# What units are so CHEESE you almost refuse to play armies with them?



## MetalHandkerchief

I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterator SPAM. (Edited for clarity) They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.

_Yet it has been brought up that the Chaos Codex is full of shit, and apparently this one thing is their only glimmer of hope and I should just shut up but NO I will not let you beat me down!_

What's yours?


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## Stephen_Newman

I am going to throw out the obvious here.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHEESE IN 40K!

Reasons as to why is because 40K is a lot like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In other words what you consider to be an unbeatable unit with the army and units you use will easily be killed by another unit in either a different army or even a different unit within your own codex.

Just find what works. Oblits can be ID'd by any S8 weapon. If you load up on melta and can't close range thena that is your fault and problem.


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## MetalHandkerchief

Stephen_Newman said:


> I am going to throw out the obvious here.
> 
> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHEESE IN 40K!
> 
> Reasons as to why is because 40K is a lot like a game of rock-paper-scissors. In other words what you consider to be an unbeatable unit with the army and units you use will easily be killed by another unit in either a different army or even a different unit within your own codex.
> 
> Just find what works. Oblits can be ID'd by any S8 weapon. If you load up on melta and can't close range thena that is your fault and problem.


Wow.

How does the fact that 'there are things to counter X' justify that X is about 100 points too cheap for what it does?

A SINGLE Obliterator is about as good as ONE Broadside, a Broadside costs TWICE as much and Obliterators can DEEP STRIKE and be fielded in 5 MAN DERP STRIKING UNITS.

Logic man.


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## D-A-C

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterators. They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.
> 
> What's yours?


Are you insane?

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

You refuse to play against armies that include Obliterators?

A unit that can be torrented AND instant killed.

They aren't exactly cheap at 75pts a pop, unlike say Hive Guard, which are 50pts each, Toughness 6, 2 wounds, BS 4, have a strength 8 Assault 2 gun that can fire INDIRECTLY!!!

Or how about the Toughness 6, WOUND 6, 3+ save toting MC that can spawn scoring units each turn, oh and count as scoring himself .... Mr Tervigon?

Or how about most of the Blood Angels stuff, cheaper devastators, fast vehicles, Baal Predators, some psychic powers, etc?

So basically, you won't fight against one of the weakest codices in terms of overall competitiveness if they take probably the one unit in the entire codex that is good in any given situation.

Now, everyone who knows me here at Heresy, knows that I'm a pure fluff player and hate any form of 'competitive' gaming, but your comment is just completely stupid.

So my question for you is, are you being serious or are you just trying to stir up stuff online?


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## lastdaysofhumanity

Obliterators are max 3 per unit. Also, there's no way you can claim that a lascannon is as good as a tl-railgun...
If they're closing to use meltas they're vulnerable to cc, enemy melts, etc..

Know your own strengths and your enemies weaknesses and you'll go a lot farther than refusing to play against anything you don't know how to beat!


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## misinformed

I personally think that since it is not possible to balance two codexs together, that the only fair way is to fight yourself in ever fight. Even then, I find myself yelling cheese every time my Cattachans fight my Cadians... 

Okay, so obviously I am kidding. I just try to remember that every unit I see that seems unbalanced, there is likely a hindrance to that unit or the army as a whole that the player is having to accommodate. For example, one army might be capable of fielding tons of amazing CC units, but the shooting style cost more or may have range issues or whatever. It helps me enjoy the game.

That all being said, the cheesiest unit (since you did ask) is the... hmm, I am gonna think on this an edit in my choice later. EDIT: Chose Kroot... lol


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## MetalHandkerchief

D-A-C said:


> You refuse to play against armies that include Obliterators?


I said 'almost'. Important to note. I will however hate every second of seeing such cheese, refer to XV88 comparison for just cause.


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## D-A-C

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I said 'almost'. Important to note. I will however hate every second of seeing such cheese, refer to XV88 comparison for just cause.


Your comparing an Obliterator to an XV88?

Why?

Whoop dee doo, one is (arguably) better than the other, because you have taken into account nothing else, such as tactics, terrain, opponent, complimentary units/list etc.

You know what, a Swarmlord is better than an Etheral and Mephiston is better than a Tau Crises Suit Commander .... so what?


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## misinformed

I highly doubt that he is trying to stir up the forum. That being said, I agree that he is being overly whiny about one unit. Basically, it is a unit that is well equipped to handle the Tau and he hasn't figured out how to handle them. Last time I fought Obliterators, I dropped a Str 10 AP 2 large template on them, then had plasma cannons and lascannons clean up any survivors (fortunately, there weren't any and I continued on). 

Now, that being said, I have had several times where an opponent brought something that I had no clue as to how to handle it. Eventually, I worked it out every time. That isn't cheese though. That is your opponent being smart enough to bring a unit that will disrupt/dismantle his opponent. Also, you wouldn't bring them against every army. For example, what would be the point of bringing Obliterators against Orks... Unless they knew that Ork player was planning on bringing Stompas and Battle Wagons lol.

*All that being said (again!), we have gone off topic a bit... He was making another thread for people to vent about which units they personally find cheesy and why. We don't need to be slamming his selection and what have you. * I will select the Kroot.


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## MetalHandkerchief

How self righteous people get over something like this is pure /boggle. If you're really Ghandi incarnated and don't get even a slight twinge of reduced fighting spirit against as much as one unit in a game of thousands... Grats, you're a saint, a model opponent, a true sporting gentleman... More importantly, you should have left this thread alone as it is clearly not for you.


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## ohiocat110

I would expect allied Inquisitors/Mystics to go away in the new GK (or Whatever) codex. I like the concept of Inquisition allies, but being able to bring such powerful anti-deepstrike capability into Marine and IG lists is unbalancing. I don't have a problem with them within their own Codex though.

As a Nid player, I'm jealous of the super cheap transports and wickedly powerful ICs with invulnerable saves that Marines get. I wouldn't really call individual units cheesy though. Nids get a lot of stuff that they don't get, like T6 W6 MCs that can shrug off melta hits. 

Certain builds look cheesy to certain armies, but I have yet to see the ultimate all-comers list. Closest is probably the infamous "Leafblower", but make it strict 40K instead of the Imperial Armor units and it becomes more pedestrian. That's also a lot of the motivation for wanting to do away with allied Mystics, as countering deepstrike takes away a lot of the weaknesses of the IG codex.


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## Azezel

Obliterators seem fine to me. They are scary and effective, but nothing to take offence at.

The OP's point still stands though, there certainly are some units (or combinations of units) that are just unsporting. F'rex I could field three Exorcists, but I don't because I'm a gentleman. I don't know what it was like in 3e but today the Exorcist is simply too cheap for what it can do.

Most things in the Space Wolf codex seem under-priced - they are certainly cheaper than vanilla Marines for no real downside (Long Fangs units are smaller than Devestator units, so have fewer ablative wounds, but it's hardly a sufficient handicap to justify the price) and then there's the Vendetta...

I grant my army doesn't have a 5e Codex, but if the Vendetta were in my codex for 200 points, I'd still field it and call it a bargain - I suspect I'm not alone.

I think most Guard players would agree that it's too good for its points.


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## lastdaysofhumanity

MetalHandkerchief said:


> How self righteous people get over something like this is pure /boggle. If you're really Ghandi incarnated and don't get even a slight twinge of reduced fighting spirit against as much as one unit in a game of thousands... Grats, you're a saint, a model opponent, a true sporting gentleman... More importantly, you should have left this thread alone as it is clearly not for you.


Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..

Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.

And you're wondering why you raised hackles?

You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".



On topic, I nominate SM librarians as the unit that annoys me most to play against. Stupid null zone psychic hood superflamer BS.


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## Djinn24

Wanna talk about cheese, talk about 3rd edition eldar that cold field 30 wraithguard and 3 wraithlords at 1500 or jet bikes that you could not shoot but shot the hell out of you.

And it is impossible to judge one dex from another and here is why:

The Nids dex and CSM dex may have identical statlines, but in the nid dex it is 25 points more. OMFGHAX why? Because the character with that statline may not fit the overall flavor of the army so there is a penalty accessed. Oblits are not broke IMHO, but they maybe in yours. That is your right to say that.

To the people who wanna act like an inflamed hemeroid, the moment he started to "stir up shit" was the exact moment folks decided to break this down to name calling. In the wise words of Jezlad, chill the fuck out.


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## MetalHandkerchief

lastdaysofhumanity said:


> Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..
> 
> Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.
> 
> And you're wondering why you raised hackles?
> 
> You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".
> 
> 
> 
> On topic, I nominate SM librarians as the unit that annoys me most to play against. Stupid null zone psychic hood superflamer BS.


Well maybe my wording was poorly chosen, in combination with less perception from the readers (as clearly you have already put me in a booth with these 'whiners' when in fact there are few ways to word it more pleasing)

Anyway, when I face Obliterators, it's Obliterator SPAM. Which is probably why they sicken me to the teeth. I am by no means a bad player, I am actually one of the people-to-playtest-against over here, but I'm not unsporting either.

The things Oblits seem to be able to do against any of my often fielded armies and the array of responses to them is just insane. The point cost is way skewed.

The fact that the rest of the Chaos codex is a bit sub par doesn't really change that. This is about unit balance, not codex balance.

I have a friend who likes spamming Librarians and Vindicators. I'd rather play him any day. Although his tactics are equal, the units are not.


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## DeathKlokk

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.


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## D-A-C

lastdaysofhumanity said:


> Well, see, that's not what you posted about. You were asking for people to vent about "imbalanced" and "cheesy" units that people "almost refuse" (whatever that means) to play against, and combined it with a rant where you lambasted people who run the (arguably) only good chaos heavy support choice as being "beardy" and "waac"..
> 
> Your attitude annoys a lot of people because it's common among bad players who whine when their opponents use tactics they don't know how to beat instead of learning how to play. This type of player is known as a "scrub". I don't know whether you're a scrub, but you have a lot of the same complaints that they do.
> 
> And you're wondering why you raised hackles?
> 
> You'd probably have gotten a better reception if you asked about what enemy units people find annoying or frustrating, rather than what they "almost refuse to play against".


Even though I said I wouldn't post again (I've calmed down), I just want to say, maybe I did go a little overboard and I don't want a rep as being an asshole.

In saying that LastDaysOfHumanity made me realise exactly what pissed me off so much about the OP. (So +rep for you).

1. You might have added the word 'almost', but you also included 'refused to play against', and your reason for doing so was your opponent taking a particular unit, not just spamming the shit out of that unit at the expense of all other choices.

2. You picked on CSM's, I mean seriously, there have been a number of threads lately that attack our codex one way or another and after numerous times defending the codex as 'not as bad as everyone makes out', you came along and trashed the one truly unique and all-round decent unit we have.

3. You accused people who take the unit as being 'Beardy' and/or WAAC, when to be honest, given the newer codices available, you really had loads of things to choose to hate on, but you chose us Chaos players, who lets be honest are in a bad way with our armies, with no sign of things getting better.

Anyway.

Getting back on track, and with a little modification on the original question.

Units I hate to see spammed in an army are:

In my home Codex (Chaos Space Marines)

Daemon Princes ((especially Lash)
Plague Marines
Obliterators

In other codices

Hive Guard
Baal Predators
Blood Angels Assault Marines withouth Jet Packs
Blood Angels Razorbacks
Tzeentch Chariots in the Daemon Codex

Basically any unit where people have determined that is the only viable unit in the entire slot such as Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc, and then proceed to spam it.

So like I said, sorry about being a dick, but the way you posed this topic did/does piss me off.


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## Stephen_Newman

But then again why the fuck do you not hide in cover. There is no unbeatable unit out there. There are some which seem OP or what-have you but they all have severe weaknesses that you must be intelligent enough to exploit. For example oblits crap themselves when facing lascannons or any other weapon S8 and above.

Heck my current army packs in 5 lascannons (3 of which are twin linked) and 8 missile launchers in 1500 points. They would laugh at obliterators.


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## Djinn24

Cheesy = Wraithlord "what do you mean I used to have armor values and caused psykers heads to explode when I died?" And that is my home dex and yes I play them, normally 2 in my Iyanden force. Nothing says fun like putting down 40 guard and smilling at your opponent. But TBH it sucks in capture objective missions where hoard armies have better luck but in VP I will normally win just because my stuff is a PITA to kill.










Yes there is reason Iyanden are yellow, its the color of cheese!


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## MetalHandkerchief

Tau has the seeker missile and the rail gun. The prior is something you don't use in throngs as it's inefficient, and the latter should be making holes in tanks.

Space marines have Vindicators, and I won't stoop to spamming Vindicators to combat Obliterator spam aka. be as 'bad' as them

Tyranids have... Zoanthropes? A unit not widely used by functioning individuals (I think, a bit rusty on the new 'dex)

But yeah, I'll edit the OP.

EDIT: Anyway, Chaos has the Demon Prince and Zerkers, none of which are bad or even average. They're rather good IMO.


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## darkreever

For me, there is no unit my opponent can field that would make me even consider refusing to play. I've been playing a long time, if theres something I can't deal with then maybe its time I sit the fuck down and figure out some ways to improve rather than whinge and complain. Why waste my time when there are more productive things to be done?

Now there are units I do not like fighting, and thats a given. Some units are harder to kill than others, some units screw up your plans. Its easier to fight a list without those pain in the ass units, but I am not going to be the prick who refuses to play, or begrudgingly plays (because if I'm doing this than I am intentionally making myself miserable and now I have no one to blame but myself; and why the fuck would I want to make myself miserable anyway?)

Gonna have to edit in my top three picks on units I do not like fighting.


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## MetalHandkerchief

darkreever said:


> For me, there is no unit my opponent can field that would make me even consider refusing to play. I've been playing a long time, if theres something I can't deal with then maybe its time I sit the fuck down and figure out some ways to improve rather than whinge and complain. Why waste my time when there are more productive things to be done?
> 
> Now there are units I do not like fighting, and thats a given. Some units are harder to kill than others, some units screw up your plans. Its easier to fight a list without those pain in the ass units, but I am not going to be the prick who refuses to play, or begrudgingly plays (because if I'm doing this than I am intentionally making myself miserable and now I have no one to blame but myself; and why the fuck would I want to make myself miserable anyway?)
> 
> Gonna have to edit in my top three picks on units I do not like fighting.


Well, grats on the most level headed post here. And I'm no spring chicken, I started this game 17 years ago at the age of 7. But Obliterators are the first and only unit to truly set my blood in a boil. To me, they are fundamentally broken. I don't get why noone sees that, but hey, that's just how these things work.

I for one don't get why so many hate pickles. Pickles are great. I do however hate Coca Cola and lots of people love that stuff.

Perception.

I do not however believe for a second everyone is the saint they make themselves out to be. I've always taken pride in sportsmanship, but being honest on a forum shouldn't be cause for riot. I don't get it. It's not like I sit down and grump for the duration of a match against chaos obliterator spam, I make sure both parties have a good time playing, I just feel the need to vent it, having to 'put up' with what to me is extremely bad unit design.

Whatever.


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## Winterous

MetalHandkerchief said:


> A SINGLE Obliterator is about as good as ONE Broadside, a Broadside costs TWICE as much and Obliterators can DEEP STRIKE and be fielded in 5 MAN DERP STRIKING UNITS.
> 
> Logic man.


A SINGLE Obliterator is much more versatile, but significantly less powerful than ONE Broadside, a Broadside costs FIVE POINTS LESS than Obliterators, and Obliterators have DIFFEREING ABILITIES to Broadsides, and have a maximum unit size of 3.

Reading the fucking rules, man.
Maybe you should try it some time.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Tau has the seeker missile and the rail gun. The prior is something you don't use in throngs as it's inefficient, and the latter should be making holes in tanks.


It can blow holes in tanks from 72 fucking inches away, whereas the best an Obliterator can do is 48" with a non-TL, significantly less powerful gun; or be up in the enemy's face with his MM or TL-MG, and risk being engaged in melee.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Space marines have Vindicators, and I won't stoop to spamming Vindicators to combat Obliterator spam aka. be as 'bad' as them


Vindicators are cheap for what they do, but that doesn't make them cheese.
Hell, taking 3 of them isn't even necessarily a good idea all the time; they're side armour 11, they die quite easily if you aren't careful with them.
Compare it to the equivalent 7 Tactical Marines, a much harder to kill (used correctly), Scoring unit which cannot be killed by a single shot, but is comparatively lacking in raw power.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Tyranids have... Zoanthropes? A unit not widely used by functioning individuals (I think, a bit rusty on the new 'dex)


Easily shut down by psychic defences, but very powerful when let to roam free.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> EDIT: Anyway, Chaos has the Demon Prince and Zerkers, none of which are bad or even average. They're rather good IMO.


Neither of which are cheesy.
Princes are cheap for what they do, but ultimately aren't actually hard to kill, and get rather expensive when kitted out.
Berzerkers are powerful melee units, but they're expensive for how fragile they are, and are easy enough to simply prevent from getting to you.


You are wrong, you really are; you've shown yourself to be a very poor sportsman who simply can't accept basic and reasonable parts of the game.
And if you are going to continue refusing to grow as a person, you should just go play games against yourself, where you can decide the rules to play by.


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## MetalHandkerchief

Wow. Just wow. You guys are great. Such a fantastic community. Whatever. Could a mod lock this topic or something and I'll fuck off from this place now. I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.


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## LukeValantine

Got to say no unit is really a game breaker, they only become so when you spam enough of one type of unit till its damn hard for a balanced list to deal with them. For instance making the army so fast that gun line only get 1 shot at it, or spamming su much armor that the enemy can only reliably kill 1-2 units of yours a turn.


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## ChugginDatHaterade

Obliterators really arent that bad. SHoot them with ap2 S8 or higher weaponry. Simple. Lash chaos in general is overrated and average. I cant remember the last time I ever lost to it.


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## darkreever

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Stuff + fuck a couple times


Now unless my eyes deceive me, you have fuck three times to Winterous's one. Bit of a math and logic fail in that regard; unless you actually meant you wanted to say it more times than Winterous in which case you did not fail.


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## mynameisgrax

Jeese guys, lighten up. He just asked what kind of armies you don't like playing against. Personally, I don't like Lash lists or Imperial Guard lists with lots of allied Daemonhunters.

I hate Lash because many armies have no way to counter it, and it encourages players to put everything in a vehicle, which makes the game less interesting, in my opinion.

I don't like allied Daemonhunters because it makes one of the most powerful and versatile armies in the game (possibly THE most powerful) even more versatile. I wouldn't mind so much if they didn't always take the same things: a terminator HQ w/retinue, inquisitors loaded up with mystics, and Emperor's tarot. I see it so often in IG lists, I'm sick of playing against them.


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## Hurricane

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Wow. Just wow. You guys are great. Such a fantastic community. Whatever. Could a mod lock this topic or something and I'll fuck off from this place now. I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.


Um...posting hyperbolic rants with little actual evidence to your claim is bound to get the topic thrown back in your face by other players. As this is about the most optimal unit in the Chaos codex (which is in a bad spot right now), it really should come as no surprise that you will be getting crap for it. 

In my opinion, oblits are certainly powerful and very point-efficient, however they do have glaring weaknesses such as their high point cost, vulnerability to instant death/large amounts of small arms fire, and melee weakness. Cheese is just a word brought up by players who refuse to adapt to new (or old) threats, believe fluffy armies are the only way in which the game should be played, etc.

As stated previously, maybe if you had worded the OP to ask what units you despise playing against, instead of outright refusing to play against (or almost refusing...whatever), you would have gotten a much calmer reaction from other forum members. In any case, the units I know will give me a challenge when I see them on the opposing list are...

1. LF missile launcher spam - I play a fairly balanced list but the amount of kraks thrown at my monstrous creatures really ruins their day.

2. JotWW - Another space wolves thing seemingly meant to rip a new hold in my MC's. I usually bring a couple of big swarms of little bugs however to swamp enemy infantry and try to prevent this asap.

3. DE venom spam - The sheer amount of poison shots they can put out per turn is sickening!

4. Static gunlines - I understand this is an entire playstyle that many enjoy but I just find it boring to play against. For the most part, my opponent just sits on his ass and shoots every turn which I just find to be incredibly boring. I usually try to take a balanced list of ranged anti-tank support backing up a primarily cc oriented army but being shredded by an IG parking lot is just no fun at all.

Even though I may not really care to face any of the above things, I will never refuse a challenge. It just means I have to work a little harder to eek out a victory.


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## ohiocat110

Sasha Nein said:


> 1. LF missile launcher spam - I play a fairly balanced list but the amount of kraks thrown at my monstrous creatures really ruins their day.
> 
> 2. JotWW - Another space wolves thing seemingly meant to rip a new hold in my MC's. I usually bring a couple of big swarms of little bugs however to swamp enemy infantry and try to prevent this asap.


Yeah, this and what Azezel said raise suspicions about Space Wolves being given preferential treatment. Even Blood Angels with their seemingly endless list of powers do have some drawbacks. SW are built to spam everything needed to excel in the 5th ed meta, and without much of a point penalty. 

Still it's not like SW are winning every tournament out there, and they don't have any flagrantly cheesy units. The real drawback I think is that they damage the metagame in pushing every army toward similar build types.


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## D-A-C

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Wow. Just wow. You guys are great. Such a fantastic community. Whatever. Could a mod lock this topic or something and I'll fuck off from this place now. I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.


First off I just want to point out that I apologised for getting a little hot headed. Although I still somehow recieved -rep from someone other than the OP ... so thanks.

But you know what, for a thread that was starting to get back on track you really have just derailled it yourself.

Not to heap sh*t on you, but myself and others did accuse you of being childish for refusing to play against certain units, then you cleared up that this was a mistake and you meant spamming units (which I can agree with as sucking), but then you go ahead and act childish again.

Winterous was actually making valid counter arguments against your assertion that Obliterators were broken (they aren't), and he barely attacked you personally, more in the spirit of guys being guys, basically ... suck it up!!!

But like I said, then you throw a temper tantrum again.

At Heresy we are actually IMO the best 40k Community around on the entire internet. But we are also adults, and we can and do enjoy throwing the odd grown-up insult out there when someone whines unncessarily about units being 'broken' and that you will 'not play against them' because
you don't like them. Your profile says your 24.

Grow up.

Like I said Heresy is a really kick-ass place, if your not happy with it, why not stick around and try and change some of the attitudes you hate, cause that's what I do (I'm looking at you competitive gamers) or if you don't like it, why not go visit dakka dakka or somehwhere else?

But let me tell you, they won't like your whining either.

Like I said, I'm not attacking YOU, I'm attacking the way you express your opinions and also the way you carry yourself online.


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## mynameisgrax

Space Wolves aren't cheesy as much as they are 'undercosted' or in other words, 'made for spamming'. It's a shame, as it doesn't really match the fluff of the army. 

The only unit/power they have that's really cheesy is 'jaws of the world wolf', especially when facing Tyranids or Orks (to snipe powerklaws/bosspoles), but mainly only because the power can be used from within a vehicle. It wouldn't be as imbalanced if the rune priest had to leave the vehicle to use it.


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## IntereoVivo

@MetalHandkerchief, you'll have better luck just ignoring the trolls.

I take it you play a lot of CSM? My playgroup has a lot of Mech and it annoys me to no end. Be it Mechdar or Razorspam, my DE just heave a sigh every time they hit the field. I then proceed to break my enemy's cans open and eat their hearts.

One of the reasons I love this game so much is this so called "cheese". I am in the same camp as DeathKlokk. It is all about being prepared. So much this game has to do with HOW you play, not WHAT you play that it defies the idea of cheese.

That said, I still hate Lash Whips with a deep and burning passion. Freakin' Hive Tyrant and Guard....


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## Winterous

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.


Apart from the underlined part (which is just amusingly inaccurate), I would +rep you for that hilarious line, if I could, since i already -repped you.
Very funny, I liked it a lot :laugh:
Anyway, DAC is a champion, you should listen to him.

Anyway, as Sasha Nein said, cheese doesn't exist.
Well, it does, on the moon, obviously; but as a game term it is false.
Nothing is cheese, some lists are uninteresting, or perhaps rather difficult for an all-comers list to deal with (all-comers being the standard, sensible kind of list), but nothing is cheesy, everything has a downside.


----------



## Sethis

To ignore the whole flame-war thing...

I hate playing ML spam armies (because they ruin both of my armies day), and more or less any version of Space Wolves (which are so stupidly undercosted it's just not funny).

Needless to say I hate playing LF-spam SW the most! :laugh: However I will never refuse to play anyone, I'll just accept that they're the one thing I don't have an amazingly efficient answer to and try to force a draw as best I can. It does, however, make me a better player, as I am forced to think a lot more about what units I can and cannot afford to commit in the face of that firepower.

Edit: Oh, and Manticores. Fucking Manticores. Plural.


----------



## D-A-C

Lol I love how the OP asked for this thread to be locked 'because of F*CKING WORDS IN HIS FACE' (damn you Oxford dictionary, damn you to hell!!!), yet still people are trying to carry on as if nothing happened.

RANT RANT RANT RANT

FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME

WAR WAR WAR WAR

"I don't like unit X because ...."

KILL KILL KILL KILL

DIE DIE DIE DIE 

It's like there has been a horrible crime, but everyone is too polite to comment on what has happened, so they awkwardly carry on the conversation anyway.

Lol.

:biggrin:


----------



## Sethis

I reject your simile and substitute my own! :laugh:

It's more like some people sitting in a cafe having a chat while extremely loud road works are going on outside. The conversation is interesting enough... the bits you can hear over the sound of jackhammers, anyway.


----------



## IntereoVivo

Sethis said:


> I reject your simile and substitute my own! :laugh:
> 
> It's more like some people sitting in a cafe having a chat while extremely loud road works are going on outside. The conversation is interesting enough... the bits you can hear over the sound of jackhammers, anyway.


Exactly. 

And while we're on the subject, I think it is interesting to note that what makes a unit really annoying is numbers. One squad of LF is annoying, but three squads and it is a headache.

Same goes for any unit you can think of really.


----------



## Azkaellon

IntereoVivo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And while we're on the subject, I think it is interesting to note that what makes a unit really annoying is numbers. One squad of LF is annoying, but three squads and it is a headache.
> 
> Same goes for any unit you can think of really.


Try playing a 1000pt game against pure troop guard with las-cannons, and the most annoying set up possible........I Freaking hate guard.....


----------



## the-ad-man

what i hate to play?

deamons.... well i hate them in the same way people hate capt. hook (peter pan) love to hate them 

its a brilliant 'oh fuck oh fuck!!' army.


----------



## D-A-C

the-ad-man said:


> what i hate to play?
> 
> deamons.... well i hate them in the same way people hate capt. hook (peter pan) love to hate them
> 
> its a brilliant 'oh fuck oh fuck!!' army.


HOW DARE YOU !!!!! (Points finger accusingly ... is that word?)

It is a privilage and an honour to die by the hand of Chaos Daemons.

They are awesomeness incarnate, whilst you are nothing but fodder for the Dark Gods!!!!

Seriously though, deepstriking ontop of the enemy is fun, it's just a shame we mishap and are affected by things such as Master of the Fleet WTF?

But landing that Bloodthirster perfectly, or power weapon toting troop choices all with invulnerable saves and eternal warrior is fun.


----------



## ohiocat110

mynameisgrax said:


> Space Wolves aren't cheesy as much as they are 'undercosted' or in other words, 'made for spamming'. It's a shame, as it doesn't really match the fluff of the army.
> 
> The only unit/power they have that's really cheesy is 'jaws of the world wolf', especially when facing Tyranids or Orks (to snipe powerklaws/bosspoles), but mainly only because the power can be used from within a vehicle. It wouldn't be as imbalanced if the rune priest had to leave the vehicle to use it.


Yeah, JOTWW hits Nids particularly hard but it's tough to complain too much about since it's near useless against fast armies. 

I (and a lot of Nid players) are peeved about the psyker transport rules though and rightly so I think. Why should psychic hoods and powers be able to work out of transports, but our powers not be able to go in? (Shadow of the Warp, Spirit Leach, etc). I'd like to see that fixed in 6th ed. I don't even care if it's all or nothing either way, just make it consistent.


----------



## 5tonsledge

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I almost refuse to play against armies with Obliterator SPAM. (Edited for clarity) They are to me the incarnation of beardy cheese beardyness, and to think some people would use something that broken tells me they are win-at-all-cost people, because I seriously would be so guilt-stricken if fielding such an army I would ask my opponent if I could nerf them before playing.
> 
> _Yet it has been brought up that the Chaos Codex is full of shit, and apparently this one thing is their only glimmer of hope and I should just shut up but NO I will not let you beat me down!_
> 
> What's yours?


Wow sounds like someone just got his ass beat by a oblit spam player. Dude quit crying Oblits arent that awesome that you cant possibly figure a way to kill them. I as a chaos player who has ran an oblit spam list know that its is completly possible to defeat such list. Whine a little longer and then when you feel like growing up sit down and design a list to kill a oblit spam player. My advice is take S8 weapons and spam shot them. Oblits have a 5+ save or they get instant killed.
But to answer your post I really dont think there is that many cheesy units in the game. When i first started playing i was a weak strategist and thought other armies had cheesy stuff, but the truth is i just sucked. When you get more playing experience you begin to find ways to work around units. 
My most hated unit to face is an Eldar seer consol on bikes with a far seer with fortune. Thats a mouth full of prison rape in one unit. But all you have to do is send something into the unit like a daemon prince with MoS and attack the far seer. sure its a suicide mission, but after its dead you can whipe the squad out no problem.


----------



## Azkaellon

D-A-C said:


> HOW DARE YOU !!!!! (Points finger accusingly ... is that word?)
> 
> It is a privilage and an honour to die by the hand of Chaos Daemons.
> 
> They are awesomeness incarnate, whilst you are nothing but fodder for the Dark Gods!!!!
> 
> Seriously though, deepstriking ontop of the enemy is fun, it's just a shame we mishap and are affected by things such as Master of the Fleet WTF?
> 
> But landing that Bloodthirster perfectly, or power weapon toting troop choices all with invulnerable saves and eternal warrior is fun.


It is? i have never had it happen.....I find daemons to pretty much suck =/ plus they can't catch any of my armys ^^ "hereee demons thats right chase the jump packs or Falcons" Anyhow i fail to see why everyone says daemons are good....Blood Angels beat them in close combat and Eldar Rip them apart with physic powers or Speed.


----------



## Baltar

Units I find to be coated in pure and absolute cheese, which I frakking hate playing against, in no particular order:

1: Long Fangs. Don't care (at ALL - so don't reply with a defence, as it will be ignored) what anyone says, they are cheese infested bullshit, way against SW fluff, too cheap, and can be spammed. Basically, they make an already ridiculously good codex slightly annoying to play against if you have a player that will take loads of LF - and anyone with a brain would take loads of them. I have literally never played a game against SW where the LF havn't killed LOADS of stuff. They aren't hard to kill, but they put out a terrific amount of firepower with no effort at all, right from turn one. Cheese bullshit from GW who wish to placate SW fans who wish to make the codex conceive their children.

2: And I can't believe nobody has mentioned it yet - Squads of 30 ork boys with a Nob and Power Claw. Bam. Costs NOTHING, kills EVERYTHING. It is NOT cheese, like the above, because it fits PERFECTLY into the fluff (for me, cheese is something totally out of fluff that is super good - which this isn't). However, any ork player that just floods green men onto the board does make me wonder if I want the ballache of having to kill a billion orks. Mainly because it's not easy.

3: A choice from my army - The Sanguinor - Bloody hell. I have used it twice so far (because it's so expensive) and it killed way too much. I guess it costs alot, so it's probably not that cheesy, but I wouldn't want to fight it.

EDIT:

4: Totally forgot to mention - anyone trying to ally SM and SOB, and then take Vulkan Hestaan, can, without any word of question, fuck right off. Just no. No.


----------



## 5tonsledge

lol daemons are only good depending on what gets in that turn and how much of it. lol one guy i played i killed everything that came in the turn it arrived from deep striking. he was furious and actual had to go out side and yell smoke a bowl in his car to relax.


----------



## comrade

Though, yes, I will have to agree with many posters here about 40k and cheese, 

You want cheese? Play fantasy and play against Dwarf Organ gun spam, or High Elf Teclis Bull shit.

40k has nothing that bad.... or maybe its because cheese doesn't affect me in 40k.... when I'm running 30 man blob squads with commissars making them stubborn ld 9 re roll able.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Ok there is one type of army I wont play against. I wont call it cheese, because the list style sucks. Its fucking horde armies. If you have 150+ models on the table you arent fun to play against. Your army is stupid simple both to play as and against, it takes forever. I dont like movement phases that last as long as my turn. The assault phase is worse. Its just bad bad bad. /rant off


----------



## 5tonsledge

lol i love playing against horde armies because i love making fun of the player who has to move all of that shit each turn. Its like jesus how fucking retarded do you feel right now moving 200 gaunts who wont even get closer than 24 inches of my 60 noise marines with 9 sonic blasters and a blast master. If you are going to spam something at least make it hard to kill.


----------



## Hurricane

Who would field full sized Tyranid troop choices without giving them at least FNP? I love fielding two large groups of either hgaunts or genestealers with two tervigons to give each of them FNP.


----------



## ohiocat110

Baltar said:


> 4: Totally forgot to mention - anyone trying to ally SM and SOB, and then take Vulkan Hestaan, can, without any word of question, fuck right off. Just no. No.


That would be wrong. Awesomely, gloriously, wrong. :shok:


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

> Who would field full sized Tyranid troop choices without giving them at least FNP?


Why the hell would you field 60 noise marines is what im wondering?


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I really don't get the whole beardy/cheesey/spam debate. If it's codex legal I don't see a problem with someone exploiting the very best options available. However, I do hate the power gamers. I know, there seems to be little distinction, but for me the biggest is the attitude. Somebody may max out their army, but take it on the chin when they loose anyway. The dicks who start whining after their superduper IC or much favoured match winning unit get handed their asses after suffering 60+ attacks from a unit of blood claws in turn 2, they are the childish assholes I hate.

I personally am a fluff player, but I still use LFs with MLs. While I don't max them out, there will be 2 or 3 in there. What's not fluffy? They are the seasoned, level headed veterans who rain death from afar, and if they deem multiple MLs as the best tool for the job, who can argue? If they spammed plasma cannons or MMs would that make it better?

All in all, there are no individual units I hate playing against and would cause me to _nearly_ refuse to play, but there are certain types of players I would refuse to play a second time. I play to enjoy the game with like minded individuals, not listen to whiney dicks who can't take losing.


----------



## Azkaellon

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Why the hell would you field 60 noise marines is what im wondering?


Because you can and it would be funny as hell?:shok:


----------



## 5tonsledge

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Why the hell would you field 60 noise marines is what im wondering?


2 shots assualt at 24 inch range 3 shot heavy. with intiative 5 and a blastmaster that is s8 ap3 heavy or 2 s5 ap4assualt is why somebody would take 60 noise marines against tyranid. And the funny thing is, it rapes almost any army because try making that many saves from a shooting and assualt phase where i go first almost every time and still be able to do enough damage back to me if you managed to keep someone alive. its just not possible. Even terminators have fallen to such mass shots. i have the horde army amount of hits with less than half the amount of models. Not to mention the Doom siren option which i currently field 6 S5 ap3 template. damn thats rape. that is called power gaming my friend.
But yea it does pretty well


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

So whats the rest of your army? What keeps you from getting rolled by anyone who sits in tanks. I see its extreme effectiveness against horde lists, but they are bad anyways.


----------



## 5tonsledge

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71114&highlight=emperors+children+2500

thats the link to my current list. it works well and has only lost a couple of games due to poor strategy and bad rolls. other than that it is an affective list and absolutly shreds marine players loyal and chaos alike.


----------



## Stormbrow II

> I really don't get the whole beardy/cheesey/spam debate. If it's codex legal I don't see a problem with someone exploiting the very best options available





> The dicks who start whining after their superduper IC or much favoured match winning unit get handed their asses after suffering 60+ attacks from a unit of blood claws in turn 2, they are the childish assholes I hate.


You don't hate power gamers which are the former, but you hate whiny dicks which are the latter. There are no units/armies I refuse to play. There are people I refuse to play which are usually those who whine about my army. Whiny dicks I call them.


----------



## 5tonsledge

Stormbrow II said:


> You don't hate power gamers which are the former, but you hate whiny dicks which are the latter. There are no units/armies I refuse to play. There are people I refuse to play which are usually those who whine about my army. Whiny dicks I call them.


i agree theres those peoples who list are really good but you still enjoy playing them because they are fun and have good personality. I hate playing dicks good or not. One guy i played was like super pissed because of lash. i keep lashing his terminator squad with storm shields and thunder hammers into dangerous terrain for 6 rounds. lol he lost 3 of 5. lol he was furious i was actually scared. it was a dick move but assualt terminators geared like that are cheese anyways so he deserved it.


----------



## bishop5

comrade said:


> You want cheese? Play fantasy and play against Dwarf Organ gun spam...


Wait... what?
As a rare choice you're only allowed a certain amount of duplicate units (as they are, well, rare)

On 40K though; Long Fangs, Vendetta's... that's about it, but I would never refuse to play against any army unless I know it was specifically written to kill the list i've bought - and even then it would depend if the pub was open or not.


----------



## comrade

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Ok there is one type of army I wont play against. I wont call it cheese, because the list style sucks. Its fucking horde armies. If you have 150+ models on the table you arent fun to play against. Your army is stupid simple both to play as and against, it takes forever. I dont like movement phases that last as long as my turn. The assault phase is worse. Its just bad bad bad. /rant off


 It brings me so much joy and happiness to beat super lists etc..

And my Sanquine Guard does this..

And I shoot 150 Lasgun shots.

Sanguine guard charges.

Never leaves CC for the rest of the game.

Such happiness.

I'm sorry you hate horde armies so much, my movement phase actually isn't that long, maybe at most 10 mins. Those people that worry about placement of thier super unit/ deathstars, and worry about cover all to much take way to long. Pansies and cover.. pssshhh


----------



## HOBO

There aren't any armies/units I dislike (hate is far too strong a word to use about a game) playing against because they all present a challenge in some way or another.
It does get annoying though when playing against Hoard lists, mainly because it takes so bloody long to get through 5 turns, let alone 7.

It's more the ilk of some opponents I dislike playing against...arrogant/waac/rules lawyering arseholes, but thankfully we weeded them out long ago. Powergamers I'm fine with so long as they're decent about it.


----------



## Jack Mac

Look, I do have a unit to suggest; the Razorwing jetfighter.
It's not a case of me refusing to play against one, it's more that I feel bad for taking one. 
-If you're not familiar with it, it's a typical DE fighter, it can move cruising speed and fire all weapons, and it can deep strike. It has two dark lances and four one shot S6 Large Blast missiles. What seems unfair to me is that it just shits all over horde armies - they don't need any more help being screwed! (Specifically, I can deep strike it and then fire all weapons - 2 or 3 missiles should do, and if it's still around next turn the others will follow)
Apart from that, I think it's well costed and designed, it just irks me that it is really strong against the 'weakest' army type.


----------



## Flindo

I'll play with anyone who offers a game, I dont play to win, I play to have fun.


----------



## Deathscythe4722

The level of RAGE in this thread is hilarious.

Every unit has a counter. Any codex is capable of winning when played right, even if some of them are boring and shitty (looking at you CSMs).

Remember kiddies: There is no cheese, only buttmad. If you insist a certain unit is cheesy, then you are just buttmad.


----------



## The Sullen One

While I don't refuse to play against lists that have 'cheesy' units, I rarely come up against them. There are however units I don't like facing because I perceive them as having too many advantages, such as TH/SS Termies, but even then they've died in combat.

However there are units I don't tend to use personally, such as KFF Big Meks, because I feel they're either cheesy or lead to cheesy ways of playing.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Somebody called my name? 

There is no such thing as "cheese" in 40k.

Some units are more efficient in points than others, but nothing is "broken".

Cheese is the warcry of the ill prepared.


----------



## Winterous

The Sullen One said:


> However there are units I don't tend to use personally, such as KFF Big Meks, because I feel they're either cheesy or lead to cheesy ways of playing.


I honestly can't understand what could possibly be considered cheesy about a KFF Big Mek.


----------



## Azwraith

lol this thread is fun.

what is cheese is my mates damn lascannons.. he like perma rolls 6's on them my landraider didnt even last turn one!!! bulldust.

but i play sm.. and i can usually handlt any situation. my army is full drop pod. so if i need range a land at range if i need cc i land cc pretty simple really. dreads in pods are fun


----------



## The Sullen One

Winterous said:


> I honestly can't understand what could possibly be considered cheesy about a KFF Big Mek.


It's the way people talk about using them, namely running the Mek in with a load of Kans and sticking a load of boyz behind, all with a 4+ cover save.

Somehow it seems unorky, plus I think it blinds people to the other stuff Big Meks can take.


----------



## Vrykolas2k

Everything can be beaten.
Even huge squads of ork nobs on bikes.


----------



## LukeValantine

I think this thread would be more productive if we adopted a more precise operational definition of cheese. To me cheese is relative to the list composition the unit placed in, but more so cheese can be defined as a deliberate attempt to max min a lists strengths to try and overwhelm your opponents list. By this definition some units are by their nature relatively balanced, and as such will never be true cheese material, that or they are just to ineffective to make a effective min max list (Everyone can deal with 40 spawn).

In summation there really isn't a single unit that can be considered cheese in themselves, but when combined with other elements in a list can become so.

Example rhino's are rarely considered spam, but when combined with cult or assault weapon span in a chaos list with 5+ rhinos you start encroaching on cheese territory.

Another example is the dreaded TH/SS termies. After all I wouldn't consider 5 of them in a land raider cheese in themselves, since any balanced list will have enough fire to take it down while avoiding CC. The damn unit is 400+-pts for 5 guys, in a single vehicle, which some units can destroy in a single tern of mediocre fire (Lances).


----------



## Stormbrow II

> i keep lashing his terminator squad with storm shields and thunder hammers into dangerous terrain for 6 rounds. lol he lost 3 of 5. lol he was furious i was actually scared. it was a dick move but assualt terminators geared like that are cheese anyways so he deserved it.


That's not cheesy, that's just using your noodle. I don't see how that can be seen to be anything other than smart playing: you indentified a threat and tried to neutralise it. Well done. Its even better when it creates luls btw.


----------



## LukeValantine

Besides he had it coming for not using a psychic hood when fighting chaos.


----------



## BrainFreeze

^ That right there...damned Psychic hood screwing up my T-sons army..


----------



## Baltar

For me, there is no unbeatable or unreasonable unit.

However, I do consider there to be such a thing as cheese. Cheese, for me, is when a unit is completely awesome, but it's also there only for that reason, and has NO fluff justification whatsoever.

Hence my choice of Long Fangs. Don't care what ANY SW fanboys say; there is absolutely no reason why a SW devastator squad should be able to split fire, where any other chapter can't. It's completely ridiculous bs, like a freshly made cheese toasty with melted cheese dripping out of the sides.

Also, hence my choice of The Sanguinor. He is lulz. GW needed an uber 275pt character for the BA 'dex, so they threw together the biggest pile of bs fluff I've ever seen, made a close-combat-monster, and said 'there ya go!'. Follows fluff? Hell no. Is it awesome, and is that why it's there? Hell yes.

People may also want to refer to things like Sly Marbo's ripper pistol, too. Why it has AP2, only the gods of cheese-on-toast-with-extra-worcester-sauce will ever know. Is it cheese? Of course. Why? 'cus there's no reason for it to have AP2 other than that it makes it awesome.

That's what cheese is, to me.

I don't particularly care when cheese is used, and I'd be sad if there was none - but let's not be assholes and try to claim that it doesn't exist. Every claim here that suggests there is no such thing is just another person identifying themselves as a massive lover of the cheese, stuffed into a crust and munched down with the rest of the double-cheese pizza.


----------



## Winterous

Baltar said:


> I don't particularly care when cheese is used, and I'd be sad if there was none - but let's not be assholes and try to claim that it doesn't exist. Every claim here that suggests there is no such thing is just another person identifying themselves as a massive lover of the cheese, stuffed into a crust and munched down with the rest of the double-cheese pizza.


............
So um, you've just CHANGED the definition of cheese, and then said "You're all assholes for claiming it doesn't exist.".
Nice, fucking nice.

Cheese, in common terminology, is something which is unreasonably good, and usually spammy.


----------



## xenobiotic

I'm not an experienced player having played but a handful amount of games. Most units I'm concerned about are either fictive (they look good on paper) or they annoy me cause I can't grasp their threat level when I do play them.

On paper a Land Raider Achilles loaded with a Techmarine + 5 servitors looks insane beyond all reason - at least if you're facing armies that relies on lance weapons to pop vehicles. But then again you could just go about your business killing the few other units that army would be made of and win anyway.

In experience I can get a grasp around the Hive Guard mostly since one of my friends apparently can't roll dices at all (couldn't pop a rhino for an entire game with 3 hive guards shooting at it) while my other friend pops all my vehicles in turn 2 with the same amount of Hive Guards. Are they cheesy? I wouldn't say. I just need to get better options painted so I have something to counter them with.


----------



## Stella Cadente

oblit spam
nob bike spam
monolith spam
actually...anything spam

not because there hard to beat, but because usually the people who use armies like that are cunts of the highest caliber and not worth wasting time on, only thing worse than cheese is a cheesy cunt WAAC SPAM player.


----------



## Djinn24

Wow, I go to the defense of the OP and then he throws a temper tantrum my 4 year old would be proud of. Lovely.


----------



## Baltar

Winterous said:


> ............
> So um, you've just CHANGED the definition of cheese, and then said "You're all assholes for claiming it doesn't exist.".
> Nice, fucking nice.
> 
> Cheese, in common terminology, is something which is unreasonably good, and usually spammy.


What can I say; it's how I roll, brah.


----------



## jaws900

i had one spectator saying that my opponent was being chessy by having a 10 man termiantor squad????? How is that cheesey? that and Telion pinned them and killed there only non-stormbolter guy.

If you don't like to play people who love sertain unit then don't play them. My main Blood Angel army is mostly Landraiders, does that make me a cheese spammer for getting 2 in a 1000pts list. No matter than i have only one about 1/4 of the games they play. I enjoy that army list so thats why i play it.


----------



## Winterous

jaws900 said:


> i had one spectator saying that my opponent was being chessy by having a 10 man termiantor squad????? How is that cheesey? that and Telion pinned them and killed there only non-stormbolter guy.


That's not cheesy in the slightest, the guy is just a terrible sport, and a total wanker.

Also LOL, WHAT HORRID LUCK!


----------



## jaws900

Winterous said:


> That's not cheesy in the slightest, the guy is just a terrible sport, and a total wanker.
> 
> Also LOL, WHAT HORRID LUCK!


tell me about it. To bad i didn't keep up that luck and lost in the end with the 7 man strong unit ripping Lysander a new one after a while...but i did take out Kantor in exchange so all's fair in love and war


----------



## Vrykolas2k

Stella Cadente said:


> oblit spam
> nob bike spam
> monolith spam
> actually...anything spam
> 
> not because there hard to beat, but because usually the people who use armies like that are cunts of the highest caliber and not worth wasting time on, only thing worse than cheese is a cheesy cunt WAAC SPAM player.


Well said.
And you usually end up having to play them at tournaments.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Cheese is basically something bad kids cry when faced with something they cant beat. There are few things that are actually cheesy, and most that are are situational. Jaws of the world wolf against nids is the only thing I can really think of. 

Take stellas list of cheesy units.

oblit spam-its average, I dont think I have lost to it.
nob bike spam-Never played it, but I have fought ork armies with 2-3 nob squads in wagons. Really terrible list that hasnt been decent for years.
monolith spam-Oh wow, probably the worst necron build ever. 
actually...anything spam

I would like to elaborate on Stella's last point and explain why she is wrong. Spam armies are generally shitty gimmick builds. Us competitive players call them "noobslayers". Lists built to slaughter kids who cant handle the spam. Good players almost always do well against them. I would rather fight a spam list than a well built all comers list. 

Bad kids also confuse spam with redundancy.


----------



## Baltar

Don't know where 'nob bike spam' came from. That sort of list is utter shit.


----------



## IntereoVivo

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I would like to elaborate on Stella's last point and explain why *she* is wrong.


:laugh:

So what counts as spam? Oh, and you completely missed Stella's point. The point is that people who play spammy armies usually are not worth playing against. Not that spammy armies are good.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

> not because there hard to beat, but because usually the people who use armies like that are cunts of the highest caliber and not worth wasting time on, only thing worse than cheese is a cheesy cunt WAAC SPAM player.


I dont know why you would call people not worth playing against cunts. I feel hes the kind of competitive player who cant stand losing and compensates by crying about it.


----------



## IntereoVivo

Well, we all know Stella is a bit...aggressive in his choice of words.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Poor guy just needs a hug


----------



## Stella Cadente

IntereoVivo said:


> Oh, and you completely missed Stella's point


I think he (like everyone usually) knows he missed my point, but if you don't admit to missing it how else will you goad people into a flamefest.


ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I feel hes the kind of competitive player.


I laugh when people try to make points against you when they have no idea about you, makes people look so moronic.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

I hate stealers - they're too good for a troops choice and I play Dark Angels. I know you're supposed to shoot them, but it gets annoying when they enter from reserve because they make mincemeat out of almost all marine units...


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Stella Cadente said:


> I think he (like everyone usually) knows he missed my point, but if you don't admit to missing it how else will you goad people into a flamefest.
> 
> I laugh when people try to make points against you when they have no idea about you, makes people look so moronic.


*hugs stella*

there there, its alright


----------



## Tim/Steve

spanner94ezekiel said:


> I hate stealers - they're too good for a troops choice and I play Dark Angels. I know you're supposed to shoot them, but it gets annoying when they enter from reserve because they make mincemeat out of almost all marine units...


Just dont deploy within 18" of the board edges (and don't play on a small board against someone with lots of stealers). I do like how people hiding away from stealers normally makes them more vulnerable to my biovores... but then there aren't that many nid players who like/use the vores.


I will under no circumstances (except mebbe in a tournament) use the Doom of Malan'tai, skulltaker and the deciever (ran him a few times but then decided that he is too nasty for standard games).
Then again, its not as bad as in WFB... where Teclis is far far beyond a sensible choice. Its so bad that the word 'cheesy' doesn't quite apply.


----------



## 5tonsledge

Stella Cadente ive been on heresy for a while now and you always make interesting points and i respect you, but your avatar drives me nuts man i always feel like its taunting me. Its always looking at me and for some reason i always stare at it for a couple of minutes before i read your post. I dont know why no one elses pic bugs me just yours. This is really off topic by the way.
Anyways ive been holding that in for a while, but back on topic. Guess what im going to do to night. Oblit spam for the first time in a year. 2 reasons
1.) I just gave my Emperor's Children army to my cousin. Long story but the reason was i owed him.
2.) I fucking feel like being a prick tonight when i kick some nubs ass


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

You know what ive found 5tonesledge. When everyone runs tough armies the game is a lot more fun. If you have tough armies and weak armies butthurt ensues. There were a few guys at my lgs who used to hate competitive player. One would run nothing but khorne chaos marines. Refused to run a lash prince or oblits cause they were unfluffy or cheesy. I talked him into trying it, explaining that they werent really any cheesier than anything else. Since then he has become a much more agreeable person to game with, and comments on how much more fun he has playing the game.

Its like people in FPS games who always use the crappy weapons because they 'take more skill' and then complain when they lose to someone using a good gun. After a while they just man up and start using that same quality weapon, and have more fun.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

I dont understand how so many fucking threads on heresy turn into this idiotic "your a WAAC jackass!" "No! Your just a crying noob!" Arguments. 

I think cheese does exist, but more along the lines CDH said, its situational Jaws on nids. Mystic Guard against Daemons, etc. But I wouldnt refuse to play anything, if It eats my face then hopefully I learn and it doesn't do as well next time.


----------



## Jackinator

Doom of Malan'tai, I hate it so much.

On the other hand I wouldn't refuse to play against it cause I know how to counter it. Doesn't stop me hating it though .


----------



## Wusword77

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I dont understand how so many fucking threads on heresy turn into this idiotic "your a WAAC jackass!" "No! Your just a crying noob!" Arguments.
> 
> I think cheese does exist, but more along the lines CDH said, its situational Jaws on nids. Mystic Guard against Daemons, etc. But I wouldnt refuse to play anything, if It eats my face then hopefully I learn and it doesn't do as well next time.


A good amount of topics don't devolve into the arguments "competitive vs casual" but start out that way to begin with. This thread seemed tailor made to become one such debate, as the idea of a "cheezy" unit goes against what most "competitive" players think about the game.

I don't think cheese exists because, like KoC said:



KingOfCheese said:


> Some units are more efficient in points than others, but nothing is "broken".
> Cheese is the warcry of the ill prepared.


Units only seem cheesy because you are ill equipped to deal with what they bring to the table.

Most people who claim Vulkan is cheesy will most likely be running an army that is seriously hurt by meltas.

Jaws of the World Wolf is cheesy when you run a foot army that must get into CC.

Lash is cheesy because by Slanneshs own logic that DP should be using it on his own troops. :laugh:

Make a decent all comers list, in that you can handle anything thats thrown at you with efficiency and you'll find a good amount of the "cheese" units in the game don't seem as great anymore.


----------



## Anensenef

i got a buddy using 3 baneblades in a 2000 pt. tourny


----------



## 5tonsledge

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> You know what ive found 5tonesledge. When everyone runs tough armies the game is a lot more fun. If you have tough armies and weak armies butthurt ensues. There were a few guys at my lgs who used to hate competitive player. One would run nothing but khorne chaos marines. Refused to run a lash prince or oblits cause they were unfluffy or cheesy. I talked him into trying it, explaining that they werent really any cheesier than anything else. Since then he has become a much more agreeable person to game with, and comments on how much more fun he has playing the game.
> 
> Its like people in FPS games who always use the crappy weapons because they 'take more skill' and then complain when they lose to someone using a good gun. After a while they just man up and start using that same quality weapon, and have more fun.


what legion of chaos do you play


----------



## XxDreMisterxX

Stella.... I hatez u..... go eat some bad clam chowder and enjoy it... you silly goose you.... -_- :biggrin:

But back on topic: Landspeeders.... just ridiculous.. really.... I will slap you foo!!


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

I used to play iron warriors, but I sold my chaos when the new book came out for some more eldar.



> I got a buddy using 3 baneblades in a 2000 point tournament


Tell him I said good luck, and not to lose too badly


----------



## Winterous

Jackinator said:


> Doom of Malan'tai, I hate it so much.
> 
> On the other hand I wouldn't refuse to play against it cause I know how to counter it. Doesn't stop me hating it though .


What, you mean just have S8 weapons in any decent volume?


----------



## Sephyr

Baltar said:


> Units I find to be coated in pure and absolute cheese, which I frakking hate playing against, in no particular order:
> 
> 1: Long Fangs. Don't care (at ALL - so don't reply with a defence, as it will be ignored) what anyone says, they are cheese infested bullshit, way against SW fluff, too cheap, and can be spammed. Basically, they make an already ridiculously good codex slightly annoying to play against if you have a player that will take loads of LF - and anyone with a brain would take loads of them. I have literally never played a game against SW where the LF havn't killed LOADS of stuff. They aren't hard to kill, but they put out a terrific amount of firepower with no effort at all, right from turn one. Cheese bullshit from GW who wish to placate SW fans who wish to make the codex conceive their children.
> 
> 2: And I can't believe nobody has mentioned it yet - Squads of 30 ork boys with a Nob and Power Claw. Bam. Costs NOTHING, kills EVERYTHING. It is NOT cheese, like the above, because it fits PERFECTLY into the fluff (for me, cheese is something totally out of fluff that is super good - which this isn't). However, any ork player that just floods green men onto the board does make me wonder if I want the ballache of having to kill a billion orks. Mainly because it's not easy.
> 
> 3: A choice from my army - The Sanguinor - Bloody hell. I have used it twice so far (because it's so expensive) and it killed way too much. I guess it costs alot, so it's probably not that cheesy, but I wouldn't want to fight it.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> 4: Totally forgot to mention - anyone trying to ally SM and SOB, and then take Vulkan Hestaan, can, without any word of question, fuck right off. Just no. No.


*sniffs* Baltar, you -are- my president.


----------



## 5tonsledge

oh guys spam oblits failed tonight as i lost to a Ork player. It was my mistake though decided to make a fun list with a biker squad Mark of Nurgle and a sorceror on a bike MoN and warptime. Ill i have to say to you chaos players is never take bikes they suck dick.


----------



## Stella Cadente

another thing about these "cheese" armies I dislike is just how boring it is to play against them, since "cheese" also translates into "fun draining monotonous bullshit"

"oh you have 9 oblits and 2 lash princes*sigh* yeah this is gonna be so frigging fun to play isn't it" *headdesks at the prospect of every turn practically being the fucking same thing repeated over and over again*

you sometimes lose to forces like this because you just so depressed and bored fighting the same units every turn that you just stop giving a shit.


----------



## Serpion5

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Wow. Just wow. You guys are great. Such a fantastic community. Whatever. Could a mod lock this topic or something and I'll fuck off from this place now. I won't try and say fuck as much as Winterous here, who's dog I apparently ate for breakfast this morning since he's obviously out to get me with FUCKING WORDS IN MY FACE.


Bye bye now. You weren`t the first to ragequit, and you won`t be the last. Heresy feels a bit better already. :bye:



ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Ok there is one type of army I wont play against. I wont call it cheese, because the list style sucks. Its fucking horde armies. If you have 150+ models on the table you arent fun to play against. Your army is stupid simple both to play as and against, it takes forever. I dont like movement phases that last as long as my turn. The assault phase is worse. Its just bad bad bad. /rant off


Hordes? Nothing wrong with them. That unit of 30 hormagaunts? Charge in a sentinel or something similar. They can`t hurt it, and they probably cost more points than it. Gets me. I play nid swarm, and it`s perfectly beatable. Actually harder to run a swarm now since warriors became troops as well...



5tonsledge said:


> lol i love playing against horde armies because i love making fun of the player who has to move all of that shit each turn. Its like jesus how fucking retarded do you feel right now moving 200 gaunts who wont even get closer than 24 inches of my 60 noise marines with 9 sonic blasters and a blast master. If you are going to spam something at least make it hard to kill.


I use the WotR movement trays. Ooh, templates hurt more, so what? I`m playing for fun, and moving close to a hundred gaunts a turn ain`t fun. Horde players who don`t use the trays are suckers.



Stella Cadente said:


> oblit spam
> nob bike spam
> monolith spam
> actually...anything spam
> 
> not because there hard to beat, but because usually the people who use armies like that are cunts of the highest caliber and not worth wasting time on, only thing worse than cheese is a cheesy cunt WAAC SPAM player.


Does two liths count as spam in a 1,750 list? :biggrin:



Jackinator said:


> Doom of Malan'tai, I hate it so much.
> 
> On the other hand I wouldn't refuse to play against it cause I know how to counter it. Doesn't stop me hating it though .


I run the Doom in my list, it has yet to survive a game. It CAN pack a punch (unless your pod scatters away) but it is remarkably easy to kill. I hate psycannons.



Stella Cadente said:


> another thing about these "cheese" armies I dislike is just how boring it is to play against them, since "cheese" also translates into "fun draining monotonous bullshit"
> 
> "oh you have 9 oblits and 2 lash princes*sigh* yeah this is gonna be so frigging fun to play isn't it" *headdesks at the prospect of every turn practically being the fucking same thing repeated over and over again*
> 
> you sometimes lose to forces like this because you just so depressed and bored fighting the same units every turn that you just stop giving a shit.


I agree here. I never refust to play because of the list. (granted I refuse games against friends a lot simply because I`m sitting and couldn`t be arsed to stand up) Though I do find it hard to respect a player who completely defies the imagery and lore of his army in favour of a super competitive lists.



So, on topic at last...

I dislike any list that opposes its army`s fluff. Lash Princes allied with Khorne Berzerkers for instance. Two different chapter characters in the same army with no effort to at least attempt a counts as conversion (ie Shrike in a terminator heavy list just to make them fleet) and perhaps worst of all...

Opposing Daemon armies. I saw a list that comprised Tzeentch and Nurgle daemons. I know the new fluff says they can team up, but it was still... odd.

The fact that it beat my necrons has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Baltar

Nobody has yet mentioned anything close to being as cuntish as allying a Vulkan Hestaan SM army with a much larger SOB force, so I'm claiming the arbitrary 'I identified the most cuntish move' prize.

Okthanxbbye


----------



## DeathKlokk

> I'm claiming the arbitrary 'I identified the most cuntish move' prize.


Ghazkull Outflanking up your ass with Snikrot.

"I'd like to thank the Academy and all the little people who made this possible..."


----------



## Baltar

Nah, I've had that happen. Being a BA player I just laugh when Ghazkull comes to play.

I imagine back when that 'dex was first released, people thought that Ghazkull was really hard.

Now I just kinda laugh a bit.

It's like "ahhh... you BOTHERED to bring that overpriced HQ? Sucks to be youuuu...."


----------



## DeathKlokk

Really? huh...I must pick your brain then. I find him a real bitch-and-a-half to kill.


----------



## Winterous

Baltar said:


> Nobody has yet mentioned anything close to being as cuntish as allying a Vulkan Hestaan SM army with a much larger SOB force, so I'm claiming the arbitrary 'I identified the most cuntish move' prize.
> 
> Okthanxbbye


Well, I'm pretty sure that neither SOB or DH can ally anymore, in the PDF versions of the codex (which are the current, official version of the rules).
So that, assuming the person who told me this knows what they're talking about, isn't an issue.


----------



## Baltar

He is, but only when he's come to town with a whole bunch of mega-armoured nobs in a truck, and flies half way across the board on turn one...

The cheese is actually that the truck has some bs 'ramshackle' rule, so they all just get out and fuck you up by turn two.

But it's okay. The sanguinor deals with all problems. Green or otherwise.


----------



## Winterous

Baltar said:


> But it's okay. The sanguinor deals with all problems. Green or otherwise.


By making everyone within 6" of him fucking badass.
Not to mention being extremely badass himself.


----------



## Baltar

Winterous said:


> By making everyone within 6" of him fucking badass.
> Not to mention being extremely badass himself.


Exactly.

And while Ghazkull and his mega armoured friends are all proper badass, they also cost x-billion points, for what is essentially a glass hammer.

In addition:

30 boys with a nob and power claw scare me way more. Why?

Because you charge them with, well, whatever - sanguinor, mephy, or some other 5 man squad of ultimate badass, kill about 6 or 7 at best...

And then they turn around go, well, sucks to be you... and dish out 4,000,000,000,000 attacks and kill whatever it was that got into combat with them. That's if YOU charged. If they charged, you might aswell just remove the models from the fucking table.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure that neither SOB or DH can ally anymore, in the PDF versions of the codex (which are the current, official version of the rules).
> So that, assuming the person who told me this knows what they're talking about, isn't an issue.


they can, the PDF's are wrong, GW admitted that when released and allies are still allowed, they just couldn't be fucked to update the PDF's again and your gonna have to trawl through allot of "whats new today" posts to find it.

but basically the PDF's can only be fully utilised if you have the codex, otherwise there useless.


----------



## Baltar

I like fire.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> they can, the PDF's are wrong, GW admitted that when released and allies are still allowed, they just couldn't be fucked to update the PDF's again and your gonna have to trawl through allot of "whats new today" posts to find it.
> 
> but basically the PDF's can only be fully utilised if you have the codex, otherwise there useless.


Well, that's dumb.



Baltar said:


> I like fire.


Lovely.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Baltar said:


> I like fire.


err...yeah


Winterous said:


> Well, that's dumb.


welcome to 40k


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Serpion5 said:


> Hordes? Nothing wrong with them. That unit of 30 hormagaunts? Charge in a sentinel or something similar. They can`t hurt it, and they probably cost more points than it. Gets me. I play nid swarm, and it`s perfectly beatable. Actually harder to run a swarm now since warriors became troops as well...


I never said horde armies were hard to beat. Quite the opposite. Its both the ease of beating them and huge amount of time spent watching the other player move models and roll dice that I hate.


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

Winterous said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure that neither SOB or DH can ally anymore, in the PDF versions of the codex (which are the current, official version of the rules).
> So that, assuming the person who told me this knows what they're talking about, isn't an issue.


Whoever told you that is wrong, the paper codex is still legal. GW said so themselves.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11200008a

I had thought you couldn't have SoBs in the same army as SM ever but after looking over my C:WH apparently you can not use inducted SM in a WH army that includes Sob but you can ally SoBs with a SM army.

But trying to say Vulkan's rule effects the SoBs weapons is still pretty cheesy.

Edit: Ninj'ed by Stella but at least I found the link, although I keep it handy in case someone tries to say I can't use my C:WH


----------



## Luisjoey

Obilaterators spam???

i have one word... OUTFLANKING

assault and that´s it! 

i love obilaterators! i´m starting IRON WARRIORS because i love them! 

when 5th ed have chaos it would be AWFUL to everybody.... 

the most cheesy thing nowdays are the NIDS, nothing more and nothing else.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

You think nids are cheesey? How in the name of god do you figure that? 

I think the only times I lost to nids I had heavy AV lists, and it was this one dude's nid horde. Suffice to say I was covered in a chittering carpet.


----------



## Baltar

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> Whoever told you that is wrong, the paper codex is still legal. GW said so themselves.
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11200008a
> 
> I had thought you couldn't have SoBs in the same army as SM ever but after looking over my C:WH apparently you can not use inducted SM in a WH army that includes Sob but you can ally SoBs with a SM army.
> 
> But trying to say Vulkan's rule effects the SoBs weapons is still pretty cheesy.
> 
> Edit: Ninj'ed by Stella but at least I found the link, although I keep it handy in case someone tries to say I can't use my C:WH


There is actually nothing stopping Vulkan effecting SOB weapons, which means that it becomes sick. Completely SICK.


----------



## Tim/Steve

Luisjoey said:


> the most cheesy thing nowdays are the NIDS, nothing more and nothing else.


If you are playing on a small board (like the 4'*4' boards seen in a lot of GW stores) then nids certainly are cheesy... otherwise they aren't too bad, you just need to know how to play them (but then experience is almost always important).


----------



## Vaz

Baltar said:


> There is actually nothing stopping Vulkan effecting SOB weapons, which means that it becomes sick. Completely SICK.


The only unit to benefit from it is Dominion Squads and Retributors with Heavy Flamers, everything else, Marines have equivalents, and better.


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

Vaz said:


> The only unit to benefit from it is Dominion Squads and Retributors with Heavy Flamers, everything else, Marines have equivalents, and better.


They can't ally Retributors in cause they're Heavy support and only one Dominion Squad, so this really doesn't help them that much.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Vaz said:


> The only unit to benefit from it is Dominion Squads and Retributors with Heavy Flamers, everything else, Marines have equivalents, and better.


that and everything else that can have flame/melta weapons

and yes, marines have squads with 4 flamers that are ap1 now with re-rolls due to mr spear, there all over the place.


----------



## Baltar

Are people ACTUALLY attempting to justify taking Vulkan with SOB...?

Can what my eyes are seeing actually be believed?

Wow.

This thread just became colossally retarded.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Baltar said:


> Are people ACTUALLY attempting to justify taking Vulkan with SOB...?


there are many good reasons, there is....err...umm...........OH...no.........his ship got lost?


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Who cares if someone ran Vulkan with sisters? It could be some other marine commander on crusade with sisters, and he had his techmarines upgrade their weapons to compensate for their lack of close combat ability. 

I think if vulkan sisters were good they would have become a well known army, instead the urban myth they are now.


----------



## Stella Cadente

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I think if vulkan sisters were good they would have become a well known army, instead the urban myth they are now.


err...they are a well known army, thats why there mentioned all the time as being a bitch, they would be more well known if GW actually wanted you to buy sisters


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

I have never seen them on the table, or heard of them being played. They are well known meta wise, but nobody actually uses them. Same deal with guard heavy weapon spam, 50 heavy weapons and 400 models would be awful to fight, but you wont see it. I dont think they would be any more powerful than guard or wolves. I would almost say that vulkan sisters is weaker than either regular marines or regular sisters, but I havent tried building lists enough with them to know.


----------



## Tim/Steve

Baltar said:


> Are people ACTUALLY attempting to justify taking Vulkan with SOB...?
> 
> Can what my eyes are seeing actually be believed?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> This thread just became colossally retarded.


So your basically saying that you think the combination is too cheesy to be worthwhile playing... interesting, perhaps we might want to start a thread for that


----------



## The Sullen One

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I never said horde armies were hard to beat. Quite the opposite. Its both the ease of beating them and huge amount of time spent watching the other player move models and roll dice that I hate.


Clearly you've never played a proper horde player.


----------



## Wusword77

Baltar said:


> Are people ACTUALLY attempting to justify taking Vulkan with SOB...?
> 
> Can what my eyes are seeing actually be believed?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> This thread just became colossally retarded.


Justifying Vulkan with sisters is actually very easy, by the nature of his position he moves from planet to planet searching for the items from the Tomb of Fire.

Why can't he have enlisted the aid of the Sisters if he discovers that information he needs is being defended by heretics?

Or

What if he is on a shrine world, resupplying for his mission when it comes under attack from Orks/Nids/Chaos/Crons? He goes to aid the sisters in battle against the foes of the Emperor.

Or

A massive war effect on a planet has forces from all arms of the Imperium the Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, even a Titan. Vulkan lands planet side with information regarding the Engine of Woes and must combat against the the enemies of the Imperium before he can get to the location he needs.

Provided you were talking about justifying him fighting with the sisters from a fluff stand point. Just a couple of ideas that came to me in about 5 seconds of thinking about it.

From a gaming stand point? There is no rule preventing it in the SOB or SM codexs so why not?


----------



## Creidim

horde armies are easy are they? no wonder they aren't in tournaments hahahaha


----------



## 5tonsledge

i was under the impression that vulkans special rules couldnt apply to anything other than salamanders.
Also baltar dude suck it up man Vulkan may be cheese but he sucks dick. no eternal warrior really fucks him over. run an inquisitor with a melta pistol and then take those cheesy little powers that make it were you can make a invul save and watch vulkan die without every having a chance.


----------



## 5tonsledge

also why dont you see anybody running vulkan with 9 land speeders all armed with 2 heavy flamers each. 2 shots S5 template twinlinked. thats cheese. not to menchin scout move. what else could you possibly want.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Creidim said:


> horde armies are easy are they? no wonder they aren't in tournaments hahahaha





The Sullen One said:


> Clearly you've never played a proper horde player.


I think there are a few points to be made about why hordes are bad, and proper horde player is misleading. 

Hordes are very lacking in tactics. The most common is the close combat horde. A wave of guys trying to overwhelm you with bodies. Shooty horde is also do-able, but much less common. 

Both of these styles are extremely lacking in maneuverability. While you might have a horde of fast infantry, they cannot reposition very fast due to the sheer size of your army. I have seen ork builds that fill up a deployment zone before. The units have no side to side movement ability, simply straight forward. 

So if say horde orks runs into MSU space wolves with lots of razorbacks they generally get destroyed. The wolves can reposition faster and take the horde out piece by piece. There isnt much more I can do to explain maneuver warfare other than link people to this excellent article http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/12/tactics-destroyed-by-horde-what-do-i-do.html

So the time spent in playing the army, the lack of tactical options and flexibility, and the weakness to maneuvering all account for the lack of horde armies being particularly popular among the competitive crowd.


----------



## Baltar

Ally Vulkan and BA.

Whoa whoa whoa, sweet child of... the emperor...


----------



## gally912

5tonsledge said:


> i was under the impression that vulkans special rules couldnt apply to anything other than salamanders.
> Also baltar dude suck it up man Vulkan may be cheese but he sucks dick. no eternal warrior really fucks him over. run an inquisitor with a melta pistol and then take those cheesy little powers that make it were you can make a invul save and watch vulkan die without every having a chance.


Vulkan is the suXX0rs, yo. And his abilities only apply to salamaders, obvi duh. This guy needs his own blog, ya dig? I'd read it.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

gally912 said:


> Vulkan is the suXX0rs, yo. And his abilities only apply to salamaders, obvi duh. .


Nope, it affects all melters, multi melters, flamas, and heavy flamas in the army. If you have allied sisters in the army, they benefit.


----------



## The Sullen One

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I think there are a few points to be made about why hordes are bad, and proper horde player is misleading.
> 
> Hordes are very lacking in tactics. The most common is the close combat horde. A wave of guys trying to overwhelm you with bodies. Shooty horde is also do-able, but much less common.
> 
> Both of these styles are extremely lacking in maneuverability. While you might have a horde of fast infantry, they cannot reposition very fast due to the sheer size of your army. I have seen ork builds that fill up a deployment zone before. The units have no side to side movement ability, simply straight forward.
> 
> So if say horde orks runs into MSU space wolves with lots of razorbacks they generally get destroyed. The wolves can reposition faster and take the horde out piece by piece. There isnt much more I can do to explain maneuver warfare other than link people to this excellent article http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/12/tactics-destroyed-by-horde-what-do-i-do.html
> 
> So the time spent in playing the army, the lack of tactical options and flexibility, and the weakness to maneuvering all account for the lack of horde armies being particularly popular among the competitive crowd.


True, hordes aren't exactly flexible in terms of manuvering and tactics, but nonetheless they remain quite competitve. Orks for example can take Lootas in their list, giving them a great unit to counter transports and light infantry. Burnas in combat have powerweapons, which makes them another deadly addition.

As for the missile spam Space Wolves, well they're a threat, no argument there, but so's any army which can spam missile launchers in a list. It all comes down to whether they or the Lootas can fire first.


----------



## gally912

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Nope, it affects all melters, multi melters, flamas, and heavy flamas in the army. If you have allied sisters in the army, they benefit.


I suppose my post wasn't as laced with sarcasm as I could have hoped. 

His argument was based around his abilities only working for salamanders (nowhere even so much as mentioned in the codex) and that he wasn't a great combat monster that was easy to kill. 

I tried to let the quote from his post speak for itself.


----------



## Stormbrow II

Wait - Stella isn't a girl? 

I'm genuinely surprised because he whines like one.


----------



## Doelago

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait - Stella isn't a girl?
> 
> I'm genuinely surprised because he whines like one.


I had the same reaction when I heard that...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait - Stella isn't a girl?
> 
> I'm genuinely surprised because he whines like one.





Doelago said:


> I had the same reaction when I heard that...


You guys obviously like playing with fire.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Stephen_Newman said:


> You guys obviously like playing with fire.


considering its taken them this long to figure that out I doubt there slow brains could even realise that they are playing with fire, even after being engulfed by the burning flames.


----------



## Stormbrow II

Oh no. I've been burned by a guy that I thought was a girl (but funnily not a paedo) because he has little girls plastered all over his profile/and I don't spend a massive amount of time on an obscure forum related to an obscure hobby. 

Shit, I've lost so much self-worth as a result I'm going to have to go and hold my two degree parchments to make myself feel better. 

To make this constructive - there is no cheese. There's good and bad players. Good players don't need to use it, bad players can't beat it.


----------



## The Sullen One

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait - Stella isn't a girl?
> 
> I'm genuinely surprised because he whines like one.


That's an insult to girls, after all they can win an argument.


----------



## darkreever

Alright, if you lot would like to continue your flame-baiting and borderline trolling then I suggest you stop derailing this topic and take it somewhere else. (Preferably a cliff, but within a raging volcano works as well.)

As for the topic, well I mentioned before I would try and get back with what units I do not like fighting and then got sidetracked; but I am here now and will think of three I do not like:

1. Dual or quadruple rune priests with jaws (with other variations to be legal)
2. Triple ravagers (in games under 750 points, anything after that is fair game)
3. Fire knife battlesuit configurations (don't get me wrong, its a common build for a good reason; I just became bored of it when the five tau players I faced in real life had them and no other variation.)


----------



## misinformed

darkreever said:


> Alright, if you lot would like to continue your flame-baiting and borderline trolling then I suggest you stop derailing this topic and take it somewhere else. (Preferably a cliff, but within a raging volcano works as well.)
> 
> As for the topic, well I mentioned before I would try and get back with what units I do not like fighting and then got sidetracked; but I am here now and will think of three I do not like:
> 
> 1. Dual or quadruple rune priests with jaws (with other variations to be legal)
> 2. Triple ravagers (in games under 750 points, anything after that is fair game)
> 3. Fire knife battlesuit configurations (don't get me wrong, its a common build for a good reason; I just became bored of it when the five tau players I faced in real life had them and no other variation.)


It's not like the OP will mind... His rage quit of this forum was earlier in this thread... 

Though you are right, there is a little too off topic.


----------



## Katie Drake

Stormbrow II said:


> To make this constructive - there is no cheese. There's good and bad players. Good players don't need to use it, bad players can't beat it.


+1.

So true.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait - Stella isn't a girl?
> 
> I'm genuinely surprised because he whines like one.





Doelago said:


> I had the same reaction when I heard that...





Stephen_Newman said:


> You guys obviously like playing with fire.





The Sullen One said:


> That's an insult to girls, after all they can win an argument.


I'm pretty sure you can't troll a troll. :laugh:


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Stella Cadente said:


> considering its taken them this long to figure that out I doubt there slow brains could even realise that they are playing with fire, even after being engulfed by the burning flames.





> I doubt there slow brains could


You mean their?


----------



## DeathKlokk

Great catch, Chugg. You're ok in my book. :victory:


----------



## gen.ahab

KingOfCheese said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't troll a troll. :laugh:


Yes, you can, it is a rare breed of troll know as the cannibal-troll.:laugh:


----------



## Wusword77

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, you can, it is a rare breed of troll know as the cannibal-troll.:laugh:


I actually think it's Cannitroll :laugh:


----------



## Winterous

Wusword77 said:


> I actually think it's Cannitroll :laugh:


Oddly, I thought the exact same thing.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Only works if the troll is a troll who trolls trollers.
An ordinary troll can't troll a troll.
Unless we have trolls that troll trollers on here?

Either way i don't think Stella was getting "trolled".
If anything, his trolling proved to be a success.


----------



## Deathscythe4722

You guys greatly underestimate the ability of trolls to troll trolls. Seriously, head on over to /tg/ when they bring up a DnD 3.5 vs 4e or a Halo vs 40k thread. 

Its like a forest of trolls, as far as the eye can see.

Hell, there is a thread discussing the merits of Hive Tyrants (and Swarmlord in particular) on the first page RIGHT NOW. One finely crafted post of "Swarmlord is overpowered and a poor design choice, only used by WAAC neckbeards." post would send the whole thing into a troll war of epic proportions.


----------



## Serpion5

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I never said horde armies were hard to beat. Quite the opposite. Its both the ease of beating them and huge amount of time spent watching the other player move models and roll dice that I hate.


I use the WotR movement trays. Unless I`m facing leafblower, then I just leave them in reserve so I don`t have to move them as often. If I`m honest, it`s the zoanthropes, DoM and Nid warriors that do the actual work. The 96 gaunts are just cannon fodder really, and leafblower guard aren`t really a threat on the same level to my heavier guys.



Creidim said:


> horde armies are easy are they? no wonder they aren't in tournaments hahahaha


I beg to differ, the success I`d seen in the last two tourneys I attended prompted me to have a crack at one. I`m still adjusting, because I usually run a more balanced list...



KingOfCheese said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't troll a troll. :laugh:


You can. I do it all the time in RL when I`m bored. Remember those bullshit jokes like left handed screwdrivers and such that you play on apprentices? Well, I actually did find striped paint; shut that fuckwit right up.



KingOfCheese said:


> Only works if the troll is a troll who trolls trollers.
> An ordinary troll can't troll a troll.
> Unless we have trolls that troll trollers on here?
> 
> Either way i don't think Stella was getting "trolled".
> If anything, his trolling proved to be a success.


I don`t troll on Heresy. My field isn`t well covered here. Besides, I love each and every one of you and do not wish to cause upset. :friends:

And yeah, Stella`s trolling rarely fail. I lolalot every time. :laugh: :smoke:


----------



## Baltar

I would lol, but the spelling, grammar, and sentence structure is so appalling on this forum that I can feel nothing but abhorence for the posters who are responsible.


----------



## Stella Cadente

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> You mean their?





DeathKlokk said:


> Great catch, Chugg. You're ok in my book. :victory:


it would be a great catch if not for 3 problems
1: its rather a pointless childish thing to point out, and sort of reeks of "I can't win, so I'll point out something really pathetic and small"
2: I don't give a shit what there I use as long as people get the point, so its about as great a catch as failing to catch a football from 2 inches away
3: there are people on this forum who on a regular basis spell entire posts incorrectly, people who fail so badly they spell "I" wrong, yet whos first language is english, so to ignore them all the time but insist on pointing out a wrong use of there in a post is probably the perfect example of being a very very sad little boy.


Stormbrow II said:


> To make this constructive - there is no cheese. There's good and bad players. Good players don't need to use it, bad players can't beat it.





Katie Drake said:


> +1.
> 
> So true.


so true, except its so wrong, and quite ignorant, why?, because cheese is interperated differently by people, in this thread there has been posted several different definitions of what people think cheese is.

and as a matter of fact the true definiton of cheesy or at least the most common version is
2: (informally) Trite, contrived, cliche. Often of poor quality; shoddy.
so your admitting storm and agreeing katie that there is no such thing as a poor quality shoddy army/codex/unit in the entire game?, thats rather kind of you isn't it, but confusing that your agreeing there is no such thing as a cliche army.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

> 1: its rather a pointless childish thing to point out, and sort of reeks of "I can't win, so I'll point out something really pathetic and small"
> 2: I don't give a shit what there I use as long as people get the point, so its about as great a catch as failing to catch a football from 2 inches away
> 3: there are people on this forum who on a regular basis spell entire posts incorrectly, people who fail so badly they spell "I" wrong, yet whos first language is english, so to ignore them all the time but insist on pointing out a wrong use of there in a post is probably the perfect example of being a very very sad little boy.


1-Not at all, I have just concluded after my time on this forum that arguing with you is generally a waste of time. Logic and reason seem to be lost in some pathetic pit of nerd rage.

3-lolumad


----------



## gen.ahab

Wusword77 said:


> I actually think it's Cannitroll :laugh:


Nope, its a cannibal troll. lol

I have documented research.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

didn't a moderator just comment and ask people to stop the trolling/baiting? But three posts later your both at it again? 


I agree with Stella (on the cheese point) That since it is pretty obvious it is interpreted differently by differant people we cant come to any kind of consensus.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> didn't a moderator just comment and ask people to stop the trolling/baiting? But three posts later your both at it again?


doesn't help when you get a second mod help spark things back up though


----------



## darkreever

Stella Cadente said:


> doesn't help when you get a second mod help spark things back up though


But it does help if the first member of the staff is more senior than the second one.

Last warning for the lot of you, taking the trolling elsewhere or just plain fuck-off if you really think you can't.


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Yeah cheese exists and it goes by names like mephiston who for some reason is tougher and has more wounds than a deamon prince and he also flies (just one example). I dunno when it started but somewhere a cheesey unit or character was created (probably a SM unit) and then GW had to keep coming up with cheesey units to stay on par with the last. Who knows

But i will absolutely not play against a wolves list with some 20 odd termis and grimnar and those god forsaken long fangs in the back. I dont care who says "every list can beat every other list". That list is cheesey and if you didnt tailor your army to beat it, you will lose


----------



## Winterous

Iron_Freak220 said:


> Yeah cheese exists and it goes by names like mephiston who for some reason is tougher and has more wounds than a deamon prince and he also flies (just one example).


He's also obscenely expensive for a single model that doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
Oh, and if you Psychic block him, he becomes a little useless really.

He's not cheesy, corny maybe, but not cheesy.



Iron_Freak220 said:


> But i will absolutely not play against a wolves list with some 20 odd termis and grimnar and those god forsaken long fangs in the back. I dont care who says "every list can beat every other list". That list is cheesey and if you didnt tailor your army to beat it, you will lose


Cry some more and stop playing a bad army then.
You play Chaos Space Marines, you have access to Vindicators, PROBLEM SOLVED!


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Winterous said:


> He's also obscenely expensive for a single model that doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
> Oh, and if you Psychic block him, he becomes a little useless really.
> 
> He's not cheesy, corny maybe, but not cheesy.
> 
> 
> Cry some more and stop playing a bad army then.
> You play Chaos Space Marines, you have access to Vindicators, PROBLEM SOLVED!


Like i said. If you dont tailor your list to beat an army its not necessarily gonna win. I dont use vindicators. So that whole "any list can beat any list" philosophy isnt true. And youre just helping to prove my point 

Also no SM should be T6. Thats cheesy no matter how expensive he is. Its just making a character good for the sake of being good


----------



## Tossidin

There is no cheese in this game. If there was to be a cheesy unit, it would be chimeras, just cause they are so insanely cheap for what they do.
The unbalance in 40k is older codicies vs newer, as the newer have lower point costs overall and got more tools.

Mephiston is far from cheesy. Reason he is egarded as such is that people don't understand how to counter / play against him. 250 points. useless vs eldar (with RoW), and any psychic protection can ruin his day. He also has no invul.
Played vs him yesterday, I fed him a thunderwolf and a 5 man grey hunter squad. Then he just died outright to consentrated shooting.

Also, a Loganwing list with 20 terminators is just bad. I have played with it myself, and it doesn't really work. Slow, expensive, no mobile melta.


----------



## buckythefly

I don't really get into hating on specific units, I mean some of them when spammed are frustrating to play against...But mostly, the only time I wanna walk away from the table is when someone went online and got one of those cookie cutter "unstoppable" lists. It takes me a long ass time to take out enough orks for a 3000 point game, even longer to put them away, at least bring me something other then a duel lash list or a Mechy Eldar spam list. neither of those are fun for either of us...I want a knock down drag out fight.

Because surprise, I enjoy fighting someone with a good army list they came up with.


----------



## Katie Drake

Iron_Freak220 said:


> Like i said. If you dont tailor your list to beat an army its not necessarily gonna win. I dont use vindicators. So that whole "any list can beat any list" philosophy isnt true. And youre just helping to prove my point


Anyone that says "any list can beat any list" is right. It's just that sometimes circumstances have to be so extraordinary or the dice need to be so incredibly biased that for the inferior of the two lists to win some sort of divine intervention at best or statistical anomaly at worst would be required. And that's okay.

Should a Tyranid army made of a single Tyranid Prime with say, a devourer and scything talons plus 6 troops choices of Gaunts be able to defeat a Space Marine army with two minimally sized Tactical Squads and an HQ that are riding in a pair of Land Raiders in an Annihilation mission? No, it shouldn't be able to. Why? Because the Tyranid player didn't even attempt to make a balanced list that can function well against a wide variety of foes. I realize that this is an extreme example, but the point stands - an army that's carefully constructed to be able to truly handle just about anything _should_ beat any sort of clusterfuck army with a bunch of units haphazardly thrown together with little to no rhyme or reason.

In your example, a Loganwing army seems to be able to habitually defeat a Chaos Space Marine army. I have to ask why this is a bad thing. The Space Wolf player has taken the time to construct an army that's absolutely deadly on the tabletop - each unit works in harmony with the rest. It can probably pump out a staggering amount of firepower between Wolf Guard Terminator Squads, Long Fangs and Razorbacks (just an example). The Chaos Marine player is getting stomped time and again, yet refuses to adapt. Why? Because he doesn't want use Vindicators.

I have to ask, whose fault is it that the Chaos player won't make changes to his list so that in the event of coming up against Loganwing, he'll have a chance of winning? It sure as _hell_ isn't the Wolf player's fault.

I think a lot of players miss the difference between list tailoring and list tweaking. Tailoring your list is sitting down and saying to yourself, "Well, I know I'm going up against Space Wolves today. I know this player loves his Long Fangs, Terminators and Razorbacks, so I'm going to design a list to defeat these units with a minimum of bother." List tweaking is going, "Well, my last few games against Space Wolves haven't gone very well. Since it doesn't seem that my problem is a tactical one, I guess the issue lies in my army list." The tweaking player then takes a long, hard look at his army list, identifies the units that are struggling most and then re-evaluates them and has to decide if they're truly worth keeping. Sometimes one needs to do this several times to hit upon a winning combination. Sometimes one will remove the wrong units so the tweaking player will need to return to the drawing board more than once. That's how it works. Not this:












> Also no SM should be T6. Thats cheesy no matter how expensive he is. Its just making a character good for the sake of being good


I can't say I understand your point. No Space Marine should be T6 because why? Because it doesn't fit your narrow view of how tough a Space Marine should be in the fluff? You realize that Chaplain Cassius has T6 too, right? You do realize that the reasoning behind this is that he was stomped on by a Carnifex and had the majority of his body rebuilt with bionics, right? How is this in any way different than a Librarian who, using truly incredible amounts of willpower, cast out the Black Rage and ascended to his full, true psychic potential? Answer: It isn't.


----------



## Winterous

Iron_Freak220 said:


> Like i said. If you dont tailor your list to beat an army its not necessarily gonna win. I dont use vindicators. So that whole "any list can beat any list" philosophy isnt true. And youre just helping to prove my point
> 
> Also no SM should be T6. Thats cheesy no matter how expensive he is. Its just making a character good for the sake of being good


I would say something to this, but Katie said it all rather elegantly.


----------



## DeathKlokk

Go, Katie!

Iron Freak:


----------



## Aramoro

Iron freaks point is entirely reasonable. If your chosen army is CSM for whatever reason and you're not comfortable playing it as 'Counts As' Space Wolves like everyone else then you will struggle to beat a min/maxed list like Loganwing. If every week tou turn up to your gaming club and the same guy in there every single week playing the same Loganwing list then it is cheesy and boring. Loganwing is comfortably better than most other all comer lists out there, it is by definition a cheesy list. 

In a tourney who cares, half the field will be TWC or Loganwing so there's no cheese to be found. It's playing freindly games again these dull as shit lists which makes them cheese.


----------



## Forty Three

However, he is mistaking tailoring, which is very bad and crap, with building a balanced army. He's running a raptor based army ffs! Essentially, the complaint is 'I want to play an army from a codex that has weaknesses, and on top of that, I want to not use the parts which are actually good, but rather use a lot of the bad ones. And I don't want to lose against a list which DOES use good units.' Making your list better (i.e not running raptors) would not be tailoring, it would be making a better list. refusing to do that forfeits any argument about lists being too good.

What I never understood is the idea that having one player have a killer list and one have a soft list is bad (which is true, it's no fun for anyone), so the solution is everyone make soft lists. The inherent flaw with that argument is that the appropriate level of 'softness' is impossible to reach between 2 parties, since the concept is inherently subjective. THUS, wouldn't it be much easier, if what we want is armies with similar power levels, to say 'let's all do the best we can'. The answer is yes, it would - agreeing on only doing 65% of our best, or whatever, it impossible to take into reality.

TLR: if you want balanced games, get everyone to make a good army. If you don't want to make a good army yourself, then that's your own fault.


43

EDIT: one more thing, I understand the desire to use units that are less good for fun or whatever, and I appreciate that people sometiemes (or every time) like to play 'just for fun'. However, the solution to that is to make it perfectly clear before you are about to play one of these games that it'll be just for fun, and NOT try to make it the standard.


----------



## Aramoro

If you build a balanced 'good' CSM list with players of equal skill you'll probably still lose to Loganwing. For the CSM players perspective the game is boring and predictable. That's why you avoid playing against these cheesy list, not because they'll win but because they're boring to play against. 

But that's the thing, it's the same with all games to an extent. The more boring the list the better it is. The lower the amount of interaction with your opponent you manage to create the more successful you will be. That's just the nature of games like this, and it's boring. Now being boring on tournies is one thing but we're not talking about tournies.


----------



## Winterous

Aramoro said:


> If you build a balanced 'good' CSM list with players of equal skill you'll probably still lose to Loganwing. For the CSM players perspective the game is boring and predictable. That's why you avoid playing against these cheesy list, not because they'll win but because they're boring to play against.


That's not due to Wolf Wing being particularly good, but due to CSM being particularly bad.


----------



## Aramoro

Winterous said:


> That's not due to Wolf Wing being particularly good, but due to CSM being particularly bad.


The reason is irrelevant. The game is about having fun, if you have a choice between playing against something fun that someones put together a cool army or playing yet another loganwing then it's an easy choice. That's what this topic is about is it not, choosing not to play boring games.


----------



## Winterous

Aramoro said:


> The reason is irrelevant. The game is about having fun, if you have a choice between playing against something fun that someones put together a cool army or playing yet another loganwing then it's an easy choice. That's what this topic is about is it not, choosing not to play boring games.


I think it's actually about cheesey lists, but anyway.

Why exactly is Wolfwing considered 'too good'?
How do people normally run them? Land Raiders, Drop Pods?


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

People lose to an army, so they call it boring and cheesy. I dont see how playing against armies with a random clusterfuck of units thrown together are anymore fun to fight than any of your power lists. Often times they are boring as hell, army has very few units that can hurt me, and if I neutralize them fast I get to spend the next hour watching the list flounder about. At least a power list will always put out a fight, meaning the game almost never turns into some kind of horrible stomping.


----------



## Aramoro

I don't think it's has to do with winning or losing to lists persay, it's about having a fun game. Power lists tend to be pretty spammy and work on a fewest number of moving parts principal, you can play them using a flowchart. 

You can build the most competitive all comers Chaos Space Marine list you like and you'll still, in general, get roflstomped by Loganwing. So why would you waste your time playing a boring game, why would the Loganwing player waste his time playing it? You might as well play some games which are a challenge and a bit fun as well. It is a game after all.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

I wont play my loganwing unless its at a tournament or with someone in a pre arranged game where they know its coming. I agree its a very powerful list, and the loganwing player should probably bring a 2nd army in case someone doesnt want to fight logan. So I agree with that, I dont agree its anymore boring though. I like games where im at a severe disadvantage and have to really struggle to win. Its why I play my nids against mech wolves so much, and why I challenged a guard player who could put out 36 ap2 shots and a large ap2 template a turn with my sanguard. So the whole 'hurr its boring' is largely a cop out.



> I don't think it's has to do with winning or losing to lists persay, it's about having a fun game. Power lists tend to be pretty spammy and work on a fewest number of moving parts principal, you can play them using a flowchart.


Nah, power lists arent nearly as easy to play as you would think. They just give you every tool you could need, the player still has to make it work.


----------



## Zjoekov

In a way this thread is fun. I don't know if it is due to all the trolling or due to so many people claiming certain things are cheese... I think it's the trolling.

Stella is actually a pretty good troll; pitty her knowledge of the game is a little bit lacking, but you can't have everything I guess. No wait you can > Chuggin and Katie <3 (silly attempt at getting some internet friends I know)

Some serious on-topic business: Agree with the general claim that cheese doesn't really exist... I do hate playing certain armies; mainly Hordes (because some players can't play quick enough with it) and bad players in general (pointless games; already decided before it starts) unless he's an awesome guy/hot chick (yeah right) because then it's still fun.

Some of the things called cheesy are truly hilarious. Maybe people should stop being so frustrated and wanting to influence the way other people play by claiming certain armies/units are so cheesy. Because yes, big surprise, because of that some people feel bad playing an army they actually like. Or even worse: People feel bad and then go all out on a big 'gotta stomp people with my cheesy army because they don't like playing against it anyway' crusade.

It's like saying people are retarded for playing fluffy and highly ineffective armies. Why? You kill the fun for me because you don't give me any challenge. 

Just accept that people play this game for different reasons. Practicly nobody takes these so-called 'cheesy' units/lists because it makes them win games easily. No, they take it so that they can compete in balanced games against other people who did the same. It's not the winning in itself what gives satisfaction, it's the challenge.
And yes I believe you get the best balanced games by both taking an optimised list. When you take lacking lists you are in much more danger of creating rock/paper/scissor matchups.


----------



## Aramoro

Oh I forgot Chuggin and Katie were the King and Queen of 40K, just a shame Katie is gay or they could make Super 40K babies. To disagree with them is treasonous. 



> I wont play my loganwing unless its at a tournament or with someone in a pre arranged game where they know its coming. I agree its a very powerful list, and the loganwing player should probably bring a 2nd army in case someone doesnt want to fight logan. So I agree with that, I dont agree its anymore boring though. I like games where im at a severe disadvantage and have to really struggle to win. Its why I play my nids against mech wolves so much, and why I challenged a guard player who could put out 36 ap2 shots and a large ap2 template a turn with my sanguard. So the whole 'hurr its boring' is largely a cop out.


The problem is not everyone is as magnanimous as you. I enjoy the challenge which is why I play the armies I do. Some people however just enjoy winning and doing so irrelevant of the reason why the win.


----------



## D-A-C

There is no such thing as a 'cheesy unit' only cheesy lists.

I've said a few times that the problem with certain units is that they gain a rep for being awesome in all situations and the strongest choice in that slot.

Two examples that stick out in my mind are,

1. Obliterators

2. Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots


Both these units are quite effective, but people just spam that FOC slot with all of that one single unit, instead of selecting from a variety choices available.

That's were cheese comes into play IMO. 

It's not that the list suddenly becomes unbeatable, but people are clearly spamming a unit in order to get a pre-game advanatge, albeit, a legal one.


Anyone agree / disagree?


----------



## Zjoekov

Disagree because those units are pretty much the only way to make those armies work.


----------



## D-A-C

Zjoekov said:


> Disagree because those units are pretty much the only way to make those armies work.


If your going to post a general statement with no evidence to back it up here is my response:


What a load of cr*p.


You can make plenty of strong and competitive lists without those units.


Entire codices aren't made by one or two units, unless of course your also playing against someone who min/maxes and mathhammers the sh*t out of everything, and even then you can still win with a bit of skill and luck.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Zjoekov said:


> Disagree because those units are pretty much the only way to make those armies work with as little thought as possible put towards list building and during play.


your forgot that bit


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

D-A-C said:


> If your going to post a general statement with no evidence to back it up here is my response:
> What a load of cr*p.
> You can make plenty of strong and competitive lists without those units.
> Entire codices aren't made by one or two units, unless of course your also playing against someone who min/maxes and mathhammers the sh*t out of everything, and even then you can still win with a bit of skill and luck.


Please provide examples of those competitive and strong lists that dont feature obliterators, otherwise what you have just said is a load of crap.

buh buh theres like strong units man, you just like cant see it man, theyre like uhm hidden man



> your forgot that bit


"I dont understand how the game works and butthurt easily, so Ill just post more of the same drivel I do in every thread. The truly talented players run rock paper scissors battleforce armies and lose all the time ;_;"


----------



## Aramoro

I think to help DAC out a bit here he means Long Fangs.


----------



## Zjoekov

D-A-C said:


> If your going to post a general statement with no evidence to back it up here is my response:
> 
> 
> What a load of cr*p.
> 
> 
> *You can make plenty of strong and competitive lists without those units*.


If your going to post a general statement with no evidence to back it up here is my response:

What a load of cr*p.

See? Forums are lovely <3 




> Entire codices aren't made by one or two units, unless of course your also playing against someone who min/maxes and mathhammers the sh*t out of everything,


Yes; that's pretty much what you need to do to play competatively.



> and even then you can still win with a bit of skill and luck.


Can we assume we don't play idiots, so our oppenents have skill too? And you say you need to rely on being lucky in order to be able to compete? Lol ur bad.

And Stella; for the love of gawd, try a little harder when you decide to troll. I only started checking this forum recently (it's like Warseer; but without the Mod-Nazi's) and I see you trolling in the exact same way in a lot of threads. Is your life so boring that the only thing which reminds you of being alive is seeing that somebody replied to your trolling? Well if that's true: go ahead and troll me if it makes you feel better.


----------



## Eleven

D-A-C said:


> If your going to post a general statement with no evidence to back it up here is my response:
> 
> 
> What a load of cr*p.
> 
> 
> You can make plenty of strong and competitive lists without those units.


I won't speak for daemons, but you really need oblits to make the army work in the current codex. I can't see how you would say otherwise. I mean, what other options are you talking about? Bringing a khorne army with all LRs? eh....Or 3 vindicators + lash and hoping that all your opponents will bring foot armies?

I'm sure your not about to say predators....


----------



## Stella Cadente

Eleven said:


> I mean, what other options are you talking about? Bringing a khorne army with all LRs? eh....Or 3 vindicators + lash and hoping that all your opponents will bring foot armies?


how about neither, you have a whole codex at your disposal after all, why limit yourself to only those other 2 options


----------



## Eleven

Stella Cadente said:


> how about neither, you have a whole codex at your disposal after all, why limit yourself to only those other 2 options


stella...you must be trolling?

We are talking about hvy support options and I mentioned 4 of the 5 options we have....lol. you can't have a chaos army without hvy support. it isn't going to work. If you don't have oblits, you will have to have some other form of hvy support. If you reply with another response as groundless and baseless as this, I simply won't reply.

Tell me, what hvy support choice could be taken in place of oblits. I mean, apparently there a millions of ways to build without them, so lets see it.


----------



## Zjoekov

Well there is 1 other possible option, but I don't think Stella approves of that either. It's a list setup designed by Stelek (don't hate me for mentioning his name) and it's the blandest list I ever witnessed (yes worse than orks horde, because at least those are..well Orks):

Basicly spam rhinos with 5 man squad in it equiped with meltas. Yes that includes CSM with melta/combimelta, Havocs in rhinos and chosen in rhinos depending on points. 

No other competative lists possible. If you merely play against non-optimised armies, then you can choose whatever the f*ck you want.

Even worse: even with Oblits you'll still be playing with a not-so good army. The Chaos codex is too outdated (overpriced shizzle and lacking options) to field 'cheesy lists'.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Eleven said:


> stella...you must be trolling?
> 
> We are talking about hvy support options and I mentioned 4 of the 5 options we have....lol.





Eleven said:


> Bringing a khorne army with all LRs?


1 


Eleven said:


> eh....Or 3 vindicators + lash


2
thats 2 options to build your list around, you said nothing about seperate heavy support choices


Eleven said:


> you can't have a chaos army without hvy support. it isn't going to work.


well duh, thats true with every army, you prove nothing.


Eleven said:


> If you don't have oblits, you will have to have some other form of hvy support.


no shit, but you can use oblits and something else, you just don't need 9 oblits


Eleven said:


> Tell me, what hvy support choice could be taken in place of oblits.


have you not got a codex?, take a look at the heavy support section, there are several choices that are listed, if your codex only has oblits maybe you shuould ge a refund, sounds like a printing error


----------



## D-A-C

Zjoekov said:


> Yes; that's pretty much what you need to do to play competatively.
> 
> 
> Can we assume we don't play idiots, so our oppenents have skill too? And you say you need to rely on being lucky in order to be able to compete? Lol ur bad.


You mean to tell me that a game involving dice doesn't involve any luck?

You do realise that probability isn't an exact science and that dice roll which you are supposed to make 2 out of every 3 times, you can and will sometimes fail it three times in a row.


Also, in order to be competitive you have to condemn entire swathes of every single codex as being 'crap'?

Well thank f*ck I'm not competitive. No wonder competitive players are such a**holes when people can come out with statements like that.



For what it's worth here is my fun and fluffy 1500pt Iron Warriors list that I feel at least gives me the chance to win:

*
HQ*

Daemon Prince, Wings, Warptime, 155pts


*ELITES*

3 CSM Terminators, Champion, Chainfist, x2 Combi-Plasmas, x1 Combi-Melta, 130pts


*TROOPS*

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, IOCG, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 265pts

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer, IOCG, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 265pts

8 Khorne Berzerkers, Champion, Powerfist, Rhino, 243pts


*Heavy Support*

x2 Obliterators, 150pts

CSM Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

CSM Predator, Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Launcher, 145pts


Now, i'm sure all you competitive gamers will laugh and say what a sh*t list it is, and maybe if I came up against one of those power build lists that spam the sh*t out of everything and min/max the fun out of the game, I would lose. 

But tactics, terrain, objectives and yes luck are factors that influence the game as well, not just ... 'OMG THIS UNIT IS AWESOME SPAM THREE OF THEM!!!'


Oh and also ... when my little plastic men win or lose, I'm not the most awesome person / or the worst person in the whole world.

The objective of a HOBBY, not a SPORT, is to have fun, not to win all the freaking time.


I'm just going to say it - people who need to win Warhammer 40k in order to feel good about themselves are losers. Plain and f*cking simple.


----------



## Forty Three

Stella Cadente said:


> how about neither, you have a whole codex at your disposal after all, why limit yourself to only those other 2 options


you can feel free to use all the crappy units you want for all the wrong reasons all you want, no one is stopping it. But then you forfeit your right to whine that the other player isn't making stupid decisions based on some arbitrary definition of fun.

43


----------



## Stella Cadente

Forty Three said:


> you can feel free to use all the crappy units you want for all the wrong reasons all you want, no one is stopping it.


crappy acording to who exactly?, competetive gamers who never use these proclaimed "crappy" units and only use lists spamming 1 unit as much as possible?

they don't sound like good people to get advice off really, I'd rather make an army after talking to people who have succesfully utilised all the units in a codex and doesn't just label everything as crap because they are unsuccessful commanders.


----------



## Forty Three

Stella Cadente said:


> crappy acording to who exactly?, competetive gamers who never use these proclaimed "crappy" units and only use lists spamming 1 unit as much as possible?
> 
> they don't sound like good people to get advice off really.


I don't know.. maybe Kroot? you don't seem to be very fond of them. (even though they're actually good. Seeing a pattern yet?)

43


----------



## Stella Cadente

Forty Three said:


> I don't know.. maybe Kroot? you don't seem to be very fond of them. (even though they're actually good. Seeing a pattern yet?)
> 
> 43


there different, there crappy because they just are, they would be great IF they had a close combat weapon to gain the bonus of having an extra one, and if most boards were not so obviously lacking in trees.

its not there fault, its just badly written rules for them, for chaos its different, they have good units, its just nobody wants to put in a little effort to use them.

plus if all these units in the codex are so bad why don't you go around the forum and when you see someone painting something not in your army list call them an idiot, I'm sure they'd appreciate that before enjoying there games with these models.


----------



## Zjoekov

D-A-C said:


> You mean to tell me that a game involving dice doesn't involve any luck?


You can read do you? If not; please stop bothering posting because you make people confuzzled I'm afraid. 

You said you didn't need to field a really good list to be able to compete; because you might be lucky. Really just read your comment again and then mine.



> You do realise that probability isn't an exact science and that dice roll which you are supposed to make 2 out of every 3 times, you can and will sometimes fail it three times in a row.


This is something entirely different. This is not about needing to be lucky to win; that's what you said and that's what I disagreed with. I agree with this; this is understanding probabilities too. Actually I hate people who expect to roll average during games and cry whenever they fail 2 out of 2 2+ saves.



> Also, in order to be competitive you have to condemn entire swathes of every single codex as being 'crap'?


Some codices; yes, especially the older ones. Tau, Eldar and Chaos in paricular have little to no freedom regarding the list setup and only a little freedom regarding unit choices/setups.



> Well thank f*ck I'm not competitive. No wonder competitive players are such a**holes when people can come out with statements like that.


Alright, here you need to seperate 2 things:
-Understanding what makes armies competative.
-Playing with such lists/mindset.

I can assure you; most people who claim that certain things about competative play don't play necessarily which such kind of lists. But just because you don't like such a 'mindset'/way of playign doesn't make it true or untrue.

I don't know any assholes to be honest who are competative. You know which kind of people tend to be assholes? Wannabe WAAC players. The kind of people who don't understand this game all that well and pick a list of the internet in the hopes of kicking ass with it. And when things don't go their ways; they go berzerk. I'm pretty sure you would love playing against me:wink: Why? I understand dice better than most, I don't care if I lose (either you outplayed me, or i made mistakes, or the dice were off, or I played with a worse list which I decided to do myself. In all cases there is nothing to be angry of).

So chill out and don't make such general claims that competative people are jerks; most aren't. Or well maybe I'm a jerk and I like playing against jerks haha, who knows.



> For what it's worth here is my fun and fluffy 1500pt Iron Warriors list that I feel at least gives me the chance to win:
> 
> *list*
> 
> Now, i'm sure all you competitive gamers will laugh and say what a sh*t list it is, and maybe if I came up against one of those power build lists that spam the sh*t out of everything and min/max the fun out of the game, I would lose.


Decent list to be honest. Nowhere near bad or anything. Swapping that vindie out for another AC/LC pred or another 2 Oblits or another Prince would make it pretty close to a good Chaos list.



> But tactics, terrain, objectives and yes luck are factors that influence the game as well, not just ... 'OMG THIS UNIT IS AWESOME SPAM THREE OF THEM!!!'


Doesn't that apply to optimised lists as well?




> Oh and also ... when my little plastic men win or lose, I'm not the most awesome person / or the worst person in the whole world.
> 
> The objective of a HOBBY, not a SPORT, is to have fun, not to win all the freaking time.
> 
> 
> I'm just going to say it - people who need to win Warhammer 40k in order to feel good about themselves are losers. Plain and f*cking simple.


+1

In summary: Try to seperate things. Having opinions about what competative is and what not does not equal being the devil.




@Stella: Kroot get the +1 attack for additional close combat weapons. It's in the FAQ  Don't worry; happens to the best.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

I dont know where these competitive assholes are. I keep getting lumped into the same category as them, but I almost never meet them. Do you believe that the government implanted mind control chips in people and that 9/11 was an inside job too?


----------



## Wysten

But real competative 40K players don't go to a tourney to simply win, they go to recieve the greatest challange of their abilitys vs the toughest armies and pit their wits against likeminded tachcans. 

That is some peoples concepts of fun and while I can do both, I enjoy a good story being played out on the battlefield and theres nothing quite as satisfying as going ahead to head with two really powerful armies going at it, and winning/losing narrowly with a sense that I really earned it. Both are types of fun that I don't think should be spilt down the middle.

Of course, I tend to think about "the how" (what I want my guys to achieve) rather then what my list looks like. Oblivators are the best in the codex for Long Ranged pounding so it makes sense that multiple squads are taken. 

When taking a Spear of Russ list (Loganwing easiencally, just I don't like the name since it's indicating Space Wolves copy of DA. XD) then massed long fangs is the only heavy slot I would consider in keeping with the massed foot appeal. Spam it is? Yes, but when I want that heavy firepower spot filling and to keep the army pure foot, it's the best hands down choice if I am going to a tourney, then other times I can mess around with things that may not be so effective. Like Vindies in the same list. 

Point is, spam is not a bad thing. Competative play is not a bad thing, but the context in which you use them in is subject. I would not go into a match with a random guy in a store taking a hard list but I will use all my strength in a tourney or a guy who wants to be tested to his limits. There are no cheesy units, but there are contexts where it is not approate. It always helps to maximize the probability to get a postive result which is what spam aims to achieve, but also to keep in mind that the dice is not completely infaiable and as the game goes on my priorties may change.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Holy shit, someone posts something that is both correct and should end the argument?. $10 says it is simply ignored for more of the same whining from stella and DAC.


----------



## Aramoro

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> I dont know where these competitive assholes are. I keep getting lumped into the same category as them, but I almost never meet them.


You get lumped with them because you act and post like that, you have this incredible level of arrogance and bravado about your own abilities and lists. You post extensively about how competitive you are and how uncompetitive others are. This may be entirely unfair to you, I don't know you so I cannot say. But you are simply treated how you act. You never meet them because it's you?

Now I know you're going to come back and say 'im not arrogant blah blah, just stating facts blah blah'. But if you want to know why you're lumped with those people that is why.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Cite your sources please, I have a few reasons to believe you are simply talking out of your ass.

Arrogance =/= arguing out points, but please, give me more examples.

There is a tendency among anti social types, gamers and such, to sit on their butts and whine and complain about things that have no real effect on the world. Cheesy lists for example, or the fact that somebody beats them in a fucking game. Everyone has done this. I used to just be like stella and DAC, then I found out that I had a pair of testicles and quit acting that way. Its also this "everyone" is a winner mentality. I spent years losing at 40k and it never bothered me. The people I was playing were older and more experienced, and ran better lists. I understand my walking assault terminators werent the best back in 3rd, but I didnt care. I was 12 at the time and it never bothered me to lose a game. 9 years later it still doesnt bug me, though I win a lot more. I dont see why people who play a game based around winning find it necessary to demonize those who they lose to. And the methods used are pretty stupid. "Hurrr boring cookie cutter spam list." "durrr waac powergamer who doesnt want to have fun." You know what I thinks fun? Not playing against insufferable twats who cant pull their heads out of their own asses.

I act so arrogantly on this site because there is no other way to talk to the kind of people on here. If you make a simple logical argument it gets ignored. You know about that aromomomomo from the orks are uncompetitive thread. Anytime I refuted one of your arguments you simply ignored it and moved on. Im more than willing to argue things out in a civilized and decent manner, but that simply gets nothing across. You have to act in an aggressive dominant fashion on forums, otherwise the stellas and irisados of the world simply drown you out with a cacaphony of tears and bitching.


----------



## Aramoro

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Cite your sources please, I have a few reasons to believe you are simply talking out of your ass.
> 
> Arrogance =/= arguing out points, but please, give me more examples.


I'm afraid there's no authoritative source for thinking you're an asshole, as it is just an opinion after all. You want to know why you're grouped in that category, it's because people think you are, simple as that.


----------



## Forty Three

it's hard to be humble when you're correct

=)

43


----------



## Aramoro

Wysten said:


> ....


I think this is ostensibly correct. In a tourney no-one cares what you play, play you're best list everyone has fun because of the context of a tourney. In pickup games, random games there's little point, especially if you're chosen faction is just not as good or you're not as good a player as other people etc.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

Forty Three said:


> it's hard to be humble when you're correct
> 
> =)
> 
> 43


:goodpost:


----------



## D-A-C

Wysten said:


> But real competative 40K players don't go to a tourney to simply win, they go to recieve the greatest challange of their abilitys vs the toughest armies and pit their wits against likeminded tachcans.


Insert Rocky Music here, coupled with training session after training session as the competitive players get ready for the tournament and prepare their little plastic men for the challenge of their lives.

(Overly serious voice)

The wisest tacticians, the best of the best, only the toughest survive in the tournament scene.

It's kill or be killed, and you can be sure, that by the end, someone will be killed!!!

Come down to the Coliseum of Death, the Area of Pain, the ... rented games area, on Sunday ..


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

I told you guys, somebody better give me $10 now.


----------



## Wysten

D-A-C said:


> Insert Rocky Music here, coupled with training session after training session as the competitive players get ready for the tournament and prepare their little plastic men for the challenge of their lives.
> 
> (Overly serious voice)
> 
> The wisest tacticians, the best of the best, only the toughest survive in the tournament scene.
> 
> It's kill or be killed, and you can be sure, that by the end, someone will be killed!!!
> 
> Come down to the Coliseum of Death, the Area of Pain, the ... rented games area, on Sunday ..


So what you are saying is, that it's unacceptable to go to a tourney to get a good challange? 

Tourneys are just gathering places to test eachothers metal, look at the great paintjobs on eachothers armies and what not. A bit of nerdisum never hurts in moderation.


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

In the grimdarkness of D-A-Chammer 40k we all stand in a circle, shake the guy next to us dick, and talk about our most traumatic experience during childhood.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Too D-A-C anything remotely comp. is about a step away from being hellspawned. One wonders though, did this start as a childhood failing of losing every game you played at sport? Or some other deep-seated anxiety over competition?


----------



## D-A-C

For all you competitive players out there,


----------



## ChugginDatHaterade

At least I managed to man up and win games, as opposed to bitching about people who do.


----------



## D-A-C

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> In the grimdarkness of D-A-Chammer 40k we all stand in a circle, shake the guy next to us dick, and talk about our most traumatic experience during childhood.


You know what?

I always thought I was a Chaos fan, but I'm sensing a calling for The Greater Good.

I think I'll go work on a list that includes Etherals.

:biggrin:


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

So we expect a dozen threads on Tau now? And half a dozen thats its unfair you lost to a player with a better list?


----------



## gen.ahab

*NAZIS*

Figured it was going to happen so I might as well do it first.


----------



## D-A-C

gen.ahab said:


> *NAZIS*
> 
> Figured it was going to happen so I might as well do it first.


Close but no Cigar, HITLER.


----------



## Jezlad

Can we stay on topic please? 90% of the threads I've read today are full of flirting. If you want to fuck arrange it via PM... the level of shit is mind numbing.


----------



## LukeValantine

Victory or death, Let us march against the mewling cowards that hide behind their lies, and ram the nightmarish reality of existence down their wretched maws.

In the interest of trying to stay on topic I got to say certain imperial guard lists just ruin my day, Really 9 plasma cannon shots?
?


----------



## Iron_Freak220

@katie what?!!?!? Tweaking IS tailoring. Youve realized that your current list will not beat the loganwing list so youve decided to change it however small a change it might be (thats my point). You walk enough feet and you'll eventually go a mile 

Also as far as the mephiston thing goes, you can make up fluff for anything. For example my chaos havocs are 10,000 years old therefore better than long fangs. As such they can split fire, have relentless, and can fire twice a turn. Hey now i dont have to bring obliterators :laugh:

And to those people who say any list can win because there's a chance the other guy will roll only ones, since it is a game of chance after all: shut up. Tactics and army composition by far outweigh luck in this game


----------



## Katie Drake

Iron_Freak220 said:


> @katie what?!!?!? Tweaking IS tailoring. Youve realized that your current list will not beat the loganwing list so youve decided to change it however small a change it might be (thats my point). You walk enough feet and you'll eventually go a mile


No, it's really not. Making one or two small changes in order to make a better rounded army isn't the same as purpose-building a list for the sole purpose of taking someone else's down.



> Also as far as the mephiston thing goes, you can make up fluff for anything. For example my chaos havocs are 10,000 years old therefore better than long fangs. As such they can split fire, have relentless, and can fire twice a turn. Hey now i dont have to bring obliterators :laugh:


I don't really see what you're getting at. You're basically arguing that because _you_ don't think any Space Marine should be that tough, that Mephiston is a cheese unit that nobody should use? Is this right or am I missing something?



> And to those people who say any list can win because there's a chance the other guy will roll only ones, since it is a game of chance after all: shut up. Tactics and army composition by far outweigh luck in this game


Well that we can agree on.



Aramarororororororo said:


> Oh I forgot Chuggin and Katie were the King and Queen of 40K, just a shame Katie is gay or they could make Super 40K babies. To disagree with them is treasonous.


How could you forget something so basic? That's like forgetting to breathe! :grin:


----------



## gen.ahab

Iron_Freak220 said:


> Also as far as the mephiston thing goes, you can make up fluff for anything. For example my chaos havocs are 10,000 years old therefore better than long fangs. As such they can split fire, have relentless, and can fire twice a turn. Hey now i dont have to bring obliterators :laugh:


Your CSM aren't 10k years old. Time in the warp doesn't adhere to the same rules as time in real space. Besides, chances are your random chaos dude wouldn't last through 10k years of combat.


----------



## Cyleune

> In the interest of trying to stay on topic I got to say certain imperial guard lists just ruin my day, Really 9 plasma cannon shots?
> ?


I run 2 Exectutioners with Plasma sponsons, thats 10 plasma right there, then 2 Chiplasmavets, another 6. Total is 16 plasma shots a turn. Have a nice day.


On that Space Marine thing up there, they may be badass, but you have to remember there are only like 20 of them in a 2k list sooo...


----------



## Baltar

Anyone that thinks Mephiston is cheese has never used Mephiston in a 40k battle.

I have, many times, and he always gets smashed.

THAT many points for a unit with no invul save and no EW? No thanks, it's crapola.

The Sanguinor, on the other hand, is a different story...


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Katie Drake said:


> I don't really see what you're getting at. You're basically arguing that because _you_ don't think any Space Marine should be that tough, that Mephiston is a cheese unit that nobody should use? Is this right or am I missing something?


Yeah you are. The title of the thread.

What units are so cheese YOU almost refuse to play armies with them?

And I think mephiston is cheese

NOTE: the title doesnt say which unit can we all agree on is cheese or if cheese even exists. Just what unit YOU think is cheese


----------



## LukeValantine

Ok so his havocs are only 300+ years old or so, that is still damn old even by marine standards.


----------



## VanitusMalus

In my personal opinion there aren't any cheesy units or cheesy armies but there damn sure are a lot of cheesy tactics (note just because it's cheesy does not mean I won't play against it, gotta love a challenge).

The cheesiect tactic I use to pull was the shitload of IG missile launchers with three or four command units loaded with meltaguns, all sitting cozy in the background with lots of guardsmen in front to soak up the fire of the enemy. Oh I use to love when someone would drop their 5 man termie squad near my amassed legion of MLs. They would laugh saying "They have a 2+ save, they'll survive". Then before I would fire I would run this little five man unit with four Meltas up to them and hose down at least 2 if not more of them. Then shoot the shit out of the rest sure it took a third of my forces but the look on someone's face when their mighty 5 man 2+ save heroes evaporate before their eyes...well I can only say it's priceless.


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Thanks luke and @gen: i said "make up" fluff 

But to be honest i didnt know how old they were. I just had thought somewhere in the fluff there was something about the traitor marines of 40k being the same ones who fought in the heresy


----------



## Eleven

Stella Cadente said:


> 1
> 
> 2
> thats 2 options to build your list around, you said nothing about seperate heavy support choices


LR, Vindicator, oblitorator, predator

I guess paying attention even when reading my post in detail is not your greatest skillset. Only hvy support choice I didn't mention was defiler, but we all know how those are.


----------



## Eleven

Stella Cadente said:


> no shit, but you can use oblits and something else, you just don't need 9 oblits


I'm curious stella. When did my position officially change from "oblits are necessary" to "You must take 9 oblits or you will lose."

I usually take 4 oblits and a defiler in games of 1500 points. But I would be an idiot to take no oblits as you are claiming I should be doing.


----------



## Sephyr

I think Aun'va is cheesy as a french/swiss marriage between two gourmands. Seeing him on the table fills me with such existential sorrow and pity for my opponent that it causes my intense mental distress and throws me off my game. My units and dice feels my anguish and turn suicidal; Kharn will roll 1's serially, my vindis will scatter 12 inches onto my oblits, my plasma Chosen will hold their guns with the wrong side pointing forward and fry themselves in compassionate sacrifice. 

It's unfair, really.


----------



## gally912

Stella Cadente said:


> there different, there crappy because they just are, they would be great IF they had a close combat weapon to gain the bonus of having an extra one, and if most boards were not so obviously lacking in trees.


Stella, I think you're a pretty ok guy, but I just have to point out that Kroot are in fact great, as you say, because....

Kroot armed with their default Kroot Rifle...

count as having an extra CC weapon. 

Just sayin.


----------



## Stella Cadente

gally912 said:


> Kroot armed with their default Kroot Rifle...
> 
> count as having an extra CC weapon.


yes but before being pointed out of the FAQ, kroot may of had an extra CCW because of the rifle, but didn't have a CCW to start with to gain that bonus.


----------



## SonsOfVulkan

Warhammer 40k is quite an expensive hobby... not many people are willing to purchase an variety of units at greater amounts just so they can build many multiple experimental armies. 

Before one investing $300-900 on building a army. obviously they would do their research online and find an proven optimal army that they can use both competitively and for fun. 

When one play a game or a hobby, its more about having a good time and not always about winning/or losing(or is it?). Ofcourse winning feels better than losing, and why wouldn't anyone invest in an army that can yield them high win ratios even if its spammy? Who cares about what anti-cheese people think... they can cry me a river for all I care.


----------



## misinformed

Obviously, this thread made it's WBB roll...


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Yeah no kidding. Someone was bored


----------



## HiveMinder

For all of you who don't think cheese exists, try playing a 1500 pt game agains a 9 Dread BA list and then come talk to me. Fucking brutal.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

Stella Cadente said:


> yes but before being pointed out of the FAQ, kroot may of had an extra CCW because of the rifle, but didn't have a CCW to start with to gain that bonus.


Any model in the game has a close combat weapon. Claws, fists, teeth, helmet. Even an Imperial Guard Conscript, naked in the rain, will be able to attack once in CQC. 

Kroot have a base attack number of 2 due to having 2 CQC weapons.


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## Deathscythe4722

HiveMinder said:


> For all of you who don't think cheese exists, try playing a 1500 pt game agains a 9 Dread BA list and then come talk to me. Fucking brutal.


Done and Done.

9-Dread is a crap list, and last time i played it i lost a grand total of like 150 points in a 2000 point match. Its not cheese if it sucks.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Done and Done.
> 
> 9-Dread is a crap list, and last time i played it i lost a grand total of like 150 points in a 2000 point match. Its not cheese if it sucks.


What Deathscythe said.


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## Katie Drake

HiveMinder said:


> For all of you who don't think cheese exists, try playing a 1500 pt game agains a 9 Dread BA list and then come talk to me. Fucking brutal.


It's really not a problem. Meltaguns are good. If you're playing Tyranids I can see why you'd have a hard time, but that many Dreadnoughts actually hurts your chances rather than helps them in most matchups.


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## yshabash

A dreadnought spam really isn't the worst thing you can be up against...

as for the original question armies that I usually tend to ask the other player what they are using before I play usually are

nids: You'd be suprised how many win-at-all-costs lists you can make with this codex, that aside if the list isn't really like that and the other player isn't super strict on the rules I have no problem playing them even if I know I'm going to die its all in the name of fun

SM: being tau and not giving almost all of the armies no armour saves is really fun, darn you space marines and your 3+ saves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also some people that are really competitive can make facewrecker lists with blood angels and space wolves that are sometimes just too OP (I don't mind a little OP)


Necrons: My only problem is that from past experience necrons don't really make for very fun games unless you are playing a large game where they have some extra points (if your a necron player your probably thinking since when have necrons had spare points ) to field some of their funner to play units. Their core units seem to only work if you do the general necron strategy of walk towards you opponent, shoot, walk closer, shoot, walk closer, assault which doesn't really make for a very fun time.


Tau (when I'm playing my tau): *Sigh* well welcome to 5-7 turns of rolling dice to shoot 


Elysians: %^&* you 6's to glance fliers! 


Orks: when an ork player spams a giant mobs boyz the games usually aren't very fun unless your DE so you actually have the speed to outrun them (I would say tau since they have great mobility too but if tau get caught in CC.........)

That about does it for me


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## experiment 626

it's not so much cheesey units/armies, but rather cheesey players. there's almost always a way around any gimmiky, WAAC type list since every unit in the game has a weakness. it's simply that sometimes, you may not have the answer to hand in your list since you weren't excepting (or even knew) of such tactics/unit builds...

what makes a unit or army cheesey is the bastard using it! for example, against an eldar opponent at a tournament a few years back, he was playing a pts denial mechdar list. but it was the way he acted more than anything; gloating about how my drop guard (who weren't able to deep strike since the senario didn't allow it!) couldn't catch any of his transports... wistling as my MISSiles sailed by their targets all game... laughing during particularly bad shooting rolls... asking if i'd ever really tried playing the game before...
that's what makes a cheesey army! he then proceeded to pick off those units that could threaten him while i had little to no chance to do anything. (though i almost baged the objective untill some harlies decided otherwise!)

to me, playing like that, avoiding your enemy while insulting the hell out of them is not wargaming, just proving you're a spoiled, sad little shit who has no life!
i don't mind facing gimmiky/WAAC style lists, even if i know full well i'm going to lose horribly! but at least have the balls to respect me and not rub it in my face just because you copy/paste an internet list.

cheers!


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## C'Tan Chimera

I see a Blood Angels or Space Wolf army and I just go whistling off elsewhere. I never did have any sympathy for self inflicted wounds.


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## Son of mortarion

Eleven said:


> I'm curious stella. When did my position officially change from "oblits are necessary" to "You must take 9 oblits or you will lose."
> 
> I usually take 4 oblits and a defiler in games of 1500 points. But I would be an idiot to take no oblits as you are claiming I should be doing.


Really? An idiot, you say? I haven't used obliterators since 3rd edition, and I win with my chaos more often than I lose. Heavy support has only been an issue during one game, and that was an apoc game, and I didn't have anything that could reliably deal with a baneblade.

There are no "must-have" units, nor are there units that are so bad that you should never use them. most fall into the middle of good enough to work, but not so shiny that you have to resist the temptation to use them.

For me, obliterators aren't a good buy, I run death guard and am going to try to move every turn, having a unit that is slow and purposeless supporting my advance risks my advance bogging down. I also find dreads to be more amusing, especially when they nuke my own troops. twice.


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## Tim/Steve

experiment 626 said:


> to me, playing like that, avoiding your enemy while insulting the hell out of them is not wargaming, just proving you're a spoiled, sad little shit who has no life!
> i don't mind facing gimmiky/WAAC style lists, even if i know full well i'm going to lose horribly! but at least have the balls to respect me and not rub it in my face just because you copy/paste an internet list.


Avoiding the enemy is a perfectly valid playstyle, hell its even fluffy for eldar. Doesn't mean you have to be an ass about it though.
A lot of my armies rely on mobility rather then static firepower... and its true that some armies just can't deal with that, which to me just suggests that they're badly designed lists. The 40k fluff has examples of all sorts of different tactics, and the game should reflect this: means much more variety and stops us all getting bored.


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## Djinn24

Ug, the darting chicken list. I do not know how viable it is now but in 3rd in a solid Sam-Hiem army it was one of the most annoying lists ever.

It was atthat point I discovered Whirlwinds .


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## Vaz

HiveMinder said:


> For all of you who don't think cheese exists, try playing a 1500 pt game agains a 9 Dread BA list and then come talk to me. Fucking brutal.


I'll run my 9 Multi Melta, 13 Melta and and 6 Lascannon List then shall I? Anyone can build a one dimensional list.


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## Imperators Warden

A list my buddy use to use when I first started. 9 Crisis Battlesuits. 6 with Plasma Rifles. I had a crap list back then though. 

Since then I have become a more fluffy player. My Space Marine Captain wants to win so I got myself two vindis and an auto las pred.


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## Stella Cadente

dunno why people seem to think the 9 dread list isn't cheesy, it fits the meaning of cheesy perfectly, poor quality, shoddy and lacking in subtlety


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