# Picking a Warhammer Army



## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

I've been playing Warhammer 40k for a few years and i recently decided to try my hand at Warhammer. I don't know anything about Warhammer armies so I was wondering if you guys could help me pick one that would be good for a Warhammer beginner. I play Chaos Space Marines and Blood Angels in 40k, and I was thinking High Elves or Dark Elves for Warhammer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Mal


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Go with what you like the look of. The game is so random that only Beastmen and Bretonnia struggle to win, and that's because they are overcosted and lack the ability to remove the randomness/inherent weaknesses that other armies can overcome in some manner.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Go with what you like the look of.


I second that; you will be painting quite a few of your core choice, and the need to make them rank up will mean they are very similar.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Appearance is everything in Fantasy Battle.

If you hate painting it, you'll hate playing as it.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Let's talk about High Elves.

The game is divided into four phases, Movement (which includes charging!), Magic, Shooting and Close Combat in that order. You'll generally want to ask yourself which of those phases excite you the most and pick an army that's good at your two favourites.

High Elves have a strong movement phase and are very strong in the Magic and Close Combat phases, but our shooting is sub-par.


All High Elves have a special rule: *Speed of Asuryan*. That means that, regardless of initiative they Always Strike First (ASF). In addition, if the Elves' initiative is equal to or higher than the enemy's, they reroll to-hit.

In Fantasy, Greatweapons grant +2 Strength to wound, but make the wielder Always Strike Last (ASL) - a bit like a 40k powerfist. High Elves ASF _regardless of weapon_. Even with Greatweapons, we hit first.

That means high Elves almost always hit (high natural init means we have rerolls most of the time) and almost always wound (our good troops have STR4-6 due to weapons carried).


This is not nearly so powerful as sounds, since elves are weak and have thin armour, but it is cool, and very flavourful. We are very very glass-cannon. We hit first, and kill lots, but if the bad guys survive, they kill lots back.


We have good stats, even basic Core are WS/BS4 I5 Ld8, and it only goes up from there. We also have movement 5 across the board, and that combined with our small numbers mean we can mostly out-manouver the other guy in the Movement phase.

We pay for that by having some of the most expensive troops in the game.



The High Elf force is actually one of the least cookie-cutter armies in the game right now. No two people agree on just what the ideal list is, and in fact, most people differ significantly. That's nice.

However, there are some common elements.

Your typical High elf army is led by a Level 4 High Elf Mage.

Like All High Elf Magi, he has an extra+1 to Dispel enemy magic (for +5 total) which is very very useful. He has good leadership (9) and like all elves, he moves fast and has good initiative, with Always Strike first (not that you want him in CC).

High Elf Mages may choose from _nine_ Lores of Magic. More than any other army in the game. They may use their own Lore of High Magic, or any of the eight Lores in the main rulebook.

(Most armies have access to only a few core Lores, some have their own Lore as well or instead. Only High Elves have their own Lore AND access to all eight core Lores)

High Elves also have some of the best wizard-enhancing magic items in the game, such as the silver Wand which grants an extra spell, and the Banner of Sorcery which adds an aditional d3 Power Dice to our casting pool, making for a very strong Magic Phase, or the Annulian Crystal which reduces the enemy's casting pool _and_ buffs our dispelling pool.

We don't have the best magic in the game, or the best anti-magic, but no other army comes close tou our combined magic/anti-magic.


High Elf combat characters are not the best in the game, but have a number of key advantages.

Unlike anyone else, Elves may wield Great Weapons (+2 Strength) without the initiative penalty. In fact, even with a Great Weapon, Elves Always Strike First - that means not only do Elf characters hit hard, they hit first. 

High Elf magic items mean that a fighty elf Lord will often have a 2+ rerolable armour save, 4+ ward (an invulnerable save that can be taken in addition to armour), a 2+ Ward against fire and will often make the enemy reroll suuccesfull armour and ward saves.

Since a Great Weapon is so useful to us, our Characters almost never nead a Magic Weapon, which frees up points for other magic items, of which we have a lot of good ones.


High Elf Core Troops are normally a large block of spearmen or several small units of Archers, or a blend. All our core troops have excellent WS and BS Always Strike First and usually re-roll to-hit, allowing them to go toe-to-toe with even the elite troops of other armies. Elf spearmen and Seaguard always fight with one rank more than any other army's Spearmen allowing for a huge volume of attacks.

Our core troops also have high Leadership (8). Elf spearmen with the spell Mindrazor (use Leadership instead of strength to wound) make other armies cry for their mummies. Yeah, 51 STR 8 reroll to-hit attacks will do that.

Oh, and in Fantasy, STR modifies armour saves, so STR8 rannders any save of less than 2+ worthless!


High Elf Special however, is where we truely shine.

First, unlike any other army in the game, we can field more than two of the same kind of Special and Rare units. Hell yeah.

Swordmasters are like an elf-shaped buzzsaw. WS6, STR5, I5, two attacks each, Always Strike First. See that hoard of badguys. Boom, gone. Next.

White Lions. Yeah, that's right, they're lion-strangling lumberjack Elves. Strength SIX! Stubborn with a 3+ save Vs shooting. Our go-to Monster Killers.

Phoenix Guard. *Four. Plus. Ward*. (remember, in fantasy, Ward (Invul) saves are taken as well as Armour, not instead. These guys have 5+ armour and if that fails they still have that 4+ ward.) Only Strength four but with that Ward, add in the Banner of the World Dragon (unit is utterly immune to magic) and you have an anvil that will survive anything.

Dragon Princes may just be the best heavy Cavalry in the game. 2+ armour AND 2+ ward against flaming attacks, Elven Steeds (faster than other horses, and twice as elven!) Two attacks at WS5/I6 Always Strike First, STR5 on the charge.



High Elf Rare units are all about Great Eagles.

To quote from one of my regular oponants 'Those Eagles aren't strong, but they're so annoying!'

Yes. Yes they are, that's how you know I'm using them right. Whether it's hunting war machines, blocking marchers, preventing charges or just getting the hell in the other guy's way, Eagles are there.


High elves are not a top-tier army, but they are hugely fun to play. They have a massive list of funky tricks and really reward the technical playstyle.


Elf Weaknesses are resistance, discounting characters and cavalry, nothing in our army has an armour save better than 5+. All Elves are Toughness 3.

All elves are on 20mm bases, and cost a lot of points, typically around twice as much as a human with a similar role. Small bases and high points mean we have about the highest points to area ratio in the game and that hurts when templates start flying.

We are also weak in the shooting phase. We have expensive, mediocre Archers and one very overcosted war machine.

We are also almost always outnumbered both in terms of units and models. We have good Leadership, but if even one of your units does run, that is a massive problem from which you mightn't recover.

As good as our Magi are, they are very expensive. (The downside of army-wide ASF is that we pay for it, even on models that should not be in combat, like Magi and Archers). We can really dominate the magic-phase, but expect to pay up to 25% of your total points to do it.


Model-wise, we have some of the best, and some of the worst models in the game. Our Archers and spearmen are just plain ugly. Damn they are ugly. and you've got to use them... feels bad, man.

On the other hand, Dragon Princes are superb - a real joy to paint and they look ace on the table. Our Dragon is also a sight to behold.

It's definately an army that will let you have fun as a painter or converter.


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Go with what you like the look of. The game is so random that only Beastmen and Bretonnia struggle to win, and that's because they are overcosted and lack the ability to remove the randomness/inherent weaknesses that other armies can overcome in some manner.



Shoot I was hoping to recruit someone into either of those armies....but you also forgot Wood Elves, they're below both bretonnia and beastmen


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Azezel said:


> Dragon Princes may just be the best heavy Cavalry in the game. 2+ armour AND 2+ ward against flaming attacks, Elven Steeds (faster than other horses, and twice as elven!) Two attacks at WS5/I6 Always Strike First, STR5 on the charge.
> 
> High elves are not a top-tier army, but they are hugely fun to play. They have a massive list of funky tricks and really reward the technical playstyle.


Agree with the post apart from these 2 things.

Dragon princes are awful in comparison to other armies cavalry. Blood Knights and Chaos knights will waltz through them.

Teclis leading a 'Phoenix and spear castle' style army is incredibly strong. Especially if he has a Lvl4, book of hoeth mage as a playmate and Caradryan as a guard dog.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Dragon princes are awful in comparison to other armies cavalry. Blood Knights and Chaos knights will waltz through them.


First off - I'm pretty sure that Chaos Knights cost more than Dragon Princes (not sure about Blood Knights) - so one'd expect them to come off better 1v1...

However, comparing units in two different books in a vacuum is not useful. To judge how good a unit is one must ask what they bring to the army, and how they synergise with the army.

The best Heavy Cavalry (or in fact, best anything) is not the that with the highest stats, or lowest points, but that which brings the greatest advantage to the army of which it is part. And Dragon Princes, played right, are a huge boon to High elves.



Orochi said:


> Teclis leading a 'Phoenix and spear castle' style army is incredibly strong. Especially if he has a Lvl4, book of hoeth mage as a playmate and Caradryan as a guard dog.


Teclis should be using all the power dice every turn, so adding another Archmage (assuming you're playing a 3'340+ point game where such a combo is legal) is a waste.

Teclis _is_ powerful - very, and the most competative WAAC High Elf list will almost certainly include him. However, _even_, Teclis (a toughness 2 elf with no saves, he's not exactly hard to eliminate for a competent opponant) isn't enough to defeat the true top dogs if the generals are equally competent.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

1) Cost is not a particularly relevant point. 5 Chaos Knights may cost 50pts more than 5 Dragon Princes - but the fact still remains that 1) Cavalry suck, and 2) Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are better, especially on a point for point basis. The only benefit that Dragon Princes really provide over the other two (which more than make up for their deficit comparatively) is there resistance to Flaming Attacks.

As for Wood Elves - not really. Ask Tim/Steve about them. Their maneuverability and S4 Bows with Move and Fire murder pretty much everything.

Hell, Treekin are quality sans Flaming Attacks.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Dragon princes are merely Silver helms with resistance to fire (and 12 points more for that fact).
There is no situation in 8th, or indeed any edition with the current high elf book, where Dragon princes would out perform Silverhelms by any great margin.

So yes, actually, comparing Dragon princes to Chaos knights and blood knights is a perfectly valid point. As weak as cavalry is, those 2 listed units get the job done to a firm degree, Dragon princes do not.

Chaos knights to marauder horsemen, two completely different units.
Blood knights to Black knights, two completely different units.
..
Dragon princes to Silver helms....both fulfill the same role. With little difference I might add. I can almost get 2 silver helms per dragon prince. 

And, as I said, if you're buying cavalry units in a HE army that you wish to win, then you're playing the wrong army.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Erm, no. +1 Attack, +1 WS, +1 Initiative (giving rerolls to hit against Lord level Initiative) +1 Ld, 2+ Resistance to Flaming, 7 points more (after the shield), as well as the option for a Magic Banner if you want to use them.

Cavalry are bad enough, but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever you'd choose Silver Helms over Dragon Princes aside from "because I want to".

I don't mind debating a point, but fuck me, you're so far off the mark it's embarrassing.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I'm of the opposite viewpoint, well almost.

Neither silverhelms nor DPs are worth taking.
DPs are better for dealing damage, but I wouldn't take either as a killy unit. If you want a tarpit then you are taking them for a 2+ save rather then other stats... so you might as well choose the cheaper option and take more models.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

To the original point, in comparison to the High Elves, the Dark Elves share many traits but are a completely different feel. They also are mighty in the movement and magic phases, but their magic is more destructive, both for the enemy and for you! They can sacrifice models to boost their power dice. Also the DE rely on light, fast moving troops and scouts to disrupt the enemy, rapid firing Crossbows and Bolt Throwers to wear them down, lots of awesome Monsters like Hydras, the legendary Cold One Cavalry to break opponents, and lots of HTH attacks from the Corsairs and Witches. And you need to get it all done fast because the same low T and armor saves still apply.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah- DE have the big slappy hydra, agressive magic and huge amounst of low strength dakka. Its a nasty combination if you can co-ordinate its use effectively.
HE are a much more straightforward army with solid combat units that'll tear their way through most things, good magical defense and decent offense, but they lack the dakka of DE in general or the pure killy power of an affordable monster (eg star dragons are way better then hydras, but also 4 times the points... and yet a hydra is much more resilient to cannon fire).


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Anyway, I noticed no one discussed Dark Elves. 

I think that the points on High Elves are good. I would favour Dragon Princes over Silver Helms due to better stats and ward save to flaming. With this unit, go big and use it for a character of leave it at home but some High Elf players still find this unit to be valuable in dealing with certain units. 

There have been a number of questions on High Elves addressed in this part of the thread in the past few months, so search for some of the longer posts. The biggest problems with High Elves are:
1. Over costed core: your spearmen, sea guard and archers are each about 1 point or more per model too expensive for 8th edition due to GW over-valuing ASF relative to other armies now being able to step up and hit back against poor AS and T3 models. IN 8th edition, you now must spend 25% of your total points on core and that forces you to spend more points on non-optimal units. 
2. Limited rare options and lack of viable monsters beyond dragons that are too expensive in 8th edition where cannons can kill them too easily. 
3. Inferior scout and skirmish options relative to certain other armies. 
4. Reliance on magic to cure/hide weaknesses of the army. Magic is fickle in 8th edition and inevitably one can and will blow up the archmage. 
5. Reliance on special characters and combos to remain competitive that are not popular and not fun to play with or against. Bunkering Teclis or an archmage with Book of Hoeth in a folding fortress with a huge unit with BSB with a banner of world dragon and some other characters will keep you from losing but will not win many fans. A lot of tourneys and comp systems ban Teclis and the Book of Hoeth and often also limit the size or use of a folding fortress or limit how many models can fit in a building (30 max or 10 per floor or similar limits) specifically to address this abusive build. In tourneys that reward sportsmanship, the broken combo of Teclis in a folding fortress with the BSB having the banner is an automatic bad game vote from many players, which should tell you something about how unpopular this army build is among experienced players. 

For these reasons, despite the excellent ASF always rule that benefits fighting characters and special units especially, high elf armies do struggle to win in competitive situations and are more limited. We are seeing a decline in the popularity of high elf armies in our area in competitive tournaments for the reasons stated above. 

The Dark Elf army also has tricks and is gaining a reputation as one of the toughest tier one armies available. Your characters and units generally have hatred (meaning they get to re-roll to hit in the first turn of combat). You have a decent flying skirmisher unit in harpies, scout and skirmishers in shades, and viable fast cav in dark riders. You have the option of a death hag with a cauldron of blood that can bless a unit each turn (5+ ward save, +1 attack, or killing blow) and is stubborn and hard to kill (4+ ward save). You have one of the most, if not the most, undercosted monster in the hydra. You have viable heavy cav with cold one knights with the ability of a BSB to allow re-rolls of LD tests. You have the ability to equip and protect your characters better than almost all other armies. In fact, a dreadlord with a 1+ armour save and pendant of khaleth and crown of command is extremely hard to kill except with a few magic lores (those that would without armour saves and without a strength value) and attacks (terrorgheist). You also have some of the best magic offensive items in a sacrificial dagger and a decent defensive item in ring of hotek if used properly. You also have some of the best BS shooting in the game with repeater crossbowman that are cheaper than high elf archers but get to double-shoot with armour piercing shots and have better armour options. Your units will generally have high leadership but most will be prone to panic tests. You also have some of the better special magic items and magic banners in the game. 

That being said, a dark elf army is not an automatic win and requires a lot of experience with deployment and movement and tactics to avoid a lot of difficulties. What we are seeing in competitive tournaments in our region in the US over the last year is dark elf armies doing on average the best of any of the fifteen WHFB armies being played but generally not winning tournaments due to suffering one loss or a draw in a five or six round tourney. With the new rules, the sole shooting war machine, the repeater bolt thrower, is of less value (only two models manning the machine means only two wounds) relative to other war machines. Absent the hydra, your troops are all T3 and not very strong (S3 except certain characters, cold one knights and executioners-which strike last) and have flaws. An inexperienced dark elf player playing the most optimal builds is likely to lose more than win, as a result. Thus, this army will force you to learn all the aspects of the game while giving you an advantage generally over most other armies. Of course, in 8th edition, that can be said of nearly every army now. 

Also, despite some of the comments above, we are seeing some people having success playing brettonian armies and wood elves and even some success with Beastmen armies in 8th edition. With the new Ogre Kingdoms and Orc & Goblin books for 8th edition making those two armies more competitive, the competitive environment is suprisingly balanced, as long as some restrictions are in place.


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