# SMs superior to Jedi? Sci Fi Pissing Contest



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

1) So when comparing Jedi/Sith to SM/CSM (Astartes) who has the upperhand?

2) Can a Chapter and its Fleet best a Destoyer Fleet of Clones and Jedi Generals?

3) Chapter Master/Chaos Lord (including Libraiun CMs and Daemonic Gifted Lords) vs Jedi Master/Sith Lord?

In this corner the Angels of Death.











Vs the Force Masters.











So debate!


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Id go with SM as there tougher, can take more damage and still on to win. While the jedi rely on too many fancy tricks.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If you take Starkiller, he would make any marine in existence his bitch, but TFU is basically a Jedi on superdupper force-roids. A Jedi is probably better than your average SM. 

40k universe functions on an entirely different scale, they would crush the SW universe, and it's fleets.

I would say a Sith Lord or a Jedi Master. Why? Because they are fucking ridicules. Sith Lords would face fuck them, that is all I now.



Hammer49 said:


> Id go with SM as there tougher, can take more damage and still on to win. While the jedi rely on too many fancy tricks.


Toughness is slightly irrelevant when someone passes a 100million degree plasma column through your torso. Just saying; light sabers make power weapons their bitch. <--- My obscenely nerdy statement of the day.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

> 1) So when comparing Jedi/Sith to SM/CSM (Astartes) who has the upperhand?


1 vs 1 marine vs jedi (or sith vs csm) - there is no comparason. The jedi would win hands down. The marine cannot hit him at range as the jedi simply deflects or dodges the bolt rounds. Only slight issue for the jedi is that the bolt rounds are explosive, so they either have to catch them really early, or avoid them completely. Jedi strong with the force could also simply deflect the bolt rounds.

In close combat there is no comparason either. The marines weapons are unable to parry light sabres as they would cut straight through them and power armour would only prolong the fight to a few thrusts as apposed to 1 thrust.



> 2) Can a Chapter and its Fleet best a Destoyer Fleet of Clones and Jedi Generals?


Interresting - if I leave aside the troops and start with the fleets - well I think the Jedi win that one as well - marine fleets are not very large, 1 battle barge (or 2) a few strike cruisers and some escorts, compared to 10s of star destroyers would not be a very even fight.

However ship to ship individually I would say that a super star destroyer would take a battle barge, but other than that its pretty equal through the ship size ranges.


A chapter vs a jedi and clone troopers - thats a hands down win for the marines -the clone troopers simply are no where near as good as marines, and a jedi would fall to massed bolter fire. I susspect a marine company could easily take 1000+ clone troopers.




> 3) Chapter Master/Chaos Lord vs Jedi Master/Sith Lord?


Again, similar to 1 - the marine has a massive disadvantage in as much that the jedi can read his thoughs, he cant parry the jedis weapon (possibly a power sword would work, just about) and the chapter master has no access to the force and would in most instances be force crushed from 200m+ away.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I wonder about Librariuns and Sorceror or even GKs/DPs vs a Master or Sith Lord. Warp powered Astartes have Halos and Daemonic Inv Shields, warp powers to cast about, and PWs for the Sabers. Thats why I added the #3. I might have to re word that better.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Don't edit, it makes all the answers before your edit look out of place. Anyway, I would still give it to Force wielders. They can unleash the full fury of their powers while the warp touched must hold back. A Force user has freedom, that gives them the edge.


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## darkbubba (Apr 20, 2011)

Hmmm.... I have to go with the Space Marines. Consider the Grey Knights. They are designed to deal with psychic powers. While the light saber is effective,"The Revenge of the Sith" and "Attack of the Clones" proved that Jedi can be overcome especially since their numbers are light. I think that a battle barge can take a star destroyer or super star destroyer. Their shields are no match for cyclonic torpedoes and in "Return of the Jedi" a single rebel fighter destroyed the super star destroyer with a suicide run into the bridge.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

darkbubba said:


> > Hmmm.... I have to go with the Space Marines. Consider the Grey Knights. They are designed to deal with psychic powers.
> 
> 
> Is the force 'psychic' powers? I would question it is really, its certainly not psychic powers as they work in 40K (access to the warp and all that).
> ...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

If it helps, the ONLY reason the A Wing was able to crash into the bridge was because the Super SD Shields were completly down. Thus allowing the A Wing to smash into the bridge.

Just saying it takes more than a single solid object to bring down the shields of a Star Destroyer.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

darkbubba said:


> I think that a battle barge can take a star destroyer or super star destroyer. Their shields are no match for cyclonic torpedoes and in "Return of the Jedi" a single rebel fighter destroyed the super star destroyer with a suicide run into the bridge.


 a super star destroyer is 3-4 times the size of the barge and has literally thousands of weapons and fighters and troops, and as was already pointed out the local shields vanes were down when the sensor dome above the bridge was destroyed and the a-wing that hit the bridge was out of control so it was destroyed by sheer luck,if the death star hadnt been nearby it would have just floated around until it could be brought back under control


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Maidel said:


> 1 vs 1 marine vs jedi (or sith vs csm) - there is no comparason. The jedi would win hands down. The marine cannot hit him at range as the jedi simply deflects or dodges the bolt rounds. Only slight issue for the jedi is that the bolt rounds are explosive, so they either have to catch them really early, or avoid them completely. Jedi strong with the force could also simply deflect the bolt rounds.
> 
> In close combat there is no comparason either. The marines weapons are unable to parry light sabres as they would cut straight through them and power armour would only prolong the fight to a few thrusts as apposed to 1 thrust.
> 
> ...



Just my thoughts, but people seem to be way over estimating Jedi. They aren't that powerful, and died en masse to clone troopers.

They are basically priests that can fight and use trickery, whereas SM's are genetically created to be the ultimate weapon, THEY are a weapon. They can fight and kill despite heavy wounds that would kill normal humans, and fight in such a way that it isn't that big of a deal for them.

Space Marines win hands down and easily.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Boy, those force users sure do get more ridiculous with every new installment. Sure does make Old Ben Kinobi and Luke look like total newbies. 

Oh, this isn't a topic about the destruction of a setting through "OMGAwesomesauce" over-use?



Oh.



Also, space marines like nobodies business. Librarian trumps Jedi. Did you even watch those fights? Sith were owned by normal troopers.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I did this story in another space marine vs jedi thread.
(Theese two are popular)

Here's the battle on how i see the fight should go.

"[Loading battle]
Arena....... industry area.
Weapons....... Lightsaber, bolter, combat knife, chainsword, force powers, frag grenade.
Ranks....... Knight, veteran battle brother.
3
2
1
START!

As the automated door opened as the robed figure entered, with a wave of his hand the door closed behind the man, hissing and stopping with a silent thud.

The robed figure keeps walking trough the greasy hallway, heavy machinery litter the area, also large metal crates gives plenty of cover for his advance.

His mission was simple, get to the terminal and download the data for......

Without any warning, the wall explodes, a massive armoured form crasches trough the concrete/plasteel wall, 30cm thick.

Concrete rubble and iron supports fly trough the large dustcloud from the dry concrete that slowly letting the huge armoured form appear.
A dark green armour, with black linings, on his shoulder, the shape of a burning salamander head.

..... after entering the manufactorum, the armours machine spirit needed to reawake.
The inbuilt signum detects something in front of him.

The space marine rises, about a metre taller than the robed figure in front of him.

In front of the massive warrior, the robed figure removes his hood, revealing his identiy...
A Kel'dor.

-Death to the xenos! The space marine quickly raises his bolter and fire at the agile jedi.

The Kel'dor quicky take cover behind a large curved piece of machinery. But quickly realise that the weapon of his adversary is the most destructive he has seen of it's size.
And barely jump out of the way as the curved machinery is destroyed by the withering hail of bolter shells.
He is tossed to the ground and strewn with small hot dirty pieces of metal and plastic, trying to stand up the jedi feels a heavy tread on his chest.

Feeling his triumph over the alien, the space marine aims his bolter at the head of the alien under his foot.

Sensing his doom the jedi search his inner feelings, and suddently.... he sees it.

A huge mining machine with a huge hydraulic arm is just a few metres behins them.
With a flick of his hand the excavator suddently swings around and smash into the marine.

Caught unaware the marine is swung by the force of the turning machine.
And as both of the combatants scramble to their feet, the marine talks in his vox.

-I have encountered an unidentified alien creature, the target is a psyker..... yes, he will not live to see daylight again.

The armoured beast can talk? Fascinating. The Kel'dor thought, not used to theese kinds of brutes caring for advanced speach or tactics, this should be an easy battle.

The jedi unsheath his lightsaber, a blue light is cast over the area.

-The enemy is armed with a type of power weapon, will proceed with caution....

With that heavy armour, my enemy will be severely hampered, i will be able to dodge his slow attacks easily.

-Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!!!! The armoured "man" suddently yells and sprints with chainsword raised towards his target.

-Oh snap. The jedi utters before having to do a fast backflip in order to not beeing annahilated by the sheer strength behind the blow.

The rooaring chainblade crashes into the ground, its obviously sturdy design somehow survived the strike and the marine fired his bolter onehandedly while rising.

The jedi quickly moved a metal crate in the way, almost 1,5 metre in heaight it should be enough..... DODGE.
Surprised the jedi realises he has to dodge the bullets crashing trough even theese heavy crates with enough explosive force to even penetrate theese kind of boxes.

Behind the jedi, the crate is severed in two and collapses on itself as the marine follows the jedi with well aimed bolter shots, small craters is riddled behind the fast moving jedi becouse of the repeated explosions from the bolter shells crashing into the plasteel walls, shooting out small amounts of debris after the unbelivably fast sprinting xeno psyker.
With a sudden surge the jedi lunges with a high jump towards his adversary, just as the marine raise his bolter to blast him apart in mid air the bolter runs out of bullets and the salamander curse his ignorance and throws it at his enemy.

The jedi counters with a force blast sending the bolter crashing into his chainsword arm setting the salamander marine slightly off balance, thinking this will be an easy finishing blow, the marine suddently swing with his other arm, hitting the jedi in his midsection, luckily for the jedi, the marine didn't get his full strength into the blow.

So instead of eviscerating the jedi with the strike, he is just flung 5 metres away.

There was no time to reload, the marine charged with his chainsword, the jedi doing a fast spin to get up quickly, the marine swings with fast blows, which the jedi in his slightly disoriented and overwhelmed situation is barely able to dodge, his lightsaber lying 3 metres to his right.

This speed is not what i expected from this brute, i am barely able to dodge his strikes becouse of the short interval betwen the blows.
Focusing his mind he calls for his blade, recieving it just in time to meet with the rooaring chainweapon of his enemy, severing it in two, and rolls away.

Turning around and studying his weapon, the marine discards it and draws his knife.
-You got my chainsword... xeno scum, then i will have to defeat you with just my knife!
The marine said tauntingly to the jedi.

His knife? That's almost the size of a camorrean axe?

The combatants lunged at eachother, exhanging quick blows and dodgning eachothers attacks.
Even with that heavy armour, he is still able to mova like that? The jedi wonders, and barely dodge an upwards swing from the "knife".

Now was his chance, with a quick slash the jedi was able to chop of the left hand of the armoured beast, his knife hand.

-Give up noble adversary, i have defeated you, i will let you go! The jedi said to the "man" holding his severed arm.

-You think you will defeat one of the emperors finest that easily? The armoured giant said with a slight humourus tone.
Without warning he grabbed a small device and threw it, sensing the danger the jedi quickly jumped away.
The frag exploded, sending the jedi flying from the shockwave, the marine cowering his visors from the flying debris from the blast.

The jedi saw an oppurtunity, springing off from another excavator he slashed at the head of the armoured giant.
The marine barely avoided, his helmet severely damaged, falling off as the marine did a fast spin missing the xeno with his clenched fist.
The fist crashed into the wall behind the jedi, they were now mere centimetres from eachothers, staring into eachothers faces.

-You are a human after all? The Kel'dor say surprised.

-No............ The salamander grabs the xeno by his jacket.

-I AM A SPACE MARINE!!!! The space marine rooars as he throws the jedi towards one of those inconviniently placed neverending holes.

The jedi crashes into the steel floor, tumbling and not getting his footing or grip until he falls down the hole, barely holding on to its edge.

The marine slowly walks forth to the alien, standing above it like a dark giant.
The light from above only letting the Kel'dor see his sihluette.

-Prepare to die...... the marine utters as he raises his foot to crush the hand that the alien is using to hang on.

But with a mighty leap, the jedi flies up from the hole, never seeing the like before the marine is caught unaware and recieves a grivious wound on his chest.

Landing behind the space marine, the jedi look back, only to see that after a wound that would have severed a man in 2, and after the loss of his arm, the space marine was still walking towards him, with hateful eyes.

-FOR THE EMPEROR!!! He yelled and lunged towards the jedi, managing to grab his arm, he crushed it with his vice-like grip, and held to the floor.
But the jedi, had one last trick up his sleeve, which the space marine found out very soon.

The blade of the jedi had penetrated his chest, the damage was irrepairable, and he felt his life seep away from him.

Just managing to slip away to not get crushed by the giant, the jedi limped off, holding his ruined arm in pain.

He had managed to best his adversary, but barely.
Moving to finish his mission at the computer central, the jedi opened another door and.....

BLAM!

The xeno fell dead before his feet, fell by a psycannon bolt, not even a psyker could sense that coming.

His work done here, the grey knight left a small beacon for the salamnders to find, letting them know where their fallen brother was.

Outcome....... slight jedi win."



Why? Because in those vids we are mostly seeing special character jedi's, and comparing them to box standard space marines (spehs mahreens) which is not really proper. Espescially with starkiller. Who is the most powerful jedi ever IIRC.

I instead look at the guys in the movie, for example the guys jumping into the arena when obi-wan, anaking and the chick is fighting the green thing and lots of troops barge in.

The normal jedi vs the normal marine.

The jedi will win, but will often be wounded in the progress for the reason, they are not used to fight eachother, and a bolter is dangerous.


As for ships.
The 40k ships are so much bigger and more dangerous than the clone ships (the super mega death thingy is later, and not a republic boat so i presume it's the republic fighting here? And the super death thing is bigger, i give it that)

Example boat, Acclaimator assult ship. Very basic size-wise. No one can argue?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acclamator_I-class_assault_ship
750metres long, 450 wide. With properly scaled guns. (which are awesome in the movie, laser shots with shells? awesome )

40k boats are very large, they make star wars ships appear as small midgets 

Example boat. Cobra-class destroyer, smallest 40k war vessel, common in all fleets.
http://www.merzo.net/ (goto x10 scroll down, here a battleship, a star destroyer and a cobra is listed, seems proper enough) the star destroyer and a cobra is listed as roughly the same, hm, never knew star destroyers was that big.

Compared to them, even an escort is bigger than the republics cruisers and have bigger guns.

The question here comes to fleet size.
A marine fleet is not much to talk about, a few ships. With escorts in around 5-20.

How big a republic fleet is i have no clue, but it's most probably bigger.
So the republic will have to resort to hit and run since the 40k boats is way sturdier (both size and shield wise) and the marines will mostly have to make sure they don't run out of ammo. Which they most probably wont.

I cant seem to find how big a standard going republic fleet is, but i guess the 40k would win since they are so much more resilient, bigger and dish out more pain.

Ship wise, 40k. Hands down on ship to ship. (Cobras carry torpedoes that instakills 40k escorts, the fury interceptor is huge and has banks of lascannons,http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor 60-70 metres seems like an overstatement though, but it's a cool picture, the republic has the kinda cool x-wing thing with a few blast thingies, 40k win again.)

Infantry, 40k has more crew when boarding, plus they are much more savage and mostly use shotguns and boarding armours, we haven't even brought in the fact that space marines are around.

Jedi are a few per ship at best IIRC, space marines mill about in hundreds on the cruisers when they decide to go for a ride.

So it's a hard time for star wars.
Star wars beeing as cool as it is, can't really compare to 40k.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ahahaha, D-A-C, do you realize what you just said? lol "A Jedi can't dodge a missile bolter round, they can dodge a laser." My fucking god, that is brilliant. They can dodge a beam of light, but not a rocket? :laugh: 

Ok, despite that gem, this isn't an argument anyone can win. You have 40k fanboys, like D-A-C, and you have SW fanboy, like me. lol Not going anywhere. 

However, D-A-C, explain to me how power armor can block a 100 million degree plasma column?


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## darkbubba (Apr 20, 2011)

I was just thinking that in most books that I have read battle barges and cruisers can take out whole planets with their torpedoes. The only weapons, unless I am wrong, that a star destroyer or super possess are lasers. I am not sure that they can take out a planet. The death star of course is an exception. As to 1 to 1 combat sm vs. jedi, okay I concede to the jedi. As for size comparisons between a super and a battle barge, honestly, I will admit that I don't know, although the battle barges in the Horus Heresy books and others seemed to be able to carry alot of assault craft and tanks and apcs and were described as kilometers long. This whole sci-fi comparsion thing is fun.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

SSD are beyond anything 40k has as far as battle ships go.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Although how common is the super star destroyer?

I can start to throw blackstone fortresses at it if you want to?

Perhaps i only need to throw in a ramilles class star fort, i'd guess those are also more common than the SSD.

Point is, SSD IIRC is not their standard cruiser, and i've only ever seen one in the movies.
And only know it to be one. Although i'm not well versed in star wars.

If you say they are way common i'd be confused, as i've never seen any source that depicts this.

So i pit standard republic or imperial boats, vs 40k boats.
I could also throw in a space hulk with orks on it or an entire craft world, could the oh so wonderous SSD take that by itself.

I'd guess not since several of the 40k cruisers can't take them down, and the biggies are very resilient.

I'm not trying to bitch on star wars, i'm trying to get a few facts down (as few as they are)

SSD versus a 40k battleship, SSD might as well win, why not, i have no clue what guns it has, but it's sure big and will probably take some serious pain (unless a fighter destroys its shield ball ) and can probably dish out alot of PEW PEW PEW lazorz.

Thing is i am fairly (and by fairly i mean very) sure that the SSD is a very uncommon ship, as for the battleships of 40k they are rather common, battle barges are as big as battle ships and they are also rather common.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Ahahaha, D-A-C, do you realize what you just said? lol "A Jedi can't dodge a missile bolter round, they can dodge a laser." My fucking god, that is brilliant. They can dodge a beam of light, but not a rocket? :laugh:
> 
> Ok, despite that gem, this isn't an argument anyone can win. You have 40k fanboys, like D-A-C, and you have SW fanboy, like me. lol Not going anywhere.
> 
> However, D-A-C, explain to me how power armor can block a 100 million degree plasma column?


Well, I think what I was getting at was:

When you watch Star Wars the jedi don't dodge lasers ala the Matrix, all super fast etc, what they seem to so is run in a straight line towards the enemy twirling their lightsabres and miraculously making everything miss. 

Try running towards a bolter twirling your lightsabre, you wouldn't be able to deflect all those missile projectiles.

Also, as a fanboy of Star Wars, surely your aware that Jedi are portrayed as being the most awesomest things ever!!! When in actual fact as I pointed out they were wiped out pretty much all in one go by some clone troopers. 

As for a lightsabre, how does he get close enough to use it without getting shot?

How does he have reflexes quicker than a genetically modified super being ... the force?

As I also pointed out, Space Marines have a gland that allows them to spit acid, so get close at your own risk.

All throughout the fluff of 40k its at pains to explain just how much more powerful a single Space Marine is compared to a human, its not even a close call, they are superior to such an extent that they are viewed as divine angels / supernatural beings half the frickin time.

Jedi are people with a high white blood cell count ... sorry I mean mini whateverthefuck count, so the fact is they don't stand a chance, not even a remote one. A complete planet of Jedi would have been easily swept aside by a Space Marine Legion.

Finally the fluff of the two universes is totally different. Star Wars is a lame, kid friendly piece of rubbish filled with ethnic stereotypes and cuddly bears that can beat stormtroopers. 

In the 40k universe the shit has hit the fan ... big time. Its dark, unwelcoming and there are no real hereos, just varying shades of darkness all depending on your perspective. 

Thats my opinion anyway.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Well, I think what I was getting at was:
> 
> When you watch Star Wars the jedi don't dodge lasers ala the Matrix, all super fast etc, what they seem to so is run in a straight line towards the enemy twirling their lightsabres and miraculously making everything miss.
> When you can't block, you dodge.
> ...


P.S. 40k is full of stupid as stereotypes and bullshit, and I love it despite those things. However, I certainly won't rag on another series for having them as well.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

The space marine moves 3x faster than the Jedi. The Jedi might be able to survive the shots from the bolter, maybe even cut the chain sword in half, but the follow up attack (the back hand from the arm that swung with the chain sword) would likely break the rib cage of the Jedi, ending the fight. ANY contact made by the space marine would break bone. Heck even in your story the space marine had a boot on him and knew it was a psyker, he would have smashed the crap out of him with a stomp.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

A question for the people in this thread:
Are we just assuming knowledge from the movies, or are we looking at the entire star wars cannon?

@Klomster
A SSD was fairly common as command ships of fleets. Their were different sizes of SSD's, with the largest being escorted by smaller SSD's. They ranged from 4km's in length to 19kms. There were well over 100 of these (some sources list over 1000, but I'm dubious), with the larger ones being less common.
SD's ranged from 500m to 4km's. They (and SSD's) were called Star Destroyers not because they were destroyers (e.g. SSD's ranged from cruisers-> battle-cruisers->dreadnoughts), but because they could destroy an entire star system on their own.
@darkbubba
Laser's are not the only weapon SSD's/SD's employ. Yes they have laser cannons/turbolasers/superlasers, but they also have concussion/photon missiles, and ion cannons. The superlaser can crack a planets crust, while the turbolasers can reduce a planet to molten slag given enough time and enough of them. However, the super laser was rare (only on the biggest SSD's and Death Star's).

Lightsaber V power weapon: I would say that a power weapon would be able to parry a lightsaber. Energy shields (and certain materials in the SW verse) are able to stop a lightsabers, so I imagine an iron halo/power weapon would be able to.
As for deflecting bolter rounds, when they are running towards a foe, they don't just "twirl" their saber, they purposefully swing it to intercept any projectiles coming their way. As for what would happen when they do intercept it? Well it is a plasma arc...

Have more but NCIS calls....


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> The space marine moves 3x faster than the Jedi. .


Im sorry - simply where do you get this?

Im a space marine fan as much as the next guy - but thats simply ridiculous.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Space marines would win hands down. All they need to do is stand atop of a gentle slope.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Space marines would win hands down. All they need to do is stand atop of a gentle slope.


HAHA

Although I would like to point out that it only works against another jedi...


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> HAHA
> 
> Although I would like to point out that it only works against another jedi...


Yes, but everybody knows that laser swords, force lightning, force push, force pull, mind-tricks, acrobatics, and common sense are completely useless when your enemy has the high ground. All you can do is jump right at them and hope that your body is more powerful than their thousand degree laser sword.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Yes, but everybody knows that laser swords, force lightning, force push, force pull, mind-tricks, acrobatics, and common sense are completely useless when your enemy has the high ground. All you can do is jump right at them and hope that your body is more powerful than their thousand degree laser sword.


Yes...

And also everyone knows that when you are the 'chosen one' you will of course become an arogant little twerp with a lazy eye and a whiny voice.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Yes...
> 
> And also everyone knows that when you are the 'chosen one' you will of course become an arogant little twerp with a lazy eye and a whiny voice.


It is fun watching him get burned to death though. It's probably the best part of the prequel.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

No the best part of the prequel is when Jar Jar gets evisorated and hung drawn and quartered.

No. wait, thats what I WANTED to happen...


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Interesting to know about the SSD.
So it's like star wars version of a battleship.
Well, i haven't really read about how devastating a star wars boats cannons (and other whatnot is) i just look at what i know from both verses (SW movies, BFG, other source material for 40k) and can state that 40k weapons are shitloads dangerous, and SW are PEW PEW PEW. They are probably alot more devastating than that, but i haven't read up on source material making me biased towards 40k.

And in the story i created the space marine didn't kill him when he had the boot on the jedi's chest to create a badass scene, with powerposing.
It would have been a boring (and not correct) fight if he had died there.
So, for powerpose.

For that is why we love these universes, it's alot of powerposing (although different, but we can still respect both)

And i totally love mustafar, it's such a cool world and the cgi dudes made a really good job on it.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I'd tend to give it to SM's for the majority, and if we take the jedi performances form the animated _Clone Wars_ series it becomes a no contest. Weren't there various instances of jedi getting punked by normal humans (or aliens with similar physical capabilities) with nifty gadgets? Well, Space Marines are gigantic superhumans with nifty gadgets.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

The Jedi would be too busy trying to feel the force to notice the jump pack space marine drop out of a thunderhawk and land on his head.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> 1) So when comparing Jedi/Sith to SM/CSM (Astartes) who has the upperhand?
> 
> 2) Can a Chapter and its Fleet best a Destoyer Fleet of Clones and Jedi Generals?
> 
> 3) Chapter Master/Chaos Lord (including Libraiun CMs and Daemonic Gifted Lords) vs Jedi Master/Sith Lord?


1) One on one got to give the edge logically to the jedi/sith over SM/CSM. The high resilience and super armor are of SM's is irrelevant against a enemy that can crush your brain in your skull or cut through your armor like it wasn't there. Also at range a jedi/sith can dodge, deflect, denigrate the fairly slow bolter rounds particularly at long range.

2) Don't know enough about the general the capabilities of either force on this scale so I will have to abstain from addressing this question.

3) Now this would be a more interesting fight considering that both entities would have the equivalent of invulnerable saves, and protection from the influence of the other. SO got to say it would be 50/50 and the deciding factor would be armaments, and relative skill level.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Whats the source of the 7km to 19 km ssd? IRRC a starr destroyer is classed at 3km long and an ssd is 7km. at return of the jedi there where 7 ssd's in service. an ssd is an upgraded star destroyer with the same class of weapons just mroe of them. a battle barge has bombardment cannons, and most of them are 8km to 10 km long. The normal battleships of the imperial navy are said to also be 8km- 10 km long. battle barge or batleship an ssd is outclassed in terms of size and firepower as battleships and battle barges mount larger weapons and more badass weapons than the cruisers or lesser starships. 

A space marine can totally take out a jedi. you get to see sith getting pwned by a normal clone trooper in the above movie. a space marine is many times more powerfull and battle experienced with more powerfull weapons. If u want to bring in special characters, tigurious or mephiston would own the crap out of luke skywalker, palpatine, vader, or most other sith lords, or jedimasters ive heard of. tigurious touched the hive mind of the tyranids. reckoned to be one of the most powerfull human psykers in the imperium and he is a space marine.mephiston beat the black rage is widely regarded as a ridiculous powerfull psyker. they dont call him the lord of death for nothing.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Tigurius is nothing but fanboy bullshit written by the prince of twats. You want a proper SM psyker? Have a look at Ezekiel or (as you correctly mentioned) Mephiston. But there's still even shit going on with Mephiston...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

doofyoofy said:


> Whats the source of the 7km to 19 km ssd? IRRC a starr destroyer is classed at 3km long and an ssd is 7km. at return of the jedi there where 7 ssd's in service. an ssd is an upgraded star destroyer with the same class of weapons just mroe of them. a battle barge has bombardment cannons, and most of them are 8km to 10 km long. The normal battleships of the imperial navy are said to also be 8km- 10 km long. battle barge or batleship an ssd is outclassed in terms of size and firepower as battleships and battle barges mount larger weapons and more badass weapons than the cruisers or lesser starships. .


Super star destroyers are not a single class of vessel. There are about 20 different varieties of super star destroyer.

However the one from the films is 19km long (vaders flag ship). For more info read here (its fully sourced) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought#cite_note-sbp1-5

by the end of the battle of endor there were 100s of super star destroyers (thats offical, it was in the dark empire source book).

A full sized super star destoyer is more than a match of a battle barge.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

It depends on the rank, experience and powerfulness (Is that even a word?) of both sides in question.

If you pitted a new Jedi recruit against a new Space Marine recruit, depending on your sources, the Space Marine would win - and not just because the SM is picked at an older age than the Jedi.

However, as you get veteran Jedi (Like Obi-Wan, Starkiller etc), then the fight really depends on the ability of Lightsabers to cut through Terminator Armour, assuming as this is what the Chapter Master / equivilant to Jedi Master will wear.

And if you're talking about armies, a company of astartes will wipe the floor with any similar amount of Clones/Droids etc.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Well, I think what I was getting at was:
> 
> When you watch Star Wars the jedi don't dodge lasers ala the Matrix, all super fast etc, what they seem to so is run in a straight line towards the enemy twirling their lightsabres and miraculously making everything miss.
> 
> Try running towards a bolter twirling your lightsabre, you wouldn't be able to deflect all those missile projectiles.


Lol what? There are plenty of times in the movies where the jedi is standing still and only reacting when a laser is shot at them. There is a whole lightsaber martial style dedicated to predict and reflecting bullets. 

That being said Id choose a jedi in a 1v1 fight any day. They are far more mobile and have both close and long range advantage. In a mass fight id probably go with sm's if they had the right weapons.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

But they also don't wear armour, so are pretty at risk of catching fire...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Qui-Gon took ages to carve through a metal bulkhead in the first Star Wars film. I'm guessing that Power Armour/Terminator Armour is stronger than whatever material the Federation (Keep wanting to call them the Covenant) use for their bulkheads, and I doubt the Space Marine will stand still and wait for the Jedi.

I think a lot depends on the race of the Jedi. After all, some Space Marines have centuries of experience with their chosen weapons, whereas a human Jedi will have around 70, maybe 80 depending on how old they are. However, Yoda was 900 years old, so he'd have more combat experience than most Marines.

In the Dawn of War II intro, the Farseer uses something like Force Lightning and it kills a normal Battle-Brother in a few seconds. The power armour is shown to conduct electricity in the same video, and thusly I think that Lightning would do more damage to a power-armoured Marine than it would to an unarmoured target (Like Lore of Metal for you Fantasy fans).

The Space Marine has many biological advantages. He can simply submerge himself and make it an underwater fight. This isn't a great disadvantage to the Marine, as he just switched his lungs from air mode to water mode or simply wear his helmet, but the Jedi will either have to come up for air or use the Force to keep himself from drowning, reducing his power (Again, assuming he's human). Force Lightning doesn't work underwater (Well, it does, but it'd roast the Jedi too), and neither does a Lightsaber. Chainswords and fists do, however. In addition, Space Marines can see in the dark. In a dark environment I think thta the Jedi would have to use some of his power to create a light source, weakening him.

Midnight


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

This the problem with versus thread about so widely represented topics. There are far to many different representations of the subjects powers. On one hand, you have the first star wars series with luke and kenobi, where luke struggles moving a 1 ton door, then we have starkiller, who can rip a star destroyer out of the sky from hundreds of miles away. There is no baseline. Anyways starkiller destroys pretty much every mortal in 40k except the emperor and maybe the primarchs.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

What the hell is this? A 40k site or a Star Wars site?

The amount of people backing Jedi to win is frickin ridiculous. Jedi are regular humans / xenos with varying degrees of psychic ability. 

In all major scenes with multiple groups of Jedi, you don't see them going all crazy with powers, they rely almost totally on their lightsabres. Plus is anyone forgetting that Jedi aren't supposed to go around crushing peoples necks with the force, thats the Sith, the Jedi seem to move objects, confuse people and generally use non-lethal powers.

The fact is Jedi are still regular humans, whereas Astartes are bio-engineered weapons. They are basically humanity perfected into the ultimate personification of violence, killing, death and destruction. 

They are bred to kill EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that stands in their way, Jedi on the other hand are not trained exclusively for combat, but negotiation, peace, meditation and all that hippy rubbish nonsense.

In the 40k fluff it is an established fact that Astartes make even the strongest human look like a child, they are so far beyond them that it isn't even challenge, a handful of Astartes can board opposing enemy ships and take out everything in their path. They can drop pod into the very heart of the enemy forces and rip them to shreds. They are literally death. 

Jedi's are a bunch of hocus pocus teachers with a magic coloured wand, some stupid philosophy and as we have seen in pretty much all the films are whiny little b*tches. 

Your telling me that crybaby Anakin who is supposedly, oh so powerful, but who is saddled with mommy abandonment issues is going to take out a Astartes, give me a freakin break.

The one advantage Jedi's have over Astartes is some latent psychic ability.

Do you mean to tell me that in the 40k universe everytime a Astartes meets a human or xeno with some connection to the warp they lose?

How the heck did they manage to even get the Great Crusade started if thats the case.

Astartes are bred to fight, kill and win, Jedi have a high whatthefuck count and are hippys. They lose all the time everytime.

Rant over!!!!

:biggrin::threaten::headbutt::angry::ireful2:k::grin::victory::laugh::secret:


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

The problem is that it's been posted on a 40k forum. Anyone posting these topics can't seriously hope for a fair debate. Still, my opinion on the fight: 

This fight's like Marv vs Kevin. The latter is quick enough to be a big problem but if the former manages to pin him then he's in deep cuss.



D-A-C said:


> They are bred to kill EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that stands in their way, Jedi on the other hand are not trained exclusively for combat, but negotiation, peace, meditation and all that hippy rubbish nonsense.


The Custodes too are also trained in various skills such as political etiquette as well. Makes them no lesser cuss-kickers.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Qui-Gon took ages to carve through a metal bulkhead in the first Star Wars film. I'm guessing that Power Armour/Terminator Armour is stronger than whatever material the Federation (Keep wanting to call them the Covenant) use for their bulkheads, and I doubt the Space Marine will stand still and wait for the Jedi.


I really think you need to watch that again. Qui-gon was cutting through a bulkhead about 2-3ft thick (judged by how much of his light sabre showed through to the other side) in about the same amount of time it would take a human to use a sharp knife to cut through canvas.

When it started to take him a long time was when the blast doors closed and they were in excess of 5ft thick! (his lightsabre didnt show through to the other side, hence it has to have been in excess of about 4 and half feet long). The marine would have to be walking behind 10 inactive storm shields to even come close to that effect.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> What the hell is this? A 40k site or a Star Wars site?
> ......... Neither? Well, there is a section devoted to 40k, but is isn't just for 40k.
> 
> The fact is Jedi are still regular humans, whereas Astartes are bio-engineered weapons. They are basically humanity perfected into the ultimate personification of violence, killing, death and destruction.
> ...


icknose::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> icknose::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh:


:goodpost: 
Everything he said, and then a bit more.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Here comes a Jedi running towards the Space Marine. Space Marine rises his stormbolter, fires a burst of shot. *BOOM* The Jedi gets his ass kicked.


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Without addressing 1 or 3, I have to give fleet combat to anything in the 40K universe, simply due to scale. 
In the Star Wars universe, the maximum effective range of even the most powerful capital-ship mounted turbolasers or torpedos is measured in hundreds of meters. Sensor ranges are similarly short, being somewhere in the vicinity of a few dozen kilometers.
A 40K-universe standard lance battery or cannon battery mounted on a capital ship or escort has an effective range measured in hundreds of _kilometers_. Torpedoes can go even further. Sensor ranges can encompass entire systems.
Ultimately, even outnumbered and outgunned, a 40K fleet would be able to take on practically anything in the Star Wars universe, because they would be firing on them before they were even in sensor range.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Oooh, that's a ver important thing i've missed out.

So 40k can sit and snipe at the poor star wars sods while the poor jedi have no clue what is happening to his fleet.

That gives 40k a HUGE advantage in fleet battles.

The jedi is still gonna win in CC, and i'm a 40k fanboy.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I really think its... Strange that everyone just goes by the Movies as what Star Wars is.. I mean were all nerds here, if you like Captain America in PA in Space fighting Space Orcs... your a nerd. Yet alot of guys posting seem to NEVER played a Star Wars Game or read a Star Wars book. Lucas films have reached every major country in the world, 1 in 100 people I know ever heard of 40k. Strange....

Anywho heres the Star Wars sources for a SSD http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Star_Destroyer

Heres for the SD http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Destroyer

As for some Jedis feats in MODERN canon (not the way back in the day SW movies) watch the trailers for the games and read some of the books.


Also Acid Spit is sush a biths power when I can pull Astartes Strike Cruisers from space and slam them ontop of the SM as some Jedi can....



Just saying. Jedi stand a chance for sure.

Hell even where the argument of a Jedi getting their ribcage smash from a punch, look at alot of the scenes of Jedi falling 50-80 feet and reaceving bruises, or being smash thru solid steel and rock and be back in the fight, or even suffering gernade/rocket explosions that kill 3-5 troops but leaves gashes and burnt flesh on these Sith fuckers. 

Also Mandlorians weapons/tech like in this vid really add weight to the ARC Troopers / Mercs that acompany and outfit the Clones. 





Now personaly I see Chaos Lords (espicially Badasses like Typhus) kicking the shit out of many Sith and Jedi alike. Librariuns like Sarpedon come to mind with enhance body and powerful raw Fear power could also kill many Jedi/Sith.... well Jedi... Sith are fucking scary.

I also belive Tatical SMs are equal footing of Jedi Padawans. Espicialy if they have a PW of some sort.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes, those that say that space marine auto-win is not taking fluff into consideration.

Although the standard knight is far from able to throw around combat vehicles with ease, unless he really really really goes for force powers and then... he's not really a standard knight IMO.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

i think comparing a standard space marine to a jedi/sith isnt really a fair comparison. now a librarian/runepriest/chaos sorcerer/greyknight would be. thats like saying that a clone trooper is better than a standard guardsman... well yeah. is he better than a inquisitorial storm trooper or even a space marine scout, hell no!


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

so the vid with the mandolorian she kills a bunch of jedi, boba fett in the books and comics is responsible for the death or capture of a bunch of normal jedi. A space marine is definately more badass and better skills, faster, and more deadly than any mandolorian and they take out normal jedi all the time. So it stands that a jedi would get owned by a space marine. im not sure about the sith, dont know too much about them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Boba Fett and that girl are both exceptional cases. Using them as the norm for a mandolorian is stupid.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Actually there is ALOT of "exceptional" Mandolorians in the Books. Boba Fett made Mandolorians so popular that the BEST mercs happen to be them, the Clones gear and Armore are Mandolorian type, and the Clones themselves (including Omega Squad, ARC Troopers) are mostly trained by Mandaolorians. KotaR most vicious enemies are the cloaked Mados.

So they're pretty much badass when compared to the standard SW soilder.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Actually there is ALOT of "exceptional" Mandolorians in the Books. Boba Fett made Mandolorians so popular that the BEST mercs happen to be them, the Clones gear and Armore are Mandolorian type, and the Clones themselves (including Omega Squad, ARC Troopers) are mostly trained by Mandaolorians. KotaR most vicious enemies are the cloaked Mados.
> 
> So they're pretty much badass when compared to the standard SW soilder.


Yes, and they are the best of the best.


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## Cold86 (Sep 24, 2010)

Ok, well lets have a thread at least we can all agree the 40k universe would whip the shit outa such as 40k vs Star Trek...

i could just imagine an Ultramarine battle Barge bearing down on the Enterprise. Or some punk red shirt firing his electric razor (woops sorry i meant phaser) at a Dark Angel Chaplain.

Itd also be sweet to see a bunch of Borg up against Necrons!


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

ok so the chick and boba fett are extremely awsome, it still doesnt matter, they are going to be slower and weaker when compared to a space marine. so it still stands if they can pwn jedi then a space marine definately will.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I was under the impression that Boba Fett was such a good jedi hunter not because he was a particularly strong/tough/fast individual, but because he was so underhand in his methods. Not that I know much about SW, but underhand tactics would seem (at least IMO) to be quite effective against a Jedi.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The lightsabers of a jedi are just condensed laser beams that focus their energies through a crystal matrix or something like that. 

It's very low-tech in the WH40k universe and would not scratch Terminator armor and I'm pretty sure regular SM power-armor can deflect las-shots easily but with a focused beam, perhaps it might prove inadequate.

Someone mentioned that the Jedi can use their force abilities without consequence when in fact, that's exactly what the Sith do which leads to them becoming insane, etc. 

The Force draws on microscopic particles and is very reminiscent of the Warp and both have their consequences if abused.

Any SW fans correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure only very strong force users (yoda, etc.) are able to lift heavy objects with their abilities and SM, especially clad in power-armor are quite heavy.

Overall the Jedi got owned at one point by clone troopers/robot soldiers so I don't think they're that powerful as some people assume.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Any SW fans correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure only very strong force users (yoda, etc.) are able to lift heavy objects with their abilities and SM, especially clad in power-armor are quite heavy.
> 
> Overall the Jedi got owned at one point by clone troopers/robot soldiers so I don't think they're that powerful as some people assume.


Yep, but they do feel like they are lifting it, was it yoda or luke in the 2nd that lifts up a x-wing....

What about fighter vs fighter battle?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im going to squash this whole "they were punk by clone soilders" thing. Jedi can read minds and sense feelings of intent. Even the lame showings in the movies show this. Why was the Clones able to punk them? Because the Emperor instilled Order 66. MOST Clone Troopers are not evil, good, bad, thoughtful, or any strong feeling/self thought. They were Bred as weapon (Like SMs) and worked with the Jedi for many years forming close ties. Yet Order 66 was instilled in them so the moment the Jedi least expect the Clones would turn on them IN the Battlefield. 

So to recap...
1) The Jedi couldnt sense anything from their robotic like troops.
2) The Jedi veiwed them as friends at the time of betrayle.
3) Only a handful of Jedi were killed and those were in Battlefield conditions. (Yoda sense the betrayel at the last sec, and he survived)
4) Half of the Jedi were actually killed in the temple by Anakin (the baddest Jedi) and all the elite forces of the Republic. Even then it wasnt a easy fight. 

So I hope those who dont really know what the Clone pwnage was about.



locustgate said:


> Yep, but they do feel like they are lifting it, was it yoda or luke in the 2nd that lifts up a x-wing....
> 
> What about fighter vs fighter battle?


Even in Episode 1 its explain the force is waning, not as strong as it once was, so Luke had trouble lifting a X-Wing. After the Force balance is restored Luke is like that Force Unleash guy. Dragging Star Ships out of space.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

If you check the rest of the thread i put up a fury interceptor.

X-wing = dead.

Tie-fighter... please, don't even bring it.

Apart from one single thing..... star wars fighters are very small, only way they could live is for 40k fighters to not be able to hit them (seems hard when 40k has longer range and more firepower)

All in all, only thing that cn save SW is dodging like mofo's.
40k can soak most of the standard stuff, fighters with rockets or similar can probably bruise up the furies kinda bad.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Im sorry - simply where do you get this?
> 
> Im a space marine fan as much as the next guy - but thats simply ridiculous.


Jedi look to me to move as fast as a normal human and in most every book with a space marine in it, the space marine moves faster than the human can react.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> Jedi look to me to move as fast as a normal human and in most every book with a space marine in it, the space marine moves faster than the human can react.


Ok...

How many space marines can dodge laser bolts?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

JelloSea said:


> Jedi look to me to move as fast as a normal human and in most every book with a space marine in it, the space marine moves faster than the human can react.


Well I think that is the problem right there. You read BL books but none with SWs. You are right about the observations of Jedi. They do move at the normal speed for a agile fast human. However they can enhance their speed, strength, physical abilities via Force. This is again dependent on how strong (or area of expertise) the Force is with them.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Well I think that is the problem right there. You read BL books but none with SWs. You are right about the observations of Jedi. They do move at the normal speed for a agile fast human. However they can enhance their speed, strength, physical abilities via Force. This is again dependent on how strong (or area of expertise) the Force is with them.


I would also add its a 'stylistic' thing in the films.

George lucas didnt want the later films (Earlier time wise) to stand out from the orginal trilogy. If he had made all the star wars films post the matrix, I almost garantee that they would have been made with some super slow mo bits - as it stands, the jedi just look 'graceful' rather than 'superhuman' - which is actually quite 'nice' to watch, rather than just a huge special effects shot.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I would also add its a 'stylistic' thing in the films.
> 
> George lucas didnt want the later films (Earlier time wise) to stand out from the orginal trilogy. If he had made all the star wars films post the matrix, I almost garantee that they would have been made with some super slow mo bits - as it stands, the jedi just look 'graceful' rather than 'superhuman' - which is actually quite 'nice' to watch, rather than just a huge special effects shot.



True that. I for always hated the Basball bat Lightsaber Battles Darth and Luke had.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> True that. I for always hated the Basball bat Lightsaber Battles Darth and Luke had.


You mean the ones where they clearly arent trying to hit each other, rather trying to hit the others light sabre?

when compared to obiwan vs darth maul, it does look a little ridicullous


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

The biggest reason the fight scenes are better in the new trilogy (one of the only things improved, in my own opinion) is that in the original trilogy, they were making it up as they go along.
By the new trilogy, an entire Jedi fighting style had been developed (based very strongly on Kendo) and the actors were actually trained in how to fight, or already had training (Christopher Lee is a competition fencer, and his light saber prop was designed around that different fighting style).

Back to the original topic at hand, I again don't want to try and address the differences in skills or physical talent between a Jedi and a Marine, as they vary so wildly, but the tech is more well defined.
1. Blocking bolter shells with a light saber: This is a skill in the 40K universe that can be taken in the Inquisitor specialist game, and can be used by anyone with a power or force sword who has the skill. This implies that Jedi would likely be able to do it with a Light Saber as well, but most likely so could a particularly well trained or talented Space Marine.
2. Parrying/blocking light sabers: Within the SW universe, there are weapons and armor made with a "cortosis weave"that allows them to block light saber blades without being damaged. It does this because it possesses the property of being impervious to both heat and energy, much like the ceramics that are used in the outer layers of Space Marine armor and combat knives. As such, a light saber would have a very difficult if not impossible time penetrating Heresy-pattern or newer power armor, and could be parried with a combat knife without serious damage.

Just to start another line of discussion:
3. Mooks vs Mooks: Imperial Guard vs Imperial Storm Troopers
Discuss.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I know SM armoe has some defence vs heat/energy, but they do Sqaut against Meltas. Same for Termies and that is what a Light Saber is, its a Melta beam in constant form. I just dont see how in gods name a SM armoe (that gets cut up with Chain Swords) can withstand that at all. Or a Force Push, Choke, Lighting, and Crushing.

Mooks vs Mooks. I think the Clone Troopers have better armore, training, and gear. Now if the Titan legion get involved....


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

An average space marine would one on one probably loose to a jedi, they can move things with their mind. So kill you without having to go anywhere near you. But you would be an idiot to think that the Jedi wouldn't be in for the fight of their life. A space marine usually has a few hundred years of battle experience and superhuman reflexes and durability. 

A librarian it would be a different story. Librarians are arguably more powerful than a jedi, depends on the jedi/sith and the librarian/sorcerer, and the librarian/sorcerer has the massive advantage of the astartes training and physiology. 

If it was a 'everything in 40k vs everything in SW universes' it would be hands down 40k. The nature of 40k is a galactic scale unending war that has sustained itself for more than 10,000 years. Things exist in 40k that can not be defeated.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Well, 1v1 a standard jedi vs a standard SM the jedi would win. Very few if any weapons can survive being hit by a lightsaber and it just cuts through everything. So strike one, bye sword. Step two, bye pistol. By the third hit the marines dead. Think of it this way, a Howling Banshee vs a SM banshees normally win. Jedi are banshees with super weapons that cut through everything and the force.

Ship vs ship, im not sure. SW ships are really big and stuff and dont have to rely on the warp, and they have lots of weapons. SM barges are big too and have Omnissah, but id say Star Destroyer vs Barge destroyed wins.

SM kill clones easily, as clones are basically Imperial Guard with better armor and more discipline. As previously said, 100SM vs 1000 clones SM win albeit with heavy losses. Jedi Master vs Chapter Master probably Jedi again because they have the force and lightsabers, and also much experience. Yoda died at 900 years old, average was probably 50-300 for Masters. Maybe more I dont know.

Chaos Demon though I dont know, maybe Yoda could be one but maybe not too. Yoda has no "holy weapons" for anti-demons. So Id rather have 1 Jedi than 1 marine, but 1 marine than 1 clone or even 10 clones. They might kill him but its 1 death against 5-10 so worth it.

Tyranids vs Jedi + clones, dont make me laugh. Nids own them completely, numbers of 100k vs 100 after all theres no chance.
Orks same thing, and clones dont have the same discipline.
Eldar vs clones come one, clones dont know how to respond to that kind of harrassment. SM dont always.
DE eat the clones for breakfast and set their ashes on fire.
Tau destroy them before they get close if they attack first, but clones have good guns too. I think the turning point is the crisis suits.
Chaos Demons are immune (mostly) to las weapons which is clearly what clones have, although more powerful than guards.
CSM burn their entrails before they die.
Necrons scare the crap out of them by not dying, so they die.

am i missing anyone?

So Jedi win even fights, 40k wins against everything else, pretty much.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> when compared to obiwan vs darth maul, it does look a little ridicullous


Every saber duel looks ridiculous when compared to the Obiwan vs Darth Maul one.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

You know the sith could just BBQ them with force lightning....or Break there necks by moving his hand......or throw the bolter shells back at them......Hmm....Jedi would lose...But a sith would give any space marine a bad day.


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## Magicbox (Jun 2, 2011)

I think the problem in this thread is that people who are arguing against jedis have only watched the SW movies. They don't take SW fluff into consideration. If I hadn't read any
40k books and just watched the ultra marine movie, then I would be of the opinion that SM's suck big times. Same if you see that DoW trailer where SM's die like nothing. Especially that dreadnought that get killed by a single orc lol.

My money would definitely be on the jedi if you take both universes fluff into consideration.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah I pointed that out earlier. Most people just watched the movies and based everything on that. Again I think its very strange that most people in 40k never read a SW book or played a SW game. Its a very well known and popular Sci Fi universe. Its also the only universe that comes close to vastness to 40k. 

I do belive Sith more so than Jedi rule in 1 on 1 or army vs army match against Astartes. Its the DPs and Uber Librians I can see owning or holding their own vs Masters/Lords. Some DPs just wave their hands and your army is gone. 

Also some people mention that nothing in SWs could hurt daemons cause its not holy. There is nothing holy in 40K Daemons arnt really supernatural beings. There made of the warp, but in the Physical realm they can and are harmed by Las Guns. Mass Las Guns. Chain Swords, Knifes, and Fist have killed Daemons. How would the Orks beat them back? Or Necrons? They definatly dont have the Emperors light on them (not that it matters, he a psyker not a god, thus no holy) and there is no hint how effective Warp power is on the Force or vise versa. 

As for Nids there no problem either. Thats becuase Droids in SWs like the Droid Armies can be made Mass Produce to combat numbers. Also UNLIKE 40K were everyone fights everyone, the SW galaxy is pretty united and civil. Meaning the Nids wont be fighting humane colonies dependent on warp travel or Astropaths (fuck u Shadow thingy) but a Republic/Empire, millions of Alien Allies, thousands of Clones being grown in months, Millions of Droids being built, and Force users vs the Nids. Nids lose hands down. You know what it takes to beat back a Nid Fleet? Macragg, well the united Galaxy working together dawrfs that force 100,000 times.

Eldar would be interesting as they are like Jedi of 40k, only reliant on the Warp. DE Tech is superior to in many ways. But are still outnumbered million to 1 in military might.

Necs have great tech. So do SWs. Both have Faster than light travel, both ADVANCE AI, both have high tech weapons, and both have Planet Killer moons. Does the World Engine remind anyone of the Death Star? Anyone? SWs built theres first. Also SWs had 2 Death Stars. 40K had so far 1 World Engine. 

Tau.... dont make me laugh. There such a piss ant small empire. Better guns? Sure, but that never stopped Guradsman from rolling them or beating them up in CC for lunch money.

Orks would be a Uber tough call. I cant fathom how the republic would deal with them. I know how the Empire would tho. Later Planet.

CSMs are badder than SMs but still suffer from the same weaknesses and less high tech gear as the modern SMs.

So I belive that covers that. My point is SWs universe has a huge advantage over the 40k verse. 
1) Its more united. 
2) Enemies are besieging on all sides. Again more focuse and able to bring bear. 
3) Droids and Aliens play a big role. There is no single Race like 40k fighting wars with no hope of teaming up with. They all worked together, act civil in most cases, do ally up to pull resources to fight a common foe. 
4) No warp. This is a advantage for SWs. Why? cause all there tech is not centered around it. The Warp is as much a liability when whole Fleets (Fire Hawks anyone) are lost or have to fear Daemons roaming around when a Psyker go nuts, or relying on Astropaths gettong clear messeges thru the turbulent warp.

ST have Space Fleets that are equal to 40K fleets and there smaller fighters have enough firepower to bring down cruisers. In a 40k vs SW as a whole match I say its very even.

Anywho.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah I pointed that out earlier. Most people just watched the movies and based everything on that. Again I think its very strange that most people in 40k never read a SW book or played a SW game. Its a very well known and popular Sci Fi universe. Its also the only universe that comes close to vastness to 40k.
> 
> I do belive Sith more so than Jedi rule in 1 on 1 or army vs army match against Astartes. Its the DPs and Uber Librians I can see owning or holding their own vs Masters/Lords. Some DPs just wave their hands and your army is gone.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to point out that you are getting a bit of topic as the original question as most interpret it is which force would win with relatively equal numbers, and on a one to one bases.

So stuff like super weapons that only existed in one instance, or the fractured nature of the GW universe are irrelevant to the question at hand.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I said anywho. Like most of this was offtopic but made in response to other posts anywho . My first few sentences were on topic. The next few are trying to support my second favorite universe from naysayers.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

Space marines everytime. 
Not becuase they are better or harder. But because they (and the whole fo 40k) is massively fatalistic.

The jedi probabaly will whoop the marine at 1st, but once he's got hold of the jumpy little bugger, vortex grenade. Insta-death on both sides.
Ok the marine dies, but as they are prepared to sacrifice themeselves for the emperor, technically it's a win(??).

Same goes for the other match ups, the imperials will happily die to beat the enemy.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

xNoPityx said:


> This the problem with versus thread about so widely represented topics. There are far to many different representations of the subjects powers. On one hand, you have the first star wars series with luke and kenobi, where luke struggles moving a 1 ton door, then we have starkiller, who can rip a star destroyer out of the sky from hundreds of miles away. There is no baseline. Anyways starkiller destroys pretty much every mortal in 40k except the emperor and maybe the primarchs.


Is starkiller even canon? He's from a SW game. I wouldn't really use him in this versus thread since he's only in a game. I couldn't really consider him canon in this case, since i'm assuming this versus thread is based off of actual facts about the books and movies.

I seem to remember there being an argument akin to this concerning the Blood Ravens chapter. They were only featured in the game, and one book about the game, and so people didn't see them as a true chapter. Same argument works here.

He may be in a book or two, but I have no clue because I haven't read that many SW books.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> He may be in a book or two, but I have no clue because I haven't read that many SW books.


Yup - 2 books and two audiobooks of those novels.

And, judging by how the second one finishes, they REALLY need to make a third (book) because otherwise they will be stricken from cannon because they leave the universe in an impossible fashion.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Emperor was being choked to death by Massive Ork Warlord, untill Horus saved him... Hes got nothing on Star Killer. I dont want to hear it, Emperor as fluff goes was being CHOCKED out by a Ork Warlord.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Hes got nothing on Star Killer. I dont want to hear it, Emperor as fluff goes was being CHOCKED out by a Ork Warlord.


The ork Warlord was hitting him with a wedge shaped piece of wood?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

More like the Emperor forgot to take his daily dose of Awsomeness. He ran out of Doses when he fought Horus.


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Starkiller is a Mary Sue among Mary Sues. His power level is such an outlier that including him in this discussion would be like supporters of the 40K side including The Emperor or C'Tan in their arguments. Lets leave the unique super special characters out of this and focus on Marines vs Jedi. There's already enough range among the "basic" individuals of both to make this an interesting argument.



Warlock in Training said:


> I know SM armoe has some defence vs heat/energy, but they do Sqaut against Meltas. Same for Termies and that is what a Light Saber is, its a Melta beam in constant form. I just dont see how in gods name a SM armoe (that gets cut up with Chain Swords) can withstand that at all. Or a Force Push, Choke, Lighting, and Crushing.
> 
> Mooks vs Mooks. I think the Clone Troopers have better armore, training, and gear. Now if the Titan legion get involved....


A Light Saber doesn't compare to Melta at all. The blade of a light saber is a stabilized Plasma beam, still powerful, but not quite Melta. The issue is that to keep from burning its user and to keep it stable, it is sheathed in an energy field, which causes resistance when passing through dense materials, and can even cause the blade to be deflected by especially dense or nonreactive materials (like ceramics). There are quite a few materials in the SW universe that are resistant to a light saber blade to varying degrees, I would imagine that the heavy ceramite armor of a Space Marine would provide some protection, though it likely wouldn't do more than slow the blade.

Additionally, a force or power weapon could easily defend against a Light Saber, as the power field that sheaths the blade is similar to the power field that stabilizes the Light Saber blade, and it is the interaction of these fields, not of the blades themselves that allow Light Sabers to parry each other. Similarly an Iron Halo, Rosarius, Terminator Power Field or the like would give almost total protection from a Light Saber, probably even more reliably than against more standard weapons.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> Additionally, a force or power weapon could easily defend against a Light Saber, as the power field that sheaths the blade is similar to the power field that stabilizes the Light Saber blade, and it is the interaction of these fields, not of the blades themselves that allow Light Sabers to parry each other. Similarly an Iron Halo, Rosarius, Terminator Power Field or the like would give almost total protection from a Light Saber, probably even more reliably than against more standard weapons.


But like everything else - none of that protects them from being force choked.. (or even chocked! )


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Also as tough as suppose TA is it seems to get destroyed very easily by Plasma, even in the books, which said Light Saber is. Nothing short of another energy field would really work well.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> Starkiller is a Mary Sue among Mary Sues. His power level is such an outlier that including him in this discussion would be like supporters of the 40K side including The Emperor or C'Tan in their arguments. Lets leave the unique super special characters out of this and focus on Marines vs Jedi. There's already enough range among the "basic" individuals of both to make this an interesting argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So we can't use Luke either? In one of the comics, he smashes two planets together, so I suppose he makes starkiller look like a bit of a pus, doesn't he?

Plasma yes? So like a plasma gun? Ap2= Dead marine. A light saber is theorized the have an approximate temperature of 100 million degrees F, which is somehow blocked by a heat shield of some sort, but if it makes contact with power armor it is going to go right through that ceramite like a hot knife through fucking butter. 

Terminator field only works 33% of the time, silly head.... and the 50% protection offered by the other two ain't grand either. Also, how many marines have those, exactly? Ans: not many. Anyway, it is slightly irrelevant considering the force wielder can pop his head in his armor from 200 yards, or whatever.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Actually there is ALOT of "exceptional" Mandolorians in the Books. Boba Fett made Mandolorians so popular that the BEST mercs happen to be them, the Clones gear and Armore are Mandolorian type, and the Clones themselves (including Omega Squad and Delta squad, and pretty much every other ARC trooper squad, as well as the regular squads (not sure), ARC Troopers) are mostly trained by Mandaolorians. KotaR most vicious enemies are the cloaked Mados.
> 
> So they're pretty much badass when compared to the standard SW soilder.


Yup. The Mandalorians chosen to train the clones were hired by Jango Fett himself if I remember right. Been a while since i've read the Republic Commando books. So basically, these mando mercs were some of the best in the SW universe. Still doesn't make them better than SM. 1 v 1 they could probably take out a SM (maybe, i'm not sure what gear they normally use) but in squad battle the mandos dont stand a chance.

But since they're mercs, I can't see them getting into 10 man squads. maybe 3-4 man.

As for above, Starkiller is way too fucking OP. 1 v 1 or 1 v 100, Starkiller would probably win. Pulling SD's from the sky? Come on, that is total bull crap in my opinion. Luke smashing two planets together? Same thing.

Though if we include Primarchs in this, then Luke and Starkiller would probably be some good choices to go against them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Though if we include Primarchs in this, then Luke and Starkiller would probably be some good choices to go against them.


Even if we included the primarchs, they wouldn't even stand a chance against a being that could pull planets out of their orbits. Power on that scale is beyond almost anything in 40k.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Even if we included the primarchs, they wouldn't even stand a chance against a being that could pull planets out of their orbits. Power on that scale is beyond almost anything in 40k.


I don't know: the Eldar were able to manipulate the universe and planets, not to the extent of actually shifting their gravitation etc, but they could do an awful lot.

Also powerful Daemon Princes of Tzeentch and other Chaos Deities to a lesser extent, could probably do what your talking about.

But then again, thats why 40k is superior to Star Wars. Despite Matt Ward's best efforts, no writer would be idiotic enough to enter a character into cannon that could manipulate planets on that scale.

Even though we are discussing entirely fictional universes, that idea just seems completely bogus and over the top.

Why not just call this 'starkiller' God and be done with it. 


But back to topic, everyone needs to stop saying that Space Marines would just get Force choked before the battle started. 

JEDI don't force choke people, thats a dark side of the force type thing. When have you ever seen or read a jedi just choking someone who decided to challenge the,

This is how a Jedi vs Space Marine Battle would go (Ironic considering who the SM would be lol). A good blaster at your side always wins.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> JEDI don't force choke people, thats a dark side of the force type thing. When have you ever seen or read a jedi just choking someone who decided to challenge the,


I can think of two jedi who have done regularly, and jedi who have used force lightning.

And all jedi use 'force push' and that can have an identical effect to force choke, accept it caves the persons chest in...

The 'dark side' element to force choke is that it is done slowly and painfully and is an act of torture, whereas simply crushing someones throat in an instant is not, and is no different to running them through with a light sabre, thus, not a dark side act.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Even if we included the primarchs, they wouldn't even stand a chance against a being that could pull planets out of their orbits. Power on that scale is beyond almost anything in 40k.


Now Ill defend 40k and say Magnus would be the best possible canadate here. He could efectivly take out a Titan, or even the entire SW fleet. Even on a small scale he could enter via warp and pull the soul out of their body to battle him in the warp, like Ahriman did. I can see Magnus and other Alpha Psykers (Soul Drinkers second book comes to mind) being even footed.



D-A-C said:


> I don't know: the Eldar were able to manipulate the universe and planets, not to the extent of actually shifting their gravitation etc, but they could do an awful lot.
> 
> Also powerful Daemon Princes of Tzeentch and other Chaos Deities to a lesser extent, could probably do what your talking about.


Agreed



D-A-C said:


> But then again, thats why 40k is superior to Star Wars. Despite Matt Ward's best efforts, no writer would be idiotic enough to enter a character into cannon that could manipulate planets on that scale.


HAHAHAHAHAheheheh :laugh::laugh::laugh: Are U Serious??? Titans the size of mountains. Planets being Virus bomb into oblivion by a SINGLE ship. Chaos Gods that cannot be beaten with unlimited numbers of Daemons overunning planets. Daemon Princes with "Magic". Lucius the Eternal turning into everything and anything when he dies. Mephiston ripping tanks apart with his hands and teeth. Any of the Primarchs and their feats. Orks that grow from the Ground. Necrons with all the BS tech like instant tranmission thru the universe. Space Vampires.... let that one sink in. 

Have you ever read Soul Drinkers Omnibus? The second part of the book is about a Alpha lvl Psyker who likes to play Nurgle (he was not in league with Nurgle, he was trying to become a Chaos god himself) with plague powers and control of the dead. He had Battleships that would fall apart if his constant will and power was not used to keep the ship lager than a SD together. His power REACHED over Star Systems. He was for lack of a btter word a powerful Alpha Psyker. 

Yet Force Unleashed is idiotic and BS? Ctan..... nuff said.



D-A-C said:


> Even though we are discussing entirely fictional universes, that idea just seems completely bogus and over the top.


Yeah all the things I mention above makes TOTAL sense and not over the top?



D-A-C said:


> Why not just call this 'starkiller' God and be done with it.


Why not call Emperor God..... oh wait he already is .




D-A-C said:


> But back to topic, everyone needs to stop saying that Space Marines would just get Force choked before the battle started.


Why not? Sith do this ALL the time.




D-A-C said:


> JEDI don't force choke people, thats a dark side of the force type thing. When have you ever seen or read a jedi just choking someone who decided to challenge the,


Yes they do and Sith do it as standard force using. Hell Jedi do ALOT of Force Pushing and crushing. Do you know why in Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith that General Grievus was all fucked up, coughing, choking? Its because on the planet his chest was Force Crush by Mace Windu. First move he pulled on Grievus. 




D-A-C said:


> This is how a Jedi vs Space Marine Battle would go (Ironic considering who the SM would be lol). A good blaster at your side always wins.
> 
> 
> Raiders of the Lost Ark - Why Guns Are Better Than Swords



That guy doesnt have super fast reflexes and Force powers. Hell that guy is probaly a Jihad, and they suck at everything they do. Even with guns they cant hit the side of a barn. Thank God. Also his swords was not a Lightsaber.

Heres a more acurate version of SMs with guns vs a Sith of high Caliber. 



 Pay attention to :58. Thats how it goes down.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok, so mace windu who is supposed to be a jedi master and reasonablly powerfull in relation to obi wan and yoda, does a force push on a cyborg with an opedn chest plate adn exposed heart, and he doesnt die. but a space marine in full armor with 2 hearts and the black carapace and hardened bones, who is designed for combat and can go toe to toe with orks in hand to hand and surive crushing shots to the chest because of his augmentations his going to get owned by a jedi? nope, especially if grievous can shrug it off, then a space marine def could.
as for force choke, a space marine is designed to keep opperating even if his throat is being constricted, they have 2 hearts and 3 lungs, what would b debilatating for a human or jedi, he is going to shrug off with out much effort.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

doofyoofy said:


> Ok, so mace windu who is supposed to be a jedi master and reasonablly powerfull in relation to obi wan and yoda, does a force push on a cyborg with an opedn chest plate adn exposed heart, and he doesnt die. but a space marine in full armor with 2 hearts and the black carapace and hardened bones, who is designed for combat and can go toe to toe with orks in hand to hand and surive crushing shots to the chest because of his augmentations his going to get owned by a jedi? nope, especially if grievous can shrug it off, then a space marine def could.
> as for force choke, a space marine is designed to keep opperating even if his throat is being constricted, they have 2 hearts and 3 lungs, what would b debilatating for a human or jedi, he is going to shrug off with out much effort.


LOL, you obviously have not been reading all the post, or you would know that Jedi dont just go for the kill. They rather incapacitate. just as why Mace Windu didnt want to kill the Emperor after he beaten him, till the Emp did the whole Force lightning and Mace then wanted to kill him cause he couldnt keep him down. Also a few things on Grievus, his heart was not expose at all, it was safley encase in the hard steel droid body untill Mace crushed his chest plate. Then Obiwan spread it apart to expose the heart.

Then you have Yoda and Dooku throwing 2 tons of rock around and yet it seems hard to crush the neck of a SM. You do know SM have been killed by SPEARS in the throat? Just saying.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

doofyoofy said:


> Ok, so mace windu who is supposed to be a jedi master and reasonablly powerfull in relation to obi wan and yoda, does a force push on a cyborg with an opedn chest plate adn exposed heart, and he doesnt die. but a space marine in full armor with 2 hearts and the black carapace and hardened bones, who is designed for combat and can go toe to toe with orks in hand to hand and surive crushing shots to the chest because of his augmentations his going to get owned by a jedi? nope, especially if grievous can shrug it off, then a space marine def could.
> as for force choke, a space marine is designed to keep opperating even if his throat is being constricted, they have 2 hearts and 3 lungs, what would b debilatating for a human or jedi, he is going to shrug off with out much effort.


You haven't been reading the thread much have you? Jedi masters have regularly shown to be able to manipulate and crush object weighing thousands of tons. Do you really think a space marine is more resiliant than the hull of a starship? The only reason grevious was still breathing was because jedi's don't go immediately for the kill. And space marines most definitely cannot survive severe damage to the neck. There have been instances where barbarians with spears slipped under a marines helmet and got him on the neck.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Now Ill defend 40k and say Magnus would be the best possible canadate here. He could efectivly take out a Titan, or even the entire SW fleet. Even on a small scale he could enter via warp and pull the soul out of their body to battle him in the warp, like Ahriman did. I can see Magnus and other Alpha Psykers (Soul Drinkers second book comes to mind) being even footed.


He might stand a chance, but powers like they might depend on the will power of the opponent, SW omnibus. A Jedi like Luke has iron will, he migh not be able to pull it off. Also, we don't know that. Magnus was an arrogant shit, he could have been talking out his ass. Also it was in the warp, this is real space. Smash a Titan? Who gives a shit; Skywalker PULLED two planets out of their orbits and smashed them together. Breaking a Titan in two doesn't even begin to compare to that kind of raw power. Hell, if he could do that it wouldn't be hard to completely disassemble an imperial battleship.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I confess I never read the SW Omnibus. Had no idea about the will factoring.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah, in one of them rangar is paralyzed, or held immobile in any case, and he breaks free out of shear will power.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Even if we included the primarchs, they wouldn't even stand a chance against a being that could pull planets out of their orbits. Power on that scale is beyond almost anything in 40k.


Yeah, good point. Though if it were a fair fight between the two as in NO pulling planets or star destroyers on top of their heads? That would probably be a different story.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Alpha level psykers.

Nuff said.
Not much canon on them, but they operate like that.

Burning princess is an alpha level in dark heresy that IIRC pull down 2 imperial cruisers (yes, the ones that are 5-6 times longer than the star destroyers) and killed a planet, for she felt like it. There was a powerful inquisitor there too just to mention.

And since jedi don't go for the kill every livng thing in 40k (ie, those that war, for there is only war) will go for the kill directly.

And cyborg ninja looks like an 40k assassin, very cool. Almost eversor like but much slower.

So 40k pulls alpha level psykers that are equal to jedi more or less.

What obscene other argument will they bring next?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LOL first off Crusiers are not 3 times larger, check the facts. As for obscene comment, well it sounds like you have a personal vendetta to defend the 40k universe honor of who has the bigger dick :laugh:. 
Relax, Nerd Rage cant be taken seriously. Still Starkiller and Luke are (IMOO) equal to Magnus, Emperor, and certain Alpha lvl Psykers like in SD Omnibus.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Of course i defend 40k, i'm bored 

And i'm comparing star destroyers to imperial cruisers, and lo, they are much bigger.

The 40k cruisers that is.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Its all good.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, I think jedi would have a harder time dodging bolters than they would blasters...

bolters are capable of fully automatic rapid-fire
bolt rounds travel much faster than the "lasers" (which move fu cking slow) in star wars 

"lasers" (whatever comes out of blasters) in Star Wars do not move at light speed, in the movies they look like they travel more slowly than 21st century bullets 

IMO

famous high-level jedi = famous chief librarian (Tigurius, Mephiston, Ezekiel, etc.) 
* I think chief librarians might have a slight advantage because they have more offensive "spells", but there are probably many more famous high-level jedi than there are chief librarians of this calibre 

average SM > average jedi



Warlock in Training said:


> Still Starkiller and Luke are (IMOO) equal to Magnus, Emperor, and certain Alpha lvl Psykers like in SD Omnibus.


I honestly don't think there is anyone in SW comparable to the 40k Emperor, but then I'm not an SW expert

*oh yes I would just like to point out that in Episode II, "average joe" jedi were killed by droids with lame little blasters because the jedi could not block fast enough...if jedi were truly so godlike, the order for the clone troops to exterminate those jedi accompanying them would have failed miserably

general grievous has killed jedi
jango fett and boba fett (and I'm pretty sure other skilled bounty hunters) have killed jedi 
boba fett stalemated darth vader
aura sing [spelling?] has killed jedi*


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

It really depends. 1v1 I would give it to the Jedi.

Fleet battles are up in the air on weather or not you want the one of a kind SW ships in them. There have actually been 4 death star beams. 2 from the two death stars, 1 that was created by the huts that was just the beam and one that was built into a SSD. Also there is the Sun Crusher. A normal fleet vs a normal fleet though I would most likely give it to the SMs though I wouldnt plan on them actually boarding a ship, the amount of anti-fighter weaponry on a SD or frigate is insane in the SW universe.

For chapter master vs lord...I give this to the Jedi also. We have accounts of Jedi pulling ships from orbit, absorbing all the heat from their surroundings(corran horn) including laser fire, pulling two planets tougether, pushing an entire fleet(17 star destroyers) out of a solar system and i'm sure we can find more references.

Had to respond to the above, lasers in movies are effect..read the books. They are actually lasers. Also there are references to Jedi using a lightsaber to parry a slug thrower(projectile weapon, gun). There slowness of a laser in the movie is dramatic effect...and getting actors to more quickly enough would be difficult dont you think?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

BrainFreeze said:


> It really depends. 1v1 I would give it to the Jedi.
> 
> Fleet battles are up in the air on weather or not you want the one of a kind SW ships in them. There have actually been 4 death star beams. 2 from the two death stars, 1 that was created by the huts that was just the beam and one that was built into a SSD. Also there is the Sun Crusher. A normal fleet vs a normal fleet though I would most likely give it to the SMs though I wouldnt plan on them actually boarding a ship, the amount of anti-fighter weaponry on a SD or frigate is insane in the SW universe.
> 
> ...


Why does everyone use the powers like pulling two planets together as an excuse to give the win to the jedi? Way too fucking OP IMO. As mentioned in an above post, why not label them as a god and be done with it? 

Back to canon, were those insanely OP powers mentioned in any SW books, because I have no idea. Haven't read enough SW books to know.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> Why does everyone use the powers like pulling two planets together as an excuse to give the win to the jedi? Way too fucking OP IMO. As mentioned in an above post, why not label them as a god and be done with it?
> 
> Back to canon, were those insanely OP powers mentioned in any SW books, because I have no idea. Haven't read enough SW books to know.


Yes they were in books. The last specifically(throwing a fleet out of a solar system) and the one about absorbing energy sources blasters/explosions etc.

I mean if we want to just go ahead and throw canon out the window we can just say SMs win and be done with it but then what was the point?


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

The problem with OP is that no one likes them (well, a few i guess) and it's not cool anymore.

And i am fairly sure that the throwing planets around isn't really a generic jedi skill?
Setting them in the number of Alpha level psykers in 40k.

Ie, NOT MANY.

So yeah, luke can throw planets around, but he can still only defend one place.
Unless he can teleport between systems now without a ship, and that would just be epicly stupid.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

EU Star Wars canon shows jango fett defeating 4 jedi in close combat (see above for pics)...

that is canon at least in the EU where jedi are supposed to be even better than they are in the movies

all the instances in the prequel movies of jedi being killed by droids and/or clone troops is canon

Luke Skywalker might be the fu cking bomb, but the average jedi ain't all that...it's like claiming the average SM is like Marneus "I beat Avatars" Calgar


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> EU Star Wars canon would be jango fett defeating 4 jedi in close combat (see above for pics)...
> 
> that is canon at least in the EU where jedi are supposed to be even better than they are in the movies
> 
> ...


Look how easy they get gunned down by clones in revenge of the sith.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I also don't get where all this "a jedi will just use the force to crush a SM's brain inside his skull" nonsense comes from 
why did obi wan not do this against general grievous? if the average jedi could just "crush organs inside your body", how did general grievous ever defeat any jedi at all? all a jedi would have to do is crush grievous's heart... 
when has a jedi or even a sith crushed internal organs directly? 
I've only seen them crush targets from the outside, not directly from the inside...
in the scans I posted earlier, why didn't the jedi crush jango fett's organs, are you guys telling me he chose to be garroted instead? 

in attack of the clones, anakin and obi wan couldn't even use the force to break their chains in the arena, neither did they "crush the brains" of the beasts trying to kill them...if they were so awesome, why didn't they just incapacitate the arena beasts with the force, heck, if they were that good they could have done this while still chained to their posts 
obviously there's a limit to what a jedi can do, unless his name is Yoda or Luke Skywalker etc. 

the arena skirmish on Geonosis clearly shows that jedi are not that hard to kill


> Amidst the heated skirmish, Jedi Master Coleman Trebor attempted to engage Dooku in lightsaber combat. This act was cut short by expertly placed shots from bounty hunter Jango Fett and Trebor fell to his death from Archduke Poggle the Lesser's viewing box.
> The Jedi fought valiantly during the skirmish, though many were not able to survive the onslaught and perished at the hands of Count Dooku's droid army.
> Of the 200 Jedi who were part of the strike team, an unknown number fought in the arena. Only an estimated thirty of those survived the initial battle, of which at least one more died during the battle that followed, making the losses suffered by the team grave. Only the timely arrival of Jedi Master Yoda and the newly-created Grand Army of the Republic saved the strike team from impending destruction. Despite the high casualties suffered by the Jedi, their mission was successful


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Geonosis_strike_team


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I also don't get where all this "a jedi will just use the force to crush a SM's brain inside his skull" nonsense comes from


The thing is, if you only watch the films, you wont know about it.

And, even in the films, Vader did it ALL the time - his force choke - thats him constricting the windpipe of the person he is killing - from the INSIDE.




> why did obi wan not do this against general grievous? if the average jedi could just "crush organs inside your body", how did general grievous ever defeat any jedi at all? all a jedi would have to do is crush grievous's heart...


Because most jedi WONT do it because the consider it an immoral act - and thus think they are falling to the darkside if they do so, and thus consider it an act worse than dying themselves.




> in attack of the clones, anakin and obi wan couldn't even use the force to break their chains in the arena, neither did they "crush the brains" of the beasts trying to kill them...if they were so awesome, why didn't they just incapacitate the arena beasts with the force, heck, if they were that good they could have done this while still chained to their posts
> obviously there's a limit to what a jedi can do, unless his name is Yoda or Luke Skywalker etc.


Hmm - let me see - arena surrounded by MILLIONS of enemy genosians - kill beasts, and hmm - shot to death in milliseconds. So they were clearly playing for time/waiting for something to come up.



> the arena skirmish on Geonosis clearly shows that jedi are not that hard to kill
> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Geonosis_strike_team


Jango fett killed the jedi because his full attention was on dooku. Fett often killed jedi - but almost never in a 'straight' fight, because he knows in a 'straight' fight hes dead - just as mace proved, without barely straining a muscle.

And, Jedi may well be all but 'unkillable' but when you are surrounded by hundreds of guns, no matter how fast you are, it makes no difference because for every bolt you defect there are 10 more - thats why they died so easily there.

Look at every other event where jedi are being shot at - they always have a wall at their back and can control the fight - in the area there was no chance of that.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Lets sum up this thread in a typical zen method. "Everything that doesn't exist is better then everything else that doesn't exist"


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Jedi could evade blast shoot, but could they evade BOLTERS SHELLS???? 

they explode killing in the act

obviously JEDI had hand up against a single space marine, if he had the correct powers, but space marines are killing machines worse than the mandalorian, and each space marine is not a simple stormtroper or clonetrooper but a heroic super human. 

Not talking of librarian that have plenty uses of psychic powers that could match the jedi use of the FORCE. 

A power weapon could stand a lightsaber because similar powers.

a Jedi could be more acrobatic, but the space marine had many bio-enhancements that could make a single blow very deadly.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

How about a straight up fight between an epistolary librarian vs a jedi master?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Flash said:


> How about a straight up fight between an epistolary librarian vs a jedi master?


Jedi - no question.

The powers that librarians possess are nothing compared to most force powers that even average jedi have.

Not to mention the librarian can get 'eaten' by his own powers, whereas the jedi is in no such danger.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Have to jump in here.

Not all jedi can be all throw ships and planets around, and librarians in the codexes are very less powerful than they are supposed to be.

I mean, putting up psychic barries that soaks meltas, flick his hand and do stuff similar in power to any star wars force push, and generally, is not to be taken lightly.

I'd say it's a very close call, and would boil down to whom the individuals were.
The jedi's prime advantage is mobility, the librarian can soak most (most) of the stuff the jedi throw at him.
Sure if he gets a tank thrown at him he will not soak it, but marines are rather agile themselves so he could dodge some stuff.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Maidel said:


> The thing is, if you only watch the films, you wont know about it.
> 
> And, even in the films, Vader did it ALL the time - his force choke - thats him constricting the windpipe of the person he is killing - from the INSIDE.


Pretty sure that was choking from the outside.



> Because most jedi WONT do it because the consider it an immoral act - and thus think they are falling to the darkside if they do so, and thus consider it an act worse than dying themselves.


You mean like obi-wan who cut off another creatures arm in a bar instead of just pushing it away?



> Hmm - let me see - arena surrounded by MILLIONS of enemy genosians - kill beasts, and hmm - shot to death in milliseconds. So they were clearly playing for time/waiting for something to come up.


Millions is an exaggeration


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Maidel said:


> The thing is, if you only watch the films, you wont know about it.
> 
> And, even in the films, Vader did it ALL the time - his force choke - thats him constricting the windpipe of the person he is killing - from the INSIDE.


really? do you have proof or are you just making this up? where does it ever say or indicate that the force was applied directly to the wind-pipe and not just to the outside of the throat?



> Because most jedi WONT do it because the consider it an immoral act - and thus think they are falling to the darkside if they do so, and thus consider it an act worse than dying themselves.


if they refuse to use an ability even in the face of imminent death, that makes it a non-factor in a fight doesn't it?



> Hmm - let me see - arena surrounded by MILLIONS of enemy genosians - kill beasts, and hmm - shot to death in milliseconds. So they were clearly playing for time/waiting for something to come up.


right...they were scared of those "millions" (more like hundreds) of arena spectators whose organs they could instantly crush with the force
*may I ask you why didn't Obi Wan just crush Grievous's heart? why didn't all those jedi who were killed by Grievous just crush the general's fragile little heart?* 



> Jango fett killed the jedi because his full attention was on dooku. Fett often killed jedi - but almost never in a 'straight' fight, because he knows in a 'straight' fight hes dead - just as mace proved, without barely straining a muscle.


sorry but ahahahahaha, *go to the previous page and look at the pictures of jango fett dismantling 4 jedi using his bare hands and a rock!* go on, go ahead and look...not every jedi is mace windu
you know what, i'll do you a favour and post it again


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

BrainFreeze said:


> Yes they were in books. The last specifically(throwing a fleet out of a solar system) and the one about absorbing energy sources blasters/explosions etc.
> 
> I mean if we want to just go ahead and throw canon out the window we can just say SMs win and be done with it but then what was the point?


I'm not saying throw canon out of the window. I haven't read many SW books, as I've mentioned before, so I didn't know.
But then that's the problem with the SW books. Authors can take liberties with certain Jedi like giving them the power to throw planets around, and toss a fleet of SD's out of a system. As I said, we might as well call them gods and be done with it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wow, where did all this crap that has been setteled came back up? Its like a broken record in this thread.

In my Vids on the first post you have a Video of a Sith being shot at by a Gernede Launcher. He deflects 2 via Litghsaber and Force combo. The Third hit the Light Saber exploded and the Sith had a nasty burn. Thats a Gernade... and he was hit with another after that. Yet a tiny explosion of a Bolter will do him in? Im sorry but no.

Also Jango/Boba killing Jedi. Jedi like Padawans or those very Average Jedi are not invincble when being gunned down by Exceptional Non Force Users. Here we Have the GREATEST Bounty Hunter in the Galaxy vs Average Jedi... he wins. Now what happens when he fought a Master? He got PWN big time. So what we have here is "Well that HUMAN Catachan named Marbo killed many Lictors. Yet Lictors killed SMs... SMs must be pussies" argument. Doesnt stand up.Infact it looks silly.

These have been adressed before in like three seperate well explain post. The whole why Clones were able to kill the Jedi, Why the Lasers look slow but are moving at Speed of Light. Theres ton of Vids showing Jedis abilities. Yet it keeps coming back up like a broken record. Read the post and come up with new arguments with Source material or refrences to back it up.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gally912 said:


> Pretty sure that was choking from the outside.





MontytheMighty said:


> really? do you have proof or are you just making this up? where does it ever say or indicate that the force was applied directly to the wind-pipe and not just to the outside of the throat?


Either or - For example in the book 'jedi quest' Granta Omega (series sith bad guy) grabs a womans heart from the inside and crushes it (using the force obviously)! And Darth Bane gave his father a heart attack in his sleep in a similar manner. 
It wasnt restricted to sith however as mace did the same thing to general greviouses lungs.



> You mean like obi-wan who cut off another creatures arm in a bar instead of just pushing it away?


He had decided that it wouldnt be enough, and that wasnt a mortal wound, thus, not the same as crushing a mans windpipe.



> Millions is an exaggeration


I cant find the reference now, But I am pretty certain its listed as being a million geonosians in the arena.




> if they refuse to use an ability even in the face of imminent death, that makes it a non-factor in a fight doesn't it?


It depends. Some will use it, some wont - and the origninal question also included sith who wont hesitate to use it.



> right...they were scared of those "millions" (more like hundreds) of arena spectators whose organs they could instantly crush with the force
> *may I ask you why didn't Obi Wan just crush Grievous's heart? why didn't all those jedi who were killed by Grievous just crush the general's fragile little heart?*


Main answer to this is that is simply not good for dramatic tension. Call that a cop out, but, frankly GW does this all the time with their fluff. One minute a marine is a one man army who can take on 100s of adversaries, and the next minute a single ork Nob can carve through half a company of marines.

There is inconsistancy equally in both universes. Hell, you can go to LoTRs for the biggest 'why didnt he do that' and ask why the hell gandulf didnt simply fly a whole bunch of eagles over the volcano and drop the ring in... 'because' is the only answer.



> sorry but ahahahahaha, *go to the previous page and look at the pictures of jango fett dismantling 4 jedi using his bare hands and a rock!* go on, go ahead and look...not every jedi is mace windu
> you know what, i'll do you a favour and post it again


No - you are quite right - and this comes back to the idea of 'hero' characters. Hero characters in both GWs works and star wars (And hell, every other universe) are able to do things that others cant. Jango/bobba Fett is a massive 'hero' character - think of him as Jon Mclane from die hard, or arnie in Commando - lets be frank, all of them would die a 1000 times in reality, but because they are a (anti)hero they survive.

So - when Bobba Fett is the 'Hero' then jedi fall at his feet. When Marnius calgar is the hero Avatars are smote across his knee. Reverse that, when Jedi are the heros bobba fett is plant food and marines are carved in bloody swathes by aspect warriors.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I think i remember why the blasters were so slow.

They were in fact some kind of laser plasma mix, which is the reason they are called blasters and not lasers.
The thing goes slower but hits harder (or something)

Plus it's from old movies, the new blasters (newer movies) move faster.

On another note.
I think a jedi would actually have to be hit by a bolt to be instagibbed.
Yeah your skin has high resilience, to bad you are blown from the inside.
I think marines have this problem too. Although they wear heay armour.

And totally agree with the hero character thing.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

If a SM is hit by a Bolt that Explodes inside him hes dead. The sad argument here is he deflects the Bolt via LS and it explodes. It does no damge to him.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Is this thread still going?

This was settled long ago.


The Space Marine wins by a mile. All this crap about destroying planets, force choking people and turning their brains to mush is over the top nonsense. 

We are talking about average Space Marines, so why were characters like Starkiller and Luke 'I'm God' Skywalker brought up.

Average Jedi can be killed by Bounty Hunters, Robots and Clone Troopers, therefore a Space Marine can easily win. 

Case closed.

It sickens me that people are still in love with Jedi ... for goodness sake people follow it as an actual religion. 

What a bunch of ...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Is this thread still going?
> 
> This was settled long ago.
> 
> ...


Sorry - are these the marines that get mown down by aspect warriors or chopped to bits by orks, or carved up by chaos marines or eaten by daemons.

You cant take away 'over the top' fluff - its there, whether you like it or not (and I dont like it personally...)


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Is this thread still going?
> 
> This was settled long ago.
> 
> ...


HAHAHA:laugh: The same Marines that get stabbed in the neck by wooden spears and Die??? Same SMs that get brought down by tratorius IG Lasguns??? The Same Marines that are killed by Force Lightning (DoW... Duh)???  Sorry your argument is moot.:victory:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> HAHAHA:laugh: The same Marines that get stabbed in the neck by wooden spears and Die??? Same SMs that get brought down by tratorius IG Lasguns??? The Same Marines that are killed by Force Lightning (DoW... Duh)???  Sorry your argument is moot.:victory:


I'm sorry but nothing is as embarassing as *4 average jedi being dominated by Jango Fett using only his bare hands and a rock, 2 jedi even tried to attack Jango from behind*...you're telling me that a space marine in power armour with a bolt pistol and a chainsword couldn't defeat one of those lame-ass average jedi?

*What Jango did is like one unarmed Kasrkin stormtrooper mopping the floor with 4 space marines armed with chainswords*...good luck trying to find something comparable to that in 40k.
Even if you want to compare average SM and average jedi at their worst, you lose miserably.


furthermore, it doesn't matter if Jango Fett is the greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy, he's physically way below the level of a space marine
Jango almost got killed by an ex-Mandalorian rival in close combat 

average space marines stomp average jedi...get over it

Boba Fett "bettered" Darth Vader, with the aid of guile, but still, he bettered a Sith Lord...


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm sorry but nothing is as embarassing as *4 average jedi being dominated by Jango Fett using only his bare hands and a rock, 2 jedi even tried to attack Jango from behind*...you're telling me that a space marine in power armour with a bolt pistol and a chainsword couldn't defeat one of those lame-ass average jedi?
> 
> *What Jango did is like one unarmed Kasrkin stormtrooper mopping the floor with 4 space marines armed with chainswords*...good luck trying to find something comparable to that in 40k.
> Even if you want to compare average SM and average jedi at their worst, you lose miserably.
> ...


I think you mean BOBA fett. Jango was killed by Mace Windu way before Anakin became Darth Vader. It doesn't change your point though. Just a correction


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

I like the boba fett and jango fett characters.

They are just cool bounty hunters.

And we can all agree that in almost all cases of lame ass death's it's mostly because they are the victims of hero characters. (Mostly) On both sides.

And i would also agree that average marine stomps average jedi.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Ahh but does the average marine stomp the average sith...That is a better question. He is kinda like the average Jedi but without all the problems of trying to talk to the guy in power armour before throwing a 2 ton generator at him. If we go with god mode the Jedi win. Hell the same goes with starship battles..if we include all the 1 of ships(sun crusher) Star Wars wins.

So yes Jango Fett managed to kill 4 "average" jedi apprentices...and?


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

.... I guess an average sith would do better, but still get beaten.

They have less qualms, and are better fighters than normal jedi (normally IIRC)

So yeah, much tougher opponet, but i'd still give it to the sm.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Average Jedi can be killed by Bounty Hunters, Robots and Clone Troopers, therefore a Space Marine can easily win.


SM get killed by guardsman, grots, and rippers. Therefore Jedi, and Sith, can easily win.




D-A-C said:


> The Space Marine wins by a mile. All this crap about destroying planets, force choking people and turning their brains to mush is over the top nonsense.


Ok, so making 8 foot tall super soldiers with 2 hearts, 3 longs who can spit acid isn't OTT, but a dude choking someone with the force is? That is like a dude driving a Hummer H1 calling the dude with the preis, ostentatious. I'm sorry, but if you love 40k then OTT plot shouldn't be an issue.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> SM get killed by guardsman, grots, and rippers. Therefore Jedi, and Sith, can easily win.


if you want to compare SM and Jedi at their worst, the Jedi still lose 

You guys keep glossing over this, but an unarmed Jango wiped the floor with 4 Jedi 
Nothing comparable to this has ever happened to SM, I've never seen an unarmed stormtrooper beat 4 armed SM

SM have been killed by guardsmen, maybe even grots, etc. in battle, but SM have never been _bested_ by them...that's a big difference



DeathJester921 said:


> I think you mean BOBA fett. Jango was killed by Mace Windu way before Anakin became Darth Vader. It doesn't change your point though. Just a correction


I did say Boba Fett didn't I?
anyway, Jango defeated 4 Jedi wielding lightsabres 
Boba got the upper hand against Vader


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Im sorry - you are comparing THE 'hero' bounty hunter and saying that makes all jedi poor?

Seriously?

Its a ridiculous comparason - its like saying 'all ork nobz suck' because a single imperial guardsman killed them - Then you find out that it was yarrik and it doesnt sound so ridiculous.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Why is everyone using the same argument against space marines. Getting killed by grots and IG. Are you talking fluff terms or tabletop? Tabletop is luck of the dice roll. Fluff, the SM were most likely greatly outnumbered or quite possibly ambushed. Even the best of the best can be beaten when greatly outnumbered and ambushed. Just look at the Spartans. 300 vs. many thousands of Persians. They lost, but they made the Persians pay for the win in blood. The Jedi, who were basically the best in the universe, were beaten by the clones because they were ambushed and greatly outnumbered. 

So seriously, quit using that argument.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> Why is everyone using the same argument against space marines. Getting killed by grots and IG. Are you talking fluff terms or tabletop? Tabletop is luck of the dice roll. Fluff, the SM were most likely greatly outnumbered or quite possibly ambushed. Even the best of the best can be beaten when greatly outnumbered and ambushed. Just look at the Spartans. 300 vs. many thousands of Persians. They lost, but they made the Persians pay for the win in blood. The Jedi, who were basically the best in the universe, were beaten by the clones because they were ambushed and greatly outnumbered.
> 
> So seriously, quit using that argument.


And as I already stated...



Warlock in Training said:


> HAHAHA:laugh: The same Marines that get stabbed in the neck by wooden spears and Die??? Same SMs that get brought down by tratorius IG Lasguns??? The Same Marines that are killed by Force Lightning (DoW... Duh)???  Sorry your argument is moot.:victory:


This is in all BL novels. So your points are null and void.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> This is in all BL novels. So your points are null and void.


Actually, the reason why I didnt respond was that every time I read his post I couldnt work out if he was supporting the jedi, or the marines, or whether he was supporting both of them.

:biggrin:


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> This is in all BL novels. So your points are null and void.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it's in the books, then it means that THEY can't control what happens. The WRITERS are in control. Just because the WRITERS write it that way doesn't mean the SM actually suck or die easily. Its written that way to give the SM human qualities. To show that they aren't invincible or flawless. They can die just like the rest of us. Wooden spears to the neck? They will die depending on the penetration. If it barely penetrates they could live. If the spear went all the way through the neck, then they will most likely die.

Lightning from an eldar farseer? Come on dude. Seriously? Its practically a given that they will die. After all, their armor is metal, so it conducts heat and electricity. The "hero" characters may not die. The sgt. obviously didn't because he was the "hero" character of the group.

And your Lasguns argument? If enough Lasguns are brought to bear on a SM, they will be brought down. Their armor isn't impenetrable. 

Your points are easily explainable.



Maidel said:


> Actually, the reason why I didnt respond was that every time I read his post I couldnt work out if he was supporting the jedi, or the marines, or whether he was supporting both of them.
> 
> :biggrin:


It may seem to you guys like i'm supporting the SM. I'm more neutral on the matter.

Given the right circumstances, the SM could win, the Jedi could win, or neither. It all depends on the factors present during battle.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If it's in the books, then it means that THEY can't control what happens. The WRITERS are in control. Just because the WRITERS write it that way doesn't mean the SM actually suck or die easily. Its written that way to give the SM human qualities. To show that they aren't invincible or flawless. They can die just like the rest of us. Wooden spears to the neck? They will die depending on the penetration. If it barely penetrates they could live. If the spear went all the way through the neck, then they will most likely die.
> 
> Lightning from an eldar farseer? Come on dude. Seriously? Its practically a given that they will die. After all, their armor is metal, so it conducts heat and electricity. The "hero" characters may not die. The sgt. obviously didn't because he was the "hero" character of the group.
> 
> ...


But, when it happens in a star wars comic or book, its not explainable...


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Maidel said:


> But, when it happens in a star wars comic or book, its not explainable...


I guess I don't know completely what you mean by that. If they die like what Warlock said? Jedi aren't flawless either. Just look at SW III. If they were perfect, they most likely would have seen Order 66 coming. They may have heightened reflexes and such, but that doesn't make them invincible. They, just like the SM's, can die just like the rest of us. 

Is that what you mean?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I guess I don't know completely what you mean by that. If they die like what Warlock said? Jedi aren't flawless either. Just look at SW III. If they were perfect, they most likely would have seen Order 66 coming. They may have heightened reflexes and such, but that doesn't make them invincible. They, just like the SM's, can die just like the rest of us.
> 
> Is that what you mean?


Well sort of. No one said they were invincible, but order 66 was no different to the drop site massacre. Hell, the emperor tooled up those legions, sent them off and then they stabbed them in the back.

That wasn't even a 'normal' marine being betrayed, that was the emperor himself. At least yoda saw it coming and survived.

Jedi are not invincible, but they have a hell of a lot of powers that marines can't even dream of.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

True enough, I'll give you that. Anyway, I don't think even the great Yoda EXACTLY saw it coming. He was just good enough to live because he was badass and he had the power of the force to help him sense the change in demeanor of the clones that were with him. Thats how developed his powers were, which was at an understandable level given his age and mastery. Before Luke and Starkiller came around, he was the best IMO.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I support that both sides arnt flawless. I stand by Average Sith/Jedi>Average SM. Its when GKs or other Psyker/Warp powered Marines entered the fray that Average Force Weilder might get own. Then the Master/Lords vs these more powerful Librariuns/Sorcerors come into play.


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## Abruzi (Jun 19, 2010)

I think a (Chaos or Loyalist) Marine would for sure beat a Jedi in one on one combat. Yeah, the Jedi just stabbed the Marine in the chest with his light saber...then the Marine tore off the Jedi's head because he has more than one heart you need to cook. 

Yeah, the Jedi just cut him in half...then the Marine tore off his leg as the Jedi stood there dramatically.

Yeah the Jedi just severed the arm with the big power weapon of doom...then the Marine beat him to death with either his other weapon/hand or took hold of his severed limb and beat him to death with it.

At range the Jedi could deflect the bolter rounds for sure, but unlike blaster rounds where you can take a glancing hit and be ok, a bolter round will shred the Jedi's arm or side or w/e. Massed fire would for sure kill them as well.

Army of Marines versus Army of Clone, Clones loose hands down. Fleet to fleet the Star Wars types loose as well. Worse comes to worse the Marines would just ram the Star-Destroyers (that all seem to have nice wide hallways and hangers), then it returns to Marine versus Clone.

It basically comes down to Warhammer 40k being ultra grim-dark and violent while Star Wars is notably less so. I mean when your universe glorified the sacrifice of millions of billions of trillions of men in a never ending war, I'm thinking you can smash the hell outta a universe where their one institution of government was pacifist for a while (the Republic not having a Military until the Clones).


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

wow this just reminds me of those old Star Wars vs. Star Trek arguments ive seen nerds rage over and even have fist fights about.

IMO lets just put these puny lil jedi/sith guys up against a real opponent. Make them face off the other races in 40K.

Like Orks... Now wer are talkin about a race that is effectively no match on a technological scale but they are so stupid that well they win out pure retard luck in many cases. 
Nids - Luke its nice that you just owned that tyrant but what are you gonna do about the emense horde of hormagaunts coming your oh crap behind you look theres a lictor.

so lets think of the races


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I belive the ONLY Races that stand a chance are SM/CSM with Warp base Powers, Daemons, and Eldar. In 1on1 fights of course.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

in order to repsond to the comment about space marines dying against heroic odds and whatnot. i direct you to Death World. its a book in the guard omnibus andbout the catachan junglefighters, and in the course of the book you here stories about how the squad members get their "names". one of them, got his name from killing a stranded chaos marine by outsmarting him (who would have CENTURIES more experience than the average space marine most likely) if a guardsman who sure as hell may have been one smart son of a bitch could do that, then im inclined to believe any jedi or sith could easily do the same thing. another member of the squad got his name by destroying a chaos dreadnought *by himself!*


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> in order to repsond to the comment about space marines dying against heroic odds and whatnot. i direct you to Death World. its a book in the guard omnibus andbout the catachan junglefighters, and in the course of the book you here stories about how the squad members get their "names". one of them, got his name from killing a stranded chaos marine by outsmarting him (who would have CENTURIES more experience than the average space marine most likely) if a guardsman who sure as hell may have been one smart son of a bitch could do that, then im inclined to believe any jedi or sith could easily do the same thing. another member of the squad got his name by destroying a chaos dreadnought *by himself!*


and then there was that one member named spanky guess how he got his name


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## Erik_Morkai (May 2, 2011)

This thread is one of the funniest I read in a while. People are going from one extreme to the other for comparisons. I love both universe, I own a substantial collection of books from both universe. There is some bad writing and bad showing on BOTH sides.

On an average, not counting weird one-shot stunts or events. Jedi wins. I love 40k, I love my badass SW but. That whole "They get shot up by clone troopers and die like punks" Everyone forgets that in the same movie, a young padawan trying to escape the temple got killed but brought along roughyl what 6-7 clone troopers? Jango Fett clones. A kid, 14 yo. Big difference when you know what you are getting into versus not knowing.

A Jedi like Luminara (no need to get Starkiller involved or stuff like that) has INCREDIBLE telekinetic potential and nearly unrivaled control on the scale of it.

Some Jedi like Mace, have strong TK, they can move ships, huge boulders large easy items. Some like Luminara can manipulate on a grain of sand scale. My point? Luminara would simply open her hand and watch the Space Marine armor/bolter/chainsword fall to the ground in individual pieces. Then she is facing a naked Space Marine...and she still has a lightsaber.

Force powers vary greatly from one individual to another depending on what they specialize or what their talent resides in, what form of lightsaber combat they use.

But overall, on average, a Jedi will cut down a SM. Simplest way? Force pull the weapons from their hands, gently lift the marine off the ground. You can't run or gain momentum without traction. Just slash the floating SM like a pinata. The end.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

This thread was interesting. 

However there's a few points forgotten,

First off while a group of jedi were able to push star destroyers out of the system. They had to channel the force to one jedi in order to do so. He had so much energy going through him that he died from burns. 

Also it repeatedly stated that slug throwers can overwhelm a jedi and kill them. Bolters more so. Finally how exactly could a jedi deflect a melta beam? which is a heat ray plain and simple.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Everyone is apparently forgetting the one thing that will guarantee victory for the 40k universe. The secret weapon that not even the Chaos Gods can defeat. 




















CCCCCCCRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Erik_Morkai said:


> This thread is one of the funniest I read in a while. People are going from one extreme to the other for comparisons


you would've loved my space marine vs. predator thread

but in all honesty, there are good arguments either way
both SM and Jedi have low showings, i.e. Jango besting 4 Jedi, SM falling to guardsmen, etc.


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## yoyoyo12365 (Dec 6, 2010)

Honestly, this thread has no solid base. The skills and strengths of any character from either universe are different. You would need two very specific characters (one from each SW and SM) to get a fair ruling on anything. Personal experience, past injuries, mindset, and a million other factors go into who would win in a fight.


And, on another note, Star Wars and 40k are obviously set in the same universe. 40k is in the Milky Way galaxy, and Star Wars is in another of the endless trillions of other galaxies that exist out there.


And, once again on another note, has anybody else ever noticed just how much of a beating the damned Jedi Temple takes, and yet it is always brought back, no matter what?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

yoyoyo12365 said:


> Honestly, this thread has no solid base. The skills and strengths of any character from either universe are different. You would need two very specific characters (one from each SW and SM) to get a fair ruling on anything. Personal experience, past injuries, mindset, and a million other factors go into who would win in a fight.
> 
> 
> And, on another note, Star Wars and 40k are obviously set in the same universe. 40k is in the Milky Way galaxy, and Star Wars is in another of the endless trillions of other galaxies that exist out there.
> ...


I'll set the standard then. Mace windu the second most baddest person in the galaxy Has a purple light sabre and the only person able to surpass him is anakin skywalker. Vs garviel loken captain of the Luna wolves 10th company is on the mornival appreciates free speech and watched horus kill the emperor also survived a orbital attack. His equipment is bolter sword. (don't remember what he used to kill that corrupted SM) combat knife melta gun and grenades. Jedi has the force cable launcher and lightsabre.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Space Marines take the cake... Except they all fail against Qui Gon Jinn. Because you just can't beat up Liam Neeson, the God of the Jedi.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I'll set the standard then. Mace windu the second most baddest person in the galaxy Has a purple light sabre and the only person able to surpass him is anakin skywalker. Vs garviel loken captain of the Luna wolves 10th company is on the mornival appreciates free speech and watched horus kill the emperor also survived a orbital attack. His equipment is bolter sword. (don't remember what he used to kill that corrupted SM) combat knife melta gun and grenades. Jedi has the force cable launcher and lightsabre.


an unarmed Jango Fett bested 4 Jedi who were trying to kill him

it would be safe to say that Mace Windu, a legendary Jedi master, was way above the level of those 4 average Jedi knights. 
In his encounter with Jango, Mace defeated Jango handily (although Fett's jetpack was damaged by an arena beast) 

I honestly am not that impressed by Loken...he and Torgaddon both lost quite miserably to their traitor counterparts. 

I'm leaning heavily toward Mace, who was one of the greatest Jedi in combat ever. I think a better match up would be between Mace and either 1) a legendary marine famed for his combat prowess or 2) a famous librarian.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This thread still going?! Wow.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Jumping in a little late to the conversation, I know...

I think that on a one-on-one basis, your average light-saber armed Jedi will have an advantage over your average bolter-armed Space Marine. That Jedi basically has a 3+ invulnerable save against the bolter; once he closes, he's armed with a power weapon and is hitting at least I5. Even with his enhanced genetics, that Space Marine is going to be hard pressed; he'd have to be quick enough to get his hands on the Jedi, hands that very well might get lopped off rather quickly.

Things would change on an actual battlefield, however. For one, the Jedi would have to deal with the far-superior military training that the Space Marines have recieved in terms of on-the-fly battlefield decision making. Plus, I'm fairly confident that your average Jedi would be unable to deflect, say, a plasma rifle blast, or be able to completely neutralize a Whirlwind missile barrage. Even with laser-based and projectile-based weaponry, a Jedi can still be overwhelmed eventually; it isn't like every Jedi is necesarilly capable of "auto-blocking" everything thrown their way. Don't even get me started on how awfully effective flamers would be. I'm thinking, in this case, blast-template weapons would be able to mess Jedi up royally. Then, of course, you have dedicated CC assault units (like the Grey Knights, someone already mentioned) armed with weapons that can easily stand up to a lightsaber. When that happens, your Jedi is still hitting faster, but without the armor and enhanced genetics available to your Space Marine, he simply won't be as durable. The Jedi might have to hit multiple times to end the Knight; that Knight only has to hit once to fuck that Jedi up. 

So, on a one on one basis, I'd say your average Jedi has it over your average Marine. In terms of a battlefield, however, where the fate of galaxies would be decided...I don't think there's any question. And at the end of the day, it's the unrelenting brutal willingness to do whatever it takes that will carry the day for the Imperium. Even with their civilization on the edge of extincition due to the Yuzhaan Vong, the Jedi were still divided and plagued with doubt over how far they were willing to go to win, and remorseful when they finally _did_ cross that line. 

Doubt and remorse; two things that Space Marines rarely come equipped with.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> an unarmed Jango Fett bested 4 Jedi who were trying to kill him
> 
> it would be safe to say that Mace Windu, a legendary Jedi master, was way above the level of those 4 average Jedi knights.
> In his encounter with Jango, Mace defeated Jango handily (although Fett's jetpack was damaged by an arena beast)
> ...


He did kill a warp tainted marine before anyone of them knew what a warp creature was. Also I can't see how a jedi would deflect a melta gun. It's fires heat. Finally it says multipul times that jedi can't deal with full auto slug throwers. To make the match up more interesting let's make the marine. Captain Cato Sicarius fought the necrons. Almost bested a necron lord is an ultramarine. Equiped with a powersword and a plasma pistol.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Finally it says multipul times that jedi can't deal with full auto slug throwers. To make the match up more interesting let's make the marine.


I think a Jedi would have no chance of blocking/dodging a bolter on full auto
but I was assuming a more melee-based duel 



> Captain Cato Sicarius fought the necrons. Almost bested a necron lord is an ultramarine. Equiped with a powersword and a plasma pistol.


I think Sicarius would probably win

the force powers are tricky though because while I firmly believe average Jedi are garbage (Jango beat 4 of them at once...), the really powerful Jedi masters have very strong force abilities


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> He did kill a warp tainted marine before anyone of them knew what a warp creature was. Also I can't see how a jedi would deflect a melta gun. It's fires heat. Finally it says multipul times that jedi can't deal with full auto slug throwers. To make the match up more interesting let's make the marine. Captain Cato Sicarius fought the necrons. Almost bested a necron lord is an ultramarine. Equiped with a powersword and a plasma pistol.


Metal Slugs can be and have been Force Deflected. MG is something a Jedi would have to dodge. 

As for your awsome Captain Loser read Chapters Due. He gets his ASS Kicked by a armourless female half Eldar Pirate Leader with a Power Weapon. He sucks. He would get eaten by a Jedi with Force Powers and Light Saber. Sicarius is too slow and Jedi can see 1-2 secs into the futur most times. Nope, Sorry.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Mace Windu was defeated by a emo bitch, he didn't see that coming


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I will chip in on this thread and state Mediclorians (the best thing from the first Trilogy) are far superior to the gene-enhancements of a space-marine. 

If you need me i'll be building a bunker to protect myself from the incoming fallout....


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

scscofield said:


> Mace Windu was defeated by a emo bitch, he didn't see that coming


So your argument is a Jedi was Killed by another Jedi? Good Argument :victory: 

He said it here first, Jedi can ONLY be killed by Jedi.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I just found the way he died sad, after that I figured the rest of them deserved the emorage bot slaughter. 

In terms of this, one on one, I think a Jedi would win against most of them. The big deal breaker either way would be how the lightsaber interacted with WH40k stuff. If it just cut thru everything then the contest would be much more one sided in favor of the Jedi.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

It wasnt sad. It was BS! He crushes Grievous Chest in 2 secs of their standoff. He beat the Emperor by himself where Yoda failed. Killed Jango Fett. Yet all it took was a twist of the wrist and his were gone. Fuck that.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I see your George Lucas and raise you a Matt Ward.

I believe that is what we call trumps gentlemen.

:biggrin:


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

As a tie breaker they need to square off against Michael Bay


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> I see your George Lucas and raise you a Matt Ward.
> 
> I believe that is what we call trumps gentlemen.


I believe we have a winner



scscofield said:


> The big deal breaker either way would be how the lightsaber interacted with WH40k stuff. If it just cut thru everything then the contest would be much more one sided in favor of the Jedi.


the matter-disrupting fields of power swords and the chainsaw teeth of chain swords have no problem slicing/chewing through SM armour 

but lightsabres are heat-based I think (they melt/burn through armour) 
ceramite is _supposed_ to be highly heat-resistant, yet ceramite is vulnerable to plasma (also heat-based) 

a lightsabre might cut through a chain sword, but how would a lightsabre interact with the matter-disrupting field of a power sword?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> Metal Slugs can be and have been Force Deflected. MG is something a Jedi would have to dodge.
> 
> As for your awsome Captain Loser read Chapters Due. He gets his ASS Kicked by a armourless female half Eldar Pirate Leader with a Power Weapon. He sucks. He would get eaten by a Jedi with Force Powers and Light Saber. Sicarius is too slow and Jedi can see 1-2 secs into the futur most times. Nope, Sorry.


Space marines fight psykers all the time. Besides jedi fear destoryer droids and we all know that cron guass weapons take a few shots to pierce marine armour so a light sabre probably would not work.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

This is still happening?! :shok:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The entire jedi would be slaughtered as the came across Hive fleet kraken. The Empire would be ransaked by the Ork Waaagh!!!. In truth Star Wars is a great universe.Bobba Fett is my favorite character.I think he'd do well in 40k. The rest of Star Wars however wouldn't. The Jedi would see the Imperium and every other faction as evil and tyranical.Then get wiped out.Where would the Sith go?The eye of terror?So they can get a train ran on them by the daemon primarchs and their legions and renegades?Star Wars is space fantasy.They have hope and ideals they fight for towards a brighter future. Warhammer is a nightmare come true where only the ruthless and cunning prosper.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> This is still happening?! :shok:


Yes, yes it is.(FACEPALM)


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

> warlock in training


_+ALERT. THIS IS I, CATO SICARIUS SPEAKING. THIS THREAD HAS BEEN OVERRUN BY STAR WARS FANBOYS. I, CATO SICARIUS, SHALL BEGIN EXTERMINATUS EXTREMIS IMMEDIATELY, FOR I, CATO SICARIUS, AM THE GREATEST SPACE MARINE!+_


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

> gen ahab


_takes deep breath_
_+ATTENTION. IT IS I, CATO SICARIUS. (AGAIN) THE CRUSADE FLEET HAS ARRIVED. THE EMPEROR PROTECTS.+_


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

Warlock in Training said:


> This thread still going?! Wow.


In spite of you. Go back to Stardestroyer.net.


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

gen.ahab said:


> SSD are beyond anything 40k has as far as battle ships go.


HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Gloriana-Class laughs at you. Literally anything with a Nova cannon laughs at you. Just stop wanking.


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