# What I don't like about chaos



## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

The forces of chaos in the 40k world make no sense to me. The warp is supposed to be a reflection of the thoughts of sentient beings yet there is not one example of a being from the warp acting in any way that would bring positive change. You can argue all day about the relativeness of good and evil but there is still positive intentions and negative intentions and no being of chaos has ever made in attempt to affect their world in a positive fashion. I know that 40k is supposed to be a grim bleak future with no good guys but we know through the books that there are some characters, like Garviel Loken, who are nothing but good and honest. The thought patterns of such people are not reflected at any point in the warp. There should be gods of the warp who represent positive aspect such as honor or justice or, at the very least, deamons who perform some other function than trying to make the lives of everything around them worse.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

put it this, the good deamons don't want to take over the world becuse there good, there fore only the bad ones enter are world as the good are, good. its likely has less to do there being no good deamon and more a matter of there being no good deamon who wish to enter the metrial world. save two examples
1 the avtars often called a deamon
2 the liveing saint and for that matter all the sisters of battle acts of faith.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Most of the Evil Daemons have come to be thanks to The eldar i thought. So it could just be that they outnumber the good Daemons (Angels?).


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## Arkeoptrix (Oct 8, 2010)

Yeah I always thought that was odd too. Theoretically speaking, there should be a Warp entity of pure hope seeing as how you'd need tons of that to even line in the 41st millennium.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The Chaos Gods don't just represent our feelings and emotions, they represent these things pushed to their furthest illogical extreme. Tzeench, for example, represents hope. Nurgle represents tradition, Slaanesh represents passion and Khorne represents honour. All of things things are admirable qualities until they are pushed to the extremes that the Gods of Chaos strive for.
So, all the good things about humanity are represented, just not in a good way. 

And Loken was not a good guy, he had some good qualities but he was still an Astartes, a brutal killing machine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

xNoPityx said:


> but there is still positive intentions and negative intentions


Even such things are relative. 



xNoPityx said:


> There should be gods of the warp who represent positive aspect such as honor or justice or, at the very least, deamons who perform some other function than trying to make the lives of everything around them worse.


There are. Khorne represents honour and justice, although because of his nature such things are twisted and supressed to the point where all he desires is the flow of blood.

The same can be said of the other gods. Slaanesh represents love and joy, but these aspects are twisted, warped and supressed until it is clear she only desires deviant excess.

The selfish, corrupt and bloodthirsty nature of mortals is made manifest in the warp. Such things are inherent and universal, other concepts such as love can be explained as merely lust anyway. But regardless, our emotional aspects are stripped to their basics and pushed to their extremes within the warp, which is represented by the chaos gods. They are merely the reflections of our psyche, we make them as they are.

As for Daemons, well the reason they lust after realspace so much is because it is a realm of constants (unlike the warp). Things can be changed permanently, this is a place where they can increase their own power and that of their masters. Where they can reap the rewards of the influence of their respective aspects and emotions.



Arkeoptrix said:


> Yeah I always thought that was odd too. Theoretically speaking, there should be a Warp entity of pure hope seeing as how you'd need tons of that to even line in the 41st millennium.


Tzeentch is the god of hope. Represented by wild, flippant and constant change.



dragonkingofthestars said:


> 1 the avtars often called a deamon
> 2 the liveing saint and for that matter all the sisters of battle acts of faith.


Both are not daemons in the conventional sense at all. The Avatars of Khaine merely the shattered remnants of a god, and Imperial saints (apparently) the manifestation of the Emperor's power.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

It is the fact that the gods represent only the most extreme interpretations of emotions that I have a problem with. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it wasn't for the literature. What you are saying is that, at their core, every sentient being is selfish and corrupt and the warp is a reflection of that, but you have literature of such people as Garviel Loken and Nathaniel Garro who, when given not only the opportunity but very strong incentive to act selfishly, decline to fight selflessly against their brothers and fathers when defeat is almost certain. And not just them, all the loyalist at istvaan only had to give in to their baser desires and they would have lived, but they didn't. If such people exist in 40k then it stands to reason that they should be represented, no matter how small, in the warp.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

xNoPityx said:


> but you have literature of such people as Garviel Loken and Nathaniel Garro who, when given not only the opportunity but very strong incentive to act selfishly, decline to fight selflessly against their brothers and fathers when defeat is almost certain.


Even so, both Loken and Garro are still bloodthirsty murderers. They have still slaughtered countless innocents, burned entire worlds and toppled whole civilisations. They rejected Horus' rebellion because they felt utter loyalty and duty to the Emperor's Imperium, over and above their loyalty and duty to their own Primarchs. Just because they opposed the ideological shift in their Legions doesn't automatically make them _'good'_. 



xNoPityx said:


> And not just them, all the loyalist at istvaan only had to give in to their baser desires and they would have lived, but they didn't. If such people exist in 40k then it stands to reason that they should be represented, no matter how small, in the warp.


The nature of chaos devotion was not apparent by the time of Isstvan III, at least not to anyone but minimal Primarchs/Astartes commanders. For the vast majority it wasn't a matter of 'giving in to their baser desires', it was a matter of an ideological/philosophical clash with the Emperor's regime and putting loyalty to one's Legion above one's Imperium.

As for being represented in the warp? Perhaps such things you would label as _'positive'_ aspects are, they are just so minimal and indistinct that they are basically pointless. But it's safe to assume that for the most part they are encompassed within the incomprehensibly vast consciousness of the Four, just warped and launced to their extreme aspects.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

This is exactly why I prefer the Ork gods. So much simpler.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

xNoPityx said:


> It is the fact that the gods represent only the most extreme interpretations of emotions that I have a problem with. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it wasn't for the literature. What you are saying is that, at their core, every sentient being is selfish and corrupt and the warp is a reflection of that, but you have literature of such people as Garviel Loken and Nathaniel Garro who, when given not only the opportunity but very strong incentive to act selfishly, decline to fight selflessly against their brothers and fathers when defeat is almost certain. And not just them, all the loyalist at istvaan only had to give in to their baser desires and they would have lived, but they didn't. If such people exist in 40k then it stands to reason that they should be represented, no matter how small, in the warp.


But they don't only represent the most extreme, they represent all levels of a given feeling or emotion.
Look at it this way, Tzeench represents hope, change and rebirth. Do you really think that Tzeench attracts followers by saying "join me! I'm the craziest thing since mad bastard went to lunyville! If you're really lucky I might turn you into a pool of pink snot!"
No, Tzeench attracts followers through their normal human wishes of greater power, understanding and a will for change for the better. 
Chaos worship is like drug addiction, by the time you realise that it's all going wrong it's too late!


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> But they don't only represent the most extreme, they represent all levels of a given feeling or emotion.
> Look at it this way, Tzeench represents hope, change and rebirth. Do you really think that Tzeench attracts followers by saying "join me! I'm the craziest thing since mad bastard went to lunyville! If you're really lucky I might turn you into a pool of pink snot!"
> No, Tzeench attracts followers through their normal human wishes of greater power, understanding and a will for change for the better.
> Chaos worship is like drug addiction, by the time you realise that it's all going wrong it's too late!


Exactly, just look at Magnus and the Thousand Sons. They started off simply trying to expand their knowledge and understanding of the warp and ended up having daemon 'pets' and sacrificing thralls to fuel their spells without batting an eyelash. Now most of them (well, those who aren't all dusty) are a bunch of arrogant madmen who are only obsessed with gathering power.


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## Inquisitor_Win (Jun 9, 2010)

Hypothetically speaking, if all the members of all the worlds of the Imperium; all the Eldars in their Craftworlds and all the Tau decided to:

a) Lay down their arms and resolve their differences diplomatically.

b) Hug an Ork.

c) Adopt a Tyranid.

d) Sing 'If you're happy and you know it clap your hands' in a giant coordinated galactic sing-along.

Then, I'm pretty sure the Chaos Gods' appearances and goals would radically change; changing both the Daemon ans Chaos Space Marines along the line.

That or the universe would implode magnanimously.

Seriously though, that seems to be the nature of the Warp; it's a mirror of the dominant setting in the material plane. The unhappy, wartorn, depressed worlds seem to outweight the happy, peaceful, content ones. Therefore Chaos rules the Warp. The 'good' people of the Imperium are still warriors; and despite their good intentions [the road to Hell is paved with them, or so I hear] they need bolters, lascannons or orbital strikes to make their voices heard and their opinions taken seriously.

In an ideal universe [think Star Trek or a similar utopian future] I'm sure the Gods of the Warp would still be Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh; but they would represent Honor, Happiness, Hope and Love.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Action is not emotion. I can sing (ish) "Merry Christmas Everyone" all the time, and have a grin on my face, yet all I want to scream is "Bah Humbug".


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> This is exactly why I prefer the Ork gods. So much simpler.


:laugh: Well said!


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

...the Warp is a bad place...where great deamons swim in a sea of chaos...isnt it?..."Hope and Change" are merely tools to control the weak...emotion, is weakness...Deamons are ~very~ good at exploiting this...since when did the Warp become a hippy vigil?...:shok:


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> This is exactly why I prefer the Ork gods. So much simpler.


:laugh:

They dont even know they are gods.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even such things are relative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even so, both Loken and Garro are still bloodthirsty murderers. They have still slaughtered countless innocents, burned entire worlds and toppled whole civilisations. They rejected Horus' rebellion because they felt utter loyalty and duty to the Emperor's Imperium, over and above their loyalty and duty to their own Primarchs. Just because they opposed the ideological shift in their Legions doesn't automatically make them _'good'_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think bloodthirsty murderers is a bit strong, I saw no point in the novels where they particularly enjoyed bringing a human world to compliance, excepting the one where a mournival member was killed. When faced with war against the interex you could see his hesitation at killing an interex warrior, and his lamenting the fact that the imperium must now war with a human civilization they might have made peace with. 

Anyways back to the main point, the positive aspects aren't just overshadowed, THEY AREN'T THERE. There is no point in any scene involving chaos where they showed the slightest inclination to better the lives of another being besides themselves. It doesn't make sense that there aren't any positive reflections in the war, why? Because of the imperium and the eldar. These two groups of people have seen what chaos has to offer in full view. They have seen chaos gods and they looked at them with hatred and contempt. If humanity's moral compass contains only that which has been shown so far in the warp, then why do so many despise chaos and its servants? There has to be beings of the warp that mirror the attitudes of such people. If you don't like honor and justice, then what about abstinence and self control? These two things are what allow psykers to use their powers without corruption, what allow inquisitors to look at chaos rituals with contempt. Both of these are not shown at all in beings of chaos.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

xNoPityx said:


> If humanity's moral compass contains only that which has been shown so far in the warp, then why do so many despise chaos and its servants? There has to be beings of the warp that mirror the attitudes of such people. If you don't like honor and justice, then what about abstinence and self control? These two things are what allow psykers to use their powers without corruption, what allow inquisitors to look at chaos rituals with contempt. Both of these are not shown at all in beings of chaos.


You've pretty much answered your own question there. Through self control and abstinence the psyker avoids leaving a shadow in the warp. The warp/Chaos can't feed on nothing, it needs emotion. Abstinence and self control keep emotions under control meaning they have less of an imprint on the warp, with no imprint they can't form into anything because there is nothing there to form.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Controlling you emotions is not the same as suppressing them. You feel the same emotions everyone feels just as strongly but you don't let those emotions twist you into something you aren't.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I think to answer this you need to know where the gods come from.

1) Slaanesh came from the Eldar. He was born as the Eldar became pious and arrogant and began beleiving that the universe and all it's secrets were theirs to find. This led them to indulge in pleasure and self-fulfillment. Eventually their feelings manifested themselves into Slaanesh. Slaanesh therefore symbolises pleasure, indulgence, and pain.

2) Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch all came from Humans. They were around before man became aware of their presence in the warp but were small factors because man had no real connection with the warp until the Emporer came around. Khorne most likely symbolizes the warrior gods of different cultures and therefore, as said earlier, bravery, honor, courage, and pride. Nurgle symbolizes death in all his forms, therefore, he represents pestilence, death, and curruption. Tzeentch, and this is going to sound extreme, but in my opinion symbolizes a sort of Catholicism. He represents change, hope, power, and chance, which was what Christianity was all about when it first came around in B.C.

Now the reason that their isn't any "good" daemons in the warp could be one of three:
1) They were devoured by the chaos gods.
2) They fled the warp (i.e. the laughing god) and hid somewhere.
3) They battled the chaos gods for power and lost. (i.e. Khaine v Slaanesh)
Same as stated, the Eldar and Man, which are the main presence in the warp, have seen the horrors and most refrain from the Warp.



As for the theory regarding why beings representing abstinence hope etc arent there, it could be that there simply arent enough psykers feeding their emotions to them for them to manifest themselves.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

xNoPityx said:


> Controlling you emotions is not the same as suppressing them. You feel the same emotions everyone feels just as strongly but you don't let those emotions twist you into something you aren't.


Exactly, by controlling them and not letting them twist or become perverted you avoid the attentions of the Chaos Gods. There's nothing there for the Chaos Gods (good or otherwise) to latch onto. If there is nothing to hold onto then there is nothing to form in the Warp, meaning no Chaos God of X Y or Z.
The Chaos Gods and the Warp itself are excess incarnate, by controlling your emotions you basically flick the light switch and turn off the power. 

It's like saying why can't solar panels run on darkness? They run on light, if you turn the light off they have no power. If you manage to control your emotions you are pulling down the blackout blind on your soul and denying Chaos entry. If you have managed to hide yourself from the big bad guys you are hiding yourself from any good guys out there as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> 2) Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch all came from Humans.


No they didn't. They were coalescing in the warp long before humanity had even evolved.



Cyleune said:


> because man had no real connection with the warp until the Emporer came around.


Yes they did. Humanity is a psychic race (like all races fostered by the Old Ones), thus even prior to the emergence of the Emperor psykers were still present in varying numbers.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Exactly, by controlling them and not letting them twist or become perverted you avoid the attentions of the Chaos Gods. There's nothing there for the Chaos Gods (good or otherwise) to latch onto. If there is nothing to hold onto then there is nothing to form in the Warp, meaning no Chaos God of X Y or Z.
> The Chaos Gods and the Warp itself are excess incarnate, by controlling your emotions you basically flick the light switch and turn off the power.
> 
> It's like saying why can't solar panels run on darkness? They run on light, if you turn the light off they have no power. If you manage to control your emotions you are pulling down the blackout blind on your soul and denying Chaos entry. If you have managed to hide yourself from the big bad guys you are hiding yourself from any good guys out there as well.


Again, you are confusing suppression with control. The emotions are still there, they are still being broadcast into warp, they just aren't becoming corrupted. When you control yourself you aren't hiding from the gods, you are protecting yourself from them. The gods are aware powerful psykers such as the Emperor or Tigurius are active in the warp. Both of them shine as brightly as suns in the warp, but chaos cannot corrupt them. Why, because they do not let them.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> Again, you are confusing suppression with control. The emotions are still there, they are still being broadcast into warp, they just aren't becoming corrupted. When you control yourself you aren't hiding from the gods, you are protecting yourself from them. The gods are aware powerful psykers such as the Emperor or Tigurius are active in the warp. Both of them shine as brightly as suns in the warp, but chaos cannot corrupt them. Why, because they do not let them.


Emotions are there, whether you act on them or not. Not serving Chaos directly does not by any means stop them from being empowered. 

You feel anger? You are feeding Khorne regardless of whether you lop off a few heads or simply take a deep breath and count to ten. The emotion is there, it has been felt, it has leaked into the warp. 

As CotE has said many times, the gods of the warp do not necessarily care about destroying anything, all that matters to them is the flow of emotion.

Do not confuse the gods and daemons. Daemons are fickle selfish creatures that exist for no purpose other than to fuel their own desires. In serving their parent god, they perpetuate emotions in mortals and ensure that their god remains powerful, thus ensuring their own survival in the process.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm not confusing anything with anything else. 

Hiding, protecting, suppressing or controlling, they all amount to the same thing in the end. There is no Chaos God of self control because self control is the polar opposite of what the Chaos Gods and the warp are. 
There is no chaos God of Abstinence because abstinence is the denial of extremes, the oppostie of what Chaos represents. 
There is no Chaos God of pink fluffy bunny wabbits because in the grim darkness of the far future the Care Bears got arse raped by Necrons. 

Gods of hope, honour, tradition and love exist, they are the Chaos Gods and they are worshipped in all of their aspects in one way or another. Like I said before, no one in their right mind would worship Tzeench if the only lure was being turned into pink snot. 
Self control could, I suppose, be another aspect of any of the big four (maybe with the exception of Slaanesh) a warrior needs some level of self control to excell, a sorceror must have self control to master the powers of the warp and so on. Whatever emotion you can think of it can and has been twisted by the Chaos Gods, it's what they do.

Abstinence is the only way to remove yourself from the equation, the Warp and Chaos cannot feed on the denial of emotion that abstinence represents. Abstinence is not a human emotion it is the denial of human emotions, lusts and cravings.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

When has a berserker marine ever shown the slightest amount of control in battle? They are berserkers, the reason they are good at what they do is because the lose all self control and go crazy. And Tzeench is the exact opposite of control, he is wild and uncontrollable change. But you don't agree with my point and I don't agree with yours so we're going to have to agree to disagree with this. 

Anyways, the warp is a reflection of the emotion of sentient beings. When someone feels an emotion, it is reflected directly into the warp. What im saying is that the chaos gods should show that. Slaneesh is the god of lustful love but my point is not all love is lustful. Their is platonic love, such as a brother loving a brother, or a mother loving her child her child and vice versa. And there arent even a small amount of these types of relationships.Given the size of the imperium there are Trillions of these types of relationships. Yet that aspect of love is completely absent in the warp. That doesn't make sense. I am simply saying that so far, the attitude of chaos is only portrayed in the narrowest of extremes.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

So despite every example given, you`re clinging to your own views. 

Fair enough, have a nice day. :bye:



EDIT: In answer to your question, there`s a short story in the CSM codex where a group of berzerkers hold back to wait for a better oppurtunity.

In DoW Tempest, Ahriman of the Thousand Sons is calm and collected, and in perfect control of the overall scheme he`s working on.

Brotherhood? The martial honour between astartes? The pride of a parent in their child? The grief when a loved one dies? 

Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle. It`s all there, you simply refuse to see it! :fool:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

xNoPityx said:


> When has a berserker marine ever shown the slightest amount of control in battle? They are berserkers, the reason they are good at what they do is because the lose all self control and go crazy. And Tzeench is the exact opposite of control, he is wild and uncontrollable change.
> 
> Anyways, the warp is a reflection of the emotion of sentient beings. When someone feels an emotion, it is reflected directly into the warp. What im saying is that the chaos gods should reflect that. Slaneesh is the god of lustful love but my point is not all love is lustful. Their is platonic love, such as a brother loving a brother, or a mother loving her child her child and vice versa. And there arent even a small amount of these types of relationships.Given the size of the imperium there are Trillions of these types of relationships. Yet that aspect of love is completely absent in the warp. That doesn't make sense. I am simply saying that so far, the attitude of chaos is only portrayed in the narrowest of extremes.


Nope, wrong again. 
ALL love is represented by one Chaos God or another. The love a mother feels for a child is still a form of pleasure therefore it feeds Slaanesh, only Slaanesh will take that love and twist it, pervert and corrupt it until the mother is doing all sorts of unspeakable things with a childs entrails. Slaanesh is seen as representing lust and perversion because that it is the illogical extreme of all forms of pleasure. 
The love felt by brothers could be twisted by Khorne, they start out as brotherly comrades, looking out for each other until one gets hurt, the other will feel righteous anger at the wrong done against his brother. This anger is taken and twisted by Khorne to represent blind uncontrolled rage and blood letting. 
The mother's child dies, the mother feels grief, this is natural as she feels the loss of her child, Nurgle can turn that temporary grief into the lowest depths of despair.
The mother wants her child to do well in school, to join the Imperial Navy at some point, she hopes and that hope feeds Tzeench. The mothers hope for a better future for her child is twisted and warped into Tzeench's plots and schemes and his lust for change for changes sake.

So, as I have said all along, Chaos represents both the good and the bad of humanity (among other races) but in a dystopian place like the 41st millenium the negatives are always going to outweigh the positives.

The Chaos Gods are shown in a narrow way because that is what they represent, emotion (good and bad) pushed to inhuman extremes, not bound by any form of moral code or even inteligence. They are what they are, no more no less.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Suppression and embodiment at the same time of the thing that you represent? Is that surely not what chaos is? As anathema to itself as much as it is self perpetuating?

"Love" is a survivalist notion - "lust" is the animalistic notion to procreate - same as love - it's just that humans put stock in a new meaning. Dolphins and Chimpanzee's, both intelligent creatures brains have shown that the "flight or fight" mechanism triggers at both feelings of arousal and protection, and also in times of danger. Adrenaline and the like, equivalent of sweaty palms, etc, feelings of anger, etc.

Berserkers show control - they seek two things, blood and skulls. Notions of Fear aren't needed in one whose soul purpose is to harvest these. Martial prowess is available on offer, victory in battle for a commander, conquering armies etc - all of these are present.

As to God of "unhealthy" love - well, it wouldn't be good to hear that Chaos is all wholesome motherly/brotherly love - after all, it's grimdark and all that shit.

I remember the saying "Hate and Love are two sides of the same coin" or words to that effect. I know that personally.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Nope, wrong again.
> ALL love is represented by one Chaos God or another. The love a mother feels for a child is still a form of pleasure therefore it feeds Slaanesh, only Slaanesh will take that love and twist it, pervert and corrupt it until the mother is doing all sorts of unspeakable things with a childs entrails. Slaanesh is seen as representing lust and perversion because that it is the illogical extreme of all forms of pleasure.
> The love felt by brothers could be twisted by Khorne, they start out as brotherly comrades, looking out for each other until one gets hurt, the other will feel righteous anger at the wrong done against his brother. This anger is taken and twisted by Khorne to represent blind uncontrolled rage and blood letting.
> The mother's child dies, the mother feels grief, this is natural as she feels the loss of her child, Nurgle can turn that temporary grief into the lowest depths of despair.
> ...


See and what you said there is my problem. Slaneesh took the love and twisted it and perverted it himself. He took something that was inherently innocent and corrupted it. That means the warp isn't a reflection as the lore states. It means that the gods aren't just representation of humanity's psyche, they are a corrupting influence. Now I wouldn't have a problem with that if that's what they said from the start but it isn't.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> So despite every example given, you`re clinging to your own views.
> 
> Fair enough, have a nice day. :bye:
> 
> ...


Lol you are completely missing the point. You are saying khorne embodies brotherhood. Who is his chosen follower? Kharn the BETRAYER, the marine who burnt down his brothers camp to force them to kill each other. The world eaters are the most disorganized chaos legion because of what khorne's chosen did. I doubt the embodiment of brotherhood would be to pleased with that.

And with slaneesh, you are saying he represents the love of a parent? Maybe in name but certainly not in action. Look at lucius the eternal. How did he get his first soul? By fighting in and losing a deathmatch ordered by his primarch. I doubt a loving father would order his sons to kill each other to get rid of bordem.

You can sit there and say that chaos embodies the good and the bad but everything in the lore says otherwise.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> And with slaneesh, you are saying he represents the love of a parent. Maybe in name but certainly not in action. Look at lucius the eternal. How did he get his first soul? By fighting in and losing a deathmatch ordered by his primarch. Fulgrim sounds very fatherly. You are saying that the Gods represent the good and the bad while every single story in the lore says otherwise.


I take it that you are aware of the fact that it isn't actually Fulgrim but merely a daemon possessing his body, right? Fulgrim hasn't had a say since he lopped Ferrus's head off.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

True that. But a deathmatch still seems kind of an odd thing for a demon of slaneesh to order anyways. Khorne hates slaneesh because he is so lax about combat. Seems unlikely a minion of his would enjoy it so much. A rape and torture session seems more appropriate. 

But does no one see my point? The attitude of the denizens of the warp are supposed to be a reflection of the psyche of sentient beings, nothing more, nothing less, and yet the gods are shown to twist innocent action into more violent ones. This implies that the gods prefer the darkest examples of emotion. If chaos feeds on any emotion whether negative or positive, why start the horus hersey at all? The great crusade seems an ideal situation for the gods if they don't care how dark those emotions that feed them are.

A galaxy wide war for khorne, Legions of artist and poets for slaneesh, 
An abrupt change of the status quo from thousands upon thousand of separate alien planets and empires to one unified empire for tzeench, and nurgle can feed off the despair of the humans and aliens who were purged from the galaxy. They should have tried to keep it up as long as they could.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

At what point does Khorne despise Slaanesh due to being squeamish?

You're the only one pigeon holing the gods here.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I didn't say squeamish I said lax on combat. Rape and torture aren't really for the squeamish, but the two are represented as opposite. The way I understood it khorne and slaneesh were supposed to be enemies and nurgle and tzeench were supposed to be enemies but maybe my information is faulty.

EDIT: I did some reading around and khorne definitely hates slaanesh. He was the first god to go to war with slaanesh after his/her birth. And the world eaters and the emperor children often war with one another. Khorne values combat and death while slaanesh likes a life of unlimited comfort and pleasure.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm going to add significant weight to this discourse with my two cents of:

I think norm's right.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

gally912 said:


> I'm going to add significant weight to this discourse with my two cents of:
> 
> I think norm's right.


Can't really argue with that so I'm going to respond with a frowny face


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

Ok, before we go off-topic and start talking about "No he hates him!" "No she hates it!", I'll sum that up to the best I can.
The Chaos Gods are all at war with each other. Sometimes one is dominant, but it's very rare that one of the Chaos Gods gets squashed totally and in their entirety. And three Gods being destroyed would be bad for business, as just one god would mean no conflicts, therefore no war. Some gods also hate each other more than they hate the other two.
Slaanesh and Khorne hate each other more than they hate the others because Khorne wants wanton slaughter and death and total bloodymindedness to the exclusion of all else. This effectively means he wants life to be short and for experiences and senses to be pointless. On top of this, he also has a thing about hate. Meanwhile, Slaanesh wants sensual extremes and the opportunity to experience everything. This means a long life. He also likes lust and pain. These are polar opposites with violence, killing and hate. So that's why they hate each other.
Nurgle and Tzeentch are also arch enemies. Nurgle is god of decay, rot and despair. Tzeentch is god of hope, change and creation. Nurgle destroys Tzeentch's creations and the despair he causes brings down the hope.

So, with that done, I think most that's been said is about right. Chaos twists any positive emotions that come their way, and as John Blanche said in the August White Dwarf, it makes sense that the Chaos Gods are more aspects of the negative than the positive in a universe like 40k. They all have things that would be positive, except those aspects don't come out.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

xNoPityx said:


> See and what you said there is my problem. Slaneesh took the love and twisted it and perverted it himself. He took something that was inherently innocent and corrupted it. That means the warp isn't a reflection as the lore states. It means that the gods aren't just representation of humanity's psyche, they are a corrupting influence. Now I wouldn't have a problem with that if that's what they said from the start but it isn't.


I've tried explaining it more times than i care to think about, you seem determined to believe what you already think so I'm wasting my time. 
I'm right, I know I'm right and most others know it too. You can carry on thinking that the Chaos Gods represent whatever you think they do, that's up to you, just don't expect others to think the same way.
For further reading on the subject so you can either enlighten yourself or continue reading what you want to see into everything I would suggest finding the old Realms Of Chaos books. 
They are OOP but I'm sure you'll think of something, give them a read and then come back and see if any of your opinions have changed.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I've read slaves to darkness, not the lost and the damned. If I had read that and only that I might be inclined to believe you but after reading the Horus Heresy books I've changed to my current way of thinking. But your right, more people here believe you than believe me and there is no point arguing when I'm outnumbered.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, I've read Slaves to Darkness, The Lost And The Damned and all of the Heresy books except Collected Visions, which I've got my fingers crossed for soon after Christmas. None of them have led me to the conclussions you have reached.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I haven't read collected visions or a thousand sons, but I just got the latter yesterday. But to each his own. I guess we just think differently.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> Lol you are completely missing the point. You are saying khorne embodies brotherhood. Who is his chosen follower? Kharn the BETRAYER, the marine who burnt down his brothers camp to force them to kill each other. The world eaters are the most disorganized chaos legion because of what khorne's chosen did. I doubt the embodiment of brotherhood would be to pleased with that.
> 
> And with slaneesh, you are saying he represents the love of a parent? Maybe in name but certainly not in action. Look at lucius the eternal. How did he get his first soul? By fighting in and losing a deathmatch ordered by his primarch. I doubt a loving father would order his sons to kill each other to get rid of bordem.
> 
> You can sit there and say that chaos embodies the good and the bad but everything in the lore says otherwise.


Because Humanity _believes_ Chaos to be evil, so those who serve it are naturally inclined towards the darker side of their worship. For example, Kharn embodies the unquenchable bloodlust and wanton slaughter, not the martial honour and fair fight mentality of a duellist. 

The Chaos gods are emotional _extremes_, even the most noble warrior will eventually devolve into a ruthless murderer given enough time. But that is not necessarily how they started out.



xNoPityx said:


> But does no one see my point? The attitude of the denizens of the warp are supposed to be a reflection of the psyche of sentient beings, nothing more, nothing less, and yet the gods are shown to twist innocent action into more violent ones. This implies that the gods prefer the darkest examples of emotion. If chaos feeds on any emotion whether negative or positive, why start the horus hersey at all? The great crusade seems an ideal situation for the gods if they don't care how dark those emotions that feed them are.


I see your point. You`re convinced that Chaos is evil when their should be representation of good in the warp as well. Bear in mind that humans (the main influence at the moment) largely put their faith in the Emperor as the only being of good. So long as they view Chaos as pure evil, that`s all they`re likely to see. 



xNoPityx said:


> I've read slaves to darkness, not the lost and the damned. If I had read that and only that I might be inclined to believe you but after reading the Horus Heresy books I've changed to my current way of thinking. But your right, more people here believe you than believe me and there is no point arguing when I'm outnumbered.


Arguing outnumbered is fine. You just need more to support what you`re trying to say. Information which I dare to say isn`t out there. 

The Liber Chaotica may also help. I belive it`s more inclined towards WHFB, but it`s still pretty good. I`ve only thumbed through it at the store but I`ll be buying it soon.

It`s been fun. :thank_you:


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I gotta agree, how is it that there are no other forces in the warp besides the bad ones. It almost sounds stupid to think only the 4 deviant powers in the warp perpetuate there. If you think about it, how often are you angry? sad? jealous? lust? Not anywhere close to as often as you are content and happy. A person is usually happy 70% of the time, 90% if your not counting the small bs flares everyone gets. So why is there no gods of happiness, or joy in the warp??

my edited portion here: If you think about it, all beings in the 40k universe are happy at some point and time. A Khorne berserker taking someones head, he is happy. An Eldar who sits and meditates with no problems, he is happy. An Ork who just got a new bit, he is happy! So how are you going to tell me there is no form of happiness being represented in the warp?

PS. Blood for the blood god does not = honor. and Decay and withering of all things does not = tradition. In fact, the tradition part symbolizing Nurgle is so dumb, I question the writer who thought of that. Seriously, tradition usually means, keeping the same, not changing. Yet somehow a diety who bases his entire existence on the break down of all substances is considered the symbol of tradition....


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Again someone is missing the point by a country mile!
No, blood for the blood God does not equate to honour but they are both aspects of the same deity. 
Tradition is the positive side of stagnation they are both essentially the same thing. Tradition leads to stagnation, stagnation leads to decay, decay leads to disease, disease leads to despair. 

Any clearer?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

CJay said:


> I gotta agree, how is it that there are no other forces in the warp besides the bad ones. It almost sounds stupid to think only the 4 deviant powers in the warp perpetuate there. If you think about it, how often are you angry? sad? jealous? lust? Not anywhere close to as often as you are content and happy. A person is usually happy 70% of the time, 90% if your not counting the small bs flares everyone gets. So why is there no gods of happiness, or joy in the warp??
> 
> my edited portion here: If you think about it, all beings in the 40k universe are happy at some point and time. A Khorne berserker taking someones head, he is happy. An Eldar who sits and meditates with no problems, he is happy. An Ork who just got a new bit, he is happy! So how are you going to tell me there is no form of happiness being represented in the warp?
> 
> PS. Blood for the blood god does not = honor. and Decay and withering of all things does not = tradition. In fact, the tradition part symbolizing Nurgle is so dumb, I question the writer who thought of that. Seriously, tradition usually means, keeping the same, not changing. Yet somehow a diety who bases his entire existence on the break down of all substances is considered the symbol of tradition....


Like people have said, Slaanesh governs happiness, but because humanity's conscience is so engorged within the Warp and because the vast majority of humanity perceives the denizens of the Warp as evil, that happiness fuels him/her, but it becomes twisted into lust and perversion by humanity's perception of him/her. Same with the other Gods; a Space Marine's concept of honor fuels Khorne, but because of humanity's perception of the Warp, it becomes twisted into bloodthristiness. Nurgle symbolizes tradition as a foil to Tzeentch, who stands for change, but humanity's perception of him twists him into a deity of decay and hopelessness.

The Dark Gods, the most powerful beings in the Warp, are so invested within humanity that the effect is reciprocal; the darker impulses of humanity and other lesser races serve to twist the Warp into the nightmarish realm it is today. The Eldar are too few in number to heavily influence the Warp with their collective conscience, and the Orks...well, from the looks of it, they seem to be contributing more to Gork & Mork than any Chaos power. The Warp is a reflection of humanity's collective conscience more than anything else, since again the Dark Gods are so heavily invested in humanity.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Honor is a different aspect really? Thats like saying Poseidon is the god of both water and fire. If he is the aspect of honor, then why are there so many mass killings of innocence by Khorne followers? Why is his most powerful champion a traitorous jerk? Those 2 key things aren't very honorable, once again very fail thinking.

Tradition and Stagnation are 2 different things. Tradition is the act of keeping something the same, a process of repeating something that has already been done. Stagnation is just leaving something sit without change. People uphold traditions, like Christmas which we are just doing, people let cars with bad paint jobs become stagnate and rust. 

Saying both of these words correlate in any logical way is as fail as it gets. Look at a dictionary and you realize this

As for the twisted part, that does make sense, that the warp is nothing more than an evil place where nothing but shit comes out of it, but then again where would all the psychic reflections of positive nature go? All the races talk of an afterlife, is there maybe such a place not invested in humanity that is a major collection of all the good? But here is another question, by your logic, what is stopping my perversion being twisted into something nice in the warp?? Answer that one.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Are you five?
Khorne is the God of warriors, he represents everything that warriors represent, honour dignity, martial prowess etc. As many of these things a warrior may represent at the end of the day fighting is about violence and being a warrior is about killing so at the extreme end of the spectrum you get Khorne.

Your car does not stagnate it rusts.
Mindless adherence to tradition leads to social stagnation, nothing moves therefore it stagnates, it decays because it cannot expand and evolve and change. 

Fail my arse!


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

This is kind of devolving into flame...


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Thats a weak spin on the 2 words to make them correlate. Technically too much change and a failure to upkeep tradition can also lead to a break down. So once again I find flaw in your thinking.

Once again being a warrior does not mean being honorable. A soldier who is paid to kill could butcher a kitten, is he honorable? No he is not, but is he a warrior? yes he is, he is paid to kill others. There is a serious flaw, an over exaggeration of honor is not wanton bloodletting.

As for calling me 5, I am clearly and expertly poking holes in your argument, Im sure a 5 year old could not do that, also I mentioned that the car rusts...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

TBH it was fine until someone with all the mental prowess of a slug decided to start accusing people of 'very fail thinking'.
The discussion with you, although a little frustrating at times, was well considered and stimulating. 
Now it's just pathetic.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

CJay said:


> Thats a weak spin on the 2 words to make them correlate. Technically too much change and a failure to upkeep tradition can also lead to a break down. So once again I find flaw in your thinking.
> 
> Once again being a warrior does not mean being honorable. A soldier who is paid to kill could butcher a kitten, is he honorable? No he is not, but is he a warrior? yes he is, he is paid to kill others. There is a serious flaw, an over exaggeration of honor is not wanton bloodletting.
> 
> As for calling me 5, I am clearly and expertly poking holes in your argument, Im sure a 5 year old could not do that, also I mentioned that the car rusts...


No, you have succeeded in showing what a complete and utter lack of understanding you have of the subject at hand, nothing more.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Say what you want, but all I see is no reply to my questions. Logical thinking has shown what a immature internet troll you are.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

CJay said:


> As for the twisted part, that does make sense, that the warp is nothing more than an evil place where nothing but shit comes out of it, but then again where would all the psychic reflections of positive nature go? All the races talk of an afterlife, is there maybe such a place not invested in humanity that is a major collection of all the good? But here is another question, by your logic, what is stopping my perversion being twisted into something nice in the warp?? Answer that one.


This is 40k we're talking about here. You would be one of untold trillions inhabiting the galaxy, and to say that not everyone would be thinking the same way as you would be an understatement.

Eldar souls are either devoured by Slaanesh or are sent into the Infinity Circuit. But mankind's afterlife is shrouded in superstition; the Imperial Cult holds that men and women stand before the Emperor after death and are judged before him, but I think they're just absorbed into the Warp after death.

Khorne feeds on martial honor and bloodthirstiness alike, but humanity's collective conscience is...well, put simply, humans are bastards in this setting. One good soul will not make a difference in this, nor will one thousand or even one million; nothing short of a massive change of heart by the majority of mankind will change the nature of the Warp or its denizens.

So say a particularly proud Astartes turns to Khorne out of desire for martial power. His sense of honor will feed Khorne just as much as his spilling of blood, but because humans are such bastards, the influence of their collective conscience means that Khorne will emphasize the negative aspect of bloodshed far more than the positive aspect of honor, and said Astartes will grow to reflect his patron.

The World Eaters aren't really the best example of this, but they once fostered a gladiatoral culture that rewarded personal martial prowess, even though their aggressiveness was heightened by the use of nerve implants. Fast-forward to M41, where they are now scattered and as bloodthirsty as their patron deity.

tl;dr it's all humanity's fault. The Chaos Gods, the Daemons, and maybe the CSMs are bastards because the vast majority of humans are bastards. Cue Grimdark.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> I gotta agree, how is it that there are no other forces in the warp besides the bad ones. It almost sounds stupid to think only the 4 deviant powers in the warp perpetuate there. If you think about it, how often are you angry? sad? jealous? lust? Not anywhere close to as often as you are content and happy. A person is usually happy 70% of the time, 90% if your not counting the small bs flares everyone gets. So why is there no gods of happiness, or joy in the warp??
> 
> my edited portion here: If you think about it, all beings in the 40k universe are happy at some point and time. A Khorne berserker taking someones head, he is happy. An Eldar who sits and meditates with no problems, he is happy. An Ork who just got a new bit, he is happy! So how are you going to tell me there is no form of happiness being represented in the warp?
> 
> PS. Blood for the blood god does not = honor. and Decay and withering of all things does not = tradition. In fact, the tradition part symbolizing Nurgle is so dumb, I question the writer who thought of that. Seriously, tradition usually means, keeping the same, not changing. Yet somehow a diety who bases his entire existence on the break down of all substances is considered the symbol of tradition....


Well the thing is this is IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE 41ST MILLENIUM AND THERE IS ONLY WAR bit, kind of tells you that happiness should not be prevalent in these times.

You're right, there maybe instances were love of a child or whatever occurs, but there would be x10 were the mother is feeling bitter because it's another mouth to feed in these desperate times. 

There maybe planets were it's alright to live in, not too depressing but there are probably x100 more hive worlds or mining worlds were living is already hard as it is and there fellow man are ruining their lives with selfishness.

Not forgetting to mention the fact the Imperium is in constant war, and yes, occasionally there is a glimmer of humanity in those terrible times, like hospitals for the wounded civillians or whatever shows the best in humanity; But like most of the time, the worst always pops out when we need to survive and everyone should know the nasty shit people do just to survive.

So to summarise what I just wrote: This is a pessimistic and cynical view of the future. Bad shit occurs more frequently than the good.

Oh and Christmas isn't a viable argument for the whole stagnation and tradition, just because it's all about commercialism these days so clearly it's been modified and different from the original meaning; with everyone going "It's about spending time with your family and fueling the economy." instead of the birth of Jesus and all that.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I want one of the guys who know the fluff down pact to verify that. The way I see it, the majority of the worlds are not in combat. If every world was a struggling warzone, then there would be no way the Empire could flourish. You need plenty of off site combat free zones that provide the materials for the planets that are, especially when you have such things as the Imperial Guard and the SMs to fund and supply. Plus you see places where Imperial Guard go on leave to rest up, and lets not forget those pleasure worlds or whatever that the high ups get to par take of. 

And as for the Khorne honor part, you ruined your argument when you said that as the World Eaters continued they became even more blood thirsty animals. The way I see it, away from Khorne you are honorable, the closer you are, the more of a blood thirsty lunatic. Honor doesn't seem to play a real factor in the Khorne way of life. 

Now can I put up a crazy hypothetical that says there is a collection of good deeds/dead souls somewhere? I know they talked about being judged by the emperor etc, but he is supposedly not dead, and correct me if Im wrong, when did it say he could see dead people? 

I like to think that whole final days thing where they fight a long side the emperor is some like Armageddon esq Biblical stuff where the Emperor will have a "Second Coming" if you will and all those that were good come and beat the snot out of everyone.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> I want one of the guys who know the fluff down pact to verify that. The way I see it, the majority of the worlds are not in combat. If every world was a struggling warzone, then there would be no way the Empire could flourish. You need plenty of off site combat free zones that provide the materials for the planets that are, especially when you have such things as the Imperial Guard and the SMs to fund and supply. Plus you see places where Imperial Guard go on leave to rest up, and lets not forget those pleasure worlds or whatever that the high ups get to par take of.


Can you quote me saying all the worlds are in combat? I said the Imperium is in constant war. There's a difference.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

CJay said:


> I want one of the guys who know the fluff down pact to verify that. The way I see it, the majority of the worlds are not in combat. If every world was a struggling warzone, then there would be no way the Empire could flourish. You need plenty of off site combat free zones that provide the materials for the planets that are, especially when you have such things as the Imperial Guard and the SMs to fund and supply. Plus you see places where Imperial Guard go on leave to rest up, and lets not forget those pleasure worlds or whatever that the high ups get to par take of.
> 
> And as for the Khorne honor part, you ruined your argument when you said that as the World Eaters continued they became even more blood thirsty animals. The way I see it, away from Khorne you are honorable, the closer you are, the more of a blood thirsty lunatic. Honor doesn't seem to play a real factor in the Khorne way of life.
> 
> ...


Hate to disagree with the one guy on my side, but a majority of the imperial populations live in hive cities or forge worlds. Hive cities are so overpopulated and gang infested that every day is a struggle to survive. And forge worlds are both over populated and horribly polluted, terrible places to live.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> I want one of the guys who know the fluff down pact to verify that. The way I see it, the majority of the worlds are not in combat. If every world was a struggling warzone, then there would be no way the Empire could flourish. You need plenty of off site combat free zones that provide the materials for the planets that are, especially when you have such things as the Imperial Guard and the SMs to fund and supply. Plus you see places where Imperial Guard go on leave to rest up, and lets not forget those pleasure worlds or whatever that the high ups get to par take of.
> 
> And as for the Khorne honor part, you ruined your argument when you said that as the World Eaters continued they became even more blood thirsty animals. The way I see it, away from Khorne you are honorable, the closer you are, the more of a blood thirsty lunatic. Honor doesn't seem to play a real factor in the Khorne way of life.
> 
> ...


Knows the fluff down pact you say? 

Does that mean you`ll shut up if I get Child of the Emperor or Baron Spikey to verify what most of us have been repeating over and over? Because clearly I`m not qualified. /sarcasm

And your examples of peaceful worlds do exist as part of the _Imperium_ but bear in mind that humanity is not the sole feeder of Chaos. There are many alien races whose deeds fuel the whims of the gods, and for the most part the warzones outnumber the peaceful zones. Even the planets supposedly in peace have to deal with civil unrest and rebellion from time to time.

And you`re welcome to theorise all you want. If you want to post a happy pile of crap though, put in up in Homebrew Fluff where it belongs and see how well it does.

Chaos represents emotional extremes. Everything to do with war and conflict, will eventually involve killing. Hence even the noblest of warriors will eventually be pushed to the extreme and become a bloodthirsty murderer.

Even a fine artist will be pushed to the extreme and go further and further in his desire for perfection. 

Can you see yet? Even the good side of everything can be pushed and twisted into something horrifying and cruel.

Chaos, at least in the 40kverse, represents the ultimate truth. It will only change when the mortals who feed it do. Unfortunately, the time of that being possible has long since passed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gally912 said:


> I'm going to add significant weight to this discourse with my two cents of:
> 
> I think norm's right.


That made me chuckle. :laugh:



Serpion5 said:


> Because clearly I`m not qualified.


I could have told you that _Serp_. 



CJay said:


> If you think about it, how often are you angry? sad? jealous? lust? Not anywhere close to as often as you are content and happy. A person is usually happy 70% of the time, 90% if your not counting the small bs flares everyone gets.


Your thinking in terms of us. The 40k universe is infinitely different.



CJay said:


> So why is there no gods of happiness, or joy in the warp??


See below. But of course it is plausable there are, either Slaanesh or minor manifestions.



CJay said:


> So how are you going to tell me there is no form of happiness being represented in the warp?


As far as i've read no one has said that. Most people seem to generally be saying Slaanesh is the deity your looking for.



CJay said:


> PS. Blood for the blood god does not = honor. and Decay and withering of all things does not = tradition. In fact, the tradition part symbolizing Nurgle is so dumb, I question the writer who thought of that. Seriously, tradition usually means, keeping the same, not changing. Yet somehow a diety who bases his entire existence on the break down of all substances is considered the symbol of tradition....


The general point is that mortals give such reflections and labels to the chaos gods, which in turn does have an effect on the god itself. But ultimately all Khorne does desire is the flow of blood (being the manifestation of rage and hatred), but individuals do initially turn into his embrace because they perceive him as a honourable god of war. This perception may be true in certain aspects, but that doesn't distinguish the fact that ultimately, all Khorne desires is blood and skulls.



xNoPityx said:


> But does no one see my point? The attitude of the denizens of the warp are supposed to be a reflection of the psyche of sentient beings, nothing more, nothing less, and yet the gods are shown to twist innocent action into more violent ones. This implies that the gods prefer the darkest examples of emotion.


There are several possible justifications for the nature of chaos. 

1. Firstly what the nature of the chaos gods seems to suggest is an underlying trend in the psyche of the psychic mortal races. A trend predominantly centered around _'negative'_ emotions. In some cases it may seem otherwise but ultimately there is no fooling the warp in this regard, each mortal being directly connected to the warp (via their soul) results in their *true* nature, emotions, thoughts and actions manifesting within the immaterium.

2. Either that, or that throughout the universe the most prevalent emotions by far are ones that some people would describe as _'negative'_. This in part is supported by the following quote:

_"In the warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of warpspace." - Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th ed, page 8._

This would suggest that there simply isn't enough of a concentration of (what some would call) _'positive'_ emotion in order for manifestations of such emotions to come forth, simply because such beings have not arisen.

3. Or it could be that _'positive'_ emotions are prevalent enough, but instead of such things bringing forth autonomous and seperate deities, they are represented by being inherent within the Four. This is supported by the following quotes:

_"...As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew, so too did their *hopes and dreams*, their rage and wars, their *love* and hatred, feeding the chaos gods and nurturing their power..." - Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th ed, page 8._

_"Hope, love, hate. All are but desire by other names. Thus it is that desire is always foremost amongst the concerns of mortals, and through their desires we shall lead them into our benighted paradise." - Proclamations of Elsand'daa'arai: Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th ed, page 33._ (This proclamation in part justifying the nature and power of Slaanesh) 

This would suggest that certain _'positive'_ emotions are actually present and inherent within the chaos gods. Either such emotions are not as they seem (see point. 1 and as the Proclamations of Elsand'daa'arai would suggest above), they are not prevalent enough to install any form of what we (as humans) would perceive as _'goodness'_ (for want of a better word) into the nature of the chaos gods, or that such emotions are warped and twisted so much as to be powerless or meaningless (see point. 5).

4. Another possibility is that _'positive'_ emotions are present within the warp, and have actually brought forth autonomous (albeit minor) gods. This further brings forth several options. Either they are not powerful enough to have a significant impact on the warp/galaxy/universe, that they have been consumed by the Four (possibly supporting point. 3), or that their nature means that they don't support policies of interventionism.

5. _'positive'_ emotions are warped and twisted (to correspond with the sheer chaotic nature of the empyrean initially dictated by the war in heaven) into what are represented by the Four.

PS. I havn't read this entire thread as of yet, so forgive me is such points have already arisen.



xNoPityx said:


> If chaos feeds on any emotion whether negative or positive, why start the horus hersey at all? The great crusade seems an ideal situation for the gods if they don't care how dark those emotions that feed them are.


The initiation of the wars of the Horus Heresy were to remove the Emperor as a threat, which in turn protected and ensured the flow of emotion. Remember for the most part the chaos gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals, and their primary concern is the _'eternal flow of emotion across aeons'_.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

You have to remember that everything is to the extreme in the Warp, and good and evil are points of view.

Thus if Humanity sees the Emporer as the only force of good, then being the largest psychic factor in the Warp anything in opposition with the Emporers beliefs will be in excess and "evil".


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

CJay said:


> And as for the Khorne honor part, you ruined your argument when you said that as the World Eaters continued they became even more blood thirsty animals. The way I see it, away from Khorne you are honorable, the closer you are, the more of a blood thirsty lunatic. Honor doesn't seem to play a real factor in the Khorne way of life.


But the thing with Khorne, and the other Chaos Gods I might add, is that _it doesn't matter_. The "Khorne way of life" may not place such emphasis on martial honor, but Khorne feeds off of it as much as he feeds on slaughter and blood spilled in his name or otherwise. No matter what you do, you'll be serving the Chaos Gods one way or another.

Proximity doesn't matter, either. Just because a Khornate is far away from the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom does not mean that he'll suddenly become more honorable. Otherwise, you wouldn't have bloodthirsty Chaos Lords like Lord Crull all the way on Lorn V or non-Astartes armies like the Blood Pact who regularly show their devotion to Khorne with loyalist blood but are all the way out near the Sabbat worlds.

It is true that the World Eaters were indeed in the Eye of Terror when Kharn fractured them at Skalathrax, but leaving the Eye of Terror and going a fair ways away from it is not going to make them reunify, at least not out of a sense of commitment to their Primarch. Nowhere was this seen more clearly than in the First War of Armageddon and in the Dominion of Fire campaigns, both led by Angron himself.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

The thing is, it isn't so much that Chaos is evil per se, but rather that the warp represents emotion utterly unchained.

Think of it this way. In every person there are two forces; reason and emotion. When there's balance, a person is happy and does well. When there's an imbalance, you have problems. 

if yuo want a fine example of the war between the two aspects, just look at a cigarette ad in a magazine.

The typical cigarette ad appeals to emotion. It might depics some young, attractive people having a great time, all smiles, all very appealing. On the same page, in a box as big as life, you see a health warning that says, in effect "If you use this product it WILL KILL YOU."

The ad appeals to the emotion, the box appeals to the reason, (Consider, if you will, the implications of the fact that the ad is still effective.)

Chaos represents emotion without reason. No pattern, no balance, no control. Just pure, unfettered emotion gone amok. The reults are generally not good.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Well then if the majority of the Imperium is a god for saken shit hole, then no wonder Chaos is all about hate and extremes. This is why I like Eldar, they may have the whole soul devouring shit, but at least their civilization isn't as messed up.

Protoss I like your explanation of the Khorne idea. 

As for you Serpion, Your no longer paying attention to MY argument, and you all are repeating the same insufficient answer. I stated I understand the distortion part, I just wanted to know if there was a possibility for the "good energy" whatever to go somewhere. This is not homebrew fluff, this is speculation, which if you have a problem with, I guess you should reprimand yourself then since half your posts are a good portion of them are all speculation and not hardcore fluff.....


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> Well then if the majority of the Imperium is a god for saken shit hole, then no wonder Chaos is all about hate and extremes. This is why I like Eldar, they may have the whole soul devouring shit, but at least their civilization isn't as messed up.


The eldar way of life is to deny everything that they are. To be a rigid and diciplined individual with only one focus at a time. This lifestyle is horrifying, but they do it out of necessity. Little wonder many abandon the path to become rangers or pirates.

You`re a bit delusional if you think the eldar have it much better than the Imperium. But given the way you`ve been posting, that`s hardly a surprise.



CJay said:


> As for you Serpion, Your no longer paying attention to MY argument, and you all are repeating the same insufficient answer. I stated I understand the distortion part, I just wanted to know if there was a possibility for the "good energy" whatever to go somewhere. This is not homebrew fluff, this is speculation, which if you have a problem with, I guess you should reprimand yourself then since half your posts are a good portion of them are all speculation and not hardcore fluff.....


What was insuficient? You asked about the positive actions reflecting in the warp, and I (along with most others) repeatedly told you that the four powers cover everything one way or another. If you thought it insufficient, I`m sorry, but that`s just the way it is!

Let me be clear on this part as well, I have absolutely _no_ problem with homebrew. Answer me this, do you give any credibility to the existence of a fifth c`tan? Not many do, but regardless I posted such a thread anyway. Nor do I have any problem with speculation, had you said that earlier there could have been an entirely different direction taken with this exchange.



@CotE: I`ll topple you one day Child, you can be sure of that! :threaten:


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Seeing as how Im being labeled a troll for logical thinking, Im going to just spectate, guess you cant ask questions here. PS what about the act of creation? Creation is not the core of change, and can not be distorted into something under Tzeentch. Answer this, and what about the psychic reflection of just existing? Who represents existence? Answer this and you have effectively proven your point.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Don`t listen to the trollsayers. However negative I may have sounded, I love a good debate. :biggrin:

Also, I agree on Tzeentch. He is change, progress, regress, evolution, basically just change.

But I personally don`t equate him to creation either. It doesn`t fit the Primeordial Annihilator bit.


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