# New Marines



## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Since nobody appeared to stick this up already.......

As shamelessly stolen from BolS!

OK people, the dex is back from the printers and it's a real peach! Base rules written Jervis, trimmings written by Matthew Hoggard I think his name is.

The info bellow is 100% taken from a final print new SM dex.

Codex
144 pages. (twice he size of the necron dex)
Written by Jervis + Matt
Cover art of Ultramarines
Section for each of the Chapters of Legend (like Eldar Craftworlds in C:Eldar) but without any in-game rules.

General Marine Rules
Combat Squads works as codex Dark angels. 1 Heavy 1 special.
New marine rule, based on Ld, called Comabt tactics.
New Drop pod rule.
Traits dissapear.
Free frag grenades, krak grenades and bolt pistols.

Unit Rules
new techmarine rules has a new option in the form of the thunderfire
Master of the forge, has a conversion beamer.
new land raider variant, called the Redeemer with Str 6 AP3 flamer sponsons and twin linked assault cannon. Sallies like this and the colour section has one in sallies colours.
3 Dread variants. Again sallies seem to favour the new Ironclad Dread which is like a heavy assault/breaching dread. (AV13)
New Veteran rules - Tactical Vets (special ammo like death watch.), and Assault vets (can have jump packs and an assaulted array of nasty CC weapons) can deep strike and assault in the same turn.
Scout bikers will remain.
No two special weapons even for Sallies .
5 man terminator squads 1 heavy.
Commander in terminator armour on a bike or has a jump pack has no bearing on army selection. However special characters do.
Rites of battle is gone. But marine captain get Halos

Special Characters
11 specials which add chapter traits to your army, Calgar, Tigirius, Lysander, Shrike, Kronos, Sicarius, Kantor, Tu'Shan (WTF really hard guy probably the best SM charater in the game but at 200+ points...), Cassius, White Scar guy and scout character, all will have models.

Other Stuff
Drop pod kit looks similar to the forgworld kit but is hollow with seats around the edges and a control table in the middle. Storm bolter come down from the ceiling of the pod when deployed.
Drop pod kit priced about the same as rhino's (£18)
Codex release date is October
Plastic LR redeemer/crusader
Plastic Scout bikers, imaging scouts on scrambler bikes!
Retooled Plastic Land speeder + another new varient which works with scout squads call land speeder storm.
Scouts have helfire heavy bolter rouns but are WS and BS 3 and are still troops
Thunderfire a thuddgun/molemortar cross.
New metal range (I think more metal vets!..... again.... mmmm jump packs!)
New Sicarus now has hair and a beard! *shrugs* go figure!
Razor back has may weapon option, twin heavy bolter, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and Lascon and twin plasma guns.
New HQ units.

Marines are now what you may call pretty hard!

HQ

Specials
Captain
Master of the forge
Librarians
Chaplains

ELITES

Terminators
Vanguard Vets (tact vets)
??? Vets (assault vets)
Dreadnough
Venerable Dreadnought
Iornclad Dreadnought
Techmarines - Thunderfire

TROOPS

Tactical Marines
Scouts

TRANSPORTS

Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Land Speeder Strom (Scouts only)

ASSAULT

Assault Marines
Bikes
Scout Biks
Attack Bikes
Landspeeder

HEAVY SUPPORT

Preadator
Devastators
Vindicator
Wirlwind
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer"


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

*drool*

Yeah, I saw this over at the BolS, I'm thinking that I'm going to have lots of new toys to play with. Especially since I play a salamander's successor chapter. Yum. Sounds like what they decided to do was make some of the lesser used units (veterans, tech marines and razorbacks) more viable so that folks would start using them. I especially like the new options for razorbacks, as I have a few converted already for use in apocalypse battles.

On the other hand, it also looks like they decided to tone down units such as terminators. Having only one heavy in the squad kind of sucks. I wonder if they're going to make all heavy flamers str 6 ap 3. Then, I wouldn't feel so bad about losing one heavy weapon in the squad.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Dang...marines are getting a mess of new toys.

Nobody tell panda if you enjoy having ten fingers.
-Dirge


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## Ludoldus (Apr 8, 2008)

Excellent! There is no Black Templar character so that means my codex won't become redundant! Hurray!...

Ahem... Sounds pretty cool overall, although i don't think that Ironclad dread is really necessary, and i bet the shooty Veterans will get a whole bunch of crappy ammo (like deathwatch) instead of proper upgrades...

Also, How much Troop Capacity in that Redeemer? If its the same as a Crusader i might have to borrow one for my templars hehe...


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## Dialgus (May 7, 2008)

Hahaha more marines to convert to the side of my chaos forces. That new land raider could possible be a nice addition to my collection.I await more news on this topic and hopefully some pics from the codex itself(to retool my csm's to fight the new marines)


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## cheesetown (May 21, 2008)

sounds like good stuff to me


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## Ender (May 11, 2008)

as I read the post all I could think was how much faster can my guardsmen die? I dearly hope theres other things coming out to balance the SMs.


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## Shadwell (Apr 29, 2008)

Whoa, that's ridiculous and seems way over balanced.


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## Chase.man259 (Apr 30, 2008)

Besides no traits it almost like GW is listining to us in that we do want the armys to be balanced:shok: it really is shocking.

It really make me want to make some sallies just so i have an excuse to have 3 redeemers. :biggrin:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm a tad pissed that none of this new stuff seems to apply to the Chapters that were just redone like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. And why do Ultramarines get Veteran Assault Squad wannabes? That's just painful to me.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> And why do Ultramarines get Veteran Assault Squad wannabes? That's just painful to me.


I'll second that, That was one of the cool things about Blood Angels. Its nice to have a bunch of Jump Pack units cruising around the board.


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## lightmonkey (Apr 1, 2008)

dam so i am going to have to redesign the way my SM army works now.... still looks good though


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

oooooh man, now i have got problems. just when i started winning agaisnt them to. this just sucks, all though i do want to no more about the land speeder storm


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Chase.man259 said:


> Besides no traits it almost like GW is listining to us in that we do want the armys to be balanced:shok: it really is shocking.
> ...


Nooooo!

It's completely _shit_ that they've scrapped traits, it's one of the worst decisions they've made in recent years! Traits were what stopped every marine army being the same.

Sure they weren't perfect; people found ways to subvert them. But they needed tightening up, not scrapping.

I thought the writing was on the wall before the Eldar Codex came out, when the rumours about that changed from "Craftworlds get Traits" to "no, everything is allowed"; then the Legions effectively disappear from Codex CSM... and now this...

Bah humbug.

Oh well, I'm OK as I generally play Ultras when I'm going Codex. But I don't know if my Fists are gonna be coming out to play any time soon.

:cyclops of despond:


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## cheesetown (May 21, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I'm a tad pissed that none of this new stuff seems to apply to the Chapters that were just redone like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. And why do Ultramarines get Veteran Assault Squad wannabes? That's just painful to me.


true, If anything they made the Dark Angels a tad bit weaker, seems alot of there war gear is gone from the armory, and THEY LOST ASOMODI- he was like my fav char....rest in peace my freind lol


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

MarzM said:


> Section for each of the Chapters of Legend (like Eldar Craftworlds in C:Eldar) but without any in-game rules.
> 
> General Marine Rules
> Combat Squads works as codex Dark angels. 1 Heavy 1 special.
> ...


wait..



MarzM said:


> General Marine Rules
> Combat Squads works as codex Dark angels. 1 Heavy 1 special.
> New marine rule, based on Ld, called Comabt tactics.
> New Drop pod rule.
> ...


zoooming...



MarzM said:


> New marine rule, based on Ld, called Comabt tactics.
> New Drop pod rule.
> Traits dissapear.
> Free frag grenades, krak grenades and bolt pistols.
> ...


...


MarzM said:


> Free frag grenades, krak grenades and bolt pistols.





MarzM said:


> and bolt pistols.





MarzM said:


> bolt pistols





MarzM said:


> :shok:


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## Apoctis (Feb 14, 2008)

WOW again the marines get all thee cool stuff and no one else does but we shall see hmm?


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

Ender said:


> as I read the post all I could think was how much faster can my guardsmen die? I dearly hope theres other things coming out to balance the SMs.


Well, I believe that guardsmen are going to eventually get some love too. But as far as balancing the marines, I've been wondering when we were gonna get some lovin so we can be competitive without relying upon asscan spam, or drop pod assault armies.

Speaking of which, I need to post my army list a little later today for the RT Tourney coming up, and get some feedback.

I'm getting kind of tired getting shot up by FoF Tau armies.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Looks good to me,

Although it does mean that i've got to finish my chaos apocalypse army before october,

Only 5 land raiders and 5 squads of terminators to go.


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

the cabbage said:


> Looks good to me,
> 
> Although it does mean that i've got to finish my chaos apocalypse army before october,
> 
> Only 5 land raiders and 5 squads of terminators to go.


Only? Sheesh... :shok: How many points do you have?

<chuckles> 

I have to admit, I'm waiting for the new land raider varient with baited breath.


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## Chase.man259 (Apr 30, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Nooooo!
> 
> It's completely _shit_ that they've scrapped traits, it's one of the worst decisions they've made in recent years! Traits were what stopped every marine army being the same.
> 
> ...



I believe you misunderstood me i was saying that besides that it looks good. To me traites and things of that flavor are the only reason to create your own chapter without it you might aswell just be ultras.

Also the fact that dark angels and blood angels won't be involved will really piss him off because thoose are his armies of choiced XD/


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Likes in order of preference...


> Traits dissapear.
> Free frag grenades, krak grenades and bolt pistols.
> Razor back has may weapon option, twin heavy bolter, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and Lascon and twin plasma guns.
> New Veteran rules - Tactical Vets (special ammo like death watch.)
> ...


Dislikes with most hated at top...



> Written by Jervis + Matt
> new land raider variant, called the Redeemer with Str 6 AP3 flamer sponsons and twin linked assault cannon.
> new techmarine rules has a new option in the form of the thunderfire
> Master of the forge, has a conversion beamer.
> ...


Jervis and Matt have managed to ruin more fluff in this game than any other people known to man and it scares me to hear that they were responsible for re-writing this codex. If you ask me SM Codex only need a few minor tweaks to fix it and possibly revamp for 5th Edition. I am curious to see how the characters come out though.. I did like what they did with DA as far as Characters influencing army creation though..


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Great to hear that space marines are getting some nice new stuff, Rules wise couldt really care less what goes out of the window,never really understand the need for people to have traits anyway,surely if you wanted to be "different" you wouldnt be playing marines ?

I am wondering how many of the core space marine stuff will be getting retooled? and if so in what way ? and will we see a plastic terminator commander and a plastic commander on bike ? maybe even a command squad on a bike or in terminator armour ?


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## carlosdjakal (May 22, 2008)

Just when I thought I'd catch up on my painting.........


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Fluff has been well and trully been butchered by this. You won't find me using that new Land Speeder even if its given to me for free and you pay me. Its a crime that thing. 

The Land Raider, the Dreads and Vets are bearable as they are simply a change of weapons fit. 

I want to see the fluff of this book to see some justification for the inclusion of the Jabba the Huts floating palace.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

*Jacobite starts to choke*

" I find your lack of faith disturbing..........................."


:taunt:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I find the idea of units that can charge after Deep Striking very worrisome. Combine that with teleport homers and you will have abuse like never before.


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## Vxx (Feb 7, 2008)

Some of the changes look alright but the absence of chapter traits bothers me. Its cool that you get some traits if you take a special character because Im in the process of collecting a Raven Guard chapter but for those who have made their own, it bones them.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

no traits. i hope this doesnt mean no guard doctrines further down the line


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

Jacobite said:


> Fluff has been well and trully been butchered by this.
> 
> >> Im maybe being a bit of a twat here, but what fluffs been butchered? The addition of a speeder and a couple of dread variants? Please explain to me mate.:biggrin:


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Anything Jervis and Matt write kills fluff... Guaranteed.. they kill more fluff... well I was going to make some comment about hair clippers and women but I will keep my comments to myself considering the age of some of yall..


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

cccp said:


> no traits. i hope this doesnt mean no guard doctrines further down the line


It does. You might as well steel yourself for it now.


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## Master Kashnizel (Jan 5, 2008)

Damn it I wanted a Blood Raven's special character!  At least they have written some more fluff for them.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm going to be VERY pissed off if Blood Angels (and DA) don;t get access to this stuff in some kind of FAQ update.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Bishop120 said:


> Jervis and Matt have managed to ruin more fluff in this game than any other people known to man and it scares me to hear that they were responsible for re-writing this codex.





Jacobite said:


> Fluff has been well and trully been butchered by this. You won't find me using that new Land Speeder even if its given to me for free and you pay me. Its a crime that thing.
> 
> The Land Raider I can stomach... barely. The Dreads and Vets are bearable as they are simply a change of weapons fit.
> 
> I want to see the fluff of this book to see some justification for the inclusion of the Jabba the Huts floating palace.


Oh please, fluff is notorious for its lack of continuity and retcons and has developped quite well over the decades.
I don't see how the addition of a few new vehicle _variants_ could possibly ruin this army.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Galahad said:


> I'm going to be VERY pissed off if Blood Angels (and DA) don;t get access to this stuff in some kind of FAQ update.


Hey Gal, it’s all good. We have Dante who hands out preferred enemy, slap Corbolo close and that is one sick combo. Imagine re-rolling all those STR5/INT5 close combat attacks with in 12.” Pretty Gross IMHO…:shok:


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

If a couple of vetrens could please answer this; what is a conversion beamer? I'm sure someone has said that it's from an older edition.

Anyway, not completly happy with getting a new codex, and really don't like the new tanks. Why have they removed chapter traits and rites of battle? Now my poor little force commander won't have any reason to take to battle, all those librarians and chaplins can do just as well. Likely a lose of the armoury as well. The only thing I'm looking forward to is the combat squads rule. Finally my tact squads won't need to drag a heavy weapon around while trying to close with the enemy. Otherwise, I'll need to play with it a bit to see if all this moaning has been justified.

May the Emperor protect.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Fluff'Ead said:


> Oh please, fluff is notorious for its lack of continuity and retcons and has developped quite well over the decades.
> I don't see how the addition of a few new vehicle _variants_ could possibly ruin this army.


I aint talking bout the stupid vehicles.. Im talking bout how you take Legions of warriors who have been around since the Heresy and turn them into petty thugs and simple pirates. The scary thing about when Abadum would run a Black Crusade was that he would actually get the Legions organized and it would take 10-20 CHAPTERS of Space Marines as well as whole planets full of Guard to to hold off a crusade. Now a crusade is when more than 1-2 thugs work together to raid a planet together. Their used to be a real reason that Chaos got 20 man units because that was how they were taught by their Primarchs back prior to the Heresy. Death Guard/TSons/Berserkers/Slushis were from their Legion.. not just people who dedicated themselves to those gods. There used to be a good reason to dedicate your entire army to one god now the opposite is encouraged (mix army). Yeah I am a fluff head. Byte me.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> It does. You might as well steel yourself for it now.


can they not do anything right? seriously, the doctrines make a guard army a guard army.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Fluff'Ead said:


> Oh please, fluff is notorious for its lack of continuity and retcons and has developped quite well over the decades.
> I don't see how the addition of a few new vehicle _variants_ could possibly ruin this army.


There's lack of continuity and then there is completely changing the use of a vechile and then saying "oh by the way, all the chapters had these but you were never told about them", or, "We just found a STC of this Land Speeder, now you all suddenly have them". Slight difference there I'm afraid. Its not a small change its a pretty bloody huge one.

Like I said I can handle the variant Land Raider/Dreads, they are weapon refits and the like. Precident has been set up with the Crusader, Helos etc

However: the Land Speeder Storm (or what ever they want to call the abomination) is not a simple weapons refit by any stretch of the imagination. To make a land speeder into a transport you need to extend it something cronic. How the hell is a hover craft stealthy may I ask?

I would go so far as to say that if I had made up some DIY rules for something like this I would have been shot down before the paint dryed on the mini. Just because JJ says its right it makes it ok?

Once again SM's get a shit load of love and other armies are left out in the cold. I wonder how many new units IG will be getting? or when DE will get a new Dex?

Yes SM's are the poster boys, why? because they are the only range that is kept current. If you were to join the hobby new today what would you want; a army that hasn't been updated since 2002? or one that is constantly getting new fancy things to play with?

Before I was fine with this but now that the fluff (the main reason I play this game) is getting ripped up and thrown out I'm to starting to get a little peeved (you may have guessed that though).


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Bishop120 said:


> I aint talking bout the stupid vehicles.. Im talking bout how you take Legions of warriors who have been around since the Heresy and turn them into petty thugs and simple pirates.


Weren't you talking about how Jervis and Matt managed to ruin the fluff?
As for Gavs and Alessios CSM Codex - it doesn't invalidate established fluff, it simply lacks the variety to represent it.
SM on the other hand will get 11 special characters with attached traits.







Jacobite said:


> There's lack of continuity and then there is completely changing the use of a vechile and then saying "oh by the way, all the chapters had these but you were never told about them", or, "We just found a STC of this Land Speeder, now you all suddenly have them". Slight difference there I'm afraid. Its not a small change its a pretty bloody huge one.


Sometimes it's a bigger change and sometimes not. 
That's how we lost the Squats, the Ultramarines became a first founding chapter, the Defiler was introduced into the CSM background and the Chaos Vindi has become a non IW-exclusive vehicle choice. 
They do it all the time, throughout the editions.




Jacobite said:


> How the hell is a hover craft stealthy may I ask?


Dunno. Is a LS supposed to be stealthy at all?




Jacobite said:


> I would go so far as to say that if I had made up some DIY rules for something like this I would have been shot down before the paint dryed on the mini. Just because JJ says its right it makes it ok?


I've seen people getting away with Chaos Tau, female SM and even sillier things. What's a bigger LS compared to that?
And speaking of DIY:












Jacobite said:


> Once again SM's get a shit load of love and other armies are left out in the cold. I wonder how many new units IG will be getting? or when DE will get a new Dex?


Yes, we all know that no other army gets the same support like SM. 
It's definitely not fair but it wouldn't be different without these new vehicles.


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## Shamrok (Feb 14, 2008)

I might be starting to like this new dex idea


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Fluff'Ead said:


> Weren't you talking about how Jervis and Matt managed to ruin the fluff?
> As for Gavs and Alessios CSM Codex - it doesn't invalidate established fluff, it simply lacks the variety to represent it.
> SM on the other hand will get 11 special characters with attached traits.


I think Jervis had a hand in the making of the codex, people continued to blame him for it and he formally apologized at some sort of convention. The details are hazy to me, but I'm fairly certain his stain was on it.
And as a SMALL error in the codex they still show Ygethmor as alive(Abaddon's chosen) and he died during the last campaign against whomever was the eldar leader.




Fluff'Ead said:


> Sometimes it's a bigger change and sometimes not.
> That's how we lost the Squats, the Ultramarines became a first founding chapter, the Defiler was introduced into the CSM background and the Chaos Vindi has become a non IW-exclusive vehicle choice.
> They do it all the time, throughout the editions.


Don't forget to mention that the primarchs suddenly didn't all "die out" like they did in the second edition rulebook.
Also the vindicator was an apology to all the iron warrior players.




Fluff'Ead said:


> Dunno. Is a LS supposed to be stealthy at all?


I'd prefer my scouts quiet and stealthy, not just be "shitty, cheaper marines", kinda makes sense that an army choice created mostly for the fact it infiltrates to not be flying about in the loudest thing they could find.





Fluff'Ead said:


> I've seen people getting away with Chaos Tau, female SM and even sillier things. What's a bigger LS compared to that?
> And speaking of DIY:


The thing looks like a gutted helicopter without the blades. It might be the angle, I'm unsure, but it just seems like "Hey, spess mehreins don't have a skimmer yet that can carry troops..."



Fluff'Ead said:


> Yes, we all know that no other army gets the same support like SM.
> It's definitely not fair but it wouldn't be different without these new vehicles.


Honestly I couldn't give a crap less about spess mehreins getting new vehicles, they usually have some picks of the litter. I'm rather offended by the fact they just made your basic army choice a vanilla chaos marine that won't fall back, and carry better weapons with fewer ablative wounds.


Personally, I love the idea of a new marine dex. It'd be a nice diversion til they get a properly done chaos codex out.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

Sounds like the Salamanders are getting some lovin' what with the mention of Tu'Shan and the very Sallie sounding LandRaider.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

There are shite things and there are good things there. if it's been seen now and not out til October then it could be to get some input from forums like this to improve on things. It might not be the final list. There's still 5 months til it comes out... anything can happen between now and then....


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Is that Land Speeder a conversion or the model coming out? I just don't like the look of it...


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## Master Kashnizel (Jan 5, 2008)

Who the hell is this Kronos guy?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

bl0203 said:


> Is that Land Speeder a conversion or the model coming out? I just don't like the look of it...


It's a coversion. There was an article on custom land raiders on the site ages back.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The speeder above is a conversion.

Kronos... is Kronos. Who knows. More importantly, who cares? I find named characters a sort of dumb part of the game, tbh, and I really don't care for the emphasis that's been put on taking them lately. If it were up to me, they'd live in the happy meadows of fluff-land, and the rules for them would be identical to the appropriate unit entry. The only exception to that attitude really is Belial and Sammael in the Dark Angels codex, purely because they're just plain Captains with their Chapter's badge of office for their particular Company.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

That's what a lot of these characters are going to be, I'm sure. Just a slightly improved Captain with a fixed set of wargear and an extra FOC alteration.

Just rename the guy to fit your own fluff.

My Lemartes isn't really Lem, he's my company chaplain...I just decided to pay the extra 5 points and get a death mask and extra wound.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

There's still this indescribable stigma attached in my mind, somehow. Like, seeing Dante hopping around in every single game, even if it's not "Dante"-- it just seems odd somehow. Can't quite put my finger on it. I figure that even if it isn't something particularly gripe-worthy, I'm still allowed to moan and groan about it because I'm an old goat in the hobby, as these things go.


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

ok i totally dis agree with the land speeder variant i mean a army only just grasping the concept of anti gravity with 4 hover craft variants. And the fact that they only go off old designs, wouldnt they be going back to where people thought that there was no marine spirit? although the tanks variants, fair enough as someone said before me, they are only weapon refits


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## PUGNUS (May 10, 2008)

ok. 1-'where the fuck is lysander?' are we being told that we Imperial Fists, one of the most famous and glorious first founding chapters, is getting no special character?! Or do we get one of the new, unknown dudes?
2 Are the new land raider and dread only for sallies? or can we all have them? if so is there going to be models for them, or is it a conversion thing?
3 The DE are getting a new codex, i know this personally, models r gonna be kick ass! When, well it was like in creation a month or so back, might be finished now tbph.
4 And can we be told about the special characters, ie chapter etc

Thanks
PUGNUS


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

i think he died, although i'm not 100% sure


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## PUGNUS (May 10, 2008)

I know people say lysander died, but so did elrad ulthran, and he's still fighting!!!


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It says in the 4th. ed. description of him"til the appointed day of his death" doesn't mean he died. Same with abbaddon's apprentice thingy...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lysander is in the list of special characters plus Kantor is either an Imperial Fist Chaplain or a character for the Crimson Fists (I can never remember).


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Doesn't matter if Lysander's dead or not. Eldrad's been dead for ages. That useless wanker Tycho is still stinking up the Blood Angels codex after having he decency to die back during the Armageddon campaign.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

And Kantor (AKA Cantor) is Chapter Master of the _Crimson_ Fists at the time of the Rynn's World Disaster.

:know your enemy cyclops:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It doesn't matter if they're dead or not. There are so many inconsistencies in Space marine fluff that a few guys being dead or not doesn't really matter.... If there's a proper reason for having the land speeder variant in the codex, due to them finding an STC and if there is references to similar vehicles in older sources, books old edition codices that stuff it should be some bit related to fluff but I doubt that. Soon they might find The jetbike STC and piss off Sammael:angry:


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## shaggy bandito (May 12, 2008)

It's completely _shit_ that they've scrapped traits, it's one of the worst decisions they've made in recent years! Traits were what stopped every marine army being the same.

That doesn't begin to compare to the pain felt when they destroyed the Legions, gifts of the gods, Bloodletters, etc. An entire World Eaters army rendered bland as vanilla pudding. Just sounds like we'll all have the same army eventually.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

@ Bandito; if you say so mate, as I'm not a Chaos player, I couldn't really say.



Lord Reevan said:


> ... Soon they might find The jetbike STC and piss off Sammael:angry:


Ah yes, the good old days when the entire Raven's Wing had jetbikes... I still have the army list somewhere (I never actually fielded it, of course!). Can't help thinking it would be awesome.

:nostalgic cyclops:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Wait there was an army list for it? I just said it as the way they're going they're getting rid of special army vehicles. Like the redeemer is nothing but a Baal land raider


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Yeah; when 40k first came out, and the Ultramarines were a 3rd Founding Chapter with shuriken pistols and a half-Eldar Chief Librarian, all the Raven's Wing (all 100 of them) had jetbikes.

Crazy days.

:if you can remember it you weren't there cyclops:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

weird... the old fluff didn't make much sense but by god it gave it character and that's what it's all about!!:victory:


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## freepizza (May 23, 2008)

But who else remebers when they used to have a sections in White Dwarf called "Modeling Workshop". Back when they didn't have a the kits available for all options and they gave step by step kit bashing guides. The mighty Landraider Spartan, Rhino Sabre Tank hunter, Baneblade, Vindicator, Whirlwind etc. Heck they were well written and came with photo copyable templates to use. But then I'm also been in it long enough to remeber when stuff came two to a kit...


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## Sniper (Mar 9, 2008)

Why must traits Die???????:shok: my SM wont be able to have 3 attacks on the charge for tac marines anymore:ireful2:....... I smell napalm.... why do i smell napalm

Sniper


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Fluff and rules and options have been changing for decades...I'd like to see what all the people crying about a new land speeder feel about the Crusader, which didn't exist til late third edition, and weren;t part of the main codex til 4th.

Lascannon predators are a fairly recent invention too. Don;t remember them when I started playing. 

Where do you draw the line? I came in at 2nd edition. By all rights, I shouldn't have assault marines as troops for BA, my Death Company should be loaded down with plasma pistols and hand flamers (though they'd have to give up their jump packs), no furiosos, and only flamers for my newly invented Baal predator.

If you use any of the things (including fluff) that were invented for 3rd edition or 4th edition, then you've got no right to whine and cry about new things being included or changed in 5th.

Seriously, kids...do some research and take a look at what the game was like back in the day and tell me it's a travesty when they change things.



shaggy bandito said:


> It's completely _shit_ that they've scrapped traits, it's one of the worst decisions they've made in recent years! Traits were what stopped every marine army being the same.


That's funny, I thought the thing that stopped every marine army from being the same was the paint, fluff, modeling and list choices that the owning player put into it.

Traits were just the fucked up, massively broken rules they tacked on in 4th to get around having to update all of the little white dwarf army lists. There's no grand tradition for it, it's just some superfluous junk they tacked on last time. They're just fixing an error they made, that's all.

Imagine some future kid reading 6th edition rumors and throwing a tantrum because they deleted the scout speeder and the flamer land raider and you'll see just exactly what this sort of reaction looks like to anyone who's played the game for more than one edition.

It looks like DIY chapters will have to go back to actually being creative.
Buy a character that grants abilities you want. Give him a new name, even a new model, then tailor your list to fit your background.

I'm not saying it's an ideal system, I'm just saying it's not the end of the world. Editions change, and *every* time they change, so does the fluff and the rules.

Get used to it. Take it as a rite of passage.


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## Sniper (Mar 9, 2008)

meh I see your point..... how did hand flamers work (I only joined in during 4th ED)

Sniper


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Hand flamers used a tiny little flamer template that, if you were practically in base to base, you might be able to touch two models with.

Heavy flamers used to have their own template too, if I recall


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## Deprived_angels (Feb 13, 2008)

Sniper said:


> Why must traits Die???????:shok: my SM wont be able to have 3 attacks on the charge for tac marines anymore:ireful2:....... I smell napalm.... why do i smell napalm
> 
> Sniper



The traits are the best thing in my space marine army it allow every tac squad of myne infiltration that has won me many a battles, the traits are all the SM have to make the different (aside different codexs)


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Sniper said:


> Why must traits Die???????:shok: my SM wont be able to have 3 attacks on the charge for tac marines anymore:ireful2:....... I smell napalm.... why do i smell napalm


Actually you'll get three attacks on the charge for FREE now as you come armed as a chaos marine, bolter, bolt pistol and CCW for free.



Galahad said:


> Fluff and rules and options have been changing for decades...I'd like to see what all the people crying about a new land speeder feel about the Crusader, which didn't exist til late third edition, and weren;t part of the main codex til 4th.
> 
> Lascannon predators are a fairly recent invention too. Don;t remember them when I started playing.
> 
> ...


The champions of the chaos gods used to have chaos daemons in a competitive list. Hahahah...but no in all seriousness, the fluff changes with everybook nowadays, and it's not a huge problem unless the changes 'cheapen' the fluff.
I guess it's indescribable, but the best thing I can think of to define it is "Worse writing" not "Worse fluff"?





Galahad said:


> Get used to it. Take it as a rite of massage.


Don't you massage my rites!


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

bah, embarassing typos.

But I think you've got the right attitude, Waffles.

Unless the actual writing is poorly done, or the fluff is altered in such a way as to fundamentally destroy or cheapen a chapter (such as saying the Templars were excommunicated for being child molestors or something), there's no point in getting worked up over it.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Actually you'll get three attacks on the charge for FREE now as you come armed as a chaos marine, bolter, bolt pistol and CCW for free.


Wrongo. If the Dark and Blood Angel rules are anything to go by, the loyalists will be missing the close combat weapon and will have to make do with only a bolter, pistol, frags and kraks. [sarcasm] Poor loyalists. They're so hard done by. [/sarcasm]


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Galahad said:


> bah, embarassing typos.
> 
> But I think you've got the right attitude, Waffles.
> 
> Unless the actual writing is poorly done, or the fluff is altered in such a way as to fundamentally destroy or cheapen a chapter (such as saying the Templars were excommunicated for being child molestors or something), there's no point in getting worked up over it.



*Then they should've never named their lastest LR Crusader; "Peewee's Playhouse".....*










and for all you Matrix Morpheus fans........










guest starring Tu-shun of the Salamanders as COWBOY CURTIS!
















based on the design studio's leaked preliminary sketch from above, I personally can not wait to see this new sculpt of the Salamanders Chapter Master.

really hoping the admantium-reinforced button-down cowboy collars and Iron Halo/Steer-Skull Bolo-Necktie make it into the final mold...

Sallies getting love indeed!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Wrongo. If the Dark and Blood Angel rules are anything to go by, the loyalists will be missing the close combat weapon and will have to make do with only a bolter, pistol, frags and kraks. [sarcasm] Poor loyalists. They're so hard done by. [/sarcasm]





MarzM said:


> The info below is 100% taken from a final print new SM dex.
> ----------
> General Marine Rules
> Combat Squads works as codex Dark angels. 1 Heavy 1 special.
> ...


They...ARE missing the CCW! But...A CCW is anything from a twig to an open hand to a roaring chainsaw on a sword!
The battle-hardened super warriors of the 41 century can't just backhand people? Hahah...sweet. Maybe we'll have a slight bit of division between the emperor blessed marines and the..uhm...not quite so good ones.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Bloods and Darks didn't get chainswords, I was never expecting for a minute that regular SM would.

However, I suspect Wolves will get the full chaos loadout when their update comes.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I suspect the Space Wolves will beat their opponents to death with a tankard of ale in one hand and a rack of mutton in the other.

Hopefully GW will consider a 40-pound ceramite-encased fist a CCW.
-Dirge


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Hand flamers used a tiny little flamer template that, if you were practically in base to base, you might be able to touch two models with.
> 
> Heavy flamers used to have their own template too, if I recall


They did. I think I still have all those templates around here.... some place...


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## PUGNUS (May 10, 2008)

Hey, sorry, i kinda missed entirely lysanders name on the special characters list....

Panic over. Thanks for the partial reassurance.
PUGNUS


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Seriously, kids...do some research and take a look at what the game was like back in the day and tell me it's a travesty when they change things.


Aye, I want my Jakero Finger weapons back, and while we're at it pass me the Graviton Gun.. hehe. :angel:


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## Lioneljohnson510 (May 28, 2008)

well the ultramarines get assult squads because there panzeis and dark angles are fine there vets take 2 pwr wepons amazing in close combat and nobody likes the blood angles

When do the mariens oficially com out


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Lioneljohnson510 said:


> well the ultramarines get assult squads because there panzeis and dark angles are fine there vets take 2 pwr wepons amazing in close combat and nobody likes the blood angles


What do you mean DA are fine and nobody likes BA? Blood angel vets get 3 power weapons, lightning claws or thunderhammers in the one squad. The old DA codex gave them decent rules but they had drawbacks for those rules. Now they have beter rules And no drawback that I can see apart from scouts as elites which BA have too. IMHO they're a bit unfair nowadays... 

And The new SM codex is coming out either in AUgust or October. I'd say october though...


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## CaptainBailean (Feb 20, 2008)

thats so lame that everybody else gets vet assault marines! BOOOOOOO i cannot begin to describe how outraged i am at this, THOSE ARE MY SPECIAL TROOPS!!!!!!

and johnson, watch your step pal, there are a bunch of us BA fans on here that will tear your heart out


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## Syzyx (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, if Pedro Cantor is back in the game, I may have to reconsider my position on the new edition. I'll finally be able to field a commander as incompetent as I am! I just hope he gets some special rules that let him survive the tremendously stupid things he makes his forces do. Though probably he'll just get chosen enemy orks.

By the Emperor I love the Crimson Fists. Ryker's World Massacre? Hell, man, we were all in bed when our armoury got bombed!


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It was one of the biggest pieces of fluff that made pace marines look stupid. And its Rynns's world. Riker is the beardy Officer on Star trek:biggrin:


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## Death 0F Angels (Feb 27, 2008)

lmao........


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

Quick question: With all the new character's being added to the marine codex, it is going to be incrediably unlikely that they all affect the FoC, right? In that case, what is going to happen when you transfer the new marines into apocalypse? Considering that there are still apoc datasheets coming out, it doesn't look like its going anywhere fast. Would it then be possible to have a master chapter, with every possible upgrade, because the player can simply take all the characters?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I do love my apoc games, and at least with the traits system I did have limits on what I could do to the army.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Apocalypse broke Trailts anyway, though. "You get 12 bike squads but can't take Droop Pods? Ha! I can take as many bike squads as I like, because it's Apocalypse, but I can ignore the drawback that says I can't have Anihilators! BWAHAHA!" etc.

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to have all the characters from a chapter in an Apocalypse game. Just don't put them all in the same gold-plated Landraider... :wink:

:targetting cyclops:


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

i think I am going to begin playing "Black Exemplars" when this comes out. it just sounds too awesome


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Galahad said:


> ...
> That's funny, I thought the thing that stopped every marine army from being the same was the paint, fluff, modeling and list choices that the owning player put into it.
> 
> Traits were just the fucked up, massively broken rules they tacked on in 4th to get around having to update all of the little white dwarf army lists. There's no grand tradition for it, it's just some superfluous junk they tacked on last time. They're just fixing an error they made, that's all...


Actually Gal, he was quoting me but messed up.

I agree completely that things change. As I posted earlier, I started back in the days when marines had jetbikes and shuriken pistols. I took a few years off in the 90s and when I came back... no longer (oh, my poor shuriken pistol sergeant, will he ever see the light of day again?)

But I do think that traits were a great idea. Not so well done; but they needed fixing not scrapping. There could be other ways of doing it; you could make certain units 'exclusive' (if you take unit A, you can't take unit Z); they could make more units a 0-1 selection; they could do what they do in fantasy and say 'this units takes 2 slots'.

But I think there's a case for having restrictions on units, which is what traits are. Even the ones that appear to be relaxations of the rules (eg, taking bikes as troops, elites and fast attack) just point up the _restriction_ on everyone else who _can't_ take bikes in all those slots.

But yeah; I thought traits were a brave attempt to inject a bit of sideways thinking into list building. As I say, I don't think they worked too well, but I think the attempt was necessary. I forsee a (not-too-distant) future where all lists look pretty much the same (and I think BA are well down that road already, your valiant attempts at mobile-melta rhino-rush BA notwithstanding). 

Still; sic transit gloria mundi and all that. Proof of pudding etc. Who knows? I might find I don't miss them at all. Anyway, I mostly play Ultras, so, pfft. Not sure my Fists are coming out to play soon though (maybe a last fling nexy week...)

:reflective cyclops:


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## Blood Lust (May 14, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I'm a tad pissed that none of this new stuff seems to apply to the Chapters that were just redone like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. And why do Ultramarines get Veteran Assault Squad wannabes? That's just painful to me.



^^^
i totally agree why do ultras get the ups and other chapters dont especially my blood angels??


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> It doesn't matter if they're dead or not. There are so many inconsistencies in Space marine fluff that a few guys being dead or not doesn't really matter.... If there's a proper reason for having the land speeder variant in the codex, due to them finding an STC and if there is references to similar vehicles in older sources, books old edition codices that stuff it should be some bit related to fluff but I doubt that. Soon they might find The jetbike STC and piss off Sammael:angry:


it might be becuase the lost primarchs come back


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