# Why don't other armies make Space Marines



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

So o dont get I realise that the imperium uses the emperor's/ primarchs DNA to make them, but what about just plain genetics and armour. For example tau have battle suits but why not try make something as powerful and tough armor and give them standardised better fire warrior armour. The same goes for eldar and the like. Why no similar alien space marines


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

The Eldar would probably find such things abhorrent.

As for the Tau etc, I have no idea :scratchhead:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The Irish Commissar said:


> So o dont get I realise that the imperium uses the emperor's/ primarchs DNA to make them, but what about just plain genetics and armour. For example tau have battle suits but why not try make something as powerful and tough armor and give them standardised better fire warrior armour. The same goes for eldar and the like. Why no similar alien space marines


The tau are advanced in some areas and still gaining grounds in other, the closest the tau have got to standard power armor is shadowsun's armor, which is still in the alpha stage of testing. The experimental pilot suit is kind of like the black carapace but for tanks.

Like tawa said Eldar are to stuck up to care.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Imperium has billions upon billions of soldiers. To equip each or even a majority would be astronomically costly. 

The Imperial Guard's main strength is their numbers coupled with their discipline.

If you want a logical answer as to why the Eldar for example don't make up their own equivalent of the Imperium's primarchs/space-marines, you won't get one.

Lore wise there are multiple reasons primarily their beliefs and mentality. Plus they don't really need equivalents. 

The Tau are still a fledgling race and so their grasp on DNA is not even close to the Imperium. They haven't had an impetus as well to develop superhuman warriors like humanity did during the Age of Strife/Great Crusade.


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

The kroot do, in so much as they alter their DNA to adapt to a particular role on the battlefield. Maybe kroot marines will one day conquer the galaxy?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Iraqiel said:


> The kroot do, in so much as they alter their DNA to adapt to a particular role on the battlefield. Maybe kroot marines will one day conquer the galaxy?


I would love to see a kroot 'marine'.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Just in seem strange that Tau are so far a head in tech in comparison with the imperium but far behind in terms of DNA. I thought that would be something would take great interest in. As for eldar i know they're stuck up, sure i play them as my main army but if you take biel tan for example are always looking for an extra advantage in combat so they once again become powerful. Its not like they dont have the tech and im sure they could make some more graceful version then the imperium.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Imperium has billions upon billions of soldiers. To equip each or even a majority would be astronomically costly.
> 
> The Imperial Guard's main strength is their numbers coupled with their discipline.
> 
> ...


I understand why the imperial guard cant but i mean more on the alien side of things. It's not like they havn't had a chance to look inside or anything.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Wraithguard are basically Eldar space marines. They put them in specially designed bodies that are stronger, tougher and better armored.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You mean Dreadnoughts. 

@Irish: the Tau are not tech. superior to the Imperium. Just in some aspects.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The Irish Commissar said:


> Just in seem strange that Tau are so far a head in tech in comparison with the imperium but far behind in terms of DNA. I thought that would be something would take great interest in. As for eldar i know they're stuck up, sure i play them as my main army but if you take biel tan for example are always looking for an extra advantage in combat so they once again become powerful. Its not like they dont have the tech and im sure they could make some more graceful version then the imperium.


Respectfully, the other races are comparitive to the Space Marines, especially the Eldar. Given warriors may be lesser or greater than their counterparts in another army.

On the gene-crafting , I think it would also come down to a trade-off in what you're juicing them up with to achieve a specific result. Sure, the eldar could bio-engineer one of their kind to be as tall as an Avatar of Khaine, strong as a Primarch, and smart as Eldrad, but then what? Bow down and kiss their feet? Everything in the Eldar environment is designed for their species and now you're introducing a new element. Or possibly they did 15 million years ago and realized that a super Eldar giant tends to become hyper-egotistical, even more so than their normal narcissim, and tries to take over the universe for themselves, so no more of those.

On the Tau side, I would think the Ethereals would be incredibly cautious about upsetting the apple cart, considering the implications of Commander Farsight's 'liberation'. A super Tau warrior might turn around and wonder why they're even listening to the Ethereals, so they'll become the new Tau Emperor. Compared to the other races, the Tau developing gene-crafting to make anything close to an Astares are still another 10,000 years in the making.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The Irish Commissar said:


> Just in seem strange that Tau are so far a head in tech in comparison with the imperium but far behind in terms of DNA.


The Tau really aren't ahead of the Imperium in basically every tech field bar plasma weapons. The Imperium builds bigger, faster, stronger and more reliable tech than the Tau almost across the board.



> I thought that would be something would take great interest in.


I think genetic engineering would go against the Tau's caste system. Each caste is bred for a specific role, everyone in Tau society is born with a per-determined role to play in it. Messing with their genes after that not only creates the possibility/opportunity to cross caste lines but also create new castes basically completely undermining the born-for-purpose nature of Tau society. As such it doesn't surprise me that it isn't something that appears the Tau have even thought about.



> As for eldar i know they're stuck up, sure i play them as my main army but if you take biel tan for example are always looking for an extra advantage in combat so they once again become powerful. Its not like they dont have the tech and im sure they could make some more graceful version then the imperium.


It's not about their arrogance, its about the way they view war and the way they view soldiers. This is about to get long and heavy but bear with me.

Firstly, the Eldar do not approach warfare in the same way humans do. A human soldier is expected to be able to preform (with his squad) almost any action conceivable of an infantryman with a relatively high degree of competence. They are equipped and trained to secure buildings, hunt tanks, dig trenches, assault enemy lines, etc. Every marine a rifleman and all that. But this is not how the Eldar operate. An Eldar 'soldier' is expected to preform only a narrow selection of actions with a very high degree of skill. If it is his job to hunt tanks, then he will be the best tank hunter on the battlefield but he'll be useless in assaulting enemy lines. That's someone elses job. A human army is the sum of its parts but an Eldar army is much more because each part is specifically designed to work together. Secondly, the Eldar view war as dangerous to their spiritual well-being. One of the biggest parts of joining an Aspect Temple is leaving your soul behind, learning to wear a 'war-face' and cognitively disassociate yourself from what you are about to do. An Eldar at war is not an Eldar, merely part of one. And the least part of one at that. Thirdly, the Eldar view total devotion to one area of life as a failure. You are simply not supposed to walk one path forever. Exarch's are those Eldar so devoted to a Path of War that they are unable to leave, they are the finest soldiers the Eldar race can field and they are universally pitted and feared. Because they have lost what it means to be Eldar. Becoming genetically engineered for battle forces an Eldar to walk the Path of War for the rest of their life, it leaves them unable to disassociate themselves from the violence and it does not improve the entire army, merely part of it.

The Tau also do not approach warfare the same way that humans do. Human wars are fought over territory, over resources, over things that are to be taken and held. The Tau do not fight that way. You can see it clear as day in the Damocles Crusade: humanity pushed and the Tau fell back; the Tau pushed back and humanity stood and died. A human soldier is expected to fight and die at his post, humanity views last stands and sacrifices as heroic but the Tau do not. A Tau soldier is no more expected to fight against impossible odds then he is expected to commit suicide, the two actions are identical in Tau culture. Further the methodology with which the Tau fight is difficult to improve through genes. Humans have always fought in a way where being stronger, faster and tougher makes you a better soldier, and those things can be improved in a person through genetic manipulation. But to the Tau patience, hand-eye coordination and steady hands are more important and those things are far harder to change on a genetic level.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Ok obviously I'm missing something I thought tau were way ahead of the imperium. Like flying tank battlesuits and pulse rifles. Also ye I get how both armies fight but I could help but think would space marines equivalent not to do the dire avenger job for example. But good point about ethereals not liking it


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Tau really aren't ahead of the Imperium in basically every tech field bar plasma weapons. The Imperium builds bigger, faster, stronger and more reliable tech than the Tau almost across the board.
> 
> I think genetic engineering would go against the Tau's caste system. Each caste is bred for a specific role, everyone in Tau society is born with a per-determined role to play in it. Messing with their genes after that not only creates the possibility/opportunity to cross caste lines but also create new castes basically completely undermining the born-for-purpose nature of Tau society. As such it doesn't surprise me that it isn't something that appears the Tau have even thought about.


The Imp does build bigger and stronger but the tau vehicles and ships are faster and far more reliable. Tau trooper armour is far ahead to standard IG, or should I say Militaryman since the name change. The tau fire warrior armor has a full communication gear, a grunt can communicate with ships while IG require a com.man and a heavy vox caster. The ig armor is weaker than fire warrior armor. The tau armor has inbuilt hostile enviro gear, and airtight. Fire warrior helms also has zoom functions. And then there is the tau's stealth gear. In shadowsun a trooper lost a limb and was told the earth caste would regrow him a new one. [Fire warrior, Fire Caste, Shadowsun, Tau Empire ed 6,4 Tau ed3]

No where has there ever been anything to say the tau are against genetic engineering, that being said I doubt they would make a Earth caste builder into a killing machine and vice versa.



> Ok obviously I'm missing something I thought tau were way ahead of the imperium.


Some areas yes others no.
T


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The Irish Commissar said:


> Also ye I get how both armies fight but I could help but think would space marines equivalent not to do the dire avenger job for example.


Dire Avengers are generally a fairly small part of a much larger force. Is it worth damning those eldar to walk the Path of War for the rest of their lives just to improve part of the army? 



locustgate said:


> The Imp does build bigger and stronger but the tau vehicles and ships are faster and far more reliable.


I'm not totally sure what scale you're talking about so I'll just clarify what I meant.

Imperial Space Ships are faster than anything the Tau can build because they are capable of fully accessing the warp.

Reliable isn't really the word I meant I just couldn't think of a concise way to get across the fact that Leman Russ' can run on grass clippings and las-packs can recharge through sunlight. 



> Tau trooper armour is far ahead to standard IG, or should I say Militaryman since the name change. The tau fire warrior armor has a full communication gear, a grunt can communicate with ships while IG require a com.man and a heavy vox caster. The ig armor is weaker than fire warrior armor. The tau armor has inbuilt hostile enviro gear, and airtight. Fire warrior helms also has zoom functions.


Tau armour is superior to flak armour (in terms of protection from most things) but is on par with Carapace armour (which the Imperium probably makes more of than the Tau make armour period), below power armour (which the Imperium might actually make as much of as the Tau) and waay below Terminator armour. IG have all the communication gear they need in their helmets, the com-man is as much about logistics and authorization as it is about technology. Hostile enviro gear; like winter coats and gas-masks, which come standard with certain deployments. Power armour is self-powered and void-proof, Terminator armour can withstand nuclear fusion at point blank range. But a zoom function! They decided to build binoculars into their helmets, that's game over man. Never mind zoom, infra-red, night-vision and heartbeat monitors are standard in power armour helmets. Or the fact that a pair of binoculars takes up less space than a Tau's helmet. 



> In shadowsun a trooper lost a limb and was told the earth caste would regrow him a new one.


The Imperium can do that too, hell they can grow people in tanks and keep them from aging. They don't bother for most soldiers because in the time it takes to grow that soldier a new arm, and ship it to the front, he could've been outfitted with a bionic (which has several improvements over flesh) and redeployed to the front-lines already.



> that being said I doubt they would make a Earth caste builder into a killing machine and vice versa.


It's not that they would, I agree that's unlikely, it's that they could. If the Tau develop genetic manipulation then it forces them to acknowledge the fact that it is now possible, albeit unlikely, for someone born in the Earth caste to become Fire caste or Air caste or, god forbid, an Ethereal. Further, Marines are not born to be Marines, they prove themselves. They are a meritocracy, the antithesis of a caste system. Every Fire Warrior was *born* to be a Fire Warrior, how come only some were *made *into Fire Marines?


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Well let's say the tau were to build a MEQ. They would more then likey be ethereal bodyguards then front line soldiers. Think of it as the ethereals decided to make a new type of warrior to protect them, which was born to be their bodyguards. Would not make sense. Because of what I have seen of ethereal bodyguards they're not much. ( thinking of the fire warrior game here)


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Imperial Space Ships are faster than anything the Tau can build because they are capable of fully accessing the warp.
> 
> Reliable isn't really the word I meant I just couldn't think of a concise way to get across the fact that Leman Russ' can run on grass clippings and las-packs can recharge through sunlight.
> 
> ...


I was talking about Impulse not warp.

Call it Alternative fuels, that being said I have no clue what a tau vehicle runs on.

I was talking in comparison to Flak. Carapace is in no way standard issue armor. 100% of Fire warriors are equiped with FW armor while 1.x10^-X% of Standard Guardsmen are equipped with carapace armor. Why did you bring up SM armor, I never even compared it to FW's. I said that the IG haz gear WASN'T in built.

Probably what they already do to VIP Caste members turn their descendents into enhanced Caste members. If a tau's parent and his/hers grandparents are well renowned they are given special privileges, i.e. retiring at and early age, mating out of caste (no ramification on the children). I thought I said that they wouldn't engineer someone out of caste.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

To circle back why there aren't Space Marine equivalents in the armies (notably Tau) is that the Emperor (probably) received a big helping hand from Chaos to get things to work.

Some cultures are too wary (like the Eldar), incapable (like the Tyranids and possibly the Tau), or just can't be damned to bother (like the Orks).

The creation of the Primarchs--of which the Space Marines are based upon--is not something to be taken lightly. It requires more than the simple mastery of science. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also I find the comparison between Imperial Guard armor and firewarrior armor unfair. It's comparing apples to oranges.

The Tau value each individual warrior. And rightly so, since there are (relatively) so few of them. 

The Imperium has men to spend whereas materiel is more scarce. Of course they'll spend their abundant resource first.

It only makes sense.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Each faction or race, generally speaking, does have a Space Marine equivalent in the form of various elite soldiers that fulfil a broadly similar role to the Adeptus Astartes. However, one of the key points is that pretty much every playable 40k race has a different philosophy of warfare compared to the Imperium which alters the specific need for such soldiers. For example the Eldar style (both Craftworld and Dark) of warfare is largely based on speed and, in the Craftworlder's case, Aspect Warriors (who follow the very specific/specialised teachings of the Aspect/Phoenix Lords). A Space Marine-style warrior would be incompatible with that, and in desperate circumstances they can utilise wraith warriors anyway. 

If you just mean genetically enhanced soldiers then most factions probably employ them to varying extents. 

And in regards to the Tau/Imperial technology, it is established that the Imperium maintains more advanced technology but it is certainly not general-issue/universal.



hailene said:


> To circle back why there aren't Space Marine equivalents in the armies (notably Tau) is that the Emperor (probably) received a big helping hand from Chaos to get things to work.
> 
> Some cultures are too wary (like the Eldar), incapable (like the Tyranids and possibly the Tau), or just can't be damned to bother (like the Orks).
> 
> The creation of the Primarchs--of which the Space Marines are based upon--is not something to be taken lightly. It requires more than the simple mastery of science.


Another good point if that is what the OP is referring to. Even the predecessors of the Space Marines, the Thunder Warriors, who were created by the genius of the Emperor and the greatest human geneticists and scientists (without the aid of the warp as far as we know) were unstable (and useless in the long-term). Given that the Primarchs were created with the explicit aid of the Chaos Gods (apparently _Vengeful Spirit_ as good as confirms this) and that the Space Marines were created based on the template of the Primarchs, it stands to reason that they truly are unique and could not be replicated by other factions. And if the Emperor and greatest human scientists couldn't create a stable Space Marine-style warrior without the help of the Chaos Gods then I don't give other factions much of a chance.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

They're very valid points alright. let say for example other armies could make the marines equivalents how would they act and what would they be armed with.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The Irish Commissar said:


> They're very valid points alright. let say for example other armies could make the marines equivalents how would they act and what would they be armed with.


This is an entirely theoretical area.

Tau: I could imagine them as a sort of uber assassins (stealth power armor) or similar to a high tech (sm with plasma weapons everywhere)
Eldar: Engeered elves with wraithbone power armor aided by a (occupied) soul stone. High Honor Guard
Dark: Similar to above but with jet bikes/packs and bitches. Moral Destroyers
Orks: a Bunch of looted power armor strapped to a normal ork with lots and lots and lots of DAKKA!!!!!!1111!!!!1112!! (I think I'm short a few 1s and !s) Mobile gun bases.
Nids: Shrug
Chaos: Got em
Demons: see above.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

I think tau would use them as either bodyguards for ethreals or as sergents or elites with something like double pulse rifles or large plasma rifles. Eldar I can imagine they get the largest eldar and put them in big large aspect warrior armour with mini jets that allow them to close on their enemy and then engage them with giant axes.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The main reason is that the Space marines are unreliable. I mean would I want a tool that failed me one out of one hundreds times? Think about your car, if it only started 99% of the time it would be a cruddy thing to drive around in. It's the same with the Space Marines, and I'm being very generous with the 1%-thingy (due to the Horus Heresy and everything since). The aliens probably regard the Space Marines as what not to do, so for extremely logical reasons won't do that. The only things I can come up with that has a motive for that is the Dark Eldar actually, but then again they are too racist to do just that.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> The main reason is that the Space marines are unreliable. I mean would I want a tool that failed me one out of one hundreds times? Think about your car, if it only started 99% of the time it would be a cruddy thing to drive around in. It's the same with the Space Marines, and I'm being very generous with the 1%-thingy (due to the Horus Heresy and everything since).


0_o Mind expanding on the what you mean by unreliable, I'm assuming failure rate.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Unreliable, failure-rate. That's much the same. I mean the Space Marines must for outsiders look like a pretty stupid thing to do as many chapters go renegade or traitor all the time. Just check numerous fluff-thingies.

I wouldn't like to have warriors that betrayed me quite often. And no sane person should want that. And that's the Space Marines from the alien perspective.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> I wouldn't like to have warriors that betrayed me quite often. And no sane person should want that. And that's the Space Marines from the alien perspective.


Your sense of perspective is a bit off.

Many Chapters are around for thousands upon thousands of years. The fall of a relative handful is a pretty good record.

You also have to keep in mind what sort of threats and obstacles the Astartes face. Most human armies would have given up or turned immediately by some of the threats they face. It takes more than simple hardship to turn a Space Marine, much less an entire Chapter.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> Your sense of perspective is a bit off.
> 
> Many Chapters are around for thousands upon thousands of years. The fall of a relative handful is a pretty good record.
> 
> You also have to keep in mind what sort of threats and obstacles the Astartes face. Most human armies would have given up or turned immediately by some of the threats they face. It takes more than simple hardship to turn a Space Marine, much less an entire Chapter.


It's still a failing weapon. Only the Dark Eldar would have interest in a weapon that didn't misfire 150.000 times then exploding. And that's what the aliens see. Plus the HH must be known to more or lesser of degrees to the aliens.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Unreliable, failure-rate. That's much the same. I mean the Space Marines must for outsiders look like a pretty stupid thing to do as many chapters go renegade or traitor all the time. Just check numerous fluff-thingies.
> 
> I wouldn't like to have warriors that betrayed me quite often. And no sane person should want that. And that's the Space Marines from the alien perspective.


Er....I beg to differ an entire chapter going rouge is very rare, i.e. for every 1k chapter there is 1 chapter that goes rouge. Their success rate is particularly high, but because of Rowboat Gillman (Grandpapasmurf) they are crap at large scale wars. Again because of Rowboat Gillman it requires 5 chapters to win a single planet, he downgraded them from Elite Soldiers to hit teams.



Beaviz81 said:


> It's still a failing weapon. Only the Dark Eldar would have interest in a weapon that didn't misfire 150.000 times then exploding. And that's what the aliens see. Plus the HH must be known to more or lesser of degrees to the aliens.



I really doubt that, in certain exceptions ie Eldar, Most of the xenos that came into contact with the GC Imperium are dead or closer to extinction than the eldar. And the HH is kept a deep deep deep secret requiring the authority of high inquisitors to even know SMs participated in it. Most Imperium citizens belive that a man named Horus tried to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium but they don't know that SMs sided with him or anything close to the truth [Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Arbites].


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I would still not want a weapon that failed once in a while and you are deflating the numbers locustgate.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I was going to go on that other races are more than happy to utlize less than perfectly reliable technology (notably the Riptide), but, you know what, that's the wrong way to go.

The "failings" (as you call them) of the Space Marines are not inherrent to the idea of a super soldier. The fault lies in what they were and still, in a sense, are: human.

Saying that the races wouldn't want to create some sort of super soldier because Space Marines don't always work out, is like saying other races wouldn't want to use projectile weapons because Imperial assault cannons overheat and jam.

It makes no sense, once you think about it.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> I would still not want a weapon that failed once in a while and you are deflating the numbers locustgate.


Then use a sword, every projectile weapon misfires.

EDIT: Hell even swords can 'misfire', break/dull. Maybe but not by that not much.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

If half of the things I created turned against me and there are bound to be leaks to the x-rays (and you said yourself they are only human down below). Trust me a guy that want to screw the IOM over would most certainly tell and I haven't noted thing go catastrophically wrong for neither the Eldar nor the Tau since the IOM came along. Of course the Eldar is a dying race just like the Tau are merely fledging and neither likely likes nor needs the unstable humans to prosper.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

The Irish Commissar said:


> For example tau have battle suits but why not try make something as powerful and tough armor and give them standardised better fire warrior armour.


It is more than the armor that protects him that keeps an Astarte alive. it is his physical and psychological conditioning, his training, the weapon he uses, and the resources at his disposal that all come together to create one of the most effective killingmmachine the 40k galaxy has ever known. The Tau cannot simply recreate that, and unfortuantly the Earth caste has not changed their way of "armoring" their units for quite some time. 

As for other races they have all created their own verzion of *"Ultimate Soldier" breeds*. 

The Orks naturally develop Nobz, Mega Nobz, Bionik Warrioz, and Warbosses which turn into the Astart equivilant based on just sheer muscle mass and brutality. Unfortuantly they do not reproduce often so they poose little threat.

Nids have Tyrant Guards, and Warriors which breed like crazy and have the strength of 2 Astartes in one. It remains to be deteremined if they pose a threat to Astartes, but it has been well documented they are a challenged to kill.

Guard keeps their assasins and Ogryns in their back pockets while various type of Skitarii and Elites prowle the Inquisitorial ranks. Few of these can even compare to an Astarte, yet their arsenal is certainly none to gawk at. 

Chaos....well their alreayd Astarte  the Daemonics dont' really need to contend, they can just think up their new superhumans; it's the reason the Astarte exiast quite honestly. 

Necrons have the Lych Gaurds and Traich Preatorians. Especially with the Lych Guard their CQC abilities are second to none. I would love to see a 10 vs 10 with Astartes and these bad boys just to see whow ould win out. 

Eldar don't really have any heavy hitters like Astarte but often employee Autarchs and Warlocks to combat these Troop choices. Warlocks especially have good CQC abiltiies though I'm unsure, both in TT and Lore, if they have the psychical ability and armor to hang in their with Astarte.

Grotesques are the only real unit with enough firepower and armor to go toe-to-toe with Astarte. The style of warfare favored by the Dark Eldar do not allow for heavy units in thick power armor. 

In conclusion each race has it's own version of heavy troops, but only Humanity can lay claim to Legions of "Super Soldiers," in terms of size. Sadly though as GW evolves the game Astartes are becoming more basic line troops, and power armor is sadly finding it's weakness as new strategies and weapons become avalaiable.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

There is a severe difference between the TT and book-fluff. In the book-fluff the Space Marines are nigh-invulnerable warriors. On the TT they are just the run of the mill troopers that even Grots can defeat if lucky. Must add I would have liked seeing a gang of Grots take out a Space Marine-biker in the book-fluff like they did in a battle-report I read in the 90's in a WD.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The Emperor of Mankind is immensely old. He is, in my opinion, the oldest living creature in the known galaxy. This of coarse has some exceptions such as the Necrons, C'tan, ect. Throughout the coarse of his life he did not acquire the knowledge of the creation of the Adeptus Astartes through his own personal experiences or knowledge. In the end he was required to strike a bargain with the Chaos Gods in order to get the genetic material for the creation of the Primarchs.

To my understanding the Emperor did not start the Space Marine program until after the primarchs were scattered (as seen in Deliverance Lost, via Corax's studies). The Emperor only understood how to create the Space Marines because he had the superior and nigh-perfect genetic blueprint of the Primarchs to down-scale to a point where he could mass-produce them. This of coarse was only really possible because of the Emperor's extreme intelligence. Even then the Emperor had to refine his understanding of the process - hence the Thunder Warriors. From what I've read in The Outcast Dead he didn't exactly get it right. He made it doable enough to conquer Terra, and given the vast span of the galaxy -- Terra wasn't exactly a tough conquest by comparison to some of the worlds, kingdoms, xenos, or empires the Imperium later encountered. We are also given hints that the Emperor was only able to create the Astartes by learning from his mistakes with the Thunder Warriors.

My point is that to create the Astartes was no simple process. It took the will of the Chaos Gods combined with the intelligence of the greatest psyker in known existence to even make the process possible. 

I do not think other races will ever be capable of such a feat. The Tau certainly won't be doing anything like it. They are far more technologically driven rather than biologically. On the other extreme the Tyranids have little need as their evolutionary process will ultimately breed warriors stronger than Astartes given enough genetic material and time. As for the Eldar, either side, they do not view Humanity with true respect. It is likely to them that they believe had the Eldar Empire never fallen than even the Emperor's Space Marine Legions would not have been able to conquer them. Its their arrogance that will prevent them from creating Eldar Astartes. Because in the mind of that particular xenos, they are already far superior to any Astartes or mon-keigh.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor isn't the oldest living creature. Asdrubael Vect of the Dark Eldar/Necrons (if you count them as living) and I'm sure many other older aliens that exist are older.

In addition, the Emperor isn't the only perpetual so perhaps there are some that have lived longer.

The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the bargain with the Pantheon. Humanity was tinkering with genetics long before the Emperor revealed himself and the first Astartes was made.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

As for age, I was never certain. Also I'm aware the Emperor isn't the only Perpetual, but he is clearly the most gifted of their kind. 

I've also never read anywhere that the Space Marines were developed via the Dark Age of Technology in any degree (be it knowledge obtained during that time or anything to do with that time) with the exception of perhaps some technologies (machines and such) that would have been required to produce them. Where did you read that?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

> The Emperor isn't the oldest living creature. Asdrubael Vect of the Dark Eldar/Necrons (if you count them as living) and I'm sure many other older aliens that exist are older.
> 
> In addition, the Emperor isn't the only perpetual so perhaps there are some that have lived longer.
> 
> The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the bargain with the Pantheon. Humanity was tinkering with genetics long before the Emperor revealed himself and the first Astartes was made.


It's unknown how old Vect is, he is at least 10k years old while the last I heard the emp is at least 48k years old. Also according to vect he was 'young' during slaanesh's birth. So I doubt he is older than E and I wouldn't count the crons as they aren't flesh and blood, if you include them then you have to include the Chaos gods and c'tan.




BlackGuard said:


> As for age, I was never certain. Also I'm aware the Emperor isn't the only Perpetual, but he is clearly the most gifted of their kind.
> 
> I've also never read anywhere that the Space Marines were developed via the Dark Age of Technology in any degree (be it knowledge obtained during that time or anything to do with that time) with the exception of perhaps some technologies (machines and such) that would have been required to produce them. Where did you read that?


Their armor and weapons were, well the proto-thunder warrior version. Humanity did start really getting into advance gene-engineering during the dark age. So true that much of the stuff to make astartes arose during then. One HH book had a world with a slower and bulkier version of power armor ,compared to Mk2(?) power armor, and said armor was an stc version. Also didn't Caliban have a bolt pistol like weapon, non-explosive version,


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

locustgate said:


> One HH book had a world with a slower and bulkier version of power armor ,compared to Mk2(?) power armor, and said armor was an stc version. Also didn't Caliban have a bolt pistol like weapon, non-explosive version,


It was, a verzion of the Mk. II Bolt pistol using black-powder weaponry. Whether or not this was from an S.T.C no one really knows. however the novel, god I for get the name, that follows the rise of El'Johnson the Lion shows that Caliban had an unsuaully high level of technology for a planet that was still living in Medieval times. 

There was also a short story of a SM Chapter encounter and destroying a planet who's human inhabitants used armor similar to the early Crusader Pattern power armor. S.T.C still effect the 40k race, and honestly I feel they are a touch of Star Trek brought to light in the grim darkness of the 40k future.



Beaviz81 said:


> nigh-invulnerable warriors.


I must say your wrong my freind. They are truely remarkable warriors capable of feats that are normally inhuman and stunning even for Astartes standards. However in Fluff, and recently in alarming numbers, I find more and more writers that tell of the mortality of the Astartes. I never read an SM novel where casualties didn't number in the dozens, if not hundreds of Astartes. True they killed twice/thrice that number of it still came down to the simple effect of "Space Marines can Die, including the more Elite Veterans."

Table-Top is a game, and like all games you find the strengths and weaknesses of an army and roll with it. Fluff, like Star Wars/Star Trek before it, is quite debatable.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the *bargain with the Pantheon*.


That last part may or may not be true, and I'm more inclined to the latter.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> That last part may or may not be true, and I'm more inclined to the latter.


It could be argued that the bargain was necessary to create the primarchs, and the astartes were the best the Emperor could make of those templates on his own?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> It could be argued that the bargain was necessary to create the primarchs, and the astartes were the best the Emperor could make of those templates on his own?


Hmmm, I just don't buy into it on any level. I believe that's the very intention of it. You the reader, like the characters, have to make your own mind up on the truth of the claim.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> I must say your wrong my freind. They are truely remarkable warriors capable of feats that are normally inhuman and stunning even for Astartes standards. However in Fluff, and recently in alarming numbers, I find more and more writers that tell of the mortality of the Astartes. I never read an SM novel where casualties didn't number in the dozens, if not hundreds of Astartes. True they killed twice/thrice that number of it still came down to the simple effect of "Space Marines can Die, including the more Elite Veterans."
> 
> Table-Top is a game, and like all games you find the strengths and weaknesses of an army and roll with it. Fluff, like Star Wars/Star Trek before it, is quite debatable.


Dan Abnett's chapter took none or very few causalities (just debunking your myth for no good reason). And nigh-invulnerability is just that. They can be worn down and killed in spectacular fashion.

Then I shift to the next few responses and I disagree Serpion. I don't think the Asartes are anything but a failed experiment because they can be corrupted and half of them at one point turned traitor. Thats a huge failure. But in this game-universe they are the best humanity has to offer and the IOM would sure collapse directly without them.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Then I shift to the next few responses and I disagree Serpion. I don't think the Asartes are anything but a failed experiment because they can be corrupted and half of them at one point turned traitor. Thats a huge failure. But in this game-universe they are the best humanity has to offer and the IOM would sure collapse directly without them.


You do realize that the SMs 'reproduce'/die there isn't a static number, IF you look right during the HH then yes about 1/2 did turn but as it currently x<.5. The average SMs now is far more brainwashed (shampooed and conditioned) so that the chances of them falling is far smaller.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> It could be argued that the bargain was necessary to create the primarchs, and the astartes were the best the Emperor could make of those templates on his own?


The primarchs were designed to fight the warp. The astartes aside from psykers lack that ability.

For me I always viewed it that the emperor was working on a timetable, he knew that slaanesh would be born soon and needed an army by that time so he had to take shortcuts.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure the Emperor was twiddling his thumbs anticipating and expecting nothing prior to Slaanesh's birth. It was only when the warp storms were gone, that he sprung into action and developed the plan for the Great Crusade. Prior to this he was unifying Terra.

Also where is it stated that the Primarchs were meant to fight the warp and not lead humanity's armies to war?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> . I don't think the Asartes are anything but a failed experiment because they can be corrupted and half of them at one point turned traitor.


What failed was the Primarchs. They turned and brought half of the Imperium with them. Both human and Astartes.

And still, I fail how to see even if this would discount the idea Space Marines. It was nothing inherent to the Space Marine concept that failed them. Yes, it so happened that Space Marines turned, but it was not _because_ they were Space Marines. Do you catch the difference?

Correlation does not imply causation.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It was only when the warp storms were gone, that he sprung into action and developed the plan for the Great Crusade.


The Emperor was unifying Terra hundreds of years before Slaanesh's birth (per _Legion_). He created and produced at least a couple tens of thousands of Space Marines in anticipation for the Great Crusade.

I always thought that the Emperor knew precisely the timing of Slaanesh's birth and took advantage of it. It makes sense, since launching the Great Crusade before Old Night would have meant running into the Eldar at near the height of the power and trying too late afterwards meant running into consolidated empires.

Striking out while the galaxy was still reeling from thousands of years of isolation meant the galaxy was, largely, for the taking. And it was.

This was probably one of the biggest reasons for the rapid success of the Great Crusade.

I don't think it was the Emperor seizing an opportunity that floated by. The Great Crusade was something thousands of years in the making.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm, I just don't buy into it on any level. I believe that's the very intention of it. You the reader, like the characters, have to make your own mind up on the truth of the claim.


_Vengeful Spirit_ spoilers:


I haven't read it myself yet but apparently the book pretty much confirms that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods. 




Reaper45 said:


> The primarchs were designed to fight the warp.


Were they?


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

They do. Fire Warriors have been bred like dogs by the ethereals for six thousand years to make them the best warriors they can. Eldar aspect warriors train for centuries to hone their skills to the finest of edges. 

What you are really asking is why aren't the other races who are supposed to be more technically advanced than humans better at genetic engineering? The answer is  DON'T FUCK WITH HUMANS!!!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@hailene: I don't think the Emperor knew what was the cause behind the sudden disappearance of the warp storms. At least not right when it happened. 

If we were to assume he did then why were the Eldar, masters of the warp, utterly surprised in regards to Slaanesh's birth?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _Vengeful Spirit_ spoilers:
> 
> 
> I haven't read it myself yet but apparently the book pretty much confirms that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods.
> ...


Scars spoilers.


in scars The khan and his body guard are on prosporo after it was burnt, they face off against ethereal things the khan is the only one who can hurt them without psyker help.


There's a few other examples but I don't recall them.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> What failed was the Primarchs. They turned and brought half of the Imperium with them. Both human and Astartes.
> 
> And still, I fail how to see even if this would discount the idea Space Marines. It was nothing inherent to the Space Marine concept that failed them. Yes, it so happened that Space Marines turned, but it was not because they were Space Marines. Do you catch the difference?
> 
> Correlation does not imply causation.


Ehm huh? Sorry you lost me.

It was a Space Marine that converted Lorgar to the Darkpath if memory serves. That makes the Space Marine the bad part.



locustgate said:


> You do realize that the SMs 'reproduce'/die there isn't a static number, IF you look right during the HH then yes about 1/2 did turn but as it currently x<.5. The average SMs now is far more brainwashed (shampooed and conditioned) so that the chances of them falling is far smaller.


Maybe one in one hundred,but that still unreliable. Think of this. Would you like if your car failed 1 in 100 times? or if you had a rifle. It blew up one in one hundred tries.

I know my answer. It's hell no.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm huh? Sorry you lost me.
> 
> It was a Space Marine that converted Lorgar to the Darkpath if memory serves. That makes the Space Marine the bad part.
> 
> ...


Considering the amount of astartes that's on the side of acceptable.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> You do realize that the SMs 'reproduce'/die there isn't a static number, IF you look right during the HH then yes about 1/2 did turn but as it currently x<.5. The average SMs now is far more brainwashed (shampooed and conditioned) so that the chances of them falling is far smaller.





Reaper45 said:


> Considering the amount of astartes that's on the side of acceptable.


Nah. I still stand by that they are a failed experiment. But I will press they are better than just regular humans and less corruptible than them.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Better a rifle that fails 1 in every 100 times than no rifle at all!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> It was a Space Marine that converted Lorgar to the Darkpath if memory serves. That makes the Space Marine the bad part.


Okay, even playing with the idea that the "Space Marine" (ie Erebus and Kor Phaeron) that failed, that does not mean Space Marines are the bad part.

Look at this, if a Caucasian person robbed a store, does that make Caucasian people robbers or bad people? No, that means that one particular robber so happened to be Caucasian. There is nothing inherent to being Caucasian and a robber. Causation does not imply not imply correlation. Just because two things happen at the same time, does not one thing led to another or that a single decision or choice caused both. That _may_ be the case (you'd have to have further proof), but it doesn't not necessarily mean it is so.

Look at Kor Phaeron. He is nothing more than a suped-up human. Does this imply that chemically and bionically enhanced humans are prone to Chaos worship? No! He just so happened to be a chemically and bionically enhanced human that led to Chaos worship.

*I will break it down into a single question if you still do not catch what I am trying to say.* Can you point out any where that demonstrates the fact that Space Marines will lead to Chaos worship or otherwise "fail".

And, no, don't point towards the Horus Heresy. This goes back to my Caucasian robber analogy. I couldn't use that as proof since it in no way suggests that Caucasians are predisposed to robbing people. It merely describes the end result and not the actual cause. 

You saying that other races would not want to emulate the biologically enhanced warrior (ie Space Marines) because half the Legions turned on the Emperor would be like telling the Tau to dump the Earth Caste because some part of the Mechanicus turned in Horus's favor as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Scars spoilers.
> 
> 
> in scars The khan and his body guard are on prosporo after it was burnt, they face off against ethereal things the khan is the only one who can hurt them without psyker help.
> ...


Indeed. But it is still quite a leap to suggest the Primarchs were specifically designed to fight the warp...

Just because they were capable of effectively fighting warp-creatures doesn't mean they designed to do so.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed. But it is still quite a leap to suggest the Primarchs were specifically designed to fight the warp...
> 
> Just because they were capable of effectively fighting warp-creatures doesn't mean they designed to do so.


Why else would they exist? Why would the emperor create 20 beings whose presence overwhelm people just to be generals for his armies? he could have created weaponry and armor on the level of the tau and accomplished the same goals.
The emperors main goal was to starve chaos everything he did was towards that goal.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> he could have created weaponry and armor on the level of the tau and accomplished the same goals.


Even the Emperor couldn't be everywhere at once.

He needed commanders more capable than a regular human could ever be. 

Though, I will admit, the Primarchs were probably devised to fight Chaos as well. I mean, the Emperor, before he even made the Primarchs, knew about Chaos. Hell, he cut a deal to _make_ the Primarchs! And he cheated Chaos to boot--you don't have to be the Emperor to know the Chaos gods would not be amused.

I assume, much like the Space Marine, the Primarchs were designed the ground up to fight anything and everything--human, xenos, or Warp-based. They were off to conquer the Milky Way, and the Warp is literally surrounding everything. Be a little short-sighted NOT to be ready to fight Chaos.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I doubt the Chaos gods had any intention of honoring the deal the Emperor allegedly broke. Its not in their nature.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Apparently they were naive of the ways of the material world and its inhabitants. That's either stated in the First Heretic or it's one of the theories proposed by CoTE, not sure.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> Okay, even playing with the idea that the "Space Marine" (ie Erebus and Kor Phaeron) that failed, that does not mean Space Marines are the bad part.
> 
> Look at this, if a Caucasian person robbed a store, does that make Caucasian people robbers or bad people? No, that means that one particular robber so happened to be Caucasian. There is nothing inherent to being Caucasian and a robber. Causation does not imply not imply correlation. Just because two things happen at the same time, does not one thing led to another or that a single decision or choice caused both. That _may_ be the case (you'd have to have further proof), but it doesn't not necessarily mean it is so.
> 
> ...


Do you have any good reason to drag race into this?

And the Space Marines were designed to be a superweapon. Instead one of them kicked off the Horus Heresy by corrupting one of the sons of the Emperor. Though I ain't that impressed by the Primarch-project as well since it ultimately failed and half of them ended up betraying the Emperor.

And I know very little (deliberately) about the Tau so telling me anything about them falls under information I neither want to know nor need.

Just run the numbers-game. The Space Marines are the best humanity has to offer but in the end they are just a failed experiment, but the best humanity has to offer in this dark setting.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Maybe one in one hundred,but that still unreliable. Think of this. Would you like if your car failed 1 in 100 times? or if you had a rifle. It blew up one in one hundred tries.
> .


Didn't the Vietnam era m16 fail 1/10, the way my uncle....dad's cousin talks about them you could swear it did?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Didn't the Vietnam era m16 fail 1/10, the way my uncle....dad's cousin talks about them you could swear it did?


That was due to the soldiers being told they didn't need to maintain their guns. At least thats what Discovery has told me.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> That was due to the soldiers being told they didn't need to maintain their guns. At least thats what Discovery has told me.


Still it failed far more than SMs so it should of been gotten rid of still 1/100 sms far to close perhaps 1/1000



Beaviz81 said:


> Do you have any good reason to drag race into this?
> 
> And the Space Marines were designed to be a superweapon. Instead one of them kicked off the Horus Heresy by corrupting one of the sons of the Emperor. Though I ain't that impressed by the Primarch-project as well since it ultimately failed and half of them ended up betraying the Emperor.
> 
> ...


Why would you be deliberately ignorant of something that the most retarded thing I have heard today.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Why would you be deliberately ignorant of something that the most retarded thing I have heard today.


Huh? Please make sense.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Do you have any good reason to drag race into this?


Yes. It's called an analogy.

You either have the mental capacity of a toddler or are trolling me. Either way I'm wasting my time. I'm done with you.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Well if you look at it this way. Most space marines chapters have 1000 men in their chapter. If one in every 100 marines turns traitor thats only ten men. Not exactly going to take on the whole chapter. Also im pretty sure chapters have people looking out for heresy (eg. Chapilans).


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Huh? Please make sense.





Beaviz81 said:


> And I know very little (deliberately) about the Tau so telling me anything about them falls under information I neither want to know nor need.


Why would you be deliberately ignorant of something. That is the most retarded thing I have heard today.

Hvorfor ville du være bevisst uvitende om noe som er det mest tilbakestående ting jeg har hørt i dag.


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