# Games Workshop reseller changes



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Some interesting news cropped up on some of the other sites recently.



Bigbossogryn said:


> Today I was talking with a close friend who is an independent stockist of GW goods and something very interesting was raised during our conversation. Apparently, GW have confirmed an initiative will go active sometime in June that has been two years in the making (mainly due to legal issues). This initiative involves the use of a tier system to rate indies and then adjust how much discount their trade account is liable for.
> 
> Sounds interesting so far, right?
> 
> ...


 Our very own rich1231 also added later on:



rich1231 said:


> Its not a rumour.
> 
> foolish to comment fully until we have the new trade terms documents and I have had them scrutinized.
> 
> I still fully believe this will lead to consolidation of online retailers. And that B&M retail is non viable in most areas of the UK and europe in this climate.


 rich1231 being the owner of a large online webstore, so obviously in a good position to comment on this particular topic. To summarise the content of some of the rumours and threads (full largely of the usual drumbeating posts that go with these topics), apparently GW intends to offer a tiered discount system to resellers. The idea being that GW rewards those with a brick and mortar presence similar to GW hobby shops and 'penalises' (or 'unrewards' if you like) those resellers who are less like a GW hobby shop, i.e. online only resellers and small LGS's that stock limited GW product.

From my point of view this is comes across as a kick in the nuts for those of us that regard GW prices as too high and only remain in the hobby due to 20%+ discount internet sites. It could be that I have misjudged GWs aim, the proof in the trade documents remains to be seen, but it appears that GW are making an attempt to further control GW product resellers. 'If you have a 'hobby centre' and sell lots of GW product you get a nice discount, otherwise kindly get fucked'.

It would seem that this will really hurt the small independent shops and online stores that aren't just a facsimile of a GW hobby shop or don't have the required turnover to access a good tier. I am sure there will still be some discount shops, but a reduced market and more control over discounts and resellers by GW may (pessimistically perhaps) result in less discount for us, the playing and paying public.

If this proves to be the case, for me I suspect it will mean GWs bizarre approach to marketing in a recession will finally help me kick the habit, I mean hobby...


----------



## BrotherYorei (May 9, 2009)

seems to me GW are trying to make it so local game stores have as much chance for profit as an online store. online stores dont have as high an overhead as local game stores. online store s that give huge discounts take away business from local stores.
anline stores are great for people who dont have access to a local shop, but they are getting alot of the business the local shops NEED to stat open.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Weren't Games Workshop in the shit about 3 years back when they raised prices too high and too fast? Oh whoops. What actually happens when Games Workshop lower prices, I wonder? Which is really what this all boils down to.

Oooh look, price increase in our goods! We need to make money to continue making the product! Oh what's that? They're going elsewhere? Bugger that, let's brainstorm and think of new ways to bring them back to fold! We have the sensible, clever, option of going and reducing our prices to a more sustainable level, which will net more in the long run rather than per sale, OR we can be twats and stop others selling it? I'll take B, please, Chris.

I'm sorry, that's the wrong answer, Games Workshop, you leave here with only the £1000 that you had earlier. There you have it Ladies and Gentlemen, Games Workshop from Nottingham, got too greedy, instead of taking the lifeline, and walks away nearly empty handed.

I wonder how many GW's will keep their storage sheds more tightly locked in future. I mean, leaving boxes on the side in open view of everyone EXCEPT the staff who sit at the desk? Bright Idea, yeah?


----------



## rdlb (Nov 30, 2008)

Whether GW is trying to protect their in store sales or not I think this is great. We need the indi local stores to run the games clubs and too many short sighted people are buying online at a discount and then all of a sudden their game club is gone. 

I play in a conference room every Monday night with about 40 people that the local shop rents out. All week they have two tables in store to play on. 

The only things I buy online are the random figures that they can't order. I want them to stay open and profitable so that there are plenty of great Mondays. With everyone hanging out and playing, There are fantasy leagues, border patrol tournaments, all kinds of stuff going on all year.

Besides, you can't hang out in an online store and talk to people. It builds a real sense of community to have a local gaming store as a hub.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It's not really a question of exclusivity of Online Stores - I only do it for bitz and pieces, which nowadays, with the amount of spare heads, torso's and arms I have lying around, is all I need to personalise, and unify my forces - with the loss of the Bitz Section from the main site - Which is where I managed to craft an entire army from, just ordering sprues - now I have to by an army for 3x the cost, and with bits I don't want. Unfortunately, I'm not going about setting up a business myself, so couldn't organise a lot to sell, while I couldn't sell half a sprue, with just the back plates of the marines and the left hands of Chaos Warriors. If they set the Bits section back up, I would be exclusively GW, supporting them, other than, as you say, getting bits or kits that are OOP/Discontinued.


----------



## TWormley (Dec 17, 2008)

it doesn't work like that for me though. my local shop is only a GW shop, they don't give me much reason to go there or buy fromthem as they aren't that helpful and I play at a local club so I don't need the tables. why should I pay more for a model from them than buy it from a site online with a nice discount? they should give me a good reason to buy from the shop rather than just remove the competition. I wont buy from the shop because they don't deserve my business, not because some online shop is 'stealing their customers'.

if I can't buy online I am not going to start buying from the local shop for more money, so in reality they just lose any money I would have spent, not give it to a bad business that can't earn it properly like everyone else. if my local shop gave me a reason to support them I might pay extra happily, but they aren't a charity, they are just another business who wants my money, if they have higher prices with no benefit then why would I give them my money?

instead I will just buy elsewhere online but proably less. so if gamesworkshop do this to try and support physical stores at the expense of internet shops then they failed. all they did is lose some of my business.


----------



## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

*Newsflash!*

..Sheriff in "only SECOND greediest bastard in Nottingham" shocker! "I'm going to need more arrows" says Robin Hood. 

:laugh:


----------



## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm confused , i don't get any of this. Does this mean that independent stockists/online stores are getting prices increased or decreased?

Also is anything happening to the local GW stores price wise. 

Explain to me in simple words as i'm a bit confused.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Independant Stockist Prices are going up, but it scales up the higher up the Tiers you go - and tiers increase the less Games Workshop like you are.

Basically, Games Workshop are selling their products to stockists more expensively, depending on your type of business.


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

This is a very good thing. As some one who plays at a local shop, online sellers take a lot of profit from the shops that we play at. Now it is sad because I buy all my DE from an online shop because I can't get it anywhere els (Other then GW direct) but if I have to hold off on buying new DE until they get reworked I am fine with that as long as we see less of the online retailers taking money from the indi shops that give us a place to play at.

And did any one here stop to think about it instead of just jumping back on the bandwagon where they can cry all they want and people will feel sorry for them? What is the fuel that feeds the GW hobby? Shops. What brings new people in to the hobby? Shops. Not online retailers, all they do is sell stuff and take money away from the Indi shops that need it to stay in the black. But none of you care to think about that because your to busy crying about how bad and greedy GW is, just because the guy above you posted that GW is some evil company doesn't make it true. try to think for your self.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Read the thread, the answer to your question was 'Yes'.


----------



## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

JokerGod said:


> This is a very good thing. As some one who plays at a local shop, online sellers take a lot of profit from the shops that we play at. Now it is sad because I buy all my DE from an online shop because I can't get it anywhere els (Other then GW direct) but if I have to hold off on buying new DE until they get reworked I am fine with that as long as we see less of the online retailers taking money from the indi shops that give us a place to play at.
> 
> And did any one here stop to think about it instead of just jumping back on the bandwagon where they can cry all they want and people will feel sorry for them? What is the fuel that feeds the GW hobby? Shops. What brings new people in to the hobby? Shops. Not online retailers, all they do is sell stuff and take money away from the Indi shops that need it to stay in the black. But none of you care to think about that because your to busy crying about how bad and greedy GW is, just because the guy above you posted that GW is some evil company doesn't make it true. try to think for your self.


joker you make a good point but this is a bad thing for guys like me that have to spen any where up to £30 to get to our local hobbie place so onlin retalers are my life line o the hobbie.

and a bit off topic we all know microsoft and vodafone are the evil companies. lol


----------



## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

A canny move from GW i reckon. Its annoying, i was just about to start shopping online what with this price rise... will prob rush order 4 battleforces now..


----------



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

This is interesting news. From what I can tell, it'll give the indie shops the cheaper rates so they'll end up selling online knowing they can outprice the regular online shops.

If I was running a bricks and mortar shop and was suddenly given a big trade discount over the current online shops I'd move into the online market, undercut them all, force them out of business and dominate the online market without dozens of living room warriors to contend with.

All in all I'd say this isn't likely to make much difference. Once the FLGS realise they can sell cheaper than the regular online shops they'll do just that.

In fact, anyone in Essex want to chip in for a FLGS/Strip Bar ?


----------



## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

I can't see that being the case. GW will have a clause in there somewhere preventing just that. 

It took a couple of years for them to draft apparantly, would have thought they have everything covered.


----------



## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm with ya Jez! I will focus on the bar...


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Just thought i should add that the tier one price that's quoted is actually more than a B&M reseller is paying currently, so this tier system rumor would mean the B&M stores would be paying more than they are now so would mean less profit.Plus were are the other two tiers?feels like these number have been plucked out of thin air by someone who knows nothing about.
Secondly i dont think GW is in financially secure enough position to start messing about with a third of its sales,Or put it another way would you jeopardize a £100k a year from an online retailer by giving a larger discount to a £20k bricks an mortar? 
Plus this goes completely against what GW spent alot of time and effort to sort out just 3 years ago when they were forced to offer the same discount to all EU countries for all indie traders.
finally if GW seriously wanted to stop 20% online discounts from indie retailers they would just stop supplying them! Its not rocket science, if they wanted rid of them they dont need to use this stealth tactic.

Anyway i have had no information regard this change so i can neither confirm or deny it but based on the maths alone it makes no sense,but hey this is GW so anythings possible


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Fortuantely the LGS I support, also sells online and ebay with a reduced rate, so this shouldn't effect him. In fact like Jez has said potentially he'll be in a stronger position as he's already selling at discount online via his store anyway.

I can see the reasoning, although it'll be interesting to see how this effects overal sales once again.


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I've had a look though GW haven't provided any information like this yet. Also like to reinforce the point that the price offered to Tier ones in that list is more than what they charge now.

For those people saying "Yeah this is great blah blah blah" The closest _GW_ to us is in Chester, that's an hour on the train for us. Local gaming store? What's one of those? ...

And before you say it; Yes, I am just thinking of myself and the gamers in our area, why should I care how awesome your game store is and how well it can attract new gamers?


----------



## Zarahemna (Aug 7, 2008)

*I haven't*

I haven't heard anything about this either. Games Workshop always seems to get criticised for everything they do, and as is the case here, often before they even do it. As a commercial enterprise I think they are doing pretty well, considering that we are in the midst of a global slowdown the company is performing pretty solidly. I think this is even more impressive when you consider that they essentially retail luxury goods.

I am not claiming that these changes are not going to be made, merely pointing out that I have heard nothing from GW about this sort of change. I am aware that there will be a price change in June but not that the T&C are going to be overhauled.

Would it not make some sense to wait until some sort of change is announced or even made before starting a discussion?


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

If they are rewarding FLGS it may well be more than just a money lead thing.

I lived in a town with no GW so I bought my first GW mini from a FLG. = Addict

Im sorry to say I have never got well with GS stores themselves but a local FLG was available and that is where I got my first taste of playing the rules properly.

Years later I dug the minis out of the loft and got back into the hobby.

Worthing had lost four FLGS by this time but a foolhardy but brave chap had opened yet another FLG and its where I reconnected with the hobby and people in the area that played.

FLGS have been hit hard by online stores, Paying some very heavy taxes and bills to have a shop is killing them, they cannot compete on price.

FLGS get you playing, talking and buying if theres not a GW locally or your not keen on them.

Ive been buying minis for about 23 years. It all started in a FLG, it wouldn't have happened online for me.
With out the influx of new younger gamers that stares bring the hobby dies.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

although i do agree that a flgs is a huge part of the hobby surely without the huge sales from online discount traders the hobby dies too. i thought 24% or so of GW sales where from independant stockists surely they would have to raise prices considerably to offset this loss as lets face it who would by from a trader when direct price is the same.


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

it makes perfect sense and i think overall will help the hobby. I know of 3 local stores that have closed down in recent years due to not being able to compete with online traders. Most people fail to recognise the costs of running a business, like renting the property, paying wages, bills etc... Internet sellers don't have anywhere near the overheads, and as they can just order each week what they need, dont even have to hold that much stock. Therefore basically all they do is re-label a package that comes in and send it, making it very easy to undercut everyone else.

There is one local store left that sells roleplay books and he struggles because of places like amazon and ebay because his stuff costs 15% more, but he can't afford to compete with them as it would mean he would basically not get paid.


----------



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

jigplums said:


> it makes perfect sense and i think overall will help the hobby. I know of 3 local stores that have closed down in recent years due to not being able to compete with online traders. Most people fail to recognise the costs of running a business, like renting the property, paying wages, bills etc... Internet sellers don't have anywhere near the overheads, and as they can just order each week what they need, dont even have to hold that much stock. Therefore basically all they do is re-label a package that comes in and send it, making it very easy to undercut everyone else.
> 
> There is one local store left that sells roleplay books and he struggles because of places like amazon and ebay because his stuff costs 15% more, but he can't afford to compete with them as it would mean he would basically not get paid.


This is the same with every single business on the planet though.

My father has the same problems with his Fishing Tackle shop, it's got to the point where his shop is a showroom for eBay. 

People come in, ask if he stocks a certain rod or reel, they check it out have a good look at it, then if they like it they go home and buy it for less than any standard shop can on eBay.

I don't believe stopping the online shops is the answer, it could have the undesired effect of alienating and forcing people to leave the hobby.


----------



## Wolfblade (Mar 18, 2008)

Personally, I think it's the GW stores themselves that GW need to focus their attention on. Every time I go in my local store, I get someone trying to sell me something I don't want. I actually told one guy that I have no interest in WHF, and his reaction was "Yeah, but...." and carried on trying to sell me something I'd just told him I have no interest in.

Another time, I went in to buy one pot of paint, and the guy tried to talk me into buying more (not the same guy). I told him I actually prefer Vallejo, and I was just buying that one pot because I needed it quickly, and he decided to lecture me on how GW paint was so much better. All this time, there was a kid stood there, waiting at the till. In the end, I bought my one pot of paint and left (actually the last time I'd stepped foot in there), spending a couple of quid. As I was leaving, I heard the kid say he wanted to buy a rather large box set.

When I witness things like that, it doesn't fill me with belief that GW want to help kids get into the hobby. It was fairly obvious that the sales person was sticking firmly (and wrongly) to where he perceived the most money to be coming from.

I originally left the hobby because of price increases. Months after restarting (early 2008), there was a price increase. Now, a year later, there's yet another, plus a rumoured buttfuck for online stores.

Ultimately, GW need to realise that demanding more money per unit isn't always the best way. Price drops in certain areas can actually increase your overall profit AND make you look like the good guy.


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

Jezlad said:


> This is the same with every single business on the planet though.
> 
> My father has the same problems with his Fishing Tackle shop, it's got to the point where his shop is a showroom for eBay.
> 
> ...


And GW is trying to do something to stop the people that have the B&M stores from having to close down because of it. Because of what there doing it will give people that own shops the ability to under sell the online shops. 

And here people sit trying to bash them for it. What is every going to do in a year or so when the B&M can't pay there bills and have to close? Ya some people wont care, but what about the large groups that play at the shops? Where are they going to go? 

Where are the new people just starting or re-starting the hobby going to go to learn how to play and get in to the hobby? I don't know any one that started the hobby because they found on online seller and wanted to play.

Wolfblade, all prices go up. Not just GW. tastycakes (An eastern US company that sells snacks) used to sell pies at .50$ each, now, a couple years latter they sell for 1.06$ each. If GW doesn't raise prices to match there cost it wont matter how many they sell, selling in the red is still selling in the red and will never get them a profit.


----------



## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

Wolfblade said:


> Personally, I think it's the GW stores themselves that GW need to focus their attention on. Every time I go in my local store, I get someone trying to sell me something I don't want. I actually told one guy that I have no interest in WHF, and his reaction was "Yeah, but...." and carried on trying to sell me something I'd just told him I have no interest in.
> 
> Another time, I went in to buy one pot of paint, and the guy tried to talk me into buying more (not the same guy). I told him I actually prefer Vallejo, and I was just buying that one pot because I needed it quickly, and he decided to lecture me on how GW paint was so much better. All this time, there was a kid stood there, waiting at the till. In the end, I bought my one pot of paint and left (actually the last time I'd stepped foot in there), spending a couple of quid. As I was leaving, I heard the kid say he wanted to buy a rather large box set.
> 
> ...


That is just a small part of the staff that do that but i do agree GW do need to work on there own stores.

on the very rare ocasions i get to my GW i have to deal with a blue T the same (i will leave his name out of this) this was untill he pushed me so mucth to try and place an order for the stompa after telling him i dont play orcs he still whent on and on untill anuffer staffer had to stop him trying to sell me this stompa when i did tell him i would buy one just to make it to put up his arse side ways!

that story may seem point less but if GW did worl with there stores to get staffers to read peoples body to see when to push a sale and not it would help.

im not arguing that this is not good for B&M stores but it is well bad for guys that own online stores becouse they will be put in this tier systeam at the bottem. So trying to keep B&M stores from going under may couse online stores to go under insted where is the justist in that.


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

JokerGod said:


> And GW is trying to do something to stop the people that have the B&M stores from having to close down because of it. Because of what there doing it will give people that own shops the ability to under sell the online shops.


Are they though? Really? It seems from the suggestion that they are forcing B&M stores to become more like GW hobby centres if they want the top discount, that doesn't seem to me to smack of concern for the welfare of their business. That suggests that they would like to control the way the shop does its business and force them to agree to 'good customer' terms if they want the best discount. 

What if your LGS doesn't want to maintain a miminum stock ratio of GW products to other model companies? What if they don't have the space for tables or the staff for introduction games of WHF and 40K? It strikes me that if this scheme ends up being implemented as it is described then it isn't going to be universally good for B&M LGS owners. It may well be fantastic for those that have a big store with a good GW-product customer base and an internet presence, but it wont be good for the stores that are smaller and only stock a reduced range of GW products along with items from lots of other model companies.

I read it as an attempt to gain greater control over the internet sales market for GW products. Just as the previous initiatives have aimed to do. The 'you can't use a trolley checkout' was obviously designed to counter competition to GWs online store. The 'you can't buy trade to sell in parts' killed off the bits trade effectively so that GWs half-arsed bits antics would have more customers. The latest 'you can only order from GW once a week' was quite obviously to force business to keep greater stock of GW, a move that anyone can see would mean smaller businesses not being able to supply GW products effectively.

Isn't it more likely that rather than supporting LGS owners, who let's face it aren't exactly model GW customers when they stock other companies products, this move is in fact designed to bring more trade to GWs online sales? The online store is their best markup having far less overheads than stores and charges full whack for product and postage. So it is not surprising that most people avoid it like the plague when they can buy cheaper elsewhere. If I ran GWs online store I would certainly welcome yet another move that clamps down on the competition.


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

people dont have to do it the same as a gw store, but if they do they get benefits for doing it.
in fact they actually get rewarded for the effort they put into the hobby in their community, seems like a good thing to me.


----------



## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I wonder if the reason GW is doing this is related to their own cutbacks in staffing to their games stores. If they can use a bit of financial muscle to "persuade" stores to fulfill more of the roles of a GW branded store then they don't have to invest as much money in their own shop network. They've cut the staffing drastically in many shops (in many cases down to just one full timer!) I wonder if they are trying to elimanate the overheads by removing the need for opening shops but still having heavy area coverage.


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Sorry only just noticed the thread.

As I mentioned on the other place, its true but the exact details are not available as yet.

We are not overly concerned.

Someone made a point that a B&M could sell online and undercut us (for example)... but then they would be classed by GW as an online retailer and their pricing would change.

The proposal appears to be legal... but falls into problems where a B&M store takes advantage of its different pricing and competes with discounters. Then in the EU at least the pricing model actually becomes unfair and anti competitive despite what any lawyer might argue for on the pricing models behalf. I'm sure GW have thought of all of this through.

Games shops are not gold mines, no matter the margin on products. So there is an issue here of trying to understand what they are trying to achieve. Better supported retail stores? More new hobbyists? A retreat into core markets?

If its to help INDY B&M stores, its the worst time in history to put faith in retail... 

I do think that smaller and less professional etailers are really going to suffer through this and struggle. I don't say that with any level of satisfaction at less competition but just as a mark of respect to the amount of effort this stuff takes to sell properly.

Opps forgot..
Someone somewhere has critiqued online stores as they are parasitic.. and don't expand the hobby..

Well how about they allow players with marginal finances the ability to stay in the hobby by spending less, if that isnt of value then ill eat my car.


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

squeek said:


> What if your LGS doesn't want to maintain a miminum stock ratio of GW products to other model companies? What if they don't have the space for tables or the staff for introduction games of WHF and 40K? It strikes me that if this scheme ends up being implemented as it is described then it isn't going to be universally good for B&M LGS owners. It may well be fantastic for those that have a big store with a good GW-product customer base and an internet presence, but it wont be good for the stores that are smaller and only stock a reduced range of GW products along with items from lots of other model companies.


Just wanna say, if an indy store doesn't let us play games in the store, fuck them.

If they just want to stock warmachine, fuck them.

Seriously, why reward a center that doesn't want to teach new people the game or at least try to keep SOME amount of the product shelved. Plus, it's a nice way to edge out the growing competition, which honestly, is a good career move for them.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

also yes the overheads for an online store are much lower than a shop front. especially a games workshop which always seems to have huge staff numbers. but you have to remember as rich said the profits are considerably lower an online store now needs to offer an absolute minimum of 25% off just to compete and this really doesnt leave much in the profit bank and then after postage which has also become competitive you really are not making huge amounts of revenue.
plus GW is still making a profit from the stock sold to online traders so it's not like they lose out


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

GW loses money due to poor business planning.

All other companies in efficient industries use a just in time theory of production, to save costs (massively might I add) they only produce things as they need them, shit businesses have an inventory. GW tends to product models in massive batches and hoard them for a long time. (Why you can buy a model with 1998 printed on it...).

Finally, GW fails hard for customer relations, they claim their price rises are justified.

Character model 1994 cost what was it $7.95 in Australia, it's currently $22. Triple the price? They can't claim that costs have increased that much in all honesty. Can't be bothered calculating but I would wager that's about 10% a year or so or more. Inflation in Australia has been between 2-4% so a price rise in line with inflation is what all DECENT companies use with price rises. GW has more than tripled inflation in terms of price increases, that is not ethical business practices, in fact the best comparison of the company everyone loves to hate is microsoft which used similar price gouging techniques to gain enormous profits. Before you say BUT THAT'S OK, monopolies are considered bad in capitolism, so much so, that in the EU and Australia and even to a lesser degree in America, the government has laws against companies which dissuade competition, it's just that GW isn't big enough/mainstream enough for the government to care and force them to have more competition.

Ultimately, the biggest problem for GW, is that they've had no competition for most of their existence, even until now. As a result, they've failed to innovate, failed to improve processes and business practices. Not to mention that the actual cost of their production is shocking low.

Finally their culture how their stores are, who wants to be constantly pressured to buy more shit every time, the manager at the store near me won't speak to me anymore cause I refused to pre-order the new IG book when I have fucking tomb kings....

Don't feel bad for the failure of GW, their failure isn't because of prices or rising costs, the price increases they have aren't because they have to, but because instead of innovating and improving, they rest on their monopolistic position. If they want to become profitable in the long term, they need to seriously re-think their business model.


----------



## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

well, i think GW's gona shoot thenselfs in the foot here tbh, and could end up loseing a lot of gamers, mainly those on a budget. put it this way, im hopefully gona be placeing an order online soon for some bits, which online will cost £65, but if i go in to GW to buy em, it will cost £85, so im gona save 20 quid, which can be used for more models/paint, or as im buying em for me birthday, i got an extra 20quid to have a few beers on me birthday.
TBH, the only time i go in to my local GW is to buy any paints i need, and maybe (very rarely) the odd model that i need urgently. i dont game in there, becourse A; i go to my local club that has more room and bigger tables, and B my local GW is a small store with bugger all room in it and only small gameing tables.
@lordwaffles, so in your opinon, if a small FLGs is to small (i.e the store is only about 25' by 25', and with stock and shelfs in, theres no room for a table) to have a table in for gameing, even though they stock the models and games you want, you wont surport em? isnt that a bit elitest? but then i have notcied that an elitest attitude is apearing on many of the forums (not just here), that basicly if your a budget gamer, then you SHOULDNT play GW games unless your happy to spend X amount a week on the hobby.

this is just my opinion and is no way an attack or attempt to flame anyone.

(now sits back and waits to be flamed for dearing to be a budget gamer.................lol)


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

i have over 8000 points of empire and am actually considering sellig it all as it's getting far to cost restrictive to keep up with updates and new models etc, and if this actually goes through and i lose the online company i use (yes also a budget gamer only models i ever buy form GW is ones that are direct only) then i'll definately be looking elseware to spend my time


----------



## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I got back into Warhammer last year after leaving at the start of 3ed. I came back looked on the GW site and saw as a student I would not be able to play this game. But takes to ebay stores and online stores I can play. So I think its a bit unfair to say that online stores bring nothing to the market.
I really hope this does not screw over Online stores. When I am at uni I only have the GW store I dont have any FLGS I dont think they are very common so if the online stores go I am not going to be able to carry on. 


PS. Anybody know a good FLGS in london that stocks warhammer and lets you play (has players) ?


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Assuming this rumour has any merit, i dont think it has anything to do with price, selling to indie traders is one of the most profitable ways for GW to make money.
If GW sell £10k of stock to an indie trader they have made their money and banked it but if they send the same £10k of stock to a GW store they have made nothing infact they are at a loss ,because they have paid to produce,pack and deliver it, not to mention the store costs such as wages and rent etc.
Then they have no guarantee that the GW stores stock will sell or in what time scale,so they again pay more rent and staff wages.
but the stock they sold to the indie trader they dont have to worry about the time it takes to sell because they have already made a profit.

It would make more sense to offer a higher rate of discount to sellers who sell more stock,that way the people who are really driving the hobby benefit,having a bricks and mortar store does not equate to sales, if it did GW would have a shop on every high street.A FLGS may give a place for people to play,but its prime reason for being is to sell you GW stock,without that they are always going to fail.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Talos said:


> I got back into Warhammer last year after leaving at the start of 3ed. I came back looked on the GW site and saw as a student I would not be able to play this game. But takes to ebay stores and online stores I can play. So I think its a bit unfair to say that online stores bring nothing to the market.
> I really hope this does not screw over Online stores. When I am at uni I only have the GW store I dont have any FLGS I dont think they are very common so if the online stores go I am not going to be able to carry on.
> 
> 
> PS. Anybody know a good FLGS in london that stocks warhammer and lets you play (has players) ?


That's what I was saying in terms of how GW conducts its business. If they lowered prices their sales volume would increase drastically from so many people. Especially considering students in general would be huge markets for them.


----------



## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

Damn, this is all one major f%cking bummer maaaannn!!!

I leave the game for two years only to come back in 2008 to have all this crap going on. Should've boughten them up all a long time ago. Though, there are a lot of good prices and deals and shops on Ebay which is were my brother bought all my LOTR minis for me.

~The Beltiac abides...


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

NagashKhemmler said:


> That's what I was saying in terms of how GW conducts its business. If they lowered prices their sales volume would increase drastically from so many people. Especially considering students in general would be huge markets for them.


But they can't, that is what people don't get. If you make a product for 1$ and then sell it for 75 cents you will never make a profit, you can sell five copy's or five million, your still taking a loss.

I don't know what it is that makes people think that there hobby is are disconnected from the real world, ALL prices go up over time, GW is no exception. 

I used to be able to get the best new game out there for 30-40$, now there 50$. Gas used to be 1.50$, now its 2.20$ and up. I got my PS2 for around 200$ when it came out, PS3? 300-500$ As time gos on money is worth less then what it used to be so prices rise, its just the way it works.


----------



## Da Red Paintjob Grot (May 6, 2008)

I would only require 2 things of GW at the moment, that they either reduce their prices oir let me use an independent stockist, and that they thurn our Un-friendly local game store into a friendly Local game store. when will they wake up and realise that the are driving us AWAY by increasing prices?


----------



## Wolfblade (Mar 18, 2008)

JokerGod said:


> But they can't, that is what people don't get. If you make a product for 1$ and then sell it for 75 cents you will never make a profit, you can sell five copy's or five million, your still taking a loss.


Of course they can. Sure, not on those figures you just magicked out of thin air, but on their real figures? Absolutely.

The very bottom line is that they sell very little plastic for a huge price. Sure, you need to pay for staff, packaging and materials, but that should be more than manageable. 

To be honest, at the most basic level, they put liquid plastic in a mould, allow it to dry and then take it out again. Box it up, ship it out. There's no reason why they should make any kind of loss on present pricing models. If they do, it's ALL down to bad business practises.


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

Wolfblade said:


> Of course they can. Sure, not on those figures you just magicked out of thin air, but on their real figures? Absolutely.
> 
> The very bottom line is that they sell very little plastic for a huge price. Sure, you need to pay for staff, packaging and materials, but that should be more than manageable.
> 
> To be honest, at the most basic level, they put liquid plastic in a mould, allow it to dry and then take it out again. Box it up, ship it out. There's no reason why they should make any kind of loss on present pricing models. If they do, it's ALL down to bad business practises.


There already selling close to loss. And you want them to start selling at a loss so you don't have to pay for the product? And people call GW greedy.

And you can't just make it simple, the real world doesn't work that way. They have to buy the high quality plastic, then they have to heir the artist to sculpt the model, then they need to buy the mold, then they can start to make the product, nothing in the proses is cheap or easy. 

in all honesty it is you, and the people that complain about them charging for there service that are the greedy ones, you want something that some one els worked to make but you want it for next to nothing.


----------



## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

Death Shroud said:


> ..Sheriff in "only SECOND greediest bastard in Nottingham" shocker! "I'm going to need more arrows" says Robin Hood.
> 
> :laugh:


Overly we are not too worried either. Until it happens no one knows were we all stand. We were looking into the possibility of opening a proper bricks and mortar store, with tables ect anyway so best case scenario it makes no difference, worst case, it brings our plans forward.

As for the quote above, its one of the funniest things i have seen on here for ages!


----------



## Wolfblade (Mar 18, 2008)

JokerGod said:


> There already selling close to loss. And you want them to start selling at a loss so you don't have to pay for the product? And people call GW greedy.
> 
> And you can't just make it simple, the real world doesn't work that way. They have to buy the high quality plastic, then they have to heir the artist to sculpt the model, then they need to buy the mold, then they can start to make the product, nothing in the proses is cheap or easy.
> 
> in all honesty it is you, and the people that complain about them charging for there service that are the greedy ones, you want something that some one els worked to make but you want it for next to nothing.


And why are they selling at close to a loss? Because they have no business sense. I reiterate, at the prices they charge, there is NO WAY they shouldn't be making a hell of a profit.

The things you listed; having a model sculpted, the manufacture of moulds etc, and pretty much one off events. The sculptor gets paid, the moulds get used for years.

"The real world doesn't work that way". Well son, I'm afraid it does. You HAVE to get the simple things right. If you don't, there's no point having a complicated business model, it just won't function. People are all about making things hard for themselves these days, causing untold amounts of stress.

Yes, I'm greedy. I'm so greedy that I've lined GW's pockets time after time. I don't want products at next to nothing, but I DO want them at a reasonable price.

But hey, I'm not going to change the mind of a hardcore GW fanboy, so never mind eh?


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

Wolfblade said:


> And why are they selling at close to a loss? Because they have no business sense. I reiterate, at the prices they charge, there is NO WAY they shouldn't be making a hell of a profit.
> 
> The things you listed; having a model sculpted, the manufacture of moulds etc, and pretty much one off events. The sculptor gets paid, the moulds get used for years.
> 
> ...


They sell at next to no profit because every time they have to raise prices due to rising cost of operation there players start to cry and moan about it.

And yes, Molds are one offs, but they are VERY expensive one offs, sculptors are also very expensive one offs. Its not like there only paying a few hundred for each one, there thousands for a single mold.


----------



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Can we bring this one back on topic?

Its about reseller price changes, not GW price raises. There are other threads dedicated to that.

The price of the sculptor has absolutely no relation to GW changing gw's online trader discount.


----------



## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

Hi all. I can confirm we recieved a letter stating the tiers of discount today. From what i can see most online sellers will have 30% discount and the top Gamesworkshop sellers (B&M who offer what GW offer) will get 45% discount.
The actual new terms and conditions will not be available untill monday the 18th of May so no one will really know the ins and outs till then. Cant say i am surprised by all this but i do think that this is a bad move from GW. Its the online sellers who make the most money for them. They make more money from us than selling in there own stores, so why they have done this i do not know. If there stores cant make money how do they expect someone else to do it for them?


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah, I was about to post something but bon_jovi got there first...

30% from the first of June onwards, not sure where this leaves me with re-opening the store.


----------



## Syph (Aug 3, 2008)

Just to clarify chaps, at present, what discount do you get?


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

At the moment, a Space Marine Tactical squad costs me 9.96 GBP _BEFORE_ VAT

I've been told that I will receive 30% off the gross Manufactures Retail Price.

Now I'm not sure whether that 30% includes or excludes VAT, I've literally only just opened the letter.


----------



## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

It sounds like an interesting idea and I'm all for hurting the online stores a little to help out the local stores cause having a local store can EASILY cost a LOT of money. I mean think about spending $1000-5000 a month on rent then you gotta have staff and you have to buy a sign and shelves and a cash register and all that adds up very quickly. 

I'd prefer to buy online for the biggest discount I can get since I build a lot of tanks and literally $5 off on each would have saved me a good $500 in the last 4 years but I don't wanna see the independent game stores go away. I had one out here that was like 1/3rd as far from me as the closest GW and even though I didn't go there much since I was like 14 when it was open I still kinda miss it. I never knew the owner to well but he was really nice. Nicer that all but maybe 4 staff members at my Local GW and in the 12 years I have been going there there have probably been at least 50 different redshirts.

Here is what I'm thinking. Why don't we encourage some online stores to work together with brick and mortar stores? If they combined and had a local shop they would get the discount and have a place for people to hang out and such then they would have the online store to hit a wider customer base. It could get complicated but if people do it right it means the best of both worlds for them and us though I guess it still pinches GW some but who of us doesn't like that idea?


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Lord of Rebirth said:


> It sounds like an interesting idea and I'm all for hurting the online stores a little to help out the local stores cause having a local store can EASILY cost a LOT of money. I mean think about spending $1000-5000 a month on rent then you gotta have staff and you have to buy a sign and shelves and a cash register and all that adds up very quickly.
> 
> I'd prefer to buy online for the biggest discount I can get since I build a lot of tanks and literally $5 off on each would have saved me a good $500 in the last 4 years but I don't wanna see the independent game stores go away. I had one out here that was like 1/3rd as far from me as the closest GW and even though I didn't go there much since I was like 14 when it was open I still kinda miss it. I never knew the owner to well but he was really nice. Nicer that all but maybe 4 staff members at my Local GW and in the 12 years I have been going there there have probably been at least 50 different redshirts.
> 
> Here is what I'm thinking. Why don't we encourage some online stores to work together with brick and mortar stores? If they combined and had a local shop they would get the discount and have a place for people to hang out and such then they would have the online store to hit a wider customer base. It could get complicated but if people do it right it means the best of both worlds for them and us though I guess it still pinches GW some but who of us doesn't like that idea?


No matter what the discount differentials, B&M stores in this day and age are generally non viable because for the most part the business models in place are 20 years out of date.

Also, the discount isn't working in the way you describe.

If we opened our storefront tomorrow, there is no way on this earth that any but the smallest proportion of our sales would come from on site custom. GW would know that and decide we were an on line store, and quite rightly.

An on line retailer opening retail space doesn't provide the solution in this case.


----------



## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

It'll be interesting to see how many games stores go with expanding to meet GW criteria for lower prices (some simply will not be able too) and how many decide it's simply easier to leave seeling GW products to GW stores (and GW online) and simply bolster their ranges of other alternatives.

I'd happily support my local independent wargames store but "Games Unlimited" went many a year ago and it's probably just as easy for me to get to Orcs Nest as anywhere else (or do my shopping once a year at Salute!). For non-GW products (an arena which is attracting an increase percentage of my gaming interest) online shopping is my only option really.

Unless someone can recommend good games store that's easily accessible from the Kingston Upon Thames area


----------



## radical_psyker (Jun 6, 2008)

rich1231 said:


> If we opened our storefront tomorrow, there is no way on this earth that any but the smallest proportion of our sales would come from on site custom. GW would know that and decide we were an on line store, and quite rightly.


That's the bit that doesn't sit well with me. Judging/penalising a B&M store because it draws more sales than it's immediate area should generate, seems very antitrust (or whatever term applies) to me.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

This is simply just an attempt by GW to close on line retailers,its got nothing to do with supporting B&M indie stores so dont be hood winked into the corporate bollocks they will spout,GW will only allow supply to a B&M store if they are not interested in the location you want to open one in,trust me i know this from expereince ,GW are more interested in getting its product into large chains like hobbycraft and toy world and then possibly super markets but the large chains wont entertain them when they will have to compete with cheap on line stores,the increase of 15% on the trade price plus VAt will mean that online traders will not be able to offer any discount and without that edge alot will fold.
Its basicly a ballsy move by GW who will be hoping to shift sales from the cheap online sales market back to them or force the online seller to use RRP.

either way its gonna upset alot of people,firstly the sellers and more importantly the customers because at the end of the day your gonna be paying *alot* more from now on regardless of if you shop online or in a B&M.


----------



## BrotherYorei (May 9, 2009)

i think some people did not read the original post fully.

a shop, be it online or local store, is place on a tier dependant on multiple issues.

1) promotion. do they have the posters and other promotional media that GW sends them displayed?

2) sales. are they selling a consistant amount of product? are they ordering regularly from the wholesalers?

i think quite a lot of shops and online businesses shouldnt be affected too much, unless they dont promote GW or sell so little that GW probably forget they exist until they get the rare call for more product, in which case, the small shop that orders that rarely should probably restructure or close.


----------



## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

This will probably be a death knell for games workshop in my area.
Where I live its rural and the only games workshop in norfolk is a tiny shop in Norwich which for me takes at least 90 minutes each way even longer if I rely on the local bus service which is patchy at best.
There are a few toy shops and a model shop in the surrounding towns but they sell Gw stuff as a secondary concern a few have recently stopped selling its stuff because the minimum order is so high and they end up with an excess of stock that no one buys so if they then have to put in even more effort to make a profit I can't see that many of them sticking with GW.


----------



## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

I cannot even guess the reasons behind the move from GW, but untill we see the new T's and C's tomorrow morning we have no idea how the tiers will be structured. At worst the online price for most sellers will only go up by a few pounds (if that) so its not all that bad really. If the 3rd tier is set on volume sales then it matters even less (depending on the level needed) At the end of the day, we will still be able to discount a lot of money off the rrp. I do see peoples points on the B+M stores and agree we need to support them as its a great palce to go and play the game, but i come from the perspective that at the cost of some of the models at full price. it seems stupid to me to pay that price if you dont have to. 

The only thing that the online sellers like us have to worry about is weather they put in a clause to not allow shops to sell online with the full discount. If i was them i would not as it would be far better for them from a business point of view to sell to a B+M shop with high volumes of sales from online and an outlet for people to play the games and promote GW as thats what they
say they are after. If that is the case its game over for most of us!!!

We are planning to open a B+M shop soon so it will be interesting to see what hoops GW make us jump through to get the full discount.


----------



## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

! get my product from an online site at 20-30% off retail price then if I pay over 150$ CAD I then get free shipping. 

I Understand what GW is attempting to do but if this is a problem for them why dont they just:

1. Pull back all stock from all stores that are not GW outlets. This would allow Gamesworkshop locations monopolize the market

2. Then make sure there are more GW locations available around the globe. To ensure that every city/town has a Local Bunker to sell the product as well as well as have a place to game.

3. Then drop prices to a price where there is obviously a profit but at the same time at a reasonable cost for all consumers. 

This way GW reaps any and all profit, Local stores are not competing with the little clubs around towns tryig to undercut them to attempt to gather more sales, and now there is 1-2 bunkers that build up communities of games in each town. This would allow for better turn outs for tournaments because everyone is not scattered through the cities in their own little clubs. 

I know this is a little far fetched but I could definitely see a drastic approach like this benefit GW and the gaming community as a whole. It just seems GW has not realized that the only way their company thrives is off us (the consumers) so by jacking up prices so that fewer items are purchased and a higher price really does not help them.

Chaosftw


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Just to clarify...
GW cannot put in a clause to control the price you sell anything for.

And second opening a store and still selling the majority of your items via the web will still mean you are classed as an online retailer.

Do not open a store to gain B&M discount to trade online with would be my advice.

We have a shop area in our warehouse already and to turn to GW and suddenly claim 51% of our sales are now real people on site would be a non starter.

Bear in mind this is coinciding with general price increases, so I would expect significant price rises from most online retailers.

Most of our staff come from ex GW or a local game store and we know what their footfall is and a stockist mainly having GW items on sale, no matter what the margin, is not going lead to a full wallet. If you claimed £10k a week of sales from a B&M store on GW items as a figure i have pulled from my behind, firstly GW would question it, and secondly there would be a real GW store opening before you can change your window display.

No matter what GW think, long term real walk in trade for niche products is pretty much doomed and the Internet is the new king of the hill.


----------



## WoRLoKKeD (Apr 1, 2008)

Druchii in Space said:


> Fortuantely the LGS I support, also sells online and ebay with a reduced rate, so this shouldn't effect him. In fact like Jez has said potentially he'll be in a stronger position as he's already selling at discount online via his store anyway.
> 
> I can see the reasoning, although it'll be interesting to see how this effects overal sales once again.


Ooh. That wouldn't be a certain shop in Felixstowe, would it?

As a whole, it seems to make a lot of sense, as online places, while useful to get bits cheap, really do seem to be rapidly damaging independant B&M stores. 
Maybe this will level things a bit. I don't know.


----------



## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

When i said about the clause in the contract, it was not with reference to how much you can sell items for, but a clause to prevent a hobby shop selling online at 45% discount. If it hits the tier to get the 45% discount in the first place they cannot then class it as an online store just because it sells online, they have all the criteria there for the full doscount so unless there is a clause to prevent them doing so, nothing stops them selling online. This i think would benefit GW as they would gain a lot of sales through trade while eliminating a lot of the compatition that cannot sell as low as a B+M store with full discount. That way they get the sales and the hobby is pushed through the local stores which as they keep saying is what they are after. 

If they did do this i cannot fault them at all as it makes good business sense to me. But again no one knows what the levels of discount are at yet so who knows what is in the new terms but as ever i am sure it will be plastered all over the forums so we will all know the score!!!!


----------



## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

dosent affect me much i must say-ive got my army, and my indi stoped sellling warhammer when GW moved in.


----------



## Selorian (Jun 17, 2008)

GW's Independent Retailer section is down meaning that I can't check the new Terms & Conditions.

We received the letter today which states that you can contact the Trade Department for a copy of the new Terms & Conditions. Sent an e-mail first thing this morning and I still don't have a reply.

We are looking at a 30% reduction opposed to our current 35% discount. As it stands prior to the alterations in June, we make around 10% after fees. That is primarily due to how competitive pricing is. 

Currently online retailers are reducing their prices to such an extent they are not only hurting other businesses but also their own.

With this new system, we could be potentially faced with larger online shops getting a far higher discount than smaller online shops. 

Should the standard 20-25% discounts still stand, smaller shops would not be able to cope and would ultimately have to shut down, something which we will have to strongly consider after reading the new Terms & Conditions.


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

WoRLoKKeD said:


> Ooh. That wouldn't be a certain shop in Felixstowe, would it?
> 
> As a whole, it seems to make a lot of sense, as online places, while useful to get bits cheap, really do seem to be rapidly damaging independant B&M stores.
> Maybe this will level things a bit. I don't know.


Sorry thats flawed.

The only thing damaging B&M stores are the store owners for not adapting, no matter how sympathecitally you want to look at them.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

exactly a good online store is just as good as a good b&m store and vice versa all down to the ownership, lets face it if your fav place to game is in a GW store you'll go there and more than likely pay full price for things. i find it hard to beleive that everyone would jump ship as soon as an indi opened up down the road. 

indies are just another place to buy models from and for people on a budget it means they too can buy the same stuff, and anyway in a competitive world like this why should GW be kept on their toes? after all imagine the prices if you could only buy direct from GW!!! 
£100 steam tank anyone??


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I hope people are not looking at this move by GW as though GW "are trying to save B&M Stores from the nasty online retailers" because that's not the case at all, if GW wanted to help out indies b&m's they could have left the trade prices the same for online retailers and dropped the trade discount by 10% for B&M stores,GW work on a 70% gross margin which means they were making 35% profit by selling to indie traders so they have room to move down to help the b&m stores out without hurting the online retailers.This is a move to simply to make you pay more for the products ,nothing more and nothing less,its got nothing at all to do with local game stores staying in business,in a perfect world GW would sell to you via the games workshop website only, like they do with forgeworld, think about it, why is forge world online only? because its cheaper,dont need to hold much stock,dont need many staff dont need loads of expensive shops.

Plus a B&M store is on the road to nowhere anyway because if their was a market for GW products in a given location in the UK ,GW would already have a shop there and would not allow you to open one with miles of it. I know a few model shops near were i live that GW will not supply because they are within 10 miles of Wakefield hobby center,these store owners would love to stock kits but cant unless they only agree to sell them online.

At the end of the day someone will always be selling GW stock cheaper than GW want them to sell it as long as they allow non GW companies access to the stock,maybe its about time GW realized that they might actually do more business if they dropped prices or had a sale now and again,you might not make a huge margin on the sale days but you get people back into the shops and then they come back


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

GW is a monopoly for their own product, and have every right to CONTROL the methods through which this product makes it to the market, thus controlling how they profit from it.
They do this in a number of ways, one of which is try to maintain the HOBBY! 
Without a strong environment for players, hobbyists and event organizers, the HOBBY will die. Having worked in the industry for over 18 years, I watched WOTC nearly commit suicide trying to turn the fast buck and allowing online retailers free rain to dominate the market. It took them being 'saved' by Hasbro (still up in the air on that one with the mauling D&D just took, but it sure saved MTG) to survive that mire, and they have still had to TOTALLY revamp how they handle themselves over the last two years to gain a resurgence, bringing pre-releases and events back into the FLGS's vs the fly by night clubs and online gits.
I have no issue with online selling and buying, but creating an environment that supports a HOBBY (and a SOCIAL intercourse environment) is necessary to WARGAMING that doesn't involve point and click. 
Me, maybe I'm a fatbeard, but I know that having advantages over online retailers allowed me to maintain a store that had (still has, without me) 12 gaming tables, and was able to adjust for a 56 man 'ard boyz event, and run bi-monthly tournaments.
If it weren't for all that, my store would have closed during this current recession...instead of forging ahead and pulling out of it strongly. 
Without that, my gaming group, my friends, and my customers would have lost a meeting place and a shop. 
Finally, I make more money for myself and GW by having people come in to play and peruse. How, it's called impulse buys. It's called promo models and codex's in my customers sight/hands. It's called seeing things on the table when people are playing. You get none of this from online sellers, and by not reaping those benefits yourself GW gets far less a return on their dollar than by supporting the FLGS's and local clubs vs. the online 'I'm gonna turn a fast buck in my garage/basement/what have you' bunch that doesn't care about the hobby outside their own club.

Sorry, but Kudos GW, for finally stepping up and finishing what you started about 6(ish) years ago...KUDOS!


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Well Exitus, that's just charming.

What about those gamers who have to budget and can barely afford to stay in the hobby even _with_ the aid of online sellers? Or those who don't have a gaming club at all within a one hour train journey, never mind an amazing store that has 12 gaming tables.

I know a fair few gamers who will not be buying anything for a looong time when the online discount disappears, what about them? F*ck em, that's a brilliant COMMUNITY spirit.

Games Workshop are NOT doing this for any aspect of the Hobby or community, they're having a problem financially and this must be what they think is their solution. Online sellers make more sales than B&M stores, them having to pay more will generate more cash.

That's right, they're GW's worst enemy, generating all those sales for them... Bad, bad people


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

Concrete: nice way to put that....and missed the point entirely.
sorry, you cannot really complain about the pricing on a purely entertainment based environment. can't afford it, don't buy new or play. I don't work at my own store anymore, I am moving up north and currently jobless. first thing I did was research for my nearest local FLGS and accepted the fact that my unemployed status will keep me from purchasing things for the near future. won't keep from from playing, will keep me from buying.
if you are not near a store, then you buy online...notice I said I had no real issue with online sales, just believe that GW has a right to insure that their HOBBY remains intact (in this case by bringing those without an overhead into a pricing structure/profit margin similar to B&M stores), thus insuring that those of us who want to still play will find places to do so. You don't have a store nearby, you buy online. you have one, you buy there (buy where you play mentality). 
you cannot afford? well, sorry, I cannot afford my favorite scotch...it's 300$ plus per bottle....I save up and by one every few years or so, but I don't complain because glen-fiddich is charging that much for a 30 year old scotch, I just don't buy myself into bankruptcy to fill that particular need in my life.

I cannot feel a HUGE amount of sympathy for people that cannot afford a luxury. I quit smoking 1.5 years ago, COLD TURKEY, after a pack a day habit for over 25 years...I had a month of misery, and now I don't spend money on cigs... meh, couldn't afford it anymore. 
If you cannot afford to play with toy soldiers without a discount, maybe you shouldn't be playing anymore????

sorry, i wouldn't have been snarky but your response was.

And yes, it is about money...if you read the entire post, instead of responding to the elements that ired you up, you would have noted I said they are looking for the BEST RETURN ON THEIR MONEY!
In this case, it is making the foundation of their business as solid as possible, by making those that participate in said business have venues to express it. the ULTIMATE in business sense is to look at the LONG HAUL. Casualties will come when upheaval occurs, but in the long run the overall HOBBY will maintain and grow stronger.
Finally, ALL industries are looking for new ways to maintain their survival in rough economic times. Is this the ONLY way? Maybe not, but at least they are trying SOMETHING instead of waiting until they go the way of GM, or the Banking system etc etc etc...(yes, very US centric on that take, but it's what I know...I am sure there are other examples outside the US to get the point across).


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

**** EDIT ****

I've decided to edit out what I said, it wasn't contributing to the discussion and was _perhaps_ (*cough*) a little tinged with personal ire. And personally, it wasn't the sort of post I want to be known for 

I probably took what you said a little too much to heart.


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

****EDIT****

gack, well I'M not going to be the bad guy! 

yeah, I think we all have a tendency to take this stuff personally, because we love the material so much we take it to heart.
(because OBVIOUSLY I wasn't ired up at ALL........ hack..... ahem.....*chagrin*)


----------



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> I cannot feel a HUGE amount of sympathy for people that cannot afford a luxury. I quit smoking 1.5 years ago, COLD TURKEY, after a pack a day habit for over 25 years...I had a month of misery, and now I don't spend money on cigs... meh, couldn't afford it anymore.
> If you cannot afford to play with toy soldiers without a discount, maybe you shouldn't be playing anymore????


Comparing a wargame with a largely teenage demographic to smoking is way off the mark here.

If you can't afford it don't play... from the business perspective of a "kids toy" manufacturer that sets alarm bells ringing.


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

Jezlad said:


> Comparing a wargame with a largely teenage demographic to smoking is way off the mark here.
> 
> If you can't afford it don't play... from the business perspective of a "kids toy" manufacturer that sets alarm bells ringing.


Sorry,
that's actually a more US perspective, I will freely admit that. The game demographic here is older. more like 16-40 something, vs 12-20 something that alot of people think is here.


----------



## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

Exitus Acta Probat said:


> I cannot feel a HUGE amount of sympathy for people that cannot afford a luxury. I quit smoking 1.5 years ago, COLD TURKEY, after a pack a day habit for over 25 years...I had a month of misery, and now I don't spend money on cigs... meh, couldn't afford it anymore.
> If you cannot afford to play with toy soldiers without a discount, maybe you shouldn't be playing anymore????


 im uninployed so a discount is always godod as i have to save up to get any thing and the guys at wargames empire and gwonline are my life line as it cost a lot to get to a gw.
if this dose start to effect online shops expect alot of people to say a big FUCK you to GW


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

inqusitor_me said:


> im uninployed so a discount is always godod as i have to save up to get any thing and the guys at wargames empire and gwonline are my life line as it cost a lot to get to a gw.
> if this dose start to effect online shops expect alot of people to say a big FUCK you to GW


GW online doesn't give you a discount though.
My point was not that there should be NO online selling. The point was competitive pricing. Many, NOT ALL, online companies sell with ONLY volume sales in mind, and mark down as much as humanly possible. This is good with material that does not NEED a community to function. 
Unfortunately, Games Workshop games really NEED a community. Need it to function and sell to. Without it, the game will simply cease to be, or become an online version of itself. 
What makes overpriced toy soldiers like this work, two things... a) the best toy soldiers in the industry (yes, there is SOME argument against that, but for the most part that statement is accurate) and b) the most important bit, I can go almost ANYWHERE in North America and Europe, and be within travel distance to a location that will support my hobby(addiction) with at least some like minded players and hobbyists...that is CRITICAL to the survival of this hobby...online excessive discounting risks those FLGS's that keep me in opponents/companions. 
I have a wife, I have friends outside the community, BUT I continue to pursue this hobby because I will ALWAYS find someone to play. Discount half those stores out, and I have more and more difficulty getting to play, getting to peruse the aisles for up close handling of models in person and talk to players/shop owners IN PERSON. it's a SOCIAL hobby...I don't want to just point and click, I want to BS...
Take away that from people who are as avid about it, and you will start losing even more players than the economy has taken from us, and then lose even more stores...etc etc etc....it WILL feed on itself, and there ARE precedents for this kind of thing.
It is a catch 22...we are in a tight economy, and people see discounts as a way to stay involved...but it can hurt things more in the long run than the loss of some players. 
I am currently unemployed, and frankly thanking the gawds that the next two releases are ones that I do not care about (Space Pups and Skaven) or I would be crying in my cups for a lack of job....but I would STILL be supporting a stronger hobby.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

your way off the mark though.

ok online = MASSIVE competition including GW themselves this means you have to offer the same product cheaper and as this cycle continues the price keeps coming down further until there is very little left in the profit bank. so yes volume sales are the key but i fail to see how this hurts GW surely they want sales to be high after all they still turn a nice profit from selling to indies.

and your point about 'making a quick buck from the garage' is wildly inaccurate there is no quick buck i GW products, its business and with any business its hard work and lots of it.

yes on the gaming side of things perhaps it does stop a gaming store being around but there's nothing stopping a group of like minded individuals starting a gaming group. 

playing the game is the easy part to arrange if one can afford to play, if you cant afford to keep up with updates it makes it pretty hard to stay as interested as you do when you can get a nice new model to paint/model/convert

that also leads to another point, painters, some people dont play at all but the modelling/converting side has always been a massive part of the hobby and i'm sure not all of those people pay full price surely that will have a bad effect on gw to lose all the painters and converters who would turn to other manufacturers who do offer a discount.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

sorry Exitus but i have been in the hobby for almost as long as the company has been kicking around i have never played any of GW's games in any of their shops or any hobby shop for that matter, and i will never need to thanks to the internet and neither does anyone else thanks to the internet, their are plenty of war games clubs kicking around that dont need me to be bullied into buying a full priced model by some employee of the company and surely its important that people support the wargames clubs as these dont have financial backing (or another agenda).Personally i think people playing in the stores (gw or otherwise) are not aware of these clubs and have become brainwashed by GW into thinking that the shop is the only place were the hobby goes on,and the reason for that is because GW dont want players to see and experience non GW products and see that there are loads of cheaper fun alternatives to GW core games.
Its a carrot and stick mentality, "if you are a clone GW shop in a location we are not interested in we will give you the same discount you were getting ALREADY, if you want to make a small amount of money and save our customers money by reducing our prices to that what mortals with jobs can afford , tough we will reduce the discount and you can go feck your self"

the biggest single reason i have heard for people leaving the hobby has always been price, so surely keeping the price within the grasp of real people is something GW should be working on?

dont get me wrong having a place to play is important but a place to play does not have to be in a shop that wants to sell you what your playing,infact if anything i think people would prefer to play in a place were they can goto the bathroom or have a beer /pop/something to eat and sit down.


----------



## Da Red Paintjob Grot (May 6, 2008)

My Main problem with this is the fact that although i could possibly stomach GW's prices (just buy less) I cannot go and play at My UFLGS. they're mean. thus, although i wouldn't mind this move by GW, until i have a nice place to play locally, they can go and **** their 'Friendly Local Game Stores'.


----------



## Wolfblade (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm still not entirely sure how this is allowed on a legal level. "Obey us, and you can have stuff cheaper than other people, who may not do EVERYTHING we ask".

The reason I came back to painting GW models has a hell of a lot to do with the background story. It's very engrossing. But let's face it, it has to be for people to grudgingly stick with the company.

Personally, I think this move has more to do with GW's own online store. Their prices are so much higher than any other online store, so they want to push prices up across the board to make themselves more competitive. If someone doesn't live near a GW store, and has to buy online, they would obviously rather it be through theirs (with stupidly high P&P I might add...).

Also, I'd be interested to know how much GW make through the computer games based on their product and BL products.


----------



## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Wolfblade said:


> I'm still not entirely sure how this is allowed on a legal level


it's 100% legal, it's their own product and they can retail it how they choose


----------



## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

And to add to what wolfblade has said about GW's online store, im not impressed with tthe delivery times either. Just before xmas i went to my local GW to try and order some sisters repenter for my wifes SOB army, and after the blue shirt phoned the sales desk, i was told, that even with paying for "express" delivery for store pick up, i still wouldnt get the item till after xmas, maybe the new year.
At the same time, the wife ordered a chaos battleforce set from discount wargames, ordered it on the 16th, and we had recived it by the 19th. Now if a small online store can do that, why the hell cant GW. And before anyone says "oh they get hundreds of orders every day, so it takes time", thats crap, i used to work for a computer parts company that had thousands of orders everyday, and they where picked and shipped the same day the order came in (stock permiting)


----------



## Wolfblade (Mar 18, 2008)

Bindi Baji said:


> it's 100% legal, it's their own product and they can retail it how they choose


It's not quite as simple as that.

In retail, you can't pick and choose the price you sell for. Like, you pick up a can of beans on a shelf for 55 pence, the store owner can't then say "But that's for preferred customers. You're going to have to pay 70 pence".

So, again, I wonder if what they're proposing to do is strictly legal, or whether they have found some kind of loophole. 

If someone *knows* the answer (please, no guess work. I could do that myself, thanks very much), I would be very interested in hearing it.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Bindi Baji said:


> it's 100% legal, it's their own product and they can retail it how they choose


not true, ask hasbro who were sued for price fixing a few years back,they were doing a very similar thing to what gw is about to do,just because you produce a thing does not mean you can do with at you please,GW have to be very careful as they are in a niche market so lack of competition means they have to be whiter than white when it comes to anything that can be seen as monopolizing,they have been investigated a number of times for anti competitive practices and have been forced on a number of occasions to remove parts of the business and allow outside companies to do things they were doing in house.

In the end a monopoly is a bad thing and is one of the reasons GW can charge you what they like,if there was a genuine competitor that was as large and had a similar set of shops,games etc then we would be paying far less for GW products, but as it stands GW was a freak war game accident that wont go away, no game or company that is remotely similar to GW and warhammer /40k is anything like the size or has the popularity.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Wolfblade said:


> It's not quite as simple as that.
> 
> In retail, you can't pick and choose the price you sell for. Like, you pick up a can of beans on a shelf for 55 pence, the store owner can't then say "But that's for preferred customers. You're going to have to pay 70 pence".
> 
> ...


You know i might just give the office of fair trading a ring and see what they make of it.


----------



## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> not true, ask hasbro who were sued for price fixing a few years back,they were doing a very similar thing to what gw is about to do


except what GW are doing here doesn't count as price fixing by UK laws,

check the UK legislation,
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792322

and in no way am I saying this move is a good idea, 
I also have a feeling it won't last long in it's present form


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Wolfblade said:


> It's not quite as simple as that.
> 
> In retail, you can't pick and choose the price you sell for. Like, you pick up a can of beans on a shelf for 55 pence, the store owner can't then say "But that's for preferred customers. You're going to have to pay 70 pence".
> 
> ...


Its legal until its tested in a court. Its not decided by number of posts on the internet against the idea 


Price fixing is illegal, under various EU laws This isnt price fixing.

But reading through the terms myself dfoesnt look like price fixing and I think they look ok. For us certainly we are at the moment very happy.

We do have legal people reviewing them, as we cannot base our business plans on something we dont have a full and detailed understanding of.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Bindi Baji said:


> except what GW are doing here doesn't count as price fixing by UK laws,
> 
> check the UK legislation,
> http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792322
> ...


your link shoes some examples ie the common ones, offering greater or less discounts based on how a company sells your products could be seen by the law as an attempt to fix the price by GW(because its a blatant one). Im not saying its cut and dry case and it would need someone in the legal profession to say "hang on a minute this needs looking at" but decreasing the level of discount with 2 weeks notice isnt going to sit well with some online retailers and some of them are quite large and might want something done about it. 

Business law is a funny thing, sometimes a business practice isnt wrong or illiegal until some one stand up and says i have had enough of this, many of the large companies blatantly break the law and many codes of practice and pay vast sums of money to exploit loop holes or make them and delay or avoid court action.

Personally i think this has more to do with getting their products in to the common market than looking after B&M stores,GW have been actively trying to get the models into large chains for years and have recently managed it twice in the uk with hobbycraft(now they know about over priced hobby stuff) and more recently toyworld, Now both of these chains gives GW a huge market place boost in terms of visibility,they can now approach companies like toys r us/target/argos etcetc and say "well hobby craft and toyworld stock these products, do you want your customers to miss out?" plus with more computer games on the way GW will be even more viable than ever before,Look how dumbed down DOW2 was ,it has gone from a PC strategy game to something that can be chucked around on a console, which again is a massive market and with the advent of a blood ravens codex you will have the perfect tie in, chuck in a tv series and they would have it made.

I cant fault them for wanting to make more money and i cant fault them for wanting to stop the level of discount online sellers sell at, but GW created that culture by allowing anyone a trade account in the first place, if GW had not been so greedy they could have better controlled who got a trade account rather than flooding the market.


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

fynn said:


> And before anyone says "oh they get hundreds of orders every day, so it takes time", thats crap


This is completely true.

Nobody orders from GW's website.


----------



## Selorian (Jun 17, 2008)

The Terms & Conditions are now geared towards offering further reductions for customers who promote Games Workshop products.

Previously the discount a trade customer received was based on the amount of money they spent with GW. I.e. 100k+ 40% off, pay on time etc.

The new Terms & Conditions are geared towards bricks and mortar shops which are given a tick if they meet a requirement.

In order to receive bigger discounts, you require more ticks.

The ticks include:

Send a member of staff to training days along with photographic evidence of your shop displays including Games Workshop products.
Designate an area for people to play games.
Provide an area for customers to paint their miniatures.
Provide a notice board for events.
Display Games Workshop products in hobby racks.
Display Games Workshop in your front window.
etc

The majority of the ticks are geared towards working for and promoting Games Workshop.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Selorian said:


> The Terms & Conditions are now geared towards offering further reductions for customers who promote Games Workshop products.
> 
> Previously the discount a trade customer received was based on the amount of money they spent with GW. I.e. 100k+ 40% off, pay on time etc.
> 
> ...


So dont forget folks when you enter your local B&M and they meet all the tick criteria they should be able to offer you a substantial discount, dont take no for an answer k:


----------



## bon_jovi (Nov 16, 2008)

From our point of view (as a seller) its not great, but it could be worse. I think they have managed to rig the price so its almost at rrp for the online market. After viewing the new trade list its changed dramaticly. I cannot fault them at all, it will almost be a level playing field for online retailers. As in the past its the online sellers (and i include us in this, maybe more than most!!) who have driven the price down that much thats its so low that you have to sell lots to make any good profit!!! So i think it will be interesting to see what happens to all the online prices, also with the addition to the new T's and C's that prevents the sale of new and sealed goods to be sold on eBay will cut the online accounts by more than half! 

I think we will still be looking at opening a B+M shop as we were gonna do it anyway and if anything that may be brought forward due to the new terms and tiers system. We need to look at the costs involved to see how viable it is but from the conversation i had with GW this morning they will support you all the way, with many things.

All in all i dont think its a bad move from GW, and although people on a budget will have to look a bit harder to get a good price online (maybe) it will help the B+M stores to grow and more importantly survive just that little bit better as they will loose a lot of online compettion and get more supprot and reward from GW.


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Recently the 'Value added Service' discounts details have been 'leaked' along with some other news:



Templar Ben said:


> An individual who may or may not be a GW employee sent me the document. There are 25 tests or "ticks" and 18 will give a store the best price. In addition there are up to 10% available for volume and such.
> 
> They set a level for what you should sell for your location and if you double that it will trigger a GW audit to determine if you should have your distribution reclassified.
> 
> ...





neale said:


> I just had confirmed to me today about the new Games workshop policy regarding all new items being banned from sale on ebay and any other auction site as from the 1st July.





forthegloryofkazadekrund[/quote said:


> Just received the GW newsletter through the post, part of it states
> 
> "We would like to draw particular attention to stockists that re-sell our products via distribution channels that fail to meet our quality standards. As our terms state, we will not be able to supply any stockist that uses these distribution methods (i.e. located in non perminent premises or utilising internet auction sites) to re-sell Games Workshop products. "
> 
> ...


This is a little different to some of the earlier possible T&Cs but still seems to hurt small online businesses badly and completely finish the hated Ebay sellers. I am still not convinced that GW is doing this for all the poor little LGS owners, it seems to me to be an effort to concentrate online sales and point them towards the much maligned GW online site and shop, if not the hobby store itself.

As I understand it current trade discount is 35% with further breaks dependant on large volumes of sales, etc. There are also hints that GW will continue to work with big sellers that are good for their bank balance, so it seems larger online stores can still do fairly big discounts, but many of the smaller ones will probably fold. It also seems pretty heavy for those LGS owners who sell lots of product, only some of which is GW. I suspect lots of smaller shops will stop stocking it if they have to jump through hoops to get a reasonable price.


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Just to confirm if anybody is wondering; those discounts DO NOT INCLUDE VAT.

Awesome... Under the New Price change a box of Tacitcal Marines will cost approx. £16.10 at the 30% discount


----------



## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> Just to confirm if anybody is wondering; those discounts DO NOT INCLUDE VAT.
> 
> Awesome... Under the New Price change a box of Tacitcal Marines will cost approx. £16.10 at the 30% discount


Well that's just, fantastic. Goodbye regular GW buys. 
I'm praying that B&M stores will set up online stores now, because if they don't it will mean I will seldom be able to make purchases. 

I really do think this is a terrible idea. I'm all for supporting your local store, if we had one. The closest GW store is best part of 50 miles away, so thats a good portion of model money spent just gettign there! And FLGS, i though they were just a myth...

I realise that it's stores that get people into the hobby, and is a good place to build the community spirit. But for those of us who live this far, and further, from a GW. We need the online stores. Adn i can see this killing all the ones we love. 

I apologise for any incoherency in this post, I'ts hard to contain a rage like this!


----------



## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

GW, you fucked us on the deal. just try out lowering your your prices, see what happpens. that would be far more effective than INCRESING ALREADY TO HIGH PRICES! they should devote their time to giving us a reason to buy from their shops at extra prices, rather than just remove all the competition so it the only option to play the game is to buy their high prices. fuck you GW


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> Just to confirm if anybody is wondering; those discounts DO NOT INCLUDE VAT.
> 
> Awesome... Under the New Price change a box of Tacitcal Marines will cost approx. £16.10 at the 30% discount


true but thats only going to be the case if the trader in question has a trade price of 70% off rrp, under the new terms each trader will have a trade price thats unique to them based on various criteria.


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> true but thats only going to be the case if the trader in question has a trade price of 70% off rrp, under the new terms each trader will have a trade price thats unique to them based on various criteria.


I don't really understand what your trying to say...

Who's going to have 70% off RRP? I thought the max was 45% off?

And each trader wont be unique, theres 4 bands to fit into.


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

I am going to ask an odd question...
do NOT, anyone, take offense to this..I am not picking on any country.
Is there a lack of FLGS's in the UK?
reason I ask is, most of the people that jumped my shizzit after my initial comment are from the UK. a number intimated that there are not stores close by, or the stores they frequent are not particularly pleasant or knowledgeable (or a GW shop specifically, which is suspect for fairness).

I knew that the UK GW community was more 'basement/home' club driven by far than the US, but is there really that much a dearth of FLGS's? 

In the US, though not flying out of the woodwork, there seems to be alot more. (barring places like Alaska). 
I know where I am, I can find 3 good INDEPENDENT stores that support GW (not exclusively) and provide regular tourneys, 8+ table space every weekend, and hobby events constantly within 40 minutes of each other easily. (note that these are the kinds of stores that get hurt by deep discount internet sales, which is why I defended the move as I did)
I knew that we were more store driven by far, but I didn't think it was that different. Am I reading something wrong?


----------



## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

i think bits and kits is trying to say that its only true if the online store has a 70% trade price so 30% off. 

but its unlikely they will be able to give that as they are going to get shafted.

what pisses me off is it would cost me £19.95 for a box of emperors children from a store and they are £14 online. £6 i a piss take of a store mark up.


----------



## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

Exitus Acta Probat said:


> I am going to ask an odd question...
> do NOT, anyone, take offense to this..I am not picking on any country.
> Is there a lack of FLGS's in the UK?
> reason I ask is, most of the people that jumped my shizzit after my initial comment are from the UK. a number intimated that there are not stores close by, or the stores they frequent are not particularly pleasant or knowledgeable (or a GW shop specifically, which is suspect for fairness).
> ...


retail space i a lot more expensive in the uk, most lgs are not going to be turning a huge profit, they tend to be fairly small and have no reason to put up with kids playing games in there stores. 
even the Gw in swansea, quite a big town/city only has space for 3/4 tables. 
also the market tends to be under 15. cause in this country your "gay if you play wiv toy soldiers innit brev"

sad but true.


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Angels Of Flame said:


> what pisses me off is it would cost me £19.95 for a box of emperors children from a store and they are £14 online. £6 i a piss take of a store mark up.


really, what world do you live in? have you any idea of the costs involved in running a business.....you dont have to answer that as the answer is already pretty obvious. heres an example though

if a shop has 1 guy working there and he's getting paid £40 a day and the rent plus bills comes to £35 a day [thats a conservative estimate based on 10,000 a year rent on an off highstreet smallish unit]. so £75 a day costs....conseratively. 

so would need to sell 13 boxes, or make £260 a day, before making any profit. Also Bearing in mind thats operating profit and if he wants to replace that stock then the money has to go straight back into getting more stock in. 

Many retail business including hobby shops only make a real profit over the christmas period.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> I don't really understand what your trying to say...
> 
> Who's going to have 70% off RRP? I thought the max was 45% off?
> 
> And each trader wont be unique, theres 4 bands to fit into.


sorry i meant "of" not "off" ,too many f's

as for these "bands" you speak of, do you think the likes of hobbycraft and toy world world will be getting a worse discount than say a little indie who has a few meters of products and a painting table and some posters in the window?


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> sorry i meant "of" not "off" ,too many f's
> 
> as for these "bands" you speak of, do you think the likes of hobbycraft and toy world world will be getting a worse discount than say a little indie who has a few meters of products and a painting table and some posters in the window?


Thats a good point... I was thinking GW are intending to leave us behind in favor of chain stores like hobbycraft and toymaster. I thought they had their lense over Woolworths as well (but, thats not really possible now)

@ Exitus, there really is a lack of FLG's in our area, I've not really seen any in other UK areas though I can't say I was looking for them.

Massive indie stores just aren't an option over here, take Legions from Pittsburgh (spelling?), Amazing and large as it is, it just wouldn't survive over here.


----------



## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

The max discount is actually 55% off


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Exitus Acta Probat said:


> I am going to ask an odd question...
> do NOT, anyone, take offense to this..I am not picking on any country.
> Is there a lack of FLGS's in the UK?


I can only answer for areas I have lived in but no there aren't many FLGS or indeed LGS generally. As CH points out retail space is more expensive in the UK than the US, so the shops that do sell models (in a general RC, airfix, etc, sense) tend to be rammed from floor to ceiling with product and have no space for tables.

In my albeit geographically limited experience it is much more normal to play at your local GW if you have one, a gaming club run in a back room of a pub or in a community centre or indeed play at a mate's house. There isn't the option to wander in to a FLGS and set down for a game as they just don't exist locally. This may well explain the UK posters annoyance at the concept of pay more to save (somebody else's) LGSs.

My personal opinion on the whole support your store thing is that store should give its customers a reason. If it can't match the discount of online stores then have other selling points. Charge a small fee for table time (like most gaming clubs have to) and waive the fee if you buy product on the day, supply food and drinks during games nights, offer a loyalty scheme for some discount, run raffles where each paying customer has a chance to win a tank, etc, _ad nauseum_. It doesn't matter what the specifics are really, as long as they have a selling point.

If I had an LGS and it expected me to pay full whack for no benefit whatsoever then it would be shit out of luck. If it had good reasons to use it then I might be willing to pay a little extra, after all 25% off plus postage isn't 25% off any more is it, so online sites haven't got quite the stranglehold that some make out. If some stores can offer 20% off without postage then they are pretty competitive until you buy a massive amount of product in one go.


----------



## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Exitus Acta Probat said:


> Is there a lack of FLGS's in the UK?


a severe lack of them, I knew of only one in london that closed last year due to high increases in ground rent, I am only aware of 1 in scotland and none at all in wales


----------



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

if they gave 20% off in a store they would have to sell an enormous amount of product. with the example i was using above they would have to sell £600 a day to break even assuming they have very minimal, consevative costs


----------



## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

i think theres one or 2 gameing stores wothin 20 odd miles of me, but only one has a gameing area that i know, the others are just too small to have tables set up for any form of gameing


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

I knew my viewpoint was a little skewed by the reactions of people here, but I didn't realize it was quite all that.
I know that we don't have a 'store on every corner' here but I have never had an issue finding a store that was indy that didn't at least support (insert my favorite game of the time here) with some play space.
Most stores have a frequent buyer program (stamp cards...etc etc) but the big upside has always been the club nights/leagues/hobby nights/tourneys. I can go to 4 different RTT's in a 2 month period without getting further than 35 minutes away. Not to mention the weekly play. 
So, yeah, they offer good tables, good space, usually cheap snacks and stamp cards and of course events space and time. 
I suppose these are things I shouldn't take quite for granted anymore :shok:

So of course, I see online discount sellers as a threat to my 'way of play', whereas you guys see it almost as a necessity to your hobby survival....

(note: when I was running my own store, nothing ired me up more than to hear people telling me the 'deal' they got on ebay, or the 25% off they got from blah blah, while I was making that space for them, and running those events etc etc....so I was doing all those things for my customers to keep em, and getting undercut while paying rent for them to play...which is why I do support this kinda thing. but now I understand a helluvalot better the other side of the pond)


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I think the main problem with all this is that GW is an anomaly,which ever way you look at them they basicly defy the norm.

they design, manufacture and retail there own products including everything required to play the games, most manufactures sell to distributors who then sell to retailers. its very rare you might buy something direct from the actual manufacture from the manufacture retail chain.

they dont advertise (in the uk anyway) they realy on word of mouth,which is the most successful form of advertising but its slow.

they dont do sales or promotions of any kind,they dont use any kind of hook to get people in to stores and keep them coming back,could use a loyalty card of some sort.

their products are considered geeky/nerdy and gay by alot of people out side the hobby,from the outside looking in its a very strange world and black shirts screeming whaaargh on a saturday afternoon does nothing to change that. 

products are expensive,take alot of work before you can use them and new stuff takes bloody ages to be released 10 plus years in some cases.



Its a wonder they are still around to be fair


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

jigplums said:


> if they gave 20% off in a store they would have to sell an enormous amount of product. with the example i was using above they would have to sell £600 a day to break even assuming they have very minimal, consevative costs


Quite so, but my 20% comment was based on people saying that they visit shops that do offer just that discount and I have no reason to disbelieve them. I would imagine they link it to some sort of loyalty scheme, or perhaps it is only offered by a select few stores, possibly not in the UK (I don't remember who originally posted it, or even on which forum! ).

However the point remains if some shops can offer discounts and still survive then those that say it is impossible must be doing something wrong, surely? I find it interesting that GW ostensibly appear to be asking their buyers to become more like a GW store, with the tables, staff help, intro games, etc, when we all know that GW itself has admitted that their stores are loss makers for the most part. I seem to remember in this thread someone posted that GW stores generally only make a profit at Christmas, in which case I find it hard to believe that shops will jump at this opportunity.


----------



## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

Frankly, distribution has been my biggest beef with them for all these years. 
Typically, distributors get about 60+ish % off and then charge 50-ish % to the retailer, who in turn has about a 10% 'margin' to play with for competing sales/product shrinkage/promotion etc etc etc.
GW pays (in the form of discount) nothing to distributors (if they even really use any anymore), and in fact sometimes charged them more than my own store (Alliance comes to mind here, I believe they were getting 40% when I was getting 48%).
every percentage point has an almost exponential impact on profitability, and theirs is PURE! straight from their manufacturing to our retail stores, no middle man (so to speak).
No one else has really managed to make that model work in the gaming industry, though Battlefront is coming close.
Overall impact in the states though, has been a decrease in many game companies discount margins. People like WOTC/WIZKIDS(now defunct) etc, have been taking a percentage here and there until the industry standard has settled around a 45% margin instead of a 50% margin with incentive bumps for pre-ordering/large orders.
This is where they have been s#its (not by trying to manage online sales.
for stores that support the hobby to high levels, that has to be managed somewhat) it's the 'you'll pay it, or someone else will carry it' mentality that they've managed to get away with for years.
Unfortunately, that's the fault of their customer base...and THEIR customers are the actual B&M stores. At least in the US, the greater majority of them either are a)divorced from the reality of it (it's a part of the store's profit, and they are losing sight of the forest through the trees), or b)they are little hole in the wall operations that think 4% profit on a low yield industry will get them through retirement (and seeing as how no one that really jumped on this particular bandwagon is quite ready to retire yet, THAT particular 'review' is years down the pipe).
Don't think I LOVE GW, I know them to be the money grubbing (expletive deleted)'s that they are. 
anamoly? yes!
pirates? yes!
unfortunately, they make the best toy soldiers out there....


----------

