# What If The Emperor Failed?



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

What would have happened if the Emperor would not have killed Horus and the Emperor died?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Then chaos would rule four hundreds of years until Horus grew depressed and destroys all/ most of humanity, weaking chaos for millenniums to come.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Then chaos would rule four hundreds of years until Horus grew depressed and destroys all/ most of humanity


Assuming those bloody Xenos were both speaking the truth without too much spin and that their foresight wasn't buggy. Say, by one of the Chaos gods hoping Horus would win ?

But back to the OP, we really don't know.

On one hand, the Imperium gets boned without someone manning the Astronomican. The funny thing would be if one of the Primarchs had to man the position. Maybe Corvus or Leman Russ wouldn't have disappeared if they had a serious, life-or-death responsibility.

The question of what Chaos would have done...Maybe they would have stayed united under Horus. Maybe they would have fragmented still.

Depends on what GW really wanted.

Regardless, Terra wouldn't have fallen...probably. The other Loyalist Legions would have been hours away. Still Malcador was at his end when the Dorn hooked up the Emperor. Without someone to lead the light, perhaps the Loyalist fleet would have been lost in the Warp? That would certainly had turned things around.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Well considering that's the only mention of what happens if the emperor lost then it is GWs stance. And also because they haven't contradicted it.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

hailene said:


> Regardless, Terra wouldn't have fallen...probably.


The Imperial palace was within hours of being breached, Malcador was about spent, and there was a giant tear in reality to the warp withing the palace. Terra absolutely would have fallen; of the five major figures on Terra, three are now dead (Emperor, Sanguinius, Malcador) and the remaining two are cut off from each other (Dorns still on the Vengeful Spirit with an alive and kicking Horus after all.)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Then Chaos would have won, the Ultras would have retreated to their corner of the galaxy to set up resistance. It would have been fragmented elsewhere and rapidly overrun by the combined might of the ruinous powers.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

In what way would Chaos have won the battle of Terra even if Horus killed the Emperor? Guilliman was inbound, with Russ and the Lion close behind if memory serves.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's the whole thingy about the Golden Throne. That with Horus sitting on it would be bad no matter the reinforcements coming.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Chaos could turn up anywhere... imagine them getting loose into the Emperor's Imperial Webway.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Karthak said:


> In what way would Chaos have won the battle of Terra even if Horus killed the Emperor? Guilliman was inbound, with Russ and the Lion close behind if memory serves.


There would be the psychological effect on the loyalists, that they had arrived to late and had failed to stop the traitors from defeating the Emperor.

Russ was already hard to work with, imagine what his strategy and tactics would have been in the wake of something like that; and how much it would muck up anything attempted by the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.

Also take into account the forces that would be arrayed against the arriving loyalists. With the Emperor and Sanguinius dead and Dorn effectively trapped, the command structure and defenses of the Terran forces were shattered. The traitor forces would have been able to withdraw elements in order to engage the newly arriving threat.

Keep in mind that with the Emperor dead, the Sons of Horus don't turn tail and flee, meaning the remaining traitors are not left to the guns of the newly arrived loyalists.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Well considering that's the only mention of what happens if the emperor lost then it is GWs stance. And also because they haven't contradicted it.


I don't think the future proposed by the Cabal is GW's stance, simply the plot tool they use specifically for the turning of the Alpha Legion. The irony of the Cabal is their vision is the same bill of goods that Chaos used to sell Horus on turning traitor, implying that the Cabal were the unwitting pawns of Chaos the entire time.

The only other alternative I've been able to come up with is the Cabal hiding the third way they foresaw... that by not pushing/supporting the Heresy to develop, a triumphant Emperor bestrides the galaxy and crushes all in his path, including both Chaos and all the xenos who make up the Cabal. In which case, the Cabal was trying a desperate move to defeat both humanity and Chaos in one fell swoop... sounds like the Eldar to me.

Related to the OP, I do think the Chaos Imperium would relatively fall apart sooner or later, but not in the utterly destructive way the Cabal foretold. Just enough that the Nids and/or the Necrons would completely waste the remanants of humanity without too much trouble.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The Chaos Imperium would devour itself from within. They can make the awesome stuff, but the boring and practical stuff they must steal. They don't grow food, they don't do the boring stuff, they are all jockeying for power. That system would fold, even the IOM is better than that.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> The Chaos Imperium would devour itself from within. They can make the awesome stuff, but the boring and practical stuff they must steal. They don't grow food, they don't do the boring stuff, they are all jockeying for power. That system would fold, even the IOM is better than that.


.....I have to agree with that. Some of the weaker one's would be forced to farm, but you would have a weaker industry with chaos than Imperium


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

locustgate said:


> .....I have to agree with that. Some of the weaker one's would be forced to farm, but you would have a weaker industry with chaos than Imperium


Why? During the Age of Darkness the worlds that swore allegiance to Horus didn't suddenly devolve into degenerate worlds of chaos and barbarism. Many of them remained the same; agri worlds continued to produce food stuffs and crops, forgeworlds produced product, etc.

If Horus had won than the Imperium he inherited might be weaker, because he would not have had the same number of production worlds at first; but he could very easily ignore those worlds still Emperor loyal for a time and either trick them or force them to join his empire (leave those worlds unprotected, let them see that they need the protection offered by Horus.)


In the aftermath of the Heresy and Scouring, there were likely very few worlds put to the sword. Small groups of people, those in charge, on the other hand, they were the ones who shifted masters. After all, whats the difference between one distant figure and another to the everyman?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

No it's stated in fluff. The people under the yolk of the Ruinous Powers are very oppressed and they often fail to make food and such. That's Chaos, it's the will of the strongest, and you can think one billion worlds all ruled by the strongest and all failing to cooperate. That would be more doomed that the IOM already is.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It in some ways would be the death of humanity. Seeing that human beings are not able to breed due to the influence of the warp. Then again, time flows very differently in the warp, so its possible that many humans would not suffer from old age.

Lets say Horus had won. This would essentially be a reformation of the Imperium. The human race start dieing off really slowly but they would have been able to destroy their enemies. In short it would have made the Imperium mightier than it would have ever had been... but at a price of a slow and miserable extinction.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> No it's stated in fluff.


What fluff?



> The people under the yolk of the Ruinous Powers are very oppressed and they often fail to make food and such.


The people under the yolk of the Imperium are incredibly oppressed and yet their production is equally incredible. The two aren't really related, an oppressed populace can be forced to work and a free populace can find reasons to work.

The Consanguinary (the enemy in the Gaunt's Ghosts series) is a system of worlds all under the sway of the Ruinous Powers. It has lasted (IIRC) for a couple centuries at this point and doesn't show any signs of going anywhere of it's own accord. Despite being on the losing end of a war for several decades and suffering at least one traumatic change in leadership it hasn't fallen apart or fractured beyond control. 

Ultimately Chaos is more a religion than a political structure, and as with most religions it can be allied to any successful political structure that wants it.



ckcrawford said:


> Seeing that human beings are not able to breed due to the influence of the warp.


1) Do you have a source for this? I've never heard anything explicit about humans living in the warp before so this is interesting.
2) While the warp rift opening in Terra would likely swallow up a significant portion of the Imperium there would still be large swathes of it that were no more warp affected than before.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The key to chaos is selfishness, that's why they struggle, and breeding in the warp only gets you mutants. And mutants are not a good thing. Also according to BFG Battle Field Gothic the Chaos raiders must often steal Imperial freighters because the warp warp their ships. That's fluff as far as I'm concerned and if you want the source, go for the Games Workshop-site itself and look up BFG. It's all there. Plus food warps in the warp, so that must be replaced unlike you want to eat mutated beef and such. Again BFG. Go check it out. And yeah I'm lazy, but I at least sited where you can check it out. Just read the Chaos-sections of it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> The key to chaos is selfishness, that's why they struggle,


Selfishness or self-empowerment? Sure Chaos only really looks out for number one but then so does capitalism and countries run just fine on it. Chaos wants you to embrace who and what you are and strive to better it, those are good things certainly better than the Imperium which wants you to recognize your own insignificance and serve anyway.



> and breeding in the warp only gets you mutants.


Just being in the Eye is enough to make you mutated. I was more wondering if ckcrawford had a source I could read about Eye based populaces.



> And mutants are not a good thing.


They can be. Ogryns and Ratlings both have very useful skills (and are mutants) and mutations can give loads of other useful abilities. Obviously they don't have to be helpful but they equally aren't certain to be bad.



> Also according to BFG Battle Field Gothic the Chaos raiders must often steal Imperial freighters because the warp warp their ships.


My understanding was the piratical life-style was due to them not being able to fuel and arm their ships due to production problems, rather than their ships being warped. Indeed I'm pretty sure I've seen examples where the warped nature of a vessel actually reduces it's fuel and ammo requirements (I'm gonna say _Storm of Iron_ and maybe one of the Dark Creed books, can't remember for certain...). The lack of fuel and ammo that Chaos armies suffer from (the Traitor Legions have the same problem) is more due to the changing nature of the Eye and their limited holdings preventing them from producing much themselves. Both problems get solved basically immediately if they get lots of Imperial territory.



> Plus food warps in the warp, so that must be replaced unlike you want to eat mutated beef and such.


Everything warps in the warp. Though of course you can't actually live in the warp (unless your name if Draigo and you are an abomination against fluff). You can live in the Eye which does still have the mutation problems but if you don't have to live in the Eye (because you didn't lose the civil war but rather won it) then you don't have to worry about it.



> Again BFG. Go check it out. And yeah I'm lazy, but I at least sited where you can check it out. Just read the Chaos-sections of it.


That's actually good for the stuff you just posted but I've read most of the BFG stuff and I definitely haven't seen anything in there about the inability of Chaos worshiping planets to produce food for themselves (indeed there isn't much about planets at all, it being a book about spaceships).


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> (Dorns still on the Vengeful Spirit with an alive and kicking Horus after all.)


Is there any lore out there that states this besides the recent novels? Also is there anything telling us the current location/area where Horus and Dorn might be within the Warp (or space)?



darkreever said:


> During the Age of Darkness the worlds that swore allegiance to Horus didn't suddenly devolve into degenerate worlds of chaos and barbarism. Many of them remained the same; agri worlds continued to produce food stuffs and crops, forgeworlds produced product, etc.


While this is true I feel the eventually the oppressive yolk of Choas and the madness that consumes them would destroy these worlds and either drive them to dictatorial slavery or absolute destruction of the population. Many planets mentioned inside the Warp and others under the control of Choas (Blood Pact in the Sabbat Worlds for instance) are described as hellish places where people wake, work, and sleep. Some describe Forge Worlds that are runned more by daemon engines and less by manual labor.

The question I'm asking here is while they wouldn't necessarily drop dead, would Horus be able to upkeep his Army/Navy with the methods used by Choas and the Dark Gods?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

No you are wrong MEQ, it's directly stated in the fluff that the merchant fleet of the IOM is the reason why the Chaos-fleet subsides, and the planets within the Eye of Terror. Without it it would crumble. It's all there in the fluff. And capitalism isn't just about numero uno, I wouldn't compare Chaos to any known political system, Chaos is egoism taking to 11, capitalism ain't. Plus food is impossible to grown within the EOT, which means famines will strike. That's Chaos, it's all bad, nothing good about it.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Selfishness or self-empowerment? Sure Chaos only really looks out for number one but then so does capitalism and countries run just fine on it. Chaos wants you to embrace who and what you are and strive to better it, those are good things certainly better than the Imperium which wants you to recognize your own insignificance and serve anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> They can be. Ogryns and Ratlings both have very useful skills (and are mutants) and mutations can give loads of other useful abilities. Obviously they don't have to be helpful but they equally aren't certain to be bad.


You want a look of a civilization based on looking out for #1 I give you this Hint









I believe you was talking about unstable mutations, which are never good in the long run. Stable mutations can be good or bad.

Chaos is called chaos, because IT.IS.CHAOS. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Plus food is impossible to grown within the EOT, which means famines will strike.


I wouldn't be 100% sure food isn't growable...although most of the food, would cause side affects.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Is there any lore out there that states this besides the recent novels? Also is there anything telling us the current location/area where Horus and Dorn might be within the Warp (or space)?


That was about directly after the Emperor failed to kill Horus. Dorn was on the ship at that time, that's how he got the body back, so if the Emperor died Dorn would still be there. What happens from there is anyone's guess.

Currently he's dead though.



> Many planets mentioned inside the Warp and others under the control of Choas (Blood Pact in the Sabbat Worlds for instance) are described as hellish places where people wake, work, and sleep.


Many places within the Imperium are described as hellish places where people wake, work, sleep and die. The worlds of the Consanguinary that we've actually seen are all recently conquered war-zones run by a military trying to bleed everything out of the planet before they have to give it back, they're not a good picture of any kind of stable government but that's not Chaos' fault (the Imperium's done much the same when in similar circumstances). The longevity of the Consanguinary suggests that at it's core its got a very stable system of government.



Beaviz81 said:


> No you are wrong MEQ, it's directly stated in the fluff that the merchant fleet of the IOM is the reason why the Chaos-fleet subsides, and the planets within the Eye of Terror.


I know that the Traitor Legions only stay up and running because of the Imperium, I said that (I questioned _why_ that was the case but I agreed it was the case).

I also pointed out that the Traitor Legions only reside in the largely uninhabitable Eye of Terror because they had to flee there after loosing the war. If Horus killed the Emperor and Chaos won then they wouldn't have to flee there and could live wherever they wanted. Thus, the fact that the Eye is largely uninhabitable is basically irrelevant for discussing the survival prospects of a Chaotic Imperium.



> It's all there in the fluff.


Please cite a fluff source that specifically addresses the government of a Chaos aligned planet in a non-Eye setting and shows it to be unable to support itself. I have not seen such fluff.

In contrast I will point to the HH series for several examples of Chaos aligned planets that function just fine.



> I wouldn't compare Chaos to any known political system,


Fair enough, the capitalism thing was a stretch. I don't think Chaos is a political system, and I think trying to think of it in those terms doesn't really do it justice. At it's most dogmatic Chaos is a religion but it's really little more than an idea. You can run basically any kind of government, and any kind of planet, under a Chaos system by doing little more than changing the names of the gods people pray to.



> That's Chaos, it's all bad, nothing good about it.


That's a very simplistic view of it, and a not very accurate one at that. Chaos has many good things about it, that's why it's so appealing to so many people and that's what makes it such an immense threat. Something that is purely and unambiguously *bad* can't possibly be seductive, yet there are fewer things more seductive than Chaos.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The problem is that Horus and Abbaddon want to expand the EOT to engulf everything (including Terra). Then nothing would remain. The ketchup-effect would happen. Pure and simple and your clothes would be soiled. Of course you can disagree with this one.... but it won't be wise for your clothes.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> The problem is that Horus and Abbaddon want to expand the EOT to engulf everything (including Terra).


Abaddon does but it doesn't seem to have been any part of Horus' plan, indeed Horus' awareness of the Eye appears to be rather minimal. The breach of the webway on Terra would destroy a significant portion of the Segmentum Solar but the Imperium is an absolutely massive entity, loosing one section (even one as large as the Segmentum Solar) wouldn't be the end of it.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

In regards to breeding and the warp; its mentioned in Soul Hunter, of the Night Lords trilogy, that the mortal crew has become sterile from continued time in the warp. Keep in mind though that this is not necessarily what happens to everyone in the warp, just an example of but one possibility.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Abbaddon's brilliant plan is to expand the EOT past Terra. That's like the Chaos Wastes past everything, so mutation and such is the rule, and what do you think would happen with Horus on the Golden Throne. That would expand the EOT past Earth, no question about it That much I was certain was confirmed in fluff.

And for Chaos not bad, Chaos is the perversion of the four basic feelings. Whatever drugs you are on MEQ I want some.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Many places within the Imperium are described as hellish places where people wake, work, sleep and die. The worlds of the Consanguinary that we've actually seen are all recently conquered war-zones run by a military trying to bleed everything out of the planet before they have to give it back, they're not a good picture of any kind of stable government but that's not Chaos' fault (the Imperium's done much the same when in similar circumstances). The longevity of the Consanguinary suggests that at it's core its got a very stable system of government.


Archon Gaur is only Archon because he's got the Blood Pact. Nobody else has an army even half as good, just rabbles of Cultists or small-but-elite forces. He also has a number of Chaos Space Marines on his side, as shown on Gereon. All other leaders are subservient, but as Sek builds up his own force to make a coup, the leadership's becoming less stable.

This wouldn't be the case with Horus - he's got a bunch of Primarchs, with their own entire Legions (including the Word Bearers, who are probably the largest traitor legion), all of whom didn't have qualms about rebelling once already. Included in this are the Alpha Legion, who if they truely believed the Cabal in _Legion_, will be working to fulfil the vision of Chaos consuming itself within a few bloody centuries. Added to the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who, while less experienced at fighting against Chaos than some other Legions, have a strong implication that they are trained to know how to kill Astartes).

Midnight


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Beaviz81 said:


> And for Chaos not bad, Chaos is the perversion of the four basic feelings. Whatever drugs you are on MEQ I want some.


Its bad, but thats our subjective interpretation, another interpretation, and the reason why so many find it so alluring, is because it offers immense power, immortality and anything your heart desires, albeit a perverse version, so yes chaos is bad, but its good in certain ways, thats why people are attracted to it.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm sorry but I don't think you can interpret Chaos as anything but evil. Even Nurgle are pure evil. There are no two ways about it. Chaos is all selfishness nothing more nothing less as getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed, just ask Hemingway.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Even if the Emperor would have been killed, nothing much would have changed.
At best, Sol, Segmentum would be in Chaos' hands till the Emperor came back.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Beaviz81 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't think you can interpret Chaos as anything but evil. Even Nurgle are pure evil. There are no two ways about it. Chaos is all selfishness nothing more nothing less as getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed, just ask Hemingway.


thats your own subjective interpretation, ask Lorgar what thinks Chaos is, he would say truth, the future, salvation.
When Nurgle gives his gifts, he sees them as exactly that ,gifts and blessings.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Explaining Chaos by the views of the worshipers or even one of the gods themselves is not the done thing if you ask me. Maybe we should go for Angron or Fulgrim to learn how to control our temper and desires. Mortation for bathing-routines, Magnus for advice of how to curtail your potential.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Beaviz81 said:


> Explaining Chaos by the views of the worshipers or even one of the gods themselves is not the done thing if you ask me. Maybe we should go for Angron or Fulgrim to learn how to control our temper and desires. Mortation for bathing-routines, Magnus for advice of how to curtail your potential.


Neither can you explain it from your own view point with that logic, the truth is simple, even the bad guys dont think they are bad, both sides believe they are justified and right and true and moral, because all those words are subjective, just like your interpretation.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> and what do you think would happen with Horus on the Golden Throne.


That's the driving question of this thread isn't it?

Horus' plan was not to extend the Eye. His plan wasn't even to consume Terra into a new Eye (though that would've happened anyway). We can't say whether the Eye would expand on its own given Horus' victory or whether Abaddon's plan requires him to do something else to expand it. Therefore you cannot simply categorically state that Horus' victory results in the entire galaxy being consumed by the Eye.



> And for Chaos not bad, Chaos is the perversion of the four basic feelings.


Chaos isn't the perversion of anything, it it the purest distillation of emotion there is.

The Imperium on the other hand is very much a perversion, the perversion of species survival into an oppressive and paradoxically suicidal regime.



MidnightSun said:


> Archon Gaur is only Archon because he's got the Blood Pact. Nobody else has an army even half as good, just rabbles of Cultists or small-but-elite forces. He also has a number of Chaos Space Marines on his side, as shown on Gereon. All other leaders are subservient, but as Sek builds up his own force to make a coup, the leadership's becoming less stable.
> 
> This wouldn't be the case with Horus - he's got a bunch of Primarchs, with their own entire Legions (including the Word Bearers, who are probably the largest traitor legion), all of whom didn't have qualms about rebelling once already. Included in this are the Alpha Legion, who if they truely believed the Cabal in _Legion_, will be working to fulfil the vision of Chaos consuming itself within a few bloody centuries. Added to the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Space Wolves (who, while less experienced at fighting against Chaos than some other Legions, have a strong implication that they are trained to know how to kill Astartes).


Oh I know that Horus isn't in the same situation as the Gaur, I was just using that as an example that Chaotic regimes are not doomed to self-inflicted failure. While Gaur's hold is tenuous at the moment it is worth noting that an Archon of one form or another has held the Consanguinary together for quite some time and even the transition from Nadzybar to Gaur was relatively peaceful and swift. And even then Sek is no more seditious than half a dozen of the Imperial commanders under Macaroth.



Beaviz81 said:


> getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed, just ask Hemingway.


That's a pretty nihilistic world view you have there. Personally I hold out hope that there is more to life than pain and failure. Chaos offers that possibility, the Imperium doesn't.



Beaviz81 said:


> Explaining Chaos by the views of the worshipers or even one of the gods themselves is not the done thing if you ask me.


Isn't it the most fair way to look at it? At the very least their opinions should be given some merit, as they are the ones who have actual experience with Chaos.



> Magnus for advice of how to curtail your potential.


Why is curtailing your potential a good thing?!? Is not the greatest thing about humanity it's potential to better itself, to strive for more and to achieve it? And it's worth noting that it wasn't Magnus' desire to learn or better himself that screwed him over it was his father's need to not share. A Magnus given free reign to master his powers but also the knowledge to know the risks and the guidance to avoid them is a Magnus that doesn't fall, and is all the more powerful for it.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> Abbaddon's brilliant plan is to expand the EOT past Terra.


I don't recall the fluff for this one, where'd you get it from?

Last I recall, Abaddons ultimate goal was to cast the Emperor from the golden throne, achieving what Horus ultimately failed to do.



Beaviz81 said:


> Whatever drugs you are on MEQ I want some.


I think you need to tone down the high and mighty attitude a little.



Beaviz81 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't think you can interpret Chaos as anything but evil.


And this is the major problem; you don't think chaos can be seen as anything but bad, theres no good in anything chaos does or offers. Thats your own interpretation, not everything thats been shown.



Beaviz81 said:


> Even Nurgle are pure evil.


That is a matter of perspective. We see the gifts of Nurgle as disease, decay, and rot but at the same time they offer strength, a freedom from pain, and immortality. Yes, from our point of view these things are perverted versions of what we would expect, freedom from pain by living in constant torment (ultimately overloading pain receptors until they no longer function), immortality by being brought back as a plague zombie.

Its not always the outward result that matters, but what the receiver feels they get from the gift or deal.



Beaviz81 said:


> Chaos is all selfishness nothing more nothing less as getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed,


And I suppose the pact made by Magnus, an eye for a legion, was a pact made in selfishness rather than the preservation of his sons?

What about Lorgar? Was making Angron ascend to daemonhood for something other than to save his brothers life?


Your so fixated on your one interpretation that you vehemently refuse to see anything else as even remotely possible.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought it was pretty dang clear to be honest, but okay, if you say so. Plus selfishness can include someone you love like how Magnus lost his eye and Lorgar made Angron to a demon, but then Angron was pretty much a psychotic killing-machine by the time they had came to that point.

Nurgle believes he is doing good with the diseases he is creating. That's a mislead monster. And lets see on the servants, how about Abbaddon find any goodness in that man. I dare you.

Khorne lets people who butchers be demons, Slaanesh does the same to sick rapists, Tzeentch balue evil schemers above everything else, and Nurgle well he just brings the plague, the survivors being so twisted that demonhood is the only way to go.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i'm convinced you are being purposefully obtuse.
and Abbadon loved his father (Horus), found one.
you Should read certain warhammer books, like Betrayer and The First Heretic, i think you have a poor understanding, if any understanding of the motivations behind the traitor legions and their Primarchs.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I shouldn't have accused you to be on drugs, I apologize for that one.

But you have no reason to believe I'm flaming.

I'm just stating that Chaos who are perversions of feelings of bravery, love, hope and I'm not quite sure what is Tzeentch, I say resourcefulness. They all spin in and get the evil done. And good job with finding a good point at Abaddon.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Plus selfishness can include someone you love


Then selfishness is indistinguishable from compassion and compassion is a good thing. 



> Nurgle believes he is doing good with the diseases he is creating. That's a mislead monster.


And so do his servants. They willingly and willfully embrace the gifts of Father Nurgle because they truly believe them to be good (or at least better) for them. That's not a mislead monster that's a monstrous looking good guy. 



> how about Abbaddon find any goodness in that man. I dare you.


Abaddon is resourceful, courageous, resilient, charismatic, intelligent, and many more. He has many virtues, his only real 'flaw' is that he doesn't fight for the Imperium.



> Khorne lets people who butchers be demons, Slaanesh does the same to sick rapists, Tzeentch balue evil schemers above everything else, and Nurgle well he just brings the plague, the survivors being so twisted that demonhood is the only way to go.


Khorne also rewards bravery and courage in the face of death, he rewards skill above all. Slaanesh simply wants you to go out and experience life, any new experience gains her favour. Tzeentch values creativity and intelligence, both of which are typically viewed as virtues. Nurgle frees those whose life is meaningless or painful and gives them new purpose and a freedom from pain.

Look beyond the ugly exterior and you'll see that Chaos has plenty of good inside it.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I go for BFG's description about Abaddon, he is a raging psychopath, the bad still outweighs the good.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Plus food is impossible to grown within the EOT, which means famines will strike.


Countless civilisations thrive within warp rifts (such as the Eye of Maelstrom), and have done for millennia. Producing food is not impossible within a warp rift, if it was these civilisations could not exist.



Beaviz81 said:


> That's Chaos, it's all bad, nothing good about it.


Check out the FAQ for some threads on whether Chaos is good or evil, there are some interesting ones. 



Beaviz81 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't think you can interpret Chaos as anything but evil. Even Nurgle are pure evil. There are no two ways about it. Chaos is all selfishness nothing more nothing less as getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed, just ask Hemingway.


Getting what your heart desires is a very bad thing indeed? So does that mean we're all evil?



MEQinc said:


> We can't say whether the Eye would expand on its own given Horus' victory or whether Abaddon's plan requires him to do something else to expand it.


Abaddon's plan to push the Eye of Terror to consume Terra is based on the principle of the Crimson Path. The whole intention of the 13th Black Crusade was to shatter the Cadian Pylons whilst causing as much bloodshed as possible in order to eventually sustain an indefinite daemonic incursion into realspace.


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