# Flying Monstrous Creatures - The New Overrated Black?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I'm just curious about why the hell everyone has lost their heads over Flying Monstrous Creatures?

Sure their rules are new and fancy, but they aren't exactly game winning. Everyone expects that they can use 5 FMC's and simply fly around Vector Striking the enemy to death, with the odd bit of shooting being included as well.

Vecter Strike is only D3 + 1 Hits, that's not exactly alot now is it? 5 MC's can't even wipe out 20 Termagaunts in a Turn via Vector Striking.

Then there is the swoop and glide options. If your swooping yes you can only be hit on a 6+, but you lose one of your shooting attacks, and you can still be shot out of the sky through massed fire.

I just do not see what the big deal is, and why 'Flying Circus' lists are popping up all over the place.

Flying for Monstrous Creatures Rules are a nice addition to Units like Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes and Flyrantsexisting profiles, and gives them a few neat options, but nothing that is game winning.

Yet people seem to have got it in their heads that FMC's will constantly be circling and decimating enemy armies while they helplessly try to shoot them from the sky, while you laugh maniacally. I just don't see how this is ever going to be the case.

For me, Flying for my Bloodthirsters or Daemon Princes is a primarily defensive tactic designed to get them out of harms way quick and to help them survive a round of heavy shooting. Other than that I still use mine as I always have (with the exception of taking on enemy Fliers too).

Anyone else agree? Or am I missing something?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

People getting excited about a new gimmick. This happens all the time really. Give it until the next codex release and we'll see ANOTHER new gimmick instead.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It's really meta choices, For Daemons Flying Monstrous Creatures will be popular as they're really you're best chance for downing Zooming Flyers with Vector Strike (Well for Blood Thirsters anyway as they're really the only ones strong enough to do much)


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Flying is a radical change in rules and some people view change as an edge; however this misses two points:

(1) Many opponents read the internet so could well go heavily anti-flyer;

(2) Probability beats desire.

I foresee a period of many rapidly changing "guaranteed victory" flying and anti-flying lists, followed by a return to balance as the most common internet list strategy.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Flying is a radical change in rules and some people view change as an edge; however this misses two points:
> 
> (1) Many opponents read the internet so could well go heavily anti-flyer;
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree, I have only started taking a Bloodthirster in an effort to counter the real Flyers that everyone and his mum is taking these days, not to take advantage of new spiffy FMC rules.

They are a nice addition, that open up a few tactics and/or gambits, but they don't influence my opinion of the model too much. In fact I'm considering dropping my Daemon Princes in favour of x3 Soul Grinders this Edition.



Aramoro said:


> It's really meta choices, For Daemons Flying Monstrous Creatures will be popular as they're really you're best chance for downing Zooming Flyers with Vector Strike (Well for Blood Thirsters anyway as they're really the only ones strong enough to do much)


Yep, this is my thinking too.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

The rules look fairly unfavorable to me. Mostly because of Grounded tests. Any time they get *hit* (that's hit, not wounded) by shooting in Swoop mode, they have a 33% chance of going splat and losing their mobility and almost certainly a wound. T4 creatures like the Parasite of Mortrex get insta-gibbed. 

Very glass cannon. Swooping is powerful but also extremely risky. I suspect these lists will get brought back to earth (pun intended) when people start reading and playing the rules properly. Flying MCs are good, but not dominant.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Yet people seem to have got it in their heads that FMC's will constantly be circling and decimating enemy armies while they helplessly try to shoot them from the sky, while you laugh maniacally. I just don't see how this is ever going to be the case.


Ran a thirster, fate, and a flying DP in my last game at 1850 vs a necron list with 3 flyers. That is exactly what happened. The thirster vector'd both doomscythes off the table, fate swooped over squads doing massive damage (and even boon'd a ctan). The dp passed 3/3 grounding tests, but was shot out of the air by turn 3. Nothing else in the list beyond fiends did real damage (fatecrusher list with 12 crushers, all they did was corner them in a corner when the game ended). After the game, my opponent said 'well now I know why you hate flyers so much, thats really annoying'.

Overpowered? no. Gimmicky? sortof, for now. People will adapt, more skyfire/flyers will surface. I don't think the flying circus lists will be competitive at all, because 1 failed grounding test and it's toasted (assuming he has units to pounce on it during the assault phase). As Dave T said, the internet praising and spamming FMC lists are just knee jerk reactions to new rules and trying to abuse them before people learn how to counter them. FMC are good to have, but centering your list around them and banking on them to do all the work isn't a good idea.


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

ohiocat110 said:


> The rules look fairly unfavorable to me. Mostly because of Grounded tests. Any time they get *hit* (that's hit, not wounded) by shooting in Swoop mode, they have a 33% chance of going splat and losing their mobility and almost certainly a wound. T4 creatures like the Parasite of Mortrex get insta-gibbed.
> 
> Very glass cannon. Swooping is powerful but also extremely risky. I suspect these lists will get brought back to earth (pun intended) when people start reading and playing the rules properly. Flying MCs are good, but not dominant.


Except the parasite is jump infantry... 
They make some of the MCs like the Bloodthirster a lot more threatening, if for no other reason that it can close with the enemy a lot faster when swooping.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> As Dave T said, the internet praising and spamming FMC lists are just knee jerk reactions to new rules and trying to abuse them before people learn how to counter them. FMC are good to have, but centering your list around them and banking on them to do all the work isn't a good idea.


Well I said it too, but I guess it wasn't as well spoken or something. 

This is a common thing when it comes to 40K advice on the internet that I've noticed. It's how we ended up with Draigowing becoming a thing, and how lists like Leafblower and Razorspam occur. The internet finds a list with no immediate counter and immediately assumes it's the best thing since a orgasm machine and hails this list. This usually continues until a FAQ fixes whatever was being misused (Conga-Lining Scarabs for example) or until something newer and shinier comes along.

Now granted, some people will continue to push that same "amazing" list. I mean Stelek (as an example because everyone knows generally who he is) still posts lists that have maybe 3 distinct units copy and pasted three or four times and calls them the best thing ever and the best way to win the game. 

Internet meta isn't about balanced lists or handling local meta or teaching people to play well (or even giving them ways to use whatever they want out of a codex. It's not a matter of power sometimes, it's a matter of helping people use things they prefer) and that's something that bugs me. It's one of the reasons I'm taking so long to work on the Sisters tactica (that and I need the Aeronautica book that I ordered today); I don't want to just tell people "take this, not that" but instead "if you like this, this is what it's good at and some ways you can equip it" so people can take advantage of their options to the fullest instead of glossing over something they like or have models for just because someone on the internet says it's bad and they should NEVER use it.

TL;DR: The internet is silly, and we need people to stop telling people what not to use but instead how to use it.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Well I said it too, but I guess it wasn't as well spoken or something.


Didn't mean to leave ya out there zion, I would of remembered your input if you didnt change your avatar on me 

The way I see it, the daemon codex is pretty shitty. Giving us some buffs in one way or another is all welcome. Of course, saying this to a sisters player is probably the equivalent of us opening presents on christmas morning while the SOB player sits outside in the snow staring in with a sad face.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> Didn't mean to leave ya out there zion, I would of remembered your input if you didnt change your avatar on me
> 
> The way I see it, the daemon codex is pretty shitty. Giving us some buffs in one way or another is all welcome. Of course, saying this to a sisters player is probably the equivalent of us opening presents on christmas morning while the SOB player sits outside in the snow staring in with a sad face.


Nah, we're dropping Melta bombs down your chimney.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

The Tyranid Flyers are overrated too. I'd much rather have a Tyrant with 2+ armor and Tyrant Guard than a Flying Tyrant.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

The one useful tactic I can think of is flying 24" then gliding and assaulting shooting units but you must always consider one shot that wounds and you will likely die a lot harder. Kind of like the Slaanseh chariots - great until you look at the small print.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I played against Daemons last week. He had 4 FMC's I had dispatched 3 by turn 3.

I'd shoot them, they fail the grounding test, shoot them on the ground and then assault to finish them off. 

Sure I had some really good luck but they really weren't quite the drama I was expecting.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

I had a crazy thought, maybe people are taking fmc's and flyers in general because they are... fun? 

I know, crazy huh?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Unforgiven302 said:


> I had a crazy thought, maybe people are taking fmc's and flyers in general because they are... fun?
> 
> I know, crazy huh?


They are certainly that!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Unforgiven302 said:


> I had a crazy thought, maybe people are taking fmc's and flyers in general because they are... fun?
> 
> I know, crazy huh?


I assume that's why normal people (aka people who don't just do what the internet tells them to do...so everyone basically ) are taking them, but I assume the internet (aka everyone who claims you need to do X to win) is pushing them as they new "best thing EVER" because it's new and they haven't learned how to handle it yet. :wink:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I admit I take a Bloodthirster and 2 flying Daemon Princes for my mono-khorne list.

I don't take them for vector striking since I think it makes them a waste of points. Rather they deepstrike down in swoop mode, run in shooting phase and then in turn 2 if they survive (quite likely to as well) then they switch to glide mode and assault. 

In short I use the swoop mode as added insurance to help the models reach their target (I.E. close combat) in once piece or one or 2 wounds lost at most.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Archon Dan said:


> The Tyranid Flyers are overrated too. I'd much rather have a Tyrant with 2+ armor and Tyrant Guard than a Flying Tyrant.


Ahem. 
*Oddjobs ode to the flyrant, part 1.* 

On the top tables in 5th shooty armies dominated. Tyranids couldn't compete in this field, so had to be clever with forcing so many threats on turn two that the shooty armies were instantly overwhelmed (in my case large stealer squads, gargoyles, ymagarls etc).

It looks a bit like this will be even more pronounced in 6th with the added difficulties in assaulting making this shootyhammer 40k- Nids will have to force the issue on turn one/two to have a chance. Big stealer squads find it impossible to get cover as easily as before, but the flyrant (or two) can take up the slack. A 24" move on turn one, with the corner of it's base finishing in area terrain/ruins (doesn't take dangerous terrain checks but nothing says it can't still get area terrain cover saves*) puts the pressure on early and supports the ymagarls/gargoyles/smaller stealer squads (in my army) looking to assault on turn two.

There are very few units that really want to assault the Flyrant (especially with biomancy buffs), but it's pretty easy to stay away from the few units that do. Even then they rely on you failing your 3+ test. even if you do, bear in mind that normal shooting still hits you on 6s.

Tons of st6 shooting is easy to combine with enfeeble (lot's of psychic rolls) to gut multiwound deathstars. Mobile shooting makes it easy to avoid the IC out in front. Additionally, two flyrants can be pretty effective at assault blocking if swooping (but you have to be facing the right way the turn before).

Basically, I currently have a semi for Flyrants.


*Feel free to tell me why this is wrong because it feels a little off. Not as off as the fisting Nids got through flyers/allies though.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

The new FMC rules have added alot to my deamons because the core of my army has always been winged deamon princes and stuff, it's just how I roll. I've not played many games yet but the swooping straight off the bat is a huge help. It means that I don't have to rely on deep striking crazy close to enemy units, now I can deep strike about 18 or 24 inches away, run forward 12 then next turn switch to glide, jump and assault. Much like what Stephen said. I'm not too bothered if they get grounded because hopefully I'll be too far away for them to assault and because I'm going for target saturation (I play with really unbalanced waves, normally all the mc turn up on turn 1) some are going to get through and cause trouble. Not really tried vector striking so I wouldn't like to comment heavily but it seems more like a handy little extra rather than something to base a list on.

TL;DR The new FMC rules have made my usual list a lot more interesting to play


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I will say that at least with Daemon Princes, S6 I5 AP2 A4 has proven quite effective against my Doublewing, and any other armies with small numbers of elite units. 

Plus the HoW and Terrify can be pretty wicked.


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## Ork Mad (Sep 17, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I admit I take a Bloodthirster and 2 flying Daemon Princes for my mono-khorne list.
> 
> I don't take them for vector striking since I think it makes them a waste of points. *Rather they deepstrike down in swoop mode*, run in shooting phase and then in turn 2 if they survive (quite likely to as well) then they switch to glide mode and assault.
> 
> In short I use the swoop mode as added insurance to help the models reach their target (I.E. close combat) in once piece or one or 2 wounds lost at most.





Calamari said:


> The new FMC rules have added alot to my deamons because the core of my army has always been winged deamon princes and stuff, it's just how I roll. I've not played many games yet but the *swooping straight off the bat is a huge help*. It means that I don't have to rely on deep striking crazy close to enemy units, now I can deep strike about 18 or 24 inches away, run forward 12 then next turn switch to glide, jump and assault. Much like what Stephen said. I'm not too bothered if they get grounded because hopefully I'll be too far away for them to assault and because I'm going for target saturation (I play with really unbalanced waves, normally all the mc turn up on turn 1) some are going to get through and cause trouble. Not really tried vector striking so I wouldn't like to comment heavily but it seems more like a handy little extra rather than something to base a list on.
> 
> TL;DR The new FMC rules have made my usual list a lot more interesting to play


so you think that FMC can swoop on the turn that they deep strike??

i thought that as they had to move a minimum of 12" that they couldn't (deep striking counts as moving but not a specified distance)!!

if you could just clear this up for me i would be very happy :biggrin:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Swoop doesn't work on DS since you can't make min distance requirement... but you can DS behind terrain and then fly off. Flying daemon MCs were nasty before, but now they are even quicker: drop them in safety somewhere, run into more safety and then go 24+2D6" towards your main target... after that you should be able to land and mush to your heart's desire.

I think the best FMCs to stay airborne are harpies, since they have decent guns and can drop spore mines onto a unit's head as they go (once)... while they are so easy to kill that and relatively poor in combat that you won't want to land much. Almost all others I would view swoop as being just a faster way of delivering them into combat.


I can't really see what the big issue with FMC is- other then moving fast they aren't that hard to down: just fire a few useless units at them to get a couple of hits... force a few crash tests and when they are on the ground (and likely taken a wound) smack them around with all the heavy stuff. I think units such as CSM rhinos with 2 TL-bolters up front would be great- 4 shots rerolling should give you a hit each time... 3-4 of those and you should have downed a FMC without wasting serious amounts of firepower.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Not going to be changing my Eldar list much, The shit tonne of Str6 I bring to the table helps deal with these swoopers.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Tim/Steve said:


> I can't really see what the big issue with FMC is- other then moving fast they aren't that hard to down: just fire a few useless units at them to get a couple of hits... force a few crash tests and when they are on the ground (and likely taken a wound) smack them around with all the heavy stuff. I think units such as CSM rhinos with 2 TL-bolters up front would be great- 4 shots rerolling should give you a hit each time... 3-4 of those and you should have downed a FMC without wasting serious amounts of firepower.


+1 This 

Makes me think that Psilencers might actually be a useful weapon nowadays.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Just remember grounding tests are one test from any one unit assuming it hit. RoF means nothing as long as you get one 6.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

gally912 said:


> Just remember grounding tests are one test from any one unit assuming it hit. RoF means nothing as long as you get one 6.


True but 6 goes at rolling a six are better than 1 go at rolling a six.
A lot of FMC are Daemons too so wounding on a 4+ isn't too shabby either.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

It just means you fire the high RoF, low accuracy, low strength units at the FMC while it's flying... then once its grounded you smack it with the heavy stuff.

Units that fire a couple of 'forgettable' shots will be awesome. Suddenly having 3-4 drop pods dropping in and pinging a FMC with snap shot storm bolters is pretty useful.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> It just means you fire the high RoF, low accuracy, low strength units at the FMC while it's flying... then once its grounded you smack it with the heavy stuff.


Being grounded doesn't remove the snap fire only restriction on shooting. It removes the jink cover save and allows you to assault the FMC. The lack of jink wont matter if the edge of your base is in area terrain, and most FMCs are super nasty in assault anyway (and backed up by buddies that want to be in assault).

But this ignores the main fault with your strategy- why is your opponent going to move these highly mobile creatures in such a way as to make life easy for you? In my case you don't have to deal with one FMC- you have to worry about two, and a couple of squads of stealers, and a squad of gargoyles and some ymagarls and.....you get the point. You are unlikely to have the firepowa to waste!


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## Ork Mad (Sep 17, 2010)

OddJob said:


> Being grounded doesn't remove the snap fire only restriction on shooting. It removes the jink cover save and allows you to assault the FMC. The lack of jink wont matter if the edge of your base is in area terrain, and most FMCs are super nasty in assault anyway (and backed up by buddies that want to be in assault).
> 
> But this ignores the main fault with your strategy- why is your opponent going to move these highly mobile creatures in such a way as to make life easy for you? In my case you don't have to deal with one FMC- you have to worry about two, and a couple of squads of stealers, and a squad of gargoyles and some ymagarls and.....you get the point. You are unlikely to have the firepowa to waste!


actually i think being grounded does remove the snap shot only restriction...




Magpie_Oz said:


> It's official !
> 
> 
> Good Afternoon Scott
> ...


this was posted a while by Magpie_Oz after he emailed GW faq


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

OddJob said:


> But this ignores the main fault with your strategy- why is your opponent going to move these highly mobile creatures in such a way as to make life easy for you? In my case you don't have to deal with one FMC- you have to worry about two, and a couple of squads of stealers, and a squad of gargoyles and some ymagarls and.....you get the point. You are unlikely to have the firepowa to waste!


Bordering on "my army is the bestest and will whip yours" style of childish crap... something too many of us gamers can fall into (luckily heresy tends not to be too guilty of it)... be a bit careful you don't cross that line.

My strategy is to use minimal additional firepower to maximise the effectiveness of the sorts of weapons that are effective against MCs but not against swooping FMCs.
Whether or not you have the firepower to stop a nid army is why you play the game... if you obviously did then there wouldn't be much point in actually playing the game, similarly if you have a shooting army which clearly can't stop the nids at range.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Flying Monstrous Creatures are a bit overrated, but they're still excellent. Hell, they were always excellent. They're a very good unit that's gotten even better. Nothing wrong with that. They're just not necessarily the best unit for every list.

Flying TRANSPORTS, however, cannot be overrated enough. They are ridiculously effective at unloading troops to grab objectives late in the game, while simultaneously dealing with other flyers. Choosing what to do if your opponent is keeping several flying transports perpetually in reserve until turn 5 (by leaving the board the same turn you enter from reserve) is now an essential part of every strategy now, especially in larger point level games.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> Bordering on "my army is the bestest and will whip yours" style of childish crap... something too many of us gamers can fall into (luckily heresy tends not to be too guilty of it)... be a bit careful you don't cross that line.


Don't be ridiculous- Heresy is massively guilty of it!

Trying to consider the unit in isolation is much less helpful than in likely battlefield situations. My point is that there are a lot of threats- most guns are better off shooting at one of the others to definately have an effect which significantly ups the FMCs survivability.

I qualified some basic tactics that mitigate for the flyrants issues and make killing them quite tough (would need to be for 260+pts). They take a lot of firepower, which isn't guaranteed to do anything, in a situation where there will be a lot of immediate threats on the board.

It's nice that people are still asking the GW sales people for their opinions on the rules and all, but most people recognise that they are pretty much making things up. Until an FAQ/Errata changes things I'll stick to what the rules actually say.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

"A FMC cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping."

"A Grounded FMC can be charged in the following assault phase"

They need to define Grounded for the rules lawyers, but it doesn't jive rules-wise that you can be Swooping and Grounded at the same time.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> "A FMC cannot charge or be charged whilst it is Swooping."
> 
> "A Grounded FMC can be charged in the following assault phase"
> 
> They need to define Grounded for the rules lawyers, but it doesn't jive rules-wise that you can be Swooping and Grounded at the same time.


Anyone who says you must snapfire needs to take grounding tests for every other time you hit that shooting phase. 

That's my solution for dealing with rules lawyers at least.

A Grounded FMC isn't Swooping. I don't know why people try to claim it is. The cover save had to be specified since it's a bonus that's applied until the next turn normally so it had to be explained that it goes away if the FMC is Grounded.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Zion said:


> Anyone who says you must snapfire needs to take grounding tests for every other time you hit that shooting phase.


From each different unit- completely correct.



Zion said:


> That's my solution for dealing with rules lawyers at least.


The rules are very clear. If you think they should be changed thats fine, but we are discussing what they actually say.



Zion said:


> A Grounded FMC isn't Swooping. I don't know why people try to claim it is. The cover save had to be specified since it's a bonus that's applied until the next turn normally so it had to be explained that it goes away if the FMC is Grounded.


No reason by logic that the FMC can't be both (swooping and grounded in game terms is defined in the rulebook, not the OED). If you really need a fluff justification: the tyrant is falling out of the sky while you are still trying to shoot him. The more you shoot at him, the less controlled he is and the harder he hits the deck at the end of the shooting phase. If you really want to apply 'common sense' all the shooting happens at once anyway, but please don't.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

OddJob said:


> From each different unit- completely correct.
> _
> Not correct. _
> 
> ...


Firefox crashed so I'm not retyping a wall of text for someone to not read and then try to argue with me about so here's the short version:

Flying Monstrous Creature is a noun. Gliding, Swooping and Grounded are all adjectives that describe it's current state. Just as Swooping and Gliding replace each other when you switch how you're moving a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that fails a Grounded Test becomes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It does not become a Grounded Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Magpie wrote a much more well versed bit on it here (it's from this thread). This interpretation was supported by GW Australia (as outlined in this post here).

Additionally I've sent this into GW to get added to the FAQ when it rolls around. We'll see if they do that soon as the FAQs are supposed to be here in September if the rumor mill is correct.


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