# Spears ?



## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Ive always been bemused by this question so i want to know what other people think. Most basic units in the game have the otion of bringing spears. Skeletons , clanrats , orcs , saurus etc.

Now these units autimaticly come with shield+ hand weapon (4+ save) , is the spear better?

In most cases this is 10 attacks with a 5+ save vs 5 attacks with a 4+ save.

So which is it , 10 attacks or a 4+ save? Obviously it is different per unit.

I imagine for units like skeletons its a must , as they can be reserrected so don't need the extra +1 to their save. If this is not the case what is the ratio od no spear/spear?


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

Really, this is very situational.

As you say, the ability for a unit to still have an attacking rank is critical in some situations, while the additional defense has often been proven to work wonders in preserving a unit.

Spears are great if you get to attack first (especially since I'm a High Elf player). You get to strike with a flurry of attacks, meaning more will hit the opponent, more will wound the opponent, and more attacks will be left unsaved. That means fewer enemies to strike back.

The Armor Save is great if your troops are otherwise rather weak and will be attacked first (either by ranged attacks, melee, magic, whatever). For units like Swordsmen, the extra save is almost invaluable. They posses a decent attacking ability, but their decent save is what makes them so invaluable to an Empire general.

I'm sure you can think of times when you can expect to attack first, or times when you can expect to be under a constant barrage of violence. Even in a single game this can come up. That's why you really need to consider the options and make calculated decisions to succeed. Or just go with what's cool. It's worked well for a lot of players, but it won't always yield anything truly competitive.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Against weak enemies spears are good, I also use them when the attacking enemy negates my save due to its own strength. Generally when I charge I use HWS, as I only get the first rank anyways and I'm hoping to break the enemy on the charge...


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Spears work better on the defencse hands down , shield/HW work best on offense as their bonus is not hindered by movement unlike spears.

I suppose the idea is to have a mix and go 3/4 depending on the army your using. maybe even 50/50.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

you can choose which weapons a unit uses when they attack, so if you have the pts give them all spears, and if they need it pull out the shields and hand weapons. the only way to work out when is practice realy.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I always look carefully against my opposing unit before i decide which combo to use,
If your charged by knights or monsters then the sheild/ hwp will make little difference so I'll opt to use their spears at least for the first round,
If I'm charged by skaven or some other weak troop then I'd probably try and keep the unit alive so opt for the hwp and sheild provided I have a unit that could support them quickly. 
If its a really weak unit then I'd probably try to cause maximum kills but there are few units weaker than Empire spearmen (that aren't green) 
Its all about working out which option will help you survive the combat wether its more attacks or more defense.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Dafistofmork said:


> you can choose which weapons a unit uses when they attack, so if you have the pts give them all spears, and if they need it pull out the shields and hand weapons. the only way to work out when is practice realy.


Yes that is an option , but obviously you cannot swap weapon in the same combat . But i suppose the idea of you charging = shield/HW and if you get charged = spears. Bascily what Neil said

still my main army is vampires (and soon TK's) , ive founf with them spears work well , as even if they die when they charge you can simply reserrect them next turn. Although disadvantage is that you are sort of asking for a skelly to get killed but meh.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Spot The Grot said:


> Yes that is an option , but obviously you cannot swap weapon in the same combat . But i suppose the idea of you charging = shield/HW and if you get charged = spears. Bascily what Neil said
> 
> still my main army is vampires (and soon TK's) , ive founf with them spears work well , as even if they die when they charge you can simply reserrect them next turn. Although disadvantage is that you are sort of asking for a skelly to get killed but meh.


Skeletons die anyways, I did a calculation in excel somewhere, iirc if you are fighting T4 units, you're better off with HWS if you're fighting T3 units better off with the spears, assuming you fight an opponant with a 4+ save. Generally I just use spears when defending HWS when charging, to try and get that critical break on the charge...


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## CoNnZ (Mar 28, 2009)

it really all boils down to what can have them. undead need to be cheap or you will have few units and so will be easy pickings. Same really for skaven. Saurus warriors should cause it give the unit an extra 10 attacks and they are very reliant


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Being a VC player Id say that spears aint never worth it on Skellies. They are simply too bad fighters, their sole and prime purpose in combat is to survive as good as possible. Gaining CR is done with static points and heroes that kills stuff:gamer1:

Fear only really counts when youre more US then your opponent. Making your models more expensive wont make that happen, rather the opposite...If you want infantry that actually can hurt things then get ghouls:wink:


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

For my TK, HW/S all the time. I am not relying on my S/T3 guys to do more than provide static res and tie someone up. I have other units to hit harder like scorps and giants. What I do want my skellies to do is survive as long as possible and having the better save makes sense. Now against some things like knights it does not matter since you lose your save either way. Then I am just happy I didn't waste the points on spears as I probably won't kill a knight anyhow with them being 2+ or 1+.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I have this issue with my skellies and I think spears are the way to go.

Quite often, skellies have asf for one reason or another. Extra attacks are therefore dead enemies and less attacks back. Nice. On top of that, I tend to have a lord with crown of command lurking somewhere, giving them a better WS.

On the other hand, armour saves can be taken away, and it's only one worse than sword and board in any case.


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## Imperial Anvil (Mar 9, 2009)

I'm having the same problem, however my problem is my Night goblins.

I always take spears with my Saurus warriors, but now a comment about not being able to attack with the second rank if the front is destroyed has me worried...

I've not encountered this before, and I can't see it in the rule book.

so with the gobbos ability to die quickly i would rather take the spears to get some attacks with the second rank over none at all. 

but if the front rank gets smashed..

that is if i can.. zomg help


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Question... why are spearmen unable to use their shield as well?
That makes little sense...


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## Mutants_ho! (Jul 3, 2008)

Listen anvil, DO NOT make the mistake of taking spears on goblins. If it is regular take hw/shield, if it is NG take hw/shield + nets if a character is in the unit of if it is a main fighting unit.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

The unit ive found that is very one sided is saurus warriors. Although a 3+ armour save is great if you set unit 6 across (unit of 18) then the unit is getting 24 attacks and it still gets a 4+ armour save with T4 meaning they can weather pretty much everything.

Although sometimes they can go for the old 3+ save if they really want to.


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## Azhrar (Jun 8, 2009)

Imperial Anvil said:


> I always take spears with my Saurus warriors, but now a comment about not being able to attack with the second rank if the front is destroyed has me worried...
> 
> p



that was an old 6th edition rule that all Sauri had. It is no longer in effect, so stab away :mrgreen:


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

Just remember that 10 str 3 attacks are still str 3 attacks. Unless you have a way of making spearmen more effective like fighting with 3 ranks with high elves, cauldron of blood with DE, or even asf in VC then spears are rarely worth taking. If you're unit is there to break units through static combat res then HW/S if they're there to win combat through body count such as saurus warriors, always take them.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Jester12 said:


> Just remember that 10 str 3 attacks are still str 3 attacks. Unless you have a way of making spearmen more effective like fighting with 3 ranks with high elves, cauldron of blood with DE, or even asf in VC then spears are rarely worth taking. If you're unit is there to break units through static combat res then HW/S if they're there to win combat through body count such as saurus warriors, always take them.


yer role and genuinly how the unit wins combat effect it. Clanrats and gobbos shouldn't have spears as they win combat by weight of number so you wanna keep those numbers so the shield/hw is definetly better.

If a unit is expensive really you wanna go spears as normally they are expensive becaus they have an impressive profile so take advantage of how good the unit is.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

I would personally take shield/hw for goblins/skellies. example: i was playing against an Orcs & Goblins army with my dwarfs, and my miners were attacked by some NG with spears. They attacked me 11 times (2 attacks with champ) and failed to score a single wound because of their crappy weapon skill/strength. My miners attacked and killed off an entire rank because of the NG's crappy armor. When using weak units like that with poor armor, take a hw and shield, as the extra attacks wont amount to much.


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

BloodAngelsfan said:


> I would personally take shield/hw for goblins/skellies. example: i was playing against an Orcs & Goblins army with my dwarfs, and my miners were attacked by some NG with spears. They attacked me 11 times (2 attacks with champ) and failed to score a single wound because of their crappy weapon skill/strength. My miners attacked and killed off an entire rank because of the NG's crappy armor. When using weak units like that with poor armor, take a hw and shield, as the extra attacks wont amount to much.


Miners would've negated hw/shield save anyways:wink:


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## GutCheck (Apr 28, 2009)

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but.. this is a point of some interest to me. 
I'm starting to plan my empire army and what to field. 
My gut reaction was to slap 2 units of 25 spear-men into my list, right off the bat. 
They would each have a detachment of handgunners and would represent my defensive baseline. It just seemed to be the best defense... a bristling wall of steel combined with a hail of hot lead. To me it says "Don't even think about it." 

BUT.. I can see your point; giving more armor for a unit you know is going to get charged or.. whose whole purpose is to defend. I suppose I could buy shields for my spear-men. 

Or... is this thought process too . . . . "40K"?


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

GutCheck said:


> Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but.. this is a point of some interest to me.
> I'm starting to plan my empire army and what to field.
> My gut reaction was to slap 2 units of 25 spear-men into my list, right off the bat.
> They would each have a detachment of handgunners and would represent my defensive baseline. It just seemed to be the best defense... a bristling wall of steel combined with a hail of hot lead. To me it says "Don't even think about it."
> ...


The spear question is a good one, and I don't think anybody has come up with a 100% this is the one and true way to go answer yet. In the case of Empire spearmen, my current thinking is that shields is the way to go. While choosing more bodies over shields is more effective from the perspective of preserving rank bonus and outnumber, the benefit of both of these is capped by the rules. Where the shields are superior is preventing you from giving up kills, thus taking points away from your combat resolution. A single additional armor save per round of combat, and the shields will have paid for themselves. The extra versatility to drop down to a 4+ armor save is icing on the cake.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

It's a case of mathshammer:

Let's say you're charged by orcs with choppas.

Orcs get 6 attacks, 3 hit, 2 wound with a -1 save.

If you use HW+Shield that gives you a 33% change of saving the wound:
= 1.32 Wounds Taken

If you use spears:
= 1.68 Wounds Taken

Retaliation:
HW shield you'll get 5 attacks back, 2.5 hits, 0.825 wounds and after his HWS you'll get about 0.4 wounds.

With spears, 10 attacks back (one is dead ^^):
5 hits 1.65 wounds, roughly 0.8 wounds after saves.

So in that case you're looking at aproximately the same amount of damage inflicted either way, really considering how woeful your spearmen are in combat.

Let's do the total Combat Rez:
HWS: Losing by 0.92

Spear: Losing by 0.88

In essence they will both give very similar results, both losing you the combat by 1, on average (rounding up).

If you face a T3, S3 enemy with minimal saves then it's naturally worth using spears as results will be higher, against tougher enemies HWS is more worth it, as chances of inflicting wounds yourself are very low (even a simple T4 usually makes spears not worth it).


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## Aldred (Aug 1, 2009)

With Empire, I use a unit of 36 Spearmen as i expect them to act as an anvil not a hammer. Large size means i expect to stall something long enough to get the use out of the spears. This is a wargame... why go defensive when offensive will do. There are reasons to use spears offensively. Six wide with re-rolls _(as provided within my army selection... spells, warrior priests etc.)_ and a champion and/or character can add up to 15+ attacks with re-roll to hit...

... but this is situational in regards to other effects the army can provide. I like to use them as a sponge and every-once-in-a-while you yatze!!!


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## astornfleshlay (Apr 1, 2009)

Can you guys please tell me where it says that you can't use a spear and a shield at the same time?

I don't see it anywhere in the rulebook.....and, as such (unless I'm proven wrong), I believe that this whole notion of not being able to use a spear and a shield is rubbish!

Please prove me wrong!


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

astornfleshlay said:


> Can you guys please tell me where it says that you can't use a spear and a shield at the same time?
> 
> I don't see it anywhere in the rulebook.....and, as such (unless I'm proven wrong), I believe that this whole notion of not being able to use a spear and a shield is rubbish!
> 
> Please prove me wrong!


You misunderstood. Handweapon and shield gives you a 5+ save, handweapon and shield gives you a 6+. Quite simply the shield benefit is higher with a HW, that's all.


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## astornfleshlay (Apr 1, 2009)

Uhm....what?


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## astornfleshlay (Apr 1, 2009)

Oh, nevermind
After assuming you meant "Spear & Shield 6+" vs "HW & Shield 5+", I looked up fighting with a hand-weapon & shield, and see what you mean.

Thanks for the clarification!
This could come in handy, as I actually didn't know about that rule


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