# Pre-Heresy Librarians



## Muffinman (Aug 31, 2009)

I was wondering which legions had Librarians before the Horus Heresy and the council of Nikea. I know that they forbid their use at Nikea but there must have been legions other than the Thousand Sons and Dark Angels who used them, (Im only at Fallen Angels. So Im not sure if it mentions anything or not in the later books.)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Pretty much all Legions employed the use of psykers/librarians. One of the notable exceptions however were the Death Guard.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

The Space Wolves despised psykers, calling them witches etc. But then in a funny twist of fate Russ used them anyway! he just called them 'rune priests' instead. Did someone fail to tell Russ that a psyker by any other name is still a psyker?

As CotE stated above. Most legion's did use psykers in some shape or from. With the exception of the Death Guard. Some legions that did use them more numerously then other legions were The Thousand Sons (obviously), the Dark Angels and The Blood Angles. I'm sure there are others. I remember in _Legion_ that the Alpha Legion used Non-Astartes psykers as conscripts in their warfare.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They didn't hate psykers. They hated sorcerers.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> They didn't hate psykers. They hated sorcerers.


psyker, sorcerer, witch... tomato, tomarto :wink:

From what i read in _A Thousand Sons_, The powerful rune priest that betrays Ahriman was a very powerful psyker. In fact, he was more of a 'sorcerer' than many of the Thousand Son warriors. He was just more 'discrete' about it. I guess it begs the question, whats the difference between a powerful psyker and a so called 'sorcerer'? I guess it depends on who's doing the name calling?


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## Muffinman (Aug 31, 2009)

So did the Alpha Legion And World Eaters use psykers??? I'm pretty sure I have a good idea about the rest just not them.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

as Gen.ahab says, they despise "magic" not "psykers" its a kind of double standard, but the things they didnt like was people who used psychic powers to directly effect their opponents (ripping someone in two with your mind, in example) the space wolves Rune priests are actually the "weakest" psykers lore wise, but rather they use their powers more shamanistically, useing it in conjunction with nature itsself, to split the very ground in half (JotwW) call lighting down to strike a specific person, to summon a powerful hurricane that can deal with a Large force, etc.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> useing it in conjunction with nature itsself, to split the very ground in half (JotwW) call lighting down to strike a specific person, to summon a powerful hurricane that can deal with a Large force, etc.


see to me, thats a sorcerer as well. The Space Wolves are very naive when it comes to using psykers and condemning them at the same time. How is creating a kine shield any worse than any of the things you have mentioned above?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Its the source of the power that is the determinate. The Thousand Sons were drawing directly from the dark gods and using daemons(creatures of the warp). They didn't hate all psykers, they hated what the thousand sons were doing, not the tool but the method.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Its the source of the power that is the determinate. The Thousand Sons were drawing directly from the dark gods and using daemons(creatures of the warp). They didn't hate all psykers, they hated what the thousand sons were doing, not the tool but the method.


Hang on, remember when Ahriman first met the Space Wolf priest (cant remember his name) in the warp (remember the space wolf priest saved him). They were both flinging bolts of pure energy at warp sharks in the warp. flying around in the warp and both being generally 'warpy'... is this not a Space Wolf using the power of the warp? and or, using the warp in general? come on...?

This is the reason i hate the Space Pups. I'd sit Russ down and tell him his stance on psykers is retarded if i could... then he'd cave my skull in with his fist and that'd be that.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well not that the source of the wolves power is great, its the warp. The difference is they use raw, plain old, warp power, not the power of the gods.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Well not that the source of the wolves power is great, its the warp. The difference is they use raw, plain old, warp power, not the power of the gods.


lolz, i edited my last post as you posted this, see that for an example of a Rune Priest flying around in the warp.

I dont really recall any of the thousand sons using the power of the dark gods? in fact until the very end, most of them just used the power of the warp for offence and defense. Just like the Wolves did to summon storms, lightening and crack the earth.

p.s. good debate going here!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The entire time they were being sustained by tzeentch. Also, Familiars are daemons.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The entire time they were being sustained by tzeentch. Also, Familiars are daemons.


But neither Magnus, Russ, The Thousand Sons or the Space Wolves knew this until Prospero was well and truly over.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Its called making a sweeping assumption and getting really, really lucky. Really they just thought their power was coming from some sort of tainted source and got lucky.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It was the Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, and White Scars who set up the Librarius Departments in the first place so it's likely that the Blood Angels and White Scars had a lot of psykers in their ranks.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> psyker, sorcerer, witch... tomato, tomarto :wink:
> 
> From what i read in _A Thousand Sons_, The powerful rune priest that betrays Ahriman was a very powerful psyker. In fact, he was more of a 'sorcerer' than many of the Thousand Son warriors. He was just more 'discrete' about it. I guess it begs the question, whats the difference between a powerful psyker and a so called 'sorcerer'? I guess it depends on who's doing the name calling?


I'd say the best example of the difference between the use of psychic power and sorcery is comparing puritan Eisenhorn with radical Eisenhorn. As for the Space Wolves, I'd say the key difference between them and the Thousand Sons were the fact that the TS used the Tutelaries (not sure if I spelled it right) which seemed to me to be some kind of daemon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> whats the difference between a powerful psyker and a so called 'sorcerer'?


Sorcerers generally refer to individuals whose powers have been amplified by daemonic pacts and who are dedicated to Chaos, or infact individuals who were initially not psykers at all, but through bargains and pacts (with daemons) have become able to wield warp energy.

Where as psykers just refer to anyone of a particular race who exhibits the ability to use psychic powers.



Muffinman said:


> So did the Alpha Legion And World Eaters use psykers??? I'm pretty sure I have a good idea about the rest just not them.


Yes they both did. Although the World Eater's butchered theirs during the Heresy when they dedicated themselves to Khorne.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Like has been said it's the method. The Wolves powers are fairly weak and controlled, drawn from the warp yes as are all powers. Difference is the Thousand Sons were using Chaos powers, not just the warp, they were using the powers from the gods themselves and all of them had a deamon alongside them. From my take Sorcerers are those that use psycic powers from the chaos gods and deamons. The Wolves just used the standard powers everyone else had. I can easily see the difference.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Like has been said it's the method. The Wolves powers are fairly weak and controlled, drawn from the warp yes as are all powers. Difference is the Thousand Sons were using Chaos powers, not just the warp, they were using the powers from the gods themselves and all of them had a deamon alongside them. From my take Sorcerers are those that use psycic powers from the chaos gods and deamons. The Wolves just used the standard powers everyone else had. I can easily see the difference.


'Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.' - _Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th ed, Page 6_.

The line between sorcery and generic psychic powers has always been blurred. We may be able to see the difference, but the Wolves of Fenris certainly couldn't. Even after Nikaea for example they were still employing the use of psychic powers they were just ignorant enough to believe that they were drawing such power from the raw elements of Fenris rather than from the warp. Hypocrites.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is only hypocrisy if you know of it, well it is but you know what I mean. If you arn't tought, how can you learn? They know now, but they didn't then and obviously the emperor knew they were using rune priests, but he didn't act. It would seem it was sanctioned.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 'Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.' - _Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th ed, Page 6_.


Doesn't this further back my 'claim' that The Thousand Sons were no more sorcerer's than the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves. Yes, the Thousand Sons drew upon the power of the warp to wield their magics. Yes they enslaved (well, they thought they did) small warp entity's (micro daemons). I'm not disputing the fact they were avid users of the warp and to some extent Chaos. What I'm arguing is that the Rune Priests also drew upon the power of the warp to smite their foes, just because they manifest their attacks in the form of nature doesn't counter the fact they drew their summoning power from the warp and in turn Chaos, just like the Thousand Sons did. When deciding what's a sorcerer and whats simply a psyker, it always come's down to the opinion of the person doing the name calling, in our case the Space Wolves labeling the Thousand Sons sorcerer's. Yet as far as i can tell, the only thing the Rune Priests didn't do compared to the Thousand Sons was enslave minor daemons. Just because the Thousand Sons were able to draw upon the power of the warp greater than most Rune Priest's doesn't discount the fact that Rune Priest's were in fact using the warp, and thus. Using Chaos.

Phew! I'm not sure i can argue my point any better than that. The evidence is there! it'll all comes down to how you perceive it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, chaos, but not direct powers of the warp Gods, which is what was sustaining the Sons. The warp may be chaos, but the gods are distinct entities of the realm.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, chaos, but not direct powers of the warp Gods, which is what was sustaining the Sons.


I think you'd be hard pressed to back that up with supporting evidence...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Thousand sons would have died without tzeentch. Done.


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## TheAbominableDan (Sep 16, 2010)

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy novels so this may have been retconned. But I started reading Angels of Darkness yesterday and the Dark Angel from the past seems to think that Dark Angels having psykers is crazy and evil.

Did they go back and change that so Dark Angels used them now?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

THis is just my personal Idea you understand but could the difference between a Psyker and Sorcerer be the Intent with which powers are used. 

There have been a few memorable Psyker's appearing in the Black Library novels Mephiston, Tigurius and Zahariel to name a couple of them. And all three seem to have been complete anathema to Daemons. They also seem to use the majority of their powers to project energy or super-charge their own combat abilitys. 

Sorcerers on the other hand seem a lot more willing to use the warp the affect solid matter, and remake their enironment and the beings in it to their own desires. 

So could that be the difference? Not the manner but the Intent? A Psyker uses his powers in the service of Mankind and a Sorcerer uses them in Service to either himself or the Dark Gods.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm still gonna stick with the whole 'pet' deamons things really. They even showed the Space Wolf rune priest them, he wasn't totally ignorant to the warp, im guessing he correctly summised it wasn't as pure and harmless as the Sons made them out to be


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The red sorcerers of Prospero used their powers for the good of the imperium, yet were branded heretics

I can't see how the thousand sons would have completely died without tzeentch, "1k sons" hints pretty heavily that tzeentch was the cause of the flesh change, rather than the cure, they attracted the attention of tzeentch and he cursed them so that they would eventually be his


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Barnster said:


> The red sorcerers of Prospero used their powers for the good of the imperium, yet were branded heretics


Not really. They claimed to be acting in the Imperium's best interest but apart from a very few cases they seem to have been feeding their own ego. 
The Council of Nikia is a good example of that. 
The Emperor, who should have listened too if Magnus was half as clever as he thought he was. ordered them to cease their use of Sorcery. Instead Magnus convinced himself that he knew best and the man who had yanked Humanity out of Old Night was wrong WRONG DO YOU HEAR! 

Actions Vs Intentions.


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