# missing primarches



## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

in everyones honest opinion what do you think happened to the missing primarches?


Ancient Tiel' a fier - note - This thread may reveal information from horus heresy novels, chiefly Legion. If you havent read it and dont want to know the secrets within then dont read on. Otherwise happy posting, thankyou for your time.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

are you referring to the 2 legions whose names are erased or those whose fates are unknown like Lemen Russ and Lion el Johnson?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

like leman russ and lion el johnson wat r u talking about? and of course hes talking about the 2 legions completely erased from imperial history and most of all their primarch's.

really theres nothing official just says erased from databanks or watevr... most ppl just come up with wat they think happened , and wat would make sense. there are alot of possibilities. i myself like to think one got too corrupted or was tempted by the chaos gods early on so therefor was a erased becuz he was a blemish on the great crusades so they just say he got erased, but watevr he did mustve been pretty bad since not even Horus was erased from the imperial archives.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

i kinda think the emperor might have a greater plan for them and have keep them hidden and they will be revealed at the hour of reckoning and finally defeat chaos and bring the galaxy to order. GW says the reason they didnt make them was so people could make their own legion based on them. i like to believe the former but i have my doubts.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

ah well I know from my own sources that lion el johnson was snatched up by the chaos gods and sent to an unknown time and place, (I think they sent him to a time after the collapse of the imperium), and russ just left and was never heard from again. Kahn is probably dead by now (how long do you think anyone, even a primarch, can survive fighting daemons on their own home turf?). 

Gulliman is in stasis recovering from a mortal wound (remind you of anyone?), and good riddance that guy sure was anal about rules and regulations.

All they ever found of Rogal Dorn was his hand but that is no confirmation he died. He could still be alive fighting the dark forces, he certanly was tough enough. 

Though I wonder if the blood angels will ever attempt to clone sanguinus, they have the technology and they certanly have enough of his blood, where is it all comming from anyway?

oh sorry, most likely they were never found and their reserved legions were assimilated into the others, or perhaps one was supposed to be the blood raven's primarch


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

If you read Legion in the Horus Heresy novel series, you get a possible idea of what the fate of the missing primarch(s) truly was. (Trying not to give much away with that..)


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

im pretty sure the loyalist primarchs are all dead! (or atleast might as well be), and its only a rumor that guiliman is healing. remind me of anyone? u mean the emperor who is rotting on his throne where he will eventually turn into dust and be reincarnated as someone else, but it would still throw the imperium into chaos and they only have so many enemies that would take advantage of that weakness like abaddon, tau, orks (who wouldnt even really no wat was goin on except that they started to win all of a sudden) :shok:, dark eldar raiders, Tyranids, and countless other renegades and heretics out there who would love to tear the imperium asunder! :so_happy: and it states that all of the primarchs were found and put with there legions which would lead to another better explanation than yours


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

thanks for not giving it away reever! im reading the serious and i havent quite reached legion yet. im on Fulgrim but i think that will be cool to find out. i would like to think one of the missing primarchs was the blood ravens. i dont know but it seems possible that the blood ravens were a contingent of 1000 sons that stayed loyal. the blood ravens always yell "for the unknown primarch, either meaning they dont know who there founding chapter was.(hard to say really, in a way they are like the raven guard being all sneaky and such but they are alot like 1000 sons.) or that they were one of the missing.
it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds. 

also on a side note how many horus heresy books are they planning on writing?



ironhammer said:


> ah well I know from my own sources that lion el johnson was snatched up by the chaos gods and sent to an unknown time and place, (I think they sent him to a time after the collapse of the imperium), and russ just left and was never heard from again. Kahn is probably dead by now (how long do you think anyone, even a primarch, can survive fighting daemons on their own home turf?).


i thought the lion was in the rock being guarded while he recovered? thats what I had read on quite a few other forums and websites. but you are probably right

PLEASE remember there is an Edit Button. If you find you have something to add after making a post, please just edit the original post to include it rather than starting an immediate second post. Thanks -G


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> also on a side note how many horus heresy books are they planning on writing?


 ALOT lol well i mean they should have alot theres no evidence of it stoppin anytime soon and theres plenty of space on the timeline they havent covered yet and legions they havent covered yet with possible sequels to almost all of the books they have done so far


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

good! they are great stories. i really enjoy reading about all of it. in the fluff though marines are hard as hell to kill and their armour is incredibly solid but in the miniature game they fall pretty easily even by infantry.(and i play imperial guard :shok but i think it helps balance the game out if the astartes were as good as the fluff indicates they are games would just be foolish and it all wouldn't work so im content with the way things are


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> i thought the lion was in the rock being guarded while he recovered? thats what I had read on quite a few other forums and websites. but you are probably right


I think that is either lion's brother or just a random fallen angel


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> good! they are great stories. i really enjoy reading about all of it. in the fluff though marines are hard as hell to kill and their armour is incredibly solid but in the miniature game they fall pretty easily even by infantry.(and i play imperial guard :shok but i think it helps balance the game out if the astartes were as good as the fluff indicates they are games would just be foolish and it all wouldn't work so im content with the way things are


i completely agree with that sentiment the books are great and i wouldnt care if they did 5 for each legion us (the fans) would still be drooling for each new one that comes out:biggrin:

and i also agree that the fluff marines and tabletop marines are completely different in strength, which dont get me wrong is a very good thing cuz if an armys overpowered who do you think all the lil kids are gonna play and then those same lil kids will brag about how they won or almost won (which sohould be the case) even though really they have no right to do it at all. and GW also loves money so fans leaving the game is NOT a good thing so they keep it as fair as possible, but it still sucks that loyalist's get all the good stuff cuz they iz the poster boys lol


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The Lion is supposedly in stasis, being looked after by the watchers in the dark somewhere in the rock. Luther, the leader of the fallen angels is also held on the rock, constantly begging for forgiveness for what he did to the legion and the Lion.

The loyalist primarchs are not all dead, or at least it has not been confirmed that they have been.

Guilliman and the Lion are in stasis, with Guilliman supposedly healing; Khan is fighting either in the webway or beneath the Dark Eldar city Cammorragh. Dorn is believed to still be fighting, though his armour and at least one hand were recovered from a space hulk. Corax and Russ are fighting within the eye of terror, Corax for atonement for what he did shortly after the Horus Heresy. Vulkan simply vanished, no one knows what happened to him; and the fates of Sanginius and Ferrus Manus are of both being killed by a brother Primarch.

I believe the audio novel 'the lightning tower' reveals that both missing primarchs were discovered and that they suffered tragedies so great that it is better if they were forgotten. I think that in that story, Rogal Dorn reveals that the Emperor knows of their fates, and possibly other primarchs do as well (Horus, Guilliman, and himself most likely.)

Its been hinted to several times that the Horus Heresy series will see a book for every legion with several sequels for those whose story require them (ala the Dark Angels and Alpha Legion) and several books for the Siege of Terra if/when they do that. (So far, they have done books for six of the eighteen known legions, meaning they will likely do as many as fourteen more before the Siege. Though this amount may go down as the parts played by the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands are extremely minimal after the drop pod massacre.)

If you want to get an idea (in the 40k universe) of the difference between a marines stats and the stats of more human characters then I would strongly advise taking a look at the inquisitor game. The stats are set on a scale of 0-100 with 100 being the pinnacle of human ability. (For strength, your average veteran guardsman character has a strength of 50-60 while a space marine, without power armour, has a strength of 200.)


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

thanks reever! that will be sweet to see the 2 legions exposed. i've been waiting for it since i got into warhammer so i really hope they do. they might as well keep writing because everyone is hooked and it brings all sorts of money into GW.. those money hungry bastards. but we will see what happens. cant wait!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

> (how long do you think anyone, even a primarch, can survive fighting daemons on their own home turf?).


The Thirteenth Company, anyone? they've lasted 10k years, without any (obvious) taint, so if a gang of normal marines can do it surely a Primarch would have a good chance.

Personally, I think Corax, Russ and the Khan are kicking serious ass in the Eye, Guilliman is healing steadily, Dorn is leading the Adeptus Custodes, and Jonsen will awaken in the Rock, (which is were he is, ironhammer, stated for definite in GW's own fluff.) and pick a side in the final battle...


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

lion allegedly didn't pick a side during the horus heresy why would he pick one for the final battle?


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

i have a hard time believing that the Dark Angels would be undecided there most have been a reason they were delayed


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> i have a hard time believing that the Dark Angels would be undecided there most have been a reason they were delayed


the lion actually waited to see who would win the heresy then side with them haveing an excuse why he was not there, the fallen actually remained loyal to the emperor and to tell him of the lions treachery (lead by Luther) but the lion being the asshole that he is (no offense DA players) proclaimed them heretics and they have hunted them ever since so none of them could ever tell on them, basically the fallen are a cover upuke: 

and i still refuse to believe that the loyalist primarchs are alive  (which is either me hating the imperium so much i just cant let myself believe it or they are actually dead maybe a little bit of both) how are they going to survive for so long INSIDE the eye of terror with almost all of the traitor legions thirsting to kill their brothers its just not possible, and surviving ten thousand years INSIDE the eye without becoming corrupted in some way by the chaos god (therefor unfit to serve the emperor no matter how loyal they may remain if its possible would be likely exterminated by the inquisition if thats possible lol  basically im saying id like to see u try to remain uncorruptable inside the eye for thousands of years with the chaos god at your every step tempting you they would eventually fall to it either out of neccessity or just eventually being worn down, they are just too human to do that (if theyr not dead already which i like to believe) i hope ive stabbed ur argument an unsufferable blow but its unlikely ull give up or if ive just gotten lost in a ramble that doesnt make sense to anyone but me let me know


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## theoncomingstorm (Jun 24, 2008)

dont forget that time passes differently in the warp and the eye of terror is a convergence of warp and normal space, so the primarchs that have been fighting in the eye of terror for 11k years might only have been fighting for alot less relativly speaking.

There is meant to be a couple of things about the emperor, one is that when his body dies on the golden thrown he is simply dead and the imperium with him, another is that he will strengthen the imperium with his mental will and clense the warp of chaos, and another is that he will be reborn into a new body and bring stability and peace to the entire galaxy


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

i know that but they would still have been there for atleast seeming to be a few hundred years and i like to think dead or corrupted (maybe they come back and take their legions down to chaos with them, the gods will be done) :biggrin: thatd be super cool if that happened they come back and demand that their chapters join them ( even the splinter chapters who revere their primarchs like gods would likely follow. which means you filthy loyalists (no offense) would find yourselves outnumberd and the ultimate victory of chaos would finally be brought to fruition (AWESOME!!!!!!!!!)


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

NoiseMarine said:


> the lion actually waited to see who would win the heresy then side with them haveing an excuse why he was not there, the fallen actually remained loyal to the emperor and to tell him of the lions treachery (lead by Luther) but the lion being the asshole ****** that he is (no offense DA players) proclaimed them heretics and they have hunted them ever since so none of them could ever tell on them, basically the fallen are a cover upuke: ...


Don't the term "******" as a term of abuse. It's not big, it's not clever and it only makes you look good in front of your mates if your mates are cretins. As "you can judge a man by the company he keeps", the mates of cretins tend to be... well, I'll let you work that out.

Your point is wrong, wrong, wrong, despite saying "basically" and "actually" (twice). 

It has been stated in *one* place that the DA/Fallen roles were switched; this is in a book which attributes the idea to one of the Fallen. 

This was later extended and played about with as a piece of fanfiction (by Darkreever I think)... which has now "actually" become the story.

It has also "allegedly" surfaced in some rejected plotlines that may or may not be currently under revision by GW. The source for this is somewhat secretive, as, if it's true and the source got out, people at GW could be fired. So it's a bit hush-hush.

So "actually" this idea depends on 1 - the statement of a renegade DA; 2 - some fanfiction; 3 - a *rumour* that GW is _lookin_ (nothing more) at old plotlines.

So, though it's a _great_ story, it still is at the moment _just_ a story.

:the man who shot liberty cyclops:


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

i am beaten....  well this suks and i didnt really think about it when i said ****** im sory im not homophobic i think they have their rights and should be able to exercise them sorry for the misunderstanding. i just edited that post to just say asshole


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

maybe the Lion was tainted but i doubt it. and its true the 13th company made it 10,000 years in the warp so a Primarch could as well. i know my arguement is biased for i am a loyalist but i still think that its plausible


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Comon now Reddie you cannot go around suppressing his freedom of speech. He was saying it out of turn..yes. But also out of character, i would say, no need to prostrate him for such actions I think. It is the fundamental flaw with the swearing rule and the name calling, the critic can do it but not the criticised, Irony is rife. Not saying you swore but still.

DA were traitors, but I think they straightened up their act and fixed all their messes after the Caliban go boom incident. they are all bunch of lost emo boys who have no idea what is going on. Read the Word and let your soul be refreshed. Glory to Chaos and the Exalted Primarch Lorgar.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Eh i dont know Exitus that still seems a little hard to believe. im not saying its impossible just quite unlikely


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Exitus_10 said:


> Comon now Reddie you cannot go around suppressing his freedom of speech. He was saying it out of turn..yes. But also out of character, i would say, no need to prostrate him for such actions I think. It is the fundamental flaw with the swearing rule and the name calling, the critic can do it but not the criticised, Irony is rife. Not saying you swore but still...


I don't accept that argument. "******" is not an acceptable term of abuse because it is a slang term for homosexual and its use as an insult implies that there is something wrong with being gay. And if you think that belittling and denegrating homosexuality is an acceptable way to behave, then you are an asshole in my book. It has nothing to do with "swearing", it has to do with denegrating 10% of the worlds' population for their sexuality. I'm quite happy to swear and use some pretty choice expressions; but I don't use terms refering to people's characteristsics as terms of abuse.

Anyway; he's retracted what he said. I'm not going to rake him over coals. Apart from anything else, I'm not a mod and have no licence to do so - just a concerned citizen pointing out something I found offensive. If people want to object to the number of times I put fuck, shit and asshole in my posts, I'm quite prepared to listen. But I don't think that's the same as using terms like "******" as terms of abuse.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with Red. ****** is just not right to call someone. i am personally offended not because i am personally homosexual but some of my best friends are lesbians. also retarded is another term that annoys me as well. i have people in my family with learning disabilities. anything that is not a direct insult to something someone cant control is fine by me


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> I don't accept that argument. "******" is not an acceptable term of abuse because it is a slang term for homosexual and its use as an insult implies that there is something wrong with being gay. And if you think that belittling and denegrating homosexuality is an acceptable way to behave, then you are an asshole in my book. It has nothing to do with "swearing", it has to do with denegrating 10% of the worlds' population for their sexuality. I'm quite happy to swear and use some pretty choice expressions; but I don't use terms refering to people's characteristsics as terms of abuse.
> 
> Anyway; he's retracted what he said. I'm not going to rake him over coals. Apart from anything else, I'm not a mod and have no licence to do so - just a concerned citizen pointing out something I found offensive. If people want to object to the number of times I put fuck, shit and asshole in my posts, I'm quite prepared to listen. But I don't think that's the same as using terms like "******" as terms of abuse.


 i dont think there is anything wrong with being gay either, i didnt mean what i said and am sincerely sorry for saying it kno that i shouldnt have said it in the first place and i DIDNT mean that there was anything wrong with gays, i even edited my post to say just asshole  sorry i also have gay friends and i dont mean it to be anything offensive i just said something i shouldntv said and am deeply and sincerely sorry


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

you are forgiven noise marine ive done it before too its. we all do it without thinking


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

thank you for not goin all comissar on my stupid ass , i hope that my sincere appologys are enuf for any1 i have offended.

now can we get back to the actual reason for this thread so i can leave this humiliation behind me?


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

yes of course noisemarine! i will forget it ever happened. maybe the emporer only made 18 but he thought 20 sounded cooler and felt like tricking people. i bet he is giggling like a schoolgirl up on his golden throne :laugh: *teehee, teehee*


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

technically there are no records confirming russ really went into the eye of terror, all that is said is that he told his legion he was leaving and would one day return. I mean for all we know he could have taken a 10,000 year long nap (exaggerating). So why woulden't he still be uncorrupted? 


PS: I still say the imperium is better off without Gulliman.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

well thats because you hate the imperium ironhammer.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> technically there are no records confirming russ really went into the eye of terror, all that is said is that he told his legion he was leaving and would one day return.


Well, theres always the word of the thirteenth company who have been fighting against chaos in the eye of terror alongside Russ since after the Heresy. (They are proof enough that you can live in the eye of terror and not be corrupted, because of all the remaining thirteenth company, the vast majority are untainted and still loyal.)


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

i think that Russ had been fighting with them and the 13th returned for some reason. maybe to rally more troops. i bet hes still there. why would the 13th lie. the space wolves seem like honourable chaps


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

*Missing Primarchs Eh ?*

A friend of mine came up with a wild idea that the missing primarchs left this galaxy to another with the Emperors wife and child and any and all knowledge of this was expunged from records.When you think of that idea you can just imagine that one day some extremely,powerful guy claiming to be the Emperors son will show up at the head of two space marine legions commanded by two nearly,invincible primarchs.Then you must considered that these space marines are most likely better equipped then any other space marine because they wouldn't have been held back from creating new technology's.Then who knows how many ships or other troops they would have,the possibility's are endless.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Considering the Emperor was already 40,000 years old when he was interred on the throne, I'd say he's had more than one wife and child, or none at all, considering, as far as I know, that the Primarchs and Marines are sterile. Maybe they inherited it from him.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

he was born in the year 8000ish so he wasnt 40,000 years old when he was put on the throne he was more like 23,000 years old.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Considering the Emperor was already 40,000 years old when he was interred on the throne, I'd say he's had more than one wife and child, or none at all, considering, as far as I know, that the Primarchs and Marines are sterile. Maybe they inherited it from him.


 Just because the Emperor was old and the primarchs and space marines may have been sterile does not mean he didn't get any action and doesn't mean he couldn't have had a child or two.The primarchs were considered his sons so who knows its just a thought.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Well, theres always the word of the thirteenth company who have been fighting against chaos in the eye of terror alongside Russ since after the Heresy. (They are proof enough that you can live in the eye of terror and not be corrupted, because of all the remaining thirteenth company, the vast majority are untainted and still loyal.)


actually some of the 13th company were corrupted, remember wolfins (i think that's what tere called) yes they remain loyal to the imperium but they were still mutated, and that is still herecy in the eyes of the ecclesiarch. so HA!


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Mutation does not always mean corruption however; some mutation is accepted in the Imperium even if certain groups do not like it. (Sanctioned psykers, librarians, navigators.)

The wulfin mutation is similar (it is actually a more base part of the geneseed that all space wolves have to deal with), except that the members of the thirteenth company have come to terms with it and unleash it rather than fight it. (Some of those marines unleash to much and are forever changed by the mark of the wulfin into beasts as much wolf as marine.)

Sorry, but the wulfin aren't a form of corruption, merely an accepted form of mutation caused by the canus helix if a space wolf is unable to control his inner beast. (The canus helix is actually the part of space wolf geneseed that makes them unique.)


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Does anybody know what the Primarch for the Alpha legion are up to? I haven't found anything saying that he became a daemon prince...as far as I know Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim are all Daemon Primarchs right now but as for Perturabo/Alpharius I have no idea. Unfortunately Curze is undeniably dead


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

gulliman killed alpharius sometime after the herecy or during, sorry no daemonhood for him.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> gulliman killed alpharius sometime after the herecy or during, sorry no daemonhood for him.


At least thats what is believed; his body was never recovered by the Ultramarines and one of the things the Alpha Legion have always been known for is claiming that they are Alpharius. He probably was killed, but there is no true way of knowing for sure.


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah it was never said for certain that Alpharius was dead.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

but in legion you find out that alpharius has a twin brother omegon. they are refered to one soul in two bodies. so there were two primarchs leading the alpha legion so if one died there was always the other one and i personally think that both are still alive. although guilliman was a great warrior alpharius was noted at being the same size as horus who was a farely large primarch, granted he wasnt as bulky as angron or russ but he was still big. i think that guilliman entered the tent and was challenged by a captain that said he was alpharius. guilliman, the proud arse that he is, killed the captain easily and since he hated alpharius fully believed that the measly marine he killed was his brother. so when the ultramarines were soundly beaten they said they killed alpharius to cover the fact that they failed to do anything to the alpha legion.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Peturabo is a daemonprince too. i think Alpharious is dead though.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> he was born in the year 8000ish so he wasnt 40,000 years old when he was put on the throne he was more like 23,000 years old.


You're nearly correct, widowmaker, except it was 8,000 bce, somewhere in Turkey. Remember, the Chaos Gods were born around the time of the first human civilisation, disturbing the Warp and preventing the shamans from reincarnating, so they created the Emperor. 8,000 ad would be a bit too late for that. So, he's about 48,000 years old.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

oh sorry! i mis read that. pardon my ignorance


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Pardoned. Bye now.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> Peturabo is a daemonprince too. i think Alpharious is dead though.


It would only make sense for Alpharius and Omegon to fake their deaths by using a lackey, simply by acknowledging their manner of warfare; they are the masters of subterfuge, and even were Alpharius killed, Omegon most certainly remains (unless in the minute chance that one of them Was killed, it was Omegon that was killed, in which case it would be Alpharius remaining).


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

if alpharius were still alive (I've never read the heracy books and have never even heard of omegon) wouldn't there have been sightings, reports or other such of the like of the primarch, even the alpha legion still believes alpharius is dead, are you really sugessting he'd have no contact with his own legion in the last 10,000 years (even for alpharius that is a long time).

Besides, are you suggesting gulliman wouldn't recognize his own brother (all the primarchs were siblings) i mean I know the guy is a bit dense but come on prior to the heracy the two got into a huge arguement about tactics he'd seen the guy before he would know if he killed Alpharius.

But now that I think about it the assasin that allegidly killed Konrad Cruze was killed trying to escape so how do we know the deed was actually done, he could still be out there hunting down the night lords (he didn't actually turn to chaos, his legion did, as i know it, he'd lost control of his legion some time before).


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

With regards to the Alpha Legion, keep in mind that they worked very hard to make many of their own resemble each other to near perfection. Guilliman may have been many things, but even he couldn't see subtle differences between his own brothers features and a look-a-likes.

Also remember that secrecy and deceit are mainstays of the AL, so on top of members claiming to be Alpharius, its no stretch for Alpharius himself to go with the flow and pretend to be one of his own pretending to be himself. Its something the Alpha Legion would do, its all part of the hydra mentality after all.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> But now that I think about it the assasin that allegidly killed Konrad Cruze was killed trying to escape so how do we know the deed was actually done, he could still be out there hunting down the night lords (he didn't actually turn to chaos, his legion did, as i know it, he'd lost control of his legion some time before).



That's an interesting nugget, where did you hear that?


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

i didn't know that Konrad didn't turn to chaos. interesting. i have gained alot of respect for him now.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

u ppl forget Guillaman is a short sighted IDIOT! and i will gladly argue that point


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> That's an interesting nugget, where did you hear that?


there's a website, www.redelf.h1.ru/w40k_astartes.html it has detailed information on all the first founding and several subsequent founding chapters. that is where a lot of my information on the primarchs comes from. that is how I know the Conrad started out a vigalantie, like batman, and he could see the future, but only the bad parts.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

woot! konrad is one brutal mother fucker. my new hero i think


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

i'm guessing you've been to the website then?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Cheers for that site ironhammer. Very informative.

My reading of that fluff on the Night Lords would be that they aren't actually "Chaos" marines, but oppurtunistic renegades who despise the Imperium. And your right, it seems Curtz didn't fall to the Chaos powers, despite being tormented by them, he just felt betrayed by the Emperor. Being a nut job in the first place wouldn't have helped either.:crazy:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Konrad Kurze was attacked by M'Shen (reminds me of Martin Sheen, the guy sent to kill the baddie in Apocalypsse Now ), but the Vidlog never shows his death.

Kurze allowed the Assassin the close with Kurze, to prove himself right to the other Primarchs, who thought him a pussy for not doing the true out and out fighting that Iron Warriors, or the Son's of Horus Did.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

I seriously doubt an assassin could kill Konrad Curze anyways.In Index Atartes II, as an infant when he crashed into his foster planet Nostramo, he swum threw the molten metal of volcanic vents from the planets core.He then raised himself and became known as the top killer of the shadows and darkness earning his nickname Night Haunter.He nearly killed Rogal Dorn with out hesitation and very little effort.He knew that M'Shen a Callidus assassin was coming for him and his last words recorded on a recovered vid-log from the assassin,he declared that the Emperor was a false emperor.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> But now that I think about it the assasin that allegidly killed Konrad Cruze was killed trying to escape so how do we know the deed was actually done, he could still be out there hunting down the night lords (he didn't actually turn to chaos, his legion did, as i know it, he'd lost control of his legion some time before).


 Where does it say he lost control of the Night Lords legion ? I mean they only practiced his very own terror tactics and he denounced the Emperor as a weak hypocrite, am I missing something ?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Vaz said:


> Konrad Kurze was attacked by M'Shen (reminds me of Martin Sheen, the guy sent to kill the baddie in Apocalypsse Now ...


... who was called *Kurtz*, a former commander who had gone renegade and was being hunted by the servants of his former masters. "Apocalypse Now" was of course based on a story by Joseph *Conrad*...

:heart of darkness cyclops:


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

imntdead said:


> Where does it say he lost control of the Night Lords legion ? I mean they only practiced his very own terror tactics and he denounced the Emperor as a weak hypocrite, am I missing something ?


if you go to the website i mentioned there is a paragraph mentioning that the night lords were recuted from the criminal class of nostromo, where even as space marines they still showed criminal behavior, further terrorizing and tormenting civilians beyond Kruz's own tactics wherever they went. that leads me to think that was the last straw for the emporer and who'd believe they did this of their own accord. Certanly for an unstable man like Kruz this would appear as a betrayal and would have fallen.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> ... who was called *Kurtz*, a former commander who had gone renegade and was being hunted by the servants of his former masters. "Apocalypse Now" was of course based on a story by Joseph *Conrad*...


BRILLIANT! red orc your a genius! bwahaha game designers have no life i guess
(apologies to anyone i insulted)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Who spotted it first? ='(


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## General Panic (Jul 31, 2008)

Hehe, like this thread. 
Couple of points, the Emperor DID have sons, lots of them, they're all immortals and psychic blanks. There's a fair bit about them in the "Inquisition Wars" trilogy (Draco, Harlequin & Chaos Child) and in the old Realms of Chaos "The lost & damned" book.

Imperial calendar starts at the birth of the Emperor (8,000 years ago according to the aforementioned RoC book) so our current date is roughly M8 and 40K takes place 32,000 years into the future...

Alpharius was never confirmed as dead, the "evidence" for him being dead was a record from a battle-brother the Ultramarines had no record of, "found" by an inquisitor later tried & executed for heresy (Index astartes book)...

In the book where Horus gets his tour of the "future" and the past while on Davin, it seems likely that he critically damaged one of the missing primarchs when he lost it and cracked the capsule containing the developing primarch...


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Who spotted it first? ='(


IM SORRY VAZ!     

i must have missed your post when i was reading this over, so....





VAZ YOUR A FUCKING GENIUS! :victory:


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page

The Lexicanum. A wikipedia addition. It contains a fair bit of fluff, but I'm not 100% on the verification of its info. Still, good stories on there.


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

yeah, i know the site. some of their stuff is spot on and others are a little inaccurate, thats the price we all pay with wikis.


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## General Panic (Jul 31, 2008)

Other games with primarch names: Lion 'el Jonson - Gay poet called "Lionel Johnson" who wrote "Dark Angel", a poem about his lover..

J'Ghati Khan, say the first name fast and you get "Ducati", for a primarch who rides a bike!

The hippy-rocker "Hawkwind" are also a major influence on the 40K universe, from song titles like "Angels of Death" and "Needle Gun" to lyrics like "cast your way through the lines of fate" (streets of fear). Not really much of a surprise as the two founders of GW were total Hawkwind fans....


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I thought Lionel Johnson wrote "The Dark Angel" about his battle with alcoholism. Or was just a Victorian euphemism for the love that dare not speak its name?

Not sure that either Steve Jackson or Ian Livingstone had that much to do with putting Hawkwind references into 40k TBH; Rick Priestly and Richard Halliwell being long-haired rockers is a much more likely source...

ccam's cyclops:


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> if you go to the website i mentioned there is a paragraph mentioning that the night lords were recuted from the criminal class of nostromo, where even as space marines they still showed criminal behavior, further terrorizing and tormenting civilians beyond Kruz's own tactics wherever they went. that leads me to think that was the last straw for the emporer and who'd believe they did this of their own accord. Certanly for an unstable man like Kruz this would appear as a betrayal and would have fallen.


Ah I see what you mean very interesting theory.


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

isnt this going a bit off topic?
gay poets and motorbikes


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

it is. if you want to read about Lionel Johnson go to my other thread called "Religion in 40k"


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## Ocidius Irongrip (Aug 25, 2008)

Aright all,
This is my first post on this site and while I should have introduced myself first, this kinda discussion is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby so ill jump in here.
1. Lord of The Night, Author & year of publication escapes me right now,
however its from the perspective of a Night Lord who has been trapped in stasis (an eldar trap) since the assassination on his mentor Konrad Curze.
Now I loved this novel as it started the trend thats been carried on through the heresy books of heroic tragedy. In the novel its most poignantly revealed at the end that konrad curze wasnt asassinated by an agent of the emperor out of hand because of the heresy, but by an asassin despatched before the heresy, and only the last in a long line. Curze had evaded several previously but no longer had the strength to endure, instead he had his protege watch his demise and claim his crown that he might continue to lead the night lords against the imperium which had become corrupt, Curze advocated that terror was the tool and NEVER the end, however after awakening from stasis and contacting his brethren the Night Lord in the novel discovers that his brothers had fallen to chaos and lived only for slaughter and gain. So while konrad did lose his legion to chaos, it was despite his best attempts to avoid such happening.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Remember what Acerbus told Sahaal though; that everything he had known or been led to believe may have been a lie. It may never be clear which of the two was right in that novel, but for one it would be exactly as you said and for the other it would be that Cruze never lost control of his legion at all. (I believe Sahaal's side of things myself.)


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I probably have the most closest answer to the missing primarchs!!!!!

K listen!!


one of them is actually Sigmar from the warhammer world, the warhammer world is in the 40k universe. He fell to the warhammer world like a metoer like his brothers and Sigmar lived for 200 years without machines and he had super human powers. ???
Sigmar left the empire and wandered off (meeting the emperor), somehow Sigmar didnt survive and his legion was turned into the Emperors bodygurad army.. 


Also rumour that the second missing primarch was fighting the Necron Army of the Scorpion (Scorpion god could be true or not) and he used his ships as bombs and he created the mealstorm (he took the army down)


NOT SURE IF ANY OF THESE STORIES ARE TRUE BUT COULD BE GOOD AND TRUE


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> one of them is actually Sigmar from the warhammer world, the warhammer world is in the 40k universe. He fell to the warhammer world like a metoer like his brothers and Sigmar lived for 200 years without machines and he had super human powers. ???
> Sigmar left the empire and wandered off (meeting the emperor), somehow Sigmar didnt survive and his legion was turned into the Emperors bodygurad army..
> 
> 
> Also rumour that the second missing primarch was fighting the Necron Army of the Scorpion (Scorpion god could be true or not) and he used his ships as bombs and he created the mealstorm (he took the army down)


The speculation about Sigmar has been an ongoing debate, so much so that GW actually came out and announced that there was absolutely no link between 40k and wfb. I'm inclined to agree. If 40k was around for a long time before WFB, it might be worth discussing, but the reverse is true. They used Sigmar's back story as an influence for the Primarchs, and that's about where the link ends.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> Also rumour that the second missing primarch was fighting the Necron Army of the Scorpion (Scorpion god could be true or not) and he used his ships as bombs and he created the mealstorm (he took the army down)


That would be fine exept all the fluff in both the rulebooks and codicies point to the maelstorm as being a natural phenominon.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i heard that he sent one the bring back MAGNUS alive and that MAGNUS has enough phsyic energy to plant into the Emperors body and heal him completley


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## War_pig18 (Jan 6, 2009)

Has anybody paid any attention to the thing in IA:heroes& villains about the fact that Lion's body was never found...and that Cypher of the FA carries a sword he never uses that is rumored to be the Lion Sword.Also it says that he"may represent the FA only chance at redemption",and that he seems to be making his way to Terra......maybe Lions not dead just ashamed and wants to go to the emperor.


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## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

too many theories as to what happened to the missing primarchs. some seem more likely than others and some seem so.. not true lol. i personally like the idea of them never being found by the Emperor. they're probably still out in the galaxy somewhere. thats my take on it.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> i heard that he sent one the bring back MAGNUS alive and that MAGNUS has enough phsyic energy to plant into the Emperors body and heal him completley


Not entirely sure who your post is talking about here Ferrus, or where your getting your information.

The Emperor sent Leman Russ to take Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crime of sorcery.



Ferrus Manus said:


> Has anybody paid any attention to the thing in IA:heroes& villains about the fact that Lion's body was never found...and that Cypher of the FA carries a sword he never uses that is rumored to be the Lion Sword.Also it says that he"may represent the FA only chance at redemption",and that he seems to be making his way to Terra......maybe Lions not dead just ashamed and wants to go to the emperor.


This is kinda the wrong topic to be asking about if Cypher is the Lion; though for the record he is not and no one knows for sure what he is trying to do: kill the Emperor or save the fallen angels. The Lion was taken by the watchers in the dark, a group that reside in Caliban (well the rock now.) So he is actually somewhere in the rock being watched over. (Amongst other places, thats in the current and previous Dark Angel codex.)


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