# Kill points and IG



## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Finding my troop heavy IG has far far to many kill points compared to have to face.
I can decimate my foe, and still have most my army left but still end up with a loss. 
am i counting wrong as each unit of 10 guys count or should it just be one troop choice counts(ie the hq, and 2 troops all need to be wiped out to count). This would make it more on par with other units as a full troop choice with hq and 2 squads costs about 200-250 points. this is on par with other armies troop cost.

Right now a single troop choice for IG is a 45-100 HQ unit worth 2 kill points
then 2 60-85 point troops worth a kill point each.

The HQ is 5 wounds, T3, save3 free kill points to anything. All together my army has almost 2x the kill points of any foe I have faced. I can literally wipe him of the boared (- one guy)and have 1/2 my army left and still lose the match.

The only advice given to me was not to play eather guard or kill point games.

Hoping people hear have better options. Or as a guard player are troops just not worth it and everyone should take grenadiers or armored company?
also looking for ways guard counter this system. All out of idea's


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Claim a moral and tactical victory. Technically you lost, but you have more men to fight on with. Your opponent does not; you can't claim a victory when your entire force has been obliterated, even if you inflict heavy losses on the enemy.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Pick an enemy unit, shoot it until it's dead. rinse and repeat. It's worked for me so far. Seriously, Kill Points actually play to the IG strength. We don't have to move, we can stand and shoot. The only objective is to kill the enemy and IG do that better than anyone. 
Maybe if you share your list and some of the opponents you've played in KP games, strategies etc, we can make some suggestions better than mine above.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

don_mondo said:


> Pick an enemy unit, shoot it until it's dead. rinse and repeat. It's worked for me so far. Seriously, Kill Points actually play to the IG strength. We don't have to move, we can stand and shoot. The only objective is to kill the enemy and IG do that better than anyone.
> Maybe if you share your list and some of the opponents you've played in KP games, strategies etc, we can make some suggestions better than mine above.


Aye kill a unit till it's dead, thats not an issue. But often will wiping out say a squad of marines i will also loss a a squad or 2 or an HQ.

If i wipe out 200 points of a marine troop choice and kill em to the last man i get 1KP.
if they kill 200 points of guard they kill say 1 hq, and 2 troops woth 200 points all worth 4 KP.
See the issue? each kill point for me is worth about 60 points, for each marine kill point it is probaly on average 200.

Can you honestly say wiping 10 guardsmen should be worth the same as wiping 10 super soldier marines? thats ignoring our cumpolsory HQ's worth 2 KP and only made of 5 men.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15406 is my list.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

If you wipe him out you win regradless of the victory conditions (page 90 of the main rule book). 

Platoon HQ's are troop choices as far as Im concerned and are not HQ choices, otherwise you would exceend you HQ allocation when trying to fulfill minimum army selection. I would say they only count as a single point, although currently that will still leave you with too many victory points to give away. 

Guard will suck in that sense till they have new codex. I dont think I wil see many other IG armies at the GT's this year.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's not an HQ that gives a KP, it's a "character". If a character has a retinue then you get 1 KP for each. IG command squads seem to qualify as this.

Even without that problem IG still massively struggle in KP scenarios. Some armies have had specific units ruined, like biovores or death cult assassins, but for IG it's right across the board. A guard army will always have more KPs in it than the other guy, even if they do go for grenadiers in chimeras.

This KP thing is, in my opinion, a really massive screw up by GW. You really are starting games on an uneven playing field as a result and I can't see any possible justification for it. In theory it was to prevent min-maxing but since, as they always tell us, units are designed to be balanced within a codex rather than relative to other codexes, it does not provide a good system.

The depressing thing is that loads of people saw it right away, back when we saw the leaked pdf. Everyone knew that IG would be screwed and said so. GW could have done something about it but they didn't.

As far as tactics go Morgal, there's not a lot I can say. You have some options, as follows:

- Hide your units. Put command squads inside chimeras or something.
- Cut down on infantry and field big units where you can.
- Disengage if you can. The best result may be that nobody dies rather than that both sides lose guys, which will nearly always mean you lose.
- Wait and see if there's a remedy in the new codex.
- Agree with your opponent not to play KPs, as it simply isn't fair. You both know it won't be a fun game so do something else.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Someguy said:


> It's not an HQ that gives a KP, it's a "character". If a character has a retinue then you get 1 KP for each. IG command squads seem to qualify as this.


Im not sure that quite right. Im pretty certain in the codex that they do not have the independant character special rule. They are a command squad, not a commander and retinue, so only count as 1 KP if the whole unit is wiped out.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The officer is an IC, though that isn't actually what the KP scenario says; it just talks about a character with a retinue.


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

Imperial Guard Officers that come in the command Squad are not IC's. 

Only IC's in Guard armies are commissars, priests and techpriests that are taken with doctrines (as well as special characters like Yarrick, there may be a few more I'm missing too).

I don't like the idea of kill points, and usually my gaming group makes up some rules to determine who wins after a close game.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Sorry Rgw, but that is wrong. It's pretty easy to tell which guys are ICs, because they have the rule written in their entry.

For example, Page 38 of codex IG, the command squad entry says "Character: The Officer is an independent character". Pretty clear.

Commissars and priests are not ICs. See the advisors special rule on page 40. Commissars can be made to be ICs by a doctrine but normally they are attached to squads.

Techpriests are ICs.

Note, however, that the Annihilation scenario makes no mention of *independent* characters anyway. It just talks about characters.

It isn't entirely clear then which units it applies to. "Characters" and "Retinues" aren't always defined in codexes when you buy units. A hive tyrant isn't a character but it can have a retinue, for example.

I think that the intention may have been that the retinue would give a KP if it was chosen from another unit selection, like a marine command squad, but not if it's a single unit like a techmarine and his servitors. If that is the case then IG command squads wouldn't give 2 KPs, but I think it's a pretty badly worded rule (as well as an idiotic rule).


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

was just wondering what other units are affected.
guard have.

45 point fast attack.
(you always take at least a flamer)
45 point HQ's
60 point troops(or 35 points if you use remnants)
even our elites.
are 70 points each.

I compare this to other lists such as space marines where it is nearly impossible to get a unit for under 100 points.


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## weasly (Jun 18, 2008)

In my opininion the IG HQ sqauds would count as one KP for the Officer and another for each of the four guys. This is perfect idea of a retinue as I see it. This seems a bit harsh on IG, seeing as the opponent gets 5 points for killing officers and retinues for the platoon command squads. I suppose this represents that when individual sqauds of guard die, they army is not bothered (they are used to it lol). But when the command dies then the army starts losing confidence and organisation, which leads to defeat.


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

Ahh, I see. Very sorry for that.

Guess that's what I get for only checking my facts with Army Builder...


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## stormshroud (Apr 27, 2007)

I have said this before KP's are a real pain for guard. As an example I played a 2K game against a Death Guard army recently, his army was 11 KP's max and mine was 28. :shok:
I lost 18-7 but percentage wise I got managed to get more of the availble KP's, so I claimed it was a moral draw.

As a system it really doesn't make sense to me how can you justify that a 20 strong squad of Plague Marines is as valuable as a remnant squad of 5 guardsmen. An extreme example but it proves the point.

I only hope that GW correct this in the new codex. My advise Morgal is to approach any Annihilation game with the objective of wiping the other guy out as that is the only real way I can see my guard ever winning that scenario.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I thought of another question, although I suspect I know the answer. Can a platoon command squad capture an objective, as its part of a troop choice? I'd say no personally, but just wondering what other people thought?


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It certainly can. Look at the things that disqualify a troop unit from scoring on page 90 of the BBB. platoon command squads are not vehicles or swarms and do not have a special rule saying they don't score, so they score.

However, this doesn't have a lot to do with IG strategy in KP games, my advice for which remains: do not play KP games. They are not fun and you will always lose, so do something else with your time.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Someguy said:


> It certainly can. Look at the things that disqualify a troop unit from scoring on page 90 of the BBB. platoon command squads are not vehicles or swarms and do not have a special rule saying they don't score, so they score.
> 
> However, this doesn't have a lot to do with IG strategy in KP games, my advice for which remains: do not play KP games. They are not fun and you will always lose, so do something else with your time.


I just hate being a bad sport...
oh we rolled KP...well see ya.
or
oh well good game..you won but i'm an ass and going to say you didn't really.

It just seems that other than being bad sports or sucking it up we have few options.

Niether are likable.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

You could take a mech list. Expensive, but you'll be able to keep your vulnerable squads in transports to increase their survivability; plus the look on your opponents face when you set up 11 or 12 tanks in a 1500 point game is pretty priceless.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Morgal said:


> I just hate being a bad sport...
> oh we rolled KP...well see ya.
> or
> oh well good game..you won but i'm an ass and going to say you didn't really.
> ...


Just discuss the problem with your opponent and try to persuade him to not play KPs. There's no way for you to limit the KPs in your army and no way to win, so he should gain no satisfaction from automatically beating you. 

I certainly wouldn't play a KP game against a guard guy unless there was some very good reason to do it, like a tournament or something. A game in which you automatically win is as boring as a game in which you automatically lose. It would be a waste of everyone's time.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

OK, maybe I've been lucky in opponents or something, but so far my IG have only lost one Kill Point game. And we found out afterwards that there was a mix-up and he was playing 2000 points to my 1750. He might have won anyways, but maybe not. 
Sure, I played differently, protecting my Command squads so as not to give away easy KP. But I didn't change from my normal list, I just used different deployment and tactics. It made me think about what I was doing instead of going through the same old motions. I dunno, we'll see how it goes in the Vegas GT next weekend, rumor says two KP games.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

don_mondo said:


> OK, maybe I've been lucky in opponents or something, but so far my IG have only lost one Kill Point game. And we found out afterwards that there was a mix-up and he was playing 2000 points to my 1750. He might have won anyways, but maybe not.
> Sure, I played differently, protecting my Command squads so as not to give away easy KP. But I didn't change from my normal list, I just used different deployment and tactics. It made me think about what I was doing instead of going through the same old motions. I dunno, we'll see how it goes in the Vegas GT next weekend, rumor says two KP games.


Can we expect battle reports?


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Yes, I hope to be able to post battle reports. Here's a teaser:

FAO: Sector Command, US Sector

Transmitted: mondovia sector

Received: VEGAS sector

Date: 02210008.m02

Sir, our scout drones have detected a severe disturbance in the warp. Upon investigation, an unknown military force was detected. Full report on force composition and equipment follows. A course prediction places their arrival in the VEGAS sector on or about 02490006.m02.

don “mondo” morris
Col, 13th arkiv’l regt
Commanding

Duty is heavy as a mountain, death as light as a feather

******************************************************************

The following text is a translation of intercepted communications:

“The strange humans, elves and others came to our lands. They stole the Sacred writings. We have come, wielding their weapons, using their war machines, and shall recover that which they have taken. Let the last of the captive humans be fed to Sotek, for their knowledge is now ours. Prepare for WAR!! This shall be…….

MONDOZUMA’S REVENGE!”

End translation.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Just take Cameoline cloaks and sit in cover. With a 3+ cover save there isn't too much that the enemy can do to destroy your units without devoting a ton of energy to do it. Use lots of plasma weapons and be sure to take a full three Leman Russ Battle Tanks. This is also one of the few times that I'd suggest taking Ogryns. Rough Riders aren't too tough and a single blast from something like a Whirlwind will end them as a threat, so I suggest you go with something that has more staying power and won't disappear at the first loud bang.

Whenever something that can cause you serious problems is getting close, charge it with the big nasties and let the enemy have it.


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