# Where do new Chapters get their armory loadout and veterans?



## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

I was actually looking for a similar thread because i recall seeing it but i couldnt find it. 

So if anyone could be so kind to shoot me a link to that thread or answer the question here.

When a new chapter is created, where do they get their first company veterans from? Since the newly created marines wont have experience it wouldnt be fair to make them veterans because their the best they have at that moment...

And stuff like Dreadnoughts, Terminator armor, relic weapons and stuff like that... as far as i understand they knowledge required to create these is all but lost. So do they get it from their founding Chapter? Or do they have a secret stash on Mars where they have some spare suits of armor??


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Whilst some fluff talks about Terminator armour and Dreadnought tech being lost, personally I don't think that's true. Rather the tech is barely understood and so it takes an age, and a hell of an excuse, for new ones to be made.
As for a new Chapter, it doesn't have a 1st Co. Basically, the new recruits will be trained by members of a nearby Chapter. As time goes on, and the number of full Astartes grows, the new Chapter will start to operate alongside its trainers. It can take a hell of a long time for the new Chapter to build up its numbers and weapons, probably supplied by a nearby Forgeworld.
Eventually, there will be enough members of the new Chapter with enough experience that they will be given command positions; probably they will not serve in a 1st Co as there won't be enough of them to make such a group worthwhile. Again, lots of time passes until the Chapter has at least the Battle Coys and at least some members of 8th, 9th and 10th Coys; here the Chapter might go independent, although still building numbers and equipment. Several centuries later, there will be enough Veterans and heroes to start a 1st Coy and it is probably during this period that the AdMech will prepare what Termie armour and Dreadnought bodies it can. It may take more than a millenium for a Chapter to aquire a full armoury of weapons and armour-types. It may never have enough Termie armour to equip the full 1st Co, it may never have more than a couple of Dreads. I would suppose that taking stuff back from renegade Chapters might help, as long as it can be cleansed of taint, anyway.
So, TL;DR: weapons from parent Chapter and nearby Forgeworld (who probably already supply the parent Chapter). Armour and Dreads from nearby Forgeworld and building up in numbers over centuries; possibly the parent Chapter might donate some of these, but it would have to be a very good reason!

GFP


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

thanks for the reply! 

you mentioned taking stuff back from renegade chapters... i was wondering if they found an ancient tech stash, will they be allowed to keep that tech or do they have to find out who it belongs to and give it to the rightful owners?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Whilst some fluff talks about Terminator armour and Dreadnought tech being lost, personally I don't think that's true. Rather the tech is barely understood and so it takes an age, and a hell of an excuse, for new ones to be made.
> As for a new Chapter, it doesn't have a 1st Co. Basically, the new recruits will be trained by members of a nearby Chapter. As time goes on, and the number of full Astartes grows, the new Chapter will start to operate alongside its trainers. It can take a hell of a long time for the new Chapter to build up its numbers and weapons, probably supplied by a nearby Forgeworld.
> Eventually, there will be enough members of the new Chapter with enough experience that they will be given command positions; probably they will not serve in a 1st Co as there won't be enough of them to make such a group worthwhile. Again, lots of time passes until the Chapter has at least the Battle Coys and at least some members of 8th, 9th and 10th Coys; here the Chapter might go independent, although still building numbers and equipment. Several centuries later, there will be enough Veterans and heroes to start a 1st Coy and it is probably during this period that the AdMech will prepare what Termie armour and Dreadnought bodies it can. It may take more than a millenium for a Chapter to aquire a full armoury of weapons and armour-types. It may never have enough Termie armour to equip the full 1st Co, it may never have more than a couple of Dreads. I would suppose that taking stuff back from renegade Chapters might help, as long as it can be cleansed of taint, anyway.
> So, TL;DR: weapons from parent Chapter and nearby Forgeworld (who probably already supply the parent Chapter). Armour and Dreads from nearby Forgeworld and building up in numbers over centuries; possibly the parent Chapter might donate some of these, but it would have to be a very good reason!
> ...


good post but I'm not sure about the timelength part. I think it would take less time then that because members of the parent Chapter (may) go into the new chapter and bring with their tanks and dreads and weaponry.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Probably stupid question, but aren't most new chapters seeded from companies of existing chapters? Wouldn't this mean that they would already take what they have in the form of weapons and stuff from their parent chapter?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Probably stupid question, but aren't most new chapters seeded from companies of existing chapters? Wouldn't this mean that they would already take what they have in the form of weapons and stuff from their parent chapter?


yes but it dosen't mean that the new founded chapter will be just like their patron/parent chapter. They might try to teach and instill some of their tactics but ultimatley it varies


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

> Chapter creation
> 
> The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter. The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter.


doesnt say anything of the founding chapter to donate marines or even being present at the founding...


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

I see it as when a the high lords commission the Adeptus Astartes to make a new chapter that Patron Chapter like the legions in the 30th millennium would send a hand full of their best marines to be the commanders of the newly founded chapter and the rest of the 10 companies (like already stated) will be built up from recruitment worlds, but I guess it would be up to the Adeptus Mechanicus to issue the new chapter with armour and weapons, because I can't really see a founding chapter like, the Imperial Fists or the Ultramarines giving up their one of a kind relics and such.
but on the note of equipment and vehicles you think of the millions of worlds and billions of people that labour and slave over the workhorse that is the Imperium, I reckon they would outfit 1000 marines with armour and weapons in no time at all, now a days with modern military it can be done in a couple of months, so yeah.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I seem to remember that the Sable Swords first company are the surviving Astral Knights.

Midnight


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The Astartes 'donated' by the parent Chapter are a training cadre only. These will be high ranking Captains, Sergeants and Veterans (including Scout Sergeants) who will assume the positions of Chapter Master, Company Captains _et al_ on a temporary basis. Once the new Chapter has enough Astartes of its own, and enough combat experience, then the training cadre will hand over these positions to members of the new Chapter and return home. Occasionaly, however, the training cadre will be allowed to stay on as Chapter Master and other high ranks, although what circumstances would cause this to happen I don't know.
As for the time scale. It won't take more than a couple of centuries to get to a full complement of Astartes. It is gathering things like Termie armour and Dreads that will take as long as a millenium, and even then there's no saying the new Chapter will have lots.
The re-taking of armour from Renegades was my own idea; same might go for warships and weapons. I imagine it might depend on how much/little the Chapter has in its armoury as to whether it sees re-consecrating this stuff as a risk worth taking.

GFP


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

what about seeking out weapon stashes and places like space hulks? can salvaged tech be used or not?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think the AdMech has priority on any caches of tech, but especially space hulks. If a new Chapter found some Bolters or some Rhinos, then maybe a courtesy call to the nearest Forgeworld would get others out there to see if anything else is lying around. If the weapons/armour were examples from the GC/HH, then I think there might be a fight as to who gets them; both parties will want to study the older systems from better produced times.
Space hulks can hold loads of archeotech. A Chapter that finds one and claims and clears it will be in a good position to bargain for a share of what's found inside/a new ship if the hulk can be broken up into its component parts. Yet, the AdMech would be a bad enemy to make if they are kept uninformed of a hulk, or archeotech is taken without their permission; a new Chapter might find its supply of tech cut-off if it pisses off the Tech Priests!

GFP


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

DijnsK said:


> what about seeking out weapon stashes and places like space hulks? can salvaged tech be used or not?


In the novel _Salamander,_ the Salamanders and Marines Malevolent have two distinct (and irreconcilable) viewpoints on a weapons, ammo, and armor cache that they both find. 

The Marines Malevolent want to take all that they can carry to re-outfit their chapter. They reason that with the new equipment they can better prosecute the Emperor's Will.

The Salamanders want to return all of it to the AdMech reasoning that it was meant for another chapter. They look upon the Malevolents' actions as piracy.

It does seem to depend on the chapter, though I agree that you don't want to upset the Tech Priests.


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

that actually helps a lot... i say this because my chapter is a successor of the salamanders... and they have their own personal spacehulk for training purposes (inquisitors approved this, its all in the fluff im writing )


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Just remember the most important factor in Space Hulk fluff...


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

i dont get that chart... but i never played SH


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

DijnsK said:


> that actually helps a lot... i say this because my chapter is a successor of the salamanders... and they have their own personal spacehulk for training purposes (inquisitors approved this, its all in the fluff im writing )


I'm glad I could help in some way. 

Is your successor chapter going to carry on the tradition of weapon- and armor-crafting? I'm pretty sure this contributed to the Salamanders' viewpoint.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

BL should make a book specificaly on the founding of a new Chapter. That would be a neat and different view. I know alot of Chapters that are too low on numbers will merge with one of the parent/sibling chapters. As for Chapetrs like Blood Ravens or Astral Claws that seem to sprang from magic Genessed and was outfiited with Gear from god knows where.

Honestly alot of the crap SMs use is easily reproduce. Bolters, Chain Swords, PA, Rhinos, Drop Pods, Power Weapons, Meltas, Ect. is constantly being remade and produce for SMs, SoB, and even IG.Things like Dreads should not be lost cause everytime I turn around there is a new Dread. Oh hey Davian Thule! Termie armore is rare indeed, yet thats not lost either or there can be no way Ultras 1st Company, Death Wing, GKs, or any other Termie heavy type force to exist at this point after all the years Termie Armore being bash, smash, and melta'd. Your telling me there was more Terminator armor than there was Astartes during the HH? 

So really alot of things from any forgeworld can outfit a whole Chapter. The rare stuff like Dreads, Termie Armor, Master Crafted Weapons, and Veterans to use it come with time or given over time.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

To be fair, I've never agreed with the assumed fluff regarding Terminator and Dreadnaught armor for a number of reasons.

First, given that ten thousand years (10,000) has passed since the dismantling of the Legions, not taking into account the horrific losses of the Heresy -- I find it hard to believe that there are any suits of Terminator and Dreadnaught armor. Over ten-thousand years, I am a realist and believe that the number of shots fired at these peices of gear is largely uneffective, but ultimately no matter what happens -- Warp accident, lucky shot, malfunction -- these suits would be destroyed. 

*POTENTIAL SPOILER!!!!*
Second, reading the novels which are suppose to be official -- the amount of losses any army takes is usually considerable in any engagment. Take into account during Dark Creed, Kol'Badar and his Annointed are taking horrific losses, the Necrons are actually cutting his terminator suits in half. You cannot tell me that in 10,000 years of war (or even two centuries as I believe that is what they precieved it as), virtually constant warfare against an enemy of equal rank and ability ... that they even have terminator armor to put in the field. This same concept applies to the Space Marines that are loyal.

I am of the opinion that Terminator Armor and Dreadnaught Armor are not overly impossible to make, that the knowledge is not lost or forgotten. I feel that it requires top level clearance (from the High Lords) or a very special relationship with the Mechanicus to permit them to take upon themsleves the considerably difficult task of forging these suits of armor and gear.

Or perhaps its a more religious thing -- the true understanding of the technology is lost behind the veil of the Machine Cult. Perhaps in some scripture, written probably just prior to the Heresy, that states that these suits of armor must only be given upon specific instructions and cannot be mass produced -- or it would offend the Machine-God. Thus this prevents the Imperium upon capitlizing fully.

Not to mention maybe the damn things are assembled using barley understood machines, forged from materials extremely expensive and rare, and the programming and micro-technology used in their construction so unique -- that is is economically inefficient to mass produce these suits, or even maintain limited production.

I simply cannot agree that for ten-thousand years all these chapters have been gingerly handing out their suits of Terminator and Dreadnaught armor to their successors and that only recently -- a.ka. The Age of Waning, the slow death of the Imperium -- that losses start to seriously occur. I think they can and are replaced by the AdMech in exchange for special and very difficult tasks and missions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

From the Imperial Armour 10 it says that the Sons of Medusa are thought to be able to create Dreadnought chassis upon their forgeships nonetheless.

And I also recall from other sources that Terminator gear can still be built at a very slow pace. I'm looking for it now. May be a while.


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> I'm glad I could help in some way.
> 
> Is your successor chapter going to carry on the tradition of weapon- and armor-crafting? I'm pretty sure this contributed to the Salamanders' viewpoint.


yes their very skilled at crafting or customizing weapons and armor. 

@Blackguard, 
i agree on this, although you you have to take into account that salvaged armor can be repaired/remade

@Hailene, 
i await the results or your research


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Dreadnoughts appear to be unmakable - Index astartes entry on dreadnoughts - 'The art of their contruction has long since been lost'

Index Astartes then goes on to contradict itself on the matter of terminator armour in the space of a paragraph:

'Incredibly ancient, thesecrts of much of the contrsuction have long since been lost.... although new suits are produced by the adeptus mechanicus the production rate is so slow and the demand for them so great...'

So, deadnoughts creation has been lost and are impossible to replace, terminator armour constuction has also been lost, but they still make it...

Sigh.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Dreadnoughts appear to be unmakable - Index astartes entry on dreadnoughts - 'The art of their contruction has long since been lost'
> 
> Index Astartes then goes on to contradict itself on the matter of terminator armour in the space of a paragraph:
> 
> ...


Wow look at that Fluff Nazis. A contradiction in GW writing.

So the answere is No they cant make more Dreadnaughts ot Termie Armore. 

And Yes they can make Dreadnaughts and Dreadnaught Tatical Armore (Termie) at a very slow pace. :shok:

Sooooooooooo pick the one you like to belive k:.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Sooooooooooo pick the one you like to belive k:.


Actually, they only contradicted themselves over the terminator armour... :grin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

They must contradict themselves over Dreadnaught armor too cause IWs in their books make Dreads all the time in their Forges. I belive Davian Thule was installed in a new Dreadnaught as well. :wink:


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm not sure if Thule was put in a new Dreadnought, but Dreadnoughts can still be constructed in the 41st Millennium, though the knowledge and ability to do so is very rare. Imperial Armour 2 states: "Secret and arcane knowledge is used to keep those Dreandnoughts that do exist functioning, but very few 'new' Dreadnoughts are constructed today, and only by few skilled specialists who have preserved the required knowledge."

As quoted earlier, Index Astartes I states that the art of their construction has been lost, but also says that the arcane knowledge of their construction has passed into ritualised mythology, implying that it is remembered in some form. The blurb on Moriar the Chosen of the Blood Angels also states that the Dreadnought Moriar was entombed in was constructed by master artificer Brother Morleo (though Moriar wasn't the first occupant of the Dreadnought); the Blood Angels codex also repeats that the Dreanought was built by Brother Morleo.

My personal guess would be that Dreadnoughts aren't STC technology, or if they are, that the STC was lost and thus the knowledge to construct them is passed on through ritual rather than a specific blueprint.

@DijnsK, the graph just means that Genestealers are cool, and the more the better. After all, a Space Hulk without Genestealers is like a day without sunshine.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

IA2 states Dreadnaughts are still a go. Good to know.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> They must contradict themselves over Dreadnaught armor too cause IWs in their books make Dreads all the time in their Forges. I belive Davian Thule was installed in a new Dreadnaught as well. :wink:


Well the iron warriors are a chaos legion and thus aren't bound by what the imperium has or hadn't lost.

I think the best way to resolve discrepancies is that, like the baal predator, the 'imperium' has lost the ability to make them, however individual chapters might still possess the knowledge and they might pass on that knowledge to successor chapters.


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

so a chapter very adept at crafting weapons and armor, like salamanders, they might still have blueprints of how to make dreadnoughts??


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DijnsK said:


> so a chapter very adept at crafting weapons and armor, like salamanders, they might still have blueprints of how to make dreadnoughts??


I cant find the reference - but no, they dont have the STC (standard Template Construct) for the dreadnaught, but they manage to make more from a sort of 'reverse engineering' - so basically they copy the ones they already have piece by piece and then put it together (which they know how to do anyway because they know how to rebuild one from a charred hulk.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

If the Blood Angels have (or at least had) a master artificer with the knowledge to construct a new Dreadnought, I would expect chapters such as the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and Salamanders to definitely have someone with the requisite know-how. Of all of the First Founding chapters, I would suspect that only the White Scars have absolutely no one with such knowledge, since they don't use Dreadnoughts. I would imagine that at least some successor chapters would have had the rituals of Dreadnought construction passed down to them as well.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Well, since 40K is set in and extreme grimdark setting, and there is only war, new chapters WILL get veterans soon enough :biggrin:
As for new weaponry, im sure i read that plasma weaponry is only extremely hard to produce. And melta weaponry is also pretty common.
Power weaponry is the same as the plasma weaponry, just hard to produce.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

From what I read in the Salamander books, they can at the very least craft the various armors. One of their captains is actually given a new suit of artificer armor (it wasn't specified, but since the prior captain had artificer armor, I don't see why the new suit would be different).

A thought occurred to me and I looked at the company list. There doesn't seem to be more than a dozen Dreadnoughts among the companies in the Salamander chapter. Considering the prerequisites, I could see another dozen empty Dreadnoughts lasting the chapter for a long while.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

This is what we get when we have too many individuals that are in the GW/Forgeworld system.

You get inconsistancy.

If we take the line that the construct of Dreadnoughts and Terminator Armour is so called "Lost" then it is a situation of diminishing returns, effectively as the Empire of Man fight a never ending war in which is a given, then we find ourselves in a position that one day all Chapters will run out of Termainator Armour and Dreadnoughts.

Salvage can only recoup so much, repair can only stem the outcome for so long. And god forbid a whole heap of Chapters turn Excommunicatus Traitorius i a second massive schism.

Therefore it is logical to expect that the construct of new Dreadnoughts and Terminator Armour it is not in the scheme of things is not that difficult.

I just find it too silly that a massive empire as big as the Imperium of Man can't produce 150,000 Terminator Suits in 10,000 years.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> I just find it too silly that a massive empire as big as the Imperium of Man can't produce 150,000 Terminator Suits in 10,000 years.


Im sure that number has some significance? Im just struggling to work out why.

Thanks.


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

it takes about 3/4 months to construct a boeing 747, so ill assume that would be kind of similar to the time it might take to construct something as sophisticated as a (tactical)dreadnought armor.

and fluff-wise, do they have to pay for stuff like ammo or do they just get what they need since their a part of the imperial army?


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

The Index Astartes entry on Termies just says: "Although new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the production rate is so slow, and the demand for them so great, that each chapter takes the utmost care of its precious remaining suits."

My feeling is that it probably takes several years to produce a single suit of Terminator or Dreadnought armor. It's likely a highly ritualized process that combines technical skill, craftsmanship, artistry and ceremony.

I don't think the Departmento Munitorum supplies the Space Marines; they aren't technically within the normal structure of the Imperial Army and I think they have their own separate logistics, at least for the most part. Often they get this through trade pacts and treaties with various worlds or organizations under their protection. For instance, the worlds of Ultramar supply the Ultramarines with most of what they need; the Space Wolves have a pact with the Navigator House Belisarius whereby Belisarius provides navigators for the Space Wolves fleet and the Wolves provide body guards for Belisarius called the Wolfblade; the Iron Hands are practically an arm of the Mechanicus and get a lot of material from them; etc.


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## Makie (Feb 16, 2011)

Dogbeard said:


> I don't think the Departmento Munitorum supplies the Space Marines; they aren't technically within the normal structure of the Imperial Army and I think they have their own separate logistics, at least for the most part. Often they get this through trade pacts and treaties with various worlds or organizations under their protection.


Also worlds that assist a chapter don't have to pay a tithe to the imperium, as they are already helping imperial efforts directly.


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

but to kind of cut things short...

new chapters are still able to get "new" terminators and dreadnoughts?

i just dont really get the veteran part... during the creation of a new chapter they just dont really call it a chapter yet untill its like atleast 10/15% complete? that would give them a few veterans to start with...

or am i wrong? because i dont really see a founding chapter handing over some of their finest warriors to serve under a different flag... it might not even be their choice to create a new chapter, the High Lords of Terra decides that right?


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

I think the new Chapter Master has his would-be veterans hunt wild boars until they gain enough XP to level up to veteran status. :grin:


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

Dogbeard said:


> I think the new Chapter Master has his would-be veterans hunt wild boars until they gain enough XP to level up to veteran status. :grin:


lmao and how many hours did that take?? and does their mom come down the cellar when they need to "go" ?


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