# Just finished Brothers of the Snake...really liked it!



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I love the Homeric/Mycenaean theme of the Iron Snakes. 

I liked all of the characters and especially enjoyed Priad's character development. Character development isn't limited to Priad either. The other members of Damocles all have their unique personalities and moments of growth and development. 

It was a really nice novel. Pleasantly surprised as I had read some bad reviews before trying it. I really look forward to future Iron Snakes stuff from Abnett. 

Apparently, (at BL Dublin) Abnett has confirmed that the Snakes will be making appearances in the future

Have any of you guys reviewed the novel. Would be interested in reading your opinions on the book


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I really liked it as well, man. I should probably throw up a review some time.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

I really enjoyed this book, it was the first BL and 40k book I ever read. It's also the first of two books that I actually like by Dan Abnett. 

I like the structure of the book in that, thought it was a straight story, it read to me at least as a collection of shorts that lead in to the next. I enjoyed the characters and they way they were developed - though I swear to god the story with the medic I think the was was practically if it the Ultramarines movie -. They were all likeable.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I quite liked _Brothers of the Snake_, my favourite moment is when the Dreadnought Autolochus "interrogates" a Dark Eldar to find Priad. 

_"Wrong answer."_


LotN


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I really liked most of the scenes with the Primary Clerk. How she responded when she first saw Priad...priceless.

There were a few of things that I didn't like about the book, though. How the Space Marines fought the Orks. The battle in the open seemed...odd. When you're out numbered 10,000 to 1, you don't slug it out with them in the open. The losses they took were appalling. I don't know what the Chapter Master was hoping to do. Slog through a million Orks to kill the warboss? 

I didn't like how the cultists were able to harm the Snakes.

On the flip side, I didn't like how a single tactical squad could kill hundreds and hundreds of Dark Eldar without a loss. That seemed over much, yeah?

And the battle with the Chaos Space Marines in the refinery. It seemed too much like a...comic book fight. Too much back and forth without much tactical application. Tic for tac. Also the bowling over a CSM with a grenade haunts me.

Still, overall, I loved the book. Read it a couple-few times during some BL dry spells.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with most of your points, hailene.

I get that authors have thematic considerations for the factions they write about. In the Iron Snakes' case, Dan Abnett was motivated to have them not just behave like Homeric-Greek heroes, but to fight as them as well.

In practice, this was shown through a phalanx-style battle (Priad and the five squads taking on thousands of Orks), and in the Chapter's desire to face their enemies in what they considered worthy combat: infantry action. Unfortunately, as beautifully written as the book was, those parts didn't come off as nicely as they could have.

Greek hoplites, for instance, would have been the first to tell you that it's folly to march out a formation that can be outflanked by an enemy with superior numbers. It's why Leonidas and a few thousand of his best friends (not just three hundred Spartans) decided to hang out within the pass of Thermopylae, as opposed to being in the open. In an ideal world, Priad would have thought the same thing. Ditto with Seydon wanting to take on the myriads of Orks in heroic combat without trying to even thin out their ridiculous numbers from orbit or the air.

I think the people who claim the book was written with a mythic angle might have a point, though. This particular novel's themes might have *deliberately* been used in such a way as to trump reality and logic. It can't be coincidence that the next time we saw Priad he was being sent to an Ork held planet to keep them busy _by himself_ for *fifteen years!*

Don't get me wrong, I still loved both the novel and the short, but there's a part of me that hopes the Iron Snakes' upcoming Space Marines Battles entry shows that, yes, they can win in their own style... but without that style making you wonder if you're reading a story within a story. :wink:


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

It bears mentioning for those who haven't read it yet that it is more of a compilation of stories than a continuous novel (some don't like that format much). I've read the first sequences and very much enjoyed it. Priad is a good character. 
I had overlooked this book until I read Abnett's excellent 1,000 word short _Kill Hill_. I recommend that story wholeheartedly to any who haven't read it yet.


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## aerogems (May 16, 2013)

I liked the story where someone has to get some cheese or something to the other side of a course and the initiate eats the cheese and allows himself to be captured knowing they'll take him right to where he needs to go. A lot of times Astartes in 40K books come off seeming like unthinking brutes who just rely purely on strength and/or numbers, there's very little in the way of a feeling that they're thinking and adapting to the battle beyond maybe, "Oh crap, they're shelling us, let's get to cover!" which is more instinctual. They're supposed to have a post-human brain as well, allowing them to process information on a level we can't even really imagine, so it's nice to see that in action at least in some small way once in a while.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

hailene said:


> There were a few of things that I didn't like about the book, though. How the Space Marines fought the Orks. The battle in the open seemed...odd. When you're out numbered 10,000 to 1, you don't slug it out with them in the open. The losses they took were appalling. I don't know what the Chapter Master was hoping to do. Slog through a million Orks to kill the warboss?
> 
> I didn't like how the cultists were able to harm the Snakes.
> 
> On the flip side, I didn't like how a single tactical squad could kill hundreds and hundreds of Dark Eldar without a loss.


This is something, me another guy and the local GW store manager talked about. This book was written in a different time, it was written when Space Marines were everything in the books. They could do things like like. If this was written now that would never be happening. So with that in mind I total accept that. The landscape of the 40k books had changed since then. It's no different than in one of my Spider-Man comics from the 70s Spider-Man calls an Asian crook 'Slant Eyes', times change.


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## WaLkAwaY (Dec 5, 2012)

Is this the one with the shorter stories in it? If so I have not finished it but did like it so far as much as I have read.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Loli said:


> his book was written in a different time, it was written when Space Marines were everything in the books.


I don't know the exact time frame of _Brothers of the Snake_, but it came out after several (4? 5?) Horus Heresy novels had been released. The first one written by Abnett himself! 

I think times had already changed. Unless _Brothers of the Snake_ was a deliberate retro effort.


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## aerogems (May 16, 2013)

hailene said:


> I don't know the exact time frame of _Brothers of the Snake_, but it came out after several (4? 5?) Horus Heresy novels had been released. The first one written by Abnett himself!
> 
> I think times had already changed. Unless _Brothers of the Snake_ was a deliberate retro effort.


I think it's more a situation where strict adherence to lore and what not kind of got in the way of telling a good story. Damocles Squad was set to kind of swoop in at the last minute and save the day for the entire Chapter after, IIRC, basically there were significantly more Orks on the planet than they anticipated when they launched. Also seem to recall how the Iron Snakes had been forced into a kind of fighting retreat for the time Damocles Squad was in transit. So if I'm not confusing details with another book (it's been about a year since I read Brothers of the Snake and a lot of that was when I was working a very early morning shift, and I'm not exactly a morning person) it's not all that strange. The Orks forced them out of places with more cover and out onto an open plane through sheer numbers and attrition.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

hailene said:


> I don't know the exact time frame of _Brothers of the Snake_, but it came out after several (4? 5?) Horus Heresy novels had been released. The first one written by Abnett himself!
> 
> I think times had already changed. Unless _Brothers of the Snake_ was a deliberate retro effort.


Yes but the HH doesn't count, the entire premise of that is Legion vs Legion ripping the Imperium apart at the seams.

Brothers of the Snake was about pretty much a single squad. All else was irrelevant so they were able to just be superior to anything else in the Universe with regards to that story, because the focus was on Ultramarines and to showcase their superiority. 

I think that I've mistyped my point but I'm too tired to fine tune my post.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The dialogue of the novel indicates that the Iron Snakes offering heroic battle to the Orks was very much a deliberate attempt. Note the conversation after Seydon and his force have been extracted from the Ork-invaded planet: they're trying to figure out what to do next; the idea that they can't face them their numbers in combat is brought up; and at least one Iron Snake states they should bring in the fleet, then, and annihilate them.

The Iron Snakes knew what they were doing. It's their culture at work, for better or worse.



Loli said:


> Yes but the HH doesn't count, the entire premise of that is Legion vs Legion ripping the Imperium apart at the seams.


I think his point was that the mechanics that informed Black Library novels (what an individual Space Marine, or a squad, or a company, or Chapter, could or could not plausibly do) were more or less consistent at the time... and that Abnett himself was aware of them.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> I quite liked _Brothers of the Snake_, my favourite moment is when the Dreadnought Autolochus "interrogates" a Dark Eldar to find Priad.


How on earth did Priad survive a powerblade to the side of the head? (not that I think it detracted from the story) 



hailene said:


> Also the bowling over a CSM with a grenade haunts me.


Actually could someone explain how Damocles blew up the promethium refinery. They gathered all their grenades and explosives and then they...?



Phoebus said:


> Dan Abnett was motivated to have them not just behave like Homeric-Greek heroes, but to fight as them as well.


It's also worth mentioning that the legendary Homeric age of The Iliad and The Odyssey coincides with the historical Mycenaean age (and thus predates the Greek classical age by ~1,000 years). 

IMO, the Mycenaean culture has a rather Middle Eastern flavour (it's almost half-way between Mesopotamia and classical Greece). I thought it was pretty neat to have a chapter based on a less well-known culture. 



hailene said:


> I don't know the exact time frame of _Brothers of the Snake_, but it came out after several (4? 5?) Horus Heresy novels had been released.


Brothers of the Snake came out in June 2007 I believe


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Loli said:


> Yes but the HH doesn't count, the entire premise of that is Legion vs Legion ripping the Imperium apart at the seams.


Phoebus nailed the point I was making.

Basically we know roughly how much a SM should be able to do. We have examples from the HH already printed.



MontytheMighty said:


> Actually could someone explain how Damocles blew up the promethium refinery.


I'd have to look it up, but didn't they rigged the explosives to the promethium reserves and it exploded?



MontytheMighty said:


> Brothers of the Snake came out in June 2007 I believe


The release date doesn't tell the whole story. Mr. Abnett could have started started writing _Brothers of the Snake_ back in the early '00s, way before he even started _Horus Rising_. Potentially. The timing of the writing matters.

I would assume that Mr. Abnett wrote _Horus Rising_ first, but we don't know that as a fact. At least I don't.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's also worth mentioning that the legendary Homeric age of The Iliad and The Odyssey coincides with the historical Mycenaean age (and thus predates the Greek classical age by ~1,000 years).


Yes, but it might surprise readers to know that Abnett was actually staying true to the spirit of Homer's work. Case in point, the 'Iliad' itself is anachronistic in the sense that, beyond the depiction of "heroic combat" between champions (which would have been apropos to the age), it talks about phalanxes where the main battles are concerned.

That shouldn't be surprising, though, considering that Homer probably wrote around the time when hoplite phalanxes started to become prevalent in Greece. His contemporaries and their descendants only continued this trend, by depicting the heroes of the 'Iliad', their battles, etc., in clothing, weapons, armour, etc., out of their own era.



> IMO, the Mycenaean culture has a rather Middle Eastern flavour (it's almost half-way between Mesopotamia and classical Greece). I thought it was pretty neat to have a chapter based on a less well-known culture.


Ehhhh... not so much. Visually speaking, there is a great contrast between the Myceneans and their contemporaries in Asia Minor, modern Palestine, and Egypt. There are similarities in their mode of combat and their systems of government, to be sure, but those similarities extended throughout the Mediterranean during much of the known "B.C." era... even among cultures that had little to do with one another.

If you really want to pigeon-hole them, the Iron Snakes are warriors out of a Mycenaean legend, with bastardized names ranging from 12th century Greece to post-Alexandrian Persia, and fighting in a 40k style that's informed by small unit tactics, classical Greek phalanxes, high technology, and heroic challenges.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

I didnt like Brothers of the Snake at all (too childish and heroic for my liking), through it has its cool moments. 

Brother Holofurnace in the Salvations Reach GG novel i didnt like too - too unkillable, too smugg and honorable. Eadwin and Saraf on the other hand is the Space Marine that i believe in. Distant from humanity and IG, but not so distant, as not to listen for good tactical decision. 

So, i have really big hopes for SMB books about Iron Snakes at Urdesh this winter. The only thing that scares me - that it is written not only by Dan Abnett, but also by his wife Nick Vincent. Through i enjoyed her Gilead cooperation i really was hard-pressed slogging through Nick Vincents short in the Sabbat Worlds Anthology. It was uninteresting and very hard to read. 

But i have high hopes anyway :victory:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> I'd have to look it up, but didn't they rigged the explosives to the promethium reserves and it exploded?


Yeah something like that, it had something to do with a drill. I didn't quite get the details while I was reading it.



> The release date doesn't tell the whole story. Mr. Abnett could have started started writing _Brothers of the Snake_ back in the early '00s, way before he even started _Horus Rising_. Potentially. The timing of the writing matters.


You'd think earlier release date generally means earlier writing date...but as readers, we don't anything for sure



Phoebus said:


> the 'Iliad' itself is anachronistic in the sense that, beyond the depiction of "heroic combat" between champions (which would have been apropos to the age), it talks about phalanxes where the main battles are concerned.


Well, The Iliad itself was not written in classical times. 800BC falls in the Greek "Dark Age". 

...but yes, I doubt Homer had a very accurate idea of the Mycenaean civilisation of 1200BC. He probably pictures warriors of his age. Greeks of 400BC pictured warriors of their age. Medieval paintings of scenes from The Iliad have the Trojans and Achaeans people wearing medieval armour and clothes.

I think the Iron Snakes are a nice combination of Mycenaean, Classical Greek, and Homeric Greek influence. The former two are historical whereas the latter is legendary/mythological 



> Ehhhh... not so much. Visually speaking, there is a great contrast between the Myceneans and their contemporaries in Asia Minor, modern Palestine, and Egypt.


There is contrast and similarity (at least in my eyes). There was a lot of cultural exchange going on between the older Middle Eastern cultures and the somewhat younger Mediterranean cultures at that time. Hence why I think theirs some similarity. Perhaps not literally "half-way" though 



> If you really want to pigeon-hole them


I don't know what you mean by "pigeon hole". Identifying a 40K authour's sources of inspiration is always fun


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I don't know what you mean by "pigeon hole". Identifying a 40K authour's sources of inspiration is always fun


I didn't mean it in a negative way - I apologize for that. I used a poor word, but I'm just referring to what the basic themes of a group are. 



Anakwanar said:


> Brother Holofurnace in the Salvations Reach GG novel i didnt like too - too unkillable, too smugg and honorable. Eadwin and Saraf on the other hand is the Space Marine that i believe in. Distant from humanity and IG, but not so distant, as not to listen for good tactical decision.


... All three of them are about the same level of unkillable... _as none of them die,_ do they? :wink:

And as for "listening for good tactical decision," Kater asks if their plan is "the usual nonsense". Sar Af responds that it's actually "not useless"... and then basically tells them that his adjustments aren't recommendations. :biggrin:

Ultimately, Sar Af just has a biggest role than Kater or Eadwin. He gets additional exposure to the reader while helping Merrt out with his aiming problems. Other than that, though, the three Space Marines are not that different. They are there to impress the superhuman quality of their kind, while also informing the reader of the seriousness of the operation the Ghosts are going on.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Any idea if the Iron Snakes SMB novel will be the next one...or do we have to wait until 2015 or something like that?

I really hope it's written by Abnett


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well... 'The Unremembered Empire' hasn't been released yet. Do we even have a release date for 'Warmaster'? And then there's also the Bequin trilogy to take into account. My guess is that it's going to be tough for Dan to write a third non-Heresy novel in a row.

If Dan remains ambitious with his schedule, I think you'll see this order:
1. 'The Unremembered Empire' (third quarter 2013)
2. 'Warmaster' (estimated for December 2013)
3. 'Ravenor versus Eisenhorn' Part 2 (second or third quarter 2014) 
4. Heresy novel (fourth quarter 2014?)
5. Iron Snakes Space Marines Battle novel (sometime in 2015)
6. A sequel to Titanicus (or was it Double Eagle?) (sometime in 2015)
7. I couldn't guess when the theoretical Iron Snakes serialized novel would come out

... But that's just my guess. I base it on his bibliography/release schedule, which shows he is able to knock out two novels a year, but has also had to take a break (and a well-deserved one, at that - health related in one case, I think!) every couple of years. I include only his schedule since the Horus Heresy series started (for obvious reasons):
The Armour of Contempt (2006)
Horus Rising (2006)
Ravenor Rogue (2007)
Brothers of the Snake (June 2007)
Legion (2008)
Only In Death (October 2008)
Titanicus (October 2008)
Blood Pact (May 2009)
Prospero Burns (November 2009)
Salvation's Reach (October 2011)
Pariah: Ravenor Versus Eisenhorn (October 2012)
Know No Fear (March 2012)
The Warmaster (December 2013)

So, in eight years, Dan's been able to give us four (soon five) Heresy novels, four (soon five) Gaunt's Ghosts novels, two Inquisitor novels, a Snakes novel, a Titan novel, and two sourcebooks. That's roughly two novels a year on average, but he's a much more prolific writer than that: he's also written four Warhammer Fantasy novels, four novels for other properties, two original novels, and a screenplay.

As such, I think an average of two novels per year (health, happiness, etc., permitting) for the 40k/Heresy projects he's already mentioned is a feasible goal. 

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> As such, I think an average of two novels per year (health, happiness, etc., permitting) for the 40k/Heresy projects he's already mentioned is a feasible goal.


As long as it's written by Dan. I'm just afraid that they're going to let some authour write the Iron Snakes SMB novel. 

They let Andy Hoare write The Hunt for Voldorius, which features the AL as the main antagonists. Should've been Dan...he would've written a much better novel. The White Scars are Dan's fave chapter (according to report of BL Dublin) and he basically built the AL from scratch. Just imagine if he had done The Hunt for Voldorius.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Folks who were at BL Dublin seem to think it will be a collaboration between Mr. and Mrs. Abnett.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Folks who were at BL Dublin seem to think it will be a collaboration between Mr. and Mrs. Abnett.


OK good...I was afraid they'd give it to some untested authour


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

> Any idea if the Iron Snakes SMB novel will be the next one...or do we have to wait until 2015 or something like that?


 - this december 2013 (pre-release version at Weekender), with the release of the next GG novel (Warmaster) - written by him and his wife. He told that himself. 
But all this depends on Dan - due to his words (via his twitter) that he began writing 'Warmaster' TODAY shok So we need to believe, in his ability to write a novel in a 4 months time.

To Phoebus 


> Well... 'The Unremembered Empire' hasn't been released yet. Do we even have a release date for 'Warmaster'?


Unrem.Empire - October (ebook)
Warmaster - December (ebook) 
I hope this helps:read:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks! I'm especially happy about the earlier-than-expected release for the Snakes novel.


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