# Which race would you like to see as a major one, and which would you kick out?



## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Supposed you could remove/add your own choice to tabletop and fluff, who would you kick out and who would you add ( from minor races or something of your own ) 

What i'd like to see is some form of advanced human/abhuman civizilation outside of Imperium, maybe like the Interex or Brotherhood of Ruin or even Hrud perhaps. 

I'd definitely kick out Tau seeing how the latest codex and supplements are a total steaming pile of garbage, plus I never liked them. 

Who would you add kick out of 40k and for what reasons?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

I would kick out Orks because I don't feel like they fit. Everything in the setting is Grimdark, but they're the three stooges in space. I don't like it. 

I would replace them with basically new Orks. I would make them less comically stupid and more like an idealized feudal Japan, where they still respect strength above everything but aren't just a slapstick routine with bad jokes for names. I would also play with the statline to make them better individually (instead of just hoping to overwhelm through numbers).


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Depends on your opion, personally I love some of the ork fluff. Note *some* the lore which shows them as a giantic muscle bound creatures similar to a gorilla but intelligent enough for the basic use of weapons. 

The comical side certainly doesn't fit as well, some authors take it with liberties, going from their lack of pain for a goofy slapstick. 

I'd recomend "rynns world" it shows the other side quite well, it demonstrates the hazard that orks can be if they invade a world as well as the violence that they can inflict even to marines such as the crimson fists.

As to races that id like to see a more major role? It would actually be some of the more minor races such as the creatures from the *Ghoul Stars * who even in the turbulent galaxy haven't been wiped out for some reason and have a chapter of marines watching their everymove, they must be something interesting.

As to removal of a race for its interations/breaking of the fluff? I actually don't have one, the stories are not perfect but they work as an expanded and overarching story.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Battman said:


> Depends on your opion, personally I love some of the ork fluff. Note *some* the lore which shows them as a giantic muscle bound creatures similar to a gorilla but intelligent enough for the basic use of weapons.
> 
> The comical side certainly doesn't fit as well, some authors take it with liberties, going from their lack of pain for a goofy slapstick.
> 
> ...


It's not the way they're depicted in novels so much as the actual codex. Deff coptas? Weirdboys? I just can't take them seriously with names like those. I like the aesthetic of them, and they seem like they'd be fun to play, I just can't stand the goofiness.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I wouldn't actually remove any of the current Xenos races on the Tabletop, but I would definitely add these boys;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rak'Gol

The Rak'gol make the Orks look like wimps and the Dark Eldar look like sadist-amateurs.


LotN


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Lord of the Night said:


> I wouldn't actually remove any of the current Xenos races on the Tabletop, but I would definitely add these boys;
> 
> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rak'Gol
> 
> ...


Damn you beat me to it - I would absolutely love to see those on the table!

As far as removing? Sisters of battle. Killer nuns in space just seems... well... Kinda like the new Ghostbuster movie; A fun idea, but best left as just that.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> I wouldn't actually remove any of the current Xenos races on the Tabletop, but I would definitely add these boys;
> 
> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rak'Gol
> 
> ...


Love it! Really liking these guys o.o Nice addition to the thread. Better start a petition! 

As for Adepta Sororitas, I don't have issues with them aside the fact their armour is really overly too sexualized. I mean armor tits? Cmon. 

Also dont have issues with Orks. They may look goofy and ramshackled, but I doubt anybody would laugh when faced with a screaming bloodthirsty horde.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

I wouldnt remove any race, I would expand tau.
When they first appeared I thought that they had enormous potential for introducing a host of interesting minor races.
However GW has homogenised them into an anime bore fest. Release the fetters and give us some cool mercs and auxiliaries, hrud, anthrazods, formosians, gue'vesa (sic), thraxians etc etc.

As to orks not fitting, along with SM's they are the first and core race of 40k. Everything else came later, and they ain't stoopid, they're kunnin. Hell they can speak gothic well enough that a guardsman can understand it, and it's a completely alien language which doesn't fit their vocal range or physiology. That, and they come up with new tek all the time, without having to rely on STCs, and have the most fearsome force field, gravity manipulation and teleporta tek in 40k.
It's a matter of perspective, if all you see is dumb orks, you're not looking hard enough, and are about to have your home world krumped. ;-)


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

It's not that I think Orks have too low of an IQ. It's that I think Orks are dumb. Their tech works because they believe it will work, not because they actually can build any of those things. Everything's name is the same bad joke. I like the race, I like their look (generally), just not the whole postmodern space caveman concept.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

Ork tek doesn't work because they believe it works, the telyporta tekk, skokk attack gun, telyporta blastas, lifta dropped, stompas, koptas, dakkajets, everything works poppa.
The meks have knowledge of tek hardwired into their genes, but they're also imaginative, kreative and kunnin. They build stuff that works, it's straightforward and robust, but it works.

If orks arent "grimdork" enough for you, what about tau, they're the furthest from grimdark you can get, same for eldar actually, and space marines? Have you seen the latest SW wolf gubbins? It's ridiculous and looks like some bastardised cross over between pokemon and xenonblade.
But you'd ban orks because they don't spell proppa?

Plus, of all races Orks are the only ones who actually revel, nay thrive, in the 40k universe. They live for war. Conflict and aggression fuels them, accelerates their reproduction, and technological advancement and gives them a reason to exist. Every other race is miserable, and on the back foot, except for Orks. Tyranids and Necrons don't count because the concept of happiness is irrelevant to them. In fact, because of the eternal state of war in the 40k universe, Orks are already living in their paradise. There's no ideal state of peace for them to live, no unobtainable end game, they're already where they want to be. Orks have already won.


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## DelvarusThePitFighter (Aug 31, 2015)

Could take inspiration from some of the oop xenos ships from bfg - like the demiurgs etc?

Fuck Tau.


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## DelvarusThePitFighter (Aug 31, 2015)

I loved the orks in Space Marine - seemed to have brummy accents - XD
Made me wonder - pissed off WE with bad tempered eastend londoner accents - their chant 'You're goin' 'ome in landan ambulance, you're gonna get your fakin' 'ead kicked in'


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

R_Squared said:


> Ork tek doesn't work because they believe it works


This is exactly the reasoning behind having a "red paint job" upgrade for their vehicles. They think it will go faster, so that makes it go faster.



> If orks arent "grimdork" enough for you, what about tau, they're the furthest from grimdark you can get, same for eldar actually, and space marines? Have you seen the latest SW wolf gubbins? It's ridiculous and looks like some bastardised cross over between pokemon and xenonblade.
> But you'd ban orks because they don't spell proppa?


The Tau ARE actually grimdark. Their leaders mind control the lower classes. They lobotomize races to make them fit better into their society. They convert everyone by the sword to their greater good. Eldar have known they are just waiting for extinction for 10,000 years. They force asceticism on their entire culture to try to survive a little bit longer. What's not grimdark about that? I'm not arguing about looks, so what the Wulfen look like doesn't matter. 

The issue isn't the spelling, it's that literally every single thing about the army gets its name from the same bad joke. If even half their army had actual names (instead of just misspelling what a child would call the unit), I would feel a lot differently.



> Plus, of all races Orks are the only ones who actually revel, nay thrive, in the 40k universe. They live for war. Conflict and aggression fuels them, accelerates their reproduction, and technological advancement and gives them a reason to exist. Every other race is miserable, and on the back foot, except for Orks. Tyranids and Necrons don't count because the concept of happiness is irrelevant to them. In fact, because of the eternal state of war in the 40k universe, Orks are already living in their paradise. There's no ideal state of peace for them to live, no unobtainable end game, they're already where they want to be. Orks have already won.


This is an irrelevant point. No one is saying Orks don't like war, or aren't doing well in the fluff. What I am saying is that, for a setting that has gone so far out of its way to seem hopeless and doomed that a new word had to be invented to describe it, having a whole race for comic relief is annoying.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

I love the orks for many reason.

They provide jobber for novel quite easily, yet, you know that if they loose it's not that bad, because you know they will always come back. There's no sense of "doom and gloom" like the space marines and even the CSM.

Maybe they just need more brutal depiction, and a little less funny one.

Now, I never liked the Tau. They are too much of the Mary sue about them. But strangely, I feel they should be expanded over the galaxy. Because this could provide some contact with real nasty stuff, and the opportunity to get wiped their ass once or twice, which would be an excuse to see their dark side.

Other than that, I return from the squat/demiurge, anyone ? XD


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

I love the orks for many reason.

They provide jobber for novel quite easily, yet, you know that if they loose it's not that bad, because you know they will always come back. There's no sense of "doom and gloom" like the space marines and even the CSM.

Maybe they just need more brutal depiction, and a little less funny one.

Now, I never liked the Tau. They are too much of the Mary sue about them. But strangely, I feel they should be expanded over the galaxy. Because this could provide some contact with real nasty stuff, and the opportunity to get wiped their ass once or twice, which would be an excuse to see their dark side.

Other than that, I return from the squat/demiurge, anyone ? XD


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> I wouldn't actually remove any of the current Xenos races on the Tabletop, but I would definitely add these boys;
> 
> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rak'Gol
> 
> ...


Hmm these sound cool as! I've not actually encountered before. Yet another interesting group of aliens from around the ghoul stars.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

Tyriks said:


> This is exactly the reasoning behind having a "red paint job" upgrade for their vehicles. They think it will go faster, so that makes it go faster.
> 
> 
> The Tau ARE actually grimdark. Their leaders mind control the lower classes. They lobotomize races to make them fit better into their society. They convert everyone by the sword to their greater good. Eldar have known they are just waiting for extinction for 10,000 years. They force asceticism on their entire culture to try to survive a little bit longer. What's not grimdark about that? I'm not arguing about looks, so what the Wulfen look like doesn't matter.
> ...


We're arguing over taste, so we're never going to agree. 
The red paint job is one thing in the whole ork fluff that "works cause they want it too" there's no mention of any other thing that works like this it in the new codex at all. Have you read the new or codex? It's much less "goofy" than 2nd edition. In fact Orks havent been "goofy" for quite a while. However, as an ork player, I like the fact that they are not too serious, as to me this is a game, and it should be fun and entertaining. My job, mortgage and degree are serious enough, I don't need to take playing 40k seriously too. 

If Orks weren't part of 40k, it would be a much changed beast, a lot of people would never have played it, and I think it probably would never have got off the ground. Orks are the ultimate protagonists for the imperium. The imperium is dour, and fretful, and violent and cruel, Orks are all also violent and cruel, but they're also cheerful. They're the only race that is. They are the antithesis of the imperium, which takes itself far to seriously. That's appealing to me.
Tau and eldar may have their faults, but they are not grimdork, that is solely the preserve of the imperium. All the other races have their own agendas and care not a whit for high gothic or nuns and monks in space, (and wacky space vikings).

Ork spelling is part of their kulture. It's not childish because they don't have children, it's simplified gothic, which as I mentioned before is impressive in its way. A brutal race with the physiology of a 400 pound gorilla that can speak a language with a jaw the size of a dustbin lid designed for squishy pink monkeys is quite a feat. The spelling reflects the simplicity and brutal mindset of Orks, if it was all Death Blitz fighter and the like, then it would be odd, because it doesn't fit their society. I've never heard of someone rubbishing an entire faction because they don't like the names.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

R_Squared said:


> We're arguing over taste, so we're never going to agree.
> The red paint job is one thing in the whole ork fluff that "works cause they want it too" there's no mention of any other thing that works like this it in the new codex at all.


In the _Sanctus Reach_ novel there's some interesting fluff pertaining to this. The Mechboyz would occasionally talk in "mechboyz" lingo--that is, highly technical knowledge that the Old Ones bred into the Krork--Orks as we know them. One of the Mekboyz is trying to add a Knight's voidshield projector to his Stompa (with its own "bubble shield") when he says this:

"Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the *psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork*."

So we can see, at least, the "bubble shield" the Orks use are powered by some latent psychic power the Orks possess. 

It's not absolute proof, but it does seem that at least some Ork technology works off their psychic powers--the belief that it works, perhaps?



R_Squared said:


> I wouldnt remove any race, I would expand tau.
> 
> However GW has homogenised them into an anime bore fest.


I've asked this before, but never erally received an answer.

As an avid anime fan for the last 2 decades, I hardly see anything that specifically anime related about the Tau.

Piloted suits of armor is hardly something restricted to the anime medium.

We have dreadnoughts and Knights in WH40k alone. What's up with all this "anime" hype, anyway?


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm digging the Rak'gol.
they are insane. nasty, evil, powerful xenos.
I dig them.
As for kicking out: Tau aka Gundam Tabletop game. They look like Infinity made an appearance in 40k. They are not grimdark, they are not visually compatible with the gothic enviroment, they have abusive rule and are (sorry guys) a point-click army. Not fun to play with nor against. They where born just to stim Wh40k in a time where it looked like it was all going to crumble for the bad sales. Fuck them.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> As an avid anime fan for the last 2 decades, I hardly see anything that specifically anime related about the Tau.


Agreed with Hailene here. I dislike Tau, but i don't see anything anime-ish in them. Pilot driven mechs are hardly anime, and they certainly don't look like anime mechs, which are usually ridiculous and are little more than literal fighting suits able to do just anything. At least the Tau' suits have limitations and battlefield roles that suits the more military approach of sci-fi. It's not just one man's army.

Though I can guess people see a lot of asian philosophy in them, especially borrowed from japanese mythology and culture so automatically they link them to anime, which is nonsensical to me. 

But yeah, agreed with Delvarus, fuck Tau. I wish Stormlord and Necrons ripped Shadowsun a new one.



> They are not grimdark, they are not visually compatible with the gothic enviroment


And eldar and orks are? Why should they have to be compatible? They're their own race , culture and what not, no matter how sucky they are. I mean, Gothic is human made term, steaming from our own culture and fiction. Why would Tau be Gothic? That makes no sense.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Brobaddon said:


> And eldar and orks are? Why should they have to be compatible? They're their own race , culture and what not, no matter how sucky they are. I mean, Gothic is human made term, steaming from our own culture and fiction. Why would Tau be Gothic? That makes no sense.


eldar are gothic as fuck  llok at the armours, the buildings, everything screams grotesque style and visual/geometrical excess. orks..yep, they too are grotesque enough to be fitting. Tau are too linear, too tidy. they are out of the visual concept of grimdark, completely. Everything in wh40k has a visual link, a design "integrity". tau are not to be found within this same design, imo.
i own some tau models, had fun painting it, and fun using them as a force in a story driven scenario. But i really can't "see" them side by side with any other model of the range.
Of course i understand that a wide galaxy has a wide spectrum of shapes and "alien evolution" that might differ from human made terms. but this aint reality. it's a game. a fictional universe driven by a recurring theme: grimdark; and tau are just not there.


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

I dislike Tau. I like the "greater good" idea, but they are all sorts of Gundam. The style is not my thing. To me, the aesthetic is a little more Star Trek and a bit less Grimdark. 

Some Slann/Old one action bubbling to the top could be interesting. Space lizards with a tie to Cthulu Old Gods incarnation would add a little more variety to the landscape.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

R_Squared said:


> We're arguing over taste, so we're never going to agree.
> The red paint job is one thing in the whole ork fluff that "works cause they want it too" there's no mention of any other thing that works like this it in the new codex at all. Have you read the new or codex? It's much less "goofy" than 2nd edition. In fact Orks havent been "goofy" for quite a while. However, as an ork player, I like the fact that they are not too serious, as to me this is a game, and it should be fun and entertaining. My job, mortgage and degree are serious enough, I don't need to take playing 40k seriously too.
> 
> If Orks weren't part of 40k, it would be a much changed beast, a lot of people would never have played it, and I think it probably would never have got off the ground. Orks are the ultimate protagonists for the imperium. The imperium is dour, and fretful, and violent and cruel, Orks are all also violent and cruel, but they're also cheerful. They're the only race that is. They are the antithesis of the imperium, which takes itself far to seriously. That's appealing to me.
> ...


You are still the only person talking about spelling. Please read my last post. Also, I'm not saying Ork children came up with their names, so why bring Ork children into it? You are focusing too much on details of what I'm saying to get what I'm actually saying. 

I have not read the newest Ork codex because I'm not interested in Orks. I'm not going to spend $50 on a book I don't really want. Older codices do explicitly say that Ork tech works because they believe it will. I find that too absurd for me to get into. 

As far as 40k being fun, I don't know why you need an army to be goofy to think it's more fun than paying your mortgage. I have plenty of fun with Imperium armies, and it is not impeded even the tiniest bit by how seriously the Imperium takes itself. In fact, that never even occurs to me while I'm playing.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

hailene said:


> I hardly see anything that specifically anime related about the Tau.


It's my suspicion that with the internet being what it is, this opinion has proliferated without any fact checking (think Facebook post shares). At this point we are likely helpless to stop it; just accept that Tau look like Gundam and Gundam are what a lot of people think anime is. 'Cuz you know, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball (Z), Speed Racer, Yu-Gi-Oh, Beyblade, etc. etc., were never really all that popular.

On topic:

I would love to see Tyranids become more of a thing, and more fights between them and Necrons (without Blood Angels being involved). Unless some Primarchs show back up it seems like it will be those two races and Orks in a punch fest over the known 40k universe with the Chaos Gods kickin' it in the background sipping some tea and talking about how much fun those humans were in the good old days.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

eldar are gothic as fuck  llok at the armours, the buildings, everything screams grotesque style and visual/geometrical excess

Dark Eldar, yes, with all the neo-vampire/dark and what not, but Craftworld Eldar hardly. Yeah some buildings have similar traits, but them themselves are hardly " dark ". Especially the fact they like to preserve their shrine/maiden worlds and what not. 

Orks even less really, they're brutal, but so is Tau's philosophy. It only looks nice and peaceful on the outside but on the inside it's nothing but hive mind kind of notion almost. As soon as you reject the water caste, you'll have your world burn. Hardly not " grimdark " You're too focused on the design and exterior. 



> but they are all sorts of Gundam.


So, then even dreadnaughts and Titan Legios are " gundam " too? They're not really. I see tau battlesuits as nothing but alien in design. 



> I would love to see Tyranids become more of a thing, and more fights between them and Necrons (without Blood Angels being involved). Unless some Primarchs show back up it seems like it will be those two races and Orks in a punch fest over the known 40k universe with the Chaos Gods kickin' it in the background sipping some tea and talking about how much fun those humans were in the good old days.


Hm, well Hive Fleet Leviathan is on it's course to Terra isn't it? I could see this becoming a major event in the codexes and books. I mean, they did almost reduce Ultramar do the rubble didn't they?

As for Necrons, I'd like that too, but hopefully the awful models will change with the coming of next codex :/


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

Brobaddon said:


> So, then even dreadnaughts and Titan Legios are " gundam " too? They're not really.


No, the others are not. But it's difficult not to see it in Tau. It's not surprising that people are looking to Gundam models for Tau Conversions. Thread Reference Netierh the big ones nor the little ones are really my thing.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Brobaddon said:


> eldar are gothic as fuck llok at the armours, the buildings, everything screams grotesque style and visual/geometrical excess Dark Eldar, yes, with all the neo-vampire/dark and what not, but Craftworld Eldar hardly. Yeah some buildings have similar traits, but them themselves are hardly " dark ". Especially the fact they like to preserve their shrine/maiden worlds and what not. Orks even less really, they're brutal, but so is Tau's philosophy. It only looks nice and peaceful on the outside but on the inside it's nothing but hive mind kind of notion almost. As soon as you reject the water caste, you'll have your world burn. Hardly not " grimdark " You're too focused on the design and exterior.


beg to differ. if this is not some over the top - gothic - grotesque stuff...i don't know what is it. and don't let me start comparing models.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

I said, you're focusing too much on design. In any case, we'll have to agree to disagree. Now let's go back on topic. 

I admit LordofNight has hyped me with Rak'gol. Though I wonder whether games workshop even has a new race in mind, which I doubt. I guess sales would need to drastically drop again for them to introduce something entirely new.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

My oppinion: Kick the Tau out, they are a minor race and should stay one. And they recently got quite the well deserved bloody nose from overreaching.

The necrons should have a major tune up again. Make them succesful in ressurecting the ancient necrontyr and setting them up for a scism between the undeath and life factions of their race. With the imperium growing torn between supporting and allying with them, or declaring the livecrons xeno horrificus. Especially so if they turn to mass harvest space marine bodies as vessels for necron souls as previously hinted at.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

Tyriks said:


> You are still the only person talking about spelling. Please read my last post. Also, I'm not saying Ork children came up with their names, so why bring Ork children into it? You are focusing too much on details of what I'm saying to get what I'm actually saying.
> 
> I have not read the newest Ork codex because I'm not interested in Orks. I'm not going to spend $50 on a book I don't really want. Older codices do explicitly say that Ork tech works because they believe it will. I find that too absurd for me to get into.
> 
> As far as 40k being fun, I don't know why you need an army to be goofy to think it's more fun than paying your mortgage. I have plenty of fun with Imperium armies, and it is not impeded even the tiniest bit by how seriously the Imperium takes itself. In fact, that never even occurs to me while I'm playing.


OK, I understand that they're not to your taste, but I was just trying to bring to your attention a few things that as an ork player I know about, and that you didn't appear to know about, or appreciate before calling to squat the faction.
Orks haven't been "goofy", probably since at least 6th edition, I did mention that before i'm sure? I couldn't say what it was like for sure before then, the last experience I had with 40k up until 2 years ago was back, was in the 80s in the days of rogue trader.
I don't play them because they're "goofy" though, or enjoy them for that reason, I play them because I enjoy the fact that they are fun to play, and don't take themseIves too seriously. Their outlook is that war is fun, and that encourages me to play to that philosophy. For example, I often make decisions that favour an Orks outlook, if given a number of choices. It's like I'm role playing to a degree.
I think I would do that if I was playing any faction. However, I personally prefer to play the bad guys, and play something different, something alien. Whilst I appreciate Imperial forces, personally I wouldn't want to play them, except for maybe Mechanics, they're practically a different species.
I'm glad there are people willing to play imperial forces though, it's better to have a bredth of opponents to play against. I even like to play against Tau, which is why I didn't call for them to be squatted. In fact I think they should be expanded, a whole raft of xenos species waiting to deploy for the greater good would be an enrichment of the game.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ArkInRev said:


> No, the others are not. But it's difficult not to see it in Tau. It's not surprising that people are looking to Gundam models for Tau Conversions.


Linked in the link you shared is one asking about Gundam conversions to stand in as Imperial nights.

The general bodyshape of the Tau battlesuits don't match most Gundams. Gundams tend to have large legs and a fairly slim top (barring some extra heavy ones or ones with wings or something). Tau battle suits follow the general WH40k shape--small legs, wider shoulders.

Color doesn't even close and of course the heads are way different.

Still makes no real sense to me.


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

You're right, I think I quickly went to the wrong thread. There are quite a few posts and images correlating Tau and Gundam. 

But I don't think that there are no similarities: (Excuse the low quality recolor) I can see the difference, but the latter reminds me quite a bit of the former.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ArkInRev said:


> You're right, I think I quickly went to the wrong thread. There are quite a few posts and images correlating Tau and Gundam.
> 
> But I don't think that there are no similarities: (Excuse the low quality recolor) I can see the difference, but the latter reminds me quite a bit of the former.


No, the thread you linked was originally about Gundam models standing in for Tau. There's just another link within the thread that links another thread where someone was looking to make Gundam conversions for Imperial Knights.

I still don't seem much resemblance between the two. Starting from top to bottom...

Feet and ankles are completely different. The proportions of the feet and "thighs" are completely different, too. How the hips are articulated are different. The XV02's joints are splayed out.

There's that little codpiece-like thing on both of them. That is a point of similarity.

The XV02's waist also slims way down. The Gundam's has some narrowing, but no where near to the same degree. The shoulders and chest look nothing alike. The red area of the chest where the Gundam pilot would exit does look similar to the red area on the XV02, but in the original coloring from the Tau codex, it does not appear as if the front has that concave slope that the Gundam does. The front of the battlesuit is likely flat and not angled.

The strongest resemblance between the two are the forearms and hands. Even so, it's not too close since the proportion of the arms to the rest of the body is very different.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Besides the idea that they're supposed to be humanoid, there's not too much to directly compare. You couldn't imagine dropping a Gundam mostly unmodified into a Tau army and not have it look conspicuous.


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

I still see it, and my vote is still out. Still unfortunately lowest on the totem pole for me.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think you're going to find very many anime fans that go "oh, man, that looks like a mecha."

If you want to argue that _some_ of the Tau battlesuits appear to be _inspired_ by Japanese Mecha _to someone that does not really know mecha_, then I can agree with that, I suppose.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

R_Squared said:


> OK, I understand that they're not to your taste, but I was just trying to bring to your attention a few things that as an ork player I know about, and that you didn't appear to know about, or appreciate before calling to squat the faction.
> Orks haven't been "goofy", probably since at least 6th edition, I did mention that before i'm sure? I couldn't say what it was like for sure before then, the last experience I had with 40k up until 2 years ago was back, was in the 80s in the days of rogue trader.
> I don't play them because they're "goofy" though, or enjoy them for that reason, I play them because I enjoy the fact that they are fun to play, and don't take themseIves too seriously. Their outlook is that war is fun, and that encourages me to play to that philosophy. For example, I often make decisions that favour an Orks outlook, if given a number of choices. It's like I'm role playing to a degree.
> I think I would do that if I was playing any faction. However, I personally prefer to play the bad guys, and play something different, something alien. Whilst I appreciate Imperial forces, personally I wouldn't want to play them, except for maybe Mechanics, they're practically a different species.
> I'm glad there are people willing to play imperial forces though, it's better to have a bredth of opponents to play against. I even like to play against Tau, which is why I didn't call for them to be squatted. In fact I think they should be expanded, a whole raft of xenos species waiting to deploy for the greater good would be an enrichment of the game.


It seems like the issue is a divergent idea of what is goofy. I think having an entire army/culture based off of mispronounced slang is goofy. You don't, evidently. But I think you're taking my dislike too seriously (ironically), since the thread is just asking if I had to pick one race to go who it would be. I'm not saying fuck everything about Orks or their players, or that GW realistically should cut them, but they are the least interesting race to me since they are so ridiculously one-sided. I'm just not into that.



hailene said:


> I don't think you're going to find very many anime fans that go "oh, man, that looks like a mecha."
> 
> If you want to argue that _some_ of the Tau battlesuits appear to be _inspired_ by Japanese Mecha _to someone that does not really know mecha_, then I can agree with that, I suppose.


I knew three people who thought about getting into 40k as Tau because they liked Gundam (not sure which specific series) and Robotech. Obviously, they aren't the same, but there are stylistic similarities beyond the fact that they are giant robot suits.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> I knew three people who thought about getting into 40k as Tau because they liked Gundam (not sure which specific series) and Robotech. Obviously, they aren't the same, but there are stylistic similarities beyond the fact that they are giant robot suits.


Weird they'd use Robotech. That was sort of a travesty since they basically butchered the Japanese Macross to make Robotech.

I'd be interested in hearing what sort of reasons and similarities the Tau battlesuits drew them.

The Tau suits look really blocky and oddly top heavy (pretty typical for WH40k models from everything from an Emperor-class titan to a Space marine).

It's a pretty different aesthetic to me.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I wouldn't kick any of the current factions out and I'm bemused by the outpouring of criticism towards Orks and Tau.

Orks are brutal, cunning and violent killers.

Tau are brutal, cunning and violent killers.

The 40k universe is brimmed full of brutal, cunning and violent killers, are we done on that?

As for who I would add. Well come on... Squats innit.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I guess on topic. If I had to kill a faction it'd be the new Necrons.

I don't need more extremely powerful, haughty lords with great technology that also can be both extremely cruel and magnanimous on pretty much a whim.

They're called the Eldar.

I'd rather have a soulless horde out to annihilate all life.

Yeah, we already have the Tyranids, but I rather have a second Tyranids than a second Eldar.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Yeah the current Necrons are terrible, both lore and design wise. The models/art is too over-detailed and appear to be made for 10 year olds literally, with cliche scythes for " undead robots " to largely the same skeleton heads on each unit, save for deathmarks. I doubt they'll drop the whole egyptian theme, but at least hope the units get a remodelling in next codex, cause they'll simply terrible. At least remodel the heads to be somewhat unique and screw those ugly crowns.

As for lore wise, I expect them to do something actually important, like smite the nids and establish themselves as number one enemy to Imperium.

As for Necrons getting flesh bodies again, I doubt it will happen. Lore wise it would make sense and they're actually trying to pull that off but tabletop wise I doubt they'll change the whole gimmick. People came to love the soulless undead machines, not some " we don't even know how they looked as necrontyr " fleshling race.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Brobaddon said:


> Yeah the current Necrons are terrible, both lore and design wise. The models/art is too over-detailed and appear to be made for 10 year olds literally, with cliche scythes for " undead robots " to largely the same skeleton heads on each unit, save for deathmarks. I doubt they'll drop the whole egyptian theme, but at least hope the units get a remodelling in next codex, cause they'll simply terrible. At least remodel the heads to be somewhat unique and screw those ugly crowns.
> 
> As for lore wise, I expect them to do something actually important, like smite the nids and establish themselves as number one enemy to Imperium.
> 
> As for Necrons getting flesh bodies again, I doubt it will happen. Lore wise it would make sense and they're actually trying to pull that off but tabletop wise I doubt they'll change the whole gimmick. People came to love the soulless undead machines, not some " we don't even know how they looked as necrontyr " fleshling race.


The trouble we have with the necrons is trying to find a balance between "oldest and most advanced race still around" and "doesn't have the ability to wipe us out." The older iteration of necrons were basically extensions of the wills of four vastly powerful gods with little or no will of their own. They were cold, unfeeling and existed only to slaughter the living and feed their deities. Their knowledge and abilities gave them reality bending powers and made them basically immune to the permanence of death.

The new necrons are self centered egotistical space politicians/conquerors with massive superiority complexes stemmed from the fact that they defeated their own fucking gods. They have limits however, relying on an old failing technology in order to maintain a crumbling galactic empire of sorts as they try to reclaim what they lost eons ago. 


See the issue here? You're torn between Chaos 2.0 or Eldar 2.5, there's really no other trope that hasn't already been covered by some other race. Worth pointing out however is that the current lore at least allows for glitches in tombworld technology that destroys sleeping necrons' identities. So you can keep the silent soulless oldcron theme and motif if you wish. Both are just as valid. 


If I was to remove a race, it would be Tau only because they are the least influential in the overall of 40k. To bump one up? I don't know, everyone else seems to be sitting exactly where they should be.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Ah don't get me wrong, I love Necrons. I think they're cool and a race which everbody should be afraid of and who can kick anyone's ass in 40k. But, when i look at their current codex and fluff, i can't not to cringe every time I see it. 

As for what people said about Rak'gol, It's a cool idea and I'd like to see it, but i don't think it's feasible. Firstly you'd need to have them come closer inside of Imperium's territory because every race in 40k needs to have some access to one another, otherwise they're too isolated and cannot interact in the fluff. And since Rak'gol's territory is mostly in Halo stars, Imperium can't invade there effectively, unless Rak'Gol themselves launch a massive attack on the imperium, which given they're raiders is not really likely, and is questionable whether they have numbers to do it. 

They would also need to be massively expanded upon as they have like, what, 5 different variants of troops? And no vehicles basically. Though spacecraft and some moderate lore is already there.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

I would like to see a Rak'gol box set. You could have a board that is the inside of a ship, assume you have a small crew (essentially a kill team) and get boarded by them. You could have different points on the ship be targeted and failing to stop the Rak'gol from getting there/doing something has detrimental effects (i.e. if they get to the life support systems and trash them, you take hits every turn to represent struggling with lack of oxygen, if they take out the reactor you explode, losing computer systems could lock down the ship and make it harder to go from section to section, et cetera). If you made the board modular enough you could even have size options (like you and a friend merge your boards but have double the Rak'gol). I would want to buy a set like that.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

That'd be cool. From what I saw, their inspiration was definitely the alien franchise in regards to design of Rak'gol , though stub weaponary somehow makes me laugh, that's so human like of us to give an utterly alien species almost-human weaponary.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

It's close to the Space hulk, or Space Crusade concept, with a change of protagonist. Space Crusade with Imperial Navy armsmen vs Rak'gol sounds pretty cool.

Interestingly 40k has very little ship board combat, for a Sci if game. Especially as the main protagonists are Marines.
Maybe if GW get around updating Space Crusade, they may consider expanding the idea?


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I would love to see them get tid of the orks saying that "It works because they think it will." If that was the case orks would pick up sticks to blow up titans if they thought it was lucky or a gift from gork or mork. I hate that saying the most. Their fluff states that the meks are always tinkering with things. There would be no need to tinker if just thought it worked. "Red one go fasta" I don't have a problem with that who doesn't have a favorite color that they prefer over other colors. I drive only blue cars because I like blue and they seem to last longer and give me less problems than other colored cars. 
I would love to see the sisters of battle restored to a full fledged army. 

The one to get rid of actually there are two the Inquisition because I don't know anyone that plays them. The main one would be cult Mechanicus they are builders and gathers of data. They have the Skitarii for protection while they are out gathering data so not sure what the Mechanicus are as an army.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't have anything original to add. I'd also like to see the orks be less comical and more just a savage, barbarian race. I can live with their technology fluff but maybe it would be better to depict them as effective at using and reverse engineering technology they don't fully understand rather than just willing things to work. I don't care too much either way though

If a xenos race had to go it would be tau for me, but I'd prefer an aesthetic change to tone down the anime stuff a bit. I wouldn't actually want them to be removed, they fill a niche I suppose and I know many love them


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

morfangdakka said:


> I drive only blue cars because I like blue and they seem to last longer and give me less problems than other colored cars.


That's the essence of the Waaagh-Ork subconscious psychic field. They can't just blow up the galaxy by believing it, it's not a very strong psychic field. The Orks themselves aren't aware that they can do it, it manifests in their subconscious and helps them out a lot - a Mekboy knows instinctively how to put some bits of scrap and stuff together and make a gun or a tank, but his design only works because of the Waaagh-Ork. You can't actually weld pressure vessels with a flamethrower focussed to a point through a metal funnel, but Orks can because as far as they know, that's how a welder works. I don't think I've explained it very well, but the essence of it is that the Ork builds something shitty with poor materials and design, and the psychic field compensates for that by improving the vehicle psychically.

To be honest, I wouldn't go tinkering with 40k's setting. While a lot of the stories set within it are poor, either in concept or execution by BL, the setting itself is fucking _brilliant_ and is a major part of why I play 40k and Fantasy over other game systems.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Squire said:


> I don't have anything original to add. I'd also like to see the orks be less comical and more just a savage, barbarian race. I can live with their technology fluff but maybe it would be better to depict them as effective at using and reverse engineering technology they don't fully understand rather than just willing things to work. I don't care too much either way though


As I mentioned before, the novel _Sanctus Reach_ has a nifty deception of Ork tech working through a combination of advanced, innate technological know-how bred into the Mekboyz and the latent Ork psychic field (their "belief" in their technology).

It was interesting to see how the Mekboyz could innately know how to build a fusion generator, and in moments of clarity, subconsciously describe how their technology works...yet in the next breath describe the fusion generator as a "little sun".


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

I think a faction similar to Diasporex would offer a new and fresh perspective into 40k, an outside human empire that is not xenophobic and is in alliance with a xeno race of some kind. Would be cool to see 15-20k technology on a massive scale and possibly new STC and what not. 



> Originally Posted by *Squire*
> I don't have anything original to add. I'd also like to see the orks be less comical and more just a savage, barbarian race.


Honestly, I don't see what's comical about a milion strong horde of bloodthirsty savages.


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## Sevatar (Aug 21, 2013)

^

An additional human faction would be cool. No idea what it would look like exactly though.

Another vote for the Tau getting kicked out. They are just an attempt to grab the attention of the (anime) mecha crowd, meh.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sevatar said:


> ^
> They are just an attempt to grab the attention of the (anime) mecha crowd, meh.


Urgh, this weird mistaken idea is going to haunt the franchise until the day it dies.

The whole Tau=anime thing is almost as dominant as las guns being flash lights and Imperial Guard being mindless cannon fodder.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> An additional human faction would be cool. No idea what it would look like exactly though.


A human-xeno confederation tho. Outside of rogue traders and inquisitors, renegades and what not nowadays, you won't see that in present 40k. That is at least, in Imperium. 

But i was flipping pages through _Fulgrim _novel the other day and I remembered the Diasporex and thought to myself, " I would like to see this idea expanded and brought to present timeline. " 

As for how it would look, I had a vague idea ( I write too much fanfiction really ). Their technology would be comparable to necrons' in a way they would use a variant of gauss rifle technology and simillar magnetism propelled weaponary( used in m2 by humanity), and their troops would be consist of heavily augmented human-cyborgs.

They wouldn't have the numbers of Imperium, but their standard troops would be a good degree better than guardsmen. They wouldn't be exactly good as astartes, but something akin to thallax cohorts of 30k mechanicum. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Mechanicum-Thallax-Cohort-with-Multi-melta but with ful consciousness and independant thought. Or you know, Men of Iron. 

Xenos im not sure, but I'd like to see something like Mutons from XCOM/XCOM 2- http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...2_Muton.png/revision/latest?cb=20160220225023

As big/bigger than Astartes, with emphasis on tactical melee combat instead of mindless charging like orks/daemonkin do. 

Their background story would be something on the line of them being a part of expeditionary force from terra back in early 20 k set for the halo stars, in order to expand humanity's territory. They reached the very edge of the galaxy, but soon fell to predations of multiple different xenos race, especially massive ork armies. 

The planets they managed to colonize were destroyed by a massive Ork Waaagh and they were forced to retreat to starships and soon became a fleet-based civilization, like nowadays Craftworld Eldar. However, navigating halo stars without avoiding combat was all but impossible, and they were soon ambushed by another massive Ork fleet. Enter " - new Xenos " out of nowhere, and actually help them defeat the orks. 

A temporary alliance is formed as the race is revealed to be " - blip " and possesses a searing hatred for Orks since their planets were all but destroyed by them. The remnants are also fleet based and so the two civilizations join up together. The Xenos' contribution to the alliance would be in a form of heavy shock troops since their species specialises in brutal melee combat and have the stature and strength to maul an astartes to death. However, their tech is relatively low and is dependant mostly on projectile based weaponary as well as very slow ships that are not capable of warp travel. 

So the expeditionary fleet offer them a safe " haven " amidst their fleet and introduce to the marvels of peak humanity's technology, like STC that are able to create just about anything, heavy power-armour like armour that could capitalise on xenos' resilience and power, cybernetics and what not. 

But best of all, they offer them a place AMONG humanity, and promise them to make them permanent " citizens/allies " of whatever the imperium was called back then in 20k. 

However , as we all know, massive warp storms occur during 25k and fall of Eldar and what not, and so the return to Terra and baseline humanity is judged to be impossible at time. However, after setting up temporary colonies on several planets, some 10k or so later, they return to " Iom " only to find it much different than it used to be. Where once progress and enligthement ruled, now there's only barbarism and extreme xenophobia. They learn about this so-called Emperor of Mankind and forces of Adeptus Astartes and decide to contact Iom and return back to their old homeland. 

They try to explain the rest of humanity about their new allies and how all could benefit from their strrength, but the xenophobical imperium will have none of it and orders them to destroy their allies or be destroyed in return. 

Naturally, they refuse and war ensures. :threaten: 

I'd like to see something like that in regard to future development. Im personally not interest in squats or anything else, as we have enough tropes already.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

I like it. I've struggled to get on board with imperial forces, but a human, pre-imperial force with this sort of background is quite compelling.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Squire said:


> I'd also like to see the orks be less comical and more just a savage, barbarian race.


Orks are comical primarily from their own perspective and their own lore, primarily because it reflects their racial mentality. 

From outsider perspectives like human and tau, they are described as crude and barbaric yet terrifying foes to face.


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## ArkInRev (Feb 16, 2016)

I think there has been a concerted effort to be less comical, but some of the ork absurdity and original hooligan naming and spelling remain. 

I know Rick Priestley mentioned how GW didn't get the punchline that the entire emperor mythos was built around a person that no one ever saw or interacted with. The idea of the priesthood being led by an invisible man that saw everything and had psychic connections that reached out to the far ends of the galaxy. In Rogue Trader it mentions that the Emperor couldn't be bothered by the destruction of a single planet and mere billions of people. Even many of the marine chapter names were inside jokes.

What I'm getting at here, is that the entire system was retconned from comical sci-fi to grimdark. I think it's important to remember the origin of the mythos and not just the retconned version. The few bits of the Rick Priestley universe that remain and are noticed often seem to be the "what are you talking about" points. Space marines were criminals, Orks were hooligans, and Imperial Guard were drafted because they didn't pay fines. A lot of that got squatted, but there is a part of me that thinks the mythos of the grim dark universe is built on the giant and soulless propaganda machine that is the Imperium. Maybe that's just a joke that we're not in on. 

"Rogue Traders" would probably be the non-imperial force of humanity. I would be on board with non-imperial humans. They just shouldn't be Star Wars rebels because that's a little bit too obvious.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Serpion5 said:


> Orks are comical primarily from their own perspective and their own lore, primarily because it reflects their racial mentality.
> 
> From outsider perspectives like human and tau, they are described as crude and barbaric yet terrifying foes to face.


Good way of putting it. 

Anyway, that aspect of the fluff wouldn't put me off playing orks. I'd just have a kind of ork that's a bit different to the fluff depiction. A bit more intelligent, a bit less comic relief


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Honestly, reading the beast arises series so far offers zero comedy value on Orks, and just complete brutish madness and violence. 

I always liked how Dan Abbnet describes his characters and sets up the mood. 

In any case, I'd take Orks any day over Tau.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

ArkInRev said:


> I think there has been a concerted effort to be less comical, but some of the ork absurdity and original hooligan naming and spelling remain.
> 
> I know Rick Priestley mentioned how GW didn't get the punchline that the entire emperor mythos was built around a person that no one ever saw or interacted with. The idea of the priesthood being led by an invisible man that saw everything and had psychic connections that reached out to the far ends of the galaxy. In Rogue Trader it mentions that the Emperor couldn't be bothered by the destruction of a single planet and mere billions of people. Even many of the marine chapter names were inside jokes.
> 
> ...


best thing i have read all day, and i read all day most days.
i always saw marines as zealots and so sociopaths.
pretty much makes em criminal, at least in the old-fashioned ethos of the 1960s and 70s.
but equally, there was this "space truckin" vibe running through some of the art especially, and that often put marines in odd situations for superzealots.

if i had to screw with 40k races, I would:
1) stop with the eldar/dark eldar allies, separate and make them hate each other more than orks.
2) merge the inquisition with the sisters with the gay nites, in one book, and let them play as a single army until the ranges got fleshed out,
3) merge chaos and straight mahweens into a single book, with completely different upgrades and wargear and psycho balloney and so on, with the caveat that chaos dudes can mix with demon(s) and weenies can mix with inqui/knights/sob.
4) give imp guard a similar treatment, with the good and evil together and different mutations and so on and similar allying treatment.
5) work gs cults and nids together and let gs but not nids take imp guard "allies" ...


maybe more


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## 12ebootX797 (Mar 18, 2013)

Personally the Tau Fire Warriors are some of my favorite models in 40k. I love their design they remind me of space samurai especially when they have pulse rifles. They felt like a nice contrast to the imperium. The Tau a very clean and well run society on the outside but with a corrupt core. While the Imperium has a dark and corrupt exterior whose redeeming qualities were found in its citizens. I wouldn't want to see them gone from the game rather adapted.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

I'd eliminate Orks. In terms of races to add? Hrud. Or one of the other underdeveloped alien races (Dracolith or Draxians, whatever they are).

Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.

Post-5th Necrons are awesome. They're parallel to the Eldar, yes, but really quite distinct. Both killed their own gods, yes, but one intentionally in defiance, the other accidentally and caused an apocalypse. Both are ancient, but one slept the aeons and is now awakening and the other evolved through them (through generations) and fights to stop its seemingly inevitable fading. They have distinct aesthetics, which is quite important, and psychic vs. Materium ties. The Necrons are divided but believe they should be united, the Eldar are more or less united in practice even if they're nominally independent. The Necrons enslave other races, the Eldar manipulate them.

The Tau are also worth having, as a xeno faction that is comparable to humanity - all the other major xenos are either elder races or near-mindless (Tau-Humans, Eldar-Necrons, Orks-Tyranids-Daemons... young empires, ancient relics, and destructive scourges.). And the complaints of 'anime aesthetic' make no sense to me. _All_ the 40K races look different, that's part of the point.

As for races to add, again, I want something maximally distinct. The Hrud (just don't make them look like Skaven) as a third elder race, or some previously mentioned xenos species as a third younger race.

All IMHO, of course.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

VulkansNodosaurus said:


> I'd eliminate Orks. In terms of races to add? Hrud. Or one of the other underdeveloped alien races (Dracolith or Draxians, whatever they are).
> 
> Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.



Oo's dah villin umie skum?!


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Orks are brutal if unsophisticated warriors, yes, but if you take out their humor that's ALL they are. No complexity possible, no interesting nooks, like stereotypical Khorne Berserkers. And humor doesn't help much either. It's just... they're not even alien. Merely boring. Tyranids at least have a neat aesthetic, but that's it, again zero depth beyond 'om nom nom'. Villains having some sort of motivation or complexity isn't a bad thing, people. Look at Chaos Marines, or even Daemons. Mind you, taking out Orks massively changes 40K. I'd prefer to have them 'fixed' like the Necrons were.


The Beast arises series proves you wrong in all those aspects. It's not just Orks physical size and combat prowess that grows with their evolution, but their society and culture as well, to the point they're capable of fielding diplomats.


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

Necrons for sure. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and taste, but I find Necron supporters to be rabidly vocal. Check any Dawn of War forum or youtube comments section and you'll find an endless stream of people begging for Necrons to be a playable race. Even on the Battlefleet Gothic Armada comments, people are demanding Necrons to be the next playable race (it'll be Tau though). They are fans beyond sense and reason. How can Necrons be part of such a game when they barely have any variety of ships?

Hmm...so perhaps my issue isn't with Necrons, but with Necron fans. OK, I change my vote. Remove Necron fans from 40K.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Kharn The Complainer said:


> Necrons for sure. ...
> 
> Hmm...so perhaps my issue isn't with Necrons, but with Necron fans. OK, I change my vote. Remove Necron fans from 40K.


Haha. I'm right there with you. I think Necrons and Tau were lame additions. I think gw could have come up with better new factions than (ancient) Egyptianate terminators and "anime." 

Developing the gene stealer cult further would have been a better choice. Developing an Interex-like cybernetic human civilization could have very compelling. Or something totally new.


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

Kreuger said:


> . I think gw could have come up with better new factions than (ancient) Egyptianate terminators and "anime."


You give them too much credit for originality. It was just a robot version of GW's fantasy Khemri/Vampire Counts. I'm half surprised they didn't make a robot Nagash.

I guess they also have to look at marketability. If they make something too off the wall, will anyone even buy it?
Hell, if they made an army of shoggoths, it sounds awesome in theory, but I don't know how well such a thing would sell. If nobody buys the army, is there any point in making it?
People are going to buy Gundams and people are going to by Terminator Skeletons. Actually, based on this, I suspect the next army will be a Pony Unicorn army.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Kharn The Complainer said:


> ...
> People are going to buy Gundams and people are going to by Terminator Skeletons. Actually, based on this, I suspect the next army will be a Pony Unicorn army.


Ugh. That's what happens when marketing runs the show. 

I don't give them any undue credit for creativity. Gw has borrowed liberally from literature, fantasy, history, sci-fi, and film. I am under no illusions. The last real addition to the factions was Tyranids which is obviously borrowed heavily from _Starship Troopers_ and _Aliens_.

My contention is that they could have chosen better for their next/latest "borrowing."


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Guys, Necrons were introduced via Gorkamorka and then given WD rules for 40k during 2nd edition. We're in 7th bordering on 8th within a year if you believe the rumour mill. It's time to move on :grin:


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

ntaw said:


> guys, necrons were introduced via gorkamorka and then given wd rules for 40k during 2nd edition. We're in 7th bordering on 8th within a year if you believe the rumour mill. It's time to move on :grin:


*never!*


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Re-reading @Kreuger's comment Tyranids came out way before Starship Troopers and the Alien franchise is amazing: GW should steal _more_ from there (looks directly at Dreadknight) :biggrin:


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Tyranids came out way before Starship Troopers


Starship troopers the book was published in 1959. the same book contains the very first appearance of a Space Marine as we know it: big techno armour filled with gadgets that make him look like a gorilla, also drop podding from high orbit, jump packs etc...
Warhammer was a big rip-off of Heinlein stories, especially Starship troopers, from the very beginning.
First edition cover: does it rings a bell??


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Ha! Didn't realize the book was that old. Truth be told I wasn't contesting the similarities but rather the influence. Good call k:


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

oh well, the influence, imo, is all there: a few hiper tech warriors fighting against thousands of mindless beasts...


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

Despite there being numerous novels and short stories which use Space Marines, all of which pre-date GW, the lawyers at GW have decided that they own the name Space Marine.


On a completely different note...I wonder if Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone poop money? They wrote the Fighting Fantasy novels, which I grew up with (and with numerous fingers in numerous pages in case I made the wrong choice) and then they decided to make GW. Steve Jackson went on to found Lionhead studios with Peter Molyneux and Ian Livingstone was CEO of Eidos. Now that I think about it, these two men probably had a bigger influence over my childhood entertainment than anyone else in the world.


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## Mellow_ (Aug 5, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Guys, Necrons were introduced via Gorkamorka and then given WD rules for 40k during 2nd edition. We're in 7th bordering on 8th within a year if you believe the rumour mill. It's time to move on :grin:


An AoS type reboot?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I vaguely remember the introduction of the necrons when it happened, and also remember it being a good thing. Only thing I dislike about the necrons was the massive fluff change when they became much less mysterious a few years ago. As for the orks, as one of the original original races of 40k I still love them, however the big fluff change to make them reproduce by spores and that kind of thing still irritates me, I prefer the old fluff from Waauuugh the Orks and Ere We Go. And I know this will irk some people, but I liked the squats. I still have an original Squat mole mortar I have to assemble and paint. As for genestealer cults, they are a faction that cries out to be created by conversions, not as a full army, of course that is not how GW operates any more. I originally played the space marine epic scale game in the late 80's but saw the 40k development alongside it. The main factions I would like to see go is the huge plethora of redundant space marine armies. To my mind they should almost all be condensed into a single book with plenty of options, rather than so many distinct armies for which the basis is the same. Thing is my mates and I still play whatever edition we feel like, usually 5th or 6th and we generally play for fluff, and I am a chaos man always have been and always will be.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

neferhet said:


> oh well, the influence, imo, is all there: a few hiper tech warriors fighting against thousands of mindless beasts...


happens to me every day
most all day long -
as soon as i leave my home,
and often enough looking in the mirror.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

shaantitus said:


> I vaguely remember the introduction of the necrons when it happened, and also remember it being a good thing. Only thing I dislike about the necrons was the massive fluff change when they became much less mysterious a few years ago.


me too.
the background story is ok tho why not...

what in particular do you not like about it?



shaantitus said:


> As for the orks, as one of the original original races of 40k I still love them, however the big fluff change to make them reproduce by spores and that kind of thing still irritates me, I prefer the old fluff from Waauuugh the Orks and Ere We Go.


you made me read (again?) 
the warhammer 40k wikia entry for orks.
how did the ere we go stuff differ?
i think that i had a copy of that book,
a long time ago,
and have forgotten everything in it if i ever read it at all.



shaantitus said:


> As for genestealer cults, they are a faction that cries out to be created by conversions, not as a full army, of course that is not how GW operates any more.


agree completely.
just allow it on the table, as it represents part of the universe.
the toruble in my mind is that
people seem unable to make judgments of fairness and consistency.
"spamming" wave serpents makes for a boring collection.
abusing broken shield rules to turn a transport into a main battle tank is being an idiot.
the role play and simulation integration that originally was the draw to 40k,
especially,
seems to be lost on people these days.
everyone is basically playing a 3d collectible card game.
this was unheard of in the 80s and 90s, really.
then, magic was basically for kids...
now those kids went to college and bought 40k models.
i would be a neckbeard if i stopped shaving.



shaantitus said:


> The main factions I would like to see go is the huge plethora of redundant space marine armies. To my mind they should almost all be condensed into a single book with plenty of options, rather than so many distinct armies for which the basis is the same.


this is absolutely correct.

i would like to see a return to 
paying for what you put on the table.
for example
to have a psychic power you simply had to PAY for the power,
on the model of a wizardry discipline.
i modeled characters to represent the power attached to that character.
that model always played that way, cost that much...
less random super power dice pool sub-game ridiculousness.
on this model, the game is more easily "balanced"
grav weapons should cost more, discouraging their overuse.
likewise, army composition can be moderated by similar guidelines.
consider the following:
gw can run an ongoing narrative and resource report on the Internet through their homepage,
which reads like a newspaper and plays a bit like a newscast (think click this link form the starship troopers movie here).
on this site are resource reports due to battles around the world
(uploaded to gw through army list upload in a standard format via worldwide android app or Inet entry).
simple stat analysis of list and result data should deliver simple corrective coefficient that moderates points values that must be paid for that period (quarterly, maybe?)
so, spamming wave serpents results in them bring overused, on all fronts of conflict involving Eldar everywhere,
so Eldar everywhere must use more resources to keep the wave serpents flying,
more manufacturing and repair personnel, and so on...
which means increase points cost.
this adds a bit of economics to the game system,
makes it "live" and still allows gw control over which models and backstock get sold, to who and when... they seem to like that.

anyways, when gw management finally gets around to sending me an email,
i will be happy to work this out with/for them.
regardless, in my mind, this or something like it is going to happen.
i bet that people will love such a platform.
and it can fix the game after a-hat mbas wrecked it...


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The necrons had a very vague history, they had never spoken to anyone and their intentions(apart from killing everything) were inscrutable, not anymore. I liked that they were an implacable army of unknown origin or intentions. If you want to understand my take on necrons, read one of the Caiphas Cain novels by sandy Mitchell. Sorry I cannot remember which one. When Cain comes up against necrons it is Bowel Loosening Terror for the win.

As for the orks, it is a while ago for me, but I certainly remember they weren't a fungus. New orks budded off the old orks, or were born some way, but orks sprouting up out of the ground from spores was certainly not it. As for their tech, it is simple when it needs to be, complex when it needs to be, but always functional and always cool. They might talk and act in a amusing way, but not when they are trying to hack your arm off with a power claw, just ask Yarrick about that one.


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## Kharn The Complainer (Aug 19, 2015)

I see numerous people complaining about the Ork fungus thing. That has been cannon for as long as I have known 40k. How long have I known 40k? Well, since my brother got the 2nd Edition for Christmas and I spent a lot of time reading all the rule/fluff books.
So basically, you've all hated Ork fluff for the past 20 years.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Kharn The Complainer said:


> I see numerous people complaining about the Ork fungus thing. That has been cannon for as long as I have known 40k. How long have I known 40k? Well, since my brother got the 2nd Edition for Christmas and I spent a lot of time reading all the rule/fluff books.
> So basically, you've all hated Ork fluff for the past 20 years.


this. Also, most stuff in rogue trader era didn't really had a fluff or it was ridiculous so they changed it. What's wrong in bio engineered fungi warrior race that fought for the Old Ones? Seriously, are Pokemon C'Tans a better idea??


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Way to take me out of context kharn. I said I like the fluff for the orks, and it was only the change to their reproduction method that seemed silly. So no, I have not hated the ork fluff for the last 20 years.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

Kharn The Complainer said:


> I see numerous people complaining about the Ork fungus thing. That has been cannon for as long as I have known 40k. How long have I known 40k? Well, since my brother got the 2nd Edition for Christmas and I spent a lot of time reading all the rule/fluff books.
> So basically, you've all hated Ork fluff for the past 20 years.


well, i take it that this fungus theory is the best theory that the imperium has at the time.
and of course theories change.
something like a fungus?
sometimes a fungal type thing?

i looked back through the old ere we go codex.
i see that there is zero mention of any fungalo proterties, though i might have missed something.
the feeling was squarely freebooter-esque and with all the orky event cards and the fiction...

i see what you mean about it not being anything like a simple fungus but
i think that the way to see it is that the imperium understands only so much and the story that they tell is like this,
that when orks die some cells become spores (create cysts i guess, and aerosolized spread everywhere e.g. antipersonal mines might not be the best way to minimize orkoid species in the long run. 
there is a long and complex progression as the subspecies necessary to support orks sprout and the environment is changed to support further orkoid life and so it progresses until finally some thousands of years later you end up with a goff warband such as those in the ere we go codex...

maybe after a few generations, maybe 70 years, you end up with primitive orks
unless they are permitted easy access to tech and exposure to other things,
in which case the orkoid genome expresses itself in unique ways e.g. mekaniaks, weird boyz and so on.

i dunno, i think that
once you let go of the idea that an ork is a bunch of bread mold in a bag of hate,
then you can get something of the old ork character from ere we go era portayals.

in my opinion, 
it is the armaggeddonization of the game,
moar and moar skullz,
plastic for the credit gods,
marketing based world construction and game development...
this is what makes sporulent orks rising in waves like summoned deamons!
summon a nearby orkoid tribe with the new ork sporeminer and his bodyguard!
the green tide of the credit godz commands it!
plus if you wanna win games at collectible card gay... errr... 40k tournaments
then you need to buy these models.
seriously.
four of them.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

You are right jin, that's why I play the game with friends, using the edition we are both happy with, with house rules or datasheets from elsewere to fill the gaps. Problem is we both like chaos, so sometimes we have to roll off to see who plays nids.


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## jin (Feb 20, 2014)

shaantitus said:


> You are right jin, that's why I play the game with friends, using the edition we are both happy with, with house rules or datasheets from elsewere to fill the gaps. Problem is we both like chaos, so sometimes we have to roll off to see who plays nids.


and that is the best part of this hobby, in my opinion, 
it makes us talk about rules under which we are all similarly bound
and in which we all are similarly invested. 
this is an invaluable skill,
especially for leaders.
it is a language of a thriving social-political economy based in reason.
the 40k universe requires a rather complex simulation. through the rules and background, situations are created and played out. i always saw the harlequins as representing this but anyways...
the rules allow this to happen.
but, the rules as written are often not clear.
there are clues as to how the rules are intended, i suppose.
but these are not always easy to find.
the best support for this sort of thing
is a thriving community of players actively integrated with the corporate brain bugs at G dubs but... we know what happened next.
Gdubs went the other way, abandoned the outriders and so on, screwed the local dudes who stood to benefit enough on the sales at discount in order to maintain this necessary thriving community.


anyways, 
any way you slice it is is excellent cognitive training for young people ... in my opinion, the most redeeming aspect of the game/hobby. strategic thinking, meta level executive thinking, reasoned discourse with vested interest...


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