# 21st century equivalent of a standard-issue IG lasgun



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

what 21st century firearm approximates the power of an IG lasgun (standard-issue "flashlights", not those fancy hell-guns or "hot-shots")?

or are lasguns overpowered by 21st century standards?

would you say that a beam fired from a lasgun is more powerful than (for example) a 7.62×39mm round fired from an AK-47 (capable of punching through concrete)?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

A lasgun is a pretty darn awesome weapon. Was it not for the fact that it is up against these darn bio-enginered immortal killing machines.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Doelago said:


> A lasgun is a pretty darn awesome weapon. Was it not for the fact that it is up against these darn bio-enginered immortal killing machines.


And aliens who exist only to feed. And aliens who exist only to fight. And.... Space Communists....


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

A lasgun is said to be able to shoot through 3 feet of concrete so a .50 cal round out of a sniper rifle would be weaker.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that Lasguns just leave scorch marks on walls - they don't really have much power in regard to substances like concrete.

Midnight


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I think that Lasguns just leave scorch marks on walls - they don't really have much power in regard to substances like concrete.
> 
> Midnight


You have to keep in mind that concrete has a decently high specific heat as well as density. A directed energy weapon like a Lasgun would have less affect on it than, say, a kinetic energy penetration. Also concrete is relatively brittle, so it'd likely shatter if hit by a KE weapon.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

The strength of the weapon is equal to the strength of the wielder in this instance, so it's about as strong as a guy swinging a bat or equivilent. I would say it is probably comparable to a mid range hunting rifle. Certainly lethal, but nothing drastic.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> A lasgun is said to be able to shoot through 3 feet of concrete


and just where is this said? thanks in advance if you provide the source


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

If I go by some of the stuff I read in Gaunt's Ghosts and similar Imperial Guard novels, a hit from a lasgun probably won't kill you unless it's aimed at the head or upper-torso, and some characters (don't ask me which ones, I'm terrible with names) survive after receiving several shots (on the legs, shoulders, in the gut, ...) so I think as far as lethality goes, they're pretty equivalent to modern guns (if we ignore the cauterizing properties that can prevent bleeding to death).

However, my personal theory on the subject is that lasguns were preferred as their power packs can easily be replenished by prolonged exposure to sunlight or heat or being plugged into a generator. Seeing how the IG is billions of soldiers strong, it's probably easier (logistically speaking) to provide them with self-charging ammo rather than build hundreds of billions of shells or cartridges and distribute them to every soldier.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

A Lasgun can quite easily sever limbs, decapitate or completely explode a skull. The cauterizing effect isn't such a advantage as people seem to think. It doesn't fully cauterize the wound like some people seem to think so theres still going to be bleeding, heavy bleeding aswell going by the novels. The cauterization is going to make it harder to stop the internal bleeding caused by the wound and is going to do much more damage to organs as it simultaneously ruptures, destroys and burns them all at the same time.

I would take a hit from a bullet any day over a las round.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> A Lasgun can quite easily sever limbs, decapitate or completely explode a skull.


higher calibre assault rifles do pretty much the same

it seems that a las beam isn't a purely heat-based attack...there seems to be some kinetic impact


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

They need to be very high calibre to cut off limbs or literally destroy a head. A standard issue infantry rifle won't even come close


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> They need to be very high calibre to cut off limbs or literally destroy a head. A standard issue infantry rifle won't even come close


World War 2 rifles tend to be of much higher calibre than the rifles commonly used nowadays

a 8x57mm IS round fired from a Mauser Karabiner 98k might take off your arm if it hit you in the elbow


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

It'd be an extremely deadly weapon in modern hands, the biggest issue would be what it would mean for modern-day vehicles. The average infantryman would have fairly potent anti-armor capability.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's a very big might, where as a lasgun is easily capable of doing so.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

There really is no modern day equivalent. Sure we doubtless have guns that can do as much damage (though they might not be easily portable) but tech wise we have nothing that even comes close.

-Lasguns can be recharged using a fire or sunlight. Can you make more bullets that way? Hell no.
-Lasguns appear to generally have very little recoil and require very limited maintainance. They can train savages to wield one in a matter of months/weeks. They can be used as clubs, tossed around in mud and generally abused with little to no impact on operation.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Where are people reading about lasguns shooting off stuff? From what I read in Gaunts Ghosts books, troopers are shot in the leg and it leaves a hole you can see through, but he can still walk. A shot to the head doesn't have the power to go all the way through so it fries his brains?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

.....Not this crap again. Listen laz guns are like bolters and are completely dependent on the laziness of the writer and how awesome/weak they want IG to look. Some books have them only able to cause horrible burns and need to impact vital areas to instantly kill anything...and the more retarded writers have lazer weapons ripping off limbs (mostly idiots that don't understand how focused energy/light weapons work (almost zero impact force). Also for those that understand how these weapons are typically shown they seem to not be cutting weapons as in most books they never leave entry wounds just burn marks so they are probably more of a directed heated weapon so no you wouldn't expect any internal bleeding ect, what you would get is the organs and tissues getting internal burns/damage that would damage or stop the organ function...and yes it would be cauterizes as that is what a heat based injury does ( If you have ever got burned by a super heated piece of metal you would know this.)

In other words 40k gets it more or less right on the table in that a laz weapon is almost = to a auto weapon. In that a laz weapon is more likely to cause disabling injuries while a solid projectile weapon is more likely to cause death do to infection hydrostatic shock (if you don't know what that is please don't bother replying) yet as these are equal in causing casualties (No longer able to fight) it doesn't matter on the table. However as anything in 40k you really jut to pick a writer and go with them and their interpretation as almost nothing in 40k fallows the physics of our universe.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

JelloSea said:


> A lasgun is said to be able to shoot through 3 feet of concrete so a .50 cal round out of a sniper rifle would be weaker.


I can't tell if people are just trolling at this point........Ok assuming your serious I will point out that penetration and damage are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!!!! For instance a FMJ .22 mag has better penetration then a 20 gauge shotgun slug, so tell me what would you rather get hit with? Hell even if you accept the most insane interpretations of laz weapons from 40k you would still want to get hit by one of them over a 50 cal as the wound channel and impact force from a .50cal makes it incredibly un-likely you would survive a hit from one unless you caught it in a limb...then you will simply end up with a missing or crippled limb.


Hell even the table top agrees that such a interpretation is faulty. Laz gun = str3, heavy stubber = (.40k .50 call machine gun) str4.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> .....Not this crap again. Listen laz guns are like bolters and are completely dependent on the laziness of the writer and how awesome/weak they want IG to look. Some books have them only able to cause horrible burns and need to impact vital areas to instantly kill anything...and the more retarded writers have lazer weapons ripping off limbs (mostly idiots that don't understand how focused energy/light weapons work (almost zero impact force). Also for those that understand how these weapons are typically shown they seem to not be cutting weapons as in most books they never leave entry wounds just burn marks so they are probably more of a directed heated weapon so no you wouldn't expect any internal bleeding ect, what you would get is the organs and tissues getting internal burns/damage that would damage or stop the organ function...and yes it would be cauterizes as that is what a heat based injury does ( If you have ever got burned by a super heated piece of metal you would know this.)
> 
> In other words 40k gets it more or less right on the table in that a laz weapon is almost = to a auto weapon. In that a laz weapon is more likely to cause disabling injuries while a solid projectile weapon is more likely to cause death do to infection hydrostatic shock (if you don't know what that is please don't bother replying) yet as these are equal in causing casualties (No longer able to fight) it doesn't matter on the table. However as anything in 40k you really jut to pick a writer and go with them and their interpretation as almost nothing in 40k fallows the physics of our universe.


What are laz guns?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

A .50cal is not an infantry rifle though, its a heavy machine gun or anti-material rifle. For the the purposes of this discussion we were talking about infantry. Now if your going to add an HMG into the mix then why don't we just smash in a lascannon whilst we're at it? Would take the .50 any day over that beast, even though i would survive neither in all likelyhood. So sure i would rather take a lasgun shot over a .50 cal, but they aren't equal comparisons.

I'm an infanteer, i've seen gunshot wounds from standard assault rifles, and i gen you this, you would take one of them any day over a lasgun. The secondary damage a lasgun does is much worse than a solid round.

And so your calling the likes of Abnett a retarded writer? Lasguns have multiple power settings, and a full power weapon is more than capable of taking off a leg or destroying a head. It happens all over the Gaunts Ghosts books. And please, don't even begin to try using modern day science to explain how a lasgun works. They, along with most weapons in 40k simply don't follow the majoirty of our tech or physics.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> A .50cal is not an infantry rifle though, its a heavy machine gun or anti-material rifle. For the the purposes of this discussion we were talking about infantry. Now if your going to add an HMG into the mix then why don't we just smash in a lascannon whilst we're at it? Would take the .50 any day over that beast, even though i would survive neither in all likelyhood. So sure i would rather take a lasgun shot over a .50 cal, but they aren't equal comparisons.
> 
> I'm an infanteer, i've seen gunshot wounds from standard assault rifles, and i gen you this, you would take one of them any day over a lasgun. The secondary damage a lasgun does is much worse than a solid round.
> 
> And so your calling the likes of Abnett a retarded writer? Lasguns have multiple power settings, and a full power weapon is more than capable of taking off a leg or destroying a head. It happens all over the Gaunts Ghosts books. And please, don't even begin to try using modern day science to explain how a lasgun works. They, along with most weapons in 40k simply don't follow the majoirty of our tech or physics.


So in other words your saying this entire thread is useless because the entire point is comparing 21st century weapons to 40k weapons, and as one is complete fiction with no founding in science and the other is bounded by reality. Then my guess is the fictional weapon will win.

Honestly who else thinks these kinds of threads are stupid raise your hand. Now if you compared the 40k auto gun to a las gun that would be a fair comparison as both exist in the same fictional universe.

Also being a good writer doesn't mean you understand science he could be Shakespeare and I would still question him if he started making insane claims about physic's we understand today (I repeat las weapon = laser rifle...so yah we know exactly what to expect from a roughly equivalent laser in real life.) Unless focused light has different properties in 40k then in reality, and if that is the case then we could also make a equally powerful argument that las rifles could cut Sherman tanks in half.

Seriously though interpretations do vary from book to book not every piece of fiction comes from Abnett, and more often then not they vary from pathetic to awesome (note some authors don't even state that las rifles have multiple settings at all). If you deny this fact you are openly admitting that you are just a rabid Abnett fan and haven't read from all the various 40k writer and codecies, a fact that drastically reduces your opinions weight on the matter.

So either acknowledged that this argument is pointless or actually start applying known physics, because as is this argument is one of the stupidest I have had in years.

Case in point "
I'm an infanteer, i've seen gunshot wounds from standard assault rifles, and i gen you this, you would take one of them any day over a lasgun. The secondary damage a lasgun does is much worse than a solid round." until you actually see a equivalent laser injury reproduced in real life your opinion on the matter is kinda pointless.

Seriously in 40k terms this is like a drunken guardsmen talking about how awesome a space marine is to a tech priest, by retelling stories he heard from his regiment commander when they were playing drinking games, and I imagine the tech priest would probably be face palming as hard as I am right now.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Seriously though interpretations do vary from book to book not every piece of fiction comes from Abnett, and more often then not they vary from pathetic to awesome (note some authors don't even state that las rifles have multiple settings at all).


I'm pretty much way outta my league here, so I'll concentrate on what I know : IG codex V5 states pretty unambiguously that adjustable power settings on a las-gun are uncommon at best. 

It's also supposed to be the most widely produced weapon in the galaxy, with many sectors using their own specific pattern of lasgun to suit the needs and strengths of their guardsmen (shorter, less combersome build, retractable stock, inclusion of optical sights, etc ...)

Actually this could be considered a parallel to modern rifles as well : there are numerous builds for numerous purposes, and sometimes they even require different types of power packs. (case in point : Gaunt's Ghosts, one of the books from the "The Lost" omnibus : Tanith lasrifles require size 3 power cells if I'm not mistaken and are given size 7, that don't fit, or something really similar happens in one of the books. I'm really crappy at retelling anecdotes).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> So in other words your saying this entire thread is useless because the entire point is comparing 21st century weapons to 40k weapons, and as one is complete fiction with no founding in science and the other is bounded by reality. Then my guess is the fictional weapon will win.
> 
> Honestly who else thinks these kinds of threads are stupid raise your hand. Now if you compared the 40k auto gun to a las gun that would be a fair comparison as both exist in the same fictional universe.
> 
> ...


Of course its a pointless question and arguement. OP asked if we had an equiavlent, short answer no. Long answer, read the thread.



> Seriously in 40k terms this is like a drunken guardsmen talking about how awesome a space marine is to a tech priest, by retelling stories he heard from his regiment commander when they were playing drinking games, and I imagine the tech priest would probably be face palming as hard as I am right now


Not really seeing what you mean by this at all tbh. We've seen in the books what kind of damage a lasgun does. Fiction or not. Compare it to a real day bullet wound. Its worse. Simple as. Or are you trying to insinuate something else here?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Before I start I will state what most vetrans from 2edd, and necromunda gangers already know (las gun = auto rifle)

Ok to the OP then I will say that for all intensive purposes a las rifle is = to a modern day regular service rifle in any military. The only exceptions in cannon are that las rifles are easier to maintain and are independent of supply needs.

The only official table top cannon that compares the two supports this view, and that source is the good old wargear book. (the only GW book to actually officially compare the two gives them almost identical stats). The only noticeable difference being auto rifles can jam. 

So yah we have 21st century equivalents its called the assault rifle, and just like the las gun it comes in a number of flavors and strengths from I can't kill a small dog to where did the top of jimmies torso go?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

About the adjustable power settings; Lasguns do have different power settings. According to the Imperial Guardsmans Uplifting Primer, a Standard M-6 Pattern Lasgun (the normal one) comes with different power settings.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

You figure they would just operate it on the highest setting at all times, unless it runs a chance of over heating or gives less shots, but even then I could see every single guardsman using the highest setting once things got heavy. Mind you as it is one of those things that has absolutely no in game effect past or present we can safely assume said settings do very little for the rifles ability to actually kill stuff. Maybe it affect over all effective range?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Pretty much plays out how you said it in the first Gaunts Ghosts book. The Vitrian Dragoons have their lasguns on maximum by default, Gaunt advises they switch to half power or they'll run out of power. But later when an Iron Warrior turns up they switch back to full power.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Hell even the table top agrees that such a interpretation is faulty. Laz gun = str3, heavy stubber = (.40k .50 call machine gun) str4.


 
Do we know for sure that a heavy stubber is equivalent to a .40/.50 cal round? It seems to make sense, but I'm wondering if it's ever actually been written down somewhere. I know that boltguns fire a .998 round, which is effing ungodly; look up ".950 jdj round," and then remind yourself that a boltgun fires a round even larger then that, plus ye-olde "mass reactive warhead."

As far as equivalency, based on the descriptions from most writers on the effects of the humble lasgun on a Human body, I'm going to go ahead and say that a lasgun does damage on a scale similar to what a 7.62 mm round would do (NATO or Russian, take your pick) I've never seen anyone lose a limb to a 7.62 round, but they do tend to leave extremely large and messy exit wounds. As far as I can tell from reading the fluff, and as far as my understanding of lasers go, if a lasgun WERE to leave an exit wound, it wouldn't be any larger then the entrance wound. Being a laser, I can imagine that being shot to pieces by a lasgun would be akin to being repeatedly stabbed in the chest by Obi-Wan Kenobi; not a lot of blood, maybe none at all, but horrific third degree burns and neat little punctures in all your vitals. Still, the effect seems to be similar; the method of injury is the only real difference.

I think the real advantage to the lasgun is dependability and accuracy. Being a laser, the lasgun has absolutely zero recoil (or should have none; I'm sure some author somewhere described a character dealing with that) Anyone who has ever shot a rifle at all, no matter what the caliber, can tell you that recoil is one of the main factors in maintaining an accurate sight picture. Having a weapon without recoil, that can fire on fully automatic, is amazing. You also don't need to carry seven or eight magazines that are only good for 30/20 rounds apiece, and then eventually get a resupply after a firefight; you instead have as many magazines as you need, with an infinite source of ammunition (heat, light, etc) 


It's really difficult discussing this, because as it's been said, the physics of the 40k universe differ from what we know to be ACTUAL physics. Pretty soon you end up talking about what a lasgun SHOULD do, as opposed to what the fluff says it actually DOES.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

SonOfStan said:


> Do we know for sure that a heavy stubber is equivalent to a .40/.50 cal round? It seems to make sense, but I'm wondering if it's ever actually been written down somewhere. I know that boltguns fire a .998 round, which is effing ungodly; look up ".950 jdj round," and then remind yourself that a boltgun fires a round even larger then that, plus ye-olde "mass reactive warhead."
> 
> As far as equivalency, based on the descriptions from most writers on the effects of the humble lasgun on a Human body, I'm going to go ahead and say that a lasgun does damage on a scale similar to what a 7.62 mm round would do (NATO or Russian, take your pick) I've never seen anyone lose a limb to a 7.62 round, but they do tend to leave extremely large and messy exit wounds. As far as I can tell from reading the fluff, and as far as my understanding of lasers go, if a lasgun WERE to leave an exit wound, it wouldn't be any larger then the entrance wound. Being a laser, I can imagine that being shot to pieces by a lasgun would be akin to being repeatedly stabbed in the chest by Obi-Wan Kenobi; not a lot of blood, maybe none at all, but horrific third degree burns and neat little punctures in all your vitals. Still, the effect seems to be similar; the method of injury is the only real difference.
> 
> ...


Pretty well said, but I do have to point out that a lasgun would cause burning when the beam hit. That will cause pain and damage as well.

in terms of a equivalent to what we have today. I'd say the FN FAL would be the most likely candidate. 7.62x54mm


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Saying a lasgun magazine is an illimited source of ammo is exageration however, if I'm not mistaken one full clip is good for 60 shots (on half power settings, just enough to kill someone), but then it doesn't recharge instantly when exposed to heat or light.

In the timeframe of a run-of-the-mill firefight, if your lasgun is out of ammo, you're down to your sidearm or your bayonet.
The only exceptions are "cooking" cells by exposing them to naked flames, which still takes several minutes, but the process is risky (can cause overloads) and lessens the amount of shots the power pack can give.

Not to forget that exposure to extreme cold drains power from the packs, a problem not encountered with bullets (unless cold adversely affects their performance, but I'm not knowledgeable in that area)


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

General-jwj said:


> Saying a lasgun magazine is an illimited source of ammo is exageration however, if I'm not mistaken one full clip is good for 60 shots (on half power settings, just enough to kill someone), but then it doesn't recharge instantly when exposed to heat or light.
> 
> In the timeframe of a run-of-the-mill firefight, if your lasgun is out of ammo, you're down to your sidearm or your bayonet.
> The only exceptions are "cooking" cells by exposing them to naked flames, which still takes several minutes, but the process is risky (can cause overloads) and lessens the amount of shots the power pack can give.
> ...


But the difference is that it's better logistics wise to give every guy three powerpacks and need to only provide additional powerpacks in the event that one breaks or is lost, than to give each guy a couple hundred rounds and have to keep millions more in storage to pass out after every battle. While the lasgun doesn't have unlimited ammo, if you look at it over the course of a campaign, it makes the soldier much more self-sufficient than an army using autoguns.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Nave Senrag said:


> But the difference is that it's better logistics wise to give every guy three powerpacks and need to only provide additional powerpacks in the event that one breaks or is lost, than to give each guy a couple hundred rounds and have to keep millions more in storage to pass out after every battle. While the lasgun doesn't have unlimited ammo, if you look at it over the course of a campaign, it makes the soldier much more self-sufficient than an army using autoguns.


 
"Amatuers discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics." :biggrin: The old adage is all too true. And when you think about it, a recoilless weapon with pinpoint accuracy and a renewable source of ammunition is pretty amazing as far as logistics go.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Just to clarify a standard powerpack is actually good for 150 shots (munitorium manual). And that's just one powerpack, you would be carrying quite a few. I don't see a guardsman running out of ammo in a firefight. 

While out in the field you can recharge the powerpacks with solar power or heat and when back in base you can recharge it a charging station.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Nave Senrag said:


> But the difference is that it's better logistics wise to give every guy three powerpacks and need to only provide additional powerpacks in the event that one breaks or is lost, than to give each guy a couple hundred rounds and have to keep millions more in storage to pass out after every battle. While the lasgun doesn't have unlimited ammo, if you look at it over the course of a campaign, it makes the soldier much more self-sufficient than an army using autoguns.


Yes that's true, I even noted it in an earlier post. That does make it superior to all modern guns in that regard.



Rems said:


> Just to clarify a standard powerpack is actually good for 150 shots (munitorium manual).


Thanks for the clarification, though I guess these numbers would vary somewhat depending on the weapon's build, the atmospheric conditions and the power-setting.

Also I just thought of something, in the DoW games lasguns and canons and other energy weapons such as plasma guns do have recoil (at least it looks like it if you watch the guardsmen fire their rifles at 0:53 of the 



) ... is this considered canon or not ? I also remember that lasrifles had recoil in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels so I was pretty surprised when I read here that they were recoil-less.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

SonOfStan said:


> Do we know for sure that a heavy stubber is equivalent to a .40/.50 cal round? It seems to make sense, but I'm wondering if it's ever actually been written down somewhere. I know that boltguns fire a .998 round, which is effing ungodly; look up ".950 jdj round," and then remind yourself that a boltgun fires a round even larger then that, plus ye-olde "mass reactive warhead."


.75 cal, not .998. .998 is a heavy bolter round.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> .75 cal, not .998. .998 is a heavy bolter round.


Hm. I believe in Space Marine the Godwyn-pattern bolter is described as firing a .998 round. And on several of the wikis, it mentions the same thing. Granted, the wikis aren't always correct, and I know some people have a hard time accepting the games as canon...where are you getting that information? It certainly SOUNDS right...heavy bolters are often described as firing 'fist sized bolts of ammunition,' and a .998 round would be around that size.

And as far as lasguns having recoil...as a laser weapon, it shouldn't. But, fluff rules all of course. I'll have to go back and read through Gaunt's Ghosts to be sure.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Keep in mind a bolter round is more of a rocket propelled grenade then a bullet, and if you compare a bolter round with other grenade laucher rounds then the size of the round isn't that unrealistic.


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