# Dual Lash and Obliterator Lists - How to beat



## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

So, this past saturday I had the misfortune to face two CSM lists consisting of 2 x Daemon Princes with Lash of Submission plus maxed obliterators [first game] and two lots of obliterators plus land raider [second game] troops choices consisted of plague marines. [plus one each of a different cult squad, berzerkers in one and noise marines in the other... based on what I saw on the day, Slaanesh Daemon princes just love leading armies in which no one else worships the same god :cray: ]

Now in the first game I got pwned and in the second I was on for a draw before we rolled for a seventh turn and I was lashed off an objective. [I actually enjoyed the second game though; due a to a cool opponent and how tense the game got in the latter stages.]

Thing is though, at no point in either game did I consider myself to have the upper hand. Staying in transports meant the got stalled/destroyed by the heavy weapons but exiting the transports put me at the mercy of lash.

Looking back at it, yes I made a couple of mistakes but its hard to see how I could ever have controlled the tempo as putting myself in a position to assault was nigh on impossible.

I don't know if the issue was exaggerated due to playing Orks [who I am told do struggle against CSM] or just me.

SO how would you beat this list?

[and if you want to make it relevant to the siutuation I was running the following.
Waboss with PK and Nob squad with cybork and painboy in Battlewagon with deffrolla.
Big Mek with KFF, Pklaw with burna mob in battlewagon with deffrolla
20 string boyz mob with Nob, Pklaw in battlewagon with deffrolla
Gretchin in battlewagon with killkannon [this was rubbish but quite fun.]


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Fast attack choices. Also, destroying the princes is the first step to victory. Lash only has a 24" range, so outrange him with some anti-armor. With Orks, this means you need to spring for a Battlewagon or a Looted Wagon with a Boomgun. You need some range on him, and you need to just hammer his princes. You'll never win an objective with them on the board. Once they are gone, go for objectives. If you cant kill them fast enough, you'll lose; If you don't try to kill them at all, you'll lose anyway.


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

24" + 12" move = 36" effective range 

Well, lock the DPs in CC, so they can't lash. As for the Oblis, your Bikers got a Cover Save all the tim, don't they?

Load up Battlewagons, Lascannons need a 6 to Penetrate them. Grabbing Claws on the Wagons can deal with those Land Raiders


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## Broken Sword (Jan 5, 2009)

Speed and number will help you here. You need to get up the board with a few units that can stick with the Lash Prince for a few tuns in CC (Powerclaws will kill him in that amount of time). The rest of your army should have a volume of units headed toward the Chaos lines. This will cause him to have to choose between lashing the incoming assaulters or the most threatening parts of the rest of your army. Sure, his oBlitz will get to throw some plasma around, but taking casualties is what orks do best in number. By turn 2-3, you should Waaagggghhhh!!!! This will get so much stuff in the killing field that he will not be able to lash effectively and hopefully will get you the jump on his zerks - that's how I would fight it with a horde army.

The armoured appoach is to move up with battlewagons, Big Mek and Warboss. You will be insulated against the lash and the Oblitz will have trouble penetrating your transports. You will aslo be able to unleash enough troops to deal with his plaguers in most situations while your Warboss (maybe with a nob squad) can deal with zerks and such. Grabbin'Claws are nice if you can afford them to lock a LR in CC, but I don't think they are necessary.
To kill the princes, roll with three squads of lootas in support, they can dump out a volume of shots that will wound him on a 2 and force enough saves that he could get killed in a single volley. If you don't beleive me about Lootaz, roll the dice for shooting and resolve a shooting phase for them 10 times against a DP (in 4+ cover even) and then come back and tell me about it. - this is how I would deal with them with an armoured/ long range supported Ork list.

Which is better - the Armoured list. Let us know how it worked.


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

I totally agree with Broken Sword!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I dont forsee to much a problem here. Most races pace negative Psychic tests or immunity (Null Rods, Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding, ect,) to Lash Princes. In Orks Case you could use Gretchin to tie em up, or wipe them from the Board with Mass Fire Power, I hear those Flash Gits are no joke. Oblits are awsome but cost a HEFTY amount of Pts and can be tied up in CC and right there your set.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

@ Broken sword - Lootas are a nice idea, volume of shots worked out great for the burnas when in range. Definately something to add to my list.

@ Everyone else - Thanks for the coments but I was trying what the majority suggested. The issue is that though it is difficult to penetrate the BW they have around 9 lascannon shots [turning into melta as they get closer] which effectively stalls the vehicles. If the manage to stall the lead vehicle, the dictates of the terrain can cause a bit of a bottleneck of difficult manoevering. This is the problem with the oblits [prior to being lashed into templates.

Whenever a squad did get into CC with a prince, it got pwned [except for some terrible dice rolling on my part]

Really liking that lootas idea... May have to onclude them in list mkii, I have a year to get em ready


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Lootas, while normally pretty good, aren't especially great against double lash. They may scare the DPs a bit but not the obliterators or land raiders.

The best strategy is really to get as many orks in cc as soon as possible. Battlewagons seem to be the best way to do this and a mob of 20 slugga boyz should deal with obliterator teams and princes. You kind of have to hope that the wagons get there with the KFF and armour 14 fronts. It's probably best to avoid being split up too much if you can, or you will get side shots.

I recommend boarding planks for battlewagons over def rollas. Deff rollas are decent but they don't do anything to vehicles (at least according to the rules used at any tournament I've heard of). A warboss with a boarding plank is a pretty good way to take out a land raider without exposing him to enemy fire or counter-charges. I've played against orks quite a bit and I generally see the wagons themselves as pretty harmless, but boarding planks turns them into dangerous things. Grabba klaws may also help, because if you can stop a vehicle you start hitting it automatically.


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

flash gitz are expensive
What Toughness has a DP btw? 5 or 6?

I have never faced such a nasty Chaos Force ... yet my opponent packs his "lasher" into a bunch of Noisemarines and puts them into a Rhino :no:
Anyone have an idea how to deal with that ... 
I should add I play a speed freak army an most times only setup a SAG as background artillery or if points allow it 12 lootaz but in general no big Shooters that are capable of cracking Rhinos ... I try to take em apart in CC or with Boarding planks
It's a bit of a gamble and with his obliterators I has more chance killing my Pikkupz and BW than I have to get his darn Rhinos open


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Lasher DP is T5, low T for a MC.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

you shouldnt really struggle as orks against lash... just play the numbers game with the princes. lash as a power is good but it tends to make the user overstretch his DP to get it into range. my dp has gone down to 12 boys in a truck before  they can move 13, get out 2 then charge 6 so 21 inch charge basically. he will go down. he is not all that good in combat vs tons of small value guys. the n0b will take 2 off him - the boys only need 5's to hit. i would suggest as orks you put everything in trucks with KFF range and just drive at him - he will be gone plus he wont be able to lash in his turn (statistically anyway). failing that lootas love to know him - 15 in Battlewagon is a nice trick. that combine with 4 BS he is going down! big squads of boys love him aswell. just for the big shooters alone (if you have enough boys) any squad of charging n0bs will own him. his inv save is pish and as said b4 his T is that of a warboss. if not playing with orks just hit him with you anti transport weapons! heavy bolter/stubbers/autocannons/plasmaguns/scatterlasers all work well. i wont even tell you what pask can do in a punisher to a little DP. oblits are difficult tho. i tend to lose mine to shooting (anti tank shots instakill them) failing that open up with everything again. all being armed the same means that they have to take off whole models. just force 12 armour saves on them and you have 1 dead oblit. plasmaguns or lootas - or just boys! boss snikrot is a devil aswell, but dont go without burna's or u will lose (again 5+inv). 

in summery orks should just make him a priority target. he will be overstretched to get you into range of what can really hurt you. maybe even a small unit to act as bait! say nob bikers with painboy. they can survive most things!


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## Broken Sword (Jan 5, 2009)

I just don't understand why a pack of boyz can't pull down a lash prince. He is T5 and has an armour save 3=, which means those wounds will drag him down, that and a PK should kill him in about two turns. He can only kill 4 boyz a turn and that is if he hits AND wounds every turn. 

I have run 2 lash and 9 Oblits with Plague Marines and Orks in BW with 3 squads of lootas is a tough fight. Now if you can do that AND hit his lines with something in turn one or two, then you can really ruin his day. 
I can tell you though that you are fighting an army built upon making you make bad decisions. Do you try to kill the DP and then get hosed by the Oblits? Do you try for the Blitz and get lashed into uselessness? All the while the plaguers are takaing objectives.

A hard fight, but not impossible.

-I still say Lootas to the DPs first. I can tell you from experience that he will either have to hide those princes (making them useless and giving you other targets) or risk getting shot. 48" range means you got him. I have had a single squad of lootaz wipe my DP on turn one quite a few times. Once the DPs are gone, the Oblitz are still there, but now their templates are much less effective. The goal at this point should be to double team his Plague squads and secure your objectives (30+ orks in combat WILL take the plaguers out on the charge!). IF you can destroy the oblitz its bonus, but honestly, CC with his troops will help you stay out of their sights and it will kill his scoring units (hopefully), from there, cover is the name of the game. Cover and your superior numbers will protect you from his oblitz at this point.

Having fought this, I assume you know that Oblitz either appear on the back of the field or end up trying to DS on you. If they stay back, the plan above is the name of the game. If they DS, they are easily singled out by your boys in cc, just don't let them flame you!

Hope this helped.


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

I see!
Thanks!


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Lootas, while normally pretty good, aren't especially great against double lash. They may scare the DPs a bit but not the obliterators or land raiders.
> 
> The best strategy is really to get as many orks in cc as soon as possible. Battlewagons seem to be the best way to do this and a mob of 20 slugga boyz should deal with obliterator teams and princes. You kind of have to hope that the wagons get there with the KFF and armour 14 fronts. It's probably best to avoid being split up too much if you can, or you will get side shots.
> 
> I recommend boarding planks for battlewagons over def rollas. Deff rollas are decent but they don't do anything to vehicles (at least according to the rules used at any tournament I've heard of). A warboss with a boarding plank is a pretty good way to take out a land raider without exposing him to enemy fire or counter-charges. I've played against orks quite a bit and I generally see the wagons themselves as pretty harmless, but boarding planks turns them into dangerous things. Grabba klaws may also help, because if you can stop a vehicle you start hitting it automatically.


Yeah, sound words. I think luck [and mistakes in deployemnt meant that I never cohesively reached CC, those points at which i did, my orks pretty much kicked bottom.

This GT; Deffrollas worked against vehicles [sadly I didn't face many and reached fewer but did imobalise the land raider and blew up a soul grinder] the trade off being that the referee said that weapon destroyed should affect deffrollas [which is fair imo even if not in the rules.]

There appears to have been a bit of a change of heart at GW about this as the anti-deffrolla case doesn't seem to stand up [Plus a game developer told me they were intended to work against vehicle.] Though we probably shouldn't get sidetracked into that particular debate 

I did also have three boarding planks which were again effective when I got to use them.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

A DP may die to a mob of orks in cc but that's the easy part. Catching the thing is hard. 

I think it would be a mistake to underestimate this chaos list. It's won GTs all over the world and maintained good performances ever since it first appeared. I would probably say that it's still the most powerful all-round list available at 1500 points, though at higher values more guns turn up on the other side of the board to shoot it down and the DPs make proportionally less difference.

As mentioned above, while you worry about DPs, obliterators and zerkers charging out of land raiders, the plague marines are quietly taking the objectives and winning the game. That's really the key to this list; even if you can beat the scary stuff you still have a few of the toughest troops in the game, probably skulking in a couple of rhinos and holding objectives.

The problem for orks is probably a lack of flexibility. They have to get into CC to win and the chaos player knows that. If he can get the orks out of their wagons then the game is his, as he can delay units, bunch them up for plasma death and isolate them for charges.


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## stealthrat1 (Jul 28, 2009)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> So, this past saturday I had the misfortune to face two CSM lists consisting of 2 x Daemon Princes with Lash of Submission plus maxed obliterators [first game] and two lots of obliterators plus land raider [second game] troops choices consisted of plague marines. [plus one each of a different cult squad, berzerkers in one and noise marines in the other... based on what I saw on the day, Slaanesh Daemon princes just love leading armies in which no one else worships the same god :cray: ]
> 
> Now in the first game I got pwned and in the second I was on for a draw before we rolled for a seventh turn and I was lashed off an objective. [I actually enjoyed the second game though; due a to a cool opponent and how tense the game got in the latter stages.]
> 
> ...


Ill tell you how to beat those lashes. Lootas. a single squad of 15 lootas is more than albe to take out a daemon prince in one turn. If you are afraid of the lash moving those heavy weaponed lootas then stick em in a battle waggon and shoot out 45 shots at S7 out of it. (assumine you roll well) 45 shots should deal about 4 wounds to a daemon prince. I would always suggest using a squad of lootas in an ork army. I use 3 squads of 15 and they are utterly the sole destructor of everything. My 3 squads of 30 orks just wander around wondering where everything went.


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Well said, but...

What makes you people think that the Chaos player won't hide his DP from LOS?


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

pretty difficult to hide a DP - might give him a cover save - not that he is gonna use it against lootaboys. if he is hiding then just shoot at those rhino's!

Deffrolla's are just too much now some idiot said they could be used against vehicle... i tried playing 4 with rolla's at aspiky event and it didnt end well... rhino's were hit/destroyed then the boys assaulted the passengers... OVERPOWERED! know how to deal with it now tho but i wish i knew b4 the tourney - my bad for not checking. Cant believe they allow it. one is a tank shok move the other is a ramming move! outragous!


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Well, if playing against Orks, having maxed out Obliterators means the Chaos player all has to do is to hide the DP out of sight of the Lootas (they are not that tall, and wings dont count for LOS, dont forget that, a ruin is pefect for concealing them. I've hidden my DPs countlss times), while the Obliterators shoot at any approaching unit until turn 3. Yup, it's turns 4-5 when the DPs are really crucial for Lashing, and if the CSM player has camped an objective, he can lash your scoring units out of 2 objectives (and then blast them with plasma cannons), in which case, the battle fully depends on how many objectives the game is played. At Anihilation scenarios, the above tactic gets even better, as there is no rush to get into LOS at all, just selctive firing on transports, and then lash/blast the passengers. Any unit approaching will have to face the whole Chaos army in cc, which, no matter how numerous the ork unit is, it's still too much to fight against.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

MJayC50 said:


> pretty difficult to hide a DP - might give him a cover save - not that he is gonna use it against lootaboys. if he is hiding then just shoot at those rhino's!
> 
> Deffrolla's are just too much now some idiot said they could be used against vehicle... i tried playing 4 with rolla's at aspiky event and it didnt end well... rhino's were hit/destroyed then the boys assaulted the passengers... OVERPOWERED! know how to deal with it now tho but i wish i knew b4 the tourney - my bad for not checking. Cant believe they allow it. one is a tank shok move the other is a ramming move! outragous!


Lets not start that discussion eh ;p

There are a number of threads dedicated to the discussion if you search the rules forum with 'deffrolla'


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

MJayC50 said:


> pretty difficult to hide a DP - might give him a cover save - not that he is gonna use it against lootaboys. if he is hiding then just shoot at those rhino's!
> 
> Deffrolla's are just too much now some idiot said they could be used against vehicle... i tried playing 4 with rolla's at aspiky event and it didnt end well... rhino's were hit/destroyed then the boys assaulted the passengers... OVERPOWERED! know how to deal with it now tho but i wish i knew b4 the tourney - my bad for not checking. Cant believe they allow it. one is a tank shok move the other is a ramming move! outragous!


The rules are very simple: anyone who uses an apostrophe when talking about a number of rhinos greater than one, is wrong. So:

"I have a rhino."

"I fire my rhino's storm bolter at the rear armour of your battlewagon, inevitably wrecking it."

"Oh no wait, I have two rhinos."

"I fire both my rhinos' storm bolters at your warboss on bike, killing him."

The deffrolla thing is irrelevant. Ask whoever is organising events you are going to or sort it out fairly with your friends. If you want to argue about it, take it to the rules section where I don't have to read about it; especially if you are going to use migraine-inducingly poor grammar when doing so.

Thanks


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

AngelofHope said:


> Well, if playing against Orks, having maxed out Obliterators means the Chaos player all has to do is to hide the DP out of sight of the Lootas (they are not that tall, and wings dont count for LOS, dont forget that, a ruin is pefect for concealing them. I've hidden my DPs countlss times), while the Obliterators shoot at any approaching unit until turn 3. Yup, it's turns 4-5 when the DPs are really crucial for Lashing, and if the CSM player has camped an objective, he can lash your scoring units out of 2 objectives (and then blast them with plasma cannons), in which case, the battle fully depends on how many objectives the game is played. At Anihilation scenarios, the above tactic gets even better, as there is no rush to get into LOS at all, just selctive firing on transports, and then lash/blast the passengers. Any unit approaching will have to face the whole Chaos army in cc, which, no matter how numerous the ork unit is, it's still too much to fight against.


Its actually really hard to hide a DP UNLESS you have a crap ton of huge LOS blocking Terrain. There suppose to be a bit taller than Rhinos. If the DPs Someone made are not I say their in the Wrong. Anyhow even if they hide there DP for 2 Turns thats more than enough time for 30-40 boys to stroll up in Wagons and assault dont you think? The Lootas have done their job by forcing the DP to hide. Lottas are a big key to beat Lashing DPs.


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