# WTF is with all the variants for SM vehicles and lack of for CSM?



## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

This has kind of irked me for a while....

Why is it that the SM have such awesome versions of stuff (Dreadnoughts, LRs, etc.) and Chaos seems to have the standard crap?

It wouldn't really unbalance anything, just make Chaos worthy of their namesake.

If you read into the fluff of CSM, you notice that they say their equipment is dated, but with SM converting they bring new equipment.....ok....what happened to the old stuff? Why can't we have Thunder Hammers and Storm shields? Why can't I have a Nurgly Razorback? I'm sure not all of these things are new....

If anyone can explain this or if you just agree, let me know.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

What do marines get that chaos doesnt?
whirlwinds? crap
venerable dreads? crap
razorbacks? not really needed
rifleman dreads? not really needed
land speeders? not really needed

so you have 2 crap units and 3 good ones that are not required. My nids/blood angels/space wolves/eldar have been doing fine without using any of the above units, why cant chaos? I might as well ask why nilla marines cant get obliterators


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Apart from the fact SM are Games Workshops little poster boys? 

Because Space marines get all the codex love - there is no fluffy reasons why we don't have all the variants... 

So sorry, no answer for that - except that GW ass-licks the Space Marines.

I suppose a SM player will claim chaos don't know how the emperor designed the variants, or something - but that's bullshit. :laugh:



ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What do marines get that chaos doesnt?


 Crusaders..
Redeemers..


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ROT said:


> Because Space marines get all the codex love - there is no fluffy reasons why we don't have all the variants... .


All the vehicle models that are present in the space marines codices that are not present in the CSM dex were discovered after the heresy. This is the fluffy reason they don't have them.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Why can't SM get Oblits? They're amalgams of flesh and tech fused by the warp....aka not human.

And there is reverse engineering.....
but my biggest beef is where is all the old crap? Eidolon of the Emperor's Children wielded a Thunder Hammer.....why can't my termies?

I think we should petition.....


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Simple answer... 10,000 years of developement.

The Horus Heresy happened and sucked all of the CSM into the warp... The loyal legions have had 10,000 years since to develope and improve their tech and addapt it for many different situations... CSM have been stuck in a time warp and so haven't had the chance to make so many alternatives...


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Meanwhile, CSMs in return get Oblits, Autocannon termies (hell, autocannons for infantry in general), daemons, and sorcerers.

Fair trade methinks. Also the fluff bit goes without saying.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

There once was a time when Chaos could get everything that the loyalists could get, and there was a great consternation and gnashing of teeth because the Chaos codex would always be bigger and have more models than the loyalist books.

And the great hand of Games Workshop heard these cries and split the Chaos Codex asunder, cutting units and wargear until Chaos was the same size as the other codices.

Really, it's the same reason why the loyalist codices have more psychic abilities than the Chaos codex does--the codex gets X pages and Y units, and that's that.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

I know the history, but the fact that it openly states that SM are defecting every day means that new tech is coming their way.....so why don't we have any besides the mark IV armor?

And still no one has answered my question of the old stuff...pre-heresy stuff.


Sorcerers? fancy name for Chaos Librarians....

Oblits: Yay....one unit that is damn expensive and can only be a unit of 3.

Autocannon Termies? we get the option of max 2 Reaper Autocannons per 10 termies.

Daemons: yeah, they're helpful if you use a DP....lesser daemons are a joke, same with spawn, and the greater daemon got nerfed and for some reason doesn't have eternal warrior so he's susceptible to instant death. And all the while damn expensive for lack of power. 13pts for lesser daemons....cool.....but they're weak and now the same, you can't choose the type.
Same goes with Possessed...good in theory, but too random for anyone to want to play, and at 25pts per model? come on.

So basically we have 2 good things that SM don't. yay -sarcasm-


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

daemosa said:


> And there is reverse engineering.....
> but my biggest beef is where is all the old crap? Eidolon of the Emperor's Children wielded a Thunder Hammer.....why can't my termies?
> 
> I think we should petition.....


If that was true then the imperium would have everything they have ever taken from the Tau.

Don't be stupid. GW doesn't give a shit what you think. All you will be doing is giving them fuel for their nice fires.



daemosa said:


> I know the history, but the fact that it openly states that SM are defecting every day means that new tech is coming their way.....so why don't we have any besides the mark IV armor?
> 
> And still no one has answered my question of the old stuff...pre-heresy stuff.


SM don't have the STC, mars does. Just because they change sides doesn't mean the mechanicum does.

I don't know why the fuck they don't have TH.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> Apart from the fact SM are Games Workshops little poster boys?
> 
> Because Space marines get all the codex love - there is no fluffy reasons why we don't have all the variants...
> 
> ...


OH right, land raiders, I forgot about those. Probably because they suck so hard. 

Heres why. Chaos gets demons, obliterators, more demons, cult troops, and better basic infantry. 

They need to keep the books separate. So you dont give every army access to the same stuff. If chaos had access to all the units and vehicles of regular marines then it would just be stupid boring. Heres codex noblebright marines, who have 20 units, and codex angryspike marines who have those 20, plus another 15 unique to them. 

You might as well ask why dark eldar cant get wave serpents.
why cant my marines get cheap terminators with combi meltas and power weapons
why cant i get T5 FNP troops
why cant i get ws5 2 attaack furious charge troops
why cant i get a demon that moves my opponents troops
why cant i get terminators that can shoot 8-9 heavy and special weapons.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Here's my answer to the codex thing.....combine the three different codecies for SM and you have a WAY larger book.....Dark Angels, Blood Angels, SM....why? It'd be like Chaos having a separate book for each of the "specialist" armies.....a Berserker Codex? Why do they need special books?

The SM may not have the STC, but they have the tech of their respective units and its not like they drop everything to go to the chaos recruiting office.....they just start doing their own thing....so what happens to their stuff?

And the Imperium wouldn't want the Tau Weapons because they're Xenos....best answer I could give. 

And the Dark Eldar? I have no freakin clue.....


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

STC are the tech, without those you can't make the units. Also, shit gets blown up... Shit that cannot be replaced.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

I agree there should be 3 basic marine books.
Codex: shootan mehreens for dark angels, ultrines, and any other shootan chapter
Codex: choppan mehreens for blood angels, templars, and wolves. 
Give each book a slight divergence in army list. And SCs only available to the respective list.
Then you have codex grey knights. Marines do get too much love. And templar and dark angel players should stfu and roll with the 3 marine books that updated for 5th. You dont need updates as bad as chaos, tau, eldar, necrons, both inquisition factions.

But, giving chaos all the marine variants would just make them dumb. They wouldnt be a separate codex anymore.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm not saying all of them....just some would be nice....I'm sick of getting trounced by the TH/Storm Shield combo.....I'd like to throw it back at someone and still use Chaos....

I just feel we got screwed in the deal, and it kinda makes no sense why everything went "poof" after the Heresy.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

daemosa said:


> Sorcerers? fancy name for Chaos Librarians....


 Sorcerers vs Librarians - Librarians win.



daemosa said:


> Oblits: Yay....one unit that is damn expensive and can only be a unit of 3.


 To be completely fair - Oblits are our best unit.



daemosa said:


> Autocannon Termies?


 These completely suck - no-one takes autocannons.



daemosa said:


> Daemons: yeah, they're helpful if you use a DP....lesser daemons are a joke, same with spawn, and the greater daemon got nerfed and for some reason doesn't have eternal warrior so he's susceptible to instant death. And all the while damn expensive for lack of power. 13pts for lesser daemons....cool.....but they're weak and now the same, you can't choose the type.
> Same goes with Possessed...good in theory, but too random for anyone to want to play, and at 25pts per model? come on.


 We get 1 good unit, 1 okay unit, 1 kinda crap unit, 1 really terrible unit. - Seems fair to me.



daemosa said:


> So basically we have 2 good things that SM don't. yay -sarcasm-


 It probably works out roughly.

I do feel we should have SOMETHING to account for SS/TH - that's the edge SMs have on us. If not TH/SS - then some kinda 3++ conferring- blessing from a god.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

The Space Marines have lots of variants because they got a new codex back in 2008. I imagine it's frustrating but just be patient. When Chaos Space Marines get a new dex you'll (hopefully) have new toys to play with (and for my Space Wolves to smash).


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> But, giving chaos all the marine variants would just make them dumb. They wouldnt be a separate codex anymore.


 This is a good point actually -

if we had everything they had, visa-versa: they'd be the same army ... how dumb would that be. 

if you're that unhappy - you could play renegade SM - their codex, chaos colours. But then you lose Daemon princes and Khârn the betrayer - I don't wanna live in a world where I don't have my buddy Khârn by my side.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Abomination said:


> The Space Marines have lots of variants because they got a new codex back in 2008. I imagine it's frustrating but just be patient. When Chaos Space Marines get a new dex you'll (hopefully) have new toys to play with (and for my Space Wolves to smash).


This is also something to keep in mind. Quit crying that gw loves regular marines more than you. You got a codex when a whole series of shit pamphlets were being released. Codex nids, eldar, tau, chaos, dark angels. All basically copy pasted their 3rd edition book, watered it down, and added something new.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

This is one reason:

This is one full squad of Berzerkers vs a full squad of Tactical marines...




> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Berzerkers vs Space Marine Tactical Squad*
> 
> ...


This is why they don't have all of the other stuff vanilla marines have..


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

ok....match that against a Death Company squad....

Still SM....Still kicking my ass...


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

ROT said:


> This is a good point actually -
> 
> if we had everything they had, visa-versa: they'd be the same army ... how dumb would that be.
> 
> if you're that unhappy - you could play renegade SM - their codex, chaos colours. But then you lose Daemon princes and Khârn the betrayer - I don't wanna live in a world where I don't have my buddy Khârn by my side.



I'm not saying everything....they can have their Dreadnoughts, but a variant of our own for the tanks would be nice.....and some added wargear. Or even variants of our own....


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

daemosa said:


> I'm not saying everything....they can have their Dreadnoughts, but a variant of our own for the tanks would be nice.....and some added wargear. Or even variants of our own....


This I can appreciate, because BA, SW have their own varients, and SM have specialist ammo etc. 

But how many special weapons to Chaos have? Daemon Weapon... Oh, wait, thats pretty much it...


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I totally agree, I touched on it briefly with the last post -

If we can't have the technological advancements - then we need something to boost it.

We have a Land Raider.
They have Crusaders, Redeemers AND Machine Spirit.

There needs to be something to fill that void - for instance buffer up Daemonic Possession to be more like Machine spirit.
There is no reason we can't have more than one 'type' of daemon possessing our tanks either -
Nurgle's Possession - Rolls of 1-3 are void on the damage chart.
Khorne's Possession - Marines can assault 9" out of the Raider.
Tzeentch's Possession - Re-Roll on the Damage chart (Changer or ways)
Slaanesh's Possession - Can fire when it's moved 12"

Each varying in points cost - fairly.

That'd solve that problem; just a few more similarities would even the edge.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Another thread with chaos players complaining. Original. There are tons of reasons why, already listed.

But hey! Why cant my termies take combi weapons? Why cant they all be champions, and for the love of god, its SO unfair my marines cant be initiative 5. 

Point is, enjoy your strengths get over your weaknesses.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Oh, another spoilt Marines player complaining that they have a better codex than we do.

Such a hard-life.

When we have 8 TH/SS termies assaulting out of a Crusader in EVERY SINGLE LIST - come back and moan that we can spend points making our squad of Marines I5.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I played Chaos before Vanilla Marines. Lmfao, try again. The best bart is, the CSM codex has been out for what..3 years? And people still wont stop bitching about it. Get over it.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Another thread with chaos players complaining. Original. There are tons of reasons why, already listed.
> 
> But hey! Why cant my termies take combi weapons? Why cant they all be champions, and for the love of god, its SO unfair my marines cant be initiative 5.
> 
> Point is, enjoy your strengths get over your weaknesses.



Yes....complaining....about the massive gap that GW left us with between the two closest armies in the game.....

But hey, why should we complain? I mean its not like we have 3 different armies in the same category to play, right?

I didn't make this forum to get made fun of....I made it to express the disadvantage we've been given. If you really measure it up, CSM is still underpowered for being Astartes. Yes, we have our own initiative issues and combi weapons, daemons, and oblits.....besides that, we have the specialized units that are basically different versions of each other with their stat lines and not much else. 

And as I posted earlier, Daemons pretty much suck in 40k.

So the weaknesses outweigh the strengths....but thanks for playing.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Good post above - just about sums it up.

One edition the SM will get a tough time- and we will gloat for many years to come.

You say you left Chaos for Marines? Nice one, real step up in the game - Chaos too hard for you? Got no credibility dude. :laugh:


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Yay chaos was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard for me. Coming from the guys who playes world eaters, real difficult to play a run and charge army eh? 

Its nice that you seem to think every SM list runs the same stuff, but no CSM lists do? Awesome. No credibility? How so? you decided that one for me? Thanks for the input. Your bitching just for the sake of bitching. Like chaos players have been doing for years. Save yourself the time, use the "forum search" tool, and find the dozens of threads dedicated to the same bitching and moaning.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

hey never said he left chaos for vanilla marines, just that he played chaos before vanilla. I played chaos for a few years, sold them because my army was roflstomping everyone at the LGS, both with the current and previous codex. 

Its just a different book. Sure its not quite as good as the marine books, but its not much worse either. The power difference is negligible in 95% of the games you can play. 

Regular marines cant get 5 lightning claw I5 guys charging out of a raider that ignores all shaken and stunned results. You can go back and forth on this. Hammerterminators are cool, but land raiders suck, and they dont make or break an army. 

You guys should quit being so competitive, and learn to really play first.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I agree with almost everything you said, barring the learn to play, who said we couldnt play?


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Yay chaos was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard for me. Coming from the guys who playes world eaters, real difficult to play a run and charge army eh?


 As I've said many a time. I play World Eaters because I love the fluff. - But what the hell are you talking about; World Eaters aren't easy to win with.. they're not very good Game-Wise.
I don't care about winning or losing; I play for fun.



Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Its nice that you seem to think every SM list runs the same stuff, but no CSM lists do? Awesome. No credibility? How so? you decided that one for me? Thanks for the input.


 8 People at my shop play Space marines - 4/5 use TH/SS termies.

That's all people ever use. Quitting on an Army, for an easier to use one; loses you all credibility - Cause it probably means you got bored of sucking.



Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Your bitching just for the sake of bitching. Like chaos players have been doing for years. Save yourself the time, use the "forum search" tool, and find the dozens of threads dedicated to the same bitching and moaning.


 Bitching because we have a shit codex compared to Space marines- you wouldn't know, seeing as you get the nicest codex, which borders the over-powered region.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

No not you, the ultra competitive players who cant seem to deal with a land raider with hammerterminators.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Well then CDH - With a fluffy World Eaters army, how do you deal with 16 TH/SS terminators in 70% of the SM lists you play?


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

Somethings Chaos just shouldn't get for gaming purposes 2+/2+ storm shield Terminators that would make Thraka crap him self, also don't forget taking vehicles into the warp is like dropping a gun in saltwater they just don't have the means for repair.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

As Chuggin said, I changed armies, never said I went from CSM to SM right away, and interesting that your such a mind reader you could clearly see that the reason I switched is because I "suck" god your good. I also play for fluff I dont run TH/SS termies. interesting that if you play for fluff your bitching about having an "underpowered" codex. Kind of contradictory.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

I was taught how to play by someone who plays BA, but that's not the point.

My point is why did chaos get denied at least some of the wargear options? 

And to the 16yr old who hasn't said anything useful to the argument: I'd like to see a SM army that isn't meched-out and use a mainly infantry based list.....you think you could do that? Probably not since that's how every single person I've ever played SM with does, bar one who used a Death Company jump list. 


And one more thought.....orbital bombardments? so unfair.....


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> Well then CDH - With a fluffy World Eaters army, how do you deal with 16 TH/SS terminators in 70% of the SM lists you play?


You accept the fact that you are playing a bad army.



> I play World Eaters because I love the fluff. - But what the hell are you talking about; World Eaters aren't easy to win with.. they're not very good Game-Wise.
> I don't care about winning or losing; I play for fun.


Sounds like you are, in fact, playing to win. As you are complaining about losing. Ive made goofy footdar lists what were designed for pure fun, and didnt care one bit when i got stomped by anything ever. 

If you are playing a fluffy army that you know isnt very good game wise, then why complain about it sucking?

I might as well complain about above mentioned eldar list with 1 bright lance getting stomped by mech marines. I knew it was my fault, and I didnt care. You either need to relax and stop caring, or up your game.

I used to be just like you guys. You have to accept the fact that there are some choices that are better than others. 10 grey hunters with 2 melta guns are almost always better than 10 blood claws with plasma pistols. So you have 2 options.

Fluffy army-play to paint and model, or just hang out with friends. Dont care about win or loss
Competitive play-tweek your army, pick things based off effectiveness. 
3-mix. This is what I do. I take a theme and an army I like the look of, and do my best to max it out.



> I'd like to see a SM army that isn't meched-out and use a mainly infantry based list


I used a space wolf army that has not a single tank, and only 3 wolf cav to great effect. I also play a 2k blood angels army where the only tanks are a trio of auto/las preds, though they might get traded for vanguard.



> And one more thought.....orbital bombardments? so unfair.....


For the love of god please tell me this is a joke, and Im just not picking up on the sarcasm through the internet.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Of course I have not contributed anything to the "arguement" because its a stupid, moot point. That has been said hundreds of times, and you felt the needto drag it up again. 

I also like the way you insinuate my age has anything to do with this.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Sounds like you are, in fact, playing to win. As you are complaining about losing. Ive made goofy footdar lists what were designed for pure fun, and didnt care one bit when i got stomped by anything ever.


 I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to have fun. - Playing with a World Eaters army is fun.

What isn't fun however, is everyone at you're local store playing TH/SS SM; The games are the same whoever you play, and the results are predictable.

What's fun about playing WAAC cunts who only play Orks and TH/SS SM?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still think CSM marines should have somewhat more, after all there are just as many major CSM forces as SM yet only one CSM dex to represent the 4+ SM codex's. Seriously I know we will never get as much stuff as loyalists, but it makes sense that we would have more units then any one SM codex. Or better yet JUST REPAIR THE BROKEN SHIT AND WE WILL BE FINE.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> I'm not playing to win, I'm playing to have fun. - Playing with a World Eaters army is fun.
> 
> What isn't fun however, is everyone at you're local store playing TH/SS SM; The games are the same whoever you play, and the results are predictable.
> 
> What's fun about playing WAAC cunts who only play Orks and TH/SS SM?


I could argue that playing world eaters arent fun. As the games are predictable, run at someone and hope to punch them to death. So few elements to that game.

How is an entire army getting rolled by 2 squads of hammer terminators? I used to beat up on a biker/dual hammer squad in raider list with footdar and hybrid eldar. Im not sold on whats giving you issues.

World eaters should knock the teeth out of orks. Anyone really can beat orks. I havent lost to them in 3 years.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

gonna have to side with lord sven kittyclaw here haha.

uuh addressing the OP or the thread title at least...
SM vehicles are..

dreadnought
bike/attack bike
landspeeder 2 major variants
predator
vindicator
land raider 2 major variants
whirlwind
rhino
razorback
drop pod?

chaos have

dreadnoughts
bikes
predator
vindicator
land raider
defilers
rhino

so yeah I guess we have a bit more but like others said chaos has things we dont. I mean you choose your army, and you get what comes with them I guess. And yeah people have been complaining about the chaos codex since I got into the hobby like two and half years ago. In fact, people complain about EVERY codex haha. If one was perfect no one would play against them or everyone would play them.

Yes loyal space marines are GW's main marketed army, so they get more attention, fair enough. They sell big, so GW has reason for it.

Also, My army is not just a silly variant of Codex space marines armies. It plays quite differently.

(necrons currently have ONE actual vehicle)


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Ah but it does...
Every time I make an argument that has validity, someone has to say something, which is natural. But its when the younger group come in and start up, its usually "quit bitching" or "stop being a pussy" or they just generally get angry if its against something they like....which you my friend, have displayed for us generously.

You contribute no facts, no experiences but you reference those of others that have come before. I may have missed similar threads, but it is my right as a member to post things I'd like to discuss is it not? We all play against different opponents and we all have our strengths and weaknesses, but I was trying to see if anyone had a better explanation for this particular scenario than "its all GW fault". I'd like to have some things changed to even the odds, because I'm still new to the game and I'd like to think I play fairly well, but it still doesn't help when I hit the wall of "power of the machine spirit" and "Venerable Dreadnoughts" or just a wall of terminators with TH/SS.

So please, as Rot said, if you have nothing to contribute, leave.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Would you prefer if I said "please stop making useless complaints" To save your thin skin?

the truth is exactly what you said. It's GW's fault. Is it yours? Did you write the book? I know I didnt. 

Deal with the fact your armies has its own strengths and weaknesses, or change armies.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

_My_ thin skin? You're the one getting bent out of shape over this.

I know it's literally GW fault, but was there a storyline portion that I missed that left this out? The way I see it written is the heresy happened and chaos dropped all but basics in their retreat from Terra.....makes no sense.

since I missed it, yes, orbital bombardments are kind of unfair in smaller games.

You may have played lists like it, but you're not almost everyone else....there are exceptions to everything.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Basically its like you said, the general idea is the lost the ability to produce the more high tech equipment (multimeltas, plasmacannons) or the tech wasnt around. And while your arguement of marines rebelling long after the heresy, there are to many iffs there. So this squad went rebel, fair enough you get the tech. But now your also supposed to get marks? and Daemon princes?


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Marks are after a group pledges to a god, and Daemon Princes are if an Aspiring Champion wins the favor of his god......

And a Daemon prince is a formidable opponent, but just as much as a special character....say Mepheston?
Our characters got the short end of the stick as well.....but that's another argument.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

But your missing the point. My marines get storm shield, and LR variants etc.

You get cult troops, chaos marks, Daemon princes etc.

See where this is going? You cant have both dude.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

As I have already said, and you (daemosa) conveniently ignored, your book came out with a bunch of shitty ones. Every book released during those last 2-3 years of 4th edition, except orks and demons, got the short end of the stick. Its not persecution against chaos, it was that jervis shit on everyone.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> As I have already said, and you (daemosa) conveniently ignored, your book came out with a bunch of shitty ones. Every book released during those last 2-3 years of 4th edition, except orks and demons, got the short end of the stick. Its not persecution against chaos, it was that jervis shit on everyone.


I think pretty much everyone was ignored after like page 2 except rot and sven


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I didnt ignore you enexpected! and your support is well noted  

Also, Chuggin I agree with everything you have said, all good points.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

SS and TH are much, much, MUCH better than Marks of Chaos.

Yes we have some things in place of yours... But the point is, these things aren't as good as your things... Making it ultimately UNFAIR.

That's the point you're missing.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Not really, Also seeing as how your a 4th ed dex, and were a fifth. We can do this all day. Agree to disagree I say.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

And the list of other things that I am too lazy to pull up right now.

The point is that SM are geared toward having a heavy mech army and a loose infantry one. Chaos is the reverse. We have suck-ass vehicles, and fairly decent infantry.

Now if you pit infantry against tanks, generally tanks are going to win. I know short of a Chainfist or a Powerfist, berserkers aren't doing crap to a LR, and its going to be damn tough to punch through a vindi with 2 meltas....

Then we get to the Dreadnoughts.....Not really worth it in the CSM list.....too much power to turn against me. Defilers are cool because of the battle cannon, but until you get them close, rather useless, and even with the close combat arms, you're dealing with 4 attacks only...

And the biggest thing with the DP and Greater Daemons, cover is in most cases not an option....so they're bullet-stoppers.

Oblits? 2 wounds an invuln save and a choice of heavy weapons....cool. But then again, same toughness as a marine, slow and purposeful, and damn expensive. Could probably do the same job with a squad of 6 havocs instead of 3 oblits....


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> SS and TH are much, much, MUCH better than Marks of Chaos.
> 
> Yes we have some things in place of yours... But the point is, these things aren't as good as your things... Making it ultimately UNFAIR.
> 
> That's the point you're missing.


Why do you care? You only play for fun anyways. If losing isnt fun then you are playing to compete.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> SS and TH are much, much, MUCH better than Marks of Chaos.
> 
> Yes we have some things in place of yours... But the point is, these things aren't as good as your things... Making it ultimately UNFAIR.
> 
> That's the point you're missing.


In the far future of the 41st Millennium war is unfair.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

why cant BT have whirlwinds, devastator squads, or thunderfire canons?

Why do my rhinos cost 50 points and my razorbacks 70? my land raiders cost more than a monolith.

I cant take sergeants in my troop squads.

I cant take the new variants yet released in the 5th edition Sm codex

why do I get an extra negative modifier when testing leadership to shoot at enemies that aren't the closest?

You see, Its all a matter of bias toward your own army.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Not really, Also seeing as how your a 4th ed dex, and were a fifth. We can do this all day. Agree to disagree I say.


DINGDINGDING

5th edition books function better in...............wait for it.........

5TH EDITION!

Grey knights and necrons are worse off than chaos, and lets see.....oh right they have a 3rd edition book. Im noticing a trend here.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Okay, to give a different perspective not bent on bickering I myself don't play Chaos Marines, but my buddy does and let me tell you this, sure they don't have all the kinky toys marines have but they are not left in the dark in terms of gear. In many ways they have much more viability in terms of wreaking havoc than normal marines have because many of their units are actually good at close combat in contrast to codex marines (barring SS/TH Termies). One of the things you have to accept about the chaos codex is that it was written in 4th ed. where wargear was minimalized for most of the codices during that time unlike 5th ed where now different weapon choices are much more widespread. Not only that but the fact that since it was written EARLIER before the current space marines codex, so of course it didn't have storm shields like it is now! If they did they would only work in close combat. Basically the grass is always greener on the other side, sure you don't have some stuff that the codex marines do, but neither do they in terms of yours, its what makes codices have their own unique flavour, if what you want happened what would be the point of seperate codices? 

To be honest if you really want all the stuff the codex marines have make a counts-as renegade chapter then. If you want both then sorry but tough luck buddy, life ain't fair, and the more you whine, the less you dine....and shine....and mine....for a guy called Mr. Duline...

Oh and in terms of you getting beat by loyalist marines...so what? Adapt, figure out your mistakes, try again and never give up. It may sound cheesy but losing or failing is how we learn from our mistakes and become better overall.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Why do you care? You only play for fun anyways. If losing isnt fun then you are playing to compete.


**facepalm**

Maybe I miss-spoke.

I *TRY* and play for fun - which is ultimately why I've not played 40k a lot lately - It used to be fine; but it's just such an unfair game, Chaos vs SM - it's difficult to enjoy yourself.

I'm not bitching about other codeci, the only other army I have a problem with is Orks (And that's down to both ork players at my store using *EXACTL*Y the same GT list)

Losing is fine with me, aslong as it's a fair game. The point is CSM vs SM isn't fair, because the codeci are unbalanced - therefore it's not fun.

I'm with Sven, agree to disagree; no point trying to argue with 4/5 people now.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Grimskul25 said:


> Oh and in terms of you getting beat by loyalist marines...so what? Adapt, figure out your mistakes, try again and never give up. It may sound cheesy but losing or failing is how we learn from our mistakes and become better overall.


I'm surprised no one specifically said that already. Since daemosa you did say you just keep getting your ass beat by marines with similar lists. What tactics are you using, have you considered this? And I'm just asking as its a fair question.

Lord knows I got my ass handed to me over and over again by certain armies/players until I looked at more and more option for my army and tactics and started to tie and win some. bring something they DONT expect from you as a chaos player. Even if it seems like a terrible list the sheer oddity of it may confuse them enough where they make a mistake in changing a tactic that could help you


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

ROT said:


> **facepalm**
> 
> Maybe I miss-spoke.
> 
> ...


But my point was, I have played armies which are likely worse than your chaos army, and beat up on regular marines. I dont think Ive lost to regular marines for a year now actually. So the problem isnt that its unfair for you, but the problem could be you as a player falling back on "waaaah so broken cant beat them" as opposed to "what could I do to fix this problem"

I understand that majority does not ever equal correct. But if quite a few people who have played as/against both chaos and loyalist marines are telling you the match up isnt that bad, hammer terminators arent horrible, and that you should play better. It might be a good idea to consider playing better.


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

I know that each army has its ups and downs, and that wasn't really the point of this whole thread.

I just thought it odd that since they came from the same place with the same stuff, that chaos just tossed it aside and went with the basics


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Its probably really hard to acquire and repair a lot of that stuff. Technology has stagnated in the 41st millenium, so suppose chaos gets ahold of a baal pred from a blood angels chapter that went rogue. It can never be repaired.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

When did I ever say I play badly? - When did I ever say I never win?

My point is primarily that it's unfair and boring. Don't assume that I'm a crap 40k player.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

I never said you were a bad player or you dont win.

As far as unfair, thats been proven largely false. As far as boring, thats relative.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

A lot of the traitor legions as well as renegades have a stark disadvantage of no longer having supplies and repairs as not only are they cut off from their home world's resources (usually) but also the technical support of the adeptus mechanicus' abilities of repairing and replacing lost parts of machines/weaponry. Sure there are the Dark Mechanicus in the Eye of the Terror and other renegade techpriests but the problem is, they are just as selfish and greedy as their loyalist counterparts, if not more considering the scarce resources in the warp. So as chuggin has already stated, even a relatively new renegade chapter/warband of marines will quickly find some of their newer technology, once damaged or lost, hard to replace and repair. Heck other chaos marines and traitors will probably attack them for them, making it that much harder to maintain and keep such technology. So more or less, the percentage of renegade marines having them is low enough to not have reason to be in the Chaos dex.

Oh and ROT I was never referring to you, I was talking about Daemosa's previous posts. Sorry for the mixup


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

See, that's a viable answer and I thank you. Its all I was looking for. I'm sick of the "you just don't get it because GW said no" reasoning....and hoped I could get an explanation here.

And the petition thing from earlier was a joke. They'd never listen I know. It'd be nice though.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

daemosa said:


> See, that's a viable answer and I thank you. Its all I was looking for. I'm sick of the "you just don't get it because GW said no" reasoning....and hoped I could get an explanation here.
> 
> And the petition thing from earlier was a joke. They'd never listen I know. It'd be nice though.


No problem, good luck with your next games, here's hoping for a better chaos codex for the future! :santa:


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## daemosa (Nov 4, 2010)

Grimskul25 said:


> No problem, good luck with your next games, here's hoping for a better chaos codex for the future! :santa:


Thanks!

Lets hope they beef up Daemons a bit....I'm sick of slogging a Bloodthirster....


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## Kuolema (Nov 4, 2010)

ROT said:


> When did I ever say I play badly? - When did I ever say I never win?
> 
> My point is primarily that it's unfair and boring. Don't assume that I'm a crap 40k player.


Well you ARE complaining how unfair nilla marines are.

Sure the current chaos dex blows we all know that but it is not impossible to win with


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

daemosa said:


> See, that's a viable answer and I thank you. Its all I was looking for. I'm sick of the "you just don't get it because GW said no" reasoning....and hoped I could get an explanation here.
> 
> And the petition thing from earlier was a joke. They'd never listen I know. It'd be nice though.


Dude...... we told you all this several pages ago.:shok:


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

daemosa said:


> I know that each army has its ups and downs, and that wasn't really the point of this whole thread.
> 
> I just thought it odd that since they came from the same place with the same stuff, that chaos just tossed it aside and went with the basics


If this is your real issue the answer is all in the fluff. First off, yes the two forces came from the same area. So, they would have all the same equipment if this were the 32nd millennium. But, after the siege of Terra, there was an event known as The Scouring. Literally all you CSM were hounded into the EOT. After this I don't really think the CSM were that worried about advancing there technology. 

Not to mention, all those Landraider variants were created by loyalist chapters; not legions. In order to suit specific combat needs. Even this is much later on in the 40k verse. 

Gaming wise, if you had all your crap and our crap; then you would be OP. Then, it would be me complaining. Also, I am sure when ya'lls codex gets redone it will be stupid. I am sure all the SM players will be up to their ears in all kind of trickery. 

My advice is to level the playing field. Make a competitive list, and use strategy to win.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

The answer is simple, because they are two different armies, so to mark the difference GW dont simply carbon copy one to the other, same as the craft world and Dark eldar are not identical, because the armies are supposed to be more than different sides of a coin.

I think the next chaos update or if they release legion/power based codexes the loyalist and chaos forces will become even further apart in terms of tech and equipment.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> The answer is simple, because they are two different armies, so to mark the difference GW dont simply carbon copy one to the other, same as the craft world and Dark eldar are not identical, because the armies are supposed to be more than different sides of a coin.
> 
> I think the next chaos update or if they release legion/power based codexes the loyalist and chaos forces will become even further apart in terms of tech and equipment.


 That's all fine, I welcome that - I just hope we get something that can level the playing fields all round.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I can see more deamon type engines in the future of chaos, I like to imagine FW is more than just a resin model producing company, i think they are GWs prototype-rs and test bed, alot of what FW does seems to come to pass in plastic after a few years.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I too would like to see things like Blood Slaughterers (Despite them being hideously ugly) brought into play a lot more. - Maybe that would come with a World Eater Codex; which I long for.

Think of all that fluff, JUST on the World Eaters... :biggrin:


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> All the vehicle models that are present in the space marines codices that are not present in the CSM dex were discovered after the heresy. This is the fluffy reason they don't have them.


Ya, that goes for the older Legions; what about the newer heretics?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Keep looking through the thread, buddy. I believe 3 different people gave the reason for that one.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Yeah, dont hash up this shit again.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What do marines get that chaos doesnt?
> razorbacks? not really needed
> longfangs
> counterattack on standard infantry for the same price
> fast vehicles


This. But really:


ChugginDatHaterade said:


> razorbacks? not really needed


So the one thing featured in every single top-tier tournament winning marine list is not needed? I do not find this true.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He is right, it isn't needed. It is highly recommended, but not needed.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only things id bitch about for chaos vehicles is 1) make the chaos Land Raider troop cap 12, give it some chaosy rule for PotMS, maybe the possibility to change weapon types like the TLLC can be swapped for a TL Auto Cannon for + ___ points 2) more demonic engines, 3) make the defiler AV 13 at LEAST on the front.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Lets not forget the cultist. Give them those little guys to.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ah yes, thank you necro - was reading through the previous 9 pages (most were pointless fighting - thanks  )

the other things id like to mention are drop pods & cheaper bikes/raptors - 1 SM biker squad is 255 points bare bones - but it has a HB - a CSM bike squad is 330 points; no champion, no heavy weapon.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Please forward all complaints to...

GavThrope at gamesworkshop.com (its a joke dont send crap)

lol!


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> He is right, it isn't needed. It is highly recommended, but not needed.


I don't see how else a wolf list sends out enough firepower to compare with IG in trading. Bringing melta guns means you have an av11 vehicle with a single shot, putting your balls in the wind, followed by the short range meaning its not always tactically viable. All this?

No, sir, I do not believe that wins tournaments unless you're cheap and have mythical monster tanks to backup.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I can fit around 30 ML in a list. Any questions?

Other then that, you can use TWC based armies, which can be extremely effective, GH hordes, logan wing, ect, ect.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I can fit around 30 ML in a list. Any questions?
> 
> Other then that, you can use TWC based armies, which can be extremely effective, GH hordes, logan wing, ect, ect.


Dare I make mention of how many more the standard IG list can field as half the points cost?
Albeit some of those missiles are ordnance s10 barrages, instead of small blast ap5.

TWC is alright but it costs a bundle in order to make it across the table, they can scoff at the meltavets however which is nice. I'm not saying they're bad by any stretch of the imagination but taking enough of them to be effective renders you with not enough troops to collect points even if you are vying competitively once you get across the field o' death.

GH hordes is a pretty shit tier list, and logan wing was gimmicky for awhile. Other ideas, or can we finally give chaos marines the ability to fire more than obliterator lascannons in any point effective manner?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Alpha Legionnaire said:


> Dare I make mention of how many more the standard IG list can field as half the points cost?
> Albeit some of those missiles are ordnance s10 barrages, instead of small blast ap5.


Compared to the survivability, versatility, and BS:4 of the wolves, I feel as though to extra cost is well worth it. Besides, what they can take is irrelevant. We are arguing about the NECESSITY of razorbacks, not how much more a higher tier army which does its job primarily with long range weapons. IF you are trying to out shoot IG you are an idiot..... and if you design your lists only to deal with them you are even worse. 



Alpha Legionnaire said:


> TWC is alright but it costs a bundle in order to make it across the table, they can scoff at the meltavets however which is nice. I'm not saying they're bad by any stretch of the imagination but taking enough of them to be effective renders you with not enough troops to collect points even if you are vying competitively once you get across the field o' death.


3 groups of 3, each unit is equipped with TH, SS. Two of said units take a IP on a wolf with a full complement of CW. The remaining unit takes a wolf lord on a mount with his pets. List comes with a full load-out of ML LF and 2 GH. extremely efficient and it will make it to the other line.




Alpha Legionnaire said:


> GH hordes is a pretty shit tier list, and logan wing was gimmicky for awhile.


True, but then again razor wolves aren't the be all end all by any stretch of the imagination. Razorwolves do NOT win GT. In smaller, less competitive tournaments they will do well, but the inherent weaknesses within the list will be exploited by the top tier players and dealt with. Really, they aren't necessary and, in the top level tournaments, they aren't going to win.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

OOOOOooooOO.... Is this a Chaos Codex Complaint Center? I want in!  

((Also where's Gav Thorpe? i wanna junk punch that guy and Alessio for not doing his job and making Chaos awesome. Screw you LoS DP's! Sure your OP but Slannesh DP's are weird and not cool in my book. Horrible fluff wise. xD )) 

Things i want to submit for re-evaluation:

Fabius Bile- Fun, but useless.
DP- hmm.. better stats then a lord, more effective and can be a psyker?! DP FTW!
(srry lord, i like you and you evil demeanor, but you cant beat a daemon that wants to kill shit.)
Chaos Sorc- Fun, but a DP is all you ever need. haha.
Greater Daemon- Generic. cheap which is cool but has its requirements and foot slogs. It would be nice to have more God dependant Greater daemons like Lord of Change or Bloodthirster to add to flavor.
Termies- sure have their uses but upgrades make them pricey. They should have TH/SS just like SM. No reason not too besides marks but thats just to add flavor but also makes them more expensive.
Chaos Dread- unpredictability is stupid. Just make it like a SM dread. 
Viable, but not the best option for its points or dependability.
Cult troops- cool. kinda of a good deal since SM get Sternguard, Scouts, Vanguard, Honour Gaurd, Command Squads, etc. <--- Not really seeing the SM downside here, sure though seeing that their options outnumber our options.
Possessed Marines- Fun, but useless.
Spawn- Fun, but useless.
Daemons- 10pts? hmmm... nope. Useless. (in my opinion since i can get another marine for 5pts more)

Fast Attack
Bikers- a bit too pricey and their is no special character bonuses to make them cooler. Like how the SM White Scars character allows bikers to be troops. (them SM be cunning)
Raptors- have their uses. Fun, but not so much competitive like a Land speeder would be. 
Everything else is somewhat ok. More weapon options for The Landraiders would be nice. Better stats for Defiler would be better also. 
CSM have Obli's. SM have Techmarines. SM have Forge master with conversion beam and can take a Thunderfire cannon. nuff said. Who has more options now?!

Phew.... I think thats all thats on my mind. but i can now see the clear difference between SM and CSM. SM clearly have the upper hand to CSM in versatile and deadly choices that arent straight cheese.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Chaos Dreadnought is the main example of SM vs CSM - They literally copied the unit and made it bad.

But what people are going to say it: if we had the same dreadnought, it'd be boring.

We aren't asking for the EXACT same stuff; but we want choices that can match up to the SM options!!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

ROT said:


> Chaos Dreadnought is the main example of SM vs CSM - They literally copied the unit and made it bad.
> 
> But what people are going to say it: if we had the same dreadnought, it'd be boring.
> 
> We aren't asking for the EXACT same stuff; but we want choices that can match up to the SM options!!


You do. Next argument?


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## Indoctrinator (Jun 6, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the chaos dreadnought has +1 attack, around 10 points cheaper and crazed when compared the the normal space marine dreadnought.

(Depending on the equipment the chaos dreadnought can be 5-20pts less dear than the space marine one)

So it's not THAT bad a deal and quite chaotic.

I haven't had a lot of experience with Chaos dreadnoughts but I plan on giving him another test sometime in the future...


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Indoctrinator said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the chaos dreadnought has +1 attack, around 10 points cheaper and crazed when compared the the normal space marine dreadnought.
> 
> (Depending on the equipment the chaos dreadnought can be 5-20pts less dear than the space marine one)
> 
> ...


 Crazed makes them un-runnable, without taking extra precautions. 

So yes, you get a slightly dearer Dreadnought
We get a slight cheaper Dreadnought which can't be competitively fielded, because it's by definition INSANE.

it is THAT bad a deal.



Aramoro said:


> You do. Next argument?


 Well I appreciate the time taken to structure your response.. but I'm not sure you have an argument?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I have an argument, Chaos codex has things in all the Force Org slots. Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines in the same way as they are not Eldar or Orks. If you want to have all the Space Marine options then play Space Marines, because you know, they're Space Marines, unlike Chaos Space Marines. 

There's a fluff reason as to why you do not have the variants in the same way as Space Marines do not have Defliers.


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## Indoctrinator (Jun 6, 2008)

ROT said:


> We get a slight cheaper Dreadnought which can't be competitively fielded, because it's by definition INSANE.


If I wanted sane I'd be running IG.

I'm not saying it's the best unit in the codex but (1) it's cheap (2) it's got an extra attack (3) the forge world ones are sexah and (4) it's chaotic

It sounds to me you just want to buy a couple of landraiders with TH/SS termies paint them khornate colours and shout loudly "Blood for the Blood God!" and just use the standard SM dex. That is fine.

The rest of us traitors will wait for a new codex and try and think outside of the box in the mean time.

For the glory of chaos!


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Indoctrinator said:


> The rest of us traitors will wait for a new codex and try and think outside of the box in the mean time.
> 
> For the glory of chaos!


 I'm waiting for a World Eater Codex - and In the mean time starting Tyranids.

I hate TH/SS terminators, and even If i used a SM codex, I wouldn't use them - because they're quite 'noob-ish'.

You keep missing the point, which I'm spelling out so obviously in every post.

*I DON'T WANT* SS/TH terminators, I want something that can stand up to them - I want upgrades which can give SM upgrades and technology a run for it's money.

You argue we have Daemons - the only GOOD daemon unit is Daemon Prince.. Lesser/greater/possessed - are all really average units. 

You say we have marks of Chaos .. - What mark of Chaos makes our Termies as good as TH/SS termies? None-of-them, not even ALL of them together, would make them as strong as TH/SS terminators.

Why can't anyone see the flaw?


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## Indoctrinator (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm not getting into this argument largely because it's not mine.



ROT said:


> You argue we have Daemons - the only GOOD daemon unit is Daemon Prince.. Lesser/greater/possessed - are all really average units.


I never said any to this effect thank you very much.

You want a terminator squad that is as good in combat as the TH/SS terminators?

And I'm sure the damned loyalists want a terminator sized model that can change between a bunch of special/heavy weapon-types.

And (* fatally gets into this argument anyway *) your desire to not use TH/SS termies because they appear "noobish" is incredibly vain and misguided (I've seen some very good marine players use them in their lists).

Because of release schedules it can be said that we are _somewhat_ hard-done-by at the moment, I am sure we will get a fresh batch of shiny toys when GW reaches us (hopefully daemon engines as bitsandkits was speculating).

What I would like to point out rather than getting dragged into this whine fest is that Gavin Thorpe stated on his blog that he had hoped/planned for a series of codices to be written for individual chaos space marine legions after he wrote the latest chaos codex. Whether these plans will ever come to fruition (creating a mind boggling collection of space marine variants and no doubt many excited and pleased CSM fans) is unknown. But that does go some way to explain how we ended up with such a generic codex.

Food for thought.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I do think the idea of the themed codeci is brilliant, I am VERY much so looking forward to the idea, hoping it happens.

Our codex at the moment IS very generic as you say - lots of Black Legion influences.

I do think that cult codeci would really help chaos' (very extensive) fluff develop more - we'd see things like Dreadclaws and Blood Slaughters brought into the World Eaters Version -

maybe even result in a rule-set for Primarch Angron (Similar to Abaddon) - so that people who play fluffy lists (Like me) can really go the full way. :biggrin:

I Look forward to being able to field a true 'war-band'.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What do marines get that chaos doesnt?
> whirlwinds? crap agreed
> venerable dreads? crap Not always and fun, just not choas like
> razorbacks? not really needed They do need them to make them alot better. Atleast some units
> ...


Ok time i say somethign contructive is that the reasont hey don't have them was becuase GW hasdn't tought them up at the time the Chaos codex went to print. However i do agree that a Crussader (try telling people thats crap ChugginDatHaterade) would help alot as well as drop pods. 
But chaos do still work unlike other older armys and are likly to get some new toys when they get redone in about 2-4 years


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Crusaders are awesome, but it would be hard to put that into a Chaos marine codex, due to the fluff. I know there are renegade SM, but not all of them are going to show up with an LRC. Sven was pretty spot on though, the SM get the STC variants, and Chaos is supposed to get the options supplied by the dark gods. With that said the current Chaos marine codex is far from perfect and I personally would like to see the addition of drop pods, daemon allies a la Inquisition and the Imperium so that the proper daemons could be used, cultists or Traitor guard units (I've always imagined the CSM to operate with only a few marines and a lot of heretic meatshields) and more god specific options (mainly for HQs, Elites and vehicles). A landspeeder type unit would be nice but probably hard to fit in fluffwise. But I suppose I will just have to grit my teeth and bare it doing the best that I can until a new codex is released. I don't know if someone else has posted something similar but I've just had a busy shift and a few drinks so I don't care.


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## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

I don't understand why people think the Chaos codex is so bad. I know a dude who plays CSM and has won every tournament he's been in (He's quite a prolific tournament player, he travels throughout the state playing tournies). His list has a lash prince, a unit of PM with PG, a squad of zerkers, 2 dreads with ML (He runs them next to eachother so if they go nuts they fire their frag missiles and nothing happens), a trilas pred, noise marines, a defiler and oblits. Most of those units are unavailable to SM and I imagine that's why he beats them.

Personally, the only two times I've wiped an army off the board they've been Space Marines. I'm definately not the best player as I have a lot of trouble with nids and orks, but I find space marines easy to beat. DPs and oblits FTW!

However, I do find it unusual that Chaos do not have access to pre heresy space marine wargear and vehicles; some of the responses to this have cleared some of that up, but where are our drop pods? We get them in FW, but not regular 40k? Why can't havocs take multi-meltas? I think that one's particularly odd.

Finally, it does suck that a fluffy Khornate list isn't particularly competitive. One would think an army devoted to Khorne should be able to smash almost any other army in CC. Here's hoping we get legion specific codices or special characters to that effect.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

ROT said:


> You say we have marks of Chaos .. - What mark of Chaos makes our Termies as good as TH/SS termies? None-of-them, not even ALL of them together, would make them as strong as TH/SS terminators.
> 
> Why can't anyone see the flaw?


Ah I see you're problem, you want the direct compatriate in the Chaos Codex to be as good at least as the Space marine one. That's stupid. 

I honetsly thinking you're over estimating how good TH/SS termies are. I mean I can see your problem but I though of some great ideas that might help and new Chaos Codex cope

Some way of getting lots of high stregth low ap shot, like Plasma Guns or something, even better Plasma Cannons!. That might be a little restrictive though so maybe a unit with switchable firing modes? Maybe that's too fanciful.

If you could somehow control how they moved? No no that's way too stupid, I was thinking of something that would let me move the unit heh, i'm so silly sometimes. 

hmm maybe if you could give your termies the ability to strike before I1, with lots and lots of Power weapon attacks? 

Oh oh I know, how about a chaos plasma taxi style thing. A unit that can take lots of special weapons like plasma and melta guns? I love it when 40K and fantasy units match up so maybe they could be like the Choosen from fantasy?

If you got those kinda ideas in the New Chaos Codex you'd have more luck I think. Tone some of them down obviously.


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## Izzleydill (Jul 11, 2010)

Because every player whines about their codex and will always want more. Why don't the loyalists have more types of troops? Where is our melee specialtists? Or thousand sun anti-meq unit? Where is our *MC*? Where is our walker that fire pie plates? Where is our demonic possession?

The point is they are different codexs for a reason. You have stuff we don't have and we have stuff you don't have. It makes different armies. And lord knows we don't need another version of the space marine codex.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Ah I see you're problem, you want the direct compatriate in the Chaos Codex to be as good at least as the Space marine one. That's stupid.
> 
> I honetsly thinking you're over estimating how good TH/SS termies are. I mean I can see your problem but I though of some great ideas that might help and new Chaos Codex cope
> 
> Some way of getting lots of high stregth low ap shot, like Plasma Guns or something, even better Plasma Cannons!. That might be a little restrictive though so maybe a unit with switchable firing modes? Maybe that's too fanciful.



I know how to kill TH/SS terminators - I'm not completely crap at 40k... but In a fluffy World Eaters army; nothing can deal with them, so it's a problem.
It sucks that we only have 1 way of dealing with TH/SS terminators in the entire codex, which is Lash Princes... 

This is my problem.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

So much for letting this thread die, honestly this arguement will go around in circles till our fingers fall off from typing replies. 

People chaos might suck, chaos clearly doesnt get what marines do. Can we move on now?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You mean it will be much the same as every other argument on the Internet? Oh fuck, say it ain't so!


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I tried to let it die; but It started up again, and I got sucked in. 

I'll go get a mod to close this. :grin:

EDIT: Good progress on the trolling Gen.ahab - I like the sarcastic approach. :laugh:

EDIT2: Just remembered it's not my thread - up to him to get it closed if he wants.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Lmfao, you kind of took the reins though, didnt you?  

And Gen. Keep it up man, Your heading straight for the troll award next year  :good:


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Lmfao, you kind of took the reins though, didnt you?



And with it; most of the heat - so hopefully he wont mind.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ROT said:


> EDIT: Good progress on the trolling Gen.ahab - I like the sarcastic approach. :laugh:


Ho ya, workin it out. Number #1 baby!.... No I'm not..... But a lad can dream.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Izzleydill said:


> Because every player whines about their codex and will always want more. Why don't the loyalists have more types of troops? You do realize they have the best troops in the game? Where is our melee specialtists? Vanguard or Assault marines were usually melee specialists game wise or fluffwise, plus you have honour guard, dreads, etc Or thousand sun anti-meq unit? Sterngaurd fit this picture and for Space Wolves ML spam Where is our *MC*? SM dont have one and dont need one. There is no way fluffwise to make that happen. Sanginour is the closest for the BA. Where is our walker that fire pie plates? Plasma Cannon from Dreads. lol but thats nit picking. Where is our demonic possession? Your not Chaos. The inquisition will hunt those with such heretical thoughts!
> 
> The point is they are different codexs for a reason. You have stuff we don't have and we have stuff you don't have. It makes different armies. And lord knows we don't need another version of the space marine codex. I agree, but also They both do have different stuff, but at the time the Chaos Codex stuff sucks balls. Sure Defie is cool, and Obli's are nice but Who would want to field those guys all the times? Even our special choices should at least be upped a little to stand a chance or to change them from being completely useless. Doesnt mean we want the same stuf in SM codex but that Chaos needs its own good uniqueness.


Overall, we are just complaining a battle of Semantics cause both sides wont ever agree because both have different feelings and perspective to said topic.


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