# Daemon Fulgrim Theory



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I was helping someone out with their Slaanesh list and posted a theory I have had for ages about Daemon Fulgrim and just wondered what you all thought of it?

Basically, here is Fulgrim (or the Daemon that possessed Fulgrim) after it ascended to Daemonhood:











Clearly you can see that:

1. He is badass/awesome and by far the coolest Daemon Primarch 

2. *HE HAS WINGS*


*My theory ... crazy as it is, is that he actually is incapable of proper flight.

*
I would argue that his Daemonic wings can at times propel him forward in short bursts of quick movement or are used for swimming underwater, but for his 'normal' movement he relies on his snake like body to slide and slither across the ground.

The primary use of his wings (apart from quick bursts of movement or swimming) are similar to that of both a peacock and the spitting dinosaur from Jurassic Park, as we can see here:








In other words if he is happy, relaxing, showing off to a group of Daemonettes he has the hots for I would say he would majestically unfold his wings to appear impressive.

If however, you were on the unfortunate receiving end of his wrath, I would imagine that he would unfold his Wings quickly (maybe even changing their colour) to distract and scare the sh*t out of you before he ends your life, just like the power Transfixing Gaze in the codex Chaos Daemons.



So folks, that is probably an overlong amount of writing for such a small detail, but I love imagining my favorite characters in detail, and Fulgrim is definitely one of my all-time favs.

So what do you guys think of my theory?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So tell me Lux, how did you get hold of D-A-C's account?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I would think the wings are for the most part a psychological component as well....the wings are used to draw others in to marvel at its figure....for wings symbolize in the psyche of most freedom....a tool to be infinite....both psychological purposes.... physical purposes....

Slaanesh the patron of passion.....desire....ambition.....truly wings are symbol of this...but just as wings are limited so too are these wings...

In short the wings are tangible manifestation of what daemonhood is.....it appears to be infinite prior to attaining...but in actuality greatly limits you once you have attained it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh good god, this is genuinely happening


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> So tell me Lux, how did you get hold of D-A-C's account?





Angel of Blood said:


> Oh good god, this is genuinely happening


:cray:I'm sorry everyone, it was just a theory, a crazy, crazy theory I wanted to share, I was innocent, innocent I tell you!!! :suicide:


Seriously though ... it's not that bad ... right ? :friends:


EDIT



Lux said:


> I would think the wings are for the most part a psychological component as well....the wings are used to draw others in to marvel at its figure....for wings symbolize in the psyche of most freedom....a tool to be infinite....both psychological purposes.... physical purposes....
> 
> Slaanesh the patron of passion.....desire....ambition.....truly wings are symbol of this...but just as wings are limited so too are these wings...
> 
> In short the wings are tangible manifestation of what daemonhood is.....it appears to be infinite prior to attaining...but in actuality greatly limits you once you have attained it.


You know what? You make a bloody good point!

Its even more significant with Slaanesh, empty promises of pleasure, of flying high above the clouds, soaring like an eagle full with pleasure and delight ... and the reality is that in fact you never use your wings, because you are chained firmly to Slaanesh's throne, but the chains are of your own making.

I'm proud to say +Rep for you Lux


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Why DAC....it is not bad at all....bad is but a duality.......poison not your paradigm with limitations such as good....bad.....perceive entirely infinite as you are now..

The wings upon Fulgrims daemon form is a representation of what he is conceptually....fulgrim strived for perfection...to have no limits no bounds upon what he could do....to be able to play every position in the field with his army....

The sword...the path of perfection offered him freedom from limitation...it offered him wings to soar far above the ground he was stuck upon.....

Ultimately that serpent form you posted is everything he strived to be.....disfigured shell of what he was originally....

In order to strive for some thing concludes you lack it initially or presently...he strove to be perfect for he perceived his current (past form to us the readers) was imperfect....thus he twisted, sacrificed all that he was and had....such as emotional ties...ideology....beliefs....in order to gain his ideal state of perception....to self actualize his own dreams in a tangible manner....

He gained perfection....he just found out far too late that perfection was by no means worth the trade off for losing imperfection...to lose himself to become some thing he never was in the first place...

Fulgrim gained those wings....but soon learned that the precept of "the grass is greener on the other side" is but a idyllic illusion created out of ones desire to escape their current situation that they are not emotionally satisfied with....

He gained the wings he so sought...gained the freedom he wanted....ultimately like so many other ambitions, it turned out in the end it was not what he thought it would be....for perfection is but an illusion


Very interesting thread DAC, I enjoy analytical discussion on the fluff.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Lux said:


> Why DAC....it is not bad at all....bad is but a duality.......poison not your paradigm with limitations such as good....bad.....perceive entirely infinite as you are now..
> 
> The wings upon Fulgrims daemon form is a representation of what he is conceptually....fulgrim strived for perfection...to have no limits no bounds upon what he could do....to be able to play every position in the field with his army....
> 
> ...


I have to be honest, in all seriousness, some of things you post are off the mark by a mile, but this is a bullseye, if I could +Rep you again, I would.


For me, Slaanesh, has always been the thinking man's Daemon.

Sure Tzeentch is the 'traditional' path for those seeking knowledge, but that knowledge is composed of their material surroundings, nature, gravity, the universe, in other words a materialist view on life.

But what about those who seek knowledge through experience, artists, poets, actors/actresses etc who seek knowledge through empirical sensation? 

Only Slaanesh can offer them the 'alternative' idealist knowledge's that they seek.


With regard to your points on Fulgrim, I think a really interesting question is, is he now happy? 

It might sound simplistic and silly, and I don't mean it literally, but as you rightly pointed out, Fulgrim, from the beginning, wanted more, and did always hold out the hope that the 'grass would be greener' somewhere else.

It was only when he killed Ferrus Mannus that he was able to really see how terrible a world he lived in and begged for an escape ... but the daemon within him (himself?) only made him retreat deeper into the recesses of his brain, suggesting to me, that he isn't actually imprisoned by a daemon per se, but is actually trapped within his own fantasies.

In otherword's the 'real' world around him was so tragic, that his only escape was into fantasy. Which would make for an interesting psychoanalytical discussion in itself.

But, which also, in many ways is exactly what Slaanesh is all about. He/She/It doesn't corrupt you or offer you a false paradise, instead, you corrupt yourself through continually seeking the false paradise that you yourself have constructed. Hence Slaanesh, is as much He/She/It's own followers as they are slaves to He/She/It.

Which actually brings us full circle nicely, as we know for a fact, that the Chaos Daemons are themselves the sentient emotions of mortals gathered together in enormous quantity.

Honestly, great discussion Lux.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh good god, this is genuinely happening


I concur. Sweet jesus.


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## Chapter: Limp Bizkit (Aug 2, 2010)

It's threads like these that keep me on Heresy


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

MFW D-A-C was an inspiration for me starting Chaos.










MFW D-A-C pulls a Lux with this thread...


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

To all the naysayers and the poo poo'ers, I don't understand what the controversy is by asking if the Daemon actually uses it's wings?

I mean, look at the flipping size of its tail, plus, why would it fly?

Its just a simple observation based on the picture we have of Daemon Fulgrim.


Besides, even if its 'cuckoo for coco puffs crazy' its still miles better than discussions around 'My Little Pony' and 'Chuck Norris'.

Oh yeah, I said it, and you know what ... I mean it.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I can at least I agree regarding this idiotic my little pony stupidity.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

So Daemon Fulgrim is basically the Slaaneshi version of a chicken....or maybe an ostrich.... yeah, ostrich sounds more manly....please Lux....stop using so many....full....stops.

In all seriousness, I don't see what the problem with this topic is. Sure, it's a little unconventional, but at least D-A-C it isn't throwing out some wild theory that has absolutely no basis in any of the fluff in existence.

My own two cents, who says his wings need to be big and work like a conventional flying creature's does? He is for all intents and purposes a creature of the warp now and they don't seem to be all that bothered by little things like the laws of physics. Not as creative as the Luxian pint of view, but still another perspective.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

on a similar note, Anngrath (or however you spell it)'s wings are tiny compared to his size, but being a bloodthirster and creature of the warp, he can fly anyway. (i think im right in this)

so maybe Fulgrim can, who's to say?


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

I think he stole them from a Night Lords helmet.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> So what do you guys think of my theory?


I think that Fulgrim is a daemon, and therefore has no true physical form (and by extension no _wings_). It does depend on how you view the lore though: is Fulgrim a Daemon Prince (as in did his _'possessed'_ physical form ascend to daemonhood - although this causes issues of whose consciousness ascended) or is Fulgrim (for simplicity's sake) a daemonic-possessed physical form?

If Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince (which significant sections of the lore suggests) then he has no true physical form and when he appears in the material realm it is with a form of his choosing, or one based on how mortal minds percieve the warp energy that makes up his entirety. If Fulgrim is a possessed physical shell (or something similar) then the possessing daemon has warped the Primarch's body into a form more pleasing to it, and thus could further change it to have wings capable of full-flight.

Regardless, you shouldn't solely base your perceptions of the Primarchs on illustrations, especially just one (not sure if that one is even fan-made or not). Its a similar situation to the people who use the illustration of the final duel between Horus and the Emperor as evidence that the Emperor killed Sanguinius... nutters. :wacko:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

:goodpost:

CotE perfectly summed up my thoughts on the matter.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

Don't forget, however, that it's not Fulgrim in there, as he gave his soul to a Daemon. Perhaps the Daemons true form has wings, and it's an affection to closer resemble itself.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

GoRy said:


> Don't forget, however, that it's not Fulgrim in there, as he gave his soul to a Daemon. Perhaps the Daemons true form has wings, and it's an affection to closer resemble itself.


1) Fulgrim's soul still likely (the daemon says as much, though Magnus and Lorgar disagree) still within the shell.

2) Daemons don't have a true form. They are immaterial and inconceivable in the warp it is only the perceptions of men and the constraints of the material realm that give them form.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> In all seriousness, I don't see what the problem with this topic is. Sure, it's a little unconventional, but at least D-A-C it isn't throwing out some wild theory that has absolutely no basis in any of the fluff in existence.
> .



Thank you.




GiftofChaos1234 said:


> on a similar note, Anngrath (or however you spell it)'s wings are tiny compared to his size, but being a bloodthirster and creature of the warp, he can fly anyway. (i think im right in this)
> 
> so maybe Fulgrim can, who's to say?



Where is this guys fluff, I have never read any primary source fluff on him, _Collected Visions_? I also think he makes an appearance in _Aurelian?_




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think that Fulgrim is a daemon, and therefore has no true physical form (and by extension no _wings_). It does depend on how you view the lore though: is Fulgrim a Daemon Prince (as in did his _'possessed'_ physical form ascend to daemonhood - although this causes issues of whose consciousness ascended) or is Fulgrim (for simplicity's sake) a daemonic-possessed physical form?
> 
> If Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince (which significant sections of the lore suggests) then he has no true physical form and when he appears in the material realm it is with a form of his choosing, or one based on how mortal minds percieve the warp energy that makes up his entirety. If Fulgrim is a possessed physical shell (or something similar) then the possessing daemon has warped the Primarch's body into a form more pleasing to it, and thus could further change it to have wings capable of full-flight.
> 
> Regardless, you shouldn't solely base your perceptions of the Primarchs on illustrations, especially just one (not sure if that one is even fan-made or not). Its a similar situation to the people who use the illustration of the final duel between Horus and the Emperor as evidence that the Emperor killed Sanguinius... nutters.


1. I see what you (and some others) have suggested about Daemons not having a true physical form, and whilst I agree its true to an extent as they are merely portions of their Master's own power, Greater Daemons, as we all assume Fulgrim was possessed by, do seem to have enough autonomy that they have a 'distinct' or even 'preferred' physical shape/form. 

I believe at the end of _Fulgrim _when talking with Horus, the Daemon explicitly stated that he would be making a few 'alterations' to Fulgrims form. These seem to some extent predetermined, and reflective of their true forms.

In other words, the Daemons various hosts throughout its existence (which is infinite) will have all shared the same features.


2. Just as a quick side note, 'Fulgrim' didn't get elevated to Daemon Prince, the Daemon that possessed Fulgrim was elevated to Daemon Prince. Fulgrim is either long gone, or still trapped within the recesses of his own subconscious.

As for the Daemon warping the shell of Fulgrim which he now possesses, it is so valuable because it can ... seemingly ... hold a Daemon infinitely, whereas a human host is said to be too weak to remain in for long, hence why daemons like machines. But a Primarch, well that's a serious gift for a Daemon to possess.


3. I understand the point about one illustration, but I guess what I was getting at, was a flying Fulgrim seems odd compared to a slithering type.

Its just a wild conjecture on my part, but more minor topics have been discussed, with even less evidence. 

I just thought the use of Wings as both a distraction and to show off was in many ways more Slaaneshi and was just sharing a cool way to view a minor part of the Chaos Fluff.

At the end of the day, there are facts, but alot of it is open to debate and our own imaginations, I was just sharing a bit of my own imagination for people who maybe aren't that up to date with what Slaanesh is all about.




GoRy said:


> Don't forget, however, that it's not Fulgrim in there, as he gave his soul to a Daemon. Perhaps the Daemons true form has wings, and it's an affection to closer resemble itself.


Yep, that's what I'm saying above, the Daemon does have (I believe) to a certain extent a 'true form' and he alters the shell of Fulgrim he possessed to better reflect his 'own' appearance. Excellent point.




MEQinc said:


> (
> 
> 
> 1) Fulgrim's soul still likely (the daemon says as much, though Magnus and Lorgar disagree) still within the shell.
> ...



1. At this point 10,000 later some people argue things might have changed and he might be obliterated or gone (Fulgrim's remaining soul I mean) I personally see no reason for this to be the case, and I too believe the real Fulgrim remains trapped within the prison of his own Daemon possessed body.


2. See above, but basically, again, I believe Greater Daemons, have enough autonomy to have 'distinguishable' or 'unique' aspects to their daemonic forms.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Where is this guys fluff, I have never read any primary source fluff on him, _Collected Visions_? I also think he makes an appearance in _Aurelian?_




I think Angrath first shows up from Forge World (Siege of Vraks I think) and then makes a minor appearance in _Aurelian_.



> 1. I see what you (and some others) have suggested about Daemons not having a true physical form, and whilst I agree its true to an extent as they are merely portions of their Master's own power, Greater Daemons, as we all assume Fulgrim was possessed by, do seem to have enough autonomy that they have a 'distinct' or even 'preferred' physical shape/form.


Have you ever read the _Bartimaeous _trilogy? It's not 40k but it has demons (djinn) quite similar to those in 40k (in my opinion anyway). One of them states that in the 'Other Place' they don't have true forms but all meld together (kinda like the warp) and that only by being named and bound by magicians do they come to have a form. Now whenever a djinn manifests it is free to chose whatever form it wants however many seem to gravitate towards a particular 'favourite' form. The character suggests that this is mostly due to familiarity (it seems familiar shapes are easier to take) but there are also hints that some of it is a subconsious decision (gender mostly). Personnally I figure that's how daemons work in 40k too. So while the daemon possessing Fulgrim doesn't have a true form it has come to prefer wings, four arms and a tail primarily due to familiarity. And I'm not sure that one can say a 'familiar' form is their 'true' form. 

This form is also one that's commonly associated with Slaanesh so it's possible that the daemons manifestation is influenced by the summoning worshippers (though this of course begs the question as to why humans believe Slaanesh looks like that, sort of a chicken and egg thing). 



> 2. Just as a quick side note, 'Fulgrim' didn't get elevated to Daemon Prince, the Daemon that possessed Fulgrim was elevated to Daemon Prince.


Isn't a Daemon Prince a mortal ascended to daemonhood though? I've never heard of a daemon becoming a Daemon Prince (they become Greater Daemons instead) nor have I heard of daemons ascending.



> 1. At this point 10,000 later some people argue things might have changed and he might be obliterated or gone (Fulgrim's remaining soul I mean)


Actually I was refering to Magnus and Lorgar in _Aurelian_ who both state that they don't see any of Fulgrim left inside the daemon (this of course occuring at most a year or so after the events of _Fulgrim_).


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> [/i]
> 
> Isn't a Daemon Prince a mortal ascended to daemonhood though? I've never heard of a daemon becoming a Daemon Prince (they become Greater Daemons instead) nor have I heard of daemons ascending.
> 
> Actually I was refering to Magnus and Lorgar in _Aurelian_ who both state that they don't see any of Fulgrim left inside the daemon (this of course occuring at most a year or so after the events of _Fulgrim_).


Hmmm, those are both really good points.

I'll start with the 2nd one first. 

I haven't read _Aurelian _and probably never will unless it comes out for Kindle, but that sounds like a really interesting gem from A-D-B.

Maybe the Daemon just got rid of Fulgrim? Or his existence just vanished? But I'm curious as to why he would be 'let go' at all. The Daemon no doubt should have gotten immense enjoyment even after 1000 years of having trapped Fulgrim, so where the heck did he go lol?


On the first point, when you read it like that, if the Daemon was already a Greater Daemon then as you rightly say, becoming a Prince wouldn't mean much.

But ... maybe this suggests the Daemon, whilst Slaaneshi to an extent, was one of the supposedly smaller (but still very powerful) minor daemon entities that have their own warp kingdoms.

Don't forget the Laer seemingly worshiped him in that sword.

So maybe elevation to Prince, was Slaanesh's way of recognizing and legitimizing the rule of this powerful daemon?

Could be some really cool food for thought in that.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Yeah, I'm also wondering why Fulgrim would get ejected (if what Magnus and Lorgar say is correct). I mean, Slaanesh hasn't gotten sick of Lucius yet and it's been 10k years.

As for ascendants, maybe it was simply granted more power. Or elevated to greater daemon status. I must admit, my knowledge about chaos daemons is pretty weak (I do have the codex... somewhere), but I think I remember an instance of a minor daemon of Nurgle being elevated to greater daemon status. 

As for appearance, I find the idea that how daemons appear to us is influenced by our own individual perceptions and ideas quite interesting. Kinda like Galactus from the Marvel comic universe. Being an abstract being, every race who views him perceives him as looking different (their subconcious influences them to shape him into something that their concious mind could recognise and accept). Makes you wonder how other races perceive creatures of the warp.

I'm also wondering about MEQinc's comment about being a familiar form. Where would that initial familiarity come from? Like mentioned before, a daemon doesn't really have one true form. So maybe that form was what was envisioned the first time said daemon was summoned by those who summoned it. But this would imply that humans (or whoever was doing the summoning) have some degree of influence as to how daemons perceive themselves within the physical plain.

Excuse me if I'm waffling. Like I said, my knowledge of chaos daemons is lacking. And I think I used the word summoning way too much for even my own liking.

Edit: I just had a random thought. If that form of Fulgrim is simply a mutated/altered shell instead of a daemon manifestation, does that mean it can exist within the material plane without all the troubles regular daemons face?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> But ... maybe this suggests the Daemon, whilst Slaaneshi to an extent, was one of the supposedly smaller (but still very powerful) minor daemon entities that have their own warp kingdoms.


That's certainly possible, though it seems unlikely to me. The EC philosophy is perfectly reflected (and perverted) in Slaanesh. The daemon appeals to those same ideas and emotions in Fulgrim and brings out very stereotypically Slaaneshi behaviour in the EC (and the Laer before). So it seems to me that these ideals and emotions are what the daemon feeds (for lack of a better word) off. Seeing as these emotions are all directly tied to Slaanesh I don't see how there's room for a seperate entity to exist in that realm.



> Don't forget the Laer seemingly worshiped him in that sword.


Or they worshipped Slaanesh through the daemon-blade. Hardly an uprecidented occurance.



Chompy Bits said:


> Yeah, I'm also wondering why Fulgrim would get ejected (if what Magnus and Lorgar say is correct).


The only thought I have here is that maybe the daemon felt threatened? Perhaps it believed that Fulgrim might gain control again or otherwise tamper with it's plans so it squashed him to prevent it? 

Personnally I really dislike that idea and prefer to assume that Magnus and Lorgar are mistaken (as after all Magnus is projecting and Lorgar doesn't know everything).



> So maybe that form was what was envisioned the first time said daemon was summoned by those who summoned it. But this would imply that humans (or whoever was doing the summoning) have some degree of influence as to how daemons perceive themselves within the physical plain.


Mortal emotions have a clear impact on the denizens of the warp, our emotions make them. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that our emotions would also 'shape' them or at least imprint certain ideas into their minds. Clearly this effect continues into the material realm as some sources have daemons being banished simply through faith (which would be a warp construct). 

Another thing to bear in mind is that daemons don't really have senses, they can't really perceive themselves or others. The first time a daemon is summoned it would have no prior knowledge of how the material realm works, how shapes and forms are created or how to percieve things. I imagine that this would be a highly traumatic experience (can daemons be traumatized?) and so the daemon might simply latch on to the first thing it can, the summoners perception of its appearance. 


I'm really just spitballing ideas here though, as I don't think any fluff comes anywhere close to the depth we're looking at.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> 1. I see what you (and some others) have suggested about Daemons not having a true physical form, and whilst I agree its true to an extent as they are merely portions of their Master's own power, Greater Daemons, as we all assume Fulgrim was possessed by, do seem to have enough autonomy that they have a 'distinct' or even 'preferred' physical shape/form.


The point we were making though, is that in no capacity do daemons have a physical form (not even when they are manifested within realspace).

There are three quotes from _Codex: Daemons_ that are relevant here:

_"...Instead of having a true physical shape, daemons project a form conjured from the warp's raw energy. The bizarre and inhuman appearances projected by daemons indicate their presence, status and allegience to a Chaos God. These insubstantial forms echo (or are echoed by) the shapes adopted by daemons in real space, and the children of a Chaos Power will create and project similar forms."_

_"As with the Chaos Gods and their realms, these forms come to reflect the emotions a daemon is based upon and have been shaped by centuries of feeding on belief. In the real universe a daemon's form is no more physical than it is in the warp, though it may appear to be made of normal matter. In fact they are beings of Chaos, of magic given shape and depth. When manifested in the material universe."_

and: 


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As for the wars of the Chaos Gods, well they don't actually consist of legions of daemons marching on other gods' realms, nor huge pitched battle warfare as we would imagine it (and how it seems to be described in the codex). That is merely an illusionary image mortals attach to occurences within the warp in an attempt to instill a measure of reason and order and therefore to understand it. What would we truly witness if we were able to watch a daemonic war? Well nothing, because there is no light within the warp to reflect such things. And if we viewed it psychically, assuming we would have not been driven insane by this point, it would not be as it truly is, because we would attach a vision onto the actual goings-on. What really is occuring is merely an _"infinitely complex interweaving of tidal energies and swirling power"_ as the following quote from the codex (which sums up this well) puts it:
> 
> _"Few creatures of the material universe can look at the Warp first hand. Psykers can send their minds Into the Warp, for example, while the Navigators of the Imperium have a third eye that allows them to observe the Immaterium from their spacecraft. Even with these supernatural senses, it is impossible to truly see the Warp, for its energy has no substance, no light to refract and reflect, no matter to create scale or distance. Filtered through even the extra senses of a psychic being, the Warp is an analogue created by mortal minds to comprehend the incomprehensible, to instill order and reason on pure chaos. Where there is an infinitely complex interweaving of tidal energies and swirling power, the observer creates a fantastical landscape. Even these visions have considerable potency and have been known to drive a man to madness. his senses and thoughts utterly inadequate to deal with the phenomenon of the Warp. Castles float through skies of fire, rivers of burning blood pour upwards from smoke-wreathed chasms, and structures of inconceivable geometries push the mind into madness. Behind all of these visions lies the swirling energy of the Warp, constantly feeding on the fear and despair of those who witness its power."_





D-A-C said:


> I believe at the end of _Fulgrim _when talking with Horus, the Daemon explicitly stated that he would be making a few 'alterations' to Fulgrims form. These seem to some extent predetermined, and reflective of their true forms.
> 
> In other words, the Daemons various hosts throughout its existence (which is infinite) will have all shared the same features.


Again though, the point is daemons do not have _"true forms"_ beyond an incomprehensible mesh of warp energy. _Wings_ are irrelevant.



D-A-C said:


> 2. Just as a quick side note, 'Fulgrim' didn't get elevated to Daemon Prince, the Daemon that possessed Fulgrim was elevated to Daemon Prince. Fulgrim is either long gone, or still trapped within the recesses of his own subconscious.


How can a daemon be elevated to daemonhood though? Daemonic ascension is the process by which a mortal becomes a daemon, surely a daemon cannot become a daemon?

The key element is that we don't know what has happened with Fulgrim (the Primarch) or the Daemon-Fulgrim since the Heresy. Could the Laer Daemon have forced (or bargained with/tricked) the consciousness of the Primarch-Fulgrim (considering it was already essentially imprisoned by the daemon) to ascend to daemonhood? 



D-A-C said:


> As for the Daemon warping the shell of Fulgrim which he now possesses, it is so valuable because it can ... seemingly ... hold a Daemon infinitely, whereas a human host is said to be too weak to remain in for long, hence why daemons like machines. But a Primarch, well that's a serious gift for a Daemon to possess.


Indeed. But in regards to the wings, if the daemon had altered the Primarch's physical body beyond recognition already, who is to say he couldn't further alter it to have full-flight capable wings?


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Also, even though those wings on the picture don't LOOK like they could sustain flight ... we have to take into account (1) wing size may just be an artistic vision thing from the drawer and (2) can't Daemons (the Greater ones at least) manipulate reality and use Warp-Magic and stuff ? So isn't it possible that they could fly without needing completely scale-accurate wings ? (evolutionary-wise)


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How can a daemon be elevated to daemonhood though?


It can't, but I assume it can be given a powerup (essentially, a boost in permanent warp energy) by its patron.

I imagine a daemon's power is proportional to the amount of warp energy it has within its "body". That's why daemons "eat" souls when people die, it's a tiny powerup. It also seems to be much easier than "eating" raw unordered warp energy, otherwise daemons would be doing that instead.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> It can't, but I assume it can be given a powerup (essentially, a boost in permanent warp energy) by its patron.


Still, by technicalities it would not be a Daemon Prince.


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## Lepaca (Oct 19, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Still, by technicalities it would not be a Daemon Prince.


The Daemon-Fulgrim becoming a Daemon Prince thing is something I have been wondering about for ages. Some clarification would be most welcome!


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## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Honestly, great discussion Lux.


And now you are blessed by Slaanesh to see with your eyes the purpose in my doings.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That is from the HH art series. Admittedly, it's the only post-Heresy image we have of him, IIRC. However, it's lacking a Laeran blade. Admittedly, he didn't always use it - but that was where Sarkell didn't have full control. Now it makes no sense - unless he so happened to find 3 other Laeran Blades.

Colours a little off as well - the Emperor's Children range from a girly pink in their current Chaos State, to a more Magenta colour, rather than Imperial Purple seen in that picture. Yes, colour scheme's matter so little - but when Fulgrim's derangement grew so high that he paraded in his birthday suit before his fall to Chaos, why exactly does he have such "normal" armour? Although done later, the artwork on the Primarch's Anthology shows his appearance and is hence "more" canonical than someone simply painting their idea of a Daemon and calling it a name to get published. Hell, there are some mong ass pictures from the Visions of Heresy that make your eyes bleed. And not just that every Dave Gallagher picture looking like Edvard Munch's "The Scream".



> The wings upon Fulgrims daemon form is a representation of what he is conceptually....fulgrim strived for perfection...to have no limits no bounds upon what he could do....to be able to play every position in the field with his army....


At which point, if he was so perfect, why can he not fly, turn invisible, make a sandwich, and asexually reproduce trillions of himself to take over the galaxy at the same time? I mean, the only thing that's stopping me doing that is not being asexual.



> The sword...the path of perfection offered him freedom from limitation...it offered him wings to soar far above the ground he was stuck upon.....


Then where is that sword? I can see three identical blades, and assume a fourth - there was only one Laer sword. Unless he managed to somehow travel back 10,000 years, pick up a few more before he killed them (but still leave 1 so that later on when he destroyed it at the head of the Emperor's Children, he would still be corrupted). 



> Ultimately that serpent form you posted is everything he strived to be.....disfigured shell of what he was originally....
> 
> 
> > No, it's simply a Laer with a human head. The Laer were not perfect - if they were, the Emperor's Children would not have defeated them, and neither did Fabulous, Darling, attempt to incorporate their physiology into the astartes aside from several of their inner organs - such as the shriek.
> ...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I heard there is a story being written about the Emperor's Children trying to exorcise the daemon out of Fulgrim. 

I agree though, I for one do not believe the possessed body turned into a daemon prince. I have a feeling Fulgrim somehow regains his body (from much thought on Slaanesh's plans) in order to ascend into Daemonhood. Because, even though Fulgrim's body is that of a primarch, I'm not sure that it could go through all those changes and still retain its mortal presence in the mortal realm. Sooner or later the body would be destroyed.

I know we have heard of the Anathema, that Fulgrim used to kill Guilliman, could future fluff actually conjur that into the Laer Daemon Sword?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Double checking seems the Laer sword was given to Lucius.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> II agree though, I for one do not believe the possessed body turned into a daemon prince. I have a feeling Fulgrim somehow regains his body (from much thought on Slaanesh's plans) in order to ascend into Daemonhood. Because, even though Fulgrim's body is that of a primarch, I'm not sure that it could go through all those changes and still retain its mortal presence in the mortal realm. Sooner or later the body would be destroyed.


The problem with this (the first part) is that Fulgrim doesn't appear to want to be a Daemon Prince. He surenders control because he's horrified by what he's done and the daemon talks about how it's going to torture him with all the things it will do. Either Fulgrim either gets brainwashed/stockholmed into accepting Slaanesh's offer before gaining control (in which case, would he really want to take control? He'd already have accepted the daemons actions) or the daemon needs to maintain control to maintain allegience. 

Also, we really have no idea what a Primarchs body is capable of. They are at least theoretically immortal (baring injury as we have zero evidence of them growing infirm), heal with redonkulous swiftness and are otherwise potentially immune to the effects of daemonic possession. Further, daemon-Fulgrim lives within the Eye (and to my knowledge has never left) where time works differently, so he might have only been possessed for a few hundred years. Also, it's been speculated in the past that the possessing daemon inflicts less strain on the host in warp-realspace intercrosses (as the primary strain appears to be the daemon exerting itself on reality, which is less difficult in the Eye).


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