# GW vs Chapterhouse



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

While the case in general is not news at this point, I believe this update from BoLS is (*SOURCE*):



> Justice Kennelly has handed down a Summary Judgement on the case. Fasten your seatbelts...
> 
> _*"For the reasons stated below, the Court grants Chapterhouse’s motions for judicial notice and grants each side’s summary judgment motion in part and denies it in part." - Justice Kennelly*_​*GW vs CHS Summary Judgement*​ _via recap (read it - this one's fairly easy to wade through)_​ ​ Some excerpts:
> 
> ...


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Basically, from what I can gather reading that, Chapterhouse IS in violation of GW copyright... which all of us with a brain knew all along. 

Basically, Chapterhouse are gonna get assraped for violating copyrights... its just they want to clear all the other crap out of the way, IE. chapterhouses dumb attempts at countersuing, first.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

GrizBe said:


> Basically, from what I can gather reading that, Chapterhouse IS in violation of GW copyright... which all of us with a brain knew all along.
> 
> Basically, Chapterhouse are gonna get assraped for violating copyrights... its just they want to clear all the other crap out of the way, IE. chapterhouses dumb attempts at countersuing, first.


Well that and there apparently is a list of things that can't be used in the suit (someone commented that the Fleshtearer's symbol was ruled that it wasn't unique enough for example). But yeah, the specifics of what can be used in the suit have been settled and now the legal beat-down can begin.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I am like Grizbe, completely not surprised with that ruling. We all knew that the case was eventually going to play out like this, it was all just a question of how long and how much money the guy was going to spend fighting a losing battle.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Midge913 said:


> I am like Grizbe, completely not surprised with that ruling. We all knew that the case was eventually going to play out like this, it was all just a question of how long and how much money the guy was going to spend fighting a losing battle.


Last I had heard Chapterhouse's lawyer was working pro bono on this one. Likely to build rep, as a favor to someone who is a friend or maybe on a "only gets paid if they win" contract.

Either way this may not be costing Chapterhouse anything.

And while I forgot to bring it up, I too am not surprised. Actually my money is GW walking away winning this one, and likely using it to shore up anything that they can't protect by changing them to things they can.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I see that change coming ... one good thing that could come out of this. GW will be forced to put out products and not just play fuck-boy games with us, the customers. Does anyone really think that the incredibly long lead times on releases are not for a reason?

I understand that they must show profits to shareholders ... and that is a part of the problem. The company should not have to push profit at all costs ... this is the way to economic ruination. This I have witnessed before.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

It was an interesting read. 

I would have liked to have seen the Claims Chart though to see what and what wasn't considered unique enough, which if I totaled it correctly is about 25% of the list.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

It's a mixed ruling, and there's still more of the case to go ahead. 

I found this comment from the BolS link quite informative:


> If you look at the ruling more closely, Judge Kennelley is saying that the total of the relative proportions and other elements are what make it copyrightable. CHS can product shoulderpads that don't look like GW shoulder pads and still fit marines, but they need to look substantially different.
> 
> The judge also rejected many of the copyright claims GW makes around iconography. He upheld (rightly, IMO) things like Space Wolves icons and such which were new created by GW, but did not uphold their copyright on the Flesh Tearers' icons.
> The general theme seems to be that the judge is inclined to accept CHS's claims that they are allowed to produce add on products and they can even, under limitations, state what GW kits those items are for, even if GW has trademarks on the kit names. The judge is also generally inclined to honor GW copyright claims on specific items, but not as broadly as they care.
> ...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

maddermax said:


> It's a mixed ruling, and there's still more of the case to go ahead.
> 
> I found this comment from the BolS link quite informative:


That's actually the quote I ran across as well. It's why I believe GW will take the rulings from this case to iron-clad their IP as best they can to prevent companies like Chapterhouse from copying them.

Additionally I think this will be the trendsetter for the after-market kits on the way forward. Either way I'm interested just because I think this will shake things up even more.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

It is encouraging to me that the Iconography is deemed to be free of IP, well in the case of readily identifiable symbols any way.

Bet they're spewin' they made the Smurf's symbol Omega !


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Bet they're spewin' they made the Smurf's symbol Omega !


Yeah except it's up side down (don't really know if that makes any difference, legally speaking).


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Any one remember what happened with Armorcast?

Basically GW couldn't stop Armorcast making BaneBlades, Cannons of Khorne and other Epic goodies in resin in a 40K scale when they were not producing their own.

They could stop them selling them in the UK but not the US.

They in the end just bought Armorcast, shut them down and after a while ForgeWorld was born.

Chapterhouse may well be hoping for a similar result, who knows.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

moshpiler said:


> Yeah except it's up side down (don't really know if that makes any difference, legally speaking).


an upside down omega is the same as the symbol for the unit of measurement "Ohm" - its used in electricity.

so i am almost certain that the UM logo was tossed out for IP claims


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Viscount Vash said:


> Any one remember what happened with Armorcast?
> 
> Basically GW couldn't stop Armorcast making BaneBlades, Cannons of Khorne and other Epic goodies in resin in a 40K scale when they were not producing their own.
> 
> ...



They can hope, but their products aren't up to snuff for that. Anyone can make shoulder pads and rhino doors-- hell, I've done it for my own armies. Games Workshop would gain nothing from going the Armorcast route with Chapterhouse. It's better to just do what they do-- offer a huge smattering of different shoulder pads that're basically cast on demand so Chapterhouse can't really sell anything that's GW's IP. I mean, if you look at Chapterhouse's catalog, it's been drastically reduced lately, and I imagine it will continue to go that way.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Just for completness the full judgement can be found ehre >>> THE JUDGEMENT <<<

If you dont want to down load this as a PDF you can go to the courst document link page >>> LINK <<< and scroll to the bottom to open the document from there.

I dont think this is good news for Chapterhouse. The number of summary judgements against them far out weights those for them. A lawyer would know better but wouldnt the balance of payment fall in favour of GW in this case? I know there is still a trial to go but that is for a very specific items in that list. The court had a tricky time making a clear judgement so I think it will come down to how well the case is argued in front of a jury.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

humakt said:


> Just for completness the full judgement can be found ehre >>> THE JUDGEMENT <<<
> 
> If you dont want to down load this as a PDF you can go to the courst document link page >>> LINK <<< and scroll to the bottom to open the document from there.
> 
> I dont think this is good news for Chapterhouse. The number of summary judgements against them far out weights those for them. A lawyer would know better but wouldnt the balance of payment fall in favour of GW in this case? I know there is still a trial to go but that is for a very specific items in that list. The court had a tricky time making a clear judgement so I think it will come down to how well the case is argued in front of a jury.


I can't speak for how it works in the UK, but I know in the US, in non-criminal cases, establishing intent has a role in decisions. And I think it's pretty obvious to everybody what Chapterhouse's intent was. They can say whatever they want, but unless you're the type to check if "gullible" isn't actually in the dictionary, nobody's going to believe they weren't trying to ride GW's intellectual property coattails.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Wow. This is really interesting. The number of forum posters on 'other' websites that now have huge amounts of egg on their face is laughable.

Reading most forums you would have thought that gw had no case and were going to get utterly destroyed in this ruling, but that's not what's happened at all. Glad some sanity has been put into this case.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The Son of Horus said:


> I can't speak for how it works in the UK, but I know in the US, in non-criminal cases, establishing intent has a role in decisions. And I think it's pretty obvious to everybody what Chapterhouse's intent was. They can say whatever they want, but unless you're the type to check if "gullible" isn't actually in the dictionary, nobody's going to believe they weren't trying to ride GW's intellectual property coattails.


Pretty sure that in IP and Copyright cases there is no requirement for intent. I think that is covered by the requirement for the plaintiff to notify someone if they believe they are infringing their IP.

If they tell them to BOG OFF then you go to court.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Pretty sure that in IP and Copyright cases there is no requirement for intent. I think that is covered by the requirement for the plaintiff to notify someone if they believe they are infringing their IP.
> 
> If they tell them to BOG OFF then you go to court.


Which is exactly what happened IIRC.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

One thing I'd think would happen is that anything that GW can't copyright, like some of the chapter icons it seems... well, they'll just change them or never mention the chapter again... thus rendering production for anything other then their own stuff pointless.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

GrizBe said:


> One thing I'd think would happen is that anything that GW can't copyright, like some of the chapter icons it seems... well, they'll just change them or never mention the chapter again... thus rendering production for anything other then their own stuff pointless.


Knowing the way GW likes to safeguard it's IP, this is kind of what I assume will happen. I think GW is going to use this case to make sure they are as solid as possible in terms of their IP so they can crush anyone who tries to muck with it as the rulings in this case will likely help them in others (like what kinds of things are protected).

Of course this doesn't work against China since they typically give two sods about IP.....


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I can't see them giving up the Ultramarines


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I can't see them giving up the Ultramarines


people said the same about the squats........


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I can't see them giving up the Ultramarines


I can see them changing them a little if they need too.

Then again they might be one of GW's approved "protected paint schemes" that basically says that the total package is protected, even if the shoulder pad with the symbol on it is not.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

And the Ultramarines are from henceforth turned into one of the Lost Legions, and the II returns from the ashes, with unique inconography, to reclaim its rightful place

...at least we can hope :laugh:


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

With reguards to the smurff issue, that could be why GW have put DA in the starter set, instead of smurffs, as the DA icon is rpobaly covered by there copyright.
So could that mean smurfs going on the back boiler, and other chapters with copy righted icons comeing to the fore, as well as possibly new chapters with copy righted new icon designs????


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Alright, after reading through the PDF here's what I got:

GW can claim copywrite on:
- the design of the Space Marine shoulder pads.
- the Chaplain helmet design (they can't copywrite a skull, but the specific way the design comes together with the red eyes can be)
- the various Space Wolf symbols are stylized enough to be considered copywritable
- as is a stylized dragon (described as "The dragon depicted in entry 63 is based on the particularized design, shown sideways with its mouth open and pointed scales behind its head.") [I believe this is the Black Dragon's chapter symbol]
- the Flesh Tearer shoulder pad is copywritable (though the individual parts of the saw blade and the tear drop shape are not and because they are two simple geometric shapes even when combined they don't count due to the non-unique nature of the shapes themselves)


Things that GW were specifically mention to not be able to claim copywrite on:

- A pile of skulls (unless GW adds more to the design that is)
- The Flesh Tearer's chapter symbol of a circular saw shape and a teardrop (for reasons I stated earlier)

There is a lot more about why Summary Judgement couldn't be handed out, but from what I understand it seems that a number of Chapterhouse's arguements were thrown out. Some of GW's were as well, but were mainly regarding things they could not actually claim copyright on.

What I draw from this (without any legal training mind you) is that GW can claim copywrite combined elements of simple shapes, but can't claim those elements on their own. Stylized elements (such as the way they present the Space Wolves, or the Black Dragon symbols) are copyrightable in their entirety though as they sufficently stylized and unique in nature to be copyrightable.

Additionally elements like the Space Marine shoulder pad is copyrightable due to a number of reasons (and not just because they're massive, but their scale for the models and so on).

Basically everyone who thought that CHS had this in the bag are going to be extremely butthurt as it looks like they didn't have half the defense they claimed they did.

From here it'll go to trial by jury as the judge as decided that it comes down to how similiar one views the remaining items of contention. Because of this the judge did not want to pass judgement on them and an impartial jury will be used instead.

I tried to find GW's claims chart (the 110 items they'd submitted in the suit that were up for contention) so we could create a tracker of sorts of what had been removed from the suit or given judgement, but I haven't been able to locate it. If anyone can find it that'd help us get a a more specific list of what's left and what's been done.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

fynn said:


> With reguards to the smurff issue, that could be why GW have put DA in the starter set, instead of smurffs, as the DA icon is rpobaly covered by there copyright.
> So could that mean smurfs going on the back boiler, and other chapters with copy righted icons comeing to the fore, as well as possibly new chapters with copy righted new icon designs????


I still really can't bring myself to think that the flag ship chapter would be dumped over the vague possibility of an IP battle.

Just the very fact that it is so synonymous with 40k because of the smurfs you could almost look upon the inverted Omega being a trademark of sorts, works for the watch makers. 

As Zion has found tho' the Gold/white Omega on a Blue background could well be a copyrighted combination of public components.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Thats more or less what I got from the document Zion. Its pretty damn hard to find the 110 items. If you read one fo the earlier documents it references lots of stuff that has not been entered as written submissions as they are pyhsical evidence. Also it is spread over numerous documents. 

As I am at work I dont have time to investigate further but if nobody has done it by the weekend I may get round to it.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I still really can't bring myself to think that the flag ship chapter would be dumped over the vague possibility of an IP battle.
> 
> Just the very fact that it is so synonymous with 40k because of the smurfs you could almost look upon the inverted Omega being a trademark of sorts, works for the watch makers.
> 
> As Zion has found tho' the Gold/white Omega on a Blue background could well be a copyrighted combination of public components.


not dumped, but put on the back boiler, untill the whole IP/copyright (and what GW can legal rip off and claim as there own........lol) case is over and done with


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

fynn said:


> not dumped, but put on the back boiler, untill the whole IP/copyright (and what GW can legal rip off and claim as there own........lol) case is over and done with


It's less what GW "rips off" and more what the final product looks like as a whole. GW isn't contending they own such things as wings, or space marines, but when the parts come together along with their specific visual style you get things like Sanguinor who is copyrightable.

I don't think the Smurfs are going anywhere for a while, infact if anything I think GW might just tweak their chapter symbol just a bit to make it even more unique so that it can be copyrighted properly and protected.

I assume actually that that will be the plan for GW in the near future to ensure that they'll be covered in the cases of anymore IP related shenanigans in the future.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

A good example of GW obviously understanding how the wind was blowing IP wise is how they have renamed their entire paint range to copyrightable names.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

humakt said:


> A good example of GW obviously understanding how the wind was blowing IP wise is how they have renamed their entire paint range to copyrightable names.


They didn't just rename them, they reinvented just about every color. This means that older paint schemes are even harder to recreate, but you have a much bigger palette to work with.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Boc said:


> And the Ultramarines are from henceforth turned into one of the Lost Legions, and the II returns from the ashes, with unique inconography, to reclaim its rightful place


And so the Prophecy of the Rainbow Warriors returning in the Imperiums darkest hour comes to fruition....... :thank_you:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I am an evil son of a bitch, so I was hoping they`d get slapped Samsung style, although in miniature proportions of course.


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