# Chaos : Defiler or Vindicator



## Spot The Grot

Which is more useful ?

The vindicator is tougher and packs a bigger gun and a far simpler role.

The Defiler is good at shooting but not as good as the vidicator, but he is a walker and has good CC qualities.


----------



## MaidenManiac

If you only go for 1 of them then go with a Vindicator w daemonic possession, its cheaper and can generally take more hits.

If you plan on running several then either will do. 3 Defilers walking down the board whilst shooting battlecannons will be hard, just like 3 Vindicators will be. The only diffrence is if you want the big gun to have some CC options or if you prefer tanks. 
Imho Defilers should always be equipped with extra twin CC weapons, instead of flamers or reapers. They do have fleet, and 6 DCCW attacks on the charge is scary


----------



## Syko515

honestly Vindicators ,IMHO, are better then Defilers. vindicators boast superior front armor, and present a much smaller target making them easier to hide from enemy fire, aswell as putting of the incredible blast that it does. in my experiance it doesn't matter how you use a defiler, sooner rather then later it gets popped and your out its stupid amount of points way too soon. i put them with Chaos dreads, possessed, and spawn....on the shelf never to see the light of day until their made better.


----------



## darklove

From a Necron perspective I would be more worried facing a Vindicator because its av is higher and it is more mobile and can tank shock etc.. Defilers pop quite fast to Necron shooting. Just my thoughts in case you are fighting Necrons.


----------



## Steel Nathan

I'm going to have to go with Vindicators. Not only are they generally smaller in size (important for LoS/cover reasons), but the Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon as a better Strength and AP value then the Defiler's Battle Cannon. There's a huge difference between the two when selecting their targets (Defilers intend to suck against Termies ). And they are cheaper too. 

It's true that the Vindicator has a crap range, unlike the Defiler, but ther better front armour makes it up IMO. A defiler is also a walker, and is much slower then the Vindicator (but it does provide attacks in close combat, so chalk one up for the Defiler :wink so it would take more out of a defiler to get into decent cover and be able to fire reasonably. 

While the Defiler may seem more frightful then the Vindicator, the Defiler also has pretty weak armour. It's true that the opponent can shoot the side of the vehicle (which the Defiler has a clear advantage), but that's why you keep your Vindicator somewhere safe, perhaps the side being completly covered by ruins or something. 

Those are my two cents anyways.


----------



## DarKKKKK

I would have to say Vindicator, although recently both have been sucking for me
Mainly both have problems with scattering, but thats roll of the dice :ireful2:


----------



## CamTheApostle

Wow... not a single post that is purely pro-defiler. We walker lovers must speak out for the rights of our daemonic iron crab.

I say defiler for a few reasons, but I will get to those in a second. The clear advantages of the vindicator are:
1) more powerful weapon
2) better front armour
3) built-in dozer blade
4) 25 points cheaper
5) 'faster' because its not a walker
6) better BS
7) vehicle equipment (smoke launcher & searchlight)
8) smaller (less of a target)

Now, I will tear them apart one by one.
1) A great weapon, yes. But very short range. Also, the defiler's CC attacks are the same strength (and it gets more).
2) But the side armour isn't as good. And it doesn't get daemonic possession for free.
3) laadi-freaking-da!
4) its only 25 points, and the good upgrades cost more then that.
5) but walkers get CC attacks, can climb ruins, and never get struck on their rear armour in CC. Plus, it has fleet.
6) yeah, but with a ordinance weapon that is less of an issue.
7) see #3
8) Defiler can reposition its legs to change LOS and base-to-base in CC.

Okay, now the part where I say why a defiler is better.
1) lots of close combat attacks at S10
2) its ordinance weapon has a range of 5', instead of 2' (thats 2.5x longer).
3) more guns on it (or more cc attacks)
4) Free daemonic possession
5) better side armour
6) It has fleet, so it can move 7-12" for a simple move and 13-18" to assault.
7) Cooler model.

A good tactic I have used with the defiler (two extra DCCWs for free) is holding it back with the rest of your artillery and pounding your enemy. That way, you can make use of the main gun and if they attempt to outflank you and take out your artillery, you can charge the defiler in and kill the flankers dead.

Lets hear it for the chaos battle crab! Can I get an amen?


----------



## Refyougee

I don't really see why the Defiler is considered to all that slow, it can still run which gives it a 9-10" average move. Also if a Vindicator gets immobilised in terrain (Something which doesn't happen to the Defiler) it's going to be MUCH slower.

Really, to me, only the gun matters. I've only fought *against* Chaos but I find that if the army is sporting a Lash or two, the Vindicator is scarier. If not, I feel the Defiler is a better choice because it will be more difficult for the Vindi to get a good shot off.


----------



## newsun

Get some oblits and call it good.


----------



## Spot The Grot

One thing i must say for/against the defiler , they simply are aimed at more than a vindicator , people think "look its a rhino with a big gun" when they see a defiler they think more like this "aaaaaaa a crab ! " .

Having a worse armour and being a bigger target then work against it because it becomes a much easier target to kill.


----------



## Mud213

I think I will be boasting both in my armies but I did get two defilers for a reason :wink: Since I really don't like how cheesy LoS is, I am going to try and avoid using it so will be using the more versatile defiler(s) more often.

But really, the reason I got into Chaos in the first place was for the Defiler, so I really _must_ vote for that one.


----------



## CamTheApostle

Spot The Grot said:


> One thing i must say for/against the defiler , they simply are aimed at more than a vindicator , people think "look its a rhino with a big gun" when they see a defiler they think more like this "aaaaaaa a crab ! " .
> 
> Having a worse armour and being a bigger target then work against it because it becomes a much easier target to kill.


Okay, that is one thing to consider. Psychologically, the Defiler appears more threatening. This leads people to shoot at it more often. However, that can be a great advantage as well. The more shots an enemy fires at your defiler, the less he has to use against everything else in your army. 

Consider the following: a defiler has 5 weapons, and ignores stunned and shaken. That means at least a 3rd of any successful armour penetration roll will do absolutely nothing to it. Also, it takes at least 7 glancing hits to destroy it. So, while a lucky shot can take it out, it does make a good fire sponge.


----------



## darklove

I once played a game of Necrons vs CSM + Daemons, 2k per team. There was a Defiler that was trying to be all menacing but I popped the Defiler shot 1, turn 1. The guys were so miffed that the Defiler was so easy to kill that their alliance fell apart really fast.

Vindicators last a lot longer vs Necrons, but are not necessarily doing more damage... or any damage...

To be honest - they are both good and bad. It all depends on how good a player you are really. If you suck, then you lose no matter which you chose.


----------



## Steel Nathan

I agree that it's somewhat of a psychologically thing between the two, but an experienced player knows that the Vindicator is not to be ignored either. While it may be true that the Defiler may attract more shots to destroy it, the Defiler may not last long enough to actually receive those shots. The defiler is not really that well armoured, and a couple S8+ weapons can bring it to it's knees easily.


----------



## Wraithian

The thing to consider about the defiler, though, is it is a great rear-flank guard. Blasting away at close to max range with the battle cannon, you're not going to be within range of anything able to return fire (other than railguns, conversion beamers, other battlecannons, etc). And, if something deep strikes nearby, like terminators, the defiler at least has a chance if it's assaulted, unlike the vindi when it's hit with chainfist toting termies.

Both are good, but for different reasons. It entirely depends on your own play style.


----------



## CamTheApostle

darklove said:


> If you suck, then you lose no matter which you chose.


No kidding.



Wraithian said:


> Both are good, but for different reasons. It entirely depends on your own play style.


And my play style happens to involve giant, daemon possessed battle crabs that have a tank cannon lodged in their chest.

But more seriously, play style is important in every unit choice. So is luck, enemy, terrain, and luck. 

On the subject of enemies, I feel there isn't an army out there that the defiler is specifically vulnerable to. The vindicator, however, could be very vulnerable to swarm melee armies, such as 'nids and orks, due to its short range and being a regular vehicle instead of a walker.


----------



## Steel Nathan

CamTheApostle said:


> But more seriously, play style is important in every unit choice. So is luck, enemy, terrain, and luck.


I find it very ironic that you have luck listed on there twice :laugh:. 

But you're right, that's how everything goes with each unit. Some may like Defilers, some may like Vindicators.


----------



## darklove

...why ironic? :dunno:


----------



## Imperial Dragon

I'm with both while the defiler gets a little more because i like the model, i find in smaller games the defiler does better (more so in 1k point games) it can be apart of your attacking flank and also help destroy space marine and hordes while in large games the extra front armour can really help vsing so many railguns and lascannons.


----------



## Steel Nathan

darklove said:


> ...why ironic? :dunno:


I don't know about you, but some people have terrible luck. So they need extra luck to survive the wretches dice. 

I'd try to explain it further, but I'd just confused everyone further, and probably myself as well.


----------



## arachnid

To be fair, the defiler gets a light and smokelaunchers as well.


Anyhoo, i say the defiler wins hands down.

Three words: Versatile strategic asset

*Need something blown up?* (_and we always do, don't we?_)
-Defiler can reach it

*Need that dug in squad removed?*
- Defiler runs in and grinds them to dust (after blowing stuff up, ofc)

Oh, noes Outflankers trying to gank my rear armor!
-Defiler chews them up and spits them out (but first, some explosions!)

*My poor rhinos get shot up 1st turn all the time!*
- The defiler scares people beyond what is logical, consider your metal boxes somewhat safe for at least the first turn if you bring a spider.


Good looks / big silhouette
Yes, id did just type that as a pro, big silhouette means it can obscure a lot of units.
Plus it attracts fire like nobodys business, fire that would have killed off your scoring units/transports, had the defiler not been there.


Those are some of the pros of the defiler, but as always with a "swiss-army-knife" of a unit, it's success depends largely on you, it's commander.

Cons: Difficult for the standard powergamer to figure out without treating it after it's statline alone, which nearly always fails miserably.

They take one look at the statline. cost and mathammer around a bit and figure that it's weaksauce and adds some more oblits instead. :taunt:



Now then the vindicator:

pros:

Umm, str 10 good ap blast? 

Decent front armor


And thats pretty much it, dozer blade doesnt really matter much 
(what are you doing in that swamp anyway?!?)

*Cons:*

*Static* 
(6 inches a turn aint much, unless you want to waste the shot and gun it)

*Daemonic possession* is a must unless you want it silenced for the main parts of the game (try it against a shooty Tyranid fleet if you dont know what i mean)

(Since the vindi's sole selling point is the big blast, every turn it doesnt/can't fire is a waste of it's points)

*Defenceless against an assaulting unit *
(where's that thick armor now, eh? taste my chainfist, Foo!)
*
Short range.*
This restricts it's tactical use, and the versatility of the rest of your army.
As it denies the middlefield to both your own units and the enemy, unless you want to risk blowing your own guys up that is.



And thats pretty much it.

I'm not saying the vindicator doesnt have its uses, theres a psychological aspect to it, but nowhere near the effects of a defiler due to its short range and ease to kill/silence it.

To get the most of it, you pretty much have to use possession and a lash of submission in your list.

Lash is a different chapter, but the defiler's effectiveness doesnt hinge on it like the vindi can be forced to do.




And yes, i'm biased, so sue me :biggrin:


----------



## Spot The Grot

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I think the main reason we include either is probably the battle/demolisher cannon. The fun these guns bring is endless. Ive had my experiences. 

Lash of submission + demolisher cannon + 10 nobs and warboss = whole squad dead. That was a game to remember.


----------



## arachnid

aye, fun times with much belly-aching has been had, hehe


Ill never forget the time i assaulted a vindi with fist-toting champ-squad.
he completely wiffed his attacks, next turn the vindi backs up one inch, promptly places a pie-plate over the whole 10-man unit and rolls a hit on the scatter..

oh man, the carnage! :shok:

I have a feeling the vindi's driver didnt see much for the rest of that game, with all the chaos-gore splattered against the hull .


----------



## Steel Nathan

I agree with pretty much all of your points arachnid. There are about 2-3 points I want to add/argue/explain about though: 

You gotta remember that the defiler is only ap3, so it can't actually outright kill most units. Dangerous units such as Terminators or such won't get killed outright easily from the Defiler (it can use his high save, rather then forcing to use his crap invunerable save). And, if Termies were going to assault the vehicle in the first place, you should have other units that should be in front of it. 

If it was from deepstrike, then the Vindicator is able to blast it in the first place. Ok, you could give the Defiler a lascannon, but what's the point in that if you can't use the Battle Cannon (which is why you paid for the Defiler on the first place right? :wink 

Second point (which sort has been covered in the cons), the Defiler may attract fire, but it can't take that much fire. It's armour isn't excatly the best when it comes to taking heavy shots, but if you stick it in cover, it should be fine. 

Third point, people use dozerblades so they can go into terrain and not worry about crashing. Why would they do that? So they can get a cover save. Vindicators are just nasty like that, which is why some people has 2 or 3 of them in their lists now (Space Marine lists will most likely have 3, little clean bastards ).


----------



## CamTheApostle

arachnid said:


> To be fair, the defiler gets a light and smokelaunchers as well.


Whaaaa?

-Flips through beloved C:CSM to find Defiler entry-

I'll be a tutu wearing Pomeranian called Shirley, it does!


----------



## newsun

Steel Nathan said:


> Third point, people use dozerblades so they can go into terrain and not worry about crashing. Why would they do that? So they can get a cover save. Vindicators are just nasty like that, which is why some people has 2 or 3 of them in their lists now (Space Marine lists will most likely have 3, little clean bastards ).


Only they have to be pretty covered to get that save. They cannot just sit in some grass and call it good. I think the blades are an okay filler after the army is built, dunno about them being really strong.


----------



## Wraithian

newsun said:


> Only they have to be pretty covered to get that save. They cannot just sit in some grass and call it good. I think the blades are an okay filler after the army is built, dunno about them being really strong.


See, I'm with you on this. I've had crap luck with vindis (proxied them before purchasing any). Anything that I've found that obscures them enough to give them cover also either blocks their cannon entirely, or closes enough firelanes to make it a nigh-useless shell thrower.

At least with defilers, you can shimmy behind buildings, close off immediate fire lanes, take pot shots at units waaay off on the other end of the table, while working your way towards the unit's given role (which, whatever role you want it to accomplish is up to you, and should be decided on a game by game basis, IMHO, of course). But yes, even autocannons can slap it around but good.

I like my hellspiders, though. They draw more than their share of fire because they *look* imposing, if nothing more.


----------



## Mud213

Steel Nathan said:


> You gotta remember that the defiler is only ap3, so it can't actually outright kill most units. Dangerous units such as Terminators or such won't get killed outright easily from the Defiler (it can use his high save, rather then forcing to use his crap invunerable save). And, if Termies were going to assault the vehicle in the first place, you should have other units that should be in front of it.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Second point (which sort has been covered in the cons), the Defiler may attract fire, but it can't take that much fire. It's armour isn't excatly the best when it comes to taking heavy shots, but if you stick it in cover, it should be fine.
> 
> Third point, people use dozerblades so they can go into terrain and not worry about crashing. Why would they do that? So they can get a cover save. Vindicators are just nasty like that, which is why some people has 2 or 3 of them in their lists now (Space Marine lists will most likely have 3, little clean bastards ).


The first part about, "can't actually outright kill most units" isn't really the case. Most units _are_ MEq or less. There are only a few TEq out there and basically the rest are vehicles. An S 8 attack against a vehicle is just as good as a krak missile, but a defiler is really made to be an infantry killing machine (literally). You don't chose a defiler for TEq killing; leave that to another unit choice.

Your second point about attracting a lot of attention but not being able to take it, well sort of. *If* your opponent does take it out first turn, then that army has the power to have taken out any rhinos you have instead. Although a kind of expensive meat cushion, it is a very attractive meat cushion. *If* your opponent does focus it's ranged anti-tank on it, then your rhinos/LR's are within striking range and your defiler helped out by taking the blunt of their anti-tank. *If* they attempt to take it out and fail, then all the better since it can still help out and your transports got closer. *If* your opponent doesn't try to shoot it up, then you are in luck since you now have a mobile S8 large blast launching, CC machine at your disposal. Attracting attention isn't always a bad thing.

Your third point, no comment.


----------



## arachnid

Gonna break it down as i feel some stuff needs sortin' 




Steel Nathan said:


> I agree with pretty much all of your points arachnid. There are about 2-3 points I want to add/argue/explain about though:
> 
> You gotta remember that the defiler is only ap3, so it can't actually outright kill most units. Dangerous units such as Terminators or such won't get killed outright easily from the Defiler (it can use his high save, rather then forcing to use his crap invunerable save). And, if Termies were going to assault the vehicle in the first place, you should have other units that should be in front of it.


Good point, but i would counter-argue that anything that the battlecannon can't hurt is much better taken care of by other units, horses for courses and all that.

After all the defiler is just one unit, it's a bit unfair to expect it to be able to handle every threat out there. 




Steel Nathan said:


> Ok, you could give the Defiler a lascannon, but what's the point in that if you can't use the Battle Cannon (which is why you paid for the Defiler on the first place right? :wink


See my powergamer-remark 
Treating the defiler as a vindicator is really a bad move.

It's main selling point for me is versatility.

Actually, when i use mine, i do maybe 2 shots from the battlecannon, the rest of the game its tearing through infantry/other walkers by other means. 
The battlecannon is a great weapon, but its only half of the defiler (if that)

Its main point is to handle urgent threats and provide pressure where needed.


I use it accordingly.

I strongly suggest to try out a game with a bud without the battlecannon (just swap it for a free lascannon or w/e) to get a feel for it's other uses.
Hopefully youll see it's other uses other than a pieplate-tosser 





Steel Nathan said:


> Second point (which sort has been covered in the cons), the Defiler may attract fire, but it can't take that much fire. It's armour isn't excatly the best when it comes to taking heavy shots, but if you stick it in cover, it should be fine.


(thanks to possession this isnt as big of a deal as one may think, well av 13 all around would have been nice, but then it'd become a 'must take' instead of the flavour unit it is now.)

Anyhoo, the biggest and baddest shots will ignore anything above av12 anyway.

Lets say we are gonna be pansies and hide, why not use the smokelaunchers then? :wink:

+No need to put it in a bad position.
+Can run first
+WAAAAYYY easier than trying to cover it to 50% with terrain
+Survives a round

- All that firepower is now being poured into your other (scoring) units
- No shooting


Putting it in cover:

+ 4+
+ Survives a round (dice willing)

-may have to waste turns mucking about afterwards to get in position again.
-lessened threat-profile.
-Unlikely to get 50% of that hull covered without hiding it out of Los.





Steel Nathan said:


> Third point, people use dozerblades so they can go into terrain and not worry about crashing. Why would they do that? So they can get a cover save. Vindicators are just nasty like that, which is why some people has 2 or 3 of them in their lists now (Space Marine lists will most likely have 3, little clean bastards ).


Well, the vindi, unfortunately doesnt have its main weapon fully above the 50% line of its hull, arguably granting all the targets a save in the process.
kinda lessens the effectiveness.

The defiler doesnt have this problem at all, doesnt get stuck, and can still fire pretty unhindered even when 50% obscured.


In summary:
i totally agree that the vindicator is strong, even more so in a chaos list thanks to dp, but still the defiler and vindicator have different applications in my eyes.

Vindi : 
-if you know what you will face and how you will face it
-If you want to apply "scorched earth" tactics, creating no-man-lands on the board.

-Does what it says on the can.

Defiler: 
-If you use an allcomers list or play wily opponents that like to surprise you.
-If you dont like the dreads or the vindi, but want their stuff in one neat package.

-Greater than the sum of it's parts.



This is all in my opinion, mind.


Alrighty, enough rambling from me :mrgreen:


----------



## Spot The Grot

the extra 2 strength on the demolisher is probably worth its weight in gold. Against tanks you stand a much better chance and unlike the defiler it can penetrate armour 14.

Also while it is very few units the S10 also means more instant death. Things like ork warboss's and necron immortals and will be killed very efficiently due to the simple addition of 2 extra strength.

AP wise this works well in most games. While terminators are limited to marines and chaos , they are very common armies to come across and so are terminators . Ive had this dielema before where all my guys with plasma guns are busy killing the bulk of the marines army only for terminators to deepstrike , the defilers which are normaly bombarding the enemy can if they want shoot at the terminators but this probably won't work due to 2+ save. Then next time i used vindicators the extra AP helps a lot.
Another unit worth considering is broadsides , while a vindicator will probably be dead by the time he gets in range (or he uses smoke) . If he does get in range he can shoot at the broadsides cutting out their save completely and causeign instant death on them.

Vindicators are all about that demolisher cannon.


----------



## Steel Nathan

I agree with all your point there arachnid. I don't want to start a two man war in a tactics (unit versus unit) thread anyways. 

I have used a Defiler as a CC machine three times I believe. 

Once was against a shooty Tzeench army (1500- 4th ed). I can say that the plan to make it a CC Defiler was a fail, only because his Oblits managed to immoblize the damn thing on the first turn :laugh:. It was pretty good with the battle cannon, but the original purpose failed. 

A second time was against Deamons (1500- 4th ed). That went abit better. Actually, I had two Defiler squaring off against Two Sould Grinders, with my one defiler actually last standing. He soon died later on. 

A third time was against a Deathwing army (2000- 4th ed). While I was planning on just shooting them, since they were marines, the Battle Cannon would be completly useless (since they were Termies). The two of them, accompanied by a Khorne Deamon Prince, kicked serious ass! But... I managed to score a draw in that game. 

I admit, I haven't used Defilers in 5th ed yet... ok to put it bluntly, I haven't used Chaos yet in 5th ed at all '-_-. I liked the Defiler in general, but I have to test it personally with 5th ed.

I'm just arguing with facts, not with experience (bad idea ).


----------



## the cabbage

I've got to go with vindicators for two reasons,

I have just bought three and am awaiting thier arrival and,

I really hate the defiler model, I just don't think it fits the CSM army at all.


----------



## Mud213

the cabbage said:


> I've got to go with vindicators for two reasons,
> 
> I have just bought three and am awaiting thier arrival and,
> 
> I really hate the defiler model, I just don't think it fits the CSM army at all.


WHAT!!!?!?!!?! :shok: Not fitting with the CSM army AT ALL!!?!?! In my mind, they are what define CSM! :laugh: They are the reason I chose Chaos in the first place. They are very poiky (yes poiky) and I almost drew blood while priming it. Once I saw that beast of a model, I knew I had to play this game (or at the very least own the model). If there is any model of CSM to hate it should be the Chaos Dread. Everything else looks so much cooler in comparison then that hunk of metal, but I digress.

I am not against the use of vindicators, but defilers are pretty sweet looking to say the least.

If you want to hear some opinions of the Tactics of Defiler vs. Vindicator (including some of mind) read this (and the page after it): http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24054&page=7


----------



## Steel Nathan

Cabbage, I 100% respect your opinion... but sorry I have to say this... 

You are the first person that I have ever heard to say that :taunt:


----------



## Unforgiven302

Man, talk about a 50/50 choice. I think they both do a good job in the roles they are designed to play, but neither really cross over with each other. 

Vindicators:

Vindicators blast area, AP and strength are nasty, pure and simple. Not much can survive a good shelling from one or more.

Put three together and watch the carnage against hordes or other armour.

It's a tank, and tanks get knocked around pretty hard. Possession helps to keep the big gun firing, and that's the only use for this tank, keep the cannon firing at every chance.

They can hold or deny a large chunk of territory and cause your opponent to think twice about running through it's fire lane(s).

A single vindicator is fairly useless and gets squished before it can tear your opponent a new one. Multiple vindicators in a squadron type formation is fearsome, but use up most or all the heavy support slots for a normal roster. Very limited in movement and range for a heavy support role. 

Defilers:

Defilers are a multi tasking walker that can move fast and tear it up in CC when properly equipped and lay waste with the cannon too, if it doesn't get popped in the first turn. 

Big target on the table that draws too much attention to itself sometimes. 

Too easy to use wrong. If you depend on the cannon, it is a waste of a CC beast. Run straight for CC, ignoring cover for speed and it usually will not make it too far before going ka-boom.

The best use for one is in a Khorne or fast attacking/moving army supporting berserker's/CC units on the charge. 

Cannon blasting away on the move helps soften up the opponent for the berserker's/CC units to chew up upon arrival. 

Biggest downfall is it's ability to have every high strength weapon aimed at it right from the start. A "bullet" magnet so to speak. So most people hide it or take the long way round to keep it safer, but now it's wasted until maybe turn 4-5. So, it's hard to use effectively on a regular basis. But when it works, WOW!!! it works!

I use vindicators frequently and the results are mixed. No two games are the same and so no two outcomes are either. They are fun to use, and do blow up a lot of stuff. Bad luck (read: dice rolls) can cause missed shots that allow the enemy to assult them and make them smoking wrecks all to often. But, that's the nature of the beast right?


----------



## MJayC50

my heavy support =
defiler ccw ccw
defiler ccw ccw
2 oblitz

it works so well. 

defilers work better for me as they are for all comers! for example

orks - go for the n0bs the n0bs! st8 = killy dead in no time. specially with 2. also if you can get the charge on boys mobs, even the big ones you can cause some serious damage. bearing in mind you have had prolly 3 turns of pie plating that squad of 30 - knocking it down to say 20 on a bad day. then u charge with 6 st10 attacks 3 hits on average 3 dead. now the only other thing that can hurt you is the power claw. so thats 3 attacks. 3's (so thats 2 hits) 4s to glance (say 1 pen if chaos have a bad day) then you have a 1/3 chance of winning the combat by 2!
2 more saves so thats prolly 5 dead orks = 15 left. rince and repeat. 

vindi would have killed the same number orks but then would have been crushed.

meq's just shoot em! and then use to help out weaker units prone to being taken out by infiltraters or cc monsters. the presence of a defiler makes ppl itch. specially as it has 6 st10 ccw attacks!

i just love em. in 5h as well - lasts longer. only dies on a 5+ u can ignore 1and2 results. 3 and 4 mean that u have limited options ie either shoot ur templates or fleet and rip.

my advice to ppl who dont like defilers would be just take 2 fit their role depending on who u are facing.


----------



## Minion_1981

if you take a few vindicators your opponent won't be able to avoid them and he will have to deal with them, in my own experience using both defilers and vindi's and oblits I would have to say the one that always strikes fear in the opponent is the vindicator. In my opinion if you can make your opponent react to you in that way, (having to focus on something you planned ahead of time, such as fielding 2 or so vindicators) you have a large advantage if you know how to act accordingly.


----------



## RedApostle

Yeah defilers are half the reason i got into chaos aswell..
the other half being daemons :smoke:

Defilers imo make great charging partners.. say with a rhino full'o bezerkers? infiltrate a squad of chosen with a mark of chaos + summon some daemons.. 
can make for a pretty quick "oh shit!" for an opponent

Vindicators fill out their role very well but imo the fact that they have a role to fill is the biggest deciding factor - Defilers are wild cards which [like anything] can be countered well given a heads up, but tank hunters are usually on the prowl for somethin like a vindicator

thats my 2 cents anways =p


----------



## Navoc13

one of my best friends plays chaos. He normally runs 2 defilers. Their vindicator is the same as my SM vindicator. In comparison i would prefer the defiler. Heres Why...

-72 inch range compared to 24

-Fleet + 6 DCCW if needed

Also, CC tends to come unto my vindicator around turn 2 giving it 2 turns of firing max. Disregarding the fact that the defiler most likely will not be in CC (there are exceptions) until at least turn 3, the defiler is able to return blows when engaged in CC. Here is how I look at it...

You trade 2 STR, 1AP, and 1 front armor for triple the range and an enormous variety of CC options. Then I judge the trade-off like this. Your still wounding almost everything at 2+ (anything T6 or lower) and your still piercing everythings armor except terminator equivalents. 

Ok, still not enough? Walkers cannot be stunned or shaken without upgrading. Even if you give extra armor to your vindicator (which brings the points cost even closer if not equal) then it can still be subject to crew shaken.

I cant really think of to many more differances, wish i had a CSM codex handy. But thats how I look at it, just my 2 cents. 

I dont have the CSM codex memorized or anything but i do believe the info stated is fairly accurate PLEASE correct any of my mistakes. :wink:


----------



## KharnageofKhorne

CamTheApostle said:


> Lets hear it for the chaos battle crab! Can I get an amen?


I'll do you one better! BFTBG! 

I, simply for fluff, field only Defilers as my heavy support. I don't care if they are targets... they rock. And in close combat... well, hold onto your boots. I have THREE of them. I don't care if they die... and according to the dex, they don't give a ratz azz either!

Plus, I think oblitz are too boring...


----------



## NinjaEatingRice

Chaos Defiler

Hey Guys,
Here's some tactica about Chaos defiler.
I have 3 of them and I've used them many many times.
They kick a lot of ass, so use them.
the only problem about defilers is that they look scary as hell so be ready to lose them early in the game.

I only use my defilers as a decoy. I like to field 2. One that has only close combat weapons and the Battle cannon. This guy runs up with another squad while shooting the cannon. The goal is to protect the squad from Fire. Since the defiler looks so much more kick ass, it will get shot at. If your lucky, it will survice and you can keep moving up. Remember, Defiler has fleet so it's something to consider sometimes.

The 2nd defiler is the Range one. I got the Battle cannon, Reaper autocannon and either a Havoc or another close combat weapon. this guy stays back and shoots at what ever is best. This is also a decoy, it's so that less fire is shot at the first defiler and to up the chances of having at least 1 defiler survice. 

Try not to spen too much points on these guys because they will be a target and they will die. They only have armor 12, so a rocket launcher needs a 4+ to start causing you some problems. So you got a 50% chance or a 1 out of 2.

Plus those points can be better used towards other stuff.

If your oponent decides to not kill your defiler, then that's great. Use em to destroy tanks with the close combat weapons or unit with the battle cannon.

Hope this helps
Long live Nurgle!


----------

