# auto cannon havocs or forge fiend?



## wilso (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi guys.
Not sure if this is the right area but I am tossing up between a havoc squd with four auto cannons or a FF?

Main aim is to focus fire on light vehicles an MC

Im leaning more towards the ac havoc sqaud as bs4 and double the shots. But the FF is tougher, str 8 but has bs 3


What do you guys think. If havocs might get an AD and sit the bolter guy on a quad gun


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Havocs all the way. They are way cheaper and exchange a point of strength for one of ballistic skill. So there's compensation. Also a single lascannon can kill a forgefiend but it cannot kill an entire havoc squad. The forgefiend is immune to light anti-infantry fire but if your havocs are back far enough then they should be out of range of that kind of fire. Havocs also gain a cover save far easier than the FF.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

I say it depends upon the rest of your list. If you have an AV/hard target spam list where the forgefiend will not be the only target of the enemy Anti-vehicle fire, then the FF is a nice choice. If your list is light on other choices for AV fire, then the Havocs are preferable.

The Hades autocannons are better weapons overall, provide some unit control with pinning, and at least have a chance of glancing AV14...The havocs with autocannons do have better range.

You do pay more for the FF so that is another tic in the Havoc's favor.

I like the FF it has more versatility and punch, but in general the Havoc squad is a better value.



wilso said:


> Im leaning more towards the ac havoc sqaud as bs4 and double the shots.


They actually fire the same number of shots...8 from the Hades (Hv4x2) and 8 from the Havocs (Hv2x4)...the Havocs will, however, hit with 6 on average where the FF will only hit with 4.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

A single lascannon can ruin your day with the forgefiend. Havocs are just more durable and also cheaper.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I've been considering fire the forge fiend would work with the addition of a Herald of Tzeentch using the divination primaris power on it.

Though the cost is probably not worth it.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Toss them both out of the window and get Obliterators instead!


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

neferhet said:


> A single lascannon can ruin your day with the forgefiend. Havocs are just more durable and also cheaper


The "Single Lascannon" theory of vehicle destruction is horrible reason to avoid taking a FF (or any vehicle).

A "single" lascannon shot has roughly a 7% chance of killing a FF if fired by a BS4 model. 7% are pretty crappy odds to be betting the farm on, 93% chance of survival (and a 30% chance of repairing that wound) is nothing to shake a stick at. And if you don't kill the FF with the first shot it can take 2 more hits like that and likely a 3rd because it will have regenerated a HP, while the Havoc squad will be down 3-4 models with no chance of recovery. 

While you are correct that "single" lascannon shot could not "kill" a havoc unit, very few Lascannons fire at a something in solitude, usually multiple weapons are being fired at the FF. Those same multiple weapons opening up on a Havoc squad can "destroy" the unit as well. 

Let's assume a Devastator unit opens up all 4 Lascannons at that FF. Using the Sgt's signam the unit will only get 2.8 hits on average, of which 1.8 make it past the Daemon save, of those 1 is a penetrating hit, which has roughly a 30% chance killing the FF.

Now that same Dev squad shoots a Havoc squad in area terrain (5+ cover). Once again 2.8 hits, resulting in 2.3 wounds, after saves resulting in 1.6 dead Havocs...which causes a morale check (assuming squad size from 5-8 havocs) the havocs fail morale and run ~20% of the time.

Those are pretty similar odds, and 70-80% chances of either unit surviving that round of fire is nothing to sneeze at. The big difference comes as the game goes on, the Havocs are also far more likely to face fire from massed ST 3-5 weaponry that has no chance of harming the FF. Even massed ST 6 fire is far more likely to kill the havoc squad than glance the FF to death.

Vehicles are not the glass cannons they are made out to be and a vehicle with an always on 5++ save and IWND to regain lost HP even less so. Unless that is your only AV target and your opponent can waste all his High ST anti-AV weapons on it until it is dead...but that is more of an issue of list design and target priority than the FF being "worse" than the Havoc squad because it could potentially on a rare occasion be killed by a "single" lascannon shot.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

That was a well written analysis!

I think how those scenarios compare to unit cost and army synergy is likely to be more important overall.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Both units serve the same purpose (or close enough at least) and take up the same FOC slot. So it's only a matter of the units cost, toughness, reliability, list dependency and the cool factor.

Cost obviously goes to the havocs and due to their greater range and BS I would also say both reliability and toughness is usually in their favour. Of course, the FF can both walk and shoot at full efficiency so it has some utility in that regard and if your list wants lots of big guys it is worth mentioning.
But those advantages seem pretty novel when you are reminded of how much cheaper the havocs are so unless you think the FF is way cooler than the havocs I would go for the squad of dudes with the big cannons every time.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> The "Single Lascannon" theory of vehicle destruction is horrible reason to avoid taking a FF (or any vehicle).
> 
> A "single" lascannon shot has roughly a 7% chance of killing a FF if fired by a BS4 model. 7% are pretty crappy odds to be betting the farm on, 93% chance of survival (and a 30% chance of repairing that wound) is nothing to shake a stick at. And if you don't kill the FF with the first shot it can take 2 more hits like that and likely a 3rd because it will have regenerated a HP, while the Havoc squad will be down 3-4 models with no chance of recovery.
> 
> ...


A good analysis btw k:


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

neferhet said:


> why should i pay an average 50 pts more for a less shooty and potentially "one shot-killed" unit when I can have a more reliable offensive output from a unit that will cost less and be tough as the previous one?


I agree that a cheap unit of Havocs is the better choice if you are point starved (actual difference for a 5 man AC havoc squad is 115 v 175 for the FF so a 60pt difference).

However if you want to add the ablative wounds to the Havoc squad to make them more durable then the cost difference disappears quickly. A 10 man AC havoc squad is 180 pts v the 175 for the FF. The choice is less obvious at this point, especially if you start to mark out or do any more alterations of the havocs.

There are several advantages the FF has over the havoc squad that are less obvious than just the durability:

*It is a Walker and unlike the havoc squad which will be an immobile fire base can move and shoot all of its weapons at full BS, this ability to move about the field and fire up to 3 weapons (the extra ecto cannon option) can be a valuable tool.
*It is a Walker and is not that vulnerable to assault, it fights at full WS, has S6 and (unless immobilized) the enemy will have to overcome AV12 which can be tough for many units in CC. (although this means it can get tarpitted in or alternately can be used as a tarpit)
*With S8 weaponry the FF is a more versatile weapons platform than an AC havoc unit. The twin Hades + Ecto cannon config has both s8 and ap2 at it's disposal.

BTW - all of the above posts aside, the FF is not my top choice for the heavy slot, but it is a viable option compared to a Havoc squad and (my favorite) the obliterator squad. Each of the three has a different role in the army and depending upon points considerations and what battlefield role you want all three are viable choices.

(and I think the ForgeFiend is a nice looking model, but I know that some people don't like the look)


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> I say it depends upon the rest of your list. If you have an AV/hard target spam list where the forgefiend will not be the only target of the enemy Anti-vehicle fire, then the FF is a nice choice. If your list is light on other choices for AV fire, then the Havocs are preferable.


This is probably the most important in deciding. You need to think about the army your running in total, not just plug in whatever seems to be the better unit by itself, but what will work best with your army. I've been debating this myself for awhile trying to figure out what is better for me. The FF will have trouble staying alive for long if it is the main target for your opponents heavy weapons versus the Havocs, unless you give your opponent more target magnets. The goal is to try and force your opponent to spread out their fire and try to take out each of your target magnets with less fire. 

CSM Target Magnets:
-Daemon Prince
-Vindicator
-Forgefiend
-Larger Bike Squads

Easily the Daemon Prince is the biggest fire magnet in the CSM. The second that unit goes on the table, your opponent will make that #1 priority. The next, is between Vindicators and FF. I haven't had many games with a FF yet, but I'm assuming that it's beginning to over take the Vindicators ranking in target priority. ALTHOUGH, they still fear the Demolisher cannon like the black plague. The larger bike squads have scared some players enough to make them a priority as well, but normally takes a back seat to the DP, Vindicator and FF. 

*Reason why I DO NOT put the Helldrake in the target magnets list, is because its not on the table turn 1. Simple as that, your opponent doesn't have to worry about it until it comes in and until then it they can focus what's on the table. Yes when it does show up, it might go as high as the DP, but it doesn't help spread the fire early enough in the game when it matters.*

Overall, you don't NEED all of those units to succeed with FF, but in a way you leave your FF out to dry if you have a very infantry heavy army and visa versa you leave your Havocs vulnerable to focus anti-infantry fire if you have a very vehicle heavy army. Just finding the right balance and synergy in your army between your units is key, not baseline which unit is better than the other.


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## NathanJD (Oct 30, 2012)

If you need mobility in your firing platform, have enough vehicle/MC target saturation or have included a Herald of Tzeench for prescience the Forgefiend will be the better choice.

Otherwise from a purely firepower/points standpoint, the Havocs win pretty handily unless a Herald is in your army (twin-linking bs3 gives a larger upgrade than bs4). Their biggest drawback is their static nature. That and vulnerability Helldrakes of course .


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## wilso (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks guys, some very good points made.

My army usually consists of a full unit of oblits or havocs in the heavy slots so not a whole heap of mech targets.

The main bulk of the army is medium/short ranged infantry in rhinos whith the heavies hanging back with supporting fire plus a unit of bikes and a hell drake :grin:

My normal meta I face alot of eldar stuff, med av vehicles and wraith lords/avatar and some wraith guard just got introduced hence the med/high strength weight of fire. 

The havocs I run usually consist of two AC and two ML and seem to work quite well.

I was thinking of the unit of oblits and then two units of AC havocs to cover from my board edge so they can soften up some of the high toughness targets whilst my other units advance


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

To be fair, the FF is alot more durable than people give it credit for. As explained in detail above, the 'lone lascannon' argument is pretty pants. I just played a FF at a 1500 event and it died via glanced to death every single game, not a pen. It also has mobility over the havocs. A static squads firing lanes can be reduced to sub optimal targets on a table with suitable terrain. 

As far as performance goes I've had mixed results with the FF, but the havocs do work every time I've used them. It's really preference.


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