# Angron / Khorne Question



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I've just listened to The Eightfold Path (awesome - just like the rest of the Echoes of Ruin stories!) and it got me thinking. If Angron was to get free of his chains would he simply slaughter everyone aboard the Conqueror? After all he's now a Daemon-Prince and subject to Khorne's whim (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). 

Therefore since Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, wouldn't Angron simply start with those around him - the World Eaters? Or would Khorne forbid him somehow and say if you don't slaughter them, your legion will ultimately provide me more skulls? Does Khorne have the patience for that long view planning?

I also assume that Lorgar must have had a hand in getting Angron back aboard the Conqueror. I'm not sure who else would have had the power, knowledge or warp skill to somehow subdue, chain up and then arrange transportation back from the surface of Nuceria (I think it was there he ascended) a newly ascended Daemon-Prince of Khorne of the power of Angron

It also makes me wonder how any Khornate mortal armies work? How do they assemble without killing each other? Surely they should have slaughtered themselves long before becoming a danger to anyone else? It's not like they're immune from their patron's powers like Nurgle, Slaaneshi or even Tzeenchian are? (Again I'm not sure about this so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Does Khorne regularly bring back from the dead warriors who please him like he did with Khârn?

One final question, once Angron ascended and was simply insane, who commanded the World Eaters? Who retained the presence of mind to plan what to do and the power and authority to command the Legion in Angrons mental absence? I'm assuming Khârn but he's not exactly the most stable either?

Sorry for the long thread, each time I thought about it more questions popped into my head.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm didn't Dan Abnett describe Chaos as not stupid evil? Not everyone in their service nails a baby to the forehead of their powered armour. But yeah they are still disorganized as is proven when they have to raid Imperial traders for supplies and ships as everyone is out for numero uno. I guess they are a disorderly lot but they still can somehow curtail their need for killing until planet-fall its the same with Slaanesh as they doesn't for no good reason torture their friends (even though that has often been the case) and can go for a while without experiencing either pain or pleasure.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Worshiper's of khorne tend to only go ax crazy in battle. Outside of it they have to be capable of getting to the battles.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm didn't Dan Abnett describe Chaos as not stupid evil? Not everyone in their service nails a baby to the forehead of their powered armour. But yeah they are still disorganized as is proven when they have to raid Imperial traders for supplies and ships as everyone is out for numero uno. I guess they are a disorderly lot but they still can somehow curtail their need for killing until planet-fall its the same with Slaanesh as they doesn't for no good reason torture their friends (even though that has often been the case) and can go for a while without experiencing either pain or pleasure.


I wasn't aware of this quote, thanks for confirming. It makes sense I suppose but I think this explanation has been put in there to try to explain the insanity that is Chaos. I can't understand Chaos as I'm not insane (although some might argue with that lol)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> I wasn't aware of this quote, thanks for confirming. It makes sense I suppose but I think this explanation has been put in there to try to explain the insanity that is Chaos. I can't understand Chaos as I'm not insane (although some might argue with that lol)


Haha only a few people can say they can understand Chaos, and by our standards the are utterly insane and evil. Thats how Chaos turns people.

I mean Nurgle is the kindest Chaos god and he "kindnapped" Isha and he gives her gifts by infecting her. I wonder what would happen if I did that IRL. I doubt the news for no good reason would accept my tale of the story.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I've just listened to The Eightfold Path (awesome - just like the rest of the Echoes of Ruin stories!) and it got me thinking. If Angron was to get free of his chains would he simply slaughter everyone aboard the Conqueror? After all he's now a Daemon-Prince and subject to Khorne's whim (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).


Bar the occasional incident (which I can imagine happening), no. As _Beavitz_ and _Reaper_ said Khornate armies need to be coherent and organised enough to transport themselves, utilise logistics (or at least delegate such things), and actually make war. Despite Angron being a Daemon Prince of Khorne, I imagine he is well aware that much more blood can be shed with a Legion of devotees at his back rather than him just slaughtering said Legion of devotees. I'm sure he recognised that his Legion were also Khornate, or at least would soon become dedicated to the Blood God.

Don't forget that Angron, thousands of years later, was also capable of launching a war against Armageddon. As well as the Dominion of Fire. He is certainly capable of commanding a war (even if that just means mustering daemonic and mortal hordes to his side, differentiating between allies and the enemy, and attacking the enemy). 



zerachiel76 said:


> Therefore since Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, wouldn't Angron simply start with those around him - the World Eaters? Or would Khorne forbid him somehow and say if you don't slaughter them, your legion will ultimately provide me more skulls? Does Khorne have the patience for that long view planning?


Khorne doesn't care from whence the blood flows, but if his followers just butchered each other then Khorne wouldn't be very successful at spreading his trademark emotions. _Codex: Daemons_ specifically notes that the Chaos Gods are primarily concerned with the "eternal flow of emotion". I'm sure Khorne, despite his boundless rage, is aware that much more anger, rage and spilt blood can be replicated across reality if his followers don't just butcher anyone and anything but actually act with a more long-minded view (even if that just involves killing as many people as possible :laugh. 



zerachiel76 said:


> It also makes me wonder how any Khornate mortal armies work? How do they assemble without killing each other? Surely they should have slaughtered themselves long before becoming a danger to anyone else? It's not like they're immune from their patron's powers like Nurgle, Slaaneshi or even Tzeenchian are? (Again I'm not sure about this so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Does Khorne regularly bring back from the dead warriors who please him like he did with Khârn?


I imagine not so dissimilar to how the World Eaters 'worked' in the latter stages of the Great Crusade. Despite the Butcher's Nails and blood-lust, they were able to organise themselves acceptably. They sated their rage and weariness between battles in the gladiatorial cages. I also imagine that many Khornate warbands maintain a common sense of brotherhood (like the World Eaters did) or respect amongst themselves. 



zerachiel76 said:


> One final question, once Angron ascended and was simply insane, who commanded the World Eaters? Who retained the presence of mind to plan what to do and the power and authority to command the Legion in Angrons mental absence? I'm assuming Khârn but he's not exactly the most stable either?


Horus? After all, Horus was the one who directed the World Eaters to Ultramar in the first place. I imagine he was able to channel the World Eaters and Angron towards his targets and simply unleash them.

In terms of micromanagement, I'd guess they'd just carry on very similar to how they did before Angron ascended. I don't think Angron was too interested in the organisational niceties anyway, it was more a case of just unleashing his Legion and they organised themselves as they had always done.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Worshiper's of khorne tend to only go ax crazy in battle. Outside of it they have to be capable of getting to the battles.


Thanks and this makes sense 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Bar the occasional incident (which I can imagine happening), no. As _Beavitz_ and _Reaper_ said Khornate armies need to be coherent and organised enough to transport themselves, utilise logistics (or at least delegate such things), and actually make war. Despite Angron being a Daemon Prince of Khorne, I imagine he is well aware that much more blood can be shed with a Legion of devotees at his back rather than him just slaughtering said Legion of devotees. I'm sure he recognised that his Legion were also Khornate, or at least would soon become dedicated to the Blood God.
> 
> Don't forget that Angron, thousands of years later, was also capable of launching a war against Armageddon. As well as the Dominion of Fire. He is certainly capable of commanding a war (even if that just means mustering daemonic and mortal hordes to his side, differentiating between allies and the enemy, and attacking the enemy).


All of this makes sense, thanks. As you said he wasn't exactly a strategist tho so I presume his planning sessions went something like

{Translated from Daemonic} 

Angron - Right guys, I want a nice clean slaughter today, there's plenty of skulls to go round.
Warband leader - Ok boss, any particular strategy we should follow?
Angron - Kill them all, it doesn't matter in what order. {Starts humming "We have all the time in the World" from James Bond which seeing as Khorne has always existed, is well aware of  } If I find out anyone's been slacking then I'll present their Skull to our lord myself"

Or something like that anyway 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Khorne doesn't care from whence the blood flows, but if his followers just butchered each other then Khorne wouldn't be very successful at spreading his trademark emotions. _Codex: Daemons_ specifically notes that the Chaos Gods are primarily concerned with the "eternal flow of emotion". I'm sure Khorne, despite his boundless rage, is aware that much more anger, rage and spilt blood can be replicated across reality if his followers don't just butcher anyone and anything but actually act with a more long-minded view (even if that just involves killing as many people as possible :laugh.


Yeah, I suppose Khorne realises that he needs enemies otherwise the blood will stop flowing.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I imagine not so dissimilar to how the World Eaters 'worked' in the latter stages of the Great Crusade. Despite the Butcher's Nails and blood-lust, they were able to organise themselves acceptably. They sated their rage and weariness between battles in the gladiatorial cages. I also imagine that many Khornate warbands maintain a common sense of brotherhood (like the World Eaters did) or respect amongst themselves.


Really good point, that makes sense too 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus? After all, Horus was the one who directed the World Eaters to Ultramar in the first place. I imagine he was able to channel the World Eaters and Angron towards his targets and simply unleash them.
> 
> In terms of micromanagement, I'd guess they'd just carry on very similar to how they did before Angron ascended. I don't think Angron was too interested in the organisational niceties anyway, it was more a case of just unleashing his Legion and they organised themselves as they had always done.


I meant immediately after Angron's ascendance and their leaving of Ultramar. Horus might have tried to command from a distance but I don't think the World Eaters would have listened to him. Maybe they stayed with Lorgar out of loyalty and took his orders until the 2 legions met back up with Horus.

I really enjoyed my little Angron scenario above, I may have to write more


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Khornates still tend to have a short fuse and being easilly riled. But yeah, even Khorne can think for himself. He declared that his two greatest servants. Skarbrand and Angrath the Unbound would never meet each otther in battle, as their fury would be better spent reaping the galaxy of skulls, than trying to destroy each other.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Also I know someone brought this up before but GW did change khorne allot. Now he's an axe crazy psycho. who doesn't care who bleeds.

Before he cared about whose blood it was. Killing a chapter master awesome. Killing any astartes awesome.

Butchering the guardsmen while ignoring the astartes not cool.

killing the guardsmen who are standing their ground giving civilians a chance to escape, cool.

Going out of your way to kill civilians while there's things capable of fighting back not cool.

See what I am saying. While he still might have personified the berserker mentality he also valued honor and battle prowess.

It makes a khornate army more sensible then a bunch of psychos who kill each other at the drop of a hat.


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## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

As for who is leading the World Eaters, you're probably right that they remained loyal to Lorgar.

The Space Marines are cowed by the Primarchs like mortals are cowed by the Space Marines. Plus Lorgar just elevated their primarch to some kind of demi-god right in front of them. Something none of them have ever seen.

Its probably overrides their insanity since its the first time and Lorgar is able to semi-command them or at least keep them from breaking down into a jabbering mess.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Also I know someone brought this up before but GW did change khorne allot. Now he's an axe crazy psycho. who doesn't care who bleeds.
> 
> Before he cared about whose blood it was. ...


I'm not sure it was so much about "whose blood it was", but GW definitely changed how Khorne operated. 

In the _Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness_ Khornate armies had heavy weapon squads, because clearly they kill enemies effectively.

Somewhere in later editions (2nd?) the writers started moving more towards cost combat and berzerkers only.

It's a pity. It reduces how interesting Khorne troops are.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Angel of Lies said:


> As for who is leading the World Eaters, you're probably right that they remained loyal to Lorgar.


Lorgar had command of the Word Bearers unless a very unwelcome shift in fluff have happened. I'm filing this under brainfarting and you wrote one Primarch or legion while meaning the other. I have done similar brainfarts myself.



Reaper45 said:


> Also I know someone brought this up before but GW did change khorne allot. Now he's an axe crazy psycho. who doesn't care who bleeds.
> 
> Before he cared about whose blood it was. Killing a chapter master awesome. Killing any astartes awesome.
> 
> ...


Khorne has always been a god of slaughter. I think people often over-interpret stuff as Dan Abnett gave a pretty good word of god on the matter which I personally am very inclined to follow here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzP32liZEK4


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I meant immediately after Angron's ascendance and their leaving of Ultramar. Horus might have tried to command from a distance but I don't think the World Eaters would have listened to him. Maybe they stayed with Lorgar out of loyalty and took his orders until the 2 legions met back up with Horus.





Angel of Lies said:


> As for who is leading the World Eaters, you're probably right that they remained loyal to Lorgar.


I've just reread the epilogue of _Betrayer_:

Khârn to Lorgar: "It [Angron] butchered hundreds of my men *before you bound it*..."
Lorgar to Khârn: "We will gather our fleets spread across the Five Hundred Worlds, then we shall rejoin Horus... *I will release him [Angron] when the time is right*."

Right at the end of the epilogue, Angron seems at least coherent enough to order Khârn to bring him three hundred skulls from the _Conqueror_'s crew in order to build himself a throne. That's not saying a lot, I know. From the quotes above, it does seem that Lorgar intends to remain with the World Eaters as they move to rejoin Horus, in order to "release" Angron on the next world that "must bleed like never before". I imagine Lorgar will teach Khârn or other World Eaters the rites required to bind and release Angron or at least remain until Angron becomes stable enough, as a daemon, to 'lead' the World Eaters.

There is a big difference between remaining with the World Eaters to 'help' with Angron's new situation, and taking command of the World Eaters though. The World Eaters certainly wouldn't have held any loyalty to Lorgar. Who led the World Eaters in the time immediately after Angron's ascension? They likely continued just as they had done before, with Angron at their head and the Legion just organising itself. Remember, Angron never really led the Legion as it's commander properly anyway. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Khorne has always been a god of slaughter. I think people often over-interpret stuff


That seems to be the case. There is certainly a difference between the perspective of Khorne's followers and the perspective of the Blood God itself. It is often suggested that Khorne was an "honourable" god back in first edition, but I've just quickly gone over my copy of _Slaves to Darkness_ (from first edition) and it includes many phrases such as: "Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone...". Doesn't seem very honourable to me. It seems that you are right, Khorne has always been a god of slaughter. 

I think, what sums up Khorne the best in this regard is this passage from Codex: Chaos (second edition) and which has been reprinted or paraphrased in most editions since: "Khorne's followers may feel they can justify their life of slaughter in any number of ways through honour, bravery or martial pride. However, the most fanatical of Khorne's worshippers know that he desires only wild slaughter in his name and that all else is meaningless sacrifice".

Khorne's followers may turn to him to enhance their martial ability or bravery, they may believe him to be a honourable god of combat. Where as actually he is just a Blood God of wanton murder.


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## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Lorgar had command of the Word Bearers unless a very unwelcome shift in fluff have happened. I'm filing this under brainfarting and you wrote one Primarch or legion while meaning the other. I have done similar brainfarts myself.


Cute.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Angel of Lies said:


> Cute.


Heyh, I was being gregarious. if nothing else.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Lorgar had command of the Word Bearers unless a very unwelcome shift in fluff have happened. I'm filing this under brainfarting and you wrote one Primarch or legion while meaning the other. I have done similar brainfarts myself.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzP32liZEK4


Nope, I meant Lorgar and COTE provided the quote about Lorgar releasing him when the time was right that lead me to this belief. However further comments re Angron never actually leading the Legion has caused me to change my mind.

My my you are in an argumentative mood recently Beavis, have you been worshipping at Khorne's throne yourself which has caused the anger and rage or are you Luz in disguise :wink:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That seems to be the case. There is certainly a difference between the perspective of Khorne's followers and the perspective of the Blood God itself. It is often suggested that Khorne was an "honourable" god back in first edition, but I've just quickly gone over my copy of _Slaves to Darkness_ (from first edition) and it includes many phrases such as: "Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone...". Doesn't seem very honourable to me. It seems that you are right, Khorne has always been a god of slaughter.
> 
> I think, what sums up Khorne the best in this regard is this passage from Codex: Chaos (second edition) and which has been reprinted or paraphrased in most editions since: "Khorne's followers may feel they can justify their life of slaughter in any number of ways through honour, bravery or martial pride. However, the most fanatical of Khorne's worshippers know that he desires only wild slaughter in his name and that all else is meaningless sacrifice".
> 
> Khorne's followers may turn to him to enhance their martial ability or bravery, they may believe him to be a honourable god of combat. Where as actually he is just a Blood God of wanton murder.


That was a pretty good post. I wish I could rep you but I have to spread rep around apparently. I used to think that unlike most codexes and information on races or armies that the Chaos Codex was the one that was unbiased, because at first glance it seemed a plain a simple interpretation of the warp and what it is, and so forth. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is very biased because of its lack of information on undivided. And honestly, most of the descriptions are what materialistic minds would often describe their Gods. Their actions reflect that ambitions of lesser beings. 

I dislike the fact that many fluff writers have described Khorne in such a way, because it makes its existence improbable. Its almost like saying that Slaanesh does mindless drugs and has sex all the time. I'm also mixed at Angron's portrayal as a daemon prince. In one hand, one could say that Khorne didn't really give him his actual powers and that in a sense, his form was created artificially. This is actually interesting because in a sense he is actually a messed up warp identity with relationship to Khorne because of his behavior and/or Lorgar's doing and that is all. I wonder if he truly represents Khorne. I often viewed the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes of their Gods as patrons, avatars of their will. If Khorne Daemons really act in a way where they were self destructive with their surroundings, armies of different daemons would have lots of trouble actually fighting Imperials. It would essentially be a 5 way fight.


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