# Should LOKEN be alive or dead



## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm a firm believer he should be alive and I'm glad he is. I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much. 

Also, his inner struggle is really interesting, to me at least. Seing an astartes actually struggle with mental issues is refreshing to say the least. 

So what is everyone else's thoughts?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.


I say that Tarvitz and the other doomed loyalists, like Solomon Demeter, Huron-Fal, Tarik Torgaddon, and that Apothecary that Eidolon murdered, they symbolised the sacrifice of the doomed loyalists. Loken is their revenge come back from death to haunt Horus.


LotN


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Loken's initial death was somewhat mishandled. Abaddon wasn't set up well enough to be the one to kill him (not that he did, but you know what I mean). It should really have been Horus and Loken should have been clearly murdered and betrayed by his father. Abaddon just wasn't a good enough stand-in thematically.

The other satisfactory alternative would have been Loken just being randomly killed out of nowhere to illustrate the horrible tragedy etc. Being crushed to death by rubble a Titan's passing dislodged was too mundane.

As to him not dying and coming back, I wasn't averse to it at the time (as his death wasn't very good, and him not being killed by Horus - who is really his personal antagonist, not Abaddon or Little Horus or Erebus or Tormageddon - means we can now close that circle later) but further mishandling of his return and the mostly (not all) underwhelming use of him since is making me regret it. Esp as we've had his confrontation with Horus and it was mostly just dumb. 

Ultimately, there better be a point to it.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...
> 
> His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.


I disagree that you have to die to have sacrifice


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.


No it isn't. 

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc. 

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

Vaz said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.


Nonsense. It's nothing like it. 

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Nonsense. It's nothing like it.
> 
> If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.


So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!


What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?
> 
> The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.
> 
> Simple enough for you?


So like I said, if all arms lost, you believe the loser should just die. 

If someone you knew was in the same situation of LOKEN and the suddenly returned would you still say"wtf man! You died a symbolic death, so go frigging die!)


So now do you see my point?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.


I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.


You sir, are just plain rude


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.
> 
> I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.
> 
> ...


I can see the merits of that viewpoint LotN, but to me it only stands up if he had come back in the next book or two, not years later, after a couple of the writers pretty much confirmed he was definitely dead, and it's blatantly obvious that he was only brought back to sell audio books to fanboyz like the OP. 

It has been handled extremely poorly, turning a noble and loyal character into an angst ridden gardener with a personality disorder, who may or may not one day return to the side of his primarch.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Doesn't make him any less wrong.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm still with the others. I really liked Loken and assumed he would be the series main protagonist in a sense, that somehow he and others would survive Istvaan. So when he 'died' I was like, well fuck. And it really hits home just how brutal that betrayal was, that even Loken, loyal to the core, with all the beliefs and traits you want in an astartes, still dies, killed by one of his closest brothers. No one is safe, the betrayal is absolute. 

And like others have said. Him surviving, just seems meh. I now read GiF, and whilst Torgaddons death still sucks, I see Loken get beaten and just sigh, as he somehow survives. It just completely took the tragedy away. We had Garro, Qruze, Keeler and the others survive the massacre. We didn't need any survivors on the surface. I don't buy into the whole 'Loken died on Istvaan, he's completely different now' because reading Vengeful Spirit, he's still very much Loken. 

So yeah. He should have died. Him surviving quite literally ruined Istvaan III for me.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.
> 
> Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"


Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.
> 
> So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.


Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Those aren't really mental issues, if I'm honest. Those are just questions. Please stop making yourself try to appear better than everyone by trying to seem like literary connoisseur by wanting something out of a poetic ideal and turning it into a gritty reality.

40K is pretty much a space opera, if a simplistic one that boils down to background fluff for a tabletop game. The Horus Heresy era however, is much closer to that original idea, where nonsensical technologies powered by handwavium and unobtainium have less relevance to the story. Very few stories are about a hunt for a magic mcguffin, or anything, it's about the events that have happened. This is like Romeo and Juliet; a tragedy, as it were. Greek and Epic, and Shakespearean, but without the complexities that they have. It's a Space Opera for beginners. Not only is that indicative of "wanting more than just "DEATH"! (I guess you've forgotten the rest of the novel series; with the exception of shite like Battle for the Abyss or Damnation of Pythos etc; much of it was about telling a story about why the events happened that we know about). 

Fuck, it's pretty much Romeo and Juliet;

"A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventur'd piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents' strife."

That's what people know; R+J, in love, then they die.

The parody, and play on that deeper meaning is Abnett when he's at his best, and not flogging versions of Sharpe or Pearl Harbour in space. The events that happened within that original trilogy have the hallmarks of those stories.

In that, we see the figurehead; Loken. He's our talisman, our compass bearing, true north. He's a brutal killer, an antihero, but one who recognises his role as a xenophobic mass murderer as a necesity. Little touches like hiding the compassion of the Astartes from the remembrancers enhances things like this, as well as their almost autistic dealings with the non-astartes when not in a combat situation. They recognise they are living weapons, but Loken is among the most human we have come across. He is our eyes and our view of the events are tainted by his thoughts, and we have an attachment to him, because they roughly align with our own.

People like Loken; everyone knows the SoH were among hardest mother fuckers among a group of hard mother fuckers, everyone knows Horus would attempt to kill the emperor, and everyone knows that the emperor is a corpse; whether he's actually dead or not, we don't know, but he's seen as that.

So "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor". We go into the book expecting to read about Horus Rising. Horus getting power. Horus becoming who would later destroy everything about the Imperium. And on the first line, we're shoved into end game situation.

By the time we get to the death of 63-19 we know exactly what's happening, and think to ourselves "ahah, you sneaky bastards, using our foreknowledge against us!".

Then comes Lokens death. Regardless of whether or not it was kept a mystery - and it wasn't (look at GRRM's books for mysterious deaths; people are seemingly just forgotten, like the Hound); he was dead. While we never saw the death blow, we got the fade to black moment when the hero proceeds to fuck the princess or gandalf falling. 

We never explicitly saw his death, but the one thing that people hate in modern literature is deus ex machina; why people like Tyrion, or Daenarys are able to just keep plugging.

I didn't get to read GRRM before the HH, but I did get to read/see the Death of Ned before I learned Loken came back. That was an equally cataclysmical poetic event. In the grand scheme of things, a Captain of the Astartes being killed alongside the ~40,000 other loyalists I think it was who participated in the purging doesn't really make a massive difference to things.

But it's a personal thing. We've seen him "die". He was written out of the canon.

We spent years recognising he had died, and many, many books.

We've mourned his loss, lamented him. Made him a figurehead of what was good about the Heresy series, and we've learned to move on. People like Sevatar, Polux, Ahriman, and Bjorn begin to fill that gap, while cameos of our favourites like Forrix or Abaddon make appearances.

Then comes back Loken. And we're expected to feel the same way we've done again about him. A) We don't want to get attached because they might pull the same shit again b) we just don't care about him like we used to c) he doesn't actually do anything. His Big moment came and went, and he fucked it up (despite it not actually being in the script that Horus would be killed in Vengeful Spirit, from a non-metaknowledge point of view, he failed in his task). He's done nothing. The storyline hasn't advanced. He's not brought new interesting fluff to the setting, especially one that's dependent on him. He could have been equally be removed from the setting once more, and nothing would have changed.

Vengeful Spirit was simply nothing more than Graham McNeill attempting a double entendre with his title. Does he mean the ship? Does he mean Loken? Does he mean the ghost/daemon/dream affecting Loken? The non-corrupt brother who falls to Slaanesh in the end in a TOTALLY NOT EXPECTED PLOTTWIST THAT GRAHAM MCNEILL IS NOT AT ALL KNOWN FOR DOING AND HAS NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE IN ANY BOOK (^TM). Or does he mean that actual, literal, non-figurative Vengeful Spirit?

Meanwhile, compare that to Prince of Crows double entendre, or rather, it's hidden appropriation.
@Garviel loken. (The username, and the person behind it, not the character), these are Primarchs. In regards to Astartes, please give me similar occasions when such a thing has happened.

The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

:goodpost: Very well put.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.


Pretty much, only they only had buildings fall on them.



Garviel loken. said:


> Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death


There's living through certain death. And then there's living through a city being _*REMOVED*_ off the face off the planet. Whilst being _in it_. That isn't living through what is 99% chance of death. That's just utterly absurd. That would be like being at the impact point of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, only those weren't even utterly destroyed, so it's not even as bad as them.

If Loken is alive, then Tarvitz, Vipus, Rylanor and all the others should damn will still be alive as well. At least they were conscious and still able to move around. How should they be any more dead than Loken?


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father. 

As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects

PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

actually it says in legion of one how he survived.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, his return wasn't required imo. 

I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble. 

Not only that but we now also have another loyal Luna Wolf in the form of Severian, who is a lot more fitting of what the Knight Errants require.

In the end, I don't think Loken has added anything meaningful to the series since his return, his death on the other hand a lot more meaning, more than I think Loken's return could ever out-achieve.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, he's return wasn't required imo.
> 
> I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble.
> 
> ...


Tho i think loken will prove to be the most influential character during the seige. It will be him that makes aximand finally see what his legion has become. His tale is far from over


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father.
> 
> As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects
> 
> PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours





Garviel loken. said:


> actually it says in legion of one how he survived.


Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.

I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.
> 
> I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.


"It was here that he had re awakened, burried beneath the stone. Here that he had dug himself out, born on a single mindedness that bordered on lunacy."

Works for me


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Dug himself out? Wasn't Loken pinned down and obscured, not buried?

And wasn't his rib cage/plate shattered?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I agree with most other people - I think that Loken returning to the series was a terrible idea. I loved him as a character in the opening 3 novels, and his death capped off the opening of the Heresy beautifully. 

The whole issue has only been exasperated by his incredibly boring portrayals since he has returned - not to mention the terrible suicide attack on the Vengeful Spirit in _Vengeful Spirit_. His return has thus far served no purpose, and I don't think he can now fulfil any purpose in the series which will make me think his return was worth it.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

I suppose it is all opinion, tho i do feel at the end he will have served a major purpose, and he will die on the Vengeful spirit, next to the emperor


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> "It was here that he had re awakened, burried beneath the stone. Here that he had dug himself out, born on a single mindedness that bordered on lunacy."
> 
> Works for me


How does that work for you? A Cathedral, fell on him, after he had already been beaten half to death by Abaddon. And once again. how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> How does that work for you? A Cathedral, fell on him, after he had already been beaten half to death by Abaddon. And once again. how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?


The rubble of the building protected him from the bombardment. His power armor protected him from the rubble.

Also, rylanor may yet be alive. Graham mcniell hinted at it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

From a bombardment that was ordered to wipe the city off the face of the planet? Horus wanted it bombed so thoroughly that the defences that protected them from the life eater virus wouldn't even be effective. And somehow, a building, that's collapsed, and not even covering Loken from the outside, as he can see the bombardment starting. Protects him.

What utter bullshit. Again. Loken lived, therefore I am fully expecting them to pull Tarvitz and Vipus back in, they'll probably join Malcadors Knights as well.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Knowing my luck Tarvitz will come back but be the first victim of Lucius's possession ><


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Loken perfectly portrayed the realities of war, and especially the Heresy was played. I just don't see how anyone feels heart broken that the traitor legions fell to the ruinous powers after they brought Loken back.

The butchering of the loyalists is supposed to be viewed in horror and depict the insanity and warped minded state that the traitors fell into. It was almost as though someone was literally ripping his own body apart. We were all supposed to look in horror as those limbs that had become such an important part of that person and in this case the Imperium being cast down and destroyed. Loken, along with the thousands of other loyalists who were able to dig holes and hide, really take away from the tragic story of the traitors falling. 

The Heresy story now seems more like the imperfect Imperium fighting the perfect Imperium, rather than perfection tearing itself from within.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?


This has actually reminded me that the big questions after GiF came out was would Rylanor reappear in the series, not Loken. People unquestioningly accepted that Loken was dead, but Rylanor was last seen heading deeper underground, thus giving him more of a chance of surviving, never mind the fact that he was a contemptor dreadnought. His return wouldn't have been as laughable, and a contemptor striding around with the knights errant would have been way cooler.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> This has actually reminded me that the big questions after GiF came out was would Rylanor reappear in the series, not Loken. People unquestioningly accepted that Loken was dead, but Rylanor was last seen heading deeper underground, thus giving him more of a chance of surviving, never mind the fact that he was a contemptor dreadnought. His return wouldn't have been as laughable, and a contemptor striding around with the knights errant would have been way cooler.


If i remember correctly, mcniell said he will be writing short story on rylanor...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Knowing McNeill's flare for a shit twist. Loken as 'Cerberus' probably kills him somehow.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> Knowing McNeill's flare for a shit twist. Loken as 'Cerberus' probably kills him somehow.


Did you at least like the whole cerberus bit?


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I wonder how many other people found out about Loken's return when they started reading Vengeful Spirit...

How annoying those short stories, audio dramas and limited editions are. Imagine JK Rowling did the same halfway through the Harry Potter series? Started releasing loads of mini stories, maybe an audio drama where Cedric Diggory returns? :biggrin:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I found out about it through the osmosis on the forums I frequent. Because I don't pick up the audio's dealing with Garro etc (as a series within a series, it didn't come across as part of the Heresy in general), and have literally only just started listening to the audios elsewhere, if I didn't spend so much time around these forums, I'd have known nothing about it.


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## LokiDeathclaw (Jun 19, 2013)

I found out by reading vengeful spirit. I think Saul Tarvitz would have been a better choice then an emotionally damaged marine of dubious loyalty and abilty (compared to the other knights errant).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LokiDeathclaw said:


> I found out by reading vengeful spirit.


Were you not incredibly confused?


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## LokiDeathclaw (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah I was. Only really found out the back story through this forum really. I dont buy the LE novella's or audio books so had no prior awareness so I was pretty confused when a damaged Loken strolls over for a chat witn Malcador and Russ. The PTSD affected Loken character really didnt seem to fit the setting in my opinion but I guess thats why they had a SW knight errant there to execute him if he turned........


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I blame Ben counter for this mostly. Loken should have died but way it was written was just blah. Yes we understand he is a hero of series but so are bad guys. He should have died to show that he is just one small hero among numerous others and tragedy of massacre would have affected people even more.

And his appearance in Vengefull spirit was totally unnecessary and poorly executed. Another extremely lucky escape, he will be dodging every bullet like some superman.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Dead. Deader. And thrice Deaded!

However, his "death" was utter shite and should have been either a final duel with Horace, or as mentioned elsewhere, a sudden unexpected death just like thousands of other Astartes.


Anyhoo..... :drinks:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> How does that work for you? A Cathedral, fell on him, after he had already been beaten half to death by Abaddon. And once again. how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?


I can buy a Space Marine surviving all that, not in any kind of good shape mind you and definitely as a "miracle" type event that shouldn't happen again, but I can buy it. As for them; Tarvitz is dead and should stay dead, Rylanor and Vipus on the other hand... I could accept them being alive because of the hidden shuttle thread in Fulgrim that was briefly hinted at, they could have escaped. Would they? I don't know, maybe if they felt they had to but I am not sure. Rylanor and Vipus showing up again would be pretty cool, especially since I felt Rylanor was criminally under-used. Tarvitz though... yeah him showing up again would be for me what Loken returning has been for most of the people here.



Roninman said:


> I blame Ben counter for this mostly.


I don't, though that is because I am one of the number that don't believe Ben Counter wrote the two Horus Heresy novels that he is credited with. I've read all of Counter's 40k stuff and neither Galaxy in Flames or Battle for the Abyss have the narrative style and descriptive flair that all of Counter's other works have; therefore I think that GiF and BftA were ghost-written by someone else.


LotN


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Lord of the Night said:


> I can buy a Space Marine surviving all that, not in any kind of good shape mind you and definitely as a "miracle" type event that shouldn't happen again, but I can buy it. As for them; Tarvitz is dead and should stay dead, Rylanor and Vipus on the other hand... I could accept them being alive because of the hidden shuttle thread in Fulgrim that was briefly hinted at, they could have escaped. Would they? I don't know, maybe if they felt they had to but I am not sure. Rylanor and Vipus showing up again would be pretty cool, especially since I felt Rylanor was criminally under-used. Tarvitz though... yeah him showing up again would be for me what Loken returning has been for most of the people here.
> 
> 
> I don't, though that is because I am one of the number that don't believe Ben Counter wrote the two Horus Heresy novels that he is credited with. I've read all of Counter's 40k stuff and neither Galaxy in Flames or Battle for the Abyss have the narrative style and descriptive flair that all of Counter's other works have; therefore I think that GiF and BftA were ghost-written by someone else.
> ...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> I can buy a Space Marine surviving all that, not in any kind of good shape mind you and definitely as a "miracle" type event that shouldn't happen again, but I can buy it. As for them; Tarvitz is dead and should stay dead, Rylanor and Vipus on the other hand... I could accept them being alive because of the hidden shuttle thread in Fulgrim that was briefly hinted at, they could have escaped. Would they? I don't know, maybe if they felt they had to but I am not sure. Rylanor and Vipus showing up again would be pretty cool, especially since I felt Rylanor was criminally under-used. Tarvitz though... yeah him showing up again would be for me what Loken returning has been for most of the people here.


I just don't buy it. And simply won't either. Space Marines can survive a lot of shit. A City being obliterated is not one of them. If Loken lived, then Tarvitz should be alive too. Not that I want Tarvitz to be alive. I would rather they all stay dead. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he survived as well now.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> I just don't buy it. And simply won't either. Space Marines can survive a lot of shit. A City being obliterated is not one of them. If Loken lived, then Tarvitz should be alive too. Not that I want Tarvitz to be alive. I would rather they all stay dead. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he survived as well now.


But lolens survival means something. The mournival represents horus as a whole, each member a quarter of him. By killing of LOKEN and Tarik, horus thought to kill off the weaker parts of himself. Lokens survival in my opinion, gives horus self doubt now. And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It really doesn't.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> It really doesn't.


I guess you only read 40k for the big battttttttttles


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes mate. That's exactly it. I only read for battles and death and shooty pew pew space guns and splosions maaaaaannnnnnnnn. Because I'm too thick to actually read something with actually decent prose, characterisation and no self contradictory continuity errors.

Meanwhile, I don't know what shit you're smoking when you're trying to find all this hyperbolic nonsense you're spewing. "Killing off the weaker part of him"... Jesus.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> Yes mate. That's exactly it. I only read for battles and death and shooty pew pew space guns and splosions maaaaaannnnnnnnn. Because I'm too thick to actually read something with actually decent prose, characterisation and no self contradictory continuity errors.
> 
> Meanwhile, I don't know what shit you're smoking when you're trying to find all this hyperbolic nonsense you're spewing. "Killing off the weaker part of him"... Jesus.


I believe McNeill himself said what i said lol


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Would be helpful if McNeill wrote that in his stories then. McNeill's a dick, personality wise, and he couldn't write a decent book or story.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> Would be helpful if McNeill wrote that in his stories then. McNeill's a dick, personality wise, and he couldn't write a decent book or story.


I've never met him so I can't comment on his personality, but his stories are hit and miss


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death


And therefore utterly ruin any credibility the series ever had.

Horus 'turns good', if that's what you want to call it, as the Emperor was in the process of obliterating him and the Chaos Gods withdrew themselves from his mind and presence. Loken, Ollanius, Sanguinius, had nothing to do with it.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

And then Horus throws the Emperor off a balcony and into the reactor. He collapses and Loken kneels down to look into his fathers eyes.
"I've got to save you."
Horus smiles sadly.
"You already have, Luke......."

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wait a minute......?


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Tawa said:


> And then Horus throws the Emperor off a balcony and into the reactor. He collapses and Loken kneels down to look into his fathers eyes.
> "I've got to save you."
> Horus smiles sadly.
> "You already have, Luke......."
> ...


Loken, I am your father


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ahhhh one of the most misquoted movie lines of all time.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> But lolens survival means something. The mournival represents horus as a whole, each member a quarter of him. By killing of LOKEN and Tarik, horus thought to kill off the weaker parts of himself. Lokens survival in my opinion, gives horus self doubt now. And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death


See, this is why the way he was 'killed' and the poor confrontation in Vengeful Spirit were both bad.

To use the metaphor; Horus killed his jovial and thoughtful dispositions with his anger and dourness. Fairly on the head. But removing Horus' agency one step wasn't the neatest device. If he'd just killed Loken himself it would have been far more satisfying narratively and thematically than using the (badly) set-up Mournival. The Mournival tearing its brotherhood apart works fine, but that could have been done alongside Horus himself stepping forward to kill Loken and Torgaddon. It was a squandered opportunity, presumably done because the intention was always to leave it open for Loken to return, and having a Primarch fail to off him would have been pushing acceptable narrative coherence.

So once he came back, this character who represents Horus' considered thoughtfulness, he really has to confront him. But that should have been saved for later on in the series, when it would have had some sort of thematic impact and introduced a change in Horus' behaviour - being confronted with a form of, if not conscience, then at least a straightforward 'hey this is what you've done and become, it's really far from what is a sensible person' should have some effect on Horus. It would also be another opportunity (although not as neat) to have Horus kill off that aspect. 

You see, we are supposed to believe that Horus, by the time of the final battle, goes full proper evil no more mr nice gaius. Apart from the little ***** of goodness that is reawakened at his very end. So Horus is going to get worse, not better, despite Loken slapping him in the grey matter metaphorically. So it's a busted trope, it didn't work and was a waste of time, constructively speaking. And also just narratively as all that plot strand did was throw away the Little Horus/Loken thing and kill Qruze. Okay, I guess it made Loken a bit saner and together, but we weren't in a rush, he could have stayed in his moon garden for a while yet. Cards got played too early.

Sure, maaaybe some awful contrivance like the something that reminds Horus of Loken will end up in the final battle, but that would be god-awful schlock writing.

Loken being dead would have been the best result.
But him being alive wasn't automatically bad and it could have been good.
But what they've done with him has been bad.

The thematic pacing is close to being completely shot to buggery in the series IMHO.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Mob said:


> See, this is why the way he was 'killed' and the poor confrontation in Vengeful Spirit were both bad.
> 
> To use the metaphor; Horus killed his jovial and thoughtful dispositions with his anger and dourness. Fairly on the head. But removing Horus' agency one step wasn't the neatest device. If he'd just killed Loken himself it would have been far more satisfying narratively and thematically than using the (badly) set-up Mournival. The Mournival tearing its brotherhood apart works fine, but that could have been done alongside Horus himself stepping forward to kill Loken and Torgaddon. It was a squandered opportunity, presumably done because the intention was always to leave it open for Loken to return, and having a Primarch fail to off him would have been pushing acceptable narrative coherence.
> 
> ...


After thinking about it I think lolen will have a much bigger effect on aximand.But the main rEason I'm ok with lokens survival is because I strongly believe The authors will have an amazing reason for it.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

I'd like to happily agree with you, but McNeil has put me off with his responses of 'I'm the author, I know more than you, I know what I'm doing, you'll be sorry you doubted me when you read the awesome thing I've got cooking' when his storytelling sense has been questioned, especially as the awesome things weren't so awesome. 
Him trotting it out in the afterword to Vengeful Spirit again after seemingly taking over the direction of Loken isn't filling me with confidence.
However, we'll see where he goes with the Crimson King I guess, he's been setting that up nicely, although parachuting Lucius into the 1KSons plot strand is making me raise an eyebrow a little.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Vaz said:


> The parody, and play on that deeper meaning is Abnett when he's at his best, and not flogging versions of Sharpe or Pearl Harbour in space. The events that happened within that original trilogy have the hallmarks of those stories.
> 
> In that, we see the figurehead; Loken. He's our talisman, our compass bearing, true north. He's a brutal killer, an antihero, but one who recognises his role as a xenophobic mass murderer as a necesity. Little touches like hiding the compassion of the Astartes from the remembrancers enhances things like this, as well as their almost autistic dealings with the non-astartes when not in a combat situation. They recognise they are living weapons, but Loken is among the most human we have come across. He is our eyes and our view of the events are tainted by his thoughts, and we have an attachment to him, because they roughly align with our own.
> 
> ...


I think you did a good comparison with the _A Song of Ice and Fire_-series.



Garviel loken. said:


> But lolens survival means something. The mournival represents horus as a whole, each member a quarter of him. By killing of LOKEN and Tarik, horus thought to kill off the weaker parts of himself. Lokens survival in my opinion, gives horus self doubt now. And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death





Vaz said:


> Meanwhile, I don't know what shit you're smoking when you're trying to find all this hyperbolic nonsense you're spewing. "Killing off the weaker part of him"... Jesus.


I would think it's a good interpretation of what transpired in that novel.



Mob said:


> I'd like to happily agree with you, but McNeil has put me off with his responses of 'I'm the author, I know more than you, I know what I'm doing, you'll be sorry you doubted me when you read the awesome thing I've got cooking' when his storytelling sense has been questioned, especially as the awesome things weren't so awesome.


The whole timeline issue which happened in _TOD_ and he tried to explain in _Wolf Hunt_ is one good example of this.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Abd then with Morty in Vengeful spirit too.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Abd then with Morty in Vengeful spirit too.


Have yet to read that novel, but I've heard the character made a drastic personality change between _Scars_ and _Vengeful Spirit_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Have yet to read that novel, but I've heard the character made a drastic personality change between _Scars_ and _Vengeful Spirit_.


There's a drastic change, and then there's someone appearing to have been possessed by a completely different person. Mort is the latter of those two. Retarded doesn't even begin to describe.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Even though Vengeful spirit had most favourite characters in it, i consider it totally awfull book. Many changes to characters just suddenly, totally idiotic battle scenes, Loken sent with stupid mission among other things. Worst from Graham so far in HH series.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> There's a drastic change, and then there's someone appearing to have been possessed by a completely different person. Mort is the latter of those two. Retarded doesn't even begin to describe.





Roninman said:


> Even though Vengeful spirit had most favourite characters in it, i consider it totally awfull book. Many changes to characters just suddenly, totally idiotic battle scenes, Loken sent with stupid mission among other things. Worst from Graham so far in HH series.



Yeah, I've only heard as such. It's a shame as it had such high potential and people had been looking forward to see Horus again.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

forkmaster said:


> Yeah, I've only heard as such. It's a shame as it had such high potential and people had been looking forward to see Horus again.


My least favourite thing from graham in general is how he takes cool one liners from other authors and ruins them...."today we march for molech" 

Fuck of McNeill


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> My least favourite thing from graham in general is how he takes cool one liners from other authors and ruins them...."today we march for molech"
> 
> Fuck of McNeill


Which particularly author and which book did he steal that from?


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

forkmaster said:


> Which particularly author and which book did he steal that from?


either in know no fear, or Unremembered empire an ultramarine said "Today we march for Calth" wich is a parody itself from "we march for Macrage" (however you spell it)


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

forkmaster said:


> Which particularly author and which book did he steal that from?


Dan abnett know no fear, VENTANUS says today we march for calth


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> My least favourite thing from graham in general is how he takes cool one liners from other authors and ruins them...."today we march for molech"
> 
> Fuck of McNeill


You mean apart from his timeline breaking, continuity breaking, poor characterisation, poorer prose, shit action writing... we're reading Bolter porn, and that is the best people can come up with.

I'm half expecting yippeekieyay modther fragger though,I k.ow what you mean.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

I think his main faults are the aforementioned timeline / continuity meddling (which he just seems to do because he can, the end results are always weaker than the starting position), important character progression happening off-page, and his needless world-shrinking. Not everyone should have a book of Karkasy poems, be a fan of the artists from Fulgrim or be a distant ancestor of someone we know exists in 40K. 
It would also be nice if he hadn't made his 40K Iron Warriors all the most important half-dozen dudes in the legion 10,000 years earlier who now have nowhere to go in terms of character. 

Oh and while his real-world reference inclusion was cute at first it started to get cringe in Angel Exterminatus, and then the bit where Horus literally stops to explain to the reader the real world origin of Abaddon's name in Vengeful Spirit and how relevant thematically it is to the GW character was _astonishingly_ obnoxious.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Haskanael said:


> either in know no fear, or Unremembered empire an ultramarine said "Today we march for Calth" wich is a parody itself from "we march for Macrage" (however you spell it)





Garviel loken. said:


> Dan abnett know no fear, VENTANUS says today we march for calth





Garviel loken. said:


> Dan abnett know no fear, VENTANUS says today we march for calth


Yeah, the quote is old and used a lot amongst the Ultramarines. Graham is the author behind the 40k-version of the Ultramarines-series, so I would see it more as a hint to that rather than outright stealing.



Mob said:


> I think his main faults are the aforementioned timeline / continuity meddling (which he just seems to do because he can, the end results are always weaker than the starting position), important character progression happening off-page, and his needless world-shrinking. Not everyone should have a book of Karkasy poems, be a fan of the artists from Fulgrim or be a distant ancestor of someone we know exists in 40K.
> It would also be nice if he hadn't made his 40K Iron Warriors all the most important half-dozen dudes in the legion 10,000 years earlier who now have nowhere to go in terms of character.
> 
> Oh and while his real-world reference inclusion was cute at first it started to get cringe in Angel Exterminatus, and then the bit where Horus literally stops to explain to the reader the real world origin of Abaddon's name in Vengeful Spirit and how relevant thematically it is to the GW character was _astonishingly_ obnoxious.


Yeah, that feels like a real breaking the illussion and 4th wall in a bad way. One thing when they say Horus was destined to fall, but another to talk about the origins of Abaddons name.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Yeah, the quote is old and used a lot amongst the Ultramarines. Graham is the author behind the 40k-version of the Ultramarines-series, so I would see it more as a hint to that rather than outright stealing.


McNeill, hinting his own work? Naaaaah, he NEVER does that.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> Yeah, the quote is old and used a lot amongst the Ultramarines. Graham is the author behind the 40k-version of the Ultramarines-series, so I would see it more as a hint to that rather than outright stealing.


And hint is Ventanus having a blue snake as his chosen iconography.

What Graham McNeil does is base plots around his 40K books.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

"I was there the day horus fell"

Fuckin McNeill


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> And hint is Ventanus having a blue snake as his chosen iconography.
> 
> What Graham McNeil does is base plots around his 40K books.


I'm not a big fan of McNeil's, but you're mixing up your authors here. It's Saur Damocles who has the "figure-of-eight serpent emblem", and the tie-in there is between Abnett's _Know No Fear_ and _Brothers of the Snake._ Mileage will obviously vary on how much a reader might like this sort of tie-in, but I was happy to see a Chapter's hitherto unknown origins revealed.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not a big fan of McNeil's, but you're mixing up your authors here. It's Saur Damocles who has the "figure-of-eight serpent emblem", and the tie-in there is between Abnett's _Know No Fear_ and _Brothers of the Snake._ Mileage will obviously vary on how much a reader might like this sort of tie-in, but I was happy to see a Chapter's hitherto unknown origins revealed.


I know that? That's why I gave it as an example as a hint. 

As opposed to "Guys, guys, I'm not giving anything away, but here's an entire book dedicated to creating a character in another book that might have had Iron warriors in it. With an Imperial Fist in it. Oh, an his name's a horribly contrived "Honourable Soulaka, you'll never guess who".

It says a lot that I can't really explain the rest of what happens in Angel Exterminatus other than that.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> As opposed to "Guys, guys, I'm not giving anything away, but here's an entire book dedicated to creating a character in another book that might have had Iron warriors in it. With an Imperial Fist in it. Oh, an his name's a horribly contrived "Honourable Soulaka, you'll never guess who".


Really? I didn't see the Honsou reveal coming at all.....................................................


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> I know that? That's why I gave it as an example as a hint.


Apologies, Vaz - I completely misinterpreted your post! Color me embarrassed!


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Really? I didn't see the Honsou reveal coming at all.....................................................


Who's that......? :laugh:


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