# Death From the Skies and 40K February FAQ Updates



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated FAQs for some armies are out

Grab em here

Seems to be Fliers only updates and a cheap way to force people into buying that new fliers compendium.

Oh look, the Death From the Skies FAQ is out, before anyone has even received the book...
New record?

Death From the Skies FAQ

Here are ALL the updates from all the updated FAQs.
*Rulebook Update:*
Reference Section – Profile, Codex: Space Marines –
Vehicles, Stormtalon Gunship.
Change unit type to Vehicle (Flyer, Hover).

Q: Land Speeder Storms, Stormraven Gunships and
Stormtalon Gunships are all listed as Space Marine vehicles
in the Reference section. Does this mean that every Space
Marine Chapter now has access to these vehicles as well (i.e .
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights etc.)? (p411)
A: No – you may only select units and vehicles that are
available in the army list section of your codex. The two
exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships,
which are only available to armies chosen from Codex:
Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars. The rules for these
Flyers can be found in the Death From the Skies
compendium.

*Ork Update:*
White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer
can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

*Space Marines Update:*
White Dwarf June 2012 (UK WD390)
Updated rules for the Stormtalon Gunship and Stormraven
Gunship can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

*Blood Angels Update:*
Page 38/94 – Stormraven Gunships, Skies of Blood.
Replace this rule with the following:
Skies of Fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6",
passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:
Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that
turn and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that
point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must
immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test. If any of the
models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyed, as per
a Terrible Accident result on the Deep Strike Mishap table.
Models that disembark using the Skies of Fury special rule
cannot charge in the turn that they do so.

Page 38/94 – Stormraven Gunship, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.

Q:What happens to an embarked Dreadnought that suffers an
Immobilised result from the hit when the Stormraven it is
embarked in Explodes? (p37)
A: The Immobilised Dreadnought is placed within 3" of the
large blast marker, as per the Crash and Burn rules.

*Dark Eldar Update:*
Page 46/93 – Razorwing Jetfighter, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.

Page 47/93 – Voidraven Bomber, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.

*Grey Knights Update:*
Page 37/93 – Stormraven Gunships, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.

Page 37/93 – Stormraven Gunships, Shadow Skies.
Replace this rule with the following:

Skies of Fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6",
passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:
Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that
turn and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that
point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must
immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test. If any of the
models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyed, as per
a Terrible Accident result on the Deep Strike Mishap table.
Models that disembark using the Skies of Fury special rule
cannot charge in the turn that they do so.

Q:What happens to an embarked Dreadnought that suffers an
Immobilised result from the hit when the Stormraven it is
embarked in Explodes? (p37)
A: The Immobilised Dreadnought is placed within 3" of the
large blast marker, as per the Crash and Burn rules.

*Imperial Guard Update:*
Page 56/101 – Valkyrie Assault Carrier, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike and Scout special rules.

Page 56/101 – Vendetta Gunship, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike and Scout special rules.

*Necrons Update:*
Page 50/95 – Doom Scythe, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.

Page 51/91 – Night Scythe, Special Rules.
Remove the Deep Strike special rule.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems to be Fliers only updates and a cheap way to force people into buying that new fliers compendium.


yup.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Very nice find MCC! I didn't even see this until someone pointed it out in the Flyer thread.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Guess the avenger got a whole lot better.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

The change to dreadnoughts not being removed outright from immobilized results after a Stormraven gets blown up is a pretty nice gesture. I guess it reflects that the immobilization could have occurred on landing as opposed to in the blast.

Ultimately, just an update to make you want to read the new Fliers book for sure. Oh, and let's not forget the ultimate change of the names of Shadow Skies and Skies of Blood to _Skies of Fury_. Shiver me tits.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Knew I should have posted here instead of General 40K. But it only applies to that game and I still beat you to it. Heehee. :victory:


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

Question: Does this new ruling, the Skies of Fury, mean that Grey Knight Interceptors no longer have their incredibly precise descent?


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Mathai said:


> Question: Does this new ruling, the Skies of Fury, mean that Grey Knight Interceptors no longer have their incredibly precise descent?


GW "Who knows, we do have this awesome new book about fliers out! Maybe the answer can be found in it?!"


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

Then I shall pretend to be interested in purchasing the book long enough to browse 'random' pages that coincidentally have the answer to my question. 

...Of course it'll probably be shrinkwrapped >.<


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Mathai said:


> Question: Does this new ruling, the Skies of Fury, mean that Grey Knight Interceptors no longer have their incredibly precise descent?


Unit special/specific rules that apply during Deep Strike still apply. Descent of Angels affects Blood Angel jump units whether they Deep Strike or disembark as if Deep Striking. So they still scatter only D6. Of course, even jump units take dangerous tests now if they scatter. So much for Jump Packs slowing the drop. So if the Interceptors had the rule it still applies.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Interceptors don't have any special abilities if they are Deep Striking so given their precise decent isn't part of the rule any more they don't get it any more.


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## Worthy (Feb 10, 2013)

I can't get the updates on my mobile device, but did the Heldrake get any update or do they remain the same?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Worthy said:


> I can't get the updates on my mobile device, but did the Heldrake get any update or do they remain the same?


CSM didn't get an update in this batch, so yes it's still the same as last month which means it can still poop fire 360 degrees, measured from the base.


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## maelstrom48 (Sep 5, 2012)

ntaw said:


> The change to dreadnoughts not being removed outright from immobilized results after a Stormraven gets blown up is a pretty nice gesture. I guess it reflects that the immobilization could have occurred on landing as opposed to in the blast.


I just had a giggle thinking of a Dreadnought tumbling out of the sky, bouncing along the ground and landing in a heap, then getting up shakily and grumpily dusting himself off. "Never again... Sarcophagus smells like puke now..."

Vendettas without 'Scout' is a sad but necessary change. No more swooping in from the flank and penetrating a Predator on a 3+. I wonder if Death from the Skies changed up the points value.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

So this was pointed out on another forum and after looking it seemed worth mentioning:

The wording of the FAQs and inclusion of the Storm Talon on the BT products page suggests they're getting more than just the Raven.


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## Worthy (Feb 10, 2013)

Zion said:


> CSM didn't get an update in this batch, so yes it's still the same as last month which means it can still poop fire 360 degrees, measured from the base.


Thanks, I was worried that it would be hit with the nerf hammer.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

maelstrom48 said:


> I just had a giggle thinking of a Dreadnought tumbling out of the sky, bouncing along the ground and landing in a heap, then getting up shakily and grumpily dusting himself off. "Never again... Sarcophagus smells like puke now..."


"Emperor be praised, but this never gets easier..." 

I'll be hitting up the local GW on Tuesday to check this thang out.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Zion said:


> So this was pointed out on another forum and after looking it seemed worth mentioning:
> 
> The wording of the FAQs and inclusion of the Storm Talon on the BT products page suggests they're getting more than just the Raven.


or that they will be merged with the next SM book as has been rumoured...


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Zion said:


> CSM didn't get an update in this batch, so yes it's still the same as last month which means it can still poop fire 360 degrees, measured from the base.


I get that it's a big mechanical demon-dragon and still want to get to get one but 360 degrees did seem a bit overkill, maybe 180. Though I guess being a demon-dragon it probably would spit fire at whatever it vector-struck...



maelstrom48 said:


> Vendettas without 'Scout' is a sad but necessary change. No more swooping in from the flank and penetrating a Predator on a 3+. I wonder if Death from the Skies changed up the points value.


Creative maneuvering to the rescue! I could still see getting good shots off anyway. Just happy that it's entry vector is a bit more predictable.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm curious to know if there are any points changes, the Ork fliers are way too expensive for what they do whilst the IG ones are too cheap (perhaps even the Necron Nightscythe).

If there are no points changes and such then what's the point?

-But but you get the rules from WDs!

Which should have been a free pdf! You telling me I can buy this cool flier but can't use it in the game without buying this new book? A book that doesn't seem to be that supported by GW as it's in english only.

I fail to see the point of this book, a way to get the rules from the WDs is a really shitty argument. It's blatant moneygrubbing and an attempt to leech as much money as possible out of people.

How official is this thing really? English only means it's pretty much unsupported, so when exactly are you suppose to use it? When you wanna use the Ork Bomma and Skytalon (or whatever it's called)! Again the "I bought this awesome model but now I gotta buy a book just to be able to use it?" argument pops up in my head.
It makes an expensive model that's not that good even more expensive to buy.

I will take a look at the PDF once it pops up next week, unless there are points changes and wargear updates this thing is rather pointless imo. Even if there are, this thing just feels "unofficial". Like another supplement no one will ever play with because it deviates from normal gameplay and makes things "unbalanced".

It just feels like a scam to me...

I could of course be wrong and this thing is awesome...

A book that is "needed" if you want to use the Ork or SM flier yet it's only supported in English.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MadCowCrazy said:


> You telling me I can buy this cool flier but can't use it in the game without buying this new book?


Wouldn't that apply to pretty much any model used for 40k gaming ?


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Wouldn't that apply to pretty much any model used for 40k gaming ?


Not really...They don't make you buy another Grey knights supplement just to use your land raider do they? It's a bit different than buying a new codex when it comes out.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

MadCowCrazy said:


> If there are no points changes and such then what's the point?


Exactly how I feel really. I'm sure there is a point if it's a decent and official looking book with your unit stats in it which seems like a great concept to me. PDF's would make more sense...PP seems to be doing okay and they actually pack stats in the model's box. 

Directing players to buy an all new book online with awesome shipping prices simply to use a single unit is ridiculous. I would love a book with unit stats printed out, looking all nice, giving me some info on the aerial competition out there. Assuming it could stand on it's own and wasn't required for more to use a single model anyway. I have way more armies then I need and yet only one of them is even in this book and I don't even use the unit.

I mean it is nice to be able to get stats instead of having to hunt WD's but not nice enough I'm interested in a book that's 99% X-Factor.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Wouldn't that apply to pretty much any model used for 40k gaming ?


Well normally you buy a Codex with rules for everything in that army. In this case you get stats for a single model? If I play Space Marines I certainly don't need stats for a flying robotic french pastry for an army I don't play. Sure it's nice gee-wiz information but requiring me to buy an entire book just for the one thing I want and telling me I want everything else?

I think MadCowCrazy has a good point though; if it's only in English how offical can this be anyway? If nothing of real note was changed it's a dud.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Taggerung said:


> Not really...They don't make you buy another Grey knights supplement just to use your land raider do they? It's a bit different than buying a new codex when it comes out.


Maybe but you do get all of the data for all other armies, not just your own. If you want to know about enemy land raiders then you have to buy a heap of other books.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Are there any reviews for this book beyond its listing for the GW site? Anything that may have been leaked?


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I believe this is just a compendium of past rules for mass consumption. Throw in some pretty pictures, print it hardcover & full colour and profit just like the "campaign book". GW will not change points costs for army X in a suppliment rulebook, that just isn't going to happen.

As far as I can tell the only thing worth checking out in this whole book is (a) how much does a BT or C:SM Stormraven cost? (b) what missiles do BT or C:SM Stormravens come with?

As I play DE & Chaos, neither of those questions are pressing enough for me to spend $40.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

People seem to forget this is how 40k and fantasy for that matter used to work, they would put out interesting stuff and new rules for new units etc in WD for people to use in games and then when they had enough material they would do a compendium with the rules all in one place, granted this was 20 years ago and we didnt have the advantage of the internet to moan about it, but if like me you didnt pick up the WD with the rules in, or missed an issue or dont want to keep referring to a WD page, this book is a god send.
People criticise GW for not putting things in WD, then they criticise GW for putting things in WD, people criticise GW because the WD with new rules sell out,people criticise GW for producing a book with the sold out rules in.People Criticise GW for not communicating with fans, GW communicate with fans about there trade mark stance,GW get a shit load of abuse about it, GW are criticised because stores are full of kids using the boards and hogging painting tables,GW are criticised when they reverse that and become shops, People bitch about GW metal models being hard to build/paint/convert, they switch to resin and have a few teething issues and its like GW have started eating babies while doing Jimmy Saville impressions.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm keen to have all the various flyer rules in one bound copy.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> People seem to forget this is how 40k and fantasy for that matter used to work, they would put out interesting stuff and new rules for new units etc in WD for people to use in games and then when they had enough material they would do a compendium with the rules all in one place, granted this was 20 years ago and we didnt have the advantage of the internet to moan about it, but if like me you didnt pick up the WD with the rules in, or missed an issue or dont want to keep referring to a WD page, this book is a god send.
> People criticise GW for not putting things in WD, then they criticise GW for putting things in WD, people criticise GW because the WD with new rules sell out,people criticise GW for producing a book with the sold out rules in.People Criticise GW for not communicating with fans, GW communicate with fans about there trade mark stance,GW get a shit load of abuse about it, GW are criticised because stores are full of kids using the boards and hogging painting tables,GW are criticised when they reverse that and become shops, People bitch about GW metal models being hard to build/paint/convert, they switch to resin and have a few teething issues and its like GW have started eating babies while doing Jimmy Saville impressions.


...or they could have just put up the rules for pdf download on their webpage and all problems would have been solved...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> ...or they could have just put up the rules for pdf download on their webpage and all problems would have been solved...


i seriously doubt people would be willing to pay £20 for a bunch of pdfs.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I meant for free....


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I meant for free....


FREE?? I think someone unfamiliar with GW has hacked your account MCC


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> FREE?? I think someone unfamiliar with GW has hacked your account MCC


And this right here is the problem with GW atm, feels like they go out of their way to leech as much money as they can out of their customers. They have several armies done and completed, have had for years apparently but instead of releasing an army a month they release things that should have been free or at the most a WD release just to fill out the release schedule with something each month.

Even if GW did release a new army book or codex each month it would still take a few years to update everything, as it is now they are pretty much on a 30 year cycle. Each army should get updated for each edition of the game but that just wont happen as codicies are not profitable enough and GW wouldn't release the rules as free pdfs even if this would perhaps increase model sales.

They should put a sticker on every Ork Bomma and Storm Talon box stating you need to buy this new "addition" to the game in order to use them.
An Ork Bommer doesn't cost £27.50, the initial cost is £27.50 + £20 as you HAVE TO buy the compendium if you want to use it. Unless you download the rules through "illegal" means...

-"But the initial cost is much lower if you have the WD"
Which might be invalidated if this compendium has points changes or wargear changes. Storm Raven has a starting cost of £50 + £20 for SM and BT players as their rules have never been published. Unless they just copy paste the BA and GK rules which they wont do as the missiles are unique to each army.

FAQ says you should check out the Death From The Skies compendium for changes, yet it's only available in English so all non English speaking players are boned.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

lol - the FW "FaceSpace" response



> With Death from the Skies now on sale, and with thanks to numerous posts on our wall, consider this an official FAQ:
> 
> The rules don't overlap onto Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Any of our flyers that list Deep Strike among their special rules can still Deep Strike.
> Stormravens cannot carry Contemptors.
> ...


are we certain that FW is related to GW...besides the game system? :gimmefive:


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Oh look, the Death From the Skies FAQ is out, before anyone has even received the book...
New record?

Death From the Skies FAQ


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh look, the Death From the Skies FAQ is out, before anyone has even received the book...
> New record?
> 
> Death From the Skies FAQ



Well, that's, _extensive_....


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I know that this is only making a specific missile choice mandatory for Grey Knights, but I'm now curious to see if there are more options in the missile selection for fliers in general.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> i seriously doubt people would be willing to pay £20 for a bunch of pdfs.


Fantasy Flight games does this.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

ntaw said:


> I know that this is only making a specific missile choice mandatory for Grey Knights, but I'm now curious to see if there are more options in the missile selection for fliers in general.


FAQ confirms that the regular version of the Storm Raven comes with "stormstrike missiles". As it's the only flier (from what I've read) that will be a new choice for other armies it's pretty much a mandatory addition as the Bloodstrike and Mindstrike are army specific wargear. Then again the Storm Raven was army specific as well until now, guess it didn't sell enough kits.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> FAQ confirms that the regular version of the Storm Raven comes with "stormstrike missiles". As it's the only flier (from what I've read) that will be a new choice for other armies it's pretty much a mandatory addition as the Bloodstrike and Mindstrike are army specific wargear. Then again the Storm Raven was army specific as well until now, guess it didn't sell enough kits.


Or this is a cheaper way to add flyers to two armies without spending time, resources and mold budget money on new models.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MadCowCrazy said:


> And this right here is the problem with GW atm, feels like they go out of their way to leech as much money as they can out of their customers.


A business that is built on miniatures and the rules for a game of those miniatures actually wants to get money for what it produces? 

How can that come as unusual or a surprise.

Did the person who complied these rules do it for free? are the printers and shippers doing it because they are dedicated 40k'ers?

Bottom line. GW is a business with massive overheads and they need to make money.

I don't want my rules to be a print out from my own shitty bubble jet I want a groovy bound book. If you have the free printouts you can't make the book as no one will buy it.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Difference here is that they force you to get it. Sure you can ignore it and simply not get it, but then you cant use the Ork Bommer and those SM fliers (unless you track down the WD or donwload the rules illegally).

Like I said before, the Bommer, Storm Raven and Storm Talon cost an extra £20 now with this book. They should add the rules for them to the FAQs, not force you to buy a compendium for a single model for your army. It's not even a full page of rules for the units, all 3 could fit on a single A4 page.

I will be getting this book later this week or next week at the latest because I have no other choice, but I'm not gonna pay for it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

They "force" you to buy any of the rulebooks/Codicies. Just be thankfull they don't simply reprint each Codex with the new rule in it and you only have to pay $AU48 to get the update for all armies rather than $AU83 for a new Codex.

Don't worry mate, I'll pay to keep your hobby going you just steal what ever you want.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Who said I was stealin? The club is getting a copy so everyone can use it...
Kinda useless as only 2 ppl in the club even has fliers to begin with and the other guy has IG so has all the rules he needs anyways.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I will probably 'acquire' a digital copy. Thanks for helping Mags


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Who said I was stealin? The club is getting a copy so everyone can use it...
> Kinda useless as only 2 ppl in the club even has fliers to begin with and the other guy has IG so has all the rules he needs anyways.


Anything you get without paying would be stealing but of course if a group of you are chipping in to buy a copy that's fine by me.

Scoze can bite my bum tho'


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> They "force" you to buy any of the rulebooks/Codicies. Just be thankfull they don't simply reprint each Codex with the new rule in it and you only have to pay $AU48 to get the update for all armies rather than $AU83 for a new Codex.
> 
> Don't worry mate, I'll pay to keep your hobby going you just steal what ever you want.


Privateer Press does the correct method of doing rules imo...You buy the model, it comes with it's rules. There is a core rule book (Which is incidentally free as well I believe, and they do quite well as a business). What people are complaining is not that they have to buy rules, but that they must buy a new book that contains rules for armies you probably don't even use/own. IF they had made it so there is this new book, or the option to individually pay/download the rules for relevant units then it wouldn't be an issue. As it sits, I only have the dakka jet as a flier, and won't be getting any others, so I will happily go out, download my rules to play a model I did pay for, and not even think twice.

So you go ahead and be that white knight if that makes you feel better about yourself.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

scscofield said:


> I will probably 'acquire' a digital copy. Thanks for helping Mags


I will be downloading the pdf as well. I have every book GW and FW has ever put out on pdf, we also have every book at the local club but in my 4 years of gaming I have NEVER seen anyone use any of the rules from any of the books. I hate reading the paper rule books, I prefer to scroll through the pdfs as it's faster and you have the search function etc.
I've never even opened my Dark Eldar codex, it's been in the shelf since the DE came out. Got the pdf 7 days before release, read it and use it for all my needs.
The only thing I use the books for is when I play and I can't remember a rule or what a specific piece of wargear does.

I guess Battlemissions would be an exception, we tried that 3 Baneblade mission once and never opened the book after that.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Taggerung said:


> Privateer Press does the correct method of doing rules imo...You buy the model, it comes with it's rules. There is a core rule book (Which is incidentally free as well I believe, and they do quite well as a business). What people are complaining is not that they have to buy rules, but that they must buy a new book that contains rules for armies you probably don't even use/own. IF they had made it so there is this new book, or the option to individually pay/download the rules for relevant units then it wouldn't be an issue. As it sits, I only have the dakka jet as a flier, and won't be getting any others, so I will happily go out, download my rules to play a model I did pay for, and not even think twice.
> 
> So you go ahead and be that white knight if that makes you feel better about yourself.


well privateer press also release rule books and they also release rule books for new types of models, for example here is there latest release
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/books/warmachine-colossals
this is the book with the rules and stats for the new colossal models for each race, so if you want to use colossals in your warmachine game here is the book to make it possible, so GW and PP are doing the very same thing, yet GW are the villains ?

I agree with magpie, i dont want a pdf version unless its an exact copy of the paper version and it was free with my paper copy to be used on my tablet, otherwise i want a bound physical copy,full colour,loads of pretty pictures and fluffy shite that i can flick through while i drink a coffee and i dont mind paying for it.

I do also agree with taggertug, that each unit should come with some type of stat card in the box, even if it only meant units could be used in a limited way with dark vengeance.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

What is about all these guys who think they deserve a free ride?

Privateer Press "doing the right thing" is simply because they don't have the facilities to cover the costs of producing a properly printed series of books. It's any easy way to buy into the market that GW sustains.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I don't want my rules to be a print out from my own shitty bubble jet I want a groovy bound book. If you have the free printouts you can't make the book as no one will buy it.


Actually Paizo have proved that to be entirely not true, and they don't even have the model sales to fall back on, they are a pure rules/books outfit.



Paizo make all the *rules* content open, and even have a free pdf version. They keep all the IP closed though, so they can keep their world "pure" as GW would think of it. They then sell dirt cheap PDF versions of their rulebooks, which make great references, and also sell hard copies. If you subscribe to a book line, you even get the PDFs for free. Needless to say, I have more Printed Paizo books, than I do GW ones. They are better quality, and longer....but still based on a free rules system.... I just wish someone at GW would wake up and smell the coffee....


Fundamentally though, you are right. GW is a 1980s business model struggling to keep up with the times, and unless there is a *massive* shift in that business model (which will result in compromises some will *hate*) then the status quo is going to continue for a good while.

They have a model, it works for them, as proved by the fact that DnD has been owned by 3 companies in the time that GW has been going strong.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> well privateer press also release rule books and they also release rule books for new types of models, for example here is there latest release
> http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/books/warmachine-colossals
> this is the book with the rules and stats for the new colossal models for each race, so if you want to use colossals in your warmachine game here is the book to make it possible, so GW and PP are doing the very same thing, yet GW are the villains ?


That book you reference is more like an expansion, similar to apocalypse I believe, so not exactly the same thing since all the models in that book, when you purchase them, come with their own rules included.

I see what point you are trying to prove, but my entire point was that if there is a release of a new model and accompanying rule set, they should be available in a single version, free would be nice considering the cost of GW products, but even a paid version for each individual model if need be, HOWEVER when you have models such as a Vendetta or a Necron Scythe getting new updates rules, that SHOULD be done with an errata, not a shameless one language rules update book. In the end, it's great for people who want that, and well for those of us who find such a book absolutely a waste of money, then we shall go find it elsewhere on the interwebz. 

I myself, have every single codex downloaded, mostly for reference, but for each army I own models for, I have a paid for, hard copy of their codex, and I would expect everyone to have the same, and I just don't feel the same way about this kind of book, at all.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> What is about all these guys who think they deserve a free ride?
> 
> Privateer Press "doing the right thing" is simply because they don't have the facilities to cover the costs of producing a properly printed series of books. It's any easy way to buy into the market that GW sustains.


And yet they do. You can buy every single pdf they have of the rules in a couple of nice hard bound books. However, they also give you the rules for free, either online or with the models, since their money comes from the models, not the rules, and it's a way better way to get people into the hobby as it keeps initial costs down so it's easier to get started. 

I don't have a source on it, so this is given with a grain of salt, but supposedly WarMachine is actually outselling Warhammer. 40k is still the giant, and will be for quite some time I imagine, but it's not like Privateer Press is some small time fry pecking at GW's tail end. They seem to developed quite a following and profits as a result.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Taggerung said:


> That book you reference is more like an expansion, similar to apocalypse I believe, so not exactly the same thing since all the models in that book, when you purchase them, come with their own rules included.
> 
> I see what point you are trying to prove, but my entire point was that if there is a release of a new model and accompanying rule set, they should be available in a single version, free would be nice considering the cost of GW products, but even a paid version for each individual model if need be, HOWEVER when you have models such as a Vendetta or a Necron Scythe getting new updates rules, that SHOULD be done with an errata, not a shameless one language rules update book. In the end, it's great for people who want that, and well for those of us who find such a book absolutely a waste of money, then we shall go find it elsewhere on the interwebz.
> 
> I myself, have every single codex downloaded, mostly for reference, but for each army I own models for, I have a paid for, hard copy of their codex, and I would expect everyone to have the same, and I just don't feel the same way about this kind of book, at all.


well i did kinda see this book(death from the skies) in the same vane as Apocalypse, though i guess flyers are now pretty mainstream, im not saying this approach to flyers is the best way for the "customer" to get the info he needs, im not saying GW couldn't do it in a more customer friendly way or one that doesn't need people to hand over cash, its just personally i would prefer to hand over cash for a book, an actual physical object made of paper, im pretty old school, i wont buy music or movies unless i get a physical object, im have to rip a cd or movie to watch on my lap top, but i want the cd/dvd too. 
Personally i feel that print on demand or free pdfs just cheapens my hobby for me.

If i was to make a criticism about this release its that it only has the entries for whats already been released, personally i think people would be more positive if this book was combined with the release of flyers from the other races that currently have none, but i also think we are over thinking it, its only a book of rules which were previously available for free in WD.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Taggerung said:


> And yet they do. You can buy every single pdf they have of the rules in a couple of nice hard bound books. However, they also give you the rules for free, either online or with the models, since their money comes from the models, not the rules, and it's a way better way to get people into the hobby as it keeps initial costs down so it's easier to get started.
> 
> I don't have a source on it, so this is given with a grain of salt, but supposedly WarMachine is actually outselling Warhammer. 40k is still the giant, and will be for quite some time I imagine, but it's not like Privateer Press is some small time fry pecking at GW's tail end. They seem to developed quite a following and profits as a result.


Which is why in my home town I cannot buy any PP products and they don't maintain a local shop specialising in just PP products. I can't even buy hard copies of the PP stuff because no one bothers to stock them, why would they when you can get it all free. Also why bother collecting the PP stuff when there is nowhere to play the game. For that reason there is ZERO interest yet the GW games are booming.

There maybe a following for PP but the just simply do not have the global reach that GW does and will find it very difficult to assail GW's market unless there is some massive shift in the gaming community. I don't see that happening, of the guys in my area no one is the slightest bit interested in anything other than WHFB or 40K and that is not from lack of looking at other game systems. 

The main reason is that no other game system has the level of polish and support of GW and that counts.

As for getting guys started you can do that by playing an introductory game in the GW shop and then after that you can get a game off the other guys in the shop. I'd played 4 or 5 games before I'd even bought a mini when I first started out. Hands on with an OTT enthusiastic "shop guy" beats the shit out of anything you can download. 



bitsandkits said:


> Personally i feel that print on demand or free pdfs just cheapens my hobby for me.


This. 

I want my mini manufacturer to put as much effort into their products as I do. If I spend weeks painting my minis to the best standard I can reach, the last thing that I want is some shitty rulebook printed on my crappy bubble jet.



nevynxxx said:


> Fundamentally though, you are right. GW is a 1980s business model struggling to keep up with the times,


Or to put it another way a business model that has seen the company thrive since the 1980's and rise to totally dominate the market and continue to do so. I don't see a hell of a lot of struggling to be honest. I'd be very interested to see evidence that they are that goes beyond a suggestion that they are lying on their annual reports or the reduction in player numbers that could be attributed to 100 different causes outside GW, the recent GFC being prime amongst them.



bitsandkits said:


> but i also think we are over thinking it, its only a book of rules which were previously available for free in WD.


I guess that is why it is called a Compendium? 
Honestly we whine if something comes out in WD and nowhere else (Sisters of battle) and we whine if WD stuff is put into a book. 

Edit: for all the wrongness of it, the book has now sold out. Yep GW have got no idea how badly they are doing. Maybe if the stopped all that frantic running about and selling and trying to keep up with demand and had a bloody good look at themselves .......


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Wow it sold out quickly! seriously under estimated the demand me thinks, must have played it safe thinking that people wouldnt pick it up if they had bought the WD's, Just shows that even under these circumstances, direct only,english only, previously released,more than one army in the book and not all armies represented, GW can shift stock, nice little cheeky boost in Febuarys sales figures.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

It's not just a compendium, there are rules in it which have never been released before. The Storm Raven rules for SM and BT. You have NO other choice than to buy it if you play either for those armies and want to use one, and we are all constantly reminded of how many ppl play smurfs. I guess the SM players get boned for once, they always get the most releases and now they have to pay an extra £20 to be able to use that £50 model in their army.

About the WD whine about SoB, there would be NO PROBLEM is GW simply released the rules in a pdf for download on their website. ALL problems would be solved as far as being able to get the rules, if you dont have access to internet then you should worry more about putting food on the table than buying expensive SoB models.

Of course it sold out, it sold out 2 days ago in fact. It would be interesting to see what army the people who bought it play, wouldn't surprise me if 50-70% of them are SM players as you have no other choice (except for pdf download) if you want to use the Storm Raven in your SM or BT army.

I hope this doesn't lead to the next step in the game being done similarly, like a compendium for ground models that use the large oval base. All SM, BA, BT, SW, DA can now use the Dread Knight, but to do so you have to buy this compendium that also contains the rules for all other models that use the large oval base. All you gotta do is pay the £20 and you can now use the Dread Knight in your army.

5 years from now there will be 30 compendiums out, all costing £20 in which they allow you to buy any unit in the game for any army, they just change the name from Venom Cannon to Dual Las Cannon for the SMs version of the Carnifex. Which is a mechanical Carnifex you paint in Ultramarine Blue and is totally unique to the SM because of the paint scheme.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

No iBookstore version of the damned book? Seems I will once again have to "acquire" my digital copy. *sigh*


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's not just a compendium, there are rules in it which have never been released before. The Storm Raven rules for SM and BT. You have NO other choice than to buy it if you play either for those armies and want to use one, and we are all constantly reminded of how many ppl play smurfs. I guess the SM players get boned for once, they always get the most releases and now they have to pay an extra £20 to be able to use that £50 model in their army.


You have every choice. If you have the WD you can just update the appropriate bits, you can also chip in with your mates who own the same/other armies and all have access to the book. This is only as onerous a problem as you choose to make it.



MadCowCrazy said:


> About the WD whine about SoB, there would be NO PROBLEM is GW simply released the rules in a pdf for download on their website. ALL problems would be solved as far as being able to get the rules, if you dont have access to internet then you should worry more about putting food on the table than buying expensive SoB models.


If they did this then the Sisters of Battle would be condemned to a 2nd rate PDF Codex for ever. Who would bother buying a bound copy when the same stuff can be had for free? Why put money into a core product that you can't charge any money for?



MadCowCrazy said:


> Of course it sold out, it sold out 2 days ago in fact. It would be interesting to see what army the people who bought it play, wouldn't surprise me if 50-70% of them are SM players as you have no other choice (except for pdf download) if you want to use the Storm Raven in your SM or BT army.


Yeh there were 5 GW ninjas waiting for my son when we got home the other day. There was a bitter struggle while they attempted to drag him screaming onto the internet to buy the book for his Salamanders. Only my quick action to show the Ninjas that I have the WD supplement cut and pasted into the back of his Codex saved the day. Phew !



MadCowCrazy said:


> I hope this doesn't lead to the next step in the game being done similarly, like a compendium for ground models that use the large oval base. All SM, BA, BT, SW, DA can now use the Dread Knight, but to do so you have to buy this compendium that also contains the rules for all other models that use the large oval base. All you gotta do is pay the £20 and you can now use the Dread Knight in your army.


Not gunna happen is it. 

The whole point of this book is that the flyers are out of step with the rest of the Codices so rather than reprint all of them, this compendium serves as a stop gap. Over time its contents will be absorbed into the main codex for each army and will become redundant. So if you don't want to buy it now just wait for your army's new book.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Scans are out, I'm sure those who are interested in such things knows where to find them.

I dont have the WD with the rules so dont know if there are any changes in points costs.

Stormtalon Gunship 110Points
BS 4 11/11/11 2HP

Can change twin-linked heavy bolter for
Skyhammer missile launcher 15pts
Twin-linked lascannon 30pts
Typhoon missile launcher 35pts

Any change from the WD version?

Stormraven Gunship 200pts
BS 4 12/12/12 3HP

4 Storm strike missiles Range 72", S8 Ap2 -Concussive, One use only
Replace assault cannon with, plasma or lascannon for free
Heavy bolter for multi melta free, typhoon missile launcher 25pts
Side sponson hurricane bolters 30pts
Searchlight 1pt
Extra armour 5pts
Locator beacon 10pts

Blood Angel codex one has locator beacon at 15pts and extra armour at 15pts, same with the GK codex one (except the Locator beacon is called Teleport homer). GK one costs 205 because it has those special GK immunities.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Scans are out, I'm sure those who are interested in such things knows where to find them.

I dont have the WD with the rules so dont know if there are any changes in points costs.

Stormtalon Gunship 110Points
BS 4 11/11/11 2HP

Can change twin-linked heavy bolter for
Skyhammer missile launcher 15pts Range 60", S7 Ap4 - Heavy 3
Twin-linked lascannon 30pts
Typhoon missile launcher 35pts

Any change from the WD version?

Stormraven Gunship 200pts
BS 4 12/12/12 3HP

4 Storm strike missiles Range 72", S8 Ap2 -Concussive, One use only
Replace assault cannon with, plasma or lascannon for free
Heavy bolter for multi melta free, typhoon missile launcher 25pts
Side sponson hurricane bolters 30pts
Searchlight 1pt
Extra armour 5pts
Locator beacon 10pts

Blood Angel codex one has locator beacon at 15pts and extra armour at 15pts, same with the GK codex one (except the Locator beacon is called Teleport homer). GK one costs 205 because it has those special GK immunities.


I guess all SM factions will be able to use the Nephilim in a few months as well.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Any change from the WD version?


Ended up cheaper with more expensive options (but still slightly cheaper) I think.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Seems the people at Nova will be adding the new rules to the Nova FAQ.
Source


> via Mike Brandt at Whiskey & 40k
> How to Handle a $30 Direct-Only "Errata" as a TO
> So, Games Workshop released its Death from the Skies booklet, changing rules for several common and popular fliers in the game of 40k, adding them to codices, and only selling it direct order ... plus, selling it.
> 
> ...


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Next will be all the sooking and bitching when GW issues the C&D I suppose.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

And there's a FAQ allready on their website ... GW is becoming so bloody hilarious ...
Why can't they just sell ... complete and proof-read products ...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems the people at Nova will be adding the new rules to the Nova FAQ.
> Source


Who are Nova ?


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Next will be all the sooking and bitching when GW issues the C&D I suppose.


I'm curious to know if Nova can really put the changes into their FAQ, or what parts of this compendium that they can.

One way to do it would be to simply list the subtracted changes.

Example:
Storm Raven
Upgrade:
Locator Beacon -Costs 10 points less than your codex entry

With this they dont actually break GWs Copyright, not as far as I'm aware.

I dont think they can add those Fighter Ace rules, they are a waste for the most part though, 50pts for each flier to get a D3 chart of effects.

The Stormraven for all SM could look like this.

Storm Raven, any SM army may take a stormraven for the same points cost as listed in codex BA, must replace Bloodstrike missiles with BumBum missiles (that so happens to have the same stats as the new missile).

I'm sure there are ways of doing it, it's either this or simply banning the book outright as it's nothing more than an errata you have to pay for.

Why should someone get to have cheaper or better fliers than another person simply because they bought this compendium.




bitsandkits said:


> Who are Nova ?


From what the voices in my head are telling me it's one of the biggest wargaming conventions in the US. They also host one of the biggest 40k tournaments where some of the best players in the US compete.
I could be wrong though as I've never been but pretty much every podcast (all US based ones for sure) I listen to has mentioned, promoted and talked about Nova.

You can read more at: http://www.novaopen.com/


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

They might just be reproducing the whole thing and saying fuck it , take us to court, likely it would cost gw more to take them to court to recoup the loss than the loss would make them anyway.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> They might just be reproducing the whole thing and saying fuck it , take us to court, likely it would cost gw more to take them to court to recoup the loss than the loss would make them anyway.


Perhaps but would they have a choice? If they dont wouldn't that mean anyone could copy anything from any of their books and post it on the net?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> They might just be reproducing the whole thing and saying fuck it , take us to court, likely it would cost gw more to take them to court to recoup the loss than the loss would make them anyway.


What they do is simply work out the loss and then simply apportion this across the other products they sell.

One of the reasons we pay the prices that we do. 

Once GW prices go up all the other Mini manufactures are then clear to follow suit and the whole cycle starts again.

So really in the end we are the ones who loose out.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Perhaps but would they have a choice? If they dont wouldn't that mean anyone could copy anything from any of their books and post it on the net?


Not really, copyright does still exist in that case but for sure any case they might bring is weakened


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Perhaps but would they have a choice? If they dont wouldn't that mean anyone could copy anything from any of their books and post it on the net?


No, copyright doesn't work like that. Trade Marks have to be enforced like that, or they become invalid, but not copyright.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

So I can copy everything in any rulebook and post it online as long as I only post the rules, points costs etc. But no fluff or pictures?


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> So I can copy everything in any rulebook and post it online as long as I only post the rules, points costs etc. But no fluff or pictures?


If that's aimed at me no.... I said it "doesn't have to be" not "it wont be". 

I think the poster above was trying to say that they could publish differences as they are not actually breaching copyright, as it wasn't anything actually printed. I'd be tempted to think it would be a "derivitive work" but then you are into the real of different laws in different places, and how much GW wants to push it......

The safest bet is not to ever try and re-print anything that's copyright, without express permission.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Which is why in my home town I cannot buy any PP products and they don't maintain a local shop specialising in just PP products. I can't even buy hard copies of the PP stuff because no one bothers to stock them, why would they when you can get it all free. Also why bother collecting the PP stuff when there is nowhere to play the game. For that reason there is ZERO interest yet the GW games are booming.
> 
> There maybe a following for PP but the just simply do not have the global reach that GW does and will find it very difficult to assail GW's market unless there is some massive shift in the gaming community. I don't see that happening, of the guys in my area no one is the slightest bit interested in anything other than WHFB or 40K and that is not from lack of looking at other game systems.
> 
> The main reason is that no other game system has the level of polish and support of GW and that counts.


That really depends on where you live. Every FLGS iv been to in this corner of the states has warmachine and hordes nights just like a 40k and whfb nights. I dont even play a PP game system as I prefer 40k but that's because 40k is less about your super awesome heroes and the regular old troops, however all of my good friends from college/high school all play warmachine, so i have had lots of exposure.

Though you are correct on 2 points, 1; PP doesnt have their own stores, but from what I understand that is by choice and they prefer to sell through your flgs. 2; they do not have the global reach of Gw since they have only been in business for a 1/4 of the time. Give them time, as i know their presence around here is pretty huge, and if you go to any hobby store around NOT GW then they will be more supported than even 40k. Shit at PAX prime, this was the first time GW even had a table, and it was half the size of the PP setup...and up stairs in the land of shitty games and terrible vendors. Didnt stop me from purchasing a bunch of dkok though 

Excuse any typos, on the bus into work so on my phone.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MadCowCrazy said:


> So I can copy everything in any rulebook and post it online as long as I only post the rules, points costs etc. But no fluff or pictures?


You can post the points costs I believe but "in your own words" so basically if you reformat it it's kind of OK.

I just wait for an Army Builder update myself and usually end up buying the book any way.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

The Apocalypse 40K blog just posted the pics for the Storm Raven and Storm Talon

You can check em here before GW sends in their lawyers
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.fi/2013/02/storm-raven-and-storm-talon-rules.html


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> The Apocalypse 40K blog just posted the pics for the Storm Raven and Storm Talon
> 
> You can check em here before GW sends in their lawyers
> http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.fi/2013/02/storm-raven-and-storm-talon-rules.html


Nah, I'm good. I got the book instead of skulking about the internet looking for scanned copies.

Like I said in my overview the book is really only for a few people: those who collect all the books anyways, those who like campaigns and want more ideas, those who want alternate missions, and those who want the new flyer options for Black Templars and Vanilla Marines.

When you consider that it makes a lot of sense that it's direct only because it's not a mass appeal item. Either way I'm glad I picked up an actual copy because I'm a couple of those groups (collection and like reading about campaign ideas, though I may end up being the third as well).


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Zion said:


> Like I said in my overview the book is really only for a few people: those who collect all the books anyways, those who like campaigns and want more ideas, those who want alternate missions, and those who want the new flyer options for Black Templars and Vanilla Marines.


It's also for those who want cheaper upgrades for the Stormraven or for GK players who want to use the Stromraven as Heavy Support instead of Fast Attack.

I need more Heavy Support but still want Ravens, I'll just use the GK codex. Need more FA but want Ravens anyway? I'll just use the Supplement and get cheaper upgrades as well.

Or I'll use both at the same time, regular codex to get 3 Ravens in FA and this errata get to 3 Ravens in Heavy Support. Can't find anywhere where it says you cant or that this errata removes the option to do so.

Yupp, makes sense to me...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's also for those who want cheaper upgrades for the Stormraven or for GK players who want to use the Stromraven as Heavy Support instead of Fast Attack.
> 
> I need more Heavy Support but still want Ravens, I'll just use the GK codex. Need more FA but want Ravens anyway? I'll just use the Supplement and get cheaper upgrades as well.
> 
> ...


Gray Knights still have to take theirs as Fast Attack as per the FAQ for this Compendium so that doesn't work.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

So are you meant to use the wargear in the errata or from your codex?
I paid £20 for this book and because of this I get cheaper wargear for my flier. I wonder if they will FAQ the BA and GK codex to lower the points costs to what's in the errata.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

On of the cool things about 40k is that you can pretty much do as you please. It can be a easy or as convoluted as you want.

The choice is yours.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> So are you meant to use the wargear in the errata or from your codex?
> I paid £20 for this book and because of this I get cheaper wargear for my flier. I wonder if they will FAQ the BA and GK codex to lower the points costs to what's in the errata.


There are actual rules for wargear in the Compendium and it looks to be about the same honestly (Grey Knights and Blood Angels still have to take their respective missile options, and Grey Knights still get Fortitude, ect).

As for points cost for BA the only things that got cheaper where the locator beacon (by 5 points) and the Extra Armour (by 10 points). Grey Knights follow suit on the wargear, but the codex specific stuff (Truesilver Hull, Psybolts, ect) still costs whatever they cost in the codex.

Honestly I'm not seeing much here that really says "you NEED this book", more "if you want it, it's here, and there are a couple small perks for having it that rarely matter".


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

No Eldar...

*sticks to his guns and refuses to play any more 40k till Eldar get their plastic flyer*


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Bubblematrix said:


> No Eldar...
> 
> *sticks to his guns and refuses to play any more 40k till Eldar get their plastic flyer*


Points towards Forge World...

FW has 3 fliers at the £68-£69, you can compare it to Buying a Stormraven for £50 and then buying this errata for £20, will cost you £70.

So if you buy a FW flier and download the errata and IA book with the rules you pay as much as the SM guys and get a flier, you probably wont be allowed to use anyway because everyone knows IA is "op". If you buy more than one you lose £20 with each purchase (unless you buy from that chinese dude who casts FW for cheap and dont mind resin that will give you lung cancer...).


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Zion said:


> When you consider that it makes a lot of sense that it's direct only because it's not a mass appeal item.


I think there's a lot of that in 40K though so I don't see why having a couple copies would be bonkers. Not to mention it has C:SM stuff in it... seems logical to have 20 copies on the shelf at all times right there.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Points towards Forge World...
> So if you buy a FW flier and download the errata and IA book with the rules you pay as much as the SM guys and get a flier, you probably wont be allowed to use anyway because everyone knows IA is "op".


Probably one reason I never did grab a Storm Eagle. Though I think also having to pay nearly $200, getting a book and a single model, and unlikely to buy many more had something to do with it . Though I think "op" is pretty relative. With this book the DA flyer is priced out of existence with the Talon sitting at 75 points less (oh, but with only 2 HP) and for a couple more you almost get a flying Landraider. Couldn't imagine buying the two pack and ever actually using them...would look nice on a shelf though.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Not that the Nephilim isn't about 10-20pts over cost, but if you do a straight comparison of the Base Talon and the Base Neph (with Avenger to compare to the assualt cannon) there are some clear differences, for that 70pt difference you are getting: 

+1HP, +1 Main weapon attack (at double range), +2 missile shots, and a pretty decent anti-flyer special rule, and only losing ceramite armor. At optimum range the Talon will get 4x S6 shots and 3 S5 shots at =< 24". The Nephilim will put out 7x S6 shots and 3 S5 shots at =<36" range. Against AV 11 for the Main gun that is roughly 2 HP with 70% chance of a Pen for the Neph and 1 HP with a 60% chance of a pen for the Talon. With a slightly above average roll on the Heavy Bolters you will get 1 more HP on each. So the Neph can pretty reliably strip 2-3 HP from AV 11 at a further range than the Talon. (Against AV12 the Neph and the talon will only strip 1 but the talon will be a pen due to rending, which is where the Neph should take the Las Cannons). This is all barring any Jink saves, but there are negative to taking those.

In a straight up Dogfight the Neph will down a Talon before the Talon can shoot back, since it doesn't even need the Heavy Bolters to strip the HP. 

Now you can make the Talon better for a cost, but then the point differnce is only 35-40pts, and the Neph can still unleash more fire than the Talon and has the extra HP and the Unrelenting Hunter is a nice Special Rule vs any vehicle.

Like I said, I think the Neph is still overpriced, but not really so much in comparison to the Talon. Where the price difference really shows is against the Heavier Flyers like the Storm Raven which has as much firepower, heavier armor, and is a transport.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> Like I said, I think the Neph is still overpriced, but not really so much in comparison to the Talon. Where the price difference really shows is against the Heavier Flyers like the Storm Raven which has as much firepower, heavier armor, and is a transport.


Yeah, didn't notice the Talon only had 2 HP at first. The gap between it and the Raven is less by default but the disadvantage seems oddly larger. If the missiles were at least Str 8 I could maybe understand but at 6 you're mostly gambling for glances on a slightly more expensive target that can penetrate your armor as if it were glued on.

I guess you can make up the points elsewhere or with luck really but on paper it does look a bit odd.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

I agree the Neph should have better missiles. If it's missiles were on-par with the Storm Raven's (which they should be) then it's role as an anti-AV would be secured and the 180pt price tag would make sense. 1 TL S9 shot (or 5 S6 shots), 3 TL S5 shots, and 2 S8 shots in one turn would stand a good chance at wrecking most vehicles in one round of shooting. It would still reliably strip 2-3 HP with 2 Pens a turn on AV =<11, but would also now have a good chance at 2 Pen on AV 12 a turn.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Karyudo-DS said:


> I think there's a lot of that in 40K though so I don't see why having a couple copies would be bonkers. Not to mention it has C:SM stuff in it... seems logical to have 20 copies on the shelf at all times right there.


Do you have any idea on the expense involved in having 20 copies "just there" at all times, in all shops, in all countries?

There are about 350+ shops worldwide.

Lets say the margin on GW products is about 60% so that means it costs GW 12 quid to have the book in the shop that works out 84,000 pounds of stock that doesn't move. Depending on demand you'd probably need that much again to be in transit and that much again to be in production.

So to keep 20 copies on the shelf GW needs to have 250,000 quid laying "dead"

When you do the maths the reasoning behind order only becomes apparent, particularly for items that are uncertain as to their market acceptance.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Do you have any idea on the expense involved in having 20 copies "just there" at all times, in all shops, in all countries?


Being sarcastic, will use different font next time, sorry. :laugh:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Karyudo-DS said:


> Being sarcastic, will use different font next time, sorry. :laugh:


:shok: :grin: k:


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