# Eldar's view of the God Emperor of Mankind



## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Given their arrogant nature and their belief of humans being lesser mortals/animals, are there any direct references about eldar viewpoint on the ruler of mankind? ( Especially from bl novels?)


We know that demons and chaos gods are to some point terrified of Emperor and his psychic power, but what about the Eldar? Surely it wouldn't escape their attention? Or would they just deny a mon-keigh would ever be able to possess such a power?


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The Farseer in Legion, who's a member of the Cabal no less, acknowledges the Emperor is the only member of humanity who would be considered for membership in the directors of the organization due to his psyker skills and his 'long sight' for galactic development.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> The Farseer in Legion, who's a member of the Cabal no less, acknowledges the Emperor is the only member of humanity who would be considered for membership in the directors of the organization due to his psyker skills and his 'long sight' for galactic development.


Which is silly because he is on a different league than them. Someone beneath Malcador by several magnitudes would be a worthwhile candidate for the Cabal.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm guessing they'd view him as a typical specimen of the human race--violent in the extreme without an ounce of grace.

He crafted one of the (if not most) powerful human empires in history by strength of arms.

His psychic might and overwhelming intellect probably don't mean much to them. A human is a human is a human.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Which is silly because he is on a different league than them. Someone beneath Malcador by several magnitudes would be a worthwhile candidate for the Cabal.


They certainly did manage to assist in the 'self fulfilling prophecy' department. I've often wondered if foresight of the Cabal's meddling was one of the reasons for the Emperor's edict against Xenos.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I've often wondered if foresight of the Cabal's meddling was one of the reasons for the Emperor's edict against Xenos.


I have to disagree Over Two Meters Tall!! This edict was probably dealing more to do with humanities inate fear of the unkonwn; and those that differ from them. We have racism because people of one color do not trust people of another color on the basis they do not look (and sometimes act) like them. We have ethnicists who are afraid of another type of people based on their Historical Backround/Geographical positioning. Then we have just plain old fear of the other guy across the border who may come and take all that you have built/borrowed/beaten. 

The Emporer, forseeing this, probably decreed Xeno's outlawed because humanity would be unable to accept them into the Imperium. Plus the dangerous idea's they could spawn probably scared the High Lords of Terra; thus causing them to enact certain measures after the Emporer faded from view.

While I have not read all the horus Heresy books yet i have yet to see any substantial involvement by the Eldar in the shaping of early Imperial history. Anyone know anything on this matter?


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Eldrad has called the Emperor "weakling seer" our "corpse of a seer" who's arrogance shielded him from the truth when the eldar tried to warn him of Horus betrayal. 

For a human to be called a seer might be concidered a compliment. But from the above I think even the greatest human psyker is to the eldar nothing more than a child that has found his fathers gun.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> They certainly did manage to assist in the 'self fulfilling prophecy' department. I've often wondered if foresight of the Cabal's meddling was one of the reasons for the Emperor's edict against Xenos.


It's because various races preyed on humanity during the Age of Strife even former allies.



Moriouce said:


> Eldrad has called the Emperor "weakling seer" our "corpse of a seer" who's arrogance shielded him from the truth when the eldar tried to warn him of Horus betrayal.
> 
> For a human to be called a seer might be concidered a compliment. But from the above I think even the greatest human psyker is to the eldar nothing more than a child that has found his fathers gun.


And yet the Eldar, by far the most potent psyker race, have no one that can equal the Emperor's psychic might not even Eldrad by the looks of it.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet the Eldar, by far the most potent psyker race, have no one that can equal the Emperor's psychic might not even Eldrad by the looks of it.


Still a man who knows how to use his knife is more powerful than he who don't know how to use his rifle. I think it comes down to how you measure might. The eldar unconstrait led them to the Fall and the Emperor's led to the Heresy. But who has learnt most from their misstakes?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Moriouce said:


> Eldrad has called the Emperor "weakling seer" our "corpse of a seer" who's arrogance shielded him from the truth when the eldar tried to warn him of Horus betrayal.
> 
> For a human to be called a seer might be concidered a compliment. But from the above I think even the greatest human psyker is to the eldar nothing more than a child that has found his fathers gun.





Moriouce said:


> Still a man who knows how to use his knife is more powerful than he who don't know how to use his rifle. I think it comes down to how you measure might. The eldar unconstrait led them to the Fall and the Emperor's led to the Heresy. But who has learnt most from their misstakes?


This Post is Winning! 

Seriously Broadsword to a Scalpel. Eldar IMo are far more skilled Psykers, where the Emperor was a massive brute of a Psychic force.

The Emp could be seen as a WW2 Tank. Great Defense, and offense. Eldrad a WW2 Grunt with his Rifle and Grenade. A Tank can kill hundreds of these guys sure, but one of these guys can and have taken out said tanks if they were skilled enough. 

Not the best analogy, but one that comes to mind. The Emp was a powerhouse who was all about blunt showings of power. Eldar are not.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Whoa, before we jump on this Emperor-is-a-club bandwagon, where exactly does it suggest the Emperor has no finesse? Sources?

We see some skill in _The First Heretic_ when the Emperor implants the image of Monarchia, before its destruction, in Lorgar's mind. It's a pretty comprehensive picture.

Likewise in _Deliverance Lost_ when the Emperor speaks to Corax through Malcador (I'd assume without an Eldar wraithbone amulet like Ravenor), and then goes further to implant _very_ specific memories, remotely, mind you, to Corax.

Granted, these aren't definitive examples, but the lore we have on the Emperor is rather...limited.

If you guys have some specific examples showing his ham-fistedness, I'd be glad to read them!


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

hailene said:


> Whoa, before we jump on this Emperor-is-a-club bandwagon, where exactly does it suggest the Emperor has no finesse? Sources?
> 
> We see some skill in _The First Heretic_ when the Emperor implants the image of Monarchia, before its destruction, in Lorgar's mind. It's a pretty comprehensive picture.
> 
> ...



Ask the eldars. After all it is their view, and not our's, we're discussing.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> Whoa, before we jump on this Emperor-is-a-club bandwagon, where exactly does it suggest the Emperor has no finesse? Sources?
> 
> We see some skill in _The First Heretic_ when the Emperor implants the image of Monarchia, before its destruction, in Lorgar's mind. It's a pretty comprehensive picture.
> 
> ...


A example that comes to my mind, the Eldar foresaw the whole Heresy problem Years before it happen, Emperor was blinded till it really cost him. 

Heres another, Eldar mastered Webway tech and psy ability to use it for eons, while the Emp was having so much time and effort just to access a single webway portal. 

Also Emperor examples you gave are real basic modern day Psychic TV show stuff. Hardly that impressive. Communicating great distance is meh when he has the raw power to. Implanting thoughts and such is also meh when simple Jedi Mind tricks do the same in Star Wars. Nothing the Emperor has ever shown to be finesse or versatile power wise unlike Eldar. He shown great power, but thats it.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Wait, didn't the old ones build most/all of the webway? Or were they retconned out?


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Wait, didn't the old ones build most/all of the webway? Or were they retconned out?



Correct, they did. Eldar simply inheritage it but has never had the knowledge on how to replicate or maintain it. Atleast not post-fall, atleast not craftworld eldar. Dark Eldar might with their residence in the webway and their portable webway portals.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I think of the Eldar as effete snobs that have always had things handed to them, and humans as the poor cousins who have earned everything that they have via blood, sweat, and tears. The Eldar ruled the universe for years, but in the end their own incompetence and failure to see the situation for what it really was is the whole reason they fell.

In all actuality the 'true' Eldar are infact the Dark Eldar. They are what is left of the Eldar race as they truly evolved themselves. The ones that are in Codex: Eldar are the small percentage that saw the truth and decided to change themselves into a more 'green' culture ... fucking tree huggers. All of them are longer lived than a normal human and most are horrified by the thought of mechanical limb replacement, or cybernetic upgrades ... humans ... not so much. As a matter of fact, I would think that a large majority of humans would welcome it if it were a great benefit with no drawbacks.

The Emperor is more battle psyker oriented than any Eldar psyker is IMO. I have never read of any Eldar completely obliterating anyone's soul out of all existence. I could be wrong about that but I have never read anything to the contrary. One other thing to consider is that the Emperor also hid his existence from all for many millennia. If he can do that to the super psyker Eldar, then I think he is more powerful than even they could imagine that he is.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

OIIIIIIO said:


> ... The Eldar ruled the universe for years, but in the end their own incompetence and failure to see the situation for what it really was is the whole reason they fell.
> 
> In all actuality the 'true' Eldar are infact the Dark Eldar. They are what is left of the Eldar race as they truly evolved themselves. The ones that are in Codex: Eldar are the small percentage that saw the truth and decided to change themselves into a more 'green' culture ...


Ah yes, craftworld Eldar. The puritan pilgrims of the warhammer 40k universe.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Dark Eldar are the true Eldar in tech. Craftworld Eldar are true Eldar in Psy potential. They both have pros and cons. 

Also pretty sure both have knowledge on how to maintain the webway, and repair it, or add to it like the DE have.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> A example that comes to my mind, the Eldar foresaw the whole Heresy problem Years before it happen, Emperor was blinded till it really cost him.


It seems otherwise, at least from _The Outcast Dead_.

And even if this was the case, just because *SOME* Eldar (namely one) foresaw something the Emperor MAY not have seen, that doesn't mean the Emperor is hamfisted.

It just means (particular Eldar) saw something he did not.



Warlock in Training said:


> Heres another, Eldar mastered Webway tech and psy ability to use it for eons, while the Emp was having so much time and effort just to access a single webway portal.


The Eldar did not "master" the Webway. They inherited it from the Old Ones.

Also, the Webway has nothing to do with psychic finesse. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Nothing the Emperor has ever shown to be finesse or versatile power wise unlike Eldar.


Nothing has shown it to the contrary either. The funny thing about making claims is that you actually need support. The lack of support is not sufficient evidence when making a claim.

Key note: I am not making a claim other way. Is the Emperor a lumbering behemoth of a psyker? I do not know. Is he more subtle than the Eldar? I can not make that claim either. I lack sufficient evidence. Do you?
~~~~~~~

I don't have my codices on hand, but I think there's sections of the Webway beyond the means of the Eldar to repair. I'll double check this when I get home.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor consorting with the Pantheon speaks volumes about his abilities and the fact that he is the only uncorruptible being. The pantheon fear him and refer to him as the anathema while the Eldar cower the moment Slaanesh's name is mentioned.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> It seems otherwise, at least from _The Outcast Dead_.
> 
> And even if this was the case, just because *SOME* Eldar (namely one) foresaw something the Emperor MAY not have seen, that doesn't mean the Emperor is hamfisted.
> 
> ...


We will disagree. The Cabal of various Aliens and Eldar foresaw the whole Heresy as well Eldrad years before it happen. His own Son Magnus foresaw the events before the emperor did! Even Ahriman foresaw this crap to a degree in Thousand Sons.

Also while they inherit the Webway, they still are the masters of it while guys like Ahriman needed Millenniums to try invade it, or Magnus needed well prepared super spell to bust in. Speaks volumes in itself how advance the Eldar are whether they made it or not.

there is infact proof of Psychic Finesse in Codexes and Novels the Emp clearly never shown, and to assume he matches cause he is simply the Emperor is not a good argument for him.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Cabal of various Aliens and Eldar foresaw the whole Heresy as well Eldrad years before it happen.


It's eluded to that the Emperor did as well in _The Outcast Dead_.

The Heresy and his ultimate enthroning on the Golden Chair were deemed a better alternative than anything else, at least by the Emperor.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also while they inherit the Webway, they still are the masters of it while guys like Ahriman needed Millenniums to try invade it, or Magnus needed well prepared super spell to bust in. Speaks volumes in itself how advance the Eldar are whether they made it or not.


Giving someone the instruction manual and the tools to build a car is very much different than building a car from scratch. Or even reverse engineering it.

Also keep in mind that in the scheme of things, thousands of years is nothing. The Eldar Empire reigned for 60 (or was it 65?) million years. That's a lot of time to figure things out.

Also look at the resources available. Magnus is mostly independent and Ahriman has his cult of sorcerers. Compared to the combined might of a galactic empire. Apples to oranges.



Warlock in Training said:


> there is infact proof of Psychic Finesse in Codexes and Novels the Emp clearly never shown


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's a fallacy. You can't argue the Emperor lacks finesse because we haven't seen him use it. You must provide proof that he lacks it.

Furthermore, what would you describe as psychic finesse?


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

It's not always easy to provide proof. We are talking about 40k. It's vast. Source materials are stretched over tons of codexes, novels and so on. Seeking proof on every corner for every single sentence is not the way to go. You yourself provided only a vague source, the outcast dead, but you didn't really quote the sentence, now did you? 

It's the same thing he did.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh, LordOftheNight, you ought to know by now that I'm always happy to supply sources if you've been lurking since '12.

Hrm, the conversation is rather lengthy. I dunno if I can post its entirety without breaking some copyright laws (I'm not sure what constitutes breaking copyright, if someone could enlighten me?). I'll try to summon it up.

So Kai (a character in the book) and the Emperor are having a conversation. The Emperor informs Kai that, sometimes, the best you can do is force a stalemate. To push for victory will only lead to defeat (Think of Data in "Peak Performance" for you fellow Star Trek nerds).

The tail end of the conversation goes like this:

Kai: So what happens now?

Emperor: I finish the game.

Kai: [The board game we are currently playing?]

Emperor: No. Our game is done, and I thank you for it.

Kai: Will I see you again?

Emperor Who knows, Kai? If our game has taught me anything, it is that all things are possible.

Kai: But you're going to die.

Emperor:* I know.*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Couple more interesting quotes from the conversation:

Emperor: In any case, the future is the future, and my feelings towards it will not change it one way or the other.

Kai: Truly? Even you can't change it?

Emperor Some things _need_ to happen, Kai. Even the most terrible things you can imagine sometimes need to happen.
~~~~~~~~~~

And then this interesting one:

Emperor: I know some people think me omnipotent, but there is a catch with being all powerful and all knowing. You can't be both at the same time.

(This one is a little bit iffy since it only says that people _think_ he is, but I'd like to think it hints that the Emperor's perception isn't as limited as ours.)

I mean, heck, the Emperor had enough foresight to lock the Void Dragon on Mars (to create a suitable means of industrial might when he needed it) AND foresaw the birth of Slaanesh (hence the timing of the Great Crusade).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
> 
> It's a fallacy. You can't argue the Emperor lacks finesse because we haven't seen him use it. You must provide proof that he lacks it.
> 
> Furthermore, what would you describe as psychic finesse?


So your counter is really pretty much "I do not need proof because its never shown to be less?"

I regularly been part of civilian hearings and military proceedings of court. Thats the kinda argument that will get ya found guilty. Unless you have proof of feats of finesse or versatility that exceed what Eldar lore has put out, then you really have no argument other than your assumption vs the actual known facts.

In the end, I disagree till I see something convincingly factual than rely on his power level as a Psyker means he is a finesse or versatile one. 

I agree to disagree then.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Kreuger said:


> Ah yes, craftworld Eldar. The puritan pilgrims of the warhammer 40k universe.


I'll keep my sadistic, sex boat riding, space elves, thank you very much.:laugh:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> So your counter is really pretty much "I do not need proof because its never shown to be less?"


Wrong. I am saying YOU need proof if you want to make a claim.

That's the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying. I make no claim, either way. You're making a claim that the Emperor has no finesse.

Look, I'll approach the fallacy from the other way.

*I* say the Emperor is the most graceful psyker to grace the universe. Past, present, and future. I would go so far to say that he is the most graceful psyker to ever possibly exist. Literally, there can not be a being, entity, God, or rock with more grace than Him.

Evidence to the contrary? Of course there's none. We have no specific information on the limit of the Emperor's ability. There's no information to the contrary, though, is there?

Now do you get it? A lack of evidence is not sufficient for an argument.

*If you didn't catch it, my argument that the Emperor is the most graceful psyker to ever exist is bunk. Total fail. It doesn't even have a torso to stand on, much less legs.

Just like your argument.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@hailene: where was that Emperor convo from?


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

*cough cough* fuck the emperor.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> @hailene: where was that Emperor convo from?


Outcast Dead


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> Wrong. I am saying YOU need proof if you want to make a claim.
> 
> That's the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying. I make no claim, either way. You're making a claim that the Emperor has no finesse.
> 
> ...


I can semi understand that. At the same time it does not negate the current facts of Eldar showing more versatility, and finesse with their powers over the brute showings, or common showings the Emp has. 

The reason the word Feat is being thrown around by me is that is what we know as proof of showings. Eldar have shown well documented, and better feats with Psy powers. Emp shown the most raw power in feats. 

Simple as that. Feats are the facts. What we know Big E can do vs what we know the Eldar can do.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Now let us go back to what this thread is all about. How eldars view the emperor and not who is a more powerful psyker.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Moriouce said:


> How eldars view the emperor and not who is a more powerful psyker.


But that is the point they are trying to make Moriouce. If the Elder are more powerful psykers then that will ultimately impact their view of the Emporer's crude attempts at Power and Skill. If the Emporer is Equally as powerful, or More, then they will have a drastically different view of the Emporer.

In all honesty my fellow Heretics let us all come to the common conclusion that the Eldar will always have a "Downwards," approach to the Emporer simply because he is a "Monkey;" a Human. They make give him some credit for his Feats of Power and Skill but will always regard him as below them just because he is not Eldar.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> In all honesty my fellow Heretics let us all come to the common conclusion that the Eldar will always have a "Downwards," approach to the Emporer simply because he is a "Monkey;" a Human. They make give him some credit for his Feats of Power and Skill but will always regard him as below them just because he is not Eldar.


Seconed.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Eldar have shown well documented, and better feats with Psy powers.


I asked this question before, but what exactly constitutes a "feat"? 



Warlock in Training said:


> Emp shown the most raw power in feats.


To be fair, we've hardly seen the Emperor use his powers. We've really hardly seen the Emperor.

And that's what I'm getting at. We don't have enough proof to definitively say what his limits are specifically.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> I asked this question before, but what exactly constitutes a "feat"?


A feat is anything that is shown, stated (not including Hyperbole), or can be calculated reliably to determine a fact.



hailene said:


> To be fair, we've hardly seen the Emperor use his powers. We've really hardly seen the Emperor.
> 
> And that's what I'm getting at. We don't have enough proof to definitively say what his limits are specifically.


Here is some feats for the Emperor. 

1) Psy Communication. He can do this solar Systems away. Yet any two bit Psyker Librarian, or Farseer shown the ability to communicate light years away. Emp has far greater distance simply because of his raw power. 

2) Foresight. In a few novels Emp has shown great foresight, however this same foresight has failed time and again to predict events accurately as say Eldrad or other Farseers have. 

3) Emperor shown the ability to Psy dominate, or use Glamour Aura to mind rape beings into loving him, or doing what he says. Yet these same powers have been resisted by beings like Xenos with no effort, as well Humans/SMs with will power. Not impressive power at all overall.

4) Emperor has stoped time once in the Novel _Horus Rising_. Impressive for sure, but again a power that has been done many times by Librarians, and others nowhere near the Emps raw power. 

5) Emperor has shown the ability to sense other beings and such via psy powers. Again not that uber impressive as a Chaos Witch turn Demon in the novel _First Heretic_ was able to send a squad of Word bearers in time to cause the Geller Field malfunctions that allowed the Primarchs to be stolen away. Emp could not detect them as long the WBs followed the Demons instructions. 

6) Emp can rend souls, as can any two bit Psyker or Demon.

7) Emp is credited with the Emperors Wrath warp storm (via Codex statements, could be Hyperbole) that destroyed a large fleet after the Emp was on the Golden Throne. The single most impressive use of raw power for sure, but raw power showing none the less. 

8) Can sail the Imperium in a astral form, as can any other Psyker.

9) With his raw power, able to protect other psykers through Soul Binding, which in turn maims other said Psykers. Eldar on the other hand have Psychic Runes that protect them from Demons in a much more safer, and less Maiming way. 

10) Ability to communicate in any language. 

These are examples I know of the Emps powers, and while impressive to a large degree, they are very much simple Psy powers shown time and again by others. they even show limits to their effectiveness as it stands. Eldar on the other hand have Psy Powers that allow them various abilities, and feats. 
Here is some examples from various Codex's and such. 

Augment - The Warlock acts as a conduit to extend the range of others' psychic powers.

Conceal - The air around the Warlock forms into a type of fog or darkness, making it difficult to see and accurately differentiate between the enemy and the terrain.

Destructor - A huge blast of raw psychic power is unleashed by the Warlock to engulf her enemy.

Embolden - The Warlock projects images of mighty Eldar victories and heroes into her companions' minds, inspiring them to greater feats of heroism.

Enhance - This power has the effect of increasing the already impressive speed and agility of the targeted Eldar warriors.

Executioner - The Warlock creates a monstrous, glowing psychic projection of herself, which engages the enemy in hand-to-hand combat.

Battle Fate - Examining the strands of time, the Farseer choose the course of action that will best ensure success for a friendly unit.

Crystal Seer - Calling upon the assistance of those Seers within the Infinity Circuit, the Farseer is able to enhance her abilities many-fold.

Doom - The Farseer finds the thread of destiny that leads to the enemies' destruction and guides events toward that end.

Eldritch Storm - This power manifests as a vast psychic storm above the target area, firing bolts of psychic energy at the ground in devastating bursts which can even destroy tanks.

Force of Asuryan - The Farseer increasing the fighting abilities of friendly Eldar.

Fortune - The Farseer looks into immediate future for an instant, allowing Eldar warriors a chance to dodge incoming fire which would have killed them.

Guide - This power allows the Farseer to reach into the future, determine where the enemy will be, and use this information to guide friendly Eldars' fire to the maximum effect.

Mind War - The Farseer battles the enemy's mind directly, typically resulting in the foe's brain exploding. It can also render them slow and dumb, or nullify any psychic powers they may have attempted.

Phoenix Spirit - Influencing the Wraithbone within a fallen Eldar's Spirit Stone, the Farseer briefly reanimates them.

Spirit Seer - The Farseer influences the Wraithbone cores of all friendly Wraithguard, invigorating them to heroic actions.

Temporal Weave - This power allows the Farseer to target the enemy and remove them from time itself, essentially freezing them in place.

They even have more Psy powers not listed in the Codex, like their ability to bone Sing, use Psychic power to creat Wraith bone material or how they use Psy powers to preserve the spirits of the dead.

Point is Eldar have TONS of more feats and use of powers to the Emperors own feats. That is a fact. Emperor has greater power, but not understanding, versatility, or finesse as the Eldar. Using the argument of, "Well the Emp has barely any feats," is no excuse to say he is more finesse, it just proves as of right now he is not as finesse or versatile as Eldar Psykers.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Okay, I feel bad. You misunderstood what I said. Although this isn't even the first time this has happened in this conversation alone, so may not so much.

When I asked what constituted a feat, I meant what exactly a feat of finesse is. The kicker with psychic powers is that they don't really exist in real life, so it's a bit hard for us to gauge their difficulty. How much harder is it to light a fire versus telepathically communicate with someone in orbit versus rending someone to pieces with psychic lightning?

I would also like to mention certain psykers finds things easier to do than others. We understand as much from _Legion_ and _The Emperor's Gift_.

So, simply said, it's very difficult to compare psychic abilities without direct narration from characters intimately aware of psychic powers (IE "experts", albeit in universe).



Warlock in Training said:


> Point is Eldar have TONS of more feats and use of powers to the Emperors own feats.


This was another key point that I either failed to hammer home or you didn't catch.

We have gotten a lot more book/novel/audio book time with the Eldar. The Emperor is, for the most part, shrouded in mystery. The bits and blurs we see of him are, generally, either extremely brief, second (third, fourth, fifth...) hand information, or when he's distracted with fighting a daemonic invasion during the Heresy.



Warlock in Training said:


> That is a fact. Emperor has greater power, but not understanding, versatility, or finesse as the Eldar.


We really don't have enough information. It's not out there. Your argument still relies on our ignorance of the Emperor's abilities and where they really come from.

I mean, for all we know, the Emperor is only a modestly powerful psyker with 40 thousand years of tricks, tips, knowledge, and bargaining with Chaos to get to where he is now.

Perhaps ADB's _Master of Mankind_ will shed some light. I don't know.
~~~~~~~~~~~

To repeat again, since sometimes I think my message can get lost when you read it is, that psychic powers are still a real gray area for us readers. We're not 100% sure on how they work.

To really get an answer on how someone compares to someone else, we really need a comparison done by knowledgeable characters in-universe.

I mean, what you're trying to do is admirable enough. You're trying to draw inferences from what we've seen (what little we've seen, really) of the Emperor's abilities and compare it to some of the feats we've seen the Eldar have done. That's great.

But don't forget that's exactly what it is, an inference. 

It's something good to have, but remember it's not definitive.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> _Master of Mankind_


Can't find this novel anywhere , not even on BL ( the mention ). The cover is not out yet?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> I mean, what you're trying to do is admirable enough. You're trying to draw inferences from what we've seen (what little we've seen, really) of the Emperor's abilities and compare it to some of the feats we've seen the Eldar have done. That's great.
> 
> But don't forget that's exactly what it is, an inference.
> 
> It's something good to have, but remember it's not definitive.


Fair enough. Im only basing my opinions on what we seen for sure as of now.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

LordOftheNight said:


> Can't find this novel anywhere , not even on BL ( the mention ). The cover is not out yet?


It's supposed to be one of the novels Aaron Dembski-Bowden works on after _Abaddon: Talon of Horus._. I wouldn't expect to hear anything official for a while yet.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The only explicit reference I can remember reading regarding the Eldar's view of the Emperor comes from Codex: Eye of Terror, where Eldrad refers to him the 'Mon-Keigh's... corpse of a seer'.

Which, to be honest, doesn't give us much information at all!


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