# Theory on the Thunder Warriors and Astartes



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

As TOD tells us, the Thunder Warriors was the original genhanced warriors serving the Emperor and aiding him in the early stages of the unification of terra. But as we find out, they have severe longevity issues which might have been the cause of the creation of the Astartes, as the TWs just weren't capable of the job of conquering the galaxy, causing the Emperor to start the Primarch project.

So.. Erebus claimed that the Emperor made a deal with the chaos gods and reneged on it. Then I am offering the following thought.

1: The Thunder Warriors proved to be woefully inadequate for their planned task of conquering the galaxy as they simply burn out too fast.

2: The Emperor's schedule is in danger of running awry, leaving him stuck on Terra with no warriors capable of fulfilling his visions and threatening to leave him looking like yet another despot offering failed promises. And having humanity remain in the mire of old night.

3: Seeing no other alternatives, the Emperor bargains with the Chaos gods for easier access to the massive amounts of warp power/energy that he needs to infuse into his creations to circumvent the path of failure that 'normal' science promises as the failure of the Thunder Warriors so blatantly demonstrated.

4: But the dark gods, well knowing that the Emperor is going to doublecross them, yet goes along with the game, preparing choice selections of the new legions/primarchs for conversion and corruption as they definitely isnt giving the Emperor the wholly untainted warp power he craves for his creations. Just like how Magnus and the Thousand Sons was manipulated from the very beginnings with the flesh change and Magnus' deal with Tzeentch.

5: Therefrom stands the Emperor's realization that no man can best or master chaos. He did try for the sake of the race and to lift humanity out of the strife of old night and very nearly succeeded, but the deck he was given was stacked against him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Good post. But I think it's been established that at the time of the pact/bargain between the Emperor and the Chaos powers, the latter are portrayed as being naive to the Emperor's true purpose/the workings of the material realm, etc.

So I don't think they planned on turning certain Primarchs from the beginning to their side rather they were under the assumption that the Emperor and his sons were already willing to serve them. 

The scattering was a result of them discovering the Emperor's true purpose.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That is of course if you believe the Emperor made a pact with the gods in the first place.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> That is of course if you believe the Emperor made a pact with the gods in the first place.


Nessecity makes for strange bedfellows. He might not had any other alternatives for creating super warriors to lead his armies, as the once premier Thunder Warriors turned out to be such an embarrasing failure on his part. Better to remove them and try plan B, before the failure of Plan A could make a serious dent in his reputation. But being short of time and having a serious need for more stable warriors, he then takes the dangerous, high risk/high payout option. 

Think of the ego of a thousands of year old immortal, having crafted a master plan that threatens to fall apart at the last moment, wouldnt it then be easy to rationalize taking a more dangerous option to salvage it before it goes awry? But as he eventually learns, it will cost him everything.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> That is of course if you believe the Emperor made a pact with the gods in the first place.


HH:FG

_


'Look around you, Horus,’ said Sejanus. '*Do you think that the science of man alone could have created a being such as a primarch? **If such technology existed, why not create a hundred Horuses, a thousand? *No, a bargain was made that saw you emerge from its forging. I know, for the masters of the warp are as much your father as the Emperor,.’
_






Brother Lucian said:


> Nessecity makes for strange bedfellows. He might not had any other alternatives for creating super warriors to lead his armies, as the once premier Thunder Warriors turned out to be such an embarrasing failure on his part. Better to remove them and try plan B, before the failure of Plan A could make a serious dent in his reputation. But being short of time and having a serious need for more stable warriors, he then takes the dangerous, high risk/high payout option.


A good point. But I'm certain the pact was made solely with the intention of creating the Primarchs, generals he needed because the magnitude of his projects was too much for him to bear and once they were made, a legion of warriors could be bred from them.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

The thunder warriors were dinosaurs, like Dr. Dinosaur who utilized crystals for power, then they ran out. Seriously, the warriors were maybe good enough at the begining but not tough or adaptable for what was intended. Just as easily that Erebus was lying or crazy in what he believed to be truth, not to mention that wasn't Erebus just his image being used. or he made a pact with the other gods


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> HH:FG
> 
> _
> 
> ...


But that Erebus twat was corrupted by Chaos. Lies and deceit his ways are.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

crabpuff said:


> The thunder warriors were dinosaurs, like Dr. Dinosaur who utilized crystals for power, then they ran out. Seriously, the warriors were maybe good enough at the begining but not tough or adaptable for what was intended. Just as easily that Erebus was lying or crazy in what he believed to be truth, not to mention that wasn't Erebus just his image being used. or he made a pact with the other gods


Honestly believing that? Might just as well have been the Emperor spreading those tidbits to make the Thunder Warriors accept their fate of being replaced because they were an inferior model. The Emperor is quite ruthless and will package and repackage anything to suit his needs. I find it could be just negative propanganda to make the progression of Thunderwarrior to Astartes seem natural and make everyone accept it as the ultimate truth of the matter.

Edit: Doubly so when taken in the context of The Outcast Dead mentioning the reign of the psilords called the Cognosticars, which a golden warrior had ended the rule of. Whom had the ability to do TOTAL manipulation of other beings, something far removed from even the powers of the Thousand Sons Atharwa. I find it quite likely that the Emperor employed that power to make Arik Tarannis accept his fate of being replaced, though he still had a survival streak as TOD shows.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Doelago said:


> But that Erebus twat was corrupted by Chaos. Lies and deceit his ways are.


Precisely. There is no concrete evidence at all to say that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. All we have is visions from the gods themselves that they were utilising to corrupt Horus, through Erebus, who as Doelago said, is a liar, as are the gods. It's still one of the things I can't let go with Horus(and Argel Tals for that matter) corruption, they never once seemed to question whether the visions they were being shown were real or not.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Doelago said:


> But that Erebus twat was corrupted by Chaos. Lies and deceit his ways are.





Angel of Blood said:


> Precisely. There is no concrete evidence at all to say that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. All we have is visions from the gods themselves that they were utilising to corrupt Horus, through Erebus, who as Doelago said, is a liar, as are the gods. It's still one of the things I can't let go with Horus(and Argel Tals for that matter) corruption, they never once seemed to question whether the visions they were being shown were real or not.


Put the fact that a daemon uttered those words aside and focus on the logic behind them.

Why didn't the Emperor create a million Primarchs? Why did he settle on just twenty? The more the better no?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Because they were always meant to be his generals. I'm sure the Emperor would have realised having a million demi-gods running about would be too hard for even him to control. That and consider time and resources. Took him long enough to make twenty of them, all of which would have required constant monitoring and checks. Twenty is simply practical. If they are a success, make more. But then the incident happened in which they were swept away and he is specifically said to have 'abandoned' the project. Which heavily implies he intended to continue with it once the first twenty were successful.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor could have killed every single Primarch with just a thought. He made Lorgar and an entire Legion kneel in the dust by just thinking it. Control never was an issue.

Resources the Emperor had plenty of. The only one he did not have in ample amounts was the resource he obtained from the Chaos powers hence why it was such a risky move never to be attempted again.

He abandoned the project because hey if I was him and spent so much time and effort into making them only to see them shot out into space I'd get pretty discouraged too.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If he could kill them all with a thought, then why was the Heresy such a problem? How do you even begin to know he had all the resources he needed? We don't know what he needed to make the Primarchs, one resource could have been very rare, with not enough to build them all.

And just as an aside. Before _False Gods_ everyone was quite happy to accept the Emperor didn't need the gods to make the Primarchs. One vision later and people swear by it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> he is specifically said to have 'abandoned' the project. Which heavily implies he intended to continue with it once the first twenty were successful.


In _Deliverance Lost _we actually see that he didn't abandon the project, he modified it because it would take too long to start from scratch again. He has the realisation that he can use the tecnology to create a watered down version that had a much quicker production time, which led to the SM legions.

TBH this version doesn't sit well with me, because I was always under the impression he created the primarchs to lead the Legions, as opposed to creating the Legions because he lost the primarchs.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> If he could kill them all with a thought, then why was the Heresy such a problem?


You have to be kind of close to them. When the Emperor was close and when he did decide to kill Horus with a thought, that's exactly what happened.



Angel of Blood said:


> How do you even begin to know he had all the resources he needed? We don't know what he needed to make the Primarchs, one resource could have been very rare, with not enough to build them all.


Because he is the Emperor. All of humanity and what it had to offer belonged to him. Maybe you are right and he ran out of chemical X but by bargaining with the Chaos powers, he could have had infinite supplies of chemical X.



Angel of Blood said:


> And just as an aside. Before _False Gods_ everyone was quite happy to accept the Emperor didn't need the gods to make the Primarchs. One vision later and people swear by it.


Well as people demand more specific answers, fluff evolves


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You have to be kind of close to them. When the Emperor was close and when he did decide to kill Horus with a thought, that's exactly what happened.


Which is exactly why having a million Primarchs would be a really shit idea.

Essentially we're going to have to agree to disagree. Your not going to back down that he made a pact with chaos. And i'm not going to just accept a vision as fact.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Well as people demand more specific answers, fluff evolves


But no one was demanding to know how he could have possibly made the Primarchs without outside help or any help for that matter. Everyone was perfectly happy to accept he was just that fucking good.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> In _Deliverance Lost _we actually see that he didn't abandon the project, he modified it because it would take too long to start from scratch again. He has the realisation that he can use the tecnology to create a watered down version that had a much quicker production time, which led to the SM legions.


Indeed, but he still abandoned the idea of making more Primarchs and like you said, altered his plans. Which still again heavily implies he intended to make more Primarchs once the first twenty were a success(or not).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Precisely. There is no concrete evidence at all to say that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. All we have is visions from the gods themselves that they were utilising to corrupt Horus, through Erebus, who as Doelago said, is a liar, as are the gods. It's still one of the things I can't let go with Horus(and Argel Tals for that matter) corruption, they never once seemed to question whether the visions they were being shown were real or not.


More reliable evidence comes from Magnus in _A Thousand Sons_. He states outright that the Emperor made bargains with the Chaos Gods, he would have no reason to lie and states it quite simply in a off-hand manner. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> In _Deliverance Lost _we actually see that he didn't abandon the project, he modified it because it would take too long to start from scratch again. He has the realisation that he can use the tecnology to create a watered down version that had a much quicker production time, which led to the SM legions.
> 
> TBH this version doesn't sit well with me, because I was always under the impression he created the primarchs to lead the Legions, as opposed to creating the Legions because he lost the primarchs.


_Deliverance Lost_ is an anomaly amongst the lore because it suggests the Astartes Legions were not the Emperor's original intention - which they were, regardless of what Thorpe says. The Emperor intended the Primarchs to lead the Legions, not for the Primarchs to lead regiments of the Imperial Army.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> More reliable evidence comes from Magnus in _A Thousand Sons_. He states outright that the Emperor made bargains with the Chaos Gods, he would have no reason to lie and states it quite simply in a off-hand manner.


Though who told Magnus this? Tzeentch? Quite possibly.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Most likely the Emperor. Magnus wasn't texting Tzeentech regularly or something.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yet he certainly had a very lengthy conversation with him at some point when he 'saved' his legion.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

At the time Magnus thought he was just a nice warp entity helping out a guy down on his luck. 

So I don't imagine Tzeentech would be telling him all this bad stuff about the Big E. at that point.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And i'm sure the Emperor would tell Magnus that he made a pact with the four dark and evil gods of Chaos to make him and his brothers. I'll have to wait till i'm home on the weekend to find the direct quotes, but i'm fairly sure Magnus knew it was more than just a 'nice warp entity' helping him. After all it took one of his eyes in the bargain.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Though who told Magnus this? Tzeentch? Quite possibly.


That is possible, but the prose certainly doesn't suggest that:

_"...He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of their destinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp. The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one."_ 

The Emperor shared many secrets with Magnus, it seems to be the case that his bargains were one such secret. Perhaps as a warning for Magnus not to do the same (although Magnus obviously ignored the Emperor's warnings and commands).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I, personally, have no problem with the idea of the Emperor using the Warp to fuel his Primarchs with life essences, but I don't accept the visions and statements provided in the Heresy novels as proof that this was so. The quote referencing Magnus' belief also comes with proof that his own understanding was incomplete: he had in no way seized control of his warriors' destinies, as events during - and after - the Battle of Prospero showed.

At the end of the day, do I see the Ruinous Powers agreeing to a pact in which the Primarchs are to be brought to life? Sure. I think that, even as they saw the Emperor to be a threat, they recognized his Primarchs are the means by which they could in turn undo him. I definitely don't buy the idea that the Emperor somehow cheated them... as if Tzeentch would be caught unawares by such an obvious move.

On the other hand, though, I don't see the Emperor making a formal bargain with the Big Four. Use their energies (or that of the Warp, in general) against their will? Sure. But somehow trusting that even an uneasy, temporary detente between him and Humanity's most central and powerful enemies could be enacted long enough for him to launch a war against them? That's borderline elementary.

(IMHO! :biggrin: )


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _"...The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one."_
> 
> The Emperor shared many secrets with Magnus, it seems to be the case that his bargains were one such secret. Perhaps as a warning for Magnus not to do the same (although Magnus obviously ignored the Emperor's warnings and commands).


From the direct quote it sounds like Magnus was told the Emperor was familiar with the Chaos Gods and had bargained with them long ago... "ages past", rather than, "And did he thus go out to beer with them last weekend, thereily losing the poker game." Respectfully, this gets no closer to a direct bargain between Chaos and the Emperor than Chaos-dream-Erebus saying he did.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I suppose part of the question is can the Warp be used as a power source without the blessings of the Chaos Gods? If so, why couldn't the Emperor tap into the Warp as another power source for the Primarch project without the consent of the Chaos Gods? The Emperor was at the level of tech at the time allowing for the construction of a whole new Human webway, so he was certainly familiar with how to manipulate the Warp for his own purposes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I, personally, have no problem with the idea of the Emperor using the Warp to fuel his Primarchs with life essences, but I don't accept the visions and statements provided in the Heresy novels as proof that this was so. The quote referencing Magnus' belief also comes with proof that his own understanding was incomplete: he had in no way seized control of his warriors' destinies, as events during - and after - the Battle of Prospero showed.
> 
> At the end of the day, do I see the Ruinous Powers agreeing to a pact in which the Primarchs are to be brought to life? Sure. I think that, even as they saw the Emperor to be a threat, they recognized his Primarchs are the means by which they could in turn undo him. I definitely don't buy the idea that the Emperor somehow cheated them... as if Tzeentch would be caught unawares by such an obvious move.
> 
> ...


I also buy into this theory.

There is certainly a trend throughout the Heresy series which portrays the Emperor in a much more fallible light compared to the perception we had of him pre-Heresy series. The idea of the Emperor bargaining with/stealing power from Chaos is a consistent theme throughout the series and is central to this fallible perception that is much more widespread now.

I agree with you though _P_, I have no problem with the idea that the Emperor either bargained with or stole power from the Chaos Gods. In fact I prefer that concept, it adds a lot more intrigue into the character of the Emperor and the wider context in general.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I, personally, have no problem with the idea of the Emperor using the Warp to fuel his Primarchs with life essences, but I don't accept the visions and statements provided in the Heresy novels as proof that this was so. The quote referencing Magnus' belief also comes with proof that his own understanding was incomplete: he had in no way seized control of his warriors' destinies, as events during - and after - the Battle of Prospero showed.
> 
> At the end of the day, do I see the Ruinous Powers agreeing to a pact in which the Primarchs are to be brought to life? Sure. I think that, even as they saw the Emperor to be a threat, they recognized his Primarchs are the means by which they could in turn undo him. I definitely don't buy the idea that the Emperor somehow cheated them... as if Tzeentch would be caught unawares by such an obvious move.
> 
> ...


This I can buy into more. Though i'm still adamant that the visions were false(imo).


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

"Do you think that the science of man alone could have created a being such as a primarch?"

To the omniscient observer like us, that's an absurd statement clearly intended to deceive. Given what we know about the Dark Age of Technology, I indeed do believe that the science of man alone could do that. Besides, we're talking about the Emperor, who definitely qualifies for the old D&D designation "supra-genius".


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

randian said:


> "Do you think that the science of man alone could have created a being such as a primarch?"
> 
> I indeed do believe that the science of man alone could do that. Besides, we're talking about the Emperor, who definitely qualifies for the old D&D designation "supra-genius".


Once more.

*"If such technology existed, why not create a hundred Horuses, a thousand?" *


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> *"If such technology existed, why not create a hundred Horuses, a thousand?" *


Because the Emperor didn't need a hundred Horuses, a thousand. The technology created ultra-powerful warriors, yes, but those warriors were seriously flawed in that they each had a distinct, overbearing personality and were thus very hard to control - even the loyalists, sometimes. Just because you have the technology to do something doesn't mean you should do it. It seems that the more powerful a superhuman becomes, the less stable he is - whether it be through genetic manipulation or psychic evolution. There are exceptions, but they're pretty few and few between. Speaking of Thunder Warriors, wasn't stability one of the main reasons the Emperor switched to Astartes?

Now, I don't want to say that the Emperor *didn't* use Chaos in the creation of the Primarchs, but the "Well, if he had the tech, why didn't he make a bajillion?" reasoning is a bit flawed. If the Emperor used Chaos at all, I'm more inclined to think he stole the power rather than asked nicely.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Because the Emperor didn't need a hundred Horuses, a thousand.


Any army would welcome more generals/leaders any day of the week. He could have created additional Primarchs and removed their urge to be leaders and simply become super-Astartes.



Davidicus 40k said:


> The technology created ultra-powerful warriors, yes, but those warriors were seriously flawed in that they each had a distinct, overbearing personality and were thus very hard to control - even the loyalists, sometimes.


They were not flawed. Their downfall was a mixture of abandonment issues by the Emperor and the tinkering of their views by the Chaos powers. 



Davidicus 40k said:


> Just because you have the technology to do something doesn't mean you should do it. It seems that the more powerful a superhuman becomes, the less stable he is - whether it be through genetic manipulation or psychic evolution.


That's only because writers want to inject a weakness into them to make them less cheesy and to incorporate heroic tragedy syndrome into their stories.



Davidicus 40k said:


> There are exceptions, but they're pretty few and few between. Speaking of Thunder Warriors, wasn't stability one of the main reasons the Emperor switched to Astartes?


We don't know what happened other than the fact that they were not immortal like the Astartes and reputedly psychotic from the start or near the end of their lifespans.



Davidicus 40k said:


> Now, I don't want to say that the Emperor *didn't* use Chaos in the creation of the Primarchs, but the "Well, if he had the tech, why didn't he make a bajillion?" reasoning is a bit flawed.


How so?



Davidicus 40k said:


> If the Emperor used Chaos at all, I'm more inclined to think he stole the power rather than asked nicely.


As Phoebus put it, it's not likely that the Emperor could pull a fast one over Tzeentech. It's more logical to assume he convinced them since Tzeentech can't see the future/all the threads.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Once more.
> 
> *"If such technology existed, why not create a hundred Horuses, a thousand?" *


Why do we think he could make hundred or even thousands? How long did it take to make 20 of them? 

Better question: Why would he want to? Even if he could make a thousand such warriors, how effective would it be to do so? He had to conquer an entire galaxy. 1000 super warriors would simply take far to long to conquer an area that large. Instead we have hundreds of thousands of super soldiers that can be mass produced and conquer the same area much faster at a lower cost. I doubt a thousand primarchs would be nearly as efficient.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Why do we think he could make hundred or even thousands?


Why do we think he couldn't? He is the Emperor of Mankind with unlimited resources at his disposal.



gen.ahab said:


> How long did it take to make 20 of them?


He had plenty of time. It's only after the scattering where he felt he had to rush things because his enemies made their move first and outplayed him.



gen.ahab said:


> Better question: Why would he want to? Even if he could make a thousand such warriors, how effective would it be to do so?


A hundred more nigh-unstoppable generals? Terribly effective. If the Emperor knew about the Heresy ahead of time, I promise you he would not have executed the missing primarchs.



gen.ahab said:


> He had to conquer an entire galaxy. 1000 super warriors would simply take far to long to conquer an area that large. Instead we have hundreds of thousands of super soldiers that can be mass produced and conquer the same area much faster at a lower cost. I doubt a thousand primarchs would be nearly as efficient.


Of course but why do you assume he couldn't be pumping out more primarchs and be cranking out twenty legions of Astartes?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Why do we think he couldn't? He is the Emperor of Mankind with unlimited resources at his disposal.
> 
> There is no such thing at unlimited resources. He had our solar system.
> 
> ...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

"There is no such thing at unlimited resources. He had our solar system. "

Wow.

"Having the time and taking the time are two different things."

I didn't get that.

"Unstoppable? Clearly not. Honestly, I doubt they would be effective at conquering an entire galaxy. Their numbers would be far to small to do that in any reasonable amount of time. "

Nor did I say they would be able to. See below.

"Why would he need to?"

So you're asking why he would need to create 20 + Primarchs and 20 legions?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> "There is no such thing at unlimited resources. He had our solar system. "
> 
> Wow.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is quite a bit, but it isn't unlimited.

Is it the concept you're having an issue with? Help me help you. 

I asked you how effective they would be at the job. You resounded with "terribly effective." Maybe you didn't understand the question.

Indeed I am. When you can get the job done with 20, why would you want more?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> "There is no such thing at unlimited resources. He had our solar system. "
> 
> Wow.
> 
> ...


No not wow. Resources are finite, and thats assuming the resources he needed could be found on all the planets in the Sol system anyway. As i've pointed out before, one of the resources required to produce the Primarchs could have been rare. Too say he has unlimited resources is just naive.

Why not make a thousands Horus'? Because then as I said before. He would then have thousands of demi-gods running about the galaxy, look how well twenty turned out. The Emperor is wise enough to know that a thousand (or a million by your original quote) demi-gods would be very unwise and leave too much chance for things to go wrong.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@aob: damn it you had to post before I posted eh? Too tired to reply, I shall appoint whoever posts after me as my spokesman excluding emperorguard500.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe you could think of the Primarch project like this; the 20 Primarchs were the prototypes, intially taking alot of time to create if succesful, the process could be refined and speed up, so thinking this the emperor could have potentially created an army of Primarchs just as fast as astartes but of the course the Chaos gods interviend before this could potentially happen. 

Same thing happened with the astartes anyway, didnt it, the process intially was slow then it was refined and the process speed up hence the massive amounts fighting during the heresy.

Just an idea tho, but as it is there were 20 created and it stayed like that, i think that a measure of the powers of chaos was used, how it was aquired is a different matter whether it was given or stolen it doesnt matter at the end of the day, some sort of power of chaos was used.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

I think the question 'why werent 1000+ Primarchs made' is not the correct one to ask as it seems to assume the more Primarchs that existed, the better off the Imperium would be. 

In short, I think the Emperor made the decision to create enough Primarchs to conquer the galaxy, but not too many that he couldnt control - either during the galaxy conquering rampage, or THEREAFTER.

We have the interesting discussion here and there throughout the HH novels of what would have happened to the Primarchs after the Galaxy was conquered. Imagine 1000 Horus' with nothing left for their ambition to conquer? Imagine 1000 bored Angrons without anything to butcher?

No no, I think the Emperor got the number right. 
And I dont think its a stretch of the imagination to assert the Primarchs took alot of resources to make, scientific or Warp based - perhaps 1000+ Primarch COULDNT have been made. And of course there was time - there was an assertion that the Emperor had all the time in the world to make 1000+ Primarchs. But did he really? The Warp storms had subsided hadnt they, but for how long, did the Emperor know? He had just reunited Earth, Im thinking he was striking while the iron was hot and may have only had time to create 20 Primarchs. Think about it - if it took upwards of a generation of scientists to create 20 Primarchs (im making this up, but lets assume it took a long time), would he really want to invest all that time to make as many Primarchs as he could and risk the vagueries and vissicitudes of human existence (with all its politics and wars)?
I wouldnt - get enough Primarchs and conquer the galaxy - if one waited a few generations of human lives, the Earth could be a different place.

And re Chaos god bargaining, I am a believer that some amount of Warp power was invested to create the Primarchs (no evidence, just intuition given their power and variable psyk abilities and resistance) - whether the Big E stole or bargained for it I leave that question to more learned contributors. Would simply 'tapping into' the Warp without disturbing/ bargaining with the Chaos Gods be likely? Probably not given the Primarchs amazing power, and I have to say I prefer a storyline where the Big E had to bargain/steal the power - but that my friends is all speculation and loose ends. Agreeing to disagree on the Emperor/Chaos gods interaction pre-Primarchs is the best course of action at this stage.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Put the fact that a daemon uttered those words aside and focus on the logic behind them.
> 
> Why didn't the Emperor create a million Primarchs? Why did he settle on just twenty? The more the better no?


Familiar with the term Too many chiefs and not enough indians?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It does not apply to a galaxy spanning empire with aliens and supernatural monsters.

More super-soldier generals = better 100% of the time.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It does not apply to a galaxy spanning empire with aliens and supernatural monsters.
> 
> More super-soldier generals = better 100% of the time.


Certainly, but also for a dull story.

Edit Ever read Lord of the rings and wonder why Gandalf didn't just ride on the back of an eagle and drop the ring into the volcano? lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cheeto said:


> Edit Ever read Lord of the rings and wonder why Gandalf didn't just ride on the back of an eagle and drop the ring into the volcano? lol


Coincidently, I was reading an article on _the Hobbit_ movie a few days back and that question popped up amongst the comments, and it was soundly answered as to why it would have been implausable by a few Tolkien buffs. I'll try and find it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure the eye of sauron would have seen it in the air and shot it down or send some nazgul riders whereas going at it from the ground removed both threats.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok, so if the Emperor did make a pact with the chaos gods to create the space marines then they would have surely been tainted from the very start. Did the chaos gods engineer them so they would slowly fall to chaos?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It does not apply to a galaxy spanning empire with aliens and supernatural monsters.
> 
> More super-soldier generals = better 100% of the time.


What a totally absurd statement. Twenty fucked the galaxy up pretty nicely and you think more would be better (all the time I might add)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Twenty were pawns of monstrous entities that fucked up the galaxy. They were doing just fine before the Heresy erupted.

So yes, more would be better without question.

Your _argument _is flawed because you insinuate that all the bad that's happened in the galaxy is because of the Primarchs and yet none of the events leading up to the Heresy could have happened without them IE. no Imperium/etc.

More would allow the Emperor not having to waste his time on projects that a helping hand could take care of. More would equal the Golden Throne potentially having a replacement other than Magnus who was always destined to fall. More would.. etc.

I think if the Emperor wasn't burdened with the Golden Throne when the Heresy happened, he would have fucked some Chaos up.

*sharpens blade for CoTe's imminent arrival*


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

The big E only made as many Primarch's as he could or should have needed. The timeframe involved is quite incredible. These guys are not a microwave pizza that you throw in the incubator and they pop out ready to go 2 minutes later.

The Emp. was dealing with finite resources of where he was. You also have to think that he had a slew of other things going on at the same time. We are only being given a quick recap of what has transpired. Fairly similar to this:

Super Bowl VII

Miami Dolphins: 14
Washington Redskins: 7

Now you know that Miami was victorious for the Super bowl for that year. What you are unaware of is just how FUCKING EPIC this was. This has changed American football so much that it is unreal. The '72 Miami team, to this day I might add, is the only team that has gone undefeated the whole season from start to finish. A truly perfect season. The guys that were on that team still watch any team play that has not lost a game each year.

This is what you are not seeing. You are unaware of all the facts, and will never be aware of all the facts if GW has it their way. It is what it is.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

OIIIIIIO said:


> This is what you are not seeing. You are unaware of all the facts, and will never be aware of all the facts if GW has it their way. It is what it is.


---



OIIIIIIO said:


> Ignorant of Islamic faith ... for the most part, yes I am.





OIIIIIIO said:


> Reason? When you have a religion that makes anyone (specifically women) able to be outright murdered because she has "dishonored" the family name





OIIIIIIO said:


> I too have to say fuck them.





OIIIIIIO said:


> I really don't give a damn what way you try to justify it


---

PS. Football > American Football (why it's called that eludes me) < Rugby


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Good post. But I think it's been established that at the time of the pact/bargain between the Emperor and the Chaos powers, the latter are portrayed as being naive to the Emperor's true purpose/the workings of the material realm, etc.
> 
> So I don't think they planned on turning certain Primarchs from the beginning to their side rather they were under the assumption that the Emperor and his sons were already willing to serve them.
> 
> The scattering was a result of them discovering the Emperor's true purpose.


Proof?



Malus Darkblade said:


> Put the fact that a daemon uttered those words aside and focus on the logic behind them.
> 
> Why didn't the Emperor create a million Primarchs? Why did he settle on just twenty? The more the better no?


No



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Emperor could have killed every single Primarch with just a thought. He made Lorgar and an entire Legion kneel in the dust by just thinking it. Control never was an issue.
> 
> Indeed it was.
> 
> ...


I too can multi quote .... It is called American football because we call the other game soccer.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Did you see the game the other day? Giants 24-2'd the Falcons. Talk about about a letdown eh?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Twenty were pawns of monstrous entities that fucked up the galaxy. They were doing just fine before the Heresy erupted.
> 
> So yes, more would be better without question.
> 
> ...


If my argument is flawed then yours certainly is aswell. How do you know Chaos wouldn't have corrupted half of them aswell? They would have all been even more isolated from the Emperor and by sheer dint of numbers not as close to him as the twenty were(well some of them). Without the bond being as close, the chance of corruption increases. It becomes even harder to track their movements, motivations and personal goals, they could easily get away with more suspect acts and get away with it, unlike the World Eaters(who still did get away with it, and thats when the Emperor and Malcador only had eighteen legions to watch).

Magnus was destined to fall as you pointed out. How many more of a thousand would similarly be destined to fall. 

To even begin to say more is better 'Without question' is once again absurd. Once again your argument is just as flawed as you perceive mine to be.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> How do you know Chaos wouldn't have corrupted half of them aswell?


A better question is why the Chaos powers didn't convert all of the Primarchs assuming they tried to with the loyalists (most likely). Whatever it is that kept them loyal, it could manifest itself with additional Primarchs. The same argument could be said for them turning against the Emperor however.



Angel of Blood said:


> They would have all been even more isolated from the Emperor and by sheer dint of numbers not as close to him as the twenty were(well some of them).
> Without the bond being as close, the chance of corruption increases. It becomes even harder to track their movements, motivations and personal goals, they could easily get away with more suspect acts and get away with it, unlike the World Eaters(who still did get away with it, and thats when the Emperor and Malcador only had eighteen legions to watch).


Too many variables but ultimately, the more of them, the more quickly the Emperor's work could be completed, thus allowing him to personally check in on his sons.



Angel of Blood said:


> Magnus was destined to fall as you pointed out. How many more of a thousand would similarly be destined to fall.


But how many more could similarly be destined to remain loyal?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But see that's the point I'm getting at, there are far too many assumptions, if's and but's to unequivocally say that more would be better.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> HH:FG
> 
> _
> 
> ...


What was said to Horus was nothing more than the Ruinous Powers trying to bend him to their ways/beliefs. Nothing more. I see no truth in it at all.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

this whole the more the better is just stupid. More of anything is bad. Even if you drink too much water you die. If you had a crap load of primarchs running around you deny yourself what the SM's really provide. 
1)Lets face it if he wanted to sit there and keep making them he would need a crap load of time. 
2)SM's are a self reproducing unit. They can manage their own strengths and draw more recruits from the human populace. Clearly having many make many is easier then one making tons (When have you seen a primarch so easily created.
3)If you make Soldiers and there is only one possible leader for them you pretty much screw youself. The Primarchs are all super human beings that are equals. So Hey guys I say bob is in charge now... we see how well that worked out. So if you make a chain of command you're much better off. I'd rather send a general to fight a battle so I can view the big pic. If you're the only person in the command chair you miss a lot


4)Falcons were an epic fail I can't believe they did so terribly and Tim Tebow needs to go away or become a running back. (and I believe is American Football because at the time kick the shit of the other guy ball was taken by rugby and the whole well its a ball that is hit with a foot was taken by futbol so we said screw it that's soccer this is football. )


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Emperors Mercy said:


> 4)Falcons were an epic fail I can't believe they did so terribly and Tim Tebow needs to go away or become a running back. (and I believe is American Football because at the time kick the shit of the other guy ball was taken by rugby and the whole well its a ball that is hit with a foot was taken by futbol so we said screw it that's soccer this is football. )


Falcons were absolutely an epic fail, but runningbacks don't throw for 316 yards against one of the best defenses in the league. No, I don't care if the Steelers had injuries, or if Ike Taylor had an off night, or whatever. Good teams overcome such issues, especially in the playoffs, and if they can't, they deserve to lose. It's named "football" because it meets the code requirements of what can be classified as "football." So do soccer and rugby.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

+++Topic drift spotted, diverting to intercept. Cleanse and Burn!+++

The Emperor have always been portrayed as a proponent of pure science and logic, despite his own reality bending powers. The bastion of the materium and the primary instigator of the imperial truth for a secular imperium.

Now consider this train of thought. Terra in the final moments of the Age of Strife was ruled over by techno barbarian warlords, of which the Emperor was one, holding one the most pure kernels of Dark Age of Technology secrets due to his Immortality, wholly and utterly certain that He could create better and more powerful warriors to serve him.

Now imagine what happens when even His' understanding of science is proven wanting or even lacking? Maybe from a lack of sufficient pure resources or even the DAOT knowledge turning out to be proven wanting, even when remembered by one as ancient as the Emperor. Maybe the span of ages playing tricks on even him? What happened there we will never know.

But when his 'crowning creation', the Thunder Warriors is proven wanting by not being able to perform up to task for the great work he had planned for them. Then what does an immortal with a monstrous ego do? Sure he had denied the warp all his life, but with the future of humanity at stake, it would become so much easier to rationalize drawing upon the warp for a new generation of superhuman warriors to bypass the flaws that kept plaguing him in the pure science created Thunder Warriors. The very infusion of warp energy in the beings of space marines that gave them their extended lifespan and overcomming the burnout problem, would utterly render them vulnerable to chaos. A fact that the dark gods gleefully kept from the one making a faustian bargain with them.

Basically: Thunder Warriors feeds upon themselves when the power grafted into their bodies is spent, causing their bodies to decay. Whereas Astartes, implanted with warp infused organs, passed down from their Primarch sire, does not have that problem. But the very 'warp essence' in their bodies is rendering them much more vulnerable to the deprecations of chaos. And appearently the Emperor solved that problem with the Grey Knights for the ultimate edition of enhanced warriors, but by then it was far too late.

Edit: I believe the Emperor was in danger of running out of time for the plans he had set, the dysfunctionality of the Thunder Warriors seeing to that. So the golden opportunity to create much more efficient Astartes proved too tempting to pass up and the Thunder Warriors was quietly disposed off, having lost their usefulness.

Edit 2: Imagine a brooding Emperor sitting alone in his throne room, the rasping voice of Tzeentch filling his ears, promising to show the Emperor how to create warp infused warriors, just like the ones his legions had faced when uniting terra, but married with genetech to become the perfect warrior. Running out of time, it was seeming like an increasingly appealing path, and inwardly Tzeenctch grinned, he knew the Emperor would try to back out of the deal, thinking he could control all the twisting strands of fate. But it was in this shadow point that his fate was sealed once the deal was accepted, and where he lost his ability to clearly see the future thanks to the shadow point blotting out everything. The Emperor would strut and preen, but the great power of the Imperium to come would be built upon a crumbling foundation, that the Architect of Fate had insured.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor did not need to be convinced to utilize the warp to create the Primarchs as you imagined Tzeentech whispering into his ear. 

If anything the Chaos powers were doing their own thing, oblivious to a realm full of weak psychic pulses they had no reason to pay attention to until the Emperor came. 

And a being as powerful as the Emperor could not be ignored even by them. So they listened to what he had to say - or _promised _ - and were convinced.

Now my own personal theory that is unrelated to the topic. 

Perhaps it was the Emperor's own dream that inadvertently caused the Chaos powers to divert so much of their attention to a world they never really noticed before.

However the only thing that goes against my theory of the Chaos powers being naive to the material realm is the fact that several humans born before the Emperor were elevated to Daemon princes. 

Unless of course the Emperor was born before the first Daemon prince, kept a low profile and obtained the power he needed from them but only utilized it after the Age of Strife. To them, perhaps the time between their pact and the scattering of the Primarchs happened in the blink of an eye given how powerful they are and how time and the warp conflict.


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