# Argel Tal vs. Loken



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I do not mean that in a sense of fighting.

I think we can all agree that they are both noble char, but one fell and the other did not. Would Loken have acted any different had he been in Argel Tal's shoes, or vice versa? When was the point of no return?


I think with Argel Tal it was when he allowed a Custodian to die and the Chaos ritual to go on. With Loken I think it was easier. Loken never made a compromise. He knew right from wrong (which is why he led the spear tip of I3).

My post is about Argel Tal and Loken, but honestly the best char as far as conviction goes is Saul Tarvitz. He had no melodrama as far as "what is the right thing to do?". Fuck my Legion, fuck my Primarch - I am doing the right thing!


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Vitarus said:


> Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.


Some lies are worth believing in. Do you honestly believe that "all men are created equal?", because the implication of that means you also believe that we are all Einstiens and Micheal Jordans. For the vast Majority of people we will never be the smartest person or the best athlete, but the premise of "all men are created equal" is something to believe in and aspire to.

If you want to rip it all down to Chaos and lies, you make a valid point. The Emp did lie. But I would rather fight my ass off to preserve the lie than face the 'truth' of chaos. Chaos is Damnation no matter how you cut it.


----------



## kujwa (Dec 19, 2012)

What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.





kujwa said:


> What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?


Whilst it's becoming more apparent that Emperor likely did use the warp to create the Primarchs, don't go taking what the chaos gods said to Horus and Argel Tal about him using their power as gospel. Never forget the gods are deceitful, insidious and will use any means to corrupt someone. One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.

Personally I don't believe Loken would have fallen in his place. They have vastly different ideologies and beliefs. Lokens faith and loyalty to the Emperor along with his steadfast views on what is right or wrong took him to the point where he would allow Horus to die than allow him to be saved by tainted means. I don't believe Loken would have allowed Vendethas death for a moment, it's just utterly against his character.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Zooey72 said:


> Some lies are worth believing in. Do you honestly believe that "all men are created equal?", because the implication of that means you also believe that we are all Einstiens and Micheal Jordans. For the vast Majority of people we will never be the smartest person or the best athlete, but the premise of "all men are created equal" is something to believe in and aspire to.


We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.



Zooey72 said:


> If you want to rip it all down to Chaos and lies, you make a valid point. The Emp did lie. But I would rather fight my ass off to preserve the lie than face the 'truth' of chaos. Chaos is Damnation no matter how you cut it.


Genocide on the scale that the Emperor committed (How many planets that had been settled by humans before Old Night and how many Xenos species?) is Damnation. If you blackmail a good man, forcing him to let his throat be cut so that his blood can give a bullet the power to kill a demon, then what are you fighting for? What are you preserving? 





kujwa said:


> What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?


Yeah, it's in The First Heretic.




Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst it's becoming more apparent that Emperor likely did use the warp to create the Primarchs, don't go taking what the chaos gods said to Horus and Argel Tal about him using their power as gospel. Never forget the gods are deceitful, insidious and will use any means to corrupt someone. One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.


I thought of that as I was reading it. The thing is, afaik, it's never been contradicted. Not by anyone, anywhere. No hint of a contradiction. The Word Bearers have been yelling that the Emperor lied to everyone, and nobody said, "No he didn't." Why not? There's been a lot of time and a lot of Primarchs and powerful psykers, but nobody thinks that lie Chaos told needs to be exposed.


----------



## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

I think a lot of it comes down to the heightened loyalty the WBs have to their Primarch. Ultimately Argel Tal went with Lorgar because his devotion to him outweighed his discomfort at the course he was taking. Had Vendatha not shot at Lorgar it might have been different, but Argel Tal's fate was sealed at that moment.

Whereas Loken was able to look at Horus and those around him objectively and realise that shit was fucked up.

Loken would win the fight too...


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> I thought of that as I was reading it. The thing is, afaik, it's never been contradicted. Not by anyone, anywhere. No hint of a contradiction. The Word Bearers have been yelling that the Emperor lied to everyone, and nobody said, "No he didn't." Why not? There's been a lot of time and a lot of Primarchs and powerful psykers, but nobody thinks that lie Chaos told needs to be exposed.


But they haven't. Not one person has accused the Emperor himself, or even mentioned it to others for that matter. The traitors all go off on one about the Emperor lying about the gods, which he did, but the loyalists all recognise he did it to try and protect them. Although some of them still don't believe the gods exist, hell Magnus himself barely believe it, as of [i[Betrayer[/i] he still refuses to acknowledge the existence of gods or daemons, they are still just powerful warp entities to him. So your not really correct on that one. But not once has his supposed deal with the gods been mentioned to anyone outside of the visions in which they took place.

And none of what you said still changes the fact that they never once questioned the authenticity of the visions.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.


Argel Tal did accept that Ingethel may have lied, but realised that it didn't matter:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 'But what if were being lied to?'
> 
> It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.
> 
> ...


Also, who said Horus didn't question his own Chaos-induced vision?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still feel more should focus should have been given to the authenticity of the visions, it all just seemed a little too easy. My main gripe is people stating the visions as fact, in particular that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. Sure it might have happened(though despite how ruthless we know the Emperor to be, I'm still inclined to believe it's false), but the visions are by no means prood.


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Daemons speak of half truths and possible futures wrapped in lies and deceit. It's best to take what they say with a grain of salt.


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> But they haven't. Not one person has accused the Emperor himself, or even mentioned it to others for that matter. The traitors all go off on one about the Emperor lying about the gods, which he did, but the loyalists all recognise he did it to try and protect them. Although some of them still don't believe the gods exist, hell Magnus himself barely believe it, as of [i[Betrayer[/i] he still refuses to acknowledge the existence of gods or daemons, they are still just powerful warp entities to him. So your not really correct on that one. But not once has his supposed deal with the gods been mentioned to anyone outside of the visions in which they took place.
> 
> And none of what you said still changes the fact that they never once questioned the authenticity of the visions.


well that means that there aren't the chaos gods as they are all very powerful warp entities as that is what slanesh is from how 'it' was formed by the mass death of the eldar.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm willing to throw away the visions entirely. The Emperor has been lying about the truth of the nature of reality. I can't imagine how he hopes to keep such a secret. Insane.

Combine that with the Emperor killing more individual and planets full of humans and xenos than can be imagined. Chaos hasn't done worse.

And the Word Bearers did their duty, even when they didn't want to. When it wasn't necessary. When the planet was extremely close to the Imperial truth, or wanted to be left alone. They committed these genocides, despite thinking it was wrong, because they believed in the Emperor.

Then they found that the Emperor was lying all along. The horrors of Chaos are not worse than the horrors of the Imperium. By walking the path of the beings of the warp, the Word Bearers would not be committing greater atrocities than they had been for a long time, and they would be learning more about the actual state of existence. The "good fight" would not be going back to wiping out planets that did not agree with the exact word of the Emperor.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> I'm willing to throw away the visions entirely. The Emperor has been lying about the truth of the nature of reality. I can't imagine how he hopes to keep such a secret. Insane.
> 
> Combine that with the Emperor killing more individual and planets full of humans and xenos than can be imagined. Chaos hasn't done worse.
> 
> ...


What is this based on? The innocent blood the Emperor has shed is a drop of water in the ocean shed by Chaos. If anything the Emperor wanted more people in his empire to proceed with his various plans. 

Upon encountering lost colonies who did not want to embrace the Imperial truth, then yes they were annihilated but only because the Emperor needed to unify all of humanity to fight against Chaos. 

Leave them alone and eventually Chaos will manage to infect them or a xenos race might enslave them.

Better to join a human empire unwillingly than be enslaved by a xenos race and be forced to fight against your birth species. 

Also pre-Heresy, the Imperium wasn't all that bad.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> The horrors of Chaos are not worse than the horrors of the Imperium.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I still feel more should focus should have been given to the authenticity of the visions, it all just seemed a little too easy.


Perhaps, though in both cases (Horus and Argel Tal) neither vision was the reason as for why they betrayed the Emperor, so I dont think its a big deal. It's as Erebus says in _Betrayer_: “The galaxy burns from his ambition, not because I arranged to have him cut by an envenomed blade.” The same applies to the vision(s) and to Argel Tal; he turned because he had discovered the truth not because he learnt the Emperor may or may not have made bargains with Chaos.



Angel of Blood said:


> My main gripe is people stating the visions as fact, in particular that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. Sure it might have happened(though despite how ruthless we know the Emperor to be, I'm still inclined to believe it's false), but the visions are by no means prood.


Though in that particular case, the visions arn't the only evidence we have. We also have Magnus telling us that he was aware the Emperor had made bargains and pacts with the warp.


----------



## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Though in that particular case, the visions arn't the only evidence we have. We also have Magnus telling us that he was aware the Emperor had made bargains and pacts with the warp.


Not exactly a reliable source, Magnus was beyond corrupt and he wasn't even aware of it. I am sure some greater daemon or Tzeentch 'shared' that with him just to lure him in.

He was just speaking a 'daemon's truth' of the situation.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What is this based on? The innocent blood the Emperor has shed is a drop of water in the ocean shed by Chaos. If anything the Emperor wanted more people in his empire to proceed with his various plans.
> 
> Upon encountering lost colonies who did not want to embrace the Imperial truth, then yes they were annihilated but only because the Emperor needed to unify all of humanity to fight against Chaos.
> 
> ...


It's all a matter of whether or not you think the end justifies the means. I don't. I think the Emperor should have found a way of fighting Chaos that did not include genocide many thousands of times over. There is no moral high-ground in that. 

In addition, the Emperor's means weren't sufficient anyway. It didn't work. He wasn't prepared, or he misunderstood something, or underestimated Chaos, or something. If the end is not achieved, the means are not justified.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

soonergold said:


> Not exactly a reliable source, Magnus was beyond corrupt and he wasn't even aware of it. I am sure some greater daemon or Tzeentch 'shared' that with him just to lure him in.
> 
> He was just speaking a 'daemon's truth' of the situation.


The Emperor most likely told Magnus this, not Tzeentech. To serve as a warning perhaps not to repeat his mistake and because the Emperor alone cannot be corrupted by their touch.



Vitarus said:


> It's all a matter of whether or not you think the end justifies the means. I don't. I think the Emperor should have found a way of fighting Chaos that did not include genocide many thousands of times over. There is no moral high-ground in that.
> 
> In addition, the Emperor's means weren't sufficient anyway. It didn't work. He wasn't prepared, or he misunderstood something, or underestimated Chaos, or something. If the end is not achieved, the means are not justified.


WH40k is a grim dark dystopian universe. Morality in the grand scheme of things is put aside for the survival of the human race in its entirety.

It could be argued that the Emperor is the most benevolent figure in the entire WH40k universe. Potentially the most potent psyker ever seen, he could easily have stayed in the shadows and lived his life in peace or created his own world on some distant planet. 

Post-heresy, he could easily just stop powering the Golden Throne and let his race perish to the whims of Chaos. But instead he endures what is described as the most painful torture day in and day out for ten thousand years straight. 

The Emperor knew exactly what he was doing. He alone conquered more of the galaxy than the entire human race at the zenith of their technological power. His plan for humanity was flawless except for the part where his sons turned against him. 

Perhaps if he wasn't so burdened, he could of interacted with his sons more often and made sure they stayed pure. But when mankind's future rests on your shoulder, it's not that easy. 

For one human being, he did exceedingly well against the Chaos pantheon and infinite kinds of hostile xenos races.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Yes, "It could be argued". But the opposite can also be argued. It's a question of values. Mine do not agree with what you describe. Putting aside morality is, indeed, the issue. Without morality, humanity becomes capable of committing the atrocities we see in this mythos. Without morality, humanity is no longer something worth saving. Nobody would be arguing with me if we were talking about a story where some alien race was wiping out every being they came across, and has now discovered Earth. We would call them evil, and we would cheer when their mothership was blown up. We would say justice had been done; that they had no right to survive in that manner, and the universe is a better place for their death. Surviving at the expense and death of others is not evil when aliens do it, but acceptable when we do it.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yet you seem to think chaos isn't as bad as the Imperium, something I can't quite believe your saying. Even if you go on your basis that the Imperium is evil, then it's a case of the lesser of two evils. And Chaos is not the lesser evil, not even close.


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Vitarus said:


> Yes, "It could be argued". But the opposite can also be argued. It's a question of values. Mine do not agree with what you describe. Putting aside morality is, indeed, the issue. Without morality, humanity becomes capable of committing the atrocities we see in this mythos. Without morality, humanity is no longer something worth saving. Nobody would be arguing with me if we were talking about a story where some alien race was wiping out every being they came across, and has now discovered Earth. We would call them evil, and we would cheer when their mothership was blown up. We would say justice had been done; that they had no right to survive in that manner, and the universe is a better place for their death. Surviving at the expense and death of others is not evil when aliens do it, but acceptable when we do it.


yes but those aliens would have destroyed your species so they are evil, the imperium isn't trying to kill itself if it wanted to do that then the emperor could just get out of the golden throne, they do not commit such atrocities because they can like chaos does they generally do it to stop chaos or xenos. so they may not be that moral but that is replaced by their belief in humanity and its survival so in the grand scheme of things they are doing a little bad for a lot of good


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Likewise, I can't believe nobody thinks there's anything bad about the Imperium or the Emperor's policies. Okay, one now. Thank you kavyanshrike, for suggesting that it may not be moral. (But the Emperor destroyed those aliens' species, just as those aliens would have destroyed my species. It's exactly the same thing. Deciding someone has the right to live and someone doesn't is wrong. That doesn't change just because we're talking about aliens. It's all sentient beings. If a sentient being isn't trying to harm me, it's wrong for me to kill them.) The numbers of planets they eradicated during the Great Crusade is staggering. The numbers of individuals is beyond imagination. _And it wasn't an accident._ It's not like things escalated too far in so many thousands of cases, and they were trying to figure out how to prevent such horrific mishaps in the future. Any planet that didn't and wouldn't do and believe _precisely_ what the Emperor wanted was wiped out. That policy was called Good. And it was going to continue until there were no beings left in the galaxy who didn't do and believe precisely what the Emperor wanted. 

Nobody has a problem with that???

So here's the Word Bearers. They wiped out planets they badly wanted to let live, and they were humiliated by the Emperor, in the form of Roboute, for trying to find a better way. And yes, their way was better. Even if the end _does_ justify the means, the attempt to wipe out all views but the Imperial Truth to make a strong, united humanity failed in 30K. And it continues to fail in 40K. The Truth has changed, but the methods have not. They simply don't work. Even if it was possible to wipe out all views but one, it would be impossible to stop other views from springing up again. The Emperor was a fool to not know these things.

Suddenly, they are shown things that they were told did not exist. Not knowing Chaos existed, they didn't know the depths of horror Chaos delighted in inflicting on even themselves. All they knew was that the picture of the nature of reality the Emperor had given them was a lie. They chose to pursue the truth. I cannot fault them for that. They knew there was some nasty stuff in Chaos. The first stuff they saw was sacrifices and pain. But genocide was their way of life. It's not like they saw things right away that made all they'd done pale in comparison. They threw away the evil they'd been doing for a new evil. But they knew the old evil was a lie, and the new evil was the truth. Or at least a greater slice of the truth.

Yes, things went too far, imo. Chaos DOES do worse things. At least genocide puts uncounted quadrillions of beings out of their misery. Chaos would keep them in their misery forever. Once the Word Bearers saw a clearer picture, they should have chosen another path. That's why the Soul Drinkers are the real heroes to me. (I've only read the Omnibus. I have no idea if they become villains in what will be the second Omnibus.) They saw that the Imperium was corrupt, but they sure didn't turn to Chaos.


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Vitarus said:


> So here's the Word Bearers. They wiped out planets they badly wanted to let live, and they were humiliated by the Emperor, in the form of Roboute, for trying to find a better way. And yes, their way was better. Even if the end does justify the means, the attempt to wipe out all views but the Imperial Truth to make a strong, united humanity failed in 30K. And it continues to fail in 40K. The Truth has changed, but the methods have not. They simply don't work. Even if it was possible to wipe out all views but one, it would be impossible to stop other views from springing up again. The Emperor was a fool to not know these things.


it was impossible to make an strong united humanity in 30K and 40K because of chaos, chaos caused the horus heresy probably one of the worst times in humanities history where they betrayed there brothers abd they still fail to make a strong united humanity in 40k because of chaos. chaos is within everyone that is the reason why humanity cant win


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> Likewise, I can't believe nobody thinks there's anything bad about the Imperium or the Emperor's policies. Okay, one now. Thank you kavyanshrike, for suggesting that it may not be moral. (But the Emperor destroyed those aliens' species, just as those aliens would have destroyed my species. It's exactly the same thing. Deciding someone has the right to live and someone doesn't is wrong. That doesn't change just because we're talking about aliens. It's all sentient beings. If a sentient being isn't trying to harm me, it's wrong for me to kill them.) .


Humans and various alien species enjoyed a truce and sometimes even traded between each other during the Dark Age of Technology. 

When the Age of Strife happened and humanity was at its weakest, some of those 'peaceful' aliens decided to strike at humanity.

That's when humanity and the Emperor developed a deep-seated hatred for aliens.

Also, given how hostile the universe is in the WH40k mythos, there are pretty much 0 peaceful aliens.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

kavyanshrike said:


> it was impossible to make an strong united humanity in 30K and 40K because of chaos, chaos caused the horus heresy probably one of the worst times in humanities history where they betrayed there brothers abd they still fail to make a strong united humanity in 40k because of chaos. chaos is within everyone that is the reason why humanity cant win


That's true. And I think the Emperor should have known that. I know that even in our rl world, where we don't have the Dark Gods. I don't think we should try to accomplish an impossible goal with Hitler's methods of eradicating all who are not exactly the way you think they should be. Another method should have been looked for. Better yet, a goal that was not known to be impossible - or certainly should have been known to be impossible - should have been looked for.


----------



## thrice00 (Jan 16, 2012)

Personally, I think you're too white knigt(without insulting you). 

One of you earlier post: We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.

That is real good on paper but did you go to Las Vegas? There is so MUCH beggars and homeless everyfuckingwhere it's unbelievable. Humanity always have put a value to human life. Even today we let Millions upon Millions dies because we don't want to give them our money to help them.
So yes some people are worth less than others, It's not right but still true nonetheless.

I think CHina is a good exemple. Most people say they are in the right of the *left–right political spectrum. When you take some steps back you realize that they manage a smaller contry with 4 times more people than USA with a how mcuh time better economy,crime rates,and else. They do what need to be done to make their country run. China run by USA type of Governement and the same kind of politicians would be bankrupt in no time. Do we have less poor people here.... i'm not sure at all. *

*The Emperor and Humanity face a GALAXY at wars. If he would not be so ruthless humanity would be lost. You still in your right to not like is methods, But without them there would maybe be no humanity left or in the grip of chaos killing each others. I prefer the Emperor way, a lesser of 2 evil. *

*PS sorry for my "/$%? english.*


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

thrice00 said:


> Personally, I think you're too white knigt(without insulting you).
> 
> One of you earlier post: We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.
> 
> ...


No worries about your English! It is far, far better than my command of whatever your first language is! 

I still think the Emperor, and the 40K Imperium, should have tried something different. There must be ways of fighting Chaos that do not involve genocide. Wouldn't genocide be one of Chaos' chief weapons, after all? (And Fear! Two! Our two chief weapons are genocide and fear!) Sacrifices and spilled blood have got to be something Chaos benefits from. 

How about letting all know what the enemy is, and seeing what ideas others come up with. The Emperor obviously has the most experience with fighting it. But it's equally obvious that he did not come up with a workable solution. Maybe other minds could have come up with other weapons, defences, etc. The solution to rid humanity of all religious inclinations is so obviously doomed to failure that it is difficult to suspend my disbelief in the whole mythos. Nobody with thousands of years of studying humanity, with a for-all-practical-purposes limitless psychic mind, would have gone that route.


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Vitarus said:


> No worries about your English! It is far, far better than my command of whatever your first language is!
> 
> I still think the Emperor, and the 40K Imperium, should have tried something different. There must be ways of fighting Chaos that do not involve genocide. Wouldn't genocide be one of Chaos' chief weapons, after all? (And Fear! Two! Our two chief weapons are genocide and fear!) Sacrifices and spilled blood have got to be something Chaos benefits from.
> 
> How about letting all know what the enemy is, and seeing what ideas others come up with. The Emperor obviously has the most experience with fighting it. But it's equally obvious that he did not come up with a workable solution. Maybe other minds could have come up with other weapons, defences, etc. The solution to rid humanity of all religious inclinations is so obviously doomed to failure that it is difficult to suspend my disbelief in the whole mythos. Nobody with thousands of years of studying humanity, with a for-all-practical-purposes limitless psychic mind, would have gone that route.


 humanity did try a different method before the emperor came to power and then the xenos back stabbed them so would you let them stay alive when they can potentially kill you? the reason why people don't know about chaos is because that is how you can be infected by it- by knowing.
about it also it may affect the morale of the population to know that the space marines are corruptible and that daemons exist and can very easily kill you and there isn't that much to about it as even if you survive you are tainted and then killed.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

EVERY Xenos species did not attack humans. There were any number of species who were happy to live peacefully with humans. But, since those on Planet A killed humans, Planets B-Z were wiped out.

As were all planets who were settled by humans, but did not follow the Imperial Truth. 

Seriously, how does anyone not think this is evil? The Emperor is supposed to be the good guy, and this is how he behaves? Call it the lesser of the evils if it's necessary, but recognize the horror of this "solution". It's not different from, say, the US wiping out all Muslims, because some flew planes into our buildings. If we're the good guys, it's acceptable to survive at any cost whatsoever? As long as we show great remorse for all the children we kill? No, it is not okay. Of _course_ Chaos is evil. That's a given. That's they're function. But not everything that opposes Chaos is good. Many Xenos were good. The Imperium is not.


----------



## thrice00 (Jan 16, 2012)

The US don't have to fight ORKS, PSYCHO cultits, FREAKING Trillions of tyranids, A BIG sects of TAU xenos lovers scum, Strange elves that would let billions die to save some thousands of them. Their freaking dark psycho cousins who would skin you alive + FREAKINGS ORKS AGAIN!!!!....... + ANOTHER FREAKING TRILLIONS TYRANIDS.

Humanity In 40K or Warhammer is just doom to failure even with the harsh method of the emperor.

AND.......
It's a big fantasy world ........


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

thrice00 said:


> AND.......
> It's a big fantasy world ........


lol. True enough. But the question was asked. My answer is:
-Argel Tal had seen and objected to the evils of the Emperor.
-He didn't know Chaos existed because the Emperor had lied about it all along.
-He suddenly learned about the existence of Chaos and the Emperor's lie.
-He saw nasty stuff out of Chaos right away, but that initial exposure wasn't nearly what he'd known under the Emperor.

Therefore, choosing this new, obviously important truth over the Emperor was not wrong.

Which says nothing about whether or not it was wrong to _stay on_ the path of Chaos.


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

> lol. True enough. But the question was asked. My answer is:
> -Argel Tal had seen and objected to the evils of the Emperor.
> -He didn't know Chaos existed because the Emperor had lied about it all along.
> -He suddenly learned about the existence of Chaos and the Emperor's lie.
> ...





> EVERY Xenos species did not attack humans. There were any number of species who were happy to live peacefully with humans. But, since those on Planet A killed humans, Planets B-Z were wiped out.


This is incorrect to some degree. While the overall statement that not every, single xeno attacked Humanity is true. The assumption that only some did and therefore all must be wiped out is clearly false. 

The vast majority of xenos have attacked Humanity on-site. The Orks come for war and bloodshed. The Tyranids never sent ambassadors. The myriad of thousands of xeno races in the galaxy could not be trusted by the Emperor in his grand scheme. You forget, thousands of Humanity's colonies were ransacked, enslaved, genocided, and worse when the Age of Strife began. Earth was subject to brutal persecution by their, now, Martian allies. 

When the Emperor came to power you do not think he knew of this? Let us assume for arguments sake that he did not and set forth with his Legions. Surely after the first few decades of running into world after world living the terror of xenos or utterly destroyed by them -- along with meeting our eternal friends the Orks and the vicious lies of the Eldar ... perhaps the Emperor made a decision. Instead of following some fluffy humanitarian policy of judging each xenos individually and hoping that during this judgement they didn't try to kill you in return; that it'd just be easier to exterminate them all and give the Milky Way to Humanity. 

The Imperium does not hate becuase of petty intolerance. It hates because it has every reason to hate.



> As were all planets who were settled by humans, but did not follow the Imperial Truth.


Again this comes down to the Emperor's overall plan for the Imperium and the Galaxy. He knew of the full extent of Chaos, he knew of the madness and the insanity that laid within its embrace.

Would you, as a normal human, like to live on a Daemon World? I would assume not since you'd be crushed to dust by the strong. Now I will concede that your life on an Imperial world may not be entirely different but it would at least have purpose.

The Emperor's vision for Humanity is NOT the current Imperium nor even the Imperium of 30K. There was still so much more to go once the Milky Way was conquored. The Hive Cities that so dominate our mental images of the Imperium would likely be different. The Forge Worlds would be completely different given time and peace.

You call the Emperor the 'lesser of two evils' -- I disagree. When he came to a world that refused the Imperial Truth, he no doubt initially asked why. Remember when the books started the Great Crusades was already two centuries old. 

In the beginning perhaps the Emperor and the Legions did ask why a world would not follow compliance. Most worlds who refused had a reason to refuse. Some disregarded Terra's rightful claim to them and resisted. These pockets of independant states could not be tolerated, not when every world must play a critical part in the Crusade's success.

Other worlds or systems refused because their already established government or tyrants were not about to relinquish the power they'd acquired or held for centuries. Others were manipulated by xenos of all creeds and natures. 

Those that refuted the Imperial Truth of coarse had to be purged. They were often given ample chances and warnings -- emissaries sent. Look at Horus Rising when Sajunas (sp?) was sent to the False Terra. They shot him out of the sky and killed him ... did Horus (whom loved Sanjus above so many) instantly terminate the world? No, he sent the Twisted and he too was shot down. Only then did the Warmaster attack the world.

While I doubt Legions like the World Eaters give little room or time to diplomacy beyond 'Surrender or Die' -- an equal amount would give the chance for redemption and peace. The Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Luna Wolves, and other legions did not instantly go to the slaughter. 

If you'd like to get into the religious aspect of it. Likely the Emperor knew that most of the galaxies religions ultimately can trace their lineage back to some diluted worship of the Dark Gods. Now how could he allow it to continue to live? And imagine the monumental task it would be to root peaceful religions from the ruinous ones? Far better and easier to destroy them all and therefore leave no room for mistakes or errors. 

You call what the Emperor did evil. I call it bold and efficient.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I think Terra's rightful claim to those planets is akin to England's rightful claim to the American colonies. 

I think eliminating all forms of worship/faith/religion was *A* way (if combined with killing all psykers) to keep the Ruinous Powers in the Empyrean. It eliminated their doorways into the universe. And following the Imperial Truth absolutely was the easiest way of making sure there was no worship/faith/religion. But I wouldn't say that's playing a "critical part" in the plan. The important part was that a planet was not a doorway for Chaos, regardless of whether there were 1,000 planets, or 1,000,000. No, I don't know that there wasn't more to the plan, but we also don't know that there was.

(Hey, I'm having a lot of fun here, folks! Hope I'm not annoying anyone. _Too_ much. Lol)


----------



## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

BlackGuard said:


> This is incorrect to some degree. While the overall statement that not every, single xeno attacked Humanity is true. The assumption that only some did and therefore all must be wiped out is clearly false.
> 
> The vast majority of xenos have attacked Humanity on-site. The Orks come for war and bloodshed. The Tyranids never sent ambassadors. The myriad of thousands of xeno races in the galaxy could not be trusted by the Emperor in his grand scheme. You forget, thousands of Humanity's colonies were ransacked, enslaved, genocided, and worse when the Age of Strife began. Earth was subject to brutal persecution by their, now, Martian allies.
> 
> ...


^ This


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

So am I the only one who was cheering for the Space Wolves in The Emperor's Gift? Because _they_ were the good guys! (At least in that book. heh)


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Vitarus said:


> I think Terra's rightful claim to those planets is akin to England's rightful claim to the American colonies.
> 
> I think eliminating all forms of worship/faith/religion was *A* way (if combined with killing all psykers) to keep the Ruinous Powers in the Empyrean. It eliminated their doorways into the universe. And following the Imperial Truth absolutely was the easiest way of making sure there was no worship/faith/religion. But I wouldn't say that's playing a "critical part" in the plan. The important part was that a planet was not a doorway for Chaos, regardless of whether there were 1,000 planets, or 1,000,000. No, I don't know that there wasn't more to the plan, but we also don't know that there was.
> 
> (Hey, I'm having a lot of fun here, folks! Hope I'm not annoying anyone. _Too_ much. Lol)


 it is Britain not England 

why would the emperor kill the psykers as he is one?? and if he did kill all the psykers then it would be a genocide which you were arguing against doing earlier. planets had to accept the imperial truth as otherwise you could have potentially hostile planets attacking your planets so pulling forces away from the crusade and the uniting of humanity.


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

People who try to defend Chaos are either trying to be philispocial or are just plain crazy. The short answer, and the best one IMO is that when you start sprouting tentacles you have done something wrong. Call me crazy.

Comparing the Emperor's way of doing things to what Chaos is, is like comparing the Holocaust to the Salem witch hunts. Yep, both are bad - but if you HAVE to choose between one or the other almost everyone would choose the witch hunts. There is no good in the 40k universe, just lesser degrees of bad.

The Emperor lied everyone about Chaos in an attempt get rid of it by not fueling it with worship. He was the father, we were the children and he made a judgement call. You can disagree with the call if you like, but I think that is Monday morning quarterbacking.

The, 'OMG, HE LIED TO US!' is such crap.

*Your parents lied to you about Santa Claus
*You were lied to in school (however far you got) by being told that you would use EVERYTHING they taught later in life.
*You were lied to when you were told you are a unique snowflake.
*You were lied to when you recieved a 'participation' trophy in whatever sport you played in as if you had 'won' something.

The list goes on, and it doesn't stop just with the lies you were told. There are also the lies you tell others and yourself.

*Telling the truth is always the best thing
*The good guys always win.
* I am a good/bad person.
*If I live a good life, good things will happen to me.
*Good will conquer evil.

I am not against any of the above. Some of the stuff you are taught, some you just accept. Some are not true but you need them to be true to have a good life. That or you are a sociopath.

So the Emperor hid Chaos from the masses. So what. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of 1st graders have never see pictures of the nazi death camps or any of the unspeakable horrors that go on on this planet on a daily basis. Are they being lied to? Should they be shown the contents of Jeffery Dalmer's apartment because not to do so would be deceiving them? Maybe show them x-rated movies so that they know what sex is?

Equating our level of understanding to that of the level of the Emperor... well, I am being kind by saying we are first graders. So unless you are prepared to say that it is a good idea in the name of full disclosure to have a first grader watch porno in Jeffery Dalmer's apartment with holocaust pictures all over the walls, than the argument of "he lied to us" holds no water.

Oh, and to the first graders in 40k who did do the above - they sprouted tentacles and went insane.:shok:


----------



## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Zooey72 said:


> People who try to defend Chaos are either trying to be philispocial or are just plain crazy. The short answer, and the best one IMO is that when you start sprouting tentacles you have done something wrong. Call me crazy.
> 
> Comparing the Emperor's way of doing things to what Chaos is, is like comparing the Holocaust to the Salem witch hunts. Yep, both are bad - but if you HAVE to choose between one or the other almost everyone would choose the witch hunts. There is no good in the 40k universe, just lesser degrees of bad.
> 
> ...


Your taking this way to seriously! Philosophy in the 40k universe.

Anyone that knows anything is that tentacle sex always leads to the dark side.


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

That awkward moment when you post a long and well thought out rationale on life and religion only to realise it's based off a fictitious universe based off a tabletop game.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To answer the OP's question, in all honesty, it comes down to the upbringing of both warriors. Loken was raised to be a warrior, period. Argel Tal was raised to be a holy warrior. All Loken knew was war. Argel Tal knew war waged in the name of religious convictions.

That's the key difference between them. When Horus and his cronies decided to rebel, their motivations were contrary to everything Loken stood for. By contrast, Lorgar's rebellion went hand in hand with his ideals. The "truth" he presented to Argel Tal was a bitter pill to swallow, but it was "truth" all the same. And while I don't think the Imperium circa Great Crusade was as bad as the death, suffering, and mutilation that Chaos demanded, I think it made it easier for Argel Tal to make his choice.


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Brother Subtle said:


> That awkward moment when you post a long and well thought out rationale on life and religion only to realise it's based off a fictitious universe based off a tabletop game.


I like that.

But tech. I am talking about the books, not the zen of painting minis. I love (most) of the books, and if you wanna give me grief about thinking about the world the various authors created that's cool. Call me a nerd if you like, but I think I am in a forum full of nerds. I also like Holden Caulfield (Salinger 'Catcher in the Rye') and Nick Andros (Steven King 'The Stand'). I have opinions of those fictional worlds as well that have nothing to do with a table top game.

I will do you one better as far as nerdom goes. My GF cried when she read "Galaxy in Flames" when Torgadon got killed and refused to believe Loken was dead (she ended up being right on that one). That's good writing.

If you don't get into the books and the fictitious universe, than why read the books, much less go on a forum to post about them?


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> I like that.
> 
> But tech. I am talking about the books, not the zen of painting minis. I love (most) of the books, and if you wanna give me grief about thinking about the world the various authors created that's cool. Call me a nerd if you like, but I think I am in a forum full of nerds. I also like Holden Caulfield (Salinger 'Catcher in the Rye') and Nick Andros (Steven King 'The Stand'). I have opinions of those fictional worlds as well that have nothing to do with a table top game.
> 
> I will do you one better as far as nerdom goes. My GF cried when she read "Galaxy in Flames" when Torgadon got killed and refused to believe Loken was dead (she ended up being right on that one). That's good writing.


I had no intention of giving you grief nor calling you a nerd. My statement was simply trying to bring the thread back out of the over-philosophising and preachy direction it was heading. I'm all for discussing things in he context of 40k, that's why we're here. But sometimes it gets a little silly when people draw connections in the way they think about the real world to what they read in 40k, one does not draw logical real life conclusions from the made up. And if you read over the last page or so, people were already getting their backs up a little about who was right or wrong. Which again is silly because 40k is a made up world... no one is right. The entire point about my post was a giant chill pill. Let's all take one ay?



Zooey72 said:


> If you don't get into the books and the fictitious universe, than why read the books, much less go on a forum to post about them?


Also, lets not get into a pissing contest about 'who's more into the books'. I bought my first 40k game (2nd edition) back in 1995. And I've read over 60 40k fiction novels since then, including running a review blog about what I was reading. I think im into 40k enough. Plus, ones opinion on 40k has no validity to how much you have read or how 'into 40k' you are. It's a fictitious universe. No one is right or wrong.


----------



## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. That's how it works, isn't it?






:grin:


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Vitarus said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. That's how it works, isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well that's wrong because I m always correct


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Brother Subtle said:


> I had no intention of giving you grief nor calling you a nerd. My statement was simply trying to bring the thread back out of the over-philosophising and preachy direction it was heading. I'm all for discussing things in he context of 40k, that's why we're here. But sometimes it gets a little silly when people draw connections in the way they think about the real world to what they read in 40k, one does not draw logical real life conclusions from the made up. And if you read over the last page or so, people were already getting their backs up a little about who was right or wrong. Which again is silly because 40k is a made up world... no one is right. The entire point about my post was a giant chill pill. Let's all take one ay?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, lets not get into a pissing contest about 'who's more into the books'. I bought my first 40k game (2nd edition) back in 1995. And I've read over 60 40k fiction novels since then, including running a review blog about what I was reading. I think im into 40k enough. Plus, ones opinion on 40k has no validity to how much you have read or how 'into 40k' you are. It's a fictitious universe. No one is right or wrong.


I get your point, but I have to disagree with you.

I don't know about you, but other than some chainsword porn, what exactly do you like about 40k if not the philisopical part of it? If your argument is "these are astartes/eldar/orcs/chaos blah blah blah, and you can't relate to that". Well, than the whole concept would have never taken off. Everyone who has read these books is human. If humans could not relate to them than there would be no sell.

Lovecraft wrote some really screwed up stuff that people can debate about. I think a lot of Warhammer (40k and fantasy) is based off his stuff. The whole notion of Chaos IMO probably came from "The Elder Gods". That being said debating about Cthullu does not seem silly to me. The list goes on and on with fiction. "Interview with a Vampire" was also a great book. I don't need to be a vampire to appreciate the point Ann Rice was trying to make with Louis and Lestat.

40k rocks as far as retelling the whole God/Lucifer story. It has a twist to it where God is a cripple and Lucifer is dead (depending if you want o call Horus Lucifer), but it is still the same story. Lucifer brought down 1/2 the angels in heaven with him to wage war against God, Horus brought 9 primarchs.

I could go on and on with this, but I think I have made my point. 

As far as nerdom goes, I won't go into it too much because I agree with you. It does turn into a penis measuring contest. I normaly don't brag about my age because I wish I wasn't as old as dirt, but I don't often get to brag that I am 40 years old. I have been playing this stuff since the 80s (fantasy at first, I hated the idea of 40k when I first heard about it. Chaos in Space? That's stupid!).

Man that brings back memories. I have a really religious aunt who always wanted to save me from evil role playing games. I always argued with her about them being 'evil'. Anyway, one day I went up stairs to grab some books because me and my buddies wanted to play. My friend was at the bottom of the stairs (next to my aunt) and yelled up "Hey Zooey, don't forget 'The Lost and the Damned" and "Slaves to Darkness".

I couldn't help but cackle as I passed my aunt on the way out.

Edited to add, your comment of "no one being right or wrong". That's the point isn't it? We are debating an opinion on a book(s). I don't think there would be much of an argument (or forum) if we were debating "Does 2 + 2 = 4"? It's an opinion about a book series. No one here (I hope) prays to the Emperor or Chaos Gods before they go to sleep, but if you can't get any more from the books than bolter porn might I suggest a Quinton Tarantino movie. They are more straight to the point.


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

You totally misinterpreted my posts. But really... Who cares ay? Back on topic?


----------



## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

I think the topic has died


----------



## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> 40k rocks as far as retelling the whole God/Lucifer story. It has a twist to it where God is a cripple and Lucifer is dead (depending if you want o call Horus Lucifer), but it is still the same story. Lucifer brought down 1/2 the angels in heaven with him to wage war against God, Horus brought 9 primarchs.


I'm not sure about this analogy. If you continue with it, it says that Lucifer was manipulated by malevolent forces infinitely more powerful than him, and that they are still around. Yes, I know it is silly but it's still kind of creepy thinking about it.

On topic, I'd support Loken. He was strong enough to stick to his beliefs, rather than follow most of his comrades and his primarch to Chaos.


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

The Meddler said:


> I'm not sure about this analogy. If you continue with it, it says that Lucifer was manipulated by malevolent forces infinitely more powerful than him, and that they are still around. Yes, I know it is silly but it's still kind of creepy thinking about it.
> 
> On topic, I'd support Loken. He was strong enough to stick to his beliefs, rather than follow most of his comrades and his primarch to Chaos.


I see what you are saying but to have the full context of both stories we would have to know what motivated Satan to turn against God, which we will never know (or maybe when we are dead). Christian doctrine says that Satan came up with the idea of betrayal on his own, which is odd. When all you know is the grace of God how could you come up with the idea of betrayal? Christian doctrine also says that angels do no have free will, they can only obey God. Maybe that was the real original sin, the free will Lucifer displayed by betraying God? And what is even more messed up is that God later created man and gave him the free will that Lucifer never had.

Drawing a parallel to that and HH, maybe the astartes were never supposed to have free will. What kind of human male built like a brick shit house (which means hormones, and were turned into astartes at puberty) who has to strain to try to understand what sexual attraction is? They don't reproduce, they do not lust, they do not even feel ambition other than how to advance themselves to further the Emperor's will. In "Horus Rising" Abnett made a point to show that even the great Warmaster had hardly any personal effects in his own room.

One of the reasons Horus fell was because he questioned the Emperor "What happens to us after the Great Crusade?"` Honestly, it shouldn't have mattered to Horus. The Emperor conquered the Galaxy for humanity, not for the Astartes. The Astartes probably would have died the same death the 'Thunder Warriors' did before them.

But you have to remember, he was creating the "Imperium of Man", not a kingdom for Astartes to rule.


----------

