# Are Tyranids dead meat in 6th edition?



## Topknot11

KK after reading thru my new 6th edition book that I picked up this a.m. I am unhappy to with what it does to Nids. 
My first impressions are not very good at all outflanking and acute senses have been nerfed like crazy as well as fleet. MC's got a little but they seem to have lost a bit also so Ill call meh on them. 
THey have taken a once feared and dominating army and neutered it I hope to goodness that they get a new codex and soon.
Or is it jut me? Have I over looked something, I am trying to put a smiley face on it for my freind who plays nids but gets harder the more I read. Comments or advice are appreciated.:angry:


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## Septok

We've done awfully coming into 6th. 
-Overwatch gets us killed before we assault. No matter what, Hormas are less worth taking.
-Night fighting now just gives us some cover. While this is good for shootier stuff (see where the edition's going?), we're not getting much protection from it anymore.
-Vehicles can now always fire everything. Even on the move.
-MCs now have to lose half of their attacks for vehicle killing! The carnifex benefits from this though, with S9 already. 
-With rapid fire being able to move and shoot full distance, our enemies are now pretty much all more mobile. 
-Fleet has been nerfed. 6"+D6+6" is much better than 6"+2D6. We're not even guaranteed 12" assaults now. 
-Venom cannons can now NEVER instakill a vehicle, unless it's open-topped.
-Venomthropes don't even stack with Night fighting!

A few things did well though:
-Harpies and Flyrants are flying MCs. Which is good, because we can go vector striking and then shooting stuff all over the place. AND we only get hit on 6s.
-DS is now less likely to murder us.
-All MCs are now AP2, with +1 to the damage charts.
-Hull points gives us a way to deal with things (Hello, Hive Guard).
-We can buy cover (screw logic).


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## Kelann08

I've read a few articles by tyranid players calling the overall changes a buff. Most people will need to rethink how they approach things. Knee jerk reactions seldom pan out in the end. You may find that things work better than you think (FYI - vector strike is huge).


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## Tim/Steve

Why doesn't night fighting work with venomthropes? They grant a 5+ cover save and night fighting gives either stealth or shrouded... so either way its upping that cover save.

I think you'll see a huge increase in harpies and hive guard... but yeah, with so much more rapid fire around (move and shoot 24" means we start to get hit much earlier) means gaunts and soft things like raveners are just going to die horribly. The harpy now makes a lot of sense, since before it was easy to ID, could die to heavy bolters stupidly quickly and could almost never use its spore mines... now its evil. I expect 3 harpy armies to be fairly standard at tournies.

On the other hand, fleet hasn't lost out all that much: 6" move +D6" run +6" charge gives an average of 15.5" threat, while the new fleet gives 6" move +2D6" individually rerollable ... giving a quick average of about 14.5" (that's if you reroll 1s, 2s and 3s. I quite like the fleet changes, it should add some fun to the game


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## Fallen

from what ive read ive deduced two possible things; both are pure opinion FYI.

1) Nids are going to get a quick turnaround for a codex (respectively its GW, so maybe 2013 at the earliest) because the nids got no good benefits to any real upgrades/rule changes. or a major overhaul FAQ soonish...

2) Nids are going to be less competitive than they were at the end of 5th; which is hard to do.


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## Pandora

I think you'll just have to rethink your army builds. As Tim/Steve said, Harpies will be mean, though people will take whatever to give them Skyfire. Skyfire makes me want to run no flyers, just because people will be spending points for an unnecessary special ability then. But many armies are needing to re-think their builds now. Off the top of my head, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids will need to do more re-thinking than others. But everyone's going to have some units that are no longer as effective, while other units get scarey.


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## Sakura_ninja

Yeah tyranids are wrecked now, I mean Jesus Christ 10 marines on overwatch might kill 2 gaunts...TWO!!!, Jesus Christ how are nid players going to survive that, that's easily 1:75 of the army killed before a charge.

At moving and shooting at 24" is just stupid, I mean Christ after deployment your already 24" apart, so now on turn 1 the enemy can shoot 1 shot at you after moving instead of 1 shot after you move, its stupid, you now need to use cover and think about your movement, that's just dumb

And charge distances my god, on a re-roll possible 2d6 your only gonna average between 5 and 7, that only gives you an almost guaranteed 11-13" charge, that's just useless, that means you have to wait and charge turn 2, unlike before where an average 14-16" move and charge and fleet guaranteed a much quicker turn 2 charge

And a cover save at night is stupid, before the night fighting rules were pointless because you always could see far enough or use equipment to negate night fight and have it take no effect, but now its just a crummy 5+ save, that's allot worse than having nothing.

And how vehicles will be dealt with nobody knows, unlike 5th where nids had to penetrate to stand a chance they now can kill via glancing, and that's terrible for them, killing tanks by not penetrating?, may as well not bother had they


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## Kelann08

Sakura_ninja said:


> Yeah tyranids are wrecked now, I mean Jesus Christ 10 marines on overwatch might kill 2 gaunts...TWO!!!, Jesus Christ how are nid players going to survive that, that's easily 1:75 of the army killed before a charge.
> 
> At moving and shooting at 24" is just stupid, I mean Christ after deployment your already 24" apart, so now on turn 1 the enemy can shoot 1 shot at you after moving instead of 1 shot after you move, its stupid, you now need to use cover and think about your movement, that's just dumb
> 
> And charge distances my god, on a re-roll possible 2d6 your only gonna average between 5 and 7, that only gives you an almost guaranteed 11-13" charge, that's just useless, that means you have to wait and charge turn 2, unlike before where an average 14-16" move and charge and fleet guaranteed a much quicker turn 2 charge
> 
> And a cover save at night is stupid, before the night fighting rules were pointless because you always could see far enough or use equipment to negate night fight and have it take no effect, but now its just a crummy 5+ save, that's allot worse than having nothing.
> 
> And how vehicles will be dealt with nobody knows, unlike 5th where nids had to penetrate to stand a chance they now can kill via glancing, and that's terrible for them, killing tanks by not penetrating?, may as well not bother had they


I see what you did there...


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## pantat

Don't forget gargoyles get Hammer of Wrath (not that massive a consolation but still)


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## LordStubert

pantat said:


> Don't forget gargoyles get Hammer of Wrath (not that massive a consolation but still)


It's pretty good when the attacks are poisoned.


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## Da Joka

Sakura_ninja said:


> Yeah tyranids are wrecked now, I mean Jesus Christ 10 marines on overwatch might kill 2 gaunts...TWO!!!, Jesus Christ how are nid players going to survive that, that's easily 1:75 of the army killed before a charge.
> 
> At moving and shooting at 24" is just stupid, I mean Christ after deployment your already 24" apart, so now on turn 1 the enemy can shoot 1 shot at you after moving instead of 1 shot after you move, its stupid, you now need to use cover and think about your movement, that's just dumb
> 
> And charge distances my god, on a re-roll possible 2d6 your only gonna average between 5 and 7, that only gives you an almost guaranteed 11-13" charge, that's just useless, that means you have to wait and charge turn 2, unlike before where an average 14-16" move and charge and fleet guaranteed a much quicker turn 2 charge
> 
> And a cover save at night is stupid, before the night fighting rules were pointless because you always could see far enough or use equipment to negate night fight and have it take no effect, but now its just a crummy 5+ save, that's allot worse than having nothing.
> 
> And how vehicles will be dealt with nobody knows, unlike 5th where nids had to penetrate to stand a chance they now can kill via glancing, and that's terrible for them, killing tanks by not penetrating?, may as well not bother had they


:goodpost:



LordStubert said:


> It's pretty good when the attacks are poisoned.


Hammer of Wrath doesn't benefit from special weapon rules nor does it have an AP. However they are still very good.

With the FC nerf, and the fact that Nobs aren't Characters, and thus don't get "Look out Sir" or precision shots/strikes, means that Orks got hit harder Nids. You just have to learn how to play differently.


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## MidnightSun

Erm, Nobz ARE characters. Pg 413, under Codex: Orks. Nobz are Characters.

Apart from that, I think I need a doctor. I actually agree with _everything_ Sakura_Ninja said. I can't believe that people are wailing about Flyers being hit on 6s and thus being hard to hit, but Overwatch hitting on 6s demolishing hordes.

3 Harpies at tournaments? I'd be surprised if people only ran three, considering that most tournaments will run at 2k and thus have double FOC. Of course, now there's the horror of a 10-Tervigon force all running Biomancy/Catalyst with some Termagants in a Fortress of Redemption. In fact, Hive Tyrant powers got a real buff in this edition. Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Endruance, Life Leech (oh-so-much better than Leech Essence) and Warp Speed are all sweet powers that are nigh-on impossible to stop because only Runes of Warding, Runic Staves and enemy SitW works on them.

All TMCs get Fear, so running multiple Broodlords for Challenges and the new Psychic Disciplines and, conveniently, provide Leadership penalties (stronger than before due to the nerf on Psychic Hoods).

SitW got better as it didn't get hit by the new Psychic Hood rules that so many other armies are feeling the burn of.

Raveners can move 12" in the Movement phase, AND go up ruins! Hooray! They can also jump off them.

Tyranids only got really smacked with their lack of Allies, and even then double FOC means you can compensate by just taking more dudes (who are now more durable with a very wide-spread ability to take Biomancy - if you're lucky instead of Feel No Pain you'll have Hormagaunts with FnP and IWND).

Midnight


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## Da Joka

MidnightSun said:


> Erm, Nobz ARE characters. Pg 413, under Codex: Orks. Nobz are Characters.


:read: I just found this in my book and was coming to edit my post.


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## OddJob

I haven't had a chance to really digest the new rules properly or play and 6th ed games, but two things really stand out to me:

1) In 5th our biggest issue was dealing with hordes of tanks. Now, pretty much anything we get close to is instantly toast. I always loved surrounding transports with gargoyles and glancing it to death, but it was very situational. Now it's almost guaranteed to work regardless of how fast the tank has moved )


2) Flyers seem pretty ace/nails, and I can't think of a decent counter yet.

I predict that we are going to see a lot more infantry hitting the tables. Tyranids never had much of an issue with infantry.


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## mcmuffin

Best counter to flyers is the vendetta or doomscythe, or indeed just other flyers. My puppies got a little sad at that since i would rather not have to take allies. 

But seriously, you just have to adjust your game to deal with it, think of new ways to win, fliers have limited mobility, so use that to your advantage. 

Nids got better with this edition, though not having eternal warrior still bones their big gribblies, but harpies look good now.


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## CrimsonWalrus15

As many people have pointed out, Nid's have not been hit that hard (if at all) by 6th edition. The reasons are plentiful:
1) As we have no vehicles, we won't suffer from all the penalties that have nurfed them.
2) Instinctive Behavior - Feed is much more powerful (still no shooting, though. FAQ.)
3) Flying MC's are the bomb, and tunnel/hoard/flying nids are more powerful
4) Raveners have benefited massively, as has been pointed out before.
5) As there is no allies, and fortifications for us are pointless (with a range on average of 12-18", we need to be close), we will have more points of one army on the table than any other person.

All this and more means we are now EPIC.


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## stalarious

Well with reading the posts here (i havent read the 6th ed book didnt know it came out) I gotta say its just going to make us rethink standard nid tactics I for one am excited to bring some new tricks to the table while we wait for a codex update.


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## OxXy Cl33N

My wife and her uncle play nids and there is 1 big perk nobody is meantioning. Psykers, nids can field probably more psykers at 1 time than any other army (tyrants, swarm lord, broodlord, zoanthropes, DoM, tervigon). most have multiple powers and they now have 3 tables they can swap powers from. I think it might be too early to tell if it will be truly effective but the option is there.
I must admit though this wasnt my observation but my wifes uncls. But a decent perk nonetheless. 
Though a ability to have more spykers does not excuse the constant nerfing by GW in my opinion.


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## gally912

I think the one of the biggest nid buffs is the loss of "No Retreat" wounds.

That and rending is now one of the few ways to get AP2 in CC at initiative.


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## Sakura_ninja

gally912 said:


> I think the one of the biggest nid buffs is the loss of "No Retreat" wounds.
> 
> That and rending is now one of the few ways to get AP2 in CC at initiative.


Ahh but its already been proven you can't reach combat with nids, overwatch wipes out armies


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## MidnightSun

Good point, almost seems worth using clever movement to put Hormagaunts out of Synapse range to make them go into 'I have 4 attacks on the charge!' mode and then catch up with the Synapses in another assault or in the next turn.

Midnight


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## Unforgiven302

After buying into nids over a year ago, and being rather disappointed in their abilities in 5th ed. making me shelve them, I must say things look good for 6th and the bugs. Yes, 6th is going to be a shooting game from the looks of it, but with so many other things being applied to the game, nids stand a chance to really come out on top. I foresee a reduction in tanks in peoples armies, due to the ability to destroy with glancing hits, so that is one headache out of the way for nid's. Psychic powers are prevalent in a nid army, and with so many psykers available to the nids, the new powers are a huge asset. At first I was put off by the random charge range in 6th, (2D6) but with an average roll being a 7, this is acceptable. Overwatch is rather crap for regular or small units. Large squads, like orks and guard will do the most damage for the simple fact that rolling 20 free pre-assault shots will sting a little, but not too much. Just use cover like everyone always has in the past. I don't know about you, but I don't play on a large, flat board with little to no scenery. I play on suitably cluttered tables were cover is usually enough to keep my units alive long enough to make it into CC. If you do see your units being torn to shit by overwatch fire, then you need to check for loaded dice, add more models to those units or change your manner of attack. 

Out of my three main armies, CSM's, Ork's and Nid's, I am most excited to bring the nid's out first in 6th.


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## Turnip86

The only issue I can see with overwatch is units that can bring 4 flamers to the table and get 4 D3 hits on the charging unit. That might take a chunk out of any charging unit but still you probably wont see THAT many units with a build like that.

I'm looking forward to getting back to the UK to dust off my nids again. My only problem is my army was built around 3rd edition rules so I need a few new units to be competitive.


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## Septok

Tim/Steve said:


> Why doesn't night fighting work with venomthropes? They grant a 5+ cover save and night fighting gives either stealth or shrouded... so either way its upping that cover save.
> 
> The FAQ states that Venomthropes confer the shrouded rule, which means that our cover only gets boosted in 12-24". By 1 point. And we get no benefit whatsoever at 24-36" when venomthropes are working.
> 
> I think you'll see a huge increase in harpies and hive guard... but yeah, with so much more rapid fire around (move and shoot 24" means we start to get hit much earlier) means gaunts and soft things like raveners are just going to die horribly. The harpy now makes a lot of sense, since before it was easy to ID, could die to heavy bolters stupidly quickly and could almost never use its spore mines... now its evil. I expect 3 harpy armies to be fairly standard at tournies.
> 
> Now all we need is harpy models.
> 
> On the other hand, fleet hasn't lost out all that much: 6" move +D6" run +6" charge gives an average of 15.5" threat, while the new fleet gives 6" move +2D6" individually rerollable ... giving a quick average of about 14.5" (that's if you reroll 1s, 2s and 3s. I quite like the fleet changes, it should add some fun to the game
> 
> We have lost an inch of average charge range. We also have a much greater range of charge ranges - 8" to 18". Less charge predictability though.





pantat said:


> Don't forget gargoyles get Hammer of Wrath (not that massive a consolation but still)
> 
> With a unit of 30, that could be quite a big deal. We didn't have any CC ap anyway, and 30 free I10 attacks plus 60 I4 attacks could easily put pain into anyone's day (short of vehicles).


Let's do some maths. Assuming Hormas charging 30 lasguns. It will be in 12", so we're looking at 60 shots against us. Average 10 hits, 5 wounds, unlikely to save anything. Again assuming no synapse on them, you've just lost 20 attacks, which is roughly enough to make 2-3 guardsmen go bye-bye. Overall, it's not very major. However, whatever way you look at it, overwatch is going to hurt us. Not very much, but it still can tip the way the game plays. A few attacks could be the difference between us winning and losing a combat. 

We will also be splitting battlelines. Rage and Feed Behaviour have become much better, and besides, who doesn't want 4A Hormas or 6A Fexes? Which is another point - Carnifexes have got a comparative boon, as they don't need to use smash ever. With paired talons, we're likely to get 5 or 6 hits on a vehicle, which is then 5 or 6 chances to break into a vehicle. Even LRs and Monoliths need to be very, very scared.


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## Tim/Steve

Its large squads of burna boyz that terrify me: 15 burnas are going to eradicate any nid infantry unit they come to... and if you do get the charge on them they'll likely cause 20 wounds to T3 with overwatch.
They were horrible before, but now they are just insane...


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## Creator of Chaos

Tyranids are not dead people Not by a long shot. Well Ok Gene Stealer Rush and Tervigon Spam might have got nerfed and you cant get allies but so what. Overwatch is overrated (I can tell you that anything other then Hoards gain little from this). Nids gain 50% nightfighting, Monstourous creatures got better, Vechiles will be rare and you can buy Cover. 

The only issue really faceing people is that they need get over that you cant Stealer Rush or rely on tervigons like you used to. Find new tactics. Monstorous creatures are much better so field more of them and take advantage of it. Support them with psychic powers and have a Tervigon work behind it constantly creating troops to ake objective. Honestly like necrons it seems to me that the army is gonna have to work together rather then rely on power units. Someone will come up with something. I'll say it once again Nids are not dead. They have only changed. You want a dead army look at Chaos Deamons, Look at Tau, Look at Dark Angels, Look at Chaos Space Marines. There dead and mostly unviable. Nids are workable its just that no one wants to put the effort it in since seeing the new book


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## Santaire

I have to say, you're worried about nids dying out? Have you seen the fricking Doom of Malantai? It brings a whole new meaning to the word overpowered. You've never seen a truly terrifying tyranid army have you? Most people who play them now just go straight for the horde. Have they not seen the potential of the 9 man army? :ireful2:

I've got a mate who plays with that and he's only lost one battle with them so far as I know. And that was against my brother's ork tank army. 2 battlewagons, a looted tank, 20 ard boys and 5 meganobs, all within 1000 points. Another seemingly unbeatable army. As I know quite well :headbutt:


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## MidnightSun

The fact is, Tyranids can take the most Psykers out of any army, and with one of the best disciplines - Biomancy. Granted, Smite is pretty bad, but you get 2 rolls on the table per Tervigon. Getting +D3 Toughness and Eternal Warrior is huge, and Endurance puts Catalyst to shame.

Feed got a whole lot better, now just giving out a buff for being out of Synapse. That's pretty awesome.

Doom of Malan'tai can swap out his fairly crappy Cataclysm for a different Biomancy power, and god help your opponent if you roll up Iron Arm. T5-7, Eternal Warrior, 10 wounds, and Psychic Hoods can't stop it. Hell, even rolling up one of the less ideal powers like Enfeeble is great - -1 Toughness on Space Marines means that Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs will be re-rolling wounds in combat, and -1 Strength means they'll be surviving a lot longer especially if combined with Catalyst or, even better, Endurance. Strangely enough, I don't think that Hemorrhage is a particularly good power, as I think that all of the buff spells are better. I wouldn't trade it for Smite though, it definitely has potential.

Midnight


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## Tim/Steve

@Septok- just reread the FAQ and can't see where it says venomthropes gives shrouded... all I see is that they give 5+ cover saves against shooting, so basically no changes from the dex.


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## Fallen

venomthropes no longer grant Defensive grenades to friends within 6". which is a REAL bummer now with how they work...


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## Zarenkenial

MidnightSun said:


> The fact is, Tyranids can take the most Psykers out of any army, and with one of the best disciplines - Biomancy. Granted, Smite is pretty bad, but you get 2 rolls on the table per Tervigon. Getting +D3 Toughness and Eternal Warrior is huge, and Endurance puts Catalyst to shame.
> 
> Feed got a whole lot better, now just giving out a buff for being out of Synapse. That's pretty awesome.
> 
> Doom of Malan'tai can swap out his fairly crappy Cataclysm for a different Biomancy power, and god help your opponent if you roll up Iron Arm. T5-7, Eternal Warrior, 10 wounds, and Psychic Hoods can't stop it. Hell, even rolling up one of the less ideal powers like Enfeeble is great - -1 Toughness on Space Marines means that Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs will be re-rolling wounds in combat, and -1 Strength means they'll be surviving a lot longer especially if combined with Catalyst or, even better, Endurance. Strangely enough, I don't think that Hemorrhage is a particularly good power, as I think that all of the buff spells are better. I wouldn't trade it for Smite though, it definitely has potential.
> 
> Midnight



If i am not mistaken, you can purchase both catalyst and onslaught, and along with dominion, you have the ability to swap all THREE of them for biomancy powers giving you better chances at getting what you want. Question is, is paying that extra points for the second power worth it? I, for one, say hell yeah! I will gladly increase my chances at getting iron arm. My tervigons have a habit of getting assaulted by things that cause insta death, let alone the fact that they are usually up in the top for target priority purposes for my opponent. Eternal warrior spares you from those pesky insta gibbin weapons, and the D3 S and T is an obvious boon. Nothing like having a bunch of S8 weapons wounding on a 5+ against your T9 Tervigon!

Also Midnight, I totally agree with you that the biomancy powers are especially useful for the doom. Iron arm is the obvious one. I am gunna give Psychic shriek from the telepathy discipline a try though my next game. It's a guaranteed power basically and, on top of the spirit leeching he is already doing, why not throw on one more shot at it with a nice 12" range  That, plus armor AND cover saves can't be taken against psychic shriek, unlike the Doom's spirit leech which we all know cover saves can be taken against.

I also have a question for anyone who can help me out. I am unsure if a psyker can mix and match powers from his codex with random generated powers. Can you, for example, keep catalyst and roll for 2 powers from biomancy, telekinesis or telepathy? Or do you have to either use all you powers from the codex OR the randomly generated powers from the disciplines your army knows?


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## Lucius Vane

Zarenkenial said:


> I also have a question for anyone who can help me out. I am unsure if a psyker can mix and match powers from his codex with random generated powers. Can you, for example, keep catalyst and roll for 2 powers from biomancy, telekinesis or telepathy? Or do you have to either use all you powers from the codex OR the randomly generated powers from the disciplines your army knows?


It's either all from the codex or all from the new disciplines.


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## Topknot11

Man i am really glad I posed this question? After reading the rules more I have tO say i am more optimistic about the future of the nids and think, i believe these rules have levled the field a bit more for them actually.


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## Vaz

Santaire said:


> I have to say, you're worried about nids dying out? Have you seen the fricking Doom of Malantai? It brings a whole new meaning to the word overpowered. You've never seen a truly terrifying tyranid army have you? Most people who play them now just go straight for the horde. Have they not seen the potential of the 9 man army? :ireful2:
> 
> I've got a mate who plays with that and he's only lost one battle with them so far as I know. And that was against my brother's ork tank army. 2 battlewagons, a looted tank, 20 ard boys and 5 meganobs, all within 1000 points. Another seemingly unbeatable army. As I know quite well :headbutt:


Tell him to face Elysians at 1,500 with their 8 flyers and bazillion tl flying lascannons/punisher cannons, hitting with bs4. Nidsweakness is flyers capable of countering their own, as harpies are the only currently really affective and cheap way of taking on enemy air. Vendettas and Stormtalons rape Harpies like a white girl in harlem.


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## paolodistruggiuova

I think the biggest nerf for Nids is the nerf to their troops, Termagants lost I4 and now they get beaten pretty badly from marines before they can attack, FnP at 5+ means they'll die easier vs regular str4 CC attacks. Hormas out of synapse are slightly better but still they arent a troop for objective camping. Genos cant assault the turn they comes in and are so easy to be shot off the board.

The rest of the army doesnt suffer too bad, hive guards, Flyrant, Gargolles and Zoan are all better now while some other units are slightly worse but the big problem is now that nids troops, while slightly subpar in 5th, are now severly underpowered.

About Harpies they have a big issue imo...the quod cannon! S7 vs T5, AP4 vs 4+ save, 4 TL attacks vs 4 wounds...see a pattern there?

1 Quod cannon used by a marine (bs4) cause on average 3wounds before cover saves, that's 2 wounds if you do the ''jump down'' thing (i dont know the english name) but you cant shoot at all next round, and you have a 55% chance of being grounded (and dead shortly after)

After all Nids are not dead imo, but you'll need to play much more aggressively with your HQ/Elites/Fast/Heavy cause your troops are not as resistent/damaging as in 5th, but since you kill vehicles much better now you should be able to handle it


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## OddJob

paolodistruggiuova said:


> I think the biggest nerf for Nids is the nerf to their troops, Termagants lost I4 and now they get beaten pretty badly from marines before they can attack, FnP at 5+ means they'll die easier vs regular str4 CC attacks. Hormas out of synapse are slightly better but still they arent a troop for objective camping.


Gants are init 4 basic, hormas are init 5. The biggest change is a lack of no retreat wounds which is BRILLIANT for gants of all types. 




paolodistruggiuova said:


> Genos cant assault the turn they comes in and are so easy to be shot off the board.


If any opponents let you assault them straight from outflank you need better opponents. Infiltrating right in an opponents face was/is the way to go, particularly when backed up with flyrant/ymagarl/trygon/mawlocks/gargoyles/raveners on turn two. 



paolodistruggiuova said:


> but the big problem is now that nids troops, while slightly subpar in 5th, are now severly underpowered.


Don't be ridiculous. Nid troops had one issue in 5th, dealing with tanks- that is no longer an issue. How this pans out over 6th ed will be interesting, but nids had some of the best troops in the game in 5th and still look decent in 6th.


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## paolodistruggiuova

OddJob said:


> Gants are init 4 basic, hormas are init 5. The biggest change is a lack of no retreat wounds which is BRILLIANT for gants of all types.


Oh sorry i played vs Nids yesterday and my friend used i3 for his assaulting gants so i thought that was it 
The lack of no retreat is really good for CC, they still lost some survivability to small fire shooting for the FnP change but it's not as bad as i thought.




OddJob said:


> If any opponents let you assault them straight from outflank you need better opponents. Infiltrating right in an opponents face was/is the way to go, particularly when backed up with flyrant/ymagarl/trygon/mawlocks/gargoyles/raveners on turn two.


I dont play nids actually, but they are my number 1 opponent and, while i did everything i could to avoid first turn assaults, it was a pain to always be forced to deploy/move to avoid them, now i feel much more confortable in staying near a board edge and wait for them comeing with 2 or 3 units ready to fire and maybe even charge them.
I dont know much about infiltrating genos tbh since he never seems to do that, how can they be better infiltrating then outflanking with the new, safer rules for reserves?
Also i think genos are more of an elite unit in the troop section, they arent supposed to hold objectives imo, they assault, mince and repeat till they are dead, the objective holding is just a bonus since you cant rely on them surviving enemy shooting, am i wrong?



OddJob said:


> Don't be ridiculous. Nid troops had one issue in 5th, dealing with tanks- that is no longer an issue. How this pans out over 6th ed will be interesting, but nids had some of the best troops in the game in 5th and still look decent in 6th.


Ok maybe i overlooked something here and there :biggrin:
do you think termagants with FC will be so good vs vehicles? or you are referring to hormas? Thanks for your explanation 

PS: i hope you will update your nids tactica sooner or later, it's really a great reading :thank_you:


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## BigD

I'm thinking if you want a fast and flexable assualt army then a Blood Angel Jump pack force is a far better option than Tyranids.


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## OddJob

paolodistruggiuova said:


> I dont know much about infiltrating genos tbh since he never seems to do that, how can they be better infiltrating then outflanking with the new, safer rules for reserves?


They certainly were under the old rules, especially in large broods with FNP. Now the way rules have changed (can't daisy chain out while leaving 50% in cover, cover is generally 5+, FNP is 5+ and overwatch) means that they have lost a lot of their survivability. I'm actually going to try something controversial- a brood in a spod. Dropping right on top of the enemy in area terrain on turn two has potential, especially if they have brought some 4+ cover like an ADL with them.

That being said- I'm not sure stealers are really required anymore. FCing gants can do a number on most vehicles and FNP troops are less tough (that works both ways). Need some real experience to work that out.



paolodistruggiuova said:


> Also i think genos are more of an elite unit in the troop section, they arent supposed to hold objectives imo, they assault, mince and repeat till they are dead, the objective holding is just a bonus since you cant rely on them surviving enemy shooting, am i wrong?


They can do both. Objectives win games.



paolodistruggiuova said:


> do you think termagants with FC will be so good vs vehicles? or you are referring to hormas?


Assuming av10 rear armour:
Gant attack does 1 x 2/3 x 1/6 = 1/9 glancing hits.
So it takes 14 charging gants/gargs or 9 charging hormas to wreck a transport on average (especially cool if they can surround it and kill all the occupants instantly).



paolodistruggiuova said:


> PS: i hope you will update your nids tactica sooner or later, it's really a great reading


I fully intend to, but don't really have enough experience with sixth yet (and I've just started a new job so can't write it up at work...). I have a couple of decent sized tournaments coming up over the next three months so I'll probably start typing up my thoughts after that.


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## MidnightSun

Vaz said:


> Nids weakness is flyers capable of countering their own, as harpies are the only currently really affective and cheap way of taking on enemy air.


Unfortunately, they can't even do that. Firstly, their guns are all Blasts, and secondly, FMCs don't have Skyfire. For enemy Flyers, you best take twin linked Brainleeches on a Hive Tyrant and hope for the best.

Midnight


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## lokis222

i think nids will be as effective as last edition. new issues to deal with, but from what i can see, they are still very good when played right. 

anti flyer is a problem, but i think that it will have to come down to weight of fire and target priority.


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## Mossy Toes

MidnightSun: FAQ changed it so FMCs now have Skyfire.


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## Antonius

Only issue there is, a lot of nid FMCs have BLAST weapons, which can never target flyers.


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