# My theory about the Dark Angels and the Lion's supposed treachery *spoiler alert*



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Hi all,
This is my first post here on HO forums, so please don't hate :biggrin:.

I've been reading alot about your opinions on wether Jonson was traitor or not, and I must disagree with serveral people here.

Firstly, the nature and reason of his percieved betrayal :

In my OPINION ( pleae note the emphasis that it's my opnion, not fact), Lionel Jonson was completely loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor, but the real split happened INSIDE the Legion, not outside it.

Lionel Jonson was a primarch, so when he lived alone in the forests of Caliban, he was the first to learn about the secret of the planet : that it was tainted to the core by Chaos. He also realized the true nature of the beasts of Caliban, and also of the watchers. Living alone amongst chaos-infested forests would surely make anyone paranoid, and as a result, the Lion kept his secrets to himself. 

He grew up beside Luther, and was able to make out the taint of chaos in his mentor which showed in the form of Luther's jealousy towards him and his ambiton. The assassinaton attempt on the Emperor, the one man who he completely trusted didnt help cure his paranoia either. 

Now when he sent Luther back to Caliban, there are 2 possible reasons IMO :

no.1 : he realized that Luther was getting more & more jealous every day, so simply sent him back to keep a distance from him, while sending back those who he felt might betray him along with Luther. While the reserves were stationed at Calban, they would train and recruit more marines and equipment and Luther remains occupied with mundane paperwork etc. Most logical reason for this being that Lion's psychic powers were similar to that of Sanguinius and Kurze, so he foresaw Horus' betrayal and wanted to have a large reserve force ready to strike at Horus when needed. 

And all the while keeping his 2 most trusted agents, Cipher, who was loyal to him and not Luther, to keep the Lupus Knights' records safe and act as a witness and informant to the Emperor about the events on Caliban incase the shit hit the fan. And sending Zahariel, who he believed was completely loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, to keep an eye on Luther and ensure the CHaos entity there canot be controlled by him.

2nd scenario : Lion learns about the atomic bomb incident aboard his ship, is enraged by Luther's near-betrayal, and decides to kill Luthor. Now, simply walking up to Luthr & blowing his head off with a Bolter won't work. So you send him down to Caliban for years at a stretch, with those who would remain faithful to him, and let him amass an army. Let him discover the Chaos daemon on the planet under the watchful eyes of Zahariel and Cipher.

When the heresy is over, return to Caliban where if all went according to plan, Luther has turned traitor, and make war against luther and kill him. When the Emperor asks for an explanation, simply say, " I sent him there to train reserves, but he turns traitor and starts conducting Chaos sorcery. I have Zahariel and Cipher, my 2 trusted agents here as witness to his crimes. When I went back to Caliban to deploy my reserves, Luther and the entire planet attacked me, so I had to kill them all & destroy the planet to wipe the taint off it that Luther created. " That would be explanation enough to do away with a potential traitor in Luther and avoid being labelled traitor due to the faulty nature of the planet he was found on.

I myself believe that selling the siege weapons to perturabo was a huge mistake, just an accident that would make Lion say " oh shit, WTF was I thinking by giving him the cannons".

Anyways, sorry for the long post :hang1:, I had to make my opinions clear to you guys somehow lol. 

I will give my opinions on Boreas and Astelan in my next post.


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Now about Boreas and Astelan. 

IMO Astelan never meant to lie. He did not speak one word of lies, simply because he himself was mislead by Luther to such an extent that he himself believed that he was telling the truth and always followed the right path.

And he was never able to "convert" Boreas. Boreas at the end of Angels Of Darkness, in his message to the chapter commanders, simply says that he's had enough of only hunting the fallen all the time and not keeping humanity's well-being as priority no.1.

For example, The Angels of Retribution abandoned the defense of Gatlinghive in order to go capture a Fallen Angel. This is the kind of error that Boreas is talking about. 

The Dark angels in M41 have become so obsessed with hunting down the fallen that they sometimes forget the very reason why they were created, to help humanity when it needs help, not abandon them at the time of need to run after traitors. That is exactly why Boreas sacrfices himself, his squad, the recruits and the chapter gene-seed in order to stop the virus from spreading and killing the population of Piscina V.

That was something you would expect from Uriel Ventris/Ultramarines or the Salamanders, not a Dark Angel, right ? Thats exactly what I'm trying to convey. Boreas was simply stating that the DA chapter started behaving selfishly and weren't keeping the wellfare and safety of humanity in mind, and were busy pursuing their former traitors when they could have been doing much better for the imperium instead.

Whew, well thats it for my opinons on the topic, sorry again for the long posts heh :biggrin:


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> 2nd scenario : Lion learns about the atomic bomb incident aboard his ship, is enraged by Luther's near-betrayal, and decides to kill Luthor. Now, simply walking up to Luthr & blowing his head off with a Bolter won't work. So you send him down to Caliban for years at a stretch, with those who would remain faithful to him, and let him amass an army. Let him discover the Chaos daemon on the planet under the watchful eyes of Zahariel and Cipher.
> 
> When the heresy is over, return to Caliban where if all went according to plan, Luther has turned traitor, and make war against luther and kill him. When the Emperor asks for an explanation, simply say, " I sent him there to train reserves, but he turns traitor and starts conducting Chaos sorcery. I have Zahariel and Cipher, my 2 trusted agents here as witness to his crimes. When I went back to Caliban to deploy my reserves, Luther and the entire planet attacked me, so I had to kill them all & destroy the planet to wipe the taint off it that Luther created. " That would be explanation enough to do away with a potential traitor in Luther and avoid being labelled traitor due to the faulty nature of the planet he was found on.


Hmm I don't really get your reasoning here. Why couldn't Lion simply walk up to Luther and shoot him? He had evidence for attempted Treason and Zaharial as witness to the fact. And even if he didn't nobody apart from a few Calibanite dissidents are going to going really listen. Lion's a Primarch, his legion has one of the most impressive victory tallies in the history of the Crusade (still not sure for definate where they come in a ranking but I suspect they're at least number 3) Luther at the end of the day was just a single enhanced human who from the view of most rode around on Lion's Coat tails. 

I suspect the attitude had Lion blown his head off would have been more along the lines of, "Well he might have helped conquer a planet but he couldn't wrap his head around fighting in a theater of war were so many surpassed him, and it drove him mad with jealousy, leading him to attempt to assassinate The Primarch."


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Hmm I don't really get your reasoning here. Why couldn't Lion simply walk up to Luther and shoot him? He had evidence for attempted Treason and Zaharial as witness to the fact. And even if he didn't nobody apart from a few Calibanite dissidents are going to going really listen. Lion's a Primarch, his legion has one of the most impressive victory tallies in the history of the Crusade (still not sure for definate where they come in a ranking but I suspect they're at least number 3) Luther at the end of the day was just a single enhanced human who from the view of most rode around on Lion's Coat tails.
> 
> I suspect the attitude had Lion blown his head off would have been more along the lines of, "Well he might have helped conquer a planet but he couldn't wrap his head around fighting in a theater of war were so many surpassed him, and it drove him mad with jealousy, leading him to attempt to assassinate The Primarch."


Well just like the Lion, Luther had alot of support amongst the DAs and also back home on Caliban. The people responsible for the assassination plot against the Emperor may have had Luther's support. People also knew that Luther was Lion's mentor and helped him out on Caliban.

Most important reason for this is Lion's paranoia. Even if no one gave a crap about Luther dying, the Lion may have wanted to be 110 % certain that this issue be handled in the most safe way possible. You also have to keep in mind that the Lion does not want the Emperor to know that he knew about Caliban's being tainted by Chaos all along.

On that note, another theory : no.3 : Emperor commanded Lion to do all this to get rid of the planet Caliban, because the taint of Chaos was too strong. They may have planned this from the moment they met each other. But thats stretching the theory a bit too far lol.

Well, these are just my opinions, of course I could be wrong :biggrin:


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Well just like the Lion, Luther had alot of support amongst the DAs and also back home on Caliban. The people responsible for the assassination plot against the Emperor may have had Luther's support. People also knew that Luther was Lion's mentor and helped him out on Caliban.
> 
> Most important reason for this is Lion's paranoia. Even if no one gave a crap about Luther dying, the Lion may have wanted to be 110 % certain that this issue be handled in the most safe way possible. You also have to keep in mind that the Lion does not want the Emperor to know that he knew about Caliban's being tainted by Chaos all along.


Hmm it sounds like a leap to me. And I've heard worse theories. But the idea of the Marines holding more loyalty to Luther than the Lion doesn't make sense to me. Luther had more support amongst the former members of The Order, the Terran born Marines (many of whom taught the young Caliban born Marines more than the order did) didn't really care about him and held Loyalty to the Primarch and the Legion second.


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

The recruits Luther trained could have more loyalty to Luther, seeing as they would never have seen Lion before, and would have been trained by luther for god knows how long.
Also, I'm sure some of the calibanite marines would have allegiances to luther instead of Lion. So it does make sense really.


----------



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

i kind of like the idea that the lion was merely waiting to see who would win the heresy before choosing a side, OR he was loyal to the emperor merely for his own ambitions rather than for the imperium. He probably figured that horus's rebellion would fail and by siding with empy would secure some kind of position after the dust settled.

Perhaps he intended to side with horus but the heresy ended before he was ready to reveal his allegiance. The dark angels were heading to terra like the ultramarines, but like them didnt arrive until it was practically all over.


----------



## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

The simple fact for me is that in my opinion The Lion being a fence sitter makes for a much better, more interesting story with more variety than him just being another loyal Primarch with a few problems in the camp.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

mal310 said:


> The simple fact for me is that in my opinion The Lion being a fence sitter makes for a much better, more interesting story with more variety than him just being another loyal Primarch with a few problems in the camp.


YYeeehhh but he wasn't. 

In Fallen Angels when he learns of the heresy his reaction is more along the lines of, "HA I always knew Horus was a loser! Now I'm gonna kick his ASS!" He's shown to have a genuine hatred of traitors. His one real Hubris is that he honestly believes he would be the better Warmaster and his entire interaction with Perturabo is geared towards that end. 

He gives the Siege guns he recovered from Horus to Perturabo for use in the Istvaan campaign being waged to destroy Horus. His entire reason for doing this is so that when Horus has been destroyed Perturabo will support Lion's claim to the title of Warmaster. He wasn't fence sitting he was willing to take Horus out and take his place at the Emperor's side.


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

The interesting question is :

What is the BIG secret that the DAs are hiding ? There is no way the Lion could ever have told anyone in the DAs that he was going to side with Horus if he won ( if he did ), or that he was a fence-sitter. He did not trust anyone in his legion enough to let them know his true motives.

If the DAs found that he was a fence-sitter or a potential traitor, they would all rebel against him, just like Iacton Qruze and Garviel Loken. And even the M41 DAs would never venerate him ( even the chapter masters ), they would just erase all trace of him and lament their primarch's actions.

But they don't and they still consider him the greatest, so thats a big indicator of his loyalty.

So, what the hell is the big secret all about ? If Lion is loyal, then that means that he must have made a major error/judgement tactically or morally somewhere during the heresy that cost the Imperium and the chapter greatly. Or, the DAs believe that Luther's betrayal should never be known to the Imperium's masses or they would be declared traitor.

Maybe it has something to do with the Emperor and Lion, some conspiracy between them that the DAs believe would not only hurt their chapter, but the entire Imperium and the Emperor himself if it were known.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> The interesting question is :
> 
> What is the BIG secret that the DAs are hiding ?


The Fallen.


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> The Fallen.


Nono, that is the one that is being hidden from the Imperium's masses. The inquisition and other chapters of marines ( including Space Wolves !!! ) know about the fallen.

But there is supposed to be one secret, that only the highest ranking members of the inner circle know about. And one that even US, the PLAYERS and readers of WH40k do not know about. One that would cause insta-damnation for the DAs & their successor chapters and also of the entire Imerium, if it ever got out. There would be nothing mysterious about the DAs if the Players & readers know all their secrets haha.

That's the one I'm talking about


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Nono, that is the one that is being hidden from the Imperium's masses. The inquisition and other chapters of marines ( including Space Wolves !!! ) know about the fallen.


No they don't. The Dark Angels have very carefully kept The Fallen a secret from everybody except the Unforgiven chapters founded on their Gene Seed. The Dark Angels have killed Inquisitors and even other Marines who have found out about it. 

Read the Space Wolf book Sons of Fenris The Space Wolves have literally no idea why the Dark Angels turn up and attack a planet under their protection. They never do find out either. 

Trust me the big secret of the Dark Angels is The Fallen. Nothing else. Even the majority of the Dark Angels don't know about it. They have to be veteran rank or higher to even get the first inkling of the Dark Angels mission. Most think they're just hunting really vile traitors only the Deathwing know the truth.


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I'll have to back coder59 up there. 
I may be incorrect, but I _think_ certain members of the ravenwing may know about the Fallen. But the inner circle and 1st company know about them. 
I think another secret may be about the cells where some fallen, like Luther, are kept. And another secret may be that the Lion is asleep within the rock, not all DA know about that I think.


----------



## VaUgHaNy86 (Aug 4, 2009)

The Ravenwings main mission is to track down The Fallen, they are dispatched at the slightest hint that could lead to finding one of them, the biggest dark secret with regards to the imperium in general is The Fallen, another big secret is that Luther is kept in stasis in The Rock, refusing to repent ranting that The Lion will return and forgive him and a the secret unknown to ALL the DA is that The Lion is being watched over in the deepest recesses of The Rock whilst he slumbers and recovers from his grievous wounds


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Ah ok, thanks for the info there. So the cat's out of the bag then 

Oh well, I guess the DAs still don't lose any of their mystique then. 

I wonder what would happen if Azrael would know abut the Lon, that he's still alive & in the Rock. Would he attack the watchers ? 

And what the hell are those little things anyways ? And who's side are they really on ? They are enemies of Chaos, thats certain after eading Descent Of Angels, but nothing more than that is known.

That itself is a big mystery IMO.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Ah ok, thanks for the info there. So the cat's out of the bag then
> 
> Oh well, I guess the DAs still don't lose any of their mystique then.
> 
> ...


I'm betting Azrael would get himself a big drill and start searching.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord Mephiston said:


> The interesting question is :
> 
> What is the BIG secret that the DAs are hiding ? There is no way the Lion could ever have told anyone in the DAs that he was going to side with Horus if he won ( if he did ), or that he was a fence-sitter. He did not trust anyone in his legion enough to let them know his true motives.
> 
> ...


It's not very exciting, but if you ignore all the conspiracy theory stuff and accept the most straightforward story, the big secret is the shame of having a good chunk of your legion including your best friend betraying you and the Imperium.

Which doesn't seem like the biggest deal 10k years on when you consider the number of chapters that have defected since that are successor chapters of the likes of the Ultramarines.


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Anyone have any idea on what those little hooded things are anyways ? Are they aliens ? Are they ethereal spirits ? or are they warp based entities manipulating the DAs to serve their own ends ?


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I posted my post above thinking i was responding to the most recent post, but it was just the last post on page 1 .. duhhh, my head hurts



Lord Mephiston said:


> Anyone have any idea on what those little hooded things are anyways ? Are they aliens ? Are they ethereal spirits ? or are they warp based entities manipulating the DAs to serve their own ends ?


I like to think that it is an explanation for where the midgets whose names begin with S went to.

But, popular speculation points towards them being part of the Cabal featured prominantly in Legion.


----------



## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> YYeeehhh but he wasn't.


Yyeeeahhh but unless you happen to be Alan Merritt that is your opinion and not fact. :so_happy:


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

mal310 said:


> Yyeeeahhh but unless you happen to be Alan Merritt that is your opinion and not fact. :so_happy:


It's not really a point of debate anymore. Lion wasn't a fence sitter. He was active and fighting against Horus.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord Mephiston said:


> In my OPINION ( pleae note the emphasis that it's my opnion, not fact), Lionel Jonson was completely loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor, but the real split happened INSIDE the Legion, not outside it..


Put Angels of Darkness aside and that is the only interpretation. Personally, i think the HH events could play out in such a way that what Astellan says in Angels of Darkness are his completely 'true' series of events from his PoV, but obviously incorrect nonetheless.



Lord Mephiston said:


> Now when he sent Luther back to Caliban, there are 2 possible reasons IMO :
> 
> no.1 : he realized that Luther was getting more & more jealous every day, so simply sent him back to keep a distance from him, while sending back those who he felt might betray him along with Luther. While the reserves were stationed at Calban, they would train and recruit more marines and equipment and Luther remains occupied with mundane paperwork etc. Most logical reason for this being that Lion's psychic powers were similar to that of Sanguinius and Kurze, so he foresaw Horus' betrayal and wanted to have a large reserve force ready to strike at Horus when needed.
> 
> ...


I don't think the Lion saw the HH in advance. I'm also not sure where you get the information that Sanguinius did (or whether you are just referring to his psychic powers in general rather than foresight).

The reason for the Lion sending Luthur back to Caliban is simple. The Lion wanted a trusted friend in charge of the recruitment and training process.

If the Lion knew that Luthur had done anything to endanger him there is no way he would send him off to Caliban to take such a significant role.

In hindsight the Lion should have just made him a commander of one of the legion divisions and sent him off to become his own man. It would have given him glory and took him out of the Lion's shadow.

Unfortunately (and this is the real reason things went wrong), the Lion is not just a master tactician with the combat skills. He is also naive and out of touch with the desires and needs of his troops/friends. This is probably due to his youth in the wilderness and lack of contact with people.

Others have touched on this side of the Lion.



Lord Mephiston said:


> I myself believe that selling the siege weapons to perturabo was a huge mistake, just an accident that would make Lion say " oh shit, WTF was I thinking by giving him the cannons".


This is another incident that reveals how easily the Lion is played. 

Purturabo massages his ego saying 'you should have been the warmaster'

Lion gives him the weapons without batting an eyelid.

Obviously, P was still thought loyal at that point, but still.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> It's not really a point of debate anymore. Lion wasn't a fence sitter. He was active and fighting against Horus.


There is nothing you can say that will deter the conspirisists in this regard. There is evidence to suggest he was a fence-sitter, there is evidence to suggest he was firmly loyal to the Emperor. This is the way I imagine GW and BL want to keep it.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is nothing you can say that will deter the conspirisists in this regard. There is evidence to suggest he was a fence-sitter, there is evidence to suggest he was firmly loyal to the Emperor. This is the way I imagine GW and BL want to keep it.


The only evidence we've seen that Lion was a fence sitter is the account of one of the fallen who we learn in Fallen Angels was sent back to Caliban before the heresy began. It's reasonable to assume that any information he had of Lion's actions during the Heresy came from Luther. 
Meanwhile we ourselves get a direct look at what Lion was up too. And he certainly wasn't sitting on the fence. 

SO while yes in one book a character with questionable motives called Lion a fence sitter. While in another book we see those characters claims proven false by Lion taking action to assist in Horus defeat at Istvaan V.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> The only evidence we've seen that Lion was a fence sitter is the account of one of the fallen who we learn in Fallen Angels was sent back to Caliban before the heresy began. It's reasonable to assume that any information he had of Lion's actions during the Heresy came from Luther.
> Meanwhile we ourselves get a direct look at what Lion was up too. And he certainly wasn't sitting on the fence.
> 
> SO while yes in one book a character with questionable motives called Lion a fence sitter. While in another book we see those characters claims proven false by Lion taking action to assist in Horus defeat at Istvaan V.


Well if you take into account that the Lion has never been a straight forward primarch to others especially his brothers(Very much like betraying russ Leman Russ in the Crimson Fortress), I hardly can see that him giving siege engines (that were also used against the emperor) to Perturabo to defend the Imperium against Horus as an actual account that we have first hand knowledge of what the Lion was up to during the heresy. If anything, it could be another account of the Lion's paranoia and scheming.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Very much like betraying russ Leman Russ in the Crimson Fortress


He didn't betray Russ though.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

betray/used, if someone used your legion as cannon fodder I'd think of it as betrayal of trust between brothers; therefore an untrusting brother. But hey... thats just my opinion, I do know a lot of people who are more forgiving than I am. Even Russ seemed to put his guard down as a brotherly jester to Lion El Johnson.


----------



## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> It's reasonable to assume that any information he had of Lion's actions during the Heresy came from Luther. QUOTE]
> 
> Never assume anything. The fact is The Lion's real motives are unknown and may never be clarified. Just because he took part in a minor skirmish with a small number of his marines and then supplied weapons of mass destruction to a traitor Primarch, for me, does not prove his loyalty beyond doubt.
> 
> ...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> It's not really a point of debate anymore. Lion wasn't a fence sitter. He was active and fighting against Horus.


Interestingly _The First Heretic_ adds more fuel to the fire by subtly grouping the Lion with the traitor Primarchs. In a vision which shows the Primarchs' capsules landing on their homeworlds and the young lords emerging, only the traitor Primarchs are shown, but also the Lion.

Here is what ADB had to say on the matter over on the Bolthole:



ADB said:


> For kicks, here's the order the pods come down:
> 
> The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place.
> 
> Basically, the Traitor Primarchs - in Legion order - and the Lion as well, perhaps reflecting the lore that he may or may not have been wavering in his loyalties, at least in the eyes of the Chaos Gods.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats very interesting. I think that would perhaps be interesting to see that the Dark Angels were able to save themselves from completely turning against the Imperium.


----------



## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> betray/used, if someone used your legion as cannon fodder I'd think of it as betrayal of trust between brothers; therefore an untrusting brother. But hey... that's just my opinion, I do know a lot of people who are more forgiving than I am. Even Russ seemed to put his guard down as a brotherly jester to Lion El Johnson.


you might want to check your facts on that one... According to the 2nd ed codex the lion carefully planed an assault for the morning and the wolf stormed the enemy at night b4 the assault was to begin. When it was over the DA got there to the wolfs having already attacked, the lion marched up to Russ and started yelling at him for not waiting. They got in a fight for 2 days strait then the wolf started laughing at how stupid they were acting and the lion knocked him out cold. The DA then left to continue there campaign.

If anything Russ and his werewolf mutant marines are the ones that betrayed the lion by assaulting when they agreed to assault in the morning.


Oh and just a word about the Dark Angels being corrupted by chaos... they are the only un-mutated legion. They still have all of there original implants and organs, no even the Ultra marines can claim that, and certainly not Russ's barbaric half wolf chaos spawn of a legion.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Azrell said:


> Oh and just a word about the Dark Angels being corrupted by chaos... they are the only un-mutated legion. They still have all of there original implants and organs, no even the Ultra marines can claim that, and certainly not Russ's barbaric half wolf chaos spawn of a legion.


What's wrong with the Ultramarine geneseed? I don't think the high lords would continue using predominantly their geneseed when founding new chapters if it wasn't the best available (except for the Grey Knights obviously but they're a special case). Also, as far as I know the White Scars have no inherent flaws in the their geneseed. Some would argue that their love of speed (woo hoo, space marine speed freakz) and spontaneously agressive personalities is caused by their geneseed but that's highly debatable. And for the Iron Hands, you can't really say coz' they end up being more machine than man in anyways (maybe that's their way of hiding any flaws). As for the Dark Angels, yes all their implants still work but aren't their marines supposed to have a shorter average lifespan than those of other chapters?


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Azrell said:


> you might want to check your facts on that one... According to the 2nd ed codex the lion carefully planed an assault for the morning and the wolf stormed the enemy at night b4 the assault was to begin. When it was over the DA got there to the wolfs having already attacked, the lion marched up to Russ and started yelling at him for not waiting. They got in a fight for 2 days strait then the wolf started laughing at how stupid they were acting and the lion knocked him out cold. The DA then left to continue there campaign.


Oh I did.:grin: According to the most *current *edition to the wolves. 



> According to legend, it was during the Horus Heresy that the two Chapters met for the first time. The Space Wolves maintain that it was Lion El' Johnson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, who began the feud with the Space Wolves. It was upon the world of Dulan where the two Chapters came to blows. It is said that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were fighting alongside each other to depose the Tyrant Durath when, suddenly and without warning, El' Johnson broke ranks and led his Dark Angels into the attack against the Tyrant's fortress. The Space Wolves found their flank unprotected, and many warriors were slain when the enemy counter-attacked. More galling to the prideful Leman Russ was the fact that the Dark Angels swept all before them and easily won the battle.


-Space Wolf Codex page 46

Though they are both bias sources, I'd ask for a similar direct quote. And I'd let people judge which one has better detail and content. Also the current fluff on both editions play a part as well. Your better off using any fluff on the earlier DA codex.




Azrell said:


> Oh and just a word about the Dark Angels being corrupted by chaos... they are the only un-mutated legion. They still have all of there original implants and organs, no even the Ultra marines can claim that, and certainly not Russ's barbaric half wolf chaos spawn of a legion.


Firstly, the Dark Angels do not have a legion. And secondly, you can't know that. You have the fallen Dark Angels for one. Lastly, the Ultramarines have no known fallen brothers from their chapter. This is pointed out/hinted in _Skull Harvest_.

In Huron's tournament _Skull Harvest_ page 26


> The emissary led them down this gauntlet of warriors and Honsou saw, Salamanders, Night Lords, Space Wolves, *Dark Angels*, Flesh Tearers, Iron Hands and a dozen other chapters. He noted with grim amusement that no Ultramarines made up these warriors' numbers and doubted that any of Macragge's finest would be found in this garrison.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

The Space Wolves may have been barbaric to those less enlightened marines but their ferocity in battle with exception to maybe pre heresy World Eaters and Lunar Wolves, and thier honour is still matched against any. Russ was more intelligent then some gave him credit for but he was the Emperoros dog of war whenever he needed the dirty work doing he unleashed the savage wolves but that does not make Russ and his sons any less intelligent. The Dark Angels in my humble opinion have way too many secrets and if they are willing to abandon the IG to go hunt for Fallen and not give a damn about the fate of the ones they have been asked to back up then i would rather throw my lot in with the Space Wolves any day of the week.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Lastly, the Ultramarines have no known fallen brothers from their chapter. This is pointed out/hinted in _Skull Harvest_.
> 
> In Huron's tournament _Skull Harvest_ page 26


Really? i find that hard to believe. One of the things that is emphasised so much about eh Grey Knights its that none of their number have ever fallen to chaos and that this is a unique feat. I find it hard to believe that the Ultramarines have never had a single brother turn go renegade or fall to chaos.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Really? i find that hard to believe. One of the things that is emphasised so much about eh Grey Knights its that none of their number have ever fallen to chaos and that this is a unique feat. I find it hard to believe that the Ultramarines have never had a single brother turn go renegade or fall to chaos.


I'd go with a more logical conclusion in that the Ultramarines chapter is more involved in their own front than the eye of terror. Perhaps this maybe a partial reasoning. But according to Honsou, and the current fluff, there hasn't been an Ultramarine that has turned to chaos. Note that it probably is possible. The Son's of Guilliman chapter finally got corrupted.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I'd go with a more logical conclusion in that the Ultramarines chapter is more involved in their own front than the eye of terror. Perhaps this maybe a partial reasoning. But according to Honsou, and the current fluff, there hasn't been an Ultramarine that has turned to chaos. Note that it probably is possible. The Son's of Guilliman chapter finally got corrupted.


I believe it just means there were no former Ultramarines amongst the Red Corsairs and the traitors who assembled, I know the Ultramarines have fallen because in a couple of the earlier short stories compilation it mentions a former Ultramarine who is a Champion of Khorne and then there's the story with the Ultramarine and the Sister of Battle where the Ultramarine is corrupted and becomes a Champion of Nurgle.


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I believe it just means there were no former Ultramarines amongst the Red Corsairs and the traitors who assembled, I know the Ultramarines have fallen because in a couple of the earlier short stories compilation it mentions a former Ultramarine who is a Champion of Khorne and then there's the story with the Ultramarine and the Sister of Battle where the Ultramarine is corrupted and becomes a Champion of Nurgle.


Where can I find these stories? I'm interested!


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Christ I don't know if both stories are in the same compilation but they're likely contained in either _Dark Imperium_, _Let the Galaxy Burn_, or _Deathwing_.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Azrell said:


> Oh and just a word about the Dark Angels being corrupted by chaos... they are the only un-mutated legion. They still have all of there original implants and organs, no even the Ultra marines can claim that, and certainly not Russ's barbaric half wolf chaos spawn of a legion.


 
On this point im suprised no one else has pointed out this, but how does that make them any less corruptable? I seem to remember a good deal of Dark Angels turning to chaos, and that applies for either of the two DA factions depending on who you want to believe(fallen or loyalists). Then theres the other 9 legions who al still had intact gene seed when they turned to chaos. So yeah, fail to see how the purity of the gene seed has anything to do with corruptability


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I didn't bother responding because it's getting tiresome replying to people who are so obviously wrong.

The Ultramarines have the purest Geneseed, the White Scars, Dark Angels, and Iron Hands Geneseeds are also notably mutation free but because of the various psychological issues that seem to 'breed' true in each of those Chapter's Successors (even if it's the civilisations the chapters come from rather than the geneseed itself) the latter 3 are used far less oftenly than Guilliman's contribution. The Dark Angels are known for their secrecy and paranoia, of course the High Lords don't know that this is due to the secrets they carry regarding Caliban but when every single DA derived Chapter seems to have those traits the Lords of terra can be forgiven for thinking it's genetic, and it's not a desirable set of traits in future Astartes.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i agree baron if i were a high lord and i had a choice between the purity (ugh) of the Ultrasmurfs and the paranoia of the Dark Angels i know what i would choose. so i can see why it is that the UMs have a large successor chapters and i have a feeling that those Chapters with unknown founders and the like are more then likely Ultramarine based


----------



## Unforgiven (Apr 5, 2009)

That's the whole point of their secret, if anyone besides the most trusted of the Dark Angels knew the secret they would be labeled traitors as a whole chapter. That is why they go to such extents as abandoning battles & allies to capture a Fallen. 

Also, The Lion & Russ we're best friends after they beat each other


----------



## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I didn't bother responding because it's getting tiresome replying to people who are so obviously wrong.
> 
> The Ultramarines have the purest Geneseed, the White Scars, Dark Angels, and Iron Hands Geneseeds are also notably mutation free but because of the various psychological issues that seem to 'breed' true in each of those Chapter's Successors (even if it's the civilisations the chapters come from rather than the geneseed itself) the latter 3 are used far less oftenly than Guilliman's contribution. The Dark Angels are known for their secrecy and paranoia, of course the High Lords don't know that this is due to the secrets they carry regarding Caliban but when every single DA derived Chapter seems to have those traits the Lords of terra can be forgiven for thinking it's genetic, and it's not a desirable set of traits in future Astartes.


Hate to break it to yeah, but according to every DA codex ever written, they have the purest gene seed. 10,000 years and they are still as the emperor made them.

The Emperor on the other hand didn't make the humans that the gene seed went into, that's the DAs shame. That they let unworthy into there chapter.

The DAs are also the only chapter to have ever requested a new chapter be founded out of there stock on Terra, and it was granted. It is worth considering that the DAs may not want any more chapters created until they correct the mistakes they made with the original ones.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Azrell said:


> Hate to break it to yeah, but according to every DA codex ever written, they have the purest gene seed. 10,000 years and they are still as the emperor made them.


So too is every single chapter the good baron named. Are you deficient? Did you not read what he wrote? As far as their gene-seed goes they are pure, but they are all so fucked up, psychologically, that the high lords don't trust them and believe something to be wrong with them.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

there is probably one chapter the high lords will trust one hundred percent and that would be the boys in blue and thats how it will stay like it or not


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't know I think the Imperial Fists have the respect of the High Lords as much as the Ultramarines- you've got to remember that the Ultramarines are the most influential Chapter amongst other Astartes, but it's the Imperial Fists who currently enjoy the greatest regard amongst the myriad institutions of the Imperium. Note it's the Imperial Fists alone, not their successors- probably accounts why despite the standing the IF have their geneseed is used relatively little in the Founding of new Chapters.

A Dark Angels Supreme Grand Master petitioned the High Lords of Terra to found a new chapter based on Lion El'Jonson's geneseed- they granted his request, but don't read too much into that, the High Lords will found new Chapters based on which ever geneseed they wish and the DA have no control over that.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

didn't know that one baron thanks for the fill in


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

First and foremost, the Lion never betrayed Leman Russ. The original story, which is much more detailed than the deliberate throw-away in the latest Space Wolf Codex, is still available in various forums.

The gist is that Russ took umbrage to the fact that he was mocked by said Tyrant (he was called the Emperor's lap-dog) and vowed to exact vengeance. The Lion, never the most sensitive individual, went ahead and planned his own assault. He attacked in the morning, and reached the Tyrant's fortifications ahead of the Wolves--with only his Legion at his disposal, it should be noted, and not by using the Wolves as fodder. Russ is described as howling in fury as the Lion kills the Tyrant. He later confronts El'Jonson, who is hardly apologetic. Russ strikes him; a brawl ensues and results in a draw, ending only with Russ laughing at the absurdity of the situation. The Lion, who apparently didn't get the joke, decked Russ and knocked him out. By the time Russ came to, the Dark Angels had already departed the planet.

Second of all, we have the ideas of the Lion as (A) traitor to the Imperium and (B) traitor to Caliban.

Before getting into all that, though, I'd like to offer something regarding his character.

The driving factor behind the Lion's mysterious/secretive demeanor can be directly traced back to Astellan ("Angels of Darkness") and indirectly to his origins.

Now, we can find two other Primarchs who somewhat share the Lion's situation upon arriving at a homeworld: the Night Haunter and Leman Russ himself.

The Night Haunter tragically became what he was largely because of the predatory, criminal conditions of his adopted homeworld... but mostly because he grew up alone and without any sort of upbringing to impart to him a proper moral compass. As a result, Night Haunter employed horrific means to achieve "moral" ends.

Leman Russ also grew up in a deadly, predatory world, but unlike the Haunter he benefited from a familial unit (the wolf-mother and her cubs) who, if nothing else, imparted on him the concepts of familial love, pack-driven dependence, etc. Leman Russ was widely considered a savage and barbarian (little surprise there), but he nonetheless managed to incorporate himself as a working member of human society. He was not so isolated and alienated as a result of his upbringing as to be incompatible to Humanity.

Lion El'Jonson, on the other hand, is the middle ground between the two. Like Haunter, he spent his early years utterly alone and in a brutal environment. Like Russ, however, he was eventually found and adopted. He never became a sociopath like Haunter, but he also does not seem to have taken completely to the broader society of man. That doesn't make him a pariah or a misanthrope; quite the opposite, we see examples of him genuinely seeking to ingratiate himself to others, to make humor, etc. He simply doesn't *click*.

One person seems to get the Lion, and vice versa. Tragically, that same person, his best (and, really, only) friend attempts to assassinate him. Heavily or not, it is implied that the Lion realizes the truth of his near-death (in "Descent of Angels") and Luther's exile is a result of that.

Why exile and not execution? Well, the answer to that is twofold.
1. The Lion is not inhuman. If he knew that Luther came close to killing him, he also knew that, in the end, _he didn't._ He couldn't bring himself to kill the one man he had ever called friend. Zahariel's unstated vouching of Luther, and his latter demonstration of unconditional loyalty (fighting against a fierce daemon alongside the Lion) would only weigh in favorably on that difficult decision.
2. The Lion is not stupid. Luther is _the second most important person on Caliban_. Revealing to his Legion that this august hero was an almost-traitor and murderer would cripple morale. Furthermore, if he _is_ repentant, and he _is_ (or was) your best friend, would it not be better to send him home and at least get something out of him?

With that, my thoughts on the Lion as a traitor.

Where the idea of the Lion as Betrayer of the Imperium is concerned, I just don't see where this idea has merit given what we know now ("Fallen Angels"). Whatever the Lion's insinuated character flaws*, it is abundantly clear that he is fiercely opposed to the idea of treason. Whatever his ambitions, it is apparent that he was unwilling to act on them until his superior (Horus) forfeited his station by turning against the Imperium.

* Given the consistent awe, reverence, and fear Astartes demonstrate toward their Primarchs (and those of other Legions), I have found it humorous that so many were quick to assume the Lion incapable of character judgement than Zahariel** of being incapable of "reading" the Lion.

** And remember, Nemiel is younger by at least a century and a half than more experienced Astartes, such as Loken and Garro, who have spent that much more time around their respective Primarchs.

Where the idea of the Lion as Betrayer of Caliban is concerned? I think there is more room for speculation here.

First, I don't think Cypher was part of any sort of master plan. The Lion undoubtedly had his interest piqued by what he found in the Lupus stronghold's libraries, and it would have been only logical for him to recruit a survivor of that order to enhance his understanding of treatises, theories and records that he himself didn't write.

Second, I don't think Zahariel was sent back as anything more than one more unstated exile. He demonstrated his loyalty fighting alongside the Lion, but his unwillingness to state the conspiracy Luther had embarked in was a crime, period. There had to be some punishment, and even Zahariel offers the thought that he might be on Caliban on account of this.

Third, I don't see a link between the happenings on Caliban and any insidious ploy on the part of the Lion. It is qualified that what is happening on that planet, decades after his joining the Great Crusade, is a clear departure from the "normal" deadly happenings on Caliban. Furthermore, we must remember that, during "Fallen Angels", it is revealed that Luther is actively suppressing reports of the insurgency against his regime, of the losses of life, the miserable conditions at the Arcologies, etc.

I think it's far more likely that Cypher, the "expert" on the research the Knights of Lupus had undertaken to begin with, decides to act on his own. The true wild-card, he steers Luther to a course of action he _thinks_ will be beneficial to the planet: a course that would see him use Warp-driven powers to somehow suppress the taint of Chaos on Caliban. He is obviously poorly mistaken, but his ideas are hardly unique in the milieu of this fictional universe.

Luther will be corrupted, as will most (?) of his followers. When the time comes, they will turn against the returning Dark Angels, and be scattered throughout space and time. Some will become Chaos Space Marines, others masterless men, and still others will repent and seek redemption. Cypher might fall under one of those categories; or be something altogether different. Personally, I don't think he's trying to get to the Emperor; I think he's trying to get the Lion Sword to the Lion himself.

I like the theory above because it not only keeps to what has been revealed to us (and not just the ramblings of a Chaos-warped traitor who never qualifies his positions or offers any proof, but rather offers yet another accusation... again without proof); it also keeps to the idea of the tragic story.

Luther himself is the quintessential tragic hero, and if it weren't for the need to keep as many secrets as possible in this story, the entire saga of the Dark Angels would have been better told predominately over his shoulder (much like the first three books were over Loken's). His love for his world, his ambition, his near-betrayal, his desire to redeem himself, and his final--colossal, yet still pure-hearted--error in allying himself with unknown powers to save his world... That's a story that needed to be told.

Zahariel is a poor, distant second by contrast (IMHO). He simply doesn't strike me as sympathetic or convincing. He is indecisive to such an extreme that it almost shouts to me that he acts thus simply to ensure that he is around to continue serving as narrator to us (by not rocking the boat).

The Lion is still an interesting character, but he could never be the protagonist for the same reason that Horus, Dorn, etc., couldn't. They are literally superhuman intellects--we, as flawed people can convey the scope of their being, perhaps, but we can't accurately portray their genius and thinking capacity. It took a genius of science fiction to approximate how such a being might think--see the "Dune" series. Even those very talented authors who attempted to follow him offered only hollow echoes of the personalities he penned.

Yes, he has a role to play, but his primary one isn't to betray the Imperium (that being Horus' tragic fall); it's to set in motion a more intimate betrayal. His failure to neither outright condemn or wholly forgive his best friend is what leads to all this... and yet what we have read has never explored this aspect of his person.

I'm rambling! Apologies.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

+rep for that post, very well thought out and presented. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said, i just can't see the Lion being a traitor either, i just hope the HH series will end the speculation once and for all


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks!

One more thing, regarding Geneseed purity.

I don't think Ultramarine Geneseed is more pure than that of the Dark Angels, or vice-versa. You either have pure Geneseed, or you don't.

Where the Imperium is concerned, though, and the idealization of Astartes that pervades it as well, it is easy to see why Ultramarine Geneseed would be held in higher regard. The Ultramarines maintain a sterling reputation, and are widely-known as the masters of a comparative utopia. The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are secretive and not nearly as attached to the Humanity they serve.

That has nothing to do with Geneseed, though... at least not Geneseed purity. It has everything to do with Astartes society and how it perpetuates itself.

The Ultramarines and Salamanders, for instance, enjoy their favored reputations largely because they perpetuate themselves as an extension of a human society. They act as defenders, teachers, mentors, ideals, etc. Their relationship with said societies maintains within their ranks their own ideals of protecting and helping Mankind.

Dark Angel society, on the other hand, exists largely separate from Humanity. It thus perpetuates apart from humans, human concerns, responsibility for humans, etc. The driving need of the Dark Angels (aside from "serving the Emperor" or what have you) isn't protecting Ultramar or Nocturne, preserving the "good" culture and society and defending their legacy of ten millennia. It's hunting down their own treacherous brethren and preserving their shameful secret. They live in an artificial society that doesn't act or grow along truly societal lines.

It's no wonder Azrael is mentioned as an anomaly for his charisma and forthright manner.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Exactly! That was the point I was trying to get across, hopefully because you've now said it we won't have someone come along and ignore everything I've posted...horrible thought has just occurred, I wonder if I'm on someone's 'Ignore' List and that's why they never acknowledge anything I post.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I hope that's not the case. At the end of the day, we're just trading opinions on a fictional universe.

... And there's nothing to be won by simply ignoring your heretical notions regarding the Legio I!


----------



## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

very interesting all the last post. I hope the topic continue like this. 

And I hope GW continue the story in a good way...

In my opinion I don´t think Dark Angels players will like if GW decide that Lion was a traitor and I think is time to discover or advance a little in the Dark Angels story...


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I just hope the HH series will end the speculation once and for all


You should read the _First Heretic_, there's a bit in there that might make you disappointed.



> In my opinion I don´t think Dark Angels players will like if GW decide that Lion was a traitor and I think is time to discover or advance a little in the Dark Angels story...


I don't know about that. Its a piece of fluff probably not in the codex and let for fans to find out if they are ever interested. What matters is that they are allies of the Imperium now.


----------



## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

sorry I wrote it bad. I wanted to say won't like that is a traitor. xD


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Exactly! That was the point I was trying to get across, hopefully because you've now said it we won't have someone come along and ignore everything I've posted...horrible thought has just occurred, I wonder if I'm on someone's 'Ignore' List and that's why they never acknowledge anything I post.



Sometimes we just do it for shits and giggles.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

there will be those who say the lion was on the verge, those that say he wasn't but then thats what this wonderful universe we love is all about, who didwhat to who and why and who might have done what to who and when. Phoebus although i firmly believe the lion was a fence sitter that was one hell of a post and u sir have my utmost respect for a well put theory.
Baron, i respect your views may not always agree but they seem to come from a knowledge that expands even mine.
at the end of the day we all love this hobby and we all strive to make it so mch more then what it is if that is possile. so let people believe what they will thats what makes it al the more fun...and breed the paranoia mwah ha ha ha


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks gothik- the reason I never espouse a view on the Lion's loyalties is that I just don't have enough information to make a reasoned, educated guess.

Gotta maintain some sort of reliability for people so I avoid those topics that I'm really unsure on (yup that's why you won't find me posting in *every* 40k Fluff thread).


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

yourwelcome and i am sure that at some point the gods in the hallowed halls of Black Library and GW will come up with a final explination that will please some, won't please others but hey they cannot please everyone all the time. 
ihave the dark angel codex, the newer one and although i am not a fan of the DA (I Find them a little too secretive for my liking) the fact that IMHO one book, Angels of Darkness, my favourite ever gav thorpe novel caused so much specultion from one sentance.."he was waiting to see who won" is testermount itself to the fact that the first leigon alone have a huge following, good or bad and wether that will be taken as cannon or retconed after the HH series is finished remains to be seen, but Gav Thorpe sure put one hornets nest out and i love him for it,


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gothik said:


> and i am sure that at some point the gods in the hallowed halls of Black Library and GW will come up with a final explination that will please some, won't please others but hey they cannot please everyone all the time.


Personally I very much doubt that the issue of the Lion's loyalty will ever be undoubtedly resolved. It would take away so much of Jonson's character and mystery, and remove a fair bit of speculation that BL and GW love to inject into it's fanbase.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To play a little Devil's Advocate against myself...

I don't think anything thus far has shown the Lion to be a fence-sitter or disloyal. I think, if anything, it has shown that--within the context of his firm loyalty--he has been shown to be brilliant (intelligence-wise), ruthless (to enemies and traitors), and pragmatic (in planning, in approach to things).

I think a lot of folks looked to "Fallen Angels" for evidence of fence-sitting, but I'd wager it's the next novel that will show which way the Lion will go. We've seen how the Lion has reacted to treason and traitors when it appeared to be a massive stab in the back by just four Legions... Let's see what his reaction will be after Isstvan. The Lion may genuinely hate Horus and his lackeys, but the conditions that shaped his upbringing and character may very well determine that it's more pragmatic to see what happens when it comes to light that the rebellion is far more widespread.

Again, for myself, I don't think the Lion will be either a fence-sitter or a traitor. I think in the end Astellan will have twisted his tragic error (Lion giving the siege guns to Perturabo) and the time he needed to spend gathering his Legion into his theory of treason. But we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

The one thing in determining whether the Lion is a traitor or not, or the biggest evidence in my eyes is that the watchers seem to be protecting him. Now in the first book, they say something about "evil." They also say that they are sure the Zahariel will fight this evil after he swears he will. I think if the Lion's "treachery" will be resolved, it will be due to the Heresy showing what side Zahariel choses.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I just can't see it. Like Phobeus was saying, his actions in Fallen Angels just don't seem to indicate in any sort of way that he is a traitor


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

... A hybrid theory. Perhaps Perturabo really intended to ally himself with Lion El Johnson when the Lion and his legion arrived at Terra. One of the reasons is because there is hardly any evidence that Perturabo and his Iron Warriors were besieging Terra anyway. At least _Collected Visions_ has no recollection of it. I could see the Lion being so arrogant coming as the hero with Perturabo at his side. Besides, the Iron Warriors are a legion that came out of the siege better than most legions. 

The only problem with this theory is that there is evidence that the Iron Warriors were fighting against the Imperial Fists in space and I guess that little fluff in Index Astartes. But either way, I don't think its ever said how they were assaulting Terra. They could have very well been on their ships for all we know, bombing and destroying from there. 

The last part of _Fallen Angels_, where the Lion asks if Perturabo would give him the support when the time comes puzzles me. Why you ask? Well first of all, Rogal Dorn is the commander of the Emperor's armies. I think the Lion is wise enough to know that the Emperor isn't just going to take that away from him and tell the Lion he can be warmaster. So it seems that in someway the Lion is doing something sketchy. Secondly, Perturabo is not a favored son by the Emperor. You can even go and say that, well at least he is getting support from one legion. Well... who cares what Perturabo has to say? Obviously the Emperor demonstrated this when he assigned Perturabo with crappy world garrison duty. 

So it seems that both the Lion and Perturabo both have a reason to get Dorn out of the picture. It does say that Perturabo took a perverse pleasure at looking at Dorn's wall crumble. The question is, why he didn't do it himself? If you get what I'm getting at, could it be at all possible that Perturabo thought he could win favor by being a "double agent" when the Lion came? He wasn't expending his force on the Walls of Terra so both legions at full strength. But the Lion... never came.


Edit: Extra thought. It also seems that the taking of the siege weapons is kind of weird. As though it was planned out by both Perturabo and the Lion. If Perturabo really had sided with Horus, why did he need to take them away?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

As the Lion sees it, Perturabo and the other legions need the seige guns to take on Horus on Istvaan, they know he's going to be extremely well dug in. As for Perturabo, they want them so that the Loyalists don't have them and so that they can use them on Istvaan, other worlds and most importantly Terra.

I don't see it as odd or suspicous at all. Sure Perturabo wasn't liked much by anyone, but at the end of the day it's still one more legions backing the Lion for warmaster after the heresy is sorted out. Dorn was given command of the Imperial armies yes, but that's more of the fact that he was in the ideal position to be given command. Sanguinius, Guilliman or Russ couldn't exactly be given command seeing as they are stuck in Signus, fucking miles away and kicking the hell out of Magnus respectively. Once the other four are dealt with on Istvaan it would probably come up again, especially as Dorn may very well be recalled back to Terra the moment it is over anyway to guard it like he was doing in the first place.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood covered me completely as to Dorn's qualifications.

Where the timing is concerned, there's nothing really odd about it. The end of the Heresy would most likely bring about a re-evaluation of things, hierarchy included. What Perturabo noted--that the Lion had defeated Horus through one strategic stroke--would have been understood among the others as well.

In an environment where, from all the Loyalists, only Sanguinius is implied to have been selfless and humble in regards to seeking leadership, having another Primarch vouch for you would mean a great deal (I think).

ckcrawford,

Does your hybrid theory entail the Lion working against the Imperium and Perturabo joining with him to usurp Horus? In that case, Perturabo's statements only make sense if one assumes that the Lion fought the Sons of Horus only to gain Horus' attention, that Perturabo trusted the Lion enough to share his hitherto unknown involvement in the Heresy, and that his subsequent words (about defeating Horus with one stroke) don't apply to the context he seems to be aiming at... that is, depriving Horus of the guns he would need to siege Terra.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Does your hybrid theory entail the Lion working against the Imperium and Perturabo joining with him to usurp Horus? In that case, Perturabo's statements only make sense if one assumes that the Lion fought the Sons of Horus only to gain Horus' attention, that Perturabo trusted the Lion enough to share his hitherto unknown involvement in the Heresy, and that his subsequent words (about defeating Horus with one stroke) don't apply to the context he seems to be aiming at... that is, depriving Horus of the guns he would need to siege Terra.


As to the Lion working against the Imperium I would say not exactly. Well, at least not in the sense he was working with Horus. I would say more in the lines of having both sides just destroy each other with him coming out virtually unscathed. With Perturabo and his forces at full strength waiting for the Lion so they could both destroy the rest of the chaos forces. Making them look like the heroes. At this point and out of desperation the Imperium would have no choice but accept the Lion as Warmaster and two full legions there to support him. As to accepting Perturabo and his legion back, the Imperium really has no choice unless they really thought that throwing away another legion and further weaken themselves. 

The problem with the theory is Perturabo's actions. Even if this were true he would have to speak for his actions on Istvaan. Though fairly if the Lion was Warmaster with Perturabo backing him up, and the Emperor at his current state, he could pardon him. 

The fact that the Lion is getting Perturabo's support like some kind of vote sits very ill with me. Again, its not like the Emperor cares about what his Primarchs want (as he has shown in many cases) its about what he wants. There are plenty examples in past events for the Lion to ignore. And Perturabo... the worst candidate. In fact, at best its just another way to distance himself from getting other support. In the end the Emperor choses the Warmaster. Any useful support from Perturabo would have to be military and strategical.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> As to the Lion working against the Imperium I would say not exactly. Well, at least not in the sense he was working with Horus. I would say more in the lines of having both sides just destroy each other with him coming out virtually unscathed. With Perturabo and his forces at full strength waiting for the Lion so they could both destroy the rest of the chaos forces. Making them look like the heroes. At this point and out of desperation the Imperium would have no choice but accept the Lion as Warmaster and two full legions there to support him. As to accepting Perturabo and his legion back, the Imperium really has no choice unless they really thought that throwing away another legion and further weaken themselves.
> 
> The problem with the theory is Perturabo's actions. Even if this were true he would have to speak for his actions on Istvaan. Though fairly if the Lion was Warmaster with Perturabo backing him up, and the Emperor at his current state, he could pardon him.
> 
> The fact that the Lion is getting Perturabo's support like some kind of vote sits very ill with me. Again, its not like the Emperor cares about what his Primarchs want (as he has shown in many cases) its about what he wants. There are plenty examples in past events for the Lion to ignore. And Perturabo... the worst candidate. In fact, at best its just another way to distance himself from getting other support. In the end the Emperor choses the Warmaster. Any useful support from Perturabo would have to be military and strategical.


makes sense but i think thee is more to perturabo then meets the eye and perhapes he covertd the posistion of warmaster himself, after all horus's ascension to that titkle wan't universally welcomed and certainlyh not by the lion or gulliman the only reason they put up and shut up is that dorn and sanquinus stood by horus's side. I don't know how like or not Perturabo was but i do think that if he is going to ally himself with anyone it would be for his reasons and not to makew the lion come out on top. 
As it was Horus got him because of the way he was fed up with being left out in the cold by daddy and Horus seemed to although i use that term loosley play on the fact that Perturabo was pissed by this. 
The Lion also seemed to play on that and to me and IMHO makes the Lion down right sneaky and one who is not above playing on his brothers emotions to get what he wants.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Eesh, run a spell check through that :S

I dunno, i see Perturabo as a diehard traitor, i can't see them trying to turn him into anything more at the moment. The traitors side was perfect for him, finally got to bite back at the Emperor and the others, and more importantly Dorn. I do wonder though, if Dorn had joined the traitors, would Perturabo? I could see him being spiteful and bitter enough to stay loyal just so he could fight Dorn.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford,

As to Perturabo being forgiven by/reconciled with the Emperor, I just can't see it. Not after the Dropsite Massacres.

As to how helpful his vote would be? If nothing else, the Lion is pragmatic--strategically, tactically, and in his relations. He's also a very intelligent individual (that would be an understatement, haha), and I have to imagine that, _if he didn't think it would make a difference,_ he wouldn't have bothered.

Besides, Perturabo is hardly the "worst" advocate the Lion could have. Remember, so far as the Lion knows, the four Legions going to reinforce Ferrus, Vulkan, and Corax are Loyalists. So, when they dust clears up from this rebellion, the surviving loyal Primarchs would have included the Night Haunter, Magnus the Red, and Lorgar--all of whom were far more into the doghouse than Perturabo... who's only crimes were being sullen and lobbying for better usage of his Legion.

If anything, one could argue the reverse: a bitter loner like Perturabo vouching for the Lion would probably carry more weight than another, more accepted Primarch.

Ultimately, Sanguinius is the only Primarch that is implied to have been humble enough to not worry about overall leadership. If Horus wasn't off the mark when he painted a picture of every other Primarch being his own favorite fan and more worthy than Horus for the title of Warmaster, the Lion would definitely had a leg up over his competition.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Eesh, run a spell check through that :S
> 
> I dunno, i see Perturabo as a diehard traitor, i can't see them trying to turn him into anything more at the moment. The traitors side was perfect for him, finally got to bite back at the Emperor and the others, and more importantly Dorn. I do wonder though, if Dorn had joined the traitors, would Perturabo? I could see him being spiteful and bitter enough to stay loyal just so he could fight Dorn.


sorry about that angel i was in rush


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> As to Perturabo being forgiven by/reconciled with the Emperor, I just can't see it. Not after the Dropsite Massacres.





Phoebus said:


> Aye, there in would lie the problem. I wonder if the plan that Horus initially had was to wipe out those three legions, _completely._ If that was the case, my imagination runs off to the strategical possibilities the Warmaster could have with everyone that knew the second was actually traitor destroyed and kept secret to the rest of the Imperium.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------

