# Alpha Legion: your take?



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Something I've always been wondering about since reading 'Legion' (Great novel!) is the current state and also appearance of the Alpha Legion. It's canon now (since it was in the books) that they turned, after speaking to The Cabal, as they believed it is what the Emperor would have done to ultimately defeat Chaos, but they failed. So now, 10,000 years onwards, what do you think their current status is?

Since reading Legion I've imagined the Alpha Legion to be relatively the same as they were during the Heresy. Their gene-seed is meant to be very pure as they have stayed away from the Eye of Terror, but that being said they are Chaos Marines and many images picture them with mutations, trophies, chaos star tattoos and all kinds. In other words, they look like Chaos Marines.

Next point: do you reckon some of them have been fully seduced by Chaos? I don't mean the odd marine, but entire warbands or chapters. It must be hard to 'serve' Chaos and not find some enjoyment out of it - especially as they wished to prove themselves against other Astartes. It must have been a perverse pleasure to finally say "told you, we were right, our method of fighting is the strongest", and this pleasure is the sort of thing Chaos thrives upon. On the other hand there must be parts of the legion who's loyalty to the Emperor is still intact. On this point, if one of the Primarchs is still alive, will he have kept the legions goals intact? Alpha Legion is known to operate entire parts of their own, so could the Primarch(s) keep all their legion under control?

I'm very curious to see what other people have made of the Alpha Legion fluff. In Dawn of War, they are very very Chaos-y and evil. So what's your take? Evil but with 'good' intentions? Full on Chaos now? Still loyal? The reason I ask is they've always been one of my favourite legions and since reading that novel, my entire idea of them was thrown sideways. Now I don't know if they're tragic heroes or full on badass Chaos worshippers.

All thoughts welcomed, cheers!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I would like to think that they are still somewhat loyal and only assisting chaos to benefit the Imperium.


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## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

Well this may not be on the mark but the soul drinkers were muations but still tried to serve the emperor (first book) and his people. So I think both of your thoughts could happen.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

My preference is they have maintained what they set out to do when they turned against the Emperor for the survival of mankind.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Yeah, I'm thinking they are still loyal to mankind and not to chaos. Maybe some fell, after all they work in small cells spread thinly across the galaxy and you can't maintain 100% loyalty to the cause if you don't see your brothers from time to time to keep a check on the methods you're using to fight the war. 
Maybe some turned and become full on chaos marines, but I believe even if they have then they believe they are doing it for the right reasons, to use chaos to defeat itself and save mankind.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

We still don't know if they decided to turn against the Emperor after their meeting with the Cabal or if they did, whether or not they planned on asking for his forgiveness if the Emperor survived.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> We still don't know if they decided to turn against the Emperor after their meeting with the Cabal or if they did, whether or not they planned on asking for his forgiveness if the Emperor survived.


Alpharius said "The Alpha Legion has always been for The Emperor" and then, at Istvaan, they turned. The reasons for their treachery are one of two: First that they turned due to Horus being the only Primarch Alpharius felt close to while being shunned by others. Second that the Cabal convinced them it was the only way to defeat Chaos, and Alpharius believed that is what the Emperor would have done. 

Bear in mind they met the Cabal only two years before the Drop Site Massacre, it highly unlikely that Alpharius, after telling the Cabal his loyalty was always to the Emperor, would just two years later suddenly renounce that. Moreover as its in the novel Legion, it's pretty much canon now that's why they turned. What I'm interested in is other people's views on the current state of the Legion. I'm really not sure what to believe, if they've fully gone over to Chaos or if their loyalties still lie with the Emperor. 

Also, as a lot of the Alpha Legion exist outside the Eye of Terror, its been literally ten thousand years for them. Thats presuming they don't visit and stay there at all.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

What they did at Istavaan was clear.

But their overall intentions wasn't.

They saved Corax. Why would they if they were not pretending to support Horus's cause? Their deception is what their legion excels at.

Alpharius would not abandon the Emperor simply because he did not spend time with him. 

All the Primarchs were programmed to be loyal to him, it would have taken something collosal to overturn their support for him which is exactly what happened to all the traitor Primarchs. As far as we know, nothing of the sort happened to Alpharius or his other self.

For the remnants of the legion, some have become corrupted, this is clear as the AL are not immune to the touch of chaos. 

But have the entirety of them become corrupted? 

No one knows. Perhaps it's reached a point where some of them have splintered off into their own cells/factions and are warring against one another, one side secretly aiding the Imperium from the shadows.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

There are several threads on this already which may prove insightful to you, for some reason I havn't put them in the FAQ so i'll put them here for now:
Alpha Legion: Your Thoughts.
Alpha Legion...am I the only one who can't stand their fluff.
Legion of disappointment 
The Twins and the Alpha Legion *Spoilers*.



Digg40k said:


> My preference is they have maintained what they set out to do when they turned against the Emperor for the survival of mankind.





TheReverend said:


> to use chaos to defeat itself and save mankind.


This never happened, don't know where that has come from. If (and thats a very big _"if"_) the Alpha Legion capitulated to the Cabal's demands then it wasn't with the intention of saving mankind, it was with the intention of destroying mankind in order to save the galaxy from Chaos.



Machiavellismx said:


> Moreover as its in the novel Legion, it's pretty much canon now that's why they turned.


_Legion_ doesn't explicitly reveal to us why they joined Horus. I've always said that taking what happened at the end of _Legion_ (Alpharius seemingly doing as the Cabal asked) at facevalue would be rash, given the nature of the Legion. Alpharius views the Acuity, hears the demands of the Cabal, then turns on Lord Commander Namatjira and his fleet before joining Horus on the sands of Isstvan V two years later. That are generally the only *facts* we have. 



Machiavellismx said:


> What I'm interested in is other people's views on the current state of the Legion. I'm really not sure what to believe, if they've fully gone over to Chaos or if their loyalties still lie with the Emperor.


Large contingents of the Legion have *certainly* embraced Chaos. I'd be suprised if any elements of the Legion that remain are loyal to anything but Chaos to be honest. They have nothing left to be loyal to (in terms of the Imperium). Any chance of achieving the Cabal's prophecy died with Horus, therefore it wouldn't make sense for them to continue fighting the Imperium for any other reason than a desire for it's destruction.

People have to remember that if the Alpha Legion did as the Cabal instructed and joined Horus to destroy humanity, from that moment they renounced all loyalty to the Imperium and Emperor. They gave their allegience to the Emperor's dream (of the destruction of Chaos) not to the Emperor himself (or his Empire).



Machiavellismx said:


> Also, as a lot of the Alpha Legion exist outside the Eye of Terror, its been literally ten thousand years for them. Thats presuming they don't visit and stay there at all.


Which likely means that the elements of the Legion that remained out of the Eye are now primarily made up of post-Heresy renegades rather than original heretics. _Codex: Imperialis_ also suggests that the Primarchs were not immortal, perhaps meaning there is little chance that either Alpharius or Omegon have survived (if they remained out of the Eye).



Malus Darkblade said:


> What they did at Istavaan was clear.
> 
> But their overall intentions wasn't.


:goodpost:



Malus Darkblade said:


> They saved Corax. Why would they if they were not pretending to support Horus's cause? Their deception is what their legion excels at.


_Deliverence Lost_ will expand on this.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What they did at Istavaan was clear.
> 
> But their overall intentions wasn't.
> 
> They saved Corax. Why would they if they were not pretending to support Horus's cause? Their deception is what their legion excels at.



There actions at Istvaan V are by no means clear. We know they were there, that's it. We have no accounts of any thing they did other then help Corax and 3k Raven Guard escape. I am not sure what part they played in the Drop site massacre if any. Maybe they planned it. Maybe they faked participation to help the loyalists survive. Maybe they led the traitors on wild goose chases to give the loyalists time to escape. Maybe they helped Vulcan like they did Corax. The Primarch book by A D-B has a part with Alpharius that makes me think they remained loyal.

As a Raven Guard fan boy and Alpha Legion hater, my world was rocked by Faces of treachery. I hope Deliverance Lost will be as interesting.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> There actions at Istvaan V are by no means clear. We know they were there, that's it.


Well we know they were there, and engaged the loyalist vanguard just like the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Night Lords did. They didn't just sit there, or feigned battle. They gunned down the loyalists just as much as the other traitor Legions did.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> The Primarch book by A D-B has a part with Alpharius that makes me think they remained loyal.


You mean _Aurelian_? The only part with Alpharius in is during the Primarch council at the beginning (although he is not physically present). He is portrayed as mysterious (as always) but there is nothing to indicate his allegience.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree wholeheartedly with Child of the Emperor's post. The majority, if not the entirety of the Alpha legion would have fallen to Chaos by now. They are certainly anti Imperium, that being the whole point of their turning after all. Not to mention even if they where still loyal the Imperium has changed so much from the one they knew they would likely oppose it out of principle. 

To be honest i always thought Legion rather weak. I mean a primarch really taking the word of some mysterious alien group at face value and with no reservations or second thought is ludicrous. He betrayed his whole heritage, his whole species just because some aliens asked him too and said that these mysterious powers- who he has been told empirically do not exist, will consume the galaxy. 

The cabal's reasoning wasn't even sound. Mankind not being around while probably weakening the Chaos gods, would not kill them off. As long as there are sentient species with emotions there will be the Chaos gods, the Eldar after all where the ones who created Slaanesh, you don't see the Cabal trying to remove the Eldar. I personally believe it was a trick. Whether Chaos' eventual victory would be a result of mankind's continued existence or not they were all Xenos and as such did not want a dominant, xenophobic human empire free to wage war against them. The Imperium in its current state is far easier to deal with.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

As soon as i read Faces of Treachery i was convinced that they saved the Raven Guard to insert a spy into the legion, well whats left of it. The closing words of the Alpha Legionairres and the Human commander with the Raven Guard seem(to me) to indicate this.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> As soon as i read Faces of Treachery i was convinced that they saved the Raven Guard to insert a spy into the legion, well whats left of it. The closing words of the Alpha Legionairres and the Human commander with the Raven Guard seem(to me) to indicate this.


Just checked BL, and a new synopsis for _Deliverance Lost_ has been posted up:

_"As the Horus Heresy divides the Imperium, Corax and his few remaining Raven Guard escape the massacre at Isstvan V. Tending to their wounds, the bloodied Space Marines endeavour to replenish their numbers and return to the fray, taking the fight to the traitor Warmaster. Distraught at the crippling blow dealt to his Legion, Corax returns to Terra to seek the aid of his father – the Emperor of Mankind. Granted access to ancient secrets, Corax begins to rebuild the Raven Guard, planning his revenge against his treacherous brother primarchs. *But not all his remaining warriors are who they appear to be… the mysterious Alpha Legion have infiltrated the survivors and plan to destroy the Raven Guard before they can rebuild and threaten Horus’s plans.*"_

This seems strange. Why would the Alpha Legion allow the Raven Guard to escape Isstvan V only to then attempt to destroy them afterwards? There is no doubt reasoning behind this, but it is by no means clear.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Wahey, i called that ages ago! Think i even made a thread on it


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ]
> 
> This seems strange. Why would the Alpha Legion allow the Raven Guard to escape Isstvan V only to then attempt to destroy them afterwards? There is no doubt reasoning behind this, but it is by no means clear.


If that is the case and they in fact simply did all that just to plant a few of their own into the RG then that is some terrible writing.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This seems strange. Why would the Alpha Legion allow the Raven Guard to escape Isstvan V only to then attempt to destroy them afterwards? There is no doubt reasoning behind this, but it is by no means clear.


I don't know; there were other survivors of the massacre who would be fleeing to Terra with news of this new betrayal. The Alpha Legion would now be marked as loyal to Horus, and so any of their number who came to Terra would likely see a response of outright hostility or close scrutiny and suspicion.

So whats the best way to get your agents into the heart of your enemy? Infiltrate a loyal legion with a few agents. After all, these are the masters of infiltration and subterfuge right? Once they have an in, who knows how well they can exploit it?



Malus Darkblade said:


> If that is the case and they in fact simply did all that just to plant a few of their own into the RG then that is some terrible writing.


Did all that? You mean saving some of the Raven Guard and allowing them to escape? Thats not terribly much, considering what else was done at that time.


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## Archlich (Apr 14, 2011)

Honestly for me this idea that they joined Horus just because they had a vision was always retarded. And what happend when Horus actually lost? I mean they sacrificed everything what they belived, just to see that they actually lost everything! Chaos Gods were not outright victorius (chence no way they would be destroyed by Horus - dumb idea anyway!), Emperor incapacitated, Horus dead...
Honestly this might be a good time to say something like "Sorry guys, take us back"
"Evil aliens showed us some power point presentation about the bad future and we belived"
Seriously: Emp should brodcast some propaganda to traitor primarchs, it seems that they all had muscles instead of a brain.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I always believed that the AL did do what the Cabal wanted. No it dosent say it, but the Cabal insisted that they help Horus and so they did. But since Horus is dead, that leaves the question of "now what?"

I believe that the AL is split up, that there isn't one single purpose of them. It is clear though that they renounced their oaths to the Emperor so this is the way I see it:
-That some of them have fallen to Chaos and now just wish to serve it for their own selfish purposes
-They still believe that if they aid Chaos, it would be for the betterment of the universe
-There are those within the Legion who try and destroy Chaos, perhaps by pretending to be aiding the traitor legions, but then betray them

So either way I think they serve Chaos, but for different reasons.
For the third proposition I'm not sure because they have always been depicted as siding with Chaos, so perhaps they use Chaos to fight Chaos (fight fire with fire, evil with evil)


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well then. I'm seriously wondering myself. In truth, this organization operates like the best intelligence agency you've ever seen. Their motives are secret and the plans are shwdow. Have some of them fallen? Ovcourse. Operating on the edge for that long will lead some to fall. As a whole? No idea. I think that is the overall point of the Alpha legion is you have absolutely no idea who's running it,what they're doing, and if they still are allies or enemies. No real stories have been written that take you inside.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I am inclined to agree with deadeye. They are masters of misdirection so confusion like this is to be expected. As for the saving of the remainder of the raven guard, the value of a well placed agent is worth thousands of men in the field.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Outcast Dead makes a rather cryptic message at one point that may or may not refer to the Alpha Legion primarchs. 

"Twins conjoined by a single soul, tugging in different directions."


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

They are either the most patient legion ever or kings of procrastination.

Either way, they're doing a bang tidy job. They also get sundays off.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I have no problem buying into the idea that - at the end of "Legion" - Alpharius (and possibly/probably Omegon) had sincerely accepted the Cabal's proposal.

A lot of folks seem to question this on account of the Primarch in question being of the Alpha Legion, which in their eyes indicates things should never be as they seem. Others question the idea of Alpharius turning purely on the grounds of it being non-sensical: a Primarch being turned by "mere talk" (someone called it a PowerPoint Presentation), as it were.

But it _wasn't_ mere talk, that's the thing. Issues of the Cabal's integrity aside, Alpharius and Omegon were exposed to a very powerful psychic effect in order to "show them the future". If they did turn because of that, it's hardly a case without precedent: Horus himself was turned using similar means (though obviously for different ends).

I agree with Angel of Blood, though: that's a potent statement left in "The Outcast Dead". I honestly think it ties in directly with why the Alpha Legionnaires eventually go Chaos-y, mutate, etc.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I have no problem buying into the idea that - at the end of "Legion" - Alpharius (and possibly/probably Omegon) had sincerely accepted the Cabal's proposal.
> 
> A lot of folks seem to question this on account of the Primarch in question being of the Alpha Legion, which in their eyes indicates things should never be as they seem. Others question the idea of Alpharius turning purely on the grounds of it being non-sensical: a Primarch being turned by "mere talk" (someone called it a PowerPoint Presentation), as it were.
> 
> ...


^Good point

I agree with this but I also believe that the Alpha legion has split apart and that they don't opperate as a whole Legion. Think about how man different cults they have. I look at it like this. Take 10 people who share a similar belief and put them in a room. Tell them all an idea, concept, or controversal topic regarding to their belief. They all might stand for the same thing, but the way they deal with the idea or concept will be different for all them in some degree. People automatically assume that since you are part of a larger entity, you stand 110% for it, no thats not true. There are many, many, many hydra cults out there and who knows when the last time they were in contact with another AL faction? So I find it hard to believe that all of their motives are for the same outcome.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well whose to say they would join Chaos if that was the only way for humans to prosper? Its kinda like "Hmm what would be better, dead and free or some gains powers and a shit load of slaves?" Its not impossible for Alpharius at the end of the heresy think "Shit alternative 1 went down the drain, lets try the other thing."


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Androxine,

I have no problem believing that the Alpha Legion split apart at some point... _since that's more or less how they are described._ :wink:

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be devastated if it was revealed that eeeevil Omegon killed Alpharius, pushed the Legion to Chaos, and has since been the shadowy, hidden mastermind behind all these various cabals (or something like that)... but nor would I care if they were just autonomous, compartmentalized fragments proving their dead Primarch right ten thousand years after their death.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Androxine,
> 
> I have no problem believing that the Alpha Legion split apart at some point... _since that's more or less how they are described._ :wink:
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be devastated if it was revealed that eeeevil Omegon killed Alpharius, pushed the Legion to Chaos, and has since been the shadowy, hidden mastermind behind all these various cabals (or something like that)... but nor would I care if they were just autonomous, compartmentalized fragments proving their dead Primarch right ten thousand years after their death.


Haha, that'd make me sad, if one of them was evil. I'm kind of hoping that, during the final battle against the forces of the Warp, the Alpha Legion will suddenly turn on Chaos at a pivotal moment, costing them everything and giving the Imperium the chance to land the killing blow. Kind of a "_that was a sucker punch ten thousand years in the making, biiiiiiiiitch! BOO-YAH!" _moment. Followed by every Legionnaire everywhere high-fiving each other and chest bumping, before disappearing into the shadows forever.


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## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

I know that in the anthology "Victories of the Space Marines" there is a short story that involves an Alpha Legionnaire. He was definitely not loyal.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Though that was that not released before Legion, which is where the loyalty thing first started.


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

i would like to throw my 2p in on this,
I love the AL they are by far the most interesting legion, I beleive they only send the weak or the old to chaos to keep up apperances, as there are not to many CSM AL's about, kinda like sacrificial lambs, more has to be done with them a decent book or triology written about them. there is no doubt in my mind that it just wasn't the Raven Guard they sent spies into but probably every other Legion to( friends close but enemies closer kinda thing)


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Could it be that Alpharius and Omegron went against one another, both could have been for the Imperium. However one was specifically for fighting against Horus and helping the Emperor, while the other was for fighting for Horus and helping the Imperium by destroying it.

Or maybe, both disagreed at the start and as the Heresy went on the AL began to fracture, some siding with Alpharius and others with Omegron. Post war, one of them died and the legion following the ideals of the remaining twin, which obviously chose chaos.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Hard to imagine them fighting/disagreeing since they are essentially the same being.


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

but there is always one evil twin!


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

g00dd0ct0r said:


> but there is always one evil twin!



::Imagines a handlebar-mustached Omegon wearing a monocle, tying Alpharius' girlfriend to railroad tracks and cackling maniacally::

But seriously, that'd be about the worst direction GW could take that in, IMO. Though they've done sillier things before.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well the quote from outcast dead to me at least indicates that Alpharius and Omegron both had different perceptions, and choices into regards to what they believed in.

Specifically that though they were one soul, both alpharius and omegron went in different directions with what they thought was the best method and choice of action to take, IE in opposite directions of the other. So who is to say one didn't kill the other?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Haven't read the book yet but I am of the opinion that the Emperor created 20 Primarchs.

Alpharius, due to his voyage in the Warp to the planet he crash landed on, split into two beings which ultimately served his Legion's philosophy quite well.

My only question is what the Alpha Legion were like prior to being reunited with their Primarch.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> My only question is what the Alpha Legion were like prior to being reunited with their Primarch.


They were young, barely a few decades old when Alpharius was found, and so they basically jumped into the Great Crusade completely fresh, already with a Primarch, and absorbed everything that Alpharius had to teach them very quickly. They really didn't have time to ever be like a regular Legion, which is why they are so different from all the others. They've always been super ninjas, essentially, with a very loose command structure and an open field of thinking where anyone who had an idea got to put it forward.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that they are as straight forward(pure Chaos Legion) as some people like to think. Then again, seeing what other Primarchs have done and the derpy ways they fell, I would not put it past GW to make the Alpha Legion start out trying to subvert Chaos but then falling to them like every other CSM Legion. That would be lame but the Grimdark Tragedy theme would be kept going strong at least.


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## mc wazzahamma (Jul 12, 2011)

Though Alpharius and Omegon seem to be very agreeable on every decision they've been shown to make so far, Omegon appears to be the more emotional and aggressive one, while Alpharius is a bit more reasonable. You can see the contrast in Legion. Omegon is always 'growling' and snapping, where Alpharius is cool as a cucumber until he sees the acuity and screams like a little girl.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

It is not unheard of people battling with decisions within themselves (grubbling and trying to reason the best outcome), and Alpharius and Omegon would literally battle with themselves then... psysically.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

Lux said:


> Well the quote from outcast dead to me at least indicates that Alpharius and Omegron both had different perceptions, and choices into regards to what they believed in.
> 
> Specifically that though they were one soul, both alpharius and omegron went in different directions with what they thought was the best method and choice of action to take, IE in opposite directions of the other. So who is to say one didn't kill the other?


Heres a thought. Just the fact that they pulled in different directions doesnt nessacerily mean internal conflict.

Lets look at the options open to them,...
Side with Horus... Chaos Ultimately wins
Side with Emperor... Humanity exterminated, 

lets be fair... both options suck.

I believe they try to enact a 3rd result... help both, and hinder both in an effort to avoid both results. The twins pulling in different directions is just a metaphor for the nature in which the Legion conducts itself during the heresy.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Does it ever say if the Ruinous Powers were involved at all with the AL. If I were a Chaos God I would think the AL would be a great Legion to corrupt because they are the most secretive and deceptive. I don't know, I didn't know if the Chaos Powers had any interest in them during the Heresy or even i fthey saw them as an important ally. Couldn't Chaos have forseen that the AL might possibly betray them though? So why have them an ally? So much uncertainty...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Does it ever say if the Ruinous Powers were involved at all with the AL.


For my money the Cabal has always struck me as a Tzeentch cult. It oppossess the Primordial Annihilator which sounds and is described more like a Khorne/Nurgle combo than as a full Chaos Pantheon and uses visions and desception to convince people of the right way to act. Plus an anti-Chaos cult that is actually a Chaos cult is totally Tzeentch's scene (Star Child anyone?).


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

The question IMO is how much do the rank and file know?

Re: Legion HH novel, do they know WHY they turned traitor? The cabal? Who did Guilliman kill - Alpharius, Omegon?

There is simply not enough info I believe. I'd like to think they, in some way, hold on to their loyalty. Destruction of the Imperium, perverted beyond what they see as the Emperor's plan, in his name? It's possible. It's also possible that 10000 years of being renegade, possibly without half of their primarch, possibly the leading Alpharius, HAS turned at least some of them truely to Chaos.


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

I agree with the posts, the alpha legion did turn and killed the imperial army attached to them as the cabal showed alpharius what would happen if horus won the heresy, humanity would be slaves to chaos and become stronger, so i assume they turned to stop chaos by detroying humanity so chaos could'nt become stronger


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## chiwing (Feb 27, 2012)

I believe that Alpharius stood by what he said that he is for the Emperor.

the two choices where:
1. Help Horus and he will win but then after 2-3 generations he will turn on chaos and all the others out of guilt and destroy or weaken chaos for good.

2. Help the Emperor, the emperor will win but be mortally wounded and mankind will stagnate and decay into chaos over the coming millenniums and the universe will be put in constant war

And given the Outcome of the war, mainly the emperor winning, Alpharius chose to side with the Emperor. 

But of course he wouldn't just go over and stand in the trenches of Terra and play it by the book, he would probably try and infiltrate the enemy, The camp of Horus.

But after the end of the war the stamp of traitor legion could not be removed

Who knows maybe the Emperor knew, or even told Alpharius to do it, and now in the 41st millennium they work in the shadows to produce a new outcome, where the Emperor must be released by his mortal prison and reborn, but at the same time hinder the forces of chaos to devour the emperors soul when it enters the immaterium. 

And they acting like CSM is still an act, just as well as when they act as SM. they happily gun down loyalists and traitors alike to keep their cover and promote the success of the mission.

And with the Primarch gene- thingy they got from Deliverance, they are probably able to create any kind of space marine to infiltrate the oppositions even mutated variants.

That is what I think.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

chiwing said:


> And given the Outcome of the war, mainly the emperor winning, Alpharius chose to side with the Emperor.
> 
> But of course he wouldn't just go over and stand in the trenches of Terra and play it by the book, he would probably try and infiltrate the enemy, The camp of Horus.
> 
> But after the end of the war the stamp of traitor legion could not be removed


But that doesn't justify why the Alpha Legion would directly aid Horus to the extent they did. They gunned down the loyailsts on Isstvan V just as much as the other traitors, they engaged the Space Wolves on Yarrant as well as near Prospero, they pushed entire worlds into rebellion and heresy (_Liar's Due_) and attempted to destroy the remnants of the Raven Guard and steal the Emperor's genetic secrets, among other things. I think it's safe to say that they were not simply aligned with the Emperor by infiltrating Horus's forces.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

GoRy said:


> The question IMO is how much do the rank and file know?
> 
> Re: Legion HH novel, do they know WHY they turned traitor? The cabal? Who did Guilliman kill - Alpharius, Omegon?


Spoilers for "Deliverance Lost" and "Know no Fear" ahead:

There were some rank and file Alpha Legion that infiltrate the Raven Guard. We get a fair bit of writing from the view of one of these infiltrators. He knows nothing about the Cabal. He's simply following orders. 

In "Know no Fear" we have the reappearance of (what appears) to be John Grammaticus. He sets in motion a series of events that will lead to the Emperor triumphing over Horus. Assuming it was truly John Grammaticus or at least the Cabal he worked for, that would mean a switch in priorities for the Cabal--better for the Emperor to be half-alive on the Golden Throne than Horus defeat the Emperor.

The Alpha Legion continuing to support Horus despite the change in the Cabal's wishes makes it more likely that the AL wasn't simply supporting Horus to fight Chaos.

Then again Alpharius discarded the Cabal go-between in "Deliverance Lost". So maybe there was simply a lack of communication? It did, after all, take (at least?) a decade for John to get in contact with the AL. There may not have been time to set up another meeting. Assuming the AL cared to listen at that point.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> In "Know no Fear" we have the reappearance of (what appears) to be John Grammaticus. He sets in motion a series of events that will lead to the Emperor triumphing over Horus. Assuming it was truly John Grammaticus or at least the Cabal he worked for, that would mean a switch in priorities for the Cabal--better for the Emperor to be half-alive on the Golden Throne than Horus defeat the Emperor.


Or that Grammaticus was acting without the Cabal's sanction - which is plausable given his general reluctance in _Legion_.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Or that Grammaticus was acting without the Cabal's sanction - which is plausable given his general reluctance in _Legion_.


I'm at work at the moment so I don't have my books, but didn't John walk out an airlock at the end of "Legion"?

Edit: Okay, back home and read it! Apparently he was walking towards one before the book cuts out. He does say that he hopes that this is his last death so we're given some options:

1. John stopped or was stopped before he killed himself.

2. John was raised from the dead (again).

3. John died, but wasn't raised.

From there we get more options:

1. John is working for the Cabal.

2. John is working for himself, possibly against the Cabal.

3. There is no John. He died and stayed dead. The John we see is either another Cabal agent (assuming the Cabal have switched their plans), a Chaos agent wanting the eventual triumph for Chaos (this assumes that the Cabal's original vision is correct), or some third party agent we don't know about yet.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

My opinion:

1. John Grammaticus is a reluctant (at best) agent of the Cabal, but does believe in what they're selling. Between "Legion" and "Know No Fear", though, either this changes... and he tries to save the Emperor. 
2. Alpharius and Omegon genuinely believe what the Cabal is showing them via the Acuity in "Legion"... but that's in large part due to the overwhelming psychic effect of the whole show.
3. Their actions at the end of "Legion" (against Namatjira) are thus genuinely meant to show that they will side with Horus "against" the Emperor.
4. Somewhere between "Legion" and "Deliverance Lost", Alpharius and Omegon probably start re-thinking whether everything the Acuity showed was legitimate (valid point; the Acuity's vision sounds a lot like the future Horus was shown... which could only come about _if he rebelled to begin with_...).
5. When they realize Corax is about to unlock technology capable to super-sizing his Legion, Alpharius and Omegon decide that there might be Option #3 on the table. They can super-size _Alpha Legion_ while fulfilling the Cabal's vision (Emperor falls). Remember, Alpha Legion is pragmatic to the Nth degree. Their commanders (not just the Primarchs) are able to engage in species-level discourse like it's another strategic topic. If Humanity is destined to be wiped out anyways, there's zero harm in trying to take down Horus before he does eradicate Humanity. If they fail, no issues. If they succeed, that's an unforeseen contingency that won't necessarily be as bad as the future shown by the Acuity.
6. At some point, though, I think either Alpharius OR Omegon either:
a. ... dies, which leaves the other twin susceptible to Chaos, or...
b. ... turns on his twin.
7. Alternately, Alpha Legion uses the Gene-seed technology that was corrupted in "Deliverance Lost" and unwittingly corrupt themselves (though not to the same degree as the Raven Guard Raptors).

This, in turn, opens up the Legion to corruption, which is why the Alpha Legionnaires today are often mutated and/or lost their way and worship Chaos.

8. Even more alternately, one half of Alpha Legion operates outside the Eye of Terror (and still hopes to end the horror of Humanity by destroying the Imperium, as the Primarchs decided to do so 10,000 years or go) but the other half went to Chaos. Perhaps one or both of the twins is still active with their respective half of the Legion.

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Considering the Emperor had the genetic technology available, I wonder why he didn't permit his trusted praetorian Dorn to utilise it to _super-size_ the Imperial Fists - thus solving the issue of not enough loyalist Legions being available to garrison Terra...

Although I suppose he trusted Corax with it considering the lord of the XIX intended to swell his Legion back up to (and beyond normal) strength in order to harrass the Warmaster's advance. But surely he could have allowed both the IV and XIX to utilise the technology, thus giving the Imperium a significant advantage.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering the Emperor had the genetic technology available, I wonder why he didn't permit his trusted praetorian Dorn to utilise it to _super-size_ the Imperial Fists - thus solving the issue of not enough loyalist Legions being available to garrison Terra...
> 
> Although I suppose he trusted Corax with it considering the lord of the XIX intended to swell his Legion back up to (and beyond normal) strength in order to harrass the Warmaster's advance. But surely he could have allowed both the IV and XIX to utilise the technology, thus giving the Imperium a significant advantage.


Maybe the Emperor was a bit more distrustful than we believe him to be?

If an over-strengthed Raven Guard turned traitor it would be bad, as any other Legion turning, but if an over-strengthed Imperial Fist Legion turned it could prove impossible to dislodge the traitors from Imperial space. It could potentially be a huge risk.

Maybe of all the remaining Loyalists, the Raven Guard geneseed was the only one capable of such rapid culturing? 

Maybe it was a plot hole forgotten by the authors ?

On another note, isn't the IV (the fourth) Legion the Iron Warriors? A Legion already proven at that point to be traitors?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Maybe the Emperor was a bit more distrustful than we believe him to be?
> 
> If an over-strengthed Raven Guard turned traitor it would be bad, as any other Legion turning, but if an over-strengthed Imperial Fist Legion turned it could prove impossible to dislodge the traitors from Imperial space. It could potentially be a huge risk.
> 
> ...


Perhaps.

Although considering Dorn was already praetorian and de-facto Warmaster, it seems assured that he was completely trusted. 



hailene said:


> On another note, isn't the IV (the fourth) Legion the Iron Warriors? A Legion already proven at that point to be traitors?


Woops, meant VII.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Archlich said:


> Honestly for me this idea that they joined Horus just because they had a vision was always retarded. And what happend when Horus actually lost? I mean they sacrificed everything what they belived, just to see that they actually lost everything! Chaos Gods were not outright victorius (chence no way they would be destroyed by Horus - dumb idea anyway!), Emperor incapacitated, Horus dead...
> Honestly this might be a good time to say something like "Sorry guys, take us back"
> "Evil aliens showed us some power point presentation about the bad future and we belived"
> Seriously: Emp should brodcast some propaganda to traitor primarchs, it seems that they all had muscles instead of a brain.


I think that idea is retarded as well. I don't believe Alpharius and Omegon are so acceptable as some would suggest. I believe Alpharius and Omegon got off in the fact they could play both sides. They have come to the points where their actions have become unnecessary. Their actions don't make any sense, and the readers are trying to make up something. 

But perhaps their actions are not suppose to make sense. It seems that Alpharius lives for trickery, spying, and living up to his reputation. They no longer belong to the will of the Cabal. _Deliverance Lost_ showed me a weakness in their legion. The agents blindly follow Alpharius believing whatever he does to be for the better good. Sooner or later this must hit home. In 10,000 years the Alpha Legion has accomplished nothing. And they are all over the place. We have some that are under chaos influence enough that some are Daemon Princes, and some that aren't. 



Angel of Blood said:


> The Outcast Dead makes a rather cryptic message at one point that may or may not refer to the Alpha Legion primarchs.
> 
> "Twins conjoined by a single soul, tugging in different directions."


Could point out they were lost to begin with. Not knowing which direction to go, it would explain why their goals seem obscured. In the end, they just don't know what goal to strive for, instead just living by what they do best.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering the Emperor had the genetic technology available, I wonder why he didn't permit his trusted praetorian Dorn to utilise it to _super-size_ the Imperial Fists - thus solving the issue of not enough loyalist Legions being available to garrison Terra...
> 
> Although I suppose he trusted Corax with it considering the lord of the XIX intended to swell his Legion back up to (and beyond normal) strength in order to harrass the Warmaster's advance. But surely he could have allowed both the IV and XIX to utilise the technology, thus giving the Imperium a significant advantage.


I think _Deliverance Lost_ wasn't planned out very well and with enough time. I agree, there really isn't a reason why Dorn wouldn't be able to use this power. Corax never had the strength to protect the secret from being destroyed as well. Forget the fact that the secret was stolen, Corax had bits and pieces of his legion to defend it with. It makes no sense, especially if the enemy knows where they are. An accident waiting to happen if you ask me.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering the Emperor had the genetic technology available, I wonder why he didn't permit his trusted praetorian Dorn to utilise it to _super-size_ the Imperial Fists - thus solving the issue of not enough loyalist Legions being available to garrison Terra...
> 
> Although I suppose he trusted Corax with it considering the lord of the XIX intended to swell his Legion back up to (and beyond normal) strength in order to harrass the Warmaster's advance. But surely he could have allowed both the IV and XIX to utilise the technology, thus giving the Imperium a significant advantage.


I believe this was a matter of the storyline not being well thought out. Gav, in my opinion, often has plot holes that defy logic in his works. I'm sure we can speculate about all sorts of reasons why but in the end it comes down to being a bad decision. Many of the Emperor's choices don't make him out to be the an effective leader or strategist (unless of course everything that came to pass was his plan to begin with...then he would be a freakin' genius).

The betrayal of the Alpha Legion on the recommendation of the Cabal has always been troubling. I believe there are problems with their predictions. Afterall, humans are not the only beings that fuel the power of the Chaos gods. So, the extinction of mankind (which was the end result of both outcomes presented) would not have wiped out the Ruinous Powers.

It seems to me more likely to me that they didn't want to Emperor to win because many alien species would be facing annihilation themselves when the Crusade came knocking. I think we'll probably learn more of their motivation, especially since it is apparent that at least some of the Perpetuals aren't exactly serving their interests.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I would like to say something haveing just finished Deliverance Lost in regards to ckcrawfords point about the plot hole and timeing involeved inthe story. lol, this is also a fan kinda making stuff up as people have said earlier, but I think they are still valid points.

It is a slight plot hole as you mentioned that The Big E game Corax the gene data and not Rogal, however, 
1) Rogals Legion is not really damaged in any way, why perhaps take the risk of putting troops that have unseen flaws in his legion when he doesnt need to? The risk is different with the Raven Gaurd, as if they where any worse off they would be completely gone. 
2) Corax has a different mindset and thinks differently than Dorn, Deliverance Lost specifically goes into how Corax can hold many different things in his head and have them all come together taking in all sorts of different factors to achieve things not necessarily possible by others. Not to say that Dorn cant do this, but so far his character hasnt been illuminated yet. The point being Dorn might not even have been able to break into the Vault in the manner that Corax did, and if he didnt do it like Corax he could've ruined his Legion trying. On a somewhat sidenot, Dorn's character being of the Stoic type so far, IMO he wouldve jsut tryed to blast his way through or something similar, not finesse it in the manner of Corax.
3) also the Custodian Guard where on hand to watch the gene tech, that was their only function, and even if the Raven Guard couldnt be entirely trusted to gaurd it and potentially destroy it, the Custodes definitely could.

Lol, love the sig bte ckcrawford, clearly the Mask is a follower of Cegorach.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I think really the only defense in favor of the Emperor choice was that he did not yet know the status of the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars or Space Wolves. Still, it would have made much more sense to side with caution and begin production of a force that could have defeated Horus and not leave it up to chance. He already knew that several legions had sided against him and that the powers of Chaos were involved, so the fact that he was under-manned should have been obvious.

As for Dorn's capabilities...he would have to be just as sharp as any of the Primarchs to be the master of defense he is made out to be. The amount of planning and logistics behind fortifying a structure as massive as the Imperial Palace proves his staggering intellect and the ability to deal with an unbelievable amount of factors. Though, it is perhaps because he had so much to deal with that he was not given the task.

In any case, at this point we have more questions than answers. I just hope that changes by the end of the series.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Im not saying Dorn isnt sharp, just that IMO his character is more of a hard facts kind of person, A=B=C whereas Corax is more intuitive, dealing with things he cannot see or measure, he couldnt see the entire defense system for the Vault, but he could conceptualize the nature of the system, ie. when it references him turning parts of the system agaisnt itself. 
On a tangent, not saying Dorn couldnt have done this as well, jsut that his character hasnt been shown to do anythign similar, being more of a Fort person which deals in more definites. ie, this portion of the Fort must sustain so much pressure, and this gun must have so many degrees to add fields of fire to this gun and so on so forth.
Also your point of Dorn having more on plate to deal with and as well as the Big E not knowing the status of several of his other legions i hadnt considered.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

With regards to why the Emperor did or did not do X or Y, it appears to me that the case for the Emperor knowing how the Heresy would play is becoming more and more likely.

Thats my own opinion though.

As far as the Alpha Legion goes...I hate their current portrayal. "Whats that? Something bad happened somewhere in the galaxy at any given time? Alpha Legion secret agents!"
I also really dislike the idea of the Cabal. "Secret all knowing aliens! (read: Green Lantern Corps)" and generally...ignore them.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Spoilers for Deliverance Lost!!!!!!!!


The Emperor is the father of the Lion. That in itself should tell you how much he "trusts" anyone. Even the old warmaster before Dorn barely got any info when everything was going relatively smoothly. I think the Alpha Legion is showing something other than falling to Chaos:Ambition. Horus and the rest are nervous about the abilities of the Alpha Legion. No one trusts them. He allowed Corax to live only so he could get his hands on that genetic code for making astartes. I think it was the douch bag Gullimans taunts that really drove this story line.

Being made to feel second best buy a guy with hundreds of worlds to recruit from and centuries ahead of you in campaigning can piss anyone off. Maybe the twins were just looking to even the Legions out against the others. Also to the notion there might be some kind of spilt I'll say one thing. They are not so much twins as they are two beings with the same soul. That means they are essentially the same being with the same soul.They can do twice the work of another primarch with half the effort. Why have some Alpha legions fallen? 

Espionage is probably the most difficult work to accomplish in wartime much less during peace time. To opperate in independent cells across the galaxy for decades to centuries with no real connection to your control pushes the limits. Its the shadow world of spies. I believe the fallen have done so of their own accord. Before we go judging who's fallen to Chaos let's remember only the Grey Knights can boast never having ANYONE fall to chaos. Every loyalist legions has traitors and renegades in the EOT for one reason or another. It's entirely plausible that some Alpha Legion have, in operating independently for so long, slipped down that path as well.


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