# Bretonnia vs Empire



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I've looked at both fluffwise and despite both of their kingdoms expanding and growing I don't know which one would actually win on a 1 on 1 fight that was a full-scale conflict, not just one small battle across or at the border. So who do you think would win on a 1 vs 1 fight with all their resources at their disposal on one another? Oh and during this assume that all the other races such as Chaos, O+G, VC, etc...don't randomly come in and smash aside the weakened empires, so basically without the interruption or any attacks from any other race.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Empire- no argument, they're vastly larger and more advanced.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

As much as I hate to go against my beloved and beautiful bretts it is without doubt the empire. They are larger and their armies are better trained whilst the bulk of the bretts are diseased and motley peasants


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

I'm the loner who went for Bretonnians  Bretonnia would Obviously win! and by win, I mean draw, and by draw, I mean cut themselves off from the empire with a giant wall of peasant bodies. Nobody would miss them anyway  

At any rate, I think I've shown you doubting thomases what for!


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## sundrinker (Aug 7, 2009)

the empire has acsess to black powder so while the brettonians are being chivilrous and all the empire are blowing the crap out of them with guns. and the empire state troops far out number men at arms. also the brettonian army relies how many nights turn up and how many men they bring whereas the empire count just says right lads go kick some ass and the levy of an area bigger than austria respond.


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## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

One on one Brettonia would win but the empire has a lot of allies and so does Brettonia but brettonia will not hire troops which the empire will have no problem doing. If the empire the wood elves would probably get mad and help out. Mainly because the empire would probably kick them off there land.

Brettonia would also have a easier time defending because they could use there mountains to there advantage by funneling the empire down through the mountain passes so they will not be able to take advantage of there outnumbering.


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## Freedirtyneedles (Oct 22, 2009)

brets have the favor of the lady on their side, that's gotta count for something when all those guns go off. oh and the green knight will just keep coming back no matter how many cannonballs he blocks with his face.....would actually be a cool fight in my opinion.


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## Yilmar (Sep 12, 2009)

Some factors that need to be taken into consideration:



Nipolian said:


> Brettonia would also have a easier time defending because they could use there mountains to there advantage by funneling the empire down through the mountain passes so they will not be able to take advantage of there outnumbering.


Heavily armoured knights in narrow and rocky mountain paths?
Just think about it :grin:

And Empire doesn't need outnumber we will kick ass with iron resolve and offcourse pigeon bombs.



Freedirtyneedles said:


> oh and the green knight will just keep coming back no matter how many cannonballs he blocks with his face....


Here come the pesticides, the green knight will look a lot more greener now uke: <- :taunt:
And lead poisoning also affects plants...


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

Nipolian said:


> One on one Brettonia would win but the empire has a lot of allies and so does Brettonia... -SNIP-


That doesn't correlate to the OP's question. The idea was to disinclude any and all outside forces. Besides, even if other factions were to be included on any and all levels, the Empire would still hold out longer than the Brettonians would. I doubt the Bretts would ever be able to withstand a Kislev-scaled assault like the Empire did. Nor are the Dwarven or High Elven empires comfortable in working with a faction that is just as, if not moreso, isolationist than even themselves.

On a strictly one against one basis, the Empire would win for a long variety of reasons. The first, and I hesitate the draw parallels between such a fictional world and our own, is the Empire's judicious use of gun powder. Historically speaking, we've seen how powerful a musket line is against any form of armor, even, in this case, Brettonian armor. The shear capacity for the Empire to field it's array of war machines of Nuln or any other providence alone is enough to do in the bulkhead of the Brettonian army - it's heavy cavalry. 
Another factor, and one that has been mentioned already in this discussion, is the principle of relative population of the two factions. The Empire is far larger and more populated (in terms of military service-quality people). It can field a larger force far more rapidly than the Brettonians. It is much cheaper and easier to field a large unit of foot soldiers, such as halberdiers or spear men, than it is to field even a small unit of knights. All that it takes to go into putting a spear man to the field is a long stick with a pointy piece of metal and a slab of wood, maybe some nice-looking clothing. For a Knight, it takes a full suit of armor to be either handed down or custom forged, a lance, a steed of high quality and is well broken (it's an equestrian term, Google it), and any other Chivalrous accouterments that said knight would prefer to sport. Those two examples, mind you, represent a linchpin unit for each faction. It clearly makes sense that the Empire's infantry are easier to field (despite being fairly well trained) than the Brettonian knights (who are, individually, the greater warriors).

I could go on, but my point is clear at this point. Isolating the focus of the debate solely down to the forces to be mustered, the Empire would win. In game terms, I cannot say. But with history as a precedent and logic and a basis, we should be able to judge the Empire as the preferred victor.

I would also imagine tactics are more than worth noting, but those are so subjective that it's folly to bother including in a sensible argument. Who's to say that the Empire wouldn't love to see the heavy cavalry of the Bretts charge up a steep slope (a la Agincourt)? And who's to say that the Bretts wouldn't like a large, open, flat field to allow their great cavalry the opportunity to out-maneuver the vast hordes of the Empire (barring any intervention of the Knightly Orders)? This is all very, very subjective and it's easy to get ourselves caught in a cyclical debate of "Yeah, but if..." We'd clearly have to look elsewhere to establish a more respectable, though hardly definitive, answer to the OP's query. Hence why I mentioned the forces only.


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## Lord Justicar Gideon (Mar 3, 2009)

I voted for Bretonnia, but it depends on the scenario. Are we talking about a big, open battlefield, or the Empire invading Bretonnia?

The answer to the first is simple: Bretonnia. They'd close with the enemy far quicker than the Empire because, though the Empire does have some knights, even if they bring every Knightly Order to bear, Bretonnia will still have more knights. That's an indisputable fact. They may take casualties from arrows, pistols, handguns, magic etc, but remember that Bretonnians have the favour of the Lady, which is used as a means of stopping this unchivalrous behaviour from causing great harm. Not to mention the fact that their own magic can be used to heal/bolster/encourage them. Take the King and remove the Grail Knight limits, and watch as those experienced knights smash aside all and sundry.

If the Empire invades Bretonnia ... well, look at how it stands now. The Empire has tried before to expand past Axe Bite Pass (the only viable route into Bretonnia, unless the Empire wants to weary itself out by trudging over virtually impassable mountains to then fight a refreshed army) and failed. All the Bretonnians need to do is amass every knight, peasant, pegasi etc at the pass, and wait until Castle Montfort is destroyed, before charging in and dealing with the weakened army. We musn't forget that Castle Montfort has stood on it's own against Empire armies before, so backed by the full might of Bretonnia ... yeh.

Bretonnians might not hire mercenaries, and we might not have the technological advancements of the Empire (by choice, I might add) but that doesn't mean we're going to lie down easily. We have the blessing of the Lady to protect from such technology, and our Damsels can take any spell the Empire can, and most of all ... the Green Knight is immune to death, plague, magic etc in that he comes back time and time again, regardless. Watch him run riot!


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## Leman-russ (Mar 8, 2009)

empire if we exclude bodycount (population so who can withstand more attrition) 
empire will wins because of technology and army is more trained
yes bretonia have knights but they are like smal elite strike force
in all out war they are outguned and outnumbered


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## whYnoT (Nov 22, 2010)

The Empire hands down!!! Guns guns guns! Steam Tank, good quality footsoldiers, very capable knights, a good variety of mages, warrior priests! I might not be totally impartial because I'm working on a Emp army, but I think its pretty clear who would win. :wink:


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## Tezdal (Dec 6, 2010)

I voted for Bretonnia, as in they could win a war, not totally conquer the other side. Bret's have a far more cohesive government, without the long history of civil war and elector counts telling the Emperor to sod off(aside from a couple periods with Mousillion acting up). Bretonnia also has a larger navy (the strongest in the Old World according to fluff) and seems more geared for offensive war...when the King calls, knights come, when the Emperor calls....well the elector counts might send the majority of their forces, or might just send a token force.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

They may be more advanced, and larger, but then again, so was Araby, along with having the support of the Skaven, they vastly outnumbered the Breton's, yet they were still able to fight, not to mention Magically and Technologically Superior, in addition to their numbers.

The problem with the Large Empire is that it's politically divided - Lands which are under the control of a different Elector Count could be seen as forfeit as a rival "helps" out, but is just too late to save the Castle.

Along with the Blessing of the Lady, in fluff terms, I'd pretty much say that the Knights would have the win, as each Knight of the Realm is a Hero and Powerful Warrior in their own right, rather than just being a rich enough Son of a Landowner to join a Knightly Order.

Along with Noble Sons from say Carcassonne, who are tought to grasp a sword before they can walk, and Grail Knights who are along the lines of Chosen Chaos Knights in power (fluff wise) as opposed to one who simply kills in someones name. If it comes to Fortresses, the Capital of Montford is where the majority of the Knights fight on foot, many with experience fighting the Orcs in Hand to Hand combat.

Many have said that the weakness of the Empire is its reduced martial ability, trading it for reliance on Black Powder. While Peasants aren't up to much, with Support from the Knights and blessed by the lady, I'm sorry, I just don't think that State Troopers could hold on against them.


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

The Empire, hands down.
Assuming this is an all out war, not just a few border skirmishes, and it forces literally every province to send out all its military, (counting the Colleges of Magic, Engineers and Knightly Orders) and all of Bretonnia masses, then we vastly outnumber. Remember, we have a lot of variety in what we can bring out. I'm talking about the skilled, quiet and efficient Huntsmen of Hochland and Stirland, the insane and deadly contraptions of the College of Engineers, the massed ranks of highly trained soldiers of Altdorf, the incredibly varied destruction that the Colleges of Magic will unleash, the stables of the Imperial Zoo, the sheer ferocity of Middenheim, the guns of Nuln, the speed of the Knightly Orders, the sheer power of the Runefangs and Ghal Maraz, the blessings of the Warrior Priests, and of course the downright awesomeness of the Herstel-Wenckler Pigeon Bomb.
The Green Knight and the Grail Knights will be a problem, but I'm sure the Wizards and Engineers will find a way to deal with them. And State Troops beat plague-ridden peasants any day in my book.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If you're looking at Fluff and not game terms then Bret for the reasons Vaz has pointed out. When Lecour saddles up his Hippogryhf and says roll out, everyone rolls out. When Karl Franz does it the Elector Counts pontificate and consider how much support to send. Fluffwise Bretonnian knights are supposed to be badasses with Grail Knight being unbeleiveable badasses, cannon balls don't have the temerity to hit them.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> If you're looking at Fluff and not game terms then Bret for the reasons Vaz has pointed out. When Lecour saddles up his Hippogryhf and says roll out, everyone rolls out. When Karl Franz does it the Elector Counts pontificate and consider how much support to send. Fluffwise Bretonnian knights are supposed to be badasses with Grail Knight being unbeleiveable badasses, cannon balls don't have the temerity to hit them.


Dude, usualyl I usually agree with everything you say, but today you're just plain wrong. Brets are cool and all but the Empire has stood up to far worse than a Brettonian invasion. So they have Knights...and? That's it, if you compare a Brettonian Knight to a Chaos Knight then I would say with all his dark blessings, huge steeds, augmented weaponry the Chaos Knight is far more bad ass and the Empire stands up to them.

I agree that the Empire is fragmented but under Karl Franz it is a lot more cohesive than it has ever been. As a lover of all things gunpowder a cannonball to the face is going to do in most Knights, the green Knight may be impervious, but let's see how he stands up to a Sigmarite Hammer kissing him on the cheek.

If you imagine a load of Knights cresting an open hill running towards the Empire lines, they cross the hill and are faced with a horde of pikemen (an infantrymen's dream against cav), behind them is an Empire gunline, unleashing hell, coupled with spells blasting at them.

As someone has already said, there are dangers when comparing with the real world, but it's like comparing medieval France against Civil War England (on a technological scale).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Dude, usualyl I usually agree with everything you say, but today you're just plain wrong. Brets are cool and all but the Empire has stood up to far worse than a Brettonian invasion. So they have Knights...and? That's it, if you compare a Brettonian Knight to a Chaos Knight then I would say with all his dark blessings, huge steeds, augmented weaponry the Chaos Knight is far more bad ass and the Empire stands up to them.


You're looking in terms of gameplay here, I think. Knights of Sigmar/Ulric are sons of wealthy land owners who are sent to the Knightly Orders to earn glory for the family, and perhaps give them a sense of humility and get good graces with the church. They aren't blessed by the god whatsoever, despite being great warriors - and rarely are they trained from birth. And Chaos Knights munch them, as they are the Chosen of Chaos.

As opposed to a Knight of Bretonnia - at birth, they are trained and indoctrinated in the glory of the knighthood and quality in battle - often many claiming a lineage to Gilles the Uniter, and the need to prove themselves in battle. Araby has withstood Estalia and the Khemrian Undead, and it was only half the forces of the Breton which defeated the Daemonancer Sultan Jaffar - half of them took the land crossing instead of taking the sea crossing in the south of Estalia - those who went by land formed the Border Princes, and never even sw combat other than against the Greenskins of the Badlands.

So, you've got the Knights who crushed a millenia old civilisation supported by the Warpstone engines of the Skaven and the Daemons of the Desert (Djinn), and were vastly outnumbered and technologically and psychologically outclassed. However, Grail Knights have been chosen to be the greatest Knights of a Goddess, who have physically drank from her cup. Their weaponry and armour is blessed. 



> I agree that the Empire is fragmented but under Karl Franz it is a lot more cohesive than it has ever been. As a lover of all things gunpowder a cannonball to the face is going to do in most Knights, the green Knight may be impervious, but let's see how he stands up to a Sigmarite Hammer kissing him on the cheek.


Unless the Lady decides to take part in the battle - which unlike Sigmar, she does regularly. Check out the story of the battle on top of L'Anguille Lighthouse - where a Breton Lord defeated a Chaos Lord in single combat - said Chaos Lord being powerful enough to hold a horde together along the lines of Aelfric Cyenwulf, Surtha Lenk and Crom the COnqueror, each of which devastated Kislev or the settlements the length of the Old World before they were stopped - whereas Marcus (?) with the blessing of the Lady stopped them before they went further than the beachhead at L'Anguille.

Then there's the story of Gilles the Uniter - where he and several of his nearest and dearest single handedly defeated hordes of Greenskins, simply because the Lady wished it to be so.



> If you imagine a load of Knights cresting an open hill running towards the Empire lines, they cross the hill and are faced with a horde of pikemen (an infantrymen's dream against cav), behind them is an Empire gunline, unleashing hell, coupled with spells blasting at them.


If you imagine the horns of the Breton Knight Lances charging towards the Empire Lines on the finest warhorses supported by the blessing of the lady with Pegasus Knights and Hippogryffs hunting down the Gunlines, while the Empire lines are pounded by huge chunks of masonry thrown by Trebuchets, while Peasants whipped up to fight harder while in the presence of the greatest Knights of the Bretons and the blessing of the lady, yeah. Battle Tactics actually work both ways rather than just the most suitable for your case.



> As someone has already said, there are dangers when comparing with the real world, but it's like comparing medieval France against Civil War England (on a technological scale).


Tbh, it's more Dark Age Frankish against Middle Age HRE. While the Franks were unified in times of need (as opposed to the Normans, South Frank/North Aragonese, Gallic, or Romo-Frank which were apparent), the HRE was a collection of vassals - which no Emperor post Charlemagne managed to effectively govern. Karl Franz's reign is extremely fractured - extreme political maneuvering between the Countess of Nuln, and the counts of Ostland Talabecland and Ostermark are high after their relative contribution in the Storm of Chaos. Middenheim is out as Todbringer is representative of the cult of Ulric, but the other 4 suffered heavily, and as such are seeking recompense.

A King in Bretonnia is not settled by a Chinese, but rather by the Lady of the Lake herself (through the Fay Enchantress), and no Knight will go against her will - aside from Mallobaude the Black Knight of Mousillon - who has one hell of an epic background as well - is he the King's Son? Is he the Red Duke of Aquitaine reborn? Is he a Peasant Knight?


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## Kulzanar (Aug 10, 2010)

I think that when we're considering an all-out war where everyone pitches in, so no political debate and such or any failing to send troops. I see it happen to be a draw.

If you consider all the different units that both armies can pitch against eachother. The way I see it neither side will put their full strenght to bear since there are still other threats to be dealt with. Brettonnian lords close to the mountains will keep some knights back to protect their home from greenskins, and the same reason goes for Sylvannian troops (but then with VC).

When both armies clash, the empire will make great use of it's blackpowder weapons which will decimate quite a few knights (remember that the reloading actually takes long and the bret knights are fast) responded by trebuchets pegasus knights who are to destroy/distract the gunline and both will be blasted and protected by magic. I see fire wizards trying to blow them out of the sky, and damsels protecting them with life magic. This will create a gap and after a few volleys the gunline will lose its purpose and then that's when the empire has the choice to either counter with their knightly orders, or hide their state troops behind defensive positions (taking on brets without any is just wacko and no general would be worthy of command not doing this) to take the momentum away from the knights of bretonnia. When the knights hit home, the first rank will die from defensive positions but soon these positions will be overrun by the amount of knights and peasants coming up from behind the knights who now have great courage seeing how the gunline lost its usefullness.

Peasant bowmen and empire crossbowmen/archers will fire volley after volley into the masses, killing hundreds. First the knights of brettonnia will carve through the state troops as the packed mass and the momentum of those behind them will carry them forward, eventually they'll be tarpitted and forced to take out their swords/morning stars/... and smash in some skulls. Here I see the empire halberdiers and spearmen taking a great toll of the knights and peasants because of their organized and disciplined ranks. I see grail knights and questing knights step forth together with paladins and lords to carve their way through this threat. At the same time the Empire will let their knightly orders charge forth, sweeping the flanks of the peasants almost bringing an entire rout to the peasant forces which are now only held upright by the knights in front of them. The pegasi will still be in the air, blasted/protected by magic although a bit less now since attention on the battlefield is elsewhere, they will play a key role helping the bret force where needed. Then you'll have a situation where the empire's infrantry is at breaking point but so are the peasants from the empire's flank attack. It is then that the carnage really will begin with priests of Sigmar and flagellants stepping forth from the ranks and doing a last stand against the knights. Some of the empire knights will now have reached the peasant bowmen and wreak havoc upon them, (arch) lectors protecting them from magic. The rest of the empire knights will charge forth to the bret knights which will be counter-charged by the bret knights in the rear rank, possibly trampling friendly peasants, but oh well.

I think this will end up in a huge slaughterparty, state troops and peasants will have fled by now, and the last remaining troops being a bunch of bretonnian knights of all sorts, including quite a few grail knights, some empire knights from the orders but nearly not the amount with which they started, some flaggellants and priests and steam tanks perhaps as well but probably badly damaged and no more able to participate in the battle, either the generals (or king and emperor who might have done an epic air fight) are both alive, death or one lives the other is death. From then on one side will win but I dare not say which. But in the end it all comes down to one thing, the victor will realise they have wasted a huge if not their whole army for this battle and do not have the martial prowress to then lay siege to the castles and cities nor to control the population. They will back down and retreat to their home but then be a very valuable target for other invasions.

So, in the long run, Bretonnia doesn't win, the Empire doesn't win but the Orcs win since they can now invade bretonnia almost unchallenged and Chaos or Vampire Counts win. The next time Chaos sacks Praag they will be able to march to the main city of Kislev unchallenged and from there into the empire. Vampire Counts will swarm Sylvannia with their undead legions and march ever further. And the Skaven will probably decide this is the right time and emerge from the cities to take them over. So in the end there will be no more disputes between bretonnia and empire but between VC, Skaven, Orcs and Chaos. And Should the Empire fall, the Dwarves will lock themselves up in their holds and it'll be just a matter of time before they're gone as well.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

The only way I can vote is to have clarification of who the aggressor is. If the Bretts attack the Empire, Bretts will lose. If the Empire attacks the Bretts ... Empire lose. It matters not who has the bigger army or who can field the most equipped warriors, it boils down to who has the most to lose. The aggressor is fighting to gain lands, the victim is fighting for the life of all of those that they hold dear as well as themselves, heroic deeds would happen, and losing would not be an option.


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## Brother Arnold (Aug 29, 2010)

Well, the Empire should place a bunch of guns in their keeps and fortresses on Gisoreux Gap if they're attacking. Then they can fall back to the forts if they're being beaten, and when the Brets pursue them *boom*. And the same if Brets are attacking, except the Empire's at full strength if they get through Gisoreux.
Also, the ST would hold up a lot better than that Kulzanar. Especially with all the greatest heroes of the Empire amongst them. They're better trained than Bretonnian peasants, even if they aren't more numerous. I'm not buying this "the Brets would win because the Lady wants them to" crap, Sigmar and Ulric would be watching this war too since it's their entire nation at war. There's a ton of Knightly Orders in the Empire, and they're all united. None of those feuds and rivalries that the Bretonnians all have for the most part. Maybe to a minor extent between Templar Grand Masters, but not as much as the Brets. This could overcome any outnumbering the Brets have. The capitals of Knightly Orders are KO. Is this a hint about their awesomeness?
And Steam Tanks are a lot more resilient than that. They'd be destroyed only through really flukey shots that get through the vision slits in the sides and kill the Engineer Commanders. And on this scale they'd probably have apprentices with them to take control in case of that, if they're smart.


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## Kulzanar (Aug 10, 2010)

Yes the state troops are very well trained but still, when considering they're attacked by a mass of charging knights, they won't hold them off untill they broke the momentum and then as I said, if you read back, the spearmen and halberdiers will kill a lot of knights mostly because of their weapon range and grouping agains the knight. When they get dismounted their surviving chances go down rapidly unless they can remain upright and take some with them. And those that are upright are fluffwise considered to be able to handle a quite a handfull of statetroops, and then you may not forget that the brets will have carved a hole in the ranks of the statetroops which is then filled by peasants storming in from behind the knights, ofcourse the statetroops will show their best and they are fluffwise the finest infrantry of man and they will show the brets what is meant by that. But I do not see them winning that on their own just through discipline. I notice many people are quite one-sided on their choice, not even giving the other a slim chance of victory. Please do not forget that fluff in the armybooks is always praising about the army in the book. You need to put one and one together and use some basic forms of strategics and logics (yes, quite possible in a fantasy universe, we're not trying to explain how hippogryphs are born but the result of a combat situation between normal men)

I also don't believe the "protected by the lady" stuff, since you pointed it out, Ulric and Sigmar are watching too. That's why I see Sigmar and Ulric priests giving the brets some hell. Maybe even going toe to toe with the grail knights which would end in an immense battle not only between two mighty warriors but also between two religions. And furhter more, I think the blessing of the lady is produced through the damsels who will ride in the center of the knights and protect them with magic as good as possible and will try to nulify incoming projectiles and offensive spells to their best attempts, not that it all will succeed. 

About the steam tanks, I consider them not destroyed but damaged or disabled. I see wizards with the lore of life using the nature against it to block the wheels, or their systems. And even rocks thrown from the trebuchets buckling the armour and denting it. They won't get destroyed, but I wouldn't shoot with a dented cannon for example so that just leaves ramming, while on wooden wheels. 

The knights of Bretonnia might have their feuds but will unite when the whole country is called to war. When in name of Gilles de Breton then they'll move mountains to do what must be done. And the knightly orders aren't that numerous, they're a select group that's hard to join. No matter how you spin it, bretonnia has more knights, especially since every damn nobleman couldn't keep his hands home and has an offspring of 7 or 8 kids. Throwing the knightly orders headlong against the Brets would indeed be painfull for the brets but also be the end of the knightly orders, untill they start recruiting again. Since the orders are there for a reason I also sincerely doubt their full might will be present at a battle against Bretonnia. The raven knights for example have better things to do then killing Brets, there's some vampires that need to be kept in check. I think the knights of Ulric will be most present but still quite a number of them will be up and about the empire, killing other foul creatures that still stalk the lands, same goes for the knights panthers. Knights of the blazing sun and the reiksguard will be present with a lot of their members. In contrast to any political feuds of which I said shouldn't be an issue these knights actually have a task outside of their own interests. Many will easily see that it's no use in fighting brets to then return home and notice some villages have been raided by trolls, orcs or beastmen. Mostly the followers of Ulric and Sigmar will have been driven into a religious zeal to crush the blasphemers and so on.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Empire all the way. but a fact to consider is time. the empire is only 50 years away from a 18 centry technolgy base. when they go all musket the brets are doomed. 

plate main cant stop bullets and judgeing by there inventness they need to worry about things like Gatling guns (hand cracked machine guns) and Puckle guns (gaint 37mm 11 shot revolvers) in the face of this kind of techonlgy the bretons are doomed, the only question is what will the provence be called.


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## SirAether (Jan 10, 2011)

Got to go with Empire on this one.


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## Theripontigonus (Dec 13, 2009)

I would say empire for a few reasons. First, somebody said earlier that the Lady would actively take part, where Sigmar would not. Im not sure if you actually read the fluff, cause he certainly does. In previous editions the whole reason to take Karl Franz was the fact that for one turn Sigmar would come and posses him, turning him into the most retarded character in the game for a turn with a 10 for all stats. It was even backed up by the fluff in both the rulebook and the Empire book at the time. So clearly, that argument is moot.

Second, I dont quite understand how a castle would really stop the empire from invading Brettonia if they set their minds to it. Cannons folks. Im pretty certain they could take out the walls in short order, and with the sheer amount of artillery that the empire has at its disposal, they could shell the defenders without even having to get close. It wouldn't be nearly as bad as if the Brettonians had to try and lay siege to en empire fortification. 

Third, I think that people dont quite understand the worth of state troops. In game terms sheer numbers would eventually wear down the knights. In a historical light, well trained foot almost always defeated horsemen. The romans built their empire on it. The Swiss mercenaries of the renaissance built a reputation for it. In Machiavelli's discourses on Livius he goes over the same argument. While a horse is a great shock factor, its not going to do much when confronted by a couple of spears braced on the ground.

Fourth, given time to prepare the battleground an empire army would be able to create ditches or palisades of stakes that would be incredibly helpful against the knights. If the Brettonians were given that same time it would do little in their favor. They could dig ditches for their peasants, but for them to be effective they would have to leave them and begin the long walk through the artillery of the empire anyways. The knights benefit from a wide open battlefield, but if the empire can stall them with something like flagellants or a a large unit of state troops, their flank is exposed and they have little offensive capability in prolonged combat.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

I totally agree with Theripontigonius, the Empire war machine is built for large combats against large armies, they have such a mixed bag of units that you can pick anything in the Bret army and have a defence against it. We have wandered into the realm of using history to explain fantasy but if ever there was an example of Knights getting boned, just look at Agincourt, loads of absolutely insanely bad ass knights in the best and latest war gear in the medieval world at that time, bogged down and killed by lightly armoured mental English Longbowmen wielding hammers. 

To sum up Brets are just too one sided to win against the Empire. Coupled with the fact that state troops are vastly superior to the inbred peasants, and when all the knights are dead (which will happen as they are nobility so there aren't that many of them), the Empire will win.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There are litereally thousands upon thousands of Bretionian Knights and Errants. Agincourt was a tactical disaster by the french, Foot knights in a marsh going uphill. In addition Trebuchets are the last word in anti-castle weaponry. The Empire don't seem to have siege cannons. 

You're theroycrafting too much using the abilities of the units in games. Reading though the fluff will show you it will be a lot closer than you give Brets credit for. I don't think we can make the assumptions that Empire will be tactical geniuses whilst the brets will simply ride towards the in single file getting gunned down. I believe that is pressed in an all out war the Bretoinians would win.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm never going to agree that a non-blackpowder war machine could ever stand up to an artillery barrage.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm never going to agree that a non-blackpowder war machine could ever stand up to an artillery barrage.


I think again you are over estimating an 'Artillery Barrage', Trebuchets were designed for knocking down castles not for use against infantry. Mortars and Cannons the size we see the empire use are for anti-infantry/cav and light fortifications. There's no useful comparison Trebuchet Vs Cannon as they're for different purposes.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I think again you are over estimating an 'Artillery Barrage', Trebuchets were designed for knocking down castles not for use against infantry. Mortars and Cannons the size we see the empire use are for anti-infantry/cav and light fortifications. There's no useful comparison Trebuchet Vs Cannon as they're for different purposes.


When I say "War Machine" I don't mean in the GW literal sense of a war machine, I mean in the historical sense of "a way of making war". You've just agreed with me entirely, Brets have Trebuchets which are about as accurate as pissing in the wind and the Empire have artillery specifically designed to kill the type of units that the Brets field. So in order to get close enough to kill that artillery the Brets are going to have to weather the storm.


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## .Kevin. (Jan 10, 2011)

I'd like to say Bretonnia in the game especially but fluff wise too much guns from the Empire.

The name says alot an EMPIRE vs Bretonnia being more of a region


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> When I say "War Machine" I don't mean in the GW literal sense of a war machine, I mean in the historical sense of "a way of making war". You've just agreed with me entirely, Brets have Trebuchets which are about as accurate as pissing in the wind and the Empire have artillery specifically designed to kill the type of units that the Brets field. So in order to get close enough to kill that artillery the Brets are going to have to weather the storm.


Trebuchets where actually incredibly accurate war machines, just took a while to fire so more useful against static structures. The Brets would weather the storm, but seeings how they can just will cannonballs not to hit them that's pretty sweet. They also have loads of flying horses just for this task. 

The resolution of this is nothing to do with forces in the field. According to the fluff, man for man the Brets are the better Army. It's weather or not Karl Franz can rally all the Elector Counts to his banner quickly enough. The Empire is bigger and can throw more bodies at the problem, using superior numbers combined with technology to win. The problem is the Elector Counts are notoriously fickle in the fiction. It's the lack of Unity of the Empire which is their undoing in the fiction.


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## Gaius Marius (May 15, 2011)

I'm giving it to the Empire. 

Bretonnia's knights are much better than their Imperial counter parts, but the rest of their army is badly lacking. Their infantry are pure shit, badly armed, badly trained and are only led by whatever knight happens to have a lame horse on the day of the battle. In terms of fire rate and power their siege engines are inferior to the Empire and would be much harder to aim in a battle. Given the reaction the Bretonnians had to the Chaos hell cannons in Knight of the Realm they really have no idea of what gun powder weapons do to castles

When it comes to a long war, Bretonnia is at a major disadvantage. The number of Knights is very limited and their fighting style of charging infantry, and this time it will be well drilled, pole arm and gun wielding infantry means they'll take major casualties. There are fewer Bretonnian peasants to begin with in comparison to the Empire, not counting the fact that roughly half of the Bretonnian peasant population is too retarded/deformed/ to even use weapons as a result of inbreeding.

If the Empire can bludgeon its way through the passes that act as choke points then there's no reason they can't utterly flatten


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Ive gone for the empire as I think the empire has too many shiney toys for the bretonnians to cope with.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I am not sure but a charge of Bretonnian knights is something to behold!!!


Doc


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

Gaius Marius said:


> I'm giving it to the Empire.
> 
> Bretonnia's knights are much better than their Imperial counter parts, but the rest of their army is badly lacking. Their infantry are pure shit, badly armed, badly trained and are only led by whatever knight happens to have a lame horse on the day of the battle. In terms of fire rate and power their siege engines are inferior to the Empire and would be much harder to aim in a battle. Given the reaction the Bretonnians had to the Chaos hell cannons in Knight of the Realm they really have no idea of what gun powder weapons do to castles
> 
> ...


:goodpost: I've got to side with the Empire on this one, though I do love my Bretts.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I vote for a stalemate with the carrion eaters as the only victors


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

I voted empire for war machines & bulk alone.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Some one may have said this but after getting half way down page two....
Lets have a big tournement going on! everyone pit their brets against someone's empire and post up the results


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

In a straight one on one confrontation I gotta go with The Empire. They have the artillery that Bretonnia lack, they can call upon more resources and they have Karl Franz, perhaps the greatest leader of men the Old World has ever seen. They would probably overwhelm Bretonnia eventually (although the victory may be pyrrhic). It would be one hell of a fight though. Then afterwards my minions of the Dark Gods can come in, rip what's left of the both of you to pieces and use the remains of your people in disrespectful marionette shows.


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## Averlan (9 mo ago)

I said Brettonia, but honestly I feel like the attacking side would lose period. Which everone attacked the other would lose. The battle of montfort supports this, a vastly out number Brettonian force held off the empire's army along wiht mercenaries until the province of Parravan showed up with reinforcements. one of the largest battles between the 2.

Also as far as cannons, if only the Brettonians had some sort of fast moving mobile flying cavalry like Pegasus knights. Cannons jsut can't fire when they crews are fighting Pegasus knights.

On the other hand if Brettonia attacked into the Empire; the castles would provide the empire army with what they needed to win.

Besides either one doing a full scale assault on the other is stupid as Chaos,vampires and Orcs would destroy their country. In the case of the empire since it is so large, i doubt they even get to attack before losing half thier country in the north if they tried to mobilize everything.


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