# ASF and High Elves: Opinions



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Now, whether it's balanced or not, I feel this is gamebreaking and against certain factions causes them to play in very underhanded/crap ways in order to be competitive.

Now in Warhammer, I've always been of the opinion that there are two major tactical aspects to the movement phase, the movement phase being the most tactical aspect of Warhammer. There is the maneuvering for a charge aspect, to ensure you get the devastating first blow and there is the flanking/surrounding aspect...

I feel, that having ASF for an entire army, basically negates half of the tactics of the game and as a result, I've seen elves just run forwards at top speed in a wreck less manner which just breaks a lot of the enjoyment of the game for me. If GW didn't see how game breaking this was then they really have fallen off of the path since I started collecting some 14 years ago.

This ability, is a rarely available/given ability which often has one item/one special character per entire army with it, due to the power of the ability.

Now with the tomb kings the game is winnable, as I can shoot the swordsmen apart before they reach me, but with skaven for example, the game becomes near unwinnable, I lost combats where I had hit the swordsman group from 3 sides at once and still lost the combat (20 swordsmen 23 attacks doing 11-12 kills on average, with me attacking back with about 6 attacks....killing one). This was a simultaneous 3 unit charge in one turn, and the sad thing, is that due to ASF for HE it's more than possible to win such an engagement against horde armies. So I'm left with the other option, of spamming warlocks and ratling guns or getting mopped.....fun.

Anyways, what are other people's opinions on High Elves, un-biast if possible rather than self motivated .


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't play Fantasy, but I've enough knowledge to be able to play, if I owned an army. it seems to me though, that it's not that different to 40k in this aspect however. The High Elves are in many ways the Space Marines - the baseline for other armies, the most balanced, and the game designers' coup. 

It also seems that the armies are heading in this general direction - the Dark Elves getting their Eternal Hatred rule, Warriors and Daemons of Chaos being generally great...and being slightly more flexible in terms of competitive variations. HEs don't have to be run that way to beat other armies, it's a choice by the player, whereas the older lists, Skaven, Beasts of Chaos, Brettonia, etc, have to be run a particular way to compete with the newer armies. Slightly unfair, yes, but, in the medium term (long term of course being into the next edition) better overall if it brings more variety into the game.

Like I said though, thats from the outside looking in, I've a different perspective than most if not all Fantasy players...


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

Its no where near as much of a problem as you suggest. Try some better tactics. The following things really hurt elves:

-impact hits
-shooting, warmachines
-magic missiles
-charging with highly durable units

Skaven have probably the MOST efficient way of dealing with things like swordsmasters - warp lightning. You pay points to have exactly str5 hits, that is just enough for 2+ to wound and to negate their 5+ save. It's ideal. Same with jezzails. Obviously ratling guns and warpfire throwers are right up there too.


----------



## Erie Ed (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't think almost every unit for HE should be ASF, imo they need to limit it to either core choices, or rare/special choices.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaul said:


> Its no where near as much of a problem as you suggest. Try some better tactics. The following things really hurt elves:
> 
> -impact hits
> -shooting, warmachines
> ...


You missed the part where I said I charged his flank, rear and front simultaneously and still lost, but apparently a 3 way charge at once is bad tactics? I'm sorry but no other unit would be able to win in that situation.

Not all armies have 'durable' units, many armies, hoard armies especially have no high toughness/high armour units which will survive to fight back. For dwarves against elves it's fine, dwarves are designed to strike last. Skaven are not.

I also mentioned 'without resorting to cheap tactics'. I could spam warlocks and ratling guns and just anihilate his army before it gets to me, but that isn't in the least fun. There isn't much that can be done to the skaven that isn't just blasting them which will balance skaven against HE.

Tomb Kings it's basically spam arrows/catapaults and hope to kill units like swordmasters before they make it to you, because once they do you aren't going to kill them unless they're shrunk significantly, even Ushabti have trouble against swordmasters at what, a quarter of the price per model? It's ridiculous. I have broken even against SM with a flank charging Ushabti/Spearskele combo and eventually lost that combat. White lions are hardly better S6 always strike first? Least they only have one attack. 

The main gripe I have, is with elves there's no penalty if you get charged. If you cover your flanks you can wrecklessly move forwards without fear.

It's complete and utter tripe. The problem I have with your 'solution' to the skaven problem, is skaven have a single way to beat HE, but this only way for victory guarantees them victory, if they don't do it, they're guaranteed defeat, rock paper scissors anyone? Complete and utter stupidity on behalf of GW.

Edited: Please do not post individual costs of models, it is against forum rules - squeek


----------



## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

If you charged him in the back, in the flank, AND in the front, there is no way in hell you should have lost. Yes he will strike first but you will outnumber him, and have a rear bonus(+2), and flank bonus(+1) and a rank bonus (presumably +3). I can't remember off the top of me head though if the bonuses for Rear and Flank charges stack. And you would also negate his rank bonus for charging him in the flank and rear. You are already up +5 or +6(depending on if Flank/Rear bonuses stack) in Combat Resolution. Unless you charged with Skinks or Goblins, I don't see Strength 3 Elves killing 6 guys, let alone every model in the front rank of three DIFFERENT units. There is no way you should have lost that combat, I just don't see that happening.

As for High Elves and Always Strike First, I think it is a balanced rule. High Models are a little bit more expensive because of it. It's not as bad as people seem to think it is.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Grik said:


> If you charged him in the back, in the flank, AND in the front, there is no way in hell you should have lost. Yes he will strike first but you will outnumber him, and have a rear bonus(+2), and flank bonus(+1) and a rank bonus (presumably +3). I can't remember off the top of me head though if the bonuses for Rear and Flank charges stack. And you would also negate his rank bonus for charging him in the flank and rear. You are already up +5 or +6(depending on if Flank/Rear bonuses stack) in Combat Resolution. Unless you charged with Skinks or Goblins, I don't see Strength 3 Elves killing 6 guys, let alone every model in the front rank of three DIFFERENT units. There is no way you should have lost that combat, I just don't see that happening.
> 
> As for High Elves and Always Strike First, I think it is a balanced rule. High Models are a little bit more expensive because of it. It's not as bad as people seem to think it is.


Allow me to explain with statistics:

Swordsmasters:
Str: 5
Att: 2

Unit 5x4 Grid:
= 5+3+3 Swordsmasters attacking
= 22 attacks +1 champ = 23 attacks total.
They got 11 kills. (average for them in this case would be 10.0188).

I have 6 on the front and 5 on either side, for a total of 16, I lose 11 of my models giving me 5 left to fight back, with a 50% chance to wound and hit.
I will kill on average one elf and I did.

So let's do a tally of combat resolution:
Me:
Ranks: 3
Rear: 2
Flank: 1
Kills: 1
Standard: 1
Outnumber : 1
Total: 9

Him:
Kills: 11
Standard: 1

His victory: 2

NOTHING else in the game would have survived so many charges at once. This ASF rule, basically gave this elf unit the advantage as if it had just charged 3 units simultaneously . It also pretty much completely negates cavalry.

As for using chariots to counter High Elves? Good luck on making that cost effective.

I have skaven and tomb kings, My chariots cost enough each so I need to kill 3 swordsmasters to get that back, impact hits at d3 S4....lol.

This new rule is complete shite, just admit it .

If they were spears they would be strength 3, but they're swordsmasters, they have two attacks and are strength 5 and don't cost much for it. Their ASF rule applies to their great weapons also naturally.....

It's just a case of Gamesworkshop tailoring the rules to sales again, make a popular team powerful so they can up the sales like they did with space marines for awhile (or still do?).

Try using any of the armies that are either lightly armoured or cavalry based against elves, your only option is ranged weaponry, fie upon you if you don't have that....

FYI Lizardmen have woeful initiative and lower speed than elves, they would usually always strike last anyways, they are MEANT to strike last, so they are hardly a relevant means of comparison to whether the new rule is/isn't balanced. 

What this ultimately means, is I will just refuse to play skaven versus HE at all, period. No point, it's either his fun or mine and I'm not playing games that end up like that.

Edited: Do not post individual points costs of models, it is against forum rules - squeek


----------



## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Being a High Elf player myself, I completely agree with you. ASF as an army-wide rule is more of a burden than anything else to HE players that actually move their units. Obviously, GW didn't give us that rule for free, so I'm paying for ASF on units that I have no intention of ever getting into close combat (Mages, Archers, RBT Crewmen, etc.) so my army is weighed down by points I neither wanted to or needed to spend. I could understand ASF on our special troops, even as a purchasable option, but not from citizen levy-troops like Spearelves and Archers; I know elves are supposed to be fast, but giving ASF to a model whose profession is something other than total war just astounds me.

Without upgrades, I pay 110 points for a unit of 10 Archers that *rarely win their points back*. 110 points for 10 models without armor, any special rules other an a highly situational one and ASF!!! So far, their kill record is two Sarus, one Skink, three Black Guard skeletons and one or two Zombies; obviously, not all in one game. I only take Archers to fill out my Core requirements.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing with my High Elves, because I do. All I'm saying is that I'd sacrifice ASF in order to put a few more troops on the field. Also, I don't want to pay so goddamn much for a scroll caddy.


----------



## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

I wasn't talking about my Lizardmen, even though they are tough. And I do apologize, against Swordmasters with strength 5 it is very deadly. But for basic troops or the majority of Elves who are strength 3, I really haven't seen it make that much of a difference. It's more of an annoyance.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

It may just be that the current craze for HE around here is max out swordmasters....heh

Sorry for the rant...I just find it to be gamebreaking in terms of the tactical maneuvering aspects of gameplay. For some armies it means very little, for others, i.e. skaven, it invalidates an entire aspect of them (close combat for example).


----------



## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

I dont have a problem with HE having ASF. Its not gamebreaking just because you dont like the strategy to deal with it (you dont have to spam the guns to break down T3 heavy armored elves...). The swordmasters are footsloggers, so avoid them, or shoot them. Skaven are due for a new book soon, I'd expect a tasty powercurve boost.

When I have swordmasters to deal with with my empire, I will
A. shoot them to whittle them down
B. NOT charge in my detachments (just lets more masters get attacks in) unless the swordmasters only have 2 or 3 ranks left. 
Dont add meat to his blender.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

you charged a unit of 20 swordmasters with ANY units? That was just plain foolishness... if your opponent is foolish enough to take a list with that kind of unit, you don't just hand your ass to him on a plate. Shoot it, don't charge it.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I find it kind of imbalanced that a unit made up of relatively cheap models is able to rape almost everything in the entire warhammer world that's of the same size and not a character. In fact I doubt there is ANYTHING else that would've survived that triple charge scenario without running away, their massively overpowered nature is due to ASF. If they keep it with their great weapons, they need a points increase at the very least. Units like them basically invalidate cavalry.

As for skaven I can't see what is really going to improve them against high elves, white lions, swordsmasters, asf for an awesome combo. The skaven army will end up relying upon destructive magic and ranged weaponry and avoiding combat at all costs, especially against elves.

Flanking and intelligent maneuvering is now a thing of the past if your opponant plays high elves.

My knew strategy will become hit table with bat, it solves all .

Elves aren't exactly slow either, swordsmasters can kind of cover the table relatively quickly with a movement of 5 and you can't always avoid them, comments like that make me wonder if some people even play warhammer of just 40k.

And FYI I won my games against the pointy ears so the L2P comments really, really aren't necessary.

It was the fact that I had to resort to crappy tactics to win which I hated.

Edited: As above, individual points costs aren't allowed - squeek


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

_I'm going to follow my last post up with an analysis of why you lost, and an explanation of a way you could win in the same situation if you planned better. It can be done without resorting to shooting. Read on, you might learn something._

In warhammer, combats have two dynamics - actual damage inflicted, and static combat res. By simultaneously giving three sides of his large unit of swordmasters things to strike at, you were actually generating combat res for him. Your big static res from the multi-charge was totally overwhelmed by the damage he caused, and you should have known that before charging him. Here's how it works:

Unit in the side = +1 for flank
Unit in the other side = +0 because you have the other flank already
Unit in the rear = +2 for rear
Overall = Breaking his ranks (-3)

But he gets far more than the net +6 in pure kills because you've allowed 11 of his models to fight... and they are models with better weapon skill, strength and attacks than yours. I can't over-emphasize how much of a mistake it was to charge him like this, so yes it is in fact a *bad tactic*. 

*Here's how you could have done it.*

You charge in the flank ONLY with a unit of 20 clanrats. Your clan rats have 2-3 assassins in it. The assassins leap out, striking before the swordsmasters as they also have ASF, but you beat him on initiative. Charging in the flank negates his ranks, gives you +1, but you only engage 4 of his models as opposed to the 5 that you would engage if you charged his rear. Even two naked assassins are likely to get 2 kills, leaving him with only 2 models to attack back. Say he gets three wounds, you have your ranks, outnumber, and a +1 for flanking. You win the round. To be even more certain of victory, tool up your assassins, and give the clanrats a warbanner or something similar.

20x swordsmasters + Full command = 330 points

20x Clanrats + Full command + War banner + 2x Assassins = 360

Fairly close in points! But since you break his unit, you've now got a chance to attack the rest of his army with your stuff. If it were me, I would take just the one assassin, kill half his guys with shooting, then charge the flank where he would have 2 on the side, and kill them with a tooled up assassin.

Edited: Please do not post individual points costs of items like the war banner - squeek


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hmm... never played HE but I'm really struggling for tactics. Ogre shooting is just rubbish. I know people will tell me that leadbelchers are great (and potentially they are) except that I've so far rolled more then 50% misfires with them.
I know more people will say that with almost all my units able to do impact hits I may in fgact be the ideal army to kill HE... but they're wrong. Any clever/experienced HE player will move to within 6" and deny me the bull charge

-other then that most of my army is T4 5+ or 6+ save... I'll take loads of wounds off SM and cant really stop it. Gnoblars might be my only hope (oh god its worse then i thought)


----------



## Arcanum (Feb 17, 2009)

Personally i don´t like the asf army wide rule either but i can deal with it on the table top. Since i play dark elves so i can spam S3 shooting to kill them and i never charge them with anything not even charaters and monsters.


i don´t play skaven but i would probaly use a couple of ratling guns to kill the unit. I know they are unreliable but the few times i have played skaven i had great succes with them.


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Just a general note to all posters. Please do not post individual points costs of items, models or upgrades. It is against forum rules - squeek

Personally I don't regard armywide ASF as broken, it just requires a different approach to play against in my opinion. As Captain Galus points out, there are plenty of units where the auto extra points for ASF are virtually impossible to win back in standard games. In effect ASF as an armywide rule is actually not as competitive as allowing it as a bought option for Specials, if this were the case then your SMoH, PG and DP would all still have ASF for the same cost. The difference being that the parts of the army where ASF is useless wouldn't buy it, so there would be more points for extra SMoH, etc. So please don't ask GW for that option if you think armywide ASF is too powerful.

I would also regard a unit of 20 SMoH as a massive points sink and quite uncompetitive. Most HE players take SMoH in units that consist of 1 or 2 ranks, they are far too expensive to have as SCR troops and are laughably easy to kill with ranged or magic attacks. Your normal unit of SMoH would be maybe 7 in a single rank, devastating and cheap!

A unit of 20 SMoH is the classic eggs in one basket Deathstar, instead of multi-charging you and using something cheaper for SCR, or fast to negate your SCR, the HE player is relying on an expensive choice to provide its own SCR which would normally be regarded as a bad decision. ASF does mean they can just advance that block of 20 SMoH at you and ignore things like charging and flanking, so in this case it does make this player lazy. So take advantage of that.

As Vaul says, don't put more models in combat than you need to, if you do you are just cancelling out your opponents mistake at taking redundant troops. The way SMoH win combat is by each model in combat being highly likely to take out a T3 opponent, so as you pointed out you wont get much chance to strike back. So build a unit to take the SMoH. Use assassins, use the banner of the swarm (or the war banner) to boost your SCR, think about taking a few items specifically for the SMoH deathstar like a brass orb or the warp scroll.

You may also need to decide that the massive block of SMoH your opponent takes is just as bad as you taking lots of shooting to deal with it in this case, so it is fine for you to riddle it full of holes. Yes SMoH can move quick enough, but if you march block them they are just infantry so aren't going to go anywhere that fast, if you can keep a lid on their movement they might only get 1 or 2 combats in the entire game, as long as you don't feed him units you should be ok to weather that storm and they will not make their points back.

I don't wish to tell you how to suck eggs, but in this case the tactics you described above are flawed. Your opponents tactics in taking a huge block of SMoH are also flawed, so use it against them. SMoH are great in combat, pretty useless out of it, so only attack them with one unit at a time in CC and make the most of the other phases.


----------



## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

Squeek, Vaul, and Captain Gallus (and others, of course!) have this dead on.

Sword Masters are the penultimate Close Combat unit. They love to be enveloped by weak troops (Low Toughness, Low Armor, Low Wounds). This allows them to have fantastic odds of generating lots of Active Combat Resolution. As you've seen, they can certainly overpower Static Combat Resolution in the right circumstances.

As Vaul said, all you did was feed "meat to the grinder." As Vaul and Squeek disclosed, your best bet would be to just tie them up with a cheap unit to the front, or sick some assassins and their cohorts on the Sword Masters to the flank (made worthwhile from the extra combat resolution).

Your overall goal is to deny them the opportunity to optimize their potential. The High Elf players want their Sword Masters stuck in combat with a boat-load of junk units. Magic them, Shoot them, or tie them up to deny them this. There's also plenty more ways to confront the issue at hand, and as a Skaven player I'd imagine you could have plenty up your sleeve to surprise most stalwart Elf players!

White Lions are just as tough to bring down. They're Stubborn with the same save in CC, and hit like a ton of bricks. They specialize in fighting High Armor or Toughness troops. Deny them that ability, and you're golden. Oh, and Static Combat Resolution (they'll get +1 or +2 for ranks, +1 for banner, probably won't outnumber or anything of the like, and can deal out six attacks to the front maximum). Unleash the Hordes!

Phoenix Guard are the hardest to kill of all. Their Ward Save and Heavy Armor tends to keep them around for a long time. They cannot generate offensive damage, though. Their Halberds just aren't enough to tackle Hordes. You'll have to beat these guys with Static Combat Resolution here. Just don't get outnumbered.

I know you said you beat the High Elves before. What did you do to win? Since you won, why do you see it necessary to complain about the Sword Masters? Sure, they're nasty, but you overcame the rest of the army after all was said and done. We can all agree that they were a points sink in your specific situation, so did that have something to do with it, NagashKhemmler? Or did the rest of your tactics allow you to smash the Asur? Fill us in; we need some context so we can help you out better!

I hope this and everyone else's comments help, NagashKhemmler. Happy Hunting! :victory:


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaul said:


> _I'm going to follow my last post up with an analysis of why you lost, and an explanation of a way you could win in the same situation if you planned better. It can be done without resorting to shooting. Read on, you might learn something._
> 
> In warhammer, combats have two dynamics - actual damage inflicted, and static combat res. By simultaneously giving three sides of his large unit of swordmasters things to strike at, you were actually generating combat res for him. Your big static res from the multi-charge was totally overwhelmed by the damage he caused, and you should have known that before charging him. Here's how it works:
> 
> ...


You forget that assassins are a hero choice and in beating a single special choice of his, you have now used two hero choices? Come on that isn't even feasible and will leave you blown to pieces in the magic phase.

Well the point of my post wasn't as much about balance, as I initially said, although that was part of it.

My main point of contention was that it removed a large part of the tactics of warhammer. The HE players I see now move in what would be a suicidal manner for any army. I feel that the tactical aspects of the game are lessened by ASF.

I did what everyone said one should do against swordsmasters/white lions etc. I shot them to pieces with magic/ranged weapons which was all I could do really. After all my biggest point of contention is that the ASF rule completely invalidates certain units in certain armies more than anything has before, for example with my Tomb Kings the 'heavy' cavalry is useless, for a model which will be smashed, its biggest advantage neutralised (getting the charge first). I think this is a big issue and whilst I agree High Elves needed a buff from how they were before, this wasn't the right direction to take, giving a rare ability army wide? As a result of how many HE players there are in my local club, I've not basically maxed out ranged units with my two armies, taken almost no melee units or cavalry and to me, this is disapointing but it's all I can do to be competitive with their current rules.

Edited: Don't post individual points costs - squeek


----------



## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

I respect your point, NagashKhemmler. With some MathHammering, I can see why you're upset with the ability. But the fact is, army-wide ASF is there. We can create High Elf armies that drop the ASF as much as we want but the official publication states that High Elves have it.

So, at this point we can see that it's not an issue of wishing they didn't have it. Moreover, it's an issue of how to deal with it. *Do you agree?* Maybe we're still missing something?


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Ascendant Valor said:


> I respect your point, NagashKhemmler. With some MathHammering, I can see why you're upset with the ability. But the fact is, army-wide ASF is there. We can create High Elf armies that drop the ASF as much as we want but the official publication states that High Elves have it.
> 
> So, at this point we can see that it's not an issue of wishing they didn't have it. Moreover, it's an issue of how to deal with it. *Do you agree?* Maybe we're still missing something?


I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.


Like my tomb king cavalry? lol 4+ save, and quite expensive 

Edited: Don't post individual points costs - squeek


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

You lost because of bad generalship, not because of ASF.


----------



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Vaul said:


> You lost because of bad generalship, not because of ASF.


Against High Elves, that's always going to be the case.

Always Strikes First makes the army playable. If you look at the points per model for any given High Elf, you'll notice that they're almost invariably around or above 15 apiece, and they're T3, S3, and at best wearing heavy armor with no shield. In other words, they're very, very, very squishy. The only way that a small army that's so squishy could possibly be playable is if they get their licks in first, to offset either the return attacks making a mess of them, and help offset the fact that they're going to get outmaneuvered by more numerous armies.

Always Strikes First is really all the army has going for it, as far as special abilities go. Every army has something-- Wood Elves move and shoot without penalty, Dark Elves hate everybody, Orks have Choppas and the Waaagh!, Chaos re-rolls failed panic tests and has Eye of the Gods... I mean, in the grand scheme of things, Always Strikes First is pretty even as an army-wide ability goes.

If you can somehow take away ASF from the High Elves, you're going to roll them like a cuban cigar-- off the top of my head, there's only the ability the Herald of Nurgle can buy, but I could easily have missed something. If you also have a character that always strikes first, you'll probably get the jump on the High Elves, to boot-- it's an increasingly common magic item trait, it seems, and most characters that can take weapons like that have at least comparable initiative to the High Elves' elite troops. 

The other option is to plan to be defensive against the High Elves. Rather than try to exploit the fact that they're T3 and S3, try and make your guys tough enough by buying shields and armor if they don't come with it, and try to weather the attacks from the Elves so you can return it in spades. A unit of Dwarf Warriors, for example, can be given great weapons, but they also come with hand weapons and shields. Normally, giving them great weapons is a good call, but if you consider that a Dwarf Warrior has a 3+ armor save against S3 attacks in close combat, they can weather the 15 attacks that the High Elves' spearmen are going to throw at them. The return attacks will probably kill more elves than lost dwarfs, so it comes down to static resolution. When you factor in static resolution, the Elves are in bad shape, because there just aren't that many of them.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

NagashKhemmler said:


> I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.


You did have the bright idea of charging into the Front of Swordmasters when you already charged the Flank and Rear. You obviously don't know how to deal with it.

Changing your army doesn't have much to do with it. Styling your army to counter one leaves you weak to others, and you'll get more props for a single Tournament list.

Skaven aren't a combat army any way. The only reason you field Skaven Combat troops is to shield your guns.

As Son of Horus states, Army wide ASF is what makes such a fragile army playable. Yes, High Elves are defensive. But if your opponent is constantly sitting back with a gunline, you've got the tactical advantages of placing your own charges. He should use the ASF to fall back on, rather than as the basic for his plan.

Just a heads up, Horus, there are a few things that remove ASF - such as Chakax's shield, and the Amber Pendant for Wood Elves.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm painting up a high elf army as we speak. To be honest, I won't be relying on ASF with it at all! My dragon princes won't really be there for recieving a charge... they will likely lose if that happens. And my white lions will be my mage bunker. Everything else is chariots, range etc. I'm gonna be playing without any swordmasters or spearmen - the two units that make the best use of ASF. It's gonna be a good time.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I'm thinking that I would have to rely on luck if a unit of 20+ swordmasters came at my ogre line. Assuming they weren't stupid and moved to within 6" of my line I would have to throw as many units into teh fight as possible and try to get them failing one of the multiple fear tests... otherwise I'm likely to lose on static and dynamic res.

A flanking hunter might be good if he gets his harpoon launcher firing on a flank (S5 bolt thrower 36" range at BS4) 
Leadbelchers might do ok, 3 would average 5 kills on the SM but should take about 2 wounds off themselves doing it (and Im not that lucky with them)
A gnoblar scraplauncher would be awesome but my army isnt really large enough to have it in yet and thats relying on some serious luck to hit (even assuming my guessing of range is spot on, which it usually is).

I agree with the pointless griping of ASF taking taktics outta the game. An Ogre army shouyld depend on using MSU to outmanouver the enemy and getting multiple charges which smash through the SCR which they lack... but with HE they get to muller my ogres before they do anything: so long as you have the edge in magic (which HE really should) and get rid of my buffs wounding ogres is about as easy as it gets. At T4 and 4+ save max im a big squishy orc with relatively fewer attacks and no SCR.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ogres have Bull Charge. Use it. Ogres have Fear. Use it. Ogres have M6. Use it.


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

NagashKhemmler said:


> After all my biggest point of contention is that the ASF rule completely invalidates certain units in certain armies more than anything has before, for example with my Tomb Kings the 'heavy' cavalry is useless, for a model which will be smashed, its biggest advantage neutralised (getting the charge first).


Why would you even take TK Heavy Cavalry against High Elves? TK Heavy Cavalry aren't all that really, in almost all cases chariots are more useful as a general consensus. In this case you are actively dropping chariots that beat T3 ASF to a pulp with impact hits and taking a less appropriate choice.

It's pretty obvious that you don't like ASF, it is also true that _some_ players will abuse the nature of ASF and not bother with tactics. BUT you need to play against them and against ASF, not just pretend it doesn't exist as you will be disappointed when you choose unsuitable units and tactics to face off against them.

Yes, ASF does invalidate certain units to a point, however so do other armywide and unit specific rules. If someone takes no mages and you have 3 DS then you wasted lots of points, at least if you take a poor unit against HE it will do something, if only allow you to use it out of character and flatten war machines or archers. If you take Lore of Fire and your opponent has all Dragon Princes your magic is redundant. If you take a flying monster against a gunline army you are likely to get cannon sniped or spend the whole time hiding behind terrain. If you have a gunline and someone takes Gorgers or Wulfric you are in trouble.

This could go on _ad nauseum, _but the point is lots of armies have rules and units that require you to adapt your play to. It is like a large, more complex version of rock, paper, scissors. Doesn't matter how often you try to mob SMoH it wont work. So hit them with a rock!


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Ogres have Bull Charge. Use it. Ogres have Fear. Use it. Ogres have M6. Use it.


Against a poor opponent my bull charge will be enough to kill enough of the enemy front line for the combat to go my way. But a clever opponent wont let that happen- within 6" I dont get a bull charge (my ogres havent got their momentum up enough).
Fear is relying on luck- even with 3 units charging them a LD8 unit has a 38% chance of passing its fear tests. Thats an awefully big risk to take since if the enemy passes them you just lost 3 units of ogres 
M6 just gives you the charge... important vs any other army but not HE. Ogres are normally too squishy to survive being charged... ASF just plays on that weakness.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You did have the bright idea of charging into the Front of Swordmasters when you already charged the Flank and Rear. You obviously don't know how to deal with it.
> 
> Changing your army doesn't have much to do with it. Styling your army to counter one leaves you weak to others, and you'll get more props for a single Tournament list.
> 
> ...


You forgot Vaz that I won all of my battles against HE, that doesn't mean ASF is any more fair/good.

I've been playing warhammer for 14 years leave your comments at the door please.

Forgive me for doing something which would have otherwise ALWAYS worked, as I said previously, there is nothing else which would survive being charged from 3 sides simultaneously and won. Aside from a ridiculously tooled up mega unit worth well in excess points wise of the swordmasters point cost.

It's a saddening trend in GW games and games online of making things massively powerful to entertain the little kiddies, at least that's the theory. It no longer suffices to have a unit with S3 T3 and a simple ability. Every single unit seems to have a need to 'pwn' everything, everything needs some ultra ability.

If people looked at the main theme of my post and answered that in preference to telling me how shit a player I am (not everyone did but there was a few ego stroakers about). It was actually anger at how ASF had broken tactical aspects of the game.

FYI, the people stating elves need ASF or they get smashed, who needs to l2p now?

M5, faster than most armies out there besides cavalry.....
Highest/Tie For Highest mainline initiative out there. You strike first almost always as it is. All ASF does is reward incompetent generalship. GOOD high elf players rarely got charged, except by cavalry, I hardly see why my cavalry should be rendered obsolete against an entire army list.

As for the impact hits of the chariots TK chariots do D3 S4 hits, they won't get you far and aren't worth their points against HE. 

Let's do a little math grinding shall we? If we assume the mega 20 model unit:

2 Chariots in the flank get impact hits, for an average of 3 hits (1.5 per die) 3+ to wound, on average aproximately 2 wounds. Odds are they won't save. High elves fight back and rape the chariots. SCR or the damage they would do to my SCR unit will easily destroy the rest of the chariot unit. I had used the impact hits of the chariots before in an attempt to counter ASF, TK chariots in conjunction with a tar pit were less than adequote for this role.

Also, Chariots in any competitive TK list are a special choice, yes I do use them. Heavy cavalry are a normal troop choice, hence why I have both. The logic you are throwing at me seems like defending the ill gotten gains of the HE army book and defending GW.

Forgive the rage but I've had enough of being talked to like a complete nub by some people, in spite of probably having played warhammer a darn site lot more than they have. Like I said, as a result of this I will just be making armies based upon ranged combat because I can't be bothered with rules like this that aren't fun, so I will set out to make sure that all HE people I play against have a thoroughly un-enjoyable game as pennance for their choice  queen khalida and 120 bowmen here I come.

Edited: Individual points and insults are not acceptable - squeek


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You're welcome. You're saying you know how to play, yet you have several things you failed to consider;

a) You're saying that ASF is overpowered. Yet guess what, you still won. Overpowered then my arse.
b) You said you knew how to play and counter high elves. Congratulations, you just proved yourself wrong because you charged the swordmasters in the front, when you already had them BEAT with a charge to the rear and flank, and opened yourself up to another 9 attacks for nothing in return. I'll say it again, learn to play.

I've been playing Warhammer for 6 years. Doesn't mean that your 14 years of experience are any more valid than mine. Personally, in my opinion, they're not, as you've shown that you can't understand that charging more units into a combat that will do no benefit (other than in the High Elves Favour, bringing their banner and champion into the fray) is not a good idea. Leave Elitist 'I'm older than you so I'm better comments at the door'. They have no place here.

You're right. I forgive you for trying something that always worked in the past. What I won't apologize for is the reasoning that you give me for it though. Each army is chalk and cheese. You try the same things with most armies, and you'll lose, if it involves skill of tactics. What you need to learn is that while movement may well be the most important phase of the game, the most important aspect of the gaming hobby (besides the fun part) is that you need to adapt your tactics. If headbutting a brick wall doesn't knock it down, do you carry on headbutting it? No. You get a Sledge hammer. Learn new tactics, or get left behind.

Unfortunately, these 'Uber' abilities are part of an individualisation process that GW have come up with. While the Armies themselves as a whole may lack the background and modification that was available in 5th and 6th edition, you still have the ability to create those armies, or the armies that are competitive. It's your hobby, make a choice. They don't 'pwn' everything. Does a Spear Block beat Heavy Cavalry? Yes. Does a Heavy Cavalry unit beat Ranged Block? Yes. Does Ranged Block beat Spear Block? Yes. Rock, Paper, Scissors. Basics. Back to Basics, or Learning to Play. Each thing has a counter.

Against High Elves, it's Range, and Impact Hits (and the obvious ASF other units and characters, but they are few and far between).

ASF hasn't broken certain tactical aspects. Its opened up a new window of opportunity for both High Elf Players, and another thing to learn how to play against for their opponents.

If you want to field 300 points of a unit, just to counter the Sword Masters, look at your options. Screaming Skull Catapults. Bone Giants. Tomb Scorpions. Chariots. Archers. Light Cavalry. Lets see what counters you have available to you - For Range, you have Light Cavalry, Archers, Catapults, and to some extent, Chariots. A typical High Elf weakness, you agree? For High Toughness, you have the Giant and Scorpion. A Typical weakness of the High Elves, and they have a good few wounds to boot. Chariots. They have impact hits. Not much, mind, but they have them. Again, another High Elven Weakness.

Also, you're forgetting how to align your Chariot units. A flank charge enables 3 Chariots to get in line - as the Chariot is 50x100, you have a frontage of 100. That's 5 Swordmasters, allowing you to shuffle 3 into base contact. You caused D3 Impact its, which is on average 4.5 Hits, 3 wounds, and no saves. So that's 3 out of 2 gone before they strike. They retaliate with 4 attacks, which will be lucky to kill one. Follow up with a further flank or rear charge to cause another fear test, and a panic test, and you're balling.

Have a look at your SCR - Flank, Banner, and 3 wounds. +5. They have No Banner, No Ranks, and only outnumber for SCR. They might cause a couple of wounds, but you still win the combat, as your Charioteers/Tomb Prince are still to attack - so you're maybe looking around +3 to +7 SCR, meaning you beat them by 4, whoopdee do, Slap Bang Wallop, goodbye Swordmasters. If they pass, then there is nothing you could have done about that in the first place, and so there are no hard feelings.

Defending 'Ill Gotten' Gains? How many other armies would love to Regenerate their dead? How many others would like to Autocast their magic? Your argument is that the Magic is weak, easily dispelled? That's where the balance comes in. High Elves cost a bucket, that's the balancing side. Remember to put things in perpective before RAAAGGEEEEE and then don't insult people just because they say something your don't like to hear.

FYI, Those who say High Elves would get smashed before ASF have been playing against them for longer, griped about it, gone on with it, and still beaten them with new tactics. Take away ASF, and suddenly, you have a State Trooper in front of you costing twice as much. Fragile much?

Age, or Length of time playing warhammer means absolutely nothing on Heresy. If you have something worthwhile to add to a discussion, by all means, put it in. But if you refute facts, and insult people for telling you that you're wrong about how you went about something, that's not a part of Heresy. The fun from Warhammer comes from over coming an adversity. Admittedly, Tomb Kings are a weaker army, even among the 6th edition books, but that doesn't mean to say they're useless.


----------



## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I find ASF little more than an annoyance with most of my armies, You know when you face the Helfs that its there and can prepare in advance (Unlike a character that jumps from a unit and slaps a unit you've unwittingly sent his way) 
The only army that I've seen consistently struggly against any half decent High elf general is Ogres but then with their Ws and high points and bugger all armour its always going to be a struggle. Yes they have fear but elves have high LD, Bull charge impact hits go before ASF but its really easy to negate (I think I've only managed bull charges on units already tied down by combat in the last year or so)
Every other army I've seen has ways of ignoring ASF normally with shooting or tough armour its just a case of adapting and annoying as that may seem to the more veteran players having to change things around now and again is part of the game.


----------



## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

HE use ASF to control the movement phase the same way dwarfs control the movement phase. example:
vs HE army-oh damm it, swordmasters over there, well lets move over here... aggh dragon!
vs dwarf army-oh damm it, war machines over there, well lets move over here... aggh dwarf lord!
does that make dwarf warmachines game breaking?:so_happy:


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

I would advise that anyone who is posting whilst in a temper refrain from doing so, I do not intend to sit by whilst insults are slung around. Also, Individual points costs of items, models and upgrades are not to be posted. Everyone has access to the rulebook and most have access to the relevant armybooks so there is no need.


----------



## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

@ NagashKhemmler,

If you like, we can make this discussion emphasize ways of dealing with ASF (or High Elves in particular, which is my forte). After all, we all understand the pro's and con's of ASF at this point! 

That way, we can really make this a purely constructive debate topic. Not that it isn't already but we can at least focus our efforts then, if you would prefer.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

> Forgive the rage but I've had enough of being talked to like a complete nub by some people, in spite of probably having played warhammer a darn site lot more than they have. Like I said, as a result of this I will just be making armies based upon ranged combat because I can't be bothered with rules like this that aren't fun, so I will set out to make sure that all HE people I play against have a thoroughly un-enjoyable game as pennance for their choice  queen khalida and 120 bowmen here I come.


squeek can you please just lock the thread?


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Ok I'll make sure to be polite.

Ok now firstly:
I do understand that there are many ways to counter ASF.
Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns, Plague Censor Bearers (fumes before combat), Archers, Screaming Skulls, although I wouldn't consider Chariots a counter. (FYI 4.5 hits 2.97 wounds with -1 to armour save).

Naturally certain armies couldn't care less about ASF (dwarves for example, they rarely get to charge first, have good toughness and good armour) along with any heavily armoured/elite force. This universal rule slaughters half the teams but is near worthless against certain armies who couldn't care less for various reasons, it does however make cavalry of any form quite worthless.

For me when I started playing warhammer, many many years ago what brought me to the game, was the glorious battles, the flank chargers, for me the massed melee aspect was quite thrilling and in tournaments of days well gone by, the game was highly focused on melee. I feel that ASF has forced certain armies to resort to shooty styled armies to counter the power of the ability, that troubles me, as much as some editions of wh40k which primarily focused upon melee combat troubled me. It went against the grain of what the game was.

The game of warhammer is primarily about melee combat, at least to me. I feel that in many ways ASF challenges and changes that and moves the game in a direction that I myself and others I know will be unhappy with, there are other examples that also support a potential move of warhammer towards a more heavily shooting based game and away from melee combat and indeed from the early warhammer days, magic has recieved trickling improvements to make it the highly formidable force it currently is, as opposed to previously.

I will agree that in hindsight my move of charging the swordsmen with so many units would be considered stupid, but I'll call that 'liability of age' because there hadn't before been a situation where that was a bad idea.

The fact that I am forced to play my skaven units as gun platforms annoys me, the fact I can't use my 'heavy' cavalry annoys me, but I think that any one else in that situation would find it annoying finding that their army has been placed in a cookie cutter position where its options are severely limited/curtailed.

Ultimately that's what it comes down to, there are many competitive builds for all armies, that's true, but for skaven for example, there is only one generic strategy which will counter ASF, that strategy is also highly powerful against most organisations so as the skaven player you're forced into that build, as Tomb Kings a similar situation arises so you are again forced to adjust your entire list into a new caste of tactics for the eventuality of the HE's you may fight. Yes you can easily be competitive with the others whilst doing that and with the amount of HE players in tournaments around here, it's a very worthwhile choice to do so; sadly these tactics that people are resorting to in order to beat the ASF rule are resulting in games that aren't fun for the HE or the other player and it becomes a competition of who gets to have fun, whilst the other gets annoyed.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes, but, as I said earlier, isn't that at least in part due to the age of those books? Tomb Kings is very outdated, and Skaven, unless I'm very much mistaken, is either next or next but one on the new Army Book list. While I understand your frustration, it's unfair to base your analysis solely on Books from a previous edition against High Elves. 

It'd be like saying how rubbish Dark Eldar...oh wait. :laugh: Hopefully you get the point though - it's much fairer to compare the power of ASF in the HE list vs Daemons, WoC, DE, Dwarves etc. In these cases, it's 'brokenness' is greatly reduced...it's just a matter of time, I'm afraid, IMO, you just have to suck it up until then, sorry!


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I miss the days when army books were all updated at once .

Well there are army wide rules that don't bother me, the dark elves have nothing i would argue against really, same with dwarves.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

> I will agree that in hindsight my move of charging the swordsmen with so many units would be considered stupid, but I'll call that 'liability of age' because there hadn't before been a situation where that was a bad idea.


Now we're getting somewhere. The theory of it is pretty clear though - if your stength is static combat res and your opponents' strength is the potential to inflict wounds, of course you shouldn't maximise his strength!

Last weekend I lost a game against an ogre player, as tomb kings. He'd taken a unit of 11 bulls and put 4 characters in them, so he had a 5x3 sized unit. By my turn 4, I had wiped the table clean of every other unit he had, leaving just the big deathstar. I had also just charged that unit in the flank with a naked unit of 3 chariots, AND in the rear with another 3 chariots, which had the icon of the sacred eye (+1 to hit for everything in the unit) plus a tooled up prince.

I shattered him and he lost the combat by about 10, requiring him to roll double ones in order to hold (with a re-roll for his BSB). Then he pointed out that in a previous turn he'd cast toothcracker to make them stubborn, which i'd forgotten to dispel. I appealed to the fact that I could have just dispelled that in the previous phase as TK generate 2 power dice as normal that can't be used for anything but dispelling remains in play. In the interest of fairness, we did a random 50/50 to decide whether I should be allowed to do this or not, and it went in his favour.

So of course the ogres held with a stubborn re-roll on LD9, and in the next turn the tyrant came to the fighting rank, and I lost the combat over a couple of rounds. He had all his points invested in that unit so he took a narrow win, when clearly I had outplayed him except for a tiny but significant error.

Why didn't I just charge straight to my nearest warhammer forum and complain that it ought to be written into the next edition of rules that players MUST use markers to show remains in play spells in effect? Because it was just a silly mistake on my part, something I could have avoided. No need to take an ego hit.

20 swordmasters is a bad call. The ideal unit size is 6. This is because they don't create static combat res effectively with ranks - they cost too much and can't attack back there. With 6, you can get in contact with all your frontage, and you are small enough to hide behind hills or other, tougher units.

If you're faced with an opponent foolish enough to take them in a block of 20, charging into the flank is a better way to do it. Like I mentioned before, only 4 enemy models will be in contact, so if he takes 5 wounds from you, you'll have +1 for a flank and +3 for a ranks that he doesn't. You'll still lose slightly, that's why I would recommend an assassin in this situation.

My high elves will have no swordmasters or spearmen - the two units which really benefit from ASF the most in an high elf army. If I could swap army-wide ASF for army-wide hatred, I would do it in a flash. 

ASF isn't a balance issue. Sometimes it is better to stop worrying about unit stats and special abilities more than solid generalship and concerns relating to position and combat execution.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Never the less, I find the armywide ASF frustrating in that it negates all of my TK cavalry . There are many armywide rules that would've fit the HE feel and played to their specialisations and strengths that didn't compromise the tactical integrity of the game in such a way.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

As a fellow TK player, I empathize with the weakness of TK cavalry. I have a block of 15 heavy cav which look GREAT but they aren't really great on the field. Thing is, they are a pretty weak choice against other non ASF targets too. Unless... you make them light cav, in which case they can be kinda useful if used very well. 

Why don't you post a skaven as well as a TK army list so we can see what you're using.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Skaven used to be excellent against ranked units that relied on their kills to boost their already high SCR to thrash your own - mainly due to Lapping round - which is why Swordmasters and Chaos Warriors (or equivalent) were so outclassed in melee on occasion.

Now that both have recieved a huge boost to their stats (ASF and an extra attack for the SM's, or an extra attack, extra armour save, greater WS and I for the Warriors), the Skaven suddenly are now extremely outclassed, but can't lap round.


----------



## Falsegods (Jun 9, 2008)

As a High Elf player I am some what conflicted about the ASF. I think that it is a quick slap fix that GW give to the Army to repair their general suckyness that they experienced during sixth edition. Especially in the light of some of the more characterful (fluffy) and thoughtful Army Books the High Elf significantly. But by the same coin the new Army Book *is* competitive so unless I want to endure sixth edition again I have to take what I get.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Falsegods said:


> As a High Elf player I am some what conflicted about the ASF. I think that it is a quick slap fix that GW give to the Army to repair their general suckyness that they experienced during sixth edition. Especially in the light of some of the more characterful (fluffy) and thoughtful Army Books the High Elf significantly. But by the same coin the new Army Book *is* competitive so unless I want to endure sixth edition again I have to take what I get.


I agree with you on the fact that from 6th ed high elves needed a boost, but GW broke them, even if the rule is 'fair' it isn't fun to play against and for lightly armoured armies who also rely upon hitting first (from charging) it just isn't fair. Skaven for one, are built around hitting first and against HE they have troubles. So you're left with one tactic as skaven which just so happens to be ratling spam, incredibly hated....

As tomb kings I have found my heavy cavalry to be useful, especially to quickly tie up a flank and whilst it's expensive for its cost....it's still superior to normal skeletons 4+ save and +1 str on the charge. Yes they're crap compared to other armies but for TK they are actually fairly decent, I have had great success using heavy cav against all other armies.

Naturally the swordmasters are the truly broken unit of the HE, if it was 1 attack they would be fairly balanced with ASF but 2 attacks and ASF makes them impossible for any unit in my army to defeat, it's quite laugable really and they don't even cost much more than my 'elite' unit, the tomb guard. Even when you read advice threads on HE, you see the word swordmaster often 4-5 times in a single post, I think the community is well aware of how broken they are. The shitty thing is that they won't be fixed for quite some time now.

For the record, many armies don't care about ASF, lizardmen and dwarves are two great examples of units that never really did care about ASF, they're made to strike last.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

NagashKhemmler said:


> For the record, many armies don't care about ASF, lizardmen and dwarves are two great examples of units that never really did care about ASF, they're made to strike last.


Yeah, thats my reason for thinking ASF broken- not because its all powerful but because certain armies look at it and laugh, while others are banging their heads into the wall.

The idea of uber units just annoys me. Sure I can make a 1250+Pt Ogre unit with characters that has +7SCR, is all but immune to all direct magic, wont lose challenges and causes terror and it should beat everything the enemy put on the field (unless they have some serious cannon power) but the thought of doing so wearies me.... might as well keep some tactics in the game.




Vaul said:


> Why didn't I just charge straight to my nearest warhammer forum and complain that it ought to be written into the next edition of rules that players MUST use markers to show remains in play spells in effect? Because it was just a silly mistake on my part, something I could have avoided. No need to take an ego hit.



Actually, playing by the proper rules you indeed MUST place markers by the unit to show a remains in play gutmagic spell is affecting a unit.:
P60 OK army book: "Once a Gut magic spell with a lasting effect has been successfully cast, place the appropriate token (photocopied from the reference page) or other marker next to the unit on which it has been played"

personally I place dice behind showing the number of the spell cast (and normally point out spells I have remaining in enemy magic phase)but thats just lazyness- I will get the tokens done eventually.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What's that? +7 SCR, immune to magic, and costs 1250pts? Safe, what about the rest of your army.

Deathstar units really need to be costing in excess of 75% really, to be effective - I'm talking Archaon leading 22 Knights of Nurgle with the Banner of Rage. That's a Terror Causing Immune to Psychology unit with 28 Str 5 and 8 Str 4 Attacks with a 1+ Armour Save, +5 SCR, with a Character that is arguably the single best combat character in the game (regardless of Points etc), that hits on 3's against all but most Lord Level Characters, and is hit by WS 3 Basic Troops on 5's.

That's a death star, and in a 2250 list, that leaves you about 300 points to get marauders with - so that's you minimum core units filled out - and your opponent has to make the choice between shooting at 45 Flail armed marauders, or a nigh unkillable unit.

That's a deathstar unit - Vampire Counts have a similar unit with a Black Knight and 2+ Vampire Combo tailed by a Flying Vampire.

When people say against deathstar units, there's no generalship, they're completely and utterly wrong. Make one wrong charge, and you'll be bogged down in a combat that the enemy can't win, and overrun/wipeout, and you're pretty much fucked.

It's like everything, if you find an army/special rule you can't defeat try again. Take notes, find what works, what doesn't and filter it down. It may turn into a 'cookie cutter' list, but then again that's how you learn to play. If you can't defeat ASF, your army is wrong. No doubt about it. There are no true hard counters in fantasy, like 40K, but you still need to learn what goes where.

As in, don't throw a unit at the front to bring a standard and a champion into play if you know you can't kill it before they do the dirty, especially when you have the flanking and rear. You may have got that message, but it's just an example.

Don't complain "the old tactics don't work bawwwwwww", just take the hit, and roll with it. In return, come up with something new. Slaves and Warp Lightning Cannons? Ogres for their weak troops, ranged for their elites.

Why is their none of this for Dwarven gunlines? Hell, they're nastier than armywide ASF, but because Skaven are fast, it's not such as issue for them. What's my counter? Fast Cavalry that are dob off expensive and not that good against T4+/4+ AS ranked units, especially when they have Great Weapons, or Super Heavy Cavalry that are too expensive to take more than 10 of in an army, and become fish in a barrel for a competent opponent.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

That's exactly it Steve and as I'm sure you'd be aware, ogres suffer horribly from ASF, as an army who relies upon hitting hard and first in a massive charge that breaks the enemy....I had the chance to watch a few ogre HE games and the ogres were completely wiped well before turn 6. I think in one of them he was done for by end of turn 4....heh.

ASF in essence negates any units potential who have a high speed, cavalry of most teams become relegated to uselessness.

Let's do another...bretonnian charge against swordsmasters..

iirc swordsmasters have a higher WS so we have 3+ followed by 2+..it's around 6 kills against knights before they even strike on a charge. I hate uber units, no unit should be invincible in close combat against all comers, there were so many options to make HE viable, I can't work out why they took this path, it frustrates me.

Chuck in some chaos knights against white lions/swordsmasters and you have a similarly discouraging outcome. Funnily enough there is no point in any sort of heavy cavalry against high elves as a result of this rule. The stupid thing about this situation, is how drastically cheaper the white lions/swordmasters are in comparison to the things they can kill.

My Ushabti are 65/model, the swordmasters/white lions are 15 a model. If I support on a flank with skellies on the front (for scr) I will often lose this combat....

Does anyone else think it, or is it horribly unbalanced to have a two handed weapon striking first all the time EVEN when charged?!

The power gaming available to a high elf combat lord is so awesome I don't know why I haven't seen it yet, most characters pay around 50pts for ASF.

Funny thing about that 1250 point ogre unit is it's actually killable even in melee, 3-4 simultaneous charges flank, rear and front will wipe it off. I would like to see myself pull that off against swordsmasters. If I charge them from 3 sides I'll lose worse lol. Tough/power units in warhammer always had a big weakness, it left them vulnerable to being surrounded and in the turn they were charged, this vulnerability would leave them smashed often. ASF negates the surrounded part. In general it negates much of the game lol.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Gunlines require an opponant to deploy across the entire battlefield and are easily defeated when an opponant concentrates their deployment in a small area.

Dwarven gunlines are not complained about, because anyone can do it and anyone can counter it. T4 high armour save units aren't exactly rare and neither are armies with masses of shooting, in fact most armies are capable of such a tactic.

You could use your own archers and spam them against his gun spam, you outrange the dwarves by 6" also and IIRC have 1 higher bs but one lower to wound, so roughly even battle there, you have plenty of options to counter the dwarven gunline, even a dragon will be able to get there relatively unmolested if used correctly and rape his entire army in the face. Tell me of my options for countering a high elf ASF force.....not many . I could spam bowmen, but they won't kill enough before the distance is closed. My stupid tomb guard cost almost the same as swordsmasters too, yay. Of course you love ASF, it gives you the chance to rape everyone elses face.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its just a little silly the way ASF is nearly either auto-win or auto-lose for HE in some situations.

HE play O&G.. all O&G tricks are for getting extra movement to steal charges which ASF laughs at

HE play gun line... ASF doesnt get near to changing anything. Shooting kills overly expensive T3 models and laughs at HE


I like it when you build a decent army list and it will do well vs all enemies (although you might need to change tactics a little), but ASF cancels that out.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I like how I read constantly about HE players whining about their low toughness and low armour. Yet my TK army has the same toughness, less armour usually and often a similar cost. There are many other armies with crap armour and low toughness. Empire are T3 and lower armour in general too, so hey....maybe they need ASF to represent their loyalty to the emperor, cause loyal people are faster 

As an addendum, high elves would strike first most of the time anyways, due to their high initiative and above normal movement rate. After taking the charge, they strike first anyways and will mince many forces up, so I don't see the problem and why ASF solved this.


----------



## Vaul (Dec 29, 2008)

> whining


I know someone else who does this too. A lot. Comparing high elf toughness and armour to TK toughness and armour takes the discussion way out of context, and you really should know it.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Loyal People are faster? You on fucking crack? I'm loyal to most things, but if I was in a scrap, I'd fight at the same speed as always.

Well wayhay, guess where your theory falls down - 

T4 High AS, not exactly rare. But also, tell me, do all these units have +1 to hit, and Str 4 AP 24" shots?

Anyone can do gunlines you say? TOO FUCKING RIGHT GO CHAOS MORTAL GUNLINES!! WOOHOO. That's half a dozen units of Marauder Cavalry with Javelins or Throwing Axes, and 2 Hellcannons whoohooo!

Oh, and aren't you forgetting something about Tomb Guard? They have Killing Blow. Or is that not right? I admit, killing blow is shite. But then again, Tomb Guard are shite in any case. Tomb Kings are a shooting army. Look at their combat troops. State Troopers, with a 5+ Armour Save. The only efficient combat units are Ushabti, Tomb Scorpions and Chariots. But then look at the cheapness of their Archers, Two Shooting attacks per turn, and Twin SCC's, that's a fuck load of shots. High Elves? Infantry have T3 and a 5+ AS? I think that's right? Should be easy prey, right? But NO. They have ASF! It's so broken I still decide to Attack them! As in full on charges. Yeah, no. Not use my advantage of range to bypass ASF, but just actually attack. No sympathy mate, those a pathetic excuses as to why it might be broken.

Gunlines, funnily enough, don't require a wide spread. Requires a concentration, with a shielding unit, and a a bloody big hammer unit, with ideally +3 SCR, fast movement, and high armour/toughness to break through.

Sheild the rest behind it - or, do as you do, and leave your entire army open to an attack, and then when the counter charges hit home, you're left high and dry with your flank exposed, and noone to counter his flank. Oh whoops, didn't think of that?

Dwarven gunline ARE complained about. Thorek Gunline? No, never? It's harder to break than a fucking concrete walnut. 

Also, let's do the math - IIRC, Sword Master have WS5 - correct. That's hitting on 3's. Wound on 2's. So with the... let's see, Cavalry are Base 25, Swordmaster 20. So for the 3 knights in the lance, that's 75, and leaves 4 Swordmasters. That's... Um 8, maybe 9 if you wing the Champion. Wound on 2's? Fair dos. 6/6 wounds. You forgot the 4+ Armour Save, that's 3 wounds at most, leaving you with a Knight Champion, and in a 9 strong knightly unit, that's another 4 Knights who hit home, so 5 Attacks, hit on 4's, wound on 2's, ignore armour. You cause 3 wounds, equal combat. If they're as they should be in a small line supporting, rather than as an anchor (already gone through the argument of line over ranks - paying 135points for extra ranks is not a nice idea, when you can have another 9 swordmasters doing something), then you win - 3 wounds, versus 3 wounds, cancel out, against outnumber - 12 US on the knights compared to 9 US of the Swordmasters, then there's banners - not sure why a flanking unit to support a spear/white lion anchor would have a banner, as you only recieve said benefit once, but that's perhaps +2 for the knights already, then 2 ranks, against 1, so +3 for the knights. However you swing it, those Swordmasters are taking a Ld5 Break Test.

And let's look at the Chaos Knights - Mark of Nurgle, and Banner of Rage, costs 275points. You charge a swordmaster unit - that's 12/13 attacks hitting on 4's, so there's 6/7 hits. Wounds on 3's, so that's 4 wounds, save on 3's... Wow 1 UNSAVED WOUND FUCKING OVERPOWERED JESUS CHRIST GET THAT SHIT OUTTA HERE. Okay, return attacks - 12 Attacks, hit on 3's, so there are 8 hits, wound on 2's, 6/7 wounds, no armour saves. 8 Attacks, hit on 4's, so 4 hits, wound on 3's, 3 wounds, save on 6's, max of 1 armour save, so give them benefit of the doubt - so 2 unsaved wounds. So overall we are +8/9, against +1 from wounds.

So to give benefit of the doubt to swordmasters - 7 additional wounds were caused. Now, we have SCR - no ranks, 1 standard, and 8 members. For equal points costs, you'd have 18 Swordmasters, but we gave them Full Command, as you're rather keen on the whole "SWORDMASTARS IS ANCHOR UNIT YO" argument, so -30 I think for Full Command, so that leaves 16 Swordmasters. If 8 are killed, that's leaves... 8? So no outnumber by anyone. Banner? Both cancel. Ranks? Swordmasters had +2, so we're looking a +5 in favour of Chaos Knights - so -5 Ld to Swordmasters leaves them the chance to pass the leadership test only 1 out of 6 attempts, without modifiers, but even with a General and BSB nearby, that's Leadership 5, and a reroll, resulting in passing it effectively 40 ish%. 

So... Bretonnian Knights... Heavy Cavalry check. Chaos Knights? Heavy Cavalry check. Aww shucks, there goes that argument.

Ushabti? Aren't they for mauling Heavy Armour? Haha got to be kidding me. Don't even give me an argument where you say that a Str 6 T4 unit should go against Str 5 T3 5+ AS unit, yeah? Bright idea.

3-4 Simultaenous Flank and Rear charges against Swordmasters? Haha, I've already proved you only need a heavy cavalry charge to the front. If you want heavy Cavalry to the rear and flank, even better. Feed them shite troops, you know you're gonna get fucked.

LEARN TO PLAY.


----------



## Azure Rathalos (Mar 2, 2009)

Sword Masters are Ws6.

I am a High Elf player, IMO no army is broken, some units are a bit wrong (like Sword masters, lol) but what ever you opponant puts on the table, it can be countered.

TK are crap, but you can replenish your ranks, if my elves die, they stay dead!

If you want a perfect army for killing HE get a skink based lizardman army or WE. Although I've lost to an empire army, because they just fell back when I charged, then shoot me with another unit.

As for ASF, if the high elves don't kill the entire front rank of an enemy unit, they will take alot of damage in return, however if you want to bypass ASF take units that inflict impact hits (TK chariots spring to mind,  )


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

firstly i would just like to say that aside from the harsh words and *shudders* whining...
that i has _actually_ been helpful for countering asf or just tactics in general so just thought i would put that out there..

more on the topic though i can find ASF a little annoying..i understand that in reality they are shite without and i dont want to be called a newb and spammed for disagreeing but for example..my chaos marauders are frenzied so they charge with flails/great weapons, normally YES your dead sucker..but no. they have ASF so now my weapon(s) that kind of depends on going first (esecially on marauders) is useless. not saying its unfair though. so even though i know that they need it. it still pisses me off when it just owns my face, and as WoC i really have no option but to suck it up and fight them.


----------



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Loyal People are faster? You on fucking crack? I'm loyal to most things, but if I was in a scrap, I'd fight at the same speed as always.
> 
> Well wayhay, guess where your theory falls down -
> 
> ...


ASF is broken and majority agree. It's a blanket rule that negates the majority of the game.

Your calculations fail, like you do. I play with high elves and the reality is, it's crap and not worth playing, watching even good players move forwards without a care in the world for being charged, ASF was a very rare often exclusively one item per army ability, HE got it for their whole army and you don't think that is broken?

I hardly think that TK are a shooting army with Bs2 5+ to hit, unless you take Khalida, but special characters opens up a whole new kettle of fish.....

You and most high elf players whine about how vulnerable your precious elves are without even considering how weak some armies units are, my spearmen cost not much less than your swordsmasters, have similar stats yadda yadda. As for the ressurection of my undead, 1d6 skeletons ressurected will hardly get me anywhere, especially considering how easy TK magic is to counter for most teams, esp HE....

As for TK chariots, D3 S4 hits are crap, esp for the 'bargain' price of 45 points a model, they rarely survive to get into combat before being shot down by bolt throwers in quick fashion.

I also said MANY armies can make gunlines, not all, you fail, once again, nice way to misread what I wrote.

Did I mention a mark of nurgle and all of those other wonderful upgrades you've piled on to units? No I was comparing two stock units to one another at base value, we can get into items but then it becomes an endless cycle of theory crafting, you clearly spend too much time here and too little time actually playing, I would love to beat your face in, but seeing as its the internet I'll have to settle for ignoring your retarded ass.

ASF was a quick fix to an army which needed help, rather than a more comprehensive solution which actually made sense, not to mention just how much the ASF contradicts warhammer tactics.

Any if any other infantry unit in the entire game was charged by chaos knights they would die without doing a thing, not a draw/close to draw. Then there's the fact that the entire high elf army completely negates medium cavalry, but I suppose its perfectly acceptable for an entire segments of units to be made completely useless against one army. I spose it's fine for one army to completely negate all infantry in an army aside from heavy infantry. Only heavy infantry (thinking lizards/dwarves here) are capable of holding up against swordsmasters, or cavalry, but cavalry are generally speaking double the price of swordsmasters, and no, tomb guard can more than hold their own against all other armies in certain roles.

In your scenario of 3 swordsmasters dead and 3 brettonian knights dead, that leaves a situation of 72 points lost for the brettonians and 45 lost for the swordsmasters. As for the 'blocks of SM are stupid' line, I've seen SM used successfully in that way more than once and indeed with the HE special rules for more special units they are often quite common in larger units. TK archers are indeed not the answer to anything and TK are definately not a 'shooting' team. You assume that the double shots is a norm for TK, with a high liche priest against HE you will probably get 1-2 extra rounds of shooting, which means no extra archer shots and one extra shot per SSC, but in reality it usually ends up 1 extra SSC shot. I hardly consider 3 rounds of shooting (HE movement 10) with a 33% chance to hit and 50% chance to wound and then again a 33% chance to save (of 100 archers that's 33 hits, 15 wounds and 10 actual wounds in a turn and I'm yet to see 100 archers in a game...) 50 being the common number in TK shooting armies giving you 5 wounds in a turn, total of 15 before the enemy has closed with you, if you have spammed swordsmasters (a smart decision versus most armies) you will then enjoy a jolly good romping of their entire army. TK quite simple, given equal skill versus elves cannot compete, the elves can make a superior combat force, combined with massive amounts of magic denying all TK magic and in addition blasting away with their own. If we go into the periphery, we quickly see how ridiculous it is and we also begin to see that your HE die, because you suck as a player and recieve constant pwnings with them in spite of their ASF ruling. It also becomes blatantly apparent that you've never played TK before.

Against any other armies comparable unit stat wise to Swordsmasters, Ushabti will rip them apart, they cost 65 points per model, yet against virtually the entire elven army one would face are completely useless. 

Like I've said before, there are two tactical aspects to warhammer combat, the charge (getting it first) and direction of attack, elves have ASF, so half of the combat tactics are gone, makes it a great beginner/kiddie army at least, finally elves are reasonably fast, so the direction aspect is somewhat minimized. GW has essentially replicated the space marines into warhammer and begun making warhammer the new brainless game to play. I should do a few videos of battle reports against HE with my army against veteran players to proove just how mindless their movement phase is, it's a simple "move maximum 10"" every turn movement phase without any thought of the consequences of being charged, long as you have enough units to cover the flanks with HE you're good to move recklessly to your hearts content.

For the record TK rely heavily on getting the charge, although it's magic + movement. Their charge range with magic is generally speaking 12, 15 for units like ushabti, 24 for cavalry, so they have a very large threatening radius...their weakness and low armour make this a necessity. Combine this with the premium you pay for unbreakable (who cares they die like flies) and fear (of which most armies around atm seem to be highly resilient to, cause it themselves also or are immune). 

Edited: Insults removed - squeek


----------



## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Are you two quite finished?


----------



## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

NK, is there something you aim to propose, or are you only in the mindset to state your opinion? Though a bit rough, Vaz did pose an argument toward your view; your only retort was to insult him... Not cool, man.

What you need to do is further your beliefs through strong, civil argument. That way, we can potentially resolve the situation or at least aid anyone else in a similar predicament.




Now to carry on with attempting to make this constructive, you state that ASF is broken, such as in the High Elves. Especially in the case of Sword Masters.

You say that because any and all charge bonuses are effectively negated.

While I do agree that getting the charge is all-important, it's not necessarily always the game-winning action. There are ways to topple a powerhouse unit. 

Let's ignore ASF for a moment here. I'd like you to visit squeek's "Versus..." articles in the Warhammer Tactics section so you can see the variety of ways in which you can attempt to bring down the same situation. 

Now, let's get a little further with an example, shall we? How do you bring down the Shade Deathstar? They're wonderfully hard to hit with anything in the shooting phase, they can ASF with Great Weapons, they are armed with repeater crossbows and are nasty when charged, and magic is often a joke against them. Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd manage that one. But I'd probably figure that there are ways to win the round overall [not necessarily a combat with them].

You say that High Elves can just move forward recklessly.

I disagree here. I don't like seeing my units get cut down from War Machines and Missile fire or Magic. 

Do recall that all Elf units, regardless of faction, are T3 and typically have a poor armor save. That means that Elf units can crumple relatively easily, especially considering that they tend to be few in number. I don't just mean from shooting, either. Remember that, when charged, the charging unit will still receive it's charge bonus(es), making most Heavy Cavalry, for instance, still rather potent [a -2 AS on Empire Knightly Orders still means their Armor Save is a 3+].

Hence, caution should be used when maneuvering Elves, so as to optimize their abilities while minimizing their losses.

You say Sword Masters are broken.

I know I took this one a little far, but run with me on this.

I agree that these guys and ASF is a nasty duo. And I know what kind of damage they can unleash given the proper circumstances. I wouldn't call them broken, though. 

The problem with Sword Masters is that they have no defensive attributes, hence why "... High Elf players always complain..." about their toughness. Now, ideally they wouldn't need any defensive traits due to their prodigious offensive capacities. Still, this presents a lot of opportunity for the wise opposing player to succeed. I know you don't like to hear it, but shooting is certainly a problem for Sword Masters. As is Magic, Impact Hits (D3 or not, they can do serious damage), or anything that makes them lose their ASF.

You say shooting, especially with Tomb Kings, is worthless.

You say hitting on a 5+ at all times is bad, but do consider the rest of the armies. Orcs and Goblins don't often have considerable shooting, for instance.

I know I took this out of context but, as before, run with me. The reason Elves don't do we against gunlines is the same reason as the rest of the races; not because it can wipe out units entirely, but because it significantly reduces the combat effectiveness of a unit. 

Let's look at Spear Elves. Normally they dish out a lot of attacks. Let's say they're in a five-wide, four-deep formation, making a twenty model unit. That's 15 attacks (assuming a vanilla unit). A single unit of ten Thunderers and a War Machine of some type can quickly reduce this unit to well below 15 models, significantly reducing it's combat effectiveness, though not destroying it. Remember Spear Elves need that large volume of attacks in order to contend; by reducing their number of attacks, their combat effectiveness is therefore reduced. Remember this is only an example, and do try to see my point.

My stance: ASF is strong, not broken. Sword Masters, therefore, are strong, not broken. It just takes a different approach than most other armies.


A rebuttal, anyone?


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

i think Ascendant is right...you hit it right on the mark. Also whats with all the rage to quote a quote i saw somwhere here on this site "its a game about war, not a war about a game"


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

NagashKhemmler said:


> Your calculations fail, like you do. I play with high elves and the reality is, it's crap and not worth playing, watching even good players move forwards without a care in the world for being charged, ASF was a very rare often exclusively one item per army ability, HE got it for their whole army and you don't think that is broken?


Whoa whoa whoa. What's with the personal attacks? Hell, mate, I know Adding up and probability could be a little advanced for you, but saying I fail, because I prooved you can't do maths... Jesus that's low. Not to mention pretty cowardly, over the internet. I play AGAINST High Elves, and yes, at first, it was a strange thing realising that I was _actually_ losing models when I charged, but when I _LEARNED TO PLAY_, I realised that it wasn't that broken. ASF used to be a Rare commodity. Now, though, it's not. Deal with it. Shit moves on, you don't. Literally, you snooze, you lose. No sympathy. High Elves have for their entire army. Now, let's look what's good about their army... Ah yes, Swordmasters. Lose ASF - you get 2 Attacks, that Strike last at WS6, with a 3+ AS and a 5+ Armour. White Lions have a 5+ AS (3+ versus Range), and a single Str6 attack, that strikes last. Phoenix Guard have 1 Str 4 attack. Absolutely amazing, considering they're all T3, and negated by a Great Weapon. Quit yo jibberjabber/whining, and move on with your life. I've noiced that in the year or so I've been on the board, and each time this argument has come up (I used to think like you did), but when I was told the exact same facts, I actually tried something new out, did what I was suggested, and didn't go "Yeah, but still, It's broken, bawwww". You're really beginning to get on my tits. Everyone's allowed an opinion, just don't whine about it.



NagashKhemmler said:


> I hardly think that TK are a shooting army with Bs2 5+ to hit, unless you take Khalida, but special characters opens up a whole new kettle of fish.....


BS2 isn't anything major, but when most armies are BS3 and hit on 5's, but you're BS2, and you're still hitting on 5's, regardless of cover, skirmish, long range etc, you're hitting on 5's, when others are hitting on 8's. Special Characters enhance an army. No issue with taking them personally. You don't like to take them, fair by you. Fuck if I'm doing it though, because it doesn't agree with your morals.



NagashKhemmler said:


> You and most high elf players whine about how vulnerable your precious elves are without even considering how weak some armies units are, my spearmen cost not much less than your swordsmasters, have similar stats yadda yadda. As for the ressurection of my undead, 1d6 skeletons ressurected will hardly get me anywhere, especially considering how easy TK magic is to counter for most teams, esp HE....


Funnily enough, I'm primarily Chaos Mortals. You want to talk Fragility? Hows about Marauders, or Fast Cavalry that's nearly as expensive as most armies Heavy Cavalry? Spearmen? What... Around 10 Points a Model, 4+ Armour Save, Undead, Can get replenished automatically, can attack twice a turn, you forget what you're on about. And TK magic isn't that easy counter - especially if you max it out, which, being a ranged army, should be priority. I'd always go for a Liche High Priest over Tomb King.



NagashKhemmler said:


> As for TK chariots, D3 S4 hits are crap, esp for the 'bargain' price of 45 points a model, they rarely survive to get into combat before being shot down by bolt throwers in quick fashion.


You think anybody elses Chariots are any better for being shot down, and at 150points a piece? Get a proper argument, especially considering that the Chariots can be restored.



NagashKhemmler said:


> I also said MANY armies can make gunlines, not all, you fail, once again, nice way to misread what I wrote.


Oh shit, did I choose to ignore something plain in my face? That reminds me of someone, funnily enough.



NagashKhemmler said:


> Did I mention a mark of nurgle and all of those other wonderful upgrades you've piled on to units? No I was comparing two stock units to one another at base value, we can get into items but then it becomes an endless cycle of theory crafting, you clearly spend too much time here and too little time actually playing, I would love to beat your face in, but seeing as its the internet I'll have to settle for ignoring your retarded ass.


Again, what's the fucking issue with 'stock unit counters stock unit with X'. Who the fuck really chooses a stock unit in a proper list. Theory Crafting? Welcome to Warhammer Fantasy, the game where you can customize your troops. But because it complicated matters, let's just settle for doing base units, because, you know everyone takes Base units to a GT.



NagashKhemmler said:


> ASF was a quick fix to an army which needed help, rather than a more comprehensive solution which actually made sense, not to mention just how much the ASF contradicts warhammer tactics.


Warhammer Tactics? What the fuck do you know about tactics? Oh I know, let's charge some shit unit into the front of a unit that has ASF. Nice idea trying to bring tactics into an argument you've already lost over your use of what could only loosely be called a tactic.



NagashKhemmler said:


> Any if any other infantry unit in the entire game was charged by chaos knights they would die without doing a thing, not a draw/close to draw. Then there's the fact that the entire high elf army completely negates medium cavalry, but I suppose its perfectly acceptable for an entire segments of units to be made completely useless against one army. I spose it's fine for one army to completely negate all infantry in an army aside from heavy infantry. Only heavy infantry (thinking lizards/dwarves here) are capable of holding up against swordsmasters, or cavalry, but cavalry are generally speaking double the price of swordsmasters, and no, tomb guard can more than hold their own against all other armies in certain roles.


What part of +5 Combat Resolution gives you ANY idea of what close to draw is? Medium Cavalry? Why the fuck would you take medium cavalry in the first place - or in the case of Tomb Kings, any cavalry? Chariots hit harder, Tomb Scorpions last longer, and Ushabti have Str6. Haha, come back with valid points. Swordmasters are Elite Infantry, only elite infantry are the intended targets for swordmasters. Tomb Guard, Certain Roles, exactly, you have to carve out your own niche for them. As in ARMOUR countering, not going up against a unit that mauls Infantry for breakfast. I can tell you catch on quick. And if 10 Swordmasters costs 150 Points, then what does that gets you for heavy cavalry? Oh yeah, 7+ Heavy Knights, with their 2+ Saves and Str5+, killing Swordmasters on 2's.



NagashKhemmler said:


> In your scenario of 3 swordsmasters dead and 3 brettonian knights dead, that leaves a situation of 72 points lost for the brettonians and 45 lost for the swordsmasters. As for the 'blocks of SM are stupid' line, I've seen SM used successfully in that way more than once and indeed with the HE special rules for more special units they are often quite common in larger units.


You're still thinking that Points killed is a grand reflection of a units prowess? Don't make me laugh. What about when the Goblin kills 1 Chaos Warrior, is that good? No, because that Chaos Warrior with it's high Cost, is no real different than a Dwarf warrior, but the Dwarf is cheaper. Oh, don't get me wrong, all units are effective in anyway. I mean, Hell, those 40 Tomb King Archers in a Ranked block are effective for that massive +3 SCR that they give  I can see what you mean. 



NagashKhemmler said:


> TK archers are indeed not the answer to anything and TK are definately not a 'shooting' team. You assume that the double shots is a norm for TK, with a high liche priest against HE you will probably get 1-2 extra rounds of shooting, which means no extra archer shots and one extra shot per SSC, but in reality it usually ends up 1 extra SSC shot. I hardly consider 3 rounds of shooting (HE movement 10) with a 33% chance to hit and 50% chance to wound and then again a 33% chance to save (of 100 archers that's 33 hits, 15 wounds and 10 actual wounds in a turn and I'm yet to see 100 archers in a game...)


I didn't say that they are the answer, I said good generalship is the answer. However, Tomb Kings archers alleviate a situation quite a lot. 4 Priests, that's at least 4 a turn, which your opponent needs to counterwith spells, the average being 4 DD, with a +1. Then you have 4 other incantations on top of that - a Magic Missile, Reincarnation, Movement there's enough of it around to make the High Elves wary of just blocking the Shooting. So let's say that you don't have any spells get off. We have 50 shots, which is 16 hits, and 8 wounds, and 3 saves at mosts. Nothing major, but guess what - it's 3 Less swordmasters. Then, when those swordmasters get closer - guess what you can do - move away, shoot and magic away. Have them playing catch up. Then you've at least 3 turns until they start making life a pain for you - so that's 15 casualties. I'd take those odds. Then from the SSC, and whatnot, there's more than enough. Hell, maybe even a panic check from those Skulls of the Foe.



NagashKhemmler said:


> 50 being the common number in TK shooting armies giving you 5 wounds in a turn, total of 15 before the enemy has closed with you, if you have spammed swordsmasters (a smart decision versus most armies) you will then enjoy a jolly good romping of their entire army. TK quite simple, given equal skill versus elves cannot compete, the elves can make a superior combat force, combined with massive amounts of magic denying all TK magic and in addition blasting away with their own. If we go into the periphery, we quickly see how ridiculous it is and we also begin to see that your HE die, because you suck as a player and recieve constant pwnings with them in spite of their ASF ruling. It also becomes blatantly apparent that you've never played TK before.


Never played TK, never said I have, at least for a long while. But, then again. My army is Warriors of Chaos, and by saying that I actually play High Elves, you have made assumptions, which, if we go into the periphery, means you are easily lead, confused, take things at face value, and overall, aren't that at marshalling your troops into a competitive form. Oh, and for my Warriors, I love an enemy spamming Swordmasters. I'd happily fight 40+ Swordmasters, whether as Blocks of 20, or lines of 10. Just means that they've put in 600points into something that I've put into at most 300points to counter them all with.



NagashKhemmler said:


> Against any other armies comparable unit stat wise to Swordsmasters, Ushabti will rip them apart, they cost 65 points per model, yet against virtually the entire elven army one would face are completely useless.


You really think that T4/3 Wounds will save you? Hell, I have Dragon Ogres and T4/4wounds/4+AS didn't save you. Again, don't compare stats. Just makes you look pathetic.



NagashKhemmler said:


> Like I've said before, there are two tactical aspects to warhammer combat, the charge (getting it first) and direction of attack, elves have ASF, so half of the combat tactics are gone, makes it a great beginner/kiddie army at least, finally elves are reasonably fast, so the direction aspect is somewhat minimized. GW has essentially replicated the space marines into warhammer and begun making warhammer the new brainless game to play. I should do a few videos of battle reports against HE with my army against veteran players to proove just how mindless their movement phase is, it's a simple "move maximum 10"" every turn movement phase without any thought of the consequences of being charged, long as you have enough units to cover the flanks with HE you're good to move recklessly to your hearts content.


You have no idea about how shit space marines really are, do you? And also, have a look at top ranking tournament armies. You'll see a Bretonnian, a Tomb King (150+ Archers, what's that? Tomb Kings aren't shooty?), A wood elves, a Warriors of Chaos, numerous Vampire Counts, and Daemons. Every single High Elf army at a tournament, I've destroyed. If you think High Elves require no tactics, then you aren't forcing them to make any decisions. Get over it, move on, force them to do something. Come up with new tactics, use new units, combinations you've not tried before.



NagashKhemmler said:


> For the record TK rely heavily on getting the charge, although it's magic + movement. Their charge range with magic is generally speaking 12, 15 for units like ushabti, 24 for cavalry, so they have a very large threatening radius...their weakness and low armour make this a necessity. Combine this with the premium you pay for unbreakable (who cares they die like flies) and fear (of which most armies around atm seem to be highly resilient to, cause it themselves also or are immune).


If you're still banging on about a T3, 4+ AS Heavy Cavalry, or a Light Cavalry that can't do any of the things you choose Light Cavalry for, then i've just wasted my time. Also, Weakness? You think that 150 Tomb King archers is a weakness? Low armour? Really, I thought it was Static Combat Resolution for your units, and number of shot for your ranged troops.

Anything more to say over insulting me, do it over PM. As you know (having yourself come here), that this is a child friendly site, and having people (with their hard and fast one army fits all mentality, and because it is shattered by people with logic, experience, and most of all, the ability to reason without insulting people) come over scaring people away, it's not good. It's also not especially wise to fuck off everyone who are both established (I would say respected but would be pushing my luck ;D) and liked members of the forum, such as myself, and numerous others. We're hear for a long time yet, and we hope you will be, but you won't make many friends with that attitude of yours. Maybe we got off on the wrong foot. In that, we'll agree to disagree. I'll maintain that while Tomb Kings are primarily shit army with no real identity (that's not your fault, more the lazy 6th edition design team), the ASF is not a Broken, you'll be adamant that it is.

I'm offering my hand, I suggest you take it. I apologize for my part in it, can only say you got on my tits with the constant whining.

I'm more than willing to continue a logical and reasoned discussion, but the insults and the shit you give, they have to stop. For now, and always.

Edited: Removed quoted insults - squeek


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

This really is starting to degrade into a flame war, and as such a moderator really should either close it or move it to the wastes.


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

This has been an interesting and hard argued thread, it is a shame that it was taken too far, but in any case it appears that all interested parties have had their say and argued their case.

Topic locked.


----------

