# Swooping Hawks?



## reasnd (Jan 14, 2009)

What are they good for? I've used them a couple of times but have to say that I haven't had much success with them. First time they scattered next to a bunch of Ork boys who took them appart with shooting? and then finished the job in the Assault. The other time I let them get assaulted by another mob of boys who wiped them out in a single turn.
How do others out there used them? do you keep the as far from the enemy as possible and only bring them out for some shooting/objective contesting in the closing stages of the game?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

The general consensus is that they are bad.
They have mediocre anti-infantry guns, and pretty good anti-vehicle grenades.
Basically, they're good for taking out a vehicle and pestering some units, but that's about it.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

They are extremely squishy, little buggers that are overcosted for what they actually do.

They can hurt the little guys, pester by "bouncing" (dropping the template then skyleaping back up), or utilize their haywire grenades to cause issue for enemy vehicles. They are among the worst units in the game for various reasons, the very worst being the artillery platforms in Heavy Support.

If you aren't running a themed list, I'd stay away from them. If you are running a themed list that includes them... Good Luck.

You will want to stay very far away when using these guys, they don't need to be within 24" of anything with T4. Just bounce the entire game. 

Try to use their 12" move and fleet to get close enough to tanks to surround and bust them denying exit to its contents. Always fun.

Against T3 things like IG or Gants just bounce until late game then shoot some, possibly contest. 

Beware blast templates when bouncing!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Styro-J said:


> They are extremely squishy, little buggers that are overcosted for what they actually do.
> 
> They can hurt the little guys, pester by "bouncing" (dropping the template then skyleaping back up), or utilize their haywire grenades to cause issue for enemy vehicles. They the 2nd worst unit in the codex in my opinion, with a very thin margin between being worst. Most people would say they are the worst and are to be avoided.
> 
> ...


Rubber Hawking is the worst thing you can do with them, you pay a minimum of something like 125 points for a Bolter explosion every turn.
Deep Strike them if you're playing against an army like Guard or Orks, but after that just let them shoot and Haywire things.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Styro-J said:


> They are extremely squishy, little buggers that are overcosted for what they actually do.
> 
> They can hurt the little guys, pester by "bouncing" (dropping the template then skyleaping back up), or utilize their haywire grenades to cause issue for enemy vehicles. They the 2nd worst unit in the codex in my opinion, with a very thin margin between being worst. Most people would say they are the worst and are to be avoided.
> 
> ...


I'd have to disagree. I think it's almost unanimious that the artillary platforms are the worst unit in the Eldar codex. And with the fact that many armies are meched up, their atrocious cost, and the competion for their slot, I've found reapers to be horribly lacking. Hell, I'd rather have a unit of hawks more then a unit of shining spears or vipers as well.

The hawks are not good by any means, but they certainly aren't the worst in the codex.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I stand corrected! I don't know how I keep forgetting that the Support Platforms are there... Oh wait, that's right... Repressed them to get over the pain.

Rubber Hawking IS a terrible tactic in and of itself. But its main use is to be annoying and try to deny a KP while still getting some hits in. It's just something to be done when you have a premade list running into something Hawks on the ground won't handle.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't see what's so bad about Support Platforms.
I meant, they obviously aren't that great, but I can see them fitting in to a few lists somehow.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

They're absolutely awful in every way. A Vibrocannon or D-Cannon battery will cost you 150 pts. D-Cannons only have a 24" range, but they're barrage style fired by guardians so they'll miss frequently, granted they will killinate things they hit pretty well. Vibrocannons will inflict D6 S6 hits but with AP- can only glance vehicles. Shadow Weavers are S6 again but also AP- Barrage Weapons so they'll miss too frequently. They fit into Heavy support where Falcons, War Walkers, Wraithlords and Fire Prisms live. 

The good batterys cost more than a Falcon or Fire Prism so why would you ever take them?

I mean yes if your opponent blunders his termies out in front of your D-Cannons without simply shooting them then 50/50 chance they'll get vaporised. But your opponent will just shoot them.

Aramoro


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Not to mention they have 2 Guardians for wounds. They will cease to function way to easily from the weakest of shots.

D-Cannon- Short Short Range. It can reasonably expect to shoot one turn.

Vibro Cannon- Gets one shot, may kill one MEQ or 3 orks per unit in a line a shot but will do one glance to an enemy tank. Not quite worth it.

Shadow Weaver- Long Range will help survive a tad bit longer, very inaccurate though. Would get more hits out of some Warp Spiders at the same cost.

All of which don't like to be moved, this is Eldar and we love to move! Even Swooping Hawks can move a fair bit.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

The sad thing is they could fix the platforms pretty easily. 12 inches more range on the D-cannon, lower the price of the vibrocannon, make the shadow weaver a large blast template and let them all take additional guardian gunners as an optionand boom, they wouldn't be great but you could argue the case for taking them at least.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

reasnd said:


> What are they good for? I've used them a couple of times but have to say that I haven't had much success with them...


First of all youre most likely better of deploying them as normal instead of counting on reserve rolls. Hawks are quick enough to be able to shoot anything they want turn 1 so why Deep Strike at all?

Use them to threaten tanks/skimmers. They are really good on wrecking AV things thanks to intercept, and have 19-24' charge range which is a damn long reach.

Combine them with Doom on their target. Give the Exarch the assault5 gun and you will make impressive numbers of wounds on most <=T4 units.
Harass "backfield units" like IG Heavy Weapon teams, Lootas or similar turn 1. Hawks have 36' threat range which aint bad at all.


Before anyone fails to get it: Im not saying they are the best choice in the book. They do have their uses though. One of the foremost is that they are FA, where few units compete about the FO slots...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I play against Swooping Hawks frequently, and frankly without wasting large sums of points and a HQ slot on them they really aren't worth it. Add Baharroth, they become reasonable for the high stats of the PL, although they're really there to give him some cover. Autarch with wings, not so good and can't really do much apart from kill 2-3 models a turn (If that!). The Grenades are the best thing about them, and they aren't even that good. IIRC Warp Spiders get Haywires as well, with a better save, better move, better powers, and better guns. Sadly no Pheonix Lord.

You could argue that they're Fast Attack, but just because the slots are there doesn;t mean you have to use them. The only lists I have made with FA was a Kult of Speed list, and an IG force (and only then because for some reason hellhounds are FA).

Midnight


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Warp Spiders don't get haywire grenades. 

Baharroth is by far the worst of the Phoenix Lords. Of all the PL's he is the one who does the least good for his supporting unit and he doesn't even have a unique weapon to make up for it.


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## reasnd (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the tips and comments, I like the look of these guys and I'll give them another go eventually. But first I have to solve their even more irritating feacture Stability on the table. In both games I've played with them moments before they were wiped out, someone bumped the table and they all toppled over! However I've just solved this problem with Jain Zar, by weighting her base down with lead. Have a look at the modeling section of this site to see a picture http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57826. My plan is to do the same for each of the Hawks.


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

Baharoth is indeed the worst of the PL's, part of his wargear is a power sword which is pointless for the same reason as the power blades on a warp spiders exarch, why would they ever be in combat by choice?

I've only used hawks once myself, they did ok but no-where near enough for warrant the points spent on them (took out 10 guardsmen before taking to many casualties to be useful anymore). As people say T3 with a 4+ save and better, cheaper units available means hawks won't be finding their way into many lists. Its a shame as the sunrifle sounds really good on paper.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I got to admit i disagree with alot of things written here! I agree that since the new edition the hawks relative value has gone down as cant do the objective deepstrike as well as before but they are still good. They are great at darting from cover to cover, their great against dedicated heavy weapon low save troops like IG HW squads and ork support guns, they slaughter low save infantry with exarch sun rifle. and are good haywiring artillery tanks. They are overpriced but most eldar units are anyway. you knock out a tank and they have virtually made their points back. Personally i prefer them over spiders 

Heavy platforms are good hidden in a corner behind cover, they are quite arcurate as all blast weapons are now and if you get lucky can be very destructive especially d cannons

As far a PLs are concerned how often do you guys field them? i find an avatar and FS are better anyway


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## reasnd (Jan 14, 2009)

As far as Pheonix lords are concerned. I've only ever played with one, Krandras. He was attached to a unit of 10 Scorpians. This lot personally took out about half of a 1000 pt. Ork army. He was so successfull in fact that I've now got Jain Zar to try out and Bahroth is on his way. I'll let you know.


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## Theripontigonus (Dec 13, 2009)

I find that swooping hawks hit rather hard. They arent very aerodynamic, and have a short range, but most of the time you can get away with just throwing one and get the desired effect. Unfortunately (being Eldar) their low toughness tends to limit them to one 'flight'.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Theripontigonus said:


> I find that swooping hawks hit rather hard. They arent very aerodynamic, and have a short range, but most of the time you can get away with just throwing one and get the desired effect. Unfortunately (being Eldar) their low toughness tends to limit them to one 'flight'.


I don't think your post makes sense.
What do you mean?


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Barnster said:


> I got to admit i disagree with alot of things written here! I agree that since the new edition the hawks relative value has gone down as cant do the objective deepstrike as well as before but they are still good. They are great at darting from cover to cover, their great against dedicated heavy weapon low save troops like IG HW squads and ork support guns, they slaughter low save infantry with exarch sun rifle. and are good haywiring artillery tanks. They are overpriced but most eldar units are anyway. you knock out a tank and they have virtually made their points back. Personally i prefer them over spiders
> 
> Heavy platforms are good hidden in a corner behind cover, they are quite arcurate as all blast weapons are now and if you get lucky can be very destructive especially d cannons
> 
> As far a PLs are concerned how often do you guys field them? i find an avatar and FS are better anyway


Compared to the other codex options like Wave Serpents and Fire Dragons, it's hard to want to spend points on either Swooping Hawks or the artillery units (hell it's hard to want to spend points on the artillery units anyway.)

Dire Avengers in a serpent do the Hawks job better, in addition to being scoring and more durable, for ~50 more points.


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

Barnster said:


> They are great at darting from cover to cover, their great against dedicated heavy weapon low save troops like IG HW squads and ork support guns, they slaughter low save infantry with exarch sun rifle. and are good haywiring artillery tanks. They are overpriced but most eldar units are anyway.


Hawks ap5 weapons do mean they can cut through IG heavy wep squads but other units can do it just as well if not better for cheaper. Pretty much everything in the codex is ap5 or better apart from scatter lasers but their high S makes up for it so essentially anything can really cut through IG's armor. 

Its also true that most units in the codex have a high points cost, but hawks tend to be a higher price than even those units such as Avengers. I do really wish that Hawks where better, i think the models are really good looking and anyone who dares to use them I wish the best of luck to.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

PanzerPig said:


> Hawks ap5 weapons do mean they can cut through IG heavy wep squads but other units can do it just as well if not better for cheaper. Pretty much everything in the codex is ap5 or better apart from scatter lasers but their high S makes up for it so essentially anything can really cut through IG's armor.
> 
> Its also true that most units in the codex have a high points cost, but hawks tend to be a higher price than even those units such as Avengers. I do really wish that Hawks where better, i think the models are really good looking and anyone who dares to use them I wish the best of luck to.


Mm, I think that if they cost 16 points (what Avengers do I think) they'd be far more valid an option.
But alas, the only real purpose they serve is looking pretty and punching vehicles.


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

While I don't have my codex on me i think that Avengers are only 12. I use them every game I should really know this by now.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

The trick with hawks is to paint them if you want to spend some time painting some fairly neat looking models. I mean, compare them to the new reapers. They're a quite decent model.



Winterous said:


> The general consensus is that they are bad.
> They have mediocre anti-infantry guns, and pretty good anti-vehicle grenades.
> Basically, they're good for taking out a vehicle and pestering some units, but that's about it.


What? I mean, glancing most of the time? Wooooo. Glancing a vehicle to death is... somewhat less than ideal. And it's not like they need that exarch power anymore.

Plus, lets consider the other option: Guardian Jetbikes. For 1 point more you lose 6" on their gun, trade a point of BS for twinlinking (ie, you can't be guided, but you hit more) upgrade to t4 power armour and can take what amounts to a 30" s6 assault 3 gun rather than a s5 assault 3 or s3 assault 6 gun. I mean, Guardian Jetbikes really, REALLY needed the switch to being scoring to be worth taking, but when compared to the options still stranded at fast attack, they're magical.


~~~


Support batteries... would be bad if Eldar were a gunline army. And we're not. Phil FOC-screwed us by loading elites and HS with the things worth taking. Not needing LOS to shoot is all fine and good, but when for 115 points you can get a gun platform that will be usefull they go from "good lord that's bad" to "lets just cover their entry up with post-it notes. We'll write reminders about stuff in the faqs on them or something" status.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> What? I mean, glancing most of the time? Wooooo. Glancing a vehicle to death is... somewhat less than ideal. And it's not like they need that exarch power anymore.


Oh wait, I seem to have thought they glanced on a 2-4/5 and penetrated on a 4/5+.
Righto, they're just shit then.



Cyklown said:


> Support batteries... would be bad if Eldar were a gunline army. And we're not. Phil FOC-screwed us by loading elites and HS with the things worth taking. Not needing LOS to shoot is all fine and good, but when for 115 points you can get a gun platform that will be usefull they go from "good lord that's bad" to "lets just cover their entry up with post-it notes. We'll write reminders about stuff in the faqs on them or something" status.


I don't actually understand what you mean by this.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Imagine Harlies were FA. Or even Banshees. It makes them a hundred times better, because they can't REALLY compete with FDs...Harlies kinda, but Banshees are very mediocre anyway. Spiders could be 16 points...Hawks would need to be 12-14. And have Haywires Pen on a 4+, not a 6. And everything needs free Exarchs. Bleh.

Loving this thread, btw. It's nice when other Eldar players gather together and say what I think. Thing is...as much as we all agree a lot of Eldar stuff sucks NOW, wait until people are using new BA Fast Predators on us. And then Necrons and Inquisition are long before we get redone. And Templars. And Dark Eldar...well - by then we'll either have bought a new army, quit, or be 'counts as' as a Dark Eldar army, and damn the fluff.

Lucky I have so much other crap - I spent £80 today because I couldn't resist the shiny new Venerable Dreadnought. Sigh.


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## reasnd (Jan 14, 2009)

Back on the topic of the Pheonix lords. I tested out Krandras today on a 12 strong unit of 'Ard boys, with power claw on a Nob. I was expecting him to do some damage but that power claw is just too nasty. I think you really need some support to take the hits. I still haven't got arround to painting Jain Zar but will do the same test with her.
@TheKingElessar - I love FDs as well but Scopians and Bnshees are great fun. My biggest problem is which one do I leave out of my list!
Also I've got a bunch of Harlies which I've not had much success with. Possibly because I only have the basic 5 plus a Troop Master. I'm thinking a shadow seer is really important with this lot.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Winterous said:


> I don't actually understand what you mean by this.


I'm saying that gun platforms don't fit Eldar's playstyle at all and that even if they did they would be terrible. Then I point out that Vibrocannons, which at least used to reliably put Monoliths out of action turn after turn are even more garbage than they used to be.



reasnd said:


> .
> @TheKingElessar - I love FDs as well but Scopians and Bnshees are great fun. My biggest problem is which one do I leave out of my list!
> Also I've got a bunch of Harlies which I've not had much success with. Possibly because I only have the basic 5 plus a Troop Master. I'm thinking a shadow seer is really important with this lot.


The trick is to leave everything that isn't Fire Dragons out unless you absolutely have to fill a tactical need of your army with an elites slot. If you find yourself in this position where you need to do this... then ouch. The fact that we're shafted for anti-MEQ HTH troops blows, but what can you do?

We may have been "intended for 5th", but that didn't really give us anything. They tried a few new things, failed at half of them (let's compare autarchs to all those other HQs, eh?) and then didn't go far enough with a few others (shining spears?). Our few points of glory have been largely emulated by other armies.

We're really only hanging in there because we're well suited to the meta. My worry is we'll get the same treatment we got last 'dex: some units get used way too much because they're the only thing that's we have any business taking (and are arguably really good, but not obsenely so) and therefore get nerfed into unviability, a la wraithlords and starcannons. The fact that we have a transport that is more than just a transport, and one that was unique in it's ability to do transport-ey things (although now other people have clones of our transport that are apparently better in every way asides from points cost.) covers for our lack of viable midrange and longrange anti-tank.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

[/QUOTE]Phil FOC-screwed us by loading elites and HS with the things worth taking.[/QUOTE]

And I thought we IG had were spoilt for choice. 5 viable Fast Attacks, 10/11 viable Heavy Support, 3 great Elites choices (Not sure on Marbo or PBS) and such a weird command structure it confuses me. What is it with Platoons and Senior/Junior Officers and Orders! They're what make the Imperial Guard loveable, but they're soooo hard to remember without you're Codex handy.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Theripontigonus said:


> I find that swooping hawks hit rather hard. They arent very aerodynamic, and have a short range, but most of the time you can get away with just throwing one and get the desired effect. Unfortunately (being Eldar) their low toughness tends to limit them to one 'flight'.


Winterous, he means throwing them across the room.

My personal "worst-ever" unit is Shining Spears, but Hawks are right up there too. They just don't have the hitting power. Yes, they might annoy someone _slightly_, but I'd rather annoy someone _a lot_ with Avengers and Dragons instead.

Also, random thought. New Vehicle upgrade in the new codex: Crystal Targeting Matrix. Grants +1 BS to the vehicle. 10 points.

Yes, I did rip off the Tau codex. No, I'm not sorry. Yes, the oldest race in the galaxy bar Necrons really ought to have learned how to shoot by now. No, it probably won't happen. Yes we will have to wait at least 2 years for another codex. No, it won't be better than the current one. Yes, we will still have Support Platforms. No, we won't get better Vypers. Yes, I will be quiet now.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Yes, I did rip off the Tau codex. No, I'm not sorry. Yes, the oldest race in the galaxy bar Necrons really ought to have learned how to shoot by now. No, it probably won't happen. Yes we will have to wait at least 2 years for another codex. No, it won't be better than the current one. Yes, we will still have Support Platforms. No, we won't get better Vypers. Yes, I will be quiet now.


You just did a whole thing, like all by yourself. Really who needs other people on an internet forum right? :biggrin: (I'm teasing)


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

If you compare the lifespan of Swooping Hawks in game to their lifespan in this thread you'll get a good idea of their viability.

Only difference being that this thread starts with Swooping Hawks which is more than I can say for any competitive Eldar army in the last few years...

..as for support platforms...

-tumbleweed-


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