# Chaos Termies better than SM Termies in CC



## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Reasons:
1. Chaos Termies can be upgraded to Champions giving them an extra attack.
2. Chaos Termies come with a free power weapon, SM termies come with powerfists meaning they will prob get killed before they can attack back.
3. Chaos Termies can be given a chaos mark, 
Khorne: large group killers
Nurgle: less likely to die to standard weapons and non power wep cc.
Tzentch: less likely to die to Anti Teq/powerweapons.
Slaneesh: Eldar killers, Enemy before they CC you back.
Glory: Good for when half squad dies.

Thats about it.

5xKhorne Champions with Lightning claws - 25 attacks.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

SM termis can get TH & SS. Nuff said.


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

BioHate is correct in saying that Chaos terminators are more deadly in CC than Terminator Squads in C:SM man for man, though they can be more expensive and generally have to be to maximize their potential. Terminator Squads can outshoot their heretical brothers because of the greater rate of fire of a storm bolter (only outside of 12", then the twin-linked bolter wins because it is twin-linked). RedCorsairLord is correct in saying they are not as durable as C:SM Terminator Assault Squads. The distinction that comes down between the terminator squads in C:SM is not as important as the idea that chaos terminators are generalists, while loyalist terminators are specialists.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Chaos terminators are far more flexible than imperial ones, and cheaper - lots of combi-weapons and a good mixture of CC weapons makes it easy to get good allround setups. That said, if it comes to CC, Chaos beats normal termies, but TH/SS termies usually massacre chaos termies, even with MoT. The only way Chaos termies have a chance is if you allow for them shooting off a volley of combi-plasma shots before CC begins, which usually evens out the odds a little.


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## TaelWB (Dec 27, 2009)

4 termies - 4 pairs of LC, mark of Khorne, one champion - 200 pts.
They are able to kill loyal termies even if loyalists charge them, but they are unable to deal with mech, to kill heroes by one strike and don`t have a pleasant special rule of thunder hammer. So chaos termies are good if you are going to kill termies but assault termies are better if you have to play against different opponents with the same roster (in tourneys, for example).


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Give me slaaneshi termies any time. I agree thunderhammers and stormshields are bloody lovely but eventually you will fail a 3+ invun and the slaaneshi boys are striking first. Thats alot of attacks especially if you make them 40 point termi champions 3 power weapon attacks plus the charge if you get it).

That amounts to alot of ouch. 

Also I like the customisability of the chaos termies and the ability to have a power weapon and a combi- plasma/ melta, which allows you to shoot down a unit after deepstrike.

However thunderhammers and stormshields are great cant argue against them


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

well - point for point (5 man squad of TH/SS termies vs 5 man squad of LC chaos termies)

a bit of probability crunching results in:

P=p^r*(1-p)^(n-r)*nCr

P(th/ss kill 5) = 11.48%
P(lc kill 5) = 3.107%

meaning that 5 on 5 you can reasonably expect the chaos termies to wipe out the loyalists 3.107% of the time before the loyalists get to strike (not looking so hot...)

In fact - this P is probably more significant:

P(th/ss kill 0) = 3.861%
P(lc kill 0) = 13.49%

Throw that mark of khorn on your chaos terminators (now making them more expensive than the 5 loyalist...) and the probabilitys are:

P(khorn lc kill 5) = 9.501%
P(khorn lc kill 0) = 6.921%

So still - the storm shield owns chaos...


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

clever handle said:


> well - point for point (5 man squad of TH/SS termies vs 5 man squad of LC chaos termies)
> 
> a bit of probability crunching results in:
> 
> ...


You can crunch the numbers all you like, but when you play against me, my tactics and stratagem will turn your numbers on its head and make you say 'uncle'


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

also are you counting the reroll with lightning claws, that makes a difference


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> You can crunch the numbers all you like, but when you play against me, my tactics and stratagem will turn your numbers on its head and make you say 'uncle'


So what you're ACTUALLY saying is:

"In a situation of my own choosing and design, one unit is better than the other and so obviously I have to make a blanket statement complaining about how poor the other unit is across the board."

Great argument there, I'm totally swayed. k:


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> You can crunch the numbers all you like, but when you play against me, my tactics and stratagem will turn your numbers on its head and make you say 'uncle'


yeah sorry BIOhate, but on the forums, the number crunching is showing averages. if you use rigged dice thats one thing.

but for the record. SPACE WOLF, Termie WG are THE BEST termies.

they are extremely flexible, and can put WC/SS builds out fairly cheap, they might lose some attacks for not having the bonus attack, but they have counter assault so even if you charge them, you will probably end up facing all the attacks the can do first turn.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Sethis said:


> So what you're ACTUALLY saying is:
> 
> "In a situation of my own choosing and design, one unit is better than the other and so obviously I have to make a blanket statement complaining about how poor the other unit is across the board."
> 
> Great argument there, I'm totally swayed. k:


I'm saying it's all about the luck of the player or the dice. 

I killed a squad of 10+ orks with 2 space marines of 1 flamer and a Sargent and one 1 frag missile from another squad. they turned tail and ran after i assaulted them with the 2 SM. It's just luck. 

Number crunching is just estimating and cannot truly give you a win.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> I'm saying it's all about the luck of the player or the dice.
> 
> I killed a squad of 10+ orks with 2 space marines of 1 flamer and a Sargent and one 1 frag missile from another squad. they turned tail and ran after i assaulted them with the 2 SM. It's just luck.
> 
> Number crunching is just estimating and cannot truly give you a win.


Huh? Sorry? So what you're saying is "Chaos Termies are better if you're lucky."?

Or what?

And for the record, while tactics and luck might make a difference, for two people of equal skill and armies, the one who has a basic understanding of probability is the one who's most likely going to win. You minimise the effect luck can have by stacking the numbers in your favour to start with.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

BiOHaTe said:


> Number crunching is just estimating and cannot truly give you a win.


People don't crunch numbers to "get them a win." You cannot win this game having no understanding of proper tactics.

However, a significant portion of those tactics relies on knowing what a unit can reasonably expect to accomplish, hence probability. Without that kind of basic information, you can't possibly expect to make a better tactical decision than someone who does have that knowledge.


That's not to say everything follows predictable patterns, but by planning on the low end of what your unit can accomplish, you can almost guarantee to get done what you want to do.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeh but he cant really guarantee that his 3% chance of killing ss/th termies will work out...


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Yeh but he cant really guarantee that his 3% chance of killing ss/th termies will work out...


He didn't count rerolls so 3% is off.


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> He didn't count rerolls so 3% is off.


its still less than 10% if you double it! 

I'll agree with you that tactics make a huge diffrence however the mates I play with rapes me becasue he can figure what units will do what by "crunching numbers" , a lot of the time he wins out. But I agree with luck and understanding tactics I can slap back.

But I gotta agree man, you arn't making solid arguments in your defence, a skilled player wwith the TH/SS combo should be able to run you.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

After hammering out the numbers somewhat, it seems that a unit with LCs and the Icon of Khorne would normally just come out on top in a fair fight, as long as the IoK bearer doesn't go down in the first round. They are slightly more vulnerable to shooting, can't take out tanks and lacking ATSKNF, so TH/SS termies still have the edge overall, but still, not a bad showing.

I'd still prefer a unit of plain termies with a few LCs/chainfists and all combi-plasma though, flexibility over outright CC ability.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

one thing to keep in mind is that the TH termies probably wont kill as many since the chaos go first and killing 2-3 of them will definetly lower there damage how ever keep in mind that termies dont have grenades thus the loyalists can use that to there advantage


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

I think it would be cool to have Cult terminators, just their cult troop with abilities in termy armour instead of just plain marks.

Iv never really thought about thunder hammers being any good cause they only slow Int after wounding so its only good for char assassination and MC killing also vehicles.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yes, because FnP Terminators with defensive grenades is perfectly balanced at anything less than 100pts per model... :laugh:


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

You forgot the T4(5), and -1I.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

The entirety of this thread seems to wish to compare the two units in a direst fight. This is a bit of a misnomer- they will generally be fighting against other units, and in cc, the loyalist Hammernators are much more versatile. You may be able to come up with specific opponents that a certain chaos terminator combination is better against, but the hammernators are always useful (and deadly).

In an all comers/tournament style setup Thunder Hammer terminators are the best. By a long, long way. This is before you consider taking vulkan to upgrade them (more as a result of upgrading your guns).


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

johnnymajic said:


> also are you counting the reroll with lightning claws, that makes a difference


Yes I did take the rerolls into account:

the probability of each success was based on this formula:

lc: (1/2)*((1/2)+(1/2)*(1/2))*(1/3)
or (50% to hit) * (50% to wound + 50% to wound assuming you missed the first time) * (33.3% to get past the stormshield)

th/ss: (1/2)*(5/6)*(2/3)
or (50% to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * ( 2/3 to pass the termy invul)


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