# Best Anti-Tank Unit? [Space Marines]



## zchdd18 (Oct 19, 2008)

Basically, my army list is complete besides the fact that I'm missing the crucial AT unit that can handle big tanks. I've come to the conclusion that there are 5 different units that can do this for an affordable points cost. My 5 choices would be: Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Predators, Devastator Squad and the Vindicators. This poll/thread will really help me decide which I should use and why. If you have any comments about which one to use, then don't be afraid to post. Also, if I missed another AT unit, then please let me know


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Not a loyalist gamer, but I got to say I have always been a fan of anti tank weapons in specialist squads. However since loyalist don't have access to 2 choices that can take 4+ special weapons. I will have to go the 3 laz pred or devastators.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

A unit of 3 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas is easily the best anti-tank unit in the entire Codex. They're fast, able to shoot on the move, cost very few points, have multiple Wounds per model, have a high Toughness and can even provide a minimum of anti-infantry duty with their twin-linked bolters. Also, since their best anti-tank weapon is a melta, Vulkan will allow them to reroll misses, which makes them even more deadly.

The only real weakness of Attack Bikes are their very average Leadership score. If the unit suffers a single casualty, there's a strong possibility that the unit will fall back. Of course, those that take Captain Sicarius or Calgar don't need to worry about this, but since those players are few and far between, Attack Bike morale is definitely something worth thinking about.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

None of the above, i say a Ironclad in a droppod.


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

take an allied dominion squad with 4 meltas in a rhino, use scout models

oh, and a vindicator is a pure anti infantry, its a waste of a shot to hit a tank with it


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Certainly attack bikes. I really with Chaos had that option.

Of course we get Melta Chosen, so I suppose it all evens out.


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## zchdd18 (Oct 19, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> None of the above, i say a Ironclad in a droppod.


That's a good idea but do you need more than one for it to truly be effective? Right now I have 295 points to spare on AT.


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## dakari-mane (Mar 9, 2007)

The tricky thing is that "best anti-tank unit" is such a hard one to answer. Each of the above listed units has its plus's & minuses. 
Land speeders - Fast, cant be tied up in CC, only av 10, expensive.
Attack Bikes - Fast, can be tied up in cc but equally can be used to tie people up in cc.
Dev squad - resilient, expensive
Predator - best way to shoehorn in las-cannons IMO especially if you leave the AC on the top, vunerable to infantry assault & mobile AT as AV 11 sucks.
Vindi - not a fan myself as the range is too short. that said it can make a mess of both infantry & tanks & is a great deterrent for having lurking about your fire base or for pushing forwar in a spearhead. 

It really depends what else is in your army/


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

HF/MM Land Speeders, by so far it's not even funny.

Second are Attack Bikes. So much less cost-effective, they make me lol.


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## zchdd18 (Oct 19, 2008)

This is whats in my army:

HQ:

Captain Darnath Lysander 

Troop:

Space Marine Tactical Squad 
-5x Marines
-Meltagun
-Power Fist
-Multi-Melta
-Rhino


Space Marine Tactical Squad 
-5x Marines
-Meltagun
-Power Fist
-Multi-Melta
-Rhino

Elites:

Grey Knight Terminators 
-Brother Captain
-4x GKT, Incinerator

Heavy Support:

Land Raider 
-Extra Armor

About 295 points left over for AT


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## terminatormonkey (May 6, 2009)

ah ok u do have a raider in there, my favorite anti tank is a chaplain with melta bombs or a pwr fist, stick him on a bike or give him a jump pack and turn him loose.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Seeing as the SM don't use lance weapons (silly Imperium!) I use land speeders with meltas. You can get a lot of shots at rear armour, and they aren't too expensive.


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## yorkypud (Mar 26, 2009)

attach bikes with meltas, meltas good with tanks, plus if using ravenwing teleport the termies down, take on tanks plus surrounding enemies


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## Gen. Confusion (Apr 26, 2008)

Attack bikes with multimeltas are what I voted for. I think landspeeders with mulitmeltas are a close 2ed.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Any of them can be fine choices as long as you use them correctly. They all have ups and downs that can cause you to really be screwed if you do the wrong thing. What confuses me though is, you have two multi-meltas, two twin-linked las cannons (I'm assuming you're using a standard LR since you didn't specify) and two melta guns and you don't think you have enough AT? Personally, I'd take devestators simply to fill out the ranks. You look pretty slim on bodies out there.

Edit: Unless you're totally adverse to changing your core build here. I'd personally ditch the LR for a drop pod and use the points you save to create a third tactical squad. What you lose with the LR as far as AT punch you can make up in the devestator squad easily. You'd go from 25 infantry models to nearly 45, have more las cannons on the table and not lose the ability to get your GK w/ Lysander on target with the pod.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

I voted Dev squad, as in my last game the only tank I managed to pop open was a lucky shot from a lascannon. That said, I am now running a fair amount of anti-tank in my 1500 list. I have a dev squad w/ 3 ml and 1 lc (the ml provides decent AT in the form of krak, and reasonable AI in the form of frag, but rarely will they get a shot at anything except front armour, but they do have a decent range, unlike melta's), a 3 man bike squad with 2 melta's and an attack bike with mm and a serg with combi-melta, and a drop-podding ironclad with mm. And my termies deep strike so at a pinch they can be used as can openers too.

I like the melta based bike squad muchly, but haven't had a chance to use it yet (playing several games on sat, but it's a first outing for the unit, so it will get blown to smithereens), and I agree with Warboss Dakka that you need more bodies. I used to run a LR too but found it was too expensive and largely ineffectual except as psychological warfare, so I swapped it out for a an extra Tac squad in rhino's, the drop pod dread, and to put my captain on a bike so now the bikers are scoring units too (if they survive their tank hunting duties...) Admittedly I now have a £30 model sitting idle, but it's a nasty surprise to spring on opponents every now and then, and it'll be useful in apoc.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Inquisitor Varrius said:


> Seeing as the SM don't use lance weapons (silly Imperium!) I use land speeders with meltas. You can get a lot of shots at rear armour, and they aren't too expensive.


:laugh: I'd take Meltas over my Lances literally any day.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I think speeders w/ multi meltas are the way to go, they can ignore terrain, which pushes them over bikes for me. Both have great mobility, but the ability to speed over to a larger piece of terrain, hide for a turn, and pounce out and blast targets of opportunity makes the speeder a little better.


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## zchdd18 (Oct 19, 2008)

I know I completely forgot the Dreadnought but that's whats really got my interest right now. I'm running mainly a Mech List so the bikes and devastators don't fit my theme as of right now. I'm thinking 2 separate Dreadnoughts both in Drop Pods. What do you guys think about that option?


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

zchdd18 said:


> I know I completely forgot the Dreadnought but that's whats really got my interest right now. I'm running mainly a Mech List so the bikes and devastators don't fit my theme as of right now. I'm thinking 2 separate Dreadnoughts both in Drop Pods. What do you guys think about that option?


make them ironclads with a multi-melta and flamer. Then laugh as your opponent eats armor 13 death.:laugh:


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

Dominion Squad


Please do not post in huge text, or in red, which is reserved for moderator messages, such as this one. -TSoH


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## zchdd18 (Oct 19, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> make them ironclads with a multi-melta and flamer. Then laugh as your opponent eats armor 13 death.:laugh:


OooO I like that idea


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

rokar4life said:


> Please do not post in huge text, or in red, which is reserved for moderator messages, such as this one. -TSoH



how about size 5?


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## pinkacidboots (May 23, 2009)

Id recommend at least one squad of MM/MM Land Speeders, keep them covered for as long as possible, then rush them in and hit them in the rear armour, with armies like IG, where there is a distinct lack in light AT, as lasguns have no effectr and heavy weapons teams will be tied up, the speeders can cut a huge streak of burning tanks across the board. They always get my vote


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Double MM Speeders have no flexibilty.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> :laugh: I'd take Meltas over my Lances literally any day.


Meltalance anyone???


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

zchdd18 said:


> This is whats in my army:
> 
> HQ:
> 
> ...


One question, by x5 Marines do you mean +5 Marines, as in a 10 man squad?

If you do then I'd recommend 2 Vindicators, 2 S10 2D6 Armour Penetration is no laughing matter and the amount of general death dealing nasties has just been upped to 4(I assume you are putting Lysander with the Grey Knights). Your opponent gets 4 ultra nasty targets to choose from, Landraider, a pain in the a** to kill, 2 Vindicators, pretty much kill whatever they're pointed at and Lysander and the Grey Knights who are awesome in close combat. Plus the Vindicators can handle troops so that isn't much of a problem either.:good:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It's not 2d6, it's 2d6, pick highest.


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

When it comes to serious anti-tank, try to capitalize on twin linked weapons. Yeah landspeeders equipped with missle launchers and multi-meltas are great for getting side shot and what not, but bolters can bring em' down like nothing. TL Lascannon Predator+HB sponsons, and maybe even have the points left over for a Razorback sporting the same thing. Thats alot of twin linked lascannons for this size army.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Testarosa said:


> When it comes to serious anti-tank, try to capitalize on twin linked weapons. Yeah landspeeders equipped with missle launchers and multi-meltas are great for getting side shot and what not, but bolters can bring em' down like nothing. TL Lascannon Predator+HB sponsons, and maybe even have the points left over for a Razorback sporting the same thing. Thats alot of twin linked lascannons for this size army.


Yeah, except that lascannons and missile launchers aren't really that great at busting tanks in this edition. Since even a penetrating hit will only destroy a vehicle 33% of the time it's vital that the shots you do take count. It's difficult to guarantee this even with a twin-linked lascannon against most targets. Hitting isn't a problem, but when it comes to trying to penetrate the vehicle's armor things become difficult. Needing to roll a 6 to penetrate a Leman Russ, Land Raider or whatever really sucks. 

This is why weapons like railguns and meltas are good. The former has a massive Strength value and AP1, so when you hit you have a good chance of making it count. AP1 increases the odds of destroying a vehicle on a penetrating hit to 50%, and even gives you the ability to destroy them on a glance, though the chances are rather slim at only approximately 17%. Melta weapons are grand because they're cheap and when you put them on a highly mobile platform it becomes easy to get within half range where the extra D6 of penetration comes into play. When you hit, you pretty much always cause at least _some_ sort of damage. One only needs roll a 7 or better on 2D6 to penetrate a Land Raider with a melta weapon which really isn't very hard, especially when you're able to get multiple melta hits at once. Since melta weapons also benefit from AP1, the same advantages that apply to railguns apply to them.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Better to mix in AT weapons in normal squads I find. If you have 5 meltas spaced out in 3 or 4 squads it's a lot more likely you can get in range and a lot less likely the enemy can kneecap your AT.

I prefer tanks over troops so I would take out any threats to my tanks ASAP.


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

295 can fit a land raider of any type, with a MM and buy a MM for the first land raider. nothing wrong with a MM that can always shoot, on an AV 14 tank. it's not fast, but you can count on it staying around for some time.
EDIT
if you drop a rhino, you can give those two LR extra armor. making sure your cc guys get where you need them. the second LR can have one of the tac squads inside, staying on an objective (or tank shocking some poor infantry guarding theirs).


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, except that lascannons and missile launchers aren't really that great at busting tanks in this edition. Since even a penetrating hit will only destroy a vehicle 33% of the time it's vital that the shots you do take count. It's difficult to guarantee this even with a twin-linked lascannon against most targets. Hitting isn't a problem, but when it comes to trying to penetrate the vehicle's armor things become difficult. Needing to roll a 6 to penetrate a Leman Russ, Land Raider or whatever really sucks.
> 
> This is why weapons like railguns and meltas are good. The former has a massive Strength value and AP1, so when you hit you have a good chance of making it count. AP1 increases the odds of destroying a vehicle on a penetrating hit to 50%, and even gives you the ability to destroy them on a glance, though the chances are rather slim at only approximately 17%. Melta weapons are grand because they're cheap and when you put them on a highly mobile platform it becomes easy to get within half range where the extra D6 of penetration comes into play. When you hit, you pretty much always cause at least _some_ sort of damage. One only needs roll a 7 or better on 2D6 to penetrate a Land Raider with a melta weapon which really isn't very hard, especially when you're able to get multiple melta hits at once. Since melta weapons also benefit from AP1, the same advantages that apply to railguns apply to them.


If four twin linked lascannons can't do the job, then I dont know what to say. He said he's running a mechanized force, so thats why I suggested the predator and razoback.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Testarosa said:


> If four twin linked lascannons can't do the job, then I dont know what to say. He said he's running a mechanized force, so thats why I suggested the predator and razoback.


I understand. I guess I'm thinking that in general a Marine list be it mech or otherwise would benefit more from fast moving melta Bikes than lascannons.

I mean, assuming we're firing all four twin-linked lascannons at the same target, we can expect the following on average:

4 hits. Against AV14, we should get one glancing or penetrating hit. The glancing hit probably won't help much as far as destroying the vehicle goes, but can be useful for preventing it from shooting. If it's a penetrating hit, there's a 1 in 3 chance that the vehicle will be either wrecked or will explode. Unfortunately four twin-linked lascannons oftentimes won't do the job, at least against the heaviest vehicles. Naturally if you're shooting at things like Chimeras, Rhinos or otherwise than your chances of destroying the vehicle are pretty good. Otherwise though, some Mobile Melta (trademark from the B&C) is the way to go.

Besides... it's not as if a mechanized list stops being mechanized by fielding Attack Bikes or Land Speeders with multi-meltas. I suppose if the idea is to have literally everything mounted in a tank of some kind then that'd cut down on your options but otherwise it should be smooth sailing.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Testarosa said:


> If four twin linked lascannons can't do the job, then I dont know what to say. He said he's running a mechanized force, so thats why I suggested the predator and razoback.


Yes...but for fewer points you can get 4 MMs on 3 threats, instead of those 2. It also allows you to use a Rhino Fire Point.

While I disagree with miss KD on whether Bikes > Speeders, we're firmly in accord on the principle.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I stil think a Ironclad in Pod is best ^^
And if it's a mech force All I can think of is that Vindicators, as much pimpage they deliver, Are prime targets and most likely not goin to be able to use them


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

Thats the great thing about Vindicators. Their bark is worse than their bite.

It gives the opposition something to shoot at as opposed to anything else in your army.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

True, they're best used to funnel the enemy away from objectives or such. Or shoot clumps of Infantry. They're not anti-tank by any means.


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I understand. I guess I'm thinking that in general a Marine list be it mech or otherwise would benefit more from fast moving melta Bikes than lascannons.
> 
> I mean, assuming we're firing all four twin-linked lascannons at the same target, we can expect the following on average:
> 
> ...


Ok, I secede to your point. Multi-melta's are a better bet when it comes down to the math. I just never liked the thought of the first good volley of bolter rounds killing off my expensive and in short supply anti-tank unit. Yeah, chances are high you'll slag that tank, but if it's being supported properly.... Lets face it, theres an art to using such weapons without getting killed, right?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes, kinda, but if you aren't playing KPs, it doesn't matter. Also, even a full Tac squad that, for whatever reason, only have Bolters firing are pretty unlikely to destroy a Speeder.

Assuming within 18", you get your 20 shots, roughly 14 hits, which is 2 Glances. Hardly that vulnerable to S4 after all.


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

Look, this guy doesn't have to believe me, and it's not unlikely at all. Every single time I have ever faced landspeeders they have died after the first volley my marines sent their way. Trust me, it is not hard to immobilize one. It doesn't take phenominal rolling to do it or even rapid fire. I think I like katie's statistical skills better, cause that can't be right. Just two glancing hits out of 20 rapid fire shots?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Testarosa said:


> Look, this guy doesn't have to believe me, and it's not unlikely at all. Every single time I have ever faced landspeeders they have died after the first volley my marines sent their way. Trust me, it is not hard to immobilize one. It doesn't take phenominal rolling to do it or even rapid fire. I think I like katie's statistical skills better, cause that can't be right. Just two glancing hits out of 20 rapid fire shots?


Heh, my mathematical abilities are _terrible_. It's best to take the word of others when it comes to any sort of number crunching with me.

20 shots... let's see. 2/3rds hit, so that's about 14 hits. 1 in 6 will glance, so that's 2 glancing hits, with two "leftover" hits to spare. It's rather rare that a unit fires nothing but bolter shots at a Land Speeder, though. Usually there's a special or even heavy weapon firing as well which can tip the odds pretty considerably, especially in the case of plasma guns and heavy bolters.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Heh, my mathematical abilities are _terrible_. It's best to take the word of others when it comes to any sort of number crunching with me.
> 
> 20 shots... let's see. 2/3rds hit, so that's about 14 hits. 1 in 6 will glance, so that's 2 glancing hits, with two "leftover" hits to spare. It's rather rare that a unit fires nothing but bolter shots at a Land Speeder, though. Usually there's a special or even heavy weapon firing as well which can tip the odds pretty considerably, especially in the case of plasma guns and heavy bolters.


Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear in my post...


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## Testarosa (Sep 24, 2008)

Ok, I'm done. 1 in 6, I guess must have better rolling then I thought. You were clear, it just didn't sound right.


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