# Grey Knights v Tau - Is their good greater ?



## Magpie_Oz

Word on the street is that Tau have come of age and are finally the army they should have always been.
I know in my area the Tau guys are extracting a horrendous toll while screaming "REVENGE !!!!!"
GK's were always noted as one of the shootier armies but it seems we are well and truly losing that moniker to the Tau.

On paper Firewarriors seem like paper tigers but the overwhelming S5 is a real threat. Where once we could simply close to combat and clean them up nicely it seems now we'll be lucky to get there at all. 

Our once Sex on Legs Dreadknight looks positively dowdy next to the somewhat taller and way better looking Riptide.

No one has accused my army of being OP in months !

This cannot go on !
How are we going to reclaim our Top Dog title again?
How do we take the Xeno's down like the dogs they are ?


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## jd579

I've been having real problems playing GK mate, your high strength psy cannons with psybolt ammo deep striking paladins and inquisitors cutting around with a conversion beamer has been causing havoc with my guys, I usually play a mate of mine who run loads of strike squads, usually in Rhinos, tooled up with Psy cannons, a load of IG type people with hotshot las guns and while I kill loads of them I think the best bet against Tau with any army is to close the gap mega quick with everyone, that way I am forced to shoot at alot of things, albeit with alot of guns but im not going to kill everything, once you have me hemmed into a table corner so to speak the CC is only ever going to end one way.

I have also found that your aegis ability really hampers my deep striking , coupled with servo skulls can reall piss up my deployment if im taking stealth teams etc etc, I can't speak for the guys who run sick tourny lists as my usual game doesnt require me to be a douch bag and ruin my opponants fun in that way. 

Summery, loads of smaller squads, loads of Psy cannons, deep strinking Paladins and rhinos to get you nice and close quickly seems to be how to do it, thats how my mate does it, and Im struggling to deal with it, hope this helps.


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## coke123

Grey Knights haven't been OP since 6th edition dropped, and even then I question the assertion that they were that far above the curve in 5th edition.

Grey Knights are more than capable of beating Tau; it's a pretty fair fight. Tau do basically invalidate double Raven as a strategy, but rock strategies always have their paper- hence I've always supported a more balanced ground based GK force.

Basically, in order to beat Tau, GK have to apply pressure early. Be far more aggressive than you usually would, get in their face, because this is one of a couple matchups were the GK are not the shooty army. Try to dump as many dudes in your army on your opponent's doorstep as possible and minimise the amount of fire you take before you hit combat.


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## Magpie_Oz

So advancing under armour and getting into CC ASAP is still the best strategy ?

Are there any tricks up our sleeves for diffusing the Tau overwatch abilities ?

Pathfinders seem pretty fragile so if they are taken out will that impact the markerlight abilities ?


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## Xabre

Diffuse overwatch by throwing squads forward. They can still only overwatch once per squad, so give them too many options.

I'd probably use Riflemen, because (especially with psyammo), the autocannons can hurt anything and everything in a Tau army.


Mordrak might not be a bad idea against Tau, even unsupported, just because he can crash their lines early. It's untested, I'm theorizing, but.... it might work. Throw in a Callidus to do more of the same?


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## Magpie_Oz

Xabre said:


> Throw in a Callidus to do more of the same?


There is a lot of Ld 7 in the Tau and her Neural Shredder will be quite affective against them. If she gets to assault them she can make a bit of a mess of them too.


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## TAU4298

If memory serves there is a piece of equipment that a Inquisitor can take an if said Inquisitor gets close enough 90 percent of our weapons (pulse/plasma) just became useless. 

Since I don't have a gk codex I can't look up the exact name or the rules behind this piece of equipment and though im sure its a ordo xeno Inquisitor 

My 2¢


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## MidnightSun

Magpie_Oz said:


> GK's were always noted as one of the shootier armies but it seems we are well and truly losing that moniker to the Tau.


At 30" or more? True, they're better, but so are IG and we've dealt with that for our entire lifetime. At 24"? You balance out, with Prescience + Pysbolts making a real mess of... well, anything, really. Psycannons are still the best punch-per-point squad-level weapon in the game.



Magpie_Oz said:


> On paper Firewarriors seem like paper tigers but the overwhelming S5 is a real threat. Where once we could simply close to combat and clean them up nicely it seems now we'll be lucky to get there at all.


Overwhelming Str5 is tripartite - the Firewarriors are the raw power, aimed by the Markerlights, honed by the Ethereal. If you've ever read the Demonata, think of this as the Kah-Gash. Remove any one part and you'll remove the whole (how Tau!) - you kill the Fire Warriors, the Markerlights and Ethereals are buffers with nothing to buff. You kill the Ethereals, it's easier to make the Fire Warriors run away, and they fire less shots. You kill the Markerlights, the Fire Warriors hit less and so the threat is decreased (they also become less versatile). 

I'd always go for the Ethereal - there's a reason everyone goes after the healer, and in this case it's no different. Say hello to Assassins - against Tau, I would actually recommend the Vindicare. Just be sure to give them other, more pressing threats, or they'll strip your cover from you and then kill you, in the face, very hard. You only need one or two shooting phases to do real damage though, take out Ethereals and Fireblades if you're against massed Fire Warriors or the Commander if they've got one (because he is so b0rken omg !!11!) and you're sorted.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Our once Sex on Legs Dreadknight looks positively dowdy next to the somewhat taller and way better looking Riptide.


Except you fucking teleport, and while his scary large blast kills your Grey Knights dead, your Torrent Incinerator responds in kind for his Infantry, except his cover doesn't save him and you can't Get Hot!. You also smack stuff in the face a lot harder - 12" + 2D6" is quite a threat range that even the Riptide can't be sure of avoiding, and if you can apply a Greatsword to it's squishy bits you can make it go boom pretty quick.

Maybe consider taking some Interceptors to counter the new Tau threat? I'd always go with Psycannons, but if he's the type of cunning bastard who hides behind Aegis Lines I'd bite the bullet and pay out for Incinerators. If he's a Railgun man, go with a lot of Strikes, but if he's more the kind of dude to take mainly Crisis Suits and Fire Warriors, you might consider some Solodins to really fuck with his target priority.

Always, always keep The Shrouding and Warp Rift as powers, but swap out Coteaz' powers for Divination/Telepathy. Warp Quake is more important than Hammerhand against Tau as you don't need the combat help, but their Battlesuits can make nasty little deep-striking surprises.



TAU4298 said:


> If memory serves there is a piece of equipment that a Inquisitor can take an if said Inquisitor gets close enough 90 percent of our weapons (pulse/plasma) just became useless.
> 
> Since I don't have a gk codex I can't look up the exact name or the rules behind this piece of equipment and though im sure its a ordo xeno Inquisitor


Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon, makes all Plasma/Pulse fire Snap Shots within 6". Otherwise known as a large neon sign with 'Shoot my T3 power-armoured ass!'. If you can deliver it safely (like hidden inside a unit of Paladins), great. If not, you're the biggest damn target on the board.

Midnight


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## coke123

Magpie_Oz said:


> So advancing under armour and getting into CC ASAP is still the best strategy ?
> 
> Are there any tricks up our sleeves for diffusing the Tau overwatch abilities ?
> 
> Pathfinders seem pretty fragile so if they are taken out will that impact the markerlight abilities ?


I've had a few more games vs Tau, and I'm now convinced that if you flat out Turn 1 into positions near their lines but minimising the amount of T1 firepower, that is the best way to beat them.

The biggest issue with beating them with pure GK is actually answering their Riptides- that 2+ armour save just negates so much of your firepower, and you can't answer them with dreadknights like you could do against a wraithknight or Nid MC, since the Riptide itself has more than enough firepower to put it down with markerlight support.

I play with Guard allies, so it's less of a concern, since I can just load up on plasma veterans, but for pure GK I think I'd start considering sprinkling a few daemon hammers in my GKSS units- just one in 2-3 units should be enough, and it means you can charge pretty much any of these new generation MCs GW is putting out and at least have a reasonable chance at putting it down. Lists absolutely require at least some way of putting down these MCs; I think I'd rate it on the same level of importance as bringing AA.

If they have pathfinders, obviously take them out ASAP, since Tau kinda suck without them, but a lot of people I've seen have stopped taking dedicated marker units and have opted to sprinkle marker drones throughout their units. There might be one unit of pathfinders/marker drones to get the ball rolling, but after that they'll just use drones attached to crisis/riptides/broadsides/skyrays, so it becomes quite hard to do.


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## Magpie_Oz

How about our Psychic Powers? 
The total lack of any Psykers in the Tau will make Deny the Witch a tall ask for the Tau.
With I2 the old Warp Rift is going to do some major damage.

I see that many things in the Tau forces are BS3 drones are even worse at BS2, doesn't that reduce the threat of the markerlights some what? 
I mean they have to hit before anything bad can happen?


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## Magpie_Oz

OK so I had my first run against Tau the other day. Didn't end well.

I opted for a Deep Striking army, hoping to get up close and personal and cut down my exposure to fire. Of course the big risk is that Deep Striking tends to make your army arrive in little packets and thus they are vulnerable to being show to hell piece by piece.

Which is pretty much what happened

My list:
On Table 
Grey Knight Interceptor Squad of 5 with Incinerator
Nemesis Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter,Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator

Deep Strikers 
2 x Grey Knight Terminator Squads, Psybolt Ammunition
Librarian, Psybolt Ammunition + The Shrouding + The Summoning + Warp Rift 5

Airborne
Ordo Xenos InquisitorUlumeathi Plasma Syphon Upgrade to Psyker 
Techmarine,Servo-skulls x 3
1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, Psybolt Ammunition
1 Stormraven Gunship, Psybolt Ammunition + Hurricane Bolters + Assaut Cannon + Multi-Melta

His list was

Riptide
Crisis Suit Commander + 2 Bodyguard
3 squads of Fire warriors 
1 squad of Pathfinders
1 Squad of stealth suits
Railhead and Ionhead
Broadside.

The Interceptors were destroyed turn one by infiltrating stealth suits. I'd forgotten to deploy my servo skulls 

The Dreadknight was originally tasked to Shunt move forward and eat the pathfinders but had to cling to terrain to avoid being wiped out before my reserves arrived and the opportunity to destroy the Pathfinders passed.

Raven and Termie squad came on turn 2. Termies deep striked into the ruin the riptide had moved to. They suffered heavy casualites but the sole survivor managed to get into CC with the Riptide and tie him up for a bit.

Dreaknight wiped the Stealth suits but for 1 guy. Raven took 2 wounds off the Riptide.

Turn 3 Raven hovered and the termies got out and charged the Ionhead (destroyed).
Librarian and Termie squad arrived and DS'ed into the rear looking to get the pathfinders but scattered and ended up warp rifting and shooting a fire warrior squad. They were then shot to hell by everyone else.

Turn 4 Dreadknight died to the Riptide who had now won his combat and Broadside. Squad from the Raven ran into the ruin to hunt the Riptide. Techmarine on board the Raven repaired an immobilised result and the flyer moved into shoot at the Riptide again. Took one more wound off it.

Turn 5 the final turn, Raven flew towards the Pathfinders, single hull point left. Fired all it could at the pathfinders but to little effect. Tau Commander special ability gave "gets hot" to raven weapons however no 1's result from all the shooting.

Raven shot down and crashes causing no casualties. Occupants survive but are shot by the entire Tau army. 

Tau win big time !

Lessons
Plasma Syphon on the OX Inq n the Raven actually worked really well in diminishing some of the shooting, but not by enough.
Stormraven worked quite well too but again not well enough to carry the day on it's own.
Coming in bit by bit made it easy for him to pick off my units as they arrived. 
Pathfinders are the priority target.


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## coke123

Magpie_Oz said:


> How about our Psychic Powers?
> The total lack of any Psykers in the Tau will make Deny the Witch a tall ask for the Tau.
> With I2 the old Warp Rift is going to do some major damage.
> 
> I see that many things in the Tau forces are BS3 drones are even worse at BS2, doesn't that reduce the threat of the markerlights some what?
> I mean they have to hit before anything bad can happen?


If you're in range to Warp Rift, they're about to get assaulted by a GK Libby, which is enough to deal with anything short of a Riptide, so that's less of an issue. Even then that 1/6 chance to say no is kinda risky with no redundancy.

There are a ton of ways around BS3/2- You can attach Drone Controllers to units (a commander gives them BS5!) and Farseers are a really common ally, and can essentially twin-link 2 Tau units per turn, which really helps with their crappy BS.

I think Misfortune is one of the best things you have in your arsenal, but that cannot be guaranteed.


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## Magpie_Oz

coke123 said:


> If you're in range to Warp Rift, they're about to get assaulted by a GK Libby, which is enough to deal with anything short of a Riptide, so that's less of an issue. Even then that 1/6 chance to say no is kinda risky with no redundancy.
> 
> There are a ton of ways around BS3/2- You can attach Drone Controllers to units (a commander gives them BS5!) and Farseers are a really common ally, and can essentially twin-link 2 Tau units per turn, which really helps with their crappy BS.
> 
> I think Misfortune is one of the best things you have in your arsenal, but that cannot be guaranteed.


Certainly Warp Rift was effective in my game on the weekend. Only problem was I had intended for it to be used against the Riptide but it didn't work out that way. Probably not worth the Libby's points for a single power to be honest.

The lower BS on the Pathfinders was not any form of problem. They fired so many Markerlights and had so few targets to choose from that they always go enough hits and from then on basically each unit that used a markerlight, replaced it with one of their own.

Definitely needed to have more units on the field and to take out the Pathfinders before all else.


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## coke123

Magpie_Oz said:


> Definitely needed to have more units on the field and to take out the Pathfinders before all else.


That's why I <3 Manticores!


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## Magpie_Oz

coke123 said:


> That's why I <3 Manticores!


I had banked on Interceptors with Incinerators but made a setup mistake and they were taken out.
Maybe it is just bad luck but I have never found Manticores to be anything other than wildly inaccurate.


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## coke123

It's bad luck.

Basically, don't fire them without direct LoS, and you should be fine.


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## neferhet

Bad luck, yes. You should pray Matt Ward/the Dark Gods for good scatter rolls. It works,sometimes!


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## chnmmr

I'm a Grey Knight player who has tried a bunch of different setups against the new Tau Codex, and I'm dismayed to discover that so far nothing works. I don't appear to have enough answers to fight the Tau. I can't assault them, my transports blow up before I get near them, my terminators are irrelevant because of Ap2 blast, can't use cover, etc etc (the list I'm sure has been mentioned many times before.)

It feels like the Tau are the hard counter to everything that is Grey Knight and I'm quite desperate to find a way to have fun against Tau.


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## Magpie_Oz

chnmmr said:


> I'm a Grey Knight player who has tried a bunch of different setups against the new Tau Codex, and I'm dismayed to discover that so far nothing works. I don't appear to have enough answers to fight the Tau. I can't assault them, my transports blow up before I get near them, my terminators are irrelevant because of Ap2 blast, can't use cover, etc etc (the list I'm sure has been mentioned many times before.)
> 
> It feels like the Tau are the hard counter to everything that is Grey Knight and I'm quite desperate to find a way to have fun against Tau.


All advice I am getting is to use GKSS or Purifiers in Rhinos


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## coke123

^^Pretty much.

A Rhino Rush with proper use of cover is probably the best way to go. You beat them in assault, not shooting.


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