# What is the cheesiest unit in the game?



## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

Ok since I keep seeing complaints on the forums about which units are Cheese I have decided that its time to start a list of the worst, especially as I haven't been playing long enough to have experienced all the worst cheddar in the game.
So which units are the cheesiest in your opinion?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Eldrad.

After that, banshees.

Way, way way way too cost-effective and both have stupid rules by a stupid man, who made a decent codex way overpowered because he plays them.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

What is 'cheese' in this context please?


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## N0rdicNinja (Sep 17, 2008)

darklove said:


> What is 'cheese' in this context please?


What Star Cannons used to be


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Chuck Norris..........in power armour


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

hmm to define the cheese... ok Cheesiness would be the most ridiculously effective unit for its points cost in your opinion, like LordWaffle's example of Eldrad


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

TheUnmarked said:


> hmm to define the cheese... ok Cheesiness would be the most ridiculously effective unit for its points cost in your opinion, like LordWaffle's example of Eldrad


except Eldrad isn't cheesy, allot of cheesy things have been buggered in 5th really, like genestealers, banshees etc, heck its the only thing its done right, monoliths are still a bitch, but with 5ths concentration on objectives its stupid to take loads


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I don't think Monoliths are cheese. They cost a lot of points, are the only vehicle in the army, are the only template weapon in the army, and you don't have to fire a single shot at them to kill them.


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## surreal-mind (Oct 11, 2008)

[edit] actually, i think the changeling is verry cheesy


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## cooldudeskillz (Jun 7, 2008)

the changleing...5 points for what he can do, thats mental but hey i aint complaing:wink:


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## thegreenronin (Mar 25, 2008)

Point for pint fire warriors are the best unit in the game.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

fire warriors are horseshit.

if you want to win 40k you want boyz and lootaz.

6 points for a ws4, s4 model with 3 attacks, fleet when it counts, and a 5+ cover save?


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

cooldudeskillz said:


> the changleing...5 points for what he can do, thats mental but hey i aint complaing:wink:


It actually works out at about 90pts because you need to by the unit.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

thegreenronin said:


> Point for pint fire warriors are the best unit in the game.


I laughed so hard wee came out


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Lootas are insanely cheesy. Heck to nobs get 30 lootas and blow the enemy away! For their points cost, you get a standard Predator that walks and has a chance of three shots each! 
Predator = 60 points
4 Lootas = 60 points

Which ones better, hmmm?

Oh and Torealis, try to take away the stats please. It's against forum rules. You're a Senior Moderator! You should know!


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## cooldudeskillz (Jun 7, 2008)

darklove said:


> It actually works out at about 90pts because you need to by the unit.


yer but then you get horrors which are good themselves


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

Ork Boyz - very effective for only +6pts each!! not that im complianin of course!!
basalisks - effectively anywhere on the board (except possibly apoc) and only about 70pts (correct me if im wrong!!)
Avatar (unless theyv changed the stats - i havnt seen the new codex) - 50pts for a ridiculous amount of power!!.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

basilisks are ridiculously effective, even in apoc. alls you need to do is aim it in the area you want and BANG! nothin left, gotta love my Iron Warriors


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah I agree with bassies. 100pts gets you a mobile S9 AP3 Blast template cannon.


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## Hooman (Mar 9, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> Chuck Norris..........in power armour


lol, definitely.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Being a Thousand Sons player, I'd have to agree with Eldrad as "cheesey", but take that with more than a grain of salt- If my army was less Psychically-inclined, he wouldn't be so bad...


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> Chuck Norris..........in power armour


He don't need no stinking power armor, on a 1+ he catches bolter shots with his teeth and shits them back out as lascannon shots which insta-penatrate and insta-death, even kills eternal warriors. His only upgrade is a headband for 5pts _He now looks cool kicking your ass_ His cost is variable depending on how many the total are, it's always total -5 pts.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

There is no cheese. Sheesh.


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

Hespithe said:


> There is no cheese. Sheesh.


there is always, and will always be, cheese. fact of life - there not a lot you can do about it!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

jakkie said:


> basalisks - effectively anywhere on the board (except possibly apoc) and only about 70pts (correct me if im wrong!!)


try 100-125, and there not very effective, get under there massive minimum range and there forced to expose there weak armour value out in the open


jakkie said:


> Avatar (unless theyv changed the stats - i havnt seen the new codex) - 50pts for a ridiculous amount of power!!.


I think hes 100pts, its been a while since I looked at the Eldar codex, but its a heck of allot more than 50pts for something so easy to kill


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

He costs 155. And hes not easy to kill.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> He costs 155. And hes not easy to kill.


I've never had a problem with him, and I've not known anyone who has, especially once he gets in close combat, my god he sucks, its no wonder nobody uses them round here anymore


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## Ezekiface 73 (Oct 22, 2008)

He looks Impressive though...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Ezekiface 73 said:


> He looks Impressive though...


well the FW ones do, the GW ones look about as scary as a kitten


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I beg to differ, Stella


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

If peopple want to pretty much ask "what's the most annoying thing you hate fighting?" it would ba Abbadon (Nearly every Chaos player uses him everytime in every points game) and fateweaver (can never seem to kill him).


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

Hammerheads, the darn things. They're better than Leman Russes, and worth less... it's not fair! Darn tau... one day I'll beat them!


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## UltiLink (Sep 4, 2008)

Shadow field for de, sure only one a force, but the damn thing survived 3 fire warriors rapid fire, 3 fusion blasters, 3 burst cannons, 4 pl shots, and all but one of 6 mp shots.


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## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

In terms of looks id say the harliquens their bloody clowns!


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

as a khornat-ian im gonna say nothing that kharn couldn't chop up!


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## Orc Town Grot (Jun 28, 2008)

There isn't really any cheese. 

There never was. 

Cry babies just can't help crying when they get beaten. Cheese was not the wraithlord, cheese was taking 3 wraithlords. Boo HOO hoo! "Cheese cheese cheese", cried those who couldn't beat that. Some idiot sobbing infants even made special tournament rules so that there would be a penalty for players who sought to maximise their power through unbalanced units. This was stupid because good players could usually beat "cheese" or EAT it if you prefer. Cheese was the idea that some units were too strong for their points.

And cheese was the idea that the PLAYER was WRONG for choosing things that had been written and designed by the "experts" and the "professionals" in the company.

I suggest you forget the word cheese and refuse to be intimidated by sobbing wailing complaints that as a player you are CHEATING. The company wrote the rules and is responsible for all of it. 

Make any damn list you like so long as its codex legal story over.

Sure, some combos are very strong versus some opponents and lists.

But there is no uberlist. 

In tournament play against good players, what you think is going to be tough will always be exposed.

OTG.

But these days the units are mostly pretty well balanced


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

IMO, itd be either looted wagons - their basic points value is 35, adn you can give them a str8 ap2 large blast weapon for only 90pts. plus they are scratch-build do you can make then any size you want which, in 5th ed is a huge advantage.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Perhaps cheesy isn't the word I might use, but I will point out that point disparrities are incredibly annoying in my opinion. If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, it's comparing equal tasked units and seeing massive differences in their point values. 

Since someone brought up Eldrad, he's "cheesy" because a standard Farseer with the same equipment still costs more and doesn't come with the extra rules and stats. 

Compare the standard Orc boy to the standard Nid Guant; basically they serve exactly the same purpose, but one is dramatically more capable rules wise and statistically but costs less. That's "Cheesy". 

There are many further examples I could use, but you probably get the idea at this point. If there's one thing I can safely see is "cheesy" or "unfair", it's the points system... that doesn't really exist in anyway shape or form. Or to put it better; it's stupid.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Orc Town Grot said:


> There isn't really any cheese.
> 
> There never was.
> 
> ...


While I say OTG comes off as a bit harsh (may not have been his intent), I have to agree with him on this. There are no super units. There are no magic bullets. And the only cheese is that squeeze stuff in a guardsman's ration pack.

Oh no, wraithlords are too powerful. Tell that to the nids or daemottes with rending claws. Oh golly gee wiz, plague marines are unstoppable! Mr. Battlecannon and his good friend Mr. Plasmacannon would like to disagree. Scouts in camo-cloaks with a master of the chapter are indestructable with their super-uber-fantastic cover save. Have we heard of heavy flamers or frag grenades? Lootas don't cost enough for this magic guns that shoot death and sparkles! Dude, they have a BS of 2. My grandmother has a better chance of shooting something then they do, and she is dead and buried for a few years now (rest in peace, gramma). Every unit has a weakness. The goal of the game is to find that weakness and exploit it. That is what we call strategy.

Well, that is my $0.03 worth (damn you weak american dollar!)


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Orc Town Grot said:


> There isn't really any cheese.
> 
> There never was.
> 
> ...


This is true to an extent- but some things really are a bit annoying, are they cheeting? no. but they are dificult to beat useing conventional stratgies and lists, and that annoys people. It is always posible to beet these "cheesy" units, but in doing so you sometimes have to overhaul an army you liked, or do somthing you normaly would never think of. This annoyes people because they dont want to change anything because in this hoby changeing things generaly meens giving money to games workshop in some way. Not always but generaly. 

Sometimes people just need to complain, and I dont begrudge them that- I in fact join in.

Ork boyz. Dammit- for the same points a guardsman, you get high toughfness, and the lower BS dosent really impeede them because their weapons are stronger so they wound more often so they are basicaly as good as guardsmen at shooting. they have less armor, but against aorks guardsmen get no armor when shooting, and in assault guardsmen are like lambs to the slaughter. And dont even get me started on their leadership rules! 

On the otherhand, 4 or 5 heavy bolters can work wonders.

PS: Lord Murdock, try deep striking a melta suport squad- works like a charm.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

torealis said:


> fire warriors are horseshit.
> 
> if you want to win 40k you want boyz and lootaz.
> 
> 6 points for a ws4, s4 model with 3 attacks, fleet when it counts, and a 5+ cover save?



No need to putdown someones army there,it's a little personal that attack.
And yes stats need removing.


Pariahs?...NOT
Um I'd say SM Plasma Cannon's cheap as anyhting these dyas for what they do.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

i'm going to have to both agree and disagree with it all. i agree that nothing in the game SHOULD be considered cheesy, but there are things that are IMHO. i have a list of things i complain about every time i play, so here we go.

FIREWARRIORS - bear in mind its not the firewarriors that i hate, its the extra range on their gun coupled with the extra point of strength.

CRISIS SUITS- i had to give up playing my plague marine's thanks to these lovely jump shoot jump plasma missle totting gits.

HOWLING BANSHEE'S- ...their is no way at all to negate their incredibly stupid ASF rule. they should be reduced to initiative speed for what they do and cost.

SUPER UNKILLABE WAVE SERPENT DELIVERY SYSTEM- in a game where mobility is 90% of what wins the game these are retarded and phil kelly should be fired for ever touching the eldar codex. if you can't stop it...and you can't, then how do you prevent this army from walking all over you? answer? you can't.

ELDRAD- .....i play thousand sons.....he shuts my army down when he hits the field...

MONOLITHS- honestly? its AV14 all around, costs 15 pnts more then a LR, melta, monsterous, and ordinace do not gain their bonus's agenst it, AND the best you can hope for to pen this is a 5 or 6 on a D6...assuming you have weapons at str 10 in your army.

GENESTEALERS with OUTFLANK- i love it when they go to the wrong side, but its so rare...

IG 100% ARMORED LISTS- if you have to build a specail list just to scratch it....its cheesey imho.

now mind you, this is but a fraction of the things that erk me, and if you notice, most of it needs something to join it to make it cheesy. for example, Banshee's are cheesy on their own...once they hit CC, shooting at them reduces them down though and makes them less cheesy... pop them in a unkillable wave serpent of doom? and you cannot shoot at them any more, because you cannot kill their tank, which means they'll get the charge with a full squad, which means your gaurunteed to loose atleast 1 whole squad to these....multiply this by 2 or 3 units and its retarded...


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> And yes stats need removing.


No they don't. Its entire statlines and individual points costs you can't post, somebody couldn't use the unit with just the information given above.

Back on topic; Death Company! They are free! I don't really know what I would call cheese, seeing as I play Grey Knights I suppose I could say everything...


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Banshees.

Best point for point CC fighter in the game. Sure you can shoot them but not if they are in skimmers which you cannot hit anyways and have way too many weapons to destroy. 

:/


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Orc Town Grot said:


> There isn't really any cheese.
> 
> There never was.
> 
> ...


Spoken like a true nob biking ork 

Fact is, there are uber lists, see chaos lash/blits/zerks/pms, or see nob bikers with loota support(Last edition you could replace these quotes with anything eldar). Of course many people don't play braindead armies that can win by showing up.

As for my vote, the basic ork infantry is way, way too good for six points, nobs in general, lash is pretty cheese when used in pairs, and banshees/eldrad(three psychic powers a turn he'll never fail and he shuts down all your psychic powers).

banshees because they'll statistically wipe out an entire marine unit without suffering losses, and they'll get there in unkillable phil kelly transports. Awesome.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Having played 40k for over 15 years, It's MHO that there is no "uberunits" at this point in time, although there are some very strong, dare I say, _cheesy _ units out there; one of them being Thousand Sons. Seriously all of yall Tson players need to stop whining about Eldrad while you've got universal AP3 bolters. I only get those on one unit in my entire army, and I couldn't field more than 3 squads of Sternvets even if I wanted to! Cheesy, perhaps; but not uber.

I've never had a major problem with the PK Wave Serpents. Either my opponent fields only one or two of them or none at all, so I've never been that pressed to take them out. Eldrad is definitely strong, but he can be killed; it just takes a lot of plasma cannons.

I can definitely see where people are coming from on all of these, though. Daemons are probably the closest thing to outright overpowered I've ever played, but they can be beaten if you pick your fights carefully. That's my two cents, anyway.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> Back on topic; Death Company! They are free! I don't really know what I would call cheese, seeing as I play Grey Knights I suppose I could say everything...


Death company aren't free. BA pay more for each base unit to make up for the free trooper.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

All it is GW making errors in balance and people using it to it's maximum advantage by taking 30 banshees in a list though most armoies have one of these types of men so I see no cheese but almost permanent mistakes after all the ork has one weakness - you charge him they are I2 a SM can punch him and kill him with upto 3 Attacks before he strikes and kills him. Therefore no cheese.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

except that if your 10 marines tac squad charges my 25 boy mob you can reasonably expect to kill maybe four or five orks, before the boys strike back and bring down 5 marines. Next turn? you now have 1/4 the attacks back so you can expect to kill two or three, before you're pulled kicking and screaming to the ground...

And with the whole "50% of my squad is behind cover so EVERYONE gets a 4+ save - it's RAW" is bullshit that only serves to help orks & nids....


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## Muzza69er (Feb 18, 2009)

Deathcompany lol there free and they Fkn Smash Everything

Assault Terminator	5	Landraider Reedemer, Thunderhammer Storm Shields in a army with Kor’Sarro Khan meens the landraider gets the reserves special rule with the termies in it come on thats cheese as all cheese


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## Muzza69er (Feb 18, 2009)

personally the cheese is more in the list design then the unit itself its very easy to make a cheesey list by exlpoiting the special rules like with my reedemer example who isnt ganna be scared of a outflanking reedemer its a pretty cheesey way of using Kor’Sarro Khans special rule but hey thats wat the game is about learnign the rules and bending them to the best of your ability to make your army as strong as possible


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

full infantry guard lists in apocolypse (shudder) i play khorne so you might think i would have a heyday. kill 5 squads a turn but get shredded by the remaining guardsmen. kharn and 20 zerkers caught around 80 lasgun rounds :scare: it SUCKED


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

LMAO- you could kill about 500 guard and they would still be winning. I've been playing nids vs tank companies and hating it, but I guess thats better then infantry companies


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> All it is GW making errors in balance and people using it to it's maximum advantage by taking 30 banshees in a list though most armoies have one of these types of men so I see no cheese but almost permanent mistakes after all the ork has one weakness - you charge him they are I2 a SM can punch him and kill him with upto 3 Attacks before he strikes and kills him. Therefore no cheese.


It's not exactly an error in balance it is however those power gaming filth mongers out there that can't HELP themselves but grab 45 lootas or whatever.

Just because you "can" do something doesn't mean you "should"

Try to remember we produce a hobby game NOT a competitive sport. It's supposed to be about the fun and having a laugh not mercilessly beating your opponent into the floor. yep some combos are going to be hard as nails others are going to suck. I wish i could win a game with my 15 Deffkopta army, but it just sucks. It is however an absolute blast to play.

One of my regular opponents wanted a full Skink list for WFB ( I digress from 40k here but the principle is the same ). He built it and it turned out to be a completely unstoppable monster. Now he fields other bits and pieces so as to give himself and others a challenge. I have a ridiculous Orc + Goblin list that will happily paste most things. I don't use it since i know it'll likely win. What's the point in that? I will however happily fish it out if any of the regulars in our store get cocky with the "I'm unbeatable, I've never lost" though :biggrin:


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## wdwc (Jan 31, 2009)

Maybe gw should make better fluff codexes like they use too. I don't see cheese as much I see useless units.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

to the Above, whom ever said it is correct, a porper T son army is a cheesey build IF, and i stress the IF part as i'm sure Wraithlord and Dendris will back me on this, you are not only playing agenst an MEQ army, but have Manuevered to 100% effectivness and made NO deployment mistakes. the ONLY other army that compaire point for point to the total expensiveness of the T sons are the full on Pure grey knight armies.Also, aside from to stupidly expensive sorcerer who has no choice but to take a psychic power, the unit has 0 upgrades to help it out. you get what you get and thats it. so do i think its bullshit a single eldar model shuts my army down to almost 100% effectivness? your god damned right i do.

if i read correctly your a DA player? now how cheesy is a T sons list if your Raven/Death wing get into our lines on turn 1 and start immediatly shutting our shooty army down in CC?


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

cheese is point effective models being excessivly used known as power gaming in 3rd ed i was a blood angels player and mephy honour gaurd and lemartes with death company were cheesy with sweeping advance unstoppable once in your ranks.

though banshees were a very effective counter unit


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> I've never had a problem with him, and I've not known anyone who has, especially once he gets in close combat, my god he sucks, its no wonder nobody uses them round here anymore


Yep, considering he's suppose to be a living incarnation of a God his statline doesn't do him justice.

I always thought banshees were cheese.


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## kholek09 (Feb 4, 2009)

darklove said:


> I don't think Monoliths are cheese. They cost a lot of points, are the only vehicle in the army, are the only template weapon in the army, and you don't have to fire a single shot at them to kill them.


WHAT??!!??!:shok::shok:
how exactly do you destroy a av14 *ON ALL SIDES* vehicle that can only ever be rolled d6+str for armour penetration?
:shok::shok::shok::shok::shok::shok::shok::shok::shok::shok:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Kill 3/4 of the warriors (ok, and a few other infantry models) and the whole army phases out- you dont need to even try to kill the monolith at all...
As a SW I would ignore it.. and as a Nid I would ignore it unless it was in charge range of a fex.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I think all the units that scream cheese have an effective counter and its just about knowing what that is and putting it in the cheese units way.
30 banshees are difficult to kill in combat but are also fragile and low strength, The monolith is resistant to most shooting but it means the rest of the army will phase out quicker as its expensive,
Mephiston is really hard and can take a battle cannon to the face and laugh it off but will die fairly quickly if you swamp him with nid swarms or loads of ork boys.
The cheesiest list I've ever used was a firedragon heavy list all mounted against marines which gave me 30+ ap2 shots at close range and a few squads of bladestorming dire avengers, Against Marine infantry and any vehicle heavy army like a tank company it would destroy loads (I took out 23 marines in a turn) but against any horde or even another Eldar or Tau army it would die badly.


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## LJT_123 (Dec 26, 2007)

Ammo Runts. Yeah I guess they are only 3 points. But seriously, what is the chance of an Ork re-rolling, and hitting it's target?


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Ork boys, above 10 men (almost mandatory unless you play speed freeks) an they're fearless, 4? attacks on the charge at strength 4 and you think they're not cheesy. The biggest problem is is that an army full of them is just fluffy, not a '@%£$"&! power gamers army. The only thing that can properly match them is another close combat army (Black Templars, Space Wolves, Nids) or guard and even then you'd have to be an absolute tactical genius.

Personally my money would be on the Black Templars (gotta love 70pt Typhoons and 20 man SPACE MARINE squads)


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm going to go ahead and say anything with the word "Necron" in front of it. With the new rules We'll Be Back is pretty broken. The 'crons need an update and they need it YESTERDAY.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

lootas=cheese.
D3 S7 ap 4 shots? roll once for the entire unit? for just 675pts you can have 45, who can pump out up to 135 shots per turn. good by horde. good by heavy armoured elites. good by light tanks. good by friends.

also, a friend of mine drop pods 10 assult marines on the first turn(he said he was goingeasy-they could have been vanguard led by khan), and has 30 CSM in 3 rhinos, which disembark, rapid fire, then charges with khain.


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