# Silver Skulls - a loyalist splinter of a traitor legion?



## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Does anyone else think that the Silver Skulls could belong to a loyalist splinter of a particular traitor legion based on their behaviour and traits?

If not, consider the following characteristics of the silver skulls.....

1) The Silver skulls believe that they have a special connection to the emperor and are zealous in their faith

2) They dogmatically follow their prognosticators, even to the point of viewing their auguries as coming from the emperor himself.

3) Highly superstitious and possess ritualistic tendencies, whether that being taking skulls of their enemies, making the sign of the aquilia to ward off evil, to having an entire funeral moon despite the practice of cremating their bodies

4) They are described by their enemies and allies alike as being proud and overbearing (ex. their motto), and tend to be harsh in their judgement
Furthermore, consider these additional interesting and unusual snippets about the silver skulls....

5) They have an unknown primarch, and guard their store of gene seed with an unusual level of secrecy. Considering how zealous most chapters are regarding this, whether that be guarding every relic from generation to generation or carving a legion of statues of their primarch on their homeworld, this seems almost unthinkable

6) Their body of knowledge, the orthodoxy, is the collected sum of prophecies made by the prognosticators and are treated as sacred texts. However, the word orthodoxy itself is a religious term, and in the slavic languages (on which the Silver Skulls appear to be based off of), the word can also mean "the right way to praise God". It should also be noted that most silver skulls are not allowed to view the orthodoxies as they are deemed "too sacred "

7) Location of their chapter is far away from Terra

8) Huron actually believes that he could turn the entire chapter to his cause - not a few marines - but the entire chapter. 

Taking all of these characteristics and facts together, the silver skulls bear striking similarities to that of the pre-heresy word bearers. Why the word bearers? Well ...

A) Word bearers follow the word of their dark apostles without question, just like the silver skulls follow their prognosticators.

B) Word bearers feel that they are the favoured of chaos - over and above the other legions. Silver skulls feel that they are first among equals, over and above all other chapters. And both groups feel that they have a special connection to their deity or deities. 

C) Word bearers have the book of lorgar which is considered to be sacred akin to the way the orthodoxy is.

D) Word bearers are also deeply enmeshed with ritualized behaviours, use highly stylized motifs, and are obsessed about maintaining genetic purity just as the silver skulls are

E) Both word bearers and silver skulls exhibit extreme pride and tendency for doggedness in battle, unwilling to surrender or give ground.

Lastly, it might be a coincidence but the silver skulls motto is that of a stylized skull - aka - like a chaplain or apostle. Perhaps a chaplains survived a purge and was able to found a new chapter?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I was always under the impression that the Silver Skulls were of Ultramarine stock, in fact i'm sure i've read that they are. 

In any case i doubt they're Word bearer loyalists for the simple fact i don't think there would have been any. Given the legions level of devotion and obedience to Lorgar- something that was emphasised quite a few times and the purging of all Terran born Astartes i don't think there would have been any loyalists to splinter off. Even if they were i doubt they'd have the chance to. between the lodges, chaplains and the legions general attitude any divergences in behaviour or beliefs would be quickly noticed.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Silver_Skulls

2nd Founding Chapter based on Ultramarines.

Sorry, but it's where they come from. They're from the Ultrasmurfs, no matter how you look at it.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Actually, its not that cut and dry.

For one thing, the lexicanum entry is incorrect in that whomever referenced the source material wrongly associated the described attributes for the fortress monastery to that of the silver skulls chapter. 

For the benefit of those who don't have access to the hammer and bolter short story cause and effect, the text is as follows....

"For countless centuries, the Silver Skulls had recruited from a number of worlds but all their warriors had been trained here on the far-flung world of Varsavia. A visiting dignitary from Terra many centuries ago had acknowledged that the Monastery’s design would have impressed the Primarch Rogal Dorn himself. It was highly defensible and nigh on impenetrable to the outside world". - page 3

As you can see the description pertains to the fortress monastery, and how its impregnability would impress the master builder of defences, Dorn. It does not mean that the dorn was their primarch.

I should also point out that the silver skulls do not know who their primarch is as evidenced in the Gildar Rift ....

" Unlike many other Chapters, the Silver Skulls remain ignorant as to the truth of their genetic heritage. The name of their primogenitor, the Primarch whose genetic material first formed their Chapter, was unknown to them, as the records had been lost. However, some fragmentary references in Imperial records indicated that the Silver Skulls had been one of the more famed Chapters to have been formed during the Second Founding after the end of the Horus Heresy. Several centuries previously, the Chapter's Apothecaries had performed countless genetic tests on the Silver Skulls' gene-seed which suggested that the Silver Skulls were most likely a Successor Chapter of the Ultramarines and the great Primarch Roboute Guilliman who had reformed the Imperium after the Emperor's interment within the Golden Throne. But the truth of the Chapter's heritage mattered little to the Silver Skulls. " - page 29.

This is highly suspicious - as chapters revere their primarch and would zealously guard this information. Information like this just doesn't go missing accidentally. Secondly, one would certainly wonder how these tests were conducted, as it would be unlikely that the ultramarines would hand over any zygotes or glands for testing. And since its clearly stated in deliverance lost that every space marine would carry tell - tale signs of who exactly their primogenitor primarch was, the fact that the apothecaries are only somewhat certain who their primarch was raises eyebrows. 

As we all know, recent evidence of chapters with possible traitor legion gene seed origins are becoming more apparent - such as the blood ravens and maybe even the soul drinkers. Also we know that the space marines from traitor legions were recruited post heresy - such as the world eaters, death guard, and luna wolves.

Lastly, I would like to point out that the organizational structure of the silver skulls, like the blood raven chapter, would make keeping such a destructive secret very easy. 

"No matter how contrary or controversial, the decision of a Prognosticator was never questioned – except by another, more senior member of the Prognosticatum. Their word was never disputed. Their orders were obeyed without hesitation"- Cause and effect page 2. 

Meaning a high level prognosticator could very easily hide who their primarch really was, and creates a plausible reason as to why the Silver skulls guard their gene seed in a way that is extraordinary.


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## Hrolleif (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm of the opinion they are indeed part of Guilliman's brood. If they are anything other than what they claim to be I highly doubt it would be Word Bearers.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Much evidence suggest its Ultramarines, which is a fact we have to live with. However, in their lifestyle, I would think White Scars would have been a much better parenting Legion for them to have come from. But thats just a personal opinion.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I actually used to think they were one of Dorn's brood - but that may just be old fluff I'm thinking of that has been retconned.

From what you describe, certainly there's a possibility of them being of Word Bearer stock BUT the issue with that was that they would never have created a 2nd Founding Chapter that way. The 2nd Founding was made by splitting the original Legions, not by creating from scratch as with subsequent Foundings. More likely then they were from among the Ultramarines that remained of the II or XI Legions, which would explain the uncertainty.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The author of the recent Silver Skulls novel stated their geneseed is unknown, it's speculated that it's ultramarines after a check long ago but it's not certain. I speculated they could be the White Skulls because of the similarities.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

@TheKingElessar, there is no proof whatsoever that the Ultramarines absorbed any if the missing legions and it is very very unlikely. The only time it's ever been mentioned is from a squad of Word Bearers talking rumours. The high number of Ultramarines is easily explained by their vast empire of 500 worlds and Guillimans legendary organisational skills. 

As for the Silver Skulls, again I highly doubt they are from a traitor legion, especially not the Word Bearers whose loyalty to Lorgar was in their very genetics. Also not all chapters universally revere their primarch and heritage so that's hardly damning proof either.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't recall the passage in First Heretic that discussed it, but it seemed fairly cast-iron?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Whilst it is an interesting theory, much of the evidence you cited _mbatemplar_ is tenuous at best. You could draw similar comparisons between almost all of the Adeptus Astartes, and indeed even the wider Imperium. You could describe almost all Chapters as zealous, superstitious, and as possessing ritualistic tendencies. There are numerous Chapters that are also unaware of their heritage (if indeed that applies to the _Silver Skulls_ since _Gildar Rift_). What I am getting at is that the evidence you cited by no means relates the Silver Skulls to the Word Bearers more so than most other Astartes Chapters. 



TheKingElessar said:


> I don't recall the passage in First Heretic that discussed it, but it seemed fairly cast-iron?


Aaron talked about it here on Heresy a while ago, in response to several people thinking it concrete fact that the XIII absorbed the remnants of the II and XI. Essentially he said that it was only vague rumours being discussed by a few XVII Astartes, nothing more. As _AoB_ said, it is highly unlikely to be true. The sheer size of the XIII can be justified in much simpler terms.



Angel of Blood said:


> whose loyalty to Lorgar was in their very genetics. Also not all chapters universally revere their primarch and heritage so that's hardly damning proof either.


There certainly seems to have been a tendency for an element of the XVII's loyalty/faith/dogma to have been genetic. But take into account that there are precedents for rebellions and schisms within the XVII - the Second Purge of the Brotherhood and the Sanctified warband as prominent examples.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

With the Word Bearers its more that they get overly overenthusiastic with an idea or something and focus their entirety to praising it or fulfilling it. First the Emperor, then he slapped it out of them, and then the Chaos gods stepped in and took over that roll. That's how I see it at least.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Look at The Mortifactors, Ultramarine descendants. Being of smurf ancestry is no guarantee for an orderly bloodline.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

It's very true that many of the connections that I'm suggesting are tenuous, but this is probably more to do with the fact that we know very little of the silver skulls themselves. 

I guess what I was getting at was that here was a chapter with an unknown primarch, whose organizational structure bore a striking resemblance to pre-heresy word bearers (ie. unquestionable authority of specialist branch of the chapter, repeated references to a religious authority, extreme pride, etc). Furthermore, it had numerous oddities about it - even if one moves beyond their gene seed issue - one weird fact is that chaplains are exceptionally rare within the chapter. Having reread the word bearers novels just before reading the gildar rift, I definitely got a case of deja vu.

Not to get sidetracked, but as to the issue of the ultramarines absorbing the two censored legions, this can almost certainly be ruled out. Deliverance Lost makes it clear that the astartes in each legion had very different genetic makeup. If ultramarines had indeed taken on members of other legions, this would severely distort their genetic makeup. Not only would it complicate the process of future zygote implantation (both process wise but also in maintaining future genetic purity), but it would also make one wonder as to the loyalty of those space marines that had been adopted.

On a somewhat related note, we do know that there were loyalist word bearers post the drop site massacre as detailed in deliverance lost.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

mbatemplar said:


> one weird fact is that chaplains are exceptionally rare within the chapter. Having reread the word bearers novels just before reading the gildar rift, I definitely got a case of deja vu.


Silver Skulls have Prognosticators, which are Chaplain-Librarians. Of the two, the Librarians would be the limiting factor. So their Chaplain-Librarians would be rather rare as well. This could be solved by having more Librarians, but not very many Chapters have a lot of Librarians (of course, if the Chapter has a lot of Librarians, then that too is an issue).


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

mbatemplar said:


> It's very true that many of the connections that I'm suggesting are tenuous, but this is probably more to do with the fact that we know very little of the silver skulls themselves.
> 
> I guess what I was getting at was that here was a chapter with an unknown primarch, whose organizational structure bore a striking resemblance to pre-heresy word bearers (ie. unquestionable authority of specialist branch of the chapter, repeated references to a religious authority, extreme pride, etc). Furthermore, it had numerous oddities about it - even if one moves beyond their gene seed issue - one weird fact is that chaplains are exceptionally rare within the chapter. Having reread the word bearers novels just before reading the gildar rift, I definitely got a case of deja vu.
> 
> ...


One thing to consider, IF the Ultramarines had absorbed the lost legions. Who is not to say that the lost got placed wholly in chapters of their own within the Ultramarines Legion, continuing their own bloodline and over the millenia thinking they were ultramarines, but actually continuing the bloodline of their own lost and forgotten primarch?

It could in a way explain why some ultramarine successors is so radically divergent from their sire. - Look at the Mortifactors again.


Maybe Guiliman felt guilt over what happened to his lost brothers and felt it helped a bit by letting their blood live within his legion, even if he could never publically reveal that they were not of his bloodline. But taking pains to never mingle the divergent bloodlines with true ultramarine stock. Resulting in a line of codex chapters and a bunch of strayers that was the dirty secret of the ultramarines.

With the planned sundering of the legions after the Horus Heresy, being the perfect opportunity to get rid of the dirty laundry and letting them set out on their own to stake their own future. Most of the strays adhering to that they had to act like they came from ultramarine stock if they wanted to survive, but other, more rebellious ones, choosing to 'forget' what lineage they had descended from. Too painfully aware that should the news of their sire come out, it would mean their extermination.


Furthermore, geneseed mixing does happen. For example look at the infamous Iron Warriors Warsmith Honsou, constantly belittled by his peers for being a halfbreed. Some of his genestock comming from captured imperial fists geneseed.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Actually the prognasticum has both prognasticators and chaplains. The chaps stick to just the spiritual care while the progs serve a dual role of both librarian and chaplain- which isn't surprising given their prominance and the shortage of chaplains in the chapter. 

We know that chaplains are rare due to this line.....

"Like their more numerous psychic Prognosticators, the Chapter’s Chaplains were deeply superstitious....." (Gildar rift page 216 - 217)

which combined with an earlier snippet saying that progs themselves are very rare, would suggest that the entire chapter might have just a handful, if that, of chaplains

As to possibility of ultramarines having internal chapters of the lost legions, I wonder how that would be possible. You would need to keep the recovered progs separate from each other, with apothecaries knowledgeable in the implantation of said progs and all of their variations. The word bearers do have chapters, but the gene seed doesn't vary between the chapters. Then comes the issue of how these marines from the lost legion would feel knowing that their primarchs were cast out of the imperium? Furthermore, the other primarchs would know that the other legions weren't wiped out, and the primarchs currently seem genuinely grieved when contemplating the fate of their brothers.

As to the mixing of the gene seed - honsou is because the traitor legions are desperate, although a better case of it could be grey knights who are second founding with an unknown gene seed. If they are indeed based off the space marines from the inquisition - then this would mean that they would even have traitor dna within them


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> One thing to consider, IF the Ultramarines had absorbed the lost legions. Who is not to say that the lost got placed wholly in chapters of their own within the Ultramarines Legion, continuing their own bloodline and over the millenia thinking they were ultramarines, but actually continuing the bloodline of their own lost and forgotten primarch?
> 
> It could in a way explain why some ultramarine successors is so radically divergent from their sire. - Look at the Mortifactors again.


That would go along the same lines as the ...


... Soul Drinkers, who thought they were of Imperial Fist Gene-seed... but ended up being of unknown lineage.


Though it still raises the question of "just what the hell is the Mechanicum doing when they're testing Gene-seed?!?" Do they just receive it, take the Chapter's word for it that it belongs to a certain lineage, and simply test for mutation?

Cheers,
P.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> That would go along the same lines as the ...
> 
> 
> ... Soul Drinkers, who thought they were of Imperial Fist Gene-seed... but ended up being of unknown lineage.
> ...


Dont forget that in the 41th millenium, science has died, becomming a ritualized effort, just going through the rote taught rituals passed down by the ancestors, without knowing what it means. And if its an ancient and time honored legion like the Ultramarines, then noone would even dare to question them. Just taking their word at face value, and then as the millenia have passed, perhaps even the mechanicus takes it for granted that all the seed of all ultramarine descendants actually belong to the parent legion.


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

They aren't descendants of a traitor legion.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Oh, and I suppose we should just take *your* word for Pyro?!? :grin:

Brother Lucian,

Fair points, but the fact remains that the Imperium/Mechanicum can - and does - identify what the pedigree/Legion of a Geneseed is. We've seen mention of this both in novels and in material like Index Astartes articles, Imperial Armour books, etc.


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Oh, and I suppose we should just take *your* word for Pyro?!? :grin:


I wouldn't if I were you. :wink:


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

> Fair points, but the fact remains that the Imperium/Mechanicum can - and does - identify what the pedigree/Legion of a Geneseed is. We've seen mention of this both in novels and in material like Index Astartes articles, Imperial Armour books, etc.


I don't think anyone doubts that the mechanicum does test the gene seed, but it clearly doesn't do it all the time.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be having surprises like the blood ravens and soul drinkers popping up....


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

What's so suprising about the Soul Drinkers? They're Imperial Fist descendants and the mutations they suffered came from the time when they were being manipulated by Tzeentch. And by that point the chances of them providing a tithe of geneseed for the AdMech to check was unlikely to say the least.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

I guess you haven't heard yet - but the Soul Drinkers are not descended from Rogal Dorn.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't think that their behavior would indicate a link to the Word Bearers. First off, as was stated, there was no second founding of that legion for obvious reason. And, I doubt anyone, especially Guilliman, would have attempted to carry on a traitor's legacy. He was never very fond of Lorgar plus it would have been apparent that his gene-seed was flawed. If the best amongst the legion could be swayed by Chaos then the minds of his lesser progeny would be even more susceptible. Afterall, the Word Bearers helped to bring about the demise of the Emperor...there is no one that is going to use their cancerous gene-seed.

I believe it is more likely that their behavior is just a natural development. Who wouldn't develop a reverence for those amongst them that could predict the future and outcome of their actions? Whoever the first Skulls were may have decided that the use of prognosticators as a means of strategy was important to ensure victory. From there it could have grown over the next 10,000 years to the near religious state that it is now.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

mbatemplar said:


> I guess you haven't heard yet - but the Soul Drinkers are not descended from Rogal Dorn.


So glad to hear that!


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