# Dark Angels vs. Codex Marines



## DeusMortemEst (Dec 14, 2007)

Ok, here are a few examples:

*Codex Rhino*

-50 pts. 
-Has no upgrades whatsoever.

*Dark Angels Rhino:*

-35 pts
- Are eqipped with a storm bolter, smoke launchers and searchlight.

They both have the same armour.

*Codex Predator* (with autocannon and no side sponsons) - 100 pts.
*
Dark Angels Predator* (ditto, as well as smoke launcers and a searchlight) - 70pts.

The codex veterans originally costs 18 pts per model, but only has one attack and leadership 8. They can, however, take terminator honours for 10 pts per model. The Dark Angels veterans cost 20 pts each, but have the terminator honours benefit included.

That means, they are 8 points cheaper than regular veterans, but just as good. Moreover, a Dark Angels veteran squad can be equipped with a maximum 3 power weapons/power fists/plasma pistols/storm bolters/combi volters/ in ADDITION to a special weapon and heavy weapon, while the codex veterans can have a maximum of 3 (because the sergeant is given it from the armoury) EXCLUDING this.

Oh, and they can take terminators as a troop choice if they just include a special chahacter.

Is it just me, or is this _slightly _ unfair?

And aslo, has this uber-whateverit'scalled happened to other chapters who've gotten codexes on their own?

Great thing that I'm using the Dark Angels army list! Come over to the dark side, anyone?


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## Magin Chao (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess its made up in troop restrictions, like scouts.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, if you;re going to bring up Death Wing, you should compare new DA to OLD DA...where you didn't have to take a special character, and you could have a pair of assault cannons in each squad, etc.

All in all, new-wave Marines (DA, BA, CSM) have more gear (Don't forget your free krak and frag grenades), generally lower costs, but also fewer options, and higher prices on popular choices.

old marines: 15 point powerfists, 5 point plaspistols, super-cheap and insanely effective 6-man las/plas squads, cheap AC tornado speeders.

Son;t get me wrong, I like (most) of the changes, and the direction that things are headed, but it;s not a one-sided orgasm of awesome.

The new wave are more balanced, take it for what it;s worth. Things that sucked are better, things that were awesome now suck just a little bit more.


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## DeusMortemEst (Dec 14, 2007)

Galahad said:


> Well, if you;re going to bring up Death Wing, you should compare new DA to OLD DA...where you didn't have to take a special character, and you could have a pair of assault cannons in each squad, etc.
> 
> All in all, new-wave Marines (DA, BA, CSM) have more gear (Don't forget your free krak and frag grenades), generally lower costs, but also fewer options, and higher prices on popular choices.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I guess. But a DA force fighting aganist a codex force would probably have a big andvantage, right?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Really depends upon the construction of both armies.

It's a lot harder to 'twink' the new style marines, meanwhile the old Codex Space Marines remains an unbridled cheesefest, waiting to be unleashed.

Proper abuse of the traits system, combined with abusive composition choices (small las/plas squads, lots of cheap AC speeders), and good old-fashioned drop-pod spam can make up for free smoke launchers PDQ

New DA is a good list, and if properly maximized, can put up a really good fight (though I think new Chaos marines or BA are stronger), but it's easier to come up with a powerful C:SM list. So it takes a good player to make a powerful DA list, it doesn;t take much talent to come up with an equally powerful C:SM list.

But just you wait...they;ll come around and get their codex changed soon enough.


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## Asmodai (Dec 30, 2006)

I agree with Galahad.

Dark Angels have a number of advantages over regular Codex Marines - but mainly in units that aren't fielded that often (who fields Veterans with Terminator Honours, seriously?). The reduction in the points of Predator Annihilators and Rhinos is fair considering that they're rarely seen units and the new points value is more in keeping with their actual effectiveness on the field.

Regular Marines have 6 man Las/Plas Squads, 2 weapons in Terminator Squads, cheaper Predator Annihilators, cheaper Landspeeder Tornados, cheaper Dreadnoughts. If you add Traits in you get Furious Charge, 6 Devastator Squads, 6x Dreadnought 3x Landspeeder Assault Cannon spam, etc., etc.

A well-built SAFH Space Marine list is one of the most powerful lists in the game. Dark Angels really don't have a cookie-cutter tournament build. 

What the Dark Angels Codex excels in is _internal balance_. In the Space Marine list there are a lot of no-brainer choices and a lot of stuff that competitive players wouldn't touch if they were drunk. In Dark Angels the choice between units is less obvious. The Annihilator pattern Predator is a lot pricier than the Destructor, but it has Lascannons that are hard to find elsewhere. At 100 points, the Landspeeder Tornado isn't clearly superior to a Bike Squadron. Dark Angels isn't perfect, but it's likely GW's best balanced Codex yet in terms of being internally consistent.

I've also found that with Combat Squads, more balanced force composition, stricter adherence to the fluff of Codex Astartes, and the like that I've had more fun with my Dark Angels in the past year than I ever did in the decade preceding whether using the old DA book or just Codex: Space Marines. It's not because they're more powerful, but rather they're much more characterful.

So don't despair. If you lose to Dark Angels when you play Codex Marines, it's not because they have a more powerful army list. The latest rumours are that Space Wolves in the pipeline for late 2008 or early-mid 2009, and if 5th edition comes out, surely a new Space Marine Codex would come along with it. Personally, I think that once those books are updated to the Dark Angel's format 40K will be a much more enjoyable game.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Overall the Darkangels are cheaper than dex marines. However, the upgrades like extra armour, twin-linked Lascannon and so on are a lot more and eventuall add up to be the same or a little bit more than Dex


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

Galahad's got it pegged. plus i love the phrase 'one sided orgasm'.


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## Jadow (Nov 23, 2007)

If your a Dark Angels player you should know how all of this balances out, no more min/max, or squads in sizes different than 5 and 10, basically the min/max tacs and 8 man devs, movement of scouts to the elites section (no clue why, they are just learning to be marines and they are all of a sudden elite! um no, not fluffy at all) no more duel heavy weapons in DW termie squads, DW aren't able to make squads bigger than 5 w/o IC and that makes our Crusader cry when its not filled with DW CC goodiness to max, mandatory HQ for DW as troops, loss of our beloved Land Raiders and attached dedicated transport ... the new Codex definitely gives and takes to a whole new type of army compared to the DA of old. Well the DW side of things anyways.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Ravenwing kicks ass, but why don't they have skilled rider. Aren't they supposed to be the most skilled riders in the Imperium?


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## DeusMortemEst (Dec 14, 2007)

Yeah, ok, I got it. 

Thanks a lot, guys! :victory:


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

the way I see it is that one simply can't remake all the space marine codices all at once (similar to walking into Mordor its suicide) it would take too many man hours, with too little sales inbetween, and when the public got them all, there would be mass confusion and craziness about what to buy and not buy, people would get frustrated at the newly required models not showing up shortly after, and an uprising would follow leading to an age of chaos and the fall of humanity.

all the dexes will get this treatment, personally I am surprised that vanilla marines werent first.

although, it would be nice if they faq'd some of these features to all lists for the time being. like cheaper rhinos for example.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

All I can say is this...

I really like the DA codex.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Don't have much to add on the original topic, but I must say that it's really nice to see so much optimisim in regards to the Dark Angels Codex. On every other board it seems like people are complaining about how badly it sucks.


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## darkane (Nov 14, 2007)

oh sure, lets make the army with the ridiculous armor save and widest variety of weapons cheaper! hooray! what the heck do the space marines think they are? Shamans? :laugh::wink:


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> Ravenwing kicks ass, but why don't they have skilled rider. Aren't they supposed to be the most skilled riders in the Imperium?


Just like BA's are suppose to be crazy and charge often, yet no Furious charge exect on Death company :shok:


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

RPD_Tyrant said:


> Just like BA's are suppose to be crazy and charge often, yet no Furious charge exect on Death company :shok:


especially when you take into consideration the harlequins, which have more special skills than most armies


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

Engelus said:


> especially when you take into consideration the harlequins, which have more special skills than most armies


I forgot about that :shok:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

In regards to the optimism, a lot of it comes from perspective.
Out of the blue your codex gets a bunch of weird, arbitrary changes and it's scary and confusing. But now BA and CSM codices come out and you can see it's part of a new wave, meant to be viewed within its own context. 

As to Scouts being moved to Elites...

Remember that this is a game. Some units are put into certain categories for game mechanics purposes.

Scouts have special weapons and equipment not available to anyone else. They have special skills and capabilities no other unit possesses, and there are less of them than tactical marines. Special skills, special weapons, less availability...that doesn;t sound like something you should be abl;e to make a whole army out of. That;s a special squad.

Well, we don;t have a "Special Squad" FoC slot, we have Elites.

Coinsider Eldar Dire Avengers.
Dire Avengers are aspect warriors, with every bit as much training and respect and power as any of the other aspect temples. But even though in reality they would be considered elite, they are filed under troops because their abilities are unspecialized and there are lots of them available.

Likewise, Dark Reapers are Aspect Warriors, elite, specially trained units with the same level of training and status as other Aspect Warriors, but their heavy weaponry makes them a HS unit for game mechanics reasons. 

Scouts were moved to Elites for good reason.
Yes, it takes away some Troops options, but it puts a unit of specially equipped, specially trained, specially armed, narrowly focused troopers into the same category as other mission specialists. Troops are meant to be numerous and generalized. Scouts are neither.

I can understand why it's a cause for complaint. SM are lacking in troops options and overfull on elites, meanwhile Scouts were a low-cost, tactically useful way to buy out your mandatory 2 troops slots. Who wouldn't rather have an infiltrating assault squad, or a Missile Launcher that can start the game with a shot into someone''s side armor than a handful of expensive guys in a flimsy transport?

But if you think of Elites as "Mission Specialists" rather than "Hardened Veterans" then scouts are a perfect fit for the category.

They certainly shouldn't be troops. You want un-fluffy, a Scout Army is un-fluffy. Who would make untested novices the backbone for their entire force? Who fields trainees without regular troopers around to advise and support them?

Scouts as troops was awesome, but didn't make a lot of sense if you really thought about it (I always felt Scouts should have been Fast Attack, myself...everyone else's scouts are).

Scouts as Elites sucks, but really does make sense if you stop to think about it. In almost every other army, the only infiltrating units are Elites. Stealth Suits, Striking Scorpions, Chosen, Kommandos, Storm Troopers and Hardened Vets, etc, etc.

There are a couple exceptions, but by and large, your infiltrating group of badass ninja motherfuckers is almost always an Elites choice


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## Asmodai (Dec 30, 2006)

Scouts make sense for a scouting mission. A reasonable opponent probably wouldn't object to you fielding them as troops in a Combat Patrol mission. There's also Apocalypse for those people really wanting to field a million and one scouts.

The change really doesn't effect me since I rarely fill my Elites slots (and keep in mind that Techmarines don't take up a slot for Dark Angels), and I always field two or more Tactical Squads anyway.

@Katie: You're right. One of the reason why I'm spending more time on here than other forums lately is that it does seem to have a more positive tone.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Yeah but scouts are technically "less" trained than full fledged Marines. Just cause they have infiltrate doesnt make them all special. They should still be a troops choice to give people diversity of troop options. Regular marines are to cut and dry. Unless you use the trait system they have only have 2 things to consider.. your special weapon and your heavy weapon. Thats it. You cant choose a HtH troop option with scouts as Elites.

I would say take away infiltrate and give them the option to buy it back and if they buy it they become Elites. This way you still have a flexible troop option. Having only one Troop option really sucks. A true codex should have at least 2 troop options minimum (with exception to Necrons  ). Seriously take a look at Chaos. They have 9 options! Space Marines used to be on equal footing with them for the most part in HtH... now they have to avoid HtH with them like the plague.. why? Because 8 out of 9 chaos marine options are a minimum of 2 to 1 better than a regular marine in HtH now. That last remaining option can blow space marines away before they even get into shooting range.

5th Edition Space Marines as a minimum in the next Codex needs the same wargear standard that Chaos has to remain a truly competive list (ergo free BP,CCW,Bolter,Frag, and Krak for every marine). I dont care if they up the cost by 1-2 pts for ATSKNF because that does rock, but seriously the only thing we can beat in HtH anymore is Guard and Tau.


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## Asmodai (Dec 30, 2006)

Bishop120 said:


> Yeah but scouts are technically "less" trained than full fledged Marines. Just cause they have infiltrate doesnt make them all special. They should still be a troops choice to give people diversity of troop options. Regular marines are to cut and dry. Unless you use the trait system they have only have 2 things to consider.. your special weapon and your heavy weapon. Thats it. You cant choose a HtH troop option with scouts as Elites.
> 
> I would say take away infiltrate and give them the option to buy it back and if they buy it they become Elites. This way you still have a flexible troop option. Having only one Troop option really sucks. A true codex should have at least 2 troop options minimum (with exception to Necrons  ). Seriously take a look at Chaos. They have 9 options! Space Marines used to be on equal footing with them for the most part in HtH... now they have to avoid HtH with them like the plague.. why? Because 8 out of 9 chaos marine options are a minimum of 2 to 1 better than a regular marine in HtH now. That last remaining option can blow space marines away before they even get into shooting range.
> 
> 5th Edition Space Marines as a minimum in the next Codex needs the same wargear standard that Chaos has to remain a truly competive list (ergo free BP,CCW,Bolter,Frag, and Krak for every marine). I dont care if they up the cost by 1-2 pts for ATSKNF because that does rock, but seriously the only thing we can beat in HtH anymore is Guard and Tau.


I think you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole, and I disagree with most of your points. As Galahad pointed out, the shift to Elites is a mechanics issue, not a fluff issue. The 'less trained' argument fails on that basis.

Dark Angels don't need to worry about traits, but you still need to consider weapon load-out, what to put on the Veteran Sergeant (if anything), whether to take a Rhino or a Razorback and what to put on those. That's enough for me. I'm much more interested in the tactical options regarding what to do with the squad in the game rather than crunching out the math to determine the most efficient combination of equipment.

A good example of that is Combat Squads. You need to decide whether to use the rule, what to put in each squad, and how to deploy them. It isn't always easy. I can deploy my Devastators in separate squads to maximize firing options, but that lessens survivability. If I put them in a big group I have less worries about morale or losing heavy weapons, but I lose the option to split my fire. The same sort of calculations apply to Tactical and Assault Squads too.

Simplified army selection doesn't mean the game is simpler. In my experience, it's the opposite. Once the optimization and number-crunching is less influential, the tactical decisions on the field begin to become more important. I also really don't have any objection to having Tactical Squads be the bread and butter of the Marine list. That's consistent with how they fight in the fluff and it makes sense in game.

I also disagree with your assessment that a Chaos Marine is 2-1 better in close combat than a regular Marine. Simply counting the base attacks statistic is not an accurate measure of close combat ability. In most Marine armies the Veteran Sergeant with a Power Weapon/Fist will account for more than 50% of the squad's damage on the enemy. The base attacks mostly just bounce off. (50% hit, 25% wound, 8.33% kill - an entire 10 man Chaos Squad's extra attacks account for only one single extra dead Marine.)

Troops also get extra attacks for charging, which evens things out further. You're also discounting the value of 'And They Shall Know No Fear' a bit in my opinion. It's an incredible advantage to never have your troops run in combat. If the Chaos side loses a round there's a 50/50 chance they'll be wiped out utterly.

The armies aren't identical and Chaos has some advantages. Marines and the variant Chapters have advantages too (Assault Cannons, a different set of tanks, Scouts, Techmarines, Chaplains, and a whole bunch of other unique units). I think it's fine that Chaos is good at their thing. Dark Angels are good at their thing too and it adds up to a competitive game.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

> I also disagree with your assessment that a Chaos Marine is 2-1 better in close combat than a regular Marine. Simply counting the base attacks statistic is not an accurate measure of close combat ability. In most Marine armies the Veteran Sergeant with a Power Weapon/Fist will account for more than 50% of the squad's damage on the enemy. The base attacks mostly just bounce off. (50% hit, 25% wound, 8.33% kill - an entire 10 man Chaos Squad's extra attacks account for only one single extra dead Marine.)
> 
> Troops also get extra attacks for charging, which evens things out further. You're also discounting the value of 'And They Shall Know No Fear' a bit in my opinion. It's an incredible advantage to never have your troops run in combat. If the Chaos side loses a round there's a 50/50 chance they'll be wiped out utterly.


ATSKNF keeps Space Marines from being wiped if they run and thats something they definately need now. 2 of the 9 options Chaos have for Troops only have the +1 attack. 6 of the remaining have other advantages AS WELL. Khorne have extra attacks, Slannesh have Initiative, Nurgle Toughness/FNP. Then they have the cheaper Icon option which gives this to the squads cheaper than "real thing" so to speak. Then they can come in upto 20 man squads. Your extremely lucky to be able to beat a Chaos marine squad in HtH with a regular SM. Sure you can charge them so that you possibly equal their attacks for the first round but as you say thats an average of 1-2 marines killed. You have to rely on the Sgts to do the killing. And guess what.. they have Sgts to. 

So lets say you do some how beat them in HtH combat and you force a LD check on them. Guess what... 4 out of there 9 options are fearless so thats means no wiping them out. Another one of their troop options gets to re-roll their leadership IF they fail their base 9-10 w/ AC Leadership. 

There is nothing broken game mechanics wise about having Scouts as troops. Infiltrate makes them broken? Tau & Guard both have it in their Troops. Eldar and Tyranids have Fleet for their troops. The new orks will have Furious Charge. Tyrannids are about 5 times more customizable in their troop options. Eldar Pathfinder Rangers belong as Elites far more than our scouts.

A diverse troops option gives your army diversity. Look at Necrons.. you know that at a minimum your going to be facing 10-20 Necron warriors. If they condemn Space Marine Scouts to Elites then that means every Space Marine army will have 10-20 marines which means you can easily build your army to beat every marine army cause you will know what they will be bringing. A predictable army is a beatable army.

Now dont get me wrong. Im not saying Chaos are an unbeatable army. But I am saying that their troop options are superior to ours. A troop heavy Chaos army will have a significant advantage over ANY Space Marine army. All they have to do is assualt and the game will be theirs. SM have to take traits to equal them in HtH which if you ask me is not right. As I said before ATSKNF is great and I'd be willing to pay extra for it if our marines came equipped the same as theirs.

The rest of their army more than makes up for our Assualt Cannons, Land Speeders, Whirlwinds. Their Land Raiders are cheaper by default which means easier to take. Their Terminators are cheaper AND dont suffer the problem of PF initiative. Next Chaos person who complains about not getting Vet skills im going to kick in the nuts.. we have 2 Vet skills to choose from.. you have 4 Icons you can take which give far better advantages than our Vet skills and you can mix and match your Termies for CC and shooting. We have 2 seperate squads we have to take so we have to choose what we want.. shooting or CC. No assualt cannon ?? who cares you have reaper Autocannons which work better at light armor hunting AND has twice the range. Who needs a whirlwind when you have a Defiler which has better armor, stronger weapons, more weapons, and works in HtH. Landspeeders.. who needs an armor 10 vehicle which can fall to Bolter fire or can be torn up in HtH by Possessed. Chaos are not lacking in any department so the arguement that they can have better troops cause the rest of our army is better is sadly lacking. Anyways I digress.. I wanted to keep this confined to the troop arguement.

Having diverse troop options keeps your army diverse and colorfull. It keeps you from seeing the same armies over and over and over again. I keep hearing/seeing the same 5 or 10 man Combat Squads in every marine players army. On the one hand you argue against the "numbers crunching - optimisation" but on the other hand you argue about keeping game mechanics fair. Dont you realise that its the same arguement??? This is why we have codexes to choose armies. If you want it about just your in the field choices then ask GW to just take away the codex and say "Hey everyone just plays with this 1500pt army we built for you". That game would be no fun. Diversity means you have to design your army to be able to take all comers. If you know what your fighting you know how to build your army to beat it and then again its not really that fun.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Bish, nobody said scouts as troops were broken (though they are a cheap and powerful choice, and were often exploited as such), and nobody is arguing that scouts have more training than normal marines.

What is being argued is that from a game mechanics standpoint, they ARE a much, much, more logical choice as elites than as troops. 

Think about this hypothetical unit for a moment and tell me if they should be elite.

They're not a part of the rank and file of the standard company. Instead they are called in from their own special company to join the battle company as an attached unit.

They are almost never fielded en-masse for fluff reasons. Instead usually only a couple squads go out with a battle company to fulfil a special role that no other unit in the army can handle.

They are given special weapons and equipment that nobody else has access to. They are given options on whether they want to be armed for CC or ranged. They wear non-standard armor that nobody else in the army wears. They have access to abilities or skills that are possessed by nobody else, save the most hardened of veterans.

Does that sound like an elite unit, or a rank and file trooper?
Hell, that description describes either Scouts or Terminators equally well.

Mechanics wise, Scouts fill a specific role within the army, a role filled by similar units in other armies. All of those units are considered elites in their own lists.

Fluff wise, Scouts are NOT troops. They are not permanently attached to any battle company, instead there are (in theory) only a handful of squads to be shared amongst the whole army as a special company of their own. They are almost never fielded in large numbers. If you want to talk about fluff as applied to purely game-mechanic things such as FOC slots, then there;s no way to argue scouts as troops from a fluff standpoint.

So they;re not troops, certainly not HQ or Heavy, they can only then be Fast Attack or Elites.

Usually FA choices have to, well, move fast. Either a mandatory transport, jump packs, bike,s beasts, or a scout move. Infiltration is almost never a characteristic of FA units. Almost all infiltrators are Elites units.

Mechaincally, the setup of the squad makes more *sense* as an Elites choice.

The names of the categories are arbitrary. Just because something is classed as an Elite doesn't mean it is a Veteran unit. Are Lichtors somehow more highly trained and experienced than Gaunts? Hell, there could be a few lucky Gaunts older than them, with more 'experience', but their role is that of troops.

Aspect Warriors are all considered the elite of the Eldar fighting corps, but certain Aspect Warriors like Reapers, Hawks, Avengers, etc belong to FOC slots other than Elites. 
Are Swooping Hawks or Dire avengers all less skilled and experienced than Striking Scorpions?

They're still highly trained, but mechanics wise, their abilities and equipment lend them to the role of heavy support or fast attack.

Likewise, think about Space Wolf Longfangs...these are the oldest, most experienced members of the entire army. Are they elites? No, they carry a crap-ton of weapons, so they are HS.

Fluff has nothing to do with your FOC slot. FOC allocation is, and should be, all about unit capabilities.

Should SM have more troops options? Yeah, probably. Everyone else seems to have at least two choices. But Scouts (at least as they are presented now in both rules and fluff) should not be it.

Instead, I would suggest removing the 'remove jump packs' option from Assault Squads and making a second troops choice, essentially, packless assault squad, with transport options. Perhaps with two special weapons options and no heavy (Say, Plaspistol, Flamer or Meltagun)

This would give you a second troops option, allow for you to field a more assault-oriented list while not overloading you with infiltrating powerfists and avoiding non-fluffy scout armies. (Perhaps allow a scout army trait of some sort)

But at this point it's all houserule and speculation.

But as it stands, scouts don;t make sense as troops. Like it or not, they fit better as elites.

Also worth noting, all of the army lists that have scouts as elites, also have other troops options available (DA can take a really awesome special character and have ravenwing squads and/or terminators as troops, and BA can have assault squads as troops)

So, at this point the argument that it thins out the troops options too much falls flat as well.

We shall have to see what they decide to do with new Codex Marines. PErhaps they;ll get a second troops choice of some sort.


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## Asmodai (Dec 30, 2006)

Bishop120 said:


> ATSKNF keeps Space Marines from being wiped if they run and thats something they definately need now. 2 of the 9 options Chaos have for Troops only have the +1 attack. 6 of the remaining have other advantages AS WELL. Khorne have extra attacks, Slannesh have Initiative, Nurgle Toughness/FNP. Then they have the cheaper Icon option which gives this to the squads cheaper than "real thing" so to speak. Then they can come in upto 20 man squads. Your extremely lucky to be able to beat a Chaos marine squad in HtH with a regular SM. Sure you can charge them so that you possibly equal their attacks for the first round but as you say thats an average of 1-2 marines killed. You have to rely on the Sgts to do the killing. And guess what.. they have Sgts to.
> 
> So lets say you do some how beat them in HtH combat and you force a LD check on them. Guess what... 4 out of there 9 options are fearless so thats means no wiping them out. Another one of their troop options gets to re-roll their leadership IF they fail their base 9-10 w/ AC Leadership.


The Cult Troops also cost a load more points. Khorne Berzerkers should be better in hand to hand than regular Marines. Since they lose versatility and have to pay for it, it's not really a problem. Similarly adding Icons increases the price of the unit as well.

I don't really buy that the fact that opponents can expect Space Marines to include some power armour in the list makes them predictable and easily beatable. At minimum, it's only 180 points or so of your list. That leaves that other 1300-1800 points to fill with whatever you want. Most players take anti-2/3+ save weapons like Plasma when fighting Marines anyway.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Asmodia they may pay for their Icons and Cult Troops but the deal is they have that customizability and that is still 9 options, 8 of which are better in HtH than our 1 marine option. You assualt the same point cost of chaos marines with codex marines and you are going to loose far more often than not.

Gal the entire arguement you've posted is a fluff arguement and so I will first deal with it on a fluff point and then deal with it on the game mechanics point and show you systematically how this is wrong.

First off lets look at what Scouts are. Scouts are initiate level Astartes who do not have the Black Carapace installed in them yet. The Black Carapace is Phase 19 of the creation of Space Marines. As quoted from Index Astartes "Without the benefit of a black carapace, a Space Marines power armor is realitvely useless." Now I hope we all know that Space Marines are chosen beginning around the age of 10 to 12 and that all the implants, organs, and psychoconditioning phases happens between the ages of 10 to 18. So this means that Scouts are still teenagers and are in training to become Space Marines. As they do not have the black carpace they cannot use power armor and as such they recieve the next best thing the Imperium can provide for them Carapace armor which makes them lighter and more moble and dextrous than a power armored Marine.

Now lets look at why scouts are fielded at all. Training. They are in their own special Company (10th Company for all except Space Wolves and Black Templars and their successors) for training, conditioning, and futher implants of special organs. They are put into forward positions so that they are tryed by fire. Again this is the same for all except Space Wolves and Templars. If a chapter were to field its entire 10th company and loose them then they would be set back at least a DECADE for new marines so Scouts are divided up amongst all the major combat companies. They are lead by veterans Marines dedicated to training and leading them. It is supposedly one of the things that makes Space Marine training great is that pick from amongst the most skilled veterans to lead their scouts in hopes that the skill and experience of the vets will rub off on the scouts. They are sent out into the field to "scout" ahead *because* of their carapace armor which makes them lighter, faster, and stealtheir than their power armored breathren. This practically guarentees that whether you see them or not Scouts are there with any Space Marine force doing their job. So as you can see.. Scouts are not "Specialised"... they are "Generalized". Fluff wise every Marine (non SW or Tmplr) was a Scout at one point in time and they could be again.

Equipment wise they have bolters, bolt pistols, and ccw just like fluff wise all marines are supposed to have. Rifles suit the all round training of a new space marine and the capabilites of their carapace armor to help them get out front. I have no clue why they have shotguns. I think GW is trying to figure that out themselves. I believe GW is experimenting with the new Str 4 "Manstopper" shells to see if that makes shotguns more desirable and hence another alternative for weapons seeing how no one wants to use the Str 3 shotguns.

Lastly on the "Fluff" arguement of using something other than rank and file troops as a troop option. This arguement alone says that all "Aspect" warriors of the Eldar should be something other than Troops and that their only troop option should be Guardians and Eldar Pathfinder Rangers should certainly not be as they are even more specialised than simple scouts are. As far as Tau goes this means that only Fire Warriors should be troops as Kroot are given to them to field "special needs".

Now on to real game mechanics. What is the troop role? Why is the standard requirement to have 2 of them? Why do they have a max of 6 where others are 3 or less? Troops are meant to be the core of the army. Your foot schlogers. What you are supposed to bring to at least the smallest of battles. So from a mechanics point of view you allow people to bring that which is for all intents and purposes "the least deadly" and "least costly". Now Im not saying that Troops are weak by all means but they are supposed to be less intimidating and usually the least costly units. Scouts with only a 4+ AS and 2 pts cheaper certainly do full fill that role. Now why did they become Elites for Dark Angles? In the developers own words it was to encourage more widespread use of marines and less use of scouts for the DA... to make them diffrent from Codex Marines and was not meant to imply that scouts are "elite" soldiers. 

I already covered earlier how nearly every army has Troops which have specialised skills and are customizable so I dont think I should have to recover that again and we aggree that Space Marines need more than one troop option.

As to Space Wolves Scouts. These are highly trained Veterans. A Space Wolve does not leave leave their home planet untill they are full trained and equipped. They survive trials by fire as initatiates on their home planet and once they recieve the black Carapace they are inducted into the Blood Claw squads. You have to remeber.. bout the only rule of Codex Astartes that Space Wolves follow is the ~1000 marine limit.


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

Well, the new codex marines, which is going to be re done later in 1 1/2 years, or so, and the rhino thing is new, and even chaos is doing the same thing


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Not to get off topic but Space Wolves and Black Templars are the two chapters that do not follow the CA for the 1,000 marine limit. Remember they are divided into great companies of varied size. It was either in a WD article or maybe even the dex itself where it rumored that the puppies have 4-6,000 SM and the BT have about the same.


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

just because dark angels rule you dont have to go on at them


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

just because dark angels rule you dont have to go on at them:biggrin:


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

oh yeah i think i forgot to mention dark angels rule wooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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