# Kharn with Thousand Sons



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Today I had an interesting 1500 point battle with a Space Wolf friend of mine. We both came up with funny lists with some testing involved in our plans. I was testing Kharn with a usual squad of Thousand Sons stuck in a Land Raider (the rest wasn't important). First I'll tell you what actually happened then come up with some theories on other uses of this combo.

Fortunately, the Land Raider managed to reach a squad of Terminators with Logan Grimnar hiding in a forest. The squad jumped out, emptied their guns at them, killing one or maybe two guys, then charged (Rapid+S&P=WIN). Again fortunately, Kharn got in base contact with Logan, so I decided to target him. I had average rolls (only 3 ones ) and inflicted two wounds on him and one on my own (this is where the TS' 4+ Inv. Save comes into play: they not only protect them from outside threats, but Kharn too! :laugh, while Logan had quite crappy rolls and couldn't inflict a single wound (the one he managed to was saved by Kharn's own inv. save). At the end of that close combat I had 4 Sons left, the Asp. Sorc. and an uninjured Kharn, while he lost some two Termies and Logan had 1 wound left altogether. On his turn he assaulted Kharn with a Dreadnought, but Kharn had the higher initiative, so I had his six hits spread evenly between Logan and the Dread. The Dread exploded violently (6" explosion range) and Logan died, and once again Kharn emerged uninjured. At this point my friend gave up, saying that it was pointless to continue (which made a lot of sense, since he had very few units and by turn 3 he had lost half or maybe more of them).

What I learned from this encounter is that Kharn is a hero-killing maniac, and even without Eternal Warrior hes a HUGE threat (if he had he'd be the perfect guy for the job). Furthermore, the Thousand Sons provide and ideal shield for him for two very important reasons. Firstly, as I've mentioned earlier, the Sons' high invulnerable saves keep them alive from threats from every direction and I'm talking about Kharn and the usual anti-Kharn firepower here. Secondly, even if the opponent manages to blow up his transport and/or stay outside charge range, the bolters of the Sons will remain a considerable threat.

Going on to theories, the Aspiring Sorcerer is a very good complement to Kharn because if theres some big many-wounded monster coming at them without Eternal Warrior, the Sorcerer can use his Force Weapon to kill it with a single blow. And even if that fails, Kharn will just chop him up, so you'll always have a plan "B".

Another interesting thing is that the Sorcerer can be given Gift of Chaos. Now I know that most of you have no faith in that spell whatsoever, and even I have yet to test the thing, but you have to realise the potential within that spell, especially now that we're thinking of using the Sons in close combat. Consider this: Straken and his crapload of Guardsmen decide to swamp you and while the Guardsmen provide a meatshiled for Straken's command squad (meaning that they keep you from getting into base contact with him), he keeps beating the crap out of your men. Or rather, he wishes he did, because: "Lookie, Straken has T4! Lookie, I threw a 5! Straken turned into a pile of shit thats eating itself!" and there you go, the trump card of the opponent is gone and Kharn can go and kill people without having to fear power weapon-wielding guys singling him out in CC.

To sum it up, I think that Kharn paired up with the Sons is a potent anti-hero and anti-MEQ unit, with good potential to wreck anything thats not a Monolith in close combat, while being extremely resilient to pretty much everything. The downside of it is that its slow once it gets out of its dedicated transport, has a rather high point cost and isn't very forgiving to the player's mistakes (meaning that you can either use them right or wrong and win or fail, respectively). 

What do you think?


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Hmm interesting idea.. though very unfluffy to put kharn with 1ksons, I can see the strategic and tactical advantages of it.

Last time I saw Kharn was in an apoc battle where he and 20 berserkers jumped out of a stormlord and chopped up our baneblade. Then 2 calidus assassins and a squad of GK termies came from the sides and shot/assaulted the hell out of him and the berserkers. Killed them all in one go while Kharn failed miserably. ( shot 10 berserkers, then assaulted, Kharn did 1 wound to 1 of the calidus assassins, and we killed all 10 berserkers with our powerweapon I5 combat killyness, Kharn died due to having to take 9 armour saves from the overrun )


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Yeah obviously a very unfluffy tactic, but seems to work out in your case, I'll have to test it out in some of my games. Maybe in general the Thousand Sons could work out to be IC guarders, but with Kharn seems to be the best.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Yeah, I know its completely unfluffy, but so is a Lash Prince leading Berserkers. 

@Einar

That was a stupid thing to do, he should have kept Kharn safe from that crapload of power weapons. And cutting a Baneblade in half isn't a big deal, all you need is 3 wrecks/explosions on her poor AV12 rear armour (I've no idea why isn't he AV14 all around, same thoughts about the Titans), which is a piece of cake with Kharn having 7 S6+2D6 attacks against it, not to mention the optional Champ with a PF, 4 S9+D6 hits are like 4 Lascannon shots. In short, the guy used Kharn the way he shouldn't have. That extra +D6 for armour penetration might make you feel cocky, but its meant to keep walkers from killing him with one hit. Hell, if only he had Eternal Warrior...


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

hehe yea.. but the fun part was that we didn't hurt Kharn at all.. not directly.. we simply shot 10 of his berserkers, then killed the other 10 in CC before they could fight back against us, thus creating that massive combat result, and killing Kharn with that.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I'd use it sounds good, and to those who say unfluffy(in a too serious you must play like it should be kind of way) I agree with the lash prince thing, comment the upside to this codex is you can do this legally, unlike the old where it was uniform to chaos gods.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> hehe yea.. but the fun part was that we didn't hurt Kharn at all.. not directly.. we simply shot 10 of his berserkers, then killed the other 10 in CC before they could fight back against us, thus creating that massive combat result, and killing Kharn with that.


Whoa, Kharn has 7 hits on charge at most, how could he kill 10 of his own in one fell swoop? That guy really had a bad day then, having rolled so many 1s. I kinda feel sorry for him.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's an interesting one indeed, and arguably a good place to put Kharn, so props for that.

I do have a couple of issues with the set up, as follows:

Slow and purposeful on the Tsons could make Kharn fail to get into assault. Admittedly, you are often charging into terrain anyway, and you would be unlucky to fail because of this, but sometimes you will.

Tsons are also expensive, and not very good themselves at cc. You counter these issues quite well, since their job isn't really to kill things but to back up Kharn and not die - which they do pretty well. It's well worth looking at.

I think one of the key ways in which this unit is interesting is in taking and holding objectives. A unit of zerkers on an objective will often just be shot, and won't like standing still if the game continues. The Tsons are tricky to get rid of by shooting or assault and shoot back.

+rep for a new idea (to me at least).


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Whoa, Kharn has 7 hits on charge at most, how could he kill 10 of his own in one fell swoop? That guy really had a bad day then, having rolled so many 1s. I kinda feel sorry for him.


He didn't.. the combat went like this:

Shooting phase:
2 Calidus assassins whoosh onto his unit, the grey Knight termies open fire, 10 berserkers die horribly.

Assault:
Calidus assassins and termies move in, 
Iinitiative 7, Kharn goes first, attacks one calidus assassin, inflicts one wound on her.
Initiative 5: Termies and calidus assassins stick pointy things into the 10 remaining berserkers, all of them die.

End of Combat: Chaos has inflicted 1 wound, we have inflicted 10, chaos loses combat by 9, Kharn is fearless, so is forced to make 9 armour saves due to no retreat, and dies horribly.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Someguy said:


> It's an interesting one indeed, and arguably a good place to put Kharn, so props for that.
> 
> I do have a couple of issues with the set up, as follows:
> 
> ...


Thanks! I was hoping that this was news to you guys. 

Indeed, the Sons really slow Kharn down, but the idea is that you're giving them a LR or a Rhino at the very least that should live long enough to take them close enough for a charge, a tactic thats identical to any CC specialist squad we have. The only real problem is that if they get shot while being miles away from their target. But even then its not that big of a deal, since the Sons kick ass in ranged combat. Its very balanced and I have a hard time to tell where are they the best, in CC or at range, because with Kharn there they excell at both, though I'm leaning a bit towards CC. Their biggest problem is that you need a lot of luck to get good rolls either way.



Inquisitor Einar said:


> He didn't.. the combat went like this:
> 
> Shooting phase:
> 2 Calidus assassins whoosh onto his unit, the grey Knight termies open fire, 10 berserkers die horribly.
> ...


There are a few things I have trouble with:
1, Kharn has I5, and even with Furious Charge he has only I6, but it seems it was they who were charged at, so WTF.
2, How could Kharn inflict only 1 wound when he hits on a 2+ REGARDLESS of their WS, and wounds on a 3+ against T4 with a power weapon? Ultra-crap rolls are the only logical explanation to this. Again, WTF.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Einar's example seems a bit odd really. First, it's kind of off topic as it isn't about this combo anyway.

Rules-wise, I think some studying of stat lines is in order as well, particularly for initiative stats.

Also, it seems like kharn killed a baneblade, then had a horrible round in cc (assisted by "initiative 5" grey knights). He died, along with his zerkers, having killed about their value anyway. It was a mistake having him hit the callidus instead of the GKs.

On the whole though it doesn't add much to this discussion, unfortunately. You can never really tell much from one performance, good or bad.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> 2, How could Kharn inflict only 1 wound when he hits on a 2+ REGARDLESS of their WS, and wounds on a 3+ against T4 with a power weapon? Ultra-crap rolls are the only logical explanation to this. Again, WTF.


Assassins have a 4+ invuln remember - so assuming 6 attacks, 5 hit, 3 wound, then you have 2 of the 3 make 4+ saves. Not that unlikely really, and the Result: khan causes a single wound. Khan really needs the charge for all out awesomeness, though he's still probably the best value chaos character you can get, outside of a lash prince. The Initiative really doesn't matter at that point, as he didn't kill anyone, so they probably just forgot it's only 5 off the charge. 

As for the TS and kharn? sounds like a good match to me, soulless warriors who really don't mind taking an axe to the chest once in a while. The biggest problem you'd have is units fleeing after you shoot them up with 20 AP3 bolter shots, especially SMs with combat tactics. Against anyone else though, it's nice .


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

For the fluff 'eads, why not use a unit of vanilla Chaos Marines (gasp! *But Vanilla Marines aren't competitive Drake!*) with an Icon of Tzeentch and an Aspiring Champion with a power fist? It's less of a fluff abomination since these Chaos Marines probably only have Tzeentch's blessing for a single battle/short period of time and has many of the same advantages that the Thousand Sons do (mostly the Invul thing to protect them from Kharn). They're also more competent fighters than the Thousand Sons are and can take special weapons.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> For the fluff 'eads, why not use a unit of vanilla Chaos Marines (gasp! *But Vanilla Marines aren't competitive Drake!*) with an Icon of Tzeentch and an Aspiring Champion with a power fist? It's less of a fluff abomination since these Chaos Marines probably only have Tzeentch's blessing for a single battle/short period of time and has many of the same advantages that the Thousand Sons do (mostly the Invul thing to protect them from Kharn). They're also more competent fighters than the Thousand Sons are and can take special weapons.


I keep kicking ass with vanilla CSM with two meltas and a Rhino, the only time I'd need a champ is when I fight Marines (the Tau and IG couldn't care less). If you have anything to DS, give them IoCG. Every other icon is completely useless, since the relevant Cult Troop can do the assigned job ten times better, not to mention cheaper.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry for going offtopic, and I was told Kharn had I7, didn't know it was 'only' 5.
At any rate, we had made sure that Kharn could only attack my calidus, by putting her in B2B with him to stop him from 
using the countermove to get to the GK Termies, who jammed themselves into the berserkers.
Anyway, the regular marine idea Katie gave might be a good alternative, and should be cheaper than the 1ksons, still I'd see if I could russle up a landraider for them, so you can drive up and assault with them, metal boxes can be annoying in that sense.


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

In fact vanilla with IoT is really nice. I mean they are better than the tsons in combat and you don't have the problem with Slow and purposeful, and they can have a champ with a additonal pfist and 1 special weapon...nice one. I think I will give this a try!

+rep for Khorothis and Katie


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Lets sum up the pros and cons of each idea:

Sons:
+: 4+ Inv. Save, AP3 Relentless Bolters, Force Weapon, Spell (mostly Doombolt, but depending on the opponent it could be anything, even a BoC which is basically a multi-melta)
-: 30 points more expensive than the CSM setup, Slow though Purposeful, can't have 2D6 armour penetration via Melta

CSM:
+: 30 points cheaper than the Sons, faster, can have a real Melta or Flamer much cheaper than the Sons, DS-ing units can lock on to the Icon, you don't feel bad when Kharn hacks one in half just for the hell of it
-: 5+ Inv. Save, weaker Bolters, no Force Weapon and Spells, Fast but not Purposeful

Now lets evaluate each characteristic:

Inv. Save: dead important, this is the basis of the whole idea. 

Ranged capabilities: the more you can kill the better, and since this is a balancing factor for Kharn, its rather important.

Melee capabilities: again, the more the better, but since Kharn kicks ass regardless and on a higher initiative (meaning that there is a chance that less men will be attacking once hes done), its not too important, but then again, it is noteworthy.

Point cost: the bigger the difference between the two point costs the more important it becomes.

Special abilities: everyone loves power weapons and neat spells that help you kill people, so this bit is rather important.

Said characteristics in descending order:

Inv. Save > Ranged Capabilities & Special Abilities > Melee Capabilities

Point costs are relative, depending on the difference between the two. In this case I'd put it next to Melee Capabilities, because 30 points is while noteworthy, isn't a big deal.

Now lets see our specimen:

Sons: Great > Great; Little Potential-Low Pts Cost Medium Potential-High Pts Cost > Decent/Medium Potential (Force Weapon), Bit More Expensive

CSM: Decent > Decent; Little Potential-Low Pts Cost > Great (lotsa hits and PW/PF), Bit Cheaper

As we can see, the Sons have superior scores in the important areas over the CSM, making their advantages less important. My personal logical conclusion is that the Sons are the best choice to be Kharn's bodyguards.

This analysis is of course subjective, but I did my best to be fair and objective.


*EDIT:* I'm going to have a battle against another Space Wolf player this Friday, where I'll be using Kharn and the Sons again, though I have to admit that due to the battle taking place in a bigger campaign, there are going to be several oddities, like neither list being serious but ending up murderous without even having hoped for the eventual results. I'll post a report of the battle here so we'll have some more data to analyse (if anyone else still gives a damn that is, lol ).


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I just had my most disappointing battle I've ever had.

As I've said, I was testing how Kharn works with the Sons. Or rather intended to. The campaign match we played was in a swamp, which meant that no vehicles were allowed aside from skimmers. My list was the following (please note that I was both testing and kidding):

Kharn + 8+1 Son w/ Doombolt, 8xBerserkers w/ PF, 2x10xCSM w/ ML, 2x8xHavocs w/ 4xML, 2xObliterators

The Space Wolf's list had two Grey Hunter squads, a big Termie squad, Chaplain hero, Rockfist, two wolf riders and a Long Fang squad.

Long story short, he was annihilated. By the end of Turn 5 I lost a Havoc squad, 7 Sons, 7 Berserkers and one or maybe 2 CSM (note: none of them died in CC but due to nasty AP3-2 gunfire mostly), while he had 3 Long Fangs left. All because they were gunned down by a Tau-esque CSM army. Kharn couldn't do anything but shoot with his Plasma Pistol. I was hoping that since its Space Wolves I'll get to have some fierce CC action, but the one occasion he got into CC with me was when his lone Marine with a PF charged my lone Skull Champ with PF and failed to land a wound (major lol) while I was. 

However it is worth mentioning that Kharn with the Sons is just as intimidating from a CC perspective as a squad of Berserkers. And not without reason, because by adding Kharn to any squad, their CC capabilities dramatically increase. Furthermore this is a very unusual combo, which can be (or perhaps is) rather unsettling for the opponent. The other thing I learned from this game is (though its off topic) that shooty CSM lists should not be underestimated and that the Thousand Sons kick ass, despite what many people here have said. :grin:

If you guys are interested in further testing of this testing then I'll post more, I should be able to have a game or two tomorrow.


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