# Terminating Troublesome Traitors



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The following things have really been bugging my Dark Angels:

1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.

2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.

3. CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. They almost ignore boltguns, and 1/3 of Plasma shots you send their way come off the invulnerable (added to 1/3 missing, that's a large decrease in firepower). In combat, they strike before Tacticals and with more punch.

4. 3 Nurgle Obliterators in seperate squads. Very difficult to get rid of before they kill a Terminator squad or expensive vehicle.

5. Daemon Prince with Sigil of Corruption, Wings, and Mark of Tzeentch. Flying with a 3+ Invulnerable re-rolling 1s is pretty damn tough. Today it charged a squad of Deathwing, before being charged by another squad. It ate both squads at the cost of 3 wounds.

My models:
Chaplain in Terminator Armour
Azrael
Chaplain in Power Armour (old Asmodai)
2 Company Masters
2 Librarians in Power Armour, and 1 in Terminator Armour (1 can proxy as Azrael)
Drop Pod
4 Rhinos (one can be swapped out as Razorback)
30 Tactical Marines with 2 Plasma Cannons, 3 Plasma Guns (one can swap out for Melta or Flamer), Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta (can stand in as Veterans, Command Squad etc. - have a Banner Bearer too)
15 Deathwing Terminators (3 Sergeants, 2 Assault Cannons, Cyclone, 3 Chainfists)
5 Devastators with Missile Launchers
Predator with Lascannon sponsons
Vindicator
15 Scouts (8 Boltguns, 2 Heavy Bolters, 5 Sniper Rifles)
3 Ravenwing Bikers

ALLIES:
38-ish Guardsmen with Standard, 5 Vox-Casters, Meltagun, Plasma Gun, 4 Flamers, Heavy Weapon Team with Heavy Bolter, 3 Sergeants
Griffon
2 LRBTs with Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Hull, have got the sprue for the other sponson weapons.
Marbo
9 Kasrkins with a Meltagun (can stand in as Veterans with Carapace Armour, one has a Vox)

Usually play at 2000pts, occasionally going up to 2500 or 3000.

Any ideas? I have a decent enough budget, so if more shinies are required, so be it!

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> 1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.
> Flakk missiles, and plenty of them. You can spam them quite easily thanks to Tactical Squads and scouts. This option is the deciding factor for me whether to get Missile Launchers or Plasma Cannons.
> 
> 2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.
> ...


Bit of a rock-paper-scissors scenario here, so you'd probably have to select 2 or 3 of these at a time, as you probably won't be able to fit in all of them.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the speedy reply. Do you rate the Redeemer? I think it might be a rather nice one, my regular opponent has a single lonely Meltagun, and then 3 Obliterators and occasionally a Termicide squad (oh, how 5th edition!).

Midnight


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> The following things have really been bugging my Dark Angels:
> 
> 1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.


Speaking as a CSM player, the Heldrake is a godsend for us. As one of the toughest fliers in the game and with a respectable damage output (tailored to killing MEQ), it's a great investment in points for us and a great way to soak up enemy firepower... and distract the enemy from shooting at our more fragile assault units.

Its "downside" is that it only has a moderate damage output. Okay, it really builds up over the turns, but it's not like many other fliers, with multiple large blast template missiles _and_ about 4 other guns. You can ignore it if you don't want to devote the sizeable points chunk of your army that will be necessary to reliably take it out.

What to do about it if you want to kill it? Uh, ally in Imperial Guard in order to get a Vendetta/Hydra? Spend ~275 points on Devastators w/ flakk and a ADL with quad gun/icarus lascannon? There are few real easy counters, unfortunately. Or, from my point of view, I guess, fortunately. A Vendetta and a squad of devastators with flakk might be your best bet.



> 2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.


One word: flamers. Or any templates that ignore cover, really--can DAs get Thunderfire Cannons? Alternatively, a combat squad of marines who charge them should be able to take them out, provided the Overwatch isn't that bad. Yeah, these involve getting close, which you say you're having trouble with. Could you make a flamer-Ravenwing squad, or something? Zoom in, torch most of them, then charge the survivors and mop em up...

Flamer Special Weapon Squad in a Chimera (or the aforementioned Vendetta!), if you're going the Guard alies route, should be able to mop em up with relative ease. Just don't disembark until you've killed most of them and don't attract the notion of some bigger chaos unit--wait a few turns until making a beeline for the cultists, when his nasty units are committed elsewhere, or something.



> 3. CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. They almost ignore boltguns, and 1/3 of Plasma shots you send their way come off the invulnerable (added to 1/3 missing, that's a large decrease in firepower). In combat, they strike before Tacticals and with more punch.


Ummm, ally in Grey Knights with a Vindicare in order to snipe out the Icon Bearer? Hit 'em with a S8 AP3 battle cannon, somehow? (Vindicator, allied IG Russ). Meltas, if they hit, are basically an auto-kill.

Alternatively, and more realistically, tie them up with terminators. Their piddly I5 attacks will bounce off while your power fists will pulp them and you can laugh at the notion of "Feel No Pain".



> 4. 3 Nurgle Obliterators in seperate squads. Very difficult to get rid of before they kill a Terminator squad or expensive vehicle.


Also very expensive--228 for those three models, who are essentially a lascannon and a plasma cannon every other turn, or some other decent stuff at close range. I'd say ignore 'em and focus on the important enemy squads first. You're probably gonna take some casualties from ignoring them, but that's all right. 

If you have plasma in the area that doesn't have anything better to fire at, go ahead and wipe one of the Oblits off the map. Otherwise--not to high a priority, I think. They're tough but only put out a moderate amount of BS4 firepower--If I were playing against that, I'd be fine with living with that while I killed his scoring units and designated assault units.



> 5. Daemon Prince with Sigil of Corruption, Wings, and Mark of Tzeentch. Flying with a 3+ Invulnerable re-rolling 1s is pretty damn tough. Today it charged a squad of Deathwing, before being charged by another squad. It ate both squads at the cost of 3 wounds.


First off, that Prince is illegal. The Sigil of Corruption is in the Special Issue Wargear section, and the Prince can only buy items in the Rewards and Artifacts sections. He can have a 4++ rerolling 1s, or he can have 3+ cover save evading with Nurgle--but only one of 'em.

Bolter fire, bolter fire and bolter fire. That combo certainly sounds nasty, but hey, you can't reroll rerolls. Force enough saves and he's going to fail some.

Use small units/skyfire units first, until you've knocked him out of the sky, then just let loose with massed bolter salvoes. If you have to sacrifice a small squad to bait the enemy Prince out of cover, it's a noble sacrifice, but worth it--then you can shred him with massed shooting. Make him feel the pain of that mere T5.

Also, a Librarian has a _chance_ of taking him out. With Biomancy powers (Iron Arm, Warp Time) or Telepathy's Invisibility, there's a good chance he'll survive the Prince's first smash attack and have a chance to strike back with his force weapon. Still, that's something of a maaassive gamble, seeing as more likely than not, the Librarian will just get torn limb from limb. Still, they make me catch my breath whenever my Prince has to face off against one in a challenge.

Edit: Spanner's got some great advice as well, and it's more tailored to the DA specifically. Listen to that wise man.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Thanks for the speedy reply. Do you rate the Redeemer? I think it might be a rather nice one, my regular opponent has a single lonely Meltagun, and then 3 Obliterators and occasionally a Termicide squad (oh, how 5th edition!).
> 
> Midnight


The only issues I have with Land Raiders in general is they're single purpose (terminator transport), and tend to die to melta. However what you've said can only be good news - IMO this is the best standard variant of Land Raider, so I would say this is certainly an option. Obliterators aren't an issue provided they're not within 18", as I don't rate Lascannons for high AV tank hunting.



Mossy Toes said:


> Listen to that wise man.


:so_happy:


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Given that I reckon I know this certain player, I have had similar problems and feel your pain, mainly with the obliterators, have you tried focussing on the obliterators with your plasma fire, as you are then leaving him to save on 5++ which ismuch better, this is what I generally do against TeQ especially at T5. Or as Mossy says, try and ignore them unless they become a problem

Helldrake = Flakk, as much as you can, from as far away as possible, and the fact the helldrake has 360 fire now is also going to be a problem.

With the Deamon prince, I can't be much help as normally I just throw a c'tan or shackle lord at it, generally I would try to focus on grounding it as a S9 hit is nothing to be sniffed at and provided the helldrake isn't a problem, you could send Flakk missiles it's way, but with 4++ and that damned tzeentch deamon prince rule, no matte what it is always going to be a tough takedown. (I have to admit I am annoyed how much he has used a 3++) And most likely now he will end up taking power armour, so try to find something AP3 or better.

To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.

With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> Given that I reckon I know this certain player, I have had similar problems and feel your pain, mainly with the obliterators, have you tried focussing on the obliterators with your plasma fire, as you are then leaving him to save on 5++ which ismuch better, this is what I generally do against TeQ especially at T5. Or as Mossy says, try and ignore them unless they become a problem


Yeah, the problem is getting the Plasma to them before they pop expensive, good stuff.



falcoso said:


> Helldrake = Flakk, as much as you can, from as far away as possible, and the fact the helldrake has 360 fire now is also going to be a problem.


Flak is proving very difficult. I only have the 1 Devastator unit, and as anyone who's played a Heldrake before can tell you, 5 Marines isn't even a minor threat to one no matter what weapons they have. Flak missiles are also pretty awful. One third miss, two thirds of that bounce off armour, a third of that is Jinked, and half will get eaten by Daemonic Possession. Very, very difficult to shut down.



falcoso said:


> With the Deamon prince, I can't be much help as normally I just throw a c'tan or shackle lord at it, generally I would try to focus on grounding it as a S9 hit is nothing to be sniffed at and provided the helldrake isn't a problem, you could send Flakk missiles it's way, but with 4++ and that damned tzeentch deamon prince rule, no matte what it is always going to be a tough takedown. (I have to admit I am annoyed how much he has used a 3++) And most likely now he will end up taking power armour, so try to find something AP3 or better.


TL Storm Bolters (standard gear on Terminators now :grin are up to the job of Grounding it, it was just the 3++ re-rollable or T6 that was an obstacle. We've now had words and hammered out that Nurgle Daemon Princes do not have the Mark of Nurgle, and Tzeentch Daemon Princes cannot take Sigils of Corruption.



falcoso said:


> To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.


Ratlings are cool, but the chances of getting a Precision Shot that then wounds, goes through Power Armour AND Feel No Pain is minimal. Battle Cannons may be the answer, I just need to work on deploying them better.



falcoso said:


> With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.


Nah, Battle Cannons bounce right off of 4+ cover. Deathwing Terminators could do the job, but that's a 245pt unit dedicated to killing the 160pts or so of Cultists.

Good ideas though, people, keep 'em coming.

Midnight


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

falcoso said:


> To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.


I assume he could go with sniper scouts, as well. Or, if the opposing player keeps the icon bearer at the back of the unit, one could take Land Speeders (or bikes) and zoom them around the unit so that the icon bearer is the closest model, and the first model to die is said icon bearer. _Then_ you unleash the plasma deluge and wipe out the squad.



> With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.


Not, I assume, when the cultists go to ground for a 3+ save against that Russ.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Oops, missed Midnight's reply.



MidnightSun said:


> We've now had words and hammered out that Nurgle Daemon Princes do not have the Mark of Nurgle, and Tzeentch Daemon Princes cannot take Sigils of Corruption.


Goooood, yes. He should be rather less of a thorn in your side, now. Unless your opponent starts fielding him with Biomancy powers, so he'll be regenerating wounds or getting +D3 S/T, etc.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Goooood, yes. He should be rather less of a thorn in your side, now. Unless your opponent starts fielding him with Biomancy powers, so he'll be regenerating wounds or getting +D3 S/T, etc.


The Tzeentch Prince does use Biomancy, but with only 1 roll (is it 1?) due to being forced to take a shitty Tzeentch power, it's not too troublesome. Iron Arm's the only scary one.

Midnight


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

In terms of the cultists, my favoured way is use a hellhound


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> The Tzeentch Prince does use Biomancy, but with only 1 roll (is it 1?) due to being forced to take a shitty Tzeentch power, it's not too troublesome. Iron Arm's the only scary one.


Unless he takes a scroll of magnus which he normally does for one of his psykers (but it's the sorcerer I think, and I believe it is only one per army)


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## Shadowz-Demon (Jun 5, 2012)

Honestly seems like the best thing to do is to surrender to the unstoppable powers of chaos, but that's just my opinion :so_happy:


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Flak is proving very difficult. I only have the 1 Devastator unit, and as anyone who's played a Heldrake before can tell you, 5 Marines isn't even a minor threat to one no matter what weapons they have. Flak missiles are also pretty awful. One third miss, two thirds of that bounce off armour, a third of that is Jinked, and the remainder will often get eaten by Daemonic Possession. Very, very difficult to shut down.



Well clearly you haven't tried my Flakk Missile Supreme:




Librarian - 65

Company Veterans (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 150
Company Veterans (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 150
Company Veterans (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 150

Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 130
Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 130
Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 130
Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher +Flakk, Rhino) - 130
Scout Squad (Snipers, Camo, Missile Launcher +Flakk) - 95
Scout Squad (Snipers, Camo, Missile Launcher +Flakk) - 95

Devastator Squad (4x Missile Launchers +Flakk) - 170
Devastator Squad (4x Missile Launchers +Flakk) - 170
Devastator Squad (4x Missile Launchers +Flakk) - 170

TOTAL: 1735

Obviously you can knock off a Vet Squad and a Scout squad for 1500, or add some Fast Attack (perhaps some speeders) for 2000.


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

Just a note on Daemon Princes. They do not have any of the corresponding marks of chaos, so the best he can get is 5++ and only wastes points adding AoDG since it is 5++ as well.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Well clearly you haven't tried my Flakk Missile Supreme:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would give you rep, but I'm not allowed. That list is so good and so bad at the same time, I love it.



falcoso said:


> Unless he takes a scroll of magnus which he normally does for one of his psykers (but it's the sorcerer I think, and I believe it is only one per army)


Tends not to be an issue due to the even more random nature of the Scrolls than the roll at the beginning of the game. Adding Scrolls to a Daemon Prince with Daemon of Tzeentch, Wings and Power Armour is also heading up into 300pt territory.

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I would give you rep, but I'm not allowed. That list is so good and so bad at the same time, I love it.


:thank_you:


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## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

I play against Chaos regularly too., I just tried this the other night (though my opponent ended up not taking fliers), but I used two librarians with divination powers and a force field generator (the thing that gives things within 3 inches a 4++) and two flakk missile devastator squads inside an aegis defense line. A librarian manned a quadgun. One librarian was level 2 and took the primaris power and got the power that let them ignore cover while the other unit just took the primaris. Almost all my missiles were hitting, again no fliers in this list so I was rocking krak missiles, but it was deadly. And that 4++ was there to protect against the baleflamer a bit.

That was at 1500 points, so you may be able to use that set up. Just a thought.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

lockeF said:


> I play against Chaos regularly too., I just tried this the other night (though my opponent ended up not taking fliers), but I used two librarians with divination powers and a force field generator (the thing that gives things within 3 inches a 4++) and two flakk missile devastator squads inside an aegis defense line. A librarian manned a quadgun. One librarian was level 2 and took the primaris power and got the power that let them ignore cover while the other unit just took the primaris. Almost all my missiles were hitting, again no fliers in this list so I was rocking krak missiles, but it was deadly. And that 4++ was there to protect against the baleflamer a bit.
> 
> That was at 1500 points, so you may be able to use that set up. Just a thought.


That's exactly what I've planned for the future, but I need an Aegis Line and some more Devastators before I can actually run it. Perfect Timing + Prescience + Flak Missiles = quick kills.

Midnight


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## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> That's exactly what I've planned for the future, but I need an Aegis Line and some more Devastators before I can actually run it. Perfect Timing + Prescience + Flak Missiles = quick kills.
> 
> Midnight



Well I think it was well worth it. It made for a really nasty fire-base. Not to mention, you could use the frag option to take out those damn cultists. It is just necessary to have a counter-charge unit close by to the line or risk getting taken out by some dedicated CC.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

lockeF said:


> Well I think it was well worth it. It made for a really nasty fire-base. Not to mention, you could use the frag option to take out those damn cultists. It is just necessary to have a counter-charge unit close by to the line or risk getting taken out by some dedicated CC.


I'm taking Infra-Visors as well, because why not. I need somethng that can do punching, I'm a little short of combat units at the moment.

Midnight


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