# Do Salamanders look like ethnic Africans?



## MontytheMighty

Space Wolves generally look Scandinavian



























White Scars generally look Asiatic 



























Do the Salamanders look African, or do they simply look generic European (like most Space Marines) except with red eyes and dark skin?

Judging by this picture, I'd say they look like Europeans with dark skin and red eyes









I don't really care either way, just curious

I think SW and WS should look Scandinavian and Asiatic because they're based on Vikings and Mongols. It would look ridiculous if you switched them around (i.e. Oriental Vikings and Nordic Mongols). Similarly, a primarch and legion based on, say, Shaka Zule and his Zulus warriors should look African, not European. 

However, the Salamanders aren't based on an African culture...so they don't necessarily have to look African.


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## hailene

They *should* look like white people who stayed in the oven for a little too long.

To our knowledge, Noctourne is inhabited by "white" people. The geneseed simply changes their skin color. It doesn't sculpt their facial features--not any more than other geneseed does.

If you see a Salamander that looks African, then the artist made a fluff mistake.


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## MontytheMighty

hailene said:


> They *should* look like white people who stayed in the oven for a little too long.
> 
> To our knowledge, Noctourne is inhabited by "white" people. The geneseed simply changes their skin color. It doesn't sculpt their facial features--not any more than other geneseed does.
> 
> If you see a Salamander that looks African, then the artist made a fluff mistake.


I see...I've been seeing a fair amount of fan art with African-looking Salamanders, made me wonder whether there was a basis in the fluff

Is there a possibility that the original colonists on Nocturne were African looking? I believe the original colonists of Chogoris are East Asian-looking, hence the Mongol appearance of most WS marines


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## hailene

I don't believe so. I don't know too much about the Salamanders, though, so maybe?

If I recall correctly, in the short story about Vulkan growing up and fighting the DE before the coming of the Emperor, the people were not described as being of African descent.

Maybe who has read through the Salamanders series could shed some light?


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## ckcrawford

I believe they are described as being pitched black with glowing red eyes. Usually though Africans are pretty dark in skin tone they have a hint of brown. But I believe Salamanders are an unusual black. The way they appear can make other chapters a bit uneasy, and chapters have gone to blows with the Salamanders, believing they maybe tainted.


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## hailene

ckcrawford said:


> I believe they are described as being pitched black with glowing red eyes. Usually though Africans are pretty dark in skin tone they have a hint of brown. But I believe Salamanders are an unusual black. The way they appear can make other chapters a bit uneasy, and chapters have gone to blows with the Salamanders, believing they maybe tainted.


The question is whether they're white people with black skin or Africans with black skin. I think it's the former case.

Skin tone doesn't affect facial structure.


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## Magpie_Oz

The Salamanders are Black, that is they are actually Black in colour not brown or shades there of.

They are black with red eyes because of the Space Marination process they go through and the way that process reacts with the Nocturne radiation.

In Tome of Fire one of the new recruits is described as having eyes that are turning red and skin that is darking.

The colour of their skin prior to this is not mentioned anywhere I have seen and is pretty much irrelevant.


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> The colour of their skin prior to this is not mentioned anywhere I have seen and is pretty much irrelevant.


I WANT to say that the short story where Vulkan fights off the DE right before the Big-E shows up describes Vulkan's fellow villagers. I can't, for the life of me, remember its name of where I read it. I thought it was in one of the compilation Horus Heresy novels or something?

And it's not irrelevant. Clearly some people (like the OP) have an interest. And modelers and artists would be interested in it as well.


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## ckcrawford

Apparently its a reaction of the geneseed and the radiation. If thats the case I'm surprised the Blood Angels aren't black too.


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## Israfil

hailene said:


> And it's not irrelevant. Clearly some people (like the OP) have an interest. And modelers and artists would be interested in it as well.


it's irrelevant in so much as whatever color they are before becoming marines Salamanders are black like charcoal


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## hailene

Israfil said:


> it's irrelevant in so much as whatever color they are before becoming marines Salamanders are black like charcoal


If that's what he meant...

It _still_ matters. A black-skinned white person looks very different from a black-skinned black person. It may be important for people's imaginations when they're reading the books, for writers (both professional and amateur) when they're describing their Nocturnians, artists drawing the Nocturnians, and modelers who want the utmost accuracy in their models.

The skin color itself may not matter, but the ethnicity it describes does, to some people. I don't particularly care what my armored supermen look like, but that's just me.


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## Archon Dan

From Leicanum.



> The Salamanders were at one stage conceptualised as being black of skin tone; this was commonly interpreted (by the 'Eavy Metal painters as well as the fandom) to mean a natural black skin tone. In Fifth edition however, it was made clear that this meant actual black skin; as in jet black, coal black etc. Additionally, the Salamanders were also given 'burning' red eyes that actually glow.





> Gene-seed
> 
> As far as can be determined by the Magos Biologis of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Salamander's gene-seed appears to be both stable and as yet uncorrupted. An unusual trait of the Salamanders is that their Battle-Brothers tend to be slower in reflex reaction than other Chapters, though the origin of this factor is debated; it is unknown whether this defect is due to a problem with the gene-seed that manifested as a result of most Salamanders being raised on their high-gravity world, or the psychological result of the Chapter's doctrines and psycho-conditioning against hastiness and impetuosity. However, it has been noted that a Salamanders Space Marine can move just as quickly as any Astartes equipped with Power Armour, and are still significantly faster than those of a normal human.[1a]
> 
> Also, as a result of a reaction between their genetics and the high levels of radiation on Nocturne, Salamanders battle brothers have dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. This frightening appearance is entirely superficial, but has intimidated more than one rebellion into submission without firing a shot.[2a]


I think the reason the BA geneseed does not react similarly, is that it is likely a different radiation. The Baal system had a nuclear war, so is likely bathed in Gamma radiation or similar. Nocturne is bombarded by solar radiation, which is typically X-ray or Microwave.

The bit about high gravity confuses me though. If raised in high gravity, one would be comparatively stronger and faster in a lower gravity environment. Watch the moon landing videos.


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## Lost&Damned

hailene said:


> I don't believe so. I don't know too much about the Salamanders, though, so maybe?
> 
> If I recall correctly, in the short story about Vulkan growing up and fighting the DE before the coming of the Emperor, the people were not described as being of African descent.
> 
> Maybe who has read through the Salamanders series could shed some light?


its called Promethean sun.
also since Vulkan is blackit might be passed on through the geneseed.


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## Magpie_Oz

hailene said:


> If that's what he meant...


What I was meaning is that ethnicity has very little bearing on anything in 40k and in all my readings, is rarely mentioned. The only instance I can think of is Death Cult Assassins being mentioned as being oriental.


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## Arcane

Whatever semblance of racial heritage there was seems to be gone in the 40k millennium. Earth is one giant city and nations are meaningless. So as to whether the Salamanders have larger lips, wider noses and broader faces in addition to their coal black skin? That really seems irreverent and up to the artist to interpret. For what it is worth, they are no longer Human. They are genetically altered mutants.


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## Magpie_Oz

Are they mutants tho' ? I thought they were just normal people who get altered genetically, taking mutant to mean a natural abberration in the genes


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> What I was meaning is that ethnicity has very little bearing on anything in 40k and in all my readings, is rarely mentioned. The only instance I can think of is Death Cult Assassins being mentioned as being oriental.


I think it does. A lot of the armies/races are based on cultures to some extent. Understanding their background culture may give you a better understanding of the force.

The WS are Mongolian. The Tanith First and Only are Scots. The TS are Egyptians. Of course the Space Wolves have a bit of a Viking spin on them. 

And many other armies or forces have real life connections.


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## Magpie_Oz

I think that is mainly the background stories that have been drawn from various areas of actual history. 

While there is a definite "Mongol Hordes" spin to the White Scars and a Persian feel to the Thousand Suns there is no clear indication of ethnicity.


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think that is mainly the background stories that have been drawn from various areas of actual history.
> 
> While there is a definite "Mongol Hordes" spin to the White Scars and a Persian feel to the Thousand Suns there is no clear indication of ethnicity.


It's harder to tell because authors don't say "And Joe Bob had Asian eyes" or "Mary Jane had dreadlocks like an African person". They're usually more subtle about it.

I think the Space Wolves are pretty solidly Scandinavian. They're extremely white skinned with straight (but often braided) dark brown or red hair.

Stereotypes and generalizations, but, yeah.


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## Magpie_Oz

Well like I said I think it is more or less irrelevant.

They can be what ever you want.


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> Well like I said I think it is more or less irrelevant.
> 
> They can be what ever you want.


Some people do care. They want to be accurate.

And does _anything_ really matter? We're talking about a made up universe to sell little plastic and metal figurines.

You want female Space Marines? You want a revived Emperor? You want to have a Necron/Tyranid/Ork tea party? You can imagine or play all of those to your heart's content.

It clashes with the canon. And some people want to know/see/write/paint/create something that jives with the canon.

Honestly, to me, it doesn't really matter. Unless reminded directly, I generally picture everyone (even Salamanders) as generic white people. It doesn't affect the story to me. But I understand that different people have different opinions.


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## Magpie_Oz

OK but how can be accurate to something that is indeterminate?


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> OK but how can be accurate to something that is indeterminate?


What do you mean? Are you trying to say that we don't know what a Noctournian looks like?


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## Magpie_Oz

Do we know ?


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## normtheunsavoury

My take on it is that most worlds would be generally as ethnically diverse as earth is today, there will be all sorts of ethnicities and combinations of them. On some worlds people may have interbred enough for there to be a single racial appearance, or on others there may have been some degree of racial prejudice or hierarchy that has resulted in one racial type becoming dominant. 
When it comes to space marines I would say that they are drawn from the best the world has to offer regardless of physical appearance, white, black, asian, arab whatever. In the case of the Salamanders they all end up looking black, like coal, regardless of what colour they were to begin with. 

On a side note this has always baffled me when it comes to sci-fi, worlds always tend to be very one dimensional, there's never any thought put into ethnic or any other form of diversity. World A is jungle, world B is desert, world C is a bit like Europe, why can't other worlds be like Earth, diverse and interesting?


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## Magpie_Oz

Battletech/Mechwarrior has diversity but it is more that each world is homogeneous within a diverse Galaxy.


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## MontytheMighty

I realise the Salamanders have coal black skin

Do local Nocturneans have black skin? Perhaps they're dark-skinned to begin with and the gene-seed makes them pitch black? 

*Anyway, my question is not about skin colour*. I'm asking whether Salamanders look African...as in facial structure. Look at the pictures of White Scars. They have Asian facial structure. Do Salamanders have African facial structure...or do they have European facial structure with dark skin and red eyes? 

An albino African is not racially Caucasian even though he has light skin. 
Similarly, a dark-skinned Caucasian is not racially African even though he has dark skin


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## Magpie_Oz

From what I have read there is no conclusive information either way.


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## hailene

Magpie_Oz said:


> Do we know ?


That's why the OP posted the thread. I still can't find that bloody story I'm looking for.



Lost&Damned said:


> its called Promethean sun.


No, that's Vulkan fighting on a planet with Eldar on it.

I'm talking about the short story where Vulkan, in his childhood, fighting off Eldar slavers on Noctourne.


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## gen.ahab

MontytheMighty said:


> I realise the Salamanders have coal black skin
> 
> Do local Nocturneans have black skin? Perhaps they're dark-skinned to begin with and the gene-seed makes them pitch black?
> 
> *Anyway, my question is not about skin colour*. I'm asking whether Salamanders look African...as in facial structure. Look at the pictures of White Scars. They have Asian facial structure. Do Salamanders have African facial structure...or do they have European facial structure with dark skin and red eyes?
> 
> An albino African is not racially Caucasian even though he has light skin.
> Similarly, a dark-skinned Caucasian is not racially African even though he has dark skin


As I recall, racial identification is usually done through description of the skin tone, so you probably would be hard pressed to do find a reference which gives you a clear idea of the racial background.


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## MontytheMighty

gen.ahab said:


> As I recall, racial identification is usually done through description of the skin tone, so you probably would be hard pressed to do find a reference which gives you a clear idea of the racial background.


Is there any art out there of Salamanders without helmets (like the Firedrake cover, in which the seated Salamander looks European with dark skin)?


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## Magpie_Oz

The only art I have seen is that cover for the Tome of Fire series.

Only other thing mentioned in terms of differentiation is that Dak'ir is Ignean but that seems to be more of a class distinction.


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## Lost&Damned

hailene said:


> That's why the OP posted the thread. I still can't find that bloody story I'm looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's Vulkan fighting on a planet with Eldar on it.
> 
> I'm talking about the short story where Vulkan, in his childhood, fighting off Eldar slavers on Noctourne.


Seriously its part of promethean sun, it talks about Vulkans past.
read it, in there somehwere it talks about him and his past, his role etc....


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## hailene

Lost&Damned said:


> Seriously its part of promethean sun, it talks about Vulkans past.
> read it, in there somehwere it talks about him and his past, his role etc....


So you are correct. I briefly flipped through (I only read the book once). I actually had to flip through a digital copy to find the piece I was looking for.

Anyway, so I skimmed through it again...

Vulkan's adopted father has a "healthy tan" from working out in the plains.

It also seems that at least some people on Noctourne are pale. Vulkan describes the Emperor (without knowing who the Emperor is, at this point) as a "pale-faced stranger" and that people thought the Emperor "hailed from the nomadic tribes of Ignea". So clearly there are some pale people on Noctourne. At least relatively pale.


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## redmapa

But the Emperor isn't pale, his skin is a light brown/tanned colour, like your typical middle eastern person who has spent a bit too much time under the sun...If that's pale in nocturne then really white people must look like ghosts to Vulkan..

Personally I prefer to think that the Salamanders do look like ethnic africans even if such ethnicity doesn't really exist in the 40k universe, having them being 'mutated whites' is a bit stupid and bland imo..


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## hailene

We don't know what the Emperor looks like. He can look like anything he wants to look like.

I'm at school at the moment, so I don't have access to my books. I remember in my skimming that the Emperor did reveal (something closer to) his true-self to Vulkan in the end, so it was likely a guise of some sort.


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## Captain Madrakan

RIGHT.

Lets clarify a few things.

The caucasian race, although technologically gifted is one of the smallest races on the planet with south asians and east asians vastly outnumbering them. 

Is it safe to assume that in the 41st millennium, after the unification wars, etc... the ENTIRE GALAXY is white?

Its ridiculous. 

The Salamanders are a ******* people, or at least they were until Matt Ward turned them into coal black abominations. 

Think about it. The space marine legions are all based on something:

Ultramarines: Greek / Roman
World Eaters: Spartacus
Night Lords: Apocalypse Now
Raven Guard: The poem the Raven
White Scars: Mongols
Space Wolves: Scandinavian

I can do this all day.

Fact is that the Salamanders are based on ethnic Africans or at least any respectable gamer will understand this because frankly it's absurd to see them otherwise. 

The lack of racial diversity in this game is sickening to a point of racial supremacy.


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## Vaz

Can you point to a piece of art or fluff that categorically states that their "black" skin was the colour of a ******, and not that of someone caked in tar? I'll break out my HH:CV and my Index Astartes volumes and see what it says in there, but I'm fairly sure it states "pitch black" or something along those lines, and that other chapters are wary of dealing with them due to this "corruption".

"any respectable gamer" will likely look at the game and say "cool, big guns and big shoulder pads", not "oh shit, why aren't ultramarines black, because there are lots of black guys in africa and black guys are the best and if ultramarines are best and best is black, ultramarines must be black?"

Alternatively, you're saying that "other chapters are wary of dealing with african people because of the colour of their skin"

They might as just say that they all have big lips, massive noses, are lazy, and have massive schlongs, and then walk straight into the courts.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Captain Madrakan said:


> RIGHT.
> 
> Lets clarify a few things.
> 
> The caucasian race, although technologically gifted is one of the smallest races on the planet with south asians and east asians vastly outnumbering them.
> 
> Is it safe to assume that in the 41st millennium, after the unification wars, etc... the ENTIRE GALAXY is white?
> 
> Its ridiculous.
> 
> The Salamanders are a ******* people, or at least they were until Matt Ward turned them into coal black abominations.
> 
> Think about it. The space marine legions are all based on something:
> 
> Ultramarines: Greek / Roman
> World Eaters: Spartacus
> Night Lords: Apocalypse Now
> Raven Guard: The poem the Raven
> White Scars: Mongols
> Space Wolves: Scandinavian
> 
> I can do this all day.
> 
> Fact is that the Salamanders are based on ethnic Africans or at least any respectable gamer will understand this because frankly it's absurd to see them otherwise.
> 
> The lack of racial diversity in this game is sickening to a point of racial supremacy.


I think your point about current demographics is spot on. I also know that black hair and dark(er) skin are dominant genes, while blond/red hair and blue/green eyes are recessive genes in humans. One of the most recent studies on how far back we can find a common ancestor for anyone on the planet only had to go 2,000 - 2,500 years.

Taken altogether, this tells me the whole cultural/ethnicity constructs in 40K are pretty silly, outside of the 'Space Viking' or 'Dropship Khan' dynamic. By the time the colony ships started leaving in, what 15,000 AD, virtually everyone would look more or less racially homogenous. Unless racially anachronistic gene sculpting was an 'in' fashion at the time.

I would also note that official fluff has ALL the primarchs coming from a common modified gene sample, a la Deliverance Lost, which the Emperor then modified to provide each Primarch with their own set of abilities/traits. Sooooo... either the Emperor knew that the Khan was going to be exiled to a world populated by an asiatic colony ship, who knows how many thousands of years ago... or, it's artistic license on the part of GW authors and figure manufacturers trying to recognize some of the great warriors/armies of history. I lean to the latter.

On one point, I don't think it's too far fetched to see that local conditions have significantly effected physiology from an evolutionary standpoint. Fenris has a worldwide environment that mimics Scandanavia, so having a population with little melanin in the skin makes sense. Likewise, worlds with high solar radiation make sense to have populations with increasing amounts of melanin in their skin. Other facial features/characteristics, who knows?


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

hailene said:


> We don't know what the Emperor looks like. He can look like anything he wants to look like.


In Deliverance Lost, when the Emperor and Corax are in a psychic conference together, 


His father appeared less majestic, the light dimming beneath his skin, his face taking on the features of a normal man with brown eyes while long, dark hair flowed from his scalp.
"Is this your true face?' asked Corax.
"I have no such thing,' replied the Emperor. 'I have worn a million faces over the millennia, according to need or whim.'
'I remember this one,' said Corax, dimly recalling a dream he had glimpsed when overcome by his wounds in the crashing Thunderhawk. 'This was how you appeared to me when I was born within my pod.'
'Yes, it is strange that you should remember that,'


Considering that the Emperor was 'reincarnated' in the area of Anatolia in 8,000 BC, I think this description closely fits what men from that region would have looked like. However, once his psychic powers grew to the point of changing his looks, what point would understanding his original form provide, since he's no longer technically human... your point, I believe.


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## Magpie_Oz

Captain Madrakan said:


> Fact is that the Salamanders are based on ethnic Africans or at least any respectable gamer will understand this because frankly it's absurd to see them otherwise.
> 
> The lack of racial diversity in this game is sickening to a point of racial supremacy.


Ok looks like someone has a bone to pick for whatever reason.

Before going any further, if they are in fact ******* why is it that there are numerous references to the Salamanders having "onyx" skin that has becomes so due to the nature of the Nocturne environment and why is it that aspirants are often described as not having skin as dark as the Fire Born? 

There is no real indication of their racial ethnicity prior to that because race is unimportant in 40k, which I'd have said is the complete opposite of racist. 

That's the cool thing with FICTION you can make a cohort of White Supremacists or a Legion of the Multicultural. 

40k is only as racist as you choose to make it.


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## normtheunsavoury

Magpie_Oz said:


> Ok looks like someone has a bone to pick for whatever reason.
> 
> Before going any further, if they are in fact ******* why is it that there are numerous references to the Salamanders having "onyx" skin that has becomes so due to the nature of the Nocturne environment and why is it that aspirants are often described as not having skin as dark as the Fire Born?
> 
> There is no real indication of their racial ethnicity prior to that because race is unimportant in 40k, which I'd have said is the complete opposite of racist.
> 
> That's the cool thing with FICTION you can make a cohort of White Supremacists or a Legion of the Multicultural.
> 
> 40k is only as racist as you choose to make it.


Pretty much this :goodpost:

Just because the Ultramarines, for example, are based on the Romans doesn't mean that all Ultramarines resemble Romans, its just as likely that there are black Ultramarines or Dark Angels or Blood Angels. The limitations you choose to apply are down to you.


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## Protoss119

normtheunsavoury said:


> Just because the Ultramarines, for example, are based on the Romans doesn't mean that all Ultramarines resemble Romans, its just as likely that there are black Ultramarines or Dark Angels or Blood Angels.


Like so.










Okay, I'm going to hell for that one.


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## MontytheMighty

redmapa said:


> having them being 'mutated whites' is a bit stupid and bland imo..


Yes, that's the original question...are they mutated Caucasians or are they Negroids? 

I actually don't care either way, just curious. The art seems to show them as Caucasian-featured with very dark skin and ruby red eyes, which is fine with me

The only time I'd have a problem with race in 40K is when a faction is clearly based on a historical ethno-cultural group and for whatever reason, they choose to not to use the proper race. For instance, I'd have a problem with blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian White Scars and ********* Space Wolves. That would just be silly. 

Since the Sallies are not based on African culture, I'd be fine with ******* Sallies or Caucasian Sallies. Neither would be silly in my opinion. However, I would prefer a chapter based on the Zulus to be *******.


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