# Ascention of the Urizen



## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I am wondering if the Aurelian is planning his ascension into godhood further proving that his way was the right way ?

He is unswayed by leanings toward any existing Chaos god, and I would think that at some point, maybe thinking that since the strongest emotions became gods at some point maybe he could do the same.

I have been seeing that Chaos is home to many many gods (not sure if this has changed), and the big 4 just are the biggest, maybe he is planning how to consume/subsume one of them. 

The god of faith would be a good example, since both faith (not only in a higher being(humans, Eldar, Orks), but faith in duty (humans,eldar, tau) and many many more types of faith are just as powerful as lust, rage, anger etc.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I don't think that's possible due to the fact that now that Lorgar is a Daemon Prince he inevitably intertwined with the Chaos Gods' as a servant or rather a slave since they have ultimate say over their daemonic minions, even if one is not necessarily allied to one God. Not to mention that all of Lorgar's faith in the Chaos Gods would also mean he wouldn't have much ambition than he has now, since being a Daemon Primarch is pretty much one of the most powerful beings in the 40K universe anyways. As for the faith, the problem is even though HE has a lot of it he himself doesn't exactly get a lot of faith from his others, sure the Word Bearers definitely follow him fanatically but number that is very small compared to countless numbers of others who worship others, like the Emperor or the Chaos Gods. Hell, if any one was to become a Chaos God (or just God) it would be Emperor, 10, 000 years of people having faith as a GOD in him is something Lorgar could never hope to match.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Lorgar cant become a god. He's already at full Chaos potential being a Daemon prince. One can't simply 'become' a god. God's are just that, gods. God's have always existed, they didn't 'become' them. Slaanesh while different, was 'born' a god. He/She did not 'become' one. In fact, while we stipulate that the only being in the 40k universe that could become a god is the emperor, that is simply guesswork and theories. If he was to die, there is no concrete evidence he would even become a god.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Lorgar is said to support Chaos undivided, does that mean he venerated all 4 gods as individuals or Chaos itself as a singular entity?

Also it has not been said how he was elevated to Daemonhood, he and Peturabo are not followers of any of the 4 Chaos gods, and no singular god would elevate a Daemon Prince without having them be aligned to them, considering the competition between the four Gods, that would make no sense.


You said Slaanesh different, how so ?

The emotions that powered Slaanesh have always existed, they just reached a point that allowed him/her to take consciousness from the melange of emotion that makes up chaos to my knowledge.

This is speculation, not saying it is fact, but I would imagine that since he has NO loyalty to the big 4 whatsoever, and no one knows exactly who elavated him to Daemonhood that he would be able to pretty much do what he wants.

He took leave of his legion before after his first Crisis of faith, now after his change of faith and it's vindication he took another leave.

I would like to imagine that he is up to something.

And please don't say BL would not allow it, I know that, part of the fun of the background is that we can speculate on what would happen, since the current timeline in WH40K is kinda static.

As far as faith goes, faith is faith undirected. When ultramarines slay orcs they empower Khorn, just by spilling blood and being proud of their martial ability. You do no have to say "Blood for the Blood God", just the very act of spilling blood gives Khorn power so to speak.



> Every act of violence gives Khorne power, whether committed by his followers or by enemies


The Imperium gives Khorne ridiculous amounts of power, they don't do it willing to empower him, but that is just the way it is.

So faith, even directed at a Deity, or directed to faith in purity of duty, or faith in the truth of "the greater good" is still faith. And that should empower something in the warp.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

nestersan said:


> You said Slaanesh different, how so ?
> 
> The emotions that powered Slaanesh have always existed, they just reached a point that allowed him/her to take consciousness from the melange of emotion that makes up chaos to my knowledge.


exactly, the emotions were there (pain, pleasure, etc). but the God Slaanesh itself for all intensive purposes was not yet 'born'. Thus he/she did not exist for all time like the other 3 Chaos gods. Thats why Slaanesh is a special case. I have no idea what was feeding on these emotions prior to Slaanesh's birth. Or even if thats why Slaanesh was born? All the emotions being unconsumed condensing up within the warp till a God was born to devour them? Yeah... no idea.



nestersan said:


> So faith, even directed at a Deity, or directed to faith in purity of duty, or faith in the truth of "the greater good" is still faith. And that should empower something in the warp.


The warp is a ocean of emotions and feelings. Faith is not a emotion or a feeling. it is simply a 'belief in something without proof'. That is not something a God or warp creature can feed upon. Faith can bring about the feelings of love, pride, happiness. But there would be Daemons feeding on these emotions already. Daemon's an eternity old and far more powerful than Lorgar.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Bloodshed is not emotion either, spilling blood has a bunch of emotion attached to it, anger, joy, lust, envy, some times no emotion at all. Yet the act itself is what powers Khorn.

So they seem to feed off more than emotion.

Cunning is not emotion either, and neither is knowledge, or decay but those aspects empower respective gods.

I am sure I read that there was a bunch more gods, and that the big 4 were strongest of them all, if so then is a possiblity that some event can happen in future to tip the balance.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

you have some good points there. Might need to look up what Chaos gods feed on, emotions or souls, or both. im confused. 

Back to Lorgar... he still cant become a god. No mortal can.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> Back to Lorgar... he still cant become a god. No mortal can.


Well, from what I gather from some of the fluff concerning Ahriman, there is supposedly a means to turn yourself into a warp god or something equivalent, but it's being guarded in the Black Library of Chaos.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> Back to Lorgar... he still cant become a god. No mortal can.


What about the corpse god? The carrion emperor? Surely he has more in common with mortals than the gods.

Daemon princes are demi gods anyway, they just don't go overboard in saying their gods as the 4 main gods didlike that attitude, and they inevitably punish the arrogant prince


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't see the physical spilling of blood to be particularly important to Khorne, rather it is the storm of emotion that surrounds one who has given themselves to Khorne. Especially Beserkers, who are full of the purest hate, the type of emotion that Khorne particularly feeds on. Look at the act of prayer for many RL religions; it's not the physical act of bowing, or kneeling, or swaying that is important. It is what is going on in the mind of the pray-er is the important thing.
That's what chaos worship all boils down to- the emotion raised in an organism going on to feed the chaos god, via the mechanism of an act that causes that emotion. Or something like that.
The closest the Emperor gets to mortals is that he had the physical form of a human. After that, no dice.

GFP
GFP


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

yep its the emotions that come from bloodshed, the hate, the rage. it's the same for nurgle and decay, he doesnt feed on decay he feeds on the anquish, pain the suffering and the strong emotions of those wanting to survive. 
I dont think its possible for lorgar to ascend any further because i think been a daemon prince is probably the highest form of daemon a mortol can become and the fact that lorgar is empowered by the choas gods themselves and i could easily see them stripping lorgar of daemonhood for trying to become a god and going against the big 4.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> Lorgar cant become a god. He's already at full Chaos potential being a Daemon prince. One can't simply 'become' a god. God's are just that, gods. God's have always existed, they didn't 'become' them. Slaanesh while different, was 'born' a god. He/She did not 'become' one.





Brother Subtle said:


> Back to Lorgar... he still cant become a god. No mortal can.


I disagree there _Subtle_. Daemons can become gods of a sort, if they become powerful enough they can even form their own realms within the warp. Daemons themselves can gain a powerbase of souls, worship and emotion from an exclusive band of followers - which essentially makes them a minor god in and of themselves.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

It says specificaly that ANY act of violence that spills blood empowers him, enemies and allies alike.

Everyone empowers Khorne, human, orc, eldar. Everything that spills the blood of another being. Not every act of violence has hatred, and rage associated with it, yet theose acts do empower Khorn still.

So followers of Slaanesh who fight and kill in ecstacy would also empower him Khorn when taking life, even while Slaanesh is empowered as well by the feelings of his/her devotees.

I am disagreeing about just emotions, I think they are also gods of things, like how Ork Gods are the embodiment of Cunning and Strength.



> Ork *traits *and emotions have a reflection in the warp the same as the traits and emotions of Humans and Eldar do. These Ork *traits *manifest in the form of the strong, belligerent, and indestructible Ork gods Gork and Mork. The difference between the two gods is very subtle, Gork being brutal but cunning while Mork is cunning but brutal.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> exactly, the emotions were there (pain, pleasure, etc). but the God Slaanesh itself for all intensive purposes was not yet 'born'. Thus he/she did not exist for all time like the other 3 Chaos gods. Thats why Slaanesh is a special case..


Actually, Slaanesh was always there. And was never there. 

The last sentence on the page about the birth of Slaanesh on page 7.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

the power of a god is measured by the numbers of his faithfull servants. more believers, more power for him. no believers? tough luck! so Lorgar could become a chaos god if he had enough faith from his legion, or cultists.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I tend to believe that there is only actually one chaos entity of which big four are simply different stronger aspects. I don't think this precludes different aspects being in opposition to each other.

Regardless of this, take the Emperor. If he had a few billion followers i would expect a manifestation of the God Emperor in the warp, but i don't think that means that the Emperor ascends to godhood, but merely that an idealistic version of the Emperor forms in the warp. To follow this to it's ultimate conclusion, the Emperor on the Golden Throne does not need to be alive as long as the average imperial citizen believes in him he would exist as a warp entity.

The warp is a strange place, but people (e.g. chaos space marines) and warp entities (daemons) can live there. Whilst certain individuals/creatures can wield amazing power in the warp I don't think a daemon prince or any other entity in the warp can actually become a god.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

increaso said:


> The warp is a strange place, but people (e.g. chaos space marines) and warp entities (daemons) can live there.


CSMs don't live in the warp, they live in the Eye or the Maelstrom, which are areas of warp-realspace overlap. They would die instantly like any other material being if exposed to the warp proper. Daemons have no such problems, thus proving the ultimate superiority of Chaos.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

actually then can live in the warp maybe not for along time but they can, look at the word bearers novel, should be the first one, were it explains something along the lines of them been able to traveling the warp with out the gellar fields because of favor of chaos or something along those lines, even daemons are subservient to the will of a chaos marine lord with enough power, but there would be a limit to that power, like there would be a limit to lorgar ascending any further.

p.s yay 500th post


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree there _Subtle_. Daemons can become gods of a sort, if they become powerful enough they can even form their own realms within the warp. Daemons themselves can gain a powerbase of souls, worship and emotion from an exclusive band of followers - which essentially makes them a minor god in and of themselves.


This is true, but at any stage of this ascention, if a so called daemon/daemon prince pissed off a particular god. Said god could simply strip them of their powers and or simply unmake them into nothingness. Such is the power a god of the warp wields over his minions. I agree daemons can become very powerful, but thats all they would be, a very powerful daemon. Not a god. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Daemons themselves can gain a powerbase of souls, worship and emotion from an exclusive band of followers - which essentially makes them a minor god in and of themselves.


Sounds like the type of false gods the great crusade was stamping out all across the galaxy. Just because your followers believe you to be a god doesn't make you a god.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> This is true, but at any stage of this ascention, if a so called daemon/daemon prince pissed off a particular god. Said god could simply strip them of their powers and or simply unmake them into nothingness. Such is the power a god of the warp wields over his minions. I agree daemons can become very powerful, but thats all they would be, a very powerful daemon. Not a god.


Yeah, look at Angra Mainyu. He was elevated to the rank of daemon prince but when he fell out of the chaos gods' favour he got turned into chaos spawn.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> I agree daemons can become very powerful, but thats all they would be, a very powerful daemon. Not a god.


Then we have differing definitions of the term 'god' in the 40k universe.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I think Gods like Daemons have a tough time of it - if a being becomes a god then you have to survive - if the other gods destroy you like the chaos gods destroying the Eldar gods then you dont cut the mustard. So if humanity worshiped a God it would be fine, unless he got destroyed. Gods are the top of the food chain in a sentient universe it must be a tough role, you have to be able to survive amongst the other gods.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Then we have differing definitions of the term 'god' in the 40k universe.


This is probably the thing.

The use of the word 'god' can be interpreted widely or narrowly.

I would say that the chaos gods are conscious but not. They have realms but are also the realm. I consider the actuals chaos gods to be abstract from reality and exist only in the warp. This is my quite narrow interpretation.

The daemons also do not have a corporeal form in the warp but i consider them to be 'entities' with individual personalities and intelligence that would 
continue to exist independant of their patron god, but maybe the would not be born without the emotion that allows their patron god to exist.

[If you have guessed, i haven't completely formulated my stance]

On the other hand, you can argue that any entity that is worshipped and gains power from that worship is a god. Under that interpretation the Emperor could become a god (distinguished from my argument that the God Emperor is not the Mortal Emperor), daemons can be gods and daemon princes of mortal origin can be gods.

Either way, it's all good.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Then we have differing definitions of the term 'god' in the 40k universe.


This is why your one of my fav posters on here, because we have such good discussions! .

i kind of understand where your coming from, with regards to a daemon becoming so powerful he is considered a god within his own right. but i guess i consider a gods power so much more than that, in particular the Chaos Gods. In the 40K universe, from what ive read/discussed with others. 40K gods are;

1. Born (such as Slaanesh) or have just always been. I know of no current 40K gods that started out as deamons and then 'became' a god. But as a stout man of science i cant rule out that this could not happen, i just don't see it as very plausible going of evidence so far.

2. Able to create daemons, promote mortals to daemons/daemon princes. And vice versa, strip them back to chaos spawn as they see fit. A daemon, no matter how powerful cannot simply 'create' another daemon prince. Only the gods have that power. 

3. The gods have their own realms within the warp, palaces of pain and never ending horizons of suffering and misery. Daemons stalk these realms and even walk within the walls of the gods palaces. but they cannot create their own. That is beyond their power. Why? because they are not a god. Yes some daemons, get to forge their own worlds within the Eye of Terror. but this is pale in comparison to the power of a god. And this power to forge their own worlds is blessed to them by a god in the first place.

4. A daemon serves the purpose of its god master, whether they think they are or not (example Tzeentch). 

This is the kind of picture i see in my head when i compare dameons and god in the 40K universe. its my opinion and i might be wrong, but this is the way i see it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Subtle said:


> This is why your one of my fav posters on here, because we have such good discussions!


Thanks. 



Brother Subtle said:


> 1. Born (such as Slaanesh) or have just always been.


That doesn't negate the possibility of powerful daemons being labelled 'gods' though.

And as for 'becoming' a god, well we have the precedence of Amnaich the Golden (a Keeper of Secrets), if whose ritual would have succeeded was said to have become a god. There is also Ahriman who is said will become a god if he accesses the Black Library etc.



Brother Subtle said:


> 2. Able to create daemons, promote mortals to daemons/daemon princes. And vice versa, strip them back to chaos spawn as they see fit. A daemon, no matter how powerful cannot simply 'create' another daemon prince. Only the gods have that power.
> 
> 3. The gods have their own realms within the warp, palaces of pain and never ending horizons of suffering and misery. Daemons stalk these realms and even walk within the walls of the gods palaces. but they cannot create their own. That is beyond their power. Why? because they are not a god. Yes some daemons, get to forge their own worlds within the Eye of Terror. but this is pale in comparison to the power of a god. And this power to forge their own worlds is blessed to them by a god in the first place.


I'll tackle both these points with the following quote:

"...It is also in the Formless Wastes that other powers create their abodes - the provinces of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes grown powerful enough to instil a measure of control over their surroundings... Some appearing for only an instant, others almost as old as the Great Powers... Each embodies the whimsy of its creator... These might even be populated by their own short-lived daemons." - _Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th ed, Page 9_.

So not only can powerful Great Daemons and Daemon Princes instil their own measure of control within the warp and create their own realms, but they can also muster the strength to create their own daemons aswell.



Brother Subtle said:


> 4. A daemon serves the purpose of its god master, whether they think they are or not (example Tzeentch).


Its plausable that their are exceptions.

But as you said, those four points you put forward are your criteria for designating a 'god', but the beauty is that the term is totally ambiguous.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That doesn't negate the possibility of powerful daemons being labelled 'gods' though.


But isnt being 'labeled' a god and actually 'being' a god two different things?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And as for 'becoming' a god, well we have the precedence of Amnaich the Golden (a Keeper of Secrets), if whose ritual would have succeeded was said to have become a god. There is also Ahriman who is said will become a god if he accesses the Black Library etc.


'was said to' being my key argument here. There's as much chance of them not becoming gods after completing these acts as there is them becoming gods.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'll tackle both these points with the following quote:
> 
> "...It is also in the Formless Wastes that other powers create their abodes - the provinces of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes grown powerful enough to instil a measure of control over their surroundings... Some appearing for only an instant, others almost as old as the Great Powers... Each embodies the whimsy of its creator... These might even be populated by their own short-lived daemons." - _Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th ed, Page 9_.
> 
> So not only can powerful Great Daemons and Daemon Princes instil their own measure of control within the warp and create their own realms, but they can also muster the strength to create their own daemons aswell.


i did not know this, point taken! ill withdrawn my argument on powerful daemons not being able to create their own daemons.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its plausable that their are exceptions.
> 
> But as you said, those four points you put forward are your criteria for designating a 'god', but the beauty is that the term is totally ambiguous.


i know, these opinions are totally my own and open to my interpretation. Until 40K boffin's lay down some official cannon on what constitutes a god and an uber daemon. We'll never be quite 100%!


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