# Ding, ding - GW starts legal action against Chapterhouse



## the.alleycat.uk

So, looks like GW have started legal proceedings against Chapterhouse Studios. 

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/illinois/ilndce/1:2010cv08103/250791/


Not particularly interesting in and of itself; except that I remembered this thread:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57352

Guess we'll see how the various statements and opinions come out in reality...


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## Azkaellon

the.alleycat.uk said:


> So, looks like GW have started legal proceedings against Chapterhouse Studios.
> 
> http://dockets.justia.com/docket/illinois/ilndce/1:2010cv08103/250791/
> 
> 
> Not particularly interesting in and of itself; except that I remembered this thread:
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57352
> 
> Guess we'll see how the various statements and opinions come out in reality...


I hate to say it but who didn't see this coming?


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## gen.ahab

GW won't win this, but they can push it out long enough to royally fuck GW. Fucking twats.


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## TheKingElessar

gen.ahab said:


> GW won't win this, but they can push it out long enough to royally fuck GW. Fucking twats.


Kidding, right?

The disclaimer on CHS is a year out of date, and features under half of the named copyrights on the site, pictures of actual GW products are shown in advertising theirs, and they are based heavily on GW's IP.

When it was 'drake or dragon cloaks, armoured pads, shields' etc they were fine. You call something 'Space Wolf' or 'Soul Drinker' or 'Iron Hands' then you deserve to be bent over and royally rogered for your stupidity.

Chapterhouse is going under, and good riddance - they deserve this for 1st class moronicism.


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## Azkaellon

gen.ahab said:


> GW won't win this, but they can push it out long enough to royally fuck GW. Fucking twats.



Games workshop will win this. The Chapterhouse guy has used the names "space wolves" and so on on his products which basically bent him over and put a lead pipe up his ass. Not to mention his Rhino doors are a rip off of the forge world versions......Ill be honest i like the Chapterhouse stuff but they pushed the Envelope a little to far with this stuff

Example One.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=2

Example two.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=34

Yup.....no copying there.......noneee at all.....:security:


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## tu_shan82

Not surprised one bit.


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## LukeValantine

Are they still able to sell their goods till the legal proceedings are over?


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## TheKingElessar

LukeValantine said:


> Are they still able to sell their goods till the legal proceedings are over?


As far as I know. Option to buy is there, but likely their manufacturing is on hold. Try as soon as, because they will be gone very soon.


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## Son of mortarion

As far as i am aware, all that have tried what chapterhouse has have gone down in flames, a lot of their product is meh quality reproductions of GW parts/models. 

Hopwfule gw will see that there is a demand for variety, and will adjust their molds.


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## gen.ahab

(looks at the pages) :shok: Fuck, yeah they are boned.


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## Azkaellon

gen.ahab said:


> (looks at the pages) :shok: Fuck, yeah they are boned.


Yup no one said they where smart. Then again.....There price's where pretty high to so im not sad to see them go!

(everyone trys to gouge us pre-heresy players!)


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## Master WootWoot

View attachment 9900

Chapterhouse had some cool things but GW stuff are better quality, but with less variety.


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## bitsandkits

Looks like GW gave them enough rope and chapterhouse did the rest, not surprised, was never impressed with the quality of the products and they skated far too long on the thin ice of IP for there own good, plenty of other GW pretenders out in the wargame world currently not poking the GW legal department with a shitty stick.


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## Jezlad

chapterhousestudios said:


> GW can say what it does not like people to do all it wants, till the cows come home, on the "IP Policy" page.
> 
> This is not legal law in any way. They dont want someone making conversion kits that fit on the models they make. They cannot stop anyone legally doing that as long as they are not recasting.
> 
> Also I can say "Salamander Land Raider kit", none of those words are trademarked or copyrighted to GW.
> 
> People need to realize that the GW Policy page is a weak attempt to scare off uneducated consumers, those that do not want to pay for the legal education that will stear you in the correct direction.
> 
> Also, the last time I checked there is not any law for making components for a particular companies products or even mentioning and saying they are made to fit or be used on that product.
> 
> Nick
> 
> P.S. Thanks Jez for the moral support


I guess now we see how wrong (or right) they were. Its a case of getting away with something once then pushing it a bit more, then a bit more until you're clearly taking the piss.

All I can say is they provide a decent enough set of models to enhance and give our armies a little extra diversity. 

Anyone that holds that against them is..well - a dickhead?

Good luck to them. 

pst... when it comes to making conversion parts Chapterhouse we need to talk about "Rogue Planet" :wink:


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## bitsandkits

I cant see GW going after them if they dont have a 100% solid case, I dont think GW would risk the time,money and resources to go after chapterhouse in the US court system if they were not certain of the outcome.

Looking at chapterhouse objectively, i dont think they do provide a decent enough set of models, most of what they produce is amature quality,i have seen better sculpted stuff on heresy, i have yet to see anything in there range i would like on my models, which considering they are supposed to be filling the gaps of GW range and my bits fetish its pretty poor, but on the positive side they are providing gamers with some easy to use ready to go options to fill those gaps, even if they are not up to "GW standard".

As they said in there post its not illegal to make bits to convert GW models, the law gets shitty when you try and pass your stuff off as another companies product or if the line between two product ranges blurs to a point its not easy to tell the two producers apart, Chapterhouse does not do enough to make potential customers aware that its products are not GW products in my opinion, yes they have disclaimers and stuff but that may not be enough for GW Legal and it may not be enough for the courts.Plenty of other companies do minis and bits for use with GW systems and models but they also sell the models on there own merit and on the companies own reputation and do very nicely and dont suffer GW's wrath, so Chapterhouse must have stepped over some line or ignored requests to change its site and methods or GW wouldnt be taking them to task. 

If GW win i cant see chapterhouse staying in business, costs and damages etc will sting


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## notsoevil

I really like some of the bits (especially the gas mask heads), but I can't believe they got away with this for so long.


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## The Son of Horus

It's a shame. Sort of. I mean, they had a good run. And they make a good product. But right or wrong, GW has more money to piss away suing somebody for this sort of thing than a small company like Chapterhouse possibly can-- even if GW doesn't win any proceedings, they can bankrupt Chapterhouse in the process. And they wouldn't bother if they didn't think they had a strong case to begin with as it stands anyway. 

Certainly, the standard for this sort of stuff in the US is what "a reasonable person" thinks. And we can all agree that they're clearly making components specifically for Games Workshop's models. That could be viewed as violating the implicit copyright of an artistic product as the models are designed first as a single sculpture.


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## chapterhousestudios

It really surprises me at the naivety of some of the posters on this board.

Some facts I feel safe to post even during the legal proceedings.

All of those art graphics on that page someone pointed out, are all 100% player made banners for a computer game. So they are not any property of GWs, we even have permission to use them.

The next thing, and "bitsandkits" seems to have had it out for my company forever (who knows why), any company can be sued for ANYTHING. Regardless of the chances of winning. Only 10% of cases go to trial, most are settled. For you to think that GW would only go to court if they knew they had a 100% solid case, well it shows you do not know much about the legal system. Most of the time the large companies know they wont win and hope the smaller companies say uncle financially first..

If we do not settle this before trial, and it does proceed to trial in front of a judge, I have no doubt that GW would lose. There is so much legal precedent for third party components as well as using trademarks to describe the use of products.

Oh yeah, I doubt very much a Judge would rule in favor just because we forgot to update the date on our disclaimer on the bottom of our page (this is not even mentioned in the case file).

Jezlad, thanks for the kind words, and yeah, do tell about your game system.


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## Son of mortarion

The product istoo close for me to not think its a violation, but not good enough to make me want any of it. it's like the crap that came out in the late 90's that gw put a stop to. it looked like a cheap knock-off. Same with the chapterhouse stuff. The attitude of chapterhouse as expresed in the previous post is one that makes me less likely to want their product, rubs me the wrong way for some reason.


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## Doelago

Go GW, go! No, but seriously... The quality on the stuff those guys make is kind of crappy looking... And lets think of it in a business way:

Think about it as if you made miniatures. You have come up with a good setting, worked hard to make stuff work and all, and then some random guys come and start making the exactly same stuff... How would you react? 

I would throw a fucking sledgehammer at them...


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## Azkaellon

Doelago said:


> Go GW, go! No, but seriously... The quality on the stuff those guys make is kind of crappy looking... And lets think of it in a business way:
> 
> Think about it as if you made miniatures. You have come up with a good setting, worked hard to make stuff work and all, and then some random guys come and start making the exactly same stuff... How would you react?
> 
> I would throw a fucking sledgehammer at them...


Hmmm that's what happens when Gw gets mad....Except i think there new game is going to be called

"legalhammer" The game of suing people for fun!

At anyrate i agree chapterhouses post is pretty rude and they did rip off alot of stuff from gw!

Editlease ignore any randomness i currently have a fever of 101 and cant sleep.


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## Eleven

Son of mortarion said:


> The product istoo close for me to not think its a violation, but not good enough to make me want any of it. it's like the crap that came out in the late 90's that gw put a stop to. it looked like a cheap knock-off. Same with the chapterhouse stuff. The attitude of chapterhouse as expresed in the previous post is one that makes me less likely to want their product, rubs me the wrong way for some reason.


I think that GW will not win this fight. However, I 100% agree with what you said in the end here. The chapter guy should never be calling out potential customers as ignorant. Comes off very foul.


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## fynn

intresting that a lot of you say the CHS stuff is crap, now a guy at my club just ordered a load of it for his salamanders, and the finished product he recived looks to be very good, and another club member ordered some of the SW cloaks for her space wolfs, and they look good too.
Ive looked at there site, and will admit, some of the pics look a bit naff, but the end product ive seen in the fleash, (or should i say resin) is very good.
Out of intrest, how many of you that say there stuff is crap have actuly got any of there bits, or are you all just out right GW fanbois, that are against any indi company surplying bits you CANT get from GW becourse they cant be arsed to make it (too busy with power creep codex).
And this is not a flame attack against anyone


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## gen.ahab

Foul? It's just fucking stupid is what it is. Kind of similar to posting names of GW products/fiction like Warhamme, Warhammer 40k, space marine, chaos space marine, eldar, eldar farseer, eldar jetbike, eldar warlock, eldar seer council, tyranids and so on and so forth on your site and advertising your bits specifically for said products. Might as well tie a slaughtered pig to your ass and jump in a shark tank.

Does it matter if their product is craptastic? They fucked up on a never before seen scale.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyones business go under, but this could have been avoided.


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## Barnster

I image that CHS will argue that they are not explicitly copying current GW material. and are creating their own interpretation. Anything to do with extra bits starts to go abit iffy. 

Seriously look at Buzz lightyear and tell me hes not wearing GW style power armour, yet GW would never sue pixar because they know they would lose

GW copyrights everything (even the word Ultramarine, seriously its just a shade of blue!) 

GW should encourage and bring in companies who make kits which are not financially viable for them to make, akin to multiple forgeworlds. CHS may have been more niave than magnus, but its ideas are great. 

They are more than likely thoughly screwed though, simply because of the blantent flouting of the law. I had a look on their website and couldn't see a disclaimer their saying about the property of GW Lenton Nottingham Uk etc

And honestly I personally don't like their stuff, Its all abit OTT for my taste


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## Doelago

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Hmmm that's what happens when Gw gets mad....Except i think there new game is going to be called
> 
> "legalhammer" The game of suing people for fun!
> 
> At anyrate i agree chapterhouses post is pretty rude and they did rip off alot of stuff from gw!
> 
> Editlease ignore any randomness i currently have a fever of 101 and cant sleep.


Haha! :goodpost: 

But seriously, Chapter House fucked it up... And I actually hope they get crushed... [<--- No offense, but I dont like them...]


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## GrizBe

Well Chapterhouse just royally fucked up even more by commenting about the case in public on an internet forum. We all know that GW has people who trawl the websites for things like this and frankly... that was increadibly moronic to spout off that pretty much you didn't give a shit that you were ripping off GW's IP because you knew you'd win if a court case ever came up.

Now.. while I'm all for the 'little guy' being out there, trying to do interesting and unique things for the hobbyist... Cahpterhouse have blatently marked there stuff as GW products in an attempts to sell them. The affore mentioned Space Wolves, Salamander etc conversion kits, And by picturing them on GW products too. That its blatent IP theft. 

Also.. quite frankly, Chapeterhouse stuff is shit quality as has been mentioned numerous time, and seriously overpriced... I won't be sad to see them go. Its the companies like them out to rip off the gamer and make a buck off someone elses hard work that GW is really against here, not the creative spirit etc of other companies.

Pretty much Chapterhouse, you've put your gibblets in the lions mouth while poking his love spuds with a tazer here.


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## Stella Cadente

chapterhousestudios said:


> The next thing, and "bitsandkits" seems to have had it out for my company forever (who knows why)


PMS


Son of mortarion said:


> rubs me the wrong way for some reason.


does anything not rub you the wrong way?


Doelago said:


> Think about it as if you made miniatures. You have come up with a good setting, worked hard to make stuff work and all


what company you talking about?, that don't sound like GW


fynn said:


> intresting that a lot of you say the CHS stuff is crap,


fanboys.

GW likes picking on the little people, gives them a sense of superiority, they must eliminate anything that allows players to use imaginations and what might stop there loyal following of 14yr old sissy boys spending a few quid in there stores.

plus how can you take there copyright serious when they copyright an 8 pointed star, a symbol in existence long before GW, they just seem to lose the plot a little.


GrizBe said:


> Its the companies like them out to rip off the gamer and make a buck off someone elses hard work.


exactly like GW?, who have never had an original idea and charge in human souls.


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## MadCowCrazy

Just reading the document GW has sent to the court. I found this line hilarious :
Page 7
"and Games Workshop invests considerable sums each year in
marketing and promoting these brands and in developing new products under these brand names."

I have actually never seen an advertisement for any GW product outside of WD.

Here is the document if you want to take a look.

GW pretty much doesn't like anything CHS does and wants to receive money for every sale CHS has ever made, want all their stuff destroyed and all molds destroyed so no more can be made and their attorney fees paid by CHS and a large sum of money as compensation for unfair competition.
All in all they want to get all love love with CHS's bum...

Even though I dont like GW it seems they are right in their claims, then again I dont know US law and as mentioned in the case allot of the complaints have no copyright in the US.


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## GrizBe

That made me laugh too as my locl GW store manager takes great pride in the fact that GW only advertise their product through WD and their own website. lol. 

But yeah.. reading that document, basically it is because cahpterhouse have been marking and selling its products directly as bits using trademarked GW names and terms for items and even saying in the websites top banner 'Specializing in Custom Sculpts and Bits for Warhammer 40k and Fantasy, and making out that these are licenced GW products with some of its phrasing.

Yeah.. chapterhouse completely screwed themselves and haven't got a leg to stand on.


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## XxDreMisterxX

The guy who started this should fake his death and the company should go underground. lol xD Black Market 40k Material!


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## Stella Cadente

some of the things in that letter are silly "here are a list of names we don't own but later in this letter will claim we do, but we say them allot so its naughty of them to use them"
"the assault walker looks similar to some stuff we have made, we must sue, and while we are at it can we sue the US army for creating the M113, which looks similar to a rhino, those evil bastards, and can we sue people who make grey buildings, since they looks similar to stuff we claim to draw, lets sue slaughterhouses as well, because they use boltguns"


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## MadCowCrazy

Stella Cadente said:


> some of the things in that letter are silly "here are a list of names we don't own but later in this letter will claim we do, but we say them allot so its naughty of them to use them"
> "the assault walker looks similar to some stuff we have made, we must sue, and while we are at it can we sue the US army for creating the M113, which looks similar to a rhino, those evil bastards, and can we sue people who make grey buildings, since they looks similar to stuff we claim to draw, lets sue slaughterhouses as well, because they use boltguns"


QFT

I found some of the stuff in the suit really dumb as well. Some of the stuff seems more like marketing than anything else, I guess they are trying to sell the judges and jury some 40k&fantasy stuff while they are at it...


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## Bubblematrix

I think you slightly missed the tone of the document, the bit which seems to have hung CHS is not necessarily that the things _look_ like GW materials - its that CHS makes no attempts to say that they aren't and is constantly using GW copright material to justify their product - if they had made generic space man components then this claim would not have come, they pretty much jumped in feet first by using the GW copright names and trademarks to sell their product.

As for the advertising, yes its a bit single targetted but it cant be cheap to fund advertising in the form of a crap magazine with no external companies buying advertising space and keeping shops open just to have store fronts plastered with the GW logo! its unconventional but still advertising.

Whether they are right or wrong to do this is totally up to what a persons opinion is, but by the law I think GW legal have pretty much tied it up and imho CHS might as well have written the letter themselves as they did little to avoid this.

Whether it sticks? well I am betting on yes, assuming its not settled out of court - but I would find it highly unlikely that GW will want that option.


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## Barnster

CHS would not settle out of court, based on what they wrote here they are arrogant in their belief that they have done nothing wrong

All of it could have been solved by the use of a disclaimer or a rename.....

Look at Maximini for a good use of a rename


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## Oldenhaller

i get the impression that chapterhouse may be the thin end of the wedge. if it's not settled out of court then it opens the way for other cases with the miniatures being based on the likeness. I expect GW legal will have been waiting for something fairly cut and dried to start the ball rolling.

~O


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## Creon

1) GW can keep them in court for years, draining their money even if Chapterhouse is correct in it's interpretation of IP law. Look at DemonBlade minatures. They were driven out of business by GW.

2) Looking at the website, they referred to their "Doom of Malant'ai" miniature with a photograph of a NON-GW miniature. That would indicate to me they've gotten more sloppy with avoiding IP issues.


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## chapterhousestudios

I do have a question not related to the case...

Many of you say our stuff is low quality and crap. Have you ever seen or used our items? I am very surprised by this, as I have emails from customers saying the quality is better or in line with other companies, but I have not seen any saying otherwise (and I would give a refund if this were so).

Seems sort of dicky to judge a product if you have never seen it in person vs. a hard to judge electronic photo.


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## Oldenhaller

I fear that there may be a perception which the painting has caused. Looking at the unpainted resin a lot of it looks great, however some of the paint jobs make things look as if they've been sculpted badly.

~O


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## hungryugolino

I've seen their stuff, and I'm not impressed. I wouldn't use their shoulderpads, their design choices for things like the thunderhammer leave much to be desired, and things like the PH Rhino doors really could do with some more polish for their pricing.

To sum things up, Games Workshop is crying about intellectual property and wanting everything short of a partridge in a pear tree, Chapterhouse studios hasn't got the sense to shut up and wait for things to blow over, and it's obvious who's going to get steamrolled.

That sound about right?


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## Dohouse

chapterhousestudios said:


> I do have a question not related to the case...
> 
> Many of you say our stuff is low quality and crap. Have you ever seen or used our items? I am very surprised by this, as I have emails from customers saying the quality is better or in line with other companies, but I have not seen any saying otherwise (and I would give a refund if this were so).
> 
> Seems sort of dicky to judge a product if you have never seen it in person vs. a hard to judge electronic photo.


Seriously? :shok:

If this is the case then it sounds like you are at fault for not posting better pictures of your product. That is the whole point of advertising, to present a realistic representation of your product that will entice people to part with their hard earned cash. You can't blame people for thinking they are crap sculpts if you are not presenting them properly. If they are better than people think then post better pictures. 

That new tyranid sculpt for example looks atrocious!


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## GrizBe

I've seen the stuff in person... and yup, its crap. Its worse then some of the bog standard starter box crap the GW put out with 2nd edition of 40k like over 15 years ago now.


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## TheKingElessar

I had a good look at the catalogue yesterday...some of th bits (ie, AdMech shoulderpad) are available in plastic anyway, most of the rest are of mediocre quality at best - not worth putting a metal piece on a plastic model, never mind the price.

This was easily avoidable - you brought it on yourselves, and you deserve it for your hubris.


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## MadCowCrazy

I bought some of those special genestealer heads and Im satisfied, looks allot better than the shit GW puts out at least. I would have preferred them in plastic or resin but we cant have everything can we.

I think the point of CHS is not to compete with GW but to provide a service GW are ignoring. If you dont like it then dont buy it, if you find something interesting then go ahead and do.

At the end of the day it all comes down to choice, use GW only and greenstuff your minis if you want a unique look, dont greenstuff and have an army that's identical to everyone elses and probably with the same paintjob.
OR
Buy some stuff from the different conversion makers out there and make something that's a little bit different.

CHS does just that, they provide some bits that GW dont and probably never will produce themselves.
I think it will be a shame if CHS goes under because it means even less variety in our hobby. GW should start making models for everything they create and provide a bits service before they start fucking with people who provide what they dont.

All I can do is wish CHS good luck in the fight against GW but I have a feeling GW will drag it out for as long as they can to financially ruin CHS.

I dont understand why so many of you hate CHS so much, if you dont like their stuff then that's your opinion but wanting them to go under just because you think that way is kinda ignorant to say the least, then again I dont like GW and will laugh the day they go under but I love the hobby any ways.


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## coalheartly

I feel sorry for CHS, but they did use GW names, and even say, "Conversion bits for Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy" They could have avoided this by simply going, Dragon scaled shoulder pads for Sci=Fi Knights, or Early Space Shoulder Pads, or Skull designs for Sci-Fi Tanks. Alot of the hate towards GW is because what they are doing is not morally right. Morals have nothing to do with this, its simply buisness.


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## boreas

Right on. I don't own their products and don't plan to. But the make _different_ stuff for the hobbyist and that in itself is good. You can like the products or not, but bashing the guy is not right.

GW is a piss-poor company that can't be bothered to release good rule regularly. It can't be bothered to fully release the models the make rules for. And after all of that, they dare sue people who would create complementary products???

Heck, if it wasn't for the unequaled backgroud they've built over the years and their near-monopoly on miniature gaming, GW would go under pretty quickly. 

If anything, I think I'll order something from Chapterhouse, just out of spite.

Phil


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## Azkaellon

boreas said:


> Right on. I don't own their products and don't plan to. But the make _different_ stuff for the hobbyist and that in itself is good. You can like the products or not, but bashing the guy is not right.
> 
> GW is a piss-poor company that can't be bothered to release good rule regularly. It can't be bothered to fully release the models the make rules for. And after all of that, they dare sue people who would create complementary products???
> 
> Heck, if it wasn't for the unequaled backgroud they've built over the years and their near-monopoly on miniature gaming, GW would go under pretty quickly.
> 
> If anything, I think I'll order something from Chapterhouse, just out of spite.
> 
> Phil


IF you hate GW so much why do you play there games?:fool:


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## normtheunsavoury

GW should make more conversion kits, if there is a gap in the market then someone is going to fill it and turn a profit. But, CHS have gone about it the wrong way. All they had to do was change a few names around and try their best to distance themselves from GW. 
I don't see anything wrong in what GW are doing, they are protecting their property.


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## boreas

Witch King of Angmar said:


> IF you hate GW so much why do you play there games?:fool:


Quite a few reasons: First, all my friends play. One guy tried to convert everyone to AT-43, but it didn't work (by then everyone had a few thousand points of armies). Second, as I've mentionned, they have a great background. The WH40k mythos is IMHO just as good as the Star Wars or the LOTR worlds. Third, they have a near monopoly on wargaming in the sense that if you want to play, most FLGS have mainly WFB or WH40k gamers.

All in all, they also have very very good kits and their rules are very... playable. Wh40k and WFB are good games. But, as a company and the way they take care of their customer, GW sucks big time.

That being said, CHS was clumsy in the way the used the GW ip...

Phil


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## GrizBe

I'm not knocking CHC for producing bits, or providing a service that GW didn't. I'm knocking them firstly for putting out poor quality, overpriced products, then secondly for arrogantly ripping off GW IP and directly calling it GW stuff. 

The product quality and pricing.. well, I guess thats a matter of personal feeling. I honestly think there is far better stuff out there for much cheaper, and if the quality was higher and the cost lower, then maybe I might be sorry to see them go.

But when your directly trying to sell low quality stuff as GW affiliated bits, then thats crossing a line, and to do it so arrogantly and claim you've done nothing wrong when its plain to see that you have... well, that just shows your a tool out to rip off the hobbyist rather then to give them things they don't have, soo good riddence.

All CHC had to do was rename the part differently, put up a disclaimer, and say they were for use with, rather then directly conversion parts specifically for Dark Eldar, Space Wolves etc. like Mantic and other companies do, and none of this would have happened. Its the sheer stupidity and arrogance of the matter then shows them for what they really are, people out just to make money rather then to provide a needed service to benefit the players.

Smite them with all you've got GW.


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## EmbraCraig

Well we all knew it was coming - I like what CH are trying to do, but they've possibly got a bit sloppy around the terminology that they've used on their site.

Then again, I probably fit squarely into Chapterhouse's target market - I like to play 40k, I've enough money to spend a bit extra on bits, but have no artistic ability what so ever. Seriously, just getting models presentably painted without it taking a year and a half to finish a squad is a stretch - sculpting is very much out of the question. I appreciate what they're doing - they offer options that aren't currently given by GW (if GW produced a tervigon kit, for example, I wouldn't even be looking at the Chapterhouse one).

Unfortunately for these small companies, IP and copyright law pretty much state that if you want to protect your IP, you need to do it actively - if you stop defending your IP from infringements you run the risk of it being regarded as being in common use, at which point you lose any ability to stop anyone from using it however they want. So GW will keep hammering anyone as soon as they think they can make a case.

We'll see how long they can keep this going for, but I can only imagine that GW can afford to keep this running for longer than they can. And if this court says that CH don't have a case to answer, I'm pretty sure they'll take it to another court, then another, then another.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Just had a look on the CHS website, and some of the stuff is pretty horrendous. On the other hand some of the stuff is completely gorgeous. I'm definitely considering grabbing some while I can.

As to GW, while I may like the hobby they've created, I fucking hate the company. If there was some way I could purchase their products without them making a profit, I would. But that's just cause I'm Australian.


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## Stella Cadente

chapterhousestudios said:


> Seems sort of dicky to judge a product if you have never seen it in person


fanboys require no reasons


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## Grins1878

Aye, GW are money grabbing swine. It's fair do's, they've spent ages building up the story and all that caper, but trying to sue CHS is just crap. Regardless of using the terms, you would have thought that a company making good aftermarket products would be good for GW's business as a whole, since they don't make the parts themselves.

You can't always go off the pics on websites as to what the end product is like, and I speak from experience of buying aftermarket parts for my orks. SOmetimes the pics look shabby on aftermarket sites, but the end products are far from it.

Have a butchers at some of my Flash Gitz *looks over shoulder to see if GW is going to sue me for saying that*, the only GW parts on them are the arms and the odd weapon. Why? Well look at the only flash git they released? For all their snazz and riches, they made some dick with a shotgun? How does that represent a rich arrogant ork?!

I hope GW realise they're being asshats and CHS carry on with what they're doing. If you don't like their stuff fair one, but don't just slag them off, they're making some ace parts for people who want to convert stuff and don't have any greenstuffing skills! *raises hand*

Get a grip GW you arrogant arse.


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## coalheartly

now, CHS has proven to be arrogant with that post, and i am not a blind fanboy, some of CHS work looks great, some....not so great, and i see the niche they are trying to fill but there are several other websites that fulfill the same niche without getting in trouble from GW legal. 

and honestly, some of you seem to bitter that your only cheering on CHS just to stick it to GW, which is childish.


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## Grins1878

I've seen them do it twice which have irritated me so far, to the Bloodbowl community and now to chs, they're like the school bully ;-)

And the start of your post seems far more childish...


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## gen.ahab

Thrice, they did the same thing to warhammer alliance. However, in all 3 cases, their lack of foresight brought that upon them. GW has the right to defend their IP. I disagree with their methods, but they have the right to do it.


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## Stella Cadente

Grins1878 said:


> Aye, GW are money grabbing swine. It's fair do's, they've spent ages building up the story and all that caper,


copying the background from fiction and changing names of characters and places to avoid breaching copyright/IP you mean.


Grins1878 said:


> you would have thought that a company making good aftermarket products would be good for GW's business as a whole, since they don't make the parts themselves.


you would think that, heck its what smaller companies like warlord and wizards do to earn more money on there products.


Grins1878 said:


> You can't always go off the pics on websites as to what the end product is like


yeah some GW pics are shit but the models.........*looks at stormraven one last time*.....actually forget that.


Grins1878 said:


> Get a grip GW you arrogant arse.


I doubt a company that claims pictures you take of the models you brought belong to them could ever get a grip, there living in the fantasy realm they copied and claim is theres.

I'm suprised they haven't jumped down mantics throat yet, for making models out of the same shade of plastic they do.


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## Grins1878

Stella Cadente said:


> I'm suprised they haven't jumped down mantics throat yet, for making models out of the same shade of plastic they do.


Give it time ;-)


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## the.alleycat.uk

Stella Cadente said:


> fanboys require no reasons


Though people who like minis may wish to buy good looking ones. If CHS is trying to suggest that the product looks better than it does on the site... well then get better pictures on the site. You can't really claim that it is unfair to judge a product on the information they've actually given.



Stella Cadente said:


> copying the background from fiction and changing names of characters and places to avoid breaching copyright/IP you mean.
> 
> I'm suprised they haven't jumped down mantics throat yet, for making models out of the same shade of plastic they do.



Please, I am eager to hear more of your opinion and would be fascinated to know what fiction has been copied as it may be enjoyable for me to read. I would love for you to expound upon this topic since it is a statement you have made several times but never added any information about what has been copied. [Apart from Tyranids/Alien and the whole Paradise Lost thing - though even those are more inspiration that copying.]

Ah, and Ronnie Renton [seemingly chief dude at Mantic] Was GW's UK sales director about 10 years ago so he knows the company pretty well. I suspect he will manage to be cute enough over any similarities to avoid trouble.


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## Creon

Mantic is safe, as Elves, Dwarves, Undead, and the like are not IP. They don't use GW words, images, or even the same shapes and armor. Their war machines and such are quite different in several points. They have a published game they're supporting. So they are probably all right at the moment.


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## Barnster

note matics use of kaos dwarves to aviod any connection with chaos dwarves


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## The Sullen One

Good for GW, why they didn't do it sooner I don't know.

To those berating GW, they've got nothing to be ashamed of. The fact is Chapterhouse stole their intellectual property, which means legally and morally GW are in the right.


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## Splog

Imagine you write your very own fantasy novel (or if you prefer just think of a novel, e.g. Harry Potter). It's a great success. You decide to bring out a line of toys. You create and start selling toys of the main characters. You don't get around to making toys for the secondary characters (yet?) due to laziness/evilness/budget/resources/perceived lack of interest in the market/would rather be doing other stuff/whatever.

Out in the market are some toys and such that could be used with your toys based on your story, for example "Generic Wizard A" and "Big Troll Doll". Fine. Whatever.

Some chap crafts their own version of your secondary characters for use at home. Fine. Whatever.

Someone sets up a company, makes toys based on your novel, and advertises them as such ("Bob the Guard of Madeupplace, complete with unique tattoos, and catchphrases from ThatNovel") and sells them to the public. Not so fine.

(It could be worse; the other company could be taking custom away from you, or even usurp your product, or heck write a sequel to your book).


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## Marneus Calgar

There are a few things that really interested me in that pdf file that was posted for instance this:



> 25. Games Workshop also has a large number of well-known unregistered trade
> marks (including names of armies, Chapters, and other products) including without limitation:
> “Adeptus Mechanicus”, “Alpha Legion”, “Soul Drinkers”, “Iron Snakes”, “Luna Wolves”, “Imperial Fist”, “Death Watch”, “Tervigon”, “Blood Ravens”, “Black Templars”, “Legion of the Damned”, “Salamanders”, “melta gun”, “Carnifex”, “Crimson Fists”, “Blood Angels”, “Death Watch”, “Celestial Lions”, “Eldar Farseer”, “Thousand Sons”, “Horus Heresy”, “Genestealer” “Assault Marines”, “Devastator Marines”, and “Tactical Marines”.


Now, "unregistered" doesn't that mean you can use them freely? Since they aren't actually a registered mark of GW?

Further into that document it lists the "Super Heavy Assault Walker" that tau thing that was posted. How can GW sue because it "resembles" some of their stuff... If I took a turd, and posted a picture of it on ratemypoo.com and it looked similar to a tyranid, would GW sue me?

This next part however, I can agree with:



> 34. Chapterhouse makes no secret of the fact that its products are derived from, inspired by, and copied from Games Workshop’s copyrighted works and, indeed, the banner at the top of each page of the Website describes its business as “Specializing in Custom Sculpts and Bits for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy”.


They shouldn't really put that, thats fair enough, it's just asking for trouble.

Again, the same goes for the next part:



> 38. Chapterhouse makes pervasive references to Games Workshop’s trademarks to identify its products (and adopts a distinctly British phrasing by use of the term “bits” to underscore the connection), including without limitation: “Vehicle Accessory Kits for Space Marines”, “Imperial Guard Conversion Bits”, “Assault Shoulder Pad for Space Marine with Number 7”, “Soul Drinker Bits”, “Salamander Bits”, and “Xenomorph Head Bits for Tyranid
> Gaunts”.


If they'd changed the name, I don't think they'd be in dispute.

I just don't get how you can sue someone because "it looks similar". However, I know nothing about the whole law thing. So, if I'm wrong, do tell...


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## Bubblematrix

Good to see a few people are reading the legal text, anyone that hasn't already will see that GW aren't just global stomping chapterhouse for everything they do - just the bits which they thought really overstepped the line.

The "unregistered" trademarks would be (I assume) a legal way of saying - these are associated with our business but as we dont have time/money/commitment to register every word we use we have not legally filed them as such. Not being a lawyer I do not know how much relevance "unregistered" trademarks are... any lawyers have more info?

@Splog - nice analogy

If you are about Chapterhouse, and only if it won't affect your legal proceedings, did you get one of the famous GW legal-slap-letters prior to this or did they throw a TSR? (to the younger gamers: target reference there, if you dont get it go ask an older gamer)


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## The Sullen One

@Marneus Calgar:

GW are sueing Chapterhouse based on infringement of copyright and intellectual property. Now no one is disputing that Chapterhouse marketed their stuff at 40K players. Therefore it isn't going to take GW's lawyers much effort to establish a connenction by referencing aesthetics.

Super Heavy Assault Walkers are a good example of this as you describe as that Tau thing that was posted. If people are finding it easy to perceive the SHAW as a Tau SHAW then the lawyers can use that in making their case.

Chapterhouse have had this coming for a long, long time.


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## Marneus Calgar

The Sullen One said:


> @Marneus Calgar:
> 
> GW are sueing Chapterhouse based on infringement of copyright and intellectual property. Now no one is disputing that Chapterhouse marketed their stuff at 40K players. Therefore it isn't going to take GW's lawyers much effort to establish a connenction by referencing aesthetics.
> 
> Super Heavy Assault Walkers are a good example of this as you describe as that Tau thing that was posted. If people are finding it easy to perceive the SHAW as a Tau SHAW then the lawyers can use that in making their case.
> 
> Chapterhouse have had this coming for a long, long time.


Yeah, they've had it coming for a long time, I'm not saying anything against that (thats what I was getting at with the whole naming thing).

I just think that saying it "looks" like something they make is a bit crap. Obviously, if it helps GW's case fair enough... 

Ah well, roll on the GW steamroller


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## The Sullen One

Marneus Calgar said:


> I just think that saying it "looks" like something they make is a bit crap. Obviously, if it helps GW's case fair enough...
> 
> Ah well, roll on the GW steamroller


The point there is that it's meant to look like something out of 40k. If Chapterhouse had done what Wargames Factory did with their sci-fi greatcoat troops then they wouldn't be in this mess.


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## bitsandkits

Wow alot of site editing has been going on over on the chapterhouse website today, what happened to this "strong" legal position ? and asking customers to donate to a legal battle fund ???? Does not sound like a confident position to me.
Just been reading the reactions elsewhere on other forums, not alot of support elsewhere either and alot of negative comments about the product quality mirroring the comments on this site.


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## TheKingElessar

I hope this ends quickly too. Last thing I want is GW being financially affected by this, because that slows down our shiny new model and Codex production.

Oh, right - but half the people in this thread are stupidly claiming they want to see GW go out of business, because wasting all their time and money on toy soldiers was a _good_ thing?


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## boreas

I don't want to see GW out of business. But if some entrepreneurial mind makes up for all the too common holes in Gw's range, great!

So, basically, you don't want GW's Soma production to be affected? No place for competition, however small?

Quite frankly, I'm waiting for Codex: DH.... For Codex: WH... For Codex: Necrons... For Codex: Tau. So GW be damned. Deliver the merchandise or give room for other companies. Seven, ten, twelve years between codices is unacceptable no matter what angle you're looking at. Same for models!

Phil


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## Djinn24

Splog said:


> Imagine you write your very own fantasy novel (or if you prefer just think of a novel, e.g. Harry Potter). It's a great success. You decide to bring out a line of toys. You create and start selling toys of the main characters. You don't get around to making toys for the secondary characters (yet?) due to laziness/evilness/budget/resources/perceived lack of interest in the market/would rather be doing other stuff/whatever.
> 
> Out in the market are some toys and such that could be used with your toys based on your story, for example "Generic Wizard A" and "Big Troll Doll". Fine. Whatever.
> 
> Some chap crafts their own version of your secondary characters for use at home. Fine. Whatever.
> 
> Someone sets up a company, makes toys based on your novel, and advertises them as such ("Bob the Guard of Madeupplace, complete with unique tattoos, and catchphrases from ThatNovel") and sells them to the public. Not so fine.
> 
> (It could be worse; the other company could be taking custom away from you, or even usurp your product, or heck write a sequel to your book).


Chapterhouse is making addons that do not exsist in the GW range (for the most part) and still require a GW kit to add on to. Your arguement is me making a Ford Cobra outright and selling it vs me making an aftermarket add on for said car.

Chapterhouse was ignorant in not making it clearer that they are an add on to the base model and are not stand alone themselves. Also they need to learn to take better pictures and actually design a website. The company looks fly by night and not all that professional.


----------



## StalkerZero

boreas said:


> I don't want to see GW out of business. But if some entrepreneurial mind makes up for all the too common holes in Gw's range, great!
> 
> So, basically, you don't want GW's Soma production to be affected? No place for competition, however small?
> 
> Quite frankly, I'm waiting for Codex: DH.... For Codex: WH... For Codex: Necrons... For Codex: Tau. So GW be damned. Deliver the merchandise or give room for other companies. Seven, ten, twelve years between codices is unacceptable no matter what angle you're looking at. Same for models!
> 
> Phil


I know this is slightly off topic but I really cannot believe GW playerbase lets them provide updates so slowly and put units in their books that don't even exist as a model. Part of the reason I chose my army over say Tyranids is every unit in my book has a figure. 

As for Chapterhouse they had to know it was coming. That was too specific and IP laws are too strict.

Good luck not losing the farm Chapterhouse. Sure I don't agree with what you sell but I can see why it was almost a necessary thing. GW doesn't provide options so outside companies see an opprotunity.


----------



## gen.ahab

bitsandkits said:


> Wow alot of site editing has been going on over on the chapterhouse website today, what happened to this "strong" legal position ? and asking customers to donate to a legal battle fund ???? Does not sound like a confident position to me.


:laugh: There goes that ship. However, they still haven't changed the damn "specializing in custom sculpts and bits for warhammer 40k and fantasy" line.


----------



## The Sullen One

boreas said:


> I don't want to see GW out of business. But if some entrepreneurial mind makes up for all the too common holes in Gw's range, great!
> 
> So, basically, you don't want GW's Soma production to be affected? No place for competition, however small?
> 
> Quite frankly, I'm waiting for Codex: DH.... For Codex: WH... For Codex: Necrons... For Codex: Tau. So GW be damned. Deliver the merchandise or give room for other companies. Seven, ten, twelve years between codices is unacceptable no matter what angle you're looking at. Same for models!
> 
> Phil


Why should they? They own the merchandising and intellectual property rights, so they can do what they like with them. This means there shouldn't be any room for companies like Chapterhouse to infringe their property rights. What Chapterhouse have done is no different to people who make and sell copied music or films. Its a criminal enterprise and GW are right to step down on it.



StalkerZero said:


> I know this is slightly off topic but I really cannot believe GW playerbase lets them provide updates so slowly and put units in their books that don't even exist as a model. Part of the reason I chose my army over say Tyranids is every unit in my book has a figure.
> 
> As for Chapterhouse they had to know it was coming. That was too specific and IP laws are too strict.
> 
> Good luck not losing the farm Chapterhouse. Sure I don't agree with what you sell but I can see why it was almost a necessary thing. GW doesn't provide options so outside companies see an opprotunity.


GW started doing this for two reasons. First they want their developers to be unfettered by modelling timetables, this way they can bring out second waves and keep people interested in certain product lines. Second, they like encouraging people to do conversions for certain units. After all there's never been a Wazdakka Gutsmek model and I'd be surprised if there ever is.


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## GrizBe

bitsandkits said:


> Wow alot of site editing has been going on over on the chapterhouse website today, what happened to this "strong" legal position ? and asking customers to donate to a legal battle fund ???? Does not sound like a confident position to me.


Thats kinda stuopid editing the page now as that just prooves guilt. The GW lawyers will have already made copies of the chapterhouse website in its previous state, and the courts will be able to access when the page was last modified. It just shows they know they haven't a leg to stand on and are deleting evidence to make themselves look innocent.

Chapterhouse are going down, its as simple as that.


As for Unregistered Trade Marks. Pretty much the law on them is the same as for registered trademarks. They don't have the same protection, but, if they are still assosiated with a product, the same laws apply to them. An unregistered Trademark is usually denoted by the familiar TM symbol next to it. Theres several acts and laws protecting them as unregistered trademarks are usually used in promotional or advertising campaigns.

For instance here in the UK, Marmites 'Love it or hate it'. Unilever (who own teh Marmite Trademark) sued the BNP for using it in one of their election add campaigns and won.


----------



## Bubblematrix

Before I read one more "it doesn't hurt games workshops sales because they dont make the parts anyway" comment, can I just say bollocks does it not.

For those who read, go and find the last statement to shareholders for GW, one thing which is plastered throughout as a thorn in GW side is that there are a finite number of GW buying people, and it expands very slowly. The majority of these people have a finite (varying from individual and over time) amount of money which they will choose to spend on 'gaming' products.
Most of these people will spend that money on _something_ (alot of this has to do with their target marketted groups, but that is a longer discussion) if conversion bits or alternative models did not exist then GW is more likely to get that money.

This is how GW *as a business* will be thinking, in addition to its IP defence, which if you don't get by now (its important) then stop reading and find a comic.
Chapterhouse quite entrepreneurially filled a gap it saw in the market, they did it *as a business* to make money, as _legal_ is an issue which only lawyers and whole lot of cash tends to actually determine, only once these kinds of cases are brought do we get the true direction the law takes.

If this goes in CHS favour then as said further up in this thread (cant find who exactly) you will see GW climb the courts until either CHS cant afford to see thier bet, or the courts get bored of the case and declare in the bigger fishes favour.
If by some magic fairyland way GW is defeated in all the claims then the floodgates open, 'space marine' models are made by a whole load of other companies, GW prices tumble and I would predict the company ceases trading after some long drawn out bad years.
The issue is that GW is pretty much built on its IP, if it looses it then there is no longer a company, this is why it defends it with such vigour, and when I say vigour I mean the very occassional legal slap and only to companies which actually start to impact its legal and financial dealings.


----------



## Stella Cadente

TheKingElessar said:


> I hope this ends quickly too. Last thing I want is GW being financially affected by this, because that slows down our shiny new model and Codex production.


I think charging £25 for 10 models will affect them more finacially than taking anyone to court.

although judging by how the letter is written as a giant advertisement it seems there atempting to pay the costs with models.


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## Djinn24

Bubble then they need to provide said services instead of leaving the consumers stranded. They kinda do with the forgeworld expansion but if they are worried about losing money then license a company to make this stuff like that have with Forgeworld. If I was GW I would be more irritated about the lack of professionalism in the above mentioned business then the fact that they are offering aftermarket items for my models.


----------



## Stormbrow II

> Thats kinda stuopid editing the page now as that just prooves guilt.


It actually doesn't. I can't remember for the life of remember what its called right now but it doesn't actually prove that CHS knew what they were doing was wrong. I'll have a root around when I get the chance.

Having seen the website before I'm not surprised that GW took the action and I reckon that GW will win too. CH have been using GW's IP to sell their stuff. If you have a look at other companies (Scibor, Micro Art et al) you'll see they don't sell 'Soul Drinkers' icons and vehicle bits but generic doors and shields that fit 28mm scale models perfectly. 

Sloppy really but with CH claiming that they've received solid legal advice and that they are willing to fight this might actually make it to a hearing rather than being settled. Or maybe not when CH sees how much it'll actually cost them to take the case.


----------



## Bubblematrix

djinn24 said:


> Bubble then they need to provide said services instead of leaving the consumers stranded. They kinda do with the forgeworld expansion but if they are worried about losing money then license a company to make this stuff like that have with Forgeworld.


Now that is somewhere I think GW really does not capitalise on its IP, if it actually granted licenses for these bits it would get money and would be defending its IP. I know it would only just pay for itself in running costs - but it would give the good will GW is so often accused of not having.


----------



## GrizBe

Actually thinking about it, I'm kinda surprised that they don't do that. Theres obviously some good sculptors out there, and the will to make bits for the models. Surely GW hiring them, or licencing them to make bits would solve alot of problems at once... but as mention, its probably the cost of doing so that they haven't done it.


----------



## The Sullen One

djinn24 said:


> Bubble then they need to provide said services instead of leaving the consumers stranded. They kinda do with the forgeworld expansion but if they are worried about losing money then license a company to make this stuff like that have with Forgeworld. If I was GW I would be more irritated about the lack of professionalism in the above mentioned business then the fact that they are offering aftermarket items for my models.


Would you? So someone's using your product to make money for themselves and all you'd care about was how professional they were about it? I find that hard to believe. The fact is that Chapterhouse used GW's lines to make money for themselves, with no talk of royalties or licences, which is plain wrong.



Bubblematrix said:


> Now that is somewhere I think GW really does not capitalise on its IP, if it actually granted licenses for these bits it would get money and would be defending its IP. I know it would only just pay for itself in running costs - but it would give the good will GW is so often accused of not having.


Why? GW provides its customers with a product and an area in which to use them. That's good will if ever I saw it.


----------



## bitsandkits

Bubblematrix said:


> Now that is somewhere I think GW really does not capitalise on its IP, if it actually granted licenses for these bits it would get money and would be defending its IP. I know it would only just pay for itself in running costs - but it would give the good will GW is so often accused of not having.


Sorry but i dont see the licensing as any viable option when GW has the ability to produce any and all bits to fill its codex gaps, plus a small business like chapterhouse wouldnt be able to fork out the required amount of money and cut of profits that would be needed to license GW IP even if that option was available, look at the amount of revenue licenses sold to relic give GW on a yearly basis. Plus lets not beat around the bush, if you licenses to third parties you would require those third parties to produce a product worthy of your company name and many of the chapter house products would not of sufficient quality for GW to allow its sale under its name.

Take the forgeworld space wolf rhino doors and compare them to the Chapterhouse ones, they are not even in the same league, also you have a conflict of interest right there in the same product.
Plus you also have the conflict of interest from other licensees such as relic, blood ravens is GW IP but relic have a serious vested interest in that chapter because of dawn of war, it wouldnt surprise me in the least that this trip to the courts wasnt promted by chapterhouses recent addition of blood raven shoulder pads in someway.

Chapterhouse started on the coat tails of heresy styled bits, which GW via FW have now released and not just shoulder pads, but the whole nine yards and they are far far better quality than any thing in the chapterhouse range, GW already do a massive selection of conversion parts in either plastic,metal and resin, If chapterhouse had stuck with filling gaps they might have been left alone, but they got greedy and decided they were going to do alternatives to stuff GW already have like there two very poor attempts at space wolf rhino kits, GW might benefit from the sale of a rhino but they are missing out on the revenue that player could have spent on the FW rhino door set, because an unlicensed company was using its IP without permission.

filling gaps in the market is one thing, offering an alternative product is also another thing but perfectly legal, offering an alternative product for something that exists using established IP without license or permission is wrong and will land you in the shit.


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## MadCowCrazy

GW wont last forever, once 3D printers become a household items I can see them going under pretty fast unless the change their current ways drastically.
I believe the future is in online services like that somewhat new game where you get a code you can enter into your computer with every box of models you buy.

3D printing is now available to anyone with some graphics knowledge and understanding of 3D. As I am myself a computer graphics designer in 3D I have been considering getting some custom models made. Just 2 years ago when I first thought about it the price would have been 100£ for 1 model, now when I checked up on it again last month the price has gone down to 20£. You might not be able to buy a 3D printer for cheap now but you can rent printing time from different companies out there (you pay for the time it takes, not really the material since thats dirt cheap).

I know GW uses 3D printers for their own fast prototyping as I had a long discussion with the designers at games day and also got to see them use the 3D sculpting pen.
What I dont understand is why they dont offer a bigger range of custom bits, creating a Ultramarine rhino door (as an example, dont comment on the use of the smurfs, imagine it as anything else instead) or any of the other chapters for that matter can be done in just a few hours. Have the door 3D printed and try it out on a model, if it fits and passes quality check then just make a mold and cast it as many times as the mold can take.

I can understand if they dont make aluminium molds and cast them in plastic since the molds costs so much.
I dont know where the bottleneck is in GWs workline but as it is it's taking way too long for them to release new products. At Gamesday I got the impression that every designer over at GW works on Fantasy, 40k and Lotr + whatever else they do.
They either need to get more designers, more plastic injection machines or whatever it is that is stopping them, alternatively they could license bits out to other manufacturers.

I think the problem is though that they cant release things in a way that is consistent and reliable. If they would have released every single new model for the DE release, and all those models in plastic Im sure everyone would agree that would have been a godsend. Having them update the rules every 6 months with balance changes making every unit desirable on top of this would please most DE players...but then what? No new Dark Eldar stuff until the next codex? Nothing to look forwards to? Where would this leave us????

Pretty much the exact same place we are right now except with all the units and with rules that makes everything desirable....

I was trying to make a point but realised GWs release schedule is way too slow so I couldnt make one that makes sense.

All in all I think GW has themselves to blame for companies out there that make alternative models for their games. Im sure there will always be companies like these but if GW had their own bits service (a good one) and produced more chapter specific heraldry allot of people wouldnt have to turn to 3rd party makers in the first place.

Bah, my head hurts from all this thinking... I need to go rest in my dark corner for a while...


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## normtheunsavoury

GW may well be responsible for the gaps in the market that CH are exploiting but they are not responsible for the exploitation. 
What CH have done is illegal, they did that themselves, no one held a gun to their heads. 
It is essentially the same as being in a pub and someone spills your pint, they are responsible for you losing some of your beer but they are not responsible for the punch in the ear some would dish out in response. 
GW may well do things we don't like but that does not give anyone the right to infringe on their IP as a result. Other companies seem to be clever enough to avoid the legal pitfalls that GW will exploit. 

Plenty of other companies exploit the gaps in the market that GW seems reluctant to fill but they do it in far more intelligent ways than CH have. 
CH have no one to blame for this than themselves.


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## Djinn24

If GW wants to get pissy about someone offering something they do not then its a simple fix, make it them damn selves. No if I made a kit for example a rhino and made nothing else for the rhino and someone else make a door kits (lets say FW does not exsist) but it requires the purchase of my kit and them adding their stuff to my item then there is no reason for me to be upset. They are filling in a place that I am not. If on the other hand I made door kits and they infringed on my IP then yes I would be mad. Chapterhouse has some unique products on their site that GW has not, ever, in the past offered us as consumers. On the other hand they do have items that take directly from their line. 

This lawsuit is about as stupid as GW suing someone over selling staticgrass products because they do as well. They need to target what is clearly in violation of their IP and leave the rest of the ship a lone. Or hell talk to the guy and work something out where he produces a line of product that they will not, and if they ever do (think baneblade here) he stops making it.

Sorry for the ramble, I feel like hell.


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## TheKingElessar

Stella Cadente said:


> I think charging £25 for 10 models will affect them more finacially than taking anyone to court.
> 
> although judging by how the letter is written as a giant advertisement it seems there atempting to pay the costs with models.


Bullshit.

1) Learn 2 Economicz - 
http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/2010/05/15/warfare-on-the-high-accountanseas/
http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/2010/05/25/business-101-or-the-whiteness-of-the-whale/
http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/2010/06/06/set-sail-for-the-high-accountanseas-again/

2) People buy these - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft?filter_reset=1
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_RENEGADES?filter_reset=1
...And that includes several £10 for ONE models, why the fuck would £25 for a whole squad be any different?

Games Workshop sells luxury items. People pay STUPID amounts of money for luxury items, no reason to assume GW has reached saturation point yet.

(Really? £40 for 3 buildings and a handful of Lego men, and you complain about the much higher quality more versatile GW product?)

Apologies for all the links - but it's much better than the wall o'text trying to condense that would have been, and external sources rather than quotation marks validate my sources.

EDIT: Djinn24 - No, afraid not.

If, say, a company made Thunderhawk Gunships in this world where FW doesn't exist, by the time GW got around to them, the market would be saturated, demand non-existent, and this other company would have taken away all of GW's business. In the past, GW has demonstrated a commitment to these 'Chapters' by releasing various upgrade sprues...these have a timetable to maximise demand, and that timescale, while not definitive, will eventually include (conditions permitting) ALL of the factions within the game. Allowing another company to actively produce such things materially damages the GW bottom line, even if that bottom line is from some unspecified point in the future.


----------



## The Sullen One

Going to back Elessar up here. GW release what they can when they can, the releases timed to anticipate demand.

In a universe like 40K players get ideas for new models or conversions all the time, far more than GW could cope with. So what they do instead is release models or conversion packs for their more popular ranges, whilst those of us with somewhat unusual ideas, such as making Deff Dredds out of Wraithlords, make do with converting our own.

This latter aspect helps to encourage variety and diversity amongst us hobbyists. Sure Chapterhouse exploited gaps in the market, but they did it in a way that is illegal. Period!


----------



## chapterhousestudios

Seriously, for people to say my company is doing something illegal, what is that judgement based on, or what information?

Nowhere on our site will you see copies of icons that GW created and owns. You all are saying the lion design on our pads is GW. BS, that was totally created by another customer. The same with the ruinic design on the pad labeled "shoulder pad for deathwatch marines" nowhere, and I mean nowhere did we take a GW icon or design or trademark and make a copy.

Anyone can make as many doors with wolf and icons on them as they want, the same goes for a dragon head (though it may not be the same icon, and I mean direct copy). This it entirely legal (even if GW claims it is not in a filing).

There is plenty of legal precedent for third-market parts, as well as use of trademark in describing those parts. Why is it some company can say "replacement muffler for a 1980 Ford Mustang" or "protective cover for Apple Ipod" without a license and not be sued? How is "shoulder pad for Space Marine" different (and to be fair we used more careful wording then that). Look up "Fair Use" and "Nominal Use" if you do not believe me.

I also have this article that I found a while back, it talks about the US courts and the defense based off of the "uses".

http://www.nmmlaw.com/pdf/highcourt.pdf

I think it is fine to form an opinion, but at least back it up with some factual information. If you hate my company, sure, ok, but at least back up your hate with good reason, ok?


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Stella Cadente said:


> I think charging £25 for 10 models will affect them more finacially than taking anyone to court.


£45 in Australia, because apparently it requires a £20 cost increase to ship stuff to us. That's the excuse a GW employee once gave me...


----------



## GrizBe

Wow.. your an idiot aren't you? What you were doing wasn't the 'These are x parts for use with x model', but 'These are x part of x model'.

To use your own example, theres for a difference between saying that something is a _replacement_ part for a ford mustang, and that the part _IS_ a ford mustang. 

You were doing the later, blatently marking your products as being specifically that part rather then an alternative, or for use as.

The fact is you've used registered trademarks to label your products as which is breaking the law. If your too blind to see what you've done is illegal, I hope GW take you for everything you've got.


----------



## The Sullen One

chapterhousestudios said:


> The same with the ruinic design on the pad labeled "shoulder pad for deathwatch marines" nowhere, and I mean nowhere did we take a GW icon or design or trademark and make a copy.


Deathwatch marines, shouldn't using that term indicate to you that you're implying that those shoulders are meant for Deathwatch Space Marines? That's infringement of copyright straight off, and if I were your lawyer I'd be advising not to admit things like this on the Internet.



chapterhousestudios;832127There is plenty of legal precedent for third-market parts said:


> http://www.nmmlaw.com/pdf/highcourt.pdf[/url]
> 
> I think it is fine to form an opinion, but at least back it up with some factual information. If you hate my company, sure, ok, but at least back up your hate with good reason, ok?


Ford aren't to going to sue anyone for making replacement parts for a Mustang because it's a car that's no longer in production, so there's no competiton between the guy making the part and Ford. 

You on the other hand are making parts for models that aren't yours in the first place and in still in production and development by Games Workshop, detracting from their profits. Personally I think what you did is wrong and that it's right that you'll pay for it under full penalty of law.

Ironically the real shame here is that you could have made a lot of money by marketing to a more general sci-fi wargaming audience rather than 40k players.


----------



## Jezlad

I bought an in car charger for my phone last week. Was it official? No. Did the creator get legal proceedings brought against them by HTC? No.

Last month I bought an unofficial PS3 pad....

Same situation?

There's plenty of precedence for 3rd company products in every industry and I wouldn't be 100% certain GW will win here. It all comes down to the bloke sat in the chair who isn't a GW fanboy.

GW told Fumbbl to close their site down last year. The owner removed a few words from their pages and ignored it. 

Time will tell.


----------



## Bubblematrix

djinn24 said:


> They need to target what is clearly in violation of their IP and leave the rest of the ship a lone.


If you read the document posted somewhere near the beginning of the thread you will see that that is exactly what GW is doing, they have at no point declared "we sue CHS because they are CHS and because of what they do" they have been pretty clear on the areas they are getting tetchy about.

And @chapterhouse

I think you need to be a little less defensive, people don't "hate your company" there are alot of quite objective comments in this thread, most people are saying they believe what you do is illegal, and many seem to have read around the subject and formed an opinion based on some gathered facts not just GW propaganda. The only people who seem to be emotive and are not trying to back up their opinions are those saying what you do is _not_-illegal in fact your last post was the first time I have seen something posted in evidence to try and argue sensibly why _you _should be in the right.

Interestingly the document you posted includes: 


> if the defendant shows that if used the designation not as a trademark identifying its products, but, instead, in a purely descriptive way-to wit, a fair use


No I am no lawyer, but would read that as saying that you could use trademarks in your spiel, but naming something using a trademark is still in contravention.

Furthermore, I would suggest that GWs corespondance evidence which will include people asking if these are official GW products (thick people I know) will be pretty good evidence to prove the 'likelihood of confusion' is high enough that the use of trademarks is in breach of law.

Jez, they have no real vested interest in those products though, PS3 make consoles to sell games - they are uber anal about game piracy as that is their cash crop.
HTC make phones, they sell phones in a pretty much throw away electronics world, they have no interest in spares, I would bet they woould shut their spares factories if they could. GW have quite a vested interest in mainting selling every bit of kit that they can, part of their problem is that they are in a small market and are one of the only players, this makes then nervous and vulnerable - never a good combo


----------



## Djinn24

I am to sick to continue this discussion right now, I guess I will have to wait and see which side wins.


----------



## Creon

I am using the "reasonable person" judge. Would a reasonable person think Chapterhouse is infringing on GW IP? I think yes. Would it be avoided by very minor tweaking of language? I think again yes. "Blackwatch Powered Armor Shoulder pads" instead of "Deathwatch Shoulder pads" would make it nearly impossible to even submit a suit. But since Chapterhouse opened the barn door with using copy written terms in their online advertising, they may be liable. I'm not a lawyer, I'm sure the company has them. Even if Chapterhouse comes out on top, GW had to file suit, to prove they're actively defending their IP.


----------



## Dohouse

chapterhousestudios said:


> I think it is fine to form an opinion, but at least back it up with some factual information. If you hate my company, sure, ok, but at least back up your hate with good reason, ok?


Because you are riding the shirt tails of GW, using their product descriptions to sell your own third rate version of their product under the pretence of being a third party part supplier. All you've done in my eyes is demonstrate a complete lack of imagination or talent to create your own product and cash in on someone else's.

At least companies like maximini or scibor have the common sense and decency to try and market their products independently of the GW IP and are genuinely making third party parts that can apply to a wide range of miniatures.

How you can describe your staff as "artists" is beyond me.


----------



## Marneus Calgar

Jezlad said:


> I bought an in car charger for my phone last week. Was it official? No. Did the creator get legal proceedings brought against them by HTC? No.
> 
> Last month I bought an unofficial PS3 pad....
> 
> Same situation?
> 
> There's plenty of precedence for 3rd company products in every industry and I wouldn't be 100% certain GW will win here. It all comes down to the bloke sat in the chair who isn't a GW fanboy.
> 
> GW told Fumbbl to close their site down last year. The owner removed a few words from their pages and ignored it.
> 
> Time will tell.


I agree with this...

Megablocks + Lego? Aren't they pretty much the same thing? Has either sued the other? No
My friends dad makes fibreglass roofs for VW vans, has he been sued? No...

I don't think GW will win this case... Entirely...


----------



## Dohouse

Lego did try suing megabloks. 

GW don't need to win in order to win.


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Sullen One said:


> Ford aren't to going to sue anyone for making replacement parts for a Mustang because it's a car that's no longer in production, so there's no competiton between the guy making the part and Ford.


yet on the same note GW close down websites that post rules to game systems they no longer support or rules they no longer print.
thats the same as making a part for a car no longer built.

but as said there are companies out there that allow all kinds of third party things to be made, even people as anal as sony allow third party support for pretty much all the items they make.

maybe GW should take a lesson from succesful companies.


TheKingElessar said:


> Bullshit.
> blah blah blah link link blah blah link.


of course its bullshit, if 1000 people suddenly stop buying GW's toys because they charge £25 then magic fairies mean GW hasn't actually lost any money at all, in fact they have gained money from these 1000 people.


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, in any event, they won't be missed. I'd take Maxmini over them any day, if only because their products actually look presentable. (Case in point, their steam knight helmets.)


----------



## The Sullen One

Stella Cadente said:


> maybe GW should take a lesson from succesful companies.


Games Workshop is a successful company Stella, that's why they're the number one wargaming and modelling company in the world. That's why all those painting in Wargames Illustrated are done with citadel paints.

Oh and they got that way by coming down like the proverbial tonne of bricks on companies and enterprises that infringed their intellectual property rights.


----------



## Stormbrow II

> I think it is fine to form an opinion, but at least back it up with some factual information. If you hate my company, sure, ok, but at least back up your hate with good reason, ok?


Using GW's IP to sell your stuff by saying its 'for use on this 40k model' has allegedly caused people to associate your product with GWs. Fair use is all well and good but using it to make money usually isn't.



U.S. Copyright Office said:


> Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:
> 
> 1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of *commercial nature* or is for nonprofit educational purposes
> 2. The nature of the copyrighted work
> 3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
> 4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work


Number 1 is the obvious one that would cause you problems while GW might well argue that your product had a negative effect on the value of their copyrighted work. Or not, I'm merely an interested bystander. And yes, I'm well aware that Intellectual Property consists of more than copyrighted work but the above was a good example of it.

For those that have been arguing about replacement parts for cars its not quite the same thing - the car companies are willing to have their cars modded because they have enough business sense to realise that they get free advertising from this and they are willing to let people mess around with their IP (copyright, trademarks et al.) because it helps to sell cars. GW have decided for better or worse to not allow other people and companies to use their IP in their products. 

I'm not agreeing with what GW is doing but I can understand why they have decided to. 

BTW, if you come onto forums with an attitude you'll quickly erode what goodwill you have with your customers and supporters. It might even come back to haunt you.



> Oh and they got that way by coming down like the proverbial tonne of bricks on companies and enterprises that infringed their intellectual property rights.


Didn't GW get lots of money from HR Giger in the 90's by counter-suing for IP infringement?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I don't know much about copyright, IP and all of that shit. I do know this though, when I worked at an aftermarket Jeep manufacturer we listed the shit that we made by Jeep's own nomenclature. CJ, YJ, TJ, XJ, ZJ, WJ, SJ, MJ, etc. To me when you say " I have a TJ. " that lets me know that you have a Jeep wrangler built from '97 to '06. We used the very codes that THEY created so that there was no confusion about what you were going to get parts for. So many people would tell me that they have a Cherokee. What kind? XJ, ZJ, WJ? (BTW ZJ and WJ are Grand Cherokees). 

Now I have never been to Chapterhouses site and probably won't as I need very little in regards to bits, but if they are using the words "Space Marines" I would think it was more for the clear definition of what you are buying the bits for. Are they selling knock off Rhinos? Are they selling knock off Scouts? I do not know and won't look as I am not real interested, but if this is GW being "Big Brother" that I do have a problem with.


----------



## Phil73805

chapterhousestudios said:


> I do have a question not related to the case...
> 
> Many of you say our stuff is low quality and crap. Have you ever seen or used our items? I am very surprised by this, as I have emails from customers saying the quality is better or in line with other companies, but I have not seen any saying otherwise (and I would give a refund if this were so).
> 
> Seems sort of dicky to judge a product if you have never seen it in person vs. a hard to judge electronic photo.


A friend of mine bought a number of your shoulder pads for his Deathwatch army. I hasten to add that they were shoulder pads for chapters that GW doesn't cater to but are in the fluff. They were of great quality, well sculpted and well moulded. Not sure what the whinging is about. Though I will say that the pics on the website often don't do justice to the actual product.

As far as the lawsuit goes I will say this. GW is *the* biggest tabletop wargames company in the world. So much so that they've gotten to a place that they don't have to be nice to their customers anymore. They can, and do, screw us with our pants/trousers on and we take it and come back for more. And, they know it.

Privateer Press, on the other hand, are much nicer to their customers. They keep them well in the loop on upcoming changes as well as doing wide ranging customer playtesting which gives their gamers a real say in the rules and structure of a game into which they've invested a fair sum of hard earned cash. A more cynical person would suggest that this is in part because they don't have GW's market share and have to be nice. I think the more cynical person would be right...I know it isn't the whole picture and I do believe that the attitude of Privateer Press is partly informed by the fact that they're nice people but the bottom line speaks for itself.

Now, what's that got to do with the lawsuit? Frankly, if there's a company out there offering a decent product to us hobbyists (filling in gaps in GW's coverage) and poking GW into the bargain then I say, all power to them. Chapterhouse, I wish you the very best of luck.

I don't believe for a split second that anything Chapterhouse does will put even the slightest dent in GW's profit margin.


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Sullen One said:


> Games Workshop is a successful company Stella, that's why they're the number one wargaming and modelling company in the world.


lets just ignore your "number one moddeling company" part shall we, stinks too much of GWs front page, and if your trying to say there number one compared to companies like Tamiya, well I doubt you'd go far with that one, it would be like comparing 50cent to beethoven.

as for wargaming other than D&D GW only has that number one spot because they have been around longer, not because they are masters at running a business, if anything they regularly show a complete lack of good business practice on a daily basis.

lack of support for products they produce would probably be the number 1 bad habit and quality control (looking more at the case of rulebooks and recent 100 page FAQ's they make on a regular basis)


The Sullen One said:


> That's why all those painting in Wargames Illustrated are done with citadel paints.


who would of thought it would make common sense to use easy to access paints as an example of painting, this does not prove high quality, but ease of access, there is a reason why most pro painters don't touch GW paints, and a reason why I've never seen a staffer paint his personel collection with the paints they push so hard to sell.


The Sullen One said:


> Oh and they got that way by coming down like the proverbial tonne of bricks on companies and enterprises that infringed their intellectual property rights.


that doesn't make a good business though, that just makes a bully, and its rare bullies stay on there number one spot for long, eventually all the little people they beat up come back to bite them in the ass.

thats a fact of life, just look at all the people that *ahem* "left of there own free will" now working for other companies who are growing very quickly as fine companies with good support, quality control and customer service.


----------



## Fallen

chapterhousestudios said:


> Many of you say our stuff is low quality and crap. Have you ever seen or used our items? I am very surprised by this, as I have emails from customers saying the quality is better or in line with other companies, but I have not seen any saying otherwise.


ive seen a few things of chapterhouse's items in person (mainly shoulder pads) and theyre really nice.



Phil73805 said:


> They were of great quality, well sculpted and well moulded. Not sure what the whinging is about. Though I will say that the pics on the website often don't do justice to the actual product.
> 
> 
> Now, what's that got to do with the lawsuit? Frankly, if there's a company out there offering a decent product to us hobbyists (filling in gaps in GW's coverage) and poking GW into the bargain then I say, all power to them. Chapterhouse, I wish you the very best of luck.
> 
> I don't believe for a split second that anything Chapterhouse does will put even the slightest dent in GW's profit margin.


this is my general belief as well, chapterhouse adds in things that GW either chooses not to do, or refuses to. i also wish you best of luck.


----------



## The Sullen One

Phil73805 said:


> Now, what's that got to do with the lawsuit? Frankly, if there's a company out there offering a decent product to us hobbyists (filling in gaps in GW's coverage) and poking GW into the bargain then I say, all power to them. Chapterhouse, I wish you the very best of luck.
> I don't believe for a split second that anything Chapterhouse does will put even the slightest dent in GW's profit margin.


Making Combi-weapons and marketing them on your site as well as online forums might dent GW's profits, since they're products that GW make themselves.



Stella Cadente said:


> that doesn't make a good business though, that just makes a bully, and its rare bullies stay on there number one spot for long, eventually all the little people they beat up come back to bite them in the ass.
> 
> thats a fact of life, just look at all the people that *ahem* "left of there own free will" now working for other companies who are growing very quickly as fine companies with good support, quality control and customer service.


Surprisingly being intimidating has worked for lots of companies and in any event protecting your intellectual property isn't bullying. It's good buisness sense.

P.S. Provoking you Stella is like toying with a Scorpion, easy to do when you've got a long stick.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I must have a really long stick...


Stella - if you can't understand how fewer people paying a higher price can still make more money than more people paying less, then talking to you is a complete waste of time...something I have long suspected.

Get over your pathetic 'GW is a horrible company' nonsense, huh? We're all bored of it.

We know your opinion, because you constantly tell us how much you hate the company, games, and especially players. 

- Oh, and as for 'games they no longer support' - I call bullshit on that one too, since there is still a Specialist Games section on the website, giving order details for their Specialist games ranges. Unlucky, but you are either ignorant or lying.
:wink:
Chapterhouse - If you weren't aware (and you have no excuse, as someone aiming to make money from IP derivative works) - anything created using GW IP belongs to them. This is clear from GW's own website -


> "PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP."


Not to mention that scrolling down to the bottom gives us this gem...


> Model Conversion Kits
> 
> We do not allow unlicensed third parties to manufacture or produce conversion kits for our models. We need to be able to control our products and all derivatives thereto in order that we produce quality products for years to come.


Source - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...goryId=&section=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4


----------



## chapterhousestudios

Marneus Calgar said:


> I agree with this...
> 
> Megablocks + Lego? Aren't they pretty much the same thing? Has either sued the other? No
> My friends dad makes fibreglass roofs for VW vans, has he been sued? No...
> 
> I don't think GW will win this case... Entirely...


Actually Lego did sue Megablocks, and they lost!


----------



## chapterhousestudios

The Sullen One said:


> Making Combi-weapons and marketing them on your site as well as online forums might dent GW's profits, since they're products that GW make themselves.


Really, they make seperately available (not on one sprue from a box set) weapon that have a unique (and I should say ingenious) design that allows the players to swap out the different auxillary weapons in the middle of the game or in between without forcing them to have redundant whole models?

Where do you shop?


----------



## chapterhousestudios

TheKingElessar said:


> I must have a really long stick...
> 
> 
> Stella - if you can't understand how fewer people paying a higher price can still make more money than more people paying less, then talking to you is a complete waste of time...something I have long suspected.
> 
> Get over your pathetic 'GW is a horrible company' nonsense, huh? We're all bored of it.
> 
> We know your opinion, because you constantly tell us how much you hate the company, games, and especially players.
> 
> - Oh, and as for 'games they no longer support' - I call bullshit on that one too, since there is still a Specialist Games section on the website, giving order details for their Specialist games ranges. Unlucky, but you are either ignorant or lying.
> :wink:
> Chapterhouse - If you weren't aware (and you have no excuse, as someone aiming to make money from IP derivative works) - anything created using GW IP belongs to them. This is clear from GW's own website -
> 
> Not to mention that scrolling down to the bottom gives us this gem...
> Source - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...goryId=&section=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4


Ok, Im going to offer you some free information, and really it is fact based.

Throw away what is on GWs IP Policy page. Why? Because allot of it has no legal law behind it, its just what the company says they do and do not allow.

It would hold as much water in court as say, me writing a check from the US government on a napkin for one million dollars and giving it to you.

Seriously, Im not being mean or harsh, but the GW IP Policy page is responsible for the mis-education of so many GW fans, its not funny.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Not so much...if they TELL you what you are doing is Derivative work, and you go on to do it, then you agree to that definition by default.

If you agree it is Derivative, then they have rights in relation to that work - including, but not limited to, royalties for such.

Whether or not you agree this definition applies to YOUR work, you are advertising using allegedly 'third-party' material (ie, artwork) - material that then has some claim on it by GW. If, say, you had used the popular meme 'Spess Mehreens' to denote the Blood Ravens*-themed material, then it would have been easily recognisable to the community, and yet not been touchable by GW.

It would also have been funny and kinda classy.

While GW's IP policy page is not legally binding in the way that a proper contract is, by making every reasonable effort to make those wishing to create derivative works available of it (etc) and having it so readily available, along with contact details, I believe it is certainly 'reasonable' to expect other companies to convey themselves in an appropriate fashion.

FWIW - I think you did well to create a little niche, and get off the ground properly...but you messed up big time, and overstretched. No joke, I would save myself the legal fees, settle, shut up production, and start planning the next set of things I'd make in 28mm scale that just happen to be easily convertible to GW game systems. Though, I'd have my OWN 28 mm game they were ostensibly for.

* - Property of GW/Relic.


----------



## bitsandkits

matters very little if chapterhouse is "filling the gaps" or not, they are not chapterhouse's gaps to fill, and thats what this will all boil down to in the end. Just because GW leaves gaps in its model range does not make it OK for someone else to try to exploit said gap using GW's own IP without GW's permission.

im not even sure why the "gaps" thing is up for debate, if it were perfectly legal for a company to profit from GW IP without permission or license then why are relic paying GW to use GW's IP for dawn of war? Why did battle gear Pay GW to produce GW jewelry and accessories, why did armourcast pay GW to produce models from GW IP prior to forgeworld? Why does Flight of Fantasy pay GW to produce roleplaying games using GW IP ??????
If your gonna use GW IP then you have to pay the piper, Its simply not Ok for a company to profit from the use of trade marks and IP without permission or licenses.

If it were legally sound to just steal GW IP and produce models and other things using GW IP do you honestly think that Chapterhouse would be the first people to work it out ? Some American dudes working out of a garage would be the only guys in the entire gaming world to give this a go? do you not think that the larger more established companies like privateer, tamiya or others would have not thought "well bugger me im having some of that 40k pie!" first? 

Pretty certain if GW Legal were writing legalese arse biscuits on its policy page it would have been jumped on already by much larger and more established and capable companies than chapterhouse.


----------



## bitsandkits

chapterhousestudios said:


> Actually Lego did sue Megablocks, and they lost!


they lost because the lego patents had expired, completely different to your pending case


----------



## the.alleycat.uk

Some of the stupid in this here thread comes close to being painful.

A patent is not an IP, as Bits n Kits says, that's the basis behind the megablocks case.

A Ford Mustang [or any other car] doesn't hold an IP, they may have patents and they will have design protection.

Ford may allow [or just ignore] after market parts but if you started a company called 'Ferd', made a car called a 'Mostang' and it was the same shape as the Mustang... then you can be damn sure that Ford would sue and win.

Also, generalisations and hyperbole to not make what you say true. Repeating it again and again doesn't make it fact.

Oh and CHS, if the advice you're getting states that "there is no legal law behind it", well, that isn't a good sign.


----------



## gally912

GW is just being a bunch of bitchy little girls who want to trademark every word ever in the 40k universe. 

As long as its labeled as Not-official GW products, I don't see it as any different as buying an after-market part for a car, or as Jezlad said, a charger for a cell phone.

If GW can get away with "Not Starship Troopers, but Space Marines!" then I don't see the problem with a 3rd party company making a spore-pod model. You know, the one that GW can't even say is a knock-off because GW hasn't made one yet.


----------



## TheKingElessar

gally912 said:


> GW is just being a bunch of bitchy little girls who want to trademark every word ever in the 40k universe.
> 
> As long as its labeled as Not-official GW products, I don't see it as any different as buying an after-market part for a car, or as Jezlad said, a charger for a cell phone.


...Only...it isn't?


----------



## gen.ahab

TheKingElessar said:


> Stella - if you can't understand how fewer people paying a higher price can still make more money than more people paying less, then talking to you is a complete waste of time...something I have long suspected.


Well, that would depend on the amount the prices decreased and the increase in sales. However, GW has a hold of 100% of the market and the decrease in prices probably wouldn't grab much more in sales so no need to drop those prices.... or some such shit.


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## TheKingElessar

Exactly. GW doesn't need to grow Market Share.

Remember the sheer scale of mark up on each model - while it costs tens/hundreds of thousands to produce a new kit, when they WILL sell (ie, Space Marine anything) they can make this money back fairly easily.

As for bitching about price rises - they only started making profit on old Land Raiders what, three years ago? I may be wrong, but I believe it was released in 87?

You can't have it both ways - either they run themselves responsibly, and raise prices, or they don't raise prices, and we rarely see new kits (which, IMO, is MORE damaging to the game/community)


----------



## coalheartly

gally912 said:


> If GW can get away with "Not Starship Troopers, but Space Marines!" then I don't see the problem with a 3rd party company making a spore-pod model. You know, the one that GW can't even say is a knock-off because GW hasn't made one yet.


FRom what i understand of it, if Chapter house had called it SCI-FI SPORE POD or something just as generic, there would be no problem. This isnt an attack on all third party bits makers, you dont see Maximini or Scibor getting sued, even though they make bits that can be used for 40k models. 

Its CHS's own fault.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Exactly. If you make a defined 'Mycetic Spore' then you affect FUTURE GW sales, even though it has no effect on present sales. There are a finite number of wargamers, and a finite demand for Tyranid models. Other companies that can be proven to aim at this demographic can be shown to be actively attempting to undercut GW.

For instance, if you used something from another game, like say Halo Covenant drop pods, to rep Mycetic Spores that is not illegal, because those are not in any way GW-related or based. If you buy something called 'Mycetic Spore' though, odds are it's illegal.


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## The Sullen One

chapterhousestudios said:


> Really, they make seperately available (not on one sprue from a box set) weapon that have a unique (and I should say ingenious) design that allows the players to swap out the different auxillary weapons in the middle of the game or in between without forcing them to have redundant whole models?
> 
> Where do you shop?


Only one of those four weapons is what I'd call unique and I'll grudgingly admit that it looks very nice, but the other three look just like the ones I can buy from Games Workshop.

That's what will damm you in court, that one picture is going to be a godsend to GW's lawyers. Oh and the fact that Blue Table Painting has been using your products, implying to anyone watching that GW have granted you a licence, as we all know they haven't, isn't going to look to good either.

As for where I shop I don't really see what that pertains to. I shop at Games Workshop some of the time, but I also buy stuff online. Outside of wargaming I shop at Tesco, but I doubt anyone would accuse me of blindly supporting Tesco just because I shop there (or because they're one day going to take over the world:laugh

But on a serious note, GW's IP policy, as stated on their website is based on English Common Law, which gives it both substance and weight.


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## LukeValantine

Just ordered all the bits that I like from chapter house so I am ready for the end to come now. To bad they had a few good items like the pre heresy helmets, and the banded tech marine shoulder pads (Have a Isac/deadspace feel). I know why GW did what they did, but damn if the current range of FW, and GW stuff isn't very limited in scope.


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## Sethis

To anyone who posted in this vein in the first couple of pages, just in case you're still following this:

I find it ironic that people have been slamming a small independant company for sub-standard work at increased prices, because isn't that exactly what the new Space Marine Movie is? An overpriced sub-Hollywood standard DVD? Yet everyone in that thread is encouraging people to buy it, so that the company can make money and more films can be made. I'm not saying that the two cases are identical in every respect, it just seems weird that on the one hand we've got people saying "This movie* isn't* amazing, but buy it anyway because we want to see more of it, and it might get better" and then we've also got people saying "CH sells overpriced tat, I hope they go out of business asap". Shouldn't you be giving third-party manufaturers the same benefit of the doubt that you're offering to the independent film company?

I also noticed that no-one who has actually bought anything from CH *themselves* has had anything bad to say about them. Maybe (rather more unlikely now in the case of CH specifically) if we tried to support third party manufacturers more with our wallets then we would see an increase in quality and quantity from them which, in my mind, can only be a good thing.

If GW can't or won't produce options for everything in their army books then I will happily go to another supplier who can sell me a set of Ulthwé Falcon hatches [Crying Space Elf Door Number 2] or whatever. It discourages monopolisation and would supply a lot more diversity in how armies look. I think there's a huge market for parts like the above which GW seems to be ignoring almost entirely.

Failing that, I will echo a previous poster and question why it takes so long to produce "tangential" parts for models. The progress seems glacially slow for what seems very simple. How hard is it to sculpt an army-specific symbol on a generic part and then cast a mould for it? I know people who could sculpt the 5 major craftworlds onto a jetbike canopy inside a fortnight, and they'd look fine to be mass-produced. Yet we see a single chapter of space marines catered for, what, once every 6 months over at FW? And little-to-no Xenos love. Alternate Fire Warrior shoulder pads? Alternate Monolith plates? Anything not in power armour or IG? At least CH and others like it are trying to address the problem.

That is not to say that I have a stance on the legal thing, I don't know anything about it, so I'm not going to comment about who might be right or wrong.


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## Stella Cadente

TheKingElessar said:


> Stella - if you can't understand how fewer people paying a higher price can still make more money than more people paying less, then talking to you is a complete waste of time...something I have long suspected.


1 person paying £25 for 10 toys = £25 for GW
2 people paying £15 for 10 toys = £30 for GW
holy shit they just earn't more money
if you can't understand that lower prices = more customers = more money, then talking to you is a complete waste of time.


TheKingElessar said:


> - Oh, and as for 'games they no longer support' - I call bullshit on that one too, since there is still a Specialist Games section on the website, giving order details for their Specialist games ranges. Unlucky, but you are either ignorant or lying.


oh you poor poor fool, considering not long ago GW closed down a site which had space crusade templates and rules on I don't think thats lying, thats you being ignorant to what Games GW has produced.


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## The Sullen One

Stella Cadente said:


> if you can't understand that lower prices = more customers = more money, then talking to you is a complete waste of time.


Hmm, maybe it does where you live, but up here in the North-west, there are lots of one man stores. On weekends and gaming nights these stores are packed, but on weekdays they are often exceedingly empty.

Now Games Workshop is a business, which surprsingly means it has to pay for other things besides the manufacture of models. Staff wages, operating costs (neither of which are helped by having stores that are empty a lot of the time), cooking the food in the canteen, running White Dwarf and other things take money away from its takings. 

Therefore Games Workshop has only a small profit (I think it's somewhere around 6%) with which to invest in the development of its products and stores. This is why prices are high, though the rise in VAT may have something to do with that as well.

In conclusion we can say, safely, that having enterprises like Chapterhouse studios infringing your intellectual property rights, and illegally copying and selling your products, is going to effect you unless you do something about it.


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## effigy22

Chapter House could have just offered GW some royalties on the products which include GW IP's... or even better not use GW IP. 

I have no problems with 3rd parties supplying products "Suitable for other ranges" but CH could have shown a little more tact in their product naming.


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## TheKingElessar

You're not half as smart as you think you are. Space Crusade was owned by Milton Bradley. Sure, GW wrote it - but it was never their game. Like Heroquest.

As for lower prices = more customers, where do these mythical customers come from? Only a VERY small segment of the population are even vaguely interested in the notion of spending money on toy soldiers - and, hell, this doesn't even include yourself, as you are so fond of telling us.

Actual Hobbyists, like myself and the majority of people who play the game, will continue to buy GW products. Sure, my shopping has shifted to online retailers in order to get value for money - but if you really think they can make the general public interested to a point where lower prices work, you either don't go outside much, or are a fool.

Also, I'm fairly sure GW actual sales have been dropping a while...like, since people realised how shit 4e was. All those stores that closed around 5 years ago being an indication. So, if sales are dropping, prices have to go up - that's how it works in the real world.


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## Stella Cadente

The Sullen One said:


> Hmm, maybe it does where you live, but up here in the North-west, there are lots of one man stores. On weekends and gaming nights these stores are packed, but on weekdays they are often exceedingly empty.


well...yeah, since there target audience is at school I would think so, but they could save money by just not opening on weekdays until 1 or 2pm, so they are open for when schools break.

or just close those stores until weekends and gaming nights, saves having to pay the staff.

or close all GW's and have hobby stores all independent retailers, who do allot better than GW most of the time, and can make use of the closed GW stores and staff, people then still have a place to game, and GW don't have to worry about any costs keeping them going.

these stores would also be able to cater to a wider range of products and so a wider audience, which means more money.


The Sullen One said:


> Therefore Games Workshop has only a small profit (I think it's somewhere around 6%) with which to invest in the development of its products and stores. This is why prices are high, though the rise in VAT may have something to do with that as well.


but again how do we know that charging £25 for 10 toys is the reason for that small profit, charging more means less sales which means less profit because your losing customers, who buy somewhere cheaper or move to a different hobby.

like myself, other than washes I haven't brought models from a GW in several years, which means you haven't made any money off me at all, which means no profit, but if boxes of 10 models were £15, then they might make £60-100 off me every month alone, which means profit from 1 person, and if thousands thought and did the same, its means more profit.


TheKingElessar said:


> You're an idiot. Space Crusade was owned by Milton Bradley.


then GW are the idiots for closing down sites printing those rules/templates.


TheKingElessar said:


> but if you really think they can make the general public interested to a point where lower prices work, you either don't go outside much, or are a fool.


no you stupid half brained moron, but it would bring in more customers who left the hobby due to price, and new customers who have been interested but put off by the prices, and current customers would buy more due to lower prices.

thats 3 areas of profit all in 1, instead of 1 area of profit from thick walleted fanboys.


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## bitsandkits

Stella Cadente said:


> 1 person paying £25 for 10 toys = £25 for GW
> 2 people paying £15 for 10 toys = £30 for GW
> holy shit they just earn't more money
> if you can't understand that lower prices = more customers = more money, then talking to you is a complete waste of time.


In an ideal world that would be great, but thats not how retail works, reducing GW prices by 40% would not double the number of customers, they might see a return of some lapsed customers who got out because of price but its wouldnt suddenly increase GWs player base by double,and if it miraculously did, you would have to increase factory out put by double to accommodate the increase in sales, which means the related overheads would also need to increase,as woulds shipping and likely storage,this would have a knock on effect and decrease the profit margin, but as you have already reduced the price of the product by 40% you would easily be running at a loss.


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## TheKingElessar

GW are legally obliged, because otherwise MB could take them to the cleaners. Lrn2Economicz. Again.

All, (maybe 30% of the current playerbase?) who have EVER left due to price (bear in mind a lot wont play any such games any more, a lot have no interest in 40k/WFB or have gotten sick of GW regardless of price, or who play other games and don't have the time any more etc) COULD come back, and it still wouldn't increase GW profit, because costs would have to go down by at LEAST an equivalent amount to entice them, and, as B&K said, operating costs increase, all across the line. Shipping, Handling, Production, Staffing, etc etc etc.

As for this 'customers who didn't start because of price' - where the fuck do THESE mythical people live? People who are attracted to the Hobby are either children, who are bought whatever they want by their parents to shut them up, or adults, who have disposable income, and the ability (hopefully) to determine what is and is not within their means, and spend accordingly.

In real terms, there is no practical difference between an army costing £400 for 2000points and £500 for 2000 points. 

GW was in financial trouble for so long BECAUSE they catered TOO MUCH to Hobbyists. If prices had been a little higher in the 90's, when the playerbase was larger overall, then maybe they'd be better off now.


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## Svartmetall

Stella Cadente said:


> ...but if boxes of 10 models were £15, then they might make £60-100 off me every month alone


Translation: "If boxes of 10 models were £15, I'd make posts about how those same models only cost 2 groats back in 1643 and therefore GW would be RIPPING ME OFF!"


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## TheKingElessar

Svartmetall said:


> Translation: "If boxes of 10 models were £15, I'd make posts about how those same models only cost 2 groats back in 1643 and therefore GW would be RIPPING ME OFF!"


I laughed so hard, it hurt.

This is true.:laugh::laugh::laugh:k:


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## bloodangels666

I think if gw dosnt completely ruin them then there demand for products will go up. Also if they don't then we will probably see more companies try to do the same thing an in the end the gamer is the winner of this law suit


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## TheKingElessar

bloodangels666 said:


> I think if gw dosnt completely ruin them then there demand for products will go up. Also if they don't then we will probably see more companies try to do the same thing an in the end the gamer is the winner of this law suit


Bliss, is it?

If GW actually loses, they will try again, and again, until one or the other starts haemorrhaging money, or they run out of avenues to attempt it in.

If the latter, GW will completely cease producing upgrades at all. Why should they? Other companies will undercut them, inferior product or no, people will buy them. Not everyone, but enough to make the expense of new sprues fiscally irresponsible at best. Then companies will be able to make alternative TWC, Flash Gitz, whatever else doesn't have models currently in the range. GW won't produce their own, because that would be risking financial ruin.

Instead, they will simply write out of the game any models they don't make. Think Ultramarines are dull now? Wait until they are one of about 9 TOTAL Chapters. Of course, if CHS is adjudged to be legally able to provide a 'Space Wolf Rhino Upgrade Sprue' then GW may just go out of business entirely. If that happens, 40k and WFB die because they will be unsupported...while someone else may come in and take over, are they going to be gamers? No.

The game will be unrecognisable, and the playerbase will evaporate. Nobody wins.


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## bitsandkits

bloodangels666 said:


> I think if gw dosnt completely ruin them then there demand for products will go up. Also if they don't then we will probably see more companies try to do the same thing an in the end the gamer is the winner of this law suit


Like i said previously, if you consider GW's sales for the last 25 years and how dominant they have been do you honestly think that other companies would not have already explored the possibility of producing there own 40k models using 40k IP if it was ok to do so? if it were perfectly legal to use GW's vast IP without license or permission we would have been flooded with Chinese produced sub standard crap by now.

Other indie model producers make models prefectly compatible with the GW systems but all except chapterhouse do so without including references to GW IP, Now if your in that industry and you could plaster GW IP all over your websites without fear of legal proceedings would you simply not bother ? Hell no, every wargame manufacture on the planet would sell his grandmother to get a couple of % of GWs market share.

The telling sign that GW have chapterhouse over a barrel is simply that chapterhouse came along and plastered GW IP all over its site and models, now even if none of the other indie model companies had thought of it before im pretty certain that scribor and maxi mini would have seen one of there competitors using GW IP in such a blatant fashion and this will have nudged them to check into the possibility, but there stance on using GW IP hasnt changed, why is that? 

I dont honestly think GW can stop people making models or parts that can be used with GW models, but when the company making the models uses GW IP without permission and the models could be mistaken for genuine GW parts GW will step in to protect its business and its customers.


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## Bubblematrix

bloodangels666 said:


> in the end the gamer is the winner of this law suit


I think not, if GW loses this then they loose control of their IP, at which point they will have a big board meeting and discuss wind-down as without their IP they have no product. Believe it or not you would actually see GW producing less stuff as it would no longer be in their own exclusive interest to expand their IP setting. Which is one reason why the courts would never make such a ruling as it goes against how law is supposed to protect people and businesses from criminals.

@stella - for the last time mate, take of the rose spectacles and put on the reading ones, go and find the shareholders report which GW recently put out and try to wrap your thick skull around the fact that GW has almost 99% market share and has tried numerous methods of selling more product and can't seem to do it - its not overpricing driving people out, its that they already service nearly the whole of the market. Just because there is one dissatisfied child who wants cheap toys and hasnt learned to use ebay yet does not mean that it is the only barrier to GW products. They have business men with experience, training and briefcases who are paid to try and grow their turnover, they probably dont listen to stellas with no briefcase.

As for the future of CHS, I actually hope they aren't burned to the financial ground by this, as they abviously know how to make bits and manage a team of sculptors. If they come out of this having learned that using GW IP is a bad thing and concentrate on generic sci-fi fantasy models and components then they are sure to do fine in the future.


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## Phil73805

Bubblematrix said:


> I think not, if GW loses this then they loose control of their IP, at which point they will have a big board meeting and discuss wind-down as without their IP they have no product.


At which point the universe will implode and the dead will rise from the grave and the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse will descend upon the imploded world and...okay, I think you get my point. Just the teensiest overreaction dontcherthink?

I think we're getting into some seriously hysterical responses. GAMES WORKSHOP WILL DIE!!!! No, they really won't. Their profit margins won't even notice the tiny dent caused by the armies of Chapterhouse style businesses that will rise from the wreckage of this lawsuit. Competition is healthy, GW has none within its own IP and can therefore afford to treat us like crap. I love the idea of independents challenging them, maybe forcing them to listen.

I know that I sound like I hate GW. I do not. I worked for them for five years which I loved and I still buy their stuff and play their games. But, I also buy other games and then discovered that there are other ways to treat customers where they don't feel like they've been rogered with a fire extinguisher.


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## TheKingElessar

No, becasue if other compaines can legally make products using GW IP as their name then GW _**WILL**_ go under. GW will HAVE to fight that at EVERY court available, because if they don't another company (say Lego, with their history of quality plastic manufacture) will undercut GW prices making TWC and other...wait - I already said all this. Huh. And nothing changed in the interim.


Games Workshop pay crap wages, slashed overheads, and have a HUGE mark-up, yet they still make very small profits. If CHS can make GW-branded products legally, so can, and WILL others - and that GW profit will dry up quicker than a dry thing in the capital of dryness.


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## Djinn24

The Sullen One said:


> Games Workshop is a successful company Stella, that's why they're the number one wargaming and modelling company in the world. That's why all those painting in Wargames Illustrated are done with citadel paints.


They don't make their paints. I forget who the hell makes it now but they just slap a label on it and call it theirs. It used to be made by Coat D'arms back when it was good paint. 

A lot of painters I know, Golden Deamon painters, 'Eavy Metal team, and folks lower on the totem pole such as my self use a mixed paint bag. My main paint is Vallejo which is by FAR much better then most of the Citadel paints.

Also last time I checked Revell was the largest model company in the world, and though I am sure they have slipped Warmachine was about to (and if I recall correctly did) push Games Workshop off the throne.

I love GW and have played them since 1996 and probably have one of the largest collection of models on these forums but they are far from perfect and not the end all of gaming.


----------



## Storm of Iron

I can't say I will be sad to see CHS go (if it does due to it's own stupidity) they only have themselves to blame, trying to make GW their cash-cow then pleading innocent (more like ignorance) for one the quality/standard of the merchandise sold looked very questionable and as a matter of principal im off to buy some FW stuff, not only does it look better but it also helps to support the company whom I have developed a good relationship with and enjoy spending time/gaming in their shop/using the gaming boards.

Plus the fact that CHS is basically arguing the toss and saying that black is white when it comes to the legality issues raised when they are clearly infringing GW'S IP. So I for one think that this legal proceeding won't come quick enough and so long CHS can't say you will be missed.


SoI


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## hungryugolino

Chapterhouse Studios isn't worth the fuss. Best thing would be for them to quickly and quietly disappear, so as to not cause problems for future GW products. (Not as though they do anything others haven't done better, anyway.)


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## Kreuger

A few thoughts. 

CHS is looking pretty boned. Intellectual property isn't simply a matter of reserved names, I suspect that the similarity in structure and iconography might be close enough to also be considered. Consider if CHS made mickey mouse logo shoulder pads (which would be hilarous). Using the logo would almost certainly inflame the Disney legal department as much as GW's.

Copyright meanwhile doesn't have to be actively pursued in the United States to be valid. As long as the original author can show they created/used the item before the infringing party they're reasonably well protected. There might still be grounds for fair use in selling a product that supports the GW line, though that seems awfully shaky - especially without permission.



Stella Cadente said:


> copying the background from fiction and changing names of characters and places to avoid breaching copyright/IP you mean.


For once I agree with Stella. One of the things that has made GW a great setting is the creative property they appropriated and synthesized from other peoples' original work. I'll list the more striking ones . . . . (but not the ones that are homages more than appropriations, Sly Marbo for instance - this would be more in the vein of fair use)


Space Marines in powered armor - Starship troopers
Tyranids - Starship troopers
Genestealers - Giger's alien
Structure of the Imperium - The Mote in God's Eye
Necrons - terminator
Chaos, both gods and the realm of chaos - Michael Moorcock
Daemon weapons - michael moorcock
the 8 pointed chaos star - michael moorcock
the dark elves - michael moorcock's melniboneans
Elves, dwarves, halflings, etc. - this is all so heavily borrowed from tolkien its no wonder his estate agreed to a license for LOTRs, they're finally getting paid
Emperor + horus - reference the bible on the betrayal of a favored son
that's enough

Now that said, GW have often done a good job of tweaking other people's material to make it more their own and avoid their own IP suits. In none of the afore mentioned cases did Games Workshop really do the creative heavy lifting. They took what somebody else had created and adapted it to their vague used-future setting. And besides its one of the things we* ALL love* about GW. They have cherry picked all the best content from the last 100+ years of fantasy and sci-fi literature and film (much longer if we include Bretonians etc.) In what other literature, film, game, or tv show series can the best all of these disparate create threads be tied together? GW has done a good job.

Also @ MadCowCrazy


MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont know where the bottleneck is in GWs workline but as it is it's taking way too long for them to release new products. At Gamesday I got the impression that every designer over at GW works on Fantasy, 40k and Lotr + whatever else they do.
> They either need to get more designers, more plastic injection machines or whatever it is that is stopping them, alternatively they could license bits out to other manufacturers.
> 
> I think the problem is though that they cant release things in a way that is consistent and reliable. If they would have released every single new model for the DE release, and all those models in plastic Im sure everyone would agree that would have been a godsend. Having them update the rules every 6 months with balance changes making every unit desirable on top of this would please most DE players...but then what? No new Dark Eldar stuff until the next codex? Nothing to look forwards to? Where would this leave us????
> 
> Pretty much the exact same place we are right now except with all the units and with rules that makes everything desirable....
> 
> I was trying to make a point but realised GWs release schedule is way too slow so I couldnt make one that makes sense.


The bottleneck is cost and speed of production vs speed of consumption + quality control.

I'm sure GW _Could _make more products or a greater variety of them, but as its been stated they have the whole market share already. They have to structure production to ensure they don't oversaturate the market. There is a certain point where GW is competing with themselves by adding new items too quickly. They want to maintain the strength of their 'core brands' and investing too much time or money in tertiary properties distracts the player base and dilutes their profit mainstay. 

Besides, dribbling out pieces and armies allows for a higher degree of quality control. And the longer the production process and the more people involved the more rigorous the production process needs to be. 

Anyway, more on-topic, There might be a circumstance where GW would want to encourage 3rd party production of those gap bits, but they would probably have to control the release schedule, or designate areas of prodcution where the release of gap-bits won't impact the thrust of their core brands. For instance, if they allowed a third party to cater to an obscure part of the range they don't intend on developing ever or until much later. An example would be the Epicast/Armorcast licenses. At the time there was a limited interest in developing Epic grade vehicles for hobbyists and players, but GW didn't want to do it themselves. Those items are out there. They fit the background. They were pretty well made. (I own the Chaos daemon engines) And it was a good solution until such time as GW wanted to produce a game variant of 40k incorporating super-heavies. 

Chances are GW won't ever spend the time to produce limited runs of shoulder pads or decorative cod pieces or whatever for every legion that has been mentioned in the lore. There could be a place for that production in the grim darkness of the future, where there is only business . . . if for no oither reason than it encourages more investment and variety. There is a certain . . . static quality to a business with only 1 real supplier.

*end ramble*

Kreuger


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## normtheunsavoury

One small point, don't SM's predate Starship Troopers by at least a decade?


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## Stella Cadente

normtheunsavoury said:


> One small point, don't SM's predate Starship Troopers by at least a decade?


starship troopers was published in hardcover in 1959, and rogue trader (probably the first introduction of marines aas far as I know) wasn't until the late 80's


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## normtheunsavoury

Oh, what a div, I was thinking of the rather terrible film of the same name.
OOps!


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## Stella Cadente

normtheunsavoury said:


> Oh, what a div, I was thinking of the rather terrible film of the same name.
> OOps!


you mean the 1 good and 2 terrible and bland series of CGI :biggrin:


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## Svartmetall

*posting from work*

Well...the Starship Troopers of the original Heinlein novel were very different from the ones in Verhoeven's film (which I actually thought was great piece of sci-fi satire, and the CGI bugs were pretty much state of the art for the time and still look good now). They had power armour and would use a thing called 'The Bounce' - which was like a mechanical equivalent of a flea's on-the-spot jump - to get out of sticky situations. I think, if memory serves, that the power armour worn by Heinlein's Troopers was actually the first appearance of the idea of powered armour suits in science fiction; Heinlein was a real visionary at times.

The troopers shown in the film were far closer to the Imperial Guard than anything else; lightly-armoured, basically-trained grunts thrown up against 'orrible alien monsters with what amounted to machine guns and little else, led by generals whose strategic approach amounted to 'throw enough men at the problem and eventually it'll go away'. If the film had come out without the original book as inspiration (albeit rather far-removed inspiration by the time it made it to the screen) I reckon people would have been accusing Verhoeven of ripping off the Imperial Guard idea...


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## GrizBe

Thing is though, the 'powered armour' in the origional Starship Troopers book was actually more like a heavy exoskeleton then an actual suit of armor. If you ever saw the woefully bad StarShip Troopers 3 movie, the 'Maurader Suits' are closer to what was origionally intended. 

The Avatar mecha are probably close.


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## normtheunsavoury

Stella Cadente said:


> you mean the 1 good and 2 terrible and bland series of CGI :biggrin:


No, they were all shit, sorry!


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## Kreuger

Sorry, I could have been more specific. I meant the original book, Starship Troopers. The description of the marauder suits is functionally the same as the space marine's armor. A fully enclosed suit of armor supported by a motivated exo-skeleton amplifying the wearer's strength and resilience. They also incorporated jump packs, very similar to the ones used my space marines, though I think the mobile infantry's jumps could go higher and longer than the imperial equivalents, which are often described as 'skimming' over terrain in short bounds.


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## Blue Liger

About time Chaoterhouse were fools!


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## bitsandkits

Kreuger said:


> Sorry, I could have been more specific. I meant the original book, Starship Troopers. The description of the marauder suits is functionally the same as the space marine's armor. A fully enclosed suit of armor supported by a motivated exo-skeleton amplifying the wearer's strength and resilience. They also incorporated jump packs, very similar to the ones used my space marines, though I think the mobile infantry's jumps could go higher and longer than the imperial equivalents, which are often described as 'skimming' over terrain in short bounds.


I assume your talking about the book that stole the idea of power armour from E.E.Smiths lensman series printed in 1937.....

But taking an idea and changing it and developing it and taking it to the next level or breaking it down and rebuilding it in a new way is how human society moved on from living in caves to landing on the moon, GW didnt take the armoured exo skeleton from starship troopers and start selling "starship troopers" using the writers IP and trade marks, they had the common sense to change all the borrowed ideas and redesign and rework them and add a fair amount of fluff and originality to carve out there own market. Also there is a difference between being "inspired by" or a "nod to" to blatant copying.


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## normtheunsavoury

Well, B&K has pretty much hit the nail on the head there. 
GW may well have taken inspiration from all over the place in the creation of what is now their IP. In the exact same way as authors have taken inspiration from what has come before, there would be no Clive Barker without H.P. Lovecraft. No Tolkien without Homer or the story of Beowulf. 
When you can take inspiration from various sources and then twist, manipulate and re-imagine that inspiration into something new then you have the right to put your stamp on it. 
If, on the other hand, you me or someone else decides that they can't be arsed with trying to do something new with an idea but would rather just be the class cheat and copy from someone else, then you get in trouble. 
Chapter House took a bite out of something that didn't belong to them and didn't even bother to try and cover their tracks. Plenty of other companies make things that are 'Compatible with 28mm heroic scale miniatures', very few of them have been stupid enough to put GW logos anywhere near them.


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## Svartmetall

bitsandkits said:


> I assume you're talking about the book that stole the idea of power armour from E.E. Smith's Lensman series printed in 1937...


You're absolutely right, it's so long since I'd read those that I'd forgotten about the suit of effectively power armour that Kinnison wears, I think it's in _Grey Lensman_ when he's infiltrating Helmuth's fortress. A quick Wiki-ing shows that this one was originally published in _Astounding_ magazine in 1939 (didn't come out as a novel till 1951) so yes, I guess E.E. came up with power armour first. The difference with Heinlein's novel was that he had power armour as standard kit for all troopers, whereas Kinnison's suit was made for him and not standard-issue by any means. 

Damn. Now I have to go find my copies of _Galactic Patrol_ etc. and trawl through them again...


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## Kreuger

@ B&K I totally agree. I wasn't trying to suggest that GW shouldn't defend their IP, or that the liberty Chapterhouse displayed was equivalent to GW re-writing. But the litigious nature of the business seems to smack of "Stop that or we'll sue you. We stole this fair and square." While I'm exaggerating for effect, I don't think GW acknowleges how much of their background they have heavily adapted from other people's work.

I really enjoy the synthesis of creative background material in 40K especially. Its the best part of the game/hobby. It gives context to all the wonderful monsters and army men. =) I don't totally love the road that got us there though.

I was agreeing with Stella in so far as, I find the aggressive defense of GW IP somewhat ironic considering how much of it is heavily 'inspired by' other people's work. GW has certainly put their stamp on the material. And to be fair they've gotten much more considered about it over the years. When Genestealers first debuted they were incredibly close to Giger's Alien, complete with resinous hives, derelict space-craft, and some sort of bodily invasion. Once GW started introducing Tyranids it diluted the strength of the Giger flavor. 

Anyway, to borrow somebody else's IP; 'If GW have seen farther than others it is only by standing on the shoulders of [insert heavily borrowed content].'

Kreuger


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## ChugginDatHaterade

I think the difference is that GW has done a very good job of making their flavor unique, even if it heavily borrows from other people. You wouldn't call Newton any less of a genius, even though a lot of his mathematics were borrowed and inspired from previous mathematicians. There are no new ideas. 

There is however a difference between saying "here are some armored pauldrons covered in lizardskin that are compatible with 28mm miniatures" and "here are some space marine shoulder pads for the salamanders chapter.


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## Phil73805

TheKingElessar said:


> Games Workshop pay crap wages, slashed overheads, and have a HUGE mark-up, yet they still make very small profits


How is £13,000,000 preliminary report operating profits in 2010, from a niche market, small profit? Especially considering the significant increase in profits yearly since 2008 (Up from £5.5m in 2009).

How much more do you think they would have made if Chapterhouse didn't exist, seriously. I used to work for them and let me tell you they have changed, and not in a good way. 

I say again, if Chapterhouse is able to challenge them and show how GW customers are starting to go elsewhere (don't get me started on independent retailers), dissatisfied with GW's ridiculous and astonishingly mercenary attitude then they have my support. 

To use one tiny example, Empire State Troops £15 for ten troops, Empire Greatswords £25 for ten troops! So because it's a special choice in the book they charge more for it? Really? Yes, the sprues are more complex but not £10 per box more complex. There are limits to even my stupidity.


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## EmbraCraig

Phil73805 said:


> How is £13,000,000 preliminary report operating profits in 2010, from a niche market, small profit? Especially considering the significant increase in profits yearly since 2008 (Up from £5.5m in 2009).


It's a fairly small profit compared to their income - they don't have a huge profit margin as everyone who makes comments like this seem to think they do.

The significant increase in profits is due to a bunch of things, including more sensible (from GW and their investors point of view) pricing and cutting costs. All of which were pretty much forced on them by the investors, as making a couple of million pounds of profit on more than 100m of revenue really isn't clever business.


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## The Sullen One

Phil73805 said:


> I say again, if Chapterhouse is able to challenge them and show how GW customers are starting to go elsewhere (don't get me started on independent retailers), dissatisfied with GW's ridiculous and astonishingly mercenary attitude then they have my support.
> 
> To use one tiny example, Empire State Troops £15 for ten troops, Empire Greatswords £25 for ten troops! So because it's a special choice in the book they charge more for it? Really? Yes, the sprues are more complex but not £10 per box more complex. There are limits to even my stupidity.


Clearly you've never heard of the idea of economy of scale. GW will charge more for the greatswords because they are less likely to sell them than the state troops. Why? Because Greatswords are a special choice, which means you can't take as many or need as many of them as you do core choices such as state troops. Therefore you have to up the price.


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## TheKingElessar

The figures for the early part of this Century are all the evidence you need that things are hugely different this year from their usual.

A 'significant yearly increase' from TWO years ago is hardly a sweeping success, especially since GW practically made a LOSS in 2008. They went into debt by over 10 Million in 2007, and stayed in such debt in 2008 as well - realistically it was the release of 5e 40k that gave them such a strong turnaround/kept them afloat.

Sales had been falling since 2004, and 2008 only saw a marginal increase despite the rerelease of this core game.

Looking at 2010's figures too, we can now see that, sales may have gone up, but are not up anything like enough to explain this increase (especially given they are down at constant currency levels) - we can see clearly from the reports that the vast majority of this is simply by actually becoming an efficient business for perhaps the first time.

Games Workshop has a PRIMARY responsibility to its shareholders, not to us...but I would like to point out that them going out of business fails to fulfill their responsibilities to us, either.

It is also worth pointing out that 2009's figures are skewed by the stellar popularity of Space Hulk.

I spent over an hour with these figures, and I admit I can't quite tell exactly HOW GW managed to make these profits...but a lot of it seems attributable to the price increases while maintaining sales growth. A significant amount is also doubtless the consolidation of resources that began in 2009...But I've gone way off-topic here.

My point was - when the profit is £13million from revenue of £126million, that's not exactly stellar. 

Hell, as Tom Kirby himself describes the business -


> That is where we are today; a leaner, more efficient business, but still not showing good growth...Shareholders who look for a predictable dividend on their shares might want to look elsewhere.


It is _hardly_ a model business (pun intended.)

(Sources - http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2009/gw_year_end_09.pdf / http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf)


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## bitsandkits

Actually statistically speaking the great swords are a better deal than state troopers, you get two full sprues in a box of great swords and only one in a state trooper box, that the reason the cost more it takes double the plastic and time to produce, and the same is true for most of the £25 elite boxes. 

Price and profit have nothing to do with the case against chapterhouse, its not really about how much GW is loosing to chapterhouse its more about chapterhouse making money from shit they dont own, In many ways GW legal costs incurred by chasing things through courts or stopping the sale of bootleg minis will directly have an impact on the price of minis because thouse costs will be included in the companies operating costs.


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## OIIIIIIO

Here is the thing about what they report as profit as I have dealt with this first hand. I have seen companies that have told their stockholders that they are making record profits and then turned around to tell the union that they are losing money, incidentally they also reported little to no profit to the IRS. WTF? What is true? Are they really going bankrupt? Are they so fucking piss-poor managed that they want to fight over a ten cent raise on the hour but they can give the 49 fucking VP's that they have an inflated bonus?

I put very little effort into believing what these companies tell us and to be truthful I am not sure how " honest " British companies are, I do know that very few American companies are 100% stand-up, say what you mean, honest. If CHS fucked up then fine, smack them on the hands and force them to do shit another way, but rest assured, one less company that makes miniature parts or what not increases the monopolistic stranglehold that GW can get on all of us that "play with little army men".

*There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible. 
Henry Ford *

Many of todays companies live by the anti-thesis of this quote. Very sad.


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## The Sullen One

Any company looks to cut costs. If this means reducing opening hours or making do with old, redundent equipment then that's what they'll do.

British companies follow this rule just as much as companies in other countries, being as honest as they have to be under public scrutiny. Bear in mind Games Workshop is expanding rapidly, at least here in the UK, so that will incur some losses. Beyond that they've also got some lines that for whatever reason aren't to popular, leading to more losses.

But as bits&kits pointed out, this isn't about a loss of profits or rising costs, it's about protecting IP and copyright.


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## ChugginDatHaterade

But guys, GW is the evil corporate empire. Dont you understand, if they protect their IP legally than bad stuff will happen,


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## The Sullen One

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> But guys, GW is the evil corporate empire. Dont you understand, if they protect their IP legally than bad stuff will happen,


Don't you understand, that if they don't protect their IP, even worse stuff, like oh, GW going out of business, will happen.

P.S. What did you do to get banned form Warseer after only one hour?


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## Moggy3d

i completly agree with what bits and kits has to say on the matter and theres no way the arguments going to be won by either side on heresy its what the court room has to say, at the end of the day if chs wasnt in the wrong then gw wouldnt be sueing end of.:smoke:


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## Moggy3d

but i would like some more ig heads  just putting it out there gw :smoke:


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## IadUmboros

I don't think I have much to add here except my lack of understanding why CHS don't (or at least didn't) raise their hands to GW, apologise, and carry on making "model space-viking tank parts". I guess it's just too late for that now.


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## Stella Cadente

Moggy3d said:


> but i would like some more ig heads  just putting it out there gw


they sell those beautiful metal ones...well I lie when I say beautiful, they look more like crap someone shat out there ass and GW thought they would sell them.


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## turel2

Chapterhouse are making money from an Intellectual property they don't own.

So GW has put its legal stomping boots on.

Otherwise everyone would be making GW mini copies and selling them.


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## inigo montoya

turel2 said:


> Chapterhouse are making money from an Intellectual property they don't own.
> 
> So GW has put its legal stomping boots on.
> 
> Otherwise everyone would be making GW mini copies and selling them.


That statement is just ignorant of the facts. CHS sells the items GW won't/don't sell.

A few points: 
1. I see a LOT of individuals from other countries acting as if they actually understand US IP laws. You don't. 

2. I see a lot of individuals callng the CHS products crap. What?? I bought everything to kit out a salamander army andit looked great. Used it a while, sold it, and now I bought all the goodies to finish kitting my seer council. Great product.

What ie evertyones problem with CHS - they provide a line of products that GW refuses to offer - those bastards! So no one but Harley Davidson should be allowed to make parts for HD motorcycles? What about your dell PC?


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## TheKingElessar

Yeah...except those ones GW DOES sell.


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## GrizBe

@Inigo: Clearly you don't understand IP law either.... The FACT is Cahpterhouse was selling its past as Salamanders, Space Wolves, Dark Angels etc parts... NOT generic pieces. They were saying that these were actually parts made specifically to be for those chapters, using GW IP to sell its things.

That is IP theft and against the law. So before you mouth off, check your facts.


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## Gog

inigo montoya said:


> What ie evertyones problem with CHS - they provide a line of products that GW refuses to offer - those bastards! So no one but Harley Davidson should be allowed to make parts for HD motorcycles? What about your dell PC?


Thats not what they are being sited for, everyone keeps refrencing things like car parts but what they have done thats wrong and what GW is irritated with is the use of thair Icons and thus accosiation with thair company.

Its not wrong to make a part for a Harly but it would be wrong to make a part for one, cover it in copys of Harly branding and market it in a fashion that says your parts are Harly Davidson.

The same with a PC anyone can make parts thats fine, but if someone made a Processor and slaped an Intel logo on it, then thats wrong.


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## Creon

The factor isn't that CHS is doing parts for models, but that they're using trademarked iconography and copy-written names. If they'd avoided that, no one would care, I'd guess.


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## Angelus Censura

inigo montoya said:


> That statement is just ignorant of the facts. CHS sells the items GW won't/don't sell.
> 
> A few points:
> 1. I see a LOT of individuals from other countries acting as if they actually understand US IP laws. You don't.
> 
> 2. I see a lot of individuals callng the CHS products crap. What?? I bought everything to kit out a salamander army andit looked great. Used it a while, sold it, and now I bought all the goodies to finish kitting my seer council. Great product.
> 
> What ie evertyones problem with CHS - they provide a line of products that GW refuses to offer - those bastards! So no one but Harley Davidson should be allowed to make parts for HD motorcycles? What about your dell PC?


IP isn't tough to understand, spent about 10 minutes on it in my Legal Aspects of Evidence class and moved on. CHS creates cheap imitations of property owned by GW, with aboslutely no legal sense whatsoever. I don't know what kind of clown would think he can create copies of IP with trademarked and copyrighted names, and sell them as his/her own. 

When it comes to creating parts for computers, motorcycles, etc - you can create general parts for a general product. Not specific parts for a specific product you do not own. If CHS had any sense, they would have create generalized conversion bits for generalized minis, not specific bits for specific GW owned product. They also would have got a legal advisor, created a disclaimer, and changed logos slightly to be distinguished from GW product.

To me, CHS was asking for it, as they lacked the intelligience to properly create, market, and sell product that wouldn't blatantly kick GW's legal team in the balls and give obvious reason for a lawsuit.


One other thing: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines there is the product GW supposedly refuses to offer. I don't blame anyone for wanting it cheaper, but GW not offering the products for conversions is a completely bullshit statement. No matter how much product for conversions GW come out with, customers like you seem to always be displeased with the options and want what little hasn't been made.


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## jigplums

Phil73805 said:


> How is £13,000,000 preliminary report operating profits in 2010, from a niche market, small profit? Especially considering the significant increase in profits yearly since 2008 (Up from £5.5m in 2009).
> 
> How much more do you think they would have made if Chapterhouse didn't exist, seriously. I used to work for them and let me tell you they have changed, and not in a good way.
> 
> I say again, if Chapterhouse is able to challenge them and show how GW customers are starting to go elsewhere (don't get me started on independent retailers), dissatisfied with GW's ridiculous and astonishingly mercenary attitude then they have my support.
> 
> To use one tiny example, Empire State Troops £15 for ten troops, Empire Greatswords £25 for ten troops! So because it's a special choice in the book they charge more for it? Really? Yes, the sprues are more complex but not £10 per box more complex. There are limits to even my stupidity.


ok to me this sounds like dis-gruntled ex staff member syndrome....

however lets look at your example:- empire state troops £15 and Empire greatswords £25

so i have an empire army in which i had 3x 20 empire statetroops. i have 20 great swords.

so i have triple the amount of state troops vs great swords.

The fixed costs for both products is the same[roughly] lets specifically look at the cost of the moulds.
Plastic moulds cost somewhere between £200,000 and £2,000,000[baneblade] to produce

so if you are going to sell 3x as many state troops the cost of producing them is significantly lower than that of the greatswords.

so yes troops are going to be "cheaper" than elite units, because they will sell less and therefore the fixed production costs will have a bigger impact.


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## Aramoro

Games Workshop must crush Chapterhouse like the fist on an angry god, whether they want to or not. Failure to protect your IP means you lose the right to that IP. Chapterhouse are advertising things as Games Workshops parts. 

I go to the page and see 'Dark Angel Player Components' they are using GW IP to advertise their own wares. Now if GW let that slide then everyone's happy. But then I go into production producing a line of Dark Angels miniatures, GW then has a much weaker case against me as it did not stop Chapterhouse using it's IP for profit making.


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## R3con

How is a "dark angel' unique? Try googling "dark angel" GWS doesn't even pop up on the first page. Sorry now if they were advertising a named guy within the DA codex then I could see some issues, but something as vague as dark angel, or 28mm sci fi figure?


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## Stella Cadente

R3con said:


> Try googling "dark angel"


true, dark angel gives you a TV series, but add an S like on the codex.








GW isn't mentioned directly, but those 3 would mention them.

but GW now have to sue that creative writing lot at the bottom


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## Jezlad

How does a mould cost 2,000,000 to produce?

Curiosity, not disagreement. It just seems so high. Too high really.


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## Aramoro

R3con said:


> How is a "dark angel' unique? Try googling "dark angel" GWS doesn't even pop up on the first page. Sorry now if they were advertising a named guy within the DA codex then I could see some issues, but something as vague as dark angel, or 28mm sci fi figure?


The answer is context. Chapter House are selling Dark Angels parts for Space Marines, this is clearly related the Games Workshop trademark on 'Dark Angels'. 

They won't care about the TV show Dark Angel, or writing books about Lionel Johnsons 'Dark Angel' but they will care if you start making parts for Dark Angel Space Marines. It's clearly an attempt to profit off the work Games Workshop has done.


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## Marneus Calgar

Jezlad said:


> How does a mould cost 2,000,000 to produce?
> 
> Curiosity, not disagreement. It just seems so high. Too high really.


It doesn't. 

It could get that high, depending on what you were making. This estimater; http://kazmer.uml.edu/Software/JavaCost/index.htm should give you pretty accurate estimates...

EDIT: Actually, saying that, the estimate for the Baneblade wouldn't be far off.


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## bitsandkits

Stella Cadente said:


> but GW now have to sue that creative writing lot at the bottom


Not quite true as that site isnt hawking GW IP based model parts so its unlikely anyone will mix the creative writers up with GW models,but thats the crux of the issue, a customer knows dark angels are something to do with GW, and when you want Dark angels models you expect a GW product and when that isnt always the case GW have to act. Like others have said before GW cant stop you making compatible parts but they can make marketing them as compatible a complete bitch. 

The key is separating what is a GW product from what is not a GW product, GW has spent 30 years building trust and its reputation and marketing its products so that people can have confidence in what they have bought.

The law suit isnt about making model parts its about the parasitic method of selling the compatible parts and the use of very recognisable design,phrases,IP and possibly even re-casting of GW parts.

Take wargames factory, small indie company obviously surviving by picking up sales from GW hobby gamers like you and I, they produced a plastic kit of great coat shock troopers, which were a practical attempt to pick up sales from people wanting the Death Korps of Krieg style model in plastic or without selling a kidney, But they managed to produce a plastic kit, market it and sell plenty of units without any mention of GW IP or terminology or reference to FW, now the models may not be as detailed as some of the stuff produced by GW but they are certainly at the same level as imperial guard models.


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## bitsandkits

Jezlad said:


> How does a mould cost 2,000,000 to produce?
> 
> Curiosity, not disagreement. It just seems so high. Too high really.


the "quoted" cost of moulds varies dramatically on the net, i looked into this for some projects and i was quoted by the guys that do vitrix's moulds about 3kish for a sprue, but it depends on the amount of work wtc. ask the mantic guys who does theres as i dont think they do it in house, im sure they farmit out to the dudes that do warlord games sprues in nottingham.

people assume that cutting the mold is the beginning and end of the process, they forget about materials, wages, packing etc etc


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## TheSpore

I think i read enuff of this thread to say this at least...
I cannot blame GW doing this. Sure Chapterhouse may be selling items that fill in gaps that GW never does but that in fact is the nature of the hobby which is to leave freedom of creativity for there customers to explore.

Beside the point im going to use music as an example... If i put out a song and made millions off it and some joe blow off the street decides he is gonna get paid to record the exact same song without my permission and winds up making millions off it as well you best believe i would sue the pants off him. This case is not because they sell these products but because they made and sold products without GW's consent. In the legal world theyGW is playing bully but playing smart buisness. If GW didnt act upon this then as a buisness they would be seen as pushovers and then others would begin to rip them off. I will always stay true to GW even though they have done oddly stupid buisness moves. this issue i support.


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## R3con

TheSpore;843368If i put out a song and made millions off it and some joe blow off the street decides he is gonna get paid to record the exact same song without my permission and winds up making millions off it as well you best believe i would sue the pants off him. .[/QUOTE said:


> Every time the music analogy comes up I hear Vanilla Ice describing the difference in his "hook" it makes me die a little inside.


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## LordWaffles

jigplums said:


> so yes troops are going to be "cheaper" than elite units, because they will sell less and therefore the fixed production costs will have a bigger impact.


I'll agree that troops sell more this edition, but something worth noting is that this trend does not match up universally with all products.
Rhino hulls, which cost nothing worth mentioning pointwise(But tons money/pointwise), which you need 6 or more to make a standard competitive list are priced ridiculously more than the five guys with a flamer going into the truck.
They cost more because gw arbitrarily decides what you're willing to pay for these models and at what point the price gouging will hurt them on the profit curve. That's simply all it is. If they could sell 100 greatsword boxes for 20 bucks, or 80 for 30 bucks, or 30 for 50 bucks the choice is obvious which they'd go for.

And legality and music is a joke. Music is stolen more nowadays then booty was in the days of pirates.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheKingElessar said:


> Also, I'm fairly sure GW actual sales have been dropping a while...like, since people realised how shit 4e was. All those stores that closed around 5 years ago being an indication.


Just to let you know, all those store closures and associated things were nothing to do with 4e. It was entirely to do with the bursting of the LotR 'bubble'. Speaking as someone who saw what happened from the inside, the company got a huge financial boost from LotR sales whilst the films were out. They invested that money in new manufacturing facilities in the US, buying out their own plastics machines in the UK (as well as moving mould-making and production in-house to Nottingham from Wisbech) and expanding the UK HQ, as well as opening numerous new stores. 

When that financial bubble imploded, they realised (and freely admit) that they spent more than they should have, and struggled immensely for the next few years. This included taking out huge loans. Several people mention how their profits are very low at present - well, that's because they are ploughing everything they possibly can into paying off those debts as fast as possible, and still have a profit margin that will keep their long-term bigger investors and stock-holders (just about) happy. 

Everything that folk are saying about GW absolutely having to protect their IP is right: If it gets used without permission once and they let it slip, they can't ever go after anyone else with a hope of winning. A few years ago there was that big hoo-har about the CGI film made in germany? The details escape me, but I do know that GW said no to them when they asked to make it. They made it anyway, and then were surprised when GW came after them. 
It's also why GW have never released the right to a 40K film to Hollywood. The second they lose that complete control of their IP, then they are doomed. That was straight from the mouth of Tom Kirby. 

ChapterHouse made the mistake of using the exact same wording that GW does, to go with items that exactly matched what GW produces. If they'd stuck with names that were generic descriptions (such as "space-vikings" and "alien monsters") then GW couldn't have touched them. Customers would still have known exactly what they were looking at, but the company would have been safe from sueing. No amount of calling GW bullies or Evil Empires will change the fact that GW is legally in the right here.

And for the record? Yes, I worked for GW for over 10 years, in both stores and Studio. No, I am not a rabid GW defender, I know they have flaws and can be utter bastards at times. I just like to point out things I know happen to be true, when it's not obvious to those who were outside how these things worked inside.


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## SilverTabby

LordWaffles said:


> They cost more because gw arbitrarily decides what you're willing to pay for these models and at what point the price gouging will hurt them on the profit curve. That's simply all it is. If they could sell 100 greatsword boxes for 20 bucks, or 80 for 30 bucks, or 30 for 50 bucks the choice is obvious which they'd go for.


There was a push in the Studio a few years back to standardise what you pay for troops/etc across all the armies. The minimum troop unit for any army would cost the same: so 20 Clanrats would be the same as 10 Chaos Warriors... you get the idea. The idea was stopped at the financial upper management side. 

So please, when saying that GW are all money-grabbing bastards who don't care about the players, please remember that it's the accountants who are like that. The people who make and write the stuff _do_ actually care, and try to make things enjoyable and the figures nice. They'd love to make all the gubbins you ask for, but it's amazing how once you've seen how these things work from the inside, you realise that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with the release schedule, let alone add new things on the side. 
Forgeworld try to take up the slack, but again: with a small sculpting team, and the length of time it actually takes to make a model suitable for casting, getting the moulds made (and remade every time they wear out, which both casts for metals and resins do at an alarming rate in mass-production), and getting it all ready for shipping off, it's bloody hard work just keeping up let alone branching out...

Sorry for the brief aside, now back to the IP issues...


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## Akhara'Keth

SilverTabby said:


> Just to let you know, all those store closures and associated things were nothing to do with 4e. It was entirely to do with the bursting of the LotR 'bubble'. Speaking as someone who saw what happened from the inside, the company got a huge financial boost from LotR sales whilst the films were out. They invested that money in new manufacturing facilities in the US, buying out their own plastics machines in the UK (as well as moving mould-making and production in-house to Nottingham from Wisbech) and expanding the UK HQ, as well as opening numerous new stores.
> 
> When that financial bubble imploded, they realised (and freely admit) that they spent more than they should have, and struggled immensely for the next few years. This included taking out huge loans. Several people mention how their profits are very low at present - well, that's because they are ploughing everything they possibly can into paying off those debts as fast as possible, and still have a profit margin that will keep their long-term bigger investors and stock-holders (just about) happy.
> 
> Everything that folk are saying about GW absolutely having to protect their IP is right: If it gets used without permission once and they let it slip, they can't ever go after anyone else with a hope of winning. A few years ago there was that big hoo-har about the CGI film made in germany? The details escape me, but I do know that GW said no to them when they asked to make it. They made it anyway, and then were surprised when GW came after them.
> It's also why GW have never released the right to a 40K film to Hollywood. The second they lose that complete control of their IP, then they are doomed. That was straight from the mouth of Tom Kirby.
> 
> ChapterHouse made the mistake of using the exact same wording that GW does, to go with items that exactly matched what GW produces. If they'd stuck with names that were generic descriptions (such as "space-vikings" and "alien monsters") then GW couldn't have touched them. Customers would still have known exactly what they were looking at, but the company would have been safe from sueing. No amount of calling GW bullies or Evil Empires will change the fact that GW is legally in the right here.
> 
> And for the record? Yes, I worked for GW for over 10 years, in both stores and Studio. No, I am not a rabid GW defender, I know they have flaws and can be utter bastards at times. I just like to point out things I know happen to be true, when it's not obvious to those who were outside how these things worked inside.


Great Post! :goodpost:

That really helped me to understand the whole IP policy and why they are doing it. I can really understand it.


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## Angelus Censura

SilverTabby got it exactly right when it came to IP (Good post!) - When in court, it is obviously the opposing lawyers job to bring up any dirt he can on you from the past to help win the case against you. If GW were to see that their IP is being used by a company, and not do anything, then try to sue another company for the same reasons down the road, the opposing lawyer would most definitely bring that up. He would attack GW for it, asking why they would show favoritism to one company over another, and state that if they truely cared for their IP, they wouldn't simply pick and choose who it is they go after. It would also be stated that GW inadvertantly made the statement that it was 'okay' for a company to use their IP since the first company wasn't sued for it. Lawyers will use any sort of twisted logic they can to support a case, and if worded/presented properly, a jury or judge will buy it and rule in their favor. This said, GW being money grubbing and attempting to make a profit off of small companies in any way they can is completely incorrect. It isn't so much the money GW goes after in these circumstances (though that is definitely part of it), but rather the strong statement that they will not stand by and allow another company to use and make a profit off of their IP.


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## inigo montoya

I am humbled. Apologies.


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