# I'm Confused



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Space Wolfs lore states/hints that only natives of Fenris can take the Space Wolves geneseed, what with the whole Canis Helix thing. Yet during the HH novels, we have the Emperor leading the legions into the stars in search of thier lost primarchs. So we have terran marines, of almost every legion mentioned. Yet would Terrans have been able to assimilate SW gene seed, and if they had, would it have taken in them like Fenrisians? I.E. The Fangs

It just seems like a little bit of a logical paradox.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I thought the fenrisian thing was just an honour thing... not a genetic thing, but I can't say I know too much about SW geneseed fluff


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

ahh, you see the hole in the story  

It's meant to be a genetic thing. When the Legions split and the Space Wolves formed the Wolf Brothers chapter the aspirants were taken from a different world. These aspirants didn't have the Canis Helix, not being from Fenris, and couldn't process the Space Wolves gene seed. The Wolf Brothers were rife with mutation and were disbanded and the Space Wolves never formed another chapter (see Battle of the Fang for more info).

But as mob16151 points out, the original Legionaires were from Terra and should therefore also be lacking the Canis Helix. So there is indeed an unexplained hole in the background.

As a MASSIVE Space Wolves fan, I just choose to ignore this minor detail... there are ways of explaining it anyway. Genetic mutation wasn't initially present in the Thousand Sons. Maybe Russ and Fenris were discovered quickly enough to insert the Canis Helix into the Legion before too many marines mutated? and I'm sure there were instances of Wulfen among the ranks before Russ was found, so it's not like there was no mutation in the early days.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Only Fenresians being able to take the gene-seed of russ makes very little sense. Problems being the fact that the Space Wolves like every legion would have been originally composed of Terran marines. Then there's the fact that the Emperor was most likely not working with any Fenresian genetic material back on Terra, Fenris being half a galaxy away and the Emperor not knowing Russ would land there. (which is the most likely scenario. If he did know where the primarchs would land he would have got to them a lot sooner, the better to shape them to his original plan). 


Also i think there's some confusion on what the Canis Helix actually is. It's just another part of the gene-seed, a trait inherited specifically from Russ. So Terran marines (still using the same gene-seed after all) would still posses the Canis Helix. (though why the emperor designed something into their gene-seed that would mutate them is another problem). So perhaps rather than only natives of Fenris having the Canis Helic they are the ones who trigger it due to the effects of the warp and chaotic mutation. Fenris is pretty close to they eye after all. 

Is it directly stated anywhere though that only Fenris natives can accept Space Wolf gene-seed? If it's only hinted at then it doesn't have to be true. It might just be a superstition of the Space Wolves who are a very superstitious chapter. (Or a side effect from a design standpoint of yet again trying to make the space wolves special snowflakes. Not only are they the best legion, with the best primarch who beat all other Astartes but they have super special gene-seed too! /sarcasm)


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, the Wolf Brothers weren't disbanded for about 800 years after the Heresy (in "Battle for the Fang" its said that the Wolf Brothers were disbanded 200 years ago. "Battle for the Fang" is set 1000 years post heresy). So they worked for a bit.

One of the Wolf Priests in "Thousand Sons" talks about how the Space Wolves, like the Thousand Sons, must carefully watch their brothers to make sure the flesh change doesn't take them. Which insinuates that mutation was rampant amongst the Space Wolves in their early history.

In "Prospero Burns" we know of a Terran Space Wolf known as Long Tooth. He was one of the few remaining Terran Space Wolves towards the end of the Great Crusade. I know it's merely conjecture, but he may be one of the few left through a combination of normal combat attrition and high mutation rate for non-canis helix carriers. As a side note, despite only being a couple-three hundred year old (a relative pup for Space Marines), he's moves, outside of combat, similarly to an elderly person. 

So I figure this, in non-helix carrying humans mutation is pretty high. As time goes on, it gets worse. A non-Fenrsian probably couldn't bear with it past a couple hundred years for the majority of them.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

My guess would be that the Space Wolves gene-seed has adapted to be only suitable for Fenrisian natives but that originally, in it's uncorrupted form, it could have been implanted in anyone. 

Given that Fenris is an increadibly harsh world with a quite small population it seems unlikely to me that a Legion could maintain full strength while recruiting solely from this world. This, combined with the fact that there were clearly Terran marines indicates that at some point it must have been possible to implant the gene-seed successfully in others.

Another possibility is the idea that the gene-seed will always cause a certain percentage of recruits to suffer from mutations. However natives of Fenris being both hardened survivors and the possible result of genetic manipulation are better able to resist this change than individuals selected from other worlds. Given that the Wulfen change is clearly supposed to be influenced by werewolves and werewolves can often fight against the change I think this is a logical proposition.

Another possiblilty of course is the Space Wolves have no idea what they're talking about.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe the original Terran based legion were made from a different geneseed? Or, perhaps the Emperor was able to temporarily overcome the flawed geneseed, which later mutated further? 10,000 years is a long time for genes to go bad and mutate.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Rems said:


> (Or a side effect from a design standpoint of yet again trying to make the space wolves special snowflakes. Not only are they the best legion, with the best primarch who beat all other Astartes but they have super special gene-seed too! /sarcasm)


:goodpost:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think it's worth remembering that the creation of the Primarchs - and thus, vis-a-vis, the Gene-seed as well - wasn't a matter of pure science. Chaos was a part of it as well, as was sorcery.

With that in mind, here is my proposal:

1. Primarchs are created. Gene-seed is initially base-line - no flaws, etc.
2. Primarchs are scattered. Leman Russ lands on Fenris.
3. At that point, several Primarchs are fundamentally altered by the conditions of their planet. Russ, for instance, becomes wolf-like.
4. Due to the sorcerous factors involved in creating the Primarchs, there is a mystical/supernatural link between the Primarch and the Gene-seed derived from him.
5. As the Primarchs mutated due to the factors of their adopted homeworld, the Gene-seed linked with them did so as well.

This is, admittedly, a reach on my part. Having said that, the Imperium seems genuinely convinced that the Traitor Gene-seed inherently cannot be trusted. This might be because it has been demonstrably proven that the state of the Gene-seed directly correlates to the state of the Primarch (if still alive).

6. In Russ's case, this manifested as the wolf-like effects of the Canis Helix, caused by the conditions found in Fenris. Admittedly, I don't know how. Maybe it's a combination of the psychic rapport he built with his adopted wolf family, in conjunction with DNA absorption (feeding from, bitten by, etc.)?

We are increasingly seeing the Primarchs as being able to do things that far transcend the stereotypical "bigger, stronger, faster, smarter than Astartes" concept. Magnus is able to see the genetic history of a living being; Corax can become invisible. I don't think it's out of this realm for Russ to absorb the genetic data necessary for him to survive in one of the most hostile environments possible.

7. Codex: Space Wolves states it's necessary for the Chapter's aspirants to take the Canis Helix if the Gene-seed is to function properly.
8. "Battle for the Fang" implies it might have taken several centuries for the Wolf Brothers to succumb to their state.
9. Ergo, it is feasible that Russ was found early enough that the Terran Legionnaires did not succumb to the same fate.

Thoughts?


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> I think it's worth remembering that the creation of the Primarchs - and thus, vis-a-vis, the Gene-seed as well - wasn't a matter of pure science. Chaos was a part of it as well, as was sorcery.
> 
> With that in mind, here is my proposal:
> 
> ...


I like it and it does a nice job of explaining amongs the other things you already mentioned, why the AM is so hard core about constantly checking the gene seed. And the cursed foundings possibly.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> 4. Due to the sorcerous factors involved in creating the Primarchs, there is a mystical/supernatural link between the Primarch and the Gene-seed derived from him.
> 5. As the Primarchs mutated due to the factors of their adopted homeworld, the Gene-seed linked with them did so as well.


This would also explain why Terran born Night Lords display the same full-pupil-eye look that the native Nostramans have. It's wierd for sure, but I don't really see any reason why it couldn't work.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Do they, really? Hmmm. And I was prepared to dismiss "cosmetic" adaptations, like Vulkan's skin and eyes...

Eh, if it works, it works!


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Well done Phoebus, I think you solved the problem


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

... until the next Space Wolves Horus Heresy novel gives the real answer, I suppose. 

But for now, it lets me sleep easier at night! :wink:


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I always thought it was superstition.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No offense Phoebus but I am not a fan of this WiFi gene-seed theory of yours lol.

If this was the case then the Imperium would have no need whatsoever to keep stock of the traitor gene-seed on Terra as it would be utterly useless forever.

And I don't see how just landing on Fenris made Russ develop wolf-like tendencies or living with a pack of fake wolves that are either alien or warp-created, rather he was always destined to exhibit such traits as the Emperor planned.

To be honest I never was a fan of the Emperor using the Warp to help in his creation of the Primarchs as it just takes away some of the intrigue of the Emperor and his mysterious past as the Warp's power cannot be explained and there is no mystery behind it, it just is what it is.

The Emperor using the pinnacle of human science from the Dark Age of Technology was always a much more interesting route for GW to take I think because it shows you how far humanity reached in the sciences and shows you how much was lost afterwards.

Overall I think it's just a genuine case of fluff inconsistency to be honest and something that should get sorted out in the near future.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> No offense Phoebus but I am not a fan of this WiFi gene-seed theory of yours lol.


None taken. Like I said, it relies heavily on the supernatural. With that in mind, though, it's no more a stretch than, say, Corax turning invisible... or Magnus' evolutionary eyesight.



> If this was the case then the Imperium would have no need whatsoever to keep stock of the traitor gene-seed on Terra as it would be utterly useless forever.


Is it not useless anyways, though? It's not as if they're using it. Truth be told I have no idea why they're keeping, period. 



> And I don't see how just landing on Fenris made Russ develop wolf-like tendencies or living with a pack of fake wolves that are either alien or warp-created, ...


Like I said, my idea comes from the fact that Primarchs are increasingly depicting traits that go beyond the "stronger, faster, smarter, better than Astartes" concept.

Otherwise, why did Curze develop Nostraman eyes? Why did Vulkan get Nocturnal skin and eyes? Science tells us that it would take a vastly prolonged period of time for human beings to acclimate to their environment enough to develop such traits. We're not talking about human beings, though - we're talking about Primarchs. 



> ... rather he was always destined to exhibit such traits as the Emperor planned.


So the Emperor intentionally bred wolf-like traits in him and his men and then Russ landed on a planet like Fenris out of what - coincidence?

Because it's either that or intentional design, and that flies in the face of your stance below:



> To be honest I never was a fan of the Emperor using the Warp to help in his creation of the Primarchs as it just takes away some of the intrigue of the Emperor and his mysterious past as the Warp's power cannot be explained and there is no mystery behind it, it just is what it is.


Coincidence doesn't sound likely. So either the Emperor did breed into Russ traits that matched with Fenris and thus the whole "The Ruinous Powers stole the Primarchs" theme becomes moot; or the Primarchs really did land somewhere randomly and developed specific adaptations and powers to match their new environments.



> The Emperor using the pinnacle of human science from the Dark Age of Technology was always a much more interesting route for GW to take I think because it shows you how far humanity reached in the sciences and shows you how much was lost afterwards.


To each their own, I suppose. Personally, I always assumed there was some amount of supernatural to his work. He was a 30,000+ year old psyker at the time, and the product of humans who called themselves shamen - itself a rather mystical title. Between all that and the fact that the supernatural were the main threat to Humanity, I found it unlikely that such a being wouldn't have ever intersected with the Warp and/or sorcery. 



> Overall I think it's just a genuine case of fluff inconsistency to be honest and something that should get sorted out in the near future.


Oh, no doubt! My musing is only meant to propose a plausible answer until such a thing happens. And like I said, when Magnus can see a creature's genetic history and DNA-like hopes at a glance, Russ absorbing the DNA needed to survive in Fenris is hardly unlikely. Especially given that his "legend" had him _being raised by Fenrisian wolves._ :wink:

Anyways, it's all conjecture and opinion at the end of the day!

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> it's no more a stretch than, say, Corax turning invisible... or Magnus' evolutionary eyesight.


But those are purely products of their warp based origins. Were we to take your theory into consideration, we would have to realize the Primarchs have a tie to their respective Legions that is stronger and more reliable than any means of communication navigators, psykers and the Astromican possess.



Phoebus said:


> Like I said, my idea comes from the fact that Primarchs are increasingly depicting traits that go beyond the "stronger, faster, smarter, better than Astartes" concept.


Again, simply byproducts of their Warp based origins.



Phoebus said:


> Otherwise, why did Curze develop Nostraman eyes? Why did Vulkan get Nocturnal skin and eyes? Science tells us that it would take a vastly prolonged period of time for human beings to acclimate to their environment enough to develop such traits. We're not talking about human beings, though - we're talking about Primarchs.


Perhaps during their voyage to the planets they were found on, some of the Primarchs developed anomolies such as Sanguinius and his wings, etc.



Phoebus said:


> So the Emperor intentionally bred wolf-like traits in him and his men and then Russ landed on a planet like Fenris out of what - coincidence?
> 
> Coincidence doesn't sound likely. So either the Emperor did breed into Russ traits that matched with Fenris and thus the whole "The Ruinous Powers stole the Primarchs" theme becomes moot; or the Primarchs really did land somewhere randomly and developed specific adaptations and powers to match their new environments.


GW wanted a viking Primarch did they not? Regarding the Terran Space Wolves, this is something I asked about in another thread and some people have raised the very same question but no one seems to know hence the fluff inconsistency.

Perhaps the Chaos powers also had a hand with the Primarchs and their respective traits/abilities during their voyage seeing as how it was they who seemingly chose what planets they would each land on.


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## Hitman4444 (Jun 17, 2009)

wasnt wyrmblade in the battle of the fang, working on research into the geneseed/canis helix to allow second foundings? which means it may be possible for off-worlders to be implanted with the space wolf geneseed. 

the emperor could have had the means to create terran spacewolves, yet the ability to do so was lost during the heresy, or possibly due to geneseed deterioration this is why its no viable to create spacewolves from off-worlders now, we don't know if before the heresy the geneseed was stable and able to be implanted on anyone


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Not to be an attention whore, but any love/hate for my idea?

Basically that, yes, the SW geneseed can work for off-worlders, just not on too many. Apparently at an insufficient rate that through battle attrition and other losses, a SM force using SW geneseed could not sustain itself indefinitely due to mutation.

Just raising the point again since no one said aye or nay towards it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm going to quote myself from a previous thread because I think it has some relevance to this discussion.



> What I think the inferences about fenrisians turning is more to do with werewolves, and might indicate that the mutation that causes the Wulfen might actually be present in native fenrisians even _before_ the implantation of the geneseed. The process might just activate a dormant gene already present in an aspirant. The difference is that a SM turned wulfen would be ten times more lethal than an unaugmented human who mutates.
> 
> This may also indicate why any succcessor chapters were a failure. _The natives and the geneseed have mutated in tandem_, and if you implant the geneseed in someone not from Fenris, maybe they simply aren't compatible.


Basically, the geneseed implanted in the original terrans may not have yet been corrupted, and may have only become so with exposure to Fenris and Fenrisians. There was a whole lot of genetic manipulation going on when Fenris was first settled to allow all forms of life to survive and flourish, so when the SW geneseed mixed with fenrisian DNA, and is then passed down from generation to generation of new aspirant, the effect is compounded, especially over thousands of years.

Here's a link to that thread for those that didn't see it, it might be of help as it touches on this subject.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99534


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm going to quote myself from a previous thread because I think it has some relevance to this discussion.
> 
> What I think the inferences about fenrisians turning is more to do with werewolves, and might indicate that the mutation that causes the Wulfen might actually be present in native fenrisians even before the implantation of the geneseed. The process might just activate a dormant gene already present in an aspirant. The difference is that a SM turned wulfen would be ten times more lethal than an unaugmented human who mutates.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure in the 4th (possibly 3rd) Space Wolf book about old Raggy, he's mulling over the wulfen and mentions that the normal Fenrisians sometimes become wulfen type chaps and are put to death by their clan/tribe because any clan/tribe found harbouring them would be put to the sword by all the other clans! :grin:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If this was the case then the Imperium would have no need whatsoever to keep stock of the traitor gene-seed on Terra as it would be utterly useless forever.


Well they don't use them. But there would still be a point. After all some members of the traitor legions remainded loyal during the Heresy. If gene-seed contains a link to the Primarch then they will inherit some of his skills and personality but that doesn't necessarily mean they will inherit his betrayal. Remember that many of the triators turned because of situational effects not because they simply insticitvely hated the Emperor.



> And I don't see how just landing on Fenris made Russ develop wolf-like tendencies or living with a pack of fake wolves that are either alien or warp-created, rather he was always destined to exhibit such traits as the Emperor planned.


The Primarchs appear to have increadily adaptive bodies and minds. Numerous Primarchs are shown to be altered quite heavily by their lifestyle immediately after arriving on a new world. The idea that living with wolves in his youth might cause Russ to adapt by growing fangs and developing a beastial personality is no more far fetched than Curze developing night vision or Mortarion becoming grim and morbid. And to my mind it's less far fetched than the idea that the Emperor specifically created a son to have fangs and a wolf-like personality who then got adopted by wolves by accident.



> To be honest I never was a fan of the Emperor using the Warp to help in his creation of the Primarchs as it just takes away some of the intrigue of the Emperor and his mysterious past as the Warp's power cannot be explained and there is no mystery behind it, it just is what it is.


The warp has pretty much always been a part of the creation of the Primarchs and especially with the creation of the Emperor himself. I don't really think it takes away from any mystery it simply changes it from "How did he create them?" to "Why/how did he create them in that manner?" which is still plenty interesting to me.



> The Emperor using the pinnacle of human science from the Dark Age of Technology was always a much more interesting route for GW to take I think because it shows you how far humanity reached in the sciences and shows you how much was lost afterwards.


That's still how he did it. The only thing that's been further explained is that this technology utilizes the warp, thus making it even more powerful and beyond anything that the current Imperium has.


Malus Darkblade said:


> But those are purely products of their warp based origins. Were we to take your theory into consideration, we would have to realize the Primarchs have a tie to their respective Legions that is stronger and more reliable than any means of communication navigators, psykers and the Astromican possess.


I thought you didn't beleive that they did have a warp based origin? 

And as far as the communication link goes it's hardly better than anything that a psyker can do. It's entirely non-verbal and appears largely uncontrolled. It's not like the Primarchs are directing the evolution of their sons through the warp so much as the two are evolving down similar paths at the same time. Sort of like the theory/belief that some twins can feel/tell what's happening to the other.



> Perhaps during their voyage to the planets they were found on, some of the Primarchs developed anomolies such as Sanguinius and his wings, etc.


While this works for some of the Primarchs changes it does raise several concerns. Either several Primarchs managed to coincidentally evolve random mutations that proved highly benificial, even necessary, to survival on the world they wound up on or someone/something guided that evolution. 



> Perhaps the Chaos powers also had a hand with the Primarchs and their respective traits/abilities during their voyage seeing as how it was they who seemingly chose what planets they would each land on.


You would think that the Emperor, upon being reunited with his sons would notice that something had tampered with them. The fact that he doesn't goes far beyond simply apathy and requires full blown idiocy if he did not plan for it. 



hailene said:


> Basically that, yes, the SW geneseed can work for off-worlders, just not on too many. Apparently at an insufficient rate that through battle attrition and other losses, a SM force using SW geneseed could not sustain itself indefinitely due to mutation.


Sounds perfectly acceptable. It's just that Phoebus' idea is more fun


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Well they don't use them. But there would still be a point. After all some members of the traitor legions remainded loyal during the Heresy. If gene-seed contains a link to the Primarch then they will inherit some of his skills and personality but that doesn't necessarily mean they will inherit his betrayal. Remember that many of the triators turned because of situational effects not because they simply insticitvely hated the Emperor.


All the Astartes were embedded with an unyielding desire to serve the Emperor so it took a powerful outside force to undo this IE the Primarchs/Chaos.

The ones who believed the Emperor had gone off-track were simply delusional and unaware of how they let Chaos seep into their souls. IMO.



MEQinc said:


> And to my mind it's less far fetched than the idea that the Emperor specifically created a son to have fangs and a wolf-like personality who then got adopted by wolves by accident.


So the Emperor found Russ and discovered how loyal he was and realized the potential he had to be a Primarch killer when he first met him/over the years? It sounds much more realistic the other way around imo.

Why is it hard to believe the Emperor put the Canis Helix DNA into Russ especially since the Emperor knews how powerful a wolf sense's are and how vicious they can be? Wolves have a very strong pack mentality so any other animal wouldn't do. 

Also let us not forget that the Wolves on Fenris are alien or Warp based and not actual wolves so we don't know if they even possess the superior senses, and pack mentality Terran wolves possessed and yet Russ and his sons had them in spades. 



MEQinc said:


> The warp has pretty much always been a part of the creation of the Primarchs and especially with the creation of the Emperor himself. I don't really think it takes away from any mystery it simply changes it from "How did he create them?" to "Why/how did he create them in that manner?" which is still plenty interesting to me.


It does because we don't know how much of the Primarchs creation was warp-based or scientific. Why limit yourself to only using 10% of Warp energy when you could go up to 90%? If it is the latter and it mostly is (explained below), then they were essentially daemons unaffiliated to any of the Chaos powers and loyal to the Emperor only.



MEQinc said:


> That's still how he did it. The only thing that's been further explained is that this technology utilizes the warp, thus making it even more powerful and beyond anything that the current Imperium has.


Again we don't know that because using the Warp and striking an *incredibly *dangerous deal with the Chaos powers to obtain some of their power implies he used mostly Warp energy in their creation rather than technology.



MEQinc said:


> I thought you didn't beleive that they did have a warp based origin?


Where did I say that? I simply said I am not a fan of their Warp-based origins.



MEQinc said:


> And as far as the communication link goes it's hardly better than anything that a psyker can do. It's entirely non-verbal and appears largely uncontrolled. It's not like the Primarchs are directing the evolution of their sons through the warp so much as the two are evolving down similar paths at the same time. Sort of like the theory/belief that some twins can feel/tell what's happening to the other.


Phoebus's theory suggests that the Primarchs had a subconscious ability to as you said, direct the evolution, of their sons on Terra which was light years away from their own planet and apparently did such a good job, tens of thousands of mortals were effected not to mention the extra gene-seed lying dormant in hidden laboratories without flaw.



MEQinc said:


> While this works for some of the Primarchs changes it does raise several concerns. Either several Primarchs managed to coincidentally evolve random mutations that proved highly benificial, even necessary, to survival on the world they wound up on or someone/something guided that evolution.


The Chaos powers invested heavily into the Primarchs. They were their the pieces on their chessboard battle with the Emperor that were instrumental to causing the Heresy. 

So it is not hard to imagine or at least for me that the Chaos powers, knowing which planets each would be found on, gave them abilities/mutations to help them better survive on their new homes.



MEQinc said:


> You would think that the Emperor, upon being reunited with his sons would notice that something had tampered with them. The fact that he doesn't goes far beyond simply apathy and requires full blown idiocy if he did not plan for it.


The Emperor probably was extremely scared that some of his sons would be corrupted by the Chaos powers and lost to him forever. But upon discovering them he probably probed their minds and had them tested to see if they were tainted but discovered they weren't other than possessing a few anomalies that weren't present in their original design.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The ones who believed the Emperor had gone off-track were simply delusional and unaware of how they let Chaos seep into their souls. IMO.


That's exactly my point. The betrayal wasn't genetic/physical so there's no particular reason why a stronger gene-link would cause new marines to turn.



> So the Emperor found Russ and discovered how loyal he was and realized the potential he had to be a Primarch killer when he first met him/over the years? It sounds much more realistic the other way around imo.


1) Russ being a Primarch killer is a theory. It is speculated by the Space Wolves themselves. There is no particularly strong reason to assume this is absolutely true.
2) The Emperor learning his sons personality and how to use it sounds unrealistic to you? In other words: The Emperor is incapable of manipulating/putting to use people that he has not built from the ground up. Hardly far-fetched. 



> Why is it hard to believe the Emperor put the Canis Helix DNA into Russ especially since the Emperor knews how powerful a wolf sense's are and how vicious they can be? Wolves have a very strong pack mentality so any other animal wouldn't do.


Because A) he doesn't appear to have modified any of the other Primarchs in this way and as wolves are obviously awesome there's no reason not to and B) the Canis Helix does far more (and more damaging) things to an individual than merely giving them better senses and a pack mentality. Further, I was explictedly commenting on the sheer coincidence required for an individual designed as such to have then been adopted by wolves. 



> Also let us not forget that the Wolves on Fenris are alien or Warp based and not actual wolves so we don't know if they even possess the superior senses, and pack mentality Terran wolves possessed and yet Russ and his sons had them in spades.


Well they clearly do have a pack mentality. As far as the senses go, it's pretty heavily indicated. After all if the Space Wolves did not beleive that they were similar to wolves (Fenrisian wolves, as those are the only kind they will have ever encountered) why would they continue to call themselves 'Wolves' and so throughly tie that image to themselves?



> Again we don't know that because using the Warp and striking an *incredibly *dangerous deal with the Chaos powers to obtain some of their power implies he used mostly Warp energy in their creation rather than technology.


A daemon states that the Emperor made a deal. This doesn't mean he did. As I have stated in other threads: I believe the Emperor used some warp energy in making the Primarchs and that the Gods viewed this as 'making a deal' because they believe the power is inherently theirs. 

Going off that interpretation then the technology to draw, channel and control the warp in such a specific manner is obviously quite powerful. 



> Phoebus's theory suggests that the Primarchs had a subconscious ability to as you said, direct the evolution, of their sons on Terra which was light years away from their own planet and apparently did such a good job, tens of thousands of mortals were effected not to mention the extra gene-seed lying dormant in hidden laboratories without flaw.


1) I explictedly stated that they didn't direct the evolution.
2) Over the course of several decades numerous individuals were granted minor changes that patterned off massive evolutionary steps taken by the Primarchs in a couple days/month. 
3) I never said there were no flaws. I think it's highly likely that several marines would've suffered complications as a result. The wulfen change for example, happens to all Space Wovles but noticably not to Russ himself.
4) Either it happened in this way or the Gods/Emperor managed to tinker with the Terran marines to match them up without anybody noticing. Or they stopped using Terran gene-seed without anybody noticing/mentioning it.



> So it is not hard to imagine or at least for me that the Chaos powers, knowing which planets each would be found on, gave them abilities/mutations to help them better survive on their new homes.


It seems odd that they would give helpful mutations to individuals they did not anticipate turning.



> The Emperor probably was extremely scared that some of his sons would be corrupted by the Chaos powers and lost to him forever. But upon discovering them he probably probed their minds and had them tested to see if they were tainted but discovered they weren't other than possessing a few anomalies that weren't present in their original design.


So he's concerned about their possibly being corrupted but not about the wings/crazy eyes/fangs and so on that are obvious indicators that someone has been messing with them? If he'd probed their minds you'd think he would've noticed Curze's split personality, halluciations and general depression; or Angron's crazy rages; or Lorgar's extremely dogmatic personality (implied to be hard-wired). He failed to deal with any of these things which makes it seem like he either didn't scan them (seems most likely) or dismissed these clear mental instabilities as not related to them being mutated (which is just silly if he knows Chaos has been playing with them).


At the end of the day though it's just a fan theory so you're free to dismiss it. I personally like it, so I'm going to defend it but you're free to do whatever.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc has covered me precisely. I did want to address one thing, though:



Malus Darkblade said:


> Phoebus's theory suggests that the Primarchs had a subconscious ability to as you said, direct the evolution, of their sons on Terra which was light years away from their own planet and apparently did such a good job, tens of thousands of mortals were effected not to mention the extra gene-seed lying dormant in hidden laboratories without flaw.


What I stated was that using the Warp to create the Primarchs inadvertently led to a mystical link between Primarch and Gene-seed. The Gene-seed changed as if it were an extension of the Primarch's body. Nothing conscious or subconscious about it. *Un*conscious and automatic, rather.

Is there a source that says the Gene-seed in the various laboratories is flawless? I find that difficult to reconcile with, given the fact that a new Chapter based on the Blood Angels would suffer from the Red Thirst and Black Rage as surely as a Chapter descended from the Imperial Fists would lack a Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane. 'Cause lets face it, otherwise, the first time the Adeptus Mechanicus received tithe from the Fists and their Betcher's Gland was screwed, they could have just used the supposedly pure Gene-seed in storage as a stop-gap measure and figured out what the Chapter was doing that led to losing said organs. Even assuming the Ad Mech couldn't do it, or the Fists found some holy reason in those two organs failing, the non-damaged Gene-seed could still have been cultivated indefinitely for the purposes of founding new Chapters. That didn't happen, though, and it doesn't make sense unless there wasn't pure Gene-seed to begin with.

Beyond that, my biggest issue with your theory - no offense! - is that it depends so much on coincidence. E.g., the Emperor purposely making Russ wolf-like, and then Russ _just happening_ to fall on a planet named after a mythological wolf and populated by super-wolves. The idea of the Emperor doing all that strikes me as apocryphal as the tales of Alexander impressing the hell out of Persian ambassadors when he was but ten years old: the latter being fiction meant to impress on someone how great the man was.

The only way it wouldn't be coincidental is if the Emperor had a hand in depositing his Primarchs to their respective planets. Of course, you must then reconcile with the idea that the Emperor found it to his benefit to scatter his sons away from him, depriving himself of superhuman genius warlords and limiting the number of Astartes he could create at any given time. It also pretty much goes hand-in-hand with the idea that he knew Angron, Curze, Mortarion, Magnus, etc., would be put in places that would set them up with failure. That's pretty much the logic used by the "The Emperor planned the Heresy!" camp. :wink:

If you're prepared to accept this, then fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Is there a source that says the Gene-seed in the various laboratories is flawless? I find that difficult to reconcile with, given the fact that a new Chapter based on the Blood Angels would suffer from the Red Thirst and Black Rage as surely as a Chapter descended from the Imperial Fists would lack a Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane. 'Cause lets face it, otherwise, the first time the Adeptus Mechanicus received tithe from the Fists and their Betcher's Gland was screwed, they could have just used the supposedly pure Gene-seed in storage as a stop-gap measure and figured out what the Chapter was doing that led to losing said organs. Even assuming the Ad Mech couldn't do it, or the Fists found some holy reason in those two organs failing, the non-damaged Gene-seed could still have been cultivated indefinitely for the purposes of founding new Chapters. That didn't happen, though, and it doesn't make sense unless there wasn't pure Gene-seed to begin with.


I was talking about pre-Heresy and pre30K even when the Emperor just began recruiting Astartes and implanting them with gene-seed. I am sure at that point in time, all the gene-seed was perfect and the few/major flaws would only manifest thousands of years later.



Phoebus said:


> Beyond that, my biggest issue with your theory - no offense! - is that it depends so much on coincidence. E.g., the Emperor purposely making Russ wolf-like, and then Russ _just happening_ to fall on a planet named after a mythological wolf and populated by super-wolves. The idea of the Emperor doing all that strikes me as apocryphal as the tales of Alexander impressing the hell out of Persian ambassadors when he was but ten years old: the latter being fiction meant to impress on someone how great the man was.


Well we know for certain that the Emperor did not choose the planets the Primarchs landed on. 

Perhaps the Chaos powers had a sense of humor? Or more seriously perhaps they hoped the superstitious Viking'esque natives of Fenris whose culture revolved around wolves and all that since the original colonists attempted to recreate ancient Norway, would turn Russ into another religious fanatic? 

I can most certainly see Russ having the potential to becoming just like Lorgar.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I get what you were saying about "pure" Gene-seed. Fair enough, but one of the things I qualified in my theory was that it took the Wolf Brothers centuries to mutate dangerously, and that the Emperor got the V Legio to Fenris before that could happen.

That, of course, didn't work for everyone. For instance, I'd posit that Magnus' experimentations might have had something to do with the spontaneous mutations of the Thousand Sons. That's just more conjecture on my part, though.

Either way, "highly adaptive creature" strikes me as more likely (given super-technology mixed with the Warp) than "Emperor makes wolf-like Primarch... and there just happens to be a wolf world for him to be deposited on".

Agree to disagree, I guess.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Say that Im wrong but I was under the impression it was Fenris itself that surpressed the Wulfen trait, that when the Space Wolves returned back home, they were calm. Kinda likes it auora (the Wyrd that the priest explains, another word for the Warp?) protecting them. When being on another planet, that surpressing matter does not exist and corruption is more likely to occur.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Nope, the Space Wolf books have recruits in the Fang and out and about in Asaheim going all hairy and wulfen on them.

The wulfen thing is suggested as a thing for people native to Fenris in those books. Whether they're old hat and not classed as a good source I don't know.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

TheReverend said:


> I just choose to ignore this minor detail...


Thus we see the solution to any fluff that troubles you.

Ignore it, put your fingers in your ears and do the "la la la, I can't hear you" thing and hope it goes away.

Works for me.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> None taken. Like I said, it relies heavily on the supernatural. With that in mind, though, it's no more a stretch than, say, Corax turning invisible... or Magnus' evolutionary eyesight.


Personally I thought about this one for a moment and, I'll admit, I kinda like it. And if it's true, gives credence to my theory, after all MY Primarch is dead *eyebrow waggle*
Also helps explain the sheer genetic variance in Ultramarines descendants.




Phoebus said:


> Is it not useless anyways, though? It's not as if they're using it. Truth be told I have no idea why they're keeping, period.


Sentimental value?


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