# How much does the average Imperial citizen know about "current events?"



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Just how much does the Imperium tell its citizens about the galaxy? I know that the Imperium tries to keep daemons a secret, but that seems a bit impractical to me: Only one imperial organization executes soldiers after fighting daemons. (Ordo Malleus.) In fact, if the 1st Kronus Liberators take the Deimos Peninsula, the epilogue states that one company received the nickname "Demon hunters." 

But back to the question: Do they know about the Horus Heresy? (It would be pretty hard to cover that up!) Or about the 'nids?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's not difficult to cover up the Horus Heresy- most (i.e 99.9%) Imperial Citizens don't even know that half of the Emperor's 'Angels' fell to the dark powers, some Imperial Citizens would know about the Tyranids (basically some of the ones on the Eastern Fringe) but not in any great detail other than they're a xenos threat. 

The Imperial Guard don't know much about their various foes and civilians know significantly less, on some worlds that haven't been attacked for hundreds or thousands of years they may even regards races other than humanity as mere myths.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> It's not difficult to cover up the Horus Heresy- most (i.e 99.9%) Imperial Citizens don't even know that half of the Emperor's 'Angels' fell to the dark powers, some Imperial Citizens would know about the Tyranids (basically some of the ones on the Eastern Fringe) but not in any great detail other than they're a xenos threat.
> 
> The Imperial Guard don't know much about their various foes and civilians know significantly less, on some worlds that haven't been attacked for hundreds or thousands of years they may even regards races other than humanity as mere myths.


Well, it is rather difficult to explain why Empy isn't walking around and beating the crap out of enemies. Also, the Imperium regularly warns its citizens about "heresy" and "aliens." So it must aknowledge the existence of both as a threat.

And plus, that doesn't explain the "demon hunters" nickname.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

"The ancient events of the Horus Heresy have long since passed into myth within the Imperium. The average Imperial citizen is entirely ignorant of the tumultuous events of the Imperium's founding... Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved by the daemonhunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself." - _Codex: Chaos Space Marines (4th Edition)_, Page 17.

There are other sources which state similar things, but the general point is the same. The Imperium (Inquisition in particular) want to supress all knowledge of the Heresy and Chaos, for they fear that if the oppressed masses had access to knowledge of such things it would turn out to be too much of a temptation.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I think the imperium prefers to just kill masses of people instead of tell them anything important, its easier, or just leave them to be slaughtered by whatever it is that might be about at the time.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> I think the imperium prefers to just kill masses of people instead of tell them anything important, its easier, or just leave them to be slaughtered by whatever it is that might be about at the time.


For one thing, they probably don't do that with orks. Otherwise, the entire Imperial frontier would have been executed by now. :laugh:

But second, as I said, I only know of one organization that executes soldiers after they fight daemons. That is the Ordo Malleus. In other situations like the Dark Crusade and the Kaurava Conflict, not only were Imperial Guard soldiers not executed afterwards, but the generals allowed knowledge of the fight to seep into the general public of the planet. (One of the kronus liberator companies recieved the nickname "demon hunters," while Stubbs in soulstorm declared that the victory over Alpha Legion would be marked with a system holiday where effigies of CSMs were burned.)

If that isn't acknowledging the existance of some chaos, then I don't know what is.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, it is rather difficult to explain why Empy isn't walking around and beating the crap out of enemies. Also, the Imperium regularly warns its citizens about "heresy" and "aliens." So it must aknowledge the existence of both as a threat.
> 
> And plus, that doesn't explain the "demon hunters" nickname.


Not if most citizens never knew that he used to lead his followers directly like a man, of course the Imperium warns it's citizens against Heresy- they're a monotheist dominated society but that has nothing to do with the Horus Heresy. And the xenos comment- you assume that all planets are told the same, only ones that come into contact regularly with aliens (one way or another) have it drummed into them again and again about the dangers of the xenos.

Well sometimes there are very, very rare exceptions but I can believe that the Inquistion is going to come calling sooner or later to 'fix' the problem of Kronus, they resettled Armageddon because they thought the original citizens knew too much after the 1st War- Kronus is no where near as important so if the knowledge regarding Chaos is as widespread as you suggest then they may simply enact exterminatus.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Platypus5 said:


> For one thing, they probably don't do that with orks. Otherwise, the entire Imperial frontier would have been executed by now. :laugh:


so?, the imperium doesn't give a shit really, they'll murder millions for no good reason other than they want to and they can and then repopulate before anyone even notices and do it all over again if they like.


Platypus5 said:


> (One of the kronus liberator companies recieved the nickname "demon hunters," while Stubbs in soulstorm declared that the victory over Alpha Legion would be marked with a system holiday where effigies of CSMs were burned.)
> 
> If that isn't acknowledging the existance of some chaos, then I don't know what is.


if the fluff is from DOW, then I'm afraid it's probably a load of bullshit, just like the entire series, its about as cannon to 40k as star wars is to star trek


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Unfortunately Platypus...... 

Baron Spikey and Stella are right. I know you like to think/see/hope for the brighter side of things, but when it comes to Xenos and Chaos the Imperium has an "exterminus first, we wipe you out if you ask questions" policy.

After the latest Armageddon War for example....Most SM Chapters were only concerned with the erradication of the Orks, not the saftey of the general populace. (Exception being Space Wolves and Salamanders, I think). Speaking of the Space Wolves.....there is an excerpt in their codex about, I believe, Armageddon. In which, they fought along side Militia and IG against a horde of chaos, which if I am correct, was Angron's last incursion. After, all soldiers who fought along side the Imperial forces were rounded up and put in slave camps....which infuriated Logan Grimnar. So, on multiple occasions the Imperium has shown their lack of mercy for the few, for the betterment of the many.

I also would take the fluff from DoW with a grain of salt. Alot of it hasn't been confirmed as cannon, so its dicey at best. And like what was already said, if the situation on Kronos is true, well they'll be getting a visit from the Ordo Malleus and a large Imperial fleet very soon.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Imperial citizens are told what they need to know and nothing more. And what they need to know is next to nothing. Most citizens are aware of things like Orks and Eldar, and most on the Eastern Fringe do know of the Tyranids as well. Chaos however is kept as secret as possible, no citizens know of the Heresy and Guardsmen and Navy personnel are told only when they need to be aware, as in before they are attacked by Chaos, or are going to battle with them.

However the 13th Black Crusade may have changed a bit of knowledge about Chaos, not sure on that yet.


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## pariha (Dec 1, 2009)

one thing ive noticed is that the DoW games are really not that good to the 40k fluff or rules or characters.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I dont agree with that. I like Gabriel Angelos and Scout-Sergeant Cyrus, and the Blood Ravens have some pretty good fluff. Davian Thule, Dreadnought Thule, is pretty cool as well.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

It is still possible for the Kronus liberators to still be around/not executed and keep their "Demon Hunter" moniker, they could have been permanently inducted by the Inquisition (Nobody expects the imperial inquisition!) to be used as shock troopers against chaos excursions (after careful screening).

But in all reality chances are they we're just sent to the execution chambers, why save the lives of thousands men to endanger the lives of billions


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, in this case, shouldn't the entire population of Cadia be executed?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, in this case, shouldn't the entire population of Cadia be executed?


Because that’s an effective solution. lol:no:


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I thought the Imperium's population _does_ know about the Heresy. Not the way we know it, but as part of the tragic story of the Emperor. Horus and the fallen Primarchs are fallen angels who rebelled against the Emperor and nearly killed him. Fortunately the Emperor survived and now protects the Imperium from his Golden Throne. Horus has become a boogie man to scare children. The Imperial Cult didn't deny the facts, but turned fact into myth. Direct suppression of the Heresy would be impossible. What would you do if you survived the Heresy and found out your kids were being taught the Heresy didn't happen? It would be like our schools teaching World War 2 didn't happen.

You have to relocate the population of Armageddon, not because they've been corrupted, but because some of them may have stumbled onto one of the Imperium's darkest secrets: Angron isn't a myth from the dusty pages of the Imperial Bible, but a real live lord of Hell. You ship them somewhere where forbidden truths won't get off planet and cause panics, and the Imperium still benefits from their coerced labor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, in this case, shouldn't the entire population of Cadia be executed?


Cadia is one of the few exceptions. The whole purpose of Cadia is to defend and maintain the Cadian Gate against Chaos incursions, they wouldn't be very effective at that job if their population kept getting massacred by the Inquisition.

Although that having been said, they are closely monitored by the Inquisition for corruption. Cadia suffers hundreds/thousands of Chaos Cult uprisings annually and they live pretty much as close as you can get to the Eye of Terror, it would be next to impossible to hide the existence of Chaos from them.

Ultimately its all about what is for the Greater Good of the Imperium. Would it be better to continually massacre the Cadian population because they are aware of Chaos, or maintain a fighting fit and stern population ready to repel Chaos incursions? Obviously the latter option, but as long as their (especially command staff) closely monitored. With other worlds though, the latter option doesn't even come into the equation so Imperial forces don't hesitate to enslave or massacre whole populations simply because a few may have gained knowledge of Chaos.



randian said:


> I thought the Imperium's population _does_ know about the Heresy. Not the way we know it, but as part of the tragic story of the Emperor. Horus and the fallen Primarchs are fallen angels who rebelled against the Emperor and nearly killed him. Fortunately the Emperor survived and now protects the Imperium from his Golden Throne. Horus has become a boogie man to scare children. The Imperial Cult didn't deny the facts, but turned fact into myth.


There are two main reasons I can see why Imperial authorities would want to keep everyone ignorant of the Heresy:

1) - It spreads knowledge about the existence and effects of Chaos. The Inquisition has long strove to supress such knowledge, for fear it would prove too tempting to the average citizen.

2) - It would make the Emperor and Primarchs look fallible. Citizens may view the situation as 'Why should we worship someone who failed, and was wrong, is he even a god?' - This is supported in the novel _Lord of the Night_ when Zso Sahaal informs his human companion about the Heresy and Horus leading the rebellion, and she is literally horrified, her faith in the Emperor shaken, and I think she actually physically vomits.. 



randian said:


> Direct suppression of the Heresy would be impossible. What would you do if you survived the Heresy and found out your kids were being taught the Heresy didn't happen? It would be like our schools teaching World War 2 didn't happen.


That is a weak comparison. The Second World War ended 65 years ago. The Horus Heresy ended over 10,000 years ago (do you think the Second World War will be remembered in 10,000 years?) - It would also be fairly simple to supress knowledge of the Heresy given that the Imperium maintains a vile, tyrannical regime.



randian said:


> You have to relocate the population of Armageddon, not because they've been corrupted, but because some of them may have stumbled onto one of the Imperium's darkest secrets: Angron isn't a myth from the dusty pages of the Imperial Bible, but a real live lord of Hell. You ship them somewhere where forbidden truths won't get off planet and cause panics, and the Imperium still benefits from their coerced labor.


The population of Armageddon following the first war were 'relocated' due to the apparent widespread corruption and knowledge of Chaos where it was not necessary. Also, would they have actually been aware that the Daemon was Angron?


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

and going back to the DOW1 campaigns and expansions i think it can be fairly safely assumed that either the space marines won or chaos won and exterminated everything that didn't immediately roll over and start spewing incoherent babble about the chaos tellitubbies so the imp guard endings are pretty much dismissable.


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## Shield of Faith (Dec 18, 2009)

According to "Sons of Dorn" casual people remember Horus Heresy as a mythological tale and most of them believe that daemons and xenos don't exist.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Speaking of Xenos in the short story Mercy Run, a band of civilians were making there way to an evac point and had been told that orks were scared off by shouting at them.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That is a weak comparison. The Second World War ended 65 years ago. The Horus Heresy ended over 10,000 years ago (do you think the Second World War will be remembered in 10,000 years?) - It would also be fairly simple to supress knowledge of the Heresy given that the Imperium maintains a vile, tyrannical regime.


Absolutely right! 65 years on and just see how the history of that war has already been distorted (the victors write the history). In a generation from now, the true history of WW2 will be so far from the truth that it would not bear any real resemblence to what actually happened.
Can you imagine that WW2 would even warrant a page in the history books of 40K? :crazy:
Careful manipulation by the powers to be, would certainly gloss over the Heresy and as for Chaos... whats that? :security: What are you talking about? Why are the Inquisition at my front doo....:suicide:


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Brother Emund said:


> Absolutely right! 65 years on and just see how the history of that war has already been distorted (the victors write the history). In a generation from now, the true history of WW2 will be so far from the truth that it would not bear any real resemblence to what actually happened.


Hey Emund, could you PM just which details you believe have been obscured/distorted, I'm interested in what facts these might be, I just don't want to hijack the thread.:laugh:

I reckon 99% of the population don't actually give a hoot of the wider imperium, they probably only care about news in their hive/work section. After all look at the apathy many people here on earth feel towards distant countries (with the exception of violent clashes/natural disasters ect) and magnify that to a galactic scale.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Brother Emund said:


> In a generation from now, the true history of WW2 will be so far from the truth that it would not bear any real resemblence to what actually happened.


in a generation from now?, todays retarded generation have never even heard of WWII, you ask a kid who was hitler and he would probably think it was some crappy rapper or pop singer, we don't need another generation to distort the truth of WWII, its already been forgotten by the uncaring idiotic violent stupid generation of today.


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

I don't believe that to be true Stella, I'm only 13 and I've read books and watched too many docos about WWII, Churchill and Hitler.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Snowy said:


> I don't believe that to be true Stella, I'm only 13 and I've read books and watched too many docos about WWII, Churchill and Hitler.


To be honest I think you're in an increasing minority, it's a shame but kids today are ignorant little turds on the whole.

Back on topic.

What each world does or does not know will vary wildly from one place to another. You have to remember that some worlds are barely into the dark ages technologically and that on those worlds only a very select few will even know of the existance of the Imperium let alone anything else.
To most worlds in the Imperium even the Space Marines are just a myth, vengeful angels that blaze through the sky on wings of fire. 
Even on more advanced worlds the basic citizens will know very little of what goes on outside of their own lives. Only the ruling classes have some clue and I would imagine that would only be a vague idea.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

True enough, and Space Marines would be a very rare sight indeed. Your average citizen would never come across one in their life time and know of them only from books and legend


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

Snowy said:


> I don't believe that to be true Stella, I'm only 13 and I've read books and watched too many docos about WWII, Churchill and Hitler.


thats because its an australian thing, we actually care about what happened, others don't


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kale Hellas said:


> thats because its an australian thing, we actually care about what happened, others don't


I think thats a bit of a generalisation!


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Kale Hellas said:


> thats because its an australian thing, we actually care about what happened, others don't


It's got nothing to do with being Australian and everything to do with being a nerd who plays with plastic space men. 
Certain sections of society will pay attention to things that others find no interest in, if playing war games is your thing then I would expect you to know about WWII. If, on the other hand, drinking WKD and throwing stones at old people is how you get your kicks then knowing about WWII isn't going to be too high on your list of priorities.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> If, on the other hand, drinking WKD and throwing stones at old people is how you get your kicks then knowing about WWII isn't going to be too high on your list of priorities.


'Sigh' you just described my nephews and the entire freshman class of my grad year, I felt like a genius in the classes with fresh..


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Damn educational system

Anyway, I believe GW has already stated that the Space Marine ending was the fluff ending in DoW: DC, so the 'Daemon Hunters' don't really exist in GW's mind. But, in Soulstorm, I believe the Imperial Guard ending was the canon ending, so, if they burn CSM stuff on a holiday...well, I suppose they will be expecting a visit from the inquisition.

Now, I believe that the ministorum teaches that the Emperor was never injured, by anyone, but had in fact ascended to the Golden Throne, and thus Godhood.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I would you all to take a look at this from the old Tyranids codex, I would safely assume some worlds at least are quite open about xenos at least and they warn the population.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, I know that Goge Vandire had videos of him "receiving" gifts broadcasted around the Imperium. (Note: the people were forced to give gifts to him at gunpoint.)

And I know about the "right to settlement" of the Imperial Guard. In that case, it wouldn't be long before the regiment's exploits were known across the planet, if not the system.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, I know that Goge Vandire had videos of him "receiving" gifts broadcasted around the Imperium. (Note: the people were forced to give gifts to him at gunpoint.)
> 
> And I know about the "right to settlement" of the Imperial Guard. In that case, it wouldn't be long before the regiment's exploits were known across the planet, if not the system.


Some of the Regiment's exploits- what they're allowed to reveal, reveal too much and the higher ups find out then the Regiment can kiss it's new homeworld good bye cause they'll never see it again.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Some of the Regiment's exploits- what they're allowed to reveal, reveal too much and the higher ups find out then the Regiment can kiss it's new homeworld good bye cause they'll never see it again.


When you have 5,000 surviving soldiers, it is hard to prevent one of them from saying while drunk in a bar, "Oh ya, well your story is nothing compared to how my squad managed to bring down a chaos marine by ourselves!"


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

There will still be Commissars and propaganda machines, so if one soldier shoots his mouth off e'll be executed and depending on the severity of the situation a propaganda campaign will be launched saying his claims were a lie or if it's bad that town/village will be rounded up and mind wiped/killed.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

The Imperium Seems to be quite Stalin-esque with it's propaganda, secret police and changing/erasing of history. And they're the "good guys", if such a thing exists in 40k.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> The Imperium Seems to be quite Stalin-esque with it's propaganda, secret police and changing/erasing of history. And they're the "good guys", if such a thing exists in 40k.


I should think so. The Imperium really is the only place that a human(most of us) can live, at the very least, a content life. Besides, there's a chance you could live on a Paradise World. That wouldn't be the worst way to live.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Kale Hellas said:


> thats because its an australian thing, we actually care about what happened, others don't


Not necessarily. I acknowledge that WW2 was an important time, but I do not overly dwell on the past. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think thats a bit of a generalisation!


Quite. I know plenty of aussie kids who don`t give a fuck. Irritates the shit out of me.



SteelSpectre said:


> Damn educational system


Damn straight! Our history syllabus included the american civil war and relations with the native americans! WTF?! Do american students learn about the colonisation of the First Fleet and the oppression of the aborigines? :ireful2: 

Any american students, if your history includes anything on Australian history, PM me, I`m interested to know.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> When you have 5,000 surviving soldiers, it is hard to prevent one of them from saying while drunk in a bar, "Oh ya, well your story is nothing compared to how my squad managed to bring down a chaos marine by ourselves!"


Just one soldier saying something in a bar would not make it galaxy wide knowledge. 5,000 surviving soldiers is nothing in an Imperium of billions if not trillions. People seperated by light years and who's most reliable form of communication is the mad ramblings of a few sanctioned Psykers.
Add to that the fact that information is actively repressed, distorted and manipulated and what one soldier says in one place means nothing to anyone anywhere else.
Of those billions or trillions the vast majority have no knowledge of anything outside of their own habitation/factory hives. If they are 'fortunate' enough to live on a developed world the most they can expect is a short life working themselves to death for an Empire that tells you you're worthless. 
If you are lucky enough to live on a paradise world you are there for a reason, probably because you hold some incredibly high rank within the Imperium. If that is the case then you would know a lot more than the average citizen, because you are not the average citizen.
Unless you are high ranking then you are nothing more than a cog in the wheel of the Imperium, of no more use as an individual than a single piece of coal or a block of iron. You are not a person you are a commodity.


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## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

The soul Drinkers novels have some interesting viewpoints on the Imperium and this sort of thing. About how the human race isn't Some shining white knight on a magnificent noble steed. It's dirty, dangerous, unfair and corrupted by greed all over the place, and not really much better then chaos itself. If I was to be anywhere, let it be a quiet agri world with a low population that supplies food to surrounding sub sectors, even the imperium would hesitate to let that many planets starve. Hell, or work with the Tau :biggrin:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Not necessarily. I acknowledge that WW2 was an important time, but I do not overly dwell on the past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope we don't I, I wish.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Not necessarily. I acknowledge that WW2 was an important time, but I do not overly dwell on the past.
> 
> Quite. I know plenty of aussie kids who don`t give a fuck. Irritates the shit out of me.
> 
> ...


It is things like this that make me ashamed to be an American. People say we are dumb and fat. Oftentimes, that assumption is correct. I try to be better than the average "American idiot." 

At least I know who Kevin Rudd is, if that is of any comfort. While I must admit that my knowledge on Austrailian politics is sketchy, most other Americans don't even know who James Cameron is... And he is the leader of the UK for god's sake!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> It is things like this that make me ashamed to be an American. People say we are dumb and fat. Oftentimes, that assumption is correct. I try to be better than the average "American idiot."
> 
> At least I know who Kevin Rudd is, if that is of any comfort. While I must admit that my knowledge on Austrailian politics is sketchy, most other Americans don't even know who James Cameron is... And he is the leader of the UK for god's sake!


James Cameron is an American Director- David Cameron is the Prime Minister :laugh:


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> James Cameron is an American Director- David Cameron is the Prime Minister :laugh:


I rest my case about Americans like myself.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

The real reason why the imperium is almost completely unaware of the majority of conflicts is that the galactic news and communications stations are ran by Glen Beck.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> The real reason why the imperium is almost completely unaware of the majority of conflicts is that the galactic news and communications stations are ran by Glen Beck.


You bring up a valid point, but I would say it's a little bit different than that. It is more aching to the current situation in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, where the only imagery coming from the area is approved by the Israeli propaganda agency. 

The imperium also practices selective teaching, only letting it's followers learn what is beneficial for the Imperium. Anything else could be deemed difficult for the Imperial Creed. 

Much like they are doing in Texas  
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6950541.html

Anyways, this might've gone a wee bit off into something belonging to another part of the forums


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Nope we don't I, I wish.


Didn`t think so...



Platypus5 said:


> It is things like this that make me ashamed to be an American. People say we are dumb and fat. Oftentimes, that assumption is correct. I try to be better than the average "American idiot."
> 
> At least I know who Kevin Rudd is, if that is of any comfort. While I must admit that my knowledge on Austrailian politics is sketchy, most other Americans don't even know who James Cameron is... And he is the leader of the UK for god's sake!


I try not to stereotype, but I`m not one to rush to America`s defence either. When you`ve seen a group of yankee tourists who epitomise the american stereotype (Seriously, stupid sun hats, I love Oz Tshirts, thick accents, the works), it can be hard to take them seriously.



Baron Spikey said:


> James Cameron is an American Director- David Cameron is the Prime Minister :laugh:


It was an honest mistake. I have given up on trying to follow politics. They`re all as stupid as each other.



Platypus5 said:


> I rest my case about Americans like myself.


At least you`re honest. And at least you`re making an effort. The internet is so educational. :biggrin: Heresy ftw!


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

offtopic: no americans have no accent. its all you other peoples who have an accent. lol just kidding, of cuarse we have an accent when all you hear is people who talk like you and when you hear someone different it is always a shock.

ontopic: i agree with cruor. they want what is good for them and screw anything or one who doesn't agree.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> I rest my case about Americans like myself.


That's okay, it wasn't till relatively recently (watching Smallville of all things) that I found out you have State Senates! I just assumed you had the national Senate and that was it...and this is after I did 2 years of American & British History and Politics :aggressive:


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64016

decided to make a new thread in off topic. In hindsight I guess I should have put it in world news...


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

BUT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC:

I frankly think the threat of people turning to chaos at a higher rate if they learned about its full powers is overblown. When you look at Chaos, it really isn't that appealing.

The Imperium could in fact use it to bolster people's fears of heresy. They could point at the demons and chaos marines and say "Do you want these horrors on your world? Report heretics!" They could then use things like Great Unclean Ones as sort of Chaos boogeymen to scare the population into obedience. 

Really, who wants to worship a rotting ball of pus?

A similar thing for the gray knights: How would knowledge of their existence come to any harm.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Lets see what does the Imperium offer? 
A boring, monotonous existence, which can be incredibly short, and filled with war. Even if your lucky enough to be born on a peaceful world out of harms way you'd still be living a normal life that will nearly always have no great meaning.

What does Chaos offer?
Power, even a chance at immortality. All they require is your worship. They give their followers a life of meaning, the chance to become more powerful, more influential, a life outside the monotony of the everyday citizen. A chance to leave a mark in the universe. IMO keeping the existence of Chaos a secret is one of the smartest things the Imperium has done, you can't be tempted if you're ignorant.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

I personally believe they should include chaos in the mythology that is the Eccseliarchy. If you live a good life and are loyal to the Imperium, you go to the Emperor, where life ain't bad. If your bad, or worship chaos, they may promise you nice things, but you'll be tortured for all eternity by daemons. I think that may be the reason why there is such a difference in number between christians and satanist cults here on Earth.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> I frankly think the threat of people turning to chaos at a higher rate if they learned about its full powers is overblown. When you look at Chaos, it really isn't that appealing.


The Imperium is a vile, corrupt, unjust and tyrannical regime. Chaos represents freedom from a life of boredom, hard labour, injustice and worthlessness. 



Platypus5 said:


> Really, who wants to worship a rotting ball of pus?


Its easy to say that from our perspective. But from in-game, Imperial citizens know nothing of Chaos - they don't know what happens to Chaos worshippers further down the path. Willing followers of Khorne turn to the god and view him as a god of honour and martial prowess, they don't realise until its too late that he is actually the Blood God and solely desires wild slaughter. Similarily people turn to Nurgle to escape famine, disease and death. Nurgle grants his followers with immortality and is a kind and proud patron. But eventually willing followers of Nurgle realise only too late that they have become the very things they sought to escape, disease and death personified.

"In an Imperium that is harsh and unforgiving, power is held by a few and the majority of citizens live in a numbing existence of drugery and depredation. Yet no matter how broken a man's will is, how much the lash scars his back, there remains a spark of hope, of a desire for something more. Power is all but impossible to gain by conventional means, yet there are other ways to rise to prominence... Chaos." - _Codex: Chaos Daemons_, Page 23.

There is also individual reasons and examples for why oridinary humans may turn to Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh on page 9-10 of _Codex: Chaos Space Marines_.

You also have to remember that Chaos represents the base desires of mortals. They are those desires and passions manifested, and appear to be exactly what every mortal longs for and dreams of. I have no doubt in my mind that if knowledge of Chaos was widespread and uncontained, the Imperium would have fallen already.



SteelSpectre said:


> I personally believe they should include chaos in the mythology that is the Eccseliarchy. If you live a good life and are loyal to the Imperium, you go to the Emperor, where life ain't bad. If your bad, or worship chaos, they may promise you nice things, but you'll be tortured for all eternity by daemons. I think that may be the reason why there is such a difference in number between christians and satanist cults here on Earth.


Chaos is very real in the 40k galaxy. People are directly tempted and are given a taste of the power that can be theirs. Your soul going to the Emperor when you die is just the belief of the deluded Ecclesiarchy, Chaos actually offers you power and freedom, where as the Imperium tries to supress you even being aware of such comodities. 

And Modern Satanism is probably not as bad as you think it is, read up on it.


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## UlricKessler (Jun 7, 2010)

The whole of the Horus Heresy itself is a mirrored version of the war between Lucifer and God if you think about it. Granted with quite a few aesthetic differences and such, at it's core it's still the same.

The Imperium rules through fear and ignorance, and while some may say that's a bad thing, in the universe of 40k, ignorance is bliss. I have to agree that if the masses knew the full extent of Chaos, things would grow vastly out of control.


I think that's another reason why things like Chaos Marines and such have such a horrifying reaction in most 'regular' imperials, is that it's their boogeyman brought to life, everything they always took for granted is glaring at them with murderous intent now. The impossible just became fact, and to quote (kinda) that asian guy from the american series Dexter, "Fact is one cold hearted b**ch with a twelve inch strap on"........or a daemonette of slaanesh, either way it's scary.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Imperium is a vile, corrupt, unjust and tyrannical regime. Chaos represents freedom from a life of boredom, hard labour, injustice and worthlessness.
> 
> Its easy to say that from our perspective. But from in-game, Imperial citizens know nothing of Chaos - they don't know what happens to Chaos worshippers further down the path. Willing followers of Khorne turn to the god and view him as a god of honour and martial prowess, they don't realise until its too late that he is actually the Blood God and solely desires wild slaughter. Similarily people turn to Nurgle to escape famine, disease and death. Nurgle grants his followers with immortality and is a kind and proud patron. But eventually willing followers of Nurgle realise only too late that they have become the very things they sought to escape, disease and death personified.
> 
> ...


First of all, in the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages, life was shitty, but using the Devil as a boogeyman still worked. Not that many satan cults arose! Or look at the Soviet Union and the Western democracies. A similar thing occured in the former group.

Second, well of course you don't want to tell the people that Khorne is all about military honor! You want to depict Khorne as a completely evil boogeyman who has no redeeming qualities. Hammer it in from the beginning. Encourage people to report followers of him. Create depictions of him growling menacingly at a noble, combat-ready God Emperor. Fill in images of the evil of Chaos so that if the child is tempted by Chaos, he will reject it immediently. If the Imperium denied the existance of the God to begin with and the child was contacted by chaos, he would have had nothing to tell him that "Chaos=bad, Emperor=good"

As an added bonus, you could then encourage mass witch-hunts. I recently studied the Salem Witch Trials. It was also a repressed society, and then people lashed out in the form of accusing each other of being witches. In the 40k universe, however, that thing is helpful. If the Imperium were to show how much damage one heretic can do, perhaps planets would start hunting down heretics with much more zeal than now so. 

After all, which one seems to imply a greater need for action? A lone punk worshipping a non-existant god, or heretics preparing to summon a demon?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> First of all, in the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages, life was shitty, but using the Devil as a boogeyman still worked. Not that many satan cults arose!


Indeed. But unlike devil-worship (or any form of anti-Catholic worship) in Medieval Europe, Chaos in the Warhammer 40,000 setting represents the base desires of all mortals, and freedom from the oppression that the Imperium offers. What ever way you like at it, Chaos is infinitely more tempting and desireable - people are much more motivated to follow Chaos than any form of anti-Catholicism in Medieval Europe. 



Platypus5 said:


> Second, well of course you don't want to tell the people that Khorne is all about military honor! You want to depict Khorne as a completely evil boogeyman who has no redeeming qualities.


Its not that hes depicted as an honourable god, its that people perceive him as such. People who willing turn to Khorne generally perceive him as an honourable and distinguished patron, they don't realise that he only craves blood. People wouldn't willingly turn to Khorne if they knew that they would end up as single-minded, bloodthirsty slaughterers - they turn to him because he offers them the strength to defeat their enemies.



Platypus5 said:


> Hammer it in from the beginning. Encourage people to report followers of him.


Its not that simple. People are directly tempted by Chaos, they don't just perceive it as people tell them. Regardless of what the Ecclesiarchy/Imperium says, people would still be tempted by Chaos just as much, if not more for actually have basic knowledge of Chaos.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed. But unlike devil-worship (or any form of anti-Catholic worship) in Medieval Europe, Chaos in the Warhammer 40,000 setting represents the base desires of all mortals, and freedom from the oppression that the Imperium offers. What ever way you like at it, Chaos is infinitely more tempting and desireable - people are much more motivated to follow Chaos than any form of anti-Catholicism in Medieval Europe.


Plus Chaos in the 40kverse actually has the power to reward it's followers. I've never heard of satan giving someone command of a loyal army, or a powerful suit of daemonic armour, or the ability to shoot fire from your eyes.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> I've never heard of satan giving someone command of a loyal army, or a powerful suit of daemonic armour, or the ability to shoot fire from your eyes.


Satan does give the ability to shoot fire out of your arse though. Think about it, who else would be so evil as to invent the vindaloo?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

**Spoiler alert**

Almost done reading Gaunts Ghosts. The Lost, and can tell in Traitor General and His Last Command they take up the subject about Chaos. We humans (or Imperials) tend to think in the ways of right or wrong, good or bad. But Chaos doesnt reflect that, not to repeat what previous people have said too much, freedom to be whoever you want to be.

The faith to resist Chaos is the will to stay focused and diciplined, to run loose and release your inner ambitions, the true inside that you keep in check. Im terrible at rephrazing what Gaunt said, but he added up some very good points during his stay on Gereon.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And Modern Satanism is probably not as bad as you think it is, read up on it.


HERESY!!!!


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Okay, I think I have a list of things that your average citizen knows:

1. The God Emperor lives on a planet called Terra.
2. Heretics=bad. (To you, heretics are just emo guys worshipping non-existant gods. No demons or even CSMs)
3. Emperor=good.
4. Aliens=bad.
5. Alien races include Eldar, & Orks.
5.5 On the Eastern Fringe, you also know about Tau and 'nids.
6. Your planet has to send people to fight in the Imperial Guard on worlds you never heard of.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Okay, I think I have a list of things that your average citizen knows:
> 
> 1. The God Emperor lives on a planet called Terra.
> 2. Heretics=bad. (To you, heretics are just emo guys worshipping non-existant gods. No demons or even CSMs)
> ...


That would probably be a very well informed world, some worlds barely understand how to make things fly let alone understand that they are part of a galaxy spanning Empire.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That would probably be a very well informed world, some worlds barely understand how to make things fly let alone understand that they are part of a galaxy spanning Empire.


Indeed. And some worlds and peoples would worship the Emperor as a primitive deity of nature (eg. the Sun-God) - rather than the God-Emperor of Terra.

In fact I wonder if even the most well-informed worlds and even members of the Ecclesiarchy are truly aware that the Emperor is a rotting carcass on the Golden Throne of Terra - I highly doubt it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

They might not know him to be a 'rotting carcass' but there is a constant stream of Imperial pilgrims streaming to Terra and I can't imagine they all come from one planet...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> They might not know him to be a 'rotting carcass' but there is a constant stream of Imperial pilgrims streaming to Terra and I can't imagine they all come from one planet...


True. But they are obviously not permitted access to anywhere close to the inner palace. So ultimately such pilgrimages give them no greater understanding of the Emperor at all.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

" You can't handle the truth!" if the majority of the imperium knew just how dire times were moral would plummet..... And it is already low. Incidents of revolt would increase, sectors would destabilize and trade routes would become even more dangerous than before. In short..... Shit would hit the fan.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That would probably be a very well informed world, some worlds barely understand how to make things fly let alone understand that they are part of a galaxy spanning Empire.


Only Civilized worlds and up count! Of course the people on feral & medieval worlds don't know about the galaxy. They probably think their world is flat!


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Only Civilized worlds and up count! Of course the people on feral & medieval worlds don't know about the galaxy. They probably think their world is flat!


But the Imperium rules over worlds that range from 41st millenium Terra to worlds like dark ages Earth. There really is no average citizen. 
Only counting "Civilized" worlds cuts out a huge chunk of the Imperium but even just counting them the vast majority would still know very little indeed.

You have to keep in mind that TV would not work over such massive distances, neither would radio. It would take years and years for a signal to reach from Terra to any other inhabited system and that would only be of use when it got to the other end if they had some way of recieving the signal.
Even if a signal did get through the ruling classes are not likely to pass it on, the last thing they need is a whole planet going mad worrying about a Hive Fleet or rampaging Chaos worshippers. 
Our knowledge of war zones today is a very recent development, during WWII no one was told anything they didn't need to know or that would cause panic. 
A good example is the Japanese balloon bombs that were used against the US, they were never reported because of the panic it could cause (and the fact that they were pretty useless!) 
As things in the real world have advanced it seems strange to us that this sort of information was not available. In the 40K setting things have gone backwards to the point where the human Empire is ruled by dark ages inquisitors with bloody great big guns.
Some may have knowledge of the wider universe but they would most definately be in the minority, the average citizen knows pretty much nothing other than vague rumours or ancient myths.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Plus you can take a page from the modern world we live in many of us only know about what's going on in the world through the media which can only cover so many stories and then it's censored through the bias of whatever governing body. Now this is just on one world, imagine that on a galactic scale. Also to take what normtheunsavoury has said the form of galatic communication is telepathic and has to travel through the warp so obviously only the most dire of messages are even sent. 

I don't believe for a second the average imperial citizen knows what's going on on a true scale, infact the average citizen probably works a normal work week, gives his praises to the empreror on one day, celebrates holidays, raises a family, eats, shits, and sleeps. Those on more civilized worlds probably sit at some 40K version of a computer discussing topics, like we're doing. 

War is obviously on a need to know basis and then the average citizen is probably just scuttled away without even having a glimpse of what is attacking them.

One question I do have is what happens when a Guardman retires? I understand being part of the other fighting forces of the Imperium is a lifetime commitment (Space Marines, Sister, Grey Knight, etc), but if a Guardsman gets old enough, doesn't want to advance and retires from duty what happens? I'm sure they don't let him regail (spl?) his grandchildren with stories of fighting daemonic hordes and green orks. So do they wipe his memory? Threaten him with death if he ever tells his tale? Kill him at the end of his service to avoid anyone ever finding out what he knows? If anyone can reference an answer on that I will definitely give some rep points.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

VanitusMalus said:


> Plus you can take a page from the modern world we live in many of us only know about what's going on in the world through the media which can only cover so many stories and then it's censored through the bias of whatever governing body. Now this is just on one world, imagine that on a galactic scale. Also to take what normtheunsavoury has said the form of galatic communication is telepathic and has to travel through the warp so obviously only the most dire of messages are even sent.
> 
> One question I do have is what happens when a Guardman retires?


It's also filtered through the news' bias. In rebel winter it says the voyst. are allowed to leave but by the time they are eligable many continue. In Fifteen Hours Arvin Larn on some holiday there's a raffle and the winner is left on what ever planet their on.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

hmm interesting locusgate


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## el_ben (May 10, 2010)

VanitusMalus said:


> One question I do have is what happens when a Guardman retires? I understand being part of the other fighting forces of the Imperium is a lifetime commitment (Space Marines, Sister, Grey Knight, etc), but if a Guardsman gets old enough, doesn't want to advance and retires from duty what happens? I'm sure they don't let him regail (spl?) his grandchildren with stories of fighting daemonic hordes and green orks. So do they wipe his memory? Threaten him with death if he ever tells his tale? Kill him at the end of his service to avoid anyone ever finding out what he knows? If anyone can reference an answer on that I will definitely give some rep points.


If I remember correctly sometimes a guard regiment which did very well while fighting in a crusade is allowed to "keep" the first world they conquer on their own as their new homeworld. I think its mentioned for example a few times in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Ghostmaker, Chapter 8.

Also I seem to remember that a guardsman gets enlisted for 25 years of service at least, and very few survive that long.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

el_ben said:


> If I remember correctly sometimes a guard regiment which did very well while fighting in a crusade is allowed to "keep" the first world they conquer on their own as their new homeworld. I think its mentioned for example a few times in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Ghostmaker, Chapter 8.
> 
> Also I seem to remember that a guardsman gets enlisted for 25 years of service at least, and very few survive that long.


I remember reading that as well but Ive never understood the very idea. Havent they like conquered multiple worlds already now?


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> Okay, I think I have a list of things that your average citizen knows:
> 
> 1. The God Emperor lives on a planet called Terra.
> 2. Heretics=bad. (To you, heretics are just emo guys worshipping non-existant gods. No demons or even CSMs)
> ...


Sorry to revive this thread, but I have to ask about someone who said that this would be a very informed world.

Would that still be true if you didn't count feral, agri, and medival worlds?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Sorry to revive this thread, but I have to ask about someone who said that this would be a very informed world.
> 
> Would that still be true if you didn't count feral, agri, and medival worlds?


Yes, even if you only counted major hive worlds the vast majority of the population would still know very little of what goes on outside of their own lives. 
Places like Cadia are very much in the minority but I would think that the average Cadian grunt would not fully understand what he is fighting against other than 'rebels'.
The ruling Classes would know that a tithe has to be paid every generation, that either food, munitions or man power would be taken from their world. The first thing that the every day guy in the street would know about it is when he gets a Las gun shoved into his hands and gets told to shoot at the enemy or get shot. 
It's an easy thing to forget with the information we have which gives us a birds eye view of the Imperium, the Empire is MASSIVE. It spans almost an entire galaxy. Even important information can take decades or centuries to reach it's destination where it is then processed through layers of bureaucracy.
With important information being so hard to transmit and the fact that the Inquisition does it's best to cover up pretty much everything then I think it unlikely that 'average citizen' would know anything of any importance.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

In the books with IG, aren;t the forces of Chaos refered to as "The Enemy", the average IG soldier just knows they are rebels, and that some of the iconography used by the enemy makes them vomit and get sick.


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Lets see what does the Imperium offer?
> A boring, monotonous existence, which can be incredibly short, and filled with war. Even if your lucky enough to be born on a peaceful world out of harms way you'd still be living a normal life that will nearly always have no great meaning.
> 
> What does Chaos offer?
> Power, even a chance at immortality. All they require is your worship. They give their followers a life of meaning, the chance to become more powerful, more influential, a life outside the monotony of the everyday citizen. A chance to leave a mark in the universe. IMO keeping the existence of Chaos a secret is one of the smartest things the Imperium has done, you can't be tempted if you're ignorant.


:goodpost:


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

I'm sold, Chaos is much more fufilling


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