# How many black templars are there really??



## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Hey guys! Ive heard lots of stories of my beloved crusaders being spread all over the galaxy and about how fucking many there really are from 5000 to 15000! What do u guys think?
Also how many dark angels on the rock and how big would the nuke would have to be to blow it up?? (in my opinion there all traitorous witches and really led by cypher!!!)

Thanks


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

There are estimated to be between 5000 and 6000 Black Templars throughout the universe on various crusades, however I doubt they will ever be able to actually pin down the exact number because of their crusading nature. I've always regarded the Templars to be a last middle finger salute from Dorn to Guilliman after what went on during the inception of the Codex Astartes, which is interesting given the usual straight up and down nature of the Golden Primarch.

As for the Dark Angels I'm not sure. Although The Rock is regarded to be their home planet which implies a static defence manned appropriately it is also equipped with warp engines, enabling faster-than-light transit through the Immaterium. This would suggest that the Dark Angels travel as a fleet, somewhat like the Imperial Fists, and that The Rock operates as the ultimate flag ship. If this is the case I would imagine it holds the majority of the Dark Angels Chapter within it's shadowy labyrinthine corridors.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

yah i heard 15,000 too. But lol. Regarding Guillemen. i think that hes a butt hole that manipulated the system. I hope he dies, wait he did...


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

> Ive heard lots of stories of my beloved crusaders being spread all over the galaxy and about how fucking many there really are from 5000 to 15000!


They are believed to be about 5000 to 6000 Marines strong, though they are dispersed throughout the galaxy. (p.8 in the BT dex)



> Also how many dark angels on the rock


They are more or less standard sized, though they have a strong bond with their successor Chapters and sometimes operate together as the "Unforgiven".


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Hmmmmm, the Rock vs the Phlanax. Now that would be a battle. As said above, it would be impossible (not it might be, it would be) to count due to the losses of battle, wandering nature and lack of 'standardised' organisation. I personally love the Black Templars for the pure fact, as stated by Digg40k, they are the last middle finger salute to Guilliman (quoted :biggrin


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> Hey guys! Ive heard lots of stories of my beloved crusaders being spread all over the galaxy and about how fucking many there really are from 5000 to 15000! What do u guys think?


There are actually only 12 BT, and they all have a different funny hat. :laugh:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

all i can say is there are a lot of them. my favourite chapter besides the imperial fists, love the whole crusading knights theme and their whole badassness (yes it is a word).


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

why dont other chapters do that? like "oh, my marines are all over the galaxy so i dont know EXACTLY how many there are....." and just pump out a few thousand marines. has there ever been a large gathering of BT? (like almost 1k size ish)


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

the thing is at any battle zone where Bt are there might be only 1 or a full company .
but any way when the inqusion finds out there all doomed


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

inqusitor_me said:


> the thing is at any battle zone where Bt are there might be only 1 or a full company .
> but any way when the inqusion finds out there all doomed


You reckon? I doubt it, I can't see the Imperial Fists or the Crimson Fists letting something like that fly without repercussions from their end.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I reckon they could. Risk destorying the Imperium in another Civil War (weakness by in fighting, encourages the Orks to attack more, Nids are free to roam, Necron Tomb Worlds go unwatched, Chaos breaks into Real Space, Traitors surface from the Imperial Worlds...

Having one chapter destroyed (with the Reputation both the Black Templars and the Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, and not so much, but to some extent, Soul Drinkers have), would create another Heresy.

A Chapter such as those who use Chaos against them (Revilers? Not sure, I've forgotten the name) doesn't matter so much. They usually keep themselves to themselves.

Also, the Black Templars are more than likely to back down. Or just say "Fuck off".


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Vaz said:


> A Chapter such as those who use Chaos against them (Revilers? Not sure, I've forgotten the name) doesn't matter so much. They usually keep themselves to themselves.


 I believe you're thinking Relictors.



Vaz said:


> Also, the Black Templars are more than likely to back down. Or just say "Fuck off".


 Wow, hang on, if Space Wolves and Dark Angels could keep a grudge for about ten thousand years the sons of Dorn sure as hell can.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> Wow, hang on, if Space Wolves and Dark Angels could keep a grudge for about ten thousand years the sons of Dorn sure as hell can.


Sure they can, Imperial Fists (and im pretty sure there 2nd founding chapters) would all have it in for the Iorn Warriors. Whats to say they add another to the list


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## whatwhat (Oct 7, 2008)

Digg40k said:


> inqusitor_me said:
> 
> 
> > the thing is at any battle zone where Bt are there might be only 1 or a full company .
> ...


If it came to it, which it wouldn't, the imperial fists + crimson fists + black templars would be screwed if they turned against the imperium. 

First of all the ultramarines and there successors (of which there are tons) are very close (the ultra company which was fielded at the eye of terror campaign was lead by a successor commander for example) and they wouldn't take too kindly to such a huge breach from the codex. After that other chapters will follow.

And then the inquisition has basically enough power to declare all three excomunicate which means the guard/mechanicus etc. etc. are all against them.

So if it came to it obviously it would be a substantial problem but there would be only one winner. Saying that it wouldn't happen in my opinion, most likely they already know about it but turn a blind eye since for the most part they keep themselves in line.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

whatwhat said:


> I
> 
> First of all the ultramarines and there successors (of which there are tons) are very close (the ultra company which was fielded at the eye of terror campaign was lead by a successor commander for example) and they wouldn't take too kindly to such a huge breach from the codex. .


no the utra marines are 1 of the original 1st founding chapters not succesors of the imperial fists


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

whatwhat said:


> If it came to it, which it wouldn't, the imperial fists + crimson fists + black templars would be screwed if they turned against the imperium.
> 
> First of all the ultramarines and there successors (of which there are tons) are very close (the ultra company which was fielded at the eye of terror campaign was lead by a successor commander for example) and they wouldn't take too kindly to such a huge breach from the codex. After that other chapters will follow.
> 
> ...


True but the ultra marines and successors need all that man power, if they didn't they'd get there butts handed out to them. They could ill afford to lend all their power to a fight against the imperial fists and their successors if they ever did join chaos. But they wouldn't because the Iron Warriors would be like "HOLD ON A SEC.. you want to be the emperor's chosen... and now you want to be the chosen of Chaos? Hell NAH! We are not going through this crap again!"


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## whatwhat (Oct 7, 2008)

Well yes, they wouldn't. I can't where they would get any allies in that situation tbh. They wouldn't turn to chaos as for one it is against there principles and for another no one on chaos would join them. So they'd pretty much be on their own.



Lord Lucius said:


> no the utra marines are 1 of the original 1st founding chapters not succesors of the imperial fists


Didn't say they were.


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

Lord Lucius said:


> no the utra marines are 1 of the original 1st founding chapters not succesors of the imperial fists


No he meant that the Ultramarines and all their successor chapters would go to war with the Imperial Fists and their successor chapters if they breached over the codex. That's tantamount to Heresy in the Ultramarines eyes.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

I think the Dark Angles field more like 1100-1200 marines in their main chapter but they effectively control 4+ successor chapters and who knows what else. The rock has huge void shields so I'd say a single nuke would have to be ridiculously powerful and likely the size of a warship where as a barrage of smaller nukes would probably be a more for sure way to take it out though a warp hole would do it pretty easy.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

there are in fact only 12 Black Templars. they just move really really fast so it looks like there's more.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

whatwhat said:


> If it came to it, which it wouldn't, the imperial fists + crimson fists + black templars would be screwed if they turned against the imperium.


They'd suffer losses, but I'm pretty sure they'd be perfectly alright, chapter heresy isn't exactly something the entire universe turns it's view from.



whatwhat said:


> First of all the ultramarines and there successors (of which there are tons) are very close (the ultra company which was fielded at the eye of terror campaign was lead by a successor commander for example) and they wouldn't take too kindly to such a huge breach from the codex. After that other chapters will follow.


Ultramarines have tons of successors? I can only think of three off the top of my head. Well they better have at least fifteen to combat just the black templar(Last I heard they were at 15k and REALLY spread out) Not to mention the entire branch of the sons of dorn battling them.

Other chapters would follow? I can't believe Russes sons would hop in against the only marines comparable to them in ferocity.
Salamanders, at last check, are waaaaay off doin what they do.

Although if this actually happened, it'd be written by some ultrasmurph who will have they're ws6 t4 no eternal warrior chapter master of homebreocity be able to take legions of templar without so much as a wrinkle on his cape.



whatwhat said:


> And then the inquisition has basically enough power to declare all three excomunicate which means the guard/mechanicus etc. etc. are all against them.


If the inquisition enters the fight, the forces of chaos would hop up to defend their newly found pet project. Guard would mobilize too slowly/be entirely inneffective against space marines(Read any book, it usually takes entire legions of humans to kill -A- spess mehreen)
And the inquisition isn't all that scary to people who have some threshhold to ignore psychic powers.

The grey knights would be a problem, but they'd most likely be dragged down by neophytes eventually.



whatwhat said:


> So if it came to it obviously it would be a substantial problem but there would be only one winner. Saying that it wouldn't happen in my opinion, most likely they already know about it but turn a blind eye since for the most part they keep themselves in line.


I don't believe it'll happen either. It's been going on for how long, without the inquisition caring?


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

The Ultramarines have more successor chapters than anyone. They had like 20 or 25 successor chapters just in the second founding alone. I don't think even the Ultramarines know exactly how many successor chapters they have spawned. The Ultramarine Geneseed is the largest and most commonly used of all the Geneseeds. I read somewhere that the Ultramarines comprised of almost 50% of all the Space Marines during the time of the Horus Heresy. That's why Horus sent them gallivanting off way to the Southwest part of the galaxy when he attacked Terra. he couldn't have them there fighting against him, he wouldn't have stood a snowballs' chance in hell. And the Inquisition is the single most fear generating force in the Imperium among its' citizens. They inspire fear like no one else can, even Chaos doesn't come close.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

until the word bearers kicked their ass... cough, cough. If the abyss didn't get its arse owned they would have been slayers. Like some computer asshole from the warp would have just shouted out "SLAYER"..."DOUBLE KILL" and so forth


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## whatwhat (Oct 7, 2008)

@ LordWaffles. To answer you I think Grik put it well enough but to add...the Inquisition isn't just the Inquisitors themselves it's the power they command, which includes being able to request a limitless amount of military resource if they deem it necessary. Three renegade chapters would be such a case.

Also on Griks point. Horus tricked the ultramarines into a fight elsewhere and sent the word bearers as a nuisance so they wouldn't make it to the fight at terra. As it is said in the horus heresy series by the end of the great crusade the Luna Wolves and the Ultramarines were the two greatest legions in terms of their achievements and size

Btw we're all speaking hypothetically here, I think we agree this wouldn't happen.


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

Why the fuck would the most pious chapter turn to chaos?!?:laugh:

If the Inquisition did declare them traitors the Ecclesiarchy would turn against the impurium with their favoured poster boys, disgraced.


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## HIz (Jan 31, 2009)

revenant13 said:


> why dont other chapters do that? like "oh, my marines are all over the galaxy so i dont know EXACTLY how many there are....." and just pump out a few thousand marines. has there ever been a large gathering of BT? (like almost 1k size ish)


other chapters do. there is crusading crimson fist companies do amongst others. Hell i think the first or second company is always a crusading company and always have 134 brothers in it in honor to how many of the chapter was left after ryns world. i believe there is da ones as well


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

i dont know why the lie about their numbers. it is a weakness now that they dont have larger numbers


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## Chocobuncle (Feb 5, 2009)

Fluff'Ead said:


> They are believed to be about 5000 to 6000 Marines strong, though they are dispersed throughout the galaxy. (p.8 in the BT dex)


hes right in the dex it says around 6,000


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Kendares said:


> i dont know why the lie about their numbers. it is a weakness now that they dont have larger numbers


Who lies about their numbers?

The BT really just _don't know_ how many battle brothers they have. Crusades go off, seeding worlds with Fortress-Monasteries, and sometimes don't get back for decades (or even it's been rumoured, at least in WD which isn't exactly canonical, for centuries). So any figures that any High Marshall may compile are likely to contain data that may be at least 20 years out of date, and in some cases at least potentially vastly more out of date than that. 

In that time some massive Crusades will have been just about annihilated, some which were barely begun will have produced swathes of novices and initiates, or whatever. There really is no way of telling, because there's nothing making the BTs keep the records.

:crusading cyclops:


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> Hey guys! Ive heard lots of stories of my beloved crusaders being spread all over the galaxy and about how fucking many there really are from 5000 to 15000! What do u guys think?
> Also how many dark angels on the rock and how big would the nuke would have to be to blow it up?? (in my opinion there all traitorous witches and really led by cypher!!!)
> 
> Thanks


HERESY THOU SHALT NOT SPEAK OF THE DARK ANGELS AND CYPHER. CYPHER IS A OOD GUY SEE THE STARCHILD THEORY!!!


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Black Templars would never, ever turn to chaos because of their absoute hatred for them and their love for sigsimund, dorn and Him. They would just turn against the ultra smurfs and their pansy codex astartes. Besides we would have the how ever many templars, crimson fists (1k), imperial fists (1k), soul drinkers (1k), the puppy dogs (???) and the salamanders (1k). Although they would have to see some serious flaw or heresy in the smurfs (like the terran crusade and the trecherous high lord vandire, see pg 19 templars dex) because the only reason dorn gave in was for relative peace inside the imperium.
And for the inquisitors, who gives a stuff about the inquisition anyway just a bunch of over eager communists!!
My conclusion-Suck it guilliman


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

Soul Drinkers are Exconnunicate Traitoris. And since the Ultramarines account for 3/5 of the current Space Marine Genestock(page 8, 4th Ed Space Marine Codex) they would have plenty of allies in this theoretical fight.


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