# An Issue with the Emperor



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

First, allow me to begin by saying that I have heard conflicting reports on exactly the Emperor's influence prior to his sudden apperance prior to the Great Crusade, and soon after launched the Unification Wars. Also I believe most current fluff does point in the nominal direction that the Emperor took an indirect hand in the affairs of Humanity prior to the Age of Strife, attempting to guide Humanity in the proper direction.

However, I have also heard rumor and seen some interesting evidence that the Emperor actually did one take control of Mankind, prior to the Age of Strife. We know from Humanity's original massive empire, that the Imperium initially just reunited, that humans were quite capable of taking on opponents prior to their downfall. 

To get to the point one of my reasons why I see some evidence behind this theory is during the book Horus Rising, they attack a system that claims to be the Imperium, with its own 'Emperor', and a pale imitation of the Astartes (they are characterized as over-grown giants but still not tall as Astartes). How could such a thing so starkly similar occur? Well in First Heretic, if I remember my fluff correctly it does show another civilization that worships a thunder god that is also very similar to the Emperor. During that engagement it becomes clear thats what the Word Bearers are fighting -- worshippers of the Emperor. A being they had never met before. Of coarse we could just chaulk this up to the whimsical insanity of the Chaos Gods or some long-reaching unknowable plot by the Emperor -- but those are both too vague of answers for me.

Now, if the Emperor was only working in the shadows prior to the Age of Strife, then no civilization would have subconscious memories of a being that likely never took front stage. If that is the case, then these two examples are glaring improbabilities to me.

However, if we wish to be heretical, we can continue with this assumed fact -- that the Emperor did lead Humanity and was one of the rulers, if not the only ruler, of the previous Human Civilization. This would help explain why any civilization would have a subconscious memory of him. 

Going off that assumed fact than it makes some other actions seem unusual. The inprisonment of the C'tan Dragon (or shard, or whatever the hell it is now) on Mars in, if I remember right, was during the Midevial Ages. As we know, or can speculate, this C'tan then helped to give birth to the Mechanicus. This is just an example.

This also leaves me with the impression that once the birth of Slannesh, and the subsequent death of most of the Eldar came about, causing the Age of Strife -- someone overthrew the Emperor. The colonies falling is obvious, with no communication to Terra they simply went nuts. Though for Terra to fall would have had to mean the Emperor was overthrown or was forced to abdicate. Hell maybe he just knew it was impossible at the time and walked out. In any event, he lost control.

If this happened and Terra sank into the Long Night it would give more backbone, to me, as to why the Emperor ever created the Primarchs or the Astartes at all. The loss of their technology, the inability of common man to withstand the horrors the galaxy may now contain.

However, like I said, this is at best a far-fetched theory of mine that just hatched while reading a book. At worst, its blatantly wrong. In either case, I figured it was something worth sharing for comments and criticism.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest the Emperor ruled a united human empire prior to the Age of Strife. In fact it is generally accepted that humanity didn't even have a united empire (in the Imperial sense anyway) prior to the Age of Strife; the timelines throughout the Heresy series refer to the "Human Federations" of the Dark Age of Technology and before. However, there are numerous implications of the Emperor having a hand in events prior to, and during the Age of Strife from behind the scenes. The development of the Navigator gene for example. 

I don't really understand your logic behind bringing up the "Imperium" of Sixty-Three Nineteen as evidence. A deluded civilisation (coincidently inhabiting a solar system strikingly similar to Sol) believed themselves (originally through ignorance or with intentional deception) to be based on _the_ Terra. Thats about it.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

My reference towards the "Imperium" was also due to the Golden Throne similarities. It is not an exact copy of the Imperium or Terra. I just found it rather surprising that in such a vast galaxy the Imperium would run into another civilization so eeriely similar to its own in name (The Imperium), ruler (Emperor), and some other minor details.

Also, this is grasping at straws but the 'Emperor' did have a sidekick that reminded me vaguely of Malcador. Again, no real tangible similarities between them but both Emperors did have a sidekick. Or hell the old guy could have just been some random dude the 'Emperor' used in the trap.

EDIT: I was unaware of that "Human Federations", and was under the impression of a united Human Empire. Though since you said that it is bringing back some vague memories while I read my Deathwatch Rulebook awhile ago stating that most of Humankind's initial colonies became civilizations in their own right since it took ten generations or so to exchange messages.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> My reference towards the "Imperium" was also due to the Golden Throne similarities. It is not an exact copy of the Imperium or Terra. I just found it rather surprising that in such a vast galaxy the Imperium would run into another civilization so eeriely similar to its own in name (The Imperium), ruler (Emperor), and some other minor details.


Having a golden throne is not unique to _the_ Imperium. Nor is the political term 'Emperor' or 'Imperium'. Throughout our own history look at how many civilisations were ruled by Emperors who sat on golden (or otherwise grand) thrones...

What I'm saying is that despite the striking similarities between the Empire of Sixty-Three Nineteen and _the_ Imperium/Sol, it doesn't whatsoever suggest that _the_ Emperor ruled a galaxy-spanning united human empire prior to or during the Age of Strife that the Empire of Sixty-Three Nineteen then based its own civilisation on. Emperors, empires, and thrones have long been integral elements of the history of human civilisation, therefore Sixty-Three Nineteen cannot be used as even tenuous evidence to suggest _the_ Emperor ruled a unified empire pre-Imperium.

It's also worth taking note of why Sixty-Three Nineteen was created and included in _Horus Rising_.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Another suggested reference to the Emperor's antics prior to the GC comes from Outcast Dead, in relation to a character exactly like the Emperor's description in The Last Church (from Tales of Heresy) manages to take out all the cognosynths on Terra that were dominating the planet, but the mysterious character then fades into the background... kinda' like the Medieval knight who banishes the (Void) Dragon and disappears.

I've often through that the Imperium is just the Emperor's latest go at raising humanity to a relatively untouchable/sustainable point and he's such a complete amoral bastard pre/post Unity and in the GC because of the hard lessons he's had with his prior failures.

On a galaxy-spanning human empire, it would all have depended on Warp travel. I had been under the impression that first came the Warp drive (M15 - 18), followed by the Navigators (M22), then the Geller field sometime after that allowed for the incredibly long jumps that eventually allowed for the GC. However, the WH40K wiki's all indicate that the Gellar Field developed with the Warp drive, so I'm not entirely sure what would have prevented larger human empires/civilizations to develop considering that travel wasn't an issue. Otherwise something along the size of the Tau Empire would have been the best they could do I'd think.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Its always been my impression that the Emperor's dislike for religion stems from himself having dabbled with creating a cult in ages past. He could easilly have appeared as a prophet or god touched being with his powers aeons before the general appearance of the psyker gene. Id imagine he started a religion, instructed his believers to spread a creed and faked his death to leave the public scene with a suitable bang to leave his memmory for the ages. And then despairing as he sees how the message was twisted and perversed as the centuries turned into millenia.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Its always been my impression that the Emperor's dislike for religion


Because he knew there were no Gods. Only the Chaos pantheon.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Because he knew there were no Gods. Only the Chaos pantheon.


This is where I have the issue. 

He knew about chaos for thousands of years. He could have warned humanity.

I know that he thinks if the word of chaos is spread then more will turn. However to me that is a good thing if chaos is exposed those who don't turn are only the most loyal.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Id imagine he started a religion, instructed his believers to spread a creed and faked his death to leave the public scene with a suitable bang to leave his memmory for the ages. And then despairing as he sees how the message was twisted and perversed as the centuries turned into millenia.


Heeeeey, it's not nice, however accurate, to talk about Catholics that way. :laugh: Much less every other human religion... It's kind of a species talent I think.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> This is where I have the issue.
> 
> He knew about chaos for thousands of years. He could have warned humanity.
> 
> I know that he thinks if the word of chaos is spread then more will turn. However to me that is a good thing if chaos is exposed those who don't turn are only the most loyal.


Humanity would only of panicked. Similarly how most people would panic if the government confirmed the existence of aliens.

The Emperor wanted to guide humanity until they were not only ready for the truth but also capable of fighting against it. He was doing quite well until the heresy.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Humanity would only of panicked. Similarly how most people would panic if the government confirmed the existence of aliens.
> 
> The Emperor wanted to guide humanity until they were not only ready for the truth but also capable of fighting against it. He was doing quite well until the heresy.


Truth be told, in my opinion he was doing fine and would have continued to be fine so long as magnus didnt fuck the webway up, compared to magnus's transgressions, those of his brothers, even their combined treachery paled in comparison to that of Magnus.


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## The Rusted Scythes (Feb 2, 2013)

I have big problems with the Emperor, so big in fact I believe that only through Chaaos can Man or any other sentienent being find their true potential.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Rusted Scythes said:


> I have big problems with the Emperor


Such as? 



The Rusted Scythes said:


> I believe that only through Chaaos can Man or any other sentienent being find their true potential.


What do you base this on and what kind of potential do you mean?


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> Truth be told, in my opinion he was doing fine and would have continued to be fine so long as magnus didnt fuck the webway up, compared to magnus's transgressions, those of his brothers, even their combined treachery paled in comparison to that of Magnus.


I blame the Space Wolves for starting all that bullshit. If they weren't so gung-ho and secret Khorne-lovers (ha) they would've realised that Horus was playing them all along and Prospero would never have burned, webway would never have gotten fucked up by ol' one eye, etc...(I love and collect both armies though so this is very tongue-in-cheek )


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I blame the Space Wolves for starting all that bullshit. If they weren't so gung-ho and secret Khorne-lovers (ha) they would've realised that Horus was playing them all along and Prospero would never have burned, webway would never have gotten fucked up by ol' one eye, etc...(I love and collect both armies though so this is very tongue-in-cheek )


I think you got confused. The Space Wolves was sent to Prospero to deal with Magnus, -BECAUSE- of his ill fated messsage to terra that wrecked the imperial webway. He didnt wreck it after the visit from Russ.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

As I said brother, tongue-in-cheek, and I haven't finished Thousand Sons and Prospero novels yet so I am indeed quite a confused little petal...And damn, I should probably avoid conversations like this due to spoilers from now on!


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

BlackGuard said:


> -- but those are both too vague of answers for me.


Here's your issue, mate. You're looking for precise answers in a very vague area of the fluff - an area of the fluff that is left vague for two very good reasons:

1) It adds an element of mystery as the reader can't know everything, thus backing up the idea that in many ways the Imperium is built on lies and the restriction of information.
2) It allows you, the reader, to add to the fluff from your own perspective, with your own opinions on how things panned out/will pan out.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

BlackGuard said:


> Well in First Heretic, if I remember my fluff correctly it does show another civilization that worships a thunder god that is also very similar to the Emperor. During that engagement it becomes clear thats what the Word Bearers are fighting -- worshippers of the Emperor. A being they had never met before. Of coarse we could just chaulk this up to the whimsical insanity of the Chaos Gods or some long-reaching unknowable plot by the Emperor -- but those are both too vague of answers for me.


It doesn't alter much of your reasoning, but there's something critical on this point you've had the misfortune of missing.

The story _Scions of the Storm_ in _Tales of Heresy_ deals with this same world and this same problem.



They'd somehow acquired a copy of Lorgar's _Lecticio Divinatus_ - it was another world that existed as such because of Lorgar's choices and actions.


Another vine I'd throw into this web is that the Horus Heresy and the fate of the Emperor has echoes of the War in Heaven to it, amongst other things. The role of the Emperor is in contrast to what went before him: reincarnating Shamans who were losing their ability.

There's a bigger game afoot, though for why and what ends and who knows who is on who's side... well, it's complex. Or possibly non-existent. 
Is it all a march towards the battle at the end of time? Does it matter whether there's religion or not? We the Primarchs and the Heresy just another iteration, another stage or run-through of the War in Heaven?


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Because he knew there were no Gods. Only the Chaos pantheon.


But it isn't like that. The Eldar had gods before Slaanesh ate most of them, and the orks still have Gork and Mork.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Karthak said:


> But it isn't like that. The Eldar had gods before Slaanesh ate most of them, and the orks still have Gork and Mork.


The Eldar ones were technically born before the Chaos pantheon and went extinct thousands of years before the first human walked the earth.

So by the time the Emperor manipulates mankind, only the Chaos powers were around. 

In any case, negative emotions are multiplied tenfold in the warp hence why the strongest entities will always be the four Chaos powers. 

So even if humanity created their own Gods, they would eventually be swallowed or dominated by the big four.

The Orks are different because the emotions they feel are not as complex as some of the other races. They live and die to fight hence why their psychic projections only represent war and its various facets in the forms of Gork and Mork. 

As for why they have not been consumed by the four Chaos powers, who knows really. Maybe they're strong enough to resist or simply are not a concern to them.

I think there are a few lesser human deities running around the warp, but they most likely are too minute to gain the attention of the pantheon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Eldar ones were technically born before the Chaos pantheon and went extinct thousands of years before the first human walked the earth.


Assuming they were not just allegorical: No, the Eldar gods were consumed by Slaanesh during the climax of the Fall. So around the same time that the Emperor was fighting the Unification Wars (long after humans first walked the earth).



Malus Darkblade said:


> So by the time the Emperor manipulates mankind, only the Chaos powers were around.


If we accept that the Emperor was manipulating mankind around 29 or 30 millennia before the Unification Wars (via his fight with the Dragon) then the Eldar and Greenskin pantheons were certainly around then. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> So even if humanity created their own Gods, they would eventually be swallowed or dominated by the big four.
> 
> The Orks are different because the emotions they feel are not as complex as some of the other races. They live and die to fight hence why their psychic projections only represent war and its various facets in the forms of Gork and Mork.
> 
> ...


The Eldar pantheon, Gork & Mork, and the Chaos Gods all have their genesis (or in terms of the Chaos Gods, their explosive development) in the War in Heaven. The Eldar and Greenskins were _created_ then, and the sheer scale of the war, as well as the amount of warp magicks employed, threw the warp into turmoil which fostered the growth of Chaos. The Eldar pantheon and Gork & Mork were specific (and attuned) to the consciousness of a single race, reflecting the psyche of that species. That was presumably the case because both the Eldar and Greenskins had some variety of racial/collective consciousness.

The Chaos Gods however, were entities which came to reflect the emotional aspect of all reality. In terms of the relationship between them: Chaos (specifically Slaanesh) eventually consumed and usurped the Eldar pantheon after the Eldar themselves fell to decadence. The Dark Gods grew to such an extent that Chaos and the warp have become completely indivisible. Gork & Mork are more tricky to talk about, simply because they are mentioned almost nowhere, and when we do hear about them its from the bizarre perspective of a Greenskin. But we can assume that they endure as the Greenskins continue to thrive in realspace. If the Greenskins were to fade and die out, so too would their gods.

As for the original point: does humanity have their own specific warp gods? No. Humanity doesn't have the collective psyche that the Eldar and Greenskins have, and the Chaos Gods have grown to reflect every aspect of man. Where the Emperor fits in is another matter though.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, the Eldar gods were consumed by Slaanesh during the climax of the Fall. So around the same time that the Emperor was fighting the Unification Wars (long after humans first walked the earth).
> 
> If we accept that the Emperor was manipulating mankind around 29 or 30 millennia before the Unification Wars (via his fight with the Dragon) then the Eldar and Greenskin pantheons were certainly around then.
> 
> ...


Not to nitpick, but wasn't The Fall around M25, leading to the creation of the Eye, and the Age of Strife when the Warp was all but impassable no matter the drive technology? Then it's only at the end of the Age of Strife in M30, as the Warp is once again 'becalmed' that the Emperor emerges and starts the Unification Wars?

From your cool description of the rise the Eldar and Ork gods, one hypothesis about the Emperor pursuing the Great Crusade might be he was hoping to stabilize humanity long enough for that collective consciousness to evolve along with the psykers, which could catapult him to 'godhood'.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Not to nitpick, but wasn't The Fall around M25, leading to the creation of the Eye, and the Age of Strife when the Warp was all but impassable no matter the drive technology? Then it's only at the end of the Age of Strife in M30, as the Warp is once again 'becalmed' that the Emperor emerges and starts the Unification Wars?


No, the Fall occurred in M.31. 

Whilst the Age of Strife was indirectly caused by the Eldar, it was ended by Slaanesh's birth; the fury of the warp having been spent.


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