# Know thine enemy (fighting against Chaos Space Marines)



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Inspired by the post "Know thine enemy", and agreeing to Kattie's comment, I believe we should post a thread separately for each army. Here I will analyze Chaos Space Marines, their strengths, weaknesses, and what people should be aware of. Personal experiences will also be stated here, for indeed, some people outsmarted me in wonderful ways.

General Chaos Strengths:
Decent ranged firepower, decent melee units, versatility.

General Chaos Weaknesses: Very "generic" army lists; Don't expect nasty surprises regarding army compositions. There are only 2 100% effective "cheesy" tounrament lists: Dual Lash/Obliterator Spam, and Chosen/CSM mech spam.

1) OBLITERATORS: The best HS in the Chaos arsenal, those evil dudes are effective against any and all enemy types. Significally overpowered in 4th ed, they have been nerfed in the current codex. They are prone to Instant Death, so S8 AP2 and better weapons will send them back to the Warp instantly. AP2 weaponry is choice #2 against them. Their high points cost make killing each one of these a worthy shot spend.

2) DAEMON PRINCES: Don't let them scare you. 3+/5+ save is even worse than a Terminator's, who usually costs half. Just shoot it with AP3 weapons or better, and it will eventually die. Tzeentch Princes have a 4+ Invulnerable Save, so they can take a few more hi-strength shots, but still, focused firepower will send them to meet Tzeentch again. Nurgle Princes are T6, which means, S4 weapons will wound them on 6 rather than 5. Who cares, it's lascannons you should be firing at them!

3) LASH OF SUBMISSION: Play mechanized, and shoot the caster to the death. If you are Eldar, get a farseer with Runes of Warding. If you are a Space Marine, get a Psychic Hood.

4) DEFILERS: Too much fuzz for nothing. Highly visible, weak armour, and I3. Won't give you much trouble, as its 72" ranged cannon is not really adding up to anything else available in the chaos arsenal. 3 Defilers together can be pain, but if you see that, it means no Obliterators, which means no anti-tank.

5) PLAGUE MARINES: Plasma weapons should do the trick.

6) NOISE MARINES: Common anti-MEQ tactics regarding shooting, but don't get too close; They have I5 and a nasty template weapon, the Doom Siren. Get close only if you are about to assault at the same turn, or else you will get spectacularly sonic blasted, blast mastered, doom sirened and then I5 assaulted.

7) KHORNE BERZERKERS: Avoid being assaulted by them. Their effective range is 12" max, as they lack even Bolters. Pop their transports and shoot them to the death. If you are a cc specialist, assault them first (after mowing them down with shooting).

8) CHAOS SPACE MARINES: The only CSM Troops Choice that is not Fearless. Typical Marines, perhaps enhanced by an Icon. Typical anti-MEQ tactics advised (force lots of saves, AP3 and better weapons, etc).


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## typhus98 (Dec 13, 2009)

To take out khorne berzekers, assault them with assault terminators lead by a captain with storm shield and relic blade... Great and fun carnage!!!

-personnal experience


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

CSM and SM are so similar that generals anti-MEq tactics work well. Take down vehicles to confound movement, take out Troop units to confound objective holding, have a strong anti-CC unit guarding your back line and pummel the MEq with high S and low AP shooting.
Works every time.


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## Ishamael (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm surprised that each of the Chaos Troops were represented here except the Thousand Sons. For those that are unfamiliar with these rarely-seen Egyptian types, they are essentially quite slow, but with AP 3 Boltguns and a 4 up Invul, their strength is that they are generally going to get a save regardless of the situation. Leading these squads is an Aspiring Sorcerer, a force weapon wielding psyker that has access to the basic powers of chaos, then the Bolt of Change, essentially a 24 inch meltagun profile without the melta rule. I plan on making my next army from these boys, as few people will know what they are, and I hope to have a nice bag of tricks to draw from given their slow nature.

I must ask how this thread is going to be focused. Should tactics regarding certain units be addressed?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wheres the Chaos Lords, Possessed, and Spawn? Allow me.

If facing a Lord, dont engage and use MEQ killing Tatics. That Simple.

If facing Possessed, use the same MEQ Tatics as 5+ Inv means nothing and thank god your opponett did not use a Zerkers.

If Facing Spawn, Lean Back and laugh your ass off, Wipe them out with simple Bolter Fire, and then Slap your advesary across his face for wasting your time.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Ishamael said:


> I must ask how this thread is going to be focused. Should tactics regarding certain units be addressed?


I'd think that we could touch on individual units to a point, yes, but we should try to keep things as generic as possible. The "Versus" series here in the Tactics section goes into significant detail about how to deal with some of the usual problem units, so there's not much need to do so again here.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

TSons are so slow that they almost never get into the game. I often find I can kill them before they get into bolt gun range, or slap them with a CC MC (in my case one that ignores all saves, but in general anything big works).


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Thousand Sons are quality Troops, but they do suffer from some pretty debilitating weaknesses. First and foremost in my mind is that they cannot take any special or heavy weapons - this means that Thousand Sons have almost no way of scratching any vehicle with an AV of 11 or higher unless their Aspiring Sorcerer happens to have Wind of Chaos or Bolt of Change. Since 5th has had so many armies become heavily mechanized, it leaves Thousand Sons with very little to do until another unit in the Chaos army manages to force a squad out of its transport.

I personally play against a Thousand Son heavy force quite often and thus far the best way I've found to defeat them is to force them to take tons and tons of armor saves. For those using the Blood Angel rules like myself, this means assaulting them with Death Company or an Assault Squad in range of Corbulo's _Furious Charge_ aura, or letting rip at them with a Baal Predator. Other armies can use similar units and tactics - Codex Marines can blast the crap out of the Rubrics with thunderfire cannon and Crusaders. Tau can light 'em up with Stealth Teams or Fire Warriors, whereas Eldar Dire Avengers are just what the doctor ordered.


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## Chaoz94 (Jun 17, 2008)

(coming from a csm player thats stopped playing and is about to start PH iron warriors with the loyalist dex)
lack of increased transport capacity , variants and machine spirit mean that the land raider is either going to be used for two things
transport or anti tank - aka means 250 points of worthlessness as most chaos marine generals dont even use them
crazed rule on a dreadnaught
arguably ONE OF THE BIGGEST rule fails GW ever commited
no chance of seeing them unless the user is on COCAINNE! *yes a note to the old slanessh bike riding character*
or is desperate

lack of drop pod/dread claw means only a few units can deep strike meaning that they can relatively be taken out easily (oblis may present a problem though as stated above arent too difficult to defeat)

summoned deamons :
no power weapons 
no shooting
greater deamon requires a sacrifice of an aspiring champion

deamon prince:
relatively low amount of attacks
usually soaks up fire
i say
save things like heavy bolters or hurricane bolters for them , concentrate on the rest of the army
as ive seen many times that ignoring the rest (usually filled with bezerker squads) can be a deadly mistake

other than that the rest has been covered as i can remember

chaoz


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

greater demon rushers: stay 8'' away from there champions until it is summoned then gun it down (4+ save and invul only makes it a fast kill sometimes)or just swarm it in CC 

Thousand sons: they will shred three times as many marines as regular bolter marines how ever they cant do much to marines in transports and storm shields also the second you put a walker againts them they lose: fearless+no grenades means they cant win nor run away the aspiring sorcerer might have a melta bomb but still needs 6's to hit


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

regarding thousand sons, i find that beating them is very easyfor some armys and rather hard for others. armys such as guard, tau, orks, or nids will have no problem killing them, due to their cheap points cost. hitting and wounding guardsmen, gaunts, tau, and orks . a round of shooting kills 6-8 models. this is no problem for these armies because 6-8 guardsmen is 50 pts-ish and gaunts and boyz are both cheaper. fire warriors will usually have a cover save if their commander is anything but incompetent. this will allow them to absolutely SHRED the thousand sons. the 30-inch range also helps. low mobility is the crippling factor in a game where speed is king. 
the thousand sons will very easily slaughter heros, Space Marines, necrons, SOB, and other CSM. this is so because very often the members in an average squad are so beefed up, that the squad becomes an unreliable point-sink that will be slaughtered by tsons.heros will very quickly fall tothe sorcerers force weapon and the spell Gift Of Chaos. the sorcerer's array of spells increases the versatility, but can be wasted points if the user forgets to use it.

Eldar, Dark eldar, and certain guard lists depend on the dice for the outcome.

in closing, i have 3 pieces if advice
1:stay in a transport as long as possible if your basic squad member is more than 12 points.
2:templates, templates, templates
3:walkers can be the bane of the tsons existance, as it will tie uup a possibly 250 point squad with a 100 point model, and quite possible waste the entire squad.

regarding breserkers, no matter your expectations, they will exceed them. many a time wikl my breserkers tear apart a firing line. i have made a system that helps you know when to shoot them

24 inches-okayz
18 inches- Warning
12-SHOOT
6- SRS BIZNISS
the plasma list will take care of any breserkers

plague marines willl be the ones to hold an objective. just use your standar plasma or las weapons to take care of these guys.

oblits are pretty easy, just scrape together some power weapons and youll be fine.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

What about a 10 squad of Nurgle marked Chaos Bikers? T6


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

anything plasma will kill bikers of any kindplus 10 nurgle bikers are around 380 points. no one with any type of tactical sense will put that many points into an unreliable poing sink like that in a 2000 ir less.(unless it is their armies' lynchpin)


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Shooty armies can kill the bike units very fast. It is mostly about volume of fire, forcing saves. A bike unit failing moral is very funny because they run extra far when falling back. They also tend to be fairly small units, making them easy kill points.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

snipers are a funny counter to bikers or anything thats poison but yes as the above said lots of saves they are just expensive space marines when it comes to surviving wounds


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

implant attacks on carnifex's or hive tyrants rape obliterators....

genestealers rape beserkers....

general info though...

-Kill the daemon prince with lash, it is not the most terrifying ability, but it pisses you off enough to make it a high priority target. 

-beware the ability that forces a toughness test on you (usually on a sorcerer or something) it is unlikely, but if it kills your commander or a MC then it will effect the overall game immensly

-hit those bikers with a unit that can rend, or high strength template weapons, chances are the unit is a point sink (im not to sure) and will be worth taking out

-daemon weapons are fearce, but dont be afraid to combat them, if they roll a 1 (escpecially abbadon) then you can kill them easily if you are fighting them with a combat unit.


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## Broken Sword (Jan 5, 2009)

To fight a proper CSM enemy is to understand that their strength lies in the ability to make you make bad choices. DO I kill the lash Princes or the Obliterators (or vindis). For me, I run mech, so I want to kill those oblits with haste while I still have vehicles to hide in because once you are out, you are going to get pulled together and then blast. 
Oblits and vindis can be popped easily enough with long range anti-tank S 8 or higher. For Oblits, if you can hit them at a distance with something that forces a volume of armor saves, this can also whittle them down, but mostly I hit them with las - missiles or if you run an Eldar varient dark lances ect. Dropping a squad or two turn one is decent enough as it severely limits the number of targets the CSM player can engage at range.
Now the ball is your court because you make HIM choose whether to disembark your troops with firepower or attack your high strength long range weapons.
You now him off his footing and can make a judgement call on how to engage the next turn. If the Oblitz still need dead, then make them dead, if you have been taken out of your transports, then those oblits are still priority. Once they are dead, it is prince time. He will most likely try to keep you off objective now, so the best bet for princes are the same weapons which you engage Marines with (high volume of shots) - make him fail those armour saves - or engage him with elite units that can take a beating (Assault termies ect) this will also keep him from lashing and may force him to commit troops to aid the princes. This is all to your benefit as you will be better able to manage the fight now as most CSM players will have a small number of units on the board and every one not free to move is one less in the total fight.
You will also be likely to see planty of plaguers. Hit them with a combo of S8 or higher weapons or blasts (preferable) to make them die quick and supplement that with a high volume of shots. Follow up with some powered attacks in CC and you can count them dead. Do not underestimate their combat prowess however. I am well known for holding my own with 7 plaguers against as many as 16 black templar crusaders and assault marines, so whittling them down before assault is key.
Zerks in rhinos are not that bad, just deny them the charge and then charge them after a little bit of whittling and they die like any other Marine equivilent. Zerks in raiders however can be a little rougher if you can't kill raiders, so unless you can reliably kill a raider, ignore them if possible. If not, make their only viable target something they cannot take in CC without a sever sacrifice (ie assault termies, Dark Eldar retinue,) or let them hit a sacrife unit, then pound them in the following shooting phase (zerks are famous for cleaning up most standard troop squads in a single turn). 
Reading all of the above advice I have given may make it seem like it is easy to fight a competitive CSM force, but the key is time. He can possibly get you to spend three to four turns dealing with the non-troops, then leave you with limited time to stop his troops or to clean them from objectives - so be a smart general when fighting them and keep your eyes on the prize - fight the mission, not the enemy. If kill points are involved, there are easy ones in his rhinos and his princes, just don't get caught with your pants down when the Oblits or vindis come out to play.
.
Another thing to watch out for are the outflanking chosen squads with thier multiple meltas ect. You will have to deal with them and the standard tactic of centering your army on the middle will often be mitigated by the odds that he will have great firing lanes with his long range weapons (once again the oblitz). In this situation, just take one on the chin from the chosen or make sure the only thing they have is a rhino or transport to pop, then they are just 5+ little CSM prone to dying or getting run off the board.
Hope this helped. It might be kind of obvious now how I run my games from how I told you to fight me, but oh well, happy hunting!


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

typhus98 said:


> To take out khorne berzekers, assault them with assault terminators lead by a captain with storm shield and relic blade... Great and fun carnage!!!
> 
> -personnal experience


Hail,

Yes but with the high point cost of that termie squad backed up with an HQ unit, we could add Kharn or a Khornate Lord with termie armour and a Blood feeder...
Lots of Loyalist terminator skulls for my Lord Khorne!

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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