# Is it wrong...



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I plan on taking 3 squads of purgation against my friend that plays nids this week.

It feels wrong to pay 140 points for 5 guys in a rhino with 4 incinerators and a teleport homer x3...


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

are the purgation squads in your all comers list? or is this just a simply 'i want to annihilate my friends tyranids so bad he doesnt enjoy playing me' list?


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I run multiple lists. Its not that I dont want to run this vs other people. Its that its not viable with all the mech running around. If an opponent had mostly infantry I would want to run this. Nids dont have a choice.

Personally I love flame throwers. But against a normal list, no I wouldnt run this. It IS only because I know he cant take tanks and because it will gimp his shitty save. But so would any flamer.

If you get really technical, just playing gray knights is screwing over tyranids. Everything has a stormbolter and force weapons. That insta gibs any army he can make.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Actually, if he makes an army full of warriors and other synapse/shadow creatures, he can give you a good run for your money. If he rolls with a more shooty army, he could likely do the same. I play nids against a GK player fairly frequently and have regularly surprised him with a butt kicking.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

I'm going to be facing my nid buddy with IG, so I'm afraid he will go warriors and synapse creature as well.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

With ig, if you tank spam you shouldnt have a problem. If you go infantry it could get bad.

With Gray Knights, there is really no unit he can take that I would be even kinda afraid of.

Hive Tyrant?
Gaunts?
Gants?
Genestealers?
Zoanthroaps?
Hive guard?
Carnifex?

All of it dies easily to my basic infantry. Either through shooting or close combat. I can back away and shoot every turn and have the advantage or I can shoot till they get close and dictate the charge, activate force weapons and win that way. If im scared of shadow in the warp, I can just take a brotherhood banner to autopass the test and all but assure I ID his beasty.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

I try and build a "hammer and anvil" guard list with both infantry and armor on the field. Me and my nid friend are both new, so we aren't too competitive. I just know he hates those pie plates with a passion, so I have a few of those planned for the lolz


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Hive Tyrants seriosuly don't die to Strike Squads. Not even close. They smack first, hitting on 3s and killing on 2s with their 4 attacks, and you hit them back on 5s in the first two rounds of combat and wound on 6s if you want Force Weapons, casting through Shadow in the Warp and causing two wounds so you can get past the Tyrant Guard.

I'd say that taking 3 Purgation Squads with Incinerators is list-tailoring. You even say that you use it against infantry. Take one or two if you want flavour, but three is "I'm going to catch you, and when I do I'm going to fuck you".

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Personally I love flame throwers. But against a normal list, no I wouldnt run this. It IS only because I know he cant take tanks and because it will gimp his shitty save. But so would any flamer.


That's basically the definition of list tailoring.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

When I make lists I always make All Comers list.

That being said I have never won a game against Nids. I don't play against them a lot, so that doesn't help me either. With this in mind I've been trying to find something to add that will help me, and I think I have it. But that's for another thread at a later date.

Anywho I have to agree with most of the other people and say yes it is wrong to do that because it *IS* list tailoring.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Why is "list tailoring" (or as I like to call it mission oriented list) such a bad thing?


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why is "list tailoring" (or as I like to call it mission oriented list) such a bad thing?


thats a good point, after all no general worth an inth of their salt would go into battle without knowing the enemy somewhat.

Sadly if (in the case of) Purge-ing squads are massively effective against Nids, then arguably the game itself is unbalanced.

Although I have to admit, I can see a Purging squad of Ultra marines now... one Rhino, one Razor back - a 10 man Dev team in the Rhino and a 5 man vet team in the Razor + homers....

A shooty 10 man tactical, some Hammer / Shield Termies in deep-strike reserve - may even mix it up with an attack bike + multimelta / Heavy flamer... OR a Dready with MM and HF + CC - that would make an interesting battle....

sigh... I have to wait untill my troop are painted..... soon.... soon... and then I am sure I will have all the blood of battle I can take =)


I cannot wait to go-up against Nids.... I have a sneaky suspicsion that they will be my second army!


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Zetronus said:


> thats a good point, after all no general worth an inth of their salt would go into battle without knowing the enemy somewhat.


I'd love to see a tourny run where you choose a 1500 point list but only field 1000 points in a game, so you have a little bit of flexibility to create a force to match the mission.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

I can see my reserve and deep-strike rules being quite abused


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why is "list tailoring" (or as I like to call it mission oriented list) such a bad thing?


Well, unless your opponent is also tailoring a list to your army, it makes the game very unfair, and unfun. I mean if your out to win at no matter the cost then by all means go right ahead. But if your out to have fun then it kills it for the other person.

I run a Kan Wall list (that's 9 Killa Kans, and 2 Deff Dreads with KFF Big Meks backing them up... I also run 90 Boyz) I use this list as an all comers list, and love to face people who are talking up their all lists. When I do beat them the usually response is they want a rematch after they modify their list to have more tank busting power. Then I point out to them it wouldn't fair, or much of a true rematch... and they try to say they take that stuff all the time... Then I ask why they didn't take it in this game...

Anywho the point is it just makes it not fair or fun.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Hmmm 

Perhaps then, spending points on your enemys info - say a 1000 point battle and you can sacrife 10% for enemy army info ? (not nessasarilly all of it)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Zetronus said:


> I can see my reserve and deep-strike rules being quite abused


what do you mean by that?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> Well, unless your opponent is also tailoring a list to your army, it makes the game very unfair, and unfun. I mean if your out to win at no matter the cost then by all means go right ahead. But if your out to have fun then it kills it for the other person.
> 
> I run a Kan Wall list (that's 9 Killa Kans, and 2 Deff Dreads with KFF Big Meks backing them up... I also run 90 Boyz) I use this list as an all comers list, and love to face people who are talking up their all lists. When I do beat them the usually response is they want a rematch after they modify their list to have more tank busting power. Then I point out to them it wouldn't fair, or much of a true rematch... and they try to say they take that stuff all the time... Then I ask why they didn't take it in this game...
> 
> Anywho the point is it just makes it not fair or fun.


So making a list that is quite unusual that catches people unprepared and they have no defence against is fun but playing people who are prepared isn't fair or fun ?

Isn't this just a broad spectrum "list tailoring" ? Tailoring your list in such an unusual way that people are unprepared for it?

I'd get a lot more satisfaction out of a win over an opponent who was prepared to meet me rather than driving my tanks over is forces that are armed with spoons.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So making a list that is quite unusual that catches people unprepared and they have no defence against is fun but playing people who are prepared isn't fair or fun ?
> 
> Isn't this just a broad spectrum "list tailoring" ? Tailoring your list in such an unusual way that people are unprepared for it?
> 
> I'd get a lot more satisfaction out of a win over an opponent who was prepared to meet me rather than driving my tanks over is forces that are armed with spoons.


Oh I didn't say I didn't face them with their revamped list, in fact I usually do face them, and then beat them again. And I agree, it is more fun to beat someone who made a list to beat you.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

List tailoring Definition: (a.) makes you a prick (b. ) designing your army to easily deal with another army with prior knowledge of their list/ build. Makes the game easy for you and shows total and absolute lack of skill at the game. Build a list that is good at killing everything, not solely designed to kill infantry or vehicles. 

In essence, if you list tailor, you will not get respect from any competent competitive players and it reflects poor skill at the game.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

If we leave blowing our own trumpet for a minute what I am saying is; if you are going to a tournament you can be pretty much assured that everyone's lists will be "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" so while they might have some AT assets they won't have enough to deal with a tank heavy list so really what you are doing is just as cheesey as making a list to deal with a specific threat.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

mcmuffin said:


> List tailoring Definition: (a.) makes you a prick (b. ) designing your army to easily deal with another army with prior knowledge of their list/ build. Makes the game easy for you and shows total and absolute lack of skill at the game. Build a list that is good at killing everything, not solely designed to kill infantry or vehicles.
> 
> In essence, if you list tailor, you will not get respect from any competent competitive players and it reflects poor skill at the game.


Ahhh the subtle words of the McMuffin man.

Actually we might be on slightly different wavelengths here. I'm not suggesting that what you do is have someone give you a list and you build to counter that, I am meaning more along the lines of you know your opponent plays 'nids or necron or what ever so you build your force accordingly. So you know your playing against necron so no need to take anti-psyker stuff, that sort of thing. To my mind it adds another dimension to the game by rewarding good planning and knowledge of the other codices.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

You have to factor in that If I take strike squads, im list tailoring. If I take purifyers, IM tailoring, If I take Purgation squads, im tailoring. Everything I play gimps nids.

Also, its not like my opponent doesnt know a month in advance that he will be playing gray knights. I dont care what he takes at all. As far as im concerned, he cant make a list that will beat the gray knights codex.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Seriously dude? Your over confidence could very well be your downfall. Nids are not as crappy against you as you may think. There are numerous good builds they can field or he could just surprise you completely with something you thought was stupid. Sure, they along with Daemons suffer from lack of transports but by no means are they helpless against GK.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Then go with coteaz and take bare-bones henchmen. Then you really aren't tailoring.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Mmmmm Purgeration Dev Squad - Razorback Mounted with a Twin Link HF

Sounds epically rightious!

It wouldn't matter if the SM won or lost against the nids! its just that portion of the battle to the last man would make even a vetern of McCragg weep with inner joy!

I can see one of my Rhino's being converted now!

Hmm a purgin Dreaddy or two, a jumpy vangard squad with chaplin!!!

I just love the idea of fielding that win / lose - it would make a great battle!


[update]

I think I might be a cross wires here - List Tailoting is a new term for me atleast - I wouldn't want that as I want the surprise of battle, the win by good planning or the loss as a really poor idea made manifest - However theres surely nothing wrong know what species your going up against?

although for me.... I dont care - that purgation squad is comming - needed or not - it just sounds sooo awesome!


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, considering strike squads are shite against nids, they wouldnt be list tailoring. here is a good tailored list to kill nids
Crowe
Libby with teleport homer and assortment of gimp powers

10 Purifiers, 4psycannons, 4 halberds, 2 hammers
10 Purifiers, 4psycannons, 4 halberds, 2 hammers
8 Purifiers, 2psycannons, 4 halberds, 2 hammers


3 acolytes: Chimaera

5x Purgation Dudesmen with incinerators
5x Purgation Dudesmen with incinerators
5x Purgation Dudesmen with incinerators


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I don't want to be the one arguing balancing an unbalanced game... But I do believe that each force had it's own methods of dealing with it's weaknesses. I almost always use Gauntlet of Fire on my Necrons, because i'm notorious for shite rolls to hit. However, I play against pretty well exclusively Dark Eldar, and that weapon tends to clean up on those guys. Conversely, I haven't played against less than 8 or 9 (usually 13 or 14  )Dark Lance from him, neutering my higher armour values. Are we list tailoring, or just exploiting our force's strengths? 
In the Grey Knight example, you'll be removing handfuls of Tyranids at a time, but if your list looks like Mcmuffins, you barely have a handful of models yourself. I'd play against you.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Isnt the whole IG codex full of list tayloring units? Look at all the special kinds of Rus there is. They are all super specialized into doing one thing. So if i wanted to use punishers vs orks but not vs SM, isnt that just common sense? I am new to this idea of list tayloring, no one has ever mentioned it at the store i play at.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

List Tailoring is USUALLY used by dickheads who aren't interested in playing competitively, merely in winning and doubtless bragging about their so-called prowess. 

The kind of things they do include waiting until they see your list/models before they write their own list; swapping out weapons, such as dropping Meltas for Flamers against Nids; or using greater financial resources (children are a favourite prey for this type of vermin) to get units that are [almost] literally unkillable for you (eg, taking a Wraithlord against a Guard army with no ranged anti-tank weapons.)

In USUAL circumstances, being someone who Tailors his list proves you are a tool and a jerk.

What you suggest Mags, is not the same thing - but do you really think that it's possible to have a Tournament that way without some dickhead spoiling it for everyone? Like 'swapping in' the Doom for a game against Blob Guard or Paladins? Like exchanging Psyflemen for Incinerator Dreadknights against Nids? Or swapping Ghost Arks for Night Scythes against DE?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Sure people being dicks is people being dicks and that is unacceptable in any circumstance but I'd just call them dicks rather than list tailoring with has a different implication for me. 

But I get the idea and I agree that people taking advantage of things outside of the Codex, like superior financial resources is pretty poor. That is why I like sportsmanship to carry a lot of weight in tournaments.

If you're silly enough to give someone your list before the other guy has written theirs then you deserve all you get. "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"

And again my thoughts with the tournie idea were you can select a subset of your overall force for each game would always be based on the idea that all you know before you swap lists is the Codex you are playing against, not the full list. 

If you are choosing 1500 points out of a force pool of 2000 points (for example) I don't see that you can make your force TOO specific to task, just help it along a bit. You could even limit it to simply allowing some changes to load out.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Lord Azune said:


> Seriously dude? Your over confidence could very well be your downfall. Nids are not as crappy against you as you may think. There are numerous good builds they can field or he could just surprise you completely with something you thought was stupid. Sure, they along with Daemons suffer from lack of transports but by no means are they helpless against GK.



I am confidant that if I take 5 strike squads nothing in the nids codex would worry me. str 5 storm bolters that ignore your saves. Force weapons for all. GG nids.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Taking 3 purgation squads when only facing nids is list tailoring, and really not sporting. If you take three of them in most games you play as part of an all comers list then it's fine but taking them specifically only when knowing your opponents' race/list is not cool. 

I too wouldn't rule tyranids completely out of the picture when facing grey knights. If they can get into melee (which is eminently possible) they stand a fair chance of winning.

Warriors or shrikes with lashwhips and boneswords will eat strike squads thanks to better combat characteristics and shadow in the warp. Likewise tervigons will be able to shrug off Grey Knights in close combat and even strength 5 storm bolters won't particularly bother them, all the while spitting out gaunts. 

Some venomthropes can take the sting out of your shooting (which even without isn't that terryfiying. A full strike squad using storm bolters will kill on average 12 gaunts [which is the average number of replacements each tervigon will be popping out] without cover. If they're doing that then they're on foot and will be caught and eaten) and shadow in the warp will ruin your force weapon chances. 

Grey Knights are fewer in number than normal marines and not much better in close combat, the nid player can win if he reaches close combat. Even if he doesn't kill you he can still tie up your units and have enough left enough to claim the objectives. 

It really won't be as one sided as you seem to believe providing the tyranid player has a good list.

-edit in fact i dare you to take 5 strike squads. They are some of the worst units you could choose from your codex to face tyranids. If you really think that the tyranids will be a complete push over, please take them.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Rems said:


> Taking 3 purgation squads when only facing nids is list tailoring, and really not sporting. If you take three of them in most games you play as part of an all comers list then it's fine but taking them specifically only when knowing your opponents' race/list is not cool.
> 
> I too wouldn't rule tyranids completely out of the picture when facing grey knights. If they can get into melee (which is eminently possible) they stand a fair chance of winning.
> 
> ...


Warriors cost more than strike members and get no save in shooting. If you did get to close combat I would pass FW likely before the end of the battle.

Tervigons? Force weapons. More often than not I pass my test even in shadow in the warp. Call it luck, what ever. I play against nids 80% of the time and crush him every time. 

I can choose to back up in shoot or go forward and shoot. Your only choice is to come forward. The odds of you getting the charge on me is poor. I can fight from cover, you dont get grenades so you strike at ini 1. 

Knights are FAR better in close combat than normal marines. Force weapons for all and storm bolters for 4 points? Yep. Strike squads are the worst thing I can take against nids? Yeah thats the point. The worst thing I can take is still too much for nids to handle.

Dont assume that my squads are vanilla. They will get psycannons and/or incinerators. Gaunts? lol Tervigons? lol. The only scary things you can field are warriors which are points heavy and slow or zoanthroaps which die easy enough.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sothot said:


> In the Grey Knight example, you'll be removing handfuls of Tyranids at a time, but if your list looks like Mcmuffins, you barely have a handful of models yourself. I'd play against you.


Purifiers will kill everything they touch in a nid army, Force Weapons for killing MCs, Cleansing Flame for your Hordes and Hammerhand for whatever. genestealers will be shot to shit by the withering amount of psycannons. The number off models doesn't matter, it's the fact that you can't engage in combat or outshoot them, they will wreck you with both. The libby will let the purgies drop in from inside the chimaera with the other small purie unit. then warp rift the shit out of something or whatever. The small amount of models doesnt matter, because you will struggle to kill them

Also, yes strikes are better in combat than normal marines. Does that make them good in combat? No.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

mcmuffin said:


> ... The libby will let the purgies drop in from inside the chimaera with the other small purie unit.


What do you mean by that mate?


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> Purifiers will kill everything they touch in a nid army, Force Weapons for killing MCs, Cleansing Flame for your Hordes and Hammerhand for whatever. genestealers will be shot to shit by the withering amount of psycannons. The number off models doesn't matter, it's the fact that you can't engage in combat or outshoot them, they will wreck you with both. The libby will let the purgies drop in from inside the chimaera with the other small purie unit. then warp rift the shit out of something or whatever. The small amount of models doesnt matter, because you will struggle to kill them
> 
> Also, yes strikes are better in combat than normal marines. Does that make them good in combat? No.



Against a squad of 15 genestealers? No. But you would never have that many by the time Im done shooting you.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> Against a squad of 15 genestealers? No. But you would never have that many by the time Im done shooting you.


 You shoot kill around 5, charge them and cleansing flame, killing about 4-5, halberds hit and kill 2 more, get hit back by the stealers, lose maybe two puries, then kill them off


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Shooting would kill about 9. And purifyers are not needed. Strike squads are more than enough.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> You have to factor in that If I take strike squads, im list tailoring. If I take purifyers, IM tailoring, If I take Purgation squads, im tailoring. Everything I play gimps nids.
> 
> Also, its not like my opponent doesnt know a month in advance that he will be playing gray knights. I dont care what he takes at all. As far as im concerned, he cant make a list that will beat the gray knights codex.


This embodies everything I hate about GK.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

I can understand why list tailoring is viewed the way it is by so many, but if all the participants of a battle tailor their lists, then surely it would be a better game? I mean me and my mate who used to field Tau had some awsome battle when we taylored our lists to batter each other. Which was interesting because at the end of the day he still didn't know what i'd use until the battle began.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm sure it CAN be - but not if both players don't have their full collections, and equally diverse options.

For instance, imagine one of the two players attempting to do so was using the old Necrons Codex. He had no capacity for change, save to swap Heavy Destroyers for Monoliths or Scarabs. Whoop.

While obviously there aren't really any Codexes quite as constrained as that today, there are certainly more limitations in the older book creaking at the seams than the 5th Edition ones.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So are you saying is the notion of list tailoring being bad is just due to the now outdated codices ?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

List tailoring for me is purposely changing your list to gain an advantage you would not normally play. Personally I do not have a huge issue with it if the option is then given to the other player to alter their list in response to yours. I play Nids, Eldar, and Tau on a semi regular basis and could alter my stock SW list I am using to make their game a lot harder. If I plan to do this I will ask them and let them adapt to it. It is more a change of pace than a purposely created advantage due to advance knowledge. This is a game I do for shits and giggles, not something I have to go out of my way to win at or I feel less.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So are you saying is the notion of list tailoring being bad is just due to the now outdated codices ?


nooo it's just a possibility, and is much more likely to occur when you don't know who your playing. As im sure if a friend had necrons but no new models or anything you'd borrow a new dex of the shelf for the game (they dont mind this at warhammer world, i dunno bout your store) and wouldnt really care what is represented...i mean it's friends after all.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No. Never do I limit myself by saying only the reasons I've already given are reasons for me being right.

It is, however, important, as the nature of the game and Codex release schedule means that some races will always be behind the curve.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So are you saying is the notion of list tailoring being bad is just due to the now outdated codices ?


List tailoring is bad because it leads to hideously unbalanced games and means Nid and Daemon players don't get to win game. Ever. 

You'll see in tounries everyone take mech heavy lists full of anti-mech. That's what you call a Meta game choice, not list tailoring.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

LOL Meta game choice, love it. Do you work for a politician?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> LOL Meta game choice, love it. Do you work for a politician?


Erm....that's just what it's called. Meta-game is a well understood term in most list-building games with a competitive element. There's no mystery to it. Everyone does it to one extent or another. It's why Long Fangs are so powerful, they are always a good Meta choice and why purg squads are a bad choice.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I actually wouldn't say meta-game choice was entirely accurate. It's true to an extent, but it's not JUST the Codexes that promote the use of Transport vehicles and Mechanised armies, the Core rules make Vehicles much harder to destroy than Infantry too (for obvious reasons...)

In summary - infantry must be hit, wounded, and fail a save.
Vehicles usually have to be hit, penetrated or glanced, often have a cover save AND they then only get destroyed straight away by 1/3 results inflicted by non-AP1 weapons, unless it's a Glance, in which case it's impossible to one-shot a non Open-Topped vehicle with a non-AP1 weapon, that isn't a Flat Out Skimmer.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Tanks are good so what do you put in your army? Lots of Tanks, so what do you need to be able to counter in your army? Lots of tanks. That is a Meta-game choice.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I must side with Aramoro on the meta issue. You guys have to understand, I dont want to wipe the floor with my friend. I just want to be able to use a unit that I never get to use, simply because its viable against his army.... and pretty much only his army since every other army is meched to the wall.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Tanks are good so what do you put in your army? Lots of Tanks, so what do you need to be able to counter in your army? Lots of tanks. That is a Meta-game choice.


I see your point, but I think that it requires a different terminology than metagame, which relates to player choice and popularity, rather than something forced on you by the rules.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> I must side with Aramoro on the meta issue. You guys have to understand, I dont want to wipe the floor with my friend. I just want to be able to use a unit that I never get to use, simply because its viable against his army.... and pretty much only his army since every other army is meched to the wall.


What you are doing however is not Meta-gaming. It's counter picking based on the fact you know what he's playing. If you were going to a tournament and you knew a bunch of Nid players would be there fair enough. But this is just 'LOL I vaporise your army' which won't make for a very entertaining game for your opponent.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

No games are very entertaining for him. He plays nids. It always consists of him getting ripped apart by bolters, hammer/shield terminators, force weapons and plasma. Since everyone plays marines.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Ah so your idea is just to make the game faster thus reducing his misery? Well in that case go for it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

In that case, why not simply roll a d6 at the start of the game, that's the turn he loses on.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Since when are nids an auto loss to marines?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Not sure where you get the idea that GK are auto win against tyranids but it just simply isn't true. 

You talk about their amazing shooting but besides the psydreads and vindicare the overwhelming average range of GK is 24 inches. Unless you are playing a really bad nid player you will get 1 round of shooting (if that) before the nids get in combat. With the exception of purifiers nids are better in CC than GK and SoW will shut down a lot of your powers.

Then there is the outflankng, infiltrating, deep striking and just appearing that can get nids into your lines super fast.

I actually like playing GK with my nids because the games are always very close. It isn't point and shoot for either army by any means.


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## Seppuku (Jan 8, 2012)

Hey everyone, I love this thread! Why? Because it addresses 4 major concerns about the game: 1) List tailoring and sportsmanship, 2) The Mech Heavy Meta-Game, 3) Codex Creep, and 4) Humanity Bias/Representation. I have a few opinions on each...

1) List tailoring and sportsmanship:

I personally do not list-tailor. I like to play in tournaments, so the more well rounded I can make my force the better. It's a personal choice. On the flip side; if my opponents want to list-tailor that's their choice. It doesn't bother me, because winning on a Tuesday night isn't as important to me as winning round 3 on Saturday. If I can beat a guy specifically tailoring to take me down, then I know I'll be more prepared for well-rounded lists in tournaments. 

And let's be honest, tournament lists are just as often built for exploitation as they are balance. The guys with all bikes or all land raiders or all jump infantry are exploiting threshholds and trying to leverage that through a tournament. The trade-off is glaring strength for glaring weakness. Your glass cannon bike army may struggle in a difficult terrain laiden game, or in the mirror match. 

To address questions about flexible tournament lists: It's called a "Side Bar" tournament. Bring 500 or 1000 points of your core force, and have two or three "Side Bar" lists of maybe 500 points. These lists could represent your turn as attacker or defender or for specific scenarios. Often these tournaments are exclusive, as they are difficult to run and take relatively patient tournament organizers and participants. Club events and invitiationals often have "Side Bar" tournaments and they are truly a blast!

2) The Mech Heavy Meta-Game

Tanks are tough to destroy, tanks get cover, and tanks can pump out firepower or troops or silly vacuuming tricks (I'm looking at you, Monolith). Tanks also can be slain by one lucky bullet. Maybe 12 tanks won't but then the player with 12 tanks finds a serious shortage of fleshy fingers to take objectives. Anti-tank seems to be very prolific, but also serves well against other targets. 

In 3rd edition Eldar and IG used tanks, and that was the short list. 4th edition killed transports because of penetration driven disembarkation and pinning. Now tanks roam every codex and virtually every list, but anti-tank is far more popular. While some armies may or may not field tanks, every army has multiple methods for destroying tanks via bright lances or chain fists or zoanthropes or whatever. 

I feel the game is now more risky, as a player striving to exploit the benefits of tanks can be staring at an empty board with one lucky round of shooting. It is very difficult to remove an entire infantry squad with one bullet. 

This past Saturday I fielded my Orks against a Blood Angels player using razorbacks, vindicators, Baal predators, a dreadnought and a stormraven. He had 27 infantry models. I dominated primary objective (Kill Points), secondary objective (Table Quarters) and tertiary objective (5x Objectives) simply by popping a few tanks early. He lost the ability to take table quarters or objectives through the simple destruction of a few transports and a dozen infantry. 

The point is the Mech Heavy Meta is very risky. Despite the variations on tank availability, every list can destroy tanks. I personally feel that Mech Heavy armies expose themselves to incredible risk. Conversely, a canny player knowing the limitations of Mech Heavy destruction can exploit the current Meta through an infantry only list. Consider the IG platoon, able to place 21 heavy weapons and 12 special weapons on the table for around 900 points. Zero tanks (though Heavy Weapon Squads are extremely susceptible to Anti-Tank fire), and the opportunity to destroy a 2000 point Mech Heavy army in one turn of shooting. 

3) Codex Creep

Tyranids currently have the worst of both worlds. Tyranids have no tanks, but are completely susceptible to anti-tank shooting. The lack of eternal warrior on Warriors and Shrikes and Raveners is silly, and an over-reaction to their previous codex. Now, they can't take advantage of the Mech Heavy Meta opportunities, but are susceptible to every list built to crush Mech. That's a tough spot! 

People used to tailor lists to fight NidZilla. In fact, NidZilla was my only loss at GT Baltimore with my bike army (4th edition codex). Unfortunately the over-reaction to NidZilla both with the new dex and the new edition have made that army sub-optimal.

I feel Deployment, Execution, and Mission Objective focus win far more games than the codex. Everyone can build lists, but great players will win based on those three priorities. However, the current GK codex is specifically tailored to take advantage of 5th edition rules. Plenty of anti-transport (16+ Str 7 shots in a troop choice), low kill points, and highly versatile troops (Purifiers, Paladins, Terminators, basic GK) sporting power weapons et al.

Codexes Creep in power. That's simple. Every new book needs to inspire sales. Making the great units from the last codex less desirable in the new codex is standard. Making 
every new army slightly more powerful or versatile than the previous is standard. 

Three distinct codexes did not follow the second standard: Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines. Great armies can still be made with these books, great players will win with these books, but they have some limited applications. I would wager the 3rd edition Craftworld Eldar codex supplement would fare better in tournaments than the 4th edition book they have now. (Biel-Tan was a beast, right?) 

Think about how often you see these books (Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines) at the top tables. At the tournament I played this Saturday the top 3 tables incuded for the final round included GK (overall winner), 3x Blood Angels, IG, and Orks (me). 


4) Humanity Bias/Representation

I mentioned I used to play a Space Marine Bike army in 4th edition. I went to a tournament with 12 players. 9 Marine armies, 1 Tyranids, 1 Necrons, 1 Deathwing. It sucked. I realized I was part of the problem and haven't played them since. Marines are extremely popular, as they are:
1) Versatile - Shoot all you want, Move all you want, Give your whole army fleet if you want, deep strike and assault if you want, and the power armor save will smother many mistakes
2) Accessible - Everybody sells them, eBay could net you a full force for $200 or less, and they are on every poster and every video game surrounding the 40K universe
3) Forgiving - Power armor, ATSKNF, Feel No Pain, and a variety of rules make Marines forgiving. Can't paint faces? Play Marines. Want to use 3 colors? Play Marines. 

Humanity and their finest have always been coddled by the rules systems, and will always be encouraged by the sales / codex / Heavy Metal / White Dwarf teams. For every great Dark Eldar book you will get Blood Angels. For every twist of the new Necrons you will have Grey Knights. Name an army more favored by the Mech Heavy Meta than IG. 

Supposedly 6th will be the rise of Xenos, but I'm sure the GW Board of Directors doesn't want to kill the golden goose of Space Marines. I am thrilled that Dark Eldar got an awesome codex. I really like the new Necron models, as they truly embody the distincy mechanical feel of the force. Will Eldar and Tau and Tyranids reap the same benefits over the next 18 months? I hope so!

Long story short, this thread really tied together a lot of concepts. I don't list tailor, but I don't mind when folks do. Everyone brings guns to kill tanks and Tyranids suffer for it. In equal hands new books will beat old books. I don't play Marines because everyone plays Marines, even if that limits the power of my armies.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

In 15 ish games I have never lost to tyranids. That's where I got the idea. Never even close.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

What kind of lists is he taking and how good a player is he? (this tyranid player).

If he's losing every game he play's then i'd say it has more to do with him being a poor player and list builder, rather than the all the marine players being awesome or nids being unable to compete with marines (which is simply not true. A challange yes, but they can win and compete).


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Seppuku, that warrants a more comprehensive response than 2:30 am can provide...

*mental note*


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> When I make lists I always make All Comers list.
> 
> That being said I have never won a game against Nids. I don't play against them a lot, so that doesn't help me either. With this in mind I've been trying to find something to add that will help me, and I think I have it. But that's for another thread at a later date.
> 
> Anywho I have to agree with most of the other people and say yes it is wrong to do that because it *IS* list tailoring.


This.



JelloSea said:


> In 15 ish games I have never lost to tyranids. That's where I got the idea. Never even close.


So why do you feel the need to kill list your _friend_?


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I feel like were all about average players and any marines list picks him apart. He runs different lists every time. Zoanthroaps, Hive guard, hive tyrant, genestealers are his usual staples though.


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