# When did You Stop Caring?



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

At what point did you realize, you no longer cared about the 40k fluff??

This is more for the senior members, but I find that there is going to be a point in every fans life cycle where they just don't care about the fluff. We all still like 40k, but we no longer obsess about knowing every detail, or who could beat who, or even posting on a forum is too much work.

It's the nature of this fandom. There is nothing changing story wise, and even this forum, has the same posts today as it did when I signed up in 2010, just new authors. 

So again when did you stop caring? Mine easily was after Know No Fear and First Heretic. I enjoyed the books and wanted to know more, but I stopped going to this forum heavily after those books. I found I didn't really care what others thought on this universe.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

I stopped caring about wh40k fluff after necrons where retconned to use their former masters like pokemons into battle and where made cooperate in good faith with blood angels. The grimdark feeling just died there.
Also, the whole Tau turd that gw shove down our throat in a desperate attempt (at the time) to save a game from dying.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

CJay said:


> I found I didn't really care what others thought on this universe.


This all day, every day. The butt-hurt on forums (this one included) regarding fluff is friggin' ridiculous.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

neferhet said:


> I stopped caring about wh40k fluff after necrons ... [and]... the whole Tau turd...


Necrons and Tau. When they were added in 3rd ed I checked out. They were stupid then and are stupid now. Anime market grab and Egyptianate undead-bots (e.g. pseudo space tomb kings) were unnecessary and lazy additions to the game world.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Haven't stopped caring about it after a decade of reading. 

Information is power.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

hailene said:


> Haven't stopped caring about it after a decade of reading.
> 
> Information is power.


Information on a fictional universe is power....


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> Information on a fictional universe is power....


If you break any activity to its constituent parts it's going to look stupid.

I enjoy the WH40k universe. I read a lot about it. I think about it.

It's no worse than sports nerds that memorize player stats and who won which championship in X year. If you enjoy it, do it. If not, then not.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm just not as invested as I was when I was a kid. I think the universe is still pretty cool, but there's this abstract concept of 40k that I have which the current publications don't quite reflect anymore.



hailene said:


> ...It's no worse than sports nerds that memorize player stats and who won which championship in X year. If you enjoy it, do it. If not, then not.


Absolutely true.


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## R_Squared (Mar 24, 2013)

Can take it or leave it. The fluff doesn't really matter to me, never has done. I barely even read the fluffy bits in the codex's.
I did read some of the HH novels, they hooked me back into 40k, but they got a bit boring after a while so I only read bits occasionally.

It isn't the most sophisticated Sc-Fi, there's much better out there, but it does satisfy my inner teenager when I get the urge to read it. It's full of unsophisticated heroes, and straightforward plot lines, like a Mills and Boon novel.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Simply put; I never did. While I don't find all areas equally interesting, I thoroughly enjoy the fluff and the whole universe regarding 40k.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

same as nordicus, yeah I care about some parts more then others. but I never stopped caring, I love the fluff even.

!, wait, am I a senior member? or shouldn't I rather count the point where I started playing/reading?


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I am an easy enough going guy, takes a lot to push me into the red, but Angel Exterminatus was the last straw, if there is a hell for shit books that will be in its foundations. Im back to smoking my hobby dope rather than injecting


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There are some things that have made me sneer, like the newer GK/Mordrak/ Draigo fluff, but more at the writers than the universe as a whole. I've enjoyed watching the universe evolve over the last 25 years or so, and will continue to keep up with it. I just wish they'd move it along at a slightly swifter pace.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I haven't stopped caring. But a lot of things have gone on that's made me a little less interested in following it a rigorously. And to be perfectly honest, a lot of that comes down to Ward. To me he ruined the fluff of the various Astartes chapters so much that it was almost irreparable. But it's nothing on what he did to the Grey Knights. The Knights always used to be this awesome force, not a lot on them, but what little was known was epic. Then Ward comes along, and I don't know, he just seemed to make so many different aspects of them that they somehow ended up losing what made them so unique and bad ass. Then came fucking Draigo.

Other than that though, nothing seems to be happening. Sure the defence of Baal might turn up eventually. But honestly we know the result of that before it starts. There's not a chance in this world that GW would ever kill the Blood Angels off. So in the event they do progress that, expect a healthy amount of Deus Ex Machina to resolve the issue. I doubt they'd even kill off a major character like Dante or Mephiston. Hell they killed Tycho off and he still appears in every codex. 

Another turning point for me, was when the 13th Black Crusade campaign didn't end the way they wanted it to, so they just retconned it instead. That really rubbed against me in a bad way. 

But yeah, I still follow it, I still care. I'm just a little more jaded about it all since Ward and don't follow it quite so religiously as before.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> I doubt they'd even kill off a major character like Dante or Mephiston.


I would have said the same thing until we saw how they've dealt with the WFB End Times series. They've proved they're willing to wield the axe, and hopefully that axe will be applied to 40k soon.


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

It goes round in circles GW seems to spend time & effort in creating an original setting for the history of a chapter or race & then a few years down the line suddenly decides that its not working & changes it but seems to not offer a real reason for doing so...

Yes the original Deathwing history from Space Hulk V1 showing them to be almost Native American was fresh & good to see, explained why they changed the armour to bone.
I kind of struggled to understand the original Blood Angels story where it seems that they lost almost all of the 1st company in a space hulk but never went into much detail.

Yes it did get a bit silly with the whole GK setting with the shennigans that occured, Tau were an oh so bandwagon attempt to grab some anime pie & the Necron changes were imo a good thing because it helped you to work out your own style for your force. We all blame Ward for the pants on head stories that appeared in the codex's but in the end someone had read them & classed them fine to proceed. 

Sometimes yes characters do need to be bumped off to advance a story but as we know the time line has not advanced a whole lot in the 30+ yrs it has been around. I just read some of the fluff now as filler & its used to try & pique interest in units that don't normally see the light of day much, only if they don't buff them in the new codex (looking at banshees here).

The whole 13th black crusade was something that those of us who took part in it had great pride in because at the time we were moving the story along & because it didn't work out as wanted it gets dropped thats when I stopped caring


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

CJay said:


> There is nothing changing story wise, and even this forum, has the same posts today as it did when I signed up in 2010, just new authors.


Except the 'recovery' and releasing of information that occurred between the Heresy and present time. There are ten thousand years of events that happened and we know of only a fraction, why do people insist we only push the present forward when theres so much left unknown?

Also, as far as this or any forum is concerned. Someone asking a question that was asked one month, year, or edition ago is nothing bad. It simply means that question has not been answered, or the answer eluded their grasp in a search.

I'd rather the question is asked and answered than left unspoken and someone goes on without the information and possibly doing something wrong.




Haskanael said:


> !, wait, am I a senior member? or shouldn't I rather count the point where I started playing/reading?


The call for only 'senior' members to post is a bit dumb honestly. You could have been playing since rogue trader but only register on this forum today. The title under your name will say junior member, but your possible knowledge and insight could be invaluable. Same goes for someone who's been a member for five years, barely posts or interacts with the hobby, and now has the title of senior member.



Angel of Blood said:


> And to be perfectly honest, a lot of that comes down to Ward.


I'm sorry but fucking no, stop whinging that Ward has ruined the background and fluff. Its not solely his call, and I'm sure he didn't write everything we didn't like. There are others involved, including those who have to agree with the changes made. He clearly isn't the only one responsible, and I doubt all the changes we dislike are all from him. (Are some? Yes. All? No.) 



Angel of Blood said:


> Another turning point for me, was when the 13th Black Crusade campaign didn't end the way they wanted it to, so they just retconned it instead. That really rubbed against me in a bad way.


They didn't really retcon it away because the result wasn't what they wanted. In fact, unless I am mistaken, they rather liked the outcome.

Fact is the outcome hasn't technically changed, it just hasn't happened yet (its about to, as opposed to just concluded.)



the_barwn said:


> We all blame Ward for the pants on head stories that appeared in the codex's but in the end someone had read them & classed them fine to proceed.


Thank the gods, someone else who is actually saying this? Have a rep cookie.



the_barwn said:


> as we know the time line has not advanced a whole lot in the 30+ yrs it has been around.


And again, lot of history that hasn't been covered even without moving forward.



the_barwn said:


> The whole 13th black crusade was something that those of us who took part in it had great pride in because at the time we were moving the story along & because it didn't work out as wanted it gets dropped thats when I stopped caring


Again, unless I'm mistaken I believe GW liked the outcome.



Khorne's Fist said:


> I would have said the same thing until we saw how they've dealt with the WFB End Times series. They've proved they're willing to wield the axe, and hopefully that axe will be applied to 40k soon.


The problem here is that there are three possible endings to 40k: Chaos wins, Tyranids consume the galaxy, Necrons seal the warp and win. Fantasy really only had one outcome, chaos winning; the warhammer world had an open wound to the realm of chaos in the northern pole (with no way to close it.) And it was only a matter of time before the inhabitants of the warhammer world lost enough ground to chaos, the events of the End Times simply hastened that outcome.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

CJay said:


> Information on a fictional universe is power....


I once chatted up a cutie with "_Adeo mori servus Imperator fictus; ave Dominus Nox_", so you might be surprised k:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

the_barwn said:


> Tau were an oh so bandwagon attempt to grab some anime pie


I've always heard this...but I never really got this. As an avid anime fan, I don't really see it in the Tau background, troops, or methodology. 

Maybe the battlesuits, but those look just as similar--if not more so--to a Mech Warrior elemental suit than any sort of anime mecha.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

darkreever said:


> I'm sorry but fucking no, stop whinging that Ward has ruined the background and fluff. Its not solely his call, and I'm sure he didn't write everything we didn't like. There are others involved, including those who have to agree with the changes made. He clearly isn't the only one responsible, and I doubt all the changes we dislike are all from him. (Are some? Yes. All? No.)


Fine, I'll blame them too. But the common denominator is Ward. Every single codex of his that I read was dog shit. So yeah, I am going to blame him. You put your name on it, you take the responsibility if it's shit, I'm sorry but that's life, happens in all walks of life. You see military chiefs or CEO's resigning all the time because of a big fuck up. Was it entirely their fault? Highly doubtful, but the point still stands. People can defend Ward all they want, but it's no coincidence that his codexes were the worst and the most negative opinions. So yeah I'm sorry but fucking no as well, I will keep blaming him, if I knew the rest of the team, they could get blamed too, but as I said, you stamp your name on the front, you better be damn certain what your producing isn't the biggest load of shite that GW has ever produced.

As for the Black Crusade, as far as I remember the fluff outcome they gave wasn't accurate to the campaign. Due to the disproportional amount of Space Marine, Eldar and Guard players, the Forces of Order curbstomped the shit out of Chaos to the point where the Crusade would have been a complete failure. Yet GW changed the fluff to show Chaos making a strong foothold in the Cadian system, killing Eldrad and now controlling the Cadian Gate, making the future waves easy access to go. Eldrad isn't dead now, the Cadian Gate is still in the Imperiums hands and the 13th Black Crusade is at the beginnings but Abaddon's forces already sound immensely more powerful than before. The Space Wolves 13th Company have vanished in all traces since the campaign as well.

I don't particularly care about moving forwards, sure it would be nice. But I'd be fine with more background between the Heresy and now. The wars for Armageddon were amazing and I want more like it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

darkreever said:


> The problem here is that there are three possible endings to 40k: Chaos wins, Tyranids consume the galaxy, Necrons seal the warp and win. Fantasy really only had one outcome, chaos winning; the warhammer world had an open wound to the realm of chaos in the northern pole (with no way to close it.) And it was only a matter of time before the inhabitants of the warhammer world lost enough ground to chaos, the events of the End Times simply hastened that outcome.


It's just a matter of scale. For North Pole warp portal see Eye of Terror. If there was a huge assault from and expansion of the Eye, it would mean a series of unlikely alliances between all the humanoid races to try and combat it. Sure, the Nids would still be chomping their way towards Terra, but if the 13th black crusade was only a precursor to something much, much bigger, like a demon primarch(s) led incursion, they could be temporarily ignored. It would be very easy to scale the whole thing up to a suitable level.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Have I stopped caring about 40k's fluff?

No, I have never really be into the micro details of 40k though; and some things I would rather not know - for example what ran through Horus' mind when he killed Sanguinius/died/etc.

Do I care about Marine "Loken" from the heresy, not so much - I care more about the back story of the creation of the Grey Knights, Why the Astral Claws stopped sending their Imperial Tithe...

I would like background info on as much stuff that we have where we only have "participated in the Campaign Olympus against the agents of chaos in Segmentum Solar" or wherever - Give me the info on the campaign - why was it fought, what started it, what forces were involved, etc, etc.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

I had a brief break when the Tau came out of some shiny "goodie-goodie" Mary Sue.

I like their look, but didn't liked their fluff.

Necrons were a little better tough.

And I liked the Deathwing Native American root. That was exotic, but still dark. When that was dropped, I was quite disappointed.

Heard a lot of bad thing about the work of Matt Ward, that keeped me away from the fluff for a time, nut I took the wagon back when I readed the 6th editions. This isn't all perfect now, but nothing is ever perfect anyway.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I have not as such stopped caring, but I have definitely started caring less than before. This is not to do anything with me being tired or bored with the setting, it is more with the quality (or rather, the lack of) in recent releases, especially from Black Library. All the shitty product placement stories and novellas are really burning out my interest and it takes real effort to get into any of these books. 
Still, I very much enjoy the setting and the lore when I find something good to read, such as _The Gothic War_ by Gordon Rennie. But I find it rather depressing that I look forward to re-prints more than I do towards most of the new publications.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

With the emphasis less on fluff in the new books and the Heresy getting its ass dragged through every bit of dirt, I just think there's less to discuss. 

I still consider 40k one of the best sci fi settings out there, even with the changes I've seen. 


But aside from that, attitudes like a few of the ones in this thread (dislike of change, blaming Ward etc) have made discussing potentially interesting points a lot less appealing.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> attitudes like a few of the ones in this thread (dislike of change, blaming Ward etc) have made discussing potentially interesting points a lot less appealing


Preach it. I read a lot if not all of the fluff threads but rarely post because it's not worth getting involved in the either ongoing or brewing shit-storm of nerd rage. Sometimes I just read them to witness the gong show, not even interested in what's actually being said about the fluff.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I wouldn't say I don't care, but I also wouldn't say I'm interested right now. If they were to start some huge new plot line where the Primarchs come back and huge changes happen, I would get very into it again. As of right now, I'm reading stories much more for their battle scenes and artistic inspiration than for the actual story. 

I love the universe, but the current plot has simply become too stagnant.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rather than immediately latch onto the negatives of the fluff, why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you? 

I know a lot of people preferred the necrons as soulless killing automatons, but the fluff provided still allows for a necron force to be exactly that. Tomb worlds can malfunction, necron memory banks have been erased rendering entire necron dynasties as little more than vessels for a single all controlling AI. The old necrons you supposedly preferred are still there, only now there are other necrons with more variety for those who prefer that instead. 

Ditto the c'tan, sure a lot of them are under necron control now, but the fluff also still allows for rogue star god shards to wreak havoc across the setting, and it is also made quite apparent that they are no less destructive for their supposed defeat. So what if the Emperor only beat a mere shard of the Dragon? Even a shard of a c'tan holds world ending power, so that deed is not diminished in the slightest. Same can be said for Uriel's battle with the Nightbringer, now assumed to be a shard, it still escaped and is now free to cause who knows what kind of harm elsewhere. 


Don't like the Blood Angels and necrons team up? The short story _Word of the Silent King_ fixes that anyway, by making it apparent that there was never more than an uneasy truce at best, and both sides fully intended to screw the other over at the earliest convenience. 

Don't like Draigo? Well I can't help you here. I think Draigo's fluff is fine. In fact of all the denizens of the Imperium of Man, I find his story to be the most hilariously tragic. Possibly the greatest hero mankind has to offer reduced to a mere plaything of the warp gods, doomed to show pointless defiance to his captors until he finally breaks and gives up. 

It's not that hard to see the bright side to any of these, or the dark side if you prefer to think of it that way.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

I kinda care about 40K fluff. I would say that the Tau stuff was interesting as an idea, but in the end they seemed to be a way in game terms to reintroduce Squats, without having space Dwarves (AKA the plasma techy race).
Necrons are an odd one. Once again it was a "We need to add a new thing to sell" moment, and the original release on a White Dwarf with a ballista pack attached was a first time they had ever done that. Though the rules for the model were insane. He had marine style armour and stats and every time he died he got back up with "I'll be back" on a 2+ unmodifiable, to top that he cost the same as a marine I think. The later releases of Necrons toned them down a lot, what left people upset that there nigh invulnerable warriors were now not as tough as before. But they did get a load of bonus units and stuff to add to their ranks rather than just Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers and Lord.

Retconned history is always an annoyance, but more so in my opinion is with Forge Worlds HH game when coming in to 40K. This shows that each legion / chapter has its own specialist units that are armoured in a different way and have different abilities and skills compared to others. Of course the SM codex has chapter traits as a partial thing like that and very old Chaos Codex 4th edition had each chapter having this own skill, but were did the:
Emps Children Phalanx Termys go and Palatine Blades (with some disorder having had the legion split up might have taken a bit of a toll, but you would still expect some people to be judged at the elites)
Death Guard Grave Warden and Deathshroud (technically also Deathshroud are all dead, but surely the idea of having Termys with Power Scythes lives on).
Iron Hand Gorgons and Immortals...
Of course things like Emps Children Kakophoni became Noise Marines and Word Eater Rampagers and Butchers became Berserkers. But it seems like so many other things have been lost for what appears to be little to no reason.
Personally I would LOVE to see FW bring out 40K rules for some of these units that even if not identical to the 30K versions, but at least similar enough to the original to keep the spirit of them. I wouldn't mind even having to pay a premium cost for some of these units. Of course for competitive play that would make them unusable, but since when have units like Mutilators or Warp Talons been worth taking.

It also annoys me as some of those above with things like the Black Crusade that clearly killed off several characters, only to have them reappear in the next book like nothing happened. If you are progressing the story, you shouldn't just say "Well that didn't happen yet in this edition." Surely with all the new units and vehicles that have been created, then the battle that people like Eldrad died in might not have happened because now he has a bunch of Wraithknights and stuff backing him up. This could have meant the games that were played and reported via the website to influence the results would not have played out as they did. At least in the Blood Angels book that came after some fight with some Orks I am sure I remember that they did put something in their to say "Tycho is dead, but you can still use him in historic battles."


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you?


Nerd-rage takes over for imagination. Forget that this is a sci-fi setting and pretty much anything goes 'because this person invented/did this and now it works'.



mayegelt said:


> At least in the Blood Angels book that came after some fight with some Orks I am sure I remember that they did put something in their to say "Tycho is dead, but you can still use him in historic battles."


Not in the current book. There's a paragraph or so of fluff describing each version, none of which states anything about using the model in historic battles. Just the normal version and the version of him before he died. 

"Some fight with the Orks" :laugh: GW only did the largest store-wide campaign EVER for that battle, a little conflict called the Third War for Armageddon. I remember it going down and each country/continent that had GW stores in it controlled a portion of the map of Armageddon, and their wins/losses were entered into a database and the outcome was decided as such.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

ntaw said:


> Not in the current book. There's a paragraph or so of fluff describing each version, none of which states anything about using the model in historic battles. Just the normal version and the version of him before he died.
> 
> "Some fight with the Orks" :laugh: GW only did the largest store-wide campaign EVER for that battle, a little conflict called the Third War for Armageddon. I remember it going down and each country/continent that had GW stores in it controlled a portion of the map of Armageddon, and their wins/losses were entered into a database and the outcome was decided as such.


I was at work, so going from memory as work computers tend to block various sites. I couldn't remember which one of the Armageddons it was. Either way dead version must then be for historic battles if there is a post death version of him (Death Company ret con) as well. Either way that was going back to 4th maybe 5th edition?
If you keep bringing people back from the grave it takes away emersion in the story. Mainly because the story would have to go something like
"NOOOOOOO You killed Sanguinius!!!! DAMN YOU HORUS YOU WILL PAY FOR THAT! But first just let me cast rez. Everything you do means nothing bitch LOLZ!"
Or
"Horus having mortally wounded the Emperor but in doing so had been broken by the psychic attack that the Lord of Mankind had unleashed on him, this had forced the Warmaster to flee to the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile on Terra, the agents of mankind seeing no other option hurried the body of the Emperor to the Golden Throne in hopes to recover from his wounds. Before sitting in on the Golden Throne a voice was heard from the entrance they had just come from, it spoke softly and said 'Why are we doing this?... If he dies we can just bring him back with full health and he might just loose a bit of XP like me.' And so it was the Emperor died that day but was reborn thanks to the Maguffin of wisdom and helpful Sanguinius who had been ressed only minutes before."
Such is the fate of MMOs that have NPC character death and everyone wonders why they don't just find the local healer char to rez them if the body is still there and everything will be all better.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> Retconned history is always an annoyance, but more so in my opinion is with Forge Worlds HH game when coming in to 40K. This shows that each legion / chapter has its own specialist units that are armoured in a different way and have different abilities and skills compared to others. Of course the SM codex has chapter traits as a partial thing like that and very old Chaos Codex 4th edition had each chapter having this own skill, but were did the...


Retconning is definitely annoying and disruptive. Sharing new content only to have it change after the community has learned it. 

As for the 40k/Horus Heresy comparison, I'm not sure this is a fair criticism. Not because the two settings have such dissonance but because they're effectively owned by separate entities. And those companies have different purposes; GW is the main brand and Forge World is the luxury line of the luxury line. That's kind of like buying a Toyota and then sending an angry letter that your Toyota doesn't have the amenities of a Lexus. 40K just wasn't built with the amenities of Forge World. 

As a fan I would love to see more of the heresy content trickle into 40K, but I suspect it's hard with to manage 1 stable of content without bolting on another. 

The other difference to consider is that story wise 40K is essentially running in place on a treadmill and needs to be a sort of one-size-fits-all setting. The Heresy setting by contrast is very specific; it's telling the exact story of named battles, with named characters, in known places, and using 'historical' forces. Under these specific controls it's much easier to create theme, and mood if not balance. (I just don't know how balanced it really is.)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Fine, I'll blame them too. But the common denominator is Ward. Every single codex of his that I read was dog shit. So yeah, I am going to blame him. You put your name on it, you take the responsibility if it's shit, I'm sorry but that's life, happens in all walks of life. You see military chiefs or CEO's resigning all the time because of a big fuck up. Was it entirely their fault? Highly doubtful, but the point still stands. People can defend Ward all they want, but it's no coincidence that his codexes were the worst and the most negative opinions. So yeah I'm sorry but fucking no as well, I will keep blaming him, if I knew the rest of the team, they could get blamed too, but as I said, you stamp your name on the front, you better be damn certain what your producing isn't the biggest load of shite that GW has ever produced.
> 
> As for the Black Crusade, as far as I remember the fluff outcome they gave wasn't accurate to the campaign. Due to the disproportional amount of Space Marine, Eldar and Guard players, the Forces of Order curbstomped the shit out of Chaos to the point where the Crusade would have been a complete failure. Yet GW changed the fluff to show Chaos making a strong foothold in the Cadian system, killing Eldrad and now controlling the Cadian Gate, making the future waves easy access to go. Eldrad isn't dead now, the Cadian Gate is still in the Imperiums hands and the 13th Black Crusade is at the beginnings but Abaddon's forces already sound immensely more powerful than before. The Space Wolves 13th Company have vanished in all traces since the campaign as well.
> 
> I don't particularly care about moving forwards, sure it would be nice. But I'd be fine with more background between the Heresy and now. The wars for Armageddon were amazing and I want more like it.


I have to agree. The banging of the drum has not ended, I think it goes to show how extreme the change has been. I have been very skeptical about buying the codexes these last few years, despite being that type of person who used to collect them. There was a time where Codexes really had good information and provided a better foundation for already established fluff. Instead of giving more support, I feel the new codex fluff has shaken it. That goes back to old threads though.

I still care about fluff, but I think people can kind of sense if its shit or not based on who's writing it. I think it makes fluff conversations a lot harder to have than they used to be. For example, with all the curved balls thrown to fluff within the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if a new Heresy novel came out where it was Corax and the remaining Istvaan loyalists who stood their ground against the Traitor Legions and decimated them with bolts of lightning from their ass. 

I'd open a thread one day about the breaching of the walls and what each traitor legion was... where each loyalist legion was... and then someone who just read the new Gav Thorpe Heresy Novel goes on the thread and goes... "Nope... your all wrong." According to Gav Thorpe, it was Corax who defeated Horus. The Emperor simply transferred his power. I'll tell you... what a thread killer that will be. 


So to answer the question completely... Its kind of hard to say. There are some new pieces of fluff that a lot of us don't even talk about. I almost feel that the fluff has become WAY MORE pick this and chose that. Like I choose to believe some pieces of lore that are written didn't happen... but when those instances do become part of the discussion, I can't pretend they didn't happen. There's too much rubbish fluff which in my opinion is slowly killing the 40k world. 

The interesting thing about that, is that I'm sure many think this is simply my opinion. Maybe so, however, when lore fundamentally shakes fluff that is already established and has played a important part to fluff for several years, than I think its a bit more, and perhaps a lot more than just my simple opinion. I have no problem accepting fluff I don't like, and the Heresy series is a perfect example. It was when the rubbish poured in, that I actually appreciated a lot of the novels, I'd used to say weren't my taste. They still aren't my taste, but they still provide a foundation for the series and the lore. Its different when fluff just isn't your style, you didn't like what happened, something about it is controversial, etc... but there comes a point where you read something and almost question if your really reading something from the 40k world, and go, what the hell was that rubbish.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

The 30k -> 40k thing i said was more of an annoying thing that could have easily been worked out with the normal things that FW seem to have done with several different knight variants as well as tanks that work as both 30k & 40k stuff.
Like with the stompa, baneblade, lord of skulls and a few other things that have made there way from a FW book into a GW book (like apoc & escalation and now blood oath book) have FW stuff. Some of them have even changed to be plastic GW versions.
As you said, these items are "Premium" stuff, but doesn't prevent it being included in next edition of the codex if they wanna make them in GW cheep version or en just leave them as a premium product like a knight kinda is at £80 as a focal point and not a thing that is taken en mass, as they have with some mentioned above with 40k modified equivalents.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

mayegelt said:


> If you keep bringing people back from the grave it takes away emersion in the story.


Pretty sure you can find me posting in at least a couple threads (pre-7th edition Codex drop) stating that Tycho was and is a waste of space in the Codex and should be moved to an Armageddon campaign supplement if not dropped entirely. 

I'm all for advancing the story and moving 'known' things around. I definitely don't care enough about 40k that I'm gunna get ruffled by some retconned fluff and don't think anyone else should either. That just leads us right back to the nerd-rage shitstorm that we see on gaming forums, forcing so many people like me just stop caring about the conversation.

Three things to not bring up at a party: religion, politics, 40k fluff.


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## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

Originally I thought 40k fluff was base and unimaginative with words like melta, plasteel, and things of that nature. Seemed lazy.

That Iron Snakes novel, Brothers of the Snake or whatever, was what got me into 40k fluff. And 40k fluff has always irritated me but I like the overall feel of the galaxy.

Yes from a logical standpoint the Chaos Gods should win in the end but I've tried to think about 40k as if it were 30k and we didn't know anything that happened up until 40k. At that time the Emperor had restored Mankind to dominance, he had 20 demi-gods (while basically being a god himself) leading legions of super-humans on an all out slaughter of anything not-human. 

They crushed every alien before them from ork to elder. Chaos corrupted cultures (while not overt as we know them in 40k) we just as easily crushed. If we played Warhammer 30k at the height of the Great Crusade (well before the Heresy) we'd probably think the Emperor was going to win, all things considered. I still hold out hope that if the plot is advanced something else will happen, where the victor isn't as clear as we think it might be.

Sadly from what I understand the plot isn't going to advance for 40k like in Fantasy. Which, given the rumors I've heard and if this "bubble theory" has any credence, I'm actually glad. Fantasy was always the weaker setting better for it to be experimented upon than 40k.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Pretty sure you can find me posting in at least a couple threads (pre-7th edition Codex drop) stating that Tycho was and is a waste of space in the Codex and should be moved to an Armageddon campaign supplement if not dropped entirely.
> 
> I'm all for advancing the story and moving 'known' things around. I definitely don't care enough about 40k that I'm gunna get ruffled by some retconned fluff and don't think anyone else should either. That just leads us right back to the nerd-rage shitstorm that we see on gaming forums, forcing so many people like me just stop caring about the conversation.
> 
> Three things to not bring up at a party: religion, politics, 40k fluff.


:goodpost: ihave to agree with this..the nerd-rage does my head in..play the game..enjoy the hobby..and have fun...


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

hailene said:


> If you break any activity to its constituent parts it's going to look stupid.
> 
> I enjoy the WH40k universe. I read a lot about it. I think about it.
> 
> It's no worse than sports nerds that memorize player stats and who won which championship in X year. If you enjoy it, do it. If not, then not.


I was just using a snarky way to respond to your "knowledge is power" post, as if by knowing more about 40k makes you better than others. 

Anyway, this got bigger than I thought. I should clarify, "No longer cared," I meant that as, when did you stop buying every novel/novella, posting on the forums like mad, wanting to find out every little detail. I'm not saying you now hate 40k, we can all agree we enjoy 40k, but as this post has proven, there is a point where you have made up your own mind, and you kind of turn to only what you want to see.

Also for the guy who said it was dumb to say, "only for senior members" If I had seen this post when I first got into 40k, I would have assumed everyone here was an old geezer, who was upset their 100,000 figurine deep army was no longer canon.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

CJay said:


> when did you stop buying every novel/novella,


Personally, I have never tried to buy it all. Not gonna buy stuff I don't find or think I might find interesting just for the sake of completing a collection.



CJay said:


> posting on the forums like mad,


Probably around the time I bought a house, got over a bad breakup, was asked to work 50-60 hours a week, and started improving my overall health. You know, when I decided my real life was more important than my hobby.



CJay said:


> wanting to find out every little detail.


Still find myself doing this one.



CJay said:


> Also for the guy who said it was dumb to say, "only for senior members" If I had seen this post when I first got into 40k, I would have assumed everyone here was an old geezer, who was upset their 100,000 figurine deep army was no longer canon.


1. Squats aside, I don't believe any army is no longer canon, so where does that comment come from?
2. I said it was dumb to only ask for thoughts from members with the senior member title because time on this forum does not guarantee better input towards your question.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> Serpion5 said:
> 
> 
> > Rather than immediately latch onto the negatives of the fluff, why don't you at least try to interpret it in a way that is satisfactory to you?
> ...


The fact that you like this fluff is obvious. However, asking other to see the "light" side is a bit pretentious as it concludes it's something everyone should see as positive.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think Serpion has a solid point. I used to pick apart every piece of fluff I read and compare it to what I knew. Like it was a chemical reaction I had to piece together. So many mols of Space Marine power armor technology mixed with the correct amount of reverence a typical Imperial citizen should have for an Inquisitor...

It didn't work. It made me very unhappy with the (natural) inconsistencies of the universe. Now I read with a more open-mind, and I'm happier for it, generally.

I take these little hiccups in stride. Maybe the universe is a bit different from my own idea (or even its past). 

Others have some serious nasty mistakes, but rather than sit on those mistakes I just ignore them and move on. No point in wasting time and energy fuming about something I can't change.

The _really_ bad cases of authors trampling the fluff I just completely avoid nowadays. I'm happier for it, and I can still enjoy the rest of the WH40k universe.

I think it's sorta like stepping up to my "adult" fluff-hood from my adolescence. Where being "right" all the time takes the backseat to being happy, ya know?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

hailene said:


> Where being "right" all the time takes the backseat to being happy, ya know?


:goodpost: This is the key right here.



Deadeye776 said:


> However, asking other to see the "light" side is a bit pretentious as it concludes it's something everyone should see as positive.


He's not pretentious, he's just saying it's fiction and easy to put the spin you want on things. I've said much the same thing, it's kinda the point of this thread. The people that are getting upset about this stuff are choosing to and choosing to be vocal about it to the extreme in some cases, which is good for them and doesn't matter much to me, but seeing it blasted all over the internet is what has made a lot of fans of the fluff stop caring about the conversation. It seems to me like less and less people are interested in GW's publicized backstories and look, now GW is updating rulebooks more frequently and BL is slipping in quality, content, and physical releases.

22 years ago when I got into this hobby there was no fluff to this extent, no Black Library, Horus Heresy series, none of that stuff. There was some great fan fiction and some terrible stuff, but I knew some key events and my imagination did the rest. Now I know a -ton- more about the background of the game and I like it even more. Sure some of the stories were written seemingly by some of those terrible authors of the internet I read as a child, but it's easy knowing the details to think of the story in a way that makes me happy. No more comparisons of how large a Space Marine is compared to a human or how the Primarch's were twice the size again, no repeated comments about how fast and quiet Marines are despite their size. It's really the exact same story, but now that there's 'sanctioned' additions my imagination has even more to work with.

Bad authors can't take that away from me.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The fact that you like this fluff is obvious. However, asking other to see the "light" side is a bit pretentious as it concludes it's something everyone should see as positive.


Pretentious? It was my opinion and a suggestion. :laugh: 



hailene said:


> I think it's sorta like stepping up to my "adult" fluff-hood from my adolescence. Where being "right" all the time takes the backseat to being happy, ya know?


Exactly.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I genuinely, unironically like Draigo's fluff.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> I genuinely, unironically like Draigo's fluff.



So do I. It's quite possibly the most hopeless situation any poor bastard could find themselves in.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

never really cared for the fluff aspect, but then again when i started the fluff wasnt important and was very minimal, but that was rogue trader era, i quite enjoyed reading deathwing novel as it gave a reason for the colour change from black to bone which was interesting,the story of the craftworld eldar and the fall were again interesting but they were just something to pad out an issue of WD or in the years to come a Codex, but personally i would prefer photos of painted minis, colour schemes and photos of battles and skip the fluff apart from a little explination of what the model/codex entry is. 

I think too many chaps take it a little too seriously and spend too much time on it, time they could be painting or playing or converting minis with parts purchased from me :so_happy:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> I think too many chaps take it a little too seriously and spend too much time on it, time they could be painting or playing or converting minis with parts purchased from me


Pff. This part of the hobby is free. :wink:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Pff. This part of the hobby is free. :wink:


what is it with wargamers and spending money? oil and water or bus drivers and people :grin:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> what is it with wargamers and spending money?


Maybe there are some slightly better things to spend it on?


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

I am still very engaged with the fluff, I love it, but I only partake in the parts relating to the factions I like, and most specifically, the characters. I like Lysandar a lot, so I'm reading Mallodrax, etc. 

This thread is kind of confusing.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I find it interesting that we have comments that the "Grimdark" died when Necrons and Tau were introduced, when for me it would be the complete opposite - 3rd Edition is the edition where the model range finally started catching up to the Grimdarkness of the fluff. Go back and look at 2nd Ed Orks. 2nd Ed Chaos. Some of the Guard. They look *ridiculous* to the point of comical. When Orks became BRUTAL in body and weaponry and Chaos lost their stupid obsession with circular horns... that's when we started getting Grimdark in spades.

Now the art and the fluff has always been in that place, but the models really didn't reflect it for a long time, imo.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Never really stopped caring about the universe, just the big picture. 40k from an individual or group perspective is still incredibly cool because events mean something at that level and stories can either progress or end depending on the results of those events. 40k from the larger, galaxy spanning perpective is a god awful unchanging cluster-fuck in which individual events have no meaning because, ultimately, Gilligan is never getting off the island. So I suppose I stopped caring about 40k as a whole when I finally got fed up with that knowledge and decided that I didn't care about the island, the ocean or whether or not Gilligan and friends would ever be rescued and instead decided to focused my attention on Mary Ann's ass. Because sometimes the beauty is in the little things.


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