# Would it be a good idea for a primarch/primarchs to return?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

do you guys thing it would actually be a good idea for a primarch/primarchs to return...that is, would it be a good idea to advance the fluff in this manner? would it be a breath of fresh air, or would it result in the fluff becoming not grimdark enough?

would you be excited to read BL novels featuring returned primarchs? Which loyalist primarch would you prefer to come back (not necessarily the best primarch for the Imperium, but the best to be incorporated into BL 40k novels)?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I would like to see a loyalist primarch return, but in keeping with 40k grimdark, have the negative consequences that would surely come with the return of one of the Emperors sons. I think a primarch could be worked back into the fluff, but it would represent a massive problem for the tabletop side of 40k, and that is why i think they will never do it.


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## gharbad (Mar 12, 2011)

It would be fun yes, the current setting feels a bit static but i guess thats kinda the point.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

This single action would throw the Imperium into some serious conflicts. The Emperor's Sons know that he wouldn't want to be worshipped as a God and would perfer a secular goverment. If one returned he would essentially be able to control the Imperium and move it back towards the path of the Emperor. The hyper religiouosity demonstrated through out the current Imperium of man would be damaged which could cause another civil war if the Church refused to recognize his authority and the SPace Marines sided with him. It would be very interesting.

Doc


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

No. The Primarchs are venerated as angels, the sons of the Emperor and if one of them returned he would undoubtedly be given control over the Imperium as the new Lord Commander as Guilliman was after the Heresy until he died. If that happened they would be in a position to change everything, remove the Ecclesiarchy, lessen the power of the Inquisition and reform the Astartes into Legions to better fight the xenos, mutants and traitors that assail the Imperium. This would give 40k hope again, and that can't happen as it would be anathema to the backdrop of 40k, the absence of hope and the possibility that there will not be a future.

The Primarchs should stick to the Heresy series. And we know that when the end of days comes, Leman Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Lion El'Jonson, Jaghatai Khan and Roboute Guilliman shall return and lead the Imperium in its final stand against the darkness, either to victory or death.


Lord of the Night


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You really think that the High Lords and Inquisition would just allow a Primarch to take back over? I seriously doubt it. It could easily result in a civil war, either way i would like to see it, if not just to change the stagnant 40k. Hell do a seperate book series on it that isn't set in the current timeline, i think it would be incredibaly interesting to see how the Imperium would react to a Primarch returning. They certainly wouldn't be given immediate control, of that i am sure.


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## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

I don't even think it was a good idea to do the Horus Heresy series.

It makes that era lose all its mystique and ambiguity, and to be honest although some of it are okay reads, I've not seen any compelling plotlines.

After the Horus Heresy is done with what other mysteries will there be in the 40k universe?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

If GW went out of business, but somehow BL was found to still be profitable, I would love to see the story continue forward.

If that meant the return of some Primarchs, I'm all for it.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> No. The Primarchs are venerated as angels, the sons of the Emperor and if one of them returned he would undoubtedly be given control over the Imperium as the new Lord Commander...
> 
> Lord of the Night


Men are selfish though...

Despite a regular exposure to religious doctrine in their daily lives, a whole host cybernetic implants and much more, men are selfish creatures, yeah. From worker to Inquisitor, a man always seeks power. Sometimes this is a power it to destroy something, enslave others or unite. An Inquisitor or High Lord who believes he is a cog in a machine that is working for the greater good won't relinquish power to anyone - especially a Primarch who will be regarded as tainted by chaos

Hell, a Primarch probably couldn't even unite all of his Astartes. Many Chapters that have grown distant from their founding Legion probably wouldn't kneel to their Primarch - leading to a bloody and highly-charged chapter war. I'm thinking the chapters sired by Sanguinius on this



Lord of the Night said:


> The Primarchs should stick to the Heresy series. And we know that when the end of days comes, Leman Russ, Vulkan, Corax, Lion El'Jonson, Jaghatai Khan and Roboute Guilliman shall return and lead the Imperium in its final stand against the darkness, either to victory or death.
> 
> 
> Lord of the Night


Regardless, what you say is more of a fangirl catechism than a reasoned argument...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Guilliman certainly won't be returning for any battles. He's dead, haven't you heard?


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I am all for bringing back the Primarchs that are able to, majority of all the chaos Primarchs are alive and kicking doing whatever it is they're doing. But 40K time line is stuck it is as stagnant as the universe it has created, now don't get me wrong I love the story and have no major complaints about it, I just want to know that one day once we tell all the stories and shine the lights under every rock that something will happen... have a Primarch come back, he can get eaten by a Tyranid or something but make something happen one day


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Not sure if the 40k universe... meaning us the readers, are quite ready for the return of the primarchs just yet. I think it would be too sudden when there is so much to write about still. That said, I don't see any reason why we can't cross paths with a primarch like say... Russ. He's out there after all, so why not a guest appearance every so often? 

If one ever did return, the last thing I would want is a book written with a primarch as a main character. One thing I have learned from the HH series is that 40k authors haven't quite mastered how to feature a primarch without making them out to be a bunch of whiny bitches instead of venerated leaders.

Just my two cents...


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Guilliman certainly won't be returning for any battles. He's dead, haven't you heard?


Pilgrims say that the wound on his neck is healing...slowly...even in the stasis field.

:drinks:

Doc


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

docgeo said:


> Pilgrims say that the wound on his neck is healing...slowly...even in the stasis field.
> 
> :drinks:
> 
> Doc


THEY ARE FOOLS! :ireful2:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, pilgrims. Denizens of Ultramar and citizens of the highly superstitious Imperium, none of which can even begin to understand the technologies keeping Guilliman in his current corpse state, or even begin to understand what has happened to Guilliman. It's fantasy and wishful thinking, an appealing thought to the masses and one that gives them hope, false hope and a lie, but hope none the less.

Guilliman however is very much dead. The poison flooding through his system is less than a heartbeat away from totally killing off his crippled body. He is even described as a corpse now in the latest fluff. Sorry to any Ultramarine fans, but Guilliman will never be returning.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, pilgrims. Denizens of Ultramar and citizens of the highly superstitious Imperium, none of which can even begin to understand the technologies keeping Guilliman in his current corpse state, or even begin to understand what has happened to Guilliman. It's fantasy and wishful thinking, an appealing thought to the masses and one that gives them hope, false hope and a lie, but hope none the less.
> 
> Guilliman however is very much dead. The poison flooding through his system is less than a heartbeat away from totally killing off his crippled body. He is even described as a corpse now in the latest fluff. Sorry to any Ultramarine fans, but Guilliman will never be returning.



If there is one thing that would make me think that Guilliman might return, it would be a post like this that gets picked up by some rascally author who decides to write a book titled The Return, about the UltraMarine Primarch re-awakening :laugh:


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

I want the missing Primarchs to return so we could get the 40k universe storyline moving FORWARD. Imagine all the stories they could draw from such events, eh?


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Maybe have chaos finally break through cadia and then have a loyal primarch swoop in out of no where and help fend them off, only to then disappear again? That would be pretty cool


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

They don't need to incorporate the Primarchs into mainstream GW gaming, Forge World could do a Heresy Imperial Armour Book and model all the Primarchs, create rules for them, etc. Essentially pleasing everyone. They couldn't be used in tournaments (unless the rule regarding IA is changed, which has been mooted by GW) but we could still use them in friendly games. 

I'll be surprised if this isn't on the cards. With all the Heresy era minis coming out, maybe they'll do a tie in with the final couple of HH novels?

PS - Russ better be coming back... FOR THE WOLFTIME!!!


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, pilgrims. Denizens of Ultramar and citizens of the highly superstitious Imperium, none of which can even begin to understand the technologies keeping Guilliman in his current corpse state, or even begin to understand what has happened to Guilliman. It's fantasy and wishful thinking, an appealing thought to the masses and one that gives them hope, false hope and a lie, but hope none the less.
> 
> Guilliman however is very much dead. The poison flooding through his system is less than a heartbeat away from totally killing off his crippled body. He is even described as a corpse now in the latest fluff. Sorry to any Ultramarine fans, but Guilliman will never be returning.


Brothers of ULTRMAR,

I have seen the proof with my own eyes! Lord Guilliman will return and the Magos Bioloical have been working on a cure to the poison so fear not!
:gimmefive:
Doc


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

I would say it would be good or bad depending on WHICH primarch returned to the imperium.

Fluff wise both Corax(May be Vulkan instead of Corax) and Russ are said to only return for the final battle against chaos that will decide the fate of humanity. So those two coming back could potentially screw over the imperium.

The return of Lion, in fluff, is stated that when he returns he will lead the imperium in a crusade that is far greater than the Great Crusade of the emperor. So potential epicness for the imperium.

Jhagatai Khan's return im not really sure about i think he would mainly just go to war against one of the races and lead his chapter.

Vulkan's return would most likely be very good for the imperium as he did and still does care about the common civilian, as shown by the Salamanders.

Guillimans return, depends entirely on the theory of his wound healing while being in stasis, but if that theory is correct then papa-smurf will likely be stuck back on the High Lords of Terra like he used to be before Fulgrim stabbed him.

Ferrus Manus im not going into as there are rumors that he is actually on mars but thats for a different thread altogether.

Now seeing as you said Primarch/Primarchs would that also include the Daemon Primarchs: Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus, Peruturbo, Angron, Lorgar?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> You really think that the High Lords and Inquisition would just allow a Primarch to take back over? I seriously doubt it. It could easily result in a civil war, either way i would like to see it, if not just to change the stagnant 40k. Hell do a seperate book series on it that isn't set in the current timeline, i think it would be incredibaly interesting to see how the Imperium would react to a Primarch returning. They certainly wouldn't be given immediate control, of that i am sure.


Some would be unwilling but the Imperium does venerate the Primarchs nearly as much as the Emperor. They would be very quick to place whichever Primarch returned into a position of power, sure that with a son of the Emperor leading them they would be able to return humanity to greatness. The Inquisition would be suspicious of course but it wouldn't be hard to be certain that a Primarch had returned, and once they were I think they would want him leading them, so that the Imperium would be able to regain its Golden Age.




bobss said:


> Men are selfish though...
> 
> Despite a regular exposure to religious doctrine in their daily lives, a whole host cybernetic implants and much more, men are selfish creatures, yeah. From worker to Inquisitor, a man always seeks power. Sometimes this is a power it to destroy something, enslave others or unite. An Inquisitor or High Lord who believes he is a cog in a machine that is working for the greater good won't relinquish power to anyone - especially a Primarch who will be regarded as tainted by chaos
> 
> ...


True enough but a real Primarch is something that all would recognize instinctively, some can be fooled but there are those who can't be. If a Primarch returned likely his chapters would be called upon to identify him beyond a doubt, and I doubt the likes of Dante, Marneus Calgar, Azrael and Logan Grimnar could be fooled by a fraudulent Primarch.

That would depend on the Primarch and chapter though. If Guilliman returned then every single Ultramarine descendant would line up to rejoin him, the only two exceptions I can think of would be the Mortifactors and Fire Angels, these two might not but they could return.

If Russ or Vulkan returned then for them its not a matter of appealing to hundreds of chapters, their legions never created any successors. They would only need to take up the leadership of their chapters and that would be that.

If it were the Khan or Corax they would need to gather a few chapters and convince them, but their original legions would remain loyal without question.

As for the rest they are dead. Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and Rogal Dorn are dead. Their corpses were seen and confirmed by many, they aren't coming back, unless somehow they return from the dead but I doubt that will happen.




Angel of Blood said:


> Guilliman certainly won't be returning for any battles. He's dead, haven't you heard?
> 
> Indeed, pilgrims. Denizens of Ultramar and citizens of the highly superstitious Imperium, none of which can even begin to understand the technologies keeping Guilliman in his current corpse state, or even begin to understand what has happened to Guilliman. It's fantasy and wishful thinking, an appealing thought to the masses and one that gives them hope, false hope and a lie, but hope none the less.
> 
> Guilliman however is very much dead. The poison flooding through his system is less than a heartbeat away from totally killing off his crippled body. He is even described as a corpse now in the latest fluff. Sorry to any Ultramarine fans, but Guilliman will never be returning.


One thing you must always remember in any fiction series. Whenever a character dies you must remember, unless you see the corpse and someone identifies it as that character, never assume they are dead.

If Guilliman were dead then the lorewriters would have just had Fulgrim tear his head off and bisect his corpse. But rather then that they had him poisoned and on the cusp of death, and now he is in stasis and rumoured to be healing. Some claim thats impossible but how do you know that? The full powers of a Primarch have never been disclosed, Guilliman could very well be healing in that stasis field. Sanguinius was crippled and maimed at Signus and he still healed afterwards. The stasis field could be keeping Guilliman alive long enough for his healing to destroy the poison Fulgrim wounded him with and to heal his torn throat.


Lord of the Night


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Some would be unwilling but the Imperium does venerate the Primarchs nearly as much as the Emperor. They would be very quick to place whichever Primarch returned into a position of power, sure that with a son of the Emperor leading them they would be able to return humanity to greatness.


My view:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Or just as likely be a cause for further civil strife. The Imperium has devolved into a body of paranoia, obsession, fear and hypocrisy. To such an extent that the return of these mythical Primarchs would be met with fear, rather than jubilation. Especially if they return with the intention of reforming the ten thousand year old institutions and seizing power for themselves.


But to expand on that, just look at the Age of Apostasy, the second most devastating civil war in Imperial history essentially occured because of a power struggle. The return of a Primarch bent on assuming a position of power would similarly cause a massive power struggle.

Its not a matter of how much influence a Primarch could potentially wield throughout the Imperium (being a son of the Emperor). Simply because as it stands, the High Lords, Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy maintain *absolute* power and influence in the Imperium. If they opposed the return of a Primarch (which they probably would considering they generally wish to maintain the status quo and their own power) then they could quite easily portray the Primarch as a heretic (legitimately considering the Primarch probably would not support the Imperial Cult), or as a daemonic trickster. The wider Imperium would react with fear, or however the High Lords/Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy told them to react.



Lord of the Night said:


> The Inquisition would be suspicious of course but it wouldn't be hard to be certain that a Primarch had returned, and once they were I think they would want him leading them, so that the Imperium would be able to regain its Golden Age.


Several of the remaining loyal Primarchs (assuming they are still alive) have spent vast amounts of time in the Eye of Terror. Just look at the reaction the 13th Great Company recieved when they emerged from the Eye of Terror, near open-hostility from Imperial forces. The Inquisition would be more than suspicious, they would (quite rightly) question how an individual (even a Primarch) could spend a vast amount of time in the presence of Chaos and not be corrupted. The Primarchs are relics from an ancient age, a time of legends and heroes. They disappeared because they didn't belong in the Imperium Secundus.

And it wouldn't just be the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy would probably react with greater suspicion and hostility. A returning Primarch probably would not submit to the Imperial Cult, and thus would automatically be labelled a heretic. And who would the fanatical worshippers of the wider Imperium listen to; the preachers who they have listened to their entire life and who they utterly believe interpret the will of the Emperor, or a random individual that has returned claiming to be one of the Emperor's sons but who has also denounced the Emperor as a god and who has the intention of reforming the Imperium against it's will. You also have to take into account that even if a Primarch did return, the vast majority of Imperial citizens would never personally see the Primarch, or witness what he would do. They would easily be kept in line by the absolute power of the Inquisition/High Lords/Ecclesiarchy, and therefore would oppose the Primarch.

The Adeptus Astartes however is a different matter. They have always maintained an individuality from the remainder of the Imperium. A returning Primarch would likely find most of his influence within this organisation, but even then this would only compound fears of another Astartes uprising. 

The Primarchs do not belong in the Imperium of M41, their time has long since passed.



Lord of the Night said:


> True enough but a real Primarch is something that all would recognize instinctively, some can be fooled but there are those who can't be. If a Primarch returned likely his chapters would be called upon to identify him beyond a doubt, and I doubt the likes of Dante, Marneus Calgar, Azrael and Logan Grimnar could be fooled by a fraudulent Primarch.


Why not? None of those Astartes were alive prior to the disappearance of the Primarchs. None of them has ever met a Primarch or truly know what they are capable of, their personalities or what they were like. They may well just believe it was a daemonic impersonator or freudulent individual. 



Lord of the Night said:


> If Guilliman were dead then the lorewriters would have just had Fulgrim tear his head off and bisect his corpse. But rather then that they had him poisoned and on the cusp of death, and now he is in stasis and rumoured to be healing.


Another plot device to represent false hope. Just like the whole concept of the disappeared loyalist Primarchs, just because we never heard they were explicity killed doesn't mean their not all dead (although yeah, it doesn't mean they are all dead either). Its one of those things GW does to keep certain plot lines open-ended, not much in 40k is conclusive after all. I think this is more the reasoning behind it, rather than them subtly implying they are still alive.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Re-reading the fluff in the rule book reminded me that we are within the "End Times" now. I think the 40k universe is heading towards a time when the Primarchs return, both loyal and traitor, it's a perfect way to inject a new twist into the game. Maybe GW will wait till the HH series has run it's course before they let this fully evolve, maybe 7th edition?

On a related note, I am hoping GW do something with the Macharian Crusade at some point as this is an equally rich fluff source.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But to expand on that, just look at the Age of Apostasy, the second most devastating civil war in Imperial history essentially occured because of a power struggle. The return of a Primarch bent on assuming a position of power would similarly cause a massive power struggle.
> 
> Its not a matter of how much influence a Primarch could potentially wield throughout the Imperium (being a son of the Emperor). Simply because as it stands, the High Lords, Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy maintain *absolute* power and influence in the Imperium. If they opposed the return of a Primarch (which they probably would considering they generally wish to maintain the status quo and their own power) then they could quite easily portray the Primarch as a heretic (legitimately considering the Primarch probably would not support the Imperial Cult), or as a daemonic trickster. The wider Imperium would react with fear, or however the High Lords/Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy told them to react.
> 
> And it wouldn't just be the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy would probably react with greater suspicion and hostility. A returning Primarch probably would not submit to the Imperial Cult, and thus would automatically be labelled a heretic. And who would the fanatical worshippers of the wider Imperium listen to; the preachers who they have listened to their entire life and who they utterly believe interpret the will of the Emperor, or a random individual that has returned claiming to be one of the Emperor's sons but who has also denounced the Emperor as a god and who has the intention of reforming the Imperium against it's will. You also have to take into account that even if a Primarch did return, the vast majority of Imperial citizens would never personally see the Primarch, or witness what he would do. They would easily be kept in line by the absolute power of the Inquisition/High Lords/Ecclesiarchy, and therefore would oppose the Primarch.


You are right on that. A power struggle would be inevitable however I disagree on the opposition. The mythology and legends built around the Primarchs have made them become more than men, which is true but they are capable of errors as the Horus Heresy series has taught us, but the Imperium of the 41st millennium believes that the loyalist Primarchs are beyond human, and incapable of error. They could believe that whatever the Primarch does is in the best interest of the Imperium, especially if it was Guilliman who returned, and most would accept the changes as they would believe the Primarch was right, even if they disagreed.

But if a Primarch were to return and play the god angle... then in theory he could run the entire Imperium without issue. Merely accept that the Imperial Cult is something that cannot be gotten rid of and go along with what it believes and the Primarch would face no opposition in his rule. In theory it could be similar to Sebastian Thor's Confederation of Light. A Primarch would be such an inspiring being, command such awe that people who do see him would flock to his banner, they will believe what they see over what they are told any day, even if its not real. And the Primarchs usually always led from the front, so millions would see a returned Primarch as he made his way through the Imperium, his power would only grow and grow.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Several of the remaining loyal Primarchs (assuming they are still alive) have spent vast amounts of time in the Eye of Terror. Just look at the reaction the 13th Great Company recieved when they emerged from the Eye of Terror, near open-hostility from Imperial forces. The Inquisition would be more than suspicious, they would (quite rightly) question how an individual (even a Primarch) could spend a vast amount of time in the presence of Chaos and not be corrupted. The Primarchs are relics from an ancient age, a time of legends and heroes. They disappeared because they didn't belong in the Imperium Secundus.


I don't know anything about the reaction to the 13th Great Company so i'll take your word on that. But not all the Primarchs went to the Warp, Jaghatai Khan and Guilliman didn't, and we have no idea where Leman Russ or Vulkan went. They would have an easier time of returning. But you are right, spending that much time in the Warp would warrant heavy suspicion.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Adeptus Astartes however is a different matter. They have always maintained an individuality from the remainder of the Imperium. A returning Primarch would likely find most of his influence within this organisation, but even then this would only compound fears of another Astartes uprising.
> 
> The Primarchs do not belong in the Imperium of M41, their time has long since passed.


That is true. The Traitor Primarchs proved that a Primarch can go bad, therefore a Primarch at the head of a new legion would be a troublesome prospect for the Imperium, even a loyal Primarch could cause fear just for the notion that he could go bad.

I agree with you. I am arguing how a Primarch could return but I don't think they should. They are a symbol of hope, of a golden age that died long ago. They have no place in 40k, only the twisted memories that the Imperium preaches can work in 40k without damaging the very core of the universe, the decay of humanity. The Primarchs are the direct opposite, the future of humanity, and thus they had to die or disappear or be taken out of the picture. I do think they will return for the end of days, but we can't tell when that will be in 40k, so the Imperium is on its own, for now.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why not? None of those Astartes were alive prior to the disappearance of the Primarchs. None of them has ever met a Primarch or truly know what they are capable of, their personalities or what they were like. They may well just believe it was a daemonic impersonator or freudulent individual.


They may not have known them but they are old enough and wise enough to be able to tell a fraudulent human from their ancient liege lords. As for the Daemonic possibility there is a chance they could be fooled, but Mephiston wasn't fooled by Arkio when Mallafax altered him and most Chapters have a Chief Librarian, they would be of immense help in identifying a true Primarch.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Another plot device to represent false hope. Just like the whole concept of the disappeared loyalist Primarchs, just because we never heard they were explicity killed doesn't mean their not all dead (although yeah, it doesn't mean they are all dead either). Its one of those things GW does to keep certain plot lines open-ended, not much in 40k is conclusive after all. I think this is more the reasoning behind it, rather than them subtly implying they are still alive.


I didn't mean it like that. I know that the reasons for Guilliman's possible survival aren't for the sake of his life, its to create the very possibility, to create hope. But people deny that Guilliman is healing thus creating false hope, each side makes good points, (Guilliman is a Primarch so in theory he could be healing, or the stasis field makes it impossible even for him), but I was just saying that we shouldn't be too quick to write Guilliman off as dead, there is the chance of his return. But thats for the end of days, not 40k, (weird line considering what 40k is like).


Lord of the Night


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

If I remember correctly all they found of Dorn was his hand. So he could still be alive and awaiting the right time to return. As far as the Chaos legions there are to possible option. First, Fulgrim could somehow defeat or be assisted in defeating the demon that possessed him. Second, the Alpha Legion's second Primarch. They don't appear to have been disloyal to the spirit of the Emperor when they joined with Horus according to their HH book.


Doc


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

docgeo said:


> If I remember correctly all they found of Dorn was his hand. So he could still be alive and awaiting the right time to return. As far as the Chaos legions there are to possible option. First, Fulgrim could somehow defeat or be assisted in defeating the demon that possessed him. Second, the Alpha Legion's second Primarch. They don't appear to have been disloyal to the spirit of the Emperor when they joined with Horus according to their HH book.
> 
> 
> Doc


No only Dorn's hand was separated from his body. Dorn's skeleton was frozen in amber and is on board the Phalanx. The hand was just separated and each Imperial Fists Chapter Master inscribes his name onto it. But Dorn did die, many of his Astartes witnessed it and carried his corpse back to the Phalanx.


Lord of the Night


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Thanks Lord Of Night for that clarification. I am sitting here in Iraq and most of my books are Back in the USA.

In terms Of Guillian he is likely the best choice to come back and successfully bring the Imperium back from the grave. As has been stated before he would likely be able to unite a LEGION worth of Marines. In this universe might makes right. The only other thing that would work would be more than one returning together and supporting each other. I am not saying this would be good or bad...but it would be a change.

Doc


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

On CoTE note about none of the Space Marines being alive to remember what the primarchs look liked or what they are like, may i point out one person who is a dreadnought: Bjor the Fel-Handed. He was the first great wolf and fought along side Leman Russ, and he is still alive(to an extent).

For the High Lords, Inquisitor and Imperial Cult( i cant spell their proper name) the return of a primarch would be bad for them UNLESS the primarch just sticks to leading his chapter. Im sure they would tolerate that.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yes it would be a good idea and the best one to bring back in my mind would be the lion. he allows wanted to be warmaster but never got the chance and the dark setting of 40k would test him to his limits and actually let us see what he really is made of. 

obviously the troubles of some of the DA being disloyal and the fact how would he explain where he has been for 10k years would really cause problems for himself but really with all the enemies that the imperium comes across now more than ever they need a being like a primarch to come back and help not try and restore the imperium to GC time but just to try and give humanity that extra edge.

id expect the high lords to actually appreciate the help of a primarch and not try and denign them their birthright. hell who said one of the primarchs would want to try and rule the imperium, they would probably just try and help with military stuff and seeing as they are only one being couldnt be expected to be everywhere at once. but the reappearance of a primarch would have such a impact on humanity as to inspire them to great feats even if they not present at that battle. just the idea of one returning could be the thing to add something to the lore without having them involved in certain battles and changing things in a way that it would make the imperials seem overpowered.

hell 40k needs something added to it but thinking that one primarch returning is gonna change the whole galaxy in the blink of an eye and gonna change the whole setting too is crazy. having one return would just stoke peoples interest and that good for the IP and everyone i think.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I would like it, as it would finally show some progression rather than the standard static setting we have at the moment. The Horus Heresy is popular partly because people love the Primarchs and want to learn more about them etc, imagine throwing a Primarch into the 40k setting it would reawaken the dormant lore it currently has, lore that revolves around thousands of stories but none of them really having an impact on a galactic scale.

P.S - The Lore on Dorn is very outdated, tons lore from the old Astartes articles have been proven wrong, incorrect and revised. So I wouldn't really hold it to be proof of much since it is so brief in it's description of events anything can be drawn from it. In relation to Dorn himself, it's already obviously they are retconning him a bit as he's no longer the man of stone we thought him to be, but instead he's actually the most human of all the Primarchs we've learnt of so far imo.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Bringing Leman Russ back would be great, because one of the things he do (among the countless) would be to check in on the Lion, thus making tons of Dark Angels fans happy.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring one of the "big four"*** as I call them would be a good idea due to the fact they are so influential to players that it would be almost favouritism to bring any of them back. 

I think a better choice would be the Khan, Corax or Vulkan, they are all fairly special but not really "big" names if you get what I mean.


***Dorn because of Black Templars, Russ because of Space Wolves, The Lion cause of Dark Angels and Roboute cause of Ultrmarines.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yes it would be amazing. The primarch's return would be awesome to do. It would be amazing if they did an 'end times' series where some did return. 

The imperium would have a strong leader again to unite it, or it would shatter under civil war. However a primarch wouldn't try to stop the emperor being worshipped, they would probably recognise that it would cause civil war. The Primarch would also try and rebuild legions as well. Even if it was RG, who said the codex astartes wasn't supposed to be adhered to dogmatically. Chances are ALL loyalist Astartes would Unite under the primarchs banner. And chaos would have a real fight on its hands. The Deamon Primarchs might get involved. This would be awesome.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, pilgrims. Denizens of Ultramar and citizens of the highly superstitious Imperium, none of which can even begin to understand the technologies keeping Guilliman in his current corpse state, or even begin to understand what has happened to Guilliman. It's fantasy and wishful thinking, an appealing thought to the masses and one that gives them hope, false hope and a lie, but hope none the less.
> 
> Guilliman however is very much dead. The poison flooding through his system is less than a heartbeat away from totally killing off his crippled body. He is even described as a corpse now in the latest fluff. Sorry to any Ultramarine fans, but Guilliman will never be returning.


well, almost anything can happen in 40k...not saying Guilliman has a big chance of returning, but if one day GW gives the green light, a writer would have enough wiggle room to revive him. 

he's on the brink of death frozen in stasis, "rumoured to be healing", it's not totally inconceivable for him to come back. GW managed to preserve enough ambiguity in Guilliman's case. 

Whereas bringing Manus, Dorn, or Sanguinius back would be totally ridiculous.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Unknown Primarch said:


> id expect the high lords to actually appreciate the help of a primarch and not try and denign them their birthright. hell who said one of the primarchs would want to try and rule the imperium, they would probably just try and help with military stuff and seeing as they are only one being couldnt be expected to be everywhere at once. but the reappearance of a primarch would have such a impact on humanity as to inspire them to great feats even if they not present at that battle. just the idea of one returning could be the thing to add something to the lore without having them involved in certain battles and changing things in a way that it would make the imperials seem overpowered.


They might appreciate the help if the primarch decided to be submissive to the authority of the High Lords of Terra. I doubt any primarch would. One thing we know for sure is that while there are great men and women of the imperium intent on maintaining the greatness of the imperium, too many of the ruling class are more interested in their own relative power. A primarch would threaten that. Regardless, if the authors could master the ability to competently write about a primarch, it would make for some interesting/fun reading...


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i dont see how the high lords would find the return a problem to be honest, it not like the primarch would dissolve the council. a primarch isnt a politician and would be more interested to guiding military operations than anything. but to denign a prince of the imperium to chance to rule in the emperors steed would be crazy, who better than a primarch to be able to interprate the emperors will. 
id say a primarch would take one look at the imperium, see how while flawed its been held together by worship of Him and would roll with it and maybe use that as a weapon to get people into action against mankinds enemies. 
times change and to expect a primarch to think things should go back to crusade era ways would be a insult to that primarchs intellligence. things are working ok to keep mankind working in one direction, why change that.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

So I'm thinking pretty much the most realistic primarch to be broughtback would be the Lion, we know he is alive and sleeping under the fortress-monastary (which why haven't they found him?Are they even exploring down there?) but that would be awesome having the re-united Lion/Luther team taking on the galaxy again


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think the Lion is to big to return imo, it would also rob the Dark Angels of some of their mystery if all of a sudden he pops up and outs one of their most important secrets.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

IMHO...I think corax or Vulkan would be the best to return. To really shake things up I feel Omegon returning with Alpha Legion would be a huge infussion to the story line. Most of the fluff I have read suggests that most work outside to Eye of terror and so likely aren't coruppted by the warp. Additionally after the HH book on them they only turned to apparently ensure the Emperor's grand design succeeded. Imagine they realize that they were fooled and Omegon returning with 30k to 40k loyal and untainted Marines. It would have to be carefully crafted and involve possible hidden alliances with the Grey Knights...but it could really ROCK!!

Doc


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

If Omegon was to return I think you'd find he was allready out and never left. I'd like to imagine that he is running things, in secret, and nobody knows he is a primarch because nobody has seen him.

He runs the High lords of Terra, and/or the Inquisition or even both! :yahoo:

If any of them return it would be pretty awesome if handled correctly and I think they would only return if it meant a new direction for GW. A way to inject new and bigger things into their allready massive catalogue.

I am sure they need to do something like that other than just a new version of the same game. Or changing from plastic to lead to white metal back to plastic and now to some unknown form of material..perhaps liquid plasma taht comes ready painted heh

Personally I'd like to see Rob cured and back in action and most definetly Russ :yahoo:


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## darkbubba (Apr 20, 2011)

I think that having a primarch or primarchs come back would be pretty cool. While I appreciate the mystery of the question "where did he go?" I would really like to see a few of my questions answered like what the heck happened to Vulkan, where did he hide those relics and what's up with Lion still sleeping? I think a return of a primarch would lend some fresh breath and drama to the 40k series.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

It would most defiantly be an awesome series. They could do an 'end times' series one day.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

TooNu said:


> If Omegon was to return I think you'd find he was allready out and never left. I'd like to imagine that he is running things, in secret, and nobody knows he is a primarch because nobody has seen him.
> 
> He runs the High lords of Terra, and/or the Inquisition or even both! :yahoo:
> 
> ...


The Return of Omegon with a majority of Alpha Legion would be a huge boon to the 40K timeline. It would allow for all kinds to changes in 6th ED to transpire. 1st a loyalist Alpha Legion codex and models. 2nd a range of cabal miniatures as some of their antagonsists. The story line would allow for huge problems and changes within the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes.

It would be Glorius!!!!

DOC


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think if they returned they'd be exterminated asap.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

That is a possibility but they would likely have had time to plan out their return and all the possible outcomes...except for Guilliman and the Lion because they would just wake up. They would likely consolidate there chapter or chapters strength and then return. Even if they were ultimately killed again they would be around just long enough to critically change the dynamics of the Imperium for the better.

IMO,

Doc


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

No, it would not be a good idea for the primarchs to really return.

One could even argue that the IDEA that in the darkest hours of mankind, Guilliman might rise and change the tide of war is even romantic.

Never ever understand the power of hope. That is why pilgrims need to and want to believe that his wound is healing.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

Yes.

The thing is, a Primarch need not change the grimdarkness of 40K. Humanity's situation is getting ever worse, and besides some will proclaim the demigod a heretic, or an impostor, or both.

Point being, the addition of a Primarch will not ressurect the Golden Age or even necessarily improve the situation (think civil war, as mentioned before).

Now, I understand that the status quo shouldn't change much, but really it's just annoying to have those plot devices out there, ready to be used, but unused.

I think the issue here is not BL, though. I think the issue is that GW doesn't want to risk any change in the setting, even a relatively insignificant one. IF BL somehow manages to get permission to do such a series, though, it will start once the HH series is done.


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## Stern Guard (May 29, 2011)

Im new to 40k and i know only the basics about the horus heresy currently reading rynns world but in a couple of days time i will probably start horus rising (im really looking forward to it), but can someone tell me how rogal dorn died? with him being primarch of the imperial fists, crimson fists and black templars i think i should know a bit more about him but i dont. Im just starting with crimson fists by the way.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Stern Guard said:


> Im new to 40k and i know only the basics about the horus heresy currently reading rynns world but in a couple of days time i will probably start horus rising (im really looking forward to it), but can someone tell me how rogal dorn died? with him being primarch of the imperial fists, crimson fists and black templars i think i should know a bit more about him but i dont. Im just starting with crimson fists by the way.


He died in a very rubbish way, the only info on him is from an out of date index astartes article which said he died taking a battleships bridge during a black crusade. It's most likely not going to be that though since those articles are well out of date and being retconned with each new horus heresy book.


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## Stern Guard (May 29, 2011)

Im sure they will give him a heroic death then eventually. How far into the HH books does dorn appear?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He's already appeared several times, the earliest being either Flight of the Eisenstein or if you have the audio/rare book The Lightning Tower and Dark King. He's not had a book devoted to him so far, however it's my guess he'll get one of the many Siege of the Emperor's Palace books.


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## ownzu (Jul 11, 2010)

i think i would want russ to come back leading 13th company


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## Kreelman (Jul 27, 2010)

Look what happens when a 'saint' supposedly appears (Sabbat Marter), would the imperium really want a or be able to cope with a live primarch/demigod. It would spin off a lot off good tales, but it would undermine the stability of the entire genre and potentially finish the entire premise of the book format.

Given that were talkinh countless generations raised to consider the emporer a god, it would simply repeat the HH tale all over again. Would be good, but would shorten the tale.

Still would like to see it one day, just not yet


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Saints can be ignored even by Terra but a Primarch returning would really make an impact.


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