# Thoughts on Smallest Legions



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It can be a bit confusing with all the different number of astartes legions going around. I was thinking maybe to create a thread on what people thought on the smallest legions and average sizes. Primarly on the smaller legions though, as their has been discussion already over the general sizes and the biggest sizes.

My top five thoughts of the smallest legions. (Largest to smallest) yes I included the others because I feel they would be brought up.

1. Ultramarines 250000
2. Word Bearers 100000
3-16. Average Legion 90,000-95,000
17. Raven Guard 80,000
18. Emperor's Children 60,000
19. Salamanders 50,000
20. Thousand Sons 14,000

I'm curious to what people think about my opinion on the Emperor's Children. My explanation is that Chemos became a striving world which could have helped Fulgrim's ranks with a baby booming world. Unlike the other smaller legion's home worlds, Fulgrims did swell with a better economy and population. My final theory also arouses from the fact that the Emperor's Children started to fight crusades all by themselves and without help from other legions. Also, the amount of astartes available to Horus during Istvaan was able to push the first wave of loyal forces back towards the traitor second wave despite all the purging they were doing within their ranks in the previous Istvaan world.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that it is said somewhere that the Wolves also weren't a particularly big legion. Plus, they didn't seem to outnumber the Sons that much during the Siege of Prospero. I'd probably put their numbers somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 marines. But like I said, my memory is rusty so I could be way off.

As for the Emperor's Children, I don't know how big they would be but I if they got their numbers up to over 50,000 that would have been quite impressive. I always figured them numbering somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000. Though, them fighting crusades on their own really isn't that much of a size indication as the Sons fought on their own with far smaller numbers.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that it is said somewhere that the Wolves also weren't a particularly big legion. Plus, they didn't seem to outnumber the Sons that much during the Siege of Prospero. I'd probably put their numbers somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 marines. But like I said, my memory is rusty so I could be way off.


I was thinking about the Wolves, but I thought it was only a few companies that were led by Russ on Prospero. I may be wrong though.



Chompy Bits said:


> As for the Emperor's Children, I don't know how big they would be but I if they got their numbers up to over 50,000 that would have been quite impressive. I always figured them numbering somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000. Though, them fighting crusades on their own really isn't that much of a size indication as the Sons fought on their own with far smaller numbers.


Well, the thing is I'm only going off by examples. It seemed that in _A Thousand Sons_, that they were continously getting help from other legions or at least fighting along side them. For example, the Iron Warriors and the Wolves. In _Fulgrim_, even though he meets with other primarchs, I think his legion is basically on its own.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

I think the Thousand Sons actually were not that small as when Ahriman remarks on how many survivors there are he staes that there are one thousand marines left 'One tenth of the legions former strength' so the Thousand Sons must have had around ten thousand.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

10 x 1000 = 10,000, not 100,00.
Just watch me have got that wrong!

GFP


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
See this is why I suck at maffs...derp


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I've always imagined the Emperor's Children as only being, at best, slightly larger than the Thousand Sons (who were 12,000 strong- 1,200 left after the Battle of Prospero _'one tenth of the Legion'_). 
Maybe 15,000 but definitely less than 20,000 in my opinion, Chemos became a thriving world under Fulgrim but even with his improvements it didn't change the fact that it was an industrial world that had a very small 'disposable' population- as in a population that could afford to be taken off-world for one reason or another without imperiling the processes in place for global survival.

I'd actually separate the Legions into 4 or 5 distinct groupings.

Ultramarines- 250,000
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Word Bearers-100,000
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Alpha Legion/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Death Guard/Imperial Fists/Iron Hands/Iron Warriors/Luna Wolves/Night Lords/Raven Guard/Space Wolves/White Scars/World Eaters- 70,000-90,000
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Salamanders- much higher than the Thousand Sons but lower than the 'Core 13' (30,000-50,000?)
---------------------
Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons- 12,000-15,000


I'd be hesitant at placing the core 13 in order of size as there's no evidence to suggest which Legions are bigger/smaller than the others.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Emperor's Children 60,000
> 
> I'm curious to what people think about my opinion on the Emperor's Children. My explanation is that Chemos became a striving world which could have helped Fulgrim's ranks with a baby booming world. Unlike the other smaller legion's home worlds, Fulgrims did swell with a better economy and population. My final theory also arouses from the fact that the Emperor's Children started to fight crusades all by themselves and without help from other legions. Also, the amount of astartes available to Horus during Istvaan was able to push the first wave of loyal forces back towards the traitor second wave despite all the purging they were doing within their ranks in the previous Istvaan world.


Im with the Baron on the Emperor's Children. In fact I think that _Fulgrim_ may have actually even referenced the Emperor's Children as being 10,000 strong, i'll have to check that though.

Ever since their inception and reunion with Fulgrim, the Emperor's Children put emphasis on quality at the expense of quantity. They wouldn't have merely recruited more Astartes from Chemos simply to increase their numbers, because they would have never reached the heights of quantity that the larger more established Legions maintained. And that would have been at odds with their philosophy of seeking perfection.

Yet despite their tiny numbers in comparison to other Legions, they were still one of the most potent combat forces in the Imperium (as demostrated by the Cleansing of Laeran) which only goes to show the achievements that Fulgrim achieved, and the sheer superiority of the Emperor's Children.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Im sure i've read the Space Wolves being quite small aswell in comparison. And the whole legions strength was sent to Prospero and whilst no figure is given in Thousand Sons it didn't seem like they outnumbered them all that much.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm not sure if the "entire" Wolves Legion was sent to Prospero. Especially the invasion of Prospero happened pretty quickly. I'm not sure if Russ was able to muster his entire force to destroy Prospero in time. Though considering the conditions on Fenris I could understand for its slow recruitment rate. However, many worlds like Baal aren't good for recruitment either but they don't suffer from low numbers. Also remember, there would have been a good amount of Terra born Wolves before Russ was found, so at worst perhaps he had the same number as Corax did. Plus, they didn't suffer an accident that the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons did to create such a large gap to the other legions. The idea that the Wolves maybe "really small," stems from the idea of the Wolves sending their entire force to Prospero. Which I don't believe happened. But I maybe wrong.

As for Fulgrim, the only reason I mentioned it was because of recently listening to _Raven's Flight_ and Corax saying how he wasn't able to gain the numbers for his legion like his other brothers were. 80,000 doesn't really seem like a low number if you compared it to the Word Bearer's Legion. My only guess is that maybe most legions were around 90,000 astartes with the Word Bearers leading most of the legions by at most a margin of ten thousand astartes.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I think I remember reading something about the Wolves being smaller as well, and I haven't read Prospero Burns. 

I think it may have been that they only had one successor chapter, number 1000 (maybe?). I know the wolves still ahve more than 1000. but I doubt they have more than 6000 (or more than the Black templars at any rate). A lot of Wolves would have been killed at prospero I think as well (only assuming as I haven't read the book).

Ultramarines- 250,000
---------------------
Word Bearers-100,000
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Alpha Legion/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Death Guard/Imperial Fists/Iron Hands/Iron Warriors/Luna Wolves/Night Lords/Raven Guard/White Scars/World Eaters- 70,000-90,000
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Salamanders- much higher than the Thousand Sons but lower than the 'Core 13'/Space Wolves(30,000-50,000?)
---------------------
Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons- 12,000-15,000


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

_Raven's Flight_, is the only audio I really have respect for thus far, but I question what Corax meant by his legion being smaller than his brother's. His legion isn't that small comparably to a lot of the smaller legions. 

I'm trying to think of the context in which Corax was talking about. I was thinking about the initial assault. I think that during the initial assault, he may have been the biggest legion. The salamanders and the traitor legions couldn't have been bigger than his, especially since their legion purges on the previous Istvaan. and the Iron Hands only had their veterans on the planet... I believe... or at least thats what I've heard. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The only exception would be the second wave. Especially since Corax is referring to the Iron Warrior's legion and how Perturabo thought his tactics were cowardly. That and the Word Bearers legion were in that assault. So that could be a reference. It just seemed that it was weird for Corax to whine about the number of his legion to explain why he deploys his tactics. He makes it sound as though he doesn't have the number to have an all out war. 80000 marines seems to be too large a legion to deploy hit and run tactics successfully.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> I think I remember reading something about the Wolves being smaller as well, and I haven't read Prospero Burns.
> 
> I think it may have been that they only had one successor chapter, number 1000 (maybe?). I know the wolves still ahve more than 1000. but I doubt they have more than 6000 (or more than the Black templars at any rate). A lot of Wolves would have been killed at prospero I think as well (only assuming as I haven't read the book).


They only had one successor chapter because they got absolutely mauled during the Heresy and Scouring. The Space Wolves came away from Prospero severly battered and essentially wandered straight into an Alpha Legion ambush, if it wasn't for their 'mysterious rescuers' I can only imagine Russ' Legion would have been completely annihilated by the Alpha Legion.

The argument for how many warriors the Space Wolves currently have is a topic for another thread, suffice to say that when they broke up into the 2 Chapters (Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers) they were likely only 1,000 strong like the other Chapters created, including the Black Templars, which means that over 14+ years of total war they lost somewhere between 68,000-88,000 Astartes (if like me you think they were roughly the same size as the 'Core' Legions).

@ck- so does Corax state his belief his Legion isn't large enough just before the 2nd wave touches down? Because he might be referencing the fact they just took a mauling from Horus' forces, or something like that.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The description is actually after the second wave hits and before the ambush on an Iron Warrior's patrol, where he states that Perturabo always openly stated Corax and his methods were cowardly. Corax explains that the reason why he used the "hit and run" tactics for his legion suppose to other legions was because his world wasn't very good for obtaining recruits compared to the other legions. Thus he ignored what his brothers thought about him because his legion was smaller than theirs. 

Perturabo is the only brother he references but he vaguely states that he is a small legion compared to the rest.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> The description is actually after the second wave hits and before the ambush on an Iron Warrior's patrol, where he states that Perturabo always openly stated Corax and his methods were cowardly. Corax explains that the reason why he used the "hit and run" tactics for his legion suppose to other legions was because his world wasn't very good for obtaining recruits compared to the other legions. Thus he ignored what his brothers thought about him because his legion was smaller than theirs.
> 
> Perturabo is the only brother he references but he vaguely states that he is a small legion compared to the rest.


I know he spread out his Legion in the Great Crusade, and his tactics enabled him to achieve what other Legions accomplished with greater numbers- perhaps he's referring to the fact that the recruitment process for the RG was lengthier and/or more difficult than for most Legions so he couldn't afford the losses amongst his forces that his brothers could.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I have to disagree with the Sallies being larger than the Thousand Sons. In IA4 on page 22 it says "The Salamanders have never been great in number and were the smallest of the First Founding Legions"

In black and white the Sallies were the smallest


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> I have to disagree with the Sallies being larger than the Thousand Sons. In IA4 on page 22 it says "The Salamanders have never been great in number and were the smallest of the First Founding Legions"
> 
> In black and white the Sallies were the smallest


Cheers, can't believe I never thought to look through my copy of Index Astarte +rep to you good sir.

Here's my own re-evalutated opinion on the Legion grouping:

Ultramarines- 250,000
---------------------
Word Bearers-100,000
---------------------
Alpha Legion/Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Death Guard/Imperial Fists/Iron Hands/Iron Warriors/Luna Wolves/Night Lords/Raven Guard/Space Wolves/White Scars/World Eaters- 70,000-90,000
---------------------
Emperor's Children/Salamanders/Thousand Sons- 10,000-15,000


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

As an Aside, what reason is there for the Salamanders being under strength, we know that the Thousand Sons, and Emperors children both suffered their respective "tragedies" what happened to the Salamanders?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I have to disagree with the Sallies being larger than the Thousand Sons. In IA4 on page 22 it says "The Salamanders have never been great in number and were the smallest of the First Founding Legions"
> 
> In black and white the Sallies were the smallest


Thats interesting. I wonder if they are talking about the Salamanders as a First Founding after the Heresy. After all, the legion of the Salamanders was barely saved thanks to the Ultramarines who unlike the Raven Gaurd weren't able to find an escape. In _Fulgrim_, the Salamanders are described as attacking the whole left flank. Though the Salamanders may have been small I kind of find it hard to believe they were that small. Especially due to the number of Terrain born Salamanders that were first introduced to the legion. 

If it is true they numbered somewhere around 15000-10000, then maybe their must have been an accident similar to the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Edit: Basically ninjad


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

What I do know about the Salamanders is that their recruiting process was the most stringent and lengthy one of all the Legions, with the lowest percentage of successful aspirants joining the Legion- which considering the people of their homeworld are ideal Astartes material says a lot!

Whereas other Legions recruited en masse I see the Sons of Vulkan only 'ascending' 1 in every 100 or 1,000 aspirants, basically the way most Chapters do in 40k (though even in 40k the Salamanders are *still* renowned as having one of the lengthiest and most stringent training/assimilation periods).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> What I do know about the Salamanders is that their recruiting process was the most stringent and lengthy one of all the Legions, with the lowest percentage of successful aspirants joining the Legion- which considering the people of their homeworld are ideal Astartes material says a lot!
> 
> Whereas other Legions recruited en masse I see the Sons of Vulkan only 'ascending' 1 in every 100 or 1,000 aspirants, basically the way most Chapters do in 40k (though even in 40k the Salamanders are *still* renowned as having one of the lengthiest and most stringent training/assimilation periods).


That could possibly be the case. Again, we don't know how many Terrain astartes Vulkan had to start with. It could have possibly been 10,000 or so. It just seemed with legions like the Dark Angels they came to their primarchs world with more astartes. In this case the DA were the first legion so their geneseed might have been used a bit more.

And though there isn't enough evidence to support this, I might add, that Nocturne maybe the harshest world to support human life. So taking into account what Corax said and Spikey Baron; the Salamanders don't have a world really fit enough to support a legion period. Even in 41st they struggle to maintain a chapter. 

I was reading up on Nocturne and it mentioned that one year in Nocturne equals 15 Terrain years. Does this mean that the people on the planet age slower? If so, this can also support the struggle for the Salamanders.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

They shouldn't age any slower beacuse their yearly rotation takes alot longer than Terra, bodys still going to keep clocking on regardless


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

It just means the average life expectancy is probably somewhere between 3 or 4


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe Vulkan didn't want any proto-Astartes in his Legion and so the Sallies had tp wait for the generation who were the correct age underwent their more-stringent transformation. It may also be that they only ever recruited from Nocturne; whilst it doesn't say anywhere, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Legions would recruit from worlds they encountered during the GC, especially if they only had a small homeworld population.

GFP


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well theres no evidence to suggest the proto-astarted fought in the Great Crusade, espcially not in the Legions. Vulkan should have been given command of a full Legion of Astarted like the rest of the primarchs, unless something happened to his gene stock aswell


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm not sure if the "entire" Wolves Legion was sent to Prospero. Especially the invasion of Prospero happened pretty quickly. I'm not sure if Russ was able to muster his entire force to destroy Prospero in time. Though considering the conditions on Fenris I could understand for its slow recruitment rate. However, many worlds like Baal aren't good for recruitment either but they don't suffer from low numbers. Also remember, there would have been a good amount of Terra born Wolves before Russ was found, so at worst perhaps he had the same number as Corax did. Plus, they didn't suffer an accident that the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons did to create such a large gap to the other legions. The idea that the Wolves maybe "really small," stems from the idea of the Wolves sending their entire force to Prospero. Which I don't believe happened. But I maybe wrong.


I can clarify having read some recent spoilers about Prospero Burns from Warseer from a guy who got his hands on a copy.



It's implied the entire Space Wolves Legion was there. The Chaos plan was for both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons to wipe each other out entirely so they would be unable to stop Horus.


Keep in mind this information may not be 100% true since I have no read the book myself yet. But the guy over at Warseer has been reliable so far.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

LoL, spoilers. 



I guess like Nocturne, Fenris wasn't that much of a planet that supported life. I could also see that perhaps the Chaos Gods thought Magnus was indeed going to accept help and totally obliterate the Wolves from Orbit. And it could be that it was only by Magnus' guilt that prevented that from happening. 


For those who are curious but don't want to look at the spoiler, its just basically a possible supportive argument that the Wolves might have been a small legion. Very vague though.

I guess the problem that I have and maybe others as well, is that we look at Magnus Legion, his legion's genetic problem and even his homeworld which really didn't seem very populated. Especially since it only had one city... or so it seems. And despite that problem they eventually went from 1000 astartes to around 12,000-15,000. Thats pretty significant. Also a legion like the Emperor's Children that went from a worse... 200- around maybe that same amount as the Thousand Sons. In fact the only evidence we have that the Emperor's Children were small is due to speculation of their past. We don't really know how fast they recruited and what they had around the Heresy. I maybe wrong, but at least during the time of the Heresy it didn't seem like they were worried about their legions number, like Corax or Magnus was.

Taking that in we have the Salamanders and perhaps the Wolves who are speculated to be around the same number as they are. Even if they recruited lightly, due to their initiations, there must have been something that went wrong with their Terrain number.

Lets look at Angron and his Astartes. Any men that Angron could have used to increase his astartes strength from his home planet were all killed. Angron starts off with only the World Eaters brought to him by the Emperor who are Terrain born. And yet evidence suggests that they might have been a legion high in number, due to their tactics and how they deploy their army. Perhaps larger than the Raven Guard's 80,000.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Angel, of course proto-Astartes fought in the GC. There was Luther and Kor Phaeron, as well as all of those companions of the Primarchs from their homeworld, who were too old to undergo the full Astartes transformation process. There mightn't have been Thunder Warriors, although I don't know if there is a huge difference between the two.

GFP


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I agree that the Space Wolves were likely to be a small Legion. In Visions of Death Page 27 in the part entitled The Khan's Decision it says "Even though the ships of Russ were trying to evade the much larger traitor fleet ...."

Now I'm making a couple of assumptions here but from "A Thousand Sons" there doesn't appear to be much if any fleet vs fleet combat which would mean that the Space Wolves fleet would have been at full strength. Yet it is stated that the Alpha Legion's fleet was much larger. Also bearing in mind that by this stage the AL's fleet may have taken casualties while fighting the RG, Sallies and IHs fleets around Istvaan 5.

I'm also assuming that the fleets of the legions reflected their size in that a small legion wouldn't have a huge fleet.

I'm not sure if it says anywhere how big the AL were, can anyone find any info on this?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> LoL, spoilers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Vague yes. But going from my sources it seems that the Chaos gods wanted both Magnus and Russ dead. Not just Russ.


Here is the original thread in case you want to know.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283697

He actually says something about the Wolves outnumbering the Sons 10-1, but he was unclear wheter that was a personal opinion or wheter that was actually mentioned in the book. He did not respond when I asked him again.

Now in A Thousand Sons Wyrdmake actually compares the Space Wolves gene-problems to the Thousand Sons gene-problems. There is no flat out statment, but it's heavily implied that they suffer from gene-seed problems. (AKA the Wulfen)



zerachiel76 said:


> Now I'm making a couple of assumptions here but from "A Thousand Sons" there doesn't appear to be much if any fleet vs fleet combat which would mean that the Space Wolves fleet would have been at full strength. Yet it is stated that the Alpha Legion's fleet was much larger. Also bearing in mind that by this stage the AL's fleet may have taken casualties while fighting the RG, Sallies and IHs fleets around Istvaan 5.


There was no fleet combat around Prospero. A Thousand Sons states that Magnus ordered the Sons's fleet away deliberately.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im with the Baron on the Emperor's Children. In fact I think that _Fulgrim_ may have actually even referenced the Emperor's Children as being 10,000 strong, i'll have to check that though.


Last time I read Galaxy in Flames I picked up the numbers of Emperors Children to be around just above 10,000 as well. 



ckcrawford said:


> I'm not sure if the "entire" Wolves Legion was sent to Prospero. Especially the invasion of Prospero happened pretty quickly. I'm not sure if Russ was able to muster his entire force to destroy Prospero in time. Though considering the conditions on Fenris I could understand for its slow recruitment rate.


Battle for the Abyss is one sign that there are Wolves posted here and there across the stars so I guess not everyone was mustered for destroying Prospero. :biggrin:



ckcrawford said:


> _Raven's Flight_, is the only audio I really have respect for thus far, but I question what Corax meant by his legion being smaller than his brother's. His legion isn't that small comparably to a lot of the smaller legions.
> 
> It just seemed that it was weird for Corax to whine about the number of his legion to explain why he deploys his tactics. He makes it sound as though he doesn't have the number to have an all out war. 80000 marines seems to be too large a legion to deploy hit and run tactics successfully.


Yeah I loved that audio-piece as well. My theory is when Corax says coming to Issvan V with 80,000, he doesnt just talk about his own Legion but all 3 of them. So that would 80,000/3 = 28,000~isch. Because when he continues saying now he only has 3,000, is because Iron Hands and Salamanders are all but destroyed. As I recall from Fulgrim it was only a dozen that escaped away alive of the loyalist (before Corax escaped much later).


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> Yeah I loved that audio-piece as well. My theory is when Corax says coming to Issvan V with 80,000, he doesnt just talk about his own Legion but all 3 of them. So that would 80,000/3 = 28,000~isch. Because when he continues saying now he only has 3,000, is because Iron Hands and Salamanders are all but destroyed. As I recall from Fulgrim it was only a dozen that escaped away alive of the loyalist (before Corax escaped much later).


He only had 3,000 left because it was that number of Raven Guard that was left at Deliverance (RG home base) and didn't go with the rest of the Legion to confront Horus.

The Iron Hands who confronted Horus were entirely wiped out- but it wasn't the majority of the IH Legion, it was just the Veteran Company and Ferrus Manus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Angel, of course proto-Astartes fought in the GC. There was Luther and Kor Phaeron, as well as all of those companions of the Primarchs from their homeworld, who were too old to undergo the full Astartes transformation process. There mightn't have been Thunder Warriors, although I don't know if there is a huge difference between the two.
> 
> GFP


By proto-Astartes i had assumed we were still talking Thunder Warriors etc. Not 'half' Astartes like Luther and co. I mean the very name of proto indicates that they are protoype Astartes, or the first ones, the precursor to actual Astartes, something Luther and Kor Phaeron are not.


In regards to the Space Wolves full strength being sent to Prospero, doesn't Bulveye in Tales of Heresy say that in the order from Russ, then entire Legion was to muster


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> Yeah I loved that audio-piece as well. My theory is when Corax says coming to Issvan V with 80,000, he doesnt just talk about his own Legion but all 3 of them. So that would 80,000/3 = 28,000~isch. Because when he continues saying now he only has 3,000, is because Iron Hands and Salamanders are all but destroyed. As I recall from Fulgrim it was only a dozen that escaped away alive of the loyalist (before Corax escaped much later).


No, I recently listened to the audio. Corax is comparing his legion to the others, and thus just talking about his number. Remember, the Raven Guard could have possibly been the biggest loyalist legion on Istvaan. The Iron Hands only had their veterans and the Salamanders were a very small legion. So even if the Raven Guard had 28,000 the other astartes legions don't add up.



Baron Spikey said:


> He only had 3,000 left because it was that number of Raven Guard that was left at Deliverance (RG home base) and didn't go with the rest of the Legion to confront Horus.
> 
> The Iron Hands who confronted Horus were entirely wiped out- but it wasn't the majority of the IH Legion, it was just the Veteran Company and Ferrus Manus.


Correct on the second part. Your first part is partly true as well. What Corax states while on the Thunderhawk while trying to escape is that he came to Istvaan with 80,000 and is leaving with a mere 3000. The astartes left on Deliverance were 200 astartes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Iron Hands who confronted Horus were entirely wiped out- but it wasn't the majority of the IH Legion, it was just the Veteran Company and Ferrus Manus.


A quick note on that is that in all sources it states 'Veteran Companies' (plural). So I imagine it was a significant portion of the Legion that went with Ferrus to Isstvan (although of course by no means the majority), just merely not only the first company (or whatever company passes for veterans among the Iron Hands).



Angel of Blood said:


> In regards to the Space Wolves full strength being sent to Prospero, doesn't Bulveye in Tales of Heresy say that in the order from Russ, then entire Legion was to muster


Yeah, the sources we have currently (pre-_Prospero Burns_) state that the _entire_ Space Wolves Legion were sent to Prospero under Russ. Excluding of course the minimal numbers spread throughout the galaxy who couldn't be mustered (Brynngar from _BftA_ for example). Similarily the entire _Thousand Sons_ Legion likely wasn't present, aside from the Astartes present in the dispersed fleet, there would have been a minimal number of Astartes spread throughout the galaxy, mostly among other Legions as was required (as mentioned in _A Thousand Sons_). But for practical reasons, it's logical to just state the _entirety_ of both Legions were present (aside from the Thousand Sons' fleet).


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> He only had 3,000 left because it was that number of Raven Guard that was left at Deliverance (RG home base) and didn't go with the rest of the Legion to confront Horus.
> 
> The Iron Hands who confronted Horus were entirely wiped out- but it wasn't the majority of the IH Legion, it was just the Veteran Company and Ferrus Manus.


I thought there was like only 100 Raven Guard left stationed on Deliverence. Cause Corax keeps on saying what numbers he has left, first its like 4000, then when being confronted by the IW its down to just above 3000, then after the WE is below 3000 I belive. But I had missed the part of it only being the Veteran Company of the IH. I should re-read Fulgrim.



ckcrawford said:


> No, I recently listened to the audio. Corax is comparing his legion to the others, and thus just talking about his number. Remember, the Raven Guard could have possibly been the biggest loyalist legion on Istvaan. The Iron Hands only had their veterans and the Salamanders were a very small legion. So even if the Raven Guard had 28,000 the other astartes legions don't add up.
> 
> Correct on the second part. Your first part is partly true as well. What Corax states while on the Thunderhawk while trying to escape is that he came to Istvaan with 80,000 and is leaving with a mere 3000. The astartes left on Deliverance were 200 astartes.


Oh ok, well now I understand your point and it seems reasonable. k: and that about 200 Marines is how I understood it as well.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

...in Throne of Lies, the Night Lord "gathering" head count was some where between 9 and 12 thousand (two diffrent guesses were cast, no specific numbers were given)...granted, every last one of them would not have been able to show...but it must have been pretty close..."how many are there?"...."it looks like, ALL of them..."


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Flayed 0ne said:


> ...in Throne of Lies, the Night Lord "gathering" head count was some where between 9 and 12 thousand (two diffrent guesses were cast, no specific numbers were given)...granted, every last one of them would not have been able to show...but it must have been pretty close..."how many are there?"...."it looks like, ALL of them..."


I recall Cyrion saying something like ''half the Legion'' was present.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah, the sources we have currently (pre-_Prospero Burns_) state that the _entire_ Space Wolves Legion were sent to Prospero under Russ. Excluding of course the minimal numbers spread throughout the galaxy who couldn't be mustered (Brynngar from _BftA_ for example). Similarily the entire _Thousand Sons_ Legion likely wasn't present, aside from the Astartes present in the dispersed fleet, there would have been a minimal number of Astartes spread throughout the galaxy, mostly among other Legions as was required (as mentioned in _A Thousand Sons_). But for practical reasons, it's logical to just state the _entirety_ of both Legions were present (aside from the Thousand Sons' fleet).


Alright. I hope you got your copy of _Prospero Burns_ today. 
So we have a minimal amount of astartes of both legions despersed and it sounds pretty reasonable. But it seems to me I'm more going with the Wolves being one of the bigger legions.



But from what _Prospero Burns_ has stated, it seems that the wolves may have actually been a large fighting force. Especially if the chaos gods thought they were a mightly military threatened Horus. The force that we saw that attacked the Thousand Sons, seems to be a "first wave" of marines in Russ' legions that would have been better at taking down Magnus' sorcerers. Because it also seemed to be the "secret force" Russ had in Nikea.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Alright. I hope you got your copy of _Prospero Burns_ today.
> So we have a minimal amount of astartes of both legions despersed and it sounds pretty reasonable. But it seems to me I'm more going with the Wolves being one of the bigger legions.


If that's true then Prospero Burns has retonned things. The Space Wolf codex said that they where'' never a large legion''



> The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I haven't read any Space Wolves -specific fluff but I always figurered the space wolves to be a smaller legion, mostly reading from the horus heresy collected visions I think.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> If that's true then Prospero Burns has retonned things. The Space Wolf codex said that they where'' never a large legion''


Could be possible. But even Raven's Flight showing that Corax thought his legion was one of the smallest with 80,000. The assumption I'm making is that both the encounters with the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion, severely mauled the Space Wolves legion.

Plus, I wonder if the Index Astartes are in the context of post heresy speculation. Suppose to Pre-Heresy and Heresy where we are getting first hand speculation as to what the legions where. 

Also, I don't think any of us knew the Thousand Sons were that small and about their genetic accident until the _A Thousand Sons_ book was released. Correct me if I'm wrong. Talking primarily about the Salamanders, it could be that the Salamanders also had a genetic accident that will be written about.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Could be possible. But even Raven's Flight showing that Corax thought his legion was one of the smallest with 80,000. .


_Raven's Flight_ is contridicted by by other sources though. _Fulgrim_ lists the combined Traitor forces as being around 30,000 Astartes. (The Sons of Horus, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard and the World Eaters) Even if we take into account losses fighting the loyalist elements of the Legions earlier that's still way too small for multiple Legions.

Meanwhile the loyalist numbers are described as being at 40,000 Astartes and at the height of the battle there where ''60,000 Astartes'' in total for both sides. (At that point the battle is well and truely joined with everything commited for the loyalists, so they don't have any more reserves) Appearantly, the Raven Guard in _Raven's Flight_ have more Astartes then the _combined_ loyalist and traitor forces in _Fulgrim_ do.

_Galaxy in Flames_ records the Emperor's Children as being ''more than ten thousand Astartes strong'' which implies not more than 20,000. That was before the Istavaan purges.

Frankly the numbers contridict themselves in the Horus Heresy series.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Though the more recent HH books appear to be agreeing with HH: Collected Visions on Legion numbers being much larger than in some of the earlier, inaccurate, HH books.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> _Raven's Flight_ is contridicted by by other sources though. _Fulgrim_ lists the combined Traitor forces as being around 30,000 Astartes. (The Sons of Horus, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard and the World Eaters) Even if we take into account losses fighting the loyalist elements of the Legions earlier that's still way too small for multiple Legions.
> 
> Meanwhile the loyalist numbers are described as being at 40,000 Astartes and at the height of the battle there where ''60,000 Astartes'' in total for both sides. (At that point the battle is well and truely joined with everything commited for the loyalists, so they don't have any more reserves) Appearantly, the Raven Guard in _Raven's Flight_ have more Astartes then the _combined_ loyalist and traitor forces in _Fulgrim_ do.
> 
> ...


Thats true. But I've always just regarded it as the first wave of the big battle. As I read on, more numbers started appearing. As pods hit the ground and reserves were probably released on both sides. I doubt the Astartes force was as big as possible during the beginning of it. I think even a battle like this they were trying to be a bit tactful. And they were. They had two legions on both flanks and etc... 

I feel like I'm almost trying to cover up for the GW astartes numbers mistakes'. But I think most of the problems with the numbers can be explained one way or another. Its not like completely drastic changes.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Thats true. But I've always just regarded it as the first wave of the big battle. As I read on, more numbers started appearing. As pods hit the ground and reserves were probably released on both sides. I doubt the Astartes force was as big as possible during the beginning of it. I think even a battle like this they were trying to be a bit tactful. And they were. They had two legions on both flanks and etc...
> 
> I feel like I'm almost trying to cover up for the GW astartes numbers mistakes'. But I think most of the problems with the numbers can be explained one way or another. Its not like completely drastic changes.


Maybe, but re-reading the passages again it really seems like McNeill meant those numbers. By the time the 60,000 man number is mentioned the battle is pretty much in full swing for both sides.

I get your point, but for me there is too much inconsistancy for the Legion numbers.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree. I guess in overall we are basically laying a foundation in which all information can make sense. I got an email from Graham McNeill today and he said this:



> We just make it up.
> 
> Seriously, the numbers are relative, and ‘powerful’ can mean many things, not just lots of guys. Basically, it doesn’t really matter the exact number, as long as you accept there’s a lot of them. And the IA articles/collected visions are kind of written as legendary history, like saying that Xerxes had a million warriors at Thermopylae... The one I will comment on with first hand knowledge is the Thousand Sons, as the numbers that appear in that book were all very carefully chosen for deliberate effect.


At least we know now that the Index Astartes are basically kind of like legends. Not real specific though. 

But I am surprised. If the Heresy Team is indeed a team, why wouldn't try to make more sense of things? I don't think its that hard. We are trying to make sense of it right now. And I think we are doing an alright job with what little information we have. 

It also seems that even though they probably do read each others works, they seem to forget some specifics. Which actually surprises me. I remember Graham McNeill showing all the codexes and books he tries to keep track of. Because, I also said that ADB was specific with numbers in his books _The First Heretic_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Thing is you can say that for the collected visions and astartes, but thats a poor excuse when we are getting direct quotes and first person accounts of the numbers arrayed. Like there were 100,000 Word Bearers, we have several direct quotes of people saying it and it being decribed from a third person point of view. The HH series isn't being left open for you to decide whether events were exagerated, i was under the impression it was existing as much to confirm the stories and put a final decision on them. Again i think its a poor excuse, like you said, it wouldn't be hard for the BL team to sit down together and discuss and decide the individual Legion numbers.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Alright, I was asked to provide some relevant information by ckcrawford here.

All of this is from Bolter and Chainsword BTW. All from A D-B.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=215584&st=100&p=2592766&#entry2592766



> Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.





> Good question, dude. And I genuinely don't mean to be a useless tool when I say "Uh, I have no idea...", but I have absolutely no freaking idea, and I wouldn't want to speak for Graham (or any of the others) about details of previous novels. While the figure has (finally...) been set in stone, and it unfortunately contradicts some of the Heresy series novels, it's not exactly clear how it affects the previous figures - especially in regards to something like A Thousand Sons, where numbers have such an intriguing part to play in the narrative.
> 
> As a rule of thumb, I take the figures in all earlier novels, and just multiply them by 10. Where the Thousand Sons are concerned, I either tell myself that not all of the Sons were on Prospero at the time, or I grit my teeth and times the figure by 10, destroying Graham's numerological coolness. The 10,000 Sons doesn't sound as good, though.


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=221745&st=0&start=0

For the record, the official Legion sizes have been settled, post-publication of A Thousand Sons. The figures in the most recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions are correct. Roughly, Legions were "about 100,000" strong.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=214814&hl=numbers+legion



> Regarding legion sizes, I asked this at the last Horus Heresy meeting. The conversation went pretty much word for word like this:
> 
> ME: Sorry to bring this up again... About the conflicting Legion sizes... Some sources say about 10,000, others say about 100,000. It comes down to older Studio material as well as the previous HH novels, or Raven's Flight, the current Chaos Codex, and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. So we have two figures.
> 
> ...





> And to answer your Night Lords stuff, Gree:
> 
> Did they use Chapters? I suspect all the Legions did, though most didn't make a big deal out of it. To the Word Bearers, it clearly mattered a lot. To others, it was more likely just a unit of force measurement / numerical organisation, and they focused more on the traditions and customs of their company. But at this stage, I'm not sure. I'll bring it up at the next meeting.
> 
> ...


This one deals mostly with the Night Lords.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks Gree. Much appreciated. I'll try to absorb this tonight after work.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

From all the chaotic information over the numbers I have done a little changing in terms of the quantity in each legion. Not much has changed. But it is interesting. 

1. Ultramarines 250000
2. Word Bearers 100000
3-16. Average Legion 95,000-85,000
17. Raven Guard 80,000
18. Salamanders 40,000
20. Thousand Sons/Emperor's Children- 20,000

The last one I'm actually turning the nob more than I should. It still seems a bit high. But I figure the involvement of the Emperor's Children on the Istvaan's defends it and the fact that many aspects of the Thousand Son's fleet were not involved in the burning of Prospero.

The small number in Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children can perhaps account for how the traitor legions were not able to overwhelm the loyalist force on Terra like one would normally think. Perhaps number is one of the primary reasons why Horus was not able to destroy the loyalist force on Terra.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'll point out that the Word Bearers number was given at Monarchia, fifty years before the Heresy. They would have had time to grow larger since then. I don't believe the Word Bearers numbered 100,000 at the start of the Heresy.

Of course the number becomes muddled when he take into account the Brotherhood purges of the Terran Astartes. But there could't be that many Terrans in the Legion by the time of the Heresy.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I would perhaps put the legions somewhere around 90,000. I think 95,000 is a bit to close to the Word Bearer trade mark which they respectively deserve. For the most part though I agree with you.

I believe the Salamanders need to be elaborated on a little more though.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Hey Charles,
> 
> For a long time, the ‘canon’ had it at 10,000, but at a recent HH meeting, we decided that such a number was laughably small (even for Space Marines) and figured that that number was one the ‘history’ books would remember. Aaron kinda throws numbers and thoughts around with wild abandon that might represent his idea of what the numbers are, but which don’t necessarily mean they’re right. The number in any one legion isn’t fixed, and can range from the tens of thousands, to nearly a hundred thousand or so – and everything inbetween. The Legion sizes I had in A Thousand Sons were very specific from a numerology point of view, and the defect in their genes/razing of Prospero allowed me to make it whatever I wanted.
> 
> ...


 17/2/11 19:25

I think it's important to point out McNeill's ideas about Legion size in Thousand Sons as being essential to the overall fluff.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> 17/2/11 19:25
> 
> I think it's important to point out McNeill's ideas about Legion size in Thousand Sons as being essential to the overall fluff.


If I was able to give you Rep/hug you delightedly/buy you a pint I would do all 3 whilst hopping from one leg to the other with glee.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> If I was able to give you Rep/hug you delightedly/buy you a pint I would do all 3 whilst hopping from one leg to the other with glee.


Thanks, lol, I'm pretty far away. But I just thought yesterday's discussion was a nightmare over how the Thousand Sons could be that big of a legion. It still seems that those numbers work and were definitely meant to be.

Edit: I also think its important to point out, that he talks about the legion's numbers being in between. And not possibly over. It supports the fact that the Word Bearers were not over 100,000 even after the 50 years after their disgrace.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Thanks, lol, I'm pretty far away. But I just thought yesterday's discussion was a nightmare over how the Thousand Sons could be that big of a legion. It still seems that those numbers work and were definitely menat to be.
> 
> Edit: I also think its important to point out, that he talks about the legion's numbers being in between. And not possibly over. It supports the fact that the Word Bearers were not over 100,000 even after the 50 years after their disgrace.


But we know of at least one Legion over 100,000 Astartes, the Ultramarines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> But we know of at least one Legion over 100,000 Astartes, the Ultramarines.


Yes sir. You are correct in that department.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Gree said:


> But we know of at least one Legion over 100,000 Astartes, the Ultramarines.





ckcrawford said:


> Yes sir. You are correct in that department.


Ah but they are explicitly stated as being 250,000 strong at their peak- can't really say otherwise if we're now all to use the numbers in _HH: Collected Visions._


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I think the UM should be well over 100,000 as it has been suggested that they are in fact three legions combined.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Hammer49 said:


> I think the UM should be well over 100,000 as it has been suggested that they are in fact three legions combined.


No. As I said before in the other thread. That's just two Word Bearers joking around. The author has already come out and clarifed that.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hammer49 said:


> I think the UM should be well over 100,000 as it has been suggested that they are in fact three legions combined.


Very much agreed. There should be no surprise at all really over why the Ultramarines are that big of a legion. They control an entire system. In fact for the Word Bearers to even have brought it up seems kind of stupid if you really think about it. 

For one, each of those Ultramarine Worlds is technologically advanced and very prosperous planet. Not to mention, they form the biggest military force in the Imperium. They have no problem with recruitment like lets say Corax and his Raven Guard do. And the Raven Guard managed to get around 80,000. Which isn't really small compared to some of the more devasted or unlucky legions but its suppose to make us believe that that number is a relatively small number comparrabily to most.

It actually gets me thinking that maybe the Ultramarines were very picky and probably had one of the hardest recruiting trials from the legions. If you think about the population and worlds they had compared to many other legions to recruit from.


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