# 6th Edition Force weapons...GK's



## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

According to the leaked Rulebook page.Force weapons come in three categories.
Read the paragraph above the Chart 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20gh91Ba8J4/T-nRIJxrvWI/AAAAAAAAGRo/wTQOz4g-Kyk/s1600/werwer.jpg

1.Force Sword AP3, strength as user,Melee,Force Weapon 
2.Force Axe AP2, +1 strength, Unwieldy,Melee,Force Weapon
3.Force Stave AP4, +2 strength,Concussive force,Melee,Force Weapon

Nemesis Force Sword = Force Sword + Nemesis Rules
Nemesis Halberd = Force Axe + Nemesis Rules 
Nemesis Warding Stave = Force stave + Nemesis Rules
Nemesis Falchions = Force Sword + Nemesis Rules
Nemesis Daemon Hammer = Force Sword + Thunder Hammer + Nemesis Rules

ANYWAY

Just wanted to highlight that Grey Knights with Halberds are S5, AP2, I6, befor fireing up "Hammer Hand" AND with "Might of Titan"

I6,S7,AP2,+2D6 That is killer,while the standard Nemesis Sword becomes rightly weaker.A more balanced trade-off as far as I'm concerned (excluding GK hate)...it makes you more likely as a GK player to use the more expensive entries and thus reduce the numbers in the army in general?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Look at "Unusual Force Weapons" and then reassess what you posted. They're AP3 with their special rules unless an FAQ says otherwise.


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## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

Ah shite embarrassed much


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## SuperSquid (Feb 5, 2011)

zion is correct. Because each of the GK force weapons have their own rules, they are treated as unusual force weapons and would therefore be set as AP3 and whatever characteristics they have in their codex. But congrats on the find, that is interesting reading.


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

Also, if halberds were "axes" they would make the user i3 (unwieldy makes you base i1 +2 for halberd rules).


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

Making halberds count as axes is a horrible move. It's whole premise for having the +2I is that it has the longer reach. Fluff wise, that is correct. And having put them on my GK's I'll be ticked off! lol


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Can we not wait for the FAQ or Rulebook?


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

Of course we can. I was just pointing out that it'd suck. I like my I6 hitting terminator armor wearing GK's.


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## inqusitor magneto (Jan 23, 2012)

i actually saw the rule book page which states the above and what zion wrote was correct. Since GK have nemesis force weapons, different from regular force weapons we follow ap3+melee and our codex entry. If someone argues no you dont you have a force weapon, then kindly point out to them the understatement in the BRB and show them that nemesis force weapons not only cause instant death but daemonbane which affect daemons and psykers alike as well as their separate entry. These attribute make them unqiue in this catagory. Rule book comes out tommorrow faq probably in a few weeks and i do not think this will be changed. if anything further clarified with the words "in your army codex entry"


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

however they will still strike at I3, which i am very please about. and i expect most DE players will be, as halberd wielding termis will no longer have higher I than their wyches


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

khrone forever said:


> however they will still strike at I3, which i am very please about. and i expect most DE players will be, as halberd wielding termis will no longer have higher I than their wyches


Why?
There not classed as force axe, they just follow the info for unusual force weapons, which means still strikeing at I6, and not I3, as there not classed as Unwieldy.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

According to my rulebook they strike at normal initiative. They are exactly the same as they were other than being AP3 rather than AP2 

It isn't affected by the rules entry above it as it count as Unusual with its own special rules 

really that rule only affects SMs, CSMs and guard


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> however they will still strike at I3


Why, or are you talking about other "normal" force weapons.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Force weapons strike at standard I unless its a force axe, P60 of the rulebook 

Nemesis weapons still get standard benefits that they did before


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## inqusitor magneto (Jan 23, 2012)

khrone forever said:


> however they will still strike at I3, which i am very please about. and i expect most DE players will be, as halberd wielding termis will no longer have higher I than their wyches



this is incorrect as Gk carry nemesis force weapons which make them unique. This means they do not follow the profile in the BRB but the profile in their codex with the standard ap3+melee or do you like to ignore what is written in the BRB. lol sorry daemons & DE are still screwed


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

For those who haven't bothered looking at the full page that is showing in the first post let me give a brief summary:

Force Weapons *without* special rules now have special rules in addition to their Instant Death rule. This is determined by what kind of Force Weapon they are.

*HOWEVER* Force Weapons *with* special rules _(like the Nemesis Force Weapons)_ *only* gain AP3 *in addition* to their other rules.

There is no debate on this, and to continue to try and argue it is silly. Nemesis Force Weapons are AP3 with no new bonuses or penalties that aren't already in their rules. End of story.


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## Greg210 (Jun 30, 2012)

ok but what with the nemesis Daemon hammer ? if this use "AP3 *in addition* to their other rules " then what ? Thunder hammer give S x2 and AP 2 so the nemesis version will have ap 3 instead ?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, Daemonhammers get hit with the nerf bat, but apart from that it's all cool. Axes for CSM are the real kick in the balls, IMHO. What else am I supposed to give my Terminators? May as well universally arm with Fists now. But that's ok, because the rest of 6th is great.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Greg210 said:


> ok but what with the nemesis Daemon hammer ? if this use "AP3 *in addition* to their other rules " then what ? Thunder hammer give S x2 and AP 2 so the nemesis version will have ap 3 instead ?


From the Grey Knights FAQ:


> Page 54 - Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.
> Change the first sentence to read "Unless otherwise stated, all Nemesis Force Weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in the _Warhammer 40,000_ rulebook."


So I would say, yes. Yes it would. It's not a Thunder Hammer, it's a psychically charged magic hammer. It's AP3, not AP2.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Zion said:


> So I would say, yes. Yes it would. It's not a Thunder Hammer, it's a psychically charged magic hammer. It's AP3, not AP2.


First thing I asked my manager at the store and he said the hammers are AP2. It'll probably be clarified in a later faq he said. The wording was a bit unclear (as tends to happen with these releases). 

It's a thunderhammer, it's got the same stats as one, it's gonna have AP2. Even if you don't play GKs, common sense should point to the obvious solution here.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

elmir said:


> First thing I asked my manager at the store and he said the hammers are AP2. It'll probably be clarified in a later faq he said. The wording was a bit unclear (as tends to happen with these releases).
> 
> It's a thunderhammer, it's got the same stats as one, it's gonna have AP2. Even if you don't play GKs, common sense should point to the obvious solution here.


Written FAQ and Rules > Store Managers

Unless GW specifically errattas the Nemesis Daemonhammer to have the stats of a Thunderhammer it doesn't. And since they didn't, it doesn't. It's now about RAI, it's about RAW, which are all we actually have when we look at the rules and the FAQs. If you and your friends agree to house rule it that's fine, but don't expect everyone else to jump on board.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't expect them to no... 

Then again, it's exactly these sort of little things that makes me play against the people I actually know before the game. Especially at the release of a new edition that hasn't had it's holes plastered yet with FAQs. 

Thanks again for reminding me to avoid pick-up games! :grin:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Zion said:


> From the Grey Knights FAQ:
> 
> 
> So I would say, yes. Yes it would. It's not a Thunder Hammer, it's a psychically charged magic hammer. It's AP3, not AP2.


But it IS a thunderhammer. The entry in the codex explicitely says "A Nemesis Deamon Hammer uses the rules for Thunder Hammers". In fact, it's a sidebar rule for all NFW that adds that it is a Force Weapon...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

boreas said:


> But it IS a thunderhammer. The entry in the codex explicitely says "A Nemesis Deamon Hammer uses the rules for Thunder Hammers". In fact, it's a sidebar rule for all NFW that adds that it is a Force Weapon...


And there is the exception to the "Unusual Force Weapons" rule then. I apologize, I haven't looked at my copy of the Grey Knights codex in the past couple months and had forgotten about that.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Zion said:


> Written FAQ and Rules > Store Managers
> 
> Unless GW specifically errattas the Nemesis Daemonhammer to have the stats of a Thunderhammer it doesn't. And since they didn't, it doesn't. It's now about RAI, it's about RAW, which are all we actually have when we look at the rules and the FAQs. If you and your friends agree to house rule it that's fine, but don't expect everyone else to jump on board.



Actually, I just read over this faq again. Hammers and doomfists are AP2... You are just flat out wrong, GW hasn't errated the daemonhammer to have thunderhammer rules *because it was already in the GK book!*

FAQed lines: 

Page 54 – Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.
Change the first sentence to read “*Unless otherwise stated*, all Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

The bold part is pretty important here. All the other nemesis weaponry just has lines/stats added to it (without it stating they are something different to force weapons).

For example: 

*Nemesis force halberd*

_Fluff text here_. Nemesis halberds are two-handed weapons. In addition, the wielder of a Nemesis halberd strikes at +2 initiative. 

--> conclusion: unusual force weapon with added initiative benefit. 

*Nemesis warding stave*

_Fluff text here_. A model wielding a Nemesis warding stave has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused in close combat. 

--> conclusion: Unusual force weapon with added advantage of 2+ save in CC.

Both these weapons don't mention them following any specific weapon rules SO: “*Unless otherwise stated*, all Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

However:

*Nemesis Daemon Hammer:*

_Fluff text here_. A Nemesis Daemo hammer uses the rules for thunder hammers (see the warhammer 40k rulebook). Note that a dreadknight armed with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer strikes in normal initiative order rather then at initiative 1. 

--> conclusion: this is a thunderhammer that has the forceweapon insta-gib rule added to it. 

Same deal for the Nemesis doomfists. It SPECIFICALY states you need to use the rules for a dreadnough CCW, just like the daemonhammer says you need to use the rules for thunderhammers.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Ah, nvm, Boreas seems to have pointed this out already. My bad!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

elmir said:


> Ah, nvm, Boreas seems to have pointed this out already. My bad!


Yeah you were a little behind on that, and could have just pointed out the same thing. And honestly it's an easy thing to miss if you don't regularly dig through the codex (this is why I actually own codexes for armies I don't play, because it's a good way to confirm things instead of assuming them at face value). 

But yes, I forgot about Daemonhammers counting as Thunderhammers, as I'm sure a lot people have forgotten about them to be honest since 5th Edition had people jumping up and down and saying to take only Halberds since they made you I6 (because hitting at S8 (or S10 with Hammerhand) was a -bad- thing to have a couple of in a squad apparently....). As long as Grey Knight players show that to their opponents if there is any complaints or confusion and that should clear it all up.


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## Dantes Finest (Aug 18, 2012)

I hope that this helps.

In the wargear section of the GK dex on pg. 54 it states the hammer as following the same rules as Thunderhammers in the 40k rulebook, so it follows all the rules for thunderhammer on pg.61! that is pretty easy.

oh i guess it helps to read all the way to the end of the thread. lol


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