# contrast of skill/intelligence categories among the primarchs



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Before I begin, I would like to say that this thread is to serve as a base point for a thread in which people can discuss, change and update as fluff comes out, or opinions change. It is not meant to be based purely among my perception but an average of the majorities. So let's begin shall we? As time goes on I or a mod can edit it to be more concise and well structured. Each category will consist on the top primarchs for that category, not in any particular number. There is no limit to how many can be in one category as the goal of this is to make enough categories and rankings of their skills to make a circular stats chart for each. this is due to different primarchs viewing differe primarchs as the top, ill try to explain best I can...

Corax viewed only 3 primarchs superior to him in combat skill, angron, sang, and horus. Contrastingly horus states the only 3 primarchs to ever best him in combat were russ, sang, and I do not recall the third at the moment, also he states he trained every primarch in combat, except kurze, so if horus could take him or not is unknown.

Note: this is all pre daemon prince primarchs, all human forms.

Note 2: I tried to rank them from best to least in each category, feel free to come to a concensus on rankings for each category.

Combat skill (person to person)
A. Kurze (due to dismantling another fully armed primarch along with his terminator clad honor guard, while naked and confined in a room, and he blew up the entire wing too with his srange powers)
B. Russ
C. Sang
D. Angron
E. Corax
F. Horus

Combat skill (person vs army/masses)
A. Magnus
B. Sang
B. Angron
C. Mort (bc of aoe poisons)
D. Russ
E. Angron

Assassination
A. Kurze
B. Corax
C. Alpharius

Stealth
A. Alpharius omegron
B. Corax
C. Konrad kurze

Macro (skill and effeciency at control of large armies and large systems)
A. Rob
B. Dorn
C. Horus
D. Sang
E. Lion

Micro (skill and effeciency at control of small units/small systems)
A. Corax
B. Konrad kurze (small squad based tactics/individual based tactics)
C. Alpharius (individuals trained to operate singularily)
D. Russ (wolf packs)
E. Lion

Disruption tactics
A. Kurze
B. Corax
C. Alpharius
D. Khan

Hit and run tactics
A. Khan
B. Kurze
C. Corax

Shock troop tactics
A. Sang
B. Russ
C. Angron

Bulwark/aggression tactics 
A. Angron
B. Mort
C. Russ

Siege tactics
A. Perturabo
B. Dorn (if you know how to counter siege and defend you know at least something about siege.
D. Lion (for when he sieged that one world with the wolves and did it much more effeciently then they)

Manipulation (the ability and effeciency at influencing others)
A. Alpharius
B. Horus
C. Rob
D. Magnus (I imagine he could mind control some one?)
E. Kurze (intimidation coercion, fear)

Psyker powers offensive
A. Magnus
B. Kurze (he had some weird psyker like feats, such as blowing up the room he was held captive in and killing everyone around it, even though naked and unarmed, or cloaking himself with shadows. Even another primarch says he radiates madness. As well as forsight and battle precognition)
C. Sang
C. Russ (psychic scream?)
D. Corax (invisibility clouding minds)

Psyker powers defensive
A. Russ (psyker immunity - magnus focusing all his power at russ only made him stronger)
B. Corax
C. Kurze (again a wwild card as his powers are very unknown)

Long range tactics
A. Magnus

So that's it for now, I'm tired -_- if anyone else wants to add a category feel free to do so and ill update asap. Eventually I would like to make a circular chart for each showing graphically how far their skill extends in each category in a circle like pattern.

Enjoy and have fun!


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

uhh. Man many of those are assumed. I would first traits individually.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well I tried to show how a primarch does across a plethora of dimensions rather then just the one they accel at, to show how a primarch looks over all, raher then just in their niche


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

A lot of these just seemed plucked out of the aether. Russ's Psychic scream? Seems an odd collection at best. 

Aramoro


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I have sort of co-opted the above list. My examples go from highest to lowest.

*Combat skill (person to person)*
- Leman Russ defeats Magnus (both armed) during the Battle of Prospero
- Ferrus Manus comes close to defeating Fulgrim _until_ the latter draws his Laer Blade and is infused with "mostrous power" during the Battle of Isstvan V
- Leman Russ fights Lion El'Jonson to a draw (hand-to-hand) during the events of "The Lion and the Wolf"
- Fulgrim defeats Ferrus Manus in single combat aboard the latter's flagship, but one can argue that this had to do with the surprise and shock of the situation
- Fulgrim comes close to defeating Ferrus Manus (as per above example), but ultimately has to use his Laer Blade to win
- Conrad Kurze catches Rogal Dorn unawares and unarmored during events following his sanctioning for atrocities
- Alpharius OR Omegon OR a Captain acting in their stead is wounded, if negligibly, by a Black Lucifer bodyguard during the events of "Legion"

*Combat skill (person vs army/masses)*
- Angron, Corax, Ferrus Manus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Vulcan demonstrate spectacular skill in engaging masses of Astartes during the Battle of Isstvan V
- Lion El'Jonson slays or sends fleeing dozens of Sons of Horus in a matter of seconds during the events of "Fallen Angels"
- Leman Russ is shown as unstoppable against Prospero Spireguard during the Battle of Prospero [how about against Astartes?]

Assassination/Stealth
- Corax is noted to be the undisputed master of stealth
- Conrad Kurze shows particular effectiveness in using darkness while engaging Dorn's elite warriors during the events of "The Lightning Tower"

Deception
- Alpharius/Omegon demonstrate themselves peerless in matters of deception and misinformation during the events of "Legion", to the point where it is never certain whether one is addressing the Primarch or not

Strategic acumen (large armies, fleets, sectors of space)
- Horus Lupercal has the most experience in the matter, and is the first choice of replacement for the Emperor
- Roboute Guilliman shows great efficiency in coordinating efforts throughout the Galaxy; he wields the largest known Legion
- Ferrus Manus spends an inordinate of time trying to _just find_ the Diasporex fleets
- Perturabo allows his personal feelings to interfere with how he handles his planets, leading to insurrections and poor returns of recruits as compared to the Ultramarines

"Tactical" acumen (smaller armies, fleets, individual planets)
- Lion El'Jonson attacks a larger fleet above Diamat and defeats it systematically
- Ferrus Manus engages in more daring fleet tactics than Fulgrim and reaps greater results against the Diasporex
- Rogal Dorn is an excellent builder of fortifications
- Perturabo is an excellent siege-master
- Perturabo decidedly bests Rogal Dorn during the events of the Iron Cage
- Fulgrim focuses too much on perfection while at the same time sometimes incurring inferior results (see above example versus Diasporex)
- Fulgrim allows his pride to endanger and sacrifice many of his troops for little more than ego-driven goals during the Cleansing of Laeran
- Rogal Dorn allows his emotions to color his conduct of the Iron Cage campaign, leading to unnecessary losses
- Ferrus Manus, Corax and Vulkan engage in unimaginative, costly frontal assaults against prepared fortifications during the Battle of Isstvan V and lose large numbers of Astartes
- Angron demonstrates little flair for tactics during the Battle of Isstvan III against the Loyalties (in contrast with the understanding he shows during the events of "After Desh'ea")

I'll try to think of some more.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

That was awesome! I didn't mean to imply my list is what should be built off of, it was only my opinion and what I was aiming to do was provide a structural pattern for others to better build on.

Which you just did beautifully! I hope to hear others opinions as well and more of yours too!


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> Manipulation (the ability and effeciency at influencing others)
> A. Alpharius
> B. Horus
> C. Rob
> ...


Personally, I would put Lorgar somewhere on that list, after all, he was the mastermind behind the Horus Heresy. Also, both before and after his fall, he was an expert at converting worlds to his faith, originally the God-Emperor, then Chaos. (ironically, he's responsible for the beginnings of the Imperial Cult and the Ecclesiarchy) And he was a master orator as well.

And, are you big Night Lords fan? Cause Kurze is on far more lists than Horus is, which I feel is quite wrong. All of the Primarchs are powerful individuals and Horus was said to be the best all-round of them. While other Primarchs may be superior to him in individual fields, Horus would be the man just underneath them on those lists. Horus was a master strategist and one of the most formidable warriors of the Imperium, which is why the Emperor chose him as Warmaster, the leader of the _entire_ military of the Imperium. Which is also why I also strongly disagree with this list,



> Macro (skill and effeciency at control of large armies and large systems)
> A. Rob
> B. Dorn
> C. Horus
> ...


It should have Horus and Guilliman tied at first or with Horus first and Guilliman second. They were the only two men, besides the Emperor, to have commanded the entire vast military force of the Imperium.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> They were the only two men, besides the Emperor, to have commanded the entire vast military force of the Imperium.


Being picky, but Rogal Dorn commanded the entire Loyalist military throughout the Horus Heresy. And Guilliman is never directly noted as having commanded the entire military force of the Imperium, he enacted the Codex Reforms - But he didn't seem to ever have complete and direct command over the entire military force like Horus and then Dorn did.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I enjoy the perspectives of others! So I will try to to explain my choices best I can while incorporating your choices as well!

And yes once more people post their responses ill rearrange the list entirely.

So as for why I picked kurze? Well I didn't feel I put him at the top more so then i picked anyone else. I think I only put him top at one vs one combat, I also gave him notable mentions in stealth, assassination, disruption tactics, since they are his legions forte; I also gave him a spot on top psyker list because of his numerous psyker feats in the fluff, though weird....such as being able to meld and move shadows, and blowing up a sector of a building with well...nothing.

As for horus...I agree horus is not top any of the categories but is a steady second, third, or fourth place in different categories. I tried to demonstrate this by showing that in all categories their is a primarch superior to him, but across multiple dimesions he has more well rounded rankings then others.

For tactical acumen (commanding, overseeing vast empires) I feel rob out does horus, but horus is a close. As for smaller scale control (tactical strategy) I feel the lion out does both, as does corax and numerous others.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The rankings will be entirely based on who had a book written about them last? 

Sanguineous defeated a greater daemon in single combat and held the Gate of Eternity against the demonic hordes. That's pretty badass on the scale of things. It depends if you think beating down another Primarch is easier or harder than beating down a Greater Daemon. 

It's all conjecture coloured by personal preference so you can never really rank them. If you have a hard on for Night Lords the Kruze will always be seen as the best at everything because he's awesome. If you like Blood Angels then you'll rank Sanguineous more highly. You can probably find enough fluff and back story to say that every primarch was totally the best at everything. 

Aramoro


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> The rankings will be entirely based on who had a book written about them last?
> 
> Sanguineous defeated a greater daemon in single combat and held the Gate of Eternity against the demonic hordes. That's pretty badass on the scale of things. It depends if you think beating down another Primarch is easier or harder than beating down a Greater Daemon.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, which is why the aim for this is to compose a ranking of multiple categories which each has multiple primarchs in. Those of each category are not ranked but are the best of that category...


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Being picky, but Rogal Dorn commanded the entire Loyalist military throughout the Horus Heresy. And Guilliman is never directly noted as having commanded the entire military force of the Imperium, he enacted the Codex Reforms - But he didn't seem to ever have complete and direct command over the entire military force like Horus and then Dorn did.


Actually, Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium after the HH ended, giving him command over all of the Imperium's armed force. And that was part of the reason he was able to enact the reforms he made. How do you think he was able to order his brother Primarchs to break up their Legions and form Chapters? Had he not held such a position, it's less likely that most of the Primarchs would have carried out the Chapter Foundings they did. Dorn, Russ and Vulkan opposed the splitting of the Legions, but I doubt the other Primarchs and leaders of the Legions were pleased by the order.

In regards to Dorn, I'm aware the Emperor made him Warmaster after Horus's betrayal, but it's very vague on what he did aside from commanding the Loyalist forces of the Sol System in the defense against Horus's forces.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually, Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium after the HH ended, giving him command over all of the Imperium's armed force.


I may just be a bit rusty, but what source claims he was made Lord Commander and thus had overall command of the entire Imperial Armed forces?



Akatsuki13 said:


> And that was part of the reason he was able to enact the reforms he made. How do you think he was able to order his brother Primarchs to break up their Legions and form Chapters?


It wasn't so much an order. All of the Primarchs (Dorn and Russ in particular) obviously didn't agree with the proposals but Guilliman seemed willing to push the Imperium to the brink of another civil war in order to enact his Codex. It even went as far as the Imperial Fists getting fired upon by the Imperial Navy until Dorn yielded. The other Primarchs gave in because they didn't want to push the Imperium into another civil war. But im not aware of any titular authority that Guilliman actually had over his brothers during this period.



Akatsuki13 said:


> In regards to Dorn, I'm aware the Emperor made him Warmaster after Horus's betrayal, but it's very vague on what he did aside from commanding the Loyalist forces of the Sol System in the defense against Horus's forces.


Indeed, but thats generally because we currently have next to no information on the Dark Ages of the Heresy. We know that Rogal Dorn ordered and planned the Loyalist expedition to Isstvan V and that he commanded the defence of the Sol System and Terra. I think its safe to assume he was the most senior Imperial individual throughout the Heresy militarily.


----------



## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

Since when did Conrad dismantle a Primarch and his guard? Forgive me if I havn't read this. But could someone enlighten me as how to how that happened?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He took down Dorn. Not exactly the best fighter of the group and he wasn't ready for a fight tbh. Lux just has a thing for curze.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I do not!

....And he didn't just take down dorn...he mauled him to an inch of his life and left him for dead...on top of this Kurze was stripped down and had nothing but his teeth and nails. Furthermore...dorn comments later on that he fears Kurze, truly fears him, that their is a madness that drifts about him.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He fears him because he has a legion behind him.... not so much the fact he took him down. Dorn wasn’t known as a fighter; if he had taken down Russ I would be impressed. lol. I would also like to point out that Dorn wasn’t exactly ready for the attack. Also, he isn't noted as being one of the best fighters by any of the actual best fighters who happened to be Russ, Angron, Sang, Horus and Corax.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I may just be a bit rusty, but what source claims he was made Lord Commander and thus had overall command of the entire Imperial Armed forces?...
> 
> ...Guilliman seemed willing to push the Imperium to the brink of another civil war in order to enact his Codex. It even went as far as the Imperial Fists getting fired upon by the Imperial Navy until Dorn yielded.


Guillimans role as lord commander does seem like one of those facts that emerged on lexi but I think it's mentioned in the 3rd index astartes, dont have it with me at the moment. However the fact that, as CotE pointed out, the imperial navy fired on the fists presumably at Guillimans behest certainly gives strength to the argument that Guilliman was in a strong position of authority at least over the non astartes forces. Whether the other legions were below him in rank is hard to nail down.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> He fears him because he has a legion behind him.... not so much the fact he took him down. Dorn wasn’t known as a fighter; if he had taken down Russ I would be impressed. lol. I would also like to point out that Dorn wasn’t exactly ready for the attack. Also, he isn't noted as being one of the best fighters by any of the actual best fighters who happened to be Russ, Angron, Sang, Horus and Corax.


But dorn even commented when discussing the things he fears, such as being unable to understand why Horus went to chaos. When he started to discuss Kurze, Dorn's eyes widened...as his jaw went slack and his pupils dilated like marmalade malaises, he began to describe Kurze.

“Konrad…truly a being beyond humanity, for not sanity or insanity is found anywhere within his temporal visage…only met with a haunted demeanor that echoes of a madness so profound your paradigm succumbs to the inherent drift of reality most mercurial…and it is there where Konrad took me as he clawed the very whiskers from my chinny chin chin.”


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Again..... he was more afraid of that kind of madness with the power of a legion behind it. Yeah, he beat seven shades of shit out of him but the prospect of Kurze controlling a legion was a hell of a lot scarier.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Again..... he was more afraid of that kind of madness with the power of a legion behind it. Yeah, he beat seven shades of shit out of him but the prospect of Kurze controlling a legion was a hell of a lot scarier.


But Kurze blew up the entire section of the building he was confined in, with only his MADNESS.

Also...you must keep in mind, Dorn was fully clad in wargear, and his honorguard were all terminator clad veterans. And all Kurze had was his naked body, his hands and teeth, thats all, versus terminators and a fully geared primarch


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

From what we have seen in the past...... even terminators are virtually useless against a primarch, all they would do is slow it down and I don't think ceramite armor does much against them. ALSO, you are making a lot of assumptions; I am sure there was something explosive on that base.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> From what we have seen in the past...... even terminators are virtually useless against a primarch, all they would do is slow it down and I don't think ceramite armor does much against them. ALSO, you are making a lot of assumptions; I am sure there was something explosive on that base.



It is outlined pretty clearly that the explosion of the confines he was held in, was very..."strange". No explosives, no detonations....all....madness.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wait...... didn't curze beat the shit out of Dorn before he locked up? And then killed a few IFs and ECs and escaped?


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Wait...... didn't curze beat the shit out of Dorn and then was locked up? And then killed a few IFs and ECs and escaped?


Kurze was brought in for trial...trial for his incalculable MADNESS as well as being charged of sedition and a sorcercer....and as Dorn came to speak with him prior of this charge, to counsel him...dorn was subjected to Kurze's MADNESS...Kurze then wrapped the shadows around him and flayed Dorn's honor guard. With his MADNESS explosions occured...truly a gift for weirdness.

It was only when they sent for him to be summoned for his trial did they find his confines had exploded and the honor guard was flayed upon the walls like paint.

But yes Dorn was beaten brutally prior to Kurze exploding the confines with his MADNESS


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Could you give me the..... madness boom excerpt? Sounds kinda..... odd.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Could you give me the..... madness boom excerpt? Sounds kinda..... odd.


It was very odd, I think that was the point, to shroud Kurze in weirdness even further, does he have powers unknown or not? all subjective like everything else in wh 40k! And in my current location I have no excerpts...none to give true light unto the infinite shadows of his MADNESS.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It just sounds more like it was poorly written. lol


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

But it was such a good story! Truly...madness incarnated into literature. It is why I ranked Kurze so high in one vs one combat...as his MADNESS is unknown and a wild card factor...blowing up sectors of buildings...wrapping shadows around himself...empowering himself to take down a fully geared primarch, and custodes with nothing but his naked pale figure....and his long slender fingers and vampiric like teeth....also why I ranked him on the psyker list...can make explosions with his MADNESS.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You can have a good story and shitty writing. lol


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Even Horus feared him I believe...when Horus spoke about how he had trained all the primarchs in the arts in war and combat, that only three he could not defeat...Sang, Russ, and (the thrid I do not recall who he mentioned on his list)....BUT it is also stated that Kurze is the only one he didn't train at all....for he was self trained...wild...shrouded in MADNESS.

Gameworkshops hint at Kurze being truly MAD at combat? WHo can say....but I subjectively interpret it as so...


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe it was Angron. Obviously though sang and Russ didn't need much in the way of training. Also it could have been that it was Fulgrim that trained Cruze and not Horus that stopped Horus from actually training Cruze. lol


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think it was Angron he said as the three he could not best in combat...I could be mistaken...but I remember when reading it I thought "wow so horus bested Angron in combat"...which would imply to me angron wasn't one of the three he said he was unable to best in combat.

As for Kurze...it makes sense now why Fulgrim fell to chaos...if he did train Kurze in combat which I still postulate he did not due to Horus saying along the lines of "Kurze being the only one not trained by him while every other primarch was, due to him being raised entirely alone and training himself"

BUT IF kurze was trained by fulgim, then it was kurze's latent MADNESS that made holes in Fulgrims soul, just as he did to Dorn from his mere naked presence...and that is how chaos penetrated fulgrim...


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

:shok:...... You like this speculation with little to no proof thing don’t ya?


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> :shok:...... You like this speculation with little to no proof thing don’t ya?


All of wh40k is speculation...every bit....

For example no primarch is objectively dead...

Kurze? Never confirmed just a cut of vid log, and heresay from some that he died...but was he ever found or truly confirmed? No...MADNESS sustains him in the halo stars.

Ferrus?....hes on mars...waiting...

Fulgrim...hes trapped in the daemon waiting for his father to rescue him

Horus?...he was melded with the emeperor upon death and both bled into the warp together...

Sang?...stil alive hidden away.

Rob? In stais healing.

And so forth..


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ferrus got his fucking head cut off! Its safe to assume the SOB is toast. Apart from the head removal thing, same goes for sang and Horus. We have proof. Scientifically speaking Guilliman is boned if you take him out of stasis, no speculation there. Even the Night Lords say he is dead so it is safe to assume he is...... well dead.


----------



## orfex (Aug 31, 2009)

When you rank the Primarchs based on single combat you failed to mention that Guilliman killed Alpharius or Omegron.
Also Horus fought the Emperor one on one and wounded him after killing Sang. That would make him number one for me.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

We have no actual reason to believe guilly killer either one of them, even the Smurfs aren’t sure if guilly killed either of them. Horus took tweety down with the help of chaos so I don’t really count that.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

ferus being decapitated is suspect...i believe fulgrim failed to kill him, thus as punishment for his failure fulgrim allowed the daemon to possess him. ferrus is wounded resting in mars..,waiting...

as for horus...he was buffed by chaos vs sang and emp


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ahhhhh.......


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Lux said:


> ferus being decapitated is suspect...i believe fulgrim failed to kill him, thus as punishment for his failure fulgrim allowed the daemon to possess him. ferrus is wounded resting in mars..,waiting...


Funny........... Well at least you didn't use the word "madness" this time.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I would put another category of perhaps "knowledge seeking primarchs.

Some of these I think would be Magnus and his forbidden lores including his "Book of Magnus." I would also say that in some ways Lion El Johnson was a primarch fond of knowledge with all the books he collected from the knightly orders. Peturabo was known as a technological genius who was second to none. After the heresy his legion went pretty extreme in obtaining and constructing stuff from the warp and the obliterator virus. I would even go as far as saying that Ferrus Manus was pretty smart as he was an expert at mechanizing shit. And Angron, damn that guy is so smart he invented charging into a fortress and getting astartes die so fast that it compares to the speed a Irish Drunk can deal with a magarita.

Anyway, am I missing anymore of the "smart" primarchs.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> The rankings will be entirely based on who had a book written about them last?


As for me, I started my list with a chronological order in mind, racking and stacking incidents as I recalled them. I got tired around the time of the Battle of Isstvan V. Yeah, obviously that list can be mitigated as more examples are brought up. 

It's all conjecture coloured by personal preference so you can never really rank them.[/QUOTE]
There are also specific instances, though, that are quantifiable.



shas'o Thraka said:


> Since when did Conrad dismantle a Primarch and his guard? Forgive me if I havn't read this. But could someone enlighten me as how to how that happened?


It didn't happen like that, though.

Per the Index Astartes series, Conrad Kurze was confronted by Rogal Dorn after Fulgrim revealed to him that the Night Haunter had visions of the Imperium falling into civil war. Dorn railed at him and Curze snapped and attacked him. He was found gravely injured, unconscious, with great claw-like gouges throughout his body.

Kurze was subsequently imprisoned, but as described in "The Dark King", it was a formal thing mostly. He had access to his Equerry, and when he decided he wasn't going to have much of sitting around any longer he ordered for his armor to be brought to him. Subsequently, he tore apart the retinue of Fists engaged with guarding him and escaped. After this, he blew up Nostramo and became a rebel.

Dorn didn't fear Kurze because of his Legion. He feared him because he was the first to hurt him, because of what he represented.



Lux said:


> But Kurze blew up the entire section of the building he was confined in, with only his MADNESS.


If you're talking about his escape in "The Dark King", he uses some sort of psychic power to blow up the _lum strips_ lighting his room and the adjacent ones. Not the rooms themselves, and certainly not a section of a building (that I recall; I'll double-check).



> Also...you must keep in mind, Dorn was fully clad in wargear, and his honorguard were all terminator clad veterans. And all Kurze had was his naked body, his hands and teeth, thats all, versus terminators and a fully geared primarch


If you're talking about when he injured Dorn, in the Index Astartes he is described as being found in his robes. And their altercation was a private matter, not attended by others.



Lux said:


> ferus being decapitated is suspect...i believe fulgrim failed to kill him, thus as punishment for his failure fulgrim allowed the daemon to possess him. ferrus is wounded resting in mars..,waiting...


"Fulgrim" describes Ferrus Manus as being decapitated. It also shows Fulgrim showing Ferrus' decomposing head to Horus. I'm going to take that as pretty "final".



> as for horus...he was buffed by chaos vs sang and emp


Actually, Horus' dead carcass was dragged away to the Eye of Terror by Abaddon. Not only was he _dead dead,_ but when attempts were made to _clone him,_ Abaddon and the Black Legion ensured _they_ were made dead as well.

Horus is not only dead as doornails, his very _corpse_ is now destroyed, seeing as how Abaddon and his buddies didn't want any of that coming back. :grin:


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Horus waits...purified by his father....he waits in the warp hand in hand with him, for the day they are reborn as one.

As for ferrus...he is on mars...he was cloned prior to his death...even the rumors say he is on mars.

Kurze was never killed, all imperial heresay and nightlord pureposefully mispread information...he wanders beyond the limits of the galaxy, in his incalculable MADNESS...drifting in a reality whereno suffering exist.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Lux said:


> Horus waits...purified by his father....he waits in the warp hand in hand with him, for the day they are reborn as one.


Maybe. :grin:



> As for ferrus...he is on mars...he was cloned prior to his death...even the rumors say he is on mars.


Even the Iron Hands vehemently deny the rumors. Using that logic, any one of the Primarchs could have been cloned, though.



> Kurze was never killed, all imperial heresay and nightlord pureposefully mispread information...he wanders beyond the limits of the galaxy, in his incalculable MADNESS...drifting in a reality whereno suffering exist.


"Soul Hunter" has eyewitnesses who have nothing to do with the Imperium watching Kurze die and his head being trotted off by an assassin.

Kurze is dead as dead can be.


----------



## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> As for ferrus...he is on mars...he was cloned prior to his death...even the rumors say he is on mars.


By Crom! "Fulgrim" depicts the death of Ferrus Manus by Fulgrim's hand with much detail and makes the fate of Ferrus Manus unquestionable - he is dead.

Since "Fulgrim" is an official book written by McNeill and published by the Black Library, that means the events are official canon. That's it. Nothing to debate here.


----------

