# The 2 missing legions.



## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

What do we know about them?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There are many threads on this, the best of which can be found in the FAQ sticky.

But in a nutshell.
- Both their primarchs reunited with the Emperor
- Both deleted from Imperial Records for separate tragedies
- Both now forbidden to be discussed
- One at least was certainly sanctioned, and it's very, very likely that it was Russ and his Wolves that carried out the sanction, if not both. 

Beyond various other small mostly cryptic mentions in the various Horus Heresy books, not alot more.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

According to my friend, both of the Legions were incorporated into the Ultramarines which explains the size of the Ultramarines legion (250,000 in the time of the Heresy, I think). Apparently the two primarchs were killed or declared excommunicate tratoris by the Imperium of Man and haven't been seen.. And it's forbidden to talk about them, not to mention that a lot of primarchs seem quite.. Hurt when they get mentioned.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Ultramarines amalgamation theory is nothing more than rumours, discussed as such by Argel Tal and his sergeants. Guillimans numbers are easily explainable by having a small empire to recruit from and his legendary efficiency and organisation skills.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

We know that besides the which primarchs is the best at close quarters combat this ranks as high in the most redundant threads on this board.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Silens said:


> According to my friend, both of the Legions were incorporated into the Ultramarines which explains the size of the Ultramarines legion (250,000 in the time of the Heresy, I think). Apparently the two primarchs were killed or declared excommunicate tratoris by the Imperium of Man and haven't been seen.. And it's forbidden to talk about them, not to mention that a lot of primarchs seem quite.. Hurt when they get mentioned.


I am moderatly certain that when Lorgar was speaking to Magnus in "the first heretic" that Magnus said that the Word Bearers numbers were bolstered after it happened, so the Word Bearers also gained gene seed from the expunged legions. Although how this ties in with the zealotry gene that is supposedly within the word bearers I do not know.


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## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> We know that besides the which primarchs is the best at close quarters combat this ranks as high in the most redundant threads on this board.



Sorry, I'm pretty new to this forum. I'll look around more next time.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Now I feel like an asshole. Sorry bro, ask away. Don't look around man just read the books. The been teasing the fluff about what really happened in a couple books now with First Heretic being the most. Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns give a look at who may have been responsibly largely about who was responsible. So far what we've gleaned is:


At some point During the Great Crusade 2 primarchs either separately or more likely together did something to warrant the Emperor's "ultimate sanction." We don't know EXACTLY what that is but we know whatever it is it erases legions and forbids mention of said event and the legion.

It's hinted that Lorgar and Gulliman's legion "swelled" after this event "mysteriously." I believe that the gene seed may have been harvested from the sanctioned legions but again this is speculation. 


We know that whatever happened it was on the Emperor's orders so he has some kind of failsafe against his sons going off the reservation. Obviously this wasn't that useful with the rebellion with the numbers that turned. Whatever happened, it's been pretty hardcore hinted that they no longer exist, like Horus.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Both their events were described as "tragic." 

So whatever fates befell them were hinted as separate occurrences as far as I can tell.

Keep in mind most of what we know is vague fluff references and guesswork.


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## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

So if both of these legions were sanctioned by the emperor then why is Horus and his rebellion so surprising to all of the loyalist primarchs?


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Wuzntlistening said:


> So if both of these legions were sanctioned by the emperor then why is Horus and his rebellion so surprising to all of the loyalist primarchs?


Well Horus was the Emperor's chosen, this was two hundred years (roughly) after those events and people probably thought we were above this thing. 

We do not know the origional reasons for the two primarch sanctions, maybe all it took for them to get eradicated was them doing an angron saying "hey i dont wanna join your damned crusade"

Basically maybe noone had actually tried to overthrow the Emperor before, and definitly noone had done it with so many legions and with such brutal efficiency. This was not just a primarch going rogue, this was a full blown civil war, and this was Horus, hes pretty much the big Es favorite, its the last thing people would expect, I mean, if it was angron who had gone against the Emperor that would be believeable and far far more plausible. But noone would suspect Horus of even considering something like this. 

This is also because everyone was blind to chaos and its influence. Aside from the big E that is.


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

Whatever happened, it is described in *Deliverance Lost*, as having occurred prior to the reuniting of Corax with the Emperor.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Wuzntlistening said:


> So if both of these legions were sanctioned by the emperor then why is Horus and his rebellion so surprising to all of the loyalist primarchs?


This may be because these two past legions may not have been involved within any kind of rebellion in the first place. It was always said that no primarch can rebel against the the big E. Also remember the legions act just as the government does, they tell the public very very little, just look at SM recruitment, most chapters recruit from a feral population that sees them as almost godlike. 

Look at it this way if you were told by the government that tomorrow said country will be dropping nukes on you, would lose your mind and the public would go nutz and begin to panic. Same case here the HH was in many ways held as a secret until there was just no other way to hide it.

The big E and his SM wanted to be seen as flawless and therfore that was the image that was painted to the public, but the truth is they themselves are not flawless and are still human, ergo making human mistakes like anyone else. This could have even been the case with missing legions, those pirmarchs may have just made some mistakes that had to be dealt with dearly.

Alas I don't think GW will ever reveal the missing two, even though it has become such a stagnant mystery.


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

TheSpore said:


> The big E and his SM wanted to be seen as flawless and therfore that was the image that was painted to the public, but the truth is they themselves are not flawless and are still human, ergo making human mistakes like anyone else. This could have even been the case with missing legions, those pirmarchs may have just made some mistakes that had to be dealt with dearly.


I may be misreading your interpretation here but you are making the situation sound like it was ego and nothing else. Do you equate the same logic to the reasons to restrict knowledge regarding Chaos from the general 60 jillion people in the Imperium? Or do you think that it might be something a little less vain?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

No, they didn't want to be seen as flawless. They were flawless,genetically. A huge problem was mentally. Physically there weren't many threats in the universe that could stand against the Emperor and his primarchs. Sadly however, and this may be the case with the lost (missng implies they don't know where they were and they do) primarchs.If you look at Horus's fall it was a mental breakdown of his faith and trust in his father bolstered by his own amibition. Konrad Curze,Lion El'Johnson, and Angron all suffered from behavioral disorders of their own due to their upbringing. The genetic perfection bled into them and even their massive capacity to take in knowledge was limited in one aspect. I really do believe that the only weakness the primarchs had was their mental strength which is drastically weaker than a demigod should have:

Conrad Kurze: His experiance makes sense if he were a normal man to turn out that way,but you would expect someone of his breeding to be able to rise above the horrors he saw. Instead he reacted human and let his environment make him what he was, where a god would be transcedental to his environment.

Horus: Instead of being resolute in his mission of prosecuting his fathers mission, he let feelings of resentment and abandonment (as a human child would) open a mental wound which Chaos found and entered. The Gods then offered to close this wound off with his ambition (another human flaw). 


You can do this with almost all of them. The only thing superhuman about the primarchs is their physical capablities. They all should amazing fraility when it came to mental rigors of war, some breaking down like normal soldiers would but with obvious dire consequences given their position. The glory of the primarchs is a myth, I believe the SM's of today like Logan Grimnar, Helbrecht,Calgar,Azrael,and the other chapter masters to be waaaaaay more mentally sound and capable. Even the traitors are better off without them mostly. The heresy series has shown me that while physically superior it doesn't equate to a mental toughness which almost none of the primarchs had. Good riddance to bad trash. The toughest characters in the heresy series so far in my opinion are Eristede Kell and his execution squad who came closer to killing Horus while the rest of the Sm's and primarchs cried and raged impotently. The Mechanicus priests who stayed loyal even when abbandoned and destroyed themselves rather than let their innovations fall to traitors. I'd say Sanguinius, Russ,and the Khan definitely to varying degrees behaved like warriors mostly. Screw Gulliman.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cegorach said:


> I am moderatly certain that when Lorgar was speaking to Magnus in "the first heretic" that Magnus said that the Word Bearers numbers were bolstered after it happened, so the Word Bearers also gained gene seed from the expunged legions. Although how this ties in with the zealotry gene that is supposedly within the word bearers I do not know.


It was never rumoured that the Word Bearers took any Astartes from the II or XI Legions. The reason for the increase from roughly 100,000 to 150,000 Word Bearers between Monarchia and the Heresy was simply a recruitment drive as dictated by Chaos - who claimed Lorgar would need more warriors by the time the Heresy erupted.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

If the Ultramarines did incorporate SM from the lost legions, you'd think their apothecarions in 40k would have noticed it. At a minimum, the Magos Biologis to whom they tithe geneseed would be saying "hey, where did you get this nonstandard geneseed from?"


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)




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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> If the Ultramarines did incorporate SM from the lost legions, you'd think their apothecarions in 40k would have noticed it. At a minimum, the Magos Biologis to whom they tithe geneseed would be saying "hey, where did you get this nonstandard geneseed from?"


Precisely. 

The rumours of the XIII absorbing elements of the II and XI are almost certainly false. The sheer size of the XIII is easily explained by the efficient organisational structure of Ultramar.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Wuzntlistening said:


> So if both of these legions were sanctioned by the emperor then why is Horus and his rebellion so surprising to all of the loyalist primarchs?



Its in fact a good question, one of the cleverer ones on this topic. And shame on anyone who seeks to censure new contributors on this forum (regardless if, yes, the topic has been done before).

My vote for II and XI USED TO BE that they demonstrated a clear affinity/knowledge of the Warp, or maybe the Chaos Gods, so the Emperor snuffed the Primarchs and their ideas before they got out. Or similarly, they knew about some deal the E made with the Chaos gods (if that in fact happened).

My vote NOW for why the E censured the 2 Lost Ones (I assume for the sake of simplicity that both Primarch had similar endings), is that they simply did not want any part of the Great Crusade. One possible theory is that they were raised by aliens, developed an affinity for them, the Big E found them, explained to them his plans for a human-dominated Galaxy, and asked them as a first act to slaughter their foul xeno friends. Out of compassion and love they said 'no, we can coexist, but I also love you Big E, we are confused' . The Emperor, conflicted yet resolute, sent in the Wolves and ordered the bombardment of the Primarchs' home worlds, and butchered the filthy pacifist Primarchs, being useless husks of humanity not fulfilling the purpose for which they were bred.

Of course the story of the 2 Lost Ones has a major flaw that no-one I know has addressed - why do none of the Primarchs discuss it? Its safe to say at least 1, or more, traitor Primarchs knew the facts surrounding the censure - why was the incident never raised as an example of how 'bad' the E was, in order to sway other Primarchs and/or populations? 

Realistically, its because GW/BL dont want to fill in the gaps for obvious reasons (mystery is good), but developing a logical reason as to why NOONE ever mentions it despite knowing about it would be interesting. Happy to hear theories on this one.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I always liked to think that one of them landed on a Craftworld, I doubt this is what happened but I think it would make for an interesting storyline none the less.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I have it on good authority that one of the missing primarchs was a huge Daniel O Donnell fan, and the big E just couldn't let that slide!!!


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

On a serious note folks, the other two primarchs could have had genetic defects or have been complete nut jobs, when Dorn is chatting with Malcador, cant remember which book/audio c.d he says words to the effect of if I had two more Legions life would be easier, and Malcador says words like dont even wish such a thing, obviously some tragedy befell these two and there legions, and if Dorn was wishing he had them maybe they still exist, perhaps locked away somewhere and they may not have been sanctioned in the traditional sense, good old Russ could have been sent in on mercy killing. 

Look at the Thousand Sons a similar faith may have befallen the other two primarchs having been genetically or mentally unstable. From what Dorn implies I'm going to suggest that what ever happened, these guys where at least re-united with there legions before their doom over took them and one of them may be the basis for the Legion of the Damned.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> and one of them may be the basis for the Legion of the Damned.


correct me if im wrong but i belive that the fire hawks/lords (can't quite remember name) are the legion of the damned, but an interesting theory none the less


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oldman78 said:


> On a serious note folks, the other two primarchs could have had genetic defects or have been complete nut jobs, when Dorn is chatting with Malcador, cant remember which book/audio c.d he says words to the effect of if I had two more Legions life would be easier, and Malcador says words like dont even wish such a thing, obviously some tragedy befell these two and there legions, and if Dorn was wishing he had them maybe they still exist, perhaps locked away somewhere and they may not have been sanctioned in the traditional sense, good old Russ could have been sent in on mercy killing.
> 
> Look at the Thousand Sons a similar faith may have befallen the other two primarchs having been genetically or mentally unstable. From what Dorn implies I'm going to suggest that what ever happened, these guys where at least re-united with there legions before their doom over took them and one of them may be the basis for the Legion of the Damned.


Going off the context to me and off Dorns demeanour at the time, I would say Dorn is more musing than anything, in an almost regretful way. To me it all points to Dorn wishing he had two more legions regretfully, as in they are long gone by that point. Malcador then stops him from musing any further. 



Kale Hellas said:


> correct me if im wrong but i belive that the fire hawks/lords (can't quite remember name) are the legion of the damned, but an interesting theory none the less


You are correct.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

What I don't understand, is why the Oath to never mention the two lost brothers, isn't just broken and openly talked about after the Heresy breaks out? 

The Traitor Primarchs were most certainly condemned to death, and so why weren't they discussing their two fallen brothers? Seems strange there. They are already gone in the Imperium's eyes so why would they have qualms about discussing this? 

Out of respect? Although, I can't imagine the likes of Angron and Mortarion, or even Perturabo having any sort of respect.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> I always liked to think that one of them landed on a Craftworld, I doubt this is what happened but I think it would make for an interesting storyline none the less.


Beat me to it Djinn!

Also, does it ever state they were killed or destroyed? They could have just turned their backs on the big E and in a hissy fit he had all trace of them removed, a bit like the egyptians did with the statues of out of favor past rulers.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

i personally think if neither loyalist nor traitor primarchs talked about them maybe the two just F$%%ed up and went the way of the dinosaurs, and the primarch's never new them and the emperor made them make the oath after informing them because it broke his heart to know he'd never know his sons, 


or my personal favourite, they weren't lost and the emperor killed them during adolescence because they turned into scene kids.


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## infernalcaretaker (Nov 12, 2008)

Kale Hellas said:


> correct me if im wrong but i belive that the fire hawks/lords (can't quite remember name) are the legion of the damned, but an interesting theory none the less





Angel of Blood said:


> You are correct.


Was this ever _CONFIRMED?_ I thought it was assumed speculation?

Maybe we will find out in the Legion of the Damned Book later this year... ¬¬


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah but in all seriousness they probably were talked about. The Emperor couldn't stop his sons from worshipping Gods. I doubt that none of the Astartes in any of the Legions spoke about it, especially in Legions like the Alpha Legion where they were trained to question.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

infernalcaretaker said:


> Was this ever _CONFIRMED?_ I thought it was assumed speculation?
> 
> Maybe we will find out in the Legion of the Damned Book later this year... ¬¬


one of the first times the legion of the damned appeared they left a firehawk banner behind stuck in the earth, so unless they just wanted to mind fuck people i dare say they where fire hawks


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Whilst Games Workshop have never outright said "Yes, the Fire Hawks are the Legion of the Damned" they have given numerous, numerous indications and blatant clues to this being the case. The Legion of the Damned Index Astartes article starts off my detailing the events of the Fire Hawks. The Legion also left behind a space coffin of sorts that was discovered to be a Fire Hawk Astartes.

So you know though, the upcoming book will not satisfy your desire to explore the Legion at all


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Legion also left behind a space coffin of sorts that was discovered to be a Fire Hawk Astartes.


Maybe their way of saying; "the Fire Hawks are dead, we have taken their place" ? 

Might it be so that the event that made the Fire Hawks perish caused one of the Lost Legions to reappear as the Legion of the Damned? Can it be so that the lost legions in some way cause a alien invasion? Did their deeds awaken the Necrons? Or did they get lost in the Webway or some where else? What about the supernatural inhabitants of the Ghoulstars? 

Just throwing out ideas here


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## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

Oldman78 said:


> On a serious note folks, the other two primarchs could have had genetic defects or have been complete nut jobs,



You mean Angron and some of his brothers aren't complete nut jobs?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

An interesting quote I dug up from the "Thousand Sons" book while I was looking for another quote.

"With every passing year, more and more of our warriors would succumb to the flesh change...We learned how to keep the worst of the flesh change at bay, but more and more of us were falling prey to it and the voices of our persecutors were growing more strident. There was even talk of_ disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history."_ Italics mine.

Sounds familiar, no?


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## zacktheRipper (Jan 23, 2012)

Ugh, the two lost Legions always bugs me. Not because of the talking about it, I love the speculation, but the fact that GW hasn't released ANYTHING ELSE on the subject matter. I love 40k fluff, and it really pisses me off that they have left so many awesome avenues opened and unattended.

Anyways, all the theories put forward I'd agree with. Lol the one about the Craftworld is charming x).


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Wuzntlistening said:


> You mean Angron and some of his brothers aren't complete nut jobs?


By complete nut jobs I mean completely mindless like base animals and had to put down like rabid dogs or again the whole Daniel O Donnell record collection


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## Hrolleif (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't know if I'd ever want this mystery explained. On one hand having it explained would be amazing (that first feeling of "Oh! Thats what happened!), on the other that mystery and the insanity from trying to piece it all together is kind of fun.


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