# Blood Ravens - Origins?



## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

So I've been doing some research on the Blood Ravens (the Space Marine chapter featured in the Dawn of War series). It seems that they have somehow lost track of their history, in that they do not recall who their primarch was, or when/how their chapter was founded. 

Are there any theories as to which one it was? Is it more or less assumed that it was one of the 'missing' Primarchs? That wouldn't make much sense to me, as the 'missing' Primarchs were missing before the Heresy, and therefore before the Codex Astartes, so they must have been organized into _somebody_'s legion at that time... I know there's no official word, but I'm curious what sorts of ideas people have had on this in the past. Thanks!


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I think it was either confirmed or widely popular belief that they were thousand sons who were elsewhere when the thousand sons became traitor, and so did not know about it.

It's backed up by the fact they have an abnormally large amount of psykers, and that the 'inner circle' who lead the blood ravens are so secretive.
hope this helps!


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

all the evidence is slowly pointing that way


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

Doubleposted somehow, my bad.


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

I hadn't heard that theory before, but it makes a lot of sense!

Do you suppose they still have ties to the 1kSons through their little 'inner circle'?

Are they unwitting pawns in Tzeentch (pronounced Achoo?)'s master plan?

This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Well, I wouldn't know, but that sounds like an interesting theory. 

There isn't (as far as I know) anything to support it...The blood ravens take orders from the inner circle, and as far as I know they have all acted upon what is best for the Imperium. I don't know what Tzeentchs master plan is, but I doubt it personally. 

No one knows who the inner circle are though except for the people in it (i think) so maybe the secrecy is because of corruption with tzeentch. On the other hand, it may be simply because the inner circle know about their past, so hide themselves in some form of redemption and search for a way to redeem themselves (just some ideas on what you said  )

There was also a theory from the DoW series were that apostle guy from word bearers calls the blood ravens 'brother' in a taunting tone. Everyone seemed to think this links them to th eword beaers, but I honestly think thats bullshit, and he was simply refering to the fact they were both adeptus astartes, and such, used to be 'brothers'.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> Well, I wouldn't know, but that sounds like an interesting theory.


Aye, most implications/hints seem to point that they are somehow descended from the Thousand Sons. There is even a fairly obvious hint in the Heresy novel _A Thousand Sons_.



Ultra111 said:


> I don't know what Tzeentchs master plan is


He doesn't have a master plan. 



Ultra111 said:


> There was also a theory from the DoW series were that apostle guy from word bearers calls the blood angles 'brother' in a taunting tone. Everyone seemed to think this links them to th eword beaers, but I honestly think thats bullshit, and he was simply refering to the fact they were both adeptus astartes, and such, used to be 'brothers'.


Indeed, I thought that was a given. I mean Astartes from different legions always referred to each other as 'Brother' during the Great Crusade for example. It was merely a mockery/taunt as you said.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

As Child-of-the-Emperor has said, there are some pretty hefty hints in the new HH book, A Thousand Sons. 
I think there's also a point in one of the books where a Blood Raven meets Ahriman and there is a conversation about their possible origins, not sure what book though as I haven't read it.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Ehm well in dow games blood angels are really worried about their origins, in the sense that they are worried someone will find it out, so that leads me to think they had some heretic past, but its all behind them now.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I presume you mean Blood Ravens not Blood Angels :grin:


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## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

It's in dow Tempest that they meet Ahriman.


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

aye, theyre all hush hush because theyve got a bit of a dark angel complex about their oath breaking, scum sucking, chaos humping, thousand sons of a bitch ex-brethren

or so it seems anyway.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

They found some hush hush information concerning the origins of the chapter on kronos thule told gabriel angelos and he order the records to be expunged suggesting a slightly deviant origin. The BRs also find the body of a red pre heresy SM in a libary on Rahes paradise (a BR recruiting world), and the eldar farseer told them that he was part of a group who helped the eldar put a psykic seal on some necrons. the only red pre heresy legions were the 1k sons and the blood angels who detests psykers. Ahzek ahriman talks to a BR librarian and tells him of their kinship. There are numerous subtle hints in a thousand sons concering the raven and the blood raven. There also red like the PHH 1k sons and the inquisition keeps a close tie with them (to keep watch?) especially the GKs (who also are rumoured to have a slightly deviant origin) 

And everything is part of tzeentch's master plan....


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## WarMaster Sindr (Jun 23, 2010)

*Blood Ravens Orgins*

I would like to say my opinion that they were either Thousand Sons or Black Legion. Because i read the history of Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus or more known as Black Legion i came up with two hypothisis that either the blood Ravens are Thousand Sons Because by some Miricale the Rubric Spell didnt affect them or mabye Magnus Himself set aside a group erased their memories of himself and gave them to the Imperium before he Joined Chaos, And the Black Legion sent its loyalist forces to the Drop Zone Slaughter on Isstan 5 and they some how escaped and the Inquistion kept them and learned of Horus Betytral and renamed them and brainwashed all the members but mabye a few mabye dreadnoughts memories wernt affected they remebered told their brothers and its kept their highest secret kinda like How the Dark Angels keep a traitor Dark Angel in the Bottom of the fortress monastray on their base just therioes 

ps sorry for the poor grammer not the best speller

pss. 
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## WarMaster Sindr (Jun 23, 2010)

Barnster said:


> They found some hush hush information concerning the origins of the chapter on kronos thule told gabriel angelos and he order the records to be expunged suggesting a slightly deviant origin. The BRs also find the body of a red pre heresy SM in a libary on Rahes paradise (a BR recruiting world), and the eldar farseer told them that he was part of a group who helped the eldar put a psykic seal on some necrons. the only red pre heresy legions were the 1k sons and the blood angels who detests psykers. Ahzek ahriman talks to a BR librarian and tells him of their kinship. There are numerous subtle hints in a thousand sons concering the raven and the blood raven. There also red like the PHH 1k sons and the inquisition keeps a close tie with them (to keep watch?) especially the GKs (who also are rumoured to have a slightly deviant origin)
> 
> And everything is part of tzeentch's master plan....


I also read the book my friend but it says their colors were deeper red and they kept quiet when they fought and already had the badge of the Blood Ravens but its about necrons awaking so no pme truly knows


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

up until now i presumed they were a mix of blood angels and something else but the thousand sons....and i must be dumb as hell cos i missed the hints in thousand sons.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I got the impression though from Dark Crusade, that they had ties somewhere to the Word Bearers...?


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## dedredhed (Jun 22, 2010)

The Blood Ravens' dark secret may be that they have descended not from one of the Loyalist First Founding Chapters but from the Thousand Sons Chaos Marine Legion, as before the Horus Heresy the Thousand Sons may have copied and modified their gene-seed and left the new gene-seed on Mars for the Adeptus Mechanicus tech-priests to use to create new Space Marine Chapters. This would mean that the Blood Ravens Chapter is not a Successor Chapter but is technically one of the First Founding Chapters, though with a dark past.


During Dawn of War 2, banter between Blood Ravens Thaddeus, Cyrus, Tarkus and Avitus mentions that Davian Thule found some recordings relating to the founding of the Chapter on Kronus. He was the only one to have seen them, and destroyed them immediately after. Tarkus notes this as being a turning point marking a significant change in the Captain's personality, now grimmer and more distant than he once was. One could guess that whatever recording Thule found established the Blood Ravens as being related to one of the Traitor Legions. Later in the game, Avitus mentions the fact that the Blood Ravens have forgotten the name of their Primarch and this could not have been an accident, it had to be done on purpose to hide "a terrible truth".


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

The thing is though that the Thousand Son gene seed is notouriously unstable and causes mutation, whereas... The Blood Ravens geneseed is noted as being one of the more perfect ones... the only odity being that the brain implant gives them perfect recal, but stops them from having R.E.M sleep. 

If the Thousand Sons could alter there gene seed enough to fix its floors, they'd have done it to themselves too wouldn't have they?


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## dedredhed (Jun 22, 2010)

GrizBe said:


> The thing is though that the Thousand Son gene seed is notouriously unstable and causes mutation, whereas... The Blood Ravens geneseed is noted as being one of the more perfect ones... the only odity being that the brain implant gives them perfect recal, but stops them from having R.E.M sleep.
> 
> If the Thousand Sons could alter there gene seed enough to fix its floors, they'd have done it to themselves too wouldn't have they?


Hmmm...perhaps...maybe they were a sort of test rat, to say?


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Two things I don't understand about the 1ksons hypothesis. The Blood Ravens, like all Codex chapters, are required to tithe 10% of their geneseed to Mars. Has no-one in the mechanicus ever put a sample under a microscope and said 'Hm, looks like Magnus to me'.

Or if they no longer have records of the traitor geneseed, you'd think they would at least know it is not one of the nine loyalist geneseeds.

Secondly - yes, the Rubric of Ahriman. If the Blood Ravens were sons of Magnus then they'd be dust now.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> If the Thousand Sons could alter there gene seed enough to fix its floors, they'd have done it to themselves too wouldn't have they?


Well they did to an extent. Magnus bargained with Tzeentch in order to stabilise his Legion's Geneseed and therefore save them from the Fleshchange. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it did stabilise the Geneseed until it came into contact with mass amounts of warp energy.



Azezel said:


> Two things I don't understand about the 1ksons hypothesis. The Blood Ravens, like all Codex chapters, are required to tithe 10% of their geneseed to Mars. Has no-one in the mechanicus ever put a sample under a microscope and said 'Hm, looks like Magnus to me'.
> 
> Or if they no longer have records of the traitor geneseed, you'd think they would at least know it is not one of the nine loyalist geneseeds.


The problem sometimes though is that the Geneseed has mutated far beyond its original aspect and is thus indescribable and unrecognisable as the same Geneseed that the First Founding Legions/Chapters bear.



Azezel said:


> Secondly - yes, the Rubric of Ahriman. If the Blood Ravens were sons of Magnus then they'd be dust now.


One possible explanation could be that the Blood Ravens may have been founded post-Rubric, but still using the XV Legion's Geneseed. Thus would have plausably been unaffected by the Rubric of Ahriman.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

The other thing about The Thousand Sons theory, is that we know the Blood Ravens actively recruited Psykers, rather then them mutating into one. The TS mutated into psykers because of Magnus geneseed, BR's have alot of Psykers as they recruited and turned them into space marines. Thats in the official fluff... 

As said, TS geneseed caused mutations, BR geneseed is reatively pure. 

It defiantely seems though that they may have ties to the Traitor legions in some way... theres little reason otherwise that Thule would have destroyed the information he found about the chapters history, plus explains why a relatively young chapter seems to have ties and mentions stretching back to the great crusades.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One possible explanation could be that the Blood Ravens may have been founded post-Rubric, but still using the XV Legion's Geneseed. Thus would have plausably been unaffected by the Rubric of Ahriman.


I was under the impression that the legions that were excommunicated had their geneseed reserves destroyed? That could account for Mars not recognizing them, as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cruor99 said:


> I was under the impression that the legions that were excommunicated had their geneseed reserves destroyed? That could account for Mars not recognizing them, as well.


I think that even the Geneseed of the Traitor Legions is still securely maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus. I'll have to double check that though.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> The thing is though that the Thousand Son gene seed is notouriously unstable and causes mutation, whereas... The Blood Ravens geneseed is noted as being one of the more perfect ones... the only odity being that the brain implant gives them perfect recal, but stops them from having R.E.M sleep.
> 
> If the Thousand Sons could alter there gene seed enough to fix its floors, they'd have done it to themselves too wouldn't have they?


The blood ravens gene seed is actully very unstable and they are known to mutate as we seen in the dawn of war series when one of the marines (cant remember his name) shows his hand which just suddenly mutated to Angelos, and he is told he knows what to do and cover it up.

I have also posted this hint before on another thread about the hint in the hh novel a thousand sons. Its a vision a remembrancer has of the future 

its too late... the wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh throne... no, the blood! The ravens, i see them too. The lost sons and a raven of blood. they cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!

now you cant get much clearer than that. the blood ravens battle cry is knowledge is power and she also mention them being lost sons.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Their Index Astartes article states clearly that the Geneseed is stable and isn't the source of them having so many psykers despite their tithe tested thoughrally on more then one occasion. 

That Article was written by Graham McNeill... Who as you know, Also wrote Thousand Sons.


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## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

GrizBe said:


> Their Index Astartes article states clearly that the Geneseed is stable and isn't the source of them having so many psykers despite their tithe tested thoughrally on more then one occasion.
> 
> That Article was written by Graham McNeill... Who as you know, Also wrote Thousand Sons.


(I'm no expert, I haven't read any books, only played the first Dawn of War and just looked up BR info online and read the CSM codex, so if I sound completely moronic that's why. :wink: )

Well, didn't the Rubric only dust those with little to no psychic potential, and stabilize the actual psykers? Perhaps that has something to do with their recruitment practices.

And, as Child said, they could have been founded post-Rubric, which would have stabilized them.

Or perhaps the Inner Circle is doing something to keep them stable and/or non-dusty? Perhaps some kind of big psychic shielding or something?


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

See.. thats what gets me... The Rubric was designed to affect ALL of Magnus geneseed... so, if the Blood Ravens were of his stock, they'd have gotten dusted too. 

Add that to the fact Magnus geneseed was prone to mutation from the start, yet, the BR's is stable... its more likely they are not related to the Thousand Sons then are...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Rubric affeected all those members of the Legion present on the Planet of Sorcerors in the Eye of Terror- but we know the Thousand Sons fleet was scattered and not all of the Legion fought in the Battle for Prospero, and so weren't transported to their new home in the Warp.

Those marines could be the source of the geneseed (or the geneseed kept by the Adeptus Mechanicus- all traitors geneseeds held on Mars were put into Stasis after the Heresy).

Who's to say the Blood Ravens aren't a mongrel chapter? Based on more than one Primarch's geneseed to counter the weaknesses inherent in Magnus' geneseed- it's happened more than once before.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> The Rubric was designed to affect ALL of Magnus geneseed...


No where does it specifically state that the Rubric of Ahriman was intended to target all of Magnus' geneseed. The Rubric occured on the Planet of the Sorcerers, and it may be the case that the Rubric only effected those Astartes present on the Planet of the Sorcerers (which would have been the entire Thousand Sons Legion, or at least those who escaped the Burning of Prospero into the Eye - take into account that Magnus scattered his Legion's Fleet before the Emperor's Wolves attacked). There are several loopholes like this with which you can justify the Blood Ravens being of Magnus' geneseed, yet being unaffected by the Rubric of Ahriman.



GrizBe said:


> Add that to the fact Magnus geneseed was prone to mutation from the start, yet, the BR's is stable... its more likely they are not related to the Thousand Sons then are...


But lets look at the reasons why Magnus' geneseed was psychically unstable. Was it because the Emperor intended to maintain a Legion of psychics led by a psychically manifested Primarch, and due to the scattering of the Primarchs the XV Legion had no sire with which to maintain and stabilise their geneseed? Or was Tzeentch involved from this point (which he is heavily implied to have been), did he mutate and effect the geneseed of the Thousand Sons as a means to an end? 

Either way, it doesn't prevent the Blood Ravens from bearing the geneseed of Magnus the Red. It just means that either they are somehow covering up their geneseed mutation, or that they truly do bear stable geneseed, in which case some force prevented the mutation of the Blood Ravens' geneseed that the Thousand Sons Legion's suffered throughout the Great Crusade and beyond, perhaps mixed geneseed to counter-balance the mutations - who knows. But there are several plausable explanations.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Its logical since they've supposide ties to the Blood angels, Dark Angels and the Raven Guard... And the DOW games hinted at links to the Word Bearers and the Black Legion.

Just seems really unlogical that they're connected to the Thousand Sons to me... just because they've alot of psykers, which as I pointed out they recruited rather then mutated, someones made the theory they were linked.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Its been stated that the blood ravens have no tie to the Blood angels or the raven guard, and where is it ever hinted about a link to the DAs?

The only word bearer conection is that eliphas called thule brother. Its a common greating amoungst astartes. The black legion connection is probably either when the 5th company turn traitor or to do with Kyras's bargin with Ulkair.

And the rubric only affected the PoS, Its expressly wrote how the planet was engulfed in a magical storm. 

And based on chapter records in the past what actually counts as stable? there have been fluff concerning mutating blood ravens. From what is written in a thousand sons, the mutation of the geneseed and the rubric was the direct manifestation of tzeentch's will


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## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Who's to say the Blood Ravens aren't a mongrel chapter? Based on more than one Primarch's geneseed to counter the weaknesses inherent in Magnus' geneseed- it's happened more than once before.


Hmm... a chapter built upon various Traitor geneseeds could be interesting... I doubt that's what the Blood Ravens are supposed to be, but it could make for some interesting homebrew fluff...


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

GrizBe said:


> Just seems really unlogical that they're connected to the Thousand Sons to me... just because they've alot of psykers, which as I pointed out they recruited rather then mutated, someones made the theory they were linked.


What are the chances of the majority of their recruits just happen to be psykers? about as likely as winning the lottery 5 times in a row if you ask me. Its more likely that the geneseed causes a psyker mutation than the BR happen to be hand picking all the psykers off a planet or 10 (which would NOT be enough recruits to keep the chapter at fighting strength. especially since psykers are rare to being with).

on a side note, i always figured the BR were doing something similar along the lines as the Black Dragons for their geneseed tithe. Black Dragons have mutations galore and yet their tithe to mars shows the geneseed as being as clean if not cleaner than any smurf geneseed. maybe the BR inner circle is responsible for that.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

One of their main recruting worlds was Cyrene though, which was noted for being psyker heavy to the point it had to be Exterminatus as the entire population became psykers...


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## nocturnalK (Jun 15, 2010)

lol, ill throw a big gun in the Pile, maybe they are related to the Lunar wolves?......


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Already suspected since they're The Black Legion. lol


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ther's so few Luna Wolves around now (The Black Legion has a fairly low percentage of those with the geneseed of Horus) that the geneseed would need to be from the stocks on Mars or from a loyalist faction, which is very unlikely.


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