# Harlequins Use?



## DireAvenger (Dec 27, 2006)

ok, i play eldar and have the new codex and all, but i still dont really understand the place of the harlequins. i havent even really thought about using them, but obv some ppl do. i was wondering what their place is in the army exactly and why youd take them over an aspect warrior.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

Basically they can run around unharmed due to veil of tears which gives them an average spotting distance of 14"=charge range, with multiple kisses they rip the crap out of Just about anything. Tornado's and similar mobile multishot units should cause them a problem or two though.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Harlequins are amazing CC units.

Just don't leave them out in the open too long. They will get shot to pieces.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

They're there to tear through Space Marines a heck of a lot faster than Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees possibly can. Scorpions have close combat weapons, and Banshees are S3... but strength and the weapon itself is meaningless when the attack is rending. The Harlequins give you defense against heavily-armoured, tough opponents in close combat. 

Admittedly, they can handle anything that Striking Scorpions can as well, but they're definitely better against power-armoured foes than the close combat Aspects for the most part.


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## Deadshane (Dec 29, 2006)

Harlequins are a fabulous Counterattack for your shooty eldar force.

Keep them centered within your firebase, dont allow any transports to get close enough to drop troops and rapid fire on them, they are a BIG target for this. They have to be protected until its time for them to pounce and get the enemy off of your guys.

I've heard people whine about how useless the Death Jester is, this is just wrong. Harlequins should NOT be charging across the table. Veil of tears is nice but a single squad getting close somehow and rapid firing will kill the harlequins dead. Even if they are toting along a Farseer that Fortunes them, even this isnt protection enough for 18-22+ pt models. If you want to be offensive with them, for pete's sake stick them in a falcon. Otherwise, have them sit back and let the Death Jester shoot adding to your crazy firepower. They will fight in HtH soon enough.

As a counterattack unit, they are one of the scariest units in the game. Everyone is afraid of Genestealers, now the eldar have a unit that is worse. They cant be shot at at range, the best spotting distance a unit can roll to see them is 12" after rolling boxcars. Indirect or 'guess' range weapons cant even shoot at them, period. No extra dice for deviation, simply "cannot shoot if not within spotting distance". (excluding, a minelaying Whirlwind, which targets the ground)

If you will look, the only unit that really compares to them in the codex are the Howling Banshees, for Close combat scariness. Banshees are a bit more offensive though and are better suited (largly due to their transport option) for a more 'in your face' set of tactics. They are a bit, just a small bit, sturdier against enemy shooting and hth hits. Thanx to the Veil though, the Harlequins are Obviously suited more to hanging back. If an enemy sees banshees or even scorpions sitting back waiting to counterattack his main charge on your forces he might be inclined to blast them with heavy bolters or an ordinance shot to lessen your chances of fighting him off. Those aspects are made more for offensive tactics than defensive ones, like the harlequins are suited for.

I for one cant wait for the new models to come out. My eldar list is total firepower superiority, and I'm waiting for the harlequins to come out to complete my counterattack against HtH armies. I refuse to proxy or buy the older models as the newer ones are so nice. Try the Harlies the way I described above and I'm sure you'll find they're worth every point.


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## DireAvenger (Dec 27, 2006)

good points, honestly i havent looked through them thoroughly but they are kinda odd in my opinion but sound like they may make a very nice addition in my army.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I see the points for sitting back with the Harlequins, but disagree with them. A troupe should ALWAYS move up with another stronger unit. Either Banshees for the hitting power, or Scorpions for the staying power(preferable). Both should assault at the same time using the Furiousness of the Troupe, then leave combat with the Harlequins at the end, hiding behind the assault. 

With boxcars the enemy can see them at 24", not 12", from how I read the rules. So using the assault with the better-save scorpions would be choice to hide behind, as you have a greater chance of survival over banshee saves. Even better would be to back up those Harlies with Jain-Zar in their midst for the first wave. Always keep the scorpions between the harlies and the enemy when not charging.

They are a 100% light assault unit that needs a heavier assault unit to lead them. They pack a major punch on the charge, so use hit n run ALOT and keep em out of range and LOS.

-Khaine-


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## Deadshane (Dec 29, 2006)

Yea, the 12" rulesquote was wrong on my part. (I post most of the time after work and am tired.) 14" is the average distance rolled against veil and is well within charge range for the harlies.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> 14" is the average distance rolled against veil and is well within charge range for the harlies.


Sorry to be pedantic, but its outside their charge range unless they roll a 2 or more likely 3+ for fleet. Getting that close with foot-slogging harlies is a dangerous game, a good Veil roll can leave them in all sorts of rapid fire problems.


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## Farseer Ryan (Jan 25, 2007)

dude harlies are to eldar as genestealers are to nids. Amazing CC units with power to take down even te toughest of targets through rending.


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## Prophaniti (Jan 24, 2007)

Just been thinking about how to counter these beasts. Especially for those GTing in the UK. It applies to imperial forces only though (so no good for my tau  )

Dæmonhunter Inquisitor, Psycannon, Null-rod, 2 mystics (vs Deep-strikers in other forces), 3 Heavy-bolter servitors.

The null-rod negates Veil of tears for the whole squad


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## Deadshane (Dec 29, 2006)

anathema said:


> > 14" is the average distance rolled against veil and is well within charge range for the harlies.
> 
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic, but its outside their charge range unless they roll a 2 or more likely 3+ for fleet. Getting that close with foot-slogging harlies is a dangerous game, a good Veil roll can leave them in all sorts of rapid fire problems.


"outside their charge range unless they roll a 2 or 3 for fleet"

seems like within charge range to me.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Oh I agree, most of the time you'll get in, but you can never guarantee it.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Taking chances is part of the game. The problem with chance is that sometimes you end up on the wrong side of it. That's the nature of lady luck. She's a fickle mistress, but when you do end up on her good side... things work out quite well. To roll a 2 or a 3 for a fleet roll is quite likely, anyway. You have a 50% chance to roll a 4+, a 67% (rounded up) chance to roll a 3+, and a solid 83% (rounded down) chance to get a 2+. For those of you who don't like Math-hammer... sorry, but statistics are a huge part of the game. Knowing the numbers with the odds is the difference between someone who's just good at the game and someone who's truly an exceptional commander.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Obviously its a risk worth taking in that situation, but my main point is that to end your turn within 14-18" of a rapid firing unit (for the next turn charge) for example is potentially a big problem. Averages count yes, but when you are 14" and they step up and reduce that to 8" then there are big problems. If you don't get within 14-18", then you won't be charging. Thats why Harlies on foot need extremely careful use of LOS blocking cover and supporting units to keep them from dying expensively.


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

Prophaniti said:


> Just been thinking about how to counter these beasts. Especially for those GTing in the UK. It applies to imperial forces only though (so no good for my tau  )
> 
> Dæmonhunter Inquisitor, Psycannon, Null-rod, 2 mystics (vs Deep-strikers in other forces), 3 Heavy-bolter servitors.
> 
> The null-rod negates Veil of tears for the whole squad


Or just take a Vindicare, and snipe the Shadowseer. He can do that as he ignores targeting restrictions, and the VoT is a targeting restriction.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Ah, no, not really. A proper examination of that rule shows the caveat that it's only for choosing which model to take off. However, with his goggles, he's able to see further into that Harlequn power.


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

Vindicare:
"Can target any model, regardless of targeting restrictions."

Veil of Tears:
"Any models attempting to target..."

Seems like a taregting restriction to me. 
And the spy glasses only affect Night Fight, not Veil of Tears. Veil of Tears never says anything about night fight rules.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

True he does Ignore It, but to be honest would you EVER truly consider using the Vindicare? :roll: 
Shame really as I love the model.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Necrontyr said:


> Vindicare:
> "Can target any model, regardless of targeting restrictions."
> 
> Veil of Tears:
> ...


I suggest never posting only part of a rule. While I don't have either codex on me I do not think the wording of targeting restrictions under the vindicare is supposed to work as you seem to believe. If the rest of that sentence refering to Veil of tears is anything like, "Any models attempting to target the harlies must roll to see if they can see them..." then it is not a targeting restriction because it does not prevent him from targeting the squad, just seeing and shooting at it. 

A targeting restrction prevents you from chosing something as a target. Veil of Tears does not prevent you from choosing harlies as a target and so it is not a targeting restriction, it is a range restriction. As I said, I don't have the codicies on me so feel free to show me up by posting all of both rules.


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## deadlygopher (Jan 30, 2007)

Yeah... the Vindicator's Marksman skill (pg 26 Daemonhunters) discusses choosing which model you can kill, and says he needs to have range and sight, so an ability limiting his sight would still affect the vindicare. And more specifically, the fact he has the Spy Mask only asserts that he is subject to sight limiting abilities such as Night Fight. However, the Veil's ability isn't night fight, so his mask isn't going to help him shoot the shadowseer.

Claiming that 'ignores targeting restrictions' includes being able to ignore Veil of Tears is a pretty 'between the lines' reading of the rules. What about the mountain in between my shadowseer and your assassin? That's a targeting restriction, can't he ignore it? Of course not.


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them. 

The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Necrontyr said:


> The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them.
> 
> The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.


The answer to your argument is right in your own post. The Vindicare can ignore all targeting restrictions except for two, range and LOS. Veil of Tears is an ability that is a targeting restriction, so he ignores it unless it either affects range or line of sight. What does Veil of Tears affect? Range! Which is a targeting restriction it specifically says he has to follow! (And really, range is not a targeting restriction, but for the sake of this argument we'll assume it's one.)

You underlined the wrong word in your post: 

"The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight."


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Necrontyr said:


> Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.


Where did I say anything about the range of his gun? Where does his rules say anything about the range of his gun? Veil of Tears affects his spotting distance, you said that yourself. Your spotting distance is the range you can see and thus the range you can fire at regardless of the range of your weapon. His rules specifically state that he ignores targeting restrictions except for range and LOS. If his range is reduced to 12 inches because of a spotting distance restriction, it wouldn't matter if his gun was 120" range because, as you said yourself, spotting distance has nothing to do with the range of the gun. Nothing in his rules state or even suggest that he is immune to effects taht reduce his spotting distance and in fact the very presence of his night fighting wargear suggests the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but setting up a straw man argument isn't going to help you prove your point.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Alright, since it's obvious we'll never have a consensus, I move for a vote for who thinks this actually works.

I vote no, on the basis that you're buggering with words.


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

Warboss Dakka said:


> Ahh, but Night Fight does not affect the range of any weapon either, and affects the range at which a unit can be targeted just like Veil of Tears, and yet he is not immune to Night Fight rules. Also, does it say "Range as in the range of his weapon" or mention the range of his weapon at all? Or does it just say range? You can't argue semantics and nit pick about RAW wording when it supports your case and then make ambiguous assumptions and ignore the RAW when it doesn't.


PG 84 Of your Rule Book:
"Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, rolling once per unit only. This is the maximum range that any non-barrage weapon can fire."
Seems pretty obvious there.

PG 49 of the Eldar Codex:
"Any unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or unit she is with must roll 2D6. This is their spotting distance in inches."

Veil of Tears has nothing to do with line of sight, nor with range. It has to do with targeting. The test is rolled to target the unit. Night fight is rolled to determine range. Since a Vindicare ignores targetting restrictions, it is a fair argument to say they ignore Veil of Tears. 

But, this is the joy of the internet! We can argue about rules all we want here and not lose any time in our games, but if it ever did came up in a game, I would just say roll a D6 and be done with it.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Plain and simple
Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

That has precisely dick to do with this debate.

I've gone back and read the Marksman special rule in its every appearance. Since by the direct written rule it is unspecific as to whether or not this works, it comes down to the designers' intent, whatever that may have been. As none of these Marksman rules were written with knowledge of this forthcoming Veil of Tears ability, and the Veil of Tears was obviously written in ignorance of the Marksman, I would have to say that the Marksman rule was not intended to allow the Vindicaire to target the unit.

However, since this is not actually substantiated or disproved, it'll have to come down to a roll in a game until a FAQ is written.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> Plain and simple
> Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad


This does indeed have nothing to do with the Marksman debate and is completely wrong into the bargain. Guess weapons still have to pick a target and are units firing at them, and as such come under the "Any unit wishing to target the harlies...".


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## Fallen Angel (Dec 22, 2006)

Yeah in 3rd ed, guess range weaponary would probably be ok against veil of tears equipped harlequins but nowadays it can't unless you roll high enough. I can still this being contested at the GT final though on multiple occasions (sadly probably to drag the game out).

I'd lean towards the vinicare having to roll the distance to see the harlies buts i'd ask a ref to be sure (or to pass the buck onto them at the very least). 

I'm quite looking forward to having my first space clown sighting. Then leaping FWs out in front of them and shooting them down  Hopefully anyway!


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> I'm quite looking forward to having my first space clown sighting. Then leaping FWs out in front of them and shooting them down Hopefully anyway!


Not before they've got into your pants and eaten your Crisis first!


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Necrontyr said:


> Warboss Dakka said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh, but Night Fight does not affect the range of any weapon either, and affects the range at which a unit can be targeted just like Veil of Tears, and yet he is not immune to Night Fight rules. Also, does it say "Range as in the range of his weapon" or mention the range of his weapon at all? Or does it just say range? You can't argue semantics and nit pick about RAW wording when it supports your case and then make ambiguous assumptions and ignore the RAW when it doesn't.
> ...


So, just so I have your point absolutely straight, you do not believe that spotting distance range is a range restriction? If this is indeed what you believe, i am totally baffled as to why you believe that. If someone could post the newest rule for marksman special rule it would help, but I really am having a hard time biteing off on the idea that spotting range does not constitute a range restriction, since the word "range" is directly in the rule.


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## Prophaniti (Jan 24, 2007)

I'm with you Warboss.

You could also extend your argument to units beyond the maximum range of the exitus rifle, or more importantly for this argument, out of LOS of the Vindicare. Do these limitations also count as targetting restrictions (and therefore get ignored)? I think not.

The targetting restriction circumvention applies to target priority, choosing who dies in an enemy unit and shooting at independant characters only (IIRC).


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## Necrontyr (Dec 27, 2006)

RaW says absolutely nothing about weapon range. It says targeting, then it says distance to spot. It seems they made a point to avoid the word range. Your range to target the unit, (which happens before Range of the weapon is checked.) is what the Veil of tears affects. Never does it say anything about the range of the weapon, or LoS. So logically by RaW (GW's own policy) it is considered a targeting restriction and is therefore ignored by the Vindicare's marksmen rule.

Basically here is how a normal shooting phase takes place:
1) Target a unit
2) Check Range of Weapons
3) Roll to hit, etc

and now a shooting phase against a Veil of Tears unit of Harlequins:
1) Attempt to target (using the 2d6 rule)
2) Check range of weapons if able to target
3) Roll to hit, etc

Also the ability to ignore targeting restriction does not specify what kind of restrictions it ignore, only what kind it does not (Range of Gun, and LoS). It states ignores all targeting restrictions.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Necrontyr said:


> RaW says absolutely nothing about weapon range. It says targeting, then it says distance to spot. It seems they made a point to avoid the word range. Your range to target the unit, (which happens before Range of the weapon is checked.) is what the Veil of tears affects. Never does it say anything about the range of the weapon, or LoS. So logically by RaW (GW's own policy) it is considered a targeting restriction and is therefore ignored by the Vindicare's marksmen rule.
> 
> Basically here is how a normal shooting phase takes place:
> 1) Target a unit
> ...


This is why I've asked for all of both rules to be posted over and over again, there is no point in me arguing RAW if you keep changing the wording of the rule. IE, you keep sumarizing it as saying something and then when I point out how the RAW does not support that you tell me the wording does not actually say this or that. I don't think you're doing it on purpose but it's damned annoying to keep having to second guess which part you've sumarized and which is the actual wording of the rules. Just a bit ago you said there was nothing that affected the range of a weapon, then told me the night fight rules specifically say they do. I'm not arguing with you to win an argument, I'm arguing with you because I want to know the answer to this question, if we continue to argue about RAW without the exact wording being posted, we are going to get nowhere.

Also, does the marksman rule actually say "Range of gun" or just "range"? This will matter a whole lot to Tau players...I believe it is ludicrois to assume that "distance" and "range" are not interchangeable terms. In other words, to claim that "Spotting distance" does not constitue a range restriction because they used the word distance instead of range, is silly. Do you honestly believe they purposefully avoided the word range because they were thinking specifically about the vindicare's marksman rule or do you think they didn't use the word range because in this instance it has the exact same meaning as the word distance? I guess eitehr way it won't matter because we are talking raw.

In that case, I would simply say that no where in the Veil of Tears rule (as it has been sumarized) does it specifically say it is a targeting restriction. It uses the words attempting to target but not "restriction" so therefore does not count as one because of RAW. (I fully ackowledge that this is pedantic and downright stupid, but if that's the level we are going to analyze the rules at then so be it.)


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## deadlygopher (Jan 30, 2007)

Marksman: You may nominate the model targeted by the Vindicare Assassin when he is shooting, such as a Sergeant or a heavy weapons trooper. This means you get to choose which model is taken off, not the enemy. In addition, the Vindicare can target any model in range and line of sight, regardless of any targeting restrictions (such as independent characters within 6” of another unit).

So necrontyr, you’re saying that because the shadowseer is within range of your rifle and your line of sight is unobstructed by terrain, that you can pick him out regardless of the veil. However, ‘spotting distance’ is how far you can see, thus it affect line of sight and Marksman won’t save you. 

Also, if we’re going to be uber-RAW, please note the next line of the Veil rule, “If models are not within spotting range, they may not fire that turn.” Fine, you ignore the Veil as a targeting restriction and choose the shadowseer as your target. Great. You get to target the shadowseer. That’s all that Marksman lets you do. You still can’t fire if you’re not within spotting distance. Nothing in the Markman rule lets you ‘always fire.’ Marksman lets you pick out the target, Veil keeps you from shooting.

But that’s a pretty ‘between the lines’ reading, as is your argument in general. But if you pulled it on me, I’d return with the fact you can’t fire. In reality, it seems very reasonable that ‘spotting distance’ is how far you can see, so if something is farther away that you can see, it’s not in your line of sight.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

Grr, I was just about to say all that!

Spy masks only help again Night Fight Rules, so Veil of Tears is still in effect. The marksman skill only removes targeting restrictions, as stated by everyone. Targeting means SELECTING something visually.
Nowhere does Veil of Tears say you can't TARGET certain members or anything of that sort, only that you must roll to see if they are in range which the Veil can possibly remove them from.
Marksman speficially says they must be in range and LoS, regardless of restrictions present in those parameters. But, Veil of Tears putting you out of LoS removes the Vindicare from those parameters, therefore superseding the rule in a clever and obvious fashion.
Further arguement is moot and off topic as it is.

-Khaine-


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## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Don't know if this matters any, but don't ever try to field an entirely Harlaquin army.
A friend of mine once downloaded the Internet codex, and decided they would be fun to collect. He and I had a small, 500 point battle against my Tyranids, using various models to represent the Harlaquins. All together he had 12 models to my 40. Harlequins may be good, but they can only kill so many troops at a time...
(I won the game, by the way 8))


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

The rules have changed now so the harlequins being discussed here are very different to the ones from the old CA codex. Ive won games with the old codex rules though, but they were an army that was easy to counter once you had a little experience against them


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## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Yeah, I know. I was just mentioning it, that's all.


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## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

molecular thread stabby machines how can you not take those guys


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## Pyromanic Tendencies (Mar 20, 2007)

Um, Sei'fir, you where the guy who played that particular all-Harlquin army I was talking about (and lost horrible with)...


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## Sei 'fir (Mar 23, 2007)

oh come on a pure harlequin army i am talking bout integrating them into an eldar army


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