# Will the HH series change the current view of chaos legions



## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

AS the HH series shows us more of the tragedies and choices of the Primarchs and their legions that sadly turned to chaos will these new ideas come through to the 40k era and change our ideas and perceptions of the chaos Primarchs and also make writting about them change with it.

To explain further most CSM books in 40k are pretty much the same in the sense of portraying CSMs as evil madmen with little intelligence like devil possessed zombies in a way. Will they evolve due to the HH series to be more enigmatic, articulate and intelligent, have more depth to their charactors. Less of the frothing at the mouths stuff and more challenging roles.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Well it has been a long time since they went to chaos. So it seems reasonable that they would become frothing madmen. I dunno, I think I would like to see some depth to them but not too much.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> To explain further most CSM books in 40k are pretty much the same in the sense of portraying CSMs as evil madmen with little intelligence like devil possessed zombies in a way. Will they evolve due to the HH series to be more enigmatic, articulate and intelligent, have more depth to their charactors. Less of the frothing at the mouths stuff and more challenging roles.


I don't think that's the case at all. I don't find that Chaos Astartes are portrayed solely as 'frothing madman' or without depth at all. Just look at the _Dark Noun_ series, _Lord of the Night_ or _Soul Hunter_ for example.

But as for their behaviour, well what do you expect? They've had their morality warped by their dedications, their sanity even. You can't exactly expect them to act like normal Imperial citizens.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child of the Emperor,

Surely, though, you see the disparity between novels where Chaos Space Marines are protagonists and ones where they are not? The _Dark Noun_ series (good one!), for example, features White Consuls non-protagonists that are given some personality and depth. The reverse, unfortunately, is not often the case. Graham McNeill's been the exception, I think, though he accomplished this by sticking to a recurring cast of villains.

To the OP,

Haven't the Horus Heresy novels accomplished that to some degree already, though? At the very least, no one looks at the Alpha Legion, the Thousand Sons, or the Word Bearers the same anymore. Heck, Magnus and the Thousand Sons come off as pretty much sympathetic as a group--even if one doesn't necessarily want to forgive their colossal hubris.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I understand this completely.

CotE, have you read DoW Tempest? I know it`s a CS Goto book :suicide: but it does give Ahriman a bit of spotlight. Comparing him between that book and _A Thousand Sons _ you can draw a link between the two versions. 

So yes, I think these novels are offering a lot of insight into what made these guys act the way they are.

I mean look at Kharn in _After De`Shea_ and _Galaxy in Flames_(?). Then read _Wrath of Kharn._

There is definitely a change of character and personality. It`s not a clear case of black and white, but there is definitely more depth when we see them as the former loyalists.

As for more recent characters, like Huron and Honsou, well they each have their own backstories, but until they are more extensively covered by more novels, we will have to make do with the picture of them that we have. 

(sorry if Honsou reference is out of place, I have not read Storm of Iron so am going by his appearances in the UM series)


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I have to admit, prior to reading _Fulgrim_ my picture of him and _The Emperor's Children_ was one of disgust. Not just because of the pink armor or the pansy attitude in general.

Seeing how Fulgrim fell, and seeing that he had in his hand the ability to end the Heresy before it even started (refer to Fulgrim, the part where he silently appears behind Horus' fleet and tells his men to lock targets), but just so happened that his own arrogance and desire for perfection led him to the Laeran Sword prior to the encounter with the Eldar.

Not to mention my view of the Alpha Legion has elevated them to one of my top three legions. Then again, my view of the Dark Angels in turn has dropped with my belief that Jonson planned to betray the Imperium once Horus won.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Wouldn't it be a little hard for the Lion to betray the Imperium _after_ Horus won?


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## TheThousandthSon (Sep 30, 2010)

I think its changed views, before I didn't realy care about Space Wolves or Word Bearers and now I cant stand them. Also before I just thought of all Chaos legions as evil but now I kind of feel sorry for the T sons and how they where froced into damnation.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think the big decider will be when we get some solid stuff that is centred around the emperor, his plans for the imperium and what he opinions were on all the primarchs before/during the HH.
we tend to think that the chaos legions were bad for turning against the emperor but whos to say he wasnt a complete fool and didnt deserve to be telling the whole of mankind what they should be doing.
now before you start shouting about the evils of chaos surely there is evil in subjugating the whole of humanity under one rule and if you dont comply you get exterminated.
for all we know chaos could actually be telling the truth when it comes to the emperor and he may just be a weak incompetent fool who just couldnt fathom that there is no denying chaos and then we would feel totally different towards the csm. just depends on what frame of mind you wanna look at it i suppose.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would say that the Horus Series really has shown a light on the traitor primarchs. I also think its well deserved as they are the greatest men of mankind. Their downfalls should be tragic to the Imperium in the sense that they lost great generals.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Unknown Primarch,

There's certainly more information to be had about the Emperor's designs, but I think there's enough out there to indicate that the Traitor Primarchs were at best misguided and at worst outright evil.

The Emperor's grand scheme centered on bringing Humanity under a single power while simultaneously suppressing the fundamental truth behind the workings of the universe. He absolutely needed to deny Chaos its greatest psychic fodder, and the "moral imperative" of protecting Humanity from the predations of the Warp (given the precedent of the Age of Strife) justified (in his eyes) the means by which he would do so. Those means, of course, included total war, the extinguishing of entire planets, and a totalitarian rule that on the one hand created vast and wondrous works... and on the other brutally suppressed freedom.

Ultimately, one must remember this. However flawed the Emperor, however brutal in his drive to save Mankind, the Ruinous Powers are even worse. Lorgar can in no way justify his schemes and actions following the rebuke he received from the Emperor. Rebellion? Sure. A ploy to brainwash, corrupt, and/or blackmail his fellow Primarchs into falling in line with gods with no love for Man? No excuse.

Cheers,
P.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think you may have not read into my comment properly mate. 

i was trying to point out that who is to say chaos isnt the way forward. you are looking at it from the point of view of a man but why cant chaos be the true path.
it seems to have a lot of power, maybe the most power out of any entity in 40k, seems to be able to influence not just man but everything in the 40k galaxy down to a cellular level. the out come isnt pretty but it just depends on how you look at it. 
the csm have a total different outlook on the galaxy then when they were loyal to terra and from their actions seem to got what chaos promised them (power) even if they didnt complete the mission of ending the imperium (which might be what the powers wanted so probably not so bothered about anyway) so chaos hasnt just used them and spat them out like you might expect from failiars.
now you may try and say look what they do to their followers but its all that dissimilar to what the imperium does, defo not as bad but its not like the imperium is a utopia anyway. the imperium wouldnt think twice about ending planets if they thought it was the correct course of action and so would chaos.

so hit on my point again it just depends on how you look on it. obviously some of the emperors forces got pissed at him for one thing or another and decided to turn against his plans but the emperor didnt seem able to stop any of this so if he is all that then why not take his warpself into the heart of each chaos gods domain and end it once and for all. the answer that comes to my mind is chaos is so ingrained into everything in the galaxy (possibly universe) that whos to say it isnt the true way for all exsistence, at least its not the c'tan way which is total eradication of all life at the quickest possible speed.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Before the HH series it was easy to judge the fallen Primarchs and their Legions as inherently currupt and willing to fall to chaos. Now Im not sure. As we get more insight into the Primarchs like Lorgar and Magnus and Alpharius they dont seem to be mindless savages driven mad by war and bloodshed. 

Therefore using what is being written now in the HH series can that be projected into the 40k arena. 

Ok ill come out with it instead of beating about the bush, I want to see regret. I want to see one of the chaos primarchs retain some of the virtues they had prior to the fall. I want to see Magnus working on a way to free his legion from chaos in secret - to hate the chaos gods and work tirelessly to still overcome them, to be beyond his hatred for Russ (who he keeps in a cage by his throne). To seek redemption in some way, to deeply regret becoming a pawn of the dark gods and to still be able to grow in knowledge and power to help mankind over throw them.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> Before the HH series it was easy to judge the fallen Primarchs and their Legions as inherently currupt and willing to fall to chaos. Now Im not sure. As we get more insight into the Primarchs like Lorgar and Magnus and Alpharius they dont seem to be mindless savages driven mad by war and bloodshed.
> 
> Therefore using what is being written now in the HH series can that be projected into the 40k arena.
> 
> Ok ill come out with it instead of beating about the bush, I want to see regret. I want to see one of the chaos primarchs retain some of the virtues they had prior to the fall. I want to see Magnus working on a way to free his legion from chaos in secret - to hate the chaos gods and work tirelessly to still overcome them, to be beyond his hatred for Russ (who he keeps in a cage by his throne). To seek redemption in some way, to deeply regret becoming a pawn of the dark gods and to still be able to grow in knowledge and power to help mankind over throw them.


well put MuSigma, well put indeed. i think each of the fallen primarchs as we have seen so far have thier tragedy and here's my opinion.

Horus already felt betrayed by his father, believing that his father had turned his back not only on the brothers but on him, by not confiding in him the reason for his returning to terra and leaving the running of the imperium in the hands of tax collectors and the like, and the burden of running the great crusade on his shoulders as he was the warmaster. That led to his fall, chaos (with a little help from Erebus) managed to tap into this and fuel his - i suppose the word would be abandonment at the hands of his father, fuel this into making him believe that his father wanted to attain divinity, something that Horus and the other leigons have exterminated worlds and races for when his father has decreed that there shall be no gods.

Fulgrim, guess thats easy enough, they say a pride comes before a fall, however Fulgrim seemed to me to always be looking to Horus and Sanguinus, the two eldest(?) for aceptance that what he and his sons were doing were right. when he was told that a man he idolsied and hero worshiped, a man who's very name was the name of his own leigon and who had allowed only them to bear his standard on thier armour must have been a blow, not just to his pride but to how he saw the universe, and he was already under the sway increassngly of the demon that possessed the sword so when he killed Ferrus and came out of his somewhat strange fog, saw that he had killed the one brother that he shared a close bond with perhapes closer then Horus, he gave the demon the doorway he wanted, by saying he wanted to end it all he gave the demon of Slaanesh everything he wanted, a primarchs body that he could mold to whatever he wanted and a legion that he could pervert.

Lorgar was like all that had his faith questioned then betrayed, his father had allowed him to crusade for two hundred years or so and build temples in his name and worlds that worshipped him as a god only to be humilated not just before his own sons, but his brother and his brothers leigon. 
like all those of a strong faith Lorgar sought answers from elsewhere and those answers came in the form of chaos and thus the downfall of his legion in that they found a new faith. This can happen when everything you believe in is suddenly shaken to the core in a cold and heartless way, i think i posted on another thread that had Gulliman been a brother to him then he would have asked his father and the Sigilite to take the matter somewhere private and not destroy a world that whilst in worship of the Emperor and his son Lorgar was basically an ideal world for the Imperium. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were also steering a Primarch who was not a warrior but a man of faith and a peacemaker, of philosophy into damnation and in his blind faith that is what he became...blind to the demands of Chaos and tricked by their words that he and he alone was the first son of Chaos, to a man of such deep religous virtues as Lorgar that is like giing him the keys to paradise.

Angron...i am not too sure about as he has been seen only intermidantly but i would feel for Angron because as a man of honour he felt his father had betrayed him, by teleporting him away from those he considered his brothers and sisters, his former gladiator family and leaving them to die what i have no doubt is a horrible death he was made to feel like a coward.
something no one can actually call one such as Angron. It took Kharn to have the balls enough to prove to him that he was worthy and Angron took a great deal of pride in his sons, although he used cybernetic implants to try and enhance thier rage or something please correct me if i am wrong. Angron could never trust the emperor again after being taken from those he called family who he had fought alongside and bled alongside, to him the Emperor had no honour and for such a driven man to whom honour was everything it was easy to turn to someting that in his eyes had honour.

Kurze, Kurze was plagued not only by visions all his life butvisions ofhis own death. The Empeor said he wold help him but as time went on Kurze believed that all he had done, all the so called exaggerated ofences of the Night Lords were in excess, had been by his fathers command, his father had sent them in to deal with a world that would not tow the line as it were and nowhe was being penilised for doing what he had been ordered to do, add to that, when he confided in Fulgrim about his prophetic visons, Fulgrim betrayed him. His father had tried to kill him on numerous ocasions He was the only Primach, aside from Angron i susupect that had no family, no surrogate mother or father and so it came as no surprise to him that his bloodfamily was not accepting of him totally either but that did not say he did not try, he was doing as his father ordered, being a loyal son but in the end having a father turn round, order your assasination and condemn your sons was enough and Kurze reverted back to being what he had been on Nostramo Quintus, the night haunter a man that is truely alone who could never count on his fathers love.

Magnus i believe is perhapes the most tragic, in bringing a warning to his father of Horus and his ultimate betrayal, by trying to do the one thing he could to save his sons from the flesh change, is the reason why he fell. He brings a warning to his father who isn't interested in expliantions and who unleashes the Wolves and sets brother against brother and Magnus into the waiting arms of the weaver of fate. Leman wanted to destroy Magnus the hatred betwen them both was known so the emperor must have known that by unleashing the wolves there could be only one outcome and in this Magnus not only feels betrayed by those around him but also he feels a great guilt in what has befallen his sons, and that he and he alone is responsible for thier fate, betrayed by his father or not.

Alpharius i am unclear on except that he and his brother did what they did in service for the emperor whether that is still true today or not i have no idea. 

Morarion i am not yet clear on except that he was betrayed by his own sons especailly Typhus, the Herald himself and that must be one heck of a bitter pill to swallow.

sorry for the ramble :so_happy:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Mortarion was always a bit miffed at the big cheese for killing the Tyrant of Barbarus when he wanted to kill him.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Unknown Primarch,

I got your point... I just don't agree with it. 

Chaos is certainly powerful, but I wouldn't say it's the way forward. The powers of the Warp are too fickle, treacherous, and undependable to be relied upon.

Sure, they bestowed immortality to the Traitor Legionnaires--but only after a fashion. They remain immortal as long as they reside in a realm of insanity, which brings with it unwanted mutation. The World Eaters were driven to extremes of aggressive insanity, and it can be argued that the Emperor's Children were as well. Mortarion certainly didn't plan for his Death Guard to become plague carriers. And Ahriman, whatever his self-conciliatory notions, definitely didn't plan on turning 90% of his vulnerable brothers to mindless automata.

With the Emperor, the tyranny and oppression of the Imperium (traits that were by no means universal) _had a point:_ preventing the collapse and horrors of the Age of Strife (which, by the way, was due to Chaos) from occurring again. By contrast, the scale of suffering and insanity that Chaos espouses is aimed only at the pleasure of the so-called Ruinous Powers and the furtherment of their own might.

Chaos, ultimately, isn't a way forward for Humanity. It's a lateral progression toward corruption and/or insanity. The Imperium hasn't moved forward in ten millennia largely precisely because of a reverse of everything the Emperor espoused--they have mystified his person, espoused the religious and supernatural, and attached ritualization to virtually every facet of Humanity's existence. By contrast, have the Ruinous Powers allowed the Chaos Space Marines to make any great advances? Not really, excepting larger and more extravagant means of killing ever-greater numbers of (largely) innocent people.

Nothing about the Emperor indicated a "things as they have always been" agenda, though. Brutal, unrelenting, possessed of insufferable amounts of self righteousness, it still aimed at justifying those sins by freeing Humanity of the zero-sum game that Chaos had forced upon it (and other sentient species) for thirty thousand years.

Cheers,
P.

EDIT (some spoilers below):

Furthermore, I don't believe any of the Traitor Primarchs were "cheated" or betrayed. I think the Emperor himself _might_ have erred by not trusting them with certain aspects of knowledge, but this hardly amounts to valid reasoning on their part. Rather, I believe it was other forces at play that corrupted them... and made it easier for the bitter pill of "betrayal" to be swallowed and be made plausible in their eyes.

Horus - Whatever issues he had with the Emperor, ultimately he needed to be wounded, poisoned, exposed to Chaotic rituals, and then fed visions of a future _he_ would *unknowingly* bring about in order to convince him of his father's "megalomania/envy".

Alpharius - As seen in "Legion", the Primarch of the XX Legion did not turn against the Emperor out of hate, resentment, etc.

Angron - Already dangerously insane and violent, he himself was led to Khorne's cult by Horus. "After Desh'ea" pretty much absolves the Emperor of the theories of betrayal wherein Angron wails about his warriors being left to die.

Fulgrim - Would need to be brainwashed by a daemonic weapon for an extensive period of time. Even then, when confronted with the magnitude of his actions, it wasn't enough. It's not really Fulgrim that leads the Emperor's Children, now, is it?

Magnus the Red - Never wanted to be an agent of Chaos. In fact for all his knowledge and sorcerous might, he proved to be grossly ignorant of the actual gods of Chaos. He only turned after *Horus* changed the Emperor's orders to Leman Russ, which led to Prospero being decimated by the Space Wolves.

Mortarion - An intriguing case. We haven't actually seen the reasons for his fall yet. Hopefully, a "prequel" Death Guard novel will explain this further.

Night Haunter - Another dangerous sociopath, but his is a more interesting case. Here's a question: if the Haunter's chief complaint toward the Emperor was that he rebuked him from not stopping his excesses (which the Haunter claims were authorized), _what does that say about the Haunter himself?_ If the Haunter was even _remotely_ decent, being told to cease his actions should have come as a relief. Instead, he comes off as a wounded child, made angry because his father has finally told him he can't abuse and terrorize the other kids.

Perturabo - Probably the least sympathetic of the Primarchs, in my opinion. His "burden to bear" is basically having to do what had led to Guiliman and his Ultramarines being so hugely successful. The reason he couldn't do it might be due to his implied inability to trust anyone from as early as his childhood in Olympia (which might be a hint of even greater problems).

... and thus we come down to Lorgar.

It's not coincidental that Lorgar had the strongest case for "Primarch who turned because he was wronged by the Emperor"... he also happens to be the _original_ rebel and the instigator of the entire Heresy. Lorgar's chief complaint is that he is not allowed to exercise his faith.

I am actually willing to give this one to him. Of all the Emperor's failings, his greatest one seems to be his inability to relate to the Human Element on a micro level. By that, I mean that he is an excellent organizer, strategist, etc... but everything he does is on the macro level. He works on the scale of billions or trillions, not the individual. He orchestrates social and cultural changes that affect entire planets at a time, but cannot operate where an individual's emotions are concerned. He is *aware* of such concepts, hence his use of "Father and Son" themes, but he is ultimately unable to execute them properly. He doesn't ever actually say "Son, I love you." He projects enough psychic force to overwhelm that person into feeling it. He doesn't ever sit down and explain why his son was wrong; he projects enough psychic force to make his anger/disappointment/resentment felt.

Maybe the Emperor is just so inhuman that his logic approaches that of a computer. To him, the statistical cost of Lorgar--a being of tremendous faith and religious zeal evern before being found--being told of the menace and danger of Chaos perhaps outweighed the statistical benefit of him receiving enough clarity to make an informed decision of loyalty toward his father. I don't know.



How did the Emperor, in "The First Heretic", not smell Chaos on Kor-Phaeron, then and there?!?


Without Lorgar, the Heresy doesn't happen. At best, he gets Angron (insane), Fulgrim (brainwashing via daemon weapon), Magnus (assuming Tzeentch throws his weight in), Night Haunter (maybe, it all depends) and Perturabo (depending on how much you buy the theory that Horus gave him a brainwashing weapon).

That's eight, instead of nine, Traitor Legions--at best--and that's assuming that Horus' charisma, which was cited as key for the Heresy to happen, wouldn't force any of them to change their mind.

OK, ramble over!


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i think you may have not read into my comment properly mate.
> 
> i was trying to point out that who is to say chaos isnt the way forward. you are looking at it from the point of view of a man but why cant chaos be the true path.
> it seems to have a lot of power, maybe the most power out of any entity in 40k, seems to be able to influence not just man but everything in the 40k galaxy down to a cellular level. the out come isnt pretty but it just depends on how you look at it.
> ...


Actually it isn't how you look at it. Being a fictional work, there is no ambiguity. The creator of the universe within which all of the authors write clearly states that The Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys (although oftentimes anti-heroic in the same way the Punisher is an anti-heroic good guy) and the Chaos powers and followers are the bad guys (sometimes in the way that zombies in zombie movies are bad guys, other times in the same way that Michael Corleone is a bad guy.)

Just because writers write a sympathetic bad guy, or a bad guy with seemingly quality motivations doesn't make the bad guy a good guy. He is still the bad guy, just an empathetic one. England wasn't the bad guy from everyone's perspective in their conflicts with the Scots, but were they ever the bad guys for the film Braveheart. This is the same idea. Just because someone might perceive the actions of the antagonist as good doesn't make them the protagonist; they are still the antagonist.

In fact, we should really always be referring to the sides in the 40k universe as Protagonist and Antagonist, since there are, in fact, so many sides. However, while some fictional works portray the non-Imperium factions as the protagonist, the majority of works, and the point of view of the Imperium is clearly the protagonistic point of view for the 40k universe.

TL;DR version: Chaos is one of many antagonists which, in drastically simplified terms, means the bad guy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> Actually it isn't how you look at it. Being a fictional work, there is no ambiguity. he creator of the universe within which all of the authors write clearly states that The Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys (although oftentimes anti-heroic in the same way the Punisher is an anti-heroic good guy) and the Chaos powers and followers are the bad guys (sometimes in the way that zombies in zombie movies are bad guys, other times in the same way that Michael Corleone is a bad guy.)


I don't agree with that at all. 40k is all about ambiguity and personal interpretation, it's always been that way. If an individual interprets the setting as the Emperor being a mindless tyrant and Chaos being a worthwhile elemental force then thats their interpretation, and it's no less correct than yours or mine.

Often the Emperor may be portrayed as the 'good guy' but that's merely because most codicies and BL novels are from an Imperial point of view, it doesn't universally make it the case.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too. 
obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.

if you read bloodpact then you get more of a sense of the forces of chaos not being mindless deviants and are just actually following their own beliefs and culture even if it is chaos they worship. when you look at the essence of each chaos god then its nothing that doesnt come natural to man in one way or the other so following them can nearly been seen as normal.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too.
> obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.


I really don't have any issue with anything except for the last bit. The base setting, to a neutral observer with no particular rooting interest would classify the Imperium as the 'main character' protagonist with everyone except possibly Eldar and Tau as antagonists and those other two as anti-heroes (while sometimes doing good things, they do oppose the protagonist at times and have methods of which the protagonist would disapprove.)


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

For the purposes of this discussion, let us put aside the major forces and their purposes, that being the Emperor and the Chaos gods. What I wanted to look at was the Primarchs themselves. As I said in the opening post, we know more from the 30k HH era and looking at that, does that change the way we see the 40k Demon Primarchs.

Lets use the film the exorcist as a metaphor, a demon has possessed a girl, now we see a head spinning slime projecting vomitting mad creature, but we DO NOT make the mistake of confusing the possessed with the possessor. Their are 2 beings here - a human and a demon. In the same way could we see in a Demon Primarch 2 beings a human and a demon - are there any recognisable traits remaining in them that are capable of looking at them selves intelligently and knowing regret. 

In the sense of say Faust even if a person were to sell their soul to the devil who comes to them in the guise of a perfectly reasonable and believable way, later on, even if the person was willing to work with the devil for personal gain willingly, that person will come to regret that decision eventually.

Therefore even steeped in the service of the chaos gods are the Primarchs, even just one of them capable of an act of self honesty, or are they just head spinning projectile vomiting possessed idiots who have lost all self knowledge. At some point the inner person - would prefer to scream for "gods sake get this bloody demon out of my head." 

As for the larger scheme, the Emperor has some mighty but flawed pieces on the board of intergalactic conflict and has lost a hell of a lot of them to a better master player, what must he feel. In the same way Magnus learns hubris is the Emperor capable of such a lesson.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Apart from Fulgrim from what i understand the deamon primarchs aren't two seperate entitys as they have not been possesed. They themselves have become deamons, not possessed by one. Fulgrim of course is possessed


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

They may not be possessed, but can you truly say they are free to walk away from service to the dark gods. 

I know I would try, after 10,000 years of service to them I would try to escape, to free my soul and my legion from an eternity of evil.

Even better I would seek to gather my brother Primarchs and all their legions and assault the Chaos gods even if it were certain death to do so. For that purpose I was born. As all legions were born.

Chaos does not teach, it only betrays.

Knowledge is power, guard it well brothers.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I have a theory on why Mortarian fell, if indeed he was ever elevated. It comes in two parts:

1) Similar reason to Angron, his entire existence was focused on toppling the tyrants of Barbarus. He had destroyed, over-thrown and freed the humans from all other warlord. He believed he was invincible, able to breath what no human should be able to, achieving feats no human could, the pinnacle of a kind. The only remaining enemy was his 'father', the man who raised him*. When he reaches the mountain top, he is unable to do the deed he has been building to for years, Imagine being denied his final victory, nothing else is above him, save the one thing he wants, revenge against the oppressive dictator. Then, some stranger snatches his victory from him. There must be huge resentment from Mortarion at this figure for talking the thing he has wanted from the day he has escaped? Would he not feel resentment at not even being allowed to die and avenged, but knowing he is dying and having to watch a stranger take his goal from him.

2) Also, as a side note, consider what kind of a mental complex that must build, his surrogate father was an 'evil' overload, who was not a true human, who oppressed fellow humans whom Mortation felt sympathy for, and the Emperor is...almost exactly the same! The Emperor could be viewed as a tyrant, who exploits his species for his macro goals (and as many have pointed out) and not caring for the individual. Could Mortarion, having seen another person who claims his father and acts exactly as his previous 'father', sought another way to over-throw this new tyrant, and therefore attempted to kill this 'warlord' where he had failed last time. 

Given that, even when the Heresy was about to start and was instigated by his closest brother Horus, and Typhus and Grulgor could see that Nathaniel Garro would never side with this rebellion, Mortarion gives Garro the benefit of the doubt, and gives him the chance to turn with his legion, showing once again that he is one of the most empathetic primarchs.

Also, shortly at the end, the only reason he turned to Nurgle was that his legion was afflicted but couldn't die, and he felt like once again he was on the hill-top of Barbarus, unable to fell his greatest adversary once again. The suffering of his legion, combined with his inability to defeat his most challenging opponents lead him to desperation for a solution, a solution which Nurgle had in his open hand (Similar to Magnus wishing to save his legion from the Flesh Change).

Just my thoughts anyway! k:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

space cowboy said:


> I really don't have any issue with anything except for the last bit. The base setting, to a neutral observer with no particular rooting interest would classify the Imperium as the 'main character' protagonist with everyone except possibly Eldar and Tau as antagonists and those other two as anti-heroes (while sometimes doing good things, they do oppose the protagonist at times and have methods of which the protagonist would disapprove.)


im not trying alter your opinion but what im just trying to say is that it all depends on how you look at things. to chaos the imperials are the protaganist and visa versa. tau seem like they want to do things better than the imperium so you could look at the imperium as the protaganist in that sense. it just bores down to perspective.

hence my original point of its depends on the perspective of how you look at the primarchs to see which were right in being loyal to the emperor and which were right to side with chaos.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I think the HH books just confirmed what I thought all along. The Emperor was a wanna be god using and abusing his followers with lies and misinformation. He would stagnate the human race under his rule for the betterment of himself. And when his 'children' learned the truth he sent assassins and their other brothers against them. 

Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda. They are going to give you vast amounts of power, mutate you, and further their goals by any means necessary. And they believe in progression and evolution. 

The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics. They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor so when Erebus came along and exposed the lie they rebelled. All for various different reasons. It wasn't just to cause murder and mayhem, it was to undo the empire they had been tricked into building and elevate the one they felt worthy to lead mankind into a new age for the betterment of humanity. Horus. It also shows that the primarchs weren't just automatons. They had feelings, motivations, and personalities. And they also had flaws.

Really, the 40K world is not about good vs evil. Chaos isn't evil. It just simply is. It's like a hungry animal. It does what it has to in order to survive. You can't call a lion evil because it eats a gazel. The Imperium isn't good. It brings slavery, misery, and pain then calls it protection and unity. Really, it's about the choice between two lesser evils. There are no protagonists or antagonists. It totally depends on where you are in the 40K universe. Neither the Imperium or Chaos is gonna let you leave after you join them. Both demand utter loyalty.

To the Eldar humanity as a whole is evil. To the Tau humanity is evil. To humanity those 2 species are evil. Goodness and evil are totally defined by the beholder.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> They may not be possessed, but can you truly say they are free to walk away from service to the dark gods.
> 
> I know I would try, after 10,000 years of service to them I would try to escape, to free my soul and my legion from an eternity of evil.


Again though, you are thinking about this from your current viewpoint. The Primarchs (although never really human in the first place) have been reborn in mind, body and soul as a daemon. They are solely daemons now. That drastically changes their perspective, mentality and priorities.

They (with the possible exception of Magnus, and even that is highly doubtful) do not see themselves as enslaved to the Chaos Gods, they are immortal entities with untold power at their fingertips. They command and send entire armies and worlds to their deaths based on their slightest whims, they have achieved the favour of their patrons, they can do as they wish. If anything they are much more free now than they were under the yolk of the Emperor.

Note Corax's thoughts on why Angron turned in _Raven's Flight_ - for the utter freedom.



MuSigma said:


> Chaos does not teach, it only betrays.


Could quite easily say the same about the Emperor from certain perspectives.



Uilleam said:


> Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda. They are going to give you vast amounts of power, mutate you, and further their goals by any means necessary. And they believe in progression and evolution.
> 
> The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics. They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor so when Erebus came along and exposed the lie they rebelled. All for various different reasons. It wasn't just to cause murder and mayhem, it was to undo the empire they had been tricked into building and elevate the one they felt worthy to lead mankind into a new age for the betterment of humanity. Horus. It also shows that the primarchs weren't just automatons. They had feelings, motivations, and personalities. And they also had flaws.
> 
> ...


Im in agreement for the most part.


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## Souleater1806 (Oct 19, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too.
> obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.
> 
> if you read bloodpact then you get more of a sense of the forces of chaos not being mindless deviants and are just actually following their own beliefs and culture even if it is chaos they worship. when you look at the essence of each chaos god then its nothing that doesnt come natural to man in one way or the other so following them can nearly been seen as normal.


Mankind closest to the essence of chaos? What about the Dark Eldar, they fell to chaos before Mankind even existed.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If anything they are much more free now than they were under the yolk of the Emperor.


Only if by "free" you mean "free to do whatever debased thing your God orders". Being one of the Emperor's warlords is a voluntary and reversible condition. You can quit and leave for parts unknown any time you want, being hunted down for it notwithstanding.

As a Daemon Prince you can't have _your_ body back, it was destroyed when you made the one-way trip to Daemon Prince. You can't have a new body either. Daemons can only possess bodies not join with them the way human souls do, and even if you could how does a Daemon Prince remove the stain of Chaos from its spirit so the body it's being born into doesn't instantly turn to slime in the mother's womb? So you're stuck eternally in the warp with a boss who can strip you of your essence any time it wants, and your mind may not even be your own because who knows what mental programming was added when you were elevated. That's a far more complete form of slavery than any mortal could dream up.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Souleater1806 said:


> Mankind closest to the essence of chaos? What about the Dark Eldar, they fell to chaos before Mankind even existed.


they are closest to the essence of slaanesh seeing as they created it from their own actions.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

the chaos warriors are in thier own minds i supose still fighting the great crusade only now its been warped and tainted by thier centuries in the eye. I read in one book, soul hunter i think that it had only been a couple hundred years while here its been ten thousand years. the crusade is over but they are warriors no matter what side of the fence they sit on chaos or notthey will fight until the end of time, to complete what horus started just noone told them that in reality its a no win situation. 
with chaos no one ever really wins except the thirsting of dark gods


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Uilleam said:


> And when his 'children' learned the truth he sent assassins and their other brothers against them.


That's not true, though. He sent an assassin after Conrad Kurze, when he proved unwilling to cease engaging in horrific activities. Kurze's excuse holds no weight. There's no valid excuse for what he was doing in terms of his means of warfare. He himself only argued against the perceived hypocricy of his father's action. He never had a leg to stand on when it came to someone telling him to _stop._



> Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda.


No they're not.

They absolutely had to poison and brainwash Horus, blackmail Magnus, and possess Fulgrim. There's room to argue that Perturabo was also brainwashed, and Angron was insane to begin with. Neither was the Night Haunter exactly a convert.

Lorgar was the closest thing they had to a genuine convert and...


... in "The First Heretic" they absolutely admit to having to tamper with him from birth...

... in order to achieve even that.



> The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics.


The World Eaters and the Emperor's Children completely lose it by the time Isstvan V rolls around. The Thousand Sons were mutating uncontrollably.

Given all this, I think it was good that...


> They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor ...





> Really, the 40K world is not about good vs evil.


In fact, it's about the so-called "lesser evil"--the moral compromises people undertake and the horrific effects they have on innocents and one's own soul--again the greater evil.



> Chaos isn't evil. It just simply is. It's like a hungry animal. It does what it has to in order to survive. You can't call a lion evil because it eats a gazel.


Chaos is sentient and has an agenda. A lion has neither, survival aside that is.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't agree with that at all. 40k is all about ambiguity and personal interpretation, it's always been that way. If an individual interprets the setting as the Emperor being a mindless tyrant and Chaos being a worthwhile elemental force then thats their interpretation, and it's no less correct than yours or mine.
> 
> Often the Emperor may be portrayed as the 'good guy' but that's merely because most codicies and BL novels are from an Imperial point of view, it doesn't universally make it the case.


While I don't personally agree with the idea of Chaos being a worthwhile force (from the perspective of cost vs. benefit), I do offer a vigorous nod to the second paragraph: it's worth remembering, after all, that the Imperium is described as the bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable, and that the Emperor's own incarnation of it (ref: Great Crusade) didn't really differ _that_ much from it where the actual treatment of subjects was concerned.



Deus Mortis said:


> 1) Similar reason to Angron, his entire existence was focused on toppling the tyrants of Barbarus. He had destroyed, over-thrown and freed the humans from all other warlord. He believed he was invincible, able to breath what no human should be able to, achieving feats no human could, the pinnacle of a kind. The only remaining enemy was his 'father', the man who raised him*. When he reaches the mountain top, he is unable to do the deed he has been building to for years, Imagine being denied his final victory, nothing else is above him, save the one thing he wants, revenge against the oppressive dictator. Then, some stranger snatches his victory from him. There must be huge resentment from Mortarion at this figure for talking the thing he has wanted from the day he has escaped? Would he not feel resentment at not even being allowed to die and avenged, but knowing he is dying and having to watch a stranger take his goal from him.


No offense, but this is as valid as Vulkan turning against the Emperor because he had the "audacity" to pull him off the cliff he was hanging from.

The Emperor didn't snatch Mortarion's victory from him. Mortarion collapsed, unable to continue, because even HE couldn't handle the poisonous gasses at the top of Barbarus' mountains.



> 2) Also, as a side note, consider what kind of a mental complex that must build, his surrogate father was an 'evil' overload, who was not a true human, who oppressed fellow humans whom Mortation felt sympathy for, and the Emperor is...almost exactly the same! The Emperor could be viewed as a tyrant, who exploits his species for his macro goals (and as many have pointed out) and not caring for the individual. Could Mortarion, having seen another person who claims his father and acts exactly as his previous 'father', sought another way to over-throw this new tyrant, and therefore attempted to kill this 'warlord' where he had failed last time.


That would make more sense... all the way until the events of Isstvan III (where Horus proves himself to be a hypocrite) and Isstvan V.



> ... Mortarion gives Garro the benefit of the doubt, and gives him the chance to turn with his legion, showing once again that he is one of the most empathetic primarchs.


"Join me in treason, or die."



I hear you. Ultimately, it's different folks, different strokes/opinions.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well he didn't really give Garro a choice. He subtly figured out whether he would follow Horus or not. He did not once actually outright tell Garro, "We're all rebelling...soooooo you in?" He just decided himself that he wouldn't and sent him to the Eisenstein to be murdered by Grulgor


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> That's not true, though. He sent an assassin after Conrad Kurze, when he proved unwilling to cease engaging in horrific activities. Kurze's excuse holds no weight. There's no valid excuse for what he was doing in terms of his means of warfare. He himself only argued against the perceived hypocricy of his father's action. He never had a leg to stand on when it came to someone telling him to _stop._
> 
> 
> No they're not.
> ...


If you read Soul Hunter, or Lord of the Night, I can't remember which, I believe Konrad talks about his father telling him to use his methods of terror to bring uncompliant worlds into compliance then punishing him for it. I've seen nowhere were it says the Emperor didn't.

Chaos didn't brainwash anyone. Erebus converted Horus more than the ruinous powers. Magnus willingly made a deal with Tzeentch. He didn't know who was dealing with but he wasn't forced. Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4. And the Chaos gods were sought out by the Emperor for creation of the Primarchs. He made a deal with them he had no intention in honoring. Hence why the gods scattered them. So yeah, Lorgar was touched by the gods. All of them were.

Of course the World Eaters were raving lunatics at Isstvan. With their implants would it not be normal to be utterly savage in combat? You don't get worlds to surrender before they have even fought you if don't deserve your reputation. The Emperor's Children fought they way they always do, trying to outperfom everyone else. Seeking perfection. Of course the Thousand Sons were mutating. They were channeling the warp. No one forced them to or tricked them into using sorcery.

Really had the Emperor told his children of the warp and the gods that dwelled within and been honest about what he knew he would have headed the whole thing off. The Emperor hid it from his children to further his own goals. He wasn't trying to spare the primarchs. I'm of the firm belief the Emperor wanted to destroy the Chaos Gods and surplant them. Especially since what mortals feel and believe has power in the warp then with no gods and a whole empire owing fealty to him he would be worshipped and become a new god. Instead of the pile of compost.

Lions seek out other male lions of different prides and murder them and all their offspring. Then take all the females. No agenda huh? :victory:

The one great thing about 40K though is it does make you think. It's not like Star Wars where everything is cut and dry and multiple other sci-fi settings. And it's great to interact with people who have varying opinions because sometimes you learn a different take on the whole thing, that while not in line with your own, is completely plausible. :grin:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Uilleam said:


> If you read Soul Hunter, or Lord of the Night, I can't remember which, I believe Konrad talks about his father telling him to use his methods of terror to bring uncompliant worlds into compliance then punishing him for it. I've seen nowhere were it says the Emperor didn't.


Off the top of my head (please correct me if I'm wrong), "Soul Hunter" and "Lord of the Night" both suggest that the Emperor _sanctioned_ the Night Haunter's actions.

I admit my question amounts to nothing but conjecture, but I'm curious as to whether the Haunter simply abused what lee-way all the Primarchs got in terms of getting compliance. Perhaps it was also a case of "business as usual until someone tells you otherwise". Maybe even "silence equals sanction?" :biggrin:

I mean, unless the Haunter was sharing a battlefield with someone, who exactly was going to report him to the Emperor--the world he just complied?

On the other hand, we know that Dorn flipped out when he saw what the Haunter did (see "The Dark King"), and it would seem that his reports were one of the reasons why he was initially sanctioned.



> Chaos didn't brainwash anyone. Erebus converted Horus more than the ruinous powers.


After Horus was struck by the anatheme and exposed to Chaotic rituals on Davin. His conversion was hardly lucid, never mind informed. :grin:



> Magnus willingly made a deal with Tzeentch. He didn't know who was dealing with but he wasn't forced.


Sure he was. His Legion was re-mutating right in front of his eyes (Tzeentch being the cause for the first round of mutations as well, undoubtedly), his planet was being exploded, and Leman Russ had just struck his eye. On top of all that, Russ was doing what he was doing due to Horus' manipulation. I'd say Magnus was pushed to a corner.

Absolutely nothing prior to the attack on Prospero indicated Magnus wanted (A) to side with Chaos or (B) attack the Emperor.



> Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4.


Come now. Erebus, Kor-Phaeron, Lorgar, and a host of other individuals, were acting on a plan to bring about a dominion of Chaos, and ...


... their plan was one forged after seeking out, contacting, and receiving direction from Chaos, which was actively plotting against the Imperium at least half a decade before Isstvan V--from "The First Heretic".




> And the Chaos gods were sought out by the Emperor for creation of the Primarchs. He made a deal with them he had no intention in honoring. Hence why the gods scattered them. So yeah, Lorgar was touched by the gods. All of them were.


First, that's Chaos' side of things. Second, that they were all touched to some extent is neither here nor there. The point is that they were hardly willing (or sane, in Angron's case) converts.



> Of course the World Eaters were raving lunatics at Isstvan. With their implants would it not be normal to be utterly savage in combat?


Nope, remember "Galaxy in Flames"? Remember Kharn, talking of the "Eight-Fold Path" right before he takes on Loken? Remember Loken talking about how Bizarro Chaos-Kharn was nothing like the man he met on the 'Vengeful Spirit'?



> Of course the Thousand Sons were mutating. They were channeling the warp. No one forced them to or tricked them into using sorcery.


No doubt about that. Hence the Emperor warning Magnus. But there's no denying that Tzeentch was intent on screwing them over all along, without letting them know about it.

What happened there is like the equivalent of your mother telling you not to mess around with drugs; you deciding you're going to experiment with some "harmless" stuff; a stalker loading your supply with radio-active waste and ground glass; and then that same stalker sending a berserke vigilante posse to burn your house down.



> Really had the Emperor told his children of the warp and the gods that dwelled within and been honest about what he knew he would have headed the whole thing off.


Agree to disagree! :biggrin:

Lorgar and his guys...


... went to the Eye of Terror. They literally SAW that Chaos was all about sacrifice, debasement, appeasing MONSTROUS alien creatures, and dealing with gods that made NO EFFORT to conceal the fact that they would demand blood, horrific abuses, etc. And they literally accepted on the grounds that this was all pretty much the truth!


Given that, I can TOTALLY see why the Emperor was trying to keep it all on the down-low. How would it have gone any better had he told _Lorgar_ of all people?

_"Hey buddy... I know I pretty much stand in direct opposition to what you think is paramount in your existence... but I wanted to let you know that there are four super-powerful gods who pretty much are the embodiment of your beloved planet's religion. Please don't seek them out, though, since they're also super-evil. Just take my word for it."_ :grin:

The Emperor's agenda came down to removing the threat of Chaos from Humanity through inhuman means. No one says he was perfect, but I don't see how someone could assert that he was trying propogate his own ambitions.

"The First Heretic" pretty much spells out the 40k correlation between religion and Chaos. The intent would appear to be to remove that easy link/access to Chaos (and vice versa). Lorgar's feelings aside, I don't see how the Emperor's agenda in any way was leading toward self-deification. Had the Imperium not been turned upside-down, witnessed the absolutely demonic, supernatural and otherworldly, and then left with a huge void in its champion ascending to an undying sleep, any effort by the Emperor to secure himself a god-head would have been perceived as massively arrogant.



> Lions seek out other male lions of different prides and murder them and all their offspring. Then take all the females. No agenda huh? :victory:


I suppose, if you consider securing exclusive rights to hunting grounds and breeding groups an agenda... :biggrin:

As to the final paragraph, absolutely. I don't want to come off as heavy-handed or dismissive. It's fun to disagree on this stuff, because it just exposes you to different view points and ideas. 

Cheers,
P.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Nope, remember "Galaxy in Flames"? Remember Kharn, talking of the "Eight-Fold Path" right before he takes on Loken? Remember Loken talking about how Bizarro Chaos-Kharn was nothing like the man he met on the 'Vengeful Spirit'?


It's rather interesting, is it not, how the apparently patient, sane, and _stable_ Kharn we see in _After Deshea_ fully embraces the insanity and instability of Chaos in _Galaxy In Flames_?

We can point to the implants (which the Emperor should have removed or disabled in my opinion) and resentment at the Emperor's disregard for his men as the wedge issues for Angron's fall, but what's Kharn's excuse?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

randian said:


> We can point to the implants (which the Emperor should have removed or disabled in my opinion) and resentment at the Emperor's disregard for his men as the wedge issues for Angron's fall, but what's Kharn's excuse?


(Limited) Loyalty to his primarch, in inner darkness that Khorne exploited, or both?

Such a change of character is not completely out of the question.

Does anybody remember Saix from Kingdom Hearts 2? We see quite a change of character during his first (and only) battle against Sora. 

To me, Kharn is not much different.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Or how about the influence of the Chaplains?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

they say the Word Bearers were chosen by the dark gods for thier unwavering loyalty to their primarch, it wasn't an in-code gene thing it was a genuine love and affirmation to him, couldn't the same be said for Kharn? he alone faced down Angron after De'Shera despite knowing the fates of the other captains that went down to try and placate thier father, despite nearly being killed himself he proved himself to Angron, i would have thought there was a hell of a lot of love for the raging Primarch to put himself through that so maybe Kharn had an unwavering loyalty to his master that matched that of the word bearers to thier father. From reading Galaxy in Flames i think it was, it seemed to me that Kharn was the only one that seemed to be able to calm Angron down when he lost his rag.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Uilleam said:


> Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4


Phobeus countered the rest of your points brilliantly. But on this one, Horus did not give Fulgrim that sword, he found it in the Laeren Temple, where it then slowly began to possess him and twist his mind, shit Horus had almost no hand in turning Fulgrim, at one point he was going to kill Horus until the sword stopped him from doing so.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Or how about the influence of the Chaplains?


apart from the Word Bearers chaplains who became Dark Apostiles i think the traitor leigons scoured the chaplains from thier ranks, but i could be very wrong on this and if someone wants to correct it would be most grateful.
personally i believe that the view of the chaos leigons will change in that there is more insight into why they did what they did and what drove them, wether you agree with it or not it will change how you look at their motives that i think is a certainty.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, but before the Heresy their presence (and influence) was widespread...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well i do remember seeing that all the chaplains apart form the Word Bearer ones were killed in the other Legions, pretty sure it was in the Word Bearers index astartes entry. But the Emperor Children didn't kill all of theirs as evidenced by Charmosian


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, but that's after the Heresy, right?

A key part of the first three Horus Heresy novels is the proliferation of Lodges throughout the Traitor Legions--Lodges largely sponsored by Word Bearers Chaplains (this is reinforced in "The First Heretic").

And that's all I'm saying--that the World Eaters might have had one or more of those Chaplains prior to Isstvan III. Kharn may or may not have received the cerebral implants, but either way the idea of the kind of violence the World Eaters embraced being religious sanctioned/made into an ideal of sorts may very well have been attractive to him.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But if the chaplains turned traitor aswell with their legions why would they need to be cleansed. I had always taken that before they had been wiped out because they likely wouldn't turn from the Emperor and had to be purged


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think it might have to do with the fact that the Traitor Legions weren't exactly honestly dealt with by the Word Bearers and the Chaplains they sponsored.

I mean, Night Haunter's reaction to... 

the possessed Word Bearers on Isstvan V...

... is very telling.

Similarly, I can't imagine the World Eaters and the Emperor's Children listening to someone telling them what to do, when to do it, etc.

The rest might have just been killed off out of bitterness or vindictiveness. That is, rage-killings induced out of frustration/humiliation for losing the Battle of Terra. Or, you know, the unmentioned "side benefits" that came from being in the Eye of Terror... :biggrin:

"Come here you! Let me tell you about how happy I am that I *can't take my freaking helmet off* anymore!!!"

Just guesses!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I think it might have to do with the fact that the Traitor Legions weren't exactly honestly dealt with by the Word Bearers and the Chaplains they sponsored.
> 
> I mean, Night Haunter's reaction to...
> 
> ...


I think that's more exclusive to Haunter and his Night Lords rather than universal across the Traitor Legions. Curze joined the rebellion because of what he percieved as a betrayal on the Emperor's part, not because of the inherent truth that chaos provided which was why Lorgar rebelled (and to an extent some of the other Primarchs).

And if Talos and Sahaal are to believed, Curze despised chaos and seen it as a negative corrupting influence on the Traitor Legions. That would have been why he was so repulsed by the Gal Vorbak.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> AS the HH series shows us more of the tragedies and choices of the Primarchs and their legions that sadly turned to chaos will these new ideas come through to the 40k era and change our ideas and perceptions of the chaos Primarchs and also make writting about them change with it.
> 
> To explain further most CSM books in 40k are pretty much the same in the sense of portraying CSMs as evil madmen with little intelligence like devil possessed zombies in a way. Will they evolve due to the HH series to be more enigmatic, articulate and intelligent, have more depth to their charactors. Less of the frothing at the mouths stuff and more challenging roles.


Most chaos marines in books that don't feature them as key protagonists describe them as fucking retards that always die, bar none. "METAL BOXES. SIIIIINDRIIIIIII"
It's such an awful stigma. I think Dan Abnett, or Graham McNeil are the only people worth a damn when writing about chaos marines. I sincerely think we get a bad rap just because of how awful the fluff around them has become.

But yeah they got astoundingly more three dimensional with the horus heresy. But my favorite part is where the primarchs speak among themselves, to me, hearing their thoughts on the matters at hand is the greatest wealth of information to be gleaned from these books.

That being said I'm sorely hoping Alpharius/Omegon gets to chat more.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> _"Hey buddy... I know I pretty much stand in direct opposition to what you think is paramount in your existence... but I wanted to let you know that there are four super-powerful gods who pretty much are the embodiment of your beloved planet's religion. Please don't seek them out, though, since they're also super-evil. Just take my word for it."_ :grin:
> 
> 
> P.


That literally had me howling! :laugh: 

I'm gonna haveta get on reading the First Heretic/ Fulgrim. Been reading the Soul Drinker Omnibus and various other books and have missed those 2.

I'm kinda ticked at the HH books. While I do really enjoy reading them, as I do all 40K books, some have really painted Chaos as your typical 80s movie bad guy like Waffles said. Really this version of Chaos is NOTHING like the Chaos I read about over 10 years ago. Though they have cast the Emperor in a different light, albeit as complete incompetent asshat would be dictator, I still think Chaos got the short end of the stick. They used to be a group of Legions misused and abused by the so called Emperor. They took a stand against his tyranny and joined Chaos. Was it a wise decision? Maybe not. But they felt abandoned by the Emperor and were forced to act. I guess the biggest difference I note is the Legions weren't 'tricked' as much as some people see it now, but instead made a choice to embrace Chaos in various amounts. Their fall into debauchery and murder didn't happen until after failing to conquer Terra and being forced into exile within the Eye. Where they are forced to survive by fighting amongst themselves for their new masters and for basic needs.

Fast forward to the HH books. Now we have GW painting some of the Legions/Primarchs as simpletons ie Angron. Which really pisses me off but I expect if they released a novel dedicated to the World Eaters, like they have with other legions, and it sheds some favorable light on things, maybe I'd be appeased. And some have actually had their day in the sun. The Night Lords and Alpha Legion really did get a facelift and some more fluff that they so rightly deserved. The Word Bearers have also gotten alot of attention. 

I understand GW wanting the Imperials to seem haughty and impressive, as they are their poster boys, but Chaos got shafted. They went from being misunderstood anti-heroes that you could sympathize with to the frantic madmen some people see them as now. Perhaps I, and others, view their actions differently as we still like to think of Chaos as how we were first introduced to it in the 40K Universe. Maybe without having read the 2nd and 3rd ed codexes I'd feel different. But even with the release of the HH books I still think that the Chaos gods reacted out of defense and survival. The Emperor was a complete nutjob to think he was gonna get away with silencing the 4 most powerful entities in the universe and the Chaos Legions were the result of his failures and not their own. The Emperor is to blame ultimately for the whole thing.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I've never once viewed the forces of chaos or the traitor legions as sympathetic or anti-heroes in any kind of way. If anything its the HH series that is making them appear less evil and a baseless treachery.


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