# Tzeentch Daemons as allies to CSM



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey,

So I am now adapting my Tzeentch Daemon allies to my Tzeentchy CSM list. They are going to get a game per week for the next 7 weeks so it will give them a decent test drive.

Initial ideas:

Herald of Tzeentch with Prescience.

So you can only take 1 of them (apparently) if they are your allied detachment, which sucks, but this still gives some really useful buffs to shooting units such as Havocs, re-rolling to hit there long range high AP weaponary for a very reasonable 45pts. Even perhaps re-rolling to hit for Thousand Sons will be death to MEQ. 

Screamers.

Still a strong unit (same as WD update minus EW), gives some decent anti-tank options in units of 5+, but also I imagine can be pretty good against terminators in assault with that ap2 attack and 4 attacks each on the charge. In this role they actually fill a weakness of Tzeentch list in that they are generally weak in close combat. 
I can foresee them being a good unit to screen those Thousand Sons, using their speed and all those ap2 attacks on the charge to counter those assualty and rapid fire units. 

Pink Horrors

Completely different unit now. I am not overly pleased with what has happened to them, however they did get a huge points reduction and it's the only troop choice we have as Tzeentchians so we have to roll with it...
They do have some Pros though, especially in tangent with Tzeentchian CSM: They are scoring units, they will NOT run away (unlike Cultists), they have some sort of save (unlike Cultists) and now they can be fielded in blobs/swarms. Yes, the primaris Change power is unreliable (deny the witch, perils of the warp, psychic hoods will be a problem) and random, but that applies to pretty much the whole Daemons codex now...So with str 5 ap4 3d6 attacks at 24" for 11-15 Horrors you will average about 11 shots per turn. Not great to say the least, but this costs around 135pts.
They also suck ass in CC. 
But for me, the other two previous points are more important and will affect how I use them: A squad of 15-20 plopped on an objective. Or 10-15 behind an Aegis. They don't need to be joined by an IC to make them pass morale checks (unlike Cultists), they are more durable and they can now go to ground as they do not have the fearless rule. Plant them on an objective in cover, go to ground and get a 4+ or 3+ cover save. 

I am not sure how else to use them at this stage. But I think for 135pts it seems reasonable. They can also act as front line troops. 

I envisage 2 units of x15 horrors deep striking in ahead of my army to cover advancing Thousand Sons squads, then Screamers poised between them reacting to threats as they come. Then possibly a couple of Rhinos with ordinary CSM with melta on each flank (or terminators with LC's, combi-weapons and power axe with MoT deep striking), with Havocs and a Herald of Tzeentch behind an Aegis on a home objective with 10 Cultists in reserve. Then add a Heldrake and you have a list which (on paper at least) can deal with most threats pretty effectively. 

Of course, add Ahriman to the mix with his lvl 4 telepathy shenanigans and infiltrate, and you can infiltrate the above units instead, which is going to be much more reliable (looking at you Terminators). Also, Invisibility will give some excellent options: Casting it on Thousand Sons, Pink Horrors in cover (2+ cover save and anyone who charges you is WS1 makes up slightly for rubbish CC) or even the Screamers will give some excellent buffs. 

Well, I guess we'll see what happens as I playtest this over the next 7 weeks. 

SF


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## Relise (Nov 27, 2011)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Screamers.
> 
> Still a strong unit (same as WD update minus EW), gives some decent anti-tank options in units of 5+, but also I imagine can be pretty good against terminators in assault with that ap2 attack and 4 attacks each on the charge. In this role they actually fill a weakness of Tzeentch list in that they are generally weak in close combat.
> I can foresee them being a good unit to screen those Thousand Sons, using their speed and all those ap2 attacks on the charge to counter those assualty and rapid fire units.
> ...


Just reading through the codex now and one change to Screamers is that they only get 1 Lamphrey's Bite attack each. It has been changed so you swap all normal CC attacks for 1 of the S5 AP2 one's. So that's yet another unit that's not as good as before......:shok:


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Fuck....You are right...

I am seriously just thinking about saying fuck this shit and giving up with Tzeentch Daemons...And honestly its pissed me off so much I may just quit entirely. I will give it a few weeks to see it's remotely workable but I am not hopeful.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I imagine that Prescience Heralds will be nice and chummy with Forgefiends and Heldrakes with HACs (hello viable anti-flier!). And in that vein, I imagine that it'll be standard procedure to have a Soul Grinder in every allied contingent, to spit even more anti-flier shots (while having a higher AV than, having more melee attacks than, and being 50 points cheaper than a Defiler).

That's a respectable allied contingent, wouldn't you say? A high Mastery Level Divination Tzherald in a decent-sized squad of Horrors (claiming an objective or screening 1ksons), plus a Soul Grinder and perhaps a unit of Screamers.

As absurd as it sounds, I can imagine a Daemons mech gunline army: a maxed-out CSM allies contingent of a Warsmith (for repairs/shatter), a Forgefiend, Noise Marines (or 1ksons), a Heldrake and 2 CSM squads, and then a crapload of Tzeentchi Heralds in small Horrors squads, plus Soul Grinders...

The debuff to Screamers hurts, yeah, but I think we all knew it was coming to them and Flamers. Screamers got off lighter of the 2 units, I think: S5+2D6 averages 12 for armor penetration rolls, so a squad of Screamers still presents a realistic threat to tanks, and can still make their slash attack while zooming over infantry.

Still, I'm feeling like a chump for having ordered the Tzeentchi limited edition codex, all right. Once the Throne-damned thing arrives, that is.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Apologise for my drunken 'ragequit' last night above lol

I think it's workable. Will look at possible combinations after work.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree with what you've already mentioned - Screamers suck eggs. Had a tester today (this could be down to my usual terrible rolling however). Boosted them over a squad and killed a terminator much to my approval, only to be shot down the next turn. 

If using them as an allied detachment does the 4 Heralds a HQ choice apply? It says if using as a primary detachment but it seems strange to disallow it. What are your thoughts on the Exalted Flamer Chariot? Proxying for a pair of them worked well but they are just so fragile.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

If their allies RAW state heralds are 1-1. If they could be taken up to 4 I would always take 4 naked HoTs and cast prescience on 2 forgefiends, an autocannon havoc squad and TS or NM.

Everyone would happily pay 6 warp talons for all those rerolls 

That may be a very viable tactic for a slaanesh daemon army actually, pair with many big units of daemonettes and rend like crazy


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Right, well I went with this list tonight at 1000pts for my campaign...

HQ
Ahriman

Fort 
Aegis w/Quad Gun

Troops
x9 Thousand Sons w/Rhino and melta bombs

x10 Cultists

Heavy Support:
Havocs x6 w/x4 lascannons

Daemon Allies

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch 

Troops
x15 Pink Horrors

I tabled black templars by turn 4...Which kind of makes up against my horrendous 7-3 loss last week...

So how did the Daemons do? 

Pink Horrors infiltrated with the Thousand Sons in a rhino via Ahriman's infiltrate warlord trait. Very useful in this case. I put the swarm of horrors mid-field on an objective. I used the Change primaris power with 3D6 assault...rolled a 5, which did nothing. I also rolled a perils of the warp, but we couldn't work out if that meant the whole squad is wiped out (which makes them suck even more) or if it's just 1 wound. But decided just 1 wound since purifiers in GK apparently use that system with perils...

Anyway, their lack of overwatch sucks and they got wiped out by a templar squad with chaplain and emperors champion next turn...

That said, worked great at distracting opponent for 2 turns while my 1ksons came down the other flank, with Ahriman firing psychic attacks at the top hatches...Puppet Master and Tzeentch fire storm was very nice. Then had invisibility for my Thousand Sons squad, which means black templars became all WS1.

Note on Ahriman: 

I fucking love him, and cannot disagree strongly enough with people who say he is overpriced. After using him the past 4 games, I can honestly say his price is very reasonable. He has turned games around for me. 
Telepathy is a fantastic set of psychic attacks, and at level 4 you have a very good chance of rolling for one of the better ones: Invisibility, Hallucination and Puppet Master. 

Invisibility makes a Thousand Son squad absolutely amazing: You can rapid fire your ap3 boltguns and then charge into the survivors (relentless baby!) who have all have WS1! 
Also gives a 2+ cover save...It's filthy. And what is great is that your aspiring sorcerer suddenly has a good chance of winning those challenges. 
Hallucination: Even if you don't get Invisibility, you can still have fun with this...By fun, I mean you can get Thunderhammer and Storm shield terminators to attack each other and annihilate each other...Or suddenly your opponent in close combat cannot make ANY attacks whatsoever...Stack this with Invisibility and they are WS1 too. So free hits for all, hitting on 3's! Absolute filth. 
Puppet Master: Oh look, I just used your meltagun marine to wreck the Land Raider he was stood next too...

Even the Tzeentch primaris power is fairly useful...Soul blaze is actually quite effective despite how everyone seems to be sneering at it online (why?). 

So, Ahriman kind of sucks in close combat, so just attach him to a Thousand Son squad, keep them away from close combat until you've whittled down enough of the enemy to charge. Slow and Purposeful is actually a really really big advantage and something that you should utilise with these guys: AP3 rapid fire, then charge away. With a decent chance of having Invisibility or Hallucination you can make the Thousand Sons a phenomenal unit. 

As for the Herald - Well, Divination for the re-rolls on the lascannon Havocs = a dead land raider on turn 1. Sure, maybe I was lucky, but still...Camped behind an Aegis they let rip on vehicles and skimmers before they could react. Hell, I even moved my havocs and snap fired them all, re-rolling to hit 1 is going to roll a 6 out of 8 dice rolls...Awesome. This will work equally as well with forgefiends and the like as Mossy said above. For 45pts it's an absolute no-brainer and you will see this in every list (that and a Lord of Change...) that includes daemon allies I bet... 

I think I have finally worked out how to operate thousand sons in tangent with tzeentch daemons and Ahriman - Ahriman for me is a key unit to making it work, but also pink horrors as screening units are of equal if not more important. I think you can justify taking two blobs of them simply for a meatshield screening unit: They are extremely unreliable with damage output, but the enemy simply cannot ignore them...Pop them in cover on an objective and go to ground if you must. Get a 4 or 3+ cover save. Or don't. They still get their lacklustre 5++...But the point is, it means you can play an almost imperial guard hammer and anvil list: Pink Horrors are equivalent to infantry blobs (but a little more survivable) which just gives you something your opponent cannot ignore, while your 1ksons in rhinos come up behind them and do the real damage to infantry. 

Of course, horrors with warpflame will mean you are giving your opponent 6+ FNP a lot of the time, but chances are they will die by turn 3 before that become a real problem. 
The beauty here is the enemy is having to use there small arms and rapid fire weapons to deal with the pink horrors, which then leaves gaps for Thousand Sons in Rhinos to sneak into and let rip with those Ap3 boltguns. You are technically eliminating the main threat to your Thousand Sons (rapid fire weapons) by screening them like this, which means you are playing to their strengths. 

Next week the 1500pts games begin so I am looking forward to seeing what the other Tzeentch units can do. 

SF


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

Horrors have brotherhood of sorcerers, so perils are against the upgraded character, if there is one, or a random model.

In reading on the heralds, it doesn't explicitly state you only take one in an allied detachment. 

"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four..." The second sentence identifies the first, saying four heralds are a single HQ. 

I expect a faq will come out either allowing 4 heralds are always a single choice or 2 in allied lists at least. I just keep reading the entry and get the impression(possibly wrong!) that you can always take 4 heralds as a single HQ per force organization chart. 0-4 up to 1999 points as a single HQ, and 0-8 at 2000 and over as a single HQ.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Sounds like a fun battle!



Straken's_Fist said:


> Invisibility makes a Thousand Son squad absolutely amazing: You can rapid fire your ap3 boltguns and then charge into the survivors (relentless baby!) who have all have WS1!
> Also gives a 2+ cover save...It's filthy. And what is great is that your aspiring sorcerer suddenly has a good chance of winning those challenges.
> Hallucination: Even if you don't get Invisibility, you can still have fun with this...By fun, I mean you can get Thunderhammer and Storm shield terminators to attack each other and annihilate each other...Or suddenly your opponent in close combat cannot make ANY attacks whatsoever...Stack this with Invisibility and they are WS1 too. So free hits for all, hitting on 3's! Absolute filth.


I'm glad you can make them work, and I may well play with them (adequately supported, of course) in some of my own games, but I'm going to stick to my guns and say that a squad relying on getting a random roll to make them effective isn't as good as an effective squad who is buffed to super-effectiveness by that same power, if received. And Puppet Master and the kill-each-other aspect of Hallucination are nice, and all, but have nothing to do with synergizing with 1ksons.

Look at bikers, for instance: not scoring or AP3, but are waaay faster, cheaper (before marks, which are even larger performance boosters in their own way), have higher Toughness, get about the same cover save as 1ksons have inv, can Overwatch, and are waaay better on the assault--and they, too can do that Invisibility+Relentless+charge combo, with twin-linked bolters and Hammer of Wrath and CCW+BP attacks to boot. They're just... a more purely effective unit in practically every way, my eyes. Just as an example, but a convincing one, I think.

Not meaning to rain on your parade; I really am glad that mono-Tzeentch is a viable list build.



> Even the Tzeentch primaris power is fairly useful...Soul blaze is actually quite effective despite how everyone seems to be sneering at it online (why?).


A 50% chance for D3+1 bolter hits (that can't stack with each other) on the next turn? Oh boy! Let me just see how many craps I give... oh right, none.

Though that primaris power _does_ seem pretty cool, for all that I haven't had the chance to use it yet.


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

Mossy Toes said:


> Though that primaris power _does_ seem pretty cool, for all that I haven't had the chance to use it yet.


Still waiting? If so, I'm sorry to hear that.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Heh, yeah. I think it's partially that my mailing address and living address aren't the same thing; I'm waiting on a family member, so can't rush around the house with glee screaming when it arrives but am waiting on their report out that it's arrived.

Still, I was (and I think Straken was too) talking about the CSM Tzeentch primaris power, not the Daemons Tzeentch primaris power.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> Sounds like a fun battle!
> 
> I'm glad you can make them work, and I may well play with them (adequately supported, of course) in some of my own games, but I'm going to stick to my guns and say that a squad relying on getting a random roll to make them effective isn't as good as an effective squad who is buffed to super-effectiveness by that same power, if received. And Puppet Master and the kill-each-other aspect of Hallucination are nice, and all, but have nothing to do with synergizing with 1ksons.
> 
> ...


I think saying that it has nothing to do with synergising with sons is a bit unfair, because it makes their rapid fire with AP3 followed by assault against WS1 all the more effective, at least in the context of MEQ...Of course making your opponent WS1 is great for any unit, but for dudes who can rapid fire ap3 I am saying it is really great (especially against marines), because it really is, especially if you are coming up against an army that is so strong in assault like templars and blood angels are...

But sure, you are absolutely right, I am sure Bikers are more efficient and a better unit. But I am finding the Thousand Sons - at least in my opinion - are just infinitely more fun.  That's what it boils down too.

So this thread I am dedicating to Tzeentch lists and what I am learning with each game over the next 6 weeks. Of course, please do continue to critique the crap out of my posts as I love hearing your alternative suggestions, even if they are un-Tzeentchy ;-). 

Just accept though that I am borderline obsessive about Tzeentch (check out my project log below which is going to expand greatly over the next few weeks too!) lol So I don't really care much if a unit can do it better and/or cheaper: Because I am stubborn and have poured so much time and energy to trying to stay true to fluff and making it work in a semi-competitive environment too. 

I actually like the randomness of rolling on the psychic telepathy table, it can sometimes mean I luck out and get hallucination and invisibility together, other times I am just left with Puppet Master...But maybe I am just flukey because I have got one or more of them in all 4 or 5 games I have used him in?...
I personally dig this high-risk strategy and find it very Tzeentchy :-D. If that makes me a non-competitive player than so be it. I think the fun of trolling people with hallucination and puppet master overrides everything else. Try it, you might like it.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> Heh, yeah. I think it's partially that my mailing address and living address aren't the same thing; I'm waiting on a family member, so can't rush around the house with glee screaming when it arrives but am waiting on their report out that it's arrived.
> 
> Still, I was (and I think Straken was too) talking about the CSM Tzeentch primaris power, not the Daemons Tzeentch primaris power.


Well, hope you get it soon...All I can about it is: "Chaos is fickle". I was horrified at first but I think once you accept it was built to be a fun codex you can start to get your head around it and laugh at the ridiculous of it (it's Chaos, after all). That's how I feel now anyway. 

And yeah the Tzeentch powers are called 'Change' powers in the Daemons dex to distinguish them from the CSM one I guess..


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I think saying that it has nothing to do with synergising with sons is a bit unfair, because it makes their rapid fire with AP3 followed by assault against WS1 all the more effective, at least in the context of MEQ


Sorry if my post was unclear, I probably should have spliced this into a different paragraph, but I said:



Mossy Toes said:


> And Puppet Master and the kill-each-other aspect of Hallucination are nice, and all, but have nothing to do with synergizing with 1ksons.


Invisibility? Wonderful on 1ksons; I know this in theory and I know it from your joyous soap-boxing. Incredibly synergistic. Not trying to deny that (rather self-evident) fact.

Keep the faith, brave changeling.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

lol Joyous soap boxing... 
I can't help it when i've invested so much time into this it feels good to actually be winning games...just as the Architect of Fate has planned.


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