# So ... The 'New' Fulgrim? (spoilers for The Primarchs)



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I'm just curious what the consensus opinion is regarding the new fluff surounding Fulgrim in the book _The Primarchs_.

Do you guys believe that Fulgrim really has retaken control of his body?

If so, what do you guys think?



Personally, I think it is an awful twist and feels like a cop-out if its true (which it seems to be).

I like the fact that one of the traitor Primarchs was totally expunged from his body and replaced by a daemon. It really fitted Fulgrims fall, and to me at least, seemed like a very Slanneshi punishment.

Plus the revelation calls into question the info we got from _Aurelian_ where it was believed Fulgrim had ceased to exist entirely.

Then again, mayve its all a clever ruse and merely the daemon protecting itself from having its true nature revealed.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I thought it was really stupid (if it's true).

I'm hoping it's just the daemon pretending to be Fulgrim to satisfy his men's suspicions.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

In Aurelian, which is set immediately after Istvaan V, Fulgrim is clearly trapped in the painting.
In The Primarchs he has regained control over his body and trapedd the daemon in the painting. (That is what he says, anyway but i think it's true because the conversation he has with himself wouldn't make much sense otherwise)


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

That's what were led to believe...by a daemon. Do I trust everything Daemon's say? Nope. Did Fulgrim want torturing, taken to new heights of pleasure by his men to show is fealty to Slaanesh and ascend to Daemon-Prince-Hood? I think maybe...


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lucius and the others got hoodwinkled clearly, the daemon pulling a fast one on them by pretending to be the real Fulgrim.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> That's what were led to believe...by a daemon. Do I trust everything Daemon's say? Nope. Did Fulgrim want torturing, taken to new heights of pleasure by his men to show is fealty to Slaanesh and ascend to Daemon-Prince-Hood? I think maybe...





Brother Lucian said:


> Lucius and the others got hoodwinkled clearly, the daemon pulling a fast one on them by pretending to be the real Fulgrim.



That's really the most troubling aspect.

Clearly in the novel _Fulgrim_, Fulgrim was tricked into giving his body over to the Daemon in the Laer sword.

He may have exhibited some early Slaaneshi traits, but they were never really concious choices. 

If he were to really get his body back, then surely he wouldn't worship Slaanesh, as why would you worship a diety who's daemon stole your body, and locked you away in the inner most part of your own mind so he could laugh at you for eternity?

Its just to sudden a switch, and is done in a novel that isn't exactly going to be remembered as one of the core novels of the series, unlike _Fulgrim_ IMO.

So I'm guessing it has to be the Daemon just throwing suspicious minds within the Legion off the scent, so to speak.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The daemon did do all that but it also probably showed him sensations beyond his wildest dreams. And it seems now that Fulgrim's mind has been warped beyond recognition. After a Daemon doing what he did to Fulgrim for that long, I don't think one can really be considered sane.

One of the sensations I think that was focussed upon was "betrayal" itself. Fulgrim got high from betraying his favorite brother, and he also seemed to be enjoying it to some sense when Fulgrim's own legionairies betrayed him.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> That's really the most troubling aspect.
> 
> Clearly in the novel _Fulgrim_, Fulgrim was tricked into giving his body over to the Daemon in the Laer sword.
> 
> ...


The only reason i can see to worship slaanesh after a slaanesh daemon stole your body, is to gain the power to f*ck up that daemon. Fulgrim, pre or post heresy wouldn't allow a daemon to posses him and would want to take revenge. Why not submit to slaanesh, get some power and trap the daemon that stole your body? He's already killed a brother and commited to chaos. This is the only reason i can see, but yeah i think its a Daemon messing with minds.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Daemons gets pleasure by controlling their hosts. A Daemon Prince of Slaanesh... (Fulgrim) probably has the same satisfaction putting a daemon behind bars.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well Lorgar did threaten to tear the Daemon a new one unless he gave Fulgrim's body back.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I completely agree with Tabbytomo on this one. Likely once Fulgrim got his body back and mud-stomped the daemon trying to control him he had the oppurtunity to look at the situtation. His Legion was already far, far too gone for him to restore it to the Emperor's Light. He'd already helped massacre three of his father's legions (Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands) and killed a Primarch.

There really isn't any going back and he knows that. Maybe while he was trapped, Slannesh worked his magic on him and convinced him that voluntary servitude was more perferable to being trapped within your own body and tortured by a daemon.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well Lorgar did threaten to tear the Daemon a new one unless he gave Fulgrim's body back.


Another good point also, at heresy point Lorgar started getting hard. After beating down a bloodthirster, I think slaaneshy daemon may have listened.


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## Stig'sPrimarchCousin (Sep 29, 2011)

Just an idea which I think would be pretty cool. Fulgrim does take over his body and is still loyal but he plays along not to rouse suspicion until he gets a one on one audience with Horus. He then reveals himself to be the real Fulgrim in an attempt to bring him down using the Warmasters own favourite tactic (speartip) I imagined it something like this:

Fulgrim:Brother...its been too long.
Horus:Your not my brother warp filth, remember that. You only exist because I allow it.
Fulgrim:*ignores comment* I say _brother_, I rather hate what youve done with the place, so far from perfection, so below the teachings of _our father_....*looks at Horus with a geniune sad face*
Horus:Fulgrim...?
Fulgrim:*places his hand on the aquila on his shoulder and and he smiles, crying* For the Emperor and Ferrus!! *unsheathes Fireblade and charges*

I know I'm not a great writer but that scene gives me goosebumps. Anyway, after having a pretty awesome but short fight Horus subdues Fulgrim and using physhic powers (thanks chaos gods) knocks him out, allowing the daemon back in. He then instructs the daemon to kill Fulgrim completely, saying hes too much of a risk, even stuck in the painting. 

So what do you think?


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

outlandish but I enjoy it, I mean I love nearly all brother-brother encounters, especially the naughty chaos brothers and it would be cool, probably just too out-there for the HH. Why not carry on writing from there, see what happens differently because of that little bit of text you just made up. You'll be surprised where your brain takes you..


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Dont forget Fabius' comment about Fulgrim's body changing to something else.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> Another good point also, at heresy point Lorgar started getting hard. After beating down a bloodthirster, I think slaaneshy daemon may have listened.


The battle with An'ggrath the Unbound happened decades before the Heresy, and before Fulgrim's possession. Do you honestly think a daemon would have relinquished potentially one of the greatest prizes in the galaxy (the possession of a Primarch) because he was threatened?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The battle with An'ggrath the Unbound happened decades before the Heresy, and before Fulgrim's possession. Do you honestly think a daemon would have relinquished potentially one of the greatest prizes in the galaxy (the possession of a Primarch) because he was threatened?


I don't think it's the battle with An'ggrath that's the true turning point. Lorgar didn't start properly kicking ass until Corax had him on the end of his claw and Lorgar eventually recognised his actual power. 

Coupled with the fact Lorgar was very much the key conduit between the traitors and the chaos gods at that stage a long with his very intimate knowledge chaos he seems to have, I think a Daemon who has already done his job would probably bend the knee before him and give him his brother back safe in the knowledge Fulgrim has no choice but to listen to the Daemon now. Plus imo an actual Primarch in charge of his body following chaos is more powerful than a daemon who is using the body as a puppet.

Then again that's just my view of the situation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think it's the battle with An'ggrath that's the true turning point...


I never said it was...


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I honestly hope that the real Fulgrim coming back is a lie, the rapid devolution of the legion, the abandonment of the hunt for complete perfection, it just doesn't add up. Yes Fulgrim could change but completely abandon everything hes ever stood for? None of the other primarchs change anywhere near that amount. 

The original version also made the primarchs story unique and tragic.

The strangest thing about the story is I liked Lucius, a character I genuinely loathed from "Fulgrim" simply because he doesn't change, or forget who he is


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I never said it was...


What I mean is you referenced the fight they had stating it was decades earlier, I was merely saying that that fight probably doesn't have any bearing on the reason why daemon decided to give up Fulgrim, that's all  but then I added what I thought was a possible reason.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Barnster said:


> I honestly hope that the real Fulgrim coming back is a lie, the rapid devolution of the legion, the abandonment of the hunt for complete perfection, it just doesn't add up. Yes Fulgrim could change but completely abandon everything hes ever stood for? None of the other primarchs change anywhere near that amount.
> 
> The original version also made the primarchs story unique and tragic.
> 
> The strangest thing about the story is I liked Lucius, a character I genuinely loathed from "Fulgrim" simply because he doesn't change, or forget who he is


This is pretty much what I wanted to say, only less eloquently. The way that the ECs go so completely batshit crazy after Isstvan V is such a break from what they were before that it doesn't sit comfortably. 

I also felt that the way Fulgrim 'loses' his body at the end of the eponymous book was written in a very final way, and to suddenly turn round and say 'oh yes he just got his body back somehow' is pretty weak. I can buy that he went nuts while locked in the painting, but not that he got out so quickly.

Lucius did come across as weirdly sympathetic, given what a monumental arse he is. I thought it was interesting that he and Fabius, who were probably the most 'chaotic' when they were loyal, seemed far more level-headed than the likes of Kaosoron and Vairosean, who seemed to have fallen much further.

I'm sure it'll all become clear in time!


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I was hoping for an actual EC-extraction of the daemon from the body and forcing back Fulgrim where he will have learned from this experience, only to start on the path to Slaanesh. It felt kinda weak as many said, that it happened off-screen without any effort kind off. But now we know he is on the path to daemonhood, just like Lorgar, Magnus and Angron is.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

yeh i very much doubt Mr.McNeil hasn't got this planned out, he knows how perfect Fulgrim was, he signed it 'the perfect book' when i met him, a play on the legion i know, but he's definately got something up his sleeve here!


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> yeh i very much doubt Mr.McNeil hasn't got this planned out, he knows how perfect Fulgrim was, he signed it 'the perfect book' when i met him, a play on the legion i know, but he's definately got something up his sleeve here!


I don't know to be honest, it seems really 'meh' to me. Plus I can't get over such a big piece of info was handled in a short story.

The whole thing doesn't sit too well with me I'm afraid.

On the plus side, more Lucius (eventually 'The Eternal') is always a serious plus in my book.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Fulgrim knew he was screwed. He came too and realized that only Horus had trumped his crimes compared to the others. He'd killed a primarch and crippled multiple legions along with the others. Before he turned, remember, Horus did convince him of The Emperor's lies.If you remember in Fulgrim, he broke down crying and saying that he'd always wanted to be like him. His faith shattered, branded a traitor to be killed on site, and his legion turned he made the only logical decision. That decision was to up the ante and kill Roboute Gulliman. You can be the guy who killed one primarch, betrayed his father, and helped cripple legions. Or you can be the guy who killed 2 primarchs, betrayed his fathers, and helped cripple legions.

Might as welll go to hell with a real wrap sheet.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Tywin Lannister said:


> This is pretty much what I wanted to say, only less eloquently. The way that the ECs go so completely batshit crazy after Isstvan V is such a break from what they were before that it doesn't sit comfortably.
> 
> I also felt that the way Fulgrim 'loses' his body at the end of the eponymous book was written in a very final way, and to suddenly turn round and say 'oh yes he just got his body back somehow' is pretty weak. I can buy that he went nuts while locked in the painting, but not that he got out so quickly.
> 
> ...


 
Lucius was my favorite character in Fulgrim and I liked a lot in reflection cracked. He always appeared bad in his own way in Fulgrim, but more for his own needs...not because he was getting turned by chaos. Kaerosan was straight up going nuts while he was killing Santar..and gradually turned during the whole book. I felt reflection started off perfect, with all the others captains completely warped and Lucius pretty much teh same. Obsessed with being perfect and out for himself.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I actually do kind of hope Fulgrim has some grand plan that suits his style. Who is to say that perhaps he did achieve true perfection by casting out this daemon in some way, shape, or form -- probably told to us in later books. Imagine this -- Fulgrim gets his body back and looks upon the shambles of his Legion.

They are Slaaneshi dedicated, wretched things that are damned -- I'd imagine Fulgrim wouldn't be looking for a way to solve the problem ... he'd be looking to get even. No doubt after being imprisoned and tormented he'd have had a life-changing series of thoughts were he realized how foolish he had been. It'd cost him his Legion, a brother, and his quest for perfection.

Therefore -- why not push his own Legion's collapse all the more? Why not push them further into the depths of madness, break their cohesion, take from Chaos the gift of his Legion's capabilities are a 'real' fighting force. Remember, we all know the Emperor's Children did not partake in the assault on the Palace itself -- they ran amok with the civilians and common folk of Terra -- trying to sate their desires.

Imagine if they had, in fact, really taken part in the Siege as Horus no doubt wanted of them. Maybe they could have been the deciding force that pushed the edge of Horus' blade into the Emperor's throat long before their confrontation on the Vengeful Spirit. 

I can see Fulgrim being like that. Pushing his Legion into disrepair and collapse, urging them to sate their bloodlust and sadism on common folk therefore hindering Horus' chances of victory, and once the Emperor was in fact no actually killed -- well the only thing left to do is allow them to shatter and collapse. The World Eaters attacking them on that ice-ball of a world was only the final nail in the coffin for a legion long since lost to their own madness. Yes, Fulgrim came back and killed Guilliman and that is a major problem with my whole theory -- but you have to admit it does sound like a Fulgrim thing to do.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Fluff changes authors screw around. I am sure they mean for the change in Fulgrims situation to be legitimate. Not overly a fan of the idea, but realistically 1000+ years is a long fucking time, he was bound to get his body back sooner or later. What I am hoping for is that they run with the idea and eventually advance the character so its a ongoing struggle between the two. Or at least flesh out what his plans are now.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> Imagine if they had, in fact, really taken part in the Siege as Horus no doubt wanted of them. Maybe they could have been the deciding force that pushed the edge of Horus' blade into the Emperor's throat long before their confrontation on the Vengeful Spirit.


That's the thing though, I would have prefered it if he had remained possessed by the Daemon. It would have made prfect sense. Horus is off attacking the Emperor, and the Daemon is thinking "What do I care? I'm going to have some fun with these helpess mortals".



LukeValantine said:


> Fluff changes authors screw around. I am sure they mean for the change in Fulgrims situation to be legitimate. Not overly a fan of the idea, but realistically 1000+ years is a long fucking time, he was bound to get his body back sooner or later. What I am hoping for is that they run with the idea and eventually advance the character so its a ongoing struggle between the two. Or at least flesh out what his plans are now.


Yeah, but why was the change instituted in the first place. The 'new' fluff that had him possessed by a daemon was much more tragic, and IMO alot cooler as it made him uniquely distinct from all the other Primarchs.

Also, why did he have to get his body back? He could have remained trapped for eternity, screaming and tormented, the mere plaything of a daemon, and he would know that it was his own hubris that put him in that situation. Very, cool, and very tragic IMO. 

I guess my point is, what have we gained by having him regain his body? It just makes _Fulgrim _seem like a bit of a waste of time. Plus what's wors, is we had the prospect of both Horus and Lorgar wanting to 'free' Fulgrim, but essentially stalling because of the ongoing Heresy. So its even more tragic, because Fulgrim could have potentially have been set free by his brothers, but because they lost, the oppurtunity never arose. 

Like I said, and I know I've repeated myself a few times on this point, but Fulgrim has gone from tragic to generic in the space of a short mediocre story.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

What he said!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

They probably have some plan for him in the upcoming fluff or csm codex. That would explain the about face on the narrative about what happened to him, hell it may be a sign that the EC will get more attention in the upcoming fluff. Mind you this is just speculation, but similar about faces in the fluff have marked a intended change in the narrative or codecies.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Im going to add my support for _D-A-C'_s opinion, such a u-turn seems illogical and a poor plot point as it stands. I'll wait to see where they are going with this first though. It does seem to rob _Fulgrim_ of a sense of its tragedy.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I still believe the daemon possesses Fulgrim.

I reckon Lucius realised the daemon was still present and actually allowed it to go free. Mainly because he always wanted that fight with the Primarch but never actually got it. Would be nice to see.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Huh I think it fits better of Fulgrim a Primarch of Perfection kicking the daemon to the core. Also Fulgrim was already sort of twisted waaaay before the Daemon took over his body. So he just continue to remain twisted.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

GM has a way of putting weird plots to solve them later. As he had said about The Outcast Dead for example, the plothole about the time-mix up, will be explained later. This might be one of those things which will return in the Angel Exterminatus. One thing I noticed is that all 4 shorts are linked one way or another.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Lucius: Guys, guys listen! I've studied the Primarch intensely and he's not Fulgrim!

Fabius and others: You're right, something is wrong, let's get our Primarch back!

Lucius: Haha, whoops, JK guys, that actually is Fulgrim.


:headbutt:

Does anyone else think this is a tad... odd?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think it was a useless tale to rob the overall mythos of a modicum of horror and tragedy that existed for this primarch. They succeeded in making Lucius look inept and telling an unconvincing story of how Fulgrim regained control. The story of how Vandred regained his momentary control was a whole lot better in the Night Lord series. The BL is starting to show more and more lack of imagination. This story was crap and ruined the story that Fulgrim told, which in my opinion was one of the best novels in the series. Good job.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't think Fulgrim has been in control of his body since Isstvan V, or maybe even before. It may be him in the painting but if is not that dose not say that he is in control of his body. I think maybe there are Two daemons fighting for control of his body. The first, and i think the one in the painting, was what tainted him from the Laeren blade that Lucius has now. The one in control is from the blade that almost killed Horus.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I don't think Fulgrim has been in control of his body since Isstvan V, or maybe even before. It may be him in the painting but if is not that dose not say that he is in control of his body. I think maybe there are Two daemons fighting for control of his body. The first, and i think the one in the painting, was what tainted him from the Laeren blade that Lucius has now. The one in control is from the blade that almost killed Horus.


Nope, I'm afraid your explanation isn't really a possibility. It was clearly one Daemon that was in possession of Fulgrim, the Daemon from the Laeren sword.

The Anatheme blade which struck down Horus, may in fact be a Daemonic Weapon, but it is not trying to escape from the blade in the same manner as the Laeren Daemon. It appears to be a perfect synthesis of high technology and chaos.

If you read the story again, it is at times confusing, but the way it seems to be structured is that the Laeren Daemon is the one now in the painting, and that Fulgrim has in fact got his body back.

As I think most people have been suggesting, it is a really bad idea, and worse, its not even done in an interesting fashion.

Essentially this short story undoes essentially evrything that made Fulgrim unique both as a novel and as a character

Which really, really sucks IMO.


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

The most absurd element for me was when Lucius obliterated the so called elite guards to the room holding the picture as if they were squats.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

thebinman said:


> The most absurd element for me was when Lucius obliterated the so called elite guards to the room holding the picture as if they were squats.


Lucius is handy with a blade, to be fair...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

A bit of an understatement. Every Astartes is pretty "handy with a blade." Lucius is a virtual artist with a sword. I'm in no way surprised he handled the guards as easily did. He sought perfection in one thing only: his swordsmanship. He trained relentlessly to attain perfection and pushed it further still. After Loken beat him initially he went back and trained harder. In the rematch he defeated Loken in a matter of moments. I doubt many other Astartes in the Legions can match him. In the book it said the only thing he thought could truly challenge him was a berserker like one of the World Eaters, someone like Kharn.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> A bit of an understatement. Every Astartes is pretty "handy with a blade." Lucius is a virtual artist with a sword. I'm in no way surprised he handled the guards as easily did. He sought perfection in one thing only: his swordsmanship. He trained relentlessly to attain perfection and pushed it further still. After Loken beat him initially he went back and trained harder. In the rematch he defeated Loken in a matter of moments. I doubt many other Astartes in the Legions can match him. In the book it said the only thing he thought could truly challenge him was a berserker like one of the World Eaters, someone like Kharn.


 
Which book was the re-match between Loken and Lucius in?

I need to read this one I think


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> In the book it said the only thing he thought could truly challenge him was a berserker like one of the World Eaters, someone like Kharn.


People will insist Sigismund can beat him

Furthermore, Lucius has been beaten plenty of times (by Lord Cyrius and others)


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> A bit of an understatement. Every Astartes is pretty "handy with a blade." Lucius is a virtual artist with a sword. I'm in no way surprised he handled the guards as easily did. He sought perfection in one thing only: his swordsmanship. He trained relentlessly to attain perfection and pushed it further still. After Loken beat him initially he went back and trained harder. In the rematch he defeated Loken in a matter of moments. I doubt many other Astartes in the Legions can match him. In the book it said the only thing he thought could truly challenge him was a berserker like one of the World Eaters, someone like Kharn.


Or given what Varren says about Cerberus, Loken would win the tie breaker....


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

Tywin Lannister said:


> Lucius is handy with a blade, to be fair...


Agreed, but against six of the elite?! Without a nick? :scare:

...we see a while later that the primarch himself takes a wound from a group melee...


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I think I have to agree with the sentiment that Lucius got off a little too easily in the fight.

We know that he is arguably one of the best swordsman amongst ALL Space Marines, as he was also able to defeat Erebus, and has generally been set up as that type of character. Were he usually falls down is over-confidence, and so this was why he lost to Loken, and why he was unable to kill his friend Saul Tarvitz.

But ... he was a little too handy during this fight. As has been said, it was kind of conveyed that he barely broke a sweat, which begs the question of how 'Elite' they were, or just how awesome Lucius is being built up to be.

But I think this just might be one of those moments that lots of Black Library novelssuffer from, that is, making a character overcome a realitively difficult situation with extreme ease, in order to attempt to adequately convey that characters abilities.

The problem with scenes like these though is that they go too far, and actually make the character seem silly. 

The perfect example of course be Draigo. Who is the poster boy for that style of writing.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Or it could be that the Phoenix Guards were all stoned off their tits, it had been party time for a while for the ECs...


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Or it could be that he is in the possession of a Daemon weapon. I think the thing in the Laeren sword is sharing some of its power with Lucius, while it takes over his body like it tried with Fulgrim.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> I think I have to agree with the sentiment that Lucius got off a little too easily in the fight.
> 
> We know that he is arguably one of the best swordsman amongst ALL Space Marines, as he was also able to defeat Erebus


Is Erebus a great swordsman? When did this happen?



> But ... he was a little too handy during this fight. As has been said, it was kind of conveyed that he barely broke a sweat, which begs the question of how 'Elite' they were, or just how awesome Lucius is being built up to be.
> 
> But I think this just might be one of those moments that lots of Black Library novelssuffer from, that is, making a character overcome a realitively difficult situation with extreme ease, in order to attempt to adequately convey that characters abilities.
> 
> The problem with scenes like these though is that they go too far, and actually make the character seem silly.


I totally agree with what you've said. It's called [email protected] a character


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't think the phoenix guard are the best of the best because of their ability. Of all legions pre heresy there seems to have been a lot of politics at play within the legion, Eidolen wasn't seen as the best fighter and was generally loathed but was a high ranking captain, because the primarch liked him

I think Lucius would have won, the phoenix guard were arrogant, and not really expecting him to do what he did, it came close in several places and i imagine the way the fight was fought was more of a series of 1v1 rather than a a unit vs 1


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

All these excuses, [email protected] is [email protected]


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Nope, I'm afraid your explanation isn't really a possibility. It was clearly one Daemon that was in possession of Fulgrim, the Daemon from the Laeren sword.


Fulgrim no longer has that sword. The daemon in it is affecting Lucius who dose have it. Giving him dreams that Astartes are not supposed to have.


D-A-C said:


> The Anatheme blade which struck down Horus, may in fact be a Daemonic Weapon, but it is not trying to escape from the blade in the same manner as the Laeren Daemon. It appears to be a perfect synthesis of high technology and chaos.


The words perfect and Chaos don't mix. When Fulgrim is talking to his reflection even he thinks the Sword may be the source. Once he figures it is the Laeren Daemon he sheathes the Anathema. 



D-A-C said:


> If you read the story again, it is at times confusing, but the way it seems to be structured is that the Laeren Daemon is the one now in the painting, and that Fulgrim has in fact got his body back.


You are right that the Laeren Daemon seems to be in the painting but that dose not mean Fulgrim has any control. The fact that Lucius who now has the Laeren sword is drawn to the picture says that to me. To think that Fulgrim is back in control even though his body is Mutating like what happens when you get possessed is crazy. Fulgrim was weak and now his body is the host to what ever daemon is strong enough to hold it


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, I finally got around to reading this story and I have to agree with D-A-C. It's extremely lame having Fulgrim suddenly be back in control just because he's awesome like that and booted the daemon out when he got bored of sharing. Totally ruins the effect of _Fulgrim_ and the death of Ferrus Manus. 

It also doesn't really mesh for me. Fulgrim was absolutely distraught over what he'd done to Ferrus, but now he's like "Nah, fuck that I guy, I never actually cared that I killed him..." Also, what's with giving him Tzeentch-like powers? I'd expect something more along the lines of overwhelming your enemies senses or frying their synapses as opposed to bringing about uncontrolled mutations.

Also, the way the legion reacts is downright stupid in my opinion. 
"Oh no, he's not the real Fulgrim."
"Are you sure?"
"Yeah, positive."
"We must do something. Let the torture begin."
*pointless torture*
"Oops, my bad, it was actually him all along."

Throughout that whole torture sequence I kept picturing:









@ Lord Lorne Walker: As for Lucius, the fact that he is drawn to the painting after he gets the sword to me reinforces that the daemon is stuck there without control. Perhaps it's trying to lure him there so that it can use him as a new host. Also, you can mutate without being possessed. Just look at the Thousand Sons. Or Sanguinius for that matter. I liken Fulgrim's mutations to daemonic gifts loyal servants of the chaos gods recieve on their way to daemonic ascension. Mutation because of possession usually tends to happen much quicker. Just look at the Luna Wolf from _Horus Rising_ (I forgot his name).


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Someone wrote on Facebook that fans has complained for a long time that Fulgrim was tricked by a sword into all this, so they imagined that was what Graham was trying to fix, that Fulgrim was behind all this. I stand by my point a perfect explanation will arrive soon, this was meant as a teaser and we will see how he rgained his body.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Gret79 said:


> Which book was the re-match between Loken and Lucius in?
> 
> I need to read this one I think


 

I want to say Fulgrim or in whatever book covers Istavaan. It was pretty brief. The setting was it was over in a few strokes. Also I think that after becoming Cerberus that Loken would probably be able to handle Lucius as killing zombies day in and out for such a long period of time while holding down an entire planet would raise your skill level. Also yes Lucius might lose to Sigismund. I would also say now that Lucius enjoys the experiance of dying so for a masochist, I can't say that all those losses were due to skill deficencies. He may have wanted to have the experiance of death and then taking over a foes body. Who knows?


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Ever seen Inception? 

Some guy at the local GW had a discussion with the manager about this a week ago. His thought that the demon had Fulgrim and his warriors believe Fulgrim was in control.

I didn't quite follow the debate but the movie inception was mentioned like a dozen times.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Sangus Bane said:


> Ever seen Inception?
> 
> Some guy at the local GW had a discussion with the manager about this a week ago. His thought that the demon had Fulgrim and his warriors believe Fulgrim was in control.
> 
> I didn't quite follow the debate but the movie inception was mentioned like a dozen times.



I always felt Lucius and company was too eager to believe any reasurance of their primarch being back in control. I still think they got hoodwinkled royally.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> I always felt Lucius and company was too eager to believe any reasurance of their primarch being back in control. I still think they got hoodwinkled royally.


True. There is a Dutch saying: ''Jezelf voor de gek houden.''
Which roughly translates into: Keeping yourself fooled. Thats what they're doing.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah we have a similar saying in Scotland, 'Kidding yoursel on.'

I think Lucius and that jumped at the chance to believe that Fulgrim was in control. They accepted his explanation pretty quickly.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Yeah we have a similar saying in Scotland, 'Kidding yoursel on.'
> 
> I think Lucius and that jumped at the chance to believe that Fulgrim was in control. They accepted his explanation pretty quickly.


In the eyes of a child, mother is god.

In the eyes of an Emperors Child, Fulgrim is god. They'll do anything he says. That goes for all original Legions by the way. 

It was an interesting view in 'The First Heretic' that the loyalty of a Space Marine to his Primarch was written into his gene seed. That might be a reason they never truly doubted any of it.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think that only applied to the Word Bearers, their sort of a genetic flaw was unbridled devotion or something.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sangus Bane said:


> In the eyes of a child, mother is god.
> 
> In the eyes of an Emperors Child, Fulgrim is god. They'll do anything he says. That goes for all original Legions by the way.
> 
> It was an interesting view in 'The First Heretic' that the loyalty of a Space Marine to his Primarch was written into his gene seed. That might be a reason they never truly doubted any of it.


If they did, why bother second-guessing Fulgrim from the get-go?

Also there were many thousands who would not have sided with their Primarchs against the Emperor. Hence Istvaan and all.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

hailene said:


> If they did, why bother second-guessing Fulgrim from the get-go?
> 
> Also there were many thousands who would not have sided with their Primarchs against the Emperor. Hence Istvaan and all.


I didn't say it was so. I merely remarked it was an interesting view which was mentioned in the books. And I didn't know it only extended to the wb Legion, as Words of Truth suggests.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> I always felt Lucius and company was too eager to believe any reasurance of their primarch being back in control. I still think they got hoodwinkled royally.


I don't think Lucius was fooled... i think at the end he knew it was not Fulgrim, it did not matter to him like it did in the beginning though. I think at the end he is under the control of the Laeren daemon. I also think Fabius knew the whole time, that is why he was stalling on the torture. The others are tools.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Sangus Bane said:


> In the eyes of a child, mother is god.
> 
> In the eyes of an Emperors Child, Fulgrim is god. They'll do anything he says. That goes for all original Legions by the way.
> 
> It was an interesting view in 'The First Heretic' that the loyalty of a Space Marine to his Primarch was written into his gene seed. That might be a reason they never truly doubted any of it.



Except it isn't. There was a purge in the Word Bearers just as there was in any Traitor Legion. Plenty of Legionaries went against their Primarchs for the sake of the Emperor. I know they keep talking about all the devotion and whatnot, but then why were there people like Loken and Garro and whatnot?



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I don't think Lucius was fooled... i think at the end he knew it was not Fulgrim, it did not matter to him like it did in the beginning though. I think at the end he is under the control of the Laeren daemon. I also think Fabius knew the whole time, that is why he was stalling on the torture. The others are tools.


I agree, that end scene was just too... there was something wrong about it. Fabius stalling, then Lucius suddenly going "Oops, my bad guys, I was just wrong, that actually is Fulgrim"; I'm pretty sure the daemon is still in Fulgrim's body. Also, it's just silly that the scene where Fulgrim killed Ferrus Mannus was made to be a soul-rending experience for Fulgrim that drove him to let a daemon take over his body... and then was rendered moot. "I didn't actually care about my brother", yeah, right, you were totally on top of things when you... let that daemon posses you...:fool:

Or is Fulgrim really Fulgrim and all of this is just bad writing? Not sure which is worse.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Just finished reading reflection crack'd and I hated it. It, like the outcast dead, is full of illogical plotlines and contradictory character portrayals. I wasn't surprised that it was resolved with a deus ex machina plot device. Maybe Mcneill just phoned it in for that story. 

The only thing that one can say from that story is that Fulgrim is still possessed and that the order of the legion is rapidly descending into anarchy.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

SoulGazer said:


> I agree, that end scene was just too... there was something wrong about it. Fabius stalling, then Lucius suddenly going "Oops, my bad guys, I was just wrong, that actually is Fulgrim"; I'm pretty sure the daemon is still in Fulgrim's body. Also, it's just silly that the scene where Fulgrim killed Ferrus Mannus was made to be a soul-rending experience for Fulgrim that drove him to let a daemon take over his body... and then was rendered moot. "I didn't actually care about my brother", yeah, right, you were totally on top of things when you... let that daemon posses you...:fool:


Reread that scene after you reread the scene were the Laeren blade kills Lucius' Terran sword. Fabius is just playing along. He can tell that the daemon in control of the Fulgrim meat puppet, /wants/ Lucius and Co to torture him. This is where the last of the old Lucius is washed away. The birth of the "Eternal".


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Reread that scene after you reread the scene were the Laeren blade kills Lucius' Terran sword. Fabius is just playing along. He can tell that the daemon in control of the Fulgrim meat puppet, /wants/ Lucius and Co to torture him. This is where the last of the old Lucius is washed away. The birth of the "Eternal".



But... it's just so friggin' _bad!_ Lucius was already converted, he was fully giving in to excess and perfection. The heck did he need to be "reborn" for?


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Agreed - I'm not quite sure what the point of the story was. All of the loyalists from the legion had been killed off already, so having a story dedicated to showing that the rest of the legion follows Fulgrim into heresy is rather moot.

The story could've been used to explain the "why" they followed a lot more, or perhaps delve deeper into the demon/fulgrim dynamic - but it only skirted those issues. The other 3 stories in the book did much, much more in terms of developing plot lines and exploring the pivotal characters.

I like Mcneill as a writer, but he seems to be hit or miss lately. Perhaps the editor could've spent a bit more time with the manuscript or asked whether or not the story made any sense.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I remember hearing something about it was the opener for another book, Angel Exterminatus. That one with the cover of Fulgrim and Peturabo fighting side by side.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

There are hints throughout the primarchs in several stories regarding angel exterminatus in addition to the whole mining crystals for the city storyline.

So much so that they didn't feel like hints, but more like "there's a new book coming soon you have to buy it" Definitely mentioned in the iron hands story as a main plot device, think it was in the dark angel one as well

I still don't this as the death of old Lucius, Lucius was more evil/ twisted in fulgrim than in this, simply by matter of contrast to characters like Saul. He has a long way to fall yet


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I bought the ebook just to read this for myself and I am fighting an internal war over whether I like it or not. On the downside are all the things the rest of you brought up. It is abrupt, it does change the feeling I had for the Emperor's Children after reading Fulgrim, it does seem needlessly shoehorned in, and it also makes Lucius and co (and Fabulous Bile) look like idiots.

On the plus side however it gets rid of the whole daemon thing and puts Fulgrim back into full control of his legion. Of all the things that happened to Primarchs his possession bothered me the most. I don't doubt that at some level it should be possible to do so but to have a some type of daemon take over on of the Emperor's creations just didn't click well with me. I wanted Fulgrim to be Fulgrim and for that Fulgrim to be an evil, crazed, unstoppable, sadomasochistic freak and to have him drag his sons right down there with him. Otherwise he just seems like a weak tool and not a villain at all. Of all the Primarch so far every single traitor (with the possible exceptions of Perturbato and Mortation, haven't heard enough about them yet to call it) is portrayed as falling almost accidentally and almost never as evil or malicious. Even Angron seems more pitiable to me rather than crazy blood berzerker. In this regard I like that Fulgrim is shown to be EMBRACING chaos and not just edging into it.

The way I read the story was that after Lorgar talked with the daemon (clearly still inside Fulgrim's body) that the true Fulgrim finally broke free and trapped the daemon unexpectedly. I saw his strange actions as him totally giving in to Slaanesh and his trapping the daemon as his sadistic punishment for daring to try to control him. I even get the sense that he purposefully LET his sons think something was wrong as a means of educating them and of explaining what had happened while at the same time preparing them for his ascension and their continued slide into depravity and obsession. 

Like I said, I'm a bit torn.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

SoulGazer said:


> But... it's just so friggin' _bad!_ Lucius was already converted, he was fully giving in to excess and perfection. The heck did he need to be "reborn" for?


The Terran sword he carried was keeping a part of him grounded. When the Laeren blade takes it out the last bit of good in him is gone. He was only playing lip service to the that point. Maybe the devotion to perfection is what needs to be lost. The part that cared who was leading the Emperors Children. He refused to follow the daemon in control because it was not Fulgrim. The Daemon needed Lucius fully corrupted, to get final and total control of the legion.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Is this all speculation on the ending or the actual ending, the way I saw it Fulgrim had already descented into "madness" and the whole him acting weird was a way of easing his closest advisers into his schemes.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> I bought the ebook just to read this for myself and I am fighting an internal war over whether I like it or not. On the downside are all the things the rest of you brought up. It is abrupt, it does change the feeling I had for the Emperor's Children after reading Fulgrim, it does seem needlessly shoehorned in, and it also makes Lucius and co (and Fabulous Bile) look like idiots.
> 
> On the plus side however it gets rid of the whole daemon thing and puts Fulgrim back into full control of his legion. Of all the things that happened to Primarchs his possession bothered me the most. I don't doubt that at some level it should be possible to do so but to have a some type of daemon take over on of the Emperor's creations just didn't click well with me. I wanted Fulgrim to be Fulgrim and for that Fulgrim to be an evil, crazed, unstoppable, sadomasochistic freak and to have him drag his sons right down there with him. Otherwise he just seems like a weak tool and not a villain at all. Of all the Primarch so far every single traitor (with the possible exceptions of Perturbato and Mortation, haven't heard enough about them yet to call it) is portrayed as falling almost accidentally and almost never as evil or malicious. Even Angron seems more pitiable to me rather than crazy blood berzerker. In this regard I like that Fulgrim is shown to be EMBRACING chaos and not just edging into it.
> 
> ...



I'm suprised that the notion that Fulgrim getting possessed bothers people to be honest, as personally, I thought it has been one of the fluff gems of the HH Series.

I love the idea that Fulgrim, unable to face up to the horror of his OWN actions, losses control of his mind just long enough that a powerful Daemonic entity (probably millenia old) is able to usurp him and steal possession of his body.

Worse still, he traps Fulgrim in his own mind so that he has to witness all the depraved acts and physical alterations undertaken by the Daemon his body and under his name.

Plus, all the cool Chaos'y things are still Fulgrim's, it just turns out that a Daemon is calling the shots, rather than a devoted Primarch.

In many respects I argue that his fall made him unique among all the Primarch's, as he alone fell to possession, whereas the others all eventually accepted their fates and were elevated to Daemon Princes. Very tragic IMO.




Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> The Terran sword he carried was keeping a part of him grounded. When the Laeren blade takes it out the last bit of good in him is gone. He was only playing lip service to the that point. Maybe the devotion to perfection is what needs to be lost. The part that cared who was leading the Emperors Children. He refused to follow the daemon in control because it was not Fulgrim. The Daemon needed Lucius fully corrupted, to get final and total control of the legion.


You view of the fluff has been a little off in a few respects.

1. The Laeren Blade which was given to Lucius is specifically described as having lost its 'glow' or something, indicating that once the Daemon switched bodies with Fulgrim the sword lost some of its malice or magnificence depending on your point of view. 

Its kind of described as being 'still deadly' but at the same time 'not the same as it once was'.

(If someone wants to grab the quote from the ending of the book _Fulgrim _I'll throw some +rep your way)

2. The Daemon would never care about Lucius in that way, because, if he thought that Lucius suspected foul play or wasn't following him, he would have just killed him.

Plus, at the end of _Fulgrim_, it is specifically Lucius that notices a difference in the Primarch when he hands him the Laeren blade. And my reading of the paragraph (off of my memory), was that Lucius simply 'shrugs', or accepts the difference.

Or at the very least thinks nothing more of it. Which is another reason why this short story is badly constructed.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

"Only the swordsman Lucius had appeared to notice something amiss but even he had said nothing"

"Though the weapon was now bereft of its spirit there was still power within the blade, powers that would empower Lucius in the years of death to come"


Fulgrim P509


I prefer possessed Fulgrim to the chaos version, it adds tragedy which is needed for the emperors children


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Its kind of described as being 'still deadly' but at the same time 'not the same as it once was'.
> 
> (If someone wants to grab the quote from the ending of the book _Fulgrim _I'll throw some +rep your way)


Here you go:



> ...Only the swordsman, Lucius, had appeared to realise that something was amiss, but even he had said nothing. The daemon had sensed the burgeoning warp touch upon the warrior and had presented him with the silver blade within which the Laer had bound a fragment of its essence. Though the weapon was now bereft of its spirit, there was still power within the blade, power that would empower Lucius in the years of death to come.


Edit: got beaten to it.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

D-A-C said:


> I'm suprised that the notion that Fulgrim getting possessed bothers people to be honest, as personally, I thought it has been one of the fluff gems of the HH Series.
> 
> I love the idea that Fulgrim, unable to face up to the horror of his OWN actions, losses control of his mind just long enough that a powerful Daemonic entity (probably millenia old) is able to usurp him and steal possession of his body.
> 
> ...


It's more a personal thing for me rather than it not being kinda awesome in its own right. I always prefer bad guys who choose evil, who have a reason, who do all they do knowing that they are seen as evil and not caring. These just seem more compelling to me for some reason. With the Heresy series I have seen little of that except in Lorgar (eventually) and Curze. Magnus gets tricked by Tzeentch, Horus is manipulated by Erebus and chaos itself, Alpharius is influenced by the cabal and isn't even really with the traitors, Angron has always hated the Emperor since his rescue, Mortation gets sorta forced into it by Nurgle, Perturbato gets constantly screwed over and in killing all the Olympians of his homeworld hes forced to turn evil, same with Curze. I just wanted ONE primarch to see the forces of chaos and go ".....awesome." Lorgar sort of did it (indeed every additional book keeps him moving along that sort of path) but I always felt Fulgrim was ripe for it above any others save Lorgar.

They are both cut from a similar cloth and all, Lorgar wants the truth and Fulgrim wants perfection. Their temptations are, in some ways, parallel and so I always liked the idea of Fulgrim seeing the power and depth of Slaanesh and, like Lorgar with chaos undivided, see it as the answer to his desires. Instead it's him getting mind raped in a moment of major depression brought on by the murder of his brother. If he was going to be possessed then why not have it be more of a union like Argal Tal's is? Him held forever inside a picture (not within his own body apparently or am I getting that wrong, its hard to tell) is tragic certainly (and I loved how it was done) but the entire war is tragic too. I find the idea of him surrendering to Slaanesh and becoming the absolute antithesis of the Emperor's perfection is more of a tragedy really. 

Really just boils down to my own personal preference really. I DID say I was torn though, the writing in Fulgrim was enough for me to be willing to go with the newer version and then it switches again after I am already comfortable with it. Conflicted I am:grin:


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

"Him held forever inside a picture (not within his own body apparently or am I getting that wrong, its hard to tell)"

At the time of killing ferrus, his essence was still in his body, and later the demon transferred it into the picture. 

This actually, is one of the reasons why we know that Fulgrim is still possessed. Post transfer, given that the picture could still emote and thus the demon could still mock fulgrim, it would be silly for it to risk reconnecting with the picture again.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

mbatemplar said:


> At the time of killing ferrus, his essence was still in his body, and later the demon transferred it into the picture.
> 
> This actually, is one of the reasons why we know that Fulgrim is still possessed. Post transfer, given that the picture could still emote and thus the demon could still mock fulgrim, it would be silly for it to risk reconnecting with the picture again.


Yeah, I get that. It had just been phrased two ways. Fulgrim in the painting trapped for all time or Fulgrim still within his body but totally surpressed by the daemon and forced to watch all "his" horrific acts. There was something about the daemon keeping him inside his own body to witness it all and eventually (when he became a daemon prince) having his own planet to rule but his true self being appalled by it.

Speaking of can a daemon, especially a greater daemon as this probably was, be transformed into a daemon prince? I have no idea myself. If yes then it could still be a daemon. If not then it has to be Fulgrim. CoE, what's the verdict on that?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> Speaking of can a daemon, especially a greater daemon as this probably was, be transformed into a daemon prince? I have no idea myself. If yes then it could still be a daemon. If not then it has to be Fulgrim. CoE, what's the verdict on that?


I'm not CotE, but as far as I know a greater daemon stays a greater daemon. It can gain in power and influence through service to its god, but that's it. A daemon prince itself is a daemon who started off as a mortal champion of the chaos gods, but did enough to gain their favour to be ascended to daemonhood. Their mortal heritage is one of the reasons why greater daemons actually sometimes tend to look down on daemon princes.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I believe the only real difference between a daemon prince and a greater daemon is the former's mortal origins. They're both just coherent blobs of warp energy after all. We know daemons can be promoted (which I assume means "add energy to"), because, if I recall correctly, Nurgle did that to one of his Nurglings.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

A greater deamon cannot become a DP due to the mortal origin of a DP

Fulgrim original story never had him becoming a DP in the truest sense, merely the deamon altering the host for better function, ala a possessed marine. 

This allows the deamon to reside in real space for considerably longer. Deamons cannot reside outside the warp for long, angron did for a long time due to all the slaughter of his crusade, Magnus did at first due to having a planet worshipping him. It one of the primary reasons that chaos need a mortal champion (Abbaddon) 

All true Deamons are merely a fragment of their gods will and can be changed/ promoted or destroyed in an instant. Ku'gath was promoted from a nurgling. Fateweaver is terrified Tzeentch will trick, and possibly kill him.

Based on the fluff in fantasy deamon princes are rarely killed but are punished severely if they cross the gods


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

The positions are not mutually exclusive. Since Fulgrim is a greater demon in a mortal body, then it could be possible that the host body itself was then transformed into a demon prince.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've just reread Fulgrim and tbh as soon as he took hold of the Laeran sword he was never his proper self, the daemon literally tells Horus that much when he throws him Ferrus's head. 

The idea he's changed so drastically really is hard to believe, Fulgrim was a thoughtful Primarch he was his thoughts that corrupted him via the daemon, but now he has his own thoughts again they still appear radically different to the original Fulgrim. So much difference that he still acts like the daemon which is where I see the problem is. 

If he'd felt pity or something or we saw what resembles the original Fulgrim from the early parts of _Fulgrim_then it would of been a lot easier to accept, instead he appears just as twisted as when he was under the daemons influence, notice the similarity between how he dispatched his two Lord Commanders as well?

I think the idea Fulgrim was trying to get across during his torture was basically he was still heading for true perfection, which kind of builds on what he was allowing Fabius to do originally and probably why Fabius ended up believing the change as well.

The heart of the Emperor's Children is gone tbh, it died with Demeter, it was lost with Tarvitz, it was inevitable when Vespasian was executed, this short story basically finishes off what little heart the legion had.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

One thing that makes me wonder is that his foot grows back after being melted off. That's the sort of thing (fast, scarless healing) featured prominently in fluff regarding _possessed_ warriors, like the Gal Vorbak. It is noted that the composition of Fulgrim's body is changing, but it's unclear if that's the daemon's doing or if that's part of Fulgrim's ascension towards Daemon Princedom.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The primarchs have always been portrayed as super resilient. Like Sanguinius bouncing back from getting both of his legs broken in a certain fight in just a span of hours I believe.

But I figure the healing factor of Primarchs vary between them. Angron got burried beneath a mountain of rubble and was unharmed. I remember reading of Horus' first meeting with Alpharius, emptying a whole bolterclip into him at point blank and he still kept comming at Horus. Another story of The Emperor saving Horus' life from attackers when he was merely stunned by taking a plasma blast.

Then theres Morty excellent at breathing Poison on Barbarus. Conrad Curze surviving his pod landing in the molten adamantium crust of Nostromo and clawing his way out of it.

Infact only Magnus the Red seems to spring to mind as the odd one out, not having recovered from his eye-ectomy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> Speaking of can a daemon, especially a greater daemon as this probably was, be transformed into a daemon prince? I have no idea myself. If yes then it could still be a daemon. If not then it has to be Fulgrim. CoE, what's the verdict on that?


As _randian_ said, daemon princes are categorised by their mortal origins, but ultimately they are daemons just like every other. By asking if its possible for a greater daemon to transform into a daemon prince, you are simply asking 'can a daemon become a daemon?', which is obviously nonsensical.

Before _Reflection Crack'd_, I was working under the assumption that 'Fulgrim' was not _technically_ a daemon prince, but more akin to a possessed mortal, with the lore claiming he was a daemon prince because no one was aware of the Primarch's possession. But now it seems that it is Fulgrim that ascends to daemonhood after all, with the Laeran daemon removed from the equation.



mbatemplar said:


> The positions are not mutually exclusive. Since Fulgrim is a greater demon in a mortal body, then it could be possible that the host body itself was then transformed into a demon prince.


This is a possibility. Although I imagine its the soul/essence of an individual that is raised to daemonhood, rather than their physical flesh. It would also pose the problem of a daemon possessing a daemon.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

> It would also pose the problem of a daemon possessing a daemon.


That one is a real Inception grade mindtwister, hah!


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is a possibility. Although I imagine its the soul/essence of an individual that is raised to daemonhood, rather than their physical flesh. It would also pose the problem of a daemon possessing a daemon.


Given the other instances of where we see individuals become demon princes (storm of iron comes to mind), it's the body that gets transformed not the soul. The line in reflection cracked regarding the pupa stage of the body seems to reinforce this idea.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Having just finished reading Reflection Crack'd, I have come to the conclusion that Fulgrim is likely back in his body. My belief comes from when Lorgar spoke with him in Aurelian -- it was clearluy the daemon in control then. Though Lorgar looked at the painting and smiled before marching out of the room. It is my belief that Lorgar knew of Fulgrim's plot to retake his body and therefore had no need to take the daemon out. Of coarse this belief is strained by the fact that Lorgar spoke with the fake Fulgrim for hours before this -- which could equally lead to the conclusion that they came to an agreement, as is the common belief.

I cannot help but hope that Fulgrim got his body back -- for he would be the only Primarch to see the true extent and horror of servitude to a Chaos God ... and then willingly chose it. At least in my view -- Lorgar is another potential but his fall is still tragic.

Of coarse -- the daemon could just be fucking with us.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> Given the other instances of where we see individuals become demon princes (storm of iron comes to mind), it's the body that gets transformed not the soul. The line in reflection cracked regarding the pupa stage of the body seems to reinforce this idea.


I would disagree. 

The process of becoming a daemon prince literally transforms a mortal into a daemon. It doesn't just transform their flesh into warped looking daemon-flesh, whilst they still maintain a mortal mind and soul. Daemon princes are daemons that are categorised by their mortal origins. They are no longer mortals though. 

Anyway, why we're talking about this is because someone queried whether Fulgrim's flesh could have been elevated to daemonhood whilst the Laern daemon was still in possession of it. My point was that:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Before _Reflection Crack'd_, I was working under the assumption that 'Fulgrim' was not _technically_ a daemon prince, but more akin to a possessed mortal, with the lore claiming he was a daemon prince because no one was aware of the Primarch's possession. But now it seems that it is Fulgrim that ascends to daemonhood after all, with the Laeran daemon removed from the equation.


And that if it was a mortal's physical shell that was ascended to daemonhood rather than their soul, in Fulgrim's case:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It would also pose the problem of a daemon possessing a daemon.


Unless of course Fulgrim's ascension would have banished the Laern daemon. But I don't think there is a strong case to suggest only a mortal's body is ascended to daemonhood at all.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

When being elevated a mortal, only the body changes as we see in Storm of Iron where the warsmith ate the gene seed and was transformed. His personality was still the same.

What happens to the soul? Considering that when average people die, their soul joins with the immaterium, I would argue that the soul doesn't need to be transformed as it already can join with the warp without difficulty. Demons, being natural denizens of the warp, would likewise have no difficulty. Furthermore, I would find it puzzling how strong willed primarchs would be willing to let their souls be transformed (in essence their very personality and being) be changed. They would want more power, not a personality transplant.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

My own impressions of the primarchs, was that they were 'imperial' daemons, bound in perfectly sculpted flesh that was the perfect host a newborn warpentity of terrible power


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> I would argue that the soul doesn't need to be transformed as it already can join with the warp without difficulty.


"Need" and "is" aren't the same thing. I don't see how wholesale transformation aka corruption is avoidable, seeing as how your spirit is being bolstered to handle life in the naked warp by giving you a bunch of Chaos energy. That naturally destroys your body, since as we all know daemons corrupt and destroy human bodies they possess, the more powerful the faster. In the case of a Daemon Prince, that would likely be a matter of only a few seconds.


mbatemplar said:


> Demons, being natural denizens of the warp, would likewise have no difficulty. Furthermore, I would find it puzzling how strong willed primarchs would be willing to let their souls be transformed (in essence their very personality and being) be changed.


They arguably have no choice at that point, their patron controls the process. The Chaos their spirits absorb is unlikely to have no effect. Even Agron could, on occasion, demonstrate introspection and thoughtfulness. Now he's nothing but rage incarnate.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Psykers is the prefered wessels of daemons, since they are already capable of wielding and channeling warp energy, the stronger the better. But then even the raw essence of a daemon will always burn out and corrupt the host with its naked essence.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Barnster said:


> "Only the swordsman Lucius had appeared to notice something amiss but even he had said nothing"
> 
> "Though the weapon was now bereft of its spirit there was still power within the blade, powers that would empower Lucius in the years of death to come"


Thanks for taking the time to find this quote for me your +rep was sent. 

Same goes for you COTE, but I can't give you +rep at the moment as I need to spread it around a little.



mbatemplar said:


> When being elevated a mortal, only the body changes as we see in Storm of Iron where the warsmith ate the gene seed and was transformed. His personality was still the same.
> 
> What happens to the soul? Considering that when average people die, their soul joins with the immaterium, I would argue that the soul doesn't need to be transformed as it already can join with the warp without difficulty. Demons, being natural denizens of the warp, would likewise have no difficulty. Furthermore, I would find it puzzling how strong willed primarchs would be willing to let their souls be transformed (in essence their very personality and being) be changed. They would want more power, not a personality transplant.


As has been said, elevation to Daemon Prince does necessarily alter the mortals soul as much or perhaps even more than his body.

Think about it, when you acend to become a Prince of one of the Four Great Gods of Chaos, you embody the emotions that the particular God is made up of.

You actually become a very singular entity as you purely embody the emotions of Nurgle, Slaanesh, Khorne or Tzeentch, your 'personality', your 'mortal coil' is forever changed to better reflect your chosen deity. 


Khorne - You become the personification of rage, anger and hatred, always on edge and ready to shed the blood of yourself or others. You cannot focus on anything but war, blood and the claiming of skulls. Friends, allies, and other terms mean nothing, you strike out and attack everything within reach, including your own self.

Nurgle - You become the personification of pestilence physically, but nihilism spiritually. You may have a 'happy' attitude, like many of Grandfather Nurgle's followers, but it is the most desperate form of happiness. The happiness of 'misery loves company'.

Tzeentch - You become the personification of change, your physical (daemonic shell) probably warped the most of all the gods, perhaps endlessly shape shifting, while you forever plot, scheme and seek knowledge beyond the limits of reason.

Slaanesh - You become the personification of peversion. There is no physical sensation you haven't undertaken, and this has corrupted your very core. In my own opinion this is the worst Daemon Prince, as in essence, it has been suggested you actually become completely dulled to the reception of pleasure and instead can only emit pleasure to those around you. Your followers will be forever enthralled by your presence whilst you need the most extreme acts and sensations to relieve you of your emptiness, but you will always be empty.


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