# What if the Imperium lost the technology to create new Gene Seed?



## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry if someone has already come up with this question, I did some searches on the fourms but could not find anything that covered this,

Well I am the first to admit I have never been an Imperium supporter, and knew very little about the whole Gene Seed Process, my initial thoughts on the matter where are the Space Marines a dying race as everything I saw pointed to the fact that Gene Seed where very precious to them and always extracted from the fallen where possible so my initial thoughts where they could not create new Gene Seed,

Well I thought I would do a little more research before I started posting questions :laugh: and I came across that Gene Seed are in fact still being created by the Imperium to keep the Space Marine ranks bolstered (am sure most people here already know this :laugh, so this got me to thinking what would happen if the Imperium lost the ability to create New Gene Seed, would it change how the Space Marines fought battles as they would have to conserve every last Gene Seed that they had for transplant into the next generation,

and if and when they finally lost the aid of the Space Marines, could the Imperium in fact defend themselves or would they soon be over run and fall into memory like so many other races in the Galaxy?


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

I think they would break the rules on technological advancement/research because without the SM they would be f'd in the a. But they would fail as they don't have the knoledge or power of the Emporer


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

stephen.w.langdon said:


> Sorry if someone has already come up with this question, I did some searches on the fourms but could not find anything that covered this,
> 
> Well I am the first to admit I have never been an Imperium supporter, and knew very little about the whole Gene Seed Process, my initial thoughts on the matter where are the Space Marines a dying race as everything I saw pointed to the fact that Gene Seed where very precious to them and always extracted from the fallen where possible so my initial thoughts where they could not create new Gene Seed,
> 
> ...


as a what if, they would die out if they carried on the way they do now. but if they embrased tech then they could get by, or fall to chaos, the imperium would be gone but man kind would survive. 

but the imperium doesn't make gene seed. i think space marines grow a second one in there body which is then harvested for the next generation of space marines and when they die the original is taken back as well.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Gene seed isn't being cultured or raised like crops. They have to be grown within human bodies--almost always Space Marine novitiates. 

Do you mean what would happen if a Space Marine could only possess one geneseed, so if his geneseed was lost, there would be technically no way to replace him? Pretty obvious--they would die out. Fate would decide if it would be quickly or slowly.

And if the Space Marines died out...

I think the Imperium would endure (if you considering it still enduring at this point). A million Space Marines isn't that influential when there are tens, thousands of trillions of Guardsmen out there.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

Basically if they lost the space marines they are ****** in my opinion. The 13th crusade would kill all in there path, Tyranids would destroy all in there path aswell as Orks killing all in there path. The imperium is barely holding on as it is losing the space marines would be the tipping point.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> And if the Space Marines died out...
> 
> I think the Imperium would endure (if you considering it still enduring at this point). A million Space Marines isn't that influential when there are tens, thousands of trillions of Guardsmen out there.


I disagree. 

How many crucial campaigns have been won due to the influence of the Adeptus Astartes? The Armageddon wars? Numerous Black Crusades? Tyrannic Wars?


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

If Space Marines died out then it would be the quickest dissolvement of an empire since the Eldar Fall.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Gene-seed is self replicating, they can't really lose the ability to make it. Some of the zygotes that are responsible for the various organs can become defective, but that's a rare thing and generally requires some serious tampering or to be faulty from the original legion (eg the Imperial Fists and the Bletchers Gland or the meddling that created the Cursed Founding). 

How Gene-seed works is that each space marine has two progenoid glands. Each of these glands allows for a new set of the twenty organs that make a space marine a space marine to be grown again. One of these is removed once it's mature, the other at death. So every space marine can both replace himself and create a new marine- they're in in danger of dying out.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree.
> 
> How many crucial campaigns have been won due to the influence of the Adeptus Astartes? The Armageddon wars? Numerous Black Crusades? Tyrannic Wars?


How many crucial campigns have been won where Space Marines _fought_ in? Plenty. Your list scratches the surface.

How many have been fun because of Space Marines? The list is smaller, but there's a list.

How many have been won that would have been lost without Space Marine intervention? Narrower and narrower still.

Realistically, there aren't enough of them to go around. If I recall correctly, "The Saint Sabbat Worlds Crusade book" says on the onset of the Sabbat World's crusade, there were a billion guardsmen tasked to take back the sector. In counter point, six Chapters bid portions of themselves in support. That's 2000-4000 marines weighed against a billion Guardsmen plus an unknown number of Naval support and Mechanicus units.

The marines are out numbered (given the high end) some 250,000 to 1.

I'm sure they played crucial roles in cracking planets in weeks instead of years or decades, but the numbers just don't add up.

Though that's just one example. Maybe the Sabbat World Crusade was woefully underequipped in terms of Space Marines. Even if you multiplied it by 10 and bring 50,000 Space Marines (or a grand total of 50 Chapters worth of Space Marines, or approximately 5% of the Imperium's _total_ Space Marine strength into a _single_ sector), they're still outnumbered 25,000 to one.

I understand that Space Marines aren't used as front line units (normally) and of course they wouldn't be slugging it out against millions of cultists, and that they would be deployed to take advantage of their abilities, and with their advantages they could potentially decapitate the enemy's entire command staff. Still, the war is largely fought and either won or lost by, the dogsoldier. 

Not saying it wouldn't hurt the Imperium. But it wouldn't be crippled by any measure, I think. Not strictly in a military sense. I'm sure Space Marine planets carry more than their weight. The very imminent arrival of Space Marines can restore morale to cut off Guard units. The appearance of Space Marines could rekindle faith in the Emperor or cow a rebellious Imperial Governor without firing a shot.

I wouldn't think that the Imperium's security would be severely compromised if the Space Marines were slowly wiped out over the course of a couple millennium.

Edit: I misremembered some numbers. Corrected them.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

If marines start becoming extinct then the Mechanicus will probably go insane founding as many chapters as possible to gain time to perfect the process of gene seed creation and offer some kind of last stand and/or the grey knights (arent their seeds perfect?) would probably give them the secrets to gene seed creation to the mechanicus of mars... 

If theres no way they can revive the gene seeds then the imperium would probably die in a couple of hundreds of years or even a millenia, there's a trillion guardsmen amongst untold worlds, they may be guardsmen but they die standing and by the time whoever reaches terra they will be awfully exhausted..


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Bearing in mind the amount of things a SM can do that a guardsman can't? I am in the same boat as thinking the Imperium is screwed without them. 

If we go by the addage that each SM is worth ten lesser men, then the loss of a million SM is like the loss of ten million guard. Realistically however, they are worth far more than that simply because they have a much wider theater of war available to them. They can fight on ocean beds, in a vacuum, many have wills strong enough to battle in the warp or the EoT. They can conduct strikes on enemies that the IG would require a mass attack to neutralize. 

The Guard do a lot, but the SM do a hefty share of defending as well.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

You'll never see it happen. Why?

Two words.


Matt Ward.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

space marines grow the geneseed inside their body's i believe 2 of them in different locations. the first one gets extracted as soon as possible after the scout became a marine. the second one is in a place that would need lethal surgery to remove. so I'd say they get at least 1 genesead from each new marine. 2 most of the time.

so until geneseed has deteriated to much to be used again they will never run out.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

If space marines were to go the imperium would be tore a new a hole before they knew what happens why you ask?

Whilst the guard may have billions upon billions of men to hammer an opponent into submission the space marines are the precise weapon that stops a foe from even attacking.

Plus any novel of space marines depicting something obsured like one marine company defeating an entire necron tomb world or a few shattered companies defeating an entire warrgghhh single handedly in short whilst the guard may be able to do the same tasks it would take 10 million guardsmen to do the job that a single company of marines could do.... 

well thats just my input (or opinion)


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Haskanael said:


> space marines grow the geneseed inside their body's i believe 2 of them in different locations. the first one gets extracted as soon as possible after the scout became a marine. the second one is in a place that would need lethal surgery to remove. so I'd say they get at least 1 genesead from each new marine. 2 most of the time.
> 
> so until geneseed has deteriated to much to be used again they will never run out.


I don't really believe the removal of the second Progenoid is lethal. In The Gildar Rift one of the Silver Skulls has his removed by the forces of Chaos, but survives. Even though he'd prefer death, since he now feels like something is missing from him.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> They can conduct strikes on enemies that the IG would require a mass attack to neutralize.


That's the thing, the Imperial Guard will likely have the numbers to do so.

As I said before, I think the SMs really save a lot of lives. They can crush high value targets much more efficiently than an IG taskforce could. Space Marines scouts could infiltrate a planet's ground based defenses and neutralize their ground to space defenses, therefore making a massed IG landing feasible. They could board and exterminate an enemy fleet's commander without the need for a pitched battle. A small execution force could be sent to assassinate a rising Ork warchief, thereby preventing a WAAARGH from even starting.

And in these relatively micro-level engagements, they'd be proven to be invaluable.

In a larger, macro sense? I still don't think there's enough. They're a teaspoon of water with 5 gallon drums balanced on each side. They can tip the balance one way or another, but most times they can't.

I will admit, though, that Warhammer 40k battles tend toward the dramatic. Battles must hinge on the smallest of weights to make it exciting, often times swinging one way and then the other within moments. With _that_ in mind, I would imagine the the Imperium would suffer greatly with the lose of the Space Marines.



COMPNOR said:


> I don't really believe the removal of the second Progenoid is lethal. In The Gildar Rift one of the Silver Skulls has his removed by the forces of Chaos, but survives. Even though he'd prefer death, since he now feels like something is missing from him.


Well, they also figure that without his last progenoid that his body would begin to reject his Space Marine physiology. So there seems to be a reason why they don't harvest both before death.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

They don't know what will happen to him. But it's not lethal surgery to remove.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Prior to the Heresy, there were roughly 2,000,000 marines that conquered most of the galaxy. The IG provided crucial support, but the implication of the current conversation would be the SM were just titular leaders. They're at half that strength and maintain the balance of the galaxy. The SMs are the backbone of the operation and succeed when the IG, Inquisition, or Mechanicum fail... At least, that's the way I've always thought of them


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Prior to the Heresy, there were roughly 2,000,000 marines that conquered most of the galaxy. The IG provided crucial support, but the implication of the current conversation would be the SM were just titular leaders. They're at half that strength and maintain the balance of the galaxy. The SMs are the backbone of the operation and succeed when the IG, Inquisition, or Mechanicum fail... At least, that's the way I've always thought of them


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Prior to the Heresy, there were roughly 2,000,000 marines that conquered most of the galaxy. The IG provided crucial support, but the implication of the current conversation would be the SM were just titular leaders. They're at half that strength and maintain the balance of the galaxy. The SMs are the backbone of the operation and succeed when the IG, Inquisition, or Mechanicum fail... At least, that's the way I've always thought of them


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Prior to the Heresy, there were roughly 2,000,000 marines that conquered most of the galaxy. The IG provided crucial support, but the implication of the current conversation would be the SM were just titular leaders. They're at half that strength and maintain the balance of the galaxy. The SMs are the backbone of the operation and succeed when the IG, Inquisition, or Mechanicum fail... At least, that's the way I've always thought of them


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

COMPNOR said:


> They don't know what will happen to him. But it's not lethal surgery to remove.


"It was the loss of that progenoid gland that had flummoxed Naryn. ‘I cannot say,’ he admitted when Brand had asked him what would happen to Porteus in the long term without the Quintessence Sacred. ‘Perhaps nothing, but from research that I have been able to find...' Naryn had swallowed hard before continuing. ‘He will most likely begin the process of shutting down. Without the Quintessence Sacred, without the gift of our forefathers and our ultimate progenitor, he is just a man. Large and strong, but just a man. He will fall prey to the ravages of time and he will eventually die."

Not lethal, per se. But he will die from it.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Prior to the Heresy, there were roughly 2,000,000 marines that conquered most of the galaxy. The IG provided crucial support, but the implication of the current conversation would be the SM were just titular leaders. They're at half that strength and maintain the balance of the galaxy. The SMs are the backbone of the operation and succeed when the IG, Inquisition, or Mechanicum fail... At least, that's the way I've always thought of them


The GC era was very different. The Imperium was much stronger--the Mechancius hadn't torn itself apart. Much "lost" technology was still around. From the Night Lord series, we learn that the vessels created immediately before and during the GC are several tiers above what is created in the 41st millennium. Many, rare, powerful weapons by today's standard were common place--Leman Russ Vanquishers, Executioners, Destroyers, and Land Raiders to name a few.

The enemies were seemingly less united. The Eldar were still reeling from The Fall, the largest Ork empire ever seen had just been demolished, there are no Tyranids and (to our knowledge) the Necrons are still sleeping, and widespread daemonic incursions or Chaos taint is largely unheard of. The galaxy was a much safer place for humanity.

Plus throughout the HH novels, we see fleets that have minor Space Marine contingents ("Horus Rising" "First Heretic") and others that lack them completely ("Prospero Burns" "Legion). 

The Legions provided much of the muscle, particularly early on, but I think later on there just wasn't enough of them around.

If the GC was _that_ reliant on Space Marines, could you imagine what sort of havoc would occur when Horus called 4 Legions to draw their full strength and land at Isstvaan before the betrayal? The Legionaries are surprised that Horus would throw so much at a single world, but there's nothing about stalling a significant chunk of the Great Crusade to punish a single world. I think that during the ending moments of the Great Crusade, the non-Astartes portion of the Imperium (Imperial Army and Mechanicus, namely) was shouldering the majority of the effort.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Space marine is what makes the warhammer 40 k universe unique. 

Let say there is no more space marine. The only solution for the Imperium is to find newer technology that can even the odds in the battle field for the Imperial Guards. 

Like newer weapons or perhaps an elite Imperial Guards men wearing a mecha like war suit (similar to Gundam or Tau) to battle against monsters. I really think the average Guard men is under equip for battle. 

Imagine an upgrade for millions if not billions of Guardmens with advance weapons and perhaps thousands of Guardsmen if not million of them wearing mecha like suits that can increase their toughness and strength for close combat battle . I think it's possible that the Imperium can survive.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> Space marine is what makes the warhammer 40 k universe unique.
> 
> Let say there is no more space marine. The only solution for the Imperium is to find newer technology that can even the odds in the battle field for the Imperial Guards.
> 
> ...


Yes, but the Imperium cannot afford the resources or time to implement that kind of change on the needed scale. And that's leaving aside the bullshit theological issues they'd have to overcome first.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree with Hailene. A lack of Astartes would be detrimental certainly, but i don't believe crippling. The Imperium is currently holding it's own and it's a fact that most guardsmen will never see a Space Marine. Most wars therefore are being won without Astartes intervention. 

The Imperial Guard is a stronger force the the Imperial Army was, which showed it's mettle during the Great Crusade (I'd argue that the Legions [discounting the later strategic impact of the Primarchs] were most important in the early stages were there was no Imperial Army to speak of and the Emperor had limited resources. Ultra loyal shock troop super soldiers were a vital asset to establish the beginnings of the empire) and is more than equal to the task the majority of the time. 

Would some wars become unwinnable, or take a lot longer to win without the Astartes? Yes, certainly but by no means would the Imperium collapse without them. It's the Guard that currently does the hard work in the Imperium's wars and would continue to do so.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> I agree with Hailene. A lack of Astartes would be detrimental certainly, but i don't believe crippling. The Imperium is currently holding it's own and it's a fact that most guardsmen will never see a Space Marine. Most wars therefore are being won without Astartes intervention.


Hardly. That just means they don't see them, not that they aren't in the same theater of war fighting somewhere else. IG and SM fighting the same war does not mean they share every battlefield.


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Hardly. That just means they don't see them, not that they aren't in the same theater of war fighting somewhere else. IG and SM fighting the same war does not mean they share every battlefield.


and also that a gaurds mans life if usually very short so would often be killed before the space marines arrived


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Hardly. That just means they don't see them, not that they aren't in the same theater of war fighting somewhere else. IG and SM fighting the same war does not mean they share every battlefield.


This may be true, but do keep in mind that the great majority of wars and other conflicts are not worthy of a Chapter's attention. Unless Space Marines are picky fighters, I'd hazard that there aren't enough of them to divie them up for most wars.

Plus, think of the size of the Imperium.

If there are a million worlds spread through, say, 66,666 sectors (that's giving a _very_ gratuitous 150 worlds per a sector), that's one Chapter for every 6.6 sectors!

Not only that, there generally are large gaps of wilderness space between sectors, as well. 

Furthermore, there are particular areas of space that have extra high concentrations of Space Marines (most notable being the Astartes Praeses, the twenty Chapters assigned to guard the area around the Eye of Terror). This would only further dilute the number of Space Marines available throughout the Imperium.



demon bringer said:


> and also that a gaurds mans life if usually very short so would often be killed before the space marines arrived


Unlikely that the majority of the Guardsmen would die before the Space Marines arrived. If most of the IG contingent died, it would be pretty hard to win most wars, no?


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

hailene said:


> "It was the loss of that progenoid gland that had flummoxed Naryn. ‘I cannot say,’ he admitted when Brand had asked him what would happen to Porteus in the long term without the Quintessence Sacred. ‘Perhaps nothing, but from research that I have been able to find...' Naryn had swallowed hard before continuing. ‘He will most likely begin the process of shutting down. Without the Quintessence Sacred, without the gift of our forefathers and our ultimate progenitor, he is just a man. Large and strong, but just a man. He will fall prey to the ravages of time and he will eventually die."
> 
> Not lethal, per se. But he will die from it.


This is one area of fluff that is a bit inconsistent. In the past gene-seed was only removed upon death. I'm guessing that BL decided the attrition rate would have seen the Astartes extinct by now and retconned it. Codex SM merely states that mature glands may be removed (no mention of being specific glands or that it can only be done post-mortem), Purging of Kadillus has a few sections which discusses the fact that marines should have their glands removed and stored in the Chapter stores so as not to risk losing them in battle, and Deathwatch goes into the most detail stating that the one in the chest can be removed after 10 years. In most other sources, the author's prefer to have the glands removed only upon death. In the case of Gildar Rift, this is the author's take on how the ultra-superstitious Silver Skulls would handle the situation (see the Gildar Rift discussion over in the BL thread).


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

demon bringer said:


> but the imperium doesn't make gene seed. i think space marines grow a second one in there body which is then harvested for the next generation of space marines and when they die the original is taken back as well.


The Imperium has it's own stores of gene-seed for each of the founding Chapters that is used to create subsequent foundings. As for the second point, two progenoids are implanted...one in the throat and one in the chest. Mature glands can be removed and new organs cultured from them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

gridge said:


> This is one area of fluff that is a bit inconsistent. In the past gene-seed was only removed upon death. I'm guessing that BL decided the attrition rate would have seen the Astartes extinct by now and retconned it. Codex SM merely states that mature glands may be removed (no mention of being specific glands or that it can only be done post-mortem), Purging of Kadillus has a few sections which discusses the fact that marines should have their glands removed and stored in the Chapter stores so as not to risk losing them in battle, and Deathwatch goes into the most detail stating that the one in the chest can be removed after 10 years. In most other sources, the author's prefer to have the glands removed only upon death. In the case of Gildar Rift, this is the author's take on how the ultra-superstitious Silver Skulls would handle the situation (see the Gildar Rift discussion over in the BL thread).


Not quite sure how the attrition rate would wipe out most Chapters.

If you can harvest the throat prognoid after 5 years, and almost every Space Marine makes it past 5 years, I think, then you break even.

Every prognoid you harvest from a dead 10+ year veteran means you're one ahead of the game.

Yes, the SM codex mentions that you can harvest the chest prognoid after 10 years. I was running under the assumption that before ten years it's not fully matured and thus can't be used to culture new Space Marine organs.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

hailene said:


> Not quite sure how the attrition rate would wipe out most Chapters.
> 
> If you can harvest the throat prognoid after 5 years, and almost every Space Marine makes it past 5 years, I think, then you break even.
> 
> ...


Well, according to Lexicanum the progenoid in the throat takes 5 years, and the one in the chest 10 years to mature. And once they're mature they can be removed to create new Marines. 

So my take would be that the throat is removed after 5 years, just in case, and the chest progenoid is left in really more as tradition, removed when the warrior dies. That's not to say you can't remove it early, and maybe mutations have caused some Marines to die if the chest progenoid is removed before death. Who knows.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I think someone else mentioned that the vast majority of the Imperium is not under war. There are about million worlds that the Imperium controls but maybe just small percentage of those worlds are constantly at war. 

So let say about 10% of the Imperium is always under some warfare. That's about 100,000 worlds. I imagine the Space marines chapters concentrate their attentions on those worlds that are always under duress. 

Ok..let say no more Space Marines. We know that most of the worlds have Planetary defense . Look at Cadiar for example . It's possible that imperial guards can carry the Imperium. 

As someone else mentioned it maybe too costly or they may lack the resources to upgrade the Imperial guardsmen. Well...without Space marines ...they have to start somewhere. 

Like an elite version of a guardsmen . Since humans are frail..improve upon long range weapons (kind like the Tau). For close combat ..mecha suits ..I don't see why they can't make a human control inside a B-grade version of a terminator suit or a dreadnought. It won't be as good as a space marine being in one but it can improve close combat abilities. 

For lack of resources and cost ..well no more space marines ..to supply so replace them with an elite force..just the equipment part with highly trained humans to operate. 


I think they said that during the dark age technology their were weapons so deadly that it's much deadly than the current weapons that is in use now. 

A part of me thinks the Imperium is killing itself off because of crappy management ability.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

COMPNOR said:


> Well, according to Lexicanum the progenoid in the throat takes 5 years, and the one in the chest 10 years to mature. And once they're mature they can be removed to create new Marines.
> 
> So my take would be that the throat is removed after 5 years, just in case, and the chest progenoid is left in really more as tradition, removed when the warrior dies. That's not to say you can't remove it early, and maybe mutations have caused some Marines to die if the chest progenoid is removed before death. Who knows.


Let me get this right.

When it reads "takes 10 years to mature" you interpret that as "can still be used before 10 years, but you make get funky results if used in another applicant"?

Not, say, the more straightforward "Isn't ready to be used until it fully matures, a process that takes 10 years".

Plus, if they could harvest both, Space Marine loses could be made up very quickly--which isn't the case. If you could take both out, you'd get a geneseed every 3.33 years. 

In ten years you could quadruple the number of Space Marines from a given number of geneseed. 

Plus the generally pragmatic Space Marines let their existence hang in the balance (by leaving a genessed in their bodies) purely for tradition? Maybe when a Chapter is at full strength with large stores of geneseed, but even mortally threatened Chapters keep the second prognoid within their men.

Heck, look to Huron. He gave the middle finger to the Codex Astartes and tried to build a Space Marine Legion in secret. Still, his Red Corsairs keep the second prognoid within their men. Why?

"The Gildar Rift" gives the most implicit evidence why--without it, Space Marines begin to return to human standard.

I don't imagine their skeletons shrinking much, but without the Ossmodula, I imagine their skeletons would return to human-strength and they'd find carrying their own weight increasingly difficult (that's why so many NBA players have so many injuries. Too much weight, not enough support). Likewise his muscles would likely atrophy once the Biscopea's function begins to diminish. 

If you could get away with retrieving the second prognoid before death, I'm sure more Chapters would do it. Or at least some Chapters.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Removing the progenoid glands doesn't mean the removal of the other organs that are implanetd within the Astartes. 
I'm sure it's in one of the HH books that a Marine has had both of his progenoid glands removed and is still operating and fighting perfectly well.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Removing the progenoid glands doesn't mean the removal of the other organs that are implanetd within the Astartes.
> I'm sure it's in one of the HH books that a Marine has had both of his progenoid glands removed and is still operating and fighting perfectly well.


In "The Gildar Rift" it deals with a marine who had his second prognoid removed forcibly.

I supplied the quote earlier, but basically an Apothecary theorizes, according to his research, that the marine in question's body will begin to shut down. He will cease being a Space Marine and become human again.

I don't recall any marine having their second prognoid removed.

We know that there was plenty of prognoids around the Drop Site Massacre, per "Know no Fear". Also the Iron Hands managed to get 400 Imperial Fist geneseed from The Iron Cage. I would have figured Dorn, Mr. Pragmatist, would have removed all the geneseed he could from his men to build his loses after the Battle for Terra.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Creation of a Space Marine in the first Index Astartes states that one of the progenoids glands functions is to balance and control all the other implants. So it's likely that without at least one gland that a Space Marine's body could go awry. Perhaps they then need more than the usual amount of chemical therapy or with prolonged absence they will indeed shut down.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

hailene said:


> In "The Gildar Rift" it deals with a marine who had his second prognoid removed forcibly.
> 
> I supplied the quote earlier, but basically an Apothecary theorizes, according to his research, that the marine in question's body will begin to shut down. He will cease being a Space Marine and become human again.
> 
> ...


I'd say it's another gap in the fluff then, writers not all singing from the same hymn sheet as such. I know I read it, can't for the life of me remember where though. 

Also, having gene seed is only half of the problem when it comes to coping with loses. You also need to find people who are physically able to withstand the process of being turned into an Astartes, which is no easy task. Chapters can cope with 'normal' loses as there will be a steady trickle of suitable aspirants rising through the ranks, but trying to repair heavier losses takes more time, not only does gene seed need to be available but so do suitable humans to put it in.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I'd say it's another gap in the fluff then, writers not all singing from the same hymn sheet as such. I know I read it, can't for the life of me remember where though.
> 
> Also, having gene seed is only half of the problem when it comes to coping with loses. You also need to find people who are physically able to withstand the process of being turned into an Astartes, which is no easy task. Chapters can cope with 'normal' loses as there will be a steady trickle of suitable aspirants rising through the ranks, but trying to repair heavier losses takes more time, not only does gene seed need to be available but so do suitable humans to put it in.


I'm pretty darn sure there hasn't been any marines in the HH that had both their prognoids removed. They don't really touch on the geneseed issue, minus in "Deliverance Lost".

And speaking about that, geneseed seems to be the main issue with loses. That's why it takes decades if not centuries to rebuild loses.

Look in "Storm of Iron". The Iron Warriors raid a stash of geneseed to bolster their ranks.

In the Badab war, Huron's Chapter is hoarding geneseed to increase their ranks. That's why they start butting heads with Terra in the first place. Then they start taking the geneseed from Loyalist dead to keep their numbers up.

In "Deliverance Lost" we see Corax desperately trying to increase geneseed cultivation to replace his loses. Though this example is less clean since he's also trying to increase geneseed comparability as well. Still, there were tens of thousands of potential recruits compatible with the geneseed. That's enough to rebuild a significant portion of his Legion, and yet he still needed something more (IE geneseed).

In the Night Lord series we see Huron raiding the Marines Errant geneseed storage. Again, to swell his ranks, as well as dooming the Marines Errant to a slow death.

Geneseed stocks is more than half the issue. Brave, hardy men are abundant in the Imperium of Man. Geneseed is much more finite.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

hailene said:


> Let me get this right.
> 
> When it reads "takes 10 years to mature" you interpret that as "can still be used before 10 years, but you make get funky results if used in another applicant"?
> 
> ...


Calm down dude, You really might want to reread. The progenoid in the throat *matures* in *5 years*. After 5 years, that one can be removed and it seems that it always is after 5 years. 

The progenoid in the chest takes *ten years* to mature. 

So, after 5 years, you have one fully mature progenoid that can be removed to make another Space Marine. 5 years later(10 total), your second Progenoid is mature. Can it be removed? Maybe. Maybe not.

I'm not really sure where you're getting your math, but organs aren't implanted all at once. So assuming you begin implantation at the earliest possible age(10 years for the 2nd Heart, 18 for the Progenoids), you're still looking at 6 years right there. Another 5 years to mature for the first, you're looking at 11 years minimum to get another mature geneseed. 

And then this is of course assuming you have a viable candidate to implant with. Space Marines don't just pick anyone to join their ranks. So if they have a low number of recruits, it could take much longer.

We read about how the process of implantation varies from Chapter Chapter, is a ritual, conducted a certain way. Given the traditional nature of the Space Marines, you can argue that the 2nd Progenoid is left in until death because that's just way the way they've been doing things from the beginning. The "evidence" in The Gildar Rift is hardly explicit. The dude himself says he's not sure what will happen.

With regards to Corax, he's not looking to increase geneseed cultivation to replace his losses. He's looking to build new Marines in days and weeks, not a matter of years. Coupled with the fact that he lost a lot of geneseed on Istavaan. The new Marines are eventually created in a matter of weeks/months, with the new marines showing high levels of aggression/skill. I forget the words used to describe them. But their faster creation and the tinkering done to the gene(before the Alpha Legion) wasn't typical Space Marine creation. 

Bottom line, there is no conclusive proof(unless as another user suggested, the IA says the second progenoid regulates the other organs). Though again, Lexicanum says the only purpose of the progenoid is absorb the genetic material from the other organs, and then once mature can be removed to make a new marine.

You can theorize all you want, but there's no hard evidence the loss of both progenoids will cause the death of a Marine.

Now I'd say its possible that the loss could/would have a deep moral impact on the guy, and so his body might start shutting down that way. Who knows.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

hailene said:


> I'm pretty darn sure there hasn't been any marines in the HH that had both their prognoids removed. They don't really touch on the geneseed issue, minus in "Deliverance Lost".
> 
> And speaking about that, geneseed seems to be the main issue with loses. That's why it takes decades if not centuries to rebuild loses.
> 
> ...


Why would you not raid geneseed banks? Not only does it benefit you, but it hurts your enemies, because the creation process is slow. 

And I'm sure if people try and speed it up, bad things happen. So you need geneseed to experiment with. If you just start implanting in any potential person, that person just might not survive the process. If not, you've just wasted geneseed. 

Geneseed can only be created from previous geneseed, not out of air. So if you're squandering your geneseed on unfit candidates, you can run out. Look at the Iron Warriors, with their Daemonculaba. That requires geneseed, though I'm not sure if its just one for the daemonculaba or one per child. Either way, their are a large number of unfit candidates as a result, with many being flushed away. 

So if each unfleshed needed a geneseed, you've just wasted a lot of geneseed. And if not, then you've just created a Space Marine that doesn't need the progenoids. 

Then there's also mutation. I'm sure those who devout themselves to Chaos don't have the most appealing geneseed, and it would probably not take hold. So you raid for fresh geneseed. Even Honsou is half and half.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Your post is fairly long. I'll respond within your post.



COMPNOR said:


> Calm down dude, You really might want to reread. The progenoid in the throat *matures* in *5 years*. After 5 years, that one can be removed and it seems that it always is after 5 years.
> 
> The progenoid in the chest takes *ten years* to mature.
> 
> ...





COMPNOR said:


> Why would you not raid geneseed banks? Not only does it benefit you, but it hurts your enemies, because the creation process is slow.
> 
> And I'm sure if people try and speed it up, bad things happen. So you need geneseed to experiment with. If you just start implanting in any potential person, that person just might not survive the process. If not, you've just wasted geneseed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support?


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

> I'm fully aware on how long it takes for geneseed to mature.



Well considering you read into something I certainly did not say about when geneseed could be harvested...






> When it reads "takes 10 years to mature" you interpret that as "can still be used before 10 years, but you make get funky results if used in another applicant"?
> 
> Not, say, the more straightforward "Isn't ready to be used until it fully matures, a process that takes 10 years".



Nowhere did I say you could remove a geneseed before it's matured and get it to work. 




> It most definitely can be removed. Could the second geneseed be removed without severe adverse affects? Survey says very likely--otherwise some Chapters or Legions would do so. Particularly the traitor or renegade Chapters.



There are what, approximately 1,000 Chapters across the entire Imperium? And how many of those have actually been fleshed out beyond a brief mention of color scheme and homeworld? Now you might say "this is pretty significant if a Chapter did it" and while I'd agree, just because we haven't read about it doesn't mean it can't happen. As for Chaos, how do we know that they haven't? Maybe they have. Maybe they realize their geneseed is so mutated it won't be any good. Maybe it will be the subject for the next anthology or Space Marine Battle book.

-----

Ok, I'm not really following your whole rolling training procedure. Right now my info comes from Lexicanum. This is my understanding: 

A geneseed is like an egg almost, that has all the required genetic material to harvest(create?) the various organs that get implanted into a Space Marine. I would assume this includes the progenoid glands. So you "open" this geneseed and begin the procedure. And the last stage is the implantation of the progenoids, which over the course of 5 and 10 years, absorb genetic info from the previous organs and mature into geneseed, which can then be harvested to create a new Space Marine. Yes? (If you've got a different better source of the creation process, I'd love to read it). 

So I'm not getting why you're taking a mature geneseed out of a recruit, and passing it on to the next, who is just a few years behind? Wouldn't recruits who have already begun the implantation series, have all the necessary organs to become a full fledged marine? So wouldn't that Mature geneseed which just got harvested to to the next viable candidate at the end of the line?

How/why are you putting a recently harvested geneseed into someone who has already begun the training/implantation process and is at the age where he would receive the Progenoid glands? Wouldn't there already be progenoids ready for implantation? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of geneseed?




> Again, no one bothers to remove the second geneseed until death. Even the Red Corsairs, as I've said before, do not even though they're desperate to increase their ranks as much and as quickly as they can. They've already thrown tradition into the wind, yet they still don't. The Gildar Rift offers a likely solution why no one removes the second geneseed until death.



Just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't believe in voodoo magic and bad juju if you remove the second one. Again, the number of Chapters that we've seen detailed workings of is extremely small. If as the Astral Claws believed that harvesting the second one is bad juju, that could very well carry over. I also don't fully believe that you could really turn your numbers around that quickly even if you harvested that second geneseed, which is why the "bad guys" are trying to get their hands on everything they can. 

I truthfully don't remember much from "The Gildar Rift", but was there any indication that Blackheart hadn't had the second geneseed removed? Or that he was scared of having it taken from him? 

I mean, we are talking about roughly 10,000 years of superstition. It could be so ingrained that they don't think about the obvious. 




> And never take the Lexicanum for face value. Look at the sources it cites.



Oh, I don't really trust it, it is the internet afterall. But right now it's all I got, so unless you have something conclusive(which you admit you don't), we're both just speculating. The only difference is you have a few lines written in a novel from an in character perspective who believes but isn't sure about the effects of losing that second progenoid. I'd argue that downhill spiral of moral after losing your second geneseed would be more damaging then the loss itself. 




> Thanks for the support?



You're welcome?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

hailene said:


> I'm pretty darn sure there hasn't been any marines in the HH that had both their prognoids removed. They don't really touch on the geneseed issue, minus in "Deliverance Lost".


As I said, I can't remember which book it was in, I know I read it in a black library book somewhere though. 



hailene said:


> Geneseed stocks is more than half the issue. Brave, hardy men are abundant in the Imperium of Man. Geneseed is much more finite.


As for 'brave hardy men', I'm fairly certain there's a little more to it than that. Take the Blood Angels and their successors as an example, they still maintain their tithe to the AdMech but their numbers are running dangerously low, as a chapter they are dying out because they can't replace their losses quickly enough, they have no shortage of gene seed, they don't have enough people to put it in.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

COMPNOR said:


> Well considering you read into something I certainly did not say about when geneseed could be harvested...
> 
> Nowhere did I say you could remove a geneseed before it's matured and get it to work.
> 
> ...


A line from an accomplished apothecary and the complete lack of anyone we've seen doing it. I could equally claim that some Space Marine Chapters aren't manned by genetically and chemically enhanced trans-humans, but some breed of super-tall, super-strong men. For all we know there could be a Chapter of exceptionally large humans masquerading as Space Marines. I have zero proof, but there are a lot of Chapters we haven't seen, so it could be true!


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

No, I meant that given Geneseed does mutate, that organs do stop working for some Chapters, that perhaps the chest progenoid itself has mutated beyond its original intention, and that the Marine will eventually start to shut down if it is removed before his death. 



> Also you can turn your numbers around much faster with a second prognoid. Keep in mind that the growth is exponential. The more geneseed you churn out the more marines you have. The more marines you have the more geneseed you churn out. Ect.


That's very true, and nowhere have I said any different. But you're really only getting a 50% return since that first progenoid takes 5 years to mature, and according to you the second one must be left in otherwise bad things happened. Coupled with say any Scouts who have undergone implantation, but haven't received the final steps, if they die you've just kinda wasted a geneseed(though I guess you could hold onto the organs "just in case"). You're still looking at what, 15 or so years before you can harvest that first progenoid? 



> They didn't do it during the HH either. We haven't seen too much post Isstvan, but we know the Imperial Fists were still running around with it afterwards.


Which I think just furthers my point, that it goes a lot further back. That even during the Heresy, we still see the rituals of the Marines going into creating new Marines. If it was really as quick as you seemed to suggest, Corax wouldn't have needed the help of the Emperor, he would have been able to rebuild quickly. 

The Badab War IA books are on my list, I guess I might need to add Blood Reaver to it too.



> The burden of proof lies on you to explain they haven't and why they don't harvest the second geneseed. Why we haven't seen one official Chapter that does.


So then what is your take on the Daemonculaba? Do the CSM they produce, which use genetic material either from Geneseed or ground up Iron Warrior have all the normal organs of a Space Marine if they turn out ok? Do they have progenoid to harvest later? Or is it not present, because it was never implanted?

And I thought I did explain why they didn't harvest. Because they have 10,000+ years of tradition and superstition behind it. That Marine in Gildar Rift didn't strike me as being afraid he might die, but ashamed because he lost a vital piece of his heritage. That it is how it has always been done, and to do so differently is heresy. Why has no official Chapter been written about? Probably because in the grand scheme of things, it's really not write worthy. Its much more interesting to talk about stealing geneseed, or taking it from fallen enemy. Or leaving it open to debates like this. Can you take it? Can you not? We simply don't know.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

COMPNOR said:


> No, I meant that given Geneseed does mutate, that organs do stop working for some Chapters, that perhaps the chest progenoid itself has mutated beyond its original intention, and that the Marine will eventually start to shut down if it is removed before his death.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It would be pretty easy to write in. In fact, they frequently do the opposite: They have characters bemoaning the loss of geneseed. The inability to harvest geneseed from dead comrades. The struggle to fight for the corpse of a brother to retrieve his geneseed from his dead body.

It would be easy to pen in that a marine felt secure knowing both his geneseed had been harvested and his legacy ensured.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Yup you're right, 10-12 depending on how they get implanted. 


> Do keep in mind that marines can be scouts for, potentially, decades. Not every dead scout is without a mature prognoid or two.


Again, I didn't say otherwise. It was more idle wondering, since Scouts can go into battle before receiving all of the implants. That if they died before receiving 'em, you just now have left over organs, and you would not be able to harvest the geneseed. This isn't some nice exact science, where you get a return on your investment. I'm sure of the implants don't take hold no matter how careful the screening is, scouts die in combat before reaching their full implant status, etc...



> I don't think so. The whole point of the GC was scientific thought. There were no gods. There was no superstition. Science ruled the day. If at any time in the 11000 odd years, it would have been during the GC that would have been least likely to fall for only "juju".


And yet lodges were formed within the Legion, and one who Legion basically declared the Emperor a God. Rituals still existed. 



> It would be pretty easy to write in. In fact, they frequently do the opposite: They have characters bemoaning the loss of geneseed. The inability to harvest geneseed from dead comrades. The struggle to fight for the corpse of a brother to retrieve his geneseed from his dead body.
> 
> It would be easy to pen in that a marine felt secure knowing both his geneseed had been harvested and his legacy ensured.


We're really not going to agree on this, and we just go in circles. 10,000+ years. Do you really want to be the first Space Marine to find out if he can survive without his geneseed? After having it indoctrinated into him? Yes, it would be easy to write in, but again in the grand scheme of things, I think it's really something minor. A thread left open so that down the road a final decision can be made if the authors so chose. Space Marines are still human, and aren't immune from the Dogma associated with things. And until it suits the authors otherwise, they leave things as they are, which is speculation. 

My other point was that just because Marines take to harvesting/steal gene seed to increase their numbers isn't proof that you can't remove the second geneseed, but that the process is slow, mutations happen, and if you're just implanting willy nilly which is how I figure a lot of CSM do it, you're going to wind up with a lot of bad failures(i.e. Unfleshed flushed down the toilet), so you need a steady supply of geneseed, which you couldn't get with traditional means.

Anyhoo, unless you got something new to bring to the table, that ends my part in this discussion.


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