# Which of these is more competitive?



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Basically I'm trying to decide between two lists (one CSM, one Ork) for a Tournament and I'm hoping people can help.

CSM list:

Tzeentch Daemon prince with wings, warptime & bolt of change - 200 points.

Tzeentch Daemon prince with wings, warptime & bolt of change - 200 points.

7 Plague Marines in a Rhino with 2 meltaguns and champion with powerfist - 256 points.

7 Plague Marines in a Rhino with 2 meltaguns and champion with powerfist - 256 points.

8 Thousand Sons & Aspiring sorcerer with doombolt in a Rhino - 289 points.

Vindicator with daemonic posession - 145 points.

Vindicator with daemonic posession - 145 points.

Tsons are the ranged support unit with the vindis covering the flanks while the PMs and DPs mount the main offensive.

Ork List:

Big Mek with KFF - 85 points.

Big Mek with KFF - 85 points.

30 Ork boyz including a Nob with Powerklaw & Bosspole - 220 points.

30 Ork boyz including a Nob with Powerklaw & Bosspole - 220 points.

30 Ork boyz including a Nob with Powerklaw & Bosspole - 220 points.

20 Ork boyz with shootas including a Nob with Powerklaw & Bosspole - 160 points.

Deff Dredd with four close combat arms - 105 points.

Deff Dredd with two Kustom Mega Blastas & two close combat arms - 105 points.

3 Killa Kans with Rokkit Launchers - 150 points.

3 Killa Kans with Rokkit Launchers - 150 points.

Basically the Meks give the cover save, the Dredds provide me with some WS4 S10 powerweapons with the second dredd potshoting at Terminators (hence the KMBs) and the like, whilst the Kans are anti-transport.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

I'll be honest I don't know Orks very well, but that CSM list has too much Tzeentch in it to be considered competitive. Other than the Plague Marines, it isn't great.

- MoT DPs are too expensive, and BoC is not a good power.
- Tsons were cool in last edition, and will be again. They're pants right now though.
- Even the Vindis should be Obliterators. I like Vindis for fun games. You need some long range guns.

Given this, I can only assume that the Ork list is better.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

drop the deff dreads from the ork army & get more boyz (preferably in trucks)

deff dreads are worthless to have shooting(with BS2) maybe give it a sorcha, just get them into CC ASAP if you keep them.

anyways the Ork list is illegal (it has 4 heavy support choices, it can only have 3)

i suggest dropping the deff dreads & get a battle wagon & put some boyz in there, not sure why you have 2 KFFs & not have 2 battle wagons since if you put them in a truck people will just target the transports that have the meks in it. then if the truck is blown up then the other trucks will either have to go only 6" (and thus hurt your chances to get into CC even more) or go 12" without the KFF...


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Zaden said:


> I'll be honest I don't know Orks very well, but that CSM list has too much Tzeentch in it to be considered competitive. Other than the Plague Marines, it isn't great.
> 
> - MoT DPs are too expensive, and BoC is not a good power.
> - Tsons were cool in last edition, and will be again. They're pants right now though.
> ...


Sadly Zaden, you've cottoned on to my main concerns. I'm fairly certain that if I swapped out the MoT DPs for Nurgle princes with wings & warptime, exchanged the Tsons for plague marines squad number 3 and changed the vindicators to obliterators, people would say it was competitive. Unfortunately it's also somewhat unoriginal (not to mention I'd feel like I was betraying something by going for a monogod list).



Fallen said:


> drop the deff dreads from the ork army & get more boyz (preferably in trucks)
> 
> deff dreads are worthless to have shooting(with BS2) maybe give it a sorcha, just get them into CC ASAP if you keep them.
> 
> ...


Fallen, first off the list isn't illegal as Big Meks allow a change to the FOC (which I'm not going into for fear of being censored).

Second, I'm confused. Why would I put trukks or battlewagons in what is clearly a footslogging list? The KFF Big Meks are there for the cover save they can grant my army, especially important for the Kans, so why would I change this for something that would split my army up too much?

Also, since you're a CSM player it would have been nice to get your verdict on that list.


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## Kastle (Feb 28, 2010)

Man i would definitely go with the Ork can wall. Looks pretty good to me, and there just isn't enough green tide around.

Are all the boyz shoota boyz or just the one squad??


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Fallen, first off the list isn't illegal as Big Meks allow a change to the FOC (which I'm not going into for fear of being censored).
> 
> Second, I'm confused. Why would I put trukks or battlewagons in what is clearly a footslogging list? The KFF Big Meks are there for the cover save they can grant my army, especially important for the Kans, so why would I change this for something that would split my army up too much?
> 
> Also, since you're a CSM player it would have been nice to get your verdict on that list.


Oops, my bad on the Ork list, I just recently bought the codex and was looking through it....so that explains the deff dread situation...*tries to figure out how to play off not noticing the lack of trucks...:blush:*

for the CSM list its alright, i dont have any reason to hate it but i would say that its not that competitive. I have a hard time running 3 cult troops in anything under 2k (i know it can be done but i just feel that my list becomes a little too one-trick-pony-ish for my liking)...

i think havocs or auto-las preds would be a better fit for your army than dual vindis, since you NEED long range shooting to counteract that the DPs & troops need to within 24" to get their best use.

i feel that generic CSM squads with a PF & 2 meltas & IoCG (255 points with a rhino IIRC) would benefit you better, perhaps in addition have a small plague squad to hold Objs & a small zerker squad for counter assaults would do wonders.

my CSM list would be:

HQ
DP: MoS LoS wings - 155 pts
DP: wings, warptime -155 pts

Troops
CSM squad* (above) - 255 pts
CSM squad* - 255 pts
plague marines: unit of 5, 2 melta guns - 135 pts
Bezerkers: unit of 10, rhino - 245 pts

Heavy Support
Auto-las Pred: 130 pts
Auto-las Pred: 130 pts
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this leaves you with 40 pts to fiddle with. but this is more of my play style (missing NMs though)...feel free to use it as a basis. Good Luck in the tourny :victory:


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