# The lion vs The Night Haunter



## nate187

Well as a space wolf biased mother fucker lol I dont really care bout this one but I am a loyalist so the question is...

The lion vs the night haunter Savage weapons 

Decribe your opinions of the fight and who had the better of who?

Me I thought it was an even fight but when it came to up close and personnal Cruze was the winner simple as that.





Cheers


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## harlokin

I kinda disagree.

The Lion was winning easily while the fight was a contest of skill, however when Curze turned it into a scrappy grapple, the advantage swung the other way.

The Lion may have been taking a few hits at the end, but Curze had carried on after being used as an impromptu sheath for the Lion's sword, so I reckon overall it was ended too early to be conclusive.

Incidentally, ADB posted on Bolter & Chainsword that he wrote the fight as a draw, which is ultimately hard to argue with. :wink:


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## forkmaster

After reading Blood Reaver we at least found out the Lion managed to cut Curzes throat.


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## Warlock in Training

What!? I just read that book and dont remember that at all. The only scene with Curze was when he was showing his Schizo around his chosen posse. What page is this on?


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## nate187

harlokin said:


> I kinda disagree.
> 
> The Lion was winning easily while the fight was a contest of skill, however when Curze turned it into a scrappy grapple, the advantage swung the other way.
> 
> The Lion may have been taking a few hits at the end, but Curze had carried on after being used as an impromptu sheath for the Lion's sword, so I reckon overall it was ended too early to be conclusive.
> 
> Incidentally, ADB posted on Bolter & Chainsword that he wrote the fight as a draw, which is ultimately hard to argue with. :wink:


Straight from ADB's mouth case closed I guess


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## gothik

The Lion is a Knight so has all the elegance of one, Night Haunter is a brawler, a killer of the dark and has all the fightinjg skills of a street fighter.....was rooting for Curze as i am not a great fan of the Lion but even i had to admit it was all going the Lions way for a bit til he had his brains used as a baattering ram.

draw i would have to agree with i coulod see no clear winner which was not a bad thing...made any future stand offs more interesting.


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## piemelke

from my opinion the lion is by far the superior warrior in a future encounter where the lion is really focussed on killing nigh haunter he does it without breaking a sweat, the only thing that nags is that night haunter seemed to rather casually block an attach from corax, that kind of fighting skill was not present in the lion duel so maybe he was holding back,
the fight actually made me think of the fight between loken and lucius, and the other brawl with lucius on istvan, lucius being by far the superior fighter but became arrogant with all the known consequences


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## harlokin

For anyone interested, below is a link to ADB's comments on the fight (post no. 14) 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=227612&st=0


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## forkmaster

Warlock in Training said:


> What!? I just read that book and dont remember that at all. The only scene with Curze was when he was showing his Schizo around his chosen posse. What page is this on?


Its the flashback when Qurze is seated upon his throne in Blood Reaver. He touches the scar on his neck/throat which his brother the Lion inflicted upon him. I read it the other day but I dont remember the exact page it was on.


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## Warlock in Training

forkmaster said:


> Its the flashback when Qurze is seated upon his throne in Blood Reaver. He touches the scar on his neck/throat which his brother the Lion inflicted upon him. I read it the other day but I dont remember the exact page it was on.


Yeah thats the Schizo scene. Ill re read it, dont remember that.


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## Schizm86

Not having read Blood Reaver I don't know anything about this supposed throat slicing, and I don't remember anything mentioning this when I read Savage Weapons - maybe I missed it. It seems though that Night Haunter won this fight pretty hands down... which I just don't get. Kurze never struck me as much of a warrior or fighter even, just a big scary dude. Sure he had to fight to live on Nostramo but that was mostly against other people. The Lion grew up on a deathworld, in the wilderness, and was then taken in by an order of warriors who trained him and who he'd led. The Lion was never anything except a fighter and surely knows how to kill a man in a million ways with a finger nail, it's not like he had any weapons to kill Calibanite monsters with when he was a youth. If anyone really wants to defend that Kurze was a better "brawler" I can't see it, unless you bring up other literature I haven't read, or just assume he'd been made stronger by Chaos powers which ADB left unsaid?


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## Malus Darkblade

Being raised on such a dark, immoral, lawless world as Nostromo is exactly the reason why Kurze is such a savage, dirty brawler who fights to kill and to inflict pain, not for glory or honor.

Just because Kurze had no equal on Nostromo doesn't take away from his fighting abilities and where is it stated that the Lion handled everything on Caliban on his own as you're implying? Pretty sure he used to hide from them until he reunited with the lost colonists.


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## harlokin

Schizm86 said:


> Not having read Blood Reaver I don't know anything about this supposed throat slicing, and I don't remember anything mentioning this when I read Savage Weapons - maybe I missed it. It seems though that Night Haunter won this fight pretty hands down... which I just don't get. Kurze never struck me as much of a warrior or fighter even, just a big scary dude. Sure he had to fight to live on Nostramo but that was mostly against other people. The Lion grew up on a deathworld, in the wilderness, and was then taken in by an order of warriors who trained him and who he'd led. The Lion was never anything except a fighter and surely knows how to kill a man in a million ways with a finger nail, it's not like he had any weapons to kill Calibanite monsters with when he was a youth. If anyone really wants to defend that Kurze was a better "brawler" I can't see it, unless you bring up other literature I haven't read, or just assume he'd been made stronger by Chaos powers which ADB left unsaid?


Curze had the advantage over the Lion at the point when the other Dark Angel intervened, but the fight wasn't over (see link to author's own comments). Both the Lion and Curze have a reputation for being formidable fighters, the former fought Russ to a draw, while the latter beat Dorn and Corax.


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## piemelke

where did you read that curze beat corax, I hope you do not refer to the first heretic


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## harlokin

piemelke said:


> where did you read that curze beat corax, I hope you do not refer to the first heretic


Heh, yup.  It's admittedly a bit of an exaggeration. 

Corax had been fighting Lorgar and the Gal Vorbak, so was at a disadvantage when Curze attacked, but he must have recognised Curze as a sufficient threat to withdraw.


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## Warlock in Training

harlokin said:


> Heh, yup.  It's admittedly a bit of an exaggeration.
> 
> Corax had been fighting Lorgar and the Gal Vorbak, so was at a disadvantage when Curze attacked, but he must have recognised Curze as a sufficient threat to withdraw.


This. Corax easily beaten Logar and had him out of the fight. Gal Vorbak were nothing to him. Its when Curze showed up, blocked his deathblow, then casually talk to Logar while ignoring Corax, and then Corax had to put effort into pulling free from a non attacking Curze just to run away speaks VOLUMES of Curze Badassness. Curze also beaten up Rogal Dorn pretty bad. Now hes going toe to toe in a draw match vs Lion. Hes Badass. Probaly one of the top 5 fighters Primarch wise.


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## piemelke

corax was taken by surprise that was not fair, still I prefer not to make it such a discussion
it all depends on the setting so in that sense it is a semantic discussion,
knightly sword fight the lion wins 
street fight, my money is on curze,
curze being one of the more badass primarchs in terms of cc, I tend to disagree, 
horus, sanguinus, fulgrim, russ, angron, khan, magnus (?) (and in my opinion corax as well) are way better, so he might be above the median but not above average


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## Words_of_Truth

Corax had been fighting The Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and World Eaters for ages, then he had to fight all the rest of the traitors when they turned, then he had to confront Lorgar, and then he had to supposedly fight a fresh Curze? Corax isn't stupid I think he knew he'd be owned. Also it's possible Horus considered Corax someone who could beat him, I can't remember the place but according to Horus only Russ and Sanguinius are the only ones to beat him and Corax was unknown as he'd never duelled him or trained him.

Curze jumped Dorn when they where having a little chat, he went bezerk and blacked out while doing it so who knows how strong that made him. It didn't appear that Dorn even fought back though so I don't think that can be included in his prowess.

Russ and The Lion fought for a day and a night, it only ended when Russ began to laugh since he found it funny, only for The Lion to sucker punched him.


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## Malus Darkblade

You make it sound like regular SM are anything more than child's play for a Primarch.

Corax didn't shed a drop of sweat when he was slaughtering regular Astartes left and right and even Lorgar was a push-over for him, Corax didn't sustain any injuries other than a broken nose.

Kurze held off his deathblow with ease, even laughing as he did so like he wasn't even thinking about the act.

Curze didn't _jump _Dorn, you can't really surprise attack a Primarch. The Lion/Russ was another matter entirely, Russ let his guard down thinking the Lion would see the childishness of the fight then he was proved wrong.

Back to Corax, I don't think he ran away primarily due to fatigue but rather he realized that he was facing the most sadistic, savage and cruel Primarch of them all which probably wasn't a person he would choose to fight on any given day. 

Kurze was unstoppable in Savage Weapons even when he was dealt countless mortal blows that made even a him, a Primarch cry out in pain and yet came out on top *in before ABD said it was a draw*.


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## Words_of_Truth

Russ let his guard down after fighting for over a day but Dorn sitting and speaking with his brother didn't?


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## Malus Darkblade

Russ and the Lion were fighting for days. 

Russ realized the fight was futile, pointless so he dropped his guard, lost his aggression/anger and laughed, expecting the Lion to do the same in a very viking-bar-esque fashion.

The Lion instead got even angrier and punched Russ square in the face.

Dorn was in the Emperor's palace when Kurze 'snuck up' on him, in a brightly lit room. Just doesn't happen.


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## harlokin

Words_of_Truth said:


> Russ let his guard down after fighting for over a day but Dorn sitting and speaking with his brother didn't?


Well, it was a fight Russ started, and then assumed that it would stop just because he couldn't win and got tired of it.

I think there was something of a row between Dorn and Curze, so wasn't completely out of the blue. In Savage weapons Curze seemed to think that Dorn sent the Lion rather than coming for Cuze himself because he was afraid


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## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> Russ and the Lion were fighting for days.
> 
> Russ realized the fight was futile, pointless so he dropped his guard, lost his aggression/anger and laughed, expecting the Lion to do the same in a very viking-bar-esque fashion.
> 
> The Lion instead got even angrier and punched Russ square in the face.
> 
> Dorn was in the Emperor's palace when Kurze 'snuck up' on him, in a brightly lit room. Just doesn't happen.


Still don't see the difference, no Primarch had attacked another Primarch in "real" anger ever up until that moment, it was a lapse in judgement on Dorn maybe but couple that with Curze going psycho and going through a phase where he wasn't in control, I think it's a bit more understandable.

If anything Russ was a fool for thinking The Lion was anything like him, he should of kept alert instead of laughing like a fool.




harlokin said:


> I think there was something of a row between Dorn and Curze, so wasn't completely out of the blue.
> 
> In Savage weapons Curze seemed to think that Dorn sent the Lion rather than coming for Cuze himself because he was afraid


Dorn was telling Curze off after Fulgrim let Dorn know about Curze's prophecy of the heresy, Dorn at this point was already considered the stone faced second favourite of the Emperor and so Curze was obviously peed off because all Curze wanted was some love and got a little frustrated by being told off by him, this brought on another episode. 

Dorn was/is scared of Curze, he says so in The Lightning Tower, in fact he says he's not afraid of confronting Horus but Curze on the other hand is something he's afraid of.


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## Warlock in Training

Im sorry but that whole Corax being tired bit sounds very weak. They're Primarchs. This tired Corax slaughtered the Gal Vorbak like they werent there, Logar fresh and more powerful than at any other point of his life had his ass kicked. Yet Curze shows up like it was no big thing and Corax (as it was written to me) seem like he did not even wanted to get involved with him. He blocked his attacked like it was no trouble and then merely acted like he wasnt even there when he chatted it up with Logar. Logar was PWN and your telling me Corax didnt have the energy to take a few swipes at Curze? Why? Was he maybe afraid? Yes I belive that is the answere.


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## Words_of_Truth

Warlock in Training said:


> Im sorry but that whole Corax being tired bit sounds very weak. They're Primarchs. This tired Corax slaughtered the Gal Vorbak like they werent there, Logar fresh and more powerful than at any other point of his life had his ass kicked. Yet Curze shows up like it was no big thing and Corax (as it was written to me) seem like he did not even wanted to get involved with him. He blocked his attacked like it was no trouble and then merely acted like he wasnt even there when he chatted it up with Logar. Logar was PWN and your telling me Corax didnt have the energy to take a few swipes at Curze? Why? Was he maybe afraid? Yes I belive that is the answere.


I dunno, Corax had been fighting for god knows how long against four traitors legion then he had to fight against every other legion that turned traitor, jumping from the most extreme fighting to the next (does say this). He was also fighting against "buffed" troops after Lorgar used his psychic ability on his men. Who knows whether it really did tire him, but mentally I don't think he'd want to take on Curze and to be quite honest, if Curze really wanted to take on Corax he would of done a hell of a lot more than simply hold him.


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## Angel of Blood

Fucking hell these 'Corax ran away cause hes scared of Curze' posts that always keep appearing are getting tiring. No matter how easy it was to kill and the shit he was killing, Corax had still been fighting for a very, very long amount of time, he was by no means fresh. Then he battled Lorgar, sure he made Lorgar his bitch, but its still gonna take quite a bit out of him and hes now one claw down. In steps Kurze, completely fresh, no fatigue and all weapons intact. And don't forget Lorgar is not out of the fight completely, he begins healing and recovering from his wounds almost immediately after Corax leaves. The fight with Curze isn't going to be over in a flash, which means Corax could potentially have Lorgar stepping in at any moment, which could easily be a fatal distraction. All the odds were stacked against Corax for the fight. It makes every shred of tactical and logical sense to withdraw at this point. You also make it sound like Corax was dealing some mighty unblockable deathblow of doom, which it really wasn't, Lorgar was ready to die and unable to prevent it. Corax was going for the quick execution finish, it was hardly something a fighter of similar calibre would have trouble blocking.


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## Phoebus

The more information we get on the Primarchs, the more I think that an attempt to stratify them in terms of combat prowess is more or less moot. With the exception of the likes of Lorgar - who qualified himself as being less a warrior than his brethren - it seems to be is becoming increasingly apparent that the Primarchs are simply too close to one another in terms of levels of power.

Are there variances between them? Sure. Angron, for instance, has implants that put him on a different level than other Primarchs. One could plausibly argue that what he lacks in lucidity and control he makes up for in pain threshhold and aggressiveness. Maybe that could mean the difference between him and another Primarch; see, for instance, police reports on the effects PCP, Angel Dust, and other drugs have on criminals and how difficult it can be to detain them while under their influence.

Likewise, Curze seems to have been the victim of a violent schizophrenic episode when he assaulted Dorn. How much of a factor was that in their fight? Even trained, life-long warriors can be caught by surprise by an opponet's unexpected savagery/ferocity. Was Curze really that superior a warrior, or was the conventionally disciplined, stoic Dorn caught by surprise when his brother turned into frothing maniac and tried to (I don't know) bite his larynx or something like that?

And finally, there might be variations that don't have much to do with individual prowess at all. See Corax's jet pack or Sanguinius' wings, for instance.

For the most part, though, I think the Primarchs are too evenly matched to tell apart. I suspect that Alpharius, Dorn, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Guilliman, the Khan, the Lion, Magnus, Mortarion, Perturabo, Russ, and Vulkan could all have been written as fighting each other (in most any pairing) and coming away with a comfortable draw.

Cheers,
P.


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## Erik_Morkai

I think Corax simply went with logic. If he got bogged down in a fight with Curze nobody would be clearing the way for the Raven Guard.

He simply thought, if I can't get this done in 3 seconds flat then I don't have the time right now.

In another time, another place without the fate of his legion hanging above his head. Things might have gone differently.


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## harlokin

Phoebus said:


> The more information we get on the Primarchs, the more I think that an attempt to stratify them in terms of combat prowess is more or less moot. With the exception of the likes of Lorgar - who qualified himself as being less a warrior than his brethren - it seems to be is becoming increasingly apparent that the Primarchs are simply too close to one another in terms of levels of power.
> 
> Are there variances between them? Sure. Angron, for instance, has implants that put him on a different level than other Primarchs. One could plausibly argue that what he lacks in lucidity and control he makes up for in pain threshhold and aggressiveness. Maybe that could mean the difference between him and another Primarch; see, for instance, police reports on the effects PCP, Angel Dust, and other drugs have on criminals and how difficult it can be to detain them while under their influence.
> 
> Likewise, Curze seems to have been the victim of a violent schizophrenic episode when he assaulted Dorn. How much of a factor was that in their fight? Even trained, life-long warriors can be caught by surprise by an opponet's unexpected savagery/ferocity. Was Curze really that superior a warrior, or was the conventionally disciplined, stoic Dorn caught by surprise when his brother turned into frothing maniac and tried to (I don't know) bite his larynx or something like that?
> 
> And finally, there might be variations that don't have much to do with individual prowess at all. See Corax's jet pack or Sanguinius' wings, for instance.
> 
> For the most part, though, I think the Primarchs are too evenly matched to tell apart. I suspect that Alpharius, Dorn, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Guilliman, the Khan, the Lion, Magnus, Mortarion, Perturabo, Russ, and Vulkan could all have been written as fighting each other (in most any pairing) and coming away with a comfortable draw.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


That's all well and sensible, but rather detracts from the fun of annoying one-another by denigrating the perceived merits and flaws of one another's favoured fictional characters.

Or in other words, Corax ran away like a little girl because Curze was about to wftpwn him :grin:


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## Malus Darkblade

You guys make it seem like Curze just bunny hopped his way towards Corax, petted a puppy along the way and didn't have to fight his way through either.


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## Phoebus

Fair enough, harlokin. :biggrin:

In all honesty, though, I really don't think Corax was running out of fear of death or Curze. I think Eric_Morkai is spot on, in fact. Corax fights wars a certain way. He's calculating. He attacks and defends on his own terms, and is perfectly happy to delay, distract, cede ground, etc., if it means that when he does strike he does so with an overwhelming advantage. Fighting Curze at that point would have been the personal equivalent to him hurling one hundred dismounted Ravenguard with bolt pistols and chainswords against one hundred dismounted Night Lords with bolt pistols and chainswords, in the open , into pitched battle. It's just not his style.

Malus,

Let's be fair here. Corax fought through the entire battle of Isstvan V as part of an outnumbered vanguard arrayed against four other Legions. Curze arrived with the second assaulting wave; he and his warriors enjoyed the advantage of surprise AND the fact that the Ravenguard were battered and admittedly happy to be pulling out of the fight. I'm not trying to give you a DEFINITIVE answer, but I think it's fair to easy that Curze and the Night Lords were fresher by the time he and Corax faced each other. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training

harlokin said:


> That's all well and sensible, but rather detracts from the fun of annoying one-another by denigrating the perceived merits and flaws of one another's favoured fictional characters.
> 
> Or in other words, Corax ran away like a little girl because Curze was about to wftpwn him :grin:





Malus Darkblade said:


> You guys make it seem like Curze just bunny hopped his way towards Corax, petted a puppy along the way and didn't have to fight his way through either.


:goodpost::laugh: Triple that!


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## Malus Darkblade

Phoebus said:


> Malus,
> 
> Let's be fair here. Corax fought through the entire battle of Isstvan V as part of an outnumbered vanguard arrayed against four other Legions. Curze arrived with the second assaulting wave; he and his warriors enjoyed the advantage of surprise AND the fact that the Ravenguard were battered and admittedly happy to be pulling out of the fight. I'm not trying to give you a DEFINITIVE answer, but I think it's fair to easy that Curze and the Night Lords were fresher by the time he and Corax faced each other.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


Do we know Corax fought for a majority of the ambush/massacre? I'm quite certain he was being protected by a retinue of the Raven Guard for a majority of the event. He was too stunned to probably to do anything else and didn't believe what he was seeing only to finally pull out of his reverie when he realized what was truly happening and what would happen if he didn't do anything. His brothers had betrayed him and their father. 

And that's when Kor Phaenon/Erebus took notice of the carnage he inflicted upon the traitor forces in one part of the battlefield and when Lorgar decided to meet him head on when he alone realized what Corax's motives were for entering the scene right then and there.

My 2c.


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## Words_of_Truth

It stated Corax was jumping from where the fighting was hardest to the next hardest fight.


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## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> It stated Corax was jumping from where the fighting was hardest to the next hardest fight.


_‘You do not understand,’ Lorgar shouted over the din. ‘My brother is not fleeing. He has flown to where the fighting is thickest. He is cleaving a path to his gunships, drawing the worst of our firepower, so his sons might escape._

If that's the quote you were referring to, I don't see how it goes against what I said.


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## Words_of_Truth

You seem to think even fighting for hours on end and then fighting at the thickest doesn't tire a Primarch. 

He's fighting Astartes btw, not chopping through pathetic xenos or humans but battle hardened astartes who have extraordinary accuracy. I just think the idea that you think he ran because he was scared, rather than being tired, at a tactical disadvantage, doing it for a logical reasons seems to be flawed because you favour Curze.

There's plenty of other posts prior to mine that make the argument a lot better, but you seem intent on dismissing them for no reason.


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## Angel of Blood

From every example possible we have seen, the Primarchs do not fight by surrounding themselves with a retuine of bodyguards and taking it easy. They lead directly from the front, fighting the hardest, toughest foes. Corax is clearly a highly active primarch and i have no doubt at all that he would have been in the thick of the fighting from the moment he made planetfall. Where do you make the assumption that he would have been happily protected or indeed stunned? Ferrus only paused for a few moments before launching himself back at Fulgrim and Corax seemed just as furious as Ferrus did.

In Fulgrim it says " Corax darted like a dark bird of prey, leaping through the air with his winged jump pack and killing with every stroke of his mighty talons."

In The First Heretic "The loyal primarchs could be found where the fighting was thickest"

Add those with the quote you have already provided and its clear that Corax has been in the thick of the fighting non stop. Kurze by comparison has literally just made planetfall and has only had to fight loyalist astartes who are battered, damaged, fatigued, mostly without ammo and having just been completely taken by suprise.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm quite certain he was being protected by a retinue of the Raven Guard for a majority of the event. He was too stunned to probably to do anything else and didn't believe what he was seeing


That is a massive, massive assumption on your part. Nothing in any of the books gives any indication of this. We are told he is fighting in the thickest areas of the battlefield, jumping between them where needed. Next time we see him he is slaughtering the Gal Vorbak, again the toughest area. Nowhere does it even begin to suggest he was being protected by a retuine the whole time or was stunned into inaction.


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## Words_of_Truth

I believe he came out of the battle almost solo as well according to A Raven's flight, even then he went into action solo against a whole Astartes force wielding nothing but a Heavy Bolter.


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## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Words_of_Truth said:


> You seem to think even fighting for hours on end and then fighting at the thickest doesn't tire a Primarch.
> 
> He's fighting Astartes btw, not chopping through pathetic xenos or humans but battle hardened astartes who have extraordinary accuracy. I just think the idea that you think he ran because he was scared, rather than being tired, at a tactical disadvantage, doing it for a logical reasons seems to be flawed because you favour Curze.
> 
> There's plenty of other posts prior to mine that make the argument a lot better, but you seem intent on dismissing them for no reason.


Let's enter the fray :biggrin:

I can't believe that people would think that Corax was tired. Primarchs have been shown to have incredible regenerative powers. Just look at Lorgar; he was so wounded he couldn't move (was on his knees at the mercy of Corax). Moments later he was walking, even though he'd been disemboweled! If you can heal injuries that fast, surely you can catch you breath and regain your muscle strength even faster. I have never read that a Primarch has been tired or seriously hurt except when fighting another primarch. Heck, you hardly ever read about Astartes being tired, and they are like children compared to the Primarchs. 

In my opinion there are a few things that could explain Corax's behavior:

He only had one claw left (although he did have his ridiculous whip that could shear Terminators in two). This is a serious disadvantage IMHO.
He was more interested in saving his legion than get into a fight with yet another enemy Primarch (although with this mindset, he probably shouldn't have fought Lorgar either).
He was surrounded by enemy Astartes as he seems to have been the only Raven Guard around (although he was surrounded by enemy Astartes when he was fighting Lorgar as well).
In my opinion there are a few things that speaks in Curze's favor:

Once Corax realizes who he is facing he starts to plead with Curze. Unless Corax genuinely thinks he can sway Curze this is a sign of "hey brother, lets not be hatin'. We don't have to fight." Just the fact that he says Konrad instead of Curze is to me an indication of this. Corax seemed to actively hate Lorgar for the betrayal, but he was _pleading _with Curze, who had committed the same betrayal. I wouldn't go so far as saying Corax fears Curze, but this pleading surely stands for something.
Is Curze insane? Probably yes. Is he stupid when it comes to fighting? Probably not, based on the info we have on him. Is he a trusting person? Most likely not. Now, if you are holding off someone who you think is a stronger/better fighter than you, would you turn your full attention _away _from that person? I know I wouldn't. You'd have to be pretty damn confident to behave the way Curze behaved towards Corax. This confidence must be based on something...
Is Corax a smart warrior? Probably. Does he care about his legion? It seems like it. Was his legion getting creamed like never before? Most definitely yes. Then why the hell did he not sucker punch Curze à la Lionel Johnson in order to do whatever he could to save his legion? Curze wasn't wearing a helmet, both his arms were locked together with Corax's remaining claw and his attention was elsewhere. Corax later demonstrate that he would resort to almost anything (mutants?) in order to help the Emperor. If he takes out Curze with a sucker punch he will be able to kill two enemy Primarchs. But does he chance it? No, he bails out after struggling to get free.
I just don't see how someone can think Corax is superior to Curze after having read that encounter. 

To give Corax the benefit of the doubt I would say that he _at least_ is so unsure of the outcome of a potential fight between Curze and himself that he didn't want to risk it. 

Cheers

P.S. Lorgar seems very human to me. A refreshing difference from all the other "stereotyped" Primarchs. D.S.


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## Words_of_Truth

None of the Primarchs apart from Magnus had any love for Lorgar it appears. It was probably common knowledge that he was a pathetic warrior thus why Corax decided to make him way, while deciding not to get into a prolonged fight with Curze, though I still think Corax could of beat him if he had both his weapons as well as more fuel in his jump pack.


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## Angel of Blood

I don't think anyone has suggested Corax is superior to Kurze. Just that he didn't flee because he was scared of Kurze. Kurze entering the fray stacks the odds against Corax, he now has two Primarchs to deal with, one may be a pathetic fighter, but as i've said before, Corax couldnt afford any kind of distractions fighting an oppononet like Kurze.

No matter how uber powerful primarchs are, theres still going to be a difference when its fresh as a daisy vs battle-wearied. 

On the point of you saying he wanted to get away to his legion so perhaps shouldnt have engaged Lorgar. Lorgar did charge Corax, not the other way round, couple this with Coraxs wrath and he's going to fight. He also was probably very confident he could beat Lorgar quickly, which was shown to be true. Kurze would very likely be a much more drawn out affair, something he cannot afford when his legion is being slaughtered all around him.


----------



## gothik

i was interested in the line _"Come back little raven we have unfinished buisness"_ which made me wonder if there was a previous altercation that we do not know about yet.

I do not believe that Corax ran away with his tail between his legs, as was stated he was battling to ensure that his sons made thier evacuation point, of course some of his sons are going to want to join thier father in the fight but they were getting butchered and like the Salamanders and Iron Hands they needed to get away not just to tend to thier wounded but save their leigon.

Corax had probably seen Ferrus's fate at the hands of Fulgrim and no one knew what had happened to Vulcan until later and as the only loyalist Primarch still standing maybe he thought he had a duty to ensure that his brother and the sons of three broken leigons needed to get the hell out of here.

Corax in my opinion does not fear anyone, and to me i do not believe that he and Curze are so very far apart, thier tactics are similiar and who knows had fate not been so unkind to Curze then they might well have ended up close, however they shared one view on Lorgar, Corax thought him a madman gone in the head with his theological views and fanatacism, and Curze thought him a waste of space.

in heading off for another fight i suspect he was drawing Curze away to ensure that the Night Lords Father did not turn his attention to other fleeing astartes of the Raven Guard. has nothing to do with fear and maybe that vexed Curze, Corax does not fear him and Curze, like his sons feed off the effects of fear like a drug.

if anything i thought that the battle at Istvaan started to show Lorgars madness that he could not believe what it was that he had started, his own brothers killing each other in the name of power and in his case idiology, of course i don't think he realises how Kor Phaeron and Erebus have manipulated him or how weak they think he truely is.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> From every example possible we have seen, the Primarchs do not fight by surrounding themselves with a retuine of bodyguards.


Not in the mood to find the exact quote, but I'm quite certain in Fulgrim we see the Phonecian surrounding himself with bodyguards on that planet Lanesh(sp?) and wasn't it the same with Horus in the battle of Ullanor (sp?) ?



Angel of Blood said:


> They lead directly from the front, fighting the hardest, toughest foes. Corax is clearly a highly active primarch and i have no doubt at all that he would have been in the thick of the fighting from the moment he made planetfall. Where do you make the assumption that he would have been happily protected or indeed stunned? Ferrus only paused for a few moments before launching himself back at Fulgrim and Corax seemed just as furious as Ferrus did.


I am not questioning the fact that a Primarch would prefer to be in the thick of things, not at all. But given the circumstances of Istaavan, especially it being the first real sign of the Heresy I would assume a Primarch would be baffleled, trying to make sense of everything before blindly jumping into the fray. 

It is an assumption, I do not deny this but dare I say it's a very accurate one based on how we've seen the Primarchs react to the notion of betraying one another. 

One quick example off the top of my head is when Dorn and the other Primarchs dismiss Curze's predictions because the very thought is something that disturbed them to the core. There are several more examples but I can't think of them at the moment.

Ferrus and Fulgrim's encounter when the former realizes whats going on involved quite a bit of dialog before they both decided they weren't going to change their minds no? I haven't read the novel in a long time.

In any case, this has always been how it's been written when a loyal Primarch confronts his traitorous brother, both Primarchs trying to convince the other to mend their ways or join their cause. They've never simply lashed out at one another.

TLDR: Corax takes a few hours/skirmishes to shake off the surreality of the ambush then takes matters into his own hands.



Angel of Blood said:


> In Fulgrim it says " Corax darted like a dark bird of prey, leaping through the air with his winged jump pack and killing with every stroke of his mighty talons."
> 
> In The First Heretic "The loyal primarchs could be found where the fighting was thickest"
> 
> Add those with the quote you have already provided and its clear that Corax has been in the thick of the fighting non stop. Kurze by comparison has literally just made planetfall and has only had to fight loyalist astartes who are battered, damaged, fatigued, mostly without ammo and having just been completely taken by suprise.


Again I am not questioning the fact that a Primarch would naturally want to be where the real action is. The quote about Corax simply describes the manner in which he deal with the lesser Astartes and makes no indication that it was the first thing he did when he saw the first bolter shell explode against one of his sons.

Battered Astartes or not, it matters not to a Primarch. A Primarch is what an Astartes is to a regular human only magnified perhaps tenfold, it matters not what their condition is.



Angel of Blood said:


> That is a massive, massive assumption on your part. Nothing in any of the books gives any indication of this. We are told he is fighting in the thickest areas of the battlefield, jumping between them where needed. Next time we see him he is slaughtering the Gal Vorbak, again the toughest area. Nowhere does it even begin to suggest he was being protected by a retuine the whole time or was stunned into inaction.


It is an assumption but one that I think is accurate given all the stories and mini-stories that portrayed how a Primarch and the Emperor himself reacted to the Heresy + a bit of my opinion.

Another assumption but one I think is likely is that Corax dismissed his retinue who probably begged him to reconsider, in order to draw majority of the traitor legion's attention. Also given his ability to render himself invisible to his enemies (as seen in Raven's Flight), it wouldn't make sense for him to reveal his position by having a group of his most favored sons surrounding a particular area.

@no-pain: very good post, I agree with a lot of your points.


----------



## gothik

personally i don't think enough has been written about Corax and the Raven guard in general, just the odd appearances as supportinng characters. apart from Raven Flight is there anything out there that deals with the Raven Guard?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Nothing massive, but Deliverance Lost is a HH book based on them. There's the old Index Astartes article which gives his background as well other info about them. An interesting point though is that Corax never saw eye to eye with Horus and in fact was the only Primarch not to train or spar with him either.


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Words_of_Truth said:


> [...] while deciding not to get into a prolonged fight with Curze, though I still think Corax could of beat him if he had both his weapons as well as more fuel in his jump pack.


Based on what?

Cheers


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think anyone has suggested Corax is superior to Kurze. Just that he didn't flee because he was scared of Kurze. Kurze entering the fray stacks the odds against Corax, he now has two Primarchs to deal with, one may be a pathetic fighter, but as i've said before, Corax couldnt afford any kind of distractions fighting an oppononet like Kurze.


I agree in that I find it hard to picture a Primarch afraid of _anything_. The portrait of Dorn in "the Lightning Tower" is just... disappointing. And wierd.



Angel of Blood said:


> No matter how uber powerful primarchs are, theres still going to be a difference when its fresh as a daisy vs battle-wearied.


Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :wink:


Angel of Blood said:


> On the point of you saying he wanted to get away to his legion so perhaps shouldnt have engaged Lorgar. Lorgar did charge Corax, not the other way round, couple this with Coraxs wrath and he's going to fight.


But Corax had a jump pack. Why not use to get away from Lorgar, just like he used it to get away from Curze? 

Corax's wrath? Wrath against Lorgar, but not against Curze?


Angel of Blood said:


> He also was probably very confident he could beat Lorgar quickly, which was shown to be true. Kurze would very likely be a much more drawn out affair, something he cannot afford when his legion is being slaughtered all around him.


Makes sense.

Cheers


----------



## Malus Darkblade

@WoT: I can almost promise you that if any of the Primarchs (excluding a few) were in Curze's shoes during his fight with the Lion, they would have stayed down the moment one of the Dark Angels plunged a huge sword into their spine or at least for a few moments.

Curze is who he is through sheer willpower alone, not because he's necessarily super strong like Vulkan/Mannus but because he's so full of hate, it compels him and drives him on past almost anything.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

no pain no gain said:


> Based on what?
> 
> Cheers


Remember I did say "could".

My basis though is that Corax would be more mobile, he had weapons in the form of his wings, he's pretty brutal but also very skilful with his power claws. Curze is a brute pure and simple, yes he flattened but Dorn but that was when he was going psycho. 

He was on the losing end of a duel with the Lion and only got back into it when he took the Lion down to the ground, he'd have a much bigger problem with Corax due to his jump pack.

Overall I just think in a one to one battle Corax has more of an advantage than Curze does, this is where the "could" comes into it.

Now I'm not entirely sure what Curze was armed with, but Corax had his wings which could shear through power armour like butter, two lightning claws, and a power whip which also could shear through power armour easily.

On the issue of why he went for Lorgar, it's pretty obvious he wanted to take him out because he knew he could and he nearly did. Lorgar was buffing his troops he was also wielding a very cumbersome weapon which only hit once. I don't think Corax is stupid enough to face two Primarchs at once even one which had a claw stuck in him.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Malus Darkblade said:


> @WoT: I can almost promise you that if any of the Primarchs (excluding a few) were in Curze's shoes during his fight with the Lion, they would have stayed down the moment one of the Dark Angels plunged a huge sword into their spine or at least for a few moments.
> 
> Curze is who he is through sheer willpower alone, not because he's necessarily super strong like Vulkan/Mannus but because he's so full of hate, it compels him and drives him on past almost anything.



No offence but that just sounds like blatant Kurze fanboyism. There's nothing to suggest any of the primarchs couldn't deal with such a blow aswell or that night haunted was any more resilient, in every instance of seeing primarchs fight a hard fight or take serious wounds they have all recovered very very quickly. Kurze is no exception to the rest.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> Remember I did say "could".
> 
> My basis though is that Corax would be more mobile, he had weapons in the form of his wings, he's pretty brutal but also very skilful with his power claws. Curze is a brute pure and simple, yes he flattened but Dorn but that was when he was going psycho.


He did not go psycho. When you get into a fight, the adrenaline tends to make you not even remember how the fight went and the details of a fight usually come from a third party as a result.

Even if he did go psycho, so what? How does that diminish his fighting capabilities?



Words_of_Truth said:


> He was on the losing end of a duel with the Lion and only got back into it when he took the Lion down to the ground, he'd have a much bigger problem with Corax due to his jump pack.


He wasn't on the losing end with the Lion, far from it. You make it sound like you didn't read the novel. The Lion was going to die from suffocation until one of the Dark Angels saved him. Not sure how ADB claimed it was a draw (I read he said this from another source so it may be made up).

Corax has a jet pack. So what? He has to come close to fight regardless and the Night Lords of all legions are no strangers to aerial combat.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Now I'm not entirely sure what Curze was armed with, but Corax had his wings which could shear through power armour like butter, two lightning claws, and a power whip which also could shear through power armour easily.


Curze had his own set of claws, I'm not sure if they were power-claws but they were formidable. Corax had wings that could shear through Astartes armor. Primarch armor can shrug off bolter shells like they're made of air. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> On the issue of why he went for Lorgar, it's pretty obvious he wanted to take him out because he knew he could and he nearly did. Lorgar was buffing his troops he was also wielding a very cumbersome weapon which only hit once. I don't think Corax is stupid enough to face two Primarchs at once even one which had a claw stuck in him.


Corax didn't confront Lorgar, it was the opposite. So he didn't plan anything or think he could take on Lorgar. He just managed to be a better fighter when they did fight. 

Why was the mace Lorgar wielded cumbersome? It seemed quite capable of doing damage and it did in fact. 

Lorgar was out of the fight by the time Curze showed up, and I'm sure Corax could have moved to another location to duel Curze one on one if he thought he could best him alone but he didn't.




Angel of Blood said:


> No offence but that just sounds like blatant Kurze fanboyism. There's nothing to suggest any of the primarchs couldn't deal with such a blow aswell or that night haunted was any more resilient, in every instance of seeing primarchs fight a hard fight or take serious wounds they have all recovered very very quickly. Kurze is no exception to the rest.


Not sure if you're familiar with the Malus Darkblade series by Abnett but Curze reminds me of him. Darkblade got through a lot of physical pain through sheer will alone and Curze is in the same boat. None of the Primarchs have shown the levels of hatred Curze has and we have seen what he has been capable of when channeling this vindictive hatred.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> He did not go psycho. When you get into a fight, the adrenaline tends to make you not even remember how the fight went and the details of a fight usually come from a third party as a result.
> 
> Even if he did go psycho, so what? How does that diminish his fighting capabilities?
> 
> 
> 
> He wasn't on the losing end with the Lion, far from it. You make it sound like you didn't read the novel. The Lion was going to die from suffocation until one of the Dark Angels saved him. Not sure how ADB claimed it was a draw (I read he said this from another source so it may be made up).
> 
> Corax has a jet pack. So what? He has to come close to fight regardless and the Night Lords of all legions are no strangers to aerial combat.
> 
> 
> 
> Curze had his own set of claws, I'm not sure if they were power-claws but they were formidable. Corax had wings that could shear through Astartes armor. Primarch armor can shrug off bolter shells like they're made of air.
> 
> 
> 
> Corax didn't confront Lorgar, it was the opposite. So he didn't plan anything or think he could take on Lorgar. He just managed to be a better fighter when they did fight.
> 
> Why was the mace Lorgar wielded cumbersome? It seemed quite capable of doing damage and it did in fact.
> 
> Lorgar was out of the fight by the time Curze showed up, and I'm sure Corax could have moved to another location to duel Curze one on one if he thought he could best him alone but he didn't.


He did go psycho, who knows what going psycho does to a night lord, especially a primarch but it probably gave him even more strength and unbound rage.

When I said losing end, I mean if it was to go down to points, the Lion would of won. Curze was fleeing from him for the majority of the fight and had two blades put through him. It was only when he went to ground he gained the upper hand.

He had a jet pack, he could do a lot more than Curze could do, that's what I'm getting at, it also gave him an added way of attack that curze didn't have.

Yeah Lorgar advanced on Corax but Corax didn't have to confront him, he could of flew away then that's what I was pointing to.

The weapon was cumbersome in relation to not being able to hit Corax due to Corax's skill and agility. It was made by Vulkan who carried a weapon no one else was said to be able to lift.

As I stated before if Corax had full fuel and both weapons, not having Lorgar around, he could of beaten Curze one on one, I was answering a question based on a previous comment I made. As it was he had one claw and had to use his reserves to fly away.

Curze wasn't one of the greatest primarchs, if he was so good he would of been aware of the marine about to stab him in the back, there's a lot of indications where Primarchs slip up.

I don't particularly love or hate Corax, my favourite is Dorn, I'm just trying to provide an unbiased account as to how I saw either fights.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> He did go psycho, who knows what going psycho does to a night lord, especially a primarch but it probably gave him even more strength and unbound rage.


Show me where he went psycho.



Words_of_Truth said:


> When I said losing end, I mean if it was to go down to points, the Lion would of won. Curze was fleeing from him for the majority of the fight and had two blades put through him. It was only when he went to ground he gained the upper hand.


I wouldn't say he was fleeing. He was trying to distance himself as he thought of tactics and strategies. The Lion was obviously the better swordsman so Curze needed time to think.



Words_of_Truth said:


> He had a jet pack, he could do a lot more than Curze could do, that's what I'm getting at, it also gave him an added way of attack that curze didn't have.


As I said, Curze of all the Primarchs probably knows a thing or two about dealing with flying enemies and Corax despite being able to fly, would still have to come into melee range to handle Curze.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah Lorgar advanced on Corax but Corax didn't have to confront him, he could of flew away then that's what I was pointing to.


Corax was furious and had no clue as to what was going on or why his brothers were killing them. He had to talk to one of them and he probably was doing two things at once, serving as a distraction and fighting his way towards Lorgar. 

There was no chance he was going to leave the planet without looking into the eyes of his brother and seeing what he had become.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The weapon was cumbersome in relation to not being able to hit Corax due to Corax's skill and agility. It was made by Vulkan who carried a weapon no one else was said to be able to lift.


Corax had a jet-pack, it makes hitting him harder and most of the time their weapons were locked together so Lorgar was getting in a lot of hits only to be parried by Corax.

Don't know about the no one being able to lift Vulkan's weapon bit, a Primarch has no such limitations.



Words_of_Truth said:


> As I stated before if Corax had full fuel and both weapons, not having Lorgar around, he could of beaten Curze one on one, I was answering a question based on a previous comment I made. As it was he had one claw and had to use his reserves to fly away.


What brings fuel into the picture? Why does it even matter? It's not like Corax was flying around 24/7, he used it in quick bursts and it runs on nuclear power cells which don't expire in one battle no matter how many times you abuse it.

And you don't need a claw to fight as a Primarch as we've seen with Curze tackling the Lion and turning the fight into a wrestling match.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Curze wasn't one of the greatest primarchs, if he was so good he would of been aware of the marine about to stab him in the back, there's a lot of indications where Primarchs slip up.


None of them were the greatest, they all had their flaws, weaknesses and strengths.

And as I've already stated, when you're so full of hate and when you're in a fight, your vision, your hearing, you get a severe case of tunnel vision as all of your senses get zoomed in on who you're fighting, nothing else. 

If you've ever been in a fight and if someone hits you from behind, you probably won't register the attack for quite sometime but the severity of the attack on Curze was something that could not of been ignored.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't particularly love or hate Corax, my favourite is Dorn, I'm just trying to provide an unbiased account as to how I saw either fights.


As am I despite what some people assume. : )


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> No offence but that just sounds like blatant Kurze fanboyism. There's nothing to suggest any of the primarchs couldn't deal with such a blow aswell or that night haunted was any more resilient, in every instance of seeing primarchs fight a hard fight or take serious wounds they have all recovered very very quickly. Kurze is no exception to the rest.


Except for Russ, who seems to have one heck of a glas jaw. Stick a sword in him, and he just gets angrier, but punch him in the jaw, and it's lights out. :biggrin:

Edit: Come to think of it, didn't Fulgrim get all cry-baby over a little slash to the stomach in his second duel against Manus?


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Words_of_Truth said:


> When I said losing end, I mean if it was to go down to points, the Lion would of won. Curze was fleeing from him for the majority of the fight and had two blades put through him. It was only when he went to ground he gained the upper hand.


Ah, but this was no sparring match. The Lion was out to kill Curze. The only thing keeping Curze alive was the fact that, although severely wounded, he was still faster than the Lion. 

Saying that "it was only when he went to ground he gained the upper hand" is a moot argument. It's like saying to the no. 1 boxer in the world; "-Let's fight, but you can only kick or grapple". Why is Ultimate fighting called Ultimate fighting? Because unlike boxing, wrestling, kick-boxing, K1, Muay-Thai etc. etc. everything goes. 

The incident described is a life and death situation; and there are no rules or points, only life and death.

In fact, I get the notion that Curze was holding back somewhat. It wasn't until the Lion showed his color as a goody-two-shoes and making it clear how superior in character he was to Curze (kinda like "there is no strife within my Legion, my Legion is the best blah blah") that Curze had had it. 

As a side note I just love the Lion sucker punching Curze. In my view, the Lion is no ultra-noble Knight. Sure, he has knightly virtues, but he is first and foremost a calculating, logical pragmatist who would do what is necessary (=anything) to win (not like the honorable Dorn:wink. I assume he felt he needed some handicap against Curze so he sucker punched Curze. He doesn't like the fact that he needs to resort to such underhand tactics in order to win, so he apologizes to Curze; so very much in character (great work ADB).

Now, if Curze just got a sword through his belly, it's not very surprising if he takes a defensive stance. An Astartes would be dead, but a Primarch just needs some time to heal up. Having the Lion advancing on him (their weapons clashed several times per second) there is not much else Curze could do, short of running away (he didn't have a jump pack to help him out like someone else we all know:wink.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The weapon was cumbersome in relation to not being able to hit Corax due to Corax's skill and agility. It was made by Vulkan who carried a weapon no one else was said to be able to lift.


Actually, the weapon was made by Manus, who threw it one-handed to Lorgar, who caught it one-handed. Was it big and heavy? Yes, but probably not extraordinarily so, by Primarch standards. For example, there is no indication that it was heavier than Perturabo's hammer or the hammer Fulgrim made for Manus. And why would Lorgar penalize himself by using a weapon that's too heavy for him?



Words_of_Truth said:


> Curze wasn't one of the greatest primarchs, if he was so good he would of been aware of the marine about to stab him in the back, there's a lot of indications where Primarchs slip up.


He definitively wasn't one of the greatest; he was a wretch of a Primarch. But he definitively seems to have been one of the absolute best fighters out of the bunch. 

And why not? I find it really cool that this misfit has _something_ going for him. Primarchs like Sanguinius, Guilliman and Fulgrim are so perfect and boring. Take Horus for example: He's handsome, charming and has a great personality. He's a military genius and a diplomat without peer. AND he's a top fighter... How boring can you get? Here comes Horus "He-Man" Lupercal, the man, the myth, the legen... zzz... :lazy2:

Cheers

P.S. Thanks to that sucker punch the Lion has shown me there is a completely new side to him and I must say i'm impressed. He is starting to become one of my favorites now. More on him from ADB please. D.S.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> Show me where he went psycho.


The first two pages of _The Dark King_ is about Curze going psycho and having visions of death and destruction before coming to and him being perched on Dorn's body when Sigismund enters the room. I can't write down the whole part as it's against the rules.



no pain no gain said:


> Actually, the weapon was made by Manus, who threw it one-handed to Lorgar, who caught it one-handed. Was it big and heavy? Yes, but probably not extraordinarily so, by Primarch standards. For example, there is no indication that it was heavier than Perturabo's hammer or the hammer Fulgrim made for Manus. And why would Lorgar penalize himself by using a weapon that's too heavy for him?


Ah probably got mixed up cause I was reading P_romethean Sun_ recently.


----------



## gothik

archetypal red mist descened and Curze knew no more until he came back to his senses on top of Dorn i would say that is goiing psycho. The slaughter of the Phoenixguards and the Fists guard ensued that Konrad was no more and the Night Haunter was now and forevermore dominent.

i suspect - and this is only my opinion - that had Konrad still been in control he might not have destroyed Nostramo and possibly been a loyalist, but the Night Haunter personality that had him ruling Nostramo with all the fear that comes with such a name came to the fore. 

he believed he was enacting the imperiums justce and it let him down. Anger and hate fuel adrnelin as much as anything else it was anger that caused him to beat Dorn senseless almost killing him and leaving Dorn - i am not sure wether to say fearful but it seems that way of his brother, be it the madness in his brothers eyes or his own mortality we won't know.

The Lion and Curze came back from a private conversastion, Curze looked pale and was sweating does that mean he had another vision that somehow involved the Lion? becuase the way i see it the Lion fist went to talk with Curze then got into a fight with him.

both primarchs grew up alone to a certain degree until that is the Lion was found by Luther and taken in, but like Angron, Curze had no mentor in life but whereas Angron found the compay of his brothers and sisters in the rings Curze had only the night so it seems only natural in such a harsh and murderous envionment that Nostramo was that a second personality would emerge, one that was more at home with the violence that surrounded Nostamo. 

perhapes if the emp was not so eager to lavish praise on Horus, Sang and Dorn and looked to his tormented son a bit more then maybe the Night Haunter persona would have stayed in check.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

gothik said:


> archetypal red mist descened and Curze knew no more until he came back to his senses on top of Dorn i would say that is goiing psycho. The slaughter of the Phoenixguards and the Fists guard ensued that Konrad was no more and the Night Haunter was now and forevermore dominent.
> 
> i suspect - and this is only my opinion - that had Konrad still been in control he might not have destroyed Nostramo and possibly been a loyalist, but the Night Haunter personality that had him ruling Nostramo with all the fear that comes with such a name came to the fore.
> 
> he believed he was enacting the imperiums justce and it let him down. Anger and hate fuel adrnelin as much as anything else it was anger that caused him to beat Dorn senseless almost killing him and leaving Dorn - i am not sure wether to say fearful but it seems that way of his brother, be it the madness in his brothers eyes or his own mortality we won't know.
> 
> The Lion and Curze came back from a private conversastion, Curze looked pale and was sweating does that mean he had another vision that somehow involved the Lion? becuase the way i see it the Lion fist went to talk with Curze then got into a fight with him.
> 
> both primarchs grew up alone to a certain degree until that is the Lion was found by Luther and taken in, but like Angron, Curze had no mentor in life but whereas Angron found the compay of his brothers and sisters in the rings Curze had only the night so it seems only natural in such a harsh and murderous envionment that Nostramo was that a second personality would emerge, one that was more at home with the violence that surrounded Nostamo.
> 
> perhapes if the emp was not so eager to lavish praise on Horus, Sang and Dorn and looked to his tormented son a bit more then maybe the Night Haunter persona would have stayed in check.


No he literally blacked out and saw visions of the a world dying,a great eye of black and gold watching it burn, spaces marines fighting each other and a golden eagle falling, then he came to and found he was on top of Dorn. He was fully in control of himself albeit a bit messed up in the head as he escaped.

Fulgrim was his mentor, but Fulgrim betrayed him to Dorn.

This is all in my limited edition copy of _The Dark King_ and _The Lightning Tower_


----------



## gothik

i remember that and i recall that fulgrim did indeed betray him to Dorn i did like how the ligtning tower portrayed dorns own nervousness at something


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> No he literally blacked out and saw visions of the a world dying,a great eye of black and gold watching it burn, spaces marines fighting each other and a golden eagle falling, then he came to and found he was on top of Dorn. He was fully in control of himself albeit a bit messed up in the head as he escaped.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all in my limited edition copy of _The Dark King_ and _The Lightning Tower_


No he entered a reverie which happens when you're knee-deep in blood, he didn't go psycho. When Sig called out to him, he broke him out of it.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Why does Curze know more about Dealing with flying enemy's? Where ate you getting this from? In regards to Corax jump pack, I'm faulty sure it says that he used the last if his fuel to jump out of the fight.

And I'm sorry, just because you think Kuze is similar to another character from another race/lore/series does not make Kurze more resilient than any other primarch.

It's getting really annoying with people on here saying all these baseless facts about Kurze.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> No he entered a reverie which happens when you're knee-deep in blood, he didn't go psycho. When Sig called out to him, he broke him out of it.


He had no idea where he was, what he was doing, if he'd remembered attacking Dorn it would of been stated, he questioned as to why they where staring at him in shock -


_"What sight could be so terrible? What could evoke such horror?
He looked down as he realised he squatted atop another, living, breathing figure."_

He then states later -

_"In truth he had little memory of what had occurred after Dorn's storming accusations of insult to the Emperor....the present had faded and the future had seized his mind with agonising visions of a galaxy locked in a cycle of unending war where the alien, the mutant and the rebel arose to feast on the rotting carcass of the Imperium"_

So you see, he blacked out, he went psycho during his premonition of the future.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS

Angel of Blood said:


> No offence but that just sounds like blatant Kurze fanboyism. There's nothing to suggest any of the primarchs couldn't deal with such a blow aswell or that night haunted was any more resilient, in every instance of seeing primarchs fight a hard fight or take serious wounds they have all recovered very very quickly. Kurze is no exception to the rest.


I disagree with this argument entirely. All the Primarch's upbringings have been different in large proportion. Konrad Curze for example was not brought up by his planet's greatest leaders or just caring adoptive fathers. Let alone anyone at all to take care of him. He grew up being fed with the most ruthless and evil traits of human society. Somehow surviving them and then becoming who he is.

Konrad Curze is a creature all on his own. He grew up in the streets as an "Ultra-Jack the Ripper" type person. I just don't see how people can't see how much more this guy had to overcome than other primarchs. He definitely is a tough bastard compared to most and maybe all the primarchs.

ADB is correct that the combat between him and the Lion was a draw. But it is clear that Konrad overcame the Lion and would have killed him if it weren't for one of the Lion's captain stabbing him in the back.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Sanguinius grew up in intensely irradiated wastelands fighting mutants from the moment he arrived. Russ in argueably one of the worst death worlds in the galaxy. Mortarion in the highly poisonous Barbarus under tyannical rule, where the poison at some heights were so bad not even he could cope with it. Angron was raised by slavers, had his mind augemented and experimented on, grew up feeling almost nothing but rage and pain. The Lion grew up alone amongst the beasts of Caliban. Alpharius is completely unknown. They all faced their own trials to turn them into the toughest, meanest beings in the galaxy. Kurze had a shitty upbrining yes, but that shouldn't have made him any more physically tough and able than the others and at the end of the day he was till fighting and killing men. Regular humans, criminals yes, but people all the same. The others were fighting all the fun and games of Baal, Fenris, Nocturne or Caliban which in my opinion would make them much, much, much more resilient and tough in a fight.


----------



## MEQinc

Angel of Blood said:


> They all faced their own trials to turn them into the toughest, meanest beings in the galaxy. Kurze had a shitty upbrining yes, but that shouldn't have made him any more physically tough and able than the others and at the end of the day he was till fighting and killing men.


But that's the thing, they weren't talking about physical toughness but willpower/mental toughness. The will to keep fighting regardless of pain or any other factor. Russ, Lion, Sanguinous they all faced more dangerous foes but they did not face them alone. When(/if) they faltered they had someone to help them, someone to pull them back and aid them. Night Haunter had no one. If he faltered he died. 



> Regular humans, criminals yes, but people all the same. The others were fighting all the fun and games of Baal, Fenris, Nocturne or Caliban which in my opinion would make them much, much, much more resilient and tough in a fight.


Night Haunter conquered a world single-handed. He toppled criminal empires that had lasted for centuries through single-handed slaughter. He, and he alone, transformed Nostromo from a criminal haven and industrial hell-hole to a wretched but industrious hive. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Why does Curze know more about Dealing with flying enemy's? Where ate you getting this from?


Perhaps because his legion made heavy use of (and possibly invented) jump-pack equipped troops? The Night Lords have a noted predilection for Raptors (a term coined by 1st Captain Sahaal during the Heresy), I think it is safe to say that Night Haunter would have had a better understanding of this type of fight than most. 



> It's getting really annoying with people on here saying all these baseless facts about Kurze.


Night Haunter is shown in _Savage Weapons_ to be able to survive being stabbed twice (stomach and spine), choked and still give the Lion (noted to be a very skilled swordsmen) a run for his money. Indeed he is shown to have gain the upper-hand, fractured the Lions composure and dealt out wounds that a Dark Angel is surprised where not fatal (a bashed open skull and a near-slit throat). He is also shown to have absolutely pasted Dorn who is generally held as a pretty tough Primarch, admittedly he got the jump on Dorn but that is still a lot of damage dealt out very quickly. Then there is the fact that the Lion feels it is necessary to gravely injure Night Haunter before dueling him and Corax's refusal to fight him. Clearly both Lion and Corax (known to be highly analytical Primarchs) felt that fighting Night Haunter in HtH was at best a risky proposition. 

So all in all. Curze was badass and his brothers knew it. Founded enough for ya?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

TRU3 CHAOS and MEQinc, good posts. Answered everything while I was gone .


----------



## Angel of Blood

Well they were really, Malus guaranteed almost ever other primarch would stay down after being stabbed by The Lion, that would suggest an immense amount of physical toughness, something I'm fairly certain all the primarchs could keep going from. Kurze is no exception.

The Lion was certainly on his own to begin with, he fought the beasts of Caliban alone, something far worse than Kurze I would say. His conquering of Nostromo is impressive and hardening, but I still think others upbringings were just as bad.

Sorry but give me the quote that states the Night Lords used more jump pack equipped troops than normal. And they possibly invented them?! Seriously give me a source for that, I refuse to belive anyone invented them and if anyone dud it would no doubt have been Corax, not Kurze.

And no Kurze held his own after being stabbed once, after Corswain stabbed him the fight was over and it doesnt just say The Lion was a mess after the fight, it says both, which means the Lion still pasted Kurze aswell when on the ground. 

I think the Lion would have sucker punched any Primarch if he could, not just because it was Kurze. On a similar note, again I belive Corax would have withdrawn no matter which Primarch joined to save Lorgar. 

So no, I don't think Kurze as any more badass than the others.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> Well they were really, Malus guaranteed almost ever other primarch would stay down after being stabbed by The Lion, that would suggest an immense amount of physical toughness, something I'm fairly certain all the primarchs could keep going from. Kurze is no exception.


No I did not say that. I said that most would not have the will/hatred-inspired strength to rise with the exception of a few Primarchs like Angron, Mortarion, etc.



Angel of Blood said:


> The Lion was certainly on his own to begin with, he fought the beasts of Caliban alone, something far worse than Kurze I would say. His conquering of Nostromo is impressive and hardening, but I still think others upbringings were just as bad.


He was alone but then he was reunited with the colonists. Curze had no such luxury his entire life even after the Emperor found him.

Also I'm quite certain he used to hide from the beasts, choosing to evade their presence rather than deal with them because he knew they were not normal creatures of the jungle.

He is the only Primarch never to have made a friend or bonded with another human being (not including Alpharius, he is unknown) so I hardly see how the upbringing of others was nearly as harsh mentally.



Angel of Blood said:


> Sorry but give me the quote that states the Night Lords used more jump pack equipped troops than normal. And they possibly invented them?! Seriously give me a source for that, I refuse to belive anyone invented them and if anyone dud it would no doubt have been Corax, not Kurze.


No one said anything about the NL inventing jetpacks but seeing as how the NL have squads dedicated to using jetpacks, it seems obvious Curze and his legion know what their doing up in the sky.

I'm not dismissing the RG's skill with using jet-packs but I'm not excluding the NL either.



Angel of Blood said:


> And no Kurze held his own after being stabbed once, after Corswain stabbed him the fight was over and it doesnt just say The Lion was a mess after the fight, it says both, which means the Lion still pasted Kurze aswell when on the ground.


? Curze was strangling the Lion who was without a doubt going to die until the intervention of one of his men. Both Primarchs were in a mess by that point but as I've stated repeatedly, Curze survives through sheer will alone.



Angel of Blood said:


> So no, I don't think Kurze as any more badass than the others.


No one is saying he is more bad-ass, rather he is the most hardened of them all mentally.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

To my knowledge Talos hates Raptor's as does other Night Lords they only use them because they are useful. It's my belief everyone thinks Night Lords love assault troops/raptors because they featured heavily in several battle reports, other than that there's no actual proof.

I'd like to also point out that the following may be a spoiler to some but in _Promethean Sun_ 

Vulkan directly referneces only Sanguinius and Corax when questioning whether they felt the same when flying through the air.


Not absolute proof but it's a good indication.


----------



## MEQinc

Words_of_Truth said:


> To my knowledge Talos hates Raptor's as does other Night Lords they only use them because they are useful.


My personal understanding was that Talos hated the Bleeding Eyes more for their physical/mental deviancy than for there being raptors. Quite understandable really giving their physical deformities and the frankly maddening way some of them talk. 



> I'd like to also point out that the following may be a spoiler to some but in _Promethean Sun_
> 
> Vulkan directly referneces only Sanguinius and Corax when questioning whether they felt the same when flying through the air.
> 
> 
> Not absolute proof but it's a good indication.


I`d say that`s because only Corax (jump-pack) and Sanguinius (wings) actually fly. No one was suggesting that Night Haunter could fly, simply that he would be better versed than others in dealing with a flying foe.



Angel of Blood said:


> Well they were really, Malus guaranteed almost ever other primarch would stay down after being stabbed by The Lion, that would suggest an immense amount of physical toughness, something I'm fairly certain all the primarchs could keep going from. Kurze is no exception.


I personally understood Malus to be suggesting that Night Haunter was (or would be) capable of driving himself beyond his actual physical toughness through mental resilience. Willpower and actual physical power can achieve much the same thing after all. 



> The Lion was certainly on his own to begin with, he fought the beasts of Caliban alone, something far worse than Kurze I would say.


Lion was found by Luthor as a child. Given the impressive rates at which Primarchs grow it`s possible that the Lion spent no more than a month or two in the woods by himself. Further there is nothing to suggest that he had to fight monster during this time. Indeed it is equally possible that he fled the entire time. Two months of fleeing through the wilderness of an admitted death-world is not even close to a life-time spent conquering a death-world single handed (just because Nostromo has cities instead of forests doesn`t mean it isn`t just as dangerous a place to live, just for different reasons). 



> Sorry but give me the quote that states the Night Lords used more jump pack equipped troops than normal.


3.5 Ed C:CSM page 42 "Night lord forces make extensive use of Raptors."



> And they possibly invented them?! Seriously give me a source for that,


That was pure speculation on my part, hence the use of the word 'possibly', based on the fact that Night Lords make extensive use of Raptors (see above) and that according to _Lord of the Night_ the term 'Raptor' comes from Zso Sahaal and the Night Lords 1st company. Again, simple guess work, no need to fly (get it) off the handle. 



> And no Kurze held his own after being stabbed once, after Corswain stabbed him the fight was over and it doesnt just say The Lion was a mess after the fight, it says both, which means the Lion still pasted Kurze aswell when on the ground.


Actually after Corswain`s intervention the fight continues (on their feet again) for several minutes at least, until the two are dragged forcibly apart. So Night Haunter clearly managed to deal with the second stab (in the *spine*) well enough to keep fighting. 

Further, I never said that Lion was the only one to get hurt. My point was that even with *two* cheap shots Night Haunter still held his own against one of the finest swordsmen of the Primarchs.



> I think the Lion would have sucker punched any Primarch if he could, not just because it was Kurze.


Huh. We clearly have very different impressions of Lion. I understood the scene to imply that Lion felt bad about having to cheat like that and thus that it was not something he would generally have done. Why apologize for something that you feel no shame in?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

He sucker punched Russ as well  looks like he has a habit of doing it heh.


----------



## Warlock in Training

As Guile from Street Fighter said to Ken as he kicked his ass, "This is a Street Fight, If you are fighting fair then you aint winning!"


----------



## Angel of Blood

Malus Darkblade said:


> No I did not say that. I said that most would not have the will/hatred-inspired strength to rise with the exception of a few Primarchs like Angron, Mortarion, etc.


Well you hardly made it clear. I still completely disagree. Almost all the primarchs bar perhaps Lorgar would have also stayed up imo, you seem to think that his hate and pain give him the most complete strength, this is pure conjecture on your part. I would argue that Angrons, Ferrus or Dorns rage would keep them up, the Wolf in Russ or the Lion within Jonson, Sanguinius conviction, Guillimans stoicism, Logars passion and faith are all a completely different type of strenght, but all just as potent and tough in their own ways and keep them on their feet after such a blow.



Malus Darkblade said:


> He was alone but then he was reunited with the colonists. Curze had no such luxury his entire life even after the Emperor found him.
> 
> Also I'm quite certain he used to hide from the beasts, choosing to evade their presence rather than deal with them because he knew they were not normal creatures of the jungle.


Why are you so certain? nothing ever indicated that he ran away, nothing. The Lion may have been found, but its made apparent time and time again that the Lion never truely connected with people, keeping anyone at an arms distance, even Luther. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> He is the only Primarch never to have made a friend or bonded with another human being (not including Alpharius, he is unknown) so I hardly see how the upbringing of others was nearly as harsh mentally.


Perhaps, but i still dont see how not making friends automatically makes him super-tough or more tough than the others. I would argue that Mortarion never really had any friends either, no source of him ever seems to show im show any signs of friendship with others. Again i've already said above each Primarch drew their strengths from different sources, none of which really trump the others. I would also argue Angrons upbrinhing was just as tough mentally btw, he literally had his brain altered and mentality screwed with.



Malus Darkblade said:


> No one said anything about the NL inventing jetpacks


Wrong



MEQinc said:


> Perhaps because his legion made heavy use of (and possibly invented) jump-pack equipped troops?


Right there. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> but seeing as how the NL have squads dedicated to using jetpacks, it seems obvious Curze and his legion know what their doing up in the sky.


Horus had dedicated jump pack troops, Kalus Ekkadon with the Catulan Reavers, and Luc Sedirae is noted as using a jump pack often. In the Word Bearers both Sor Talgron and members of Argel Tals company are shown to be dedicated to jump troops. The Blood Angels make heavy use of jump packs also. As so so many, many other legions. Shall we say they are all specialists at dealing with air assaults aswell? 



Malus Darkblade said:


> ? Curze was strangling the Lion who was without a doubt going to die until the intervention of one of his men. Both Primarchs were in a mess by that point but as I've stated repeatedly, Curze survives through sheer will alone.


I wouldn't say without a doubt, who knows what could or would have happened before Corswain stepped in. After Ka'Bhanda threw down Sanguinius pretty much anyone would say he was going to die without a doubt, but would you know he managed to once again turn the odds and defeat the deamon. So Kurze that alone saved Kurze? What kept Lorgar going after being nearly evicerated, Manus and Fulgrim after a sword exploded in their faces, Sanguinius after a uber-bloodthrister pile drived him into the ground, Magnus after Russ destroyed his remaining eye and broke his back or on Astartes levels after Loken/Demeter had entire buildings fall upon them yet kept going, Santar was eviscerated by Kaeseron etc etc etc. Many others have survived just as bad and in some cases i would say even worse injuries than Kurze, so i really don't see how he's anything special in that department.



Malus Darkblade said:


> No one is saying he is more bad-ass, rather he is the most hardened of them all mentally.


Again thats a matter of opinion. Hardened mentally to me would indicate sanity to a degree. I would say mentally Kurze was broken.



MEQinc said:


> I`d say that`s because only Corax (jump-pack) and Sanguinius (wings) actually fly. No one was suggesting that Night Haunter could fly, simply that he would be better versed than others in dealing with a flying foe.


See above for my view on why Kurze shouldn't really be any more well versed than Horus, Logar, Sanguinius, Corax etc.




MEQinc said:


> I personally understood Malus to be suggesting that Night Haunter was (or would be) capable of driving himself beyond his actual physical toughness through mental resilience. Willpower and actual physical power can achieve much the same thing after all.


Far enough, but again as i pointed out above, others have survived much worse injuries and kept going.




MEQinc said:


> Lion was found by Luthor as a child. Given the impressive rates at which Primarchs grow it`s possible that the Lion spent no more than a month or two in the woods by himself. Further there is nothing to suggest that he had to fight monster during this time. Indeed it is equally possible that he fled the entire time. Two months of fleeing through the wilderness of an admitted death-world is not even close to a life-time spent conquering a death-world single handed (just because Nostromo has cities instead of forests doesn`t mean it isn`t just as dangerous a place to live, just for different reasons).


Fair enough, will concede that to a degree. We still don't know if he fled or fought, either way its still one of the worse ways to start your life and clearly it affected Jonson throughout his life and shaped him.



MEQinc said:


> 3.5 Ed C:CSM page 42 "Night lord forces make extensive use of Raptors."


I don't personally see this as a good indication of how the Night Lords operated pre-heresy, in 10,000 years many of the legions, espcially the traitors have all changed their operating methods, some to a huge degree.




MEQinc said:


> That was pure speculation on my part, hence the use of the word 'possibly', based on the fact that Night Lords make extensive use of Raptors (see above) and that according to Lord of the Night the term 'Raptor' comes from Zso Sahaal and the Night Lords 1st company. Again, simple guess work, no need to fly (get it) off the handle.


Surely it would make more sense for Corax or Sanguinius if any to have 'invented' jump pack troopers. Both espcially the Raven Guard are clearly noted to favour jump packs more than any others in pre-heresy aswell as post. And coining the turn for Raptors isn't really all that valid seeing as its mainly a 40k and traitor term and that Raptors aren't exactly the same as Assault Marines.




MEQinc said:


> Actually after Corswain`s intervention the fight continues (on their feet again) for several minutes at least, until the two are dragged forcibly apart. So Night Haunter clearly managed to deal with the second stab (in the spine) well enough to keep fighting.
> 
> Further, I never said that Lion was the only one to get hurt. My point was that even with two cheap shots Night Haunter still held his own against one of the finest swordsmen of the Primarchs.


And the Lion managed to carry on with most of his skull missing, which to me is alot more serious than two stab wounds, something we know Primarchs can heal from at a absurdly fast rate. Missing skull? Not so much.




MEQinc said:


> Huh. We clearly have very different impressions of Lion. I understood the scene to imply that Lion felt bad about having to cheat like that and thus that it was not something he would generally have done. Why apologize for something that you feel no shame in?


No doubt he felt bad about it or dishonorable, but i still think he would do it to anyone. I also took the apology to also signifiy the true and final end of their brotherhood(no matter how shitty the relationship might have been).


For the record i really like Kurze, but i like him for what he stands for, for the fact that he was willing to do whatever the Emperor asked him, but lost his way towards the end and was then turned on perhaps a bit too rashly. I just don't like the rampant claims that appear everywhere about him which are mostly completely baseless, pure speculation and conjecture


----------



## MEQinc

Words_of_Truth said:


> He sucker punched Russ as well  looks like he has a habit of doing it heh.


I wouldn`t really classify the blow against Russ as a sucker punch, at least not in the same way as the Night Haunter hit. Russ and Lion were fighting, the fact that Russ chose to stop doesn`t mean the Lion had to stop so his blow (ending the fight right there) was perfectly valid. On the other hand he and Curze were talking and then *bam* sword to the stomach. Cheap shot.



Angel of Blood said:


> Hardened mentally to me would indicate sanity to a degree. I would say mentally Kurze was broken.


It is worth noting however that `crazy` people are often noted to be more resilient to pain than `sane` people, due largely to the fact that they simply don`t register the stimulus properly. 



> I don't personally see this as a good indication of how the Night Lords operated pre-heresy, in 10,000 years many of the legions, espcially the traitors have all changed their operating methods, some to a huge degree.


1) The Night Lords have altered their tactical doctrine very little since the Heresy.
2) We are only presented with fluff for the Night Lords post-heresy except for a couple flashbacks and _Savage Weapons_ none of which deal with battle-field tactics.
3) There is no real reason to suspect that the Night Lords would suddenly adopt the use of these specialist troops en mass post Heresy.
4) Zso Sahaal was 1st Captain and a raptor. This suggests that raptors had a heavy presence in the 1st Company (as companies often reflect their captain) pre-Heresy.
5) You asked me to provide a source stating that the Night Lords make heavy use of raptors. I did so in the most blunt manner possible. 



> Both espcially the Raven Guard are clearly noted to favour jump packs more than any others in pre-heresy aswell as post.


I will now return the favour and ask you to cite sources for this.



> And coining the turn for Raptors isn't really all that valid seeing as its mainly a 40k and traitor term and that Raptors aren't exactly the same as Assault Marines.


A Raptor as it exists in 40k is some what different to an Assault Marine however it is also wildly different from what a Raptor was pre-Heresy when they were effectively just assault marines.



> I just don't like the rampant claims that appear everywhere about him which are mostly completely baseless, pure speculation and conjecture


As opposed to all the completely rational, factual facts being thrown around about other Primarchs :grin:.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Russ was laughing at the fact they had been fighting, the Lion's sense of humour is obviously a lot more subtle than Russ's and he smacked him. I believe the Adeptus Astartes article talks about Corax and the Raven Guard using a lot of Assault troops to perform their hit and run attacks, which they did prior to their massacre at Istvaan. Corax is also the only Primarch we know for certain uses a Jump Pack for general combat purposes.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> Well you hardly made it clear. I still completely disagree. Almost all the primarchs bar perhaps Lorgar would have also stayed up imo, you seem to think that his hate and pain give him the most complete strength, this is pure conjecture on your part. I would argue that Angrons, Ferrus or Dorns rage would keep them up, the Wolf in Russ or the Lion within Jonson, Sanguinius conviction, Guillimans stoicism, Logars passion and faith are all a completely different type of strenght, but all just as potent and tough in their own ways and keep them on their feet after such a blow.


There's a difference between anger and hatred. Angron/Lorgar/Ferrus/Dorn are Primarchs with anger issues in some shape or form.

Angron is furious with the Emperor for what he did to his gladiator buddies.

Lorgar hates the Emperor for 'betraying' him.

Ferrus/Dorn are just angry in the general sense, they don't have a particular reason like the other Primarchs I mentioned.

Curze dosen't succumb to something as petty as anger, rather he utterly hates the Emperor and everything else he has fought for in the past. 

He's a darkened soul, he despises and hates, he doesn't get enraged in the normal sense.



Angel of Blood said:


> Why are you so certain? nothing ever indicated that he ran away, nothing. The Lion may have been found, but its made apparent time and time again that the Lion never truely connected with people, keeping anyone at an arms distance, even Luther.


Pretty sure it was mentioned in Gav Thorpe's horrible Dark Angel novels, don't make me go back into it to confirm this 



Angel of Blood said:


> Perhaps, but i still dont see how not making friends automatically makes him super-tough or more tough than the others. I would argue that Mortarion never really had any friends either, no source of him ever seems to show im show any signs of friendship with others. Again i've already said above each Primarch drew their strengths from different sources, none of which really trump the others. I would also argue Angrons upbrinhing was just as tough mentally btw, he literally had his brain altered and mentality screwed with.


As others have stated, there is a difference between physical and mental strength.

If Curze wasn't so bitter and filled with venom much like his Dark-Elf counterpart, then he wouldn't get away with all the physical feats he has performed.

Mortarion had a father figure before the Emperor slayed him and prior to that, befriended a group of colonists for who knows how many years.

Angron also had a group of gladiator buddies whom he apparently grew very attached with, so much that they were the reason am ongst other lesser factors to why he betrayed the Emperor.



Angel of Blood said:


> I wouldn't say without a doubt, who knows what could or would have happened before Corswain stepped in.


The Lion would have died due to asphyxia.



Angel of Blood said:


> After Ka'Bhanda threw down Sanguinius pretty much anyone would say he was going to die without a doubt, but would you know he managed to once again turn the odds and defeat the deamon.


All KB did to Sanguinius was shatter his legs.



Angel of Blood said:


> So Kurze that alone saved Kurze?


His defiance, yes.



Angel of Blood said:


> What kept Lorgar going after being nearly evicerated


Perhaps the damage wasn't as severe or you can attribute his healing due to his physiology or his newfound affiliation with the chaos powers.

Also he had a longterm goal which in turn inspired him to fight Corax despite the protests of his underlings and in part encouraged him to fight on. Though I wouldn't say his will to survive/defy his enemies was nearly as potent as Curze.



Angel of Blood said:


> Manus and Fulgrim after a sword exploded in their faces


Not really life-threatening to a Primarch to be honest.



Angel of Blood said:


> Sanguinius after a uber-bloodthrister pile drived him into the ground


He just had his legs broken. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Magnus after Russ destroyed his remaining eye and broke his back


He lost an eye and had a bone shattered, nothing huge especially to a Primarch, especially one so attuned with the warp.



Angel of Blood said:


> or on Astartes levels after Loken/Demeter had entire buildings fall upon them yet kept going


There are many real life examples of people being inside buildings that collapsed due to earthquakes, etc. and come out alive. It's not something that boggles the mind.



Angel of Blood said:


> Santar was eviscerated by Kaeseron etc etc etc.


Not sure who Santar is nor have I read up on the encounter. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Many others have survived just as bad and in some cases i would say even worse injuries than Kurze, so i really don't see how he's anything special in that department.


Curze was impaled multiple times amongst other things and had a gigantic sword lodged into his spine. Maybe I am a fanboy but I'd wager his injuries were a lot more severe than the other Primarchs you mentioned. 

Plus he got up moments later only to be pulled back by his men while Lorgar had to be saved by Curze, giving him time to recover and he couldn't stand up without using Curze as support nor was he physically able to fight again given how weak he appeared afterwards.



Angel of Blood said:


> Again thats a matter of opinion. Hardened mentally to me would indicate sanity to a degree. I would say mentally Kurze was broken.


What scenario are you referring to?



Angel of Blood said:


> And the Lion managed to carry on with most of his skull missing, which to me is alot more serious than two stab wounds, something we know Primarchs can heal from at a absurdly fast rate. Missing skull? Not so much.


There are tons of regular SM with half mechanical heads. The head doesn't seem to be as vital to one's survival apparently.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MEQinc said:


> 3) There is no real reason to suspect that the Night Lords would suddenly adopt the use of these specialist troops en mass post Heresy.


They don't. Countering the one quote you've supplied are several that explain how rare Raptors were in every Legion, and that although the Night Lords use them more, they're still rare in the Eighth Legion, as well.



MEQinc said:


> 4) Zso Sahaal was 1st Captain and a raptor.


Not exactly. Sevatar was First Captain during the Great Crusade and the Heresy: the Night Lords' formative years. And Lord of the Night is an old book, suffering from changing canon. Like you mentioned, Raptors aren't just Assault Marines who act a bit scary. They're Chaos-warped warriors in arrogant terror cults. It's a complex situation.



MEQinc said:


> This suggests that raptors had a heavy presence in the 1st Company (as companies often reflect their captain) pre-Heresy.


The Night Lords' First Company at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy was the Atramentar, and consisted mostly of Terminator squads.


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> I wouldn't say without a doubt, who knows what could or would have happened before Corswain stepped in.


Woah, are you serious? Talk about wanting to see things which aren't there. And you accuse others of fanboyism? 

Quote: _"[...] but the Night Lord's advantage was crystal clear."_ 

And that was _before_ he shook his brother's head against the rocky ground _"[...] again, and again and again."_

I would say that (as it turned out) the Lion had about as much chance surviving his encounter with Curze unaided as Lorgar had surviving his encounter with Corax unaided. 


To be honest, I don't really see why people get so upset about Curze's fighting prowess? 

I mean, should the Lion be both a better swordsman, be a better strategist and tactician, be more majestic/handsome/graceful, be more honorable, have greater character, have a more devoted Legion (discounting Astelan & Co.) AND be a better fighter? 

Not to mention the one thing that seems to grieve Curze the most; despite his chaos taint, the Lion never wavered. He stayed true to his purpose, whereas Curze did not (which seems to haunt poor Konrad). 

Wow, I guess some guys just have it all, don't they? 


Cheers


----------



## Malus Darkblade

@nopain: "I mean, should the Lion be both a better swordsman, be a better strategist and tactician, be more majestic/handsome/graceful, be more honorable, have greater character, have a more devoted Legion (discounting Astelan & Co.) AND be a better fighter? "

lol so true.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I would say yeah, there's always a chance the Lion might've saved himself, who knows, but that chance looked _very_ slim 

I would say Lion's best chance of winning that fight were 
1) instead of stabbing Curze in the stomach, he should've just killed him outright with his surprise attack...if you're gonna fight dirty you might as well kill your enemy
and 2) not taking Curze lightly while exchanging blows in the beginning 
but he blew all his advantages and ended up being choked out like a bi tch and probably only survived because one of his marines stepped in


----------



## harlokin

Nonsense. The Lion's flaws are well known, his lack of charisma, his inability to display emotion, or trust, and the fact that his own Legion mistrusted him. 

There is more than a "chance that the Lion might've saved himself", and the situation you describe is erroneous. 

The fight was ended at a point when Curze held the advantage, if someone ahd intervened a few minutes earlier it would have looked entirely differently, and if the fight had gone on the advantage could have shifted the Lion's way again. 

ADB stated that the fight was a draw, not that the Lion was saved due to the intervention of one of his legion.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> ... and ended up being choked out like a bi tch and probably only survived because one of his marines stepped in


You guys can take things so literally sometimes, and indulge in the craziest flights of fancy elsewhere.

Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.

The Lion won a little bit.
Then Curze won a little bit.
A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away.
It ends as a draw several minutes later.

Anyone saying it was a definite thing is miles out of whack. It was specifically a draw at the start of their war. In fact, all we know about the two primarchs meeting up again in the rest of the Heresy is that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat and Curze gets a serious scar from it (mentioned in _Blood Reaver_).


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> You guys can take things so literally sometimes, and indulge in the craziest flights of fancy elsewhere.
> 
> Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.
> 
> The Lion won a little bit.
> Then Curze won a little bit.
> A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away.
> It ends as a draw several minutes later.
> 
> Anyone saying it was a definite thing is miles out of whack. It was specifically a draw at the start of their war. In fact, all we know about the two primarchs meeting up again in the rest of the Heresy is that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat and Curze gets a serious scar from it (mentioned in _Blood Reaver_).


I was wondering, several readers (including myself) compared the fight to something more akin to a scrap between brothers, especially at the end when they are being held back and are shouting at each other. Is this how you wished to portray their feud or was it meant to be taken as a literal fight similar to Ferrus and Fulgrim or Corax and Lorgar?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> I was wondering, several readers (including myself) compared to the fight to something more akin to a scrap between brothers, especially at the end when they are being held back and are shouting at each other. Is this how you wished to portray their feud...


Bingo.

I thought it was an interesting dynamic, and sets up the real duel between them to come.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> You guys can take things so literally sometimes, and indulge in the craziest flights of fancy elsewhere.
> 
> Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.
> 
> The Lion won a little bit.
> Then Curze won a little bit.
> A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away.
> It ends as a draw several minutes later.
> 
> Anyone saying it was a definite thing is miles out of whack. It was specifically a draw at the start of their war. In fact, all we know about the two primarchs meeting up again in the rest of the Heresy is that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat and Curze gets a serious scar from it (mentioned in Blood Reaver).


I really liked your story (best story of the lot IMO) and I'm actually a Lion fan 

but IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, given the way the fight was described, it appeared to me that the Lion clearly lost and would have died had it not been for Corswain's intervention 

I say this because you wrote "[Corswain] _could focus on nothing but the Lion lying in the dirt, his slack neck in a heretic’s grip_"
whereas earlier Curze was at a disadvantage, "_slack_ neck" implies to me that the Lion was unconscious and truly at the mercy of Curze
and after Corswain intervened it took the Lion quite a while to get back into the fight 

I don't think I'm indulging in wishful thinking because I don't wish that Curze dominated the Lion, I would rather it was the other way around because I'm actually biased in favour of the Lion


----------



## Phoebus

All I can say in response to that is:

Curze was stabbed through the spine. And was OK afterwards. With that context in mind, some choking and a few bashings of the cranium against the ground will probably not kill a Primarch.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Bingo


"THATS A BINGO!"

.... Inglorious Bastards? Anyone?

I think with older cannon, especially in terms of the game, I think it was GW's intent to make the Night Lords a legion built on raptors. But I have no proof except for the fluff in Chaos 3rd Edition Codex.

So I can see where people think that way.

I think the fluff on Raptors is messed up. I just don't see how jump infantry would just make themselves a cult all together. How about terminators? I don't know, but you'd think raptors would have created a bond with their legion way before being taken into the ranks of the raptors. And even then, I'm sure they were led by captains and other legions leaders. 

The only way I could see such a split from a legion is if a whole company (in a legion sense _1000)_ operated away from the rest of the legion. But thats pretty extreme as they only appear to be squad strong.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> "THATS A BINGO!"
> 
> .... Inglorious Bastards? Anyone?
> 
> I think with older cannon, especially in terms of the game, I think it was GW's intent to make the Night Lords a legion built on Night Lords. But I have no proof except for the fluff in Chaos 3rd Edition Codex.
> 
> So I can see where people think that way.
> 
> I think the fluff on Raptors is messed up. I just don't see how jump infantry would just make themselves a cult all together. How about terminators? I don't know, but you'd think raptors would have created a bond with their legion way before being taken into the ranks of the raptors. And even then, I'm sure they were led by captains and other legions leaders.
> 
> The only way I could see such a split from a legion is if a whole company (in a legion sense _1000)_ operated away from the rest of the legion. But thats pretty extreme as they only appear to be squad strong.


Similar to the way obliterators split, they become so focused on something they got out of their way to excel in it, though I don't like the whole flying dog like thing they got going on.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Phoebus said:


> All I can say in response to that is:
> 
> Curze was stabbed through the spine. And was OK afterwards. With that context in mind, some choking and a few bashings of the cranium against the ground will probably not kill a Primarch.


yes, but why was the Lion's neck "slack" then? 
"slack" sounds like the Lion had gone limp...just pointing it out


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS

Words_of_Truth said:


> Similar to the way obliterators split, they become so focused on something they got out of their way to excel in it, though I don't like the whole flying dog like thing they got going on.


I see where your coming from. But even then, Obliterators can get away with that as they can be explained as being in a position in a legion where they have authority and power to sort of be on their own and explore. Raptors however are a different story. 

There must be a seperation from the legion somewhere. I assume that due to their use of kind of being shock unit they spent a lot of time away from their legion. But it must have been A LOT. They aren't the only units that have spent a lot of time away from their legion.


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



harlokin said:


> Nonsense. The Lion's flaws are well known, his lack of charisma, his inability to display emotion, or trust, and the fact that his own Legion mistrusted him.


Are you disputing the characteristics I mentioned? If not, then I don't see your point. 

I guess you're next gonna tell me that Curze is more charismatic than the Lion and that Curze had great control of his Legion...



harlokin said:


> There is more than a "chance that the Lion might've saved himself", and the situation you describe is erroneous.


Wow, it must be amazing to be able to read your own imaginary view of things instead of what's really printed. 

All reading takes an ounce of interpretation (some more than an ounce), but to say, like you do, that there is _"more than a chance that the Lion might've saved himself"_ takes either:
A) an incredibly subjective interpretation, firmly grounded in serious fanboyism or
B) very poor reading skills and/or memory

And please tell me _how_ my statement was erraneous. These _"" _little quotation marks means that I'm quoting text passages from the book. It does not mean that I want to emphasize something I make up (or whatever you believe they're there for). 



harlokin said:


> The fight was ended at a point when Curze held the advantage, if someone ahd intervened a few minutes earlier it would have looked entirely differently, and if the fight had gone on the advantage could have shifted the Lion's way again.


And if the Lion had tripped, and if Curze had used a sword, and if...

First, it's simply pointless discussing hypothetical situations, so just don't.

Second, your first statement is simply wrong. When the fight was ended Curze did not hold an advantage. It's pretty clear that both combatants were equally spent.

Third, your last statement is again just wrong. I guess in your mind the Lion was chilling on the ground all the while he got his head smashed to pieces. I mean, getting up too soon would not be sporting towards poor Konrad. He's bad enough as it is, he needs the handicap. 

I guess the Lion got really annoyed that Corswain ruined his well-planned and very dramatic come-back... 



harlokin said:


> ADB stated that the fight was a draw, not that the Lion was saved due to the intervention of one of his legion.


The one does not exclude the other. Has anyone here disputed the outcome of the fight? As I pointed out above, it's quite clear the fight ended in a draw. 

Cheers


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The author has explained why it was a draw in this very thread. I don't think that issue needs any more explanation.


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> You guys can take things so literally sometimes, and indulge in the craziest flights of fancy elsewhere.
> 
> Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.
> 
> The Lion won a little bit.
> Then Curze won a little bit.
> A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away.
> It ends as a draw several minutes later.
> 
> Anyone saying it was a definite thing is miles out of whack. It was specifically a draw at the start of their war. In fact, all we know about the two primarchs meeting up again in the rest of the Heresy is that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat and Curze gets a serious scar from it (mentioned in _Blood Reaver_).


I'll probably get crucified for this but...:grin: If your intention was to portray a very even fight, I think you did a suboptimal job. Don't get me wrong, IMO your story was easiest the best in the whole book, but come on; the Lion had all the advantages here.

I concede that it's probably more in Legion character for a Dark Angel Astartes to save his Primarch than a Nightlord Astartes, but why not have an orbital bombardment save Curze from the Lion (or something like that)? 

I absolutely loved the sucker-punch by the Lion, but wouldn't Curze have been just as likely to administer one? Why give the advantage to the Lion if this particular fight was going to be so even (knowing you were gonna write about them both going down in the dust later)?

My point is that the words you used, like _"crystal clear advantage"_, _"slack neck"_ etc. makes it really hard to interpret the actual process as flowing back and forth. In my view, it was pretty clear that the Lion had the advantage at first, and that Curze had it later, only even more so.

Yes, you make the fiction, so you can write that the Lion will wipe the floor with Curze next time they meet, but that's besides the point. As much as you write the fiction you can't take back what you have written and if you indeed wanted the fight to seem 100% even, I believe you could have used other formulations. I can't really see much of your story discrediting Curze. You mention he is a worse swordsman, but then goes on to say that he still avoids death thanks to his speed. 

I only comment on what is written. I couldn't possibly say that based on one single fight Curze is clearly going to win the next scrap as well. That's like saying that because Barcelona beat United in the last game Barcelona is very likely gonna win their next meeting (and that match was way more one-sided than this fight ). 

Anyways, my intention was not to criticize your writing, which IMO is superb. I simply wanted to point out why it was obvious to me how the chain of events described made Curze seem like an immensely strong fighter, who on this particular day, seemed stronger than the Lion. Was the fight as one-sided as the Corax vs Lorgar fight? Not at all in my opinion. Was the outcome, _the way it turned out_, as likely? IMO yes. Did the fight end in draw? Obviously. Will Curze beat the Lion next time they meet? I have no idea...:grin:

Cheers

P.S. Btway, thanks for very good fiction. Plz keep 'em coming. D.S.


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> All I can say in response to that is:
> 
> Curze was stabbed through the spine. And was OK afterwards. With that context in mind, some choking and a few bashings of the cranium against the ground will probably not kill a Primarch.


Yup, and I'm pretty certain that Lorgar had Corax all fooled about his weakness too. A shame Curze showed up and ruined Lorgar's plan to do a "Mel Gibson-Patriot-move" (for those of you who have seen _the Patriot_ :grin on Corax...

Cheers


----------



## harlokin

no pain no gain said:


> Wow, it must be amazing to be able to read your own imaginary view of things instead of what's really printed.
> 
> Cheers


ADB (you know, the talented chap who penned the story) has stated that he wrote the fight as a draw. 

His quote below:

_*"Curze doesn't best the Lion. It's a fight like most fights between equals; it ebbs and flows, with the advantage exchanging between each participant."*_

That is the author's view of what he wrote, anything else is your own imaginary view of things instead of what's really printed.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

no pain no gain said:


> Yup, and I'm pretty certain that Lorgar had Corax all fooled about his weakness too. A shame Curze showed up and ruined Lorgar's plan to do a "Mel Gibson-Patriot-move" (for those of you who have seen _the Patriot_ :grin on Corax...
> 
> Cheers


There's a difference though, that being we where in the head of Lorgar and Lorgar thought himself to be the weakest of the primarch in combat, in fact he was surprised Corax was so aggressive since to Lorgar he'd always seemed (dunno what the word was he used so I'll go with..) shy?

In the fight between the Lion and Night Haunter it was don't from a third person view so who knows what either was thinking, but it's fairly clear Lorgar on the other hand thought he was going to die.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> The author has explained why it was a draw in this very thread. I don't think that issue needs any more explanation.


thing is, the author's explanation doesn't jive with the words he actually wrote 
it doesn't matter what the author was thinking in his mind, it's what the author actually wrote down on paper, and this is coming from a Lion/Dark Angels fan

"the Lion's *slack* neck in a heretic's grip"...that doesn't sound like a momentary disadvantage
if ADB had simply written "the Lion's neck in a heretic's grip", then I could believe his claim that the Lion was simply at a momentary disadvantage, but "slack" neck means his neck was hanging loosely, i.e. he had been choked out


----------



## Words_of_Truth

MontytheMighty said:


> thing is, the author's explanation doesn't jive with the words he actually wrote
> 
> "the Lion's slack neck in a heretic's grip"...that doesn't sound like a momentary disadvantage
> if ADB had simply written "the Lion's neck in a heretic's grip", then I could believe his claim that the Lion was simply at a momentary disadvantage, but "slack" neck means his neck was hanging loosely, i.e. he had been choked out


Either way, whether he worded it poorly or not he's still stated his actual intention.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> Either way, whether he worded it poorly or not he's still stated his actual intention.


no doubt about that, I ain't questioning his intention, but from what he wrote we know that:

1) the Lion's neck was "slack" while he was being choked

and 

2) *while Curze was struggling to dislodge Corwain, the Lion didn't do anything*...*why didn't the Lion immediately capitalize on the distraction?* 
The obvious answer to me is that the Lion was still recovering from being choked out...

I just don't think ADB expressed what he intended to express, I would be the last person to "read to much into it" because I'm way more of a Lion fan than a Curze fan


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Either way, whether he worded it poorly or not he's still stated his actual intention.


I don't even think it's worded poorly. Someone going limp for a second is hardly The End. We don't know what would've happened, because it was interrupted, but all the people saying it takes a lot to kill a primarch are on the right track. 

Considering the fight carried on for several minutes afterwards, it's very obviously not the end, and it ended in a draw. But even before that, it's madness to take things beyond literally, to the point of scouring word by word for some nuance of truth. It is what it is, and add your own knowledge to it. What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in _every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie_) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"?

The fight wasn't finished. It was interrupted. That's the freaking point. It's about _doubt_. It began with the Lion winning, and was interrupted as Curze was winning. There's no more to it than that. 

Seriously, these WHO BEATS WHO threads are the bane of creativity and sanity. 

The answer is never "Whoever the author likes best" or "X, because he's better."

The answer is always "Whoever gets the upper hand because of circumstance."

And in this case, it was both of them, at different moments. The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The real fight between them is obviously yet to come


I truly look forward to reading that, it would be a sin if Black Library didn't feature their rematch in a later book...I hope you get to finish off what you started

my personal impression on "who was winning" aside, I think the fight in savage weapons was well-written and entertaining


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I don't even think it's worded poorly. Someone going limp for a second is hardly The End. We don't know what would've happened, because it was interrupted, but all the people saying it takes a lot to kill a primarch are on the right track.
> 
> Considering the fight carried on for several minutes afterwards, it's very obviously not the end, and it ended in a draw. But even before that, it's madness to take things beyond literally, to the point of scouring word by word for some nuance of truth. It is what it is, and add your own knowledge to it. What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in _every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie_) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"?
> 
> The fight wasn't finished. It was interrupted. That's the freaking point. It's about _doubt_. It began with the Lion winning, and was interrupted as Curze was winning. There's no more to it than that.
> 
> Seriously, these WHO BEATS WHO threads are the bane of creativity and sanity.
> 
> The answer is never "Whoever the author likes best" or "X, because he's better."
> 
> The answer is always "Whoever gets the upper hand because of circumstance."
> 
> And in this case, it was both of them, at different moments. The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat.


I don't think it was poorly worded, I was just referring to the other posters who thought it was.


----------



## nate187

This is my thread and my opinion was just wondering how others felt. It is open and biased/non biased opinion based so people can sook all they want thanks for the feed back men 

Love it cheers


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



harlokin said:


> ADB (you know, the talented chap who penned the story) has stated that he wrote the fight as a draw.
> 
> His quote below:
> 
> _*"Curze doesn't best the Lion. It's a fight like most fights between equals; it ebbs and flows, with the advantage exchanging between each participant."*_
> 
> That is the author's view of what he wrote, anything else is your own imaginary view of things instead of what's really printed.


You just don't get it, do you?

We're not debating the author's view, we're debating the story. Let me quote MontytheMighty's excellent post: 
_"thing is, the author's explanation doesn't jive with the words he actually wrote 
it doesn't matter what the author was thinking in his mind, it's what the author actually wrote down on paper, and this is coming from a Lion/Dark Angels fan"_

Like most great writers _I assume_ that ADB lets some of the story write itself. Most great writers have an idea of what they wanna write and then they write it. Exactly how it turns out, word for word, is beyond them. If they had perfect control _I believe_ the language would feel very constructed and stiff; it wouldn't "flow".

If ADB says that Curze and the Lion are equally good fighters, then, by the power of the fiction maker, it is so. 

But... that's not the item under scrutiny here. The item we're discussing is the chances of the Lion making it out of _this particular fight _unaided. This we do based on what is written, and here I dare say that everyone's interpretation is equally valid, as long as it is founded on facts. 

Saying that the fight is 100% even is just (sorry for the harsh word [not directed at you or anyone else]) ludicrous, given the wording of the text. Even with the sucker-punch, had the Lion managed to overcome his disadvantage on the ground unaided, I would concede that it could have been anyone's fight. Now, saying it's "more than a chance" is IMO ignoring what is written. 

All interpretation of our senses (hearing, seeing, smelling etc.) is somewhat biased (based on prior experiences, preferences etc.) but there is still something called an objective interpretation/view. However, there is a line you can cross when you let your past experiences and preferences color your view so severely it can no longer be called an objective interpretation. 

If you stand by your view that this fight really was anyone's fight, I believe you have crossed that line. 

Cheers 

P.S. Heck, the fight between Russ and Magnus was IMO more even than this one. Not the outcome, but the way it ebbed and flowed. D.S.

P.P.S I would be very surprised if we don't see the Lion dominating Curze in the near future. In order to placate all the Dark Angel fans out there :wink:. D.S.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Dead.Blue.Clown who is the author stated people where reading to much into the word slack, he pointed out that yes Curze had the upper hand at that point but like all fights, the person at the disadvantage could soon be on top.

I dunno, once the author explains his reasoning there's not much that can be discussed imo.


----------



## MontytheMighty

of course I defer to ADB...it's his intellectual creation after all

I'm just saying that the description in the book indicates that the Lion was overwhelmed
ADB's true intent only became apparent after he posted in this thread 

one crucial word makes a big difference here, "slack neck in a heretic's grip" is like saying "limp body under a heretic's weight", it's very hard to argue that the Lion wasn't overwhelmed in the absence of any explanation from ADB

furthermore, the Lion took a while to recover after Corswain jumped in


----------



## harlokin

no pain no gain said:


> You just don't get it, do you?
> 
> We're not debating the author's view, we're debating the story. Let me quote MontytheMighty's excellent post:
> _"thing is, the author's explanation doesn't jive with the words he actually wrote
> it doesn't matter what the author was thinking in his mind, it's what the author actually wrote down on paper, and this is coming from a Lion/Dark Angels fan"_
> 
> Like most great writers _I assume_ that ADB lets some of the story write itself. Most great writers have an idea of what they wanna write and then they write it. Exactly how it turns out, word for word, is beyond them. If they had perfect control _I believe_ the language would feel very constructed and stiff; it wouldn't "flow".
> 
> If ADB says that Curze and the Lion are equally good fighters, then, by the power of the fiction maker, it is so.
> 
> But... that's not the item under scrutiny here. The item we're discussing is the chances of the Lion making it out of _this particular fight _unaided. This we do based on what is written, and here I dare say that everyone's interpretation is equally valid, as long as it is founded on facts.
> 
> Saying that the fight is 100% even is just (sorry for the harsh word [not directed at you or anyone else]) ludicrous, given the wording of the text. Even with the sucker-punch, had the Lion managed to overcome his disadvantage on the ground unaided, I would concede that it could have been anyone's fight. Now, saying it's "more than a chance" is IMO ignoring what is written.
> 
> All interpretation of our senses (hearing, seeing, smelling etc.) is somewhat biased (based on prior experiences, preferences etc.) but there is still something called an objective interpretation/view. However, there is a line you can cross when you let your past experiences and preferences color your view so severely it can no longer be called an objective interpretation.
> 
> If you stand by your view that this fight really was anyone's fight, I believe you have crossed that line.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> P.S. Heck, the fight between Russ and Magnus was IMO more even than this one. Not the outcome, but the way it ebbed and flowed. D.S.
> 
> P.P.S I would be very surprised if we don't see the Lion dominating Curze in the near future. In order to placate all the Dark Angel fans out there :wink:. D.S.


Apologies, but it is you who doesn't quite get it. 

I don't dispute that the fight reads more like a victory for Curze than anything else, but it is the author himself who said that this is a misreading of what he intend.

All I explored in my earlier post was how the fight might have developed if we take ADB's view at face value. I obviously didn't take into account having to justify such musings to an argumentative pedant such as yourself. :wink:


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

no pain no gain said:


> P.P.S I would be very surprised if we don't see the Lion dominating Curze in the near future. In order to placate all the Dark Angel fans out there :wink:. D.S.


We already know the Lion slits Curze's throat later in the Heresy. And that also assumes that "all the Dark Angel players out there" need "placating". I've seen less than 10 people online say the Lion was 100% going down and Curze dominated him in that fight. I've seen and talked to hundreds that didn't take that view. It's dangerous to assume a forum opinion is anything more than the tiniest minority.



harlokin said:


> I don't dispute that the fight reads more like a victory for Curze than anything else, but it is the author himself who said that this is a misreading of what he intend.


It's a victory in the sense it ends when Curze is on top, definitely. I'd never dispute that. But I still, after not only writing it, but re-reading it 800 times, and speaking to countless people about it - fail to see how it's supposedly definitive. To say the Lion was absolutely screwed requires doing more than reading the thing, it requires assuming that in this one fight, a primarch is suddenly not as capable of shrugging off injury as in every other fight we've seen them, and a few minutes of being smacked around were enough to end him completely, rather than leave him battered and dazed at his lowest ebb in the battle. Why anyone would assume that was The End, rather than the moment before he gets his second wind or taps into a reserve of strength (like in, well, every single protagonist fight in movies and books) is beyond me. I'm not sure why that's so hard to imagine, especially when coupled with what we know of primarchs. In fact, ignoring that and saying "Gosh, the Lion is screwed" sort of requires some immense leaps of logic not offered in the text.

It also requires a devotion to the word "slack" rather than taking the bigger picture and adding it to established primarch lore, and assuming things way beyond the text presented. He was messed up for a little bit, sure. That was the point. He got breathing room when one of his Legion was smart and brave enough to interfere. I'm sure three minutes after it, if the fight hadn't been interrupted, Curze would have needed breathing room - only his men wouldn't have chosen to aid him.

People are entitled to their opinions, without a doubt. But let's just say I'm not losing sleep over a tiny handful of people online insisting it reads as X, when everything else, and every other opinion, points to Y.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It also requires a devotion to the word "slack" rather than taking the bigger picture and adding it to established primarch lore, and assuming things way beyond the text presented.
> People are entitled to their opinions, without a doubt. But let's just say I'm not losing sleep over a tiny handful of people online insisting it reads as X, when everything else, and every other opinion, points to Y.


Aaron, could you please explain why the Lion does not do anything while Curze is trying to dislodge Corswain?
The explanation that popped up in my head was that the Lion was down and out, and needed time to recover.
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, it's a legitimate question.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> Aaron, could you please explain why the Lion does not do anything while Curze is trying to dislodge Corswain?
> The explanation that popped up in my head was that the Lion was down and out, and needed time to recover.
> I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, it's a legitimate question.


And it was answered, several times. There's a difference between being on the losing end of a fight (before a second wind? before one of a hundred things that always happens in these fights?), and "being down and out" for good. As I've said several times. As we know from every record of primarchs fighting. As I said here:



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> He was messed up for a little bit, sure. That was the point. He got breathing room when one of his Legion was smart and brave enough to interfere. I'm sure three minutes after it, if the fight hadn't been interrupted, Curze would have needed breathing room - only his men wouldn't have chosen to aid him.


With all respect, I'm done with this now. It's been going in circles for ages, and only shows signs of continuing that way.

Even your question makes no sense. The answer is obvious. _"Aaron, could you please explain why the Lion does not do anything while Curze is trying to dislodge Corswain?"_

He _does_ do something. He stands up immediately, and advances on Curze after retrieving his blade. It's there in the text, as plain as day. How is that "doing nothing"?

Curze gets stabbed. He rises and flails to get Corswain off. He does so. It doesn't take long. The Lion is up, recovers his sword, and advances immediately.

How is that someone completely down and out for good?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Sorry Aaron, tried to stop it from going around in circles, thanks for taking the time to respond though


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



harlokin said:


> Apologies, but it is you who doesn't quite get it.
> 
> I don't dispute that the fight reads more like a victory for Curze than anything else, but it is the author himself who said that this is a misreading of what he intend.
> 
> All I explored in my earlier post was how the fight might have developed if we take ADB's view at face value. I obviously didn't take into account having to justify such musings to an argumentative pedant such as yourself. :wink:


Argumentative pedant!!! :shok: 

I guess I can live with that... :biggrin:

Cheers


----------



## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> We already know the Lion slits Curze's throat later in the Heresy. And that also assumes that "all the Dark Angel players out there" need "placating". I've seen less than 10 people online say the Lion was 100% going down and Curze dominated him in that fight. I've seen and talked to hundreds that didn't take that view. It's dangerous to assume a forum opinion is anything more than the tiniest minority.


I think there is a simple reason for that; you have been an ambitious "defender" of the "100% even battle theory" on several forums. I dare say that few people would argue with the author himself. I _assume_ there are more Dark Angel fans out there than Nightlords fans, so when you make your statement, people are probably more than happy to just except it and tell themselves (something like): "Thank God, the Lion did _not_ get dominated; he is still the badass I think he is". (Actually, getting smacked by Curze doesn't mean you can't still be a badass.)

Basically, when you make a statement, the discussions stop. The fact that you feel the need to get involved or just the fact that your involvment is needed tells me that there is something to this and that there are quite some discussions concerning this. I, for one, haven't seen a lot of similar discussions concerning other Primarch fights, like how Magnus could hold his ground against Russ, or the chances of Lorgar recovering against Corax etc. 

But of course, as you point out... these are all assumptions on my part.:wink:



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's a victory in the sense it ends when Curze is on top, definitely. I'd never dispute that. But I still, after not only writing it, but re-reading it 800 times, and speaking to countless people about it - fail to see how it's supposedly definitive.


I don't believe anyone is disputing that _anything_ is possible. I personally dispute whether it is _probable_, which you seem to imply. 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> To say the Lion was absolutely screwed requires doing more than reading the thing, it requires assuming that in this one fight, a primarch is suddenly not as capable of shrugging off injury as in every other fight we've seen them, and a few minutes of being smacked around were enough to end him completely, rather than leave him battered and dazed at his lowest ebb in the battle. Why anyone would assume that was The End, rather than the moment before he gets his second wind or taps into a reserve of strength (like in, well, every single protagonist fight in movies and books) is beyond me. I'm not sure why that's so hard to imagine, especially when coupled with what we know of primarchs. In fact, ignoring that and saying "Gosh, the Lion is screwed" sort of requires some immense leaps of logic not offered in the text.
> 
> It also requires a devotion to the word "slack" rather than taking the bigger picture and adding it to established primarch lore, and assuming things way beyond the text presented. He was messed up for a little bit, sure. That was the point. He got breathing room when one of his Legion was smart and brave enough to interfere. I'm sure three minutes after it, if the fight hadn't been interrupted, Curze would have needed breathing room - only his men wouldn't have chosen to aid him.


The thing here is, unlike Lorgar and Fulgrim, the Lion did _not _get breathing room. It seems highly unlikely that he would overcome "the crystal clear advantage" without something happening. Rather the opposite; for every second of strangulation and head smashing his chances should go down. Even in the movies (which you have mentioned before), the villain often pauses before the supposed death strike that the hero so neatly manages to reverse. 

From what we have read, the Primarchs have crazy regenerative powers, but we have also seen them become incapacitated, albeit for a very short period of time (Magnus against Russ, Lorgar against Corax, Manus in his second fight against Fulgrim). The Lion's regenerative powers are indeed extraordinary; he only needs a couple of seconds to pull himself together and fight, despite having most of his head gone. However, he still seems to need those precious few seconds that Corswain gives him. 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> People are entitled to their opinions, without a doubt. But let's just say I'm not losing sleep over a tiny handful of people online insisting it reads as X, when everything else, and every other opinion, points to Y.


That is just a ridiculous statement. Please tell me what passages point to Y (as in Y being the fight was 100% even). I can easily give you quotes that point to X.

Btway, is a tiny handful of people a lot less than just a handful of people? Remember that frustration leads to anger, and anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the dark side... and many sleepless nights :wink:

Cheers


----------



## MontytheMighty

no pain no gain said:


> It seems highly unlikely that he would overcome "the *crystal clear advantage*" without something happening. Rather the opposite; *for every second of strangulation and head smashing his chances should go down*. Even in the movies (which you have mentioned before), the *villain often pauses before the supposed death strike that the hero so neatly manages to reverse*.
> 
> The Lion's generative powers are indeed extraordinary; he only needs a couple of seconds to pull himself together and fight, despite having most of his head gone. However, *he still seems to need those precious few seconds that Corswain gives him*.
> 
> 
> That is just a ridiculous statement. Please tell me what passages point to Y (as in Y being the fight was 100% even). I can easily give you quotes that point to X.


I would agree that the words he used made it look highly unlikely that the Lion could have saved himself without Corswain helping out

What he intended to express is one thing, what he actually wrote is another

but you and I might as well save our breath because he's already left in a huff. The author has made it "crystal clear" that those who disagree with him on this point are delusional


----------



## gen.ahab

MontytheMighty said:


> The author has made it "crystal clear" that those who disagree with him on this point are delusional


Tbh, his is the final word on it, and what he says on what he wrote is, for all intents and purposes, the word of God. It is his creation, plain and simple. How he says it went is how it went and what he says it means is what it means. That. Is. It.


----------



## MontytheMighty

gen.ahab said:


> Tbh, his is the final word on it and what he says on what he wrote is, for all intents and purposes, the word of God. It is his creation, plain and simple. How he says it went is how it went and what he says it means is what it means. That. Is. It.


sure, his intent might control what is canon. I'm not even disputing that.

but there is inconsistency between _what he wrote in a book_ and _his_ _stated intent on an internet forum_ . That. is. it.

I'm a Dark Angels fan, I'm glad the author stated that it was supposed to be an even fight, but that doesn't change what he wrote in the book. IMO what ADB did is just retcon what he wrote.


----------



## gen.ahab

MontytheMighty said:


> IMO what ADB did is just retcon what he wrote.


Well, you are perfectly welcome to your opinion.


----------



## MontytheMighty

gen.ahab said:


> Well, you are perfectly welcome to your opinion.


as you are to your opinion

If I wrote X, but I later state that I meant Y...Y might be canon, but what I wrote is still X

of course, the topic of this thread isn't as cut and dry


----------



## gen.ahab

MontytheMighty said:


> of course, the topic of this thread isn't as cut and dry


No, it most certainly isn't.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> but you and I might as well save our breath because he's already left in a huff. The author has made it "crystal clear" that those who disagree with him on this point are delusional


Seriously?

Dude, grow up. I'm as immensely freaking busy as anyone else, and I divide my forum time between half a dozen forums, blogs, and endless PMs. Don't insult me because I don't spend all day in your pet topic.

You still read it that way. All good, enjoy your point of view. I can even see why you'd think it. I don't. Most people don't. I don't think it's there, but it's a fandom with strong views, and I can see why people get touchy about their favourite factions. They read too much into things. They infer too much. They grasp at straws. Welcome to the main reason most authors don't even come to these places. I'm practically the only one that discusses canon, and their work, and fan reaction to everything.

You are living proof of why all the others tell me not to bother. It's a lot of unrewarding hassle, sometimes. I replied half a dozen times, in detail and at length, and when I finally say I don't have the time or effort to continue a blatantly circular and pointless debate, you _insult me_ for "leaving in a huff".

See why authors don't come here? 

We also know that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat. He clearly wins the war. If that doesn't soothe your bafflingly rattled sensitivities, then I've got no idea what will.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Y'know, I've just realised - after all that - what a few of you are talking about.

Suddenly it makes so much more sense.

Will edit this reply in a few; need to pick up Katie from work.

EDIT:

Righto.

I've been just as guilty as over-analysing and being declarative as anyone else, which is weird, since my writing is always so carefully played out to show absolute neutrality. I never prefer Faction X to Faction Y, and I never suggest otherwise in my writing. It's a common criticism for a lot of writers, however.

If you look at _The First Heretic_, some people say Guilliman was being a smarmy bastard, other people say Lorgar was imagining it, and was deluded. That's the point. It's an objective look that shows the scene from no one's personal perspective, but it shows exactly what everyone believes, without being from their point of view. That's crucial, in my opinion, for a scene like that. It was a conscious choice, and quite hard to right, but I'm glad it worked well.

Savage Weapons isn't like that, because we're seeing it from Corswain's perspective. It's not an objective look on Everything That Happened; it's a series of slices of one character making out what details he can. That's why so much of the fight goes isn't there - because Corswain can't see it happening. Does Corswain think the Lion is going to go down for good? Yeah, probably. Is that objectively the truth? No, of course not. Not from everything we know, not from the fact we see it end perfectly 50/50 minutes later. Your focus determines your reality. He sees it, and that's described well, but most people reading it are aware it's a Dark Angel perspective.

As a writer, I ultimate chose that I wanted the Dark Angels to win the Thramas Crusade, and I wanted the Lion to slit Curze's throat, effectively being one of the few primarchs to legitimately beat another. And it was a conscious choice with Savage Weapons to show:

- The Dark Angels care about their primarch more than the Night Lords care about theirs.
- The Dark Angels are smart enough to try to tip the odds of an otherwise balanced fight, while the Night Lords get distracted with bloodshed or are too arrogant to care.
- The Lion was better than Curze with weapons, but Curze was better in a feral rough and tumble brawl.
- Curze is Chaos-tainted already, and had an advantage, but it still ends at 50/50. This implies the Lion is "better", for want of a better word.
- The fight ebbs and flows, with the advantage changing places. Had it gone on for longer, it probably would've swapped back.

The last one is the debate, natch. Now, objectively, we should know that primarchs can take a beating; that the Lion is up immediately afterwards; that it ends 50/50 a moment later; that we're seeing it through Corswain's limited, biased, worried eyes; and that the Lion takes a serious beating, but nothing worse than we've seen other primarchs take before, and manage a last-second recovery.

But the debate here, as from Corswain's perspective, I'd say you're right - absolutely, he thought the Lion was screwed. It definitely looked like that to him.

Objectively? No. It's clearly a story from his perspective. Very clearly. It's intensely subjective, and with all we know about the primarchs, we can see his bias clearly.

The problem arises when people take these versus threads and over-analyse them, seeing every morsel of information as solid fact, rather than biased perspective. Some stories are objective, written from an outsider's view. They're built by details of what's actually happening. Some are subjective, written from a character's point of view. They're built from examples of how a character perceives the events taking place. The danger is in taking that as solid objective fact. What Corswain saw was coloured by his worry and loyalty - thankfully, the objective facts (the Lion leaps up and goes for his sword right after, etc.) show that he was biased.

But it's an easy mistake to make. In this fandom, where people are precious and hungry for every comparative fact, it's easy to assume that every source is unbiased. Which is a shame, really. It lessens the impact of some great writing, in a lot of cases, when people are so hungry for information that they miss the point a little.

So, what do we know for sure, objectively? We know the Lion wasn't as injured as Corswain thought, as he gets right back up and goes for his sword. That's right there in the text. Do we know for sure if the Lion would have survived without the aid? No, of course we don't. We can infer it, we can guess it, and it's likely from everything we know of the primarchs (...and the fact the author secretly had already decided the Dark Angels were going to win the Thramas Crusade... Ahem...) but ultimately none of that matters. Either way, it's a guess. There's no evidence, but for a biased, panicked bystander.

That's where the misunderstanding is arising from. Corswain is a subjective narrator. You're taking his assumptions and perceptions as canon for how powerful a primarch is, and the ultimate end of a fight. We never saw that fight end, so we don't know. We can't know. From Cor's POV in the story, yeah, absolutely, he thought the Lion was down for the count.

Fortunately, later actions show he was wrong. That's the true part, the unbiased, objective part. That's how you balance a subjective bias, and show the other side: you show how the character is wrong, or another way of looking at it.


----------



## forkmaster

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> .


_Post above!_
:goodpost: Thats all I had to say! Now just leave and move on. ^^


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> - Curze is Chaos-tainted already, and had an advantage, but it still ends at 50/50. This implies the Lion is "better", for want of a better word.


Haven't you said in the past that Curze wasn't really Chaos tainted or at least not in the early stages and his dementia/poor health,etc. could be chalked up to other non-chaos related reasons? 

I've always seen Curze as being as strong as he is, physically and mentally, due to his upbringing and personality rather than an affiliation, deliberate or unintentional, with Chaos.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> We also know that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat.


Has this incident already been written about or will you be doing that in the future?

Also, I don't see how the slitting of Curze's throat automatically makes the Lion the victor if that is what you are implying.

Off-topic, but what is your stance towards writing about the Alpha Legion? Have you considered it or do you think you ever will after certain other authors (like Rob Sanders/Abnett) tinker around with them for a bit ?

Thanks.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Meh Alpha Legion get enough attention. 

I really wish Black Library would nail down a World Eaters Novel.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I'm all for a WE novel, and for a while I felt like I was the only one here hoping BL would focus on them more lol.

But the AL are far from getting enough attention. There only has been one novel featuring them in a long time and even then they had mostly a cameo role. And we already have naysayers saying that they don't want the AL to be the star of a novel in fears that their mystique might wash away which to me is nonsense.


----------



## Jerushee

I recall blue clown stated Curze's state of being was due to not eating his daily vitamins and getting his eight hours of sleep, things of that nature. It was on another forum I believe, or perhaps this one, but multiple posters raised their belief that Curze was drifting towards the patronage of Nurgle.

This was due to the way it described Curze, looking like a walking corpse, and also the way he had unnatural (even for a primarch) stamina and toughness, taking a stab to the spine as well as the stomach and it slowed him down not a moment. Additionally it makes numerous references how corpse like, how death is all about him, decay, and so forth, additionally it makes mention of Curze's unholy strength.

Unholy strength, massive stamina and toughness, corpse like, death, decay....sounds like nurgle. Most significantly the line in the story where it states "The unholy light that brimmed from Curze's eyes" or some thing similar to that line, but it was talking about how an unnatural light was radiating from Curze, an unholy strength.

So multiple posters began to believe these details were all hinting at the early stages of Chaotic taint, chaos influence.

However blue clown stated it was not due to chaos at all, and that it was due to Curze fighting without sleep for months on end....but now he states it is due to chaos influence.....

So was Curze truly going towards Nurgle? Was nurgle interested in claiming Curze as his own?

Ultimately I believe blue clown wont be able to satisfy both camps, one will always but rustled until a definitive story is produced which objectively and beyond argument states their (insert character they identify with most) is superior without a doubt.

It seems to me blue clown is trying to grab some sort of middle ground to satisfy both camps desperately, by stating curze was on top for the moment, but theoretically the lion could have come back....however in literature that is not the case....readers do not interpret stories that way, they take what is written and use that to scaffold their already constructed paradigm of how X character identifies with their own self.

Anything which contradicts this internal perception, is an attack directly on their own identity and thus produces a defensive reaction....blue clown your not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced...which seems to be the majority of this world and society...

Your interpretation of the material is your own...however your lotus of control is extremely limited and mostly only influences your own perception and those directly connected to you within your own internal network....beyond that you lose influence upon the perceptions of others. The material you write and is produced globally however is taken and used however the masses choose, truly you have no control over that, and likely never will in this reality, the masses decide what is true, if enough people believe in a lie it becomes truth.

Ultimately truth is the paradigm the majority accepts, anything which contradicts this, is a lie. And in your case your interpretation if not the majority, becomes wrong, even if you are the writer.


----------



## Boc

Words_of_Truth said:


> Meh Alpha Legion get enough attention.


You speak heresy!


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Malus Darkblade said:


> Haven't you said in the past that Curze wasn't really Chaos tainted or at least not in the early stages and his dementia/poor health,etc. could be chalked up to other non-chaos related reasons?


Yes. That's _exactly_ the point. It's not a case of LOLCHAOS or "pure". That's not how this works. 

Look... this isn't a codex. It's not giving you rules for how tainted Curze is on a percentage chart. You don't pick up a magic axe and become tainted. There are as many ways to fall to Chaos as there are Chaos followers themselves. The problem here is that, yes, in the past some revelations of Chaos have been so traditional and unsubtle (through McGuffins) that people start to assume that's how Chaos works. It doesn't. There's a continuum. That's at the more hilariously obvious end, with no doubt about taint.

How do you think it starts with Curze? He doesn't worship Chaos. He barely even acknowledges its existence. It's _subtle_. It's not a magic gift that gives him super powers and sorcery. It's a degeneration that eats away at his humanity and what little ethical boundaries he has left.

Shades of grey. Nuance.

An utterly untainted Curze might not have even attacked the Lion. He might have tried for even longer to negotiate, or tried to end the fight before it ended with them screaming at one another. We don't know, that's the point - we never will. The information is there to give doubt, to inspire mystique, to make people realise the options and then wonder what's behind it all. It's not about "I bet Nurgle is behind all this." That's simplistic to the point of childishness, and isn't how Chaos works across the board.

It's all in the realm of _might_ and _maybe_, which is - with the greatest respect - the point. This is a nuanced setting. Nothing is clear-cut, and most of us work very, very hard to make sure it stays that way, which is why you have objective scenes where both interpretations are equally likely (Lorgar and Guilliman) and subjective bias (Corswain) argued with by objective fact (the Lion got right back up). It's the easiest thing in the world to write simplistically and avoid any nuance or doubt, but most of us aren't 13 years old (with respect to all 13-year-olds out there) and like something a little more 40K, and a little deeper, a little better-written.

And most readers get it. It's only when the eagerness for information couples with a controversial scene that a few fans get riled up. Understandably so. You should see the fandom-based rants I've spilled online over the years. Fans_ care_. That's why they rock.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I've always seen Curze as being as strong as he is, physically and mentally, due to his upbringing and personality rather than an affiliation, deliberate or unintentional, with Chaos.


Absolutely. At _first_. But his trafficking with Chaos isn't like Lorgar's or Horus's. It's not overt. It's not about what benefits he gets. It's a cancer within him, whether he likes it or not, whether he even knows it's there or not. Chaos doesn't make Curze stronger, physically or mentally. It makes him more dangerous, sure, but not for anything so obvious or simple as "I'm tainted, so I'm immediately more badass". This isn't _Blade_.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also, I don't see how the slitting of Curze's throat automatically makes the Lion the victor if that is what you are implying.


It seems a pretty clear indication of victory to me. How many people have won a fight if they're the ones with their throat cut?




Jerushee said:


> However blue clown stated it was not due to chaos at all, and that it was due to Curze fighting without sleep for months on end....but now he states it is due to chaos influence.....
> 
> So was Curze truly going towards Nurgle? Was nurgle interested in claiming Curze as his own?


_This_ is why these discussions fail. _People take things too literally._ They read far too much into them, bringing their assumptions and suddenly assuming the writer himself is making statements of X, Y and Z. You see a guy looking wretched. Suddenly he's Chaos-tainted in the extreme. It's suggested that nope, he's either just screwed up, or beginning the slow decline into Chaos madness - at this stage, it barely matters, and the text is specifically crafted to evoke the possibilities of both. But no, 0.05% are blind to nuance, and demand to know what specific god is behind it all, as if it were a codex instead of a story. Is it Nurgle? Is it Nurgle doing all this? No, again, if it's taint, then it's just the first hints of spreading corruption rising not from "LOLCHAOS" but from someone degenerating physically and mentally, and succumbing to-- "NO, WAIT," people interrupt, "IS IT NURGLE?"

Madness. There's so much more to Chaos than "The gods did it." So, so much more. So many more layers. It's a shame to see it reduced to those terms.



Jerushee said:


> It seems to me blue clown is trying to grab some sort of middle ground to satisfy both camps desperately,


You can think what you like, but don't blow 3 or 4 people on a forum out of proportion. I come here and discuss this stuff because I, like, everyone else, am a fan and a forum addict. Do you honestly think I need to worry what a handful of people on the internet say about Savage Weapons? Compared to the reviews, and my editors, and GW's IP manager, and every other comment I've had about it? Look at this from a realistic perspective, just for a moment. One of the main reasons authors insist to me these forums are pointless is because they're most definitely the bleeding edge of opinion in the fandom, and a tiny, tiny percentage of all fans. They can be safely ignored, in essence. Now, I don't ignore fans on forums. Quite the opposite. But you can surely see why everyone else does, from game design to novel writers. Ultimately, there's no need to acknowledge their opinions. It changes nothing in the grand scheme. I do it because I'm here, and because I love discussing 40K lore.

I've explained it above, in crystal clear terms. There's no desperation or middle ground. There is what's there, explained rationally, maturely, and - if I do say so myself - with infinitely more detail than pretty much any other freaking debate over work by other authors. Do you think any other author bothers to reply to something like this, especially in such detail, by a handful of people? No, they'd be rolling their eyes and saying "Jesus, they're so slow" or "Whatever, everyone else gets it" and never think twice about it. I know that, because that's exactly what most of them do. They've warned me countless times to do the same.



Jerushee said:


> The material you write and is produced globally however is taken and used however the masses choose, truly you have no control over that, and likely never will in this reality, the masses decide what is true, if enough people believe in a lie it becomes truth.


No one knows that as well as 40K writers, trust me. Look at the Blood Ravens. Hints and jokes become truth, because the masses choose to believe them. However, there's a difference in scale. This is one fight that most people have loved, not a major slice of canon across several mediums.

Again, this is spinning in circles, and from a clear explanation, we're getting into "I think Aaron's just trying to..." territory, which is unnecessary and pointless. If you read that explanation about subjective and objective narrative, and reply by essentially calling me a liar, then there's nothing more to be done (and secretly, I fear for you as a human being).

There's nothing left to explain. You have the truth, and a great deal of how 40K functions, as well as how to write 40K novels, laid out in plain, detailed terms. Aspiring Black Library writers would shed blood to have half of this explained at a seminar. Can I get back to my life without spending an hour typing the same stuff here every day, without being insulted for leaving in a huff, this time, please?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I'd like to again apologise if anything has annoyed you.

Thanks for taking the time to respond with detailed answers, as you said it's not every day the author of a book bothers to respond and I guess maybe some have taken the fact you have, for granted.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Thanks for your view on things ADB. 

Off-topic but Nurgle never struck me as being as ... _intelligent_ as his brothers, rather he seems to be the most retarded chaos power of the bunch lol and it would most certainly suck if one day, after being presented with a briefcase full of cash, you decide to roll with Curze and Nurgle having a one way friendship.

Though I still don't see how a Primarch having his throat cut constitutes to him being the loser of a fight, we've seen them take a lot more heat and still come out on top. 

Curze and the Lion's fight for example, the latter had part of his head carved out and it didn't seem to bother him in the slightest. In my opinion, a fight as clear-cut as the one between Lorgar and Corax is more of a solid, defined, without a doubt victory.

And I'm disappointed you didn't bother with my question about you trying your hand with the AL (I'm going to assume it's due to business reasons ?)


----------



## Jerushee

I will admit, I know of not one writter who would respond to forum posts as often as you do, and for that I do thank you for fleshing out your opinion and perception of the events in your novels.

However you have already decided that Curze loses in the end to the Lion, you understand that human beings weigh the last even in a series of events as the most influential correct?

Many individuals of this present age remember world war II as the allies winning with the axis losing...however the war was very much constituted of victories on the axis part, up until a certain point where the war was lost. But few recall those events or give credit to the Axis, this is because in the end winners write history, and the allies won the final battle/s.

The fact that you have already decided that the lion wins the final big encounter between himself and Curze, has permanently forcasted that Curze is going to be remembered as the loser.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Jerushee said:


> I will admit, I know of not one writter who would respond to forum posts as often as you do, and for that I do thank you for fleshing out your opinion and perception of the events in your novels.
> 
> However you have already decided that Curze loses in the end to the Lion, you understand that human beings weigh the last even in a series of events as the most influential correct?
> 
> Many individuals of this present age remember world war II as the allies winning with the axis losing...however the war was very much constituted of victories on the axis part, up until a certain point where the war was lost. But few recall those events or give credit to the Axis, this is because in the end winners write history, and the allies won the final battle/s.
> 
> The fact that you have already decided that the lion wins the final big encounter between himself and Curze, has permanently forcasted that Curze is going to be remembered as the loser.


This history has already been played out in snippets. Curze is the loser. It's the one thing that is simple and black/white about this whole scenario. Everyone is taking my friend Aaron's statements waaaaay too literally. 40k and the events of the Horus Heresy are always based on individual interpretation and viewing angle. Each characters actions and decisions clouded by their beliefs, loyalties, and oaths. That's what makes this a fun setting. 

An individual can have an interpretation of the writing. And it will usually vary from the views of other fans. To ask an author to clearly and succinctly delineate the why, how, and wtf for?! of a book or piece of fiction 100% rooted in nuance and speculation, is absurd.

Fans will always have opinions. And many are stubborn enough to say, "no, you got that wrong!" right to an authors face, or call them out on some sort of "mistake" that isn't there (see this thread for examples). Sure, call him on it, but then listen to his explanations and descriptions of events and take them as the truth. He's not lying to you! When you have an author there to speak to, the last thing you want is for them to feel insulted, and stop chatting. Especially when their bombarded with accusations that they screwed something up! They didn't. It's as simple as that. You may think the universe should be written one way, and that the events that unfold in that universe should ultimately turn out the way you want. But you're wrong. You're not the author. The author ultimately decides who dies when, where, and how.  They shape the universe that is 40k. They mold it's history, and the sculpt it's future. To stubbornly insist they should do things your way, is an insult of the highest order. (and a dick move in my book).

Move on gents (all of you). Aaron has been kind enough to give a seminars worth of information to you today. Dont drive him away for good. He doesn't normally like to have to ramble on to correct the inane lunacy of some trumped-up fan's nonsensical blathering. I would know. 

Thank you Aaron for your post, and i appreciate what you've done for this thread. Consider your mission done. No amount of text will convince some fans that they are truly wrong. 

And any more questions directed to him without first reading and COMPREHENDING! what he's already said, will get slapped with a trolling infraction. i'm done with it. 

Commissar Ploss


----------



## Jerushee

Where has it ever been stated in snipits aside from this recent short story, that Curze ultimately loses?

This is the first decision I have ever seen where it is decided and stated by the author that Curze is doomed to failure and defeat at the hands of the Lion.

My quesiton is why? There is no good and evil, no true righteous faction in play, why is it Curze is doomed to experience the last defeat. 

Why is curze played as the villain? When he is not, the lion is not righteous, both are grey.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Jerushee said:


> Where has it ever been stated in snipits aside from this recent short story, that Curze ultimately loses?
> 
> This is the first decision I have ever seen where it is decided and stated by the author that Curze is doomed to failure and defeat at the hands of the Lion.
> 
> My quesiton is why? There is no good and evil, no true righteous faction in play, why is it Curze is doomed to experience the last defeat.
> 
> Why is curze played as the villain? When he is not, the lion is not righteous, both are grey.


he's not.  Curze is only played the villain when it's a loyalist talking. The Sons of Curze don't call him a villain. They love him. It's all open to interpretation my friend. All determined by which side you're standing on when you discuss it. You have to be able to remove yourself from the emotions that clearly plague you... It's unsightly. Have a more objective view of things will you? Swallow your pride and love for the Night Haunter and view things unbiased. You'll see that there are always two sides to any story.

CP


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Commissar Ploss said:


> he's not.  Curze is only played the villain when it's a loyalist talking. The Sons of Curze don't call him a villain. They love him. It's all open to interpretation my friend.
> 
> CP


Pretty sure most of them called him bat shit crazy and a far cry from his glory days in I think Blood Reaver.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Jerushee said:


> My quesiton is why? There is no good and evil, no true righteous faction in play, why is it Curze is doomed to experience the last defeat.
> 
> Why is curze played as the villain? When he is not, the lion is not righteous, both are grey.


He's not played as the villain. You're imagining things, and ascribing them to the situation. Are you annoyed that Horus loses? So Curze loses a fight later in the Heresy. Just like many other primarchs, he's beaten by another. Why is _that_ so bad? Why is _that one_ so difficult to accept? Sanguinius will lose to Horus. Are you objecting to that? What about Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim? Lorgar and Corax? Russ and the Lion? Curze and M'shen? Alpharius and Guilliman? Guilliman and Fulgrim? Why is this the one fight you invent blame for, as if it was about making one side lessened, and the other side better, or as simple and silly as "good and evil"?

At no point is it about Curze being the "villain", and the Lion being "righteous". At no point has that even been mentioned.

You're swinging at ghosts, now. You're inventing motivations for something, and aiming blame for no reason.


----------



## gen.ahab

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Russ and the Lion?


(puts on Rout fanboy helmet)
That never fucking happened. :crazy:

Other than that, this whole debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.


----------



## Jerushee

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> He's not played as the villain. You're imagining things, and ascribing them to the situation. Are you annoyed that Horus loses? So Curze loses a fight later in the Heresy. Just like many other primarchs, he's beaten by another. Why is that so bad? Why is that one so difficult to accept? Sanguinius will lose to Horus. Are you objecting to that? What about Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim? Lorgar and Corax? Russ and the Lion? Curze and M'shen? Alpharius and Guilliman? Guilliman and Fulgrim? Why is this the one fight you invent blame for, as if it was about making one side lessened, and the other side better, or as simple and silly as "good and evil"?
> 
> 
> 
> At no point is it about Curze being the "villain", and the Lion being "righteous". At no point has that even been mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> You're swinging at ghosts, now. You're inventing motivations for something, and aiming blame for no reason.


Most of 40k fluff has purposely been left in the grey, always open and never closed to objective classification...it has been this way for decades.

Yet recently, the writting style has changed, more and more have close ended conclusions been interjected into the fluff....

Horus losing? He killed the Emperor in concept, shattered the imperium and Chaos spread throughout the galaxy unopposed in large. This was left open to interpretation...Horus lost his life, but so too did the Emperor, it was balanced.

Sanguinius losing to horus? It has never been confirmed, but purposely always been left open to quesiton. Was it horus who killed sanguinius or was it the emperor who killed sanguinius...even the art work reflects this notion, he has piercings from a sword, not from power claws. The emperor stands over him with Sanguinius facing the emperor not horus...the wound is from the front not the rear....

Fulgrim possibly decapitated his brother, but it was as just as much a loss for Fulgrim as it was for manus, Fulgrim lost his mind, soul and body...he fundamentally died just as Manus did....it was balanced. Aside from this I believe that Manus is still alive on Mars, alive....its never confirmed.

As for Curze and Mshen....its never been confirmed by fact that the Night Haunter died...it was all from the subjective point of view of one of his "loyal" followers. I believe in the theory that Night Haunter had him lie, or used his psyker abilities have him, others see what was not truly happening.

As for Magnus and Russ, Magnus purposely lost the battle, he wasn't trying to fight for his life.......besides what did it cost russ? The majority of his legion, the fight was balanced.

But to flat out state the Lion will slit Curze's throat...definitively defeat him, is unbalanced and eliminates the trade mark of games workshop...leaving everything open ended.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Jerushee said:


> Most of 40k fluff has purposely been left in the grey, always open and never closed to objective classification...it has been this way for decades.
> 
> Yet recently, the writting style has changed, more and more have close ended conclusions been interjected into the fluff....
> 
> Horus losing? He killed the Emperor in concept, shattered the imperium and Chaos spread throughout the galaxy unopposed in large. This was left open to interpretation...Horus lost his life, but so too did the Emperor, it was balanced.
> 
> Sanguinius losing to horus? It has never been confirmed, but purposely always been left open to quesiton. Was it horus who killed sanguinius or was it the emperor who killed sanguinius...even the art work reflects this notion, he has piercings from a sword, not from power claws. The emperor stands over him with Sanguinius facing the emperor not horus...the wound is from the front not the rear....
> 
> Fulgrim possibly decapitated his brother, but it was as just as much a loss for Fulgrim as it was for manus, Fulgrim lost his mind, soul and body...he fundamentally died just as Manus did....it was balanced. Aside from this I believe that Manus is still alive on Mars, alive....its never confirmed.
> 
> As for Curze and Mshen....its never been confirmed by fact that the Night Haunter died...it was all from the subjective point of view of one of his "loyal" followers. I believe in the theory that Night Haunter had him lie, or used his psyker abilities have him, others see what was not truly happening.
> 
> As for Magnus and Russ, Magnus purposely lost the battle, he wasn't trying to fight for his life.......besides what did it cost russ? The majority of his legion, the fight was balanced.
> 
> But to flat out state the Lion will slit Curze's throat...definitively defeat him, is unbalanced and eliminates the trade mark of games workshop...leaving everything open ended.


Pretty sure Mshen had Curze in her hand as she fled from Talos in Soul Hunter.


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## Jerushee

Words_of_Truth said:


> Pretty sure Mshen had Curze in her hand as she fled from Talos in Soul Hunter.


I wont argue this as its left open to interpretation, but I believe Curze never died and that he purposely set it up. Either used his psyker abilities and created an illusion, or he had nightlord marine who we saw the story through, lie to us (the readers). This is not the first time Night Haunter breaks the fourth wall, the other being in savage weapons, where he references how the lion will be a fence sitter. Some thing the loyalist never come to call him, and some thing the traitors never call him as they know he is not with them, it is some thing only the fans of this world label him...thus he forsaw into our world, breaking the fourth wall.

I can see that Curze forsaw our world and purposely lied to us about his death, knowing we would view his supposed end from that particular nightlord marine, thus he had him lie.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

Curze was clearly killed. Talos witnessed his head in her hands. That was definitive. 

Why are you so opposed to change? What's the big deal if people start "actually losing." Put on a diaper if you can't handle it. It's a fictional universe, none of this should be bothering you this much... it's just odd.

CP


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## gen.ahab

I'm sorry, but wasn't there something in the collected visions that clearly stated that Horus KILLED tweety (sang)?

Oh yes, and Horus did lose. His forces were driven back, his fleets thrown to the far corners of the galaxy, he did not become the new emperor, the imperium did not fall to his hands, his soul was utterly obliterated AND the emperor is not dead. In my personal opinion, that would be a loss.


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## Malus Darkblade

Jerushee said:


> Sanguinius losing to horus? It has never been confirmed, but purposely always been left open to quesiton. Was it horus who killed sanguinius or was it the emperor who killed sanguinius...even the art work reflects this notion, he has piercings from a sword, not from power claws. The emperor stands over him with Sanguinius facing the emperor not horus...the wound is from the front not the rear....


Curious, but why on earth would the Emperor kill Sangunuis? Has there been any mention in old fluff of Sangunuis being corrupted by Horus or something ?


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## gen.ahab

Malus Darkblade said:


> Curious, but why on earth would the Emperor kill Sangunuis? Has there been any mention in old fluff of Sangunuis being corrupted by Horus or something ?


No, he is basing this off a hunch, and a picture which proves little to nothing.


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## Commissar Ploss

no. Tweety Bird was loyal to the end. until someone says otherwise in their novel, that's what i believe.

CP


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## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> - The Dark Angels care about their primarch more than the Night Lords care about theirs.
> - The Dark Angels are smart enough to try to tip the odds of an otherwise balanced fight, while the Night Lords get distracted with bloodshed or are too arrogant to care.
> - The Lion was better than Curze with weapons, but Curze was better in a feral rough and tumble brawl.
> - Curze is Chaos-tainted already, and had an advantage, but it still ends at 50/50. This implies the Lion is "better", for want of a better word.
> - The fight ebbs and flows, with the advantage changing places. Had it gone on for longer, it probably would've swapped back.
> 
> we're seeing it through Corswain's limited, biased, worried eyes


I never meant to insult you, if that's how you took it I sincerely apologize...I've been quite respectful to you in my posts 
you sounded annoyed when you cut off the discussion, that's why I said you "left in a huff", and you honestly gave me the impression that you thought I was talking nonsense 

my view is by no means the indisputable truth, but my view is not baseless

I feel that a forum is place where we may all speak freely, and all I ever wanted to do is express my opinion on a story that I enjoyed



Jerushee said:


> I recall blue clown stated Curze's state of being was due to not eating his daily vitamins and getting his eight hours of sleep, things of that nature. It was on another forum I believe, or perhaps this one, but multiple posters raised their belief that Curze was drifting towards the patronage of Nurgle.


this is what he said:



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Pretty much. People can try to look too hard behind the curtain sometimes, or take a single adjective to mean some grand hint, rather than just taking it as descriptive prose. The 40K setting doesn't really play out according to the rulebooks. He looks like crap because he's a haunted, screwed-up, psychopathic, murdering madman on an endless crusade, fighting every single day, commanding massive armies against his own empire, while receiving visions of his own death from an unknowable source, and being - unarguably, in 20 years of lore - affected to some degree by the power of Chaos, whether he wants to admit it or not. He's probably not eating right, either. Curze isn't the kind of guy to get his 5 fruit-and-veg a day, and I doubt he gets his 8 hours of sleep a night.


He was saying that 1) Nurgle was not necessarily Curze's patron, but now we know 2) Curze was Chaos-tainted. This makes sense because 1) and 2) are not contradictory.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Jerushee said:


> Sanguinius losing to horus? It has never been confirmed, but purposely always been left open to quesiton. Was it horus who killed sanguinius or was it the emperor who killed sanguinius...even the art work reflects this notion, he has piercings from a sword, not from power claws. The emperor stands over him with Sanguinius facing the emperor not horus...the wound is from the front not the rear....



Really? Are you on smack? 

Sound like another Lux in the making, shall i start to break out the paper mache?


----------



## the.alleycat.uk

Dude, I think at this point you're just dealing with tribalism:

360 vs PS3
PC vs Mac
Footballist team A vs B
etc.

Your previous explanations have been more than clear, repeatedly more than clear... Anyone who was part of a discussion and prepared to have their mind changed has already done so.

Now i suspect you are just banging your head against a brick wall to no purpose ;p



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> He's not played as the villain. You're imagining things, and ascribing them to the situation. Are you annoyed that Horus loses? So Curze loses a fight later in the Heresy. Just like many other primarchs, he's beaten by another. Why is _that_ so bad? Why is _that one_ so difficult to accept? Sanguinius will lose to Horus. Are you objecting to that? What about Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim? Lorgar and Corax? Russ and the Lion? Curze and M'shen? Alpharius and Guilliman? Guilliman and Fulgrim? Why is this the one fight you invent blame for, as if it was about making one side lessened, and the other side better, or as simple and silly as "good and evil"?
> 
> At no point is it about Curze being the "villain", and the Lion being "righteous". At no point has that even been mentioned.
> 
> You're swinging at ghosts, now. You're inventing motivations for something, and aiming blame for no reason.


----------



## DominusNox

erm ... did you guys read The First Heretic? NH doesn´t even break a sweat blocking Corax, while Corax fights to free himself. and he is supposed to be a great warrior!

I didn`t read Savage Weapons, will get it soon! 
and one thing I hate about 40k books is that almost everything depends on the author, and they tend to ruin the perfect chaos of 40k.


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## MontytheMighty

DominusNox said:


> erm ... did you guys read The First Heretic? NH doesn´t even break a sweat blocking Corax, while Corax fights to free himself. and he is supposed to be a great warrior!


at most this would mean that a fresh Curze is physically stronger than a not-so-fresh Corax
I wouldn't jump to any premature conclusion just yet


----------



## BlackGuard

I find it amazing that to this day there are still those that will deny Night Haunter's abilities. While in some cases, this is clear and proven -- in others it seems nothing more than a childish desire to continue to put him down because of the supposed 'fanboyism' that surronds him. 

For starters, Curze has bested Dorn, The Lion, and Corax. You can immediate decry my statement and hurl at me several assumptions and facts and it will not matter. In Dorn's case you will cry out 'He jumped him! It wasn't fair!', and I will not care. A fight is a fight, and only a fool tries to fight fair. If I were in a fight with someone, there would be no honor nor supposed fairness to it. Kill or be killed, history will only give a damn about the winner.

You will then cry out 'The Lion has more skill!', and you are right. The Lion in a straight up fight with Curze would slaughter him -- but that doesn't really matter does it? If you are fighting someone who is good at attacking you at long distance, but utterly sucks up close -- why would you fight him at long distance? Why would you fight fair and give him a chance? If Lion El'Jonson wants to be the honorable fool and get killed because he refuses to do whats nessecary to win -- thats his own damned fault and proves Curze is superior.

The last of you will finally cry 'Corax was tired! He was wounded! He'd already fought for so long AND had to beat Lorgar', and you'd be right. Still it doesn't matter -- I would take no pity upon an enemy who is weakened and exhausted. I would march forward and kill him without a second thought. Why let him fight fair? Why let him get his bearings or draw his blade? Strike him down and end his so-called "skill" right there.

Night Haunter is the gene-father of his sons and in Blood Reaver, it is stated so wonderfully, when the First Claw explains how when the Night Lords fight a straight up fair fight they loose, but when they employ their honorless tactics -- they almost always win. Night Haunter was that mentality born manifest and it is why I have always seen him as my favorite Primarch.

The mentality of winning to win, no matter the cost and no matter the means. Skill by deception, by honorless cruelty, and by feral savagry is still skill. Night Haunter is the type to wait in the shadows for his foes to weaken, then strike out and cut their heads from their bodies -- thus ending their so-called 'skill'.

Night Haunter is superior and he is a badass. I do not care to talk about 'fair fights', for in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium no one fights 'fair'.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

BlackGuard said:


> For starters, Curze has bested Dorn, The Lion, and Corax. You can immediate decry my statement and hurl at me several assumptions and facts and it will not matter. In Dorn's case you will cry out 'He jumped him! It wasn't fair!


We don't know if Kurze surprise attacked Dorn and to be honest, as I've stated before, I don't think a Primarch can be snuck up on.



BlackGuard said:


> You will then cry out 'The Lion has more skill!', and you are right. The Lion in a straight up fight with Curze would slaughter him


Says who? All we have seen in Savage Weapon is that the Lion is the better swordsman while Kurze is the better brawler. In the end, Kurze had the upper-hand despite being stabbed at the beginning of the fight.



BlackGuard said:


> The last of you will finally cry 'Corax was tired! He was wounded! He'd already fought for so long AND had to beat Lorgar', and you'd be right.


People assume Kurze simply walked to Corax and did not have to fight his way through Raven Guard Astartes either.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Ffs and we're off again. Seriously, Kurze literally just got to Istvaan, even if he did have to fight Raven Guard on his way to Corax, they would have all been heavily fatigued, disorientated and hopelessly outnumbered, not that they would have been a match for a primarch anyway. Corax by comparison has been on the field continuously fighting for a very long time, just slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak, pretty much the most powerful combatants on the field after the primarchs and he's just fought Lorgar, who whilst not the most difficult fight, still would have taken it out if him. Now he's outnumbered again by two primarchs(we see it doesn't take long for Lorgar to recover at all) one of whom is like I said, for all intents completely fresh. Why would he possibly stick around? It would be illogical, foolhardy and reckless, of course he's going to break off.
How does this demonstrate Kurze is amazing and superior to Corax in anyway and of course it's relevant that Corax was wounded and fatigued, how can you possibly say Kurze is superior when he had everything going for him at the time. Its not like Corax could have prevented Kurze entering the fight. To simply discredit everything Kurze had going for him, ignore all of Coraxs disadvantages and then declare Kurze to be superior is naive to say at the least.

Dorn is all subjective to what you think happened.

The Lion, well ADB has already declared it was a draw and that the Lion will later beat Kurze anyway. It's already been greatly discussed here, some Kurze fanatics still won't accept the draw despite the authors clear statement on the matter, so tough, no point continuing arguing if they won't accept that. As for Kurze being stabbed. It was a straight clean stab, no complications, straight in and out. Did you see how quickly Lorgar recovered when he was fucking eviscerated?? A stab wound like that it like a paper cut in comparison.


----------



## harlokin

Angel of Blood said:


> Ffs and we're off again. Seriously, Kurze literally just got to Istvaan, even if he did have to fight Raven Guard on his way to Corax, they would have all been heavily fatigued, disorientated and hopelessly outnumbered, not that they would have been a match for a primarch anyway. Corax by comparison has been on the field continuously fighting for a very long time, just slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak, pretty much the most powerful combatants on the field after the primarchs and he's just fought Lorgar, who whilst not the most difficult fight, still would have taken it out if him. Now he's outnumbered again by two primarchs(we see it doesn't take long for Lorgar to recover at all) one of whom is like I said, for all intents completely fresh. Why would he possibly stick around? It would be illogical, foolhardy and reckless, of course he's going to break off.
> How does this demonstrate Kurze is amazing and superior to Corax in anyway and of course it's relevant that Corax was wounded and fatigued, how can you possibly say Kurze is superior when he had everything going for him at the time. Its not like Corax could have prevented Kurze entering the fight. To simply discredit everything Kurze had going for him, ignore all of Coraxs disadvantages and then declare Kurze to be superior is naive to say at the least.
> 
> Dorn is all subjective to what you think happened.
> 
> The Lion, well ADB has already declared it was a draw and that the Lion will later beat Kurze anyway. It's already been greatly discussed here, some Kurze fanatics still won't accept the draw despite the authors clear statement on the matter, so tough, no point continuing arguing if they won't accept that. As for Kurze being stabbed. It was a straight clean stab, no complications, straight in and out. Did you see how quickly Lorgar recovered when he was fucking eviscerated?? A stab wound like that it like a paper cut in comparison.


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## DominusNox

@ Monty: true indeed! but then again remember that 40k is basically controlled by chaos,that is the charm of that world.

@BlackGuard: I understand what you mean, but I loooooove Night Haunter of other reasons. main reason is that he didn`t give into chaos and chose death instead :smug: 

now to the buisness:
1. even if Night Haunter (Ave Dominus Nox!) did walk to Corax and loser Lorgar, how did they not notice his presence? I mean it is a battlefield! Night Haunter is the best primarch when it comes to sneaking.

2. Corax would only get fatigued fighting Lorgar if it was a best-author contest! I hope we all agree that Lorgar sucks at fighting! and those posessed guys sucked! a normal world eater would do much better.

3. there is supposedly a fluff where Girlyman is sparring Night Haunter. Girlyman is doing all he can whilst Night Haunter is planning what to do next day and blocking unconsciously.

4. Night Haunter used to have jetpack as well, but then decided it`s more fun to sneak up on people. and it is his choice to only use lightning claws, not that he can`t shoot! even Lorgar can figure out how to use a bolt pistol! he is not a brawler! he does what he is good at, such as scaring, mocking then killing slowly :biggrin: and face it, it is more challenging

5. yes, Night Haunter died. But! he knew the assassin was coming, he told his sons to watch and "see how the mighty are fallen". after all "death is nothing compared to vindication"! RESPECT! (If you want to read on this don`t bother with Soul Hunter, Lord of The Night is much better with the flashbacks.)

and honesty I don`t like the novels as much as the fluffs since the authors tend to ruin the story. here`s an example - an inquisitor becoming a farseer in a Gaunt`s Ghosts novel! the lesson is that you cannot use books as valid arguments. just smile and be good heretics :grin:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> Ffs and we're off again.


lol it beats the recent amount terrible threads/discussions here.



Angel of Blood said:


> Seriously, Kurze literally just got to Istvaan, even if he did have to fight Raven Guard on his way to Corax, they would have all been heavily fatigued, disorientated and hopelessly outnumbered, not that they would have been a match for a primarch anyway.Corax by comparison has been on the field continuously fighting for a very long time, just slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak, pretty much the most powerful combatants on the field after the primarchs and he's just fought Lorgar, who whilst not the most difficult fight, still would have taken it out if him. Now he's outnumbered again by two primarchs(we see it doesn't take long for Lorgar to recover at all) one of whom is like I said, for all intents completely fresh. Why would he possibly stick around? It would be illogical, foolhardy and reckless, of course he's going to break off.


My point wasn't about the fatigue levels of the Primarchs involved but rather the assumption people have that Kurze, despite when he arrived on Istaavan, simply walked up to where Corax and Lorgar were fighting, crossed his arms together and waited to see who was going to win and only then deciding to jump in.

And if I am not mistaken, we've had this exact debate before, as to whether or not Corax was fighting the moment the first loyalist Astartes was shot in the back. A Primarch in my opinion would instantly be taken as far away from the fighting as possible not only for safety reasons but also to figure out what exactly is going on and what to do. 

Putting aside his pre-Aurelian passiveness, Lorgar stepped into the battlefield only when seeing his brother slaughtering his legion and when he realized what he was doing. So I don't see why it's hard to fathom Corax doing the same, only stepping into the fight when he realized the loyalists had no chance of fighting back/escaping given the traitors opportunistic first strike and setup. 



Angel of Blood said:


> The Lion, well ADB has already declared it was a draw and that the Lion will later beat Kurze anyway. It's already been greatly discussed here, some Kurze fanatics still won't accept the draw despite the authors clear statement on the matter, so tough, no point continuing arguing if they won't accept that.


Just as ADB has debated that the Lion had a chance of overcoming Kurze without the intervention of one of his sons and while being choked to death, I would only believe/accept the Lion 'winning' if he makes it as clear as night and day without an iota of doubt.



Angel of Blood said:


> As for Kurze being stabbed. It was a straight clean stab, no complications, straight in and out. Did you see how quickly Lorgar recovered when he was fucking eviscerated?? A stab wound like that it like a paper cut in comparison.


Despite his Primarch durability, Kurze still had to clutch his wound with one hand and bolted into the safety of the ruins to give him time to recover and to get the advantage on his _noble _ brother.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> lol it beats the recent amount terrible threads/discussions here.
> 
> 
> 
> My point wasn't about the fatigue levels of the Primarchs involved but rather the assumption people have that Kurze, despite when he arrived on Istaavan, simply walked up to where Corax and Lorgar were fighting, crossed his arms together and waited to see who was going to win and only then deciding to jump in.
> 
> And if I am not mistaken, we've had this exact debate before, as to whether or not Corax was fighting the moment the first loyalist Astartes was shot in the back. A Primarch in my opinion would instantly be taken as far away from the fighting as possible not only for safety reasons but also to figure out what exactly is going on and what to do. *The debate concluded he was fighting, as it literally states Corax was fighting in the most fierce areas where the battles where hardest. He was also fighting the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters and Sons of Horus before the rest of the traitors arrived *
> 
> Putting aside his pre-Aurelian passiveness, Lorgar stepped into the battlefield only when seeing his brother slaughtering his legion and when he realized what he was doing. So I don't see why it's hard to fathom Corax doing the same, only stepping into the fight when he realized the loyalists had no chance of fighting back/escaping given the traitors opportunistic first strike and setup.
> 
> *It is hard to fathom because he was already fighting, you're using your own tactical sensibilities to discern what could of happened and ignored what did.*
> 
> 
> 
> Just as ADB has debated that the Lion had a chance of overcoming Kurze without the intervention of one of his sons and while being choked to death, I would only believe/accept the Lion 'winning' if he makes it as clear as night and day without an iota of doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite his Primarch durability, Kurze still had to clutch his wound with one hand and bolted into the safety of the ruins to give him time to recover and to get the advantage on his _noble _ brother.


I fail to see the point of rehashing all this, it's already been debated enough and a lot of the argument being used now (again) are exactly the same ones used before which where proven to be wrong assumptions.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> I fail to see the point of rehashing all this, it's already been debated enough and a lot of the argument being used now (again) are exactly the same ones used before which where proven to be wrong assumptions.


I replied to someone who bumped this thread and AOB replied to me. Logical conclusion would be for you to do the same instead of going 'lawl hashbrowns'.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> I replied to someone who bumped this thread and AOB replied to me. Logical conclusion would be for you to do the same instead of going 'lawl hashbrowns'.


But it is hash brown. Look at the parts I bolded in blue, you used that argument before despite the fact it was shown previously that Corax had been fighting for a very long time.

There's no point resurrecting a thread unless you've read all the way through and are simply repeating what's been said before without adding to the discussion, and this is exactly what's occurred.

I could present my rebuttals if you like such as Kurze attacking Dorn was unprecedented since never before had a Primarch gone loopy in the middle of a telling off with such furiousness, especially when you consider Dorn was arguable as respected as Horus and the other "prime" primarchs.

The debate with the Lion and Curze was settled with what the author said so I have no more to add on that and you should know all the arguments about why Curze didn't defeat Corax, as a fight never took place.


----------



## Angel of Blood

As he pointed out though an incidently i believe it was me who originally pointed it out. Corax was fighting the entire time, unlike Lorgar. I could go back through these pages and post the exact quote stating Corax was fighting everywhere in the fiercest places, but then we may aswell post this 










Now, onto this next example of rabid fanboyism



DominusNox said:


> @ Monty: true indeed! but then again remember that 40k is basically controlled by chaos,that is the charm of that world.
> 
> @BlackGuard: I understand what you mean, but I loooooove Night Haunter of other reasons. main reason is that he didn`t give into chaos and chose death instead :smug:
> 
> now to the buisness:
> 1. even if Night Haunter (Ave Dominus Nox!) did walk to Corax and loser Lorgar, how did they not notice his presence? I mean it is a battlefield! Night Haunter is the best primarch when it comes to sneaking.
> 
> 2. Corax would only get fatigued fighting Lorgar if it was a best-author contest! I hope we all agree that Lorgar sucks at fighting! and those posessed guys sucked! a normal world eater would do much better.
> 
> 3. there is supposedly a fluff where Girlyman is sparring Night Haunter. Girlyman is doing all he can whilst Night Haunter is planning what to do next day and blocking unconsciously.
> 
> 4. Night Haunter used to have jetpack as well, but then decided it`s more fun to sneak up on people. and it is his choice to only use lightning claws, not that he can`t shoot! even Lorgar can figure out how to use a bolt pistol! he is not a brawler! he does what he is good at, such as scaring, mocking then killing slowly :biggrin: and face it, it is more challenging
> 
> 5. yes, Night Haunter died. But! he knew the assassin was coming, he told his sons to watch and "see how the mighty are fallen". after all "death is nothing compared to vindication"! RESPECT! (If you want to read on this don`t bother with Soul Hunter, Lord of The Night is much better with the flashbacks.)
> 
> and honesty I don`t like the novels as much as the fluffs since the authors tend to ruin the story. here`s an example - an inquisitor becoming a farseer in a Gaunt`s Ghosts novel! the lesson is that you cannot use books as valid arguments. just smile and be good heretics :grin:


1. The best? Care to source that. You realise Corax can make himself invisible to others in plain sight, whilst not actually becoming literally invisible he essentially from the sounds of it, makes their minds not register him. Allowing him to walk around the now dead battlefield of Istvaan past all the traitor astartes without them knowing. Show me where Kurze can do any such thing.

2. I'm not even going to begin on this one

3. Supposedly? 









4. Source please. Kurze didn't exactly go slow with the Lion or Dorn now did he?

5. Yeah......? No ones disputing that.

Lilith hardly became a farseer either.


----------



## Chompy Bits

BlackGuard said:


> For starters, Curze has bested Dorn, The Lion, and Corax. You can immediate decry my statement and hurl at me several assumptions and facts and it will not matter. In Dorn's case you will cry out 'He jumped him! It wasn't fair!', and I will not care. A fight is a fight, and only a fool tries to fight fair. If I were in a fight with someone, there would be no honor nor supposed fairness to it. Kill or be killed, history will only give a damn about the winner.


Firstly, he did not best all three. The fight with the Lion was a draw, the *freakin' author* said so. The 'fight' with Corax wasn't even a fight at all. It was a single claw block. And we still don't have a real clear picture what exactly happened when he dropped Dorn. 



BlackGuard said:


> You will then cry out 'The Lion has more skill!', and you are right. The Lion in a straight up fight with Curze would slaughter him -- but that doesn't really matter does it? If you are fighting someone who is good at attacking you at long distance, but utterly sucks up close -- why would you fight him at long distance? Why would you fight fair and give him a chance? If Lion El'Jonson wants to be the honorable fool and get killed because he refuses to do whats nessecary to win -- thats his own damned fault and proves Curze is superior.


I don't see at all how the Lion having more honour makes Curze superior. It just makes Curze a bigger douchebag. And, again, it was a draw. 



BlackGuard said:


> The last of you will finally cry 'Corax was tired! He was wounded! He'd already fought for so long AND had to beat Lorgar', and you'd be right. Still it doesn't matter -- I would take no pity upon an enemy who is weakened and exhausted. I would march forward and kill him without a second thought. Why let him fight fair? Why let him get his bearings or draw his blade? Strike him down and end his so-called "skill" right there.


Again, kicking a guy when he's down. And outnumbered. Really not impressive at all IMO.



BlackGuard said:


> Night Haunter is the gene-father of his sons and in Blood Reaver, it is stated so wonderfully, when the First Claw explains how when the Night Lords fight a straight up fair fight they loose, but when they employ their honorless tactics -- they almost always win. Night Haunter was that mentality born manifest and it is why I have always seen him as my favorite Primarch.


So basically, the Night Lords suck so hard that they need to cheat to have a decent shot at winning.:laugh:


----------



## Tyrannus

Chompy Bits said:


> So basically, the Night Lords suck so hard that they need to cheat to have a decent shot at winning.:laugh:


So you just realised Night Lords don't fight fairly, cheat and occasionally act like cowards?

What a revelation.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Did you miss the part where he was clearly taking the piss?


----------



## BlackGuard

There will be no convincing any of you. I find it ironic that Curze's reputation have developed something outside of this game, that it has in fact created within it as well.

The Night Lords, at least in my eyes, fight against a galaxy that ultimately hates them. The Loyalists for obvious reasons, but also Chaos who views them with contempt for they do not embrace Chaos as they should have.

Night Lords and Night Haunter fans in our own world face a similar problem. Anytime we envoke his name, and put the word "badass" or "awesome" in the same sentence there are legions of people who simply cannot let it go and must bombard us with a constant torrent of "ITS BULLSHIT! NO, I WILL NOT ACCEPT CRUZE IS ANYTHING BUT A DUMBASS!" ... 

In both instances we fight/argue in Night Haunter's name ultimately and in both realities we are hated by our enemies and disgusted by our friends.

Such is the fate of a Night Lord ...


----------



## Words_of_Truth

BlackGuard said:


> There will be no convincing any of you. I find it ironic that Curze's reputation have developed something outside of this game, that it has in fact created within it as well.
> 
> The Night Lords, at least in my eyes, fight against a galaxy that ultimately hates them. The Loyalists for obvious reasons, but also Chaos who views them with contempt for they do not embrace Chaos as they should have.
> 
> Night Lords and Night Haunter fans in our own world face a similar problem. Anytime we envoke his name, and put the word "badass" or "awesome" in the same sentence there are legions of people who simply cannot let it go and must bombard us with a constant torrent of "ITS BULLSHIT! NO, I WILL NOT ACCEPT CRUZE IS ANYTHING BUT A DUMBASS!" ...
> 
> In both instances we fight/argue in Night Haunter's name ultimately and in both realities we are hated by our enemies and disgusted by our friends.
> 
> Such is the fate of a Night Lord ...


It's more the comments that draw something completely off key with what is written that causes opposition.


----------



## BlackGuard

All of these were fights and engagments -- no matter how short or under what circumstances they were born under. The fight with Dorn, since there is no evidence, is hard to speculate upon but one that ultimately shows an outcome. Cruze struck Dorn, and he walked away alive with Dorn on the ground. In regards to the Lion, the author can say he wrote it down to a draw if fine by me. He wrote it to a draw, but I clearly saw something else happening. Curze was choking the Lion to death and an intervention by the Lion's Dark Angels saved his life. Would he have gotten out of the choke-hold, perhaps, but it is irrelevent to what actually happened.

For Corax, it is simple. No matter what claims you heap upon the incident, the so-called 'independant factors' such as Corax having fought for so long and had to defeat Lorgar, it doesn't actually matter. Corax _fled_ from Night Haunter, thus proving the Night Lord's superior 'skill'. 

We Night Lords fans are not preaching that Night Haunter is the more powerful of all Primarchs, nor do we proclaim that he is unbeatable or simply too awesome to look at. We only demand that he be given his proper place in the brotherhood of Primarchs and acknowledged as one of the best of the Primarchs.


----------



## BlackGuard

Chompy Bits said:


> Firstly, he did not best all three. The fight with the Lion was a draw, the *freakin' author* said so. The 'fight' with Corax wasn't even a fight at all. It was a single claw block. And we still don't have a real clear picture what exactly happened when he dropped Dorn.


The author's statements about the fight are fine, but ultimately I feel the Lion was on the ropes had his allies not intervened. 



> I don't see at all how the Lion having more honour makes Curze superior. It just makes Curze a bigger douchebag. And, again, it was a draw.


It doesn't inherently makes Curze superior. Curze's ability to exploit the Lion's honor makes him superior. Where the Lion is a knight first and foremost, Curze is a sadistic bastard would kill you, rape your lady, and steal your dog.



> Again, kicking a guy when he's down. And outnumbered. Really not impressive at all IMO.


For me, it is actually impressive. It shows Curze had intelligence. Bring to me a moment in history where deception and dishonorable tactics have not been used in the prosecution of a war. Kicking a guy when hes down means one thing -- he won't be getting back up to take revenge anytime soon.

Very impressive.



> So basically, the Night Lords suck so hard that they need to cheat to have a decent shot at winning.:laugh:


Yet, amongst all the so-called Traitor Legions, they alone stand pure, or about as pure as any traitor can. Save for the Alpha Legion, but who can really say what they have become? 

Also, show me a war when the winning side hasn't "cheated" to win. In a war, or in a fight, victory is the only thing that matters. History will laud a Cheater as a herald of the times, as a god amongst men, as a warrior-king without equal if he wins. History will give but a semi-compassionate footnote about the honorable fool who lost to him.

Deception, cheating, tastelessness, and sadism are just as much tools of war as honor, bravery, and courage. Just two sides of the same coin.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

BlackGuard said:


> All of these were fights and engagments -- no matter how short or under what circumstances they were born under. The fight with Dorn, since there is no evidence, is hard to speculate upon but one that ultimately shows an outcome. Cruze struck Dorn, and he walked away alive with Dorn on the ground. In regards to the Lion, the author can say he wrote it down to a draw if fine by me. He wrote it to a draw, but I clearly saw something else happening. Curze was choking the Lion to death and an intervention by the Lion's Dark Angels saved his life. Would he have gotten out of the choke-hold, perhaps, but it is irrelevent to what actually happened.
> 
> For Corax, it is simple. No matter what claims you heap upon the incident, the so-called 'independant factors' such as Corax having fought for so long and had to defeat Lorgar, it doesn't actually matter. Corax _fled_ from Night Haunter, thus proving the Night Lord's superior 'skill'.
> 
> *We Night Lords fans are not preaching that Night Haunter is the more powerful of all Primarchs, nor do we proclaim that he is unbeatable or simply too awesome to look at. We only demand that he be given his proper place in the brotherhood of Primarchs and acknowledged as one of the best of the Primarchs.*


These three sentences before contradict that.

There is evidence to what happened between Dorn and Curze. In the Dark King and Lightning Tower we witness the event from Curze's point of view and Dorn's reaction to it. Curze attacked Dorn while he was being told off, Curze was not in control of himself, he was having visions. This attack was unprecedented, never before had a Primarch gone nuts while being told off by a figured as respected as Dorn before. Dorn was surprised, Dorn possibly didn't strike back because he saw the madness in Curze's eyes as he indicated in the Lightning Tower. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

"For Corax, it is simple. No matter what claims you heap upon the incident, the so-called 'independant factors' such as Corax having fought for so long and had to defeat Lorgar, it doesn't actually matter. Corax _fled_ from Night Haunter, thus proving the Night Lord's superior 'skill'. "

Superior skill? simply holding a lightning claw thats about to plunge through another Primarchs body is not skill. Corax withdrew tactically as he was surrounded and possible fatigued after fighting in the heaviest spots and after fighting the original traitor legions from the start.

I don't acknowledge him as one of the best Primarchs. He was weak, he saw the visions of the future and instead of doing something about them, he gave into them. The Angel possibly saw the future yet he did all he could to oppose it. Curze was weak, his legion was full of thieves, murderers and dishonourable thugs.


----------



## Deadeye776

I honestly believe it's a draw and I'm a Kurze fan. Why is Kurze such a draw? Because Apocalypse Now is one of if not my favorite movies. The tragedy of a warrior becoming disillusioned with his sides ideals and choosing to rebel and become a rogue resonates with a lot of people. The character of Col. Kurtz has spawned a lot of characters based off of his persona. The ruthless way he started fighting the war and the assassin the americans sent (Martin Sheen or in 40k M'shen) to kill him. Lion is more of a twist of Arthurian Legend with a secret society like the masons twist.

I always wondered why UFC doesn't have anyone that practices techinques like Arnis or Kalis. The answer is those forms are pretty much devoloped to put down your opponent swiftly and fatally. It's not sporting. The Lion is a warrior. Kurze is a killer. Anyone who hasn't been in combat would probably say warriors kill. In the book Nemesis its obvious that they make a solid distinction. A warrior fights wars for his ideals and beliefs.A killer kills anyway he can when the opportunity presents itself. He doesn't care about honor or fair play. He's only in it for the kill. So when people make stupid comments like "I can't believe the Night Haunter fought under handed" I laugh. That's like saying "It surprised the crap out of me when Russ ended up in a bar brawl with his wolves."


----------



## Angel of Blood

BlackGuard said:


> Night Lords and Night Haunter fans in our own world face a similar problem. Anytime we envoke his name, and put the word "badass" or "awesome" in the same sentence there are legions of people who simply cannot let it go and must bombard us with a constant torrent of "ITS BULLSHIT! NO, I WILL NOT ACCEPT CRUZE IS ANYTHING BUT A DUMBASS!" ...
> 
> In both instances we fight/argue in Night Haunter's name ultimately and in both realities we are hated by our enemies and disgusted by our friends.
> 
> Such is the fate of a Night Lord ...


No, you fans don't simply declare he is badass or awsome, you declare he is superior to Primarchs like Corax and the Lion whilst making massive leaps in logic. Nor do those who counter these remarks unleash the caplocks and say anything like your example 'quote', said quote ironically has the reverse effect and makes you in fact look childish, seeing as not one person has ever reacted in such a way.



BlackGuard said:


> In regards to the Lion, the author can say he wrote it down to a draw if fine by me. He wrote it to a draw, but I clearly saw something else happening. Curze was choking the Lion to death and an intervention by the Lion's Dark Angels saved his life. Would he have gotten out of the choke-hold, perhaps, but it is irrelevent to what actually happened.


How is that irrelevant? How can you possibly say the Lion might have gotten out of it, but then go onto to declare its irrelevant and go on to say Kurze is superior.



BlackGuard said:


> For Corax, it is simple. No matter what claims you heap upon the incident, the so-called 'independant factors' such as Corax having fought for so long and had to defeat Lorgar, it doesn't actually matter. Corax _fled_ from Night Haunter, thus proving the Night Lord's superior 'skill'.


Why doesn't it matter? Seriously, how can you disregard all those contributing factors? How does this in anyway prove that Night Haunter is superior to Corax. 



BlackGuard said:


> We Night Lords fans are not preaching that Night Haunter is the more powerful of all Primarchs, nor do we proclaim that he is unbeatable or simply too awesome to look at. We only demand that he be given his proper place in the brotherhood of Primarchs and acknowledged as one of the best of the Primarchs.


You demand? You see where you are going wrong here? I don't ever see any of the Vulkan, Khan, Manus, Perutrabo fans 'demanding' that people recognise their favourite primarch to be one of the best. There is no 'best' or the primarchs, they are all excellent in their own areas.



BlackGuard said:


> It doesn't inherently makes Curze superior. Curze's ability to exploit the Lion's honor makes him superior. Where the Lion is a knight first and foremost, Curze is a sadistic bastard would kill you, rape your lady, and steal your dog.


This is another thing that confused me. How did Curze exploit the Lions honor, did you forget the bit where the Lion dishonorably stabbed Curze? The Lion has shown time and time again that he is willing to strike the low dishonorable blow. Curze displayed no superiority until they went down into the ground, and even then ADB has stated it was by no means a Curze wins moment, though you all choose to ignore him as you can't accept it. 




BlackGuard said:


> Yet, amongst all the so-called Traitor Legions, they alone stand pure, or about as pure as any traitor can. Save for the Alpha Legion, but who can really say what they have become?


Have you missed the part were members of the Night Lords have asceneded to become deamon princes?


----------



## DominusNox

I'd just like to say one thing to the people that keep on talking about a fair fight. it is 
40k guys! chaos! the term "fair fight" can only be used as a joke, or in case of eldar among themselves.


----------



## Chompy Bits

I've actually given up on this one. Continuing this argument is about as useful as becoming a glow-in-the-dark ninja. 

I just wanted to point something out though:



BlackGuard said:


> For Corax, it is simple. No matter what claims you heap upon the incident, the so-called 'independant factors' such as Corax having fought for so long and had to defeat Lorgar, it doesn't actually matter. Corax _fled_ from Night Haunter, thus proving the Night Lord's superior 'skill'.





BlackGuard said:


> For me, it is actually impressive. It shows Curze had intelligence. Bring to me a moment in history where deception and dishonorable tactics have not been used in the prosecution of a war. Kicking a guy when hes down means one thing -- he won't be getting back up to take revenge anytime soon.
> 
> Very impressive.


Dude, no offence, but this really isn't a very compelling argument. At all. Because I can then say, "oh, but Corax fled from *both* of them, realising that he was at a disadvantage fighting two on one. Thus, showing *his* intelligence and proving *his* superior 'skill'.

See, I can do it too.

And no one is saying Curze is a dumbass, or whatever. Nor that he's a shitty primarch. In fact, to me he is by far one of the most interesting ones of the lot. It's just that his feats doesn't warrant the pedestal some you guys seem to have placed him on.


----------



## Deadeye776

I think Curze is a badass and also extremely interesting. As a fan and having read all the books,your an idiot if you don't think he was a shitty primarch. As far as being a father to his legion and caring for them he says in no uncertain terms he doesn't even like his legion and doesn't care what they do after his death. You tell me if that's not a shitty primarch. I'm not saying he's not good in combat or a dark and mysterious figure,but if your in the military and your commander told you some shit like that I'd have shot his ass. Primarchs were supposed to be the example to follow and what the sons of the legion should aspire too. In the Haunters case he suffered from extreme mental illness. From memory loss to an uncaring and sullen presence. Primarchs were supposed to foster feelings of pride and motivation. His sons looked on him with pity and fear in equal measures. He's a tragic,bad ass, story of a man who saw too much and then wanted to see nothing again.


----------



## DominusNox

Night Haunter killed 2 honor guards + an assassin, probably unarmed. now even if he had his pretty claws terminators are not exactly easy to kill. how can he not be good at fighting?
Lion knocked Russ out, so we can say that they are equal. but then again, Luther almost killed Lion. Yes, chaos gods gave Luther tiny gifts, but Lion is a primarch!
how would Lion do against 2 honor guards and an assassin?

@ Deadeye776:
I'd love to explain my point of view, but this is not the right place


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

DominusNox said:


> Night Haunter killed 2 honor guards + an assassin, probably unarmed. now even if he had his pretty claws terminators are not exactly easy to kill. how can he not be good at fighting?
> Lion knocked Russ out, so we can say that they are equal. but then again, Luther almost killed Lion. Yes, chaos gods gave Luther tiny gifts, but Lion is a primarch!
> how would Lion do against 2 honor guards and an assassin?
> 
> @ Deadeye776:
> I'd love to explain my point of view, but this is not the right place


Any Primarch could have killed two honour guards and an assassin unarmed. Any Primarch could have also probably knocked out any other Primarch given the right circumstance. Also there are so many variables in the Lion/Luther confrontation that it is essentially irrelevant when it comes to this kind of discussion.


----------



## Angel of Blood

How do you figure Curze was so special because he defeated two honour guards and an assassin. Sanguinius killed a Bloodthirster, a pretty powerful one at that. Russ defeated Magnus. Fulgrim killed an Avatar and Ferrus Manus. Horus killed Sanguinius and damn near killed the Emperor. The Lion drew against Curze and even if you don't belive that, the Lion is going to beat Curze in the next fight according to ADB. Corax slaughtered the Gal Vorbek and would have killed Lorgar without Curzes intervention. Magnus killed a Titan. Alpharius(if it was him) slaughtered a squad of Lucifer Blacks, also elite honour guards. 

So why's Curze so special for killing two guards and an assassin. They hardly compare to the majority of the above.

You can hardly declare he's equal with Russ because of the Lion. The Lion knocked out Russ when Russ had given up on the fight


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus. Horus killed Sanguinius and damn near killed the Emperor.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also there are so many variables in the Lion/Luther, Fulgrim/Mannus, Horus/Sanguinus + Emperor confrontation that it is essentially irrelevant when it comes to this kind of discussion.


Edited CotE's response just a bit.

But in the confrontations mentioned, the variables essentially boil down to one thing. Horus and Fulgrim were Chaos Daemons/empowered at the time they confronted the aforementioned Primarchs/Emperor.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Edited CotE's response just a bit.
> 
> But in the confrontations mentioned, the variables essentially boil down to one thing. Horus and Fulgrim were Chaos Daemons/empowered at the time they confronted the aforementioned Primarchs/Emperor.


Indeed. 

But I would factor so many more variables in. Such as willingness to fight/kill and other emotional factors, where it occured, the timing of the confrontation, involvement of other individuals, as well as several confrontations involving Chaos empowered Primarchs or daemons themselves. Among many others.

To be honest, citing most of the aforementioned (throughout this thread) Primarch confrontations as evidence to claim "my Primarch is better than yours" was always going to be shaky at best, less than worthless at worst. For example just because Curze shooed Corax away in the middle of the Drop Site Massacre doesn't mean he could then beat X Primarch. Lorgar was a fanny pre-Isstvan? Okay, but he always had the potential to be just as strong and powerful as his brothers and becomes just that post-Isstvan. It would seem it was his mentality holding him back in this regard. There are justifications for all the Primarch confrontations that we know of, whoever seems to trump who in whatever confrontation does then not automatically mean X could then defeat Y.

So can't we all just agree that all the Primarchs were amazing, and that any Primarch could have defeated any other Primarch given the right circumstances and leave it at that? :angel:


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## Cowlicker16

I do agree that all were amazing in their own right but if we drop all topics on "How awesome is this primarch?" what WILL we talk about? more space marine vs threads?


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## Lux

After reassessing the combat between the two primarchs, I have come to the realization that the Lion is not superior to Curze in tactics, nor is he superior to Curze in Strategy. This is apparent by their half a decade long stalemate, in which each legion was unable to overcome the other in tactics, or overarching strategy. 

Furthermore I have also come to see that neither primarch is superior to one another in partial ability, each was able to wound the other and demonstrate that they could kill the other barring favorable circumstances.

It was not until the addition of a plot device that the Lion and his legion were able to gain a tactical advantage over the Night Lords, I look forward to seeing how the author balances out the story in the end.

The first part was relatively even, the second part tipped the scales into the Lion's favor, I am curious if the third will tip them back into balance or temporarily into the Night Lords favor then close the story with equality.


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## CJay

I have to believe the Lion would win. Dude is stone cold. 

Also no matter how awesome Curze seems these days, all I can think about is how he goes out like a bitch.


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## MEQinc

CJay said:


> Also no matter how awesome Curze seems these days, all I can think about is how he goes out like a bitch.


Really? He willingly and stoically faces down his own death, confident in the truth of his beliefs. That's how a bitch dies in your mind?

On the other hand Lion goes out pussying out and loosing a duel to his former mentor. That's Annakin Skywalker levels of bitch.


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## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> any Primarch could have defeated any other Primarch given the right circumstances and leave it at that?


I'm inclined to believe that in a duel, some primarchs would enjoy better odds over certain other primarchs. 

I watch MMA. Anything can happen. Anyone can knock anyone else out. However, there are times when two fighters are matched against each other, and the odds simply favour one fighter over the other by a considerable margin


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm inclined to believe that in a duel, some primarchs would enjoy better odds over certain other primarchs.
> 
> I watch MMA. Anything can happen. Anyone can knock anyone else out. However, there are times when two fighters are matched against each other, and the odds simply favour one fighter over the other by a considerable margin


Sure, but that doesn't challenge what I said.


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## Lux

Who is excited to see round 3 between the night haunter, the lion, guilliman, and mortarion?


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## Bearer.of.the.Word

In prince of crows it explains how the Lion completely destroys Curze, landing (I think) at least 12 mortal blows for nothing in return, its a bit like a pissed nut job with a broken bottle against a SBS ninja with a pixalated face. Only one way that can end.


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## Bearer.of.the.Word

CJay said:


> I have to believe the Lion would win. Dude is stone cold.
> 
> Also no matter how awesome Curze seems these days, all I can think about is how he goes out like a bitch.


'What is death compared to vindication' of all the dead primarchs Curze is the least bitchy, he accepted his death, he died to prove a point, all the others died trying not to. 
Curze is by far the most badass of the 19.


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## Khorne's Fist

In light of what we've seen in _Unremembered Empire_, I thought a necro of this thread was merited.



Curze ends up on Macragge after escaping the Lion's flag ship, and unleashes mayhem, taking out a shit ton of UMs and DAs, and even takes a chunk out of the Crimson Fist. He then goes on to fight the Lion and Guilliman at the same time, more than holding his own. With his precognition and ability to meld with shadows I'm beginning to think he might be the toughest nut of all the Emperor's sons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> In light of what we've seen in _Unremembered Empire_, I thought a necro of this thread was merited.
> 
> 
> 
> Curze ends up on Macragge after escaping the Lion's flag ship, and unleashes mayhem, taking out a shit ton of UMs and DAs, and even takes a chunk out of the Crimson Fist. He then goes on to fight the Lion and Guilliman at the same time, more than holding his own. With his precognition and ability to meld with shadows I'm beginning to think he might be the toughest nut of all the Emperor's sons.


The circumstances favoured him. 

I still maintain that, for all intents and purposes, the Primarchs are as good as equal.


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## Angel of Blood

Indeed



Without those bombs, Curze would have died.


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## Lux

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The circumstances favoured him.
> 
> I still maintain that, for all intents and purposes, the Primarchs are as good as equal.


I also hold the opinion that with Curze's ability to actively use his Precognition in combat, as well as his ability to actively turn into a shadow in the middle of combat, he is indeed the most lethal or one of the most lethal primarchs in direct combat.

Furthermore I hold the opinion that differs from yours Cote, in that if Curze had not used the bombs he would have outright killed Guilliman and the Lion in two versus one combat. Curze had inflicted far more lethal wounds on the Lion and Guilliman in their two versus one than they did on him, Curze nearly killed the Lion with a neck wound along with a plethora of other wounds.

Point being, when Curze isn't purposely trying to lose the fight and get himself killed (like he was doing against vulkan in Vulkan Lives), he can pretty much kill any other primarch in direct combat due to his precognition allowing him to forsee actively into the future what his opponent/opponents will do.


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## Angel of Blood

And yet despite all his precognition, The Lion managed to strike that initial low blow in their first fight, managed to damn near kill him in their second, held him at bay in their third fight. With it, he couldn't kill Polux, even with Dantiochs help, he still should have been able to kill him if his precognition is a good as you claim it is(an utterly unfounded claim I might add), It should have shown him that he could never kill Polux in fact. It also failed to stop him from getting wounded by Guilliman, who delivers two wounds on Curze that draw blood.

For that matter, I think you should read the fight again. He inflicts just one single wound on the Lion, where on earth did you manage to make up 'a plethora of other wounds', it's just one, the neck wound, and it's not even remotely mortal or troubling to the Lion, who steps back in to support Guilliman moments later, after Guilliman wounds Curze. He doesn't even draw blood on Guilliman, who strikes more blows to Curze, who only manages to strike a single hit on his chest, that only gouges the armour. 

So once again, you're making stuff up. He is at no point dominating that fight. He is holding his own, but at the count as of the end of the fight, Guilliman and the Lion only have the one wound between them, that doesn't even slow the Lion down. In return he has taken two wounds, one of which cut right through to the bone of his face. He then sets the grenades off, likely because he knows he isn't going to last that much longer.

And then, despite this infallible precognition you seem to think he has, he still doesn't see that he hasn't killed either of the two Primarchs, and then he doesn't see Vulkan coming either. Nor does it stop him from getting absolutely thrashed by by Vulkan in their final fight, when Vulkan isn't even close to his full ability, he utterly dominates Curze, who is then taken out of the fight by the deamon, something which once again, he doesn't see coming with his precognition.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Infallible precognition? The Night Haunter has no control over what he sees and it is extremely painful when he sees things. It is always the worst things to come that he sees. It's not a gift. It's a curse.


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## Lux

AOB I have explained several times already why Curze was not as potent during his previous fights as he was in this book, he wasn't trying to win.

It was explained in "Vulkan Lives' That Curze was purposely trying to get himself killed in order to escape the fate of his visions. It is why he purposely riled up Vulkan at the end, entered melee combat with him and just let himself get beat up, Vulkan stated it himself that Curze just wanted Vulkan to end his life.

In Unremembered Empire Curze had accepted the fate of his visions, he had accepted the darkness that surrounded him and leaped off into the great void he saw in his minds eye.

We have different opinions AOB, the first fight between Curze and Lion resulted in Curze winning as even when Lion had the first blow the fight ended with Curze strangling the Lion to death. Regardless of what could have happened, if the Lion had not received external assistance he would have likely died then and there.

The second fight ended in a loss for Curze, as the Lion put him into a coma.

The Third fight ended in a draw, as Curze and the Lion fought to a draw with neither over taking the other in combat abord the Lions flagship. Curze then retreated in order to save the lives of his sons, soon as he retreated they stopped fighting and thus stopped dying. Curze then managed to elude the Lion and his entire legion aboard his flagship for 18 weeks, in part due to his pre cognition and his ability to become a shadow that can move freely through shadows anywhere.

The fourth fight was Curze fighting Guilliman and the Lion simultaneously, Curze dances around both of them using his precognition which by this point Curze explains he has learned to tell which are the visions that will come true and which will not. He inflicts a tremendous amount of wounds onto the lion and Guilliman, including a near lethal neck wound to the Lion (the irony of what the lion prior did to Curze). Now If the explosives did not go off I hold the opinion that Curze would have killed both, because prior to the explosion Curze was destroying both of them and neither of them were showing any improvement during the course of the fight save for the Lion almost dying from being stabbed in the neck.

Why was Curze now able easily to fight off two primarchs, as well as fight off entire platoons of enemy astartes in enemy territory? Because as the book explained, Curze had now jumped off into the infinite darkness that always stood before him, and he also learned to accept his visions and to tell which would come true and which would not.

Thus with Curze's unmatched active precognition both in and out of fights, in conjunction with his ability to turn into a hyper sonic shadow that could move between any shadow in any two locations (IE melded into a shadow in one building, and instantly came out of a sliver of a shadow in Guilliman's mother's house) he was unmatched in combat.

Curze knew every outcome to every action that would kill him, thus he was manipulating fate by doing what was needed to bring the visions he wanted to come true, to actually come true.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> AOB I have explained several times already why Curze was not as potent during his previous fights as he was in this book, he wasn't trying to win.


Right, this is your own theory Lux, there is nothing to suggest this at all. Perhaps with the Vulkan fight, though I'd still like you to give me a direct quote, though I fully realise you have never provided a quote in your entire time on here. But there is nothing anywhere, that suggests he wasn't trying to win when he fought the Lion.



Lux said:


> We have different opinions AOB, the first fight between Curze and Lion resulted in Curze winning as even when Lion had the first blow the fight ended with Curze strangling the Lion to death. Regardless of what could have happened, if the Lion had not received external assistance he would have likely died then and there.


Massive emphasis on the '_likely_', you said there. I, like the author himself, say that anything could have happened, a Primarch can just recover from just about anything. Yes Curze was strangling him, but at any moment the Lion could have found something like a rock and bashed Curze in the head with it, or just tried to gouge his eyes out with this thumbs, anything. The point is, you cannot know for certain that he would have killed him. But regardless, this fight has been done to death and we will leave it at differing opinions.




Lux said:


> The fourth fight was Curze fighting Guilliman and the Lion simultaneously, Curze dances around both of them using his precognition which by this point Curze explains he has learned to tell which are the visions that will come true and which will not. He inflicts a tremendous amount of wounds onto the lion and Guilliman, including a near lethal neck wound to the Lion (the irony of what the lion prior did to Curze).


Again, read that fight again. He wounds the Lion _once_, just that one neck wound, and the Lion is right back in fighting within a few moments. Again, he doesn't draw blood on Guilliman, not once, only landing one slash on his chestplate, which doesn't even bother Guilliman in the slightest as he ripostes to rip Curzes face open. This comes after Guilliman has already wounded Curze. Read it again Lux, really read it, you will see that I am right. Find me a quote anywhere that says he did any more wounds than the Lions neck injury, which once again, doesn't even remotely remove him from the fight. Find me anywhere that says Curze inflicted a single wound on Guilliman. You won't find any. I have read it again and again to make sure I'm correct. You clearly have not, demonstrated like in every other discussion where you refuse to provide quotes or try and ignore what I have said.



Lux said:


> Now If the explosives did not go off I hold the opinion that Curze would have killed both, because prior to the explosion Curze was destroying both of them and neither of them were showing any improvement during the course of the fight save for the Lion almost dying from being stabbed in the neck.


Again, read above, one neck wound that doesn't even slow the Lion down does not qualify as 'destroying them', nor does it mean he almost killed him. By that logic, I could say Guilliman almost killed him when he tore his face open to expose bone.



Lux said:


> Why was Curze now able easily to fight off two primarchs, as well as fight off entire platoons of enemy astartes in enemy territory? Because as the book explained, Curze had now jumped off into the infinite darkness that always stood before him, and he also learned to accept his visions and to tell which would come true and which would not.


And yet, he still didn't see that he couldn't kill Polux, or that he didn't kill the Lion and Guilliman, rendering that vision false. Or that he never saw Vulkan in his visions, or that he couldn't stop himself from being pummeled by a deranged and crazed Vulkan at the end. Nor did he see that he would be taken into the warp by a deamon. Address these points.



Lux said:


> Thus with Curze's unmatched active precognition both in and out of fights, in conjunction with his ability to turn into a hyper sonic shadow that could move between any shadow in any two locations (IE melded into a shadow in one building, and instantly came out of a sliver of a shadow in Guilliman's mother's house) he was unmatched in combat.


Except he was matched. He took two wounds, the Lion took one and Guilliman none. The Wolves also manage to inflict two wounds on him, which still speaks volumes. Oh and once again, doesn't see Vulkan in his visions.



Lux said:


> Curze knew every outcome to every action that would kill him, thus he was manipulating fate by doing what was needed to bring the visions he wanted to come true, to actually come true.


Again Lux, this is your theory. Nothing suggests he was making his visions come true as some sort of ability. He was just getting better at reading them, and even then they were fallible, as evidenced by him not being able to kill Polux, thinking he had killed the Lion and Guilliman, not knowing about Vulkan, getting schooled by Vulkan in their final fight, not knowing Damon would release a deamon on him and so on and so forth.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Curze didn't have unmatched precognation abilities for fuck sake Lux! He was cursed with glimpses of the worst things to come, not some mother fucking precog out of minority report that sees it all coming in details. Sanguinius could do this, his was a gift and was clear. Curze would be in crippling pain and rave like a lunatic. He would only remember fragments of his visions and they would all be grim and violent.

He defiantly did not have unmatched precognitive ability in and out of combat as you have said. That is flat out wrong.


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## hailene

From _Soul Hunter_:

"Even [Curze's] visions were nebulous at times. Vague, he would say. Clouded. What right do you have to claim infallibility when even our gene-father’s, [Curze's], second sight was imperfect?”


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Thanks for that quote. Hardly unmatched precognation in and out of combat wouldn't you agree?


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## Lux

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Curze didn't have unmatched precognation abilities for fuck sake Lux! He was cursed with glimpses of the worst things to come, not some mother fucking precog out of minority report that sees it all coming in details. Sanguinius could do this, his was a gift and was clear. Curze would be in crippling pain and rave like a lunatic. He would only remember fragments of his visions and they would all be grim and violent.
> 
> He defiantly did not have unmatched precognitive ability in and out of combat as you have said. That is flat out wrong.


Unremembered empire made it quite clear Curze was using his precognition in and out of combat, it wasn't 100% accurate but the story also makes it very clear that Curze over time has been mastering his precognition to an extreme degree.

As for Sanguinus he did not have combat precognition such as Curze has displayed, Sanguinus had dreams/visions of far off events that would come to pass.

Curze was different, he was able to actively see the infinite amount of outcomes to the events that were before him in real time. He did not know which would 100% come to pass, but he was becoming so good at it it was becoming close enough to it.

Sanguinus would have visions/dreams off events in the future that would for sure come to pass, not see the infinite possibilities that lie before him in real time combat.


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## Lux

hailene said:


> From _Soul Hunter_:
> 
> "Even [Curze's] visions were nebulous at times. Vague, he would say. Clouded. What right do you have to claim infallibility when even our gene-father’s, [Curze's], second sight was imperfect?”


Refer to my prior post regarding his visions, that was in Soul Hunter of which in Unremembered empire it makes it quite clear he was becoming very close to mastering his precognition of knowing which oft he infinite possibilities before him would come to pass .


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Soul hunter happens after UE. So I'm guessing that his opinion is the more relevant one.

Go to bed Lux. Curze is waiting for you in your dreams.

(I mean, Kurze is my 2nd fav Primarch dude but come on, extract yourself from his dank emo asshole!)


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## Lux

Yet unremembered empire was written aftee soul hunter, thus the opinions of the astartes is inaccurate due to their ignorance.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Really? You are calling the opinion of the prophet Talos, one of the closest to the Night Haunter in multiple ways and one of if not his main confidant ignorant?

Your bellendery astounds me Lux. I'm out. I can't deal with that. Peace.


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## Lux

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Really? You are calling the opinion of the prophet Talos, one of the closest to the Night Haunter in multiple ways and one of if not his main confidant ignorant?
> 
> Your bellendery astounds me Lux. I'm out. I can't deal with that. Peace.


Curze was master of reality, in unremembered empire everything he did was purely in order to bring about the reality he desired out of all the infinite that stood before him. He purposely acted like the lion and Guilliman were dead in order to meet certain requirements of the reality he was trying to bring about, he was purposely acting in certain ways in order to influence which reality was coming to pass.

Why did he do this you ask? Because Curze saw that if he had truly killed the Lion and Guilliman then and there, all the realities that would follow that event would result in his death. Thus he had to leave them alive in order to enter the branch of potential realities that resulted in him escaping with his life.

Now do you understand?


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

I understand, your opinion. Do I agree? Not too sure. But I think I will leave this here as I don't see what I can say to adjust your view. Good day to you sir!


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## Phoebus

Lux said:


> After reassessing the combat between the two primarchs, I have come to the realization that the Lion is not superior to Curze in tactics, nor is he superior to Curze in Strategy. This is apparent by their half a decade long stalemate, in which each legion was unable to overcome the other in tactics, or overarching strategy.


Except that's not exactly what was described to us in 'Savage Weapons', 'The Lion', or 'Prince of Crows'.



> _'For twenty-six months I have chased him. For twenty-six months, he has fled from me, burning worlds before we arrive, crippling supply routes, annihilating Mechanicum outposts. Every ambush we plan, he slips from our fingers, wriggling away unseen.'_


The tactics of avoidance may very well be the best ones depending on your objective (in this case, to keep an entire Legion occupied), but they don't necessarily indicate _superiority._ The point being that, as long as there were more star systems than the Lion had starships to adequately secure and/or patrol, Curze and the Night Lords could operate more or less at their leisure.



> Furthermore I have also come to see that neither primarch is superior to one another in partial ability, each was able to wound the other and demonstrate that they could kill the other barring favorable circumstances.


I agree with this. There have been so many posts and statements by authors pointing to the pointlessness of trying to determine which Primarch is better at combat. It's subjective, and wholly dependent on the situation at hand.



CJay said:


> Also no matter how awesome Curze seems these days, all I can think about is how he goes out like a bitch.





MEQinc said:


> On the other hand Lion goes out pussying out and loosing a duel to his former mentor. That's Annakin Skywalker levels of bitch.


Grow up, both of you. :wink:

CJay, you don't have to admire Konrad Curze to recognize that he greeted death with open eyes and without fear.

MEQinc, as if we don't already have ample evidence of the fact that Chaos can make "mere mortals" a match for Primarchs. Or that a sufficiently well-planned ambush by even a squad of Space Marines could actually come close to slaying a Primarch!

*Angel of Blood* has covered me when it comes to precognition. And it goes without saying that I'm not involving myself in a debate centered on your more, ahem, philosophical ideas, Lux. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## Westhahl

Clearly Curze is not a very good at being psychic or he would have known Horus was going to lose that war. End debate.


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