# Opinion on blood talons.



## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

To me they look a little broken cause dreadnoughts are really good at close combat against infantry but we can a berserk dreadnought and ive done the maths with real dice and I managed to do 10 more wounds and kill a whole squad of thousand sons by doing that many wounds what do you think.


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## The Thunder of KayVaan (Jun 19, 2009)

As far as it goes within my gaming group, we only call them as "The hands of rape".

We agree that it will own anything that isn't AV 13 or Toughness 10 (which there is no model to my knowledge that has that)

Did you take into account that it can re-roll failed wounds as well as the extra dice for the raping isn't a re-roll that can also re-roll its failed to wound too?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

i did not ill have to do that later. btw there more like the CLAWS OF EXTREME RAPITUDE!


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

thney are bad ass and very much needed. In one resent game i kept a venrable dreandought held up for almsot the entire game (from the top of 2 to the bottom of 6) as he jsut couldn't kill that many chaos marines. Y i lost all upo 1 mand (the one with IOG) but my 200pts unit had did there job and poped a landriader all ready and now they kept the dread away from my thousand sons which i didn't want in combat at all.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Blenderhands is pretty neat but you lose your ability to hurt many vehicles, they're not broken as it's fairly straight forward to deal with assuming you have some sort of anti-tank weaponry in your army. 

Aramoro


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Well ive only recently gotten some of my Death Company list assembled ready for a tournament in 2 weeks but ive yet to use my Dread with Talons yet but ive done the math and the odds and seem to be rather killy of infantry unless you have horrible dice rolls.
But its not like its broken, since everything had a downside, maybe not deffrollas but still. In this case the weakness is anti tank barrages which will more than likley smach the dread to kingdom come.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Against Thousand Sons you get 4 attacks assuming you charge which will equate to 2/3 wounds which they will save half giving you 1/2 extra attacks. You should kill 2/3 Thousand Sons a round, it's not that deadly. 

I think people really over estimate just how dangerous Blender Hands is. Throw him against a horde of Boyz and you'll kill 7 or 8 of them which is great but then he's just stuck there for a while. 

Aramoro


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Against Thousand Sons you get 4 attacks assuming you charge which will equate to 2/3 wounds which they will save half giving you 1/2 extra attacks. You should kill 2/3 Thousand Sons a round, it's not that deadly.
> 
> I think people really over estimate just how dangerous Blender Hands is. Throw him against a horde of Boyz and you'll kill 7 or 8 of them which is great but then he's just stuck there for a while.
> 
> Aramoro


well intil the number drop down to below 10 and then the run way which would take 1-3 turns i would think. The sinple thing is they can't deal with armour and tho stronger than normal dread AV wise they still can't take much punishment. Alos there is currently no modal for lightning claws which means at the moment the number of people using them will go down untill a plastic Furiosos kit comes out with all 4 options (Death, Fist, Claw, Libby).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There are Forgeworld claws. The availability of a model has no baring on it's power though and it's really relevant at all. 

Aramoro


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> ive done the maths with real dice and I managed to do 10 more wounds and kill a whole squad of thousand sons


Rolling dice isn't doing the maths. This is doing the maths:

4 x 2/3 x 35/36 x 1/2 = 280/216 ~ 1.3

So one extra dig (it's wounds inflicted that gives extra digs innit?)

1 x 2/3 x 35/36 x 1/2 = 70/216 ~ 0.33

sooo, two-ish dead thousand sons. Very strange choice of target though.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I think people really over estimate just how dangerous Blender Hands is. Throw him against a horde of Boyz and you'll kill 7 or 8 of them which is great but then he's just stuck there for a while.


And then (assuming he caused a damaging hit with the power claw, not enough to destroy it) they take 6-7 armour saves from fearless wounds (which they fail). Next turn they do it again. That's most of a 30 man Ork squad dead in two combat rounds, next turn they'll break and run barring a lucky power claw hit (depending on how lucky you are with the talons, you might even break them on their turn).

And that's against more or less the worst possible target for him. When you play an army without horde units (such as CSM - Especially Nurgle based, or God forbid, Necrons) then it can rapidly eat far more than its points cost in elite infantry. Doubly true if it flies in first turn on a Storm Raven. I've seen it wipe entire 10-man power armoured squads off the board in one turn without difficulty. Depending on the models, that could be 200-350 points.

Yes, it has the usual weaknesses of a Dreadnought, i.e. AV12 and having to reach combat to be effective, but it's definitely one of the strongest units in the BA codex. If not THE strongest in terms of bang-for-buck.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Good old Blender Hands is AV13 not 12. 

I don't doubt he is strong and against non-mechanised forces he's very strong. But thats against non-mechanised forces so a bit of a moot point really. 

Aramoro


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

furisosos are. not death company.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Personally, I consider it to be a lot broken. No single model should have the possibility of outright killing (killing, not Sweeping Advance) 20 models. I know the odds are against it and yet I've lost a 20-man blob to one of these things. 


Kinda odd that they took a similar item out of the Chaos codex way back when even tho it was a weaker version. And their reason for taking it out? It was 'overpowered'.................... And this isn't?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> furisosos are. not death company.


No one should be taking Deathcompany Blenderhands anyway, Furious ones all the way. 

Blood Talon's aren't over powered, mearly very good. 

Aramoro


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Yet GW removed a similar ability from the Chaos codex because it was overpowered. Their words, not mine.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

death company have more attacks.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

They're in no way overpowered. In the Chaos Codex I believe it was possible to get all those attacks at a high str. as well(could be wrong, been a while) They're a lot of attacks yes but that's only good vs. infantry. Against vehicles they're much less effective. str. 6 is good but not reliable vs. vehicles, especially if they moved previously and you'd be an idiot to not move a vehicle with a dread that close by. Also there's the problem vs. small units. say you take out a 5 man marine squad in one turn, which is very easy with talons, you are now standing there with your side or rear armour facing something that will have no problem popping it. With fists you have a much better chance of killing off said 5 man in their turn so free shooting phase for the dread there. They have their downsides in being too effective too.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> death company have more attacks.


It has 1 more attack, Furious Charge, Fleet and the best named rule ever in None Shall Stay my Wrath!!! But Furioso's have more armour and dont have Rage so are just generally better. 

Aramoro


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

But furiosos have armour 10 at the back death company have armour 12.


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## The Thunder of KayVaan (Jun 19, 2009)

Doesn't matter, in Close combat walkers are always hit at front armour.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

And No anyway, both dreadnoughts have rear armour 10. Both have Side armour 12. The slight increase in WS between them would only matter vs. berzerkers or other high WS troops... So depending on what you're facing will depend on which one is better


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I don't doubt he is strong and against non-mechanised forces he's very strong. But thats against non-mechanised forces so a bit of a moot point really.
> 
> Aramoro


And the twin-linked Multi-Melta on his ride or the melta attack bikes or a variety of other things couldn't turn a mech unit into a non-mech unit in rather short order?

At some point, unless he's played badly, he will hit combat. And then he'll decimate anything without Storm Shields.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

sorry for the wrong stat I was using gw website.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sethis said:


> And the twin-linked Multi-Melta on his ride or the melta attack bikes or a variety of other things couldn't turn a mech unit into a non-mech unit in rather short order?
> 
> At some point, unless he's played badly, he will hit combat. And then he'll decimate anything without Storm Shields.


If we're playing Theory-hammer then the Storm Raven gets blown out of the sky by a Lascannon first turn and he wanders across the board at you. But I prefer to play actual games and in those he's good but pretty much always dies before making a serious impact. People know he's dangerous and play accordingly. 

Aramoro


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Lord Reevan said:


> They're in no way overpowered. In the Chaos Codex I believe it was possible to get all those attacks at a high str. as well(could be wrong, been a while)


Ax of Khorne. Power weapon that let you make an additional atack for any 'to hit' roll of a 6. No change in model's strength.

But that was too powerful..............................


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

All this talk of "Are Blood Talons good/overpowered?" assumes that Furioso/DC Dreadnoughts are worth taking in the first place.

I can see the case for a Furioso, but in order to even take a Death Company Dreadnought you have to have Death Company... and if you have Death Company you might as well just kill yourself right there.


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

I am with Katie on this one. they really should have provided Astorath the ability to make death company ignore Rage Movement. I mean they are super awesome in HtH but every army has a fast troop of some sort so they can play kiss chase with them all game long. I really wanted to build a 2500 point Army that fields 11 dreads but becasue of the Rage i wont be doing that anytime soon.


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

I love my blood talons I find them particular useful against large units but still can be used against MC and termy MEQ. I usually take a magna grapple with them or a heavy flamer to bring up the killyness. There only downside I would say is that they need long range fire support to stop those high STR weapons from blowing it up.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

don_mondo said:


> Ax of Khorne. Power weapon that let you make an additional atack for any 'to hit' roll of a 6. No change in model's strength.
> 
> But that was too powerful..............................


I personally never found that over powerful. And Talons are much better than that. It's a shame that chaos lost it. But as everyone knows the wargear options in the current codex for chaos are a complete shambles. 

If it makes any difference Dark eldar incubi have a similar rule where any wound of a 6 is another attack, and if the squad leader(cybarite??) gets a 6 every model in the unit gets an extra attack and these can stack. This is from very reliable sources anyway. So who knows it could become a regular thing in codices.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Lord Reevan said:


> I personally never found that over powerful. And Talons are much better than that. It's a shame that chaos lost it. But as everyone knows the wargear options in the current codex for chaos are a complete shambles.
> 
> If it makes any difference Dark eldar incubi have a similar rule where any wound of a 6 is another attack, and if the squad leader(cybarite??) gets a 6 every model in the unit gets an extra attack and these can stack. This is from very reliable sources anyway. So who knows it could become a regular thing in codices.


Well i hope it becomes a standard thing since BA have Talons (im assuming any following Marine dex will have these?) Wolves have JOTWW, Orks kinda have their Deffrollas, but i think the game needs something to wipe masses of men of the board other tha teplate weaponry, makes the game more interesting 

And regarding Astorath I totaly agree, i love the fluff so i run a Death Company list, yet Astorath aside from removing the 0-1 limit (still think that a single 30man squad is better so no really need for multiple) which i still quiestion it being all that good he does nothing good for DC since Lemates, Chaplins, Reculsiarchs all do what he can do but are better and cheaper than him. He is better fitted in a standerd BA list beause of his special rule regarding thirst, and even the he is a no because of better HQ options. So wityhout the removal of Rage he is just pointless.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm really hoping that Future SM codex's do not have Talons and Storm Ravens (Aprt from Grey Knights). They are Blood Angels specific equipment. 

Aramoro


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I'm really hoping that Future SM codex's do not have Talons and Storm Ravens (Aprt from Grey Knights). They are Blood Angels specific equipment.
> 
> Aramoro


Agreed, im planning on building 3 Storm Ravens for my Death Lances, and i liek the idea that despite it being in a Marine dex, it only belongs to BA and more than likely Grey Knights, it makes each Marine codex unique-ish.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> I'm really hoping that Future SM codex's do not have Talons and Storm Ravens (Aprt from Grey Knights). They are Blood Angels specific equipment.
> 
> Aramoro


Blood Talons, agreed. Storm Ravens, disagree.

Storm Ravens are an Imperium wide (or rather, Astrates wide) STC, as opposed to the BA specific Baal Predator and Fast Engines (And Fusio Dreads).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I think it would be pretty poor to make the Storm Raven available to all Chapters, just robs BA and Grey Knights of a bit of their unique nature. It does say other chapter would tend to use other means to achieve the same goal.

Aramoro


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> I think it would be pretty poor to make the Storm Raven available to all Chapters, just robs BA and Grey Knights of a bit of their unique nature. It does say other chapter would tend to use other means to achieve the same goal.
> 
> Aramoro


It also says they were issued to the armies of the Imperium 

BA already have more unique vehicles than any other chapter, Baals and Fusios, but then there is the fact they have modified all of their other vehicles. 

Meh, doesn't matter really, this is the Tactics forum, not really a place for a Fluff debate longer than what we've had


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