# Star Wars meets 40k!!!!!



## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok i was thinking last night as i watched star wars episode 3 and played soulstorm simultaniously what would happen if the Imperium and the Empire and or the Republic were to clash? like the Imperium during the Great Crusade and The Republic going head to head and the Imperium now going head to head with the Empire? how cool would that be? i mean shit talk about some huge fucking battles, especially Republic vs. Pre-Heresy Imperium. wow talk about brutal man. any thoughts on the matter? id personally like to see jedi go up against space marines, talk about one hell of a battle.


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## BloodAngelZeros

meh, I dunno about that. Would jedi light sabres just be like power weapons and "the force" be like psyker abilities? Given that there's no bolters and mostly lasers in star wars, I would think they'd get their butt kicked by the Imperium.......as long as we're not counting the Imperial guard here. Then it's kind of like guys with flashlights vs guys with flashlights and power weapons.


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## kungfoomasta

the clone troopers would basically be IG storm troopers with a cooler uniform. as for the jedi isnt the force manipulation of energy or something? im not really sure but definatly not the warp. lightsaber vrs marine armor meh power weapon.
heres how jedi stats would go with me
jedi knight 
ws-6 
bs-5 
s-3 
t-3 
w-2
i-6
ld-9 
sv-5+
attks-4
jedi master
ws-7
bs-6
s-3
t-3
w-3
i-7
ld-10
sv-4+
attks-5
both with a 6+ invloulrable save cus of their werid force shield or insand sences.... something like that
for shooting i was thinking they could throw thier lightsabers. 18in s-5 ap-2 -assault 2
these rules are just off the top of my head but you got me thinking now and how awesome it would be to see a jedi modle on the table surrounded by clone troopers being charged by marines. let the bloodshed begin!


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## loyalist42

I've gotta think the Imperium would wipe the floor. I mean, I'm just going by feel, mind, but the Imperium seems a whole hell of a lot bigger than the Republic. Could be wrong here, but the scales seem completely different between both sets of fluff. 

Oh, and Alpha-plus level psykers sound much, much more powerful than even the strongest Jedi...just something to consider.


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## T.R.get

im pretty sure no one in the republic had bullets that blow up aka bolters... lets see a light saber stop shrapnel


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## AzraelJahannam

I keep getting this image in my head of a jedi knight trying to take on a space marine Librarian... A few blows are exchanged.... Jedi speed being equaled by veil of time... until the Librarian get really angry and pops the Jedi's head with either the warp... or one of his bare hands...

But seriously... I'm not sure about the size of the empire vs size of the Imperium as I am no Star Wars buff, but when you watch the movie... doesn't a Space Marine Battle Barge look a hell of alot more intimidating than a Star Destroyer? And, those piddly little lasers on the faces of those ATAT Imperial war walkers seem pretty pathetic compared to the volcano cannon for example strapped to the arm of A raging metal war God (Titan anyone?). Not to mention the Imperium is constantly wracked by wars, its citizen base are crazy bastards to start out with, the imperial guard toughened by milenia of tireless combat, they already seem a match for crack Empire Storm Troopers, without brining in the space marines... and the sisters of battle... and what happens when the assassinorum is unleashed on the Empire?... how long would their leaders remain alive with Vindicares stealthily preparing to deal out an inglorious death from a balcony a kilometer away? Or callidus assassins within their midst? not to mention culexus... *shudder*. I can imagine the look on a jedi's face just before getting shot to pieces when he realizes that his force isn't working due to the eversor/random non-assassin trained untouchable a few meters away. And the inquisition..... I'm pretty sure they would make Palpatine sweat. And what of the death star? the destroyer of worlds? Well... Isn't exterminatus pretty 'normal' in the Imperium when a planet is beyond redemption? It doesn't blow up the world usually, no. But when the entire world is burnt to a crisp by firestorms and obliterated of all life by a hundred viral agents... I just get this image of a generally peaceful empire being speared right through by a diamond hard war weathered civilization that knows no peace... Hell, imagine the reaction of the Star Wars Empire when they meet the other kids on the block other than the Imperium... Want to see A storm trooper sh** itself? Show it a giant crimson armored Khorn Berzerker, chainaxe screaming, baying for blood and skulls... Bloodletters popping into existence... Or even the Dark eldar... their depraved minds dedicated to misery and torture... I think they would be packing up and moving a couple galaxies over after one peak at the orks.... And the Imperium is fighting against all of these every day, dieing, screaming, bleeding, struggling, and holding them back, a daily life struggle for an entire civilization... No... I do not believe it would be a war... The first few battles would be brutal... but from then on... it would be a rampaging slaughter... Broken men screaming and sh**ting themselves as they are lifted high, impaled on the ends of rending Eviscerators, high over the head of zealous, faith crazed Repentia, bathing in the blood and entrails raining upon their upturned rapturous faces. Men crying as they rock back and forth, clutching themselves as they weather precise and merciless Imperial artillery bombardments, only to meet their end on the bayonets of grim faced guardsmen who has seen the face of hell and lived to continue onwards, knowing they are just a fragment of trillions of others... hardened by the horrors of a universe of bloodshed. And annihilated by the armored angels of death who walk through the hail of laser fire like gods through rain, their mighty bolters singing praises to the emperor with every ear piercing shot, each mass-reactive round penetrating thin white armor like paper, detonating within fragile flesh to turn men into twitching piles of bloody flesh, only to be trod upon by the great soles of the pinnacles of mankind, running before the disciplined fire and the oh so implacable and expressionless helmets that bay forth challenge and praise to the Emperor. Before the relentless Imperial fleets... The numberless Guardsmen... The fear invoking and immense tanks... The zealous and fanatical Adeptus Sororitas... And the Fearless, superhuman elite Adeptus Astartes... They would fall...


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## BloodAngelZeros

kungfoomasta said:


> t as for the jedi isnt the force manipulation of energy or something? im not really sure but definatly not the warp.


Microscopic bacterium in the bloodstream called midochlorian (lol, robot chicken :grin: ) Nah, I was just making comparisons to say that the imperium has psykers that draw power from the warp, the equivalent thing for star wars would be the force.


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## AzraelJahannam

My guess is the medochlorians draw from the warp, then allow the organism to use it. I'm sure once the Imperium figures out how to grow cultures of it like the Republic failed to do they'll have a heyday making home-brewed psykers... Though 40K fluff seems to indicate it's an evolutionary advancement of the brain rather than fungus in the blood.


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## Druchii

I like the look of star destroyer's over battle barges.
Anyway completely different universe with different restrictions.


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## BloodAngelZeros

Yeah, the 40k fluff said that psykers emerged through mutations in human evolution. 

(heh, i just thought it was rather funny, i get a star wars costumes ad while viewing this thread)


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## Druchii

Im buying a storm trooper outfit.


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## ZsoSahaal

Star Wars would get dragged through the dirt by the Imperium. Or Chaos. Or the Tryranids. Or Tau. Maybe the Eldar. Definitely the Orks.

I mean star wars is great, but I've always thought of Warhammer 40k as a pumped-up, hardcore, steroid abusing, heavy metal version of Star Wars. 

Just think of 1 space marine vs. a Jedi. The jedi will do a back flip over the space marine, then get a chainsword right up his azz.


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## Carna

I think they'd be evenly matched...until the Space Marines turned up.


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## Druchii

Its stupid to compare. I mean anyone can make overpowered things. Just ignore the fact that most of the 40k stuff is god modding and alot of it is would be redundant in warfare..such as the baneblade.


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## Marcus Antonius Primus

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> ok i was thinking last night as i watched star wars episode 3 and played soulstorm simultaniously what would happen if the Imperium and the Empire and or the Republic were to clash? like the Imperium during the Great Crusade and The Republic going head to head and the Imperium now going head to head with the Empire? how cool would that be? i mean shit talk about some huge fucking battles, especially Republic vs. Pre-Heresy Imperium. wow talk about brutal man. any thoughts on the matter? id personally like to see jedi go up against space marines, talk about one hell of a battle.


It's never going to happen, Warhammer 40,000 is set in the future and Star Wars is set in the past "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."...


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## vorbis

AzraelJahannam, you scare me, your completely right but wow you really made sure i got the point.

i think it would be really kl to see a set battle between them and i imagine it would be really kl to see the jedi flipping everywhere dealing death to those flashlight wielding fools but remember that jedi are even rarer than space marines and one on one you gotta give the fight to the marines


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## Alaric

imperium for sure. they had primarchs in he great crusade. and aaaaa huge number of space marines. the imperium would win. although it would be epic!


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## Cato Sicarius

Lol Jedi vs Primarchs!:biggrin:

Imagine it happening during the Horus Heresy, Chaos would be at absolute power.


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## Silb

I think the republic would have a decent chance against the imperium. Sure, they would most likely lose, but the thing about both universes is that none of the characters have a set level of skills/strength. Space marines seem very powerful in fluff, but they're not nearly as strong on the tabletop. Meanwhile, jedi are sometimes shown doing very little damage and being killed rather easily while other times they are shown destroying massive armies, killing monster 100 times their size, and doing other insane things. Yoda could probably kill all of the primarchs easily, but one of those easily-killed backround character jedi could probably be killed by a 5-man space marine scout squad. 

Both armies have advantages and disadvantages. The Imperium has numbers and space marines, while the Republic has jedi and doesn't have 10 armies attacking them at once. If it was the Empire fighting against the Imperium, then the Imperium would likely lose, since the empire has like a dozen super weapons capable of destroying entire fleets/planets/solar systems.


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## Angel of Retribution

I don't think so...if SW and WH40k should meet, the empire would be squashed with ease (lets not forget stormtrooper accuracy or rather lack of) and the fact that every race in 40k is bred or at least entirelly used to war. Im sure space marines find it hard to sleep without the sound of bolters going off. The empire got its arse kicked by a bunch of rebels which was totally stupid, so them lasting against the marines or imperial guard or anyone else is nigh impossible. As for the rebellion or new republic all they got is luck and luck can't last against a few billion bolter rounds...

Go Marines!!!


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## thomas2

Silb said:


> Both armies have advantages and disadvantages. The Imperium has numbers and space marines, while the Republic has jedi and doesn't have 10 armies attacking them at once. If it was the Empire fighting against the Imperium, then the Imperium would likely lose, since the empire has like a dozen super weapons capable of destroying entire fleets/planets/solar systems.


The Imperium has hundreds of fleet destroying weapons. Heard of the Nova Cannon? It has an explosion bigger than our moon, around 5000 against 3474km. Goodbye Death Star... Anyway around a dozen planet destroyers? I know of the Death Stars, one destroyed, one unfinished then destroyed, so where are the other ten?


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## Silb

the other ten are from star wars books and comics and stuff (I just read a wikipedia page about them a few months ago). actually, they were all built at different times and were then blown up, usually by being sent crashing into a sun or having an override code used on them, so the empire could never use all of them at once. But one of them destroyed planets almost exactly like tyranids do, since it destroyed all of a planet's resources and then turned it into droids, ships, and sometimes even another copy of itself. Anyway, I should have worded my post differently. The empire probably wouldn't win, but they would have a better chance than the republic. both would actually have a larger chance of victory than you would think, but it's hard to tell because it is all but impossible to compare the two universes.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok i've been reading these posts so far and said nothing but now im going to step in. im a really big star wars fan, just as much as 40k, and believe me neither the Empire or the Republic are pussies as ive read from the posts so far. i do agree with those that say the Empire would lose, horribly, and this is becuase they simply do not have the resources of either the imperium or the republic. as for the republice need i remind everyone that there were NO stormtroopers their army was a bunch of clones that had elite stormtrooper status right when they hit the field of battle. the kaminoins were poppin these guys out in the millions. and then there's the confederation, nothing but bots guys they dont fear or hurt, another army that is being pumped out of factories all over the place. IF the Imperium were to meet that star wars era head to head i guarentee that the confederation and the republic would unite and quite truthfully be just as good if not better than the imperium. technology was not feared in star wars and need i remind everyone that they do have antigravity shit going on and that a lightsaber is NOT a power weapon thak you very much and would kill a space marine outright. that star wars era has way more technological advances than the imperium. as for the space battles looking cool doesnt mean shit. of all the 40k space battles ive heard the shields always get blown out after very few hits whereas starwars the shields are a bitch to get rid of AND there are different kinds of ships just like 40k that are specialized for different things. can you say death star laser that can kill a planet equipped on a large corellian republic cruiser? i can, instant death for ANY imperial ship to come that way AND on top of that they dont have to wait half a friggin hour to reload, it takes seconds at most. the amount of clones and droids that the republic could dish out would outnumber the amount of casualties tremendously and the weapons they carry arent horrible. a normal blaster round from a clone trooper or a droid is better than a lasrifle and would waste any guardsmen in its path. as for space marine legions thats another story. they arent invincible, the jedi order was GIGANTIC before palpatine took over and each was very powerful. yoda would not be killed he's just too damn good. on top of it even republic tanks have miny sheilds. do baneblades? no and the heavy beam cannons on each tank could rip through any imperial armor like paper. the clones are bred for battle and have no fear and extreme calm in any battlefield situation while the droids are....well droids and could manhandle a servitor. not the skiny droids but the super battle droids mind you. i think it would be very even. the space battles would most likely go to the republic while the ground battles would go either way. the imperium may have space marines and bolters but the republic has unending numbers in troops and not even space marines could hold up against thousands upon thousands upon thousands of blaster rounds. oh and we have wookies lol the empire would not fair so well they would most likely get their asses kicked to the curb. sorry darth but your screwed but as for master yoda and darth sidious they have put down their differences to kick some imperium ass. on a sidenote it has been mentioned in many star wars novels of the sith and jedi joining together because of a situation like this. ultimately my vote unfortunately would go to the Republic against both styles of Imperium, they have the government deal figured out perfectly they dont kill alien races cuz they arent human and that has added to much of their technology. So in my book Republic wins, im sorry for the long post but obviously im a big geek about star wars too so id thought i would eluminate you guys on why they arent the big pussies everyone thinks they are.


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## Carna

I thought Space Marines weren't into "Space Battles" per se, more like they'd charge into the ship, board and slaughter? If so, wouldn't the Imperium stand a better chance if its before the Heresy and there are thousands upon thousands of Space Marines and their technology is at their peak? If so, space battles could probably go either way.


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## AzraelJahannam

Just a couple little side points

- Shields in 40k get torn off fast BECAUSE their weapons are so frigging huge.

-The imperium can put shields on Super heavy tanks and is standard kit for titans.

-The Imperium has untold trillions of men to draw from, and is battle hardened from a millenia of warfare, It is one big battle baptized warrior, fighting off multiple threats at once, Star Wars mainly has to worry about only internal threats... and those throw it for a loop.

-how is a lightsaber not like/stronger than a power weapon?

-How is a blaster (which is just another laser weapon that seems to do the same amount of damage to flesh as a lasrifle: little burnt hole, hell Leia took one to the shoulder) stronger than a lasrifle?

-If a Jedi managed to block a bolter round, it would explode in his face, and the next one would deffineatly hit him while he's trying to pick his eyes up off the ground.

-I personally can't see Yoda kicking Librarian Tigurias's ass.

-Wookie, meet Ogryn... he doesn't use crossbows....

-Totalitarian Oligarchic government (Imperium) = faster and more efficient decision making

-Inquisitorial and Space Marine ships can crisp planets as well.

-Assassinorum

-If one is to choose the highpoint of Starwars society, then why not 40K? Great Cruisade and 20 Space Marine legions anyone? Not to mention Emperor (alive and well) and Horus on the same side? *Prospero burns out Yodas mind while trimming his fingernails with a Powersword*. Can the republic produce clones at a fast enough rate to stop 20 immense space marine legions each lead by a primarch, spearheaded by the Emperor, all of which are carving into the Republic like one giant implacable buzzsaw? (it is also notable that the Imperium was not scared of advancement at that time)


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## Marcus Antonius Primus

thomas2 said:


> The Imperium has hundreds of fleet destroying weapons. Heard of the Nova Cannon? It has an explosion bigger than our moon, around 5000 against 3474km. Goodbye Death Star... Anyway around a dozen planet destroyers? I know of the Death Stars, one destroyed, one unfinished then destroyed, so where are the other ten?


In the Dark Empire comics they've built the Galatic Canon which can fire missiles through hyperspace and blow planets from very far away.


Here are how Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000 are connected. Star Wars took place in a far away galaxy, the Sith were converted to Chaos (which they called the Dark Side) but were defeated. Then the Tyranids destroyed what survived the civil wars and the republic decided to send genetic materials in another galaxy through hyperspace (the warp). The material landed on Terra and a new humanity was given birth. The genetic descendants of Adam Skywalker became emperors and kings. In the future one of their descendants became aware of the force and used it to unite humanity. He became the emperor of mankind. But because this branch of humanity appeared later the galaxy was already colonised by older and powerful races. And without all records from the Jedi orders more force sensitive humans left for the Dark Side. All this knowledge is safely kept on Titan in the Codex Maditupus.

:crazy:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

thats exaclty what im trying to say about the clones and droids, they arent "battle hardened civilians" they are bred for war. that is their only purpose in life. im not saying the primarchs and their legions would get their asses handed to them all im saying is it would be pretty damn close and both sides would suffer massive casualties. ie a blaster round is not a laser it is a plasma round shot at high speeds, dont knock something down if you dont know the details. and the only reason leia took one in the shoulder is because it was a dumbed down version of what the clone troopers and droids used to use. the rifles the stormtroopers have are shit and they know it. as for yoda getting his ass kicked...eh i dont think tigurius would have it easy. the force is in essence like psychic powers and force lightning is just as powerful as anything tigurius could throw around, and yoda sucked that into his hand. i dont doubt that bolt rounds would not be able to be blocked because, like you said, they explode like grenades. both sides have ups and downs which is why it would be one hell of a fucking war. on a side note jedi are not as weak as people think. they have the ability to warp time, crush minds, increase their strength and amount of damage they can take and many others. as for the sith they can create shields made of the force around themselves making it almost impossible to kill them and they have force lightning, can drain the life out of someone from up close or far away, the sith are usually assassins and force choke and invisibility come in handy for that and all jedi and sith have the ability, if they train, to become "force ghosts" when they die. these are the actual jedi/sith but made completely of the force. their powers increase exponentially and they can still weild lightsabers and the like. oh and i forgot you cant kill them:biggrin:


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## horusundivided

i wonder how many favors the mechanicum would be willing to offer to Horus in exchange for... R2D2


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## Dirge Eterna

I'm convinced the Empire would blow the Imperium out of the water.

Stormtroopers use ion bolts, not laser beams. These melt metal and make things stop working, not heat up things to uncomfortably warm. In the fluff it takes 3-4 lasgun shots to stop a human. Star Wars blaster bolts take 1 minor hit, even with armor.

Star Wars is VASTLY more tech-savvy then the Imperium. A Victory-class cruiser could take down 3+ escorts without breaking a sweat. Titans and overwhelming manpower would be equated by low-orbit bombardment and the hightened Technology.

Space Marines are tough, but then again, so are most of the severe nasties in the SW universe. I'd say an SM is worth about 8 Clones.

The Jedi would completely kick ass, as the Imperium has NOTHING, besides warp abilities and massive guns (taken out by bombardments, see above) to stop them. Bolter rounds and shrapnel would be the prime arguements, but bolter rounds can be stopped by lightsabers (I would assume without going off, as they would instantly turn to gas), and force shields can protect against almost all shrapnel. And seeing as Warp abilities and Force powers are so evenly matched, I would assume 70-80% of the time the Jedi would win over the psyker, as they actually know what they're doing. 

And then there's the Death Star, the Eclipse-class Star Destroyers, the Super Star Destroyers, and the ever-popular LAAT gunship. Basically, every Stormtrooper is like a no-defenses Space Marine.


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## cobly

Star Wars setting has Ewoks. They dealt with the Empire and they can bring down the Imperium too! Don't underestimate teddy bears with spears!


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## Luciferi

thomas2 said:


> The Imperium has hundreds of fleet destroying weapons. Heard of the Nova Cannon? It has an explosion bigger than our moon


Where did you read about it having an explosion bigger than our moon?

As far as I'm aware it's just a "super" MAC Gun off the Halo series in an Imperial battleship, just not as good o___o


Keeping on topic. I personally think the imperium would win. I hardly think the high lords of Terra would just sit there watching the Imperium getting taken down like a bitch, and when you consider that they can call TRILLIONS of men and women to arms and get the Space Marines and Adeptus Mechanicus to help, I mean come on.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

so can the empire or the republic. each can call upon trillions of PEOPLE. butthe empire and republic are more tech savy and also have multiple alien species with different attributes to add to the mix too. it would be like the imperium being able to call upon the tau and eldar in a time of need. just read what dirge said about the empire, the republic is like that but with billions of more troops and machines.


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## thomas2

Luciferi said:


> Where did you read about it having an explosion bigger than our moon?


In BFG the scale for the space (NOT ships, they aren't to any scale.) is 1cm to 1000km. The blast marker for the Nova cannon has a diameter (distance across) of 5cm, leading to 5000km. The moons diameter is 3700 and something km. I just used the moon to give a vague idea of scale, as just saying 5000km doesn't really mean much to most people.


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## Angel of Retribution

Having xenos in teh empire/republic armies would just drive the imperium to mass slaughter. And the repubic at least is too concious to fight a war...they wanna help all the little civilians and protect planets and ideals, the imperium dont' give a monkeys, they'd roll through the SW galaxy like a bulldozer from hell. Although with all the ships from SW, space battle would be tight but land battles would be a cake walk for the imperium. The Jedi are the pinacle of the SW universe and yet even they have been brought to there knees...in SW episode 2, when the hundred or so jedi landed in the colosseum the battle droids cut their numbers down by continuous fire, only a handful survived til the clones got there, so imagine them against the SM. Then during the empires reign, the jedi were hunted by darth vader and slaughtered (assassinated) which is what an arm of the imperium specialises in (assassinorum or however you spell it) So there go the jedi. Clone troopers are less than SM as they are clones of a man, a strong man, but just a man. SM are genetic grandsons of the emperor...COME ON!!! 1 SM=7 CT, i dont think so, more like 1 SM=1000 CT. And all the imperium would have to do is viral bomb/nuke a few strategic planets and the empire/republic would be left a gibbering mess. 

Now don't get me wrong, i love Star Wars, i'm a huge fan, but to put SW against the imperium seems a little weak. They might put up a fight but eventually and surely they'd be defeated and forgotten as the imperium stormed off to find more enemies to slaughter.


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## Red Orc

Or, to put it another way, an Imperium with a psychic Emperor and loads of cloned troops with power armour and bolters and a massive fleet and the Imperial Army up against an Empire with a psychic Emperor and loads of cloned troops with power armour and plasma guns that don't blow up and a massive fleet (and possibly an Imperial Army too)?

Yeah, a walkover, mostly because there's only one Darth Vader but the Imperium can draw on thousands of Librarians.

On the other hand, the Empire has reliable FTL technology, so Imperial ships could go where they pleased while the Imperium's would keep getting lost in the Warp. And the Empire has a couple of Death Stars don't forget.

So the Empire could pitch up, destroy a planet and be away before you could say "call the Inquisition! we need virus bombs!"

I think Jango Fett is the Primarch of Legio XI by the way.

:cyclops among the pigeons:


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## AzraelJahannam

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> thats exaclty what im trying to say about the clones and droids, they arent "battle hardened civilians" they are bred for war. that is their only purpose in life. im not saying the primarchs and their legions would get their asses handed to them all im saying is it would be pretty damn close and both sides would suffer massive casualties. ie a blaster round is not a laser it is a plasma round shot at high speeds, dont knock something down if you dont know the details. and the only reason leia took one in the shoulder is because it was a dumbed down version of what the clone troopers and droids used to use. the rifles the stormtroopers have are shit and they know it. as for yoda getting his ass kicked...eh i dont think tigurius would have it easy. the force is in essence like psychic powers and force lightning is just as powerful as anything tigurius could throw around, and yoda sucked that into his hand. i dont doubt that bolt rounds would not be able to be blocked because, like you said, they explode like grenades. both sides have ups and downs which is why it would be one hell of a fucking war. on a side note jedi are not as weak as people think. they have the ability to warp time, crush minds, increase their strength and amount of damage they can take and many others. as for the sith they can create shields made of the force around themselves making it almost impossible to kill them and they have force lightning, can drain the life out of someone from up close or far away, the sith are usually assassins and force choke and invisibility come in handy for that and all jedi and sith have the ability, if they train, to become "force ghosts" when they die. these are the actual jedi/sith but made completely of the force. their powers increase exponentially and they can still weild lightsabers and the like. oh and i forgot you cant kill them:biggrin:


Imperial guardsman = only purpose in life is war

So Star Wars Imperial blasters suck like Imperial Guard las rifles, so basically the Imperial star wars are screwed against current Imperium, as they have no clones anymore as well. Old republic star wars have good blasters apparently then, which can kill a gungan with a well placed shot. So I am thinking bitchslaps guardsmen, but is still halted by marine armor for the most part, with the usual hitting joints, eyepieces, weaker armor points going through (in games terms, they get their armor save  ). They have loads of clones, but the imperium has loads of already trained, battle hardened people, trillions, and in the great crusade, a hell of a lot of marines, the pinnacle of marines, as they were not slightly debased like the ones now due to inferior technology. Now as for Jedi, it seems like Librarians are on par with them force/psychic wise, but martially, have the edge with their lightsaber equivalent force weapons being backed by all-round superhumanness not including what they can do with the warp, and the force being the only thing that makes jedi in any way superhuman. As for the few jedi who can make force ghosts out of themselves (and I say few because a hell of alot of jedi have died over the years in starwars, and there aren't loads of jedi ghosts running around) I would imagine since they are made of the force, the force/psychic can affect them, and an untouchable would turn them off like a lamplight just by being close (see culexus assassin), speaking of which, the imperium has a whole wing of its assinorum dedicated to essentially killing psykers, aka jedi. So current Imperium could very likely annihilate the Imperial Star Wars. old Republic would give the current Imperium a serious run for its money, I don't know which side would come out on top. And Great Crusade Imperium, well, it would just concentrate on ripping the heart out of the Old Republic, just like the current one, but with 20 space marine Legions, the Emperor, and at the height of its technology. It would just steamroll, no consolidation, no care for civilians, no care for own losses, it would just plow through, because the Imperium is, well, to put it bluntly, brutal. Corusant would just be annihilated. 20 legions of space marines. not just the loyalists, the one day to be chaos ones too. The Alpha Legion, the World Eaters, Thousand Sons... I love Star Wars, but I can't deny the fact that the Imperium would backhand it. 



Dirge Eterna said:


> Star Wars is VASTLY more tech-savvy then the Imperium. A Victory-class cruiser could take down 3+ escorts without breaking a sweat. Titans and overwhelming manpower would be equated by low-orbit bombardment and the hightened Technology.
> 
> Space Marines are tough, but then again, so are most of the severe nasties in the SW universe. I'd say an SM is worth about 8 Clones.
> 
> The Jedi would completely kick ass, as the Imperium has NOTHING, besides warp abilities and massive guns (taken out by bombardments, see above) to stop them. Bolter rounds and shrapnel would be the prime arguements, but bolter rounds can be stopped by lightsabers (I would assume without going off, as they would instantly turn to gas), and force shields can protect against almost all shrapnel. And seeing as Warp abilities and Force powers are so evenly matched, I would assume 70-80% of the time the Jedi would win over the psyker, as they actually know what they're doing.
> 
> And then there's the Death Star, the Eclipse-class Star Destroyers, the Super Star Destroyers, and the ever-popular LAAT gunship. Basically, every Stormtrooper is like a no-defenses Space Marine.


-firstly, explain why the starwars ships are so vastly superior to Imperial

-Secondly, the lightsaber would detonate the bolter round before incinerating it, thereby throwing shrapnel in the jedis face, thereby incapacitating it, and the round would be within the force shield for Jedi to be able to counter it.

-Thirdly, in regard to a Jedi beating a psyker because it knows what it's doing... uhhhh... You do know what a Librarian is right?

-The Imperium has Apocalypse class Battleships, and Space Marine Battle Barges. 

-Storm troopers do not have a second heart, a third lung, blood that clots almost instantly, superhuman reflexes, an incredibly advanced brain, carapace under their skin, increased skeletal and muscular growth, and a 24/7 constant combat efficiency(unlike the clones, marines don't need to sleep).


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## arhain

> firstly, explain why the starwars ships are so vastly superior to Imperial


star wars even their fighters can "warp" so of course their captial ships are better


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## AzraelJahannam

arhain said:


> star wars even their fighters can "warp" so of course their captial ships are better


Alright, so they can all warp, but I was thinking more along the lines of why would one think for example that an Apocalypse class Battleship couldn't turn a Super Star Destroyer into a burning hulk with one shot of its nova cannon? or rather... a whole flotilla of them...


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## Druchii

Lol at people who are actually debating this..


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## RazikTheDevourer

pfft Star Wars
I'd kick Yoda into a soccer goal.
pfft Star Wars

Laser pistols from star wars, lol even i can dodge them slow moving beams
like to see a Jedi Dodge a 50calibre round


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## Red Orc

BTW, what's the effective range of a Star Wars blaster? Any ideas? Coz a Bolt Gun only fires about 50 yards, so probably the best thing for Imperial Stormtroopers to do is stand, oooh, 60 yards away, and take the Space Marines out with massed plasma-equivalent (but with better range and no 'gets hot' rule) fire.

Just a thought.

:enjoying himself immensely cyclops:


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## Angel of Retribution

arhain said:


> star wars even their fighters can "warp" so of course their captial ships are better


Not all fighters in SW are capable of "warp" many are only short range craft that rely on a "mother ship"...
and so what if all SW ships could "warp" what they gonna do run forever? They'd have to stop and fight sometime and when they do *dun dun duuun*


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## daemonhammer

Do you know what would kick ass NEO who cares if he has nothing to do with 40k or SW


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## Dessel_Ordo

first off, you all tout the jedi as the pinacle of the force... no
a true Sith Lord (Darth Bane, Darth Revand or Malak, Exar Kun, ect ect ect) kicks the living sh!t out of any and every jedi you can name. Bane trapped the souls of 100 extremely powerful jedi in a sphere of dark side energy, for all eternity, making the entire planet a focus of dark side power in the process.

of the very few force users powerful to become force ghosts, there is only 1 I know of that could affect reality, and that was Exar Kun, a sith.

Next, Lea lived because she got hit by a stun bolt. which is specially calibrated to knock your bich a$$ down without killing you.

The Clones werent as numerous as you think, there were alot, and each clone is worth about 5 to 10 guardsmen, and a Space marine 8 to 12 clones before being brought down by concentrated blaster fire. SBD's are slightly inferior to clones.

If you really want the toughest SW army, that would be the mandalorians. 2 Mando Crusaders or Neo-Crusaders would equal a space marine (Mandalorians are the Star Wars equivalent of Spartans, for those of you without the knowhow in star wars)

The most powerful Star Wars has been would be the Galactic Alliance about 2 months before the sh!t hit the fan again.
This is because 1) they had recently been through 5 years of 40k style warfare, and had just finished re-building, there was a LARGE group of battle ready Mandalorians who had a tradeshare/mutual protection deal with the best technicians in the Star Wars universe (a squad of Mandalorian Bes'Ulik fighters is worth a decent, destroyer sized 40k ship, as the armour on the Bes'Ulik is equivalent to that of an Imperial II star destroyer and then some, it has amazing sheilds, stealth technology and capitol ship killing missiles). In the era for SW I mentioned you also have the YVH combat droids, which have 'Cron like regeneration abilities, variable output Blasters theat can punch massive holes through top-end armour, or rapid fire at a rate that would make assault cannons look slow (granted, the power there is like that of a lasgun) these droids also have Miniature Missile Launcher systes (single shot boltgus, 50 shots loaded on the droid) or an elextro ray (tank killer/nervous system frier) and grenades that put the best in 40k to shame. These were mass produced, and when they were beyond repair in combat, they would self destruct with a blast that could take down a frigate sized vessel.

so imho, space battles are equal for Great Crusade v. Galactic Alliance (other starship advancements were made here, didnt want to spam out how/why they could match 40k vessels, but if need be I will)
GC vs Empire or republic, edge goes to GC tho
current 40K v. GA in space, equal, edge to GA due to techno degredation

Land Combat is tricky tho...
With REAL sith to balance/obliterate psykers, Mandolorians and YVH droids in sufficient numbers to match Marines (not enough mandos to cover whole war effectively as there arent as many Mandos as there were Marines, but they could hold a few key points if used right) of course then you would have troopers who are about on par with guardsmen and a serius numerical advantage going to the GC at the theatres where Mandos arent Present
With Jedi, 1) no Mandos, the two groups dont get along, 2) a distincive care for innocents comes into play, 3) you now have regular troopers (guardsmaan like) 4) in the right era, you would get the YVH droids and Boba Fett willing to _tolerate_ Jedi until the crisis abated (it wouldnt, the jedi would lose the war via compassion)

so if the eras ligned up right, it would be an amazingly epic clash of titanic military powers, and could go wither way. However, I dont know the quality of the sith in the Galactic Alliances era, or how willing to team up with the GA they would be.
If you dont get a proper era lign up tho, Imperium kicks SW's candy a$$, hands down.


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## daemonhammer

I do agree with you ordo about the sith especially seeing as they can manipulate the force greater than the jedi but in the period that they are discussing the sith are only two in number seeing how darth bane commited them to secrecy. Also how are mandolorians like space marines they were massacred and only jango survived against a jedi force half the size of theirs. Also librarians are no problem just pop down a force bomb and run any psyker within 5 miles will go bi bi


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## Captain Galus

> And annihilated by the armored angels of death who walk through the hail of laser fire like gods through rain, their mighty bolters singing praises to the emperor with every ear piercing shot, each mass-reactive round penetrating thin white armor like paper, detonating within fragile flesh to turn men into twitching piles of bloody flesh, only to be trod upon by the great soles of the pinnacles of mankind, running before the disciplined fire and the oh so implacable and expressionless helmets that bay forth challenge and praise to the Emperor. Before the relentless Imperial fleets... The numberless Guardsmen... The fear invoking and immense tanks... The zealous and fanatical Adeptus Sororitas... And the Fearless, superhuman elite Adeptus Astartes... They would fall...


that gave me goosebumps...Long Live the Imperium!


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## Angel of Retribution

Well in SW there is hope, although the empire fights to maintain power, the rebels fight for ideals. In 40k there is no hope all fighting is simply for survival, the most base instinct of every creature alive and an extremely effective fighting tool...


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## Dessel_Ordo

The Mandos werent slaughtered, they scattered, a good 15 years after ROTJ, Boba is Mand'alor (ruler of the Mandalorians) and decides that their homeworld is in need of attention... so Boba just told some of his mando buddies to tell their buddies (and so on and so forth) that Mand'alor wats everyone back on Mandalore (Mando homeworld) within 3 months or so something like 500k had returned... by the end of the most recent book, even more had returned home, and there was still no noticable slowdown...

You cannot "slaughter" mandalorians, they are expert tacticians who will realize they have been beat, then scatter, in fact during most of the star wars, well, anything from KOTOR to the 2nd book in the most recent series, they had been scattered like this, reproducing, adopting (they are chronic adopters, any human/humanoid who has the skill/mannerisms of a Mando and is without any real family to speak of who runs accross a Mando is likely to be adopted into that Mando's clan, no questions asked really after loyalty has been proven). With the strength of Beskar'Gam (mando body armour, Crusader, Neo-Crusader or Katarn (Boba & Jango have this varient, ep 3 clone armour and stormy armour are made to look like it) is about as tough as power armour (takes heavy ordanance, sniper or AP fire to get through anything but the weak spots) plus has several built in weapon systems and tools of war (they only show about 2/5ths of the systems on Bobas armour in the movies) and sensors, a mando never looks over his shoulder because his helmet can do that for him... he just brings up a pop-up of whats behind him.

however, in order for SW to stand a snowballs chance in hell against the Imperium, they would need Bane at the helm, Bobas Mandalorians (as of most recent book) YVH war droids, Galactic Alliance (jsut before the sh!t hits the fan in newest books) fleets, and Clone Troopers for cannon fodder...
the tech/people just dont line up, in any Star Wars Era the resources just arent present to survive being attacked by the Imperium, Imperium would crush any era of Star Wars (unless time travel was possible, whitch it isnt)


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## Angel of Retribution

The old republic couldn't hold off the imperium; after their fight with exar kun and the sith wars, they had no resources and would be buggered against the imperium. And while the new republic has resources, it wouldn't know how to handle them and would be crushed quickly. The only real hope would be the empire but after being slapped around by under-funded and poorly trained rebels and teddy bears with sticks, well you get the picture...there is no hope for SW when 40k conquers all...


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## Ljohnson

uh, way to in depth and deep.:biggrin:

lots of thought went into these. Vote for Imperium. Only because Teddy Bears kicked the Empire's A**.:victory:


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## Unknown Primarch

how would a blackstone fortress stand up against say the deathstar

and what about vader vs. lucius the eternal in a sword fight


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## Dessel_Ordo

Vader is actually one of the weaker Sith Lords, better then most "Sith Order" Lords (only because any time there are more then 2 Sith the power of the Dark Side gets too spread out for serious power acclimation in one being); granted, he is of Banes line of Sith... but Vader and Palpatine killed that line. So Lucious would prob. win.

Now Kas'Im (Darth Banes master (for lightsaber useage at least)) would be equal to or maybe a little better than Lucious... as he couldnt be beat in hand to hand combat... someone had to drop a 50000 ton stane temple on his ass to kill him.

Dont know how a Death Star would do against a Blackstone tho


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## Wraithian

So... if Vader killed Lucius... Say in, what, two weeks? We'd have Lucius with a light saber, eh?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

totally forgot about the mandalorians. those guys are hard fucking core


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## Daneel2.0

Love the idea. There are some real problems merging 2 universes though. For the sake of argument (even though the two are *totally* different) lets just say that psychics and force use is the same (although I don't know of any jedi suffering from a perils check:laugh. Second, I'm going to deal with the Empire specifically since it was mentioned in the opening thread first.

The first thing to note is that the 40K Imperium doesn't control the entire Galaxy. The SW Imperials did (for the most part). This gives them a population many times larger than the 40K Imperium's. And there are some hard core battle hardened troops in both worlds. It's almost impossible to compare the numbers though, since I don't know if there was ever a source for SW that gave any indication of total men under arms.

As for technology, this goes hands down to the SW Empire. Not even a contest. 

In space the 40K Imperium loses badly every time. Look at the Executor (vader's star destroyer in the 2nd, or 5th depending on how you count, movie). 1000 weapon systems, 250,000 man crew, 25 AT-ATs , 50 AT-STs, an entire corp of Strom Troopers, 3 complete mobile garrisons 200 other ships that dock (including Lambda class shuttles, landing craft and 12 squadrons of TIE fighters, 12 squadrons of interceptors and 12 squadrons of bombers. This single ship could destroy any fleet I've ever seen assembled in 40K. And that doesn't take into consideration that it flew with multiple Victory class Star Destroyers, escort ships (1 of which could pull you out of "warp") and fighters. It just isn't a contest here. Compare it to a Apocalypse Class Battleship that has 4 turrets a dorsal weapon battery and the Dorsal Vulcan gun which, while creating a large blast marker, doesn't hit very hard by comparison. It can cover an area as wide as a moon which is handy since the Star Destroyer is the size of a moon 

Which *still* doesn't take into consideration ships like the Sun Crusher which is a 1 man fighter with a resonance torpedo launcher and 11 resonance torpedoes capable of killing off an entire star system in a single blow. That's 1 fighter, 11 suns go super nova (oh and it could fly *through* your battleship if it got in the way). Add weapons that fire from systems away through the warp and ships that stealth so well they could fly park on your sensor array and you have a whole new level of lovin' in 40K.

On the ground, things reverse though. I'm of the opinion that most Storm Troopers are only slightly better than IG. I'd even go as high as 1 to 3 ST to IG. Even adding Fett's people (and they are legion), on the ground the difference is just as telling as in the air only the other way around.

All told, it's a tough call. Palpitine was a ruthless SOB so he'd probably just send Sun crusher at Sol and have done with it 

:angel:

EDIT: Stupid spelling


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## PieMan

imperium...no challenge

the republics minds would be completely scrwed up if they met chaos...or were captured by dark eldar


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## vorbis

are we just talking about imperium vs or the whole 40k universe vs?


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## Daneel2.0

My understanding of the thread was just 40K Imperium vs. Starwars Empire (or Republic Era)


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## Beaky

the blackstone fortress would beat a death star. the blackstones where forged by gods to fight gods and have since got better chaos-style.
don't forget that the imperium has over 1,000,000 space marines as well ('cos there is about a thousand chapters each with 1,000 SM in it, and some chapters have at least 2,000 SM in it (e.g. Black Templars))

and if the other races joined in:
-the eldar would zoom in, shoot everything that moves with a prism cannon, retreat, shoot a bit more, teleport to the other side of the battlefield, shoot a bit more, and then teleport away, leaving a lot of devastation. repeat everywhere else.
-the tau would simply point a heavy railgun at the o-so-mighty executer, pull the trigger, watch as his 500 or so mates also onboard his spaceship do the same, and watch the executor explode in a ball of flame.
-the orks would all see a good fight in the offing and come down in a green tide of doom.
-the chaos gods would watch as their greater daemons rip the enemy apart.
-the necrons would pull the trigger on a gauss cannon and watch the deathstar go bye-bye, while the nightbringer phases out of reality, comes to the enemy, with all their much-vaunted lasers and plasma gun shots pass right threw him, then he starts chopping them to bits with his big sythe of doom.

i wonder who will win?


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## Red Orc

OK, but _none_ of those forces have any reason to fight on behalf of the Imperium. Why wouldn't they do that for the Empire? It doesn't make sense.

:confused cyclops:


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## AzraelJahannam

I could see Eldar joining with the Imperium possibly against an unknown extragalactical threat, though thats iffy. 

Tau would probably just have a big O at the thought of so many people to convert to the greater good and would just start preaching at them untill they got clone swarmed.

 Though I could maybe see Commissar Yarrick telling his old sparring buddy Ghazghkull that theres even more Armor Geddin at Corrussant than Armageddon, eheh. WHHAAAAGGGGHHH. 'Nuff Said


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## Beaky

Red Orc, i'm just saying the 40k galaxy vs. the star wars galaxy, allies are irellevant, none of the forces above would be allies, they'd all simply fight the Star Wars galaxy, and then get back to duffing each other up.


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## Daneel2.0

Railguns are fun said:


> the blackstone fortress would beat a death star. the blackstones where forged by gods to fight gods and have since got better chaos-style.


This was specifically about SW Empire vs. 40K Imperium so I don't see where the other races are coming from. But if you insist . . . .

There were 6 blackstones during the Gothic Campaign. Deceiver arraigned for Abbadon to gain control of 2 Eldar artifacts allowing him to reactivate the fortresses. By the end of the campaign, Only 2 existed (3 to Abbadon, 1 reclaimed, all 4 in imperial control simultaneously disintegrated, Abbadon escaped into Eye of Terror with 2)

After that escape 1 more was destroyed by Necron Raiders during Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade. 

So there is only 1 remaining Blackstone Fortress and it is in possession of Abbadon. It is important to note that only through the combined power of 2 could he destroy a planet. The Death Star could do that by itself. Conclusion - Blackstone Fortresses not more powerful than Death Star.



Railguns are fun said:


> don't forget that the imperium has over 1,000,000 space marines as well ('cos there is about a thousand chapters each with 1,000 SM in it, and some chapters have at least 2,000 SM in it (e.g. Black Templars))


I know. This is one of the reasons I think 40K Imperium wins the ground war.



Railguns are fun said:


> and if the other races joined in:
> -the eldar would zoom in, shoot everything that moves with a prism cannon, retreat, shoot a bit more, teleport to the other side of the battlefield, shoot a bit more, and then teleport away, leaving a lot of devastation. repeat everywhere else.


Eldar don't join in fights between Humans and other Humans unless there is something for them to gain (like on side is Choas). From their perspective, nothing could be better than for both sides to fight a war of annihilation destroying all humans across the galaxy.



Railguns are fun said:


> -the tau would simply point a heavy railgun at the o-so-mighty executer, pull the trigger, watch as his 500 or so mates also onboard his spaceship do the same, and watch the executor explode in a ball of flame.


They would never get in range to pull the trigger in the first place. Tau aren't in Imperium Space since they can't travel the warp. Besides, they have bigger problems that humans fighting humans considering the Ork and Tyranid threats right on their borders. If a Tau Battleship ever did get in range of the Executor, it would be destroyed by Turbolaser fire long before getting in Railgun range. Remember, railguns fire at a fraction of the speed of light, lasers fire at the speed of light. To hit w/ railguns you have to be close (relatively speaking) since the projectile is detectable. If you aren't close the ship just alters its course a little and moves out of the way. With a laser, it hits you as you detect it fire(speed of light remember, and SW battleships don't have long power up sequences)



Railguns are fun said:


> -the orks would all see a good fight in the offing and come down in a green tide of doom.


Orks do love a good fight and would fight both sides indiscriminately. Advantage - nobody.



Railguns are fun said:


> -the chaos gods would watch as their greater daemons rip the enemy apart.


Chaos's goals are the same as always and wouldn't be directed at the SW Empire any more, and quite probably much less, than anywhere else. They would take advantage where they saw it.



Railguns are fun said:


> -the necrons would pull the trigger on a gauss cannon and watch the deathstar go bye-bye, while the nightbringer phases out of reality, comes to the enemy, with all their much-vaunted lasers and plasma gun shots pass right threw him, then he starts chopping them to bits with his big sythe of doom.
> 
> i wonder who will win?


Same with Necron as was with Chaos. They would take advantage where they saw it. But it would be to the detriment of 40K Imperials certainly.


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## Red Orc

Railguns are fun said:


> Red Orc, i'm just saying the 40k galaxy vs. the star wars galaxy, allies are irellevant, none of the forces above would be allies, they'd all simply fight the Star Wars galaxy, and then get back to duffing each other up.


Well, I'm not so sure.

The original question was "Empire v Imperium" not "everything in Star Wars against everything in 40k", but even so, as you brought in everything from 40k, I'm gonna play with that (and everything from Star Wars that I know about too).

Sith = Chaos. I know chaos fights other chaos, but I can't see why (at least some of) the Chaos warbands wouldn't join the Empire straight away. so that would be Imperium v Empire & Chaos.

Also, unlike the Imperium, the Empire isn't notably racist. It may not exactly _love_ non-humans, but it doesn't slaughter them out of hand either. That would be a powerful factor in bringing any of the 40k xenos races to the side of the Empire.

If it was the Republic, or the Rebel Alliance, those are distinctly _not_ racist. I see no reason why the Tau wouldn't join the Republic (especially as they would then have access to _safe_ FTL travel); the Eldar might not, the Orks probably wouldn't, but either could easily join the Alliance.

But in the end, the trouble is there are very few direct parallels to make a comparison between. Is SM power armour as good, better or not as good as ST power armour? Are ST blasters as good, better or not as good as IG lasrifles? Plasma guns? Sunrifles? Who knows? How many men under arms does the Empire have? How big is the Fleet? We just don't know.

"Could Mephiston take Darth Vader?" is my fave way of looking at at the moment...

:in a galaxy far far away cyclops:


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## Autarch of Bahls

supposing you dropped a super-star-destroyer on the holy throne on Terra:fuck:, would that send the Imperium into feudalism?


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## Dessel_Ordo

In most recent major war for SW, the Galactic Alliance lost an estimated 365 TRILLION beings, thats soldgeirs, innocents, everything...

and the GA kept on going...

sad, but they didnt notice the losses too bad.

so, numerically SW is probbably bigger


Killing Emp. would prob break the Imperiums back:fuck:


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## Autarch of Bahls

Wanna see an SM shit himself? imagine a massive nfleet of assorted star destroyers cutting through the douche ships of the imperium and then landing on the Golden Throne. "wait, what? what are they planning, HOLY SHIT! NO NOT THE EMPEROR!" and BOOM! :shok::shok::no:uke:


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## Autarch of Bahls

and FYI dessel, the death of Emp. would kill their morale. they wouldn't be able to say, "for the emperor!" when they charged into battle anymore; they'd have to say "For the Melted-Down-Crispy-Pyramid-Of-No-Goodnicks!"


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## Autarch of Bahls

would that get you pumped?! WOULD IT?!?!?!? I.:threaten: THINK.:victory: NOT:scare:!!!!!!!!


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## Autarch of Bahls

Eldrad could equal any jedi or sith. or surpass them even... so nyaah!!:fuck:


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## Angel of Retribution

Killing the emperor would only piss the SM off. They can function perfectly well without him and they would fight to avenge his loss. And although i give the empire advantage in space, a ground war would seal their fate. All the Sm would have to do is spearhead an assault into the centre of a few strategic planets and the empire would cry. Sure they could destroy the planet but thats like cutting your own hands and feet off. Ultimatley the empire would lose because although a naval and air force is important it is the ground troops that win wars. Only they can hold planets and because the empire's ground forces are weak the Imperium would win. All the imperium would have to do is send important, main characters into the fray, we all know that grouped stormtroopers can't hit main characters if their lives depended on it (the stormtrooper effect)...

Oh and the empire did not rule the whole galaxy. The outer rim was not under his thumb and the galaxy in SW was far from explored as that was a treacherous proffession, they stuck to the safe trade routes and such. And besides of all the planets that the empire controlled, how many were allied with the rebellion and would gladly be rid of empire control at the slightest sniff of victory?....Palpatine was a bitch, he was too concerned with becoming more powerful that he didn't give a monkeys about the growing rebellion until it was too late. If he could be whipped by the rebellion and a planet of ewoks (come on how lame is an army of tiny toys! Set the jungles on fire and watch the furballs burn.) then he couldn't fight an army of foaming at the mouth men in power suits with big guns and bad tempers.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i think truthfully the eldar and jedi would get along. i mean its not like every friggin jedi is a human and even then they hold many tenents that the eldar do, at least the farseers. i could see eldrad and yoda getting along perfectly fine.


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## Angel of Retribution

I don't think so because the eldar would distrust the jedi (and their absurd code) seeing them as walking a thin line between righteousness and chaos aka the Sith, much like humans of the Imperium. Maybe they would like a few jedi like Yoda but the eldar would be cautious and weary as they are by nature.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i still think the empire would win. you cant win land battles if you cant land the troops and you need ships for that people. AND any imperial fleet that did manage to send off thunderhawks and drop pods would be disintegrated leaving the ground forces vulnerable to air attacks. also the ground to air defences in SW are much more superior just by nature of the tech and very few ships would make it to the surface unless they landed miles away and by that time the planet's defenders would have already had more than enough time to prepare.


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## Daneel2.0

Ok, so here it is. I happen to own both the Star Wars RPG books and the Dark Heresy RPG books so I decided to do some math for a couple of minutes and managed to normalize out a average, unmodified standard human in both systems. Once that was done, I compared the weapons from 40K and the weapons from SW to find out which were more powerful. As expected, the 40K troop weapons were better, but in surprising ways. The Lasgun is basically the same as a Blaster Pistol. The Bolter basically the same as a Heavy Blaster Pistol. Where the dramatic differences occur is the more damaging weapons like melta's, plasma and lascannons. These are far and away superior to their respective counterparts in SW. The only place that SW weapons really excel is in their range with is between 50% and 100% better than their counterparts in 40K in almost every case (except lascannon).

Melee weapons see a slight shift, due to technology, back to advantage for SW. Chain swords are the almost exact equivalent of vibroswords, but lightsabers are decidedly better than power weapons. Again, there is no equivalent for force weapons, so they lose out a little there (but not enough to make up for the difference between Lightsabers and Power Weapons IMO)

As for armor, in both systems the armor provides the same type of bonus and, again as expected, the 40K armor provides a slight advantage in actual stopping power. IG carapace armor is slightly better than Storm Trooper armor but doesn't offer the same kind of utility advantages that Storm Trooper armor offers. Powered Armor is the heaviest kind of armor in SW and it is significantly better that Space marine armor (same armor bonus, but with the addition of MUCH better benefits, like 3 extra weapons and sensors). Unfortunately for those poor SW troopers, there is no Terminator Armor analog (at least that I know of) in Star Wars. All told, the armor in 40K wins here.

Where things get really bloody for SW troops is in the war machines department. 40K vehicles, tanks and titans are just better than the SW ones pretty much all around. So much better that there really isn't much comparison.

Hold on Star Wars fans before you despair, the SW forces make up for this devastating lack in their ion weaponry. Ion weaponry, so devastating to vehicles, is not only prevalent in SW but down right common. The weapons range in size from hold out pistols up to colossal planetary defense lasers that can hit ships WAY out in space.

Between the two (war engines and ion weaponry), I'd say it was a draw.

Shields are another important factor. They are a give and take prospect. 40K shields are better for small things (like people and tanks and small space ships), but progressively worse as you get bigger. Planetary Bombardment Shields in SW trump anything that 40K can generate. So much so that they might stop Abbadon's Planet Killer, maybe.

When it comes down to the blood and bullets, I still say SW wins. The problem is one of scale. The SW fleets are just too vast to mess with and their sizes dwarf anything in the 40K universe. I mentioned earlier some of the stats of Vader's Super Star Destroyer. In comparison, the Emperor class Battleship in 40K has 20,000 personnel. That puts it in the category of a small Star Destroyer, larger than a Victory Class, but smaller than a Imperial Class. That means there are 6 classes of Star Destroyer larger than the biggest battleship that then Imperials can produce, and they are faster, better shielded, better armed and better defended. 3 of those classes are 10 times bigger. If your ground troops never get to planet, they never get to bring their weapons to bear.

EDIT: I have the math, but was uncertain as to the copy-write issues that posting the math could produce. If you would like to discuss it, drop me a line.


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## Angel of Retribution

The eldar have webway and the emperor was working on a similar system before his er..accident, but if the imperium also has a webway system then no need for ships. I know, i know thats a big, unbelievable jump. But so is saying star wars would win, lets not forget people the empire was handed its own arse by four foot teddies. Thats sad! All the imperium would have to do is hire a few cuddly toys and there goes the imperium. 

And it doesn't matter how much time you have to prepare, if SW ground forces face SM ground forces they might put up a fight but they WILL get stomped.


----------



## Wraithian

Sure, a SM would grind a storm trooper into the asphault on the ground, but uh... Getting that SM to the ground to fight on, there in lies the problem. 

BTW, Daneel:

If I have ever met the Thor device to the Mathhammer world, you are it. Christ on a cracker. Thought my head was going to explode. ...too...many...numbers...

:biggrin:


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## Silb

looking back on everyone's arguments, i think that both sides would be pretty evenly matched. To me it seems like a lot of you are sort of biased one way or another (mostly towards the imperium's side, after all this is a warhammer 40k forum.). There are just a few problems with almost everyone's arguments:

1. Is it ever stated where the battle would take place? In the 40k universe? In the Star Wars universe? In some uninhabited galaxy seperate from both? This is a major factor, since pre-built fortifications, important objectives (Terra, Coruscant, etc.), native alien races, and a whole bunch of other factors are influenced by the location of the war.

2. As I said before, it's almost impossible to compare the technology and strength of weapons and equipment in both universes. Something that seems constant is: the imperium is too afraid of technology to have anything better than what the republic has. Also, lightsabers act pretty much like power swords with a bit more strength added on. Something that isn't constant is: the strength of laser weapons in star wars compared to 40k weaponry, potentially some of them could have the strength of las pistols while others could have the strength of plasma guns.


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## Daneel2.0

The Eldar web-way was created by the Slaan (Old Ones) not the Eldar. Additionally while the Emperor was conducting research into the web-way, he was nowhere near ready to even test out creating his own version, more like gaining access to the Eldar one. 

The Empire didn't end due to the Ewok. It began as a military coup conducted by the emperor and ended, as all coups do, when the emperor was killed. That was done by Vader. Vader, not Ewok. It was funny the first time when I thought it was a joke. If it wasn't a joke then it's not funny:wink:

Finally, as I have stated twice now, Space Marines beat Storm Troopers. That doesn't help the Space Marine much if he is beating his head on the outside of a Planetary Defense Shield until he dies of old age (or the orbiting fleet grinds him into paste)


----------



## Daneel2.0

Silb said:


> looking back on everyone's arguments, i think that both sides would be pretty evenly matched. To me it seems like a lot of you are sort of biased one way or another (mostly towards the imperium's side, after all this is a warhammer 40k forum.). There are just a few problems with almost everyone's arguments:


I'm not biased either way. I love both universes. 



Silb said:


> 1. Is it ever stated where the battle would take place? In the 40k universe? In the Star Wars universe? In some uninhabited galaxy seperate from both? This is a major factor, since pre-built fortifications, important objectives (Terra, Coruscant, etc.), native alien races, and a whole bunch of other factors are influenced by the location of the war.


This is a problem. Unfortunately there is no good way to solve it, so I have been sort of ignoring it :angel: 

The only real way of gaining a solution (IMO) is to say that the 2 galaxies just sort of collided and merged giving both sides access to whatever they have already, but giving them both much larger expanses to move into.



Silb said:


> 2. As I said before, it's almost impossible to compare the technology and strength of weapons and equipment in both universes. Something that seems constant is: the imperium is too afraid of technology to have anything better than what the republic has. Also, lightsabers act pretty much like power swords with a bit more strength added on. Something that isn't constant is: the strength of laser weapons in star wars compared to 40k weaponry, potentially some of them could have the strength of las pistols while others could have the strength of plasma guns.


It's not impossible - read my post above. I did the math and gave you the results. As for lightsabers, their true strength isn't in the damage they do, but the armor they ignore. Trust me :laugh:



Wraithian said:


> BTW, Daneel:
> 
> If I have ever met the Thor device to the Mathhammer world, you are it. Christ on a cracker. Thought my head was going to explode. ...too...many...numbers...
> 
> :biggrin:


<bows> Thank you . . . Thank you <bows again>
:biggrin:


----------



## Angel of Retribution

Firstly i never stated that the eldar created the webway, just that they had it and besides i said it was a leap and a half...

As for Vader killing the Emperor...true...but the ewoks had a large hand in the events leading to the emperors death and handed the empire a serious defeat with (and this is a big point here) primitive technology that was no-where near the scale of what the empire was using. Sticks and rocks versus lasers, walkers and training and since they were an elite company...experience. I don't mean it to be funny, as i love the empire (can't stand the alliance) but it was a little offending and a tad unbelievable. But since it happened in the SW universe and is canon then the Imperium has a chance with its lesser tech. 

But Silb made a good point if the fighting was in the 40k universe they would have the advantage with none of that super SW tech everyone keeps throwing at me. If it took place in the SW universe, they would have the advantage and if it took place on neutral ground advantage Imperium. Because if they are smaller than SW they have less logistics to carry round unlike the tech heavy SW.

And i think maybe the terminators and others could teleport behind/through shields and things...


----------



## Daneel2.0

Angel of Retribution said:


> Firstly i never stated that the eldar created the webway, just that they had it and besides i said it was a leap and a half...


Point.



Angel of Retribution said:


> As for Vader killing the Emperor...true...but the ewoks had a large hand in the events leading to the emperors death and handed the empire a serious defeat with (and this is a big point here) primitive technology that was no-where near the scale of what the empire was using. Sticks and rocks versus lasers, walkers and training and since they were an elite company...experience. I don't mean it to be funny, as i love the empire (can't stand the alliance) but it was a little offending and a tad unbelievable. But since it happened in the SW universe and is canon then the Imperium has a chance with its lesser tech.


Sure thing. Actually, the ewoks had a major role in a minor battle that just happened to be where the camera was at. Read the books, you'll be happier.

The Emperor was actually battle-melding the forces both in space and on the ground and when he died there was a period of significant disruption to all the forces he controlled (think Tyranid hive mind). The Empire was winning that battle until the Emperor died.

As far as low tech vs. high tech, of course they have a chance, just not a good one. That is why I said I think that SW will win as all else being equal, the advantage is in their court.



Angel of Retribution said:


> But Silb made a good point if the fighting was in the 40k universe they would have the advantage with none of that super SW tech everyone keeps throwing at me. If it took place in the SW universe, they would have the advantage and if it took place on neutral ground advantage Imperium. Because if they are smaller than SW they have less logistics to carry round unlike the tech heavy SW.


Again, not really. He did indeed have a good point, but if it took place in the 40K universe, then SW would be approaching from the rim and the Imperium would ignore them until it was too late (can anyone say Tyranids). 

In the SW universe they would have supply lines that were untenable.

In neutral there is hope for a relatively even contest, but again this is where I placed them to start with, so advantage SW due to previous posts.



Angel of Retribution said:


> And i think maybe the terminators and others could teleport behind/through shields and things...


Maybe, but I doubt it. They can't do it in 40K so, assuming that shields work the same everywhere, they can't do it in SW.


----------



## vorbis

why is everyone forgetting the nids  they would slash hack and burn their way through sw no matter what galaxy it was set in


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## Dessel_Ordo

I'm with Daneel on this, in that I am a big fan of both universes... and wouldnt really want to see either get its ass handed too it.

Yoda and Eldrad talking philosophy... lol... absolutely NO ONE would have any idea what the fuck was going onn in the conversation

I think, that for the purpose of this thread, we should agree that galaxies got kinda fuseticated (much like we agreed on going wiht the Empire v.s. Imperium)
That said... the Rebels would become a non-issue then, as they would absolutely HATE both Imperium and Empire... prbably either tear itself in half trying to fight both (and losing) or go off and join the Tau

therefore we have a totally undistracted Empire focusing its might against whatever the Imperium has to spare at the moment...

Daneel, I would be interested to see what affect SW's war droids and or Mandalorians would have on the war/conflict.

Oh and feel free to drop said math hammer on me (what you've done before and, if at all possible, what I requested

__________ FTW!!!!!!!!:crazy:


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## Daneel2.0

vorbis said:


> why is everyone forgetting the nids  they would slash hack and burn their way through sw no matter what galaxy it was set in


I don't think anyone forgot them, but since they aren't really covered in the subject of the thread, we just moved them to the side.

If you think about it, they wouldn't care whether they were eating 40K humans or SW humans, so they are equal opportunity opponents. As such, both the 40K Imperium and the SW Empire would fight them equally.

EDIT: Dessel_Ordo - Math hammer on the way . . . THINK FAST!


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Okay I love both universes, but i have to say the imperium has the advantage. Although the SW universe wins out in space, at least a few ships would get into orbit, and thats all they need. A battle barge can carry 300 marines. A chapter has 1000 marines, but they never send them out all at once, but they still crush entire systems. Basicly heres how it they imperium wins. They send a whole bunch of guardsmen in to disract the clone troopers/storm troopers, then the marines just make a single surgical strike and crush any major resitance the SW unvierse has to offer. They move on and the guardsmen clean up the mess. They have 1 000 000 marines doing this... and things arent looking to good for the SW guys. And befor eoyu sya jedis, the imperium have callidus assassins and grey knights... not even a lightsaber helps when your being hunted by these guys.


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## Druchii

I think batman would beat both of them.


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## Angel of Retribution

Also morale would play into it too, i mean what must a Space marine in full gear charging and blasting his way towards you really make you feel (let alone a squad or even legion of them), lets not forget that the SW soldiers are just human or clones. I think they'd crap their keks and run away (unsucsessfully). SM have no such fear. 

If the SM break an armies morale and word spreads, soon no-one will want to fight the SM and im sure SW isn't as bloodthirsty as the Imperium ie: the Commisars!

As for the space battles, same thing. All the Imperium would need is a victory against an SSD or a fleet of SDs and the empire would start to question itself. But i don't think the same would happen to the Imperium, at least not on the same scale, because in 40k heavy losses are a common thing, especially for the poor guardsmen. Besides the Imperium fighting the empire would be better for them as they'd lose no-one to chaos, Hooray!

And besides its the Joker that would wup 'em, not batman!


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## Dessel_Ordo

math-hammer... big... :shok: ...


mah head hurts


Empire isnt all that afraid of heavy losses, granted they have less of a stomach for it then the Imperium... but it would still take some MASSIVE losses to get them to think twice.

Vaders SSD was the first of the class... it died... The EMpire built at least 15 more... Alliance killed them... Emperial Remnant still made more...
The Empire is stubborn like that, in fact, killing a bunch of Super Star destroyers would probably lead to them producing Super _Duper_ Star Destroyers and or Super II Star Destroyers
Dont undedrsestimate the ass-holeish stubborness of the Empire


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok i have to say something about these damn ewok comments. the ewoks DID NOT overhtrow the whole empire. Daneel was right they played a big role in a very tiny battle. Vader did kill the Emperor but the Empire still limped on. little teddy bears did not bring down a galaxy spanning empire people. even once the rebels "won" there are still systems that are being held by the Empire, read the books. i swear im going to flip out if i hear another post saying that ewoks took down the Empire.


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## Luciferi

Red Orc said:


> Is SM power armour as good, better or not as good as ST power armour?



As far as I'm aware there aren't any STs in powered armour.

Sorry if I'm wrong but isn't their (STs) armour just "plastoid" plates over a body glove? What it says on wookiepedia.


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## Red Orc

Daneel2.0 said:


> ...
> As for armor, in both systems the armor provides the same type of bonus and, again as expected, the 40K armor provides a slight advantage in actual stopping power. IG carapace armor is slightly better than Storm Trooper armor but doesn't offer the same kind of utility advantages that Storm Trooper armor offers. Powered Armor is the heaviest kind of armor in SW and it is significantly better that Space marine armor (same armor bonus, but with the addition of MUCH better benefits, like 3 extra weapons and sensors). Unfortunately for those poor SW troopers, there is no Terminator Armor analog (at least that I know of) in Star Wars. All told, the armor in 40K wins here.
> ...


Luckily, Daneel provided a pretty comprehensive answer on that. Boy am I glad he did the math-hammer...

:sitting back waiting for the Imperial Fleet to arrive cyclops:


----------



## Daneel2.0

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Okay I love both universes, but i have to say the imperium has the advantage. Although the SW universe wins out in space, at least a few ships would get into orbit, and thats all they need. A battle barge can carry 300 marines. A chapter has 1000 marines, but they never send them out all at once, but they still crush entire systems. Basicly heres how it they imperium wins. They send a whole bunch of guardsmen in to disract the clone troopers/storm troopers, then the marines just make a single surgical strike and crush any major resitance the SW unvierse has to offer. They move on and the guardsmen clean up the mess. They have 1 000 000 marines doing this... and things arent looking to good for the SW guys. And befor eoyu sya jedis, the imperium have callidus assassins and grey knights... not even a lightsaber helps when your being hunted by these guys.


I still don't think you really understand the difference in fleets. Lets us look at a small example of a Sector with 4 Sub-sectors for a total of 16 Solar Systems.

In the 40K system Battlefleets are responsible for the protection of a single Sector, and are made up of between 50 and 75 Battleships, cruisers, frigates and destroyers. In addition they have access to “countless” smaller vessles such as transports, shuttles, messenger craft and long range patrol craft. According to BFG fleet rules (which may or may not apply I don’t know) you can only have a certain number of Battleships per Battlecruiser and only a certain number of Battlecruisers for each Cruiser. If you want to maximize the number of battleships in your fleet (and we assume the maximum number of ships in the fleet) you have a fleet composition that is 10 Battleships, 32 Battlecruisers and 33 Cruisers.

Compare this to the fleet that would guard the exact same space in Star Wars. Each Star system is given its own System Force made up of a MINIMUM of 90 ships and 3 Star Destroyers. 4 Star systems forces make up a fleet with the addition of 6 Star Destroyers and 400 combat ships. All fleets w/in a sector make up the Sector Group with the addition of 1 Super Star Destroyer, 24 Star Destroyers, 2400 combat ships and 1600 other ships.

This means that there are 1 Super Star Destroyer, 96 Star Destroyers, 5440 combat ships and 2400 other ships.

Now, the smallest SSD out masses the largest 40K battleship by a factor of 10. The smallest Star Destroyer is just under 1/2 the size of the largest Battleship, so assume that ALL the SDs are of the smallest type and ALL of the Battleships are of the largest type. This means that just looking at the Battleship analogs the people in 40K are out-massed 5:1.

If instead of the smallest SSD and SDs if we use the average one then just the SSDs and SDs out-mass the entire Battlefleet 2:1 EVEN IF ALL 75 SHIPS WERE OF THE LARGEST CLASS BATTLESHIP.

In summation, there is just NO contest between Star Wars fleets and 40K fleets. Remember this also doesn't include the fact that starships are easier to build in Star Wars and that the largest class battleship CAN"T EVEN BE MADE IN 40K ANYMORE (or that there are only 9 of them for that matter)



Angel of Retribution said:


> Also morale would play into it too, i mean what must a Space marine in full gear charging and blasting his way towards you really make you feel (let alone a squad or even legion of them), lets not forget that the SW soldiers are just human or clones. I think they'd crap their keks and run away (unsucsessfully). SM have no such fear.
> 
> If the SM break an armies morale and word spreads, soon no-one will want to fight the SM and im sure SW isn't as bloodthirsty as the Imperium ie: the Commisars!
> 
> As for the space battles, same thing. All the Imperium would need is a victory against an SSD or a fleet of SDs and the empire would start to question itself. But i don't think the same would happen to the Imperium, at least not on the same scale, because in 40k heavy losses are a common thing, especially for the poor guardsmen. Besides the Imperium fighting the empire would be better for them as they'd lose no-one to chaos, Hooray!
> 
> And besides its the Joker that would wup 'em, not batman!


Believe it or not, this actually wouldn't be that big a problem. The military forces in Star Wars are notorious for their inability to break even in the face of complete extermination. Read some of the later books where they were fighting Vong.




Dessel_Ordo said:


> math-hammer... big... :shok: ...
> 
> 
> mah head hurts


Well, I've always favored the bigger hammer approach
:angel:


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Ok so the SW universe wins out in basic troops. But in the way of elites 40k wins hands down.. Marines are only the start. They also have SoB, Assassins, grey Knights, Titan Legions, Deathwatch, Adeptus Custododes etc. I mean a jedi has nothing over a grey knight let alone an Adeptus Custodotes.


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## Daneel2.0

That I don't know. Remember that SW also has it's "elite" troops. The emperor's hands were the Emperor's personal assassins, the Black Network, the Elite guard, etc., etc., etc.

And I didn't say that the SW troops had an edge, I said their equipment did. The way that I set things up to do the comparison pretty much made an IG trooper and a SW Soldier the same thing (which I did because both represent the average unmodified human)

Jedi are a completely different proposition. There has been some speculation on the board that Jedi are comparable to Psykers in 40K. I don't think that this is the case at all, unfortunately I'm stuck trying to find a way to translate either into the others terms. There just doesn't seem to be a good way of translating abilities, even though the source is at least a little bit similar.

For one thing, the Jedi don't risk daemonic possession every time they use their abilities. For another, the Warp is an actual place that you can go to, where the Force is simply an energy field you can tap into for various effects.

If someone else has a good idea about how to merge the two, I'm all ears.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

What I meant was the martial skills of the grey knights are beyond that of most jedis, and their equiptment is also pretty damn good to. I see the SW lasblaster as being like a more armourpiercing version of pulse weapons, in effect.


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## Daneel2.0

That's actually close ! Think of it more like a completely energy based power weapon that is BETTER at ignoring armor and you bang on.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But it wouldnt go through power armour would it? Carapace armour for sure, but power armour? I not doing this from any proof, but i really dont think it could go through power armour.


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## Maxwell256

The interesting thing is, if this topic was on a Star Wars Forum. The Empire/Old Republic/New Republic would crush the Imperium.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But were trying not to be biased.


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## Daneel2.0

Ok. Finished doing the comparison of vehicles between the 2 systems. Here is the results.

Vehicle armor works significantly different in the two systems essentially making vehicles MUCH more fragile in SW than in 40K. Whether this is a result of the non-typical movement types (wide spread use of walkers and repulsor vehicles) reducing the ability to add heavier armor, or some other reason, I don’t know - but there it is. Armor in SW is degraded by each and every hit that does damage. This allows cumulative hits to successfully destroy a vehicle even if each hit doesn’t hurt much. For instance, with 180 Heavy Blaster shots dealing roughly average damage it is possible to destroy an AT-AT (meaning that it is statistically possible to kill an AT-AT in 1 round with 180 people each using a heavy blaster). This isn’t quite the case in 40K. I say “quite” because it is possible to degrade a vehicle’s armor in 40K but that is only 1 of 20 different possibilities, and the destruction of the vehicle is only a 5% probability on any shot that does damage (in other words it statistically takes 20 shots from a lascannon to kill a Land Raider, and a Bolter could shoot at it all day to no effect). The combined effect means that SW vehicles are more susceptible to low power fire and less susceptible to high power fire (but not much – I’ll explain in a second).

Conclusion: Armor in 40K trumps armor in SW. By the numbers I’d give them about a 2x increased effectiveness. 

Vehicles weapons are a different story. After having done the math, it turns out that, much to my surprise, the weapons are pretty comparable. A Heavy Laser Cannon is practically identical to the Autocannon (w/in 2%). A Dual Heavy Laser Cannon is a ½ strength Battle cannon with 2x the range. At the top end, the Shell Launcher is much better than the Demolisher cannon (30% better damage at 5 times the range) Weapon ranges almost all go to SW (the exception being the Autocannon and the Heavy Laser Cannon). The farthest off a 40K vehicle can engage the enemy is 1600 meters (with the Demolisher cannon). The statistics for a Earthshaker weren’t included but extrapolation gives it a range of 2,667 meters. In SW, their ranges top out at 3000 meters for the Dual Heavy Laser Cannon. As I said, very close but in favor of SW.

Conclusion: Weapons in the ground siege engine category are pretty comparable, with a slight damage and a slight range advantage to SW overall. 

Speed was the last issue I looked at. Very briefly, Land Raider and the AT-AT are roughly equivalent (AT-AT is 8% faster), as are the other classes (Land Speeder is 5% slower in SW than in 40K). There are, of course, some differences. For example a Attack Bike in 3 times slower than a Speeder Bike (both attack bikes), while a Rhino is 2 times faster than the Baktoid Armor Workshop (both APC analogs). 

All told, the survivability of the 40K armor and the relative similarity in range and power of the weapons as well as the similarity in the speed gives the clear advantage to the 40K ground effect vehicles.

Now, above I said that I'd give an example showing that vehicles in SW are less vulnerable to heavy fire and that is true. To illustrate this, lets take a Land Raider and a AT-AT. If we shoot the Land Raider with a Demolisher cannon, it will deal damage to the tank forcing a 5% chance of destruction. On maximum damage, it destroys it outright. If we shoot a AT-AT with the same cannon it takes the hit w/ no chance of being destroyed. In fact it takes 2 shots from the demolisher at maximum damage to kill the AT-AT (4 hits on average).

In actual combat situations, If you were the SW Empire, you would want a minimum of 3 AT-AT’s for each Land Raider on the field of battle. At this ratio you could reasonably expect to get 1 damaged AT-AT back for every 3 you fielded at the end of the battle. On the Imperium side of the fence you would want to see 2 Land Raiders for every 3 AT-AT’s on the field. At this ratio you would expect to get 1 damaged Land Raider back for every 2 you fielded.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. As always, I have the math, but as always I'm not going to post it. If you want to look, PM me :grin:


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But what about the Imperial super-heavies? Does Sw have anything to counter them?


----------



## Druchii

Most super heavy ground units are too silly to ever use in real combat. The baneblade for instance is just a huge red target.


----------



## CommissarHorn

The Imperium would screw over the Empire and the GA and the Yuzhaan Vong and the Jedi/Sith and all the other SW races at least 10 times over and then probobly shit on them just for fun.
The Imperium has no morals, no respect, nothing. SW would be too shit scared to do anyhting.
Whats the most cruel thing in SW? "Oh no you've shot a prisoner and cut off my legs! You cruel bastards!"
The Imperium discects people alive, then forces em to stay alive, and thats like an everyday occurance, nothing special.
Vader was mostly hated (and almost assasinated) when he ordered some Tie's to shoot 24,000 civilian refugees while they were waliking somewhere.

In 40k, millions are sacrificed to the Emperor everyday because its the right thing to do.

And another thing; Aliens.
SW; aliens are tolerated.
40k; "Burn alien scum! Burn in Hell you piece of shit!"

In SW why are the Sith so evil? Cause they hate stuff.
In the Imperium of Humanity all the good people, hate stuff.

No contest. The only biggest threat SW has seen are the Yuzann Vong, who are like a mix of Elder and Tyranids, and they did was conquer less than 6 planets and kill some stuff. The Empire and GA couldnt even take em while combined.

No Ladies and gentlmen, the Star Wars Universe is pretty much, Fucked.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I think they'd give the imperium a fight, especialy in space, but eventualy the mariens surgical strikes would weaken the enemy while the guardsmen are simply playing attrition games. So 4ok universe takes a whole bunch of causlaties until the SW guys cant hold any longer. Then theres no mercy! Long live the emperor... well you know what i mean


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## Daneel2.0

CommissarHorn said:


> The Imperium would screw over the Empire and the GA and the Yuzhaan Vong and the Jedi/Sith and all the other SW races at least 10 times over and then probobly shit on them just for fun.
> The Imperium has no morals, no respect, nothing. SW would be too shit scared to do anyhting.
> Whats the most cruel thing in SW? "Oh no you've shot a prisoner and cut off my legs! You cruel bastards!"
> The Imperium discects people alive, then forces em to stay alive, and thats like an everyday occurance, nothing special.
> Vader was mostly hated (and almost assasinated) when he ordered some Tie's to shoot 24,000 civilian refugees while they were waliking somewhere.
> 
> In 40k, millions are sacrificed to the Emperor everyday because its the right thing to do.
> 
> And another thing; Aliens.
> SW; aliens are tolerated.
> 40k; "Burn alien scum! Burn in Hell you piece of shit!"
> 
> In SW why are the Sith so evil? Cause they hate stuff.
> In the Imperium of Humanity all the good people, hate stuff.
> 
> No contest. The only biggest threat SW has seen are the Yuzann Vong, who are like a mix of Elder and Tyranids, and they did was conquer less than 6 planets and kill some stuff. The Empire and GA couldnt even take em while combined.
> 
> No Ladies and gentlmen, the Star Wars Universe is pretty much, Fucked.


I hate to break this too you, but the sanctioned destruction of a planet full of Billions to gather a little information is a pretty harsh, even in 40K terms. In general, being cruel doesn't make people scared, it makes them pissed. Saying that the Imperium would win because they are bigger bastards is totally without basis in either logic or empirical reality. The bigger the bastard, the more everyone else wants you dead.

Finally, I don't know where you get your information concerning the fluff from SW, but the Vong are nothing like the Eldar, and only marginally like the Tyranids. Sure, they are straight extra-galactic bio-engineering types, but there is no hive mind and they don't eat planets. They are much more like Nurggle Chaos than anything. Besides, they conquered most of the galaxy, including Coruscant. There was something like 3 TRILLION dead from that war (That's 1000 planets with earth like populations). And with all that death and destruction, did the people of SW say "Oh crap! We better quit. They are awful mean, and we're scared" ? ? ? No, they just dug in, produced Starships by the thousands and fought back - AND WON.


----------



## Daneel2.0

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> But what about the Imperial super-heavies? Does Sw have anything to counter them?


I don't really think so. What they do have is a metric @ss ton of fliers from personal fighter style fliers, to dwarf the Tau Manta fliers. Remember, Star Destroyers are completely atmospheric capable crafts.



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I think they'd give the imperium a fight, especialy in space, but eventualy the mariens surgical strikes would weaken the enemy while the guardsmen are simply playing attrition games. So 4ok universe takes a whole bunch of causlaties until the SW guys cant hold any longer. Then theres no mercy! Long live the emperor... well you know what i mean


Nice :biggrin: 

I'm hesitant to lay it out like that because there are too many variables that aren't defined for me to make a call one way or the other. I could arrange the variables to generate your prediction as a likely outcome though :laugh:


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

lol, yay for putting variables in favourable contexts


----------



## Krovin Rezh

I have to say, a Jedi Master would be one of the most feared enemies on even a 40K battlefield. Lightsabers are like power weapons that auto-wound if you hit with them (unless the defender has a lightsaber as well), and the Master would have to have a WS of at least 7. Lightsabers can handily defeat blast doors, so they would have to function like melta bombs against vehicles. They can also be used as a shield against any weapon S5 or lower, and can deflect energy shots (las, plasma, melta, pulse) back at the firer on a save roll of 6.

Then there's the force powers. He'd have force push (lash of submission), force speed (turbo boosters), force jump (jump pack), and jedi mind trick (target model doesn't attack next turn).


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## Dessel_Ordo

Dareen, sorry to correct you, but the official numbers on the vong war (according to wookipedia (those guys are like nazi's when it comes to getting facts right) is 365 trillion

there have been a few SW super heavies... however they dont stack up to 40k's, I say this with confidence, after having seen (and subsequently pounded the living shit out of the weak spots) of several in the game's the appeared in, I can give Super Heavies to 40k (without the math-hammer, as the SW super-heavies being so few and far between, most lack a wookipedia entry)


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## Angel of Retribution

War isn't as predictable as people think. You can throw all the numbers and odds and stats you want but if it actually came down to a fight between the two who the fugg knows. I just think on sheer experience (lets not forget the SM live for hundreds of years, if lucky, and face countless enemies, conquering countless worlds) with space combat, land combat, planet taking or destroying and varying threats (they face daemons, magic and walking claws and teeth). I know that in SW there are times of peace, there are times soldiers arn't fighting, that there is no need for war, especially on a galactic scale. The empire is the best bet for facing the Imperium, and yes they've got bigger ships and more of them, sure they've got good weapons and armour and countless troops but, but to fight the Imperium (especially at their kind of war) i can't see them coming out ahead! Its good to see the thought behind the posts though.


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## vorbis

were the teddy bears included in ur math hammer i heard they basicaly won the war


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## Angel of Retribution

Uh Oh dont say that or someone will get angry (not gonna mention names). As stated earlier in the post the teddies...ewoks sorry...played a major role in a minor battle and wern't worth a damn apparently (what i gathered from what little i was told was that the empire may have laid the smackdown on their furry arses......i hope so, hate the little buggers)

p.s:what book should i read to be happy about that?


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## vorbis

sorry was just in a mean mood didnt mean it.

for what my tuppance is worth i think that SW would start well due to overwhelming air support and everything but then it would drag on and imperium are masters of attrition warfare the SM are walking talking pillboxes who can withstand and deal out enormous punishment and the guard are just gorram crazy plus imperium have specialists like catachans and the crazy kriegs for example.

just had another thought imp are pretty stretched as is personally i think just one on one they would be able to win (no evidence just because i like the universe better if im honest) but if the imp has to fight everything it has to now plus the whole time of ending fluff AND THEN you add another super power to fight against they might just be the straw that breaks the camls back


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## AzraelJahannam

Daneel2.0 said:


> In actual combat situations, If you were the SW Empire, you would want a minimum of 3 AT-AT’s for each Land Raider on the field of battle. At this ratio you could reasonably expect to get 1 damaged AT-AT back for every 3 you fielded at the end of the battle. On the Imperium side of the fence you would want to see 2 Land Raiders for every 3 AT-AT’s on the field. At this ratio you would expect to get 1 damaged Land Raider back for every 2 you fielded.


Just curiosity, cause you have the resources to work this out, or at least give a basic estimate, how would a Titan work into this? Like, a Warhound titan, or a Reaver or Warlord? Or hell, what about an Imperator or Warmonger class? Even Warhound Titans eat Land Raiders for breakfast. Just curious.



Krovin Rezh said:


> I have to say, a Jedi Master would be one of the most feared enemies on even a 40K battlefield. Lightsabers are like power weapons that auto-wound if you hit with them (unless the defender has a lightsaber as well), and the Master would have to have a WS of at least 7. Lightsabers can handily defeat blast doors, so they would have to function like melta bombs against vehicles. They can also be used as a shield against any weapon S5 or lower, and can deflect energy shots (las, plasma, melta, pulse) back at the firer on a save roll of 6.
> 
> Then there's the force powers. He'd have force push (lash of submission), force speed (turbo boosters), force jump (jump pack), and jedi mind trick (target model doesn't attack next turn).


Err, firstly, A power weapon cuts through armor and flesh just as easily as a lightsaber, hell, if you stab a frigging greater daemon in the foot with a lightsaber it isn't going to auto-wound him, it'll piss him off, but it's still just going to just do as much damage as it cuts through, like a power sword.

Secondly, I can't see a Jedi Master being any more skilled with a sword than a space marine chapter master, who has also had centuries to hone his skill, and always in conflict and warfare, always fighting new enemies, backed by a genetically superior body.... And a Chief Librarian... Who essentially possesses the same amount of experience and skill of a chapter master, yet is backed with a force weapon that not only cuts just as efficiently as a lightsaber, but can EXTINGUISH YOUR SOUL once it punches into you... and can essentially do anything with the warp that a master could do with the force...

Thirdly, the Jedi's are ONLY made special through the force. They are genetically unmodified, generally humanoid with essentially human body composition and stamina. Meaning they (the masters) are toughness 3. Strength 3. Training giving them a weapon skill of 5, or 6 max, a jedi knight having 4 (space marines dedicate just as much time to training). Initiative 5 (basic Jedi with initiative 4) thanks to jedi reflex. 10 leadership (lesser jedi ranging from 8-9). Ballistic skill probably close to a guardsman as they don't even train with guns usually. Probably no more than 2 wounds max. and their sword being the only armor they get against attacks, as they just wear sweet ass looking cloaks, so no armor past weapon skill in close combat, and then of course I won't disagree with your 6+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks, however I would say more of a 4+ than a 6+, however the list should be limited further. Melta weapons can't be deflected, it would be like someone trying to deflect superheated steam(just an analogy) can't be done. And if a jedi tried deflecting a plasma bolt... he would end up with plasma splattering all over him, eating and burning him away like a flame on wax. As you haven't mentioned bolters I'd imagine you've acknowledged that trying to deflect a high velocity impact triggered mass reactive explosive doesn't work. As for las, yeah, deffineatly the smaller stuff, but if someone tries telling me that a jedi can deflect a lascannon shot... I mean, the jedi has to be strong enough to keep the shot from slamming his own lightsaber through his forehead... that could be embarrassing...

As for force push, that would be more of a throw people back in close combat, with of course no real damage done to them, not pick up and drop an entire squad wherever you want within a certain area. As for force jump, a jedi can't just bound across the field as if he is in zero g, yeah, they can jump far once and a while if they need to, but they can't just maintain that level of concentration in a warzone to bounce across a field of battle like the easter bunny on crack, MAYBE counting as having bounding leap or whatever it is hormogaunts have. Force speed = run pretty fast = fleet, nuff said. As for jedi mind trick, the model would probably have to pass a leadership test before getting tricked, as yeah, an imp guard should fall for it, but if a little hovering junk shop manager can resist it, then a battle hardened space marine would probably in most cases shake it off without even thinking about it, wonder why the bald black guy with a glowing stick in a funny cloak is waving his hand like a handycap trying to catch a taxi/skimmer/thunderhawk, then proceed to tear him apart with mass reactive bolts wondering 'what is this universe coming to?...'


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

calm down Angel of Retribution no need to get heated. i cant find the book right now but i know i have it somewhere in the dump that's my room. so once i finish getting rid of the orks that have grown in there ill let you know also id like to agree on what azrael jahanamm said about the jedi. they are not space marines and therefore cannot be compared to them because of course they would not be able to hold up to a librarian in some circumstances others they could. think of them as an elites choice not an actual race like the space marines. they would be more like sergeants persay, one to a squad. as for the sith they would be less in number but way more powerful than the normal jedi. they are like special characters because there arent armies of jedi or sith. vader is actually a lot quicker and more powerful than the mechanical sith lord we all see in thte movies and he frequented battles often. each side has different strengths and weaknesses that, i think, even out the keel for the whole scenario making it difficult to announce an immediate winner. the war would have to be played out for us to actually know but it would be hell for a very LONG time, methinks much like what the imperium is in today, nonstop conflict for both sides. i can just see stormtroopers and imperial guard/space marines battling on the wortorn planet of Mygeeto with guns blazing and tie fighters running strafing runs while marines rip troopers apart with bare hands. meanwhile Darth Vader personally leads the assault on Cadia, Leman Russ tanks duke it out with the hovering grav tanks of the Empire while Vader slaughters all in is path guard and marine alike.


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## Krovin Rezh

@ Azrael:
The problem with doing direct comparisons like that is that it is a generalization of an entire force. The Jedi are made up of a wide array of different races, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. To do a fair comparison with existing 40K forces, we would have to first design concrete character & unit designs for them. Naturally, my previous post was just an exploration of the possibilities. I you want to create your own Jedi characters that are a lowly as an Imperial Guardsman, I'm not going to stop you. Just doesn't sound like much fun to me...


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## Dessel_Ordo

I agree, your average jedi Knight/Sith Apprentice would be an expensive upgrade leader. People Like Vader, Palpatine, Katarn, Kenobi, they would all be special characters.

I agree with most of the saves, but force users have been known to use the force to redirect _some_ of the things a saber cant deflect, but not enough to really provide the dame save they get against low end las-weapons... and bolters still cant be stopped. An assasins shot would set off a jedi's "danger sense" (what lets them dodge shit so well, the force tips them off) but in a battlefeild... well,wverything is fuckin dangerous during battle, dodging becomes a focused effort, which means no fighting back, leading to more dodging... eventually they slip up, get hit, and well, die.

There are some jedi/sith that could, and would throw a whole squad, or electrify a whole squad ect ect ect

yes they are faster, wut they could focus for short periods of time and move even _faster_, as in, i11 fast...


I can see where this is going already, Heresy Onlines SW codex... ":ireful2:damnit we couldnt figure out a winner in the thread, so we made this so you can find out for yourself:ireful2:" right underneath Codex: Galactic Empire or Codex: Star Wars

lolz, this could get interesting, lolz:crazy:


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## AzraelJahannam

Krovin Rezh said:


> @ Azrael:
> The problem with doing direct comparisons like that is that it is a generalization of an entire force. The Jedi are made up of a wide array of different races, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. To do a fair comparison with existing 40K forces, we would have to first design concrete character & unit designs for them. Naturally, my previous post was just an exploration of the possibilities. I you want to create your own Jedi characters that are a lowly as an Imperial Guardsman, I'm not going to stop you. Just doesn't sound like much fun to me...


Eheh, don't get me wrong, I love Jedi, Yoda rocks my socks. But I realize that there has to be a certain amount of fluff 'reality' to the general Jedi character. The statistics I stated above were derived from the SW books I've read and movies I've watched. Why did I give them human toughness and strength? Because they are generally humanoids that share the same characteristics as humans in regard to physical strength and corporeal endurance. Not superhuman. It is their training and their ability to use the force that allows them to become above the average human. In actuality, the toughness and strength stats I gave that were the same as a guardsman are also the same stats as a basic Inquisitor Lord. It doesn't matter how badassed they are, they're still only human. All of my statistics had specific reasoning behind each one. However, special characters for example, may have alternative stats, Darth Vader for example, he is generally more powerful with the force than other Jedi, so certain aspects of him would be advanced. Not to mention the nifty armor save his suit would give him. Other characters would be more advanced than the average knight/master/padawan. Oh, and I forgot one other rule for Jedi, no leadership test required to use 'psychic' (force) attacks(... unless since they are fighting in a 40K universe they are subject to it's rules, and fear of the fickle nature of the warp, vice versa, perhaps on SW home ground, psykers of the Imperium no longer fear the warp and so can use their psykic powers without a leadership test). Though you might consider making a unit 'realistic' according to their respective fluff as making them less fun, I am attempting to ensure that the game play is fun for both players. Would you like somebody making an army of gungans for 40k (which would actually be kind of trippy... if slightly pathetic) and making them strength 5 with rending due to their extendable tongues and bad grammer? armor save 4+ because they're pretty sure their giant ears give them that extra protection? Of course not, people want to play against 'realistic' armies that follow their respective fluff. And hell, even with those stats, a Jedi knight is still a weapon skill 4 model with a power sword, leadership 8, and... hmm, I forgot to say a number of attacks... I'd say 2 or 3?, initiative 4, with psychic powers that can boost various stats when they concentrate to use them like fleet, bounding leap or er... whatever that one is with the 12 inch assault... pretty sure its bounding leap, probably further increased initiative... that sort of stuff, never mind the lightning etc, and with a 4+ armor save against certain projectile weapons. You have to have a reason for each stat.


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## Angel of Retribution

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> calm down Angel of Retribution no need to get heated. i cant find the book right now but i know i have it somewhere in the dump that's my room. so once i finish getting rid of the orks that have grown in there ill let you know also id like to agree on what azrael jahanamm said about the jedi. they are not space marines and therefore cannot be compared to them because of course they would not be able to hold up to a librarian in some circumstances others they could. think of them as an elites choice not an actual race like the space marines. they would be more like sergeants persay, one to a squad. as for the sith they would be less in number but way more powerful than the normal jedi. they are like special characters because there arent armies of jedi or sith. vader is actually a lot quicker and more powerful than the mechanical sith lord we all see in thte movies and he frequented battles often. each side has different strengths and weaknesses that, i think, even out the keel for the whole scenario making it difficult to announce an immediate winner. the war would have to be played out for us to actually know but it would be hell for a very LONG time, methinks much like what the imperium is in today, nonstop conflict for both sides. i can just see stormtroopers and imperial guard/space marines battling on the wortorn planet of Mygeeto with guns blazing and tie fighters running strafing runs while marines rip troopers apart with bare hands. meanwhile Darth Vader personally leads the assault on Cadia, Leman Russ tanks duke it out with the hovering grav tanks of the Empire while Vader slaughters all in is path guard and marine alike.



Oh i am calm, i meant it in a jokey way not offensive. I love the varying opinions of others, i love to debate. I thrive on conflict. 

And although you've probably guessed im for the Imperium by now i still give specialised troops like the jedi a better chance than most. The most experienced troops, the veterans will always do better. I particularily think Darth Vader would do good (at least i would hope cos Vader is the coolest)


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## Daneel2.0

Dessel_Ordo said:


> Dareen, sorry to correct you, but the official numbers on the vong war (according to wookipedia (those guys are like nazi's when it comes to getting facts right) is 365 trillion


Hey, no problems here. Correct to your heart's content :fuck: - no just joking. Thanks for the correction, I haven't read those books in a while and I was pulling a number out of the sky that I thought was close. I remembered it was in the trillions but didn't know it was that high.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> there have been a few SW super heavies... however they dont stack up to 40k's, I say this with confidence, after having seen (and subsequently pounded the living shit out of the weak spots) of several in the game's the appeared in, I can give Super Heavies to 40k (without the math-hammer, as the SW super-heavies being so few and far between, most lack a wookipedia entry)


I tend to agree with you. Super heavies are like other 40K tanks only more so. They have all the advantages of the better armor, none of the disadvantages of worse weapons or range and shields to boot. Super heavies still dominate the game board.



Angel of Retribution said:


> War isn't as predictable as people think.


Yes, it actually is exactly as predictable as I think. In fact I remember saying "There are too many variables in this situation for me to have any confidence in predicting the outcome" or something very similar. :shok:



Angel of Retribution said:


> I just think on sheer experience (lets not forget the SM live for hundreds of years, if lucky, and face countless enemies, conquering countless worlds) with space combat, land combat, planet taking or destroying and varying threats (they face daemons, magic and walking claws and teeth).


Wait, didn't I see that advertisement word for word off the Imperial Guard Recruiter Poster down the street?



Angel of Retribution said:


> I know that in SW there are times of peace, there are times soldiers arn't fighting, that there is no need for war, especially on a galactic scale. The empire is the best bet for facing the Imperium, and yes they've got bigger ships and more of them, sure they've got good weapons and armour and countless troops but, but to fight the Imperium (especially at their kind of war) i can't see them coming out ahead! Its good to see the thought behind the posts though.


Well thanks, I think, for the thought behind the post comment, but I think you are making a LOT of assumptions that you really should examine more closely. You may in fact be right in your conclusion, I'll know better when I have a better idea about how shields work in both systems. There is a lot of combat that will depend on it.



vorbis said:


> sorry was just in a mean mood didnt mean it.
> 
> for what my tuppance is worth i think that SW would start well due to overwhelming air support and everything but then it would drag on and imperium are masters of attrition warfare the SM are walking talking pillboxes who can withstand and deal out enormous punishment and the guard are just gorram crazy plus imperium have specialists like catachans and the crazy kriegs for example.


Wait, that was on the recruitment poster too :biggrin:

Actually I am beginning to think it would be exactly opposite. I have the vaguest notion that SW would lose BAD until it adapted it's tech to the Imperium's better armor and increased the strength of its own armor or shields (either through their own knowledge, or through reverse engineering Imperium stuff). Once that occurred the Imperium would get squashed.

Oh and a walking pillbox is an oxymoron :ireful2:



vorbis said:


> just had another thought imp are pretty stretched as is personally i think just one on one they would be able to win (no evidence just because i like the universe better if im honest) but if the imp has to fight everything it has to now plus the whole time of ending fluff AND THEN you add another super power to fight against they might just be the straw that breaks the camls back


I'm ignoring the effects of other races on this conflict since it adds an entire new dimension of complication that I don't, personally, want to have to deal with. I think about it as the 2 empires in a vacuum.



AzraelJahannam said:


> Just curiosity, cause you have the resources to work this out, or at least give a basic estimate, how would a Titan work into this? Like, a Warhound titan, or a Reaver or Warlord? Or hell, what about an Imperator or Warmonger class? Even Warhound Titans eat Land Raiders for breakfast. Just curious.


Well, without doing the math, it takes 7 Ares pattern Land Raiders to take on a Warhound Titan and kill it in 1 turn. It would take 4 AT-ATs to kill 1 Ares Pattern Land Raider in 1 turn therefore by interpolation I'd have to say about 28 AT-ATs to take on 1 Warhound Titan. Again, *NO MATH* on this, just supposition.



AzraelJahannam said:


> Err, firstly, ... a bunch of Jedi stuff ... More Jedi stuff'


Sigh. I was hoping not to have to deal with this issue but Ok, I will. Give me a day or two and I'll put something together.


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## AzraelJahannam

Thanks for the supposition at least Daneel, helps me work things out in my mind's eye. I couldn't imagine what an Imperator class Titan must be like on the battlefield if a Warhound is already so blood hungry... Cripes


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## Daneel2.0

No kidding. The problem with the supposition is that, as I mentioned earlier, I'm still looking at the way the different shields work in the 2 systems. Since the Titans all use shields, I'm still not sure how the weapons would effect them.


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## Angel of Retribution

Everything we put down here is assumption and guess work. What is put on paper doesn't make it reliable, even if it looks good. It all really comes down to personal preferance, so all my assumptions are as good as your stats and examaning them closer won't prove anything right or wrong! So GO IMPERIUM!!!


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## Red Orc

Angel... the guy said several times that there were lots of variables and that it was impossible to work out the outcome. And with all necessary respect, your opinion that the Imperium would win is _not_ based on any evidence. Daneel has been trying to provide some comparisons for those that want them (including me), and your _preferance_ for 40k is really just _prejudice_, in other words "pre-judging". Your loyalty to the Imperium would be noted, were it real, but it isn't.

To coin a phrase, which will I'll grant you be of limited use, "the opinion has no stopping power against the ion cannon" (General Giah, during the Trellmort Incident).

:trying to be fair here cyclops:


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## Angel of Retribution

Yeah...i know, just trying to stir up shit i guess (i told you i thrived on conflict)... ... ...sorry, i'll stop now...


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## Red Orc

OK, fair enough, this is a wargaming forum after all. Just in this case, I think you shot (at) the messenger.

:blue hatted cyclops:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i believe the SW univeres' main weapon in this battle would be their ability to adapt tech very quickly. the first few battles would be tough with most of it being fought in space but after they get the asses handed to them on the ground once or twice they would adapt VERY quickly and them woh betide the space marine that gets hit by a rail gun that shuts down his armor and melts through it! i can just see Vader standing over mephiston who is on his knees fighting to breath while his throat is crushed by Vader's force choke. talk about dramatic picture right there. meanwhile behind them you see Stormtroopers in a new bulkier set of armor letting loose with rail guns and Darktroopers jetpacking over the battlefield doing whatever they do lol GO VADER!


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## Godefroii

Few words

1-titans
2-huuuuudge battle barges
3-planetary bombardment
4-Space marines
5-bilions upon bilions of regular troops ( IG )
6-Space marines
7-better technology
8-Great fanatism 

Adapt tech very quickly?? yeah-it must be veeery quickly if we see how many planets battle ready SW have and how many for example worlds imperium may mark for "exterminatus"


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## Dessel_Ordo

@Godefroii: 1-we already agreed that Titans would dominate the battlefeild and require 28 or so AT-AT's to take down a Warhound (not mentioning the bigger ones)
2-sorry, but Star War's ships are bigger, more powerful, better sheilded and possesing longer range weapons
3-once again, sorry, but we have already agreed that Star Wars has planetary sheilds MORE than capeable of catching anything an Imperium fleet could throw down... and with the Empires ships having bigger, badder guns have a bigger badder scarier planetary bombardment
4-given
5-Stormtroopers are about the same... and dwelling in a galaxy that can take 365 trillion beings killed in stride (and keep fighting), the IG would be equaled in number within a few years of warfare
6-already mentioned that
7-no, the Empire has better, faster advancing tech, and is not afraid to adapt/move foreward like the Imperium
8- O.K. you have that one, but it only plays in a little bit

now that that is done, heres an interesting thought: the Vong War lasted about 5 years, it was a 40k style war, hundreds if not thousands of worlds crushed out of existence, trillions lost on one side, the other on the brink of extinction when the war ended (if a living planet hadnt ran off with the last few thousand survivors, the Vong would have been wiped out). Within 2 years of losing badly, the entire Star Wars galaxy, Imperial Remnant included (yeah, Empire kept on losing for a while in the books, then got shoved into a region probably a little bigger than what the Ultramarines area), teamed up, and tooled up, they started pumping out troops at IG like rates, with weapons and tactics designed to specifically combat the vong, they made War Droids and special capitol vessels to combat the Vong, and new marks of almost every fighter craft they possesed, once again, geared towards fighting the Vong.
Now, the Vong used bio-tech, their projectiles were small, razor boddied and winged bugs, which would keep turning around and coming at you until you killed the bug (there were other varients of this bug), they had a slave army (BIG) and as they captured people, they implanted them with mind-controlling parasites which would add the person to the slave army. Their ships could generate a small black hole for sheilding, and spat molten rock (which could destroy sheilds within 2 to 3 hits on a small scale (fighter craft) 8 to 10 on a large scale (capitol vessels)) also, that sheilding black hole could be used to "eat" a sheilded vessels sheild in one pass (if it is a close enough pass)
The Star Wars galaxy adapted their tech to counter all that AND MORE in the space of 2 years, and _most_ of the inhabitants accepted the extreme militirization, in fact they accepted and embraced it.
So... fighting the Imperium would take much less adaptation, therefore would be easier and quicker. The Empire isnt a democracy, in fact, it was a Sith run Dictatorship, therefore, Palpatine could simply up impressment and recruitment methods, perhaps even re-instate cloning programs to match 40k's troop counts fairly quickly. It would not take more than a year, year-and-a-half tops to adapt to and match the imperium.
Granted, there would be very few if any counters to Super-Heavies and Space Marines. And that first 1 to 1.5 years would be pretty rough for the Empire.
However, after that, IMHO, it would be a knock-down drag-out, bloody-ass, merciless, no-prisoners, no-holds-barred, B.A.M.F war.

just some thoughts, trying to put things more into perspective :mrgreen:


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## Daneel2.0

Dessel_Ordo

Couldn't have said it better myself :good:


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## KellysGrenadier

And then there's like, tangible people with their S100 Sledge Hammers (Assault 2, re-roll to hit, rending, pinning)


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## AzraelJahannam

Vader - "You have underestimated the power of the force foolish vampire-spawn" *Tightens force choke on Mephiston's throat.*

Mephiston - "Choke... Choke, Cough.... Choke... Choke....... Screw this." *Burns out Vader's mind with his eyes, Disembowels him with a sweep of his coruscating force blade and extinguishes his reeling soul before it can attempt to form a force ghost, then punches his hand into Vader's chest. Watches as Vader's corpse crumbles to the ground, his armor shorting out, as he drinks the steaming blood from Vader's still beating heart, clenched tightly in his fist, a small smile upon his crimson lips.*


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

Vader- eerie breathing as he watches mephiston die

Mephiston- "choke choke choke....For...the...EMPEROR!" he brings his force blade up in an attempt to disembowl Vader. Vader, with a flick of his wrist, nealty slices off mephiston's hand at the wrist with his lightsaber and the blade drops to the floor.

Vader- " I am done with you." He clenches his fist. Mephiston gasps as he feels his windpipe crushed and then his lungs and soon his hearts follow, popping like fresh fruits under a grox's foot. Mephiston's lifeless body topples to the ground as his ruptured body weeps rivers of blood. Vader looks up from the corpse and strides away.

Fett leaps behind a fallen column as lasfire rips towards him. four other mandalorians crouch beside him, his command squad. He smiles at his second in command Jarel,"Tenacious arent they?" Jarel laughed as did the rest of his squad.

Fett- "Lets finish this." Jarel tossed a handful of thermal detonators over the column. they heard a loud bang and screams and leapt over the column blasters blazing.

Colonel Creg of the Krieg regiment watched from his point on the battlefield as the mandalorians picked his men apart piece by bloody piece. he saw a squad vault over a fallen column and slaughter a squad of his men. they had broken through his men's defences and he snorted as he watched them sweep through the breaches with stormtroopers quickly behind like an endless tide with whole squads equipped with jetpacks flying over tanks and pillboxes and dropping charges on them from above or ripping through imperial gaurd with their blasters. he checked the charge on the lasrifle he had taken from a fallen trooper. he looked at the men behind him, "FOR THE EMPEROR!" he cried and ran down the hill towards the tide of men firing from the hip. his men were suddenly with him and keeping pace until one on his right was blasted of his feet. a plasma blast killed a score of stormtroopers who died screaming as they melted. but that was the end he was hit in the gut and he spun as he fell. he watched his men get ripped to shreds. a mandalorian walked up and picked up the plasma gun, he turned to the trooper behind him, "take this to command." the trooper nodded and ran off. the mandalorian knelt beside him, his squad keeping a respectful distance away. "Does it hurt?" Creg caughed up blood, "Faceless bastard." Fett sighed and took his helmet off revealing his face to the colonel who tried to push himself away in fear. "This is what a Sarlaac's stomach acid can do to you Colonel." Colonel Creg spat in disgust and fear at the Mandalorian's hideously scared face and pitifully missed. the Mandalorian laughed as he put his helmet back on, "We're finished." and then shot him in the head.


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## AzraelJahannam

tsk tsk, the point is to continue from where the last one ended off, however, I won't hold that one against you. 

As the Mandalorian strode away from the ruined Krieg Colonel, he cocked his head slightly to the side, his battle helmet detecting for the first time the sound of the faint whistling of an earthshaker shell cutting through the air. His mind had a millisecond to comprehend the significance of the light pitch before his world exploded in a firestorm of scything shrapnel and terrific explosions. The world about him rocked with the concussion of the titanic blasts, shuddered as if struck repeatedly by the fists of an angry God. Men simply disappeared around him, liquefied bodies burnt to ash before they could begin to fall to the ground. Friend and foe were consumed in the brutal hellfire, the entire battlefield reduced to ash and ruins. The scarred Mandalorian gasped slightly as a piece of shrapnel the length of his arm cleaved through his prosthetic left leg, severing it completely at the knee. He fell into the trench behind him just as the world above him was consumed in a white-hot inferno; promethium-infused shells exploding in expanding fireballs, scorching all within their radius. Slowly the lone survivor dragged himself through the trench. He had suffered much worse. Wracked with pain, he tumbled into the runoff from the surrounding network of trenches, the muddy, but cool water soothing his tortured body as the heat overwhelmed his suits defenses. Centimeter by centimeter, meter by meter, he dragged himself back behind his own lines, until he reached the heat-scorched, but otherwise unharmed shape of his beloved Slave II. Braving the storm of shrapnel and fire about him, the lone Mandalorian stood and hobbled to his craft, using the remains of a buckled lasrifle as a crutch as he hopped over the blistered and scorched earth. Finally he reached the hatch, opening it remotely with the display from within his helm, and dragged himself into the safe and welcoming confines. Shedding his battle helm, he buckled himself swiftly into his ship, and quickly ran through the takeoff procedure before burning his thrusters and rocketing from the God-Forsaken planet. The ships above confirmed his suspicions, and he began the calculations for light-speed, Cyclone and Viral Torpedoes hurling past him in the first stages of Exterminatus, Continent wide firestorms already expanding across the battlescarred waste of Corruscant, irregardless of the last artillery company of the failed assault that had only minutes before wiped out his small strike force. Shaking his head slightly, he shrugged, then smiled, his lips tugging at the pink scar tissue that etched his face. So one empire has fallen... There is still an entire Imperium to discover... And there is always... Always need of a Bounty Hunter.

(No one, and I mean NO ONE kills Boba on my watch)

Props to the FETT!!

P.S. (Off topic) I hate how Lucas had Jango killed... Not even one Jedi downed by him in that final battle... The Greatest Mandalorian to have ever lived to that point... *Shaking with anger*


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

Commander Tyreel watched Master Yoda carefully. the old jedi master twitched and almost toppled over. "Coruscant has fallen..." The commander was about to respond when a hollogram flickered on showing Lord Vader's form. "Has the Imperium taken the bait Commander?" The clone commander swallowed he still didnt like the idea of fighting side by side with the Sith and the Empire but it had to be done. "Yes they have bombed Coruscant just as predicted." millions dead and just for a feint even for him it was hard to swallow. "Good.." said Vader, "The Cadian Gate has fallen to the Empire, The Emperor will be pleased. Me and my men will rendezvous with you at Ultramar Commander." and then the hologram died. the Galactic Alliance's fleets met on the outskirts of Ultramar to find heavy resistence. Commander Tyreel met with Lord Vader on his personal flagship the Executioner. "Commander i have altered our plans, no planet is to be left alive. We do not need to waste our men, we will simply bombard each planet from existence until we reach Macragge." Commander Tyreel nodded his head, "Then we show these Ultramarines what our engineers have cooked up for them." Vader turned his head to look fully at the commander, it was the most horrifying senseless look he had ever seen, "Indeed commander." The skies of Macragge were full of burning ship debris falling from space and lancing fire from the star destroyers that had come low to the planet to provide air support. Commander Tyreel fired his new Rail Gun at a space marine who was charging at him gun blazing. the bright round tore into the marine and immediately shut down his armor before completely melting his insides. He checked the HUD on his vsor to see how the battle was going elsewhere. On his right he could see Master Yoda in the distance leaping between space marines, cutting off heads and disembowling others. On his left Lord Vader was striding through bolter fire, each round coming close to hitting him but never even touching him. He cut off a marine's arms and grabbed his helmet and tore it off. he put his hand over the marine's head and suddenly a red lightning began to creep from the marine's head to Vader's body. Force Drain, thought Tyreel. the marine aged in a matter of seconds and fell over a dead husk of what he used to be. Vader, filled with the marine's lifeforece, bounded across the battlefield with renewed vigor and cut down all in his path as he made his way towards a towering marine with huge power fists.



p.s. i agree with you and jango fett's fate. i think both fetts got killed off to easily and too fast, but in the books they definately live longer and it explains why what happened happened. in one book it states that boba does survive the sarlaac by using a thermal detonator and he is found burned and scared in the desert by another bounty hunter who takes him in and takes care of him. as for jango he was a broken man by the time he got killed which is a total bummer. i love the mandalorians though they are hard fucking core.


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## Daneel2.0

Feeling triumphant, if slightly inconvenienced by his wounds, Fett accessed the Galactic Wide Holo Net, feeling the need to check on his remaining people, scattered to the winds doing what Mandalorians always do - fight. Much to his surprise he discovers that the planet Corruscant was simply a world wide trap. Unknown to the so called Imperium of Man a Sector Fleet of Tremendous size waited on the outskirts of the system, far beyond the pathetic sensor range of the Battleships even now raining death on an already dead world. Hundreds of Super Star Destroyers, Thousands of Star Destroyers and Millions of attack craft of every description waited for the signal to begin what would be the largest space battle of recorded history.

The seconds ticked by, followed by the minutes. Then at high noon, Galactic Central Time, all through the galaxy a massive coordinated attack began its greusome task. The complete obliteration of every shipyard and every ship capable of leaving a planet in the entire Imperium. It didn't happen all at once, but as the day finally came to a close the Imperium found itself in increasingly desperate straights. For if the Empire should destroy all of the shipyards, those precious man made satellites, the Imperium would exist only in the memory of scattered individual worlds strung like isolated pearls through the vastness of space.

Finally word reaches the tattered survivors of this horrid conflict. Victory has been achieved. The Imperium has no remaining vessels capable of space flight. REJOICE! For now the hard work begins. The work of lifetimes - the assimilation of countless worlds into the new Dual-Galactic Empire. 

Boba Fett sighs, "Well," he thinks to himself, "I wonder if my number for Emperor Palpitine is still good?".


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## Daneel2.0

CRAP - Beaten to the punch!

Nice work BlackApostleVilhelm. I notice we went the same way with the feint. It worked against the Vong after all 

PS. I too hate what happened to Jango. It sucked rocks.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

indeed he was freaking tight, a tragedy really, but then agains mace windu was a damn good fighter but i think jango didnt care anymore.
dont go anywhere people cuz im going to bed but i will be back tommorrow and we will continue this battle of ages.


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## AzraelJahannam

Inhale... Exhale... Inhale... *thought* 'Padme....'. His weapon a blur of light... Bolts just barely deflected by his force shield... 'It is so lonely on this side...' A marine in front of him... Parry the crackling sword, rotate with the movement, slight application of the force... knocks him just off balance... upward arc... The marine totters.. comes apart down the middle... Crimson mist and cauterized flesh... Move on. 'It has been so long... alone...'. Another marine, same blue armor... but this one is different, there is a power to him... Not with the force, more subtle... The power of authority... The weathered face turns to regard his... Old eyes... But bright with battle fury. He levels giant coruscating fists slung with dual bolters... Each bolt seems to fly at the speed of a fist towards him... dodge to the left, focus and block, continue advancing... dodge... block... The rain of bolts continue... So many... A sharp pain in his left arm, a graze... No detonation... Finally, within range... The weathered Marine bellows... intelligible... Swings his fists... so slow... Parry, reverse with the impact, lunge and thrust... Precisely placed, the blade passes through the face of the marine, out the back of his head. The fists fall heavily, the giant falls loosely to his knees, slides off the lightsaber... crumbles. Screaming... Screaming blades... Turn... Females, pale, fanatical, scantily clad... Screaming... pierced with devotionals... Swinging large... chain bladed swords... They twist and turn... Maintaining their momentum... Many of them... Block the first thrust... The blade explodes, throwing steel teeth in every direction... Focus... Gather strength... Burn them all... Crack... 'Crack?'... Turn... Just in time to see shimmering whip snake at blinding speed towards own head... Too close already... The whip connects... Blinding pain shoots through face... down neck... Spine... paralyzes senses... Can't move... Can't avoid descending blades... 'Padme... Soon...'

The mistress looks on as her screaming charges descend upon the paralyzed black armored figure. Their grotesquely large eviscerators tear great bloody chunks of flesh and metal from the abomination. Within moments all that is left are twitching, twisted remains... She cracks her whip once more... Drive them back into the fray, towards the advancing troopers. They say the Cadian Gate has fallen... And that doing so has incited the attention of the Traitor Legions upon the invaders... Perhaps fighting two fronts will slow the heretic usurpers. The mistress turns once more to the task at hand, and watches as her charges hurl themselves headlong into the battle lines of the advancing troopers. None of them will survive, but such is a blessing, to die the martyrs death, to finally bask in the radiance of our immortal Emperor.

Yeah, true say, Jango was pretty messed up by then. Doesn't the two books Tales of the Bounty Hunters and Tales From Mos Eisley's Cantina both have stories that include Boba during his escape and after he escapes the Scarlak? If I remember right the acid from the Skarlak messed with his genetics too right? Poor bastard was in pretty bad condition afterwards. Glad he recoveres though. Too bad Lucas maintains that he died in his eyes.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

Tyreel wathces in horror as Vader is torn to pieces by almost naked women. he turns to locate yoda and sees him heading a small squad of jedi masters racing towards what looked to be a large temple. Tyreel let loose his jetpack, his squad following, to give the jedi support. as they get closer the resistence gets more and more fanatical the marines throwing themselves to their deaths, to protect what thought Tyreel. suddenly there was a flash of light and one of the jedi was lifted into the air and his body was crushed as if by a giant fist. "Focus your fire on the librarian!" shouted Tyreel. the librarian bellowed a challenge to the reest of the jedi but they all stepped back with the exception of master yoda. the ancient jedi limped forward and bowed "Die you must" and with that he flung himself at the librarian. Even Tyreel with his enhanced senses could not follow the battle such was the speed and ferocity. suddenly yoda's lightsaber was stuck in the marine's chest puncturing one of his hearts but before the jedi master could pull it out a huge fist knocked him off his chest. as the old jedi pulled himself up the rest of them hurled themselves at the librarian who, although gravely injured, killed all but two of them who then proceeded to cut him to pieces. Tyreel and his squad rushed further into the temple and pulled up short at the sight in front of them. "Patch me through to the Emperor and Kaminoans, we have found a primarch."


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## Fluff'Ead

SW uses *light beams* as blades

40k uses *chainsaws*


40k wins in terms of manliness.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Fluff'Ead you *DUMBASS*, a lightsaber is a blade of pure energy focused through crystals, the traits of the crystal (ruby, diamond, corusca gem ect ect ect) determines most of the other traits. A lightsager uses energy, NOT LIGHT. If it used light, it would be a lasgun...

Another trump card is the nano-virus, this virus kills within minuites of contracting, and uses genetic markers to kill only specific beings, therefore, any large group of beings with lots of shared DNA (i.g. Space Marines) can be wiped out very quickly, en masse. Furthermore, only an ounce, or less, of the blood from any member of the group, makes the extermination very easy.

I agree with your guy's veiws on Jango, and Boba... yea Boba did have a family, then he fucked it up... yea he gets to be Mand'Alor, but then the Imperial Remnant dropped an assasin strain of the nano-firus (geared towards Fett) on Mandalore, so he is a ruler who can no longer set foot on his capitol (besides, a LOT of the surviving CLones (lots of the Spec. Ops. CLones deserted half-way through the clone wars, many had families (made possible by Kal Skirata and the Arc Nulls beating how to slow the aging of clones)) probbably died off, along with their families too :cray: ). So, capturing a primarch, a scout marine, any marine from a first-founding chapter, could kill off thousands of marines without a fight.

I would have fluff'ed this, but I'm not sure if mine is up to your guy's level (hint, follow link in my sig. and give feed-back, if I knew wether or not I am decent at all at this, I wouldnt have broken the chain/thread of breaking down the war fluffily... plz)


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## vorbis

i know jedi are cool and super fast but arnt lasers (from lasguns) traveling at the speed of light? even if they can block one which is beyond all comprehension ive never known the guard to only take one shots at a time.

also cant the marines just keep their envirosuits on, so even they do have a virus that could kill them, it wouldn't work as wouldn't get to them in first place (except stupid non helmet wearing sergeants of course buts that another topic)


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## Dessel_Ordo

the force tips them off to incoming shots... nano-virus got through enviro-seals on Fetts armor (strain of the virus was intended for the warrior strain of an insectoid race, so he didnt die from it)... Star Wars not being techno-phobic like the Imperium likely has better enviro-seals, and Mando's dont skimp on systems for their armor (or weapons), so it is safe to assume Boba's enviro-seals were better... therefore it would get through a space marines seals as well.


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## Daneel2.0

"The mistress turns once more to the task at hand, and watches as her charges hurl themselves headlong into the battle lines of the advancing troopers. None of them will survive, but such is a blessing, to die the martyrs death, to finally bask in the radiance of our immortal Emperor."

A dark shadow engulfed the land covering all in darkness. A voice, magnified louder that the frenzied battle surrounding them booms "New Citizens of the Empire! Behold your Emperor on his Golden Throne." A flickering of light from the Star Destroyer Flying overhead and an image of the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne of Terra appears 100s of stories tall in all his splendor. Crying with joy at the unexpected sight of their living god, the sisters fight all the harder, their fanaticism rising to peaks never before experienced. 

And then her world died.

The Emperor speaks "My faithful flock, lay down your weapons and pick them up no more against fellow humans. These newcomers have come to bolster our fearless armies against the depredation of the hated Xenos and the eternal foe Chaos. Embrace them, Joint with them and Fight Victoriously!

His image dissipates and the fighting, so furious moments ago, winds down to a confused mill of people on a war torn landscape. It was unthinkable, fight for someone other than the Emperor? How could such a thing be. But the Emperor said it - I saw it with my own eyes?

Slowly, in dribs and drabs, combat across the world ends. Over time though, the dribs grow to trickles then to great rushes as more and more of the Imperiums forces flow to recruitment stations all over the world. After all their's more than one way to skin a cat.

High above, in the Super Star Destroyer Executor the tech smiles. "The new and improved image editing software in this baby ROCKS!"


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## Autarch of Bahls

Daneel2.0 said:


> A dark shadow engulfed the land covering all in darkness. A voice, magnified louder that the frenzied battle surrounding them booms "New Citizens of the Empire! Behold your Emperor on his Golden Throne." A flickering of light from the Star Destroyer Flying overhead and an image of the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne of Terra appears 100s of stories tall in all his splendor.
> 
> 
> Embrace them, Joint with them and Fight Victoriously!


number one, the star destroyer wouyld be landing on the emperor to kill him, and secondly, who wants to fight when your high?k::victory::shok::fuck:


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## Autarch of Bahls

and, the reason star wars would fuck the Imperium of man is this: ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!!! you don't NEED to send a single trooper to the surface of the planet!! you SM dumshits!!!! "Well, surely the space marine power armour could withstand a few blaster bolts!!" unless the blaster bolts are the size of houses!!! yee who controls space controls the ground. "well, we'll hide under the ground!" DEATH STAR, anyone?!!??!?!?!?!?


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## Autarch of Bahls

anyone there?


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## Autarch of Bahls

does dessel_ordo have anything to add? throw out some stats to back me up!!!


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## Autarch of Bahls

and as for Yoda versus a librarian, there would only be two hits: yoda hits librarian; Librarian hits floor. end of story... and yoda's sword wouldn't get stuck in the librarians armour, either. it would cut it's way through his bitch ass til death was achieved.


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## Autarch of Bahls

also, i would appreciate someone not posting on how splendid the emperor is. if you get your jollies off from the sight of dead bodies, that's your own problem. i like to stay away form things like this. also, you might enjoy writing things like " in all his splendor" when referring to _him_, but i like to say "in all his assorted juices of decomposition." mine is far more accurate.


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## Autarch of Bahls

that shit kinda pisses me off.


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## Dessel_Ordo

well, first off I am neutral....

but hell, hiding under a rock wont protect you from the planet going boom...
then again, a thunderhawk slamming into the conduits (after flying up the exhaust pipe... Lemiwinks style, but more willing to enter) that go boom would kill the death star.:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

also, while the Empire _does_ have space supperiority, well, they tend to be arrogant asses, would under-estimate the Imperium, and lose something big (death star, again, lol)

nice use of repentias though, distract the storm-troopers (no poonage at the Imperial academy, contrary to what recruitment posters may say:














, lol, lets see the IG beat that)

and why end the war so soon guys, the loss of billions (maybe even trillions, again) would be very fun to read about... 40k counter-fluff, I CHOOSE YOU!!!!!!!!


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## Autarch of Bahls

where do i sign up?!


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## Autarch of Bahls

oh, sorry... eheh...


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## Dessel_Ordo

O.K. autarch... that should be enough to get the non-neutral 40k favoring ppl to get their asses moving and get something that could give them an edge making this, once again a heated and equal debate thread

juices of decomposition would be Nurgle... not Emperor of Mankind (he is still only at the stages of peeling skin and maggoty goodness)




Heres a thought that may give 40k some hope... Adeptus Mechanus is likely tinkering with several DAoT war machines they have fond... maybe Palpy will convince them that the tech they found is in fact, old enough to put back into circulation...

:crazy:lololol, I need to get back to neutral without being inflamatory again... now that I have sufficiently pissed off both sides again... lololol:crazy:


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## Autarch of Bahls

to begin with, the thunderhawks would have to dodge the thousands of TIE fighter (courtesy of Sienar Fleet Systems) and then dodge the thousands of turbolasers. also, what if they empire pulled up to Mars a did a death star drive-by? how would the emperium take that? like a bitch?! or would they just take it on the chin?


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## Daneel2.0

Autarch of Bahls said:


> number one, the star destroyer wouyld be landing on the emperor to kill him, and secondly, who wants to fight when your high?k::victory::shok::fuck:


I disagree. A "live" puppet emperor is much more useful that a more dead but martyred one. After all, the SW would want to take the planets eventually since they are usable territory.



Autarch of Bahls said:


> and, the reason star wars would fuck the Imperium of man is this: ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT!!!!!!!! you don't NEED to send a single trooper to the surface of the planet!! you SM dumshits!!!! "Well, surely the space marine power armour could withstand a few blaster bolts!!" unless the blaster bolts are the size of houses!!! yee who controls space controls the ground. "well, we'll hide under the ground!" DEATH STAR, anyone?!!??!?!?!?!?


No you don't need to, but it is useful to do so. Orbital bombardment destroys resources that you may want to claim. Sure, it is an option if making that claim is more damaging that it's worth so bombardment is always an option, but one that I don't think they would use first.

The exception would be planet killing. I could see the Empire broadcasting the complete destruction of a couple of planets so that the Imperium would get the general idea. Hell, Abbadon used that EXACT technique to get planets to surrender to him without a shot fired. The planets just knew his ship could destroy their planet and rather then die, they surrendered.


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## Autarch of Bahls

and it's not that i'm biased, i just know i'm right. the empire would win, the emperium would lose. the sith wouldn't help the chaos or the space marines, they would just watch everybody die and laugh heartily whilst they sip mamosa on the beaches of Tatooine. what, Tatooine doesn't have beaches? fine then, sipping mamosa in a kiddy pool...


are you happy?


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## Autarch of Bahls

also the Adeptus Mechanicus would fear that the empire has control over the machine spirit and would be too busy trying to win it's favor to do anything. they would also have alot of explaining to do to the emperor.


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## Autarch of Bahls

could the Astronomicon cloud the sensors of the empires ships? if so, then they might stand a small, small chance...


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## Autarch of Bahls

im trying out different signatures. which one do you like best?


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## Autarch of Bahls

i'll try to paint aprettier peicture on what will happen. yoda(see pic below) will be all nicey nicey and sweet talk Mr. Maggot(the Emperor) into a truce deal and they will live happily ever after... until yoda trips balls and cuts up the emperor...


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## Daneel2.0

No, what likely happens is the Empire takes it in the ass a couple of times on the ground, realizes their strength is in space and kills off their space capability. Then they pick planets apart 1 at a time until there is no more Imperium.


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## Autarch of Bahls

picture below


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## Autarch of Bahls

Hahahhahahahahaaha!!!!!! Welcome To The Dark Side!!!!!!


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## Autarch of Bahls

hm-hm... sorry. well, it certainly is good to see you have come to your senses.


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## Dessel_Ordo

kiddie pool?!?!?!?!?!?!??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11:angry: :angry: :angry: :headbutt:

sith would have gold plated super pool, that legends the Heffs grotto in epicness

holding of ground is a good point

did the posters encourage YOU to join up on the Empires side?


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## Daneel2.0

I think you need to re-read my posts with your eyes OPEN this time


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

wow what happened to my thread? so to get it started again the Imperium would take a fat Empire cock in the mouth and then when SW was done with them they would shoot them in the head...hopefully that gets people started. i liked the story telling thing going on too


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## Autarch of Bahls

who, me? i have read this entire thread. i have toiled long and hard and in the end the truth is this. i have forgotten everything i have read. i can do that, i am evil.


I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!!!!!


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## Autarch of Bahls

and amen to the "COCK in the MOUTH"


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## Dessel_Ordo

lol, you guys both have the same veiw, for generally the same reason... its just that there is a difference somewhere though, so minute, so tiny it is almost impossible to see (so impossible that I know its there but cant see it). And it has you two bitchin at each other right now... lol unish:unish::drinks::friends::sarcastichand::alcoholic::gimmefive::russianroulette::smoke: ?


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## Daneel2.0

So I *was* doing a stat comparison between Vader (beginning of episode IV) and Brother Varnius the Librarian. Is anyone interested in that or am I wasting my time ?

As for story arc, I've put 2 down with nobody posting a continuation of EITHER. Until I get some play you're out of luck


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## Autarch of Bahls

sure, hit me up with Vader versus the Librarian. also, could you do Bane just for kicks? he is more powerful than Vader anyways...


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## Daneel2.0

I hesitate doing named 40K characters unless I have the stats for them. I'll look for bane, but no guarantees.

EDIT: I have the same hesitation with named SW characters, but I happen to have a Cannon Vader stat so .....


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## Dessel_Ordo

I think we can all agree that that was a childish and time-wating tangent, lwts all be freinds again and try to be civil, I know _I_ was jsut joking around...

yea character match ups would be great

we can all be mature, besides everyone knows tha----------------


][
by order of the Inquisition, this user has been silenced and an exterminatus has been leveled against his, um, er, town... to supress the propogation of the imagery and ideals of the enemies of the Imperium of man​


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## Autarch of Bahls

hey, that's not fun-----


][​
This user has been silenced in order to prevent the propogation of his- who the hell cares why.

WE ARE THE INQUISITION!! ALL TREMBLE BEFORE US!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

--------------


][

By the order of the Inquisition of His Holy Name this user has been silen......---------------Hello?-------Is anyone there? This is Black Apos----ilhelm------This signal is very weak and i don------ch time so listen caref---y-----The war has laready begun-----d we are stuck-----middle----The Inquisition has at-----silence us but------failed------I have-----rescued by-----alorian cruiser on the o----rim of-----ky way------We MUST choose sides now or else al------ost------I have be-----my own ar----nd weapons-----the----erium has forsaken me-----did ten--------usand---ago---------------Empire has not------choose quickly my fr----or you will-----lost--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Dessel_Ordo

listens to Apostles transmission*...
...
...
...
good plan, 
_they_ could never find, or even hope to destroy all of us...
(p.s. do NOT ask how I got out, nevermore, nevermore, nevermore...)

*quickly stashes pwer armour, and puts on Neo-Crusader armor*


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

INCOMING TRANSMISSION



----------------------ther Daneel--------are you there?----------thi----s urgent------ire has need-----one on the inside------i emplore you to ai-----in this----erate time-------nd any others who would fi---------nst the Imperium of Man-----------end trans-------to the Mand------uiser Advent----------will be waiting-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




END TRANSMISSION


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Ever heard of boarding?


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## AzraelJahannam

Firsty... ugh.. wow... Autarch... double.. triple... quadruple posts?

Secondly... I just got home from work... its 4 in the morning... I'm just heading right to bed, too exhausted.

Thirdly, I love your posts everyone else, the story continuation gave me a good laugh, really brightened my day, tomorow I will add a little more to our perverse and defunct interpretation of the greatest battle of the [email protected]@@LOL*&#^*&!!!!!1111ROFL!!!111(frack I need sleep) !!!PWNAGE111*&^YOUR*#$MOMMA#%$!!!!

P.S. Worse comes to worse, Custodes slit Emperors throat, Star God materializes and squishes the entire Star Wars armada with a thought . Actually, I think tomorrow I will incorporate the Custodes in my post... The Empire attacking should be a good enough reason to stir their lazy asses off of Terra... So don't go away!


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## Daneel2.0

Ok. I dug through my stuff and finally found statistics concerning Space Marines, Terminators and Psychic powers. A couple of points.
1. Space marines get a bunch of advantage from implants. These include a size bonus, the ability to resist heat, cold, poison, low oxygen environments, high and low gravity environments. They are light sleepers and can see in low light conditions. They also have their wounds close faster and heal at double standard rates. Now, not all space marines get all of these advantages, it depends on how high up the marines are going to get. Some implants you only get upon reaching a certain level of rank.
2. This DOESN’T make Space marines “walking pillboxes” (as one poster put it). It does make them tougher, but statistically only about 10% tougher. 
3. Terminator Armor provides a DR 150% that of Space Marine Armor. This means they are very hard to hurt and can shrug off the effects of most hand weapons. For instance, a max hit from a lasgun cannot hurt them in the system I’m looking at.

As to a fight between Lord Vader and Brother Varnius, Librarium Savant. Both are very advanced characters (the librarian is advanced to the second to last job in his category, the sith has 18 levels) at about the same relative experience, which is why I chose them.

Vader’s Melee weapon use is better, his ballistic weapon use is better. His strength is the same and his toughness is the same. His agility is better, Intelligence is the same, Perception is worse Willpower is slightly worse (not enough to alter bonuses but enough to alter percentages) and his fellowship is slightly worse.

Now is where things get interesting. I am considering psychic powers and force powers separate but equal in terms of their ability. There are differences too intrinsic to each system for me to change without completely re-writing the systems, and if I did that, it would just be my opinion and I wanted something better than that.

As far as buffs are concerned, Vader is basically geared for combat, no matter where that combat may occur (space battle, at range or in melee). He gets adds to his “wounds” and his strength and his speed. He gets defensive bonuses and attack bonuses that FAR outweigh the Librarians similar advantages. Varnius has the advantage in both utility and stealth. His powers allow him to fuzz technological sensors as well as psychic (force) detection, hide behind cover and heal himself or others. He also is VERY resistant to fear and mental control, which Vader relies on for his control of others, and can even affect the functioning of mechanical devices, which Vader REALLY relies upon. 

As far as attack options, they are remarkably similar. Both have a version of the Force Choking ability. Both have the ability to us telekinesis to hurl objects at the other. They both have limited ability to mess with time during combat (much like combat precognition). The differences are that Vader’s focus is on lightsaber use while Varnius can throw much more straight power at him (lightning attack, pure telekinetic force attack, sonic attacks)

Their armor is so similar that they were probably made by the same craftsman (although what Palpitine was doing in 40K I don’t know), personally I want to see a makers mark.

Weapons are different. First off, Vader doesn’t carry a ranged weapon in his profile which makes sense. Varnius does (bolter and lasgun). As for melee, Varnius carries a shock maul, Vader a lightsaber.

When it comes right down to it, this would be truly epic fight. It is possible, though not probable, that Varnius could take Vader from the shadow without being seen. Vader could, if nothing else, run away faster than Varnius could follow, maybe even follow in a tank. Varnius could hurt Vader in ranged combat, but not enough or fast enough not to get caught after firing about 2 shots. This would come down to melee and the lightsaber has the edge there - just not an overpowering one.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

But what about Mephiston? He was the one we were originaly comparing lol.


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## Daneel2.0

I know, but I dealt with this earlier. I don't have stats for him, so I don't feel comfortable making a numeric comparison


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Ok sorry my bad.


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## DaemonsR'us

Well done on the comparison Daneel, dont think your getting enough props for what your adding to the discussion


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## Daneel2.0

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Ok sorry my bad.


Don't worry about it, my comment wasn't meant to be negative. If it came off that way, sorry. It was late and I was tired :grin:

What I mean is that the special named characters of a system very often have abilities above and beyond the game system to which they belong. Mostly because the characters are written before the game system is. This means that they can have a slue of special abilities or unique qualities that aren't covered in the general rules.

I don't make comparisons for those characters because I don't want to take anything away from them in any way. It is my effort to be completely neutral regarding the fluff for both systems.

Now, as it happens the d20 system has stats for Vader (as he is at the beginnings of episode IV) which is the only reason I used him for comparison. 



DaemonsR'us said:


> Well done on the comparison Daneel, dont think your getting enough props for what your adding to the discussion


Well thank you. I appreciate that. This is something I'd never considered comparing before, even though I play both, and I like the mental exercise. 

I'm glad someone else likes the results of that exercise too :victory:


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## Dessel_Ordo

yea, tnx DaemonsR'Us, now I feel like some sort of herk to... Daneel sent me the full math hammer, and took pert of a few of my suggestions... and U'r right, I gotta give props to Daneel for the hammer... it is pretty well the fulcrum of the inteligentside of the debating on this thread.

Oh, any luck on the stats for Mandalorians Daneel?

(edited for clarity)


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## Daneel2.0

If you could drop me his table top stats, I could probably translate them into Dark Heresy and then into SW.

EDIT: To avoid copy-write issues just do it in email or PM


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## Autarch of Bahls

what about Bane i want to see a librarian get choked to death!!! and yeah, sorry for the spammage. i was really tired and impatient. also, couldn't vader nullify the ranged attacks by deflecting it with his lightsaber? the bolter would be hard to do, but hey, he could always just go matrix and uber-dodge it.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

as everyone made their way to the Empire's transports on Macragge the Ultramarines stood rooted to the ground in shock of what they just heard. all was eerily quite until the sound of blaster fire came from the Temple of Correction followed by a mounstrous roar of anger. six jet troopers flew out of the entrance of the temple, one with a vial full of flesh in his hand, firing their weapons on full auto. four jedi bounded out of the temple racing for the nearest transport. nobody expected to see what happened next, with a roar of anger Roboute Guilliman, primarch of the Ultramarines, ran through the entrance to the temple. "My sons! Kill these traitors!" the space marines obeyed without question and immediately opened fire on the storm and clone troopers. the Empire's forces, realizing their fake spell had been broken on their enemies, shot down those that were heading towards the transports. thousands of gaurdsmen and battle sisters died within the first few minutes as the transports picked up the last troopers and made their way back to their parent ships. a voice came over the speakers "This is Commander Tyreel, we have retreived what we had come here for. Let us pull our forces back before Guilliman can rally his forces and realize what is transpiring." The Emperor sat back on his throne and awaited Tyreel and Fett's communiques. Tyreel's came first, "Emperor Palpatine we have retrieved a piece of the primarch's flesh as commanded for the genolabs and the kaminoans unfortunately the primarch has awakened." Palpatine "Good work commander see to it personally that the sample gets to its destination." Tyreel "Yes sir, Tyreel out." Fett's Face came across the screen "Lord Palpatine Coruscant has fallen i request permission to rejoin my forces at Mygeeto and make my way to Caliban. We have been getting reports that the lost primarchs are returning. Caliban and the Lion are closest to Mygeeto and we would be needed there the most." Palpatine nodded "Permission granted General you may go." Fett's brow furrowed "Sir one last thing....what should we do about the other primarchs that have returned? Such as Russ, Corax, Vulcan ans Guilliman?" Palpatine grinned "Do not worry about them my friend, now go."


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## Autarch of Bahls

hey, why not Eldrad and Vader? his stats are thus:
Weapon Skill:5
Ballistic Skill:5
Strength:3
Toughness:4
Wounds:3
Initiative:5
Attacks:1
Leadership:10

or maybe, just maybe

The Avatar Of The Bloody-Handed God Kaela-Mensha Khaine​Weapon Skill:10
Ballistic Skill:5
Strength:6
Toughness:6
Wounds:4
Initiative:6
Attacks:4
Leadership:10
He is the living incarnation of a god and is fearless, his body is fashioned from burning iron flooded with glowing magma so he can be cut, but not killed by lightsabers and/or flame weapons, and he can shoot a "nimbus of burning psychic energy" thats Strength:8 Armour Penetration :1​


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## Autarch of Bahls

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> "This is Commander Tyreel, we have retreived what we had come here for. Let us pull our forces back before Guilliman can rally his forces and realize what is transpiring." The Emperor sat back on his throne and awaited Tyreel and Fett's communiques. Tyreel's came first, "Emperor Palpatine we have retrieved a piece of the primarch's flesh as commanded for the genolabs and the kaminoans unfortunately the primarch has awakened." Palpatine


"good work, now get your asses off that bitch before we pull a death star drive by. YEEEAAHHH BOOOOOY!!!" Tyreel "what the fuck have you been smoking, Emperor?" "Yoda has enlightened me upon the medicinal uses of 'Dagobah Greens.'"


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## Autarch of Bahls

great point though on the reverse-engineering of space marines. for all there glory and splendor, they aren't actually a separate race. they were manufactured for war and are hence quite replicable. if the Caminoans were to research this, they would undoubtedly create something far superior to the space marines. like the SPACE BLACK BERETS. uuhuhuhuhuhhuh... that made my spine tingle...


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## Dessel_Ordo

... I do beleive that may have been more intended for the nano-virus...
we'll see


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## Daneel2.0

Dessel_Ordo said:


> Oh, any luck on the stats for Mandalorians Daneel?


Just found Boba Fett today. I'm working on translating him into Dark Heresy so that I can compare stat blocks. This will include his armor as well as the illegal weaponry he carries.

I'll work on Eldrad and Bane, though neither are Imperium forces. Khaine is one that I think I'll skip. It should be pretty obvious that in melee he would win against any of the forces in SW. As for his invulnerability to lightsabers, I don't think so. He isn't immune to the lascannon, and a lightsaber is basically a lascannon on a stick :biggrin:


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## Dessel_Ordo

schweet :mrgreen:


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## Autarch of Bahls

thanx dude. your a real nice guy...


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## Autarch of Bahls

just thinking though, if the emperor dies will the astronomicon even work anymore, or will the choir of unsanctioned psykers be enough to keep it going?


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## AzraelJahannam

the choir would stop working without his guidance, but if he became the Star God... Well, lol... The Imperium wouldn't really have to worry about it anyways as the Star God would basically take care of them like his childrens, eheh


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## Autarch of Bahls

but Ynnead, the Eldar god of the dead is supposedly THE most powerful of all gods, since he carries with him the souls of an entire race. so Nya!!


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## AzraelJahannam

Errr... I was just stating fact, not getting into a my God (c*ck) is bigger than yours contest.


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## Daneel2.0

Holy Crap! ! ! I was online trying to find statistics for other Jedi and found out that the "religion" Jedi is the 4th largest in England ! ! !

Unreal.


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## AzraelJahannam

The transport dropships sped to their parent ships, landing in their respective docking bays, and disgorging their troops. One dropship in particular is scanned closely by remaining undamaged ground sensors to the Super Star Destroyer hanging in orbit above. Upon the eerily silent planet below, an enraged Primarch literally spits acid in his furious anger.
"No strike craft, no barges, not even a single thunderhawk left in working repair?!" Guilliman rages to himself. Then with renewed self control, his features return to their cool, calculating demeanor... "So much has changed... there is so little time to act, to learn of this changed Imperium." Effortlessly he strides to the control panel built into the wall of the Ultramarines tactical central. Punching a few of the runes, giving him direct feed to an astropath, he begins speaking. The astropath then in turn sending the signal to a remote, but vitally important recipiant. "...Yes...requesting stri---... force -----struction of ---sitive material... ---ordinate----- 2034 34084 23490... Identified as ene--------ag ship...---tmost urgency.... Guilliman out." With those final words he turned swiftly from the tactical screen and began organizing the mobilization of an entire chapter's fleet from around the surrounding systems.
Unknown to him and his ground forces, a vast Imperial flotilla had already been mobilized and was already moving to intercept the Empire fleet as it prepared for light travel. A mighty fist of the Imperial Navy quickly closed with the Empire ships through the warp, running a daring gauntlet, only hastening even more as the Astropaths received the encrypted message and sent it to the Imperial flagship at it's head. As the multitude of ships broke from the warp, materializing into the material realm, they formed before the might of Commander Tyreels Strike Force. Immediately shots were exchanged. The immense guns of both sides roared, and ships shook as fields were stripped, exploding with the sheer mass of firepower. Great clouds of fighters were ejected from both sides ships, TIE fighters sparred with Furies and Star Hawks around the giant behemoths who also sparred with one another, but at immeasurably greater proportions. Fusion cores ruptured, and great waves of debris and fire exploded amongst the stars. Yet almost invisible amongst the titanic fury of silent death in the cold blackness, an even darker shape disengaged itself from the Imperial flagship, no bigger than a Starhawk, and flared once with initial propulsion, then drifted quietly, but quickly in the frictionless void towards the Super Star Destroyer in the midst of the Empire flotilla. Avoiding sensor scan due to its insignificant size, and no active propulsion units in use, it sped towards the belly of the Super Star Destroyer and clamped itself to the shining steel skin, a whirring noise emanating almost softly from the area it attached itself to, then sending out a sharp, concise band of information straight to the tactical control of the Imperial Flagship.

On the bridge the Imperial Flagship, the Oberon Class Battleship Imperius Glorificerus, Admiral Kasver turned in his Command chair to the communications officer as his screen lit with the runes of an incoming message.
"Is it?..." He asked quietly, momentarily disengaging himself from the battle and the myriad of information and commands coursing through his conciousness.
"Yes Admiral, the package has engaged. Shall I have the astropath request initiation of Regicide Totalus from the most benevolent Lords of Terra?"
"No, we wait for confirmation of Purgatos Puritus. We can allow no chance of the sensitive material reaching their galaxy. No, we wait. Have the force retreat, we've accomplished what we came here to do, no need to sacrifice more of our ships in this fight, there will be time to strike in due time."

The Defense Officer of the Super Star Destroyer Burning Fist was momentarily distracted by the readings at the bottom of his control panel. Apparently a minor breach of deck 54 had taken place, yet no atmosphere had been lost. 'Damned stray torpedoes' He thought to himself, wondering what freak accident had allowed it to penetrate the immense ships shield at full strength. Muttering to himself as his attention reverted back to the main stream of data he ordered a repair droid and a squad of Clone Troopers to check the breach, and continued with his duties.

Clone Trooper 495834 grumbled to himself as he was roused from his bunk. He hadn't even been allowed a brief chance of combat at the surface of the planet they were now leaving behind, as his regiment had been kept in reserve in case of any serious counter attacks. There hadn't been any need for him to even touch the surface of the planet. Now, he is awoken from his scheduled rest period to make an unscheduled check of some random deck because the ships Defense Officer had the damn jitters. He formed up with the rest of his squad and they made their way to the lower levels, the ship rocking gently with the occasional shot that dissipated off of the formidable shield array. They jogged lightly to the coordinates given by their commanding officer, finding an empty operating room in the bio wing of deck 54. Looks like we were ousted for nothing 495834 muttered dourly to his squad Sergeant. Nodding his agreement, the Sergeant called in the all-clear through his helm that would make its way to the Defense Officer, and gave the order to move out, commanding the repair droid to stay and check for hull damage. Just as the Clone Troopers turned they heard a faint whirring noise emitting from the hull-side wall. Turning, they stopped for a moment, uncertain as to what to do. Suddenly a bright pinprick of light shone through a suddenly apparent prick of molten metal in the wall. the prick of molten metal became a line, which became a crescent, which became a full circle, its diameter longer than the height of a man. Trooper 495834 had a moment to let out a breath "Oh shit..." and then the circle of metal fell inwards. The hole that appeared behind the thin sheet of metal was pitch black, save the retracting plasma borer that had up to the tiny sliver of metal, burrowed and melted slowly through the Star Destroyer's massively thick hull. As the borer retracted into the darkness, the Clone Squad, rendered completely silent by the unimaginable sight before them, turned to one another. The Clone Sergeant raised his hand uncertainly to his helmet, and radioed in, priority, to command. "Sir.. uhh... We have a breach on deck 54... uhh... I..." And his head exploded in a red and gray mess. Trooper 495834 Caught a glimpse of immense black and gold armor in the darkness beyond, before finding himself hurling through the air, an impossibly agonizing pain blossoming in his stomach. He hit the wall of the operating unit hard, and slid to the ground. He looked down through a haze of pain. Where his stomach used to be, a ragged bloody hole bigger than his fist dominated the front of his armor. Looking up, through dimming eyes he witnessed what almost no other man had for the past 10 thousand years. Immense power armored shapes, six... no, seven of then, ducked through the gap in the wall. Intricate and and fearsome black and gold armor covered them from head to toe. In their gauntleted hands they bore immense shimmering halberds, upon each was mounted an arcane and compact firearm. They walked with the fluidity of men who seemed to defy the very laws of physics, their raw power seemed to ripple alike a tangible aura from each. Could these be the space marines he'd heard of from the other clones who had gone surface side?..."

Brother Revelian stepped through the circular opening the small, extraordinarily expensive stealth ship infused with xeno tech had created in the side of the enemy battle ship, and onto a true battlefield for the first time in over a millenia. Through his arcane rebreather he could smell the fresh blood spilt on the floor of the heretic vessel, and gave a brief prayer of thanks to the Emperor before joining his brothers in he small chamber, and took his bearings. All of the dimunitive white-armored humans lay upon the ground, broken. He hadn't even a chance to wet his blade yet. He looked to his brothers, and they in turn met his gaze through their helms, wrought in true perfection.
"The Emperor truly guides us, we appear to have breached the enemy medical deck. We all know what we must do. This is the first time one of our order has set foot upon the field of battle, covertly or not, in over a thousand years. To fail is to shame our entire adeptus. Let us move out Custodes, the enemy must already be aware of our presence, and failure is inconceivable. For the Emperor, my brothers."
"For the Emperor." Six voxcast voices replied in quiet unison. The seven armored pinnacles of humanity swept from the room, ignoring the dieing troopers. They were gnats. Toy soldiers beneath the feet of the Emperors Guard, the Imperium's true masters of the art of Death.

I'll be posting part two of this tomorrow, but frankly, between work and moving, I can't write anymore tonight, I am far too exhausted. Good night all.


----------



## Daneel2.0

Space marine and Mandalorian comparison finished. The long and short of it is this is just a continuation of the same kind of thing we are seeing across the board in SW vs 40K, with some surprises thrown into the mix for good measure.

When a direct comparison between two groups, at the same advancement level, you see is their attack is practically identical in both ranged and close situations. The armor and toughness of the SM is considerably better which means they can shrug off more hits than a Mandalorian. However, the Mandalorian can take more hits than the SM so this roughly balances out depending on the weapons that are fired. Lasguns or Blaster Pistols will be more dangerous to Mandalorians and Blaster Carbines and Heavy Bolters are more dangerous to Space Marines. heavy Blasters and Bolters are roughly equivalent when they are in armor.

Now, Space Marine armor is considerably better than I gave it credit for. I attribute this underestimation to my understanding of 40K tech and the table top game. I have since found a Dark Heresy description of Space Marine Armor which has changed my thinking concerning its utility. It still doesn't have the same magnitude, but is much better than I previously gave credit for.

Mandalorian armor (and by this I mean the Mandalorian Supercommando Armor as was worn by Jango and Boba Fett), by comparison, is MUCH better that Space Marine Armor. Not because of the amount of damage it can shrug off (the SM powered armor still has the better defense value - MSC armor is comprised of blast plates over vitals attached to a damage resistant flight suite) but because Mandalorian armor has about 7-9 different weapon systems, including a power weapon analog, armor penetrating missiles that fire upon contact in melee combat, a laser, a missile launcher, a flame thrower, you get the idea. These weapons are in addition to any weapon the troop chooses to carry in his hands since they are built into the armor. In addition it counts as a jet pack, is fully equipped for electronic warfare, has 360 degree vision . . . again you get the idea.

By my count Mandalorians win in ranged combat against tactical marines 3:2 and win against assault marines 2:1.

EDIT: Forgot to add that their rolls are different on the battlefield, making direct confrontation an unlikely prospect except in small numbers. As a fairly light mercenary force, Mandalorians are best suited to lightning strikes, surgical raids and the like. Marines, to the contrary, were made for the shock of battle and are best used wherever the fighting is hardest and fiercest. As such, Mandalorians would most likely encounter IG, Adeptus Mechanicus, and other such garrison or support troops (unless they screwed up). Space Marines would most likely encounter Storm Troopers at least initially. Eventually, once casualty figures were high enough to warrant the switch and production lines were established, they would face armies of increasingly armored and armed battle droids.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Do all Mandalorians wear that super-armour, you mentioned boba and jango, but i thought they were way better equipted than a 'normal' Mandalorian?


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## Daneel2.0

No, it's all pretty much the same. I say pretty much because each Mandalorian customizes his armor for his own uses adding weapons or tools as they see fit. Each comes standard with some of those things (like the jets, the flame-thrower, the whipcord and the knee rockets as well as the EW gear and the sense amplification) Even though they come with the armor all of the features are modular add ons that you pick the one you want.

The point is there is space for all that stuff.


----------



## Daneel2.0

In orbit high above the planet, day turned to night between one thought and the next. As though this event triggered the activation, an energy signature appeared, then another, then a wave of signatures, all streaming towards the great black citadel below. Somewhere in that smoke belching behemoth was a reactor control panel that must be reached and destroyed. Imperial spies report this action will initiate a chain reaction resulting in the destruction of the industrial production plant. The facilities supplies the war efforts of the Ultramarines in this corner of the world. Without it, the war engines of the Imperium should grind to a halt as replacement parts, replacement ammo and replacement war engines ceased being built. 

From the deck of the Star Destroyer Emperors Revenge Grand Admiral Daramius watched the icons of the drop ships descend towards the planet on their preplanned entry vectors. Guided by their droid brains, these pods were not spacecraft so much as artificially intelligent bombers which were to deliver the Mandalorian Raiders to the surface and then initiate a cluster bomb raid at high speed over the advancing front of Space Marines. The Grand Admiral had high hopes that this combined with the sabotage of the industrial facility would result in a reversal for the Empire’s Storm Troopers ground campaign. He was getting so tired of destroying planets from space. After the 2nd planet that had all its organic matter vaporized by turbo-laser fire from space, the novelty just wore off.

As the droids came level on their flight paths, the 15 Mandalorians cycled the air lock and activated their jump engines. At breakneck speeds, they descended to the ground just out of sight of the giant fortress down at the bottom of the hill. Quickly spreading out, the Mandalorians silence those few guards that came to investigate the falling lights. Disruptor fire completely drowned out by the bass rumble of the factory below. Moving across the rugged ground with the judicious use of jump jets, the 15 cross the distance long before a cry from missing guards could ring out. One quick stab from his force blades overrides the electronic lock on the fortress door and the 15 enter to the rising of the sun. 

“Commander, we have monitored an electrical spike on entryway 1413 causing mechanical failure. This constitutes an alpha level security breach.”
“Very good Neophyte Andrus. Report this to the Adeptus repair teams and assign Assault Sergeant Wolfus’ squad for protection.”
“Understood Commander. Sergeant Wolfus reports he has met with the repair team and his squad are escorting them to the door.”
“Very good. Keep me informed.”

Rushing up the corridor, the 15 figures in Mandalorian Supercommando Armor round the corner, directly into the startled eyes of a cyborg. The half man, half machine utters an oath and charges after only a fraction of a second hesitation. Unfortunately that hesitation is to prove fatal. The front Mandalorian executes a vicious knee strike into the armored stomach of the Techmarine. As his knee hits, an armor piercing rocket fires from the knee and, penetrating the marine’s armor, detonates blowing his metal infused spine into the face of the Assault Marine behind him. A threat warning screams into the Mandalorian’s ear and he activates his jump jets flying as fast as he can directly away from the advancing marines. A thermo-detonator lobs past his head in slow motion and the corridor is lit by white flame as the concussion flips men aside like dolls. Screaming in rage, Sergeant Wolfus slams his fist into Mandalorian just picking himself up off the floor. It punches through the front blast plate, through the back blast plate and powders a fist sized hole into the rock wall. Pulling his hand out of the dead man, he turns to see an unimaginable vision of slaughter. Fully half his squad is down while the other half is hard pressed fighting in the narrow corridor. Jumping into the fray, praises to the Emperor on his lips, he is spun around by some kind of heretical energy blast. Injured but not phased he demolishes the helmet, and consequently the head, of the Mandalorian that had somehow gotten behind him. 5 more energy blasts hammer into him from behind, and he falls, gasping for breath to fill lungs that no longer exist.

“Imperial spies . . . I’d kill them all if I could. They told us there wouldn’t be any Ultramarines here. They’re all supposed to be at the front!”
“HEY – Cut that talk. Now’s not the time or the place. Need I remind you we just took 5 casualties? I don’t think even the bacta tanks will help Myles or Montross. Tando, you take your squad, take these bodies, both ours and theirs, back to the door and protect our egress. We’ll take the control center.”

Far away, daylight dawns on a broken landscape. Gaping wounds caused by fire and counter fire of massive engines of war had churned the once fertile land into a morass of black death where occasional splashes of bright red marked the passing of a once thinking being. Lines of light traced pathways between a rapidly advancing front of brilliant blue armored figures and an rapidly retreating line of white ones. Occasional explosions and cries of pain serenade the survivors of the Ultramarine advance. Without warning, 15 streaks of silver speed over the battlefield. Over the storm trooper squad frequencies the cry goes out “INCOMMING!”

A cacophonous burst of whistles fill the air. The cluster bomb, consisting of explosives that detonate an initial blast in the direction of the battlefield, spread a cloud of magnetized grenades and shrapnel over the vast front. Each of the 30 bombs, yielding a blast with a hard kill zone of more than 100 meters, sows destruction across the vast field of the battle, hitting friend and foe alike. Where they detonate, nothing lives. The incredibly lethal charges, devastating against even small starships, vaporize people, tanks and titans alike. The magnetization ensuring the more metal making up the target, the more it gets hit.

A cheer resounds from the Storm Trooper lines as they view the destruction. A cheer that is quickly replaced by quiet despair as the decimated, but furious Ultramarines charge with renewed furry over the broken bodies of their tanks and brothers alike. As the fighting retreat continues, a deep rumble gains in speed and power. The earth shakes and throws everyone back to the ground once again. A gout of flame roars into the air. Pieces of black masonry land all around them, some even recognizable. A storm trooper dies under 100 tons of black wall, an Ultramarine crushed by what looks like a twisted coal engine. Yet even this doesn’t deter the attacks of the marines. The instant the ground stops shaking they are back on their feet, some arguably before. They fire, charge, fire and yell as though nothing has happened, no casualties taken. The storm troopers are once again forced to retreat in the face of this blue clad furry. Boarding their transports, the quickly launch back to orbit. Fully 75% of their force left behind to the slaughter that has, only now, truly begun.

The 10 surviving Mandalorian commandos look on in silence as the Star Destroyers giant turbo-lasers prepare to fire down at the planet. In their wake they leave nothing but ionized air and molten earth. The month long process that will result in the destruction of the planet has begun.

On the bridge of the Emperor’s Revenge, Grand Admiral Daramius sighs in disgust. One of these days, we’ll find a planet, with a significant marine presence, that will surrender. 
“Ok lieutenant, begin bombardment.” The Grand Admiral saunter’s off the control deck. Through corridor to his lavish suite, and to bed. His last thought before sleep claims him, “God I hate Space Marines.”


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Okay, i just wasn't sure whether they all had that, or if there were varying degrees.


----------



## Red Orc

Daneel2.0 said:


> Holy Crap! ! ! I was online trying to find statistics for other Jedi and found out that the "religion" Jedi is the 4th largest in England ! ! !
> 
> Unreal.


Yeah. Except it's the 4th largest in the UK, not just England, according to the Census.

The Government, however, refused to officially recognise it after something like a quarter-million people (including me) put it down. Supposedly, they have to officially recognise it (and allow us religious holidays) if more than 10,000 people ascribe to it (or some such number).

There's only a few thousand "real" Jedis. The rest of us put it down for a laugh or because they thought it was a stupid question and none of the government's damn business.

:not going anywhere near all that medichlorian crap cyclops:


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## Dessel_Ordo

hate to nitpick, but at episode 6, he was in specially made Katarn (Mandalorian Shok Trooper) armor, but it wasnt Beskar...
dont get me wrong, that shit is good, clone commandos and ARC troopers had versions of that (minus the weapon systems and jet-packs), one guy jumped on a decent sized thermal detonater (like a high-explosive grenade in size and umph) and he walked away with naught but a dent in the suit. (same poor SOB later survived a larger bomb blast, body totally intact, but he got beat up like a plastic mini in a steel box shaken up real good for 10 or 15 seconds, and ended up in a coma... Jedi pulled him out of it, he did rehab, and got back to fighting strength)

The thing is, Beskar'Gam (worn by most Mandalorians) is just a hash better (say, a 2+ as opposed to the 3+ Boba's armour is, and an invuln save of 6, seeing as Beskar can stop a lightsaber, and it can allow a fighter to take a glancing hit from one of the big guns on an Imperial II Star Destroyer (second only to Super STar Destroyers)

like I said... hate to nitpick, if you want I can provide the backup from wookypedia

that said, I do beleive that Mandos (slang for mandalorians) and Space marines can fill similair roles. During the Vong War, both before and after the battle of Mandalore (the planet) Boba tooled around with his 500 Elite, the 500 most skilled, most bad-assed Mandalorians he could find ( and being the Mandalorians leader, he could find a lot of, if not all of them), and bailed out beleagured garrisonds, did SM style lightning assaults on Vong held planets, seek and destroy of important vong ships and structures (without the Bes'Ulik fighters, the ones made out of straight Beskar, mind you). And of course space marines are known to do deep insertion and spec ops work Daneel mentiioned being Mandalorians thing. Granted, neither is really set for the others role, but both forces have pretty much the same amount of flexibility.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

just wanted to add my pennies worth but if the galactic empire and 30k imperium of man came head to head the imperium would whoop ass. the emperor of man would totally fuck the emperor up and any force powers would be dealt with too easily and then just one phsycic lance would end it all. any one of the primarchs or custodes would destroy vader and the emperors guards then the legions would stampede over all the clone troopers with ease. the legions battered the largest ork horde ever and would do the same to clone troopers easy. the titan legions would decimate those crappy at-at and at-st walkers, hell one titan would do those tin cans. they could bring the mandolorian armour and chapter after chapter of terminators would shread them. 
battle barges would piss on any star destroy with its gay little lasers, they couldnt even destroy the millenium falcon. 
the imperium would just virus bomb corusant and the galactic senate would be no more and the empire would be in disarray. the empire wouldnt even get to the outer rim of the solar system, never mind get through all of terras defences on the moon. and if the imperium got hold of a blackstone fortress then the deathstar would have no chance with its one shot laser.

all hail the imperium of man!


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm

Everyone on the the Mandalorian Battlecruiser Advent was quite, as if by saying anything they would give away their position to the Dark Angels. Fett had made a rendezvous with his fleet and made haste to Caliban. so far the spec. ops team of eight clones and four assassin droids had not been detected, and the information they had been sending back to the fleet at the edge of the system was tenfold. the team was hiding within The Rock itself, the inside of the base filled with much less light and monitering equipment then the pillboxes and such on its outer walls. so far they had found out that The Lion had awoken three days ago and immediately made way to Luther's chambers and upon entering had not come out since. apparently he had been informed somehow of what was happening and had given the order to prepare his chapter for war. As Fett and the rest of his new command squad watched the hologram battle droids, clones, and mandalorians were being readied for the upcoming battle. the camera that was feeding them this image was connected to a mando sniper's HUD and so Fett could see what he and his team saw. suddenly three figures walked into the courtyard that the team was watching. "The man in the middle, who is that. Vorbe can you get a closer look?" "Yes sir." the image on the screen magnified greatly to show the upper half of the marines' bodies. "Azrael and the leaders of the Raven Wing and Deathwing?" "Aye" came Vorbe's response "Shall we take their heads sir?" Fett thougt about the reprecussions of what could happen if they did. it would most certainly cripple the Dark Angels but so far the Empire had failed in most ground assualts anyways so losing these three men wouldnt be THAT much of problem for the Dark Angels, would it? Killing them would also give away the team's position and they would not be able to be picked up for extraction later, also if tey stayed quite they could gather more information. Fett made his decision "No Vorbe stay quite, this is a recon objective not assassination." "Yes sir." Azrael and the leader of the Raven Wing walked away deep in conversation while the terminator just stood there looking at the stars. Vorbe's voice came across again "Sir?" Fett's heart was racing now "Wait till you know for sure that the other two have gone and them do it. Get the droids to get rid of his body when your done." "Yes sir." Vorbe's targeting display came up on his HUD as it locked on to the terminator captain's exposed head. a dark purple beam flew across the courtyard and disintigrated the captain's head. the huge body stood there for a moment before toppling over. immediately the droids raced to go pick the body up to be disintegrated elsewhere. one droid tossed the marine over its shoulder and ran off while the others gave it cover. as they ran the captain's helm came off his belt and fell onto the grass. Fett smiled "They will be hurting without their great leader of the Deathwing. Vorbe get to someplace safer and more discreet once you have finished setting up the chameleon cameras." "Yes sir, we had made ourselves a nice little hole in the wall about one hundred feet up in one of the stone walls of the hallways, dug ourselves a little cave in the rock we did." Vorbe said with a chuckle. Fett shook his head, Vorbe was always a little out there but he was damn good. "Did you already set up the audio recorder o Luther's chambers?" "Yes sir but it will not send the feed to you or us until the conversation is done, im sure you understand the ramifications?" "I do Fett out." He just hoped they could gather enough information here to help the rest of the fleets. The Dark Angels would see their planet destroyed a second time very soon....Fett smiled at the thought.


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## Daneel2.0

Unknown Primarch said:


> just wanted to add my pennies worth but if the galactic empire and 30k imperium of man came head to head the imperium would whoop ass. the emperor of man would totally fuck the emperor up and any force powers would be dealt with too easily and then just one phsycic lance would end it all. any one of the primarchs or custodes would destroy vader and the emperors guards then the legions would stampede over all the clone troopers with ease. the legions battered the largest ork horde ever and would do the same to clone troopers easy. the titan legions would decimate those crappy at-at and at-st walkers, hell one titan would do those tin cans. they could bring the mandolorian armour and chapter after chapter of terminators would shread them.
> battle barges would piss on any star destroy with its gay little lasers, they couldnt even destroy the millenium falcon.
> the imperium would just virus bomb corusant and the galactic senate would be no more and the empire would be in disarray. the empire wouldnt even get to the outer rim of the solar system, never mind get through all of terras defences on the moon. and if the imperium got hold of a blackstone fortress then the deathstar would have no chance with its one shot laser.
> 
> all hail the imperium of man!


Thanks for the opinion, but I have hard numbers to say you're wrong. And although I appreciate the perspective and the match ups your propose, battle barges vs. star destroyers is an especially interesting one, you'll have to give me a better reason that "I think" in order to have an effect on my stance at this stage of the debate.

Let me, however, propose some problems with your reasoning. First, Emperor Palpatine and the Corpse Emperor would never meet face to face. It's not Palpatine's style to engage in direct conflicts. And your assertion that psychic powers trump force powers is absurd. The systems don't correspond in any form which makes them exceedingly difficult to compare. Add to that the fact that 1 out of every 6 times you use the psychic power you get stomped by some Warp entity and the balance clearly shifts to the force. Next, I've already dealt with Titans and the Storm Trooper vs. Space Marine and Terminators in previous posts. I suggest that you read them before you post information that everyone already knows, and for the most part, agrees with. The virus bomb issue has likewise been dealt with, but not by me. A virus bomb has to get to the planet before it can be effective, and with planetary shields, it ain't gonna happen. And finally, there is only 1 blackstone fortress remaining and Abbadon has it. The chances of him loaning it to the Imperium are slim to none.

To Dessel: Sorry about the mix-up. The stats I used came from Episode V not VI. I have since looked and can't find numbers concerning Mandalorian Iron constructed armor. I'll continue looking to see if I can't locate it.

As to their respective rolls, I know that Space Marines have been traditionally used in that roll, but we are looking at a numbers issue here. From my understanding there are approximately 1 million Space Marines under arms at any one given time (and possibly many more that 1 mil. if some of the chapters have forces that exceed the average.) The highest number I've seen for Mandalorians is 500K. Now considering their disdain for using heavier armed vehicles in favor for personal hand to hand combat (for which they are renowned) I do think that, while the Space marines would be used to directly attack storm troopers and shore up IG lines while Terminators would be used for strike missions requiring massive fire or Jump Marines for speed.

Mandalorians, on the other hand, with their predilection for hand to hand, their extreme modifications to their equipment (making them non-interchangeable with front line troops) and their status as elites, would be the perfect commando force for the Empire.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Aren't marines roles to deliver crushing strikes to a planet then more on to the next planet?


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## Dessel_Ordo

good point Daneel...
as far as Star Wars is concerned, I'm a Mando at heart... I'm pretty sure I had been re-reading the stuff on the Mandalorian War (and how the kicked the ever-living crap out of the old republics candied ASS!!!!!!!!), when there were millions of Mando's, they fought like space marines (hell, there was even the Bassilisk War Droid, a drop pod fused with a dreadnaught, the thing was a beast!!!)

:blush: I will refrain from reading the history of Mandalorians before posting in this thread in the future...
colors my vision, retinas turn into the Mythosaur skull, ect ect ect


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## Daneel2.0

Ok, never mind. The Battle Barge vs. Star Destroyer isn't an interesting fight. The Battle Barge is, according to the 40K Wiki, "the largest Space Marine warship and is configured for close support of planetary landings, carrying numerous bombardment turrets and torpedo tubes."

It can hold and launch 3 Chapters of Space Marines simultaneously. Now, a chapter is comprised of 10 squads, each composed of 10 men (with certain exceptions of course). Even with the exceptions this puts 3 Chapters at 300 men. 

It has "multiple plasma reactor torpedoes, and bombardment weapons".

In contrast, the most common class of star destroyer had a 36,810 man crew, 275 gunners for their manned weapon systems, and 9,700 Storm Troopers. The ship featured 50 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries, 50 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons, 20 Ion Cannons, 10 Tractor Beam Projectors, carried 72 TIE fighters, 5 Alpha Class XG-1 Star Wings, 15 Delta Class DX9 Transports, 8x Lambda Class shuttles, 1 Gamma Class Assault Shuttle and 1 TIE Shuttle Craft (forgot the partridge in a pear tree . . . ON A STICK :biggrin

Now, Space marines are very tough. Much tougher than Storm Troopers. But a Single Battle Cruiser's Space marines vs. a Single Star Destroyers Storm Troopers produces better than a 

*30:1 COMBAT RATIO*

Now, I know they are tough, but not even space marines can take that kind of numeric disadvantage and for very long. If you don't believe me, offer to fight your local IG Infantry player. Give him 3700 points and take 300 - see how you do.

Next consider that a full CHAPTER has 3 Battle Barges. If they all attacked the same planet, they would come under the fire of a single System Force who would be tasked to hold them off until the Sector Force could respond. That System force is also 3 Star Destroyers with the addition of 90 other attack craft (cruisers, frigates, etc). So the numeric advantage remains the same.


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## Daneel2.0

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Aren't marines roles to deliver crushing strikes to a planet then more on to the next planet?


You know, to be candid, I don't know. The fluff is SO unclear on the point that I haven't been able to get a good grasp on when they are traditionally employed. Even where you would expect it to be constant, like inside a single chapter, it varies from conflict to conflict.

It's almost like it's the whim of the Chapter Master. "Oh, that looks fun, lets go there". I'd imagine that *somebody, somewhere* knows what the full story is, but I'm not that someone. 

:ireful2:


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Ultramarines have around 12... they could lend some out. Not to mention the strike cruisers.


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## Red Orc

The way the role of the SMs is "traditionally" described is to compare them the the IG: "The Guard _holds_ planets; Space Marines _take_ planets" is one way I've seen it formulated.

So _in theory_ at least the role of SMs is as Wolf Lord Skoll says; but Daneel is right that there's a lot of variation.

Essentially SMs are specialists, super-warriors who are typically used in small numbers at decisive points on the battlefield. But this depends on the situation - in the 3rd War for Armageddon, the sheer number of marines seems to have meant they were used as meatgrinder troops more often; the Black Templars and the Ultramarines have very different ideas as to the remit of SMs in terms of "what happens after the battle"; the White Scars and the Iron Hands have very different organisation and tactics (at least until the new codex...) etc.

So though the idea that marines conquer a planet and move on (best example probably being the Black Templars) there are other conceptions of how the Marines are best used. But in general I'd say that was the best way to look at it.

:fluffy cyclops:


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Thats actualy what i was thinking at the time Red Orc, but the brain-to-writing didnt work very well >_<. Also, it only takes 2 or 3 chapters to take a planet doesn't it? Unless of course your in the middle of a Black Crusade or Waaargh!.


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## Red Orc

I'd say it would probably be less... if you think about it, the 2nd war for Armageddon only took 3 Chapters, and that was a massive Waaagh!

I'd think generally, one or two companies and some support (plus, probably, some IG units) would be considered sufficient. Maybe even less if you were cocky, like the Blood Ravens. My understanding is that SMs don't actually like fighting alongside SMs from other chapters, unless they have some kind of traditional link like the BTs and Crimson Fists.

:fluffy cyclops:


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## Da Red Paintjob Grot

Could be endlessly cool, but i have been outnerded! This is impossible!


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## Unknown Primarch

Daneel2.0 said:


> Thanks for the opinion, but I have hard numbers to say you're wrong. And although I appreciate the perspective and the match ups your propose, battle barges vs. star destroyers is an especially interesting one, you'll have to give me a better reason that "I think" in order to have an effect on my stance at this stage of the debate.
> 
> Let me, however, propose some problems with your reasoning. First, Emperor Palpatine and the Corpse Emperor would never meet face to face. It's not Palpatine's style to engage in direct conflicts. And your assertion that psychic powers trump force powers is absurd. The systems don't correspond in any form which makes them exceedingly difficult to compare. Add to that the fact that 1 out of every 6 times you use the psychic power you get stomped by some Warp entity and the balance clearly shifts to the force. Next, I've already dealt with Titans and the Storm Trooper vs. Space Marine and Terminators in previous posts. I suggest that you read them before you post information that everyone already knows, and for the most part, agrees with. The virus bomb issue has likewise been dealt with, but not by me. A virus bomb has to get to the planet before it can be effective, and with planetary shields, it ain't gonna happen. And finally, there is only 1 blackstone fortress remaining and Abbadon has it. The chances of him loaning it to the Imperium are slim to none..


ok first you cant say that the 2 emperor would never meet but i see how it they might never meet. but if they did He would come out on top. not only has the EoM got the advantage of a space marines physiology and power armour but he has a greater understanding and control of his powers. 
While palpatine did a good job of destroying the jedi he wasnt even the most powerful sith lord and didnt know everything about the forces powers on offer unlike the emperor who was the most powerful warp being known. i never said the warp was more powerful than the force but im saying that the EoM was the better weilder of his said power. 
the titan thing may have been dealt with but i was throwing in all my opinions in one post so thats irrelivant if its been covered or not. 
virus bombing could happen, if any planet had sheilds they can always be overloaded then said bombing could commence.
then on to the blackstone fortresses. i said at the top of my original post that it was 30k imperium that i was talking about and at this point chaos didnt have them so it was possible for the imperium to get hold of one or more and use them to their advantage. hell if they got all of them then the empire would be in serious trouble. sod virus bombing corusant, get BSF all linked up and take it out without any trouble. yeah the deathstar can do this sort of thing put it cant destroy a star like BSF can.

are you sure your a 40k fan, your on WH site and backing up starwars. whats that about?!


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## vorbis

u can be a fan of both and still be logical about something, if i was more a fan of star trek than 40k would i think they would win?....... actually


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## Unknown Primarch

the federation would keep battered, they only have starships and normal humans as warriors. maybe the borg would stand up and do some damage, maybe the jem,hada but any other race hasnt got a chance.


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## Talos

Well I have only seen the star wars film and going by them it would be no contest the Space marines would just wipe everything.
Now I know the films arnt like the background but I think it would be a tough battle. The empire would do better in space but then again in the 3rd film all you need to do to kill a super star destroy is fly a small ship into its cockpit. Also would the shields work against the Imperium weapons as it looks like in the films they only block lasers and while the imperium does have lance weapons most are still standard shells and torpodes.
Also you only need to get 1 squad on sm on a ship and its gone. I mean in the films when the storm troopers get hit there armour does not even melt it just goes black, those lasers would do nothing against SM armour. Also they cant hit anything, if a random kid(luke) with no combat training and kill loads and than a SM has no problem.

To kill the jedi you just need grey knights also alpha level pskyas are move powerful then any jedi.

Again this is just going of the films, as I have never read any background as starwars does not really interest me. 
I mean there is a story of a warband of CSM the purge which kill 8 billion people and now that warband cant be that many as they are CSM so maybe a few 100. Could 100 storm troopers attack a planet and kill everybody on it ?


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## Daneel2.0

Red Orc said:


> Essentially SMs are specialists, super-warriors who are typically used in small numbers at decisive points on the battlefield. But this depends on the situation


I think that's the difference there. I don't see Mandalorians as battlefield troops, but behind the lines kind of troops. If they are on the battlefield, I think they screwed up. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> ok first you cant say that the 2 emperor would never meet but i see how it they might never meet. but if they did He would come out on top. not only has the EoM got the advantage of a space marines physiology and power armour but he has a greater understanding and control of his powers.
> While palpatine did a good job of destroying the jedi he wasnt even the most powerful sith lord and didnt know everything about the forces powers on offer unlike the emperor who was the most powerful warp being known. i never said the warp was more powerful than the force but im saying that the EoM was the better weilder of his said power.


I don't have much of a grasp of 30K Warhammer, but since we aren't talking about that, it isn't such a disadvantage. You may be perfectly correct concerning 30K. I don't know.

In 40K, as I understand things, the Emperor is pretty confined to the Golden Throne. I don't think he would have a lot of opportunity to use psychic powers from there. 

Finally, you don't understand the nature of Palpatine's menace. He isn't a brute villain, but a schemer villain. He didn't kill off the jedi, he sent Vader to kill off the jedi. He didn't bring down the Old Republic, he manipulated events to have the Old Republic bring itself down. Different style villain. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> the titan thing may have been dealt with but i was throwing in all my opinions in one post so thats irrelivant if its been covered or not.


Titans, we agreed, didn't have a very good analog in SW. The only thing that comes close are the SW super weapons, and they are as much beyond titans as titans are beyond SW tanks. There really isn't any good comparison.

In an earlier post, I said that I thought 28 AT-ATs could take a Warhound titan, but I also said that was w/o consideration for their shields. It could easily be double that.



Unknown Primarch said:


> virus bombing could happen, if any planet had sheilds they can always be overloaded then said bombing could commence.


To execute a Planetary Bombardment you need Space Ships. Against SW, the 40K Imperium wouldn't have any. At least not for very long.



Unknown Primarch said:


> then on to the blackstone fortresses. i said at the top of my original post that it was 30k imperium that i was talking about and at this point chaos didnt have them so it was possible for the imperium to get hold of one or more and use them to their advantage. hell if they got all of them then the empire would be in serious trouble.


Still wouldn't work. You need the a couple of Slaan artifacts to get the blackstone fortresses to power up and be functional. The Imperium didn't know this, and didn't know about the location of the artifacts, and didn't know how to use them to power up the fortresses. The only reason Abbadon figured it out is Deceiver TOLD him how to do it and where they were.



Unknown Primarch said:


> sod virus bombing corusant, get BSF all linked up and take it out without any trouble. yeah the deathstar can do this sort of thing put it cant destroy a star like BSF can.


No, but a resonance torpedo launcher can. And any individual Star Destroyer can take a planet, not just the Death Star. What made the Death Star so vicious was that it CRACKED the planet, not just destroying the surface and the atmosphere, but obliterated it. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> are you sure your a 40k fan, your on WH site and backing up starwars. whats that about?!


Actually I like both systems, but they are different. Both good in some ways, stupid in others.



Talos said:


> The empire would do better in space but then again in the 3rd film all you need to do to kill a super star destroy is fly a small ship into its cockpit. Also would the shields work against the Imperium weapons as it looks like in the films they only block lasers and while the imperium does have lance weapons most are still standard shells and torpodes.


That was a fluke. It happens in real life too, but there were other things that had happened that didn't make the film. All of the capital ships in the Rebel fleet were focusing fire on that ship. They had lost all their shields, had major structural damage and lost the secondary bridge to a Turbolaser cannon strike. When they lost the main bridge to the starfighter impact, they lost control of the engines and gravity pulled them into the Death Star (remember, by just mass the star destroyer 1 g of gravity.)



Talos said:


> Also you only need to get 1 squad on sm on a ship and its gone. I mean in the films when the storm troopers get hit there armour does not even melt it just goes black, those lasers would do nothing against SM armour.


Maybe. Depends on the ship they board. Remember a Star Destroyer carries almost 10,000 troops (depending on configuration. An entire chapter of space marines loses against 300:1 odds. Hell a super star destroyer carries 1 million Storm Troopers.



Talos said:


> Also they cant hit anything, if a random kid(luke) with no combat training and kill loads and than a SM has no problem.


Please, that's just Hollywood. If they made a 40K movie you'd see the same thing. 



Talos said:


> To kill the jedi you just need grey knights also alpha level pskyas are move powerful then any jedi.


Don't know. Probably depends on the jedi and the grey knight. As to alpha level psykers, that is again problematic since the systems are so different.

Again, the star wars stuff vs. the 40K stuff both have strengths and weaknesses. How they use their strengths will almost certainly decide any conflict. This is why I said that Mandalorians probably wouldn't be used in heads on engagements. The SW universe is STRONG in droid technology. That makes droid armies much more likely, and considerably cheaper. The 40K universe is STRONG in front line troops, main battle tanks, armored vehicles and the like. This makes utilizing them in mass engagements a tactic they will favor. If they could get the SW Empire stuck in a mess like Armageddon, they would grind resources away fast. Enough battles like that and it becomes pretty certain even against a massively larger population and a massively larger infrastructure.


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## me987654

The imperium would easily destroy the empire for one simple reason... psykers.. the empire has 2 psykers..... the imperium has 10s of millions (at a minimum).... star destroyers are useless when the crew has their brains boiled.

The emperor and vader might be able to beat a librarian one on one.. but their are thousands of librarians and thousands of powerful psyker inquisitors.... 

This isn't even a contest.... the empire simply has no defense against psykers outside of vader and the emperor


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## Dessel_Ordo

actually, Palpatine had loads of force sensitives in his employ... there were his "Hands" there were at least 10, Skywalker un-sithified one, married her, trained her a Jedi... and she became a Jedi _Master_, a powerful one too. In fact, these people were so secretive, the New Republic was still dealing with them 10 years after the GA surrendered.

there were also at lest 2 force sensitive grand admirals.

both Vader and Palpatine had several other aprentices that they simply kept secret from each other.

There was also the Prophets of the Dark Side, a unification of all the sith cults that were currently alive during palpatines reign... most of the force users, not enough to break the Rule of Two, mind you, they were merely tossed morsels (they were more like fallen jedi knights, then Sith Lords or Sith Apprentices), they were actually just one of the dark side users making up the Secret Order of the Emperor, which consited of several groups like the Prophets.

so, me987654, your wrong, the Galactic Empire had plenty of "psykers" as you would classify them...


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## me987654

Dessel_Ordo said:


> actually, Palpatine had loads of force sensitives in his employ... there were his "Hands" there were at least 10, Skywalker un-sithified one, married her, trained her a Jedi... and she became a Jedi _Master_, a powerful one too. In fact, these people were so secretive, the New Republic was still dealing with them 10 years after the GA surrendered.
> 
> there were also at lest 2 force sensitive grand admirals.
> 
> both Vader and Palpatine had several other aprentices that they simply kept secret from each other.
> 
> There was also the Prophets of the Dark Side, a unification of all the sith cults that were currently alive during palpatines reign... most of the force users, not enough to break the Rule of Two, mind you, they were merely tossed morsels (they were more like fallen jedi knights, then Sith Lords or Sith Apprentices), they were actually just one of the dark side users making up the Secret Order of the Emperor, which consited of several groups like the Prophets.
> 
> so, me987654, your wrong, the Galactic Empire had plenty of "psykers" as you would classify them...




Isn't that stuff all non-canon?... It's hard to pay attention to all the 100s of star wars books that have been written (kind of like if you included everything from every black library book)

In any case this is super silly since I could say "empire has nothing that can penetrate void shields" and you could say "empire can easily penetrate void shields"... and there's really no way of being "right"


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## Cato Sicarius

Good point. There is no right or wrong in this matter. It's just a silly a possibly hijacked thread. I think it should have been in the Off-Topic section as it wasn't really 40k fluff.


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## Haraldrr

No offence but i think a scout could destroy the emporer and his body gaurd (star wars `1) alone lol


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## Dessel_Ordo

me987654 said:


> Isn't that stuff all non-canon?... It's hard to pay attention to all the 100s of star wars books that have been written (kind of like if you included everything from every black library book)
> 
> In any case this is super silly since I could say "empire has nothing that can penetrate void shields" and you could say "empire can easily penetrate void shields"... and there's really no way of being "right"


actually, no, Del Rey, Dark Horse, (and I beleive one other publishing company) have an exclusive deal with Lucasarts... and he approves all story arcs, new major characters, and character progression of movie characters... I only referenced official cannon approved SW events/groups. I used Wokkypedia as a general source, otherwise I would have to read through entire novels to make an intelligent post. If you dont want to beleive me, check wookypedia yourself, those guys have banned/locked acounts and pages due to something being wrong, or "vandalism" of a page.

as for sheild penetration... drop Daneel2.0 a pm about sheilds, and he will beat you senseless with a math-hammer :wacko:... :biggrin:


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## DaemonsR'us

Hey Daneel was wondering if you have anything on the imperial navy vs sw imperial fleet, it looked kinda obvious theres no way a SM chapter could contend with sw ships but maybe its possible that the imperial navy could pose, at least more of a threat against the sw fleets as they are much larger size and number wise, just a thought to throw that into the mix, its not just the SM's in space, SM's role in space in recent fluff seems to be diminishing greatly and more seems to be being handed over to the imperial navy


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## Zorenthewise

In response to earlier posts regarding 40k Imperium vs. SW Empire in space battles, I think the 40k Imperium would win. As a long time player of Battlefleet Gothic, I can say that the Imperium has better weponry. First off is range. In Star Wars they have to physically see the enemy to shoot it, but in 40k they shoot torpedoes the size of skyscrapers _lightyears_ away with incredible accuracy! In terms of pure firepower, you have been disregarding the incredible Nova Cannon. This comes standard on half of the Imperium's battleships, and is, in essence, a bomb of ridiculous power.

Let's match an Emperor Class Battleship against a Super Star Destroyer. The Emperor class battleship has about an equal amount of batteries and cannon, but also has the Nova Cannon. While the Death Star could crack a planet, the Nova Cannon blast is so huge it covers hundreds of miles and has enough destructive power to annihilate a planet as long as the bomb is in its atmosphere. One shot of this cannon would wipe out the close-formationed SW Empire ships, and the 40k Imperium would not just have one. The Super Star Destroyer would be bombarded as it tried to come close, and if it ever got into range, it would have faced several full broadsides before it reached there. The only aspect of space combat that the SW Empire has a chance at is fighter combat, where the millions of TIE fighters would be quite effective against the fewer Imperials. Then again, a few dozen X-Wings and Y-wings took out the Empire's greatest space station and its entire fighter cohort. I'm sure the Imperial aces could manage 

Also in terms of boarding, the Imperial Guard is much larger than the SW Empire. 40k spans galaxies and nebula, while SW is in one galaxy. If it came down to a boarding action, I would love to see Stormtroopers fighting Terminators. Someone previously mentioned a space marine would be at lest against 300:1 odds. In tabletop game terms, they would likely lose, but in fluff terms, forget about it. A single tactical squad could take out thousands of stormtroopers without breaking a sweat!


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## NoiseMarine

Zorenthewise said:


> In response to earlier posts regarding 40k Imperium vs. SW Empire in space battles, I think the 40k Imperium would win. As a long time player of Battlefleet Gothic, I can say that the Imperium has better weponry. First off is range. In Star Wars they have to physically see the enemy to shoot it, but in 40k they shoot torpedoes the size of skyscrapers _lightyears_ away with incredible accuracy! In terms of pure firepower, you have been disregarding the incredible Nova Cannon. This comes standard on half of the Imperium's battleships, and is, in essence, a bomb of ridiculous power.
> 
> Let's match an Emperor Class Battleship against a Super Star Destroyer. The Emperor class battleship has about an equal amount of batteries and cannon, but also has the Nova Cannon. While the Death Star could crack a planet, the Nova Cannon blast is so huge it covers hundreds of miles and has enough destructive power to annihilate a planet as long as the bomb is in its atmosphere. One shot of this cannon would wipe out the close-formationed SW Empire ships, and the 40k Imperium would not just have one. The Super Star Destroyer would be bombarded as it tried to come close, and if it ever got into range, it would have faced several full broadsides before it reached there. The only aspect of space combat that the SW Empire has a chance at is fighter combat, where the millions of TIE fighters would be quite effective against the fewer Imperials. Then again, a few dozen X-Wings and Y-wings took out the Empire's greatest space station and its entire fighter cohort. I'm sure the Imperial aces could manage
> 
> Also in terms of boarding, the Imperial Guard is much larger than the SW Empire. 40k spans galaxies and nebula, while SW is in one galaxy. If it came down to a boarding action, I would love to see Stormtroopers fighting Terminators. Someone previously mentioned a space marine would be at lest against 300:1 odds. In tabletop game terms, they would likely lose, but in fluff terms, forget about it. A single tactical squad could take out thousands of stormtroopers without breaking a sweat!


amen brotha every1 who says SW would triumph is just refusing to see the inevitable truth of the situation


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## Red Orc

Zorenthewise said:


> ... 40k spans galaxies and nebula, while SW is in one galaxy...


Where did you get that information from?

40k is set rather firmly in one Galaxy. The only thing from outside it are the tyrannids.

:sceptical cyclops:


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## Zorenthewise

Ok. Even with that, 40k people are battle hardened from constant war, whereas SW people are ruled by a single power with practically unquestioned leadership. This means the 40k armies are veterans and the SW armies are merely trained.


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## Red Orc

Maybe it means that the Imperium's armies are overstreatched, badly-led, under-supplied, badly-resourced, and beaten into the ground...

...whereas the Empire is confident and in perfect condition.

:two sides to every cyclops:


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## Unknown Primarch

the galactic empire got served by a farmer boy and a rag tag bunch of rebels. every force in the 40k universe has been trying to destroy the imperium for the past 10k years or more and still hasnt been able so no way would the empire beat the imperium, simple as!


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## Red Orc

Yup. Rock can beat scissors and scissors beat paper, so paper is shit. Rock every time! Woot! Paper is so gonna get creamed by rock!

verloading the sarcasm circuit again cyclops:


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## Col. Schafer

Any star wars faction would die horribly. Well, the clones would hold their own until the big stuff came in (titans/orbital bombardment 1,000,000,000+ imperial guardsmen) but they would still lose. On the other hand... Federation anyone? Superior technology, 'bout 1/10th the size. Actually considering mindset, were looking at the tau... Then you think of the Klingons... ahhhh... Actually I could see Q making a wormhole between the 2 galaxies just to screw with people.
OH! OH! Stargate!


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## Wraithian

Star Trek nerds make Star Wars nerds look "cool..." :biggrin: I jest. I promise. Mostly. 

Okay, all humor aside, just a thought, but maybe starting a thread on Star Trek vs. 40K might be an option, seeing as Star Trek has been brought up a couple times. This thread is huge enough without dropping another, "Star-Something," into the mix.


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## Col. Schafer

My apologies I didnt realise that star trek was already in here, I didnt read al 25 pages. I agree this thread is HUGE 

Oh, and star treck is the coolest thing ever!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

you guys need to read the posts that Daneel has put up, he actually did the MATH behind this thing. applause to him cuz i dont know about you guys but even though math is very accurate in determining the winner and such i do hate it much so congrats to him once again. in all truth i am a traitor so this war really would just present many opportunities for my men and i. it would weaken the imperium and divert their forces so my grand company and i and the other traitor legions could just walk through and open door to almost any planet they want. and the new SW faction provides for new stuff to steal such as technology and humans for new chaos marines and menials and to turn to chaos so i really dont care who wins just as long as the war is very long so i can strike at the imperium while stealing from the Empire and manipulating them. GLORY TO CHAOS!!!


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## Daneel2.0

DaemonsR'us said:


> Hey Daneel was wondering if you have anything on the imperial navy vs sw imperial fleet, it looked kinda obvious theres no way a SM chapter could contend with sw ships but maybe its possible that the imperial navy could pose, at least more of a threat against the sw fleets as they are much larger size and number wise, just a thought to throw that into the mix, its not just the SM's in space, SM's role in space in recent fluff seems to be diminishing greatly and more seems to be being handed over to the imperial navy


I do, and I believe I posted it. Look at post 93 on page 10. All of that information was for the Imperial Navy which is tasked with space operations. I didn't get to SM battle barges until just recently, at the request of one of the other posters. The lists in the previous post give sizes and composition of SW Sector Forces vs. Imperium Sector Forces. Keep in mind these aren't Battle Fleets but rather Sector Defense forces. Even so, their numbers are telling.

I suspect, no proof mind, but suspect that the differences in fleet size between the Battle Fleets would be even more telling. Remember, the Imperium is besieged on all sides and so must protect against threats from everywhere. The SW universe isn’t that readied, even the Empire. Sure there were rebels, but they were considered a minor nuisance (right up until it was too late). Hell, the Emporer played with the massed Rebel Fleet in a bid to turn Luke to the dark side. They were beaten easily right up until the Emperor died and his battle meld caused so much disorientation and coordination problems among his troops. That didn’t happen until Vader killed the Emperor. The movie time line is messed up (FYI).

For other statistics, It is generally agreed that Battleships are between 6 and 8 Km in length. Compared to SW, this is up to 10x larger than the smallest class of Star Destroyers to 2x smaller than one of the bigger classes of Star Destroyers. Then you have Super Star Destroyers which are 3x the size at their smallest. The real difference comes in their masses, crew sizes and weapon systems. The problem with these sizes is that, especially the 40K fluff, is SO inconsistent. In one book there is apparently a 30 Km sized escort vessel for the Imperium’s use. Now either this was a type error (which I favor) or the author just screwed up.

Some of the telling differences come in their design. Imperium ships have an armored prow for ramming. SW ships don’t. The Imperium Battleships set up for delivering fighter ships to battle has 8 different squads. The standard class of Star Destroyers have 36 squads of fighters and 5 squads of bombers, larger classes have more ships.

For weaponry, the Apocalypse Class Battleship has 2 batteries of Lance weapons, 1 Nova Cannon and some Dorsal weapon batteries.

A Eclipse-class Star Destroyer has 550 Heavy Laser cannons, 500 Turbolaser Batteries, 75 Ion guns, 100 Tractor Beam projectors 10 gravity well projectors and an Axial Superlaser (single shot planet killer)

Now as near as I can tell a Lance is a Turbolaser. They’re both similar both in intent and in construction (to the limits of the description on the technology.) I have been treating them as the same weapon system for simpliciity. If you happen to have numbers to suggest differently (not just “The Lance is a TREMENDOUS, POWERFUL, TOTALLY AWESOME WEAPON MAN argument, but numbers) then PM me and I’ll take a look at them.

Until then you have 1 major weapon on both systems There are 2 Lance batteries on an 40K ship and 500 “Lance” Batteries on a SW ship. There is 1 defensive battery on 40K ship and 550 on a SW ship. Then you have the 75 Ion Cannons w/ no analog in 40K. The tractor beams w/ no analog in 40K and the gravity well projectors w/ no analog in 40K.

Next look at propulsion. 40K uses plasma reactors, SW uses a combination of Fusion and repulsor technology for propulsion at sublight speeds.

Finally, Look at torpedoes. I saved this to last because the difference is overwhelming. 40K uses plasma torpedoes. SW uses ANTI-MATTER torpedoes (proton, anti-proton reaction).



Zorenthewise said:


> In response to earlier posts regarding 40k Imperium vs. SW Empire in space battles, I think the 40k Imperium would win. As a long time player of Battlefleet Gothic, I can say that the Imperium has better weponry. First off is range. In Star Wars they have to physically see the enemy to shoot it, but in 40k they shoot torpedoes the size of skyscrapers _lightyears_ away with incredible accuracy! In terms of pure firepower, you have been disregarding the incredible Nova Cannon. This comes standard on half of the Imperium's battleships, and is, in essence, a bomb of ridiculous power.


I didn’t realize you could play BFG against the SW Empire. Do you have the stats for conversions of SW starships? If so please PM me so I can get them from you. I’d be interested in seeing how closely my stat conversions were.

As far as weaponry is concerned, SW out ranges and out hits even nova cannons. 

Lets deal with the ranges first of all. Parse the word “lightyear”. Now ask yourself how long it would take a projectile traveling at light speed to hit a target a light year away. . . . Wait for it . . . . Wait for it . . . .OH – A YEAR!

Sorry, but you don’t shoot a light year no matter what fluff you think you have supporting your position. By the time you can see your opponent from that distance he has moved (for a whole year). By the time your projectile gets there (at 0.9c) it has been over 2 years from first sight. Then you have the ballistic problem. You have to calculate the solar wind differences over that span, the galactic winds, the difference in speed from where you are and they are (relative to the galactic corer). Then you have to predict their movements for the entire time it takes for your weapon to get there. Plus so many factors, I don’t have the time or inclination to include them all here. Never gonna happen.

Now lets deal with the Nova Cannon, and the reason I disregarded it (intentionally btw).

Nova Cannon, Lexicanum Online, (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Cannon)
"The principle of such a weapon is very similar to that of a rail-gun, in that it requires no propellant or fuel to move the projectile. Instead, the ammunition is accelerated using powerful magnetic fields to speeds almost equal to the speed of light. The recoil generated by such a high energy release practically prohibits vessels from mounting nova cannons on turrets, or on smaller ships. Thus, they are nearly always fired in a fixed forward arc, where the powerful ships engines can compensate for the reverse motion of the projectile. The ammunition fired by the nova cannon is a specially prepared imploding charge, timed to detonate after it achieves a set distance from the vessel that fired it. The distance is calculated by the ship's weapons officer. Though the high speed of the projectile prevents detonation at short ranges, as it will have already obtained such a high distance in a very short space of time."

This is either a misunderstanding of the weapon system, or the stupidest weapon ever designed. First, this IS a rail gun by definition, not very similar, is. Second there is no recoil on a rail gun as recoil is generated by the explosive force of the propellant. No propellant, no recoil. If there were recoil from an explosive charge sufficient to accelerate a significant mass (say over the size of an atom) to .9c, it would obliterate a planet, let alone something as puny as a starship. And if you could do it, why - drop the explosive charge in a bomb / missile and accelerate your opponents ship to .9c. Third, you don't mount explosives on a rail round. The entire point of a rail gun is that the KE does the damage, no explosive charge is necessary. If you blow up your round, no KE; not only that, but if you use an IMPLOSION you take away from the velocity of the projectile as it collapses in. Might as well just shoot a missile. Fourth, if you blow up your round after it is shot, you lose 99.9% of your mass and effective range, since it blows up spherically causing most of your damage to be expended uselessly into space. Fifth, if you use electronics inside a massively powerful magnetic system you either short it out (probably) or set your bomb off (also possibly, even probable). Basically you’d kill yourself more often with this than you would your opponent.

This isn’t a bomb of ridiculous power, but simply ridiculous. At best it’s an inefficient use of a H-Bomb. 

No matter what it is though, it isn’t as powerful as a Axial Superlaser, since the laser is a 1 shot plant killer, the Nova Cannon isn’t. 



Zorenthewise said:


> Let's match an Emperor Class Battleship against a Super Star Destroyer.


Lets not. As I have already done 3 different times, the math is against you. If you have anything other than opinion to back your position up, again, please PM me and let me know what it is, or simply post it if it doesn’t violate copy write.



Zorenthewise said:


> Also in terms of boarding, the Imperial Guard is much larger than the SW Empire. 40k spans galaxies and nebula, while SW is in one galaxy. If it came down to a boarding action, I would love to see Stormtroopers fighting Terminators. Someone previously mentioned a space marine would be at lest against 300:1 odds. In tabletop game terms, they would likely lose, but in fluff terms, forget about it. A single tactical squad could take out thousands of stormtroopers without breaking a sweat!


No, the 40K Imperium doesn’t even span A galaxy. Singular. It spans multiple Sectors, even Hundreds of Sectors (maybe – I don’t really know) But it isn’t an entire galaxy. As has been mentioned. Also, as has been mentioned in previous posts, there are MORE Storm Troopers than IG. Orders of magnitude more in fact.



Zorenthewise said:


> Someone previously mentioned a space marine would be at lest against 300:1 odds. In tabletop game terms, they would likely lose, but in fluff terms, forget about it. A single tactical squad could take out thousands of stormtroopers without breaking a sweat!


I was the one that mentioned 300:1 odds just so you know. And lets not bring fluff into this argument please. In the first place you have no fluff to support Space marines vs. Storm Troopers as no fluff has been written in this regard. Additionally, in fluff, Luke Skywalker moved a Star Destroyer out of Planetary Orbit and PUSHED IT INTO A PLANET against the full power of its engines, with the power of his mind. Numbers are the only reliable way of crossing the two systems. If you don’t like my numbers, generate your own and then source them. Or ask me for mine and check the math yourself. Both Ordo and Wrathian looked them over and liked it. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> the galactic empire got served by a farmer boy and a rag tag bunch of rebels. every force in the 40k universe has been trying to destroy the imperium for the past 10k years or more and still hasnt been able so no way would the empire beat the imperium, simple as!


Lets move past this kind of crap please. It serves no purpose. 

However, the more I think about it the more I think that Book Space Marines are the equivalent of the Movie Heroes in Star Wars. Space Marines don’t win because they are competent, the win because the other side can’t hit worth a damn.

Maybe we SHOULD peruse this kind of thinking. . . What do you think?


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## Unknown Primarch

you keep talking math but im going on fluff as table top doesnt mean shit to me. what ever you have done for table top is great for any game players im not disputing that but in my mind its what the individual soldier or marine can do against storm trooper and jedi/sith that we have seen in film or game cut scenes. i know that a 40k special character would kill any jedi/sith though it would be a good battle not just a outright kill. looking at the laughable star destroyers weaponary in the films they dont seem to able to do much too much to a battle barge and most imperial armour would stand a great chance against alot of SW armour. obviously there is alot of exceptions depending on what you have facing each other but on a whole the imperium is more battle hardened, if it was able to have all its forces just taking on the empire instead of the countless enemies it has then the imperium is practically a unstoppable force and like ive said before if the two emperors meet then EoM would come out on top as he has the most control over his powers compared to palpatine and also he wasnt even the strongest sith lord. 
so you cant really denounce peoples views on the matter when not everyone is refering to tabletop stats, probably more people think of what would happen based on whats been seen in film.


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## Wraithian

That's the problem right there, Unkown Primarch: There has to be a place where things can be broken down, analyzed, assembled, and re-evaluated in order to make a proper comparison. We're talking who would win, and in order to do that, we need to break them down to stats that can be compared. I'm sorry, but, "the imperium wud win cuz they r the roxxorrz," doesn't really help said comparison. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. However, opinion has a lot less credibility (AKA--doesn't amount to shit) in the face of hard numbers.


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## Unknown Primarch

obviously you missed my point, which was the math is good but alot of people go by what they have seen visually so how can that amount to shit. the galactic empire didnt have any really strong enemies like the imperium so think if they lived in a galaxy without major threat then the amount of ships, soldiers, marines and any other specialist forces that they would have equired would definatly tip the balance in the imperiums favour. maybe you could come up with some hard numbers your so fond of.


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## Wraithian

No, I didn't miss your point, my reading comprehension skills are actually quite up to the task of carrying on a conversation, but thanks. :wink:

And yes, the math *is* good, as it's the only thing we can make a reasonable (and unbiased) comparison with.

The problem with basing one's judgement on (I'm assuming) just movies for one set of fluff (SW), and the entirety of the general fluff (40K) is that it becomes awfully one sided. Of course in the movies storm troopers couldn't hit a target if the barrel was touching it. It would be an awfully short movie if storm troopers could qualify as even casual shooters, let alone the level of firearms proficiency one would expect from even the most basic of training.

In applying basic military theory, the, "he who controls the sky controls the war," concept becomes exponentially important when space travel/conflict enters the equation. Sure, marines are tough, and yeah, it may very well be that a marine is the best trooper in the comparison, bar none, but I don't care how mean a marine is--he's useless if his boarding craft/battlebarge/space transportation of any flavor is vaporized before he can arrive at his destination where his skills are required.

I dunno about you, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that if a space marine battle ship of some persuasion were to attempt to ram and board a super star destroyer, but my money's on the super star destroyer. Even if for some odd reason, the SSD only managed to get off one shot (maybe the other weapon batteries were a combination of engaging other targets, destroyed, whatever), the axial superlaser is pretty much the, "I win button," of that particular engagement.

Even if I subscribed to your logic of, "what I've seen trumps numbers," I'd have to still bet on the SSD. It's armed with a planet cracking laser. An imperial vessel, no matter the size, isn't as large as a planet, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the axial superlaser can crack any imperial vessel. I don't need numbers for that. :wink:


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## Unknown Primarch

i agree that SSD are the nuts, i actually would rather be in one of them than the deathstar which sounds odd but the SSD is like the maybach of spaceships as the deathstar is more of a transit van. the thing that swings me against SW starships is that in the movies the millenium falcon took some hits from a stardestroyer and it didnt do anything and the falcon was a poxy little freight runner. if the same fire power tried to destroy a battle barge then its like shooting teminator armour with a peagun, it aint gonna do shit. 
i suppose the downside is that the imperium hasnt got anything that compares to the deathstar really and probably the only thing in 40k universe of some similarity is the blackstone fortresses. i am surprised that the emperor didnt have some supership for him and his custodes to ride round the galaxy in and if he did maybe that had some serious firepower to maybe combat a SSD or DS. maybe future HH books will reveal a supership for the emp and we can continue this at another time.


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## Wraithian

<chuckles> Yeah, I've always laughed a bit when a star destroyer couldn't drop a frieghter, too. But, again, if the SD would have opened up and blew up the Falcon, it would have made for a very short movie... :wink:


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## Unknown Primarch

theres only one way to settle it and that for GW and LucasArts to make a game like that new sole caliber game with yoda and vader in and then we can have endless battles to decide the fate of both empires!


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## Wraithian

I'd play that. :biggrin:


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## Morgal

Wraithian said:


> <chuckles> Yeah, I've always laughed a bit when a star destroyer couldn't drop a frieghter, too. But, again, if the SD would have opened up and blew up the Falcon, it would have made for a very short movie... :wink:


This may be why most don't take this thread serously.
not realy knowing the SW fluff I look at the star destroyer and see nothing on par with a battle cruiser mounting tons of broad side lances and really really big guns...the star destroyers little lazzers don't look like much. never mind torpeddo's and such.

Star destroyers may have a bigger gun than those turrets but really i don't see them being hard enough to break through the prow and shields of a battleship.

This compared to full on broad side and longer than range of sight weapons. I still don't think the 2 are comparable.

40k wins hands down it's not even funny. even a few 40k ships wins.


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## Zorenthewise

This is a response to the previous response to my last post.

Your mathematical skill is stunning and shows us a lot about your knowledge of both matehmatical prinsiples as well as the Star Wars universe. However, with your math and logic, you have not proven yourself right, but rather both of our points moot.

You showed us that the Nova Cannon doesn't make sense. It is poorly designed and could not actually exist in the real world. Yet, in the 40k universe, _it does!_ Oh and a Lance is not a turbolaser. A turbolaser has the power to blow up a fighter in one shot, but the beam from a Lance is often a continuous, steady beam that is the size of the smaller mechant vessels! Also, 40k ships fire much more than just laser batteries, and have countless guns (seriously, they never give us a number ) that fire good old fashion projectiles.

The main mistake with using math here, is that 40k is not a science fiction. Most people are going to respond immediately with "yes it is!" but in fact, it is not. Science Fiction means everything is explained through some sort of scientific function, not that it is set in the future. In 40k, things are explained through psyonics and sorcery. You cannot find the numbers to compare 40k with SW mathematically because they aren't there! You bring up numbers and assume that 40k is on the same scale with no way of showing that they are.

Furthermore, SW is not scientifically correct either, and I'm not talking about the force. Propulsion, particularly on the fighters, makes no sense. How is it that an X-Wing slows down entirely by reducing its main thrusters? In a place with as little friction as space, this doesn't make sense. An X-Wing, as well as every other ship that only has primary engines, would be extremely flawed. In space continuous thrust =/= continuous motion, yet in SW, ships in open space move as if they still had a complete atmosphere around them. Where are the reverse or maneuvering thrusters, or at least the flaps?

In essense, we cannot depend of science and mathematics to compare the two, as they both have elements in them that defy our current knowledge of both! All we *can* depend on is fluff and logically comparing the two. So in 40k fluff when it shows a Space Marine killing thousands in one battle, I'm going to depend on that as much as I am the Millinium Falcon swatting TIE fighters aside or a Jedi being able to deflect a laser!

I say the only real equation we can use is that a Stormtrooper is about the same as an Imperial Guardsman!


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## Baron Spikey

Been reading the arguments for both sides for the last couple of days and it seems to have boiled down to....

40K wins because I say it does and SW wins because the maths when comparing the little scientifically (a term I use VERY loosely here) available facts on both systems keeps on coming up with- SW rules the skies/void.

So please 40K guys, if your going to come up with a counter argument stop and actually bang out some research rather than your own perceptions/opinions on how something works...you've got NO proof so far!


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## Zorenthewise

Baron Spikey said:


> Been reading the arguments for both sides for the last couple of days and it seems to have boiled down to....
> 
> 40K wins because I say it does and SW wins because the maths when comparing the little scientifically (a term I use VERY loosely here) available facts on both systems keeps on coming up with- SW rules the skies/void.
> 
> So please 40K guys, if your going to come up with a counter argument stop and actually bang out some research rather than your own perceptions/opinions on how something works...you've got NO proof so far!


And if you read my last post, all that "proof" means nothing.


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## Unknown Primarch

and i agree with your last post too Zorenthewise. star destroyers find it hard to damage the millienium falcon and let x wings fly all around them, in 40k those ships would be destroyed in a instant. its very rare for enemy fighters to get all over a battle barge and continually attack them. there pretty much cannon fodder and to help distract from what the enemy battleships are doing. 
and star trek is even worse, they only have standard human troops that are not really battle hardened and the starships have only lasers and some torpedos. once you board a starfleet vessel its game over. send in a squad of terminators and the ship would be taken control of in half an hour. 

40k rules!


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## Morgal

Unknown Primarch said:


> and i agree with your last post too Zorenthewise. star destroyers find it hard to damage the millienium falcon and let x wings fly all around them, in 40k those ships would be destroyed in a instant. its very rare for enemy fighters to get all over a battle barge and continually attack them. there pretty much cannon fodder and to help distract from what the enemy battleships are doing.
> and star trek is even worse, they only have standard human troops that are not really battle hardened and the starships have only lasers and some torpedos. once you board a starfleet vessel its game over. send in a squad of terminators and the ship would be taken control of in half an hour.
> 
> 40k rules!


Lol startrek....awsome.
would love to see an episode where they find a battle barge or something and shiat themselves.
abandoned of course..but some big armored war ship with huge armour on the inside and they think...dang we would get pwned.


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## NoiseMarine

technically a death star cant destroy a planet at all because the 4 lasers that combine to form the turbo laser thingy would in all actuality just pass through eachother because that is simply not the way a laser works unless its plasma but its not so that really sucks for the empire...


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## Baron Spikey

So yet again your using the Star Wars FILMS as the basis for your arguments on how terrible certain ship's weapons are?!

If the films had been accurate (not a big SW fan, only like the films, not read the other stuff so please correct me if I'm wrong) it would have been a shitty SINGLE film where all the heroes got smeared all over space pretty damn quickly.


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## Daneel2.0

Unknown Primarch said:


> you keep talking math but im going on fluff as table top doesnt mean shit to me. what ever you have done for table top is great for any game players im not disputing that but in my mind its what the individual soldier or marine can do against storm trooper and jedi/sith that we have seen in film or game cut scenes. i know that a 40k special character would kill any jedi/sith though it would be a good battle not just a outright kill. looking at the laughable star destroyers weaponary in the films they dont seem to able to do much too much to a battle barge and most imperial armour would stand a great chance against alot of SW armour. obviously there is alot of exceptions depending on what you have facing each other but on a whole the imperium is more battle hardened, if it was able to have all its forces just taking on the empire instead of the countless enemies it has then the imperium is practically a unstoppable force and like ive said before if the two emperors meet then EoM would come out on top as he has the most control over his powers compared to palpatine and also he wasnt even the strongest sith lord.
> so you cant really denounce peoples views on the matter when not everyone is refering to tabletop stats, probably more people think of what would happen based on whats been seen in film.


Ok. I see where your primary misunderstanding is. I’m using the statistics for the RPG games for both systems (I don’t have access to the table top game for SW). For the 40K universe this is Dark Heresy and the associated books. For SW this is the new d20 version of the Star Wars RPG. Both paper and pencil, not table top.

Now, in addition to this, I do use fluff. If you look at my last post I deal with the issue of the Nova Cannon in particular in a INTENT kind of way. What is this intended to do

There are a ton of things that get included that factor into my decisions concerning the ability of the SW universe to fight an effective war against the battle hardened, veteran troops of the 40K universe. I believe I’ve been very open concerning my neutrality in the matter of which would win. I have repeatedly stated that I don’t know which would win, the math simply doesn’t support as much cross over as I would like to give a decisive decision either way. In addition there are a multitude of factors that can significantly influence a war like this; factors that can change the picture completely and are totally unpredictable.

Finally, you seem to want to pick and choose the fluff that you pay attention to with out paying the least bit of attention to the fluff that you don’t. If you wish to discuss the events that take place in one of the Movies, go out and read the book that movie is based on and I’ll discuss the book with you. Otherwise you are getting a Hollywood version of events that bear little or no similarity to the events as they took place in the books (which is the fluff). If you want to talk about Storm Troopers not hitting Luke during a battle, I’ll simply (and correctly) claim that he was unconsciously influencing both the troopers as well as the blaster bolts and causing them to miss. The troopers themselves were exceptionally good. Luke is just such a strong “psyker” that his influence extends beyond their competence. You don’t believe me, think about the end of the first movie when one of the best pilots and one of the strongest force users (Vader) can’t target him because “The Force is Strong with this one”.

Now you are almost certainly going to claim that the reason is because the 40K psykers are stronger than the SW force users. To which I’m going to say “Based on what evidence?” In 40K every so often a demon possesses a psyker and kills them off, and I’ve read the books. Nowhere does a Imperium psyker pull a battleship out of orbit. Luke did that. If it is a fluff battle you want, ok. You think 40K is hardened, show me a war where they lost 300+ TRILLION front line troops, managed to win and managed to significantly increase war material production over the course of the war.

The emperor thing is likewise pointless. The Imperium Emperor is stuck in the Golden Throne maintaining the Astronomicon. Who knows what will happen if he dies. Nowhere in fluff does it say. Discussing the “potential” outcome of a conflict that can NOT happen is futile.

Now I’m glad you “know” that a 40K special character would kill a SW special character. My son knows that you can slide off the tail of a T-Rex (like in Flintstones). Both are opinions, you are both entitled to them. You have never shown that your opinion has any more validity that his. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> i agree that SSD are the nuts, i actually would rather be in one of them than the deathstar which sounds odd but the SSD is like the maybach of spaceships as the deathstar is more of a transit van. the thing that swings me against SW starships is that in the movies the millenium falcon took some hits from a stardestroyer and it didnt do anything and the falcon was a poxy little freight runner. if the same fire power tried to destroy a battle barge then its like shooting teminator armour with a peagun, it aint gonna do shit.
> i suppose the downside is that the imperium hasnt got anything that compares to the deathstar really and probably the only thing in 40k universe of some similarity is the blackstone fortresses. i am surprised that the emperor didnt have some supership for him and his custodes to ride round the galaxy in and if he did maybe that had some serious firepower to maybe combat a SSD or DS. maybe future HH books will reveal a supership for the emp and we can continue this at another time.


The Millenium Falcon never took a hit from a Star Destroyer; Star Destroyers don’t even target small ships with Turbolasers. In the First movie (episode 4) It took some glancing hits from TIE fighters flying past it, but they were under very specific orders NOT to destroy the falcon while making it look like they were really after it. Vader INTENDED them to get away because he had a tracking device on the ship. In addition, Turbolasers were never meant for fighting against small ships like the falcon. They were meant for large ships like other battleships or escorts. They carry TIEs for fighter to fighter combat.

As to a super-ship for the Emperor, he never felt he needed one. His great sin was pride and for that pride he was defeated. He actually traveled around in a Lambda class transport when he needed to go somewhere. 



Wraithian said:


> In applying basic military theory, the, "he who controls the sky controls the war," concept becomes exponentially important when space travel/conflict enters the equation. Sure, marines are tough, and yeah, it may very well be that a marine is the best trooper in the comparison, bar none, but I don't care how mean a marine is--he's useless if his boarding craft/battlebarge/space transportation of any flavor is vaporized before he can arrive at his destination where his skills are required.


I prefer “He with Anti-matter wins”



Wraithian said:


> I dunno about you, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that if a space marine battle ship of some persuasion were to attempt to ram and board a super star destroyer, but my money's on the super star destroyer. Even if for some odd reason, the SSD only managed to get off one shot (maybe the other weapon batteries were a combination of engaging other targets, destroyed, whatever), the axial superlaser is pretty much the, "I win button," of that particular engagement.


Believe it or not, this is a situation where I disagree. If a Battleship were to ram a Star Destroyer it would cause significant damage. The Battleships of the Imperium are built along the lines of the Spanish Armada back when boarding actions were common. As such, they have massively reinforced construction and even more massive ramming prows that would tear up a Star Destroyer (in the event the shields were down). As to the ship to ship combat, that would depend on boarding locations, number and composition of boarders, the variety of Star Destroyers rammed, the composition of the crew and many, many other such variables.

Like I said though, in ramming to boarding actions I favor 40K to win.



Wraithian said:


> Even if I subscribed to your logic of, "what I've seen trumps numbers," I'd have to still bet on the SSD. It's armed with a planet cracking laser. An imperial vessel, no matter the size, isn't as large as a planet, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the axial superlaser can crack any imperial vessel. I don't need numbers for that. :wink:


Like I’ve said, I favor the SW too , as odds seem to line up in their favor. This doesn’t mean they would achieve victory however. Again, too many factors to consider. Planet cracker weapons on Star Destroyers are a bit of a problem though  I only know of 2 such weapon system in 40K. One is Abbadon’s Planet Killer Battleship. Look at the devastation he has caused with that one ship. The SW Empire has 15 of them, all with larger support fleets that the total fleet he came out of the Eye of Terror with. The other of course is the combined fire power of 2 Blackstone Fortresses. And since there seems to be just 1 of those left, and it’s in the hands of Abbadon too, well it’s tough to be an Imperial I suppose. (NOTE: I disregard the viral bomb type weapons here since, while they are ship based weapons, they are a different class - specifically bombardment style weapons. I have chosen for the purposes of brevity in an already long post, to ignore them for both sides)



Unknown Primarch said:


> obviously you missed my point, which was the math is good but alot of people go by what they have seen visually so how can that amount to shit. the galactic empire didnt have any really strong enemies like the imperium so think if they lived in a galaxy without major threat then the amount of ships, soldiers, marines and any other specialist forces that they would have equired would definatly tip the balance in the imperiums favour. maybe you could come up with some hard numbers your so fond of.


Whether they go by what they see or not, it doesn’t subtract from my arguments, or make the math worthless. It just means their opinions are based on less fact and more emotion. The Galactic Empire had serious enemies, they just didn’t get play in the movies, but yes, as far as readiness is concerned, I have repeatedly given the edge to the 40K Imperium. As for hard numbers, how do you calculate the difference a veteran makes to a individual battle, and how do you measure the differences in veterans of different kinds of conflicts? Hard to put numbers to something like that. You just say “The Imperium has an edge here” and leave it there.



Morgal said:


> This may be why most don't take this thread serously.
> not realy knowing the SW fluff I look at the star destroyer and see nothing on par with a battle cruiser mounting tons of broad side lances and really really big guns...the star destroyers little lazzers don't look like much. never mind torpeddo's and such.


I can’t help you here. If you make up your mind, disregarding the math from both systems, based on nothing but visual effects from a movie and descriptive text from a book then you have made up your mind. What I can say is you’re wrong. There are some Imperial Battleships that are larger that some Star Destroyers. But the SW tech is far superior and miniaturization and power sources make a large difference. 

To repeat, again, Star Destroyer Lasers are *VERY* comprable to 40K lances. Their descriptive language is similar, their intended effect is similar, their use is similar, their damage is similar. Don’t agree, prove it. 

You are right concerning torpedo’s however. 40K has nothing to compare with SW torpedos. 40K Imperium uses plasma torpedoes. SW uses plasma, proton, EMP, fusion, concussion, KE, dumb-fire explosive torpedoes as well as my favorite, the resonance torpedo which will cause a star to super nova.



Morgal said:


> Star destroyers may have a bigger gun than those turrets but really i don't see them being hard enough to break through the prow and shields of a battleship.
> 
> This compared to full on broad side and longer than range of sight weapons. I still don't think the 2 are comparable.
> 
> 40k wins hands down it's not even funny. even a few 40k ships wins.


The comparisons of star ship armor is difficult, but I give the edge to the 40K Imperium here. They use much thicker armor in multiple layers (3-4 different hulls each of which can be several meters thick). The problem they have is their armor is almost completely flat. No sloping at all. In contrast, the SW Empire uses significant sloping but fewer hulls (2) and less thickness (1-2 meters). Additionally, the materials are different giving no real way to compare the two. This is one of the situation’s I feel least confident in. The 40K ship armor could in fact be much stronger, or due to sloping and material differences, much weaker. As I said, I tend to give the edge to 40K here.

Shields are another matter entirely. SW uses 3 different types of shields commonly on all spaceships. The first is an energy shield that serves to protect against mass weapons and energy weapons. The second is a particle shield which serves to deflect away highly polarized particles (like plasmas or magnetic bottles around anti-matter, or ion blasts). The third is radiation shielding which is heavily used both inside and outside of ships to protect against internal contamination as well as external weaponry (like nuclear fission or fusion weapons). Each of these shields is specialized to protect against a single kind of damage and is transparent to the others. In 40K a single shield serves to protect vs. all these threats. This has 2 implications. First is that, assuming the electrical engineering tech is the same, you can pour 3x the energy into SW shields as 40K shields. Second, the weakening of 1 shield has no impact on the weakening of any other shields. Taken together this means that SW shields are at least 3 times stronger and 3x more damage resistance than 40K shields.

So while it is accurate (I think) to say that 40K ship armor is better, it is not accurate to say their shields are.

As for range - once again just no. You can't have light years of range (and you can see that far in space with the use of even simple sensors).

So for the 4th or 5th time *NO*. SW starships have a tremendous advantage against 40K ships. By the math, it takes about 3 Imperium Battleships to take a single Star Destroyer. This assumes that 1 of the 3 battleships have a nova cannon but not the other 2 and that the Star Destroyer does NOT have an axial superlaser. Since the Imperium Battleships are outnumbered approximately 1000 to 1 the chances of finding a 1 to 3 battle are slim to none.



Zorenthewise said:


> This is a response to the previous response to my last post.
> 
> Your mathematical skill is stunning and shows us a lot about your knowledge of both matehmatical prinsiples as well as the Star Wars universe. However, with your math and logic, you have not proven yourself right, but rather both of our points moot.


I make no claim on who would win (I will repeat again). I merely compare weapon systems and tell you who I think has the edge.



Zorenthewise said:


> You showed us that the Nova Cannon doesn't make sense. It is poorly designed and could not actually exist in the real world. Yet, in the 40k universe, _it does!_ Oh and a Lance is not a turbolaser. A turbolaser has the power to blow up a fighter in one shot, but the beam from a Lance is often a continuous, steady beam that is the size of the smaller mechant vessels! Also, 40k ships fire much more than just laser batteries, and have countless guns (seriously, they never give us a number ) that fire good old fashion projectiles.


Right. I dealt with this in my post, as I dealt with this exact response. “Dude! A Lance is not a Turbolaser” argument consequently ignored. Besides the increased diameter of the Lance weapon actually makes it a significantly LESS powerful weapon. Also less precise. I realize they have countless guns, but those countless guns, when taken together, give you 1 defensive battery worth of fire power. They may be countless, but they are also pretty useless singly. 

As for the Nova cannon I stated what the intent was. I also stated that it isn’t, to the best of my knowledge, a 1 shot planet killer. This makes it, by INTENT and FLUFF and MATH, less powerful than a Axial superlaser. If you have a concrete example to show me where I’m wrong in either of the 3 areas, I’ll gladly look it up (even if it means buying the book the source comes from).



Zorenthewise said:


> The main mistake with using math here, is that 40k is not a science fiction. Most people are going to respond immediately with "yes it is!" but in fact, it is not. Science Fiction means everything is explained through some sort of scientific function, not that it is set in the future. In 40k, things are explained through psyonics and sorcery. You cannot find the numbers to compare 40k with SW mathematically because they aren't there! You bring up numbers and assume that 40k is on the same scale with no way of showing that they are.


All life is math. You (and by that I mean you in the general sense to include all people everywhere) may not know the equations that govern it, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Besides, I did find numbers to compare the two systems, as explained, and verified through peer review. Not only did I find numbers, I found CANNON numbers. The fact that they don’t say what you want them to say, is irrelevant both to me and the numbers.

As I have explained, I based all my numbers on the Dark Heresy RPG and the Star Wars RPG. My base line assumption was that a standard, unmodified human with no training was the same in both systems. Since humans exist in both systems, and you have to have a defined average in both systems (defined by them, not me) I simply equated the two average humans and normalized everything from there. 

Now if you have a problem with my method or my assumption, please feel free to fire away. Just don’t start with “Space Marines aren’t normal humans” cause I didn’t use them, or IG, or any military person in 40K, nor did I use a military class when applied to Star Wars for the baseline human. Arguments along this line will be classed with the “Dude…..Lance…..Turbolaser” arguments and ignored outright.



Zorenthewise said:


> Furthermore, SW is not scientifically correct either, and I'm not talking about the force. Propulsion, particularly on the fighters, makes no sense. How is it that an X-Wing slows down entirely by reducing its main thrusters? In a place with as little friction as space, this doesn't make sense. An X-Wing, as well as every other ship that only has primary engines, would be extremely flawed. In space continuous thrust =/= continuous motion, yet in SW, ships in open space move as if they still had a complete atmosphere around them. Where are the reverse or maneuvering thrusters, or at least the flaps?


Tell me about it. I added the junk science critique to the Nova Gun because I find junk science personally insulting and have a hard time accepting it. I have the same problems with Star Wars (in case you wonder – lasers that make noise, space ships that yaw and pitch, ion reactors providing fast propulsion, lightsabers and lightwhips, etc.) The number of “scientific” mistakes in both systems is so mind boggling I could spend days picking them apart (quotes around scientific because between the time that SW and 40K were written to now our scientific understanding has changed. I’m good with mistakes, not fake) The reason I haven’t included it concerning SW up to this point is because I managed to remain fairly on topic. The Nova Cannon was just SO stupid I couldn’t contain my ire. :ire2: I apologize for the diversion into rant land.

As far as it goes, and as much as it irritates me personally, there IS some valid use of technobabble. It is unfortunate but a lot of what is real would also have been unbelievable to the public at large. This is a common problem talked about by authors when they write books or scripts for movies. “I know X is how it really happens, but nobody will believe that. Lets do Y instead because it is something the audience will be familiar with and it will LOOK / FEEL right to them when they encounter it.”



Zorenthewise said:


> In essense, we cannot depend of science and mathematics to compare the two, as they both have elements in them that defy our current knowledge of both! All we *can* depend on is fluff and logically comparing the two. So in 40k fluff when it shows a Space Marine killing thousands in one battle, I'm going to depend on that as much as I am the Millinium Falcon swatting TIE fighters aside or a Jedi being able to deflect a laser!
> 
> I say the only real equation we can use is that a Stormtrooper is about the same as an Imperial Guardsman!


I don’t depend on science, I use it robustly and invite others to verify, critique or counter using methods that have objective, discrete rules and procedures. As science is intended to be used. As for math, well if they stat it in cannon sources, I can use their stats for valid comparisons. You are wrong in this regard. They both have elements that defy our current understanding of the universe, but someone at GW created a math system to express these elements in terms we can understand. This gives me every right to compare the two, logically and mathematically. 

You accept the Storm Trooper / Imperial Guardsman comparison because you like it. If I had done the exact same math the exact same way and found a Storm Trooper equal to a Terminator Veteran Sergeant, you would bitch about it too (whereas I would question the method I employed or the underlying assumption I made). Besides, if you accept that then you accept the fundamental assumption on which I base my math and you have NO legitimate reason to reject the conclusions made by the SAME method applied to different things. I’m sorry you don’t like the math. I’m sorry you don’t like the conclusions. But not really.


----------



## Zorenthewise

I don't accept the Guardsman-stormtrooper equation because I like it, but because it makes sense. I didn't even know that you had made that equation, that was pulled from my own head and logic. They both are highly trained, wear some form of armor (even if it isn't very effective), have rapid-fire laser weaponry, and are in a structured military organization. Yeah, the empire loses trillions of men in some wars, but they are fighting things that do not compare to SW forces. If you can come up with a force from SW with half the power that is in the Eye of the Warp alone, not to mention the Orks, nids, Necrons, and other threats I will be impressed. So the 40k Imperium dies more. They fight more too.

The reason I don't accept the space combat figures, if because as you stated, we don't even know the properties of the materials that thier armor is made up of. Your 3 against 1 battleship to star destroyer equation *doesn't make any sense*. Those cannon numbers in BFG are relative damage given to the basic armor material in 40k, which is commonly plasteel or rockcrete, neither of which exist. They are numbers that only fit inside its own system, and finding a corelation between the two stats is not finding a fact.

Furthermore, I am not questioning your method in any way. I am questioning your variables. You are ascribing strength, firepower, and armor to the star wars standard without any way of checking the variables. Yes the RPG's are better at this than the tabletop games, but they aren't very realistic either. I would think the use of Inquisitor stat lines vs. some form of Star Wars equivalent would make more sense.

And I just though how fun it would be to see a Wookie and an Ork fight it out.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

ok ill try and counter some of your points but seeing as you post nearly a page of stuff at a time it gets hard to keep track of things.

firstly, when i first started posting on here my arguement was who would win between the galactic empire and the imperium so i was comparing them but added a few things about the falcon to point out their incapabilities. 
you said about 40k special characters not being able to combat SW characters but out of maybe a few dozen SW ones avaliable how would they be able to defeat primarchs, chapter masters, librarians, chaplains, dreadnoughts, even tech marines and so forth. 
the galactic empire had two main force sensitive characters and some behind the scenes ones that werent as powerful for obvious reasons. so to put them up against the imperiums strongest who would out number them by great margins. one thing is that the light saber is the deadliest melee weapon and would do great damage to any opponent if given the chance.

you said "You think 40K is hardened, show me a war where they lost 300+ TRILLION front line troops, managed to win and managed to significantly increase war material production over the course of the war." i presume this has happened in starwars but this also happened at the horus heresy and has continued to be the case for the last 10k years in 40k. there is a continued turn over of troops, weapons and destruction and this will continue for a while yet so dont think 40k has gone soft just yet.

when i mentioned about a supership for the emperor i meant the emperor of mankind. never seen anything anywhere but surely the guy had some great ship for a guy of his statuer. i can picture it being the best ship the mechanicus had ever made and being armoured up to fuck and probably the navigator being the emperor himself.

anything you want me to answer just lay out a few questions and i will reply when i can.


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## Baron Spikey

call me ignorant if you wish, but neither yourself [Unknown Primarch] or Zorenthewise have 'answered' anything, you've just said how much you THINK 40K would own SW. 
And sorry but SW Storm Troopers shit on your average Guardsman from a great height...


----------



## Daneel2.0

Zorenthewise said:


> I don't accept the Guardsman-stormtrooper equation because I like it, but because it makes sense. I didn't even know that you had made that equation, that was pulled from my own head and logic. They both are highly trained, wear some form of armor (even if it isn't very effective), have rapid-fire laser weaponry, and are in a structured military organization. Yeah, the empire loses trillions of men in some wars, but they are fighting things that do not compare to SW forces. If you can come up with a force from SW with half the power that is in the Eye of the Warp alone, not to mention the Orks, nids, Necrons, and other threats I will be impressed. So the 40k Imperium dies more. They fight more too.


It makes sense to your emotions. You have NO evidence, concrete or otherwise, to support such a conclusion. All you have is conjecture about how you think the different technologies stack up against each other based on author interpretation of what would make a good story in an imaginary world. If you didn’t know I made the comparison, I’d suggest you take the time to read the thread that you are posting to. To do otherwise wastes my time and everyone else’s time.

Now, I have the cannon RPG stats and a mathematics method to normalize the two universes in a discrete, concrete way that is independent of my preferences and independent of interpretation (mine or an authors). The GW cannon RPG gives a math based system to have individual components of their universe work the way they intended it to. Likewise, the SW RPG gives a different math based system to navigate interactions in their universe. By normalizing those math based systems I can get an objective system that inter-relates how the Cannon sources want Both of their own systems to interact internally. If you don’t like the math I use, propose something different. Just realize that in order to be accepted, it better be more than I THINK that these things are the same and these others aren’t. “They are highly trained, wear some form of armor, have rapid fire laser weapons and structured in military organization” Applies to both a elite commando soldier and a military chef wearing a leather apron using a laser boning knife.

By the way, the Vong armies are a force such as the one you ask for. They combine the bio-engineering skills of the Tyranids (only with intent) with the technology and culture of Chaos. They use ARTIFICIALLY CREATED BLACK HOLES as a defensive weapon. Successfully conquered and committed genocide against all the races of their home galaxy and traveled across the galactic gulf to this one after coming into contact with a Scouting Force Palpatine sent out. It was one of the primary motivating factors that led him to the realization that he had to take over the galaxy. He knew that the Old Republic couldn’t face the Vong threat his scouts reported and he wanted to gear the Galaxy up for the war he knew was coming. The New Republic (which I think everyone can agree was less ready for war, and less capable during wartime than the Empire, but better than the Old Republic) managed to defeat them utterly. Contrast that to the “success” the Imperium had against Hive Fleet Leviathan. They just barely managed to survive due to the sacrifice of enough planets to divert the nids to Ork space. Otherwise they would have been beaten – and still may be once the war with the Orks is over. Then, once the planets were sacrificed, they excommunicated the guy that saved them. 



Zorenthewise said:


> The reason I don't accept the space combat figures, if because as you stated, we don't even know the properties of the materials that thier armor is made up of. Your 3 against 1 battleship to star destroyer equation *doesn't make any sense*. Those cannon numbers in BFG are relative damage given to the basic armor material in 40k, which is commonly plasteel or rockcrete, neither of which exist. They are numbers that only fit inside its own system, and finding a corelation between the two stats is not finding a fact.


First you’re wrong. Both plasteel and rockcrete exist; I’m just giving 40K universe the benefit of the doubt in saying they aren’t the same thing in the game as they are in real life. 

Second, you’re wrong. I most certainly CAN compare the two based on how they handle damage from weapons that I have normalized. Take the number of hits for 40K ships to drop shields and hulls and assign a value based on the amount of raw damage (at min, average and max damage for the weapon) that the armor sustains (giving 3 values something like 100 / 50 / 25 and say 100 / 50 / 25 hypothetically). This gives an average of 58 points of shield strength and 58 points of hull strength for the hypothetical ship.

Once I have this number for a 40K ship, I run the SAME weapon through the normalization method and convert its damage into the other system. Then I run the damage (again at min, ave, and max) against the ship I’m interested in. This gives me say 10 shield points and 100 hull points. This allows me to directly compare ships based on hull and shield strength. Then a rearm them with their stock weapons and check to see how their min, average and max damage output (by range) works out. Once I have that, I know how many hits it takes to reduce the ship to scrap in 1 turn. You do this twice for each comparison. Once to normalize the 40K weapon to SW terms and once to normalize the SW weapon to 40K terms as a control to make sure that the results are the same (numbers will be different, results the same). Once I have this done twice for each comparison, I add a factor of error based on the differences in the standard humans of about 5%. This factor of error is why I say “This side has the edge” rather than “This side will win under these circumstances.” Once I’m done with the math portion of the comparison, I look at the fluff and make a judgement concerning whether or not this stacks up in fluff terms. Thus a super weapon, like an axial super laser or a blackstone fortress, should be able to cause similar levels of damage (based on descriptions of the weapons working). If the math agrees with the fluff evaluation then I post my results. Otherwise I go back and figure out another way of making comparisons. 

I realize this works a little different that “I Think”, but I Think it is a better approach.

As to your argument that the comparison isn’t fact, I realize this isn’t a perfect method of comparisons. Short of GW and Lucas getting together and writing out a combined system, this is what you have until you propose another way of comparing. As far as it goes, if GW and Lucas were to sit down to write a combined system, they would probably use a similar normalization technique and the fudge to make the universes balance more fully so that the playability even and fair. Since I’m not interested in fair playability, I don’t feel constrained in that way.



Zorenthewise said:


> Furthermore, I am not questioning your method in any way. I am questioning your variables. You are ascribing strength, firepower, and armor to the star wars standard without any way of checking the variables. Yes the RPG's are better at this than the tabletop games, but they aren't very realistic either. I would think the use of Inquisitor stat lines vs. some form of Star Wars equivalent would make more sense.
> 
> And I just though how fun it would be to see a Wookie and an Ork fight it out.


As I mentioned above, I don’t do this. I ascribe strength, firepower and armor to both the SW and 40K standards including all the variables I have access to. If you have some kind of variable I’ve failed to account for, let me know. 

As to the Inquisitor stat line comparison, you are wrong. You have to start with normal, average, unmodified and untrained as everything you add, makes the normalization more difficult, if not impossible.

But yes, and Ork vs. a Wookie would be a fun fight to watch.



Unknown Primarch said:


> ok ill try and counter some of your points but seeing as you post nearly a page of stuff at a time it gets hard to keep track of things.
> 
> firstly, when i first started posting on here my arguement was who would win between the galactic empire and the imperium so i was comparing them but added a few things about the falcon to point out their incapabilities.


Ok, I don’t understand your complaint here. You wanted SW Empire vs. 40K Imperium and that’s what you have. Your perceived incapability’s are immaterial to the debate at hand. If you want to say that the SW universe is worse than the 40K universe you can, but it doesn’t make it so.





Unknown Primarch said:


> you said about 40k special characters not being able to combat SW characters but out of maybe a few dozen SW ones avaliable how would they be able to defeat primarchs, chapter masters, librarians, chaplains, dreadnoughts, even tech marines and so forth.


This is actually not what I said. I stated that I didn’t want to directly compare named characters in the two systems because I can’t find the stats for some of the characters people were interested in. Any comparison would, therefore, be completely subjective and based on just my own interpretation of the events. Since I’m the one providing the math, I thought this might add undue weight to my comparison AS IF I HAD run the math. This is one of the reasons I’m very careful to indicate where I didn’t use math so that people know that we are entering territory that is solely based on my opinion.

As far as how the SW special characters would match up, my original objection still applies. Until I have numbers to run, I’ll avoid making any speculation. This also means that I don’t have pre-conceived notions of how the fight should turn out before running the numbers. 

It’s pretty hard for logic to override emotion. Unfortunately it’s pretty easy for emotion to override logic.



Unknown Primarch said:


> the galactic empire had two main force sensitive characters and some behind the scenes ones that werent as powerful for obvious reasons. so to put them up against the imperiums strongest who would out number them by great margins. one thing is that the light saber is the deadliest melee weapon and would do great damage to any opponent if given the chance.


Again, this is movie logic. The Empire had thousands of force users during the times of Palpatine. Vader and Palpatine both had 3 apprentices after the jedi purges. 2 of the Grand Admirals were Force Sensitive. ALL of the emperor’s guard were force sensitive (and he had hundreds of elite guard – think the guys in the red suits). Saying that there were only 2 is a sizeable mistake. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> you said "You think 40K is hardened, show me a war where they lost 300+ TRILLION front line troops, managed to win and managed to significantly increase war material production over the course of the war." i presume this has happened in starwars but this also happened at the horus heresy and has continued to be the case for the last 10k years in 40k. there is a continued turn over of troops, weapons and destruction and this will continue for a while yet so dont think 40k has gone soft just yet.


The Horus Heresy was nothing like that. First they only lost a couple measly billion. Second their war material production rates PLUMETED. The lost access to a couple of forge worlds and lost a couple unique STC machines. This devastated their war time production capabilities, especially since they can’t build more STCs. Whereas Star Wars galaxy they lost many more planets than in the Heresy, some with ship yards, some without, but they built ship yards and ships so fast their losses weren’t devastating. They can replace what they lose. The same cannot be said to that degree with the 40K Imperium.



Unknown Primarch said:


> when i mentioned about a supership for the emperor i meant the emperor of mankind. never seen anything anywhere but surely the guy had some great ship for a guy of his statuer. i can picture it being the best ship the mechanicus had ever made and being armoured up to fuck and probably the navigator being the emperor himself.
> 
> anything you want me to answer just lay out a few questions and i will reply when i can.


Hard to say, but it doesn’t really matter all that much since they don’t have it now. It could be an interesting idea for a mod though. 40K armor and construction, SW tech and design. Nice ship!
:biggrin:


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## Unknown Primarch

ok, i will instead state i know 40k would own SW. 

storm troopers arent anything special, standard imperial guard are quite varied in there specialities (ie heavy weapons, flamers, snipers) but there weapons can do the same damage as a imperial blaster. storm trooper armour isnt invincible. SW havent got any super troopers and especially nothing to go up against a space marine. a space marine librarian could battle a jedi/sith and come out on top once that explosive bolt round hits the spot never mind any warp powers they have. 
roll up a titan on a at-st and it would get vapourised by its weapons and it would get outmanuovered anytime. jesus they got taken down with a cable, so im sure a volcano cannon wont leave much left. 
get a few battalions of baneblades and they will defeat any other vehicles of the empire and then go on to murder any storm trooper still hanging around. 
a sentinal looks more powerful than a at-at even if the at-at seems to have a higher rate of fire but that got smashed to pieces by to logs so that heavy laser will shread the at-at.

anything else you want answering make a list and ill get back to you.


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## Unknown Primarch

last post to baronspikey


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## Col. Schafer

I take offense of your comparison of SW storm troopers to my army Baron spikely Lol. Manny people tell jokes (me included) about flack and las. But the point is that is all storm troopers have (well basically carapace but it doesn’t make much difference in the long run, as they are worse shots) It seems to me that the sheer size of the Impirium's forces would tend to fuck the SW people, as they have many thousands of ships as opposed to a Fleet. he Jedi would be an advantage, but let’s face it light sabers are power weapons.
I agree on the consensus that 300yada+ dead is a byproduct of larger wars.

NOW.

"...and star trek is even worse, they only have standard human troops that are not really battle hardened and the starships have only lasers and some torpedoes. once you board a Starfleet vessel its game over. send in a squad of terminators and the ship would be taken control of in half an hour." 

YEAHHH... No. Yes terminators can teleport, but that takes energy and let’s see them teleport internship distances, also the ship would be moving so you would likely miss. In the unlikely event they did land on the ship, they are fucked, as all they have to do is activate containment field XYZ and the terminators are trapped. I am assuming they are unable to teleport after the original deep strike, and if they can I doubt that they can keep it up, as it would take lots of power, also I don’t know how terminators teleportation would work but I do know that shields can block beaming so If it works on a similar principle than they wouldn’t be able to get on anyway unless the ship had already had its shields fucked, in which case any good captain would self destruct and give his life to delay the enemy.
On the subject of troops, have you ever heard of Klingons, Remens, Vulkans, or Jhem-Hadar(Yes I know that’s not how you spell it) Lets take them one at a time shall we?
Klingons:
I have seen a klingon survive both a blast from a borg weapon and a short span of vacuum and come out of it ready to kick ass, which he did. Not perfect but they could at least hold off normal SM's in close combat. I will address shooting later. They are allied to the federation so it is likely in sutch a war the federation would have access to their troops as allies. They also have many of the system redundancies that SM's do (hearts livers lungs etc)
Remens:
Remens have senses comparable to that of the wolverine from the X-men(X-men readers will realize how awesome that actually is). As well as strength genetically bread in by several thousand years of slavery and hard labor for the entire race, there are records (according to Picard) of military units of them decimating whole Jhem-Hadar positions. They also have excellent night vision good for ambushing. 
Vulkans:
An army of Mr. Spok. Need I say more? Probably, considering I seem to be the only treky here so let’s put it this way, basically immune to psychological warfare, mildly psychic, 3X stronger than humans, age very slowly, they have developed an unparalleled understanding of humanoid anatomy, ala the vulkan nerve pinch witch incapacitates with a single touch as well as many other very effective moves.
Jhem-Hadar
Can turn invisible and are stronger than klingons. As well as having technology superior to the federation the klingons and the Romulans combined. Technology to be addressed later.

As far as shooting goes, let’s put it this way, when faced by a ship armed with laser batteries captain Picard laughed and lowered the shields. This brings us to the assumption that even the most worthless phaser is stronger by magnitudes than a good laser. And Phasers can be adjusted to have many times their intended output. Now, I don’t have anything better than a comparison of a bolter to a grenade launcher to go by, but if a grenade hit a 1 M thick rock wall it would likely put a small to medium sized hole in it and send a cloud of debris everywhere, I have seen hand phasers instantly vaporize rocks of such a size and larger on a medium setting. Oh and everyone else besides the federation uses disrupters as they are considerably more powerful.
As far as ship combat Plasma weapons can be problematic as demonstrated by Captain kirks first encounter with the romulans, which have plasma technology and poned him, but then he poned them so it’s all good. I.e. he was able to take them out with 1 very well placed shot once he found them, as they had cloaking technology. The one shot should not be considered a good representation of romulan technology as he was captain fucking kirk. 
Which brings me to cloaking technology. My ship is invisible until I decide to shoot you. I'd say that sums it up pretty well. There is the chance you might pick up some tachyon radiation, but for some reason only captains of the enterprise or commanders of DS9 seem to be able to do that. :laugh:
Now, Beaming would be a huge tactical advantage as far as troop deployment I have to say but mitigated by the fact that you have to lower your shields to beam, so that’s a 2 sided coin.
Now, If the Impirium faced the Borg I think we all know what would happen. also the Q, but that’s like getting the gods of chaos to work together. :laugh:

If I made any huge errors please point them out, just adding my knowledge to the debate.


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## Red Orc

Unknown Primarch said:


> you keep talking math but im going on fluff as table top doesnt mean shit to me... probably more people think of what would happen based on whats been seen in film.


Well, based on films and not on any kind of 'real' comparison, SW wins without a fight, because there are 6 of them and no 40k films.

The galaxy of Star Wars is fictional. The galaxy of 40k, though (perhaps) intended to represent ours, is also fictional. One is primarily the setting for films, but also books and games, the other is primarily a setting for a game, but also books and other games.

In these fictional settings, any statements about "A from B would cream X from Y" are meaningless. "Wombles can take Moomins any day of the week!" "GRR! Peter Pan is harder than Frodo!" "Harry Potter in Year 4 would bitch-slap Sabrina the Teenage witch!". "A Sentinel looks more powerful than an AT-ST..."... I mean, what sort of argument is that? A steam-tank looks more powerful than a plasma-cannon dev squad. So what? What do they perform like? That's the important question. Without a basis for comparison, these kinds of statements have no validity beyond opinion based on... well, not evidence. Let's call it "prejudice", because that's what it is - a "pre-judging". You aren't providing any evidence, and you're ignoring the evidence others provide.

You can compare novels, because novels about both SW and 40k exist. If you do, you find Space Marines aren't all that good: normal humans can kill Chaos Space Marines (comparable to loyalist Space Marines), eg Tanith First and Only. So the invulnerability of Space Marines must be regarded as suspect from the angle of fluff. If normal humans can kill quantities of SMs, that perhaps in fluff terms makes them _weaker_ than Stormtroopers, as a chunk of the heroes in SW are superior, Jedi-trained, "strong with the Force" types, the notable exceptions (from the movies anyway) being Han and Lando.

Then again you can compare games, and that's exactly what Daneel has done. He's taken the mechanics of two of the games systems and come up with meaningful comparisons between them, finding out how they treat normal human strengths and weaknesses, weapons, armour, shields, ships and a host of other things. The result is as 'scientific' as it can be - in other words, the generation of data sets, and the comparison between them.

You might not like the results, but hey ho. You might not like a lot of things, I don't know, but you don't get a better answer just by claiming someone else is wrong. we know you think 40k would beat Star Wars, but repeatedly when asked why you reply in essence "because 40k would beat Star Wars" - no evidence, just wishing. If the Emperor were real, you loyalty would surely be noted. He isn't, he was made up by a bearded headbanger who never got a proper day-job.

:comparative cyclops:


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## Daneel2.0

Col. Schafer said:


> I take offense of your comparison of SW storm troopers to my army Baron spikely Lol. Manny people tell jokes (me included) about flack and las. But the point is that is all storm troopers have (well basically carapace but it doesn’t make much difference in the long run, as they are worse shots) It seems to me that the sheer size of the Impirium's forces would tend to fuck the SW people, as they have many thousands of ships as opposed to a Fleet. he Jedi would be an advantage, but let’s face it light sabers are power weapons.
> I agree on the consensus that 300yada+ dead is a byproduct of larger wars.


Sign. Please refer to post 93 on page 10 or thereabout. Or any of the other 4 or 5 posts I’ve made on this exact subject. Star Wars has so many more ships of every description that comparisons are hardly worth while. It isn’t unusual for middle income people to have space capable ships for traveling in system. They are ALL armed to a greater or lesser extent. It is downright common for wealthy people to have space yachts with full military rigs and hyperspace engines. It isn’t unlikely for a wealthy person to have a fleet of such craft. They are almost as common as cars here in the states. Not quite, but close.

The Star Wars System has more people, more troops, more infrastructure, more shipyards, more ships, more tanks, more droids, more of everything. Which makes a certain amount of sense considering the Empire controls most of the galaxy (and has ventured to the nearest galaxy beyond) while the Imperium doesn’t even control ¼ of the galaxy.



Col. Schafer said:


> Which brings me to cloaking technology. My ship is invisible until I decide to shoot you. I'd say that sums it up pretty well. There is the chance you might pick up some tachyon radiation, but for some reason only captains of the enterprise or commanders of DS9 seem to be able to do that. :laugh:


Wait, so Star Trek gets the advantage for cloaking technology, but when I point out that Star Wars has cloaking technology, nothing? Where is the consistency?


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## Unknown Primarch

ok yet again i have to say that i bring a decent arguement and some proof by saying that at-ats got destroyed by 2 logs smashing its head in so a sentinal with its heavy laser will be able to have a impact on the at-ats armour. is that a valid answer?

a at-st doesnt seem to have any sheilds as rebel fighters were able to fly in and around it and defeat it with a cable and a grenade to its inner workings which made a big explosion. so a shot from a volcano cannon will do awesome damage, probably not leaving much left of it actually. is that good enough?

storm trooper armour isnt anything special and neither is their accuracy so them going up against battle hardened imperial troops lead by a hardcore commissar isnt gonna produce a ass whooping for the imperium. hell if they went up against kasrkin who wear a armour as standard who do you think will come out on top?

get the custodes out and put them up against palpatines redguards who will get torn to pieces. why because the custodes are beings with the powers close to a primarch and they were able to fight against daemons who are very powerful being. its probably easier for people to see the outcome of SW when compared to foes its harder to say would lose. whats the math for SW against chaos, necrons, orks, nids and tau. i dont think eldar would stand much of a chance as they are too smaller number to defeat a force the size of imperial troops. they would be excellent against force beings but would lose a war of attrition.

but lastly, did the creator of this thread ever mention anything about the math and actually trying to prove who would win. like someone else said its impossible to do it math wise as noone knows how each universes materials fair in strength terms and how much power peoples sheilds are and so forth so you go on about my answer being wrong and you lot coming with all this waffle but it doesnt have any scientific base so your answers are equally wrong as what you say mine is. im going on what ive seen, read and heard about and making my own opinion based on that, not some flawed data from god knows were.


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## Red Orc

Unknown Primarch said:


> ok yet again i have to say that i bring a decent arguement and some proof by saying that at-ats got destroyed by 2 logs smashing its head in so a sentinal with its heavy laser will be able to have a impact on the at-ats armour. is that a valid answer?


I don't remember any AT-ATs being destroyed by logs. AT-STs yes. As to being destroyed by a heavy laser... do you have any evidence that a heavy laser has more destructive power than two logs?



Unknown Primarch said:


> ...a at-st doesnt seem to have any sheilds as rebel fighters were able to fly in and around it and defeat it with a cable and a grenade to its inner workings which made a big explosion. so a shot from a volcano cannon will do awesome damage, probably not leaving much left of it actually. is that good enough?


Absolutely, I think we can all assume without reading the stats that a volcano cannon has more destructive power than a meltabomb, say. But by the same token, SW has awesome weapons and 40k has troop carriers. An ion cannon could destroy a landraider easily (in all probability, given that I haven't checked). But it's an easy claim to make.




Unknown Primarch said:


> ... storm trooper armour isnt anything special and neither is their accuracy so them going up against battle hardened imperial troops lead by a hardcore commissar isnt gonna produce a ass whooping for the imperium. hell if they went up against kasrkin who wear a armour as standard who do you think will come out on top?


No, this is just opinion, with nothing to back it up.



Unknown Primarch said:


> get the custodes out and put them up against palpatines redguards who will get torn to pieces. why because the custodes are beings with the powers close to a primarch and they were able to fight against daemons who are very powerful being...


Again without basis for comparison this is just supposition.



Unknown Primarch said:


> ...its probably easier for people to see the outcome of SW when compared to foes its harder to say would lose. whats the math for SW against chaos, necrons, orks, nids and tau. i dont think eldar would stand much of a chance as they are too smaller number to defeat a force the size of imperial troops. they would be excellent against force beings but would lose a war of attrition.
> 
> but lastly, did the creator of this thread ever mention anything about the math and actually trying to prove who would win. like someone else said its impossible to do it math wise as noone knows how each universes materials fair in strength terms and how much power peoples sheilds are and so forth so you go on about my answer being wrong and you lot coming with all this waffle but it doesnt have any scientific base so your answers are equally wrong as what you say mine is. im going on what ive seen, read and heard about and making my own opinion based on that, not some flawed data from god knows were.


The data comes from the two game systems, so it is at least consistent and capable of being measured and assessed, not some stream-of-conscious free-for-all that's going on in your head, which isn't capable of evaluation by anyone other than you. You can claim you 'know' as much as you like. The fact is, you're making stuff up about things that aren't real. We're doing the same, but we're making it up in a logical and consistent manner. Our data can be checked. Yours can't.

In the end, you have faith in 40k. That's all, because you reject the possibility of meaningful comparison. 

Really, if 40k turns you on that much, that's fine with me. I couldn't care less. But you don't get to disparage other people's work or methodology because you don't like their results. 

:scientific cyclops:


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## Daneel2.0

Unknown Primarch said:


> ok yet again i have to say that i bring a decent arguement and some proof by saying that at-ats got destroyed by 2 logs smashing its head in so a sentinal with its heavy laser will be able to have a impact on the at-ats armour. is that a valid answer?


Again, I'm forced to say that: 
1. This has been covered in previous posts wherein I say that titans and even heavy tanks are superior to AT-ATs. 
2. This event NEVER HAPPENED in the books. It was created out of whole cloth for the movie. What did happen was a bunch of logs were toppled onto the side of an AT-ST which knocked it over. Think of an AT-ST as a Sentinel. The same thing would happen to a Sentinel.
3. For the, hopefully last time, USING MOVIE EXAMPLES IS INVALID AS IT IS CONTRARY TO THE BOOKS - THE CANNON FLUFF IS IN THE NOVELS!!!
4. So NO it isn't a valid answer for the 3 reasons states above. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> a at-st doesnt seem to have any sheilds as rebel fighters were able to fly in and around it and defeat it with a cable and a grenade to its inner workings which made a big explosion. so a shot from a volcano cannon will do awesome damage, probably not leaving much left of it actually. is that good enough?


This was a flaw to the design of the machine that had nothing to do with its armor or shielding. Point in fact, it was a mistake with the way the legs were hinged that allowed that to happen. The Empire knew about the flaw from Han Solo, strangely enough, when he was in the academy. They ignored it right up to the aftermath of that battle. They retrofitted all of them immediately after the battle on Hoth. And yes, a volcano cannon will do awesome damage to it. It would almost certainly destroy it in 1 hit. As I previously mentioned it would take about 28+ AT-ATs to take a Warhound Titan.



Unknown Primarch said:


> storm trooper armour isnt anything special and neither is their accuracy so them going up against battle hardened imperial troops lead by a hardcore commissar isnt gonna produce a ass whooping for the imperium. hell if they went up against kasrkin who wear a armour as standard who do you think will come out on top?


Storm Trooper armor is slightly better that Imperium Carapace armor. Slightly worse than Space Marine Powered Armor. The heaviest SW Powered Armor is just about equal to Space Marine Armor. Mandalorian Iron Armor (The heavy stuff used in the clone wars) just slightly worse than Terminator Armor.

Storm Trooper accuracy of fire is consistent with Imperial Guard accuracy. Their elites, like that Mandalorians and the Storm Trooper Commando's, had accuracy comparable to Space Marines.

As for 1 on 1 Karskin in armor vs. Storm Trooper in Armor it's hard to say. It depends on too many factors to calculate readily. Their equipment is pretty comparable, so I'd say it depends on the guy using the equipment.



Unknown Primarch said:


> get the custodes out and put them up against palpatines redguards who will get torn to pieces. why because the custodes are beings with the powers close to a primarch and they were able to fight against daemons who are very powerful being. its probably easier for people to see the outcome of SW when compared to foes its harder to say would lose. whats the math for SW against chaos, necrons, orks, nids and tau. i dont think eldar would stand much of a chance as they are too smaller number to defeat a force the size of imperial troops. they would be excellent against force beings but would lose a war of attrition.


Again, too many unknowns to predict. Just exactly how powerful are the primarchs, how powerful are the custodes that are "Almost" as powerful. As for the rest, I could speculate, but w/o running the numbers that is all it would be, just like your whole argument I'm afraid.



Unknown Primarch said:


> but lastly, did the creator of this thread ever mention anything about the math and actually trying to prove who would win. like someone else said its impossible to do it math wise as noone knows how each universes materials fair in strength terms and how much power peoples sheilds are and so forth so you go on about my answer being wrong and you lot coming with all this waffle but it doesnt have any scientific base so your answers are equally wrong as what you say mine is. im going on what ive seen, read and heard about and making my own opinion based on that, not some flawed data from god knows were.


Actually, if you check, you'll find the I SAID THAT. I was the one that said the materials differences confused things. However, I said it in the context of explaining why my margin of error was so large, not why it was impossible to compare them. 

My "waffle" has a much better mathematic basis than yours does. So Yes, I'm pretty confident in defending my statements with math against your wild statements of pure speculation.


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## Daneel2.0

Red Orc said:


> In the end, you have faith in 40k. That's all, because you reject the possibility of meaningful comparison.
> 
> Really, if 40k turns you on that much, that's fine with me. I couldn't care less. But you don't get to disparage other people's work or methodology because you don't like their results.
> 
> :scientific cyclops:


Dead on! :good: Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Unknown Primarch

i dont actually give a fuck if any of you think my ideas are crap and have no basis as neither do any of yours. your using some math for some game and trying to come up with a answer which is gonna be flawed how ever logical you think it is.
ive given a reason for my thinking and just because your coming with some figures that you think make your answers the only correct ones your critisizing me and others.
the thing is logical thinking dictates how i can deduce which character would come out on top by having a relative understanding visually of strength.
ie, a bodybuilder will have more physical strength than are martial artist but the martial artist would be more aguile and able to do hit and run attacks but up close he will get hit hard by the body builder. 
hence in the minds eye people are able to make a decision based on this same format and it works in fiction too, being film or book. 
so if i think a custodes would defeat a redguard its because the redguard are some skinny guy with a stick and a custodes is a musclebound guy with power but having a armour to make him more aguile giving him the best of both world meaning he will come out on top. 
im not gonna go on and make examples for every little droid up to the biggest spaceship but you get the idea. but your maths cant work as good as you think as your talking about a make believe universe and trying to use real hard fact when there isnt any beside what you can visually determine, hence the way me and others have come to our conclusions. you could have a ewok stated up to fuck but it aint gonna do shit if a dreadnought comes and stomps the thing into the ground. 

one thing though, i have been getting the at-atas and at-st mixed up in my post, sorry for confusing matters.


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## Unknown Primarch

Red Orc said:


> In the end, you have faith in 40k. That's all, because you reject the possibility of meaningful comparison.
> 
> Really, if 40k turns you on that much, that's fine with me. I couldn't care less. But you don't get to disparage other people's work or methodology because you don't like their results.
> 
> :scientific cyclops:


you critisize me and then go and do the same thing you accuse me of doing, thats a logical thing to do isnt it. i bet if we go back to the first post then its the maths geeks that first start having opinions on other peoples thought and when they dont like some peoples answers. 

check yourself, before you wreck yourself!


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## Col. Schafer

Basically this has boiled down to 2 different philosophical approaches.

One is observing and trying to find things similar to each other and compare them intuitively and logically

The other is trying to break down the question and apply a universal principal to it so that they can understand what the difference is by using the universal principal to find what is the difference between 2 things by breaking them down and comparing the universal principal.

This is greatly over simplified (and poorly explained for that matter), and really there are no universal principals in science fiction. But you can come close. At the same time the other is equally valid (considering there is no truly universal principal) 

I realize this is a poorly worded post, and the way I said it they sound the same, but I can’t come up with a better way. Do you get what I mean?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok seeing as how i started this beast of a thread im coming in to regulate. unkown primarch calm down please ok? both of these universes are NOT REAL. yes you are entitled to your opinion as is everybody else who decides to post on this thread. on another note, and im not trying to bash anybody's ideas or opinions right now so bear with me, how many of the SW books have you, or anyone else who has bashed it in this thread, unknown primarch actually read? my guess is very little and i could be wrong mind you. opinions are biased thats the bottom line, an opinion is what YOU think and how YOU interpret things so it is biased. Daneel has provided us with an unbiased way to see who has an edge where, this is the best way to see who would win not by saying "I Think". the reason i have not really posted on who I Think would win is because yes I Think the Imperium would win BUT when Daneel put the numbers down and showed that yes the Imperium's ground forces would kick ass BUT that the Empire had the better Spaceships i realized that my opinion doesnt matter in this argument if i cant back it up with cold hard facts from cannon on both sides which so far no one has done. and this was meant to be star wars empire vs. imperium i never stated the other aliens and races.


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## NoiseMarine

lol not really since they got killed by teddy bears and poorly armed rebels


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

just on a side note a wookie vs an ork would be pretty damn tight


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## Daneel2.0

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> the reason i have not really posted on who I Think would win is because yes I Think the Imperium would win BUT when Daneel put the numbers down and showed that yes the Imperium's ground forces would kick ass BUT that the Empire had the better Spaceships i realized that my opinion doesnt matter in this argument if i cant back it up with cold hard facts from cannon on both sides which so far no one has done. and this was meant to be star wars empire vs. imperium i never stated the other aliens and races.


I wouldn't go that far. For one thing, I didn't do all the math to kill the thread. I meant it to inspire debate about tactics that could be designed to overcome the discrepancy in forces. The Empire would NEED to come up with something to survive on the ground and the Imperium would NEED to come up with something to survive in space (at least that is what the math indicates). 

Even there, it's not certain. For instance one thing I thought of is Assassintorium ships with psykers communicating with other psykers at range telling the Imperium where the Empire's fleets are and what their composition is. If they could force the advantage far enough they may be able to overcome the SW advantage in space by always striking the weak points with overwhelming power, or attacking planets with no space fleet in attendance. This assumes the disruption of the Holo-net but that could be done. Harder to block psi.

Likewise something Ordo came up with was that SW could use specially designed combat droids as a force multiplier to even out battles on the ground against Space Marines. 

These are completely valid tactical solutions designed to overcome superior numbers or superior tech. Remember, the barbarians defeated Rome despite technological advantage and the Americans defeated North Korea despite numeric advantage.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

indeed i have been humbled lol i love the imperium im not going to lie but i realize that they do have some things to make up for in space as the empire does on the ground. there are many different tactical options and strategies that i can put on this thread to show how one can overcome the other but that would take up like 30 more pages and more time on my part that i dont have. also im a chaos diehard so id like to see where the chaos legions, not renegade chapters and little shit like that, would play into this if thats ok with you Daneel. im sure they would play both sides but for stats and the math part i would like to see what the average csm army could do to both sides, mostly SW, please and thank you!


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## Daneel2.0

I don't have a problem, but you might want to start another thread based on the chaos version rather than the imperium


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

yeah i think i will. also how is math not valid? that doesnt make any sense you cn brek anything down into math, granted i dont have the mind o be able to do that but others can. what Daneel has used to provide the stats are cannon for both universes so in effect ou bashing that just makes you sound retarded. and we are not saying your ideas are crap we are just saying that unfortunately you are basing them on almost nothing. yes you may know much of the 40k fluff but i doubt you know much about the SW fluff, so your ideas are obviously going to be one sided, it doesnt mean your stupid your just ignorant to the SW fluff. now i dont want you to take ignorant the wrong way, because the actual meaning of the word is that you dont know something, so im just saying you are ignorant of SW cannon, not a bad thing. your basing your ideas off of what you know, good thing, all we are trying to say is that to make a fully unbiased idea of how this would go down you need more information than you happen to have at your finger tips, also not a slight. go ahead and be biased i dont care its good to see many supporters of the damned corpse god (more to kill for me and my csm) but Daneel and some others are trying to be unbiased and the only way to do that is, so far, by using the stats that Daneel can get his finger tips on and apply math to. and once again math always, in this case, has a correct answer (i wont get into real and unreal numbers and i squared and all that) and by doing this your opinions are dully noted but really have no reason to back them up. what because you have read of a space marine killing hundreds you think he could kill anything in the SW universe? but have you read of mandalorians doing the same thing? no probably not and they have so all im trying to say is make sure you have your facts straight before you spout off at someone who is trying to help everyone else on this thread. ok? and remember the Imperium will fall to the chaos legions anyways. HAIL HORUS AND THE LORD OF OLYMPIA!!!!


----------



## Zorenthewise

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> yeah i think i will. also how is math not valid? that doesnt make any sense you cn brek anything down into math, granted i dont have the mind o be able to do that but others can. what Daneel has used to provide the stats are cannon for both universes so in effect ou bashing that just makes you sound retarded. and we are not saying your ideas are crap we are just saying that unfortunately you are basing them on almost nothing. yes you may know much of the 40k fluff but i doubt you know much about the SW fluff, so your ideas are obviously going to be one sided, it doesnt mean your stupid your just ignorant to the SW fluff. now i dont want you to take ignorant the wrong way, because the actual meaning of the word is that you dont know something, so im just saying you are ignorant of SW cannon, not a bad thing. your basing your ideas off of what you know, good thing, all we are trying to say is that to make a fully unbiased idea of how this would go down you need more information than you happen to have at your finger tips, also not a slight. go ahead and be biased i dont care its good to see many supporters of the damned corpse god (more to kill for me and my csm) but Daneel and some others are trying to be unbiased and the only way to do that is, so far, by using the stats that Daneel can get his finger tips on and apply math to. and once again math always, in this case, has a correct answer (i wont get into real and unreal numbers and i squared and all that) and by doing this your opinions are dully noted but really have no reason to back them up. what because you have read of a space marine killing hundreds you think he could kill anything in the SW universe? but have you read of mandalorians doing the same thing? no probably not and they have so all im trying to say is make sure you have your facts straight before you spout off at someone who is trying to help everyone else on this thread. ok? and remember the Imperium will fall to the chaos legions anyways. HAIL HORUS AND THE LORD OF OLYMPIA!!!!


I do have to admit, I am ignorant when it comes to SW canon. I still don't see the math adding up concerning space battles, as I don't think the individual ships are properly matched. For all we know, 50 turbolasers might add up to a single BFG battery (which I think would make sense. It would be a powerful battery, but still.)

I am not conceding that SW ships would beat 40k ships, as BFG stats are not 1 for 1. An Emperor Class Battleship does not have a few batteries, it has a few batteries at certain strengths, which means that the total firepower of the combined guns on that side equals this number. There is no way someone can say the ship is outgunned, since we do not have a number for how many guns are on the thing!

This all aside, Vilhelm is right. What does it matter? Chaos is going to win anyways!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

Agreed brother, your intelligence serves you well. it is true that we cant get an exact match on how one ship would do against another simply because there has never been anything written by Lucasarts and Gamesworkshop to let us know. we can only, unfortunately, dumb things down abit and attempt to make a good guess. Glory to Chaos brother


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## Zorenthewise

Ah... the glory of Chaos is strong in this one.

I'd like to see a Chaos Ace say that while trying to lock onto Luke, lol.


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## Unknown Primarch

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> Agreed brother, your intelligence serves you well. it is true that we cant get an exact match on how one ship would do against another simply because there has never been anything written by Lucasarts and Gamesworkshop to let us know. we can only, unfortunately, dumb things down abit and attempt to make a good guess. Glory to Chaos brother


exactly the reason i say the math is flawed, and by using a gaming system to get the math has a flaw too as it was written to balance things out so all players of different armies have a chance of beating the others.
it is a good attempt but cant be a concrete way of deciding the outcome and no way of dismissing others ideas either.

on to the mandolorian comment, they were never part of the empire, they were all but destroyed at the time of the empire so cant be included in their army. yeah bobba fett did some work for them but the guy probably would have done for the republic of they payed right.

it seems that we are gonna go page after page in this debate and probably spoil the thread, by all means carry on but we know it wont get us anywhere.


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## Unknown Primarch

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> just on a side note a wookie vs an ork would be pretty damn tight


that would be nuts, khorne would love this bloodshed!


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

Unknown Primarch said:


> exactly the reason i say the math is flawed, and by using a gaming system to get the math has a flaw too as it was written to balance things out so all players of different armies have a chance of beating the others.
> it is a good attempt but cant be a concrete way of deciding the outcome and no way of dismissing others ideas either.
> 
> on to the mandolorian comment, they were never part of the empire, they were all but destroyed at the time of the empire so cant be included in their army. yeah bobba fett did some work for them but the guy probably would have done for the republic of they payed right.
> 
> it seems that we are gonna go page after page in this debate and probably spoil the thread, by all means carry on but we know it wont get us anywhere.


GOD-FUCKING DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Mandalorians cannot be "destroyed" or "wiped out" I have stated and explained this earlier in the thread, and I will re-state now to shut up this threads cling-on/cant take the hint and be logical (and objective)/stir a once-intelligent thread up into a firestorm and break the logical train of thought that had been established, with thoe people mainly supporting either side makeing some concessions so that a comparison could be made fairly... dumbass.

The Mandos (slang) are expert tacticians, they knew they had been beaten at the end of the Mandalorian Wars (thats where their heavy armor came from daneel, hat to seem pidly, but, as I stated before, I am a big fan of the Mandos and, if I lacked the self controll, I would be like Unkown Primarch in my defence of them) which was some 5k years before Ki-Adi-Mundi said the sith had been dead for a Milenia (and he was wrong), and about one week before the great Jedi/Sith war. The Mandalorians then scattered, and reproduced for several thousand years, fighting a mercenaries for the highest bidder. The Galactic Empire employed many Mandalorians, the most notable of them being Boba Fett.

Now, Primarch... if you cant be unbiased and objective like the rest of us, please leave and let us have our audult discussion...
if you dont like the music, change the radio station, you dont like what the math (which the rest of us are accepting) supports, and you cant shut up about it, so leave. I hat rap, and can't sut up about it, so ya know what I do? when I hear math, I *CHANG THE GOD-DAMNED STATION*, and then I am happy. So get used to the math, or _please_, for all of our sanity, refrain from further posts :headbutt::headbutt:


yea, wookie v. ork would be pretty schweet


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## Daneel2.0

Dessel_Ordo said:


> The Mandos (slang) are expert tacticians, they knew they had been beaten at the end of the Mandalorian Wars (thats where their heavy armor came from daneel, hat to seem pidly, but, as I stated before, I am a big fan of the Mandos and, if I lacked the self controll, I would be like Unkown Primarch in my defence of them)
> 
> yea, wookie v. ork would be pretty schweet


Sorry about the misunderstanding. My knowledge of pre-Rebel fluff lacks a ton of the detail that I have concerning Rebel era and later era fluff.

I'm still working on the information concerning Dark Trooper projects. The pages you sent are great, but they have no numbers concerning their strengths. Excellent background though. I am currently in negotiations with a friend of mine for the source book that has them listed though, so there is still hope. 

As for wookie vs. ork, I'm now working on it, by popular demand. :biggrin:


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## Zorenthewise

You're working on it, eh? Can you also get us Emperor vs Emperor?


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## Daneel2.0

No, the 40K Emperor isn't stated. In addition he is STUCK IN THE GOLDEN THRONE AND UNABLE TO ENTER CONFLICT.


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## Dessel_Ordo

umm, sorry about losing it in my last post... :blush:

I wuz angry, and didnt notice the 7 or 8 misspellings and freudian slips... sorry.

anyhow, I also found an article on Wookieepedia(sp?) that lists the organization of the Imperial (SW) army... however I dont have anything similair for the IG. The list gives troop numbers/sizes from squad (smallest) all the way up to the largest group. Could anyone lay down the #'s for IG for me, so that I can do that bit of crunching?


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## Zorenthewise

Obviously, I meant pre-heresy.


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## Unknown Primarch

Dessel_Ordo said:


> GOD-FUCKING DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> the Mandalorians cannot be "destroyed" or "wiped out" I have stated and explained this earlier in the thread, and I will re-state now to shut up this threads cling-on/cant take the hint and be logical (and objective)/stir a once-intelligent thread up into a firestorm and break the logical train of thought that had been established, with thoe people mainly supporting either side makeing some concessions so that a comparison could be made fairly... dumbass.
> 
> The Mandos (slang) are expert tacticians, they knew they had been beaten at the end of the Mandalorian Wars (thats where their heavy armor came from daneel, hat to seem pidly, but, as I stated before, I am a big fan of the Mandos and, if I lacked the self controll, I would be like Unkown Primarch in my defence of them) which was some 5k years before Ki-Adi-Mundi said the sith had been dead for a Milenia (and he was wrong), and about one week before the great Jedi/Sith war. The Mandalorians then scattered, and reproduced for several thousand years, fighting a mercenaries for the highest bidder. The Galactic Empire employed many Mandalorians, the most notable of them being Boba Fett.
> 
> Now, Primarch... if you cant be unbiased and objective like the rest of us, please leave and let us have our audult discussion...
> if you dont like the music, change the radio station, you dont like what the math (which the rest of us are accepting) supports, and you cant shut up about it, so leave. I hat rap, and can't sut up about it, so ya know what I do? when I hear math, I *CHANG THE GOD-DAMNED STATION*, and then I am happy. So get used to the math, or _please_, for all of our sanity, refrain from further posts :headbutt::headbutt:
> 
> 
> yea, wookie v. ork would be pretty schweet


right get it straight, i never said mandolorians were wiped out, i said they were nearly wiped out. it was something to do with wars with a good faction against the mercs of there world and they all but wiped each other out. then years after return of the jedi, bobba fett sort of brought the mandolorians back up to scratch. 

and why am i gonna leave this discussion just because you say so. your opinions arent the only right ones on here, you think that because you have found some way that you THINK you can get the right answer it is the only one avaliable. in what way did the thread starter ask of a way to prove it, he just asked what people thought. then you guys come and highjack it and try and make it a one answer thread. me and others have gave valid reasons to our answer but because you dont like the method you deride it. 
you just carry on with your math and if someone gives a answer by a different method just keep your negative opinions to yourself and let them have their say. theres actually no right or wrong answer to this thread as its a makebelieve story and its all about the individuals opinion.


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## vorbis

whats to stop the mandos working for imperium they may find more in common both being psychos and all, plus i agree with whats being said that math hammer can only be taken so far tactics may be the exception that cant reduced down to maths and the great big unkown quantity, plus are we assuming for the purposes of this thread that imperium is only fighting SW or still got all other things going on and same for SW


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## Autarch of Bahls

wow... that's why i don't ever piss off dessel... now, saying SPACE MARINES RULE!!!!!!! OMG L33T !!!! isn't anywhere near the amount of mental power that it takes to pee your pants, so primarch, shoosh. if your gonna be saying space marines beat mandos, than give reasons like, 

Power armour is clearly better when in the hands of a space marine than a mando, and they are much larger and stronger an dcan take more bullets and can crush a mandos head like a pop can in a vise and don't get the message that they might lose and wouldn't even care if they did.

Mandos have better skills and are more well equipped than SM's and have the agility to dodge attacks and actually have a cool looking fight.

think about it, when two mando's fight, it's epic. if two space marines ever fought, it would consist of the stronger one punching the other's head off.

so primarch, play nice or go lay down.


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## Autarch of Bahls

and, primarch. the math isn't flawed.

Super star destroyer- over 1000 weapons systems and shields that can dissapate the energy of a STAR!!! it can fly through a sun and has before!!!!!

Battle Barge-For point defense, twelve pulse lasers are mounted for close-in work, while for the primary work, twelve launchers for Medium Range Missiles are carried. ithas shields comparable to a Naboo cruiser.


the Super Star Destroyer Executor once had two Imperial II star destroyers exit hyperspace DIRECTLY INTO IT and they were destroyed by its shields. the entire ship was untouched and flawless.

i'd say that just about spells it out in terms of who would win that little battle...


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## Autarch of Bahls

plus if you killed the emperor and the astronomicon went down, then no one in the imperium would be venturing out into space.


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## Unknown Primarch

Autarch of Bahls said:


> wow... that's why i don't ever piss off dessel... now, saying SPACE MARINES RULE!!!!!!! OMG L33T !!!! isn't anywhere near the amount of mental power that it takes to pee your pants, so primarch, shoosh. if your gonna be saying space marines beat mandos, than give reasons like,
> 
> Power armour is clearly better when in the hands of a space marine than a mando, and they are much larger and stronger an dcan take more bullets and can crush a mandos head like a pop can in a vise and don't get the message that they might lose and wouldn't even care if they did.
> 
> Mandos have better skills and are more well equipped than SM's and have the agility to dodge attacks and actually have a cool looking fight.
> 
> think about it, when two mando's fight, it's epic. if two space marines ever fought, it would consist of the stronger one punching the other's head off.
> 
> so primarch, play nice or go lay down.



obviously you never read my post or you would know i said that the mandolorians arent in the empires army. they were a bunch of mercs who did work for them. they sort of nearly destroyed themselves because one faction wanted to get back to the honourable people they once were and the other half wanted to continue being mercs. i think it was the guy who was jango fetts father was the good guy but he lost then in the future bobba fett sort of returned their homeworld to glory.
so it was nothing to do with me saying SPACE MARINES RULES! but i have gave my reasons for who i would think would win in various fights and have even had to point out the method i used so what are you talking about saying i need to give reasons for my thinking.

and why are you making a obvious comment about a super star destroyer against a battle barge. have you seen the size of one of those things, its about 20 times the size of a standard star destroyer and i dont think the imperium has anything to match it, hell i dont think theres much in the whole of 40k to match it either.

and who says that the destruction of the astronomican will spell the end of warp travel. they didnt have it when mankind first stepped out into the void and mankind was using warp travel long before the emperor was in power.
plus it doesnt stop any other race from using the warp so why would it stop mankind. yes it would be more dangerous and it would take abit longer but its still possible.
then you have the question of the empror coming back once he has actually died and so a new astronomican could be built. hell he might be that powerful that he might not need to be anchored to a chair and the imperium would get back to conquering the galaxy and have the emperor free to roam and defeat all his enemies personally.

im not bothered about pissing people off, i dont go out to do it but i will have my opinion and if people dont like it then tough. they have a right to theirs but im not gonna go on like a gimp and lick peoples arse because they think their ideas are the only right ones and everyone has to agree or else.


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## Zorenthewise

You know who could best settle this debate? Dan Abnett. As far as I know, he is the only author to write for both storylines. He no doubt has matched them a few times in his own head!


----------



## Abbo

Jedi vs librarians 
I don't know if the Jedi compared to librarians, are that much of a military asset especially in command positions, they don't seem to grasp the notion that for making a omelet you got to break some eggs.

I would not dismiss the IG as mere foot soldiers with bad guns, they are expected too and some probably will hold unit cohesion until the last man when the world they are defending/attacking is getting swarmed by Tyranids, Chaos or Orks.
Now a standard unit with a morale and skills to fight enemies like that would be more then a match for the elite stormtroopers that cant handle some Ewoks.


Stormtroopers replaced by competent troops: 
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/kung-fu-grip/162-Star-Wars-A-New-Halo


First post!


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

Unknown Primarch said:


> obviously you never read my post or you would know i said that the mandolorians arent in the empires army. they were a bunch of mercs who did work for them. they sort of nearly destroyed themselves because one faction wanted to get back to the honourable people they once were and the other half wanted to continue being mercs. i think it was the guy who was jango fetts father was the good guy but he lost then in the future bobba fett sort of returned their homeworld to glory.
> so it was nothing to do with me saying SPACE MARINES RULES! but i have gave my reasons for who i would think would win in various fights and have even had to point out the method i used so what are you talking about saying i need to give reasons for my thinking.
> 
> and why are you making a obvious comment about a super star destroyer against a battle barge. have you seen the size of one of those things, its about 20 times the size of a standard star destroyer and i dont think the imperium has anything to match it, hell i dont think theres much in the whole of 40k to match it either.
> 
> and who says that the destruction of the astronomican will spell the end of warp travel. they didnt have it when mankind first stepped out into the void and mankind was using warp travel long before the emperor was in power.
> plus it doesnt stop any other race from using the warp so why would it stop mankind. yes it would be more dangerous and it would take abit longer but its still possible.
> then you have the question of the empror coming back once he has actually died and so a new astronomican could be built. hell he might be that powerful that he might not need to be anchored to a chair and the imperium would get back to conquering the galaxy and have the emperor free to roam and defeat all his enemies personally.
> 
> im not bothered about pissing people off, i dont go out to do it but i will have my opinion and if people dont like it then tough. they have a right to theirs but im not gonna go on like a gimp and lick peoples arse because they think their ideas are the only right ones and everyone has to agree or else.


... I do beleive Autarch was referring to your previous posts, where, you pretty much were saying, well, what autarch said you were saying (for all intents and purposes)

I do admit, you have calmed down, a little, but, you still are pretty much going off with RGS (rabid gamer syndrome), now, simmer, its not like the RGS we would see if Starcraft II or Fallout III turn out to be complete crap, lts-make-a-quick-buck type deals; or if GW decides to make the next SM codex 250% more smrufier (or more Ultrafaggier, or more Horse-shoeir), or even worse, if one of the next new codexes turns out to be a "your army no longer exists (anti-codex)". But please, simmer down a tiny bit more.

thank you for showing you can go to wookiepedia to learn somthing to sound intelligent (because, as I beleive, you said earlier that you know very little about SW past the movies).

Now, you seem to be drifting more to the tactics the Imperium could use to negate the Empires advantages... now if you would actually MOVE in that direction, and decide to silently tolerate our use of the math-hammer that would be much appreciated, and Autarch and I would stop telling you to go away.:biggrin::mrgreen:


----------



## General Panic

Want to kill a super-star destroyer? Board it with an entire legion's complement of terminators and assault troops under strict orders to spare no-one..
40K has the advantage, the warp would soon finish off unprepared Jedi, Empire super weapons all proved vulnerable to pussy rebels so they'd be unlikely to survive astartes and between the cultists, mutants, heretics, guardsmen and PDF's I reckon the numbers game would be a 40K win too... Then there's all the xeno tomfoolery, the 'crons and the nids....


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## Unknown Primarch

Dessel_Ordo said:


> ... I do beleive Autarch was referring to your previous posts, where, you pretty much were saying, well, what autarch said you were saying (for all intents and purposes)
> 
> I do admit, you have calmed down, a little, but, you still are pretty much going off with RGS (rabid gamer syndrome), now, simmer, its not like the RGS we would see if Starcraft II or Fallout III turn out to be complete crap, lts-make-a-quick-buck type deals; or if GW decides to make the next SM codex 250% more smrufier (or more Ultrafaggier, or more Horse-shoeir), or even worse, if one of the next new codexes turns out to be a "your army no longer exists (anti-codex)". But please, simmer down a tiny bit more.
> 
> thank you for showing you can go to wookiepedia to learn somthing to sound intelligent (because, as I beleive, you said earlier that you know very little about SW past the movies).
> 
> Now, you seem to be drifting more to the tactics the Imperium could use to negate the Empires advantages... now if you would actually MOVE in that direction, and decide to silently tolerate our use of the math-hammer that would be much appreciated, and Autarch and I would stop telling you to go away.:biggrin::mrgreen:



well im not really simmering its just continualy arguing about something makebelieve gets abit stupid with no end in sight. im not sure were i read about the mandolorians but it was off the net and my basic explanation about them is most of what i know. :fuck:

im not sure what your going on about with this RGS but i gather its something that tabletop people do. i dont play tabletop but im just into the fluff of 40k. ive read a few starwars books but on a whole i think their shit. all this vong bullshit sort of ruined the starwars stories for me as it was always about dark/light side of force not some force blank aliens wiping out lots of galaxy far far away. :ireful2:

anyway if i gave a answer to who would win i did give a good answer to how i made the desicion not by some math but by a obvious idea of a hot knife will go straight through butter sort of thing. if you dont like it tough but i will still stand up for my idea and thats that really. alot of people will get intimidated by all the math heads deriding other peoples idea when the thread never was about just the math but what the individual thinks. so the person who answers cant be wrong as its what they believe and thats always the correct answer. people have different opinions on a makebelieve story and there can be no wrong answer and no one can prove they are 100% correct either.

anyway, i can give you my opinion on tactics and tolerate your math but im not bothered if anyone gives me stick so carry on if you want. :biggrin:


----------



## Unknown Primarch

General Panic said:


> Want to kill a super-star destroyer? Board it with an entire legion's complement of terminators and assault troops under strict orders to spare no-one..
> 40K has the advantage, the warp would soon finish off unprepared Jedi, Empire super weapons all proved vulnerable to pussy rebels so they'd be unlikely to survive astartes and between the cultists, mutants, heretics, guardsmen and PDF's I reckon the numbers game would be a 40K win too... Then there's all the xeno tomfoolery, the 'crons and the nids....



i agree, the math heads will tell you sheilds are too strong but if there was a way through them then a company of terminators would take it with ease. it may take a while as its a big fuck-off ship but it would be done. its just getting in thats the hard part. :scare:


----------



## Lord Reevan

The thing with force users and psykers is that psykers can be damaged by the warp while the jedi use mediclorians to power them so they would be more stable... also a depleted deuterium core shell will not be hit back by a lightsaber, it would probably just explode on impact adnd kill the jedi anyway.... Going with empire vs. guard though would be a bit more equal.... I have AT-ATs! I have titans!! I have star destroyers!! I have big fuck off planetary defence silos!!A wookkie fighting an ogryn would probably be better though...


----------



## TAUfanatic

I've had this discussion with one of my friends before.....
(he being the star wars fanatic and me the 40k nerd)


......we still argue about it it to this day


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm

primarch is right dessel everyone is entitled to their own opinion. yes the math hammer can give is a good idea of how thing would work out between the two empires but without exact numbers which we might never really have it will be flawed and there will be holes. the fact that it can come close to figuring things out does not mean it is the creed for this thread and math cannot factor in the most important factor at all, the human mind. we can come up with all these generalized numbers like we have but like i said that is GENERALIZED and supposing that each person thinks or acts roughly the same way. trust me the war would last for a very long time and be very devastating for both sides but in the end what would win the war is who steps up to lead and inspire on each battlefield, who will go all the way and give the ultimate sacrifice, these are things you can never factor in with math its simply impossible. quite truthfully both empires have different views on war. the empire could care less how many troops they loose they just keep pumping them out but they also dont live in a war torn galaxy. yes they have had some very devastating wars over the years but the imperium has been in constant neverending wars for ten thousand years. that does something to people and molds them, it helps weed out the weak and cowards really quick and it makes the entire imperium geared for war constantly. this doesnt mean that stormtroopers arent battlehardened fighters but when was the last time since the clone wars that they had as much emotion as the 40k characters show? ive have read my fair share of both SW and 40k fluff and books and i tell you that the imperium would win through sacrifice and sheer tenacity, they simply dont give up and are too hardened as a race and civilization to give up. the empire, although can be geared for war quickly, is not. they have fought many tiny wars compared to abbadon's black crusades, armageddon and many others. like i said before it would be the human element that would win the war and that is something you can never factor in with math. Oh and p.s. everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you like it or not dessel even if you or everybody else thinks that their reason is stupid they are still entitled to that opinion math is not god and is not law humans have a tendency to break the rules and that's exactly what math is, rules and laws.


----------



## Daneel2.0

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> primarch is right dessel everyone is entitled to their own opinion. yes the math hammer can give is a good idea of how thing would work out between the two empires but without exact numbers which we might never really have it will be flawed and there will be holes. the fact that it can come close to figuring things out does not mean it is the creed for this thread and math cannot factor in the most important factor at all, the human mind. we can come up with all these generalized numbers like we have but like i said that is GENERALIZED and supposing that each person thinks or acts roughly the same way.


First, the math is not generalized, it is normalized. Big difference. Beyond that, you're essentially on the right track. All the math does is give us a starting point to compare the 2 different universes. And that is all anyone has ever used it for. The real comparison work is done using the numbers to support the position that you take. 



BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> trust me the war would last for a very long time and be very devastating for both sides but in the end what would win the war is who steps up to lead and inspire on each battlefield, who will go all the way and give the ultimate sacrifice, these are things you can never factor in with math its simply impossible.


Trust me is just another way of saying "In my opinion". It has no more force than that. That said, I happen to agree, no matter how you slice it killing off that many people would take time. But even that time is relative. 



BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> quite truthfully both empires have different views on war. the empire could care less how many troops they loose they just keep pumping them out but they also dont live in a war torn galaxy. yes they have had some very devastating wars over the years but the imperium has been in constant neverending wars for ten thousand years. that does something to people and molds them, it helps weed out the weak and cowards really quick and it makes the entire imperium geared for war constantly.


Ah no. Your basic problem with that kind of statement is that the VAST majority of the Imperium is completely unaware there is a war, much less that war has been waged for 10 thousand years. They are unaware of Xenos for the most part, they are unaware of Chaos for the most part and they are kept that way on purpose by the Inquisition. The only real part of the entire empire that is aware of the wars at large are the portions fighting it. Even then entire IG battalions have been purged so that they could hide the secret of aliens or Chaos.



BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> this doesnt mean that stormtroopers arent battlehardened fighters but when was the last time since the clone wars that they had as much emotion as the 40k characters show? ive have read my fair share of both SW and 40k fluff and books and i tell you that the imperium would win through sacrifice and sheer tenacity, they simply dont give up and are too hardened as a race and civilization to give up. the empire, although can be geared for war quickly, is not. they have fought many tiny wars compared to abbadon's black crusades, armageddon and many others. like i said before it would be the human element that would win the war and that is something you can never factor in with math.


Again, the Empire isn't the bunch of weaklings you think they are. They have faced wars that DWARF any in 40K. The scales are just different. 

Do I think that SW would win - maybe. I don't really know. You say the human element is the deciding factor, and that it can't be solved by math. I say you're correct. The human factor is the deciding factor - always is. Problem being it's not predictable either. Even for people that are DAMN good at it. You are trying to predict something that is essentially not possible to predict. You "feel" that the people in 40K are harder. Maybe, I don't know. It could just as easily be the other way.



BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> Oh and p.s. everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you like it or not dessel even if you or everybody else thinks that their reason is stupid they are still entitled to that opinion math is not god and is not law humans have a tendency to break the rules and that's exactly what math is, rules and laws.


Sure - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That doesn't make everyone's opinions equally valid, equally thought out, or equally intelligent.

Dessel was talking about the abusive tone and childish tantrum that some of the other posters decided to run on. He at no time said that they weren't entitled to their opinions, merely that their tantrum was childish and if they persisted in being childish he would prefer they did it somewhere else.

A point I myself approve of.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

you like picking people apart dont you? jk lol i get it, the childish thing is getting very annoying though im just trying to be the mediator and calm the two sides down you know? no reason we cant be adults about it. i love both sides and although i have been a SW fan longer 40k holds a special place in my heart, unfortunately for most that place is for the chaos legions. lol


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## Daneel2.0

I'm not really picking people apart, but responding to each argument separately. I find it helps me organize my posts when I break large paragraphs up into individual thoughts.

I understand the position that you are taking however, and appreciate its difficulty. Just remember that being a mediator isn't really about being fair, but making sure that all sides are being courteous, or at the very least polite.


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## Abbo

Anyone want to guess on the outcome of a emperor vs emperor duel?


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## Daneel2.0

As the Emperor of the Imperium is confined to the Golden Throne I don't think he can put up much of a fight vs anyone at the moment.


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## Unknown Primarch

yeah i guess that the emperor of man would whoop palpatines ass. the guy was a scrawny little wreck, he didnt actually do much damage to master yoda in thier dual and the emperor of man could squash yoda under his power armoured boot. 
but we dont really know what powers EoM had beside the psychic lance but im sure that would do the job on palpatine even if he was jumping around with his lightsaber like in revenge of the sith. 
Palpatine does have force lightening and those sort of things but EoM kinda stood up to horus who was chaos powered and had a similar lightening trick so there is a good chance he could take it until he grabbed palpatine around the neck with that lightening claw of his and ripped his head off.
plus EoMs sword seems to have some power source that possibly has a chance against a lightsaber so maybe they could be honourable and just have a old fashioned swordfight (or maybe not)


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## Dessel_Ordo

OK, now that you guys understood where I was coming from/what I meant (thank you for that) I too will simmer.

EoM v.s. Palpatine, I give to EoM, Darth Bane on the other hand... now that shit would be epic (I have held for a long time that true Sith Lords left the galaxy since Plageus was killed by Plapatine, and I have yet to see a "sith lord" purported to fit the bill past that point)

On Mandalorians, I highly doubt that they would go over to the Imperium, as *1*) at the approximate point in SW history where the Empire is peaked, they are Boba's (Mandalore at the time, a useless Chakar of a Mandalore, but Mandalore nonetheless) sole employer for all intents and purposes. That said, Mandalorians are feircely loyal, and stubborn as all hell, they fought the Vong, on their homeworld (ceding a decent portion of ground, so that they could use tactics to negate the strength of numbers the Vong had on them), for the better part of the War (3 years or so, IIRC). Now, as I said before, it took a 40k style war to get Boba to be a decent Mandalore (militarilly, beleive it or not, he is one hell of a tactician); and, however shitty the storyline direction/idea/as a whole for the vong war was, it was on the same scale as 40k. That said, within a year or so of the Empire and Imperium kicking off their war (and it WOULD be hellacios), Boba's leadership streak would kick in, he would show up as Mandolore (who, is historically beleived without question by the Mandalorians (within reason (and seeing as the Imperium would be waging a war of religious purginc/purification (the same as the Vong were) ALL members of the SW galaxy would be bonned up the ass should the Imperium win) and he would do the following several actions: 1) call in al the scattered Mandos. *2*) (allow a few months for all of them to show up on Mandalore (planet, not Bobas arse)) tell all of them who WERE working for the Imperium to stop doing so, and form an army of Mandalorians of some sort (in the Vong war, he tooled around with the 500 best Mandos, and had all the rest just zip around saving the Galactic alliances ass). *3*) pledge the support of said army to the service of the Empire. *4*) command his army agianst the imperium.

also, I do beleive that the reason we have had so many childish spats on this thread, is because, if you really look at the OP, it invites a flame war, in fact, I am amazed we have had so few.

SO, in the interest of keeping things moving in a forward direction, here is what we have generally agreed on so far:
Stormtrooper (Imperial)=Imperial Guardsman
Space Marines>Most Star Wars infantry (about equal with Mandalorians, Dark Troopers (phase II and III) and YVH war droids)
GA space vessels > Imperium space vessels (?)
Imperium Tanks > Star Wars tanks
Titans > all

I really hope that I didnt come across as too much of an ass, its just that I think the idea behind this thread is really cool, and I was/am sick and fucking tired of flame wars


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## shas'o7

OK, are people seriously considering that Star Wars would win?

Let's consider the battle on Geonosis, in the stadium. How many Jedi did they have, about 200-250? And they were SLAUGHTERED by the little battle droids, just by massed blaster fire. And they could even deflect that. 

A jedi knight, full of confidence, leads his squad of troopers through a battlefield, at a line of space marines. As they reach ranges, shots break out, and clones fall. The clones return fire, downing a few marines. The Jedi dodges a blaster shell, ducks, jumps up, and is hit in the face by a plasma blast. Then an Assault Marine squad roars in from above, slaughtering clones, as they don't carry close combat weapons. 

Space Battles would go to the Empire, but 1 ship gets through, plants a teleport homer, and you have terminators charging ST. 

It would be brutal, but it would go to the Imperium.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Shas, first off, space marines arent the traditional or standard "line" troops, they attack, they assault, and they seize, they very seldomly defend, and when they do, they defend by counter attacking as much as possible.

that said, it would be a squad of clones (elites, Jedi dont go around with the regular troopers, they always worked with a squad of commandos (about one squad of 4 of these guys is good for a marine or two in the open feild, probably less if marines ambush them (by less I mean none) and a few more if they ambush the marines (by that I mean 3 or 4)) vs. guardsman...

besides, we have mostly left clone wars behind, and are assuming this is a SW galaxy where the movies didnt happen (i.e. the main characters dont get lucky umpteen times, but get crushed, as all the rest of the fluff says they should have/would have been). So most force users are of the sith, or at least fallen jedi persuasion (granted, they only have scraps of the dark sides true power, Vader and Palpatine hold most of it).

you are right about it being brutal, and most of us are currently going with "too close to call" with what we have agreed on, and are debating over the finer points, to get an acceptable outcome... then probably more fluff like that written in the middle of the thread will be pumped out, once we have reached an acceptable outcome through debate.

once again you are correct about the ship battles too (in most of our books, lol)

am I right other threadies?


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## bobss

this is reminding me of the time someone said how a combat marine with a knife could take over the LOTR universe in a weekend


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## Lord Reevan

Clones are stormtropers though so really apart from leaders the army would be overall similar... And Going by the story for force unleashed is anything to go by there could be sith leading units of stormtroopers. All apprentices to the other darths around the place.... IF there was any other darths bar sidius and vader....

And dessel's right the mandalorians are stubborn and very loyal when it comes to war. When they attacked the republic they kept fighting unitl the clans were totally disbanded because they love battle. They will fight a superior opponent to the very end so others can learn. If they have allied themselves with the republic, as they would have after gaining so much respect from them from the mando war, they will stick with them against the imperium.... 
Also for some reason I think of blasters in the SW universe as more like tau rifles so they could take down a ggod few more marines than that way....


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## NoiseMarine

the sith belief system goes with there should be only 2 sith an apprentice and a master nothing more last time the sith created an empire with an army of sith Darth Bane who palpatine mentions in episode 3 destroyed all of them and took an apprentice the sith apprentice is supposed to learn all he can from his/her master and then kill them or die trying. Palpatine believed in this way of the sith so he didnt recruit anymore. thats the only reason he wanted luke to kill vader so he could take luke as an apprentice and maintain the way of the dark side...

so there wouldnt be sith leading squads of stormtroopers unless vader did it himself, and he cant be everywhere at once.


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## Lord Reevan

Good point.... I'm going back to KOTOR times which is 4000 years before the movies so that's where that idea comes from.... In force unleashed though, the new game, there are several lightsaber wielding dark side guys.... MAybe not sith but lightsaber trained guys....


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## NoiseMarine

why would they be with the empire????? i dont think that palpatine would allow them to join his army hed probably kill them if they tried


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## Lord Reevan

NoiseMarine said:


> why would they be with the empire????? i dont think that palpatine would allow them to join his army hed probably kill them if they tried


Sorry not jedi wielding guys ( I've got a jedi and I'm not afraid to use it!!) ligtsaber wielding guys I meant.... They're some on palpatine's side in the new game....


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## Dessel_Ordo

Palpatine did keep some dark side force users around, mostly in one cultish group, including his head of intelligence, 2 Grand Admirals, at least 10 "Hands" (including Mara Jade, Lukes future wife), most, if not all of the the Redguards were force sensitive, both Palpatine and Vader had other side "apprentices" (IIRC, in Force Unleashed, you are, in fact, Vaders "secret Aprentice"). Also, there were many other sith cults, Jedi on the run losing it, and Sith Lords Ghosts possesing the body of powerful force users they find (untrained, similair to daemonic possesion of untrained psykers), and trying to rebppt the sith empire from when they were alive.

also, when Bane set out the Rule Of Two (opperating creedo, sith code is the start of my sig.) he did mention that other, useful force users could be corrupted, and fed the table scraps of the dark side. The most powerful of these were on par with Jedi Knights, the weakest were laughable.

Also, Blackhole (the force sensitive head of security I mentioned) was a master at Sith Alchemy (ancient sith technique used to make monsters (Terenterek, mech-zombies, monsters, mutants of great power), these were commonly force sensitive to some degree.

I have a feeling that a war against the Imperium could lead Palpatine to find a lot more "scraps" of the dark sides power, so sith(ish) squad leaders is a possibility.

still, these squad leaders would prob. only ammount to one force-trick ponies (with a lightsaber) who are faster, and stronger than an average human, but still only barely approaching kinda close to SPace Marines S and T. (Think Tsons aspiring sorcerer but more variety, and weaker in physical traits (barring speed)

also, if ne1 could feed me the general (fluff) organization of the IG, numbers and HW/tank distribution from squad to biggest unit they have (barring the whole army) I found such an article on wookepedia for the Empire, but since its a mess, and I dont want to make this post even longer, I will do the comparison work off the thread, and report the results.


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## Autarch of Bahls

go go dessel!!!


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## cco12

ok ill put it this way Inquisitorial stormtroopers vs.Imperial stormtropers 

yeah imperium wins


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## Dessel_Ordo

cco12 said:


> ok ill put it this way Inquisitorial stormtroopers vs.Imperial stormtropers
> 
> yeah imperium wins


and your logic supporting this?
we do acceprt non-scientific oppinions, if good logic is behind them, so...



explain yourself.


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## General Panic

IG numbers in the billions, millions of tanks, the ability to call up from the even larger PDF reserves plus conscription... IG win the numbers game, hands down, just cadia can field tens of millions of guardsmen, and that's a single planet. Then you have the Skitarii, Astartes, Stormtroopers, Naval Armsmen, Sisters of Battle, Frateris militia and the Arbites all of whom will fight for the Emperor... And that's just the Imperium...


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## Dessel_Ordo

said it once, and I'll say it again, the Star Wars Galaxy took 365 TRILLION deaths on the chin and barely noticed it...
so they could match numbers w/in a few years if they so chose


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## General Panic

Uk Billions (a million millions) not american ones (a thousand millions), so the same as "trillion" in US... 

Why the fug we don't have a standardised system I don't know.....


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## Wilder

The Imperium would win hands down, especially if it’s pre-heresy. All twenty legions of the adeptus with their respective primarchs and possibly the Emperor himself The Empire (or republic) wouldn’t stand a chance. They would cleanse anything that wasn’t human and try to turn the humans to realize the Imperial truths over the Empires. Imperial guard at least can hit the broad side of a barn.


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## Wilder

And who knows how much of the Human population would side with the Emperor, thus providing the Imperium forces with critical information about planetary defenses and fleet movement. (turncoats could be everywhere inthe Empire)


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## bobss

star wars weapons seem alot more advanced, like droids in the phantom menace, is it me or do they resemble tau massively?


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## Caponey

Number wise, the imperium is still significantly stronger. If you read the fluff in the fluff sections of the rulebook they show a picture of a planet. It has planetary data all over that page and it includes a number of worlds that fall into that worlds classifcation. The number of worlds in the star wars univers fit onto a two page map that has a name for every world.

http://www.moviecritic.com.au/images/star-wars-galaxy-map1.jpg

The imperium has thousands if not millions of worlds. Therefore exponentially more people. Also, how many hive worlds have been mentioned in all of 40k fluff.... those versus Coruscant, meh, no biggie.


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## Dessel_Ordo

as for accuracy, it has already been addresed that the movies were crap for representing what stormtroopers skills are. (If it was accurate, it would be a short, depressing movie (I mean, really, A New Hope should have ended right when C-3PO and R2-D2 walked through the MIDDLE of a firefight))

yes, Empire would have turncoats, but not many, as the Emporer uses a sith mind influencing power to maintain loyalty.

We aren't talking pre-heresy or Rpublic... so please, refrain from using them in your posts

Caponey, that map is actually a terrible representation of the SW galaxy, it misses at least 20 cannon systems (and entire cannon clusters), has several moons hundreds, if not thousands of light-years away from their parents, and systems equally scattered. valiant attempt tho:good:


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## vorbis

i cant believe no one as brought up that new hope moment before its the ultimate in thread ending moments


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## scolatae

lets face it star wars verses imperium is very much like imperium verses tau. Tau are few in number but vastly better technology wise.


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## Red Orc

Why do people think that the Imperium is much bigger than the Empire? I don't get where this idea comes from.

:inquisitive cyclops:


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## Lord Reevan

It does state that the imperial guard numbers billions of soldiers alone and has several hundred systems, but so does the empire... There are a lot of references to several systems around the place in Star wars fluff.....


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## Zorenthewise

I think the amount of hive cities in the 40k universe has to mean something for their numbers. Single planets give the Imperium billions of men and women for the Imperial guard. Also, there are guardsmen that are well over a hundred years old and still fighting, so there is multiple generations fighting alongside each other.


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## FleshHound6

Oh, my, god!
i just finished reading all 35 pages of this thread
the one thing that seems to be agreed upon for a SW vs W40k is that a fight between a wookie and an ork would be awsome


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## ckcrawford

lightsabers...... they should be give to the space marines. chop chop


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## Treewizard648

Simply put, in Star Wars it takes a death star to blow up a planet, however in 40k all it takes is an Imperial cruiser to wipe out an entire planet (exterminatus). 

Lets count; 

Death Stars: 2 built/destroyed


Imperial Cruisers: unknown amount built/destroyed 


Ask yourself again with these numbers, who would win?


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## chromedog

Druchii said:


> I'm buying stormtrooper armour


I have a set. I built it with the help of several FX people friends. It is as accurate as reference pics and drawings from Lucasfilm allow (said friends go to the Ranch at least once a year). The helmet, however, was made by one of them (he has a vacformer), but all of the interior electronics were installed by me (including the cooling vest and heat exchange unit - built around a peltier diode based circuit).

I'm in the 501st. We do charity work (groups will visit the childrens' hospitals to cheer up the sick kids. Glad to have a helmet on sometimes, so they can't see my eyes tear up.). All the other stormtrooper armour wearing SW geeks are just sad pretenders.  About on par with lycra wearing ST fans. Or even ManFay (shudder!!!). Glorified cosplayers, really.

Somebody quoted the Battle barge being able to transport 3 CHAPTERS, and then went on to say that a CHAPTER was 10 squads of 10 men. No, that's a company. A BB can transport 3 companies and support assets. If a BB could transport 3 chapters, then the vaunted astartees would be carpoolin'. Also, if a chapter was ONLY 100 marines, then somebody seriously misread the codex:Astartes.

Me, I like both SW and 40k. My SM (company) are painted up like my 501st brethren. Fluffwise, they are part of the 13th founding, using Imperial fists geneseed, and cloned from specific donor stock (the 13th founding had several 'wrong' production methods, cloning being one of them). This explains the identical heads on them (those without helmets). 

Who would win?
Lucas.
He will buy out GW, and then licence Hasbro to produce pre-painted 40k models. :biggrin:
Edit: Left off the cheesy grin icon to indicate the SARCASM.


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## Treewizard648

chromedog said:


> .........Who would win?
> Lucas.
> He will buy out GW, and then licence Hasbro to produce pre-painted 40k models.


 GWS would never whore themselves to that two-bit writer now, or in 39,000 years! He may have the money but its never going to happen. Hell, a cataclysmic war between a pre-heresy Imperium and the Old Republic is more likely to happen!

Besides, hasbro sucks and so does wizards of the coast, everything that comes out of those two is useless CRAP. (except magic:the gathering and JUST the D&D rulebooks.) Pre-painted miniatures especially D&D mini's are pure garbage. When I play D&D I use GWS models.


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## Phrazer

OMG this is like the best thread ever!! Star wars and 40k, my 2 favourite sci-fi genres going face to face... i HAVE to get involved!!

Rite to complicate matters first off there have been many "ruling factions" in the Star Wars universe over the past few years: Republic, Empire, New Republic, Galactic Alliance all the way up to the new Sith Empire. I think the best example to use to compare the 2 is the Galactic Alliance at the end of the Yuhzen Vong War as the Galazy is pretty much the most united its ever been, so with that in mind...

Rite... scale. Imperium: Galaxy wide. Star Wars: Galaxy wide so why does it not stand to reason that the populations of said galaxies are not the same?? The SWs gal is not a small fraction of the Imperium, its a massive Galaxy wide empire!! Factor in the fact that aliens are ALLIES in SWs and the Imperium just nukes the xenos then why doesnt theSWs galaxy have an advantage in numbers?? I mean the Mon-Calamari, Bothans, Sullustians, Wookies etc etc form a MASSIVE proportion of the standing army of the Alliance. 

Technology: Rite, im afraid the Alliance has the Imperium beaten here. Turbo laser batteries on an Imperial Star destroyer can fire once ever 2-3 seconds. The solid slugs from the Imperial navy take a lot lot longer, and Torpedoes even longer than that. Lances im not sure about but im guessing the same (anyone know??) All SWs ships have Ray AND Particle shielding so it doesn’t matter if your torp is the size of a tower block its still going to hit the shields of the ISD. SWs ships trade salvo after salvo of heavy laser cannons and grind down shields on other ships.
HOWEVER there is very little in the SWs universe that could cope with a nova cannon, and apart from the one off special weapons like the Death stars, Galactic guns and Eclipse SDs Etc. But as we ALL know, super wepons dont win wars, men with rifles do . Saying that, NCs according to fluff take 30 mins to reload, so in most cases that’s 1 shot per battle so there is only so much damage they can do. Add to that tactical weapons like Gravity Well projectors, Ion cannons, vastly superior Fighters and Bombers (Xwings, Bwings etc) I really think that the StarWars universe would really hammer the Imperium in space combat.

Jedi Vs Phsycers. Now that is again pretty clear cut in my opinion. Jedi have total mastery of the Force, whenever ive seen phsycers they are screaming shells of men holding their heads and as likely as not to kill themselves and their allies as the enemy. In combat a Jedi is increadable. Redirecting laz shots back into guardies, cutting through anything with one swipe: Power armour, tank hulls, terminator armor I really don’t think it would make much difference, I don’t think the Imperium has anything that comes close, but there are hardly any Jedi at all so again, there is only so much damage they can do.

Troops. Now then, things are a bit different. The imperium comes into its own on the ground. Stormtroopers are well trained, armed and equipped but tbh they are tactically very unflexible. At-Ats would get mauled by Titans hands down. There is very little armour in the SWs universe at all, but the awesome ground attack fighters like xwings, bwings etc would probably balance that out pretty quickly. SWs fighters fire proton torpedoes which are described as small yield nukes designed to punch a big hole in a Star destroyer. I think even a titans shields would struggle with that, and once the void shields are down 1-2 torps would slay it. Bearing in mind the Alliance has thousands and thousands of fighters and titans are very prized in the Imperium I think that wouldn’t work out well for the Imperium :-S
Quite simply Space marines would crush any Alliance troops ive ever seen/read about no question. They are without equal, but they cant be everywhere and while they are hard as nails and deadly in combat they are always outnumbered and they would have the same kinds of troubles they have always had. They would still own anything in a straight fight of course, but they may have problems with a Jedi or 2 :-S

Result: Probably a draw with a slight lean towards the Star wars universe… but one thing is certain… it would be the greatest war ever. Fact.

Anyway that’s probably enough for now. Anyway its totally impossible to really compare 2 fictional universes but that was my attempt anyway :mrgreen:


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## Talos

I am sorry but Pskyers are much more powerful than Jedi. In game stats they look weak but if you read some of the BL novels then you will see the power the Pskyers have. In one book a Pskyer has the power to make a whole hive his puppets ( that is a few Million) can a jedi do that ?
Sorry but even in Combat while they dont have light sabers Pskyers have much more powerful offenence powers to a Jedi. Sure if a Jedi gets close he is going to slice that Pskyer up but Pskyers are much more powerful in terms of psykic powers.
I am taking about the beta and Alpha level Pskyers that are used as battle Pskyers or are members of the Inq.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i would have to disagree with you on that one talos. the jedi and the sith are two different types of force users, one centered on defense and the other on offense. i am sure there are some psychers in the 40k universe that would absolutely rape a jedi, yes, but they are very very few in number. the jedi's powers are centered more on defense, control of one's mind and the protection of that body and mind. a psycher would have a very hard time. also you have to take into effect that there are different levels of jedi as there are psychers so you wouldnt have a padawan going head to head with mephiston like people.

as for the sith they are centered souley on offence. they are the big damage dealers and life takers. yes there are few jedi and sith but i doubt they wouldnt band together if they were attacked by the imperium. this would increase their numbers greatly but they would still not have as much as the imperium. still a sith lord would absolutely merc on the battlefield. also on a side note wookie and ork battles would be the shit. everyone in the war would stop to watch this one play out.


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## Zondarian

The Imperium would win. While the spaceships look big in Star Wars they are shit compared to the Imperiums which are measured in kilometers. The storm troopers would be powerful IG but would be alot weaker than SM, and the chances are there wouldn't be more stormtroopers than SM. The only things Star Wars have to beat the Imperium are the Force and the Death Star. And there are not enough Jedi/Sith to win and the Death Star is proven in Star Wars to be beatable. Taking out the Jedi would be difficult though, they could slice SM in half as easily as a stromtrooper, and it would be the ultimate CC weapon, something like no armour or invunerable saves allowed. BU the Imperium would win with ease, I can't even bring myself to suggest that Boba could beat Shrike. Altough Han Solo and Chewbacca would kill everyone with there pure awesomeness and the Millenium Falcon would not be defeated.


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## Daneel2.0

Treewizard648 said:


> Simply put, in Star Wars it takes a death star to blow up a planet, however in 40k all it takes is an Imperial cruiser to wipe out an entire planet (exterminatus).


Sure, the Death Star destroyed a planet in a single hit – that hit turned the planet into an asteroid belt. An exterminatus doesn’t do that mostly. Don’t get me wrong, I believe there is a weapon that is capable of doing it, but generally they don’t. 

Additionally, Star Destroyers can (and have) destroyed planets with orbital bombardments. Much like an exterminatus. Add to that there are many more weapons in SW that can accomplish the destruction of a planet (and some that can destroy whole stars) and I think that the advantage still remains with SW in space.



Treewizard648 said:


> Lets count; Death Stars: 2 built/destroyed; Imperial Cruisers: unknown amount built/destroyed. Ask yourself again with these numbers, who would win?


Um, SW still wins in space at least. Not quite sure why you want to compare Death Stars to Cruisers (unless you think that *only* Death Stars can destroy a planet - which is incorrect), but it's not a valid comparison.



Phrazer said:


> I think the best example to use to compare the 2 is the Galactic Alliance at the end of the Yuhzen Vong War as the Galazy is pretty much the most united its ever been, so with that in mind...


I think we were doing Empire (with Palpitine) as per the OP; even if it wasn’t as united, it would become united quickly faced with an external threat.



Phrazer said:


> Rite... scale. Imperium: Galaxy wide. Star Wars: Galaxy wide so why does it not stand to reason that the populations of said galaxies are not the same?? . . . . .


Imperium is *not* galaxy wide – that’s the problem. The SW Empire, by way of contrast, is a galaxy wide government. The population differences between the two are vast, with the SW Empire being *much* larger.



Phrazer said:


> Technology: Rite, im afraid the Alliance has the Imperium beaten here. Turbo laser batteries on an Imperial Star destroyer can fire once ever 2-3 seconds. The solid slugs from the Imperial navy take a lot lot longer, and Torpedoes even longer than that. Lances im not sure about but im guessing the same (anyone know??) All SWs ships have Ray AND Particle shielding so it doesn’t matter if your torp is the size of a tower block its still going to hit the shields of the ISD. SWs ships trade salvo after salvo of heavy laser cannons and grind down shields on other ships.


Yes, the Imperium is beaten hands down by the Empire in tech. Some things to keep in mind. Blasters are not lasers (this includes turbolaser cannons which are a type of blaster). Blasters are a serious design improvement over lasers using both light and a high energy particle beam in combination (though there was a variant of the blaster that used plasma instead which was more damaging to drones and other technological systems). 

As to rates of fire, I don’t know if there are any GW cannon sources the discuss this. If you know of any, let me know please since I’m interested. 



Phrazer said:


> HOWEVER there is very little in the SWs universe that could cope with a nova cannon,


The nova cannon isn’t anything special for SW actually. It’s just a big nuke fired from a rail gun. And the fact that it’s fired from the rail gun doesn’t even matter since none of the KE ever hits the target; the detonation of the nuke occurs before impact (the speed just serves to get it there faster). SW shielding easily copes with this weapon. Add to this there are only 9 Battleships packing Nova Cannons in the Imperium and that they don’t know how to make the things anymore and you have an even less decisive weapon system.



Phrazer said:


> Jedi Vs Phsycers . . . I don’t think the Imperium has anything that comes close, but there are hardly any Jedi at all so again, there is only so much damage they can do.


I remain unconvinced either way on this one. For one thing, the two systems are just too different here for me to easily reconcile. 



Phrazer said:


> Troops. ….Quite simply Space marines would crush any Alliance troops ive ever seen/read about no question. They are without equal, ….


Well here I think you are right and wrong. IG and Storm Troopers and pretty close with the edge in equipment going to Stormtroopers. But Space Marines don't beat Mandalorians. My previous work comparing them shows that Mandalorians win against Tactical Marines 3:2 and against Assault Marines 2:1. And this is without the best of the armor that they wore. If you upgrade the Mandalorians to Besker armor, the numbers are 3:1 for Tactical Marines and 4:1 for Assault Marines.

As to tanks, you’re right. 40K armor is just better both in quantity and in ability that the SW armor. You’re also right about the fliers in SW. Just remember that even with good fliers, eventually you have to actually take and hold ground. And that can’t be done from the air.



Talos said:


> I am sorry but Pskyers are much more powerful than Jedi. In game stats they look weak but if you read some of the BL novels then you will see the power the Pskyers have. In one book a Pskyer has the power to make a whole hive his puppets ( that is a few Million) can a jedi do that ?


Yes they do, and have – Palpitine was very adept at it and his influence effected an entire Star System, not just a single world. That he chose to be more subtle with his power was a function of his purpose. He could just as easily have completely dominated the whole area, but then his true colors would have been shown so to speak. On the flip side, do you know of any 40K psykers that have pulled Battleship out of orbit and slammed it into a moon, against the full power of its engines? I don’t, but it’s happened at least 2 times I know of in SW. That said, I can’t account for things like Gates of Infinity or Vortex of Doom. These just don’t have good analogs in the SW universe. 



Zondarian said:


> The Imperium would win. While the spaceships look big in Star Wars they are shit compared to the Imperiums which are measured in kilometers.


No, SW fleets dominate the Imperium’s pretty much hands down. Class for Class they are bigger, faster, better armed, better shielded, better armored and more flexible both tactically and strategically. In addition, the Imperium is outnumbered about 1000 to 1 in total number of Battleships, and it’s even worse as you go down in class size.



Zondarian said:


> The storm troopers would be powerful IG but would be alot weaker than SM, and the chances are there wouldn't be more stormtroopers than SM.


Partially true; while Space Marines would take Stromtroopers hands down, there are way more Stormtroopers than there are even IG troopers. Orders of magnitude more.



Zondarian said:


> The only things Star Wars have to beat the Imperium are the Force and the Death Star. . . and the Death Star is proven in Star Wars to be beatable.


Sure, the Death Star was beatable, but it took massively sophisticated Bothan spies to penetrate the thing and even then the Emperor had to let them find the data before they found the weakness. What makes you think that technologically weaker Imperium agents could even find the weakness? There are no machine spirits for them to talk to in SW, and Palpitine is unlikely to give them the data in a gambit to force them out of the shadows. Plus, even if they did get the blueprints of the Death Star, their computers couldn’t have understood the language nor would they have analyzed it as the Rebel’s did. No, the Imperium would have tried to tackle the Death Star heads on, and would have been humiliated.


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## dtq

Just going to throw out a few bits of SW lore just to get some handle on the size of the Star wars Galactic Empire the independant Corporate Sector has 30,000 SYSTEMS, they tread on eggshells to avoid stirring up the empire. The glactic senate had a senator not for each system but for each sector... The galactic empire itself controlled 50 million systems (pulled from a website which referenced 2nd edition star wars RPG)... 

I can put a figure on the imperiums worlds at roughly 1,000,000 worlds (from the imperium of man section of the 3rd ed rule book) Note thats 1,000,000 worlds not necesarily systems... The imperium of man is at best 1/50th the size of the galactic empire...

With regards to planet killers The star wars universe has far more than just the deathstars, although the deathstars vapourize planets in a single shot. The galactic empire had plenty of other planet killers Including virus bombing techniques. Im pretty certain I remember the empire using a virus to destroy a planets population as a publicity stunt blaming it on the rebel alliance! An inquisitor has to believe a planet incurably corrupt to order the exterminatus, The gallactic empire destroyed planets on a whim just for propaganda.

The star wars galaxy had its equivalents of terminator armour, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GTU_AV-1A_Assault_Armor However the galactic empire hadnt lost the technology of its making, when faced with a foe against whom this armour was required they could turn it out en masse in short order.

I love WH40k as much as anyone, but the imperium of man even at the time of the great crusades had lost most of its technology. The emperor merely slowed down the slide, but even at the time of the great crusades man kind was falling apart at the seams. The imperium is simply rotting away. I would guess the "imperium" would have been at its strongest in the dark age of technology, although of course it wasnt then the "imperium" Unfortunately we know very little of humanity before the age of strife. The imperium of man is a mess logistically speaking, They can lose a system and not know about it for 50 years... communications and travel appears to be slow and unreliable in WH40k.

The WH40k imperium is 1/50th the size of the Empire, and is in a state of decay and dissarray. The imperiums administration is horrendously medieval, The Empire was fast efficient had far superior gallactic communication and was still on a forward momentum on technology.

The gallactic empire still had the ability to create new technology to counter new threats. The empire could still fall back to droids to give even greater numbers of soldiers fast inexpensive and completely without remorse or fear. They could turn out heavy armour in no time. The imperium has precious little flexibility that we know of, its technology is pretty much time warped, and their ability to create the better stuff, new is patchy at best.

I think sheer numbers, the empire being 50x the size of the imperium and the empires far superior communication and ability to innovate would be decisive. Terra could fall long before a fraction of the space marine chapters were even aware of a threat. The imperiums forces are often independant armies not under central orders, try ordering all 1000 marine chapters at once, it just wouldnt happen. Try getting a high lord of terra to order the space wolves to abandon the fang and defend ophilia 7 at all costs. It aint going to happen. Whereas if the emperor gave an order to evacuate coruscant and defend dantooine at all costs it would happen without question!

And on the ewoks note the imperium has lost whole worlds to ferals armed with simple tools, chiros, gathalamor (2nd edition sisters codex)


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## Gold170492

1 word...

Yoda

Nuff said

:biggrin:


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## The Sullen One

Well both sides make good points, and certainly both Star Wars and 40k are great examples of Gothic sci-fi, though Episode I is and always will be a crime against humanity.

Anyway rather than getting to deeply into this argument, I'm just going to say one thing, the Borg. They'd just assimilate everyone, game over.


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## hells_fury

how about this, the imperium of man is the future of the allience, hmmmmm, yeah, bet nobody thought of that. most of the fancy star wars tech was lost in the dark ages of technology. jedis became extinct and were replaced with psykers as the force mutated into the warp. yeah, bet no-one seen that coming lol


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## High Marshall Mendark

Well all i can say to this battles outcome is:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

lmao the water i was drinking just came out of my nose i was laughing so hard at that


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## chromedog

Treewizard648 said:


> GWS would never whore themselves to that two-bit writer now, or in 39,000 years! He may have the money but its never going to happen. Hell, a cataclysmic war between a pre-heresy Imperium and the Old Republic is more likely to happen!
> 
> Besides, hasbro sucks and so does wizards of the coast, everything that comes out of those two is useless CRAP. (except magic:the gathering and JUST the D&D rulebooks.) Pre-painted miniatures especially D&D mini's are pure garbage. When I play D&D I use GWS models.


Sarcasm detection FAIL. To say that Hasbro only produces crap, and then cite two examples to back your claim. Irony much?

As Hasbro absorbed several smaller games companies, as it shall also do to GW unless they raise their game. GW are still a minnow in the pond. They should at least be aware of the sharks circling.

Psssha! Nerds debating two entirely fictitious and inconsistent universes as to which is better. Still, at least it isn't a Rugby is better than NFL argument. 

{Neither is a real sport. Real men play hockey ]k:


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## The Sullen One

chromedog said:


> As Hasbro absorbed several smaller games companies, as it shall also do to GW unless they raise their game. GW are still a minnow in the pond. They should at least be aware of the sharks circling.


How do figure this one mate, GW are pretty much the market leaders in the wargaming industry, and with over three hundred stores in nearly twenty countries their hardly minnows. Think of GW as the Tesco of the wargaming industry and you've got a much more accurate picture.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

please dont get me started on how football is better than rugby and hockey. i love all three and would hate to have to take the multi-melta to those two.


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## Zondarian

The Sullen One said:


> How do figure this one mate, GW are pretty much the market leaders in the wargaming industry, and with over three hundred stores in nearly twenty countries their hardly minnows. Think of GW as the Tesco of the wargaming industry and you've got a much more accurate picture.


I'm a fan of Warhammer as much as the next Heresy member, but being the leaders of Tabletop gaming doesn't in itself mean the company is financially successful. They have never been the richest company in the world and as far as finances go Warhammer is not rich enough to be anywhere in the same league as Hasbro and it's shitty toys. The phrase that seems useful here is that, Its safer to be a big fish in a small pond but you would still get your arse handed to you by a medium sized fish from the ocean.


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## Red Orc

Exactly. If GW is Tescos, Hasbro is WalMart.

The fact is, GW may be the biggest tabletop battle-game company in the world, but then again I'm the world's tallest person... in my house. In a very small and limited field, I'm definately the biggest.

Hasbro, on the other hand, wouldn't even be able to fit in my house, it would to knock half the street down to accommodate its garganuan Jabba-the-Hutt-esque bulk.

I hope you know where I'm going with this metaphor, because I really can't remember.

:live long and cyclops:


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## Ravingbantha

In a ground fight the Emperium would win, Shear numbers and alot better armor, combined with Spaec Marines... However in Space Battle it's hard to say. I think it was in the book "Battle for the Abyss" it talked about how slow ship to ship combat was, they fired a shot and it took a few mins to hit, space battles would last hours. All the while SW warships can pound away at the Imperium ships and cripple them in the few mins it took to reload.

However the one saving grace for the Imperium would be the shear bulk of their warships. With so much armor plating, it's possible that the Hulls and shields would simply shrug off most attacks. So what you have are ships that are fast firing with hundreds of weapons and thinner armor Vs. Massive thick plated warships that shoot sky scraper sized torpedos and can carry Space Marines for Boarding actions.


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## Col. Schafer

Star trek wins


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## Fallen

chromedog said:


> Still, at least it isn't a Rugby is better than NFL argument.
> 
> {Neither is a real sport. Real men play hockey }





BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> please dont get me started on how football is better than rugby and hockey. i love all three and would hate to have to take the multi-melta to those two.


all three are good, football for its (shity) way of being marketable (seriously it should take maybe...maybe...a hour and a half to do the game, rugby (aka backyard FB w/o pads) for being smashmouth, and hockey (ice hockey i assume...what other kinds are there that men play?) because i cant do half that shit and they do it all ...sober

for a purely pain causing sport, check out wrestling (not pro)



Red Orc said:


> Exactly. If GW is Tescos, Hasbro is WalMart.
> 
> The fact is, GW may be the biggest tabletop battle-game company in the world, but then again I'm the world's tallest person... in my house. In a very small and limited field, I'm definately the biggest.
> 
> Hasbro, on the other hand, wouldn't even be able to fit in my house, it would to knock half the street down to accommodate its garganuan Jabba-the-Hutt-esque bulk.
> 
> I hope you know where I'm going with this metaphor, because I really can't remember.
> 
> :live long and cyclops:


ya i also agree that GW has the market cornered in its little pool, but against the hasbro....im not so sure, all they need is another good cartoon to market (TMNT, GI JOE, Transformers - all original runs) to make their product be the apex of their industry.


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## muffinman82

Yeah but what if the death star nuked Terra 

There goes the golden toilet


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## ICatoSicarius235

"Bigger"
HAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAH
No. An ISD is smaller than an escort.
"Muh BDZ"
Non-canon, likely propaganda, as we have not seen a single one performed.
"Muh Vader"
Got owned a Luke, who was only just discovering his true potential.
"Have they taken the bait?"
"No"
"What do you mean, 'no- ack!" _his chest suddenly blows out._
The "Sith Lord" lowers his bolter, his form shifting and warping, before it changes into an Alpha Legionnaire. _"For the Emperor of Mankind." _Frozen in shock, everyone is slaughtered where they stand. Across the Galaxy, countless beings die. The Force itself screams in agony, before going silent. 
The. Freaking. End.


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## ICatoSicarius235

This is making me physically ill. The sheer amount of wank I am seeing here is obscene. 
I'm pretty sure that Daneel is from Stardestroyer.net, a place known for wanking Star Wars.


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## ICatoSicarius235

These people are retards.


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## ICatoSicarius235

Daneel, you have shown no evidence. You are the worst debater here.


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## ICatoSicarius235

"Hundreds of super star destroyers"








Just...no. That's not going to happen. The sheer amount of wank you are spewing is hilarious.
Star Wars fans are pure distilled cancer, and always have been. That is really the only explanation you need.
"The Force gg" is the go to answer for most of them, and unlike other memes like "lol Speedforce", it's 100% unironic. Other fanbases at least try to show feats and interpret them, but SW wankers are content with upvoting vague ramblings about how the Force can do anything, and how lightsabers can cut anyone, and if you disagree you probably had a bad childhood.
If you're a Star Wars fan reading this and thinking "well I'm not like this", that may be true. But it doesn't make a difference, because you are complicit in the shi**ery of those fans. You are part of a toxic culture that allows people to wank subpar space fantasy characters without social and moral repercussions. Every day you are not working against them is a day enabling them. You are part of the problem.
There is no such a thing as a good Star Wars fan.
You will never get an objective view on this from a Star Wars fan. The type of SW fan you're likely to encounter here has likely fully bought into Lucasfilm's unprecedented brainwashing. They probably have Legos and watch the Rebels cartoon. You won't get through to them, and they cannot be objective. Because the truth is, every new piece of merchandise is like additional wool over their eyes, every new cartoon episode another layer of insulation from the reality that Star Wars is fething rubbish lmao.


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## ICatoSicarius235

Here's an F u to the mando lovers:



Mandalore was falling. People had said it was impossible; that nothing could take it, not even the Empire itself. 
They were wrong. 
"So much for 'Unbeatable force' ", said a Catachan Guardsman, as he ripped a warrior's head from his struggling corpse. Resistance was, oddly enough, light. The enemy's troops were underequipped, poorly trained, and unbelievably incompetent. "How were these people feared?" thought a Kriegsman as his regiment advanced into the supposedly "impenetrable" city. They were held up for a moment as some engineers cleared up a barricade that the fleeing enemy had hastily erected. The Commissar in charge led the purge, as thousands of fleeing Mandalorians were gunned down by the pitiless las-fire of Emperor's Finest.
Up in orbit, the wrecked hulks of Mandalorian battle cruisers floated, scorched and pitted beyond recognition. Their ships had been woefully underprepared for an invasion fleet of this magnitude. It did not matter. 

A few weeks later..
The ships orbiting Mandalore became aware of new arrivals in the system. They translated from the Warp, bearing the proud colors of the Ultramarines. 
Primarch Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines Legion, along with the Hero of Graia, Captain Titus, had returned.
Shortly afterwards, Mandalore surrendered. With its fall, the way to Kamino lay open.


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