# Lost Primarchs?



## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

I keep hearing things about the lost primarchs coming back and the main source people site is the 5th ed rulebook. I've looked through it front to back, but I must be missing the part where it mentions this (if it is mentioned there). Can anybody give some guidance?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

I can't, maybe you should ask these people about the rumours.


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

I dont think Gamesworkshop have released any information on the 2 lost primarchs because its there for people to make their own fluff with it.


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## NeckbeardEpidemic (Aug 4, 2008)

Since I first started reading everything I could about 40k I have tried to find anything concrete on the two missing primarchs and the closest I ever came was a short story that mentioned a primarch Rubinek. The author later stated he didn't fully understand what a primarch was and that it was an accident, so just when I thought there was at least a name that hope was stomped out.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

hmm, then I guess what I'm reading/hearing is just purely rumors....


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

same here i was able to find a short story, ill post the link when i find it again, about a marine that had once been a part of the Emperor's Templars legion who's primarch was Tempus Praetor. obviously it hasnt been backed up and so it must be considered fake. has anyone read The Lightning Tower yet? its part of the HH series and there is a part that takes place in an amphitheater of the emperor and there are statues of all twenty primarchs surrounding it. BUT the second and eleventh primarchs have been removed stating that their stories are "seperate tragedies" that had seemed "like aberrations". so we know they were found


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Someone told me that, one of the primarchs was Sigmar, from Warhammer Fantasy. AS supposedly, Warhammer Fantasy is a planet i nthe 40k universe. Jsut what someone told me...I don't beleive it eprsonally.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> Someone told me that, one of the primarchs was Sigmar, from Warhammer Fantasy. AS supposedly, Warhammer Fantasy is a planet i nthe 40k universe. Jsut what someone told me...I don't beleive it eprsonally.


GW have repeatedly stated this is complete [email protected], and never intended this to be true. It was all rumour. The Emperor is the 40k equivalent to Sigmar, who united his people against their enemies and forged an Empire/Imperium.

As to the lost Primarchs, this is more to do with the likes of Russ, Corax and Jagathai Khan, than the II and XI legion's Primarchs. Personally I think it'd be cool if they showed up again. I always thought the return of the SW 13th company was a precursor to Russ returning.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

Well technically we know 19 of the 21 Primarchs, but then one was secret so do we know 18 of the 20 known Primarchs and 1 of the unknown Primarchs?

My head hurts


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

There aren't 21 Primarchs there are 20.Omegon and Alpharius count as one Primarch as they lead one Legion.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> emperor and there are statues of all twenty primarchs surrounding it. BUT the second and eleventh primarchs have been removed stating that their stories are "seperate tragedies" that had seemed "like aberrations". so we know they were found


I reckon these tragedies were either to do with their utter corruption and the emps killing them or them being lost in the Maelstrom, it was stated that millions of troops and thousands of ships were lost there during the great crusade, maybe they were trying to clean up the Maelstrom and got sucked in and lost?


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

That, Exitus, is a brilliant idea!


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

But not a very adventerous idea, no offence, its plausible and may fit it but I just thought there'd be more of thing with the missing two legions. Like they participated at Istavaan IV or whatever. Why were they deleted from the databases anyway???:dunno:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

That will be Extremely hard to pinpoint on, so far in the fluff they claim to have been expunged even at the birth of the Heresy. This must have happened a while before the dissension amongst the Primarchs. My best bet through a logical deduction was that something terrible and twisted befell the brave souls of the two Expedition fleets when they were cleansing the Maelstrom, if I remember correctly it was infested with some 20+ Ork Empires and a lot of Daemon infested worlds, they have no Idea how big it is as a whole seeing it is twisted by warp it may have contained highly abnormal number of systems and worlds and Emperor seems to have put a seal on the place calling it "Purgatos" after the so called expedition and its losses I.E. people are banned from the place and all the records of whatever happened therein are purged as well, why should he do all that? Because this was a 'empbarrising' defeat, also for the Imps for the events which may shadow the Great Crusades astonishing success and also that the emp lost Two Space Marine Legions there which may run in contradiction to his claim that Astartes can overcome all things!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeah i heard about fans making their own primarch but thats a crappy idea if you ask me. they did some serious shit to get erased from memory and it would make a fantastic series of novels to cover those to stories. hope GW do something with this either during HH novels or a stand alone thing.


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe they went crazy violent and blew up a cathedral, pissing the Emperor off, so to dishonour them, he erased them from the data banks and they must prove themselves to him again....or maybe they're all dead like you said lol.

But I do think it is a pretty big waste :nof two legions. Could they have been massacred at Istavaan IV like the Salamanders??? Or maybe Horus erased unbeknownest to the Emperor before he went Chaos or soemthing. Maybe GW( No Offense) needs to get thier stuff in order!!!!:angry:

What is the Maelstorm anyway? I know it's a sorta warp storm but besides that I don't know a thing about it.....


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Maelstrom is, after the Eye of Terror, the largest stable warp storm. And is situated towards the Galactic centre. Its supposedly where elements of the Word Bearers fled to, as well as the current base of the Red Corsairs.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

See, i think it can't be any of these "they were mutant, traitorous, etc." because of the twenty-first founding and all the chapters that were attempted to be founded but failed because of serious mutations and were then destroyed or lost. They didn't have everything about them wiped from all records.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

It's probably something as mundane, like the two lost chapters had names and background, but the person(s) who created them refused to give sole copyright to GW. The same happened with the fifth Chaos God (Mal'el, I think) in WFB, who was written out after the designer left GW.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Well, the background has been changed so many times that it doesn't matter. The oldest fluff I have for the Ultramarines says they're a Third Founding chapter who were given the number of one of the Legions that went over to Chaos; so if they can change the history that much of the Ultras, they can do anything they like to the other chapters. They could fill gaps if they wanted. They haven't, therefore they don't want to.

As for Malal, he was invented originally for a comic strip and doesn't feature in the Realm of Chaos books, so he's not exactly integral to the whole mythology. His only champions were Kaaleb Daark and Skrag the Slaughterer, IIRC, and I don't think Daark ever had stats (I know of none anyway, which isn't the same thing!) and Skrag has been re-invented as a Prophet of the Great Maw. So to what extent he's "the fifth chaos god" is debatable... you might call the Horned Rat the fifth Chaos God (also not there in the beginning, Skaven only appeared with 3rd Ed WHFB and WFRP).

So... not a problem for them I don't think. The Lost Legions are lost for a (game) reason, not because GW is stuck in legal wranglings.

:considering all the angles cyclops:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

maybe the primarchs were lost and to erase anything that might say the primarchs and legions werent invincible was erased so has not to question what was being done in the crusade. i couldnt see the emperor coming up with this idea but maybe malcador persueded Him that this was the best thing for public sentiment.
hell it would have been a big dent to moral if two whole legions went missing, but it must have been early in the crusade for the majority of people not to remember anything about them. it is stated in the lightning tower by dorn that the other primarchs should have learned from the 2 unknowns mistakes so it sound alot like they had a run-in with chaos and something happened to them. maybe it wasnt chaos and they joined someone else against the imperium, maybe they sided with the eldar or possibly came across some slaan and listened to their teachings. lets hope something comes out soon on them as its been left to long and all this second guessing is doing my head in


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I like it.

First, because it gives you the chance to personalise the history of the Imperium your own way - anyone who cares can have a theory, anyone who doesn't can just ignore it - and because a good mystery never hurt anyone.

There are enough mysteries in our own history that have kept people entertained for centuries - where was the battle in the Teutoburger Wald? Was King Arthur a real person? Where did King John drop his jewels? What happened to the Templar fleet? Who killed Henri V? What is the secret of El Dorado? What happened to the crew of the Marie Celeste? etc etc - so a bit of speculation in the 40k universe is no bad thing I reckon.

But if it does your head in, you can just ignore it. It doesn't matter. It's just made-up stuff about a game you know :wink:

:liking the mystery cyclops:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

> First, because it gives you the chance to personalise the history of the Imperium your own way - anyone who cares can have a theory, anyone who doesn't can just ignore it - and because a good mystery never hurt anyone.


Here, here. Too many people moan about threads like this being pointless, but if you think so, don't moan about it, just ignore it and leave the rest of us to our speculation.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> Someone told me that, one of the primarchs was Sigmar, from Warhammer Fantasy. AS supposedly, Warhammer Fantasy is a planet i nthe 40k universe. Jsut what someone told me...I don't beleive it eprsonally.


I do actually believe that sigmar is a missing primarch... let me share some of the evidence i found.

1: Sigmar fell to the planet like all other primarchs
2: had super-human strenght like all other primarchs
3: lived long (200 years i believe) like the other primarchs, but the other primarch live longer than sigmar because they had technology
4: Eldar created Slaanesh and Slaanesh is on the warhammer world
5: he's human lets not forget that! :biggrin:
6: warhammer world is just like a normal world in the 40k univers: these are the armies in both warhammer and in the Universe

Orks = Orks
Chaos = Chaos
Human's = Human's
High E. = Eldar
Dark E. = Dark Eldar

Lizardmen, High Elves worshipped the OLD ONES and the OLD ONES were in the 40k universe battling the C'tan

hope i helped to convince that sigmar is a missing primarch


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> I do actually believe that sigmar is a missing primarch... let me share some of the evidence i found.
> 
> 1: Sigmar fell to the planet like all other primarchs
> 2: had super-human strenght like all other primarchs
> ...


Gw has officialy stated that sigmar isn't a primarch, however, so unfortunately, no.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> Gw has officialy stated that sigmar isn't a primarch, however, so unfortunately, no.


well they stated that like a year ago, because too many people started relizing the sigmar is a primarch and GW got annoyed with the mistake they did so they said Sigmar isnt a primarh

trust me, look at my evidence and you ill relize that sigmar is a primarch, they will say "ohh sorry lads Sigmar is actually one of the missing primarchs"
you just sit and wait like the emperor


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## Brother Hunter (Oct 15, 2008)

ah but also the Emperor found _all_ the primarchs and they _all_ chose a side during the heresy and sigmar dies...so therefor he cannot be a primarch


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> well they stated that like a year ago, because too many people started relizing the sigmar is a primarch and GW got annoyed with the mistake they did so they said Sigmar isnt a primarh
> 
> trust me, look at my evidence and you ill relize that sigmar is a primarch, they will say "ohh sorry lads Sigmar is actually one of the missing primarchs"
> you just sit and wait like the emperor


if gw says he isn't,b he isn't. Period. unless you are writing the fluff, you cant unilaterally declare it so, no matter how much you want it to be true.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I agree with SoM. GW have said it, so it's fact. Besides, Sigmar died without any mighty being coming from the stars to claim him as his son and give him a legion of supermen to command. The fact is that WFB was around long before 40k, and was used as a template of sorts for the new system, so some resemblance in fluff is inevitable. 

If anything, the Emperor represents Sigmar, only in a futuristic setting. Think about it. He united mankind against evil, he established a new empire that became the dominant force in it's world, then died and became a god that still looks over his people. 

Damn, I just blinded myself with that flash of insight.:biggrin:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well GW actually stated a fair few years ago that WHFB and WH40K are in separate universes (with the Warp as a sort of alternate dimension between the 2). Sigmar is definitely NOT a Primarch;

He didn't have super human strength

He did live much longer than the average of his times but it was still only about 70+ years

Old Ones were basically the Masters of the Warp for a while and could seemingly travel through other dimensions virtually at will, plus they were constantly tampering and directing sentient life forms. So what's to say they didn't seed the WHF world with a number of races already present in 40K?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

mabye you hus have corrected, k if GW said he's not a primarch he's not a primach but it just looks like Sigmar fits into one of the slots

also ill tell Baron Spikey, that Sigmar lived 200 years, he did have super-human strength

and GW never said Sigmar died, he just left the empire and went somewhere (to meet the emperor is what people say)

k so if GW say Sigmar is not a primarch, then he's not a primarch


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Between 1987 and about 1996, Warhammer and 40k were in many ways "the same game". The one was an extension into space of the other. The Old Ones, Slann, Zoats, Bolt Guns, Transmat Sites, Warp Gates, Plasma Pistols, Orc/ks, Elves/dar, the Chaos Gods, and other races, artifacts and beings united them.

During this period, the idea came about (I don't know if GW started it) that Sigmar was a Primarch. Ferrus Manus is I think right that there is a way of reading the story that suggests this is the case, even down to his disappearance. Perhaps he _did_ meet the Emperor, then rejoin the Imperium.

Or perhaps he didn't.

After (about) 1996, WHFB and 40k started to diverge. Orks became violent fungi, while Orcs remained violent mammals (as far as we know); the Slann became the priests of the Lizardmen and disappeared from 40k; Zoats disappeared from Warhammerworld and were folded back into the Tyrannid Hivefleets in 40k. Bolt guns and the like disappeared from Warhammerworld too.

During this period, GW began to deny that there were connections between the systems. Hence "Sigmar is not a Primarch", along with "Orks are not Orcs" and similar statements.

Lately (I spotted it from when the Daemon Codex/Army Book ws released, it may have been going on longer), the systems have begun to converge again - to paraphrase Alessio Cavatore, "whether they're in Warhammerworld or 40k, these are the same beings". How far it will go is anyone's guess. GW may change their minds about Sigmar, though I can't see it. Why should they give up the "missing" Primarchs? Or they may just play up the connections, and leave us to speculate.

But, in sum, GW's explanations are not consistent, so it's not reasonable to say "GW says this" or "GW doesn't deny that" or anything like that - _all_ GW's statements should be regarded as provisional, I think - nothing more than "the position at the moment is...".

:long game cyclops:


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Brother Hunter said:


> ah but also the Emperor found _all_ the primarchs and they _all_ chose a side during the heresy and sigmar dies...so therefor he cannot be a primarch


There were 20 primarches 2 where lost, 8 joined horus and 10 with the emperor.

If not 9 joined horus 9 the emperor but, they weren't all found.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

9 bad guys (including Horus)
9 good guys 

all 20 were found, two primarchs had fate and information removed


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## War_pig18 (Jan 6, 2009)

The Cdx:Imperialis states that 1 of the "unknown" primarches had the "gift" of invisibility...so its assumed that they were found....maybe they just didn't last till the heresy....

btw : it's mentioned both that half the primarches went to each side and that Horus "corrupted no less than 9" .....both are facts from ROC and IA 2 resectively ..........so whatever happened,happened before the Heresy.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

just finished mechanicum and there is a passage towards the end with dorn talking to malcador about having 15 legions to send to isstavan instead of the 13 he had avaliable. malcador said to forget the 2 unknowns as they are lost to them forever but the way dorn said it was that somehow he might possibly be able to get the other two involved. so to me this means that they werent destroyed or taken by chaos has in another book sigismund wants to smash their statues in the imperial palace but the emperor wouldnt let him. 
what i make of it all and i might be wrong but i think that maybe after they had crusaded for a while and killed any non compliant world they started to not believe in the crusade and what the emperor was doing to the human world or even the xenos too. so maybe they rebeled against it and the emperor, probably thinking too if he was doing the right thing, just let them leave the galaxy and got on with what he was doing instead of outright destroying them.
maybe the primarchs grew up on xeno worlds were humans lived side by side and when it came to killing beings that they were freindly with they could stand it any further and left the imperium. 
pure speculation on my part but something for you guys to think about.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> has in another book sigismund wants to smash their statues in the imperial palace but the emperor wouldnt let him.


Which book?


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## cco12 (Jun 30, 2008)

Well I have heard that a peace of GW literature says that Horus was walking past the containment cells for the primarchs or something and he looked and two were still occupied by "trajedys" I also have a simple thery of my own. The two missing primarchs were killed at a young age. Many of the primarchs crash landed on desolate planets(take Caliban, people were getting beat up by monsters till their primarch showed up, then we get the dark angels) Therefore I believe that some Primarchs simply died, IT HAPPENS PEOPLE!


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

cco12 said:


> Well I have heard that a peace of GW literature says that Horus was walking past the containment cells for the primarchs or something and he looked and two were still occupied by "trajedys" I also have a simple thery of my own. The two missing primarchs were killed at a young age. Many of the primarchs crash landed on desolate planets(take Caliban, people were getting beat up by monsters till their primarch showed up, then we get the dark angels) Therefore I believe that some Primarchs simply died, IT HAPPENS PEOPLE!


Especialy if say they crash landed on a planet inside the eye of terror and didn't have any (Unmutated humans to help them) and were killed or corrupted or are still there (because time is weird in that place) waiting to be discoverd.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

cco12 said:


> Therefore I believe that some Primarchs simply died, IT HAPPENS PEOPLE!


This a possibility, but if you look at the tone of the _very _few mentions of the lost primarchs, it does seem that they were discovered and joined with their legions, but something happened after this. After reading to _The Lightning Tower_ this is the impression I got anyway.
There is also the vague mention of one having the gift of invisibility, which suggests they were discovered.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Is everyone forgetting Alpherius and Omegon. That means there are actually 21 primarchs. 19 were found during the expansion of the imperium. However it is unknown whether the other two were ever found because there is no data about the in imperial records. This could mean that they were never found or that they have been given a secret job to do by the emperor, or had to be 'taken care of'. However it is unlikely that they were found or Horus and the Emperor would have both wanted their help during the heresy. It was also never made clear if the chaos gods sent them all to inhabited planets so the two missing primarchs could just be dead on a planet somewhere. It is unlikely for them to be brought into the game because the are missing to try to stimulate players to make up their own rules/fluff/legion etc for them. If they did bring any back it is fairly certain that onlly one would be brought back to maintain there original role.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The whole argument about GW leaving them out to inspire gamers to create their own chapters doesn't really wash, as there are already thousands of homebrew chapters out there. I reckon it's more to do with something like the whole fifth chaos god affair, where GW didn't have the copy right to someone elses IP.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Okay guys, now I'm getting sick of all these "Missing Primarch" threads, they're pointless, they lead to questions already asked and answered, and personally I think they should not be allowed anymore. Who's with me?


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Here, here. Too many people moan about threads like this being pointless, but if you think so, don't moan about it, just ignore it and leave the rest of us to our speculation.


*cough cough*


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Which book?


it may be in the lightening tower but dont qoute me on that. :no:


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Well, I kind of have no life and I have asked some gw higher-ups about this. They say officially that it gives space for people to create their own first founding in the stead of a crappy second founding. This also give freedom to create primarchs to match.
But he said that the original idea was that before the Imperium was what it was at the climax of the HH, there were two primarchs that the Emperor found before the rest. It is said that when they found out they were two of 21 (counting the twins) one of them attacked the Emperor and was struck down. The other was all for the Emperor and underwent a secret mission in the maelstrom, then he was later seen as a deamon primarch, who was killed by the Emperor as well.
He also said earlier and less exciting fluff said they were simply not found.
They changed this though and he said that it was space for players to fill. As for gw filling the space, its about as likely as the Emperor getting up off his golden broken toilet. :no:

(As for banning "missing primarch" forums, stuff it. People can talk about what they want.)

*Edit*
Also I don't discredit the idea of this having to do with the mystery of the Legion of the Damned. Now that primarch would be bad-ass (pardon my French)


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Skye said:


> Also I don't discredit the idea of this having to do with the mystery of the Legion of the Damned. Now that primarch would be bad-ass (pardon my French)


As cool as it would be, its impossible. The Legion of the Damned were one of the 'Cursed Companies' (21st or 31st batch of chapters i think)


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Micklez said:


> As cool as it would be, its impossible. The Legion of the Damned were one of the 'Cursed Companies' (21st or 31st batch of chapters i think)


? :dunno:
Never heard of that?
Like SW 13th company?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

No, the SW's 13th Company was a company of the old Space Wolves Legion that disappeared in the Warp.

The Cursed Founding was an unsuccessfull attempt to genetically combine material from different Primogenitor Chapters' geneseed banks. All the Chapters in this Foundation (27th IIRC, I haven't looked it up on wiki but it'll be there) were 'cursed' in that things went catastrophically wrong with them. They went mental, all died, became chaotic, were extremely unlucky, had bad breath, stuff like that.

:cyclops of ancient knowledge:


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Okay guys, now I'm getting sick of all these "Missing Primarch" threads, they're pointless, they lead to questions already asked and answered, and personally I think they should not be allowed anymore. Who's with me?


I don't think they should be banned, the two missing primarchs are an important part of 40k lore and it's quite right that they are discussed. I honestly don't mean this to sound flippant but if you know that reading them will annoy you it's probably best to avoid reading them. 

My personal theory on the missing Primarchs is similar to that of "Unknown Primarch"'s. They were found but at some point told the Emperor to "shove it" and left for pastures unknown.

The Legion of the Damned were originally a chapter known as the Fire Hawks who were founded in the Cursed Founding (13th founding I think). They disappeared in the warp and were reported lost. They seemed to contract some warp condition which slowly kills them but leaves them more powerful than normal marines. They'd appear on occasions when most needed and then disappear aftwerward (a Fire Hawks banner was left at the scene of one appearance). The original background said they were guided by the Emperor's Tarot. They Originally appeared arround White Dwarf 101 to 103 (I remember it well because it was one of the first issues I ever bought.


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## Larmour (Sep 14, 2010)

ok yes they were discovered at that point but then horus went back in time and killed them. So the last two primarchs are dead and so everyone knows the blood ravens aren't a first founding chapter and it is believed that magnus the red is their primarch


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Larmour said:


> ok yes they were discovered at that point but then horus went back in time and killed them. So the last two primarchs are dead


No, Horus didn't go back in time and kill them, not sure where you got that from. 

_The First Heretic_ I would say sheds more light than any previous publication on the lost primarchs:




Page 162-3:
'I am,' Lorgar confessed. 'I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers - and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of.'
The silence was hardly comforting. 'Well?' Lorgar asked.
'He might,' the one-eyed giant said. 'There was talk of it, before Monarchia.'
'Did he come to ask your thoughts?'

...

'...Instead, he (Russ) swore that he'd already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.'
'Two already lost.' Lorgar looked back to the city. 'I still recall how they-'
'Enough,' warned Magnus. 'Honour the oath you took that day.'
'You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?' Lorgar met his brother's eyes. 'Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name because of a promise?'
Magnus wouldn't be drawn into this. 'The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you, Lorgar...





Page 295-6:
'The eleventh Primarch sleeps within his pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now,' he (Xaphen) confessed...
'It would save us a lot of effort, wouldn't it?'
'And it would spare Aurelian from heartbreak.' ... 'I remember the devastation that wracked him after losing his second and eleventh brothers.'

...

'But the eleventh Legion-'
'Is expunged from Imperial records for good reason. As is the second. I'm not saying I don't feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we'd unwrite a shameful future.'
Dagotal cleared his throat. 'And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.'
...'Those are just rumours'...
'Perhaps, perhaps not. The thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all other Legions around the time the second and eleventh were "forgotten" by Imperial archives.'


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## Romolo (Sep 6, 2010)

O.O

I should not have looked.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nice thread necromancy there lol ^^. I refuse to read what CotE has wrote, much as i want to. Damn i need the First Heretic to read!!

Looking back over the thread though, alot of people have been mentioning a primarch with the power of invisibility, well this has since been confirmed to be Corax it would seem, so still up in the air on the other two.

And yeah, where did you get the impression Horus went back in time and killed them?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yeah, where did you get the impression Horus went back in time and killed them?


Never use LSD while watching Dr. Who.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Never use LSD while watching Dr. Who.


lol there you have it the second primarch is the doctor lmao oh and never smoke a joint watcing dog soldiers..they all look lke russ ....anyway knew isholdn't have looked but cote is lke hanging the carrot now i cant wait for First Heretic....will be locking myself away with that one.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Never use LSD while watching Dr. Who.


Works for me... just kidding... maybe.:crazy:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

amusing to say the least, look as one who had created my won legion from a lost primarch i am happy to do that as it gives me enjoyment to do it and i hope people lke it when they read it but if GW ever decide to bring it all out well that would be worth a few quid


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

i wonder if GW will ever say if Magnus is the primarch of the blood ravens... i think its cool that they keep us all guessing, but at the same time it would be nice to know, but that wouldnt make it as interesting and exciting. maybe one day Ahriman will just go to one of the ravens and say 'oh and by the way, Magnus is your primarch, deal with that!' whic would probably be either hushed up by the BR's, or would make their chapter self destruct, or maybe even turn to chaos! the possibilities are endless. I do think that it would be more interesting than say if it turned out they were just another loyal chapter and that Corax or somebody like that was their Primarch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

sethgabriel1990 said:


> i wonder if GW will ever say if Magnus is the primarch of the blood ravens... i think its cool that they keep us all guessing, but at the same time it would be nice to know, but that wouldnt make it as interesting and exciting. maybe one day Ahriman will just go to one of the ravens and say 'oh and by the way, Magnus is your primarch, deal with that!' whic would probably be either hushed up by the BR's, or would make their chapter self destruct, or maybe even turn to chaos! the possibilities are endless. I do think that it would be more interesting than say if it turned out they were just another loyal chapter and that Corax or somebody like that was their Primarch.


Maybe the Blood Ravens are actually descendants of the Dark Angels and was founded by a fallen who had repented. Then the records of their founding was destroyed so that no one knows that their chapter stems from the traitors within the Dark Angels. Obviously there is no proof to back this theory up but it would be better than eventually finding out that they're a freakin' Ultramarines successor.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

yeah i agree Chompy. would be pretty damn lame to find out that they didnt have a really cool backstory or no twists.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, Horus didn't go back in time and kill them, not sure where you got that from.
> 
> _The First Heretic_ I would say sheds more light than any previous publication on the lost primarchs:
> 
> ...



oh shit, just creamed my pants. this for me says there IS a story already made ready for revelaing the lost primarchs and from what im reading here and filling in the gaps with my superior intellect it sounds like a good one. GW just reveal all in a future novel and put us out of our misery. 

like the twist about the remaining marines going to the ultramarines banner. makes sense and from what is mentioned in lightning tower it would seem those primarchs arent dead either.
 oh how interesting that would be if they turned up again. give us the novel after age of darkness please.


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## seb2351 (Oct 11, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> oh shit, just creamed my pants. this for me says there IS a story already made ready for revelaing the lost primarchs and from what im reading here and filling in the gaps with my superior intellect it sounds like a good one. GW just reveal all in a future novel and put us out of our misery.
> 
> like the twist about the remaining marines going to the ultramarines banner. makes sense and from what is mentioned in lightning tower it would seem those primarchs arent dead either.
> oh how interesting that would be if they turned up again. give us the novel after age of darkness please.




If the twist regarding the true origins about the Ultramarines size was true, wouldn't that mean that the Geneseed those marines interred into the Ultramarines would be different from the those of true Ultramarines? 
Surely, if the Adeptus Mechanicus were doing their job properly of monitoring the tithes of geneseed, they would notice that the Ultramarines were sending geneseed that was not all the same?
 Or am I reading too deep into this?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

*Guys please try to keep things within spoiler tags.*



Unknown Primarch said:


> oh shit, just creamed my pants. this for me says there IS a story already made ready for revelaing the lost primarchs and from what im reading here and filling in the gaps with my superior intellect it sounds like a good one. GW just reveal all in a future novel and put us out of our misery. like the twist about the remaining marines going to the ultramarines banner. makes sense and from what is mentioned in lightning tower it would seem those primarchs arent dead either. oh how interesting that would be if they turned up again. give us the novel after age of darkness please.


I totally disagree with you, I would hate for them to reveal an entire backstory for the Lost Primarchs. But regardless, Its extremely unlikely that they ever will (so say several BL authors), and as for them already having a planned backstory, according to ADB they don't. All were ever gonna get is tidbits and I hope it stays that way.



seb2351 said:


> If the twist regarding the true origins about the Ultramarines size was true, wouldn't that mean that the Geneseed those marines interred into the Ultramarines would be different from the those of true Ultramarines?


That would be correct yes.



seb2351 said:


> Surely, if the Adeptus Mechanicus were doing their job properly of monitoring the tithes of geneseed, they would notice that the Ultramarines were sending geneseed that was not all the same? Or am I reading too deep into this?


Did you consider the possibility that the Inquisition/Ad Mech already knew? Perhaps the Emperor sanctioned such things. Because I find it unlikely that its something Guilliman would have done without the Emperor's sanction.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Spoiler tags added, good call CotE.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i personally cant see the point of keeping the lost primarchs secret and why fans wouldnt want to know. yes its been a great mystery, one that was created for a pure gaming point of view, but that just comes from protofluff design in my mind. 
its pretty much like saying we wish they never told us about omegon but for me i think fluff should be developed to reveal stuff but then make you ask aload more questions after.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

im happy as long as people stop caiming that one of them is sigmar. that really riles me lol


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

Come children. Sit on my huge lap. I shall tell you a story; a story of the Emperor, who was also huge.

We all know that the Emperor was a being that far surpassed a normal man in every way. It's no stretch of the imagination to realize that this also includes libido. It soon became evident that only a being with the strengths and longevity of a primarch would be able to withstand the lust of the pinnacle of human achievement. Thus, two female primarchs were created. One was the most beautiful woman any man had ever laid eyes on. The other, however, was short of stature and slightly rotund. There is speculation as to whether this was an abnormality like that of Magnus the Red or Sanguinius. Others whisper that the Emperor had a midget fetish.

However, both of the female primarchs were loyal to the Emperor and loved him. They each commanded a legion of their own. However, as women are wont to do, they grew possessive over the Emperor's affections, each wanting the Emperor for herself. It was then that the two primarchs battled each other, with their 18 brothers cheering them on. In an eerie act of forshadowing, the misshapen one dealt a mortal wound to the beautiful one, while she in turn slew her smaller sister. Upon the destruction of the two primarchs, the shorter warriors took to the stars in exile while the beautiful legion of women vowed to never create another super woman as their beauty had cost them their Primarch.

This is why the Sisters of Battle are normal women in Ancient Marine Gear and there are no more Squats.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Boss_Gobbstompa said:


> Come children. Sit on my huge lap. I shall tell you a story; a story of the Emperor, who was also huge.
> 
> We all know that the Emperor was a being that far surpassed a normal man in every way. It's no stretch of the imagination to realize that this also includes libido. It soon became evident that only a being with the strengths and longevity of a primarch would be able to withstand the lust of the pinnacle of human achievement. Thus, two female primarchs were created. One was the most beautiful woman any man had ever laid eyes on. The other, however, was short of stature and slightly rotund. There is speculation as to whether this was an abnormality like that of Magnus the Red or Sanguinius. Others whisper that the Emperor had a midget fetish.
> 
> ...


LOL, this theory is definitely a keeper. Hell hath no fury like a primarch woman scorned.
Beautiful ones = Space Amazons?


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> LOL, this theory is definitely a keeper. Hell hath no fury like a primarch woman scorned.
> Beautiful ones = Space Amazons?


Nah, the "Daughters of the Emperor". That's why they keep that name now. Although, with all that Primarchal procreating, it is entirely possible that some of the original battle sisters WERE actually daughters of the Emperor and their Primarch. This would explain why they all look so similar.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i personally cant see the point of keeping the lost primarchs secret and why fans wouldnt want to know. yes its been a great mystery, one that was created for a pure gaming point of view, but that just comes from protofluff design in my mind.
> its pretty much like saying we wish they never told us about omegon but for me i think fluff should be developed to reveal stuff but then make you ask aload more questions after.


Some people think it would ruin the 40k world. In fact, I think the history and present 40k fluff is really doing fine without the two missing primarchs. I'm pretty much in that mindset that they were there but so what? ADB actually has written the first literature into what any effects these legions had on the Imperium. If anything this piece of fluff presses forth of what they actually were and did.

I really don't like the idea of the lost legions being lost purely for the sole purpose of a game in which people really just ignore that piece of fluff anyway.

It will definitely be interesting to what else BL will show us concerning that legion. If anything I personally think the lost legions are GW's ace in the hole.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

id appreciate peoples view if it was like we found out the skywalker twins were actually triplets then that would have a nasty effect on star wars fluff but the lost are characters we have known were involved in The Great Crusade from the beginning and any backstory they create can easily fit into the current fluff as having a plot device like 'expunged from imperial records' can be used as a advantage for retconning with plausible reasoning. 
id have faith in most BL writers to make a very good backstory and one that would fit in with current fluff and also have us ask more questions after to keep it interesting.
but the best time to have a big reveal would be while HH novels are in full swing as you could use them to shape the loss ends and keep from any big plotholes arising.
as i said before with the 40k fluf as we know it, the plot device of it being 10k years after the events of HH and all kinds of info would have been lost or twisted then any alterations can justified with that in mind.
personally i think knowing what happened to them would refresh the whole story and put abit of life into the fluff as its gone as stagnant as the imperium in my mind.
nothing wrong with shaking things up alittle to get peoples interest again.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

It'll be a calm day in the warp before BL enlighten us with the official explanation of what happened to the 2 lost primarchs. Ive taken great interest into the musings and theories flying around, and this is exactly what BL/ GW intended. 

My theory ties in with some of the greatest unresolved questions concerning the HH.
Why were the records of the 2 primarchs expunged? Horus committed the worst acts in human history but they werent expunged.
And why was the Emperor so keen to return to Terra at the height of Great Crusade? Why did he suddenly abandon and risk all just to open the Webway gate?
And what about the 9 v 9 legions during the HH? What a coincidence, so balanced, if only there were another legion or 2 to tip the balance...

So this all leads to the logical conclusion that at least one of the missing primarchs is/was in the Webway. The Emperor forsaw the HH, and knew he couldnt do anything about it. His only choice was to tip the balance of war in his favour my recovering the hidden primarch/s. His ace in the hole (just as they are for BL/GW should they run out of ideas). 

Somehow one or more of the primarchs was trapped in the Webway, likely at the time of the scattering. Or even placed there by the Emperor for protection.
Hence the expunging of records - you need to keep your ace hidden from all knowledge.

It explains his reason for outlawing rogue psyker use (Magnus and his ruining the webway gate).

Of course, because there are 2 missing primarchs, you could always work in alternate theories - so 1 primarch is trapped in the Webway, and perhaps 1 was a pariah, allowing Chaos' entry into the incubation cells resulting in the scattering. Perhaps 1 primarch was sacrificed in some way to allow the scattering where otherwise Chaos would have killed/tainted all of them.

But as far as my logic goes, the 2 missing primarchs must tie in to the Emperors decision to rush back home to Terra during the Great Crusade/HH.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

That would be interesting. There is some hint that the Lion was a traitor primarch during the Horus Heresy by ADB. If this is so, I could totally see that since the lost primarchs legions were absorbed by others.... cough cough (utramarines) that the original context of the legions being split in half during this conflict as still legitimate. But I still think this is theory until more can be proven.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Darkoan said:


> It'll be a calm day in the warp before BL enlighten us with the official explanation of what happened to the 2 lost primarchs. Ive taken great interest into the musings and theories flying around, and this is exactly what BL/ GW intended.
> 
> My theory ties in with some of the greatest unresolved questions concerning the HH.
> Why were the records of the 2 primarchs expunged? Horus committed the worst acts in human history but they werent expunged.
> ...



the thing with trying to expunge records of the horus heresy is it was galaxy spanning and just utterly impossible for it to go unnoticed plus the fact is was THE pivotal point in imperial history the one thing that defined mankind as it is in 40k. how would you explain why the emperor was a corpse on the throne, the re-jigging of the imperial forces, the untold systems that would have been directly effected by chaos, the loss of a few imperial primarchs etc etc etc, the list goes on. plus the fact that chaos followers could spread the truth of those events (if thats possible) and the same with the xenos then you are never going to hide what happened.

now with a primarch and his legion its alot easier as they would have only been operating in a limited number of systems, maybe a limited number of people know of their existence and if they were expunged early in the crusade then even less worlds would know of them as they hadnt come into complience at that point. the emperor could have told all high ranking officials to forget about them and once they died the knowledge gets lost. hell maybe anyone who knew about them got strategistcally placed in the worst battlefield and got silenced that way.

as to a few of your questions, you should read up on abit more fluff on the matter so you get a better picture of the great crusade and HH. its clearly set out what most of the players were doing but we dont quite understand what the emperors plans were as such but he did trust in horus to run the crusade as that was the point of a primarch, to lead the armies and help be the proxy of Him as he couldnt be in all places at once. it just went abit tits up but that could be the plan. you decide.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

@Unknown Primarch- most of the Imperium *doesn't* know about the Horus Heresy, there might be mangled myths that tenuously explain how the Emperor was betrayed, in a very primitive way no doubt, but it's only the very highest echelons of Imperial Power that even have an inkling of the whole truth.

It's not difficult at all to expunge even such a galaxy spanning event from the records, 10,000 years have passed after all- hell we can't even remember clearly some events that happened 1,000 years in the past (events I hasten to add that unlike the Heresy weren't purposely covered up), 2,000 years ago and we're relying on myths and legends from stories books like the Bible to try and piece together history.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> There is some hint that the Lion was a traitor primarch during the Horus Heresy by ADB.


where does ADB give that hint?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Go back a page or two.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> @Unknown Primarch- most of the Imperium *doesn't* know about the Horus Heresy, there might be mangled myths that tenuously explain how the Emperor was betrayed, in a very primitive way no doubt, but it's only the very highest echelons of Imperial Power that even have an inkling of the whole truth.
> 
> It's not difficult at all to expunge even such a galaxy spanning event from the records, 10,000 years have passed after all- hell we can't even remember clearly some events that happened 1,000 years in the past (events I hasten to add that unlike the Heresy weren't purposely covered up), 2,000 years ago and we're relying on myths and legends from stories books like the Bible to try and piece together history.


your missing my point. the fact that it was a key point in imperial history is the reason why it wasnt wholesale expunged from imperial record. yes most systems wont know the whole extend of the info of the HH but the basics are known but absolutely nothing is in the imperial public domain of lost legion information. but this is kinda hard to fathom as the legions had number designations and its not the 19 and 20 that were expunged so you would have thought that someone who had clearance to look at legion records i.e. a ordo agent would notice legions II and IX missing, then surely someone somewhere would have asked questions.

back to my point on normal citizens knowing about the HH, ive read a far few books where non astartes have spoken of the Horus and the heresy, hell ive even seen curses been used with horus in them so people do know. ive also seen the pious citizens speak of the sacrific the emp made for mankind so they Do know, its just more than likely not the full detail of it.


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## Boss_Gobbstompa (Aug 6, 2009)

All wild sorties aside, I had heard way back in 3rd Edition, that the two missing primarchs were actually the intellectual property of a writer that was no longer writing for Games Workshop and they did not have the rights to his works (Kinda like the 5th Chaos God). But, since they had already talked about 20 Primarchs, they just did in the fluff what they legally did in real-life. "Yeah, they existed. No, there are no records."


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> That would be interesting. There is some hint that the Lion was a traitor primarch during the Horus Heresy by ADB.


Mmm i do remember reading somewhere that Horus thought the Lion would side with him and was counting on it, but didnt, but that may have even been a fluff poster so dont quote me. Im sure Im thinking of Khan actually.

Appreciate I havent absorbed all fluff material, but I do find there is a little confusion over whether the lost primarchs joined in the crusades. My understanding is they did NOT, or if they did it was NOT significant and there involvement was NOT in the timeline of the HH books (ie from Ullanor and afterwards). I havent read anything that says otherwise but happy to defer to more knowledgeable heads. For example, at Ullanor, surely someonw would ask 'Wheres Primarch Davo and Primarch Bill? Theys missing this hell party.' 

Anyone have an attempt at making up the lost Primarchs as they do with SM chapters?

Also, has anyone considered that the Emperor created a legion for the primarchs before he found them all as he did with the others? If so what did he do with them?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

No I think your right. I remember the Lion being referred to in such a way. 

To the second question. I would say no to BL and plenty of yes towards the more fan based authors.

Towards the last question Im a bit confused. Could re-word your question? Im not understanding it well


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Darkoan said:


> Appreciate I havent absorbed all fluff material, but I do find there is a little confusion over whether the lost primarchs joined in the crusades. My understanding is they did NOT, or if they did it was NOT significant and there involvement was NOT in the timeline of the HH books (ie from Ullanor and afterwards).


The Lost Primarchs did fight in the Great Crusade and were deleted from Imperial records at least 43 years prior to the events of Isstvan V. _The First Heretic_ reveals quite a lot (or at least brings a lot of the previous hints and speculation together into one place) about them and their Legions. I've written a summary on Lexicanum for anyone that is interested, spoilers are present though.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions#The_First_Heretic


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

I hope Lion is not a traitor. Then Luther is corrupted by chaos because he was to strong also the Lion is a traitor... then they really fuck the Dark Angels...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Darkoan said:


> Mmm i do remember reading somewhere that Horus thought the Lion would side with him and was counting on it, but didnt, but that may have even been a fluff poster so dont quote me. Im sure Im thinking of Khan actually.
> 
> Appreciate I havent absorbed all fluff material, but I do find there is a little confusion over whether the lost primarchs joined in the crusades. My understanding is they did NOT, or if they did it was NOT significant and there involvement was NOT in the timeline of the HH books (ie from Ullanor and afterwards). I havent read anything that says otherwise but happy to defer to more knowledgeable heads. For example, at Ullanor, surely someonw would ask 'Wheres Primarch Davo and Primarch Bill? Theys missing this hell party.'


Yeah the Lion, Guilliman, and Sangunius were considered the gravest threat by Horus- they were the Emperor's most powerful triumvirate, that's why they were scattered so far apart. Horus didn't even try to turn them (well he did with Sanguinius at the very end, but I think that was more an act of desperation).

Well Ullanor happened a couple of years before the end of a 200 year+ long Crusade, so there was plenty of decades for the Lost Primarchs to have taken part before we know anything about the Crusade's timeline.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Rogal Dorn talks about the lost primarchs with Malc in the lightning tower, they were definately gone before the heresy.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Towards the last question Im a bit confused. Could re-word your question? Im not understanding it well


 
Sure - the Emperor seems to have built up legions before he found each Primarch based on each Primarchs' genes. Depending on what theory you adhere to to, is it reasonable to suggest the Emperor created SM for Primarch II and XI?

My preferred theory is that at least one Primarch was hidden for safekeeping, hence their expunged records for security (the equivalent of not writing down your passwords). Or lets say you believe the lost primarchs were simply never found. It would be reasonable to think the Emperor would have a legion ready for the lost primarch/s. Where are they?


Of course, they may have simply not been created for any number of reasons I can think of, but just putting more fluff out there.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Could have gone to the UM .... or had them butchered.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It could possibly be. At least that would have been my take all the way if I hadn't read the _First Heretic_. _The Lightning Tower_ made it seem a little less serious concerning the fate of the lost primarchs. In I think _Mechanicum_ there was discussion of the possibility that one of the primarchs would return. However, _First Heretic_ definitely highlights the gravity of the consequences whatever they may be, towards the lost legions and their primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tbh, I don't know if they could have been transitioned into the UM. Really no reason to think it other than the insane numbers of the legion.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

or melded into the other leigons but it does seem that the UM got the bigger share of the pie and one wonders why, why would the emperor allow the UM to become the biggest leigon unless there was a deal brokered between him and papa smurf....the mind boggles really


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Darkoan said:


> Sure - the Emperor seems to have built up legions before he found each Primarch based on each Primarchs' genes. Depending on what theory you adhere to to, is it reasonable to suggest the Emperor created SM for Primarch II and XI?


Yes, all the Astartes Legions were founded and took part in the Great Crusade initially without their Primarchs. We know that both the II and XI Legions took part in the Crusade and had both their Primarchs discovered. 



Darkoan said:


> Or lets say you believe the lost primarchs were simply never found. It would be reasonable to think the Emperor would have a legion ready for the lost primarch/s. Where are they?


We know the two lost Primarchs were discovered and took part in the Great Crusade at the head of their Legions. As for what happened to their Legions? Rumour and speculation are commonplace (even in-universe):


one of which is the rumour they were inducted into the XIII Legion.




gen.ahab said:


> Tbh, I don't know if they could have been transitioned into the UM. Really no reason to think it other than the insane numbers of the legion.


Which is a telling enough reason to think so, especially considering the Ultramarines' numbers rose to such heights around the same time the II and XI Legions and Primarchs were deleted from Imperial records...

But of course it was just speculation and rumour that was being discussed by the Word Bearers...


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I would like for them to have been incorporated into the ultrasmurfs. That would make the legion/chapter infinitley more interesting in my eyes.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Catpain Rich said:


> I would like for them to have been incorporated into the ultrasmurfs. That would make the legion/chapter infinitley more interesting in my eyes.


I poked your bum


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

no wonder some of the primarchs turned when He got rid of 2 legions, said to never speak of them again and they dont know what happened to them. this would sow the first seeds of distrust in Him and His goals. then with some of the other ways He treated some of the primrachs it was near enough inevitable that they would turn against Him.

maybe this big perception of Him being such great and noble being is just for show and they saw a different side of Him at times and it wasnt always happy families.
i know it would be hard to be equal with 20 kids so there is bound to be jealousies and its those little seeds that gradually sowed heresy and it was always unavoidable...... if it wasnt plannned.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Unknown Primarch said:


> no wonder some of the primarchs turned when He got rid of 2 legions, said to never speak of them again and they dont know what happened to them. this would sow the first seeds of distrust in Him and His goals. then with some of the other ways He treated some of the primrachs it was near enough inevitable that they would turn against Him.
> 
> maybe this big perception of Him being such great and noble being is just for show and they saw a different side of Him at times and it wasnt always happy families.
> i know it would be hard to be equal with 20 kids so there is bound to be jealousies and its those little seeds that gradually sowed heresy and it was always unavoidable...... if it wasnt plannned.


They knew what happened to at least one of them as at least the word bearers were involved in getting rid of one of them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Which is a telling enough reason to think so, especially considering the Ultramarines' numbers rose to such heights around the same time the II and XI Legions and Primarchs were deleted from Imperial records...
> 
> But of course it was just speculation and rumour that was being discussed by the Word Bearers...


-CotE

Yes this I feel is an interesting piece of information. Part of me totally thinks it make sense. The Ultramarines having way too much man power that more than doubles any other of the legions. Plus all the information you have provided from _First Heretic._

Then another part of me questions this. One, I think Guilliman would have had a lot of suspision and bad relations with other legions. And though these bad relations are very possible, besides for Logar, there isn't much information to verify this. Second and the biggest reason why this makes it more improbably, is that, that would mean the Ultramarine geneseed is mixed with two or at least one of other legions, and still, they are considered the purer of the geneseeds from the legions.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think the way guilleman could possibly get away with it so to speak would be that he had conquered a vast region of space under his own banner and having all those worlds with possible recruits makes it a ideal scenario for him to create a cover story on how he got so many marines. plus the fact ultramar wouldnt have any/few none ultramarine marines in the area then there would be no one to question it.

as to the geneseed question, it could have been a case of when they are killed, the unknown legion marines geneseed could be purged and forgot about. how many would actually have been killed in the HH and the purging taken place is another matter but surely something happened if the ultramarines have one of the purest geneseed stocks.

the only other option is lorgar is just letting his hatred for guilleman stoke his paranoia and he was just jumping to conclusions but what is being insinuated sounds alot better.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens used one of the lost legions gene-seed now.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

might the two unknowns be Women?...and that fact covered up for "equality" reasons? :shok: ...say goodbye to the galaxy if THAT secret ever got out :angry: icknose:


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## MEOWMIXFOREVER! (Jul 9, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> As to the lost Primarchs, this is more to do with the likes of Russ, Corax and Jagathai Khan, than the II and XI legion's Primarchs. Personally I think it'd be cool if they showed up again. I always thought the return of the SW 13th company was a precursor to Russ returning.


Which Primarchs of the renegade legions survived exactly? I get that most must have died, but I am lost to who survived if anyone.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Emperor's Children- Fulgrim is alive, though he isn't in control of his body.

Iron Warriors- Perturabo is alive

Night Lords- Konrad Curze is dead

World Eaters- Angron is alive

Death Guard- Mortarion is alive

Thousand Sons- Magnus the Red is alive

Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus- Horus is dead

Word Bearers- Lorgar is alive

Alpha Legion- Nobody has a goddamn clue


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## kroxt (Mar 3, 2011)

just htought of this as i read thorugh this massive debate. The Ultramarines absorbing the 2 other legions would make sense becasue of their geneseed purity. They have three seperate samples, so the gene seed would take three times as long to mutate due to harvesting and replanting, or different chapters use different sources, so that all brothers of a chapter share the same "father".


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