# possible "primarch" for the grey knights



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i was giving it some thought the other day as my good buddy ben from work is a mega grey knights fan and thought i might see what the wise and hallowed members of HO think (although i know that he has now joined HO).
with all the mystery surrounding the Grey Knights is it at all possible that thier Primarch for want of a better word is the Emperor himself.
A chapter of psykers picked up from not one planet but hordes of worlds on the Black Ships, taken to Titan for testing and implanted with the Emps own gene code.
there is no more powerful psyker then the Emperor and i know there are those that believe he is the "father" of the custodes but could he also be the father of the Grey Knights, just a thought and i wanted to see what everyone thought. After all if this could be the case it might explain why they are so incorruptable and pure s the emperor himself was nigh on impossible to corrupt, and only the genetic coding from the Emperor could hieghten the Grey Knights already awesome psychic abilities.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

There are hints and rumor floating around that they are of Thousand Son and another geneseed.


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Lol, I love that we are back on this one again!


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

What? Thousand Sons? Where has there ever been hints that their gene-seed was used?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Only rumors I have heard are that they are of the emperors gene seed.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I believe that their geneseed is from no other source than the most holy God Emperor of Mankind.


----------



## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

what about Garro there was all that talk about it and why he was trying to get the ultramarines Psyker


----------



## Sacred Feth (Jan 13, 2011)

I also follow the theory that their geneseed came from the Emperor.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Ultimately all Gene Seed comes from the Emperor.
I'm not so sure that the Emperor actually has a Gene Seed in the way the Primarchs do. The Emperor created the Primarchs and their Gene Seed, if he had his own then why bother?
He could have made one huge legion of millions with an endless supply his own Gene Seed but instead he made the Primarchs and from them the Astartes.


----------



## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

yeah but having your genes pulled out would eventually kill you and must hurt best to let his minions do it


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Tarvitz210300 said:


> yeah but having your genes pulled out would eventually kill you and must hurt best to let his minions do it


Or perhaps twenty gene seeds could produce far more superhuman warriors than one, even if that one is from the Emperor Himself. I think he certainly used his gene-seed for the Grey Knights, and I don't think he could've created twenty of them, one for each of his Primarchs, without understanding the mechanics by first using his own.

There's also the theory that each Primarch represents an aspect of the Emperor's personality, and he basically created them for shits and giggles. Kind of like having clones of yourself; one representing your aggression, another your mercy, a third your guilty pleasures, etc. But the Emperor doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do things simply for shits and giggles.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I am pretty sure that the Emp does not have a geneseed in the way Space Marines do. I think that was created as a way to mass create them. Plus some of the rumors coming from the new GK dex is that they are created from a couple unlikely sources aka stock that went to chaos, I mean they did have 9 chapters genestock just laying around. if I was going to guess I would say TS and Death Guard.

If anything is based from the Emp it would be the Custodian Guard.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Ultimately all Gene Seed comes from the Emperor.
> I'm not so sure that the Emperor actually has a Gene Seed in the way the Primarchs do. The Emperor created the Primarchs and their Gene Seed, if he had his own then why bother?
> He could have made one huge legion of millions with an endless supply his own Gene Seed but instead he made the Primarchs and from them the Astartes.


The "natural" order of things; the emperor then the primarchs then the astartes. 

I've always been sceptical of the emperor's gene seed being used in astartes. It seems to me that even if the emperor could create gene seed of his own then it would be too powerful for a human to absorb or incompatible altogether. The primarchs are the link between humanity and the emperor.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I suppose it comes down to what is considered Gene Seed and what it actually does. I've always thought of the Gene Seed as what makes Space Marines what they are, the genetic code that allows them to make use of all the extra gubbins they have. 
This was created by the Emperor as part of the process of making a Primarch, meaning, I would guess, that the Primarchs had all the extra bits that a Space Marine has, extra heart, lung, spit acid, high tolerance for poison etc. 
Other than the above (I know there's a lot more) what else would the Gene Seed do?

In and of itself it actually seems to do very little, it doesn't make the SMs skeleton stronger, there's a gland that does that. It doesn't make them fearless, that's psycho-indoctrination. 
The Emperor may have used some of his own genetic code to create the Primarchs but I believe that that is when the Gene Seed was created, it's not somethng that the Emperor had all along and then decided to start putting it in things to see what it did.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't believe there is anything that says the Primarchs were made from the Emperor's own genetic material, is there?

It would seem the Primarchs were created using a combination of the Emperor's scientific knowledge and certain occult practices. From those twenty products, Gene-seed--that is, artifical genetic material from which superhuman organs could be cultivated--was harvested. From that material, the Astartes were created.

When we say "Geneseed" in the generic sense, what we're talking about is the Progenoids, are we not? That is the material that is tithed to the Mechanicus for evaluation, and that is so all-important because, once it matures, is used to create the rest of the implants that make an Astartes what he is.

In that sense, I highly doubt that the Grey Knights--or the Custodes--have anything to do with the Emperor's own genetic material. Where the latter are concerned, we've gotten hints in recent titles ("Tales of Heresy"; "The First Heretic") that a different process, one more rarified*, was used to create them. Where the former are concerned, I think the verdict is still out. Theoretically, however, a Primarch is not, strictly speaking, needed to found a Chapter. Any Astartes' progenoids can be used to create another Astartes. Given that all Grey Knights are psykers, and considering the subject matter of "Garro: Oath of Moment", I would argue that there is no one stock of Geneseed used in their creation.



Rather, I believe that the Grey Knights rely on the Geneseed of those potent psykers recruited during the chaos of the Heresy, as shown in "G: OoM", whose loyalty and purity was vouched by standards never applied before to Astartes.


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I don't believe there is anything that says the Primarchs were made from the Emperor's own genetic material, is there?


_"Some say that the Primarchs were created from the Emperor's own genetic stock..." Collected Visions p.27 _

Far from conclusive but the _Collected Visions_ is all I have to hand at the moment so I can't decisively state anything. I'm nearly certain they do have parts of the emperor's genetic material, at the VERY least it's heavily implied.



Phoebus said:


> It would seem the Primarchs were created using a combination of the Emperor's scientific knowledge and certain occult practices. From those twenty products, Gene-seed--that is, artifical genetic material from which superhuman organs could be cultivated--was harvested. From that material, the Astartes were created.
> 
> When we say "Geneseed" in the generic sense, what we're talking about is the Progenoids, are we not? That is the material that is tithed to the Mechanicus for evaluation, and that is so all-important because, once it matures, is used to create the rest of the implants that make an Astartes what he is.
> 
> ...


I thought the progenoids were glands that contained and after a certain amount of time reproduced the gene seed. But I'm hazy on this. One is the pea the other is the pod...


----------



## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> What? Thousand Sons? Where has there ever been hints that their gene-seed was used?


Listen to Garro: Oath of Moment. The Sigillite tells Garro he's to go around the universe gathering men from all legions, "loyal and TRAITOR" alike. The gene seed of most is not all legions are incorporated... you did ask for the hints to it..


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

From the Index Astartes article "Rites of Initiation - The Creation of a Space Marine":



> There are nineteen varieties of gene-seed corresponding to the nineteen different superhuman organs that are surgically implanted into a Space Marine.


Note, of course, that now there are only eighteen varieties, since the Melanochrome no longer exists.



> Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured. These glands represent a Chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.


So, bottom line:

1. There are eighteen varieties of Geneseed, each corresponding with the genetic legacy of a single Primarch.
2. Of those eighteen varieties, the Progenoids collect genetic material from all other seventeen organs/varieties of Geneseed.
3. Once mature, each of the Progenoids is, for all intents and purposes, a single Geneseed.
4. The Progenoids are eventually removed, and it is from them that the implants for the next Astartes to be created are cultivated.

As such, each Astartes = two Progenoids. Each Progenoid = suitable genetic material for another Astartes. As such, each Astartes = genetic material for two future Astartes.

Yeah, I probably should have clarified: I'm looking for something stating concretely that the Emperor's genetic makeup was used to create the Primarchs.

Codex Imperialis states the Emperor "unlocked the secrets of life, unravelling the energies of the Warp, and re-fashioning them to his purposes." "The First Heretic" confirms that occult practices were used to some extent or another to create the Primarchs and/or protect them from the Ruinous Powers. I haven't seen anything saying the Emperor used his own flesh (so to speak) to bring forth the Primarchs.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

HorusReborn, that's jumping to conclusions, I think. I concur that "Garro: Oath of Moment" ...



... sends Nathaniel to recruit Astartes of Loyalist and Traitor Legions alike and thus eventual inclusion of a Thousand Sons Loyalist Astartes becomes likely, ...


... but the way the original statement was phrased, it's a little too direct. It also sounds as if it's the Thousand Sons and ONE other source of Geneseed, which sounds even more implausible.


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Codex Imperialis states the Emperor "unlocked the secrets of life, unravelling the energies of the Warp, and re-fashioning them to his purposes." "The First Heretic" confirms that occult practices were used to some extent or another to create the Primarchs and/or protect them from the Ruinous Powers. I haven't seen anything saying the Emperor used his own flesh (so to speak) to bring forth the Primarchs.


First, awesome breakdown of gene-seed and progenoids. I know how they work but I always forget, haha.

I don't know if there's any explicit proof, but I'd like to think that the Emperor had some direct, physical contribution, even if it was as miniscule as part of his DNA. He considered the Primarchs to be his sons. Did he mean that in a flesh and blood sense, or in a cherished creation sense, like if a mad scientist created twenty killer robots who called him "daddy"? Guess it could be either way.


----------



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry I must have missed something, when did the Melanochrome stop existing, I thought it was still 19 implants?


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Davidicus 40k,

Absolutely, absent concrete proof either of the two is possible. Personally, I think he could consider them his sons in any number of ways. People adopt children and consider them their own all the time, so if the Emperor actually created the Primarchs (whether his DNA was used or not), he'd have even more claim to the title of father. 

normtheunsavoury,

All I know is, the latest Codex: Space Marine does not have a Melanochrome implant... and the implants themselves number a total of eighteen. I have no idea what drove its exclusion.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

We will see when the new codex comes out, its pure rumor right now, but supposedly the new codex narrows the gene stock down to two legions, once points towards the Death Guard and the other, logically speaking, would be the TSons, since almost all of them are psykers as well.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

djinn24,

Honestly, if that were the case, then I don't know why past fluff would make a big deal out of the Grey Knights recruiting from Black Ships (the idea being that high psyker potential is a must).

Either way, though, I have to admit I have no real vested interest as to where the GK come from.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Like I said rumor until the actual book comes out, and maybe then it will not be answered.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Incorruptibility has nothing whatsoever to do with their geneseed. That attribute comes from their indoctrination process which essentially wipes their memory clean and produces a perfect soldier utterly devoid of doubt or weakness.

So feasibly, their geneseed could come from almost any legion with a few obvious exceptions. :grin:


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

sorry i not responded before today, 41 today and have a nasty bug ugh anyway i have not yet got Garro oath of moment due to time restrainrts and until friday at any rate pay day but i will be sure to get it and listen to it. 

i think i did this as at this moment in time there is a lot of mystery surrounding them and they seem to be the least fluffed out leigon compared to the others so will be getting the codex when it arrives.
just a thought that was all but the ideas were interesting to read thanks for the participation.
if the GK come from varying leigons and not just one source originally then that could raise other questions, especially if some of the original astartes were from "Traitor" leigons. i am guessing these are the astartes that did not join in the fall with thier brothers and were left for dead...um....guess if this is where Loken comes in then it is building up to it. i hope not really as Lokens death was a good and honoured warriors death even if it was not the circumstances he would have liked. 
this could prove to be very interesting for anyone wanting to try and take the GK down that path of corruption but hell ten thousand years of doctrination is going to make that job a lot harder then they thought.


----------



## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

it could always be a mixture of two geneseeds (or more if possible) 

so it could be a mixture or Death Guard and Thousands Sons, and i would think the Word Bearers geneseed could be possibly used because of the extreme loyalty and determination characteristics that pre-heresy WB had.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Being the instigators of the heresy probably lead to their gene seed being thrown into a black hole or supernova, just to be sure..... 

I highly doubt the Thousand Sons gene-seed would be used, it's inherently flawed, unstable and causes mutation


----------



## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Yeah, I probably should have clarified: I'm looking for something stating concretely that the Emperor's genetic makeup was used to create the Primarchs.
> 
> Codex Imperialis states the Emperor "unlocked the secrets of life, unravelling the energies of the Warp, and re-fashioning them to his purposes." "The First Heretic" confirms that occult practices were used to some extent or another to create the Primarchs and/or protect them from the Ruinous Powers. I haven't seen anything saying the Emperor used his own flesh (so to speak) to bring forth the Primarchs.


Alright I have that for you:

_"And so the Emperor created the Primarchs, sons born from his holy blood,..." Index Astartes 2 p.2_

_"These (the Primarchs) twenty superhuman gene-sons of the Emperor were created in his geno-labs..." Codex Chaos Space Marines p.4_

_"The Emperor and his progeny, the Primarchs, stood shoulder to shoulder..." Codex Eye of Terror p.4_

Again I must say despite my certainty on the matter there were surprisingly few concrete references to the issue. There are plenty of references that heavily imply it but not many that outright state it.

In regards to the OP I really couldn't say. I think the majority of what makes a grey knight so resilient to chaos is the conditioning and training they receive.

One thing that did pique my curiosity I noticed while reading about Malcador in the _Collected Visions_. There its theorized that Malcador was one of the first to undergo soul binding to the Emperor and retained his sight explaining his psychic might. Now the Grey Knight aspirants, being based on Titan, are only a short trip away from Terra. Maybe they're all soul bound...


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Again I must say despite my certainty on the matter there were surprisingly few concrete references to the issue. There are plenty of references that heavily imply it but not many that outright state it.
> 
> In regards to the OP I really couldn't say. I think the majority of what makes a grey knight so resilient to chaos is the conditioning and training they receive.
> 
> One thing that did pique my curiosity I noticed while reading about Malcador in the _Collected Visions_. There its theorized that Malcador was one of the first to undergo soul binding to the Emperor and retained his sight explaining his psychic might. Now the Grey Knight aspirants, being based on Titan, are only a short trip away from Terra. Maybe they're all soul bound...


guess no one thought of that one. a possibility a maybe that the Grey knights could be soul bound without the consequences is interesting to say the least:goodpost:


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> _"These (the Primarchs) twenty superhuman gene-sons of the Emperor were created in his geno-labs..." Codex Chaos Space Marines p.4
> "The Emperor and his progeny, the Primarchs, stood shoulder to shoulder..." Codex Eye of Terror p.4
> _


OK, I'll buy these as accurate and objective. Unlike the Index Astartes II article, they don't purport to give you information from an "Imperial perspective", but rather as an outsider looking in.



> Again I must say despite my certainty on the matter there were surprisingly few concrete references to the issue. There are plenty of references that heavily imply it but not many that outright state it.


I know, right?


----------

