# Should my Terminators be getting recked by eldar wraithguards with a warlock?



## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Simple question... a friend and I played our first game in about 5 years yesterday and my friends 3 wraithguard and 1 warlock cleaned house with my 5 Terminators.. He used Doom and some Mind power on me twice a turn and in 2 turns I had no Terminators left... Dose this sound right?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

How were your terminators outfitted?


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

if he was shooting - about right, if you were in meele - well, spellz are powerful.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I don't think the outift of the Termies matters. Even with standard Termies, he should wreck them once he gets to attack. 

My question is, was this in shooting or melee? 

In shooting, yes, your termies will probably get destroyed in two turns with doom and mindwar. In melee, you should have rocked him pretty hard core.

First, Doom will help wound you, but you have a 2+ save in melee against the guard and farseer. How did you fail so many saves? (If shooting he by passes that) Second, a warlock cannot cast doom or mindwar. A farseer can cast them both, but only once per turn each. Third, mindwar cannot be cast while in melee. So he shouldnt have used that if in melee.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Well it all started when I deep striked behind him and scatterd 10 away... so he had a round of shots at me. He also had some staff that had stones in it that allowed he to use a 3rd psyk ability even if it has already been used this turn. He did this twice and he also said that the wraithguard wepons were AP2.. so don't we ignore my armor save?


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

oh and with the power fists arnt my attacks (I) 1 so I strike last?


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

So he had Eldrad which is a special char so he can use mindwar twice in one turn. With shooting, yes he would probably kill you in two turns easy. His guns that were ap 2 ignore your save, but you would still get a 5+ save dont forget. Either way, you will probably die in two turns.

In melee, if you had the full 5 terms, you would most likely win. Yes you go last because of the powerfist, but Eldrad would likely kill 1-2 of your terms, the wraithguard wouldn't kill any and then you would probably kill all the wraithguard and maybe Eldrad.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

If he had a Staff he was Eldrad Ulthran - only Storm Shields would give you any hope. Otherwise, largely fair it seems.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Yeah, Eldrad combined with practically anything rapes. Just be glad it wasn't the famous Avatar/Eldrad combo.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sigh. Famous =/= great.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Sigh. Famous =/= great.


In 90% (my opinion on the % of course) of non-tournament level games the Eldrad or Farseer combo with Avatar does equal great.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

As a note:

Eldrad cannot Mind War multiple times per turn, nor can he cast Mind War and Eldritch Storm. Both are worked out as Psychic Shooting attacks, and as Eldrad is not a vehicle or Monstrous Creature, he cannot shoot multiple weapons.

It does sound about right though, if he Doomed you, the Wraithguard hit on 3s and wound on 2s with rerolls. You only get your 5+ Invulnerable save so if you roll badly then you could easily lose 2 of those, another from Mind War, and then Eldrad kills 2 in combat. You would have to really fail at rolling 5+ though.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Sethis said:


> As a note:
> 
> Eldrad cannot Mind War multiple times per turn, nor can he cast Mind War and Eldritch Storm. Both are worked out as Psychic Shooting attacks, and as Eldrad is not a vehicle or Monstrous Creature, he cannot shoot multiple weapons.


I read in his codex were he had some kind of lance with stones that allowed him to use a 3 Psychic power even if its already been used this turn... so cant he use Mindwar twice?

Also we were only playing a small 500pt battle shouldn't this guy coast a lot? He totally raped my Terminators.

He had a Wave Serpent, 8 Direavengers +1 Ex, 3 Wraithguard with the Warlock that he said had the spear and the stones that let him do the 3 Psychic attacks a turn. Dose that sound like 500 pts? I think I might have gotten taken.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

here are some of the pics of "the first game in five years!!!!!"

The first is the general battle feild... the second is the assault I won. The third was my bike squad that destroyed his Waveserpent... and last is the ill fated attack by my Terminators that were whiped out by his wraithlords and warlock... which he was useing in the assault fase.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

sorry to say pal but your friend took you for a ride. First Eldrad like 225 pts or some crap. He would have been half the army. Second that little warlock ain't eldrad, so unless your friend was proxying...yeah. 

Sorry mate your friend played ya for a sucker.


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## ThePublic (Apr 8, 2009)

Why do I see this more and more? It seems like newer guys all feel the need to cheat the old school to make thenselves feel better ( or that is what happens to me at 3 FLGs)


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

A little under 225...but even so. His list adds up to 550-ish, by my count.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Btw nice board man! That looks sweet as hell. 

On a side note. If you will be playing this guy a lot, consider taking Grey Knight Terminators, which will be able to more easily shrug off his psychic assaults.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

This guy has got his rules VERY wrong.
Considering the age of your models, except a few (the Razorback and Wave Serpent notably), I'd say you guys haven't played since late second-ed.
Or at least not bought many new models since then.

Anyway, 2nd ed had VERY different rules, and allowed for a lot of customisation (that I know, never played it, but have looked at the rules), so maybe he just got confused and thought he could take fancy gear.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

[Edited to remove specific points costs, because I'm a dummy and forgot that that rule existed even outside the army list threads!]

631 points, if the Wave Serpent has the weapons he built it with. Even if the Warlock is a proxy for Eldrad and the Serpent has the most basic weapons allowed it's still 571 points. Bear in mind this is with NO equipment or powers or wargear of any kind, apart from what Eldrad comes with.

I wouldn't say your friend is being an idiot, he might just be using an old codex or something. Maybe if you asked to see his army list then you could see where he went wrong? If he can't produce one, then maybe he is being an idiot after all! 

About Eldrads 3-powers-per-turn thing. It does say that he can use 3 powers per turn, including one that he has already used. However it does not say that he can make multiple shooting attacks, and unless something specifically overrides the Rulebook, you must follow all the rules as written in the Rulebook. Specifically, read page 50 under the heading "Psychic shooting attacks".


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Eldrad: 210
> 3 Wraithguard: 105
> Warlock (if he's a different model to Eldrad): 25
> Wave Serpent with Starcannon and Chin cannon: 135
> ...


So, he can Guide two units and Doom another, or various other combinations.

Anyway, why the FUCK would you Doom the target of Wraithguard over Guiding the guard?
The benefit you get from Guiding is far greater than from Doom, except in a few cases (only have a few but REALLY need that 6 to instant-kill, other things shooting at the target, etc.)


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Nice paintz.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> Sigh. Famous =/= great.



Perhaps not, but the Avatrad combo = both famous and great.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Eldrad: 210
> 3 Wraithguard: 105
> Warlock (if he's a different model to Eldrad): 25
> Wave Serpent with Starcannon and Chin cannon: 135
> ...


I was vague to avoid breaking rules regarding posting individual unit costs, Sethis. 

Also, I think the Avatar is trash - therefore no combo involving it, even if that 'combo' is "Move Avatar into Assault range of Gretchin, Assault Gretchin" can be great. On Foot =/= Not Suicide.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Well to clear my friends name... Neither of us have played since 3rd edition and even then I played mostly 2nd. I'm the one that conned him into playing again so he baught some stuff on ebay and got a new codex. This was our fist run through just to kinda feel out the new rules.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Nice paintz.


Thanks!


Arcane said:


> Btw nice board man! That looks sweet as hell.


Thanks! 

Pianting and makeing tables is what I loved most about the game.... I worked in a hobby shop for years and am just recently getting back into it. I figure now that I've made this table and pianted up a 2,000 pt + army I should probubly learn how to play again!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Starship Trooper said:


> Well to clear my friends name... Neither of us have played since 3rd edition and even then I played mostly 2nd. I'm the one that conned him into playing again so he baught some stuff on ebay and got a new codex. This was our fist run through just to kinda feel out the new rules.


Yeah, he probably just got a bit confused then.
Go through your army lists together, make sure everything's alright and you both understand how it works.


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Yeah, he probably just got a bit confused then.
> Go through your army lists together, make sure everything's alright and you both understand how it works.


I really thought we could manage to get through a 500pt game with out any issues but when he started using 3 Psych attacks in a turn and ignoreing my +2 armor saves I had a feeling his points were off.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

My personal guess he didnt cheat;D probably some upgrade on warlock and overal less stuff than it seems.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

And I know they're not playing by 2nd Edition rules, Winterous, because Dire Avengers used to cost 22 points per model! :laugh: Also Wave Serpents didn't exist. In fact Falcons and Fire Prisms only came in very late in 2nd Edition. Imagine Eldar with no Grav tanks! :shok:

Don't worry about making mistakes. Life is a learning process and 40k is no different. I still regularly find myself going "oooh..." when I play against an army with a unit type I've never played against etc etc.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Not _quite_ true about Wave Serpents...although they didn't conventionally exist, no, and the model certainly didn't.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Starship Trooper said:


> I really thought we could manage to get through a 500pt game with out any issues but when he started using 3 Psych attacks in a turn and ignoreing my +2 armor saves I had a feeling his points were off.


It's possible he represented Eldrad but forgot to explain.
That's one of the reasons I always go through the lists with my opponent, just so we know what's actually in their army.



Sethis said:


> And I know they're not playing by 2nd Edition rules, Winterous, because Dire Avengers used to cost 22 points per model! :laugh: Also Wave Serpents didn't exist. In fact Falcons and Fire Prisms only came in very late in 2nd Edition. Imagine Eldar with no Grav tanks! :shok:


I didn't suggest they were, just that maybe they got a bit confused with how the new rules work, because of what they have experience in


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

Yeah... when I played I actually played Eldar... and back then there was no Wave serpent. And there was a whole phase of the turn just for Psychic powers were you actually had cards that you played to represent the power. Oh! and there used to be gravity bombs! They were cool. That and Tyranids were the new kids on the block. Sigh..... oh the good old days.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Starship Trooper said:


> Yeah... when I played I actually played Eldar... and back then there was no Wave serpent. And there was a whole phase of the turn just for Psychic powers were you actually had cards that you played to represent the power. Oh! and there used to be gravity bombs! They were cool. That and Tyranids were the new kids on the block. Sigh..... oh the good old days.


And D-cannon did random effects when they teleported something, like teleporting them several metres under the ground, there was a small earthquake after.
And Orks had a bee catapult.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

And Shuriken Catapults had Sustained fire! :laugh:

My favourite was the Farseer who Spirit Walked like 30" across the battlefield and carved up a tank with his witchblade, and if you kill the ghost, he just disappears!

I should play a game using 2nd Edition rules again, they were fun...

TKE: When did Serpents come in? I can't find them in my 2nd Ed codex, and I only remember the conversion kits coming out for them after the Falcon release at the tail end of 2nd Ed.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

They weren't in the Dex, no, but they were in Epic and, iirc, there was a Citadel Journal version for 40k, though no model existed. Might have almost been 3rd by that point though, I'm a little hazy.

Executioner was the best Eldar psychic power ever. :biggrin:


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> They weren't in the Dex, no, but they were in Epic and, iirc, there was a Citadel Journal version for 40k, though no model existed. Might have almost been 3rd by that point though, I'm a little hazy.
> 
> Executioner was the best Eldar psychic power ever. :biggrin:


It was 3rd. Because thats when I quit playing and I joked with friends at the store I used to work at that they waited to I quite to bring it out.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Wave Serpents were great in Epic because you could fire the bow wave at people. 

Guided D-Cannons where the best thing in 2nd ed, double range auto hitting deathrays are always good. 

Aramoro


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

I seem to remember warp spiders being way better back then too.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Wave Serpents were great in Epic because you could fire the bow wave at people.
> 
> Guided D-Cannons where the best thing in 2nd ed, double range auto hitting deathrays are always good.
> 
> Aramoro


Now they're just gigantic Terminator-molesting grenade launchers.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Starship Trooper said:


> I seem to remember warp spiders being way better back then too.


Oh yeah, their guns were fantastic!
Giant template, and anything...

Fuck it, funding the rules 

*edit*
I SWEAR I have seen them before in our collection, my brother must have done something with the Eldar codex.

Anyway, it was a large flamer template, and anything touched by it had to make a strength test I think.
If they failed the test they died, full stop, and if they passed they were either ensnared or broke the web.
But yeah, if it hurt you at all, you died, no matter how many wounds you have, and no saves allowed.
90% certain on that.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Heavy Flamer Template (larger than a normal flamer).
Anything touched is hit (this was unusual for the time, normally partials were only hit on 4+).
Roll to beat the target's initiative. +1 to the roll if they are totally covered. A 6 always works, or a 5+ if totally under the template.
Models so affected must take an armour save with a -2 modifier or die. Not "take a wound". DIE.

If the model passes it's save, it may not avoid further Death Spinner shots. Just skip straight to the "Make a save or die" part.

41pts per Spider.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Heavy Flamer Template (larger than a normal flamer).
> Anything touched is hit (this was unusual for the time, normally partials were only hit on 4+).
> Roll to beat the target's initiative. +1 to the roll if they are totally covered. A 6 always works, or a 5+ if totally under the template.
> Models so affected must take an armour save with a -2 modifier or die. Not "take a wound". DIE.
> ...


That was it!
That shit was fucked up, you just bind them there and go RAPE BEAM!


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