# Dark Angels: Which side are you on?



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've just read Angels of Darkness for the first time and it totally blew my mind, it pretty much confirmed my suspicions from reading the two Dark Angels Horus Heresy novels and it really altered my opinions on the Dark Angels and it clearly defined to me what the true flaw in their gene seed is. Anyway I was wondering what those who had read the Horus Heresy novels and _Angels of Darkness_ think as well as those who've not read _Angels of Darkness_ but have red the two HH novels.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

As far as Gav Thorpe is concerned (and I've asked him), I like (and prefer) the "Who really knows?" styled ambiguity of which side The Lion was actually one (aka he was a fence sitter). On top of that, that not all of "The Fallen" were truly Chaos worshipers/true renegades either.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

To me the flaw is the inability to trust anyone.

I don't think that the Lion was waiting to see who won. He saw Horus doing his own thing and Guilliman seemingly doing his own thing and didn't want any of either, he did what he thought was right for his father. He was aware if things happening on Caliban but as unable to do anything about it. I don't think he was fully aware of the corruption of the traitors. 

He made a series of decisions that appeared noble, but also left him open to criticism (fighting the Night Lords in an un-winnable crusade and ignoring Guilliman's call). 

Think about the concern of Loken and Qruze in Grey Angel. "Are we doing more harm than good?" Such thoughts don't seem to enter into the Lion's mind or he wouldn't have sent Luther home to start with.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

About half way through Angels of Darkness, I saw where Astelan was going. Mainly because I noticed the same thing in the two other novels. The Lion was paranoid, he was paranoid about everything and it was his paranoia that stopped him from getting involved in the Heresy properly, it's why in the short story The Lion he even considered the Iron Hands potential enemies despite their Primarch dying in the service of the Emperor.

I think the paranoia and what follows like the secrecy etc has kept the Dark Angels from doing their proper duty and that is defending mankind, the whole plot by the Fallen in that story just went to prove it and I'm glad that the Chaplain did what he did at the end.

From everything else I've read it's hard to go against Astelan's view of what happened. I'm not entirely sure about his portrayal of the events that happened prior to the Lion turning up (like the loyalists killing thousands by crashing the battle barge) and I'm pretty sure Luther didn't share Astelan's view of the lion, but I do agree that the Lion's flaw did mess up the entirety of the legion and that his paranoia lead him to failing mankind and the Emperor.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Also consider, in universe, that Astelan was on Caliban.

They have limited knowledge of what goes on with the heresy, hearing whispers and half-truths and they know that the Lion hasn't made contact with Caliban for a good while.

Those that are left behind are even more bitter of the Lion and may even have come to the conclusion that he turned on the Emperor or may be coming to mop them up (like how Perturabo and the Night Haunter sorted their worlds out).

They may see themselves as the heroes saving their world from the survivors of a war that came about because of a great crusade they (or some of them at least) never even wanted a part in.

Maybe :laugh:


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Disclaimer: I have not read any DA heresy novels, so this is entirely speculation - yes that might be surprising, but I don't exactly have extensive access to BL publications.

I'n on the "Jonson was paranoid but loyal side". Yes he was paranoid of almost everyone, but a) that was his nature and b) with the turning of the Legions, and the Dark Angels being the other side of the galaxy to these events, it would be hard to know who to trust.
That and you have to look at Astelan. Firstly, he's not to be trusted as only he has this version of events which suspiciously absolves him of any wrongdoing. And secondly if he's a traitor/tainted by Chaos then he'd be able to decieve others more readily. 

Possibilty - Astelan's Alpha Legion. :shok:

If Jonson really was an opportunist or even traitor, why does the chapter that survives the Fall continue to serve the big E in Jonson's name and have such a hatred for chaos? Tenuous and flawed, I know, but that's my guess.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Disclaimer: I have not read any DA heresy novels, so this is entirely speculation - yes that might be surprising, but I don't exactly have extensive access to BL publications.
> 
> I'n on the "Jonson was paranoid but loyal side". Yes he was paranoid of almost everyone, but a) that was his nature and b) with the turning of the Legions, and the Dark Angels being the other side of the galaxy to these events, it would be hard to know who to trust.
> That and you have to look at Astelan. Firstly, he's not to be trusted as only he has this version of events which suspiciously absolves him of any wrongdoing. And secondly if he's a traitor/tainted by Chaos then he'd be able to decieve others more readily.
> ...


Well Astelan doesn't completely absolve himself of wrongdoing, but you can see why he did what he did, if you take him at his word and those marines who didn't want to accompany luther and the other marines to "supposedly" fight against Horus, did attack and kill them as well as a lot of the Calbanites then it kind of makes sense. Coupled with the fact the Lion lead Terran chapters because he was paranoid of them turning on him and always had a new calbanite chapter close by but didn't tell the terran chapter they where there along with a lot of other things, then he accepts he to could of been paranoid but it was the paranoia brought about by Lion El'Jonson that caused the problems.

If the Lion hadn't decided he'd rather sacrifice thousands of innocents to save 100 marines, if the lion hadn't sent Luther and the Librarian back to Caliban, if he hadn't took to much control of the legion and split Terran and Caliban chapters up, if he hadn't done all that then there wouldn't of been a problem imo, but all that still doesn't forgive the fact he decided to stay away from the fighting to see who would come out on top, which I'm almost 100% sure he did, due to his paranoia and lofty ambitions.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm not sure he wa actually paranoid of everyone (he trusted Perturabo with the artillery units after all), rather an inability to trust anyone else. Given that he grew up on a world that was irretrievably tainted by Chaos and he had seen its effects upon the local fauna, this is somewhat understandable.

Plus the watchers in the dark keep popping up and giving him info; I feel he was torn between his loyalty to Caliban and the big picture of the Imperium and unable to trust anyone; inherited his fathers penchant for secrets possibly?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, there's no doubt he had secrecy and a bit of paranoia, that was the point Astelan tried to make, as soon as he was reunited with the Dark Angels he passed it on and so instead of being the finest legion of the Imperium, they became secret, dark, paranoid suspicious exactly like their Primarch.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Of course with the Inquisition about it's not surprising they keep the Fallen quiet I suppose.

Has there been any fluff about any non Dark Angel finding out about the Fallen btw?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They tend to kill off whoever finds out about them, including a Black Templar strike cruiser I think. Then again they let the Space Wolves walk free when they found out about one.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Wow you'd think someone would miss an entire ship of Black Templars!

I know its unlikely to happen but I would love to see what El'Jonson's reaction to his legion is when he wakes up; whether proud or ashamed


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The Black Templars have asked where it is but the Dark Angels act like nothing has happened.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Can just imagine it; "Brother, have you seen our ship?"

"...........nope........no, no ships here" (cue nervous whistling)

not surprised they let wolves go alive; they are not the most forgiving lol


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If you've read all of the Horesy Heresy novels that include the Dark Angels and the Lion(Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels, Savage Weapons and The Lion), then you will know Jonson is loyal to the Emperor


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> If you've read all of the Horesy Heresy novels that include the Dark Angels and the Lion(Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels, Savage Weapons and The Lion), then you will know Jonson is loyal to the Emperor


Which was one of worst decisions they made. One of most interested Primarchs that people were not so sure on which side he was fighting for after reading Angels of Darkness. Hopefully we get to see a book where his motives might be questioned again.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> If you've read all of the Horesy Heresy novels that include the Dark Angels and the Lion(Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels, Savage Weapons and The Lion), then you will know Jonson is loyal to the Emperor


I don't think that's true, if he was loyal he would of went straight to Terra, instead he contemplated taking charge of the Imperium in the same way Guilliman was doing. The fact he didn't act makes him not loyal but not unloyal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think that's true, if he was loyal he would of went straight to Terra, instead he contemplated taking charge of the Imperium in the same way Guilliman was doing. The fact he didn't act makes him not loyal but not unloyal.


As _Angel_ said, it is hard to doubt the Lion's loyalty to the Emperor after the last few publications.

_Savage Weapons_ justifies his reasons for not returning to Terra.

Also, when did he contemplate taking charge of the Imperium?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

if you go by Astelans acount then he was waitng to see who won, but Astelan was Terran and if i read it right all Terrans were being sent to Caliban as well as those who seemed to agree more with Luthor. 
Nemiel who had been a starch believer in the Lion ended up loosing his head for daring to stand by the words of the Emperor, which i found a little bit wierd seeing as Nemiel was one of those who originally was going to assassinate him. Then defends his law against Librarians at the cost of his life.
I want to know what becomes of Zahariel and the others as he seemed the more interesting character, Do i think the Lion was paranoid...yeah definatly, is he a traitor? this will be an age old arguement that will never end, there was definatly something going on there but what? who knows.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _Angel_ said, it is hard to doubt the Lion's loyalty to the Emperor after the last few publications.
> 
> _Savage Weapons_ justifies his reasons for not returning to Terra.
> 
> Also, when did he contemplate taking charge of the Imperium?


He seems to look at what Guilliman's doing as a bid for power and to me at least he seemed to think if anyone was going to do it, it was him. i don't think Savage Weapons justifies why he didn't return to Terra, he didn't even try to if I remember correctly.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I agree with Angel for the reasons I said earlier in this thread (ironically the same reasons that you disagree - but there is the fun!).

I don't think the Lion had himself in mind as the next Warmaster (although obviously he did covet the position as late as the Isstvan V attack). He saw what Horus had done and he perceived Guilliman as trying to do something similar, both pretenders. That is why he didn't go to Guilliman (which was a bad decision in hindsight). 

It's also apparant that the Lion could not see the end game. He had short-sighted goals. He was good at winning battles but not the wars. He's almost at the opposite end of the scale to Guilliman who was the strategist.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> He seems to look at what Guilliman's doing as a bid for power and to me at least he seemed to think if anyone was going to do it, it was him.


Even though he categorically states that no one but the Emperor is fit to rule? 



Words_of_Truth said:


> i don't think Savage Weapons justifies why he didn't return to Terra, he didn't even try to if I remember correctly.


"We are one of the last loyal Legions left at full strength in the Imperium, and we are alone in the void, seeking to hold the entire kingdom together while all other eyes turn to Terra. Do you think I have no desire to stand with Dorn on the battlements of my father's palace? Do you believe I wish to linger here in the silence of space, piecing together the shards of this shattered empire? *We cannot reach Terra. We tried. We failed. That war is denied to us by the warp's treacherous tides.* But the rest of the galaxy is falling dark, and we may be the only living Legion that bears the Emperor's light out here among the stars."

"You will never reach Terra in time to defend it, brother. The warp will not let you. This crusade will not let you. I will not let you."

"...The hail comes from Guilliman and our cousins within the Thirteenth Legion. *Knowing we have been unable to reach Terra*, it seems the Lord of Ultramar wishes us at his side instead."


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, well I probably remembered it wrong, I just remember having the feeling that the Lion was holding something back, not voicing his entire intentions.


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