# 10,000 year old Traitor Marines?



## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

As the title says, I see many people refering to there being CSM alive today that were alive during the Heresy ~10k years ago. But do people mistakenly assume this means they are 10k years old? I think it was in Soul Hunter (or maybe Blood Gorgons?) that it was mentioned that due to time having different properties in the Eye of Terror where most traitor marines reside, while 10,000 years passed in the rest of the universe, inside the Eye, only a few decades or centuries had passed. Yet I continually see people refer to these CSMs as being extremely experienced and ultimately better warriors than the average Loyalist due to having lived SO long. From what I can tell, the loyalist marines that have lived for Millenia are probably more experienced warriors than many of the traitor marines that were around for the Heresy.

Am I mis-remembering what I read or just plain wrong?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Time is not consistent within the Eye. For some Chaos Astartes 10,000 years may have passed and they therefore may have garnered 10,000 years worth of combat experience. Whilst for others (using _Soul Hunter_ as an example) only a century or so may have passed. But there are also more extremes, for some perhaps only a year or less has passed. Whilst for others perhaps 50,000 years or even longer may have passed, who knows.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Time has no real meaning in the warp so you are right, to a degree.
As time does not flow in the same way in the warp it's also safe to assume that it could just as easily work the other way, there could be CSM with over a hundred thousand years of experience. 
The original SM's were effectively immortal, they could be killed in battle but age would not kill them, therefore they could just keep ticking over, getting better and better at what they do. Add to that the constant infighting between the traitor legions and only the smartest and toughest would survive.
Although it's not shown in actual game terms I would say that the original traitor marines are superior to their modern day equivalents.

Ninja'd by CotE!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There is no way of gauging how old any of the traitor astartes actually are. As you pointed out, time doesn't flow as we know it withing the Eye. The traitors could be anywhere from a young age to well over 10,000 years old. They could emerge from the Eye having to them only been in there for a matter of months since the Heresy or whenever they entered. They could of course exit having spent tens of thousands of years in there.

Edit: Bah, beaten by both CotE and Norm!


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

Ah interesting. So definitely not cut and dry. Certainly leaves a lot of room for artistic license doesn't it...


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

No you're misunderstanding those people. Every CSM that is put on the tabletop or fights in any war against the imperium has a 99% probability of having killed several SM captains during the attack on Terra, killed Rogal Dorn (most likely with no weapons of their own) all while never growing old in the 10,000 years from the HH. They should all have better stats in every category over loyal SMs, have eternal warrior, and every good USR.

:headbutt:

Most of the time, the people making the claims that CSM are all 10k years old tend to just be fanboys for CSM. Similar to how people claim Matt Ward is an Imperial fanboy, they make crazy claims about the CSM faction and just say "HURR THE WARP MAKES THEM LEETZORS DURR."

I would say a good amount of the CSM that date to the Heresy are either dead, ascended, or have spent so much time deep in the warp that they haven't aged more then a few hundred years (if they aged at all).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> No you're misunderstanding those people. Every CSM that is put on the tabletop or fights in any war against the imperium has a 99% probability of having killed several SM captains during the attack on Terra, killed Rogal Dorn (most likely with no weapons of their own) all while never growing old in the 10,000 years from the HH. They should all have better stats in every category over loyal SMs, have eternal warrior, and every good USR.
> 
> :headbutt:
> 
> ...


Ahhh, so that must make you one of those Loyalist Fanboys that get a new SM Codex every year and scream "Duuurrrr, Speece Marines are da best coz thez da good guyz!!!" Even tho Chaos Marines live in way more hostile conditions than their counter parts, and the sad fact is Chaos Gifted Marines trump joe shmoe Marine. Sorry.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow, this thread got hostile quick!

CSM being over 10k years old isn't fanboyism it's what's written in the fluff, nothing to do with Twat Ward's wet dreams, it's standard established fluff that's been around since the CSM's.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Wow, this thread got hostile quick!
> 
> CSM being over 10k years old isn't fanboyism it's what's written in the fluff, nothing to do with Twat Ward's wet dreams, it's standard established fluff that's been around since the CSM's.


I just get annoyed when catered too players try to talk smack to CSM players who have to deal with a single crappy codex while they get BTs, DAs, BAs, SWs, GKs, and SMs. Get over it people, some of us can only afford to buy one army and sorry it happens to be CSM and their fluff (like SWs) is awsome.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Well as been said time flows different in the warp a csm could be only 500 yrs old real space time, but cause of the warp 5,000 yrs may have passed since the csm turned traitor and went to the EoT, but we know that most csm have had far more combat experience that most space marines, and there will be those that have had 10,000 yrs worth of experience.
It is in the fluff that those few in the traitor legions will be 10,000 yrs old.
Even a 200 yr old chaos marine my have the experience of 10,000yrs of combat. 
One example could be Kharn the betrayer, because of Khorne, i bet Kharn is going to be 10,000 yrs old, same with most of the SC in the chaos dex. 

And so its nothing to do with chaos fanboyism, when its in fluff. 
I wouldnt put it past some csm champions to be able to put down even Calgar, i would most certainly bet say a dark apostle could best most space marine heroes.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

In the first Word Bearers books nearly all of them seem to be veterans of the Heresy and thus 10,000 years old, it's mentioned that for them only centuries have passed.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Cmooooooon use your imagination - we shouldnt be having an argument over whether SM or CSM are better. On any view they are roughly comparable.

True that many CSM, taking into account the obscurities of warp time flow, have more years under their belt, and hence could be considered 'better', but who says? A fresh mind is often the keenest in sport at least, not too long a bow to draw that in battle an old mind actually might actually be a bad thing.

Of course experience counts for much, and then there are the chaos superpowers that warp-slaves tend to acquire over time. Sure, that must make them powerful in combat. But perhaps those chaos powers and mutations might backfire once every so often. Perhaps an old, experienced warrrior encounters blinding hubris which causes him to fail. Perhaps bad habits become ingrained, or aged arrogance denies the ability to improve, remedy and address poor fighting techniques.

Im just saying, use your imagination. Number of years fighting isnt always the be all and end all.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Ahhh, so that must make you one of those Loyalist Fanboys that get a new SM Codex every year and scream "Duuurrrr, Speece Marines are da best coz thez da good guyz!!!" Even tho Chaos Marines live in way more hostile conditions than their counter parts, and the sad fact is Chaos Gifted Marines trump joe shmoe Marine. Sorry.


And I would never make that argument. Personally I think it comes down to the individual SM and CSM. I don't think a sweeping generalization of the powers of either force would be correct.



normtheunsavoury said:


> Wow, this thread got hostile quick!
> 
> CSM being over 10k years old isn't fanboyism it's what's written in the fluff, nothing to do with Twat Ward's wet dreams, it's standard established fluff that's been around since the CSM's.


My argument and my point were towards the idea that ALL CSM are 10,000 year old veterans of the heresy. We see plenty of threads about the CSM where people make claims that they are "10,000 year old veterans," yet it is known that plenty of CSM have been killed over the years, have ascended to the ranks of Deamonhood, or had their bodies warped to the point they would be more deamon then man. Then theres the unknown number of how many SM chapters have turned to chaos in the 10,000 years from the heresy and the newly created members of certain traitor legions (like Hansou from the IW).

Now I never disputed the idea that there are SOME CSM who are 10,000+ years old. I just don't agree with the idea that the vast majority of CSM are over 2,000 years old of real space time. Hell 2,000+ years in a brutal place like the warp would kill pretty much all but the strongest, who would most likely go on to become Chaos Lords. And we know there are only a small number of them running around.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

At no point has anyone said in this thread that all CSM are 10K years old or more, the question was 'Could it be possible'.
Rather than start moaning about fanboyism and then trying to defend Twat Ward it would have been far easier to just say 'yeah, it's possible but I doubt there are many left after such a long time'.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, very much doubt that any of them are that old. Time does not behave in the same manor in the warp that it does in real space. Time passing here does not necessarily mean passage of time there.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Darkoan said:


> Cmooooooon use your imagination - we shouldnt be having an argument over whether SM or CSM are better. On any view they are roughly comparable.
> 
> True that many CSM, taking into account the obscurities of warp time flow, have more years under their belt, and hence could be considered 'better', but who says? A fresh mind is often the keenest in sport at least, not too long a bow to draw that in battle an old mind actually might actually be a bad thing.
> 
> ...


That may well be true for a normal human, but were talking about astartes they only get better over time and to say csm are roughly comparable is only true for certain amount of renegades and large majority are vastly more experienced then there loyalist counter parts even in the fluff we see this.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

If a chaos marine is 10,000 years old, I expect him to be a daemon prince, a spawn, dead or a chaos lord. I mean seriously what have you been doing all this time if your still a regular marine? Having fun time with Slaanesh?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

If the original question and subsequant posts are trying to make the point that CSM being 10k in warp makes them more powerful and effective in combat then I agree it might do. Also as 30k Legions they were more powerful any way.

Also I believe that if any of the Chaos Legions were to meet their pre heresy counterparts on equal terms of weaponry and numbers the Pre - Heresy Legions would split their sides laughing at how pathetic they have become.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> If a chaos marine is 10,000 years old, I expect him to be a daemon prince, a spawn, dead or a chaos lord. I mean seriously what have you been doing all this time if your still a regular marine? Having fun time with Slaanesh?


Well...to us its 10,000 years but to them its much much shorter, because of the way time flows in the eye of terror. And there may be some truth in the slaanesh thing too...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> Well...to us its 10,000 years but to them its much much shorter, because of the way time flows in the eye of terror.


Not necessarily, it's just as likely to work the other way. 
If time in the warp always runs more slowly, it would imply that there are laws governing time in the warp, by the very nature of the warp this cannot be possible. 
The laws of physics don't apply in the warp, the blink of an eye could be an eternity there, whereas its also possible that the last 10K years have passed in a few seconds.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

> Also I believe that if any of the Chaos Legions were to meet their pre heresy counterparts on equal terms of weaponry and numbers the Pre - Heresy Legions would split their sides laughing at how pathetic they have become.


That might be true - in some cases! The pre-heresy Legion might also split their sides because they become targets for some unexplainable Warp-powers gained in the Eye. I'd like to think that some have become deadlier (Death Guard?) while some have degenerated (Emperor's Children, maybe Thousand Sons).


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

One argument against the shortening of the experience for CSM's is the constant engagement between the CSMs and the SMs. Even if all the down time between the Black Crusades disappears, you're still looking at thousands of years in Imperium time. As well, the contact between the CSMs and their followers in Imperium time doesn't seem to slack off or disappear, so I would say that a good number of them probably have been creeping around since the time of the HH... assuming they can even survive all the infighting that long.

What I don't see is the CSMs actually developing with their age... even in the real world there's a big difference between building years of experience and repeating one year of experience over and over again. Most CSMs aren't very sophisticated in their tactics and strategies, which also seemed to have stopped developing around the HH. Even a thousand years is an eternity in which to figure out how to stuff and break your enemies.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Neither side of this argument is mutually exclusive from the other.

"Soul Hunter" explicitly qualifies that some Chaos Space Marines are *technically* more than ten thousand years old even though they have only registered a century or so of experience/time since the Heresy.

"Storm of Iron", on the other hand, explicitly qualifies that some Chaos Space Marines ARE actually ten thousand years old or older since the Heresy. Forrix's monumental ennui and statements in regards to not actually having fought in millennia would have been trite and melodramatic if, in fact, he had only skipped out on combat for a few *actual* years.

Both stories go perfectly in line with the stated concept that time in the Warp is a relative, chaotic, and undependable thing.

Neither story takes away from the plausibility of a ten thousand year-old Traitor Legionnaire being equal to, better, or less skilled than a Loyalist Astartes. Some might be insane enough that their progression has been stunted (Cult Marines, for instance). Others might rely on Daemonic possession and thus might not even utilize their own skill set while fighting (Burias, the Icon Bearer from the Word Bearers trilogy). Still others might just not give a damn about what they're doing at any given century (Forrix, from "Storm of Iron"). Or perhaps they gave themselves over to some other form of warfare (e.g., Obliterators) altogether.

At the end of the day, I agree that actual, no-kidding, ten thousand year-old Traitors will be a rarity--the exception to the rule. But I don't think they're an impossible concept.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

*Ahriman*

I'm still fairly new to this (about two months), but I finished the Blood Ravens omnibus a couple of weeks ago. Isn't Ahriman of the Thousand Sons over 10,000 years old? Or does he not count since he's a Librarian, er, Sorcerer?


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## steampunktau (Aug 12, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Time is not consistent within the Eye. For some Chaos Astartes 10,000 years may have passed and they therefore may have garnered 10,000 years worth of combat experience. Whilst for others (using _Soul Hunter_ as an example) only a century or so may have passed. But there are also more extremes, for some perhaps only a year or less has passed. Whilst for others perhaps 50,000 years or even longer may have passed, who knows.


If this is the case, then wouldn't we see a LOT more CSM attacks on the regular universe?

Thats like, if the CSM wait one year between each attack (which is an insanely long time to wait IMO), then they'd still be striking out from the warp like five minutes after they go back in to recuperate and reequip, due to time passing slower in the warp.

Another point that someone brought up was that time passes differently for everyone in the warp. If this is the case, how can legions maintain coherency? If every marine is experiencing time at a different rate, then while in the warp it would be impossible to remain organized.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

steampunktau said:


> If this is the case, then wouldn't we see a LOT more CSM attacks on the regular universe?
> 
> Thats like, if the CSM wait one year between each attack (which is an insanely long time to wait IMO), then they'd still be striking out from the warp like five minutes after they go back in to recuperate and reequip, due to time passing slower in the warp.


Time doesn't pass slower in the Eye, it can do, but does not always consistently. 

It should also be taken into account that the Chaos Legions fight amongst themselves much more than they engage the Imperium.



steampunktau said:


> Another point that someone brought up was that time passes differently for everyone in the warp. If this is the case, how can legions maintain coherency? If every marine is experiencing time at a different rate, then while in the warp it would be impossible to remain organized.


Were talking about the comparison between the passage of time within the Eye compared to in the material universe, in which case (as I said) comparatively time is not consistent at all. However you do have a point, within the Eye the rules of physics are blended with the nature of the warp, essentially enforcing utter inconsistency on space and time. Within the warp itself, time is utterly meaningless and does not exist as a concept. But within the Eye, reality and the laws of physics do hold some sway. 

In regards to the Legions, generally speaking the Chaos Legions are not cohesive entities. They consist of numerous warbands, each led by different individuals. In some cases (the Black Legion and Word Bearers being prominent examples) all dedicated Warbands owe allegience to the head of the Legion (Abaddon and the Dark Council respectively), but the warbands generally strike out of their own and are not centralised organisations. It would be implausable for the Chaos Legions to attempt to maintain an unified and central organisational structure, one of the primary reasons being the nature of their place of refuge. And thats aside from the fact that the Chaos Astartes are selfish and opporutnistic individuals, further making cohesion implausable.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Isnt there a 10,000 year old Salamander found in one of Nick Kymes books?


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> If a chaos marine is 10,000 years old, I expect him to be a daemon prince, a spawn, dead or a chaos lord. I mean seriously what have you been doing all this time if your still a regular marine? Having fun time with Slaanesh?


Among the fallen Marines that are 10k years old or more, I'm sure many are dead, and many more are exactly that: Princes, Lords or Spawn.
Others may have lost material cohesion and faded out of existance and become part of the Warp. And some are probably, in fact, having fun time with Slaanesh. (Who wouldn't?  )
There are also probably myriad new recruits that have recieved less than excellent training, given the lack of order and leadership, and are probably not as good as their loyalist counterparts. Also, as has been previously stated, time in the Warp, and by extension the Eye, is non-linear and not really connected to time in "real" space. Therefore it's possible that even two CSM's that both fought in the Heresy could be fighting alongside each other, and one has only a dozen decades of experience under his belt, while the other has seen ten millenia _or more_ of constant warfare. Even stranger, the first marine may look like a grizzled old veteran, while the second could look like he did back when he was a Scout.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Isnt there a 10,000 year old Salamander found in one of Nick Kymes books?


 
yeahws ust thinking that, they find that dude who is still alive and he hasn't been in the warp, although i think i remember reading that all his joints were seized up and he was in no fit shape so the apothecary wasted him.


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

I would say Traitor marines are definitely a lot more skilled than the loyalists now. I just don't see how they could possibly be better. The traitors were there with their primarchs and have combat experience with the biggest war ever.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

While it seems logical that traitor marines would on average be better than loyalist marines, there are many considerations: As has been pointed out before in this thread, CSMs infight, a lot. Also, many traitor legions have lost the ability to develop and enhance their weaponry, armor and vehicles, so that much of the equipment and tanks they use are outdated and wearing out. Also, if time does pass faster for a legion in the EoT, their armoury contents would be even more out of date when they leave the EoT to engage the enemy. Another consideration is that while chaos "gifts" are generally consdiered to enhance the warrior, some mutations would definitely have a negative effect on performance on the battlefield (that infested insect hive on your side, which Nurgle considers to be one of his best gifts to bestow on his faithful servants, gets in the way of swinging your sword..). And, as has already been discussed in this thread, a traitor marine that spends 2000 Terran years in the Eye of Terror may not actually spend 2000 years in training and combat due to the unpredicatable effects on time in the Eye, it may be 200 years, or 2 years, while a loyalist marine would spend the full 2000 years training and fighting. I guess that argument goes both ways, but from what I see in fluff, it generally seems that while 10,000 years have passed since the Heresy, the traitor marines that spent that time in the eye have not generally had even close to 10,000 years pass for them. So while time can pass both faster and slower in the eye, it seems more often than not when there is reference to it in fluff, that time has passed faster in the EoT.


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## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

Ok, so due to the time warping properties of the Eye of Terror, the Chaos Space Marines are not necessarily ten thousand years old biologically.

But how did Abaddon manage to muster the numbers for so many Black Crusades then?

8o


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

What do numbers have to do with age?

Many of the original legions are still capable of recruiting, although generally at a slower rate, and some have even found other ways to make marines. That combined with the constant influx of new renegades means that Abaddon will never be short on numbers.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> Ok, so due to the time warping properties of the Eye of Terror, the Chaos Space Marines are not necessarily ten thousand years old biologically.
> 
> But how did Abaddon manage to muster the numbers for so many Black Crusades then?
> 
> 8o


Chaos marines recruit, clone, use Fabius Bile's genetic chop shop, used some sort of daemon womb* thingies in "Dead sky black sun", are joined by renegade marines and probably some other things. They steal gene seed if they can I guess. Anything that works. They're also not restricted by any sort of loyalist rules on the size of their armies.

*Churned out new chaos marines with quite a pace with that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

vipertaja said:


> Chaos marines recruit, clone, use Fabius Bile's genetic chop shop, used some sort of daemon womb* thingies in "Dead sky black sun", are joined by renegade marines and probably some other things. They steal gene seed if they can I guess. Anything that works. They're also not restricted by any sort of loyalist rules on the size of their armies.
> 
> *Churned out new chaos marines with quite a pace with that.


Exactly, espicialy with the creative Unflesh way of making Iron Warriors. That book was sick.


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