# Space Marine Chapter Size.



## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I have been trying to find out somewhere that lists the ‘true’ size of a codex chapter. 
But who drives the Tanks, Transports, and Flyers… or do they not count?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Uveron said:


> I have been trying to find out somewhere that lists the ‘true’ size of a codex chapter.
> But who drives the Tanks, Transports, and Flyers… or do they not count?


Space/Tech Marines do, that being said each chapter have few of these.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Depending on chapter, but generally drivers are pulled from reserve and scout companies. 
Some vehicles can operate on their own such as Land Raiders and Thunderhawks with support of techmarine from a different location. Some vehicles like land speeders can belong to a company like Ravenwing where all the drivers will be from that company.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

In the SM codex it states under the Chronus special character entry that Space Marines are assigned to the armory and they drive these vehicles.

Whether these Space Marines simply wear an extra hat and drive the vehicles or they're actually withdrawn from their respective Companies is unclear.

I personally edge towards the latter, since the true armored fighting vehicles of the Chapter (Land Raiders, Predators, Whirlwinds, ect) are not attached permamently to any Company, but are rather assigned on a on-need basis.

Keep in mind that Assault Squads will man the landspeedeers and every squad outside of the 10th Company have their own Rhino transports. I assume they themselves man it.

On a side note, the 5th edition of Chronus's entry states that 50 brothers are attached to the armory.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Looking at the Chapter in a Box, and by my count it would take 127 marines to man all the vehicles of the chapter. (Not to mention the ships) 

So is it safe to presume that we have basically another company (or two) in many chapters that is the armory?


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Uveron said:


> Looking at the Chapter in a Box, and by my count it would take 127 marines to man all the vehicles of the chapter. (Not to mention the ships)
> 
> So is it safe to presume that we have basically another company (or two) in many chapters that is the armory?


Well none of the space ships are actually piloted by the marines, they all are piloted by "normal" humans. Rhinos could be driven by some advanced servitors. 
Also its common knowledge that its not 1000 Marines it's more like 1300.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Stormxlr said:


> Also its common knowledge that its not 1000 Marines it's more like 1300.


Source?


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Stormxlr said:


> Well none of the space ships are actually piloted by the marines, they all are piloted by "normal" humans. Rhinos could be driven by some advanced servitors.
> Also its common knowledge that its not 1000 Marines it's more like 1300.


Source please? Thats kinda the root of my question. 

Or is it a disjointed part of the fluff.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

hailene said:


> Source?





Uveron said:


> Source please? Thats kinda the root of my question.
> 
> Or is it a disjointed part of the fluff.


Well the fluff always states that there are exactly 100 marines per 10 companies. However that simply cant be true. It is the same as they say there were exactly 300 spartans at the battle of Thermopylae. While it is different, the analogy applies. 

Space Marine chapters simply *have* to have more than 1000 marines, thats not counting the Librarium, Techmarines, Chaplaincy, HQs and other sub organizations with in a chapter. The "1000 space marines" is a thing that sounds cool on paper and rough standard that chapters should follow, same as Codex Astartes, is an outline of what space marine command structure should be like after the second founding. 

The need to have more than 1k, is that battle losses need to be replenished with in moments notice. While reserve companies are there to boost numbers of battle companies, who boosts numbers of reserve companies? Scout company? They are already a battle trained soldiers who are in the waiting list to be old/trained enough to don their armor. 

While out of 10 companies "maybe" at least 9 maintain 100 marines per company ~ more or less. Scout company should have quite a bit more than that, and thats not counting Initiates who are still going through the training and implantation as they dont count as "battle brothers". 

Also there are such things as Veteran squads. While in most cases such as Ultramarines, Veterans are part of 1st company for some such as Dark Angels, Veteran squads dont have to be part of the 1st company as it requires to be part of the Inner Circle, so they remain a part of their old companies, while technically being outside of 100 battle brothers rule. 

Now if you count all other organizations with in a chapter, the number of marines jumps up by at least 100 to 200 marines. Also there are marines who are partaking in training in Chaplaincy,Librarium, studying on Mars or recovering from wounds.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

As with most fluff in 40k it is open to debate, the way Oldman sees it and which I believe makes sense is that spacemarine chapter has a deployable boots on the ground strenght of 1000 marines, which does not include support staff such as drivers pilots etc. 

Now some folk will get extreme nerd rage and qoute all sorts canon but I think this is the most logical answer and that in real terms a msrine chapter counting pilots tech marines drivers etc would be 2000 all in. The main thing with the fluff is it is always subject to change is never consistant but best of all it is how you like it!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Stormxlr said:


> The need to have more than 1k, is that battle losses need to be replenished with in moments notice.


Oh, that's easy. 

_Chapters are chronically short of 1000 marines_.

That's how they roll.



Stormxlr said:


> While reserve companies are there to boost numbers of battle companies, who boosts numbers of reserve companies?


As you said, they draw recruits and replacements from the 10th Company.



Stormxlr said:


> Scout company should have quite a bit more than that


From what I've read throughout the BL, the scout company rarely fills out to their full 100. Notably the Exorcists Chapter has more than 100 scouts do to their unorthodox method of daemonic possession, but, hey, they have 12 Companies, anyway, so they're not a Codex Chapter.



Stormxlr said:


> , Veteran squads dont have to be part of the 1st company as it requires to be part of the Inner Circle


 Source?

Members of the First Company are often seconded to other Companies or operations on a on-need basis.

I'd like to see the source that says that veterans-outside-the-First-Company-seconded-to-other-Companies-are-outside-the-proscribed-100-man-organizational-list.

So, yeah, still waiting for that definitive source that states it's common for Space Marine Chapters to have 1300 battlebrothers.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Even if you just peruse the chapter organization section in the new Space Marine codex, the 9 battle companies of the Ultramarines are all manned at 100 marines (plus a handful of dreadnoughts and captains). They don't bother listing the number of bodies in the 10th company, and between all of the command structure (Command, Techmarines, Librarians, Apothecaries, and Chaplains) there are about 100 or so marines that are not part of the 10x100 structure of the codex.

It's also pretty well established in all the books that each company shall be 10x10 squads at "full fighting strength"...this often means that squads go in at lesser strength or that some savvy chapters might maintain reserve marines attached to a company that are not part of the companies "fighting strength".

So while there is no official statement I can find that says most chapters are 1200-1300 marines, it seems clear that the size of a typical chapter could easily fluctuate from as low as 600 to as high as 1300 marines depending upon the chapters current deployment, attrition, and quality of it's recruiting worlds.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Unless you are a smurf, or one of their most zealous descendants, most chapters only pays lip service to the Codex Astartes. Or ignoring it wholly, like many others. Just look at the Black Templars, speculated to be at 7000+


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## Ultramarine (Mar 21, 2014)

"The Codex states that a Space Marine Chapter should be split into 10 companies of 100 Marines each, plus a Space Marine Captain, Apothecary, Company Standard and Chaplain for each company.

Existing outside the Company level organisation, each chapter has an Armoury consisting of the chapter's Techmarines and tanks, a Librarium consisting of the Chapter's Librarians, a Chapter Space Marine Fleet and the Chapter Master, plus various headquarters staff and the Chapter's servitors and human serfs." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

So in a sense based on this information I'd say there are roughly 1050 Astartes in a chapter not counting serfs, servitors and other Auxilla. That's just my two cents though.


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.

I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available. If I was pushed, I would say anywhere between 1000 and 1500 for full chapter strength.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Logaan said:


> I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.


Which would prevent the ten squads of ten men malarkey, as by having captains etc you then exceed the proscribed 1000 Marines.
Isn't the Codex fun? :laugh:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Logaan said:


> I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines. As mentioned above, unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.
> 
> I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available. If I was pushed, I would say anywhere between 1000 and 1500 for full chapter strength.


'_The "Immortals" (from the Greek Ἀθάνατοι, sometimes "Ten Thousand Immortals" or "Persian Immortals") was the name given by Herodotus to an elite force of soldiers who fought for the Achaemenid Empire. This force performed the dual roles of both Imperial Guard and standing army during the Persian Empire's expansion period and during the Greco-Persian Wars. Its Persian name may have been Anûšiya ('companions' perhaps confused with Anauša 'immortals' from an- 'non' + auša 'death').[1] The force consisted mainly of Persians but also included Medes and Elamites.[2]

Herodotus describes the 'Immortals' as being heavy infantry, led by Hydarnes, that *were kept constantly at a strength of exactly 10,000 men*. He claimed that the unit's name stemmed from the custom that every killed, seriously wounded, or sick member was immediately replaced with a new one, maintaining the numbers and cohesion of the unit.[3]
This elite corps is only called the 'Immortals' in sources based on Herodotus. There is evidence of the existence of a permanent corps from Persian sources, which provided a backbone for the tribal levies who made up the bulk of the Achaemenid armies. These do not however record the name of "Immortals".[1] "Probably, Herodotus' informant has confused the name Anûšiya ('companions') with Anauša ('Immortals')."[1]_'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortals_(Persian_Empire)


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

As said previously, the attached vindicators, predators and land speeders etc. are manned by members of the reserve assault and devastator companies. These companies are almost never fielded as single units, because their purpose is to support the battle companies. That gives us 400 marines to fill the ancillary roles within the various battle companies. 

While an individual company's strength might be well over 100 with the attachment of vehicle crews and supplementary assault and dev squads, I don't think any chapter would ever manage to get over 1000 marines.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Logaan said:


> I think it would be nigh on impossible for a chapter to contain exactly spot on 1000 marines... unless the chapter was absolutely dedicated to the Codex Astartes, this number would need to fluctuate to incorporate battle losses, crippling injuries, auxiliaries, support, med-staff etc.
> 
> I would even say that rigidly conforming to the 1000 marine doctrine would be a disadvantage in many respects. Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available.


Hmmmmmmm... if you screamed that at eardrum splitting levels and destroyed several buildings in the near vicinity I think you've captured Russ's or Dorn's side of the whole initial Codex discussion.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Don't a few chapters use serfs in combat support roles? Such as pilots and drivers when they won't be a liability.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Logaan said:


> Chapters need to be flexible to adapt to any task/mission/campaign. Limiting the number to 1000 could limit the tactical options available.


Chapters rarely field their entire strength for a single campaign. Often not for centuries and sometimes for millennia. 

Plus the breaking down into Chapters was more of a strategic move than a tactical one.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Well chapter master Oldman interpretates the codex as thus: x10 deployable companies not including support staff. If it was a 1000 marines to fight on the ground, fly air support, man spaceships drive a.f.vs etc then space marines would be extremely limited in their scope of their operations and no way near able to operate in the manner they do in the fluff generally. I think my view the most reasonable, suppose it depends how you read into the fluff and which authors you like


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> If it was a 1000 marines to fight on the ground, fly air support, man spaceships drive a.f.vs etc then space marines would be extremely limited in their scope of their operations and no way near able to operate in the manner they do in the fluff generally.


How so? Most times (post-heresy) we see very limited numbers of Space Marines. Sometimes just a single marine, sometimes a squad, maybe a company. Rarely multiple companies.

How are they limited with "just" 1000 marines when we almost never see a Chapter field 1000 marines, much less 1300+ marines in a single campaign.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I'm talking all in numbers, if you are using guys out of that pool of 1000 to drive fly man the space ships, man heavy vehicles you leave yourself quite short in my opinion and thus limit tactical capability, why show 10 companies in a chapter if you cannot use 10 companies.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> if you are using guys out of that pool of 1000 to drive fly man the space ships, man heavy vehicles you leave yourself quite short in my opinion and thus limit tactical capability


I don't even...look:

Say you have a 1000-man Chapter, right? You take 3 of those guys and you put them in a Predator. What do you have? A Chapter of 997 men? No. You _still_ have a Chapter of 1000 men, just three of them are manning a Predator tank.

You are not "losing" force. You're redistributing them.

That's akin to saying that the First Company "loses" men when they put on Terminator armor. They don't. They just have different equipment.

Like Land Speeders for Assault Squads. They're specially trained to use them. If you place a Battle Company's assault marines into land spiders, did you "lose" your assault marines? No, no, no.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's pretty wasteful IMO to have a Space Marine, designed to wage war on foot and alongside his brothers after being created via an extremely time and resource demanding process, driving a machine that a servitor/unaugmented human could handle just as efficiently save for the mental stress.

ADB having Septimus pilot the Night Lords ships was a nice touch but then again it was mostly out of necessity more so than artistic opinion.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Well I think you are losing out if you have 10 companies but cannot fully deploy them because you are using those same guys for support, that is just me, the codex says you get 10 companies and I like to think it is 10 boots on the ground companies


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's pretty wasteful IMO to have a Space Marine, designed to wage war on foot and alongside his brothers after being created via an extremely time and resource demanding process, driving a machine that a servitor/unaugmented human could handle just as efficiently save for the mental stress.


It is a bit wasteful. Though I recall reading, just recently, about why they do it. But I can't find it for the life of me. I stumbled upon it a couple days ago looking up something for another thread.

I have to get running to practice soon, but I'll try to look for it when I get back later tonight.



Malus Darkblade said:


> ADB having Septimus pilot the Night Lords ships was a nice touch but then again it was mostly out of necessity more so than artistic opinion.


It should be noted that it was also written Septimus would never be able to fly a Thunderhawk with the same skill as a true Astartes pilot. I believe in _Soul Hunter_.

Perhaps that's one reason why they entrust their vehicles to only Astartes?



Oldman78 said:


> Well I think you are losing out if you have 10 companies but cannot fully deploy them because you are using those same guys for support,


How are they not deployed? They ARE deployed, in vehicles.

If a mission calls for armored vehicles, then they use armored vehicles. It's not as if they lose all their training and experience as Space Marines when they decide to hop into a vehicle. If the mission requires them to be fielded as infantry, they can still be used, at a later time, as infantry.

If the mission calls for them to disembark and fight hand to hand, I can only imagine they are more than capable of doing so.

Are squads "lost" when Space Marines are placed in Devastator squads? They're "support" after all, no?



Oldman78 said:


> I like to think it is 10 boots on the ground companies


That's your particular opinion. I would love to see some sources to back it up. Otherwise it just remains that: a baseless opinion.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> It should be noted that it was also written Septimus would never be able to fly a Thunderhawk with the same skill as a true Astartes pilot. I believe in _Soul Hunter_.
> 
> Perhaps that's one reason why they entrust their vehicles to only Astartes?


It's also stated that Septimus was taught how to fly one via a painful hypno-indoctrination program. So I feel that were he trained in the same manner the Astartes were then he wouldn't have said that.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

The days of 1,000 foot slogging Astates seen in mass are over, some 9,000 years. A chapter is not likely to field even a 100 men in one engagement unless it is the most dire of dire circumstance. The Codex is a guide that the vast majority of Chapters follow to some degree. Only a few like the Space Wolves and Black Templar's, ignore it to a large degree. Even divergent chapters like the Raven Guard and White Scars, use most of the structure given in the Codex, 10 companies of 100 Astates. Those Chapters who don't have the 10 companies might comply with the 1,000 by adjusting their Company sizes. If your chapter was founded after the 2nd, then i don't see any reason that a chapter would break this rule. If they went over the golden number they would invite a level of interest that would not be healthy for them from the =][=. 

This number of 1,000 almost caused a 2nd civil war. The Ultra's and the Fists, fired shots over this. I don't think a chapter could get away with flaunting this rule with out a really good reason. In my mind most chapter company's 2-9, would maintain a 95% fighting strength in the good times. The 1st and the 10 probably fluctuate south of 100%. Add to this the "headquarters staff, Command , Armory, Apothecary, Librarius, Reclusiam. I am guessing that the Ultras are on the high side of the average with 103. Add that all up and i get ~ 1,000 in the good times, for a well liked and treated chapter. The drivers and pilots are drawn from a pool filled by the Company in question, and reserves as needed. This could be a squad in the battle company selected by the captain/ tradition to drive. Or perhaps the chapter gives the honor to the reserve companies. Neither option should require the chapter to need more then 1,000.

If a chapters numbers exceed 1000 by more then a 100 i think that raises a red flag.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So I feel that were he trained in the same manner the Astartes were then he wouldn't have said that.


There's a matter of interpretation...but I think the emphasis is on true _Astartes_ pilot. Why not simply say "a true pilot" if anyone could do it, with sufficient training? ADB was specific and stated that a "true Astartes pilot".

And, I mean, furthermore, it's true that a Space Marine would make a better pilot. They have better reflexes, able to endure additional g-forces, and their Lyman ears prevent them from getting motion sick or dizzy from maneuvers. 

I think it's pretty easy to assume that an Astartes would make a better pilot than an unaugmented human.

Whether or not it's worthwhile to spend a precious Space Marine as a pilot...

Though do keep in mind that a Thunderhawk pilot is carrying 32 Space Marines (himself, a co-pilot, and the 30 marines in the hold). Anything to maximize their chances of success may be worth it.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

hailene said:


> That's your particular opinion. I would love to see some sources to back it up. Otherwise it just remains that: a baseless opinion.


Chill out Hailene, I never said 10 boots on the ground companies was a FACT, I just said that is how I like to imagine it, lower the blood pressure there


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> Chill out Hailene, I never said 10 boots on the ground companies was a FACT, I just said that is how I like to imagine it, lower the blood pressure there


I'm not getting heated. My apologies if I came across that way.

Just saying, you can feel all you want. But we're all part of a modern, enlightened society, right ? We need to bring facts and sources to the table to have a real discussion.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

hailene said:


> I'm not getting heated. My apologies if I came across that way.
> 
> Just saying, you can feel all you want. But we're all part of a modern, enlightened society, right ? We need to bring facts and sources to the table to have a real discussion.



My bad, I'm probably being too hormotional! But I'm not disputing the codex, fluff wise I just think it better the way I said it!! Hey look at my avatar, it is a big clue as to why I think my vision of the 40k millenium is better,


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## Inquisitor_ball (May 12, 2008)

The classic image "Strategic disposition of the Ultramarines chapter ( back of the 3rd ed codex) has a depleted Ultramarines chapter with more then a thousand marines. 

Its an official source -


So if the Ultramarines have over a thousand marines when under strength then the thousand marines is a straight up fallacy.


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## Inquisitor_ball (May 12, 2008)

The classic image "Strategic disposition of the Ultramarines chapter" ( back of the 3rd edition codex IIRC) has a depleted Ultramarines chapter with more then a thousand marines. 

Its an official source -


So if the Ultramarines have over a thousand marines when under strength then the thousand marines is a straight up fallacy.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rejoice! We have received answers.

Imperial Armour II, second edition has answered where the marines that man vehicles comes from. Do keep in mind that most non-transport vehicles (Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, ect.) are linked to the central armory and not attached to any specific Company.

"The crews for a Chapter's armoured vehicles comprise solely of Space Marines, many assigned as required from the *Tactical squads of the Chapter's 6th and 7th Companies.*"

As to why Space Marines may be assigned to vehicles in the first place (as opposed to normal humans or servitors):

"All Space Marine vehicles are fitted with spinal interfaces that link with the [Space Marine's] body by plugging into his power armour and black carapace. This allows them to become part of the vehicle, granting intuitive communion with its controls and systems."


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Between The Thousandth Cut and hailene, we have some fairly solid answers, I think. 

Where Chapter deployment is concerned, it's impossible to arrive at a definite answer. Some Chapters, such as the Iron Snakes of Ithaka, are sworn to protect vast spans of Imperial space. We've seen in the novel _Brothers of the Snake_ that their mission forces them to send out solitary battle-brothers, squads, and ad-hoc formations ranging from 50 Space Marines to hundreds of their Chapter's warriors. Other Chapters do still, even to the waning days of the 41st millennium, deploy in full force whenever possible. My guess is that this is mostly true where Crusading Chapters are concerned.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

hailene said:


> How are they not deployed? They ARE deployed, in vehicles.


hailene, think you need a chill pill buddy. Let me try and explain this using modern examples. 

The way that modern "Strike Force," tactics that are often employed by modern armed forces work is that you have the actual Soldiers (Foot Sloggers like myself), and then you have the rest which fall under "Support." Take for example my old Unit, the 10th Moutain Division ("Climb to Glory Hoah!!"). The First Brigade Combat Team (which I was a part of) includes the 2-22 Infantry Battalion is purely "Foot Sloggers," ground soldiers who do the dirty work of fighting on foot. The rest of the Brigade is all Support......serious! The Cav Scouts, Arty boys over in the 3-6 Striker Unit, the Support Brigade, and even the 548th Sustainment guys over at the depot all fall under "Support" for this one combat unit.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Let me try and explain this using modern examples.


I wrote a fairly lengthy post but I felt like this "disagreement" isn't so much about whether marines are spent as support are wasted or not and rather more what you believe "support" is.

If you want to say marines not deployed in Tactical Squads are, really, just support for the Tactical Squads, sure, you can argue that. That's not what I'm arguing against and I don't really think that's what Oldman was arguing either.

Oldman felt that they needed 10 companies of pure infantry to retain tactical flexibility...which still makes no sense to me.

The Astartes commander has the choice of deploying his men with whatever equipment he deems necessary. If a Chapter Master felt that his tactical and strategic goals would be best met with 1000 infantry, then he'd have 1000 infantry. If he thought he'd get more bang for his buck by slotting a few of his Assault Marines in Land Speeders and placing his First Company in Terminator armor and Land Raiders, then that's what he would so decide.

In fact, if anything, placing them in vehicles would offer MORE flexibility. If you need a vehicle, hey, you have a vehicle. If you need infantry, you just tell the men to pop out and they're infantry. They're trained to do both. Having a vehicle there gives you the choice between tankers and infantry whereas deploying them purely as infantry would limit you to infantry.


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