# Today's Heroes



## AdonisGallus (Sep 19, 2010)

I am currently reading Courage and Honor, an Ultramarines Novel based around the events of the Hero Captain Uriel Ventris. 

I started thinking about this, and decided I'd like to hear other peoples opinions on the matter. 

I was wondering if there were any Heroes within the Imperium who would actually be a match for the various heroes within Chaos.

For example: is there anyone who you can think of that could stand up to say Ezekyle Abaddon in a one on one fight?

Or how about Lucius the Eternal? Are there any Heroes among the Imperial forces who could stand up to this guys? 


I've obviously left out plenty of Heroes from both sides, so if you've any to add feel free along with what you think on the matter.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I don't know to be honest. I try not to think about it, but the Ultramarines series is the only series where I've seen complete domination of Chaos forces. Both in _Dead Sky, Black Sun_ and _The Chapter's Due_. In the Word Bearers trilogy I think you see more of a better looking depiction of what happens to a space marine or even a space marine Chapter Master (who's chapter is devoted against the fight against chaos) when they fuck with a chaos space marine. I am blank with words on the Ultramarines series. 

As to your question though, I think the best odds would be Uriel and Calagar.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The obvious choices like Calgar, Grimmnar, Rangnar, Dante, Mephiston and the like are all up there for sure.


----------



## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

AdonisGallus said:


> I am currently reading Courage and Honor, an Ultramarines Novel based around the events of the Hero Captain Uriel Ventris.
> I was wondering if there were any Heroes within the Imperium who would actually be a match for the various heroes within Chaos.
> For example: is there anyone who you can think of that could stand up to say Ezekyle Abaddon in a one on one fight?
> I've obviously left out plenty of Heroes from both sides, so if you've any to add feel free along with what you think on the matter.


I think the toughest Space Marine other than a Primarch would either a Chapter Master or the higher ranked Grey Knights in a fight against a leading CSM. 
Then I got to thinking about the Soul Drinkers, the rebel Sarpedon had to fight his own Chapter Master and was loosing badly, then a chaos prince gave him a small amount of power that mutated him and he tore his Chapter Master to shreds. 
So any Chaos Space Marine of leadership level isnt going to be easy to face one on one, but heroic fights in fiction loves see heroes beat massive odds - usually by finding a weakspot or achilles heel (ie cheating).
I can name a few fights that show how tough the high level chaos heroes are.

The big Grey Knight hero (forget his name) becomes slave on a Khorn death world after being one punched by a Khorne champion.
Eisonhorns entire team are petrified in terror by one single CSM and need bequin to break the spell of being frozen in terror by his presence alone, and only beats him by throwing the necronomicon at him to distract him and deliver the death blow. 
Ragnar frequently fight a CSM leader and only survives by the skin of his teeth most of the time.
They are pretty tough.


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> Then I got to thinking about the Soul Drinkers, the rebel Sarpedon had to fight his own Chapter Master and was loosing badly, then a chaos prince gave him a small amount of power that mutated him and he tore his Chapter Master to shreds.


I havn't read that book but it sounds like it was an unexpeced power increase that lead to a quick kill for Sarpedon. I would guess the CM wasn't taking him seriously and then the next minute the guy's part deamon.


> So any Chaos Space Marine of leadership level isnt going to be easy to face one on one, but heroic fights in fiction loves see heroes beat massive odds - usually by finding a weakspot or achilles heel (ie cheating).
> I can name a few fights that show how tough the high level chaos heroes are.


Hitting a weak point isn't cheating, it's smart. If you're a Tau Firewarrior facing Nids you don't melee them, you shoot them. 


> The big Grey Knight hero (forget his name) becomes slave on a Khorn death world after being one punched by a Khorne champion.
> Eisonhorns entire team are petrified in terror by one single CSM and need bequin to break the spell of being frozen in terror by his presence alone, and only beats him by throwing the necronomicon at him to distract him and deliver the death blow.
> Ragnar frequently fight a CSM leader and only survives by the skin of his teeth most of the time.
> They are pretty tough.


I love story mechanics, they allow the story to go forward. A chaos champ one punching a GK is laughable. A deamon Prince, ok but a regular (thats a funny term to use here) Champion? no way. They would be to similar in power levels.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

AdonisGallus said:


> For example: is there anyone who you can think of that could stand up to say Ezekyle Abaddon in a one on one fight?


Though there are some heroes of the astartes (for example Dante, Mephiston, Lysander, Calgar, Tigurius, Grimnar etc.) who could give most of the chaos boys a pretty decent run for their money, I don't believe that there is a loyalist alive who has a snowball's chance in hell against Abaddon in a one on one fight.

By the way, does anyone know how old Logan Grimnar is coz' supposedly he's been chapter master of the SW for over 700 years?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I dunno, a Aureullian killed/banished Angron, Dante supposedly killed a bloodthirster(could be a myth though) the Sanguinator defeinetly killed a bloodthirster, a Space Wolf put up a good fight against Magnus, Calgar killed an Avatar. The big Astartes heroes have pulled off some pretty amazing feats, i wouldn't count them all out against Abaddon, i mean come on, who has he really killed of any significance? sure he rallies the chaos troops and makes really good plans........well 13 crusades of fail, but he's never gone out and killed some uber heroe or beast of any kind that i can remember reading. Could be wrong but still, i bet Dante, Mephiston, Calgar, Blackman, Grimmnar could give him a good fight, if not beat him


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I dunno, a Aureullian killed/banished Angron, Dante supposedly killed a bloodthirster(could be a myth though) the Sanguinator defeinetly killed a bloodthirster, a Space Wolf put up a good fight against Magnus, Calgar killed an Avatar. The big Astartes heroes have pulled off some pretty amazing feats, i wouldn't count them all out against Abaddon, i mean come on, who has he really killed of any significance? sure he rallies the chaos troops and makes really good plans........well 13 crusades of fail, but he's never gone out and killed some uber heroe or beast of any kind that i can remember reading. Could be wrong but still, i bet Dante, Mephiston, Calgar, Blackman, Grimmnar could give him a good fight, if not beat him


So you're saying that they could give Horus's successor a run for his money, the greatest among the Luna Wolves during the Great Crusade and current chosen one of all four chaos gods? I'm sorry but I really don't see that happening. Plus, the Despoiler has an ace in the hole. He's got the uber powerful daemon sword Drach'nyen as well as the Talon of Horus. There aren't many weapons the imperium possess that can match up to those (with the probable exception of things like the Soulspear etc.) Maybe if they ganged up on him they might have a shot but that's about it. Well, that's what my opinion is anyway.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus he is not though. He became defacto leader of the Sons of Horus as Horus was dead. It's like saying Julius Kaeseron, Typhus, Kharn, Sahaal, Kor Phaereon, Ingo Pech or any of the first captains from the crusade era are essence and like as good as the primarchs themselves. Angron is a deamon primarch! Your saying Abaddon is more powerful than him? or bloodthristers, avatars, numerous deamon princes, and a whole manner of other insanely powerful monsters/individuals. Wielding those weapons does not make him invulnerable, at the end of the day the Talons of Horus are just mega lightning claws. Calgar has the Gauntlets of Ultramar, worn by Guilliman himself and killed an Avatar with them.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> It's like saying Julius Kaeseron, Typhus, Kharn, Sahaal, Kor Phaereon, Ingo Pech or any of the first captains from the crusade era are essence and like as good as the primarchs themselves.


Although like he said, Abaddon now wields one of the most powerful weapons of all time. A blade that can literally rend reality apart. As well as being protected and blessed directly by the Chaos Gods. There are few if any Imperial champions that could stand against Abaddon single-handedly.



Angel of Blood said:


> Angron is a deamon primarch!


And therefore totally reliant on a source of warp energy for enroachments into the material realm, being a major weakness (something Abaddon needs not worry too much about). He faced the some of the galaxy's greatest anti-Chaos weapons, those trained and prepared in the art of daemonic banishments, and even then he still decimated the most part of an entire terminator company if memory serves.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

A blade that if memory serves would love to turn on him should he release its power, theirs a big deus ex machina just waiting to happen there. And what if the chaos gods get bored with him, or the fact that in 13 black crusades of fail he still hasnt even managed to take Cadia, let alone kill the Emperor like he keeps promising to do. He isn't immortal, i still think the greatest imperial heroes could give him a good fucking run for his money or potentially beat him.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> A blade that if memory serves would love to turn on him should he release its power, theirs a big deus ex machina just waiting to happen there. And what if the chaos gods get bored with him, or the fact that in 13 black crusades of fail he still hasnt even managed to take Cadia, let alone kill the Emperor like he keeps promising to do. He isn't immortal, i still think the greatest imperial heroes could give him a good fucking run for his money or potentially beat him.


He did take Cadia for a bit during the 13th crusade, or at least established a decent foothold for a while. Also, the Chaos Gods currently AREN'T bored with him. They're still fuelling him with some of their power. Saying that the Chaos Gods might get bored with Abaddon one day doesn't really apply to comparing him to others in his current state because otherwise you might as well say, 'What if Calgar gets so old that he needs to shove a stick up his ass to stand up straight?' Then he obviously won't be able to take on Abaddon.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes but the question was on todays heroes, not todays in a few centuries when they are too old to carry on. Calgars still young, as are most of them save Dante who is still kicking massive amount of ass. The chaos gods could abandon Abaddon at any moment, they are fickle and random like that after all


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Saying that the chaos god might get bored, but isnt he brining the biggest fight with the most slaughter to them?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> A blade that if memory serves would love to turn on him should he release its power


Regardless, Abaddon wielding _Drach'nyen_ is still clearly much more of an advantage than disadvantage. It is one of the most powerful weapons in 40k lore, one that largely increases the Despoiler's already formidable power.



Angel of Blood said:


> And what if the chaos gods get bored with him


The point is they havn't, not even after ~10,000 years. Yes the Chaos Gods are fickle and irrational, but if they havn't abadoned him thus far, I don't think they are likely to do so any time soon, especially considering the widespread devastation caused to the material realm by the recent 13th Black Crusade.



Angel of Blood said:


> or the fact that in 13 black crusades of fail he still hasnt even managed to take Cadia, let alone kill the Emperor like he keeps promising to do.


This isn't really the place to discuss it, but in my opinion not a single one of his crusades have failed or been failures.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This isn't really the place to discuss it, but in my opinion not a single one of his crusades have failed or been failures.


From what little there is on fluff on Abaddon, at least he doesn't think the crusades have been complete failures. In the overall scheme of things, perhaps the crusades have not been failures as to some suggest. Both representatives of two other legions, (Talos from the Night Lords) and (Honsou of the Iron Warriors) both regard Abaddon and his crusades as failures. More so though due to their Legions suffering as a consequence though. 

I'm really not sure if the Imperium generally has Heroes that are skilled enough to fight the powers of chaos. Lets face it, these traitor legions are pretty old and definitely more veteran than most of the astartes in the 40k realm. I think more or less though it has been the Imperium ability in wearing these legions down that has been their ultimate triumph. This ties into my previous paragragh. We can tell more with the Night Lords that their supplies and abilities to maintain their legion is failing. Abaddon's crusade is just dragging their legion down. With the Iron Warriors, Honsou seems to have taken his own crusade regarding Abaddon as a failure. The rest/most of the Iron Warriors basically just paid a toll to keep from joining his crusade. The Word Bearers seem to have something going on with their own agenda; another purging within their ranks and perhaps the chaos legions. So Abaddon is losing the support of three legions. Perhaps not entirely, but definitely a heart felt loss. 

To be honest, Abaddon must win his foothold in Cadia to gain further support or he will suffer.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The contained within has nothing to do with the thread, its about Abaddon and the crusades. Thou hast been warned!





ckcrawford said:


> From what little there is on fluff on Abaddon, at least he doesn't think the crusades have been complete failures. In the overall scheme of things, perhaps the crusades have not been failures as to some suggest.


Of his thirteen with any amount of fluff to them, how many of those crusades have actually been failures? Certainly not the first, where Abaddon had the forces under his control cause widespread carnage so that he could obtain Drach'nyen. (Yeah thats right, crusade one wa shim getting the blade, so mission accomplished.)

Black crusade two, set foot on and ravaged Cadia and tied up fighting forces in the area for five years. When your at war with everything, how much can you afford to focus on a single front before the others are weakened and things get through? 

Crusade four is the only actual failed one, where the Despoilers forces were actually utterly devestated.

Seven nearly saw the entire Blood Angels chapter wiped out, they escaped with horrendous losses.

Number twelve, the gothic war, gave Abaddon two blackstone fortresses, had him unleash the planetkiller, destroyed several worlds and at least one star. This one destablilized and ravaged the sector to the point where a century, minimum, is needed to rebuild.

Thirteen, foot hold on Cadia, ravaged or destroyed countless dozens of planets, fighting for it still rages on, whole sectors need to be reclaimed.


Yeah, the Despoiler hasn't stepped foot on Terra in ten thousand years, he hasn't cast the Emperor from the golden throne; but he most certainly has not failed to the degree some credit him for.

Just because the Imperium hasn't been destroyed does not mean it has won. It still loses resources and manpower, ground is lost and locations are weakened in order to bolster others. Of the above six, Abaddon has a failure rate of 17%, not half bad considering everything he has done. (You know, unite the legions under one cause time and again.)




As for the OP, there are some heroes of the Imperium who could stand up against some of the various chaos champions. Stand up to, not win mind you. Someone like Tigirius or Mephiston might be able to go toe to toe with the likes of Ahriman or Typhus but fact remains that they have a mastery above the loyalists and do not need to worry so much about control or restraint. 

Fact is though, they are still much younger and much less experienced in comparison; your basic legion marine might easily be the match of two, three, or even four loyalist marines


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I dunno, a Aureullian killed/banished Angron, Dante supposedly killed a bloodthirster(could be a myth though) the Sanguinator defeinetly killed a bloodthirster, a Space Wolf put up a good fight against Magnus, Calgar killed an Avatar. The big Astartes heroes have pulled off some pretty amazing feats, i wouldn't count them all out against Abaddon, i mean come on, who has he really killed of any significance? sure he rallies the chaos troops and makes really good plans........well 13 crusades of fail,


How has he failed? The only one that I can think of as a failure was the First, and even then Dorn was lost during the fighting and he was able to grab Drach'nyen. In the Seventh he defeated the Blood Angels so badly they were unable to recover the bodies of their fallen form his grasp. The Gothic War was pretty much about the Blackstones and he achived appearantly enough to begin his next phase. The 13th was inconsclusive.

We dont' know how the other Black Crusades turned out for him or even what his plans or objectives even were.



Angel of Blood said:


> but he's never gone out and killed some uber heroe or beast of any kind that i can remember reading. Could be wrong but still, i bet Dante, Mephiston, Calgar, Blackmane, Grimmnar could give him a good fight, if not beat him


He one-shotted a three meter adamantium gate. In his Index Astartes he was called unstoppable.



> At El'Phanor, his forces assaulted the Citadel of the Kromarch; a fastness built with all the cunning its designers could muster. It was pierced with but a single portal, a mighty gate of adamantium, fully three metres thick, but Abaddon cared not. He boasted that he would feast on the Kromarch's kin and led the charge of the gate himself. The Citadel was a masterpiece of military engineering and barely one in ten of Abaddon's warriors survived to reach the gate. To either side, enemy weapons prevented their retreat, but Abaddon laughed, raising his sword wreathed in black flames high above his head and smote the gate a blow that _smashed it to splinters and shook the very foundations of the citadel_. As Abaddon had promised, he and his warriors feasted upon the Kromarch.


That is a very impressive physcial feat. Anyone think that Grimnar or Calgar could one-shot something like that?



Angel of Blood said:


> A blade that if memory serves would love to turn on him should he release its power, theirs a big deus ex machina just waiting to happen there.


Maybe not, in 3.5 he was the only Chaos champion who mastered his dameon weapon compltetely.



Angel of Blood said:


> And what if the chaos gods get bored with him, or the fact that in 13 black crusades of fail he still hasnt even managed to take Cadia, let alone kill the Emperor like he keeps promising to do.


Again, how has he failed?



ckcrawford said:


> From what little there is on fluff on Abaddon, at least he doesn't think the crusades have been complete failures. In the overall scheme of things, perhaps the crusades have not been failures as to some suggest. Both representatives of two other legions, (Talos from the Night Lords) and (Honsou of the Iron Warriors) both regard Abaddon and his crusades as failures. More so though due to their Legions suffering as a consequence though.
> 
> I'm really not sure if the Imperium generally has Heroes that are skilled enough to fight the powers of chaos. Lets face it, these traitor legions are pretty old and definitely more veteran than most of the astartes in the 40k realm. I think more or less though it has been the Imperium ability in wearing these legions down that has been their ultimate triumph. This ties into my previous paragragh. We can tell more with the Night Lords that their supplies and abilities to maintain their legion is failing. Abaddon's crusade is just dragging their legion down. With the Iron Warriors, Honsou seems to have taken his own crusade regarding Abaddon as a failure. The rest/most of the Iron Warriors basically just paid a toll to keep from joining his crusade. The Word Bearers seem to have something going on with their own agenda; another purging within their ranks and perhaps the chaos legions. So Abaddon is losing the support of three legions. Perhaps not entirely, but definitely a heart felt loss.
> 
> To be honest, Abaddon must win his foothold in Cadia to gain further support or he will suffer.


Not quite. Talos's opinions do not reflect the entire Night Lords Legion. In Soul Hunter we meet some Night Lords who fully supprt Abaddon and even one who has actually joined the Black Legion. The same applies for Honsou, he does not speak for the entire IV Legion.

Not to mention Abaddon appears to have plenty of support. The Chaos codex talks about how Champions and warbands from all legions are clamoring to join Abaddon _because_ of his sucesses.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Not quite. Talos's opinions do not reflect the entire Night Lords Legion. In Soul Hunter we meet some Night Lords who fully supprt Abaddon and even one who has actually joined the Black Legion. The same applies for Honsou, he does not speak for the entire IV Legion.


Talos and Honsou do not speak for the entirety of their legions, this much is true, but you can see that these legions have their own agenda as well. For example, The Night lords as an entire legion in their persuit of the recording of their lost primarch went searching for it. The Iron Warriors have paid Abaddon in captured geneseed to remain silent (for the most part) in Abaddon's crusade. Not to mention Talos has great influence in his legion. 



> Not to mention Abaddon appears to have plenty of support. The Chaos codex talks about how Champions and warbands from all legions are clamoring to join Abaddon because of his sucesses.


This much is true as well, though as I said this crusade must prevail in order to maintain their support. It seems that the chaos astartes are mastly outnumbered. All they really have is warbands of the first legions and I could only find a few renegade chapters comparbily to the amount of loyalist chapters fighting against them. Who is to say they are at full strength too. The violaters have lost over a third of their chapter of which they will probably never know what has happened to them. The Night Lords for example are suffering from lost numbers and loss of equipment like astartes armor. I can only imagine these rengade chapters and warbands are suffering from the same problems. Theres a point where they will have to look to their well being of their warbands before Abaddon's crusade.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fine i give up, you've proved a point, Abaddon really is just infinitly boring to me now, what's the point in a villain who is for all intents and purposes immortal, can smash down gates, nigh on wipe out chapters. Fuck him, 30k abbadon may have been interesting, but he currently to me is possibly the most boring character in 40k. 

So in other words, long answer to the OP? read the thread, short answer, no, primarch banishing, avatar slaying, bloodthirster arsekickers and the like are no match for him, and i dearly wish i was being sarcastic in that statement, unfortunately i'm not


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Fine i give up, you've proved a point, Abaddon really is just infinitly boring to me now, what's the point in a villain who is for all intents and purposes immortal, can smash down gates, nigh on wipe out chapters. Fuck him, 30k abbadon may have been interesting, but he currently to me is possibly the most boring character in 40k.
> 
> So in other words, long answer to the OP? read the thread, short answer, no, primarch banishing, avatar slaying, bloodthirster arsekickers and the like are no match for him, and i dearly wish i was being sarcastic in that statement, unfortunately i'm not


:laugh:. Pretty true. For game purposes I imagine that GW could have some weird intervention where Abaddon somehow gets weak so they can sell some of the other legions stuff. Probably for the sakes of increasing sales by making new codexs and models. Could see this happening. They would probably do this because you are right in the way that black legion and Abaddon has dominated the chaos fan base and maybe getting a bit boring. 

As to how they could weaken him... BL has done some redicolous things. Similar to the Ultramarine pwning, they could have one of the characters owning him in some redicolous fashion. :blush:, like Loken comming out of the heavens and borrowing the "Shard of Erebus."


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Talos and Honsou do not speak for the entirety of their legions, this much is true, but you can see that these legions have their own agenda as well. For example, The Night lords as an entire legion in their persuit of the recording of their lost primarch went searching for it.


But they are hardly united, and many warleaders of the Night Lords were fighting for Abaddon in his 13th Crusade.



ckcrawford said:


> The Iron Warriors have paid Abaddon in captured geneseed to remain silent (for the most part) in Abaddon's crusade.


And yet we have mentions of them fighting in Abaddon's Black Crusade in some fairly notable actions if I recall my Eye of Terror codex correctly.



ckcrawford said:


> Not to mention Talos has great influence in his legion.


Not as much as you imply. Talos is not the only prophet and not the only one of the Night Haunter's favoured. The fact that he is apart of a dwindling company serving another at the start of Soul Hunter speaks of just exactly what his influence is.



ckcrawford said:


> This much is true as well, though as I said this crusade must prevail in order to maintain their support.


Which, appearantly, going by the chaos codex Abaddon has done so.



ckcrawford said:


> It seems that the chaos astartes are mastly outnumbered. All they really have is warbands of the first legions and I could only find a few renegade chapters comparbily to the amount of loyalist chapters fighting against them. Who is to say they are at full strength too. The violaters have lost over a third of their chapter of which they will probably never know what has happened to them. The Night Lords for example are suffering from lost numbers and loss of equipment like astartes armor. I can only imagine these rengade chapters and warbands are suffering from the same problems. Theres a point where they will have to look to their well being of their warbands before Abaddon's crusade.


According to Dark Creed the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10-1. Only 9,000 Word Bearers showed up in the book, a small part of the WB Legion itself. The Black Legion alone must number 90,000 at the very least.

And Chaos Marines still grow and recruit the old-fasioned way, using geneseed that is not corrupted or loyalist geneseed. The Chaos Codex claims that the strength of the Black Legion grows with every assault Abaddon leads and implies that Abaddon is growing, not getting weaker.

But we don't know how many Chaos Marines are out there still. It depends how big you consider the Legions Pre-Heresy, wheter 10,000 Astartes (Index Astartes) or Visions of War (100,000 as average)



ckcrawford said:


> :laugh:. Pretty true. For game purposes I imagine that GW could have some weird intervention where Abaddon somehow gets weak so they can sell some of the other legions stuff. Probably for the sakes of increasing sales by making new codexs and models. Could see this happening. They would probably do this because you are right in the way that black legion and Abaddon has dominated the chaos fan base and maybe getting a bit boring.
> 
> As to how they could weaken him... BL has done some redicolous things. Similar to the Ultramarine pwning, they could have one of the characters owning him in some redicolous fashion. :blush:, like Loken comming out of the heavens and borrowing the "Shard of Erebus."


Other way around actually. What Games Workshop needs to do is buff Abaddon more. (I see more Word Bearers and Iron Warrior armeis than I do Black Legion actually. I'm the only one in my area who plays a Black Legion army. Stuff like Iron Warriors and the Cult Leigons are more popular.)

True or not Abaddon is a ''failure'', or at least has the sterotype. The sterotype is so prevelant it's actually been put in stuff like Black Library with Honsou and Talos. Most people will consider him a failure, even if that's not true. Look at 4chan or Tv Tropes.

Most of Abaddon's Crusades are shrouded in mystery, but we rarely get to see a victory that shows us why he is considered the Warmaster of Chaos. By all means, don't go like Ward did with Calgar. But rather I would like to see GW write up a number of battles for Abbadon to win in order to dispel that sterotyped image of a failure.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he? you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype? its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful. Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he?


No, I mean giving him some sort solid victories.



Angel of Blood said:


> you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype?


Because he is a susposed ''failure'' at not destroying the Imperium of Man? That's what I've seen on pretty much every forum ever.



Angel of Blood said:


> its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful.


Funny, most of the complaints I here are about his tactical abiltities. I rarely, if ever hear complaints of him being too powerful.



Angel of Blood said:


> Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo


Well appearantly, going by his reputation among players in the fan community he is certainly not all powerful. If he were truely all powerful as you say then he would have destroyed the Imperium dozens of times over.

Abaddon's powerful, but GW does't really focus on that much and that leaves the whole meme that Abaddon is a failure.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he? you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype? its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful. Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo


No, not buffening him, merely distributing the popularity and maybe in BL terms "power" of Abbadon and his black legion throughout the chaos legions.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> No, not buffening him, merely distributing the popularity and maybe in BL terms "power" of Abbadon and his black legion throughout the chaos legions.


Popularity? Are you talking about in-story or in real life? Because as I've told you, I've seen far more Iron Warriors and Cult Legions than BL online and on TT. Codexwise the only Black Legion character is Abaddon himself.

Storywise the popularity of the Black Legion is why Abaddon's the Warmaster. It's one of the few things that are clear enough in the fluff that Black Legion players like me can point out and say ''That's why 's Warmaster of Chaos.''. It's not like the Ultramarines Codex were you have a subtle sense of condescation in Ward's prose. The Chaos Codex does not say or even imply that the Black Legion is nessecarily better than other Legions. You don't need to distribute power when it takes away from the BL's niche, being the lynchpin of the Chaos Legions. 

Again, storywise Abaddon is the Waraster of Chaos. If he were not incredibly blessed and physcially powerful then why would he be the most powerful Chaos Lord? Taking him down a notch will only renforce the idea that Abaddon is a ''failure''. What you need to do is reinvent him.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If your going to quote someone at least look at what your quoting. I distinctly said "unpopular to some" which doesn't mean most. Yes most laugh at his apparent fail record, but i said some, because to some, ie. now me, i think having a all powerful character is boring as hell. If you look back over this thread you will see examples others of given of him making pretty solid victories, don't reply on bitching fan groups(fuck, you can include me in this category to some regard) on what a character is actually like


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> If your going to quote someone at least look at what your quoting. I distinctly said "unpopular to some" which doesn't mean most. Yes most laugh at his apparent fail record, but i said some, because to some, ie. now me, i think having a all powerful character is boring as hell. If you look back over this thread you will see examples others of given of him making pretty solid victories, don't reply on bitching fan groups(fuck, you can include me in this category to some regard) on what a character is actually like


I choose to reply to whomever I wish. As long as I follow the rules you have little say in the matter I'm afriad. You may consider him to be ''overpowered'' (Although you seemed to be in the later camp until recently. It's a rather sharp 180 to be honest. I've beleive I already stated a couple of time show he is not invincible) but unfourtunately a character's greater image usually follows through imo. I've already pointed out he is not all powerful, merely powerful, you choose to ignore that seemingly.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> I choose to reply to whomever I wish. As long as I follow the rules you have little say in the matter I'm afriad.


That makes little sense to what i said. 

And no, i always knew Abaddon was powerful, still consider his Black Crusades to be fails as far as his ultimate goal goes or in a large scale, but i always knew he was powerful, recent posts have shown him to be horendously overpowered however, not exactly a 180 at all


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> That makes little sense to what i said.


Maybe you should be a bit more clearer for me?



Angel of Blood said:


> And no, i always knew Abaddon was powerful, still consider his Black Crusades to be fails as far as his ultimate goal goes or in a large scale,


Are you privy to Abaddon's battle plans or objectives?



Angel of Blood said:


> but i always knew he was powerful, recent posts have shown him to be horendously overpowered however, not exactly a 180 at all


How have my recent posts shown him to be overpowered? Drach-nyen is a highly potent weapon certainly, but Abaddon is hardly invincible. He's no primarch for certain.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> Maybe you should be a bit more clearer for me?


Point i was making was you misquoted me, i abbadon is not popular with some people because of his power, you went on to say this was wrong and most complaints you saw were on his crusades. Point was i never said most people, i said some people, not most. Either way its irrelevant




Gree said:


> Are you privy to Abaddon's battle plans or objectives?


Abaddon has made no effort to hide his desire to see the Emperor dead and Terra defeated.




Gree said:


> How have my recent posts shown him to be overpowered? Drach-nyen is a highly potent weapon certainly, but Abaddon is hardly invincible. He's no primarch for certain.


More people have posted other than you, and virtually everyone else has said he is virtually undefeatable, that the greatest champions of the Imperium would be no match for him because of his power. When someone can't be defeated by anybody else, its pretty much unversally agreed he is overpowered.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Point i was making was you misquoted me, i abbadon is not popular with some people because of his power, you went on to say this was wrong and most complaints you saw were on his crusades. Point was i never said most people, i said some people, not most. Either way its irrelevant


That does not make too much sense, but whatever. It's irrelevant.



Angel of Blood said:


> Abaddon has made no effort to hide his desire to see the Emperor dead and Terra defeated.


I was talking aboout the strategic and tactical objectives of each crusade. Surely you don't expect him to burst throught he second most heavilty fortfied sector in the galalxy, cross the Obscruas and Solar, and destroy ther most heavily fortified system in the galaxy in one fell swoop?

No, take a look at the 12th Crusade, each crusade is planned around a larger overall goal.



Angel of Blood said:


> More people have posted other than you, and virtually everyone else has said he is virtually undefeatable, that the greatest champions of the Imperium would be no match for him because of his power. When someone can't be defeated by anybody else, its pretty much unversally agreed he is overpowered.


I thoguth we were comparing him to Imperial Heroes. People who are Space Marines. Abaddon vs a Primarch, or Abaddon vs a C'tan would be a different story in the overall context. If one only means Imperial Heroes in ''Anybody else'' and nothing else, then yes you are correct. Otherwise no.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Imperial heroes have defeated Primarchs, greater deamons, deamon princes and more, yet abaddon is untouchable apparently


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Imperial heroes have defeated Primarchs, greater deamons, deamon princes and more, yet abaddon is untouchable apparently


Not quite. I assume you are talking about Great Wolf Ironhelm's fight with Magnus? The best Ironhelm could do was wound Magnus, he was defeated. Greater daemons have a vareity of power levels, I renemeber some Titan-sized Greater Daemons in Epic, way back. Not all Greater Daemons are the same. Daemons Princes are likewise a wildcard in powers. Some Daemon Princes are stronger than others and Abaddon is arguably stronger than some with Drach-nyen at his side.

Or are you referring to when 100 Grey Knight Termies went against Angron and his Bloodthristers? I would remind you only a handful survived and they barely managed to banish Angron. I can't recall an instance were a Imperial Hero fought a Primarch one on one in a straight fight and won.

And no, I don't see how Abaddon's untouchable, somebody like Grimmnar or Calgar could probably deal with decent wounds, but Abaddon is not Warmaster of Chaos for nothing, they would lose to Drach-nyen.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

How about Kharn? Anybody think there's a loyalist who could take him? I think there are a couple of chapter masters who WOULD be able to beat him (unfortunately for them he'll probably just get resurrected afterwards). As for guys like Lucius, I think there are loads of guys who could give him a run for his money, coz' lets face it, he can only have so many trapped souls in his armour if they beat him initially and felt satisfaction, enjoyment etc. which means he must have died in combat quite a few times and I'm sure at least a few of those times he was fighting imperial heroes.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If you read the fight on Angron it was pretty much one on one between him and Aurelian, his other battlebrothers taking the brunt of the 12(!!) Bloodthirsters charge, which they still all killed in the end. May have been 100 of the, but that's still pretty good fucking going. And again Aurelian was holding out alone against Angron for some time. The fact that a wolf lord can even wound Magnus is amazing in itself and not just get crushed utterly. From memory, and i'll read the codex again later, the Bloodthirsters the Blood Angels killed were very powerful and ones, more so than the average, i'll have to read up on the Sagnuinator fight again. Likewise im pretty sure some of the deamon princes that have been defeated wern't just flunkies, even the lowest deamon prince is still going to be hugely powerful. But again for all this, Abaddon will just suffer, some wounds.....

Kharn? i've no doubt that some of the Imperiums finest could beat him, screw Abbadon, Kharn could be done. Lucius? well many have beaten him, it's just the problem of him coming back and thereby killing them later on.


----------



## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

I would like to make a point about Angron and Aurellian, you seem to be forget that Aurelian was a grey knight designed to fight against daemons so of course he be able to stand up against angron and if a normal chapter master or captain even a librarian was to stand against him i doubt that they would be able to survive against Angron. 
So trying to say that if one guy who could banish a daemon primarch, then abaddon should be easy is rubbish because Angron has one weakness Abaddon doesnt and that is the relience on warp energy to be able to take physical form in the material relm. Which means any number of anti-daemons could banish Angron. 
I think if Aurellian was to go up against Abaddon i dont think he'd have such an easy time either and i doubt the wards and anti-daemon weapons would have much of an effect on Abaddon as it would on a daemon, plus there wouldnt be any banshing going on against Abaddon, so it be more of a fight between skill and strength and im sorry to say but Abaddon would prob win.

As for lucius i doubt some of his defeats were because he wasnt skilled enough, i have a feeling that most of them, he allowed him self to be defeated so he could feel that pleasure of death, he is a devout follower of slannesh after all, 
For kharn perhaps some of the heros could defeat him but theyd have a hell of a time, and of course no of the librarians would be able to do anything to him.

so overall most of the loyalist heros would struggle to outright defeat most of the chaos heros,


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

yanlou said:


> For kharn perhaps some of the heros could defeat him but theyd have a hell of a time, and of course no of the librarians would be able to do anything to him.


I don't know. I think someone like Mephiston could give him a good run. Pyschic powers aside, he's still a Blood Angel, a member of a chapter that is renowned for their bloodthirsty nature in battle and prowess in melee combat. Not to mention the fact that he's managed to conquer the curse in their geneseed. Also, I might be wrong but I think I remember reading somewhere that he's one of the best swordsman in the chapter.


----------



## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

would be an interesting fight to see, i wonder which one would be more bloodthirsty, hmmm.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> If you read the fight on Angron it was pretty much one on one between him and Aurelian, his other battlebrothers taking the brunt of the 12(!!) Bloodthirsters charge, which they still all killed in the end.


I have never read that. Can you give me a quote of him taking Angron one on one? To me knowledge Aurelian never fought one on one with Angron. The specifics of the fight were not given.



Angel of Blood said:


> but that's still pretty good fucking going. And again Aurelian was holding out alone against Angron for some time.


Again, where are you getting this from?



Angel of Blood said:


> The fact that a wolf lord can even wound Magnus is amazing in itself and not just get crushed utterly.


Why not? He was a Chapter Master of a chapter that most likely knew Magnus's weaknesses.



Angel of Blood said:


> From memory, and i'll read the codex again later, the Bloodthirsters the Blood Angels killed were very powerful and ones, more so than the average,


Ka'Banda was killed in a joint effort between the Grey Knights and the Sanguinary Guard. The Sanguinior was effectively a Blood Angels Daemon Prince so his power is hard to quantify.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The fight between Aurelian and Angron was in a White Dwarf quite a few years back, went into great detail on the first Armageddon War and a big narrative several pages long about the last battle against Angron. And deamon issue aside, im fairly certain that if Aurelian or any other pysker for that matter could stab Abbadon and then channel all of their power into the blow (ala force weapon) it would still kill him even if he isn't a deamon. And just because Grey Knights are used soley to fight deamons doesn't mean they should obviously be able to take on Angron, yes hes now a deamon, but hell he's quite possibly one of the most powerful individuals around, even outside of the warp he's still worringly powerful. They didn't just do some banishing spell or funky shit on him, Aurelian killed his physical body, which by consequence banished him back to the warp. If done to anything else it would have died aswell.


Shit Mephiston literally strangled a deamon prince to death/banishment, tore a carnifex to peices again with his bare hands. And yeah, checking up on it the Sanguinor defeated Ka'bandha, something only Sanguinius himself or a whole load of Sanguinary Guard and Grey Knights could do. How about the Sanguinor vs Abaddon? Plus we have no idea what the Sanguinor is, its never been said he's a deamon of any kind, not even hinted at, regardless he is a Hero of the Imperium, so therefore fits the category.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The fight between Aurelian and Angron was in a White Dwarf quite a few years back, went into great detail on the first Armageddon War and a big narrative several pages long about the last battle against Angron.


I'm sorry then, without any kind of reliable refrence or quote I don't believe you. All information I have read have not indicated what you claim. The only White Dwarf I can find information on the First War is WD 151, and I don't see that information at all. The board game _Chaos Attack_ mentions Aurelian sacrificing himself to allow his brothers to win, but nothing about him taking Angron one on one.

If you have the actual quote it would be greatly appreiciated, but otherwise if you are just quoteing things of off memory a few years back then it is not reliable at all. That's pretty vague.



Angel of Blood said:


> And deamon issue aside, im fairly certain that if Aurelian or any other pysker for that matter could stab Abbadon and then channel all of their power into the blow (ala force weapon) it would still kill him even if he isn't a deamon.


Doubtful. The Chaos Gods are stated to have a plan for Abaddon. That is why he is immune to insant death. Or at least if that's if you want to bring games stats into it.



Angel of Blood said:


> And just because Grey Knights are used soley to fight deamons doesn't mean they should obviously be able to take on Angron, yes hes now a deamon, but hell he's quite possibly one of the most powerful individuals around, even outside of the warp he's still worringly powerful.


And that's why you obviously send the Imperium's best after him.



Angel of Blood said:


> They didn't just do some banishing spell or funky shit on him, Aurelian killed his physical body, which by consequence banished him back to the warp. If done to anything else it would have died aswell.


Where does it state that? I can find nothing about that in WD 151 or the 3.5 Chaos Codex or the Space Wolves Codex thar details the First War. I even went to Angron's datasheet and I can't find that information.



Angel of Blood said:


> Shit Mephiston literally strangled a deamon prince to death/banishment,.


Debatable, considering that M'kar the Reborn was stated to be imprisoned by the Ultramarines in a Starfort in _Iron Warrior_ at the time it took place in the Blood Angels Codex.



Angel of Blood said:


> tore a carnifex to peices again with his bare hands.


And? I'm sure Abaddon could easily replicate or surpass the feat with Drach'nyen. In addition it is hinted in the Blood Angels Codex that Mephiston's pwoers may be of a darker nature.



Angel of Blood said:


> And yeah, checking up on it the Sanguinor defeated Ka'bandha, something only Sanguinius himself or a whole load of Sanguinary Guard and Grey Knights could do.


Yes, because as I've said before Sanguior is essentially a Blood Angels Daemon Prince for all intents and purposes. For all we know it might be Sangiunius himself.



Angel of Blood said:


> Plus we have no idea what the Sanguinor is, its never been said he's a deamon of any kind, not even hinted at, regardless he is a Hero of the Imperium, so therefore fits the category.


No, he appears out of nowhere and wields supernatrual powers and is thought to be perhaps some sort of incarnation of Sanguinius. When I say ''daemon prince' for him I use it loosely, he's a daemon prince is the same mold as Saint Sabbat is a ''daemon prince'' of the Emperor. It's definitely hinted at that he is not mortal at all.

He obviously is not cut in the same mold as Dante or Calgar, no matter how you dice it. He might be considered a Hero of the Imperium, but that's stretching it.

In other words the Sanguinor is essentially a Deus ex machina personifed.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> I'm sorry then, without any kind of reliable refrence or quote I don't believe you. All information I have read have not indicated what you claim. The only White Dwarf I can find information on the First War is WD 151, and I don't see that information at all. The board game _Chaos Attack_ mentions Aurelian sacrificing himself to allow his brothers to win, but nothing about him taking Angron one on one.
> 
> If you have the actual quote it would be greatly appreiciated, but otherwise if you are just quoteing things of off memory a few years back then it is not reliable at all. That's pretty vague..


Can't honestly say i expected any less of an answer, anyone else able to help out? my heaps of White Dwarfs are back home, whenever i do next go home i will dig it out and post it all, even if i have to necro this thread massively. Most i can remmber was it was at the back of the book just before the Lord of the Rings section, not much help i know, but will save time skimming through the entire magazines. Details of the fight included chaos siege engines that poured some sort of boiling liquid over the defenders, followed some random guardsman for a bit who decribes the teleportation effects of the Knights, follows Grimnnar about before and after the battle, including his meetin with Auruelian, Auruelian himself decribing how some pysker had long ago prophesised his death and that i would be on a planet named after the 'end of days' or something similar. If that jogs anyones memories at all.




Gree said:


> Doubtful. The Chaos Gods are stated to have a plan for Abaddon. That is why he is immune to insant death. Or at least if that's if you want to bring games stats into it.


Never apply game rules to the actual fluff. Abaddon is no Deamon Prince, and despite being practicaly immortal for story purposes, their is no way the chaos gods could protect him from instant death, surely they would have done the same for Horus(admitedly a differnt case considering it was the Emperor) or Angron, or any number of chaos champions. 



Gree said:


> And that's why you obviously send the Imperium's best after him.


Auruelian wasn't even one of the highest members of the Grey Knights, and even if they are the best, they still shouldn't ''obviously'' be able to defeat Angron, like defeating deamon Primarchs is something they do in their sleep.




Gree said:


> Where does it state that? I can find nothing about that in WD 151 or the 3.5 Chaos Codex or the Space Wolves Codex thar details the First War. I even went to Angron's datasheet and I can't find that information.


Because that's generally what happens if you kill a deamons physical body, it gets banished as a consequence. Again i don't have the issue to hand, so yes i can't 'prove' it, believe im making it up all you want, doubt my integrity, what do i care, point of fact is it exists and again if i have to necro the shit out of this thread when i do find it, i will. But in essence again from memory(which i know you won't believe anyway) he manages to stab his force weapon into Angron and summons all of his power, and channels it all into Angron, who at the same time kills him with a sword of his own.




Gree said:


> Debatable, considering that M'kar the Reborn was stated to be imprisoned by the Ultramarines in a Starfort in Iron Warrior at the time it took place in the Blood Angels Codex.


Soooo the Blood Angels codex is lying? what's your source? is it more recent than the Blood Angel codex? even if it is, point is Mephiston still did it, codex isn't lying to trick you.




Gree said:


> And? I'm sure Abaddon could easily replicate or surpass the feat with Drach'nyen. In addition it is hinted in the Blood Angels Codex that Mephiston's pwoers may be of a darker nature.


Point? im merely stating Mephistons power, ripping apart a carnifex with your bare hands is no small feat




Gree said:


> Yes, because as I've said before Sanguior is essentially a Blood Angels Daemon Prince for all intents and purposes. For all we know it might be Sangiunius himself.


He's not Sanguinius, that dudes dead as Manus. They think it "may" be Azkaellon, the last surving member of Sanguinius personal guard, but even that's just rumour. It's still irrelevant, he's an Imperial Hero and therefore fits the category of the OP




Gree said:


> No, he appears out of nowhere and wields supernatrual powers and is thought to be perhaps some sort of incarnation of Sanguinius. When I say ''daemon prince' for him I use it loosely, he's a daemon prince is the same mold as Saint Sabbat is a ''daemon prince'' of the Emperor. It's definitely hinted at that he is not mortal at all.
> 
> He obviously is not cut in the same mold as Dante of Calgar, no matter how you dice it. He might be considered a Hero of the Imperium, but that's stretching it.
> 
> In other words the Sanguinor is essentially a Deus ex machina personifed.


Call him what you want, like i said above, he is still an Imperial Hero and therefore eligible for the OP's question of can any of them defeat the chaos champions


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> their is no way the chaos gods could protect him from instant death, surely they would have done the same for Horus(admitedly a differnt case considering it was the Emperor) or Angron, or any number of chaos champions.


Dude, saying that Horus's case is different is a bit of an understatement. It's the freakin' Emperor. If Abaddon had to go toe-to-toe with him (pre-corpse version obviously) there wouldn't even be cinders of his body left afterwards. If I remember correctly, the old article in white dwarf (issue 131 I think) described the blow the Emp gave Horus as being more powerful than an exploding sun. There aren't any imperial heroes who can come even remotely close to that kind of feat.



Angel of Blood said:


> Shit Mephiston literally strangled a deamon prince to death/banishment, tore a carnifex to peices again with his bare hands.


That's why I think Mephiston vs Kharn would be a hell of a matchup. Mephiston doesn't NEED his psychic powers to fuck you're shit up. Admittedly, that daemon prince M'kar annoys me coz' getting his ass handed to him seems to be his MO (didn't 5th edition codex SM also state that Calgar ripped him a new one at some stage) but I thought the carnifex feat is truly epic coz' that job is normally reserved for dreadnaughts.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Never apply game rules to the actual fluff. Angron is no Deamon Prince, and despite being practicaly immortal for story purposes, their is no way the chaos gods could protect him from instant death, surely they would have done the same for Horus(admitedly a differnt case considering it was the Emperor) or Angron, or any number of chaos champions.


Angron is not a Daemon Prince? I thought he ascended before The Seige of Terra.

And using the Emperor is no comparison. It's the freaking God-Emperor. Comparing him to Aurelius is like comparing an ocean to a cup of water.



Angel of Blood said:


> Auruelian wasn't even one of the highest members of the Grey Knights, and even if they are the best, they still shouldn't ''obviously'' be able to defeat Angron, like defeating deamon Primarchs is something they do in their sleep.


I don't recall Angrons defeat as being depicted as anything other than extremely difficult for the Grey Knights. And did't Aurelian die?

And I was talking about how to fight Angron you only sent the best to have any chance of sucess. I never meant to say it was ''easy''. Sending anything less than the Grey Knights would be unwise.



Angel of Blood said:


> Soooo the Blood Angels codex is lying? what's your source? is it more recent than the Blood Angel codex? even if it is, point is Mephiston still did it, codex isn't lying to trick you.


I already told you, Iron Warrior, the novella, by graham McNeill. It has M'Kar imprisoned aroudn the same time Mephiston suspsoedly did his feat, many years ago by Calgar before Honsou's attack on the Starfort.

And I never accused the Codex as lying, I said it was unclear since the event is depicted away from the Starfort in the Codex, thus casting it into doubt. GW articles regularly contridict each other.



Angel of Blood said:


> Point? im merely stating Mephistons power, ripping apart a carnifex with your bare hands is no small feat


I never said it was.



Angel of Blood said:


> He's not Sanguinius, that dudes dead as Manus.


Hence why I said_ Incarnation_. He could be a ghost or some warp-thing. It's certainly hinted.



Angel of Blood said:


> but even that's just rumour. It's still irrelevant, he's an Imperial Hero and therefore fits the category of the OP


That is your opinion.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Gree said:


> I'm sorry then, without any kind of reliable refrence or quote I don't believe you...
> 
> If you have the actual quote it would be greatly appreiciated, but otherwise if you are just quoteing things of off memory a few years back then it is not reliable at all. That's pretty vague.


Don't let me tell you how stupid a comment is. Please tell me you thought that licking windows is a favourite past time of yours before I pass judgement.




> Doubtful. The Chaos Gods are stated to have a plan for Abaddon. That is why he is immune to insant death. Or at least if that's if you want to bring games stats into it.


So are Daemons. But when a "mere" Grey Knight Brother Captain can banish Angron, who, using Games Rules as a guide, being a Daemon would mean he'd be Immune to Instant Death as well...



> Where does it state that? I can find nothing about that in WD 151 or the 3.5 Chaos Codex or the Space Wolves Codex thar details the First War. I even went to Angron's datasheet and I can't find that information.


Because we can all remember the fucking line numbers and paragraph numbers of quotes. Do you know the world is round? No, you've only seen pictures, and accounts of people who've apparently been all the way around it. Just because it's written down doesn't make it fact, and just because you've not personally experienced it doesn't make it a lie.



> I don't recall Angrons defeat as being depicted as anything other than extremely difficult for the Grey Knights. And did't Aurelian die?


97 Grey Knights, of which only a Brother Captain was the highest rank died in the attack against Angron and his 12 Bloodthirster Bodyguards. I'm not sure if he was killed by a Force Weapons psychic attack - it stated that as Aurelian drew power to himself, one of his Terminators dropped dead, a lifeless husk after giving everything he had left to power this attack, and it was unleashed through his Nemesis Weapon - either this was a focus, or power not represented as yet in game terms.

But the fact remains that Angron became an extremely poor general overstretching his forces, and resulting in their destruction after he wasted too much time building the Altar that would secure his Daemon's grasp on the mortal realm. And then he's the chosen of the Blood God, but he and 12 Greater Daemons were each killed by 7.4615 Grey Knights in power armour each shows just how powerful they are.

Compare Angron to Ghargatuloth - he killed 3 Grand Masters, and nearly 3 entire companies of Grey Knights before being banished for 1001 years. Then compare that to An'ggrath, who was killed by an Inquisitor Lord. Khorne's Daemons, who are apparently the best in combat getting mauled fairly easily.

Games Workshop, sort it out.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Don't let me tell you how stupid a comment is. Please tell me you thought that licking windows is a favourite past time of yours before I pass judgement.


How amusing, petty insults. If it's not part of the discussion then don't put it in. 

Regardless I don't value much unless I have a source which I can check.



Vaz said:


> So are Daemons. But when a "mere" Grey Knight Brother Captain can banish Angron, who, using Games Rules as a guide, being a Daemon would mean he'd be Immune to Instant Death as well...


Which, I said if you want to bring games rules into this..... I don't believe I said it was a hard or fast rule.



Vaz said:


> Because we can all remember the fucking line numbers and paragraph numbers of quotes. Do you know the world is round? No, you've only seen pictures, and accounts of people who've apparently been all the way around it. Just because it's written down doesn't make it fact, and just because you've not personally experienced it doesn't make it a lie.


Except all that we have of 40k is fiction written down on paper. None of it is real thus we cannot experiance it. All we have is what is written down.



Vaz said:


> 97 Grey Knights, of which only a Brother Captain was the highest rank died in the attack against Angron and his 12 Bloodthirster Bodyguards. I'm not sure if he was killed by a Force Weapons psychic attack - it stated that as Aurelian drew power to himself, one of his Terminators dropped dead, a lifeless husk after giving everything he had left to power this attack, and it was unleashed through his Nemesis Weapon - either this was a focus, or power not represented as yet in game terms.


So Aurelian did not defeat Angron by himself then? May I ask were you are getting that from? I don't recall reading that at all.



Vaz said:


> But the fact remains that Angron became an extremely poor general overstretching his forces, and resulting in their destruction after he wasted too much time building the Altar that would secure his Daemon's grasp on the mortal realm. And then he's the chosen of the Blood God, but he and 12 Greater Daemons were each killed by 7.4615 Grey Knights in power armour each shows just how powerful they are.


So in other words he was not defeated by a single Grey Knight? That's all I care about.



Vaz said:


> Compare Angron to Ghargatuloth - he killed 3 Grand Masters, and nearly 3 entire companies of Grey Knights before being banished for 1001 years. Then compare that to An'ggrath, who was killed by an Inquisitor Lord. Khorne's Daemons, who are apparently the best in combat getting mauled fairly easily.


I know, I did not write any of that. Like I said, GW's articles don't exactly make sense when compared to one another.


----------



## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Never apply game rules to the actual fluff. Angron is no Deamon Prince, and despite being practicaly immortal for story purposes, their is no way the chaos gods could protect him from instant death, surely they would have done the same for Horus(admitedly a differnt case considering it was the Emperor) or Angron, or any number of chaos champions.


you dont need to apply game rules to the fluff for Abaddon, of course he's most likely going to be immune to force weapons, considering he has the favor of all the chaos gods, you know like how things Marked with the favor of Khorne are protected from sorcery, how Tzeentch has complete mastery of sorcery, so you can imagine Abaddon with his Mark of Chaos Ascendant would be hard to kill with such weapons. So you can't really compare how easy it would be to fry a normal chaos champion to Abaddon, its like comparing a scout to a chapter master.

And as for Angron not been a Daemon prince, then what is he, 
is he some big red angry bloke who's drank to much, no is he bloody great big daemon prince. Which means he doesnt need protection from instant death, he's bloody made of warp energy, so for him its like saying hello then ill be back if hes defeated, which is what happened to him.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> Except all that we have of 40k is fiction written down on paper. None of it is real thus we cannot experiance it. All we have is what is written down.


And that makes a difference to the point made, how?



> So Aurelian did not defeat Angron by himself then? May I ask were you are getting that from? I don't recall reading that at all.


The same White Dwarf that Angel of Blood is reading from. I do not know the exact number, but, if my mind serves me correct, it was the one including the release of the new Chaos Predator (and as such had that artwork on the box), and after the release of The Two Towers, but before the release of the Return of the King - which I think would place it at the numbers of about 270-290?. That's all I can really think of, as my White Dwarfs are in Storage at the moment.



> So Aurelian did not defeat Angron by himself then? May I ask were you are getting that from? I don't recall reading that at all.


A single company of Grey Knights were sent to Armageddon to aid the Space Wolves at one of the Hives. I cannot remember which one, Hades, or Tempestora ring a bell, but like I say, can't be sure. Aurelian was in meditation but Logan Grimnar went in pissed off because of the time the preparation was taking, saying that each moment wasted loses hundreds of lives, to which Aurelian replied but how many more would be lost if they weren't fully prepared and were defeated, or words to that effect.

Then, it cuts to Khornes Bakers Dozen of Angron and his Bloodthirsters, which proceed to kill the Space Wolves and guardsmen, when the Grey Knights deep strike right in the middle of the battle, and take the fight to Angron.

As to him fighting Angron alone, I suppose you could say he did, yes, as the other Grey Knights banished the Bloodthirsters, while Angron dueled Aurellian. Then, Angron scooped him up, and tore off his arm, in return, Aurellian unleased the Holocaust/Force Psychic crazy shit, and Angron was banished, leaving just 3 Terminators alive to take the remains of the Grey Knights back to Titan.

It then cuts out to Logan Grimnar telling a young Guardsman (who's life had been saved (from the brink of death like all good climatic endings) by the teleport attack of the Grey Knights) to remember this day for the rest of his life, for he had witnessed the death of one of the greatest heroes of the Imperium.

Of course, this was a short while to remember, as he was either shot, mind scrubbed, or sent to work for penal labour as a result of cleansing the campaign.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The 'Angron not being deamon prince' was a typo, i meant Abbadon and have edited it accordingly.

So now at least one other person has confirmed the story i am talking about, yet you still choose to believe we are both lying out of our collective arses? hmmm. 

I even said it couldn't really be compared, point is none of you know that Abbadon is immune to instant death, you can't, and in the fluff their has never been any refrence ever to and individual being immune to instant death. 



> So in other words he was not defeated by a single Grey Knight? That's all I care about.


That's being pretty petty yourself, you know damn well he was making up an average part in jest and to point out the scale. If you read the short story it is pretty much one on one the whole time between them, With another Grey Knight dying nearby due to the power Aurelian was drawing.

And regarding the Sanguinator being an Imperial Hero ''being my opinion'' Sorry but what? he IS, its not an opinion, its a fact, when shit hits the fan he turns up and helps the Blood Angels and therefore the Imperium. That's like saying Calgar, Dante, Grimmnar, the loyal primarchs, any big imperial name for that matter are only Imperial Heroes if you like to think they are.

And again with Mephiston and M'Kar, he did do it, he strangled him, so the writers didn't bother checking each others time stamps, that happens alot, doensn't mean he didn't do it.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Vaz said:


> And that makes a difference to the point made, how?


Because as fiction only written works can be recognized. Thus the need for quotations.



Vaz said:


> The same White Dwarf that Angel of Blood is reading from. I do not know the exact number, but, if my mind serves me correct, it was the one including the release of the new Chaos Predator (and as such had that artwork on the box), and after the release of The Two Towers, but before the release of the Return of the King - which I think would place it at the numbers of about 270-290?. That's all I can really think of, as my White Dwarfs are in Storage at the moment.


Cool, thanks. I'll try to find it in my collection.



Vaz said:


> As to him fighting Angron alone, I suppose you could say he did, yes, as the other Grey Knights banished the Bloodthirsters, while Angron dueled Aurellian. Then, Angron scooped him up, and tore off his arm, in return, Aurellian unleased the Holocaust/Force Psychic crazy shit, and Angron was banished, leaving just 3 Terminators alive to take the remains of the Grey Knights back to Titan.


So basically without his battle brothers in a one-on-one fight with Angron Aurelian would have lost? Holocaust can only be used with the help of your battle brothers right?

Okay, thanks for the help. I'll try and find it.



Angel of Blood said:


> So now at least one other person has confirmed the story i am talking about, yet you still choose to believe we are both lying out of our collective arses? hmmm.


Nope, sorry. I never said that. Now that he has given me some quotations and a point to search I can now verify it for myself. Which is why I was asking for quotations from you.

EDIT: Found it. WD 279.

Alright, here it describes Angron killing ''with every stroke'' and appearantly taking out a large number of Grey Knights himself. Later on when Aurelian charges his powers he feels his brothers likewise doing the same. It's then described how his fellow warriors fill him with strength and Aurelian banishes Angron, but only after Angron is reduced to a half-corpreal state.

So basically Aurelian himself died in the attempt, and he only suceeded because he was supercharged by other Grey Knights. And even then he died in the atttempt. If he had fought Angron alone one on one and without his brothers he would have probably lost. Plus he got lucky in catching Angron off guard. I don't believe he would have been able to do it normally.



Angel of Blood said:


> I even said it couldn't really be compared, point is none of you know that Abbadon is immune to instant death, you can't, and in the fluff their has never been any refrence ever to and individual being immune to instant death.


How exactly do you define instant death then? One-shotting or something else?



Angel of Blood said:


> That's being pretty petty yourself, you know damn well he was making up an average part in jest and to point out the scale. If you read the short story it is pretty much one on one the whole time between them, With another Grey Knight dying nearby due to the power Aurelian was drawing.


It doesn't really sound like it to me, sorry.



Angel of Blood said:


> And regarding the Sanguinator being an Imperial Hero ''being my opinion'' Sorry but what? he IS, its not an opinion, its a fact, when shit hits the fan he turns up and helps the Blood Angels and therefore the Imperium. That's like saying Calgar, Dante, Grimmnar, the loyal primarchs, any big imperial name for that matter are only Imperial Heroes if you like to think they are.


No, not really. Calgar, Dante and the others are mortals effectively. Primarchs and the Sanguinor are clearly more than that.



Angel of Blood said:


> And again with Mephiston and M'Kar, he did do it, he strangled him, so the writers didn't bother checking each others time stamps, that happens alot, doensn't mean he didn't do it.


That however does not he did do it. Like I said, GW articles contridict each other.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> That however does not he did do it.


What?

You don't have to be mortal to be a Hero of the Imperium, the reincarnated saints are almost the same deal as the Sanguinator, they are heroes. The Primarchs while not ont he same level as Dante and the rest are clearly still heroes of the Imperium. It's never even been said that the Sanguinator is immortal, nothing concrete is known about him at all, other than the fact that he kicks extraordinary amount of chaos arse.

And how do i define instant kill? I don't know, your the one who said he was immune to it after all. But for the general designation i would go with force weapon attacks, decapitation, dismemberment, atomisation, being on a a ship when it explodes, a supernova, thrown into a star, shit i could go on, point is there had never been any suggestion Abaddon could survive any of these things or is immune to their effects


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> You don't have to be mortal to be a Hero of the Imperium,


Funny, reading the OP I got the impression otherwise.



Angel of Blood said:


> The Primarchs while not ont he same level as Dante and the rest are clearly still heroes of the Imperium. It's never even been said that the Sanguinator is immortal, nothing concrete is known about him at all, other than the fact that he kicks extraordinary amount of chaos arse.


And yet there are hints he might be something warp-touched. 



Angel of Blood said:


> And how do i define instant kill? I don't know, your the one who said he was immune to it after all.


You are the one who put out force weapons.

BTW. Angron was only slain because he was caught in a half-corpreal state and heavily weakened by the Holocaust. And that attempt cost Aurelian his life. Without a combination of luck and his brother's help he probably would not have suceeded.



Angel of Blood said:


> What?
> But for the general designation i would go with force weapon attacks, decapitation, dismemberment, atomisation, being on a a ship when it explodes, a supernova, thrown into a star, shit i could go on, point is there had never been any suggestion Abaddon could survive any of these things or is immune to their effects


Okay, then Abaddon would not survive any of those, with the possible exception of force weapon attacks.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

personally think that Kol Badar would give any ultramrine a run for thier money chaos or not the guy is a tactical genius. speaking of which i have a question the warmonger any ideas who he was i am thinking Sal Torgan, Kol Badars former Captain


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

AdonisGallus said:


> I was wondering if there were any Heroes within the Imperium who would actually be a match for the various heroes within Chaos.


Nothing their is mentioned about the hero being a run of the mill type, or about him not being 'normal' for want of a better word.

Auruellian died yes, because he got run through with a big fucking sword. I wouldn't care if whoever killed Abaddon died in the attempt, point is someone out there can do it, and tbh im going with the Sanguinator as my choice. He's killed Ka'bandha, he's an Imperial Hero, and just very powerful indeed. There are no hints he is warp touched, that is the belief of some Inquisitors and others. We no literally nothing about him, his powers, how he comes to be, nothing.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Don't let me tell you how stupid a comment is. Please tell me you thought that licking windows is a favourite past time of yours before I pass judgement.


Hey lets be easy on the new guy. Not all of us know everything fluff wise. More than often people have to look up all the fluff that was probably only touched upon once in all these years. I often have to prove my point sometimes by directly quoting somethings. 

Some people actually determine several things by the text which is interesting as well. Thats why sometimes quoting it can help other people understand certain details.

Instant Death should not be used as a term in the fluff section. The reason is because that is just a rule for the game. Can someone die "instantly" in the 40k world? Well yes, but that doesn't necessarly mean there are specific weapon/s in the 40k world that determine this. Corax survived a lascannon to the chest for crying out loud! If a guardsmen is lucky a lasgun hit to calagar in the brain can instantly kill him.

In terms of having a weapon that can instantly kill a daemon prince like Angron, it requires much pychic energy from that pycher to send that daemon back into the warp with his force weapon. A random guardsman can't go running about with the weapon and go "AHA! Angron will be my bitch today!" Also remember daemons can't instantly be killed unless you hold the "Shard of Erebus." Which only Uriel can do cause he's fucken awesome. So even if a pycher held a force weapon, he could keep stabbing it, but it will be useless that "death" comes unless the pyscher can summon enough energy to send the creature back into the warp.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Nothing their is mentioned about the hero being a run of the mill type, or about him not being 'normal' for want of a better word.


But then Uriel is mentioned, leading me to believe otherwise.

And then we have people talk about Calgar and Grimmnar in the first page.



Angel of Blood said:


> He's killed Ka'bandha,


 The fight was debatable really. He blindsided Ka'Bandha when he was't looking and got his wings with a suprise attack.



Angel of Blood said:


> There are no hints he is warp touched, that is the belief of some Inquisitors and others.


Really? That's a hint for me. He appears out of nowhere and has strange powers. That alone should hint he might be warp-touched in some fashion.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

actually after having read soul hunter I found the black legion and abaddon rather lame, it seems that the black legion and abaddon are losing it.
After having read the new BA codex I feel that mephiston is in a different league of his own
he slayed M'kar (chapter due) and killed a Carnifex with his bear hands, he would shred abaddon to bits.
Also Alaric proved to be able to take on Chaos SM,


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> actually after having read soul hunter I found the black legion and abaddon rather lame, it seems that the black legion and abaddon are losing it.


Abaddon points out to Talos. ''Who are you to know my objectives?''

Plus the chaos codex is dead clear on how the Black Legion is growing with every assault, not declining.



piemelke said:


> he slayed M'kar (chapter due)


No he did not. Calgar killed M'kar permenantly with the Shard of Erebus. Mephiston never showed up in Chapter's Due. Mephiston strangled him if we are to be believed.



piemelke said:


> and killed a Carnifex with his bear hands, he would shred abaddon to bits.


Abaddon destroyed a three-meter adamantium gate and rocked a fortress with a single swing.



> Abaddon brought death and destruction on a massive scale to the Imperium, he made unnumbered pacts with the diabolic entities of the warp in return for power beyond imagining. Led by a monstrous, golden messenger, Abaddon discovered the daemon weapon Drach'nyen beneath the Tower of Silence on Uralan and became _nigh unstoppable._
> 
> _The Chaos gods lavished unspeakable and inhuman strength upon their champion, investing him with powers beyond mortal ken_, and he repaid them in blood. At El'Phanor, his forces assaulted the Citadel of the Kromarch; a fastness built with all the cunning its designers could muster. It was pierced with but a single portal, a mighty gate of adamantium, fully three metres thick, but Abaddon cared not. He boasted that he would feast on the Kromarch's kin and led the charge of the gate himself. The Citadel was a masterpiece of military engineering and barely one in ten of Abaddon's warriors survived to reach the gate. To either side, enemy weapons prevented their retreat, _but Abaddon laughed, raising his sword wreathed in black flames high above his head and smote the gate a blow that smashed it to splinters and shook the very foundations of the citadel_. As Abaddon had promised, he and his warriors feasted upon the Kromarch.





piemelke said:


> Also Alaric proved to be able to take on Chaos SM,


What are you talking about? Alaric fought Sororitas, daemosna dn cultists in the first novel, but no Grey Knights. A bunch of Dark Mehcanicus in the second novel. And alot of daemonic gladiators in the third. I think he took on a grand total of one Chaos Marine in the third novel. And your average Chaos Marine is nothing compared to the Warmaster of Chaos.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

are you suggesting that Talos was talking bollocks, most of the other stuff sounded rather solid, I have no reason to doubt him, besides it is a very interesting perspective on Chaos, besides it fits nicely in the 40K universe not just the imperium goes down the drain, chaos SM as well, kinda Cool humanity is screwed be it on the imperium or Chaos side.

I was referring to the same demon that is also present in chapter's due, mephiston was not in that book, I was trying to make the point that mephiston throttled the demon who slapped Calgar 


referring to alaric, I was referring to the last novel, however I was under the impression that at the end of the book he reached a new level in fighting chaos making him able to take on chaos SM, 

my money is on Mephiston,


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> are you suggesting that Talos was talking bollocks, most of the other stuff sounded rather solid,


Yes. Codex Chaos states that Abaddon's Black Leigon grows with every assault he leads and it talks about how people are joining him _because_ of his sucesses. In addition in Dark Creed Madruk says that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers by 10-1. And 9,000 Word Bearers show up in that novel. Meaning 90,000 Black Legion Astartes at the very least.

Frankly, Talos's words look weird when he is flat-out contridicted in two seperate sources. The Chaos Codex flat-out contridicts him as well as the collection of Word Bearers who flat-out say Abaddon is too strong for them to confront directly.



piemelke said:


> I was referring to the same demon that is also present in chapter's due, mephiston was not in that book, I was trying to make the point that mephiston throttled the demon who slapped Calgar


M'kar was only able to stop Calgar because he had a warp engine powering him and regenerating him. Plus M'kar had a Dreadnought body. Otherwise it would have been far more equal. Remmeber, Calgar beat M'kar before according to Chapter's Due.



piemelke said:


> referring to alaric, I was referring to the last novel, however I was under the impression that at the end of the book he reached a new level in fighting chaos making him able to take on chaos SM,


Despite having not fought more than maybe 1 Chaos Marine in the book itself? No offense but that's a poor way to judge someone.



piemelke said:


> my money is on Mephiston,


I'm sorry, one-shotting a master fortress>killing a daemon prince with your bare hands.


----------



## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

The problem with an imperial hero trying to slay Luciuos the Eternal is that the hero would ultimately have to take his life afterwards because according to fluff if Luciuos's killer even so much as thinks about the act of killing him with a bit of pride Luciuos will come back.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Point is Abaddon did this with his lovely deamon sword, he didnt personally take down that gate, Mephiston with bare hands ripped the Carnifex apart, and he throtled M'Kar, why are you so determined not to believe he did it? does it annoy you in some way?

The OP started off talking about Uriel, then people mentioned other Imperial Heroes, just because no one mentioned the Sanguinator straight away doesn't mean he cant be counted. And who cares about the details on how the Sanguinator killed Ka'bandha, point is he did it. Sanguinius had a hard time defeating him, are you saying Abbadon could kill him too? You seem to be deliberatly confrentational with all your replies, not giving any ground even when people give you reliable information. Makes it seem pointless even replying


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

90000 demon strengthened chaos SM in the black legion, if that were the case the imperium would be smoldering ashes doesn't matter which source unless they lose wits for every new member.

I agree on the M'kar point

my money is still one Mephiston I want to believe the aaron dembski version


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Point is Abaddon did this with his lovely deamon sword, he didnt personally take down that gate, Mephiston with bare hands ripped the Carnifex apart, and he throtled M'Kar,


So what? How is that a point? I'm quite sure that in a fight Abaddon with be having Drach'nyen with him.



Angel of Blood said:


> and he throtled M'Kar, why are you so determined not to believe he did it? does it annoy you in some way?


I am not annoyed at all. I am simply pointing out the contridiction. Unless I see a point from GW that adresses that then it remains in doubt for me.



Angel of Blood said:


> The OP started off talking about Uriel, then people mentioned other Imperial Heroes, just because no one mentioned the Sanguinator straight away doesn't mean he cant be counted.


It did however give me the impression of the context.



Angel of Blood said:


> And who cares about the details on how the Sanguinator killed Ka'bandha,


I do.



Angel of Blood said:


> point is he did it.


By blind siding him.



Angel of Blood said:


> Sanguinius had a hard time defeating him,


In a straight up fight were Ka'Bandha has his wings intact.



Angel of Blood said:


> are you saying Abbadon could kill him too?


Nope, never said, that, don't put words in my mouth.



Angel of Blood said:


> You seem to be deliberatly confrentational with all your replies,


So do your posts. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is how you come off to me also.



Angel of Blood said:


> not giving any ground even when people give you reliable information.


I carefully consider each peice of information and conduct my own verification, as I have shown earlier. If I see a mistake I will correct it. Frequently I find out that what people have said is't what is actually written down or misrepresented. Case in point the First War for Armageddon article.



piemelke said:


> 90000 demon strengthened chaos SM in the black legion, if that were the case the imperium would be smoldering ashes doesn't matter which source unless they lose wits for every new member.


Why would they be smouldering ashes? The Imperium has Astartes of their own, plus countless billions of Imperial Guard and the second most heavily fortified sector in the galaxy blocking the Eye. and who says they are all demon-strengthened?



piemelke said:


> my money is still one Mephiston I want to believe the aaron dembski version


You can want to is you wish to, but that does not change the fact that it is heavily contridicted.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> After having read the new BA codex I feel that mephiston is in a different league of his own
> he slayed M'kar (chapter due) and killed a Carnifex with his bear hands, he would shred abaddon to bits.


Sorry, no he wouldn't. The Sanguinor is one thing because we really have no idea what his limits are but saying Mephiston would do it is pushing it a bit. I mean, I like Mephiston and think he could take on most chaos champions but you have to remember that Abaddon is the most powerful of all the chaos marines. Plus, as mentioned before, the weapons at his disposal plus the mark of chaos ascendant gives him far too much of an advantage against his loyalist counterparts. I mean, the mark of khorne will protect him from any of Mephiston's psychic attacks (I mean, if khorne gave it to Kharn then I think it's safe to assume that the champion ascendant will have similar protection), the mark of tzeentch will give him his own formidable sorcery, not to mention nurgle's mark making him harder to kill and slaanesh's enhancing his senses etc. Then add the 10 000 years of XP and give him an enormously powerful daemonsword and then tell me Mephiston will tear him to shreds. Like I said before, it's just not happeining.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

probably you are richt regarding the abaddon Mephiston hing, I just do not LIKE uber-powerfull beings that no one can beat, sort of takes away the interest.
I like the idea that CHAOS SM are just as doomed as imperial SM, 
anyhow regarding the 90K chaos SM,

When is the last time the emperium could muster 90K marines, I guess not even at armageddon (?), there are about 1000 K marines scattered over the universe getting 100 at the same point seems pretty hard, besides Abaddon would slay them all so the other 90 thousand marines could start the pire and let the smoldering begin.

90 K marines in one Chapter that is the entire reason the original legions got split up. No imperial guard army can take on 90000 uber experienced partially demon infested super Marines with a nearly unstoppable leader.

So I feel that either there are no 90 K or that Abaddon is the worst tactician in the eye of terror (and the near vicinity) not being able to get a decent foothold on Cadia with 90K marines.


----------



## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

i dont know where your getting the "daemon infested" thing from, i highly doubt 90k chaos marines would be be daemoncily infested, only a few hundred maybe and then that would be possessed marines.
I can also believe abaddon would have massive numbers at his command, dont know about 90k marines but maybe something like that, he may not have them together all the time, but when needed he can easily assemble massive numbers, dont forget that he can call up any of the traitor legions if he wanted to(even if those traitors dont like it) and any number of smaller warbands. 



Chompy Bits said:


> Sorry, no he wouldn't. The Sanguinor is one thing because we really have no idea what his limits are but saying Mephiston would do it is pushing it a bit. I mean, I like Mephiston and think he could take on most chaos champions but you have to remember that Abaddon is the most powerful of all the chaos marines. Plus, as mentioned before, the weapons at his disposal plus the mark of chaos ascendant gives him far too much of an advantage against his loyalist counterparts. I mean, the mark of khorne will protect him from any of Mephiston's psychic attacks (I mean, if khorne gave it to Kharn then I think it's safe to assume that the champion ascendant will have similar protection), the mark of tzeentch will give him his own formidable sorcery, not to mention nurgle's mark making him harder to kill and slaanesh's enhancing his senses etc. Then add the 10 000 years of XP and give him an enormously powerful daemonsword and then tell me Mephiston will tear him to shreds. Like I said before, it's just not happeining.
> Today 12:18 AM


Im glad someone else agrees with me. Abaddon is protected by the best the chaos gods can give a mortal(with turning him into a daemon prince), Mephiston is just an extra powerful marine, but still only a child to Abaddon.

Also this thing with Mephiston throttling a daemon, and Abaddon with shaking a star fort and saying he only could do it cause of his sword, well its the same for mephistopn isnt it really, he's using a tool also, called power armour, which as we all know greatly enhances a marines strength, now if you said Mephiston Throttled a daemon with his bare hands naked then that would be something to boast about but he didnt. So both where tools of a different kind, and as said Mephistion might be really powerful compared to a normal marine or even a regular chaos champion, but he would lose against Abaddon. 
Also to point out Abaddon isnt an uber powerful being, maybe to mortals, but i bet theres many a greater daemon, or prince that could beat Abaddon.

P.S just so people know im not a fan of Abaddon either, i also find him quite dull, but hes still powerful then most loyalist and traitors


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> When is the last time the emperium could muster 90K marines, I guess not even at armageddon (?), there are about 1000 K marines scattered over the universe getting 100 at the same point seems pretty hard, besides Abaddon would slay them all so the other 90 thousand marines could start the pire and let the smoldering begin.



Gettign a hundred marines at the same point? Is that what you are trying to say? you do realize there are two dozen Astartes chapters (the Praeses) that guard the Eye of Terror. No tto mention dozens upon dozens of chapters came when the 13th Black Crusade began.

No offense but you are not making yourself very clear at all.



piemelke said:


> 90 K marines in one Chapter that is the entire reason the original legions got split up.


Yes, because Chaos is not bound at all by Imperial regulations or geneseed procedures. they will happily go beyond the limit.



piemelke said:


> No imperial guard army can take on 90000 uber experienced partially demon infested super Marines with a nearly unstoppable leader.


Nope, sorry. First of all the chances of every single Black Legionary being gathered in one place are nil. Nobody puts all their eggs into once basket like that. Plus Cadia and the rest of the Guard can put out billions of Guardsmen, if not trillions, in the second most heavily fortified place in the _galaxy_. Space Marines are tough, but not invincible. If one believes that one Marine being worth ten Guardsmen (Going by Dorn's quote) then the Imperium can easily match Abaddon forces through sheer numbers. That's why he needs the other legions plus the cultists and daemons.

Chaos is tough No doubt about that. But Abaddon is facing immense numbers and some of the best fortification in the galaxy, plus other Space Marines and the Grey Knights. It's not as simple or as straightforward as you make it out to be.

And once again, who says that all Black Legionaries are daemonicaly possesed?



piemelke said:


> So I feel that either there are no 90 K or that Abaddon is the worst tactician in the eye of terror (and the near vicinity) not being able to get a decent foothold on Cadia with 90K marines.


Ummmmm, he has gotten a decent foothold. According to the latest Eye of Terror Newsletters he controls 70% of Cadia' surface. And that's not even his whole army. The rest of the Cadian sector is under attack.

Plus Cadia is the second most heavily fortified planet in the galalxy. Millions upon Millions of some of the best soldiers in the Imperial Guard, Dozens of Marine chapters, many Titan Legions and the Sisters all stand ready at the second-best fortifications in the galaxy.

Not to mention Abaddon's forces are also deployed elsewhere. The rest of the Cadia sector supplies soldiers and supplies. Rememeber the 13th Black Crusade summer event? Games were held across an entire _sector._


----------



## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

bloomin 'eck! didnt realise Abbadon had 70%! go chaos!


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

sorry I do not know how to do the quote thing,
I meant of course 100 K marines and not 100,
I do not know of a recent gathering of over 100 K marines


The chapter splitting comment was that since the legions were about 100 K marines one single legion could be a threat to te empirium so a Black legion is 100 K according to the book you mentioned (I have never read dark creed),

If Dorn mentioned a ratio of 10 to 1 he was drunk at the moment because if that were the case there would not be a reason to make marines since they are about 10^6 (this is a rough estimate) as expensive as an emperial guard soldier,
10 to 1 certainly does not count for a chaos marine, not even in open combat and certainly not in tactical combat.

90 K marines is roughly enough to stop about any imperial guard army (I think that trillions is somewhat overestimated) 90 K marines allows for about 9 K precision strikes.

I wrote partially my English is obviously not as good as yours anyhow I was trying to say that the legion is patrially posessed, I have no clue regarding the percentage.

The grey knight are only 3000 that is nothing for the mighty abaddon who will do his adamantium breaking citadel shaking trick again and utterly crash all grey knights

honestly if you can muster 90 K (of which 50 % possessed) black legion marines, that is more than plenty to take Cadia unless he cannot rally them all in which case he would be a crapy leader.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> sorry I do not know how to do the quote thing,
> I meant of course 100 K marines and not 100,
> I do not know of a recent gathering of over 100 K marines


I do, the 13th Black Crusade if my estimates are correct. Going by Index Astartes: The Emperor's Shield, twenty chapters arrived in the earlier days of the Black Crusade with many mroe arriving as it progresses.



piemelke said:


> The chapter splitting comment was that since the legions were about 100 K marines one single legion could be a threat to te empirium so a Black legion is 100 K according to the book you mentioned (I have never read dark creed),


Of course they were a threat to the Imperium, that's why the Chaos Marines recruit so much.



piemelke said:


> If Dorn mentioned a ratio of 10 to 1 he was drunk at the moment because if that were the case there would not be a reason to make marines since they are about 10^6 (this is a rough estimate) as expensive as an emperial guard soldier,


How exactly do you know how much each Marine costs compared to the average IG soldier? And besides, Dorn was noted for being intelligent and serious. I trust him more than I do your opinion.



piemelke said:


> 10 to 1 certainly does not count for a chaos marine, not even in open combat and certainly not in tactical combat.


Again, I'm inclined to trust Dorn more than you.

But let's say each Chaos Marine is worth 50 well-trained Guardsmen. The Imperium can still match those numbers, especially in the densely populated aeras of the Segmentum Obscruas and Solar.



piemelke said:


> 90 K marines is roughly enough to stop about any imperial guard army (I think that trillions is somewhat overestimated)


Codex Imperial Guard states that there are a billion IG _regiments._ That's not including PDF. And no, 90k won't be deployed in one place. Abaddon is going to have to cover in entire sector, namely the Cadian sector, and entire sector fortified and prepared for war.

(In fact the Guard codex also says they outnumber the Marines millions to one. If we take that literally then there might be as much as _quadrillions_ of Guardsmen in the universe.)

Chaos Marines are good, but the Imperium can put out a shitload of numbers. Boros Prime in Dark Creed was able to churn out ten billion Guardsmen from the planet when 7,000 Word Bearers came, and they were able to hold well with the aid of a few companies of White Consuls. (The battle istelf was inconsclusive due to the Necorns showing up to kil everyone)

That's just one hive world. We have a non-hive world in Eisenhorn putting out a 500,000 man regiment rather easily with no strain on the population. I'm putting up just planets for example. The numbers get truely immense when you factor an entire sector and then the Segmentum, let alone the Imperium as a whole.



piemelke said:


> 90 K marines allows for about 9 K precision strikes.


90,000 divided by 9,000 is 10.

Nine thousand percision strikes with only ten men? Against something as heavily guarded and prepared as Cadia? Are you joking?

Oh, and he has to take and hold Cadia. Given how fortified Cadia is that's going to be a bloody seige to say the least.



piemelke said:


> The grey knight are only 3000 th


We don't know how many Grey Knights exist. And no, Lexicanum is an unreliable source. Anyone can edit it.



piemelke said:


> for the mighty abaddon who will do his adamantium breaking citadel shaking trick again and utterly crash all grey knights


I'm not sure if you are serious here or not. The Wasmaster will only take to the field in the most important circumstances, and most likely he won't encoutner all the Grey Knights at once.

Abaddon after all, is only one man, and he needs to command his forces first.



piemelke said:


> honestly if you can muster 90 K (of which 50 % possessed) black legion marines, that is more than plenty to take Cadia unless he cannot rally them all in which case he would be a crapy leader.


Who says they are 50% possesed? You are making up numbers now.

As well as dramatically underestimating the Guard and Cadia itself. Frankly, I dont' think you realize just how dammed big the Imperial Guard can get. It's the second most heavily fortifed planet in the gallaxy for a reason. They even have their own battlefleet just for Cadia. Pretty much the only place in the galaxy which is more defended is Holy Terra itself. Throw in billions of Guardsmen plus Space Marines and it's not going to be easy.

And once again, all those Chaos Marines won't be at Cadia. Taking just Cadia won't matter unless you take out the entire Cadian sector.

Oh, and Abaddon controls 70% of Cadia. The only reason why he does not control it all is because of the Imperial fleet in orbit. And in space Chaos and the Imperium have roughly rqual numbers form what I can rememebr.

But anyway to get that far he would have to have pushed back Creed. If Abaddon is a poor commander then by your logic Creed must absolutely suck since he lost 70% of Cadia to Abaddon.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

20 Chapters = 20K marines <90 K marines, so if they were deployed they would have knocked out the 20 K got a foothold


10 to 1 come on a space marine helmet costs more than 10 imperial guard, let's take the entire armour training, gene implanting and all and you come up with a factor that is a lot a lot higher than 10, say 10^6
give a guy a lasgun a flack armour and you have an imperial guard
darn to make a SM you need years of training, gene implantation, I guess they cost more than 1000 IG,
the armour and all, how can you honestly believe 10 
Dorn was drunk or it was the only joke he ever made


90K divided by 9K is ten, excellent math 
indeed assuming one precision strike takes about 10 men 90K men can do 9K precision strikes

50 is just a ball park number I think almost 90 % of Chaos marines can muster warp spawned powers

Frankly, I dont' think you realize just how much 90 K chaos marines is
once again I do not buy it, the 90 K that is or abaddon is really crap, I want (indeed I wrote want) to believe the Dembski version


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> 20 Chapters = 20K marines <90 K marines, so if they were deployed they would have knocked out the 20 K got a foothold


Which, means twenty chapters deployed _so far._ Read my post again.



piemelke said:


> 10 to 1 come on a space marine helmet costs more than 10 imperial guard,


Proof?



piemelke said:


> let's take the entire armour training, gene implanting and all and you come up with a factor that is a lot a lot higher than 10, say 10^6


No, I don't.



piemelke said:


> how can you honestly believe 10
> Dorn was drunk or it was the only joke he ever made


Given that the quote was quite serious I trust Dorn more than I do you.



piemelke said:


> 90K divided by 9K is ten, excellent math
> indeed assuming one precision strike takes about 10 men 90K men can do 9K precision strikes


Which, won't be much against something as heavily fortified as Cadia, especially when you have to _take and hold it_. And that's before you factor in the sector and fleet requirements.



piemelke said:


> 50 is just a ball park number I think almost 90 % of Chaos marines can muster warp spawned powers


Where do you get this? I've read Storm of Iron, Iron Warrior, Dark Apostle Chapter's Due, Dead Sky, Black Sun, Soul Hunter, etc, etc, and the vast majority of Chaos Marines certainly don't manifest warp powers like you claim. Heck, even the _Word Bearers_, Chaos's most fanantical worshippers don't have more than a small elite cadre with warp powers.

Seriously, what books to do you read? It does not sound like you've read much, no offense.



piemelke said:


> Frankly, I dont' think you realize just how much 90 K chaos marines is


Oh, I do, you are pretty much ignoring the multiple examples from multiple seperate sources that I have provided. (I noticed you had nothing to counter my calculations and examples for the Guard)

I even showed that if each marine was worth _50_ Guardsmen they would still be heavily outnumbered.



piemelke said:


> once again I do not buy it, the 90 K that is or abaddon is really crap, I want (indeed I wrote want) to believe the Dembski version


That's nice. Unfourtauntely that does not fly in the facts or what's actually written down in the codices.


----------



## Lord Salie Slimander (Oct 14, 2010)

Amen! Brother!!!


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Darn I need to learn this quote thing,
anyhow,
again 20 K << 90 K
there were more coming great you do not mention how much more and again 90 K slay 20 K and take a firm grip on the sector


proof ? 
To be honest I have no proof, but everything I read (which is not all that much but) breathes that a SM is expensive with their precious genes and the precious hard to built materials, we would have to start a new question regarding price marines and IG, why go through all the trouble to get armour if it costs about the equivalent of 10 lasguns and a few helmets,

the helmet for example or glove or whatever is made from the best and rarest materials the mars guys can make full of their best high tech sensors and all,
hey even the cost of flying in the stuff from Mars costs more than 10 IG
no again no numbers just comon sense

ok 10^6 might not be the most accurate calculation bit darn more and a lot more than 10

Trusting Dorn more than common sense makes no sense

the precision strikes, I was not only referring to Cadia but also commanders of the billions of IG, armouries, ... all the stuff that SM are famous for

no offense taken I do not read that much but I recall (not sure which book), this black legion SM taking out an imperial fist heritage line, that entire squad was corrupted.
Anyhow the point I was trying to make is that on average a Chaos SM is way stronger than an empirium SM, either through long experience, corruption or both, and I guess a few newbies are the equivalent

I guess the main point is do we believe the authors you refer to saying that the black legion is extremely large and powerfull, or Bowden who writes that the black legion and all the Chaos SM are going down the drain

I rather believe the second


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

piemelke said:


> again 20 K << 90 K


I know, that's why I said more are coming.



piemelke said:


> there were more coming great you do not mention how much more and again 90 K slay 20 K and take a firm grip on the sector


Not when they are supported by the Imperial Guard across an entire sector's worth of troops. I will once again point out you have ignored my sources from multiple different books and codices on just how many Guardsmen the Cadian sector can produce.



piemelke said:


> proof ?
> To be honest I have no proof, but everything I read (which is not all that much but) breathes that a SM is expensive with their precious genes and the precious hard to built materials, we would have to start a new question regarding price marines and IG, why go through all the trouble to get armour if it costs about the equivalent of 10 lasguns and a few helmets,


So you have no proof then correct?

But regardless, even if each marine was worth fifty or a hunderd they would still be outnumbered by the Guard.



piemelke said:


> Trusting Dorn more than common sense makes no sense


Because we have an in-universe quote from a primarch known for being stoy compared to your dubious opinion. I do with Dorn any day.




piemelke said:


> the precision strikes, I was not only referring to Cadia but also commanders of the billions of IG, armouries, ... all the stuff that SM are famous for


Cool, but guess what? all that's heavily fortifed and under guard. Good luck. On average Marines dont' lauch surgical strikes at targets as heavily fortifed and guarded as Cadia. Simply because most targets are not as fortifed as the second msot heavily fortifed place in the galalxy.

Oh, and you have to spread your Astartes for the rest of the sector as well. Just taking out a small portion of officers at Cadia won't do any good if renforcements can arrive.



piemelke said:


> no offense taken I do not read that much but I recall (not sure which book), this black legion SM taking out an imperial fist heritage line, that entire squad was corrupted.


I knwo which short story you speak of. It's in a victory of the Space Marines. They had mutations, and only some of them. Not actual warp power like daemonic possesion. As I recall there was only one who actually had mutations that were meant for combat. and even only the Captain had anything that hinted to actual daemonic possesion at the end.



piemelke said:


> Anyhow the point I was trying to make is that on average a Chaos SM is way stronger than an empirium SM, either through long experience, corruption or both, and I guess a few newbies are the equivalent


No, corruption does not awlays equal strength and due to the Eye of Terror many Chaos Marines are quite young. Remember for Talos and co. it was only a century since the Heresy. They actually struggled against a Blood Angels combat squad at the end of the book.



piemelke said:


> I guess the main point is do we believe the authors you refer to saying that the black legion is extremely large and powerfull, or Bowden who writes that the black legion and all the Chaos SM are going down the drain
> 
> I rather believe the second


Actually no. Bowden writes about one warband. Talos even notes in the novel that the Black Legion don't need to hide from the Imperium and have no shortage of slaves or weapons. In fact most of the anti-Black Legion stuff in the novel comes form Talos himself who already has admtited he despises the Black Legion and is biased naturally. (In fact Abbadon really treats Talos with a kind of detatched amusement with his comments. It was only at the end when Abaddon realized that Talos was not going to join him did he shoot Talos.)

And only Talos's warband is depected as going down the drain. Talos and the 10th Comapany do not repsresent all Night Lords or all Chaos Marines. Talos is not meant to represent all Chaos marines. (He even notes that the 10th Company is not the same) The attack on Crythe was noted to be essentially a large-scale raid away from the Eye of Terror. (Abbadon was only there for the factories and he intended to withdraw before the Blood Angesl arrived) and only a small portion of the Black Legion would have been really present.

So really you only have Talos's point of view and admittedly biased opinion. What little we do see of Abaddon show him to be rather cunning, only driven back because of bad luck that the Blood Angels arrived early. In fact Talos is not even a good example of a Chaos Marine, he does not even worship Chaos.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The debate about how many guardsman per marine isn't really possible to figure out for sure. It all depends on the marines as well as the IG they're fighting. Dorn said it's a ten to one ratio, in the beginning of every HH books it states a 100 or more per marine, and a few other fluff sources also contradict these numbers. I think the Dorn one is a gross underestimation of what a marine is capable of. I mean, if it really only took ten random guardsman on average to kill a marine, then why bother spending several years in a long and tedious process of training and preparing a marine for war when you could train thousands of guardsman in that same timeframe.



yanlou said:


> Also to point out Abaddon isnt an uber powerful being, maybe to mortals, but i bet theres many a greater daemon, or prince that could beat Abaddon.


How about Daemon Prince Lorgar vs Abaddon the Despoiler? But that's a discussion for another thread. Don't wanna stray too far off topic.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> The debate about how many guardsman per marine isn't really possible to figure out for sure. It all depends on the marines as well as the IG they're fighting. Dorn said it's a ten to one ratio, in the beginning of every HH books it states a 100 or more per marine, and a few other fluff sources also contradict these numbers. I think the Dorn one is a gross underestimation of what a marine is capable of. I mean, if it really only took ten random guardsman on average to kill a marine, then why bother spending several years in a long and tedious process of training and preparing a marine for war when you could train thousands of guardsman in that same timeframe.


If course, even if Marines were worth fifty or a hundred Guardsmen the Guard would still be able to match the marines through sheer numbers. Read the Guard Codex or read about the 500,000 man regiments in Eisenhorn that get churned out rather easily. Or the whole set of calculations I showed you.

Look at the invasion of Boros. Marduk mentions that it takes around forty or fifty Guardsmen to kill a Marine. Yet there are ten billion Guardsmen on the planet vs. 7,000 Chaos Marines. In other words there about twelve hundred Guardsmen for each Marine. ( A Guard character claims that the Guard are slowly but surely grinding the Word Bearers down, since their advance has slowed considerably) That's just a single hive planet, let alone a sector or Segmentum. And these Guardsmen were mentioned as fighting without renforcements, because the Word Bearers blocked off the system by the warp. Imagine if the Imperium had been actually able to send renforcements.


----------



## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

Boys, this is getting intense, I like it, I'm gonna have to say that Dorns estimate was probably in a siege environment cause Dorn was a siege expert and so he would've always gone by a sieges figures, anyway, those 90k> or <20K is completely wrong, there would be many factors involved, how many Guardsmen, how many Cultists, what environment (Siege, open battle.)
And on the Abbadon Pwning everything, I thing the current rules he has grossly underestimates what he is, but I think its the same for Papa Smurf and Lysander, cmon, a millenia in the Warp and only Eternal Warrior and an extra wound. Wow, thats some powerful stuff.
But if anyone would match Abbadon I would say Papa Smurf or Dante. cause remember, Calgar is said to being second to Guilliman in the amount of chapters he has in the Chapters librarium, and for the Daemon sword and talon v.s Guantlets. He took an Avatars Sword on them, that was said to destroy most weapons, but not the Guantlets, "No other Guantlet could have withstood that mighty blow nor the furious heat behind. But not the fabled Guantlets of Ultramar were of older and sterner make, crafted with skill and technology long lost to the race of Man" Pg. 35 Ultramarines Codex, then he goes on to kick the Avatars arse. So I reckon, and this is just a personal assumption. The fight would be hard but even for all of his skill and Smurfness, I reckon Calgar would die but Abbadon would be nearly on his deathbed as well. But if GW were to have a say in it, Abbadon would do something like draw a daisy instead of his Daemon Sword and get absolutely raped by Calgar.
Damn you GW


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well i can think of one particular instance in which just a dozen guardsman killed 5 chaos marines. All depends on which guardsman are fighting, which marines they are fighting and the situation


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Bit of necro-work on the go here, but i said i would give the source for Armageddon when i found it again. The White Dwarf which has the article on the first war for Armageddon detailing Aurellians battle with Angron is WD.279 pg105 onwards


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Bit of necro-work on the go here, but i said i would give the source for Armageddon when i found it again. The White Dwarf which has the article on the first war for Armageddon detailing Aurellians battle with Angron is WD.279 pg105 onwards


I've already got the article online. GW has it in their online White Dwarf archives.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well balls, oh well, least spending an hour searching through WD articles staved off boredom for a while


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

ithink the Abaddon thing is more his name that will last eternally, although i think he is pretty hard to kill i don't believe it is impossible just not quite as easy as a less powerful chaos lord. 
Abaddons name strikes fear into most marines and inquisitors but then again he is the warmaster of chaos for a reason and has the power to bring the others under his banner.
I think Dante might be able to go toe to toe with him and possibly Mephiston but this is my opinion and i am probably wrong


----------

