# Are bolters still caseless?



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

Remebering way back in the day.... a bolter was described as a weapon that fired self-propelled bolts, akin to a rocket in effect. A primary charge ignited and provided enough propellant to eject the entire round through the breech, upon exit the projectiles' secondary propellant would ignite and propel the round. As such, the design did not utilize a case for holding the chemical propelling and expel a single projectile (bullet). I'm pretty sure (don't have the 5th ed in front of me) that is was still described in this way...

I was curious, after looking at some artwork and whatnot, is this not the case? Many depictions of marines w/ bolters show spent shell causing being ejected. It's not a big deal - artistic license and whatnot - but I was just wondering I'd expect spent casings to be ejected for ACs or other more traditional weps used in the 40K universe for sure.


----------



## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

I too remembered bolters as firing caseless ammo, but I now think that maybe I was mistaken. I had a conversation about this with someone a while back and they said that bolts were never caseless - I was certain he was mistaken and went through my old books to prove him wrong but then couldn't find any reference to caseless ammo.

Do you have a reference where it says that bolts were/are caseless? I'd love to be able to show my friend where it says so.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Bolters have ejection ports. Therefore It is likely they fire shells with casings. Yes, it is also where they charge the gun, rack it, but there would be no need for a port unless there were spent casings being ejected... Although it could be there to allow the user to remove jams but I find the former more likely.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

It is possible that because their are different types of bolters, as they came out with better types and designs over time, that some are caseless and others are not. The overall design, which would include the ejection port, might be included in all designs to make it so all bolter variants are able to use either type of ammunition.


----------



## calon (Jul 12, 2010)

The standard bolt round does have a casing which is executed. The bolts work like a modern day two-stage rocket. When fired, a conventional charge is set off, projecting the round from it's case and out of the barrel. Then, once free of the barrel itself, a timed second charge detonates. This propels the round with it's solid-rocket fuel at a much greater speed.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

calon said:


> The standard bolt round does have a casing which is executed. The bolts work like a modern day two-stage rocket. When fired, a conventional charge is set off, projecting the round from it's case and out of the barrel. Then, once free of the barrel itself, a timed second charge detonates. This propels the round with it's solid-rocket fuel at a much greater speed.


Correct - however IIRC (this was like 15 years ago...) that the entire projectile was considered a single unit hence calling it a bolt. In normal 2 stage deployments, you would not typically the projectile+propellant to exit it's launch vehicle (case), rather the entire piece simply acts as a missile. As such, having a case (and ejection of said case due to the expansion of gases acting upon another mechanism) wouldn't seem needed.

I can still see having ejection ports on a rocket device. If the projectile jammed or otherwise failed to ignite, a manual ejection would be required. Having ports latterally on either side would speed a misfire condition.


The bolt itself is described as follows:









Internal Details 

1.A solid-fuel rocket propellant base 
2.An outer casing containing conventional charge 
3.Gyrostabilizer 
4.Mass-reactive fuse. Has a split-second timer to delay detonation upon impact until after the shot penetrates the target. 
5.Hardened diamantine penetrating tip. This allows for the bolt to penetrate most armour before detonation. 
6.Main Charge 
7.Depleted deuterium core. This is a very dense material, adding weight and thus momentum to the round when in flight. This aids in the bolt's penetration of the victim. 


It doesn't look like there is a primary and secondary casing (inner and outer)


----------



## calon (Jul 12, 2010)

The 2ed indicator is part of the case. If you take a look at various artwork inside the Space Marine codex, every picture of a bolter being fired shows it ejecting cases.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

calon said:


> The 2ed indicator is part of the case. If you take a look at various artwork inside the Space Marine codex, every picture of a bolter being fired shows it ejecting cases.



The fact that it has a rim is indicitive of being a 2-stage design (ie: expells a case), but the picture isn't outlined to show that. As it shows, the primer (in the base of the grey section) would have nothing to act upon - there is no bulkhead or other material to enact upon to expell the round... 

I guess the actual design is closer to a 40mm grenade (Mk 19...hellovalot of fun to fire) which still ejects (more like drops) a small case. 










It's not descibed very well, and I still swear at one point the bolter even lacked ejection ports....

Either way, just curious and apeasing my inner machine spirit


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

calon said:


> The 2ed indicator is part of the case. If you take a look at various artwork inside the Space Marine codex, every picture of a bolter being fired shows it ejecting cases.


That can actually be chalked up to artistic license rather than how it is actually intended.

If you have a gun that fires an inordinate amount of bullets but otherwise does nothing else, having it depicted spewing fire looks a lot cooler. A case-less round might sound interesting, but when your laying down a swathe of shots into an oncoming horde, it looks much cooler to have bullet casings raining down around your feet.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> That can actually be chalked up to artistic license rather than how it is actually intended.
> 
> If you have a gun that fires an inordinate amount of bullets but otherwise does nothing else, having it depicted spewing fire looks a lot cooler. A case-less round might sound interesting, but when your laying down a swathe of shots into an oncoming horde, it looks much cooler to have bullet casings raining down around your feet.


I think this is what happened a long time ago. I remember the old codex (the yellow one?) showing marines fireing but no shells. Now we have cases. Either way, the description was still left vauge of how it works (as much as one can describe the workings of a fictional weapon  ).

I can accept either solution as acurate. Having a small host delivery system (ie: the shell/case) still fits with the bolters design, but it seems redundent given how high-tech the round actually is at it's heart. Either way, it's all good. If it's exploding heretics and xenos alike, then its doing the job


----------



## Fleshgolem (Jul 15, 2010)

i remember reading that bolter-ammo was caseless in the first publications; i'm not sure whether rogue trader or rule book

the current fluff states that bolter rounds leave "spent shells" and bolt guns are shown having ejection ports

so, _currently_ bolters do not fire caseless ammo


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

GW art strikes again, in most pictures Sanguinius is shown wearing Golden Armour and having blond hair- yet in A Thousand Sons he's described as wearing armour the colour of rubies and hair a deep black in shade.

Edit: just checked my 3rd edition rulebook- it's got a technical diagram of a bolter and it specifically points out the ejection port, it doesn't mention the bolts being caseless in fact it even points out the outer case in the diagram of the standard bolt.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well at least we know CSM bolters fire cased rounds, since they have ammo belt feeds which clearly show cased rounds.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Well at least we know CSM bolters fire cased rounds, since they have ammo belt feeds which clearly show cased rounds.


All bolter rounds have cases - the quesiton was did they cast off their housing (case) upon ignition. Both scenarios work - in my mind, since the entire object is the "bolt", it made more sense for the whole thing to be propelled out the barrel, rather than just a part of it. If there is a parent case that houses a child bolt object, then the"bolt" is better defined as a self guided/propelled bullet than a missile in IMHO.


(Stage 1 ignition) O# -- O# -- O#| (exit) - O< (seporate) --# (stage 2 ignition) (accelerate)#------#--------#--------#--------- !!! (impact)

Meh, it's still a cool concept. Interesting that it creates negative recoil due to vac


----------



## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

MadMaxx said:


> All bolter rounds have cases - the quesiton was did they cast off their housing (case) upon ignition.


yes, some art I've seen have the bolter shooting, and used cases flying off the gun!:biggrin:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If it has a case it dumps it.


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

Enemies of the Emperor fear my MSPAINT skills...










Seems like added effort to create the parent casing and seporation requirement...but oh well.


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

MadMaxx said:


> Enemies of the Emperor fear my MSPAINT skills...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about anyone else, but I thought that pic was ace  Especially the little sparks as it fires off!


----------



## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

I took a look back at some of the older books I have (including Space Marine- the game) and most of the images of astartes firing their bolt-weapons also include spent casings being ejected from the guns.

If you are registered on the website of the up-coming 'Ultramarines' movie there is the image of a spent bolter shell in the concept design section.


----------



## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

Fleshgolem said:


> i remember reading that bolter-ammo was caseless in the first publications; i'm not sure whether rogue trader or rule book


That's what I remembered too, but when I looked back I couldn't find any reference to it. I wonder if the idea that bolter-ammo was caseless is just an urban-myth type thing and was never actually said by GW...


----------



## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

In the book of the astronomicon there is an Imperial Administrator/Quartermaster character who is unpopular for criticising marines for not stopping to pick up their spent cases from their bolters in battle (wasting the emperor's precious resources)


----------



## MadMaxx (Jun 17, 2010)

From the new Ultramarines movie concept art:










Guess that answers that quesiton


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

kaled said:


> That's what I remembered too, but when I looked back I couldn't find any reference to it. I wonder if the idea that bolter-ammo was caseless is just an urban-myth type thing and was never actually said by GW...


It's funny, because I was under the same impression.


----------



## Halki Haxx (Mar 6, 2011)

I have some 1st edition sprue that includes bolters and they have no ports


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I thought rogue trader (first edition) marines were all pewter?

Also, check post dates, the last one before yours Halki Haxx was seven/eight months ago.


----------



## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

darkreever said:


> I thought rogue trader (first edition) marines were all pewter?
> 
> Also, check post dates, the last one before yours Halki Haxx was seven/eight months ago.


I think that when Compendium came out, the 1st plastics were released.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

In the Rogue Trader book, Bolters were described as firing "caseless ammunition", but apparently the art team didn't get the memo, or maybe who wrote it didn't know what it meant and just thought it sounded cool, because even in the same book, the art shows bolters ejecting spent shells.
these days, the only weapon that is said to have caseless ammunition is the Assault Cannon, and in that case it makes sense.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

With absolutely no knowledge of if this is feasible or not...
I have seen posted (in one of the discussions of this topic that pop-up on most fora), that if the Bolt was caseless, then it would have a single-stage propellant. With cased, a small charge would have to go first to get the Bolt out of the barrel, because the barrel wouldn't be able to take the pressure of the full, single-stage, charge that gets the Bolt up to speed and into bodies in the caseless variant. However, what if the ejection port also acted as a vent to drop the barrel pressure during firing of a caseless-variant Bolt that only has one propellant charge? This might mean that you could have cased and caseless Bolts, and the Bolters would be designed to fire both.
This could allow a reason for the difference in the intial plastics, as the newer cased ammo hadn't been developed/become widespread. Now, with both types of ammo available, the Bolters are given a dual-purpose vent/ejection port, depending on what the Chapter feels is the best ammo for the job.
Pulling all of that out of my arse really hurt!

GFP


----------



## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

On the cover art of the Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader book from 1987 there are no casing ejected. However there is smoke coming out from the "ejection ports". Gas vents?


----------



## captain wood (Dec 4, 2010)

i couldnt care less if the bolters had cases or not all i know is that they own chaos bitchs and that i would rather have a chain sword or my trusty crozious


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Anfo said:


> I think that when Compendium came out, the 1st plastics were released.



The first plastics were released at the time of the rogue trader, the same plastic beakies shown inside fighting the old metal orks. Box of thirty for a tenner with missile launchers and flamers included


----------

