# TL Lascannon on a Razorback?



## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

Would you put a TL Lascannon on a Razorback YES or NO and how would you use it?
Maybe as a cheap EXTRA tank since it doesn't count against your heavy in the points chart.And use it as a free tank buster.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its a bit expensive for an AV11 vehicle but it is a nice boost to firepower... yes I have put a TLLC on a razorback and yes it did perform well but I would only use it in a mech list: target numbers helps to protect it from being shot at so it just works as a cheap predator... if its one of a couple of vehicles then it'l take a lot of fire and will be shreaded pretty quickly.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

I generally think they are a bad choice, there are much better ways to get heavy weapons on the board. If you are running with small squads (5-6 man) and are assault oriented I would consider them as a cover-your-ass option if you find something you need to have killed at range.

I use a couple in my Space Wolf army. Mostly to take care of Vindicators, Walkers, or Ork Battlewagons.

Rix


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

One of the nastiest SM armies I saw was TLLC razorback spam:

character
dread with upgraded weapon
dread with upgraded weapon
5 man Tac squad with TLLC razorback
5 man Tac squad with TLLC razorback
5 man Tac squad with TLLC razorback
5 man Tac squad with TLLC razorback
5 man Tac squad with TLLC razorback
vindi
vindi
vindi
= ~1500pts

10 vehicles, the 5 weakest all have weapons capable of popping tanks pretty easily (unless its a LR/monolith), the 2 dreads can be upgraded to be evil (such as with plasma cannons.. or whatever you want/need) and the vindis are cheap and nasty. You lack any sort of combat but then you shouldnt really get into combat... and if you get worried by gribblies in cover change a vindi or 2 over to whirlwinds. The razorbacks shread light-medium vehicles and heavy tanks can be brought down by concentrated fire or by vindicator.


EDIT- ofc the other option is to use TL assault cannons insteaad.. same price as the TLLC but will mow down pretty much everything and anything you might want to kill (and for 15pts cheaper then an assault cannon LS:tornado).


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't think any of the weapon upgrade options are worth it for a Razorback. They're extremely cheap already and should probably stay that way as they're too soft to be spending tons of points on. A twin-linked lascannon costs almost as much as the Razorback itself...


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

as a speed feaky ork (nor purly) I hate em... I hate em as soon as I have no long range weapon and how many ork long range weapons are there that can take down Rhinos reliably?

well there are lootaz ... and what

but those pesky Lascans take apart my Pikkupz and endanger my Battle wagons as their sides are wwaaaaaaaayyyyyy to broad :grin:

if you know your opponent is gonna field alot of mecha himself ... those Razorbacks with Lascans can be the stuff to take down his transports ... that is my experience


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

I have 2 Razorbacks with TLLC,and a Predator with TLLC for armor penetration.And a Dakka PRED,and a Devastator squad with 4ML for mass casualties in the same 1000point army.

I am basicaly using the 2 razorbacks for cheap tanks they only have tac squads of 5 each in them.

It sounds good on paper "though" have not ran it yet 3 LC,and 4 ML going same round in a 1000 point army then my Dakka Pred rolls in with its Auto Cannon and Heavy Bolter sides,to mop the floor.

Its team play 2 person each with 1000 points and my partner is all up close and take objectives I am the stay back and rain down hell upon the enemy guy this time.


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

now hacknslashgamer ... imagine this in a SW-Army on 200 points ... 3 drop pods 2 Razorbacks in combination with a Pred and another Pred and baddass SW ... my friend plays such a list and it works... as I said he often ruins my day if I don't field Lootaz


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

It all depends on the synergy of your army and whether you need to fire from the fire point of the rhino or have the spare 40 points to spend. I use one in my army and I find it highly effective for the extra points. It is a toss up to me of whether having an extra terminator or the twin linked las, but I find the twin linked las more benifical generally.

My list is also highly mechanised so there are alot of better targets for the enemy to shoot at.


With regard to the twin linked assault cannon, I have played against one, but for the points I think you would be better off with either las cannon option.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Most things when spammed work well, much like ham mmm...

But yes Razorbacks are great fire support If I had a 10 man Dev i'd still take one with a TLLC to give me that I shoot your vehicles down whilst my Dev's shoot something else.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

With my old SW codex I did the math- it was cheaper to have a unit of 3 TLLC razorbacks then 4LCs in a LF unit (3 TL = 4 normal at BS4), that could shoot 3 units not 2 and instead of having 5 MEQs I had 3 AV11 vehicles (being a vehicle they effectively have either a 3+ save vs normal weapons or 4+ vs AP1... but other dmaage results can get annoying)... only problem I came accross was trying to use 3 transport slots (pretty much all my units used rhinos anyway).
Things will have changed now but they are still nice options (especially if you happen to have a unit that isnt going to use its transport slot otherwise).


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I rate razorbacks, so long as they fit with the unit they are carrying. The transport should always be subordinate to its contents so razorbacks tend to work best for units that aren't in much of a hurry anyway.

I'm considering running one in a space wolf list. I'd have a unit that hang back, either some grey hunters for objectives or 5 long fangs with 4 missile launchers. A razorback with a lascannon (either twin linked or paired with plasma) could be handy.

Personally I do prefer the variant with las/plas, just about. There isn't much in it but having two guns, and potentially 3 shots at AP2, seems nice.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Guard do lascannon spam a lot better than Marines, IMO the marine book is just not made for lascannon spam. 6 Lascannons or whatever you had in that 1500 point list isn't really that much.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Lascannon spam in a Marine army and lascannon spam in a Guard army are pretty much two different things. The cheapest lascannons Marines can field are on 75 point transports, whereas the Guard can take a lascannon in a squad of infantry for the same number of points and can field a fast skimmer with three of them (which are twin-linked no less!) for less than 150.

Six lascannons at 1,500 points is a fairly large number when it's a Space Marine army we're talking about.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's not really a question of spamming lascannons; it's about fielding any at all. For a while now I've largely ignored lascannons, irritated at paying so much for them, but the truth is sometimes they are what's needed.

Marine lascannons aren't like guard ones, which tend to be in batteries. Marines more often get independent lascannons. Even just a couple of these will make quite a difference if you are up against things like obliterators.


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

.. or light vehicles like Pikkupz ... landspeeders (which just need a immobalized to fall down) etc... as I wrote:
Lascans can ruin my bright speed freaky orky day


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

I just feel that, in the majority of cases, Marines should take advantage of the fact that they have something not many armies have (mobile melta) and use that for AT, and dedicate the rest of the army to anti-infantry. Lascannons (in most cases, but not all) are outcompeted for the AT role by fast melta.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

I know this is a wee bit of the subject, but if you play with IA-volumes then there is one dead solid weapon upgrade for Razorbacks, namely Twin-linked MultiMelta for not a single point:shok::biggrin:

Take a look here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA2Update28Aug.pdf


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Well yeah, but that's a bit of an odd one, and serves to illustrate why a lot of people view forgeworld rules with suspicion. Personally I rarely play in any environment that routinely allows forgeworld stuff, as all major tournaments seem to have banned them.

The thing about mobile melta is that, when playing against somebody with a lot of long-ranged AT, it soon ceases to be mobile. Also sometimes getting right up in front of a target isn't the best option, when the target is a rhino full of zerkers with a daemon prince next to it. There's also a strong argument for killing said rhino (and daemon prince if possible) before they come to you.

Some melta is certainly essential, but it actually isn't the only thing marines do well. I'm finding missile spam to be very effective at weakening enemy movement, with meltas as back up. I see lascannons as something as a luxury to take on top of the krak missiles, but they are welcome when they appear.

Another thing is that missiles tend to fire a lot of times and meltas tend not to. Meltas also rarely fire on turn one, unless going second. A single melta shot is always better than a missile but you tend to get quite a lot more missiles fired for your points and often to kill things earlier, which is always better. I've dropped five of eight nobz bikers with krak missiles on turn one of a game, for example, before they started turbo-boosting around. That was cool.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

If I can I always field las cannons for anti tank. The percentages versus a missile launcher for taking down any type of vehicle is not comparable. I always prefer to take a sniping las cannon in a tactical squad as if the points allow, opposed to a missle launcher despite the supposed multi purpose of the launcher.

The missile launcher really only allows you to realistically target armour 12. 

I started out my marines by using Vulcan, but found that I could be out ranged unless I chucked in a predator and some other fun stuff and then the benefits of taking Vulcan were signifficantly reduced.

As Someguy said, sometimes you don't want to get in the opponents face to melt them, and if you have no ranged alternatives it can serverly hammer your options and chances of success.

On the face of it 75 points for a razorback may seem expensive, (especailly compared to guard), but for the uses and context of a marine army it is a nice litle toy that forfills it's purpose very well. An AV11 bunker which can move and fire a BS4 twin linked Str 9 shot at 48 inches.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I agree with someguy... yes melta is more effective at taking out vehicles but sometimes a well placed lascannon shot is just the right tool for the job. 
Missile launchers are a good tactic and the combo of ML and melta spam is powerful but it would take up a lot of your army.. meaning you are probably quite vulnerable to combat or 2+ armour.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I pretty much argee with everything that is being said here. Melta+Missles are great, but if you can squeeze in a couple of twin-lascannons, then they will be a great boost. That being said, Space Marines can't spam Las like Guard can, but that doesn't mean they should avoid it entirely. Most of this has been said, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents anyway


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