# Kharn's Butcherhorde



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Just got a look at this formation. 

Combat sucks, we know this, it's 7th edition. The weaknesses of being a combat army aren't outweighed. But if you're a diehard Khornate fighter based army, consider taking this detachment as an addition to the typical baseline.

Kharn, +4 CSM Space Marine Units with MoK, and 4 units of Zerkers. Comes in at 920 minimum.

It brings nothing new to the table, apart from MOAR death - not only do you get to double your attacks if you roll 8 (exactly, not 8 or more, higher than 7, just EXACTLY 8, Khorne's sacred number), then you get to double your attacks profile (so 8 attacks for Kharn, just saying), but each roll of 6 to attack with generates additional hits (which can also generate attacks provided you keep rolling 6's).

It's completely free, so if you're bringing Kharn and 20+ Marines and 20+ Zerkers, consider taking this formation.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

The 8 thing sounds kinda cool.

Fluff + rules = neat


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Problem is it just seems terrible on so many levels

I think you could make quite a good army with Kharn and berzerkers as your troops, but with two or three units of berzerkers maximum (in transports). Then almost everything else would have to be fast pressure units like bikes, maulerfiends, flesh hounds, maybe a bloodthirster etc. 

If only the formation was something like Kharn and three or four units of berzerkers, with the formation allowing you to assault out of rhinos. As it is you'd pay a massive amount of points for units that are great at killing infantry but not much else


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Squire said:


> Problem is it just seems terrible on so many levels
> 
> I think you could make quite a good army with Kharn and berzerkers as your troops, but with two or three units of berzerkers maximum (in transports). Then almost everything else would have to be fast pressure units like bikes, maulerfiends, flesh hounds, maybe a bloodthirster etc.
> 
> If only the formation was something like Kharn and three or four units of berzerkers, with the formation allowing you to assault out of rhinos. As it is you'd pay a massive amount of points for units that are great at killing infantry but not much else


But if you're playing a game for fun and your opponent isn't abusing your weaknesses it's not a big deal.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> But if you're playing a game for fun and your opponent isn't abusing your weaknesses it's not a big deal.


The problem is that it takes practically ZERO effort to abuse this "formation", Unless the CSM squads are taking melta guns to potentially offset any armor or MCs then you are pretty much boned.

----

Side note, when did "formations" become so utterly huge for the minimum requirements?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I just... want back the formation of Huron's biker-horde of 5 squads of bikes that can assault after turbo-boosting. Alas, Apocalypse 2.0, you were too good to last...


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Vaz, in which book this formation has been printed? standalone?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I think it's an Advent Day formation, like Kranon's Hellguard.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Mossy Toes said:


> I think it's an Advent Day formation, like Kranon's Hellguard.


Correct, it's the 25th of December advent reveal


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Fallen said:


> Side note, when did "formations" become so utterly huge for the minimum requirements?


Ah, for every good one there's a stupid 'bring a bajillion units' one. Grey Knight Brotherhood comes to 2095 without upgrades.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Fallen said:


> The problem is that it takes practically ZERO effort to abuse this "formation", Unless the CSM squads are taking melta guns to potentially offset any armor or MCs then you are pretty much boned.
> 
> ----
> 
> Side note, when did "formations" become so utterly huge for the minimum requirements?


You do have another CAD though, which you can load up with AT. It probably isn't advisable for sub 2k games, but for a 165pt tax, you can pick around 800pts of AT up if you need. Like said, it is not Archangels or Adamantine Lance - but if you are taking 20+ zerkers and 20+ CSM anyway then it doesn't really cost you anything to use. 

As for AT you have 4 meltagun, 4 combi melta, and 8 plasma pistol shots potentially. Not that shabby.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Vaz said:


> As for AT you have 4 meltagun, 4 combi melta, and 8 plasma pistol shots potentially. Not that shabby.


...stuck on Infantry, so... kinda shabby.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Care to explain why they are so bad for infantry? They are not Bikes, sure. But unless you are playing on a billiard table you should be able to protect your units adequately enough until they get to the target. They can put a decent hole in an enemy unit. They shred infantry, deal much more damage against MEQ's than their points suggest, and they can strip HP's from tanks or dreadnoughts which are hard counters for them.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I've been playing CSM melee lists for a while, and Infantry... are just too damn slow. If you want to shoot, that's a mere 6" per turn you're moving--if running, you're going to average 9-10" per turn. Eldar will kite you as long as they want, shredding you in a few turns with relative ease. Tau will bow you to smithereens long before you get close. Even things like... BA Vindis with overcharged engines and Baal Preds.

And if you're not playing on a billiard table, then you are even slower with difficult terrain tests, even if you occasionally get a 5+ or 4+ against AP3 shooting. So, slow, unless you spend an exorbitant number of points on up to 8 Rhinos, which still limit your assaults (which this formation is all about).

Plus you have the range falloff--beyond 12", your 4 melta, 4 combi-melta, and 8 plasma pistols are useless. That's at least 2 turns of your opponent totally untouched, shooting with impunity.

8 5-man infantry squads (plus as many extra minis and/or rhinos as you want to add points) might be verging on MSU, but they're slow, pretty fragile, and while they're decent at clearing light and medium infantry... they have extremely limited range shooting to do anything else at all. I'd rather be spending that 900+ points elsewhere.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> I'd rather be spending that 900+ points elsewhere


like, if we still want close combat, 10 khorne bikers with powerfist, 2 meltaguns, combimelta, icon of wrath and 2 x 5 nurgle spawns. wich cost about 70% the Kharne CAD...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh hay, Eldar counter things. So do Tau. 

Next argument please. Noone is going to be buying Rhinos for the list. That isn't the point of it. The meltas aren't there to dedicate tank killing, they are there to help strip HP's and get the odd splode. Not everything can improve on next codex.

Khorne is weak asf. Weakest god maybe. But themes for armies are there. And need help.

After all, look at deathleaper brood. It has won a GT IIRC. Many said it was useless.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I know what's going to happen.

Someone'll paint up a themed force, real nice, or have an excuse to use their Berzerker army (let's say, for argument's sake, Wade Price, because his World Eaters look sweet). They bring it along to the FLGS. It's not a great list; it's got obvious weaknesses, but it looks great, and it has a strong theme. I go along. Fate splits into two strands. The first is that I bring my Blitz Brigade 'competitive' Orks, stomp his face in horribly; rolling dice to remove his models off the table for a couple of hours while awkwardly trying to make it seem like I'm not totally dominating him in the game. The second is that I bring my GK army - all Terminators, maybe a Dreadknight or two but certainly no vehicles. Perhaps a detachment of Steel Legion or Space Wolves. It's a good list, sure, because I've bought things that are strong, but the Grand Master's got a bunch of unnecessary toys and the weapons are a fairly even mix of Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators rather than the alternative list, which are all Psycannons. We recreate a small part of the First War for Armageddon, enjoying an afternoon and while I have the advantage, it's not a landslide victory or defeat for either of us.

Leave the competitive play in the competitions, guys, where it belongs.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Thinking about this more, three things about the formation really annoy me. 

1. Berzerkers as troops for a WE army is something that could really have used a boost, and this formation is a let down. 

2. Despite paying all of those points for themed troops you still need to take another HQ and two troop choices to make the overall list battleforged. Two more units of berzkers and a khorne lord? Probably not, so you'd most likely be forced into making an unbound list at that point.

3. Why berzekers _and_ khorne marked CSMs? I can't imagine taking both at the same time. I'd take berzerkers as my only troops if I was going to stick very strictly to a World Eaters army, and if I wanted to improve the list and be more points efficient I'd likely run all of my troops using the berzerker models as khorne chaos marines. With a mix of both units I'd feel like the berzerkers and chaos marines have to be different models to differentiate them- and then how would I model the chaos marines? 

The formation should have been Kharn and three of four units of eight berzerkers


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## DaisyDuke (Aug 18, 2011)

I think this is more a apoc formation as to make it any where near effective, you would have to be playing over 2000 points.
Khorne and 2+csm and 2+bezerkers would actually be playable.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

At the annoying risk (sorry, gents) of posting this list in 3 places, I thought it could be a decent enough way of utilizing the formation, though not competitive whatsoever.

With lucky rolls Huron can infiltrate or outflank the 3 footslogging units of Berzerkers, who will probably attack from the same flank to make use of the Fire Raptor's legacy. With 3 guns firing at separate targets, I can't think of a better way to pack that many S6/7 shots into the list. FNP for the zerkers at least gives them a slightly higher chance of surviving small arms fire.

Kharn and 5 buddies in the dreadclaw for a turn 2 assault. Cheaper than a Land Raider, but has its own problems. A bad scatter or Daemonic Possession roll could waste the unit entirely. But Kharn can take out whatever he needs to, if pulled off properly.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

@Squire it is battleforged wothout the need for a Combined Arms Detachment. As to why both, because Ranged Support is a thing perhaps? 
@MidnightSun - competitive orks? What?


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Vaz said:


> @Squire it is battleforged wothout the need for a Combined Arms Detachment. As to why both, because Ranged Support is a thing perhaps?
> @MidnightSun - competitive orks? What?


I was assuming the formation would be taken alongside another detachment to offset some of the formation's limitations. I suppose you could run it by itself but I can't see why anybody might want to. 

Ranged support from khorne marked chaos marines? You might as well stick destroyer blades on a vindicator and only use it for tank shocking. A more sensible formation would be Kharn and four units of berzerkers, then the player could decide what to take as ranged support themselves


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Vaz said:


> @MidnightSun - competitive orks? What?


Well, the nearest I could get with Orks.

*Combined Arms Detachment*
Warboss with Mega Armour and Lucky Stikk
Big Mek on Warbike with Kustom Force Field

20 Shoota Boyz
20 Shoota Boyz

4 Traktor Cannons
3 Kustom Mega-Kannons
3 Kustom Mega-Kannons

*Bully Boyz*
5 Meganobz
5 Meganobz
5 Meganobz

*Blitz Brigade*
Battlewagon with Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon with Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon with Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon with Reinforced Ram
Battlewagon with Reinforced Ram

Note: Well, that's what the army'd look like in an ideal world - at the moment it has Boyz in the Battlewagons instead of Bully Boyz, and has Lootas and Dakkajets instead of the Mek Gunz, but this is the dream if I had insane amounts of money and the list as it stands is still pretty hard (relative to my area/meta of course - it might just be that my local players are crap, which is certainly within the bounds of possibility, but I've been able to give Serpent Spam and Broadside/Riptide Tau a solid kicking a couple of times). Lootas can be a substitute for the Mega-Kannons if you face more light vehicles/flyers, I just like the 36" range hard counter to Broadsides/Crisis/Tyranid Warriors.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Need Stompa.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes indeed


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