# was Horus right? and is erebus actually a hero?!!!



## wingazzwarlord (Jun 11, 2011)

Iv currently just finished the 5th novel in the HH series "Fulgrim" and am currently getting really immersed in the pre heresy story, although i am now starting to wonder whether or not i am interpreting the story correctly as at times i find my self intensly disliking the imperial cause. Allow me to ellaborate why......

It seems to me that the imperium of man is an entirley tyrannical empire, With its staunch rules and brainwashed superhuman soldiers that truly believe that anything that is even remotely xeno's must die immediatley whether they are dangerous or not, basically if your not human or atleast humanoid your getting a kicking. This argument solidified itself when Fulgrim and his captains transitioned into the perdus system and discovered the paradise planets which the Eldar held dominion over. Fulgrim opted to spare these planets because of their beauty, and i thought finally a spacemarine with some sense of diplomacy(however Fulgrim is already infected by choas at this time without knowing it). On the flip side of the coin Solomen Demeter(The Honourable sevent of the emperor) is of the opinion that these worlds should be subject to the same fate as the rest of the alien worlds that the imperium has destroyed.

Finally i come to my point. I am now starting to believe that horus is infact the hero and the imperium must be stopped at all costs before it destroys the whole galaxy and makes everyone in it a compliant drone.

So i suppose my question is, does anyone agree and if in the postion of a space marine during the time of the heresy would u defect or be loyal ????????

I personally am unkowing pledging my soul to choas for the greater good of mankind :spiteful:


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

The thing is, just because the Emperor had an absolute morality policy as opposed to the relative morality of deciding whether xenos were harmful or not, this does not mean that Horus would have done it better. Horus and the Emperor were playing very different roles, the Emperor was the ruler, what he said goes. But Horus is percieved as being nicer because he was the politician, the Emperor did not feel he had to earn the respect of his sons, here as Horus had to fight for it, so who is to say that the moment Horus won the imperium he would have done it any differently?

Also, no matter how bad the imperium was in terms of human rights ... chaos .... seriously? instead of mindless drones the ordinary humans would be insane manifestations of the warp. they would spend their lives in eternal pain. I also fail to see how a chaos influenced imperium would spare the lives of xenos or for that matter any kind of free speech at all. 

The imperium still has some freedom, humans can still make something of themselves, Malcador for example, but in chaos, there are no malcador's or lords of terra equivalents, they are all astartes, ruling by an even more iron fist than the emperor did. 

So whilst I somewhat disagree with many of the Emperor's policies and did occasionally find him a bit of an ar*ehole, he knew how to rule the imperium, he knew how to conquor a galaxy, it might not have been the nicest way, but you need a bit of the Kurze factor to rule an entire galaxy without being constantly contested for your right to rule it. 

All the xenos that would be allowed to live would only serve to seperate the human race, and only cause friction between themselves and the rest of the imperium, it would cause a lot more conflict in the long run if only because many humans and astartes would be just as racist as the emperor, and many of these xenos would not want to live under the opressive rule of the imperium, so it is just leaving more of your enemies to unite against you. 

So my labourous point is, that was the only effective way to rule the imperium. So causing a civil war about it when realistically Horus was only going to do it exactly the same way seems kind of futile. 

But as for where I stand? Well here is where the lines get blurred, for I fall into what I like to call the Thousand Son category, being a victim of circumstances rather than having an actual choice, it all depends on the situation. Thousand Sons, every single one as loyal as the most devout Ultramarine, but all branded traitors. 

Would I personally want to turn against the imperium? No, not essentially. But if I was an astartes and my primarch turned from the light could i bring myself to trade my father for my grandfather? I dont know. I think in the end if my primarch said to me "join me and help me bring down the emperor" could I stare him in the eyes i had adored for so long and whisper "no"? I dont think i could do that, maybe those of you who are stronger men than me. 
Even if I was a primarch, could I look one of my Brothers, whom I had shed my blood with on countless battlefields and had fought alongside for centuries, who I had considered one of my only friends and equals. Could I look to him in his hour of need and strike him down for treachery? No im not sure i could either. 

So thats the problem with simple yes/no questions like this, there are no yes/no answers, for me it all depends on the situation. 
So I fall into the Magnus category, sit at home and cry untill some unknowing pawn of chaos comes to my house and kills all I have ever truly loved. So someone else can make the choice for me.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

To answer the question you had in the title: Erebus stole the Anatheme from the Interex, forcing a war against the Imperium. So I'd have to say no, he wasn't a hero.

And I would be a loyalist. And not just because I play Salamanders. In the 30K universe, the eldar are probably the only xenos (remember the Tau aren't all for the Greater Good yet) that a human could meet and be fairly certain that he or she would not be killed, tortured, eaten, or a combination of all three. The expeditions are a noble endeavor to reunite the lost colonies of humanity. And why shouldn't I want to be a citizen of the 30K Imperium under the Emperor with all those technological marvels? 

If I were a space marine, I'd probably still be a loyalist. If the orders my primarch gave me conflicted with those of the Emperor, I would like to think I would make the choice to stand again my primarch.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

To the OP,

I disagree with your premise. Also, given the phrasing of the title and the options in the poll, I suspect more people will click on "Heretic", assuming you're asking what Horus was.

Is the Imperium a tyrannical state? Yes. Does the Emperor seek more-or-less ultimate control over the entirety of Humanity? Yes. To achieve this, is he willing to wage more-or-less total war and see countless innocents dead? Yes.

Everything the Emperor does during the Great Crusade involves a macro-scale morality that is concerned with the survival of the species above all other considerations. That's it. Horus, by contrast, did not make informed decisions. He needed to be steered to a trap, wounded, poisoned, and then - in the middle of a trance that involved Chaotic rituals - manipulated into making his choice.

The Loyalist Astartes might seem like drones for marching lock-step to the "Imperial Truth", but are the Traitor Legionnaires any better? The Heresy required for Word Bearer Apostles to join the various other Legions and and get them to convert to a different ideology. Along with more-or-less religious indoctrination, the Traitors were also turned with allegations that were unfounded at best: the idea that the Emperor sought to become a god, for instance. Those that weren't willing to join were thrown down to Isstvan III and annihilated.

Did the Emperor make mistakes? Certainly. His entire Great Crusade - the means by which he would eventually achieve security for Humanity from Chaos - hinged on a lie. He kept the truth of Chaos hidden from everyone (except Magnus, who more-or-less knew already) and this eventually led him to lose control of the situation.

Ultimately, though, you have to remember this:
1. The violence the Imperium inflicted on Humanity was aimed at a noble goal. The tragedy of the 30k/40k universe is that there wasn't enough time to unite Humanity by other means.
2. By contrast, conflict *was and always will be* Chaos' goal.

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus. You seem to be giving off the vibe that you disagree with the Emperor's decision to keep humanity in the dark about the Chaos powers.

Do you think it would have been a wise choice for him to reveal their existence?

And also the bit about killing countless innocents. Do you think it was possible to unify mankind and to control a trillion + empire in a universe filled with aliens and supernatural entities in a more pacifist manner? I don't see how even if given time, the Emperor or any other ruler could have done so in any other manner.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Phoebus. You seem to be giving off the vibe that you disagree with the Emperor's decision to keep humanity in the dark about the Chaos powers.
> 
> Do you think it would have been a wise choice for him to reveal their existence?
> 
> And also the bit about killing countless innocents. Do you think it was possible to unify mankind and to control a trillion + empire in a universe filled with aliens and supernatural entities in a more pacifist manner? I don't see how even if given time, the Emperor or any other ruler could have done so in any other manner.


It would have certainly been a good idea to reveal the truth to the Primarchs, at least, to make sure that they couldn't be tricked into siding with, or using something that they didn't understand. As for the greater humanity, or even the astartes, I don't think so. With trillions of humans, it is inconceivable to think that some of them wouldn't try to experiment with Chaos and end up blowing up a city.

The killing innocents could have been almost completely avoided, but it has more to do with the Emperor's hands-off policy with the legions. The Space Wolves, Word Bearers, and World Eaters in particular could have used less freedom to wipe out the civilians of a planet that only needed a show of force. Guilliman showed that it was possible and the best solution to bring worlds into the Imperium through peaceful methods rather than wanton slaughter.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The traitor Primarchs didn't side with the Chaos powers out of spite because the Emperor lied about their existence.

The very reasons for them turning is why the Emperor did not tell them. He is the only being immune to their touch both psychically and morally and no amount of warning and advice would of helped the Primarchs ward off their corruption.

We don't know everything about the planets certain legions wiped out. Perhaps the Emperor sanctioned the execution of their populations because he knew they were Chaos tainted or that their deaths would lead to something beneficial (an example of the Emperor meddling with the future, etc. assuming he didn't lose his ability to see into the future during the Great Crusade).

And I am quite certain the Ultramarines stained their hands in the blood of innocents several times. It was unavoidable for the Emperor's legions given the circumstances of the universe they fought in.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus,

I think the Emperor should have told the Primarchs. Doing so, and showing them what the Ruinous Powers were about, would have altered the dynamic for at least some of the Primarchs who went traitor, I think. Indirectly, I think it might have also put more pressure on Magnus to stay clean.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You don't think there is a reason at all for the Emperor choosing not to?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Realistically? Plot device. You need the conflict. In story? Something amounting to the Emperor not wanting to expose his sons/greatest creations to the penultimate evil. He probably felt that only he could remain uncorrupted by such knowledge. I think that was his big error.

At the very least, I believe Lorgar would not have turned - given knowledge of what Chaos had done to Humanity during the Age of Strife. Remember, Lorgar didn't just turn to Chaos on account of not being allowed to worship the Emperor. He was hurt and felt betrayed, true, but in that state he also found out that things had been kept hidden from him. In that state, he was perhaps more susceptible to accept a "terrible truth", since it would have vindicated what he had stood for to begin with. HAD the Emperor informed him on the reasons behind his elimination of religion, I think Lorgar would have had a crisis of faith indeed, but would have made the right choice in regards to Mankind's destiny and shifted his energies elsewhere.

Similarly, I think Mortarion's upbringing (defined by inhuman, monstrous overlords toying with the lives of humans) combined with the revelation of what Chaos was would have kept him in line. This comes with a caveat, though. We don't know what led to Mortarion's fall. Typhon (like Erebus and Kor-Phaeron) had been inducted into Chaos worship long before the Heresy, but his tutelage alone would not have guaranteed conversion if stacked against the Emperor's influence.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Some people hate the Imperium for what it does to humans, but the fact is that in the 40k universe, freedom is lethal. Because the Warp feeds off desires and emotions, having an indulgent society would empower the Chaos Gods so much that they could rip the universe apart. At the same time, however, happiness - and the pursuit thereof - *can* be found in the Imperium. The only thing is, it is a very modest, humble happiness, not the overindulgence we're used to in the 21st Century (or that which the Eldar were used to before the Fall, though that's a bit different). Because life is so necessarily hard, people create their own happiness. Of course, I speak of the general population, not the nobility - they possess wealth, wealth equals power, and power equals (more) freedom, which is why Inquisitors associate with and like to keep a close eye on the patricians.

Others hate the Imperium for their lack of tolerance against xenos breeds, but again, this is justified. The Emperor's vision is that humans rule the galaxy - alone. There is no room for the alien, who has more often than not shown aggressive tendencies. There is very little chance of negotiation with xenos - the manipulative Eldar only cooperate when it meets their needs, and the Tau will talk, but they strive to serve the Greater Good - and so a "kill it with fire" is truly the best policy regarding the alien. This does create some conflict, such as the Paradise World example you provided, but nothing is ever truly black and white.

Now, as to whether or not the Emperor should have shared his knowledge of Chaos - at least with the Primarchs - I can see both sides of the argument. While most of the Primarchs showed unswerving loyalty to the Emperor at first, we know that each one was willful, arrogant, and divisive in his own way. The Emperor gave the Primarchs a lot of leeway, and that's what I think caused more problems than anything. He saw them as His sons, of course, and trusted them enough to give them command over a legion of superhuman warriors. The Emperor was busy trying to carve out a human section of the Webway, and so he couldn't keep a leash on his boys. Had the Emperor been more open - not necessarily telling the Primarchs about Chaos, but also not hanging out in his underground lab all day - I think many of the issues could have been mitigated, if not avoided altogether.

The Heresy wouldn't have been prevented completely, though. It was inevitable that such strong, willful beings eventually find out about Chaos and fight in its name. While the Ruinous Powers tried to prevent the Age of the Imperium by scattering the Primarchs after their "births", I think they also kept an eye on the Primarchs and guided the future traitors to their goals.


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## wingazzwarlord (Jun 11, 2011)

the decision for the emperor to tell or not tell the primarchs about the influence of chaos was clearly a mistake, however the bigger mistake came by trying to hide its existence by harvesting psykers and denying the existence of gods. This is particularly relevant in the first book in the HH series. This is Relevant because now millions of superhuman warriors in all the legions believe in only the imperial truth and have no grasp of any of the cultural differences of any race other than humanity, which leaves only the primarchs and there captains who are the most free thinking astartes open to curruption. So as the old saying goes"shit rolls down hill" and in my humble opinion the emperor brought about the heresy by his own hand by 
1) ruling as a dictator
2) intentionally or none intentionally giving his followers the impression of him being an omnipotent god.
3) trying to control the powers of the either alone.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Some people hate the Imperium for what it does to humans, but the fact is that in the 40k universe, freedom is lethal. Because the Warp feeds off desires and emotions, having an indulgent society would empower the Chaos Gods so much that they could rip the universe apart. At the same time, however, happiness - and the pursuit thereof - *can* be found in the Imperium. The only thing is, it is a very modest, humble happiness, not the overindulgence we're used to in the 21st Century (or that which the Eldar were used to before the Fall, though that's a bit different). Because life is so necessarily hard, people create their own happiness. Of course, I speak of the general population, not the nobility - they possess wealth, wealth equals power, and power equals (more) freedom, which is why Inquisitors associate with and like to keep a close eye on the patricians.
> 
> Others hate the Imperium for their lack of tolerance against xenos breeds, but again, this is justified. The Emperor's vision is that humans rule the galaxy - alone. There is no room for the alien, who has more often than not shown aggressive tendencies. There is very little chance of negotiation with xenos - the manipulative Eldar only cooperate when it meets their needs, and the Tau will talk, but they strive to serve the Greater Good - and so a "kill it with fire" is truly the best policy regarding the alien. This does create some conflict, such as the Paradise World example you provided, but nothing is ever truly black and white.
> 
> ...


Some really nice points. :goodpost:


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

I don't think its fair to say that the Imperium dealt with aliens correctly. Despite, numerous occasions were aliens prayed upon humanity during the Crusading times and before, the Emperor made the mistake of generalizing them all into a singular category, of being 'inferior'. That in itself is barbaric and if the Emperor was truly trying to enlighten humanity and elevate them, would he not have seen the qualities within alien cultures that were, like the kinebrach of the interex, at least humanoid and knowledgeable about the nature of the universe. That in itself is a mistake is it not? How much could the Imperium have learned from alien races if treating them in a civilized manner, befitting of a race that that wanted to become dominant in the galaxy? I think the Emperor would have recognized the qualities of these cultures. Tolerance would have taken the Imperium further I think.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> I don't think its fair to say that the Imperium dealt with aliens correctly. Despite, numerous occasions were aliens prayed upon humanity during the Crusading times and before, the Emperor made the mistake of generalizing them all into a singular category, of being 'inferior'. That in itself is barbaric and if the Emperor was truly trying to enlighten humanity and elevate them, would he not have seen the qualities within alien cultures that were, like the kinebrach of the interex, at least humanoid and knowledgeable about the nature of the universe. That in itself is a mistake is it not? How much could the Imperium have learned from alien races if treating them in a civilized manner, befitting of a race that that wanted to become dominant in the galaxy? I think the Emperor would have recognized the qualities of these cultures. Tolerance would have taken the Imperium further I think.


I think it would have spread discord, sure some humans would have been ok with it but there were primarchs that were racist. I fail to see Angron or Russ having a nice cup of tea (yeah im english) with some alien. Also they would not want to be under the opressive heel of the big E, so conflict could only have come out of it. However I do agree that alot could have been learned from them, so yet again I am calling myself a thousand son when i say "yeah we should kill them, but we can still look at what they learned first"


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Longfang1234 said:


> I don't think its fair to say that the Imperium dealt with aliens correctly. Despite, numerous occasions were aliens prayed upon humanity during the Crusading times and before, the Emperor made the mistake of generalizing them all into a singular category, of being 'inferior'. That in itself is barbaric and if the Emperor was truly trying to enlighten humanity and elevate them, would he not have seen the qualities within alien cultures that were, like the kinebrach of the interex, at least humanoid and knowledgeable about the nature of the universe. That in itself is a mistake is it not? How much could the Imperium have learned from alien races if treating them in a civilized manner, befitting of a race that that wanted to become dominant in the galaxy? I think the Emperor would have recognized the qualities of these cultures. Tolerance would have taken the Imperium further I think.


The Emperor was trying to keep humanity alive. The best way to ensure that was to eliminate all potential threats. Taking chances on the basis that the little green men might just want a cup of sugar may not be the most judicious decision considering humanities track record with alien cultures. Humanity showed tolerance once, and it was repaid by mass murder and enslavement during Old Night. The Emperor's foreign policy choices may be considered, at the very least, unsavory by our delicate standards, but they would more than likely keep humanity alive and strong. You don't become the supreme rulers of a galaxy by being nice. I really doubt "enlightenment" was very high on the priority list. Probably ranked somewhere around the same level as that cup of sugar.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First and foremost the Ruinous powers are not gods. They are sentient beings of energy created wholly by their followers and other warp sentient creatures. A god is a transcendant being that doesn't need to be created because it always was. A god a being who is not insane and a single minded creatures as it is ominiscient and omnipresent. The Chaos Gods are that in name only. So he was right to say they weren't Gods as he understood what they actually were. His real mistake is not taking the time to explain what these things really were as it would have taken away there mystique and allure a bit. Keeping humanity in the dark is always a dumb idea and for someone so smart the Emperor should have known better. Ask the Lion and Curze. In darkness lies danger,deceit,paranoia,evil,and ignorance. For someone claiming to want to bring illumination to everyone all the Emperor really offered was darkness.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Not entirely sure where you're basing your definition of "god" from, Deadeye.

"one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs"

By the definition, that's precisely what they are. (Deity; a. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.).

You also have their formation down wrong. The Eldar didn't worship or Follow Slaanesh, yet he/she/it was born upon the orgasm of a lifetime. Any fear would promote Nurgle, Any anger would promote Khorne, any desire (not just for sexy time either) would promote Slaanesh, and because change is engendered within all of those deires, that promotes Tzeentch.

The idea that "Gods were False" was a simplistic mechanism that removed the strength of gods (ironically due to their belief occurcing from dogmatic unquestioning ritual). Yes, they would sustain the gods without their worship, but they wouldn't actively turn to it's worship. Simply denying it's existence,and true belief in the denial is a more efficient block than hoping people don't worship it.

After all, you get the whole "goths" these days who glamorise satan and the devil, and all, because they know about it. If the Bible (brilliant story book, should read it sometime) was censored to not include the devil, along with all references, and people who knew of the devil, there would be no knowledge of the devil to worship.

I can't remember exactly how Erebus became tainted, but it's most likely through connection with a "xenos creature from the warp", if not, be happy to be proved wrong. But anyway, if Erebus hadn't become Tainted, he wouldn't have been able to taint Horus. If the Davinite Lodges had been purged, there would have been no ritual which turned Horus.

Admittedly, the future shown to John Grammaticus, and thence to what might have been Alpharius showed the Imperium being destroyed, whether quickly at the hands of Horus, or over a long period at the hand of decaying Emperor. Whether that vision would have still come to pass had the Chaos Gods not managed to taint anybody, least of all Erebus, or someone in position to influence Horus is highly in doubt - and I believe (purely my belief) that the Chaos Gods were only going to show their hand once they were certain of having the winning card - aka, Erebus in their pocket was their joker which could nullify the opposing King, Horus, who was in turn capable of halting the Ace of Spades, the Big E - in short, if Horus had no knowledge of Chaos, he wouldn't have turned.

Xenophobia with extreme prejudice against all could be what saved the Imperium. With no access to the Chaos Gods, or having means to influence the populace of the Imperium, as if it were a Carte Blanche with no Chaotic influence initially, there could be no eventual corruption.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> First and foremost the Ruinous powers are not gods.


They can quite readily be described as gods, not Gods (in the Abrahamic sense) but gods certainly. Throughout human history we have worshipped pantheons of gods with drastically less power and influence than the Chaos Gods. 



Vaz said:


> I can't remember exactly how Erebus became tainted, but it's most likely through connection with a "xenos creature from the warp", if not, be happy to be proved wrong.


Erebus was 'tainted' by exposure to some of the old religions of Colchis. Ones that existed before Lorgar's crusade and the coming of the Emperor.



> in short, if Horus had no knowledge of Chaos, he wouldn't have turned.


Which is odd because Horus did have no knowledge of Chaos. Right up until they revealed themselves and turned him. Indeed his lack of knowledge was likely a strongly contributing factor to his acceptance of their power and agenda.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Is it stated anywhere that Erebus was in fact tainted? I was always under the impression that he was naturally more inclined to follow the Chaos powers from the beginning.


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## wingazzwarlord (Jun 11, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> First and foremost the Ruinous powers are not gods. They are sentient beings of energy created wholly by their followers and other warp sentient creatures. A god is a transcendant being that doesn't need to be created because it always was. A god a being who is not insane and a single minded creatures as it is ominiscient and omnipresent. The Chaos Gods are that in name only. So he was right to say they weren't Gods as he understood what they actually were. His real mistake is not taking the time to explain what these things really were as it would have taken away there mystique and allure a bit. Keeping humanity in the dark is always a dumb idea and for someone so smart the Emperor should have known better. Ask the Lion and Curze. In darkness lies danger,deceit,paranoia,evil,and ignorance. For someone claiming to want to bring illumination to everyone all the Emperor really offered was darkness.





cegorach said:


> I think it would have spread discord, sure some humans would have been ok with it but there were primarchs that were racist. I fail to see Angron or Russ having a nice cup of tea (yeah im english) with some alien. Also they would not want to be under the opressive heel of the big E, so conflict could only have come out of it. However I do agree that alot could have been learned from them, so yet again I am calling myself a thousand son when i say "yeah we should kill them, but we can still look at what they learned first"


 
Its not inaccurate but im not sure i would agree with that. If you look at ancient greek mythology it was clear that the greek gods were ruled over by titans and zues himself was not infact himself a god until the titans were defeated and he created man with the intention of feeding his own power with mans prayers. so you could probably say that man creates gods in all cicumstances and not the other way around.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Is it stated anywhere that Erebus was in fact tainted? I was always under the impression that he was naturally more inclined to follow the Chaos powers from the beginning.


Chaos influence is generally called a taint, but to my knowledge Erebus was not physically corrupted in any way before the Heresy. He was clearly influenced by Chaotic dogma, which could be considered more of a spiritual taint, assuming you think Chaos is bad.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Interesting Vaz. I didn't mean that the Eldar worshipped Slaanesh but were among the sentient creatures that contribute to the Ruinous powers. An accurate less religious term for them would be a parasite. I guess this term could be applied to any entity that is dependant on another creature for its sustenance and power. However I see the Old Ones as a truer sense of the word God as the story opens up with them just "existing." They never explained how they got to be so powerful or warp sensitive they always were. If you look up the definition of Allah,God,Jehova or whatever you want to call him/she/it he has the same origin. He just was and always had been. No origin birth or creation story. 

The heresy was correct. Horus should have done it with his brothers and shown them the truth of their fathers lies. I would have loved that story. However the touch or taint of Chaos is where in my opinion everything went wrong. The Emperor was ultra powerful but definitely killable without the Chaos powers. That ork at Ullanor almost had his number and according to the early HH books that wasn't the first time he came close to be donesky. I believe if Dorn,Gulliman,Russ,Johnson,Khan,and Sanguinius knew completely of all the Emperor had done their loyalties while maybe not all some would have turned. The deal with the Thunder Warriors and the Mechanicus. Especially the the Thunder warrior deal. How could they learn that and not think somewhere that if he didn't want to share the praise for earth which is one planet, then the Great Crusade with it's much grander scale could mean they were next. Food for thought.


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