# The Alpha Legion: Extermination



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Holy shit. If anyone doubted the ability of the Alpha Legion to brainwash and wipe out the Crimson Consuls, then Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination should without a doubt reassure you that it was well within their ability and perfectly acceptable for such a versatile force.

Not even Alpharius knows the full extent of his legion's activities. Their shadow cells have shadow cells completely oblivious to one another's existence. 

Horus could not control them. The Emperor certainly couldn't. Mentioned within the text are several accounts of Alpharius's upbringing only to then be dismissed as never having occurred. One of these accounts came straight from the mind of an Alpha Legionaire captured by the Custodes to have his mind read by a psyker.

If I recall, ADB mentioned not wanting to write about the Alpha Legion in their current incarnation because they seem to have no flaws and no weaknesses. 

Prior to reading the book, I was assuming it would lessen the notion that they can outplan and outwit any foe from Primarchs to aliens but it only reinforced this notion.

They are estimated to have had around 180,000 legionaries, putting them amongst the biggest of legions. 

They can recoup their losses at an alarming rate apparently much to the envy of their brother legions.

They are stated as having a matchless level of coordination legion-wide and being able to read the ebb and flow of battle on an individual level and adapting, should there be unexpected changes, at a pace and efficiency that no other legion can compare to.

They've stolen designs and schematics from their brother legions (Corvus armor for example from the Raven Guard) and upgraded it to suit their needs.

They use xenos technology.

Based on all this, I cannot see how they are not *the most* deadly legion hands-down.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

You are certainly fast to take it for gospel and absolute truth what is presented about the alpha legion, a legion known for half truths, lies and misdirection. I see it as a clear case of propanganda to make them appear like the invincible hydra they aspire to be, that never can be defeated.

The alpha legion certainly lives for the sake of their labyrinthine plots. Intentionally making it convoluted because they can, if not outright addicted to it. Like the story of alpharius and his legion attacking a world, not in the standard manner of astartes, but using every sneaky trick in the book because they could. Even if it took longer time and far less efficient. That is what I see as their weakness, they simply cant stop from scheming and turning everything into a plot or conspiracy where clean and consise communication could have finished it in half the time, maybe even less.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Not everything pumped out by BL/GW/FW about the AL is meant to be viewed with the 'they're all lies. inquisitor kravin, edward snowden, did 9/11 happen??? etc.' bit.

The purpose of these books is to reveal each of the legions in depth. Everything listed in my previous post was written by an outside source and based on facts, and theories. The same with the descriptions of the other legions albeit with less information and a lot more theories.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> You are certainly fast to take it for gospel and absolute truth what is presented about the alpha legion, a legion known for half truths, lies and misdirection. I see it as a clear case of propanganda to make them appear like the invincible hydra they aspire to be, that never can be defeated


I agree the Alpha Legion probably brain washed a few people and used them in a ingenius Propoganda campaign against the Imperium. I also agree they have technology they stole from their fellow Legions; how else can you explain some of the advanced weapons the forces of Choas possess in the current Millenia of the Imperium.

However I tink their numbers, and their strength, are a miscalculated, or intentionally flawed, misinformation. With it's History, and practices, I doubt the Alpha Legion could do all that they are proported to be capable of.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Not everything pumped out by BL/GW/FW about the AL is meant to be viewed with the 'they're all lies. inquisitor kravin, edward snowden, did 9/11 happen??? etc.' bit.
> 
> The purpose of these books is to reveal each of the legions in depth. Everything listed in my previous post was written by an outside source and based on facts, and theories. The same with the descriptions of the other legions albeit with less information and a lot more theories.



No, but taking the Isstvan trilogy in context, it is written as an Imperial document which is written after the Horus Heresy. Throughout all of the book, the language suggests this. So there is a lot of merit to the claim that "You can't believe everything you read" about the Alpha Legion. Given that the fluff bit is written as an imperial historical document, it is entirely believable that some of it is lies put these with the purpose of inflating the image of the Alpha Legion and what it is capable if to scare the Imperials.

All that being said, if we believe most of what is in Extermination, the Alpha Legion do come across as one of, if not the most, powerful legion. 

Then again, if we knew everything about the Alpha Legion, then perhaps they would lose their mystique and become another bland Legion who were a little bit sneaky. Perhaps we need to be kept guessing about the power and scope of the Alpha Legion to sustain the mystery that surrounds them?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> No, but taking the Isstvan trilogy in context, it is written as an Imperial document which is written after the Horus Heresy. Throughout all of the book, the language suggests this. So there is a lot of merit to the claim that "You can't believe everything you read" about the Alpha Legion. Given that the fluff bit is written as an imperial historical document, it is entirely believable that some of it is lies put these with the purpose of inflating the image of the Alpha Legion and what it is capable if to scare the Imperials.
> 
> All that being said, if we believe most of what is in Extermination, the Alpha Legion do come across as one of, if not the most, powerful legion.
> 
> Then again, if we knew everything about the Alpha Legion, then perhaps they would lose their mystique and become another bland Legion who were a little bit sneaky. Perhaps we need to be kept guessing about the power and scope of the Alpha Legion to sustain the mystery that surrounds them?


It's written as a journal/eye-witness account. It probably hasn't been seen by more than a handful of people. 

It is not a document the AL would have had access to or even known about. Again, it's simply giving the readers sorely needed pre-GW information about each of the legions.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I, for once, agree with Malus. The books are slightly doctored, but these are not propaganda pieces. These are observational reports, or BDA's for want of another term. These are assessments and insights into what the Alpha Legion are portrayed as, with recurse to their flaws (such as near inability to work with). The wording comes across as honest - and to change all that to simply make it be another AL propaganda piece when no other article on a legion does so would be doing an immense disservice to making the AL one of the most interesting legions to read about - for example, there's no mention of Omegon expressly that I can remember. Omegon is a complete secret if you've not read the novels, I think.

Seriously - even with "Legion" regularly cited as being one of the best books in the HH series, the AL still didn't striike a chord with me until now.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I loved the Alpha Legion's portrayal in Extermination, but I don't think it made them out to be invincible or unbeatable. Personally, I see that perception coming from some poor portrayals in the Heresy series (eg. _Deliverance Lost_). Perhaps there has been too much of an exaggeration of their infiltration abilities (seemingly appearing anywhere and everywhere) and too little focus on their flaws (or at least other traits) - such as their zealousness to emulate the glory of the older Legions by any means possible and the resulting souring of relationships between Alpharius and many of his brothers. But also, too little focus on their actual abilities as a front-line fighting force - most of their wars were still fought by significant Legion forces on the ground, not just by infiltration. 

In retrospect, I would have liked the Alpha Legion to not have been involved in _Deliverance Lost_ at all. Instead, a post-_Legion_ novel where the scale of the Alpha Legion's preparations in those years after the murder of Namatjira and before the Drop Site Massacre were touched upon and just how valuable the Alpha Legion were to Horus's rebellion in the opening phases - expanding on the short story _Liar's Due_. Leading up to Alpharius moving against Jaghatai Khan. That would have been my choice of novel which could have followed up _Legion_ sufficiently, and directly linked into _Scars_. Oh well.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I couldn't finish DL. Was that where Alpharius pissed his pants after talking to Horus?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't care if the Alpha Legion is portrayed as being superior. Whether we like it or not, the Legiones Astartes are not all equal. That has become more and more obvious with the release of the Horus Heresy novels and the Forge World books. Think about it objectively:

1. The Iron Warriors are portrayed as specialists whose relationship with their increasingly volatile primarch is complicated at best.
2. Once reunited with the Night Haunter, the Night Lords swiftly became a legion of murderers and rapists who generally didn't trust one another.
3. The Flaw forced the Blood Angels to become specialists as well. It also ensured that their tactics and strategies could never be flawless: a certain percentage of their force was increasingly susceptible to losing control.
4. The Iron Hands were a very capable legion, but they were ultimately an overt and blunt instrument geared toward overt and blunt modes of war.
5. The World Eaters were lobotomized berserkers.
6. The Death Guard were specialists in perhaps the most counter-productive mode of war in the 31st millennium.
7. The Word Bearers were numerous, well-equipped, and extremely motivated, and nothing indicates that they were sub-standard in any mode of war. Ultimately, though, they don't strive for the same level of synergy and cohesion that has become the hallmark of the Alpha Legion.

So, right off the bat, that's seven legions that possess flaws that put them a peg below the Alpha Legion, or lack the merits of the XX, or simply pursue a mode of war that ensures they'll take more losses than they'll dish out. The serious debate, in my humble opinion, only starts when we start comparing the Alpha Legion to the other remaining ten legions. Even then, though, I think we can objectively see how even some of the great legions with great primarchs simply don't strive for the synergy that is the Alpha Legion's hallmark, and all but one approach covert warfare as an afterthought - if at all!

My short list for legions that could go toe-to-toe with the Alpha Legion are the Dark Angels (because it's implied that they are one of the few legions that doesn't specialize, and are capable of performing any mission set), the Thousand Sons (because they are game-changers in their own way), and the Ultramarines (maybe; because they, too, have excellent synergy and cooperation). I would add the Sons of Horus to that list, but I honestly think they would only best or match the XX where Horus was. I don't think the average company of the XVI would be prepared to deal with the twists within twists within twists that the Alpha Legion do so well.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> Perhaps we need to be kept guessing about the power and scope of the Alpha Legion to sustain the mystery that surrounds them?





Phoebus said:


> My short list for legions


With all due respect Phoebus your list is compelled of mostly Traitor Legions that would eventually go turncoat. We could easily saw that the Alpha Legion may have been the best of the best but it really comes down to a matter of perspective. If I said the Dark Angels have a inflated reputation based on the fact of their Fraternity/Discretion then we could probably make the conclusion that historical facts about them are just as corrupted and flawed as the Alpha Legion. 

It really comes down to the "point-of-view of the writer." If the writers wrote the document from a perspective of awe and reverence then naturally he will inflate the documents of history to spell out a Legion that was neigh untouchable. However if he was a realist, a fact seeker, he may have written the document from the perspective of someone simply recording history; and may have taken a more cynic's approach.

Therefore while I agree with both you and Darkblade, I cannot help but think this is simply just coming down to who wrote history.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Uhm, my short list is two loyalists and one traitor that wouldn't have rebelled if not for the machinations of others... :wink:

Beyond that, the point of view is of a writer from _the Imperial perspective,_ following the events being described. Your points would thus be apropos if the writer said that the Alpha Legion sucks and the Imperial Fists are way better than them (or whatever)... but that's not what is being proposed. The Imperial perspective is basically being very humble, however, and acknowledging that Alpharius was very clever, calculating, and forward-thinking in coming up with a scheme for his legion that went beyond the standard "Legiones Astartes" model.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

It would also seem that the Alpha Legion had two distinct advantages over the rest of the legions in defining themselves as an organization. First, Alpharius/Omegon were the last two Primarchs discovered and even then had little mentoring/contact with the Emperor... they had more time to develop on their own without being pounded into the Imperialist mold of empire-building as the highest achievement for the Astartes. Second is they're the only Legion who's Primarch(s) wasn't tied naturally to a home base/planet reference, except perhaps Angron, that required them to naturally follow an empire-building developmental path.

Guilliman exhorts his Astartes to reach beyond their warrior roles in recognition that one day they're going to move beyond into something more. Well, the Alpha Legion seems to take that from the other end, saying they're more than warriors, but can perform in that manner to compliment/enhance their enhanced intelligence.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I would be interested in what people think the Alpha Legion's flaws and weaknesses were/are?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

No chain of command, everyone does their own thing, their own schemes. The alpha legion is just a legion in the barest sense of the word, a loose collected grouping of warbands with their own agenda.

They turn everything into an elaborate scheme, where a direct approach might have been better and getting it done faster. They are litteraly addicted to the spy business. Just like the nightlords and their fearmongering, the nighties only shows themselves to give the death blow to a world quavering in the throes of fear. Same for the alpha legion after theyve run their elaborate schemes to destabilize a world.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What I would be interested in is what people think the Alpha Legion's flaws and weaknesses were/are?


I think they wold only be obvious when dealing with a legion similar to them. IE the Dark Angels/Raven Guard.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

In some ways, their strengths are their weakness. What made them so effective as a legion - their insular nature, their covert tactics, etc. - has also led to them not being trusted by many of their brothers, no?

Also, to play Devi's Advocate against my earlier points, take some of the Alpha Legion's strengths with a grain of salt. Much like the Night Lords' terror tactics don't really have an effect against the Legiones Astartes, it's safe to assume that some of the covert stuff Alpharius' sons will try won't have an effect against beings with eidetic memories and highly enhanced minds. Furthermore, no amount of built-in redundancy will help you if you're getting squashed on the battlefield. That is, I don't care if Cell Gamma is ready to step in for every other Cell on Planet X in the event of their destruction when the (e.g.) Dark Angels have control of the orbit and are bombarding everything to oblivion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> No chain of command, everyone does their own thing, their own schemes. The alpha legion is just a legion in the barest sense of the word, a loose collected grouping of warbands with their own agenda.


That may be more specifically the case post-Heresy. After all, _Extermination_ notes that one of the contradictions of the Alpha Legion is their simultaneous ability to completely devolve authority and decentralise command whilst also all working in absolute unity (hence them being referred to as _The Unbroken Chain_).



Phoebus said:


> In some ways, their strengths are their weakness. What made them so effective as a legion - their insular nature, their covert tactics, etc. - has also led to them not being trusted by many of their brothers, no?
> 
> Also, to play Devi's Advocate against my earlier points, take some of the Alpha Legion's strengths with a grain of salt. Much like the Night Lords' terror tactics don't really have an effect against the Legiones Astartes, it's safe to assume that some of the covert stuff Alpharius' sons will try won't have an effect against beings with eidetic memories and highly enhanced minds. Furthermore, no amount of built-in redundancy will help you if you're getting squashed on the battlefield. That is, I don't care if Cell Gamma is ready to step in for every other Cell on Planet X in the event of their destruction when the (e.g.) Dark Angels have control of the orbit and are bombarding everything to oblivion.


Yep, I would agree with you there P.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

well as deliverance lost has any "significance" whatsoever, there seems to be no issue infiltrating the RG even not when considering cc styles there did not seem to be an issue.
I feel it a bit strange that they are good at everything, close combat (DL), infiltration (DL), void war (scars), I do not see how one can combine this bandwith with that level of speciality, in principle the product of both is somewhat constant


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What is the name of this book, and what series is it from? I have been wanting to read any and all books that detail specific legions in particular.

Could anyone recommend a few books that match what I am looking for? The forgeworld books match this?


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

piemelke said:


> I feel it a bit strange that they are good at everything, close combat (DL), infiltration (DL), void war (scars), I do not see how one can combine this bandwith with that level of speciality, in principle the product of both is somewhat constant


I'm sorry.. What? I didn't understand anything


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> No chain of command, everyone does their own thing, their own schemes. The alpha legion is just a legion in the barest sense of the word, a loose collected grouping of warbands with their own agenda.
> 
> They turn everything into an elaborate scheme, where a direct approach might have been better and getting it done faster. They are litteraly addicted to the spy business. Just like the nightlords and their fearmongering, the nighties only shows themselves to give the death blow to a world quavering in the throes of fear. Same for the alpha legion after theyve run their elaborate schemes to destabilize a world.


They do have a chain of command however it's more of a river than a metal chain.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think you guys are focused a bit too much on the strengths of the Alpha Legion and not enough on their...I hesitate to say weakness, but let's settle on limitations, all right?

First, it's time. They need time. Months at the least. Years...maybe decades or centuries to pull off their really big jobs. (Like the Swords of the Emperor).

If you need something taken out in a day, the Alpha Legion aren't your go to guys. Not saying they couldn't...but they definitely would not be as successful as say the Luna Wolves or World Eaters.

Now here's my conjecture, but I feel that the Alpha Legion's covert operations are more about being unseen as to the Raven Guard's invisible. If you can catch the nuance difference.

Now with a human or near-human civilization, that's very much possible. Even easy.

Something closer to the pre-fifth edition Necrons or the Tyranids, and I don't think you'll find them nearly as powerful. There's a lack of supply lines to take out and leadership is very decentralized. I'm not saying they wouldn't be able to target the Hive Tyrants or something, but not to any significant degree more than their brother Legions.

Also, lastly, and perhaps most importantly, is their ability to work with their brother Legions. It seems they were disliked by the great majority of their fellow Astartes. This limits their own ability to wage war to what resources they can call upon. A major limitation.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

piemelke said:


> well as deliverance lost has any "significance" whatsoever, there seems to be no issue infiltrating the RG even not when considering cc styles there did not seem to be an issue.
> I feel it a bit strange that they are good at everything, close combat (DL), infiltration (DL), void war (scars), I do not see how one can combine this bandwith with that level of speciality, in principle the product of both is somewhat constant


Let's not get ahead of ourselves. :wink:

The Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard at their most vulnerable point. Also where that story is concerned, I don't remember _Deliverance Lost_ painting the Alpha Legionnaires as somehow exceptional where close combat is concerned.

Where void war is concerned, _Scars_ shows them employ trickery to stall the White Scars. They do a number on the Space Wolves, but they we can assume they outnumbered the VI Legion and had the advantage of their opponent coming off of a mauling at Prospero.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

*To Phoebus*


> They do a number on the Space Wolves, but they we can assume they outnumbered the VI Legion and had the advantage of their opponent coming off of a mauling at Prospero.


 A little flawed logic - because SW haven't lost a ship at Prospero as mentioned in TS


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

As regards hard numbers and the like for the Alpha Legion I would hesitate to take them at face value, the in universe author of Extermination himself notes that hard facts on the Alpha legion are almost impossible to obtain or verify. 

I would put forward that one of their weaknesses/limitation was their desire to be the best and a confidence which became a hubris. As others in the thread have noted the Alpha Legion were driven to be the best, to eclipse their older kin. This was done at the expense of forging any comradiere with thsoe legions or the Imperium as a whole. They isolated themselves. 

Matched with that drive to win, to be the best, is the need to demonstrate they're the best, demonstrate it to the extreme. Not enough is it for the Alpha Legion to achieve victory, rather it must be an overwhelming victory, a victory at every stage and level. As the author notes, the Alpha Legion purposely executed over elaborate campaigns and strategies just to show that they could. They need time to plan and execute these overelaborate plans, and being so intricate, so elaborate, they can be undone. So if they make a miscalculation, if some phase of the plan doesn't go perfectly, then they pay a heavy price. 

I do think though that Extermination has portrayed them in a excellent way, really putting the 'legion' aspect back into the fore. too often are portrayals of the Alpha Legion focused on infiltration and the like when that's merely one of many tools and means to their overall end. I liked seeing that the Alpha Legion was capable in armoured assaults, in the more blunt aspects of war. 

One thing the Forgeworld books have done is bring a fantastic degree of depth to the legions, and really brought them to life. You can see the character and feel of a legion, not just in the text but in the symbols they use and their panoply of war. Kudos to the whole team.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> I think you guys are focused a bit too much on the strengths of the Alpha Legion and not enough on their...I hesitate to say weakness, but let's settle on limitations, all right?
> 
> First, it's time. They need time. Months at the least. Years...maybe decades or centuries to pull off their really big jobs. (Like the Swords of the Emperor).
> 
> If you need something taken out in a day, the Alpha Legion aren't your go to guys. Not saying they couldn't...but they definitely would not be as successful as say the Luna Wolves or World Eaters.


Define successful. If you need to minimize collateral/infrastructure damage, I'd posit that even the Luna Wolves would be among the least capable force at it, alongside the World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels. Compared to say Salamanders (if dealing with a seccessionist force they were trying to bring into line, like the DA did in, I want to say, Unremembered Empire), Ultramarines, hell even Night Lord, if there was no cause for the terror tactics.



> Now here's my conjecture, but I feel that the Alpha Legion's covert operations are more about being unseen as to the Raven Guard's invisible. If you can catch the nuance difference.
> 
> Now with a human or near-human civilization, that's very much possible. Even easy.
> 
> Something closer to the pre-fifth edition Necrons or the Tyranids, and I don't think you'll find them nearly as powerful. There's a lack of supply lines to take out and leadership is very decentralized. I'm not saying they wouldn't be able to target the Hive Tyrants or something, but not to any significant degree more than their brother Legions.


At the time of the design of the AL, or Alpharius himself, there was no such thing as the Tyranids or the Necrons to contend with, not to mention 17-19 other Primarchs and Legions - taking a nominal figure of 120K Legionaries in a Legion, that's roughly 2-2.25 million Astartes. In the vast scheme of things, on a galactic scale, it's not all that much, but in the scales we already have (where in 40K, there's arguably less than a million), not to mention the guidance of the Emperor, the Primarchs, and 10,000 years of enlightened advancement in a technological fashion, as well as fully operating forge worlds all designating one goal, the call of the AL to be james bond deep cover agents against the Nids and Necrons is questionable.

However, Extermination shows one thing - their pragmatic nature - they gave entire sectors cancer just to prevent one near exterminated alien life form coming back. If the Kryptman solution was on the table, then the Alpha Legion would be wholly for it - doubly so if it meant they could get some of the 500 Worlds of Rowboat with it.



> Also, lastly, and perhaps most importantly, is their ability to work with their brother Legions. It seems they were disliked by the great majority of their fellow Astartes. This limits their own ability to wage war to what resources they can call upon. A major limitation.


This doesn't stop the Minotaurs in 40K. The AL have access to "better" or newer equipment - particular attention is paid to the Sicarans and the Mk6 Power Armour (the RG being the only other force with notable stocks of it), as well as possible insider information, and higher level clearances as shown by when they were the Ghost Legion (because lets face it, it's not going to be any other legion). More than even the TS, they believe in information is power. Despite the clunkiness of the writing and overall execution, the concept behind Deliverance Lost's AL sneaking aboard the RG shows how adept they are.

One of their biggest weaknesses is their hubris that comes from being the best. One of the old adages of Sun Tzu was never fight a battle you haven't already won. When fighting alongside the UM, they hindered the progression of a campaign to showcase how effectively they could win, just because they could. Their tendency to get caught in their own plots within plots could cause them to lose the focus necessary to push through and take that risk. Likewise, when their contingencies and plan b's all run out, they'll not have that safety net they're used to, leading to an early "bug out".

The comments regarding the speciality making them a big weak against non humanoids is also a bit of a null point. Yes, the Night Lords "Terror tactics" are all about spreading fear - but it's more than that, reading between the lines. It's about demolition of the psyche. Whereas the Alpha Legion will already have every battle tactic the enemy is going to make to hand, so they know where to avoid and where to strike, the Night Lords can force the enemy to attack to how they wish.

Think of it being the difference between having the blueprints to an enemy base, and being some kind of puppetmaster (AFB, but isn't that the title of Llansahai, the NL Apothecary?) directing the enemy. Whereas the RG are able to pick and pull and at a defence, forcing the enemy to expose their sweet spots by physical capabilities. I hope that's clear enough; it's how I interpret the differences between them. Alpha Legion are your Deep Cover Secret Agents (James Bond), the Special Forces/Green Berets are the Raven Guard, while the Night Lords are your CIA PsyOps teams.

To use an example from 40K, as much as I hate to do so, from Graham McNeils UM books. The NL's were attacking an UM position - they displayed (in typical McNeil fashion) just how chaotic and horrible and really quite not very nice people they were by splaying the ribs of captured UM's on their Rhinos. In McNeils writing, this serves nothing other than effectively an over exaggeration to make you feel nothing but hatred for the enemy, the equivalent of some king from prehistory invading another land on the pretext that they eat babies or something. But in reality, it's playing on the opponents psyche - makign them angry and doing irrational stuff.

In Unremembered Empire, Curze did exactly the same. He couldn't cause Fear, per se (although it became apparent he came close to it), but he could force them to dance to his tune. He knew for example that the UM would come to the aid of those still living, so he booby trapped heavily injured UM's, and when he was fighting the two Primarchs, he did it on prepared ground. When he wasn't able to do so, such as in Savage Weapons, he nearly lost in a more straight up fight against the Lion.

Against Nids, whose Hive Mind is such detached, they might not be able to fight to the best of their abilities using all of their specialised training, but like putting Navy SEALs in a regular battle order, you still have some highly effective infantry that you're going to miss out on.

Other legions would similarly suffer from losing their "shtick" or having their preferred style of warfare causing more problems.

Luna Wolves; their shock assaults would have less effect on the Nids. Sure, they have more of a linebreaker role, but that role comes with the certain expectation that the line will break. Unless they can cut through the numbers quick enough, then they're going to grind to a halt and lose all momentum.
World Eaters and Space Wolves; getting into handshake range with a nid is never fun. They might be better suited to killing everything, but there is also a psychological effect that comes from facing Berserker threats - that would be lost. Not to mention their significantly higher bodycount means only more Biomass extraction and an increased Nid threat later on.
Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Iron Hands; lets face it, these are all as stubborn as hell, and are unlikely to give ground; again, more biomass for the Nids.
Raven Guard; the Nids have no infrastructure to speak of, none of it is really truly essential. Their command structure is too decentralized to be too heavily effected, unless they can somehow strike at every Synpapse conduit.
Thousand Sons; Shadow in the Warp is a bit naughty for Psychic Powers.
Alpha Legion; they have no "blueprints" to exploit, short of preparatory tactics (Scorched Earth, etc).

This leaves; 

Dark Angels; we don't know enough about them to say whether their tactics would suffer
Emperor's Children; being "perfect" might actually make them the best Nid counterers, outside of UM - they'd learn from their lessons. However, they'd also be a big risk, they'd likely lose a lot to learn those errors, which means more biomass.
White Scars; their speed could let them choose the battle, but they lose Psychological benefits of flanking etc
Blood Angels; possibly Berserker weaknesses ala SW/WE
Ultramarines; most likely to have some form of adaptive battle tactics. Only weaknesses is a certain pragmatism apparent in other legions, and apparently, Naivete; their lack of pragmatism could lead to failure of Kryptman style solutions, while their Naivete leads to gaps in defences (which Pollux pointed out in UE).
Word Bearers; again, hard to make comment over their battle tactics - they were the regular underachievers. The only thing which made them better was the Emperor's "intervention" on Monarchia, which then turned them to Chaos, ironically, so to keep them in a 40K "fanon" you'd have to discount the censuring of a legion, so they'd still be the lackadaisical proseletizers, and slower at reacting to the threats of the Nids. Conversely though, they may also have a greater battlefield presence - they're still battle capable, and can likely keep up the morale of humanoid allies if they can do their thing.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Anakwanar said:


> *To Phoebus*
> 
> A little flawed logic - because SW haven't lost a ship at Prospero as mentioned in TS


Remember that the novels have not been offering a comprehensive/total perspective of the battles being described. For instance, _Fulgrim_ does not describe the battle we know occurred between the loyalist and traitor fleets. Thus, we shouldn't assume that when the Thousand Sons decided to fight back that their efforts were limited to planet-side. 

For the state of the Space Wolves' fleet at the time of the battle against the Alpha Legion, see _Scars,_ Chapter Two:



> “Dozens of capital vessels hung at rest, immense and turreted, prow-lights blinking gently above the abyss. Each was attended by a school of lesser craft – fleet-runners, frigates, outriders, gunships. All of them had the same battle-burned look, the same scorched enginarium flanks, the same pockmarked hull plates. Some limped along on a scintilla of normal power, enclosed in webs of scaffolding and gun-drones. Others were carved open, exposing striated lattices of inner decks. The flickers of a million arc-welders danced across the honeycombs, pricking the soft murk of the gas clouds.”
> 
> Excerpt From: Chris Wraight. “Scars: Collector's Edition.” iBooks.


Chapter Four of _Scars_ qualifies that the Space Wolves are outgunned and outnumbered by the Alpha Legion:



> “We are outgunned, [Bjorn] thought.
> He performed rough calculations in his head and knew that the strategeos in the flagship would be reaching the same conclusion.
> They would already know how many more ships the Alpha Legion possessed and how quickly their lethal complements could be brought to bear.
> ‘We are outgunned,’ said Godsmote, just a fraction behind, ...
> ...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Luna Wolves; their shock assaults would have less effect on the Nids. Sure, they have more of a linebreaker role, but that role comes with the certain expectation that the line will break. Unless they can cut through the numbers quick enough, then they're going to grind to a halt and lose all momentum.
> World Eaters and Space Wolves; getting into handshake range with a nid is never fun. They might be better suited to killing everything, but there is also a psychological effect that comes from facing Berserker threats - that would be lost. Not to mention their significantly higher bodycount means only more Biomass extraction and an increased Nid threat later on.
> Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Iron Hands; lets face it, these are all as stubborn as hell, and are unlikely to give ground; again, more biomass for the Nids.
> Raven Guard; the Nids have no infrastructure to speak of, none of it is really truly essential. Their command structure is too decentralized to be too heavily effected, unless they can somehow strike at every Synpapse conduit.
> ...


Just for the record a pissed off space wolf had no problems cracking genestealer skulls with regular gauntlets I'd imagine world eaters under the full effect of the nails are going to be even more effective on the nids.

Everything you dismissed as flaws will work against the nids, you're thinking todays military tactics.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. :wink:
> 
> The Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard at their most vulnerable point. Also where that story is concerned, I don't remember _Deliverance Lost_ painting the Alpha Legionnaires as somehow exceptional where close combat is concerned.


well I probably extrapolate fluff too much, I would think that the RG has a specific fighting style like many other legions do, BA, WE, IF, NL, EC,..., I am not sure they already adopted the fighting styles explained in dead sky black sun and the chapter's due, but I feel it would be reasonably to assume they had a personalised cc fighting style. From that I would assume that if you have a infiltratant who was not raised with these styles one could tell immediately, obviously this was not the case in DL, thus my statement that besides everything else, they are equally good in cc as RG (who I would consider a legion above par regarding cc).

it is just my gut feeling, where I come from there are many dialects, that differ from town to town, one can hear the difference and it does not matter how long one lives in the town, if one is not raised with it, locals can always tell. I do not want to use this as a direct example but I feel that some things become so part of you, if you do it from birth, an outsider can never get all details right, I would say similar examples must have been present for the RG, allowing them notice the AL infiltrant unless he is really exceptionel.

I feel it is the one or the other, very good at one thing or average in a lot


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> The Imperial perspective is basically being very humble, however, and acknowledging that Alpharius was very clever, calculating, and forward-thinking in coming up with a scheme for his legion that went beyond the standard "Legiones Astartes" model.


Point taken k:



> 1. Iron Warriors 2. Night Lords 3. Blood Angels 4. The Iron Hands 5. The World Eaters 6. The Death Guard 7. The Word Bearers


Correct me if I'm wrong Pheobus but is not 5 of the 7 above Traitor Legions. I hardly think machinations have to do with your list. Just noting the fact.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You need to re-read my post - specifically, everything that follows the words "My short list ..." :wink:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Just for the record a pissed off space wolf had no problems cracking genestealer skulls with regular gauntlets I'd imagine world eaters under the full effect of the nails are going to be even more effective on the nids.
> 
> Everything you dismissed as flaws will work against the nids, you're thinking todays military tactics.


What? No. Any space marine is capable of squashing the nids. Some might be more effective at close combat, but it's not as big of a tactical advantage, they can only kill so many.

Nids are fearless. They have no Psychology with which you can effect them. There are several "myths" in our own history about how bridges were held against enemy armies by one man - Chang Fei in ancient China apparently held off a million men at a bridge, because they were too scared to face him, while at Stamford Bridge, a "Berserker" held off the english army because they too were scared. And yet, in bother instances, those berserkers still lost the battle.

There is none of that against nids while they are still under synapse from the Hive Mind. Sure, killing the warrior broods is going to make it easier. These flaws I mentioned are exactly that, considering I was talking from a psychological POV. And the added risk is of course losing a Primarch to the Hive Mind. If there was ever to be a change to the Nids, I would love to see how desperate the Ultramarines would get should Macragge itself be threatened by yet another Tyranid assault, a Behemoth Mk2, which actively threatens the stasis chamber of the Primarch. Knowing now how quickly the nids can adapt one that biomass is extracted, A Tyranid with Primarch genes would be amazing to see.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Vaz said:


> . If there was ever to be a change to the Nids, I would love to see how desperate the Ultramarines would get should Macragge itself be threatened by yet another Tyranid assault, a Behemoth Mk2, which actively threatens the stasis chamber of the Primarch. Knowing now how quickly the nids can adapt one that biomass is extracted, A Tyranid with Primarch genes would be amazing to see.


I imagine every Ultramarine would die before they'd let that happen, along with every member of Ultramar's PDF and civilian conscript and any other force they could get their hands on to throw at the nids. I think it would literally be the last place on Macragge to fall and there wouldn't be a whole lot left of Macragge. 

Hell a lot of the Primogenitor chapters would also go down.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Precisely =). It was something that was never touched on in Behemoth - I'd honestly love to see possibly a trilogy of novels, which details some particularly extreme members coming up with the idea of destroying Macragge so that they cannot use the Primarch's genetic information. Possibly with the aid of the Minotaurs, Deathwatch, Inducted Guard, Tempestus Militarum etc, threatening to destroy Macragge should the Tyranids make planetfall. It just seems too convenient for 40K to suddenly have no bureacracy in time to defeat the Nids. Perhaps it might lead to where Kryptman got his ideas from.

having said that, that's a topic for another thread, sorry for the derail.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I'd posit that even the Luna Wolves would be among the least capable force at it


How would you argue that? The Luna Wolves typically aimed for a decapitating strike. They didn't slog through and destroy armies (and the cities they protected). They took out the head and let the rest of the body die on its own.



Vaz said:


> At the time of the design of the AL, or Alpharius himself, there was no such thing as the Tyranids or the Necrons to contend with


...which wasn't my point at all. Something similar to them. A hive-mind or decentralized force that isn't hindered by lines of supply or communication. Take those away, and the Alpha Legion are less powerful.

Again to clarify, not saying they wouldn't succeed in such a war, but they wouldn't have as much as an advantage they would fight against a more human foe.



Vaz said:


> If the Kryptman solution was on the table, then the Alpha Legion would be wholly for it - doubly so if it meant they could get some of the 500 Worlds of Rowboat with it.


Which hardly makes them unique in the Imperium. Anyone with access to the proper weaponry could do it.

If you want to actually hold planets relatively intact, you wouldn't go asking the Alpha Legion to do it--not unless there's some sort of special circumstance or artifact in play.

Which is my point that the Alpha Legion isn't all powerful.



Vaz said:


> Other legions would similarly suffer from losing their "shtick" or having their preferred style of warfare causing more problems.


I'm a bit sad since you wrote so much, but I really don't know to whom or what you're arguing for or against.

No one is saying the Alpha Legion would be the only Legion disadvantaged by fighting a hivemind-like army.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Remember Murder and the megarachnids in Hous Rising? Thats pretty much the legions vs an almost tyranid force. They took quite the beating.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I don't care if the Alpha Legion is portrayed as being superior. Whether we like it or not, the Legiones Astartes are not all equal. That has become more and more obvious with the release of the Horus Heresy novels and the Forge World books. Think about it objectively:
> 
> 1. The Iron Warriors are portrayed as specialists whose relationship with their increasingly volatile primarch is complicated at best.
> 2. Once reunited with the Night Haunter, the Night Lords swiftly became a legion of murderers and rapists who generally didn't trust one another.
> ...


It's interesting that you say the Dark Angels. I always viewed the Dark Angels as a legion that thought themselves united but still had factions that caused their downfall. They are still very culture oriented, I always viewed the Alpha Legion more like the Ultramarines in the sense the entire organization/force is devoted to a grander design. The Alpha Legion is never really defined but we know that at least the Ultramarines was devoted to its own empire and later on saving the Imperium.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would be interested in what people think the Alpha Legion's flaws and weaknesses were/are?


Force structure is one that has been stated before, however I would say that direct combat on the ground as well as space would be a great threat. In fact, their unsuccessful ambush of the Wolves of Fenris could be a blow that the Alpha Legion never recovers from. The Dark Angels essentially catch them by surprise and cripple their fleets. I imagine a lot of information as well as much of their chain of command is put into confusion and disarray that leave their legion in war bands forever. 

I view the Alpha Legion post-heresy as a bunch of war bands who think they are up to some grander scheme, however I also think this is a ploy in order for their higher chain of command to keep their war bands in some type of order. The reason is that such a complex organization (which has also made its structure delicate) must be a head of the game at all times. If it is crushed, it puts it in a state of confusion forever. If you are part of the force and you saw "Alpharius" die… then what?



Phoebus said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. :wink:
> 
> The Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard at their most vulnerable point. Also where that story is concerned, I don't remember _Deliverance Lost_ painting the Alpha Legionnaires as somehow exceptional where close combat is concerned.
> 
> Where void war is concerned, _Scars_ shows them employ trickery to stall the White Scars. They do a number on the Space Wolves, but they we can assume they outnumbered the VI Legion and had the advantage of their opponent coming off of a mauling at Prospero.


I prefer to think of _Deliverance Lost_ as an illusion much like _Battle of the Abyss._


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> You need to re-read my post - specifically, everything that follows the words "My short list ..." :wink:


I think the idea that the Alpha Legion maybe superior to other legions is pretty interesting. Guilliman criticized the legion for unnecessarily toying and wasting its time during the crusade. I could see a face of superiority if they actually had a grander scheme. However, because they essentially were part of a force that destroyed the Emperor's Imperium and design, he was essentially just a toy. In _Deliverance Lost_, its almost comical that he tries to play Horus and the forces of chaos by contaminating the template and keeping the other in his back pocket. One could also say that this legion is more pathetic than the Emperor's Children. At least they are getting what they always wanted in a very perverse form. I just think how devastating it would be for just one Alpha Legionary to be tainted by chaos. This notion that they think they are superior is just hubris. They haven't really accomplished anything, even though they may have different say about it, they would probably be wrong if asked who Alpharius is.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> How would you argue that? The Luna Wolves typically aimed for a decapitating strike. They didn't slog through and destroy armies (and the cities they protected). They took out the head and let the rest of the body die on its own.


Derp. Just remembered that the reason the Luna Wolves got their name was from a mission entirely like that; in HH:Betrayal the Luna Gene-cults pacification. However - it is apparent that without access to the information, it would have been a lot harder.



> ...which wasn't my point at all. Something similar to them. A hive-mind or decentralized force that isn't hindered by lines of supply or communication. Take those away, and the Alpha Legion are less powerful.
> 
> Again to clarify, not saying they wouldn't succeed in such a war, but they wouldn't have as much as an advantage they would fight against a more human foe.
> 
> ...


Among Astartes, on a venerated homeworld of a Primarch, however. During the Heresy, it's not hard to imagine, but I can't really foresee anyone outside of Russes deliberate misiniterpretation of orders prior to the Heresy being too keen on outright attacking a primarchs home (unless it was there own - Curze and Perty notwithstanding). Even Angron (again, read Lord of the Red Sands if anyone believes otherwise).



> If you want to actually hold planets relatively intact, you wouldn't go asking the Alpha Legion to do it--not unless there's some sort of special circumstance or artifact in play.
> 
> Which is my point that the Alpha Legion isn't all powerful.
> 
> I'm a bit sad since you wrote so much, but I really don't know to whom or what you're arguing for or against.


Don't be. I didnt' write so much to end discussion and "because I wrote a lot I must be correct", I did it to well, discuss =D. If there was a planet to hold intact, I'd send the UM first, followed by the IF, then Salamanders, and even the IH. IW maybe, but having them sit garrison duty or only get rolled out whenever they needed to dig a trench is what got them into this mess. The issue with the IF and the IW, they're likely to turn anything into a competition of who can build the biggest sandcastle, although if AE is to be believed, then Perty would prefer to make some pretty buildings too.

On the other hand, the Sons of Horus (I've changed my thoughts on them), White Scars, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Raven Guard are the Legions I'd choose to take a city intact. Take. Not hold. I have the feeling that if you still require Legionaries to hold garrison, you didn't do a good enough job in the first place.

The Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons occupy a special position out of the remainder, but the EC strove to excel at all kinds of warfare - which might make a surgical strike perfect, but honestly, I think their martial hubris would get in the way, leaving them to be sucker punched (Loken vs Lucius), while the TS have their unique gifts which would aid in that, but for some reason, the idea of a surgical strike force of 1K doesn't really make sense - if anything because we've not seen anything like their capabilities outside of mass maneuvres - compared to (ironically) the Alpha Legion which has more information regarding their fighting capabilities as opposed near enough any other legion.



> No one is saying the Alpha Legion would be the only Legion disadvantaged by fighting a hivemind-like army.


But...But... yeah. =D


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Not everything pumped out by BL/GW/FW about the AL is meant to be viewed with the 'they're all lies. inquisitor kravin, edward snowden, did 9/11 happen??? etc.' bit.


...but this is an account of the Alpha Legion written from an in-universe, outsider's perspective. You should know better


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> ...but this is an account of the Alpha Legion written from an in-universe, outsider's perspective.


What's your point?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What's your point?


My point is that you have to read the Alpha Legion section in Extermination with a grain of salt, instead of taking everything at face value


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> My point is that you have to read the Alpha Legion section in Extermination with a grain of salt, instead of taking everything at face value





Vaz said:


> These are observational reports, or BDA's for want of another term. These are assessments and insights into what the Alpha Legion are portrayed as, with recurse to their flaws (such as near inability to work with). The wording comes across as honest - and to change all that to simply make it be another AL propaganda piece when no other article on a legion does so would be doing an immense disservice to making the AL one of the most interesting legions to read about - for example, there's no mention of Omegon expressly that I can remember. Omegon is a complete secret if you've not read the novels, I think.
> 
> Seriously - even with "Legion" regularly cited as being one of the best books in the HH series, the AL still didn't striike a chord with me until now.





Phoebus said:


> Beyond that, the point of view is of a writer from _the Imperial perspective,_ following the events being described. Your points would thus be apropos if the writer said that the Alpha Legion sucks and the Imperial Fists are way better than them (or whatever)... but that's not what is being proposed. The Imperial perspective is basically being very humble, however, and acknowledging that Alpharius was very clever, calculating, and forward-thinking in coming up with a scheme for his legion that went beyond the standard "Legiones Astartes" model.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> it would have been a lot harder.


I'm at work, so I don't have my books handy, but I think this was Horus's (and likely the entire Legion's) favored tactic. I think it states so in the opening chapter or two of _Horus Rising_. The "Speartip" as it was called, no? 

It wasn't a one-off sort of deal. 



Vaz said:


> Among Astartes, on a venerated homeworld of a Primarch, however.


Maybe, maybe not. I think most Primarchs would be willing to virus bomb their own homeworlds if it looked lost. Either as a gesture of mercy to the soon-to-be-devoured (for Vulkan and Corax) or for more pragmatic reasons (Alpharius, Manus).



Vaz said:


> I can't really foresee anyone outside of Russes deliberate misiniterpretation of orders prior to the Heresy being too keen on outright attacking a primarchs hom


I don't think Russ "misinterpreted" orders. Not according to _Prospero Burns_.



Vaz said:


> too keen on outright attacking a primarchs home


Why would you say that? Are you talking in terms of purely militaristic pragmatism (IE homeworlds are too tough to crack?) Or some other reason?

I don't think the Traitors would have been morally inhibited from razing and salting their enemies homeworlds. Look at what the World Eaters and Word Bearers did to Calth and the other 500-worlds.

Or what the Emperor's Children did on Terra.

The Night Lords were nearly as bad.

And we know the Loyalists were more than happy to raze Traitor homeworlds post-Heresy. I have no reason to believe they'd be unwilling to do so during the Heresy, if the opportunity arose.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

I personally consider Alpha Legion as the one of the best, brightest and most able Legion. Unquestionably they achieved a lot in the short order of time. Even though they united with their Primarch uttermost lately, they conquest is amongst the most faster and perfect, although as side effect, they utterly disregarding infrastructure damage, lives of civilian and indeed, productivity of conquered worlds. They no know mercy, honour or quarter. Futher, they completely devoid of sense of moral, ethics or compunction and indeed, they coldly view each and every conquest as a sort of challenging-various degree, of course-game, that of they must perform perfectly, flawlessly and professionally. These factors doubtlessly made them infamous, even notorious among their 'cousin' Legions, Imperial Army, and larger Imperium; though definitely not same degree of the World Eaters, Death Guard, Night Lords and Iron Warriors. These awareness certainly not help promoting or advancing their reputation, and indeed 20th Legion does not care their abstract concpets like honour, reputation or renown at all. 

Here is the list of Legion apprised as the most capable and achieving both military and Imperium as whole.

The First, the Tenth, the Seventh, the Ninth, the Thirteenth, and the Sixteenth. Even among these resplendent rank, the 1st, the 13th and the 16th repetitively said the most capable, achieving, versatile and renowned among all of the Legiones Astartes, both in the HH Novels and Forge World Books. I consider Alpha Legion is a fighting force of at least equal of them, if not superior, in terms of competitiveness, capability and all-roundness.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> they conquest is amongst the most faster


I disagree. It was one of the shortcomings of the Alpha Legion. The actual taking of a world may happen over night, but it took weeks, months, or years of preparation. 

If I wanted a world taken in a day, I'd send the Luna Wolves.



Ecumene said:


> they utterly disregarding infrastructure damage, lives of civilian and indeed, productivity of conquered worlds


Completely disagree here. The Alpha Legion were absolutely meticulous about everything. If there was infrastructure damage or civilian deaths, they were planned to the bullet and gram of explosive. There was only damage if the Alpha Legion planned for there to be damage.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah they took a cumbersome set-up. Think of them as a technician at work. They did it to the best of their ability, but it took time and was unconventional unlike the Ultramarines which greatly lead to their mutual dislike.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

hailene said:


> I disagree. It was one of the shortcomings of the Alpha Legion. The actual taking of a world may happen over night, but it took weeks, months, or years of preparation. If I wanted a world taken in a day, I'd send the Luna Wolves.



I completely disagree with you in this regard. Alpha Legion's pace of conquest is, if anything, one of faster, actually, at least after Alpharius took command of his Legion. Let's see _Extermination_ P.84; 

'...Although history as an active Legion was a short one compared to manyㅡat least under its own nameㅡit proves quickly determined to mach any of its brothers in gloryㅡor perhaps more accurately prove itself superior to themㅡ_and its tally of victory mounted with surprising speed_. The Alpha Legion, ever watchful, war far from averse from studying the strength of their follow Legions, and their weaknesses, and _adapting the weapons and tactics of the other Legiones Astartes to their own ends._ In this the Legion was not so different to the strategic observances of the Ultramarines Chapter and their master, although it is doubtful that the Lords of Ultramar would have cared much for the comparison, even before the two Leigons later come to bitter bloodshed. Such zealousness to prove themselves as part of Great Crusade at any cost, and the often over-elaborate and needlessly complex and malign way in which the Alpha Legion chose to wage war saw them quickly gain infamy more than fame...'

Thus yes, even with these immense, largely self-imposed drawbacks and disadvantages, their speed of conquest is doubtlessly rapid, and if they really want, they could utilize, or integrate, other Legions tactical and strategical doctrine readily on their overall stratagems to precipitate faster subjugation; 20th Legion actually conduct this procedures with great frequency. Alpha Legion's conquest pace was not on of the fastest, likes Luna Wolves or Dark Angels, and nor I claimed they are, or even implied like that. But still they are one of the faster Legions, regardless it takes how long time that they are planting agents, contriving intrigues and infiltration/sabotage and planning overall grand stratagems. 





hailene said:


> Completely disagree here. The Alpha Legion were absolutely meticulous about everything. If there was infrastructure damage or civilian deaths, they were planned to the bullet and gram of explosive. There was only damage if the Alpha Legion planned for there to be damage.



Yes, in principle, your assessment is true. 'The Alpha Legion were absolutely meticulous about everything.' 

But no, it is NOT the what I meant, not at allㅡI have meant more 'humanistic' approach of prosecuting warfare and actual _regard and care_ of civilian lives and infrastructures damage.

For example, let's see Ultramarines. They are equally meticulous about everything, also Emperor's Children and perhaps Dark Angles. However their concomitant features virtually ends here. 

Remember, the likes of Ultramarines actually _sincerely cares_ about civilian deaths and infrastructure destruction. Their methods of war are tempered by moral and ethical considerations and predicated on firmly observed codes of conduct and strict regulations imposed by themselves. Not solely in the name of 'efficiency' or 'professionalism' but for actual humanistic approach of war and actual care about mortal lives. Whereas Alpha Legion only preserve human lives and infrastructure in boundary of 'efficiency'. No doubt they happily inflict collateral damages if it is necessary, nay, useful facilitate their grand stratagem. In fact, they followed exactly this methodology in executing warfare. _Without any exception_. They merely does not include unnecessary, collateral damages in their overall stratagem. And it is only because they think causing superfluous collateral damages are ineffective, clumsy, unprofessional, and ultimately imperfect way of waging war, not any actual care of civilian lives. Speak candidly, it is doubtful they pay attention human lives more than the likes of World Eaters or Night Lords in humanistic aspects.

Do you remember incident of the Tesstra Compliance, beginning of long term rivalry and, even enmity, between Ultramarines and Alpha Legion? That is hallmark of two Legion's fundamental differecne. In this war, Alpha Legion directly and indirectly murdered approximately *Ninety Percent of whole planetary population*. Even though their methods are more roundabout and less blunt, yes, they are no better than Death Guard conducting warfare, at least in this cast at all. And this answer unequivocally reveal actual mindset of Alpharius, and to the extent, Alpha Legion itself.

'Afterward, when Guilliman questioned Alpharius why he had not simply seized the capital before the defending armies had arrived to further fortify it, or why he did not strike at the heart of its governance and take over instead of laying city to waste, Alpharius was said to have replied _"It would have been to easy."_'

Quite caring about infrastructure damage and civilian deaths, don't you think thus?

To the Alpha Legion, conducting war is, ultimately, playing multifaceted and multifarious of challenging-to the various degree, of course-strategic board game(and as 'Little Horus' short story says, it is rare to find complex strategic war games are not developed in Primarch's adopted worlds, thus I think it is not surprising at all Alpharius view each and every war as a sort of particular, intriguing game). They actually view each and every of their conquest exactly like that. And to play perfect game, it is recommendable minimize unnecessary lose and damage. Because it detruncate their score, thus make them less capable, less worthy, perhaps perceived even 'inferior' in the eyes of their 'brother', more senior Legions. 

Oh yes, as the lastly christened Legion, Alpha Legion have massive superiority complexㅡas you can see in the cases like Tesstra Compliance, Alpha Legion do absolutely anything, hold nothing back, without a scent moral scruple or compunction or remorse to prove their tactical acumen, professional commitment and ultimately, their overall impregnable superiority.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> I completely disagree with you in this issue.


Which is fine, since you're purporting something I never said.

I said that if you wanted to take a planet in a day, I'd go to the Luna Wolves. Never that the Luna Wolves took the most planets per a given time frame (though they did up until the latter portion of the Great Crusade, a crown they lost to the Word Bearers).

But whether or not their victories mounted with "surprising speed" does not mean they are most suited to take a planet in a single, overt swoop with little to no preparation.



Ecumene said:


> But no, it is NOT the what I meant,


Well, I feel bad you had to write that all due to a mistake in word choice.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

hailene said:


> Which is fine, since you're purporting something I never said.
> 
> I said that if you wanted to take a planet in a day, I'd go to the Luna Wolves. Never that the Luna Wolves took the most planets per a given time frame (though they did up until the latter portion of the Great Crusade, a crown they lost to the Word Bearers).
> 
> But whether or not their victories mounted with "surprising speed" does not mean they are most suited to take a planet in a single, overt swoop with little to no preparation.


But you initially argued about my opinion of 'Alpha Legion crusading pace is faster than many other Legions', didn't you? If what I have said is beyond your recollection, see your previous comments. Thus I refuted accordingly. 





hailene said:


> Well, I feel bad you had to write that all due to a mistake in word choice.



You don't need to feel bad at all. Because I did exactly what I wanted, thus I do not regret a bit, nor bear ill will toward you because of that. If I really wanted to say a few words, I would have said simply 'that is not what I meant', after all. And besides, long belaboring is my one of my customary practices.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So the Alpha Legion was one of the largest legions, one of the fastest at conquest, and one of the most strategically and technologically advanced of all the legions?

They seem like they have few to no true weaknesses, and seem like one of the most powerful legions compared to their brothers?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> But you initially argued about my opinion of 'Alpha Legion crusading pace is faster than many other Legions', didn't you?


Actually, to quote you exactly, what I was arguing about " they conquest is amongst the most faster". But is their crusading pace faster? I still have my doubts.

Let me get more specific.

In a single theater, I have an inkling that most times the Alpha Legion will be slower. For an average situation (whatever average may be in a galaxy-wide crusade).

The Index Astartes gives a possible way out. It says the Alpha Legion's method of war took longer than a frontal assault (like say what the Luna Wolves would do), but it also allowed the Alpha Legion to spread its forces thinner and hence have more buns baking in more ovens at once, if you follow my analogy.

And, at least in my opinion, this jives with how things "ought" to work.

Instead of doing a frontal assault that'll take a planet in a week and take 10,000 marines, the Alpha Legion could spread those 10,000 marines across 100 systems and take each planet within a year. 

Unless you were talking about conquest in a more macro sense, then I would agree with you. The Alpha Legion can conquer more with less and, given enough time, they can conquer more in the end.



Ecumene said:


> And besides, long belaboring is my one of my customary practices.


I usually find it better to keep things simple and on target. Less chance to wander.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

What do you guys think? Always wanted to do this and the recent Extermination's revamp on the AL look sealed the deal.










by http://alexheath.artstation.com/


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Don't like.

Porportions are too human. Notably the gauntlets and face. Astartes are known to have massive, almost equine heads.

Dubious about the hair. This is pre-Heresy, right? Shouldn't he look more like Alphairus (IE shaved head)? Maybe he's doing an infiltration mission that requires him to look that way, I don't know...

Without any knowledge of the author (so a real shot in the dark), I'd guess he has had limited exposure to written fluff. Maybe he's a table top player or played one of the computer games...maybe a friend or client asked him to draw the picture. 

Or maybe he just wants to put a more human spin on the Space Marines, who knows?(Certainly not me!)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Don't like.
> 
> Porportions are too human. Notably the gauntlets and face. Astartes are known to have massive, almost equine heads.
> 
> ...


You do realize I asked him to draw me as a Space Marine right? :laugh:

Everything else I agree could have been worked on in some aspects but his style of art intrigued me so I gave him some artistic freedom and all that jazz.

Also, this was something I had him look at so the gauntlets/head-size based on the video isn't that far off.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Also, this was something I had him look at so the gauntlets/head-size based on the video isn't that far off.


Nah, the hand is just absolutely tiny.

The one from the DW2 opening...it reaches his hairline, at the least!

Even our hands (or at least my hands) go from my chin to a little past my eyebrows.

The one in your picture wouldn't even reach the bottom of his eyes! This is including the gauntlet.

So I was right when I said the artist didn't have much background on the fluff, right? Not saying the artist is bad (since he's a trillion times better than my stickmen in paint), but it didn't seem to...jive, with the images and dialogue we're given in fluff.

Not that the official art is all that solid on matching the written fluff.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What do you guys think? Always wanted to do this and the recent Extermination's revamp on the AL look sealed the deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is my favorite picture of a space marine so far, I really like the human look better than the giant disfigured look.

Also is that Alpharius?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Does no one notice the Eldar? I thought it was a nice touch.

And yes he and I are one.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

hailene said:


> Actually, to quote you exactly, what I was arguing about " they conquest is amongst the most faster". But is their crusading pace faster? I still have my doubts.
> 
> Let me get more specific.
> 
> ...



1. Thus are you saying 'Alpha Legion's conquest pace par each worlds and systems are slower than most Legion, but given macroscopic perspective, they might conquest more swift than most of Legions'?

2. Initially I considered to omit 'most'; I wanted to accentuate Alpha's conquest pace but finally decided to leave it intact and elucidate minutely in the next comment-in retrospect, a regrettable choice. 

3. Index Astartes is old, worn-out material. It is actually obsoleted after release of various newer material. And for the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy era, our new canon is no other than Forge World Horus Heresy book. Thus I think IAs have virtually no value as valid source material. So many aspects are changed dramatically. 

4. And I really curious. These are your intrinsic way of speech or sincere advise/sorry/regret/concern? If not, are you merely being sarcastic and make innuendos from start to finish?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> 1. Thus are you saying 'Alpha Legion's conquest pace par each worlds and systems are slower than most Legion, but given macroscopic perspective, they might conquest more swift than most of Legions'?


Correct. Mostly because they can spread themselves thinner while still accomplishing their goals.



Ecumene said:


> Thus I *think *IAs have virtually no value as valid source material.


That's your prerogative. Seems a little odd to discard fluff on a whim...particularly when newer fluff does not contradict it. Where do you draw the line? A year? 2? 5? 10? 

_Horus Rising_ came out over 8 years ago. Is it time to shelve it soon?




Ecumene said:


> These are your intrinsic way of speech or sincere advise/sorry/regret/concern? If not, are you merely being sarcastic and make innuendos from start to finish?


Just like the rest of humanity, hard to paint with such broad strokes. Usually I'm pretty sincere. Takes a bit to piss me off and get me sarcastic.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

hailene said:


> Correct. Mostly because they can spread themselves thinner while still accomplishing their goals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. My Prerogative? Perhaps. But you are also. Horus Rising is one of HH series and incipience of Horus Heresy, and this is quite different from case of other books, such as Codex. Compare IA and HH books. Whereas Codex is maintaining innate consistency, but two books are so different it seems almost like alien. 

2. Oh, so I makes you angry almost from the beginning because of my opinion about capability of Alpha Legion? Quite interesting. If so, why?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> If so, why?


Never said I was pissed. And I'm not.

Interesting conclusion on your part, though.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Hunt for Voldorious


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> Hunt for Voldorious


I pretend that book didn't happen. Or that it was some super elaborate Alpha Legion plan that has yet to bear fruit.

It helps me sleep at night.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

But it did, it definitely did...


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> But it did, it definitely did...


No, no...it couldn't have. It's in Imperial records, true, but it was planted by an Alpha Legion agent to make the Imperium underestimate the Alpha Legion. It made the Alpha Legion look like a bunch of generic, retarded bad guys. Lulls them into thinking the Alpha Legion is retarded.

The Long Game, you see? Yeah?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> No, no...it couldn't have. It's in Imperial records, true, but it was planted by an Alpha Legion agent to make the Imperium underestimate the Alpha Legion. It made the Alpha Legion look like a bunch of generic, retarded bad guys. Lulls them into thinking the Alpha Legion is retarded.
> 
> The Long Game, you see? Yeah?


I like this justification. :laugh:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm skeptical about Alpha Legion abilities. I think in order for the Alpha Legion to really be perceived as it is, it would have to have some kind of fail safe self defensive from exposing its own self. 

I mean if you think of it this way, theres no objective to the Alpha Legion but to look cool. Does that really attract the right candidates for the Alpha Legion's services.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> it would have to have some kind of fail safe self defensive from exposing its own self.


What do you mean precisely? I know the Legion is highly compartmentalized and has a very flat hierarchy. 



ckcrawford said:


> theres no objective to the Alpha Legion but to look cool.


Nah, they're results first and looks second (albeit a very, very close second). Page 87 of _Extermination_ goes into detail about how they selected potential legionaries. 

Most interesting, I think, is how they grouped aspirants into groups to tackle whatever task. And either the group succeeded or it failed.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> What do you mean precisely? I know the Legion is highly compartmentalized and has a very flat hierarchy.


More along the lines of independent thought and ambition. As probably the best intelligence agency in 40k they probably have lots of aspirants trying to make a difference in the universe. In fact, the only reason to stay loyal to the Alpha Legion is just that.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> More along the lines of independent thought and ambition.


So going back to your earlier post...you doubt the Alpha Legion could be as capable as they are said to be....because their members may not have sufficient independent thought and ambition as individuals?


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