# So why the hate?



## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

I've noticed in several areas (not just here) there is a general level of hate for the space marines. Is there a specific reason? Or is it because it's the first army most folks play?


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

Yeah its that and the fact their GWs poster boys and being shoved down everyones throats...


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

yeah that's about it.
it's the same for most armies; if it's not yours, you will hate it.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I don't hate, but I do dislike that over half the armies in the local (and other) tourneys happen to be the same army with different paint jobs.

I played DA, up to 8500pts, for about 1 year. During that year I lost only twice and had a huge winning streak of about 70+ games. I played the Battle Company, the Deathwing, and the Ravenwing, but found very few players who could go up against a challenging army and defeat it. Soon, everyone was shying away from not only purchasing Space Marines, but playing as/against them as well. 

I started an IG army and have had much more fun playing 40K. I still don't consider Space Marines to be a challenge for me, making the games with SMs a bit boring still.

Xenos armies, and the drastic changes to the game experience offered by such varied armies, make for better games in my opinion.

Give me a Mech Tau, Mech Eldar, Godzilla/Stealer list, or huge Ork Waaaaaugh! opponent any day of the week.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

It is because the Space Marines are the beginners army, They need a 3+ for almost everything and are pretty strait out o fthe box easy to play, that and they do get shoved down your throat. I wish Tau would have been out when I was first starting to play, I think I would have a large Tau army riht about now.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I don't hate SM. I hate Chaos.


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

Hespithe said:


> <snippage>
> I started an IG army and have had much more fun playing 40K. I still don't consider Space Marines to be a challenge for me, making the games with SMs a bit boring still.
> 
> Xenos armies, and the drastic changes to the game experience offered by such varied armies, make for better games in my opinion.
> ...


That's kind of wierd in a way, locally we have way more chaos than anything else, xeno's and marines are usually second tier armies.

Everytime I've been down to the LFGS, most folks are ragging on the marines and either complaining they're cheesy, or they suck. Of course these are the same guys who were often fielding alpha strike chaos armies full of chosen and plasma rifles.

I can't help but find it ironic that they'd scream how cheesy the marine Assault cannons are, while they're deploying enough firepower to level out 2-3 squads in one turn with no armor saves, and their demon prince with either lash of torment, or the whole 15 attack routine.

I take it all in stride. I just keep wondering why?


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

i really don't see space marines as being crazy good. and i dont feel like they are crammed down anyones throughts.

Ive been playing for 1.5 year, and Ive seen more stuff come out for other armies than marines. also, I am also extremely outnumbered all the time, and its quite frustrating going up against 6-7 scoring units for 3 or 4 of mine, especially when alot of those one man units can easily destroy more than half of my troop squads single handed.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Chaos seems to be the easiest army to cheese out. Thoughts?


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> Chaos seems to be the easiest army to cheese out. Thoughts?


I've noticed that, though I'm more concerned with Dark eldar armies. Fortunately, there are none locally. (I own the codex, but no mini's yet) I guess in a way though, the local chaos players all tend towards the same combinations and always use them. I've developed some tactics that work against it, but not always.

So far, I've seen mostly variations on the alpha strike model army, (lots of chosen with plasma rifles, deep striking terminators and terminator lords) and the slanesh whip o doom army (lash of torment, plasma cannons)


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Decked out daemon prince and bloodthirster model is what I've seen. Daemon prince has 2+ save, demonic flight, and 4 wounds. What's a poor Guard player to do?


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

Hate is something i reserve for special occassions only. But in truth i think the space marines are most ired because they are everywhere. As a beginner army for most newcomers everyone and his dog has once owned or still does a space marine army. You go into GW and at least a 1/4 of the 40k area is space marines. After playing for awhile many get tired of seeing them on the battlefield, seeing them in the store, hearing about how they did something in every battle report ever written ever. They've just become common place, the norm, the basic, the vanilla. 

They're the mainstream, the 40k 'golden child' if you will. I guess some people feel cheated. I mean not everyone wants to collect marines, yet they push them like its the best thing ever. What are we supposed to think? I mean while GW happily whittles away the eldar and chaos army specific rules they re-release the dark angels codex. An army specific rulebook. Sound messed up to anyone else? Its nothing personal against the greatest servants of the god emperor, really. Its just were spammed with them too much. If GW layed off the trying to shove marines into every orifice at once i'm sure support would pick up for them again.


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## kharnthebetrayer (Nov 26, 2007)

Engelus said:


> i really don't see space marines as being crazy good. and i dont feel like they are crammed down anyones throughts.
> 
> Ive been playing for 1.5 year, and Ive seen more stuff come out for other armies than marines. also, I am also extremely outnumbered all the time, and its quite frustrating going up against 6-7 scoring units for 3 or 4 of mine, especially when alot of those one man units can easily destroy more than half of my troop squads single handed.


Although I agree that Space Marines are not all that better than other armies, I definetly see how people think the Space Marines are bieng over emphasized. If you look at the Black Library Fiction almost all the novels involve Space Marines. Although the IG have series like Gaunt's Ghosts, 
the Space Marines have the Space Wolves Omnibus, the Soul Drinkers Omnibus, the Ultramarines Omnibus, the Horus Heresy Series, and numerous other books. Compared to the amount of novels about other factions the number of stories about the Space Marines is ubsurd. How many books are there about Eldar? 

I can also see how people might think that Space Marines are too powerfull. If someone isn't the best player, plays as an army other than SM, and gets beaten almost all the time, they will most likely get bitter. Since most of the armies out there are Marines, it is really easy to blame them for losses when the person doesn't have the tactical skill to win with a more complex army, such as Tau and Eldar. And since GW emphasizes SM so much more than other armies, it is even easier to get bitter.

I know this doesn't apply to everyone, it is just my best attempt to explain some of the hatred that flows toward the Space Marines.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I'd have to agree with what many of the others said here. They're the poster boys of GW and are very popular. I think it's telliong when someone goes to a 30-person tournament and there is 1 tau player, 2 eldar, 2 tyranid, and the rest space marines. They're very tough and generally forgiving. It's also to be envious of their stat block from almost any other race's point of view (the tau equivalent of terminators only has a 3+ save). SM really don't have a weakness either. They can shoot well, they're tough with a good armor save, they can field great melee units, they can be fairly mobile, and none of their units are really poor. Who uses vespids? Rippers? (besides nidzilla who uses them to fill required FOC slots)

So, they're immensely popular and good at everything. Of course they're disliked. At first I refused to play them on principle. However, I've since had a lot of fun with weird SM lists, like the dread dreadnought army (6 dreads 3 speeders, 11 marines on foot. If you add in the 2 in each speeder, that's 17 live marines and 6 dead ones :biggrin

However, chaos are just as popular nowadays if not more so than loyalists, likely due to the marine counterculture. Being chaos means you can play the do-anything-and-rock-at-it models while not actually playing marines. Seems like a lot of people try to play them with loyalist strategies though, and generally don't do it as well.


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

Hey i play marines and i like them and all but could i incorparate some guard into my army as i really like them as well...thoughts


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Unless you field two force organization charts, you can't incorporate guard into SM armies or vice versa.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

actually thats totally not true, you can have inquisitorial storm troopers as an ally, and if you wanna paint them up like cadian ksirkins i seriously doubt that youd have any problems at a tournament.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Those are not guard. Those are storm troopers from the Inquisitor codexes. Big difference.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> Chaos seems to be the easiest army to cheese out. Thoughts?


I tried taking a non cheesed out chaos list to a tournament, no assault canons on the terminators, no lash of submission, no giant gobs of tzeentch foot soldiers and no obliterators...Also I brought a dred!
In short, I barely eeked out two wins out of fours games.
The dreadnaught managed to gimp at least fifty points out of my list in pure uselessness.
So yeeeah...hahahah bad choice.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't see SM as being shoved down anyone's throats. They are essentially a starter army, and pretty much the poster child of GW, but they are miles from being overpowered (underpowered IMO) and very simple to use.


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

yeah i think their just easy to use thats it don't know why everyone has that much hating reserved for them :scratchhead::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

It's also because every campaign EVER the Imperium has won, because SO MANY people play Space Marines. I play my Mountain Angels a lot, but switch to Word Bearers religiously in a campaign setting.

-Dirge


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## The_Enemy_Without (Jan 22, 2008)

Is anything involving Word Bearers NOT religious?

All in all, I feel Space Marines are disliked as a whole because they are the most played army by the stereotypical 'bad player', who doesn't paint, values power over theme, etc.


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

they are designed to be the most popular by gw. 40k is entirely based around them 
I would say the majority reason is because evry time somone wants a game 90% of opp have marines and they are simply tired of playing marines 90% of the time or more.

Personally I feel there are plenty of diff chapters and variety of lists of marines to go around playing against.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

angels of fire said:


> Yeah its that and the fact their GWs poster boys and being shoved down everyones throats...


I happen to like having space marine shoved down my throat, thank you.


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## Ezekial Lightning (Oct 30, 2007)

I dont have anything against SM they were my first army and i learned how to play with them. but now that i look around i see that people are right. While i love the new DA codex i honestly think they should have updated the DE and other codexes first.


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## danjbrierton (Dec 2, 2007)

Marines, the easiest army to learn, one of the hardest to master. Most people hate them because 75% of people who play marines don't have a painted, based, undercoated, or properly assembled army. Why? Because that's what is easiest to hook the noobs on. That's why there's such an emphasis on them.

As far as chaos being over powered, I think now they are balanced. Last codex they were OP, now they are just another list that if put into the right hands can be a challenge. Getting shot by plasma? stay in cover. Zug Zug!

~dan


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## obsidian492 (Nov 14, 2007)

While I wouldn't say I HATE Space Marine armies and those who play them, I certainly do notice quite a bit of disdain in my main (informal) gaming group. SMs are a beginners list, no doubt, but none of us actually started on them.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

The vteran marine lists are pretty fun to play against as you normally don't play against such similar lists. Like in one game i got victoriously salughtered but i still liked the game as it was totally different and unexpected with very little cheese (it was mostly bad rolling on my part). But i don't feel as though there always in your face. And besides, who doesn't like the horus heresy?


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Steel Rain said:


> Decked out daemon prince and bloodthirster model is what I've seen. Daemon prince has 2+ save, demonic flight, and 4 wounds. What's a poor Guard player to do?


Break and shoot. And show them no matter how many points they spend on fancy upgrades, Plasma still burns as much as ever.

Not that it matters anymore anyway, the new stats and lack of choices for the Daemon Prince leaves them pretty weak IMO.


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Well how do you guys feel about playing against daemonhunters?
Back when I played nids I only played against them once I think, and they were with IG.
Now I'm about to finish up painting/ basing my first 2 squads of GKs and my termies/ GM and I'd like to know if everyone I play is going to think my army is boring/ cheesy (probably not cheesy lol but might as well check).


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i collected space marines

then blood angels and eldar

now its wolves and eldar


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> I don't see SM as being shoved down anyone's throats. They are essentially a starter army, and pretty much the poster child of GW, but they are miles from being overpowered (underpowered IMO) and very simple to use.


I find this comment supremely ironic, considering the fact that you list 3(!) space marine armies and a chaos space marine army (which are only marginly more acceptable) as armies in you sig. Point made? I think so.

Another part of the hatred is the irony of it all. Space marines are the emperors chosen, never seen outside a battlefield, and rarely seen on one, except in the most dire need. However, if you totalled up all the armies from all the games systems from all the players across the world, over 50% would be space marines. There is'nt any mystery when all you see everywhere are space nazis in power armour. Eugenicised indoctrinated pinnacles of the human race, bred to commit genocide on an apocalyptic scale upon anyone even slightly different. If Hitler played 40k they would be his army of choice. Not to mention the homoeroticism and the paedophilia, what with all the grooming of young initiates. Sexism, specieism. Basically, everything our society teaches us to deplore, theyve got it in spades.

Whoever made the points about hatred due to poorly painted models and tendancy to be played by asshats, good point. Well made.

Whoever pointed out that they release Space marine sub lists as full codices. Good point, well made. Another facet to this argument is that a lot of the sub lists for other races have basically been removed or banned. One rule for marine players, another rule for everyone else.

Max respect to whoever admitted the DA codex was unnecessary. I'll find you and rep you for that. Its good to see someone who can see beyond the spacemarine love orgy.

To all the space marine spammers on this site, the gauntlet has been laid down. Us space marine haters have made our arguments (quite eloquently and articulately i might add). I'd like to see some real counter arguments. Not just knee jerk reactions of 'No no! Its not true i tell you! Youre all wrong!'

Ultramarine players: There is a special hell reserved for you.

Get some individuality, all of you.

Signed, Panda.


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## roricon (Jan 11, 2008)

Pandawithissues... said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Whoever made the points about hatred due to poorly painted models and tendancy to be played by asshats, good point. Well made.


That's especially bad when playing in a school environment, because as I've mentioned somewhere else on the forum 40k was actually cool at my (primary) school, so everyone started it. This was during 3ed, so we were surrounded by SM (ultra especially) and DE players. And for some reason, Catachans (!!!)


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

Pandawithissues... said:


> Not to mention the homoeroticism and the paedophilia, what with all the grooming of young initiates.


"And after he made me touch his Crozius Arcanum he...he held me down and put his gene seed in me!"

"Ok, ok. Calm down. Now show me where on the suit of power armor he touched you."


As for the actual discussion, well, I suppose I don't have much to say. I've played Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, and now Salamanders because, well, green is pretty. I'm deep like that. Two out of my four armies have been marines.

I don't see any real reason for Space Marine hate. Yes, it's true, usually the jackasses with pourly painted armies play marines. But that's because the most commonly played army is marines, therefor, most jackasses play marines. Also most people who just started play marines, and they tend to take some time to get used to things.

And it's true, GW favors marines. Yes, sub chapters get full codices when other races get nada. Yes, codices for things like Dark Angels are relatively unnecessary when you have full codices that desperately need to be updated. I just fail to see how any of this equates to hatred of marines or marine players. You can be annoyed at GW all you want but at the end of the day they're a company and if they think that marines are going to sell, guess what we get shoved down our throats? That's right. Hot space marine gene seed. Don't blame the marines. They didn't choose to be this way.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

i'm not a great fan of space marines but i have a large army of them because i wanted an army that i could personalise and convert


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I actually find that SM are the army most GT players design their armies to beat. We wouldnt have the phrase MEQ otherwise. 

I like my marines, but I dont use them as often as I used too. The rise of the assault cannon has not helped even out any disparities between SM and other races.

One question I do have is that if SM are much better than other races, why dont then win every GT? Or at least a majority of them? Surely the cheese mongers there would take them just to win.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

> And after he made me touch his Crozius Arcanum he...he held me down and put his gene seed in me!"
> 
> "Ok, ok. Calm down. Now show me where on the suit of power armor he touched you."





> guess what we get shoved down our throats? That's right. Hot space marine gene seed


This is hilarious.
And also a decently argued post. Well done.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

well there are a lot of armies that are rival too marines AkA Necrons and chaos for starters.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Pandawithissues... said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Max respect to whoever admitted the DA codex was unnecessary. I'll find you and rep you for that. Its good to see someone who can see beyond the spacemarine love orgy.
> 
> Ultramarine players: There is a special hell reserved for you.
> ...


 
As a Space Marine player, I'd normally be inclined to defend those of us who play the good Astartes for "the right reasons" as opposed to playing them because they're cheap monetarily, easy to learn, and relatively easy to paint. 

In my own personal defense, I've always found the Space Marines fascinating from a religious studies standpoint, for lack of a better description. These guys are gods of war, and people tremble in their footsteps, but they're also the most violent religious fanatics out there. Something about that just amuses me, and I'm not sure why. 

I'll admit, I do try to look past the rather unsubtle child molestation references. You have to figure the homoerotica is going on across the board with Imperial armies though... let's face it, the Sisters probably aren't chaste with one another either (although admittedly, that's a little different...) and odds are many of the more "traditionalist" Imperial Guard regiments which only recruit men (Mordians come to mind... f*ckin' brown-shirts) have similar issues. 

The Imperium is a facist state, and I tend to overlook the rampant xenophobia and totalitarianism. It's ultimately just a part of the "horribly grim future" flavoring. The Imperium may be facist, but the aliens out there really aren't any better. The Tau are Leninists, and rather violent and expansionistic ones at that-- it's not too far removed from the Imperium's policies, ultimately. The Eldar are...well, the Eldar. They're pointy-eared bastards. 'Nuff said. Tyranids are intergalactic locusts. It's not clear that they're even sentient. And much like the Eldar, Orks are...Orks. They perhaps fared the best in the adaptation from fantasy to science fiction of the assorted races in the mythos, but they're still Orks, and they're pretty much uncivilized, despite having a working example of Darwinism going on. Oh, and then there's Chaos. It's a tough call as to whether facism or satanism is the better thing to be doing... Horus wasn't wrong about the Imperium, though, to be fair. 

A real counter-argument for playing Space Marines is the relative ease of writing your own fluff that fits seamlessly into the background of Warhammer 40,000. Unlike an Imperial Guard regiment, which is quite standardized most of the time, or any alien army, which again tends to adhere to their race's norms, you actually have a bit of freedom with making your own background for your army when they wear power armour and wield boltguns. If you're more into the story and modelling, which I am, the Astartes actually do have some things to offer.

As a Space Marine player, however, I would be remiss if I didn't address the points that have come up in particular. I agree the Dark Angels codex was unnecessary, as was the Blood Angels suppliment in White Dwarf. The Black Templars definitely didn't need their own Codex-- an Index Astartes article would've sufficed. The Space Wolves are different enough that I could listen to an argument for having a White Dwarf update at some point, but certainly not their own Codex. Generally speaking, with the Traits system, you can field a Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or Black Templars army without breaking a sweat. Now, before I hear cries of "what about my Death Company?"-- they shouldn't even be in the army list to begin with. If Blood Angels fell to the Black Rage as frequently as the number of Death Company Marines that appear in a 2000-point army would imply, the Chapters would cease to function from lack of manpower. If it were up to me, we'd have seen Orks out when Black Templars showed up, and Dark Eldar when they were dicking around with the Dark Angels, just for the record. 

I do agree that there is a special hell for Ultramarines players. The special character models they released, including Sicarius, for the Ultramarines are excellent, don't get me wrong-- but the Space Marines are probably the easiest army to work with when you want to do something really unique and personal, and Ultramarines players just go with the colors on the box. A veteran gamer with years under their belt, that's played Space Marine armies in the past and can do them justice, has the green light for an Ultramarines army, but a new player, or someone just casually picking up Space Marines without appreciating what the Ultramarines really are should be looking at Insignium Astartes and founding their own Chapter, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people using the Games Workshop-created Chapters in the slightest-- in fact, I quite like seeing Imperial Fists and Raven Guard across the table from me-- it'd be a bit bland if the First Founding Chapters weren't around, after all. But I do encourage people to exercise their creativity, within the bounds of the existing fluff, with their Space Marines.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Horus that was the most well-written nonargument I've seen on this thread. +rep to you!
In any case I feel compelled to defend my Guardsmen since you mentioned them. 
Straight off the GW website:


> The Imperial Guard is the largest and most diverse organization the galaxy has ever seen. It contains billions of men from a million different worlds. Half-feral savages march alongside former hive plant workers. Men whose home was blistering desert, tropical jungle, icy steppe or desolate moorland are united under the banner of the Imperium of Man. The entire diversity of the massive Imperium is encapsulated in its ranks.


There are so many different worlds and tens of thousands of regiments available to build and customize as your own. Imperial Guard should be the most diverse army in the game in terms of fluff and modelling too. Take Catachan legs put them on a Cadian body with Elysian heads and arms. There are so many things you can do with the IG. Outside of the Orks, all the alien races are pretty standardized though. I will agree with you there.


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## Khorus (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't hate Vanilla Marines or any other SM army out there. They stay crunchy in my milk.


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

Pandawithissues... said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> To all the space marine spammers on this site, the gauntlet has been laid down. Us space marine haters have made our arguments (quite eloquently and articulately i might add). I'd like to see some real counter arguments. Not just knee jerk reactions of 'No no! Its not true i tell you! Youre all wrong!'
> ...


Too be really honest, I'm not exactly all that keen on the official chapters. When I'm playing space marines, (or any other army for that matter) I like to put my spin on it. Now, I do find some of your comments ironic given that you list guard as your primary army choice. They have many of the same traits as the Space marines in terms of xenophobia, specieism etc. Really if you play imperial forces, you've got to accept your army is more or less based around some of those very same traits. Likewise, while Hitler might take marines as his shock troops, his army would certainly be based upon the Imp guard. (Especially given the German tendancy to big tanks) Thankfully most of the players I know can distinguish fantasy from reality and don't exhibit these traits themselves.

Though, after thinking about it for a moment, most of the armies out there exhibit some form of specieism in one degree or another. The tau are probably the least objectional, but truthfully they'll do what is neccessary for the "greater good" Eldar view most other races as ignorant as best, which is better than the views the dark eldar take. Chaos, well... Nids and Necrons might as well be classified in the same category. They just want to kill everything. Orks just live and well love to fight everything. 

Some good points have been raised, some of which I'd agree with. Most notably the chapter books. Really, the plain jane codex is great as it is, and while there are some issues with it, I think in the end it's flexible enough to allow for some decent diversity. 

As to the painting thing. I think the marines get the rough end of the shaft here. Because there are more marine players there is always going to be a larger number of undesirable elements in that group. That doesn't mean it's exclusively a marine problem. I know of several players who routinely purchase the "army of the moment"* throw a hasty three color paint scheme on it and play them until folks figure out how to beat them. One guy locally has had 6 armies in as many months. None of which were marines, nor were any painted spectacullarly. Most of the rules lawyers and the like locally are playing Chaos and were quite disgruntled when their alpha legion/demonette/demon bomb armies were made unusuable in the new codex. It certainly doesn't mean that I hate all chaos players, nor that I hate chaos in general. 


I guess I'd rather see folks trying to help people get into the game and encouraging them to enjoy the full breadth of the hobby as opposed to bashing their army choice. We all want to enjoy this and have fun, and I think that is the most important part.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I hate most chaos players. Most of them get into chaos for the "bad boy/evil is fun" image. It gets old.


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## Khorus (Jan 7, 2008)

I just play chaos for the diversity of the models and what you can field. I can swap out several squads and use different tactics while keeping the same paint job. Evil, is just a perception. I view what the Emperor did as evil. He did try to cleanse the stars of everything xenos.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Maybe I just spent most of my time playing the older Chaos codex armies. I saw more SM and CSM armies started in the 3 years I actively played 40k than any other army. It was pathetic. A 16 army tourney list would be: Blood Angels, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, White Scars, World Eaters, Vanilla marines, Blood Angels with Inquisitor, Wraithlord Eldar, Biel-tan Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Tau, Imperial Guard, Imperial Guard, one Ork player and one 'nids player. The ridiculous amount of 3+ save armies fielded in a tourney turned me off the game for a long time. I was getting beaten in 2nd turn by these cheesed out min/max lists. Maybe it was my tactics. Who knows? I got tired of playing against armies I knew I couldn't beat.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Space Marines are considered to be a very Nooby army, because everyone starts out with them. Also, being GW's poster boys they are very, very overpowered with the average Space Marine trooper having a 3+ save. So naturally, people at the butt end of the space marines (particually 'nids) are pretty miffed.

Also, there are like a billion 12 year olds with them. Go figure.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

I play Dark Angels, even other Marines tend to hate DA, and it's simply because we are that good. In all seriousness, I've lost to 'Nids, I've lost to Orks, I've been absolutely thrashed By Necrons and I've lost to Guard on many occasions.

At different times, I've also beaten all of those armies (except the Necrons, only played them once and they blew me well and truely to hell), and funnily enough, whenever I win, I get heaps of of smart arse comments about DA and Marines in general. I don't take the game as seriously as some people so I just laugh it off.

I play Dark Angels cause I like them, I guess you play your army for the same reason, so stop bitching about it.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

chrisman 007 said:


> Space Marines are considered to be a very Nooby army, because everyone starts out with them. Also, being GW's poster boys they are very, very overpowered with the average Space Marine trooper having a 3+ save. So naturally, people at the butt end of the space marines (particually 'nids) are pretty miffed.


Space marines are no more over powered than any other army.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I actually sort of think they're the standard of balance in the game, since everything is always weighed against their profile in comparison.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

I play Chaos...Deathguard. The new codex is a boring empty shell. I used to play a pure Deathguard army with no cheese and loved all o the options(wargear, demonic gifts and vet skills) we now have none of that. The four cult Legions have been reduced to troop choices and the other first founding traitors an their rules are gone. Ill admit that chaos had its issues in the last Codex, but all armies have their problems(cheese). If Chaos were so broken then why didnt a Chaos player win all of the grand tournaments and whatnot? Because other cheesed out armies won...Tau and Eldar come to mind. I didnt win every game I played, I won more than I lost ...60%-40% win\loss perhaps. Id say Im an above average player also.Now choas in hollow and boring and you non-Chaos players are still bitching...come on guys give it a rest. Hate the players(cheese masters) not the army.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

It's a few factors, really.

First is popularity. They are the posterchildren of 40K for GW, and since it is cool to hate GW if you are a 40K gmaer as it makes you rebellious, it is subsequently cool to hate Marines. They are also highly popular choices, and it is also cool to hate things that are popular as it makes you rebellious.

Second is sheer number. There are so damn many of them, often close to identical, that you really do get sick of them. On the other hand, this makes well-done armies much more exciting to play.

Third is the illusion that they are somehow overpowered. While it is very unlikely this is true, and even if it is it would be a margin so small as to not really be significant, it is still a strongly-held belief for many people. People will frequently hate that which they believe is unbalaced, 'cheesy', or unfair, and Marines are that to many people, whether or not they should be.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Pandawithissues... said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> I find this comment supremely ironic, considering the fact that you list 3(!) space marine armies and a chaos space marine army (which are only marginly more acceptable) as armies in you sig. Point made? I think so.


I'm not seeing your point here. I'm for the most part the poster child for the non-competitive 40k player. In something like 18 years, I've always come back to Space Marines for the simplicity of their rules, and the clean painting surface to work with. My first army was Eldar actually. 



> Whoever made the points about hatred due to poorly painted models and tendancy to be played by asshats, good point. Well made.


Or new players/ hobbyists. Does that mean all new players are asshats? What about kids or those who simply aren't good painters? That's like saying painters who paint well are all effete snobs, or painting things in red makes it go faster.



> To all the space marine spammers on this site, the gauntlet has been laid down. Us space marine haters have made our arguments (quite eloquently and articulately i might add). I'd like to see some real counter arguments. Not just knee jerk reactions of 'No no! Its not true i tell you! Youre all wrong!'


My own opinion is that a lot of the reasons you're posting : homoeroticism, pedophilia, is entirely an interpretation and a matter of perspective. You can read anything in to anything. Seriously: look at fanfic and slashfic specifically. How many people have their own little interpretations of Harry Potter and his love interests, from Cho Chang, to the Weasleys, to Severus Snape and Dumbledore. Where the hell do they come from? People like to take something and spin it according to their own rose colored glasses.

Some of the stuff you mentioned IS present. The Space Commies/ Tau-iban. The empire is a horrible fascist state, no doubt. That IS ironic.



> Ultramarine players: There is a special hell reserved for you.
> 
> Get some individuality, all of you.


I'm doing Pre-heresy Ultramarines. Ultramarines are pretty much universally reviled by 40k players. Probably because they are seen as vanilla, non-flavored. Part of my choice in playing pre-heresy Ultramarines is directly due to that. I'll be damned if anyone tells me what I can or can't play, and since nobody else will do it, I'll take something bland and make it cool. Hence the pre-heresy bit.

With the pre-heresy, and pre codex astartes I can get a bit more creative with my paint scheme. That and I get to use all the old school bits I've been hording for ages. I get to do some cool kitbashing to make things look a bit older and really make an essentially simple force a bit more diverse.

In defense of Ultramarines and Space Marine Players everywhere, one thing I enjoy, is the organization of the Space Marines. Nice and neat. After so many years in the military, having my company all lined up is kinda cool, squad by squad, neat uniform look.

Space Marines have a very clean appearance, and for new (well...and old alike) it's very nice to have a clean palate to work with. Where some people see vanilla, I see an opportunity to create diversity.

The end result is, people who play space marines do so because they enjoy it and really, if others hate it...who cares? 

Where's the individuality for anyone?
What Eldar are creative? You have a codex and paint schemes. Lots of nice neat paint schemes. Oooh! You can alter it to be like your craftworld! Space Marines do that as well by creating DiY chapters. Tyranids! Dude, it's the same figs, painted a bit different, so where's the big difference? Tau? Necrons? Meh, it's all the same, and all has the essentially same opportunities for individualism or blandness.


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## Vitaeus (Jan 27, 2008)

I personally don't see anything wrong with playing SM even after you've been playing for a while. I like not having to worry about too many complicated perks and powers, but at the same time, having a sturdy, balanced fighting force. And I think that the only reason that the Ultramarines are overplayed is because it's easiest to look on the boxes that the models come in and see good UM paint-job examples. Having said that, I would still rather play Blood Angels any day.


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## Apokra (Jan 28, 2008)

My only problem with seeing so many space marine armies is that space marines are supposed to be Elite, few not 50% + of what I see. I can see why they are used a lot as the army is quite forgiving of tactical mistakes. However how can Space MArines be 'Elite' forces when they outnumber entire races


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't het them, nd i even play chaos necrons and orks.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Pandawithissues... said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Another part of the hatred is the irony of it all. Space marines are the emperors chosen, never seen outside a battlefield, and rarely seen on one, except in the most dire need. However, if you totalled up all the armies from all the games systems from all the players across the world, over 50% would be space marines. There is'nt any mystery when all you see everywhere are space nazis in power armour. Eugenicised indoctrinated pinnacles of the human race, bred to commit genocide on an apocalyptic scale upon anyone even slightly different. If Hitler played 40k they would be his army of choice. Not to mention the homoeroticism and the paedophilia, what with all the grooming of young initiates. Sexism, specieism. Basically, everything our society teaches us to deplore, theyve got it in spades.


i agree a few things you said, but i find this part of your post mildly offensive.
firstly, hitler's campaign of genocide was against other _human beings_; the space marines wipe out capricious, fickle, and universally evil alien races that see humanity in exactly the same light, if not worse.
secondly, i dont understand where the 'homoeroticism' remark comes from; the forces of war have been exclusively male since the very first fighting unit some x-thousand years ago, and the vast majority of them were in all probability straight
dont think im attacking you, though, as i agree with much of what you said otherwise; SM armies DO tend to be the worst painted and played by the youngest members of the hobby, and this fact i take advantage of whenever i can


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The homoeroticism comes from the role of the aspirant and neophyte (and even the scouts, to a greater or lesser degree.) They're...choir boys. If you read the fluff carefully, it's implied that there's some molesting going on.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

O_O
now that i did not know...
my bad dude


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## carmichael666 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think that marines get all the hate partly because they are an idiot-proof army. Any moron with their poorly painted, out-of-the-box, ultramarines. Can luck their way into slaughtering a much better player without any vague semblance of a strategy passing through their skulls.

Being Idiot-proof is also why GW gives the marines so much attention. It seems that the marines (by no fault of their own) are also designed to be a 'fad' army for new players, hence all the spin-off codexes(did i spell that right:scratchhead. Designed to look really cool so they draw in younger players, (with their flashy hollywood backstory) and then get boring after the initial spending spree, that is necessary to get going in the hobby nowadays.
In their defence some of the people that the marines attract(like myself) don't put their 300$ of paint and plastic on a shelf. 

As a Space marine player, (not the ultramarines btw) I am somewhat saddened by all the attention that the marines get from GW. It has made the marines into a bunch of armour suits with little individuality and simple paint schemes. I enjoy having an army with a unique look, but Space Marines are Space Marines and they all start to look the same after a while.

In short, the marines don't deserve all the hate they get, it's not their fault someone else made them suck.


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## Steeldragon (Jan 21, 2008)

carmichael666 said:


> I think that marines get all the hate partly because they are an idiot-proof army. Any moron with their poorly painted, out-of-the-box, ultramarines. Can luck their way into slaughtering a much better player without any vague semblance of a strategy passing through their skulls.
> 
> Being Idiot-proof is also why GW gives the marines so much attention. It seems that the marines (by no fault of their own) are also designed to be a 'fad' army for new players, hence all the spin-off codexes(did i spell that right:scratchhead. Designed to look really cool so they draw in younger players, (with their flashy hollywood backstory) and then get boring after the initial spending spree, that is necessary to get going in the hobby nowadays.
> In their defence some of the people that the marines attract(like myself) don't put their 300$ of paint and plastic on a shelf.


Snipping part of your post there. It does seem some of the imbalances in codexs are being addressed with the Chaos chapters each getting a codex as well. However, I am not sure I can agree with the first statement. I've found that even though the space marines can be fairly straight forward, they are by no means idiot proof, and can be difficult to master. I've found personally that tyranids are pretty darn easy by comparison, and probably one of the most straight forward armies out there.

My .02 cents anyways.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

carmichael666 said:


> I think that marines get all the hate partly because they are an idiot-proof army. Any moron with their poorly painted, out-of-the-box, ultramarines. Can luck their way into slaughtering a much better player without any vague semblance of a strategy passing through their skulls.


Oh, shut up. I'm sick of all this mindless blather about Marines having some sort of super-magical 'easy switch' that means that they are much easier to win with than any other army. It's not true. It may be easier to put a list together because some options are distinctly better than others, but that's the case in nearly every codex these days. They are not easier to win with than any other army. You've heard this from someone else and it has neatly fit your personal view of the game, so in it goes, without any care to think whether or not it's actually the case.

If Marines are so damned powerful, then why aren't they the only army in high-level tournaments, where one must squeeze every last erg of broken out of a codex to make it remotely competitive?

Face it. It's easy to beat Marines once you use the obvious and effective tactics that should take a new player all of three games against to figure out. If you aren't using the tactics, you're either stupid or making a point. If you're making a point then you have no right whatsoever to complain that other armies are more effective than yours. If you are stupid, then it is your fault that you are losing, and you have no right whatsoever to complain. If you are using the tactics and the other person is still winning, then he is a better wargamer than you and has earned that victory, through tactical excellence or consistent exploitation of above-average rolls.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I think the main reason that SM are NOT an uber fighting force as far as effectiveness is that they are the generic standard. All the other armies are min-maxed one direction or another: Bugs=melee/horde, Chaos=pick your flavor, orks=melee/ horde, Tau=shooty, IG=pick your horde. Eldar= generally melee with some interesting shooty bitz to counterbalance, etc. Look at the GT stats and see what force is in the top five consistently...it's not Space Marines that's for sure. Space Marines up against an army built for a purpose (say Bugs) is going to be very hard pressed to win at all. Take your Space Marine army, tool it out for melee, and then fight a bug army and see what happens. Same goes for if you tool it out for shooty against Tau...the Tau are better at it.

Point is that SM are a pretty good jack of all trades army, but are masters of none and facing an army that really IS designed for (whatever...melee, shooting, etc) they are outclassed almost every time.

It's my belief that SM are designed as THE introductory army for GW, and people are supposed to (by design) get in to them because of all the advertising and tons of pics, etc...and then move on to their own preferred flavor of play: Close Combat(bugs), Hordes(orks/ IG), Finesse (eldar or WH/ DH), et cetera.

Oh...and BTW...the homoeroticism is NEVER in anyway inferred...there's no molestation going on there aside from what people assume for themselves. If anything astartes are damn near asexual. People read in to stories all the time and glean what they want from it, but every once in a while folks take what they assume and read in to things as fact, but that doesn't make it so. You know, if people want to assume that neophytes and scouts are simply catchers to the battle brothers, dude, that's on you, no problem, enjoy your fantasy...but it's never been said, even if you've interpreted it that way.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

there boring, simple as


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

space marines are in no way boring, they have more context and style then any other scifi creation ever really. and they vary from chapter to chapter.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

uberschveinen said:


> Oh, shut up. I'm sick of all this mindless blather about Marines having some sort of super-magical 'easy switch' that means that they are much easier to win with than any other army. It's not true. It may be easier to put a list together because some options are distinctly better than others, but that's the case in nearly every codex these days. They are not easier to win with than any other army. You've heard this from someone else and it has neatly fit your personal view of the game, so in it goes, without any care to think whether or not it's actually the case.
> 
> If Marines are so damned powerful, then why aren't they the only army in high-level tournaments, where one must squeeze every last erg of broken out of a codex to make it remotely competitive?
> 
> Face it. It's easy to beat Marines once you use the obvious and effective tactics that should take a new player all of three games against to figure out. If you aren't using the tactics, you're either stupid or making a point. If you're making a point then you have no right whatsoever to complain that other armies are more effective than yours. If you are stupid, then it is your fault that you are losing, and you have no right whatsoever to complain. If you are using the tactics and the other person is still winning, then he is a better wargamer than you and has earned that victory, through tactical excellence or consistent exploitation of above-average rolls.


I damn them to hell for having access to over 9000 ass cannons at a cheap cheap price.(Also drednaughts that listen.) And from what I've seen, they're pretty simple to play, if they play against chaos, bugs, or orks, stand back and shoot. If they play tau, or guard, charge. 
While I don't think they're as broken as tau(they'll skim the ever living GOD out of you.) they have the options to do whatever the player needs doing. "Tactically Flexible" seems to be the mantra. 

As for tournaments, the largest one I could think of to take a large sampling pool from was the Medusa V campeign...in which space marines(And imperial guard) Beat the crap out of the other forces. Or could that be GW doing rediculous things?


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

When there's a tournament with 31 players, 7 of which aren't SM (24 of which are), I think it certainly says that they're the most popular by a long shot.Their niche is being jack of all trades, and they do that well. Every army can see the SM doing something that their army can't. Combined with their popularity, that makes them disliked by the small % who don't play SM. IMO, chaos are almost as bad in terms of popularity.


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## Vitaeus (Jan 27, 2008)

The Space Marines, as many before me have said, are the jacks-of-all-trades, which I think is perfectly fine. The may be good at everything (almost), but you can also see that they aren't _stellar_ in any particular field. I personally see the Orks and Tau to be the most limited in terms of tactic choices, though the Tau _do_ have the advantage of Kroot(for melee) and of being broken to hell as far as vehicles go. Orks can, well, smash stuff. And smash stuff with squiggoths. 
I don't think that people should be labeled as simple and unimaginative just because they like playing as the Space Marines. If we want to play as a straightforward, hands-on army with a lot of leeway for mistakes, *let us*. :fuck:


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Vitaeus said:


> The Space Marines, as many before me have said, are the jacks-of-all-trades, which I think is perfectly fine. The may be good at everything (almost), but you can also see that they aren't _stellar_ in any particular field. I personally see the Orks and Tau to be the most limited in terms of tactic choices, though the Tau _do_ have the advantage of Kroot(for melee) and of being broken to hell as far as vehicles go. Orks can, well, smash stuff. And smash stuff with squiggoths.
> I don't think that people should be labeled as simple and unimaginative just because they like playing as the Space Marines. If we want to play as a straightforward, hands-on army with a lot of leeway for mistakes, *let us*. :fuck:


Pretty much. Thing is, haters only matter if you let them. Personally, I don't care what anyone else plays as long as they love what they play: orks, Bugs, Eldar...whatever...enjoy the hobby! My own pet peeve is the folks who play army X because it is mathematically superior, and really give a shit less about the figures, or the fluff...but that's a rant for another day (or another thread).


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Medusa V wasn't a tournament. It was a bunch of people sending in results from games they may or may not have actually played. Space Marines dominance came not from any notional superiority in battle but their incredibly large numbers.

Your marine-heavy tournament was almost certainly some low-order thing. I mean the most competitive stuff, where people can't just bring along any old army.


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## Vitaeus (Jan 27, 2008)

Elchimpster said:


> Pretty much. Thing is, haters only matter if you let them. Personally, I don't care what anyone else plays as long as they love what they play: orks, Bugs, Eldar...whatever...enjoy the hobby! My own pet peeve is the folks who play army X because it is mathematically superior, and really give a shit less about the figures, or the fluff...but that's a rant for another day (or another thread).


Aye. I can't stand people who are only in it for winning. Ya gotta have fun, too.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Engelus said:


> space marines are in no way boring, they have more context and style then any other scifi creation ever really. and they vary from chapter to chapter.


no there boring, guardsmen have style, Tau have style, marines have.....umm.......nothing really


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> no there boring, guardsmen have style, Tau have style, marines have.....umm.......nothing really


Disregard Stella...no need to feed the troll.
Back in your cage Stella!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Elchimpster said:


> Disregard Stella...no need to feed the troll.
> Back in your cage Stella!


its not trolling, its my opinion, Marines are Boring as hell, there about as boring as watching a Darts game


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

They're only boring if you play with or against boring marine armies. They can be made a hell of a lo more interesting than Tyranids, Necrons or Orks, that;s for sure.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

It's all a matter of opinion


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

dont hate space marines. they are going to protect humanity in the 41st millenium


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Brother Wulox said:


> dont hate space marines. they are going to protect humanity in the 41st millenium


no, thats what Guardsmen do, marines are like the Yanks, they come in late and claim all the glory, and then everyone remembers what THEY did, and nobody else
:biggrin:


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> no, thats what Guardsmen do, marines are like the Yanks, they come in late and claim all the glory, and then everyone remembers what THEY did, and nobody else
> :biggrin:


Amen to that! I agree with you. In a battle, with my guardsmen (2 squads) my loyal men owned about 20 assorted nids (termagaunts and genestealers) and a tyranid warrior. my mate with Ksarkin and leman russes zapped a thosand sons squad, a lord, and blew apart a defiler. Yet everyone went on and on about how their space marines had fought genestealers, and how their space marine lascannoned a Dark Eldar skimmer. SM this, SM that, yet no mention of our guardsmen sacrifice.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

"We don't promise you a rose garden." As the recruitment poster says.


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