# IG Hydra Flak Tank count? 2 or 3?



## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

As the title says I am looking for a good anti- AV11/12. I face a lot of mech in Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras and those Eldar annoying AV12 skimmers. Looking through our Dex Hydras are probably THE transport killers and I am ordering some tonight from FW 

So the question is how many should I run? 1, 2 or 3 in a squad? Why? I'm thinking 2 since 8 shots should be able to down a transport a turn but 3 would be a lot more reliable at killing transports especially the AV12 ones.

Thoughts?


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## cool_conoly (Mar 29, 2008)

Thoughts: Dont Get Them. 
Reason: For the same amount of points you can field 3 AC heavy weapon teams, that put out more shots, will generaly survive longer, and most IMPORTANTLY they do not take up a HS slot which is much much better used on a Leman Russ or Artillery Battery


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## Daniel Harper (May 25, 2008)

Ermmm I've never used Hydras as they aren't in plastic but..
The idea is cool, they look cool and I've always heard good things.
I mean yes a HWS of autocannons can put out more shots but hydras also get heavy bolters and if played correctly could be nasty to your opponent.


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Daniel Harper said:


> Ermmm I've never used Hydras as they aren't in plastic but..
> The idea is cool, they look cool and I've always heard good things.
> I mean yes a HWS of autocannons can put out more shots but hydras also get heavy bolters and if played correctly could be nasty to your opponent.


Pretty much this. I want to stay all Mech to nullify my opponents anti-infantry fire. Plus I have heard so much good about hydras. 72" range is so much win for me.

What is the optimum amount of Hydras to take per squad?


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

I'd say 2, after that you get diminishing returns, 2 hydras should get you (on average) about 2 penetrating hits and 2 glancing hits against a rhino, plus 2 in a squadron means its easier to get coversaves as only one has to get cover (50% or more) for both to...


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

ItsPug said:


> I'd say 2, after that you get diminishing returns, 2 hydras should get you (on average) about 2 penetrating hits and 2 glancing hits against a rhino, plus 2 in a squadron means its easier to get coversaves as only one has to get cover (50% or more) for both to...


This!

I have 4 Hydras and run 2 of 2 sometimes..worlks well. Dn't forget tha they also make good anti-infantry killers once you run out of AV targets.

AC HWT's may in fact be just as good (well better in some respects), but they fit Infantry-heavy lists, whereas Hydras are for Mech lists...simple choice really.

Isn't there a rumour that we get a plastic Hydra kit later this year sometime?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

cool_conoly said:


> For the same amount of points you can field 3 AC heavy weapon teams, that put out more shots


Put out 2 more shots, and sacrifice twin linked. And the ignoring cover-from-turboing rule.



cool_conoly said:


> will generaly survive longer


How? They can be hurt by weaponry with S6 or less. They get instant killed by S6 or more. 3 Autocannon hits on a heavy weapon team will probably kill it. 3 Autocannon hits averages a single glance or penetrating hit on a Hydra, which may or may not even cause permanent damage.



cool_conoly said:


> and most IMPORTANTLY they do not take up a HS slot which is much much better used on a Leman Russ or Artillery Battery


If you don't use the big-points-sink-can-of-fail known as the Leman Russ then you easily have a spare HS slot for a pair of Hydra. Leaves room for a pair of Manticores and whatever other artillery you feel like using.


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## HiveMinder (Feb 8, 2010)

Actually, there's no difference between the Flak tank and AC HWS as far as inflicting damage is concerned.

The Hydra gets 4 TL shots at BS 3, averaging 3 hits per tank. The HWS gets 6 shots at 3 BS, averaging 3 hits per squad. So, given that you want to stay mech and deny enemy their small arms fire, go with the tanks.

And as far as the number is concerned, I'd take 3. As I've mentioned, you're going to get 3 hits per tank. Against AV 11, you have a 1/3 chance to pen, so you'll average 1 pen per tank. Considering each pen only has a 1/3 chance to destroy the vehicle, I'd take 3 tanks, giving you 3 pens, and (hopefully) ensuring 1 destroyed result per turn.

Against AV 12, this is halved, so you'll only get 1 destroyed result every 2 turns.


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Looking at my regular list I run (all-comers) I actually lack in range anti-transport weaponry. My list usually consists of:

1 CCS in Chimeras w/ Plasmaguns
3-4 Vets in Chimeras 1 with Plasmaguns and rest with Meltas
2 Vendettas
0-2 Manticores
0-2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
0-1 LR Executioner


As you can see I do have a lot of long range firepower that I guess CAN be used at anti-transport AV11/12 but I would say almost all of my weapons are better used against something else. My Meltas are 12" and 6" effectively. My Blasts are all better used against MEQ or Terminators or Hordes. Only my Vendettas are long range anti-low AV transport poppers but even then those shots are better used against Terminators or AV13/14....

So I really have no weapons "designated" to actually target AV11/12 effectively.


Maybe I should get 3 Hydras then?


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Yea I sure like them, but only in 2's usually for reasons already given.

That is a very nice list...by 0-2 Manticores I assume you mean you field 2 seperately, because they can't be squadroned.

Don't forget that a CHimera's Multi-laser is useful against transports (AV10 sides)...just saying:wink:


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Haha thanks HOBO. Ya I split Manticores up. It was mostly just to say around what models I have to be able to field. 

Ya the Multi-laser can work pretty good vs certain things especially AV10 transports, agree there. I'm still leaning on MAYBE going 3. Because after looking at my list I have pretty much no anti-av10-12. Most everything is better off used vs AV13/14. Seems kinda wasted to use my Lascannon Vendettas on AV11 Rhinos lol..


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Fair enough. Once (if) the plastic Hydra comes out I'll no doubt buy a couple, so I'll have enough for 2 squadrons of 3 as well.

Vendettas wasted on shooting Rhinos etc depends on what units inside as well...not just the vehicle itself:wink:


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

2 Per squad. 1 Is not enough and 3 takes up too much room and can draw too much attention.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm about to crash so I didn't read this (I really gotta stop posting when I'm this exhausted), but there was a discussion of sorts about this in this thread. Basically there was a comparison between Hydras and Heavy Weapon Teams done and I added some thoughts as well. Hopefully it'll help.

As for the number of Hydras in a unit, I'd go with two, maybe one if I couldn't get a second one, didn't want the second or something, but never more than two. As someone else said, Hydras suffer from diminishing returns after the second model per unit.


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## cool_conoly (Mar 29, 2008)

In Small Games up to 1200pt Hydras may be an equal choice. Once you start getting into a larger game though there are far far better Heavy Support choices, and you really should be filling all there slots.

I guess if your running a mech army the Hydra is a better CHOICE, not the better unit.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

It also depends on if your opponent counts on obscured saves due to fast moving to protect his armor assets. If that is the case, then using Hydras is far superior. I also agree 2 is the optimal number.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Go with two to a unit. Go check out the 80:20 rule for fractally goodness (basically, past a certain effectiveness the cost to effect rate goes into the shitter).

But! Take another squad.

Don't use autocannons to kill vehicles. Use them to *suppress* vehicles. You're better off getting on result on a vehicle and moving on, with the partial exception of transports. Spreading your results rolls around reduced redundant shakes/stuns and increases the effectiveness of your guns. Now you're keeping a large swathe of the other side's vehicles from shooting, and you're going to get just as many "destroyed", etc. results as you would have before.

Other than my lecture... yeah, Hydras are awesome. A decent AV is MUCH better than t3 w2, even with cover, in any army that's rocking tons of chimmie hulls already. Plus extra shots versus twinlinking is, as BS3, something to be really mindful of.


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## leinad-yor (Apr 14, 2008)

Just as a thought have you ever tried to take extra chimeras, like those bought for the squads you put in the vendettas, and then placing an autocannon squad in each on the first turn. You lose one turn of shooting but gain a chimera pillbox that can handle infantry and light transports while sitting on or near an objective.

Lein


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Why yes I do good sir. 

Actually my list right now for 2k has 2x of those. PCS with Flamers in a Valk with MPs and 2x IS with Chimeras and ea. squad of IS has a AC


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## ElCheezus (Jan 19, 2011)

HiveMinder said:


> Actually, there's no difference between the Flak tank and AC HWS as far as inflicting damage is concerned.
> 
> The Hydra gets 4 TL shots at BS 3, averaging 3 hits per tank. The HWS gets 6 shots at 3 BS, averaging 3 hits per squad. So, given that you want to stay mech and deny enemy their small arms fire, go with the tanks.
> 
> ...


In the previous discussion (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55893) I show why averages is the wrong approach for calculating shooting against vehicles.

At points values less than 2000, I usually don't squadron vehicles at all. The only exception is Hydras, and I'll take them in pairs if necessary. There's only one time I've ever run that many heavy slots, though, and it was 6 Hydras at 1500. More than two, though, and you've got 225 points invest in what is essentially one target. Hiding them gets a lot harder without severly redusing your firing lanes. With two you can pop smoke and get cover for both.

Of course, if your heavy slots are full and you feel you need another Hydra, then having a squad of 3 is better than not having one at all. At that point, though, it might be better to go with a HWS if you already have platoons. That gets to depending on your army, though. You know, like all discussions of one unit vs another.


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