# Maelstrom Games is now officially dead



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

It's now confirmed that Maelstrom Games is dead. If you have outstanding orders with them dont expect to receive them as we were pretty much all scammed out of our money.
If you have not received something you've ordered from Maelstrom do a Paypal chargeback claim NOW!! or a Credit Card chargeback NOW!!
It's too late for me to do so so I've lost my money and will probably not get it back, if you are in the same situation as me you should sign this petition.
SIGN ME

Source


Maelstrom Games said:


> OFFICIAL NOTICE
> 
> Maelstrom Games Ltd. has ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point over the next few months.
> 
> ...


Source


Wayland Games said:


> 09 Nov 2012
> 
> All in the Gaming Community,
> 
> ...


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

QWERTY?

Alice


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> asdfsdfasdfasdfasdf


i think you should stay clear of lunch time visits to the local pub if this is what you post when you get back to work :grin:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It's always good to steer clear of them if you want to receive anything in any kind of reasonable time frame.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

I just received my Banelegions Krull in under a week of ordering, I think they are only going to sell good that are now in stock to stop the internet complaints.

My friend had to cancel some of his order due to lack of stock and slow resupplies.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

Can someone explain this to me, or is the sort of thing your just _supposed_ to get


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm just as lost, other than slug-in-a-coma delivery times, which I thought everyone knew about already I'm not getting the


> asdfsdfasdfasdfasdf


 thing, is there something I'm missing?


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## 18827 (Oct 23, 2009)

I shall show this thread to the wife, maybe you have to be a madcrazycow to get it. :laugh:


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## admin (Oct 9, 2007)

I heard they're insolvent and going down the shitter.

Just what I heard a rumour... not that I know anything concrete. Best of luck to them - they're based about 3 miles from my house so would be sad to see them go.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

that is similar to what i heard as well. seems they are trying to clear stock and fill all of their orders though. couple people i know have gotten some great deals off of them.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Yup. They supposedly ran a sale on most of their "in stock" items in order to clear enough cash to buy kit for the backlog of online orders they keep falling behind with.

Something to do with their previous policy of selling stuff they didn't have causing them to mis-manage finances and get into a shitload of trouble.

Thats a paraphrase of rumours I'd heard - but close to the truth if not exactly accurate, I believe.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

admin said:


> I heard they're insolvent and going down the shitter.
> 
> Just what I heard a rumour... not that I know anything concrete. Best of luck to them - they're based about 3 miles from my house so would be sad to see them go.


I have been told they are more or less fucked from a few brits i know..........Shame i used to order from them before Canadian customs turned into total dicks.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Every experience on ordering from Maelstrom Games has been pretty shitty, they're slower than Wayland which takes some doing. They also have a shitty design for their website. It was only going to be a matter of time before their rep caught up with them.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Scuttlebutt is indeed that they are going down the pan...however I understand they have formed a couple of different companies for the more solvant enterprises - Bane Legions for example, but will inevitably fold the main business.

Shame, I like the venue - although choosing a grade 2 listed building was probably not the cleverest move - but their mail order service is dire so I have not used them for some time (nor Wayland which also suffers from this). Always go with the small guy for mail order - they get the stuff out the door asap!


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

http://www.gamerznexus.co.uk/

these guys are really good in my experience. When i ordered something that was out of stock they called me about 10 minutes after i placed the order [which suprised me] and then asked if i wanted to cancel or was willing to wait. i then got the stuff within a week of that so definately cant complain


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

jigplums said:


> http://www.gamerznexus.co.uk/
> 
> these guys are really good in my experience. When i ordered something that was out of stock they called me about 10 minutes after i placed the order [which suprised me] and then asked if i wanted to cancel or was willing to wait. i then got the stuff within a week of that so definately cant complain


would be better if they had a live stock level so you dont have to guess, maelstrom have that facility which is why i have never had a problem with them, i can see if they have it , if they have i can order it and it arrives within 48 hours, if its not in stock i try elsewhere.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't know if loss of international sales hurt them... Me and my gaming group used to order a lot from them. Always good service. Now, well, we don't order GW stuff anymore **Insert regular comments about stupid ROW policies, gouging Canadian prices, yaddi-yadda**


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

I wonder how much of GW's policy to stop them from shipping oversea's has to do with this. I used to order 90% of my stuff from maelstrom and I never had a problem, until GW put a stop to that.


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## Vhalyar (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm still fighting for reimbursement after two months and a half of utter silence concerning an order. They stopped replying to emails and the phone line is permanently busy/no one picks up.

I wish I had paid with my credit card rather than PayPal. At least then I could contest the charge and let them get chewed some more by MasterCard rather than wait for PP's investigation.

I found better alternatives now though, which is nice.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

From the Malifaux forum:

"Maelstrom won't be getting any more Malifaux from us as he's been cut off due to his massive debt, which has now been sold via a debt purchase company who will be pursuing the debt and legal action.

MG is running his final sales (several of them) and there is nothing much left. No further stock will be sent from us."


Even if they do set themselves back up again, I imagine a lot of suppliers wont touch them again, and rightly so.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm having allot of trouble accessing the site, having to go through a proxy website to even see it and I can't edit treads or anything like this, hardly even post.

When I made this thread I was having allot of trouble so I just made a thread called ajsdfadsjfadsfsadf with adfadsjfasdhfa as the contents. It posted, I could edit the thread title but when I tried to edit the first post I lost connection to the server.
I thought site was down again but found out yesterday it's up but I can't connect for some reason.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm having allot of trouble accessing the site, having to go through a proxy website to even see it and I can't edit treads or anything like this, hardly even post.
> 
> When I made this thread I was having allot of trouble so I just made a thread called ajsdfadsjfadsfsadf with adfadsjfasdhfa as the contents. It posted, I could edit the thread title but when I tried to edit the first post I lost connection to the server.
> I thought site was down again but found out yesterday it's up but I can't connect for some reason.


That explains the first post then  How odd....


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

According to North Star Figures - The Maelstrom is now closed....no other info 
other than that at this point.


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## Vhalyar (Mar 19, 2010)

They seem to have moved the site to this url: http://www.eye-of-the-storm.co.uk/


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Finally managed to post my first post. Info is now a bit out of date.

Maelstrom is dead


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Here's a good article (from the facebook link MCC posted) from BoW for any of you that may have paid Maelstrom and not received merchandise by the time they closed down:

http://www.beastsofwar.com/bow-article/when-hobby-store-goes-bankrupt/


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

https://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/

Confirmed here...


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Wayland Games Statement

And Wayland Games very 'Alpha Legion' role and response to all this.
Not sure whether i'm niave enough to buy the whole 'greater good' angle, but it is well spun.

MadCowCrazy: Fixed the broken link


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

If, like me, you have outstanding orders with Maelstrom you should sign this petition.
If it leads to anything I can not say but it's a start. I doubt I'll see my money or my miniatures.


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

http://www.eye-of-the-storm.co.uk/

Hmmm, that website layout looks familiar, wonder where i've seen it before...


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

_"Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of �500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course."_

Directly from the Maelstorm Website - Wayland caused their main competitors the to fall, and hence why you guys have not got all your orders.

When Richie appears on this thread - ask him for you Stuff....


Underhanded action, sadly legal. 

https://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Llamafish said:


> Underhanded action, sadly legal.


Have you read the press release from Wayland linked above? 

Underhand, yes, possibly. But in a small market where They were causing suppliers problems affecting everything else. Wayland previously offered twice to buy them out *with debts*. Could quite easily have been necessary for the survival of many other businesses.

We can't ever know the full story, but at the end of the day, it's not something to get overly upset about. These things happen. Claim on your card/Paypal, if you can. If not, lodge your claim with the administrators and hope you get at least something back. It's the risks of remote buying.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

I dont think it is quiet true what wayland saying - IMO his trying to make out his protecting an industry, sooo happen eliminate a rival too



Llamafish said:


> Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.


If he was protecting the industry he would have taken them up on the repayment scheme accepted by others before hand. 

Now we have less option to shop from, and worse - maybe lose more games developments and places to play war games.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Obviously, you need to take both with a pinch of salt. There is a bit of Wayland taking an opportunity to take them out. At the same time, I've seen businesses like that leech suppliers, and tell customers it's the suppliers fault etc etc.

Neither of those releases can be out and out wrong. But neither of them tell the whole truth, either.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

One thing is clear - Maelstrom were deliberatley taking orders and selling in the knowledge they were folding - thoroughly despicable and probably criminal if anyone were interested in looking close enough. They have dumped their debts, abandoned customers with orders outstanding and set up the next day trading as normal.
Only a mug would buy from the again and i'm hoping they fail to stay afloat any further. 
I for one will not be attending any events held at the 'Eye', but with TTN taking off, that should not be a problem. I've not bought mail order from them in a while as they are shite so no change their at least....Real shame since I liked the venue and the guys were great hosts - but now they have shown their true cuntish colours so balls to them.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Llamafish said:


> _"Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of �500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.
> 
> Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.
> 
> ...



Why would you accept what Maelstrom have said at face value?

The scale of the debts were significant and growing whilst assets that should have been liquidated to settle all creditors and customer orders were moved out of reach into other companies.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

The thing I see from face value is people prior to you forcing them to liquidate had a chance to get their stuff, now thanks to your actions there is no chance. 
You said you sent 2 emails over the period a couple months, this is bull shit. Not saying you're lying, you probably did but if you were really interested there is much ways of contacting people. 

After you bought the debt, why not force them to sell to you versus liquidating? Because the way I see it is you just fucked over the consumers to save suppliers and your ass. If suppliers are stupid enough to extend that much credit out they they deserve what they get. 

Until I see more information I am going to think this deal was dirty and you fucked all the consumer who bought from MG. 

Before anyone chips on about MG taking orders without stock, yeah that's bad but at that point you had a chance to get your orders, but now that Wayland forced them into liquidating all assets which you can assume Wayland will buy up for pennies on the dollar. Way I see it the only winner here is Rich.


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

For more information, there is always a thread over at Dakkadakka.... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/870/464643.page

Also, Simple Miniature Games has also released a statement concerning this matter (please excuse a second link): http://troubleatthemill.blogspot.nl/2012/11/more-on-maelstrom-statement-from-simple.html

Though I have to admit that I find it quite interesting how Maelstrom had a debt of some 500.000 pounds before they folded. Also quite interesting how, in the months leading up to that, the companies' assets were shifted out of Maelstrom into other companies owned by the same people/person.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Think you are wide of the mark.

The level of debt was and is massive and was growing. The longer it went on the more damage was being done and the higher the debts. This was going to happen anyway, we put pressure on to make it happen in a way that gave all creditors a chance of recovering their losses. If it went on longer even more people would be out of pocket.

What would you think if we had taken no action but knew thousands more customers would pay money and not receive their goods?

I had called Maelstrom in the past to discuss, the owner of Maelstrom refused to speak to me. I even visited them a while ago and the owner of Maelstrom would not come out of his office to speak to me. Not to worry it was only a 300 odd mile round trip. Please do not call the sending of emails Bs either, it is true and they were ignored. I can state though if we had entered into discussion then we would have pulled out as any diligence process would have discovered the more significant debts.







djinn24 said:


> The thing I see from face value is people prior to you forcing them to liquidate had a chance to get their stuff, now thanks to your actions there is no chance.
> You said you sent 2 emails over the period a couple months, this is bull shit. Not saying you're lying, you probably did but if you were really interested there is much ways of contacting people.
> 
> After you bought the debt, why not force them to sell to you versus liquidating? Because the way I see it is you just fucked over the consumers to save suppliers and your ass. If suppliers are stupid enough to extend that much credit out they they deserve what they get.
> ...


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

rich1231 said:


> I had called Maelstrom in the past to discuss, the owner of Maelstrom refused to speak to me. I even visited them a while ago and the owner of Maelstrom would not come out of his office to speak to me. Not to worry it was only a 300 odd mile round trip. Please do not call the sending of emails Bs either, it is true and they were ignored. I can state though if we had entered into discussion then we would have pulled out as any diligence process would have discovered the more significant debts.


Why didn't you say that in the original statement? It just seems to be BS now.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Sending 2 emails as your release states is BS, my opinion is based off the two original memos, at face value. As more information cones forward, my opinion will probably change. 

Any plans on help the customers who got bent over out, be a real super hero of this situation? That happens I will sing your praises to every person I know. Even order some nonGW stuff off you.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

The statement from Simple Miniatures Games found via this link (http://troubleatthemill.blogspot.nl/2012/11/more-on-maelstrom-statement-from-simple.html) is the most worrying thing about the situation imo.

Seems that what has been done by Wayland wasn't soon enough for most suppliers or customers tbh, siphoning off funds whilst going bust is very sneeky. 



> You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.


On a more Modly note, if this thread just turns into a slagging match it will probably disappear, try and keep it polite and factual and it might survive to be a thread that is useful and informative for those that are caught up in the problems waiting for payments or orders and such.


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## pb97613 (Apr 2, 2012)

To those of us who have outstanding orders, the chances of you getting either your money now is very very slim. When a company goes into liquidation, the receivers (the people who are now running the company) draw up a list of all the company's creditors (people who are owed things by the business). They then draw up a pecking order of importance of those creditors. Unfortunately, customers with outstanding orders sit near the bottom of that list. The receivers then sell all the assets of the business and will then aim to settle the debts of the business. In a liquidation process there is very rarely enough assets to covers all debts.....


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Can I get the tl;dr version?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

what i dont get is why wayland got involved at all? maelstrom was clearly in debt, any of its creditors could have done the same as wayland and petitioned to wind maelstrom up? so why did wayland have to do it and why get involved? im not buying the whole "we did it for the industry thing", after all simple miniatures is a wholesale and distributor, if they allowed Maelstrom to get into that amount of debt they really should have been prepared to pull the trigger themselves. Most companies offer 30 day trade terms for credit(you clear your debt after you have had the stock for 30 days) if you cant pay after 30 days they might extend for another 30 but after that credit should be refused and no more stock offered until the debt is paid, if simple miniatures had given maelstrom a 100k credit limit while not getting paid then they are part of the problem.It also begs the question why they havent insured against bad debts if they are allowing such high levels of credit?
Plus by selling this massive debt they have given a clear indicator to other stockists that its ok to run up massive debts and not pay, i doubt wayland are going to buy up debts of simple miniatures everytime a large indie is allowed to overstretch and get deep into debt.

I also dont like to hear that a UK distributor of wargames products is so deeply in bed with arguably the largest "indie" mail order retailer for me that starts alarm bells ringing, clearly wayland bought the debt to kill off maelstrom (which under the circumstances maelstrom were possibly dead in the water already), but considering that this happens to be a retailer buying another retailers debt from a distributor it smells much more fishy when you look at what simple miniatures supplies.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Any plans on help the customers who got bent over out, be a real super hero of this situation? That happens I will sing your praises to every person I know. Even order some nonGW stuff off you.











I suggested this idea over at Dakka but no one seemed to like this idea.
Wayland has no obligation to do anything like this and even if they wanted to it'd be pretty much impossible as Maelstrom probably wouldn't hand over their outstanding orders database and if they did that would probably be illegal to do under data security laws.

Despite all this, if they did try to do this I'm 100% sure they would come out as the saviours they claim themselves to be. Right now it's just business and Wayland saw the chance to perhaps buy Maelstrom, including the banelegions and lords range and everything else Maelstrom owns, but Rob Lane refused as Wayland probably offered too low a bid (perhaps Wayland didn't know how much debt Maelstrom had acquired) or Rob Lane was too stubborn/stupid to accept the offer. Since Wayland couldn't acquire Maelstrom they did the second best thing and that was buy the debt and demand it so Maelstrom would end up getting liquidated.

Maelstrom didn't want to hand any assets over to Wayland once liquidation starts which is why they had the 80% off sales and honoured them to get rid of as many physical assets as possible, so there would be as little as possible for Wayland to claim once liquidation starts.

I'm sure Rob Lane transferred as much money etc as possible over to Mierce, EotS and Maunsfeld Gaming during the month of October so Wayland would get nothing.


1s place Winner: Wayland Games for getting rid of one of their competitors, perhaps their largest competitor when it comes to online sales.
Rob Lanes reputation is ruined and even with the 3 (if not more) new companies it will take a long time for previous customers to return if they ever do so.

2nd place Winner: Maelstrom Games for transferring all assets over to EotS, Mierce and Maunsfeld. All debt owned by Maelstrom will now go unpaid as that's the way a Limited company works (as far as I know). All remaining assets will go to pay the debt but if there is nothing left then they are not required to pay it.

Losers: People who never received their miniatures or money back, they will get nothing at all. They will be more aware of their rights regarding chargebacks and will probably use it more freely which in turn might hurt legitimate businesses. I pre-ordered the new Kurganova sisters from Ragingheroes for instance, it took over 3 months before I got the minis due to delays. I received them last week but with this whole Maelstrom debacle I now know the limits of paypal and would have demanded my money back after 30 days.

I'm sure people will be allot more careful with pre orders, I know I will be. I've bought from Wayland allot of times, heck I did so last week. Only times I use them is when they offer free shipping as they are the cheapest option when they do so. Now with Maelstrom gone perhaps they can offer free shipping more often.

I will demand my money back from retailers after 30 days from now on, probably make the same order once I get my money back. Will be more paperwork for retailers but it will protect me from something like this happening again. I only got scammed out of £105 for 2 DV boxes but that is still miniatures money I will never see again.

You learn as you live I suppose, but it still stings. If I lived close by I'd go to EotS and demand my money or miniatures, if they refused I'd probably return at night and throw a brick through a window. The cost to replace the window would probably be similar or more than the cost of the miniatures. I guess the place is insured and that would cover it but it'd make me feel a tiny bit better...


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## pb97613 (Apr 2, 2012)

When a company goes into receivership and then liquidation they hand over control of the business to someone else who is then seeking to get as much money as possible for all the creditors. With Wayland buying Maelstroms debt, this means that Wayland now owes money to those companies and lenders. It doesn't concern me as to why the did this, I'm just highlighting the accounting that goes behind liquidation for others who aren't aware. There has been more lost here other than orders that will not be delivered. I feel for the people who no longer have a job (who know's if they have outstanding pay or other entitlements to be settled), the suppliers who have been waiting to get paid for stock they have already supplied and the production based upon sales estimates form their retailers, the other businesses that Maelstrom was a key client of that no longer has that revenue coming in....etc.... There are many people who are severely impacted by a closing of a business in this manner. Depending upon how the business has been structured, the owners could potentially be pursued for outstanding liabilities that the business had. It's not really a case that a company just goes into liquidation and walks away clean and clear. Liquidation is a rather messy process for all involved. At the end of the day, this is a situation where no-one wins. Just remember that this impacts on many more people than just people who placed an order that won't arrive.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

As far as I know Wayland didn't buy all of Maelstrom debt, only the part owed to SMG. Why would Wayland owe money to anyone when it's Maelstrom who does? Wayland didn't buy Maelstrom and even if they did they wouldn't be responsible for any debt owed as that's how a Limited company works.

It'd be rather retarded if Wayland would be responsible to pay any debt, who would they be responsible to anyway? Themselves as the only debt they have is debt owed by Maelstrom to them.

They way you describe it would be if I owed you 100k and you sold the debt to your brother, now your brother would have to pay that debt as I'd just declare bankruptcy as a limited company. So this would mean your brother would have to pay you the 100K even though you sold him that debt. I think you got it all mixed up on how it works.


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## pb97613 (Apr 2, 2012)

Corporate debt can be bought and sold in a variety of ways. However wayland will need to fun the amount that they have bought the debt for. This can be done where wayland gives a sum of cash to the company's that are owed the money and will pursue the original borrower for funds. Company's can also transfer the ownership of the debt so that the new buyer doesn't need to outlay the money upfront for the purchase. Without seeing the detail behind the options that have been exercised (and the general public doesn't need to see it), you don't know how the debt had been sold. Further if we take the instance where wayland just paid a sum in cash for the debt so they can collect it, they are either paying interest on that borrowed money or are seeking to get a better investment return out of the collection of those funds than they would of from other utilisation of thee available funds.


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## pb97613 (Apr 2, 2012)

I don't really see much point in arguing theoretical specifics of wayland buying Maelstroms debt off another business. I just wanted to give people a better understanding of what occurs during liquidation of a company and where they now stand with Maelstrom as potential creditors.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

There is a case that Mealstrom may be in trouble with regards to transfering assets out of the company. 

You can be personally liable for company debts as a compnay director if successful wrongful trading proceedings are started after a company has gone into insolvent liquidation. The liquidator may apply to court for an order that you should contribute to the company's assets. This could happen if, before the winding up began, you knew - or should have concluded - there was no reasonable prospect of avoiding insolvent liquidation, and you failed to take every step to minimise the potential loss to the company's creditors. 

Obviously we don't know all the details so its not as if we know if this may happen. I have personally never bought anything from Maelstrom so Im totally unaffected by this.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

One way or another, this is bad business, and it's the customers who are getting farked over. Hopefully the whole story gets shaken out in time, and we can see what actually happened.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Pb, that is the largest amount of BS I have seen I in a while. Unless UK business law are completely ass backward from the US then Wayland owes the rest of MG creditors dick. 

Wayland bought the debt from someone, called the note, forced them into liquidation. Now Wayland and the rest of the companies who are owed money by MG get to fight over the pennies that will be left out er once the company is liquidated.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> Pb, that is the largest amount of BS I have seen I in a while. Unless UK business law are completely ass backward from the US then Wayland owes the rest of MG creditors dick.
> 
> Wayland bought the debt from someone, called the note, forced them into liquidation. Now Wayland and the rest of the companies who are owed money by MG get to fight over the pennies that will be left out er once the company is liquidated.



This is correct, that's how it works in the UK too.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Pb, that is the largest amount of BS I have seen I in a while. Unless UK business law are completely ass backward from the US then Wayland owes the rest of MG creditors dick.
> 
> Wayland bought the debt from someone, called the note, forced them into liquidation. Now Wayland and the rest of the companies who are owed money by MG get to fight over the pennies that will be left out er once the company is liquidated.


What Wayland did is technically legal, no one is questioning that. What they're questioning is the morally dubious nature of Wayland and weather or not you want to do business with them or not. From this stuff and the owners posts on this site I can tell you that no one from my locale will be ordering from Wayland again. But that's just a personal preference and I'm sure he doesn't care that much.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Once I read the distributer letter in regards to this I have adjusted my views a bit, but I truly feel bad for the customers who were screwed by this and wish bad juju on the owner of Maelstrom and if half the stuff being said is true about him moving assets around ge should find himself in lawsuits for fraud, if any of those people are in the US I would look into wire fraud.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> What Wayland did is technically legal, no one is questioning that. What they're questioning is the morally dubious nature of Wayland and weather or not you want to do business with them or not. From this stuff and the owners posts on this site I can tell you that no one from my locale will be ordering from Wayland again. But that's just a personal preference and I'm sure he doesn't care that much.


Still cant work out why people think its Waylands fault.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

humakt said:


> Still cant work out why people think its Waylands fault.


Maelstrom going into liquidation is Maelstroms fault, I never suggested otherwise. Wayland have just conducted themselves in a manner which suggests they not a company I want to do any further business with though. 

Luckily Dark Sphere are shipping GW again so for us here Wayland has become obsolete.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

humakt said:


> Still cant work out why people think its Waylands fault.


"Blame the catalyst"???


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Partially because when I made my post all information was not available and as more information cones forth from other parties it shows more of what is happening. I made my original posts based on the two memos that were released from Wayland and Maelstrom. Now that distributors are coming out and saying their piece is become clearer that Wayland was acting, at least partially, in the interest of someone other then their selves. I do not read other forums so all I have seen is in this thread and on the respected websites.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I used to order from both Wayland and Maelstrom, it was nice to have the choice, but as was, I always preferred Wayland anyway. Sometimes the posing may not be too speedy, but with a few hundred unpainted minis knocking about I'm never in a rush. 

Disappointing about the chap from Maelstrom, it's totally jack what he's done.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I ordered 2 Seeker Chariots of Slaanesh from Wayland, received 2 Seekers of Slaanesh. Sent the wrong models back and got the correct ones 10 days later.

Ordered every Armourcast muzzle flash thing on Nov 3 for the huge discount and a Valkia the Bloody. Box arrived today with everything except for my Valkia model... Opened a case just now, but it's still annoying that a model is missing.

Ordered some Gamezone on the 9th, with my luck I will probably get the wrong models. Ordered the undead wolves 2 and 3. Will probably get 2 packs of Wolves 1...

Did order all the new Daemons this summer though and everything arrived just fine. For my Wayland has been a bit hit and miss. I've placed around 10 orders so far and there has been problems with 2.

Unless I can find it cheaper on Ebay I think Wayland will be whom I order from more regularly from now on, or rather if I need something and they offer free shipping at the time.

Does anyone live near EotS? Would you mind going there and demanding my miniatures for me? I can give receipts and everything :crazy:


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## pb97613 (Apr 2, 2012)

djinn24 said:


> Pb, that is the largest amount of BS I have seen I in a while. Unless UK business law are completely ass backward from the US then Wayland owes the rest of MG creditors dick.
> 
> Wayland bought the debt from someone, called the note, forced them into liquidation. Now Wayland and the rest of the companies who are owed money by MG get to fight over the pennies that will be left out er once the company is liquidated.


As i stated, there are a variety of ways that companies buy other companies debt/assets. All i did is share information that I see first hand in dealing with companies that are going through liquidation/administration and receivership here in Australia. If you don't want to accept the fact that it can be done in a variety of ways, I personally don't care. As i said, I was sharing industry knowledge on how these proceedings can happen based upon what I see first hand.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

pb97613 said:


> As i stated, there are a variety of ways that companies buy other companies debt/assets. All i did is share information that I see first hand in dealing with companies that are going through liquidation/administration and receivership here in Australia. If you don't want to accept the fact that it can be done in a variety of ways, I personally don't care. As i said, I was sharing industry knowledge on how these proceedings can happen based upon what I see first hand.


Clearly not relavent for a uk company however.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

pb97613 said:


> As i stated, there are a variety of ways that companies buy other companies debt/assets. All i did is share information that I see first hand in dealing with companies that are going through liquidation/administration and receivership here in Australia. If you don't want to accept the fact that it can be done in a variety of ways, I personally don't care. As i said, I was sharing industry knowledge on how these proceedings can happen based upon what I see first hand.


I think you have misunderstood the whole situation as the way you describe it is really really odd.

What has happened is that Maelstrom owed money to Simple Miniature Games.
Simple Miniature Games sold the debt OWED TO THEM to Wayland Games.
This means that Maelstrom now owes money to Wayland Games but no longer Simple Miniatures.

Wayland hasn't bought any of Maelstrom debt, they have bought debt OWED BY MAELSTROM to a 3rd party.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Wayland hasn't bought any of Maelstrom debt, they have bought debt OWED BY MAELSTROM to a 3rd party.


That's what is meant by the phrase 'Buying debt' Wayland bought Maelstroms debt, making themselves a creditor.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> That's what is meant by the phrase 'Buying debt' Wayland bought Maelstroms debt, making themselves a creditor.


This still doesn't mean Wayland is responsible to pay any of Maelstrom debt...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MadCowCrazy said:


> This still doesn't mean Wayland is responsible to pay any of Maelstrom debt...


I've not heard anyone suggest that, I might have missed it or you might have the wrong end of the stick.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

As it was too late to do a paypal chargeback I checked and for debit cards you can do a chargeback, though it isn't enforced by law. When I called the bank they had no idea what I was talking about so I checked online and it seems customer support aren't told about this (banking conspiracy HOOOOOOOOO). When I found out about this I went to the bank to talk to someone there and they helped me fill out an application. I honestly didn't think anything would come of it but today I received this from paypal:



> Hello Daniel Karlsson,
> 
> We recently received notice from your credit card company that you filed a
> chargeback stating that you did not receive merchandise you paid for.
> ...


With some luck I might be able to get back half of what Maelstrom owes me. I placed 2 orders for 2 DV boxes. The problem with the other transaction is that I was sent money over paypal by a guy I had agreed with to split 2 boxes. As the money was sent to my paypal and then to maelstrom it's not possible for me to dispute that payment any more.
He could dispute it but that would be a dispute against me which would bend me over, put a red gagball in my mouth and play the music from the cellar scene from Pulp Fiction.

I posted the replacement models to the guy this monday so if I get money back from this I will feel a bit better but it still doesn't cover anything because of the value of the replacement models I sent the guy.

So if you paid by debit card it may still be possible to get your money back.




Aramoro said:


> I've not heard anyone suggest that, I might have missed it or you might have the wrong end of the stick.





pb97613 said:


> When a company goes into receivership and then liquidation they hand over control of the business to someone else who is then seeking to get as much money as possible for all the creditors. With Wayland buying Maelstroms debt, this means that Wayland now owes money to those companies and lenders. It doesn't concern me as to why the did this, I'm just highlighting the accounting that goes behind liquidation for others who aren't aware. There has been more lost here other than orders that will not be delivered. I feel for the people who no longer have a job (who know's if they have outstanding pay or other entitlements to be settled), the suppliers who have been waiting to get paid for stock they have already supplied and the production based upon sales estimates form their retailers, the other businesses that Maelstrom was a key client of that no longer has that revenue coming in....etc.... There are many people who are severely impacted by a closing of a business in this manner. Depending upon how the business has been structured, the owners could potentially be pursued for outstanding liabilities that the business had. It's not really a case that a company just goes into liquidation and walks away clean and clear. Liquidation is a rather messy process for all involved. At the end of the day, this is a situation where no-one wins. Just remember that this impacts on many more people than just people who placed an order that won't arrive.


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