# Why didn't Horus just virus bomb Terra?



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

I was thinking about this the other day. Horus had fleet superiority above Terra, so why didn't he just virus bomb the planet and then invade? How many loyalist troops would have been eradicated like Isstvan III making his job all the easier. 

At Isstvan III they were unprepared (except those who could be warned), and on Terra I'm sure they would have expected it. However exterminatus seems to be portrayed as something a doomed planet can't avoid even if they wanted to.

Or lets say virus bombs wouldn't have worked, why not cyclonic torpedoes? We know the Warmaster had access to these devices, so why not use them? Sure Terra would be destroyed, but in one fell swoop he would have eradicated 3 full loyalist legions + primarchs, the emperor, custodes, and all other loyalist forces stationed there.

At that point, he would only have the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves to deal with. Of those three, the Dark Angels were split and weakened by an internal secret war and the Space wolves were super bloodied from destroying Prospero. The traitor legions would have curb stomped the loyalist survivors when they arrived at Terra too late.

After his great victory, Horus could have looked to rebuild/terraform Earth with the help of Kelbor-Hal and Mars, or simply moved his capital to Mars and called it a day. 


At Isstvan III he proved he was ruthless enough to do something like this to a planet. In uttering those famous for words, "let the galaxy burn," he proved he was willing to plunge the entire galaxy into bloody civil war. So why didn't he do it?

Aside from the obvious, because GW didn't write it that way... why do you think he didn't do it?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Horus wasn't simply aiming to kill the Emperor, he was seeking to continue the Great Crusade and rebuild a human empire. Destroying the birthworld of humanity and slaying many of its great works probably wouldn't sit too well with that plan.

Plus who knows what wonders the Emperor had stashed away on Terra?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

The Imperial Palace would stand up to virus bombing, so it wouldn't actually achieve much. Specifically I don't think it can kill Primarchs/the big E

???


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

One of the main reasons? Hubris no doubt. Horus was utterly confident he could win the siege and defeat the Emperors forces and the Emperor himself. He wanted to personally destroy the loyalists and take the throne of Terra for himself and become in his opinion the true Emperor of mankind. Terra is symbolic of the empire and humanity, he needed Terra if he wanted to take control like he did.

I'm sure Phobeus or CotE could put it more eloquantly, but that's the long and short of it imo.

Also theres no indication Horus knew of the betrayal within the Dark Angels, as far as he knew they were still at relatively full strength, and the Lion is lauded constantly as one of the best(if not the best) strategists of them all with one of the highest victory counts, combine him with the enormous forces Guilliman had at his command, Russ, who despite his losses is never to be underestimated, especially when combined with the Lion and Guilliman. The Iron Hands legion was though without its Primarch and veterans, still largely intact and if taken command of could still be lethal. All the loyalists not on Terra combined still make up a collossal threat.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> One of the main reasons? Hubris no doubt. Horus was utterly confident he could win the siege and defeat the Emperors forces and the Emperor himself. He wanted to personally destroy the loyalists and take the throne of Terra for himself and become in his opinion the true Emperor of mankind. Terra is symbolic of the empire and humanity, he needed Terra if he wanted to take control like he did.
> 
> I'm sure Phobeus or CotE could put it more eloquantly, but that's the long and short of it imo.
> 
> Also theres no indication Horus knew of the betrayal within the Dark Angels, as far as he knew they were still at relatively full strength, and the Lion is lauded constantly as one of the best(if not the best) strategists of them all with one of the highest victory counts, combine him with the enormous forces Guilliman had at his command, Russ, who despite his losses is never to be underestimated, especially when combined with the Lion and Guilliman. The Iron Hands legion was though without its Primarch and veterans, still largely intact and if taken command of could still be lethal. All the loyalists not on Terra combined still make up a collossal threat.


This. :goodpost:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I would imagine that Terra would have defenses in place to prevent this sort of action being taken. As I understand it Horus had a fair deal of trouble even landing troops and coming in close enough for his weapons to be effective would likely have cost him a lot of ships. And virus bombing would fail hard, a marine helmet is enough to protect against it, let alone the bunkers the palace would've had.

Ultimately though it's like Angel of Blood said, hubris. Horus dropped his shields, does that sound like someone who isn't certain of his victory?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I don't think Horus intended to destroy Terra. He was not a misanthropic killer hellbent on destroying humanity. He was jsut angry at his father. While his thoughts might suggest he hates the Imperium, it all boils down to him hating the Emperor. So I think he wanted to declare himself as the Emperor and lead humanity by his rule so destroying humanity's birthplace wouldn't do his image good. He wants Mankind to see him as a beacon of new hope not a tyranical villain. In his mind he is justified to betraying the Emperor.

Now you would say, "But wait? If he wants to rebuild the Imperium under his law and lead humanity, why attack Terra then?" Well obviously he would have to destroy much in order to rebuild but if he used an Exterminatus then he would have to rebuild everything.

idk thats my take on it. And how would Terra survive an Exterminatus?


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

hailene said:


> Plus who knows what wonders the Emperor had stashed away on Terra?


Good point. :good:







spanner94ezekiel said:


> The Imperial Palace would stand up to virus bombing, so it wouldn't actually achieve much. Specifically I don't think it can kill Primarchs/the big E


At that point in my post I was referring to cyclonic torpedoes. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I doubt the Emperor or the primarchs would have survived detonations powerful enough to crack a planet's crust and destabilise its core. Or the more exotic version of a two-stage cyclonic torpedo that would destroy the entire planet from the inside out.









Angel of Blood said:


> One of the main reasons? Hubris no doubt. Horus was utterly confident he could win the siege and defeat the Emperors forces and the Emperor himself. He wanted to personally destroy the loyalists and take the throne of Terra for himself and become in his opinion the true Emperor of mankind. Terra is symbolic of the empire and humanity, he needed Terra if he wanted to take control like he did.


I agree with most of this. I do think it was quite possibly hubris and overconfidence that led him to choose a siege over exterminatus, but I'm not sure about needing Terra to accomplish his rule. Maybe he wanted it to rule from (which ties into your hubris point), but I don't think he needed it. He achieved all kinds of control over worlds along is way to Terra, and he didn't control it then.




Angel of Blood said:


> Also theres no indication Horus knew of the betrayal within the Dark Angels, as far as he knew they were still at relatively full strength, and the Lion is lauded constantly as one of the best(if not the best) strategists of them all with one of the highest victory counts


Yet for all his tactical genius he was also easily blinded, something that if the non primarch Luther could have taken advantage of, Horus certainly could. As to Horus not knowing about the DA schism, that's a good point. There is no hard evidence to that end. However, it does seem logical to me that since Horus was allied with all 4 chaos powers, and since Luther and the DA's stationed with him on Caliban had fallen to chaos, that the chaos powers aiding Horus could have informed him. 

However, I don't think this would have mattered, because I just remembered that the inter-DA war didn't happen until after the Lion returned to Caliban post Heresy. So I was off. The DA's would have been full strength (minus what Luther had with him) when they arrived at Terra. 




Angel of Blood said:


> combine him with the enormous forces Guilliman had at his command, Russ, who despite his losses is never to be underestimated, especially when combined with the Lion and Guilliman. The Iron Hands legion was though without its Primarch and veterans, still largely intact and if taken command of could still be lethal. All the loyalists not on Terra combined still make up a collossal threat.


My point about curb stomping the remaining loyalists was contingent on Horus employing exterminatus at Terra. Had the full strength of the assembled traitor legions (since they wouldn't have sieged Terra) been there to meet Guilliman, Russ, and the Lion as they came in piecemeal, I think it would have been a serious miss match. 

If memory serves, Horus lowered the shields on his flagship because he got word those three legions were making their way towards Terra. I don't remember the Iron hands ever being mentioned in conjunction with this. Am I wrong about that? Were the IH's on their way to Terra as well? 

If Horus had used exterminatus to utterly destroy Terra, it wouldn't have been The Custodes, IF's, BA's, WS's, DA's, SW's, and UM's facing the traitor legions... it would have just been the SW's, DA's, UM's. That would have been a super lopsided battle. We all remember what happened the last time we had the traitor legions on 3. You think the loyalist legions on Isstvan V were surprised... imagine the surprise when the SW's, DA's, and UM's showed up and found Terra gone and the Emperor with it!

Besides, this doesn't even take into account that without Terra, the Astronomicon, and the Emperor to guide space travel. The 3 remaining loyalist legions would likely have been stranded in the middle of no where without the means to navigate. At that point, Horus could have simply left them, or could have used his alliance with the 4 chaos gods to navigate and pick them off one by one. 










MEQinc said:


> I would imagine that Terra would have defenses in place to prevent this sort of action being taken. As I understand it Horus had a fair deal of trouble even landing troops and coming in close enough for his weapons to be effective would likely have cost him a lot of ships. And virus bombing would fail hard, a marine helmet is enough to protect against it, let alone the bunkers the palace would've had.


We'll you'd think that if he could land troops, there would have been a way to deploy exterminatus. I agree with you about virus bombing though. Isstvan III proved that marines could survive this. The virus itself would do nothing if the marines were properly sealed in their armor. It would be the flash burning of all that gas that would cook a marine in his suit. However, the marines that could find sufficient shelter on Isstvan III not only survived, but were able to fight causing Horus to send troops down to finish the job. 

I think Horus would have had to use cyclonic or two-stage cyclonic torpedoes to destroy the loyalist forces on Terra (in the case of two-stage, the planet itself). Had Horus done that (used two-stage), he would have IMO accomplished the total annihilation of all 3 legions, primarchs, Emperor, Custodes, etc. stationed there. 




MEQinc said:


> Ultimately though it's like Angel of Blood said, hubris. Horus dropped his shields, does that sound like someone who isn't certain of his victory?


Yes. not only that, but there seemed to be a little bit of wanting to go toe to toe with dad. I think he wanted to show that he was better, smarter, stronger, faster that his dad. I think he wanted to best him in close combat and prove it. That would have been hard to do that if you blow the planet into tiny bits and your father along with it. :laugh:









Androxine Vortex said:


> I don't think Horus intended to destroy Terra. He was not a misanthropic killer hellbent on destroying humanity.


Destroying Terra would have hardly destroyed humanity. He destroyed Isstvan III with no remorse and was willing to plunge the entire galaxy into war, so I don't think he was too worried about 500 billion human lives (or whatever the population of Terra was at the time) worth of collateral damage. I agree more with your second point, that he wanted to face his dad one on one. Maybe even that he wanted to rule from Terra because his dad did. Maybe even to sit on his father's very throne after he'd defeated him to seal his ultimate victory.




Androxine Vortex said:


> idk thats my take on it. And how would Terra survive an Exterminatus?


Well it depends on what form of exterminatus Horus used. If he virus bombed the planet everything would be left save organic life. You'd have to terraform and import life (settlers, animals, plant life, etc.) from elsewhere to rebuild the planet. I imagine a planet could survive having it's crust cracked as well. I'm not a physicist, but I would think that eventually the core would re-stabilize, and the molten rock released by the crust being cracked and pummeled would cool and re-harden. Then, just like with the virus bombs, you'd have to import & rebuild. Two-stage cyclonic torpedoes however, would be another matter. If Horus deployed those, Terra would be no more. He'd have to move to Mars or someplace else at that point to rule the stars.




.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> a marine helmet is enough to protect against it


Obviously those present at Istvaan were not aware of this fact?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well the Palace itself and surrounding area would have the most sophisticated and powerfull shielding in the Imperium and i wager most of the galaxy. The shielding that protected The Rock was so strong that when Caliban literally blew up and had some parts of it sucked into the warp, The Rock endured. Now it would have of course had very, very good shileds and technology defening it, being a Primarchs homeworld and Legion headquarters, but it would have had nothing on Terra. 

And im certain the palace could happily survive virus bombs if mere sealed bunkers on Istvaan could, though the death toll would still be catastrophic on the civilian populace and any troops unlucky enough to be outside the walls.


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## thelastonestanding (Mar 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Horus wasn't simply aiming to kill the Emperor, he was seeking to continue the Great Crusade and rebuild a human empire. Destroying the birthworld of humanity and slaying many of its great works probably wouldn't sit too well with that plan.
> 
> Plus who knows what wonders the Emperor had stashed away on Terra?


I'd imagine this is the primary reason for the heretics not using devastating orbital attacks. Destroying the womb of humanity isn't the best way to start off your new Crusade. 
Then there's the very real possibility that such attacks would be ultimately ineffective against the most secure and fortified world in human space, if not the galaxy.
Finally, if you're going to rebel against a "tyrannical dictator", I'd imagine that killing him from orbit is far too impersonal and the like.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No the Iron Hands weren't part of the reinforcements, my point was if the loyalists had to flee, then they could have rallied the Iron Hands to them.

Don't forget aswell the nine traitor legions had suffered enormous casualties both at Istvaan III and V, even more casualties establishing orbit around Terra, the Thousand Sons being almost non existent and the Emperors Children being small even before their casualties, and the majority of the Word Bearers had just been defeated at Calth. With the Emperor gone aswell the reinforcements wave would probably fight to the death, especially as they had no way of going anywhere else accuratly with no Astronomican. The resulting fight probably would have devastated what was left of the traitors.

Of course its not good for the loyalists, if not outright impossible and hopeless, but the traitors would suffer horendously aswell.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

RE: Horus' motives... what *Angel of Blood* said. 

"Savage Weapons" implies the Traitors knew about Luther and Caliban (probably through the Chaos 411). I find it difficult to otherwise explain why Curze would allude to troubles within the Lion's Legion. I find it more interesting, though, as to why he _wouldn't_ tell his brother Primarch what was up. At the very least, it would have affected the Lion's morale, and the Legion's as well (assuming it was made known to them). Conceivably, though, the Lion may have turned to secure Caliban... leaving Curze unopposed and the Loyalists at a disadvantage.

A stretch, I know. :wink:

Ultimately, though, the Dark Angels were still at pretty much full strength. Luther only stops the reinforcements during the events of "Fallen Angels", which is when the Heresy kicks off. Granted, they might have lost some men on the Shield Worlds, but I doubt it was much more than a ding compared to their full combat power.

Incidentally:
*- Tactical:* of or relating to combat tactics: of or occurring at the battlefront ... of or relating to *small-scale actions serving a larger purpose* ...
*- Strategic:* of, relating to, or marked by strategy ... necessary to or important in the initiation, conduct, or completion of a strategic plan ... of great importance within *an integrated whole *... designed or trained to strike an enemy at the sources of its military, economic, or political power ...

As in, "the Lion showed his *strategic* acumen by recognizing Horus' requirements for the successful completion of the war, and thus moved to deny him the siege weapons he needed." It deals with the war as a whole, as opposed to: "the Lion showed his *tactical* acumen by leading a successful company-scale action against the Sons of Horus on the planet Diamat," which only involves a single battle within the greater war.

Cheers,
P.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well then we come to the question "Why didnt the loyalist virus-bomb the traitors at Isstvan V?" Because they were utterly confident with 7 seven legions they would win and they wanted to do it face to face with their former brothers.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> We'll you'd think that if he could land troops, there would have been a way to deploy exterminatus.


Given the shields and sturdiness (wasn't the Palace made out of some kind of crazy metal or something?) of the Palace and Terra I assumed it would take a sustained barrage from some of his most powerful ships. Those ships could/would be fairly quickly neutralized by the return fire. Conversly, every ship in his fleet is capable of dropping troops and require minimal time in atmo to complete the deployment (if it's done properly).



Doelago said:


> Obviously those present at Istvaan were not aware of this fact?


Well clearly they were as their response to the bombing was to seal up their suits. Many died as a result of battle-damage causing breaches in their armour, this would not be a concern for troops freshly deployed. They fled into the bunkers to a) avoid the burning aftermath which I am uncertain if a Marine could survive (I would think so given they can survive a vacuum) and b) to force Horus to come dig them out.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc,

Good words regarding the Imperial Palace. If Horus was made proof to orbital bombardment with a fortress on Isstvan V (I'm not claiming that just ANY fortress could work for this), then it stands to reason that the Imperial Palace could also withstand this.

As for the individual Legiones Astartes on Isstvan III, though, they survived by sealing themselves in bunkers, IIRC. Doesn't Solomon Demeter die on account of being out in the open, even though he's wearing power armour?

Cheers,
P.


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## eyeball7392 (Nov 1, 2010)

he probably didnt virus bomb terra because some of his humanity was still left he cudnt kill his father


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

eyeball7392 said:


> he probably didnt virus bomb terra because some of his humanity was still left he cudnt kill his father


Ouh? Did not prevent him from wiping the floor and ripping him apart limb by limb in mortal combat?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Horus was not Horus at that point. He was the four chaos powers bound to a mortal body.

Only at the brink of death did Horus _return_ but it was far too late.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> RE: Horus' motives... what *Angel of Blood* said.
> 
> "Savage Weapons" implies the Traitors knew about Luther and Caliban (probably through the Chaos 411). I find it difficult to otherwise explain why Curze would allude to troubles within the Lion's Legion.


Dammit, even before i posted that about the traitors not knowing what was occuring on Caliban i checked Savage Weapons, sure i had read some indication, couldn't find it on my skim through though, was sure there was something though.



forkmaster said:


> Well then we come to the question "Why didnt the loyalist virus-bomb the traitors at Isstvan V?" Because they were utterly confident with 7 seven legions they would win and they wanted to do it face to face with their former brothers.


They had constructed very, very strong bunkers, sealed easily against virus bombs. The bunkers survived the immense bombardment the three loyal legions dropped on their heads with ease.



MEQinc said:


> Well clearly they were as their response to the bombing was to seal up their suits. Many died as a result of battle-damage causing breaches in their armour, this would not be a concern for troops freshly deployed. They fled into the bunkers to a) avoid the burning aftermath which I am uncertain if a Marine could survive (I would think so given they can survive a vacuum) and b) to force Horus to come dig them out.


I'm pretty sure that it can't seal against the life eater virus. It says in _Galaxy in Flames_ that the corrosive agents in the virus dissolved exposed pipes and armour joints.



Phoebus said:


> MEQinc,Good words regarding the Imperial Palace. If Horus was made proof to orbital bombardment with a fortress on Isstvan V (I'm not claiming that just ANY fortress could work for this), then it stands to reason that the Imperial Palace could also withstand this.
> 
> As for the individual Legiones Astartes on Isstvan III, though, they survived by sealing themselves in bunkers, IIRC. Doesn't Solomon Demeter die on account of being out in the open, even though he's wearing power armour?
> 
> ...


Indeed, like i said before, if The Rock can survive Calibans destruction, the Palace could sure as hell survive Terra being destroyed.

Incidently it's Temeter your refering to, the Death Guard captain.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well the Palace itself and surrounding area would have the most sophisticated and powerfull shielding in the Imperium and i wager most of the galaxy. The shielding that protected The Rock was so strong that when Caliban literally blew up and had some parts of it sucked into the warp, The Rock endured.


This is a very good point, and sets a good precedent that even if Horus had deployed two-stage cyclonic torpedoes and blew up Terra, the palace itself (not to mention the forces within) could very well have survived as the Rock did.

If memory serves, the traitors did precede the siege with an extensive bombardment and the palace was obviously in tact after it. However, if memory also serves, Horus was able to blow chunks in the walls once on the planet. Was he inside the shields at that point? Were they disabled? Did the loyalist forces not have them turned on? Who knows.

However, even if Horus could have deployed two-stage cyclonic torpedoes or ground portable versions of them, it seems plausible to me that based on the fluff concerning Caliban that the palace could have survived.




Angel of Blood said:


> Don't forget aswell the nine traitor legions had suffered enormous casualties both at Istvaan III and V, even more casualties establishing orbit around Terra, the Thousand Sons being almost non existent and the Emperors Children being small even before their casualties, and the majority of the Word Bearers had just been defeated at Calth.


This is true. The traitor legions had been battered. But you'd have to take into account Ultramarine and Space Wolf losses as well. With the two largest legions clashing at Calth, the UM's had to take some losses driving the WB's back. While the TS's were definitely shattered, we can see by how many 2nd founding chapters came out of the SW's that they were unbelievably mauled too. In the end, only the DA's would have been coming in at full strength.

With the IF's, BA's, WS's, and Custodes all gone I think the traitor legions would have still (despite their losses) overwhelmingly outnumbered the remaining loyalists. Remember, according to the fluff the arrival of the UM's, SW's, and DA's would have tipped the balance in the loyalist's favor. That's why Horus acted as he did and lowered the shields on his flag ship. If those three legions arrived and found that another full 3 legions (in addition to the 3 shattered at Isstvan V) + the Custodes had been annihilated, it could very well been another disaster for the remaining loyalists.

However, this all goes back to your earlier point about the Rock. Maybe, even if Horus did manage to tear the Earth apart, he wouldn't have killed all the loyalists there. He probably would have only managed to wipe out the WS's as they weren't in the palace. That would have been a very, very different story... 





Angel of Blood said:


> With the Emperor gone aswell the reinforcements wave would probably fight to the death, especially as they had no way of going anywhere else accuratly with no Astronomican. The resulting fight probably would have devastated what was left of the traitors.
> 
> Of course its not good for the loyalists, if not outright impossible and hopeless, but the traitors would suffer horendously aswell.


I agree. They would have fought to the death. What else would there be for them to do? I suppose each of them could have retreated to their home world to make their last stand there, but in the end there would be nothing left to do but die fighting. 

My question though, is with the Astronomican gone how could they have even found their way to earth, much less back to their home worlds? Wouldn't they have just been stranded wherever they were? Either that or just wander the warp aimlessly without any reliable means for navigation?

However, this too goes back to the Rock example. Even if Horus ripped the planet apart could he have destroyed the Astronomican (presumably something this important would have the best shields as well).











Phoebus said:


> Ultimately, though, the Dark Angels were still at pretty much full strength. Luther only stops the reinforcements during the events of "Fallen Angels", which is when the Heresy kicks off. Granted, they might have lost some men on the Shield Worlds, but I doubt it was much more than a ding compared to their full combat power.


Yeah, I had forgotten that Luther's betrayal wasn't uncovered until after the battle of Terra was over. The DA's would have been at full strength minus the portion Luther had under his command back on Caliban.











forkmaster said:


> Well then we come to the question "Why didnt the loyalist virus-bomb the traitors at Isstvan V?" Because they were utterly confident with 7 seven legions they would win and they wanted to do it face to face with their former brothers.


*Angel of Blood's* comment about Horus having them construct serious defenses is well taken. They knew the loyalists were coming and that they would need fortifications to draw the 3 loyalist legions in so that the surprise other 4 legions could do their work.

However, there is something in what you say that has value. Like comments concerning the hubris of Horus and *Angel of Blood's* point about the Rock, this could very well be another key to the puzzle. I think some of your point fits under the point about overconfidence and hubris, but another part of it delves into one of the key aspects of what a space marine is all about.

Space marines are built for one reason. To fight. As Rogal Dorn argues in 'Execution Force,' assassination isn't the right answer to end the Heresy. He says it needs to come down to he and his brothers settling things on the field of battle (totally paraphrasing here as I don't have the book with me).

It's possible Horus didn't two-stage cyclonic torpedo Terra (either from orbit, or rigging some ground version of the device to deploy on the surface) because he was still after all an Astartes. Granted a corrupt and chaos influenced Astartes, but still and Astartes. The primarch's were born to fight, to lead their troops into battle. Some more than others embraced this (Angron verses Lorgar for example), but all were built for this purpose. In the end, why blow up the planet and miss the chance to kill your enemies face to face if that's what you were built to do? 











MEQinc said:


> Given the shields and sturdiness (wasn't the Palace made out of some kind of crazy metal or something?) of the Palace and Terra I assumed it would take a sustained barrage from some of his most powerful ships. Those ships could/would be fairly quickly neutralized by the return fire. Conversly, every ship in his fleet is capable of dropping troops and require minimal time in atmo to complete the deployment (if it's done properly).


Well we know Horus did bombard the planet (just with normal munitions verses exterminatus type weapons) and we know the palace remained in tact for he had to siege it, so I agree with you it could and did survive. Before *Angel of Blood's* point about the Rock I had simply thought nothing could survive the planet being ripped apart from the inside out. However, the Rock proves that not to be the case. With the right shielding, it is conceivable the palace and other key structures (the Astronomican, etc.) could have been adequately protected. 

I still think he could have deployed the device and made it work killing Terra (for example, he could deployed a ground version of the weapon), but I'm uncertain now as to whether he could have actually taken out the palace if its shielding was in place like the Rock's was. 




MEQinc said:


> They fled into the bunkers to a) avoid the burning aftermath which I am uncertain if a Marine could survive (I would think so given they can survive a vacuum) and b) to force Horus to come dig them out.


I would think they would not survive for two reasons. One they fled upon learning what was about to happen. I would surmise the marines on the planet were well aware of the weapons capability. Why flee if you had no chance of being harmed? I suppose they could have all fled because everyone of them had sustained battle damage however, and new their armor was compromised. We may never know about that, but the second reason is what truly seals it for me.

Many of us have been around large fires and the more fuel being consumed the more heat the fire is putting off. Imagine the heat put off by the gas produced by instantly killing all organic life on the planet would produce. Even in their armor there's only so much heat they could tolerate. While the armor might survive and not reach its melting point, the flesh and blood inside certainly could. 

It's the same principle only magnified to untold proportions that would tell us no marine (no matter how tough or what kind of armor he was wearing) would survive the heat from a melta gun, or from being placed in the center of a star. 

I would definitely think some of the loyal marines fled for cover in Isstvan III due to armor damage, but all of them? I imagine the rest fled because while they knew the virus might not kill them, the overwhelming heat would.

As well *Angel of Blood's* point about the life eater being able to eat through joints etc. could be true. I do remember the marines acting very much like their life was in peril.




.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> If memory serves, the traitors did precede the siege with an extensive bombardment and the palace was obviously in tact after it. However, if memory also serves, Horus was able to blow chunks in the walls once on the planet. Was he inside the shields at that point? Were they disabled? Did the loyalist forces not have them turned on? Who knows.


I guess its one of those classic sci-fi tropes, where a planet or base is protected from orbital attacks but is somehow vulnerable to ground troops. Much like in the Empire Strikes Back when the Empire state the Rebel base is protected by an energy field and land the ground troops instead to take it out. Just one of those things




Uber Ork said:


> This is true. The traitor legions had been battered. But you'd have to take into account Ultramarine and Space Wolf losses as well. With the two largest legions clashing at Calth, the UM's had to take some losses driving the WB's back. While the TS's were definitely shattered, we can see by how many 2nd founding chapters came out of the SW's that they were unbelievably mauled too. In the end, only the DA's would have been coming in at full strength.
> 
> With the IF's, BA's, WS's, and Custodes all gone I think the traitor legions would have still (despite their losses) overwhelmingly outnumbered the remaining loyalists. Remember, according to the fluff the arrival of the UM's, SW's, and DA's would have tipped the balance in the loyalist's favor. That's why Horus acted as he did and lowered the shields on his flag ship. If those three legions arrived and found that another full 3 legions (in addition to the 3 shattered at Isstvan V) + the Custodes had been annihilated, it could very well been another disaster for the remaining loyalists.


Oh no doubt they would still be outnumbered, but it wouldn't be as big as it sounds when you say nine legions vs three. The Ultramarines understrength still being bigger than any other legion, i highly doubt they would have lost over 100,000 men. But yeah it would end for the loyalists no doubt, but whens an animal at its most dangerous? At the end of its life or when backed into a corner. Both apply to the loyalists, nowhere to run to(assuming the astronomican is gone) and staring down death. Your gonna get whole armies teleporting onto ships and leaving their own ship to collide with others, taking sucicidal risks with potentially devastating consequences if they suceed and so on and so forth. So yeah, sure they would be destroyed, but wow would the traitors suffer for it, too much perhaps.




Uber Ork said:


> I agree. They would have fought to the death. What else would there be for them to do? I suppose each of them could have retreated to their home world to make their last stand there, but in the end there would be nothing left to do but die fighting.
> 
> My question though, is with the Astronomican gone how could they have even found their way to earth, much less back to their home worlds? Wouldn't they have just been stranded wherever they were? Either that or just wander the warp aimlessly without any reliable means for navigation?


I don't think they would be able to make it back to their homeworld if the astronomican was gone, they would have nowehere else to go, the only option would be to fight and die, hence the devastating casualties they would cause knowing this is the endgame, all or nothing.

Thought they wouldn't be able to navigate anywhere ekse, I think they would still be able to get there. Whilst i have nothing to back this up with, i believe the death of the Emperor and Terra would cause an enormous psychic event that the loyalist fleets navigators would be able to home in on, i mean the Phalanxs navigators were able to home in on the Eisenstiens detonating warp engines, imagine the signal the death of the most powerful psyker in existence would give off. Then theirs all the billions upon billions of deaths on Terra sending out a psychic death scream. Psykers across the Imperium felt the impact of the souls dying on Istvaan III.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Horus wasn't simply aiming to kill the Emperor, he was seeking to continue the Great Crusade and rebuild a human empire. Destroying the birthworld of humanity and slaying many of its great works probably wouldn't sit too well with that plan.
> 
> Plus who knows what wonders the Emperor had stashed away on Terra?


I agree. 

Also, Horus showed (in _Nemesis_ as one example) that he desired to face the Emperor and supplant him personally. If he wasn't willing to let an assassin destroy the Emperor, I imagine the same sort of logic would have applied to sanctioning an exterminatus. 

Also, just think of the strategic value of Terra and what technologies, administration and secrets it bore. This is the world that ruled a million others, the seat of the Emperor of Mankind. It was utterly invaluable. Controlling the information hub, Council of Terra, Navigator houses, Astronomican Et cetera (essentially the 30k equivalent of the Adeptus Terra) would have seemed essential to stabilising the Imperium after the civil war, Horus couldn't have simply destroyed it all. Other essentials could have possibly included the technologies and secrets behind the creations of the Legio Astartes (and perhaps the Primarchs), geneseed vaults (IIRC) and the like.

Beyond the practical values, as others have mentioned the symbolic value of controlling the cradle of humanity was immense.



Phoebus said:


> Good words regarding the Imperial Palace. If Horus was made proof to orbital bombardment with a fortress on Isstvan V (I'm not claiming that just ANY fortress could work for this), then it stands to reason that the Imperial Palace could also withstand this.


Indeed. It should be remembered that Rogal Dorn had spent many years fortifying the Imperial Palace prior to the Siege of Terra. Horus unleashed a horrendous orbital bomdardment prior to landing his Legions and the Palace survived intact, so this helps prove that a ground invasion was necessary.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

In regards to the shielding and the necessity of landing ground forces, it's likely they where some form of void shielding (seemingly the most common large scale shielding). Void Shields operate by deflecting/absorbing incoming impacts/energy above a certain speed; ie weapons fire. 

However things travelling sufficiently slowly can just go through. Which is why torpedos are an effective weapon in space combat as they travel (relatively) slow enough to pierce void shields. It's why you can walk through a titan's void shields to engage it's armour directly. So if the palace was protected by void shielding (as it likely was amongst other things) then a ground invasion would have been perhaps the quickest way to take Terra. It's possible that in the time it would take for a bombardment to work (the shields can recharge and i imagine there were many layers of shielding and generators) the loyalist re-enforcements could have arrived.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> I would think they would not survive for two reasons. One they fled upon learning what was about to happen. I would surmise the marines on the planet were well aware of the weapons capability. Why flee if you had no chance of being harmed? I suppose they could have all fled because everyone of them had sustained battle damage however, and new their armor was compromised. We may never know about that, but the second reason is what truly seals it for me.


Well just because odds are good you'll survive in undamaged armour is no reason not to duck into a bunker just in case. Plus with battle damage and any number of other reasons for potential breaches to exist, better safe than sorry. Also, do the marines on the ground know it's the life eater? Doesn't Tarvitz just tell them it's an attack, in which case you'd best get in the bunkers anyway.



> It's the same principle only magnified to untold proportions that would tell us no marine (no matter how tough or what kind of armor he was wearing) would survive the heat from a melta gun, or from being placed in the center of a star.


My point was more that if a marines armour can keep them warm in the void than it should (theorectically) be able to keep them cool in a firestorm. Especially given that the fire likely wouldn't have burned that long versus a void mission.



> As well *Angel of Blood's* point about the life eater being able to eat through joints etc. could be true. I do remember the marines acting very much like their life was in peril.


That's true, I'd forgotten about that. I was more basing my points on the fact that the novel specifically mentions marines being killed through armour breaches but doesn't (IIRC) mention anybody's suit being eaten through. Possibly the material that marine suit joints are made of is stronger than piping material (unlikely I know) or the acid is less effective when disperced in atmosphere (larger area of coverage, greater distance to cover, etc). I would expect the concentrated dose that the marines on the Eisenstien took would be more dangerous than the broader dispersal of a global bombardment.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Huron-Fal, the Dreadnought, was the individual who was worried about breaches in his armour.

Ullis Temeter's breathing grill and filters fail him. Mind you, I'm not sure why Astartes who wear armour allowing them to operate in vacuum would be so prone to biological warfare of any sort. Breaches in armour I get; the same stuff that is supposed to keep your atmosphere in and everything else out failing on you... not so much.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> That's true, I'd forgotten about that. I was more basing my points on the fact that the novel specifically mentions marines being killed through armour breaches but doesn't (IIRC) mention anybody's suit being eaten through. Possibly the material that marine suit joints are made of is stronger than piping material (unlikely I know) or the acid is less effective when disperced in atmosphere (larger area of coverage, greater distance to cover, etc). I would expect the concentrated dose that the marines on the Eisenstien took would be more dangerous than the broader dispersal of a global bombardment.


Galaxy In Flames mentions the corrosive agents eating through the armour and also mentions the virus itself entering through battle damage.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It would defeat the point of Horus's treachery if he destroyed the very thing he wanted to control. Even the chaos gods knew how Important controlling Terra is in the grand scheme of things.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> Plus who knows what wonders the Emperor had stashed away on Terra?


I reckon he has an actual Ipod 5...

The need to take the palace and face the Emperor directly would have been psychological for Horus.

He wanted to show everyone he was better and stronger than his father by defeating him "Primarch to god like non-human imposter"

By simply destroying it all it would have been in direct conflict with this goal.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Oh no doubt they would still be outnumbered, but it wouldn't be as big as it sounds when you say nine legions vs three. The Ultramarines understrength still being bigger than any other legion, i highly doubt they would have lost over 100,000 men.


Weren't the Word Bearers of similar size? However, your point is well taken that the Ultramarines at this point were largely undamaged save the action at Calth. As well, the Word Bearers had yet to prove they could beat the Ultramarines or any other of their Astartes brethren for that matter. A handful of Ultramarines, plus a few Space Wolves, World Eaters, & a Thousand Son defeated an enormous ship full of them, reinforcements from Macragge completely drove Kor Phaeron off Calth and all the way back to the Maelstrom, and Lorgar got slapped around by Corax on Isstvan V. In fact, the only real case of a Word Bearer being one up on his Astartes brothers is Erebus and that's not even through combat. 




Angel of Blood said:


> Thought they wouldn't be able to navigate anywhere ekse, I think they would still be able to get there. Whilst i have nothing to back this up with, i believe the death of the Emperor and Terra would cause an enormous psychic event that the loyalist fleets navigators would be able to home in on, i mean the Phalanxs navigators were able to home in on the Eisenstiens detonating warp engines, imagine the signal the death of the most powerful psyker in existence would give off. Then theirs all the billions upon billions of deaths on Terra sending out a psychic death scream. Psykers across the Imperium felt the impact of the souls dying on Istvaan III.


Very, very good point. That makes perfect sense and I think the comparisons are correct. So they could have made it to Terra to face their likely end had Horus managed to snuff out Earth, the Emperor, the Loyalists there, and the Astronomican. That would have SO changed the 40K universe as we know and love it today, but man would that have made a great story! 











Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, Horus showed (in Nemesis as one example) that he desired to face the Emperor and supplant him personally. If he wasn't willing to let an assassin destroy the Emperor, I imagine the same sort of logic would have applied to sanctioning an exterminatus.


Wasn't Spear sent to kill the Emperor though? Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but wasn't that the whole reason he searched out the Void Baron Eurotas's Warrent of Trade was so that he could gain access to the Emperor's DNA through a drop of the Emperor's blood and use that to later kill him? Lexicanum says the following as well...


> *From Lexicanum's description of Spear *
> Spear was an assassin tasked with killing the Emperor of Mankind during the Horus Heresy.


Why would Horus, wanting to face the Emperor personally allow Erebus to dispatch Spear to kill him? I think that Horus just wanted the Emperor dead. Now... after Spear failed and Horus was in orbit above Terra, I can see what your saying. An "alright, I'll do it myself" sort of thing.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, just think of the strategic value of Terra and what technologies, administration and secrets it bore. This is the world that ruled a million others, the seat of the Emperor of Mankind. It was utterly invaluable. Controlling the information hub, Council of Terra, Navigator houses, Astronomican Et cetera (essentially the 30k equivalent of the Adeptus Terra) would have seemed essential to stabilising the Imperium after the civil war, Horus couldn't have simply destroyed it all. Other essentials could have possibly included the technologies and secrets behind the creations of the Legio Astartes (and perhaps the Primarchs), geneseed vaults (IIRC) and the like.


You bring up an interesting point about the geneseed vaults and other associated technologies. He may have indeed wanted access to those. The other stuff (council of Terra, Navigator houses, Astronomcan, etc.) I think he could have gone without. 

Since Terra is only one of approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium _(40K 5th Ed Rulebook, Pg. 115) _and each of those worlds has hundreds of billions of people I'm sure there are other places suitable to have make the new seat of power. With there being over a million worlds _(40K 5th Ed Rulebook, Pg. 114) _in the Imperium I'm sure the loss of one wouldn't be too damaging. Sure it was the seat of government but I doubt (as the short story "Liar's Due" in "Age of Darkness" so aptly points out) that most worlds even talked to Terra except through a daily announcement. That announcement could have been sent from any world. The short story does a great job of showing how most worlds never had much contact with Terra, and that it would have mattered little who was on the throne or where that throne was located. Besides, Horus was already exerting influence over all kind of star systems before arriving at Terra, and he didn't control it then.

As to space travel, Horus fleet already had trained Navigators and surely could have trained others creating new Navigator houses. As well, he had major allies in the warp, and I imagine this would have made the task of navigating all the easier. He might not have needed the Atronomican as he had all 4 Chaos gods on his side. 

As to the geneseed vaults, even if he destroyed the geneseed, the HH books have shone us twice now that the Chaos gods are capable of transporting people back in time to the lab where it all started. I imagine they could have done that again and allies from Mars or apothecaries/scientists within Horus's own forces could have observed the process, taken detailed notes, and with the help of Mars produced new facilities elsewhere to continue the work. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed. It should be remembered that Rogal Dorn had spent many years fortifying the Imperial Palace prior to the Siege of Terra. Horus unleashed a horrendous orbital bomdardment prior to landing his Legions and the Palace survived intact, so this helps prove that a ground invasion was necessary.


Unless he unleashed exterminatus two-stage cyclonic torpedoes either from space, to unshielded portions of the plant, or via ground versions of the weapon since we know he was able to land on the surface. This would have ripped the planet apart from the inside out in a catastrophic world ending explosion. However, this is where *Angel of Blood's* point about the Rock comes in. 











Rems said:


> However things travelling sufficiently slowly can just go through. Which is why torpedos are an effective weapon in space combat as they travel (relatively) slow enough to pierce void shields. It's why you can walk through a titan's void shields to engage it's armour directly. So if the palace was protected by void shielding (as it likely was amongst other things) then a ground invasion would have been perhaps the quickest way to take Terra. It's possible that in the time it would take for a bombardment to work (the shields can recharge and i imagine there were many layers of shielding and generators) the loyalist re-enforcements could have arrived.


This is why I've put forth the idea of ground versions of the two-staged cyclonic torpedo. Normally you don't want to be on the planet when it explodes so you fire them from space. But Horus could have simply bombarded the planet (as he did) to keep the loyalists pinned down while he had forces of his own land on a less defended area of the planet. 

We know he bombarded the Terra, so it had to have had some effect. Maybe it kept the loyalists pinned down behind the safety of their void shields while he landed troops, or maybe it was to soften up defenses not protected by void shielding, but either way there had to be some reason for doing it. For me, if nothing else, it would have kept loyalist forces pinned down and not able to come out from behind their shields.

Taking advantage of this, I imagine that in the same way Horus landed troops to siege the palace, he could have landed a strike force to deployed ground based versions of two-stage cyclonic torpedoes. Then, once the weapons were engaged, his forces could have escaped via their stormbirds and made haste back towards the fleet in orbit as the torpedoes made their way down to the Earth's core. 

I think Horus could have done it. We know he deployed on the planet because he siege's the palace. It doesn't seem like that much of a jump to assume he could have deployed ground based planet killing weapons if he had set his mind to it. Even if they had to bring torpedoes down in pieces, form a perimeter and assemble them, had he really wanted to... he could have got the job done. 











MEQinc said:


> Also, do the marines on the ground know it's the life eater? Doesn't Tarvitz just tell them it's an attack, in which case you'd best get in the bunkers anyway.


That's a good point. I don't really remember what Saul told them. However I think *Phoebus* and *Angel of Blood* are correct in that it did eat through armor, or rather maybe weak points like joint seals, etc. In any case, the whole reason the Warmaster deployed the life eater virus was to kill the loyalist marines amongst his forces. Why deploy a weapon if you didn't think it would be effective against them? 




MEQinc said:


> My point was more that if a marines armour can keep them warm in the void than it should (theorectically) be able to keep them cool in a firestorm. Especially given that the fire likely wouldn't have burned that long versus a void mission.


This is true and I agree with you that it would protect them to a certain degree. My thought is that there has to be a point at which Astarte's armor is unable to keep (A) the marine cool enough, or (B) from melting itself (thus my ridiculous star example).

Since there's no exact specs on what temperature a marines armor can protect him from, nor what temperatures are reached when the gases produced by the life eater are ignited... we'll probably never know the answer to this.

However, I think the evidence from Isstvan III that *Phoebus* and *Angel of Blood* presented as well as Horus opting to deploy the devices in the first place, is enough to tell us it was deadly even to an armored Astartes.











Words_of_Truth said:


> It would defeat the point of Horus's treachery is he destroyed the very thing he wanted to control. Even the chaos gods knew how Important controlling Terra is in the grand scheme of things.


Well, he still would have had the other 999,999 worlds that make up the imperium to rule, but I see your point. It is entirely possible that part of Horus's desire was to rule those worlds from the exact same place his father did. 











Durant said:


> The need to take the palace and face the Emperor directly would have been psychological for Horus.
> 
> He wanted to show everyone he was better and stronger than his father by defeating him "Primarch to god like non-human imposter"
> 
> By simply destroying it all it would have been in direct conflict with this goal.


This could be, but again as I mentioned earlier in the post, he did send Spear to assassinate the Emperor. This tells me that facing his father down one on one couldn't have been the main reason for sparing Terra from Exterminatus.






.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> i believe the death of the Emperor and Terra would cause an enormous psychic event that the loyalist fleets navigators would be able to home in on


There's a good chance there's no Terra to navigate too. As I recall, that sort of psychic event seems to push planets into the warp with disturbing frequency.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> Weren't the Word Bearers of similar size?


Yes but they suffered much greater casualties at Calth than the Ultramarines did. Plus, they kinda suck.



> Wasn't Spear sent to kill the Emperor though?


Spear was sent without Horus' knowledge or permission.



> Since Terra is only one of approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium (40K 5th Ed Rulebook, Pg. 115) and each of those worlds has hundreds of billions of people I'm sure there are other places suitable to have make the new seat of power. With there being over a million worlds (40K 5th Ed Rulebook, Pg. 114) in the Imperium I'm sure the loss of one wouldn't be too damaging.


Physically Terra isn't important. The thing to remember though is that it is the cradle of humanity. The birthplace of the entire species. Even if people have no idea where it is or what it looks like it's still increadibly significant to them. 

It's hard to claim to be leading a rebellion against a corrupt leader when your willing to destroy the very foundation of your race. That's gonna scare some people.



> As to the geneseed vaults, even if he destroyed the geneseed, the HH books have shone us twice now that the Chaos gods are capable of transporting people back in time to the lab where it all started.


That's one possible interpretation of those scenes. Bare in mind though that nothing is physically done in those situations. Plus, I think the Emperor and the Custodes might be mighty pissed if you tried to steal the gene-seed. Also, the time-paradox dear god the time-paradox.



> This is why I've put forth the idea of ground versions of the two-staged cyclonic torpedo.


We don't know that such a device exists or could be created. Remember that a lot of the penetrating power of the torpedeo will come from being fired so just planting one on the surface isn't going to work.



> We know he bombarded the Terra, so it had to have some effect.


My guess is that it was to keep the bulk of the Imperial's weapons silenced. Both by detonating it in atmo (anti-anti-aircraft fire if you will) and by forcing them to not shoot (I don't know void shields work but presumably they have to open/deactivate for shots to come out).



> That's a good point. I don't really remember what Saul told them. However I think *Phoebus* and *Angel of Blood* are correct in that it did eat through armor, or rather maybe weak points like joint seals, etc.


Oh, yeah I've pretty much accepted that I was wrong on this. It just seems odd to me that a suit that can take gunfire and survive in the void is susceptible to bio-weapons and acid (they spit acid for christsakes).



> This is true and I agree with you it would protect them to a degree. My point was simply that there has to be a temperature that at some (forgive the pun) degree would overwhelm the armor's ability to either (A) keep them cool or (B) where the armor itself as well as the marine would melt (i.e. over ridiculous star example).


I understand that and agree completely. However it is unlikely that a fire will burn as hot as outer space will be cold. It's possible that the suits are better at heating than cooling but... eh. Another thing that bugs me about marine armour.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Yes but they suffered much greater casualties at Calth than the Ultramarines did. Plus, they kinda suck.


I agree with you there haha, they do kind of suck (no offense to WB fans out there). 





MEQinc said:


> Spear was sent without Horus' knowledge or permission.


Huh, I don't remember this. However I did go back and read the rest of Lexicanum's info on Spear in its entirety and it does say this...


> *Lexicanum section on Spear*
> Two years after the events of Isstvan V, Spear was tasked by Erebus (seemingly without Horus's knowledge) to assassinate the Emperor. ...and... Horus later admonished Erebus for the latter's plan, declaring that only he--Horus--would kill the Emperor, and no other.


Thank you for the correction and it looks like I owe the *Child-of-the-Emperor* and *Durant* an apology. 




MEQinc said:


> Physically Terra isn't important. The thing to remember though is that it is the cradle of humanity. The birthplace of the entire species. Even if people have no idea where it is or what it looks like it's still increadibly significant to them.


Well yes and no. For instance, here in the US the country is made up of nearly all immigrants of one nationality or another and yet after only a few generations the vast majority of us think nothing of the country our grandparents, or great grandparents, etc. immigrated from. Our loyalties don't lie with those countries but with the country of our birth, the USA.

I would think nothing of it if the country my family immigrated from 4 generations ago got in a war, was attacked, etc. except to feel bad for them as one human does for the suffering of another.

I imagine the same would be said about the far distant future and for sure that's exactly what is portrayed in the short story "Liars Due" from "Age of Darkness." 




MEQinc said:


> It's hard to claim to be leading a rebellion against a corrupt leader when your willing to destroy the very foundation of your race. That's gonna scare some people.


Well it's not like he didn't destroy lots of worlds on his way to Terra. "Nemesis" bears this out well as it wasn't tender mercy that made worlds declare for Horus, but fear. Nothing would render fear like blasting Terra into a million pieces and the Emperor with it. 

It would very effectively send the message, mess with me, and I'll exterminate your entire planet. It's exactly how the Emperor ran things, how the crusade was carried out (join or die), and how the 40K universe is today 10,000 years after the Heresy. 




MEQinc said:


> That's one possible interpretation of those scenes. Bare in mind though that nothing is physically done in those situations. Plus, I think the Emperor and the Custodes might be mighty @#!*% if you tried to steal the gene-seed. Also, the time-paradox dear god the time-paradox.


Well we know for a fact that Argel Tal and members of the Gal Vorbak physically destroyed the gellar field protecting the Emperor's lab which allowed the Chaos gods to scatter the primarchs throughout the galaxy. By the time that happened there wasn't anything the Emperor could do. If the gods took Horus back before this event even they could take anything they wanted and then be whisked away again just like Argel Tal. And yes... the time paradox... haha, let the 'chaos' ensue!!! 




MEQinc said:


> We don't know that such a device exists or could be created. Remember that a lot of the penetrating power of the torpedeo will come from being fired so just planting one on the surface isn't going to work.


No we don't know that such a device exists/existed. However, where there's a will, there's a way. Just like the Japanese altered their torpedoes to work in the shallow water of Pearl Harbor in WWII I imagine if Horus wanted to do it bad enough it could be done. The weapons are described as having a melta like component that bores through a planets crust. I imagine that just like the Emperor had the inside of volcano bored out with ground based melta technology that something similar could have been adapted here.




.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> Wasn't Spear sent to kill the Emperor though? Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but wasn't that the whole reason he searched out the Void Baron Eurotas's Warrent of Trade was so that he could gain access to the Emperor's DNA through a drop of the Emperor's blood and use that to later kill him? Lexicanum says the following as well...Why would Horus, wanting to face the Emperor personally allow Erebus to dispatch Spear to kill him? I think that Horus just wanted the Emperor dead. Now... after Spear failed and Horus was in orbit above Terra, I can see what your saying. An "alright, I'll do it myself" sort of thing.


Not exactly. _Spear_ was sent by Erebus, not by Horus. Horus goes on to reprimand Erebus after Spear's death:



> _“This war will end only when I look my father in the eyes. When he sees the truth I will make clear to him, he will know I am right. He will join me in that understanding.”
> 
> Erebus felt a thrill of dark power. “And if the Emperor does not?”
> 
> Horus’ gaze became cold. “Then I—and I alone—will kill him.”_


Even if Horus could have simply obliterated Terra from orbit (strategic/symbolic consequences aside for a moment) it seems that he wouldn't have wished to. He wanted to face the Emperor personally, to vindicate his betrayal. 



Uber Ork said:


> You bring up an interesting point about the geneseed vaults and other associated technologies. He may have indeed wanted access to those. The other stuff (council of Terra, Navigator houses, Astronomcan, etc.) I think he could have gone without.
> 
> Since Terra is only one of approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium _(40K 5th Ed Rulebook, Pg. 115) _and each of those worlds has hundreds of billions of people I'm sure there are other places suitable to have make the new seat of power.


No doubt that another world could have been sought to capital the new empire. But putting aside the symbolic value of Terra for a moment, im not sure I agree with you in regards to the lack of importance of the 30k equiviliant of the Adeptus Terra. The bureaucracy and administration that governed the Imperium was inconceivably vast (even during 30k) it would have been illogical to completely eradicate it only to then attempt to reassert authority over every corner of the empire. No doubt Horus already held extensive amounts of authority and influence (primarily through military might and reputation) across the galaxy, but the bureaucracy and administration was still needed, that was how Terra was able to rule a million other worlds. He was trying to supplant the Emperor, not forge an entirely new empire.

Also, its not clear whether or not the traitor forces still used the Astronomican throughout the Heresy or whether or not they managed an alternative (having allies in the warp or similar to how the Night Lords navigated the warp in their novel series by _AD-B_). I see no reason why they wouldn't have used the Astronomican, unless they seen it as relying on the Emperor and therefore counter-productive in a sense to the point of their rebellion. But regardless, there was certainly some value in controlling the Astronomican (even without the Emperor). In regards to the Navigator houses, as you said he probably could have reestablished them, but these are institutions whose history and traditions stretched back thousands of years, they wouldn't have been easy to replace. And thats just some of the examples that made up the Adeptus Terra.

Horus could have endured without the Adeptus Terra, but it would have made ruling the Imperium much easier if he took it over intact.



Uber Ork said:


> Besides, Horus was already exerting influence over all kind of star systems before arriving at Terra, and he didn't control it then.


He may not have controlled it then, but he was expected to come the end of the war. His victory was seen as inevitable by many.



Uber Ork said:


> Unless he unleashed exterminatus two-stage cyclonic torpedoes either from space, to unshielded portions of the plant, or via ground versions of the weapon since we know he was able to land on the surface. This would have ripped the planet apart from the inside out in a catastrophic world ending explosion. However, this is where *Angel of Blood's* point about the Rock comes in.


Aye, _AoB_'s thought process is interesting here, if the Rock survived why not the Palace I suppose?


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not exactly. _Spear_ was sent by Erebus, not by Horus. Horus goes on to reprimand Erebus after Spear's death:
> 
> 
> > “This war will end only when I look my father in the eyes. When he sees the truth I will make clear to him, he will know I am right. He will join me in that understanding.”
> ...


Excellent! Thanks for the quote. While (for some strange reason) I don't remember this part from "Nemesis" at all, this is the nail in the coffin for me. 

I don't think Horus needed Terra. I think he could have ruled fine without it. I also don't think that Horus did not destroy Terra because he couldn't. He definitely had the means, but clearly chose not to. What I do think, after reading the above quote from "Nemesis," is that all of you who proposed Horus choose not to use exterminatus because he wanted to go one on one with the Emperor were right! :good:




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No doubt that another world could have been sought to capital the new empire. But putting aside the symbolic value of Terra for a moment, im not sure I agree with you in regards to the lack of importance of the 30k equiviliant of the Adeptus Terra. The bureaucracy and administration that governed the Imperium was inconceivably vast (even during 30k) it would have been illogical to completely eradicate it only to then attempt to reassert authority over every corner of the empire.


This assumes that one, he could have captured all the facilities and workers in tact, and that two, they would have served Horus as they did the Emperor.

On account number one, it is likely that in bringing 9 legions + imperial army + titans + daemons, etc. to Terra that the ensuing conflict would have created untold damage. Horus could have tried to minimize this I suppose, but even then that doesn't discount that a regime as radical as the Imperium wouldn't simply enact a scorched earth policy and destroy what Horus would need if the battle turned ill and it became obvious the Imperium would fall. 

On account number two, it would be unclear what would happen to the bureaucracy if Horus would have won. Like many systems they could have simply rolled over, but all of them? It is just as likely that they would have refused to work for Horus and fled to join other rebels and enact gorilla warfare.

I'm uncertain that any of those things would happen, but my point is we should also be uncertain that the administrative arm of the imperium would have simply slipped to Horus as is. Being the strategist that he is, he would have to plan for that... a 'just in case' scenario for how he would have maintained control in the event that the apparatus for control was destroyed (either accidentally or via sabotage), or that the administrative personnel refused to work under a new flag.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No doubt Horus already held extensive amounts of authority and influence (primarily through military might and reputation) across the galaxy, but the bureaucracy and administration was still needed, that was how Terra was able to rule a million other worlds. He was trying to supplant the Emperor, not forge an entirely new empire.


I think when he uttered his now infamous line, "let the galaxy burn," he knew it would come to just that. He new how radical a regime it was that he faced, and to what radical lengths he would have to go to defeat it.

He knew this because he worked for that regime. For hundreds of years he crusaded in this regime's name and told worlds, join or die. I think that is why he went even above and beyond the Emperor in instilling fear. So that fear would keep the different systems in line. 

Clearly to take advantage of the entire Imperium he would have had to maintain lines of communication, but we can't be entirely sure that the chaos gods wouldn't have assisted him in this either. I imagine, as I already mentioned, that Horus would have had to plan for the possibility that the 30K equivalent of the Administratum might not have been there for him to access. 

You know what they say, no plan survives contact with the enemy. So while plan number one may have been to capture it in tact, someone of his caliber must have had an alternative plan if that didn't work.

If one logically can accept that, then one can logically say Horus didn't take Terra because he needed to. Wanted to, yes, but not needed to. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, its not clear whether or not the traitor forces still used the Astronomican throughout the Heresy or whether or not they managed an alternative (having allies in the warp or similar to how the Night Lords navigated the warp in their novel series by _AD-B_).


Yes. This is the exact point I was looking to make concerning the 30K version of the Administratum.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I see no reason why they wouldn't have used the Astronomican, unless they seen it as relying on the Emperor and therefore counter-productive in a sense to the point of their rebellion. But regardless, there was certainly some value in controlling the Astronomican (even without the Emperor).


Again, assuming he could take it in tact and that they would have stayed and worked for him. It is just as likely that the loyalists would have fled to initiate gorilla action, destroyed the facilities via scorched earth, or both. Radical regimes do radical things, and considering the Imperium would have been one of the most radical regimes in history, I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine a course of action like this.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In regards to the Navigator houses, as you said he probably could have reestablished them, but these are institutions whose history and traditions stretched back thousands of years, they wouldn't have been easy to replace. And thats just some of the examples that made up the Adeptus Terra.


True, but if he wanted easy he shouldn't have started a galactic civil war. All I was meaning was that he must have had thousands and thousands of trained navigators. They presumably could have trained new ones and founded new houses. Would it have taken time to reach the levels pre-heresy? Sure, but it would also take time to rebuild the palace and everything else destroyed by this conflict. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus could have endured without the Adeptus Terra, but it would have made ruling the Imperium much easier if he took it over intact.


Oh I 100% agree with you. I don't think it would have been easy, but again, taking everything in tact assumes he could have done so. I think there's just as good a chance he couldn't have even if he tried. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He may not have controlled it then, but he was expected to come the end of the war. His victory was seen as inevitable by many.


I think the same fear that brought so many systems over to his side would have been amplified 10,000 fold if he had blown Terra to bits. Talk about fear. Consider this quote from "Forgotten Sons" in "Age of Darkness..."


> *Forgotten Sons pg. 176*
> The Iron Warrior had achieved his mission. Whatever the purpose of the schematics Heka'tan had described, it would not be discovered until it was too late. The message was sent. Horus wanted the galaxy to know, he had used Bastion as an example.
> _Ally with the Imperium and die._
> Neutral planets would go down on bended knee for the Warmaster now, the threat of reprisals too real and absolute for them to ignore.


If other planets thought Horus destroying the world of Bastion sent a message. Destroying Terra would have, like I said, reinforced this 10,000 times over. It reminds me of the classic discussion from Star Wars...


> *Tarkin:* The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.
> 
> *Tagge:* That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
> 
> *Tarkin:* The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.





In the end, I think it would have come down to one primary reason for Horus, just as you mentioned...


> “This war will end only when I look my father in the eyes. When he sees the truth I will make clear to him, he will know I am right. He will join me in that understanding.”
> 
> Erebus felt a thrill of dark power. “And if the Emperor does not?”
> 
> Horus’ gaze became cold. “*Then I—and I alone—will kill him*.”


The Emperor was on Terra in his palace, and so that's where Horus went to get him. When he ran out of time due to the immanent arrival of the UM's, DA's, and SW's he dropped the shields on his flagship to entice the Emperor up there to face him. Ironically, in the end he got his wish, it just cost him his life to do it. 



.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> Well yes and no. For instance, here in the US the country is made up of nearly all immigrants of one nationality or another and yet after only a few generations the vast majority of us think nothing of the country our grandparents, or great grandparents, etc. immigrated from. Our loyalties don't lie with those countries but with the country of our birth, the USA.
> 
> I would think nothing of it if the country my family immigrated from 4 generations ago got in a war, was attacked, etc. except to feel bad for them as one human does for the suffering of another.


That's very different however. Humans have immigrated all across our world and continue to do so, many claim little allegience to their original home. However many people place great importance on the traditions of that home, even generations past. Further Terra isn't just a country your grandparents left for whatever reason. It is the birthplace of humanity. The origin of the species. All humans in the galaxy can trace descent from Terra. It is the one thing all humans have in common. Terra is ultimately a symbol of humanity, we are ultimately tied to our original homeworld. 



> I imagine the same would be said about the far distant future and for sure that's exactly what is portrayed in the short story "Liars Due" from "Age of Darkness."


But they place so much importance on Terra. They have never been, they have no idea what it looks like but it is so crucial to their understanding of the galaxy. Look at the significance they place on it in other books.



> Well it's not like he didn't destroy lots of worlds on his way to Terra. "Nemesis" bears this out well as it wasn't tender mercy that made worlds declare for Horus, but fear. Nothing would render fear like blasting Terra into a million pieces and the Emperor with it.


The Imperium had destroyed countless worlds before, ultimately what Horus unleashed was nothing they hadn't seen before. Further all of these acts were carried out 'for humanity' and I think there's a point at which that stops being justifiable. Can you really claim to be fighting 'for humanity' when you are destroying the very planet that gave birth to humanity? 



> It would very effectively send the message, mess with me, and I'll exterminate your entire planet. It's exactly how the Emperor ran things, how the crusade was carried out (join or die), and how the 40K universe is today 10,000 years after the Heresy.


Destroying Terra goes beyond just 'join or die' it's 'to achieve my victory I will destroy everything we ever were'. It could be a powerful symbol of rebirth (phoenix from the ashes, etc) but it is ultimately an act symbolic of forgetting/devaluating the origins of all human life.



> Well we know for a fact that Argel Tal and members of the Gal Vorbak physically destroyed the gellar field protecting the Emperor's lab which allowed the Chaos gods to scatter the primarchs throughout the galaxy.


Or, and equally valid, they simply symbolicly removed their own resistance to the influence of Chaos. 



> By the time that happened there wasn't anything the Emperor could do. If the gods took Horus back before this event even they could take anything they wanted and then be whisked away again just like Argel Tal.


In Horus' vision (going by your interpretation of 'vision as fact') the Emperor is shown being able to respond and choosing not to. Doubtless he would have if he had not believed this course of action to be beneficial.

Further there are paradoxes present in Horus' and Argel Tal's visions that are really only possible if they didn't happen. Horus for example meets individuals who will latter not recognize him, he fights and kills Custodes (IIRC) of which no mention is ever made. The Emperor *sees him* and then latter refuses to accept that he is a traitor? It makes very little sense.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> Well we know for a fact that Argel Tal and members of the Gal Vorbak physically destroyed the gellar field protecting the Emperor's lab which allowed the Chaos gods to scatter the primarchs throughout the galaxy. By the time that happened there wasn't anything the Emperor could do. If the gods took Horus back before this event even they could take anything they wanted and then be whisked away again just like Argel Tal. And yes... the time paradox... haha, let the 'chaos' ensue!!!





MEQinc said:


> Or, and equally valid, they simply symbolicly removed their own resistance to the influence of Chaos.
> 
> In Horus' vision (going by your interpretation of 'vision as fact') the Emperor is shown being able to respond and choosing not to. Doubtless he would have if he had not believed this course of action to be beneficial.
> 
> Further there are paradoxes present in Horus' and Argel Tal's visions that are really only possible if they didn't happen. Horus for example meets individuals who will latter not recognize him, he fights and kills Custodes (IIRC) of which no mention is ever made. The Emperor *sees him* and then latter refuses to accept that he is a traitor? It makes very little sense.


Exactly what MEQinc said. There is absoloutely no proof that the visions actually happened. I've always seen them, and always will see them unless official stated otherwise as just more manipulations courtesy of the gods, just another tool to turn them against the Emperor. I have a hard time with just how easily and readily Horus and Argel Tal accept them as the truth without seemingly begininng to question whether its just a trick by the gods, same goes to alot of the readers. And like MEQinc said, how to people explain away Valdor and the other Custodes and indeed the Emperor himself seeing Horus.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

"Hey, I was just thinking- wouldn't it make more sense for Horus to just bomb the shit out of Terra until there was nothing left?"

"Well, yeah."

"...So why didn't he? He's supposed to be a brilliant commander who almost overthrew the Imperium."

"Exactly- almost. Because if Horus applied basic logic, then it would inconvenience the plot..."

"...And inconvience sales when the Imperium, Space Marines and Guard no longer exist?"

"Exactly!"

*MEANWHILE, AT GW:*


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I... don't necessarily agree with C'Tan's reasoning... but I must give him rep! :biggrin:

Cheers, brother!
P.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I wouldn't even call it reasoning, truthfully- but thank you nonetheless! Fluff is one of those things I must enjoy in small doses or else I start to get scared by how much I can debate fictional stuff. You'd think since I was a Chaos fan I might have a smidgen of insight, but I don't. I just know I like Space Marine zombies with toughness 5.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Don't forget Lorgar's vision of the new Imperium was one where they worked side by side with the gods, destroying the home world of the entire race would be against the vision of a united Imperium where men and women praise gods who are very much real.


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