# Does Outcast Dead make the Emperor more competent or less?



## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

As everyone is aware, the Emperor has some serious competency problems. For a Godlike transcendental being with cosmic power levels, he's pretty bad at fixing _awful, obvious problems._

So with Outcast Dead we are more or less told that the E actually has a fairly detailed bit of foreknowledge of how the HH is going to end up. He knows he's going to be horribly mangled by Horus.

To me, this seems to indicate that the Emperor is even more incompetent than we normally believe. We've always had the emergency parachute of "the Emperor couldn't just kill Horus. He had to confront him to see if he could be turned good again." That whole thing. But now, nope - he knows what's up. So for god's sake why doesn't he take more serious steps to fix the problem? Like, reaching out across the galaxy with his voluminous mind and squashing the traitor primarchs like bubble wrap? 

Alternately, perhaps he is more competent than we normally believe. Maybe there's some sort of the-universe-makes-it-impossible-to-stop-stuff effect at work here, and the E knows it. 

I dunno. Outcast Dead _seems_ to have delivered us an important message, but I'm not really sure what it is. What do you guys think?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Emperor says a quote that I'll paraphrase. It basically goes "You can be omnipotent or omniscient, but not both at the same time". The Big E implies he's omniscient, sorta. So we can infer he's not omnipotent.

He then goes that sometimes you can't win and the best thing you can do is tie.

That's what I think he did. Assuming he's omniscient, or at least very knowledgeable about possible futures, he did the best he could within his power.

Imagine playing a Chess game with an unlimited number of restarts and take-backs. Going through all the possibilities, though, you realize you can only hope to draw or lose.

So you pick to draw, knowing that it's the best option.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Basically magnus fucks everything up,with the hole in the webway on Terra the 4 chaos gods along with the warp are all trying to grab the earth and cast it into the warp and he is trying to stop them, he is pretty much fighting a numberless horde while simultaneously powering his beacon.
in the book a thousand sons Magnus does say that its in the Emperors power to kill him from half a galaxy away, and to be fair while i love Mcneill he fucked that book up, so i wouldnt really regard it as a proper source.
The emperor may have felt that this was the best backup plan now that magnus screwed everything, theres still a chance that things will get sorted out after the 41st millenium,maybe he saw something that even Tzeench and his fate-weaver couldn't.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> in the book a thousand sons Magnus does say that its in the Emperors power to kill him from half a galaxy away, and to be fair while i love Mcneill he fucked that book up, so i wouldnt really regard it as a proper source.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that's Ahriman referring to Daemon Magnus.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

I have to go with the theory that the Emperor saw that he could either lose or tie, and choosing to tie. If he was going down, he would bring horus with him and give the Imperium a fighting chance at recovering. Also, being that he's omniscient, maybe he saw something in the grander picture that works out better for him having been struck down and it just haven't been revealed yet. Perhaps leaving his physical body allows the Emperor to actually become a warp entity rivaling those of Chaos.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

I haven't read the book. And I have only read a few of the Horus Heresy books. So this is from what I have read so far.

But what if this:

Erebus tells Horus that the Emperor left the Great Crusade to further his own Ascension to become a God. And maybe this is the truth.

The Emperor knows that in order to battle Chaos Humanity is more in the need of spiritual Faith and the Emperor's psychic powers. He has foreseen the betrayal by Horus, their fight, and his doom to become a living corpse in the Golden Throne.

Therefore he knows what to do. He needs to leave Horus and the great Crusade, sow the seeds of doubt in the Warmaster, and therefore sacrifice his closest son, and some of his other sons to Chaos.

He knew about the Lectio Divinatus, and that he needed to sacrifice himself to further Mankinds Faith in him. And by doing this, ending up in the Golden Throne he became a God.

So what Erebus told Horus was a self-fulfilling prophecy since the Emperor knew that he had to make this sacrifice to be able to save Humanity from Chaos.

And finally... The Emperor did foresee the Horus Heresy. And he did what was best for Mankind. Not what was best for his own physical body. He is still there, in spirit, fighting Chaos. In the meantime, Humanity has got a Faith to stand by in order to fight Chaos. 

Maybe the Emperor had foreseen something even worse, had he not sacrificed Horus and the other Primarchs.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The problem with that theory, Caratacos, is that Collected Visions (which came out before the Heresy series and which many are following pretty well) states the Emperor's intentions in regards to chaos and the warp.

Faith/superstition fuel the chaos gods and the warp, taking that away served to weaken it. Combine that with the Emperors work on using the webway, thus ridding humanity of warp travel, and the big guy really isn't having all that much to do with faith and the like.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I am personally still undecided when it comes to _The Outcast Dead_. I am yet to re-read it, but I don't recall taking what the Emperor said to Kai simply as: _"I am going to sacrifice myself and end up on the Golden Throne."_ The Emperor does not _know_ the future, in fact not even Tzeentch or Kairos _know_ the future. We were always led to believe that the Dark Gods clouded the Emperor's prescience during the Heresy, that and the natural block of the _shadow point_ ensured that the Emperor couldn't have reliably predicted the war's outcome anyway.



Lost&Damned said:


> in the book a thousand sons Magnus does say that its in the Emperors power to kill him from half a galaxy away


As _Chompy_ said - if you're referring to the prologue - that's Ahriman talking about Daemon Magnus.



Cowbellicus said:


> As everyone is aware, the Emperor has some serious competency problems. For a Godlike transcendental being with cosmic power levels, he's pretty bad at fixing _awful, obvious problems._


I refute that.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm somewhat aligned to Child-of-the-Emperor here.

One of the major problems with _The Outcast Dead_, strictly in my opinion, is that it's *really bad*. 

Predestination is a wonderful thing to muse on, but Graham bungled it here in my esteem. Like CotE, I haven't re-read the book (it'll be up after PB, _Aurelian_ and ATS), but it did leave the strong impression that the Emperor knew his game was up when he confronts Horus...and that confronting Horus is the only way to end it.

There could be variation in who goes where and when, but the only way it all ends is the Emperor facing Horus directly, the only way that confrontation ends is with the Emperor...spent.

I don't like that, personally. Well, I don't mind it, but I don't like the look presented in TOD. Hell, I didn't like much presented in TOD; I could be biased.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I believe that, that part of The Outcast Dead, in fact, reinforces the competency of the Emperor. He was shown a vision of the future, of the true future -- not of some potential or some possibility. As is often the problem with premonitions, as Atharva states, its hard to tell the potential futures from the actual future.

The vision gifted to Kai by Sarashina was, in fact, the absolute truth -- or so the book led me to believe. Atharva speaks of this clearly by stating that if any army knew that it simply could not be defeated, no matter what, imagine its morale and its potential. Imagine that in reverse and you can see why he wanted that knowledge. 

If Atharva can grasp this in clarity than so too can the Emperor. He didn't just like into a potential future, he saw the actual deal. He saw himself mangled by Horus, he saw what would happen to his Imperium. He saw it all in vivid detail -- and still he marched defiantly to his own damnation. 

To me, this speaks of absolute courage and great character. To know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no matter what you, or your gene-forged sons do, you will, at best, bring the confrontation to a tie. Knowing that and knowing fully what kind of pain you will bring down upon your people and yourself you stilll willingly walk that path knowing, or at least believing, that the alternative is death and horror -- you're the closest thing a mortal can be to a god.

Also, take this into account. The Emperor is but a mortal, he might be an extremely powerful almost god-like mortal but he is ultimately a mortal. This one mortal, this one bit of flesh in a sea of flesh, stood against the gods themselves and spit in their collective eye. He tricked them into giving him their knowledge (or so I've been led to believe), he forged the most powerful civilization that Humanity had ever known. He wrought forth mighty superhuman legions to conquor the galaxy and he gave them demi-god commanders to lead them.

When all his machinations came crashing to ashes around him due to his traitorous sons. When the gods themsleves united to bring him down. He did not loose, he was not defeated. He fought four beings, ultimately vastly more powerful and actually omnipotent with intelligence that spans beyond the Emperor's lifespan, to a draw. No other mortal could have done that.

We are trying to compare a single mortal, however powerful, to the might of FOUR omnipotent, unkillable, unbeatable chaos GODS. A draw, to me, is pretty fucking impressive.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with the above post. The hero is a drama is always expected to win, to destroy the bad guy, to fix all that went wrong. Reality is rarely so generous. I haven't read the Outcast Dead either but to me the idea that Big E knew what was going to happen and still marched into it (like Sanguinus is supposed to have done as well) and let himself be interred on the throne in constant pain for the survival of humanity is a truly amazing act of both courage and competency. He is trusting humans with their own future while expending himself every day to allow that to happen. I have no proof of this idea but what would have changed if the Emperor had known this all along? As mentioned above, if the only two choices are losing and drawing then only a fool would choose to loose. Perhaps this is the case, that he knew that it would all come crashing down (maybe not how or when or even who would strike him down) and yet this would be better for the WHOLE of humanity than any other option. In this light every "bad decision" could very well be him playing the part he was meant to to ensure the best possible future.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

hmm this is funny. I always thought the emperor was "incompetent" because he was managing over a project so vast that it's mind boggling to even begin to conceive.

The obvious problems don't seem so obvious when your stomping out religion, making a galaxy spanning empire, building an artificial gateway into a energy based dimension to use for transportation, and directing the beacon that directs all interstellar travel.

Or at least they don't to me.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

darkreever said:


> The problem with that theory, Caratacos, is that Collected Visions (which came out before the Heresy series and which many are following pretty well) states the Emperor's intentions in regards to chaos and the warp.
> 
> Faith/superstition fuel the chaos gods and the warp, taking that away served to weaken it. Combine that with the Emperors work on using the webway, thus ridding humanity of warp travel, and the big guy really isn't having all that much to do with faith and the like.


Ah okay. I have a lot of reading to catch up with. Thanks =)


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

BlackGuard said:


> Also, take this into account. The Emperor is but a mortal, he might be an extremely powerful almost god-like mortal but he is ultimately a mortal. This one mortal, this one bit of flesh in a sea of flesh, stood against the gods themselves and spit in their collective eye. He tricked them into giving him their knowledge (or so I've been led to believe), he forged the most powerful civilization that Humanity had ever known. He wrought forth mighty superhuman legions to conquor the galaxy and he gave them demi-god commanders to lead them.
> 
> When all his machinations came crashing to ashes around him due to his traitorous sons. When the gods themsleves united to bring him down. He did not loose, he was not defeated. He fought four beings, ultimately vastly more powerful and actually omnipotent with intelligence that spans beyond the Emperor's lifespan, to a draw. No other mortal could have done that.
> 
> We are trying to compare a single mortal, however powerful, to the might of FOUR omnipotent, unkillable, unbeatable chaos GODS. A draw, to me, is pretty fucking impressive.


I'd broadly disagree here: Malcador is mortal. The Emperor is...not. Not necessarily.

His background, both the reincarnating shamans, and the nature of the New Man from which he's derived, is solidly about immortality.

So whilst everything else he does is rather cool, it's not fair to count him as 'mortal'. He might not be a god as per the Chaos Gods or the C'tan, but he's almost certainly beyond mortal.

The other 'candidates' for being not-mortal in the Horus Heresy note this pretty much explicitly.

Beyond that though, yeah: the Emperor did some pretty impressive stuff. But TOD still muddles things, in my esteem, rather than adding insight to them.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> In this light every "bad decision" could very well be him playing the part he was meant to to ensure the best possible future.


Given that without those 'bad decisions' (which I will agree are largely due to oversight, rather than bad judgement) the Heresy would never have happened on the scale or suddenness, or with the success, that it did, I do not accept your position. I refuse to accept that 40k is the best possible future for humanity, I think that goes against the very principles of the games creation. 

Equally I don't think the Emperor did draw. In the fight against Horus, he sacrificed himself to ensure victory but in the fight against the Gods, he lost. There's no other way around it, _Legion _shows us very clearly that 40k is the best outcome for the Gods, not for humanity. The Imperium that stands in 40k owes more to the vision of Lorgar than it does to that of the Emperor.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Well, Chaoses vision was basically an eye of terror that spanned the entire galaxy (so in that sense they did fail, but nevertheless gained an even stronger foothold in the material realm) , i think he couldnt see much of the future at all and couldnt really predict every facet of the future, i mean hell neither can tzeentch, maybe he saw several thousand possible futures and decided that it wasnt the best, but the one he could sort of.....trust to end the way he wanted, or atleast the one where he could change it and make it more malleable for his future plans.

And even if Horus and the others betrayed him, the ONLY point that mattered, that made the heresy pale in comparison was what Magnus did, if Magnus hadnt stormed into the palace the treachery would have been immaterial, the webway finished the emperor able to PERSONALLY fight against all the traitors, the loyalist able to deploy wherever they wanted almost instantaneously, Horus's betrayl was nothing to what Magnus did, if it wasnt for magnus, sure, the imperium would have suffered but it would have healed and grown faster than ever before.

(not sure if what i wrote makes sense tbh)


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Given that without those 'bad decisions' (which I will agree are largely due to oversight, rather than bad judgement) the Heresy would never have happened on the scale or suddenness, or with the success, that it did, I do not accept your position. I refuse to accept that 40k is the best possible future for humanity, I think that goes against the very principles of the games creation.
> 
> Equally I don't think the Emperor did draw. In the fight against Horus, he sacrificed himself to ensure victory but in the fight against the Gods, he lost. There's no other way around it, _Legion _shows us very clearly that 40k is the best outcome for the Gods, not for humanity. The Imperium that stands in 40k owes more to the vision of Lorgar than it does to that of the Emperor.


Actually, in my opinion, it does go very well with the games-concept. How much more grim dark could the galaxy be if its current state IS as good as Humanity could have hoped for? The Imperium is a vast, uncaring machine which grinds down its own people in blind faith and madness. In my opinion the ultimate fate of the Imperium is for it to collapse and bring untold suffering and cataclyism to Mankind -- maybe even extinction and the birth of a new Chaos God.

To think that, that was the best possible future for Humanity does seem to go with the game's concepts.

The Xeno Kabal is, at best, good at premonition. Their verison of the future is only correct, to us, because we know what happens in the end. The Emperor might have come across the vision and dismissed it, along with the thousands upon thousands he likely saw of Humanity's future.

Either way the point remains -- the Emperor is not incompetent. He might have placed too much trust in his superhuman Astartes and his post-human Primarchs -- but then, if you forged the twenty most powerful, most intelligent, and supposedly most superior beings in the Universe -- you'd expect them to have a little thicker skin and a tougher spine than the lot we have been shown.


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

No kidding. If I'm the Emperor, right around now I'm thinking "F this Astartes crap" and am dusting off my copy of "Cooking Large Numbers of Custodians for Dummies".


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> Well, Chaoses vision was basically an eye of terror that spanned the entire galaxy (so in that sense they did fail, but nevertheless gained an even stronger foothold in the material realm)


I'm sorry, but where are you getting this from?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Codex or maybe the collected visions, might be an ooold one, i dunno i never check.
Makes sense aswell really, the Immaterial and material become one, demons are free to move around and there is still plenty of emotion.


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