# Chaos term lord or demon prince for 6th edition



## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey guys, so I am pretty new to 40k. I am still trying to wrap my head around 6th edition. 

So, my question is this, if power weapons are ap 3 would it not be better to have a term lord with his 2+ armor save? I know the dp has a lot going for himself but I would think the term lord is better. 

If so, how do I deck out the lord? He will either deep strike or roll with a term squad in a land raider.

As for my army I play word bearers.

Thanks guys, I do apologize in advance if I am wrong just here to learn.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

It depends what you want. A terminator Lord is a much better unit in 6th than in 5th, and if you're going to use a land raider with a close combat unit inside, he's a good buy. 

A chaos marine daemon prince, however, still fills the same niche it always has, taking out vehicles, harassing small enemy units, and using psychic powers (which got better thanks to the new ones in the 6th edition rulebook). They'd be even better if they counted as flying monstrous creatures when given wings, but for now they just count as jump, which is BS, since the Chaos Daemon princes are flying monstrous creatures. We'll just have to wait for a new errata to see.

Anyway, it all depends on what you want and need, but whereas in 5th edition a Sorcerer was definitely a better choice than a Lord, a Lord in 6th edition is a fine choice.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

mynameisgrax said:


> It depends what you want. A terminator Lord is a much better unit in 6th than in 5th, and if you're going to use a land raider with a close combat unit inside, he's a good buy.
> 
> A chaos marine daemon prince, however, still fills the same niche it always has, taking out vehicles, harassing small enemy units, and using psychic powers (which got better thanks to the new ones in the 6th edition rulebook). They'd be even better if they counted as flying monstrous creatures when given wings, but for now they just count as jump, which is BS, since the Chaos Daemon princes are flying monstrous creatures. We'll just have to wait for a new errata to see.
> 
> Anyway, it all depends on what you want and need, but whereas in 5th edition a Sorcerer was definitely a better choice than a Lord, a Lord in 6th edition is a fine choice.


I disagree. I think the terminator lord is not good compared to the terminator sorcerer.

As far as a daemon prince trading his 1 power for one from the new codex, I presume you are talking biomancy? Or do you just think psychic shriek would be the best.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Daemon Princes don't have access to Biomancy. I always roll on Telepathy, because it has a 'usable' Primaris compared to 'bad' for Assail and 'nothing special' for Pyromancy, and Terrify is awesomely awesome and better than you. I've made Avatars and Wraithguard flee with this thing.

I say Daemon Prince, all day every day. The enhanced stats for just 10pts are invaluable, the enhanced mobility from Wings is fantastic, and a Psychic Power is at worst, a nice shooting attack and at best, an unholy disruption mechanic (if you take Mark of Tzeentch and get Hallucination).

However, if you just want HQ choices, take twin Sorcerors with Lash. They're still probably the best option, despite GWs slow but sure nerfing of Lash (first a roll to hit, now a Deny the Witch).

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

...daemon princes can't take biomancy. Besides tzeentch princes can get access to the 2 broken telepathy powers on a good roll. Invisibility can be a game winner all its self in objective games.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> broken telepathy powers


What 'broken powers'? No powers are broken.

ERMUHGURD HULLUCCINURTION!! is silly. There's a counter to it. There's counters to Invisibility; like all the people who get to roll on Divination in any great weight, Sternguard, Flamers (you know, those weapons that loads of people are taking because of the buff to them with Wall of Death and the new viability of infantry), Barrage weapons (which everyone's saying are awesome because they snipe dudes), etc.

Oh yeah, and SitW, and RoW, and Runic Weapons, and Gloom Prisms, and combat.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Obviously you haven't tried to shift a CC unit off a objective with invisibility before that 2+ cover is a bitch. I will agree that hallucination is situational at best as some units can just ignore it. 

Mind you both those powers require 2 warp charges so they damn well better be game changes. In fact I am still disappointed with 70% of all the powers when you factor in psychic defenses, I mean really one of the powers is a slightly better flamer for fu*& sakes.


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## crisissuitguy (Jan 8, 2010)

rulebook). They'd be even better if they counted as flying monstrous creatures when given wings said:


> well if I can guess, the only reason is because with daemons it's a 60pt. upgrade vs. the marines 20pt. for the same wings


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

crisissuitguy said:


> well if I can guess, the only reason is because with daemons it's a 60pt. upgrade vs. the marines 20pt. for the same wings


shouldn't the solution be to make the daemon's prince not suck instead of making the CSM one it's own special type of unit? They had the golden opportunity to change the daemon prince to not suck so much balls with that update in white dwarf but they decided not to.

It would have been nice if they brought the daemon princes in line with each other and stopped the idiotic 'jump' idea. What is wrong with the daemon princes wings? Are they just for show? Is a daemon prince like a chicken or a turkey or something and can't really fly?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Stop shitting yourself about Invisibility and Hallucination. They're Warp Charge 2, so you'll rarely ever come across them.
Also, I'm surprised people are overlooking Pyromancy for their favourite Daemon Prince. Telepathy is only so good, while you can't really get a bad roll (albeit maybe situational) with Pyromancy.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Pyromancy has a lot of meh powers and a few decent ones, but nothing worth taking a lv2 on. However its the safest bet as telepathy is best used with a lv2 which are damn expensive for CSM's. Also telepathy is a lot more hit and miss then pyromancy with some powers being next to useless depending on the enemy ect. So people don't talk about it because its just the safest bet, and most of the powers are weaker then lash or winds of chaos anyways.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

I'd say Daemon Prince because they look cooler. They're scarier and perform a role that a Chaos Lord couldn't. The unit he would have accompanied can kill things; sure, he could have killed better with them, but as a DP he fills a different battlefield role.

A big scary monstrous creature has a psychological effect. A Chaos Lord won't necessarily command that same fear.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Ok, you have a term lord with twin lighting claws vs a Demon Prince? I really think that 2+ armor save is almost ridiculous. 

I am not sure about all of these physic powers but the lord is cheaper and can be in a unit or in a Landraider for extra survivability. The demon prince can be shot down while he is flying. And can be targeted at all times unless being obstructed from terrain.

I know the DP stats are better but I feel like you can create a lord for any situation. Plus, going against Grey Knights, the lord is not consider a demon so you take away some of their special rules.

These are just my thoughts.



Lord Commander Solus said:


> I'd say Daemon Prince because they look cooler. They're scarier and perform a role that a Chaos Lord couldn't. The unit he would have accompanied can kill things; sure, he could have killed better with them, but as a DP he fills a different battlefield role.
> 
> A big scary monstrous creature has a psychological effect. A Chaos Lord won't necessarily command that same fear.


Ok, I give you that a huge model by default is scarier, however a group of terms with a term lord still causes fear. I get that there are situations where one is better then the other but a chaos lord is still a chaos lord and will always be a bad ass. 

Now with challenges, I can see a whole new role that a term lord can play. No, squad will stand a chance.

FOR CHAOS!!!!!!!


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

chaoslovechild said:


> Ok, you have a term lord with twin lighting claws vs a Demon Prince? I really think that 2+ armor save is almost ridiculous.


 But not with Smash making them ID the tiny Lord. Let's work this out:
Lord: 4 attacks, 2 hit, .67 wound first time, around 1.33 would wound total, which equals one wound.
Prince (Smashing): 2 attacks, 1.33 hit, 1.165 wound, 0.835 unsaved wounds which means splat. 
Prince is preferable.the only thing going againts them is larger profile and no IC.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Archaon18 said:


> But not with Smash making them ID the tiny Lord. Let's work this out:
> Lord: 4 attacks, 2 hit, .67 wound first time, around 1.33 would wound total, which equals one wound.
> Prince (Smashing): 2 attacks, 1.33 hit, 1.165 wound, 0.835 unsaved wounds which means splat.
> Prince is preferable.the only thing going againts them is larger profile and no IC.


As mentioned in my first post I am still learning this game. I did not realize that "smash" is AP 2 in close combat. I thank you so much for clearing this up for me.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> It would have been nice if they brought the daemon princes in line with each other and stopped the idiotic 'jump' idea. What is wrong with the daemon princes wings? Are they just for show? Is a daemon prince like a chicken or a turkey or something and can't really fly?


CD princes generally pay alot more for much needed upgrades and such end up costing alot more. They're also different force org slots. The question is will princes be FMC in the new chaos dex.



> Now with challenges, I can see a whole new role that a term lord can play. No, squad will stand a chance.


Daemon princes are characters as well, and not many characters are willing to gamble against str10/ap2.

Lords have their uses, but comparing battlefield effectiveness of a termie lord/retinue/landraider delivery system vs. a daemon prince thats a fraction of that cost isn't a good way to look at it.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Wow, look at all those new 6th edition powers I can give my sorcerer/daemon prince! Which ever shall I choose....

I choose lash.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

chaoslovechild said:


> The demon prince can be shot down while he is flying.


Assuming you meant the risk of taking damage from Grounding, Codex CSM Daemon Princes cannot fly; if they have wings they are Jump Monstrous Creatures.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Ravner298 said:


> CD princes generally pay alot more for much needed upgrades and such end up costing alot more. They're also different force org slots. The question is will princes be FMC in the new chaos dex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your right however, I can take my Sergent/Champion and now you must challenge him because my lord is in a group. After you kill my Sergent/Champion now my squad and lord gets to beat you down.

I was referring the landraider and group as a method to protect the lord. I understand this is a lot of points but it still can be effective. It is my understanding for speaking with some gamers at my LGS that their not sure what is a standard list right now. They still are not sure on how landraiders will work. 

I admit that my mindset can still be coming from past editions, so I will see how things pan out.



Dave T Hobbit said:


> Assuming you meant the risk of taking damage from Grounding, Codex CSM Daemon Princes cannot fly; if they have wings they are Jump Monstrous Creatures.


Thank you for clearing this up.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

chaoslovechild said:


> After you kill my Sergent/Champion now my squad and lord gets to beat you down.


The unit and Lord do not both get to attack me: my character is protected fork everyone until the end of that round by the challenge with the sergeant; at the start of the next turn's close combat I get to challenge as there is not an ongoing challenge so either your Lord hides or the challenge protects me from the unit.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

I thought after that challenge my squad since in combat gets to attack? So, if the DP kills my champion doesn't my lord and squad fight back?



Dave T Hobbit said:


> The unit and Lord do not both get to attack me: my character is protected fork everyone until the end of that round by the challenge with the sergeant; at the start of the next turn's close combat I get to challenge as there is not an ongoing challenge so either your Lord hides or the challenge protects me from the unit.


Disregard my last post. 

lol, Thanks


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> The unit and Lord do not both get to attack me: my character is protected fork everyone until the end of that round by the challenge with the sergeant; at the start of the next turn's close combat I get to challenge as there is not an ongoing challenge so either your Lord hides or the challenge protects me from the unit.


This. It's best to just pretend they're in a completely different combat. While throwing a sarg into the meatgrinder would buy you a little time, it still won't stop the DP from challenging the lord next turn and insta-gibbing him. Point for point I still think the DP is a better buy because its tough, mobile and scarier than ever. I still woulnd't use BRB powers over lash however, at least until the new dex knocks it down to pavene status.

I know what you mean by being confused on a 'standard' list. I've been playing around with all sorts of combinations that were complete shit in 5th and nothing seems to be bad in all honesty. If you're set on using a lord (with possible retinue and LR) I highly recommend typhus. He's a monster in 6th.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks for your response. I do have a question about his retinue, how would you out fit them? I was thinking power weapons and just sending them into the fray.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Depends. A regular lord/kharne I'd just get some zerkers (1 champ with PF) and toss them into a LR. Typhus and abby, I recommend termies (mix of power sword/axe, 1 CF) in a LR.

Sadly zerkers aren't what they used to be. At least for another month or two.


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## chaoslovechild (Jul 16, 2012)

Well, here is my dilemma, I play word bearers and would like to keep it just wb's. I also would like to run terminators. I guess I can walk them up the table with the lord?

Plus, I hate berserkers


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

chaoslovechild said:


> I also would like to run terminators. I guess I can walk them up the table with the lord?


Or Deep Strike them


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Some advantages of the lord:

2+ save, very nice these days, against many targets the lord is tougher to take down than the prince

can join a unit and run point for them, shifting AP2 or better hits onto his squad and tanking the rest

of course, the sorcerer can do those things as well. But the lord does have a couple advantages on the sorcerer, namely:

He's fearless, unlike the sorcerer, and confers that fearlessness to units he joins

He can take a daemon weapon, power fist, or pair lightning claws for increased killiness in melee over the sorcerer's force weapon

He can take the MoTz for a 4++ save at reduced cost compared to the sorcerer, since he's not paying for an extra psyker level.


All in all, I think the lord is still the least effective of the three HQ options, but he's a lot more viable than he used to be. And things are likely to change further when the new book hits.


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