# wayland games returing all their finecast



## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

*wayland games returning all their finecast*

http://www.facebook.com/notes/waylandgames/citadel-finecast-announcement/211383635565876

so, it seems wayland isnt happy with the quality of finecast either. they have cancled all finecast orders not yet dispatched and will be returning al their stock to gw. i lol'd

to be fair, i support this desicion, they dont want to sell a sub par items and i respect that


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

very good buisness sense , if somethings not fit for purpose it should be returned .


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

lol good old Failcast. Good on Wayland for sending the stuff back instead of selling it to unsuspecting customers.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Heh, I was down at Warhammer World yesterday buying some FW kit. They were extoling the virtues of Finecast to me until I told them I thought it was poor quality...the sales guy gave up after that. 

I did look at a Tau Ethereal and considered buying it for a few moments...I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Models that are bulky with no thin extremeties like swords or staff will probably be ok, but on every Ethereal I looked at his staff was really warped. Granted it can be heated and bent back into shape but it makes me worry how resilient the model will be over time.

All the FW kit I buy is bulky too. I only ever bought one FW miniature figure - the Titan Techpriest and his extremeties were reallllllly flimsy...no good for regular gaming. 

The properties of resin make it great for detail and large pieces but not that good for thin, unsupported components. Maybe a better route would be for GW to bring out accessory sprues in plastic and model bodies in resin.

Think of the price hike opportunities. :wink:


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

I think this only covers the current tranche of finecast models, I presume that GW have not yet put sufficient quality checks in place for the products.

Certainly not what GW could have hoped for, but it will put an interesting issue for the independant retailer as GWs policy of 'if its busted we replace it' for their own retailers means they accept a certain level of failed product. I wonder how they will handle 3rd party sellers, as the incurred costs of defective product is much higher as they will most likely have to return the product rather than just have GW replace at cost or issue a credit note.

I can't see either side budging on it either as GW won't want to put the quality control in if they haven't budgeted for it and 3rd party sellers aren't going to want to put in checks on reciept for defects.. watch this space I guess.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

just proves how a stupid Maneuver can easily backfire. Finecast was a stupid maneuver with all the issues, ontop of a price raise, which really had alot of people in arms about it all


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Hrmm. Looking at the pictures, some minor stuff and some definite problems. As everything is still in the packaging, it's not even certain they caught everything.


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## Butcher001 (Jun 13, 2011)

Good Job Wayland, I bought a Lord Comissar that didn't have apparent flaws, but know of friends buying real shit for gold.

Hope GW change his mind and think in his customers.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

What the betting the GW has a policy of sending Wayland all it miscasts...


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow that's alot of miscasts.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Doesn't Svartmetall work in the casting department at GW? He would be able to give a better picture of how things are going for them with the new process.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Good on wayland. 

To be fair, GW should _never_ have released finecast this early. The amount of poor quality casts out there is baffling. They should have spent another 6 months on development until they had the quality control under control!


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

With so many Miscasts, they're lucky they haven't been sucked into the Realm of Chaos yet!

/tumbleweed.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> Doesn't Svartmetall work in the casting department at GW? He would be able to give a better picture of how things are going for them with the new process.


I did until last week; on Monday I start in the mould room, actually making the moulds from which the resin & metal models are made. All I can say really is what I said in...er...another thread, can't remember which one right now...which is that we know about the issues and working on them. Which I know sounds like the worst kind of content-free generic reassurance, but is the actual literal truth in this case. 

Case in point: I saw some of the very first FC Raptors, and I could see there were issues with them. I ended up buying a box of Raptors a week or two back since I'd been casting more - which had been fine, if you'll pardon the expression - and having finally seen the models in the flesh had liked them enough to want to get some. When I took them home there were miscasts which I recognised from the first batch, in terms of where they were on the models, so I took them back after a delay caused by general busy-ness. The replacement Raptors were from a new batch, were fine, and are now sitting on my shelf waiting to be Nurglified. At some point... 

So. Did the early FC batches have issues? Yes, definitely. Did we realise things weren't as they should be, and get to working on solving those issues? Equally yes, definitely. The box of FC Plague Marines I bought on my birthday were perfect (and I saw the early batches of Nurgle's Finest, which...weren't). Hell, I wouldn't have put my money where my mouth is and bought them if I'd thought there would be insurmountable (read: couldn't be solved by just taking them back to the store for a replacement with newer, better ones) quality issues. New QC measures have been in place for the last 3-4 weeks or so and they are having a real effect; bear in mind that the unavoidable timeline of production -> stock -> distribution -> store stock means it takes several weeks for improvements on the casting room floor to filter out to the world at large. 

Now all I can give you is my own firsthand experience & opinion, and it's up to you whether you decide to take my word for it or not - I know that to 99% of people reading this I'm a bunch of pixels, and it being the internet I could be hiding behind a veneer of niceness and actually be a total arsehole IRL. I may be an employee of GW but I don't speak in any official capacity for them, and I've seen what's going in the bins on the floor and things really, genuinely are heading in the right direction.


hth


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

those of us who are older members of the site, I think we can safely say you are more genuine, then, say someone whos payed to give us false hope, or, someone whos just joined the site to tell us this information, Svartmetall


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> those of us who are older members of the site, I think we can safely say you are more genuine, then, say someone whos payed to give us false hope, or, someone whos just joined the site to tell us this information, Svartmetall


_*so that's £10 in the usual place, right?*_


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> _*so that's £10 in the usual place, right?*_


YUP! XD lmao


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

All sounds good Svart, I presume with Waylands currently very heavy order load they are likely sifting through the first wave.

If as you say, new QC efforts are in place and problem solving is being done then there really shouldn't be a future problem.

From the GW side I would think they are pretty pissed that Wayland came out with this public statement, I wonder how much talking was done.

From a Wayland side I would think they are pretty pissed that the first tranche of models wasn't up to the expected and antipated standard.

But overall, if the informed and reliable Svart is putting his £££ into the product it can't all be bad. I would imagine we will see the crap move through the system then the refined product will turn up, I supose it is tale of how hard it can often be to put a new process into mass production - a tale I know well from my own line of work.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Bubblematrix said:


> All sounds good Svart, I presume with Waylands currently very heavy order load they are likely sifting through the first wave.
> 
> If as you say, new QC efforts are in place and problem solving is being done then there really shouldn't be a future problem.
> 
> ...


so hes paying you £10 in the usual place too eh bubble? XD lmao


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Of course..

Svart do you want the GW-hater or GW fanboi g-string this time?


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

See...it's not what you know, it's who you know...:grin:


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## baron_sathonyx (Jun 19, 2011)

the only problem i have with finecast at the moment is not the holes or the warping, its the kits with very thin parts such as urien rakarth where i opened up the blister to find snapped parts and found when gettin them off of the sprue the broke. i persoanlly dont know if anything can be changed about that or not though.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

baron_sathonyx said:


> the only problem i have with finecast at the moment is not the holes or the warping, its the kits with very thin parts such as urien rakarth where i opened up the blister to find snapped parts and found when gettin them off of the sprue the broke. i persoanlly dont know if anything can be changed about that or not though.


That's my biggest worry with them too, there is just not enough rigidity in thin components. On the plus side, the Tau Ethereal I was going to buy in Finecast yesterday but shied away from, I picked up in metal today on ebay for £2 odd. :biggrin:


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

This entire issue is something that I'm on the fence about, I kind of figured they wouldn't be perfect when they came out. Generally when your switching a medium like this there are going to be some issues no matter how much you test it, there are always thing you don't plan for that can go wrong. 

I also have faith in GW and that they will make this right, no matter how much you argue the subject you cannot debate, they do have some of the highest quality miniatures in the world. Yes there are issues with the first batch but like Svart has said and from what I have seen from more recent batches they are doing something about it.

I do think Wayland was in the right, good on them for taking such a huge step, I can't imagine how much stock they have to send back now or even how GW is going to receive it but I guess we will see.


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## baron_sathonyx (Jun 19, 2011)

well i just orderd the metal urien for £3 so at least ill have him still dont know what im going to do with the situation of needing 3 humonculi =/


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, I wanted to order Coteaz and wasn't sure... So I decided to walk in my FLGS. The manager told me to forget about it: he coulcn't get any FC models as they were all BO. So, I asked my friend who works downtown to go to the GW store. They told him I should order throught the website, as Coteaz was too popular and they couldn't get enough!?

Now, I'm not sure I want to order blindly... arg...

Phil


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

There does appear to be a supply and demand issue at the moment. If you look on GW's website it does actually state 'Due to high demand, each Citadel Finecast product is limited to 3 three per customer.' The statement only appears if you click on a FC model to read it's details.

Would be interesting to know whether this is just being applied to the website or to the outlets as well.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

With the prices they charge for this crap these really are unnacceptable faults. Wayland did the right thing. Citadel Failcast.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Very compelling move from Wayland, hopefully this gets GW to crack down on the miscasts.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

What I posted on their Face Book page.



> OK, not defending GW on this project, they do need to put better QCs into play but several of the items that you have up as fails do not appear to be. A mold line, a miscast on the packaging, hair in the blister, a warped item? This is all stuff we dealt with in the metals and are expected when dealing with models. Major air bubbles and miscasting is a fail, normal items when dealing with miniatures isn't. Next thing you know people are going to start complaining that the models are not coming painted by the 'Eavy Metal teams to their specifications.


A little added something for someone who came in at the last second to say something, if your interested there you go


> @Mantic Games I am glad you are proud that you can ride the coat tails of a company that has been out for 30 years. While you game interests me half the models in your line look worse then the stuff that was put out by Ral Partha, Citadel, Reaper ect 10 years ago. Glad you can produce plastic, most companies and been able to do t hat for over a decade, lets see you spend money to do something that while buggy right now will eventually become a market standard because spincasting is much cheaper then having to produce a plastic mold. Whats the army that has been shown for your new future game? Space Dwarfs, I wonder why and who you are targeting with that (coughsquatscough). I for one hope you stick around for the long haul, each army you have that comes out does look better and better but honestly coming here and gloating like this looks childish.


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## Horacus (Oct 5, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> Now all I can give you is my own firsthand experience & opinion, and it's up to you whether you decide to take my word for it or not - I know that to 99% of people reading this I'm a bunch of pixels, and it being the internet I could be hiding behind a veneer of niceness and actually be a total arsehole IRL. I may be an employee of GW but I don't speak in any official capacity for them, and I've seen what's going in the bins on the floor and things really, genuinely are heading in the right direction.
> 
> 
> hth


Don't worry pal, I trust you. A Death Guard player has to be a good person because you know, papa nurgle is all about love and hugs...and rot and decay. So, I trust you.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Horacus said:


> Don't worry pal, I trust you. A Death Guard player has to be a good person because you know, papa nurgle is all about love and hugs...and rot and decay. So, I trust you.


Yup. Papa Nurgle loves ALL life. Even that flesh eating bacteria that leaves your skeleton looking like butterscotch pudding.

Okay, ESPECIALLY the flesh eating bacteria. But he still has love, right?


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

This is an asshole move from Wayland. Yes the first batch of Finecast (lets not start with the stupid names) had problems - GW bit off more than they could chew by rereleasing 150-something models in one day in a new material. More recent batches however, have been better. They have a handle on the material now, and newer batches are fine (well aside from the odd boring shit like mouldlines and bits that need bending. But hey, that happaned with the metal models too.)

Doing something like this is just really assholeish, and playing into the idiot haters hands.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

IanC said:


> This is an asshole move from Wayland. Yes the first batch of Finecast (lets not start with the stupid names) had problems - GW bit off more than they could chew by rereleasing 150-something models in one day in a new material. More recent batches however, have been better. They have a handle on the material now, and newer batches are fine (well aside from the odd boring shit like mouldlines and bits that need bending. But hey, that happaned with the metal models too.)
> 
> Doing something like this is just really assholeish, and playing into the idiot haters hands.


Ummm....no. It means Wayland (mainly a mail order company) does not want hundreds of returns (especially with its current back log of orders) for a product that got rushed out before it was ready to be sold. GW have let themselves down by releasing a substandard product, raising the price, and telling everyone it was the best thing since Jesus himself.
Whatever criticism you have of G-dub, you can't fault the quality of the product - until now unfortunately.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Wayland are just asking for it arent they?

Its fine to do this in private with GW, but to release a public message to the 'world' is just asking for trouble.

When you couple this up with their 'will still ship anywhere in the world' in contravention of what GW offically say they can do (however they have gotten around this) they are basically just sticking 2 fingers up at GW and asking them to swivel.

Do I think they were wrong to send back the entire batch - no, not if they felt they werent up to scratch.

Do I think they are likely to get an absolute kicking and potentially be removed as a distrbutor of GW products - its looking more and more likely every day.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I would laugh if GW pulled their account with Wayland.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> I would laugh if GW pulled their account with Wayland.


You honestly have to question if wayland think they can do without GW.

The way they are acting is if they are the bigger partner in the process and they can bully GW into letting them do whatever they want.

Last time I checked they werent a bigger business than GW and you have to question how long GW will put up with it.




PS - again, I dont think wayland were wrong to return the products, its just the manner in which everything has been publically done.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Maidel said:


> PS - again, I dont think wayland were wrong to return the products, its just the manner in which everything has been publically done.


Yeah right, what are you like.


What are Wayland meant to do,
say they forgot to order any Failcast Minis?
Or go for the Terribly sorry but we will not be telling you why we can no longer supply the minis line?

Fair play to them. If some thing is substandard then why can't they say so?

GW need to sort this quality issue out and quickly, the main reason they get away with the price they charge is the quality of their product.

If they lose the reputation of their quality it will hurt them more than any price rise.

I really hope that Finecast is a stop gap measure and GW deveop all new minis for plastic from now on.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Viscount Vash said:


> I really hope that Finecast is a stop gap measure and GW deveop all new minis for plastic from now on.


But but but... finecast am bestest mini in world.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Wayland were totally right by doing this publicly. If they hadn't announced it then there would have just been a void of weeks where finecast wasn't available with no reason given. And also, they are well within their rights to return the product if they feel it is below standard, which obviously it is. 

And as to the comments of GW pulling Wayland's trade licence. Yes, that could happen. But at least Wayland has the balls to stand up to GW.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> Yeah right, what are you like.


No no, you misunderstand - its their public announcements about EVERYTHING.

They gave GW a public kicking when they raised prices

They gave GW a public kicking when they stopped them shipping abroad

They have now publically announced this as well.



Mantic also released a public statement when GW put up their prices, but they had something to gain from it - they are a rival minature manufacturer - Wayland arent, they are a distributor of GW (and other companies) products.

For me, it just seems utterly crazy to be publically damming what I would think is your biggest source of business (if GW arent I will willingly be proved wrong on that one).



imm0rtal reaper said:


> And as to the comments of GW pulling Wayland's trade licence. Yes, that could happen. But at least Wayland has the balls to stand up to GW.


Theres a very famous saying - its calle cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Its just all that they seem to be doing, sure they are winning points with the public by standing up to GW like this - but if GW cut them off in reply its highly unlikely to affect GWs bottom line, but Im pretty damn sure it would make a horrid dent in Waylands.


Again - I dont think they are wrong to do the return, and I dont even think that GW would be right to cut them off - Im just saying that from a business perspective they are skating on bleedin thin ice.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

To a point, it is. On the other hand, Wayland is obviously getting products that'll end up costing them money(shipping things worldwide isn't cheap, and you can't be sure they can easily exchange them for better ones at GW... or whether the exchange would be better) as they are returned by dissatisfied customers. Checking every damn model before shipping it isn't really a realistic option either.

That means they can't really sell the line, and on the other hand, they HAVE to carry it. With Wayland publicly shaming GW like this, Wayland both explains to its customers what's going on, why they won't be selling Finecast for a while, and directs the flak for the quality problems at GW. 

Yes, it's likely to further sour their relationship with GW, but selling GW models when half of them might end up returned as having problems is even less productive to Wayland.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Regardless of whether this move is perceived to be right or wrong, Wayland do have a commitment to inform their customers of potential delays in supply and demand. The easiest way to do this is a public statement. There was nothing derogatory or defamatory in the statement, just fact. It is to their credit that they are willing to look after their customers. I don't see the problem.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

I see your point Maidel,
but Wayland have a duty to let their customers know what is happening.

From a business perspective Wayland are Playin the Game, calling it as they see it will strike a chord with there own customers and gain them yet more customers.

People are creatures of habit, Wayland are trying to make themselves peoples supplier of habit.

People are pissed at GWs prices, Wayland are offering a reduced price and are agreeing with the sentiment (Comrades).

Southern hemisphere players are really pissed at GW embargo, Wayland bypass it.

A lot of people are looking into other games, Wayland supply those too.

Wayland are probably going to lose GW distribution anyway, what they are doing by being seen to stand up to them is gaining the admiration of many that feel the same way. Also sympathy if/when GW do cut them off.

I reckon they are hoping to turn the admiration/sympathy into customer loyalty and sales.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> Regardless of whether this move is perceived to be right or wrong, Wayland do have a commitment to inform their customers of potential delays in supply and demand. The easiest way to do this is a public statement. There was nothing derogatory or defamatory in the statement, just fact. It is to their credit that they are willing to look after their customers. I don't see the problem.


Its not just delayed orders.

They have cancelled all orders for finecast, and are refunding everyone.

I know, I ordered one the day they went on the site , so they've never sent out a single finecast due to quality issues.

They had to make a statement to their customers about that, and its obviously costing them money. 

How anyone can possibly make them out to be the bad guys in this is mind boggling.

They didnt make the poor casts, GW did. The problem starts and stops right there.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Viscount Vash said:


> I see your point Maidel,
> but Wayland have a duty to let their customers know what is happening.
> 
> From a business perspective Wayland are Playin the Game, calling it as they see it will strike a chord with there own customers and gain them yet more customers.
> ...


Vash is right here. Wayland are the number one distributor in the UK, and I'd be willing to bet one of the top (or the top) in the world. This course of action will gain them customers. 

I exclusively use them anyway, but if I didn't before, I certainly would now. 

If/when GW cut wayland off, yes they will take a serious hit in sales, but there are a lot of people out there who are jumping ship, and Wayland stock all the lines that these people may be interested in. They might unfortunately have to cut back on staff, or save costs elsewhere, but I think they'll manage to stay afloat even if GW pull the plug.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Balls to stand up and a loss of about 75% of their income LOL. Last laugh on who?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

The main failure is that GW has lost all ethics on the manner, they knew before their release that they had serious QC issues and still went ahead and released a bad product.

What should have been blindingly obvious was GW had an ethical duty to announce a product recall and use eny means possible to get that message out to inform customers,

But their silence on the matter is a damning endictment on GW.

GW and GW alone is at fault here, unfortunately Wayland had to do GW's dirty work for them and will suffer the consequences.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> No no, you misunderstand - its their public announcements about EVERYTHING.


Better this than silence like a certain other company.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Here is what I have an issue with.

They only release a select few pics of their "test"
They did not establish what was a fail, minor fail, major fail
Some of their fails were laughable at least, I could see 3 blisters where it was nothing more then standard modeling stuff.

What was really irritating was Mantic jump in and say they make good plastic, when this was nothing to do about plastics.

GW spent the money to come up with a new process, though buggy right now, will probably end up being the industry standard.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> GW spent the money to come up with a new process, though buggy right now, will probably end up being the industry standard.
> Reply With Quote


I think that, in part, is the problem. GW are the industry leader. We shouldnt be seeing their buggy phase, that should be worked out in house.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

countchocula86 said:


> I think that, in part, is the problem. GW are the industry leader. We shouldnt be seeing their buggy phase, that should be worked out in house.


Exactly, they lead the industry, they are the largest company, and yet they produced a product line that was poorly thought out, poorly executed, poorly planned and rushed.

A friend of mine had gone into a GW store and bought a box of Chaos Raptors and they had to open up 3 boxes to get 5 decent Raptors, meaning 10 Raptor figures did not cut it for QC, That in itself is $216 worth of product and $144 lost in poor QC, i also have been told by friends that GW stores are having to refund hundreds and hundreds of Finecast purchases.

What should have been done was to run a period of pre-production of no less than 6 months.

Also many of the kits such as mentioned above should have come out in plastic and only IC come out in Resin


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> Here is what I have an issue with.
> 
> They only release a select few pics of their "test"
> They did not establish what was a fail, minor fail, major fail
> ...


Granted, the way they announced it was with a fair share of grandure from wayland... The mantic comment was just pure comical relief. Also, Mantic was commenting on their metals from the comments I read on FB. 

GW may have spend good money on R&D for this stuff, but it's quality so far is subpar. For a company that basically justifies every douche corperate move it makes with "we deliver the highest quality stuff and that costs money", this shouldn't be happening. 

Apart from the occasional poor looking mini sculpt, GW has never really produced bad quality products in the past. This is the first time this is happening and it couldn't have come at a worse time for them. 

As for it becomeing the standard for future products. If they cannot get the casting proces to have a more reasonable failure rate, or at least up the QC on the whole proces, the public may not stand for it. 

You cannot force feed a product to your customers if they really don't like it. 

So far, the whole finecast show has been pretty amusing to watch though. I'm curious to see how this unfolds. opcorn:


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*Quick reply from Wayland*

Thanks for all the comments folks.

This was a very difficult issue for us, the issues with the recent GW changes obviously were on our mind when we were dealing with this issue, however they actually made us reluctant to make any announcement as to not impact any discussions that might be taking place in private. 

However we had to balance that with our obligation to our customers that had placed their trust in us by ordering Finecast. We had to explain why we were making a decision and to we also have to communicate to those customers looking to purchase Finecast from us why we are not currently carrying it.

We are not anti GW, but we as a retailer have a legal obligation not to sell knowingly faulty product, and a commercial obligation not to saddle ourselves with an overhead that was the suppliers responsibility to resolve prior to us receiving product.

We posted the samples etc, and for some of you would not mind receiving product with some of the issues shown. Thats fine but many of our customers wouldnt, and we are not going to offer products with selectable options to ask how defective they would accept the product to be or how many foreign objects in the packaging would put them off.

We don't believe in any conspiracy theories, we just think these are teething issues and when the product is without flaws it its very impressive, but at the moment we cannot be confident that the early supplies are of sufficient quality for us to pass on to our customers.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

nogginthenog said:


> How anyone can possibly make them out to be the bad guys in this is mind boggling.
> 
> They didnt make the poor casts, GW did. The problem starts and stops right there.


No one (especially not me) is making them out to be the 'bad guys'. If GW have truly screwed up their order (I can't verify that, I haven't seen it) then they did the right thing to return it.

My point is that sometimes when dealing with a major supplier you need to bite your tongue a little bit and deal with things slightly differently. So could this have been dealt with a little more 'sensitively'?

Well yes, they could have simply emailed the people who ordered the products and explained why they were getting a refund, rather than making a public statement about it.

Does this make them the 'bad guys'? Far from it, what it does do is paint a huge crosshairs on them (along with previous public statements they have made) and I'm just waiting for GW to pull the trigger.

Ps - if GW did that it wouldn't make it 'right' just on par with their normal business practices.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

GW always handles it's affairs sensitively and tries not to aggravate anyone. Too bad Wayland couldn't do the same thing... The bunch of freeloaders.


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## Butcher001 (Jun 13, 2011)

I think is nosense telling people that with greenstuff and lancet you can fix it. Or that you have to open 5 boxes (even 2!) The reason is that we pay "the best miniatures" so I want THE BEST QUALITY in their miniatures.

Is like I go to buy a Mercedes Benz of 60000€ (because it's the best car) and have to get three or four before doing that. Or imagine that the car has the chasis damaged and they tell you that is a good moment to learn mechanics but that they are making no discount in the product!

NO, I pay quality and I want quality. I want to take the blister home, open it and see a miniature... not a miniature-like-creature.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> GW always handles it's affairs sensitively and tries not to aggravate anyone. Too bad Wayland couldn't do the same thing... The bunch of freeloaders.


I see what you did there. :biggrin:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> GW always handles it's affairs sensitively and tries not to aggravate anyone..


 
I never said that - I said how it deals with its SUPPLIERS.

do you ever see public announcements by GW about its plastics supplier, or its mold manufacturer?

Nope.

Thats my point - its people UP the chain, not down the chain.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I think Wayland is right in this, failcast is unacceptable at the moment. I have seen the new haemonculi model and it was actually very good. I believe it's one of the first models created with finecast in mind. The old minis on the other hand just seem rather lackluster when it comes to quality.

GW claims they are making the best miniatures in the world with finecast but as it is I just dont see it.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

countchocula86 said:


> ...the industry leader. We shouldn't be seeing their buggy phase, that should be worked out in house.


I wish someone would tell that to Microsoft...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Butcher001 said:


> I think is nosense telling people that with greenstuff and lancet you can fix it. Or that you have to open 5 boxes (even 2!) The reason is that we pay "the best miniatures" so I want THE BEST QUALITY in their miniatures.
> 
> Is like I go to buy a Mercedes Benz of 60000€ (because it's the best car) and have to get three or four before doing that. Or imagine that the car has the chasis damaged and they tell you that is a good moment to learn mechanics but that they are making no discount in the product!
> 
> NO, I pay quality and I want quality. I want to take the blister home, open it and see a miniature... not a miniature-like-creature.


Sorry but part of modeling and being a modeler has always meant preparing models prior to painting, removing flash, filling air bubbles or sinks and filling gaps with green stuff, be that on metal,resin or plastic, granted we shouldnt be expected to start re sculpting details or fixing mould slips.Even plastics can require an amount of fixing and altering,and its not just GW model kits that require work out of the box, i assembled a USS constitution several years back and it was a huge challenge far worse than any GW kit, and looking into the military modeling world its fairly common and is seen as part of the experience, though it has to be said pure modeling and gaming modeling are two different animals, i expect gamers to be less tolerant of "faults".

Also comparing a high end car and model kit is a bad example, apart from spending money on them the two are worlds apart, Resin models do come with there own limitations and difficulties, its one of the reasons i never expected to see the change from metal to resin at this level, i think if GW are guilty of anything its over estimating the ability of the standard guy on the street to assemble a model kit that isnt plastic.

I actually like a model that requires a little work(yeah i said it) because it allows me to add something of my own and make it special, granted i agree that isnt for everyone and we shouldnt expect anything other than a fully formed model in a package, but minor bubbles in places that dont effect detail are not a problem,mould lines not a problem, flash not a problem, warping not a problem if it can be corrected.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> I wish someone would tell that to Microsoft...


Or apple with their defective iphone 4 that needs a case in order that your hand doesnt short out the aerial...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Or apple with their defective iphone 4 that needs a case in order that your hand doesnt short out the aerial...


or PC game studios


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I never said that - I said how it deals with its SUPPLIERS.
> 
> do you ever see public announcements by GW about its plastics supplier, or its mold manufacturer?


They have mentioned issues before with things, but not often.
That is because they don't buy their materials in a monopoly market and change supplier and announce that and the resulting price increase instead.



Maidel said:


> Nope.


They just ignore any issues until it becomes a shitstorm bitchfest, great.



Maidel said:


> That's my point - its people UP the chain, not down the chain.


I'm just going to have to pretend/assume you work for GW and treat you like a Red Shirt who just won't stop trying to sell me stuff I don't want because its sooo coooool for my own sanity now.


If GW had not gone quite so over board extolling the virtues of FC then it might have been easier to except the troubles they are having with it.

To be honest that is part of the issue, people are fed up with being told how great it is all the bloody time and that's what is getting them such a backlash.

As Svartmetall has said they are aware of the issue and are sorting it, so there is hope for the future.

Thing is, GW should be saying this, why is this left up to individuals or middlemen to say?


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Here's the gist of the problem with GW and Finecast...they basically broadcast it as 'the' quality product of wargaming, and they justified the high price for said product on that implied quality....and failed to deliver said quality product, or at least the majority of it.

Many other businesses would have had their QA structure in place, seen the obvious problem and pulled the pin. GW however obviously put the product out to see how many customers would actually buy the product and fix it themselves, thereby saving GW time and money, and thinking/knowing they can get away with shoddy workmanship, and that we'll welcomely except it.

I have no doubt that they will sort these quality issues out eventually and Finecast may well indeed be 'the' standard in miniatures for years to come...but they stuffed this release up big time, should accept the criticism on the chin, lift their game QA-wise, and take measures to ensure they get future product up to standard from then on.


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## Butcher001 (Jun 13, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> Sorry but part of modeling and being a modeler has always meant preparing models prior to painting, removing flash, filling air bubbles or sinks and filling gaps with green stuff, be that on metal,resin or plastic, granted we shouldnt be expected to start re sculpting details or fixing mould slips.Even plastics can require an amount of fixing and altering,and its not just GW model kits that require work out of the box, i assembled a USS constitution several years back and it was a huge challenge far worse than any GW kit, and looking into the military modeling world its fairly common and is seen as part of the experience, though it has to be said pure modeling and gaming modeling are two different animals, i expect gamers to be less tolerant of "faults".
> 
> Also comparing a high end car and model kit is a bad example, apart from spending money on them the two are worlds apart, Resin models do come with there own limitations and difficulties, its one of the reasons i never expected to see the change from metal to resin at this level, i think if GW are guilty of anything its over estimating the ability of the standard guy on the street to assemble a model kit that isnt plastic.
> 
> I actually like a model that requires a little work(yeah i said it) because it allows me to add something of my own and make it special, granted i agree that isnt for everyone and we shouldnt expect anything other than a fully formed model in a package, but minor bubbles in places that dont effect detail are not a problem,mould lines not a problem, flash not a problem, warping not a problem if it can be corrected.


Yeah it's a bad example but is one.

I also like miniatures that make me work and I have to admit that I prefer resin to metal when dealing with conversions, painting, carrying and so on. Also the resin of FC is good enough.

I can deal with little bubbles and lots of flash (WWI/II and Napoleonic 1/72 sometimes comes with tons of them!). In the other hand they shouldn't expect me to buy a 20€ miniature and make half the miniature again.

Also as said above this is the backslash created from their propaganda machine. Also I hope the workers from GW to be working on the issue and FC can become the reference for miniatures in wargaming.

I trust you boys... don't make me feel disapointed!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> They have mentioned issues before with things, but not often.
> 
> 
> They just ignore any issues until it becomes a shitstorm bitchfest, great.


HAHA - people are utterly ignoring what I am saying and just expecting me to say something else...

I think GW have screwed up here, assuming that wayland have truely returned goods that were defective (and to think anything else would require one hell of a conspiracy theory...)



> I'm just going to have to pretend/assume you work for GW and treat you like a Red Shirt who just won't stop trying to sell me stuff I don't want because its sooo coooool for my own sanity now.


Quite the opposite. You have even remarked before that you dont consider me to be a GW-appologist - and Im not doing that - Im not trying to 'sell' finecast in theory or practice. All I have said is that wayland are opening themselves up to a world of pain by publically denouncing GW and its quality. 

They may well be correct and maybe doing exactly the 'right thing', but sometimes the 'right thing' is utterly the wrong business decision to make.



> That is because they don't buy their materials in a monopoly market and change supplier and announce that and the resulting price increase instead.


Neither does wayland - no one makes them sell GW products, thats their choice.



> If GW had not gone quite so over board extolling the virtues of FC then it might have been easier to except the troubles they are having with it.
> 
> To be honest that is part of the issue, people are fed up with being told how great it is all the bloody time and that's what is getting them such a backlash.


I agree - GW= fail on this issue. No arguement from me there.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

*Viscount Vash.*


> That is because they don't buy their materials in a monopoly market and change supplier and announce that and the resulting price increase instead.


_*Maidel.*_


> Neither does wayland - no one makes them sell GW products, thats their choice.


Now I know you are being a silly bugger.

No one makes GW sell Plastic or FC minis.
GW Can get their moulds, paints and materials from many suppliers is not the same as Wayland being able to choose not to stock GW.

Each company is buying a product from their supplier.

GW can buy paint and stick a label on it, doesn't matter who bloody makes it or get plastics granules from many suppliers and squish them into the shape of an SM.

Wayland cannot buy a Space Marine from anyone but GW.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> *Viscount Vash.*
> 
> Now I know you are being a silly bugger.
> 
> ...


No - I completely agree - no one else can (legally) make a space marine for sale. Thats GWs IP, thats their product.

GWs suppliers will all have certain copyrights to their particular brand of product - be it their specific blend of plastic or the cooling time of their product. If GW want that specific material then they have to buy it from that supplier. If they dont like how that supplier opperates then they have to decide whether it is more hassle to change suppliers to one that offers a slightly different product or service, or whether it is better just to shut up and put up with it because it would be more problematic to change.

No matter how you look at it the models that GW supplies are no different. They are a 'brand' of models that are unique to GW. If you want to sell that brand then you either put up with GW, or you move on to a different brand.

GW does not have a monopoly over minatures, merely they sell the most popular range and thus currently have the best barganing position. Which, ill admit, they tend to use like a bully, but thats no different to any of the large chains (tescos, microsoft, BP etc etc). 

My point is, and has been all along, is the Wayland statements recent seem to imply that they think that THEY are the bigger partner and they can dictate the terms (like continuing to sell to australia) and its going to be interresting to see who values the others custom more, GW or wayland.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Maidel. you are incorrect.

We absolutely had no choice but to make a statement. Customers that had ordered Finecast from us and those visiting us with a view to the purchase had a right to be informed of the situation. We had to be in control of the message as opposed to informing customers individually and inference and rumour being spread because of customers posting the news around the internet.

With regards to "recent statements" as we have already said our solution for customers for ROW, is entirely legitimate, it isnt in contravention of GW's terms and as you will see soon we will leverage the Wayland brand in serving customers globally.

We are not, have not been and will not be "anti GW" they are a fantastic company but we do have concerns over their new trade terms, again we had to make comment publically as we had thousands of emails and helpdesk tickets, along with speculation online that our customers wanted a reply to.

Nor do we seek to dictate terms to anyone whatsoever.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Maidel said:


> My point is, and has been all along, is the Wayland statements recent seem to imply that they think that THEY are the bigger partner and they can dictate the terms (like continuing to sell to australia) and its going to be interresting to see who values the others custom more, GW or wayland.



I don't really agree, but it is a question of how you read it I suppose.

To me it does not Imply that Wayland think they are a bigger partner in the business relationship.

It just shows they have found a loop hole in the overseas sales embargo somewhere and are willing to exploit it.

Everybody knows Wayland is an insect compared to the might of GeeDub, even Wayland.

Interesting? Maybe, 
but in the end when it makes sense financially to stop supplying an Online Distributor and take the business direct they will.

Much the same as when they watch a Independent shops sales and then setting up their own store in the same town when they decide that the sales in said town warrant it.

Edit. Niinijaad by the peeps them selves. lol


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

elmir said:


> But but but... finecast am bestest mini in world.





Maidel said:


> No no, you misunderstand - its their public announcements about EVERYTHING.
> 
> They gave GW a public kicking when they raised prices
> 
> ...





Katie Drake said:


> Better this than silence like a certain other company.





MadCowCrazy said:


> I think Wayland is right in this, failcast is unacceptable at the moment. I have seen the new haemonculi model and it was actually very good. I believe it's one of the first models created with finecast in mind. The old minis on the other hand just seem rather lackluster when it comes to quality.
> 
> GW claims they are making the best miniatures in the world with finecast but as it is I just dont see it.





countchocula86 said:


> I think that, in part, is the problem. GW are the industry leader. We shouldnt be seeing their buggy phase, that should be worked out in house.





elmir said:


> As for it becomeing the standard for future products. If they cannot get the casting proces to have a more reasonable failure rate, or at least up the QC on the whole proces, the public may not stand for it.
> 
> You cannot force feed a product to your customers if they really don't like it.
> 
> So far, the whole finecast show has been pretty amusing to watch though. I'm curious to see how this unfolds. opcorn:





ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> GW always handles it's affairs sensitively and tries not to aggravate anyone. Too bad Wayland couldn't do the same thing... The bunch of freeloaders.


LOL Free Loaders. That was great.:laugh:



rich1231 said:


> Maidel. you are incorrect.
> 
> We absolutely had no choice but to make a statement. Customers that had ordered Finecast from us and those visiting us with a view to the purchase had a right to be informed of the situation. We had to be in control of the message as opposed to informing customers individually and inference and rumour being spread because of customers posting the news around the internet.
> 
> ...


This sums up the Argument for anyone not willing to read 7 pages of the same thing in longer sentences and with big words.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

rich1231 said:


> With regards to "recent statements" as we have already said our solution for customers for ROW, is entirely legitimate, it isnt in contravention of GW's terms and as you will see soon we will leverage the Wayland brand in serving customers globally..


And you dont think, no matter how legitmate your situation is, that you arent royally pissing on GWs parade? You took the letter of the law and utterly rode straight over GWs intentions.

Now, I dont necessarily agree with what GW did, I can see why they did it, but it doesnt necessarily make it right. But does the fact that you are doing the exact opposite of what GW want you do do make you slightly nervous about them simply deciding you are more trouble than you are worth?



Viscount Vash said:


> I don't really agree, but it is a question of how you read it I suppose.
> 
> To me it does not Imply that Wayland think they are a bigger partner in the business relationship.
> 
> It just shows they have found a loop hole in the overseas sales embargo somewhere and are willing to exploit it.


Yep, I see what you are saying - I wasnt making myself clear. For me, the bigger trading partner will often do what it wants, even if it goes against what the smaller trading partner wants. When the smaller trading partner starts doing things that go against what the larger partner wants, it tends to mean they think they can do without the other, either because they have outgrown them, or because they consider themselves invaluable to their larger partner.


And again I am not saying that wayland have done anything 'wrong', they are, infact, the wronged party in the finecast debarckle (lots of orders they have had to refund), I am just asking the question if they are having going to be causing themselves far more issues in the long run.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Maidel, Please dont think that I am being rude as it isnt my intent. However your remark "And you dont think, no matter how legitmate your situation is, that you arent royally pissing on GWs parade? You took the letter of the law and utterly rode straight over GWs intentions." in response to my comments suggests you have assumed that what I was saying was incorrect. In all our statements we have been careful to use the correct language to express our plans, and some of the remarks have some subtle layers incorporated. We as I said will not be breaching GW trade terms or conditions of sale in anyway whatsoever. There is nothing for GW to be upset about, we will as a legitimate business or businesses still be serving a global customer base with GW product.

I have no idea if English is your first language or not and so it is often difficult to read between the lines within posts but I cant be any more open or obvious at the moment.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Rich, under each posters avatar is a nation flag. Mines English, so it's a safe bet that English is my first language. 

All I am saying is if I was selling a product to someone with the express contract that they would not sell in outside of their area, if I then found out they were selling the product legally in the place I told them not to, then I wouldn't give a damn about the legality, I'd just be annoyed with them.

Im not doubting your legal loop hole in any way. The stock is obviously from a source that isn't your direct GW supply chain, so I understand that you aren't breaking any laws or contracts, but from the outside (and there is a thread somewhere on this forum about it) where everyone basically congratulates you for sticking it to GW.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Sorry, i hadnt noticed the flag Doh.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

rich1231 said:


> Sorry, i hadnt noticed the flag Doh.


That's alright, it doesn't always show up. And my spelling often makes me look like it's not my first language, and the auto correct on the iPhone causes more issues than it solves!


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, I think that sometimes, even when you're the smaller partner, you have to stick up to the bigger partner. Always being the servile part of the relationship isn't good for the smaller partner, as the bigger partner will then keep aksing more and more. And if Wayland just draws the line with GW, it might bring other distributors to do the same thing. And once a few big sellers do that, GW just might have to listen.

Of course, one cannot always charge at windmills, but I'm really surprised at the opinion that GW is just too big and we (the customers, the resellers, etc) cannot do anything but suck it up. 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> .
> 
> Of course, one cannot always charge at windmills, but I'm really surprised at the opinion that GW is just too big and we (the customers, the resellers, etc) cannot do anything but suck it up.
> 
> Phil


What's the phrase? - 'together we stand, divided we fall'.

Until everyone stands up and says no, nothing will change. Seeing as we aren't doing it over food prices, fuel, loan rates etc etc, what are the chances of going it with a toy manufacturer?

Just a thought.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, someone has to pick up the flag... If everyone's waiting for everyone else, nothing happens. Also, a toy manufacturer is much easier to change than an oil company. They're almost as captive of us as we are of it. The difference is I cannot live without food or fuel, but I can live without GW.

Also, we are changing thing all around. Bio food, local food, hybrid cars, etc are all tiny changes we, the customers, are imposing.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, I don't know. I'd be far more prepared to stand up for something I need, rather than something I don't need, but each to their own.

And do you really think the public is demanding hybrid cars?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Well, I don't know. I'd be far more prepared to stand up for something I need, rather than something I don't need, but each to their own.
> 
> And do you really think the public is demanding hybrid cars?


You're quite right... but why not do both? 

As for hybrid/electic cars, I think enough people ask for them/buy them for car companies to make them, which was not the case 10 years ago.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> You're quite right... but why not do both?
> 
> As for hybrid/electic cars, I think enough people ask for them/buy them for car companies to make them, which was not the case 10 years ago.
> 
> Phil


I think anyone who drives a Prius for Eco reasons needs to be shot as it's as Eco friendly as a oil slick in comparison to half the modern European diesel engines.

As for 'doing both' I think the problem with that is that 99% of people want an easy peaceful life, and the only way to 'raise the masses' is when something catastrophic happens, either monetarily or naturally. I don't count GW as 'catastrophic' and thus I'm pretty damn certain it won't happen.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I think anyone who drives a Prius for Eco reasons needs to be shot as it's as Eco friendly as a oil slick in comparison to half the modern European diesel engines.
> 
> As for 'doing both' I think the problem with that is that 99% of people want an easy peaceful life, and the only way to 'raise the masses' is when something catastrophic happens, either monetarily or naturally. I don't count GW as 'catastrophic' and thus I'm pretty damn certain it won't happen.


Once again, you're quite right on both accounts  But I think that Wayland has the potential of raising more awareness than most. 

Also, at the end of the day when I get to sleep, I'm happy knowing I did all those things (and not against GW per se, but in general to make our society a better place). Cue "I did it my wayyyyyyyyyyyyy" 

All in all, I want GW to thrive. I love the games, I love the minatures, I love the setting. I think Finecast is a great idea (that might have been rushed). I'm ready to pay a fair price (which is what Wayland is offering me) for their products. I'm pretty pro-GW, actually. But, I'll still demand answers for everything that I don't like from GW, even though I usually won't get them (I've actually had some very nice persons at GW answer me, including a few years ago Andy Hoare). This includes Canadian prices, the like of proofreading rules, the late FAQs, the huge gap between codice updates, etc...

What I see around me, though, is that players don't give a damn about GW anymore. They feel like it's urban warfare. My best friend just bought himself a DKoK army from a russian "seller". I told him that I thought it was lame on his part. But still, like many local players, he told me: GW doens't give a damn, so why should I?

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Also, at the end of the day when I get to sleep, I'm happy knowing I did all those things (and not against GW per se, but in general to make our society a better place). Cue "I did it my wayyyyyyyyyyyyy" l


Im all for doing things my way, but when it comes down to it, ill take almost anything, rather than put my lively hood on the line.

But evidentally Wayland think they are safe, so thats their decision to make.

(where is the ostrich putting his head in the sand smilie when you need it. :laugh


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> What's the phrase? - 'together we stand, divided we fall'.
> 
> Until everyone stands up and says no, nothing will change. Seeing as we aren't doing it over food prices, fuel, loan rates etc etc, what are the chances of going it with a toy manufacturer?
> 
> Just a thought.


But things are changing! 

I've brought a lot of GW hate to the table over the past few months but I said in 08/09 when the price rises starting hitting every year that it would be the death of them. 

Don't get me wrong, I love GW. It's been a massive part of my life for the last 9 years. But I cannot justify paying £23 for a box of soldiers that only takes up 13% of my army...

Gw's death will not be an event of massive drama, but rather a slow suffication. With each price rise they make it harder to get into the hobby. And this, combines with the restriction of online retailers and the rules nuking mean veterans will leave in droves ever quicker. Add into this the things they have done to the specialist games (People in my local GW are banned from playing specialist games) and things look pretty bleak.

I know many people who have left the hobby because of cost/rules/GW attitude or who have jumped ship. 

And what with all their recent upsettings, more people than ever are looking for somethign new. And in this situations, new companies thrive. The rise of Privateer press, corvus belli, mantic and many other, quality companies, can be directly attributed to the failings of GW. 
Why should we have to pay £20 for 16 skeletons when we could get 20 for £14 from mantic (or if you prefer a whole army scenerio, the undead £50 box set is a 1/3 of what it would cost from GW _before_ buing any rulebooks)
And why should we pay so much for GW's metal and resin products when there are plenty available that are just as high (or higher) quality for less?

The only thing keeping GW at the top is their stores. But it won't be long until not even those can help them.

Things have gotten to the point know where I have decided I cannot justify GW prices and attitude and have moved onto other companies, and many others are doing the same. 

By "standing up" to GW, wayland could cause a ripple effect that promts both other retailers and customers do the same. And this would be a wonderous thing. GW need to change their ways to survive.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> But things are changing!
> 
> I've brought a lot of GW hate to the table over the past few months but I said in 08/09 when the price rises starting hitting every year that it would be the death of them.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love GW. It's been a massive part of my life for the last 9 years. But I cannot justify paying £23 for a box of soldiers that only takes up 13% of my army...


That I dont understand - how could you justify paying £20.50 for it earlier in the year? Just buy less, surely? 





> By "standing up" to GW, wayland could cause a ripple effect that promts both other retailers and customers do the same. And this would be a wonderous thing. GW need to change their ways to survive.


As for the rest of the post - its purely a difference of opinion - I personally think that GW will finish this financial year strongly and prove all the nay sayers wrong - but ill remember this conversation, if it turns out im wrong when GW next publish their finances there will be a big appology and lots of rep comming your way.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> That I dont understand - how could you justify paying £20.50 for it earlier in the year? Just buy less, surely?
> 
> 
> I coulden't! lol. I haven't brought a box of marines in years. I've been living off my recycled models for my troops for a long time lol
> ...


GW probably will finish this year in a strong position. But like I said, theirs won't be a quick death. And it will a culmination of things that brings them down!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> GW probably will finish this year in a strong position. But like I said, theirs won't be a quick death. And it will a culmination of things that brings them down!


Oh right - you just said you first said it in 2009 - so I assumed that 3 years on (end of financial year) that it would at least be the start of the slow death.

I think thats the problem - people have been predicting a 'slow death' for GW since about 1995. Its like the guy who keeps predicting the end of the world and revising his date every time it turns out that the world hasnt ended.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

To be fair, GW's tremendous fluff is keeping a lot of players interested. In my gaming circle, some players have stopped buying models for years, yet they avidly buy every Horus Heresy book that comes out.

Phil


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Oh right - you just said you first said it in 2009 - so I assumed that 3 years on (end of financial year) that it would at least be the start of the slow death.
> 
> I think thats the problem - people have been predicting a 'slow death' for GW since about 1995. Its like the guy who keeps predicting the end of the world and revising his date every time it turns out that the world hasnt ended.


That's the thing though, In the last three years more and more players have moved onto other systems. GW have kept profits up by introducing new members and "trimming fat" in the company. The first of which, can only continue for so long until new plays can't afford to get itno the hobby.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> That's the thing though, In the last three years more and more players have moved onto other systems. GW have kept profits up by introducing new members and "trimming fat" in the company. The first of which, can only continue for so long until new plays can't afford to get itno the hobby.


Dont mean to be flippant or anything - but havent they ALWAYS done that?

When I worked for GW 1999-2001 the biggest complaints were that 'they didnt care about veterans and that all the emphasis was around new gamers and that it would be the death of GW.

Its 2011 - thats 12 years on and we are still saying the same thing and GW is still in profit.

Im not saying you are wrong, because I dont have a crystal ball, only time will tell, what I am saying is that nothing has changed (except finecast) and that I dont see why its any different now to before.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> Sorry but part of modeling and being a modeler has always meant preparing models prior to painting, removing flash, filling air bubbles or sinks and filling gaps with green stuff, be that on metal,resin or plastic, granted we shouldnt be expected to start re sculpting details or fixing mould slips.Even plastics can require an amount of fixing and altering,and its not just GW model kits that require work out of the box, i assembled a USS constitution several years back and it was a huge challenge far worse than any GW kit, and looking into the military modeling world its fairly common and is seen as part of the experience, though it has to be said pure modeling and gaming modeling are two different animals, i expect gamers to be less tolerant of "faults".


Modelling to fill in gaps or problems like that are fine. As you say, models require some tlc coming out of the box and thats just another enjoyable part of it. But it sounds like the problem with mistcasts are holes or seriously warped details, and that isnt acceptable. GW deems their IP worth enough to charge fairly high prices for their models, and part of that means we shouldnt have to deal with severe cases of bad casting. 

I mean, if I need to accept the fact that Im going to have to sculpt on details myself, then I feel justified in demanding a lower price.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

countchocula86 said:


> I mean, if I need to accept the fact that Im going to have to sculpt on details myself, then I feel justified in demanding a lower price.


Not wanting to speak for anyone, but Im certain he would agree with me when I point out that in the post you quoted he said exactly that:



> granted we shouldnt be expected to start re sculpting details or fixing mould slips.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

Of course, but Im saying that reculpting details does seem to be what the problem is, and that its not simply a matter of lazy modellers.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

countchocula86 said:


> Of course, but Im saying that reculpting details does seem to be what the problem is, and that its not simply a matter of lazy modellers.


Jeeze, how lazy can people be. I mean, you actually expect GW to sculpt the model FOR YOU. :laugh:


But seriously, you are right, if they are that bad then they arent up to scratch, if its tiny air bubbles, well, you should have seen the air bubble I had to fill in my FW wave serpent... Not to mention the fact it was so warped it wouldnt fit on the falcon hull until id left it in near boiling water for 20minutes...


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Jeeze, how lazy can people be. I mean, you actually expect GW to sculpt the model FOR YOU. :laugh:


But you can totally just here the hardcore people, "What. You wont sculpt your own models?? You dont care enough about the hobby!"


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

countchocula86 said:


> But you can totally just here the hardcore people, "What. You wont sculpt your own models?? You dont care enough about the hobby!"


I think most other people would place me firmly in your 'hardcore' group.

And even I dont think thats fair.

Good models = fair price.

****ed up models = rip off


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Went to pick up the finecast librarian I ordered last week and the shop owner said they have been backordered/recalled (as in all the finecast stuff) So they might be working at fixing the issue fully.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Dont mean to be flippant or anything - but havent they ALWAYS done that?
> 
> When I worked for GW 1999-2001 the biggest complaints were that 'they didnt care about veterans and that all the emphasis was around new gamers and that it would be the death of GW.
> 
> ...


What you need to remember though is 12 years ago there wern't nearly as many other companies offering products comparable in quality and lower in price. Add into this the boom in the internet and people's abilities to find said companies (and about the hobby) and yes, things are changing. 

If things carry on the way they are, in a few years the starter sets will be £70, within five they will most likely be £80. There are _very_ few people who will be able to get into the hobby for £80 cost before glue/paint/codicies and extra bits. If GW stop independant retailers from selling their product (which I can see happening in this time period) then GW will be the only place to buy from. 

That's why I've said for years that GW's price rises will be the end of them. It could be another 10 years from now, but unless they change their business plan or there is some magic situation where everyone becomes minted, they will suffer.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> If things carry on the way they are, in a few years the starter sets will be £70, within five they will most likely be £80. There are _very_ few people who will be able to get into the hobby for £80 cost before glue/paint/codicies and extra bits. If GW stop independant retailers from selling their product (which I can see happening in this time period) then GW will be the only place to buy from.


Ive said it before, and ill say it again - AoBR is not 80% of peoples first purchases into GW. Most people buy a paint set and a box of space marines - AoBR is a christmas or birthrday present, if its ever bought at all.

Thus, its not the defining cost of getting into the hobby.

I bet most people dont even buy a codex until they seriously get interrested.



> That's why I've said for years that GW's price rises will be the end of them. It could be another 10 years from now, but unless they change their business plan or there is some magic situation where everyone becomes minted, they will suffer.


We shall see. As neither of us have the before mentioned crystal ball, all I can say is that its going to be a fun ride one way or the other. :biggrin:


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> Add into this the boom in the internet and people's abilities to find said companies (and about the hobby) and yes, things are changing.


This is, for me anyways, the most interesting thing. Its so much easier now for someone to make models and get them out to interested people. Thats not say these small companies are even a threat to GW in anyway, but what they represent is quite interesting. The internet is such a strong tool of globalization, but GW is vehemently opposed to it. In some ways, I think of the big media battles that happened before. The the music industry fought napster, and now utterly embraces itunes and such. How streaming was the tool of the devil, and then along came hulu and netflix. It is not in GWs best interest to try to fight the internet and globalization, they need to figure out a way to utilize it.

As Im typing this, I keep thinking of the episode of the Office (US) when Michael Scott starts his own paper company. And even though his company is doomed to not turn a cent of profit, the way he nabs Dunder Mifflin customers forces them to deal. Thats how I see all these internet mini companies, slowely and minutely chipping away at GW. And then of course theres companies like PP who are perhaps chipping away bigger pieces.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Got my first finecast today- a couple of DE Succubi and an Emperor's Champion. One Succubus was for me, the other two models were presents.

'My' Succubus has no head. I'm not sure that exactly counts as a moulding defect, but it wasn't there. Several of the thinner areas on the model were also tissue-paper thin. Fortunately I was using it for a conversion project so this wasn't an issue, but since these minis came direct from GW two days ago, it seems not all the gremlins are yet slain. OTOH, though I've not opened the packs the other two models seem basically fine.

As far as GW's slow death is concerned, I'm not really seeing it. There have been plenty of competitors over the years with products that were comparable in quality and cheaper- Grenadier, Ral Partha, Heartbreaker etc- but the GW fluff and pervasive presence, which is only getting stronger with the recent high-quality THQ computer games like Dawn of War, is very tough to beat. I attend a regular games night with ages from 15 up to late thirties (me  ) and none of the younger players have even heard of most of GW's competitors, much less bought anything from them. And yes, we veterans do keep telling them about them!

Addendum: Should add that according to my spy/gopher who regularly goes to the local GW store, people there are still opening any Finecast they buy on the scene and getting immediate replacements. Worryingly often.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> What you need to remember though is 12 years ago there wern't nearly as many other companies offering products comparable in quality and lower in price. Add into this the boom in the internet and people's abilities to find said companies (and about the hobby) and yes, things are changing.
> 
> If things carry on the way they are, in a few years the starter sets will be £70, within five they will most likely be £80. There are _very_ few people who will be able to get into the hobby for £80 cost before glue/paint/codicies and extra bits. If GW stop independant retailers from selling their product (which I can see happening in this time period) then GW will be the only place to buy from.
> 
> That's why I've said for years that GW's price rises will be the end of them. It could be another 10 years from now, but unless they change their business plan or there is some magic situation where everyone becomes minted, they will suffer.


I watched a very good vid off YouTube, can't remember the actual vid title, but the presenter made a very good observation, in his observation this chap clearly states that looking at what GW have done since 1999-2001 to the present, makes for one thing within the next 5 to 10 years the only place you will buy GW products is from GW Bricks and Mortar and online stores, the independent will eventually be shut out. GW will be in full control of all distribution of it's products and they will cut out the middlemen. Also this could see GW take on GW products sold on Online Auction sites, such as EBay.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Yes. For instance, GW made a grand announcement that they were opening 15 new stores in the Netherlands this year - something not completely well received by the independents around here who'd built up the market for their products.

Oh, GW's smart enough not to compete in the independents' hometowns, mostly - that'd simply be over-saturation - but their store locations tend to be close enough to pick up a good deal of existing customers by simply being closer.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Typical store locations really. They have none out where I live, but that should change eventually.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

In my area we have three independents selling GW products, one will be getting out of GW when their current deal expires.

One has reduced its core product list of Warhammer 40K are Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines and Orks, they have stopped stocking everything else, as far as WHF they are only selling Warriors of Chaos, Orc & Goblins, Dwarfs, High Elfs and Skaven, again they wo't stock anything else and have dropped LoTR.

While the other one who is a games specialist shop is finding it hard to sell GW product, thankfully for them they have Magic the Gathering, Pokemon and Yugi to prop up the business. Also Warmachine, Hordes and Flames of War are popular.

What i know is that within the next couple of years we wont have anyone selling GW in my area, this gives GW a great opportunity to set up a B&M in one of the three large malls, the last Independent will be shut out.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

At least as far as the US is concerned, there are far too few and far between GW stores even available. The closest to me is about a 6 hour drive, and when I was in Oklahoma the closest was 5 hours.

Independent retailers account for far too much of their profit in the US for them to be able to even consider not allowing them to sell their products. It'd take way too long and cost way too much to build the US-based GW stores up to adequately meet any sort of demand just to keep interest in the hobby going.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Boc said:


> At least as far as the US is concerned, there are far too few and far between GW stores even available. The closest to me is about a 6 hour drive, and when I was in Oklahoma the closest was 5 hours.
> 
> Independent retailers account for far too much of their profit in the US for them to be able to even consider not allowing them to sell their products. It'd take way too long and cost way too much to build the US-based GW stores up to adequately meet any sort of demand just to keep interest in the hobby going.


Not if they already have locations targeted, they can come in big and over the next 5 to 10 years exponentially expand with several hundred new GW stores.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Not particularly on-topic, but:

I was in a local hobby store today and was looking through the various ranges, when I noticed something. Assault on Black reach was selling for $165AUD, whereas Warmachine battleboxes were going for only $50AUD. 

I could hardly believe it. You can get a small Warmachine force for the cost of 10 imperial guardsmen. It's lunacy! GW products are marked up like 150-200% and Warmachine products are essentially the same as the UK price. The only things that are expensive are the books, but they're hardcover and still 20-40% cheaper than the GW equivalents.

All that wasn't particularly on-topic, but I thought it was interesting when I saw it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Not particularly on-topic, but:
> 
> I was in a local hobby store today and was looking through the various ranges, when I noticed something. Assault on Black reach was selling for $165AUD, whereas Warmachine battleboxes were going for only $50AUD.
> 
> ...


i went to a grocery store yesterday and jazz apples were £1 for bag of 7 apples how cool is that ?they are my favorite type of apples, very juicy,nothing to do with wayland returning its finecast and the potential of the resin miniature medium but i thought as we were sharing our shopping experiences .....


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> i went to a grocery store yesterday and jazz apples were £1 for bag of 7 apples how cool is that ?they are my favorite type of apples, very juicy,nothing to do with wayland returning its finecast and the potential of the resin miniature medium but i thought as we were sharing our shopping experiences .....


While his original comment had little to do with the topic, yours had nothing at all to do with it. If you feel a post has no place then use the report function instead of chipping it with your own useless comment. 

On topic, I've yet to get any finecast stuff myself, but due to everything I've seen/heard, I certainly won't be picking any up until the quality control is sorted (or maybe just wait until wayland starts selling them again lol)


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> nothing to do with wayland returning its finecast and the potential of the resin miniature medium





ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Not particularly on-topic...





ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> ...All that wasn't particularly on-topic, but I thought it was interesting when I saw it.


I'm guessing you missed those bits. 


Noone's forcing you to read my posts, and I did mention that it was off-topic, or were you just trying to be funny?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> While his original comment had little to do with the topic, yours had nothing at all to do with it. If you feel a post has no place then use the report function instead of chipping it with your own useless comment.
> 
> On topic, I've yet to get any finecast stuff myself, but due to everything I've seen/heard, I certainly won't be picking any up until the quality control is sorted (or maybe just wait until wayland starts selling them again lol)


the quality of the models is fine, the detail is crisper, my batch had only some minor issues,no more than a standard forgeworld order, but this is why a few posters have argued about putting out public statements, it causes people to rethink purchases.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> the quality of the models is fine, the detail is crisper, my batch had only some minor issues,no more than a standard forgeworld order, but this is why a few posters have argued about putting out public statements, it causes people to rethink purchases.


I agree with you, but I'd rather be put off paying for an overpriced, poor quality model for a few months until I can get one and revel in it's awesomeness, which I'm sure I will once the issues are sorted out


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## ohmtastic (Jun 8, 2011)

I got a finecast hive tyrant, on finecast day... now referred to as F-Day.

F-Day can also be interpreted as Fudge Day, Fail day, Fanx for up-ing the prices Day... (yes i ran out of ideas for the last one.)

So there i was on F-day outside the shop waiting to go in.... wanted to get a tyrant for 2 reasons... 1. I need a HQ for my nidz, 2. It was going to be finecast....

Ok so I got my hands on one, £36(I think)... not happy but bought it anyway as i came all that way for it.

Assembled it in the shop as did some other people with their finecast models... but the things i noticed...

The sheer amount of flash, it was like someone had put the items on the sprues and then poured pva glue to fill in the gaps. Took me 20mins to get it off as there was alot.
It was really really bendy.... to the point of this is a bonesword.... BONE, its not meant to bend. At least the plastic would snap like bones do. 

Only good thing was the level of detail the model has. Still I don't think it justifies the £36 quid.

I get most of my models now from ebay or similar or try to trade/buy from other people on here.

cheers
ohm


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> _"...the industry leader. We shouldn't be seeing their buggy phase, that should be worked out in house."_
> 
> I wish someone would tell that to Microsoft...


:laugh: I actually compared the Finecast release to the way Microsoft do business in another thread. I have never agreed with the 'release it on time regardless of condition mentality' - all it does is cause bad feeling and needless controversy.



bitsandkits said:


> Sorry but part of modeling and being a modeler has always meant preparing models prior to painting, removing flash, filling air bubbles or sinks and filling gaps with green stuff, be that on metal,resin or plastic, granted we shouldnt be expected to start re sculpting details or fixing mould slips...Resin models do come with there own limitations and difficulties, its one of the reasons i never expected to see the change from metal to resin at this level, i think if GW are guilty of anything its over estimating the ability of the standard guy on the street to assemble a model kit that isnt plastic.
> 
> I actually like a model that requires a little work(yeah i said it) because it allows me to add something of my own and make it special, granted i agree that isnt for everyone and we shouldnt expect anything other than a fully formed model in a package, but minor bubbles in places that dont effect detail are not a problem,mould lines not a problem, flash not a problem, warping not a problem if it can be corrected.


Some very salient points here, however, the likes of you and me are experienced modelers so we can cope with this sort of thing. Who is GW's biggest audience now? Who have they aimed their main games at and dumbed them down to accomodate? Who are the blingiest uber unit's and armies now aimed at? GW's core audience is the 12 to 15 year old bracket. With exceptions, the majority of these will not have the skill sets required to deal effectively with the current problems of FC. When all is said and done, resin as a modeling medium has always been something for the advanced modeler, not just the traditional hazards associated with it but also the care required to achieve top results.

I have not actually seen any COSHH information as to the possible hazards associated with this version of resin, but in it's present form I still think it is something for the advanced modeler.



Maidel said:


> Viscount Vash said:
> 
> 
> > *Viscount Vash.*
> ...


Your argument really holds no water here as your not comparing like with like. GW is buying raw materials to use in a production process so they have the ability to select from different manufacturer's. Even if they are buying a finished product, whatever agreements they have in place allows GW to re-brand those products and pass them off as their own.

Wayland, on the other hand, are stocking a branded product with an ironclad IP so they can only obtain their stock from GW. That should not mean that Wayland should be expected to put up with accepting something that is sub-standard.

Svart has already said that GW are working hard on a solution. The problem is that they have remained the silent partner in this when they should have been most vocal in re-assuring their customers. Wayland should never have been put in the position of having to inform the masses.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

People complain that Finecast has bad flash,









Go pick up a Tamiya kit sometime.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Khargoth said:


> People complain that Finecast has bad flash,
> 
> Go pick up a Tamiya kit sometime.


a valid point, which relates to my previous posts, but many of GW's customer base are not willing to learn to deal with the mediums short falls,i have read posts on this very forum from people not willing to include metals in there army because they didnt want to or were not able to glue and pin,in some ways fine cast takes away the need to do that very thing, but replaces it with other problems such as flash and warping.

looking at the storm of chaos it looks like GW are going to shift to more plastics, have you spotted the plastic single characters yet? if they follow this through to 40k i can see them on to a winner.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> a valid point, which relates to my previous posts, but many of GW's customer base are not willing to learn to deal with the mediums short falls,i have read posts on this very forum from people not willing to include metals in there army because they didnt want to or were not able to glue and pin,in some ways fine cast takes away the need to do that very thing, but replaces it with other problems such as flash and warping.
> 
> looking at the storm of chaos it looks like GW are going to shift to more plastics, have you spotted the plastic single characters yet? if they follow this through to 40k i can see them on to a winner.


Exactly my earlier point, and some of this actually comes back to the problem that the stores are now really showrooms rather than the excellent hobby centres they were back in the day. That community spirit has gone from the retail stores - I am willing to bet it is still alive and well in FLG's though.

All the stuff I learnt about modeling was passed down to me as a comparative youngster in GW stores by the resident Greybeards. How are the current youngsters supposed to learn if there is no one to teach them - well, the likes of our excellent tutorial section is one medium but there is never a real replacement for 'on the job training' as it were.

As to the plastics...I would be over the moon if they moved everything to plastic but I fear it would just be too cost prohibitive given the tooling involved. GW still need to make a decent return on any given model range to pay for the production costs which has always held them back. It is not economical to produce say a specific HQ figure like Marneus Calgar or Eldrad Ulthran because they cannot sell enough units to cover the production costs. Units like Tac Squads or Terminators, Boyz, Termagants etc are well suited to this because they can shift bucket loads of them and turn a profit.


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

ohmtastic said:


> I got a finecast hive tyrant, on finecast day... now referred to as F-Day.
> 
> F-Day can also be interpreted as Fudge Day, Fail day, Fanx for up-ing the prices Day... (yes i ran out of ideas for the last one.)
> 
> ...


20 mins to completely clean up a large model? Seems pretty good to me - how long d'you think that would have taken you on the old metal one? Then add on time for pinning and prep to actually get the peices to fit together... don't know about anyone else, but between metal and finecast, finecast has been the clear winner for me on clean up and assembly time so far. Then again, I've not had a miscast yet...

The bendyness/fragility of thinner pieces is a worry, though, I'd agree with that one.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I like Plastics cause I think they Survive better during Table falls/mishaps. I have a Metal Chaos Lord, he falls and shatters from a 3 foot drop. My Platic Lord falls and bounces where I then dust it off and put him back on the table. Plastic is the best for Survivability, Price, Customising, and Painting. 

WINNING!


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Khargoth said:


> People complain that Finecast has bad flash,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


38 years of military model building and i can count on one hand the time i have encounted flash in a Tamiya kit.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> I like Plastics cause I think they Survive better during Table falls/mishaps. I have a Metal Chaos Lord, he falls and shatters from a 3 foot drop. My Platic Lord falls and bounces where I then dust it off and put him back on the table. Plastic is the best for Survivability, Price, Customising, and Painting.
> 
> WINNING!


That is why they should have gone over to an all plastic range in the first place, yeah it may have cost GW and eventually customers to do it but it would have prevented the massive disaster by GW.


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## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm friends with a product distributer and I recieve a 20-40% discount on any gaming product I purchase from his store. I placed my pre-order for 14 Gamesworkshop fine cast for the first wave of finecast. When I went to pick up and purchase my finecast pre order I was denied my standard 20-40% discount. My friend explained to me that the finecast models are sold to him just under direct order price and that by offering any kind of discount he was not making any money off of the sale. 

My situation may be isolated but I get the impression that any non gamesworkshop independent retailer will not get finecast cheap. This is probably a contributing factor for refusal to sell the product.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> That is why they should have gone over to an all plastic range in the first place, yeah it may have cost GW and eventually customers to do it but it would have prevented the massive disaster by GW.


i think thats the way we are heading, massive amounts of models are changing to plastics all the time and with these new plastic single characters i can see a switch to 100% plastic on the horizon, i think fine cast is a stop gap because of how volatile the metal markets are at the moment, plus with the ability to use 2ups for sculpting for CAD characters will be easier to convert moving forward.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Just look at the new Storm of Magic stuff. Almost all plastic.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Over 4 years ago i believed that GW should have gone to an all Plastic range, no metals, no resins, just honest to goodness plastic.

GW should have planned 5 years ago to switch to an all Plastic range.

With the current Storm of Magic IC's in plastic proves that exceptional plastic IC's can be produced to a better standard than Resin or Pewter.

I have already marked at least 6 Storm of Magic figures to be put into the CSM Sons of Achaylus Chapter


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

H0RRIDF0RM said:


> I'm friends with a product distributer and I recieve a 20-40% discount on any gaming product I purchase from his store. I placed my pre-order for 14 Gamesworkshop fine cast for the first wave of finecast. When I went to pick up and purchase my finecast pre order I was denied my standard 20-40% discount. My friend explained to me that the finecast models are sold to him just under direct order price and that by offering any kind of discount he was not making any money off of the sale.
> 
> My situation may be isolated but I get the impression that any non gamesworkshop independent retailer will not get finecast cheap. This is probably a contributing factor for refusal to sell the product.


This clears up why two indepedents in my area will not stock Finecast, sounds like they don't make that much on them.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Cypher871 said:


> Heh, I was down at Warhammer World yesterday buying some FW kit. They were extoling the virtues of Finecast to me until I told them I thought it was poor quality...the sales guy gave up after that.
> 
> I did look at a Tau Ethereal and considered buying it for a few moments...I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Models that are bulky with no thin extremeties like swords or staff will probably be ok, but on every Ethereal I looked at his staff was really warped. Granted it can be heated and bent back into shape but it makes me worry how resilient the model will be over time.
> 
> ...


But since the british summer is here for the duration of the weekend, it will simple melt when you leave...


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Over 4 years ago i believed that GW should have gone to an all Plastic range, no metals, no resins, just honest to goodness plastic.
> 
> GW should have planned 5 years ago to switch to an all Plastic range.
> 
> ...


5 years is unrealistic, not to mention the change from metal began in 2006 with the change in law regarding lead in electronics and the demand for tin really was drastically under estimated due to the rest of the world following Europe's lead in switching to lead free soldering.
Fine cast does feel like a stop gap measure however, plastics do simply make far more sense but the total change will likely take 10 plus years when you look at the shear number of units that currently are metal,and i dont know if we will ever see named characters as plastics... but never say never.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

I cant see 'named' characters ever being in plastic, they simply dont lend themselves to the medium.

What I mean by that is that its fine to do space marine commanders in plastic, or wizards in plastic, because what you get is a body and about 50 different combinations of parts to make the model you want.

however individual named characters are 'one off' models, they dont require additional bits and if you look at them on the fincast sprue you see how small the material content is.

If they make a plastic mold for that model they need to be able to sell far more than they sell of the current metal versions to make the mold pay for itself.

Frankly, I cant see it happening - I can see 90% of units going over to plastic, but the special characters and really uncommon units will always be in some form of resin or metal.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> I cant see 'named' characters ever being in plastic, they simply dont lend themselves to the medium.
> 
> What I mean by that is that its fine to do space marine commanders in plastic, or wizards in plastic, because what you get is a body and about 50 different combinations of parts to make the model you want.
> 
> however individual named characters are 'one off' models, they dont require additional bits and if you look at them on the fincast sprue you see how small the material content is.


You could just have a commander kit with the stuff to make them a Special character too. I don't think it would be too hard to pull off.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I cant see 'named' characters ever being in plastic, they simply dont lend themselves to the medium.
> 
> What I mean by that is that its fine to do space marine commanders in plastic, or wizards in plastic, because what you get is a body and about 50 different combinations of parts to make the model you want.
> 
> ...


You might want to take a look at those Storm of Magic character models. Each one is on a single sprue, with no options or additional parts. Kaldor Draigo has more optional bits than the new Sorceress. Plastic special characters would be easier to chop up and combine with other models, so there's potential for people who don't play the relevant army to still pick them up.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> You could just have a commander kit with the stuff to make them a Special character too. I don't think it would be too hard to pull off.


I wouldnt buy it.

The reason why I say that is that the plastic commanders always look 'generic' - they area always a normal body with 'bitz' that make them look flash.

They never look like one coherant model and the bitz always stand away from the body. EG - cloaks - with plastic cloaks it will always billow out from the model to make sure that it can be used with any body. With specifically sculpted models this is not the case, all the bits are part of the model and they all 'fit'.

The plastic boxed models are a massive step down in quality compared to the individually sculpted models.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I wouldnt buy it.
> 
> The plastic boxed models are a massive step down in quality compared to the individually sculpted models.


hmm some areas i will admit, but the newer plastics are much closer to metal sculpts than the standard marine stuff, the cloak on the wolf guard terminators for example could be mistaken as metal, alot of the new plastics have the advantage that because they were developed with CAD the parts can be sculpted like metal and then separated in the computer so they fit together seamlessly so you dont get that stand off you get with older modular plastics like the marines, infact the marine kits are due a serious recut, most of them look very dated next to the plastic chapter kits like wolves,angels and grey knights. 
Plastic characters could be done if they made them generic enough to be used as normal versions too, so for example they could include Marnius Calagar parts in plastic but also include stuff to make a standard terminator captain ?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Majere613 said:


> You might want to take a look at those Storm of Magic character models. Each one is on a single sprue, with no options or additional parts. Kaldor Draigo has more optional bits than the new Sorceress. Plastic special characters would be easier to chop up and combine with other models, so there's potential for people who don't play the relevant army to still pick them up.


I realise that - but they have done it for a special release, so I think they are expecting big enough sales in order to make it worth while.

You never know, if they sell well, then they might well carry it on, personally, I cant see it.



bitsandkits said:


> Plastic characters could be done if they made them generic enough to be used as normal versions too, so for example they could include Marnius Calagar parts in plastic but also include stuff to make a standard terminator captain ?


Thats the problem (for me) that they have to make them generic in order for it to work - and thats why I think they arent as good.

Each to their own I suppose. God for you - more bitz to sell :biggrin:


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

H0RRIDF0RM said:


> I'm friends with a product distributer and I recieve a 20-40% discount on any gaming product I purchase from his store. I placed my pre-order for 14 Gamesworkshop fine cast for the first wave of finecast. When I went to pick up and purchase my finecast pre order I was denied my standard 20-40% discount. My friend explained to me that the finecast models are sold to him just under direct order price and that by offering any kind of discount he was not making any money off of the sale.
> 
> My situation may be isolated but I get the impression that any non gamesworkshop independent retailer will not get finecast cheap. This is probably a contributing factor for refusal to sell the product.


I of course can only speak for Wayland. For us the only issue is quality. Nothing else.


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

Boc said:


> At least as far as the US is concerned, there are far too few and far between GW stores even available. The closest to me is about a 6 hour drive, and when I was in Oklahoma the closest was 5 hours.


Being from South Georgia (in the US), I did not know that GW had stores until I moved to Washington DC and found one in Virginia (completely by accident).


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I've got 4 independent retailers in this very city that sell GW stuff, 3 of which are actual gaming stores... And those three are all within 200 meters of each other.

There's additional ones no more than 20 minutes away by car.

And for some reason GW is opening 15 more stores in this country. Most fairly close to an existing retailer.

... No, I don't understand it either.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> I've got 4 independent retailers in this very city that sell GW stuff, 3 of which are actual gaming stores... And those three are all within 200 meters of each other.
> 
> There's additional ones no more than 20 minutes away by car.
> 
> ...


Wow, should I move over there? I mean, I dont have any stores at all which would be a normal driving distance away... I mean, the closest is like an hour or what away?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Not if it's only about the stores. I mean, this is a thread about Wayland, if you can't easily buy minis locally I'm sure they'll be happy to deliver to your home


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> ... No, I don't understand it either.


Why is that difficult to understand?

GW has seen that there is a lot of interrest in wargaming, thats a higher density of stores than the UK has ever claimed to have.

They just want in on the action.

Its like a town with 8 petrol stations - obviously people need lots of gas - thus dont be surprised to see no. 9 and 10 openning soon.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Its like a town with 8 petrol stations - obviously people need lots of gas - thus dont be surprised to see no. 9 and 10 openning soon.


Followed by 3 and 6 closing soon after that. :wink:


GW have a tried and tested formula of watching what they sell to Independent Stores in an area, when those sales reach a point that will support a GW store they simply open one.

LGS get to do the build up and recruitment locally GW get to sell the LGS stock taking no risk of loss if the sales in the area don't perform. 

Solid business plan, used by a few other large companies across the world.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> Followed by 3 and 6 closing soon after that. :wink:
> .


Absolutely.

And if we move the analogy back to GW - a whole raft of methods will be employed to make sure that shops 1-9 all close in succession leaving them the only one in town.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Ah the cut and thrust of a free market.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Not so solid business plan. People are already used to being loyal to one store over the others. All three also offer different varieties of other games, and I'm already seeing my own favorite pushing non-GW stuff harder - and succeeding. It helps immensely that the other stuff is more affordable to start on... 

So, GW is already having it's independents here trying to move their customers to systems that aren't theirs, so opening stores in an already saturated market *is losing them sales*. And as I said... there's some success at moving to other systems. I'm not exactly jumping to start up a second GW army, for one, and did pick up starter sets for others. Anyone up for a game of Dystopian Wars? :victory:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Not so solid business plan. People are already used to being loyal to one store over the others. All three also offer different varieties of other games, and I'm already seeing my own favorite pushing non-GW stuff harder - and succeeding. It helps immensely that the other stuff is more affordable to start on...
> 
> So, GW is already having it's independents here trying to move their customers to systems that aren't theirs, so opening stores in an already saturated market *is losing them sales*. And as I said... there's some success at moving to other systems. I'm not exactly jumping to start up a second GW army, for one, and did pick up starter sets for others. Anyone up for a game of Dystopian Wars? :victory:


Erm - you made my point for me. They are already having their sales lost by local businesses moving their customers onto other games. Thus by opening their flashy stores with all the stuff that comes with them - they can only GAIN sales.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Nope. The independents will still offer GW (might decrease their stock overall, but they can still order the full range anyway if you ask for something specific). So in the petrol station analogy, GW is opening petrol station no 9 and 10... And thereby causing a market shift to diesel, which their own stations don't offer. They're competing for a decreasing amount of petrol sales, and most of the remaining petrol consumers already have an address where they can make a deal with a discount on that...

As for flashy store with all the stuff that comes with it... I've visited an official GW store exactly once. I was not impressed.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> Nope. The independents will still offer GW (might decrease their stock overall, but they can still order the full range anyway if you ask for something specific). So in the petrol station analogy, GW is opening petrol station no 9 and 10... And thereby causing a market shift to diesel, which their own stations don't offer. They're competing for a decreasing amount of petrol sales, and most of the remaining petrol consumers already have an address where they can make a deal with a discount on that...
> 
> As for flashy store with all the stuff that comes with it... I've visited an official GW store exactly once. I was not impressed.


 
No no - you dont seem to understand at all.

Shops 1, 2 and 3 all offer multipul systems, and as you said, they are pushing the non-GW stuff.

Lets say for example each store sells:

33% GW
66% Other

so that a total of £99 GW and £198 other

IF GW move in and the market doesnt increase, but splits between the new 4 shops:

The three stores still sell 33% GW and 66% other, but GW sells 100% GW.

Thats now: £150 GW and £150 other. 

So GW increased their market share by 50%.

Now, lets assume that by GW opening and taking a loss for a little bit (something they can easily do) but, unfortunately one of the independants cant run at at loss and therefore closes.

Now with the same amount of sales the figures look like this:

33+33+100 = £166 GW and £132 other.


So - by GW opening their store and driving 1 shop out of business (a totally expected result) they increase their sales from £99 to £166 and increase their market share from 33% to 55%.



EDIT - and the GW store is not there to impress you - its there to make parents feel like their darling little kid is not joining some sort of cult - its to impress the parents, not adult gamers.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

uhrr... You don't seem to understand. If the market doesn't increase, that means they're not splitting the 300 over 4 stores, but that GW is trying to get a piece of the 100 that's GW sales, which would be 25 if they manage to get an equal share. Worse, they're competing at GW RRP, where the other stores will generally offer a discount to returning customers.

The whole problem with customers being moved to other systems is that the GW store doesn't - *can't* - offer what the people spending the remaining 200 want to buy.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> uhrr... You don't seem to understand. If the market doesn't increase, that means they're not splitting the 300 over 4 stores, but that GW is trying to get a piece of the 100 that's GW sales, which would be 25 if they manage to get an equal share. Worse, they're competing at GW RRP, where the other stores will generally offer a discount to returning customers.
> 
> The whole problem with customers being moved to other systems is that the GW store doesn't - *can't* - offer what the people spending the remaining 200 want to buy.


No, I disagree - people will buy what they are sold - if they are being pushed by the store (as you yourself have indicated) then the chances are if they are pushed in the opposite direction (EG towards GW) then the GW sales will increase.

I will be proved right - GW have done this time and time again in different areas and it works (most of the time).


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I can say with some degree of certainty that the independents don't fear the coming of GW much. They're annoyed they'll lose some sales in the region, but overall they expect customer loyalty and the lack of other systems in the GW store to mean that the GW store is going to have to build it's own customer base in the end anyway - which is going to be an uphill battle against the independents too, as people looking to enter the hobby will search out a better deal once they realize the money involved (that's one thing you can COUNT on the Dutch to do).


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> I can say with some degree of certainty that the independents don't fear the coming of GW much. They're annoyed they'll lose some sales in the region, but overall they expect customer loyalty and the lack of other systems in the GW store to mean that the GW store is going to have to build it's own customer base in the end anyway - which is going to be an uphill battle against the independents too, as people looking to enter the hobby will search out a better deal once they realize the money involved (that's one thing you can COUNT on the Dutch to do).


Ill bet you at least 1 independant will be out of business within a year of GW opening.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Consider it taken. If they can survive each other they'll survive a GW that's far farther away.


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## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

Shandathe said:


> I can say with some degree of certainty that the independents don't fear the coming of GW much.


They should. I have seen GW move in shops close to other FLGS then stop selling to those FLGS just to gain the entire market share for that region, not just parts.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> I'll bet you at least 1 independant will be out of business within a year of GW opening.


Another bet? I should report you to the RSPCA.


I think it would depend on the ratio of GWther players. I know at my local hobby store GW players are a minority and 'other' games like FoW & MtG seem to be much more popular.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Another bet? I should report you to the RSPCA.
> 
> 
> I think it would depend on the ratio of GWther players. I know at my local hobby store GW players are a minority and 'other' games like FoW & MtG seem to be much more popular.


I don't think so, it depends on the market, what would happen if GW suddenly stops all supplies to that Independent and opens up a GW store close to it, would the loss of GW sales to that independent be the tipping point to kill off his/her business, in this market it doesn't take much to kill off a competitor.

GW B&M and online stores will eventually be the only place to buy GW products, the only real competitor will be EBay or other online auctions sites.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

I think this argument overlooks the quality of experience you get from the indies over GW stores. I have the choice of going to my local chelmsford GW, which I can reach with a 20 minute walk, or going several miles more to Wayland or 4TK...guess where I go and spend my wedge???
Don't get me wrong, I do visit my local GW, but never buy there beyond the odd pot of paint. For me GW stores are a shop front where I choose my goods, then buy it cheaper from an indie (bit like the PC World and Currys effect - both suffering on the high street). Also, due to lack of staffing, my GW often has to close for the day or close down for an hour for lunch - most annoying! I presume GW will properly staff their stores if they do this expansion?


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> I think this argument overlooks the quality of experience you get from the indies over GW stores. I have the choice of going to my local chelmsford GW, which I can reach with a 20 minute walk, or going several miles more to Wayland or 4TK...guess where I go and spend my wedge???
> Don't get me wrong, I do visit my local GW, but never buy there beyond the odd pot of paint. For me GW stores are a shop front where I choose my goods, then buy it cheaper from an indie (bit like the PC World and Currys effect - both suffering on the high street). Also, due to lack of staffing, my GW often has to close for the day or close down for an hour for lunch - most annoying! I presume GW will properly staff their stores if they do this expansion?


Hah, Doncaster is the most local GW to me...it is closed ALL DAY Monday and Tuesday, open for 6 hours Wednesdays and Sundays, 7 hours Fridays, 8 hours Saturdays and 9 Hours Thursdays. I used to take my lad in every Sunday afternoon 4 or 5 years ago. I would sit and paint or chat and have a brew with the store manager whilst my lad played his games. Back then it was still a hobby centre...not anymore!

I must have a look and find out if Donny has a FLGS...anybody know of one?

EDIT: Google didn't turn up anything other than the Wildcats which I already know about. Not a FLGS though. Disappointing really. Closest seems to be Leeds or Wakefield.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow - thats horrendous! Is that an isolated case, or do other heritics have similar stories I wonder?
Maelstrum Games is probably not a million miles from you - spent a weekend their a few months ago - great venue! I was wondering around the store with a beer from their bar drunkenly buying MTG cards at 2am!


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> EDIT: Google didn't turn up anything other than the Wildcats which I already know about. Not a FLGS though. Disappointing really. Closest seems to be Leeds or Wakefield.


not aware of any FLGS in leeds or wakefield, wakefield has the largest GW outside of nottingham and Leeds has a very large GW in the very heart of the city in prime retail country and the local indie model shops are never granted accounts as several have approached me in the past to supply them with GW kits, hobby craft and some other chains also stock GW in leeds and wakefield so they wont want little snot nose indies undercutting them either.
some pretty good and established gaming groups in Leeds and Wakefield, hold game conventions and events each year but they are not really pure GW gamers, they do all sorts including Napoleonic,ancients plus they were running WW2 before anyone had heard of flames of war and such.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

slaaneshy said:


> Wow - thats horrendous! Is that an isolated case, or do other heritics have similar stories I wonder?
> Maelstrum Games is probably not a million miles from you - spent a weekend their a few months ago - great venue! I was wondering around the store with a beer from their bar drunkenly buying MTG cards at 2am!


Wait what? You guys can have a beer in your FLGS? Here, in Canada, no way that could ever happen... Possibly one more reasons why we don't actually play (or buy... or just go to) there.



Phil


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> Wait what? You guys can have a beer in your FLGS? Here, in Canada, no way that could ever happen... Possibly one more reasons why we don't actually play (or buy... or just go to) there.
> 
> 
> 
> Phil


Our moto in the UK is "if a hobby is worth doing its worth doing drunk"


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Now, I'm seriously contemplating moving to the UK... My best friend and I are homebrewers and a big part of 40k is enjoying good beer. Yet another cultural difference (the legality of alcohol in hobby centers) put into light by those discussions!

Phil


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

LEEDS has got the Leeds Wargaming Centre (Nordon House, Meanwood Road) the place I usually haunt which beats GW stores hands down (the owner Craig is an ex empoyee of the evil empire) £1 for a days play or £1.50 on sundays for maintenance of the gaming boards/scenery etc. 

And an honesty box for tuck!


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Beer is Panther Piss. 

To go back onto the topic, it must gall GW not to have a pissant Indie like Wayland able to sell GW products to non EU countries now to return what is essentially their flagship product range this year, not only doing these two things but the world knows about it.

One thing i have to say though Wayland did promise that as of last monday they would put up some stock for their ROW customers, as yet nothing.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Cypher871 said:


> Hah, Doncaster is the most local GW to me...it is closed ALL DAY Monday and Tuesday, open for 6 hours Wednesdays and Sundays, 7 hours Fridays, 8 hours Saturdays and 9 Hours Thursdays. I used to take my lad in every Sunday afternoon 4 or 5 years ago. I would sit and paint or chat and have a brew with the store manager whilst my lad played his games. Back then it was still a hobby centre...not anymore!


Im really lost - why cant you take your son in on sunday anymore? You said its open for 6 hours on a sunday - thats standard UK sunday opening hours.

Have I missed something?


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Im really lost - why cant you take your son in on sunday anymore? You said its open for 6 hours on a sunday - thats standard UK sunday opening hours.
> 
> Have I missed something?


My fault...I should have split my text into paragraphs. The opening times was in response to Slaaneshy's comment about lack of staff.

My comment about going in on Sunday was about the fact that the outlets are just retail stores now rather than bona-fide hobby centres.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Cypher871 said:


> My fault...I should have split my text into paragraphs. The opening times was in response to Slaaneshy's comment about lack of staff.
> 
> My comment about going in on Sunday was about the fact that the outlets are just retail stores now rather than bona-fide hobby centres.


 
No worries.

Can I ask what the difference is? I always run in as fast as possible to GW and then run away again. I get fed up with boring 18 year olds asking me what game I play over and over again.

But as far as I can see, its been like that for at least 10 years with no change. It was a bit different when I worked there at the turn of the century. But thats because I wasnt a nervous spotty 18 year old with no social life and with no concept of personal hygene.

But frankly, I was the only one in the store!


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

Maidel said:


> Can I ask what the difference is? I always run in as fast as possible to GW and then run away again. I get fed up with boring 18 year olds asking me what game I play over and over again.


Maybe if you stayed for more than 10 seconds, then they might remember you and you could have a decent conversation...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

torealis said:


> Maybe if you stayed for more than 10 seconds, then they might remember you and you could have a decent conversation...


Dear god - a 'decent' conversation? 90% of the staff in GW are too nervous to even formulate a sentance properly and they stammer they way into the normal 'lines' that they are forced to ask.

Im not even scary looking, im a slightly round 30 year old who smiles a lot and sometimes carrys around a 1 year old child. Im hardly intimidating.

I think the problem for me is that they are all so young and nervous and I have to make most of the conversation, which is completely the wrong way around, and then I end up feeling sorry for them, which is also utterly wrong.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Dear god - a 'decent' conversation? 90% of the staff in GW are too nervous to even formulate a sentance properly and they stammer they way into the normal 'lines' that they are forced to ask.
> 
> Im not even scary looking, im a slightly round 30 year old who smiles a lot and sometimes carrys around a 1 year old child. Im hardly intimidating.
> 
> I think the problem for me is that they are all so young and nervous and I have to make most of the conversation, which is completely the wrong way around, and then I end up feeling sorry for them, which is also utterly wrong.


My local GW has a varied age range from mid 30's to 16 year olds all with Private Schooling and are very articulate, and memories as sharp as a ceramic knife.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> My local GW has a varied age range from mid 30's to 16 year olds all with Private Schooling and are very articulate, and memories as sharp as a ceramic knife.


sounds like you live near the Village of the damned, do they all have white hair?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> My local GW has a varied age range from mid 30's to 16 year olds all with Private Schooling and are very articulate, and memories as sharp as a ceramic knife.


Cant have 16 year olds as staff, they have an 18 minimum policy due to the age restrictions on the products they sell.

And other than the part time staff, why on earth would people with seriously expensive educations want to work in GW for minimum wage?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Cant have 16 year olds as staff, they have an 18 minimum policy due to the age restrictions on the products they sell.
> 
> And other than the part time staff, why on earth would people with seriously expensive educations want to work in GW for minimum wage?


Passion for the hobby/game probably.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Passion for the hobby/game probably.


And the 50% discount.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

I considered applying for a design position with GW before I left the RAF in 2002 but even the salaries there were piss poor. I briefly looked into it again whilst at Games Day 2008 as they had some of their HR staff there...still not worth it.

God only knows what kind of a pittance the retail staff get...and then of course there are all those monthly targets to hit (*shudders*). Guess I will just have to stay in IT till I retire (which will probably end up being at age 80 the way the government is going). :laugh:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Passion for the hobby/game probably.





Necrosis said:


> And the 50% discount.


Passion and plastic soliders dont pay bills. :biggrin:

Trust me, ive been there. I worked at GW during university. It was minimum wage and effectively you got paid, and then used the money to pay for twice as much of your plastic-crack habit as before...



Cypher871 said:


> I considered applying for a design position with GW before I left the RAF in 2002 but even the salaries there were piss poor. I briefly looked into it again whilst at Games Day 2008 as they had some of their HR staff there...still not worth it.
> 
> God only knows what kind of a pittance the retail staff get...and then of course there are all those monthly targets to hit (*shudders*). Guess I will just have to stay in IT till I retire (which will probably end up being at age 80 the way the government is going). :laugh:


I looked into working in the studio a long time ago after finishing uni - and for the same reasons, never applied. The wages were SO low, it was utterly ridiculous. (and thank god I didnt because moving the nottingham would have changed my life completely!).

Retail staff are on minimum wage. The irony was as a Part timer over the age of 21 I actually got paid more some months than the full timer who was under 21 and thus on lower minimum wage... (obviously I worked more than a couple of hours here and there, especially in holidays).


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Passion for the hobby/game probably.


Or so much family money that they don't need a job which pays enough to live on.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> sounds like you live near the Village of the damned, do they all have white hair?


Actually no.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Finecast eh, more like Miscast!

To be frank; I've only ever been in one GW and that was in London, the Covent Garden one. The bloke there I found to be a nice fellow, talked a bit much but I'm not a talkative person myself so he's just normal. Only experience and it was a decent one.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Beer is Panther Piss.
> 
> To go back onto the topic, it must gall GW not to have a pissant Indie like Wayland able to sell GW products to non EU countries now to return what is essentially their flagship product range this year, not only doing these two things but the world knows about it.
> 
> One thing i have to say though Wayland did promise that as of last monday they would put up some stock for their ROW customers, as yet nothing.


Erm no we didnt, we said we would beging populating once order processing is back to normal. We have a pile of ROW allocated stock in boxes to stockcheck and list once we can spare the satff from packing. As soon as we are completely normal in the next few days, then the process starts.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Sounds like the GW policy changes caused a lot of models to be sold and shipped over at Wayland... Except for Finecast, obviously


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Shandathe said:


> Sounds like the GW policy changes caused a lot of models to be sold and shipped over at Wayland... Except for Finecast, obviously


i dont know if youve seen the pics of all that delivery on their facebook, but it was freaking crazy XD

like a sea of brown cardboard boxes


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

rich1231 said:


> Erm no we didnt, we said we would beging populating once order processing is back to normal. We have a pile of ROW allocated stock in boxes to stockcheck and list once we can spare the satff from packing. As soon as we are completely normal in the next few days, then the process starts.


Thanks for the clarrification. I can't wait to see you product list.


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