# books in which loyalists spank chaos



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

on more than one occasion, I've heard the accusation that chaos gets the short end of the stick in many BL novels with Imperial protagonists 

could anyone point out a few specific examples?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gaunts Ghosts, Most loyalist Space Marine novels? The Space Marine Battle novels.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Gaunts Ghosts


well, I guess it has IG sniping CSM



> Most loyalist Space Marine novels


I hear this claim quite often, but which ones? could you name at least a few titles...not just titles in which SM and CSM go at it, but titles in which SM walk all over their chaos counterparts 

in my experience, loyalist SM novels have SM fighting but not pwning CSM...or CSM aren't even the main antagonists 



> The Space Marine Battle novels.


really? not that many have CSM as the villains (_Hunt for Voldorius_ does spring to mind though)


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

SMB: Yep, only _Hunt for Voldemort_ has Chaos as the baddie.

Loyalists Stomping Chaos: _Dead Sky, Black Sun_, _The Chapter's Due_.

Loyalists beating Chaos after certain losses/magical intervention: _Nocturne_/_The Chapter's Due_/_Legion of the Damned_

I really can't think of much offhand that supports it. The only 'really' silly one that I've read (and I've not read _Soul Drinkers_ or _Gaunt's Ghosts_ series) is _Dead Sky, Black Sun_. And the Grey Knight novels, to an extent, but even then I'm not convinced they qualify. They're not silly so much as...impressive.

Your friend's a nit. Call him on it: which novels present this? If there's tons and tons, it should be dead easy.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I just finished reading the word bearers omnibus and here the loyalists are getting owned, 
also in the night lord book the loyalists get killed rather easily


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Xisor said:


> SMB: Yep, only _Hunt for Voldemort_ has Chaos as the baddies


Really? And who might the Space Wolves be fighting in _Battle of the Fang_? Or _Legion of the Damned_ for that matter(which incidently you mentioned after).

Gaunts Ghost regularly curb stomp Chaos, hell the second book is pretty much a collection of individuals kicking the shit out of superior forces abs as for the ending of said book....

Can't say I've read the Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Grey Knights or Ultramarine series, but from what I've read on reviews and forums they all seem to involve Loyalists trumping chaos. 

Even the HH series. Hell they took a beating themselves but _A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns_ end with the Vlka Fenryka pretty much annihilating the vast majority of the XV Legion. _Fallen Angels_ has the Dark Angels annihilate an attacking force of superior numbers. _Battle of the Abyss_ has a handful of loyalists destroy one of the largest and most dangerous starships ever made, thereby preventing a massacre. In the short story _Iron Within_ the loyalists again defeat an impossibly larger number of enemy.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Xisor said:


> SMB: Yep, only _Hunt for Voldemort_ has Chaos as the baddie.


_"The Gildar Rift"_? 



Thou in that one Chaos was quite often, um, well, look at the cover art.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So actually fully half of the current SMB novels have chaos as the antagonist.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

How does OP define ''spank''? Then we have a discussion.

If the loyalists are given a rough time but ultimately defeat Chaos forces in spectacular oblivion, does that equate to a spanking?

Because I doubt anything has been published by Black Library for ...some time, that can be so two-dimensional as to include loyalist forces _ annihilating_ Chaos forces throughout the novel. 

The second Gaunt's Ghosts novel was terrible, because that's all it featured. I'm not even mentioning the Eldar stuff. On the contrary it did offer development for the Ghosts themselves...


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

in storm of Iron the loyalists are reduced to amateurs
the same goes for the word bearers books 
also in the nightl lord books loyalists are rather weak 
the BA books are really realy lame, fabius steals teh blood of sanguinus and gets away with it
In the chapters due the iron warriors caused major damage in the umtramar system I would not regard that as getting owned.
in dead sky black sun the CSM did it to themselves
in the grey knight books there is hardly any marine vs marine action
in a lot of the short stories chaos seems to be far superior,
the alpha legion taking over half a chapter
I remember a story of a BL marine killing the entire legacy of an imperial fist marine.
In general I find that the CSM are portrayed as more powerfull and cunning compared the loyalist fraction


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

*facepalm*

Yeah, TGR, LotD and Fang all feature Chaos baddies. Woops. For some reason I thought BotF was the story _Runes_ - Eldar & Wolves!

Oh deary me. Well, if it's any mitigation, I've not yet finished _The Gildar Rift_ and everyone's forgetting the _Architect of Fate_ eBooks!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, I remember people complaining about how CSM get shafted in BL books...
Maybe in the older books? Cuz that's definitely not the case anymore

Judging by the newer stuff, CSM are generally portrayed as more powerful and deadly. The treatment they receive nowadays definitely does them justice. 



piemelke said:


> - in storm of Iron the loyalists are reduced to amateurs
> - the same goes for the word bearers books
> - also in the nightl lord books loyalists are rather weak
> - the BA books are really realy lame, fabius steals teh blood of sanguinus and gets away with it
> ...


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I believe quite a few fans would like BL to refrain from exploring the HH in too much detail, out of fear that all the mysteries would be revealed





MontytheMighty said:


> on more than one occasion, I've heard the accusation that chaos gets the short end of the stick in many BL novels with Imperial protagonists
> 
> could anyone point out a few specific examples?


Could you give us the sources for what you've ''heard''/seen in future? Because our responses are limited without knowing the context. If those complaining about Black Library's Horus Heresy tarnishing the mystery have been in the hobby for a considerable span of time, then it's clearly their own situational bias and nostalgia. Are they complaining because they dislike change or because they have a valid argument? _For example_ (don't need another debate on this subject, when it was cleared up originally).

Likewise for this thread. If a younger hobbyist is complaining about Chaos being spanked in Black Library publications - and yes, you did mention multiple people - then knowledge of this context would allow us to better articulate our responses.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

bobss said:


> Could you give us the sources for what you've ''heard''/seen in future? Because our responses are limited without knowing the context.


I got this impression during my time on the Warseer board
...unfortunately I was perma-banned from that forum for "trying to circumvent the policy against foul language". I typed something like "fu**ing"


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

_The Chapter's Due_, really just had the Ultramarines dancing through scores of csm.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Surely the thing is that the Imperial forces _have_ to win most of the battles, because they are losing the war. Too many crushing defeats and BL would break the fluff...

When they do win it is usually phyrric to some extent - gene seed is lost, pre-heresy or heresy era tech is lost, vital worlds are devastated, heroes are slain etc. Chaos never, ever suffers any loss that actually matters, there are always more CSMs, and pretty much infinite daemons and cultists, but Imperial (and Eldar) forces are running out.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I got this impression during my time on the Warseer board
> ...unfortunately I was perma-banned from that forum for "trying to circumvent the policy against foul language". I typed something like "fu**ing"


Don't sweat it. It's Warseer. Need I say more? :headbutt:

Hopefully Heresy has been treating you better.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I tend to agree with Tywin, everytile the loyalists win but they have to sacrifice a lot, e.g. the UM in the chapter's due lose the Caesar and a buch of planets in the ULTRALAR system, nearly half the chapter gets destroyed, that is serious damage and not just a walk in the park.
In the dark creed the white consuls lose halve the chapter, is is discussed that the black consuls have been destroyed out by the WB.
In blood reaver the marines errant are nearly destroyed,
In a short story it was desribed how an entire chapter has been taken over by the alpha legion,
even worse in storm of Iron the second largest gene seed bank in the empirium has been destroyed, darn that is a tremendous blow.
I have not yet heard of a loyalist SM attack on a CSM planet it is only coming from the opposite direction. The only one I am aware of is (in the 40 K setting) that of the BA going after Fabius and failing utterly (and lysander his revenge).
I find this very frustrating (I root for the BA).
For that reason I found the dialogue between talos and abbadon in in soul hunter very very refreshing.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Who said the Loyalists are badly represented in the Night Lord series? (SPOILERS AHEAD)

I think he balanced them really, really well. 

I got the sense that the Night Lords were deliberately picking soft targets (such as raiding that asteroid planet where they find a key character) and when they are assaulting the Space Marine chapter base they are infiltrating it, using stealth, sewing confusion, not just smacking them in the face as hard as they can.

Plus I thought there was great tension when Abaddon ordered the Night Lords (along with others) to protect his ship from an incoming Blood Angels task force, and when the Blood angels boarded the Night Lords ship it was kind of like, "right you've picked on soft squishy targets, now your in for a proper fight".

I thought the whole series has been fantastically balanced so far.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Actually I was under the impression the BA did not pose that much of a threat , the marines errant did not come across as naive.
Furthermore if you read the story regarding the NL and the salamanders in one of the short story books, here the Salamanders first company lost a fair amount of termi's also in a naive fashion. It might actually be a fair reasoning to say that millenia old chaos enhanced cheating marines outperform standard juvenile loyalist marines who are predictable and often too honor bound.
Again for me the NL books give a refreshing look on the CSM legions in the sense that they are all going down the drain


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

piemelke said:


> Actually I was under the impression the BA did not pose that much of a threat


Yeah, I think the main reason is the author _never describes_ any NL deaths at the hands of BA (other than the BA dreadnought). NL casualties are only mentioned in passing. Consequently, the BA come off as rather weak because their deadliness is never highlighted with some descriptive prose. 

We have Talos carving up hapless BA with a BA relic blade, mentions of Malcharion single-handedly defeating three loyalist champions. There's really nothing to match on the loyalist side. The impression I got was the NL are slowly being worn down by attrition, but man for man they stomp their loyalist counterparts. 



piemelke said:


> if you read the story regarding the NL and the salamanders in one of the short story books, here the Salamanders first company lost a fair amount of termi's also in a naive fashion.


I was rather aghast at this "balance"...



D-A-C said:


> when they are assaulting the Space Marine chapter base they are infiltrating it, using stealth, sewing confusion, not just smacking them in the face as hard as they can.


Being owned by stealth can be just as "unbalanced" as being stomped in the face. The use of stealth doesn't necessarily make a victory balanced...just sayin'



D-A-C said:


> when the Blood angels boarded the Night Lords ship it was kind of like, "right you've picked on soft squishy targets, now your in for a proper fight".


Not really...the BA were wiped out to a man. The NL suffered fewer than 30 casualties among their warriors. The BA dreadnought couldn't even redeem itself against the NL dreadnought who had bested it in life. In comparison, First Claw takes out 7 rival NL later on (whereas the entire BA boarding party couldn't even kill 30).

The balance is not horrendous, but the BA do get the shorter end of the stick.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Being owned by stealth can be just as "unbalanced" as being stomped in the face. The use of stealth doesn't necessarily make a victory balanced...just sayin'


What the Dickens are you 'just saying''?


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Problem?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

The BA indeed get the shorter end of the stick certainly if you regard that they are shock oriented


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't like how just one member of First Claw has died in 3 books (and he perished Leeroy Jenkins-ing a Dreadnought, and so probably deserved to die) yet they've fought through a huge battleship with some of the best boarding combat units in the system defending it, a gigantic battle against the Mechanicus in which they took down platoons upon platoons of Skitarii and a Warhound titan, and then butchered seventh claw, before going into a Fortress-Monastery and slaughtering the PDF.

Mind you, I don't know who would die. Mercutian, maybe. I wanted Uzas gone until the end of Blood Reaver when he threw a Chainaxe at a Nurgle Possessed-Daemon-Neverborn-thing. It looked like it's head had been in a blender. Anyone who can do that deserves to live, or at least die last (which is apparently what's going to happen).

I miss you Vandred.

Midnight


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I don't like how just one member of First Claw has died in 3 books (and he perished Leeroy Jenkins-ing a Dreadnought, and so probably deserved to die) yet they've fought through a huge battleship with some of the best boarding combat units in the system defending it, a gigantic battle against the Mechanicus in which they took down platoons upon platoons of Skitarii and a Warhound titan, and then butchered seventh claw, before going into a Fortress-Monastery and slaughtering the PDF.
> 
> Mind you, I don't know who would die. Mercutian, maybe. I wanted Uzas gone until the end of Blood Reaver when he threw a Chainaxe at a Nurgle Possessed-Daemon-Neverborn-thing. It looked like it's head had been in a blender. Anyone who can do that deserves to live, or at least die last (which is apparently what's going to happen).
> 
> ...


First Claw have never, in all their time, been in a fair fight. They run away from every chance of a fair fight. Skitarii are nothing against Space Marines anyway, and would First Claw even be normal Chaos Marines? Or Chosen? Or.... what? 

A Land Raider, a Thunderhawk Transporter, and the remains of two squads of Chaos Marines with melta bombs easily outgun a Warhound Titan suffering in a confined space. Again, the fight wasn't fair at all.

The rest of those battles either had significant situational advantages (or First Claw wouldn't have fought them at all) like striking from ambush, having home court advantage, or were against humans, who essentially had no chance at all. Night Lord lore is replete with examples of the Legion only attacking when they vastly outnumber, outgun, outgear weaker enemies. And even then, they've lost a leg, two arms, half a face, and one actual person between the seven of them, in the course of only two novels and a short story. Like, what happens the moment they actually encounter another Marine squad? Of actual equals that they can't take by surprise? They hide behind Red Corsair Terminators, and then run away.

While everyone's perception of 40K is different (some people will say a Marine is worth 10 men, others 100 - and both are right), I'm pretty secure in First Claw's lucky streak according to both published lore of the setting and, handily, the game's rules for the bigger/vehicle-ish moments.

Besides, First Claw are screwed anyway. That much is clear at the end of _Blood Reaver_, and with the _Void Stalker_ blurb:

_"The hunters have become the hunted. The Night Lords flee to the dark fringes of the Imperium to escape their relentless pursuers – the eldar of Craftworld Ulthwé. Their flight takes them to the carrion world of Tsagualsa, where their primarch died and their Legion was broken. There, history will repeat itself as a deadly assassin stalks the shadows, and the Night Lords are drawn into a battle they are destined to lose."_


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Not really...the BA were wiped out to a man. The NL suffered fewer than 30 casualties among their warriors. The BA dreadnought couldn't even redeem itself against the NL dreadnought who had bested it in life. In comparison, First Claw takes out 7 rival NL later on (whereas the entire BA boarding party couldn't even kill 30).
> 
> The balance is not horrendous, but the BA do get the shorter end of the stick.


I don't really see that, myself. They attack without home court advantage, and still manage (as noted after the battle, in _Blood Reaver_ - there's no post-battle in _Soul Hunter_) to kill _hundreds_ of crew, and dozens of Night Lords. They also incite a potential rebellion in the human crew, because one person in particular is killed, and the crew are on the verge of freaking out.

And there were only a few Blood Angel squads on board. What, 20-30 warriors? The Night Lords had 50 _before_ they took in the reinforcements from 11th Company...). So the Blood Angels were hugely outnumbered, yet they still did all that. In that light, you could easily have (and I've seen) Night Lord players saying "the Blood Angels did so much freaking damage...". First Claw defend their ship with significant casualties, and they flee the larger battle before they can get their asses kicked.

People find what they look for in these matters. It's why, while some criticism is valid, I'll never really take "First Claw are overpowered" very seriously. I guess there's also the fact it's not something most people say, especially not as part of the bigger picture.



MontytheMighty said:


> The BA dreadnought couldn't even redeem itself against the NL dreadnought who had bested it in life.


Another great example of how being wrong can almost become a meme. 

Look at what you write above, now look at what actually happened: Both dreadnoughts are equally ruined after that fight. Malcharion is as fucked up as Raguel. They're both on the deck, absolutely wrecked. Except one coffin is peeled open, and the remains are killed. The other is just left to die. But the dreadnoughts ended that fight on exactly even terms. Their shells were wrecked, and the pilots were dying.

See what I mean? People choose what to see, whether it's right or not.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

piemelke said:


> Furthermore if you read the story regarding the NL and the salamanders in one of the short story books, here the Salamanders first company lost a fair amount of termi's also in a naive fashion.


Weird how perception works, though. Those linked stories came about because me and Nick said it'd be cool to write something like that. All I said to him for direction was "Don't kill Lucoryphus. Kill all the other Raptors if you like, fine by me."

So he wrote his half first. Any losses were chosen by him (and as I recall, the Night Lords only get to kill one Terminator themselves, at the cost of most of the Bleeding Eyes). The Night Lords come out of that battle significantly worse off than the Salamanders - which is why First Claw show up later to steal the Terminator armour, to scrape some dignity from the Bleeding Eyes' solid defeat.

Talos even orders them to run away, because they don't have a chance against Terminators on a space hulk in a fair fight. But they don't, and they pay the price in blood.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> People find what they look for in these matters.


Fair enough, we all have our biases 



> Another great example of how being wrong can almost become a meme.
> Look at what you write above, now look at what actually happened: Both dreadnoughts are equally ruined after that fight. Malcharion is as fucked up as Raguel. They're both on the deck, absolutely wrecked.


What I meant is that when they're both marines, Malcharion utterly defeats Raguel (puts him on the dreadnought candidate list). 
When they're both dreadnoughts, does Raguel get some redemption by beating Malcharion? Nope...the best he can do is fight Malcharion to a draw. Raguel then dies a rather pointless death. 
Yeah, both dreadnoughts are wrecked, except Malcharion is on a friendly vessel and the NL even talk about repairing him.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the answer, 
regarding the BA NL stuff I guess I hoped to see some real BA action and not the red ultramarines with anger issues that appear in the BA books,


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Word Bearers are walked over fairly easily in the Blood Angels books by Swallow. They're gunned down almost monotonously.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

That is totally correct, but dear Jim managed to portray the BA as a bunch of red UM with fangs and the WB as a collection of esoteric looneys, nah those books should have never been written,for me they are at the same level as the dawn of war books. Again, please let somebody else have a go at the BA or an BA affiliated chapter ?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree, i didn't think they were much good but nobody had brought them up yet and they were relevant to the question. Swallow's characterisation was fine i just found the events themselves implausible. My suspension of disbelief was stretched one too many times.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Besides, First Claw are screwed anyway. That much is clear at the end of _Blood Reaver_, and with the _Void Stalker_ blurb:
> 
> _"The hunters have become the hunted. The Night Lords flee to the dark fringes of the Imperium to escape their relentless pursuers – the eldar of Craftworld Ulthwé. Their flight takes them to the carrion world of Tsagualsa, where their primarch died and their Legion was broken. There, history will repeat itself as a deadly assassin stalks the shadows, and the Night Lords are drawn into a battle they are destined to lose."_


Damn. I was hoping that the series wasn't going to end with kill-em-all. I've grown quite fond of First Claw, and it would have been fun to read about Talos restoring 10th Company, and possibly encountering Zho Sahaal.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

piemelke said:


> That is totally correct, but dear Jim managed to portray the BA as a bunch of red UM with fangs and the WB as a collection of esoteric looneys, nah those books should have never been written,for me they are at the same level as the dawn of war books. Again, please let somebody else have a go at the BA or an BA affiliated chapter ?


Couldn't agree with you more. I have only read the first omnibus of Swallow's BA series and don't plan on picking up any more of his writings. I found it a chore to get through even those two books. It saddens me that he will be doing their first book in the Horus Heresy series. From the plot synopsis it sounds like it will be his usual stuff and I'm doubting it has much to do with the actual heresy storyline.


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