# Who are your top 4 villains from 40k?



## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

For the purposes of this thread, 40k includes 30k. Who would you say are truly the top 4 most significant villains of the universe and why?


----------



## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

The Emperor

I dont think there are true villains in 40k or if it was one then it'd be either the chaos gods or the eldar for fucking a whole in reality and I hate the eldar and the gods are too two dimensional (typical of deities)

But I love the emperor, hes so beyond human yet still a human at heart, he still makes mistakes, is proud and dares to defy gods, he has such a clear view of what he has to achieve, what he has to sacrifice and he lies, he schemes, he manipulates everyone and forces them to do his bidding to achieve his goals but all of this falls apart because hes still human, hes too proud to even think there's a crack in his plan or that the gods wont act, too selfish even though hes doing it for mankind.. Hes a great character..

(the above is considering the heresy isnt part of some sort of megaplan devised by the emperor)


----------



## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

there arn't any villains in 40k just different points of view


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

That really depends on your perspective. I'm assuming you're thinking in terms of most destructive to the Imperium. My top four along that line would be Abaddon the Despoiler, Duke Sliscus the Serpent, Imotekh the Stormlord and The Hive Mind. There are probably a few Daemon Princes that should make the list but I'm not sure of their names. But these 4 represent the big threats to the Imperium.


----------



## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Yeah, everyone's evil in the 41st Mellenium, just some are more evil than others. However, in a similar method to what _Archon Dan_ said, I'll be stating the following: 

Imotekh the Stormlord
Abaddon the Destroyer
30k, and to an extent 40k: Erebus of the Word Bearers Legion
Technically I can put Talos of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's _Night Lords_ novels in there as well, because he's awesome. Although he may not have 14 Black Crusades done like Abaddon, he does have a really good trilogy of novels.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Erebus (twisted little fuck)
Lucius
Abaddon
Fabius Bile.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Erebus
Abaddon
Fabius Bile
Huron Blackheart


----------



## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I'd say it was:
The Hive Mind (Obvious reasons: Devour everything)
Erebus/Lorgar (Started the Heresy)
The Emperor (Xenophobic, psychopathic, vague, somewhat unhelpful, his armour is too fancy - it makes other people jealous, now he looks kinda weird, etc...)


----------



## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Just going to point out it wasnt Erebus who started the Heresy, it was Kor Pheron as he was the one who reminded Lorgar of the 'old religion' back on their homeworld. Erebus just helped Kor Pheron convince lorgar to check it out.


----------



## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry to do this, but Matt Ward anyone?


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Ghazgkull, coz da biggest is alwayz da bestest.

Fabius Bile, because he chose his own path.

Lelith Hespirax, what's not to love about the baddest dominatrix in over 40 millenia.

Warsmith Honsou, one of the best chaos characters from BL to date. He seems to be the only one with a plan.

For all of you that chose Abbadon, why? He's been a massive flop.Time for him to step aside, or be stepped aside.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I will say; 

Abaddon; Successful or not, he has the entire Imperium afraid of his very name and is persistent to say the very least. 

Imotekh; A guy with this level of dedication and the resources at his disposal is definitely deserving of mention. 

Huron Blackheart; Likewise, a pretty big villain on the Eastern Galactic Front. 

Asdubrael Vect; By default due to being perhaps the most evil and powerful motherfucker his race has ever seen.


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

From an unbiased perspective the emperor really is the true villain in 40k. Most of the names mentioned only exist directly because of his actions or in response to them. Chaos wouldnt have gained any legions or primarchs if big E hadn't created them and the imperium wouldn't be attracting tyrannids if it wasn't for the astronomican. Really, I can't think of anything other than the eldar fall that he didn't make worse.


----------



## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Ghazgkull, coz da biggest is alwayz da bestest.
> 
> Fabius Bile, because he chose his own path.
> 
> ...


I would sat Ghazgkull is in the same boat as Abaddon. Both are incredibly destructive to the Imperium. But neither seem to be able to hold on to a victory or any territory gained.


Time for the flip-side I believe. Rather than most destructive to the Imperium, say most destructive to the galaxy. The Hive Mind, Urien Rakarth, The Grey Knights and Inquisitor Kryptman. The last is the guy responsible for causing as much destruction as Hive Fleet Leviathan in an effort to stop it.


----------



## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

May as well chime in with mine.

#1. Kor Phaeron. And the next guy on the list is not even close. This is the guy who _really_ caused the Horus Heresy. He's the guy who started the dominos falling and so ultimately caused the largest amount of suffering the galaxy has ever seen. He's also still kicking ass routinely in modern 40k. Pure moustache-twirling villainy.

#2. The Hive Mind. If you take the estimations of the possible size of the full Tyranid biomass at face value, there is no military force that really comes close in terms of raw danger to the galaxy. Honestly, it's difficult to see how they don't ultimately swallow the whole thing with ease, long term.

#3. Abaddon. Yeah, he's not super successful but he's relentless. And he was also instrumental in prosecuting the Heresy in the first place. He's basically the frontman for the Archenemy, so it's hard to think of a more perfect definition of "villain".

#4. Kharn. He's the personification of the Chaos warrior. All badass, and rage and madness and no-giving-of-fucks. Homeboy took an unarmored extended beatdown from Angron himself and lived. He wins the #4 slot because of the purity of his evil.


I would list Ghazkull, but he is just way too cool to truly be a villain.


----------



## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, the Emperor is really the only true villain here. Everyone else is just doing what they do naturally, but Big E is manipulating the entire galaxy into doing what he wants it to do. The Emprah's ascension to godhood is the ultimate goal here, and only Chaos seems to be aware of that; they're really trying their best to stop him. Somehow the Emperor seems to actually scare the hell out of the minions of Chaos, and that's some crazy stuff right there.


----------



## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

I Don't get all this Hive Mind comments. Sure the nids are dangerous, but its hardly a villain any more than a hive of fire ants, they simply are what they are.

As for Villains, well I'd say...

Ghagzkull... Meanest Toughest Ork out to cause problems...

Abaddon... Sure his success rates are questionable, assuming you judge his actions as a failure and not to his own plan. But show me any villain that is allowed to win. 

Ahriman... Completely different to the others, cerebral and Calculating. Think the Riddler from batman but with the capability to crush your skull with one hand. 

Cypher... A mysterious one. Just what is he up to but its bound to be no good. And he always slips away.


----------



## The Golden Sons (Apr 15, 2012)

Well, I suppose someone has to say them:
1/2/3: Tzeentch/Khorne/Nurgle in order of personal Preference.
4. Emperor

My number 5 would be slaanesh, weakest of the chaos gods. But still pretty badass.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Has to be Abaddon the Despoiler. 



The Golden Sons said:


> My number 5 would be slaanesh, weakest of the chaos gods. But still pretty badass.


For the record, Slaanesh is not the weakest of the Chaos Gods.


----------



## Ryao (Oct 6, 2010)

ZENOS!
HERITICS!
MORE ZENOS!

So.....pretty much anyone not fawning over the Zombie god of the imperium.


----------



## The Golden Sons (Apr 15, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Has to be Abaddon the Despoiler.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, Slaanesh is not the weakest of the Chaos Gods.


Please correct me if I'm wrong (my fluff is always in need of polishing) but wasn't his legion almost completely annihilated and fragmented by the other gods?
And I would argue that his power source, pleasure, is weaker then any other trait possessed by the other gods. He is also the newest.


Of course, my 0.02$, IMHO, etc. is there anything that i should know about?


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

The Golden Sons said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong (my fluff is always in need of polishing) but wasn't his legion almost completely annihilated and fragmented by the other gods?
> None of the Gods have a "legion", they just gain various followers such as the Emperor's Children. In Chaos terms, that is of little consequence to the Great Game, as they are merely mortal followers, so does not contribute anything of great significance to his power.
> And I would argue that his power source, pleasure, is weaker then any other trait possessed by the other gods. He is also the newest.
> Not necessarily just pleasure, but vanity and all sorts of other personal emotions that can be experienced. It makes it much easier for him to gain followers for his incursions in the mortal realm. Also, "newest" is a paradox as Slaanesh has always existed, yet was born at the Fall of the Eldar. Therefore, that term can't really be applied to him.
> ...


That's my basic knowledge, so I'll wait for someone with a better understanding to turn up.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't get people saying the Emperor, he sees a clear and present danger, he uses everything at his disposal, all his ingenuity, 50,000 years of his life, the last 10k strapped to a chair in excruciating pain, all for humanity.

I mean to be fair even the heresy wasn't that bad, he could have defeated them all, at the very least all of their actions would have been null and void in time were it not for Magnus and his destroying of the web way.
If it wasn't for him humanity would have been enslaved by aliens and chaos.
Sure he deceived people, but who else even cares about humanity? Who of those that do care has the power or foresight he does? Sure he made mistakes, but not for lack of trying, he pretty much alone went against the combined powers of the warp and gave them a run for their money.

of course through deceit he created the mechanicum, but without that deceit there would be no science and everything that is derived from science.


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

The Golden Sons said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong (my fluff is always in need of polishing) but wasn't his legion almost completely annihilated and fragmented by the other gods?
> And I would argue that his power source, pleasure, is weaker then any other trait possessed by the other gods. He is also the newest.
> 
> 
> Of course, my 0.02$, IMHO, etc. is there anything that i should know about?


Slaanesh's power is pleasure certainly but also perfection and far more importantly decadence and EXCESS. Since all the other chaos gods in some manner exist in a state of excess (Khorne in bloodshed and war, Tzeentch in scheming and knowledge, and Nurgle in despair and fear of death) Slaanesh is far stronger than most think. Given time he/she/it could become the strongest of all the gods since any act of excess fuels it.


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> I don't get people saying the Emperor, he sees a clear and present danger, he uses everything at his disposal, all his ingenuity, 50,000 years of his life, the last 10k strapped to a chair in excruciating pain, all for humanity.
> 
> I mean to be fair even the heresy wasn't that bad, he could have defeated them all, at the very least all of their actions would have been null and void in time were it not for Magnus and his destroying of the web way.
> If it wasn't for him humanity would have been enslaved by aliens and chaos.
> ...


Not to pick at straws but how do we know any of that? Chaos didn't seem to be as directly involved with humanity and corrupting it since they were content to let humans to develop to their full potential and fuel the gods power. This is backed up by the fact that while warlocks are seen fighting against the emperor on terra during the unification wars they are by no means well spread and most worlds seem to be relatively free of corruption. 

The reason I, and perhaps others, choose the Emperor is that he was the one that chose to kick the hornet's nest. Had he not things might have gone better or maybe worst. Regardless of possibility his actions gave chaos its strongest servants and also created a stalemate that caused a long war that only served to increase chaos' (and the Emperor's possibly) power for ten thousand years of warfare. He created the Primarchs of whom half have turned traitor, he created the astartes legions of whom half turned traitor with their primarchs, and he directs the astronomican that is drawing the tyranids into conflict with humanity. For that matter his xenophobic philosophy has led the Imperium into open war with eldar and tau alike, both of whom could bolster the Imperium. 

In short it is only because of his rise and his actions that this whole setting really exists and a large portion of the blame lies with him for the ills that assail mankind. 

.....Personal opinion etc


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> Not to pick at straws but how do we know any of that? Chaos didn't seem to be as directly involved with humanity and corrupting it since they were content to let humans to develop to their full potential and fuel the gods power.


Indeed they were content to let humanity develop into its role as slaves and cows. God forbid that someone should try to free us from these shackles, just because we weren't aware of them.



> Regardless of possibility his actions gave chaos its strongest servants and also created a stalemate that caused a long war that only served to increase chaos' (and the Emperor's possibly) power for ten thousand years of warfare. He created the Primarchs of whom half have turned traitor, he created the astartes legions of whom half turned traitor with their primarchs, and he directs the astronomican that is drawing the tyranids into conflict with humanity.


Chaos is not significantly stronger now than it has been at any prior point in history. The Gods are still primarily focused on their own internal struggles and the power and scope of their mortal servants is still contained by those that oppose them. True, the Emperor did give them their most powerful servants, but he still has some of his own. Chaos has half the Legions, but who has the rest? Still humanity and thus is humanity still able to combat and contain Chaos. 

I also like how you can blame the Emperor for the Tyranids. The Astronomicon is the means by which humanity can travel the galaxy, the means by which the Imperium exists. Without it their would be no humanity for the Tyranids to conflict with. Further, there is no real proof that the Astronomicon is the reason the Tyranids are here, beyond the speculation of some individuals with little to no idea how the Tyranids work. Clearly they are not in any hurry to get to Terra, so it does not seem particularly likely to me that it is the entire reason they are here.



> For that matter his xenophobic philosophy has led the Imperium into open war with eldar and tau alike, both of whom could bolster the Imperium.


The Eldar, who don't give two shits about the lives of mon-keigh and would willingly (even happily) sacrifice billions of humans to save a dozen eldar? Or the Tau, whose empire is so mighty it barely registers on the scope of the Imperium? But what of Dark Eldar, the Orks, the countless other alien races who seek nothing but the enslavement or death of the human race? The Emperor is xenophobic because the xenos have left him no choice. For mankind to survive, all others must perish.

The only reason the Imperium, and mankind, survive to this day is because the Emperor was willing to do what needed to be done. He is, at worst, an Anti-Hero.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

As a Race:
The Dark Eldar 
The Orks
The C'tan 

As an individual:

Typhus (that campaign he launched during the last black crusade was epic)
Fabius Bile (that crap with the Blood Angels was pretty brutal)
Ahriman 
Lorgar Aurelian


I know some of you are wondering why I selected these individuals. True evil, IMO, comes from making a distinct choice to do harm or victimize others. Not a being that is insane or acting in a devilish manner because it's perpetuating what they are (Chaos Gods, Abbaddon,etc). Abbaddon was driven insane and believes he is stopping the unjust rule of the Emperor and his followers. While he is doing unspeakable things, let's remember that ALL astartes were created for war which in itself is unspeakably horrible. The Gods are sentient but have not choice but to perpetuate the emotional energies that brought them into their current existence. It's all they are and all they know who to do.

The Typhus made the decision to succumb to Chaos willingly. Everything he's done has been his choice. Fabius Bile is doing much the same in his pursuit of genetic perfection. While Ahriman started off with a noble goal, he has since descended into a goal to obtain knowledge to make himself a god. I know what your thinking, of all the primarchs why Lorgar? Some of you may know but I'll elaborate for all. Before any had the knowledge of what they were dealing with in the warp, Magnus knew. He made a deal to save his sons.He warned Aurelian. He didn't listen. The Emperor censored him. He took it as a slight.His sons became possessed and he saw it as a sign for worship. He willingly gave his sons up for daemonhood. Not because of the Scouring or any deal. He did it for himself.


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Ah, I do love a good discussion! How is chaos not stronger with 9 legions and how many chapters of superhuman warriors? Or primarchs? This certainly didn't weaken them and so would only serve to strengthen them. If only on that front chaos did gain powerful new servants and only because they were created by big E. 

Humanity traveled across the galaxy WITHOUT the astronomican in order to populate the galaxy before the Emperor, his psychich migh is the reason the hive fleets are heading towards terra so it does seem right to blame him. Whos to say that if he hadn't rose another planet, unconstrained by the rules of the adeptus mecahnicus, wouldn't have recovered that secret. Recall that it is only because the Emperor aligned with mars new technology is viewed in as paranoid a light as it is. 

The Eldar care most of all about the preservation of their race, a fractured humanity poses little threat to them and as far as I have read at least a few are willing to negotiate with rational humans. That is a start towards peace at least and as for the tau....well.... How bad, really, can the greater good ideal be for the Imperium? Yes at the moment they only have a small empire but as I am sure you know that is only because the Imperium has pressed hard on their borders on one side and the nids have half eaten the other. Bothe of these events only exist because of the Emperor since he created the space marines and directs the astronomican. 

Where, other than orks, are these races that seek the destruction of humanity? All I have read they kept to themselves really. The Laer didn't send out missionaries or fleets, the denizens of Shrike didn't attempt to conquer the galaxy, the kinebrach kept to themselves and so forth. Humans are the expansionary force, not chaos or aliens. Chaos has always and will always exist and so only rarely, VERY rarely, intervenes in the mortal verse. 

In honesty I like the Emperor, or used to, but his mishandling of almost everything is enough to rank him at least as the being most liable for the state of the galaxy if not the outright villain


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> How is chaos not stronger with 9 legions and how many chapters of superhuman warriors? Or primarchs?


Chaos, the immortal warp energy, did not increase in power as it did not increase the number of people worshiping it (indeed, it went down). It is likely that its servants increased in power (certainly one cannot argue that the Legion and Primarchs are not amongst their most powerful servants) but they have also decreased in number, diversity and influence. Before the Imperial Truth the Chaos Gods were worshiped by billions of cultures on millions of planets and most had no idea the horror they served. Now the followers of Chaos are largely confined to the Eye, bent almost exclusively to the destruction of the Imperium and the Chaos Gods are reviled across the breadth of the Imperium. 



> Humanity traveled across the galaxy WITHOUT the astronomican in order to populate the galaxy before the Emperor,


Indeed, as fragmented travelers and drifting nomads, separated from all their kin. Before the Astronomicion there was no fixed point in the warp, no means of divining position or distance, no way to navigate to a specific destination. There could be no trade, no hope of assistance from afar. Each world lived and died alone, save those few fortunate enough to have other worlds lying along stable warp routes. 



> his psychich migh is the reason the hive fleets are heading towards terra so it does seem right to blame him.


But they aren't. The first fleets to approach did so from far away from Terra (despite recent fleets proving that they can start far closer), fleets do not move with any purpose towards Terra but simply deeper into the galaxy, searching for food, and they can and have been steered to worlds other than Terra with things far less potent than the Astronomicon. I personally find no reason to believe that the Tyranids are drawn to the Astronomicon anymore than other planets, certainly not enough to draw them from another galaxy. Plus, coming from another galaxy would take long enough that they would've left long enough ago that the Astronomicon wouldn't have existed. 



> Whos to say that if he hadn't rose another planet, unconstrained by the rules of the adeptus mecahnicus, wouldn't have recovered that secret.


The Emperor? The being with immense pre-cognitive powers who decided that his intervention, and the plan he set forth, led towards the best possible future for mankind.



> Recall that it is only because the Emperor aligned with mars new technology is viewed in as paranoid a light as it is.


This is incorrect. During the time of the Great Crusade, ie the time the Emperor was active, the Mechanicus made many wondrous leaps in recovering and advancing human technology. It is only in the millions of years since his death that, in an effort to protect their monopoly and thus power, the Mechanicus has sought to limit all advancement. 



> The Eldar care most of all about the preservation of their race, a fractured humanity poses little threat to them and as far as I have read at least a few are willing to negotiate with rational humans.


Why is the fact that the Eldar would prefer a fractured humanity a point in their favour? The Eldar don't care about humans. When their empire was at its peak humanity struggled and bled in its shadows, and they did nothing to stop it. Now that they gasp their dying breaths why should the Imperium help them? The Imperium has shown a willingness to fight alongside the Eldar, and I do not believe that will change (despite the apparent xenophobia of their policies) but there is no real reason to work together any closer, and there are numerous reasons not to.



> How bad, really, can the greater good ideal be for the Imperium?


Bad. The Tau approached the Necrons with the Greater Good at heart, and thousands died for it. They tried again with the Dark Eldar, and more suffered. This galaxy does not forgive, it does not tolerate weakness or hesitation, it is kill or be killed. And the Imperium has shown it's willingness to kill.



> Yes at the moment they only have a small empire but as I am sure you know that is only because the Imperium has pressed hard on their borders on one side and the nids have half eaten the other.


Of course. How is this in anyway a reason to ally with them? As you say, they only exist because we've allowed it. I'm not saying the Imperium needs to exterminate the Tau right away, they're clearly quite low on the threat index (and rightly so) but a powerless enemy is not a powerful friend. 



> Bothe of these events only exist because of the Emperor since he created the space marines and directs the astronomican.


And yet without the Emperor there would be no Imperium. True, the Imperium is in a bad place right now but it has been for some time and shows no signs of going anywhere soon. The Emperor founded this Imperium on blood and sacrifice and through blood and sacrifice it has endured and will continue to endure. Without the Emperor, without the Marines he created or the governments he installed the Imperium would not exist, humanity would not have an empire, we would be scattered, lost and dying (if not already dead). 



> Where, other than orks, are these races that seek the destruction of humanity?


Gone mostly. The Great Crusade was highly effective in that regard, so you can thank the Emperor for that.



> Humans are the expansionary force, not chaos or aliens.


1) The Great Crusade was primarily a liberation and re-unification of already human settled worlds, not really an expansion. 
2) The Tau are definitely an expansionary force. Third Sphere I believe they call it.
3) So? I'm not denying that humanity is actively seeking out and destroying aliens, nor am I trying to say they can claim a moral high ground. I'm saying there is no moral high ground, so the Emperor didn't bother with any. He had seen humanities policies of trust and co-operation backfire spectacularly so he decided that, this time around, there would be no trust or co-operation. In a kill or be killed world, I say its better to kill first. 



> In honesty I like the Emperor, or used to, but his mishandling of almost everything is enough to rank him at least as the being most liable for the state of the galaxy if not the outright villain


Well that's odd, I actually rather dislike the Emperor (there's a reason I play Night Lords) and definitely blame him for most of the state of the Imperium (baring everything xenos). I dislike him, however, not because he's evil (I don't think he is, nor even misguided) but because he's arrogant, a hypocrite and a liar. However these traits, even when combined with his appetite for destruction and seeming indifference to human suffering, do not make for a villain (at least in this case) but rather a flawed and ultimately doomed tragic hero. A man so blinded by the rightness of his cause he failed to grasp that others might not see it, or might disagree regardless. In many stories such a man might be a villain, someone for the righteous and just hero to prove wrong but 40k is not that kind of story. Yes, the Emperor failed but if failure is all it takes to be a villain, than there are very, very few heroes out there.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

SonofMalice said:


> Not to pick at straws but how do we know any of that? Chaos didn't seem to be as directly involved with humanity and corrupting it since they were content to let humans to develop to their full potential and fuel the gods power. This is backed up by the fact that while warlocks are seen fighting against the emperor on terra during the unification wars they are by no means well spread and most worlds seem to be relatively free of corruption.
> 
> The reason I, and perhaps others, choose the Emperor is that he was the one that chose to kick the hornet's nest. Had he not things might have gone better or maybe worst. Regardless of possibility his actions gave chaos its strongest servants and also created a stalemate that caused a long war that only served to increase chaos' (and the Emperor's possibly) power for ten thousand years of warfare. He created the Primarchs of whom half have turned traitor, he created the astartes legions of whom half turned traitor with their primarchs, and he directs the astronomican that is drawing the tyranids into conflict with humanity. For that matter his xenophobic philosophy has led the Imperium into open war with eldar and tau alike, both of whom could bolster the Imperium.
> 
> ...


But I said in my original post, that the fact half of them turned traitor was immaterial, the only thing that mattered was the web way, with its destruction at the unwitting hands of magnus it made the Horus heresy pale in comparison, he almost destroyed terra, shackled the emperor to his throne, and made the imperium what it is today.

Also when humanity fell apart for the first time it did so because of chaos, just not directly by them, the iron men humanity created were perverted by chaos and they had massive civil wars, entire world and colonies were under the sway of chaos fuelled psykers, earth itself was full of them the emperor killed them and brought the rest to his heel.

After mankinds first fall many, planets were under the total sway of chaos, humans being used like cattle, for instance Mortarions homeworld barbarous under the influence of nurgle, used humans as test subjects for a variety of different poisons, or that planet the lion went to, where the populace sacrificed 100s of millions to fuel a demon.

After the first fall the galaxy was segmented into thousands of different sectors thanks to warp storms, no travel or communication was possible, then demons possessed one by one, any psyker they could get their hands on, with no help most of those that were under the sway of said psykers, their souls were offered up to the gods, killed for the pleasure of krone, subjected to tortures for slaanesh etc....

And then we get the xenos, for instance in the novella wolves at the door, the planet had every 7 years for as long as they could remember been terrorised by the dark Elgar, every 7 they pillage and kidnap vast swathes of the populace. Basically he never kicked the hornets nest, it was always shit, he just tried his best to fix it, and did so better than anyone else could have.

MEQ I feel has sufficiently delved into your other points


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> But I said in my original post, that the fact half of them turned traitor was immaterial, the only thing that mattered was the web way, with its destruction at the unwitting hands of magnus it made the Horus heresy pale in comparison, he almost destroyed terra, shackled the emperor to his throne, and made the imperium what it is today.
> 
> Also when humanity fell apart for the first time it did so because of chaos, just not directly by them, the iron men humanity created were perverted by chaos and they had massive civil wars, entire world and colonies were under the sway of chaos fuelled psykers, earth itself was full of them the emperor killed them and brought the rest to his heel.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, it is just my opinion of course.  It just seemed to me that for all the good that the Emperor might have tried to do his end results were almost uniformly worse. The chaos touched people of other worlds didn't all have a hellish existence, look at cadia or the world that john grammaticus was on. Someone said it in another thread, and I think it holds some weight, that a religion that is driven underground of necessity becomes harsher and more fanatical and the Emperor can be squarely blamed for his prohibitions and lack of explanation. Indeed his secrecy is the worst thing for the human race since magnus didn't know about the webway project as a result. 

@ MEQ
Good points all, and well said. I was pretty sure that humanity had an actual united empire at some point before the Imperium due to the creation of the men of Iron and such like. such an empire would have had to had some form of FTL travel that was at least as effective as warp travel (this is simply the logic of the cosmos here, if they didn't have it such an empire wouldn't have been possible). Someone should clairify this as I am away from my books but I was pretty sure this was the case.

When I said chaos grew stronger stronger I meant in a more physical sense. The addition of 9 legions and primarchs was a great boost to the physical forces of chaos since daemons have but a limited amount of time they can spend in realspace. That was more my argument, that these powerful warriors going over to chaos gave the gods a much stronger ability to enforce their will in the galaxy. Should have been clearer, my bad.

Not all new technology really, STCs were recovered if I am not mistaken. I concede that point at least but I take it further, that by not abolishing the adeptus and their superstitions he paved the way for the decline of technology after his enthronement.

The eldar do care about humanity, otherwise they wouldn't bother fighting them. A marines lands on a maiden world and all the webway breaks loose on them. For that matter an Inquisitor entered the Black Library at their invitation, other humans have as you said fought beside them, and they are viewed as potentially the source of the next Slaanesh. If the eldar didn't care why appear to Fulgrim? Why join the cabal and recruit John Grmmaticus?

Am I wrong in remembering that the reason the hive fleets were heading towards terra was because the light of the Astronomican was drawing them? If I am apologies, that was what I remember being the case.

As to other races, I just ask the question, are they all so detrimental to the Imperium that coexistence with them wasn't even considered? Surely, out of billions of life forms a few would have proved staunch allies.

With respect to the tau, their technology and rapid advancement to it combined with the diplomatic acumen the water cult brings to the table would prove a great asset to them Imperium if they were willing to consider it. The Greater good could work within the Imperium is my thought, what greater good is there than the Emperor's will? That is a little out there though. 

In the interests of clarity him being the greatest villain to me is also partially why I like him at all. If all his intentions were noble and all his secrecy purely a miscalculation then I think he looks like an idiot. However, if he's the villain and is trying to become another god of chaos, one with the power to take on the big four, and he used humanity for ten thousand years to do it then all his actions make a lot more sense to me and his occasional lapses and mistakes, not to mention random acts of mercy (horus) and arbitrary judgement (council of nikea). 
Just my way of looking at it. Whatever gets you through the day you know. :biggrin:

As to the more traditional baddies my list would go something like....THIS.
1. Asdrubal Vect, he's got to be the most incredible dark elf ever to have not only survived this long but to have taken control of virtually his entire race. To quote a movie "He could win a war if he went to war"

2. Fabius Bile, with all the work he has done on recreating the primarchs he is possibly the only being in existence who, with the gift of the chaos gods, could even attempt to recreate them. His body count is staggering and worse it is subtle half the time and manifests years down the line.

3. The entire Ecclisiarchy and the ordo hereticus right along with a dolp of the adeptus mechanicus to complement the latent insanity of the other orders. IF anyone has hobbled the Imperium its these guys and they do it almost totally to be obstinate. I have never read about anyone from these orders that I liked barring two characters from Mechanicus. 

4. Alpha Legion. For every head cut off, two shall grow. I am more scarred of these guys than anything else on the list since and alpha legion operative could be anyone, even your closest friend. With their infiltration of hundreds of systems and perhaps even into the Inquisition itself they could turn the tide against the Imperium (and I am sure have) in so many different ways.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

The native Cadians were cannibals and they would have been far more warped were it not for the pylons situated on their planet.
Heresy starts off small, the don't worship khrone straight a way, first they worship a red god that needs a sacrifice once in a while, then the god wants more sacrifices, then he wants war once in a while, then all the fucking time.

And that world grammaticus was on, I assume you mean the one in the first half of the novel legion, well if you don't remember they had a little black box that they used to sacrifice themselves and thereby destroy the planet

Again it was always shit, he just tried to make it less shit, he failed his objective by a long shot, but humanity still is better off now than without him(I described how it was without him in my previous post).
I'll add some more onto that list too caliban, it's population under the mercy of warped beasts, planets of other novels whose names now escape me, full of roving denizens of the warp, lakes of blood, haunted by demons, plagues, and cults of pleasure and torture dedicated to slaanesh.

Yes, a religion underground becomes more fanatical, but it would have become more fanatical anyway, the entire reason the religion was set up is to become fanatical.

The whole John grammaticus thing could have just been another way for chaos to ensnare another primarch , i mean it sure looks like it was.

Magnus did know about the web way and if he just listened to the emperor and stopped being a stuck up prick it wouldn't have happened ( his adopted father warned him, his brothers warned him, he knew of the arp, the emperor warned him, hell they had a massive trial in nikea to warn and forbid him), most of the problems of the primarchs stems from when they were stolen from the emperor and cast into the warp, they were mutated along with their sons and predisposed to betrayal, they are in essence damaged goods, but the emperor again weighing up the options decided he didn't have much choice in the ,after and would still have to use them. The emperor tried everything he could to ensure their safety and that nothing like what happened could happen but it happened.

He's not an idiot, he tried his best and did better than any other being, to be fair he is fighting against elemental forces, old as time and like I said he almost won.

The Eldar don't care about humanity, they state several times that they should have killed humanity off while we were still cavemen, the guy that went to the black library was going to be killed in case you didn't remember, by the leader of the Eldar If I may add, the first war of armageddon or second....actaually I'm not sure but one those was started to save 10 thousand Eldar lives, a few billion human for 10k Eldar.

The tau, well the Ethereals are an unknown force, we don't know what Ethel really want, or what they really know, I wouldn't make a deal with someone I didn't know.

The tau aren't the only ones with an industrious civilisation with good tech, the imperium particularly the parts held by guilliman can also boast strong industry and a healthy workforce.
But the Tau like the imperium once faced with a massive threat such as the tyranids or chaos will learn that everything has a price and that relatively civilian lives are cheap and easy to come by, a price to be paid to avert total destruction, they will seems nice now that they know they are small ( they can't take what they want by force yet) and have never faced a truly powerful merciless enemy, but once they do they will be an imperium 2.0

Meq wil probably answer the parts pertaining to his own part of the discussion


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

...he is the carrion lord, a god of death for whom flesh is eaten and blood is drunk. Human flesh and human blood. The stuff of the Imperium. They make dead babies into cherubs. The Imperium's zealots throw themselves into death with all the fanatical devotion that Khorne's followers do. They embrace virtual sadomasochism and trials to the death just for those who want to become an astartes. And warp help you if you are a psyker. All these things are in 30k, before he ascended. Humanity is "better" only because of the countless billions who toil and die knowing neither freedom nor any real enjoyment. And all because of the will off one man. If one were to ascribe these actions to any other person it would paint them as the worst sort of dictator and isn't that indictment enough of how he runs his Imperium? I always held 40k to be black and grey morality, no one is truly good. The Emperor by his actions has caused countless billions of deaths and due to his random act of mercy he not only almost lost it all but doomed the Imperium to slow decline. He is inconsistent and, as MEQ said, hypocritical and it is his half measures that created problems and then kept them from being solved. 

In Legion they did indeed blow up a world by killing their whole race, the Imperium virus bombs and exterminatus' worlds filled with loyal civilians if they feel they can't contain the threat. No rescue, just death. 

The cabal thing doesn't seem like chaos to me, more like the reverse.

Ok, hands up, you got me dead to rights on Magnus but if curiosity is a sin (and I seem to recall that it is in this verse) then magnus and lorgar were doomed from the start. As other threads have discussed telling either of them the full extent of the situation might (or might not, admittedly) helped. I hate secrets, if I found out that big of one I would pull a lorgar too. If he can't trust his sons in some things then he makes it a certainty that one of them will find something they shouldn't and end up going rogue.

As to the Eldar, I think you are right about the race but not about important individuals within it. They are hostile usually but my thought is more that if the Emperor, the most powerful agent of order, had made overtures to them then perhaps some would have joined him. Granted I don't think it is hugely likely but his whole "Humanity cannot be contaminated by the xenos" thing just seems.... ignorant of him given the great possibility for leaps in technology and also peaceful assimilation of worlds that otherwise had to be conquered. 

Tau are tricky it is true, but from what I have read of those human world under them who peacefully integrate it doesn't seem so bad.

Tyranids and necrons don't count as powerful and mercilessness? Or Dark Eldar? Or an entire crusade of angry space marines? Maybe you are right and they will turn all imperium in time but it is not this day! A day of of cyberwolves and shattered shields when the empire of tau comes crashing down., but it is not this day! For the Greater Good!


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

That's exactly it the decline, the bloody decline, he got it up in the first place, during the 200 years of the great crusade, mankind was really growing, things were looking really good, enlightenment and growth and prosperity were but a handful of years away, sure he causes countless billion s to die but if it wasn't for him they wouldn't have been born in the first place, he asks for their bodies, but protects their souls, and it's not like he expected or wanted to be thrown into the golden throne, in case you haven't realised he suffers for ten thousand years and counting his soul halfway between dead and alive.

If he won, hell if Magnus wasn't such a douche, the emperor would have successfully weened mankind off the warp, thereby ensuring that psykers were no longer treated the way they are, but instead taught how to control themselves.

The astartes point is the stupidest point you made, the astartes have to be the cream of the crop, the killer elite, they have to prove themselves, if they fail, humanity falls.

The second stupidest is "they bomb the shit out of the planet if they can't contain it" well duh, for instance if nurgles plague jumped from one planet to another, theoretically the entire subsector would be in danger and not just one but two then ten planets are desolated by nurgles plague.

He entrusts his sons with taking over the galaxy, the bastard lorgar can't even do that right, truth be told he should have been killed immediately, out of all of them he is. Failure when he was loyal to the emperor and a failure when he betrayed him.
The emperor gives Magnus power and knowledge, he gives him wisdom and teaches him as best he can, everyone tells Magnus to stay put, not to pis about with the warp, and what does he do? He does the only thing he is forbidden to do, pisses about with it.

The Eldar don't care about humanity, they are still dreaming of the bygone days when they ruled, they are stuck in the past, and ironically though they can see the future they don't heed it, instead have there heads stuck up their ass

They haven't been attacked, from every side for years on end, the imperium never got stuck in all the way, they pulled out (inb4 innuendos)
Give me 5 mins so I can edit everything before replying btw the cheerub thing is just to give it a gothicy feeling to it.

sorry if i seem a little aggressive my keyboard is pissing me off :/


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

No need to get irate.

My points that you consider stupid are based on the premise that whether tested to be the greatest killers in the galaxy (sphess mahrines) or in tribal culture on a death world their is little difference between that and the cadian world. That's just my opinion. I feel that cannibalism (blood angels anyone?) is not the strongest point to argue since as mentioned life is quite cheap and no matter what happens you won't be missed. I just make the point you can't point to death rites and such on one side and ignore it on the other. 

As to the fist stupid point I raise that to show that they are putting children and teenagers through this, most of whom tend to die, just to turn them into engines of biological destruction. It's a little harsh. Just doesn't seem fair to not point out that the Imperium is and always was based on brutality and the deaths of countless millions all to follow ONE man's vision. 

The second stupid point was that if you blow up a planet because you can't hold it and in doing so sacrifice the entire population what, other then who is doing it, is the difference between blowing up a chaos infested world that can't be contained and blowing up a world invaded by the Imperium when your forces have no chance of victory? They seem pretty similar to me. And if that trick had worked totally it would have indeed been like curbing nurgles plague since the fleet would have been unable to conquer any more worlds

I sense a touch of hostility in your words about magnus and lorgar, truth told the are my favorites among the primarchs because of their curiosity. Magnus did not intentionally destroy the webway. Why do I say that? Because he never knew about what the Emperor was doing. Had he known he wouldn't have broken it. Indeed the second he gets through and sees his father and understands he is crushed. All that knowledge only made it harder for him to obey without the emperor explaining his plans. He had no way of knowing what he was doing would only end badly warnings or not and considering the information that he was trying to get to the Emperor it was a risk worth taking. If he had made it without destroying the webway and had been believed horus' insurrection would have been easily crushed. 

They may not have faced 10,000 of constant war but what does that prove? That 10,000 years from now they will be ruthless? Maybe but right NOW they aren't as and the potential for a dual kingdom is there. 

More to the point though I think perhaps you give Big E too much leniency and too little credence to the possibility that he is not a nice guy. Grammaticus looking into his soul was chilling, the last church too, he simply is a massively powerful being and forces his will on every human. He is a warmonger, a xenophobe (love that word), and absolutely cold blooded. He might have good traits but these only serve to trip him up at the last moment usually. He is powerful and wise but that doesn't give him any more right to reshape humanity than it does the chaos gods. I like him as a villain for the reasons before but as a villain protagonist. He's the focal point of the setting and without him the setting wouldn't be possible. Agreed that he has done great things but isn't it more fun to consider that he intended everything to go the way that it did? That him gaining the worship of humanity and thus being able to fight on the chaos gods level was always the goal? It makes him look craftier than Tzeentch.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Oh yes, lets all call the xenos/chaos the villains. Because the imperium so good and noble.

I agree with the last several posts.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Pardon me for being irate, you are right, my keyboard is seriously annoying me, sorry for calling your points stupid, my points won't be in the same order as your so bear with me.

Firstly, I really hate lorgar, but going back to Magnus, he knew alllllll about the web way, in the book prospero burns, the first part with the giant perfectly symmetrical mountain that nullified the warp, that was the part where he learns about the web way and then later just after the Ullanor crusade the emperor tells him he is building a web way, and as I said before his mentors the emperor, Ahriman, his brothers all tell him not to meddle with the warp, it isn't curiosity that drives solely drives him but fierce pride and unshakeable arrogance, I hate him too because he didn't have the decency to just die, but instead live a wretched existence.furthermore, like I said, Horus is immaterial, inconsequential, compared to his betrayal, horuses wrongs could be made right, but Magnus screwed it all and more up.

The blood angels are cannibals due to chaos not the emperor, that brings me to my second point, the astartes as I said before have to be the killer elite, mankind sacrifices, the emperor sacrifices, remember, he sacrificed a lot for them, them fighting and dying for the chance at glory, to prove themselves, to walk amongst gods, to attain levels of physical and mental performance unknown to mortals and to live a long worthwhile life.

My comment on the tau is this, they are naive, you are naive to think that once they face a true foe and are pushed to their limits, that their moral values won't be cast aside, the are inhuman, they serve their own needs first everyone else's second, it's foolish to think otherwise.

Grammaticus...look inside HIS soul bs, he looked and saw staggering power and it scared him, the sheer size of the emperors ambition, scared him, the emperors sheer unyielding will scared him.

The emperor saw a chance, a chance to make mankind the masters of their destiny, to forge an interstellar empire, a chance for them to be free of the predations of the warp, he did whatever he could, remember he fought he almost died and gave everything he had to ensure that chaos could be subdued and that humanites future could be secured.

You say that they do this all to follow one mans will, if not his then who else? He alone has the power and foresight, no other man can claim to have seen what he has, or do what he has.
If his gamble had paid off, a new united humanity would emerge, psyches no longer needed to be ruthlessly harassed to traverse the warp, instead they are free to learn to grow, to evolve.
Mankind could grow into a prosperous, technologically advanced empire, to rival that of the Eldar, and with the emperors guiding hand ensuring they never fell from grace and the restless astartes guardians ensuring their safety against the other races.
With their new found power would come the appreciation of life in all it's form, not just humans, with their knowledge would come the need to embrace new cultures and races.

He bet everything on this future, if he didn't well there would be no humanity only random clusters enslaved to various xenon races and if they were really unlucky a possessed psyker.

The difference between a chaos infested world and a world overrun with imperial troops is quite simple, one will devour your soul mind and body, the other one just your body

Oh and I definitely agree I hope the heresy was all planned for by the emperor, though I do hope he didn't look forward to it and did really want a utopia.
Interestingly in the book deliverance lost there is a poem the emperor inscribed for himself, the gist of it was that he didn't really expect his empire to last any longer than the countless ones before it


B


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> It just seemed to me that for all the good that the Emperor might have tried to do his end results were almost uniformly worse.


1) I don't agree they were necessarily worse.
2) How does that make the Emperor a villain? How does failing make you a bad person? He fucked up sure, but at least he tried and for a while there he had things going pretty well.



> @ MEQ
> Good points all, and well said. I was pretty sure that humanity had an actual united empire at some point before the Imperium due to the creation of the men of Iron and such like. such an empire would have had to had some form of FTL travel that was at least as effective as warp travel (this is simply the logic of the cosmos here, if they didn't have it such an empire wouldn't have been possible).


They had an empire, the unity of which I believe was somewhat questionable (which was my point). Further, humanity has never had any form of FTL beyond the warp as, until the recent bizarre change to the Tyranids, no forms of FTL existed in 40k beyond the warp (and whatever the Necrons used to use).



> Should have been clearer, my bad.


Yeah, neither of us was very clear, but that's cleared up so we can move on.



> that by not abolishing the adeptus and their superstitions he paved the way for the decline of technology after his enthronement.


Again, I don't think it's fair to blame the Emperor for this. It seems clear to me that he did not intend to be murdered and thus did not really have a plan for what would happen if he was. While he was in control of the Ad Mech, they worked and advanced. Can he be held responsible for what other did when they took over (which I think was largely a response to the Dark Mechanicus, but that's off-topic).



> The eldar do care about humanity, otherwise they wouldn't bother fighting them. A marines lands on a maiden world and all the webway breaks loose on them. For that matter an Inquisitor entered the Black Library at their invitation, other humans have as you said fought beside them, and they are viewed as potentially the source of the next Slaanesh. If the eldar didn't care why appear to Fulgrim? Why join the cabal and recruit John Grmmaticus?


I was referring to the Eldar Empire, the empire that ruled during humanities first faltering steps into the cosmos. The Empire that didn't give two shits about humanities pain and struggle. What the Eldar (and only some of them) have chosen to do since their Fall is irrelevant to the point. The Eldar now are dying, some of them have recognized that humanity is the future and are acting accordingly. Some of them still cling to false hope and faded glory and fight humanity at every turn. Almost all of them would rather hundreds of humans died than one Eldar, most still view themselves as superior. They are not to be trusted and they have little to offer the Imperium.



> Am I wrong in remembering that the reason the hive fleets were heading towards terra was because the light of the Astronomican was drawing them?


I believe that was the speculation of an Inquisitor, in game. I certainly disagree, and have provided my reasoning why.



> As to other races, I just ask the question, are they all so detrimental to the Imperium that coexistence with them wasn't even considered? Surely, out of billions of life forms a few would have proved staunch allies.


Sure, but the Imperium played the odds. For every potential staunch ally there were dozens of false friends and hundreds of open enemies. When humanity first stepped into the stars, we searched for these allies and trusted those false friends. All betrayed us in time. When the Emperor tried again he did not make the mistakes of the past. The Imperium didn't and doesn't need the help of xenos. 



> With respect to the tau, their technology and rapid advancement to it combined with the diplomatic acumen the water cult brings to the table would prove a great asset to them Imperium if they were willing to consider it.


Tau technology is noticeably better in some areas and understandably outdated in others. I agree that a more progressive attitude towards technology would benefit the Imperium but I disagree that the Tau are needed to provide it. The Tau Empire is a society at its peak, the Imperium hit its peak 10,000 years ago under the guidance of the Emperor.



SonofMalice said:


> If one were to ascribe these actions to any other person it would paint them as the worst sort of dictator and isn't that indictment enough of how he runs his Imperium? I always held 40k to be black and grey morality, no one is truly good.


One should never judge a character by the morality of another story (or reality as the case may be) but rather by the morality of his own story. 40k, as you say, has a black and grey morality and in it the Emperor is definitely grey but he is certainly not black. The Emperor has done some truly horrific things but he has also done some truly great things and he did them both for the same purpose, a purpose that I believe was noble (if flawed).



> The cabal thing doesn't seem like chaos to me, more like the reverse.


Completely off-topic I know but this is kind of a pet-peeve of mine. How is using visions of possible futures to manipulate individuals to uncertain goals the reverse of Chaos? How is it not *completely* Tzeentch's MO. Note also that the Primordial Annihilator is described as a sort of Khorne-Nurgle combo, no mention is made of the trickery of Tzeentch or the excess of Slaanesh, and who opposes Khorne and Nurgle? 



SonofMalice said:


> As to the fist stupid point I raise that to show that they are putting children and teenagers through this, most of whom tend to die, just to turn them into engines of biological destruction. It's a little harsh.


It is most certainly harsh. But it is also completely necessary. Without the Legions Astartes their would be no Imperium, without the Space Marines their would be no humanity. Without the brutality that they endure, without the deaths at trial and the sheer horror they are put through the Marines would not be what they are. They would not be enough. Brutality breeds brutality and if there is one thing a Marine needs more than any other it is brutality. It speaks to the sheer darkness of the 40k setting that the angelic saviours of humanity are not even human, but pushed so far beyond it that death, destruction and pain are all they know. That the God-King, the messiah come again, is a Corpse God whose plans came to naught and in whose name are countless acts of violence and barbarism carried out. But it does not speak to the villainy of those involved. Such is the darkness of 40k that an emotionless child-soldier-turned-killing-machine can be an Angel, that a man who murdered billions can be worshiped as a God and most of all that the people who believe these things are not wrong. Space Marines really are humanities saviors, the Emperor really was a hero. 



> More to the point though I think perhaps you give Big E too much leniency and too little credence to the possibility that he is not a nice guy.


I don't think anyone is claiming the Emperor is a nice guy, you'd have to be stupid to think that. There is a difference between being a bastard and being a villain though, and where that line is is the nature of this debate. The Emperor is a bad man, and I don't like him, but he is the best the Imperium has to offer.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> But they aren't. The first fleets to approach did so from far away from Terra (despite recent fleets proving that they can start far closer), fleets do not move with any purpose towards Terra but simply deeper into the galaxy, searching for food, and they can and have been steered to worlds other than Terra with things far less potent than the Astronomicon. I personally find no reason to believe that the Tyranids are drawn to the Astronomicon anymore than other planets, certainly not enough to draw them from another galaxy. Plus, coming from another galaxy would take long enough that they would've left long enough ago that the Astronomicon wouldn't have existed.


This quote from _Codex: Tyranids_ - _"...Little do the High Lords know that it is the Astronomican itself that lures the Tyranids towards Terra..."_ - would suggest otherwise.

The Astronomican may not have been the reason for why the Tyranids initially arrived in our galaxy, but it seems to be drawing them towards Terra.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Well, in regards to the conversation even if the astronomican attracts the tyranids, the imperium and thus humanity would completely fall apart without it anyway, so it can't be used to say the emperor is a villain and never mind the fact the emperor didn't exactly expect them to come anyway, so he can't really be blamed.


----------



## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm pretty surprised at the "Emperor is a villain" mindset. To be sure, we are conditioned in this day and age to think that any leader or politician who resorts to anything less than completely civilized discourse is some sort of cro-magnon throwback. We are taught to believe that any sort of the-ends-justify-the-means mindset is inherently bad. And truth be told, history kind of lends credence to this.

But let's think about this critically for a minute. Suppose, for example, the Biblical hell was a real thing. Like really real. And if you screw up in certain ways, you go there and are exposed to excruciating torture for all eternity. Try turning on your stovetop to high. Wait 20 seconds. Place the palm of your hand on the red hot burner super briefly. Feel the pain. Now imagine that insane pain and far worse - forever. To add some enrichment on what eternity implies, contemplate *Graham's Number* a bit.

Ok, now imagine that for whatever reason, this hell could occasionally spill out into the normal world. Like, sometimes if you're not careful it could take over an entire planet, dooming billions to perpetual torture. If things go _really_ bad, the entire galaxy and possibly even all existence could fall victim to this sort of thing.

Under these circumstances, isn't it _*entirely reasonable*_ for the Emperor to take an absolutely no-holds-barred approach? Isn't it worth almost any sacrifice to prevent a sizeable percentage humanity from being _*eternally tortured*_? In sci-fi terms, this is an *Outside Context Problem*. It's so extreme and so unfamiliar to our every day experience, we have no moral or philosophical basis on how to deal with it. Isn't it totally acceptable to take a wholesale scorched earth approach to making sure this doesn't happen? 

The Emperor isn't a villain for precisely this reason. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for being incredibly incompetent. But that's another thread.:biggrin:


----------



## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

thread is 5 pages long and noone has yet mentioned the Nightbriger? 
color me surprised, you cant get more evil than that


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sangriento said:


> thread is 5 pages long and noone has yet mentioned the Nightbriger?
> color me surprised, you cant get more evil than that


Once upon a time... 






































I would have.


----------

