# Deff Rolla Panic



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Hi guys. There's a lot of panic going on over the new Ork FAQ that allows Deff Rollas to effect vehicles, so I'm going to see if I can't help ease people's fears a bit.

Firstly, remember that Deff Rollas can only be mounted on Battlewagons. Battlewagons are not Fast vehicles, so they can only reach you from a maximum of 13" away (if the Ork player buys the 'wagon red paint). This means that you'll have at least one turn to stop the wagon if the Orks go first.

Battlewagons only have a high AV on the front. Looking at the GW model, it's obvious that the model's side armor arc is gigantic so it'll be really easy to get side armor shots. The Battlewagon is also open-topped, so any rolls on the damage table will be even more effective than normal. Pair this with using an AP1 weapon and the 'wagon won't last long.

Let's imagine that a Battlewagon is making a beeline for your expensive Leman Russ, Predator, Land Raider or whatever. You're aware of what the Ork player is doing, so right away you can take evasive action and move the threatened vehicle out of the way. Then you can swoop in with something like a Land Speeder or similar, get in the wagon's side arc and blow the living crap out of it well before the giant tank gets close. If that's not possible, target it with your lascannons or equivalents. Trust me guys, it's really not _that_ hard, even with multiple Battlewagons.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Like I said, just shoot it, not sure what the fuss is about.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Most of the time those vehicles are in more danger from the cargo of the battlewagon anyway.

However, multiple battlewagons covered by a kustom force field to get a 4+ cover save are going to be pretty hard to take down, especially since the ones on the sides can be angled to present less of their front armor and protect the side armor of the one in the middle.

Personally, my concern is that the one army that I had trouble with last year at 'ard boyz was a battlewagon army. I had planned to counter it with a kan wall to stop them from breaking up my assault screen with tank shocks but now that deffrollas work on vehicles the aforementioned kans won't really survive taking 3d6 strength 10 hits from battlewagons. Pretty much the only way that I can run Orks effectively at 'ard boyz this year is as a battlewagon army and I just don't have the models (battlewagons and meganobz.)


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

It changes target priority and certain tactics. It's not the end of the world. Granted, it gives the Ork a devastating AT weapon. Kinda like a STR: 10 Lance. Or a tank that fires a melta burst shell. Or or or.... 

Just adjust tactics to understand that Orks ramming is DAAAANGEROUS!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Culler said:


> I had planned to counter it with a kan wall to stop them from breaking up my assault screen with tank shocks but now that deffrollas work on vehicles the aforementioned kans won't really survive taking 3d6 strength 10 hits from battlewagons.


Not to mention each deffrolla might be able to take out 2 kans at a time if you aren't careful, AND they keep going, destroying anything behind them aswell. :shok:

I think I would DoG just to try and stop the damned thing.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

1d6 STR 10, if they don't blow up, the charge is stopped. 3 of them likely would stop it. Remember, these aren't shooting attacks, they dont' spread through the squadron.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I think the fuss comes from something at one point couldn't do anything now can be quite devastating. It's the same as with a new codex at first everyone is mad as hell at the new rules and stats and after a few months people settle into the army just being well another army


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

I personally believe that the main beef here is that Orks get a dirt cheap way of countering things (High AV Vehicles) they are ment to have a problem with. Normally you get penalized with premium point costs for ways of countering army-designed difficulties. This is definitely not the case here:no:

It makes them even more "point and rush in the enemies general direction" and certainly favours the already very effective Battlewagon rush swarm.


BOLS has had a battle report test run with this a while ago, have a look at it if you like. Im personally siding with the "Deff Rollas should not affect Vehicles conclusion" they reached and hope that this goes the same way as the "Counterattack & Furious Charge" combo.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

There is a lot not to like. First off almost everyones heard of the Land Raider wagons that have smaller sides. Against the spirit of the game.. yes, but competitive players can be competitive... to the extreme in some cases, so there goes that "easy to hit side armor".

At least one round to take it out...ONE ROUND?! Obviously your not familiar with the amount of shots Heavy Destroyers seem to miss. One turn live or die is not a good thing.

Avoid it... As a Necron player my Monolith can slug away a mighty 6inchs a turn. And living metal will offer no defence against the Battlewagon. Its kinda ironic that the Orcs appear to have the best Mono killer (argueable with railguns) and its cheap.

Oh and if your land speeder with multi melta goes in for the kill... well its ganna need to get within 12 inchs. If it hits.. Str 8+2d6 pen with AP 1 should rip an Open Top apart. But if it misses, or fails to pen, Its an easy Deffrolla lunch.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

JackalMJ said:


> Oh and if your land speeder with multi melta goes in for the kill... well its ganna need to get within 12 inchs. If it hits.. Str 8+2d6 pen with AP 1 should rip an Open Top apart. But if it misses, or fails to pen, Its an easy Deffrolla lunch.


I would argue that the putting a MM speeder in the side arc is a good tactic weather you destroy it or not. If the Ork player goes for the LS then he will leave his side exposed to the rest of your army, if he tries to ignore the LS he might get himself caught in the saide or even rear arc. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't and thats going to mess his day up.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

JackalMJ said:


> There is a lot not to like. First off almost everyones heard of the Land Raider wagons that have smaller sides. Against the spirit of the game.. yes, but competitive players can be competitive... to the extreme in some cases, so there goes that "easy to hit side armor".
> 
> At least one round to take it out...ONE ROUND?! Obviously your not familiar with the amount of shots Heavy Destroyers seem to miss. One turn live or die is not a good thing.
> 
> ...


Remember the monolith is a skimmer and the deffaroller is still a ram attack. Thus on a 3+ you avoid it.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Interesting... is that +3 to avoid altogether or +3 per auto hit?

As for the Land Speeder, you have a point. Mathshammer indicits the Speeders got a pretty good chance in killing the Wagon, and even ifi t doesnt it is a fairly expendable unit, unlike a land raider. Lets be honest, whether or not it kills the wagon, some orks likely to kill the speeder in the following turn.

Thats neither here nor there tho.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

3+ to avoid the Ram. If you avoid the Ram, then they can't deal the Deathrolla hits.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

I crunched some numbers today and found out that you can fit 8 Battlewagons with Deffrollas in to a 1500pt list. I will say that other then the fact that it had 8 Deffrollas the list completely sucked.


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## Old Rednek (Mar 18, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Hi guys. There's a lot of panic going on over the new Ork FAQ that allows Deff Rollas to effect vehicles, so I'm going to see if I can't help ease people's fears a bit.
> 
> Firstly, remember that Deff Rollas can only be mounted on Battlewagons. Battlewagons are not Fast vehicles, so they can only reach you from a maximum of 13" away (if the Ork player buys the 'wagon red paint). This means that you'll have at least one turn to stop the wagon if the Orks go first.
> 
> ...


This is all well and good. But I run my deff rollas in a herd with a Mek with a KFF. I works wonderfully on vehicles. Running as a herd with cover saves allows me to get Multiple hits on a vehicle. I defently love to see an army taking expensive plasma tanks. I have not done this yet but you can ram a skimmer. the skimmer player has to roll a 1 or a 2. with three attacking it I should get one half the time. I dont fear Valk any more.... 

Old Rednek


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im not concerned. As a Chaos Player the Only Mech I have is Rhinos and the occasionel pair of Vindis. My DP, GD, Oblits, and Melta tossing PMs are unafected by this Deff Rolla. Hahahahahahaha..... oh and those DAMN Nids Players are also laughing at this outrage cry.

All in all I think Orcs desperatly needed this. They have no Mech combating tatics whatsoever in a Mech dominated 5th edition. Its not terribly unfair but in this Game Breaking trend of 5th ed Codexes, why not?


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Now that I think about it, it makes me kinda happy to see Mech getting taken down a notch.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> BOLS has had a battle report test run with this a while ago, have a look at it if you like.


can you link?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

MyI)arkness said:


> can you link?


Wasnt very hard to find, but sure here is a linky:wink:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-battle-report-orks-vs-space-goats.html


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I really can't help but laugh at that video. "Hmm, let's see what happens when the Marine player is stupid enough to drive both of his Land Raiders straight at the Battlewagons with deff rollas!"

:no:

This doesn't prove anything. The entire "experiment" (if you can even call it that) is retarded.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

While I do agree with you Katie on the fact that the SW plays retardedly I still think that something that "fixes" an army weakness (crappy high AV sollutions) should be expensive and tough to fiddle in. This is everything but that


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## Old Rednek (Mar 18, 2009)

katie Drake.... applause you got it in one. your a good gal for a non ork player. Sure your not an ork player? There alot more fun and random than othere armies. There the true heros of the 40k universe.


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## Old Rednek (Mar 18, 2009)

Madein Manaic please... its not that horrible solution... you just got to pop something with a 12 AV on the side 10 on the back. If they wanted to fix it they would do the vehicles like the Deff Skullz codex out of the Waaaagh. A battle wagon is not that hard to make go boom. its not like we can hit the broad side of a barn. Heck we dont even have auto hitting zzap gunz any more. And you will have most of the time 2 whole turns to shoot at us. if you cant hit the wagon and do something to it buy new dice.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Old Rednek said:


> Madein Manaic please... its not that horrible solution... you just got to pop something with a 12 AV on the side 10 on the back. If they wanted to fix it they would do the vehicles like the Deff Skullz codex out of the Waaaagh. A battle wagon is not that hard to make go boom. its not like we can hit the broad side of a barn. Heck we dont even have auto hitting zzap gunz any more. And you will have most of the time 2 whole turns to shoot at us. if you cant hit the wagon and do something to it buy new dice.


A friend of mine brought up a good point. To add a boarding plank, power claw, and a nob is forty points. Mathammer wise, it is about the same as a deffroller. So that is the max that a deffroller should cost. Twenty points is cheap, but to make it much more expensive would be dumb as well. It is almost the perfect cost considering its weaknesses and use. At most, ten extra points is the most it should cost. Since that isn't going to happen, you might be better off developing tactics to deal with the inevitable competative deffrollers. 

My two cents.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Old Rednek said:


> Madein Manaic please... its not that horrible solution... you just got to pop something with a 12 AV on the side 10 on the back. If they wanted to fix it they would do the vehicles like the Deff Skullz codex out of the Waaaagh. A battle wagon is not that hard to make go boom. its not like we can hit the broad side of a barn. Heck we dont even have auto hitting zzap gunz any more. And you will have most of the time 2 whole turns to shoot at us. if you cant hit the wagon and do something to it buy new dice.


You obviously fail to see my point here.

Im not saying its the end of the game, and Im not saying that Battlewagons can not be killed.

My point is that Orks are designed to be bad against Land Raider equivalent vehicles. That is the way they are ment to work, regardless of if the players like it or not, just like Tau are designed to be crap in CC.

This is both a cheap solution points wise, and a solution that does not "require" any extra units to be included in the army, thus a sad and booring ruling that will do nothing but streamline the metagame even more. Battlewagons are almost mandatory as it is right now, this will only strengthen that "mandatory" status. The only difference is that even more Battlewagons will be the way now, combined with a KFF in the middle.

That is why I dislike it.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MaidenManiac said:


> My point is that Orks are designed to be bad against Land Raider equivalent vehicles. That is the way they are ment to work, regardless of if the players like it or not, just like Tau are designed to be crap in CC.


Right, but since they've confirmed that the Deff Rolla works against vehicles, then it's pretty safe to say that that's how they intended the thing to work the entire time while they developed the book.

Orks are supposed to have a hard time dealing with _anything_ at range, hence they pathetic Ballistic Skill. They're meant to dominate in close combat though, so upgrades like deffa rollas and boarding planks make perfect sense.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Orks are *supposed* to have a hard time dealing with _anything_ at range, hence they pathetic Ballistic Skill. They're meant to dominate in close combat though, so upgrades like deffa rollas and boarding planks make perfect sense.


Which is why they are one of the few armies in the game that have the ability to always have cover saves... on their tanks as well? 

Makes my DH shrouding seem kinda petty when your effectively fielding a unit with 31 wounds, fearless, 5+ invul, 120 attacks, 4 power weapon attacks, waaagh, and furious charge.


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## Herr-Flick (Nov 13, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Which is why they are one of the few armies in the game that have the ability to always have cover saves... on their tanks as well?
> 
> Makes my DH shrouding seem kinda petty when your effectively fielding a unit with 31 wounds, fearless, 5+ invul, 120 attacks, 4 power weapon attacks, waaagh, and furious charge.


And still ork mobs get stomped half of the time if they dont have the charge.... oh and its 5+ cover thats not nearly as good as invuln and those stats are on the charge not standard.

Im not saying orks are underpowered, but their not as overpowered as you make them out to be. 

However to work with orks you need to think about how your gonna deploy and move your army a bit more so they wont be to exposed and get into cc with enough numbers to stay effective. It might be that that makes them so tough to beat and the fact their orks usually are specialised at what they do . 
From the games i have played ive noticed a tendency in meq using players that they dont move a whole lot with their units or just come charging in blindly not really givving much thought about the terrain.

ps: Yes i know there are a lot of tacticly playing meq players are out there, its just something ive noticed.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Orks are comming up front with deathrolla battlewagons..CHAAARGE!!!

Im reading this thread and am happy this is one topic i wont ever have to think about as im sure there wont be a single battlewagon player here localy


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

The problem is that this is another rule which makes an army with non-range AT weapons (e.g. World Eaters ) more unattractive. It forces me as a CSM player even more to go for oblits.
In the metagame it is now highly important to kill transports very early in the game. Everything is mech and dead dangerous. If you build your army you always have to consider mech, because nearly every army is equipped for this deadly tactic. This limits the variability of army lists you encounter. That makes the game bland. The more different the approaches are with which the different armies are trying to win, the more variant the lists you can field are.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

To further shine some light on my point lets have a look at what BigRed over at BOLS thinks about the new details:



> _~Overall I think the FAQ reduces the fun of the game. No matter the justification, a piece of wargear that allows you to automatically hit most enemy vehicles for d6 S10 hits is not fun, especially when the wargear has no drawbacks. That doesn’t mean the sky is falling, and it doesn’t mean that the overall balance of the game has greatly shifted (the slight shift towards Orks is unlikely to change the numbers of Ork players substantially). What Deff Rollas being able to hit vehicles means is that sometimes you’ll have to use your head and some tactical sense and move away from them; hardly a gamebreaker, eh?_


Couldnt have said (and obviously failed to say) it better myself.


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## Herr-Flick (Nov 13, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> To further shine some light on my point lets have a look at what BigRed over at BOLS thinks about the new details:
> 
> Couldnt have said (and obviously failed to say) it better myself.


hehe funny thing then, this is exactly the reason why i think the game got more fun becouse of the FAQ.

Imo its a good thing if you need to think about your army tactics some more, this makes it more of a challange for your opponent and that creates more fun (in my opinion ofc)


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

I really dont think that deff rollas are gonna change much in the meta..
Its not like ork battlewagons can ram turn 1 or even turn 2 and if you failed to kill them by turn 3 perhaps you lack anti-tank..
Battlewagons are easy to immobilize or kill because they are open topped, and in any case their cargo is still more dangerous than the deff rolla.
As for the BOLS report the LRs could have moved in front of a brood of carnifexes for same effect...


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

Jernmajoren said:


> I really dont think that deff rollas are gonna change much in the meta..
> Its not like ork battlewagons can ram turn 1 or even turn 2 and if you failed to kill them by turn 3 perhaps you lack anti-tank..
> Battlewagons are easy to immobilize or kill because they are open topped, and in any case their cargo is still more dangerous than the deff rolla.
> As for the BOLS report the LRs could have moved in front of a brood of carnifexes for same effect...


Except that a brood of carnifexes are a bit more expensive than a Battlewagon with Deffroller....


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## Herr-Flick (Nov 13, 2009)

Maybe becouse they can do a bit more than roll over things and transport some troops


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

b.anthracis said:


> Except that a brood of carnifexes are a bit more expensive than a Battlewagon with Deffroller....


In the BOLS report the LRs were run over by 3 battlewagons so the cost would be somewhat similar depending on upgrades, and my point is moving in front of either would be equally stupid to do and really proves nothing except that its a stupid thing to do...

On average a carnifex and a battlewagon would both have roughly the same chance of killing a fast moving LR, a carnifex will kill a immobile LR much easier so I think they are comparable in that regard even if the points are slightly different.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

b.anthracis said:


> The problem is that this is another rule which makes an army with non-range AT weapons (e.g. World Eaters ) more unattractive. It forces me as a CSM player even more to go for oblits.


why more Oblits? Termies with combi-metlas seems better to me...

we've always played that the Deffrolla works in rams and my friend who plays CSM always would just deep strike termies and blow them up shooting at the rear with a Metla. even if you not with in half range you a 2 will glance, witch is like a pen on a normal vehicle because of open topped and ap1, and a 3+ will pen and once again because of open topped and ap1 will destroy the wagon on a 3+.


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## wargamereric (Jan 20, 2010)

Between Lootas and Deffrollas the Orks shouldn't be complaining about AV anymore 

2 Loota groups can pretty easily maim or destroy 2 transports every turn. Battlewagons clean up the higher AV 

In 1,000 pt game I've had a friend field 30 lootas just for fun a few games in a row, he consistently popped next to all my transports by the top of turn 3. 

I still won a few games and tied some, but geeze the transport tank busting ability of lootas is just nuts


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

Da Joka said:


> why more Oblits? Termies with combi-metlas seems better to me...
> 
> we've always played that the Deffrolla works in rams and my friend who plays CSM always would just deep strike termies and blow them up shooting at the rear with a Metla. even if you not with in half range you a 2 will glance, witch is like a pen on a normal vehicle because of open topped and ap1, and a 3+ will pen and once again because of open topped and ap1 will destroy the wagon on a 3+.


Problem with DS Termis, they are unreliable when they arrive. For killing a Battlewagon which is smashing into my lines, they might arrive to late. They are good for killing tanks which are staying behind or artillery hiding behind a building or something like that. But those Battlewagons must be stopped a good way before your own troops. Therefore Oblits which are not DSing.


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## Spider (Feb 17, 2010)

I really don’t think this is going to make much difference to your normal battlewagon powerbuild which seems to typically be:

Ghazghkull + 6 Meganob + Mek with Kustom Force Field in red Battlewagon with claw
10 Burna boyz in red Battlewagon with claw
18 boyz + Nob with powerclaw in red Battlewagon with claw
18 boyz + Nob with powerclaw in red Battlewagon with claw

Maybe some people will shave off a burna and a boyz to put a deff rolla in but the main tactic here is the inevitable Ghazghkull Waargh = 27” of movement (battlewagon 13 + disembark 2 + run 6 + assault 6). This will normally get to you on the second turn. The battlewagons don’t get close enough to ram you. Their role is to deliver the troops safely and then go off and contest objectives or in the case of the one containing the burnas drive around roasting things. If you are a horde or tough CC army maybe you will survive this otherwise its all about if you have the deployment, firepower and luck to bring them down in the initial one or two rounds of shooting you get.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

Don't freak out. One Upgrade on one unit on one codex getting better dosen't change the metagame. The BOLS video report was just stupid. Well maybe if I let your units doe exactly what they are specifically designed to do against the best possible target for them to do it in our one playtest they are overpowered. It dosen't change the fact that orks lack melta or other highly efficient anti tank. besides at 1500 I would be suprised to see an ork list with more then 4 deffrollas. yes they'll kill a few transports but melta will kill them as will any other AT. 

They don't do a lot to correct the ork armies flaws and though they alleviate some problems they don't do a lot to help.


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