# The Deceiver vs Tzneetch



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So I'm pretty clueless as to the power comparisons of Necron gods vs Chaos gods but the Deceiver and Tzneetch seem pretty similar in their use of powers. What would happen if the two got into a duel?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

There is no comparison.

Tzeentech is the very act of deception, the idea itself.

The other simply is deceitful by nature.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The Deceiver is also a bunch of shards now rather than the deceiver as a star god, so tzeentch wins pretty easily

The deceiver did use similar styles of action though, just looked how he persuaded/ tricked the necrontyr into becoming the necrons. A whole specie commiting total self genocide


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So is it just assumed that the gods of Chaos are stronger than all the Necron gods in their full form? 

Aside from the Emperor, is there anyone or anything stronger than the Chaos gods?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

SoL Berzerker said:


> So is it just assumed that the gods of Chaos are stronger than all the Necron gods in their full form?


Not really, this is just something you form an opinion of yourself. The Chaos Gods are bound to the very warp itself while the c'tan are bound to the fabric of the Materium. At this point it's easy to say Chaos is the bigger threat simply because most c'tan shards are contained. And even though each shard possesses the same near limitless power of its complete self, their shattered memories and awareness seem to diminish what they can/will do in any given scenario. 



SoL Berzerker said:


> Aside from the Emperor, is there anyone or anything stronger than the Chaos gods?


We cannot confirm the Emperor's superiority to the Chaos Gods. He seems resistant to their corrupting influence for sure, but actually stronger? Again this is something you only really have an opinion on as there's no real confirmation either way. 


As to the original question, you're comparing something that by rights should never be able to take place. Both have reality bending powers and both have a very intimate knowledge of how to manipulate others to do their bidding. But whereas Tzeentch is formed partially from the very concept of deceit and scheming, Mephet'ran instead _chooses_ to behave that way and proves highly efficient at it.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Where is Empy? He is pretty much the greatest magnificent bastard ever fluffed out and should be in the running as he is as powerful as anything that can eat stars, as crafty as any man this side of Conan and as good as they can become.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Beaviz81 said:


> Where is Empy? He is pretty much the greatest magnificent bastard ever fluffed out and should be in the running as he is as powerful as anything that can eat stars, as crafty as any man this side of Conan and as good as they can become.


Read the post above you, the Emperor is powerfull that's for sure but for as far as I can tell still human.

OT: I recall having read in the latest Daemon codex that the exact same thing happened to Tzeentch as he was once the most powerfull Chaos God of all. His essence was shattered and what remains is only a figment of his former self. Besides Tzeentch gains more power from the Deceiver himself because the very act of scheming on itself fuels Tzeentch power. I see absolutely no reason why these two would ever fight as they are in fact constantly aiding eachother.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Empy is like Superman getting ultrapowers getting god-powers, that's how human he is, he has the combined powers of 8000 Alpha Plus-psykers inside him and is a god in all but name, that's how human Empy is. He is the mightiest thing ever made flesh. He took the mightiest C'tan and did he kill it? No he mind-raped it and imprisoned it on Mars. He is more than powerful enough to qualify. Next question.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> Tzeentch gains more power from the Deceiver himself because the very act of scheming on itself fuels Tzeentch power.


I see nothing to support this. Tzeentch feeds on emotion, but as the c'tan have no ties to the warp such an act would mean little to Tzeentch coming from The Deceiver no matter how well plotted it was. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Empy is like Superman getting ultrapowers getting god-powers, that's how human he is, he has the combined powers of 8000 Alpha Plus-psykers inside him and is a god in all but name, that's how human Empy is. He is the mightiest thing ever made flesh. He took the mightiest C'tan and did he kill it? No he mind-raped it and imprisoned it on Mars. He is more than powerful enough to qualify. Next question.


He didn't kill it and couldn't have if he wanted to. Did he deliberately set this up or simply adapt his situation? We don't know for sure but we do know these following facts: 

The Deceiver cannot be killed. 
Tzeentch cannot be killed. 
The Emperor is dying. 

I will also point out that the power of 8000 psykers is pathetic compared to the power of a Chaos god that has been feeding on emotion since the dawn of life itself, or the energy of a being born from the swirling energy present during the early formation of the universe.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> I see nothing to support this. Tzeentch feeds on emotion, but as the c'tan have no ties to the warp such an act would mean little to Tzeentch coming from The Deceiver no matter how well plotted it was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Empy might be dying or ascending. That GW has always left up to interpretation. None is right, none is wrong. That is the basic foundation of 40k. that can't even be discussed.

What about the tens of thousands Empy feeds on every day? I mean he is a shadow of himself, but he through sheer willpower holds himself and the IOM together, that to me speaks of a god made flesh mightier than most god even in undeath.

As for something else, I have never understood the wish of the fans of the Crons to nerf Empy. Why the wish for it? Just to make the Crons seem like a reminder of the non-stroke-marred man you think of them to be? I mean Empy is the most powerful being made fluff, so him getting the Void Dragon should be a compliment not something to hate. I mean the Crons have no cohesion compared to the IOM and are separate tribes slowly waking up and being busy with eachother. people seem to overstate their threat as orks, chaos, nids and insurrection are all before them in the long queue to make life hell for the IOM.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The Emperor is dying.


Well, considering he is a perpetual, I doubt dying means much to him compared to its impact on the rest of the Imperium


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well it's at best difficult to argue with the fans of the Crons especially as they so strongly rally behind the codex Matt Ward wrote about them (honestly his codexes are works of propaganda and from POVs for me). Which means they like the more dogged fans of the Ultramarines won't agree to the POV-sentiment easily, while everyone else does.

I can sort of understand them, I mean I have faced similar things when arguing about fluff as a rather fanatical and dogmatic Space Wolf-fan. It's little fun for me when people goes up against fluff and biology and tells me humans can turn into wolves. But then again in my interpretation Empy is the most powerful being ever fluffed out, and he taking someone alive is something good. It's that pure and simple. It's all POV, and maybe fans doesn't respect that enough.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Empy might be dying or ascending. That GW has always left up to interpretation. None is right, none is wrong. That is the basic foundation of 40k. that can't even be discussed.
> 
> What about the tens of thousands Empy feeds on every day? I mean he is a shadow of himself, but he through sheer willpower holds himself and the IOM together, that to me speaks of a god made flesh mightier than most god even in undeath.


Consider then the outcome, regardless of what happens. If the Emperor dies, the Imperium dies. If the Emperor is perpetual, his rebirth may still be too late to stop the destruction of Terra. And if the Emperor ascends he will become simply another warp god among dozens to have come and gone. 

His flesh is slowly failing, he requires the deaths of a thousand psykers daily just to keep himself alive enough to guide the astronimicon. To me that doesn't sound much like impending apotheosis, it sounds more like throwing more and more coal on a fire in a desperate frenzy to keep the thing burning. 



Beaviz81 said:


> As for something else, I have never understood the wish of the fans of the Crons to nerf Empy. Why the wish for it? Just to make the Crons seem like a reminder of the non-stroke-marred man you think of them to be? I mean Empy is the most powerful being made fluff, so him getting the Void Dragon should be a compliment not something to hate. I mean the Crons have no cohesion compared to the IOM and are separate tribes slowly waking up and being busy with eachother. people seem to overstate their threat as orks, chaos, nids and insurrection are all before them in the long queue to make life hell for the IOM.


Regardless of McNeill's original intention in writing that particular lore, the current canon assumes that what the Emperor fought was a shard. Which means it was not at its most lethal and it was not impossible for someone to defeat it. It never really sat well with me that a mortal, however powerful, could defeat something born of the universe;s very fabric and energy, but given the diminished faculties of a shard I now find this story more believable. 



Nashnir said:


> Well, considering he is a perpetual, I doubt dying means much to him compared to its impact on the rest of the Imperium


Perhaps dying would not be the end for him, but considering the victory it would grant to Chaos it would still mean the undoing of potentially forty thousand years of planning and manipulations. So if he does indeed have a contingency plan, I expect it consists of a fair bit more than simply die, reirth, lol. :no: 



Beaviz81 said:


> Well it's at best difficult to argue with the fans of the Crons especially as they so strongly rally behind the codex Matt Ward wrote about them (honestly his codexes are works of propaganda and from POVs for me). Which means they like the more dogged fans of the Ultramarines won't agree to the POV-sentiment easily, while everyone else does.


What codex isn't a work of propaganda? Every edition of the tyranid codex I've read basically says their victory is all but inevitable, every ork codex hints strongly that they will never be stopped, every Chaos codex says theirs will be the final victory. 

But I'll humour your for a moment here, remember the last necron codex? Legions upon legions of unkillable metal deathbots are rising from long dead worlds and even worlds that the Imperium has settled on and leaving no trace of life, tyranid Hive Fleets are diverting around dead worlds (Not passing, avoiding) and at their lead were a group of primeordial star gods who each held the power and the will to extinguish entire solar systems for pleasure as much as sustanence. It was implied that the Deceiver engineered the Gothic War, the Pariah gene and controlled several factions within the Mechanicus. 

Now? They're a fractured Empire, a shadow of a once galaxy spanning dominion that brought the Old Ones to their knees. They are hampered by infighting, malfunctioning tomb protocols and their own finite resources and traditionalist views. The c'tan are even more pathetic, broken by the ones they once called slaves and reduced to glorified attack dogs (granted, attack dogs with star destroying power, but attack dogs nonetheless). 

Nobody with any respect for current lore would consider necrons anywhere near the threat they were made out to be in the past. As a faction, the necrons and the c'tan are on pretty even ground with the other big players. As individuals however, they boast some of the most powerful beings the galaxy (or indeed universe) has ever seen. 



Beaviz81 said:


> I can sort of understand them, I mean I have faced similar things when arguing about fluff as a rather fanatical and dogmatic Space Wolf-fan. It's little fun for me when people goes up against fluff and biology and tells me humans can turn into wolves. But then again in my interpretation Empy is the most powerful being ever fluffed out, and he taking someone alive is something good. It's that pure and simple. It's all POV, and maybe fans doesn't respect that enough.


POV can only justify so much. We know that the warp brings reality breaking power. We know that a psyker can harness this power. We know that the Emperor is the most powerful "human" psyker to have ever lived. We DO NOT know the extent of this power, we can only speculate. 

But if you want to argue POV... Consider this. The Astronomicon is confirmed to be dimming and has blinked out momentarily on one occasion. The Imperial worlds on the outer edges of their held space are losing contact with Terra. To me that speaks of a loss in power rather than a gain.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Somehow the topic shifted from The Deceiver vs. Tzeentch to a hefty discussion about the Emperor.. "Just as planned" Hahaha


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> To me that doesn't sound much like impending apotheosis, it sounds more like throwing more and more coal on a fire in a desperate frenzy to keep the thing burning.


Excellent analogy!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> What about the tens of thousands Empy feeds on every day?


Compared to every single sentient soul in all of history that's nothing.



> I mean he is a shadow of himself, but he through sheer willpower holds himself and the IOM together, that to me speaks of a god made flesh mightier than most god even in undeath.


He doesn't really keep the Imperium together, he's just the lighthouse. If being a really powerful lighthouse is all it takes to be a god in your books, then you must have a lot of gods in there. Of course the very realm that the Emperor's light struggles to breach is the fabric of the Chaos Gods themselves. The Imperium holds itself together through hatred, through fleeting hope and crushing desperation; what are the Chaos Gods again?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> He doesn't really keep the Imperium together, he's just the lighthouse. If being a really powerful lighthouse is all it takes to be a god in your books, then you must have a lot of gods in there. Of course the very realm that the Emperor's light struggles to breach is the fabric of the Chaos Gods themselves. The Imperium holds itself together through hatred, through fleeting hope and crushing desperation; what are the Chaos Gods again?


So him powering the Astronomican and providing the spec of hope for humans nevermind allowing for interstellar travel have nothing to do with the survival of the Imperium of Mankind? Wow I really need a bottle of absint to my head.

And again the Chaos is good? Sure believe it despite the depictions in fluff. I mean comeon you have the most evil and deranged persons like Kharn, Abbaddon, Ahriman, Fabius Bile and such as their servants and you still call them the good guys. Of course they are just the misunderstood servants of the good gods that's Chaos, right?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> So him powering the Astronomican and providing the spec of hope for humans nevermind allowing for interstellar travel have nothing to do with the survival of the Imperium of Mankind? Wow I really need a bottle of absint to my head.


Interstellar travel was possible before the Emperor, it is possible now without him and it will still be possible after he is gone/ascended/whatever. The presence of Chaos and the turbulence in the warp makes it difficult, not impossible. 



Beaviz81 said:


> And again the Chaos is good? Sure believe it despite the depictions in fluff. I mean comeon you have the most evil and deranged persons like Kharn, Abbaddon, Ahriman, Fabius Bile and such as their servants and you still call them the good guys. Of course they are just the misunderstood servants of the good gods that's Chaos, right?


The Chaos Gods are completely ambiguous, nobody ever claimed they were good, simply that they weren't evil.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Where have you seen the Chaos Gods as anything but evil in the fluff Serpion?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Where have you seen the Chaos Gods as anything but evil in the fluff Serpion?


Haven't we been through this enough times, wasn't it you on another thread? 
Evil is a only seen from one's point of view, you may see all the chaos gods as evil but the chaos gods/their followers may not see them as evil. 

What's the difference from a freedom fighter, terrorist, and a rebel?


The point of view


Serpion does not see the chaos gods as evil. I see Nurgle being the only slightly good chaos god, he cares about his followers and protects their souls.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Where have you seen the Chaos Gods as anything but evil in the fluff Serpion?


Hummmm, everywhere. Find me a few examples of them being evil then.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

I've always held the opinion of Chaos being just as evil as the Imperium.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Hummmm, everywhere. Find me a few examples of them being evil then.


Try reading their basic profiles Khorne is rage, hatred, violence and bloodshed purely evil emotions. Tzeentch, okay only plotting seems to be a mainly evil feeling there, but it's evil at least according to the dictionary I used. Morbidity is not a nice sounding word nor is death Nurgle. And pain, a god driven by pain, how can that be anything but evil? Okay She who Thirsts has other aspects like lust, pleasure and greed.

I can see that your argument has some merit, but they are mainly fed negative aspects of the emotions they feed upon which dooms them to becoming evil anyway due to how crapsacky the universe of 40k. is.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Try reading their basic profiles Khorne is rage, hatred, violence and bloodshed purely evil emotions. Tzeentch, okay only plotting seems to be a mainly evil feeling there, but it's evil at least according to the dictionary I used. Morbidity is not a nice sounding word nor is death Nurgle. And pain, a god driven by pain, how can that be anything but evil? Okay She who Thirsts has other aspects like lust, pleasure and greed.


Khorne is also honour, courage & martial prowess.
Nurgle is also tradition, compassion & mercy.
Tzeentch is also hope, ambition & thirst for knowledge.
Slaanesh is also love, pursuit of perfection & pride.

Is honour, tradition, hope & love evil? Those emotions & acts still feed the Gods and are also aspects of them.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ain't that Brighthammer 40.000? The Chaos Gods being that?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ain't that Brighthammer 40.000? The Chaos Gods being that?


Nurgle is not pain, he is the absent of pain, sure his diseases causes pain, but so long as you worship him you will never feel pain in your corrupted life. Nurgle treats all of his worshipers like his kids, sure in a twisted way. Any who have his diseases and serve him are granted demon hood, lesser. 
Chaos SM/Daemons codex 5th ed.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Nurgle is not pain, he is the absent of pain, sure his diseases causes pain, but so long as you worship him you will never feel pain in your corrupted life. Nurgle treats all of his worshipers like his kids, sure in a twisted way. Any who have his diseases and serve him are granted demon hood, lesser.
> Chaos SM/Daemons codex 5th ed.


Huh? Nurgle being pain? I was referring to Slaanesh.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Huh? Nurgle being pain? I was referring to Slaanesh.


Slaanesh is any excess/large sensation, no matter what it is.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Slaanesh is any excess/large sensation, no matter what it is.


Then think of excess of pain and you have Slaanesh.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Try reading their basic profiles Khorne is rage, hatred, violence and bloodshed purely evil emotions. Tzeentch, okay only plotting seems to be a mainly evil feeling there, but it's evil at least according to the dictionary I used. Morbidity is not a nice sounding word nor is death Nurgle. And pain, a god driven by pain, how can that be anything but evil? Okay She who Thirsts has other aspects like lust, pleasure and greed.


Their emotional aspects do not convey examples of them being evil. Just what they are, which is still ambiguous. 

Anger and hate can be applied across almost any situation and are not solely traits of evil individuals. Plotting and planning is not an evil act in itself, as schemes can be intended to have a benevolent outcome. Death is simply a fact of existence and cannot be referred to as evil. And desire also is something that even the purest templar will feel whether he admits it or not. 

I was asking you to refer me to examples of the gods' behaviour mate, not what they are.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Serpion5 said:


> Their emotional aspects do not convey examples of them being evil. Just what they are, which is still ambiguous.
> 
> Anger and hate can be applied across almost any situation and are not solely traits of evil individuals. Plotting and planning is not an evil act in itself, as schemes can be intended to have a benevolent outcome. Death is simply a fact of existence and cannot be referred to as evil. And desire also is something that even the purest templar will feel whether he admits it or not.
> 
> I was asking you to refer me to examples of the gods' behaviour mate, not what they are.


The concept of good and evil lies in the eye of the beholder. Someone that doesn't value the same principles as you isn't necissarily "evil". A serial killer can truly believe that he is doing the right thing by killing people even tough murder is considered wrong by society.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> The concept of good and evil lies in the eye of the beholder. Someone that doesn't value the same principles as you isn't necissarily "evil". A serial killer can truly believe that he is doing the right thing by killing people even tough murder is considered wrong by society.


Which means there is no universal good or evil correct?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Nashnir said:


> Well, considering he is a perpetual, I doubt dying means much to him compared to its impact on the rest of the Imperium


What exactly is a perpetual though?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What exactly is a perpetual though?


That's what I'd like to know. How they operate seems to differ depending on who's writing about them. Ollanius Persson just seemed like someone who hasn't aged a day in the last several thousand years. Damon Prytanis seemed to be able to rapidly completely revive and heal his adult body after having it pretty much melted to almost nothing. Cyrene similarly was restored perfectly, in fact in better shape than she was when she died (though whether that was because of Erebus's ceremony I don't know). Not sure where Grammaticus falls in. He resurrects as well, and if he did in fact fling himself out of the airlock at the end of _Legion_ then he is similar to Prytanis in that he comes back in the same form he was before he died. To me it almost seems like perpetuals will, upon rebirth, return to the state they were in when they actually became a perpetual in the first place.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Serpion5 said:


> Which means there is no universal good or evil correct?


Correct


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