# Dark elves help please!!



## Typhos

Hey, my wife and I have just recently bought a couple of battalions. One Empire and one Dark Elves. 

I don't know much about the dark elves. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a good start after the battalion? A sorceress? Or maybe a bolt thrower? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!


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## Farseer Darvaleth

This forum http://www.druchii.net/ should have plenty of information for you. Although they aren't perhaps the best model for a beginner to try and assemble, Hydras are awesome. Don't go for Bolt Throwers, fairly useless, I would definitely get a Sorceress though as you need a Hero to field an army (for the general).


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## Orochi

To add to the Battalion, to get a fairly rounded army.

-A Sorceress. 
-Another box of spearmen to add to the ones from the battalion (spearmen, like many low grade troops need to be fielded en masse to achieve anything).
-A small unit of 6-8 Shades or Harpies.
-A Hydra. 

Once you have these units, it's simply a matter of finding what works for you.
-An additional character to act as a general is always a good thought. As is a BSB.
-Another Hydra is a personal favourite.
-A unit of Black Guard or Witch Elves
-More Cavalry


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## Dave T Hobbit

Moved to Warhammer Tactics to increase possible responses.


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## Typhos

Thanks, Dave. 

So you think those units would be a good match for empire?


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## DivineEdge

Yeah. As for heroes at a small-points level, you will probably need a sorcereress and a BSB (less mandatory now). 

You will need a special unit. Best infantry in the black guard by far. Witch elves are number 2, executioners suck. I'll just say it again for emphasis - black guard rock. As do hydras. Already mentioned but 2 of the MVPs in the book. 

Cold one knights are decent but need a BSB to function well because stupidity is a test dark elves can't afford to fail. 

An unkillable dreadlord (pendant of kealaeth, armour of darkness, crown of command etc) is always awesome at holding things up and killing a few folks.

If the empire army is bringing a combat-oriented army then have no fear of going toe to toe. You should win. Magic is a huge strength of the dark elves, so play to that. If they are bringing a shooty army or gunline type list, then some dark riders or shades to eliminate war machines are nice, and from their repeater crossbowmen can bring the hurt as much/more then their shooty infantry. Once again, they will fare worse in combat. 

The empire is a well balanced book, but dark elves are top-tier. 

A decently balanced list to work to for around 2.5k (no points values here) rough outline:

Supreme Sorceress with Sac. Dagger (Level 4) (goes in spearmen)

Unkillable dreadlord on pegasus

Sorceress (Level 2) with Tome of Furion 

Large group (preferably 30+) spearmen

2-3 squads of 10-14 repeater xbowmen

For specials, either do:

2 squads of maxed out black guard with the AP banners

Or, drop one for a group of knights with the hydra banner/hag graef banner.

As for rares, a hydra or two is good, and bolt throwers are only good if you take large groups of them, so you can annihiliate/render useless one unit per turn. 

Hopefully this was at least moderately helpful.


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## Typhos

Great advice. I'm going to purchase some black guard and a couple of hydras. Also a sorceress. 

Any special characters I should pick up while I'm there?


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## Orochi

No, Dark Elf special characters are a dirty lie.


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## Typhos

I know the big one are costly, but the sorceress is a level 4 wizard plus knows everything!!


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## Farseer Darvaleth

It's nice to theme, but not as cost-effective as generic characters.

As for Black Guard, I know DivineEdge has sung their praises, and I'm not going to flat-out say he's wrong or anything, but don't take one view as gospel. Perhaps it differs from area to area, but in my experience Black Guard have been fairly mediocre, due to their relatively small (compared to the rest of Fantasy these days) unit size. Executioners with the ASF banner have been better for me personally. Again, I'm not saying DivineEdge is wrong, but just want you to appreciate that one specific unit is not going to win you a game by itself, and that there is a whole spectrum of opinions out there; it's best to find what works for you.


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## Typhos

But you agree on the hydras?

Also, since independent characters are so expensive (but good) what should I use as a hq unit?


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Hydras are undeniably a stellar unit when used properly, and they are one of the things the book is feared for. Just watch out for the flaming banner or fire wizards! You can help mitigate the latter somewhat by taking a Supreme Sorceress as your "HQ" (we call them Generals in fantasy :grin: ), going for Level 4 and getting that +4 to dispel bonus.


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## Typhos

That sounds like a good idea. 

I'm looking to buy some models online as I can find them a lot easier. Any good places to get them, that you know of?


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## Orochi

www.giftsforgeeks.org.uk tends to be reasonably cheap (in comparison).


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## DivineEdge

I've heard a lot of people like witch elves, but too many never think executioners are great. (but always an ASF horde)

See, to make executioners even halfway decent, they need the banner of hag graef. But they can't take it, so you spend a lot of points on a crappy unit (death hag), with the banner. She can die super-easily and then things aren't good at all. If you run into anything with ASF then you are really screwed. Now they will strike at I order, and be vicious, sure, but BG wouldn't be in hordes even if they could. They are meant as an evil hammer to decimate the enemy. They shouldn't ever flee, that is what ld9 stubborn does for you, and you will kill a crapton with s4 armour piercing.

The exec. unit has to be inordinately expensive to be even decent, which is the problem. You are favoring it to bring it up to par, and even then I don't like it. 8th edition made hordes viable and strong, but not for 12 point models that become largely ineffectual when a paper character dies. There are lots of small effective units - high elves and warriors. Hordes are a way to make weaker infantry punchy, or go deathstar with elites. But to each his own. 

Having said that, I've seen them, and they are powerful and can draw a lot of attention.


But if you are starting out, you could avoid all 3 until you figure out which you like as they are all super expensive. (5 for $33 in the USA last I checked, might have gone up).


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## Masked Jackal

The question of which special to go for is mostly a matter of metagame, and what you need in the rest of the list. Each has it's pros and it's cons, though there are some good arguments as to why Exec's are the least of the bunch, but in the end, each has a specific job. 

Witch Elves are great at carving through basic infantry and high toughness models, but are fragile, and can break against armies that have good armor saves. However, considering the other options, Witch Elves are lucrative in combination with Cold One Knights, as those cover high armor save and are somewhat tough themselves, so you don't have to worry about buffing up only the Witch Elves. And, if you tend to face Skaven, or Empire and such, they'll just carve an absolute bloody hole into the enemy the moment they hit combat.

Black-Guard, as stated, can end up being mediocre, but are notable in that, pretty much no matter what they're up against, they'll always do at least decent. It's a shame about the lower unit size, but in smaller games, that's less of an issue.

Executioner's are the dark sheep of the bunch. I've heard of the ASF horde, and I can see how it would put out a lot of damage, but it is also a *lot* of eggs in one basket. If you have a lot of Chaos or Lizardmen, I'd consider it, but against most opponents, it's a point-sink, and one that's really reliant on one character to allow any sort of damage.

Since there's Cold One Knights, the Executioners seem even less appealing. Try out a Cold One Knight block with BoHG, and a character, and you'll have a more maneuverable and durable unit that isn't reliant on a no-armor-save character to carry the whole unit.


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## Typhos

Well I also have an empire army that I'll be using against my Dark Elf army that my wife will be playing, so she'll destroy me. Is that what you're saying?


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## Orochi

Both the armies are quite balanced as far as performances go. I think you should both sit down and think about what units YOU want to take, not what we all suggest. Everything will will say is how to play at optimal, or near, level. It can, in a way, drain the life out of casual gaming.

If you want to beat her, take a gunline army and some Fire wizards.


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## Typhos

My wife won a huge warhammer tournament... I think it was regional... 

I just started playing.


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## Orochi

Oh right! Didn't mean any disrespect.

Congratulations to her!


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## Typhos

No disrespect taken. I was saying that I need the best stuff I can get. Haha. I'm also trying to get an idea of what's good for dark elves so I know what to take care of. I probably should have stated that. Haha. Sorry for any confusion.


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## Masked Jackal

Dark Elves have a lot of good stuff, it's mostly how you put it all together that makes it pay off. As far as obvious, always take choices, it's basically just a strong magic presence with Sorceresses and a Cauldron of Blood BSB. Everything else depends on your own personal playstyle, and what else you take. Since it's Empire you're going up against, try Witch Elves with the aforementioned Cauldron. That 5+ ward save and WE insane damage can work very well. :3


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## Typhos

I was actually thinking of getting the cauldron, as I've used it before. Anything else you think I should add?

I was thinking witch elves as well against my empire. You have some awesome ideas guys! Keep them coming!


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## Steaknchips

Im shocked no one has really pushed shades into the thred. Exelent war machine hunters and backline harrasment. With shadow magic help a unit of 5 can put massive dents into steam tanks. 

My model recomendations are 1-2 sorceresses, couldron bsb, 0-1 noble, 30(bus)-40(horde) spearmen, 5x2 harpie units, 1 special unit of choice, 1-2 hydra, 5-10 shades.


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## MidnightSun

Level 4 Sorceress is mandatory, flavour with Sacrificial Dagger and Tome of Furion. Large blocks of Spearmen are where it's at for a buffer and more Sacrificial Dagger chaff, War Hydras as your counterpunch, Cauldron of Blood as an anchor, more Spearmen and Crossbowmen with Sorceresses as line units.

For the Supreme Sorceress I'd advise the Lore of Shadow, because it's absolutely sickening for it's debuffs and DE easily have the power dice to cast it all reliably.


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## Malekith'sChosen30

I'm not entirely certain that I agree with the cult of the Black Guard here. While I agree that they can be a valuable unit, Dark Elves are very diverse in how you can run your list. For instance, it seems that you're looking into running a straight up warriors and monsters list, using hydras and Black guard. Personally, I like to run executioners, as they are 3 pts cheaper per model and have higher strength. I also don't agree that the characters in the Lords and Heroes choices are underpowered. A good example is Hellebron, who at 8-10 atks at Str 10 with ASF is arguably the best CC character in the game right now. Personally, I like to run a horde of witches, 5 ranks deep, with the Cauldron and Hellebron. In addition, I like to guard one flank of that unit with a unit of executioners, 5x5, with Tullaris and a Supreme Sorc with Lore of Life. For shooting, I take a 10 man unit of Darkshards, a 10 man unit of Shades, and 2 bolt throwers to whittle my enemies down before a charge and weaken flank charges on the unguarded side of the witch unit. Honestly, I've been called a serious cheese monkey using these combos, and I don't necessarily disagree, but effective tactics are still effective regardless of cheese. The beginnings of your army sound interesting though, so please let us know how it playtests. Good luck and have fun!


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