# GW or HW/Shield



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Hi, quite possibly the first Thread I've made in the Fantasy section...might be because I haven't played a single game in 8th Ed yet, but that's about to change:biggrin:

I've noticed that GW's are generally chosen over HW/Shield, but I'm just starting to build my Core Troops and can either go with -

- GW
- HW & Shields and the Razor Standard (grants Armour Piercing)

doing the latter will save me 40 pts overall, and the Standard somewhat mitigates the weakness between the HW and GW.

Anyone do this/thoughts/ etc.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Depends on who you're playing


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Depends on who you're playing


Most armies really, but once built the Core won't be changed to suit a particular opponent's list...do they even have all-comers lists in Fantasy WH?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

What armies are you using, And with magic being so random its kinda hard.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

There are such things as all comers lists, but not in the same sense as 40k. I ask what you're using because some troops you want GW some HW and some other options like ADHW or Halberds. 

The "all comers lists" aren't like in 40k were all comers really means "Can this list perform against power armour"


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## Warsmith Drewgie (Oct 26, 2011)

What army are you playing? Your overall statline and special rules could have an impact on which is the better build. For example with my Warriors Of Chaos I prefer hand weapon & shield with the Mark Of Tzeentch as opposed to a great weapon. Simply because my CC stats are already very formidable (probably the best of any core unit in the game, and the shield gives you a 6+ ward save in CC in addition to improving your armor save. The Mark Of Tzeentch improves all ward saves by 1 so this grants me a 3+ armor and 5+ ward in CC. However if I was using a unit with a lower strength and crappy initiative I would go with the Great Weapon.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> What armies are you using, And with magic being so random its kinda hard.


Chaos Dwarfs from the Tamurkhan book...not an army that's well known yet I know. It's very elite and expensive points-wise so that 40 pts would no doubt be a good saving, but I also don't want to give the Infernals a poor build.

I know that the standard Dwarf lists have gone largely with GW over HW, hence my initial worry about waht build to take.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Unfortunately I only have Plague Monks as core, which have to have Additional Hand Weapons to go with frenzy. However if granted I would go HW/shield mainly due to the ward save bonus you get.

I hope you enjoy 8th edition. I really do and do not plan on playing 40K until I believe the system gets better.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> Stephen_Newman said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately I only have Plague Monks as core, which have to have Additional Hand Weapons to go with frenzy. However if granted I would go HW/shield mainly due to the ward save bonus you get.
> ...


Yea, I've played about 200 games of 40K in 5th Ed, so the switch to Fantasy will be a nice change:yahoo:l


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Hobo.....

1). Your a traitor and a member of the rebel alliance! (How dare you not play Empire in Fantasy!)

2). GW and HW/Shield.

The facts and how you decide should be based on a few things to think about and the use of the troops. I will use Empire to illustrate my thinking. 

Sword and Shield will give you a 6+ save or add +1 to your save. For basic troops this is often seen as an expensive option. (But that is dependent on your total costs, for example in Empire terms a sword and board trooper is 8 points.... he will sit there in a mob of 40 or so, and the save becomes irrelevant and points are better spent elesewhere or on more men...) In the case of Chaos Dwarves, I do not know their points.... so is it worth having more ranks more figures.... than having that save? The WHFB game has moved from MSU to larger units for some armies... a standard 2k Empire list should have core troop choices at the 35 to 40 mark, 5 abreast and 7 or 8 ranks deep. or 8 abreast and 4 to 5 deep for horde rules.

As for GW... I use them but on my cavalry. As for troops, they will give you much needed strength, BUT.... consider when you strike.... against elves you will be in a pickle... they can cut you down before you swing and your units will shrink... the hit back is big.... but can you survive till then?

Razor Standard is typical choice for GW as it adds that kill factor even further, but again you have to have the numbers to return the strike..... and I assume your Initiative is already low.... with ASL... that hurts even more. Empire Halberdiers will strike at you before hand, Elves will and most other armies certainly will strike first.

My thoughts in general are; plan your list first... if she is a gunline... great... then make your troops defensive in nature with some flankers and a hitter or two... if your going for the rush forward approach or more balanced, try hammer and anvil tactics... a unit that is solid and protected that can take 10 or 15 casualties.... and a unit that then hits into the side of the enemey unit you have pinned in place and then begin to grind down.

Hope this helps...

And again TRAITOR!!!!


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> > Alexious said:
> >
> >
> > > Hobo.....
> ...


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## Warsmith Drewgie (Oct 26, 2011)

Ahh yes Chaos Dwarves. 

Basically what it boils down to is either way you resolve yourself to the fact that most opponents are going to strike before you. So then you consider do I want to better withstand their attacks and deal less damage in return, or do I want to try and cause more casualties to try and balance out what they caused. 

In my opinion if you are trying to make an "all comers" list do a little of each. The reason I say this is because your Great Weapon is going to serve you better against Chaos Warriors, or well armored opponents, but your hand weapon shield is going to serve you better against fast striking but low toughness opponents (High Elves in particular).

If I was building the army I would probably include some of those fireglaives, but that is because I play Chaos Warriors. The thought of taking ranged hits that reduce my save by 2 is never pleasant, and the fact that you are going to be str5 in CC which would also reduce my save by 2 is equally unsettling. Also I feel this is superior to the great weapon because against slower armies like Dwarves, Orcs, Ogres and some Undead you will strike in initiative order instead of last.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> Alexious said:
> 
> 
> > As for GW... I use them but on my cavalry. As for troops, they will give you much needed strength, BUT.... consider when you strike.... against elves you will be in a pickle... they can cut you down before you swing and your units will shrink... the hit back is big.... but can you survive till then?
> ...


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

pvt message older player he will know the list and have insights too.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

First of all welcome back to fantasy.

I secind what has already been said above,

One unit with HW/Shield and one with GW and obviously be intelligant with your deployment. I would attempt to have the GW unit charge a strong unit (Woc, Orges, Saurus ect) in the flank if at all possible to limit the amount of attacks that your unit takes.

Against weaker opponants (Elves, Humans, Skaven ect) I would take the unit head on as your high toughness and armour save should (hopefully) limit the casulties you take and your high strength should punish their low toughness or armour values.


Also Bull Centaurs rock


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I don't have Tamurkhan yet, so I'll ask you this:

Do the Chaos Dwarfies have God Marks? If so, I'd take HW/S and MoT, so you get a +1 to your already impressive armor save (making it 3+) and you've got a 5+ ward save in combat. Really nice.



I'll also take this opportunity to ask if the Tamurkhan book has rules in it for putting Chaos Dwarves in a WoC army. Because if it does.....I'm gonna have to get some Fireglaives and Iron Daemons soon.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

GW. You need to have a good argument not to. 
The extra protection from the shield isn't very useful overall and it is generally a better option to buy more troops instead. Typically your rank-and-file will have light armor and shield for 5+. Which means 1 of 3 will save from a normal S3 attack. Now consider how many attacks you will receive that are normal S3, no poison, no Armor Piercing. That leaves out handguns, crossbows, skinks, hand weapons from Orcs, Chaos, charging cavalry, and so on. Then add in all War Machines, Str 5 attacks, Monsters, magic, and most characters that ignore armor altogether and there just are too many attacks that will drop your armor back to 6+, or nothing at all. The 6+ ward save also just isn't as effective. It will protect all day, but only 1 of 6 wounds will save. 
To use the Empire example from an earlier post, that's 40 points to save you 1 guy (8 pts) for every 6 wounds received. You will need to receive 30 wounds to make your points back. But you have still lost 25 models anyway! Instead, you could get 5 extra guys, receive the same 30 wounds, and still be at the same final strength. Extra guys is far more useful because in every other circumstance you will have more models which means more ranks for a longer lasting horde, more attacks with spears, fewer Ld tests (or at least in a later turn), etc.
GW should be used only if you need them to beat up dudes in combat. If your unit is a tarpit, get more guys. If your unit is to beat off an attack, get GW. You lose guys but in the new system you will always get an attack back and the S5 from GW will cause many more problems to your opponent than you will receive for losing the shield. S5 turns 3+ cavalry into 5+, wounds Orcs and Dwarves on a 3+, and generally makes an aggressive assault unit suffer badly because those models are normally expensive and few in number and can't be losing models to 8 or 10 point scrubs. They may roll over your unit anyway, but with a horde of S5 attack-backs they won't do it more than once unless they are a horde as well. If your guys can get a Ld boost from the BSB or General and stick around then it becomes even better because you will always attack at a S5.
In the new edition of WH, offense and numbers are the best defense.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Alsojames said:


> I don't have Tamurkhan yet, so I'll ask you this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes you can use them in a WOC list, plus there's a Chaos 'Great Host' armylist in the book that they can be a part of. They can also be included in the Grand Battle that's in the Rulebook, as Allies obviously.

There are certain rules to abide by though...you must have certain characters or units to be able to field other certain units, etc. It's all written out quite clearly in the book so it's easy to followk:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I've yet to open my Tamurkhan. I've decided to keep it for Xmas present (along with Blood in the Badlands, and if IA11 is released, that too), so I don't know too much about the army.

If I remember the Sorcerors have access to Shadow Magic. Personally, that's my favourite Lore, and would double up well for Dwarves.

They have access to spells which double up as a Cannonball, a Vortex which preys on Low Initiative, the ability to lower initiative and toughness, as well as the ability to cast Mindrazor, which grants you the ability to strike at your Leadership Test.

Now, admittedly, Magic is so random, but if the rules of a Sorceror Lord with Shadow Magic on a Lammasu are any way like I expect, then I can expect that you'll be capable of pretty much dominating - doubly so if you back up with a Hashut to take on any Hydra's/Treemen bombing around.

Great Weapons gives you S5. I wouldn't even really bother with AP. I might consider taking a Great Weapon+AP Banner on a unit dedicated to taking on armoured units like Chaos Warriors and their like - with their stats that make even fighter heroes jealous, they can afford to just whack around with Sword and Board and make dents in things they hit as if they were Halberd/GW wielding elites - often even better than those.

Give the Infernal Guard Sword and Board and buff with Mindrazor - You've got a 3+/6++ with S9.

Bull Centaurs - if these are anything like Dragon Ogres in ability (4 wounds, 4+ Armour, AHW and GW options, S5), I'd take both HW and GW on them - expensive but that way you can put them up against something like Chaos Knights or Blood Knights, and bring them down to a 5+ or 6+ Armour Save. The HW means that they can charge into infantry as well - 4 Attacks and Stomp quickly demolish many units.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

As to HW/Shield verus 2HW, here's my take on it, having run Tamurkahn CDs.

I never use 2HW, because many of my opponents take Stomp-capable units. I'd rather thin them out at I:2 than go simultaneously at Always Strike Last. The ward save is a bonus. Alternatively, consider the Fireglaive, which gives you +1 STR at I:2 and a gun, but loses the parry/shield bonus. That's the way to fight, I think. 

Bull Centaurs are heavy cav when fully equipped. This precludes using GW and AHW, as they get a shield in this configuration. You can't use HW if you have a different weapon in 8th. You have to use the "upgrade".


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The Additional Hand Weapon is the upgrade. The Additional Hand Weapons rules are Extra Attack and Requires 2 Hands.

By the word of the rules, Additional Hand Weapon is the upgrade - it only means you can't use the Hand Weapon and Shield for Parry save and +1 Armour save in place of a Great Weapon, but you can use Additional Hand Weapon in place of a Great Weapon.

And are Bull Centaurs really cavalry? Well that sucks. Was hoping they'd be be Monstrous Infantry.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Vaz said:


> And are Bull Centaurs really cavalry? Well that sucks. Was hoping they'd be be Monstrous Infantry.


Centaurs Troop Type says that they're Monsterous Beasts...K'daai Fireborn are Monsterous Infantry.

Both these units end up the same points for a unit of 6, well after the upgrades I have given them anyway.


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