# Did any legion actually like working with the Alpha Legion on campaigns? *spoilers*



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

In Fear to Tread I have noticed when the Blood Angels are working with the Alpha Legion on a compaign, all they did the entire time was complain that the AL was utilizing them as a mere picket fence.

Additionally sanguinus was stating that Alpharius rarely held communications with the Blood Angels, save for rare messages stating "stay to the plan".

Furthmore when Alpharius originally was telling the plan to sanguinus, he stated the campaign would take five years to complete with both of them cooperating. Sanguinus than said "No it will be completed in one year (takes 13 months actually)".

It just makes me feel that maybe the Alpha Legion wasn't all they were cracked up to be, I feel that maybe one weakness they had was that they took a ridiculous amount of time to complete campaigns thus making them a inefficient legion (but still effective) for campaigns (time wise).

Also Horus had basically told Alpharius he wouldn't be helping him, when Alpharius directly requested from Horus to lend him ships from his legion to aid him in his campaign. The book goes on to comment that Horus was reluctant to lend him elements from his legion due to a previous campaign where the Lunar Wolves assisting Alpharius took horrendous losses.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lux said:


> In Fear to Tread I have noticed when the Blood Angels are working with the Alpha Legion on a compaign, all they did the entire time was complain that the AL was utilizing them as a mere picket fence.


Negative. They used them as an anvil to the Alpha Legion's hammer.

"First one at a time, then in squadrons and finally in fleets, the orks began to flee from Kayvas. Each time they bolted for open space beyond the mass shadow of the supergiant sun and asteroid belt, the Blood Angels were waiting for them."



Lux said:


> Furthmore when Alpharius originally was telling the plan to sanguinus, he stated the campaign would take five years to complete with both of them cooperating. Sanguinus than said "No it will be completed in one year (takes 13 months actually)".
> 
> It just makes me feel that maybe the Alpha Legion wasn't all they were cracked up to be, I feel that maybe one weakness they had was that they took a ridiculous amount of time to complete campaigns thus making them a inefficient legion (but still effective) for campaigns (time wise).


The Alpha Legion's plan probably wasn't to have such an overwhelming level of force available. Sangy went out all out.

"The Angel rejected that [it would take five years] and promised it would be over in one, committing vessels from every active Blood Angels expedition to the cause."

The Alpha Legion, I imagine, try to get the most out of their forces. They probably try to use the fewest number of operatives per a mission while minimizing the number of casualties. They also probably have many dozens, if not hundreds, of operations running at a time. As opposed to some Legions that would utilize their Legion in their entirety against a single system.



Lux said:


> Also Horus had basically told Alpharius he wouldn't be helping him, when Alpharius directly requested from Horus to lend him ships from his legion to aid him in his campaign. The book goes on to comment that Horus was reluctant to lend him elements from his legion due to a previous campaign where the Lunar Wolves assisting Alpharius took horrendous losses.


I don't recall the Sons of Horus taking massive casualities in an AL campaign. The closest passage I could find in the book is this:

"The Alpha Legion had tracked them to their lair and petitioned Horus for the reinforcements required to prosecute their plan of annihilation, but after the war at the world called Murder and the disastrous engagement with the civilisation known as the Interex, the Luna Wolves had been reluctant to commit ships to Alpharius’s campaign."

The AL themselves had nothing to do with Murder. Horus and his Legion were just hurting from another campaign and couldn't spare the men to assist Alpharius.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Lux said:


> It just makes me feel that maybe the Alpha Legion wasn't all they were cracked up to be, I feel that maybe one weakness they had was that they took a ridiculous amount of time to complete campaigns thus making them a inefficient legion (but still effective) for campaigns (time wise).


I'm inclined to believe that the AL was acting under an ulterior motive, here--distracting and tying up the Blood Angels while Horus moved his pieces into position on the galaxy map.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> I'm inclined to believe that the AL was acting under an ulterior motive, here--distracting and tying up the Blood Angels while Horus moved his pieces into position on the galaxy map.


I don't think so...if it was so, why did the AL rush the campaign as quickly as they did?

After all, they expected to take 5 years. The Blood Angels themselves did nothing to accelerate the campaign. They were there to catch the Orks as they fled.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

I cant remember exactly. Did this particular campaign take place after the events on Davin? That would help answer a few questions i'm sure.

Also, hailene, that is a fair point. But then again, perhaps Alpharius didn't expect Sanguinius to show up with as many ships as he did. He may have been expecting less ships, meaning fewer ork ships would be flushed out.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> I'm inclined to believe that the AL was acting under an ulterior motive, here--distracting and tying up the Blood Angels while Horus moved his pieces into position on the galaxy map.


If we assume they encountered the Cabal before planning this campaign(Can't really recall if _Legion_ ever states where it is in relation to the Heresy time line, but I always assumed it was towards the end of the Crusade and start of the Heresy), and therefore were already planning for Horus turning traitor, then it still doesn't quite fit that they would first petition the Luna Wolves for aid in this campaign and then the Blood Angels.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I cant remember exactly. Did this particular campaign take place after the events on Davin? That would help answer a few questions i'm sure.


I'm not quite sure. How long was it between the Kayvas Belt (where the joint AL and BA operation occurred) and Signus Prime happened. The entirety of the Blood Angel legion fought on Signus Prime. That should have taken years to gather.

We know that Horus had already been stabbed by the time Signus Prime occurs, but without knowing how long it took to get to Signus Prime we can't really figure out if Horus had turned before the planning of the Kayvas Belt campaign.

On a side note, do keep in mind that the AL itself had "turned" to Chaos about half a year into Horus's warmastery.



DeathJester921 said:


> Also, hailene, that is a fair point. But then again, perhaps Alpharius didn't expect Sanguinius to show up with as many ships as he did. He may have been expecting less sheps, meaning fewer ork ships would be flushed out.


It didn't really matter how many ships Sangy showed up with. The Emperor could have led the other 17 Legion's warfleets backed up by the entirety of the Imperial Army's fleet. It was the Alpha Legion that decided the pace. The Alpha Legion attacked the Ork bases within the asteroid field and forced the Orks out as well as some undescribed actions that drove the Orks mad. The Alpha Legion set the pace of the campaign. They could have delayed or dawdled and no one would have been the wiser. Remember, the AL did not communicate their own progress. When asked for reports, the AL simply told the BA to hold the line.



Angel of Blood said:


> If we assume they encountered the Cabal before planning this campaign(Can't really recall if _Legion_ ever states where it is in relation to the Heresy time line, but I always assumed it was towards the end of the Crusade and start of the Heresy), and therefore were already planning for Horus turning traitor, then it still doesn't quite fit that they would first petition the Luna Wolves for aid in this campaign and then the Blood Angels.


They made the deal with the Cabal about half a year after Horus became Warmaster. In the conversation between Alpharius and John in _Legion_:

John: Warmaster?
Alpharius: Horus Lupercal is Warmaster.
John: Since when?
Alpharius: Four months ago, after the Great Triumph on Ullanor.

Of course soon after the AL throws in their lot with the Cabal.


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## Brother Dextus (Jan 30, 2013)

Just as an aside to this (Ive not got this far, only on Nemesis) - These battles where 'entire legions' fight must take literally YEARS to gather the troops. Can you imagine the command deck:

Sanguinius: "Are we ready to go yet?"
1st Cap: "No, were still waiting for XXX to turn up, he's still in the warp."
Sang: "Awwwwww, but I wanna go nooowww!"


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I agree. Years. Decades.

But apparently warp travel was a lot calmer back then, I think.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> It didn't really matter how many ships Sangy showed up with. [snip] The Alpha Legion set the pace of the campaign.


While that is technically true, in practice it isn't. Yes, the Alpha Legion were technically in charge of the pace but the amount of ships the BA sent absolutely impacted it. If the BA send two ships the AL are required to slow the pace to allow those ships to deal with everything they flush out. Conversely, with the numbers the BA sent the AL were both able and expected to flush out larger numbers. If the AL call for five years with a certain amount of support than increasing that support would reduce the time required (at least in the kind of campaign the BA are used to). Further, rightly or wrongly, the BA complain about their role in this campaign and are not a Legion renowned for their patience or their ability to hold the line. The longer the AL dick around the more likely it becomes that Sanguinus stops accepting the AL 'progress reports' and has his legion engage the orks head on. 


To the thread title: No one is likely to enjoy the prospect of fighting alongside the AL because, in all honesty, they won't be. The AL are insular to the point that their allies don't understand what they are doing, making effective teamwork impossible, and they are unorthodox to the point that their allies are unlikely to ever fight alongside them, making trust and brotherhood (something we see in every other scenario where two Legions fight alongside one another, even between the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers for christsake) impossible.

The AL take their unorthodoxy too far in this respect, making them unable to work alongside others effectively. That is their Legions biggest weakness (at least during the GC).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> If the BA send two ships the AL are required to slow the pace to allow those ships to deal with everything they flush out. Conversely, with the numbers the BA sent the AL were both able and expected to flush out larger numbers. If the AL call for five years with a certain amount of support than increasing that support would reduce the time required (at least in the kind of campaign the BA are used to).


This would be all true, but remember the context of the original post. The person I responded to proposed that the AL intended to drag out the campaign in order to distract the Blood Angels from the Heresy.

If that was such a case, then the AL finishing almost 5 times as fast as they originally hypothesized doesn't make much sense.

If the AL pushed their look too hard and the BL lost their cool and decided to join the battle, then so be it. That means that the AL bought as much time as they could.

Even then, I don't think Sangy would have allowed his men to lose their cool.

Remember, Sangy was a cooperative, understanding Primarch. He may have had words with his brother and the way he prosecutes a war, but I don't think Sangy would disregard orders from the commander leading the campaign.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

hailene said:


> This would be all true, but remember the context of the original post. The person I responded to proposed that the AL intended to drag out the campaign in order to distract the Blood Angels from the Heresy.
> 
> If that was such a case, then the AL finishing almost 5 times as fast as they originally hypothesized doesn't make much sense.
> 
> ...


Wait... you responded to me when you said the number of ships he showed up with didn't matter. I made the same point as MEQinc


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Wait... you responded to me when you said the number of ships he showed up with didn't matter. I made the same point as MEQinc


It doesn't matter unless the AL wanted it to matter.

If they wanted to stall, they could have unless one of two things happened: 1. their support force refused to obey orders and wait and charged into the asteroid field after the Orks or 2. their support force decided to leave.

Therefore, I do not believe that having the BA support the AL in this action was a deliberate choice by the AL to stall the BAs.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Did anyone else find the descriptions of the Red Angel interesting? That was describing how Sanguinius would look if he were to fall to chaos, correct? He would have looked like a terrifying entity.

A humanoid figure drenched in blood, his wings replaced with skeletal wings and where once were the plumes for feathers now were streams of blood trailing behind him as he flys.

It makes me think how all the other primarchs would have looked if they fell to chaos, such as Curze. However that is already partly described in other books, I do believe Curze would have fallen to Nurgle. Partly due to his descriptions of being corpse like, with unnatural toughness and endurance when facing the Lion.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> If they wanted to stall, they could have unless one of two things happened: 1. their support force refused to obey orders and wait and charged into the asteroid field after the Orks or 2. their support force decided to leave.


This is true. However if the BA are forced to make such an action, and long before they would be, there will be very serious questions asked about what the hell the AL are doing. Sanguinius expects the campaign to completed in one fifth of the original estimated time, if that doesn't happen he is going to demand to know why. And he isn't just going to talk to Alpharius about it. Even if reprimands/sanctions aren't brought into place the practices of the AL will still come under scrutiny and that is the anti-thesis of everything the AL stand for. 

All that being said, I doubt that this mission was designed to stall the BA simply because that doesn't seem to be necessary in any way. Not until Signus does it matter where the BA are.



Lux said:


> I do believe Curze would have fallen to Nurgle. Partly due to his descriptions of being corpse like, with unnatural toughness and endurance when facing the Lion.


Nurgle has nothing to offer Curze, and more to the point, the two do not line up ideologically. Nurgle is all about enduring, everlasting life and an end to pain. Curze doesn't really care about any of those things, except maybe an end to pain. Indeed his suicide is the anti-thesis of Nurgle, he dies for what he believes in as opposed to Mortarion (and most Nurgle worshipers) who abandon what they believe in in order to stay alive. 

If being tough and pale was all that was required to fall to Nurgle than I daresay Nurgle would have a *lot* more followers than he does.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> This is true. However if the BA are forced to make such an action, and long before they would be, there will be very serious questions asked about what the hell the AL are doing. Sanguinius expects the campaign to completed in one fifth of the original estimated time, if that doesn't happen he is going to demand to know why. And he isn't just going to talk to Alpharius about it. Even if reprimands/sanctions aren't brought into place the practices of the AL will still come under scrutiny and that is the anti-thesis of everything the AL stand for.
> 
> All that being said, I doubt that this mission was designed to stall the BA simply because that doesn't seem to be necessary in any way. Not until Signus does it matter where the BA are.
> 
> ...



Hmm, good points. It is just during their fight it described Curze as brimming with a unnatural power that radiated from him as a unholy light. Additionally his stamina, toughness, and strength were beyond what was normal, such as spinal being impaled and sliced, stabbed, etc. 

I was just thinking if there was any chaos god that would have claimed him it would have been Nurgle. Not out of fear of death, but rather due to this acceptance of death and that fact that Curze accepted everything decays and comes to nothing eventually.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> However if the BA are forced to make such an action, and long before they would be, there will be very serious questions asked about what the hell the AL are doing. Sanguinius expects the campaign to completed in one fifth of the original estimated time, if that doesn't happen he is going to demand to know why


I don't think Alpharius would have been cowed into speaking. I also don't believe Sangy would have forced the issue too much.

After all, war is war. Things don't always go according to plan. The AL could have cooked up any sort of information for the BA to stumble upon and make it look legitimate.



MEQinc said:


> All that being said, I doubt that this mission was designed to stall the BA simply because that doesn't seem to be necessary in any way. Not until Signus does it matter where the BA are.


A few possibilities with this. 1. They couldn't afford to have the BA drift into Segmentum
Solar. _Horus Heresy: Betrayal_ mentions that the Legions in Segmentum Solar could not be easily be manipulated by Horus due to their proximity to the Emperor and raising undue suspicion. 2. They needed the BA to gather significant forces in preparation for the BAs to be turned/ambushed at Signus Prime. Horus was on a tight schedule and he couldn't afford to wait the 5 or whatever years it'd take to reunite the entirety of the BA Legion. 3. Maybe they needed Sangy out of the way for the duration? In order for him not to discover the conspiracy forming?

Still, in the end, I agree that the AL probably weren't stalling the BA. As I said earlier, they could have done it for much longer without raising any eyebrows. Or at least not too many eyebrows too far.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> It is just during their fight it described Curze as brimming with a unnatural power that radiated from him as a unholy light.


I don't recall him being described in those terms. I recall his eyes burning fever bright, a description that suggests 'crazy' eyes to me. He is described as corpse like, but is often described this way seemingly because he is pale, very thin and evil.



> Additionally his stamina, toughness, and strength were beyond what was normal, such as spinal being impaled and sliced, stabbed, etc.


Beyond normal for most beings, beyond normal for a Primarch? Far harder to say. We have seen many Primarchs suffer similarly debilitating wounds without dying, and without the influence of Nurgle. And the Lion, or even his Marines IIRC, does not seem surprised by Night Haunter surviving them which leads me to believe that his toughness is abnormal here.



> Not out of fear of death, but rather due to this acceptance of death and that fact that Curze accepted everything decays and comes to nothing eventually.


Nurgle isn't about the acceptance of death, his emotion is desperation/despair. People turn to him desperate to survive and despairing of other options and he let's them, on his terms. Night Haunter has never really struck me as desperate or despairing. If any God were to have a shot at corrupting Night Haunter, it's Khorne. Night Haunter is clearly a very angry, hateful person so the door is open. Night Haunter managed to keep Khorne out with his focus, his will and his goal.

Anyway this is drifting off topic.



hailene said:


> I don't think Alpharius would have been cowed into speaking. I also don't believe Sangy would have forced the issue too much.


Sanguinius is Alpharius' brother and equal, he doesn't have to 'cow' him into speaking he just has to ask. Alpharius refusing to answer such questions would provoke even more suspicion. And as I said, the BA don't have to force the issue the simple fact that it is now an issue at all is a loss for the AL.



> 2. They needed the BA to gather significant forces in preparation for the BAs to be turned/ambushed at Signus Prime. Horus was on a tight schedule and he couldn't afford to wait the 5 or whatever years it'd take to reunite the entirety of the BA Legion.


While a fairly large number of BA did gather for this campaign most of the Legion, including several key officers, were not involved. The Legion seems to have gathered very quickly anyway, and was seemingly helped in doing so, so I don't think speed is the issue. Also, if gathering a large portion of the Legion was the goal would it not have made more sense to either a) ask for those numbers in the first place or b) just had the BA prosecute the campaign themselves? And finally, the schedule was orchestrated by Horus, and more importantly the Gods themselves, from the very beginning. If it was crucial to have the whole Legion assemble and it would take a very long time, they could've simply had the BA start assembling earlier, a fact that would've actually been hurt by the AL time-stalling operation.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Sanguinius is Alpharius' brother and equal, he doesn't have to 'cow' him into speaking he just has to ask. Alpharius refusing to answer such questions would provoke even more suspicion. And as I said, the BA don't have to force the issue the simple fact that it is now an issue at all is a loss for the AL.


You're right. They're equals. If AL says "it's all according to my plan, trust me" then Sangy can either take his word for it or leave. 

Sangy's honor wouldn't allow him to leave a fight unfinished and his genial personality wouldn't have him threatening Alpharius or otherwise forcing Alpharius to tell him what's really happening.



MEQinc said:


> While a fairly large number of BA did gather for this campaign most of the Legion, including several key officers, were not involved.


I don't recall it saying who was involved and who wasn't. Care to refresh my memory?



MEQinc said:


> The Legion seems to have gathered very quickly anyway, and was seemingly helped in doing so,


Were they? I read _Fear to Tread_ pretty quickly and I don't remember that. Cite?



MEQinc said:


> if gathering a large portion of the Legion was the goal would it not have made more sense to either a) ask for those numbers in the first place


Perhaps it was a bit of psychology on Alpharius's part? Ask for X amount of support telling them it will take 5 years to do it. Knowing Sangy, he would be unhappy with that length of time and overcommit to the campaign?



MEQinc said:


> b) just had the BA prosecute the campaign themselves?


That wouldn't work because Alpharius, theoretically, would need to occupy the BAs for so much time. If the BAs were running the campaign, the AL could not dictate the pace. They couldn't accelerate or decelerate the campaign as their scheduled required.



MEQinc said:


> And finally, the schedule was orchestrated by Horus, and more importantly the Gods themselves, from the very beginning. If it was crucial to have the whole Legion assemble and it would take a very long time, they could've simply had the BA start assembling earlier, a fact that would've actually been hurt by the AL time-stalling operation.


All very true. But remember, the AL "went" to the Sons of Horus first. Perhaps that was either a cover-up or Horus and Alpharius hatched the plan during that moment.

Also, regardless of what the Chaos Gods intended, they are 1. Fractured in their own desires and strategies and 2. Their mortal followers are likewise fractured and pursuing their own agendas.

The time-stalling of the AL wouldn't have hurt Horus's plans assuming Alpharius and Horus were communicating.

Remember, in the end, I still don't believe that the AL purposely stalled the BA. I don't see any real reason why the AL felt the need to accelerate their campaign unless they were honestly trying to finish it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> You're right. They're equals. If AL says "it's all according to my plan, trust me" then Sangy can either take his word for it or leave.


Alpharius: It's all going according to plan, trust me.
Sanguinius: What plan?
Alpharius: My plan.
Sanguinius: Right... and that plan is?
Alpharius: Secret.
Sanguinius: Why?
Alpharius: Because.
Sanguinius: wtf?

Sanguinius has every right to know what is going on during this crusade, as it involves his men. There is simply no way a fuck up by the Alpha Legion, ie. anything that causes the BA to go off-script, is not going to be questioned by Sanguinius and there is no way that Alpharius can deflect these questions without generating further questions.

And again: The fact that the AL have draw any kind of attention whatsoever to the possibility of ulterior motives of any kind is *bad*, and not something they would do.



> genial personality wouldn't have him threatening Alpharius or otherwise forcing Alpharius to tell him what's really happening.


I'm not really sure Sanguinius can be said to have a 'genial' personality, particularly where the lives of his sons are concerned. If Alpharius threatened their safety (such as by intentionally screwing around with this campaigns timelines) than I could easily see Sanguinius forcing a confrontation.



> I don't recall it saying who was involved and who wasn't. Care to refresh my memory?


Azkellon (or however that's spelt) is specifically mentioned as being elsewhere for one. Others would doubtless be as well.



> Were they? I read _Fear to Tread_ pretty quickly and I don't remember that. Cite?


No specific timeline is given, so I don't have a citation it was just the general impression I got. None of the BA seem particularly impatient with the process (which they were after 13 months with the AL), no one mentions somewhere else they could be, no one suggests getting started and letting the others catch up, and the WB and SW both come very close to missing the window to rendezvous. In general everybody just seems to get together remarkably quickly.



> Perhaps it was a bit of psychology on Alpharius's part? Ask for X amount of support telling them it will take 5 years to do it. Knowing Sangy, he would be unhappy with that length of time and overcommit to the campaign?


Quite possible, making Sanguinius think it was his idea. However even then he could've asked for the final amount saying five years and then Sanguinius would've multiplied that force to bring down the timeline. 



> That wouldn't work because Alpharius, theoretically, would need to occupy the BAs for so much time. If the BAs were running the campaign, the AL could not dictate the pace. They couldn't accelerate or decelerate the campaign as their scheduled required.


What about Chondax (which is practically the same scenario)? The AL despite playing no official part in that campaign manage to keep the White Scars occupied for an extended period of time, far longer than they would've if the orks had been left to their own devices. The AL have shown time and time again that they do their best work when no one knows they're there.



> Also, regardless of what the Chaos Gods intended, they are 1. Fractured in their own desires and strategies and 2. Their mortal followers are likewise fractured and pursuing their own agendas.


While this is generally quite true, it's not really that accurate during the orchestration of the Heresy. Look at the amount of time and effort that went into turning the SW and TS against one another, or corrupting Lorgar, or even the power at play in Signus. The game was afoot for the Gods before the players were ever even born. To suggest that they'd be unable to get the BA to accelerate their timeline by a few months is a pretty big stretch.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Alpharius: It's all going according to plan, trust me.
> Sanguinius: What plan?
> Alpharius: My plan.
> Sanguinius: Right... and that plan is?
> ...


 That's how it rolled out. Let me drag the quote out.

"No one knew what the Alpha Legion had done to make the orks run. Kano was adjutant to Captain Raldoron, and so often in a position to hear fragments of the information that passed though the highest levels of the Blood Angels command structure, but even he knew little. All that was certain was that the Alpha Legion had gone dark, only rising to send regular communiqués out to the blockade fleet that contained little more than a message to ‘maintain the line’. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, scratch my previous idea that the AL weren't stalling the BA. I'm 99% sure that they were. Some facts:

1. The BA went immediately from the Kayvas Belt to Signus Prime.
2. Istvaan was in rebellion and Horus was gathering his four Legions to strike it BEFORE they even left the Kayvas Belt.

An interesting quote I dug up from the book while skimming through it. This takes place in the aftermath of the Kayvas Belt campaign:

"Well, captain,’ she replied. ‘We are at optimal fighting strength. The campaign’s casualties have been addressed. I think we all agree that we are ready to move on to the next deployment.’
‘And not so much as a thank you from the Alpha Legion,’ Furio said mildly. ‘*It’s like they never needed us at all…*’"

Off-handed comment by one of the BA captains, but awfully interesting, eh?
~~~~~

Now that we're aware of the time of the events, I think it's pretty safe to say that the AL deliberately gathered and stalled the BA.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm still not buying it I'm afraid. Horus states that Alpharius had been planning the Kayvas campaign for a long time, seemingly implying before Horus was even Warmaster, with him now sending an envoy to try and convince the 'new Warmaster' to take part in it. Even then when presenting it to the Luna Wolves, Alpharius predicts it will take five years. 

Alpharius was approached by the Cabal, after Horus became Warmaster and I would wager that with the events of Murder happening relatively soon after Horus was elevated to Warmaster, along with the time it would take an envoy to find and reach Horus, leads me to believe pretty confidently that this happened before Alpharius encountered the Cabal. Even if this wasn't so(and I doubt that), why would he first ask Horus? He's not even almost been corrupted by this point, so wouldn't have then schemed with him to send the Angel instead.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm still not buying it I'm afraid. Horus states that Alpharius had been planning the Kayvas campaign for a long time, seemingly implying before Horus was even Warmaster


I don't think so. Alpharius asked Horus after Murder AND the war with the Interex. Murder was after Sixty-Three-Nineteen which itself occurred 1 years after Horus became Warmaster. The Murder campaign itself took around 6 months. The destruction of the Interex would probably take a while. In _Horus Rising_ we're given the impression that their ships are impressive and we see first hand the power of their ground troops. It was probably at least 2 years after Horus became Warmaster. Maybe more, depending on how long the war with the Interex took.



Angel of Blood said:


> Even then when presenting it to the Luna Wolves, Alpharius predicts it will take five years.


The book doesn't say Alpharius expects the campaign to take 5 years with the Luna Wolves. The text implies that with the BA's assistance it would take five years.

"In the end, it was the Blood Angels who agreed to assist their cousins in the XX Legion, with Sanguinius himself marshalling a sizable intervention to support the ships of the 88th Expeditionary Fleet. The mission, Alpharius said, would be five years in execution. The Angel rejected that statement and promised it would be over in one, committing vessels from every active Blood Angels expedition to the cause."



Angel of Blood said:


> Horus became Warmaster and I would wager that with the events of Murder happening relatively soon after Horus was elevated to Warmaster, along with the


The events with the Cabal occurred about 4 months after Horus became Warmaster. The Belt happened around 2, maybe 2 1/2 years after Horus became Warmaster.



Angel of Blood said:


> why would he first ask Horus? He's not even almost been corrupted by this point, so wouldn't have then schemed with him to send the Angel instead.


I could imagine something along these lines:

AL wants to gather a significant portion of the BA legion. Instead of asking the BA themselves, they petition the Sons of Horus knowing that they'd be unwilling or unable to commit to the Belt. Sangy may have felt honor bound one way or another since he was indirectly involved with the whole Interex debacle by means of the war on Murder. Because the Sons of Horus were in no position to help, the BAs put it upon themselves to help the AL in the Sons of Horus's stead. For honor's sake, Sangy committed heavily to the war.

Is this backed by fact? Not directly, no, but it's a reasonable idea, I think.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't think so. Alpharius asked Horus after Murder AND the war with the Interex. Murder was after Sixty-Three-Nineteen which itself occurred 1 years after Horus became Warmaster. The Murder campaign itself took around 6 months. The destruction of the Interex would probably take a while. In _Horus Rising_ we're given the impression that their ships are impressive and we see first hand the power of their ground troops. It was probably at least 2 years after Horus became Warmaster. Maybe more, depending on how long the war with the Interex took.


Incorrect actually. Trajus Boniface, the Alpha Legion envoy arrived _during_ the six month campaign on Murder, it's not stated when, but it could have been anywhere from the beginning to the end. Pg. 369 _Horus Rising_. They had met the Interex, but had not fought them yet or even left Murder.




hailene said:


> The book doesn't say Alpharius expects the campaign to take 5 years with the Luna Wolves. The text implies that with the BA's assistance it would take five years.


It does in _Horus Rising_, pg.370 this time. 
"Horus studied the plans in private. The Kayvas Belt offensive was a projected five-year operation, and required ten times the manpower the Warmaster could currently muster"
I included the whole paragraph for the last sentence, but more on that below. But as you can see, he outlines the campaign as taking five years, Luna Wolves or Blood Angels seemingly.




hailene said:


> The events with the Cabal occurred about 4 months after Horus became Warmaster. The Belt happened around 2, maybe 2 1/2 years after Horus became Warmaster.


Do you have a quote from _Legion_ for the four months? I've had a brief skim though it, but kind find anywhere that suggests when it took place, other than that Horus was already Warmaster. Though again, my search was rather brief.





hailene said:


> I could imagine something along these lines:
> 
> AL wants to gather a significant portion of the BA legion. Instead of asking the BA themselves, they petition the Sons of Horus knowing that they'd be unwilling or unable to commit to the Belt. Sangy may have felt honor bound one way or another since he was indirectly involved with the whole Interex debacle by means of the war on Murder. Because the Sons of Horus were in no position to help, the BAs put it upon themselves to help the AL in the Sons of Horus's stead. For honor's sake, Sangy committed heavily to the war.
> 
> Is this backed by fact? Not directly, no, but it's a reasonable idea, I think.


It's reasonable, and indeed it says in my above quote that he couldn't muster the manpower. But there are far too many factors that could go wrong. Alpharius would have to assume Horus wouldn't be willing to muster his manpower, he has to assume that Sanguinius would volunteer his Legion in the Warmasters stead, he might not have even known Sanguinius would initially be there seeing as he wasn't there at the start of the Murder campaign, he has to also assume that Horus wouldn't have ordered another Legion to aid Alpharius, he has to assume that Horus wouldn't have deemed the Kayvas Belt campaign to be a waste or resources and ordered Alpharius and his Legion to another campaign. That is far, far, far too many assumptions for the Alpha Legion Primarchs. Everything we know about the XX Legion Primarchs is that they don't act unless they are certain the events will play out how they want them to, they don't work of assumptions and hopes.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Incorrect actually. Trajus Boniface, the Alpha Legion envoy arrived during the six month campaign on Murder, it's not stated when, but it could have been anywhere from the beginning to the end. Pg. 369 Horus Rising. They had met the Interex, but had not fought them yet or even left Murder.


You are correct. The quote in _Fear to Tread_ made it sound like it occurred after the Interex issue. I'll post it here so I don't look crazy.

"The Alpha Legion had tracked them to their lair and petitioned Horus for the reinforcements required to prosecute their plan of annihilation, but after the war at the world called Murder and the disastrous engagement with the civilisation known as the Interex, the Luna Wolves had been reluctant to commit ships to Alpharius’s campaign."

But the quotation in _Horus Rising_ does make it clear that the AL had planned it well ahead of time. Probably soon after Ullanor, if not before.



Angel of Blood said:


> Do you have a quote from Legion for the four months? /quote]
> 
> No problem. I actually quoted it earlier in the thread, let me dig it up.
> 
> ...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Either the Alpha Legion seriously screwed up both in their spying, planning, and execution, or they cooked up most, if not all, the facts.


Perhaps after they "switched" allegiances they wanted loyalist marines there to protect them. After all if they weren't there they probably would have been massacred.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> After all if they weren't there they probably would have been massacred.


Not sure about that. Furio felt that they (the Blood Angels) weren't needed to win the fight.

Unless you're saying the BAs were protecting them from something else?


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Alpha legion fan boys are the worst. Just saying.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> Alpha legion fan boys are the worst. Just saying.


I'm a staunch Loyalist myself . For the Emperor!


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

CJay said:


> Alpha legion fan boys are the worst. Just saying.


Worlds eaters for me.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

World Eaters and Raven Guard ftw.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

CJay said:


> Alpha legion fan boys are the worst. Just saying.





hailene said:


> I'm a staunch Loyalist myself . For the Emperor!


Where as despite being a loyalist, I'm quite an Alpha Legion fan, yet I'm the one arguing against this. Sort of throws that generalisation out the window.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Anyway, back to the original topic: Did anyone Legion like working with the AL? Probably, yes. Horus praised Alpharius for his unusual strategies. The Luna Wolves, by and large, followed Horus's lead. I think it's safe to say that at least one Legion enjoyed working with the AL.

Although the _Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal_ does state that the Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion are "distrusted allies", so maybe not?

It does put the Emperor's Children, White Scars, Thousand Sons, and Salamanders as "fellow warriors". The level of alliance the chart lists goes from, best to worst, Sworn Brothers, Fellow Warriors, Distrusted Allies, By the Emperor's (or Warmaster's) Command.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> Anyway, back to the original topic: Did anyone Legion like working with the AL? Probably, yes. Horus praised Alpharius for his unusual strategies. The Luna Wolves, by and large, followed Horus's lead. I think it's safe to say that at least one Legion enjoyed working with the AL.
> 
> Although the _Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal_ does state that the Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion are "distrusted allies", so maybe not?
> 
> It does put the Emperor's Children, White Scars, Thousand Sons, and Salamanders as "fellow warriors". The level of alliance the chart lists goes from, best to worst, Sworn Brothers, Fellow Warriors, Distrusted Allies, By the Emperor's (or Warmaster's) Command.


I'm not really a fan of the allies chart. I don't have the book(even for the fluff, far too much if you don't play TT), but when I read it, I can remember the chart not being all that accurate given what we know of some legions and how they got on.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm not really a fan of the allies chart. I don't have the book(even for the fluff, far too much if you don't play TT), but when I read it, I can remember the chart not being all that accurate given what we know of some legions and how they got on.


Yeah, there are some...interesting choices. I don't know if it was for game balance or potential future stories, but some relationships don't make too much sense. On a whole they're mostly solid, from what I've seen.

There's really a ton of information in it. I'd suggest getting your hands on it one way or another. Some stuff they reitterate what we know, others they changed. Some biggies are solid numbers dropped on Isstvaan and for the four first Traitor Legions as a whole. Mortarion was also raised on a xeno controlled world under a xeno foster-father.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> Yeah, there are some...interesting choices. I don't know if it was for game balance or potential future stories, but some relationships don't make too much sense. On a whole they're mostly solid, from what I've seen.
> 
> There's really a ton of information in it. I'd suggest getting your hands on it one way or another. Some stuff they reitterate what we know, others they changed. Some biggies are solid numbers dropped on Isstvaan and for the four first Traitor Legions as a whole. Mortarion was also raised on a xeno controlled world under a xeno foster-father.


I've read all of it that I needed to know, but there's not a hope in hell that I'm buying it for that amount of money. I'll just...find a way... to get a temp copy should I need any gen from it.


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