# Challenge Me!!!



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Now I have your attention I decided to set up this thread to try to avoid the notion that any one single unit in any codex is crap I wish to challenge heresy members to give me a unit they think is of no worth and I shall think of a way to make it useful in some way.

Literally give me ANY unit that can be used in the current game and I shall see what I can do.

Units I have detailed:

Servitors
Chaos Spawn
Arco-Flagellants for GK's
Stealth Suits
Wraithguard
Beasts of Nurgle
Vespid Stingwings
Tyranid Shrikes
Pyrovores


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Servtors from C:SM (without a techmarine)


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Chaos spawn.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

ANY unit you say? Hm... Arco-Flagelants... for GK.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Well they cannot be taken but here goes:

Servitors.

Looking at servitors I can see why many would be shied from them. Unless accompanied by a techmarine they freezse out half the time, have rather mediocre stats for a marine codex and armed with servo arms. Which strike at I1.

Well also looking at them I also notice from the onset that they are very cheap for their points. When the basic space marine scout has similar stats and worse weapons to boot 10 points or even 15 seem like a good deal to me to get a cheap power fist. Even if it strikes at S6.

So I believe that the preferred method to use Space Marine Servitors is to hammer them at slow units. Anything which is made from powerfists or thunder hammers (Like Space Marine TH/SS termies) would really suffer against them. They are a lot cheaper than the termies and to boot have a decent chance of doing some damage to them before they go down. However I do not think that they should have any ranged weapons at all. Especially since they do not have a decent BS value to take advantage of them for the points cost. 

In brief they do have their uses. More as a speedbump unit you can happily sacrifice in front of enemy elites that are slow in combat without worrying too much when they die. Addmittandly there is not much that can be done about the mindlock rule but since you cannot take them without a techmarine then this seems like a moot point.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

It's pretty obvious that any unit in any army can be used for _something_ - nobody would argue that. What it comes down to though is if other units can't do a better job of it.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

I can easily answer the spawn question. Expandable units that absorb enemy fire like war hounds. 3 wounds isn't to be Sniffed at especially with the 2d6X2 assault range can worry Tau as it takes a lot of their mid strength shots to take one down. Also great for distracting Nids because they give you a chance to counter charge or create a 'death zone' were they get shot to he'll like catachans make for anti-Nids. If I know the stats I can assist Stephen in this.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Not true a 6 man tau fire warrior squad within rapid fire range on average will kill a chaos spawn.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Lets move on to Spawn. I expected them little buggers to appear at one point.

First off I think that despite the total lack of an armour save Spawn are quite decent. For 40 points they get a reasonable T5, S5, 3 wounds and get the option as beasts to not only have a potential 12 inch assault range but they are entitled to the Fleet USR. A potential 24 inch charge range if the dice favour you.

Next we should also be aware that Spawn do not take up any slot in the FOC at all. This means that although they cannot capture obectives they can fill out an army without restricting the other choices you can take from that section. I prefer raptors but that is just me.

As for uses I say that since Spawn are not that big and have a reputation for being crap that there are quite a few opponents that wouls ignore tham and target other stuff. Since Span have a reasonable charge range (even if it is random) and their durability in CC means that Spawn are excellant distractions and tying down units. Against stuff like SM Devastators and Dark Reapers is where they could excell. They are a fair points trade off since such squads are more expensive and because of the high T value they will be tied up for a couple of turns sparing the rest of your force. In fact there are quite a few S3 enemies I believe would actually lose to such a unit in CC. Not to mention that on an opponents back line there are also tasty vulnerable units that could be destroyed. Eldar farseers spring to mind at the top of my head as well as tanks. Yes since tanks get hit on the rear armour in CC and a decent S5 and getting a reasonable number of attacks mean a Spawn could actually damage the opponents tank because he overlooked it for something like your LR. Imagine a guard or a Tau player who would be so pissed off if his Leman Russ or Hammerhead gets destroyed by a Spawn. That is embarrasing. Even if it fails I doubt an opponent will risk it again so that means less fire directed at your more valuable units.

In addition because they ahve T5 they are also useful, like servitors, at tying up a unit that relies on small numbers of high S attacks like normal powerfists and Thunder hammers. They can last a while meaning you can muster your forces elsewhere for a small reprieve and concentrate on other things.

So quite a few uses for a small amount of points then.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

OK. Next request was for Arco-Flagellants.

Arco-Flagellants

I do wonder when you said they were not good what recreational drugs you may have been smoking since Arcos are great!

For a cheap points cost they come with a decent weapon skill, T4 (better than most henchmen) and a lot of S5 attacks. They also have FNP which is always nice and have a decent armour save for cost. However they fall down on no power weapon options, no invulnerable save and a low I.

I like to think of these guys as more durable, but slower Striking Scorpions. You need to use these guys against hordes and lots of poor save enemies such as a nice big unit of hormagaunts or ork boyz. I also find that if they are paired with a Librarian who has either the Quicksilver, Might of Titan and Hammerhand powers then these can all be activated and suddenly the Arcos are now S7, roll 2d6 against vehicles and more importantly strike at I10. They will hurt most targets and if speed is an issue then the accompanying libby can share a transport like a SR. However if doing so I suggest swapping out the Hammerhand power for Shrouding since Stealth on a flat out moving SR is nothing to sniff about.

In short use them on lots of low armoured units and for the extra quick slap a Librarian on them.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Name something stealth suits can do that crisis suits can't for better and or cheaper.

also find a use for wraithguard and the beast of nurgle.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Since I started asking for Tau advice, there's been a chorus of "don't buy vespids!!!"

I wouldn't anyway, because they are fuck ugly, but is there anyway to justify them?


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Okay okay, maybe the flagellants are good. But here's a unit you can't POSSIBLY claim to be useful: Hive Guard.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Your kidding right? Hive guard are utterly fantastic.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> Your kidding right? Hive guard are utterly fantastic.


Oh did I say Hive Guard? I meant Tyrant Guard. Tyrant Guard are utterly terrible.:ireful2:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

DestroyerHive said:


> Oh did I say Hive Guard? I meant Tyrant Guard. Tyrant Guard are utterly terrible.


Er, no they're not. They keep the expensive Hive Tyrant alive for a considerable amount of time and can take Lash Whips to help the Tyrant do its damage.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I know - I'm just trying to provoke you :laugh:. I'll leave now.:so_happy:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

DestroyerHive said:


> I know - I'm just trying to provoke you :laugh:. I'll leave now.:so_happy:


lol, I've been trolled. 8/10 sir.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Nah 5/10 from me I knew he was trolling as soon as he started.... I just you know went along with it......:wink:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> Nah 5/10 from me I knew he was trolling as soon as he started.... I just you know went along with it......:wink:


Naw I won't even pretend. I'm used to, erm... "interesting" opinions from people here on Heresy that almost defy belief, I thought this was one of them. I stand by my 8/10.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> Name something stealth suits can do that crisis suits can't for better and or cheaper.


This is the last one I shall do for now. I need sleep.

Well if we are going by the book I shall suggest that from the onset that Stealth Suit teams are best as infantry shredders. Using a fusion blaster is asking for trouble.

Comparing the standard Stealth Suit with a Crisis Suit with Burst Cannon (Unfair I know because the Crisis suit HAS to take more stuff but this further drives the points cost). The Crisis suit comes with an extra pip on strength and toughness and packs an extra wound. However he does not have the ability to infiltrate. This is only 2 points more. However as stated a Crisis suit has to take more stuff. Lets assume that he takes a missile pod and a multi-tracker (better for infantry shredding) or better yet another burst cannon and a targeting array. This drives his cost to 50 points and 47 points respectively and makes him nearly the price of 2 Stealth Suits. However I am missing the main point.

I believe that to use Stealth Suits effectively one must be able to be good at guessing ranges. This is because where the Stealth Suit can be more survivable than the crisis suit is when he uses his jetpack to jump to JUST within 18 inches of the target, let rip with the cannon (ideally upgraded with a targeting array) and then jump back the full distance. Then the stealth field generator, combined with a good fire discipline to wipe out the Stealth Suits target unit, can allow the Stealth team to survive the onslught of the other army. Crisis suits cannot claim this benefit and can find a failed cover save from a krak missile can spell death for a member. Admmitedly Stealth Suits suffer the same problem but because of the Stealth Field they are less likely to be targetted in the first place.

Also Stealth Suits also do not attract as much attention from the battle onset because they have a bad reputation. Sadly they will get slaughtered when the enemy close in but since nearly every Tau unit sucks in CC then this is not really unexpected.

Also I find that the infiltrate skill is not really great for these guys. Letting them roam ahead as lone wolves of the army is a colossaly bad idea since they are now seperated from the host making them easier to pick off. As does deep striking them. However I am not ruling out the possibility of outflank simply because this means they can pop from un unexpected angle and help decimate an infantry unit that thought itself safe like those heavy weapons troopers sitting on the home objective and with S5 guns can even have a cheeky poop at rear tank armour.

In short there is a lot they can do better than Crisis suit when tackling light infantry and at a cheaper price to boot.

I will answer your other units soon. I myself use Wraithguard so I can provide something here.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I think I've got one. Drop Pods.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Begins with a D, and ends with rop Pod Assault.

Tyranid Shrikes. ID'able shit in combat, expensive, mindless flying combat tarpits incapable of tarpitting a housefly.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Have you seen the house fly's in the year 40,000?









Edit:the crisis suit does have the same wounds as 2 stealth suits and on average will kill more infantry than the 2 stealth suits.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> Edit:the crisis suit does have the same wounds as 2 stealth suits and on average will kill more infantry than the 2 stealth suits.


I am sorry but that really does not make sense since the suits have the same gun and the same BS value.

Moving on.

Wraithguard

Wraithguard are 35 points apiece and come with a 3+ armour save (very good for Eldar), a good S5 and T6 and also have the benefit of being fearless and packing a really cool gun. However they are slow (no fleet, again rare for an Eldar), have no invulnerable save and only have basic WS, I and A values. Unless accompanied by a nearby psyker they also have a 1/6 chance of standing still and doing nothing for a turn.

Therefore going by this I believe that Wraithguard have quite a lot of potential but need to release it in the right areas such as using their rather nice guns. I suggest that they should always be accompanied by a warlock or spiritseer who has the conceal power. This gives them a nice power that means they can claim a save from whatever weapon is used against them (bar flamestorm cannons). The next thing is that their choice of target needs to be worthwhile to justify their points cost. The wraithcannon is great because the ability to wound any creature, regardless of toughness, on a 2+ with an AP2 shot is great. Especially since the Wraithguard have a decent BS4 value. Going by this they need to either hunt expensive, well armoured targets such as terminators, Tyranid MC's, wraithlords etc. In addition one cannot rule out that they can auto pen vehicles 1/3 time regardless of armour value and on normal targets a roll of 6 to wound inflicts instant death. Not bad when you roll that magic 6 to wound against targets like that annoying Cronos giving pain tokens to the rest of the DE or even Mephiston who would normally make mincemeat of your guys.

I am aware however that the main problems with Wraithguard seem to be slowness to which I suggest advance carefully in cover and obviously run into you are in range and that the other problem is that having attaked their target and destroyed it then another unit catches them and becomes heavily bogged down. To this I suggest that if this happens all the time then you need to play Eldar better. Eldar are all about each unit acting as a puzzle piece, none being able to last long ithout others to support it. Therefore if you manage a co-ordinated strike at the same time, say to your opponents units on his right flank that the Wraithguard attack then you should find that you have less problems. Read anything Eldar and you can realise that no unit ever operates alone because they just cannot hack it.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Pyrovores.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

every unit can be used 4 something, even if its just to give cover to other things or a meat sheild assult screen. still i have a challange: 
How to use pyrovores effectivally

Edit: Woops didnt look at the last post sorry about that.


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

easy enough, Gun Drone Squadron

Besides the "gives cover saves" and "could cause pinning" what the hell else could they be used for?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Just checking that the list to do includes:

Beasts of Nurgle
Vespid Stingwings
Tyranid Shrikes
Pyrovores (effectively)
Tau Gun Drone Squadrons

I will do these just give me time since real life gets in the way.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Ah well fuck it.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

You gave the crisis suit a missile pod coupled with the multi-tracker and burst cannon the crisis suit should kill more than 2 stealth suits.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

I think beasts of nurgle are quite useful, T5, 5++, 2W, fnp, ds in, with 3-4 poisoned attacks on ave, ds them near the opponent and tie up an enermy squad or even kill not so melee killy squads, i think they are far from the worst units in the daemon's codex. 

Furies and the masque in my view are a lot worse than the beasts of nurgle.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> You gave the crisis suit a missile pod coupled with the multi-tracker and burst cannon the crisis suit should kill more than 2 stealth suits.


Actually he would killroughly the same amount of GEQ or less. Against armours of 4+ or better you could argue that yes but the Stealth Suits as explained can survive return fire better when used properly.

Back on topic.

Beasts of Nurgle

Found within the Elites section of the Daemons Codex these critters cost 5 points more than the seemingly more effective Fiends and are equal in points to Flamers.

For the basic price tag you get a model with decent S and good T values as well as a pair of wounds. The other stats are also average apart from I which is a lower 2. It has no armour save but comes with a 5++ save in addition to FNP. This can be quite survivable as well as being a daemon means it is fearless and has EW. Crucially it has D6 random attacks (rolled every turn it is in assault) that are poisoned. These are crucial as explained later. Sadly where the Beasts struggle most is that they are elite infantry that come with the Slow and Purposeful rule which makes them slow.

However all is not doom and gloom. With a decent number of Beasts you stand a chance of rolling for more attacks even if a low number is rolled. Because these attacks are poisoned they work against any toughness but gain re-rolls against T4 or less (which most enemies have). I believe collecting this evidence that Beasts can become very deadly when used in an exclusive Nurgle list. Because of there durability they make the perfect bodyguards to Epidemius and their decent CC prowess means they can kill foes. However when paired with Ku'Gath then you can skyrocket up the board in terms of the tally special rule of Epidemius. When reaching the magic number 10 kills all followers of Nurgle (this includes the beasts) gain the awesome Noxious Touch rule. This means that the Beasts now get 2+ poisoned attacks in CC (ouch!) that also gain reroll benefits against T4 or less (More ouchies!). Even better is when said tally grows ever higher and now the beasts now can have 3+ save for FNP and a little more and their 2+ poisoned attacks now ignore armour! Scary stuff right there!

As for movement problems bear in mind that as daemons they deep strike so they can be close to the enemy as well as remembering to spread them out so they can receive less damage from blast weapons. Also bear in mind that Ku'Gath should be thrown in first so that less attention is garnered towards Epidemius and his bodyguards.

I shall add the Masque and Furies to my list!


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I guess its safe to say your glass is half full! Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Back on topic, a lot of these units that you've been challenged with, are usually paired up with a very useful units to make up their effectiveness, but pairing up a good unit with another good unit would seem like better spent points.
Its good to see some light being shed on units that are often scoffed at or completely ignored. Perhaps some units weren't meant be giants of the tabletop, are merely for the fun of having more unique choices available.

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Next unit on my whistlestop tour is Vespid Stingwings!

Vespid Stingwings

Hailing from the Fast Attack section from the Tau codex these weird alien flying men cost 16 points apiece basic (ignore the communion helm for now). These 6 extra points on top of a Fire Warrior give you better WS, T, I and a better gun. However you come off with worse LD and worse armour.

Now the main point I think about these guys is that they struggle to provide a place where they can be applied to an army. Therefore I come up with an overlooked suggestion, hunters and polishers.

No polishing is nothing to do with making other units shinier but is a term I use for when (this is especially applicable to Tau) after a successful shooting phase where you end up having done some serious damage but end up with a couple of annoying survivors left. This is where I believe the Vespid can excell at. Having an average BS, a decent S5 gun with a nice AP3 a unit of 6 Vespid can easily track down lone squads of leftovers and deliver the final blow to them. At only a cost of little more than 100 points to boot it can really save the Tau's bacon every once in a while. 

In addition the great speed these guys can have (being jump infantry with fleet of wing) they can hotfoot it to the other side of the table if you fancy them being more independant and going out to hunt targets. As an aside because these creatures have a nice T4 value this means that they can really hold their own against units that have an overall S3 (like nearly every Eldar unit, some Tau units and lots of Guard) will struggle to wound them whist the Stingwings strike first against such units (and at the same time as aspect warriors) means that a few kills from the charge and weathering the return blows mean that they can win on combat resolution and cause the enemy to flee and get run down by the superior initiative of the Stingwings.

So it seems that they do have a functional use in a Tau cadre whilst admittidly the Pathfinders are also great choices but you shouldnever really rule out a 100 point unit that can stop unit remnants charging a fragile Tau battleline and at the same time allow the said fire warrior units to fire lots of shots at the bigger enemy units that deserve their attention more.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

World Eater said:


> Hail,
> 
> I guess its safe to say your glass is half full! Not that there's anything wrong with that!
> Back on topic, a lot of these units that you've been challenged with, are usually paired up with a very useful units to make up their effectiveness, but pairing up a good unit with another good unit would seem like better spent points.
> ...


I se what you are saying. Firstly yes I am very much a positive person and it pisses me off no end when certain units are ruled out because some person thinks they are crap. Look at the person who thought Arco-Flagellants are crap when really when used right they can be pretty badass.

As for pairing units up that is what Warhammer should really be about. There really should not be any one units that has the cababilities to run through armies without any skill. In real life units do support each other as they complete objectives and complement each other with their skills. Eldar do this very well aseach unit is specialised into one particular role. It would make sense to pair good units with other good units but some are just better to work together rather than just pairing good units. Look at techmarines. They are hardly chosen because they are too slow in combat. However pair one with some Vanguard without jump packs in a transport with a few power weapons and the techmarine can assist them by supplying a large number of powerfist attacks. 

Your final point I see and agree that some units are not meant to be the best. What I am trying to do is to open he minds of people to take something unexpected which can throw the current system off the current trends. I lost to a Necron player recently. I used a meched marine army that would normally do very well in the meta game. I lost though because the other guy took over 60 Necron warriors with a pair of resorb lords and a Tomb Spyder. My lascannons against this horde had very little effect as they were able to shrug off most of the shots. It was also hard to run them down in CC because even a hoard of 20 warriors can inflict wounds that get through.

If tactics were used above lists that slap the best units in the game together then the game would be more varied and online lists around the world would be filled with less people saying tht unit X is never applicable if you want a winning army.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Would you also do weapons as well? If so, I'm curious as to TL deathspitters, as opposed to TL devourers on Monstrous Creatures. I just never see the need for these. (Not trolling this time)


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

DestroyerHive said:


> Would you also do weapons as well? If so, I'm curious as to TL deathspitters, as opposed to TL devourers on Monstrous Creatures. I just never see the need for these. (Not trolling this time)


Sure. Why not? How hard can it be? (Famous last words)


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

Umm, if you go weapon options as well i think your list will snowball quite quickly, i can think of 2 more challanges in the nids codex for 1 entry alone off the top of my head...


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

pyrovores
Wraiths (may not be to hard, wouldve said tomb spidyrs but that's too easy for you)
ummm.... 
imperial storm troopers with shotguns (SoB) (I think I might have you here


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Wraiths r hard cause for that many points its hell especially as they have no PW's but you could use the againts GK as thay _all_ carry the dreaded nemisis force weapons! Quick movement is also epic againts tau as being able to pass through any terrain helps you get into assaults quicker, disrupting their gun line meaning less of your men die to their guns as you cant fire out of melee


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Tyranid Shrikes

It seems that Tyranid Shrikes are EXACTLY THE SAME for normal Warrios except they cost 5 points more and have wings. However they come off with a worse armour save. 

Where I think Shrikes come off so bad is due to their fragility issues, especially weakness to the ever spammable missile launcher which causes ID. However Shrikes to do one thing very well that they are almost exclusive to it, fast acting synapse.

I am sure a lot of Tyranid players will know that their units are capable of being very fast. Sometimes it is so that the faster units such as Hormagaunts and Gargoyles and not to mention Harpies are capable of finding themselves outside of that magic synapse range. This is bad news since said units are more likely to run away in combat and you certainly have less control over their actions. However Shrikes are, I believe, the cheaper option of having some synapse about the board that can cause some damage whilst ensuring all of the swarm is able to co-operate as you see fit (The other options would be a burrowing Trygon Prime which is expensive or an equally expensive winged Hive Tyrant). Shrikes do come with some nasty options but the big benefit of having wings not only means that the entire swarm can be covered with synapse but that they have the advantage, due to having a good speed of being able to pick their fights as they see fit. As an example a normal warrior brood may have no option but to charge an assault squad woth a power fist or otherwise they risk a turn standing in the open being shot at. Shrikes on the other hand could leap over said unit and instead attack the softer, squishier scouts behind that assault squad whils the more expendable unit covers the nasty assault squad. However the pay off is fragility and you will find it takes more finesse to use Shrikes and a suitable fight for them. However good care will see shrikes last and keep the swarm under control.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> I can easily answer the spawn question. Expandable units that absorb enemy fire like war hounds. 3 wounds isn't to be Sniffed at especially with the 2d6X2 assault range can worry Tau as it takes a lot of their mid strength shots to take one down. Also great for distracting Nids because they give you a chance to counter charge or create a 'death zone' were they get shot to he'll like catachans make for anti-Nids. If I know the stats I can assist Stephen in this.


OK, this is a tad incorrect. they cost 40 pts a piece, and they move as though through difficult terrain, ie 2d6 and pick the highest, so at most its 2d6 assault range... not ideal, plus no armor saves and I6 makes even gaunts shred them.


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

Daemonhosts. What the heck do I do with them?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I can honestly mean to say I didn't mean Shrikes. I meant to say Sky Slasher Swarms. My bad - I love Shrikes, I run 2 units of 5 to run alongside my 2 Flyrants in my nid list.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I can honestly mean to say I didn't mean Shrikes. I meant to say Sky Slasher Swarms. My bad - I love Shrikes, I run 2 units of 5 to run alongside my 2 Flyrants in my nid list.


Oh. I shall have a look at them later then.

Pyrovores

Yes I am going to defend the Pyrovore and give it some uses. Located in the Elites section of Tyranids Pyrovores really do come accross as, well, crap. They have a measly T4, 1A despite being able to ignore armour in close combat, trundles about as fast as a tortoise on Curare and can kill your own troops when it blows up. In short it seems like these guys have roughly the life expectancy of an ice cube in an oven. Yet I claim that this seemingly use unit has a place within the Tyranid army.

I am hinging on the basis of the flamespurt. Yes I know there are 2 obvious questions. One being how to get it within range as, already noted, travels very slowly and the second being what about it? The flamespurt has it uses because as a flamer weapon it ignores cover. However that is not the crux of my argument. Tyranids suffer from a problem of not having access to any sort of assault grenades within the army. This means that when charging into ruins and other areas of terrain Tyranids are automatically forced to strike last and as we know Tyranids are rather soft to being hit back and the loss of a couple more models than expected can put a dampener on a units assault ambitions. The flamespurt gives the option of ignoring cover when shooting and gives the Tyranids to instead gain the option of killing a few men from the target squad before piling in in close combat. It could mean the difference within a successful assault or one that is dampened by resisting enemies.

As stated the other question is how to get them there based on the notion that they are slow and blow up rather easily. I come with 2 solutions for the brood. One costs some points and can be rather disatrous if it goes wrong. The other option is cheaper in some sense and adds an unknown dimension to the Pyrovore assault.

First option is to buy the fellas a Mycetic Spore. This acts like a drop pod and can provide a taxi to the battlefield. It can however land on some enemy units, have deepstrike mishaps and of course scatter to locations in which the Pyrovores are now useless. Not to mention that it too can blow up rather easily.

Second option is more sneaky. Deep strike a Trygon as close as you dare near the enemy but direct the Trygon away from the Pyrovores target. Now because the Pyrovores are infantry they can make use of the dirty great tunnel that the Trygon made and appear instantly to start barbequing. If this is timed with a unit of assalt nids like Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Shrikes and even Sky Slasher Swarms to assault the remnants and the Pyrovores can then roam about flaming whatever they like. This works better because you also get the Trygon rampaging around as well (I know he is expensive but lets face it. The model is cool and the rules for the beast is awesome!) which is more likely to distract the opponents guns that might normally target the Pyrovores.

Hope these work for you.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> First option is to buy the fellas a Mycetic Spore. This acts like a drop pod and can provide a taxi to the battlefield. It can however land on some enemy units, have deepstrike mishaps and of course scatter to locations in which the Pyrovores are now useless. Not to mention that it too can blow up rather easily.


Actually it can't land on enermy/friendly units or impassable terrain, because of the "transport spore" rule. I think it works the same as the sm drop pods rule, through not sure, i havent actually seen the sm drop pod rules.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

jfvz said:


> Actually it can't land on enermy/friendly units or impassable terrain, because of the "transport spore" rule. I think it works the same as the sm drop pods rule, through not sure, i havent actually seen the sm drop pod rules.


I was referring more to scattering off the table. That could cause a deeo strike mishap. However the fact that the spore itself can scatter was the main issue. Not to mention providing yet another soft kill point for the other guy.

BTW How am I doing with this thing?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Quite well considering you've given a use for vespids and pyrovores. But what about a DA librarian? (other than the unlimited psychic hood which is obvious  )


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## msteward (Jan 5, 2011)

Find me a use for Chaos Bikers. They look sweet on the table but i have yet to find a worthwhile use for them.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> BTW How am I doing with this thing?


I found the notion of the thread somewhat arrogant and wasn't expecting to read anything revelatory about any of the crap units.

I wasn't pleasantly surprised.

Simply reading off the units stats and suggesting a simplistic use for the unit isn't really analysis. Anybody with a modicum of experience with the game can do something similar after a casual glance at the codex. Any meaty analysis has to take into account pts/FOC opportunity cost, likely opposition and likely battlefield scenarios. Stealth suits are an interesting example. On paper they appear decent, but don't bring anything the Tau army won't already have in spades and compete with the vastly superior crisis suits.

In summary, I'm a 10+ year vet with a ton of major (and minor) tournament success, but I wouldn't dream of trying to pontificate tactics for every dex. I'm aware of the limitations of my knowledge.


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## broran (Feb 1, 2011)

i wouldn't call pyrovores worthless but their definitly not worth being elite


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

OddJob said:


> I found the notion of the thread somewhat arrogant and wasn't expecting to read anything revelatory about any of the crap units.
> 
> I wasn't pleasantly surprised.
> 
> ...


I apologise if I seem a tad arrogant. Trust me that is not how this thread is meant to come across. I myself find it very frustrating when especially on army lists that certain players come accross to me as arrogant when they look at a codex and dismiss certain units and other items as being "completely pointless". I myself am trying by this thread to let people know that this is never the case. Look at the member who thought that Arco-flagellants were rubbish for GK's. After a little digging and looking I found that actually they can hit pretty damn hard.

Plus when I am going to play to win I like to excercise a little bit of psychological warfare at the same time. Plenty of people play a certain meta game. However try throwing an army it does not like can often throw an opponent. You think that your Razorspam army with lots of Meltaguns and fancy transport opening weapons (Which you expect to play against) comes up a massive hoard army and it is quite likely to get clobbered. In short I am showing how being a little experimental and going against the norm can sometimes be beneficial. Also because some guy on the internet says Unit X is clearly better than Unit Y does not mean that it should never be picked. In some cases I vehemently disagree against what is "good" and not. Perhaps you should try it for a laugh. See what happens.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I have not read through the entire thread, but there are simply some units that are absolutely terrible and no amount of strategy will turn that around. There is no psychological warfare involved in putting a pyrovore or ethereal down on the table, it's just a poor decision (for competitive players at least).

I can see uses for things like GK arco-flagellants and shrikes, but some units are unredeemable for a number of reasons such as FoC competition, being overpriced, having terrible rules, etc. No amount of strategy will change that.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Lets move on to Spawn..
> 
> First off I think that despite the total lack of an armour save Spawn are quite decent. For 40 points they get a reasonable T5, S5, 3 wounds and get the option as beasts to not only have a potential 12 inch assault range but they are entitled to the Fleet USR. A potential 24 inch charge range if the dice favour you.


You do understand that you have zero way to control them outside of deployment, they always count as having moved through difficult terrain(Strike at I1), and lack any form of grenades to counteract this slip up.
Also 40 points is a lot of points for something that's so incredibly fucking horrible.


Stephen_Newman said:


> Next we should also be aware that Spawn do not take up any slot in the FOC at all. This means that although they cannot capture obectives they can fill out an army without restricting the other choices you can take from that section. I prefer raptors but that is just me.


Continuing to shit on a list does not do anything to clean it. Instead of simply not wiping poo all over a list at fourty points a chunk, you can instead choose to excrete INFINITE feces on it? THIS IS NOT AN UPSIDE.


Stephen_Newman said:


> As for uses I say that since Spawn are not that big and have a reputation for being crap that there are quite a few opponents that wouls ignore tham and target other stuff. Since Span have a reasonable charge range (even if it is random) and their durability in CC means that Spawn are excellant distractions and tying down units.


You do understand, mathematically, a single unit of tau fire warriors, guardsmen, long fangs, obliterators, broadsides, or any unit that costs a lot, isn't good in CC, and is a prime target for the spawn to attack are:
A. Generally able to dodge the spawn's trajectory through the rest of the armies movements(Heavy support foot options are way in the back)
B. Completely capable of spending a single round of fire to bring down the spawn with zero chance of it surviving.
C. Most importantly. Even with piss awful CC statistics, if the spawn happens to charge these 'juicy' 'ideal' targets, it will get stomped to death in a single round of combat before it even swings one of it's fronds of penii onto anyone?


Stephen_Newman said:


> Against stuff like SM Devastators and Dark Reapers is where they could excell. They are a fair points trade off since such squads are more expensive and because of the high T value they will be tied up for a couple of turns sparing the rest of your force. In fact there are quite a few S3 enemies I believe would actually lose to such a unit in CC.


Mathematically you'd require:
<WS4 S3: 36 attacks
WS4 S3: 27 attacks
WS4 S4: 12 attacks
WS4 S8: 5.5 attacks
So a guardsmen squad of ten people(Who are out of the chimera, and without having shot at the spawn) will require three rounds of combat, on average, to kill the spawn outright. But we forget that the damn stupid thing is fearless.
Spawn's percentage to harm GeQ:
Attk:1d6+1:Average 4, 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.1 dead guardsman.
So on the best case scenario, a 40pt spawn will kill 1.1 guardsmen a turn while they(on average) always deal one wound in return. If the guardsmen don't hurt it and flee, it cannot pursue them due to being SaP, so they trot away, and rapid fire it to death. Ideally it'll stay throughout the combat and eventually kill 3.3 soldiers, worth around 15-30 points(Guardsmen to tau). The best case scenario is that it still loses you a killpoint, kills less than it's worth, and has no tactical value.


Stephen_Newman said:


> Not to mention that on an opponents back line there are also tasty vulnerable units that could be destroyed. Eldar farseers spring to mind at the top of my head as well as tanks.


An eldar farseer with either a wytchblade or spear will annhilate the spawn in a single psychic test without trouble. Eldrad will laugh hysterically at it.


Stephen_Newman said:


> Yes since tanks get hit on the rear armour in CC and a decent S5 and getting a reasonable number of attacks mean a Spawn could actually damage the opponents tank because he overlooked it for something like your LR. Imagine a guard or a Tau player who would be so pissed off if his Leman Russ or Hammerhead gets destroyed by a Spawn. That is embarrasing. Even if it fails I doubt an opponent will risk it again so that means less fire directed at your more valuable units.


Also bear in mind the spawn is a measly t5, meaning a vindicator shot, or any number of the myriad of mythical beast horseshit tanks ig have can paste it.
Plus, let's say you roll boxcars to run after an immobilized rhino, let's say you roll short of jesus' 2nd coming miracle quality dice. You kill the immobilized rhino. You are now up 35 points...for 40 points.


Stephen_Newman said:


> In addition because they ahve T5 they are also useful, like servitors, at tying up a unit that relies on small numbers of high S attacks like normal powerfists and Thunder hammers. They can last a while meaning you can muster your forces elsewhere for a small reprieve and concentrate on other things.
> 
> So quite a few uses for a small amount of points then.


It's fourty fucking points. I could have bought a pimped out terminator who listens to what I tell it to, has range, has the ability to harm vehicles(powerfist) and things with an armor save. And is even more impervious to harm(GeQ requires 36 attacks to punch through a terminator, but also carries it's invul save)
A single terminator with a thunderhammer would splatter a spawn, god forbid a squad of them show up.
Actually using chaos spawn, if a full contingency went into battle against a 5-man THammer squads, they'd not only be decimated and deal nothing in return, but also provide the THammers 120 of your points, and a massacre movement.
They are entirely unusable and incomprehensibly poor in terms of effectiveness. I'd let you bring eight hundred thousand MILLION of the damn things if you let me bring a single land raider to the game. They're everything a real player hates about models. They're ineffective at the only job they can do, they aren't tactically sound, they're uncontrollable, and they're expensive. That's four thumbs down. They're so bad I had to hire someone elses thumbs to point down at them.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I apologise if I seem a tad arrogant.


Na, I'm sorry- must have been grumpy that day as I didn't for one second think your thread was borne of arrogance. It's just generally quite Naive though.



LordWaffles said:


> That's four thumbs down. They're so bad I had to hire someone elses thumbs to point down at them.


I LoLed pretty hard. Consider my downward pointed thumbs yours to command.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Naive? I could agree with you there. However there always be some units that do not look too good that people declare is shit but actually are decent to use when used right.

I admit that there are some units that will never be picked ahead of others but I just aim to show that there is nothing without use.

As for the list. I will continue with it but I am busy with real life at the moment.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I admit that there are some units that will never be picked ahead of others but I just aim to show that there is nothing without use.
> 
> As for the list. I will continue with it but I am busy with real life at the moment.


If you want I can continue with it, it's really easy, I just say "Fluff army" and people will consider it a valid response.


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## moswantd407 (Jul 7, 2011)

Okay i have one Legion of the damned i have never seen them let alone found a use for them


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

moswantd407 said:


> Okay i have one Legion of the damned i have never seen them let alone found a use for them



Though a tad expensive they can give you good weapons where you want them in a crisis or help in contesting a objective. If they hit terrain on their deep strike they have a 3++ to give them a good chance of survival and they wont be shied away by that demolisher cannon they land next to.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I like this thread. I knew it would be a matter of time till the competitive guys showed up and completly gawked at the Idea that someone showed a unit can be used. Even if there is Better and Cheaper units. 

Good Job.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> I like this thread. I knew it would be a matter of time till the competitive guys showed up and completly gawked at the Idea that someone showed a unit can be used. Even if there is Better and Cheaper units.
> 
> Good Job.


Nobody's gawking at anything. People are just saying that just because someone can glance at a unit's stats and equipment and conjure up a scenario where they can be useful doesn't mean that the unit is any good.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Nobody's gawking at anything. People are just saying that just because someone can glance at a unit's stats and equipment and conjure up a scenario where they can be useful doesn't mean that the unit is any good.


In the words of crabs in Finding Nemo, "Heeeyyy hey hey heeeeeyyy!" I already said ...


Warlock in Training said:


> Even if there is Better and Cheaper Units.


 However Waffles (who IS very good at what works in the C:CSM) pointed the obvious reasons why not to use them. I think the point of the thread was How they can be used. Just like the whole LC Chaos Termies with IoS in a Raider CAN be used, if not the smartest way to spend points, discussions.

Now if this was a Tactics article on how to play better in the Meta Game I would be against Stephen. However he made it plain this is simply finding the worst units and finding a use for them in some scenario. I dont understand why anyone would post anything in here about "this unit sucks cause of A or B reasons" There is hundreds of Tactic Threads that discuss this. So anyone who post earlier of "this unit sucks because..." are Gawking that anyone would try to show a usefulness for whatever unit.

Thats how I read it anyway... I could be wrong on the intentions..... happens alot on forum post.....:dunno:


BTW Stephen, do one on Great Unclean One


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