# The Nature and Power of Tzeentch



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Just how Powerful is Tzeentch?

How much Control does he really have over Mortals? He has been called the Puppet Master, is this accurate?

How do followers of Tzeentch worship there god? (eg. Khorne Worshippers, 'Worship' by murdering, slaughtering, war, etc. Slaanesh Worshippers, 'Worship' by reveling in extreme pleasure etc.) To Worship a warp god in my mind means preforming actions which empower/feed the particular god (eg. Battle and Anger empowers Khorne), So what would this involve in the case of Tzeentch? - Sorcerery? Scheming? Plotting? Or does this quote sum it up? :
"Don't you see? My Master Tzeentch cares not which of the Great Powers of Chaos you serve. In the end, aren't the followers of the Blood God changing valiant warriors into headless corpses? Aren't the worshippers of the Lord of Flies changing strong, healthy bodies into rotting, diseased carcasses? Aren't the disciples of the Dark Prince changing stern, steadfast heroes into slaves to their own senses? Chaos is a struggle to change, you must agree. Change rules all."

The Chaos Daemons codex describes him as once ruling supreme over the other Warp Gods (Although this doesn't mean much given the nature of the Great Game) - then the combined armies of the other 3 gods eventually triumphed over Tzeentch, which resulted in Tzeentch shattering his own symbol of power; his staff. The Blue scribes were sent to recover every fragment of his staff so he could regain superiority. The last sentence of the Story is thus:
"If the two were ever to accomplish their mission, Tzeentch would regain his supremacy and once more rule over all creation." - Is this an indicator of how Powerful Tzeentch use to be, when he had his staff? - "Rule over all creation" - did he once really rule over all creation?

The Chaos Daemons codex also describes him as "(his gaze) encompasses all of the past and all of the present". But not the future, although he knows all of the possible futures he does not know which will come to pass, this is also his only weakness; As he cannot hold all of these possible futures in his vast intellect (as there are infinite possibilities, everything in the galaxy effects the threads of possible futures). Tzeentch was said to have travelled to the "Centre of Reality, to the mystic well of Eternity, where space and time originate and end" - He threw his Vizir; Kairos (A Lord of Change) into the well, he re-emerged as the 'Fateweaver, Oracle of Tzeentch' and is said to know the future. Although it later states that Tzeentch can conceal the future from him. Does this give us any insight into Tzeentch, what he is or isnt, or what he is capable of?

"Champions of Tzeentch may be little more then pieces in the eternal, convoluted game that Tzeentch plays with all mortals..." Just how influential are his schemes on mortals? If he willed it could he produce schemes that could shape the material universe to his liking (if it isn't as he wants it already)?

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I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts on Tzeentch? How powerful do you think he is? How influential? How would mortals worship him? and are they helpless before him?

One more question i would like to know your opinion on is concerning Magnus the Red. I think it can viewed that Magnus doesn't have any allegience to Tzeentch. During the Great Crusade he believed he and his legion could master the warp, the cold truth is that they couldn't and it eventually mastered them, maybe he hates Chaos and Tzeentch? Following The Rubric, Magnus exiled Ahriman on an eternal quest to understand Tzeentch, in the hope of eventually breaking free from Tzeentch's bonds maybe? 

Or is Magnus, who is now a Daemon Prince, too far down the path to throw off the embrace of Chaos? Or does he even care? Or is he simply now a traitor whose full allegience is to the Architect of Fate?

What are your thoughts on these topics? :good:


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## rata tat tat (Dec 23, 2008)

I feel as if I may be out of my depth here but I would like to contribute this.

Tzeentch is also the embodiment of contradiction. While he may promote chaos and dissolution he is also the embodiment of form/matter and it's underlying axioms.

The laws that he has made (and probably forgotten the details of) are thus capable of being bent to the will of sorcerers.

Perhaps without his staff he is unwilling to link all aspects of his intellect/consciousness and therefore has something akin to omniscient Alzheimer's disease. In that, as you said, he knows all the past, present and possible futures but cannot determine which is going to happen.

In Planetkill there's a short story, can't remember the title off-hand, where a Lord of Change is bound as a court ambassador to a daemon prince. The author's depiction of a Lord of Change's cognition was quite intriguing and would probably only be reflected a hundred-fold in its deity's case. The main theme seemed to a sort fractured and fleeting omniscience. All could be perceived and understood but for only an instant and then the rationale and logic would be washed away in a chaotic exultation of change change CHANGE.

I dunno, check out that story it might help. :good:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Interesting k:

I like the idea of him having Omniscient Alzheimer's disease, it makes sense, considering, as you said he knows all of the past and present but only the strands of the future. 

"All could be perceived and understood but only for an instant and then the rationale and logic would be washed away in a chaotic exultation of change, change, change!" 

I like this, it has given me a new outlook on Tzeentch :good:

Any other thoughts guys?!


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

The fact that he does not know the future would seem to but him a step behind not only Eldrad Ulthran but pretty much most Farseers in the Eldar empire. It would seem that Tzeentch's power is mainly focused around the 'short-term' things, of other plans that he has the ability to control all factors in. However this could even be said about and person, let alone a 'god'. It seems to me that Tzeentch's power extends to mainly sorcery but he will always try a little manipulaton to spice things up.

One sec, someones at the door. "Oh, hello Mr Inquisitor" *BANG*


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## Ravingbantha (Jan 9, 2009)

In the Deamons of Chaos Codex it talks about how it took the other 3 chaos gods to beat him, they scattered his knowledge of magic across the Universe and Tzeentch has minions out looking for them. Sorry Mickelz, but Tzeentch's plans span thousands upon thousands of years and he is constantly affecting the timeline as he sees fit.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ravingbantha said:


> In the Deamons of Chaos Codex it talks about how it took the other 3 chaos gods to beat him, they scattered his knowledge of magic across the Universe and Tzeentch has minions out looking for them. Sorry Mickelz, but Tzeentch's plans span thousands upon thousands of years and he is constantly affecting the timeline as he sees fit.


Tzeentch's plans span across and effect ALL of space and time, more than thousands of years! :biggrin:

And yes i think your underestimating Tzeentch there Mickelz. 

And also The Eldar Farseers do not know the future. They know possible strands of the future, and try to bring about the most favourable one for their craftworld.

Where as Tzeentch knows ALL possible futures (or at least his oracle does) - Farseers do not know all the possible futures, if Tzeentch cannot hold all the possible threads of the future in his massive intellect, there is no chance a mere eldar could. pffft :good:


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## Abbo (May 30, 2008)

If he really knew everything that happened in the past and all futures, he would have not have the problem finding his staff.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Abbo said:


> If he really knew everything that happened in the past and all futures, he would have not have the problem finding his staff.


Im just quoting the Codex!! But yes this may seem contradictory! - however the shards of his staff were scattered across space AND time, this means into the future aswell. As he doesn't know which future is going to pass (although he can manipulate the past and present in an attempt to change the future) - the Shards hes still missing could be lost in the future somewhere? maybe? :good:

Also remember that time simply does not exist in the warp. Things don't occur in a strict sequence of Cause then effect in the warp. (yes this is incomprehensable to us!) so i imagine their is still some obstacle which is preventing Tzeentch from re-obtaining his staff.

Or maybe some of the other Warp Gods have parts of his staff, preventing Tzeentch from becoming dominant again! Or even lesser daemons have parts of it attempting to gain some power? or even some mortals in the material realm have some?

The Codex can also be seen as implying that the shards of his staff are actually spells, Maybe he will need to know ALL spells ever created/used or ever will be created/used in order to regain his staff? :no:


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

I stand corrected, seems I might have underestimated him just a lil. It still does seem weird that if before his fall from power, if he really had been able to see the future, that he wouldnt have either avoided it or somehow made it easier for his knowlage to be founds again. Hmmm, im going to take the easy way out and say that the damning nature of chaos is not something a sane minded person (which i like to think i am) should seek out and learn :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Micklez said:


> I stand corrected, seems I might have underestimated him just a lil. It still does seem weird that if before his fall from power, if he really had been able to see the future, that he wouldnt have either avoided it or somehow made it easier for his knowlage to be founds again. Hmmm, im going to take the easy way out and say that the damning nature of chaos is not something a sane minded person (which i like to think i am) should seek out and learn :biggrin:


:victory:

Indeed mate - its all Incomprehensable to us really! for that is the nature of the Warp!

However its nice to know peoples opinions and theories on such things :biggrin:

And yes he knew all the *possible* futures prior to his 'fall' - which would obviously include his downfall. But then again maybe he choose to fall from power in order to achieve a balance in the warp, this would result in a sort of stalemate between the gods which would continue the push and shove nature of the Great Game, continuing to power Tzeentch through the process of Change. Because if tzeentch won the Great Game this would happen, quote:

"... for if all other warp powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist" 

Or he just wasn't able to manipulate the future in the way he wanted and so therefore he fell from power?


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

But then why not just feign weakness, surely if he was so good at deception, magic and change as it states he is he could have had a cloak of deception or what not. I mean i the Emperor could do it and Tzeentch claims to be the master then he could be able to do it


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## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't think GW know exactly how Tzeentch's powers work. For example, we're assuming that time is linear. You could reject this and look at Tzeentch's powers from the viewpoint that events and objects do not move; but that it is instead part of a fundamental intellectual structure within which humans sequence and compare events. In that way Tzeentch would be the ultimate manipulator & would be very able to know the past, present and future as they all exist at the same time, just not to mortals.

Just an idea...


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

how would the warp become still if gork mork and the emperor were still there and there is also the extremely powerful thing that created the tyranids


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

i was replying to "... for if all other warp powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist"


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Micklez said:


> But then why not just feign weakness, surely if he was so good at deception, magic and change as it states he is he could have had a cloak of deception or what not. I mean i the Emperor could do it and Tzeentch claims to be the master then he could be able to do it


Perhaps he did do that. Tzeentch could have allowed his staff to be broken and deceive everyone he was looking for it while his actual plans went unnoticed. Does not Tzeentch have a hand in everything?

Slaughter _changes_ the living into the dead
Decay _changes_ the pure into the rotten
Excess _changes_ the mundane into extreme pleasure through new experiences of the given object.

But yes i'm with the general consensus that Tzeentch would allow himself to be toppled just so he could plot again. Afterall stability is the opposite of change and would mark the death of Tzeentch.

Regarding time in the warp and the staff of Tzeentch. As time is non linear there would be no need for Tzeentch to look/go into the future to retrieve his staff. He would always have it and he would never have it. The staff must contain/represent something that can ascend the limits/concepts of time. As was mentioned it could be the spells or some fundamental intuition/knowledge like transcendental aesthetic. Simply put it exists through pure intuition and not emperical reasoning as that would require time and space. But then how did he lose it? Hmmm... time for bed methinks.

And damn you Child-of-the-Emperor for introducing me to a new forum


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## Ravingbantha (Jan 9, 2009)

I think it's possible to see all the possible strands of Future and past and still loose an item. After all it would be like looking for a needle in a field of Haystacks... eventually you will find it.

As for being able to see all futures and still loosing to the other 3 chaos gods, it is possible that was the best outcome. Perhaps it even sets up a situation where he can use that 'defeat' to buy enough time to be able to defeat all the others. Now that his staff is gone, the other 3 chaos gods are no longer working together to overthrow Tzeentche.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Ravingbantha said:


> I think it's possible to see all the possible strands of Future and past and still loose an item. After all it would be like looking for a needle in a field of Haystacks... eventually you will find it.


But space and time are, well... warped by the warp (if you will). Things have always existed and never existed. Sort of like one of the Discworld novels i think it may have been 'Pyramids' (don't know for sure, long time ago) but people were killed long before their killer was born, and plants were harvested before their seed had been planted. It is a complete break down of all rational concepts, so past, present and future would simply be one point in time and yet all points in time. Space would be everywhere and nowhere. Then again i'm not sure i could argue my point without losing my mind :shok:


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## Ravingbantha (Jan 9, 2009)

true, but then again it's probabe that the things that Tzeentch does is part of a greater scheme. It's obvious that he can be defeated, but then again those defeats may just be part of his overall plan.


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

i always thought that tzeench was the weakest besides slaanesh


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

I consider tzeench to be by far the most powerful and subtle of the chaos gods his very nature is change perhaps he allowed his staff to be broken purley because he was bored of bieng dominant. If you read the chaos daemons fluff in the new 5th edition big rulebook Nurgle wats a planet tries to get it fails then enlists the help of korne and slanesh to gain it they are thwarted by the grey knights and begin bickering and tzeench i quote "Tzeench, the great schemer watched his brother gods squabbling and fighting amongst themselves and smiled." so Tzeench if he did win the war amongst the gods would be pitched into a self destructive cycle and probably die.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> i always thought that tzeench was the weakest besides slaanesh


There is no 'weakest' Chaos God. Khorne is assumed to be the most dominant but thats only because he only uses brute strength. Where as the others are more subtle. 

The Eternal Great Game is a constant game of 'push and shove' - Often one god will become dominant, then the other 3 will unite to topple the dominant one, only for another to betray his fellow gods and usurp power. Its a eternal game. At different times a different god is more dominant in the warp, there is no 'strongest' :good:



Marchosias said:


> And damn you Child-of-the-Emperor for introducing me to a new forum


:victory:



Marchosias said:


> Regarding time in the warp and the staff of Tzeentch. As time is non linear there would be no need for Tzeentch to look/go into the future to retrieve his staff. He would always have it and he would never have it. The staff must contain/represent something that can ascend the limits/concepts of time. As was mentioned it could be the spells or some fundamental intuition/knowledge like transcendental aesthetic. Simply put it exists through pure intuition and not emperical reasoning as that would require time and space. But then how did he lose it? Hmmm... time for bed methinks.


And yes i totally agree with this :good:

Its like the quote in chaos daemons codex saying that although Slaanesh gained consciousness in M29, he has always existed in the warp but at the same time has never existed :so_happy:


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## Captain Forrix (Nov 10, 2009)

This sort of fits in to the general question about the nature of gods and chaos in general.
I think that in reference to him ruling over all of creation, 1, would that be just the 40k universe or a multiverse? 2, If he ruled over all creation how could the other 3 even threaten him? 3 most importantly how could he do that given that he did not create the 40k universe to begin with?(because it seems that The Well of Eternity is where it all came from, and where did that come from?) These are important questions to understanding the universe of 40k, and a simple answer much like a simple answer about our own universe is not easy to give.


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## Supremehydra (Nov 20, 2009)

If he knew all the past, then why can't he find his own shatterED staff pieces?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Supremehydra said:


> If he knew all the past, then why can't he find his own shatterED staff pieces?


This question has already been answered in this thread.

The fragments of his staff were flung across space and time, that means into the future, which is a domain where Tzeentch is not so knowledgable.

Aside from that its plausable that some are simply beyond his reach, he may know where they are, but they are still beyond him. (Eg Slaanesh may have one, or one may reside on Terra etc...)

Or given the nature of Tzeentch its perfectly plausable that he prevents himself from gaining them, for the sake of change.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Who cares about the wording, ruling all creation sounds EPIC. Which is what the authers where going for.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

it's all from who's point of view are you watching.. For Tzeencth all is change: the pure changes to rot, but for papa-nurgle the rotten stays rotten for ever. No more change. The same applies for the other gods. If eventually there will be a winner in the great game then will we know who is stronger... I'm for Khorne, strength and pure rage!!!!


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Thought I'd contribute with a quotation:

"Don't you see? My Master Tzeentch cares not which of the Great Powers of Chaos you serve.

In the end, aren't the followers of the Blood God changing valiant warriors into headless corpses? Aren't the worshippers of the Lord of Flies changing strong, healthy bodies into rotting, diseased carcasses? Aren't the disciples of the Dark Prince changing stern, steadfast heroes into slaves to their own senses?

Chaos is a struggle to change, you must agree. Change rules all."

/Chaos Daemon Codex, p. 39/


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Thought I'd contribute with a quotation:
> 
> "Don't you see? My Master Tzeentch cares not which of the Great Powers of Chaos you serve.
> 
> ...


Yea I included that quote in the opening post 

I think it just goes to show how much overlap is encompassed into the nature of the Chaos Gods.



pylco said:


> it's all from who's point of view are you watching.. For Tzeencth all is change: the pure changes to rot, but for papa-nurgle the rotten stays rotten for ever. No more change. The same applies for the other gods.


Not exactly what Nurlge is about. Nurgle is about despair and inevitability; the fact that everything no matter how strong and seemingly permenant will eventually rot down and die. 

In this sense Nurgle is about the cycle of life. The inevitable cycle of the death and rebirth of all things.

He doesn't represent the the idea that the rotten stays rotten for ever, he represents the inevitability of death, but also in that sense of rebirth.



pylco said:


> If eventually there will be a winner in the great game then will we know who is stronger... I'm for Khorne, strength and pure rage!!!!


I dont think there will be. The Daemons codex explicity states that there will never be a true winner.


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## demdaemonprince (Feb 17, 2010)

So tzeentch is just looking for a drama fix? huh, that does make sense. it makes sense that though he could see the future and affect it, he still lost his superiority over the other Chaos Gods to keep the fun coming. as the fluff and other members have stated, he really doesn't have any final objective; he just wants the universe to keep dancing (to a tune of his choosing, of course!) whatever the reason, Tzeentch is definately my favorite god. he's just so dissmissive of mortals! they're toys to him moreso than any other god. but if your his favorite puppet.....


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Tzeentch is the lord of change, fortune, intrigue, and similarity.

And as stated before, everything contributes to change.

Think about it, everything you do creates change, and thus wether intentional or not, everybody and everyting in the 40K universe is essentially "worshipping" Tzeentch because they all are making change.

The way the other 3 Gods threaten him is similar to how a rebellion threatens a government. However they are still making him stronger by creating change.

It's a wonder why he isn't Lord of the Universe by now, with all the change that happens daily in the 40K universe.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

This is the way I have always viewed Tzeentch:

Because of him losing his former powers, he plots and schemes but maybe dosen't fully understand what his endgame is. Here is a quote from The Dark Knight movie that I thought that fits with Tzeentch's nature...

"I'm like a dog chasing a car. I wouldn't know what to do with one when i finally caught it!" (something like that)

He represents change but also sorcery so i would assume that he would be worshipped by rituals and such. Also keep in mind that Tzeentch represents the Exterme sense of change, so he probably dosen't mind what changes as long as it does.

I like thinking of it like he is playing chess with the universe. He has to consider Every outcome that his "opponents" will make. So yes he might lose a pawn here and there but only to take out a knight or a rook. He dosen't know for sure what move his opponents will make so he has to stay open for all possibilites but he can't stay fixed on believeing One outcome will happen. He also can see if he moves here than he can be given the upper hand so he will try to influence his opponent to move there, only for it to be a trap.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Since I`ve joined the forum, I`ce seen at least a dozen times CotE has mentioned that time is meaningless in the Warp. Irrelevant, but amusing. 


On topic, Tzeentch in my opinion is simply everything. The tale of his staff can easily be taken for a metaphor regarding lost knowledge. It may well be that he once did indeed encompass all, and the tale of the other gods overthrowing his rule could simply reflect the escalation of conflict in the galaxy. Perhaps, whenever this particular era occured is when the other three grew to a recogniseable power level enough to threaten Tzeentch`s dominance.

Rather than be completely deposed, Tzeentch willingly relinquished some of his knowledge and power to appease the others and stay part of the Great Game for the long term. It is entirely possible that this was all forseen and planned for. 

As for his nature seeming to contradict itself, I take this as representing the diminished power of his once limitless ability. Rather than simply know everything as he once did (perhaps) he now knows possibilities and must work to bring about his favoured outcome. Hence, the aspect of the schemer and manipulator. 

I also agree with the quote mentioned by CotE and Korothis. Direct worship doesn`t matter to Tzeentch, or indeed any of the four. They are raw emotion made sentient by sheer volume, so the mere deed acted or emotion felt will feed them. 

My take on it anyway. I try not to overthink the subject too much. :scratchhead:


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## Kill Maim Burn (Jan 26, 2011)

I do apologise if this has already been said.

I hate to admint it being a loyal Blood God fan, but i once heard an argument to dow ith the chaos gods that made alot of sense to me.

So long as Theres anger, murder and spilt blood Khorne will exist

So long as theres sickness and disease Nurgle will exist

So long as there is pleasure, pain and the bits inbetween Slaanesh will exist

So long as time passes Tzeentch will exist

To me that means no matter what happens Tzeentch will always be there for infnite. If every race and every life form in the material realm were to be wiped away no living things what-so-ever (including necrons who i know arent alive) then there would be no blood to spill, no flesh to plague, no perverse pain and pleasure, just time in an endless void.

I know this doesnt really help with the power thing but it does kinda show that tzeentch is truly immortant no matter what happens...if you agree that is


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

The thing that boggles my brain is how it took the 3 other gods to defeat Tzeentch and yet Slaanesh was only "born" around 10000 years ago. I understand the timelessness theory of the warp but just can't get my head around how Slaanesh was born about 200 years before the Horus Heresy and yet was around much longer than that to help defeat Tzeentch.

Ouch my brain hurts :wacko:

Something we're never meant to truly understand I guess :crazy:


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm in support of the notion that Tzeentch does see all possible outcomes for the future. I'm guessing he always chooses the most beneficial one every time, but due to his nature, that future will never come into fruition. 

As soon as he follows a plan, he's caught up in his next scheme which is probably derived from the repercussions of following his previous plan. 

Many people agree that it is his eternal scheming which grants him sustenance, so his long-term plans could inevitably change to something more short-sighted, while still being beneficial - And vice versa, his short-sighted goals may change to accomodate ideas meant for the long run.

And as you agreed, Tzeentch is comprehensively difficult to understand!


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Tzeentch is, imo, the post powerful of the 'gods'.

I'll have to explain this a bit.

The gods are based on the emotions of sentient life (gonna use human from now on) and the way the warp works means that even though a particular god may have been born as a point time it has always existed (confusing or what?).

I suspect the gods (no matter how powerful) are simply the warp; not warp creatures but the actual warp. I think there is a complex process under which the strong human emotions shape/create the realms of the big four and the entities of the warp which are drawn to the various realms physically embody this raw emotion or god concept and upon entering the corporeal realm and doing their various things (eg khorne daemon killing people) reinforce and strengthen the concept of that god. So although the concept of the god is caused by human emotion the process is cyclic.

I should add that I believe that the ork gods are chaos gods by different names or slightly different aspects of the existing gods (in the same way that Slaanesh commonly represents the extremities of pleasure/hedonism whilst there are other less loony aspects of these emotions) and I consider the Eldar Gods to be some sort of warp entities/daemons that represented certain aspects of the Eldar emotions and were overthrown by the new god concepts (If you have read Neil Gaiman's American Gods my waffle might make more sense).

This is a very long way of saying that the gods, IMO, do not actually exist. There is only the warp and the warp changes. Tzeentch represents everything. Again, as others have already said everything the other gods do represents change and even the birth of the other gods is a change in the pantheon. Tzeentch is therefore the most powerful, because it derives for the most universal concept - change.

Now on to the power of Tzeentch. We have seen in the HH series that Tzeentch has very long term plans. We have also seen that Tzeentch cannot know everything.



eg Tzeentch (or the daemon atleast) hoped that the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons would wipe each other out 


Now on to the Magnus question. I read the codx section on Ahriman in the last week and I also re-read A Thousand Sons a week ago.

I got the impression that Magnus at some point turns to worship of Tzeentch and many of his (Thousand) sons accept the flesh change and follow Magnus with this worship.

Ahriman and many others find the change abhorrent leading to the rubrik.

I would love to believe that Ahriman is sent to search for a way to change the legion back to its former untainted self, but the impression I get from the codex is that Ahriman is literally cursed to try and understand Tzeentch. Ahriman may in fact think he is doing this voluntary or that this understanding will save his legion, but it is doomed to fail.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Has anyone considerd that the previously omnipotent tzeench may have contained the other gods as well? As has already been said all the other gods do is ultimately beneficial to tzeench, so is it such a great stretch to imagine tht when we say the other gods banded together to defeat him that tzeench experienced a case of split personalities, so the original tzeench split 4 ways so when we refer to tzeenches staff bieng broken we actualy been his omnipotent psyke dividing to become the other four gods and similtaneously creating all spells?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

@Increaso 
On that CLICK HERE button you put, why would he want them both to be wiped out? Didn't he favor Magnus?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> @Increaso
> On that CLICK HERE button you put, why would he want them both to be wiped out? Didn't he favor Magnus?


I'll PM you as it's strictly a spoiler.

EDIT: You will need to empty your mail box


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

out of all the chaos gods (for want of a better word) the big T is the one that noone can say for definate this is how he is. Khorne....a rampaging berserker warrior looking for the next bloodletting, blood soaked, skull littered battlefield. Nurgle...every medical establishments nightmare and lord of all disease, plague etc. Slannesh is the symbol of everything hedonistic and plesureable but with Tzeench it is not quite as clear cut.
As was said he seems to have a milllion billion plans to fold out but never quite gets round to finishing them and i suppose in my opinion this s what makes him powerful.
the other three seem to focus on one thing whereas T focus's on a whole unioverse of things at the same time. He is called the master of fate, the changer of ways amongst other things for a reason and whilst he cannot directly influence the future as he seems to be powerful over past and present but not so much the future, he had prequisence enough to head straight for tthe Thousand Sons.
He was canny enlough to give Magnus what he wanted for a short time...control over the flesh change and extract a bargain but, in the end as with any of the four, such bargains have a price to pay and the price for the Thousand Sons was too high even for Magnus.
I don't believe Magnus follows the changer as a loyal follower, i think it is just a case of he was set up, he was hounded into almost oblivion by his father and his brother Russ and he did the only thing he could to save the remainder of his sons and that is what the changer saw or i believe that is what he saw.
a leigon that could be exclusivley his although wether or not that is the case i don't actually think he cares.
His power is so vast that the other gods got jealous and ganged up on him, they couldn't directly harm him but they could destroy something that was important to him, so if it took all three to do that together whereas they couldn't do it one on one then yeah i'd say he is pretty awesome in thestakes of power.
if he is the ideal of creation then that makes him by default the oldest and most powerful of the four.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Im honestly suprised that some theologist hasnt tried to write a book about the Philosophy oh the chaos gods...

We could discuss this til the end of time. Tzeench is what it is because it just is. The big 4 will always exsist in the 40k universe because no matter what, they get fed power form anyone and everyone. Consider this when when orks go to war yes they feed good ol khorne, yet at the same time they feed slaanesh since they do enjoy the killing and the destruction, but also nurgle gets fuel because everything rots and decays and new life is created in this manner giving way to bacteria, maggots, flies, and allowing the ground to be fertilized giving way to new plant life, and yet tzeench gains power as well in the whoie process just because when war is occuring generals make plans and strategies, living beings die and rot away and new life is born as well, which is all simply everything changes and brings in new possibilities.

As long as there are living mortal creatures chaos will exsist and mortals will die and change everyday. If the big 4 were to actually exsist we would be feeding them every day of our lives uknowingly. Change is just one of those constants which we try to understand but never will because nothing ever stays the same we change everyday. 

As for the fluff in the codex yes it can be taken in a metaphorical sense and a literal sense but yet the same goes with the bible. We can say that the seas will turn to blood and there are also ways the seas can turn to blood by there being too many dead things in it or even odd chemical reactions in the water.

My point here is that no matter what none of the big 4 will ever make any sense to us even if it was explained plain as day to us.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and that is how u get a migraine sized headache because it is not as clear cut as it could be in "normal" circumstances, although what is ever normal about religions is anyones guess. nice post Spore have some rep for that one


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I agree with Spore about as long as there are mortals, Chaos will exist. Thats why i feel that Chaos isn't trying to destroy all life, although some Khorne worshipers might want to!:laugh:

But ALL of the gods are greedy, so lets say they all in the future almost completly wipe everything out. What would they do?


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

I read in Grey Knights Omnibus, when Alaric Battler Razael the cunning. That Tzeentch requires Humans to be fooled into believing he is good and then come to end he devours their souls. Something like that, I would have to read more up on it. Razael the cunning was sent to trick humans into believing in Tzeentch is good, but when the made travel to warp, they were consumed by him.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

DeathGuardGarro said:


> I read in Grey Knights Omnibus, when Alaric Battler Razael the cunning. That Tzeentch requires Humans to be fooled into believing he is good and then come to end he devours their souls. Something like that, I would have to read more up on it. Razael the cunning was sent to trick humans into believing in Tzeentch is good, but when the made travel to warp, they were consumed by him.


This is kinda true of all the Chaos gods. Very few worshippers are aware who they are worshipping. The name Tzeentch would be meaningless to the vast majority dabbling in sorcery across the Universe. Pleasure cults etc won't know nor care who Slaanesh is, only a very small number will be aware of the Chaos Gods at all.

With regards to the Crystal Staff, he shattered it and cast it into the mortal universe across time as spells. But he has no dominion over the mortal realm, he cannot go there to reclaim the spells. He also doesn't trust any of the Lord of Change so he cannot send them, that's why it's up to a fairly lowly minion to do it. 

The only reason Tzeentch cannot look into the future is because that is his nature. All the gods have a nature, boundaries on their power which defines them as entities. Farseers look into the strands of times and see how choices effect the end result, then interfere to make sure the strand they choose is the one that's followed. Tzeentch is trying the same thing with the Oracle, looking at the strands of time and trying to influence them to further his position in the Great Game. The problem is the Great Game is so inscrutable his actions can seem almost random. That is just the nature of him as a god, just like Nurgle likes making plagues.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

I've always wondered, can Tzeentch affect events in the past? I have frequently read that time has no meaning in the warp, and Tzeentch can see every event in the past and the present. So I was wondering can he change past events? I know his "plans" are interwoven across time and space as Liber Chaotica (which is a fantastic book) says: 
"Indeed, there are those who believe that Tzeentch's plans and schemes are so impossibly vast and complex, and so tightly woven across space and time that they touch the lives of almost every being in existence, whether they know it or not."

So can he? Now I know that Tzeentch's major flaw is that he's utterly psychotic, and that he has no true goal, but still...if he can chage the past....

P.S Tzeentch has always been the scariest God in my opion, simply because he has all that power and he's utterly mad, or at least, he likes to meddle. It's like if the Christian God was crazy...

P.P.S In fact a scarier thought is, if he wasn't crazy imagine what he could achieve...nothing could stop him.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Personally, I think that it's Tzeentch who's even keeping the Imperium alive so long. Think about it- if the Imperium falls, then most of his favourite little pawns will fall with it; yes, he'd have his followers but I can easily imagine that manipulating those who are unaware of just who's in charge would be much more fun. Also, he'd loose a major tool in keeping her brother gods from becoming too powerful, ie the legions of Imperial Guardsmen and Astartes who keep on disrupting their plans. Without the mortals to occupy them, the rest of the Ruinous Powers would start fighting each other directly again and there's a chance that tey might defeat Tzeentch once more. Having a large empire to use to fight the others, while they think that they're harming Chaos while actually working for it, I think is a very Tzeentch thing to do.
As the great Michael Moorcock said, both ultimate law and ultimate chaos lead to stagnation, or something like that. Destroying the Imperium is one big step towards destroying the other civilisations- the Eldar and the Tau- and hence Chaos ruling the entire galaxy. Is it just me who think Tzeentch would find that very boring? Manipulating daemons and daemon princes- as most of the surviving Chaos worshippers would become- wouldn't be a patch on the games he plays with mortals. There'd be no challenge in it, I think, no fun. With mortals you get the struggling and attempts to cheat fate, even as Tzeentch's plans close in around them like a trap; and maybe he let's one 'win' from time to time? But that's beside the point, which I think it's in Tzeentch's interests to keep humanity alive. Put basically, it's wouldn't be like winning the game for him- it'd be more like sweeping half or more of the pieces off the board and onto the floor. And a game's no fun when ther' nobody to play it with.

(This is just my opinion, btw. Feel free to disagree. Also, I am a Tzeentch fan0 can you tell? :grin:


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