# Strengths & Weaknesses of CSM Fast Attack Units?



## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

my current CSM army, which is more for fun then competetive, has no fast attack whatsoever, unless you count a Daemon prince with wings. 

i would like to add a Fast Attack unit to my warband, but i really have no idea how to properly use them. i think i have a handle on raptors (10 models=CC, 5 models w/melta's=Tank Hunting), but i am clueless as to Spawn and Bikers. 

any help from general tactica to how to manage point costs woulb be appreciated.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Hate to be rather brief with this but Spawn suck, bikers and raptors are expensive, but there are ways to use them. Some players have had success with raptors by running units of 5 with 2 meltaguns and going tank hunting. With bikers you'll want a champion and/or an icon, turbo boost up your opponent's flank and drop a greater daemon and/or lesser daemons on them. I don't use them myself, but this is most likely what you will hear from other players.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Spawn=fail
Raptors and bikes = cheap way to kill tanks.

Sorry but in a incredibly dumbed down form that is how it plays out when ever CSm fast attack is mentioned.

Other then that you can tailor raptors or bikes as a counter to sv5+ hords. (Mind you that is list tailoring, and such units will struggle against MeQ or MC's.). Still they can be fun to use, but bikes are about 5pts to much to be a effective unit, beyond very limited and well defined tactical roles.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Really in my opinion, the only one you would ever bother to use are Bikers with the following kit:

10 Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Nurgle, Champ w/ Power Fist

But for the amount of points that costs, your better off with Terminators in a Land Raider. If you seriously want to use a FA unit though, nothing says annoying like T6 bikers with a 3+ cover save


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## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

thanks for the imput. since i really like the Raptor models, i may try the five-man melta squad DS tactic some day. 

the sheer sneakyness of killing a LR then leaping back into the shadows seems just too good to pass up! :grin:


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

Ahriman's Loanshark said:


> thanks for the imput. since i really like the Raptor models, i may try the five-man melta squad DS tactic some day.
> 
> the sheer sneakyness of killing a LR then leaping back into the shadows seems just too good to pass up! :grin:


if by shadows you mean jumped by the entire enemy army then sure but once they are dropped pray they don't miss because they wont be there the following turn.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

In the past I have had success running a (6) man raptor squad w/ (2) meltas, IoS & champ w/ dual LC. Sole purpose was to run up behind a rhino of noise marines, once the gap has been closed the raptors jump over the rhino & melta an enemy transport. The two squads then combine & assault the guys inside. Used to work quite well, but I haven't really been playing my Chaos for the past year & the game has changed quite a bit w/ new guard, wolves & BA


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Ah the old raptor sniffing rhino, classic.


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

it sounds nice but nobody is going to just let you run a rhino covering that amount of points in such a squishy unit to just roll on up to thier army.

355pts minimum for your 2 squads there and thats with just 5 bolter NM's and no upgrades, the more points you pour into a combo like this the easier it is to counter it with more efficient units.

I'm a chaos player too and it pisses me off no end whenever i look at the CSM FA section.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

410 points for the 2 squads actually

(6) Raptors, champ w/ TLC, IoS (cuz Im' *fluffy* like that), 2 melta = 200 points
(6) NM, champ w/ DS, fist, rhino = 210

But depending on the rest of your list there's still plenty more threat. When I was running this I was running (2) assault-based NM squads riding close together, a winged WT prince, (2) defilers, a chosen melta squad, etc. 

It becomes a question of threat management. As each individual piece is able to lay a bit of hurt down on tanks & the squishy bits inside you have to pick your target. And because of the redundancy built into the list each piece (to an extent) is expendable. Lose my defilers? Oh well, at least your AT wasn't shooting my Rhinos; lose my prince? Oh well, he's a veritable bullet magnet designed to die; lose my raptors? Well, there's a bit of melta & counter assault I've lost, still not going to wreck my game-plan.

I prefer the mobile cover of the rhinos because it allows your raptors to be on the field to react as a counter charge incase your units get hit. If that rhino gets popped & the squad inside gets assaulted the raptors are their to add their swings in your turn, with their 18" assault radius they are able to react to help most of your troops as long as you maintain a tight formation. I don't like DS'ing them because (a) I have shit luck w/ reserve rolls & they end up coming in by default on turn 5... and (b) they scatter horribly. resulting in falling out of melta range.

OpTi, how about instead of pointing out how other ideas just plain wont work you suggest some of your own? It is very easy to say "well if you did that I'd just do this" it is more difficult to offer practicle solutions. I can confirm anecdotally that I have had much success with the tactic I have described.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Spawn=fail
> Raptors and bikes = cheap way to kill tanks.
> 
> Sorry but in a incredibly dumbed down form that is how it plays out when ever CSm fast attack is mentioned.


Thisx10

Seriously the only way to run raptors with any cost efficiency is by having five of them with two meltaguns and MAYBE an icon of glory. It's a cheap, quick way to remove a land raider.


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## Then there were none (Nov 20, 2010)

i know that this is a thread about fast attck/bikes/raptors yet i got to throw in my 2 cents.

yes raptors are fun and they jump da de da de da

chosen in a tank from the side.
you can get melta and it is a lot more tatic effective. 


just saying


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

You know for shits and giggles im just gonna start running 3 10 man raptor sqauds just so i can finally find a use for them. And one day i will run spawn just to confuse my oponent. I don;t even understand why they ar FA they are slower than x-maS.

You know what i have come to a new revalation i am no longer gonna try and run competetive lists im just run crazy stuff that is just fun to play. Why because i can.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Maybe because they have the potential to be faster then a rhino? (Not likely, but possible.)


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Play Nurgle Blight Drones, but only if you have at least one squad of Plague Marines, of course. Seriously, I recently chose to purchase Imperial Armour: Apocolypse 1 & 2 and I think this game could really use the regular care and attention that Forge World contributors are able to provide (as long as your IG opponent isn't throwing down squads of Manticore Platforms, that's some sort of mistake).


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## msteward (Jan 5, 2011)

On a crazy whim, I ran a Nurgle list yesterday which included included 2 5-man raptor squads with 2 melta guns and the IoN against a Mech-Guard list. Sounds stupid, I know.

First turn:One Raptor squad opens up the Vendetta he scouted in, opened it up with the melta guns and ahnialated the ten veterans inside in the following assaults. They couldn't wound me on 6+ S3 vs T5. the second squad advances.

Second turn: Each raptor squad opens up a chimera and assaults and destroys the units inside in the following assaults. Again, tough to kill anyone when you're wounding on 6+ and they have a 3+ armor save.

2 turns, 6 kill points


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well hard to kill for s3 crap soldiers, try that tactic against say berzerkers in a rhino, and you won't have many raptors left at the end of the day.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think that raptors can be used as jackals of the CSM warband. Picking on those who cannot defend themselves.Not just tank hunting since oblits do this cheaper and are more effective. 

I think raptors are best served as a 5-man squad with 2 flamers and possibly dual lightning claws for the champ. DS in near camping enemy troop units and burn them outta there!


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

step by step guide to bikes-
1)by some bikes
2)give them a champ and an icon
3)turn 1 turbo boost
4)cross you fingers that they survive
5) hope your reserve rolls hold out and unleash all your daemons/termies in to their front line
6)put back in army case

p.s i want to try the 10 man assault raptors (2xflamer, champ w/claws,MoK= 280 points) as ive seen this used a few times with some sucess. Anyway if blood angels can pull it off why cant we?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Supersonic Banana said:


> p.s i want to try the 10 man assault raptors (2xflamer, champ w/claws,MoK= 280 points) as ive seen this used a few times with some sucess. Anyway if blood angels can pull it off why cant we?


Because they cost less?
Can get FC+FNP?
Actually can DS without dying?
Are scoring?
Have more friends like them and thus unit saturation?
Have way better morale?


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

i think the problem with chaos fast attack is that the are not worth the points for what they offer, and you can get the same result more economically with other units.

the only build i see as potentially worthwhile is the tank busting raptor squad.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The only 2 ways I know that work well is 5 Raptors with 2 Meltas, or the however many Bikes with MoN and 2 meltas. Thats really it.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

bikes, 3 man with IoCG, mobile teleport homer for oblits & termicide. potentially give the squad 2 meltas.

in general CSM fast attack are terrible since the points can be better spent on something else.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

In other words if ever csm fast attack option was 2-3 points cheaper they would be feasible.....well 10 pts for spawn, but you get the picture.


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

i do think that raptors look pretty cool, but i just can't ever see them being a worthy addition to the field.

maybe that's just due to the type of list i like to use.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> In other words if ever csm fast attack option was 2-3 points cheaper they would be feasible.....well 10 pts for spawn, but you get the picture.


2-3 points on raptors would perhaps see them played a bit. 2-3 points on bikes wont cut it, were talking 8 pts here down to Codex Smurf pricing and they sure aint worth more.

Lets not even start about Spawns....


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Damn it I was trying to be conservative with my estimates


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Damn it I was trying to be conservative with my estimates


Half the prices and make spawn ten points(They're worth absolutely fuck all.) Then I might consider using them. Even then I'd only see the raptors being used to any effectiveness, and with the current metagame their targets would be razorbacks and chimeras.
If we cut the price of raptors by half(not gear) they'd average 60-70 a squad? And that's to get a chance to blow up a 60-70 point model. Albeit it could detonate a lr...

I'd say cut the fast attack points by a third, raptors at 18 pts sound about right. Spawn I still say at ten points. And that's just so people don't take fields of them. It's a fucking expensive and terrabad swarm that isn't weak to blasts.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

uh... raptors cost 20 pts right now... 2/3 of that would be 13. Or do I have a different Chaos codex than everyone else?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

clever handle said:


> uh... raptors cost 20 pts right now... 2/3 of that would be 13. Or do I have a different Chaos codex than everyone else?


if you read waffles (mmm waffles!) post you should read "raptors at 18 pts sounds about right". 1/3 less is probably referring to Bikes is my assumption, prolly a misstype. 

Spawns does not exist in my world with their current rules.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> The only 2 ways I know that work well is 5 Raptors with 2 Meltas, or the however many Bikes with MoN and 2 meltas. Thats really it.


Thats about the only true way i found for them but i still think that a raptor spam could yeild some decent results. I would love to run a nurgle bike or raptor spam I just don't have the moeny for that sorta thing and IMO the raptor models suck anyway.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Thats about the only true way i found for them but i still think that a raptor spam could yeild some decent results. I would love to run a nurgle bike or raptor spam I just don't have the moeny for that sorta thing and IMO the raptor models suck anyway.


This is like going to a party with dog shit cake. And when someone inquires in dismay why you brought a cake made out of dog shit to a party you remark with utter confidence:
"Don't worry! I brought a lot of it!"

tl;dr=Shit is shit, taking more shit doesn't not make it shit.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I have recently experimented to see if I could find ways to use these units that may not be abvious from math hammer, and have come up with the following.

10X2 units of havocs with flamers arn't bad against softer CC armies, but lack universale applicability like zerkers. 

3-4 bikes with 2Xmelta = great suprise melta unit that can hide from enemy fire (Behind rhino wall) and generates a 18" melta zone.

5X3 raptors rhino hoping equals the death of many mech/guard army.


5-6 raptors, or 4 bikes with a icon chaos glory = the linch pin of other psuedo competative units like terminators, GD, lesser daemons. 

....Spawn are still as usefull as cutting of your finger, and throwing it at your opponent.


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

since i don't really like any of the fast attack models, i think if i had to i would use

5 raptors with 2 meltas and a fist
3 bikers with 2 meltas.

i would use them as suicide tank busters or MC killers/wounders.


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

I never run any fast attack in my chaos army,mainly because they cost more than I care to spend on them and berserkers and plague marines are sooooo fun and effective. Just my opinion though, so take raptors or bikes if you feel you will have fun with them.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> ....Spawn are still as usefull as cutting of your finger, and throwing it at your opponent.


Using the logic previously found in this thread:
Maybe you aren't cutting off ENOUGH fingers to throw at your opponent?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Using the logic previously found in this thread:
> Maybe you aren't cutting off ENOUGH fingers to throw at your opponent?


Hahahaha so true its painfull:russianroulette:


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