# TWC versus Thunderwolf Lord



## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Hey guys!

Im curious what everyones thoughts are on this: Is it better to simply take a one or two TWC models instead of a suped up Thunderwolf lord. I mean, the lord tends to come out to 200- 275 points where a full cav group with hammer comes out to 280. The hammer cant be singled out where as the Lord can. The cav have more wounds, the same toughness, and roughly the same armor save most of the time. 
So why would you guys take a wolf lord on a mount over just cav?
I guess I ask because Im trying to squeeze the most out of a list of mine involving wolf guard and thunderwolves and im looking for insight and tips


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Buying a lord saves you the 100 points for a rune priest.
Why you spend over 200 points on him is beyond me though. Mount, weapon and storm shield should be enough. If you need more survivability buy a cheap fenrisian wolves squad for him. 
The thunderwolf squad is "more" durable, and usually hits harder.

I would take a squad over a lord, if not for the fact that taking a lord fills my obligatory hq choise, which makes it a possibility to take him instead


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Wolf lord + Thunderwolf + Runic Armour + Thunderhammer + Storm Shield + Wolf Talisman + Saga of the Bear. That comes to around 245pts


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> Wolf lord + Thunderwolf + Runic Armour + Thunderhammer + Storm Shield + Wolf Talisman + Saga of the Bear. That comes to around 245pts


actually its 265.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Either way, thats a ton of points for one model. Where as an entire TWC pack with a single wolf claw or Thunder Hammer is roughly the same


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Wolf lord + Thunderwolf + Runic Armour + Thunderhammer + Storm Shield + Wolf Talisman + Saga of the Bear. That comes to around 245pts


How about dropping saga of the bear, the talisman and the runic armour?
I don't see why you would need a 2+ save (if protected by fenrisians that is), nor why instant death should be a problem. The talisman is a point filler imo.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Big things only the Lord can do:

Hit at S6 I5 with a frost blade. Since you also get 6-7 attacks depending on wargear, that's a whole lot of damage output early in the combat round. (A TH is nice, but wastes one of the best parts of his statline)

He can take a Belt of Russ and keep a second weapon. Invulnerable save, plus shooting, plus the extra CC attack (assuming a frost blade).

WS6...also means the necklace isn't a must-have, but nice against tough characters. 

Fenrisian wolves are great cannon fodder for the whole unit.

Ld10, kind of a big deal when regular TWC are only Ld8 and can't be joined by Wolf Guard. 

As a build I like: Lord: Mount, Frost Blade, Belt of Russ, 2x Wolves, Wolftail. 200 points on the nose and has a little bit of everything. 

I'm not saying that's the only way to go, but it's a good way to take advantage of what the Lord does best. If all you want is maximum S10 attacks, just load up on power fist TWC. If you want a cheap mounted HQ, take a WGBL. The Lord is probably worth his points up until 225-240 range if you really load him up, after that probably not since he's not giving you any army-wide buffs like you would get out of a character like Logan.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> How about dropping saga of the bear, the talisman and the runic armour?
> I don't see why you would need a 2+ save (if protected by fenrisians that is), nor why instant death should be a problem. The talisman is a point filler imo.


Because he can be singled out in combat, so a force weapon will easily waste him, hence the talisman and saga of the bear. 2+ save saves him from bolter fire. otherwise he will die so easily to s4+ torrents



ohiocat110 said:


> Big things only the Lord can do:
> 
> Hit at S6 I5 with a frost blade. Since you also get 6-7 attacks depending on wargear, that's a whole lot of damage output early in the combat round. (A TH is nice, but wastes one of the best parts of his statline)
> decent, but S10 hammer is better, otherwise he's fucked vs walkers etc.
> ...


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Force weapon killing the lord. Are you even serious? Oh well, maybe someone had a bad day vs grey knights.
Next up, a 2+ save vs bolters. Why, would he ever, die, to bolter fire? He is either with thunderwolves, or, with 10 +- fenrisians (remember those cover saves).
And to sum it up, why would you ever waste the initiative you are paying for? The hammer is such a waste, go wolf claw and saga of the beastslayer and MCs are no problem anyway. If you really need that str 10 go with a regular twc imo. And if you can't stay clear of walkers or just shoot them (something the wolves are good at...), then you are doing something wrong.

The twc lord is good for clearing out infantry, and sometimes elite infantry (a couple terminators etc). He is not good at hunting down dedicated assault units and ICs like draigo etc. Dunno why you wouldn't just shoot them anyway.
But of course, if you really want the most expensive guy, just so you don't need to "think" about where to go with him, go ahead.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Fennie wolves do die to bolter fire for sure. But if taken on the lord and he joins cav then the average toughness is 5, so they more or less count as T5 too. Plus you would never take a bolter wound on them... unless something crazy is going on! Save them for the lascannon or plasma shots!

The 2 ways I've seen the lord run is for killing big things: hammer and saga of the bear, or everything else: frost blade or wolf claw and maybe saga of the blender. And of course everything else that goes on him: the mount, SS armor and something else.

I see the saga of the bear much like the necklace, not really NEEDED but most deffinately welcome when needed. Its like insurance, your gonna want it sometimes! Grey knights, librarians, scorcerers, str10 fire... fucking draigo, all good reasons to have the saga of the bear. Id rather spend 35 points than lose a 250 point model to a lucky shot

My feelins is to run him with a wolf claw, saga of the bear, and a stormshield. Throw him in a squad of 3 with a pair of shields and a hammer. That way my str 10 can't be singled out, I make use of the I5 and I still get my hitting power.

But is the general consensus that the wolf lord should be your compulsery HQ? I should specify, I'm looking to build a list at 1850, a Loganwing with Cav as the main punch. Yea, the gay-ass-weaker-than-greyhunters-wolfguard lol!


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Tossidin said:


> Force weapon killing the lord. Are you even serious? Oh well, maybe someone had a bad day vs grey knights.
> Next up, a 2+ save vs bolters. Why, would he ever, die, to bolter fire? He is either with thunderwolves, or, with 10 +- fenrisians (remember those cover saves).
> And to sum it up, why would you ever waste the initiative you are paying for? The hammer is such a waste, go wolf claw and saga of the beastslayer and MCs are no problem anyway. If you really need that str 10 go with a regular twc imo. And if you can't stay clear of walkers or just shoot them (something the wolves are good at...), then you are doing something wrong.
> 
> ...


Fenrisian wolves are shit as a squad, why anyone would take them competitively is beyond my knowledge. Saga of the bear means you can put saves that cause instant death onto the lord for wound allocation purposes and save a thunderwolf. the 2+ is a must. Lords die to bolter fire easier than a daemon prince, which is with tremendous ease. Also, see those venoms? yeah, they kill you. see those krak missiles? yeah, they kill you. see those psy dreads? they kill you. 

okay, so that is one part, next. I have yet to be beaten by grey knights in a tournament, so no, i haven't had a bad day. The hammer is a waste, now i have heard it all. What are you smoking? So, brilliant, you have a wolf claw, so i charge you with my dreadnought and now your HQ powerhouse is out of the game. Dont say they are easy to avoid either, because dreads tend to sit at the back, where your thunderwolves should be headed, so combat with them becomes inevitable against certain armies. Nice advice k:

Thunderwolf lords will beat the living piss out of draigo, he is not all that tough, and is certainly not a super combat character. He is a tarpit for some units, but all you need to do is force enough 3+ saves and he kicks the bucket easily.

Not "thinking" about where he can go is not the point. The point is that he is there to take on things that Space wolves generally have difficulty with. Paladins. Yup, they will splat. Mephiston, yep, he will die. You just use him to attack nasties that SW don't do well against, considering he is probably the best Combat HQ in the game aside from meph, kharn and abby and one or two named characters

But clearly you won't be convinced, and to be honest, i could't really give less of a fuck. I will give advice based on the most effective combination of options for any unit, if you don't want to listen to that and maybe improve your game that is fine by me


Now, back to the original poster

If you don't want a hammer on the lord, go for the frost axe, at least you are wounding MEQ on 2s, but beware, a canny opponent will kill charge the lord with a walker, forcing him to put his now only able to glance attacks onto it. No point on the blender saga either, few infantry units that cant kill him will live through your charge, so it is wasted. Please give him runic armour as well, it will honestly pay off every single time.

So: Saga of the Bear, Storm Shield, Runic Armour and Frost Axe. How does that sound?

I would definitely go for a thunderlord backed by the priest. Personally i don't rate loganwing all that much unless you go for full on missile spam, with 4 small units of WG, 1 termie with cyclone, 2 units of long fangs with missiles, 3 thundercav w/ 2x shields, 1x fist, 1 x meltabomb, thunderlord, logan. very few models, awful lot of points. if you dont go with logan you could get a really good core of hunters and bulk out on your thundercav.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

I dunno, it seems to me that you aren't even open for discussion since you have your opinion and it's right. Saying my opinion is bad cause walkers and force waepons wreck you just isn't valid, especially when it isn't true. Or ok, if you don't have firepower in your army then maybe.

The reason why I think yours is bad is because he costs insanely much. But then again, I like to have many tools in my army, and not to put most of my faith into one model. 
You say fenrisians are bad, and frankly they are, they are wound counters which make it impossible totarget the lord with shooting until you get rid of all of them. 
Why frost weapon instead of claw? reroll wounds on 3+ are better than wounding on 2+, especially against mcs.
But of course, if you want a beatstick unit, go ahead. I just don't see any reason to put that many points into one unit.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sorry, i had a bad day yesterday, college shit was piling up and i was in a pissy mood.

Anyway, i just see the thunderlord as a good unit to take down big things, because they army I use is generally lacking in really rock hard combat stuff. What i want from my lord is for him to be able to take on any other unit in the game and beat it down, which a tooled up lord can do.

I do see where you are coming from. If i were to run combat wolves, i would probably run one 250 pointer and one 190 pointer. But the way i see the thunderlord, for shooty wolf builds that it, is something with the speed to let you control the pace of the game and something that will beat down on other hard hitting combat units.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Hehe np 

Well then I see why you don't like my version, I guess we are running quite different armies.
I only use the twc as a troop cleaner, as I have enough shooting to kill off any enemy deathstar, without having to assault it. Actually, I usually run a wgbl on mount with only a wolf claw and saga of the beastslayer with 9 fenrisians. costs what, 220 points all together, and is a pain to shoot away when it is only going for your troops. 

If you want to combat everything then yes, your build would be better. I usually don't as I have the tools I need elsewhere


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

What would you guys consider the lowest point level to play a TWL and TWC together, what levels do you typically play them at?


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

1750 minimum. I wouldnt suggest using the unit but if you want to, that is the lowest point cost that lets you get the other units you need for the army to function as well as the wolf star (imo)


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

And just TWC alone? How much support (extra points in other things) do you need for them?


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

It all depends on what role you want them to have. I would use them to clear away infantry, taking away some of the heavy lifting the grey hunters have to do.
To do this you can go with nearly any configuration / number. Even a single thunderwolf with a wolf claw (70 points) will wreck troops, and if in cover it is really sad for the opponent to have to use missiles on him (if he isn't LoS blocked that is).
3 wolves with a hammer comes at around 170, 200 if you want the storm shield. They are much more durable, easier to use and can hunt vehicles / walkers, but cost more points.
You can also go with the single hammer/shield guy. 105 points of str 10 vehicle/infantry hunting. 

Since you don't need to spend insanely much points on them you can easily use them at nearly any point level, but myself I would use them at 1500+. They fill up a role you don't usually have that easy a time to fill, since grey hunters are your primary melta unit, while also infantry hunters.

Those are only my suggestions though


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I know it isn't quite the same thing but what about iron priests on a mount with wolves. Worth while? Good with a wolf lord? Better without?


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

The problem is that he has 1 wound. I could see it if you couldn't use fast attack or hq to get a thunderwolf, but since we normally can I would stay away from him.


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