# The Blood Angels as a Shooty Army



## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

My friends think blood angels should only be all about assault and close combat, but after seeing so many blood angels lists, I feel like they have become more of a shooty army. Hell, I know some people who would even say they are better as a shooty army. What do you guys think?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

It's not exactly a popular way to play them, but I'm trying to put together a more shooty BA list at the moment. I'm hoping to actually play with it in the next few weeks - I'll post up reports if/when I do.

:cyclops:


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## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

my feelings are, if you have an adequate amount of assault marines for a counter charge, a shooty gunline tactic blood angel army should work great.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Two words: Mobile Melta

Blood angels as a static fire list can work, but are wasting potential. We have 50 point multimelta attack bikes, you've got Veteran Assault and honour guard that can carry meltaguns and storm bolters (and regular bolters for that matter), you can do combat squads with a meltagun and a fist in transport and the heavy weapon and 4 expendable wounds hanging back.

Blood angels make absolutely killer mobile fire lists.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I must have missed something there: yet again (read your history books people!), Galahad baffles the Orc with transport rules.

Are you saying that with a tac squad using the 'combat squads' rule, not only can the two parts move seperately, but that one of the squads can embark in a transport? I mean logically, it makes sense, it's just another sort of movement, but I'd not picked up on that.

I really must go and read the BA 'codex' ('codeculus'? 'codecil'?) more closely...

Oh no I can't have a cyclops!


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

The DA's codex states that certain squads can be split down into combat squads and deployed separately. Therefore one combat squad can deploy 'outside' of a dedicated transport. Whether this applies to BA's I can't say, but if it's the same rules for combat squads as the DA's then Gal's correct.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that 1 - the rules are the same; and 2 - Galahad's correct. He generally is. It had never occurred to me is all - not played Dark Angels for many years, and not played BA from the new codex, so it hasn't really lodged in my brain. I know 'combat squads' over-rides 'unit coherence' but it hadn't occurred that it also over-rides 'all models in a unit must embark at the same time'... but now it's been pointed out, it's certainly logical and I should probably have noticed...

"embarrased emoticon"

Still no cyclops. Curses!


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

To clarify this point - and this is taken from the DA's codex - A squad split into Combat Squads are "treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point". This is the part that I think overrides the embarkation rules, since these rules specify "units". Also note that units held in reserve cannot be split in this way; Combat Squads _must_ be deployed at the start of the game.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

One thing leaps out at me from this, which also hadn't occurred (and I don't have a copy of BA to hand, or DA at all, so I'm gonna have to be guided by your collective wisdom here).

Presumably if they treated as 'seperate units' an independent character can join one combat squad and they can all get in a Razorback (ie, if you know you're going to be dividing the squad in two, you can give them a transport that won't take them all anyway)?

Is there anything to stop you fielding another Razorback for the other combat squad as well? This could potentially lead to up to 12 Razorbacks on the field with no FOC slots used - which is an awful lot of free lascannons...

Pining for my cyclops...


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

Red Orc said:


> One thing leaps out at me from this, which also hadn't occurred (and I don't have a copy of BA to hand, or DA at all, so I'm gonna have to be guided by your collective wisdom here).
> 
> Presumably if they treated as 'seperate units' an independent character can join one combat squad and they can all get in a Razorback (ie, if you know you're going to be dividing the squad in two, you can give them a transport that won't take them all anyway)?
> 
> ...


No, I don't think so. Dedicated transports (DT's) are one per unit, and you write the ten man up at the start before deployment and allocate transport at that time. Squads are split up into CS's during deployment so you can't give them a DT then. They are only treated as individual units from the moment of deployment.

HTH


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

The characters joining a combat squad in a Razorback is fine Red Orc.
As you buy the transports before splitting into combat squads, i reckon its a no to the second part as you can only buy the one.

You could buy the HQ choice a Razorback of his own (I think) but im not sure how that would work if he joined a unit ,as you can only use your own transports unless they are a Heavy Support choice one or a character that has joined the unit and is hitching a lift in theirs.

So I think that the only way to have two combat squads with transports is one with a Razorback or Rhino of their own that a character can then join and the other half with a Heavy Support Landraider that a second character could join.


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## Slade (Sep 7, 2007)

Yeah, I think that's correct. According to the rule book, units may not be spread around in different transports, but as CS's are treated as separate units from the moment of deployment you could place one CS in a dedicated with character and the other in a HS slot choice with character.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ok, here's the breakdown.

You have one Tactical Squad (this is the slot it takes on your FOC)
That Tactical Squad may have *A* Drop Pod, Rhino or Razorback as a dedicated transport. (Only one transport). There is no 'if the squad is under X members take this' restrictions. A 10 man squad may have a razorback.

Now, during deployment you may either field the squad as a whole or split it into two combat squads (if you are holding in reserve you have to keep the squad whole). If you keep it whole your Razorback is now, essentially, a mobile gun platform. You cannot embark because the unit will not fit.

However, if you break into combat squads when you deploy then you may give the transport to ONE of those units. It becomes the dedicated transport of that unit (since the dedicated transport rules refer to a unit rather than a squad or FoC entry). Those 5 models may embark or disembark, and may even be joined by an IC pre-deployment (assuming you're not doing escalation). The other 5 men in the squad are not only on foot, but may not use the razorback even when it's empty.

So you leave your lascannon (or more likely, missile launcher) with his 4 expendable wounds and then mount up your meltagun and powerfist and go kick some ass.

And no, ICs cannot buy their own razorbacks and the like. But they can ride with other squads (even combat squads)


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

It did seem too good to be true that you could field 12 Laserback tank-lites with no FOC slots used. But I see the point about having to choose the transport before deployment, which is then the stage where the squad becomes 2 units.

Thanks for the clarification guys.

'Cyclops? What cyclops?'


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## Malchek (Apr 4, 2007)

At the X Legion tactica tournament 02 Mike Locke took a mechanised BA army..... As the organiser I read the army list with some disbelief as it was the most atypical BA army I've ever seen and I thought it would sink..... So you can imagine my surprise when he came in 3rd place with a number of notable victories under his belt and a whopping great VP difference! I think it might be true that BA's are now just as potent (and maybe even more so..?) shooting as they are hacking people to death up close and personal. Of course having a death company to back up the tanks and transports helps but it really was a brutal list!

If I remember correctly he had a pred, Baal pred, vindi, 2 rhinos with combat squads in them (one with an attached commander I think) small death company, a couple of small assault squads, a couple of attack bikes and 2 dreads in drop pods.... absolutely awesome!

Malchek


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

Call me a purist, but making BA a shooty army makes me cry . But, what can you do .

BTW, since this codex came in a White Dwarf and not like the others, can i refuse to use them ina tourny since its not a real codex .


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It is a real codex.
The fact it says "OFFICIAL CODEX" on it means its well, an official codex.

If you want to play BA you *must* use the new codex (which is available online as well).
the 3rd edition codex is not an option, no more than Angels of Death was back in 3rd ed.

And if you want "purist" then get yourself a bunch of big 10-man tactical and dev squads, a Death Company that runs around on foot, and or two Assault squads. That's the way the armies were set up back in Angels of Death.

How "pure" do you want to go?

Lists, playstyle and fluff change with every new edition.


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

Galahad said:


> It is a real codex.
> The fact it says "OFFICIAL CODEX" on it means its well, an official codex.
> 
> If you want to play BA you *must* use the new codex (which is available online as well).
> ...



I know man, im just having fun . I plan to look through the codex and read it more so that i can fully understand the army. At first glance it looks like a nerf, but im sure there is some good in the codex . Does suck that they didnt release it in stores like DA or BT, and that i have to print it out.... But it is free so :laugh:

Oh and quick question, Now the DC that comes from squads, it is not actually taken from the squad like before, but instead when you get a Tactical Squad you get one DC for free. Did i read that right :O


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

We actually came out of it with a fairly good list.
It just takes some real skill to come out with a powerful army, and our model count is going to be low, so you need to know how to play with small armies, moreso than usual for SM.

I will say that we came out a bit less powerful, but remember that, by and large, BA were were overpowered somewhat to begin with. Free Furious Charge for an assault based army was amazing. But just because we;re less powerful doesn;t mean they;re still not a very powerful list, if built correctly.

And yes, you get a 'free' Death company model for each squad you buy (Terminators, VAS, assault squad, tacs, devs, but not bikes, attack bikes, HG or scouts), but most of our squads also cost between 15-25 points more, because of that 'free' DC.

So unless you take terminators (which do give a free DC that;s actually free) or Assault Squads (they're only 15 points more than normal, so it's half-price for the DC member) you're buying a mandatory squad of 25 point models (30 points if you want JPs)

But it's a really badass squad, and they're worth the points. You're just saddled with having to buy them whether you want it or not. (Technically you could opt not to field a DC, but you're still paying extra for the minis)


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## Delta7 (Nov 22, 2007)

Hey All,

Apologies for any 'off topic' but this thread caught my eye for obvious reasons... 

Anyhoo, the BA Mod for dow will feature a twin branching system currently labelled as the 'Might' or 'Wings' of Sanguinius...while keeping the general doctrine of assault, we've tried to give two ways of playing the Blood Angels...

The 'Might of Sanguinius' features a shooty, Vehicle & heavy weapon accented, footslogging troop selection, headed by Captain Tycho...

While the 'Wings of Sanguinius' features a more...hmmm...purist approach of Death from Above, Jumppack's ariel assault and is headed by Commander Dante...

I really hope this to be a big feature of the Mod, giving the player an oppertunity to tailor his dow army to his enemy... 

Unfortunately for us, we began the Mod three years ago, and initial plans were nearing completion when GW released the new codex...its not a real problem with dow, and I'm glad the update changed only a few names & abilities...

Reading through this thread gives me the confidence to say that we are on course to achieve the mission statement, to bring a better representation of the Blood Angels Chapter into the Dawn of War games community!

Again, apologies for the hijack...carry on!

Cheers,


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Back to the subject of transports and combat squads, there is one thing that totally messes this up: Escalation. You simply can't afford to use this in omega level games.

Not only does the transport put both combat squads in reserve in escalation games, it prevents them from using the combat squad rules if they are in reserve. So you end up with your shooty squad and your melee squad joined at the hip and running onto the board with a transport they can't even fit into. This sucks a great deal.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yet another reason to ban those shitty Escalation rules ;-)


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Deathpsyker said:


> My friends think blood angels should only be all about assault and close combat, but after seeing so many blood angels lists, I feel like they have become more of a shooty army. Hell, I know some people who would even say they are better as a shooty army. What do you guys think?


I absolutely agree. I have crafted a mechanized/gunline force with lots of mobility, fast units a great countercharge unti and lots of shots... heres my 1750 pt list.


I love the combat squads rules, but couldn't bring myself to play DA  NO offence to dedicated DA players, but the raven wing rules and squad organization are far too clunky for me. I like my attack bikes straight up, thank you...

I use it to represent my Heresy-Era Imperial Fist Legion 19th Battle Company just as it was reorganizing in the aftermath of Horus' defeat.

For example, I use a mounted Missile Launcher Dev squad that I often split up into combat squads with all the heavy weapons deploying in Escalation and the power weapon sgt coming in with bolter guys thru reserves.

I've been experimenting with heavy bolters on my attack bikes instead of multi-meltas to see how effective they can be as anti-tank units...

Almost every vehicle out there has very poor rear armour (AV10), and a squad of two bikes can turbo boost and sneak up right behind one.

Thats 6 shots that need 5's to glance, and 4 shots rapidfiring bolters that need 6 to glance. 

I love HB attack bikes, I see them as a superior alternative to heavy bolter dev squads. You can turboboost, flush out skulkers, and tie up units if need be....

heres the list, its a slight variation I am trying after scraping some pts to swap turrets on my predator to get some more AT punch:

TROOPS:570

Tactical Squad Apollo [10] 
+ Plasma Gun 
+ Plasma Pistol/Power Fist 
[Vet. Sgt. Hermes] 
+ "Gunship" Rhino 
[Pintle Storm Bolter] ==


Tactical Squad Bodo [10] -
+ Melta Gun 
+ Plasma Pistol/Power Fist 
[ Vet. Sgt Durant]
+ "Vanilla Assault" Rhino 
[1x Storm Bolter] ==	


HEAVY SUPPORT:780


Devastator Squad Darius [10] 
+ 4x Rocket Launchers 
+ BP/CCW 
[Vet.Sgt. Justinius]
+ "GS" Rhino 
[2x StormBolter] ==



Devastator Squad Fortescu [10] 
+ 4x Lascannons 
+BP/CCW 
[Vet. Sgt.Vladimir Pugh]
== 


Predator Annihilator "Warspite" 
[Hvy Bolters, Dozer Blade]


FAST ATTACK:225

1x Landspeeder "Flame-Nado"	75pts
[Heavy Bolter, Hvy Flamer]

2x Attack Bikes [Heavy Bolters]	100pts

1x Attack Bike [Heavy Bolters] 50pts

ELITES:55



Death Company Squad Omega [4+1]-30 -
+ 5x Jump-packs -25
==
55pts


HEADQUARTERS:125

Chief Iterator-Chaplain Nikolia Molotov

[counts as Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost]

125pts
======================================1750
1750 pts

Thanks to combat squads, I feel this army is flexible, manuevreable and well rounded for all comers.

I have a hard hitting AT/ anti-MEQ firebase with combat squad speedbump, a fast contingent of bikes and speeder that pumps out lots of shots, two squads of tacticals built for firefights and objective taking, and a small but devastating countercharge/ Daemon-Prince Pulping unit that can almost always get the furious charge...


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Someguy said:


> Back to the subject of transports and combat squads, there is one thing that totally messes this up: Escalation. You simply can't afford to use this in omega level games.
> 
> Not only does the transport put both combat squads in reserve in escalation games, it prevents them from using the combat squad rules if they are in reserve. So you end up with your shooty squad and your melee squad joined at the hip and running onto the board with a transport they can't even fit into. This sucks a great deal.


Well, 40k v.50 should be out by end of summer, keep those fingers crossed...


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## Terminator (Nov 17, 2007)

If you want to go completely against the entire basis of Blood Angel combat philosophy, then yes, a shooty army would be a good choice. Because that's what a Blood Angel would do. :laugh:

There's nothing wrong with having fire support in any assault army, but Blood Angels have always preferred close-quarters fighting.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Terminator said:


> If you want to go completely against the entire basis of Blood Angel combat philosophy, then yes, a shooty army would be a good choice. Because that's what a Blood Angel would do. :laugh:
> 
> There's nothing wrong with having fire support in any assault army, but Blood Angels have always preferred close-quarters fighting.



:laugh:Maybe you should actually read my post to find I play IMPERIAL FISTS.

Maybe you should look at my Avatar.

Maybe you should look under that where it says: "Main Army":laugh:

AGAIN, I am representing a reduced battle company right after the the grinding Iron Cage ambush sprung by the Iron Warriors.

I like idea of going back to codex organization with combat squads and wanted to represent a couple of the veterans going a bit berserk after watching so many of their comrades die (Death Company) 

GW has made it abundantly clear that you can use various lists for your own forces as long as they are modelled to represent their stats and equipment. This started happening with the DA codex.

We might be able to laugh WITH you (instead of AT you )for your witty repartee if you would bother to actually read and comprehend posts before making an opinion upon them...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Terminator, see if you can find a copy of Angels of Death.
Blood Angels have been as Shooty as any other chapter for decades. Blood Angels as a solely CC army is a stereotype stemming mostly from the 3rd edition codex, which handed out furious charge and made our heavy weapons unreliable.

BA do like close combat, and they can field a lot of jump packs...but they're not now, nor have they ever really been an all-out CC army. Through every edition the chapter has been almost entirely Codex, with the exception of a couple of unique units (vets and command squads with JPs, Furiosos and Baals, and the DC).

The Blood Angels combat philosophy has *always* been one of balanced battle companies with lots of heavy support, a solid troops core and a strong fast attack/close combat element. It just so happens that in the current codex our best assault units are also some of our best shooting units (the Veteran Assault Squad and Honour Guard). Likewise, our best Fast Attack choice is a good shooting unit (attack bike)

So if you;re a good, balanced BA player you;re going to want a strong assault core (VAS and/or HG, along with a Death Company), a good Fast Attack wing (Attack Bikes), and some solid troops (classic mounted tacticals)

Now if you give those vet squads a pair of meltaguns to go along with their powerfist(s), equip those attack bikes with multimeltas, and split those tacticals into a stationary heavy gun team and a mounted close-combat squad (Vet with a powerfist and either a meltagun, or put your special weapon in the stationary team with the heavy and give him a plasgun), and back the whole thing up with some Baals and/or a Devastator squad (split via combat squads so that they can fire at different targets)

Well, suddenly you find yourself ewith a balananced list, more capable in assault than most codex chapters...that also happens to be shooty as all hell. The only difference is that instead of masses of las/plas teams, our shooty superiority is all in form of close-range mobile melta.

The current BA list is fantastic for making a close-range run-and-gun list, and the combination of close range, built-in assault capability, and hellish firepower more than fits the BA combat philosophy. 

I suggest you research the chapter before claiming to know their philosophy and capabilities.

You don;t see me commenting on Ultramarines ;-)


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## Demenhoth (Dec 30, 2007)

The part where you can have small combat squads and a DC for each makes it so if you want to have shooty crap you can and then you can still have a good pile of assault craps.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

You don't get a DC for each combat squad...

You get a DC for the Tactical (or assault, or dev, or termie or vet) squad itself. Whether you deploy that squad as one big squad or two combat squads has no impact on the number of DC marines you get.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> You don't get a DC for each combat squad...
> 
> You get a DC for the Tactical (or assault, or dev, or termie or vet) squad itself. Whether you deploy that squad as one big squad or two combat squads has no impact on the number of DC marines you get.


I think what he meant is that you're able to take 5 man Squads and get a DC member out of the deal.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

If that;s the case then I apologize for the unnecessary explanation of the rules. But the use of the term 'combat squads' made me think he was referring to breaking a big squad down into two combat squads.

But if you plan to load up your DC by taking a bunch of 5-man tactical squads, it;s not exactly the most practical of ideas.

You can buy a DC model for 25 points, or get one 'free' by buying a 5-man tac squad...that just happens to cost 25 points more than it should. Meanwhile you;re also paying for a second veteran sarge (+15) and you are denying yourself a heavy weapon option.

Though, buying several small assault squads is a fairly cost-effective solution since they give you a discount on the DC model (assault squads only cost 15 more than normal), but then you;re stuck with a lot of small assault units


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## CaptainBailean (Feb 20, 2008)

im just gonna go ahead and say that the blood angels are a close combat army. if you want to have a shooty space marine army that is red, then make up your own. theres a reason the blood angels have a supplementary codex


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

So why do you think that, Cap?
We've had about three pages of debate a couple months back in this thread where people have explained their opinions for and against the concept. What is it about blood angels using their mobility and firepower that you think makes them a poor choice for shooting?

Also, please avoid digging up old threads unless you have something more to contribute. It's good that you're looking through the archives, but I'd rather not have new threads bumped off unless you've got something substantial to add to an old one like this.


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