# Magnus Loyal or Disloyal?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I just wanted to know what people think about the Thousand Sons Legion and Magnus the Red during the Heresy. At least for me, I thought them to be a legion who was a victim to the emperor's stupidity. I mean they were just warning the emperor about horus' betrayel right?

Well just wanted you all to think about what you thought about the Thousand Sons Legion before actually showing a glimpse of what they actually did to piss off the emperor. What they did was far worse than one could imagine. It actually got me to change my attitude towards their legion. In fact they are basically the whole reason why chaos is about to whip out the empyream.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor

skip to the Heresy part. thought the rest of it is indeed fascinating on how the emperor is actually a thousand shamans who fused up.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Also see http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malcador_(Character)

This kind of got me thinking into a prediction. What if the space wolves just meant to bring magnus to the golden throne, but Magnus had purposley messed up the webway to keep the emperor from fighting. So instead of comming to terra they fired onto the wolves, and got pwned for doing so. If so I don't feel bad for magnus and his disgusting legion.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

i think the books prospero burns and a thousand sons will tell alot and after hearing what abnett said it looks like the thousand sons were victims


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

Well, my view is that they were a.) victims of the Emperor's paranoia, b.) victims of the machinations of Chaos and c.) victims of their own stupidity. 

To elaborate, the Emperor was pretty damn paranoid about Chaos gods it seems. So, as soon as Magnus did something that hinted at their influence he assumed the worse. 

On the other hand, seriously, the most powerful and most experiences psyker ever tells you "no sorcery" and what do Thousand Sons do? They practice it naturally!

And Horus gleefully used the situation to his benefits. 

So, on the whole, I'd say all the involved parties were to blame.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In my view the Emperor was not at all to blame for the Burning of Prospero or the Damnation of the Thousand Sons Legion. The blame lay soley at Magnus' feet.

The Emperor had shared his greatest secrets with Magnus upon discovering him, Magnus was the only Primarch the Emperor confided in regarding the true extent of the danger of the warp. Magnus (already knowing such things and feigning shock) agreed to heed the Emperor's warnings, but continued the 'dark arts' anyway. The situation escalated during the Great Crusade and thus the Council of Nikaea was called. Magnus again was warned of the dangers, but again refused to heed the Emperor's warnings. Remember Sorcery inevitably corrupts.

When Magnus sent the sorcerous warning to the Emperor, it confirmed that Magnus was corrupted. It also threatened to destroy the entire Imperium, by allowing Daemons to flood the Imperial Webway and reach as far as the Imperial Dungeon. (In fact its perfectly plausable that Tzeentch manipulated Magnus into sending the warning in the first place, in order to mess up the Emperor's plans and attempt to bring down the Imperium in one fell swoop)

Im not saying that Magnus was a willing traitor. He percieved himself as a loyalist right up until the end. He thought he could master the warp for the good of mankind, but it only ended in corruption. Also according to the collected visions, the Emperor did intend to sit Magnus on the Golden Throne until a solution could be established, but his utter corruption made this impossible.

The Emperor was perfectly justified in sending the Wolves to burn Prospero to the ground, and lenient if he indeed ordered Magnus captured not killed. Prospero (and its cities full of sorcerous and dangerous libraries/material) needed destroying in order to safeguard the Imperium and prevent the corruption from spreading. 

The Thousand Sons can easily be described and viewed as victims, after all they did what they did with the intention of helping the Emperor and saving the Imperium. But no where else in 40k is this phrase more appropriate; "The Road to Hell, is paved with Good Intentions"


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

The Thousand Sons are victims. It wasn't until after Prospero was burning and Leman broke Magnus' back did they Beseech Tzeentch for help. Magnus was loyal up until that point. He did not knowingly cause the Imperial Palace to flood with Daemons; That was done as an accident. Arguably, Thousand Sons would still be loyalist today if Horus hadn't manipulated Russ by changing his orders. 

If you read into the fluff, Horus tells Russ that the Emperor changed his mind and Magnus was not to be captured, he was to be killed. Magnus did not fire upon the Wolves first. He was fully ready to submit to the Emperor's judgement, not to be killed by Russ. The only crime Magnus is guilty of is loving his Legion and actually trying to save the Imperium of Man.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

khornateemperor said:


> The Thousand Sons are victims. It wasn't until after Prospero was burning and Leman broke Magnus' back did they Beseech Tzeentch for help.


They practised Sorcery. Tzeentch is likely to have been involved from the begining in some subtle way. In fact the Collected Visions goes as far as to strongly imply that Tzeentch was involved from the beginning.

After all, what are the chances that Magnus would land on a planet of exiled sorcerers/psykers? Where instead of being killed as a mutant he was raised as one of them. I sense the Hand of Tzeentch.



khornateemperor said:


> Magnus was loyal up until that point. He did not knowingly cause the Imperial Palace to flood with Daemons; That was done as an accident. Arguably, Thousand Sons would still be loyalist today if Horus hadn't manipulated Russ by changing his orders.


Magnus percieved himself as loyal up until that point yes. Regardless though he disobeyed the Emperor's direct command twice, and threatened the Imperium. The consequences of his Sorcerous warning are testament to the dangers of sorcery.



khornateemperor said:


> If you read into the fluff, Horus tells Russ that the Emperor changed his mind and Magnus was not to be captured, he was to be killed. Magnus did not fire upon the Wolves first.


That is what is implied. Though I questioned Grahman McNeil about it, and he simply told me to "Read the passage again". Perhaps implying that the Emperor had something to do with actually ordering the destruction of Prospero and the attempted killing of Magnus, as initial fluff stated. I guess we'll see when the duology is released.



khornateemperor said:


> The only crime Magnus is guilty of is loving his Legion and actually trying to save the Imperium of Man.


And disobeying the Emperor. (Something which is punishable by death in usual circumstances)
And practising an art which is inherently dangerous and always inevitably corrupts, and which also resulted in the near collapse of the entire Imperium.

Yes he did what he did because he believed it was for the betterment of the Imperium, but as I said before, "The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions."


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## Shield of Faith (Dec 18, 2009)

Treachery is similar to the death; once you passed the line, you cannot go back. Magnus was a traitor. Otherwise, he would remain loyal until his end.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Can I just point out, The Big E only sent the Space wolves to bring Magnus to Terra to be punished. Horus told Leman Russ to burn Prospero (and he carried the same authority as the Emperor, and Leman Russ didn't know of his treachery). The Thousand sons only defended themselves, the Space wolves fired the first shots and the Thousand Sons were completely unprepared. Also, I don't think you can blame Magnus for turning to Tzeentch, he and his legion were going to die, his father had forsaken him and he was an outcast of the Imperium, what else could he have done. Also, Horus admits, in Galaxy in Flames (I believe, but I can't quote it!), that he sends the Space Wolves to destroy Magnus because he was one of THE most powerful loyalist Primarchs and could potentially fault his plans. In fact, Horus himself was surprised when he hears that Prospero had burnt, and Magnus now worked for Chaos! So really, he was only trying to help the Imperium and was loyal until the thing he was loyal to betrayed him, like so many other "traitors" like him (Soul Drinkers chapter, Night Haunter, Lorgar, the list goes on...). However, like all people who do betray/are betrayed by the Imperium, there is no turning back and do eventually become true traitors.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

No one wakes up and thinks 'hmm I feel like a bout of betrayal before breakfast this morning'- you don't turn traitor just cause, inevitably you justify it to yourself as being the best route to take.

In Magnus' case I completely fall into CotE's camp, he was given the opportunity (twice) to reform and still continued down the path of corruption because he was deluded enough to believe he could master an elemental force that had been making everyone else it's bitch for eons.
He had his chance to be a dutiful son and instead became a traitor to all that the Imperium stood for, an example of how his message would relate in the real world could be;

I've just found out your brother has been in an accident, whilst on my way to inform your parents I down a bottle of vodka and end up crashing through your house killing your dad and causing a fire that threatens to take out the neighbourhood- but hey at least I managed to tell your mum that little jimmy was hurt, right?
-Next time pick up the god damn phone!

My point being that Magnus could have gone about things in a completely different way but took the 'dick' road instead.


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

How could he have gone a different way? There was no way to contact Terra other than the way he did. And, if sorcery inevitable corrupts all who use it, what about The Big E? Fluff also states that the Emp also stole some of the Chaos Gods power in the creation of the Primarchs, so yes Tzeentch did have a hand in it, giving them the power to change the universe. So did Nurgle, their utter immunity to countless diseases. And Khorne, their strength and brutality. I'm not saying that Tzeentch or any of the Gods didn't have a hand in where the babies landed, because The Great Changer of Ways most definitely would have sent them to where they would do the most harm in the future; All I'm saying is that Magnus wass deprived of the chance of truly showing his loyalty by the Machinations of Horus.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Actually according to fluff Magnus wasn't *sure* if he'd be able to contact the Emperor through any means other than sorcery, he didn't even try the other methods just immediately went to conjuring in an attempt to not only warn his Father but also prove his studies were useful.

It was Erebus who said that the Emperor leeched some of the power of the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs, now whilst some of his statements were true that one in particular is one I personally would stick under the title of 'Grade-A Bullshit'. If the Emperor had corrupted the Primarchs intentionally during their creation you'd imagine he'd take more efforts to see they didn't fall further.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

From what little I know of Magnus and the other primarchs, I've always seen him as a well-intentioned extremist in a universe where extremism lead to very bad consequences. He took actions that had detrimental effects and inevitably reaped what he sowed.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Magnus was loyal up to the very point when he swore loyalty to Tzeentch after Leman Russ broke his back. Before that he was one of the most loyal Primarchs, he risked everything to try and warn the Emperor, who didn't even listen, tried to master the Warp so that man need not fear it, impossible but he did try, and his legion were the most disciplined in their training of sorcery and psykers, Chaos was repulsive to them.

In my view while Magnus can be blamed for some events of the Horus Heresy, mainly the Daemon invasion of the Golden palace, but he did not know that would happen, but the Emperor should have listened to him, and because he did not he lost a chance to deal with Horus and stop the heresy in its tracks.

Plus sending Russ and the Wolves to burn Prospero and kill Magnus was massively unjust and excessive, at that point the Emperor was no better then the fanatics who spill blood in his name in the 41st millennium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Magnus was loyal up to the very point when he swore loyalty to Tzeentch after Leman Russ broke his back. Before that he was one of the most loyal Primarchs, he risked everything to try and warn the Emperor, who didn't even listen, tried to master the Warp so that man need not fear it, impossible but he did try, and his legion were the most disciplined in their training of sorcery and psykers, Chaos was repulsive to them.


I'll say this again. Yes he percieved himself as loyal, but doesn't disobeying the Emperor's direct command twice and almost trashing the entire Imperium kinda make you a traitor? Intentional or not. He was loyal enough to the Emperor yes, perhaps even one of the most loyal primarchs, but his methods meant that he deserved death and his world and legion deserved burning.



Lord of the Night said:


> In my view while Magnus can be blamed for some events of the Horus Heresy, mainly the Daemon invasion of the Golden palace, but he did not know that would happen


Ignorance is no excuse.



Lord of the Night said:


> but the Emperor should have listened to him, and because he did not he lost a chance to deal with Horus and stop the heresy in its tracks.


I think we've discussed this in another thread, but as I've previously explained. The Emperor would have had to have abandoned all logic and reason in order to even contemplate taking the contents of Magnus' 'warning' seriously.



Lord of the Night said:


> Plus sending Russ and the Wolves to burn Prospero and kill Magnus was massively unjust and excessive, at that point the Emperor was no better then the fanatics who spill blood in his name in the 41st millennium.


Hardly. Magnus directly disobeyed the Emperor twice on a matter of grave importance. He threatened the Emperor's delicate plans and indeed the entire Imperium, he deserved death, and Prospero deserved burning. The tradegy of the Thousand Sons isn't the Burning of Prospero (and what some people percieve of as the Emperor betraying Magnus) - its actually the fact that Magnus was naive and actually arrogant enough to lead his glorious legion down the path of corruption.

Magnus was a fantastic individual, perhaps one of the most loyal Primarchs, his legion was likely the most sophisticated and Magnus shared the Emperor's intimate knowledge regarding the Warp. If only he had simply obeyed the Emperor, the galaxy would be a much brighter place in M41.



khornateemperor said:


> All I'm saying is that Magnus wass deprived of the chance of truly showing his loyalty by the Machinations of Horus.


Magnus had many chances to prove his loyalty, even before Nikaea. If he didn't send the Sorcerous warning to Terra, the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons would have been able to confront Horus during the Heresy.

In fact he proved his disloyalty by sending the Sorcerous warning.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'll say this again. Yes he percieved himself as loyal, but doesn't disobeying the Emperor's direct command twice and almost trashing the entire Imperium kinda make you a traitor? Intentional or not. He was loyal enough to the Emperor yes, perhaps even one of the most loyal primarchs, but his methods meant that he deserved death and his world and legion deserved burning.


Simply disobeying an order does not make you a traitor. Angron disobeyed him by continuing the techno-upgrades on his marines and he didn't betray him right then, Fulgrim disobeyed him by allowing Fabius to work on new upgrades for the marines and didn't betray him right then. Leman Russ disobeyed him by not recognizing his authority but did not betray him.

Treachery and disobedience are very different things. Magnus was disobedient, no question, but he was no traitor until the very end. His methods did not deserve death, censure and punishment yes but death was extreme. Plus his legion were loyal and disciplined, very disciplined. They should have stopped practising sorcery but the Emperor condemned men who would have died for him and the Imperium to death merely because they followed their Primarch.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ignorance is no excuse.


Perhaps but Magnus was well-versed in the warp. If he did not forsee that then even the Emperor wouldn't have.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think we've discussed this in another thread, but as I've previously explained. The Emperor would have had to have abandoned all logic and reason in order to even contemplate taking the contents of Magnus' 'warning' seriously.


The Emperor didn't even listen to Magnus, he just cut him off after saying he had betrayed him. If he had at least heard Magnus out, and realized he was being truthful, then the Heresy might have been averted. Plus the Emperor had a special bond with Magnus, maybe even more so then Horus, he should have recognized that his son was being truthful.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Hardly. Magnus directly disobeyed the Emperor twice on a matter of grave importance. He threatened the Emperor's delicate plans and indeed the entire Imperium, he deserved death, and Prospero deserved burning. The tradegy of the Thousand Sons isn't the Burning of Prospero (and what some people percieve of as the Emperor betraying Magnus) - its actually the fact that Magnus was naive and actually arrogant enough to lead his glorious legion down the path of corruption.


Magnus disobeyed the Emperor and tried to help by mastering the warp. The tragedy of the Thousand Sons is their unnecessary deaths and the fact that they had to turn to Chaos, the thing they despised and trained their entire lives to keep at bay, just to survive. The Emperor did betray Magnus by telling Russ, who also betrayed Magnus and the brotherhood of the Primarchs by attacking him, to kill Magnus and his legion and destroy Prospero.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Magnus was a fantastic individual, perhaps one of the most loyal Primarchs, his legion was likely the most sophisticated and Magnus shared the Emperor's intimate knowledge regarding the Warp. If only he had simply obeyed the Emperor, the galaxy would be a much brighter place in M41.


If the Emperor had listened to Magnus then the galaxy wouldn't be utterly doomed.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

We could go round in circles forever with the whole 'If the Emperor had listened' angle, but really if Magnus had listened to the Emperor then none of this would have come about (or it's effects would have been greatly lessened)- he was aware of the corrupting influence and still continued despite the fact even his father, undoubtedly the most powerful psyker there ever was or will be, with almost limitless experience being unable to even begin to master chaos.

Magnus didn't simply disobey, he threatened humanity itself with his actions.
Yes some of the other Primarchs disobeyed him to some extent but until the Heresy itself, nothing like to the extent that Magnus did- Angron disobeyed its true but eventually he would have been censured (Guilliman was going to bring his actions before the Emperor but then the Heresy broke out rendering Roboute's suspicions to be vastly underestimated). 

-The Emperor never told Fulgrim not to allow experimentation on the geneseed to come about, so thats not really a case of being disobedient-


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Two things:
1. Did no one hear me say that the Emperor did want Leman Russ to kill Magnus and the Thousand Sons, he just wanted Magnus and his legion brought back to Terra!
2. Wasn't the mastery of the warp (which was Magnus' aim) the same as what the Emperor was trying to do? So how does Magnus doing the same thing his father was make him a traitor?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Emperor wasn't trying to master the warp, he was trying to free humanity from it's reliance on the use of immaterium- entirely different from Magnus' projects.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> We could go round in circles forever with the whole 'If the Emperor had listened' angle, but really if Magnus had listened to the Emperor then none of this would have come about (or it's effects would have been greatly lessened)- he was aware of the corrupting influence and still continued despite the fact even his father, undoubtedly the most powerful psyker there ever was or will be, with almost limitless experience being unable to even begin to master chaos.
> 
> Magnus didn't simply disobey, he threatened humanity itself with his actions.
> Yes some of the other Primarchs disobeyed him to some extent but until the Heresy itself, nothing like to the extent that Magnus did- Angron disobeyed its true but eventually he would have been censured (Guilliman was going to bring his actions before the Emperor but then the Heresy broke out rendering Roboute's suspicions to be vastly underestimated).
> ...


Exactly. The Emperor could have abandoned logic & reason and listened to the corrupted Magnus' 'warning' - or... Magnus could have just listened to his father. 



Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor did betray Magnus by telling Russ, who also betrayed Magnus and the brotherhood of the Primarchs by attacking him, to kill Magnus and his legion and destroy Prospero.


betrayed the brotherhood of the primarchs? Russ' option was thus: 1) Obey his father and Emperor. or 2) disobey his father for no reason, and allow a traitor to run wild. 

Magnus was the one who forced the Emperor to act. If Magnus had just listened...!



Lord of the Night said:


> If the Emperor had listened to Magnus then the galaxy wouldn't be utterly doomed.


Like the baron said this is kind of an endless spiral. But the point is is that Magnus committed the crime first, he forced the Emperor's hand in reacting. The initial fault lies at Magnus' feet.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Magnus did disobey, he kept "researching" sorcery. However in relation to the warning message you do have to look at it from Magnus's perspective.
He finds out that Horus is corrupted. He doesn't know how much time he has to warn the Emperor. He knows that Horus knows (that he knows) and Horus will more than likely take steps to implicate Magnus first or placate the Emperor before Magnus can get a warning off. Any envoy you try to send through the warp (which at this time is growing more difficult to travel) may get to the palace to late, if it gets there at all.

So two choices 
1 - Try to send a physical message to warn the Emperor and hope that it arrives in time.
or
2 - Send the information as fast as possible in a way that you know will damn you, but you might be able to save the imperium in the long run.

Magnus went ahead and damned himself, knowing full well that his father might very well punish him for revealing that he continued to practice sorcery. He did it in order to try and save the Emperor and the imperium, Remember that Magnus had the ability to see visions of things that were to come to pass. He knew most of what was going on except his own fate from the ordeal.

Tzeentch did have a hand in the whole pie. Except that Tzeentch cannot orchistrate actual outcomes. He/she can only orchestrate the situations that give the most desireable ending the best chance of success. Tzeentch did not know that Magnus would accept the offer presented to him. Magnus only turned to Chaos in order to save his own legion. Magnus could have allowed himself to die as punishement for crimes against his father. But what do you do when that what you tried to protect turns against you?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lol this is my first thread in a year. lots of posts. Hi guys.

Anyway, it seems that a lot of people seem to be in favour of Magnus' intentions. They were good and so forth. I showed you the two refrences one the first page to show the gravity of of Magnus' mistake. Its almost like having your dumb ass 18 year old son, smoking in the house after you told several times not to only in turn to having your house being burned down. Except in this case the emperor is able to plug the warp from breaking through the web way and destroying terra into an oblivian by sitting on his thrown. Without anyone there the realm of humanity falters.

So basically... "thanks Magnus, but REAL FUCKEN MISTAKE! Now I got sit in this fricken thing to prevent chaos from swallowing us up whole.

What im trying to figure out, is whether Magnus new what was going to happen and did it to further weaken the emperor and his empire. Magnus basically caused the most damage he could do from his position, so it gives hint to evaluation.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

In Collected Visions, one of the paragraphs on Magnus states that it is possible that Magnus had made deals with warp entities, in return for power or mastery of the warp, before the Emperor even told him what he knew. So, it wasn't just him being captivated with the warp (although it does say this), but also that he thinks he's found a way to make himself win in the deal- which as we know, the warp always wins!
When it comes to the psychic message that almost destroyed the Imperial Palace, that was a deliberate path to take. Magnus thought that, if he showed his father just how powerful he was and what good he'd turned his power to, he would be vindicated and the Emperor forced to admit he was wrong. As much as he was trying to help, he was trying to win an old argument and show his dad that Magnus was the new King of the Warp, better than the Emperor for having tamed the untameable. It wasn't just naivety, but arrogance that condemned him.

GFP


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with the penguin man. It seems too much to be a mistake on magnus' part. I came from being someone who thought that the emperor was a dumb ass and threw out the thousand sons. But the fact is that the thousand sons literally put the emperor on his thrown for good. The first lord of terra was the only phsycic powerful enough to relieve the emperor for the battle. but even he died in the process. So either Magnus the Red "the all knowing" really did not know the consiquence of his deed or he played the biggest role into the demise of the empyream in which it suffers from till this day.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mrrshann618 said:


> Magnus went ahead and damned himself, knowing full well that his father might very well punish him for revealing that he continued to practice sorcery. He did it in order to try and save the Emperor and the imperium


Not entirely correct. Magnus hoped that the Emperor would realise his mistake in censuring Magnus and would accept Sorcery as vital for the Imperium. He didn't send the warning knowing the Emperor would send Russ to Prospero and knowing he would become damned, he sent the warning in the hope that the Emperor would realise his mistake and the benefit of sorcery.



mrrshann618 said:


> Tzeentch did have a hand in the whole pie. Except that Tzeentch cannot orchistrate actual outcomes. He/she can only orchestrate the situations that give the most desireable ending the best chance of success. Tzeentch did not know that Magnus would accept the offer presented to him. Magnus only turned to Chaos in order to save his own legion. Magnus could have allowed himself to die as punishement for crimes against his father. But what do you do when that what you tried to protect turns against you?


Well its entirely plausable that Tzeentch was the one who actually gave Magnus the vision regarding Horus' treachery, so it would result in Magnus sending the warning, and breaking the wards around the Imperial Palace and almost bringing down the Imperium/Emperor in one fell swoop.


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> It was Erebus who said that the Emperor leeched some of the power of the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs, now whilst some of his statements were true that one in particular is one I personally would stick under the title of 'Grade-A Bullshit'. If the Emperor had corrupted the Primarchs intentionally during their creation you'd imagine he'd take more efforts to see they didn't fall further.



Chaos itself is not inherently Evil. The Big E could use Chaos to create the Primarchs without corrupting them. And if he is as strong as fluff says he is, then he would have no problem renege-ing on their deal and wouldnt have to corrupt his Primarch's.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think there was any deal between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods, rather the big E just used warp power to make the Primarchs so godly. You're right. Khornate, in that the warp itself is not inherently evil, although I would argue that _Chaos_ is. Thus, whilst the Dark Gods had no 'say' over the Primarchs through any infernal deal, they were made of the same stuff, and so could influence them probably more strongly than 'normal' humans if they were listened to. Just my $0.87.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I don't think there was any deal between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods, rather the big E just used warp power to make the Primarchs so godly.


That is of course just a theory  - its perfectly plausable that there was a deal between the Chaos Gods and the Emperor resulting in the creation of the Primarchs.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> You're right. Khornate, in that the warp itself is not inherently evil, although I would argue that _Chaos_ is.


The problem with that suggestion is that its stated that the Warp & Chaos are indivisible, and are actually one and the same thing. Thus if Chaos is, so is the Warp.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Thus, whilst the Dark Gods had no 'say' over the Primarchs through any infernal deal, they were made of the same stuff, and so could influence them probably more strongly than 'normal' humans if they were listened to.


Thats plausable aye.


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

But Fluff as written insinuates that Magnus did not listen until the very end. He knew of the Gods, for how could he not? And He knew of their power, again, how couldnt he? and He knew what they did to mortals, therefore He would give himself over to them unless he and his Legion were in Dire, Dire need. He loved his Legion, he would never condemn them unless necessary.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

khornateemperor said:


> Chaos itself is not inherently Evil. The Big E could use Chaos to create the Primarchs without corrupting them. And if he is as strong as fluff says he is, then he would have no problem renege-ing on their deal and wouldnt have to corrupt his Primarch's.


Im going to sum this up.

Chaos is evil, its pure evil, its the ultimate evil, its the embodiment, incarnation, true form of evil most perilous and dire. Chaos is, always has been and always will be pure evil.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Big E is to blame for this period. Thats my veiw. He knew Magnus and his entire Legion practise sorcery. He knew that besides himself Magnus was the most powerful Psyker, and guess what, that means close relationship with the warp.

So I hear this BS angle of Magnus Sorcery deserved, punishment by Big E. Okay he disobey his wanna be god know it all father, he practise Sorcery irregaurdless, the Emperor knew this already about Magnus, and if he didnt then the Emperor should be punish for his blatant ingnorance at what his most powerful sons and armies are doing if Sorcery was such a huge threat. 

So what is Magnus punish for, hmmmm, he sent a signal through sorcery to warn his father that everything he worked for was about to be destroyed. The sorcery cause a minor Daemon invasion via Webway that the Emperor beat back easy enough. So then the ignorant prick Emperor decides to punish Magnus when his message was more important and urgent than the minor Daemon invasion. Magnus was right in justifying the use of Sorcery to give the all important word to the Emperor. It was a drastic measure and if Horus was already getting to ready to wage war then it was good cause to use it. Too bad the Emperor has more pride than Guilliman.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Minor Daemon incursion?! It took the majority of the Custodians and Sisters of Silence to hold the hordes of Daemons at bay for a short time before they were overwhelmed, there was no limit to the numbers of Daemons flooding into the Imperial Webway and a Bloodthirster almost burst into the Imperial Dungeons before it was turned back at the portal.

What's this B.S your spouting Warlock? The Emperor knew Magnus was still practising Sorcery all along?
If the Emperor knew that Magnus was practising Sorcery before he sent his message then the Wolves would have been unleashed much sooner- if the Emperor was so omniscient regarding his sons then Magnus wouldn't have had to send a message because He'd have known about Horus' betrayal as soon as he turned.
The way you so nonchalantly say that Magnus disobeyed his father continuously, that's like saying if someone soaked the entire world in petrol and then stood in a big puddle of it smoking whilst juggling flaming torches they'd be just a bit silly.

If it wasn't for Magnus then I think the loyalists would have defeated Horus without suffering such horrendous losses.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Im going to sum this up.
> 
> Chaos is evil, its pure evil, its the ultimate evil, its the embodiment, incarnation, true form of evil most perilous and dire. Chaos is, always has been and always will be pure evil.


Sorry, but No. The Warp and thus Chaos, is an elemental and natural force. Calling it evil is like calling an Ocean or a Earthquake evil. Or indeed its like calling the material galaxy in and of itself evil, which is just absurd.

Calling Chaos Marines or willing followers of Chaos evil is a different matter. But The Warp and Chaos itself evil? No.



Warlock in Training said:


> Big E is to blame for this period. Thats my veiw. He knew Magnus and his entire Legion practise sorcery. He knew that besides himself Magnus was the most powerful Psyker, and guess what, that means close relationship with the warp.
> 
> So I hear this BS angle of Magnus Sorcery deserved, punishment by Big E. Okay he disobey his wanna be god know it all father, he practise Sorcery irregaurdless, the Emperor knew this already about Magnus, and if he didnt then the Emperor should be punish for his blatant ingnorance at what his most powerful sons and armies are doing if Sorcery was such a huge threat.


As the Baron said, The Emperor didn't know that Magnus was practising Sorcery all along, otherwise he would have been punished much sooner. The fact remains that the Emperor warned Magnus twice about the warp and using sorcery, and Magnus disregarded the warnings both times. The Emperor knew how dangerous Sorcery was, but Magnus was too arrogant to believe that he could master the warp, when obviously he couldn't. 



Warlock in Training said:


> So what is Magnus punish for, hmmmm, he sent a signal through sorcery to warn his father that everything he worked for was about to be destroyed. The sorcery cause a minor Daemon invasion via Webway that the Emperor beat back easy enough. So then the ignorant prick Emperor decides to punish Magnus when his message was more important and urgent than the minor Daemon invasion. Magnus was right in justifying the use of Sorcery to give the all important word to the Emperor. It was a drastic measure and if Horus was already getting to ready to wage war then it was good cause to use it. Too bad the Emperor has more pride than Guilliman.


As the Baron said, it was no minor Daemonic Incursion. There was a limitless tide of Daemons pouring into the human built section of the webway, the Emperor was forced to use vast amounts of his concentration and psychic power in order to seal that section of the webway. 

The Emperor quite rightly believed that Magnus was corrupted, after all - after warning him twice about the use of sorcery, Magnus continued to use it, and in fact it resulted in the near destruction of Terra itself. The Emperor believed that the contents of Magnus' message was irrelavent, as he was corrupted. Why should the Emperor have believed his disobidient son, who used a corruptable method of communication - of which the content was likely false. Aside from that Horus' loyalty was never in question.

The use of sorcery in this sense wasn't necessarily justified. Magnus thought that if he displayed the benefits of Sorcery directly to the Emperor (by sending the message) then the Emperor would be forced to recognise its benefit, and retract the edicts of Nikaea. He sorely misjudged the Emperor though, if he thought the Emperor would drop all reason and believe the contents of the message.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Oh yea the tide of Daemons was so bad that it was turned back without fully breaking out "yawn" :alcoholic:. Thats alright some people cry (kick, scream, piss, moan) over spilt milk (or in the Emperors case, the Webway ordeal), and others say "Hey, whats your deal.... what do you mean my favorite son set my house on fire?!" . Thats the way I see it. Baron, CotE, you can say all you want about how Magnus deserves it. In small ways your right, but many (including myself) think Magnus did the greater good (no Tau pun intended) by disobeying the Emperor. In the end the Big E didnt listen to Magnus and now the Emperor is a rotting corpse .


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Oh yea the tide of Daemons was so bad that it was turned back without fully breaking out "yawn" :alcoholic:. Thats alright some people cry (kick, scream, piss, moan) over spilt milk (or in the Emperors case, the Webway ordeal), and others say "Hey, whats your deal.... what do you mean my favorite son set my house on fire?!" . Thats the way I see it.


I think your majorly down-playing the Daemonic Incursion. The Emperor (the most powerful Psyker ever) was forced to channel the majority of his immense might through the Golden Throne in order to seal the Imperial built section of the Webway. This essentially paralysed the Emperor for a large part of the Horus Heresy (perhaps up to 10 years) up until Malcador took the throne whilst the Emperor confronted Horus aboard the _Vengeful Spirit_.

If Magnus listened to his father, and obeyed his commands. Magnus would have prevented damnation, remained loyal, and joined the loyalists against Horus, which may well have tipped the balance decisively in the Emperor's favour. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Baron, CotE, you can say all you want about how Magnus deserves it. In small ways your right, but many (including myself) think Magnus did the greater good (no Tau pun intended) by disobeying the Emperor. In the end the Big E didnt listen to Magnus and now the Emperor is a rotting corpse .


No one can doubt Magnus' good intentions. 

The Emperor didn't listen to Magnus? No he didn't, and with good reason. Whats more relavent is that Magnus didn't listen to Emperor, on two occasions.


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Im going to sum this up.
> 
> Chaos is evil, its pure evil, its the ultimate evil, its the embodiment, incarnation, true form of evil most perilous and dire. Chaos is, always has been and always will be pure evil.[/QUOTE}
> 
> Chaos is not Evil. At all. It's sentient Emotion. They no nothing of Evil. It's like saying getting angry is evil. Or lust is evil. Is it evil to be afraid of death? Is change Evil? I don't think so. Your arugument is Invalid.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

chaos is disorder and that does not mean it is evil


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Oh yea the tide of Daemons was so bad that it was turned back without fully breaking out "yawn" :alcoholic:. Thats alright some people cry (kick, scream, piss, moan) over spilt milk (or in the Emperors case, the Webway ordeal), and others say "Hey, whats your deal.... what do you mean my favorite son set my house on fire?!" . Thats the way I see it. Baron, CotE, you can say all you want about how Magnus deserves it. In small ways your right, but many (including myself) think Magnus did the greater good (no Tau pun intended) by disobeying the Emperor. In the end the Big E didnt listen to Magnus and now the Emperor is a rotting corpse .


I see where your comming with this, however I think you should read the 2 links I have posted up on the thread. As mentioned quite a few times, when Magnus relayed his message to the emperor, it destroyed the webway the emperor was constructing and openned a gap in the warp that allowed massive "tyranid" size waves of daemons that almost wiped out the palace. Had the emperor not sat on his thrown to close up this warp way, then terra and the empyream would have been destroyed. The biggest reason why the emperor has not been able to heal from his wounds and take control of his empire is because he must continue to sit on his thrown to prevent the destruction of terra and the empire.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Magnus might have just outright executed a large percentage of the Custodians and Sisters of Silence when he sent his message, it may have taken months for the total number of those going to perish to do so but because of Magnus' actions they were equally condemned to death as if he'd put a gun against their heads.

-Magnus' message is like me torturing your mum/mom, killing her, carving a message into her saying that your brother is a dick (which of course I sign) and flinging said body through your house's window during a particularly bad snowstorm causing most of the rest of your family to perish- yeah that should prove that writing messages in the corpses of your loved ones is a great way to pass along info, what you don't believe me about your brother?!-


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I must admit i haven't read collected visions so my knowledge is as ever less the CotE's.. however I have to agree with him

Magnus was a traitor though as we will see in A Thousand sons he perceived himself as loyal to the very end. I think that this will be one of the main focal points, the antagonism between too loyal legions, who both see the others actions as treachery against the emperor.

Unfortunately of the two primarchs it is magnus that is... inadvetantly the traitor

He discovered Horus's danger through sorcery and strived to keep him loyal to the emperor with his warnings. Howevr I believe Magnus's evident treachery to the Emperor's wishes was one of the things that turned the tide and allowed Horus to see the glories of the warp and chaos.

Personally I see the emperor at fault as he allowed magnus's dissapointment to fester after the council, if he was so averse to sorcery, prospero should have been cleansed straight after the council, its texts burnt and Magnus's envy not allowed to fester.

However still magnus continued to practice sorcery and investigated the warp attempting to control it instead of working with it and strengthening the mind against it. 

He embraced it and i wonder if amongst the malstrom of chaos that the warp embodies he found Tzeentch and mistook or was led to believe by the voice of the Chaos god for a sentient being that could be coerced cajouled and eventually dominated. Such a thing would have fascinated Magnus and with CotE's thought about the convenience of his placement upon Prospero, perhaps its true that Magnus was merely being led on to his fall.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Is Magnus not now a Daemon Prince?
Does Magnus not plot to destroy the Imperium blah blah blah?
Yep, and errr yep, Im pretty sure that makes him a traitor, how he became one is irrelavent, he chose Chaos


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

He was FORCED to Chaos. His "Brother" bombarded his Planet, Slaughtered his Legion, and broke Magnus' back. If Leman Russ wasn't so uncontrollable, The Heresy very well may have ended up with Horus destroyed from the beginning, and the Emperor still striding through the galaxy like woah.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry guys but deus mortis is right. what you are all talking about is wrong, the emperor sent the wolves and some custodes to bring magnus back to terra not to kill him.

It was horus who contacted russ to say that the order had been changed and he was to anihilate the whole legion of the thousand sons. As you will read in prospero burns.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

khornateemperor said:


> He was FORCED to Chaos.


He wasn't forced to Chaos, there were other alternatives. The main one that springs to mind is, he could have listened to his father when he was warned twice!

Apart from that even when Prospero was burning all around him and the Wolves had been unleashed, he still could have repented - but no, he stuck to his arrogance and to his sorcery.



khornateemperor said:


> The Heresy very well may have ended up with Horus destroyed from the beginning, and the Emperor still striding through the galaxy like woah.


Again, it boils down to the fact that Magnus could have prevented his own damnation decades before the Burning of Prospero, by simply listening to his Father.

This is kind of a back-and-forth argument, but the fact remains, Magnus could have just listened to his father and Emperor when he was warned of the danger of sorcery, that could have prevented all of this.


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## khornateemperor (Aug 31, 2009)

If the Emperor truly didn't want Magnus to practice sorcery, he should not have taught him in the first place. And how could he have repented?Had he repented, he still would have ended up dead. there was no alternative. The wolf was unleashed, and he had no choice.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> Sorry guys but deus mortis is right. what you are all talking about is wrong, the emperor sent the wolves and some custodes to bring magnus back to terra not to kill him.
> 
> It was horus who contacted russ to say that the order had been changed and he was to anihilate the whole legion of the thousand sons. As you will read in prospero burns.


No, infact thats not clear-cut. We have conflicting accounts on that. The _Collected Visions_ states differently to _False Gods_ for example.

We also have the conflicting Synopsis' of A Thousand Sons:

_"Censured at the Council of Nikea for his flagrant use of sorcery, Magnus the Red and his Thousand Sons Legion retreat to their homeworld of Prospero to continue their use of the arcane arts in secret. But when the ill-fated primarch forsees the treachery of Warmaster Horus and warns the Emperor with the very powers he was forbidden to use, the Master of Mankind dispatches fellow primarch Leman Russ to attack Prospero itself. But Magnus has seen more than the betrayal of Horus and the witnessed revelations will change the fate of his fallen Legion, and its primarch, forever."_

And Prospero Burns:

_"The Emperor is enraged. Primarch Magnus the Red, of the Thousand Sons Legion, has made a catastrophic mistake that endangers the safety of Terra. With no other choice, the Emperor charges Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, with the apprehension of his brother from the Thousand Sons home world of Prospero. This planet of sorcerers will not be easy to overcome, but Russ and his Space Wolves are not easily deterred. With wrath in his heart, Russ is determined to bring Magnus to justice and cause the fall of Prospero."_

Aside from that we know that both books of the duology will tell the story from a different perspective, thus are likely to conflict.

I also asked Graham Mcneil about the line in _False Gods_, and he simply said "I suggest you read the line again" - implying maybe that it was not explicitly Horus that ordered Russ to Burn Prospero, it was the Emperor as well (As the above Synopsis' also say). Horus may have simply reaffirmed the Emperor's orders and not changed them, which is entirely plausable.



khornateemperor said:


> If the Emperor truly didn't want Magnus to practice sorcery, he should not have taught him in the first place. And how could he have repented?Had he repented, he still would have ended up dead. there was no alternative. The wolf was unleashed, and he had no choice.


Magnus the Red was an amazingly powerful Psyker. He didn't need tutoring from the Emperor, all he needed from the Emperor was the warning/instruction to not dabble in Sorcery.

If anything Magnus forced himself to Chaos by practising Sorcery, and he was highly likely to have already been corrupted/aligned to Chaos (likely without his own knowledge, and just caught up in the schemes of Tzeentch) by the time of the Burning of Prospero.

The Wolves were unleashed for a good reason, to put down a rebellion and a terrible danger to the Imperium, regardless who was the instigator.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

well i might stand corrected by mcneil on the line from false gods, but why send the custodes with the wolves if not only to aprehend magnus?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> well i might stand corrected by mcneil on the line from false gods, but why send the custodes with the wolves if not only to aprehend magnus?


That is a mystery that will hopefully be revealed with the duology.

The presence of the Custodes in itself also reinforces the idea that Horus couldn't have manipulated Russ or drastically changed his orders given that Valdor was alongside Russ and would have forced the Wolf to stick to the Emperor's orders not Horus'.

Regardless though the presence of the Custodes may have been present for several reasons:

* To prove and reinforce the fact that Russ' mission was of the Emperor's will.
* Simply to aid the Space Wolves.
* Went along as a detachment alongside the Silent Sisters to aid them in their mission.

And thats really all the plausable reasons I could really think of at the moment!


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

yeah sounds plausible alright cant wait for the books they are gonna be awesome. they will clear up alot. i believe ahriman is supposed to be a really likeable charachter


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This essentially paralysed the Emperor for a large part of the Horus Heresy (perhaps up to 10 years) up until Malcador took the throne whilst the Emperor confronted Horus aboard the _Vengeful Spirit_.



Hmmmm... I will admit Im slightly more impress with the Daemon bumrush now.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Neither of those synopses imply that Russ was ordered by the Emperor to execute Magnus. That was clearly Horus' invention. The phrase "fall of Prospero" is easily read as "deposing Magnus", which an order to "apprehend" would likely do.

Did Horus explicitly tell Russ the order to execute Magnus came from the Emperor, or did he merely rely on his own authority? There is another scenario: Horus orders Russ to execute Magnus, Valdor orders Russ to stick to the Emperor's plan to "apprehend him" and tells Horus "thanks but not necessary", but when they arrive at Prospero Russ disobeys Valdor and sets out to destroy the Thousand Sons because he finds Horus' order more appealing. When Magnus disappears, it's obvious Chaos saved him and the remainder of his legion, leading Russ and Valdor to presume Magnus was allied with Chaos _from the beginning_. That's why Valdor doesn't rebuke Russ for his disobedience. Russ doesn't find out till later that it was Horus, not Magnus, who was the traitor, but by then it's easy for him to presume Magnus was already on the fence to become a turncoat before Russ arrived at Prospero.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

If magnus was so bad, why did he try to prevent the turning of Horus to chaos and unmask erebus?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> Neither of those synopses imply that Russ was ordered by the Emperor to execute Magnus.


And Neither did I say that.  



randian said:


> Did Horus explicitly tell Russ the order to execute Magnus came from the Emperor, or did he merely rely on his own authority? There is another scenario: Horus orders Russ to execute Magnus, Valdor orders Russ to stick to the Emperor's plan to "apprehend him" and tells Horus "thanks but not necessary", but when they arrive at Prospero Russ disobeys Valdor and sets out to destroy the Thousand Sons because he finds Horus' order more appealing.


Aye thats possible. The inclusion of Valdor in the Burning of Prospero adds an implication that Horus couldn't have changed Russ' orders, given that Valdor only takes orders from the Emperor.

Whether Russ listened to Valdor is another thing though. But considering Valdor had reputation and influence on par with that of a Primarch, I imagine it would have caused quite a rift if Russ strayed from the orders given to him by the Emperor.



randian said:


> When Magnus disappears, it's obvious Chaos saved him and the remainder of his legion, leading Russ and Valdor to presume Magnus was allied with Chaos _from the beginning_. That's why Valdor doesn't rebuke Russ for his disobedience. Russ doesn't find out till later that it was Horus, not Magnus, who was the traitor, but by then it's easy for him to presume Magnus was already on the fence to become a turncoat before Russ arrived at Prospero.


Yep, again thats plausable, and fits in quite nicely actually.

We could also factor in the implied revelation from Dan Abnett, that the Space Wolves were maintained as a legion, as a fail-safe essentially - an Anti-Astartes force.



shaantitus said:


> If magnus was so bad, why did he try to prevent the turning of Horus to chaos and unmask erebus?


Because he was a 'good guy' and percieved himself as a loyalist (which for all intents and purposes he was).

Magnus was arguably loyal to the Emperor right up to the end (apart from ignoring his vital orders on two occasions). He tried to help the Emperor, regarding the Heresy as any loyal Primarch would have done, he tried to prevent the corruption of Horus.

However it was all in vain, and when he tried to warn the Emperor using the very powers he was forbidden to use it had consequences likely far beyond his imagination, which enraged the Emperor. Causing him to view Magnus as the traitor (which technically he was) and not Horus.

As a result of Magnus' Sorcery (which he employed in an attempt to force the Emperor to realise the good it can do, and thus withdraw the edicts of Nikaea):

* The Imperial Wards were shattered around the Imperial Palace, resulting in a Daemonic Incursion via the Human-Built section of the Imperial Webway.
* The Emperor was paralysed (On the Golden Throne) for around a decade, right up until the peak of the Siege of Terra.
* Countless Imperial Workers, Silent Sisters, and Custodes were butchered.
* It was proved that Magnus had disobeyed the Emperor and was corrupted, ultimately resulting in the Burning of Prospero.
* Ultimately as a result Magnus willingly joined Chaos and Team Horus.

There was good reason to believe (and quite rightly) that Magnus was the traitor and the one who had been corrupted rather than Horus.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

My, this is one educational thread we have here.  Though you really should take a step back and read the whole thing from page one. You guys are basically taking turns in saying "NO U", though of course in a much more sophisticated manner. What I see is that both sides are lacking decisive evidence; otherwise this wouldn't be such a heated topic and we would have agreed on something by now. And when CotE says that it would be best to wait and see what the two books are going to say, thats rock-solid proof that this is a shady story that needs some more light. I have a soft spot for Magnus and I love his character, and hey, I think the Emperor is a dickhead but I'll withhold judgement 'till I read the whole HH series. I enjoy being right but I don't mind when I'm proven wrong. And while truth is a cruel thing, its a pillar upon which the world stands, and I'll accept whatever the books will prove.

Oh and about that the Warp being mean and evil: back in the old days it was a nice place, and only it getting stuffed with mindfuckery forced the shaman on Terra to merge into the Emperor, in order to somehow fix it. So originally, the Warp was just as threatening as the Materium, but once the Chaos Gods set up shop they filled it with cookies that eat you. And evil works just like lies: it is best when apparently the majority comprising it is good/truth. Thats what makes the Chaos Gods really evil I think: they appear to be good and indeed have good sides (just like Kharn :grin, but at the end of the day they're like /b/ (Tzeentch), /v/ (Khorne), /d/ (Slaanesh) and /tg/ (Nurgle) set loose upon the world. And thats pretty bad I'll tell you that. :grin:
Though I still consider the Dark Eldar the number one evil in 40K. Chaos has principles (or at the very least you can argue that that they might have), but these mean pointy ears are just sick to the core.

minor and probably irrelevant edit: 1500 posts, yeeeeeeeeey!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnus was loyal to the core and only turned to save his legion whom he loved more than any other of the primarchs

He tried to contact earth using sorcery to quickly contact the emperor, 30k cross galaxy post was quite slow! Even current 40k use sorcery to commune with others (its sorcery nothing else pure sorcery!) he wanted to stop the heresy before it started.

He was willing to personally accept any punishment the emperor gave him, even his own life if it meant saving the imperium. He however did not expect that his legion would be punished for his actions

He was unaware of what the emperor was actually doing on earth, The emperor told no one of his webway plans, not even beloved horus so how would he know it would break the webway? 

Isn't the emperor a bit of a hypocrite? I can use my crazy psychic gifts but you can't. Magnus had been a psyker for years, its how he found the emperor in the first place. he had never done anything evil, he had aways acted for the good of the imperium. Nikea showed the emperor was weak and easily lead by other by bowing to pressure not a strong leader

Magnus only turned to save the 2 things he loved more than the emperor his legion and his learning. even when he turned he never played such an active role as other fallen primarchs. He really only turned bad after the rubric of ahriman effectivly destroyed his legion of scholars.

Who would have acted any differently to magnus? hes your stereotypical greek hero


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

In my opinion he was both. Because-

A) He was Loyal for trying to contact the Emperor and warn him of the Horus Heresy, only, in my eyes, wanting to save the Imperium from the great tradegy which followed. 

B) He was Disloyal because he continued to use Sorcery even though it had been banned at Nikae, or however you spell it, and shattered the Psyker-Defences of Terra in contacting the Emperor.

Thats just my two cents however, and in the long term, I will not know until I read A Thousand Sons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Barnster said:


> Even current 40k use sorcery to commune with others (its sorcery nothing else pure sorcery!)


Well, its not though is it...!



Barnster said:


> He was willing to personally accept any punishment the emperor gave him, even his own life if it meant saving the imperium. He however did not expect that his legion would be punished for his actions


The Emperor warned the entire Imperium that if he was disobeyed, he would visit destruction upon those who break his laws.



'Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.' (_A Thousand Sons_ page 356)




Barnster said:


> He was unaware of what the emperor was actually doing on earth, The emperor told no one of his webway plans, not even beloved horus so how would he know it would break the webway?


Actually he was aware of what the Emperor was doing on Terra, the Emperor told Magnus.



Following Magnus discovering a Webway Portal on Aghoru.




Barnster said:


> Isn't the emperor a bit of a hypocrite? I can use my crazy psychic gifts but you can't. Magnus had been a psyker for years, its how he found the emperor in the first place. he had never done anything evil, he had aways acted for the good of the imperium. Nikea showed the emperor was weak and easily lead by other by bowing to pressure not a strong leader


Magnus was incredibly arrogant when it came to his powers and the warp, he disregarded the Emperor's warnings several times not to delve too deeply in the Warp. The difference between Magnus and the Emperor was that not only was the Emperor more powerful, but he also knew his limits - Magnus believed he had none.



And Aside from that Magnus had already bargained with Daemons and the Chaos Gods.




Barnster said:


> Magnus only turned to save the 2 things he loved more than the emperor his legion and his learning. even when he turned he never played such an active role as other fallen primarchs. He really only turned bad after the rubric of ahriman effectivly destroyed his legion of scholars.


Wasn't he present during the Siege of Terra?


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## Relic of Light (Dec 24, 2009)

If Magnus was not so bent on proving the emperor wrong, then with his foresight about Horus, and I'm sure his knowledge about what was going to happen, he could have sent his legion out to ambush Horus at Istvaan III.

Would Magnus have had the power to help calm the storms in the warp to help the Imperial Fist get through to Isvaan III also?

Maybe it was too late for Istvaan III, but not V.

If Magnus could tell that Horus was a Traitor, could he tell the others like Fulgrim where too?

If so then again he could have made a difference by sending his legion to Istvaan V, using his Ships from obit to do damage to the night lords and co, setting up a ambush or two or just making it back to Terra to help in the defence.

Point is if Magnus was not so determined to prove the Emperor wrong about Sorcery there are many ways he could have changed the course of this war, not to mention the Emperor would not have been trapped on his throne.

So I do not think Magnus was a true Traitor, but he was not acting in the best interest of the imperium at the time. One could say he was more like a child in the way he was acting.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Barnster said:


> even when he turned he never played such an active role as other fallen primarchs. He really only turned bad after the rubric of ahriman effectivly destroyed his legion of scholars.


Magnus participated in the Siege of Terra, and he was already a Daemon Prince to boot. That screams "bad" to me.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnus was there but never sent his whole legion to destroy the palace in the same quantity that other legions did, the 1k sons sorcerers did open a warp rift allowing deamons to break through but that was the majority of their actions.

plus its unclear how much of an actual role magnus had at the seige. the 1k sons were given far more autonomy than other legions and these men could have harboured a greater resentment to the imperium than magnus, who poissibly was suffering from a form of depression. Personally i think its the greatest things about the demi-god primarchs they all have their flaws and agendas, and there will always be characters we like more than others and those that we can relate to more others.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

The new novel 'A Thousand Sons' sheds light upon this.



Magnus was loyal, even while Prospero was burning. In fact, he deliberated allowed Russ and the Custodians to invade. He realised that he had destroyed the Emperor's great work, and was utterly ashamed. He wanted to be punished, and refused to attack the Wolves. He only reluctantly took to the battlefield when Russ himself challenged him.

Magnus seems to be the only truly good 'traitor' legion primarch. He had talked with the Emperor even while he was being created. he alone out of all the primarchs NEVER lost contact with the Emperor, even when his physical form was scattered by the chaos gods. He actually wished to die after he found out he had betrayed the Emperor.


However, he was very arrogant, and he had underestimated the warp massively. However, his sins were bourne of ignorance, not spite or evil.


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## xGhost4000x (Feb 14, 2010)

Magnus is my favorite primarch, and the Thousand Sons will be my next army(when I get out of my current bout of Unemployment) that being said, if the emperor would have listened to Magnus warning then Horus may have been stopped sooner. 

It seems both, Magnus, and the Emperor, have trouble listening.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

xGhost4000x said:


> Magnus is my favorite primarch, and the Thousand Sons will be my next army(when I get out of my current bout of Unemployment) that being said, if the emperor would have listened to Magnus warning then Horus may have been stopped sooner.
> 
> It seems both, Magnus, and the Emperor, have trouble listening.




'He had tried to deliver his warning, showing his father what he had seen and what he knew. It hadn't mattered. Nothing he could have said would have outweighed or undone the colossal mistake he had made in coming to Terra. The treachery of Horus was swept away, an afterthought in the wake of the destruction Magnus had unwittingly unleashed. Wards that had kept the palace safe for hundreds of years were obliterated in an instant, and the psychic shockwave killed thousands and drove hundreds more to madness and suicide. But that wasn't the worst of it, not by a long way. It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie... but in the ruins of his father's great work he had seen the truth. The Golden Throne was the key... Unspoken understanding flowed between Magnus and the Emperor. Everything Magnus had done was laid bare, and everything the Emperor planned flowed into him... It broke him to know that his unthinking hubris had shattered that dream.' (Page 446-447 _A Thousand Sons_)


Its not clear what the Emperor thought or believed. Regardless though he wasn't really in a position to do anything about Horus considering he was forced to take to the Golden Throne in order to challenge the oncoming hordes of Daemons, and is presumed not to have risen from the Golden Throne for around 10 years, during the peak of the Siege of Terra.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 'He had tried to deliver his warning, showing his father what he had seen and what he knew. It hadn't mattered. Nothing he could have said would have outweighed or undone the colossal mistake he had made in coming to Terra. The treachery of Horus was swept away, an afterthought in the wake of the destruction Magnus had unwittingly unleashed. Wards that had kept the palace safe for hundreds of years were obliterated in an instant, and the psychic shockwave killed thousands and drove hundreds more to madness and suicide. But that wasn't the worst of it, not by a long way. It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie... but in the ruins of his father's great work he had seen the truth. The Golden Throne was the key... Unspoken understanding flowed between Magnus and the Emperor. Everything Magnus had done was laid bare, and everything the Emperor planned flowed into him... It broke him to know that his unthinking hubris had shattered that dream.' (Page 446-447 _A Thousand Sons_)
> 
> 
> Its not clear what the Emperor thought or believed. Regardless though he wasn't really in a position to do anything about Horus considering he was forced to take to the Golden Throne in order to challenge the oncoming hordes of Daemons, and is presumed not to have risen from the Golden Throne for around 10 years, during the peak of the Siege of Terra.


The emperor himself wouldn't be required to more than give an order. It’s fairly clear the space wolves weren't busy. I believe that the emperor and Magnus are to blame however for Persperos destruction, the emperor was to blinded by his love for hours and his utter fury at the destruction of his greatest work to see what was taking place and Magnus acted to hastily in that he could have sent an envoy and/or he could have gone to the emperor in person to deliver the news. As to his loyalty, I believe Magnus was loyal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The emperor himself wouldn't be required to more than give an order. It’s fairly clear the space wolves weren't busy. I believe that the emperor and Magnus are to blame however for Persperos destruction, the emperor was to blinded by his love for hours and his utter fury at the destruction of his greatest work to see what was taking place and Magnus acted to hastily in that he could have sent an envoy and/or he could have gone to the emperor in person to deliver the news. As to his loyalty, I believe Magnus was loyal.


Well he did give an order, he made Rogal Dorn custodian of Terra and Malcador his regent. These were two individuals who were more than capable of dealing with any potential situations that arose. 

Dorn dealt with Horus' rebellion as he saw fit, which culminated with the Isstvan V massacre, and which eventually led to the siege of Terra. The Emperor being active wouldn't have made a huge difference at this point to be honest, Horus was in the perfect position to crush the Imperium.

And yes Magnus essentially was loyal, but disobidient and incredibly arrogant, believing he was above even the Emperor in terms of psychic mastery. It was these things that enabled Tzeentch to manipulate him and which ultimately ended in his fall to Chaos.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well he did give an order, he made Rogal Dorn custodian of Terra and Malcador his regent. These were two individuals who were more than capable of dealing with any potential situations that arose.
> 
> Dorn dealt with Horus' rebellion as he saw fit, which culminated with the Isstvan V massacre, and which eventually led to the siege of Terra. The Emperor being active wouldn't have made a huge difference at this point to be honest, Horus was in the perfect position to crush the Imperium.
> 
> And yes Magnus essentially was loyal, but disobidient and incredibly arrogant, believing he was above even the Emperor in terms of psychic mastery. It was these things that enabled Tzeentch to manipulate him and which ultimately ended in his fall to Chaos.


Yes well the Isstvan V incident was a terrible blow but what I am saying is that with the Wolves being at full strength as well as the Thousand Sons it would have severely limited the effective potential of the traitors to do battle with the imperium. Does anyone know what other methods of communication were left open to the imperium if astropaths were outlawed?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes well the Isstvan V incident was a terrible blow but what I am saying is that with the Wolves being at full strength as well as the Thousand Sons it would have severely limited the effective potential of the traitors to do battle with the imperium.


Not quite sure what you mean?



gen.ahab said:


> Does anyone know what other methods of communication were left open to the imperium if astropaths were outlawed?


Astropaths weren't outlawed. But the reason Magnus didn't trust his message to them was simple. Firslty because it would take much longer than directly travelling to Terra via the Webway himself, and secondly because if the Emperor recieved the message via Astropath (having been passed on to different ones, and becoming at the very least fourth or fifth hand knowledge) he most definatly wasn't going to believe it. Magnus needed to see and talk to the Emperor face-to-face. Aside from that the interpretations of such Astrotelepathic messages could not have been what Magnus intended.



'For my father to believe me I must speak to him directly. He must bear witness to the acuity of my visions, and he must know what I know with the totality of my truth.' (_A Thousand Sons_page 435)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That if the emperor had seen the message as what it was and believed Magnus that they would have held the Thousand sons as loyalists and had two more full strength legions on their side. That would have severely impacted the power of the traitor legions. As it stood the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, World Eaters and the emperor’s children were depleted when they cleaned house. With two more full legions on the side of the emperor Horus could have been in deep trouble.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I have to side somewhat with Magnus here. He clearly defied a direct order from the Big E, yes, but several other Primarchs also deviated from his orthodoxy, though arguably not as severely. 

The very fact that Horus was so keen on having the 1k Sons crushed also speaks to his loyalty. If he had been aboard Team Chaos, Horus could likely just have stopped by and promised him sorcerous power unlimited once the galaxy was under the heel of the Warp. Having one loyalist army crush another must have also been quite sweet for the Warmaster.

That said, one of the things that makes the 40k fluff so fun is that the big guys are not only fallible, but exageratedly, dramatically fallible. They are amplified traits of human nature, like the greek gods of old. Magnus couldn't resist being the nosy magey Raistlin wanabe, Russ coudn't help being the boisterous hairy bully, Roboute is also a victim of being the ultimate straight guy, and so on. 

The only course I can think of that could have averted the disaster would have been to go over Horus' head on this one. Get a neutral party like Gilliman or Khan to aprehend Magnus instead of the Warmaster, since both him and Horus have their loialty on the line. It's how it's dony, actually. When an allegedly corrupt part A accuses part B of being dirty, the case is not ruled out instantly just because part A is a criminal/traitor. You bet your melta it's investigated.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> That if the emperor had seen the message as what it was and believed Magnus that they would have held the Thousand sons as loyalists and had two more full strength legions on their side. That would have severely impacted the power of the traitor legions. As it stood the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, World Eaters and the emperor’s children were depleted when they cleaned house. With two more full legions on the side of the emperor Horus could have been in deep trouble.


I dont believe it would have been that simple. Magnus and his legion had still disobeyed the Emperor and shattered his plans for humanity, and they were still puppets of Tzeentch, having been corrupted (in a sense of the word) from Day one.

Thats the real tradegy about the story and the novel (_A Thousand Sons_), its two loyal legions going at each other for the wrong reasons. 



Magnus' absence from the vast majority of the Burning of Prospero also helps his cause. He states that the Emperor will need his 'loyal wolves' before the end, so it would better to just let them destory Prospero and the Thousand Sons - Better the Emperor have one full strength legion (Space Wolves) rather than a destroyed legion (Space Wolves) and a crippled half-traitor legion (Thousand Sons) - which is what would have happened if Magnus defended his homeworld.




Sephyr said:


> The very fact that Horus was so keen on having the 1k Sons crushed also speaks to his loyalty.


Indeed, Yeah. That also reinforces the idea that he was a loyalist. Or at least thats how Horus percieved him.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed, Yeah. That also reinforces the idea that he was a loyalist. Or at least thats how Horus percieved him.


Horus meemed to have a rather keen eye on whom to approach in order to convert them. He brought Angron and Fulgrim into the fold by knowing their natures and/or previous corruption, and as far as lore is concerned, doesn't seem to have heard a 'no' from any primarch that he actually contacted. His perceptions proved very much correct on whom he could recruit.

The powers of the warp or his own sorcerers would likely have hinted to him if his brother was truly corrupted or needed just a small push in the right direction, I think.


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## Radagast (Feb 19, 2010)

The way of Tzeentch are misterious.
Magnus foresaw the fall of the emperor to horus, but did not forsee his own downfall.

And there is also the conflict between the renegade not chaotic chapters, and the followers of the falls emperor, Rulership thru one. Monotheism. ONE GOD ONE LEADER ONE BOOT.

And the entire story remindes me of the Book of Job.(probably a plagiat, gods true believer, was about to get sacrificed by god him self influenced by satan, the emperor and horus)

On the Magnus the sorcerer vs the emperor, i can only say, you guys sounds like the spanish inquisition. Ruining everything pagan non christian in the way of the european thinking.

So what am I saying, not only is Magnus a victim to the Emperor, but to Tzeentzch also. But mostly a victim to Horus

He was giving the oportunity to REPENT. BURN WITCH BURN.

The fact of Horus manipulating the Wolfs and Russ, to go against the 1k sons, is probably the best proof not only of they loyalty, but also a good hint of what the HH could turn up to be.(Beside the blindless of the Falls Emperor to see his true enemy in his belowed son)


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Radagast said:


> The way of Tzeentch are misterious.
> Magnus foresaw the fall of the emperor to horus, but did not forsee his own downfall.
> 
> And there is also the conflict between the renegade not chaotic chapters, and the followers of the falls emperor, Rulership thru one. Monotheism. ONE GOD ONE LEADER ONE BOOT.
> ...


I'll have to partly disagree with you on this one, how exactly is Magnus a victim to the Emperor? He didn't actually order their destruction, but rather wanted him brought to Terra to pay for his mistakes by taking his place on the Golden Toilet. Plus CoTE already gave tons of posts on how technically the Emperor had a logical reason to percieve Magnus as the traitor instead, which he sort of was. Come to think of it even when the Wolves descended upon Prospero, couldn't Magnus have asked for a parlay, or send a transmission to persuade Russ to stop and just bring him to Terra as originally intended? Instead he went on the defensive and fought, which of course only further made them look bad to others. Plus with Magnus ultimately turning to Tzzentch is pretty retarded if you ask me, considering he was so arrogant in his psychic prowess that he thought he was above all the dangers of the warp, only to become a pawn. By the way I think you mean "False Emperor" not Falls, I'm sorry but grammar errors really annoy if they keep consistently coming up all the time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Grimskul25 said:


> I'll have to partly disagree with you on this one, how exactly is Magnus a victim to the Emperor?


Tzeentch when conversing with Magnus says that:



'And why would you wish them to serve a man who betrayed you? A man who showed you unlimited power & then told you not to use it? What manner of father opens the door to a world of wonder and then orders you not to go through? This _man_ who planned to use your flesh to save his own from destruction?'

The images in the glass changed once more, and Magnus saw the Golden Throne, its mechanisms wreathed in crackling arcs of lighting. A howling, withered cadaver sat upon the throne, its once-mighty flesh blackened and metastasised.

'This is to be your destiny,' said the mirror, 'bound forever to the Emperor's soul-engine, suffering undurable agony to serve his selfish desires. Look upon this and know the truth.'

...

'Why should I believe anything you say?' he cried.

'You already know the truth of your doom; I have no need to embellish. Look into the warp and hunt your nemesis. He and his savage dogs of war are already on their way. Trust yourself if you do not trust me.'

But of course, take with a pinch of salt.





Grimskul25 said:


> He didn't actually order their destruction, but rather wanted him brought to Terra to pay for his mistakes by taking his place on the Golden Toilet.


Well we know that the Emperor intended to sit Magnus on the throne prior to Magnus sending his warning to Terra. But following that I doubt it, especially considering Magnus actually undone the Imperial Webway and the Emperor's plans. 

We also don't know what exactly it was that the Emperor ordered Russ to do. I personally take the position that the Emperor actually ordered Russ to kill Magnus and destroy Prospero himself (Note the Emperor's warning/threat to Magnus at Nikaea). Which was in turn 'egged on' by Horus & Valdor.



Grimskul25 said:


> Come to think of it even when the Wolves descended upon Prospero, couldn't Magnus have asked for a parlay, or send a transmission to persuade Russ to stop and just bring him to Terra as originally intended? Instead he went on the defensive and fought, which of course only further made them look bad to others.


Magnus didn't fight and ordered his legion not to. He even went as far as to prevent his legion finding out that the Wolves of Fenris were on their way and dispersed his legion's fleet from around Prospero in order to allow the Space Wolves to attack without any serious opposition.

It was his legion which disobeyed Magnus by actually retaliating against the Space Wolves. Magnus only himself joined the fight right at the end when Russ unleashed the Wulfen.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Sorry but I am in the pity Magnus camp over this. He wanted to contact the emporer with a message of vital importance that could not risk being intercepted so he used sorcery since it was the only way he knew. 

Then the emporer sent Russ to capture magnus but Russ listened to Horus and then tried to kill him. 

Magnus did not send any orders to attack the wolves and was reduced to a borken man and his legion by them.

Therefore he listened to the only power that had any respect for him, tzeentch. 

Even now however certain characters like Ahriman still believe that chaos can be controlled. Does this make them traitors?


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I just wanted to know what people think about the Thousand Sons Legion and Magnus the Red during the Heresy.


i, for one, am very very bored with this silly notion that the Primarchs were incapable of making a choice to be the bad guys and so all had to have something to shift the blame onto. Fulgrim was possessed, Alpharius is doing it for the Emporer and Magnus was only trying to help.

they sound like the most spineless pathetic excuses for badguys i have ever heard of. they don't sound like well rounded and deep characters, they sound like miserable little girls.

as far as i'm concerned the description of Magnus in the HH Collected Visions is the best one. Magnus, like other Primarchs, turned bad of his own accord and sent the message to the Emperor specifically to goad a reaction.

that's a real super-villian. i'd play his army.



Bloody Mary said:


> Well, my view is that they were a.) victims of the Emperor's paranoia,


what paranoia? the Big E told them not to do it because they weren't ready or capable of handling such things yet, and do you know what happened to them? they turned to Chaos, exactly what he had warned them of. that's not paranoia. that's common sense. like telling a child not to grab at pans on the stove.


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> i, for one, am very very bored with this silly notion that the Primarchs were incapable of making a choice to be the bad guys and so all had to have something to shift the blame onto. Fulgrim was possessed, Alpharius is doing it for the Emporer and Magnus was only trying to help.
> 
> they sound like the most spineless pathetic excuses for badguys i have ever heard of. they don't sound like well rounded and deep characters, they sound like miserable little girls.
> 
> ...


'Well rounded and deep characters' will never see themselves as evil and are bound to have excuses and sets of events that turn them into what they are. Noone chooses to be the 'bad guy'


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

that's not actually true. plenty of people in the real world actively choose to do bad things, knowing that they themselves regard them as bad, and yet they are not one-dimentional cartoons, they are real people. others simply disregard senses of morality that they feel are put onto them by society, so they will do things that they know are regarded as evil, and equally they are not simple stereotypes.

the fact that the Primarchs seem to be incapable of making a decision for themselves just makes them feel wishy-washy. it makes there armies feel like pretend bad-guys, who would turn good 'if only they knew the truth'. that doesn't inspire me with confidence in their cause. i have a very large EC army and when i read Fulgrim i actually felt like giving it up. they didn't seem so bad any more, just confused and stupid.

as for no-one choosing to be the bad-guy, i think you are sorely mistaken. _i_ choose to be the bad guy when i play as CSM. Chaos is not for the benefit of mankind, the Emporer is. that doesn't mean i don't want to play as the tyrannical, evil CSM/Daemons.


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