# How would a whole legion do take on all of commorragh?



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Would a primarch and a whole legion be able to take out the dark eldars if they found a webway portal into commorragh ? 

I mean from reading the raid on Commorragh in lexicanum it was just the Salamenders that did allot of damage.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

kwak76 said:


> Would a primarch and a whole legion be able to take out the dark eldars if they found a webway portal into commorragh ?
> 
> I mean from reading the raid on Commorragh in lexicanum it was just the Salamenders that did allot of damage.


I honestly think, that an entire legion attacking commorragh directly would have devastating effects on Commoragh and the dark eldar. just imagine Horus and his legion, or for example the Imperial fists or Ultramarines as a legion with primarch and all entering the webway and comming out over commoragh and unleashing all hell. I think it might actualy end up becoming a cull.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Depends, really... The problem with Commorragh is its size and population. While the Dark city itself may be large as an entire planet, there's probably hundreds of milions of DE in it, if not billions. Not counting xeno mercenaries and so on. 

DE can also close off and isolate portions of Commorragh... so it's questionable if a legion would be able to effectively hunt them all down and kill....

Ofc, that doesn't means a legion wouldn't stand a chance, it's afterall at least 100,000 marines we are talking about. 

Even if Imperium managed to defeat most of Commorragh, I guess the remaining DE would flee. Eldar aren't really known for static wars and last stands.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I think the initial damage will be the telling factor. If the astartes can strike a critical section of the city early, they may be able to deal crippling damage to the key resources and cohesion of the dark eldar forces. 

If they hit what is ultimately an expendable node of Commoragh, chances are the DE will gradually be able to turn the tide.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I think it would spell the end of commorragh. But remember that commorragh ain't the only city of the DE. So it would by no means spell the end of the DE.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I don't think they would be successful at all. They will do a huge amount of damage but will most likely take crippling damage themselves.

I think the main things here it wouldn't be just the dark eldar. If it was a full blown extermination I sincerely believe the Craftworlds would get involved and not just them but the Harlequins as well. Now they are facing 3 "worlds" military. 

That and as previously stated the "nodes" can be cut off from each other and nothing spoils a legions day than being isolated in an area when a black hole is opened up.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

effigy22 said:


> I think the main things here it wouldn't be just the dark eldar. If it was a full blown extermination I sincerely believe the Craftworlds would get involved and not just them but the Harlequins as well. Now they are facing 3 "worlds" military.


I actually hadn't considered this. I'm not so sure craftworlders or exodites wold get involved, but the Harlequins certainly would. I suppose it is quite possible that the Harlequins might pressure other sects of the eldar into lending an assist.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> I actually hadn't considered this. I'm not so sure craftworlders or exodites wold get involved, but the Harlequins certainly would. I suppose it is quite possible that the Harlequins might pressure other sects of the eldar into lending an assist.


As much as the DE and CWE don't get along they both share a common cause of "Survival" - the DE would not (imo) ask for help but as you said, Harlies would and the CWE no better than to refuse a Harlequin.

Exodites however, I don't believe they would what so ever, I think of them as Imperial PDF. Not really equipped to fight and tend to be the fluff whipping boy (along side Avatars).


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The concentrated force of an entire legion is a force which can end entire species and civilizations. (As per Forgeworld's Heresy books). 

So yes, a legion with all its assets and personnel could eliminate Commarragh.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> The concentrated force of an entire legion is a force which can end entire species and civilizations.


Not all civilizations are made equal, though. Modern Earth's military doesn't hold a candle to what the Dark Eldar could bring to bear.

That being said, I think the Legion and Primarch would crush the Dark Eldar.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

You also need to remember that the time frame is way different. Commorragh would not be nearly as established and entrenched as it is now back when a Legion and it's Primarch would have assaulted it. This assault would be taking place right as it was starting to grow, the other Eldar sects would not find it so vital to defend because it would not be so large and hold so many of their species. 

However, if a Legion were to assault modern Commorragh, I do not think it would succeed. Commorragh, under the leadership of Vect, is one tough cookie. If a Chaos invasion, Mandrake uprising, and Archon civil war happening all within the same couple weeks cannot bring Vect or the city down then nothing can. I am certain of it. 

After reading the recent DE books by Andy Chambers I am convinced that the Harlequins would get involved and convince the Craftworlds to join in. Despite their differences, Craftworld Eldar still view the Commorragh Eldar as their own species, and it is well known that the Eldar would kill millions of humans to save but a few dozen of their own kind. They would not hesitate to intervene, in my opinion.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Assuming this is against Modern Commorragh like Berzerker said, I would assume that neither side would win.

If you took all of Commorragh's population and the SM legion and plopped them down on a random planet. SM would surely win.

But Commorragh is a very twisted, dark place, filled with all kinds of entrances, exits and things that go bump in the night.

Both sides would end up taking incredible loses, but I don't think either side would come out as a victor.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

A single chapter wiped out several lineages of Dark Eldar nobility and caused untold damage that still lingers in present day Commoragh (albeit Vect probably helped them from the shadows).

An entire legion would annihilate it completely entrenched or not.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> A single chapter wiped out several lineages of Dark Eldar nobility and caused untold damage that still lingers in present day Commoragh (albeit Vect probably helped them from the shadows).
> 
> An entire legion would annihilate it completely entrenched or not.


And not even the whole chapter. Wasn't that just, like, a hundred marines?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In a so-called "pitched battle", I think there is little doubt that a full Legion (led by a Primarch) would triumph. 

However, in an invasion of Commorragh, the advantage is played into the Dark Eldar's hands. The dimensions of the Dark City are described as:



Codex: Dark Eldar said:


> In the depths of the web way lies Commorragh, the lair of the Dark Eldar; called the Dark City by those who fear to speak its name. Commorragh is no mere metropolis, for it is to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites. Its dimensions would be considered impossible if they could be read by conventional means. If anything, Commorragh is more like a vast collection of satellite realms and cities linked by uncounted portals and hidden pathways. Viewed from one perspective, Commorragh is a loose collection of far flung nodes spread throughout the arteries of the web way like a malevolent virus. Its clustered concentrations are in reality scattered across the galaxy, thousands of light-years apart in places. Yet these locations are linked together by shimmering dimensional short-cuts. From within the web way’s confines, the immense distances between each sub-realm can be crossed with a single step. Commorragh appears within the web way as a composite entity of impossible scale, a shimmering, contradictory realm the dimensions of which pluck at the sanity of those who approach it. Thousands of ships dock each day within its out flung spines, for the Dark Eldar are far more numerous than even their Craftworld kin suspect.


Any full-scale invasion would require the ability to outmanoeuvre and out-think the leaders of the Dark City. It seems quite a simple process for Vect (or other Archons) to seal (or otherwise hide) the interconnecting "portals and hidden pathways" that necessitate travel between areas of the Dark City. Combine that with the knowledge that the Dark Kin hold concerning the webway itself would put the Space Marine Legion at a distinct disadvantage, perhaps even completely unable to access the Dark City. In many ways Commorragh is unconquerable. 

However, as someone else has already pointed out, if we're talking about a hypothetical invasion occurring during the Great Crusade (when Commorragh was not as developed) the advantage would be less clear.



JAMOB said:


> And not even the whole chapter. Wasn't that just, like, a hundred marines?


It should be noted that the invasion was facilitated by Vect with the express intention of wiping out (or dethroning) the ancient noble houses. Everything they achieved is thus likely down to Vect.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The Pathnovels make it clear that Commoraugh itself is the " scariest environment imaginable". (Thanks Owen Wilson). I think a whole legion, stuck in the webway without it's starships and support, in a place that opens into Deamon Worlds when you cross the street wrong wouldn't be conquerable at all.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

It technically would be possible to conquer the city, but would require both immense amounts of force and an immense amount of knowledge about the Webway. In Path of the Archon, if Yllithian had the power of a Legion behind his back, he likely would have overthrown Vect due to his knowledge of the city. He had the knowledge just not the power, a Legion would have the power, just not the knowledge. Unless the Emperor was leading them. 

Now, that's interesting in and of itself. Had the Heresy never happened, and the Emperor established strong connections to the web way and was in the process of cleansing it for Imperial use, he could lead a legion or two to victory. He would have the knowledge and power.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

So the dark eldars have the home field advantages . I imagine there be heavy damage on both sides but I think the legions have the advantage with the battle barges and battle ships. I mean if there was a path way to Commoragh why not just bomb the place like crazy and get out the same pathway? 

When it comes to weapons and armour? I think the space marines have the advantage compared to the dark eldars. Correct me if I;m wrong.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> battle barges and battle ships.


I can't recall where I found it, but there was this one time when Dark Eldar captured a battle barge from the inside and then dropped it on an imperial planet. So... That might not work out so well


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## DeathGlam (Apr 17, 2014)

Im sure the Legion would wipe out Commorragh but im also sure that Vect or another high up Archon would have a plan in place so that it ends in a lose lose situation for both sides, as a few of the smarter DE flee in to the Webway.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> So the dark eldars have the home field advantages . I imagine there be heavy damage on both sides but I think the legions have the advantage with the battle barges and battle ships. I mean if there was a path way to Commoragh why not just bomb the place like crazy and get out the same pathway?


Most of the Webway pathways to Commoraugh are not Shipways. Battleships and Battle Barges would most likely not be available to bombard it if the Legion only managed to breach normal webways, which are tank sized if not smaller. If a Legion breached a shipway, it would be difficult to hold off the Imperial Fleet, but even so, the DE have quite a significant fleet presence themselves.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Depends on the Legion. 

I think the only Legions that could take current Commorragh would be....

1) Ultramarines. They have the highest numbers in 250,000 Marines. They also had the most versatile tactics back then too. 

2) Word Bearers. They had 200,000 Marines and were already dealing with Possessed Marines and chaos knoweldge way before the Heresy. 

3) Thousand Sons. The fractured version of the Legion has given the Webway hell. I imagine the whole Legion led by Magnus would take it. Add in the fact the Chaos entities they can bring with them through their powers, damn. 

Thats it really. Most of the other Legions range from 80,000 to 150,000 Marines and have no real unique nich the DE cannot compensate for. 

As others said as well, Commarragh is multiple Dimensions of varying size. DE can lock these dimensions down, as well use Captured Suns and Black Holes as weapons. 

In short, the above three Legions IMO could take Commarragh, but even then not likely.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

This topic really depends on what kind of primarch and legion show up in Commorragh. If it's Ferrus Manus from _Fulgrim,_ for instance, then yeah... there's no hope of success for the Space Marines. But if it's Ferrus Manus as he apparently was _supposed_ to be (in the vein of the apologies to his character that I've seen in subsequent novels and short stories), then it's a different matter altogether.

For one thing, this topic assumes that the Imperium has gained the ability to traverse the Webway. This addresses one of Commorragh's most significant advantages: its galactic and dislocated scope and scale. It's not as if the legion in question would automatically have to enter Commorragh and focus all its efforts though one specific gate. This would allow the theoretically superhumanly brilliant primarch the ability to plan and execute a multi-faceted approach to hitting the Dark Eldar.

Could one Legion destroy all of Commorragh at the height of its power? I don't know. The description from the Codex certainly seems to imply that attempting to do so would be folly. I have no doubt, though, that a determined Legion with access to the Webway and a properly brilliant primarch could stay for as long as they liked and do such damage to Commorragh that it would cease to be a power center for the Dark Eldar. For as long as 100,000-150,000 Space Marines roamed through their realm, supported by their fleets, etc., the Dark Eldar would always be on the back foot. They would always be forced to defend, to hit and run, and to watch as a realm that took them millennia to set up was systematically ripped apart.

And remember, the most permanent and destructive measures the Dark Eldar could unleash on their relentless foes would ultimately be unleashed on their own metropolis. The permanent sealing of passages simply reduces Commorragh and only slows down the onslaught. The destruction of everything within one of the "mini-realms" of Commorragh's also means the destruction of their own possessions, infrastructure, technology, and artifacts.

While all this is going on, the fractiousness of the Dark Eldar only plays against them. Failure at any turn simply ensures that more treachery will rip through their ranks. Solidarity only exists on one side of this struggle...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> 3) Thousand Sons. The fractured version of the Legion has given the Webway hell. I imagine the whole Legion led by Magnus would take it. Add in the fact the Chaos entities they can bring with them through their powers, damn.


Actually I think the Thousand Sons would be a bad choice. Using psychic powers in the Webway is an excellent way to breach it and when the warp rolls in I don't think it'll care who's there. 



Phoebus said:


> For one thing, this topic assumes that the Imperium has gained the ability to traverse the Webway. This addresses one of Commorragh's most significant advantages: its galactic and dislocated scope and scale. It's not as if the legion in question would automatically have to enter Commorragh and focus all its efforts though one specific gate.


Just because the Imperium has the ability to traverse the Webway and find Commorragh once doesn't automatically mean that they have the ability to traverse every part of the Webway and find all (or even several) doors to it. 



> This would allow the theoretically superhumanly brilliant primarch the ability to plan and execute a multi-faceted approach to hitting the Dark Eldar.


Assuming he can somehow scout the city/world/worlds without anyone realizing, which is highly unlikely. And assuming they realize that the Dark City is not in fact a single region but can be separated.



> The permanent sealing of passages simply reduces Commorragh and only slows down the onslaught.


What about temporary sealings? How do you deal with the dead-end street you're not guarding actually leading on to a plaza brimming with enemy soldiers? Or chasing enemy raiders only to find yourself accidentally flanking your own team? You couldn't spread out to far for the risk of suddenly being cut off but you couldn't group up to tight for fear of loosing most of your army in one go. Then there's the risk of having enemy soldiers murder your reflection in the mirror or having your shadow straggle you in your sleep. The Dark Eldar are not limited to "cut and purge" with regards to their cities defense. Any invasion of Commoragh is an invasion of a place that can't be mapped, that doesn't have front lines or safe-zones. You'd have to be on full alert 24-7 and even Marines can't do that indefinitely. Invading the Dark City would be the worst kind of hell imaginable and while the Dark Eldar would bleed in defending it there is not a Marine who walks out of there with his body or his sanity intact.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Hmm Maybe... But I think vect would go shaa dom on their asses.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc,

I really don't want to get into what could be an endless debate because ...

(A) ... it's hypothetical. We don't know the answers to many of the questions we're posing. Also, ...

(B) ... my time is limited, what with a 3-day old baby in my household. :wink:

Let me at least offer you this, though - just as food for thought, not as a rebuttal. I have no idea how much knowledge of the Webway the primarch in question would have prior to invading Commorragh. For this debate to even work, that question would need to be answered first. "None", "partial", and "total" all point to three completely different answers to this scenario. Hell, "partial" could encompass anything from "just enough to get in trouble" to "enough to ruin the Dark Eldar for the foreseeable future".

And, probably just as important when it comes to dealing with the unforeseen circumstances that the Webway can impose on travelers: the Adeptus Astartes defend the length and breadth of the known galaxy by means of a travel mode that involves going through Hell. The "sea" their starships "sail" on is sentient, and everything in it wants to kill them. The Legiones Astartes _conquered_ the Imperium the Adeptus Astartes defend, under very similar conditions. I pose to you that Commorragh, despite being a place of enormous complexity and danger, does not exceed the size of the stellar territories a Legion would have conquered during the Great Crusade and mathematically cannot be more dangerous than the Warp and all its creatures, _which it was constructed to avoid specifically._


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I really don't want to get into what could be an endless debate because ...
> 
> (A) ... it's hypothetical. We don't know the answers to many of the questions we're posing.


Oh I agree, there's really no way to actually resolve this issue. I wasn't so much debating you as just posting my thoughts (your post being a convenient way to phrase my points).



> (B) ... my time is limited, what with a 3-day old baby in my household. :wink:


Congratulations! :drinks:



> Let me at least offer you this, though - just as food for thought, not as a rebuttal. I have no idea how much knowledge of the Webway the primarch in question would have prior to invading Commorragh. For this debate to even work, that question would need to be answered first. "None", "partial", and "total" all point to three completely different answers to this scenario. Hell, "partial" could encompass anything from "just enough to get in trouble" to "enough to ruin the Dark Eldar for the foreseeable future".


Agreed. All I'd say on this point is that it's more likely to be "partial" than "total", and more likely to be "just enough to get in trouble" than anything else.



> I pose to you that Commorragh, despite being a place of enormous complexity and danger, does not exceed the size of the stellar territories a Legion would have conquered during the Great Crusade and mathematically cannot be more dangerous than the Warp and all its creatures, _which it was constructed to avoid specifically._


It certainly isn't larger than the total territory conquered by any given Legion but I would expect it to occupy a greater area than most territory conquered at one time (or rather, be spread across a larger area). And it's a different beast from that simply because it's dimensions aren't really fixed. It's not like conquering a world or a system because it is both a world and a system, at the same time. You can cross the street and end up half-way across the galaxy, the Legions don't have any experience with that.

Certainly Commorragh is less dangerous than the Warp but then, the Legions have never made any attempt to conquer the Warp because it's impossible to do so. I imagine that fighting in Commorragh would be pretty much as close to fighting in the Warp as physically achievable though and would certainly be a far from mundane experience.


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