# Least wanted Legion/Primarch?



## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Greetings my fellow Heretics!
Now we have had many, many, maaaannnyyy threads on which Chapter/Legion would you like to be in or who is your favourite Primarch, but this is totally different!

So who is your least favourite Primarch and which Legion would you kill not to be in and why?

Mine would be:
Primarch: Lorgar....not a fan of religion and this guy is an evil pope
Legion: Iron Hands or Ultrmarines....First Primarch to die/THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THEM!!!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Primarch: Russ, barbaric savage on the surface- calculating muderous warlord deep down.

Legion: horde of undisciplined, ignorant mutants with the barest concept of honour.


(Ultramarines- no they just don't have a glaringly obvious defect unlike most Legions/Chapters)


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Theres so many legions I don't like, But for least favourite primarch would be angron, mainly because hes a nutter. Least legion would either be World eater, Death Guard, or Wolves. not sure which one i hate the most. (even though i actually like garro and bits of the DG pre Heresy fluff, their way of war is completely against my views)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Primarch..... god IDK that’s a tough one. Its probably a 3 way tie between Magnus, Horus, and Lorgar.

Legion: Word bearers and the Emperor's children.\

EDIT: Most hated legion would actually be the pretty marines(blood angels).


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

This is an easy one.

Primarch: Lorgar, not because he's a religious fanatic, but because he doesn't do anything after the heresy. Lazy Daemon Primarch. (Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Magnus come soon after Lorgar, since they do little as well). Angron on the other hand has done a lot to further the destruction of humanity, and despite my preferance for the Imperium, you have to respect that.

Legion: Black Legion: They may not be lazy, but they are incompetent. 13 black crusades and not 1 significant victory? The Imperium has done more to damage itself then these guys.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Primarch: Leman Russ, he is a hypocritical barbarian who is actually worse then the Orks. At least they dont have an excuse, their Orks. He is human, and a Primarch at that. He should have been better.

Legion: The Space Wolves, they are all superstitious space-puppies, as Madox put it. They are also hate-mongering and remind me a bit of Chaos Marines in some of their attitudes.


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## Championofvulkan (May 29, 2010)

my least favorite primarch i would say is angron why? He is just a barbarian at least russ had honor 

As for my chapters there are none i truly hate but would say that the ultramarines or the luna wolves


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Primarch: Gulliman.. because he doesnt have a talent/unique gift like all the other primarchs (you might say tactics.. but Horus and Lion were better than him at tactics), he sucks, and he loves himself..

Legion: Ultramarines... same reason as above


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Primarch: Guilleman as I didnt think he cooperated well with the other primarchs. I also believe in many ways destroyed the greatness of the imperium with making himself warmaster.

Legion: World Eaters or Blood Angels as you would go mad and lose your soul to blood lust.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Priomarch: Lorgar crazy religius nutter

Legion:Tough one but id say its Word Bearers, because of primarch


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Primarch: Gulliman... hes just so one dimentional and boring
Legion: Ultrasmurfs.... see above.


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Russ and the Space Wolves both. 

Drunk misunderstood guys out to have a good time or savage murders? Who knows. And really the 13th company? Really GW... The fucking Teen Wolf models.

Gayest thing since gay came to gay town.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

*Primarch:* Hmmm, Guillieman. Reason? No Gift, doesn't co-operate well with Primarchs...

*Legion:* Too Boring. 

-BoK


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

Russ and his lapdogs, anyone stupid enough to be manipulated into destroying a brother legion has no place at the emperors side. Ignorant savages.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

ouch! russ and his pups and gulliman and his smurfs arnt very popular!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Least favorites

Primarch(s):
-Fulgrim: (The spaz caved into a retarded naga like daemon when he couldn't accept the fact he killed a fellow Primarch), hell even the naga esc daemon that took him over is a lazy, ugly twat that just sits around all day.
-Russ: He is a psychopathic, hate mongering, madman that drove a entire chapter to chaos, and if not for the heresy probably would have eventually either rebelled against the imperium (And everything else including chaos) do to his retarded need to win at pointless pissing contests.

Legion: hmm probably a toss up between DG, and space wolfs. However as I have alliterated to before life in most space marine legions would be fairly horrible.


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## General Disarray (Apr 28, 2010)

smurfs and guilliman,
-one dimensional, boring, nothin to make them special in anyway at all (at least the wolves have personality)
-caused far too much antagonism amongst other chapters and primarchs
-almost caused another civil war straight afterwards with their insistence on the codex astartes
-cause of the stagnation of the imperium


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## genesis108 (Jul 29, 2009)

Primarch: Guilleman for pretty much the same reasons others have said. He is arrogant, not really unique in any way, and a complete douche.

Legion: Smurfs. They just have nothing going for them..they aren't space vikings, vampires, half cyborg, crazed lunatics hell bent on revenge against those that betrayed them..they're just so bland and boring with no personality or flare.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

Primarch: Lorgar, because he is religious

Legion: Ultrasmurfs, because they are sooooo normal!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wolves and Spacesmurfs are getting the shit kicked out of them. Lol Just to clear shitup the wolves were not minipulated nor did they drive anyone to chaos. If you read 1k sons they were already there.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

lol i already did havn't u heard of the IInd and XI...OOOOHHH Right... of course you haven't


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/2275200276_0239b9aab7.jpg?v=0

http://eaelupus.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/teenwolf.jpg

If thats not bad enough we have this ass hole riding his former life partner that turned into a dog because they don't have wolves on Fenris....

http://milsims.shopau.info/catalog/images/prodimg/img10688.jpg

So the savage or drunk lords of Fenris have a gene mutation that changes them into dogs... and then they get ridden by the guys waiting to change into dogs

Ultramarines are even cooler than these guys. 

Ok I'll get off my soap box now hah.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

This is hard, Logar for causing the whole god damn heresy by bieng weak enough to be manipulated by his underlings. Or Russ for destroying the 1k sons and driving them to heresy. 

Same legions as above primarchs. In the end i'm leaning towards Logar for causing the whole god dammed heresy.:ireful2::angry:


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## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

Primarch - Guilliman, because he has done nothing except destroy the might of the imperium after the heresy, he loves himself and he was unable to co-operate with the other primarchs because he couldn't bring himself to believe that he wasn't the most amazing and fantastic being to have ever lived.

Legion - Ultramarines. They played no part in the defense of terra(by the time they got there Horus was dead and the Emperor was a vegetable) and they then insisted on their primarch writing a book on how Space marines should behave.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Primarchs: Mortarion for his moaning in 1k sons, Dorn for getting killed by a non primarch (probably), his chapter half massacred by Perturabo and getting pwned by Night Haunter. Fulgrim for the whole perfection obsession.

Legions: Emperors Children because of their arrogance.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Primarch: Hm...its a tad tough but it'd have to say Guilleman because of his huge ass-hattery he did right after the Heresy. Let's see while all the actions happening on Terra, the supposedly largest legion during that time, the Ultasmurfs, are conviently on the other side of the galaxy being distracted by a relatively small contingent of Word Bearers (in comparison) who already lost one of their major ships. After all this he then writes a freaking book on tactics?!? I don't know but it all this seems ridiculous and out of everyone just seemed to take advantage of the situation to put himself in a prominent position.

Legion: Definitely Death Guard or Emperor's Children, Death uard since they really had no reason to rebel and EC cause they are REALLY f'ed up.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Grimskul25 said:


> Primarch: Hm...its a tad tough but it'd have to say Guilleman because of his huge ass-hattery he did right after the Heresy. Let's see while all the actions happening on Terra, the supposedly largest legion during that time, the Ultasmurfs, are conviently on the other side of the galaxy being distracted by a relatively small contingent of Word Bearers (in comparison) who already lost one of their major ships. After all this he then writes a freaking book on tactics?!? I don't know but it all this seems ridiculous and out of everyone just seemed to take advantage of the situation to put himself in a prominent position.


You mean after Horus, his commander, told him to assemble on the other side of the Galaxy because he was afraid of the might of the Ultramarines and their peerless general Guilliman. And then they were attacked by the majority of the Word Bearers Legion, the 2nd largest Legion. 

Then after he sacrificed most of his Legion over the years to keep the Imperium held together (after all the Scouring took at least as long the Heresy itself) he decided to alter the Imperium's military so the same sort of civil war couldn't occur again when Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were being mindless warriors rather than leaders. Guilliman only pressed for the separation of the Legion's into Chapters, he didn't attempt to force any of the Chapters to follow the Codex more than that.

The Codex itself wasn't based solely on Guilliman's view points, it was a tome based on the view points of all the primarchs (even the traitors- e.g Guilliman included strategies regarding siege craft provided by Perturabo).


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Primarch: Anyone who's read Angels of Darkness will agree that The Lion is the worst of the lot. Ever wonder why this peerless tactician, never before beaten in battle was slowed by the commanders of chaos reinforcements and a few rouge governors?

The reason he didn't reach Terra in time was simple: He was waiting to see who would win....

Legion: Space wolves. Even cultures that surrendered were destroyed by Russ (who was a close second to the lion) and his mutating sons. They are probably responsible for more damage to cultures than the World Eaters and Word Bearers combined due to their destructive and merciless regime and are no better than savages now.

Despite having the curse of the Wulfen no-one seems to care though which is odd as the Blood angels are ridiculed and they didn't anger the Inquisition after Armageddon. Its not really a point against them but it always annoyed me that they get off scott free with their uncontrolled werewolves where as the Blood Angels openly accept and deal with their turned Brothers by killing those turning, imprisoning the turned or even keeping them for one last fight and get more flak for it than anyone else!


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Codex itself wasn't based solely on Guilliman's view points, it was a tome based on the view points of all the primarchs (even the traitors- e.g Guilliman included strategies regarding siege craft provided by Perturabo).


The new book "Chapters Due" even suggests that average astartes had an input, at least by the 41st millenia. 2nd captain Sicarius of the Ultramarines claims to have written a verse or two.



Helsreach said:


> Primarch: Anyone who's read Angels of Darkness will agree that The Lion is the worst of the lot. Ever wonder why this peerless tactician, never before beaten in battle was slowed by the commanders of chaos reinforcements and a few rouge governors?
> 
> The reason he didn't reach Terra in time was simple: He was waiting to see who would win....


True, but that was according to Astellan who could be biased or at least opinionated.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Helsreach said:


> Legion: Space wolves. Even cultures that surrendered were destroyed by Russ (who was a close second to the lion) and his mutating sons. They are probably responsible for more damage to cultures than the World Eaters and Word Bearers combined due to their destructive and merciless regime and are no better than savages now.


I respect your opinion but you really need to read the wolves omnibus and A Thousand Sons..... they are far from savages.


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## Delta1 (Apr 5, 2009)

Primarch: lorgar or lion el johnson. lorgar because he caused the heresy, lion because he just wanted to join the winning side.

legion: emperors children.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> A Thousand Sons..... they are far from savages.


I think you could fairly easily write them off as savages if your basing the opinion off the sole account of _A Thousand Sons_.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Guilliman & his smurfs. Same reasons as others have stated.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think you could fairly easily write them off as savages if your basing the opinion off the sole account of _A Thousand Sons_.


No, there was far more to them than simple savages. It seemed to be that that was simply what they appeared to be on the exterior while inside they were something more than that. Yes they are brutal and vicious, which fits the def of savage I know, but by that you could characterize blood angels as savages.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Primarch: Leman Russ. Complete hypocrite and a superstitious savage.
Legion: Space Wolves just because of their Primarch. I really hate that guy.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

primarch: Lion El Johnnson mainly cos he is a back stabber who always wants to be on the winning side and the fact that if anyone annoyed him or came up with a better plan then him then they ended up at Caliban in exile
Leigon: hmm i would say dark angels mainly cos of thier secrecy and they remind me a little too much of the vatican ands its hoarde of secrets.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Primarch: All of them. They all suck and were flawed from the get go. Only one who might be good was the Angel. If I had to pick one I'd go with Fulgrim. A being so focused on being "perfect" that he falls to Chaos faster and easier then anybody else.

Legion: Emperors Children. Like Fulgrim they fall from grace so easily its disgusting.

Beings that attempt to be perfect, but break the easiest? Thats just weak.


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## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

Primarch: Magnus, and not because im a long time wolf player, he like most of his brother was arrogent, but unlike his brothers he broke the imperial palaces psychic sheild. bit of a stupid thing to do

Legion: that would be the Thousand Sons, not because of their primarch but their combat style, they sit of in the distance using their psychic powers to confound their enemy then they shoot them, in other words they are cowards.

And another thing, what the hell is everyones problem with the space wolves?? i mean savages, are you mad. Ok when they fight they fight hard but then so do most race. A savage has no honour, no rescept for althority, last time i looked the Space Wolves and Leman Russ for that matter had both of these (to the point where he was tricked by a man in a higer ranking postion than him in to trying to wipe out a legion).

You want savage go look at the World Eaters, how meny of them kill for sport??

You want brutes go look at the Dark Angels, i mean they torture there own gene line!!

The Space Wolves are Noble, Honourable, and Tough, like there name sake, any one who hates the Space Wolves because:
A) they are a Thousand Sons player
or
B)


> just because of their Primarch. I really hate that guy.


are in themselves hypocritical


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

WhoHitJohn? said:


> Legion: that would be the Thousand Sons, not because of their primarch but their combat style, they sit of in the distance using their psychic powers to confound their enemy then they shoot them, in other words they are cowards.


Cowards Or simply more intelligent than the mountain-men, no point running to death when its better delivered from afar.

All hail the crimson king!!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Brains has nothing to do with it. There isn't any honor in that type of warfare. But it was the only type they were good at I suppose. Lol


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## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

> simply more intelligent


how is it more intelligent, for one, i think im right in saying all races have long range weapons range weapons so its hardly intelligent to situate yourself so you can shoot at for enemy but then get shot for your troble, but it not just a honour thing ether it basic survivism;

Your Thousand son has a bloter and being as you don't like c.q.b (close qurters battle) lets say a combat knife, my Space Wolf has a bloter but also an axe (signiture when of the so called "savage mountain-men") , your going to try and shoot me, ill shoot back whille your taking cover ill close the range so i can hit you with my axe, you come out of cover, my axe hits your helm, splits its and you fall over dead 
Out of the 2 of us who has the more brains??


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Doesn't really work if you get badly perforated as you charge a stationary gunline. 
As for Primarchs, I have serious issues with religion so the EVIL POPE pisses me off a bit. But on the other hand without him and his legion there wouldn't be any chaos marines and that would piss me off more.
Peturbo irks me but i like his legion. 
I like Manus, even though he was the first to die he did come up against a demon enhanced primarch,so it is not entirely his fault.
However despite my well documented chaos leanings,Fulgrim irks me the most(closely followed by guileman)
As for a legion, the wolves. They are a bit too unstable, at least with angron's boys you have an idea of what they are about. BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Captain Stillios said:


> Primarch: Lorgar....not a fan of religion and this guy is an evil pope


 Is there any other kind of Pope?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lets not go to the religious insults.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Lets not go to the religious insults.


 If you find that the post in question is inappropriate and are butthurt enough to be angered simply report it and let the mods figure it out.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

While I love a pope joke as much as the next man (as long as the next man isn't gen.ahab apparently:biggrin I don't think of Lorgar as being a 'Pope' he seems to be pro-active, more like a crazy bible belt minister (he'd definitely fit in with the Westboro Baptist Church).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm not catholic, bordering on agnostic tbh, I don't feel as though religious insults are necessary. Unless its really really good. And TBH wasn't angered by your shitty little joke, tbh I heard better shit from a 4th grader, it simply wasn't necessary.


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## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

ok so with one Wolf and a battleline of Thousand Sons then yeah one Wolf is going to end up shot, but id bet your left lung he'd take a few of thousand sons with him, but the beauty of it is theres always going to be more than one Space Wolf, and as everyone knows when theres more to shoot at less get killed (less consontration of fire = less likley chance of a penitrating hit), plus you battle line is stationary, the Wolves are running at you, and they aint just running in a bullets path Khrone style axe in air scream, they are dodging, shooting back & waving their axes in the air, just face it in a one on one the Thousand Sons loose, ill grant you that in a squad on squad, then in depend on one factor: That NONE of the Space Wolves make it to the battleline if they do then the Thousand Sons are Screwed (with a captial s, as i think the american saying goes)

and although i, like the baron enjoy a good religious jokes, i got to agree with gen.ahab just dnt open the whole religious stuff, we don't need it, you don't want it, stop before something really stupid gets said


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

WhoHitJohn? said:


> ok so with one Wolf and a battleline of Thousand Sons then yeah one Wolf is going to end up shot, but id bet your left lung he'd take a few of thousand sons with him, but the beauty of it is theres always going to be more than one Space Wolf, and as everyone knows when theres more to shoot at less get killed (less consontration of fire = less likley chance of a penitrating hit), plus you battle line is stationary, the Wolves are running at you, and they aint just running in a bullets path Khrone style axe in air scream, they are dodging, shooting back & waving their axes in the air, just face it in a one on one the Thousand Sons loose, ill grant you that in a squad on squad, then in depend on one factor: That NONE of the Space Wolves make it to the battleline if they do then the Thousand Sons are Screwed (with a captial s, as i think the american saying goes)


Well, if I remember correctly, during the events in A Thousand Sons, there was an encounter with a group of spacewolves casually jogging up to the Thousand Sons battleline, getting blocked off by the Kinetic shield of the Thousand Sons. Then they got pretty well done in by the Thousand Son that suffered the flesh-change ("Perils in the Warp" ).

Compare that to Battle for the Abyss where the World Eater let his bolt pistol hang in favour of a storm shield vs the entrenched Word Bearers (keep in mind, this World Eater had not been informed his legion had turned yet, due to being way out of range for some reason.) and basically taking no real harm until he was in their midsts, churning them to pieces with his chainsword (at least I think it was his chainsword. Could be an axe.) This earned him some respect from an ultramarine, which I would suppose is no little feat 

And I also don't understand the hate on the ultramarines. Sure, it seems a bit fishy that Guilliman acted the way he did after the heresy. But who wouldn't? If you had a sizable 'empire' within the Imperium, and you could stabilize the situation you would do so. And after having half of his brothers betray him, causing severe casualties - including a full scale invasion of his 'empire' - you would be a little paranoid as well. He did what he thought was right, and backed it up with support. That takes some balls.

I also don't understand the notion of the Black Legion being incompetent. I mean, sure if you go by "Diary of a Chaos Space Marine" they could seem like it, but then Primarchs would mark the entirity of 40k as incompetent. I don't see any of the other Traitor Legions actually being able to do anything wortwhile (other than the whole Angron thing) to attack the imperium. They are to self-important and busy with the Great Game to ever be able to do something with the Imperium again. *Insert recruitment flyer for the Black Legion here* that is why most of the veteran space marines from other legions seek out the Black Legion, and fresh heretics seek them out as well. 
And as Abaddon said in Soul Hunter: "Are you perhaps part of my Inner Circle, to know what my goals and objectives are?"

As far as least favourite Primarch, I think it would have to be Fulgrim. He seems to be a little to reliant on Horus as a sort of mental crutch, if Primarchs are even vaguely in need of such, during the Heresy. And Fulgrim basically made me dislike his Legion more for what they were. 

For the Legion, apply above really


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Mortarion and the Death Guard. No reason really, I just hate them.

Fulgrim and the Emperor`s Children are a close second. Again, no real reason.


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

I already know I'm evil, but who knew I was the pope? AWSOME!


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## Leez (Jul 21, 2010)

Rogal Dorn, honesty is just another way to lie for the Daemon. Most corrupt Primarch ever.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

The Lion and his bunch of backstabbers closely followed by the control freak Guilliman & his sychophants.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Hhmmmm... I'd have to say my least favorite Primarch would be Jaghatai Khan. You hear next to nothing about this guy. He's like drywall filler. Important to hold the structure together but ugly and useless by himself. His Legion are wanna be World Eaters. Nothing makes them special. In a list of armies renowned for being ferocious in hand-to-hand combat him and his Legion are about as scary as those bunch of old clucking hens on the Veiw. 

How dare you guys slander Angron and Lorgar! :shok: Those 2 guys are what Chaos is all about! 

No other Primarch could ever best Angron in 1 on 1 combat. He was forced to join the Emperor. He wanted to stand and die with his brethern on his homeworld. That is honour, courage, and commitment to your brothers-in-arms. Yes, he is capable of extreme bouts of rage, but mostly in the battlefield where it serves a purpose and at his forced service to the Imperium. Though his devotion to Khorne hasn't helped with anger management skills :grin:

Lorgar is a genius. Is he resposible for the Heresy? Oh hell yeah! But he manipulated everyone to get there without most ever knowing it. He found the true power of the universe. Chaos and evolution instead of stagnation and ignorance under the Imperium. The Emperor deserved to die. He was an oathbreaker, a manipulator, a liar, and a tyrant. He was just using his Primarchs to pave the way to his accension to godhood and the elimation of the 4 Gods he made deals with but would not honour. Lorgar saw through all that. Though now he does seem to sulk alot lol.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The white scars are nothing like the world eaters. They used fast attack. And we don't know if Angron was the be all end all CC specialist. Some sources put that as Sang. Lorgar was a fool who couldn't function without a God to follow, he could do nothing on his own. He caused one of the single bloodiest conflicts in human history simple because his daddy told him off.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, considering Horus killed Sanguinius and no Primarch ever wanted to fight Angron, including Horus, I'd say that puts him at the top.

The White Scars do use fast attacks but they are known to use their assualt skills. Not their guns. At least that's pretty much everything I have ever read about them. It puts them at the bottom of a long list.

I'd say Lorgar having been chastized by the the Emperor for his fanatical worship and devotion did indeed have a temper tantrum. But it made him find the true source of power in the 40K universe. A secret the Emperor knew and tried to hide. The reason he forbade Magnus to further his studies. Something the other races of the galaxy already knew but the Emperor tried to keep his subjects ignorant and unaware of like some fuedal lord reigning over the peasants and forbidding reading and mathmatics. Ignorance is bliss, no? Easier to rule over your subjects when they are oblivious to the truth. Now, I'm not saying Chaos is a force of goodness and justice. But it is the force of creativity and evolution. Under Imperial rule the human race would have been a stagnant and doomed. Lorgar may have caused the bloodiest conflict ever, but he may have also saved the human race. Is it better to worship Chaos or spend your life working in a hive for nothing?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I am so tired of people going to the Horus beat sang thing. For Christ sake he was bloated with the power of 4 gods, he could have bitchslaped angron into the 61st m.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I am so tired of people going to the Horus beat sang thing. For Christ sake he was bloated with the power of 4 gods, he could have bitchslaped angron into the 61st m.


He could of bitch-slapped every primarch at the same time and knock them into the 61st m.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

True. Horus was the chosen of the gods. So it probably did play a factor in their battle. But I think if you look at Sanguinius and Angron and the legions based on them and their reputation, who was more feared? The World Eaters were the pinnacle shock troops of the Imperium. They did all the bloody work no one else could do. Or wanted to do. But even the boastful Leman Russ was awed/shocked by Angron and his legions capacity for violence and brutality on the battlefield. Russ pretty much thought of the Blood angels as the pretty boys.

Do I doubt that Sanguinius was one bad mofo? Hell no! :victory: But he was no Angron. I think that Khorne would have chose a different champion among the Primarchs if Angron couldn't live up to his standards of only rewarding the best in physical combat.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He was kind of the best champion khorne could get. Blood Angels are brute force with a mind behind it. Tbh they would a better fight than angrons legion any day. Angron was a brute and not much more in a fight. There is more to fighting than anger alone.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

A bit unrelated to where this thread seems to be going but I just feel I needed to explain my earlier choice. I actually don't mind the space wolves so much, it's just Russ's portrayal in A Thousand Sons pissed me off. I mean, the guy does his 'psychic scream' whatever you wanna call it, killing a bunch of thousand sons and reducing a bunch of other ones into drooling vegetables and then has the nerve to call out Magnus for fighting back and trying to protect his legion, not to mention a vast library that Russ seemingly wanted to destroy just cause he could (his reasoning isn't really explained other than 'I found it first so I can do with it what I want'). Not only that, he calls the Thousand Sons unclean sorcerers yet maintains his own rune priests in his legion.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Primark: Leman Russ. He hates psykers with a passion but still uses them in his Legion. What the hell? Also, that he somehow doesn't know that Rune Priests are Psykers just makes him an idiot. There's also the hinting that he himself is a Psyker.... What a complete hypocritical moron.

Legion: Space Wolves. Mostly because of Russ and the whole Rune Priest thing. The Black Templars might be crazy psyker hating pricks but at least they aren't hypocrites that turn around and use psykers in their army. And what's with naming most of their units after wolves? And riding wolves into battle? If the other chapters took their names that seriously the Salamanders would be riding giant lizards and the Imperial Fists riding giant rocket fists. It's just lame.


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## ownzu (Jul 11, 2010)

hate emo marines (dark angels) and there stupid primarch(wake up already!!) 
favourite has to be ums or death guard


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## klebold (Jul 17, 2010)

I really don't get the death guard. They are supposed to be drab, and just treat their profession like a job, what with their boss/dad being father time himself.

Either i'm getting the wrong end of the stick or GW decided to make the most boring legion possible. Flight of the Eisenstein seemed a little flawed because whenever you would read about one of the characters showing a flair of humour or anger, this seems to be at odds of their legion's character- ie force's lack of passion/personality.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Russ is a damned drunken, violent, conniving savage. He had pissing contents with everyone, and El'Johnson had to knock him the hell out. I wished it was Night Haunter who had done it, cause he would a gave him a couple scars to remember him by.

He was so drunk he tried to throw away the damned Spear of Russ. God-damn moron. I bet he is just lost somewhere in the Warp like to bonehead he is.

If I could wipe a Legion from Existence, his pack of mongrel, shape-shifting mutant curs would be the only choice.

"There are no wolves on Fenris" indeed, so they basically ride former mutated humans into battle and wear the pelts of HUMANS! A planet full of mutants and hypocrites. How come they hate witches and have so many Runepriests? Becuase they drink so damn much it turns magic into wolfcraft ?

I pray the day the Ordo Hereticus signs the Exterminatus on Fenris.

Hypocracy, your name is Leman Russ.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Hang on, didn't the Emperor command Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons? After the whole incident with Magnus using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' treason. The Emperor turned around and pretty much said "You're consorting with daemons and sorcery, that makes you the enemy." The Space Wolves were nearby, so they were let off their leash.

I've got a few primarchs I dislike. Guilleman tops the list for his overall douchebaggery; he was constantly at-odds with other Primarchs, constantly putting words in the Emperor's mouth and generally acting like he was Warmaster. Russ was an idiot and a hypocrite, he may have been strong of soul but he was weak of mind. Only by some miracle was he not swayed by Chaos. I'm a little torn on Perturabo, which is saying something as an Iron Warriors player. He may have wanted peace from the fighting, his distrustful nature causing him to endlessly fortify the daemon world he claimed; but overall he could just want to be left alone. Personally I want revenge on the Emperor, for almost grinding the Iron Warriors into dust, for running us so ragged that our own homeworld turned traitor.

For most hated Legion, it would have to be the Emperor's Children and their pitiful Primarch. Of all the Traitors, they fell the easiest and the furthest. Every other legion at least had a reason to rebel, the EC seemed to do so simply because they could. Much like their newfound enthusiasm for excess; previously they appeared to be a prideful and powerful Legion, when they were simply mindless children attracted to whoever would be nice to them. How appropriate their name is then.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, that isn't the official story but that’s obviously what was indented. He only needed Magnus alive, the rest were consorting with daemons(Maybe?) and participating in sorcery. That combined with the fact that the sons had already wronged the Wolf King virtually doomed the members of the legion.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

He needed Magnus, he also needed Magnus to be willing.

Slaughtering the Thousand Sons would not have accomplished that.

The original order was to bring Magnus back to Terra.

Horus changed the order to exterminate the Thousand Sons and their homeworld's occupants.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

nestersan said:


> He needed Magnus, he also needed Magnus to be willing.
> 
> Slaughtering the Thousand Sons would not have accomplished that.
> 
> ...


...knowing the Thousand Sons would turn against the Space Wolves, and side with Horus when the heresy came. Well, that makes sense.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The members of the legions lives were forfeit the moment the order went to the wolves, the emperor only asked for Magnus and the thousand sons were never going to let their primarch be taken by the Wolf King, even if it was willingly. They were going to die


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

The Wolves are noble and honorable and can be considered just and fair warriors. They are also drunkards who see themselves as better than everyone else because they come form Fenris and feel they are like wolves. They can fight well but they don't think well. The Luna Wolves would tear the throat out of an enemy and leave the world intact. Russ was Night Haunter without the subtlety. Oh and on the topic on not accepting surrenders, Perturabo did do that but he was only called in against fortresses so having that fear was a good way to save lives and time with a reputation that inspired fear, you have to break the men inside not the walls.

I think their alright and would love not to hate them but they're sooooo annyoing sometimes. In Tales of Heresy "Wolf at the Door" they showed brutality but also cunning and compassion. I don't want them like Thousand Sons or Emperors Children in their sophistication but like the Luna Wolves but more brutal.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Helsreach said:


> The Wolves are noble and honorable and can be considered just and fair warriors. They are also drunkards who see themselves as better than everyone else because they come form Fenris and feel they are like wolves. They can fight well but they don't think well.


Like I said; strong of spirit, weak of mind.



Helsreach said:


> Oh and on the topic on not accepting surrenders, Perturabo did do that but he was only called in against fortresses so having that fear was a good way to save lives and time with a reputation that inspired fear, you have to break the men inside not the walls.


Eventually he got sick of the whole siege and offering surrender parts and cut straight to the slaughterin'. Not because he's a bloodthirsty bastard, the long wait increased his risk of losing valuable marines; so many continuous battles put the value of the enemy far below that of his men, he eventually felt offering surrender wasn't worth it.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Primarch - Ferrus Manus (could i be more dull?)

Legion - Iron Hands (hey lets like machines a little more than the Iron Warriors but be half as cool)


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## dewn_moutain (Aug 7, 2010)

primarch- guilliman. self rightreous bastard. doesnt leave alot of room for a great idea on the battle field. always by the book

legion... ultramarines, for the same reasons. give me some space wolves any day of the week.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Let's just clear some shit up. The wolves arn't stupid. Russ was meant to come off as a savage brute but in reality he was a cold, calculating butcher. Ok... That's about it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

dewn_moutain said:


> primarch- guilliman. self rightreous bastard. doesnt leave alot of room for a great idea on the battle field. always by the book


Not really, the Codex Astartes encourages initiative

IA Imperial Fists.



> Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react


On topic I would have to say.........

Primarch: Lorgar: Started the heresy
Iron Hands: Too much mechanization for me.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Primarch : Fulgrim, Because Slaanesh is a weird sex pervert.

Legion: Emperors Children, Because Slaanesh is also a pervert.

:mrgreen:





-don't use that term unless you're referring to a cigarette
Baron


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

dewn_moutain said:


> primarch- guilliman. self rightreous bastard. doesnt leave alot of room for a great idea on the battle field. always by the book


Well that was a book written by the greatest tactical genius of the day excluding Horus. Russ on the other hand was a one sided as Angron. Roar at them, claim your planet will help you and charge into them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Its a tough decision. Almost all have their flaws. Definetly wouldnt like Lorgar as he's a religous nut job and cause for the whole heresy. Magnus, you just coulndt get any more arrogant, and then theirs the fact that he made a pact with chaos, Russ didnt force the 1K sons to chaos, they were well on their way there already. Night Haunter and Angron as they are both psychotic. Pertuabo by all accounts just bitches and moans and in a constant state of jealousy. Mortatrion just seems wierd. Fulgrim, seriously, where do you begin. Guilliman, like evryone said. But then again other Primarchs it would suck to be of course, Saguinius, sure your perfect and angel and unbelievably cool, but then you get brutally murdered in such a way it leaves a psycic imprint on all your descendent. Horus, well you get obliterated.

Legions. Smurfs evrytime, but then so many others aswell.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Excluding Horus and the lion. Bother were better tacticions. Guilly was the best strategist.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Horus. Little knobjockey, riding on promises and a prayer.

And Alpha Legion. Sorry, but trickery and deceit doesn't sit well with me. I'm all for tactics, but spies just get really on my grill, and having found interpreters in my own job as double agents, puts the shits up me.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Let's just clear some shit up. The wolves arn't stupid. Russ was meant to come off as a savage brute but in reality he was a cold, calculating butcher. Ok... That's about it.


If Russ didn't know that his Rune Priests were psykers even though their powers work the same as any other Librarian then he was an idiot. If he did know that they were psykers then he was a plane old hypocrite. Moron or hypocrite take your pick.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Primarch: Konrad Kurze, I HATE this guy! His arrogance astounds me, not to mention he achieved exactly nothing during the Crusade or the Heresy. What's the point of him?

Legion: Word Bearers....PUSSIES! During the Crusade they were crap, during the Heresy they had their collective butts handed to them! And on top of it all EVERYTHING is their fault! They're the Jar-Jar Binks of the 40k Universe.


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

Lorgar: Too religious.

Ultramarines: They are everywhere, movie, games, all boxes all spots and they are sooooo boring normal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Primarch: Konrad Kurze, I HATE this guy! His arrogance astounds me, not to mention he achieved exactly nothing during the Crusade or the Heresy. What's the point of him?


Not really arrogant compared to most of the other Primarchs. He achieved nothing during the Great Crusade? He single-handedly kept the Imperium from fracturing and splintering in many parts of the galaxy and would have crushed his fair share of Xenos civilisations and empires as well.

Throughout the Heresy? Well what did all the Primarchs do throughout the Heresy? We don't know much about any of them throughout the Age of Darkness as it stands. Although we do know that Night Haunter was sent into the galactic east to challenge the strongest Imperial strongholds in the region and to cover Horus' advance on Terra. Its also probable that Night Haunter is the reason why the Dark Angels were absent from the Siege of Terra.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uilleam said:


> True. Horus was the chosen of the gods. So it probably did play a factor in their battle. But I think if you look at Sanguinius and Angron and the legions based on them and their reputation, who was more feared? The World Eaters were the pinnacle shock troops of the Imperium. They did all the bloody work no one else could do. Or wanted to do. But even the boastful Leman Russ was awed/shocked by Angron and his legions capacity for violence and brutality on the battlefield. Russ pretty much thought of the Blood angels as the pretty boys.
> 
> Do I doubt that Sanguinius was one bad mofo? Hell no! :victory: But he was no Angron. I think that Khorne would have chose a different champion among the Primarchs if Angron couldn't live up to his standards of only rewarding the best in physical combat.


Actually I did read somewhere that when Horus was trying to tempt Sanguinius he said that he would be the ever favoured of Khorne and that's WHILE Khorne already had Angron.

As for the World Eaters being baddest Mamma-Jammers that's just not true. Who broke the siege of the Emperor's Palace? Blood Angels. Who was at the forefront of the assault and would have been the first ones to face the Blood Angels when they went Berzerk? World Eaters. The World Eaters were the most savage legion yes. But they were nothing compared to the unleashed fury of the Blood Angels. And Horus and Khorne knew it!


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not really arrogant compared to most of the other Primarchs. He achieved nothing during the Great Crusade? He single-handedly kept the Imperium from fracturing and splintering in many parts of the galaxy and would have crushed his fair share of Xenos civilisations and empires as well.


Er Proof? He couldn't even keep his own planet in order. Not to mention that when he was in combat he seems to have been kept on a tight leash and was in fact about to be called back to Terra to explain his actions. Where does this idea that Kurze and the Night Lords were hugely important to the Crusade come from?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Throughout the Heresy? Well what did all the Primarchs do throughout the Heresy? We don't know much about any of them throughout the Age of Darkness as it stands. Although we do know that Night Haunter was sent into the galactic east to challenge the strongest Imperial strongholds in the region and to cover Horus' advance on Terra. Its also probable that Night Haunter is the reason why the Dark Angels were absent from the Siege of Terra.


As I've stated before. Both the Dark Angels and Night Lords came out of the Heresy with something close to their pre-heresy numbers. There is no evidence thus far to state that Kurze and Jonson even engaged each other. All Horus did was warn Kurze that the Dark Angels were last seen in that part of the galaxy. If they did engage each other I doubt that both Legions would be so fighting fit after the Heresy. 

Remember when the Wolves, Angels and Ultramarines were Incoming at Earth they would have had to have enough forces at their disposal to worry Horus into making his grand gamble. We know the Wolves were battered from the Prospero/Alpha Legion battles and while the Ultramarines were damaged from the Calth Campaign they were probably still out numbered. That leaves the Angels having to make up those numbers they can't have been that badly damaged. 

As for the Night Lords in the period after the Heresy they were a massive threat on the eastern fringe since they were able to spread out over a massive area. This Implies that they had taken relativley little damage as well.

So far we have absolutely no proof that Jonson and Kurze even encountered each other!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

joechip said:


> If Russ didn't know that his Rune Priests were psykers even though their powers work the same as any other Librarian then he was an idiot. If he did know that they were psykers then he was a plane old hypocrite. Moron or hypocrite take your pick.


For fucks sake, he knew they were psykers and he didn't hate them or any other psyker. He hated sorcery.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Er Proof? He couldn't even keep his own planet in order!


Neither apparently could Jonson or Perturabo. The running os the Legions homeplanets(those that had them anyway) didnt really come under the Primarchs themselves too much for alot of them as they spent most of the time at the forefront of their expeditions


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Pretty sure gulliman was the superior tactician in terms of large scale deployment and long term standard warfare.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Actually I did read somewhere that when Horus was trying to tempt Sanguinius he said that he would be the ever favoured of Khorne and that's WHILE Khorne already had Angron.


I believe you are referring to the events of Signus Prime rather than when Sanguinius was confronting Horus aboard the _Vengeful Spirit_:

'...Join with me, join with Khorne! You can be his most exalted champion. Together we can defeat the pervert Kyriss and rule these worlds in the name of the Blood God!' - _The Horus Heresy Collected Visions, Page 177_.



Coder59 said:


> Er Proof? He couldn't even keep his own planet in order. Not to mention that when he was in combat he seems to have been kept on a tight leash and was in fact about to be called back to Terra to explain his actions. Where does this idea that Kurze and the Night Lords were hugely important to the Crusade come from?


It comes from the Night Lords _Index Astartes_ article, _Lord of the Night_ and _Soul Hunter_. 

For example:

'...This was an age when the Night Lords were the emergent Imperium's most powerful threat. A world resisting the Imperial Truth could be conquered by the drudging half-mechanical Iron Hands or the massed precision of the ever-loyal Ultramarines. It could be brought to compliance by the howling hordes of the Luna Wolves or the avenging wrath of the Blood Angels... Or it could suffer the crippling evisceration of society offered by the untender talons of the Night Haunter's sons.

Fear was their weapon. As the end of the Great Crusade neared, even as the Night Haunter's brother primarchs looked askance at their moribund, wayward kinsman, the Night Lords were the Emperor's most potent weapon. Entire worlds would surrender their arms as their scanners revealed that the Astartes vessels that had translated into orbit bore the runic symbols of the VIII Legion...

Their reputation was hard-won through hundreds of campaigns, unleashing their specific brand of terror upon those they conquered. It was never enough to take a world in the Emperor's name. To cement the Master of Mankind's rule, populations must be utterly quelled into obedience. Obedience through fear... In their wake, shattered populations lived the lives of loyal, silent Imperial citizens, never even whispering a word of rebellion.' - _Soul Hunter, Page 264-5_.

All three sources talk about Night Haunter shedding what remained of his humanity in order to serve the Emperor. To become the evil that the Emperor couldn't be seen to be, the evil needed to destroy evil. Entire systems would give up rebellion at the mere rumour of a Night Lords strike force nearby. Through fear, Curze held the seams of the Imperium together. Such fear was created with excessive and extreme methods, methods which were apparently sanctioned by the Emperor all along (not publically though of course), it was when the Emperor betrayed Curze by recalling him to Terra to suffer chastisement that the Night Lords grew bitter and eventually passed into exile (following the events of _Dark King_).



Coder59 said:


> As I've stated before. Both the Dark Angels and Night Lords came out of the Heresy with something close to their pre-heresy numbers. There is no evidence thus far to state that Kurze and Jonson even engaged each other. All Horus did was warn Kurze that the Dark Angels were last seen in that part of the galaxy. If they did engage each other I doubt that both Legions would be so fighting fit after the Heresy.


ADB has already confirmed that that the Dark Angels and Night Lords certainly did engage one another during the Heresy. In fact that is what his short story revolves around for the upcoming Horus Heresy anthology _Age of Darkness_.

And in regards to their Legions being 'fighting fit' post-Heresy. Well even after the devastating war at Calth, the Ultramarines still maintained the largest and most powerful Legion by far. Such a feat can also apply to the I and VIII Legions.



Coder59 said:


> So far we have absolutely no proof that Jonson and Kurze even encountered each other!


There are all the hints and now of course Aaron has confirmed it.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Technically Calth never happened since the reporter turned out to be a member of the cult of the hydra. Just speculation though.


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

from a story prsopective: 

Primarch: the emporer, because through his actions he drove both angron and lorgar away from him and into the manipulative arms of chaos whilst cooing over the one that ultimatley betrayed him. 

choosing a real primarch, khan: what retard chases dark eldar into the webway. it's like chasing a hundred shotgun armed thugs into a dark alley naked.  

chapter: i have to say the lamenters, the gormless idiots believed huron and are now 'cursed' because of it lol


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

They were part of the cursed founding so they always were cursed. Their curse was bad luck.


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## beast187 (Sep 6, 2009)

Prim: Angron- He's a whiny nutjob ( Tales of heresy? - almost kills Kharn while crying )

Legion: Alpha Legion - their not bad guys but have been coined traitor


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Technically Calth never happened since the reporter turned out to be a member of the cult of the hydra. Just speculation though.


I think you might have got confused. You must be referring to the Battle of Eskrador rather than the ambush at Calth.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Primarch - Corax/Vulcan. Both are just boring to me. Sure it's probably because no one has really written too thoroughly about them, but it is what it is. Prior to Tales of Heresy I would have said Lorgar, but after that short story he has become one of my favorites.

Legion - Space Wolves. I am just not that into Norse Barbarians.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> They were part of the cursed founding so they always were cursed. Their curse was bad luck.


Anybody else also think that this is really one of the stupidest pieces of background fluff ever. Black Dragons have bone growths, Flame Falcons burst into flames but these guys just shouldn't buy lottery tickets. A curse of bad luck. Really. WTF.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Annabelle said:


> Russ and his lapdogs, anyone stupid enough to be manipulated into destroying a brother legion has no place at the emperors side. Ignorant savages.


:goodpost: I......love.....you......

my answer:

Leman Russ is the real traitor

Space Wolves are Chaos Marines.

There I said it.


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

a loyal moron, is still loyal 




Chompy Bits said:


> Anybody else also think that this is really one of the stupidest pieces of background fluff ever. Black Dragons have bone growths, Flame Falcons burst into flames but these guys just shouldn't buy lottery tickets. A curse of bad luck. Really. WTF.


pretty much myoint


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Its stated in an old white dwarf article that horus trained all the primarchs in combat except kurze. And only 3 ever bested him, sang, russ, and one other whom I do not recall, mayhave been corax. But angron wasn't one of them.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Lux said:


> Its stated in an old white dwarf article that horus trained all the primarchs in combat except kurze. And only 3 ever bested him, sang, russ, and one other whom I do not recall, mayhave been corax. But angron wasn't one of them.


Don't really know what this post is replying to but, in anyways, Angron is friggin' lame. Out of all the known primarchs he's the only one that became the bitch of a bunch vanilla humans after the chaos gods scattered them. Not to mention the golden moment in _False Gods_ when the dumbass charges his forces into a trap, getting a bunch of rocks dumped on his head. Yeah, real tactical genius there.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> For fucks sake, he knew they were psykers and he didn't hate them or any other psyker. He hated sorcery.


I have a small confession to make, I haven't read A Thousand Sons but reviews of it on this website have mentioned Russ wanting to ban all Librarians/denouncing psykers not just sorcery but keeping his Rune Priests. Also there have been posts by multiple people in this very thread that mention Russ's psyker hating ways, I don't know why you only chose to disagree with my post.



Chompy Bits said:


> Anybody else also think that this is really one of the stupidest pieces of background fluff ever. Black Dragons have bone growths, Flame Falcons burst into flames but these guys just shouldn't buy lottery tickets. A curse of bad luck. Really. WTF.


I've got a soft spot for the Lamenters. They are the only Blood Angles successor chapter to eliminate the Red Thirst and Black Rage from their geneseed which is awesome. But that stroke of luck is balanced out by their misfortune everywhere else and now they are almost extinct. Fits well with the grim darkness of the setting in my opinion.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

the least wanted is the deathguard people avoid them like the plague but the plague isnt avoiding them!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

joechip said:


> I have a small confession to make, I haven't read A Thousand Sons but reviews of it on this website have mentioned Russ wanting to ban all Librarians/denouncing psykers not just sorcery but keeping his Rune Priests. Also there have been posts by multiple people in this very thread that mention Russ's psyker hating ways, I don't know why you only chose to disagree with my post.


Because, addressing every single one of them would be inefficient. He thought the sons and many of the librarians were messing with thing they aut not the be messing with. He believed the source of the rune priests power was purer in some form. If you read some of the space wolf books you find out that they have no problem with psykers in general.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Primarch: Leman Russ

Legion: Space Wolves

I don't really know why but I HATE them. I hate them SO much.

Space wolves are basically space vikings and are nearly as pointless as the space mongels.

And Leman Russ is an overall DICK.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> Primarch: Leman Russ
> 
> Legion: Space Wolves
> 
> ...


I don't know, I actually really like the modern-era Space Wolves. We need a chapter who's marines actually know how to have a good time and don't all have sticks up their asses "cough" Ultramarines. Not to mention they gave us one of the greatest characters of all time. Who dare stands before Haegr the Mountain? 

Have to agree with your view on Russ though.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I really like Russ actually. Sure he's a dick to Magnus and in Thousand Sons, but then it is all written from the view of the 1k Sons anyway, i imagine we will see a different side/angle to him in Prospero Burns. From alot of other accounts he seemed to be alright aswell. Dorn on the other hand....


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't believe anyone likes Dorn..... Getting his ass whooped by by the emo kid didnt help.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I don't believe anyone likes Dorn..... Getting his ass whooped by by the emo kid didnt help.


No, it really really didn't. It did make me like Night Haunter a bit more though.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Made me like Night Haunter a whole lot more!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Honestly, I can't really see anyone saying they wouldn't want to work for a certain Primarch unless he happened to be Angron or the Night Haunter. The rest are superhumanly brilliant individuals, with an awe-inspiring presence about them. The whole point of the Primarchs is that their personalities are so overpowering that you'd _want_ to be a space Viking, or a space Mongol, or a space Centurion, etc.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Because, addressing every single one of them would be inefficient. He thought the sons and many of the librarians were messing with thing they aut not the be messing with. He believed the source of the rune priests power was purer in some form. If you read some of the space wolf books you find out that they have no problem with psykers in general.


Guess I'll finally pick up A Thousand Sons and see for myself.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

A thousand sons really will give you an incomplete picture. Best to wait till prospero burns. Read the space wolves omnibuses, that should help.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Honestly, I can't really see anyone saying they wouldn't want to work for a certain Primarch unless he happened to be Angron or the Night Haunter. The rest are superhumanly brilliant individuals, with an awe-inspiring presence about them. The whole point of the Primarchs is that their personalities are so overpowering that you'd _want_ to be a space Viking, or a space Mongol, or a space Centurion, etc.


For the most part i would agree. Perturabo can get on that fuck off list aswell though, Mortarion aswell, the guys cool but from the Eisenstein i don't fancy being death guard much


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Least favourite Primarch - Angron, both pre heresy and post heresy, he's an idiot who killed loads of his finest warriors for nothing.

Legion - Pre Heresy = Emperor's Children, I wouldn't be able to stand their pompous arrogance. Post - Heresy = Death Guard as don't want to be full of puss etc.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Leman Russ and Dorn can go to hell for all I care.

But I don't see the problem with Konrad Curze. He had the admiration of the vast majority of his legion, so he must be doing something right.

For me, it basically boils down to a few I like/love, a few I dislike/hate and the rest I feel indifferent towards (A la Ferrus, the Khan and Vulkan).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tyrannus said:


> Leman Russ and Dorn can fuck off for me.


 you may want to rethink that sentence. Lol




Tyrannus said:


> But I don't see the problem with Konrad Curze. He had the admiration of the vast majority of his legion, so he must be doing something right.


If that is the determining factor then they all were super awesome.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Tyrannus said:


> But I don't see the problem with Konrad Curze. He had the admiration of the vast majority of his legion, so he must be doing something right.


He can't have been doing that well, his Legion loved him but he hated his Legion.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> He can't have been doing that well, his Legion loved him but he hated his Legion.


On the contrary; it means he did well enough that even though he hated his legion, they still loved him :laugh:.

And I mention Curze because someone posted that they wouldn't follow were Angron and Curze, and I thought Curze surely couldn't have been bad as Angron.

Edit: I see your point about the odd wording of the sentence and I have edited it lol


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Primarchs?*

Based on reading the HH series (nearly finished 1000 sons) I find I can only base an opinion on what I have read so far. One problem arises from the books is that as they are coming out they are improving enormously in quality so some of the earlier books leave a poorer picture.
But so far;

Horus - not impressed, seemed ok before turning, didnt put up a fight or an arguement about turning and killed the loyalist part of his and other legions mercilessly. His legion also turned too easily.

Fulgrim - before turning seemed highly intelligent but a political fop, will go with the flow after Horus becomes warmaster. After turning he is a bit of a joke sadly, one second of last regret nearly redeeming him then he is snuffed out and possessed.

Mortarion and Perturabo fleeting bit parts and too little to base an opinion.

Ferrus Manus - small part but seems a fine Primarch.

Lion El’Jonson - Seems an excellent Primarch his relationship with Luther and both having secret and darker sides and unknown agendas adds great possibility of depth.

Alpharius and Omegon - Absolutely enjoyable, an intelligent twin primarch and legion with a twist to their reasons for changing allegences.

Lorgar - From what I have read a really interesting Primarch with a massive role and large personality to match.

Magnus - Arrogant perhaps but brilliant on all levels.

From what I can deduce there are two kinds of Primarchs emerging, one dimensional bit part players and really major players in the 30k drama, also the cookie cutter, off the peg raving madman style of portraying chaos marines may have to change in future as the depth of drama with some of the Primarchs, even those who choose chaos, does not jell with the highly intelligent charactors that are involved. Their fall is tragic and their personalities are not all those of raving monsters at all.

The remaining Primarch have had little or no mention.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

So, after all of that, you completely sidestepped the question? Lol


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MuSigma said:


> Based on reading the HH series (nearly finished 1000 sons) I find I can only base an opinion on what I have read so far. One problem arises from the books is that as they are coming out they are improving enormously in quality so some of the earlier books leave a poorer picture.
> But so far;
> 
> Horus - not impressed, seemed ok before turning, didnt put up a fight or an arguement about turning and killed the loyalist part of his and other legions mercilessly. His legion also turned too easily.
> ...


Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius and Corax have all been in the books to.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> So, after all of that, you completely sidestepped the question? Lol


Yep Sorry.
How about Mortarion cos he keeps playing the "pull my finger joke" on the other Primarchs and farting poisonous gas that makes them wretch.

Seriously everyone has favourites, but most primarchs arent getting any chance to be developed charactors. What about poor Ferrus Manus he is already dead after one battle. Until they are all truly fleshed out its difficult to say. What you can say is there are some Primarchs we love and some we love to hate and some others who are left out on the bench and never get to be fully known about. 
Corax 
Manus
Vulkan
Kurze (he is only famous for allowing himself to be killed, his one big scene)
The Khan
and to a lesser extent
Mortarion
Perturarbo
Fulgrim
Are never going to be the big players sadly.
So the the least wanted Primarch is a kind of booby prize for all the not very important Primarchs who werent big players in the HH and pick one for a hornorary mention. So I pick Corax (or Manus/Vulkan) as the obviously least wanted Primarch(s) because I would like to see that rectified (unlikely).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax had an audio book (Raven's Flight) on him during his flight from Istvaan which gives some insight to him. Mortarion was in Flight of the Eistenstein briefly, but you got the idea based on those around him. Fulgrim had a whole book written on him so he's been fleshed out loads. Curze was in the short story The Dark King as well as briefly mentioned in the Lightning Tower, in The Dark King it gives you a good insight and there are the other night lord books that talk about him.

I'm assuming Vulkan may get a book or an audio book on him, Khan will probably get one of the Siege of Emperor's Palace books. Ferrus had enough time in Fulgrim as well as recently in The First Heretic so he's sorted.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

After reading your comments Word_of_Truth I am beginning to see a picture emerging, and the conclusion is how the hell did the Heretics loose, the loyalist Legions have lost their Primarchs, the Emperor lies half dead and sometime later the Legions are broken up into Chapters, the only weakness chaos has are the gods they worship are idiots. Only 2 traitor Primarchs are dead Horus and Kurze. It seems worshipping chaos has stripped the traitor legions of their martial organisational skills and made them stagnate and fight and betray each other.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MuSigma said:


> After reading your comments Word_of_Truth I am beginning to see a picture emerging, and the conclusion is how the hell did the Heretics loose, the loyalist Legions have lost their Primarchs, the Emperor lies half dead and sometime later the Legions are broken up into Chapters, the only weakness chaos has are the gods they worship are idiots. Only 2 traitor Primarchs are dead Horus and Kurze. It seems worshipping chaos has stripped the traitor legions of their martial organisational skills and made them stagnate and fight and betray each other.


They've not done any books on the loyal legions, they're only additions to books on to the heretic legions or small audio books in the case of the Raven Guard. The lightning tower is only a short story based on Rogal Dorn, the first loyalist legion to have a real book will be the Space Wolves I think. There is of course the Dark Angels pairing and although they ended up "loyal" the whole narrative of the books are anything but a traditional loyal display.

Blood Angels and Iron Hands got part of Fulgrim and Blood Angels were in one of the Horus books to. 

Imperial Fists got part of flight of Eistenstein. 

Raven Guard and Ultramarines got a little bit of The First Heretic. 

Space Wolves got a bit of A Thousand Sons. 

Vulkan was mentioned in Fulgrim but Salamanders didn't get much of a description. 

Pertruabo, Curze and Alpha Legion got further mentions in The First Heretic but only Curze actually said anything.

I think the final part of the series will dwell heavily on the Loyalist Legions, White Scars and the Khan should definately get a book, Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius may share one. 

Ultramarines may get a large majority of the next Word Bearers book.

After recapping all this, it's actually fairly surprising the amount of info on the Primarchs you can find throughout these books despite not many of them having them as the the central figure.

Up to this date though the Primarch that annoys me the most is Angron. He has like an inch of honour in his body the rest is 1 dimensional berserker craziness, makes me respect Night Haunter a lot more since he's equally as destructive but also cold and calculated.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Up to this date though the Primarch that annoys me the most is Angron. He has like an inch of honour in his body the rest is 1 dimensional berserker craziness, makes me respect Night Haunter a lot more since he's equally as destructive but also cold and calculated.


You can't really blame Angron for that. Every time he tries to form some complex thoughts the 'Butcher's nails' in his head make him go ape-shit. I mean, I myself don't like the guy but he did have his moments. Like when he pretty much told Eidolon that he's inferior and should go fuck himself at that one war council when Eidolon was Fulgrim's proxy (I personally think he should have ripped Eidolon's spinalcord out through his ass) or when he busted out from under a few thousand tons of rock while screaming like the incredible hulk.


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## Leman-russ (Mar 8, 2009)

Horus: had potential to be greatest but after all become spoiled child.

legin: iron hands i like machines but they oppression is just annoying.
if you were week in flesh you will be still week in metal.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Like when he pretty much told Eidolon that he's inferior and should go fuck himself at that one war council when Eidolon was Fulgrim's proxy (I personally think he should have ripped Eidolon's spinalcord out through his ass.


Definetly a crowning moment of awsome.

Well Sanguinius will no doubt be covered in great length in the Blood Angels book. The Lion to me is a concrete loyalist, and Russ will be fully covered in Prospero Burns. Dorn has had quite alot of 'screen time' through the various books, unfortunaetly making him appear more of a dick almost every time. And Battle for the Abyss was pretty much a loyalist book.

I would like to see a Raven Guard book aswell as a White Scars one. I thought before that every legions was going to get its own book but apparently they won't be, which is a pity as i was hoping to see all the primarchs background stories or actions prior to the heresy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Russ will be fully covered in Prospero Burns.


 No, he wasn't. We got snippets of who he was but it was all seen through the eyes of a legion who hated him. Not really a complete picture.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Up to this date though the Primarch that annoys me the most is Angron. He has like an inch of honour in his body the rest is 1 dimensional berserker craziness, makes me respect Night Haunter a lot more since he's equally as destructive but also cold and calculated.


Have you read _After Desh'ea_? If anything, it portrays Angron as the opposite of how you just described him.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> No, he wasn't. We got snippets of who he was but it was all seen through the eyes of a legion who hated him. Not really a complete picture.


That was A Thousand Sons gen, he said Prospero Burns the book from the SW point of view.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Have you read _After Desh'ea_? If anything, it portrays Angron as the opposite of how you just described him.


I'm assuming this is the one where the Emperor kid naps him and he kills a lot of his best men?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> That was A Thousand Sons gen, he said Prospero Burns the book from the SW point of view.


What he said ^^


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'm assuming this is the one where the Emperor kid naps him and he kills a lot of his best men?


One of the shorts in _Tales of Heresy_, based around Angron's Legion meeting him for the first time after the Emperor 'kidknapped' him yes.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

Primarch: Gulliman
Easily the most dickish superhuman in a group of superhuman dicks. He's always arrogant and makes no effort whatsoever to try and parlay with anyone, it's his way or no way. He most likely single-handedly drove Alpharius from the emperor, why would Alpharius ever stand at the side of some aspie dick who would just say "I could have done it better. Blahblahblah wankwankimatacticalgeniuswank"

Legion: Space Wolves
Sup gais we ruined 40k metagame with ig and blood angels. Oh and we're ignorant hypocritical diaper-eating savages. YEEEEAH!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One of the shorts in _Tales of Heresy_, based around Angron's Legion meeting him for the first time after the Emperor 'kidknapped' him yes.


That was the inch of honour I was referring to, the only thing I liked was that he wanted to die with his men. I won't spoil what happens next but lets say it made him look worse in my eyes.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Alpha Legionnaire said:


> Primarch: Gulliman
> Easily the most dickish superhuman in a group of superhuman dicks. He's always arrogant and makes no effort whatsoever to try and parlay with anyone, it's his way or no way. He most likely single-handedly drove Alpharius from the emperor, why would Alpharius ever stand at the side of some aspie dick who would just say "I could have done it better. Blahblahblah wankwankimatacticalgeniuswank"


While i dislike Guilliman as much as the next guy, you can't really blame him for Alpharius turning, not if you've read Legion anyway


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That was the inch of honour I was referring to, the only thing I liked was that he wanted to die with his men. I won't spoil what happens next but lets say it made him look worse in my eyes.


I interpreted it completely differently, I think it gave depth to Angron's character and justified his excessive anger. Angron has the potential to be one of the most interesting primarchs, and I think _After Desh'ea_ started to scratch away at the stereotype of him merely being a mindless berserker. Hopefully it was only the first step on the road to explore Angron's high potential character and mindset.



Angel of Blood said:


> you can't really blame him for Alpharius turning, not if you've read Legion anyway


Exactly, in _Legion_ Alpharius notes that he simply ignores Guilliman.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> That was A Thousand Sons gen, he said Prospero Burns the book from the SW point of view.


Oh for fucks sake.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I interpreted it completely differently, I think it gave depth to Angron's character and justified his excessive anger. Angron has the potential to be one of the most interesting primarchs, and I think _After Desh'ea_ started to scratch away at the stereotype of him merely being a mindless berserker. Hopefully it was only the first step on the road to explore Angron's high potential character and mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, in _Legion_ Alpharius notes that he simply ignores Guilliman.


Yeah I was surprised that he had some good fellings but I then dismissed them when I saw what he did in the other novels he popped up in


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That was the inch of honour I was referring to, the only thing I liked was that he wanted to die with his men. I won't spoil what happens next but lets say it made him look worse in my eyes.


What you also need to take into account is the fact that Angron was born into violence. Even as little Ang he got jumped by a bunch of eldar who tried to kill him. Then, after that he was enslaved and forced into a world of constant combat and bloodshed for the amusement of others, so the only way he had of judging the value and character of other individuals was through their fighting prowess. Then if you take into account the neural implants he received and what the Emp did when he found him, I can fully understand why he acted the way he did in _After Desh'ea_.




Alpha Legionnaire said:


> "I could have done it better. Blahblahblah wankwankimatacticalgeniuswank"


LOL, might not be why Alpharius turned but it's still funny.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angron could of had it all fixed tho but turned it down, he would still of been aggressive but at least it would of been controlled aggression, which is better than full out mindless. Oh well he serves a purpose I guess, the fact the Emperor would rather tell Lorgar off than him is funny tho.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> the fact the Emperor would rather tell Lorgar off than him is funny tho.


I have to agree with that one. If he'd told off Angron he probably would had to replace some broken furniture. Tell off Lorgar and he kicks off the heresy.


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## Fluff Master (Nov 11, 2008)

How can I go past Fulgrim? He's just so "Ooh, I'm so much better than you and everyone loves me because I'm so awesome!". Honestly! And then, going from the book Fulgrim, he turns on the Emperor, feels bad about it, kills his brother, feels bad about that, gives himself to a demon and then is trapped in his own mind. What an idiot!


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

You know A-D-B (the Black Library author) has said that if he were to write a 40k novel based upon the World Eaters he would make it heavily gladitorial in style.

Meaning it's kind of like the old Roman gladiators, with the ritual as much as the killing. Or at least something to that effect.

In saying that Iron hands are rubbish becuase we know so little about them, and what we do know sounds .... rubbish.

Ultramarines are boring a**holes and so is their Primarch (I'd have punched him as well lol)

The Black Legion neeed to expanded a little bit more as they reak of failure ATM and so does Abaddon, but I really feel that's not the case.

That's just my opinion though. 

So it's obviously right. :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> You know A-D-B (the Black Library author) has said that if he were to write a 40k novel based upon the World Eaters he would make it heavily gladitorial in style.
> 
> Meaning it's kind of like the old Roman gladiators, with the ritual as much as the killing. Or at least something to that effect.
> 
> ...


You know, if Angron was closer to Dorn than Horus I doubt he would of joined the Heresy. Both him and Dorn share a lot of similiar characteristics, such as honour, trial by combat etc.

I think Dorn would of kept him on a tighter leash than Horus did.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I just don't see what the Emperor *did* to Angron.

"After Desh'ea" is quite clear on what occurred. Angron and his remaining followers were cornered, and were preparing for their last stand. The Emperor appeared with his Custodes, via teleportarium. It's up to the individual to interpret whether Angron's implants kicked in unconsciously or whether he felt his oppressors had sprung an ambush, but what's next is not up for debate: Angron killed a Custodes in a berserker rage, which prompted the Emperor to put him down psychically.

It is implied that Angron next awoke aboard an Imperial starship and that, in his absence, his followers had died. Now, it could very well have been that the Emperor and his Custodes simply zipped out with their prize (Angron) in hand. Heck, there may very well have been an altercation between them and Angron's followers, and either side may have pulled the trigger first. Either way, Angron's followers are implied to have eventually died at the hands of that world's powers.

The Emperor did nothing to Angron. It was a tragic mistake, no more Angron's (who can't exactly be described as sane or in control of his fits) than the Emperor's (who could not have anticipated a berserker charge and his champions dying next to him).

Angron's subsequent resentment toward the Emperor, however, is wrongly placed, and most likely due to his psychological imbalance.

Where Konrad Curze is concerned, I think it comes down to the duality of his character/being. Konrad Curze probably hated what his Legion had become (he is quoted as saying just that in "Soul Hunter"), but the Night Haunter very likely reveled in it, and what all about the influx of hard-cases and murderers in its ranks.

My least favorite Primarch?

Until we see any material that might salvage him... Jaghatai Khan. Right now, he is nothing but a faceless clone of Temujin/Genghis Khan, but named after a subordinate of that great conqueror. He has no character, only slightly more depth, and little more besides.

I'm not saying he couldn't become much more given the right treatment, but, as of right now, he is simply a no-factor in my eyes. Not a great hero, not a great villain, not a great anything.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I just don't see what the Emperor *did* to Angron.
> 
> "After Desh'ea" is quite clear on what occurred. Angron and his remaining followers were cornered, and were preparing for their last stand. The Emperor appeared with his Custodes, via teleportarium. It's up to the individual to interpret whether Angron's implants kicked in unconsciously or whether he felt his oppressors had sprung an ambush, but what's next is not up for debate: Angron killed a Custodes in a berserker rage, which prompted the Emperor to put him down psychically.
> 
> ...


Lets look at the scene with a different perspective.

Angron has been fighting his former masters with his comrades for weeks (or months? its been awhile since I read the story), and just when the last, epic battle was to be fought, when they are prepared to fight to the death and die with pride, suddenly a lord-looking guy in golden armour appears with bodyguards right next to him out of nowhere. No wonder Angron killed one of the Custodes. Then Big E, being the best dad in the world, knocked him out, took Angron with him and left his brothers and sisters to die. He was powerless to help those closest to him and was stuck in a spaceship's room for with no explanation. There he went crazy on the furniture and poor Kharn, who was the only one at hand who could shed some light on why did things turned out the way they did. But no explanation brings back those you've been fighting alongside with. They're dead because Angron wasn't there and because the Emperor left them there to die, even though he could have saved them without moving a finger.

If you can call it a "tragic mistake" with this in mind you really need to work on your empathy.

You do realise that you hate the Khan because there isn't much to read about him? Or rather, do you realise how completely unfair and childish that is? He and his lads were there at the Imperial Palace, fighting to the last man alongside the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists. This alone deserves enough respect that you shouldn't look down upon not only the Legion but their Primarch.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Khan is also described as a Master swordsmen.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> You do realise that you hate the Khan because there isn't much to read about him? Or rather, do you realise how completely unfair and childish that is? He and his lads were there at the Imperial Palace, fighting to the last man alongside the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists. This alone deserves enough respect that you shouldn't look down upon not only the Legion but their Primarch.


How was _P_ being childish? All he said was that because so little information exists (and what does exist isn't interesting in the slightest) on the Khan is why he is his least favourite Primarch - which is entirely justifiable. He didn't state he hated him at all, I think if anything you are the one being childish for attacking _P_ for no reason.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> No wonder Angron killed one of the Custodes. Then Big E, being the best dad in the world, knocked him out, took Angron with him ...


What was the Emperor supposed to do, though? One of the twenty most powerful beings in the Galaxy besides himself charged him in a berserker rage. Should he attempt to reason with him? To talk him down?



> ... and left his brothers and sisters to die.


See my answer in the preceding post. It might have been this simple; or it might have been Angron's own people acting like their master did--they, too, had the funky implants.

Either way, my point is that it was a tragic situation. Angron's anger at his father, though, is the product of a damaged mind. What does his argument boil down to? How dare you teleport down here and then not kill me? Thanks for not helping my followers who may or may not have also opened fire on you?

And that's the crux of my argument. Most of the complaints I see leveled against the Emperor assume he just left Angron's people to die. Again, though, those were gladiators fitted with rage-implants. What do you think the odds were that they just sat there and did nothing? With no prior knowledge of what was going on, what was the Emperor going to do? Randomly help people who most likely shot at him? That's all based on my opinion, of course, but I think the odds of berserker-gladiators not going nuts like Angron did are pretty low!



> You do realise that you hate the Khan because there isn't much to read about him?


Yes, I stated as much.



> Or rather, do you realise how completely unfair and childish that is?


Yes, and the amount is "not at all". I hope! :biggrin:

This is *fiction,* after all. People enjoy characters in fiction on the basis of how well-developed they are. That, whether a character is a hero or a villain. When, in fiction, a character suffers almost completely from a lack of development, there is very little motivation to like said character.

A childish reaction, if you want to go there, would be someone saying "Oh, cool! A clone of Genghis Khan in the far future! Horses and swords!"

A mature reaction, in my humble opinion, would be "Hmm, there's really no character development here. Maybe I'll change my mind when a book is written about him and adds some depth, but until then he loses by default in the sweepstakes of 'likeable character'... *since he has no real character depth.*"

Wait, where have I read that before? Oh, yeah, in my preceding post. :grin:



> He and his lads were there at the Imperial Palace, fighting to the last man alongside the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists. This alone deserves enough respect that you shouldn't look down upon not only the Legion but their Primarch.


Are you seriously arguing that I should or should not like a fictional character on the basis of 1-2 throwaway background paragraphs that also contain no character development whatsoever (aside from the implications of valor)?

I could see how you might chastise me if I was somehow dismissing the efforts of some historical formation of soldiers that did something superbly heroic but somehow never got their time in the limelight. But this is _fiction._ As such, I am eminently justified in saying that, until he receives some depth, the faceless, un-detailed clone is less enjoyable/favorable in my eyes than characters that _do_ have depth and detail. 

EDIT:
Thanks for the support, Child of the Emperor. :grin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phobeus has already defended himself quite well enough from what you said Khorothis, i'll only add that you should probably read what he actually put instead of over-reacting and looking ironically enough, childish.

I agree though, both Khan and Vulkan are criminally undeveloped.

Literally in a nutshell what we know about Khan is, he's like a mongol, very tribal, likes horses/bikes/fast attack, was a master swordsman(not seen evidence of this, just heard), fought valiantly at the Siege of Terra and then chased the Dark Eldar into the maelstorm where he is probably now being tortured for eternity until rescue, dead or fighting a 10,000 year guerilla warfare(not so likely). 

And Vulkan? well he's really good at crafting stuff, has a penchant for fire, had a competition with the Emperor when he found him, lost competition, got owned at Istvaan, didn't like the idea of chapters, and then vanished. Oh, he's also the token black guy.

And while those summaries is in a nutshell and short, it's still pretty much it. The other primarchs we could go on for alot more about, but those two just have nothing really. It's hard to become attatched to a character when you have fuck all info on them other than what little others in the narrative have said and an Index Astartes article or two. Both the Salamander and White Scars desperatly need a HH book each along with the Raven Guard and Iron Warriors


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Exactly (in regards to them needing a book).

And, full disclosure, the reason why Khan ranks at the bottom even below Vulkan (who has just as little background) is because Vulkan is not as obvious a clone of a historical figure.

That's it.

Again, though, I completely agree that books are needed for these guys. The White Scars/Khan should be alright. They'll likely get a setup book, and of course there will be the Siege of Terra. Vulkan and the Salamanders, though? I fear for them. Isstvan has come and gone, and there's little room for them to get much spotlight/development now.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The lack of White Scars fluff does actually annoy me because I think reading about a Mongolian style astartes legion would be quite interesting. Also, I really hope that they cover the events of Signus Prime as I feel that the Blood Angels also need a bit more page time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Also, I really hope that they cover the events of Signus Prime as I feel that the Blood Angels also need a bit more page time.


Yeah _Swallow_ is tackling that (which I'm slightly dubious about). The working title is _Fear to Tread_.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Let's hope it's more "Flight of the Eisenstein" and less like his Blood Angels material...

... not that the latter were _bad_... it's just that I read them after FotE, and they were simply not as good.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> What was the Emperor supposed to do, though? One of the twenty most powerful beings in the Galaxy besides himself charged him in a berserker rage. Should he attempt to reason with him? To talk him down?
> 
> Appear between the two armies, tell the nobles to get out or face annihilation and approach Angron only once he assured him he has no ill intentions, perhaps?
> 
> ...


And thats all I want to say.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

My least favourite is and has always been Lorgar, he was just a crybaby narrow minded idiot who when he was shown was wrong allowed himself to be lead by petty minded religeous nutjobs like Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Can you imagine another Primarch allowing himself to be lead by his 2nd and 3rd in command just because the Emperor told him off? "The First Heretic" just made me hate him even more.

Legion - Word Bearers as they were nothing special tactically and were just the worst religeous zealots I can imagine. Think Al-Qaeda with genetically modified warriors.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> Appear between the two armies, tell the nobles to get out or face annihilation and approach Angron only once he assured him he has no ill intentions, perhaps?


You're imposing knowledge you possess, as an outsider looking in, to the Emperor's actions.

Use the context made available by the fluff. The Emperor had no reason to assume Angron would go into a berserker killing rage. Every single Primarch he had met until then, even the sociopathic Night Haunter, had been well-balanced and lucid enough to allow for (at the very least) something resembling civil interactions.

By contrast, there's no indication that the Emperor had any knowledge of the political happenings on Angron's planet. More on this below.



> As far as I know, it is said that the nobles cut them down. If this was just a cover story and the Custodes killed them all then its not helping either. Appearing in the midst of an army ready to fight to the death isn't clever, and if you die because of it you're getting what you deserve.


The nobles didn't cut Angron's followers down while the Emperor and the surviving Custodes were there. Nor is there any indication or evidence that the Emperor and the surviving Custodes killed Angron's followers. Even if they did, though, Angron neither knew nor claimed that the Emperor or his men killed them directly.

At any rate, with your final statement you are again imposing a context only a reader is privileged with. Nothing about Imperial starships sensors indicates they get returns like "there appears to be an army ready to fight to death on the coordinates you indicated your son may be." And, again, no in-story context existed wherein the Emperor should have been worried about a blood-bath. More below on this.



> He didn't know Big E was his dad when he appeared. He didn't know he was there to make him a general of a legion of his own sons. He just appeared out of nowhere far too close. You'd expect Big E to be more clever than that. And as far as I know, Big E didn't really care about Angron, he just saw him as one of his gene-kids who were created to be his tools to conquer the galaxy. He didn't really try to befriend Angron (nor most of the Primarchs, though).


Angron's reaction would have been the same if any individual had popped there. Expect the Emperor to be more clever how? What previous encounter with a Primarch should have led him to assume that one of his sons--crafted to be brilliant geniuses, most of whom had an _innate understanding_ of who he was when he revealed his true self--would be swinging first and asking questions later?

How do you befriend Angron? It's specifically qualified that he was permanently damaged by his surgery, consigned to a life of rage and fits that interrupted his thinking process. Not even Horus, whose charisma was legendary, and who courted him to join him in the Heresy was able to reach him on a meaningful level. The only people Angron loved and cared about were the people he identified with on an absolutely fundamental basis: his fellow gladiators, who suffered and were damaged like he was; and, eventually, his own Astartes, who, tellingly, ALSO underwent they same psycho-surgery as their master.



> Its not "assumed" because there is no info that says otherwise.


Actually, when you say something is assumed, you do so precisely BECAUSE all evidence points to it, even if it's not spelled out for you.



> Also, you ignoring the whole issue of leaving Angron's comrades in arms to die having an impact on his relationship with Big E leaves a huge hole in your argument.


No, I didn't; and no, it doesn't. I said it was a tragic situation because (A) it obviously affected Angron deeply, but (B) the Emperor had no way of knowing their meeting would turn to bloodshed and (C) more than likely, it's not as if Angron's men really gave him much of a chance to stick around or a reason to come back.



> ... since [the Emperor] had all the resources to gain the knowledge he didn't have (which is apparently the only defending argument), yet he was in a rush to conquer a galaxy that could have survived the extra 10 minutes it would have took to bring himself up to speed on whats going on down there.


Genuine question: how?

I'm not trying to condemn Angron's warriors for possibly attacking--I already pointed out that they would have done so only due to their implants. Thus, that's no issue. The rest of your argument is said paragraph falls apart, though, when you consider that no other Primarch or Primarch's faction (go figure, none of them were implanted with chips that had them go from zero to KILL!!! in less than a second) felt the need to attack on sight.



> If Khan is a clone than so are many of the Primarchs. Hell, the whole Horus Heresy is roughly Lucifer's Fall from the Bible.


I never claimed otherwise! :biggrin:

What I stated, consistently, was that every other Primarch nonetheless had more depth and development. And that is true. Name me one other Primarch that is so tied in to one culture. Guilliman comes close, but at least he summons TWO cultures and isn't named "Gaius Octavian". Corax even borrows lines from the poet whose works he lifted his name off of, but at least his Legion don't dress like 19th century Americans, and his range of activities goes beyond the poetry of Poe.

Even Vulkan, who has been as invisible as Khan, has more depth since:
1. He and his society are no a virtual photocopy of an existing culture, and
2. He's not named after the second most famous warlord from said existing culture.



> My problem is that you're calling him a copypasta without him actually making an appearance, his Legion a ripoff without having a book or two to give the readers a better insight to their character, and that you're disregarding the few facts and implications that exist for no reason whatsoever. A fair approach would be "There isn't much written about him or his Legion, so I withold judgement, but what little there we know about them sounds promising". And thats what I'm missing.


First of all, the onus is on the AUTHOR to provide proper character depth and development. I am absolutely in no way required to like a character that has neither, besides direct dies to a historic culture and leader.

You are absolutely within your rights to like the fact that a fictional army is based on said things, and to look forward to the day when they do get books. But that in no way objectively prevents me from saying that I don't have to like a character that lacks any depth or development.

Again, it's the author's responsibility to do this. Period. They, for a variety of reasons, have chose NOT to do this in the 20+ years that this game has been about and the 15+ years that books, articles, and all sorts of other fluff were written about the various First Founding Chapters.

Furthermore, I absolutely stated that my view may very well change if and when the Khan and his White Scars receive the proper attention. For right now, though, I don't think it's either bizarre or unfair that I enjoy those Legions and Primarchs I can actually read something about more so than those that there's next to nothing on.



> You do realise that this is a contradiction? You dismiss the deeds of a fictional character who is yet to get a book or short story written about him, yet you praise a set of fictional characters who have? Sounds exactly what I said: childish and unfair.


It's neither a contradiction, nor is it childish and/or unfair.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:

You: He didn't know!
Me: But he should have.
You: But he didn't!
Me: That doesn't mean he shouldn't have.
You: That doesn't mean he should have! Not a single Primarch attacked him when they first met!

While the White Scars/Khan goes like:

You: There is little to no fluff about them so I don't like them because they are obvious copypasta.
Me: There is little to no fluff to judge them by and what little is out there looks promising. Not to mention that lots of things in 40K are made of copypasta.
You: The other copypasta have more flavour, so I like them better than this bland, tasteless one. Its not even warm, either. Yuck.
Me: You're criticising a copypasta thats not even done.
You: Thats why I hate it.
Me: But that doesn't make any sense.
You: But it does!
Me: Okay, I can see how that makes sense but its still not fair.
You: If it makes sense its fair!

I feel no compulsion to continue this debate. I retire to do something more interesting.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:
> 
> You: He didn't know!
> Me: But he should have.
> *You: How could he?*


I hope you don't mind, I changed it for accuracy. :grin:



> While the White Scars/Khan goes like:
> 
> You: There is little to no fluff about them so I don't like them because they are obvious copypasta.
> Me: There is little to no fluff to judge them by and what little is out there looks promising. Not to mention that lots of things in 40K are made of copypasta.
> ...


The problem is that it IS done. It's BEEN done for decades. Where any additional, in-the-future material is concerned, I already stated that I could easily change my mind when new stuff is added. But I'm not simply going to ASSUME that said material will be better/more interesting than that which has already been done for other Legions and/or Primarchs.

Somehow, though, that point of view ended up being childish. Twice.

Have fun doing something more interesting!


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> I feel no compulsion to continue this debate. I retire to do something more interesting.





Phoebus said:


> Have fun doing something more interesting!



Well, that was anticlimactic.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:
> 
> You: He didn't know!
> Me: But he should have.
> ...


Let's get this straight, you call Phobeus childish for presenting a very well made and thought out arguement. And in response to said "childish" post, you go and type that? It's pretty clear who the childish one here is.

At no point does Phobeus even say he 'hates' Khan, he simply states that Khan is his least favourite primarch, with good reason, just because you may like Khan, doesn't mean everyone else has to aswell. And it's a completely valid point, in 20 years they haven't expanded on him at all, if anything they make him MORE like the Khan he is named from. And why is it such a wrong reason. So the other primarchs have elements of historical figures in them, but they have been changed alot and had more added in to distinguish them from whomever they have been losely based around. Khan on the other hasn't had anything else added to him at all, GW have pretty much slapped him down and said "here we have Genghis Khan....in space, enjoy" and done nothing further to develop him.

But then again you've already (childishly, again the irony here is killing me) decided to ignore any more posts in this thread so that you can't see how childish you actually look.


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## Krymson86 (Nov 9, 2010)

Least favorite Primarch: Fulgrim (Come on man, a fuckin sword is talking to you and you don't think something is up? Then you feel so bad that you tell this voice that you want out? Then you're surprised when a demon takes over your body?) Also, his whole attitude of trying to achieve "perfection," is a joke. The Emperor made you perfect for your task, be happy with it. 

Least favorite legion: Emperor's Children. These treacherous clowns were trying to improve on that which was already perfect, and as a result betrayed the Imperium. They can fuck off.


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