# =][= Rumours Roundup : Chaos Space Marines - Updated : 09/09/2012



## MadCowCrazy

Predictions Section

Rumoured Release Schedule
Q2-Q3 First 6E codex

General Codex Information
Author: Phil Kelly
State: Books is done
Other: Will be Hardcover

Legion Specifics
*World Eaters (Khorne)*
Marked Dreads
Daemon Engines
Khornate characters can nullify psychic abilities aimed at them
Get Bolters
Has to engage in some kind of combat every turn or suffer a random d6 penalty result
Can only have 1 Havoc squad, can take more by "trading in" something else
Having a Khorne Daemon Prince means no Scouts
"Gladiator Themed Unit" Must keep killing in order to stop a timer in their heads from killing them, might be related to the d6 penalty mentioned above

*Word Bearers (Chaos Undivided)*
Dark Apostles can be split off as squad leaders
Chaplains
Daemonancer (Unit champion)
Summoning Daemons from the Warp, allowed re-rolls to scatter and new mishap chart
Can take Marked units but with restrictions
Turn 1 Daemon Summoning
Can only have 1 Heavy Support choice but get other bonuses to offset this
Possessed as Troops

*Nightlords (Chaos Undivided)*
Hit & Run
Stealth
Counter Attack (For Elite Units)
Jump Pack
Can only have 1 Heavy Support choice but get other bonuses to offset this
Raptors are Night Lords

*Emperor's Children (Slaanesh)*
Lash changed to be more like Daemon version
More heavy weapons for larger units
Better bikes
Counter Charge
Higher Initiative
Chosen will be faster
d6 result said to be very harsh
Soul Shieldsman Unit, possibly an upgrade for Veterans
Sonic weaponry

*Deathguard (Nurgle)*
Feel No Pain and Blight Grenades for Terminators
Poisoned attacks ignore Armour Saves on a roll of a 6
Nurgle Flamers can be made poisoned 3+ or 2+ (possibly through a special character).
Plague Knives for Chosen/Possessed Poison 4+ Ignores Armour on 6s
Stoic special rule: Can't do sweeping advances

*Iron Warriors (Chaos Undivided)*
Terminators have access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Iron-Fire Cannon (Thunder Fire Cannon)
Chaos Marine squads may take an additional heavy weapon once past 10 models
Siege Specialists: Tank Hunters and reduce Cover Saves on enemy units

*Thousand Sons (Tzeentch)*
New Psychic Powers, one of which can remove an entire squad on a failed stat test
Mindless, need command figure or suffer a d6 result to guide their actions
Sorcerers get something similar to a Psychic Hood but called something else
Higher strength/lower Ap weapons
Relentless
Ap3 Bolters

*Alpha Legion (Chaos Undivided)*
Infiltrate upgrade for much of army
Outflanking
Temporary control of enemy squads/vehicles
Might be able to re-roll scenario
Greatest access to Imperial style vehicles
May force enemies to take Ld tests before they move or shoot

*Black Legion (Chaos Undivided)*
HQs allow broader access to all unit types, but lack of better universal special rule
Greatest selection of units/vehicles
All terminator army


All Book Specific
-Choice of HQ affects what types of units/marks available to your army
-CSM Retain Bolter, Bolt Pistol & Close Combat weapon
-New Heavy weapons, no Plasma Cannon
-Chaos units have built in negatives depending on God
-Rules for Traitor Guard
-Certain Named Characters grant various USRs and other special rules to Cultists when selected.
-Chaos units that kill a unit get to roll on a chart for gifts from a chaos lord very similar to the power from pain rule that Phil gave to DE.

HQ
2-for-1 HQ choices that can be split off, similar to Haemonculi, Priests and Wolf Guard

Elite
*Terminators*
-Cult dedicated lists only

*Cult Marines*
-All cult marines are Elites
-Special Characters unlock Cult Marines as troops (Kharn for Berserkers and so on)

*Chaos Dreadnought*
-Renamed
-Rules overhaul
-Remade into plastic
-No longer random
-Can take Marks
-Can't be Venerable
-Chainfist, Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge
-Said to be one in the 6E starter set


*Possessed*
-New Upgrades

*Chosen*
-More upgrade options
-Jump Packs
-Terminator Armour
-All types of Combi-Weapons
-Twin Lightning Claws
-Certain HQ choices may be able to take a Chosen squad as retinue

*Legion Specific Mounts*
Disc mounted Rubrics
Beast mounted Plague Marines
Seekers mounted Noise Marines
Brazen Knights
-Skull Champions riding on Juggernauts
-May be Apocalypse formation yet to be released

Troops
*Chaos Space Marines*

*Cultists*
-Said to be in starter set
-Typhus makes Cultists into Zombies, gain FNP and Fearless
-Can be taken in groups of 30+

*Scout Unit*
-Not available to World Eaters

*God specific Daemons*
-Same as Daemons codex but slight points adjustments to reflect the ability to summon them and 6E changes
-Lesser and Greater Demons are gone

*Rubric Marines (Thousand Sons)*
-New psychic powers instead of weapon options
-More upgrades for unit and Sorcerer

Dedicated Transports
*Rhino*
-3 Hull Points

Fast Attack
*Assault Marines*
-Can be marked
-Berserkers with jump packs

*Locust* (No FOC slot rumour, put in FA for the time being)
-Small, fast, single seater Chaos Flyer which features heavily in the Sabbat World's Crusade
-Chaos equivalent of an Imperial Lightning.

*"Dragon"*
-Flyer
-Model done and part of initial release

*Spawn*
-Larger packs and able to take Marks
-Replaced by "Fell Beasts"

*Raptors*
-Remade into plastic
-Night Lords only

*Bikers*
-Nurgle Bikes, have Stoic rule so may not perform sweeping advances (Wouldn't this make them T6? Now that'd be annoying to kill)
-Attack Bikes or similar may be included

*"Landspeeder"*
-Something "sort of" like a Landspeeder may be available

Heavy Support
*Slaughterfiends*
-Different versions for Legions and Marks

*Obliterators*
-Maximum unit size increased to 4
-May take none energy-based weapons
-Remade in Plastic or Finecast
-Options will be even more expansive with close combat load out available

*Daemon Engines*
-3 per FOC slot
-Might be a Tzeentchian one

*Landraiders*
-New Legion specific LR with higher transport capacity (possibly 15)
-Described as a "warped version of one of the Imperial versions"
-Version of Power of the Machine Spirit
-4 Hull Points

*Havocs*
-Marked Legions

*Monstrous Creature*
-Not Greater Daemon but can have Marks
-Not all Legions can take one, Night Lords and Alpha Legion can not

*Predator*
-More weapon options similar to Razorbacks
-Twin Linked Plasmagun turret with single Plasmagun sponsons

*"Thunderfire Cannon"*
-Legions may have access to a Daemonic weapons platform comparable to the Thunderfire Cannon (Iron-fire Cannon mentioned in the Legions section?)

*"Chaos Dreadknight"*
-Chaos answer to GK Dreadknight

*Defiler*
-4 Hull Points
-Daemon Forge: Roll a D6, on a 1 you lose a Hull Point. Ability allows for Reroll all To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls from Shooting

Special Characters
Abbadon
-Eternal Warrior

Argel Tal

Korpharon

The Soul Hunter

Doomrider
-Unit upgrade, presumably for a Bike squad

Doombreed

Cypher

Horus Axiamand

Honsou

"Red Angel"

Huron

Unknown Raptor Lord (Night Lords?)

Kharn the Betrayer
-Eternal Warrior
-4+ Inv save
-"His bloodshed knows no bounds"

Ahriman
-Psychic power that can't be stopped with Psychic Hood
-Level 4 Psyker
-Gives D3 units Infiltrate

Typhus
-Eternal Warrior
-Makes Cultists into Zombies
-Unlocks Plague Marines as Troops

Lucius the Eternal
-Gets extra attacks from WS difference when in a Challenge

Slaanesh Dreadnought

Iron Warrior character with servo harness

Model Releases, 4 Waves planned
Daemonancer model

Iron Warriors character with huge servo harness

Plastic Plaguebearers

Plastic Plaguemarines

Plastic Dreadnought

Obliterators remade in finecast or plastic

Plastic Raptors

Plastic Chaos Drop Pod

Plastic Locust
-Chaos Flier

New Plastic Chaos Bike kit (Rumoured Attack Bike?)

Legion specific heads and shoulder sprue
Power Armour and Terminator bits could be separate
Cult terminators have been sighted, but could be conversion or above mentioned kit

New Kharn the Betrayer
"Bulkier and still ferocious in motion"

Special Character box including:
Horus Axiamand
Honsou
Unknown Raptor Lord (Night Lords?)
Kharn the Betrayer
Ahriman
Typhus
Lucius the Eternal


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DD/MM/YYYY
13/09/2012
Some more rumours from Faeit 212
Source


> via the Faeit 212 inbox
> Thousand Sounds full squad is 20 Marines or 10 for half. 150 points gets you 4 sons and a Sorcerer. add more sons for 23 each. Sorcerer can take the boon of mutation ability (the one that gives him an extra roll on the chart at the beginning) for 10 points. he can also have meltabombs for 5 points, and you can buy an icon of flame for 15
> 
> 230 Arhiman
> 240 for squad
> although a level 3 sorcer is only 140, with mark of tzeentch he is 155
> 
> Raptors are 95 for 5, and 17 points for up to 10 more
> same upgrades as before
> 
> WARP TALONS, are the new raptor. They are 160 for 5 and 30 each for up to 5 more. They all have twin lightning claws. and they have an attack on the turn they deep strike.
> its not an assault on arrival. its an attack that makes everyone within 6" of the unit blinded. so if you thread the needle, they won't be shot up
> 
> Defiler is 195 now, with all the normal options.
> demonforge, the ability you're thinking of, is a once per game re-roll to damage
> 
> Forgefiends are 175, they have TWO Hades Autocannons. A Hades Autocannon is 48", Heavy 4, Str 8 AP 4... pinning they are only bs 3, so it's about the same. and once per game it can reroll to-wound and to-pen you can, however, swap those weapons out for Ectoplasm cannons. which are str 8 plasma cannons. and for 200 you get THREE of them. so that's some ap 2 love
> 3 HP, 12/12/10 armor
> 
> Dragon 170, they have 1 hades auto cannon
> 3 HP, 12/12/10
> they can make a melee attack against other fliers


10/09/2012
Big rumours dump from Faeit yet again
Source


> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> 
> Dragon Flyer - 12/12/10
> 
> 2 butcher cannons, bs3, immune to shaken/stunned, can be locked velocity as normal. Flyer only, no hover/skimmer mode. Can vector strike at strength 10. Strafing run.
> Because this might be misinterpreted I'm going to be really clear: It does not have "two firing profiles." It has 2 butcher cannons, and that's it. It does not have blasts of any kind. It is "BS4" against ground targets because of strafing run (go read it, it's a USR for details).
> 
> Terminators can be upgraded to chosen, getting +1 WS (5) and +1 wound (2), and fearless. They can take marks on top of that. It gets expensive.
> - Interestingly enough, when upgraded they are troops if you take Abbadon, yet normal Terminators are Elites.
> There are no "chaos storm shields,"
> The best you can get is Mark of Tzeench to upgrade your 5+ invulnerable from Terminator armour to a 4+.
> 
> There is a piece of chaos wargear that gives a 4+ invulnerable, but it is not a storm shield it can just be added for characters. Yes it upgrades via mark of tzeench to 3+. No it's not available for sorcerers.
> 
> 
> Vindicator is unchanged, but can take daemonic possession (as all chaos vehicles can). No melta of any kind on it except the potential to buy a pintle-mounted combi-melta as an upgrade.
> 
> As for the essentially indirect fire mechanism? That's made up. As for the daemonic possession changing the weapon profile for 1 shot that then expends the daemonic possession? That's made up.
> 
> The new book has a lot to explore, and lots of fiddly options here and there. The post about Abbadon and the previous one have no basis on the actual print what so ever.


09/09/2012
And yet again, Faeit has some rumours
Source


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> Dark Apostles
> It's correct in how they are purchased and that they confer abilities to the unit they're in.
> 
> They universally confer fearless(because they are fearless) and furious charge. Beyond those two, the abilities that they add to the unit are not as good as the ones you have posted, and in some cases not even remotely similar.
> 
> Dark Apostles's are more along the lines of watered down cult troops, but if added to a cult unit they still "bolster" the cult units effects.
> 
> i.e. Dark Apostle in a Plague Marine unit get FnP 4+ instead of 5+, or confers a 5+ to a unit of marines or cultists.
> 
> Let me be frank though and clarify that there is no unit that gets rampage that is not limited to 3 models. It's reserved for independent characters, walkers, monstrous creatures and some multi-wound, small number units.
> 
> Your unit of 8 khorne berserkers doesn't potentially double in effectiveness by taking less of them.
> 
> Daemon Princes
> The daemon prince stuff is accurate
> 
> 
> Daemon Princes are exalted CSM's, not Daemon's (though they have the Daemon rules), so they are not the same as from the Daemon codex. They have clear heritage as space marines.





> via Faeit 212 (anonymous source)
> Lord Abbadon:
> Lord abbadon will become even more of a beast than he is now,
> stats will remain the same and the rules he has at the moment will remain the same but there is also additional rules as well.
> 
> despicable fury: abaddon true hatred for the imperium is so deep that no other chaos space marine can match it. to represent this for each imperium enemy abbadon kills he makes an additional attack & follow all the rules of his daemon weapon (so like the furioso just with abbadon)
> 
> the second gift of tzeench: abaddon has pleased tzeench with his helping in the great game & so has granted his own personal physic aura. to represent this when abaddon suffers an unsaved wound he may re roll it (including invulnerable saves). But if abbadon fails his save again then he suffers the wound & loses an additional wound due to tzeench feeling betrayed for giving him a second gift.
> 
> none can stand the will of the dark gods: when abbadon issues a challenge or accepts a challenge (as described on page X) he ignores his despicable fury rule and instead counts his weapon as being a force weapon (which still requires a point of warp charge)
> 
> Fluff Changes
> When abbadon takes a critical imperium planet he is then spoken to by tzeench personal herald to do a certain task (sorry cannot tell you that part) in the end abbadon completes this task and tzeench shows abbadon his vision of the great transformation and abbadon sitting on the golden throne along side the dead emperor. thus tzeench gives abbadon a second gift, as the planet abbadon has taken has pleased tzeench and angered the other gods without abbadon knowing a thing.
> 
> and apparently the chaos codex is super close, but white dwarf pictures will be hard to get seeing as they have been given only to (suspected workers) and the shops will receive them a day before release.


More from Faeit
Source


> via Faeit 212 (Anonymous)
> the chaos space marine daemon prince being increased by 40pts! & having the lash ability taken away for good (apparently to cheesy)
> the daemon prince will have to pay the same points for wings as a daemons prince from the chaos daemons codex so it is is more balanced.
> 
> dark Apostles will be the same as the blood angels sangunary priest (can have up to 3 & they count as 1 elite)
> the apostle will only give you abilities depending on the mark it has taken.
> 
> the list is as follows :
> Undivided : unit becomes fearless & relentless and gain feel no pain
> khorne : unit gains rage , furious charge & rampage
> nurgle: unit gains feel no pain , it will not die and slow and purposeful (if it joins a unit with feel no pain already then the feel no pain roll is one lower than normal)
> tzeench: units gains a 5+ invulnerable save that can be re rolled if failed (unit and apostle can re roll once per game)
> slannesh: unit gains fleet , + 1 initiative and rending


27/08/2012
Small tidbit about Angron
Source


> Here's the bit on Angron: (via the ever dependable Harry)
> 
> He's advancing, from left to right. Two chainaxes, one in each hand. Right hand going for an overhead chop, the other drawn back against his torso for a sideswipe (because it's Angron, he can't possibly be blocking!). High collar. White shoulder plates. Dreadlock-like neural-implants. Very angry. Link-chain cloak with a few skulls attached...
> 
> He is a good bit bigger than a 'normal' marine.


22/08/2012
Stickmonkey has some release dates for us
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> It's hitting pretty hard that CSM are actually October, the confusion amongst the rumor mongers is that word is WD will hit the 22nd, in time for GD UK the 23rd. With pre-orders for CSM within. And on sale date of Sept. 29th. with a later in the month of Oct 2nd wave.
> 
> So the CSM out Sept is technically correct, but the reality is its the Oct release.


20/08/2012
Starter Set prices and Teaser Trailer
Source


> DARK VENGEANCE PRICES
> 
> Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) - Special Edition 49 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 1-Sep-12 $107.00 USD $128.00 CAD
> 
> Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) 48 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 8-Sep-12 $99.00 USD $119.00 CAD


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DD/MM/YYYY
18/08/2012
CSM release info from Faeit 212


> via Ravengardt on Faeit 212
> Hey Natfka,
> yes sorry I meant 08.09. for CSM. But I still meant release, not
> announcement. I asked him when he told me about the 8th, because I
> thought it's too close the starter box and he replied 8th is release.
> Maybe they're in the White Dwarf anyway or GW starts to announce things
> one week before release. Or he got something wrong.
> 
> Now lets get down to some red meat (sorry vegetarians, I like that phrase and red meat), I did ask one of our more regular sources to see where the codex release still stands. This is mostly because I do not want to bring forth this unbridled excitement and have any let downs. Right now the hype is so high with the starter set, I can feel it from the masses around the world.
> 
> The same source last Sunday declared the following and has said in the past that as it stands CSM and Dark Angels are planned releases before years end.
> 
> The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
> 
> Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
> 
> Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th
> 
> 
> 
> I find this source very credible, here is the response.
> As for chaos not being in September: who told me September is incredibly reliable. Not as a rumor source, but as someone involved in . I can't imagine him being wrong, unless he was intentionally messing with me (but he was right about the starter ... so... Stealth release?)
> 
> Unfortunately, the October white dwarf articles are all about chaos, so it looks like we'll see them next month, unfortunately.
> 
> It wouldn't be uncommon though to release articles about the product after it's released though, we've see a lot of "follow up" stuff happen in the past.
> 
> 
> So does this mean that we are going to see a stealth release? Or is October when its expected? Personally I still think we are looking at September 8th for pre-orders, because I know whats under those blacked out sections and because Ravengardt gives similar dates. However I am not a rumor source, so I can only go on what I am given or find.
> 
> That basically means, I am working with the information that I have, but this one is very tightly under wraps. I think I have the right combination to this safe, but do I have the right safe?
> 
> 
> Sorry for detailing it out the way did, but I felt it important to not just drop the information I have without going into some of these details. If I get more on this.... I will get it out to the readers here.


More fluff regarding the Hellbrute
Source


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> Hellbrute (background/fluff)
> They were mighty and honorable warriors interred in the powerful and venerable dreadnought chasis during their former slavery to the Imperium. A side effect of insanity was a known feature of Dreadnoughts. To counter this, standard operating procedures on Dreadnoughts is to keep them in stasis between service, so that they see life as one constant battle, only awake in times of great need and focus, but Hell brutes get no such reprieve.
> 
> Without the cold embrace of nothingness that makes the years and decades between war pass in the blink of an eye, they are driven mad. The rage of a mind essentially trapped within his walking sarcophagus, simultaneously his freedom and prison tears at the very fabric of his sanity and it is expressed through monstrous transformation and mutation.
> 
> Some believe that when enough service has been rendered and enough blood has been shed and victories won in the name of the Dark Gods, these once mighty warriors will be elevated to Greater Daemons and once again walk the earth of dead worlds with their own two feet.
> 
> 
> Earlier Information
> I just want to clarify that while it is listed as having a Power Fist and not a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, because it is a Walker it does not suffer from the Unwieldy special rule, that's why it's simplified in the codex entry.
> 
> 120 points
> 
> It's 12/12/10
> Str 6, ws 4, bs4, i4
> 
> Multi-Melta / Power Fist (with inbuilt combi-bolter)
> 
> can swap the Multi-Melta for a butcher-cannon, or twin reaper auto cannons (which is pretty cool, since that's an entire riflemen in one arm, but with less range), twin-linked lascannon or a twin-linked heavy flamer.
> can swap combi-bolter for a meltagun or heavy flamer
> 
> Has rampage
> 
> Mark of Khorne: Rage USR
> Mark of Nurgle: 5+ restore a hull point OR repair immobilized / weapon destroyed at the start of a turn. Does not let it get back up after having been killed unlike Unholy Vigor.
> Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic scream, gives it offensive/defensive grenades
> Mark of Tzeench: flame weapons (if it has any) are +1 strength and -1 AP (heavy flamers are AP3... whaaaat)
> 
> 
> New Information
> Some stuff I left out (it was late, I was tired)
> 
> You can change the shooty arm for a Power Fist. The power fist doesn't have an inbuilt weapon though so you can't get another flamer or meltagun on it. This upgrade is free.
> 
> The autocannon is low points cost, the butcher cannon is moderate, the lascannon is expensive and the twin-flamer is free.
> 
> It's also still crazed, but crazed works differently now.
> 
> If you get fire frenzy, you double shot at the closest enemy target, not closest target. Only if there are no enemies in range do you shoot a friendly target (twice). If nothing is STILL in range, you treat it as blood rage instead. (so upgrade your stuff to flamers and give it another power fist if you always want it ANGRY)
> 
> Blood Rage makes the Hellbrute have to move towards the closest target. Rolls 2d6 to run (pick the highest) and can charge, and must charge, the closest target within 12". (rolled as normal). If immobilized, you treat as a Fire Frenzy.
> 
> Dark Apostles make Blood Rage results more likely to happen if they are nearby (but you risk the albeit now unlikely fire frenzy to the face).
> 
> They're not infected with the same virus as Obliterators.
> 
> It's not a daemon, and does not have the daemon USR
> 
> 
> The fluff entry also mentions that some Hell Brutes are not as mutated as others, and more closely resemble their dreadnought kin, but to make no mistake they are just as insane.
> 
> (So you can still use your old models if you have them. The hellbrute is just the evolution of the whole "style" for the new CSM, which is a lot less "space marine with spikes" and a lot more something unique).


Hellbrute info
Source


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> There's a rumor floating around that the hellbrute strikes at initiative 1.
> 
> I just want to clarify that while it is listed as having a Power Fist and not a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, because it is a Walker it does not suffer from the Unwieldy special rule, that's why it's simplified in the codex entry.
> 
> 120 points
> 
> It's 12/12/10
> Str 6, ws 4, bs4, i4
> 
> Multi-Melta / Power Fist (with inbuilt combi-bolter)
> 
> can swap the Multi-Melta for a butcher-cannon, or twin reaper auto cannons (which is pretty cool, since that's an entire riflemen in one arm, but with less range), twin-linked lascannon or a twin-linked heavy flamer.
> can swap combi-bolter for a meltagun or heavy flamer
> 
> Has rampage
> 
> Mark of Khorne: Rage USR
> Mark of Nurgle: 5+ restore a hull point OR repair immobilized / weapon destroyed at the start of a turn. Does not let it get back up after having been killed unlike Unholy Vigor.
> Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic scream, gives it offensive/defensive grenades
> Mark of Tzeench: flame weapons (if it has any) are +1 strength and -1 AP (heavy flamers are AP3... whaaaat)


17/08/2012
Starter set WD pictures

























More info on the models in the starter
Source


> via (A Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> The hell brute is amazing and not in fact a dreadnought! It looks like a bloated dread from the front with a nasty mini defiler gauntlet ending in a wicked hand / claw. It appears to have some kind of cannon for the right hand. Not actually sure if it's a multi melta yet. Any rumors the hell brute is a dreadnought are immediately put to bed by looking at its back. The back is all daemon flesh. the face of the brute is a giant cluster of horns with a gaping toothy maw in the middle opening to reveal a screaming skull warped in agony.
> 
> The chaos lord/ sorcerer in power armor has a wicked set of horns and a plasma pistol and daemon sword as big as he is. It's seriously nemesis force sword big.
> 
> The 6 chosen have bolters and lightning claw dude and power weapon guy as previously mentioned by other sources. They look right out of the designs for the space marine video game. Not a lot of spikes but a ton of detail on the armor.
> 
> The set comprises of:
> Chaos (no god specific iconography thus far on models but it does reek of khorne)
> -chaos lord
> -6 chosen
> -18 cultists
> - hell brute
> 
> Dark angels
> -company master
> -chaplain
> -librarian
> -10 man full plasma option tac squad
> -5 man terminator squad
> -3 bikers
> 
> I also got to see the terminators. The captain has wings coming out of the top of his armor.
> 
> The assault cannon guy is a character. He looks cool with his assault cannon raised.


Small pictures of the Chaos models in the starter set that are showcased in the upcoming WD

PA Chaos Lord









Chosen with Power Maul









Chosen with Lightning Claws









Chaos Cultist









16/08/2012
Some small tidbits today (the hell is a "tidbit" anyway? :crazy
Source


Ravengardt on Faeit 212 said:


> this time I got something for you.
> ----- and the ---- where briefed. On two things. Yeah you guessed. 25.08. will be preorder date for the starter box. There will be a limited version with an Interrogator Chaplain. 08.09. will be the release date of CSM Codex.


13/08/2012
Will CSM be the first codex to have every single new model released within a month? This rumour claims so 
Source


Faeit 212 (A Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> By the end of September the entire range will be available.
> 
> That doesn't include resculpts of old models, but essentially there will be no unit entry without a model on the shelf, even if some (read: Khorne Berserkers) are old kits.


12/08/2012
Lots of interesting rumours popped up today, seems we will be seeing some Chaos really soon, 2 more weeks to be exact.



> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> 
> Chaos Space Marines is on the 8th of September
> 
> That said, the starter box will not be being released in September at all.
> 
> 
> Big Pause..............
> 
> It's the last Saturday of August along with the White Dwarf previewing CSM. (the 25th).





> Updated with More Information to clarify pre-orders and release dates.
> The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
> 
> Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
> 
> Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th.





> –Special Characters–
> 
> Ahriman: Mastery Level 4, Same Stats as before, Access to Biomancy, Pryomancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch. He is the master of witch ire spells, he can cast three spells that are witchfire in the same phase. He can also give up to three units infiltrate ability.
> 
> Huron: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 1, Spells are randomly determined at the start of each turn.
> 
> Typhus: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 2 can only take Nurgle powers, Destroyer Hive has been changed to be a Nurgle Holocaust Str4 AP2 ignores cover. Has Fear
> 
> Kharn: Same Stats as before, Him and his Unit get 2+ to deny witch and is completely immune to force weapons. Still attacks random people, but now a sneaky way around it. Always hits on 2+ in Assualt. Best part is he has Hatred that he can give to the rest of his unit.
> 
> Fabius Bile: Same Stats as before. Enhanced Warriors can only ever kill one model gives them Str and Fearless.
> 
> Lucius: Same Stats as before. His attacks are the same number as your opponent WS (Avatar vs Lucius fun times). Re-rolls all Wounds, Armor saves made by Lucius inflict str 4 ap2 hits back.
> 
> –Vehicles–
> 
> Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
> 
> Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
> 
> Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
> 
> Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
> 
> Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
> 
> Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
> 
> –Unique Items–
> 
> Demon Weapons: All Demon Weapons on a roll of 1 will attack user, but no longer will you lose the rest of your attacks.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Axe: +2 str Ap2, Blinds Opponents, Gives Rage, Demon Weapon.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Maul: AP4, Fleshbane, Demon Weapon, Any unsaved wounds causes instant death after toughness test is failed, in addition at the end of the assault phase any model with in 3″ must make another toughness test or take an AP1 wound.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Sword: Ap3 Marked for Death, select any character get str x2 AP1 instant death when engaged with that character
> 
> Unique Chaos Flamer: Str 5 Ap3 Torrent, Soulblaze
> 
> Unique Icon: Once you kill a model the Icon unlocks and any model enemy model within 12″ must take Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests and all friendly deep strikers don’t scatter.
> 
> Unique Spell Book: Gain Random powers every turn can possible hurt you as well
> 
> –Wargear–
> 
> Attack Familiar: Two additional familiar attacks
> 
> Magic Familiar: Grants Random Spells
> 
> Chaos Iron Halo: 4+ invul can stack with MoT so that means 3+ invul
> 
> Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets
> 
> –Units–
> 
> Chosen: 19pts each, Infiltrate gone
> 
> Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
> 
> Zerkers: 19pts each, Chainaxe Str 4 Ap 4
> 
> 1k Sons: 23pts each, Champion Mastery Level 1
> 
> Plague Marines: 24pts each, Same as before now have Poison Assault Weapon
> 
> Noise Marines: 16pts each, Must still buy Sonic Weapons. Sonic Blaster 24″ inch Str 4 Ap5 Salvo, Ignores Cover, Blastmaster 25 pts assault 2 or heavy 1 blast same as before now with ignores cover, Doom Siren Same as before.
> 
> Assault Oblits: Elite Slot Weapons act like Ymgarl Genestealers powers
> 
> Possessed: Random Chart is now D3 acts like Ymgarl Genestealers powers, but determine at the beginning of the turn.
> 
> Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
> 
> –Psychic Powers–
> 
> Tzeentch: 4 powers only. Prime Power Random Str blast that keeps on exploding random hits for every dead model, 1-2 Roll on Big Chart re-roll spawn result, 3-4 Bolt of Tzeentch but how is a Beam, 5-6 Breath of Chaos
> 
> Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!


01/08/2012
Legion sprues might be headed our way, sounds similar to the upgrade sprues currently available for BT, DA and SW
Source


Faeit 212 from "A must remain anonymous source" said:


> Two types of conversion kits. Unit and Character. Each legion is getting one.
> 
> 
> Character conversion kits come with a Legion specific Torso and Head with a sprue of weapons shared between all of them.
> 
> 
> Conversion kits consist of 10 shoulder pads, sergeant head, sergeant weapon, and a banner.
> 
> 
> All 10 shoulder pads are unique with bits on them, not generic and match various armour pattern mks.
> 
> 
> Potentially certain legions will come with a new / unique helmet variant (friend said Ultramarines specifically, as an example).
> 
> 
> Cataphract terminator armour is in, and comes with combi-bolter and not a power fist, but an arm ending in a stump, and a weapon sprue with several different power weapon options.
> 
> 
> Additional weapon sprues will be purchasable separately, in case you want all swords, all mauls, etc.
> 
> 
> No pre-heresy drop pod variant.
> 
> 
> couldn't confirm jetbikes or landspeeders, just the infantry upgrades.
> 
> 
> Several of the special characters for less notable Legions will not be getting unique models, but the "legion character upgrade" will be based on the named character if you want to create it using those bits.


29/07/2012
Some more rumours regarding the new dragon flier
Source


> via Grant
> Imagine a dragon made of "fire" and coverd in a platemale armor and you won't be too far off. That is the best discription I can give.
> Some of the concept art shows it mauling a valkyrie mid flight. It is pretty cool.
> 
> 
> via TastyTaste
> Has the Daemon USR
> Has It will Not Die USR
> –Demon Possessed–
> Demon possessed just got a whole bunch cuter really. Instead of not being able to embark in demon possessed vehicles they now will only eat one of your guys and repair itself. Otherwise works the same way as before lose BS and ignore shaken and stunned, In addition some things get wargear automatically.
> –Dragon–
> Oh the Dragon yeah the model on everyone mind. This is a CSM answer to other flyers it is designed almost exclusively to hunt and destroy other flyers. Clocking in about the same points cost of Carnifex these little hell on wings Vector Strike and bring pain to a lot of things. Did I mention it gets to re-roll wounds and armor pens.
> –Dragons, Demon Engines, Defilers oh my-
> So let me put this in perspective. All these models ignore shaken and stunned, have 5+ invul saves, re-roll wounds and armor pens, and can recover wounds and hull points lost.
> -The Dragon flyer is in – think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it.
> (True – The thing looks like a dragon head attached to the Owl from Clash of the Titans)
> 
> 
> 
> via Mysterious Guest from QnA
> Chaos Dragon (Fast Attack)
> The only flyer in the codex
> Dragon Takes out other flyers with a ranged attack
> its 12/11/10 170pts
> Fast Attack
> 
> 
> the flyer you get is retardedly good at blowing up things that are zooming.
> 
> 
> via Bigred
> I have been told the following from folks who have seen the kit:
> 
> 
> Imagine an oversized Forgeworld Hellblade fighter with a larger rear-central "body" that rotates downward for the Dragon's main hull. It is composes of Hellblade style straight edged overlapping panels similar to the Greater Brass Scorpion, and is has plastic elements representing being wreathed in fire. It has a "dragonish" mechanical head and claws of some type on the lower body, and is on the large oval flying stand.
> 
> 
> So yes in fact it does sound an awful lot like a modernization of the old Epic Tzeentch Doomwing. Basically not an organic thing at all, but a "dragon" in the same sense that the Greater Brass Scorpion is a "scorpion". It's a daemon engine designed for flight that is modeled after a dragon.
> 
> via Stickmonkey
> Furies and Greater Deamons are still coming, unfortunately, not likely until next year.


25/07/2012
Some info regarding the Daemon changes and units in the WD
Source


Loken said:


> Screamers
> 
> Screamers now cost 9 more points per model and have two wounds, 3 attacks at S5 AP2 with armourbane. Better against most vehicles. Probably a bit worse against Land Raiders, but I haven't done the math yet.
> 
> Update: A single screamer has a 21% chance to blow up a Land Raider under the new rules and a 19% chance to do it under the current rules. Pretty much unchanged.
> 
> They also get a slashing attack that works like a vector strike if they turboboost. It's d3 S4 AP- hits which stinks, but it does say that hits are resolved from where they end their move, which kind of gives you a clue about how you should resolve vector strikes.
> 
> Screamers are now terminator killers in addition to anti-armor thanks to 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge at I4. They lost their 4+ save, which is now 5+.
> 
> Hellflayer
> 
> The new fast attack choice. You can only have a squad of one (LOLwhut?!). It costs 10 points more than a naked Herald. It's a non-skimmer chariot that is fast and open-topped with AV 11 (Immune to bolters) and two hull points. Its Hammer of Wrath attacks are S4 AP- rending and it deals an extra D6 HOW attacks for each hull point it has left, (so 2D6 HOW attacks at full HP.). Terrible!
> 
> Soulscent allows the Alluress to take a few more swings for each unsaved wound caused by the HOW attacks before she almost certainly dies. This makes it worth 20 points more than aSeeker Chariot.
> 
> It is Fast and Fleet so it can move 12" after deep striking and reroll the charge move.
> 
> This is a disappointing unit. Why only one per squad? If you have a few points left over for a bugsmasher I guess you could field this.
> 
> Seeker Chariots and Exalted Seeker Chariots
> 
> Ok so these come in a squadron of 1-3 and have Fleshshredder but not Soulscent. They are on friggin huge bases so you'd better have a lot of space to deep strike them.
> 
> The exalted chariot has 4 HP so can do 4D6 HOW hits. A squadron could do up to 12D6 HOW hits for 270 points. Which gets you about 7 rending hits plus 36 S4 hits on average. This will kill most anything that is not flying or a Land Raider or Draigowing. It had better, too because those Alluresses will not survive combat.
> 
> So here's the question. A Herald of Slaanesh can take a Seeker Chariot. Can it join a squadron of Seeker Chariots? It seems like they should be able to, but I can't find a clear answer in the rulebook.
> 
> Here's the next question. The Alluress dies if the Chariot is blowed up, but does the Herald? I'm inclined to say no because it's an IC and would probably be allowed to get off just like the Necron barge Lord.
> 
> I have been looking for an HQ choice to bridge the gap between 2k point games and 1500 and below since Heralds are all flawed and GDs are too expensive. A Herald on a Seeker Chariot may be the answer.
> 
> Flamers
> 
> HEY! GW realized these guys were horrible so they made them somewhat better. The cost is dropped 12 points (I think that's a 3, not a 5), they have 2 wounds and I4. You can now take a 5 point upgrade character who is there for Look Out Sir! and not for the extra attack on his profile.
> 
> Oh and you can't take Bolt of Tzeentch anymore (Sob!)
> 
> It is now a viable strategy to run a Herald on a disk with this unit for LoS wound allocation. In fact, it's a better idea than a Tzerald on a chariot. They may just survive long enough to reach spitting distance.
> 
> Oh, by the way, the save is 5+ now.
> 
> I think they're still not as good as Fiends, but definitely much improved.
> 
> 
> We are pretty close to the release date, so I am guessing the above is right on!


23/07/2012
Video of the new WD is up, it contains a rules update for the new Daemon models





You can find pictures from the WD here

BoKs first big rumours dumb is here
Source


> *–Important Designer Note–
> *
> The new CSM codex is not a return to the 3rd edition codex, this is the successor to Gav Thorpe’s creation– the current CSM codex. Unlike before Phil Kelly was put in charge of building from the ground up; Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, and Orks codexes he instead has taken a much more subtle approach with the CSM Codex. This is not the reinvention of the wheel at its core this is a validation for Gav Thorpe and perhaps if you could ask Gav, Phil Kelly’s CSM codex would have been the codex he wished he could have written, but wasn’t allowed to.
> 
> *–What will be Released–*
> 
> We will know if GW has changed policy. This codex will reveal if GW has abandoned the wave method to model release with a new codex or if they have stopped caring and show you all the new models even if they don’t come out right away.
> 
> Finecast: Dark Apostle, Warsmith, New Lord, Oblits, All Old Special Characters not updated already
> 
> New Plastic: Dragon, Raptors, Dreadnaught, Demon Engine, Assault Oblits, Chosen
> 
> Upgrade Packs: Plague Marines, 1k Sons, Emperor’s Children
> 
> *–General Changes–*
> 
> Almost all of the old units are either the same point cost or have gotten cheaper. With the notable exceptions of Chosen, Terminators, Defilers getting more expensive. The notable cheaper ones being basic CSM, Oblits, Zerkers, The CSM is really an upgrade codex, while things have gotten cheaper you will be hard pressed to keep your units inexpensive with all the wargear you can add. The cheaper units doesn’t come without a cost as well, almost all units saw a LD drop. Also you will start to see a lot of the new USRs in the CSM book.
> 
> * –What has stayed the Same–*
> 
> The Cult units are the same in stats and basic wargear. No new Spacial Characters. Abbadon is still the only one with Eternal Warrior. Demon Weapons still can kill you. The Dreadnaught is still Crazy. The unit sizes have stayed the same as well as the wargear options found in the old codex; e.g. Chosen can still get a butt load special weapons.
> 
> *–Psychic Powers–*
> 
> As can you expect each Chaos God gives their chosen Sorcerer access to their own set of spells. That allows you to pick from Basic Spells and the new ones for each God. If anyone was wondering Lash of Submission is gone.
> 
> Ok now that we got the basics out-of-the-way let us get to the good stuff
> 
> *–Daemons–*
> 
> A good number of units in the CSM codex have this USR.
> 
> Raptors
> Oblits
> CC Oblit
> Defilers
> Demon Engines
> Dragons
> Possessed
> Demon Prince
> 
> *–It Will Not Die–*
> 
> Wonder who was getting this new USR well you guessed it CSM is.
> 
> Dragons
> Defilers
> Demon Engines
> 
> *–Demon Possessed–*
> 
> Demon possessed just got a whole bunch cuter really. Instead of not being able to embark in demon possessed vehicles they now will only eat one of your guys and repair itself. Otherwise works the same way as before lose BS and ignore shaken and stunned, In addition some things get wargear automatically.
> 
> Dragons
> Defliers
> Demon Engines
> 
> *–Challenges–*
> 
> All CSM characters must always accept challenges
> 
> *–Icons and Marks–*
> 
> Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.
> 
> Fearless
> FnP
> +1 T
> +1 Invul Save
> Rage
> Soul Blaze
> Furious Charge
> Fear
> +1 I
> 
> *–Space Marines Better Hide–*
> 
> Almost all CSM units get Hatred Space Marines. Now I am not sure if this includes all Space Marine variants or just Smurfs and friends.
> 
> *–?Eye of the Gods Table?–*
> 
> Yeah this will be the chart to end all charts and competitive players will cry everywhere because it is random. All 60+random abilities! Yes you heard it right over 60! How it works I don’t know, but characters can get multiple rolls on the chart through various methods.
> 
> Time for some specific models right? Sure why not!
> 
> *–Dragon–*
> 
> Oh the Dragon yeah the model on everyone mind. This is a CSM answer to other flyers it is designed almost exclusively to hunt and destroy other flyers. Clocking in about the same points cost of Carnifex these little hell on wings Vector Strike and bring pain to a lot of things. Did I mention it gets to re-roll wounds and armor pens.
> 
> *–Demon Engines–*
> 
> The other mystery model that has been leaked. These guys sit on the large bases like Trygons. They have an assortment of special weapons that have never been seen before. They are designed for Building and Heavy armor destruction with Melta CC weapons and bonuses against buildings. They as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pens. Side note: Defilers as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pen.
> 
> *–Dragons, Demon Engines, Defilers oh my-*
> 
> So let me put this in perspective. All these models ignore shaken and stunned, have 5+ invul saves, re-roll wounds and armor pens, and can recover wounds and hull points lost.
> 
> *–Cult Units–*
> 
> I know much of the Internet was crying about them only being in the Elite slot when I first mentioned it. How dare they force me to take Kharn to spam Berserkers! Well don’t worry is not as bad as you think. You can also get a generic Lord and buy the correct mark and unlock them as troops as well. As for the rules themselves just minor changes.
> 
> Zerkers: Rage, Cheaper
> 1k Sons: Soul Fire, Same cost
> Emperor Children: Weapons Ignore cover and now have Salvo USR, Cheaper
> Plague Marines: Poison Weapons, More Expensive
> 
> *–Typhus and Cultists–*
> 
> Typhus is now a mastery level 2 sorcerer of Nurgle. In addition as reported earlier he can make any cultist a zombie. Zombies are going to be disgusting in 6th edition. FnP, Fearless, Fear, and all for no additional cost. As for Cultists they are cheap not conscript cheap, but close. You can get over 30 of them in a squad.
> 
> *–Daemon Princes, Sorcerers , Chaos Lords–*
> 
> Princes got more expensive wargear bringing them in line with the Demon Codex. Sorcerers are pretty much the same with the ability to buy up to Master level 3, but they only ever have 2 wounds. Chaos Lords are where it seems to be at, Phil Kelly wants you to design a Lord tailored to your army, their list of wargear options is easily the largest of any model in the book. Also remember they allow you to make Cult Units troops.
> 
> Ok that is all I got for now, depending on how the week goes and what GW does I might get more rumors for you, but until now that is all I got. Wait, no I just remembered something…
> 
> If you are currently complaining about Warlord traits being too random well play that violin some more. GW really wants you to use them! The CSM codex has it’s own Warlord chart, but the big announcement is some characters have specific Warlord Traits! These are built into the cost of the model, so no taking them out!


List of Aug releases, no CSM in there so I guess we gotta wait for September or October for the new codex. Some new Daemons though, so get some and paint those allies :crazy:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DD/MM/YYYY
23/07/2012
BoK has slowly started on their rumours dump. Seems CSM will have Hatred Adeptus Astartes which does make sense. Hmm, come to think of it Sisters of Battle would have Hatred Everyone since they fight Witchcraft, Heresy and Mutation and everyone falls into either :crazy:



> Working on the CSM rumor dump right now guys! Here is a tease for you though the CSM will strike with a ”hatred” at the Adeptus Astartes


hastings says the codex will come in October, other say August or September. We should know by the end of the week.


75hastings69 said:


> I was going to post this on the other thread but it got closed, so ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.
> 
> Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.
> 
> I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)
> 
> Upcoming models:-
> 
> Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids!
> Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version
> Dragon flyer is ok
> Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy
> Warp smith
> Apostles
> Cultists
> Some odd walker thing
> New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!)
> Chosen very nice too


GW has released a new trailer, it's clearly Daemons. The pictures you see flashing are from the current Daemon codex cover





Some info on Daemons
Source


> Release Date: Unknown.
> However there are rumours that a release of models is coming very soon. (Harry)Next month ... in next months white Dwarf (Kijamon)
> 
> Author:
> There are no rumours of a book at all. Just a wave of models. ( Harry)
> 
> Rules:
> Army book update sheet/leaflet in next months White Dwarf with new rules and updates.
> 
> Models:
> Plastic Plague Bearers. (Erazmus_M_Wattle, manickZe, Harry)
> Finecast screamers ... not the old models. New sculpts. (Erazmus_M_Wattle)
> Some BIG , gribbly monster type thing. (Not a mammoth. Not a Greater Daemon).(Harry) Nurgle specific? (Harry)
> Flying? chariot. (Harry, Erazmus_M_Wattle)
> Herald of Slaanesh on chariot been spotted in warehouses.(Silvertounge)
> Soulgrinders in fantasy. Massive rectangle base. (Erazmuz_M_Wattle) This must be the big thing on a monster base I heard about. I wasn't expecting a soul grinder ... Nurgle speciific thing was (clearly)my incorrect assumption. (Harry)
> 
> This just in from Rixitotal who has read next months White Dwarf:
> 
> "So in next months white dwarf there is going to be a leaflet with updates for Codex daemons and daemons in fantasy.
> Some changes to old units, flamers are now only S4 in fantasy and some units have had point changes. ect.
> Also new units slannesh massive chariot (2D6 +1 impact hits) and other weird chariot thing in 1 kit. the other thing looks and acts kind of like a mobile meat lawnmower. This is in both games and acts like a chariot in 40K.
> Soul grinders are coming to fantasy! has T7 6 wounds and a load of upgrades for its shooting. looks pretty mental.
> The model (40K kit) in the white dwarf and leaflet was on the same base as the giant goblin spider.
> New models for plague bearers (really really nice, some have fly heads)
> Screamers (look similar but with lots of eyes),
> Flamers (similar)
> Nurgalings (looks like a pile of funny little germ monsters you might get in a dish washer advert).
> 
> More confirmation of this and some more details from my inbox:
> 
> Chariot kit has two builds. One has four daemonettes and a herald called an exalted with a big whip. The other build has the exalted on her own but the chariot is dragging spiked / bladed rollers behind it.
> 
> Soul grinders comes on the same base as the Arachnarok spider. Shooting attacks. One attack works like grape shot but can be upgraded. Another works like a stone thrower.
> 
> Blue Scribes gets a mini. More Dais than disc.
> 
> Further Down The road:
> 
> All 4 greater Deamons will get plastic kits (with head/weapon options plus wfb/40k specific bits on sprues) and that there will be "resin conversion packs" to make "named greater Deamons". (Hastings) No idea of timescales on this. I am not expecting them to arrive together Or with this wave. (Harry)
> Jes Goodwin is rumoured to be doing the Bloodthirster. No timescale for this. (NatTreehouse)
> 
> BRING IT ON!


22/07/2012
We are getting close to the launch of something, if it's CSM or something else...


> Cool tidbits from Hastings, and we can start looking forward to lots of information soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 75hastings69 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The csm dread looks like a very angry roided up oblit, the new "mauler" cc oblits are good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Faeit 212 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I am expecting over the next few days.
> 
> First off Tastytaste is promising his readers something within 48 hours. Not only that over at Blood of Kittens he as declared Phil Kelly is the author. I thought we knew that, but apparently looking back over what I have posted, it was still up for grabs a little.
> 
> I expect pictures from the White Dwarf within the same 48 hour time frame. I even expect the information early tomorrow, but its hard to say for sure when things arrive. I am at the mercy of sources and when they get the information and are able to get the information to us here on Faeit 212 we will have it posted up.
> 
> Information from White Dwarf and from the codex is what I would expect to see over the next week. As things get clearer towards the end of the week, the information should start to get better, and I am hoping that there is a few bombshells to drop, as we get information on things like flyers, Daemon Princes, the new Chaos Dreadnought type (hellbeast), and more.
> 
> This next week is going to be full of rumors, pictures and other other information, so stay tuned and if your not excited about Chaos Space Marines, then at least get pumped up to see the first codex release of 6th edition.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On the other hand, there's some contradictory information about the White Dwarf.
> 
> 
> 
> Random poster said:
> 
> 
> 
> can confirm for you all that codex Chaos Space Marines will be released in October at the earliest.
> 
> The White Dwarf features Daemons. Lots of them but no Chaos Marines. The month after is the 40k starter box so that means no codex until October. I'm a bit bummed out by this but I suppose it gives me longer to save up.
> 
> However the boxed game sounds like it's going to be pretty sweet so perhaps I won't actually have any money left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reddit poster said:
> 
> 
> 
> So in next months white dwarf there is going to be a leaflet with updates for Codex daemons and daemons in fantasy.
> 
> Some changes to old units, flamers are now only S4 in fantasy and some units have had point changes. ect.
> 
> Also new units slannesh massive chariot (2D6 +1 impact hits) and other weird chariot thing in 1 kit. the other thing looks and acts kind of like a mobile meat lawnmower. this is in both games and acts like a chariot in 40K.
> 
> also soul grinders are coming to fantasy! has T7 6 wounds and a load of upgrades for its shooting. looks pretty mental. the model (40K kit) in the white dwarf and leaflet was on the same base as the giant goblin spider.
> 
> also new models for plague bearers (really really nice, some have fly heads) screamers (look similar but with lots of eyes), flamers (similar) and nurgalings (looks like a pile of funny little germ monsters you might get in a dish washer advert).
> 
> Also new beastman shaman.
> 
> should be out next week .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Third edit: The Reddit person posting about the WD is the same one who posted about the 6th ed BRB, so it's safe to assume it's true. This means that all the CSM stuff has been removed and replaced with a leaflet with Daemon changes and the new unit. So it does look like October is C:CSM, not August or September
Click to expand...

20/07/2012
Faeit 212 is one of the best places for rumours these days, here is another bit
Source


Faeit 212 said:


> a local gw store had put a event calendar online and removed it some hours later. It might be, because for August 4th it stated "Codex release party", which would concur with the newest rumors. Maybe this helps.


19/07/2012
Faeit 212 has received some interesting information. If the WD has been pushed back there might not be any leaks next week. Seems there will be LOADS of 40K coming out in the next 3 months, does that mean there will be another 6month dryspell where nothing is released due to The Hobbit?
Source


Exclusive for Faeit 212 said:


> A lot of stuff has been circulating recently and I really don't know where they're getting it from. I just wanted to sort of set some of it straight.
> 
> The next 4 major launches are 3 new flyers, Chaos Space Marines, the 6th edition starter set and Dark Angels.
> 
> The new flyers (1 of which being chaos) and the Chaos Space Marine book and initial waves are both done and in some cases even distributed to warehouses.
> 
> The current itinerary for release is New Flyers plus the Chaos book and half the models for August.
> 
> Then it's the other half of chaos plus the starter for September
> 
> Then it's Dark Angels and their ENTIRE new range in October.
> 
> It's a whole lot coming really fast and there's a little bit of resistance (from certain people) on the release of the flyers and chaos all at once.
> 
> That said, August's white dwarf has been pushed back for reasons I do not know. In the past, however, the only reason for White Dwarfs to be pushed back, however, have been last minute removal of content and articles, never additions.
> 
> This month had so much content potential that about 80% of it ended up on the editing room floor, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to fill a magazine back up if they were cutting chunks out of it.
> 
> As of Thursday morning though, August white dwarf hasn't been sent to the printers. The drop date on that is Friday.


18/07/2012
If CSM is really to be released in Sep what can we expect for August? Seems we might be getting some fliers, we should know for sure next week when the leaks starts popping up.


theDarkGeneral said:


> I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!


Aug or Sep release, we should know next week
Source


Logan said:


> regading yesterdays september release rumor
> I dont have the codex but what I know is that the release date is pretty certain its wrong. Defilers being Daemons is wrong. But that doesnt mean they wont get some special save. And I dont recall Eye of the Gods but it seems like something Phill would put





Bramgaunt said:


> I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.





Lirith'uan said:


> My sources have also confirmed that a printed version of the Chaos Codex made the rounds at Head Office last week and that they were indeed going to be shipped worlwide this week .
> 
> My source indicates August release - GW does not traditionally send books 5 weeks in advance, so as to prevent us getting the info to early


16/07/2012
CSM codex is now being sent to warehouses around the world, a release of September 1st and the Chaos Dragon thing is in (then again these are still rumours)
Source


Logan said:


> Hey Natfka, great job. Also CSM codexes is just being distributed to warehouses worldwide now. I saw a new sculpt for Kharn. Or im pretty certain its him. Looks very cool. Also the Chaos Dragon thing is pretty nasty at other flyers. But im sure you'll see soon enough.





Anonymous said:



> Release date – 1st September (7 weeks he said) and it is a hard back like the 8e WFB Army Books.
> There is an Eye of the Gods esque table (Warriors of Chaos players will know what I am talking about) that you get to roll on whenever a character kills another character in a challenge, or a Walker or Monstrous Creature. There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!!!
> Chaos Cultists are definetely in (but we all kinda know that already), as is the ‘Dragon’ – think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis been replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it. On top of those there are also:
> 
> Dark Apostles – evil Chaplains basically
> Warp Smiths – evil Techmarine that can curse vehicles and degrade terrain.
> A new Daemon Engine – half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler.
> Speaking of Defilers as they are Daemons they have a 5+ Inv save.
> ‘Cult’ units are all Elites and are unlocked to Troops by appropriate HQ choices, but there are no Cult Terminators which makes me sad.
> Obliterators are exclusively for shooting – so no powerfists. BUT there is a new unit which is basically a close combat Obliterator.
> There are 2 types of Raptors now; regular CSM with Jump Packs, and then some kind of Possessed Daemonic Raptors that all come with Lightning Claws!
> Possessed are meant to be amazing, and take a lot of benefits from the Eye of the Gods esque table.
> There are NO Daemons in the Codex because that is what Allies are for.
> 
> That is all I can remember for now. Sorry I am VERY tired. But regardless I have to say I am excited to see the Codex in the flesh and get cracking on some themed lists with Allied Daemons or Guard (for a proper Lost and the Damned army).


03/07/2012
6E Starter Set contents have been leaked, the chaos part of it is exactly as has been rumoured for months. Dreadnought name seems to be Hellbeast, the picture from the rulebook I posted had the name The Hell Feaster. So perhaps different region name as the leak is from China?
Source
Picture 1
Picture 2


> via tokugawa
> DA has :
> Captain Balthasar(with power armor, not in TDA)
> Librarian(with power armor)
> Tactical Sqaud(10 men, with 1 plasma cannon)
> Deathwing Squad(5 men, with storm bolters, no Stormshield)
> Ravenwing Squad(3 bikes)
> 
> Chaos part:
> Lord(in power armor)
> Chaos Dread(with tl-melta and DCCW)
> Chosen(6 men, with power maul, power fist and lightning claw)
> Cultists(20 men, half with ccw and pistol, the other half have assault rifle)
> 
> 
> Via TheDude and translated spaint2k
> Dark Angels
> Captain Balthasar: w/ Power Armour, Power Sword, Combi-Plasma, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Librarian Termiel (SP?): w/ Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Deathwing Squad Balachar (SP?): Sergeant w/ Storm Bolter & Power Sword, 1 w/ Assault Cannon & Power Fist, 1 w/ Storm Bolter & Chainfist and 2 w/ Storm Bolter & Power Fist
> 
> Tactical Squad Raphael: Sergeant w/ Plasma Pistol & Chainsword and 9 Marines, 1 w/ Plasma Cannon, 1 w/ Plasma Gun, 7 w/ Bolters. All with Bolt Pistol and Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Ravenwing Squad Allian (SP?): Sergeant w/ Chainsword, 1 w/ Plasma Gun and 1 w/ Bolt Pistol. All with twin-linked bolters and Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Chaos Space Marines
> Chaos Lord: Power Armour, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Dreadnought (Seems to be named as "Hellbeast"): Multi Melta and Power Fist
> 
> Chosen: Sergeant w/ Power Maul, Bolt Pistol & Bolter. One with a lightning claw, one with Power Axe, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, one with Power Fist, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, two with Close Combat Weapons, Bolters & Bolt Pistols. All have Power Armour, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Cultist squad 1: Cultist leader w/ two Close Combat Weapons and 9 Cultists, one w/ Flamer, 8 w/ Close Combat Weapons & Autopistols
> 
> Cultist squad 2: Cultist leader w/ Close Combat Weapon & (possibly) Shotgun and 9 Cultist, 1 w/ (possibly) Heavy Stubber and 8 w/ Autoguns
> 
> 
> The leaked Chinese summary sheets from the starter set show Cultists as having Guard stats, but with a 6+Sv
> It also shows them with access to Autoguns or Autopistol and CCW as well as options for Flamers and Heavy Stubbers.
> Their Squad leaders can also take Shotguns or two CCW for some reason.


More Chaos Daemons seems to be on the way, Allies for CSM are finally getting some plastic love
Source


Erazmus_M_Wattle said:


> I've heard a whisper that more Daemons are on the way. We've all heard about new Plague Bearers in plastic. Plastic nurglings have been sighted. Apparently they looke like they're swarming over one another in a sort of wave. Sounds cool.
> 
> Not only that. There's more. Finecast screamers. Like the old ones but less manta ray with more tusks. Possibly some more heralds. Not sure if they are plastic or finecast.
> 
> Heralds on chariots. The Slaanesh chariot is in the warehouse and it comes with a chariot base as expected for the square basers but may also have the oval for 40k players.
> 
> The Scribes have been seen as well. The disc looks like a flying alter and the blue scribes look manic.
> 
> The plague bearers have a new look which as you'd expect harks back to the old days.


30/06/2012
Because the rumour mill is pretty dried up I figured I'd add this. The new FAQs are out and all of them have been named Codex Name 6th Ed V1, all except CSM which is just Chaos Space Marine 6th.
I guess this is because it's the next codex and there would be no need for a CSM V1. I'm 100% sure it will require some FAQs to fix it's problems when it comes out but that might get named differently or they didn't name this one V1 so they could use that name for when the new CSM FAQ does come out.
Yeah, nothing interesting going around atm....

29/06/2012
So I got my hands on the new 6E BRB today, when flipping trough it I came across this on page 397. There is a lineup of illustrated models, all of which look pretty much exactly like the plastic miniature in question... all except one...
So is this what the new Chaos Dreadnought will look like? I'd like to think so, as why else would the have a line up of model illustrations and add something new they wont use at the end?









28/06/2012
Darnok has some rumours regarding the release of CSM, it does fit in with the late July rumour we have now. Perhaps pre-orders in late July and August 4th release?


Darnok said:


> August will see CSM and Daemons.





Darnok said:


> I'd would bet money on Codex: CSM in August. Daemons are heavily rumoured to get models as well, even though I'm not 100% sure about it.


20/06/2012
A scan of the Generic Psyhic Powers was posted by Wez today in the 6E Rumours thread. Interesting list indeed though odd that Chaos Daemons can't use any of the generic psyhic powers. CSM have access to Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy. I find it really odd they dont have Biomancy as some of the Thousand Sons were Biomancers and healers. Heck even Divination was something they could do, predicting the future to dodge attacks or warn allies of ambushes.
Maybe Thousand Sons and Tzeentch will have an exception rule allowing them to take any of the schools of magic.

Translation from the Spanish WD
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Any model with psychic powers may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k Rulebook instead of the C:CSM. If you choose to do so, for every psychic power that you have paid for from C:CSM you make take 1 psychic power from the following disciplines: Piromancy? Telekinesis or Telepathy before deployment. Models may choose to get their powers from different disciplines. Typhus generates 2 powers, Ahriman generates 3 powers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DD/MM/YYYY
19/06/2012
tDG has more rumours today, I thought the starter was to be released in September? If it really is CSM vs DA why would they release the starter set at the same time as the CSM launch leaving the DA codex outdated? DA WD codex at same time? Sounds really weird but it is GW we are talking about...


theDarkGeneral said:


> I'm sure there will be enough sonic weaponry in the new Codex to keep the Emperor's Children players quite happy.
> 
> As for release time, new models hit in less than 5 weeks with the 6th Edition Starter set and our Codex hopefully within a week or two of that. I was originally told August, I'd prefer it earlier than later!
> 
> I wonder what everyone's view are on Chaos Raptors and Chaos Assault Marines now that there's a juicy rumor about jump infantry striking at I(10) on the turn they assault? With their new models approaching and I'm assuming Hit & Run (for Raptors) stayed, I can see these becoming a mainstay unit of many Chaos Legions!


11/06/2012
Not only is it my dogs 5th birthday today we get some rumours as well


Grant said:


> Lucious Eternal is a beast! Gets extra attacks from difference in WS just like lilith from DE.
> The defiler is pretty damn good. It has a power called "daemon forge" which allows it to reroll all wound rolls and armor pen rolls in cc or while shooting.
> Typhus unlocks plauge marines as troops and gives them feel no pain in his unit. This is pretty much known already on most rumor sites I believe.
> Cover is definitely 5+. Again, not really news.


Some clarifications to the above rumours


> Plague Marines have FNP you don't need Typhus, it's the Cultist that get FNP and Fearless when upgraded to zombies with Typhus. Lucious the Eternals Attack profile is based on the WS of his opponent only in a Challenge. Daemon Forge is an optional to use ability that is only for shooting not CC. It allows to re roll failed armor pen or wound roll too, but you have to roll a D6 and on a 1 your defiler looses a Hull Point.


10/06/2012
theDarkGeneral and Stickmonkey have some more chaos rumours for us


theDarkGeneral said:


> Along with Daemon Engines, and a broader spectrum of vehicles for Chaos! Next Summer I believe is when the new Greater Daemons will be done and ready for release! (along with new Codex/Book)





Stickmonkey said:


> Maybe a little surprise here too...
> Plastic GreaterDaemons are done, rumored to have pieces to build named Greater Daemons as variants ( though not expected til 2013)


09/06/2012
More rumours about the small Daemons wave said to be coming this August. Why 5 Plague Bearers in a box though? Why not 10 when all the others are 10? Meh, it's GW and they probably think they can make more money this way... it's not like they've never done it like this before...
Source


stickmonkey said:


> Plague bearers (5x box) Plastic. Priced as pink horrors
> Furies (5x box) plastic. Priced as de scourges
> Blue scribes (finecast)
> Herald of nurgle (finecast)
> Maybe a little surprise here too...
> Plastic GDs are done, rumored to have pieces to build named GD as variants ( though not expected til 2013)


Here are some of the previous rumors, so that we can see them all in one place.


Whitehat said:


> August is Daemons wave (plastic troops, last two boxes)
> Apart from CSM, no more codexes/Armybooks this year





reds8n said:


> I've heard talk about this wave possibly including something new... which presumably would have rules in WD ( or online ?) or somesuch.





Stickmonkey said:


> Hearing bits that aside from Plague Bearers, there may be new furies in the works. As well as seeing karanak and hounds of khorne moved to finecast soon.


08/06/2012
Faeit 212 has some interesting rumours for us today
Source


Grant on Codex Space Marines said:


> *The book is called chaos space marines.
> *There are no legions. theDarkGeneral is wrong
> *I don't know if I mentioned it before but the "random terrain" is officially called "mysterious terrain"
> 
> *Also the anti psyker stuff in the book is a special rule called "suffer the witch". Every unit can negate a power on a 6 up but it can be buffed....yeah...can you say GK nerf?
> 
> *One is called ecstasy...which sounds weird but basically it allows the user to fire his weapon at his strength value. I can't remember what unit has it though!
> 
> *Some usr names in the codex are "strike down", "blind", and "un-weilding". Not sure what they do.
> 
> *There is a usr called "invisibility" that seems to have an affect on targeting a the unit and also effects assault.


07/06/2012
Very quiet on the rumours front at the moment, hopefully the floodgates will open up in a few weeks. Until then here is another quote from tDG


theDarkGeneral said:


> You won't need special characters to unlock Legion Armies, however some of them will make certain unit(s) much better. The flexibility of taking a "regular" Chaos Lord, or Sorcerer, or Daemon Prince, OR Aspiring Champion(s) will still be there, which of course will be able to lead your Night Lords or World Eaters or Iron Warriors.


Whitehat over at Dakka posted a list debunking or confirming some of the popular rumours going about. He also added this comment.
2 boxes of plastic daemon troops? Plaguebearers and Nurglings?
Source


Whitehat said:


> June 30 is 6th Ed
> August is Daemons wave (plastic troops, last two boxes)
> DA Early next year
> Apart from CSM, no more codexes/Armybooks this year


05/06/2012
With a month of just the same rumours being posted over and over we finally get something interesting


theDarkGeneral said:


> According to my contacts, we're about 2 months away from a Chaos Invasion, so let the galaxy tremble!!!
> 
> I do want to apologize for not being able to go into more detail about my previous post of what the Imperials have and we don't but will eventually get. Some of the things i listed will be very similar but not exact. I keep having players all over asking me about what kind of Land Raider will the newer version be...i don't know the name but it supposedly can carry 15 or 16 infantry models.


12/05/2012
Guess it's time for the yearly price rise again...


theDarkGeneral said:


> I want all Chaos players to know, that they should go ahead and buy whatever models from the current line they want, as none of it will become "obsolete", and the prices will be going up in June.


Warhammer World Mission Pack is out, what it does contain is an interesting Alliance Matrix. Some really interesting alliance options in that list;
Tau with Dark Eldar for instance (After what the DE did to the Tau I doubt they'd every want to ally with the DE again, DE would love to ally with the Tau though so I guess this is why they can.
CSM are pretty much what you'd expect while SoB dont like any SM chapter at all (which makes sense because of all the shit they've had to take from the Spheeze Mehreenez).
Mission Pack

09/05/2012
Psyker Disciplines in 6E, sounds really interesting but I really hope there is none of that random spells there is in WFB
Source


> -There will be at least 4+ "Disciplines" of Psychic Powers in the game. (WFB has 8 lores)
> -Disciplines seem to fall roughly along the lines of the sects described in the novel "A Thousand Sons" as used by the Heresy-Era chapter.
> -Each Discipline will have a "Default" power and a set of others that you will roll for each game.
> -Number of rolls you get and the the exact details of which powers you end up with are said to be similar to WFB 8th's power selection mechanic.
> -Powers have a "Casting Cost" that is different from the mechanic used in WFB 8th.
> -Certain 6th Codices will add additional racial specific Disciplines.


More from drbored on ether or not there will be new special chars n the codex
Source


drbored said:


> Alright guys, here's a little tidbit from my source.
> Apparently, this ex-forgeworld employee is certain that Chaos will get new Special Characters.
> 
> They will not be in the first wave of releases, but will be in the Codex. He's suggested that most of the rumors we're seeing (no new Special Characters rumor) are based on the first wave of model releases, not on actual Codex content.


Some more legion rumours, almost nothing new but a rumour is a rumour


warmaster said:


> i've been content till now to sit back and watch...but i think nows the time to chime in.concerning the soon coming chaos legions.....lets say "theoretically"(to protect my source)i have a close friend in game development.they have assured me that the new codex will be everything we debased chaos junkies have been hoping for and more!!!!!!
> 
> first,legions will be able to fight the way they are meant to, and with the way 6th editions % system will work,the armys will be even more legion specific playable.....
> 
> word bearers with all possessed as troops,or iron warrior armys with insane amounts of heavy weapons,all terminator black legion armys!!!!!also,dreadnaughts are not being replaced....they are being made even meaner and will have more weapon options-and NO RANDOM EFFECTS!!!!
> 
> there will be new characters...can you say little horus, honsou, argel tal, korpharon, the soul hunter...just to name a few.
> 
> existing characters will be made meaner and more playable(cost less).also,the new fluff is -as i was told-mind blowing,melt your brain down for a week!!!!
> 
> about 6th edition,i was told that it will blow your mind once you actually play it,the game is faster,bloodier and will turn you into a blood thirsty warlord who cant wait for his next fight!!!!!!
> 
> for those of you who are already complaining about the future with 6th edition i say this......wait and give it a chance,my source has told me that gw has been listning to us and that 90% of 6th edition was made with the input of veteran players
> 
> word has it all cult troops will be cheaper, and that the thousand sons magik abilities will make peoples heads spin!!!!basically chaos WILL BE THE BAD BOYS OF LEGEND.


08/05/2012
A 2012 release rumour list, so far it's been pretty


Darnok said:


> Alright, this is depressing. Really depressing. I thought this was a rumor forum. Well, I scoured the heck out of this grand ol' internet of ours back in December 2011, and I'm going to list off what I have heard is planned for the year of 2012 (surprisingly accurate for the first four months, almost five).
> 
> January: Vampire Counts army book (I made this list right when the first VC rumors started hitting, which is actually what made me want to consolidate the rumors that I put stock in)
> February: Vampire models
> March: Tyranid and Space Wolves model waves (I had heard a lof of Space Wolves, Nids and Necrons, and just did put stock in another full Necron wave yet)
> April: Empire army book
> May: Dark Angels or Chaos Codex (obviously I was misled about this one)
> June: Necron wave (off a month, but my May guess probably won't fall into June, because I don't see them releasing a 40K codex a month before 6th ed; so what's coming in June? Fantasy models)
> July: 40K 6th ed
> August: 40K model wave
> September: Warriors of Chaos book
> October: Empire models and Dark Angels or Chaos codex - whichever wasn't released in May (well, the latest rumors - as of 3 months ago since the well is so dry - *has this as Chaos*)
> November: Hobbit!
> December Warriors of Chaos model wave and 40K model wave
> 
> So far, I've only been off by a month for one of the releases. And I'm looking forward to my friends and all the other naysayers eating their words when they find out I've been right about the rest of the year.



06/05/2012
Stickmonkey has some flier rumours


Stickmonkey said:


> To feed some actual rumors in here.
> 
> Wave 1 in june is as bow has revealed. But i am expecting the de bomber before end of summer along with a tau and chaos sm flyer. The csm flyer is likely w the codex so the other two may have "something" with them.


Some more 6E and Chaos rumours from Grant
Source


Grant said:


> Cheers gentlemen!
> I know all of these rumors sound bloody ridiculous but they may not be bad for the game at all. I have been chatting with the source for my documents, we both feel that based off of the csm codex that assaults off of consolidation will be back as well as possibly off the bloody deep strike. This is not only backed up by the fact that they are "nerfing" assault range, but also because of 2 special rules.
> 
> Mates say hello to bloody "snap fire" and the return of overwatch.
> 
> Snap fire - allows a unit to shoot at an attacking unit at bs 1 prior to being assaulted.
> 
> Also mates, since I'm posting I may as well add a snippet or two more to the firestorm...
> Rhino's have 3 hull points, Landraiders and the defiler have 4. Any damage chart result other than wrecked or explodes will take 1 hull point away.
> 
> HQ's can now challenge each other just like in fantasy. This must be accepted by opponent or is played normal. HQ that wins, wins the assault for his unit.
> 
> Chaos units that kill a unit get to roll on a chart for gifts from a chaos lord very similar to the power from pain rule that Phil gave to DE.
> 
> Thousand sons are still relentless and still have ap 3 bolters.
> 
> Cheers mates,
> Grant


04/05/2012
BOLS has a few rumours about cultists today
Source


BOLS said:


> Codex author is Phil Kelly
> Chaos Cultists are available in blob squads into the thirties...
> Certain Named Characters grant various USRs and other special rules to Cultists when selected.
> 
> Ahriman is said to give D3 units Infiltrate in the new Chaos Marine codex (in addition to being a Mastery Level 4 Psyker.


30/04/2012
People have been raging about about TastyTastes rumour about Chaos Dreads being gone but that's pretty much impossible if you take into consideration all the Forge World dreadnoughts and weapons. Such a thing would invalidate all of them and sounds utterly ridiculous, which is why it sounded plausible as it's GW we are talking about. A new rumour "corrects" TastyTaste saying that dreads are still in but simply renamed and getting a complete overhaul, not really sure why a renaming would be necessary as a dread is still a dread no matter how messed up it is. Then we have the Chaos flying Dragon thing, all armies have been getting fliers and Chaos will of course not be an exception. Will they get 2 fliers? Locust and the Dragon?
Source


> Chaos Marines
> -The "flying dragon thingy" is coming. It is a flyer and one of two entirely new units added to the codex.
> -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.
> -The Chaos Dreadnought is indeed still there (take a breath people), but gets a new name, and a rules overhaul.
> -Hardcover book (just like Fantasy army books)
> 
> 
> 6th Edition
> -Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
> -There will be "lore equivalents"
> -Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
> -Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
> -The FOC may be history


27/04/2012
TastyTaste as put up some rumours today, breaking his site as always.
Rules for traitor guard sounds really cool but does it mean actual unit entries or just some allied rules?


TastyTaste said:


> It is about time we get some information on the new Chaos Space Marine codex. Before we get right into let us start out with some ground rules.
> The Chaos Space Marine codex is the only 40k codex for this year. It is not going to be divided into two codexes or anything special. This is not the return 3.5 codex everyone has been wanting this is more a clean up than anything else.
> With that said let us get started.
> 
> Troops choices will be Chaos Space Marines and Cultists
> All Cult Marines are Elites
> No new Special Characters
> Special Characters will unlock Cult Marines as troops (Kharn for Berserkers and so on)
> Typhus makes Cultists into Zombies
> Chaos Dreadnaught is removed and replaced with a new unit (like how pariahs were replaced with Lychguard)
> CSM now get a Flyer a Mechanical Chaos Dragon (model is done will be part of initial release)
> Lesser and Greater Demons are gone
> Spawn replaced by “Fell Beast”
> 
> I feel like I am missing something…
> Oh yeah…
> Almost Forgot...
> Rules for Traitor Guard are in!





BramGaunt said:


> As far as I've been told the unlock thing is correct, BUT!
> 
> Kharn, Ahriman etc unlock cult troops as general troop choices, as many as you whish. I heard that for each general HQ choice you grant a mark of a Chaos God, you can take one Cult Unit as core aswell. So, an army with Kharn could have as many Units of Berzerkers to go along with him as he whishes, because he's usually surounded by these guys. If you 'only' have a Chaos General with Khorne's favor he still may grant one unit of his favorites to the general to support his cause.
> 
> I was also told that you would have to name one of your HQs as your army's general, because that's the one who'll give you troop choices. So if you had Ahriman and Kharn, you'd have to pick between berzerkers and Thousand Sons as troop choices, you won't have both


26/04/2012
TastyTaste over at BoK posted a release schedule rumour today, a pretty horrifying one at that. Then again it could be true as Fantasy had to wait a long time for army book updates after their new edition of the game.
So now we have 2 sets of release rumours, one so jam packed with 40K it seems to be too much 40k in too short a time span and this rumour with almost no codex updates this year but allot of model releases instead.
Source


TastyTaste said:


> 40k players will only get one codex this year and that is Chaos Space Marines– along with 6th edition of course.
> 
> So the time-table has changed and looks like this:
> 
> June-July 6th Edition
> 
> Sept-Oct Chaos Space Marines
> 
> Sprinkle in some flyers, buildings, and that is all you will see from the 40k front for the year.


23/04/2012
An interesting release schedule rumour popped up today, including some 6E starter box content rumours.



DrLove42 said:


> OK so I went to a comp last weekend (yesterday in fact ).
> At this I had a chat with a guy who until recently used to be a GW manager. He talked with me a bit about upcoming stuff.
> 
> Now I know this seems like the least credible source in history (better than my brothers friends sister works at a printing company though) but other people from the club he'd come from say hes usually been right about his rumours;
> 
> May
> Next wave Necrons. Also a suprise wave of fliers (the DE Voidraven, Necron Fliers, an Ork Fightabomba and a aircraft for regular marines. Maybe stuff for other races wasn't sure)at the end of the month, with rules in WD
> 
> DA
> Next Book.- Preorder at end of may for beginning on June release
> 
> 6th Ed
> End of June.
> 
> 6th Ed starter box
> Will not be released in the traditional pre-UK games day slot, and will likely be earlier (when he didn't say)
> 
> Chaos vs DA. DA includes 5 Ravenwing, 5 Deathwing, some Tac Marines and a Deathwing Commander.
> 
> Chaos includes some chosen, a sorceror and a boatload of cultists (He did say he didn't see a Dread - which is against every other rumour thus far I think - But he did admit only seeing some of the sprues- Sorceror also opens up possibilites of those plastic Plaguebearers we've heard about before)
> 
> Chaos
> Will be before the box set, supposedly preorders up at the end of July.
> 
> Tau
> November.
> 
> He claimed GW are trying to release 3 codexes and the main rule book this year, in addition to another fantasy book and the hobbit stuff, so releases may seem more closely packed than we're used to
> 
> As I said, credibiltiy seems laughable, but I believed him. Maybe that makes me an idiot. We'll just to wait and see.....


18/04/2012
An interesting rumour popped up today, after Necrons in May we will get 6E, Chaos and DA pretty much hand in hand. Does this mean 6E and 2 dexes (dicies for u grammar nerds) in the same month?

Personally I could see something like this:
May 5th Necron 2nd Wave
Mid May Fantasy, anything missing from the Empire army book?
June 6E and a Codex (My money would be on CSM)
July Fantasy
August Dark Angels
September 6E Starter box

This does seem weird though, so perhaps:
May Necron
June Fantasy
July 6E and Codex
August Fantasy
September Codex and Starter set

Too much 40k too close to each other...
Source


Adeptus Miniatures said:


> After a long night of gaming with our local gamesworkshop lads we can confirm all new leaked info for the next few months ahead!!! Next month we will see the second wave of releases for the necrons! This includes wraiths, doom scythes and much more!! We can also confirm in the months after this all new dark angels and all new chaos legions codex to go hand in hand with the release of the much anticipated 40k 6th addition!!!!!!! :O (Oh btw theres some fine case lord of the rings too but thats not all important) - Sam


theDarkGeneral has posted some tidbits yet again.


theDarkGeneral said:


> Well, with prices going up yet again in June, if any of ya'll are fond of current models I'd buy them now. Much will change once the Chaos Codex Legions hits and the next year after will be full of releases.
> 
> With lots of "New" special characters ranging from bikers to (possibly) a dread and quite a few Terminator Armored ones, that'll set many players back. Daemon engines (like the Defiler) become much better and much more upgrade-able along with a few new models.
> 
> I can't comment on Chaos Cultists because I've never asked about them (nor do I care much about them). They don't fit in a Chaos Legions Codex to me personally, but perhaps a new Campaign or Lost and the Damned White Dwarf codex?
> 
> What will I be adding when the new Codex hits? Cult Terminators first!!!


17/04/2012
Some bad rumours for Chaos just popped up, I guess time will tell just what we get. Never heard about drbored on the rumours mill before so not sure how accurate he is or has been in the past


drbored said:


> I got a rare opportunity to ply a wealth of information for some knowledge and insight about what's coming up next/soon.
> 
> Here's the rundown...
> 
> Dark Angels (May/June)
> 6th Edition (July/August)
> -Starter Box featuring Dark Angels vs. Eldar
> Eldar (Oct/Nov Xenos slot)
> 
> And somewhere in that mix is going to be a splash release of fliers that *should* include the Harpy, Voidraven Bomber, Doom/Night Scythe, and possibly more. When I mentioned 'Autumn of Fliers' I got a derisive snort, so we may see it sooner, we may see it later.
> 
> This confirms two things:
> 1. It's not going to be Dark Angels and Chaos for the Starter Box. GW is NOT going to put two power armor armies in the same box. Power armor is their bread and butter, and to put two power armor armies in one starter box doesn't follow any trends, going back to the Rogue Trader days. It *may* be Dark Angels vs. Tau, but my source suggested Eldar strongly for several reasons.
> -A. Eldar is a girl-getter. It's the one army that attracts more girls to the game than any other.
> -B. Eldar is currently the worst selling army.
> -C. Eldar has a massive loyal fanbase.
> Eldar are the logical step, and now they're the rumored next step in this coming Xenos season.
> 
> 2. Chaos is not going to be coming out this year, but may be slotted for early 2013. This is good and bad... bad because we don't get Chaos sooner. Good because it means Chaos will be a true 6th edition army, and not a 'made for' 6th edition army. This will put more time between the release of the rules and the finessing of the Codices, which means a better 6th edition Codex for Chaos. We could, of course, get a surprise, where they slam in a new Codex into the year, but that doesn't trend either. My source suggested, however, that we may see a lot of 'splash' releases packed in, with the aforementioned fliers being one.
> 
> As for my source, of course I can't reveal him. It'd be a plain disservice to his trust. What I can say is that he is a wealth of knowledge about all things GW, Forgeworld, and Black Library, and has many contacts therein (and I don't mean GW store managers. I mean Codex and BL authors, and GW and Forgeworld sculptors).
> 
> I would be very surprised if I was proved wrong by the passage of time and the developments therein, but such is the nature of the future. Take it or leave it, but I'm confident that you shouldn't have to take too much salt with this.


05/04/2012
Some more stuff from theDarkGeneral and Stickmonkey


theDarkGeneral said:


> there may not be much focus on newer Chaos Space Marine chapters, keeping things squarely on the original 9 Traitor Legions and their splinter factions. This means it's likely there won't be much or any love for Huron.
> 
> Chaos may get a form of Preferred Enemy, but was unsure which units.
> 
> On Daemons, Daemon Princes could wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures. What this means is unclear. Could be he means there are no God-specicif Daemons, or that they are there, just that they don't use "Marks".
> 
> Whilst on the subject of Daemon Princes, they will move more in line with the ones in the Daemon Codex but "with a more Chaos Space Marine feel", gong on to say they may gain specific benefits for different Legions.
> 
> Terminators were a big topic, Chosen may not have access to Terminator Armour (contradicting his previous rumour), but that Cult Terminators would return in some form. He went on to say he believed there would only be two Terminator units, claiming one was some sort of "generic cult" unit that was given special rules according to the Legion being played. He made sure to reinforce that this was an early playtest, so things could have changed.





Stickmonkey said:


> a plastic Chaos drop pod could be in the works, but tempered that by saying we probably wouldn't see it any time soon. Whether the kit is released soon or not, there could be a chance of the rules appearing in the Codex though.


02/04/2012
Another small bit from theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> The Daemon Prince will come in line more the way of the current Codex: Daemon version, however with a more Chaos Space Marine feel. It is possible the even Daemon Princes may gain benefits to being Legion specific. Perhaps an Iron Warriors Daemon Prince could grant more access to Heavy Support units or carry a heavy weapon himself! Maybe a World Eater Daemon Prince has Furious Charge...and Stealth for Night Lords?
> 
> With GW being much more secretive about releases, it's of course going to be harder for many of us to hear things, especially things we WANT to hear.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DD/MM/YYYY
29/03/2012
Last year we had "Summer of Fliers", this year we have "Autumn of Fliers", personally I think the new Autumn of Fliers rumours seem plausible if we get flier rules in the 6E rulebook. Every army since Tyranids (except for Space Wolves and Sisters of Battle (though that WD piece of shit doesn't count)) has received a flier of some sort, if we do indeed get flier rules in 6E then GW will be forced to put out some fliers for their precious Spheezee Mehreenez especially if Chaos Legions is the first 6E codex and includes a chaos flier. Anyways, here are some rumours from Stickmonkey who was the source behind last years "Summer of Fliers" rumour.


Stickmonkey said:


> I also really like the Chaos flyer design. Was expecting something like the hell blade, and I am suitably impressed with the design. :evilgrin:
> 
> BTW, anyone fancy a plastic Chaos drop pod?


27/03/2012
Another quote from theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> Just a name I threw out there, because if the daemon spirits within. I haven't heard anything further on Legion specific rules. Daemons definitely aren't a focus, but daemonic possession is...might even be an HQ upgrade...
> 
> With 6th Edition changing the way deepstrike and reserves work, it'll be worth waiting on another Daemons codex.
> 
> I doubt Chosen will get access to Terminator Armor, with the return of Cult Terminators, and to keep different from regular Astartes. But I could be wrong on this.
> 
> Daemon Prince options are more similar to the Daemon Codex, even jokingly mentioning would it be cool if a daemon prince could carry a gun?





theDarkGeneral said:


> I believe there are two different types of Terminators.
> 
> As for the leaked 6th edition rules, they're a fabrication, most of it is false. There are a few things correct.


Small oddity from Black Library, is this a joke or is Aaron Dembski-Bowden writing the fluff/rules/everything in the Chaos Legions book? reflection that he might be reading the old CSM codex to find inspiration for future books? I for one would welcome new writers for the rulebooks as the quality GWs writers put out is abysmal, most new books can be broken in 5min of reading it! Where is the fucking quality control? Bah, lets hope Aaron has some part in the making of the book, he can't make it worse than GW would inevitably do can he?
Source


Andy Smillie said:


> For the Fallen made me angry, mainly because it ended. It has all the sharp, uncluttered description, well rendered characters and thoughtful use of language we’ve come to expect from Mr Dembski-Bowden. A touching piece about brotherhood and the mortality of the Emperor’s finest.
> Aaron, I know you’re reading this, put down Codex: Chaos Space Marines and go write some more Crimson Fists. Like, now.’ - Andy Smillie


Some Chaos flier rumours


StraightSilver said:


> There apparently will be a new Marine Flyer, similar size but different load out to the Storm Raven.
> 
> Chaos should get a Locust equivalent, and if Tau do come out next year they should also get something.
> 
> I hadn't heard about an Ork flyer, but I really wouldn't be surprised, although if that was coming this year I am assuming it would have White Dwarf rules?
> 
> The Locust is a small, fast single seater Chaos Flyer which features heavily in the Sabbat World's Crusade, think of it like the Chaos equivalent of an Imperial Lightning.
> 
> The info about Tau I have is very old, so the flyer I thought they were getting is now very unlikely, but I would imagine it will be smething similar.
> 
> 
> I do believe this has been in the pipeline for a while though, it can't be a coincidence that all of the recent Codices (except Space Wolves) have had a flyer of some sort in them.
> 
> IG: Valkyrie / Vendetta
> Tyranids: Harpy
> Dark Eldar; Razorwing / Void Raven
> GK: Storm Raven
> BA: Storm Raven
> Necrons: Night Scythe
> 
> And there has to be a reason the Hydra has been held back, as it is one of the best things in the IG Codex (admittedly that doesn't mean much I know) and shoud be a simple kit to produce.
> 
> I also had it from a good source (not one of my usual sources, and not as directly involved, but a good source none the less) that there is a big change coming to the hobby regarding flyers.
> 
> I don't honestly know if that means rules in the core rule book, or a supplement, but they will apparently be getting a lot of attention.
> 
> For everyone hoping for a Thunderbolt, Barracuda, Remora etc though I think that's very doubtful as Forge World produce them and the guys I've spoken to at GW are quite adamant that it isn't in their interests to tread on their toes


26/03/2012
And yet another post from theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> A lil' additional note: another member asked if I could comment on Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs...
> 
> Well from what I've gathered from everything i'm being told (and again i'm sure some of it is incorrect) there's not a lot of focus or attention on newer Chaos Space Marine chapters. The focus is mostly on the original 9 Traitor Legions and some of their direct splits.
> 
> This doesn't mean that some of these Characters like Huron won't appear, I really don't know. It does seem however that GW main is letting Forge World handle more of the 'successor' chapters and Traitor Guard options.
> 
> I can see GQ main eventually making another Lost and the Damned style codex, but perhaps not for at least another year. They still have Daemons (both 40K & Fantasy) and Warriors of Chaos scheduled tentatively for sometime next year, might be a lot of extra Chaos going around that could flood the market and not sell as well. I'd like to think they would, but GW main often makes decisions that I say "huh???" to.
> 
> Personally I'm still focused on the fact that Chosen FINALLY get some models, and lotz o' cool upgrade options! With the mention to me of Bikers a few times, i could easily fathom Chosen having the following upgrades: Jump Packs, Bikes, Dread Claw/Rhino/Land Raider Daemonicus, etc.
> 
> I have also been pondering a lot about the Possessed and their possible upgrade traits. Rending and Fleet would of course be sensible and nostalgic, but Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Wings, Power Weapons, Preferred Enemy and Stealth come to mind. If it is only 2 upgrades max, and those are our options what would players lean towards? Maybe a 16 man squad of Possessed w/Wings and Rending? Or perhaps Preferred Enemy w/Furious Charge?
> 
> OH YEAH!!! I do believe we get a form of Preferred Enemy, but i'm not sure exactly which units...i assume it'd be Cult units like Thousand Sons, Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Raptors and Cult Terminators???


Another small note from theDarkGeneral, I hope this isn't true as I'd love to have daemonettes or plague bearers instead of generic daemon 1,2,3...


> Daemon Princes are currently the only Marked Daemons...


23/03/2012
Nothing new but interesting none the less


theDarkGeneral said:


> Well, The Dude has once again translated nicely what I was trying to say/imply. The Chaos Legions Codex will be full of "uber" power and cool rules and modifications to make current "things" more useful. Will we be Grey Knights? NO! Even mentioning that is an insult to our Dark Masters!
> 
> I feel if players want to compare us to other Astartes Codexes, they'll find reasons to be disappointed. We ARE NOT them, but a much more modified version, tainted, corrupted, full of hate and desire for power and millennium age old vengeance! Spiky, vicious, fierce, evil, dark, and cool as hell, that's how I'd describe our new models. As they should be!
> 
> Will Alpha Legion get as much attention and love as the World Eaters? Not from GW basic, but then, that's where Forge World comes in! Will Emperor's Children have Hell Knights? Or Silver Towers of Tzeentch for Thousand Sons? Not for a while...but if I were to mention (again) that a plastic kit for a fabled "gunship" and "jackal scout" where done a long time ago, and for GW reasons not released yet, would that excite you?
> 
> Well, as for the hopes of Drop Pods/Dread Claws and Hell Talons/Flyers, yeah yeah yeah, I was told we'll get some of those, but I find it hard to believe that GW would give us actual Drop Pods...Dread Claw variants, probably. I doubt Forge World would cry much over the low sales Dread Claw they offer, and probably either upgrade it's rules to be a lil' better/more expensive or just keep it on the back burner for all their other Chaos models being released. Don't expect "exact" Hell Talons, but very fast shoot you up with hvy auto-cannons, I was told yes.
> 
> Again, I personally have a lil' hard time believing the inclusion of these into our Legions, but it'd make sense and it'd be VERY welcomed! As for the whining about Grey Knights, the current Chaos Codex can actually defeat them (and Space Wolves), i've done it enough times, however such lists tend to be "rock paper scissor" against most other Armies.
> 
> HAHahhahaha...yeah, lil' slip on the "Fex" commentary. I do hope they go with a 2 shot version of the Havoc Launcher!


22/03/2012
Another small note by theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> Most of the game costing you randomness is gone, so we'll be able to once again control our Legions with a bloody iron gauntlet! Possessed will be much more dangerous, and as such a viable unit again. I believe a character model allows one or more units to be taken as a Troop.





theDarkGeneral said:


> Possessed could end up much like the Ogre Kingdoms Maneaters, which pick two different abilities from a decent lust, before the battle. I'd much prefer simply paying X pts a model for rending if I want it, or keep the models basic and thus cheaper points wise. This is a much better option for us, allowing fexibility.
> 
> I've not ignored the questions on Dread Claws, or super sonic speeders, truth is I doubt what i've been told. It's interesting to note that as with many Apocalypse pkastic kits, some were made for "big" things but never released do to 6 sprue count problem and market decline. I believe for Chaos we're really in for a treat ;-)
> 
> Some of the sketch work i've been privy to has me saving all my extra cash for the release!!! Someone recently asked me if I was more excited about the Codex or the new models...i'm a Mega-Apocalypse Event organizer and player, so new models get me pumped! The new Codex will be awesome and extend story lines, grant us new rules like improved Havoc Launckers, but there will always be those "sour grapes" complaining their Legion or unit or army design got screwed...ugh...these players aren't true followers of Chaos, and will get ridiculed heavily from me!


20/03/2012
Yet again some more from theDarkGeneral, mostly wishlisting but interesting none the less


theDarkGeneral said:


> I do love all the enthusiasm that old and new Chaos players have towards our hopefully soon release! Dreadnoughts become useful again is a huge hit with me! (i have 18)
> 
> As far as trying to figure out what really is coming out, I did have a thought...i know my buddies mentioned seeing new bikers, but I was a bit "hopeful" that something I mentioned to Phil a couple years ago may come to fruit...Attack Bikers for Chaos, with Reaper Auto-cannons!!! It'd be fluffy in the sense that it's keeping with our themed weaponry as well as makes sense for us to have something "Imperial" yet not quite...heavy bolters or upgraded to Reaper Auto-cannons!
> 
> Emperor's Children: My much hated and loathed rivals! LOL! Well...don't rely to heavily on Lash of Submission, as it really comes in line with the current version in the Daemons Codex, which includes only being able to affect a unit once per turn. (FINALLY!) If they kept the vehicle Legion specific upgrades in, then you'll have some cool Dreads and Predators, and "possibly" a new heavier sonic weapon than has a chance to crack Land Raiders. Maybe Rending? Not sure.
> 
> I'm soooooo very much looking forward to some new models! Forge World has kept me quite happy (both in Fantasy and 40K), but it'd be nice to have a bunch of new plastic models to chop up and convert and paint and send to war!
> 
> IF what i've been told is the 100% truth, we could see Chosen with Jump Packs (expensive), Possessed with Wings (kinda expensive), Chaos Assault Marines (average), and Raptors!!! Speed kills...
> 
> AND, on the subject of Chaos Assault Marines...IF the Cult Marines gain access to Jump Pack upgrades (moving their slot), how cool and useful and bad ass would that be?!??!??! Death Guard hopping forward to assault and "flame" up enemy squads? Berzerkers that can get their quickly, collecting skullz along the way? OH...and super psycher Thousand Sons within range of their new powers? If they keep AP3 bolters...ouch!
> 
> Ahhhhhh...really wish I knew more!


19/03/2012
The last part of this is interesting yet contradicting at the same time.


theDarkGeneral said:


> Hmmmm...i do hope players understand that the Codex is meant to do two things; firstly it's going to allow all us "older vet" players the ability to once again field a Chaos Space Marine Army that feels and plays like a specific Legion like they used to, secondly it's still going to allow very fexible builds for those accuctomed to the current Codex. HQs "unlock" units in the sense of what they count as, wargear upgrades for squads and vehicles, daemonic access, and perhsps even unit sizes.
> 
> The codex will be in the ware houses within couple months, wish I could for sure say May is their sneak peek...
> 
> Chosen and Possessed probably have the biggest overhaul of all units. The fact that you can probably take Chosen as a bodyguard unit and count towards you HQs will greatly free up Elites points...


Some more from theDarkGeneral, he/she mentions the Rage rule. I really dont like the current Rage rule as a Sisters of Battle player with both of my favourite units in 40k having it, Sisters Repentia and Penitent Engines, I did however really like the Rage rule in the "Heretics Rulebook" (aka 6E leak).

Here is how that works:
Rage: You can move as you want but if you come within 12" of a VISIBLE unit you have to do a morale check at the start of the movement phase. If failed you must charge and assault the nearest visible unit. For every raging model lost in the unit the roll is modified by -1. Ignores the rule while broken, embarked or no enemy visible.


theDarkGeneral said:


> "If" Rage returns for World Eater units, it'll be governed by the old rule already mentioned, where each unit simply takes a Ld test at the beginning of the turn. Failure means you move towards and assault if possible the closest visible enemy unit (that can be assaulted).
> 
> Chain Axe talk has come up again...i believe they had two ideas of revamping them...first was giving them rending, the second was +1 strength. Time will tell if either made it into the new Codex.
> 
> Speaking of the Codex, I know I always refer to it as Chaos Legions Codex, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's correct. It's just what i've come to refer it to, as it was originally a project that was to be 3 separate Codexes (i know codices is grammatically correct, but I don't care) that were to delve deeper into the the original Traitor Legions and many of their off shoots.
> 
> Balance of power? Well...there well be plenty of power, however unless you're playing Apocalypse games, most units can't move from Elite to Troop or Fast, etc. Imagine an Iron Warriors player (bringing a Warsmith HQ) that can take Havocs as either Heavy OR Elite OR both???? I'm not sure on this, but it was mentioned to me.
> 
> Alpha Legion, well...as i've mentioned over a month back, will more then likely have lots of Infiltrating abilities that pass on to transports. Scouting Land Raiders full of meta-gamed Chosen????!!!! LOL!
> 
> I do really hope I can get more info on the possible NEW Predator upgrades!!! I hope I'm not being yanked by my boyz on this!!!


18/03/2012
Dont know how reliable theDarkGeneral is but this rumour is interesting none the less, updating info to reflect it


theDarkGeneral said:


> The new Codex is done, and yeah, it should be leaving the printers shortly, to be stored up in ware houses for distribution within the next couple of months. As for models, apparently 4 waves are planned...there's a lot of Chaos to be covered. With the Daemons to be redone sometime next year (2013) for both 40K and Fantasy, we'll see the new Greater Daemon models then.
> 
> Interesting that vehicle upgrades have been brought up, especially for Legion specific types of weapons, and apparently we do get some similar to the old "3.5" codex in these. Poisoned flamers for Nurgle, higher strength/lower AP for Tzeentch, sonic weaponry for Slaanesh and brutal blades for Khorne? Raptors are Night Lords, where as Assault Marines are all Legions and can be marked.
> 
> As i've already mentioned, HQs will have an affect on the types of units/marks available to your Army. IF 6th Edition returns to Percentages, the Codex will make more sense...


15/03/2012
Updated the thread with all the information from all rumour threads out there I could find. If you think something is missing please send me a link.

14/03/2012
As there has been an increase in the amount of Chaos Legions rumours (and that Tau rumours have all but gone extinct) I'm throwing together this compilation. If there is anything you think is missing please send me a pm with a link to the rumours or information. First set of rumours is from a compilation by Faeit 212: Warhammer 40k News and Rumors
Source
via Harry
I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.

via theDarkGeneral
theDarkGeneral contradicts this, saying he has heard of 3 separate Legions books with an even split of Legions in each. He claims 2 are planned for release in 2012 and the third for early 2013. He further claims a “Lost and the Damned” style book and a “largely Daemon-based” campaign book are in the works for after that.

theDarkGeneral was supposedly given the Legion split breakdown as:
*World Eaters, Word Bearers and Nightlords
*Deathguard, Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children
*Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and Black Legion
theDarkGeneral more recently began supporting the Legions / Renegades split, agreeing that the current CSM Dex will be tweaked in White Dward and called Chaos Renegades.

Jared Van Kell say Mat Ward is rumoured to be writing the codex.
Reds8n contradicts this, saying Ward is tied up with other projects (likely LotR or Hobbit related) and that Phil Kelly will be writing this book. theDarkGeneral has recently agreed with this.
Minor Gods will supposedly make an appearance and all Legions will be included
The minor Gods are named, and will act in a similar way to marks, but have no Daemons.

the background will include info on “alliances, distrust and full fledged war within the 9 Traitor Legions” with Black Legion referred to as "arrogant"

Each Legion will have something unique to them, but will have unit restrictions to offset their inherent bonuses

it won't change according to your Legion (HQs) as in swapping more Heavies for less Fast, but your access to units in those categories opens up, becomes limited, or closes off accordingly. Easy example I was given, is taking Khorne Daemon Prince means no Scouts...

*Nightlords: I don't ask much about them, though a lil' i have for my buddy Paul has around 25,000+ points of them...Hit & Run and Stealth for universal special rules, but possible counter attack (for elite unit) as well as jump pack troops.

*Word Bearers: Apparently getting a lil' extra attention, and besides Dark Apostles, new models for "daemonancers", which just might be unit champs/sgt upgrades. I'm not sure. BUT, their summoning of Daemons from the Warp apparently allows re-rolls on the scatter dice, as well as new mishap chart!

Word Bearers: Will be able to take Marked units but with some restrictions. Apparently with all the current Black Library Books out on them (I'm enjoying their reads!), and mention of the Sanctified in Siege of Vraks, the ability to take Marked units has been brought up. Not sure how they'll do this, if it'll be a 1 unit for 1 unit.

Word Bearers are "zealots" and benefit from Chaplains as well as Turn 1 Daemon Summoning. New Daemonancers models are suppose to be SICK looking, but I believe just unit champ upgrades.

*Deathguard: Feel no pain and blight grenades for their Cult Terminators, new nasty flamers upgrades.
Death Guard gain a new ability (maybe Chosen squads only ?) that allows their poisoned attacks to ignore Armor Saves on a roll of a '6', much similar to Rending without the extra Armor Pen.

*Thousand Sons: AP3 bolters will be MUCH more useful under 6th Edition, and a couple new Psychic abilities, one of which (supposedly) can remove an entire enemy squad from the table on a failed stat test!

*Iron Warriors: Access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield termies, thunderfire cannon off-shoot, Havocs w/Tank Hunters and relentless for some squad...

Iron Warriors: Their Cult Terminators will have access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shields, as well as Iron-Fire Cannon (thunder fire). Basic Chaos Marine squads "may" be able to take an additional heavy weapons team once past 10 models...
Iron Warriors become "siege specialists" which equivalents to Tank Hunters and reducing cover saves on enemy units!

*Emperor's Children: Lash is finally changed to be more in line with Daemon version. More heavy weapons upgrade count for larger units. Better Bikes? Not sure what that means...

Emperor's Children have a haughtiness to them, but prideful, which may give them counter charge (on top of their already higher Initiative). More heavy weapons upgrades per squad, and their Chosen will be...scary fast!

*Alpha Legion: Lots of infiltrating abilities, outflanking, and even temporary control of enemy squads/vehicles...basically sneaky bastards!

Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...

Alpha Legion apparently have the greatest access to Imperial style vehicles, as well as more of an unlimited Force Org slot selections, next to the Black Legion. Much of their Army will be able to upgrade to "Infiltrators".

Alpha Legion may force enemies to take Ld tests before they move or shoot.

*Black Legion: HQs allow broader access to all unit types, but lack of better universal special rules.

Black Legion, aka Sons of Horus, aka Luna Wolves are tentatively stubborn, and have greatest selection amongst the units/vehicles. HOWEVER, they're not fully trusted, not sure how this works out in game terms.

World Eaters truly become the combat monsters they're story lined to be. Marked Dreads, and Daemon Engines will be a prime staple in most Armies...

Chaos will likely struggle to combat psykers, but Khornate characters will have ways of nullifying psychic abilities aimed at them

Nurgle Flamers can be made poisoned 3+ or even 2+ (possibly through a special character).

He also thinks Plague Knives will be poisoned 4+ with 6s ignoring Armour Saves. Although he goes on to say it’s likely only unit champions and Chosen/Possessed that get them.

the majority of CSM units will retain Bolter, Bolt Pistol & Close Combat Weapon.

Daemonic Mounts will be useful, with the Undivided version "worth while" for non-Marked Legions. He also implied that Tzeentchian ones will be fast, saying “Thousand Sons will be VERY pleased with their new found speed.”

there may be an additional heavy weapon upgrade for Chaos units, but was supposedly told it's not a Plasma Cannon

HQ
we will see the return of Droomrider, Doombreed, and Cypher as well as another 5 new characters. This does not preclude any or all existing special characters being included.

there will be a Slaaneshi Dreadnaught special character.

Ahriman will be better due to new Chaos Psychic powers as well as "some kind of guaranteed psychic ability that can't be stopped via Psychic Hoods, etc"

several special characters look to be getting varying levels of Eternal Warrior (1-3), including Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus and two more.

there will be more options for "mid-level" characters possibly able to be taken as 2-for-1 HQ choices, or possibly "as a separate Elite or Fast or Troop choice that can be split off" The example he gave was a possible unit of Dark Apostles that can then split off as squad leaders. This could end up being a sort of Wolf Guard unit, it is not yet clear.

Elite
Chaos Dreadnaughts will no longer act randomly, and are able to take marks, but will not be able to be Venerable.

Possessed will be improved and supposedly have upgrades either already included or that you can pay for.

Chosen will get more upgrade options, but that they will get costly quickly depending on the Legion and wargear you select. Wargear options for them supposedly include Jump Packs, Terminator Armour, all types of Combi-Weapons, Twin Lightning Claws and more.

There is a chance that certain HQ choices can take a Chosen squad as a retinue.

a new unit called Brazen Knights consisting of "Skull Champions" (possibly super Khornate CSM Champions) riding Juggernauts. He has more recently suggested that this could in fact be an Apocalypse formation to be released around the same time.

early discussions included the idea of Legion-specific “Daemonic Rider” units, such as Disc mounted Rubrics, Beast mounted Plague Marines, Seeker mounted Noise Marines, and the previously mentioned “Brazen Knights”, but went on to imply development may have stalled because of the question, “What would the other Traitor Legions get?”

Troops
there will be some kind of “Scout unit” which will not be available to World Eaters.

God-specific Daemons will likely be included

Daemons will remain as they are in the Daemons Codex, but with slight points adjustments to reflect the ability to summon them and certain 6th edition changes.

Thousand Sons (Rubric Marines) will not get any weapon options, but the new psychic powers can certainly fill that role. He has more recently suggested they may get more unit upgrades, especially for the SGT/Sorcerer.

Fast Attack
“Assault Berserkers” with jump packs will be available as Fast Attack choices.

Spawn may possibly come in larger packs and gain the ability to be Marked

Heavy Support
Slaughterfiends from Apoc will be available, as well as versions for other Legions and Marks.

Obliterators maximum unit size is increased to 4 and may lose the restriction to just energy-based weapons.

most types of Daemon Engines can be taken as 3 per FOC slot. He has also implied that there may be a Tzeentchian one.

Legions will get a new Landraider pattern with a higher transport capacity (possibly 15) and is described as a "warped version of one of the Imperial versions”

It is also rumoured that Land Raiders will get a version of Power of the Machine Spirit

Marked Legions are rumoured to get Havocs

the possibility of a new Monstrous Creature that is not a Greater Daemon but can have Marks of the Gods. Not all Legions can take one. For example Night Lords and the Alpha Legion are supposedly unable to take one. No further info is available as yet.

Chaos may get more Predator weapon options similar to Razorbacks, revealing that one of these options could be a Twin Linked Plasmagun turret with single Plasmagun sponsons.

viaJared Van Kell
Honsou will make an appearance.

Kharn the Betrayer will become more survivable (likely due to Eternal Warrior and a 4+ Invulnerable save) but goes on to say “his bloodshed knows no bounds”

Cult Terminators are likely to return under the proviso that they will only appear in dedicated cult lists.

Misc.
Plastic Dreadnaught rumoured by Jared Van Kell from Liberium Online and theDarkGeneral. TheDarkGeneral claims it will include multiple Dreadnought close combat weapons types, such as the Chainfist, Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge, etc.

75hastings69 claims there will be one in the 6th edition starter set.

Plastic Plague Bearers rumoured to appear in the 6th edition started. This has more recently been denied by 75hastings69.

Darnok has said that plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted, indicating that if they are not in the starter box, they may have a full kit in the works.

Plastic Raptors have been confirmed by the ever-reliable 75hastings69

via 75hastings69
I can add to this that the new plastic Raptors are very nice

Also supported by Jared Van Kell who also claims they may come a little later.

Darnok says there is a possibility of new Obliterators, although he is unable to say if they will be plastic or Finecast.

theDarkGeneral has said he's heard about a brand new Chaos Bike kit (not just recut) with lots of bits. No further information available.

theDarkGeneral claims there will be some way of converting Legion-specific models using a sprue of heads and shoulder pads which will fit all Power Armour kits. These would be Direct Only much like the Deff Rolla sprue for the Ork Battlewagon.

via Harry
What I heard was a box with the bits to make different legions.
But I thought this was something to do with Chaos Space Marines and the kit including various heads, spiky bits and icons to make different flavours of Chaos Marines.

theDarkGeneral has elaborated somewhat, saying Power Armour and Terminator bits could be separate:

via theDarkGeneral
So basically, all the Legions will buy the same boxed set for the majority of their models, but to make them Legion specific, separate sprues will be sold which will include shoulder pads, heads, banners, few weapons, etc. Terminators will also get separate sprues made available to them to become Legion specific.


Darnok tells us that painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted, but that they could be conversions. It is also possible they were built using the above rumoured sprues.

ant1clock let us know his local GW told him that the Thousand Sons kit is no longer available because they are moving to Finecast. It is unclear if this means a new, all Finecast kit, or if the existing metal components will move to FC.

Kharn the Betrayer– Rumoured new miniature is described by Jared Van Kell as “bulkier and still ferocious in motion”

There’s some chatter about a boxed set featuring a named character from every legion. Jared Van Kell has implied this will be Horus Axiamand, Honsou, an unknown Raptor Lord (Night Lords?), Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman, Typhus, and Lucius the Eternal. This could be where conflicting reports of the inclusion of some characters has come from.

via Darnok
an Iron Warriors character (?) has been seen, with a huge servo harness


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Awesome, the Daemon Engines, could these be similar to the FW Blood Slaughterer?


----------



## bitsandkits

3 books makes no sense, it should be either be two or four, two would make the most sense as it would be similar to the old realm of chaos books, either way i cant see three books.


----------



## TheReverend

You start reading the massive list of things that might be coming and then start thinking there's a lot of wish-listng there. And then the whole plasma-predator thing, which I first read about when someone was hoping the DA's would get that... maybe cross contamination. 

Who knows, at least it looks like there will be some cool things and some changes. I'm hoping for more fluff, especially about the legions we know little about (same as I'm hoping for fluff on white scars, imperial fists and iron hands in the next codex:sm really).

Rev


----------



## bitsandkits

I have to agree with Rev, thats alot of new toys, but then again chaos is drastically in need of a revamp and almost from the ground up, they have some serviceable plastics but compared to many races they are seriously lagging behind, that said GW normally put out about 3 plastics a month and we get about four 40k releases a year give or take so thats only about 12 new plastics so unless they are gonna spread the releases over a longer period i can see some of that stuff being wish listing.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Words_of_Truth said:


> Awesome, the Daemon Engines, could these be similar to the FW Blood Slaughterer?


I believe Daemon Engines were first introduced in the Audio drama Fireborn, the one about the Salamanders and Sisters of Battle. Basically it completely destroys all the Sisters of Battle, they can't even scratch it, not even when a Sister holds a melta bomb against it blowing herself up. Nothing the Sisters do can stop it but in the end a Salamander dude kills it by throwing a thunder hammer at it. Dont remember much about the description of the daemon engine but it was powerful.



bitsandkits said:


> 3 books makes no sense, it should be either be two or four, two would make the most sense as it would be similar to the old realm of chaos books, either way i cant see three books.


I agree, I added it as it was posted in the rumours round up, I later found the 3 book split into Legions, Renegades and Daemons which make allot more sense.
This would however mean that the Chaos Legions book would be massive, similar size or bigger than the Space Marine codex.

I really hope they dont split it up as GW has a hard time even updating 3 books a year.


As for the amount of new stuff lets speculate a bit.
Probably Finecast:
Daemonancer model
Iron Warriors character with huge servo harness
Obliterators remade in finecast or plastic
New Kharn the Betrayer
"Bulkier and still ferocious in motion"
Doomrider
Thunderfire Cannon/Iron-Fire Cannon

Special Character box including:
Horus Axiamand
Honsou
Unknown Raptor Lord (Night Lords?)
Kharn the Betrayer
Ahriman
Typhus
Lucius the Eternal

Plastic Kits:
Plastic Plaguebearers
Plastic Plaguemarines
Plastic Dreadnought
Plastic Raptors
New Plastic Chaos Bike kit (Rumoured Attack Bike?)
Daemon Engine (Perhaps the rumoured slaughterfiend?
New Landraider (New upgrade sprue is all that would be required)
New Predator (New upgrade sprue is all that would be required)
Landspeeder
Plastic Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines
1 New kit with the Bike kit which would most likely be the rumoured Attack Bike
1 New kit for Khorne jump pack infantry or could be combined with Khorne jump infantry
Probably 1 or more plastic kits for Khorne on jugg, plague on beast, Tzeench on disks etc

Head, Shoulder or Torso swaps
1 New kit or perhaps just torso swaps for plague marine bikers, most likely just torso and head swaps to go with older bike models, perhaps finecast like plague marine torsos and shoulders.
Legion specific heads and shoulder sprue
Power Armour and Terminator bits could be separate
Cult terminators have been sighted, but could be conversion or above mentioned kit

Allot of these are just remade metals into plastics, allot of these could also simply be upgrade sprues. In the end I think we are looking at 5 or so new plastic kits, rest are just old redone. That sounds about right to me, allot of special characters though but current range most likely redone into finecast.
It might seem like allot of new stuff, perhaps even too much for a single army book but I think it's about right. They would probably drag the release on for years and years.... a few of these could even be Chaos Daemons related like plaguebearers so could be released with the new Daemons book.

So what do you guys think? Am I off?


----------



## bitsandkits

I cant see upgrade sprues i can see full plastic units like Blood angels as they are cheaper to make ,the chaos marine sprues already have five sprues so an upgrade would mean five or possibly six where as a new sprue would mean two or four sprues like the death company or wolf pack respectively


----------



## MadCowCrazy

bitsandkits said:


> I cant see upgrade sprues i can see full plastic units like Blood angels as they are cheaper to make ,the chaos marine sprues already have five sprues so an upgrade would mean five or possibly six where as a new sprue would mean two or four sprues like the death company or wolf pack respectively


So how many new plastic kits do you think we'll see?
The numbers stack up pretty fast but I guess it's possible, personally I think we'll see something like the space wolves kit where you get a buttload of bits to make your models with.

I dont really think it's feasible for them to have 4 boxes for most new units, heck it'd be 5 boxes for different Bike units, 4 boxes for the riders if those a true. We'd be looking at 20+ new boxes and I dont think they'd do that.


----------



## MidnightSun

I don't like the sound of this. It's still too restrictive. Since when did the Word Bearers have an abnormally low vehicle count? Or Night Lords? And ask Daemons how first-turn DS goes for them. Wow, I get lots of fragile, un-transportable models clogging my fire lanes in turn one. Dark Apostles and Daemomancers I like, as do I like the idea of multiple types of Daemon.

Overall, I call wishlisting because they've listed Dark Apostles seperately to Chaplains. Pretty sure GW wouldn't make that big a fluff blunder unless they're changing the fluff radically.

Midnight


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## jondoe297

A lot of it does sound like wish listing, esp some of the special characters. 
They may do something like the grey knight box where one box makes many, but the cult troops are waaaay to different to do that.
They will release a big toy to go with them, most likely this daemon engine thing, maybe a defiler variant?
I can't see three books being released, Maybe a cult book (ie the core four) and a legion (the other main 5) book. 
I hope they have characters unlocking certain things BUT as long as they aren't unique characters like the SM codex. I like d the concept of the SM codex but not tat you need a SC to have a CF list, or RG list
Proper excited about the prospect of a new dex! I'm not fussed who writes it out of kelly or ward!


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I want the Doomrider bit to be true. Be nice to see him back on the table. Although I have severe doubts about Aximand since we do not know if he is going to be killed off in the Horus Heresy books.


----------



## TheReverend

I'm sure it's not all wish listing, I'm hoping theres some good stuff, and I definitely think GW are putting some false rumours out there. Just from listening to different store managers around the country as I travel around for work, they all have a different story "that they heard at head office...". Some have dates for when chaos legions are coming (November), some have heard nothing about the paint rumours...

The box set of characters would be a cool thing, but it's almost unprecidented so not confident they'll do this.


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## MidnightSun

Well, we can rule out Honsou right away, because GW can't make characters before BL gives them the say-so, IIRC. Doomrider isn't coming back, because there's too much of a risk of a.) Parents worrying about exposing their children to something like Doomrider, and b.) the very real risk of being sued by Charlie Sheen.

Plus, 19 new kits/blisters and rumours of even more stuff than that? I doubt it. Although I must say I doubt that they'll redo any of the vehicles or add any more non-Daemon Engine/Chaos-only (Usurpers etc.), because that's what the Loyalist Codex is there for. Loyalists should get quality vehicles and wargear, Chaos should get the raw stats and MCs. That's the way it's always worked, in my mind.

But overall, I'll reiterate the fact that this rumoured Codex is FAR too restrictive, and thusly I'm hoping that this is almost entirely wrong.

Midnight


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## experiment 626

There's some stuff in there that was from Ghost21 and is known to be comlete bullshit, like Honsu and 'Little' Horus.

My personal hope is a re-worked book that gives plenty of options, but leaves the player with the ability to freely theme the army the way they see fit. (ie: if you choose IW's, you should still have the option open for berserkers since a number of grand companies do have such units!)
No more silly mark restrictions like if take an HQ with MoK, you can no longer access any Slaaneshii units either please. Perhaps I want my army to represent the classic confrontation between the World Eaters & Emp's Children that led to Kharn's famous 'betrayal' and the breaking up of his legion?!

I also hope that chaos marines keep Lesser Daemons, but gain the option to mark them. So for example, adding the MoK might give +1A + furious charge? MoS could give +1I + rending and so on...
Worst possible thing GW could do would be to give chaos marines '6th edition Daemons' and then leave us poor proper Daemon players out in the cold, forced to use crappier & much more costly versions of the same fething unit/s!:angry: (or else GW will be forced to release a new Daemon codex within 4-8 months to bring us into line like what happened with TK's/VC's in Fantasy)

Hopefully GW do chaos the proper justice this time 'round, otherwise I'm going back to my 3.5 codex!


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## jondoe297

Don't get me wrong a lot of the stuff there I would like to see cult termies, options to make themed mono lists, the ability to share the love too, ie black legion style. I just think it maybe a bit too much cake and eat it syndrome! Other than the nids codex they have all been pretty good so I think its just petty griping that worries it will be worse! I would like to see just a single chaos tomb as it were, where from it you could have traitor guard, daemons, dark mechanicus . . . . now whos wish listing ha ha!


----------



## stuff

I have to say I doubt they will remodel many of the kits that are already in finecast. I would say that noise marines and thousand sons are most likely to be getting new models, as both contain metal bits and haven't been on the shelves in any GW I have visited for months.

I think the above 2 and dreadnoughts are most likely to get new models. i think obliterators will not be remodelled but will be released in finecast. A few characters for the different legions maybe re-released in finecast and some new characters for the legions that haven't been so central in the previous codexes.

I think there will most likely only be one book again, but with more variation allowing you to build more heavily themed armies. As much as I want a complete overhaul I can't see it coming...


----------



## DreadLordRedAxe

I personally would love to see chaos dexes get broken up like the marines have. Undivided gets their own book so more akin to smurfs and the other dedicated legions get their own dex much like wolves blood angles ect ect. To me this makes more sense and would allow for far more diversity among the chaos forces. seriously these guys have had 10000 years to build whatever their twisted minds could come up with and all we get is the most basic stripped down versions of smurf gear and junk demons.


----------



## TheReverend

Ahh, thinking of the new character rumours, if we didn't get a new Ragnar, Grimnar, Ulrik or Techmarine sculpt, some of the oldest sculpts in the line, I can't see us getting a new Kharn, Abadon or oblitorators either...


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> So how many new plastic kits do you think we'll see?
> The numbers stack up pretty fast but I guess it's possible, personally I think we'll see something like the space wolves kit where you get a buttload of bits to make your models with.
> 
> I dont really think it's feasible for them to have 4 boxes for most new units, heck it'd be 5 boxes for different Bike units, 4 boxes for the riders if those a true. We'd be looking at 20+ new boxes and I dont think they'd do that.


Its hard to guess these days, GW could in theory go completely bonkers with chaos, the range has the to potential to spawn numerous plastic kits, Even without including any never before seen units and not recutting anything they could fill up at least two release months just moving things like dreads,havocs,raptors,deathguard,thousand sons,noise marines,night lords from metal to plastic, then chuck in some finecast stuff like oblits and characters and you already have a massive release, then when you start looking outside the box to never seen before stuff like assault berserkers you could have stuff coming out for months. But that said chaos does actually deserve that kind of range, chaos in theory should be as varied if not more varied than the loyalist chapters, it really depends on GW and how much variety they want to include into the model range, Personally i think the chaos marine range is looking dated, berserkers could use a resculpt as they are very dated, the chaos marines themselves are dated,the sprues were recut for the last codex but the sculpts were the same as the old ones. The terminators are relatively new so i cant see much happeneing there but personally i think they look awful, i would always use the FW upgrade pack to give them something extra.

I have always thought the last chaos codex was a filler codex, it was poorly received and was a shadow of what chaos marines should be about, it felt like a half assed codex designed to fill a gap while GW really worked on something special for chaos, dont forget chaos is a very very large and important part of 40k, marine vs marine, brother vs brother, the heresy etc etc these things are the most influential fluff in the game and chaos marines have always been great sellers (well until the last codex) and allow peoples imaginations to run riot in terms of building themed armies,writing fluff and model making and converting, you only have to look at some of the amazing stuff FW have produced in the last 5 years to see that chaos fans are still there and GW will know that and will want to cash in.

If chaos marines are in the pipeline i think its gonna be a big deal and if they are included in the 40k box set then we will be sick of them by this time next year as they will be shoved down our throats from all angles, but rightly so they deserve a big relaunch more than any other army in my opinion.

My only concern is that GW dont put the models out quickly enough, the back lash for the second wave of nids and space wolves was justified and if GW do the same again we are gonna see third party companies pumping out quick and dirty kits to cash in yet again, GW should put out the codex and release all never before seen units with it and then the second wave should be the stuff that gets recut sprues,finecasted or new versions of old models like a plastic dread,raptors,havocs etc.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

Bits, I like reading your stuff and I think you know a lot about what's happening (at least speculating from a sound base!), but have noticed in this thread you keep referring to DG going plastic from metal - I'm sure they went Finecast last May, so surely they'll stay as Finecast?

Hope so anyway...

CtS


----------



## bitsandkits

Count_the_Seven said:


> Bits, I like reading your stuff and I think you know a lot about what's happening (at least speculating from a sound base!), but have noticed in this thread you keep referring to DG going plastic from metal - I'm sure they went Finecast last May, so surely they'll stay as Finecast?
> 
> Hope so anyway...
> 
> CtS


Trust me i just speculate, im no more informed than the next guy, but i watch GW much more closely than most do, i have to because of what i do.
The deathguard is an interesting point, yes they have become fine cast recently which some would say would mean they will stay that way, but i would counter that with the hive tyrant, he was fine cast for a very short time (so short im lumbered with one) too, IF GW decided to actually do legion codex then i would say DG would feature very heavily for Nurgle and there fore would likely get a plastic kit, Nurgle is for many chaos fans the number one chaos god, Khorne gets alot of attention but Nurgle will always be popular, look at FW they have 2 sets of chaos marine upgrades, world eaters and Nurgle, they also have alot of Nurgle related models in the range too, I would expect GW to release Nurgle marines of some sort in plastic, they may not be Deathguard but could be used as such. 

Dont forget fine cast molds go to shit quite quickly so if something is a good seller in fine cast i can see it moving to plastic, I can see a much quicker shift to plastic in the future for many things including characters, Warhammer fantasy already has a number of single plastic characters in blisters, i could see that being the future for 40k in the long run too, even the new characters we are seeing released in fine cast were likely sculpted assuming they would be cast in metal and many of the old sculpts in fine cast are just stop gaps until someone bothers or cares enough to replace them.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

Interesting points there, Bits... I'm a DG player/painter myself but haven't bought any Finecast PM yet. If they are to go to plastic, does that not place a big question over Finecast generally, if some models have already moved to it?

The moulds issue must be a serious one, I understood moulds to be quite expensive to produce?

Anyway, big danger of going Off Topic here, so let's leave that aside and pick it up another time...

Arabest,

CtS


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## bobahoff

Death guard will go rather nicely in my collection. 

Any way has anyone got any one got any gen on the horus aximand mini or rules whether he's gonna be a watered down abaddon or abaddons getting beefed up and little horus is getting his old rules.


----------



## MidnightSun

Little Horus won't be in it, because he's still being written about in the HH books, and he's a 30k character. I doubt that Aximand survives the Heresy, if I'm honest, as (correct me if I'm wrong) Abaddon would surely have him killed to secure power if he survived the many battles of the Heresy and Scouring. And I reiterate that I heard that GW can't publish characters until BL give them the say-so, and vice versa (BL can't kill off Vulkan He'Stan in the next Salamanders book, for example, because that shit doesn't go down well with fans).

I don't like the idea of a massive 5-book mega-release. Why? Because I like being a unique and special flower and don't want to see 90% of the player base playing Chaos Marines. If this does happen, I'll play them for a few months, but probably to GK if I don't like the hype.

Midnight


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## bobahoff

Abaddon is still being written about though. I suppose I just want a mini because I like the character. That and the fact he got his face chainsawed off, you have to admire a man who survives that


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## MidnightSun

I don't remember the specifics, but some characters are no-goes for GW. They may have abolished that policy a while ago, but AFIK it's still there in some form or another. Abaddon has had rules since 2nd ed, before they started writing the Horus Heresy, so he might be an exception,

Midnight


----------



## yostu

Is obvious that caos engine wont be in new dex.. it is just popped up from fw.. so surely we wont see it in normal gw rules


----------



## Death Shroud

If they don't makea plastic Noise Marine kit (which we could really do with considering the heavy weapons options) surely they'd have to transfer the current noise marine upgrades to finecast.


----------



## Mole120

Has anyone said about if night lords will get night fighting/acute senses rule, the clue is kinda in the name


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dont know how reliable theDarkGeneral is but this rumour is interesting none the less, updating info to reflect it


theDarkGeneral said:


> The new Codex is done, and yeah, it should be leaving the printers shortly, to be stored up in ware houses for distribution within the next couple of months. As for models, apparently 4 waves are planned...there's a lot of Chaos to be covered. With the Daemons to be redone sometime next year (2013) for both 40K and Fantasy, we'll see the new Greater Daemon models then.
> 
> Interesting that vehicle upgrades have been brought up, especially for Legion specific types of weapons, and apparently we do get some similar to the old "3.5" codex in these. Poisoned flamers for Nurgle, higher strength/lower AP for Tzeentch, sonic weaponry for Slaanesh and brutal blades for Khorne? Raptors are Night Lords, where as Assault Marines are all Legions and can be marked.
> 
> As i've already mentioned, HQs will have an affect on the types of units/marks available to your Army. IF 6th Edition returns to Percentages, the Codex will make more sense...


----------



## forkmaster

Well I want updates from this thread as well, so I'm jumping on the ride.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The last part of this is interesting yet contradicting at the same time.


theDarkGeneral said:


> Hmmmm...i do hope players understand that the Codex is meant to do two things; firstly it's going to allow all us "older vet" players the ability to once again field a Chaos Space Marine Army that feels and plays like a specific Legion like they used to, secondly it's still going to allow very fexible builds for those accuctomed to the current Codex. HQs "unlock" units in the sense of what they count as, wargear upgrades for squads and vehicles, daemonic access, and perhsps even unit sizes.
> 
> The codex will be in the ware houses within couple months, wish I could for sure say May is their sneak peek...
> 
> Chosen and Possessed probably have the biggest overhaul of all units. The fact that you can probably take Chosen as a bodyguard unit and count towards you HQs will greatly free up Elites points...


----------



## DeathKlokk

yostu said:


> Is obvious that caos engine wont be in new dex.. it is just popped up from fw.. so surely we wont see it in normal gw rules


Yes, it's totally obvious. Since FW has never had a model progress to plastic and be included in a codex.

Well, except for Valkyries... and Piranhas...and Venerable Dreads... and Manticores...and etc.

I jsut cannot wait until I can field my Chaos again without feeling like GKs or SWs are so OP. As with the IG book, it will be sweet to hear the cries of "Cheeese!!!" for my Chaos. :biggrin:


----------



## Boc

DeathKlokk said:


> As with the IG book, it will be sweet to hear the cries of "Cheeese!!!" for my Chaos. :biggrin:


Twil be glorious music to my ears...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some more from theDarkGeneral, he/she mentions the Rage rule. I really dont like the current Rage rule as a Sisters of Battle player with both of my favourite units in 40k having it, Sisters Repentia and Penitent Engines, I did however really like the Rage rule in the "Heretics Rulebook" (aka 6E leak).

Here is how that works:
Rage: You can move as you want but if you come within 12" of a VISIBLE unit you have to do a morale check at the start of the movement phase. If failed you must charge and assault the nearest visible unit. For every raging model lost in the unit the roll is modified by -1. Ignores the rule while broken, embarked or no enemy visible.


theDarkGeneral said:


> "If" Rage returns for World Eater units, it'll be governed by the old rule already mentioned, where each unit simply takes a Ld test at the beginning of the turn. Failure means you move towards and assault if possible the closest visible enemy unit (that can be assaulted).
> 
> Chain Axe talk has come up again...i believe they had two ideas of revamping them...first was giving them rending, the second was +1 strength. Time will tell if either made it into the new Codex.
> 
> Speaking of the Codex, I know I always refer to it as Chaos Legions Codex, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's correct. It's just what i've come to refer it to, as it was originally a project that was to be 3 separate Codexes (i know codices is grammatically correct, but I don't care) that were to delve deeper into the the original Traitor Legions and many of their off shoots.
> 
> Balance of power? Well...there well be plenty of power, however unless you're playing Apocalypse games, most units can't move from Elite to Troop or Fast, etc. Imagine an Iron Warriors player (bringing a Warsmith HQ) that can take Havocs as either Heavy OR Elite OR both???? I'm not sure on this, but it was mentioned to me.
> 
> Alpha Legion, well...as i've mentioned over a month back, will more then likely have lots of Infiltrating abilities that pass on to transports. Scouting Land Raiders full of meta-gamed Chosen????!!!! LOL!
> 
> I do really hope I can get more info on the possible NEW Predator upgrades!!! I hope I'm not being yanked by my boyz on this!!!


----------



## Words_of_Truth

World Eaters should get those big rollers orks tend to put on the front of their vehicles, would just look awesome imo.


----------



## yostu

DeathKlokk said:


> Yes, it's totally obvious. Since FW has never had a model progress to plastic and be included in a codex.
> 
> Well, except for Valkyries... and Piranhas...and Venerable Dreads... and Manticores...and etc.
> 
> I jsut cannot wait until I can field my Chaos again without feeling like GKs or SWs are so OP. As with the IG book, it will be sweet to hear the cries of "Cheeese!!!" for my Chaos. :biggrin:


I mean that this one is a NEW thing.. If it will come out from GW surely it wont be out so near.. That's all, in my opinion..


----------



## MadCowCrazy

theDarkGeneral said:


> I do love all the enthusiasm that old and new Chaos players have towards our hopefully soon release! Dreadnoughts become useful again is a huge hit with me! (i have 18)
> 
> As far as trying to figure out what really is coming out, I did have a thought...i know my buddies mentioned seeing new bikers, but I was a bit "hopeful" that something I mentioned to Phil a couple years ago may come to fruit...Attack Bikers for Chaos, with Reaper Auto-cannons!!! It'd be fluffy in the sense that it's keeping with our themed weaponry as well as makes sense for us to have something "Imperial" yet not quite...heavy bolters or upgraded to Reaper Auto-cannons!
> 
> Emperor's Children: My much hated and loathed rivals! LOL! Well...don't rely to heavily on Lash of Submission, as it really comes in line with the current version in the Daemons Codex, which includes only being able to affect a unit once per turn. (FINALLY!) If they kept the vehicle Legion specific upgrades in, then you'll have some cool Dreads and Predators, and "possibly" a new heavier sonic weapon than has a chance to crack Land Raiders. Maybe Rending? Not sure.
> 
> I'm soooooo very much looking forward to some new models! Forge World has kept me quite happy (both in Fantasy and 40K), but it'd be nice to have a bunch of new plastic models to chop up and convert and paint and send to war!
> 
> IF what i've been told is the 100% truth, we could see Chosen with Jump Packs (expensive), Possessed with Wings (kinda expensive), Chaos Assault Marines (average), and Raptors!!! Speed kills...
> 
> AND, on the subject of Chaos Assault Marines...IF the Cult Marines gain access to Jump Pack upgrades (moving their slot), how cool and useful and bad ass would that be?!??!??! Death Guard hopping forward to assault and "flame" up enemy squads? Berzerkers that can get their quickly, collecting skullz along the way? OH...and super psycher Thousand Sons within range of their new powers? If they keep AP3 bolters...ouch!
> 
> Ahhhhhh...really wish I knew more!


----------



## Dawnstar

> Scouting Land Raiders full of meta-gamed Chosen????!!!! LOL!


I could have so much fun with this idea :grin:


----------



## Achaylus72

I do like the idea of having multi codexes to cover just about everything

1, a generic codex to cover non-legion stuff
2, three codexes to cover the legions, and last but not least
3, a codex to cover renegades and the like.

Also previously mentioned, i actually want a flood of Chaos kits, it would be better to drown in a flood of new releases that to literally die of being drip fed over 5 years.

GW needs to get out as much stuff as quick as it can, then move onto the next army.

Why do folks automatically assume that Oblits will come out in Finecast, i have as yet read that this is not a given. I see absolutely no reason to why Oblits can't come out as a three Oblit plastic box set with plenty of parts to cusomise your Oblits, if they come out in Finecast you remove the option to customise your Oblits the way you want. My gut feeling is that they'll come out as plastic and in a 3 x boxed set for about $97.00 not bad really.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Ah I hope the planned changes to _Rage_ do not happen. I like my games of chase the Hornet I play with the local BA Death Company at my store.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Another small note by theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> Most of the game costing you randomness is gone, so we'll be able to once again control our Legions with a bloody iron gauntlet! Possessed will be much more dangerous, and as such a viable unit again. I believe a character model allows one or more units to be taken as a Troop.





theDarkGeneral said:


> Possessed could end up much like the Ogre Kingdoms Maneaters, which pick two different abilities from a decent lust, before the battle. I'd much prefer simply paying X pts a model for rending if I want it, or keep the models basic and thus cheaper points wise. This is a much better option for us, allowing fexibility.
> 
> I've not ignored the questions on Dread Claws, or super sonic speeders, truth is I doubt what i've been told. It's interesting to note that as with many Apocalypse pkastic kits, some were made for "big" things but never released do to 6 sprue count problem and market decline. I believe for Chaos we're really in for a treat ;-)
> 
> Some of the sketch work i've been privy to has me saving all my extra cash for the release!!! Someone recently asked me if I was more excited about the Codex or the new models...i'm a Mega-Apocalypse Event organizer and player, so new models get me pumped! The new Codex will be awesome and extend story lines, grant us new rules like improved Havoc Launckers, but there will always be those "sour grapes" complaining their Legion or unit or army design got screwed...ugh...these players aren't true followers of Chaos, and will get ridiculed heavily from me!


----------



## Sir Whittaker

If they give us plastic dreadclaws akin to those blind loyalist fools, I will consider the new codex a triumph.


----------



## LukeValantine

The dark general seems so exited that he is dropping spelling mistakes left and right, most be one hell of a codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> The dark general seems so exited that he is dropping spelling mistakes left and right, most be one hell of a codex.


Yupp, so awesome it makes people have spelling errors left right and center!


----------



## LukeValantine

Yah, but no one is citing me. Or at least I hope they aren't.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nothing new but interesting none the less


theDarkGeneral said:


> Well, The Dude has once again translated nicely what I was trying to say/imply. The Chaos Legions Codex will be full of "uber" power and cool rules and modifications to make current "things" more useful. Will we be Grey Knights? NO! Even mentioning that is an insult to our Dark Masters!
> 
> I feel if players want to compare us to other Astartes Codexes, they'll find reasons to be disappointed. We ARE NOT them, but a much more modified version, tainted, corrupted, full of hate and desire for power and millennium age old vengeance! Spiky, vicious, fierce, evil, dark, and cool as hell, that's how I'd describe our new models. As they should be!
> 
> Will Alpha Legion get as much attention and love as the World Eaters? Not from GW basic, but then, that's where Forge World comes in! Will Emperor's Children have Hell Knights? Or Silver Towers of Tzeentch for Thousand Sons? Not for a while...but if I were to mention (again) that a plastic kit for a fabled "gunship" and "jackal scout" where done a long time ago, and for GW reasons not released yet, would that excite you?
> 
> Well, as for the hopes of Drop Pods/Dread Claws and Hell Talons/Flyers, yeah yeah yeah, I was told we'll get some of those, but I find it hard to believe that GW would give us actual Drop Pods...Dread Claw variants, probably. I doubt Forge World would cry much over the low sales Dread Claw they offer, and probably either upgrade it's rules to be a lil' better/more expensive or just keep it on the back burner for all their other Chaos models being released. Don't expect "exact" Hell Talons, but very fast shoot you up with hvy auto-cannons, I was told yes.
> 
> Again, I personally have a lil' hard time believing the inclusion of these into our Legions, but it'd make sense and it'd be VERY welcomed! As for the whining about Grey Knights, the current Chaos Codex can actually defeat them (and Space Wolves), i've done it enough times, however such lists tend to be "rock paper scissor" against most other Armies.
> 
> HAHahhahaha...yeah, lil' slip on the "Fex" commentary. I do hope they go with a 2 shot version of the Havoc Launcher!


----------



## Vhalyar

Good, more things unique to Chaos and less copy/pasted SM toys with a few sharp sticks glued to them.

Any idea as to what the gunship and jackal scout might be? Since he seems to be talking about codex things, I'm guessing it's not the Thunderhawk. One of Tzneetch's flyers?


----------



## LukeValantine

Could the gunship be the blight drone, as that would be a nice add on.


----------



## Tzeen Qhayshek

Do we know how valid theDarkGeneral's sources are? I mean, I am stoked if these rumors are true, I just don't want to get my hopes up for nothing...


----------



## Necrosis

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Do we know how valid theDarkGeneral's sources are? I mean, I am stoked if these rumors are true, I just don't want to get my hopes up for nothing...


I think theDarkGeneral is doing an early April fools joke.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Necrosis said:


> I think theDarkGeneral is doing an early April fools joke.


I agree. Some of these rumours are preposterous and his own manner of speaking reeks of fanboyism to me.

Some of the stuff mentioned such as Jackal gunships sound more Necron like rather than Chaos.

Also the only units I suspect might even be brought over from FW would be the Dreadclaw and to a lesser extent the Hell Talon (Fighter not the bomber. Might have them mixed up name-wise). Apart from that I expect no more FW toys.

I would much rather than have the Chaos codex split into many which not only puts more problems on GW for lack of updating codexes but instead would prefer a system where the Chaos book is as thick as the current Marine dex if not a little bit more. Apart from that they need to keep the FOC relatively the same but perhaps introduce a "Combat Tactics" style system that changes with different legions. Similar to how the SC in the Marine codex affect players armies by promoting certain units or weapons above others.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Do we know how valid theDarkGeneral's sources are? I mean, I am stoked if these rumors are true, I just don't want to get my hopes up for nothing...


As posted on the front page: "Dont know how reliable theDarkGeneral is but this rumour is interesting none the less, updating info to reflect it"


I dont recognize his name as any reliable rumours monger I've heard of before. He is however one of the few people posting rumours at the moment, all we can do is wait and see.

If he is wrong he will forever be discredited and known as a liar, if he is right he will be heralded as a living saint and whatever he says will become fact!
That's just how the news and rumours "industry" goes...


----------



## mcmuffin

If i remember correctly he was letting out trickles of rumours about Necrons for a little while and he also was one of the ones who mentioned the nid/SW second wave.


----------



## Judas Masias

I don't know if this info has been posted yet if it has just trash it. 
Credit goes to tireless The Dude and TheDarkGeneral

Yet more of that drip, drip, drip we all love. Here's the latest on your favorite Warhammer 40,000 traitors.



via the tireless The Dude and TheDarkGeneral (That's just like your opinion man!)

The book should allow players to field Legion-specific armies that have a uniqueness similar to older Dex's whilst simultaneously allowing flexible mixed force builds.

HQ selections may change:
- what units "count as" (possibly FOC slots, or scoring status) 
- wargear upgrades for squads and vehicles
- access to Daemons-Yes Please:yahoo:
- unit sizes (maybe)

Many more flying options in this book such as:
- Chosen with Jump Packs (expensive)
- Possessed with Wings (kinda expensive)
- Chaos Assault Marines (average)
- Raptors

Cult troops could possibly get access to Jump Packs changing their FOC slot (maybe) but most most units are unable to move FOC slots.

Chosen and Possessed could get the most significant overhaul in the codex. HQ characters may be able to take a unit of Chosen as a squad upgrade, thereby not taking up an Elites slot.

Possessed will lose their current "game costing randomness". Example given was Ogre Kingdoms Maneaters, who pick abilities from a list before the game. A particular character may allow one or more units of Possessed to be taken as Troops.

Berserkers Rage rule to return to a Ld test, suffering the Rage USR on a failure. He also said that 2 ideas for Chain Axes have been suggested: Rending, or +1S.

Alpha Legion may be able to grant Infiltration to their transports.

Lash of Submission nerfed to be inline with the version in Codex Chaos Daemons.

Sonic weapon options were tested for Dreadnoughts and Predators - including some heavier new sonic tankbusters.

Apocalypse sized releases for Chaos in the near future , an Autocannon-toting flyer was mentioned.

Finally word of the Havoc Launcher upgraded to two shots.


----------



## Adramalech

I have faith in the dark gods, fickle though they may be, that there -is- a new book on the way!


----------



## Marius_Ruberu

I wish they would just come out with a Night Lords box set instead of the extra bits. I love the army and the back ground, but I don’t want to pay 50 or so bucks on one squad of SM. I like the plastic night lord only Raptors, hope they give them wings on their helmets. It might make them worth starting finally over 10 years of thinking about it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

And yet another post from theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> A lil' additional note: another member asked if I could comment on Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs...
> 
> Well from what I've gathered from everything i'm being told (and again i'm sure some of it is incorrect) there's not a lot of focus or attention on newer Chaos Space Marine chapters. The focus is mostly on the original 9 Traitor Legions and some of their direct splits.
> 
> This doesn't mean that some of these Characters like Huron won't appear, I really don't know. It does seem however that GW main is letting Forge World handle more of the 'successor' chapters and Traitor Guard options.
> 
> I can see GQ main eventually making another Lost and the Damned style codex, but perhaps not for at least another year. They still have Daemons (both 40K & Fantasy) and Warriors of Chaos scheduled tentatively for sometime next year, might be a lot of extra Chaos going around that could flood the market and not sell as well. I'd like to think they would, but GW main often makes decisions that I say "huh???" to.
> 
> Personally I'm still focused on the fact that Chosen FINALLY get some models, and lotz o' cool upgrade options! With the mention to me of Bikers a few times, i could easily fathom Chosen having the following upgrades: Jump Packs, Bikes, Dread Claw/Rhino/Land Raider Daemonicus, etc.
> 
> I have also been pondering a lot about the Possessed and their possible upgrade traits. Rending and Fleet would of course be sensible and nostalgic, but Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Wings, Power Weapons, Preferred Enemy and Stealth come to mind. If it is only 2 upgrades max, and those are our options what would players lean towards? Maybe a 16 man squad of Possessed w/Wings and Rending? Or perhaps Preferred Enemy w/Furious Charge?
> 
> OH YEAH!!! I do believe we get a form of Preferred Enemy, but i'm not sure exactly which units...i assume it'd be Cult units like Thousand Sons, Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Raptors and Cult Terminators???


----------



## gridge

Marius_Ruberu said:


> I wish they would just come out with a Night Lords box set instead of the extra bits. I love the army and the back ground, but I don’t want to pay 50 or so bucks on one squad of SM. I like the plastic night lord only Raptors, hope they give them wings on their helmets. It might make them worth starting finally over 10 years of thinking about it.


I'm a fan of the Night Lords (mainly due to A.D.B's books) but I can't say that I'm a fan of those helmets. They always struck me as cheesy looking. But to each their own. I am, however, definitely hoping to see more in the way of Nurgle's glorious forces. I have some of the old plague marines now, as well as a greater demon and plague demons but I will gladly throw a handful or two of cash at GW if they give me more Death Guard and Nurgle marked miniatures.


----------



## Dawnstar

MadCowCrazy said:


> And yet another post from theDarkGeneral
> 
> 
> TheDarkGeneral said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rending and Fleet..., Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Wings, Power Weapons, Preferred Enemy and Stealth come to mind. If it is only 2 upgrades max, and those are our options what would players lean towards?
Click to expand...

If those wind up being the hypothetical choices for the supposed Possessed abilities, I'm taking at least 15 with Wings and Power Weapons :grin:


----------



## oiad

Can imagine it'll be quite the expense though.


----------



## Dawnstar

oiad said:


> Can imagine it'll be quite the expense though.


Totally worth it though :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

oiad said:


> Can imagine it'll be quite the expense though.





Dawnstar said:


> Totally worth it though :grin:


Kinda like Death Company with jump packs and thunder hammers 
Then again they have Rage if I'm not mistaken which fucks them over, but hopefully the Rage rule wont be as bad in 6E.


Another small note from theDarkGeneral, I hope this isn't true as I'd love to have daemonettes or plague bearers instead of generic daemon 1,2,3...


> Daemon Princes are currently the only Marked Daemons...


Some Chaos flier rumours


StraightSilver said:


> There apparently will be a new Marine Flyer, similar size but different load out to the Storm Raven.
> 
> Chaos should get a Locust equivalent, and if Tau do come out next year they should also get something.
> 
> I hadn't heard about an Ork flyer, but I really wouldn't be surprised, although if that was coming this year I am assuming it would have White Dwarf rules?
> 
> The Locust is a small, fast single seater Chaos Flyer which features heavily in the Sabbat World's Crusade, think of it like the Chaos equivalent of an Imperial Lightning.
> 
> The info about Tau I have is very old, so the flyer I thought they were getting is now very unlikely, but I would imagine it will be smething similar.
> 
> 
> I do believe this has been in the pipeline for a while though, it can't be a coincidence that all of the recent Codices (except Space Wolves) have had a flyer of some sort in them.
> 
> IG: Valkyrie / Vendetta
> Tyranids: Harpy
> Dark Eldar; Razorwing / Void Raven
> GK: Storm Raven
> BA: Storm Raven
> Necrons: Night Scythe
> 
> And there has to be a reason the Hydra has been held back, as it is one of the best things in the IG Codex (admittedly that doesn't mean much I know) and shoud be a simple kit to produce.
> 
> I also had it from a good source (not one of my usual sources, and not as directly involved, but a good source none the less) that there is a big change coming to the hobby regarding flyers.
> 
> I don't honestly know if that means rules in the core rule book, or a supplement, but they will apparently be getting a lot of attention.
> 
> For everyone hoping for a Thunderbolt, Barracuda, Remora etc though I think that's very doubtful as Forge World produce them and the guys I've spoken to at GW are quite adamant that it isn't in their interests to tread on their toes



Small oddity from Black Library, is this a joke or is Aaron Dembski-Bowden writing the fluff/rules/everything in the Chaos Legions book? reflection that he might be reading the old CSM codex to find inspiration for future books? I for one would welcome new writers for the rulebooks as the quality GWs writers put out is abysmal, most new books can be broken in 5min of reading it! Where is the fucking quality control? Bah, lets hope Aaron has some part in the making of the book, he can't make it worse than GW would inevitably do can he?
Source


Andy Smillie said:


> For the Fallen made me angry, mainly because it ended. It has all the sharp, uncluttered description, well rendered characters and thoughtful use of language we’ve come to expect from Mr Dembski-Bowden. A touching piece about brotherhood and the mortality of the Emperor’s finest.
> Aaron, I know you’re reading this, put down Codex: Chaos Space Marines and go write some more Crimson Fists. Like, now.’ - Andy Smillie





theDarkGeneral said:


> Just a name I threw out there, because if the daemon spirits within. I haven't heard anything further on Legion specific rules. Daemons definitely aren't a focus, but daemonic possession is...might even be an HQ upgrade...
> 
> With 6th Edition changing the way deepstrike and reserves work, it'll be worth waiting on another Daemons codex.
> 
> I doubt Chosen will get access to Terminator Armor, with the return of Cult Terminators, and to keep different from regular Astartes. But I could be wrong on this.
> 
> Daemon Prince options are more similar to the Daemon Codex, even jokingly mentioning would it be cool if a daemon prince could carry a gun?





theDarkGeneral said:


> I believe there are two different types of Terminators.
> 
> As for the leaked 6th edition rules, they're a fabrication, most of it is false. There are a few things correct.


----------



## CPT Killjoy

Why isn't it May yet....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

CPT Killjoy said:


> Why isn't it May yet....


Agree, I wanna play Diablo 3!!!


----------



## Black Legionare

Got about a month and a half, bud. Hang in there.


----------



## LukeValantine

These romours are getting so nebulous that some are starting to contradict each other. Daemons not playing a role but possession will, compared to daemon will be coming back to the codex? At this point I think I will stop trying to get my hopes up about everything and wait to get exited when the book comes out. Since so far we have established that pretty much anything anyone has ever wanted from the book may or may not be in it. Kinda the trend we have been seeing since GW cracked down on reliable leaks.


----------



## Vhalyar

So, funny thing, all the usual rumor-posters are hanging out in the Autumn of Flyers thread at Warseer.

Stickmonkey added the following:



Stickmonkey said:


> I also really like the Chaos flyer design. Was expecting something like the hell blade, and I am suitably impressed with the design. :evilgrin:
> 
> BTW, anyone fancy a plastic Chaos drop pod? :angel:


Plastic dreadclaws, woo! And the ship would be the locust, if that partiocular rumor is correct.


----------



## Dawnstar

Stickmonkey said:


> BTW, anyone fancy a plastic Chaos drop pod?


----------



## Vhalyar

Though I guess don't expext them any time soon 



Stickmonkey said:


> Dont get too excited...I'm not saying you are going to see these things any time soon...


----------



## Dawnstar

Vhalyar said:


> Though I guess don't expext them any time soon


I can always hope!


----------



## LukeValantine

Hope is for the weak!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Another small bit from theDarkGeneral


theDarkGeneral said:


> The Daemon Prince will come in line more the way of the current Codex: Daemon version, however with a more Chaos Space Marine feel. It is possible the even Daemon Princes may gain benefits to being Legion specific. Perhaps an Iron Warriors Daemon Prince could grant more access to Heavy Support units or carry a heavy weapon himself! Maybe a World Eater Daemon Prince has Furious Charge...and Stealth for Night Lords?
> 
> With GW being much more secretive about releases, it's of course going to be harder for many of us to hear things, especially things we WANT to hear.


----------



## LukeValantine

If wings go up to 60pts in cost I don't imagine we will see many princes in armies, regardless of what other bells and whistles they attach to them. Nothing like a 200+ pt model that still drops to DE ranged fire or autocannons.


----------



## whiplash308

Maybe our new DP will go the way of the Hive Tyrant. Expensive ass wings, but comes with various upgrades, such as a 2+ armor, or other shit such as a Hive Commander kind of upgrade. I would indeed cry if DP wings go up to 60 points. I'd pay 40, at MOST. We need Daemon Princes to be at least super awesome fighters, regardless of their mark. A good example is this: A Daemon Prince is good against a Carnifex (albeit that Carnifex doesn't die by the DP or the DP fails one invulnerable save too few), but gets chomped by a Hive Tyrant. A Daemon Prince needs more diversity and way more options. I thought no Daemon Prince was supposed to be the same? I don't remember every Daemon Prince being a Slaanesh Prince with Lash of Submission.


----------



## Adramalech

does the empire count as the april release, even if it was technically released at the end of march? :s because if it does count as the april release, that could mean that chaos is coming at the end of april rather than the middle of may, right?

or am I just daydreaming?

EDIT: NEVERMIND. my brain got a little skewered with excitement there. I should have asked; If the empire was put on advance order at the end of march does that mean we might see chaos on advance order at the end of april?


----------



## Vhalyar

I saw that post from theDarkGeneral, but to be honest after the first sentence it seems like he goes into wishlisting.


----------



## Adramalech

whiplash308 said:


> Maybe our new DP will go the way of the Hive Tyrant. Expensive ass wings, but comes with various upgrades, such as a 2+ armor, or other shit such as a Hive Commander kind of upgrade. I would indeed cry if DP wings go up to 60 points. I'd pay 40, at MOST. We need Daemon Princes to be at least super awesome fighters, regardless of their mark. A good example is this: A Daemon Prince is good against a Carnifex (albeit that Carnifex doesn't die by the DP or the DP fails one invulnerable save too few), but gets chomped by a Hive Tyrant. A Daemon Prince needs more diversity and way more options. I thought no Daemon Prince was supposed to be the same? I don't remember every Daemon Prince being a Slaanesh Prince with Lash of Submission.


Anything going the way of any unit in the nids codex is a BAD THING. :| especially my beautiful sexy DP


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> I saw that post from theDarkGeneral, but to be honest after the first sentence it seems like he goes into wishlisting.


Allot of his stuff seems to be semi wishlisting, then again he is pretty much the only person posting Chaos rumours regularly. Without him there would be almost nothing to this thread.

GWs rumours lockdown sucks balls, but another rumour says it's because of the Hobbit movie thing, they have to prove they can keep secrets or something.


----------



## SoulGazer

What Hobbit secrets could possibly be that important? The book's been out for 75 years! I say it's just GW being evil. Those.... evil non-rumor-spreading people...


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Anything long ranged and anti tank possibly in the pipeline for my World Eaters? I don't fancy going with Obliterators and it may cost me a fair bit to convert a small havoc squad.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Words_of_Truth said:


> Anything long ranged and anti tank possibly in the pipeline for my World Eaters? I don't fancy going with Obliterators and it may cost me a fair bit to convert a small havoc squad.


I think it's too soon to make any assumptions, what you are saying is kinda like when people ask you to rate their build from rumoured rules of a new codex.
For all we know Chaos Spawn (undoubtedly the worst unit in the Chaos dex) could very well be the best unit in the new dex so it might be a good idea to pick up cheap models from ebay as they suck so bad now and people generally dont want them. Then again they could stay the worst unit in the new dex and all that money you just spent on them has gone to waste.

Random Rant



I love the Inquisition and was really looking forwards to the GK dex as I love the crazy freak show of fucked up servitors, daemonhosts, arco etc. My favourite unit in the old dex was the Daemonhost, such a random unit that could be awesome or just pure shit. When I saw the new rules for them I died a bit inside, I loved the concept but the new rules for the are completely shit.
I'm not even sure what the hell they were trying to do with the model, most of it's powers a close combat based yet it only comes with 1A base and just plain sucks in CC. With the old D6 attacks I would have called it randomly fun to use but for what you get you are better of buying a arco or death cult.



My point is, it's too soon to think about converting havocs etc. I'm not sure if the current Havoc box is metal or not, never seen anyone field them, but if they are metal they might get a new box with new weapons and upgrades.

It's just 1 month away if the rumours are correct, so start saving money for all the new kits and dont think about it too much.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I was more thinking in terms of anything new that's not been in the codex before etc, not planning on buying anything just wondering whether there's anything rumoured that may be of interest within this category.


----------



## bobahoff

Certainly hoping for some better looking berzerker models the old ones are pretty spectacularly naff looking compared to the newer models like GK and BA death company


----------



## MidnightSun

I don't really know what to think. It looks like shit, piled upon shit, with theDarkGeneral sat atop it on a throne of shit pouring shit on it.

It could go the way of Dark Eldar, in which all the old units were still fine - if you took Ravagers in the old 'dex, you'd not cripple yourself by taking Ravagers in the new 'dex. Warriors weren't nerfed horribly. Wych Cults are still about as viable as they were. The overall feel of the army didn't change at all.

Alternatively, it could pull a Grey Knights. Less badass space exorcists with halberds, and vastly, ridiculously outnumbered by even Space Marines, more over-the-top Space Marines with better gear and some magic shizz going on. True, they got more units and became a lot more playable, but lost the coolness factor that made me want to play them in the first place (not least of which were the inferior miniatures for PAGK).

Midnight


----------



## Vhalyar

MidnightSun said:


> I don't really know what to think. It looks like shit, piled upon shit, with theDarkGeneral sat atop it on a throne of shit pouring shit on it.


I... what? What? I don't really see anything in the rumors that would cause anyone to declare them to be a mountain of shit. That's just so ridiculous.


----------



## LukeValantine

I think he is just express his pessimistic view towards the legitimacy of any of the rumor claims dark general has presented.


----------



## cottomkid

Does anyone know if there are going to be elites, or fast attack allowed to be taken as troops by way of a named HQ? Such as in Dark Eldar?

Because I'm wanting to play either Emperor's Children or Death Guard based on this fact.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

cottomkid said:


> Does anyone know if there are going to be elites, or fast attack allowed to be taken as troops by way of a named HQ? Such as in Dark Eldar?
> 
> Because I'm wanting to play either Emperor's Children or Death Guard based on this fact.


I try my best to collect every rumour I find out there that isn't completely wishlisting or from someones homebrew, I might not find 100% of all rumours but if it isn't on the front page of this thread you can be fairly certain no one knows at the moment.

I can't remember the answer to this question but I think there has been some rumours about being allowed to take more than a certain FOC slot restriction, like 4 Heavy Support choices etc. If there are none troops being made troops by a HQ I dont remember atm but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. Then again GW seems to be moving away from that kind of thing, perhaps if the rumoured % based armies instead of the current FOC and that more than just Troops can be scoring then there wouldn't be much need for FOC slot changing HQs just to get "scoring" units. It would basically only allow you to take more of a certain type so as to create a fluffier army of your choice.


----------



## TechPr1est

shocked that they didnt do the space marines codex first


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TechPr1est said:


> shocked that they didnt do the space marines codex first


It's funny/ironic cause it's true :crazy:


----------



## MidnightSun

Vhalyar said:


> I... what? What? I don't really see anything in the rumors that would cause anyone to declare them to be a mountain of shit. That's just so ridiculous.


-Not allowed Terminators unless I dedicate my Word Bearers (known for their dedication to the path of Chaos Undivided)
-Daemons arrive first turn (because THAT works out well for Daemons)
-Dark Apostles seperate to Chaplains, which is just PLAIN WRONG. There are no Chaos Chaplains, that's the very definition of a Dark Apostle. Oh, and a blatant 'Dur hur, Royal Courts and Wolf Guard were cool so we'll do the same for these guys'.
-Restricted Heavy Support

All combines to be bad news for Word Bearers. Why do I not get any Terminators? Why do I get fewer Obliterators?

All of the more recent codices have been moving away from the old, crappy 0-1 units, and more towards freedom of choice. Having this freedom taken away and being FORCED to play Daemon Bomb (as indicated in the new rumours) will definitely make me go to my backup choices of Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.

Midnight

EDIT: Apologies, no, I do get Terminators. But not 'Chaos Terminators', I have to get Chosen and then equip them with TDA as appropriate. *Not* a Space Wolf knock-off, not at all.


----------



## kaboot

MidnightSun said:


> -Not allowed Terminators unless I dedicate my Word Bearers (known for their dedication to the path of Chaos Undivided)
> -Daemons arrive first turn (because THAT works out well for Daemons)
> -Dark Apostles seperate to Chaplains, which is just PLAIN WRONG. There are no Chaos Chaplains, that's the very definition of a Dark Apostle. Oh, and a blatant 'Dur hur, Royal Courts and Wolf Guard were cool so we'll do the same for these guys'.
> -Restricted Heavy Support
> 
> All combines to be bad news for Word Bearers. Why do I not get any Terminators? Why do I get fewer Obliterators?
> 
> All of the more recent codices have been moving away from the old, crappy 0-1 units, and more towards freedom of choice. Having this freedom taken away and being FORCED to play Daemon Bomb (as indicated in the new rumours) will definitely make me go to my backup choices of Grey Knights or Imperial Guard.
> 
> Midnight
> 
> EDIT: Apologies, no, I do get Terminators. But not 'Chaos Terminators', I have to get Chosen and then equip them with TDA as appropriate. *Not* a Space Wolf knock-off, not at all.


If all comes to worse, you can paint/keep your army with the scheme of the Word Bearers, but use them as another legion? a "counts as"?


----------



## LukeValantine

Death to all who advocate the dreaded "counts as"!


----------



## SoulGazer

I planned on taking Daemon Engines anyways for my Word Bearers, and if these FOC rumors are correct, I won't have to change up my 3 Defiler build very much. :so_happy:

And a character that makes possessed marines troops? Yes please!


----------



## clever handle

LukeValantine said:


> Death to all who advocate the dreaded "counts as"!


as long as the army was developed with the codex in mind it's not bad. I.E. ASM BA for night lords; Codex space marines for Iron Warriors; Space wolves as Word Bearers (it works - seriously... TWC / FW = daemons, _wulfen_ = possessed...)

But if I take my slaaneshi warband, painted pink & armed with sonic weaponry & start playing them as Grey Knights because they're new and awesome that is wrong... but hey, still works... the guys with sonic blasters just have bolters c/w psybolt ammo & blastmasters are psycannons right? right guys? ... guys?


----------



## Adramalech

LukeValantine said:


> Death to all who advocate the dreaded "counts as"!


I wouldn't say "death to them," but I certainly don't like what they might make people think about chaos players. "oh. they don't want a codex because they substitute loyalist codices, let's release moar loyalist codices!"


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some more stuff from theDarkGeneral and Stickmonkey


theDarkGeneral said:


> there may not be much focus on newer Chaos Space Marine chapters, keeping things squarely on the original 9 Traitor Legions and their splinter factions. This means it's likely there won't be much or any love for Huron.
> 
> Chaos may get a form of Preferred Enemy, but was unsure which units.
> 
> On Daemons, Daemon Princes could wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures. What this means is unclear. Could be he means there are no God-specicif Daemons, or that they are there, just that they don't use "Marks".
> 
> Whilst on the subject of Daemon Princes, they will move more in line with the ones in the Daemon Codex but "with a more Chaos Space Marine feel", gong on to say they may gain specific benefits for different Legions.
> 
> Terminators were a big topic, Chosen may not have access to Terminator Armour (contradicting his previous rumour), but that Cult Terminators would return in some form. He went on to say he believed there would only be two Terminator units, claiming one was some sort of "generic cult" unit that was given special rules according to the Legion being played. He made sure to reinforce that this was an early playtest, so things could have changed.





Stickmonkey said:


> a plastic Chaos drop pod could be in the works, but tempered that by saying we probably wouldn't see it any time soon. Whether the kit is released soon or not, there could be a chance of the rules appearing in the Codex though.


----------



## Black Legionare

Drop Pod? Ohh I like that.


----------



## slaaneshy

Drop pods are well over due - but why a new kit? Does not make sense to design anything new, just whack in a chaos sprue in the existing product. Of course if there is any significant wait on the 'new' kit, people will just buy the loyalist one and tart it up with a sprue anyway.


It seems to me that putting in specific units for 9 different legions is well above the usual scope of a typical GW codex and simply won't happen. It seems likely that the HQ chioce or legion you pick will have generic rules that will apply to your force and give it the legion flavour, at least thats how I view it.


----------



## Lord Azune

Slaneshy, they'd have to redo the cover art and increase the price if they include an extra sprue... honestly its almost easier to make a whole new product.


----------



## Dawnstar

Lord Azune said:


> Slaneshy, they'd have to redo the cover art and increase the price if they include an extra sprue... honestly its almost easier to make a whole new product.


Not really. The Space Marine Rhino and the Chaos Marine Rhino are almost the exact same thing, except for the accessory sprue, and they're the same price


----------



## stuff

I think it would make a lot of sense to just add a sprue to the already existing drop-pod, but if that was what they were doing, I doubt there would be a long wait for it as was suggested. I think whatever they come up with may just be an equivalent to a drop pod, not an actual drop pod maybe.. 

Seriously looking forward to this codex! Can't wait to see what GW come up with. As long as it allows for more interesting fluffy armies, I'm happy!


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Lord Azune said:


> Slaneshy, they'd have to redo the cover art and increase the price if they include an extra sprue... honestly its almost easier to make a whole new product.


Not really. The SM Rhino and Razorback are exactly the same kits except the razorback gets some guns. Yet they are still the same price. And as Dawnstar ointed out, he same can be said about the SM and CSM rhino kits.


----------



## slaaneshy

Lord Azune said:


> Slaneshy, they'd have to redo the cover art and increase the price if they include an extra sprue... honestly its almost easier to make a whole new product.


A new box and an existing sprue vs months of design and development, prototypes and moulds, then mass production....and then the box and sprue on top that would of done the job anyway....

You must work for GW with that logic!


----------



## SilverTabby

Here's a thought. Instead of drop pods, maybe they'll get something akin to the DE webway portal, that allows them to come into play via a warp rift? Would be more fluffy than just another marine-ripoff vehicle...


----------



## slaaneshy

SilverTabby said:


> Here's a thought. Instead of drop pods, maybe they'll get something akin to the DE webway portal, that allows them to come into play via a warp rift? Would be more fluffy than just another marine-ripoff vehicle...


I've never viewed the drop pod as a 'marine rip off' - they had them before the heresy, along with speeders and other 'marine' vehicles...it seems that the game designers have simply forgotten this fact!
However your warp portal idea is quite good, i like it! Perhaps a sort of improved deep strike ability representing this?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Seems to me that Chaos should get every the marines had during the heresy at the very least, this includes drop pods, so it's not really a rip off, it's what chaos is, traitor marines.


----------



## SilverTabby

slaaneshy said:


> I've never viewed the drop pod as a 'marine rip off' - they had them before the heresy, along with speeders and other 'marine' vehicles...it seems that the game designers have simply forgotten this fact!
> However your warp portal idea is quite good, i like it! Perhaps a sort of improved deep strike ability representing this?


Chaos marines having all the same gear as marines? No point in a new codex, just use the marine one and add spikes. 

Chaos marines don't have access to the adeptus mechanicus or up-to-date repair facilities. Of course they won't *still* have all the vehicles marines do. 

I recently played against a DE player who dropped a dohicky in the middle of the table, and next turn his army started pouring out of it. Something like that would be a simple convert for chaos, and represent using warp rifts or whatever. Much better than a simple marine copy'n'paste. Or alternatively, a daemon prince character who gives a unit the ability to come in like summoned daemons do (far superior to deepstriking)...


----------



## CPT Killjoy

I just thought I'd put this out there. For something that is supposed to be coming out so soon, it seems to me that the DarkGeneral has a few to many words like "play test" and "probably, but could change"


----------



## bitsandkits

CPT Killjoy said:


> I just thought I'd put this out there. For something that is supposed to be coming out so soon, it seems to me that the DarkGeneral has a few to many words like "play test" and "probably, but could change"


well thats whats called "the save ass", personally i think most of the rumour gurus are just picking stuff out of thin air and calling it gospel. 

Chaos deserves some unique cool stuff, so rather than giving them access to boring ass marine vehicles, they should get cool chaos stuff like more deamon engines and stuff undreamed of by mortals like us forum dwellers.


----------



## slaaneshy

SilverTabby said:


> Chaos marines don't have access to the adeptus mechanicus or up-to-date repair facilities. Of course they won't *still* have all the vehicles marines do.


Apart from half the mechanicus turning traitor and setting up forgeworlds in the eye of terror, i'd agree. While I don't want the chaos marines to simply be spikey marines, they are essentially traitor marines - so there is justification (perhaps even a demand) for similar kits to an extent, but with a corrupted feel.
Anyhow, all of this is wish listing and personal preference....still waiting on some proper rumours...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

What month does GW raise their prices in? Would it be worth buying some CSM now or wait for the new expensive stuff?
Personally I dont care as I rarely buy new (and if I do it's from ebay or a discount seller) but I'm sure future chaos players would be interested.

I guess another 20-30% price increase is to be expected...

Hmm, does that mean GW will have increase their prices by about 60% over a 3 year period on most kits?


----------



## Maverike Prime

MadCowCrazy said:


> What month does GW raise their prices in? Would it be worth buying some CSM now or wait for the new expensive stuff?
> Personally I dont care as I rarely buy new (and if I do it's from ebay or a discount seller) but I'm sure future chaos players would be interested.
> 
> I guess another 20-30% price increase is to be expected...
> 
> Hmm, does that mean GW will have increase their prices by about 60% over a 3 year period on most kits?


good lord where do people get those numbers from? GW does a 12-15% increase to their product once a year. The "hey lets shoot our selves in the foot public by saying we're releasing models in a cheaper material but are raising our prices at the same time" fubar with Finecast was the largest I can recall at 15%.


----------



## SilverTabby

@B&K: the books done and dusted by now. It's only now you'll start getting solid rumours as the finished book leaves the security of the Studio. And that *really* pisses off the poor writers, who can't do grand reveals of their hard work, as everyone will know all the surprises already. It's both demoralising and spirit crushing.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maverike Prime said:


> good lord where do people get those numbers from? GW does a 12-15% increase to their product once a year. The "hey lets shoot our selves in the foot public by saying we're releasing models in a cheaper material but are raising our prices at the same time" fubar with Finecast was the largest I can recall at 15%.


If I'm not mistaken the highest price increase last year was 24% on a single item, can't remember exactly what it was but I think it was a book or something. I know I didn't care as it wasn't something I'd buy anyways.


----------



## Maverike Prime

MadCowCrazy said:


> If I'm not mistaken the highest price increase last year was 24% on a single item, can't remember exactly what it was but I think it was a book or something. I know I didn't care as it wasn't something I'd buy anyways.


Okay I had totally missed that one. Course then again I haven't bought that much from GW in the last couple years so that's not saying much.


----------



## MidnightSun

I thought that the situation was that the Australians had price increases that really were in the region of 40% in one year. That's if I remember it right.

I probably won't buy any special units until the new dex comes out - only Terminators, CSM/Chosen, and Rhinos.

Midnight


----------



## Judas Masias

Don't know if this info has been posted yet if it has just trash it. Full credit goes to theDarkGeneral and Stickmonkey.


Something wicked this way comes... Here the latest scuttlebutt doing the rounds on the Traitor Legions.



via theDarkGeneral


-The new codex is squarely focused on the original 9 Traitor Legions and their factions. More recent renegade chapters (like the Red Corsairs) may get the cold shoulder. 

-Chaos to get a form of Preferred Enemy on certain units.

-Daemon Princes may wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures - meaning either no god-specific daemons, or god-specific units but without the use of "Marks". 

-Daemon Princes moving in line with the ones in the Daemon Codex but "with a more Chaos Space Marine feel", probably with specific benefits for different Legions. 

-Chosen may not have access to Terminator Armour.

-Cult Terminators return in some form.

-Another "generic cult terminator" unit that gains special rules according to the Legion being played.

-Stickmonkey chimes in to say a plastic Chaos drop pod is in the codex, (Dreadclaw???) but not part of the initial release window.


----------



## whiplash308

Yeah that was posted on page 10 Judas, but a good refresher to those who haven't read it yet.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> @B&K: the books done and dusted by now. It's only now you'll start getting solid rumours as the finished book leaves the security of the Studio. And that *really* pisses off the poor writers, who can't do grand reveals of their hard work, as everyone will know all the surprises already. It's both demoralising and spirit crushing.


woot! SOLID INFO!

It almost makes me sad that the writers will be overshadowed by the rumormongers. -almost.-


----------



## Caliban

at a 12% price rise per year, prices would be ~40% more.yikes!


----------



## bobahoff

Adramalech said:


> woot! SOLID INFO!
> 
> It almost makes me sad that the writers will be overshadowed by the rumormongers. -almost.-


Don't care bout writers give me rumours!!!!!!!!!

RUMOURS!!!!!!!!!!:ireful2:


----------



## turel2

Any new rumours? Its seems very quiet at the moment.


----------



## bobahoff

As far as I'm concerned their aren't any rumours, I reckon at least 98% is made up and passed on as gen

I got this from a friend who heard it from his mate who drinks in the same pub as this bloke who works for fed-ex and did a delivery to matt wards brother's ex wifes sister who said.........

Their are far too many rumour threads that start like this


----------



## whiplash308

Out of the security of the studio? That sounds fun. Chaos, I can taste you! Come to meeeeeeeee.


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> woot! SOLID INFO!
> 
> It almost makes me sad that the writers will be overshadowed by the rumormongers. -almost.-


Hang on, what now? 

This was in responce to "it's coming in July", if so *then* it's done and gone by now. If it's an august release it'll have gone last month, if it's September then it's going now. White dwarf work is *finished* three months before release. 

Sorry if that came across as "mwahaha, I know stuff you don't".

Well, technically I do, but that's beside the point here.


----------



## MidnightSun

So, what can I safely buy on Thursday? Well, I guess more metal bawkses should be ok, as will generic Chaos Space Marines. But will Terminators be worth buying? Who knows, but Terminators are never a godawful unit - they range between 'viable' (Vanilla Terminators, Wolf Guard in TDA) and 'very good' (Paladins, Hammernators, the BT re-roll fest Sword Brethren), but I don't think any army has a really bad deal on Terminators. Probably shaky ground for buying Possessed, Dreads, SCs, Obliterators (which I reckon will get a knee-jerk reaction nerfing, but also a corresponding points decrease), and Cult troops. Daemons are also probably a safe bet, because I can always start a Daemons army if I can't take a Greater Daemon in Codex: CSM (although with the rumoured changes to Word Bearers, I'll be surprised if I can't).

I've never collected an army for long enough to go through a new Codex release, and the period in between Necrons and Chaos isn't a comfortable time (and I'll be annoyed if Dark Angels or Black Templars are next and not Chaos, we need the update godamnit!).

Midnight


----------



## Dawnstar

I would assume you would be pretty safe to buy the Rhino kits (Pred, Vindi, Rhino), as well as the Defiler, the standard CSM box, and whatever lesser/greater daemon kits take your fancy. Everything else though I would either expect either a new sculpt or the typical metal to finecast switch.

Terminators probably fall into the "likely to get one/several new kits (if the cult terminator rumor is true) but the current kit isn't too bad" category so it's really up to you whether you feel like waiting for the new kit or not


----------



## mcmuffin

I reckon possessed would be a solid buy, i suspect they will get a decent bump rules-wise.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> Hang on, what now?
> 
> This was in responce to "it's coming in July", if so *then* it's done and gone by now. If it's an august release it'll have gone last month, if it's September then it's going now. White dwarf work is *finished* three months before release.
> 
> Sorry if that came across as "mwahaha, I know stuff you don't".
> 
> Well, technically I do, but that's beside the point here.


Screw reality, I still want to revel in my dark joy at that "writers being overshadowed" comment.

or was it the "demoralising and spirit-crushing" comment B&K made? I can't tell anymore.


----------



## bitsandkits

i would say its safe to buy any kit that is currently 100% plastic, name the last plastic kit to be replaced by a new plastic kit in 40k, chaos has quite a number of unit that need to be moved to plastic let alone anything new and unseen.


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> Screw reality, I still want to revel in my dark joy at that "writers being overshadowed" comment.
> 
> or was it the "demoralising and spirit-crushing" comment B&K made? I can't tell anymore.


And people wonder why the writers give the impression of not liking the public. You actually like the idea of deliberately upsetting those who try to make your game fun?


----------



## boreas

Well, I'm pretty sure that if GW stopped the total blackout on rumors, they could get to a win-win point where players get a few tidbits here and there while the writer get to keep a big surprise... 

Phil


----------



## SilverTabby

The blackout happened because that 'balance' is non-existant, has never existed and you're kidding yourself if you think it can be reached. 

People out here want *everything*, and they want it *now*, screw the consequences. No-one here is ever happy with tidbits, never have been, never will be. 

Understandably, GW quite like the idea of keeping their creative staff happy, on top of retaining IP and stopping other companies jumping the gun on new models. The internet is responsible for the blackout, pure and simple. Stop accusing GW of being dicks when the real cause is those out here who can't wait for official releases.


----------



## jondoe297

Toys slightly out of pram, but I fully agree with your sentiment. 
Not to de-rail but have heard some rumblings that the DA dex is at the printers?
I call bull shit due to leaks from print shops esp. dexes would loose business pretty sharply?!


----------



## slaaneshy

No other gaming company seems to be unable to get the balance right, there is plenty of buzz about privateer press, Spartan games, mantic etc on there own sites, plenty of tid bits to keep the saliva going without all juicy details getting out...sorry, but gw could do a lot better...if only they tried or cared to!


----------



## SilverTabby

slaaneshy said:


> No other gaming company seems to be unable to get the balance right, there is plenty of buzz about privateer press, Spartan games, mantic etc on there own sites, plenty of tid bits to keep the saliva going without all juicy details getting out...sorry, but gw could do a lot better...if only they tried or cared to!


Compare the relative sizes of said companies, then think about how much easier it is for said companies.

Companies mentioned: size of a football pitch. 
GW: size of Scotland.

They have tried. For *years* they've tried. And been disappointed in the public every time.

Slightly more on topic: 
Any printer that leaks stuff would go out of business *very* quickly indeed. Gw is a huge contract they wouldn't want to lose over a leak.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> And people wonder why the writers give the impression of not liking the public. You actually like the idea of deliberately upsetting those who try to make your game fun?


I think you have a valid reason to be irritated. I'd be irritated, too, if I were a xenomorph designed by H.R. giger with a giant penis coming out of the back of my head.

But that's no reason to deny me my sudden schadenfreude by telling me that people don't like me for reasons that simply aren't true. -They don't- make my game fun. -I- make my game fun. Also, I don't like the idea of deliberately upsetting them. I simply take a small amount of perverse joy in knowing that hypothetical versions of those people could be upset in a way that does not profoundly affect them.


----------



## Adramalech

Dawnstar said:


> I would assume you would be pretty safe to buy the Rhino kits (Pred, Vindi, Rhino), as well as the Defiler, the standard CSM box, and whatever lesser/greater daemon kits take your fancy. Everything else though I would either expect either a new sculpt or the typical metal to finecast switch.
> 
> Terminators probably fall into the "likely to get one/several new kits (if the cult terminator rumor is true) but the current kit isn't too bad" category so it's really up to you whether you feel like waiting for the new kit or not


think it might be a good idea to hold off on a couple of the greater daemons, too. If the finecast release patterns I've noticed are a proper straw to grasp at, we might be seeing new sculpts of the greater daemons of nurgle and slaanesh. If not new sculpts, we'll at least see them in finecast, right?

(unless you prefer the current metal greater daemons anyway, then you should probably go on ahead and order them while you can)

or would GW only release finecast greater daemons for the daemons book (assuming daemons get a book this edition)?


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> I think you have a valid reason to be irritated. I'd be irritated, too, if I were a xenomorph designed by H.R. giger with a giant penis coming out of the back of my head.
> 
> But that's no reason to deny me my sudden schadenfreude by telling me that people don't like me for reasons that simply aren't true. -They don't- make my game fun. -I- make my game fun. Also, I don't like the idea of deliberately upsetting them. I simply take a small amount of perverse joy in knowing that they are upset in a way that does not profoundly affect them.


So the writing of the codex has nothing at all to do with having fun? Nothing at all? I'll be sure to pass on that Phil doesn't need to bother making his next book entertaining in any way, or have fun special rules and units, as you'll make it fun by yourself.

And the reason I get so irate on this subject is that being upset on this matter *does* profoundly affect them. For example:

The 'nid release before the last one was when the plastic carnifex kit came out. GW had done massive teasers with silhouettes and things in WD. The kit was set to be revealed at GD France, by Jez himself. He was really looking forward to it. Then, 2 days before, someone leaked pics of it online. I saw firsthand exactly how devastated he was (and furious), it wasn't pleasant.

I know Jez isn't a writer, but the same principle applies as they put in just as much work.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> So the writing of the codex has nothing at all to do with having fun? Nothing at all? I'll be sure to pass on that Phil doesn't need to bother making his next book entertaining in any way, or have fun special rules and units, as you'll make it fun by yourself.


-I- have to play a game for it to provide -me- with fun. Hence, -I- make -my- game fun.

as for everything else... meh, I have a dick sense of humor sometimes.

EDIT: and you might as well go through with your threat, since the book I'm interested in is (or was) already at the printers according to you. ;D


----------



## jondoe297

Slight paradox because if they didn't provide the rules you couldn't play the game therefore make it fun. 
Just a thought, other wise it would be a bunch of people standing round a table wiggling models at each other going pew pew . . . . wait, actually . . . . that is what I do. 
On topic if necron second wave is in May, then new dex June? Would they do back to back 40k releases?


----------



## Black Legionare

jondoe297 said:


> Slight paradox because if they didn't provide the rules you couldn't play the game therefore make it fun.
> Just a thought, other wise it would be a bunch of people standing round a table wiggling models at each other going pew pew . . . . wait, actually . . . . that is what I do.
> On topic if necron second wave is in May, then new dex June? Would they do back to back 40k releases?


In the year of 40k's anniversary they might? Idk, did they do anything like that for fantasy in it's anniversary year?


----------



## Adramalech

jondoe297 said:


> Slight paradox because if they didn't provide the rules you couldn't play the game therefore make it fun.
> Just a thought, other wise it would be a bunch of people standing round a table wiggling models at each other going pew pew . . . . wait, actually . . . . that is what I do.
> On topic if necron second wave is in May, then new dex June? Would they do back to back 40k releases?


take what I am about to tell you with a healthy amount of salt, as I am no expert, nor am I well-informed.

from what I've heard from secondhand sources on the internet, back-to-back 40k releases are improbable. GW does their best to keep things in a rotating schedule. If they do necrons second wave in may, and 40k 6th ed in june, then chaos -probably- won't come until august or even september.

please PM me if you want to discuss the "fun" topic further. I already feel bad about derailing this CSM topic as much as I have...


----------



## jondoe297

That's what I mean, it seems unrealistic that they will release Necron second wave, Chaos then the new rules . . . . . sad times! Although I was thought the consensus that July was more likely the release date for the new rules . . . . . ray of light?


----------



## Adramalech

jondoe297 said:


> That's what I mean, it seems unrealistic that they will release Necron second wave, Chaos then the new rules . . . . . sad times! Although I was thought the consensus that July was more likely the release date for the new rules . . . . . ray of light?


operating under the assumption that necrons second wave is confirmed. However, It's been 4 1/2 years. What's a few more months, right?


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## MadCowCrazy

How have they done new edition releases before? I got into 40k the same month that WD with the Terminator and Ork Nob was released, afaik that was at 5E launch or the launch of the starter set.

Either way, how has GW done new editions of 40k? New edition and nothing else for a month or two, or new edition and a new codex in the same month or back to back?


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## jondoe297

Adramalech said:


> operating under the assumption that necrons second wave is confirmed. However, It's been 4 1/2 years. What's a few more months, right?


Very true, apologies, if Necron's 2nd wave is next month.
4 and half years . . . that long? maybe the real dex got lost in the warp?


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## SilverTabby

In the past, 40k has been released and very swiftly followed by whatever codex needed the update. Usually Marines (as the top seller and 40%+ of all 40k sales) get a new dex fairly swiftly. When nids were in the new box, they got their codex almost immediately. 

There is *no* precedent for "they won't release a codex the same / following month". Main rulebook releases break the normal cycle.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> In the past, 40k has been released and very swiftly followed by whatever codex needed the update. Usually Marines (as the top seller and 40%+ of all 40k sales) get a new dex fairly swiftly. When nids were in the new box, they got their codex almost immediately.


This makes me wonder about the paint set with DA on it. I see Chaos played much more but while CSM are entirely playable DA feels playable as well minus some of the fun options...or anything unique. Including two armies in the starter that could both use new dexs would be sort of funny.


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## MadCowCrazy

Some bad rumours for Chaos just popped up, I guess time will tell just what we get. Never heard about drbored on the rumours mill before so not sure how accurate he is or has been in the past


drbored said:


> I got a rare opportunity to ply a wealth of information for some knowledge and insight about what's coming up next/soon.
> 
> Here's the rundown...
> 
> Dark Angels (May/June)
> 6th Edition (July/August)
> -Starter Box featuring Dark Angels vs. Eldar
> Eldar (Oct/Nov Xenos slot)
> 
> And somewhere in that mix is going to be a splash release of fliers that *should* include the Harpy, Voidraven Bomber, Doom/Night Scythe, and possibly more. When I mentioned 'Autumn of Fliers' I got a derisive snort, so we may see it sooner, we may see it later.
> 
> This confirms two things:
> 1. It's not going to be Dark Angels and Chaos for the Starter Box. GW is NOT going to put two power armor armies in the same box. Power armor is their bread and butter, and to put two power armor armies in one starter box doesn't follow any trends, going back to the Rogue Trader days. It *may* be Dark Angels vs. Tau, but my source suggested Eldar strongly for several reasons.
> -A. Eldar is a girl-getter. It's the one army that attracts more girls to the game than any other.
> -B. Eldar is currently the worst selling army.
> -C. Eldar has a massive loyal fanbase.
> Eldar are the logical step, and now they're the rumored next step in this coming Xenos season.
> 
> 2. Chaos is not going to be coming out this year, but may be slotted for early 2013. This is good and bad... bad because we don't get Chaos sooner. Good because it means Chaos will be a true 6th edition army, and not a 'made for' 6th edition army. This will put more time between the release of the rules and the finessing of the Codices, which means a better 6th edition Codex for Chaos. We could, of course, get a surprise, where they slam in a new Codex into the year, but that doesn't trend either. My source suggested, however, that we may see a lot of 'splash' releases packed in, with the aforementioned fliers being one.
> 
> As for my source, of course I can't reveal him. It'd be a plain disservice to his trust. What I can say is that he is a wealth of knowledge about all things GW, Forgeworld, and Black Library, and has many contacts therein (and I don't mean GW store managers. I mean Codex and BL authors, and GW and Forgeworld sculptors).
> 
> I would be very surprised if I was proved wrong by the passage of time and the developments therein, but such is the nature of the future. Take it or leave it, but I'm confident that you shouldn't have to take too much salt with this.


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## SilverTabby

Early 2013 release means writing would have started in about Feb, and be due to finish sometime early - mid summer. Painting would be done by 2 months later, WD articles finished 3 months before release, which would be by Christmas for a spring release. 

Which I *know* is an incorrect timeline. 

My money is on a release in this year, possibly autumn. Games Day will be heavily 40k in its anniversary year, and I doubt we'll only see 2 more 40k codeces this year, especially with Christmas being all about the Hobbit...


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## bitsandkits

well drbored is way off with his eldar is the worst selling army, tau and sisters are the worst selling armies, sisters well that ones obvious, but tau sales are far far poorer that Eldar, Eldar sales are currently up for two reasons, one, Dark eldar means focus also shifts to the craft worlders for those who like the idea of eldar but not dark and secondly they just got a massive shot in the arm with IA11 and the corsair list and a santa sack of FW goodies in the last twelve months. Eldar should get a new codex but this year i would doubt, and even if they did it would be a quick and dirty codex update,similar to nids, few new units and some stuff shifted from metal to plastic and some pretty pictures and fluff. Chaos on the other hand needs a huge amount of resources and major boost so i can see them being in the starter set above anything else.
Plus the girl grabber argument is made moot by Sisters of battle, they are and always have been girl grabbers and GW know that isnt a target market for them.


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## slaaneshy

Well if we dont see dark angels over the next 8 weeks or so, we will soon know this is a load of old pony.


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## kickboxerdog

after recently spending some time up my local gw gaming i had an intresting chat with a friend of mine and the feeling they have in store is that the new 40k starter armys is gonna be dark angels vs chaos cultists, obversily this is only an opinion and assumption and what he gathered after recently coming back from gw HQ.


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## Adramalech

jondoe297 said:


> Very true, apologies, if Necron's 2nd wave is next month.
> 4 and half years . . . that long? maybe the real dex got lost in the warp?


well, we got a CSM dex in mid-late 4th edition (september 2007), and then 5th came with no CSM update (but to be fair there were other armies that needed it MUCH more) and now there's a rumored codex update for 6th.


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## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> In the past, 40k has been released and very swiftly followed by whatever codex needed the update. Usually Marines (as the top seller and 40%+ of all 40k sales) get a new dex fairly swiftly. When nids were in the new box, they got their codex almost immediately.
> 
> There is *no* precedent for "they won't release a codex the same / following month". Main rulebook releases break the normal cycle.


does that mean they could do a fantasy release -with- the 40k rulebook? or that they would do two large 40k releases in the same month?


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## MadCowCrazy

bitsandkits said:


> Plus the girl grabber argument is made moot by Sisters of battle, they are and always have been girl grabbers and GW know that isnt a target market for them.


I think this way of looking at it has become rather outdated. From what I remember from World of Warcraft for instance was that 50% of males play a female character. When I was a kid I always played male characters as I "wanted to be that person", now I always play female characters as I want to look at someone who is strong, independent and capable of taking care of herself, basically what I'd like to see in a girlfriend.

This is what drew me to the Sisters of Battle, I had never played a 40k game before Soulstorm and I just fell in love with the way women were portrayed. Normally women are portrayed as helpless weaklings that need a man to protect them, but in 40k they take names and kick (burn) ass.

It is however true that GW is kinda stuck in the mentality that women are weak and pretty much all fluff regarding the Sisters of Battle portray this. SoB rarely win and if they do it's at +90% loss of troops ratio. I have read and listened to pretty much everything that has ever been released about the Sisters of Battle and if they are not the protagonists they get their asses handed to them, especially if Spheezze Mehreenez are anywhere to be seen.

Even in stories where they are the main focus they almost always get their asses kicked, I can only think of 1 books where this was not the case (Faith and Fire which was the first book that featured the Sisters of Battle).

I'm sure that if GW redid the whole SoB codex, made them balanced and tougher in their fluff, plastic models and the whole shebang they would sell allot better than they are now. Then again this statement is rather retarded as any army that gets some love sell better than it did before.


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## bitsandkits

Either way Sisters are for girls, Eldar are for real men, men who have never tasted Quiche(65 rep points for the film and the actor).


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## Boc

bitsandkits said:


> Either way Sisters are for girls, Eldar are for real men, men who have never tasted Quiche(65 rep points for the film and the actor).


Ernest Goes to Camp, Jim Varney, crushed.


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## normtheunsavoury

Ernest goes to camp

(Damn you Boc!)


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## bitsandkits

ok for a bonus 65 points name the character he says it to in the first scene? BOC you cant answer as i cant rep you


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## normtheunsavoury

Miss St. Cloud

But that time I cheated and had to look it up!


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## SilverTabby

Let's take for example that DA and Eldar are in the box. DA are slated for a codex (apparently) before the box, which makes sense. If eldar are the second race, then they will get a codex release either the same month or the one following. Simple logic: you want people to get all excited about the box armies. You *don't* leave one half of the equation with a 4th Ed codex any longer than absolutely necessary as it will halve your sales.

It is also a possibility that chaos will follow DA *if* Cypher is being reintroduced as a character.

If Chaos cultists are the second race (unlikely, it tends to be power armour vs xenos) then the appropriate chaos dex would be the *same* month, as the current dex doesn't include them.


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## Kastle

Just think of how many of these box sets will sell if it is DA vs Chaos Legion...In my neck of the woods i already have like 6 people practically drooling over this very idea, and feel the need to tell me about it on a daily basis.


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## SilverTabby

It won't be power armour vs power armour. *If* chaos is in that box, it will be cultists and maybe one champion. Maybe some daemons. Eldar makes more sense though - older dex, xenos, perennial favourite race.


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## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> It won't be power armour vs power armour. *If* chaos is in that box, it will be cultists and maybe one champion. Maybe some daemons. Eldar makes more sense though - older dex, xenos, perennial favourite race.


Well to give a flavor of the game I suppose SM vs CSM isn't really showing much range. Great time to fill in the new players on back story but it just seems odd with all the CSM rumor mongering that they wouldn't even be on the horizon while Eldar would appear out of no where and...maybe not that odd but still.

Just seems random to me but I don't know. I wouldn't mind an Eldar update, they just don't seem like the evil arch nemesis for a starter. Doesn't mean they couldn't do it though.


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## MadCowCrazy

Damn it, I spent 30sec on google looking up that Ernest goes to camp thing... bah...

As for drbored I find his rumours very counteractive to pretty much everything we have been told so far. We have allot of Chaos rumours, then again most are from theDarkGeneral, which we usually get before a codex release (Then again we have tons of Tau rumours but they seem unlikely to see a release anytime soon).

With Necrons in May I dont think we will see another codex before 6E hits, we might get one just after and the second starter box army in updated near September when we usually get a starter box.


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## SilverTabby

I don't know about this "no rumours about Eldar" thing. A while back there was a spat of stuff about Phil saying he wasn't writing it as he didn't want to be 'the Eldar guy". Which means it was assigned and being written by someone else. And all that was pre-christmas, which allows enough time for it to be a summer release.

And to be fair, a LOT of the rumours about chaos in the box has been blown up from initial wishful "oh wouldn't this be nice..." to "it's happening cos the internet says so".


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## MidnightSun

This is more a train of thought than a post, feel free to gloss over it if you want.

I don't know what to think... on the one hand, awesome new Chaos codex, yeah! Other hand... it could be next _year_, and I'll be sitting on this money and being bored with no new stuff for ages and generally wasting a year of my life.

On the third hand (I'm Chaos, I'm allowed), you could end up with an even worse Codex than the one we've got. Not likely, but plausible. In any case, I reckon they'll make Obliterators worse, along with the Nurgle stuff, and make the Tzeentch stuff better (who really takes the Tzeentch stuff? I see lots of Lash of Submission, Kharn the Betrayer, Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Blissgivers, but never Ahriman, Deathscreamers, Thousand Sons, or Icons of Tzeentch. It's sad that the god of magic sucks so hard).

And on the fourth hand, this is actually encouraging me to buy Thousand Sons. Fuck, they have as good a chance as anyone at being good in the new book so why not? I'm kind of looking forward to the new Codex as I can buy whatever models I like now and know that they won't suck for much longer (the most recent books have had very few dud units in them - name a Grey Knight unit that's completely unuseable, or a Dark Eldar unit that's not worth even considering - there aren't many around), so if I get some 1KSons then they'll probably be at least semi-competitive, even if not top-notch.

Midnight


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## slaaneshy

Given the success of the Horus Heresy series, is power armour (goodies) v power armour (badies) really that much of a stretch? Just because it has not been done before does not exclude it from ever happening.


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## Boc

slaaneshy said:


> Given the success of the Horus Heresy series, is power armour (goodies) v power armour (badies) really that much of a stretch? Just because it has not been done before does not exclude it from ever happening.


If GW actually managed to package and sell it as an homage to the Horus Heresy, I think it could actually sell quite well coupled with the success of the books.

Still, it would be a rather boring set of sprues for everyone to be power armoured...


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## Karyudo-DS

I'm sure they could break it out with scouts or these mythical cultist's if they wanted. I'm sure the box wouldn't simply be two variations of similar models at least.


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## SilverTabby

The box set is an introduction to the universe. The universe is more than the Imperium. They would (probably) not do Imperium vs ex-Imperium. It's Imperium vs xenos usually, as that broadens the view of the universe.


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## misfratz

SilverTabby said:


> The box set is an introduction to the universe. The universe is more than the Imperium. They would (probably) not do Imperium vs ex-Imperium. It's Imperium vs xenos usually, as that broadens the view of the universe.


Well, the starter sets have been:
2nd ed - Space Marines vs Orks & Grots
3rd ed - Space Marines vs Dark Eldar
4th ed - Space Marines vs Tyranids
5th ed - Space Marines vs Orks

Compare this to fantasy, which has been:
4th ed - High Elves vs Goblins
5th ed - Bretonnians vs Lizardmen
6th ed - Empire vs Orcs
7th ed - Dwarfs vs Night Goblins
8th ed - High Elves vs Skaven

The difference is stark, with so much more variety in the fantasy starter sets. It's not even that it has always been Imperium vs Xenos in 40k, it has always been Loyalist Space Marines vs xenos. If GW were to do, say, IG vs Chaos Space Marines, that would be something of a radical break for them.

My main point though, is that I think you are wrong. 40K is not just all about the Imperium, it is all about the Imperium's finest warriors, the Space Marines. The story of the Horus Heresy, of fully half of these elite warriors turning against the Emperor, is 40K. Everything else is peripheral. So a loyalist vs chaos Space Marine starter set is kind of surprising by its absence.

You would hope that they would throw in something daemonic or cultist to add to the variety, but I think a power armour vs power armour starter set could work.


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## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

misfratz said:


> Well, the starter sets have been:
> 2nd ed - Space Marines vs Orks & Grots
> 3rd ed - Space Marines vs Dark Eldar
> 4th ed - Space Marines vs Tyranids
> 5th ed - Space Marines vs Orks
> 
> Compare this to fantasy, which has been:
> 4th ed - High Elves vs Goblins
> 5th ed - Bretonnians vs Lizardmen
> 6th ed - Empire vs Orcs
> 7th ed - Dwarfs vs Night Goblins
> 8th ed - High Elves vs Skaven
> 
> The difference is stark, with so much more variety in the fantasy starter sets. It's not even that it has always been Imperium vs Xenos in 40k, it has always been Loyalist Space Marines vs xenos. If GW were to do, say, IG vs Chaos Space Marines, that would be something of a radical break for them.


and that Radical Break should really be taken, it would still have power armor, and still be "good guys" versus "bad guys". im sure i know a ton of people who would buy it for both sides.


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## bitsandkits

i can see chaos marines being in it, Orks were a third tier army back when they were put into black reach, now look at them? massive plastic range very popular and loads of support from FW, Chaos needs this attention, they should be the number two selling army after marines, they have masses of potential for expansion,massive sales potential,loads of fluff and history, Eldar are quirky and far too fragile and require too much skill for a starter set. 

personally i think they should leave it as it is and just change the rule book,Assault on black reach is a pretty solid set.


----------



## SilverTabby

B&K: chaos *is* the number 2 army behind marines. I've seen the sales figures, they are consistantly 1-2% higher than the rest following the 40-odd% that is marine sales.

Fantasy is different from 40k, in that there is no central core race around which everything else revolves, so they can put anything in the box. In 40k there is: it's the Imperium. The core history being the HH is hugely indicative of that. Which is why there will always be loyalist marines in there: they are the basis of the entire game.

The other race in the box is there to provide variety, and showcase another race that isn't humans. Marines vs Aliens sells and has marvellous imagery to a newcomer. Marines vs Spikey Marines? Just doesn't work so well. It's all marines, and 40k is more than marines. That's why if chaos is in the box at all, it'll be cultists and / or daemons, but not Spikey marines...


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## MadCowCrazy

Personally I was hoping for SoB vs Necrons but that dream will probably never come to fruition. I think this would have been a good change as it would have taken 2 unpopular armies and made them the main armies, people would have bought the starter to get the small rulebook and perhaps taken a liking to SoB or Necrons, perhaps even built a small force of them.
Instead of getting more SM they most likely have too many of already and not bought anything as they already have everything.

Then again the "starter set" is for new people to get into the hobby and GW wants them to play SM. I think GW should make a custom starter set, basically a small box with templates, dice and mini rulebook that you get for free if you buy 2 different battleforces. That way you could get the rules and get to choose whatever armies it is you want to play.

At the least they could continue with Black Reach after 6E hits and just upgrade the box with the new mini dex and put a stamp on the box saying it's a 6E starter box.


----------



## Adramalech

why not do three or four armies in a starter box? ...oh, right, too expensive.

also: the more I look at these other rumor threads the more likely it seems that we're looking at an august/autumn release-which reinforces what tabby predicted.


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> why not do three or four armies in a starter box? ...oh, right, too expensive.
> 
> also: the more I look at these other rumor threads the more likely it seems that we're looking at an august release.


No, 2 armies because the rules are primarily written for 1 vs 1 games.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> No, 2 armies because the rules are primarily written for 1 vs 1 games.


I guess that makes sense, too. but I've always found that 3-player games are much more fun. ^.^ they move much slower, too, but I usually play games for the social aspect anyway.

well, when all is said and done I find the "will not" arguments more compelling than the "will" arguments regarding chaos being in the starter box.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

An interesting rumour popped up today, after Necrons in May we will get 6E, Chaos and DA pretty much hand in hand. Does this mean 6E and 2 dexes (dicies for u grammar nerds) in the same month?

Personally I could see something like this:
May 5th Necron 2nd Wave
Mid May Fantasy, anything missing from the Empire army book?
June 6E and a Codex (My money would be on CSM)
July Fantasy
August Dark Angels
September 6E Starter box

This does seem weird though, so perhaps:
May Necron
June Fantasy
July 6E and Codex
August Fantasy
September Codex and Starter set

Too much 40k too close to each other...
Source


Adeptus Miniatures said:


> After a long night of gaming with our local gamesworkshop lads we can confirm all new leaked info for the next few months ahead!!! Next month we will see the second wave of releases for the necrons! This includes wraiths, doom scythes and much more!! We can also confirm in the months after this all new dark angels and all new chaos legions codex to go hand in hand with the release of the much anticipated 40k 6th addition!!!!!!! :O (Oh btw theres some fine case lord of the rings too but thats not all important) - Sam


----------



## Karyudo-DS

misfratz said:


> The difference is stark, with so much more variety in the fantasy starter sets. It's not even that it has always been Imperium vs Xenos in 40k, it has always been Loyalist Space Marines vs xenos. If GW were to do, say, IG vs Chaos Space Marines, that would be something of a radical break for them.


That break seems like it would be tough to me. In Fantasy we all know every fantasy setting has elves. Period. It's apparently a fiction requirement (well almost anyway) and of course it being fantasy who wants to fantasize about being the humans? We do that every day!

With 40K though sci-fi doesn't seem as compelled to HAVE ELVES all the time so it's less obvious if you know little about it which sort of makes humans a good starting point. However IG and SoB both have design quirks while SM are an extremely forgiving army stat-wise. If they aren't great at something they're still pretty well off usually. 

Then again most of us discussing all of this probably already play so we're sort of biased no?



MadCowCrazy said:


> Too much 40k too close to each other...


It does seem like a lot really. Would be great if it were the case as I have one of those and do play again another but I agree with you on this. Does seem like a lot to expect out of GW.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

theDarkGeneral has posted some tidbits yet again.


theDarkGeneral said:


> Well, with prices going up yet again in June, if any of ya'll are fond of current models I'd buy them now. Much will change once the Chaos Codex Legions hits and the next year after will be full of releases.
> 
> With lots of "New" special characters ranging from bikers to (possibly) a dread and quite a few Terminator Armored ones, that'll set many players back. Daemon engines (like the Defiler) become much better and much more upgrade-able along with a few new models.
> 
> I can't comment on Chaos Cultists because I've never asked about them (nor do I care much about them). They don't fit in a Chaos Legions Codex to me personally, but perhaps a new Campaign or Lost and the Damned White Dwarf codex?
> 
> What will I be adding when the new Codex hits? Cult Terminators first!!!


----------



## Vhalyar

More from theDarkGeneral



theDarkGeneral said:


> It's been a while...i'll only say that i'm getting more info on HQs moving unit's slot selection...including big monstrous things...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Still calling BS on the lot. I doubt that we will see any new codexes for 40K this year if the new edition is this year. Like Fantasy 2 years ago I do not think GW will release any new codexes for a while because the majority of the fanbase needs the time to adjust to the new rules with their current armies before changing the army books. 

As an aside these rumours from the Dark General sound so stupid its unbelievable. For starters under his proposed changes the Word Bearers would suffer as a legion because of the specialist mumbo jumbo. Secondly the Alpha Legion idea of lets infiltrate nearly everything is not gonna happen. It was this under the old Chaos dex as well as the Space Marine trait that forced GW to hammer that shit down so I doubt it will reappear again. Next of all MORE special characters for Chaos? They have enough as it is that they see the need for half of them to be 1990's models (something that only Eldar seem to share). Chaos currently has 6 at the moment off the top of my head whilst Marines (vanilla) has a total of 10 characters. Not really that much need for Chaos to have more.


----------



## CPT Killjoy

So basically we get all knew everything (40k rules, Chaos rules and models) I guess thats Chaotic enough..... I had no idea GW took things so literally


----------



## whiplash308

I'm so cheesed about the lame price increase. Again. Well some of theDarkGeneral's stuff has to be true. He's the only one giving us any form of information.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Stephen_Newman said:


> Still calling BS on the lot. I doubt that we will see any new codexes for 40K this year if the new edition is this year. Like Fantasy 2 years ago I do not think GW will release any new codexes for a while because the majority of the fanbase needs the time to adjust to the new rules with their current armies before changing the army books.


You think they'd update the game edition with several pre-5th edition books? 





Not that it would be the first time but putting DA on the paint set sort of puts the odd Codex out in the lime-light at the very least. I know I wouldn't intentionally bring attention to one of the weakest marine chapters I had. Though they aren't terribly weak either...but you'll have new players asking why that army pays more for things. Maybe GW is okay with that though I wouldn't be. Then again I guess I would run 40k a bit differently than they do anyway.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Karyudo-DS said:


> You think they'd update the game edition with several pre-5th edition books?


I think there are a couple of Fantasy army books that are even now 2 editions out of date *COUGH* Wood Elves, Brettonions and Dwarfs *COUGH* that might disagree with you there.


----------



## jieran

3 books makes no sense, it should be either be two or four, two would make the most sense as it would be similar to the old realm of chaos books, either way i cant see three books. :grin:


----------



## LukeValantine

whiplash308 said:


> I'm so cheesed about the lame price increase. Again. Well some of theDarkGeneral's stuff has to be true. He's the only one giving us any form of information.


That sounds a lot like desperation to me.....I is sad panda too.


----------



## SilverTabby

Some of Thedarkgeneral's stuff is likely to be true, simply because some of what he's saying is logical progression (characters moving slots around - every new codex has that) and some is simply fixing the most broken aspects of the current codex. I'm sure that if I could be bothered, I could sit down and write a page of rumours on the new book, have it sound awesome and be believed simply because it would all be feasible given what the last few books have. 

The simple fact is, we can read rumours til the cows come home, none of these people are likely to have seen the book, and some of what they say will be right simply by chance or logical deduction.


----------



## MidnightSun

SilverTabby said:


> Some of Thedarkgeneral's stuff is likely to be true, simply because some of what he's saying is logical progression (characters moving slots around - every new codex has that) and some is simply fixing the most broken aspects of the current codex.


Imperial Guard cry in your face.

Anyhow, I don't agree that 'Darkgeneral must be right because he's the only one saying it' - I can say that running Ku'Gath and 9 Beasts of Nurgle, with 2 minimum squads of Daemonettes and then spamming Nurglins is a good army, doesn't mean I'm right :biggrin:

Midnight


----------



## Vhalyar

SilverTabby said:


> Some of Thedarkgeneral's stuff is likely to be true, simply because some of what he's saying is logical progression (characters moving slots around - every new codex has that)


Necrons don't


----------



## SilverTabby

I haven't read the new necron codex :wink: But no-one seems to be complaining through lack of it, so it's not the "must have" secret ingredient that makes a codex good. 

Come to think of it, 'nids don't have any either. They have a troops option that makes an HQ into troops. Personally, I like that better than an HQ that moves slots around.

And IG aren't a 'new' codex... Though doesn't one of their HQs do something to conscripts / convicts? I'll have to read it again, I haven't played my Guard in a while.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Stephen_Newman said:


> I think there are a couple of Fantasy army books that are even now 2 editions out of date *COUGH* Wood Elves, Brettonions and Dwarfs *COUGH* that might disagree with you there.


Don't play fantasy so not on my radar. Were they featured in paint and or starter sets too? I mean Dark Eldar were 2 editions behind...but they were up to date when they were in the starter at least.

It's not impossible for it to happen. It just seems strange that we wouldn't see anything. Not an expert in Chaos but Dark Angels seem to lack very many unique abilities now, but out of 5 unique HQ choices you can only find 2 in stores. Again, just seems strange to not sweep them under the rug and keep them there to me. Of course it does still happen anyway I guess.



SilverTabby said:


> Come to think of it, 'nids don't have any either. They have a troops option that makes an HQ into troops. Personally, I like that better than an HQ that moves slots around.


I think they have several options like that actually. Don't remember what they're based on but my usual opponent has gotten into nids, so I'll have to deal with it eventually.


----------



## SilverTabby

Unless I'm missing something huge in my current active army, termagants making Tervigons troops is the only option like that.


----------



## Dawnstar

SilverTabby said:


> Unless I'm missing something huge in my current active army, termagants making Tervigons troops is the only option like that.


No that's the only option like that in the Nid book, I'm fairly sure


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dawnstar said:


> SilverTabby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I'm missing something huge in my current active army, termagants making Tervigons troops is the only option like that.
> 
> 
> 
> No that's the only option like that in the Nid book, I'm fairly sure
Click to expand...


----------



## Dawnstar

Damn, I'm confused now :laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

An interesting release schedule rumour popped up today, including some 6E starter box content rumours.



DrLove42 said:


> OK so I went to a comp last weekend (yesterday in fact ).
> At this I had a chat with a guy who until recently used to be a GW manager. He talked with me a bit about upcoming stuff.
> 
> Now I know this seems like the least credible source in history (better than my brothers friends sister works at a printing company though) but other people from the club he'd come from say hes usually been right about his rumours;
> 
> May
> Next wave Necrons. Also a suprise wave of fliers (the DE Voidraven, Necron Fliers, an Ork Fightabomba and a aircraft for regular marines. Maybe stuff for other races wasn't sure)at the end of the month, with rules in WD
> 
> DA
> Next Book.- Preorder at end of may for beginning on June release
> 
> 6th Ed
> End of June.
> 
> 6th Ed starter box
> Will not be released in the traditional pre-UK games day slot, and will likely be earlier (when he didn't say)
> 
> Chaos vs DA. DA includes 5 Ravenwing, 5 Deathwing, some Tac Marines and a Deathwing Commander.
> 
> Chaos includes some chosen, a sorceror and a boatload of cultists (He did say he didn't see a Dread - which is against every other rumour thus far I think - But he did admit only seeing some of the sprues- Sorceror also opens up possibilites of those plastic Plaguebearers we've heard about before)
> 
> Chaos
> Will be before the box set, supposedly preorders up at the end of July.
> 
> Tau
> November.
> 
> He claimed GW are trying to release 3 codexes and the main rule book this year, in addition to another fantasy book and the hobbit stuff, so releases may seem more closely packed than we're used to
> 
> As I said, credibiltiy seems laughable, but I believed him. Maybe that makes me an idiot. We'll just to wait and see.....


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> Unless I'm missing something huge in my current active army, termagants making Tervigons troops is the only option like that.


Thought there was at least something else. I've only played against nids a few times though so I'd assume if you run them you know them much better. The solid extent of my knowledge is that I should bring flamers and lots of them (at least against the ones I play).


----------



## Adramalech

Karyudo-DS said:


> Thought there was at least something else. I've only played against nids a few times though so I'd assume if you run them you know them much better. The solid extent of my knowledge is that I should bring flamers and lots of them (at least against the ones I play).


I hope the new CSM will be able to compete readily with other marine armies.

ALSO: well damn. I went off on a thought tangent and forgot to follow it with words... of course, confusion is always fun, right?


----------



## Boc

Good find MCC, and while (if it's true) it isn't as soon as I was hoping, it makes sense. Though it does kind of correspond with the possibility of the WD spine being Cypher, plays to both Chaos players and DA


----------



## MidnightSun

Just ordered some Thousand Sons, because I fear the new models will look terrible if the plastics on the Thunderwolf are anything to go by. I also fear that I won't be able to use them because, as Word Bearers, I'm allowed Daemons or CSM with some Dark Apostles and Chaplains to try and make up for the lost Heavy Support slot.

Seriously, I'm going to call BS on next to all of these rumours, and if they're true I'll ask if I can use the current Chaos dex.

Midnight


----------



## Vhalyar

After DrBored and his half-assed rumors comes... DrLove! Seems like a doctorate is now required in order to deal with rumors.


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


>


oh my


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I could be a proctologist .... that way people could say: He is such an asshole doctor.:laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

OIIIIIIO said:


> I could be a proctologist .... that way people could say: He is such an asshole doctor.:laugh:


I could be a neurosurgeon .... that way people could say: HEY?! WHAT ARE YO... erp derp prrrt duuuu blrrrrr :crazy:

I guess people would call me an artist as I'd make people into an image of myself :crazy:


----------



## Tawa

All the proctocologist's in the room, please put your hand up.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TastyTaste over at BoK posted a release schedule rumour today, a pretty horrifying one at that. Then again it could be true as Fantasy had to wait a long time for army book updates after their new edition of the game.
So now we have 2 sets of release rumours, one so jam packed with 40K it seems to be too much 40k in too short a time span and this rumour with almost no codex updates this year but allot of model releases instead.
Source


TastyTaste said:


> 40k players will only get one codex this year and that is Chaos Space Marines– along with 6th edition of course.
> 
> So the time-table has changed and looks like this:
> 
> June-July 6th Edition
> 
> Sept-Oct Chaos Space Marines
> 
> Sprinkle in some flyers, buildings, and that is all you will see from the 40k front for the year.


----------



## Dawnstar

While I find myself ok with that, I'm beginning to wonder who has the actual rumors and who's simply making stuff up as they go along. I do find it hard to believe that in the year of 40k's 25th anniversary there would only be one codex release, though 6th Edition is something that might cause people to refrain from army purchases until they feel confident with their knowledge of the new rules and how it affects the army


----------



## GrizBe

I put zero value on anything Tasteytase and BoK has to say. 

Hell, at one point he said we'd not get the Necron second wave until next year....


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Dawnstar said:


> While I find myself ok with that, I'm beginning to wonder who has the actual rumors and who's simply making stuff up as they go along.


Possibly everyone? Would be odd for GW to hype up DA and leave everyone with a 4th nerfed codex though.


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> I put zero value on anything Tasteytase and BoK has to say.
> 
> Hell, at one point he said we'd not get the Necron second wave until next year....


At one point Harry was convinced that the new starter box would be Eldar vs Dark Angels. Then Hastings came along and said nope, it's Chaos vs DA and Harry changed his statement to that. Guess people can't correct themselves :laugh:

At the very least I've got more faith in BoK than theDarkGeneral who doesn't make any distinction between 'rumor' and 'wishlisting' when he posts.


----------



## Tawa

Vhalyar said:


> At the very least I've got more faith in BoK than theDarkGeneral who doesn't make any distinction between 'rumor' and 'wishlisting' when he posts.


I want a plastic thunderhawk and a pony!


----------



## Dawnstar

Tawa said:


> I want a plastic thunderhawk and a pony!


I want a plastic pony and a thunderhawk! :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TastyTaste as put up some rumours today, breaking his site as always.
Rules for traitor guard sounds really cool but does it mean actual unit entries or just some allied rules?


TastyTaste said:


> It is about time we get some information on the new Chaos Space Marine codex. Before we get right into let us start out with some ground rules.
> The Chaos Space Marine codex is the only 40k codex for this year. It is not going to be divided into two codexes or anything special. This is not the return 3.5 codex everyone has been wanting this is more a clean up than anything else.
> With that said let us get started.
> 
> Troops choices will be Chaos Space Marines and Cultists
> All Cult Marines are Elites
> No new Special Characters
> Special Characters will unlock Cult Marines as troops (Kharn for Berserkers and so on)
> Typhus makes Cultists into Zombies
> Chaos Dreadnaught is removed and replaced with a new unit (like how pariahs were replaced with Lychguard)
> CSM now get a Flyer a Mechanical Chaos Dragon (model is done will be part of initial release)
> Lesser and Greater Demons are gone
> Spawn replaced by “Fell Beast”
> 
> I feel like I am missing something…
> Oh yeah…
> Almost Forgot...
> Rules for Traitor Guard are in!


----------



## experiment 626

These rumors make me sad honestly...

Only SC's can unlock cult units as Troops? So much for giving players freedom of choice, thanks instead for designing our armies for us.
I mean seriously, aren't we utterly sick of 'Vulkan marines' or 'Crowe marines' or 'Loganwing' yet?!!

No new SC's?! Chaos left out in the cold, yet again. New stuff everyone but us it seems.

Cultists & Traitor Guard? Sounds like every wishlisting fanboy's dream come true... I thought we didn't get those options for the sake of game balance?!
So looks like we can now have hordes of cheap fodder to screan all the good stuff and make every non chaos player cry cheese faster than you can shake a GK at them!

No daemons at all? Bye-bye Word Bearers, you guys don't need an idenity anyways, welcome to your new life as 'the other red marines'.

Flying metal chaos dragon? WTF?!!


I'm hoping this is all just BS personally.


----------



## mcmuffin

experiment 626 said:


> These rumors make me sad honestly...
> 
> Only SC's can unlock cult units as Troops? So much for giving players freedom of choice, thanks instead for designing our armies for us.
> I mean seriously, aren't we utterly sick of 'Vulkan marines' or 'Crowe marines' or 'Loganwing' yet?!!
> 
> No new SC's?! Chaos left out in the cold, yet again. New stuff everyone but us it seems.
> 
> Cultists & Traitor Guard? Sounds like every wishlisting fanboy's dream come true... I thought we didn't get those options for the sake of game balance?!
> So looks like we can now have hordes of cheap fodder to screan all the good stuff and make every non chaos player cry cheese faster than you can shake a GK at them!
> 
> No daemons at all? Bye-bye Word Bearers, you guys don't need an idenity anyways, welcome to your new life as 'the other red marines'.
> 
> Flying metal chaos dragon? WTF?!!
> 
> 
> I'm hoping this is all just BS personally.


So, now that we have about 15 lines of credible rumours, the world is ending? Who knows if daemons will turn into something that are word bearers only or whatnot? Seriously, chillax, this sounds an awful lot like the BoK rumour on the deathray which nuked entire units according to them. Probably something lost in translation here.

I like the sound of most of this, i have always thought that cult marines should be unlocked by a HQ, maybe not an SC, but it doesn't bother me much.


----------



## SilverTabby

Don't forget, special characters are just a statline and gear. You can model them however you like. And in non-legion armies Cult units *should* be elites. They're much better/specialised than normal chaos marines.

Everything mentioned there sounds like GW trying to make them "chaos" rather than "Spikey marines". 

Also remember, that no-one outside of the studio knows whether this is the only Chaos book. This sounds very much like "generic chaos with some marines" rather than "legions with some other stuff". I know that 3 years ago there was talk of specific legion books, World Eaters being the main one discussed. 

I have minor chaos forces myself, and this looks like a good generic base to build off for most non-legion armies.


----------



## Caratacos

What would happen to dreadnoughts then? Forgeworld are producing several legion specific dreads - would this make them just stop, or would the dreads enter the Imperial (Chaos) Armour books? Are there any rules for Chaos dreads in them already?


----------



## Kastle

If the traitor guard is in. It would be cool and interesting to something like the Tyrant of badab army in a codex as oppose to IA10...could be alot of fun


----------



## TheKingElessar

mcmuffin said:


> I like the sound of most of this, i have always thought that cult marines should be unlocked by a HQ, maybe not an SC, but it doesn't bother me much.





SilverTabby said:


> Don't forget, special characters are just a statline and gear. You can model them however you like. And in non-legion armies Cult units *should* be elites. They're much better/specialised than normal chaos marines.


I am in total agreement with this concept. I even wrote it into my never-finished homebrews, for me there can be no question that it's a better solution than having rainbow Chaos armies all the time.


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

I'm not in such agreement with cult troops should be elites. If cult troops need to be unlocked by SC (or preferably just an HQ) then it makes sense that troop choices should be whichever cult the SC/HQ unlocks. 

Why would typhus lead an army of just regular chaos marines when he has plague marines at his disposal? Makes even more sense if he's going to turn cultists into zombies.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well, we know why Kharn would...I could see the Herald of Nurgle turning up unannounced, killing a force's leader, taking charge, and leading them to battle in order to convert them to Grandfather Nurgle's willing arms...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BramGaunt said:


> As far as I've been told the unlock thing is correct, BUT!
> 
> Kharn, Ahriman etc unlock cult troops as general troop choices, as many as you whish. I heard that for each general HQ choice you grant a mark of a Chaos God, you can take one Cult Unit as core aswell. So, an army with Kharn could have as many Units of Berzerkers to go along with him as he whishes, because he's usually surounded by these guys. If you 'only' have a Chaos General with Khorne's favor he still may grant one unit of his favorites to the general to support his cause.
> 
> I was also told that you would have to name one of your HQs as your army's general, because that's the one who'll give you troop choices. So if you had Ahriman and Kharn, you'd have to pick between berzerkers and Thousand Sons as troop choices, you won't have both


----------



## TheKingElessar

Frankly, not being able to take both would be a crock of shit. It's like they're taking the worst aspect of Chapter Tactics' mechanic, and using it instead of running with it the way I did...


----------



## SoulGazer

I certainly hope that these are just rumors for the "Renegades" Chaos dex and is separate from the "Legions" dex. That or my Word Bearers are going to be collecting dust for the next 5 years.

*Immediately screams that the sky is falling due to random and vague and possibly untrue rumors*


----------



## MidnightSun

I has butthurt. No Chaos Dreads, no Daemons, forced to take SCs if you want the actual Chaos troops (as opposed to the Space Marines with CCWs)?

Panic time.

Midnight


----------



## Vhalyar

Bigred is now backing up the BoK rumors.



> Other tongues are wagging behind the scenes with clarification, and caveats, but fundamentally confirming most of this is correct. Expect to see more details in the days ahead.


Keywords being 'most' and 'caveats'. Hopefully there's more flexibility than what has is rumored at.

And some totally unknown person is claiming that the dragon thingawhateverthefuck is for 40k, but not for Chaos.



> Just a quick one to clarify a rather hilarious mistake; GW is working on a 'dragon' for 40k. Just not for Chaos.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Clearly the 'dragon' is a Fire Dragon...


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

TheKingElessar said:


> Clearly the 'dragon' is a Fire Dragon...


No way! Has to be the Void Dragon:security: (wooooo 1000 posts)


----------



## Karyudo-DS

TheKingElessar said:


> Frankly, not being able to take both would be a crock of shit. It's like they're taking the worst aspect of Chapter Tactics' mechanic, and using it instead of running with it the way I did...


Yeah, pretty odd that other armies (like DA) can convert non-troops to troops like that. Though I don't often find a big need to have both terminators and bikers as troops plus the tactical marines as the former two are better off killing and harassing things. Might be the line of thinking.

Of course I wouldn't really think much of this till it's in print anyway. Still waiting on that marine "flyer" rumor.


----------



## SilverTabby

To be honest, I like the idea of "you can unlock *one* type of cult troop with a SC". Why the hell would Ahriman unlock noise marines? Brings back a small amount of the old animosity feel, and also stops the "pick the best bits and not bother theming" armies. After all, the Legions followed one God apiece, other than those like the Black Legion, who are undivided and so would have very few god-specific troops, hence they are elites.

Don't get upset about the new 'dex til you've actually read the new 'dex. _These are just rumours_. No-one outside the Studio has read it yet, and any information will be secondhand at best, and based off the later drafts of the book.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Tabby - it's not about Ahriman unlocking Noise Marines, it's bad if you have Ahriman and Lucius, and can only unlock one of their Legions. If you pay the usually exorbitant cost of a Special Character, you should benefit from all of their rules - otherwise you pay for an ability you don't use, making it massively overcosted (probably) and thus not worth using, which means not worth buying, which means less money for GW.

Bad for everyone.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheKingElessar said:


> Tabby - it's not about Ahriman unlocking Noise Marines, it's bad if you have Ahriman and Lucius, and can only unlock one of their Legions. If you pay the usually exorbitant cost of a Special Character, you should benefit from all of their rules - otherwise you pay for an ability you don't use, making it massively overcosted (probably) and thus not worth using, which means not worth buying, which means less money for GW.
> 
> Bad for everyone.


If you're playing a game where you can field more than one special character, chances are you're in a game big enough for apocalypse and you ignore the FoC anyway :wink:

Rules like this are intended to stop people taking multiple Special Characters in one small army. Why the hell would two hugely powerful leaders of two different legions be in the same tiny skirmish force? Take one, have their troops options and buy the others from your elites slots. 

That's if these rules are true, and I kinda hope they are.


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

Karyudo-DS said:


> Yeah, pretty odd that other armies (like DA) can convert non-troops to troops like that. Though I don't often find a big need to have both terminators and bikers as troops plus the tactical marines as the former two are better off killing and harassing things. Might be the line of thinking.
> 
> Of course I wouldn't really think much of this till it's in print anyway. Still waiting on that marine "flyer" rumor.


Actually, it seems to be a trend now that by taking a certain HQ or SC you "unlock" the ability to take elites as troop choices or unlock the unit limit or some other such thing. BA have Astorath that removes the limit on Death Company. Grey Knights have Iquisitor Coteaz that allows you to take unlimited henchmen as troop choices. Dark Eldar have Urien Rakarth/any Haemonculi that lets you take wracks as troops as well as Baron Sathonyx that lets you take Hellions as troops. Tyranids have termagant broods that let you take a tervigon as a troop choice for each brood of gants you have. 

These unlock abilities are to create a theme to the army. So it would really make sense that if you take Typhus, you can take plague marines as troop choices, otherwise they count as elites or Lucius unlocking noise marines as troops and so forth


----------



## MidnightSun

But what if you want to run a World Eaters army without Kharn? Not every Death Guard warband is led by Typhus, nor can Ahriman afford to fight in every single skirmish. It's way too restrictive for the people playing the Legions that swore themselves to one God.

Midnight


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

MidnightSun said:


> But what if you want to run a World Eaters army without Kharn? Not every Death Guard warband is led by Typhus, nor can Ahriman afford to fight in every single skirmish. It's way too restrictive for the people playing the Legions that swore themselves to one God.
> 
> Midnight


I agree with that. That's why I would like to see them just have it be a regular HQ with x cult unlocks x cult marines as troops. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a SC. I would also imagine there would still be the generic chaos lord for those that want to go the chaos undivided route and they can still take cult marines, just as elite choices.


----------



## SilverTabby

And every other codex says the SC doesn't have to be (for example) Typhus: he could be a Nurgle general of your choosing with a big scythe and stinky armour. 

If the rumour was true, giving your general a Mark allows one elite slot to be troops. In a small skirmish force, that's a big bonus. So you buy one cult troop, one CSM squad and take any extras as elites. 

It also means: SC leading - all cult troops. General leading - cult + 1CSM. Undivided general leading - 2 CSM. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.


----------



## MidnightSun

But the 'use the SC rules as your own Chaos Lord' thing doesn't fit.

What if I want to take someone like The Exalted as my Tzeentch Chaos Lord? TDA/Twin Lightning Claws is nothing like Ahriman's loadout. Equally, what if I want a Power Armoured Nurgle Lord? There's no customisability - call the guy what you want, he still has x, y and z and there's no way of changing that.

Midnight


----------



## Katie Drake

I seriously doubt Pedro Kantor is at every battle the Crimson Fists fight either, yet he's required to play a Crimson Fist army. It's the same thing, Chaos isn't going to be given special consideration here. If you want an army with a specific theme, you have to take the character, like just about everyone else in the game these days.


----------



## LukeValantine

If they are going with the stupid SC unlocking route they better make Thousand sons and noise marines a hell lot more us full, other wise I expect to so 25-30 times more Kharn, and typhus lists then Ahriman or Lucius lists. I mean who would be stupid enough to take Lucius or Ahriman just to take so so CSM's as your troops?

Also I am generally not a fan of adopting anymore similarities to the smurf book, as the greater the gap between the two the happier I am. This book is also so heavily expected that it would be a shame if it ended up just grabbing trends and concepts from other books. Although I think all those with 2-3 CSM dreads like me are a bit pissed about the idea of them just drooping a unit from the book all together.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I hate having to take special chars to unlock certain options, mainly because our gaming club doesn't allow special chars in games. It's something I've been trying to get changed but the old timers say they are so unbalanced and ruin the game as you build your army around them rather than with them.

One of the reasons I didn't start collecting Grey Knights, I wanted to make henchmen armies but I can't, not at our gaming club anyway.


----------



## MidnightSun

You need some moar gaming buddies, MadCow 

Special Characters are an entirely different breed to Special Characters in 2nd.

Midnight


----------



## MadCowCrazy

MidnightSun said:


> You need some moar gaming buddies, MadCow
> 
> Special Characters are an entirely different breed to Special Characters in 2nd.
> 
> Midnight


I wish, problem is I live on a small shitty island so I basically have to take what I get.

Also why do you end your posts with "Midnight", you name is next to your post so why "sign" your posts?


----------



## Black Legionare

MadCowCrazy said:


> I wish, problem is I live on a small shitty island so I basically have to take what I get.
> 
> Also why do you end your posts with "Midnight", you name is next to your post so why "sign" your posts?


It makes him feel special.


----------



## LukeValantine

What kind of special?


----------



## Vhalyar

BOLS Time? BOLS Time!



> Chaos Marines
> -The "flying dragon thingy" is coming. It is a flyer and one of two entirely new units added to the codex.
> -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.
> -The Chaos Dreadnought is indeed still there (take a breath people), but gets a new name, and a rules overhaul.
> -Hardcover book (just like Fantasy army books)





> 6th Edition
> -Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
> -There will be "lore equivalents"
> -Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
> -Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
> -The FOC may be history


Fantasy mechanics leaking into 40k? Uaaargh this is fucked up. Fantasy's gone down the shitter because of these new rules 

edit:
- Signed, Albert Romellius the Third, Prince of Oreozania.


----------



## Electric-Ashes

Katie Drake said:


> I seriously doubt Pedro Kantor is at every battle the Crimson Fists fight either, yet he's required to play a Crimson Fist army. It's the same thing, Chaos isn't going to be given special consideration here. If you want an army with a specific theme, you have to take the character, like just about everyone else in the game these days.


I would say that your argument is slightly flawed since Pedro only unlocks veterans that are basicly just marines with slightly better armour and equipment.

Besides, it would make sense for the loyalist leaders to all have the same wargear since they follow the codex astartes. There is no codex nurglite that demands all Death Guard leaders to be scythe wielding, terminator armoured sorcerers.


----------



## SilverTabby

If the FoC is going, then 40k release day will see a MASSIVE FAQ go up online and in stores, to fix *every* other codex out there. That would explain the 'no other 40k releases this year' rumour, it would be making sure everything has settled with the adjustments and seeing how they work with the public before bringing out any other books with those changes in hardcopy. A new Tau or Eldar 'dex with things they've missed on such a huge change would be there for 4 - 5 years...

Though I am sceptical about huge change, I can also see it happening. The last big shake-up was 3rd Ed, and that was over 10 years ago. They did it with WHF, they can do it with 40k. And WHF hasn't "gone down the shitter", it's gone through the same player-base change 40k did with 2nd to 3rd. Those who don't like it leave, new people don't know any different.


----------



## TheKingElessar

If Psychic powers become random again, that in of itself may be a reason to quit. I enjoy the game being balanced and competitive, and the only way an army can do that is if it is consistent. I'm not a child anymore, and bright lights, loud noises, and simply rolling shitfuls of dice is no longer what I'm after. 

The fact that this rumour has come up again, combined with the FoC dropping, means I will not be making any more purchases for my Space Wolves until I see 6th for myself. Luckily, most is still on the sprue, and easier to sell on...


----------



## mcmuffin

If those 6th ed rumours are true i fail to see how 40k can be a competitive game instead of the "roll dice and win" system that is 8th ed fantasy. That fucking sucks.


----------



## slaaneshy

These rules for sc will see more sales of said sc...in the more expensive finecast version no doubt....so makes perfect marketing sense.


----------



## MidnightSun

Nah, they'll make one or two of them good and the others suck, and the fact that to play a good army you need to take that SC you'll see loads of demand for one or two Cult troops and SCs, and next to none for the others. I mean, there's already a massive bias towards Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines over Thousand Sons and Noise Marines, this system will just exacerbate the problem.

Midnight


----------



## slaaneshy

mcmuffin said:


> If those 6th ed rumours are true i fail to see how 40k can be a competitive game instead of the "roll dice and win" system that is 8th ed fantasy. That fucking sucks.


It's not been competitive for some time my friend, no gaming system is that takes 5 years to update armies!


----------



## Katie Drake

Electric-Ashes said:


> I would say that your argument is slightly flawed since Pedro only unlocks veterans that are basicly just marines with slightly better armour and equipment.
> 
> Besides, it would make sense for the loyalist leaders to all have the same wargear since they follow the codex astartes. There is no codex nurglite that demands all Death Guard leaders to be scythe wielding, terminator armoured sorcerers.


He makes Sternguard scoring units and gives the entire army the Stubborn rule.

If Pedro isn't a great example, what about Crowe from the Grey Knight Codex? Would he be at literally every battle with more than a couple squads of Purifiers present? Probably not, yet he's required if you want a Purifier-heavy army. It's just how the game works these days, so I don't really get why Chaos players are surprised by the news.


----------



## mcmuffin

slaaneshy said:


> It's not been competitive for some time my friend, no gaming system is that takes 5 years to update armies!


5th edition is the most competitive 40k has ever been. The system works, but they will change it to something that doesnt work instead of just fixing the minor errors in it. 

40k can be played competitively without comp, most of the armies are balanced, minus nids and sisters, while some just take more skill to play competitively; Eldar and Tau.


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

I really doubt they'll be dropping the FoC. Why include it in the codexes that were dropped last year? They had to know at that point whether they were going to be even having a FoC. Though I'm not a big user of psykers in 40k, I can definitely see how it would suck. Though again, I don't see how this would be happening as those same codexes still let you pick and choose psychic powers and what not. I think many of the radical changes are going to turn out to be just rumors and won't actually materialize.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Mcmuffin said:


> 5th edition is the most competitive 40k has ever been. The system works, but they will change it to something that doesnt work instead of just fixing the minor errors in it.
> 
> 40k can be played competitively without comp, most of the armies are balanced, minus nids and sisters, while some just take more skill to play competitively; Eldar and Tau.


While I agree, I'd like to say that I no longer consider Tau among competitive armies, not above 1500 points anyway. Too much discrepancy in relation to the paucity of Troops choices...


----------



## Kreuger

Katie Drake said:


> He makes Sternguard scoring units and gives the entire army the Stubborn rule.
> 
> If Pedro isn't a great example, what about Crowe from the Grey Knight Codex? Would he be at literally every battle with more than a couple squads of Purifiers present? Probably not, yet he's required if you want a Purifier-heavy army. It's just how the game works these days, so I don't really get why Chaos players are surprised by the news.


I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I just think its a poor game mechanic. And I wouldn't make that case any differently as a chaos player or an eldar one. It ratchets up the static nature of armies, which I find disappointing. 

I think its perfectly reasonable to have a character with no set options that becomes the X to take an army endowed with extra Y. The previous chaos codex did that, and I wish they gave every army that flexibility.


----------



## Katie Drake

Kreuger said:


> I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I just think its a poor game mechanic. And I wouldn't make that case any differently as a chaos player or an eldar one. It ratchets up the static nature of armies, which I find disappointing.
> 
> I think its perfectly reasonable to have a character with no set options that becomes the X to take an army endowed with extra Y. The previous chaos codex did that, and I wish they gave every army that flexibility.


Oh I agree with the general sentiment that the idea is a silly one, I'm just remarking on the apparent surprise I've seen among Chaos players here and elsewhere that their book will get the same treatment as everyone else.

I'd like to return to the days of more complex sub-armies as much as anybody, but it isn't looking likely to return anytime soon, if at all.


----------



## Vhalyar

More rumors from totally unknown sources! Because we love unknown source, don't we?



> Imagine a dragon made of "fire" and coverd in a platemale armor and you won't be too far off. That is the best discription I can give.
> 
> Some of the concept art shows it mauling a valkyrie mid flight. It is pretty cool.


From the Faeit 212 blog.

My prediction:








With more flames. And it combines with the Dreadknight-equivalent and the not-dreadnought into Megabaddon.


----------



## GrizBe

As a rumour origionating from Blood of Kittens I can guarentee it'll be bollocks. He never gets anything right... yet people still rate him. Go figure.


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that once spoke with a GW manager that Horus is actually being brought back.


----------



## Black Legionare

BloodAngelZeros said:


> I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that once spoke with a GW manager that Horus is actually being brought back.


Well I heard from my roomate's, pet's, best friend's, mom's, pen-pal that the emperor has actually fallen to Chaos, and is going to be inducted into the next codex. Oh, and GW is actually decreasing prices!


----------



## TheKingElessar

If you can't spell correctly, then I won't trust your rumours, mister anonymous source.

As for the mini-discussion about Special Characters being Unlocks, I think it's a GREAT idea. Gives us a reason to actually buy the things, rather than them haemorrhaging GW money languishing on the shelves, because people can simply say 'No, I think Special Characters are broken, and refuse to play against them!' - While generic ones are perfect in some cases (and I would prefer, for instance, the Khornate Legion HQ to be called a Blood Slaughterer, with Kharn the betrayer as an Upgrade Character to this HQ selection) overall having a reason to buy these usually overpriced underpowered but aesthetically pleasing figures is good.


----------



## SilverTabby

mcmuffin said:


> 40k can be played competitively without comp, most of the armies are balanced, minus nids and sisters, while some just take more skill to play competitively; Eldar and Tau.


I am curious, why do you put 'nids and Sisters as 'unbalanced'? They are my two primary armies and I do just fine with them. I'd say at worst, they are "take more skill" lists...


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> I am curious, why do you put 'nids and Sisters as 'unbalanced'? They are my two primary armies and I do just fine with them. I'd say at worst, they are "take more skill" lists...


He may be referring to a tournament where their was over 200 players and their was not a single nid or sister player.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I am curious, why do you put 'nids and Sisters as 'unbalanced'? They are my two primary armies and I do just fine with them. I'd say at worst, they are "take more skill" lists...


If I may - he's likely referring to the fact that Nids have few reliable anti-tank options, and they are all in the same slot. As good as Hive Guard are, they'd be FAR better if Zoanthropes could be taken alongside, diffusing enemy fire. The total inability of their Troops to seriously threaten vehicles also holds them back.


----------



## Katie Drake

SilverTabby said:


> I am curious, why do you put 'nids and Sisters as 'unbalanced'? They are my two primary armies and I do just fine with them. I'd say at worst, they are "take more skill" lists...


Tyranids and Sisters work fine until you play competitively in tournament scenarios - they tend to fail in the min/maxed vehicle saturated environment that is so common in competitive events, at least in North America (I don't attend European tournaments so I won't comment on what it's like there).

When you're playing against other people using fluffy/fun/non-optimized lists, they're pretty much perfectly fine and you can rely on player skill to overcome any slight differences in relative power level. It's only in specific situations where a book becomes mostly or even completely non-viable which is why it's kind of funny to look at the army list section and see people talk about how bad Sisters/Nids/Daemons are when 99% of people don't play in big tournies and never will.


----------



## mcmuffin

GrizBe said:


> As a rumour origionating from Blood of Kittens I can guarentee it'll be bollocks. He never gets anything right... yet people still rate him. Go figure.


He got about 90% of the necron rumours spot on.


----------



## Black Legionare

I wonder what elites Abaddon will unlock as troops. Chosen? Terminators? All 4 Cult Troops!?!?


----------



## Katie Drake

Black Legionare said:


> I wonder what elites Abaddon will unlock as troops. Chosen? Terminators? All 4 Cult Troops!?!?


Wouldn't be surprised to see any one of those honestly. Maybe he'll unlock a single unit of each Cult as Troops? So one unit of Zerks, one of Noise Marines and so on.


----------



## Necrosis

mcmuffin said:


> He got about 90% of the necron rumours spot on.


Wasn't he also right about the sisters of battle to?

Edit:
I think Abaddon will unlock termies as troops.


----------



## Black Legionare

If he unlocks terminators... Oh boy, look out Draigo!


----------



## LukeValantine

Another reason for opposing the idea of unlocking units with HQ's is the fact CMS's would have the largest elites section of any army with 6-10 units in one slot, and only 2-3 in slots like fast, and troops. Which is just plain dumb.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheKingElessar said:


> If I may - he's likely referring to the fact that Nids have few reliable anti-tank options, and they are all in the same slot. As good as Hive Guard are, they'd be FAR better if Zoanthropes could be taken alongside, diffusing enemy fire. The total inability of their Troops to seriously threaten vehicles also holds them back.


I do agree that elites are a tad crowded. However, every troops choice barring rippers has the capacity to take out 90% of tanks out there. You just can't reliably do it at range.

Anyway, back on topic... :wink:


----------



## GrizBe

mcmuffin said:


> He got about 90% of the necron rumours spot on.


No.. he copied 90% of his necrons rumors from know reliable sources such as Stickmonkey and Harry who'd posted their stuff nearly a week before he did. The 10% of his 'unique' ones were completely wrong.

Everything he's ever 'gotten right' has already been posted by known reliable people. He just copies them and takes the credit. Yet if you look at the dates he posts stuff, its always after the aforementioned likes of Stickmonkey and Harry have posted their rumours on the same subject.

BoK is just a glory seeker. He got Grey Knights wrong, he got Dark Eldar wrong... and he claimed for the longest time that Sisters were getting a codex update, rather then the WD update they did get. 

I've said it before and i'll say it again, everything posted on BoK and by tasteytaste is crap.


----------



## GrizBe

TheKingElessar said:


> As for the mini-discussion about Special Characters being Unlocks, I think it's a GREAT idea. Gives us a reason to actually buy the things, rather than them haemorrhaging GW money languishing on the shelves, because people can simply say 'No, I think Special Characters are broken, and refuse to play against them!' - While generic ones are perfect in some cases (and I would prefer, for instance, the Khornate Legion HQ to be called a Blood Slaughterer, with Kharn the betrayer as an Upgrade Character to this HQ selection) overall having a reason to buy these usually overpriced underpowered but aesthetically pleasing figures is good.


I like this system too. I've always been a fan of themed lists, and having to take a certain character to unlock certain troop types, or to shift them to a better FoC slot is a good move. 

Now as for characters, if I like the models I'll buy them just to paint, even if I may never use them. That or i'll just sub them in for a none SC version of their character as I'm intending to do with Serez and using him as just a normal Cryptek.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I do agree that elites are a tad crowded. However, every troops choice barring rippers has the capacity to take out 90% of tanks out there. You just can't reliably do it at range.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic... :wink:


Close Combat doesn't reliably work either.  Not as long as vehicles moving 6.1" get hit on no better than 6s. Maybe if Genestealers/Hormagaunts had 6A each on the charge! (Which would be amazing, and I'd buy a Nid army just for lols.)

Abaddon would surely unlock Chosen, which will have an option of Terminator Armour. The 'best' way to approach Chaos Termies is to have two options:
Chosen
Cult Terminators

There is no such animal as a Chaos Terminator that is not one of those things, they tend to die and have their armour stolen. Hell, Chosen could even function exactly as Wolf Guard, and it'd be legit.


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> If the FoC is going, then 40k release day will see a MASSIVE FAQ go up online and in stores, to fix *every* other codex out there. That would explain the 'no other 40k releases this year' rumour, it would be making sure everything has settled with the adjustments and seeing how they work with the public before bringing out any other books with those changes in hardcopy. A new Tau or Eldar 'dex with things they've missed on such a huge change would be there for 4 - 5 years...
> 
> Though I am sceptical about huge change, I can also see it happening. The last big shake-up was 3rd Ed, and that was over 10 years ago. They did it with WHF, they can do it with 40k. And WHF hasn't "gone down the shitter", it's gone through the same player-base change 40k did with 2nd to 3rd. Those who don't like it leave, new people don't know any different.


would you look at the skillful, delicate way tabby dispels everyone's worries and doubts... is it any wonder GW's reputation is doing so well at the moment?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> No.. he copied 90% of his necrons rumors from know reliable sources such as Stickmonkey and Harry who'd posted their stuff nearly a week before he did. The 10% of his 'unique' ones were completely wrong.
> 
> Everything he's ever 'gotten right' has already been posted by known reliable people. He just copies them and takes the credit. Yet if you look at the dates he posts stuff, its always after the aforementioned likes of Stickmonkey and Harry have posted their rumours on the same subject.
> 
> BoK is just a glory seeker. He got Grey Knights wrong, he got Dark Eldar wrong... and he claimed for the longest time that Sisters were getting a codex update, rather then the WD update they did get.
> 
> I've said it before and i'll say it again, everything posted on BoK and by tasteytaste is crap.


Was just about to post pretty much the same thing, should create a reliable rumours monger database to keep track of peoples accuracy regarding rumours.


----------



## Vhalyar

From BOLS:



> First up, various sources have identified Ahriman as being a psyker with Mastery Level:4 (eat that puny Grey Knights). More interestingly the Chaos codex is said to include a new vehicle stat named "Hull Points".


----------



## GrizBe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Was just about to post pretty much the same thing, should create a reliable rumours monger database to keep track of peoples accuracy regarding rumours.


I wish someone would do something like that, along with a percentage accuracy for what they've gotten right thats been unique to them/they've broken first.


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> would you look at the skillful, delicate way tabby dispels everyone's worries and doubts... is it any wonder GW's reputation is doing so well at the moment?


What is it with people thinking I somehow speak for GW? I just know what I'm talking about regarding the Studio :wink:


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> What is it with people thinking I somehow speak for GW? I just know what I'm talking about regarding the Studio :wink:


I actually thought he was being sarcastic...


----------



## GrizBe

SilverTabby said:


> What is it with people thinking I somehow speak for GW? I just know what I'm talking about regarding the Studio :wink:


Its a spy! Get him!


----------



## MidnightSun

Bringing back Psychic Mastery? Well, it's better than having to get the horrifically overpriced Epistolary and Master of Runes upgrades for SM and SW, I guess, although I dread to think what'll happen to Eldrad's power level/points cost if he's kept in the game. 

Hull Points? Well, I guess 5th edition doesn't favour vehicles all that much, making them more durable could be just what the game needs!

I'd like to see psychic duels; any Psyker can challenge to a duel, and thus potentially nullify powers. Would make Thousand Sons a lot more viable if their Sorcerors provide psychic defence and limited 'sniping' abilities.

But this is more about 6th edition, not the Chaos Codex, so I'll drag this back on topic. As long as you aren't limited by taking Undivided (or whatever you'd call the status of the present Codex... and no, crap isn't a valid response) over a dedicated list, I'll be happy. Daemons would be welcome, too.

Midnight

Midnight


----------



## TheKingElessar

Daemons exist at present. 
The ONLY problem with them is that they lack the little characterisation they required. Simply reducing the base S to 3, and giving them the option of Marks that drastically altered stats and special rules would have been sufficient.

- And yes, S3 was necessary, so the Daemonettes in CSM weren't miles better than their counterparts.


----------



## MidnightSun

I meant that Daemons would be welcome in the new Codex to let people who have both use both in one army, and to let Word Bearers play as Word Bearers. :wink:

Midnight


----------



## Vhalyar

MidnightSun said:


> Bringing back Psychic Mastery? Well, it's better than having to get the horrifically overpriced Epistolary and Master of Runes upgrades for SM and SW, I guess, although I dread to think what'll happen to Eldrad's power level/points cost if he's kept in the game.


Grey Knights already brought back Psyker Mastery Levels so it's already here. It makes sense that going forward other armies would use that system.


----------



## MidnightSun

Yeah, but as Grey Knights are _all_ Psykers, they needed some kind of differentiation mechanic.

Now we 'know' it's making a return across the board.

Midnight


----------



## BloodAngelZeros

GrizBe said:


> I wish someone would do something like that, along with a percentage accuracy for what they've gotten right thats been unique to them/they've broken first.


Something like that would be great. It'd be pretty tough to track though to get a percentage. You've got multiple gaming forums they could post on and you would have to search around to figure who posted it first. Kudos to whoever has the time to do all that.


----------



## mcmuffin

Lol, Mastery Level 4. I Suppose the most powerful human-ish psyker in the galaxy may have higher mastery than some grey knight librarian. This suggests that most of his powers will not be shooting attacks, which is good, i prefer uber buff powers, like re-rolls and special rules etc.

Hull points sound reasonable on vehicles like land raiders, where a single melta 20 point melta bearing guardsman can't end a land raider in one shot. This sounds great, might start on my thousand sons again.


----------



## Vhalyar

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, but as Grey Knights are _all_ Psykers, they needed some kind of differentiation mechanic.
> 
> Now we 'know' it's making a return across the board.
> 
> Midnight


True, though the Master Psyker rule already exists and could have been tweaked a tiny bit to achieve the same result rather than inventing a whole new system to do the same. Especially since no one in the GK codex goes above Mastery 2.


----------



## mcmuffin

Vhalyar said:


> True, though the Master Psyker rule already exists and could have been tweaked a tiny bit to achieve the same result rather than inventing a whole new system to do the same. Especially since no one in the GK codex goes above Mastery 2.


Librarians can go to mastery level 3


----------



## SilverTabby

Given GKs were written post final draft of the 6th ed rules, it's safe to assume levels are making a comeback. 

The drastic simplification of everything in 3rd Ed took those away, and made psykers pretty much a non-entity. Which was sad to see in armies based around the psyker, like Eldar, and armies that have huge bonuses against psykers built into their costs, like 'nids. *If* the balance is achieved with the new addition, I will be happy to see psychic levels back across the board. So long as level 4+ is *rare*, and you don't have to do what you did in 2nd (and in WHF), which was take a psyker or you lost.


----------



## Vhalyar

mcmuffin said:


> Librarians can go to mastery level 3


Ah, I stand corrected them. I was pretty sure they could only go from 1 to 2 at most.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> Given GKs were written post final draft of the 6th ed rules, it's safe to assume levels are making a comeback.


Assuming that's the case, then they've been sitting on 6th for over a year. Given how close that is to 8th, I'm actually more worried about the quality of the thing - GW's never been known for watertight rules, in anything.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Seems the floodgates are finally opening :crazy:



mcmuffin said:


> Hull points sound reasonable on vehicles like land raiders, where a single melta 20 point melta bearing guardsman can't end a land raider in one shot. This sounds great, might start on my thousand sons again.


6E Hull points; I dont really see the point other than to make vehicles easier to destroy, the way the rumour describes it 3 shaken results will destroy a Rhino but it can still be destroyed as normal. What this means is that your Land Raider will be even easier to destroy than before, especially by haywire weapons. That 20pt guardsman can still shoot, pen and score a wrecked or explodes result but a shaken takes a hullpoint.
Unless Landraiders have like 10 hull points or such I dont see the point, basically a Harbinger of Storm with his Voltaic Staff (Assault 4, Haywire) has:
Hits: 3.333
Glancing Hits: 2.222
Penetration Hits: 0.556
Glancing Chance: 66.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%

This gives you a very high chance to score 3 glances, statistically you should get 2.2 glances with a very high chance to get 3. Heck if he is with a group of gauss wielding dudes then you are pretty much guaranteed to destroy a rhino by simply glancing it.
In 5E you mostly want Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised depending on if the vehicle is a transport or weapons platform.
In 6E (if the current vehicle damage chart is the same) then you want only Weapon Destroyed on transports and Immobilised on weapons platforms.

What about vehicles that ignore shaken results? There are a ton of those, some through natural defences and others through upgrades or psychic powers.

Spoiler tag so you dont have to see my crazy conclusions as it's speculation and not actual Chaos Space Marine rumours.



Vehicle Squadrons come to mind but I'm 100% certain that rule wont be in 6E (I believe you will still be able to take vehicles as "squadrons" but they all act independently).
If I was an ork I'd be called a Grubbla as I spend too much time thinking about stuff and this is how I've come to my conclusion.

Early rumours about 6E stated that every codex since Tyranids have been made with 6E in mind.
Rumour also said that the intent of 6E is for it to be the rulebook above all others, that it would be around for allot longer than previous editions.

Here is a list of every 5E codex release so far, if this rumour is true they have been working on 6E for over 2 years which sounds plausible to me though I have no idea how long it takes to create a new game edition.

Necrons November 2011
Sisters of Battle August/September 2011
Grey Knights April 2011
Dark Eldar November 2010
Blood Angels April 2010
Tyranids January 2010
Space Wolves October 2009
Imperial Guard May 2009
Space Marines October 2008

So back to Vehicle Squadrons.
To my knowledge there has only been 2 codicies in all of 5E that can take vehicles in squadrons, Space Marines with Land Speeder Squadrons and Imperial Guard with Sentinels, Hellhound Squadrons, Valkyrie/Vendetta, Leman Russ, Hydra and Ordinance Battery Squadrons.
Both these codicies were made before Tyranids and no codex after has had vehicle squadrons, if I am wrong please do correct me.

Sisters of Battle WD codex
Witch Hunters codex entry for the Penitent Engine reads:
Squadron: Penitent Engines are fielded in squadrons of 1 to 3 models.

Sisters of Battle WD codex entry reads:
Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Engine
Options: Include an additional two Penitent Engines: 85 points per model

I have emailed GW about this but have received no answer and it was not brought up in the FAQ.

Doesn't it just mean you field them as squadrons? NO IT DOES NOT!
Every single codex before this has read:
SM Land Speeder Squadron - Unit Composition: 1-3 Land Speeders
IG Scout/Armoured Sentinel Squadron - Composition: 1-3 Scout/Armoured Sentinels
IG Hellhound Squadrons - Composition: Vehicle sqadron composed of 1-3 of the following tanks, in any combination
IG Valkyrie/Vendetta - Composition: Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 Vendettas

My interpretation of the rule for Penitent Engines is that you can field 3 per Heavy Support slot and they all act independently. They are NOT fielded in squadrons, if they were they would have been listed as such. Then again the WD codex was of such poor quality that it's feasible they simply forgot about it like they did for allot of rules.

What about Monstrous Creatures?
Tyranids is the only 5E codex to include MCs in "squadrons" with the Carnifex Brood.
Composition: 1-3 Carnifexes

This was the last codex to field MCs in "squadrons" and if every codex since has been with 6E in mind this suggests that the Vehicle Squadron rule is indeed gone.

What about Necron Canoptek Spyders?
Good question, this is the first codex since Tyranids that would suggest the squadron rule is still there but if you look at the codex entry it says, just like the SoB WD codex:
Composition: 1 Canoptek Spyder
Options: May include up to two additional Canoptek Spyders

So my interpretation is that you can field up to 3 Canoptek Spyders per Heavy Support slot and they all act independently. They are NOT fielded in squadrons, if they were they would have been listed as such. Carnifex entry says 1-3 so why doesn't Canoptek Spyders? Because they are all fielded as individual models.
Again the FAQ did not bring this question to light.

If you have bothered to read this then what do you think? Am I insane (of course I am but...) to think the squadron rule is no more since it has not been used since the Tyranids codex and a 6E rumour stated that every codex since has been made with 6E in mind?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Interesting. 

Land Speeders in the Blood Angels Codex are exactly as in Space Marines however. Naturally, Woofs too, but BA are after Nids. Presumably. We only know the release dates, not necessarily when the Codex itself was written. I have heard that DE were actually written for 4th, which would go a long way toward explaining the cost of Dark Lances.


----------



## Vhalyar

You're assuming that the vehicle damage table will stay the same. If GW's messing with a huge component of vehicle stats then they're most likely messing with the rest too.


----------



## TheKingElessar

True, but since it's unlikely there will be an inferior result to Shaken, I'm not sure it improves things in any massive way.


----------



## Azrell

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems the floodgates are finally opening :crazy:
> 
> 
> 
> 6E Hull points; I dont really see the point other than to make vehicles easier to destroy, the way the rumour describes it 3 shaken results will destroy a Rhino but it can still be destroyed as normal. What this means is that your Land Raider will be even easier to destroy than before, especially by haywire weapons. That 20pt guardsman can still shoot, pen and score a wrecked or explodes result but a shaken takes a hullpoint.
> Unless Landraiders have like 10 hull points or such I dont see the point, basically a Harbinger of Storm with his Voltaic Staff (Assault 4, Haywire) has:
> Hits: 3.333
> Glancing Hits: 2.222
> Penetration Hits: 0.556
> Glancing Chance: 66.67%
> Penetration Chance: 16.67%
> 
> This gives you a very high chance to score 3 glances, statistically you should get 2.2 glances with a very high chance to get 3. Heck if he is with a group of gauss wielding dudes then you are pretty much guaranteed to destroy a rhino by simply glancing it.
> In 5E you mostly want Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised depending on if the vehicle is a transport or weapons platform.
> In 6E (if the current vehicle damage chart is the same) then you want only Weapon Destroyed on transports and Immobilised on weapons platforms.
> 
> What about vehicles that ignore shaken results? There are a ton of those, some through natural defences and others through upgrades or psychic powers.
> 
> Spoiler tag so you dont have to see my crazy conclusions as it's speculation and not actual Chaos Space Marine rumours.
> 
> 
> 
> Vehicle Squadrons come to mind but I'm 100% certain that rule wont be in 6E (I believe you will still be able to take vehicles as "squadrons" but they all act independently).
> If I was an ork I'd be called a Grubbla as I spend too much time thinking about stuff and this is how I've come to my conclusion.
> 
> Early rumours about 6E stated that every codex since Tyranids have been made with 6E in mind.
> Rumour also said that the intent of 6E is for it to be the rulebook above all others, that it would be around for allot longer than previous editions.
> 
> Here is a list of every 5E codex release so far, if this rumour is true they have been working on 6E for over 2 years which sounds plausible to me though I have no idea how long it takes to create a new game edition.
> 
> Necrons November 2011
> Sisters of Battle August/September 2011
> Grey Knights April 2011
> Dark Eldar November 2010
> Blood Angels April 2010
> Tyranids January 2010
> Space Wolves October 2009
> Imperial Guard May 2009
> Space Marines October 2008
> 
> So back to Vehicle Squadrons.
> To my knowledge there has only been 2 codicies in all of 5E that can take vehicles in squadrons, Space Marines with Land Speeder Squadrons and Imperial Guard with Sentinels, Hellhound Squadrons, Valkyrie/Vendetta, Leman Russ, Hydra and Ordinance Battery Squadrons.
> Both these codicies were made before Tyranids and no codex after has had vehicle squadrons, if I am wrong please do correct me.
> 
> Sisters of Battle WD codex
> Witch Hunters codex entry for the Penitent Engine reads:
> Squadron: Penitent Engines are fielded in squadrons of 1 to 3 models.
> 
> Sisters of Battle WD codex entry reads:
> Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Engine
> Options: Include an additional two Penitent Engines: 85 points per model
> 
> I have emailed GW about this but have received no answer and it was not brought up in the FAQ.
> 
> Doesn't it just mean you field them as squadrons? NO IT DOES NOT!
> Every single codex before this has read:
> SM Land Speeder Squadron - Unit Composition: 1-3 Land Speeders
> IG Scout/Armoured Sentinel Squadron - Composition: 1-3 Scout/Armoured Sentinels
> IG Hellhound Squadrons - Composition: Vehicle sqadron composed of 1-3 of the following tanks, in any combination
> IG Valkyrie/Vendetta - Composition: Vehicle Squadron of 1-3 Vendettas
> 
> My interpretation of the rule for Penitent Engines is that you can field 3 per Heavy Support slot and they all act independently. They are NOT fielded in squadrons, if they were they would have been listed as such. Then again the WD codex was of such poor quality that it's feasible they simply forgot about it like they did for allot of rules.
> 
> What about Monstrous Creatures?
> Tyranids is the only 5E codex to include MCs in "squadrons" with the Carnifex Brood.
> Composition: 1-3 Carnifexes
> 
> This was the last codex to field MCs in "squadrons" and if every codex since has been with 6E in mind this suggests that the Vehicle Squadron rule is indeed gone.
> 
> What about Necron Canoptek Spyders?
> Good question, this is the first codex since Tyranids that would suggest the squadron rule is still there but if you look at the codex entry it says, just like the SoB WD codex:
> Composition: 1 Canoptek Spyder
> Options: May include up to two additional Canoptek Spyders
> 
> So my interpretation is that you can field up to 3 Canoptek Spyders per Heavy Support slot and they all act independently. They are NOT fielded in squadrons, if they were they would have been listed as such. Carnifex entry says 1-3 so why doesn't Canoptek Spyders? Because they are all fielded as individual models.
> Again the FAQ did not bring this question to light.
> 
> If you have bothered to read this then what do you think? Am I insane (of course I am but...) to think the squadron rule is no more since it has not been used since the Tyranids codex and a 6E rumour stated that every codex since has been made with 6E in mind?


So your interpretation of a codex entry that reads exactly like it would if they were a squad of troops is that the models would act independently? just because they are vehicles or MCs.

Different codices are written by diffident people, historically there have been some differences in how the same rule or unit structure is written.

If anything you keyed in on the right parts but your conclusions don't match the evidence. It looks more like vehicles and MCs are going to be in squads.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azrell said:


> So your interpretation of a codex entry that reads exactly like it would if they were a squad of troops is that the models would act independently? just because they are vehicles or MCs.


Yes, but only because previous entries have been listed as 1-3. Why aren't the new entries listed as 1-3? Why aren't the Penitent Engines listed as squadrons of 1-3 when that's the way it was listed in the WH codex? 
It wouldn't be that hard to add as that is the way it has been since squadrons were introduced into the game. Shitty quality of the WD the only reasonable explanation? Why isn't it brought up in the FAQs? Because it's not a valid question?



I think people are just used to deploying them as squadrons even though the unit entry doesn't say they are deployed as such and the squadron rule is the only rule regarding deploying multiple vehicles. There is no squadron rule for MCs.

I dont think this is a big issue as the only codex with this is the SoB WD codex but the quality of it was really abysmal, GW needs to hire some quality assurance personal as it's really not acceptable to sell us shitty quality codicies and rules that are meant to be used for 10 years when they leave so many questions on how to actually play the game.

The Necron codex is the first codex that uses this "new" method of writing unit entries, but why doesn't it simply say Composition 1-3 Canoptek Spyders?

To me all of this points to the Squadron Rule being gone in 6E.

I dont play the SoB WD dex any more as I think it's such an insult and I haven't fielded Canoptek Spyders yet. When and if I do I'd I'd state my case and field them as squadrons if my opponent objected, then again I'd never field Penitent Engines if I had to put them in squadrons as they are easy enough to kill as it is (2+ to destroy a PE with melta pen and as we all know melta are so "rare" in 5E) and too expensive for what you get. 


On the topic of Chaos Space Marines, do they or have they ever had a squadrons of vehicles? I'm looking forwards to reading the codex in regards to this, I'm 100% confident the squadron rule is gone from 6E or if it's there the units are simply deployed as a squadron (within 4" of each other) but after this act as independent vehicles.



Azrell said:


> If anything you keyed in on the right parts but your conclusions don't match the evidence. It looks more like vehicles and MCs are going to be in squads.


Please do explain how you come to this conclusion? You mean that perhaps you will be able to field 3 rhinos in a squadron? With the current rules that would be retarded (in my opinion) but if they simply remove the destroyed on immobilised or that an immobilised model simply detaches from the squadron I could see it used.


----------



## Dawnstar

MadCowCrazy said:


> On the topic of Chaos Space Marines, do they or have they ever had a squadrons of vehicles?


I can't speak for the previous codex's, but the current codex has no mention of squadrons whatsoever.


----------



## slaaneshy

Is there anyway to seperate the 6th edition rumours from this thread and keep it about chaos - it is becoming very jumbled - mods - any chance???


----------



## MetalHandkerchief

bitsandkits said:


> 3 books makes no sense, it should be either be two or four, two would make the most sense as it would be similar to the old realm of chaos books, either way i cant see three books.


It makes lots of sense. Nurgle+Slaanesh put together almost sells as much as Khorne or Tzeentch do alone.


----------



## TheKingElessar

MetalHandkerchief said:


> It makes lots of sense. Nurgle+Slaanesh put together almost sells as much as Khorne or Tzeentch do alone.


This confuses the hell out of me. I know MANY players with a bunch of Death Guard, but none with a sizeable number of TSons, cos the model is ass, and the unit is even worse...


----------



## mcmuffin

Nurgle and khorne get all the love, i want kick ass psychic powers and rules for ahriman and the thousand sons, as well as some decent models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

slaaneshy said:


> Is there anyway to seperate the 6th edition rumours from this thread and keep it about chaos - it is becoming very jumbled - mods - any chance???


Sorry for dragging the thread a bit off topic, problem is when chaos rumours mix with 6E rumours like hull points etc.
I put my none chaos rumours in spoilers so you didn't have to read it unless you wanted to.


----------



## LukeValantine

Regardless of what happens it should be one hell of a ride.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheKingElessar said:


> Assuming that's the case, then they've been sitting on 6th for over a year. Given how close that is to 8th, I'm actually more worried about the quality of the thing - GW's never been known for watertight rules, in anything.


Any major game release is worked on for close to two years, and rules are finalised about 6 months before the release window. Colour section takes about 1 - 2 months after, white dwarf articles for the first edition done 3 months before. So GKs were finished just before 6th ed was in final draft. Necrons were written with the rules in hand. Chaos will have been written with a fully completed copy of the book. 

Also, the Sisters WDDex was written in the same vein. Everything that wouldn't work in 6th was removed, and what was left was made compatible in the short term.

This is why I can confidently say there will mastery levels in the rulebook. Changes will not be so drastic that these codeces are rendered unusable. And why these two codeces will have FAQs ready and waiting to go out on the day of release to tweak things that had to be included to make them work in 5th.

Sorry for being a little off topic, but it is something that should increase confidence the new chaos dex is fully 6th compatible :wink:


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> What is it with people thinking I somehow speak for GW? I just know what I'm talking about regarding the Studio :wink:


Now that you mention it, I don't actually know...


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> Any major game release is worked on for close to two years, and rules are finalised about 6 months before the release window. Colour section takes about 1 - 2 months after, white dwarf articles for the first edition done 3 months before. So GKs were finished just before 6th ed was in final draft. Necrons were written with the rules in hand. Chaos will have been written with a fully completed copy of the book.


Yeah, but the thing is - GKs were (presumably) written 6 months before release themselves, surely. So, we go 6 months back from their release a year ago last month, and that means they were hitting final draft 18 months ago for 6th. So either it could have come out last year and they simply sat on it, or something's wrong there.


----------



## Chaosftw

So I have finally read through all 33 pages and I certainly agree there is a lot of wishful thinking in the original post by the sounds of things. I also agree with the fact that Chaos needed the new overhaul so there being a lot of toys being accessible is certainly not too far fetched.

As for the upgrade sprue I think it would be nice to see these but I too don't think GW would do that and personally hope they don't. Each mark is quite unique and to just have a static body and just change shoulders, and a few heads would be very depressing.

The book debate I think is pointless at this point the amount of combinations are endless. I personally would like to see one huge book with everything. Ya sure make it a little more expensive but the amount of flavour would far exceed the minimal price increase! I guess if I had to choose how they would break the three books I would probably say Black legion in one consisting of alpha, Iron, night lords, etc. The second book would consist of Nurgle and Slaneesh, and the last book would be Khorne and Tzeench

Love the posts though! ill keep lurking!
Chaosftw


----------



## MidnightSun

The whole 'may take an additional x units' has been around for ages, just not in squadrons; Space Marine Tactical Squad; 4 Space Marines, 1 Space Marine Sergeant. May take an additional 5 Space Marines. Ratling Squad; 3 Ratlings. May take an additional 7 Ratlings. 

I don't know why they didn't stick with the 4th edition wording - 5-20 Chaos Space Marines - but they've changed it.

Midnight


----------



## SoulGazer

MadCowCrazy said:


> What about Necron Canoptek Spyders?
> Good question, this is the first codex since Tyranids that would suggest the squadron rule is still there but if you look at the codex entry it says, just like the SoB WD codex:
> Composition: 1 Canoptek Spyder
> Options: May include up to two additional Canoptek Spyders
> 
> So my interpretation is that you can field up to 3 Canoptek Spyders per Heavy Support slot and they all act independently. They are NOT fielded in squadrons, if they were they would have been listed as such. Carnifex entry says 1-3 so why doesn't Canoptek Spyders? Because they are all fielded as individual models.
> Again the FAQ did not bring this question to light.


Huh... You know, if this is true, then the Gloom Prism only affecting targeted units within 3" wouldn't be that big of a deal. If you can spread them out as individual models, it would make a lot more sense. Sorry this is slightly off-topic, but it was an interesting point.


----------



## SilverTabby

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, but the thing is - GKs were (presumably) written 6 months before release themselves, surely. So, we go 6 months back from their release a year ago last month, and that means they were hitting final draft 18 months ago for 6th. So either it could have come out last year and they simply sat on it, or something's wrong there.


That long ago? Wow, time flies when there are babies in the house :wink:

So maybe not *final* draft for GKs, but all the markers are there it was written with the rules available. Even the names of units and how they are written (Character (infantry), etc) say "we had the rules in whatever scribbled form they were at the time". 

And my timelines are rough - they always did like to *try* and get things done in time on the writing side. It was production and the models side of it that held things up: painting couldn't happen til models came in, models ran over time, moulds and plastics were late, you know the drill...


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> That long ago? Wow, time flies when there are babies in the house :wink:


I know, I did a double-take when I realised myself...especially when I realised that BA have been out over 2 years... 

I certainly think they'd started it, but I'd like to point out that, in the eyes of Competitive Players (TM) no Codex 'written for x[future] Edition' has lasted in the Edition it was supposedly written in mind of. This isn't an attempt to blame them or anything, changes in design philosophy have an unfortunate tendency to come around at the same time (see current Chaos Space Marine and dark Angel Codexes for prime examples) - but the Beastmen aren't exactly top of the tree in WFB either.

I'm VERY wary of such claims when I read them, more so if an army I play. Fortunately, most rumours place CSM's new book as firmly IN 6th, not immediately before, because that didn't work out well for Chaos Daemons.


----------



## SilverTabby

Having played daemons, the thing that kills them is not having the CSM daemon deepstriking rules. You're forced to DS, but can't assault the turn you show up whereas the CSM ones can (which is why I really like the CSM daemons - I can add my own flavour to counter the rules 'genericness').

The actual units and rules work just fine in the games I've played. It's the above that kills. Admittedly, if they *could* DS and assault same turn, they'd be an unstoppable killing force that would win every game. So balance needs to be maintained somehow... And surviving that first turn is the balancing factor.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I think it'd work okay (though their lack of anti-tank would still be apparent) if the second wave simply came in on turn 2 as a collective, instead of resorting to normal rules.


----------



## experiment 626

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm VERY wary of such claims when I read them, more so if an army I play. Fortunately, most rumours place CSM's new book as firmly IN 6th, not immediately before, because that didn't work out well for Chaos Daemons.


Daemons were the complete clusterfeth of total suckage for their first 2 months before 5th came out actually... No running rules in the min/maxed edition ment template raped them silly.

Daemons can be downright terrifying in 5th. Transporthammer is a bit rough on the army, (Necron av13 spam or IG/SM's av14 spam being the cruncher), but the only reason it's gone back down the dumpers is because GK's exist now and have every concievible hard-counter plus the kitchen sink thrown in against Daemons...
'Fatecrusher' was a highly feared army, untill GK players learned to include interecptors in their lists.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Actually, I've pretty much tabled Daemons every time I've faced them, mostly with Eldar, who are older, and been out the whole of 5th just like Daemons. Marines also tend to laugh, and as for Wolves and Dark Eldar, they just love the ability to outshoot AND outfight lots of Daemon units.

Daemons lack of vehicles means anti-infantry is useful from the word go, unlike against so many armies, and their lack of anti-tank means that even AV10 can run rings around them, as long as you're not foolish enough to disembark.


----------



## Vhalyar

From BOLS:


> Ahriman is said to give D3 units Infiltrate in the new Chaos Marine codex (in addition to being a Mastery Level 4 Psyker.


If the rumor of specific SCs being the only way of make cult infantry into Troops is true, I really hope they don't tack a bunch of rules to said characters and jack up their point costs to stupid levels.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BOLS has a few rumours about cultists today
Source


BOLS said:


> Codex author is Phil Kelly
> Chaos Cultists are available in blob squads into the thirties...
> Certain Named Characters grant various USRs and other special rules to Cultists when selected.


----------



## mcmuffin

Phil kelly, writer of all the codices I play, and all the amazing codices of 5th ed: SW and DE, has written the new chaos marine book?


----------



## Vhalyar

That's good news, but I also remember a rumor saying that he's not the original writer; rather he was tasked with finishing it. In which case, his input may have been quite limited.


----------



## SilverTabby

Vhalyar, don't believe everything you hear :wink:


----------



## Vhalyar

Who said I did? :laugh:

I'm just reporting (or in this case remembering) anything that floats up.


----------



## mcmuffin

Phil gave us 4th ed nids (great book) SW(no words needed to describe its amazingosity) and DE(probably the best rounded codex in the history of 40k). I trust that if he had any substantial input, the book will be great


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Phill Kelly or Matt Ward has been rumoured to be working on the book, that rumour came out a few months before I created this thread so that's nothing new, but I guess if enough ppl say it to be true then it has to be


----------



## TheKingElessar

mcmuffin said:


> Phil gave us 4th ed nids (great book) SW(no words needed to describe its amazingosity) and DE(probably the best rounded codex in the history of 40k). I trust that if he had any substantial input, the book will be great


Guard is better than DE, but DE is fantastic, yes. 

On the other hand - he gave us the Eldar copy/paste job we have today, he gave us Orks, and Wolves have basically 14 unusable units (competitively speaking) out of 32, excluding Dedicated Transports.


----------



## SilverTabby

I am curious, which 14 are "unusable"? Marines tend to be good at most things, that's the point of them.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I am curious, which 14 are "unusable"? Marines tend to be good at most things, that's the point of them.


Sure, but these, either through being clearly inferior to rivals in the same spot, (eg Blood Claws) or simply being too expensive for their benefits (eg Ven Dreads, Lukas, Arjac) would be considered inefficient and therefore ignored. They are:

Ragnar, Ulrik, Wolf Priests, Arjac, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Blood Claws, Lukas, Swiftclaws, Sky Claws, Whirlwind, Vindicator, all 3 types of Land Raider.

Land Raiders are SO bad because the Wolf Guard Terminators simply cost so much*, and the things have lowered Transport capacity from their SM brethren. That, and of course the easy proliferation of Meltaguns, means that until they become 'Heavy' and get a Structure Point, they will suck, but Wolves ones suck harder than most

Wolf Priests don't benefit the army, they're a HeroHammer character, which is all very well and fine until a game where he does nothing. Biggest benefit you're likely to get is his Fearless onto a Scoring unit, but for that cost...Competing with the other HQs is rough on them too. Slots aren't the issue, but points certainly are.

Vindicators are worse for Wolves, because Wolves don't get the breadth of backfield support SMs and even BA get. Wolves by nature are a closer-up force, and so a Vindicator is counter-productive, scattering onto your own men is disastrous.

Venerables are just silly expensive. The Ven rule is pretty decent, and extra stats great - but being Venerable doesn't help against Melta weapons. Perhaps it should be - You may choose, once per turn, to turn a successful Penetrating Hit into a Glancing Hit instead (after rolling any saves.)

Swiftclaws and Skyclaws cost like regular Marines, but have WS/BS3. And compete with TWC, Fenrisian Wolves, and the ubiquitous Land Speeder. Just silly, these two.

* - Opportunity cost really, more than points (though they mount up too!) you have limited Elite Slots, and want a unit of Scouts to force the enemy's hand - if they have Wolves too, for instance, they can't leave their Fangs bunched but unsupported if you have Wolf Scouts on the prowl! Since Wolf Guard squad leaders is ideal to protect from Tank Shock, Fear of the Darkness, Psyker Battle Squads, and even I suppose Pinning (a terribly weak mechanic) as well as for adding punch, and fluff reasons...well, you are fairly constrained in your ability to emulate the SM ThunderPunch-style.

This, I should point out, is good. The Design Team have done a MARVELLOUS job of ensuring that each Marine book plays differently, if not necessarily radically so - some, but not all, skills are transferable, and trying to play the exact same army in every book will see a large discrepancy in quality of the list. As much as the internet likes to make out things are point-and-click for some armies, the reality is that better players (who tend to have better armies) tend to win against weaker ones irrespective of MOST constraints, as long as they use Codexes from the same era and design philosophy. Tyranids, by Cruddace, are an unfortunate aberration.


----------



## SilverTabby

That's more in-depth than I was expecting, thank you! :wink:


----------



## TheKingElessar

I actually tried to be as concise as possible...:laugh:

It's a topic I could (and have) speak about literally for hours.


----------



## experiment 626

TheKingElessar said:


> Guard is better than DE, but DE is fantastic, yes.
> 
> On the other hand - he gave us the Eldar copy/paste job we have today, he gave us Orks, and Wolves have basically 14 unusable units (competitively speaking) out of 32, excluding Dedicated Transports.


In Mr.Kelly's defense, the 4th ed Eldar books was almost entirely re-written on him when he went on a sabatical after first writing it.
It was while he was away that Jervis, in all his infinite wisdom, decided to impliment the now infamous "simplify it!" template that also ruined DA's & CSM's.

And you can't really say that SW's have 14 unusable units, as every freaking codex bar a couple GK options gets seriously condensed when you're looking for a 110% competitive effiency. Hell, most 'competitive tournament armies' tend to all follow 1 or 2 basic builds that might vary by only a couple upgrades!
Outside of going for the 'uber competitive list/s, SW's for example might only have 2 or 3 real terd units/options you'd honestly never take.
Heck, even the likes of Daemons who are an older book now only have 2 complete 'fail' options outside of a super competitive tourny build. (those being Beasts of Nurgle & Furies, who win the award for worst unit in the game...)


----------



## mcmuffin

TheKingElessar said:


> Guard is better than DE, but DE is fantastic, yes.


for every unit being pretty much equally usable (bar the court and mandrakes) and still being competitive, i think the DE codex trumps IG


----------



## TheKingElessar

experiment 626 said:


> In Mr.Kelly's defense, the 4th ed Eldar books was almost entirely re-written on him when he went on a sabatical after first writing it.
> It was while he was away that Jervis, in all his infinite wisdom, decided to impliment the now infamous "simplify it!" template that also ruined DA's & CSM's.
> 
> And you can't really say that SW's have 14 unusable units, as every freaking codex bar a couple GK options gets seriously condensed when you're looking for a 110% competitive effiency. Hell, most 'competitive tournament armies' tend to all follow 1 or 2 basic builds that might vary by only a couple upgrades!
> Outside of going for the 'uber competitive list/s, SW's for example might only have 2 or 3 real terd units/options you'd honestly never take.
> Heck, even the likes of Daemons who are an older book now only have 2 complete 'fail' options outside of a super competitive tourny build. (those being Beasts of Nurgle & Furies, who win the award for worst unit in the game...)


Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Phil Kelly. But I'm not the kind of fan who won't criticise freely. Wolves have a large proportion of genuine stinkers, most of those on my list are shit on their own merit, not because of the main rules, like Land Raiders. Daemons have a large swathe of truly "complete fail" options, but yes, all Codexes have some genuinely woeful units - to use your example of Grey Knights, Eversor, Culexus and Callidus Assassins come to mind straight away, followed by the Stormraven, their own Land Raiders...yeah, plenty.

Oh, and worst in the game? Chaos Spawn. Hands down. followed by Swooping Hawks. 

Oh, and Mcmuffin - the IG Codex allows greater variety of builds, and ways to play, even if it possibly has more dud units.


----------



## experiment 626

TheKingElessar said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Phil Kelly. But I'm not the kind of fan who won't criticise freely. Wolves have a large proportion of genuine stinkers, most of those on my list are shit on their own merit, not because of the main rules, like Land Raiders. Daemons have a large swathe of truly "complete fail" options, but yes, all Codexes have some genuinely woeful units - to use your example of Grey Knights, Eversor, Culexus and Callidus Assassins come to mind straight away, followed by the Stormraven, their own Land Raiders...yeah, plenty.


Again though, saying that things like Bloodclaws & land raiders are terds isn' 100% truth - they're simply out-preformed by other choices which makes them far less desirable, *especially in any kind of competitive list.*
15 Bloodclaws led by a Wolf Priest giving them prefered enemy: infantry is a terrifying unit against horde orks for example! If they get the charge, those greenies are simply a fine green paste.
Sure you'd never take that option to a tourny, but it's still a great unit to throw down in a one-off game. It's not always about playing the power-combos 24/7, for just fun 'beer & pretzels' games, a couple units of Bloodclaws & a Wolf Priest aren't going to be an auto-lose like the *real* terd units are.

I agree that SW's aren't his best work and there are a couple of huge glaring issues with the book though. (namely, the good stuff is blaitently too good to the point it's a 'no brainer' choice & transports are too cheap)




TheKingElessar said:


> Oh, and worst in the game? Chaos Spawn. Hands down. followed by Swooping Hawks.
> 
> Oh, and Mcmuffin - the IG Codex allows greater variety of builds, and ways to play, even if it possibly has more dud units.


Chaos Spawn lose out on calling themselves the worst unit because they can be gotten for free through a psychic power! (and at the expense of auto-killing an opposing model in the bargin!)
Swooping Hawks have a role to play, namely the infinite jump/grenade drop loop. Your opponent will never get to even shoot the buggers while they can drop S6 pie-plates at will.

Chaos Furies are a dedicated assault-only unit, with just a 5+ invuln, WS3/S4/T4/I3/A2, 'jump infantry' type, with no rending/power weapon/fist/anything to help them actually kill stuff, *and must always deepstrike into play every game!!!* 
All for the low-low price of a Grey Hunter!:headbutt:

Chaos Furies, welcome to the T2 Zombies of 40k!


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

The Space Pope, Aun'Va is way worse than Chaos Spawn and Furies. He costs a shitload of points AND makes your army worse. Furies are just a free KP, not army hampering. But I digress, we are getting off topic.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Bah, there are no new rumours to discuss, no point in staying on topic if it'd be circular. Space Pope is absolutely woeful, but he cannot be worse when the opponent can refuse to let you use him and handicap yourself that way.

Hawks cost 22 points for a Guardsman Veteran with a Jump Pack, and Carapace. Without Scoring, their ability to leave the field of play is worthless, and without the ability to damage vehicles with their Packs, that too is worthless.

Furies at least have S4 and I3, if THEY charge Orks, Orks are paste.


----------



## Vhalyar

Rumors? Sure.



Stickmonkey said:


> To feed some actual rumors in here.
> 
> Wave 1 in june is as bow has revealed. But i am expecting the de bomber before end of summer along with a tau and chaos sm flyer. The csm flyer is likely w the codex so the other two may have "something" with them.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Yay rumours. Well, having watched Beasts of War's video the other day, colour me unimpressed with Flyers...


----------



## Vhalyar

He previously mentioned that he was impressed by the model (of the CSM flyer). So now the question is, does he have good taste in model aesthetics or not? :laugh: Because I still remember some regular rumor poster saying that the Stormraven was beautiful, before any pictures of it had been released.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BoK came out with some 6E rumours yesterday, the most "interesting" one was that Allies are back, but this time based on some arbitrary rules that may or may not make sense.

For those of you who dont know there has been a mix of "Allies" rules throughout the life of 40k. The best examples would be the Assassins codex which basically just contained the Vindicare, Callidus, Culexus and Eversor assassins. Then in 3E we had Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters who contained rules on how to ally them with or into other armies.

There were some restrictions, if I'm not completely mistaken they were 2 Troops, 1 Elite and Fast attack but no Heavy Support, might have been 1HQ as well but I'm not 100% sure on that. Not sure if you could take Special Chars at all.

Might be a bit too early to discuss but if you could take 2 Troops, 1 Elite and or 1 Fast attack from the current Daemons codex into the current CSM codex is there anything that would be worth taking?
If you could take Special Chars I guess Epidemius would be a clear choice for a Nurgle army.

I'm not too familiar with the Daemon units but I guess Bloodcrushers or Seekers would be a good choice but are they better than CSM choices other than for fluff reasons?


----------



## Adramalech

mcmuffin said:


> Phil kelly, writer of all the codices I play, and all the amazing codices of 5th ed: SW and DE, has written the new chaos marine book?


fixed that for you.


----------



## Dawnstar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Might be a bit too early to discuss but if you could take 2 Troops, 1 Elite and or 1 Fast attack from the current Daemons codex into the current CSM codex is there anything that would be worth taking?


Assuming the Daemons would use the CSM deep-striking method, I'd take a unit of Daemonettes and Bloodletters for the Troops and possibly some Seekers, the fast Tzeentch unit with Meltabombs. Elites would be Bloodcrusher territory though


----------



## Vhalyar

Personally I think "Allies" will work like the Fantasy Trusted/Distrustful Allies system. In other words, you don't actually get to cherry pick units from other codices.

That would be utterly ridiculous since a Space Marine player would get access to C: SM, Dark Angel, Space Wolves, Black Templar, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard and Tau units while Tyranids get nothing. And no, it's not just "favouring" the Space Marines, it's entirely overshadowing an army to an extent they've never done before.

On the other hand, if it's like the Fantasy system then it makes perfect sense. Skaven are in the same position as the Tyranids: no one wants to hang around them and the rules reflect that without forever gimping them. Consider that the same set of rumors talks about incorporating a bunch of Fantasy systems and this seems much more likely than cross-codices.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Couldn't the same be said about the Dark Eldar? Eldar would be the only option I guess but dont they hate each other? Tau would be a big nono even if they did ally for a bit :crazy:
Slaves or prisoners would be one fluff reason, if they ever fail a morale check they'd flee towards your opponents table edge as they are trying to escape the horrors of the DE.

As for Tyranids I would see no problem with them allying with IG, there are 2 ways this could happen; Genestealer cults and mind probes. My friend has a Tyranid IG army, he put adrenal grands at the back of the heads of the soldiers and it does make sense.

Heck Necrons could be the same, Mindshackle scarabs could be a fluffy reason to ally with pretty much anyone.

Chaos could be similar with cults, you could have any SM codex and simply say they are about to fall to chaos, same with IG. The Inquisitorial section from the GK codex could also work with the fluff reason of it being a Radical Inquisitor.

Heck you could ally Inquisitors with any army in the game with the Radical excuse, this is something I'd love to do as my armies are all Ordo Sepulturum and having some Inquisitors in would be good.

Then again I could see tons of people suddenly having Vindicares and Death Cultists in their armies.

CSM with Death Cultists and Vindicares is something I think would become "standard" in tournament lists unless there is something better in your own codex.

I can see allot of problems with the Ally rules but my estimates is based on how it used to work. No restrictions would be the most balanced option but would make things a bit silly, then again the fluff is pretty ridiculous as it is already.

GKs allying with SoB for instance, if you fight a chaos daemons army you should kill 2D6 sisters from every unit to gain protection from chaos taint.... :crazy:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Hmm, was about to say Necron allied with anyone seems stupid but then again maybe you're right, the fluff supports just about anything if you're creative. I would agree that few limits would make the most sense. Maybe some character and slot limits. Calgar in an army with csm would be silly...

...or right 40k

Not sure I like the idea, like my armies the way they are. Might be nice to not have to decide which one to bring to a game though.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Couldn't the same be said about the Dark Eldar? Eldar would be the only option I guess but dont they hate each other? Tau would be a big nono even if they did ally for a bit :crazy:


Orks, for one! The Blood Axes are known to sell their services, and more generally both Chaos and both Eldars have made use of them in their plans :laugh:

But yeah, any alliance can be made to work, it just depends on how far GW wants to push it. And for the Tyranids, I was basing the comment on the rumor stating that they get the shaft.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> And for the Tyranids, I was basing the comment on the rumor stating that they get the shaft.


I know, I just dont agree with it as there are many ways you can ally them with other armies, heck even with SM would work. I mean for Tyranids to take SM allies rather than the other way around.

There is this audio drama where some SM are sent into a dormant Hive ship, a psyker merged with a dying hive tyrant and formed a symbiotic creature of sorts. I guess you could expand on this with pretty much anything, brain leech worms mindcontrolling their victims or whatever.

Necrons also have that dude that can take over vehicles so you could just state that the Necrons have hacked the AI of a vehicle.

I think it's easier to find reasons for Xenos to have other allies than Imperium having xeno allies. Then again Xeno races would benefit the most from this as most of them aren't as OP as Imperial dexes.


I could see an IG army with 2x30 Ork boy squads and a MEK with custom force field being a really good combo. Stay back and shoot having 4+ cover for your vehicles and once the opponent comes close you can charge in with the boys, attach a Lib with Quicksilver or whatever it is that gives them Initiative 10.

Chaos with IG would be good and fluffy, then again one of the latest CSM rumours said there will be rules for Renegade IG. If there are ally rules in the CSM dex does that mean they would be different from the ally rules in the BRB?


----------



## MidnightSun

Chaos and Necrons can work as I'm trying to convince some friends for an Apocalypse game - Octed Scrapcode makes anything possible.

Midnight


----------



## TheKingElessar

Eldar and Dark Eldar would be brought together to slay the Great Enemy, or sometimes Mon-Keigh...depends on the circumstances really, but possible.

As said a couple times, the fluff exists to support the game - you can make anything happen that you want, and no-one can legitimately say that it's totally wrong, though that doesn't stop people being tools.

That said, for me Allies are a thing best kept for Apocalypse - with half the Codexes being Imperial, it just isn't viable keeping the game even close to balanced.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some more 6E and Chaos rumours from Grant
Source


Grant said:


> Cheers gentlemen!
> I know all of these rumors sound bloody ridiculous but they may not be bad for the game at all. I have been chatting with the source for my documents, we both feel that based off of the csm codex that assaults off of consolidation will be back as well as possibly off the bloody deep strike. This is not only backed up by the fact that they are "nerfing" assault range, but also because of 2 special rules.
> 
> Mates say hello to bloody "snap fire" and the return of overwatch.
> 
> Snap fire - allows a unit to shoot at an attacking unit at bs 1 prior to being assaulted.
> 
> Also mates, since I'm posting I may as well add a snippet or two more to the firestorm...
> Rhino's have 3 hull points, Landraiders and the defiler have 4. Any damage chart result other than wrecked or explodes will take 1 hull point away.
> 
> HQ's can now challenge each other just like in fantasy. This must be accepted by opponent or is played normal. HQ that wins, wins the assault for his unit.
> 
> Chaos units that kill a unit get to roll on a chart for gifts from a chaos lord very similar to the power from pain rule that Phil gave to DE.
> 
> Thousand sons are still relentless and still have ap 3 bolters.
> 
> Cheers mates,
> Grant


----------



## TheKingElessar

> Chaos units that kill a unit get to roll on a chart for gifts from a chaos lord very similar to the power from pain rule that Phil gave to DE.


 Sounds more like Eye of the Gods from WFB...


----------



## Necrosis

Yup more people saying 40k will be like fantasy which makes me say more people saying BS. How reliable is Grant with rumors?
Edit: Snap fire with flamers sounds op!


----------



## Vhalyar

Necrosis said:


> How reliable is Grant with rumors?
> Edit: Snap fire with flamers sounds op!


I've never heard of him until he started posting rumors in the comments section of that particular blog.


----------



## GrizBe

I've never heard of Grant before these rumors, so I can't say if he has got any credibility or not.

That said, its from the Faeit212 blog... and they've got a very hit and miss reliability record. 

I'm inclined to call bull, simply because Overwatch and 'Snap fire' will benefit the 'stand and fire' type of army too greatly. Being pretty much able to shoot anything they moves when its not your turn seems completely OP'ed for 40k and would cause far too much inbalence.

Overwatch your heavy weapons... 'Oh look, his tanks out of cover' BLAMM!
Assault squad charges a bunch of necrons with Tesla carbines.... BLAMM! Assault troops gone. 

I'm saying their wrong on logical and balence grounds.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Overwatch: If you chose to not fire your weapons in your shooting phase the unit may enter overwatch. They may now shoot at any number of units that move within 12" of the unit in overwatch.

Snap Fire = REACTION FIRE (OPTIONAL) from Zone Mortalis
The confined spaces of a Zone Mortalis make for deadly, close range fire-fights, where a split second reaction may be enough to gun down an enemy rushing out from the darkness before death strikes you down. In order to represent this, this special rule allows units being assaulted a chance to fire their shooting weapons when they are assaulted — if they’re fast enough!

• Only units not already engaged in close combat may attempt reaction fire.
• Only pistol, assault and rapid fire weapons may be used for reaction fire attacks. Heavy weapons may only be used for reaction fire attacks if the model carrying them has the Relentless special rule.
• A unit may only make a single reaction fire attack against the first unit they are assaulted by in any given turn.
• A reaction fire attack is made after an assault is declared, but before assaulting models have moved. Casualties resulting from reaction fire may cause an assault to fail.

Making a Reaction Fire Attack: In order to make a reaction fire attack, the unit in question must first roll equal to or under its majority Initiative score on a D6. If successful it may fire its weapons at the assaulting enemy, just as it would in the Shooting phase but at -1 BS (minimum BS 1). Template weapons are used as normal if the Initiative test is successful.
A unit may not use the Counter Attack special rule if it has used reaction fire.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Wow, Snap Fire benefits Marines over most Xenos, what a surprise...


----------



## LukeValantine

My god these rumors are all over the place. If even 50% prove to be real the next edition of the CSM codex will something completely alien to most CSM players.


----------



## Katie Drake

LukeValantine said:


> My god these rumors are all over the place. If even 50% prove to be real the next edition of the CSM codex will something completely alien to most CSM players.


Chaos Kroot?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Are those Kroot that ate a Possessed and are now Daemonified?


----------



## Kreuger

LukeValantine said:


> My god these rumors are all over the place. If even 50% prove to be real the next edition of the CSM codex will something completely alien to most CSM players.


These rumors are getting curiouser and curiouser. 

But strangely, the game might be a lot more like it was back when I started in the early 90's. The game really doesn't need overwatch to return. Overwatch slowed the game down and was not nearly precise enough back in 2nd.

I'd like to see save modifiers back in 40k, but otherwise - it could be in a much worse place, rule-set wise.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

TheKingElessar said:


> Wow, Snap Fire benefits Marines over most Xenos, what a surprise...


I don't know about that. If the Snapfire rule is legit, how many people will think twice about assaulting an IG squad with 4 flamers in it? Granted IG is not Xenos, but still.

I wonder if Snapfire could be combined with Bladestorm for Dire Avengers....


----------



## TheKingElessar

It can't be combined with Counter Attack, so unlikely. Also, why would an IG squad of over 5 models have 4 Flamers? And if it's that small, just shoot it. :laugh:


----------



## redmapa

If overwatch/snapfire does come in 6th ed then I can see Tau having some special rule to abuse it, like snap fire with +1BS instead of -1 or plasma guns becoming templates or something nasty..


----------



## Necrosis

redmapa said:


> If overwatch/snapfire does come in 6th ed then I can see Tau having some special rule to abuse it, like snap fire with +1BS instead of -1 or plasma guns becoming templates or something nasty..


Being I2 means they won't use that rule often.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Necrosis said:


> Being I2 means they won't use that rule often.


I find it funny how most new changes seems to benefit SM the most, especially things that has to do with stat tests. Probably because their statline is pretty much 4 all around.

I guess saying they benefit SM the most is unfair as Eldar and Dark Eldar both have better I than SM so that shooting assaulting units benefits them more, the difference is that when E or DE charge and get shot they die which SM gets a save. I'm comparing bolters to eldar ap weapons.

I can see Plague marines with flamers or heck even Flamers of Tzeentch being quite nasty with snap fire. Flamers would go from being a 100% assault if you can unit to "perhaps it'd be better to just shoot them".

Thousand sons could be quite nasty as well.


I guess the worst unit in the game to charge would be Burna Boys  Then again you'd shoot most of them down before though.


----------



## Tainerballs

i really think people shouldn't get there hopes up, it will be DA before chaos (hence the secret picture on the spines of WD, and we've had necrons release all ready, aswell as nids, 

tho my fingers are really really crossed,

hope there is a way of filding the other legions/war bands with out saying "counts as" as that will be rubbish


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tainerballs said:


> i really think people shouldn't get there hopes up, it will be DA before chaos (hence the secret picture on the spines of WD, and we've had necrons release all ready, aswell as nids,
> 
> tho my fingers are really really crossed,
> 
> hope there is a way of filding the other legions/war bands with out saying "counts as" as that will be rubbish


I actually dont agree with this. Lets say the next codex is DA, it should come in July-September, this would still leave 4+ months left of the year, 4 parts of the spine picture.

Dont these kinds of things usually come out once the picture is complete, it's there to build hype as to what it could be, once it has been released what would be the point on continuing the picture?

There is one way I could see it your way, that would be if it's a large diorama and every 6months it fully reveals another character of sorts. Lets say it's a DA standing next to a Chaos Lord, then again with this type of picture we should only have 1 part left of the first picture but we barely have half.

My prediction would be that as soon as the picture is complete we would get the DA codex, with my estimates I posted my other thread I judged that the picture would be complete around Dec-Jan. As we never have anything in Dec my guess would be first codex of 2013.

Tau has been up in the air every few months, first it was said to be the last 5E codex, then the first codex of 2013 and the latest that it's the September codex. Then again one rumour states that we will only see 1 codex this year which would be horrible unless they released flyers for all armies every other month, which is something that could actually happen.

I guess the spine picture could be a way to reward people who buy the WD and the codex, or more like an incentive to get people to buy every WD so they complete the picture. I vote a money grabbing scheme rather than anything hobby related or something done for the fans.

Problem is the Starter set though, how soon after Fantasy 8th did they get the new starter set? September has been said to be the starter set month, perhaps revealed at Games Day. You can't have a starter set with 1 new and 1 outdated codex, if there is only 1 more codex release this year that means the other starter race will have already been released.
With 5E it was Orks, and with 6E it would suggest the Necrons. Personally I'd love to see Sisters vs Necrons but that will not happen during my lifetime as SM has to be part of the starter set.

The voices in my head are all trying to get their garble said so I'll just stop here...


----------



## TheKingElessar

Orks weren't 'outdated' per se - but they were still a 4e Codex.


----------



## khrone forever

trying to charge a stuborn 50 man blobed IG squad with 5 AC in it would be fun with snap fire 

if it came off :biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

khrone forever said:


> trying to charge a stuborn 50 man blobed IG squad with 5 AC in it would be fun with snap fire
> 
> if it came off :biggrin:


But ACs are Heavy weapons and if snap fire is the same as in Zone Mortalis then you can only fire them if the model has the Relentless rule, it'd only be 1 shot per HW team, so 2.5 hits and on average 2.5 wounds which may result in 1 dead SM. The lasguns on the other hand, those could put a dent in the assaulting force.

Personally I think a rule like this might be the rebirth of template weapons, and if it's true all flamer weapons are fired like the Hellhound etc but 6" then rotate the template they will become ALLOT more desirable.


----------



## CPT Killjoy

Any news? It's been quiet for a bit....


----------



## TheKingElessar

Template weapons are still awesome, it's just that they're not Melta.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

CPT Killjoy said:


> Any news? It's been quiet for a bit....


No news for a very long time, last time we had any news was on Sunday.... you're right it's been quiet for a bit...


----------



## Adramalech

My philosophy, at this point is: Chaos is getting a dex in 6th, likely in autumn, and 6th is coming in summer. Let the pieces fall where they may.


----------



## CPT Killjoy

My bad, didn't see anything on Sunday.


----------



## Vhalyar

Courtesy of a source from Darnok:



> Alright, this is depressing. Really depressing. I thought this was a rumor forum. Well, I scoured the heck out of this grand ol' internet of ours back in December 2011, and I'm going to list off what I have heard is planned for the year of 2012 (surprisingly accurate for the first four months, almost five).
> 
> January: Vampire Counts army book (I made this list right when the first VC rumors started hitting, which is actually what made me want to consolidate the rumors that I put stock in)
> February: Vampire models
> March: Tyranid and Space Wolves model waves (I had heard a lof of Space Wolves, Nids and Necrons, and just did put stock in another full Necron wave yet)
> April: Empire army book
> May: Dark Angels or Chaos Codex (obviously I was misled about this one)
> June: Necron wave (off a month, but my May guess probably won't fall into June, because I don't see them releasing a 40K codex a month before 6th ed; so what's coming in June? Fantasy models)
> July: 40K 6th ed
> August: 40K model wave
> September: Warriors of Chaos book
> October: Empire models and Dark Angels or Chaos codex - whichever wasn't released in May (well, the latest rumors - as of 3 months ago since the well is so dry - *has this as Chaos*)
> November: Hobbit!
> December Warriors of Chaos model wave and 40K model wave
> 
> So far, I've only been off by a month for one of the releases. And I'm looking forward to my friends and all the other naysayers eating their words when they find out I've been right about the rest of the year.


----------



## SilverTabby

experiment 626 said:


> In Mr.Kelly's defense, the 4th ed Eldar books was almost entirely re-written on him when he went on a sabatical after first writing it.
> It was while he was away that Jervis, in all his infinite wisdom, decided to impliment the now infamous "simplify it!" template that also ruined DA's & CSM's.


I remember when this happened. A lot of us got to see the draft before and after it got changed, and fought tooth and nail over several things but got ignored. The main one was the changes to Guardians squads, that made them a terrible choice and removed all squad options. Phil was not impressed when he got back.

Also, if this 'snapfire' rule comes in, 'nids had better get an update dropping the costs of their units pretty damned quick, as they will suddenly become a completely untenable army to use. Get shot in your opponents turn *and* when you charge? Shooting is already the more efficient way of killing than combat, making combat worse is going to kill the codex. 

Chaos daemons will suffer too. A free round of shooting, then another when you finally get to assault?

On the Chaos Codex, I don't believe there has been the feared interference.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

I was so sad when my plasma grenades were stolen...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some more legion rumours, almost nothing new but a rumour is a rumour


warmaster said:


> i've been content till now to sit back and watch...but i think nows the time to chime in.concerning the soon coming chaos legions.....lets say "theoretically"(to protect my source)i have a close friend in game development.they have assured me that the new codex will be everything we debased chaos junkies have been hoping for and more!!!!!!
> 
> first,legions will be able to fight the way they are meant to, and with the way 6th editions % system will work,the armys will be even more legion specific playable.....
> 
> word bearers with all possessed as troops,or iron warrior armys with insane amounts of heavy weapons,all terminator black legion armys!!!!!also,dreadnaughts are not being replaced....they are being made even meaner and will have more weapon options-and NO RANDOM EFFECTS!!!!
> 
> there will be new characters...can you say little horus, honsou, argel tal, korpharon, the soul hunter...just to name a few.
> 
> existing characters will be made meaner and more playable(cost less).also,the new fluff is -as i was told-mind blowing,melt your brain down for a week!!!!
> 
> about 6th edition,i was told that it will blow your mind once you actually play it,the game is faster,bloodier and will turn you into a blood thirsty warlord who cant wait for his next fight!!!!!!
> 
> for those of you who are already complaining about the future with 6th edition i say this......wait and give it a chance,my source has told me that gw has been listning to us and that 90% of 6th edition was made with the input of veteran players
> 
> word has it all cult troops will be cheaper, and that the thousand sons magik abilities will make peoples heads spin!!!!basically chaos WILL BE THE BAD BOYS OF LEGEND.


Dont know how reliable this person is so I figured I'd point out all the new rumours in the quote.
New stuff in this post: Word Bearer with all Possessed Troops, SC Argel Tal, Korpharon and The Soul Hunter (unless it's suppose to be Korpharon, the Soul Hunter).
The rest has been posted before or is of no worth (like "thousand sons magik abilities will make peoples heads spin", this is opinion based and unless you can lift up units and spin them around has no real value as a rumour).


----------



## Necrosis

Sounds way to good to be true.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, no. Bullshit, I wouldn't be even a little surprised to learn that that everything that guy said was a lie. I don't believe a word of it. GW barely listens to input it gets from its play testers, the chances of them involving veteran players (that aren't employed by the company...) in the development process of writing a new edition is slim to none.


----------



## bobahoff

The bit about SC's being meaner and cheaper, what exactly can they do to abbadon to make him meaner? The guy is a CC monster as it is


----------



## mcmuffin

The "input of veteran players " has me very skeptical, though it could explain the vast amount of rumours we have.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I remember when this happened. A lot of us got to see the draft before and after it got changed, and fought tooth and nail over several things but got ignored. The main one was the changes to Guardians squads, that made them a terrible choice and removed all squad options. Phil was not impressed when he got back.


I wouldn't ever credit the theory, for instance, that Phil 'Strike Force' Kelly CHOSE to remove Black Guardians as an option.

As a dedicated Ulthwe player myself, nothing disappointed me more, in ANY Codex I can think of. At least Harlies were there I suppose.

As regards the new rumours - "input of veteran players" could easily be true, but is a worthless statement. Veteran =/= good, and actually the opposite is depressingly common. Getting the input of bad players is the kind of thing that changed the Starcannon from a feared-but-admittedly-undercosted option, to a worthless piece of shit.

GW needs to learn that the good players, who play as competitively as possible, play the game because we love the game AND the fluff - and making the game suit us better automagically suits the fluff players too, because the stuff they want to use regardless of on-table quality will be better than if balance isn't the prime concern of rules...


----------



## mcmuffin

TKE, you make such silly amounts of sense.


----------



## TheKingElessar

mcmuffin said:


> TKE, you make such silly amounts of sense.


And, sensible amounts of silly. Or so I think, anyway...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

To me allot of what was posted sounds like something a fanboy would say, mainly because of the lack of actual rumours. If you have seen a draft, played a game, have a copy of the rules or been told in detail what could be in a new edition/codex you would normally post something that is easy to understand and describes new or changed things (exception to this would be TastyTaste from BoK who likes to post riddled bundles very similar in layout to the rumours poster above). There are also too many spelling errors and exclamation marks everywhere, this to me indicates that the poster is very young and trying to get more attention by "exclaiming" how awesome it's going to be all based on "-as i was told-".

So to me the credibility of the above is questionable but I only question the new things being the Possessed as Troops and the new Special Characters. Everything else has been stated by "more reliable" sources or is based on what his interpretation of what he was told by someone else.

I could be wrong of course but take all new rumours posters at face value, I have allot of time to spend thinking about these things so..... :crazy:


----------



## Dawnstar

warmaster said:


> i've been content till now to sit back and watch...but i think nows the time to chime in.concerning the soon coming chaos legions.....lets say "theoretically"(to protect my source)i have a close friend in game development


So lets just say "theoretically" my toilet is made of solid gold and does my homework as well.

While it does seem very nice, it strikes me as wishlisting even more so than the previous rumours do. Since when have GW ever consulted with Veteran players to produce the next edition of their rule set?


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> You can't have a starter set with 1 new and 1 outdated codex, if there is only 1 more codex release this year that means the other starter race will have already been released.


I'm doing some research and it appears that there was only one codex in the year that 4th edition was released as well.

but in 5th and in 3rd there were 3+ codexes during the release year.

So I guess it just depends.

ALSO THOSE NEW RUMORS YOU FOUND. TOTAL BULLSHIT.

However, I can do nothing but admire your diligence. Keep up the good work.


----------



## LukeValantine

His diligence will be rewarded with the souls of virgins if his rumor mining paves the way for the return of the dark gods.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> His diligence will be rewarded with the souls of virgins if his rumor mining paves the way for the return of the dark gods.


I wish.... what is more likely to happen is me getting a stroke before the age of 35 from sitting too much in front of the computer searching blogs and forums for rumours...

Wont be going to Games Day UK this year, no point really as the devs aren't allowed to do interviews, they dont reveal anything new and the event in general has been complete shit these past 2 years I've gone there. Sure it only costs me about €200 for the complete trip but it feels like such a waste of money for what you actually get and I'm forced to pretty much stay awake for 3 days due to travelling times.


----------



## Necrosis

LukeValantine said:


> His diligence will be rewarded with the souls of virgins if his rumor mining paves the way for the return of the dark gods.


But will the virgins be females or males?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Necrosis said:


> But will the virgins be females or males?


Does it matter? You still have to train the virgins regardless.:spiteful:


----------



## Katie Drake

OIIIIIIO said:


> Does it matter? You still have to train the virgins regardless.:spiteful:


Awkwarrrrrrrrd. :shok:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Katie Drake said:


> Awkwarrrrrrrrd. :shok:


Or...is it?

:biggrin:




Adramalech said:


> I'm doing some research and it appears that there was only one codex in the year that 4th edition was released as well.
> 
> but in 5th and in 3rd there were 3+ codexes during the release year.
> 
> So I guess it just depends.


I'm hoping this is the case, if they release Chaos but leave DA hanging after getting into the paint set that would just seem odd. Not GW implausible but still odd. Possibly more so when I noticed some of the details on them are different colors and not because of the paint line, but again, might not mean a thing.

Either way a good chance I'm either getting or playing against a new codex, may not be happy if the latter is the only case, or I may have to look into running a different army...once I strike it rich.


----------



## SilverTabby

Really, Warmaster? Really? 

1) The guys in Games Dev don't talk like that. 
2) The guys in Games Dev like their jobs, and don't talk that openly about unreleased material, even to people who are friends and worked with them for close to a decade.
3) Posting like an overexcited 10year old doesn't help your credibility any...


----------



## bitsandkits

Do you remember the old days when a rumour came out with some leaked photos or was spotted at games day or the design team would let a nugget slip out and then after a few months we got the models and everyone was really cool about it. Good times!


----------



## Adramalech

OIIIIIIO said:


> Does it matter? You still have to train the virgins regardless.:spiteful:


HAWT


----------



## TheKingElessar

Adramalech said:


> HAWT


I've seen some odd tangents in my time, this really takes the cake...


----------



## nevynxxx

TheKingElessar said:


> I've seen some odd tangents in my time, this really takes the cake...


Hawt chocolate fudge cake? Don't mind if I do....


----------



## Allos

On the part of using Veterans giving input. Didn't they use Golden demon painters for the paints?


----------



## nevynxxx

I'd guess most of the staff count as "veteran gamers" if you wanted a conspiracy theory.....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Allos said:


> On the part of using Veterans giving input. Didn't they use Golden demon painters for the paints?


Dont they just tell the paint producer what they want and the producer makes it?

If I remember correctly the new paints got rumoured last autumn from some guy who worked at the paint factory, they had a scale from 1-50 with 50 being paints used to restore priceless works of art, the paint GW wanted was 42 on that scale.


Not sure exactly how GD painters would add their input? From GWs normal behaviour I'd guess they looked at the paint prices and thought "Which is the best paint I can get for as cheap as possible".


----------



## bitsandkits

Allos said:


> On the part of using Veterans giving input. Didn't they use Golden demon painters for the paints?


Yes they extracted "fluids" from them and put it in each pot,something extra for you to think about when your getting a point on your brush


----------



## TheKingElessar

bitsandkits said:


> Yes they extracted "fluids" from them and put it in each pot,something extra for you to think about when your getting a point on your brush


And as for what those bristles are from...uke:


----------



## Kreuger

TheKingElessar said:


> And as for what those bristles are from...uke:


Speaking of strange tangents . . . 

Are these brushes made to the specifications of Fabius Bile or Lucius the Eternal? We can only speculate on what exactly they would require. :shok:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Psyker Disciplines in 6E, sounds really interesting but I really hope there is none of that random spells there is in WFB
Source


> -There will be at least 4+ "Disciplines" of Psychic Powers in the game. (WFB has 8 lores)
> -Disciplines seem to fall roughly along the lines of the sects described in the novel "A Thousand Sons" as used by the Heresy-Era chapter.
> -Each Discipline will have a "Default" power and a set of others that you will roll for each game.
> -Number of rolls you get and the the exact details of which powers you end up with are said to be similar to WFB 8th's power selection mechanic.
> -Powers have a "Casting Cost" that is different from the mechanic used in WFB 8th.
> -Certain 6th Codices will add additional racial specific Disciplines.



If I recall correctly there were about 4-5 different schools of magic the Thousand Sons had with Magnus being able to know them all. Some could predict the future, one paralysed some space wolves coming at them, then there was destruction powers and something else. Don't remember all but I'm sure we got some people who've read the book or listened to the audio book who remembers better than me.


----------



## SGMAlice

There seems to be several mentions of WHFB in these rumours, comparisons or otherwise.

Are GW trying to make the two use similar mechanics for some obscure reason?
To make them easier to update in concert with each other or just out of laziness because they can't be bothered to maintain the uniqueness of each system.

Alice


----------



## TheKingElessar

I've heard they want them more similar because they actually think 8e WFB is a great game, instead of a crock of unbalanced shit. *Shrug*


----------



## SGMAlice

It was an observation, not a criticism. Having never played WHFB i cannot comment on how balanced it is compared to 40k.

Alice


----------



## Aramoro

SGMAlice said:


> It was an observation, not a criticism. Having never played WHFB i cannot comment on how balanced it is compared to 40k.
> 
> Alice


The current WHFB book is currently the best rulebook GW have ever written, flat out the best. So following that model for 40K would be the best idea really. 

WHFB has it's issues game balance wise but it's a much better game than 40K is right now.


----------



## CPT Killjoy

@MadCow: All of the ones you've listed were in Battle of the Fang. I haven't read 1k Sons, as I don't currently read the Heresy series (I'll get around to it one day, but there are just so many...). As I said, the four powers I saw fell into the catagories you have already listed. I guess you could say there was a fifth power, used by Magnus to transport himself to Fenris. I don't really see how that would be helpful in 40k games though, since we already have teleportation (Both in the form of Deepstriking, and in the Necrons case, more literally across the battle field). Speaking in broad terms of course, about 40k as a whole, not just CSM.


----------



## SGMAlice

Aramoro said:


> The current WHFB book is currently the best rulebook GW have ever written, flat out the best. So following that model for 40K would be the best idea really.
> 
> WHFB has it's issues game balance wise but it's a much better game than 40K is right now.


Fair enough.

But would following the model for WHFB not run the risk of losing a great deal of what makes 40k unique? For instance: The battles in 40k are on a smaller scale than in WHFB, which could possibly upset the mechanics.

Alice


----------



## TheKingElessar

Aramoro said:


> The current WHFB book is currently the best rulebook GW have ever written, flat out the best. So following that model for 40K would be the best idea really.
> 
> WHFB has it's issues game balance wise but it's a much better game than 40K is right now.


I usually respect your opinion, even when I disagree. This, is impossible to credit.

Please read this article: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/thoughts-on-randomness-re-6th-rumors.html


----------



## Aramoro

TheKingElessar said:


> I usually respect your opinion, even when I disagree. This, is impossible to credit.
> 
> Please read this article: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/thoughts-on-randomness-re-6th-rumors.html


There is no question that WHFB is the best rulebook they've ever written. It has an index. They're not perfect rules, but that doesn't stop them from being the best they've ever done.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Best Written =/= Best Rulebook - there's my disconnect. Anyway, Blood Bowl. :wink:


----------



## Adramalech

TheKingElessar said:


> I've seen some odd tangents in my time, this really takes the cake...


The hilarity of the conversation that blossomed before, during and after my last post paralyzed me for a few moments and it took me some time to recover enough to write a serious reply.

ANYHOW, in response to all these psyker rumors: 

WHFB sucks because magic is broken, or so I hear.
I would hate to see 40k suck because psychic powers are broken.

Psykers are already potent enough as it is.


----------



## Vhalyar

Adramalech said:


> WHFB sucks because magic is broken, or so I hear.
> I would hate to see 40k suck because psychic powers are broken.


It's mostly a few aspects of the magic system, like Irresistible Force, Purple Sun and the annoying Teclishammer, as far as I remember.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I REALLY hope there wont be random spell tables you get spells from in 40K, how shitty would that be for tyranids when you roll 18" synapse spell on your decked out hive tyrant.

You would end up with units as random and bad as Daemonhosts.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More from drbored on ether or not there will be new special chars n the codex


drbored said:


> Alright guys, here's a little tidbit from my source.
> Apparently, this ex-forgeworld employee is certain that Chaos will get new Special Characters.
> 
> They will not be in the first wave of releases, but will be in the Codex. He's suggested that most of the rumors we're seeing (no new Special Characters rumor) are based on the first wave of model releases, not on actual Codex content.


----------



## Kreuger

SGMAlice said:


> There seems to be several mentions of WHFB in these rumours, comparisons or otherwise.
> 
> Are GW trying to make the two use similar mechanics for some obscure reason?
> To make them easier to update in concert with each other or just out of laziness because they can't be bothered to maintain the uniqueness of each system.
> 
> Alice


Alice, both systems started out almost identical all those years ago. I believe GW realized they needed differentiation, a and have been revising back and forth ever since. I don't remember how long you've been playing but check out the shooting and close combat from second Ed for a striking juxtaposition.

The reason to bring the rule sets into alignment isn't obscure. I'm sure ease and consistency has something to do with it, but much more importantly its barrier to entry. If GW games are closely parallel then it improves the likely hood that gamers from one system will buy into the other. So GW simultaneously improve their profit and player base.

Besides its much easier to sell a warhammer player warhammer than a totally new customer.


----------



## SilverTabby

I believe in 8th ed, they've changed the 'to wound' table so anyone has a chance of wounding? I'm not sure how I feel about that potentially getting in: I *like* some things being too tough to hurt.

So long as psychics don't go back to the days of 2nd ed where if you didn't bring a psyker, you lost, I'll be happy. It's all about balance... 

Again, 2nd ed had random psychic powers and it wasn't as bad as all that. The decks were all tailored right, and there were few stinkers (but always one or two you *really* wanted).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Found this, these are the cults the Thousand Sons had/have

Corvidae - Precogs

Pyrae - Pyromancers

Pavoni - (Hard to describe) Fleshchangers, they could change their biology and give themselves armor, or claws, or gills, etc. They were the healers, and could change their physical appearances (They all were "beautiful".) IIRC one of them boils the blood of a Space Wolf.

Athanaeans - Telepathy

Raptora - Telekinesis They could make Kine shields for protection as well as using TK offensively.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Random powers would lead to wtf stuff like Eldrad, Tigurius, Njal, Ezekiel, Ahriman and Swarmlord getting all their available powers, while 'regular' variants of these would just be crappy and unreliable.


----------



## Adramalech

Vhalyar said:


> It's mostly a few aspects of the magic system, like Irresistible Force, Purple Sun and the annoying Teclishammer, as far as I remember.


That's enough to make it unpleasant or un-fun at times, though, right?


----------



## SilverTabby

Random spells combined with random power cards leads to annoyance. I remember having total power dealt to my opponent three turns in a row.

Random spells combined with a set casting mechanic leads to you needing to be flexible with your tactics, which is a good thing. Having guaranteed access to certain spells every game leads to power builds, which are boring as hell to play against. Having random factors is not only more interesting, it's more challenging too. 

I would personally like to see "you get one spell of choice, any others are random". Or the WHF last edition option, which was you always have the option to trade out one of your powers for the basic 'magic missile' power on your list.

Random does not automatically equal bad. How many people here actually take things like librarians? I have faced precisely one psyker in the last 3 years that wasn't Eldar. I only take psykers because I play 'nids. Most psykers are currently eclipsed by every other choice available. Gw has to do *something* to make them viable again, hopefully without making them "must haves" once more...


----------



## SilverTabby

Adramalech said:


> That's enough to make it unpleasant or un-fun at times, though, right?


Having my tyranid warriors hit by an all-missile launcher devastator squad is unpleasant and unfun too. Only happens occasionally, but still happens. 

Having my exorcist blown up by a lascannon on turn one is unpleasant and unfun. Happens though. 

Turning up for a game to find your opponent has tailored their list to specifically butcher your force and there's little you can do about it is unfun.

The chances of getting the right spell, the chance to cast it at the right target *and* getting irresistible force are slim. As a player, you need to be aware these things can happen and take them in good grace when they do. It's called sportsmanship :wink:


----------



## Stephen_Newman

SilverTabby said:


> Having my tyranid warriors hit by an all-missile launcher devastator squad is unpleasant and unfun too. Only happens occasionally, but still happens.
> 
> Having my exorcist blown up by a lascannon on turn one is unpleasant and unfun. Happens though.
> 
> Turning up for a game to find your opponent has tailored their list to specifically butcher your force and there's little you can do about it is unfun.
> 
> The chances of getting the right spell, the chance to cast it at the right target *and* getting irresistible force are slim. As a player, you need to be aware these things can happen and take them in good grace when they do. It's called sportsmanship :wink:


Too true

I think Fantasy is excellantly written in its current edition. Any change by 40K that makes it more similar is a right move in my opinion. Especially since 40K seems to just be listhammer these days with little else to go by on tactics.

I guess I prefer fantasy because it requires more thought to play. I can roll out my all plague Skaven list and still do reasonably well despite the fact its not really "competitive".


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> Random does not automatically equal bad. How many people here actually take things like librarians? I have faced precisely one psyker in the last 3 years that wasn't Eldar. I only take psykers because I play 'nids. Most psykers are currently eclipsed by every other choice available. Gw has to do *something* to make them viable again, hopefully without making them "must haves" once more...


No offence, but if you don't regularly play against Librarians, Rune Priests, and of course Grey Knights then you aren't playing a good or objectively competitive sample of games/armies.

Librarians are by FAR the stand-out HQ where available, with only the following genuinely competing for HQ slots in Marine (except BT and DA) books:
Master of the Forge (only if desiring 4+ Dreads)
Captain on Bike (only if taking Bike Troops)
Wolf Lord (only on Thunderwolf)
Logan/Dante (only for FoC manipulation)
Vulkan/Pedro (both debatable)
Mephiston/Njal (is a Libby anyway)

Really - for high-end Tournament play, there are no other optimal choices in SM, SW or BA books. Librarians are NOT eclipsed. *Chaplains *are eclipsed, as they provide no army-wide boosts, and can only do close combat.

Also, all-missile Devastators should be the only ones ever encountered in competitive play, with an occasional nod to a lonely Lascannon Long Fang or a solo Plasma Cannon BA Dev. Or, admittedly, Logan's Relentless Multi-Melta-toting pals...

Stephen - that 'Fantasy requires more thought' thing is just a fallacy perpetrated by people who don't have challenging enough 40k opponents. It is a nonsense to say that 40k is won against good players by army list alone any more than in WFB.

Finally, I link again an article that shows how random is ALWAYS bad for casual players MUCH more than those who play for and at tournaments...http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/thoughts-on-randomness-re-6th-rumors.html


----------



## Kreuger

I think that is certainly a salient and well written article. And in general I agree, because randomness (as opposed to probability) upsets players' expectations. It is hard to base an army on units with a high degree of randomness in their behavior or performance.

By contrast the randomness noted by one of the commenters in the previous specialist games was a part of the fun. Considering necromunda or gorka morka, they weren't part of a broad multi army system. Each force was a few pages in the rule book, and the fun really was setting all up and seeing how it played out. In this games the randomness was pervasive and here's the key thing: Expected!

Having new random effects every time one uses an army can be expected it it isn't shared by both armies, and it is much harder to anticipate.

So in other words, unless GW does a good job of sharing and balancing game randomness, and it isn't merely an increase in units with random attributes, then I totally agree with the author's thesis and yours, TKE.


----------



## SilverTabby

I never play tournaments. Can't stand the "must win" attitude I encountered before I stopped. It may well be in casual play that my opponents simply don't bother with psykers.

I also have yet to face a GK army in the field, but you can't really use them as an example when *the entire army are psykers*. That's on a par with 'nids, who have little choice but to take them. :wink:

To be fair, I view psychics as a sideline thing in 40k currently. I have played Sisters since 1997, and never *once* used their 5+ psychic save. Psykers simply aren't something I take into account when I play. I would like to see them become a more integral thing, if only so my Shadow in the Warp is worth the points I am forced to pay for it...


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I never play tournaments. Can't stand the "must win" attitude I encountered before I stopped. It may well be in casual play that my opponents simply don't bother with psykers.


We aren't all jerks, us tournament types.  hahahaha


----------



## Adramalech

SilverTabby said:


> Having my tyranid warriors hit by an all-missile launcher devastator squad is unpleasant and unfun too. Only happens occasionally, but still happens.
> 
> Having my exorcist blown up by a lascannon on turn one is unpleasant and unfun. Happens though.
> 
> Turning up for a game to find your opponent has tailored their list to specifically butcher your force and there's little you can do about it is unfun.
> 
> The chances of getting the right spell, the chance to cast it at the right target *and* getting irresistible force are slim. As a player, you need to be aware these things can happen and take them in good grace when they do. It's called sportsmanship :wink:


tailoring your list specifically to butcher someone else's is unsportsmanlike ._. and that's not really an aspect of actual gameplay, it's just a dick move.

all the other things I mentioned... those are all un-fun, for sure, but what I meant by the original question was "does magic make it one-sided often enough that you notice that people don't want to play"? or, "does it make the playerbase overall feel like they're having less fun"?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Adramalech said:


> all the other things I mentioned... those are all un-fun, for sure, but what I meant by the original question was "does magic make it one-sided often enough that you notice that people don't want to play"? or, "does it make the playerbase overall feel like they're having less fun"?


I played a game of 7e with a friend's Lizards vs his Warriors of Chaos. In 7e it was fairly different, choosing lore at deployment, not in your list, among other things BUT I literally thrashed him in my first ever game with Lizzies or vs WoC, simply because I had chosen a beastly Slann and lore of Metal.

Despite the changes to the system, I have seen nothing to indicate this isn't still eminently likely. If even one army gets totally annihilated by match-up in this fashion, the game balance is very wrong. There should never be a spell that virtually wins games alone, especially when it's randomly generated.

To list tailoring - I'd go further than Unsportsmanlike, and call it out-and-out cheating, actually.


----------



## Adramalech

TheKingElessar said:


> I played a game of 7e with a friend's Lizards vs his Warriors of Chaos. In 7e it was fairly different, choosing lore at deployment, not in your list, among other things BUT I literally thrashed him in my first ever game with Lizzies or vs WoC, simply because I had chosen a beastly Slann and lore of Metal.
> 
> Despite the changes to the system, I have seen nothing to indicate this isn't still eminently likely. If even one army gets totally annihilated by match-up in this fashion, the game balance is very wrong. There should never be a spell that virtually wins games alone, especially when it's randomly generated.
> 
> To list tailoring - I'd go further than Unsportsmanlike, and call it out-and-out cheating, actually.


See, that's what I'm getting at. One-sided gameplay is un-fun. Un-fun-ness is a symptom of an unbalanced game.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Adramalech said:


> See, that's what I'm getting at. One-sided gameplay is un-fun. Un-fun-ness is a symptom of an unbalanced game.


I dont think the edition is to blame all the time. 5E to me is almost perfect but could use some tweaks like wound allocation getting changed to something similar to what was in the leaked rulebook, more mission types and a few tweaks to make unused weapons more desirable.

I'm really looking forwards to 6E but I'm afraid GW might go overboard. On the subject of balance I think 99% of all unbalances are codex related rather than rulebook related. Every codex has units that are obviously inferior to everything else.

People point to Spawn, Aun'va etc, I'd nominate Daemonhosts to this list as well, they used to be really cool in the Daemonhunter dex but now they are just shit.


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont think the edition is to blame all the time. 5E to me is almost perfect but could use some tweaks like wound allocation getting changed to something similar to what was in the leaked rulebook, more mission types and a few tweaks to make unused weapons more desirable.
> 
> I'm really looking forwards to 6E but I'm afraid GW might go overboard. On the subject of balance I think 99% of all unbalances are codex related rather than rulebook related. Every codex has units that are obviously inferior to everything else.
> 
> People point to Spawn, Aun'va etc, I'd nominate Daemonhosts to this list as well, they used to be really cool in the Daemonhunter dex but now they are just shit.


Well the way the rulebook is written will change the way codexes that don't get a new-edition update play. So, while I agree that it isn't wholly to blame, there's no way the impact of a new edition is so insignificant.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> Random does not automatically equal bad. How many people here actually take things like librarians? I have faced precisely one psyker in the last 3 years that wasn't Eldar. I only take psykers because I play 'nids. Most psykers are currently eclipsed by every other choice available. Gw has to do *something* to make them viable again, hopefully without making them "must haves" once more...


I played against several, Ork ones, Chaos Space Marine ones, Marine ones as well. They are out there, casual play as well as tournaments. Maybe not the high end ones as much but ones I've gone to. Though I do think the DA librarians are close to pointless. The hood is still nice against nids, though the lack of power selection is terrible. Incidentally I only even tried them out after friend got a nid army started. Before that didn't really consider them, not for their powers that's for sure.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Given the breadth of powers available to Wolf and BA Libbies especially, I am astonished at the prevailing attitude towards them...


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> I never play tournaments. Can't stand the "must win" attitude I encountered before I stopped. It may well be in casual play that my opponents simply don't bother with psykers.
> 
> I also have yet to face a GK army in the field, but you can't really use them as an example when *the entire army are psykers*. That's on a par with 'nids, who have little choice but to take them. :wink:
> 
> To be fair, I view psychics as a sideline thing in 40k currently. I have played Sisters since 1997, and never *once* used their 5+ psychic save. Psykers simply aren't something I take into account when I play. I would like to see them become a more integral thing, if only so my Shadow in the Warp is worth the points I am forced to pay for it...


This is just a reflection on the environment you play in, not on the game as a whole. If you are not playing in a competitive environment, people are not compelled to take the best choices available, which, in the case of the three main marine books, are the psykers. But seeing as you play in a friendly environment, people will take whatever they like regardless of how good they are in the game. Psykers are very good in the current edition to the extent of being auto include in most armies. The fact that you haven't faced GK is also a reflection on your environment, because in the tournament scene GK account for roughly a third of all the armies.

Don't blame your personal experience on the game system, blame it on your playing group


----------



## SilverTabby

Here's a question on psykers in general: is the mechanic and system actually a system in itself, or are psykers' powers simply a character-specific special rule, like most other units or characters have?

What makes a marine psyker's power any different from any other stat-activated rule? The GK list seems to have dumped special rules in favour of unit-specific psychic powers. How is this different from, say, the Sisters' unit-specific needs-activation special rules?

In fantasy, the magic phase is (or at least was in 7th) an entirely seperate phase, with it's own system. In 40k, it's special things that activate in other phases. I'd like to see more of a return to "psychics are their own system" rather than the above described add-ons. Currently, psychics are just another gun or CC weapon, or stat-boost. Hammerhand gives you a statboost? Marvellous. And how is that different from combat drugs? Or adrenal glands?

I hope that's made my opinion a little clearer, I hate the lack of emphatic hand-waviness that forums allow.

@mcmuffin: I'm trying to expand my gaming group. I'd love to play a bigger range of opponents. Do you live locally to Nottingham? :wink:


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> Here's a question on psykers in general: is the mechanic and system actually a system in itself, or are psykers' powers simply a character-specific special rule, like most other units or characters have?
> 
> What makes a marine psyker's power any different from any other stat-activated rule? The GK list seems to have dumped special rules in favour of unit-specific psychic powers. How is this different from, say, the Sisters' unit-specific needs-activation special rules?
> 
> In fantasy, the magic phase is (or at least was in 7th) an entirely seperate phase, with it's own system. In 40k, it's special things that activate in other phases. I'd like to see more of a return to "psychics are their own system" rather than the above described add-ons. Currently, psychics are just another gun or CC weapon, or stat-boost. Hammerhand gives you a statboost? Marvellous. And how is that different from combat drugs? Or adrenal glands?
> 
> I hope that's made my opinion a little clearer, I hate the lack of emphatic hand-waviness that forums allow.
> 
> @mcmuffin: I'm trying to expand my gaming group. I'd love to play a bigger range of opponents. Do you live locally to Nottingham? :wink:


I actually wasn't clear what you meant until the Combat Drugs/Adrenal Glands question...well, as you know, most Psychic Powers (not Warlocks) are phase-specific acts chosen instead of another option - eg Psychic Shooting Attacks are used as though they were firing a weapon, with the precursor of passing a Psychic Test and overcoming any Psychic Defence that is in place (SitW, RoWarding, Psychic Hood/Runic Staff) before rolling to hit (usually) and following the process either as normal, or as modified by the Codex. After that, saves are or aren't allowed as described. Some powers are instead what I'd term Manual Trigger Powers (thanks, years of playing CCGs...) such as Shield of Sanguinius - this must be (consciously) activated at the start of the opponent's Shooting Phase, and again simply requires a Psychic Test to initiate, though it interrupts the normal turn sequence to activate...There is no separate mechanic, save that it utilises a special Characteristic Test with a penalty (Perils of the Warp) attached.

As a result (and I know you know, but the explanation is for a reason ) it is hard to call that a separate mechanic or system, when in WFB there is a dedicated Phase, which is the only time Magic can be used - and there is a Dice Pool, a more complex system of success and of negation, and a much more extensive and potentially fatal (and theoretically game-losing) system of penalising a specific type of failure.

So, I wouldn't say there was anything MASSIVELY different from the mechanical perspective about Psychic Powers - however, for simplicity's sake [*shudder* I'm agreeing with Jervis in a sense...] I see no reason why this isn't fine, perhaps preferable. 

That said - the Sisters' abilities are less powerful than the best Psychic Powers (or IG Orders) and are MUCH less reliable, due to the random nature of Faith Point generation. I'd have preferred, for instance, to give the player a Pool equal to the number of Faithful, Unbroken units on the table at the start of their turn - since there's no guarantee the power will work. That's an aside, of course. I'm just prone to tangential discourse...

Back to your comparisons - Combat Drugs, while randomly generated at the start of the game, carry little risk - you know they'll improve either your Combat Prowess, or your capacity to reach combat, and while random = non-optimal, just like with Possessed's abilities, Drugs actually have no impact on the fashion in which you use the units affected - which makes the rule less important and thus more of a negative than a positive, in the case of Possessed, where the results have poor internal balance. Combat Drugs have, off the top of my head, one dud result, and 5 decent ones. Irrespective of their 'power', Drugs are riskless once you begin the game - their effect is then known, and unable to be disrupted, dissolved, or denied by the opponent. Hammerhand, on the other, er...appendage, can be prevented by other abilities, or indeed made simply too risky to consider. In that respect, Hammerhand is inferior. Adrenal Glands, same idea.

To answer your other question on Muffin's behalf, I'm afraid he lives on the neighbouring isle, like myself. Indeed, he and I hope to cross swords (no ****) next weekend at a Tournament over here...


----------



## Kreuger

Now that you guys put it in those terms, I'd agree a distinct phase is probably preferable. I wouldn't want to see the fantasy level of power and lethality. I'm glad not taking a psycher isn't an autolose like is was in 2nd Ed. 



My sorcerer lord of nurgle only had to get plague wind off once or twice a game to completely F-up my enemy's army . . . It worked like this: on successful cast, target unit suffers a number of wounds equal to 3D6 minus their toughness with no saves possible. Every 3 full wounds inflicted create a plaguebearer. And keep in mind plaguebearers were far and away the best lesser daemon in the list.

In perhaps the best of all possible rules revisions the lethality of powers would remain the same, _But_ with a dedicated phase the triggering system and the surrounding rules could be more carefully managed and balanced.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Guess it's time for the yearly price rise again...


theDarkGeneral said:


> I want all Chaos players to know, that they should go ahead and buy whatever models from the current line they want, as none of it will become "obsolete", and the prices will be going up in June.


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> Guess it's time for the yearly price rise again...


I doubt that NONE of them will become obsolete.

and the price hike is just common sense... isn't it?


----------



## GrizBe

Price hike is the typical UK governments fault with its stupid economic policy that has dropped us back into recession officially again..... Condems suck and David 'man of the people' Cameron needs shooting. And Nick 'The Teaboy' Clegg needs to be made just a teaboy...

/rant


----------



## mcmuffin

TheKingElessar said:


> To answer your other question on Muffin's behalf, I'm afraid he lives on the neighbouring isle, like myself. Indeed, he and I hope to cross swords (no ****) next weekend at a Tournament over here...


awwwwww. haha, i kid.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

theDarkGeneral said:


> Local gaming store was told that it could be around 20%, and across the board! Though I hope/doubt it won't be everything, I can see GW once again hammering us (here in the US at least) once again.


----------



## khrone forever

for the love of everything i hope this isnt true


----------



## TheKingElessar

We all knew another price rise would happen this summer, surely? It happens EVERY year.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

How much have prices increased over the last 5 years? If it's 20% this year it should be around a 50% price rise right?


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> How much have prices increased over the last 5 years? If it's 20% this year it should be around a 50% price rise right?


I am going to flip a serious shit if my basic-ass CSMs cost me $47.50 USD


----------



## Kreuger

Adramalech said:


> I am going to flip a serious shit if my basic-ass CSMs cost me $47.50 USD


GW have been steadily raising prices since . . . forever. It shouldn't be a surprise.

So my recommendations to you are:

First, get a spatula you don't mind getting dirty 
And second, don't buy your *Basic-Ass CSMs* from GW.

*Basic-Ass CSMs* haven't changed all that drastically since _Rogue Trader_/_Realm of Chaos_ so don't buy from them. There is a very healthy secondary market for used miniatures and a very healthy market for similarly branded competitors, or find a way to get cheap marines and start converting and sculpting.

I personally prefer the secondary market and converting/sculpting route. Its a lot more cost effective, a lot more creatively rewarding, and my army never looks like anyone else's.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Chaos are in fact a *very *easy army to get second-hand.

Your other option, of course, is to simply stock-up...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Warhammer World Mission Pack is out, what it does contain is an interesting Alliance Matrix. Some really interesting alliance options in that list;
Tau with Dark Eldar for instance (After what the DE did to the Tau I doubt they'd every want to ally with the DE again, DE would love to ally with the Tau though so I guess this is why they can.
CSM are pretty much what you'd expect while SoB dont like any SM chapter at all (which makes sense because of all the shit they've had to take from the Spheeze Mehreenez).
Mission Pack


----------



## TheKingElessar

I do have to wonder if part of the reason Sisters can't ally is the perception of them with Melta/Flamers everywhere, and the boost they'd get from Vulkan He'Stan...


----------



## khrone forever

MadCowCrazy said:


> Warhammer World Mission Pack is out, what it does contain is an interesting Alliance Matrix. Some really interesting alliance options in that list;
> Tau with Dark Eldar for instance (After what the DE did to the Tau I doubt they'd every want to ally with the DE again, DE would love to ally with the Tau though so I guess this is why they can.
> CSM are pretty much what you'd expect while SoB dont like any SM chapter at all (which makes sense because of all the shit they've had to take from the Spheeze Mehreenez).
> Mission Pack


By order of the Inquisition there is nothing to see here...


----------



## SilverTabby

They may not like them, but Sisters *can* ally with Marines...


----------



## Adramalech

Kreuger said:


> GW have been steadily raising prices since . . . forever. It shouldn't be a surprise.
> 
> So my recommendations to you are:
> 
> First, get a spatula you don't mind getting dirty
> And second, don't buy your *Basic-Ass CSMs* from GW.
> 
> *Basic-Ass CSMs* haven't changed all that drastically since _Rogue Trader_/_Realm of Chaos_ so don't buy from them. There is a very healthy secondary market for used miniatures and a very healthy market for similarly branded competitors, or find a way to get cheap marines and start converting and sculpting.
> 
> I personally prefer the secondary market and converting/sculpting route. Its a lot more cost effective, a lot more creatively rewarding, and my army never looks like anyone else's.


I know, I know... ebay, amazon, etc etc. It's also super-easy to get bitz and sprues and even models from people who no longer collect CSMs

I just have my panties in a bunch over the _idea_ of forking over almost fifty bucks for a box of CSM. It's like "oh, I do declare! these prices are just offensive to my delicate southern sensibilities." *swoon*


----------



## SilverTabby

It's also a mission pack for a doubles tournament. Not much fun of you can only team up with your own codex, so *something* akin to allies must be in place. Looks like a fun system, is there mention of what each colour does in game anywhere?


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> Warhammer World Mission Pack is out, what it does contain is an interesting Alliance Matrix. Some really interesting alliance options in that list;
> Tau with Dark Eldar for instance (After what the DE did to the Tau I doubt they'd every want to ally with the DE again, DE would love to ally with the Tau though so I guess this is why they can.
> CSM are pretty much what you'd expect while SoB dont like any SM chapter at all (which makes sense because of all the shit they've had to take from the Spheeze Mehreenez).
> Mission Pack


DE with SoB? kinky <3


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I find it interesting that CSM seems "friendly" with Necrons and Tau. I would consider IG to be "Brothers in Arms" but that only applies to Renegade Guard so they had to make it Grudging Allies.

That Matrix is a bit flawed by design, as it wouldn't really play out the way it's listed.

For instance Tau and Dark Eldar, it should be listed as
Tau: Cannot Ally with Dark Eldar
Dark Eldar: Unholy Alliance with Tau

Reason is the Tau would never ally with the DE again because of what they did to them whilst the Dark Eldar would love to ally with the Tau again. But then you run into the dilemma that the Tau would rather die than be taken as allies to the DE but could be explained as slaves or fighting due to family being taken as ransom.

Tau consider CSM as Grudging Allies (same as IG) but Chaos Daemons as Unholy Alliance... Eldar and SM are Brothers in arms... What this means is that Eldar and SM are all love and kisses with a race that wouldn't mind forming an alliance with Chaos Space Marines and could consider forming an alliance with Daemons. I guess this explains why BT, BA, DA, GK and SW are Grudging Allies. Then again it would be a difficult choice for Tau to chose between Chaos Daemons and Sisters of Battle.....



Adramalech said:


> DE with SoB? kinky <3


SoB with DE I can sorta understand, SoB with Eldar on the other hand.... SoB with GKs should be Unholy Alliance. Sure, allying with Witches is just as likely as Tau...


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> SoB with DE I can sorta understand, SoB with Eldar on the other hand.... SoB with GKs should be Unholy Alliance. Sure, allying with Witches is just as likely as Tau...


I took what a SoB is (space nun dominatrix) and decided to draw it literally.

I'm debating whether or not I should put a ringed antenna on the top of her veil. c:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I guess it should be:
Sisters of Battle: Chaos Space Marines/Daemons= Slaanesh only


----------



## Firewolf

>> dont want to sound like im bitchin, but is this thread about CSM, or the new rules, or have the threads got mixed up?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Firewolf said:


> >> dont want to sound like im bitchin, but is this thread about CSM, or the new rules, or have the threads got mixed up?


It's hard to not talk about the new rules when the rumours say the new rules will be in the new CSM codex. As with all rumours it's better to have something to talk about than nothing at all. If you just want the rumours look at page 1, it contains everything you need to know.

Discussions go a bit off topic at times but they are generally about the subject at hand. Take the Alliance Matrix for instance, it contains no new rumours at all but it's an "official" document and does show what factions CSM are allowed to ally with. It does tie in more with 6E rumours than CSM rumours but I felt it was worth posting because it shows who CSM can ally with. If allies become a common thing in 6E people might want to know about the options, the problem is we simply dont know and lately scraping the 6E barrel for rumours is the best we get. Pretty much all rumours this month can be tied to 6E in some way.

Once 6E is out the rumours for the next codicies wont be so mixed, depending of course on how close to the 6E release they come out.


----------



## Adramalech

Firewolf said:


> >> dont want to sound like im bitchin, but is this thread about CSM, or the new rules, or have the threads got mixed up?


There's no new material to discuss, really.

We're just on a tangent about the way we think the alliance matrix for the doubles weekend thingamabob should work.

I'm sure the normal order will reassert itself as soon as some fresh rumors pop up. Madcow has been quite diligent in collecting them, and I can only admire his (her?) industry.


----------



## Kreuger

Adramalech, GW priced me out of basically everything except maybe the rules and my codex years ago. And even then I might be able to get those new at discount too.

When I started a dreadnought was 9.99 in a blister and a blister of 2 pewter marines was $3.99 or $4.99, and plastic space marines came in a box of 30 for $30.00. The quality has continually gotten better across the board, but so has the price. 

So I just have to do my own thing. *shrug*


----------



## Firewolf

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's hard to not talk about the new rules when the rumours say the new rules will be in the new CSM codex. As with all rumours it's better to have something to talk about than nothing at all. If you just want the rumours look at page 1, it contains everything you need to know.
> 
> Discussions go a bit off topic at times but they are generally about the subject at hand. Take the Alliance Matrix for instance, it contains no new rumours at all but it's an "official" document and does show what factions CSM are allowed to ally with. It does tie in more with 6E rumours than CSM rumours but I felt it was worth posting because it shows who CSM can ally with. If allies become a common thing in 6E people might want to know about the options, the problem is we simply dont know and lately scraping the 6E barrel for rumours is the best we get. Pretty much all rumours this month can be tied to 6E in some way.
> 
> Once 6E is out the rumours for the next codicies wont be so mixed, depending of course on how close to the 6E release they come out.


>>Cool:victory:


----------



## Adramalech

Kreuger said:


> Adramalech, GW priced me out of basically everything except maybe the rules and my codex years ago. And even then I might be able to get those new at discount too.
> 
> When I started a dreadnought was 9.99 in a blister and a blister of 2 pewter marines was $3.99 or $4.99, and plastic space marines came in a box of 30 for $30.00. The quality has continually gotten better across the board, but so has the price.
> 
> So I just have to do my own thing. *shrug*


I -sorta- know what you mean?

GW charges almost twice as much for its minis as Reaper does for theirs. I can see why you'd be miffed, but inflation alone would cause GW to charge ~$10-$15 for their blisters and ~$25-$35 for boxes of 10-15 anyway.

All they do these days is charge a $5-$7 premium for the GW brand.


----------



## fynn

TheKingElessar said:


> I do have to wonder if part of the reason Sisters can't ally is the perception of them with Melta/Flamers everywhere, and the boost they'd get from Vulkan He'Stan...


Just reading the rule pack, and it does say that allies can NOT use any wargear/special rules of there allie


----------



## Achaylus72

Adramalech said:


> I -sorta- know what you mean?
> 
> GW charges almost twice as much for its minis as Reaper does for theirs. I can see why you'd be miffed, but inflation alone would cause GW to charge ~$10-$15 for their blisters and ~$25-$35 for boxes of 10-15 anyway.
> 
> All they do these days is charge a $5-$7 premium for the GW brand.


I understand your view but i remember once where i could buy a box of 20 Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops for $40.00 AuD, but low and behold what did GW do, they split the number in half and maintained the same price, meaning that in one single blow the price of IG: Cadian Shock Troops rose by 100% overnight.

Just take a look at what GW did with their LotR series, cut in half their troops box from 24 per box (at a cost of $41.00 AuD) to 12 per box ($37.00 AuD) and in effect raised their prices by 75% meaning that from now on to get 24 troops in LotR the price has risen from $41.00 AuD to $74.00 AuD.

This deliberate price gouging is forcing out a lot of veterans who can not justify spending all that money,

GW's commercial structure is primarily targeted toward kids in the 10 to 12 year old range, or more to the point their parents, their structure is simple, to gouge out as much money from the pockets of the parents to a point where the parent can no longer afford their kids Plastic Crak addiction, meaning a very high burn out factor of those starting the game to becoming 10 year vets, it is almost a 99% burn out factor.

GW want's a high turnover of new customers not the retention of old customers.


----------



## Kreuger

Achaylus72 said:


> . . .
> 
> This deliberate price gouging is forcing out a lot of veterans who can not justify spending all that money, . . . meaning a very high burn out factor of those starting the game to becoming 10 year vets, it is almost a 99% burn out factor.
> 
> GW want's a high turnover of new customers not the retention of old customers.


While I suspect your statistics are spurious the idea seems accurate.

At this point I'm not terribly bitter about it, mostly I'm just amazed that anybody buys GW's product new if they can help it. Not all of GW's price increases appear to have the predatory slant that your noted changes did, but they're still price increases none the less. And I for one can't afford them.

It seems ultimately futile for GW anyway. Increasing prices constantly and at a pace that appears anecdotally anyway to out-strip inflation seems like they will eventually price themselves out of the market, or so skew their customer population that they go from being THE table top war game company to THE LUXURY table top gaming company. (Yes, I know it is a luxury already, but it isn't the Lamborghini of gaming.) And I don't think they'll be able to sustain the sales to make that work.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Kreuger said:


> While I suspect your statistics are spurious the idea seems accurate.


I believe that was one of the reasons Marines get so much love, to get the kids attention quickly. Many of which probably don't keep playing the game very long anyway out of price, or interest as kids and their ADHD...something...whatever I was just talking ab- bird.

GW Isn't exactly the only one that does it though, others do as well. I suspect partly because table top miniature game producing isn't entirely a gold mine. If GW releases a new DA codex I may have some things to buy, otherwise they have to get creative to keep the lights on.

Though I do think it would be nice if they had some sort of veteran player program. Sort of semi-lock the prices for a player but raise them for entering players. Don't think it'd go over well at brick and mortar stores though.


----------



## Achaylus72

Karyudo-DS said:


> I believe that was one of the reasons Marines get so much love, to get the kids attention quickly. Many of which probably don't keep playing the game very long anyway out of price, or interest as kids and their ADHD...something...whatever I was just talking ab- bird.
> 
> GW Isn't exactly the only one that does it though, others do as well. I suspect partly because table top miniature game producing isn't entirely a gold mine. If GW releases a new DA codex I may have some things to buy, otherwise they have to get creative to keep the lights on.
> 
> Though I do think it would be nice if they had some sort of veteran player program. Sort of semi-lock the prices for a player but raise them for entering players. Don't think it'd go over well at brick and mortar stores though.


That would be nice to have for us veterans, however it will be unfair to the newbies entering the market (or to the point the parents of Newbies). 

You can't justify a price scale on how many years you have been in the hobby


----------



## Achaylus72

Kreuger said:


> While I suspect your statistics are spurious the idea seems accurate.
> 
> At this point I'm not terribly bitter about it, mostly I'm just amazed that anybody buys GW's product new if they can help it. Not all of GW's price increases appear to have the predatory slant that your noted changes did, but they're still price increases none the less. And I for one can't afford them.
> 
> It seems ultimately futile for GW anyway. Increasing prices constantly and at a pace that appears anecdotally anyway to out-strip inflation seems like they will eventually price themselves out of the market, or so skew their customer population that they go from being THE table top war game company to THE LUXURY table top gaming company. (Yes, I know it is a luxury already, but it isn't the Lamborghini of gaming.) And I don't think they'll be able to sustain the sales to make that work.


I am just lucky that i have a way of dealing with the Australian prices.


----------



## TheKingElessar

This thread should try to avoid devolving into yet another price thread...Please bear in mind though that GW's profits are pretty stable (great in a recession) despite the increasing prices. The facts don't bear out this 'lolPlayersRaegquitEveryday' and to the extent i5t IS true, it's unimportant to GW's business.

When the recession's over they'll have more disposable income anyway and probably return to GW games.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

MadCowCrazy: Thread hit 50 pages so reset it as always, you can find the old thread in the Rumours Roundup section incase you missed something.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I missed this before


> Special Character box including:
> Horus Axiamand
> Honsou
> Unknown Raptor Lord (Night Lords?)
> Kharn the Betrayer
> Ahriman
> Typhus
> Lucius the Eternal


This seems insanely unlikely to me...SURELY it sells more to have them individually, rather than have people buy a box and trade/sell to friends?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

True, seems extremely unlikely, GW dont have henchmen boxes any more as you can sell for higher profit to sell them separately, but a rumour is a rumour.


----------



## Adramalech

Oh. I missed doombreed being a speciel character *u* I wonder if he has any immunity or resistance to psychic powers, being a daemon prince of khorne and all? <3


----------



## slaaneshy

Thanks for the tidy up, it was getting crazy!


----------



## Vhalyar

A lot of the wilder rumors come from theDarkGeneral, who seems to be yanking everyone's chain.


----------



## Adramalech

OP in the starter set thread said these would be in the starter set, according to one of his sources. The source is actually named in the other thread, I'm just too apathetic to copypasta it here. Besides, the starter set thread is worth taking a look at if you haven't seen it already.


> Sorcerer
> Chosen
> CSM squad
> Cultists
> Posessed
> Dreadnought


I, personally, would LOVE for this to be true.

EDIT: I do recall an earlier conversation in which it was discussed that eldar would make more sense than chaos, but I'll still leave this here for the benefit of newcomers.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Again, Beasts of War stated unequivocally that Cultists would NOT be in the Starter. While you should always season rumours to taste, the odds of them coming out with a categorical firm statement and being wrong is...unlikely...


----------



## Adramalech

TheKingElessar said:


> Again, Beasts of War stated unequivocally that Cultists would NOT be in the Starter. While you should always season rumours to taste, the odds of them coming out with a categorical firm statement and being wrong is...unlikely...


Not my seasoning. Quoted verbatum.

at the same time, though, it doesn't surprise me.

EDIT: if you'd like, I can retcon the cultists from my quote, or at least attach the BoW statement.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I don't see retconning as necessary - it's more my thinking that...well, if one source says all those things, and another (possibly more reliable) source says one of those is wrong and makes no comment on the rest, maybe the whole rumour was wrong?


----------



## Adramalech

TheKingElessar said:


> I don't see retconning as necessary - it's more my thinking that...well, if one source says all those things, and another (possibly more reliable) source says one of those is wrong and makes no comment on the rest, maybe the whole rumour was wrong?


I'd prefer to give the rest the benefit of the doubt. The rest is still at least possible, as evidence to the contrary can not be concretely inferred and as such is inconclusive.

unless, of course BoW--or any more reliable source than that found in the starter set thread--says otherwise or the product itself is released and contradicts the statements of the source cited in the starter set thread.


----------



## slaaneshy

Bindi Baji has put up a rumour in the 6th ed thread relating to the codex release - 6th ed is about 1 month away and the codex shortly after. He has been a reliable source on the forum, so I give it credence!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Agreed, he wouldn't post something definitive unless it were verifiable fact.


----------



## Dawnstar

For reference:


Bindi Baji said:


> even before the rumour blackout each new ruleset was only known due to rumours as GW have in recent history always tried to keep people buying the current rule book almost a month before change over - a thoroughly disgusting mindset,
> however the book is finished and just over a month away,
> with CSM not too far behind it



Makes me excited for the next few months in the hobby, though my wallet weeps in the corner


----------



## Pride365

Dawnstar said:


> For reference:
> 
> 
> Makes me excited for the next few months in the hobby, though my wallet weeps in the corner


 
Mine weeps with yours!!


----------



## Chaosftw

Pride365 said:


> Mine weeps with yours!!


LMAO we should make T-Shirts!!!

As for cultists in the box set... I find it highly unlikely but then again Zerkers are in the current starter box so who knows... frankly ether way it will be a worthwhile purchase. Converting is easy mode these days!

Chaosftw


----------



## Pride365

I totally plan on getting the new starter set as I am playing DA and Eldar and those are the 2 big rumors I have heard on here for the other side of the fence.


----------



## mcmuffin

According to waseer, one of the poster's who's name i can't be arsed to find out has said that Kharn gets an ability something like the Saga of the Warrior Born

I will be most pleased, as long as his model isn't Derp


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So what with the withdrawal of the 5th edition from online stores, do you think Chaos will be the first army to be released for 6th edition? I really want to expand my World Eaters but I get the feeling there's going to be loads of new models

I've never got the starter box before but I'm considering doing it this time if chaos is in it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Words_of_Truth said:


> So what with the withdrawal of the 5th edition from online stores, do you think Chaos will be the first army to be released for 6th edition? I really want to expand my World Eaters but I get the feeling there's going to be loads of new models
> 
> I've never got the starter box before but I'm considering doing it this time if chaos is in it.


Because 6E is out in July, would you like to buy a €50 book now only to have it worthless in 1 month?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

No I was't try to indicate that, I was only wondering whether Chaos will be the first army released for the new rule book.


----------



## TheKingElessar

If they aren't first, they'll be second... I would put my money (well, hypothetical money) on them being the next Codex released though.


----------



## Pride365

TheKingElessar said:


> If they aren't first, they'll be second... I would put my money (well, hypothetical money) on them being the next Codex released though.


So wish it was going to be DA tho.........:-(


----------



## mcmuffin

Pride365 said:


> So wish it was going to be DA tho.........:-(


Chaos deserve it more  I want my goddamn hardback codex


----------



## TheKingElessar

Really? Hardbacks will be a pita. I shouldn't have to suffer because some people don't know how to treat books.


----------



## mcmuffin

TheKingElessar said:


> Really? Hardbacks will be a pita. I shouldn't have to suffer because some people don't know how to treat books.


I'm a fan of a bit of firmness myself (giggity), the fantasy books are so lovely, full colour, pretty writing etc. As a student on a graphics course and a freelance designer, i would love a visually pleasing book. Plus when someone tries to take 20 man CSM squads with a lascannons you can beat their skull in with it.


----------



## Pride365

mcmuffin said:


> Chaos deserve it more  I want my goddamn hardback codex


How do Chaos deserve it more? they are still playable where all of my DA guys are way over priced compared to vanilla!


----------



## mcmuffin

Pride365 said:


> How do Chaos deserve it more? they are still playable where all of my DA guys are way over priced compared to vanilla!


Eh, chaos are shite, absolute asswank. DA can still be competitive with a mix build at 2k

Ezekiel, Belial, 4 Deathwing Squads, 1 tac squad, 4-6 typhoons, 3 dakka predators. Good solid list. Though chaos have oblits, everything else is pretty bad or overcosted. DA still have deathwing, ravenwing and doublewing, chaos have oblits, that is essentially it.


----------



## TheKingElessar

mcmuffin said:


> I'm a fan of a bit of firmness myself (giggity), the fantasy books are so lovely, full colour, pretty writing etc. As a student on a graphics course and a freelance designer, i would love a visually pleasing book. Plus when someone tries to take 20 man CSM squads with a lascannons you can beat their skull in with it.


Good point...


----------



## Rhaven357

Violence is rarely the answer......





but when it is, it's the only answer ;D


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Neither Chaos or DA deserve it more than Sisters of Battle. SoB may have the most recently updated but all their models except 1 tank is metal, they are over costed compared to other codicies with the exact same wargear, in the IG and GK codex a Eviscerator costs 15pts but in the SoB dex they are 25pts.

Saying one deserves it more than another is an invalid argument 99% of the time as there is usually another army not in the discussion that "deserves" it more. If anything all imperial codicies should be updated after the SoB codex and every non 5E xeno codex has been updated.
SoB, Tau, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Orks and then DA and BT.
If we are talking order of deserving it this is a more accurate list but GW WILL NEVER EVER have a release like this.


----------



## mcmuffin

I'm only stirring shit  I don't think any army deserves it more, but chaos will sell the most so :dunno:


----------



## Dawnstar

mcmuffin said:


> I don't think any army deserves it more, but chaos will sell the most so :dunno:


I'm not so sure on that either personally. I know that if Sister's had a full plastic or even a part plastic release, I would probably pick an army of them up. 

I'd be pretty certain they would sell very well though


----------



## mcmuffin

Dawnstar said:


> I'm not so sure on that either personally. I know that if Sister's had a full plastic or even a part plastic release, I would probably pick an army of them up.
> 
> I'd be pretty certain they would sell very well though


Well almost everyone i know has a chaos army as well as another army, i would probably wait to see the sisters rules first, because though i like their fluff, i think a lot of people prefer the idea of spiky evil dudes to nuns with guns.


----------



## Eleven

Dawnstar said:


> I'm not so sure on that either personally. I know that if Sister's had a full plastic or even a part plastic release, I would probably pick an army of them up.
> 
> I'd be pretty certain they would sell very well though


If you a proposing that sisters could be a bigger draw than chaos then you are out of your mind. Chaos is the one and only evil humans book and the sisters compete for a lot of good human spots and the female aspect is not enough, especially since they lack sex appeal which is what would draw kids into buying an all girl army in the first place. There are also very few female players out there. I know 2 out of hundreds of players and both of them are only interested in the hobby because of their husbands. 

Not to mention, the fact that chaos has
Demonic models and daemon engines gives them a type of model variety that can't be matched by lOyalist armies. Chaos will always be one of the most popular armies. Hell it's popular even though they butchered the codex.


----------



## Dawnstar

Eleven said:


> If you a proposing that sisters could be a bigger draw than chaos then you are out of your mind.


Part of the reason almost no-one plays them is probably linked to them having 1 plastic model in their _entire_ model range and the metal models being expensive for what you get (at least the current plastics are, for the most part, very high quality in detail). 

While I'm not saying that they would surpass Chaos in popularity, I'd bet an arm that their popularity and play use would rise substantially if they received a model line that was primarily plastic (and new codex really, but that's another issue they share with Chaos Marines)


----------



## Pride365

Eleven said:


> If you a proposing that sisters could be a bigger draw than chaos then you are out of your mind. Chaos is the one and only evil humans book and the sisters compete for a lot of good human spots and the female aspect is not enough, especially since they lack sex appeal which is what would draw kids into buying an all girl army in the first place. There are also very few female players out there. I know 2 out of hundreds of players and both of them are only interested in the hobby because of their husbands.
> 
> Not to mention, the fact that chaos has
> Demonic models and daemon engines gives them a type of model variety that can't be matched by lOyalist armies. Chaos will always be one of the most popular armies. Hell it's popular even though they butchered the codex.


I wouldn't play them ever even if they did get a new dex and models While I am a girl who wants to play an all girl army SoB just are not a good answer who wants to be a nun when you can be a super human? or some bad ass Xenos?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

If I had the money and they made them in plastic, I'd seriously contemplating playing them because I like uniqueness and although they may become a bit popular in the long run I don't think they'll be like the current high flyers.


----------



## TheKingElessar

mcmuffin said:


> Well almost everyone i know has a chaos army as well as another army, i would probably wait to see the sisters rules first, because though i like their fluff, i think a lot of people prefer the idea of spiky evil dudes to nuns with guns.


Even me. About 6k or so.


----------



## Mokuren

Pride365 said:


> who wants to be a nun when you can be a super human? or some bad ass Xenos?


Nuns with _guns_, and _power armour_. It's a very important difference.

Anyhow, I like SoB and wish I could like them even more, but there are two very extremely important factors that prevent me from making a further investment, in order of relevance:


Way too expensive. I mean when building a Death Korps of Krieg army entirely out of Forgeworld models appears comparable in cost, there's something wrong. Especially if you have zero alternatives.
The WDdex is, simply put, one of the most boring, dull and uninspiring things I have ever witnessed. SoB are now solidly placed as the army with the least options and variations in the entire Warhammer 40K universe, not even space marines are so same-y.
Our big problem is that we are in dire need of new models, because as it stands now sisters were _never_ meant to be a stand-alone army, they were just an excuse to throw a quirky, all-female something into the fray but in every codex before the WD version they were _never_ alone, they were always accompanied by arbites, ecclesiarchy, inquisition and the allies rule, which allowed you to field their codex without being forced to use a single actual SoB. Once they were singled-out in the WDdex, this huge problem of _not actually having the variety to qualify as an "army"_ is so blatant it's not even funny.


Chaos, on the other hand, I always liked because it had a huge versatility and variety of models: it almost felt as if I could field several different armies just with one codex, and has maintained this feeling even in 4e. Even if everything but Oblitspam is laughably underpowered.

But then again, even loyalist SM have a lot of variety: aside from infantry weapon choices, they have bikes, jump packs with special rules, terminator armour, land speeders, special land speeders, scouts, specialized CC weaponry and troops with special rules and ammunition, at least three non-character HQ types, all different and with optional customizable retinues, more wargear, cheaper wargear, more tanks, flyers, assault transports, ordnance weapons, dreadnoughts and drop pods. Oh, and I'm not taking into account all the different dedicated SM types with their super special snowflake rules.

*sigh*

SoB aside (their acronym is very fitting by the way), Chaos is more "deserving" of an update simply because they were built with the intention that, I believe, codex power creep was going to decrease and so they got everything more expensive and a lot of their options were deliberately dumbed down and culled. Needless to say, the opposite happened for everything else under the sun (loyalist SM first) and now the only thing that doesn't suck is Oblits. And I don't even like oblits.

I want to see Chaos going back to 3e, not for its absurd overpowered cheese but in terms of options, customization and connection with the fluff. Which is heresy, I know, but that's Chaos for you. Chaos used to be an army that not just rewarded but also sort of required creative conversion work, whereas the later trends seem to be to shun on anything that doesn't drive people to buy 25€ finecast models for heroes that are clearly superior to vanilla options in everything including point cost economy. I have a friend of mine who is refraining from choosing a colour scheme for the latter half of his CSM army because he hopes warband rules will get back in 6e Chaos, and I can't but share his feelings.

Speaking of heresy, girl marines. Though their return in canon is about as likely as a SoB update before 2018.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Where is the girl marines thing from?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

You can't have 40k without Chaos but you can have 40k without SoB which is why I think Chaos should be the first.


----------



## Mokuren

normtheunsavoury said:


> Where is the girl marines thing from?


Some third-party book from the Rogue Trader era. That picture is signed '88, which means it came out one year after Rogue Trader (1987). I think it predates 2e.

It's about as canon as squats and slaan, yet another proof that more crazy stuff from the '80s should be dug out and kicked into the current 40K canon.



Words_of_Truth said:


> You can't have 40k without Chaos but you can have 40k without SoB which is why I think Chaos should be the first.


I think it's the same reasoning for which SoB has never had any amount of solid support in its entire lifetime. Frankly I agree with Chaos and, well, since I like it a lot I'm also interested in seeing it pulled out from the pit of utter shame and brought back into the interesting world of reasonably-priced options, special rules and customizable warbands.

The problem with SoB is that it needs to be less than a burden that the writers keep pulling while groaning and complaining and the clear desire to drop it given the lack of any real attempt at creativity within its borders. SoB need a reboot not unlike that of Necrons: I hate Matt Ward's ridiculous fluff as much as anyone else, but the army turned from a 9-model mass of boredom with only 3 really viable choices to an army spawning unique vehicles, bikes, units and a lot of interesting options that differ them not just from other armies but also allow for a variety different and _almost_ equally viable army builds.

Ok, ok, Tomb Spyder/Scarab cheese omg why aren't you fielding 3 Spyders and going Scarabspawn omgomgomglolloser notwithstanding.


----------



## Pride365

Mokuren said:


> Nuns with _guns_, and _power armour_. It's a very important difference.
> 
> Anyhow, I like SoB and wish I could like them even more, but there are two very extremely important factors that prevent me from making a further investment, in order of relevance:
> 
> 
> Way too expensive. I mean when building a Death Korps of Krieg army entirely out of Forgeworld models appears comparable in cost, there's something wrong. Especially if you have zero alternatives.
> The WDdex is, simply put, one of the most boring, dull and uninspiring things I have ever witnessed. SoB are now solidly placed as the army with the least options and variations in the entire Warhammer 40K universe, not even space marines are so same-y.
> Our big problem is that we are in dire need of new models, because as it stands now sisters were _never_ meant to be a stand-alone army, they were just an excuse to throw a quirky, all-female something into the fray but in every codex before the WD version they were _never_ alone, they were always accompanied by arbites, ecclesiarchy, inquisition and the allies rule, which allowed you to field their codex without being forced to use a single actual SoB. Once they were singled-out in the WDdex, this huge problem of _not actually having the variety to qualify as an "army"_ is so blatant it's not even funny.
> 
> 
> Chaos, on the other hand, I always liked because it had a huge versatility and variety of models: it almost felt as if I could field several different armies just with one codex, and has maintained this feeling even in 4e. Even if everything but Oblitspam is laughably underpowered.
> 
> But then again, even loyalist SM have a lot of variety: aside from infantry weapon choices, they have bikes, jump packs with special rules, terminator armour, land speeders, special land speeders, scouts, specialized CC weaponry and troops with special rules and ammunition, at least three non-character HQ types, all different and with optional customizable retinues, more wargear, cheaper wargear, more tanks, flyers, assault transports, ordnance weapons, dreadnoughts and drop pods. Oh, and I'm not taking into account all the different dedicated SM types with their super special snowflake rules.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> SoB aside (their acronym is very fitting by the way), Chaos is more "deserving" of an update simply because they were built with the intention that, I believe, codex power creep was going to decrease and so they got everything more expensive and a lot of their options were deliberately dumbed down and culled. Needless to say, the opposite happened for everything else under the sun (loyalist SM first) and now the only thing that doesn't suck is Oblits. And I don't even like oblits.
> 
> I want to see Chaos going back to 3e, not for its absurd overpowered cheese but in terms of options, customization and connection with the fluff. Which is heresy, I know, but that's Chaos for you. Chaos used to be an army that not just rewarded but also sort of required creative conversion work, whereas the later trends seem to be to shun on anything that doesn't drive people to buy 25€ finecast models for heroes that are clearly superior to vanilla options in everything including point cost economy. I have a friend of mine who is refraining from choosing a colour scheme for the latter half of his CSM army because he hopes warband rules will get back in 6e Chaos, and I can't but share his feelings.
> 
> Speaking of heresy, girl marines. Though their return in canon is about as likely as a SoB update before 2018.


They are so not comparable in anyway you can have bigger and better guns with SM and full use of your power armor as well and as Xenos women fight all the time and it is ok howling banshees anyone? 

I am going to be seeing what comes out of the new chaos codex tried to start an army before but didn't really like them. Oblit models are cool looking though. 



normtheunsavoury said:


> Where is the girl marines thing from?


I am guessing it is possibly in reference to my SM army which is made up of all girls though I am not trying to get into that here as this isn't the place for it. but you are welcome to check out my 2 threads I have for them cause we all know Women SM are more heretical than chaos is any day of the week


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Pride365 said:


> I am guessing it is possibly in reference to my SM army which is made up of all girls though I am not trying to get into that here as this isn't the place for it. but you are welcome to check out my 2 threads I have for them cause we all know Women SM are more heretical than chaos is any day of the week


No, it was a reference to the link in his post.


----------



## Mokuren

Pride365 said:


> They are so not comparable in anyway you can have bigger and better guns with SM and full use of your power armor as well and as Xenos women fight all the time and it is ok howling banshees anyone?


Not just the xenos: the IG too has women, and even female-only regiments (at least according to fluff, because I have yet to see female commissar models and stuff).

I think the bigger problem is that SM have turned from their original "knights in space" feel to "ultra-manly testosterone-filled jocks with ridiculous pauldrons". If you compare the early 1e and 2e models, they didn't try so hard to look like stereotypical football players and their pauldrons weren't that ridiculous.

Then there's the issue that GW can't do women. No, I'm sorry, they just can't. They came close with 3e daemonettes and as soon as they realized they made models that had a little bit of femininity they _immediately_ scrapped them and put square-jawed transvestites in their place. Most DE wyches suffer from the same problem: hell, Lileth looks okay until you take her face into account.

Even SoB, which are admittedly GW's best of the best in terms of female models, are pretty ludicrous: aside from the very limited amount of poses and my hatred for boobplates, their faces are pretty manly; if it wasn't for the cut and the boobplates, they could very easily pass for men anyways. And if their chest pieces are any indication of their actual breast size, then, well...

I better stop here.



Pride365 said:


> I am guessing it is possibly in reference to my SM army which is made up of all girls though I am not trying to get into that here as this isn't the place for it. but you are welcome to check out my 2 threads I have for them cause we all know Women SM are more heretical than chaos is any day of the week


Colour me interested, I had started building a pretend girl marines fandex a bit of time ago as well, but I never really went that far.

Heretics gonna heresy.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Mokuren said:


> Not just the xenos: the IG too has women, and even female-only regiments (at least according to fluff, because I have yet to see female commissar models and stuff).
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that SM have turned from their original "knights in space" feel to "ultra-manly testosterone-filled jocks with ridiculous pauldrons". If you compare the early 1e and 2e models, they didn't try so hard to look like stereotypical football players and their pauldrons weren't that ridiculous.
> 
> Then there's the issue that GW can't do women. No, I'm sorry, they just can't. They came close with 3e daemonettes and as soon as they realized they made models that had a little bit of femininity they _immediately_ scrapped them and put square-jawed transvestites in their place. Most DE wyches suffer from the same problem: hell, Lileth looks okay until you take her face into account.
> 
> Even SoB, which are admittedly GW's best of the best in terms of female models, are pretty ludicrous: aside from the very limited amount of poses and my hatred for boobplates, their faces are pretty manly; if it wasn't for the cut and the boobplates, they could very easily pass for men anyways. And if their chest pieces are any indication of their actual breast size, then, well...
> 
> I better stop here.
> 
> 
> 
> Colour me interested, I had started building a pretend girl marines fandex a bit of time ago as well, but I never really went that far.
> 
> Heretics gonna heresy.


I think there was a forgeworld special edition female commissar.


----------



## Rhaven357

Girl space marines grrrrrrrrrr


----------



## Pride365

Rhaven357 said:


> Girl space marines grrrrrrrrrr


See? lol! almost makes me want to do a chaos legion that way.........it would be like super heresy..........


----------



## Adramalech

mcmuffin said:


> Eh, chaos are shite, absolute *asswank*. DA can still be competitive with a mix build at 2k
> 
> Ezekiel, Belial, 4 Deathwing Squads, 1 tac squad, 4-6 typhoons, 3 dakka predators. Good solid list. Though chaos have oblits, everything else is pretty bad or overcosted. DA still have deathwing, ravenwing and doublewing, chaos have oblits, that is essentially it.


Yay! I learned a new profanity today!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Adramalech said:


> Yay! I learned a new profanity today!


Are you familiar with cuntweasel (noun) ?


----------



## TheReverend

Adramalech said:


> Yay! I learned a new profanity today!


cumsponge.... I'll just throw that one in there :grin:


----------



## Kettu

For those who wonder about Female Space Marines.
Source: Rouge Trader supplementary material. Wish I had the name.
Ok, so it's not specifically 'Core RT' but in those days it was all canon and a fair-few other 3rd party items made it through to 2nd ed in the end also.

And there _is still_ those two unknown legions...

View attachment 959935272


View attachment 959935273


----------



## Words_of_Truth

You saying the reason the Emperor got rid of the lost Primarchs is that they where female and their cycles matched up and nearly tore the Imperium part?


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

Kettu said:


> Rouge Trader supplementary material. Wish I had the name.


It is from Challenge Magazine, Issue 36.


----------



## Pride365

Kettu said:


> For those who wonder about Female Space Marines.
> Source: Rouge Trader supplementary material. Wish I had the name.
> Ok, so it's not specifically 'Core RT' but in those days it was all canon and a fair-few other 3rd party items made it through to 2nd ed in the end also.
> 
> And there _is still_ those two unknown legions...
> 
> View attachment 959935272
> 
> 
> View attachment 959935273


Thank you! this is awesome!


----------



## Adramalech

TheKingElessar said:


> Are you familiar with cuntweasel (noun) ?


Yep. My day was just made.


----------



## Kettu

Words_of_Truth said:


> You saying the reason the Emperor got rid of the lost Primarchs is that they where female and their cycles matched up and nearly tore the Imperium part?


:angry: Menstrual jokes are never funny, Period!



Dave T Hobbit said:


> It is from Challenge Magazine, Issue 36.


Oh... Thank you.
Now, *Puts on Tricorne* Off to the Internet for perfectly legitimate business. :wink:


----------



## TheKingElessar

Kettu said:


> :angry: Menstrual jokes are never funny, Period!


Easily the funniest thing I've seen all day!


----------



## Necrosis

Kettu said:


> :angry: Menstrual jokes are never funny, Period!


I see what you did there!


----------



## Vhalyar

Here, some rumors to distract you for a split second from your entertainment:



theDarkGeneral said:


> According to my contacts, we're about 2 months away from a Chaos Invasion, so let the galaxy tremble!!!
> 
> I do want to apologize for not being able to go into more detail about my previous post of what the Imperials have and we don't but will eventually get. Some of the things i listed will be very similar but not exact. I keep having players all over asking me about what kind of Land Raider will the newer version be...i don't know the name but it supposedly can carry 15 or 16 infantry models.


----------



## SoulGazer

So would that be a Chaos codex or just the Chaos invasion plot advancement we've been hearing about in other rumors?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Let's hope it's a sponson-less Land Raider, with increased capacity, and massively lowered cost!


----------



## Bindi Baji

SoulGazer said:


> So would that be a Chaos codex or just the Chaos invasion plot advancement we've been hearing about in other rumors?


If it's a codex then it ties in with some bits I have been hearing


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Here, some rumors to distract you for a split second from your entertainment:


Was about to post the same quote, can't give you rep as I need to spread it around more :crazy:


----------



## Arcane

Mokuren said:


> Not just the xenos: the IG too has women, and even female-only regiments (at least according to fluff, because I have yet to see female commissar models and stuff).
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that SM have turned from their original "knights in space" feel to "ultra-manly testosterone-filled jocks with ridiculous pauldrons". If you compare the early 1e and 2e models, they didn't try so hard to look like stereotypical football players and their pauldrons weren't that ridiculous.
> 
> Then there's the issue that GW can't do women. No, I'm sorry, they just can't. They came close with 3e daemonettes and as soon as they realized they made models that had a little bit of femininity they _immediately_ scrapped them and put square-jawed transvestites in their place. Most DE wyches suffer from the same problem: hell, Lileth looks okay until you take her face into account.
> 
> Even SoB, which are admittedly GW's best of the best in terms of female models, are pretty ludicrous: aside from the very limited amount of poses and my hatred for boobplates, their faces are pretty manly; if it wasn't for the cut and the boobplates, they could very easily pass for men anyways. And if their chest pieces are any indication of their actual breast size, then, well...
> 
> I better stop here.
> 
> 
> 
> Colour me interested, I had started building a pretend girl marines fandex a bit of time ago as well, but I never really went that far.
> 
> Heretics gonna heresy.


Agreed. I loved the 3e daemonettes, then they came out with the new ones and I facepalmed. GW purposely destroyed one of the few iconic character designs they had in the game and replaced it with something no one wants to look twice at. icknose:

Have to admit, looking at my SoB army, they models look terrible and if it wasn't for the love of the fluff and artwork, it wouldn't please me one bit.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Was about to post the same quote, can't give you rep as I need to spread it around more :crazy:


Happy to help k:

And I'm pretty sure tDG was talking about the codex, not an event, since it came from the codex rumors thread and that's all he's been talking about for the most part.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Problem with tDG is that half the stuff he posts is his own wishlisting or speculation but every now and then he mentions something he has been told by his rumours source.
A rumour is a rumour though


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Problem with tDG is that half the stuff he posts is his own wishlisting or speculation but every now and then he mentions something he has been told by his rumours source.
> A rumour is a rumour though


Pretty much! Worst case scenario he invented everything but he'll get lynched to the point of never posting again, like a certain someone.

Until the codex is out though, have some more from him :grin:



theDarkGeneral said:


> You won't need special characters to unlock Legion Armies, however some of them will make certain unit(s) much better. The flexibility of taking a "regular" Chaos Lord, or Sorcerer, or Daemon Prince, OR Aspiring Champion(s) will still be there, which of course will be able to lead your Night Lords or World Eaters or Iron Warriors.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Whitehat over at Dakka posted a list debunking or confirming some of the popular rumours going about. He also added this comment.
2 boxes of plastic daemon troops? Plaguebearers and Nurglings?
Source


Whitehat said:


> June 30 is 6th Ed
> August is Daemons wave (plastic troops, last two boxes)
> DA Early next year
> Apart from CSM, no more codexes/Armybooks this year


----------



## Underground Heretic

Nurglings are also troops and are still metal. I'm really anticipating the release of 6th edition to see how it will effect Xenos, but good luck to CSM players.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If anything I would have thought Nurglings would be included with Plaguebearers similar to scarabs with necron warriors and Rippers with Gaunts and Tyranid Warriors.

If it's a separate release then it's 100% going to be finecast nurglings.


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> If anything I would have thought Nurglings would be included with Plaguebearers similar to scarabs with necron warriors and Rippers with Gaunts and Tyranid Warriors.
> 
> If it's a separate release then it's 100% going to be finecast nurglings.


I can only hope that the steady price hikes and corresponding loss of business don't kill GW before we see all-plastic model ranges *u*

Oh. Right. I suppose it makes more sense if I explain that I'm not really a fan of finecast. D;

it's so... brittle... and... flawed.


----------



## Vhalyar

From the Faeit 212 blog:



> *Codex Space Marine: Special Rules "Suffer the Witch" and More! *
> 
> This morning I have a Faeit 212 exclusive set of information for Chaos Space Marines. Yes, I said Chaos Space Marines, as I have been told directly the title is not Chaos Legions. Regardless of hurt feelings for no legions, there is a lot here for insight into 6th edition, with the names of some USR's and special rules found in the Chaos Space Marine codex.
> 
> Please remember that even solid rumors like this set are still rumors, all the way up until we get the codex in hand. Its very cool to get the names of some of these USR's, even though Grant doesn't precisely know what they do. So if someone else knows more about these special rules, please by all means lets get the conversation going.
> 
> _*via Grant on Codex Space Marines*
> *The book is called chaos space marines.
> *There are no legions. theDarkGeneral is wrong
> *I don't know if I mentioned it before but the "random terrain" is officially called "mysterious terrain"
> 
> *Also the anti psyker stuff in the book is a special rule called "suffer the witch". Every unit can negate a power on a 6 up but it can be buffed....yeah...can you say GK nerf?
> 
> *One is called ecstasy...which sounds weird but basically it allows the user to fire his weapon at his strength value. I can't remember what unit has it though!
> 
> *Some usr names in the codex are "strike down", "blind", and "un-weilding". Not sure what they do.
> 
> *There is a usr called "invisibility" that seems to have an affect on targeting a the unit and also effects assault._


Other than the fact that he keeps calling CSM 'Space Marines', the last time I checked Grant was a random poster in the blog comments. So yeah, the usual applies.


----------



## Eleven

I just wanted to make a comment to the people talking about the daemonettes, why complain about masculinity in a model that is supposed to express a fusion of the genders. It's kinda dumb to ridicule them for looking like transvestites when they are actually hermaphrodites. My main problem with them is the crab claw imagery persistent in the slanesh line. Trust me guys, there is nothing alluring about crabs.


----------



## SGMAlice

Something tells me this 'Grant' person is GW trying to knock off the Legion Rumours.
To what ends, can only be speculated at, but it seems a little convenient :dunno:

Alice


----------



## Bindi Baji

No idea about the rest of his rumours but the codex is 100% not chaos legions


----------



## SGMAlice

Bindi Baji said:


> No idea about the rest of his rumours but the codex is 100% not chaos legions


That seems pretty definitive considering all the rumours going around saying there will be atleast options for the Legions.

Alice


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Would be disappointed if the legions weren't clearly defined, maybe this guy is merely talking about the renegade chaos space marines which I red may be 1 out of 3 possible codices. The others being legions, and traitors like guard or something.


----------



## Vhalyar

Well, as theDarkGeneral just pointed out, he never said the book would be "all Chaos Legions, all the time":



> Just want to clarify something real quick, i never stated the new Chaos book would be specifically called "Chaos Legions" and i mentioned that here in this thread once or twice. I just started calling it Chaos Legions as the focus was to bring back some if not a lot of what Chaos players wanted/missed without being as restrictive as the "3.5" codex. As for new rules terminology, nope i wasn't told anything about them, hell they could've used the terminology in our discussions and i wouldn't have picked up on it! LMAO! As i've mentioned over and over again, i only hear things from playtest and concept design (as that's what i do for much smaller companies). Will everything i posted come to light? As i've always said they're just rumors i hear, so i doubt it all can be accurate. Should Chaos players be worried GW missed the mark (again) with Chaos? I seriously doubt it. I'm sure the majority of us will be quite happy, but there will always be those players you can't satisfy unless they get to write the Codex/Book themselves...
> 
> Cheers to 6th Edition being right around the corner and our Codex shortly after!!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

More rumours about the small Daemons wave said to be coming this August. Why 5 Plague Bearers in a box though? Why not 10 when all the others are 10? Meh, it's GW and they probably think they can make more money this way... it's not like they've never done it like this before...
Source


stickmonkey said:


> Plague bearers (5x box) Plastic. Priced as pink horrors
> Furies (5x box) plastic. Priced as de scourges
> Blue scribes (finecast)
> Herald of nurgle (finecast)
> Maybe a little surprise here too...
> Plastic GDs are done, rumored to have pieces to build named GD as variants ( though not expected til 2013)


Here are some of the previous rumors, so that we can see them all in one place.


Whitehat said:


> August is Daemons wave (plastic troops, last two boxes)
> Apart from CSM, no more codexes/Armybooks this year





reds8n said:


> I've heard talk about this wave possibly including something new... which presumably would have rules in WD ( or online ?) or somesuch.





Stickmonkey said:


> Hearing bits that aside from Plague Bearers, there may be new furies in the works. As well as seeing karanak and hounds of khorne moved to finecast soon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

theDarkGeneral and Stickmonkey have some more chaos rumours for us.


theDarkGeneral said:


> Along with Daemon Engines, and a broader spectrum of vehicles for Chaos! Next Summer I believe is when the new Greater Daemons will be done and ready for release! (along with new Codex/Book)





Stickmonkey said:


> Maybe a little surprise here too...
> Plastic GreaterDaemons are done, rumored to have pieces to build named Greater Daemons as variants ( though not expected til 2013)


----------



## SGMAlice

Broader Spectrum?

Intriguing! Rhino, Predator, Land Raider, Defiler... That's it.

So far only this mysterious Land Raider variant, which i think will be a Chaos Crusader, is known about. And as far as i know; Razorbacks, Land Speeders and the Land Raider variants are all post Heresy so Chaos wouldn't have them (Though what stops them from just taking wrecked/working ones from the Loyalists during or after battle a'la Orks is beyond me.)

I think i read somewhere about more Daemon Engines? I could be mistaken however.

Alice


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Also, what about Chapters that have turned traitor since the Heresy? Did they just get rid of their newer stuff?

Chapter Master: "Right lads, get all the cool stuff together, land speeders, that nice land raider and all the razor backs we're selling them for scrap!"

Marine: "But, you know they all still work and could be a tactical advantage?"

Chapter Master "Yes, I know, but since we went all chaosy we can't use them any more, I'm not sure why, I just can't remember what any of them do any more....

Oh, and make sure someone tells Dave the dreadnought that from now on he has to kill us as well as the enemy, it's a chaos thing apparently"

Marine: "Are you sure turning to Chaos was a good idea?"


----------



## SGMAlice

Dave the Dreadnought..... XD

There is that too. I'm just not sure how many have turned since.

Alice


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Well the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs are supposed to be a pretty big threat in the Maelstrom, they turned post Heresy along with a lot of other traitors listed in the current dex (which I don't have to hand so I can't remember names). There's even a listing for a chapter that specialises in deep striking using drop pods, not a single drop pod in the book though.


----------



## slaaneshy

Lol - Good old Dave! :laugh:


----------



## Adramalech

<3 I would LOVE plastic greater daemons.


----------



## whiplash308

The days of Chaos feel so close. I can almost taste it. 

IT'S SO SALTY.


----------



## lockeF

Oh, those silly traitor marines, they say the funniest things. Everyone always thinks chaos is about killing and hatred - but all the comical marines are chaos.


----------



## slaaneshy

lockeF said:


> Oh, those silly traitor marines, they say the funniest things. Everyone always thinks chaos is about killing and hatred - but all the comical marines are chaos.


You know it! Once, at band camp, Abaddon put a power claw up his....:wink:


----------



## mcmuffin

> via Grant
> 
> Lucious Eternal is a beast! Gets extra attacks from difference in WS just like lilith from DE.
> 
> The defiler is pretty damn good. It has a power called "daemon forge" which allows it to reroll all wound rolls and armor pen rolls in cc or while shooting.
> 
> Typhus unlocks plauge marines as troops and gives them feel no pain in his unit. This is pretty much known already on most rumor sites I believe.
> 
> Cover is definitely 5+. Again, not really news.


I suspect the FNP thing with typhus actually means he gives his unit FNP, such as a termie unit or whatnot, i doubt plagues will lose FNP when the whole fucking blood angel army gets it


----------



## whiplash308

Agreed. Honestly the current "cult" units are fine just the way they are. Maybe Noise/Rubric marines need a few tweaks, but everything else is just fine. Plagues better keep their FNP.


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> More rumours about the small Daemons wave said to be coming this August. Why 5 Plague Bearers in a box though? Why not 10 when all the others are 10? Meh, it's GW and they probably think they can make more money this way... it's not like they've never done it like this before...
> Source
> 
> Here are some of the previous rumors, so that we can see them all in one place.


the plague bearers will be ten in a box, they are a joint release with fantasy which is a minimum unit of ten, plus they are a core choice so they will match horrors,deamonettes and bloodletters.


----------



## mcmuffin

whiplash308 said:


> Agreed. Honestly the current "cult" units are fine just the way they are. Maybe Noise/Rubric marines need a few tweaks, but everything else is just fine. Plagues better keep their FNP.


Their rules are all fine, but all of them are overcosted.

Zerkers would need to get rending if they were to stay at 21pts per model, or at least an option for several models to get rending. as is they should only be about 18-20pts . 

Noise marines just need to have their sonic weapons included in their price for 18pts per model with the blastmaster coming down to a more reasonable price. 

Plague Marines should have a points reduction to about 20-21pts

Thousand sons should go down to about 20 with the sorcerer getting a second wound at 40pts. Either that or keep them the same price and make their saving throw invulnerable.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some clarifications to the above rumours



> Plague Marines have FNP you don't need Typhus, it's the Cultist that get FNP and Fearless when upgraded to zombies with Typhus. Lucious the Eternals Attack profile is based on the WS of his opponent only in a Challenge. Daemon Forge is an optional to use ability that is only for shooting not CC. It allows to re roll failed armor pen or wound roll too, but you have to roll a D6 and on a 1 your defiler looses a Hull Point.


----------



## whiplash308

mcmuffin said:


> Their rules are all fine, but all of them are overcosted.
> 
> Zerkers would need to get rending if they were to stay at 21pts per model, or at least an option for several models to get rending. as is they should only be about 18-20pts .
> 
> Noise marines just need to have their sonic weapons included in their price for 18pts per model with the blastmaster coming down to a more reasonable price.
> 
> Plague Marines should have a points reduction to about 20-21pts
> 
> Thousand sons should go down to about 20 with the sorcerer getting a second wound at 40pts. Either that or keep them the same price and make their saving throw invulnerable.


Agreed on all behalves, especially Noise Marines. I want to do Emperor's Children, along with my own warband having Noise Marines in them. Paying for a basic marine with an extra Initiative value, then paying plenty more points just for the weapons they're meant to have is kind of scary.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Land Speeders DID exist pre-Heresy, there is no fluff reason given for Traitor Legions not having them.


----------



## Mole120

*Most Over Powered terminators!*

Chaos assault terminators with thunder hammers, storm shields and Mark of tzeentch. 
Most op terminators in the game with 2+/2++ Armour/Invulnerable saves.

Now that would definitely bring some laughter to the thirsting gods! LOL!:victory:


----------



## Horacus

Mole120 said:


> Chaos assault terminators with thunder hammers, storm shields and Mark of tzeentch.
> Most op terminators in the game with 2+/2++ Armour/Invulnerable saves.
> 
> Now that would definitely bring some laughter to the thirsting gods! LOL!:victory:


GODS MAKE IT HAPPEN


----------



## mcmuffin

Horacus said:


> GODS MAKE IT HAPPEN


Seems balanced enough


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Isn't Nurgle ones more survivable? T5 with 2+/3++. Maybe Nurgle mark also gives FNP? Currently it doesn't but all units that start with Nurgle mark has FNP.

Haven't done math but I guess nurgle is better vs S3 power weapons and same vs S4 power weapons whilst Tzeentch is better vs S5 above with power weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Hmm, if FNP is reduced to 5+ as rumoured I guess Tzeentch will be best regardless. Then again we dont know if CSM will get Thunder/Daemon Hammer Storm Shield Terminators.


Basically I'm thinking volume of fire taken, since it's harder to wound T5 Nurgle ones would take fewer wounds so would have to roll less. 150 lasgun shots from a 50man IG squad using FRFSRF Order will do wounds regardless.


----------



## MidnightSun

I hope we don't get Space Marine gear AVEC LES SPIEKS, we should get more Daemon-y stuff and, as I've always maintained, the raw stats. Loyalists get the awe-inspiring wargear, Chaos get the brutal statlines.

Chaos Terminators with Shock Maces, (mini) Power Scourges, and a Champion with Daemon Weapon. Noice.

Midnight


----------



## Mole120

Horacus said:


> GODS MAKE IT HAPPEN


Yes, yes they do.:laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

tDG has more rumours today, I thought the starter was to be released in September? If it really is CSM vs DA why would they release the starter set at the same time as the CSM launch leaving the DA codex outdated? DA WD codex at same time? Sounds really weird but it is GW we are talking about...


theDarkGeneral said:


> I'm sure there will be enough sonic weaponry in the new Codex to keep the Emperor's Children players quite happy.
> 
> As for release time, new models hit in less than 5 weeks with the 6th Edition Starter set and our Codex hopefully within a week or two of that. I was originally told August, I'd prefer it earlier than later!
> 
> I wonder what everyone's view are on Chaos Raptors and Chaos Assault Marines now that there's a juicy rumor about jump infantry striking at I(10) on the turn they assault? With their new models approaching and I'm assuming Hit & Run (for Raptors) stayed, I can see these becoming a mainstay unit of many Chaos Legions!


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> tDG has more rumours today, I thought the starter was to be released in September? If it really is CSM vs DA why would they release the starter set at the same time as the CSM launch leaving the DA codex outdated? DA WD codex at same time? Sounds really weird but it is GW we are talking about...


The starter set is still due for release just before the DA codex, in September.....


----------



## whiplash308

As much as I believe this I10 thing from the jump infantry assaults, I feel as if Blood Angels are going to be played more. Way more. Why wouldn't people run as much jump infantry as they can if they're going to be I10 on the charge? I know it's supposedly becoming infantryhammer, but still.


----------



## mcmuffin

Everyone is misreading. They aren't I10 on the charge, they can make an attack at I10


----------



## whiplash308

Ohhh a single attack at I10? Well that's fine. LOL. My mistake.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

whiplash308 said:


> Ohhh a single attack at I10? Well that's fine. LOL. My mistake.


It's fricken OP!!! 10 Assault Marines will wound 2-3 Ork boys on the charge!!! And if CCW has an AP the boys wont even get a save!!! That's 18points lost before the combat even starts!!!


Perhaps you get to chose if you want to either do the I10 attack or the standard attack. I hope you get both as some armies could use this buff, Necron Triarch Praetorians and Ork Stormboyz (they come with stikkbombz)


----------



## whiplash308

Yeah, some assault troops can benefit from that special I10 attack, but I agree. If they're a high strength model, possibly coupled with furious charge granting another S, and wielding a power weapon, that's no fun! D:


----------



## Topknot11

To whiplash, cult marines are not fine they have got to fiix the point cost on ts. Really 63 pts for a friggin useless sorc in every unit makes what should be the best elites in the game sub par and useless they also meed to fix khorne beserkers its a sad day when nurgle marines arw the best troop choices hands down in a codex. I hope that i will be able to run traitor guard as troops with ts as elites it will be nice and gives me a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about it! Nuff said!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

A scan of the Generic Psyhic Powers was posted by Wez today in the 6E Rumours thread. Interesting list indeed though odd that Chaos Daemons can't use any of the generic psyhic powers. CSM have access to Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy. I find it really odd they dont have Biomancy as some of the Thousand Sons were Biomancers and healers. Heck even Divination was something they could do, predicting the future to dodge attacks or warn allies of ambushes.
Maybe Thousand Sons and Tzeentch will have an exception rule allowing them to take any of the schools of magic.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> A scan of the Generic Psyhic Powers was posted by Wez today in the 6E Rumours thread. Interesting list indeed though odd that Chaos Daemons can't use any of the generic psyhic powers. CSM have access to Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy. I find it really odd they dont have Biomancy as some of the Thousand Sons were Biomancers and healers. Heck even Divination was something they could do, predicting the future to dodge attacks or warn allies of ambushes.
> Maybe Thousand Sons and Tzeentch will have an exception rule allowing them to take any of the schools of magic.


Don't forgot about dark apostles. Their entire thing revolves around divination.


----------



## LukeValantine

How does chaos not have all 5 schools? I am fairly damn sure that biomancy should be available to chaos. Mind you in this next edition they may have some justification for this, I just hope its not along the line of csm's are to stupid or inept to use them.


----------



## clever handle

LukeValantine said:


> How does chaos not have all 5 schools? I am fairly damn sure that biomancy should be available to chaos. Mind you in this next edition they may have some justification for this, I just hope its not along the line of csm's are to stupid or inept to use them.


they had to return their text books along with their stormshields, land speeders and relic blades.


----------



## LukeValantine

Who knows maybe chaos will have its own list of psychic powers like a fantasy army.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Codex: Blood Angels
- Librarians (including Mephiston) May choose to EXCHANGE their Codex Psychic Powers for the Psychic Powers found in the 40k Rulebook. If they choose to do so they may take 2 powers from the following disciplines: Biomancy? Divination, Telepathy or Telekinesis before deployment.


Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Any model with psychic powers may use the psychic disciplines found in the 40k Rulebook instead of the C:CSM. If you choose to do so, for every psychic power that you have paid for from C:CSM you make take 1 psychic power from the following disciplines: Piromancy? Telekinesis or Telepathy before deployment. Models may choose to get their powers from different disciplines. Typhus generates 2 powers, Ahriman generates 3 powers.


----------



## OpTi

C:CSM better have a rule allowing Tsons to take any power because atm Ahriman apparently has forgotten how to use the discipline he was head of :<


----------



## Da Joka

Looking at this I'm guessing Orks just use their powers in the book.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Da Joka said:


> Looking at this I'm guessing Orks just use their powers in the book.


Thing I'm curious about is Tyranids with Zoanthropes, they are psykers after all. Will they be able to take any psyhic powers? How does that work if you have a unit of 2-3?


----------



## Vhalyar

OpTi said:


> C:CSM better have a rule allowing Tsons to take any power because atm Ahriman apparently has forgotten how to use the discipline he was head of :<


That's what happens when you try to cram too many army styles and philosophies into a single book. You can't have every toy, so obviously some elements of the book get shafted.

I'm guessing that the new codex will have, like fantasy, its own 4 extra psychic lores and the Tzeentchian one will fill in the Thousand Son gap.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Thing I'm curious about is Tyranids with Zoanthropes, they are psykers after all. Will they be able to take any psyhic powers? How does that work if you have a unit of 2-3?


Tyranids can field an absurd number of psykers... yet I very much doubt that every single one of them will get access to the lores.


----------



## lockeF

Vhalyar said:


> That's what happens when you try to cram too many army styles and philosophies into a single book. You can't have every toy, so obviously some elements of the book get shafted.
> 
> I'm guessing that the new codex will have, like fantasy, its own 4 extra psychic lores and the Tzeentchian one will fill in the Thousand Son gap.
> 
> 
> 
> Tyranids can field an absurd number of psykers... yet I very much doubt that every single one of them will get access to the lores.


I agree with this about the thousand sons. It would make sense for them specifically to have all the lores, but for the BRB to say CSM armies have access to all the lores would mean that any cult could use all the lores. Another reason to be excited for the new codex, in fact, wasn't there a previous rumor talking about new psychic powers for the rubric marines?

And as a tyranid player, I really think it odd to get some of those random powers. Obviously don't know what they are yet, but Tyranid psychic powers make sense and trading out yours for random generic ones seems like it would be a bit strange. Especially the doom.


----------



## Vhalyar

Looks like I was mistaken, every Tyranid psyker can exchange their powers. Scary.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Looks like I was mistaken, every Tyranid psyker can exchange their powers. Scary.


Be happy they cant take Pyromancy, 3 Zoenthropes with Molten Beam would be op as fuck since you can deepstrike them without risk of misshap in a pod. Basically 3 Death Ray shots going through your army.... ouch....


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

any word on the setup of the base CSM troops, if they are going just bolt gun, or CCW BG BP combo still?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The_Werewolf_Arngeirr said:


> any word on the setup of the base CSM troops, if they are going just bolt gun, or CCW BG BP combo still?


If it's not on the first page there are no rumours about it.
There has been very few rumours regarding standard wargear so one could assume that nothing is changing.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Be happy they cant take Pyromancy, 3 Zoenthropes with Molten Beam would be op as fuck since you can deepstrike them without risk of misshap in a pod. Basically 3 Death Ray shots going through your army.... ouch....


It would take a good deal of luck though. You pick the discipline, but not the powers. You roll a d6 for each power for each unit to determine what you get.

Zoanthropes are already talented at blowing up AV14, it's the Tervigons that you should think about. They are in just about every Tyranid army and in fairly large numbers. They have can two (or is it 3?) powers for cheap. And Telekinesis apparently has good anti-tank to it.

I expected Tervigons to be throwing a lot of weird powers around in the future.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

With allies being in 6E does that mean lesser daemons wont be in the CSM codex? Would there be a point to them?


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> With allies being in 6E does that mean lesser daemons wont be in the CSM codex? Would there be a point to them?


Well we did have a rumor saying that all lesser and greater daemons have been kicked out, replaced by cultists for cheap fodder. Considering the whole alliance thing, it's entirely plausible (and sensible).

Edit: I just noticed something amusing in the new video. In the paragraph that describes Psyker Mastery, it ends with: "Psykers with a Mastery Level of 4 or higher are incredibly rare, and it is better for the galaxy that this is so – they are unbelievably powerful, and rarely submit to authority other than their own.”

Makes me think of what Grant said; Ahriman has Mastery Level 4. And now, checking back on what grant said about 6th edition... he mentioned quite a few spot-on things. Suddenly his CSM rumors seem rather interesting. You can read them here.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I got about three squads of kasrkin models unpainted and 1 or 2 units of guardsmen as well as 3 or 4 battle tanks and a chimera, so I'm thinking of turning them all chaosy. I also got the original forgeworld Valkyrie but some bits are broken and i've started taking it to pieces, may try and get plastic replacements from the current plastic set, any one know if they fit?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bah, I'm so tired of all these people who have or claim to have the rulebook but are too lazy to share everything... what you get because of this is hundreds of people asking the exact same questions...

I really hope I get my rulebook tomorrow, if I do I'll write a complete rundown so all questions can finally be put to rest


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Would be nice, with all the threads on the entire intertube it can be hard to tell if some of the questions are even out there yet.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

****, realised I wrote that in the wrong thread :crazy:


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

MadCowCrazy said:


> ****, realised I wrote that in the wrong thread :crazy:


Not a problem. If you have the next edition of C:CSM tomorrow then answer all our questions anyway.


----------



## Vhalyar

Finally something to bring us back on topic: *Darnok strongly believes in an August C:CSM release based on his sources.*



Darnok said:


> August will see CSM and Daemons.





Darnok said:


> I'd would bet money on Codex: CSM in August. Daemons are heavily rumoured to get models as well, even though I'm not 100% sure about it.


With the Allies system, it'd make sense to release some Daemon models along with the CSM stuff. So if we're looking at August, then we should be looking at proper leaks in about a month (unless it's late August).

I have to say, the earlier the better! I have a big Thousand Sons project sort of stalled due to uncertainty as to what will be possible/good in the new codex.


----------



## Adramalech

LukeValantine said:


> Who knows maybe chaos will have its own list of psychic powers like a fantasy army.


It makes sense for them to go with a model like that. People don't deal very well with change, but they deal even worse with a lack of interesting choices.

though, we do have to consider the slim possibility that chaos might not get anything special in regards to psychic powers.

It'd be really disappointing if all those super-fluffy daemonic pacts and exotic sorceries didn't get any representation


----------



## Vhalyar

Adramalech said:


> It makes sense for them to go with a model like that. People don't deal very well with change, but they deal even worse with a lack of interesting choices.
> 
> though, we do have to consider the slim possibility that chaos might not get anything special in regards to psychic powers.
> 
> It'd be really disappointing if all those super-fluffy daemonic pacts and exotic sorceries didn't get any representation


Every codex with psykers has its own list of powers though, so I can't see them not getting something fluffy. What I am most curious about is whether we'll get to pick our powers or if we'll be forced to use random tables like the new generic lores. I hope we keep the normal system, because the whole roll d6 kind of sucks.


----------



## Adramalech

Vhalyar said:


> Every codex with psykers has its own list of powers though, so I can't see them not getting something fluffy. What I am most curious about is whether we'll get to pick our powers or if we'll be forced to use random tables like the new generic lores. I hope we keep the normal system, because the whole roll d6 kind of sucks.


yeahhhh :s rolling a d6 for your powers -does- kinda suck.


----------



## slaaneshy

Yay - Khorne psykers FTW...
Why not? They are re-writting all the fluff!


----------



## clever handle

strongly doubt a new edition in July will be followed by a new army book in August... as a Slaaneshi player I'd be pleased, but I just doubt it... MAYBE the Gamesday book in November....


----------



## whiplash308

I'd very much enjoy a CSM/Daemon release date within the same time span. I can sadly see this ally thing being very..overused. I'd at least make it logical with a group of, say Daemonettes. I really don't want to see Guardsmen gun lines doing nothing because of a squad of Grey Knights kicking your ass before you even get to them. I'd certainly like that August rumor though. Gives me something to read right before college time perhaps.


----------



## Bindi Baji

clever handle said:


> strongly doubt a new edition in July will be followed by a new army book in August... as a Slaaneshi player I'd be pleased, but I just doubt it... MAYBE the Gamesday book in November....


be prepared to be pleased then..................


----------



## Voss

clever handle said:


> strongly doubt a new edition in July will be followed by a new army book in August... as a Slaaneshi player I'd be pleased, but I just doubt it... MAYBE the Gamesday book in November....


Well, obviously you are right to doubt. New edition in June, not July. :shok:
Word does seem to be consistently pointing to August, however, for the CSM book.


----------



## bobahoff

New edition, then new chaos dex 2 months later

My wallet can't take much more of this.

Dogs and children can survive without food can't they?


----------



## slaaneshy

bobahoff said:


> New edition, then new chaos dex 2 months later
> 
> My wallet can't take much more of this.
> 
> Dogs and children can survive without food can't they?


You can feed one to the other...ill let u decide!


----------



## Vhalyar

bobahoff said:


> New edition, then new chaos dex 2 months later
> 
> My wallet can't take much more of this.
> 
> Dogs and children can survive without food can't they?


Followed shortly after by a starter set (and also a premium starter set) with Chaos models.


----------



## clever handle

Bindi Baji said:


> be prepared to be pleased then..................


my slaaneshi self is waiting with baited breath...

but I've been waiting since January.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So I got my hands on the new 6E BRB today, when flipping trough it I came across this on page 397. There is a lineup of illustrated models, all of which look pretty much exactly like the plastic miniature in question... all except one...
So is this what the new Chaos Dreadnought will look like? I'd like to think so, as why else would the have a line up of model illustrations and add something new they wont use at the end?


----------



## whiplash308

A dread like that would be nice to fight alongside my converted furioso. I can't wait to get my book. Damn you PayPal for taking so long with my funds!


----------



## Black Legionare

@MadCowCrazy: Naw man, that dreadnought looks like the forge world one. Nothing new.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Black Legionare said:


> @MadCowCrazy: Naw man, that dreadnought looks like the forge world one. Nothing new.


Which one?
I dont see one with a DCCW like this, or a general design like it either?


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

The right weapon mount does looks like the FW gun from a skull mount.

The head is similar to the Wordbearers chassis but the rest of the chassis is not identical.

If the pictures are based on the models it could just be an impression of an FW model; if they are actually drawn from models then I think it might well be a new Dreadnought.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> So I got my hands on the new 6E BRB today, when flipping trough it I came across this on page 397. There is a lineup of illustrated models, all of which look pretty much exactly like the plastic miniature in question... all except one...
> So is this what the new Chaos Dreadnought will look like? I'd like to think so, as why else would the have a line up of model illustrations and add something new they wont use at the end?


Important precision: Stickmonkey claims that this is the new Chaos dreadnought. (Posted on BOLS)



Stickmonkey said:


> Eagled eyed readers of the new rulebook can spy the new plastic chaos dread, plus some nice artwork of it.
> Start looking around page 390...


It looks to be taking inspiration from the FW Word Bearers dread + FW cannon arm, but the rest looks plenty new. I would hazard a guess that the kit would come with multiple heads that represent various legions.


----------



## LukeValantine

Yep looks like the new dread. Doesn't perfectly fit with any of the FW dreads, but its so damn close its obvious where they got the idea.

Or I could just be wrong, but GW typically doesn't post FW models with GW models.

Note is also seems to have a combi bolter mounted on its uper hull a feature no forge world dread has.

Also according to the new faq plague marines and any regular marine with a mark of nurgle no longer fears PFs' or melta guns (If you know what I mean).

Also who was stupid enough to think that making kharn and typhus I1 if they use their power weapons was a good idea? Hell I see no reason to ever use kharn now, at least typhus has a damn good chance of ignoring even power fists.

Also almost all chaos psykers are mastery level 1?


----------



## Vhalyar

Got my book, I noticed a few interesting things that might end up relating to C:CSM.

"Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers". This is basically what the Grey Knights have, but interesting that they specifically pointed out sorcerers. Who's got sorcerers in this grim and dark galaxy?

Feel No Pain (x). Yeah, there actually are levels of FNP and they determine what d6 roll is needed to shrug off attacks. 5+ if unspecified. Hello Plague Marines, perhaps in the future you'll recover your old FNP save.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The 2 plague bearers on page 301, are they new? I can't remember one in metal not having a mouth? Plastics perhaps?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Is the book in stores now?


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> The 2 plague bearers on page 301, are they new? I can't remember one in metal not having a mouth? Plastics perhaps?


No, both are from the existing kit. They are shown from different angles on the website, but the poses are exactly the same.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Is the book in stores now?


Today is the release day, yes.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Because the rumour mill is pretty dried up I figured I'd add this. The new FAQs are out and all of them have been named Codex Name 6th Ed V1, all except CSM which is just Chaos Space Marine 6th.
I guess this is because it's the next codex and there would be no need for a CSM V1. I'm 100% sure it will require some FAQs to fix it's problems when it comes out but that might get named differently or they didn't name this one V1 so they could use that name for when the new CSM FAQ does come out.
Yeah, nothing interesting going around atm....


----------



## Mole120

I don't know if anyone has said this but what is the rumored release date for the codex?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I seriously hope that the changes made in the FAQ will turn out to be good soon, such as Kharn is so frenzied he attacks in initiative order or something.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Mole120 said:


> I don't know if anyone has said this but what is the rumored release date for the codex?


Rumour is late July or early August. So perhaps pre-orders in July and release first week of August.


----------



## Dawnstar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Rumour is late July or early August. So perhaps pre-orders in July and release first week of August.


If the 6th Edition starter set is rumored to be September, August makes perfect sense for the 6th Edition CSM book


----------



## Vhalyar

Snippets from The Dude concerning the Chaos stuff in the starter set:



The Dude said:


> The leaked Chinese summary sheets from the starter set show Cultists as having Guard stats, but with a 6+Sv
> 
> It also shows them with access to Autoguns or Autopistol and CCW as well as options for Flamers and Heavy Stubbers.
> 
> Their Squad leaders can also take Shotguns or two CCW for some reason.





The Dude said:


> Really depends on any possible special rules they might end up getting. The Auto weapons are the same as their las equivalents, so it's just their save and presumedly lack of Orders that differentiates them from Guard.





The Dude said:


> Chaos Lord: Power Armour, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Dreadnought (Seems to be named as "Hellbeast"): Multi Melta and Power Fist
> 
> Chosen: Sergeant w/ Power Maul, Bolt Pistol & Bolter. One with a lightning claw, one with Power Axe, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, one with Power Fist, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, two with Close Combat Weapons, Bolters & Bolt Pistols. All have Power Armour, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Cultist squad 1: Cultist leader w/ two Close Combat Weapons and 9 Cultists, one w/ Flamer, 8 w/ Close Combat Weapons & Autopistols
> 
> Cultist squad 2: Cultist leader w/ Close Combat Weapon & (possibly) Shotgun and 9 Cultist, 1 w/ (possibly) Heavy Stubber and 8 w/ Autoguns


Seems quite likely that BoK was right about the dreadnought now.


----------



## LukeValantine

Yep,.....I sincerely hope that those cultists bring more to the table then what they are showing here, that or they better be like 4pts each.


----------



## Eleven

Mmm, yeah those cultists are going ro need a dedicated transport for sure. I doubt they will be fearless so it isn't looking good. Might be the grots of the csm codex.


It might be cool if you could sacrifice them to make spells stronger or to summon daemon allies.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

They should all get grenade launchers like in DOW2: Retribution 

Will they have dedicated models or will they have to be converted?


----------



## LukeValantine

Really don't see the point in cultists anymore as anyone hard up for griss in their army will take a few units of traitor guard.


----------



## mcmuffin

right, does anyone here speak chinese? no idea of dialect or anything, i'm just curious, this looks like a reference sheet for the upcoming starter set on the chaos side


----------



## Vhalyar

mcmuffin said:


> right, does anyone here speak chinese? no idea of dialect or anything, i'm just curious, this looks like a reference sheet for the upcoming starter set on the chaos side


See my previous post 

The chosen seem terribly underwhelming. For a bunch of veterans, they get... ld9 and one attack. Right. So basically run of the mill marines, unless they have some truly amazing special rules.


----------



## mcmuffin

Vhalyar said:


> See my previous post
> 
> The chosen seem terribly underwhelming. For a bunch of veterans, they get... ld9 and one attack. Right. So basically run of the mill marines, unless they have some truly amazing special rules.


oops, saw it posted on facebook and made me think it was a special snowflake. yeah the chosen are shit, i hope that is not a sign of what is to come, i was hoping for something more along the lines of paladins.


----------



## LukeValantine

So they look virtually unchanged. Well except losing a LD point (Why I have no idea, but meh). Keep in mind GW is vary random and the last batch of 6 codecies have had uber powerful units and armies, and uter shit ones to. I just hope CSM's get a fair shake as 6-7 years is a long time to wait if they murder your favorite unit.


----------



## Vhalyar

No idea how reliable the poster is, but:



Rick Blaine said:


> The Chaos side is certainly a bit light on power armour. Gonna remind people again that Chaos is getting a reward table similar to DE's Power From Pain, though. No telling what sorts of goodies the Chosen might get once they get rid of those 3 bikes or a combat squad.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Maybe I should repaint my Khorne again...seems that not only are they going to be a bit rubbish but pretty useless in regards to being assault like. Maybe going towards more of a chaos undivided army.


----------



## Voss

Vhalyar said:


> See my previous post
> 
> The chosen seem terribly underwhelming. For a bunch of veterans, they get... ld9 and one attack. Right. So basically run of the mill marines, unless they have some truly amazing special rules.


Very much like how they are now, which sends a few chills down my spine.

This codex... so much potential for improvement, but so many ways it can go terribly, terribly wrong. Being the first book out of the gate doesn't help either.


----------



## Dawnstar

mcmuffin said:


> right, does anyone here speak chinese? no idea of dialect or anything, i'm just curious, this looks like a reference sheet for the upcoming starter set on the chaos side


Can anyone translate the weapons at the bottom at the least? I believe I see a combat weapon with +1 S and AP2, wonder if it's Unwieldy as well...


----------



## maddermax

From my post on the boxed set, but so you can see what the guys are outfitted with:



> UPDATED WITH TRANSLATED TEXT by darthpuyang
> 
> Dark Angels
> captain with power sword, combi-plasma, iron halo.
> librarian with bolt pistol and force sword
> combat squad sarge with plasma pistol and chainsword, 2 plasma gun, 7 bolter
> death wing sarge with power sword and storm bolter, 1 assult cannon and 1 chain fist,others 3 power fist
> raven wing sarge with chain sword, one bike with plasma, one with pisotl, all twin link bolter
> they all have frag and krak grenades
> 
> Chaos
> Lord with power sword and plasma pistol
> dreadnought ( the name in Chinese is something like hell beast, but I assume it's dread from rumors) with multi-melta and power fist( dreadnought fist?)
> chosen champion with power maul , 1 lightning claw, 1 power fist, 1 power axe, 2 close combat weapon
> cultist leader with 2 ccw, 1 flamer, 8 with ccw and auto pistol
> cultist 2 leader with shotgun and ccw, 1 heavy stubber, 8 autogun


Basically, cultists seem to suck, at least they do when they're set up how they are. Guardsmen stats, and they've put them in the boxed set half with an assault setup - my god, they couldn't hope to take on any of the DA units without some serious special rule help - and the other half with auto-guns and a heavy stubber (no heavy weapon to help them take on power armour). Plus, the sheer amount of fire power (especially with up to 9 plasma shots in a turn) make the starter sets against each other a pretty much foregone conclusion, barring some uber rule for the chaos side that we can't yet fathom.


----------



## LukeValantine

Its a power axe.


----------



## whiplash308

Well that's certainly some news of what we can expect from Chosen now. Cultists, as simple sounding as this may be, look like garbage. Chosen have a mix match of weapons, as before, and the same stat line, except Ld9 instead of Ld10. I always have high hopes for Chosen. I expect something badass to come out of this.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I've honestly put my Khorne Bezerkers away, complicated re-painting them but they'd been painted to much already and I absolutely hate them. Half my force is unpainted and I'm going to try figure out a way to salvage them as there's lots of Khorne marks on them etc including some forgeworld bits and I've literally fallen out of love with Khorne.


----------



## Vhalyar

Reminder though that the data sheets are unconfirmed, as in none of the usualy rumor posters have said anything about them.


----------



## Eleven

whiplash308 said:


> Well that's certainly some news of what we can expect from Chosen now. Cultists, as simple sounding as this may be, look like garbage. Chosen have a mix match of weapons, as before, and the same stat line, except Ld9 instead of Ld10. I always have high hopes for Chosen. I expect something badass to come out of this.


Don't be too hasty. All they will need is access to a DT and ability to use melta or plasma and they will be just fine.

As for the chosen, it looks as if we will be disappointed once again. I wonder if we will have chosen that split up and join squads in the style of wolves and necrons. And hey, leadership 9 won't be so bad if we can finally have ATSKNF or something like it. If we aren't getting it, then the 9 leadership is a bad bad sign. Probably generic csm will have 8 leadership. I doubt they would do this to us, that would see CSM running from battle like tau. One can only dread how low the leadership of cultists will likely be.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

6E Starter Set contents have been leaked, the chaos part of it is exactly as has been rumoured for months. Dreadnought name seems to be Hellbeast, the picture from the rulebook I posted had the name The Hell Feaster. So perhaps different region name as the leak is from China?
Source
Picture 1
Picture 2


> via tokugawa
> DA has :
> Captain Balthasar(with power armor, not in TDA)
> Librarian(with power armor)
> Tactical Sqaud(10 men, with 1 plasma cannon)
> Deathwing Squad(5 men, with storm bolters, no Stormshield)
> Ravenwing Squad(3 bikes)
> 
> Chaos part:
> Lord(in power armor)
> Chaos Dread(with tl-melta and DCCW)
> Chosen(6 men, with power maul, power fist and lightning claw)
> Cultists(20 men, half with ccw and pistol, the other half have assault rifle)
> 
> 
> Via TheDude and translated spaint2k
> Dark Angels
> Captain Balthasar: w/ Power Armour, Power Sword, Combi-Plasma, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Librarian Termiel (SP?): w/ Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Deathwing Squad Balachar (SP?): Sergeant w/ Storm Bolter & Power Sword, 1 w/ Assault Cannon & Power Fist, 1 w/ Storm Bolter & Chainfist and 2 w/ Storm Bolter & Power Fist
> 
> Tactical Squad Raphael: Sergeant w/ Plasma Pistol & Chainsword and 9 Marines, 1 w/ Plasma Cannon, 1 w/ Plasma Gun, 7 w/ Bolters. All with Bolt Pistol and Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Ravenwing Squad Allian (SP?): Sergeant w/ Chainsword, 1 w/ Plasma Gun and 1 w/ Bolt Pistol. All with twin-linked bolters and Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Chaos Space Marines
> Chaos Lord: Power Armour, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Dreadnought (Seems to be named as "Hellbeast"): Multi Melta and Power Fist
> 
> Chosen: Sergeant w/ Power Maul, Bolt Pistol & Bolter. One with a lightning claw, one with Power Axe, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, one with Power Fist, Bolt Pistol & Bolter, two with Close Combat Weapons, Bolters & Bolt Pistols. All have Power Armour, Frag & Krak grenades
> 
> Cultist squad 1: Cultist leader w/ two Close Combat Weapons and 9 Cultists, one w/ Flamer, 8 w/ Close Combat Weapons & Autopistols
> 
> Cultist squad 2: Cultist leader w/ Close Combat Weapon & (possibly) Shotgun and 9 Cultist, 1 w/ (possibly) Heavy Stubber and 8 w/ Autoguns
> 
> 
> The leaked Chinese summary sheets from the starter set show Cultists as having Guard stats, but with a 6+Sv
> It also shows them with access to Autoguns or Autopistol and CCW as well as options for Flamers and Heavy Stubbers.
> Their Squad leaders can also take Shotguns or two CCW for some reason.


More Chaos Daemons seems to be on the way, Allies for CSM are finally getting some plastic love
Source


Erazmus_M_Wattle said:


> I've heard a whisper that more Daemons are on the way. We've all heard about new Plague Bearers in plastic. Plastic nurglings have been sighted. Apparently they looke like they're swarming over one another in a sort of wave. Sounds cool.
> 
> Not only that. There's more. Finecast screamers. Like the old ones but less manta ray with more tusks. Possibly some more heralds. Not sure if they are plastic or finecast.
> 
> Heralds on chariots. The Slaanesh chariot is in the warehouse and it comes with a chariot base as expected for the square basers but may also have the oval for 40k players.
> 
> The Scribes have been seen as well. The disc looks like a flying alter and the blue scribes look manic.
> 
> The plague bearers have a new look which as you'd expect harks back to the old days.


----------



## Vhalyar

Eleven said:


> One can only dread how low the leadership of cultists will likely be.


7 and 8 for the squad sarge. I can't possibly imagine regular Chaos troops at Ld8.


----------



## LukeValantine

You know what I just realized? The load out of the chosen hints at them taking assault weapon spam from them and making them a dedicated assault unit (A rather shitty one looking at their stat line.). Just thought I would speak up as my chosen have never had a single special close combat weapon, and this would be a terrible edition to make CSM's a overpriced CC army.

I also doubt they will be the breaking of and leading a squad type unit, as that would make them even weaker then regular squad leaders do to only having 1 attack. Compared to a champs two (Probably also 5pts more expensive to)


----------



## slaaneshy

If the chosen are fearless then ld 9 is less of an issue, and if they can lead squads of cultists, then they will be useful bunnies.


----------



## lockeF

That is all pretty exciting. I definitely look forward to this box as I play both armies and the DA stuff seems like a great deal. 5 terminators and 3 bikes, sounds great.


----------



## SilverTabby

Don't forget, lots of USRs now say 'if one member of the squad has this', which includes scout and infiltrate. So if chosen or characters can get upgrades or come with these skills, you stick them in a cultist squad and suddenly you have an outflanking horde...


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> Don't forget, lots of USRs now say 'if one member of the squad has this', which includes scout and infiltrate. So if chosen or characters can get upgrades or come with these skills, you stick them in a cultist squad and suddenly you have an outflanking horde...


What would be awesome is if you could apply various special rules to the chosen to represent the different legions and then distribute them out to their squads.


----------



## TheLaughingMan

Oh My God! I know this is only a rumour after all but reading some of this stuff has got me unbelievable excited, I mean I've always wanted a chaos landspeeder since I was a kid and with the possiblity to do so Is just crazy! Typhus able to bring Zombies into the fray with FNP? Whaaaaaaaat????????? A bit of a bumer that cult troops are now elietes but I hope that is only a freaking rumour! They've made the Defiler more juicier, but I haven't been brought up to speed on what the Hull Points system is? Can anyone here explain that to me please?

But from just reading some of this stuff, like dreadnoughts taking marks and the introduction of a Chaos Dreadknight? I mean come' on? Really? Unbelievably awesome, I can turn to a GK (Geh Knights) player and say to him oh you have a dreadknight? Well Fuck you! So do I mother fucker!

As you can probably tell I am so FUCKING EXCITED about this so excuse my language and over reaction to all of this. I just love Chaos so much! Ha ha ha ha ha ha haa ha ha ha ha haa ha ha ha ha ha!


----------



## MidnightSun

Wait, wait, Ahriman is supposedly going to be level 4?

So he's a more powerful psyker than Eldrad. Something wrong here.

Midnight


----------



## LukeValantine

Maybe not, after all the eldar book is also out dated so it makes perfect sense that they would get the same treatment when their turn comes up. So most likely he will be bumped up to 4+ as well. After all its not a good idea to judge what will break fluff or power balance in 6th by out dated codecies.


----------



## mcmuffin

MidnightSun said:


> Wait, wait, Ahriman is supposedly going to be level 4?
> 
> So he's a more powerful psyker than Eldrad. Something wrong here.
> 
> Midnight


He's the most powerful non-primarch psyker that humanity has produced, asides from Big E. I think it is reasonable that he is more powerful than eldrad, eldrad doesnt have access to chaos sorcery for his power


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Is he that powerful or does he just have a lot of knowledge, for example Lorgar could of been as powerful as Magnus but he didn't have the knowledge to properly access it. I'm not saying he's not that powerful but imo there's levels of how powerful someone will always be, but has Ahriman reached his full potential and is just gaining knowledge as to how to use it, or is he continuing to unlock his power.


----------



## Vhalyar

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is he that powerful or does he just have a lot of knowledge, for example Lorgar could of been as powerful as Magnus but he didn't have the knowledge to properly access it. I'm not saying he's not that powerful but imo there's levels of how powerful someone will always be, but has Ahriman reached his full potential and is just gaining knowledge as to how to use it, or is he continuing to unlock his power.


He's extremely powerful, unshackled from restrictions, and on a personal quest to dominate sorcery. Basically he has all the time in the world, and that time is spent understanding the warp.

And to boot Tzeentch kind of likes him, even though the feeling isn't reciprocal :biggrin:


----------



## Eleven

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is he that powerful or does he just have a lot of knowledge, for example Lorgar could of been as powerful as Magnus but he didn't have the knowledge to properly access it.


Lorgar is indeed pretty powerful. Lorgar also didn't get his spine broke WWE style by Russ.


----------



## All_Is_Dust

Well the faq states Ahriman is mastery level 3. I doubt they will make him 4 in the codex.


----------



## Voss

I wouldn't get too caught up in the temporary patches to the current codex.
I really suspect the new one started from scratch in a lot of respects.

As far as his power level goes (and specifically compared to Eldrad)... well, he doesn't have Eldrad's ethical restrictions on what he will do for power, he has been around for ~10,000 years (adjusted in both directions for the weirdness the Warp and the EoT has on time), and like all game states, it is a rough approximation. Plus, well, that kind of logic leads to there only being one or no level 4 psykers running around. Where is the fun in that?


----------



## Eleven

Voss said:


> I wouldn't get too caught up in the temporary patches to the current codex.
> I really suspect the new one started from scratch in a lot of respects.
> 
> As far as his power level goes (and specifically compared to Eldrad)... well, he doesn't have Eldrad's ethical restrictions on what he will do for power, he has been around for ~10,000 years (adjusted in both directions for the weirdness the Warp and the EoT has on time), and like all game states, it is a rough approximation. Plus, well, that kind of logic leads to there only being one or no level 4 psykers running around. Where is the fun in that?


If they make ari level 4, then I'm sure eldrad will be level 4 in the new eldardex. Only thing is they better give ari some damn divining powers, along with my dark apostle.


----------



## Voss

I think your dark apostle is essentially 'give somebody a power maul'.


----------



## lord petrus sanguinus

any news about release date?


----------



## SilverTabby

Given the starter set is confirmed to have chaos cultists in it and the book itself is written, I'd say July / august is a very likely window. September at the latest, though august / September is the likely starter set date.


----------



## nevynxxx

Tabby: How viable is a simultaneous Codex/Starter set release?

I don't know about the logistics (But I'm guessing they would be horrid), but it makes sense to release the codex for both armies in the starter with the starter. Then waves of new models over later months?


----------



## SilverTabby

It's not unfeasible that one codex would be simultaneous, but not both. As chaos would have more unusual and new stuff than DA, I'd lay money on chaos being first, with a bit of time for new things to settle in, then DA with / after the box set. 

Chaos first wave would include many new figures never seen before. Releasing it with the box would eclipse one release. 

DA first wave would include, well, marines in robes. Less to be eclipsed by a simultaneous release of a box with robed marines in...


----------



## Vhalyar

Small tidbit, from Stelek at YTTH:



> [...]CSM will get flyers in amounts and capacity to make Necron players feel stupid for buying their flyers


He has previously dropped lots of little hints that turned out to be true, so I thought this was interesting.

Daemon Princes with proper Flying MC status, plus the flying dragon daemon engine? There might be some FOC manipulation too.


----------



## nevynxxx

SilverTabby said:


> It's not unfeasible that one codex would be simultaneous, but not both. As chaos would have more unusual and new stuff than DA, I'd lay money on chaos being first, with a bit of time for new things to settle in, then DA with / after the box set.
> 
> Chaos first wave would include many new figures never seen before. Releasing it with the box would eclipse one release.
> 
> DA first wave would include, well, marines in robes. Less to be eclipsed by a simultaneous release of a box with robed marines in...



Well I meant *just* the codices with the starter. Then say, chaos model way later this year, DA model wave early next year...... But that starts to get complicated real quick


----------



## SilverTabby

They won't release a proper, full codex with no new models to go with it. Codeces make them little money. It's the figures that sell...


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> They won't release a proper, full codex with no new models to go with it. Codeces make them little money. It's the figures that sell...


while this is totally true and i'm sure there will be new models for Dark Angels, I see no way that they will be as numerous as new chaos models.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> while this is totally true and i'm sure there will be new models for Dark Angels, I see no way that they will be as numerous as new chaos models.


This is why I said it that way around. Chaos has enough stuff for a solo release. Dark Angels are marines, and most of their stuff will consist of bonus sprues and characters, so having the starter set the same month wouldn't be such a detraction as it would for Chaos...


----------



## stuff

Now, before anyone takes this as god sworn truth, this is mere speculation on my part...

Having read through the new 40k Rulebook reasonably thoroughly, I noticed a few little things in the CSM bit of the gallery section. Here is the conclusion I have come to:

-Fabius Bile, Ahriman and Typhus will all be released in finecast as they are, my reasoning being that the models have been repainted for the rulebook, seems like alot of hassle for not much point if I'm wrong...?

-Kharn on the other hand has exactly the same model, not re-painted, implying potentially a new model there...?

-On the following page, there are a bunch of marines painted in the colours of different chapters. The Emperor's children, Thousand Sons and World Eaters models are all classic models, not the ones you can currently buy in boxes of several models. Also, there are barely any pictures of the current Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons models throughout the book. I believe this may indicate them receiving a make over for the new release maybe?

-On the page before the CSM section in the gallery bit, there is a double spread page with "the great enemy" titling it. In the bottom left corner, there is a unit of plague marines. Most noticeably the heads of these models are neither the ones on the current finecast plague marines or the forge world ones. Although I the heads do seem quite familiar this may be a glimpse of new models to come! This part I may be very wrong about, could be a similar situation as we had with those converted khorne berzerkers and terminators people thought were new models).

-I also don't think I have seen the defiler of The Perge in the gallery before, again a bit of a waste of resources getting it painted up solely for the rulebook, thinks makes me think that The Purge may feature more heavily in the upcoming codex, probably not with any special characters or specific rules but maybe a bit more background about them as a legion.

By all means this is me speculating mainly. What does everyone else think?


----------



## SilverTabby

Looking at the section in question, most of your assumptions about time and resources are correct, though some stuff does get painted up specifically for the new BRB. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that the 4 classic figures were painted specifically so new models wouldn't be in there. Some of the things you mentioned though (like the two Purge models) I'm sure I've seen before, just without the name...

I guess we'll see in the next couple of months. And various nods and winks I've had make me believe it will be in the next month or two :wink:


----------



## tristessa

I hope they're back next month! I'm excited to finally bring some Chaos back to the table!

Sadly I think I've also seen the Purge models before - maybe in one of the expansion books? Hmm.

(also, first post woo! etc.)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

tristessa said:


> I hope they're back next month! I'm excited to finally bring some Chaos back to the table!


We should know early next week when the first WD leaks start showin up :crazy:


----------



## XT-1984

Wouldn't they have stopped selling the Codex by now if it was due to release next month?


----------



## clever handle

stuff said:


> --Also, there are barely any pictures of the current Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons models throughout the book. I believe this may indicate them receiving a make over for the new release maybe?
> 
> --I also don't think I have seen the defiler of The Purge in the gallery before,


as a noise marine player (over 2,000pts in sonic weapon noise marines alone) I'm at the same point hopful & reserved about not seeing any of my pink space mens in the book. While this probably means that they will be revamped in the new book, I'm going to have a pretty large section of my army to replace. I hope the changes are strong enough to make me want to invest the time to replace the models.

Also, the purge defiler is actually one of the ones on the current defiler box


----------



## DreadLordRedAxe

The dex might only be up for a few more days if it is hopefully we will know by the end of next week. I am hoping for it to be either Chaos or Tau that suddenly vanishes from the GW site.


----------



## Vhalyar

C:CSM is apparently in warhouses now and there is possibly a new Kharn model.

And from an Anonymous comment (so the usual reservations apply):



> Release date – 1st September (7 weeks he said) and it is a hard back like the 8e WFB Army Books.
> There is an Eye of the Gods esque table (Warriors of Chaos players will know what I am talking about) that you get to roll on whenever a character kills another character in a challenge, or a Walker or Monstrous Creature. There is a multitude of gifts (and curses) that your Characters can acquire which range from +1 Save, +1 Toughness, or becoming either a Spawn or a Daemon Prince!!!
> Chaos Cultists are definetely in (but we all kinda know that already), as is the ‘Dragon’ – think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis been replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it. On top of those there are also:
> 
> Dark Apostles – evil Chaplains basically
> Warp Smiths – evil Techmarine that can curse vehicles and degrade terrain.
> A new Daemon Engine – half way between a Dreadnought and a Defiler.
> Speaking of Defilers as they are Daemons they have a 5+ Inv save.
> ‘Cult’ units are all Elites and are unlocked to Troops by appropriate HQ choices, but there are no Cult Terminators which makes me sad.
> Obliterators are exclusively for shooting – so no powerfists. BUT there is a new unit which is basically a close combat Obliterator.
> There are 2 types of Raptors now; regular CSM with Jump Packs, and then some kind of Possessed Daemonic Raptors that all come with Lightning Claws!
> Possessed are meant to be amazing, and take a lot of benefits from the Eye of the Gods esque table.
> There are NO Daemons in the Codex because that is what Allies are for.
> 
> That is all I can remember for now. Sorry I am VERY tired. But regardless I have to say I am excited to see the Codex in the flesh and get cracking on some themed lists with Allied Daemons or Guard (for a proper Lost and the Damned army).


----------



## Eleven

Vhalyar said:


> C:CSM is apparently in warhouses now and there is possibly a new Kharn model.
> 
> And from an Anonymous comment (so the usual reservations apply):


I was just about to post this, but here is the source

via Neil Kerr aka Skcuzzl at http://skcuzzlebumm.blogspot.com/

The 5++ on the defiler is cute and all, but i'm really hoping they give the bastard armor 13 so that it can't be killed by any unit with a krak grenade in CC as it is ini 3 instead of 4.... Or another amazing idea would be to give it's whip coils the same ability that necron whip coils have.


----------



## Voss

I wouldn't really expect the statline to change, especially as it is the first codex after the summaries in the big rulebook.

And technically, those aren't whipcoils, just additional ccws. A 5++ in addition to the 4 HPs would make the thing pretty hardy, however.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Voss said:


> I wouldn't really expect the statline to change, especially as it is the first codex after the summaries in the big rulebook.
> 
> And technically, those aren't whipcoils, just additional ccws. A 5++ in addition to the 4 HPs would make the thing pretty hardy, however.


Considering it's size and cost it should be. In 5th edition it was bad, in 6th it's awful. It really need a serious boost in order to be playable so I hope it gets one. Especially because I have around 4 or so :biggrin:


----------



## Voss

Eh? Costwise it isn't that much more than a normal dread, and can bring a lot more to the table. It was plenty playable in 5th, and while I'm not 100% of 6th, it certainly doesn't seem bad.

My biggest objection to the thing is the model is terrible and out of scale. And the lack of base.


----------



## Vhalyar

I secretly want the Defiler to remain unwanted. Everything about the model makes me hate it.

I can only hope that new daemonic engines will go with the more recent organic look and be less clunky contraptions with spikes.


----------



## whiplash308

Well at least, according to this most recent rumor, there won't be "summoned daemons", although the assault from spawn was fun. Perhaps this means that eventually daemons will get a newer book unless we're expecting this multiple Chaos book.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Vhalyar said:


> I can only hope that new daemonic engines will go with the more recent organic look and be less clunky contraptions with spikes.


That is one thing I hate about Chaos currently. They look like emo-marines with spikes. So Emo-Marines I guess. I remember back in third edition their vehicles had faces and all sorts of things emerging from the sides. Looked more twisted.


----------



## SilverTabby

Karyudo-DS said:


> That is one thing I hate about Chaos currently. They look like emo-marines with spikes. So Emo-Marines I guess. I remember back in third edition their vehicles had faces and all sorts of things emerging from the sides. Looked more twisted.


Uhm... Technically that's what they are. If you believe the HH books, Horus turned to Chaos after a petulant toddler hissyfit that in the future there were no statues to him anywhere. So 'emomarines' fits :wink:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If CSM is really to be released in Sep what can we expect for August? Seems we might be getting some fliers, we should know for sure next week when the leaks starts popping up.


theDarkGeneral said:


> I was recently told that the new Chaos Daemon flyer (along with Tyranid and Tau) get released in about two weeks along with new White Dwarf!


Aug or Sep release, we should know next week
Source


Logan said:


> regading yesterdays september release rumor
> I dont have the codex but what I know is that the release date is pretty certain its wrong. Defilers being Daemons is wrong. But that doesnt mean they wont get some special save. And I dont recall Eye of the Gods but it seems like something Phill would put





Bramgaunt said:


> I'm staying with September for the Starter Set. August for CSM. We'll know in 1 week, anyway.





Lirith'uan said:


> My sources have also confirmed that a printed version of the Chaos Codex made the rounds at Head Office last week and that they were indeed going to be shipped worlwide this week .
> 
> My source indicates August release - GW does not traditionally send books 5 weeks in advance, so as to prevent us getting the info to early


----------



## Vhalyar

SilverTabby said:


> Uhm... Technically that's what they are. If you believe the HH books, Horus turned to Chaos after a petulant toddler hissyfit that in the future there were no statues to him anywhere. So 'emomarines' fits :wink:


They've had plenty of time to find a new identity now 
...Even if that identity is messed up, hah.

It would be nice to see the more 'modern' Chaos aspects; their new creations, daemon engines, and wargear, along with the older stuff. They've got the Dark Mechanicus and the daemon forges, they should be pumping out some interesting new monstrosities.

Thankfully the leaks seem to point to this happening.

e: Darnok re-confirm that on his side, he expects Daemons (models) and Chaos (codex + rules) in August.



> Just to add this: another birdy mentioned Daemons in August.
> 
> It adds another confirmation to what we already "know": CSM and Daemons are next, with the latest WD being the strongest hint so far. But we'll have pictures and stuff by this time next week anyway..


In any case, we'll find out next week who's got the right information.


----------



## whiplash308

Can't wait for the WD leaks. Let the speculation from these rumors continue then I guess.


----------



## SilverTabby

Phil does write marvellous codeces. And he has written this one. Finished it a long time ago, too.

And reading that post a few entries up, of course they'd release a Harpy two weeks after I finally finish converting mine *sigh* 

Still, really looking forwards to this "dragon" thing... :biggrin: Not long til WD now...


----------



## Dawnstar

whiplash308 said:


> Can't wait for the WD leaks. Let the speculation from these rumors continue then I guess.


Seconded. Only a matter of days now before we hear something


----------



## whiplash308

Soon enough we will see what is right, and what's not. Excitement take me!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Faeit 212 has received some interesting information. If the WD has been pushed back there might not be any leaks next week. Seems there will be LOADS of 40K coming out in the next 3 months, does that mean there will be another 6month dryspell where nothing is released due to The Hobbit?
Source


Exclusive for Faeit 212 said:


> A lot of stuff has been circulating recently and I really don't know where they're getting it from. I just wanted to sort of set some of it straight.
> 
> The next 4 major launches are 3 new flyers, Chaos Space Marines, the 6th edition starter set and Dark Angels.
> 
> The new flyers (1 of which being chaos) and the Chaos Space Marine book and initial waves are both done and in some cases even distributed to warehouses.
> 
> The current itinerary for release is New Flyers plus the Chaos book and half the models for August.
> 
> Then it's the other half of chaos plus the starter for September
> 
> Then it's Dark Angels and their ENTIRE new range in October.
> 
> It's a whole lot coming really fast and there's a little bit of resistance (from certain people) on the release of the flyers and chaos all at once.
> 
> That said, August's white dwarf has been pushed back for reasons I do not know. In the past, however, the only reason for White Dwarfs to be pushed back, however, have been last minute removal of content and articles, never additions.
> 
> This month had so much content potential that about 80% of it ended up on the editing room floor, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to fill a magazine back up if they were cutting chunks out of it.
> 
> As of Thursday morning though, August white dwarf hasn't been sent to the printers. The drop date on that is Friday.


----------



## SilverTabby

Uhm, the files for White Dwarf are done 3 months in advance. Everything for the magazine has a deadline 12 weeks ahead of going on the shelves. 

They _do not write it in the month before release_.

Given they knew three months ago what was in it, what was going to be released and everything else, the week before publication seems a ridiculous and nonsensical time to be changing it. GW and WD don't work on the fly like that. 

It would take something pretty damned big to change a WD at the last minute, rather than just stuffing a leaflet inside each copy saying "this, this and this are wrong, sorry" which they have done in the past.


----------



## bitsandkits

have to agree with silver, sounds like bollocks to me, most likely the shipment has been delayed by customs or some logisical cock up, i think its produced in poland these days


----------



## Voss

Yep. The WD thing is more or less purely absurd, as is the schedule itself. There is another game system or two kicking around. Fantasy in particular didn't come to a halt with the Empire release.


----------



## Kastle

man..i hope October get here quick...*pets his case full of terminators* soon very soon...


----------



## SilverTabby

In the anniversary year of 40k I'm sure that the release schedule will be 40k-heavy for a bit. There'll still be some fantasy and LotR in there, but this is the few months 40k gets pride of place. November will likely see another huge WHF release. Hell, they may even do 40k and Fantasy demons as a simultaneous release. That's not unusual.


----------



## Voss

That would be unusual, to be honest. It has been pretty solidly 40k lately as it is (since april), and it is pretty notable that it is the exact opposite of how they handled the 8th edition fantasy release. Another 7-8 month gap for fantasy isn't exactly going to do the line any favors.


----------



## SilverTabby

What do you mean "another 7-8 months"? By November it would be 7 months total (since April), and that's only if there aren't smaller releases in the upcoming WDs. And I doubt there won't be *anything* for WHF or LotR...


----------



## Voss

SilverTabby said:


> What do you mean "another 7-8 months"? By November it would be 7 months total (since April), and that's only if there aren't smaller releases in the upcoming WDs. And I doubt there won't be *anything* for WHF or LotR...


Another as in the second. There was a big gap after 8th until the first army book in spring of the following year.

I just can't see them ignoring fantasy for multiple fiscal quarters.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

We know that there will be less focus on 40K around Novemeber since I imagine GW will want to prmote the Hobbit game and new models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Faeit 212 is one of the best places for rumours these days, here is another bit
Source


Faeit 212 said:


> a local gw store had put a event calendar online and removed it some hours later. It might be, because for August 4th it stated "Codex release party", which would concur with the newest rumors. Maybe this helps.


----------



## whiplash308

August 4th release party...hmm. Could it be Chaos?


----------



## SilverTabby

What possible earthly reason could you have for thinking it's anything but? :wink:


----------



## Vhalyar

Cool tidbits from Hastings, and we can start looking forward to lots of information soon.



75hastings69 said:


> The csm dread looks like a very angry roided up oblit, the new "mauler" cc oblits are good





Faeit 212 said:


> Here is what I am expecting over the next few days.
> 
> First off Tastytaste is promising his readers something within 48 hours. Not only that over at Blood of Kittens he as declared Phil Kelly is the author. I thought we knew that, but apparently looking back over what I have posted, it was still up for grabs a little.
> 
> I expect pictures from the White Dwarf within the same 48 hour time frame. I even expect the information early tomorrow, but its hard to say for sure when things arrive. I am at the mercy of sources and when they get the information and are able to get the information to us here on Faeit 212 we will have it posted up.
> 
> Information from White Dwarf and from the codex is what I would expect to see over the next week. As things get clearer towards the end of the week, the information should start to get better, and I am hoping that there is a few bombshells to drop, as we get information on things like flyers, Daemon Princes, the new Chaos Dreadnought type (hellbeast), and more.
> 
> This next week is going to be full of rumors, pictures and other other information, so stay tuned and if your not excited about Chaos Space Marines, then at least get pumped up to see the first codex release of 6th edition.


On the other hand, there's some contradictory information about the White Dwarf.



Random poster said:


> can confirm for you all that codex Chaos Space Marines will be released in October at the earliest.
> 
> The White Dwarf features Daemons. Lots of them but no Chaos Marines. The month after is the 40k starter box so that means no codex until October. I'm a bit bummed out by this but I suppose it gives me longer to save up.
> 
> However the boxed game sounds like it's going to be pretty sweet so perhaps I won't actually have any money left.





Reddit poster said:


> So in next months white dwarf there is going to be a leaflet with updates for Codex daemons and daemons in fantasy.
> 
> Some changes to old units, flamers are now only S4 in fantasy and some units have had point changes. ect.
> 
> Also new units slannesh massive chariot (2D6 +1 impact hits) and other weird chariot thing in 1 kit. the other thing looks and acts kind of like a mobile meat lawnmower. this is in both games and acts like a chariot in 40K.
> 
> also soul grinders are coming to fantasy! has T7 6 wounds and a load of upgrades for its shooting. looks pretty mental. the model (40K kit) in the white dwarf and leaflet was on the same base as the giant goblin spider.
> 
> also new models for plague bearers (really really nice, some have fly heads) screamers (look similar but with lots of eyes), flamers (similar) and nurgalings (looks like a pile of funny little germ monsters you might get in a dish washer advert).
> 
> Also new beastman shaman.
> 
> should be out next week .


Third edit: The Reddit person posting about the WD is the same one who posted about the 6th ed BRB, so it's safe to assume it's true. This means that all the CSM stuff has been removed and replaced with a leaflet with Daemon changes and the new unit. So it does look like October is C:CSM, not August or September


----------



## Septok

Vhalyar said:


> Third edit: The Reddit person posting about the WD is the same one who posted about the 6th ed BRB, so it's safe to assume it's true. This means that all the CSM stuff has been removed and replaced with a leaflet with Daemon changes and the new unit. So it does look like October is C:CSM, not August or September


As Damn the Valley said in the comments, he (the reddit person) could have just been someone who got their BRB early due to shipping errors. It's *here*, down in the comments section.

It's all contradictory though. We've been hearing CSM rumours for the last few months, and a pair of new rumours isn't anything to jump on. There's all the chance that GW are using people to spread false rumours. Until it's up on Faeit, I'm not believing it. Plus we'll probably hear more next week, in WD if not on the site. Assuming that WD hasn't been delayed.


----------



## Eleven

Well with rumors indicating no new chaos AND no new fliers, if true games workshop has really outdone themselves in terms of disappointing us all.

I thought we were about to start an era where gws released things on a reasonable time frame and kept up to date. It seems I was just wishlisting. Call me crazy but I'm finding the lame rumors more likely to be true.

If these rumors hold true then I'm gonna pick up the necron air force in anticipation that it will take gws years to give us proper anti flyer.

Sure it's possible that these rumors are totally made up, but it seems unlikely. It sounds like these guys have seen the white dwarf.


----------



## SilverTabby

Hmmmm. These new rumours contradict the bits I know are true, but if this leaflet business is right then something pretty damned big needs to have gone wrong with the codex. One way to confirm that: has the codex been recalled from any of the warehouses we've been hearing it's been shipped to? If not, no problems with the book. Which would logically mean a problem with a model due to be released in the first wave: which wouldn't stop the codex coming out. If anything, the flyer would be to add in new releases that were ready, to cover one that may have been delayed.

I would not be surprised in the slightest to see a normal WD, released on time and fully normally. There may be a flyer too explaining a schedule alteration, but I doubt this huge hoohah is accurate. WD simply doesn't change all it's content at the last minute.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BoK has slowly started on their rumours dump. Seems CSM will have Hatred Adeptus Astartes which does make sense. Hmm, come to think of it Sisters of Battle would have Hatred Everyone since they fight Witchcraft, Heresy and Mutation and everyone falls into either :crazy:



> Working on the CSM rumor dump right now guys! Here is a tease for you though the CSM will strike with a ”hatred” at the Adeptus Astartes


----------



## whiplash308

Hatred for the Adeptus Astartes? DO APPROVE. I most certainly do hate them. I presume that would also include Grey Knights in the form of the marines themselves?


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK has slowly started on their rumours dump. Seems CSM will have Hatred Adeptus Astartes which does make sense. Hmm, come to think of it Sisters of Battle would have Hatred Everyone since they fight Witchcraft, Heresy and Mutation and everyone falls into either :crazy:


Or they could just give them the Zealot Rule.


whiplash308 said:


> Hatred for the Adeptus Astartes? DO APPROVE. I most certainly do hate them. I presume that would also include Grey Knights in the form of the marines themselves?


It could also include other chaos space marines.


----------



## XT-1984

http://www.youtube.com/user/GamesWorkshopWNT

New preview video from Gw.


----------



## nevynxxx

C:CSM release on Saturday then? Cool.


----------



## Giles83

looks more like a teaser for daemons, flash of a plague bearer on the video so may be the much awaited plastic plague bearers preorder from this Saturday

my take on it anyway, would much prefer a new C:CSM dex


----------



## Eleven

I very confused about What to believe. I'm think a boring daemons release with no codex, but it's honestly hard to say.

I'll be picking up some daemons models anyways. I've been wanting plastic greater daemons forEver.


----------



## bitsandkits

its deamons pre order, definitely 4 chaos daemons on that teaser.

plus alot of the range is still metal, far more of it than i realised to be honest,plenty of potential for new plastics certainly, plague bearers are obvious but fiends,screamers and flesh hounds could also move to plastic?
will we see new greater deamons thats the big question?


----------



## lockeF

That video was honestly a bit creepy. I liked it.


----------



## Dicrel Seijin

I wonder if this ties into the "glitches" in the U.S. GW site? 

The other day, someone in another part of the forum was wondering why he couldn't order the Flamers of Tzeentch. No one else from the U.S. had replied, so I popped over and noticed that Fateweaver, Epidemius, and the Plaguebearers were also unavailable (listed as "No Longer Available" and the green "Add to Cart" button missing). 

As these three kits are metal, it did make me suspicious since these were signs of the kits heading for finecast, but the odd thing is that the Flamers are already finecast (which threw a spanner into the theory).


----------



## Vhalyar

More stuff from Hastings!



75hastings69 said:


> I was going to post this on the other thread but it got closed, so ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.
> 
> Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.
> 
> I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)
> 
> Upcoming models:-
> 
> Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids!
> Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version
> Dragon flyer is ok
> Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy
> Warp smith
> Apostles
> Cultists
> Some odd walker thing
> New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!)
> Chosen very nice too


So basically he confirms what Neil Kerr had said. You can find out the rumors he posted here. I'm getting all antsy now with expectations!

And yeah, no codex this month, or on September. Not even sure about October


----------



## Bindi Baji

No delays, CSM are due after daemons and they always have been


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

screw the shitty ass finecast, give us the chaos dex, nao. we kniow its basically done.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Looked at the GW vid and the daemons you see flashing are just pictures from different parts of the current Daemons codex. If we dont get a codex next month it's probably due in October.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

MadCowCrazy said:


> Looked at the GW vid and the daemons you see flashing are just pictures from different parts of the current Daemons codex. If we dont get a codex next month it's probably due in October.


I know, its stupid shitty finecast, thats why im saying screw that, give me the chaos dex.

Ive heard that its going to be CSM then WoC though, not the other way around.


----------



## Vhalyar

The_Werewolf_Arngeirr said:


> I know, its stupid shitty finecast, thats why im saying screw that, give me the chaos dex.
> 
> Ive heard that its going to be CSM then WoC though, not the other way around.


Hastings has confirmed that the Plaguebearers are plastic.


----------



## Ravner298

Dicrel Seijin said:


> I wonder if this ties into the "glitches" in the U.S. GW site?
> 
> The other day, someone in another part of the forum was wondering why he couldn't order the Flamers of Tzeentch. No one else from the U.S. had replied, so I popped over and noticed that Fateweaver, Epidemius, and the Plaguebearers were also unavailable (listed as "No Longer Available" and the green "Add to Cart" button missing).
> 
> As these three kits are metal, it did make me suspicious since these were signs of the kits heading for finecast, but the odd thing is that the Flamers are already finecast (which threw a spanner into the theory).


/wave

Haven't seen a reply from GW, but after reading through the last few pages of this thread and getting caught up to date it seems more than likely what is going on. I'm not sure why they'd remake flamers (the rest are obvious as to why) because they were already finecast......why waste the time/resources if they were just going to scrap them and remake the kit into plastic? I guess we'll find out shortly. I play CD and CSM so I could care less which army gets some of my money first.


----------



## Vhalyar

Ravner298 said:


> why waste the time/resources if they were just going to scrap them and remake the kit into plastic?


Because it's a cheap stop-gap. They did this with the Hive Tyrant, so it's not a new concept.


----------



## whiplash308

Could be either the hinting of a C:CD, or simply just a model release. More likely than not, it'll be the model release..but then again my memory ceases me if GW actually does a teaser video just for models. Isn't it usually something bigger, like a codex or something? If it's a new C:CD, I'll enjoy it just the same. I bought Daemonettes the other day with no Daemon codex. How smart.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I guess we should see a code number list soon showing what's to be released next month.
If it's only Daemons then I guess the CSM in October rumour is true.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some info on Daemons
Source


> Release Date: Unknown.
> However there are rumours that a release of models is coming very soon. (Harry)Next month ... in next months white Dwarf (Kijamon)
> 
> Author:
> There are no rumours of a book at all. Just a wave of models. ( Harry)
> 
> Rules:
> Army book update sheet/leaflet in next months White Dwarf with new rules and updates.
> 
> Models:
> Plastic Plague Bearers. (Erazmus_M_Wattle, manickZe, Harry)
> Finecast screamers ... not the old models. New sculpts. (Erazmus_M_Wattle)
> Some BIG , gribbly monster type thing. (Not a mammoth. Not a Greater Daemon).(Harry) Nurgle specific? (Harry)
> Flying? chariot. (Harry, Erazmus_M_Wattle)
> Herald of Slaanesh on chariot been spotted in warehouses.(Silvertounge)
> Soulgrinders in fantasy. Massive rectangle base. (Erazmuz_M_Wattle) This must be the big thing on a monster base I heard about. I wasn't expecting a soul grinder ... Nurgle speciific thing was (clearly)my incorrect assumption. (Harry)
> 
> This just in from Rixitotal who has read next months White Dwarf:
> 
> "So in next months white dwarf there is going to be a leaflet with updates for Codex daemons and daemons in fantasy.
> Some changes to old units, flamers are now only S4 in fantasy and some units have had point changes. ect.
> Also new units slannesh massive chariot (2D6 +1 impact hits) and other weird chariot thing in 1 kit. the other thing looks and acts kind of like a mobile meat lawnmower. This is in both games and acts like a chariot in 40K.
> Soul grinders are coming to fantasy! has T7 6 wounds and a load of upgrades for its shooting. looks pretty mental.
> The model (40K kit) in the white dwarf and leaflet was on the same base as the giant goblin spider.
> New models for plague bearers (really really nice, some have fly heads)
> Screamers (look similar but with lots of eyes),
> Flamers (similar)
> Nurgalings (looks like a pile of funny little germ monsters you might get in a dish washer advert).
> 
> More confirmation of this and some more details from my inbox:
> 
> Chariot kit has two builds. One has four daemonettes and a herald called an exalted with a big whip. The other build has the exalted on her own but the chariot is dragging spiked / bladed rollers behind it.
> 
> Soul grinders comes on the same base as the Arachnarok spider. Shooting attacks. One attack works like grape shot but can be upgraded. Another works like a stone thrower.
> 
> Blue Scribes gets a mini. More Dais than disc.
> 
> Further Down The road:
> 
> All 4 greater Deamons will get plastic kits (with head/weapon options plus wfb/40k specific bits on sprues) and that there will be "resin conversion packs" to make "named greater Deamons". (Hastings) No idea of timescales on this. I am not expecting them to arrive together Or with this wave. (Harry)
> Jes Goodwin is rumoured to be doing the Bloodthirster. No timescale for this. (NatTreehouse)
> 
> BRING IT ON!


----------



## SilverTabby

If that chaps read the WD, why so vague? Surely he should be able to name the things, as they wouldn't label them as 'wierd chariot things'. 

WD doesn't come back until 2 days or so before it's shipped, is he from the printers? Wd don't get their copies before then...

Feel my sceptisism for those claiming to have the mag before those at Head Office...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BoKs first big rumours dumb is here
Source


> *–Important Designer Note–
> *
> The new CSM codex is not a return to the 3rd edition codex, this is the successor to Gav Thorpe’s creation– the current CSM codex. Unlike before Phil Kelly was put in charge of building from the ground up; Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, and Orks codexes he instead has taken a much more subtle approach with the CSM Codex. This is not the reinvention of the wheel at its core this is a validation for Gav Thorpe and perhaps if you could ask Gav, Phil Kelly’s CSM codex would have been the codex he wished he could have written, but wasn’t allowed to.
> 
> *–What will be Released–*
> 
> We will know if GW has changed policy. This codex will reveal if GW has abandoned the wave method to model release with a new codex or if they have stopped caring and show you all the new models even if they don’t come out right away.
> 
> Finecast: Dark Apostle, Warsmith, New Lord, Oblits, All Old Special Characters not updated already
> 
> New Plastic: Dragon, Raptors, Dreadnaught, Demon Engine, Assault Oblits, Chosen
> 
> Upgrade Packs: Plague Marines, 1k Sons, Emperor’s Children
> 
> *–General Changes–*
> 
> Almost all of the old units are either the same point cost or have gotten cheaper. With the notable exceptions of Chosen, Terminators, Defilers getting more expensive. The notable cheaper ones being basic CSM, Oblits, Zerkers, The CSM is really an upgrade codex, while things have gotten cheaper you will be hard pressed to keep your units inexpensive with all the wargear you can add. The cheaper units doesn’t come without a cost as well, almost all units saw a LD drop. Also you will start to see a lot of the new USRs in the CSM book.
> 
> * –What has stayed the Same–*
> 
> The Cult units are the same in stats and basic wargear. No new Spacial Characters. Abbadon is still the only one with Eternal Warrior. Demon Weapons still can kill you. The Dreadnaught is still Crazy. The unit sizes have stayed the same as well as the wargear options found in the old codex; e.g. Chosen can still get a butt load special weapons.
> 
> *–Psychic Powers–*
> 
> As can you expect each Chaos God gives their chosen Sorcerer access to their own set of spells. That allows you to pick from Basic Spells and the new ones for each God. If anyone was wondering Lash of Submission is gone.
> 
> Ok now that we got the basics out-of-the-way let us get to the good stuff
> 
> *–Daemons–*
> 
> A good number of units in the CSM codex have this USR.
> 
> Raptors
> Oblits
> CC Oblit
> Defilers
> Demon Engines
> Dragons
> Possessed
> Demon Prince
> 
> *–It Will Not Die–*
> 
> Wonder who was getting this new USR well you guessed it CSM is.
> 
> Dragons
> Defilers
> Demon Engines
> 
> *–Demon Possessed–*
> 
> Demon possessed just got a whole bunch cuter really. Instead of not being able to embark in demon possessed vehicles they now will only eat one of your guys and repair itself. Otherwise works the same way as before lose BS and ignore shaken and stunned, In addition some things get wargear automatically.
> 
> Dragons
> Defliers
> Demon Engines
> 
> *–Challenges–*
> 
> All CSM characters must always accept challenges
> 
> *–Icons and Marks–*
> 
> Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.
> 
> Fearless
> FnP
> +1 T
> +1 Invul Save
> Rage
> Soul Blaze
> Furious Charge
> Fear
> +1 I
> 
> *–Space Marines Better Hide–*
> 
> Almost all CSM units get Hatred Space Marines. Now I am not sure if this includes all Space Marine variants or just Smurfs and friends.
> 
> *–?Eye of the Gods Table?–*
> 
> Yeah this will be the chart to end all charts and competitive players will cry everywhere because it is random. All 60+random abilities! Yes you heard it right over 60! How it works I don’t know, but characters can get multiple rolls on the chart through various methods.
> 
> Time for some specific models right? Sure why not!
> 
> *–Dragon–*
> 
> Oh the Dragon yeah the model on everyone mind. This is a CSM answer to other flyers it is designed almost exclusively to hunt and destroy other flyers. Clocking in about the same points cost of Carnifex these little hell on wings Vector Strike and bring pain to a lot of things. Did I mention it gets to re-roll wounds and armor pens.
> 
> *–Demon Engines–*
> 
> The other mystery model that has been leaked. These guys sit on the large bases like Trygons. They have an assortment of special weapons that have never been seen before. They are designed for Building and Heavy armor destruction with Melta CC weapons and bonuses against buildings. They as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pens. Side note: Defilers as well get to re-roll wounds and armor pen.
> 
> *–Dragons, Demon Engines, Defilers oh my-*
> 
> So let me put this in perspective. All these models ignore shaken and stunned, have 5+ invul saves, re-roll wounds and armor pens, and can recover wounds and hull points lost.
> 
> *–Cult Units–*
> 
> I know much of the Internet was crying about them only being in the Elite slot when I first mentioned it. How dare they force me to take Kharn to spam Berserkers! Well don’t worry is not as bad as you think. You can also get a generic Lord and buy the correct mark and unlock them as troops as well. As for the rules themselves just minor changes.
> 
> Zerkers: Rage, Cheaper
> 1k Sons: Soul Fire, Same cost
> Emperor Children: Weapons Ignore cover and now have Salvo USR, Cheaper
> Plague Marines: Poison Weapons, More Expensive
> 
> *–Typhus and Cultists–*
> 
> Typhus is now a mastery level 2 sorcerer of Nurgle. In addition as reported earlier he can make any cultist a zombie. Zombies are going to be disgusting in 6th edition. FnP, Fearless, Fear, and all for no additional cost. As for Cultists they are cheap not conscript cheap, but close. You can get over 30 of them in a squad.
> 
> *–Daemon Princes, Sorcerers , Chaos Lords–*
> 
> Princes got more expensive wargear bringing them in line with the Demon Codex. Sorcerers are pretty much the same with the ability to buy up to Master level 3, but they only ever have 2 wounds. Chaos Lords are where it seems to be at, Phil Kelly wants you to design a Lord tailored to your army, their list of wargear options is easily the largest of any model in the book. Also remember they allow you to make Cult Units troops.
> 
> Ok that is all I got for now, depending on how the week goes and what GW does I might get more rumors for you, but until now that is all I got. Wait, no I just remembered something…
> 
> If you are currently complaining about Warlord traits being too random well play that violin some more. GW really wants you to use them! The CSM codex has it’s own Warlord chart, but the big announcement is some characters have specific Warlord Traits! These are built into the cost of the model, so no taking them out!


----------



## Vhalyar

... ah.

I see some good, I see some less good, and I see a lot of weird.

It also doesn't bode well for Thousand Sons.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> ... ah.
> 
> I see some good, I see some less good, and I see a lot of weird.


What do you expect from CHAOS?!


----------



## RedThirstWill Destroy

This could relate to the what's new vid on GW's site


----------



## MadCowCrazy

RedThirstWill Destroy said:


> This could relate to the what's new vid on GW's site


The vid is for a Chaos Daemons release, not CSM. The question is still if we will see CSM next month or if they will be in Sep or October.


----------



## RedThirstWill Destroy

Fair point, I'm not too sure but i am looking at starting a new army soon:grin:


----------



## SilverTabby

Unless I'm very much mistaken, CC obliterators are not plastic.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken, CC obliterators are not plastic.


I guess GW could make them in finecast, similar to how Grotesques were done. Then again since it's a completely new model they could make a dual kit of Oblits and CC Oblits.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

List of Aug releases, no CSM in there so I guess we gotta wait for September or October for the new codex. Some new Daemons though, so get some and paint those allies :crazy:


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Yes!! No plastic Flesh Hounds! I was worried that they make awesome models for them after I made 10 from the fenrisian wolves kit. And a finecast Karanak is most welcome.


----------



## SilverTabby

Hang on, 3 plastic Nurglings for $25? :shok:


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> Hang on, 3 plastic Nurglings for $25? :shok:


 Take it you didn't notice 50 bucks just for epidemius.


----------



## Iron_Freak220

Eleven said:


> Take it you didn't notice 50 bucks just for epidemius.


I guess we weren't the only ones who realized how good Tally lists are.


----------



## experiment 626

SilverTabby said:


> Hang on, 3 plastic Nurglings for $25? :shok:


Sure, because $21(Can) for only 2 bases is so much more afordible?!

It's 3 bases worth of Nurglings, and I'd bet you'll get more than just 5 little blobs per base...


----------



## Eleven

experiment 626 said:


> Sure, because $21(Can) for only 2 bases is so much more afordible?!
> 
> It's 3 bases worth of Nurglings, and I'd bet you'll get more than just 5 little blobs per base...


It the new bugling models will be similar to the foreworld ripper swarms or the wave If nurglungs carrying epidemius. 

Also, I notice it says "new" next to the fine cast greater daemons. Does that mean new models, or "new" in finecast.


----------



## Horacus

Plastic plaguebearers. That made my day.


----------



## experiment 626

Eleven said:


> It the new bugling models will be similar to the foreworld ripper swarms or the wave If nurglungs carrying epidemius.
> 
> Also, I notice it says "new" next to the fine cast greater daemons. Does that mean new models, or "new" in finecast.


"New" to Finecast. Note the complete absense of both the 'Thirster & Magic Chicken, as they have already been transfered over to Finecast.

Rumor has it that plastic versions of the greaters are on tap for summer'ish 2013!


----------



## GrizBe

I still wonder why people give BoK any credit... all the stuff there is pretty much what Harry and Co have already confirmed... and the new stuff... Its so stupid alot of it will never get in.


----------



## Voss

What are you referring to? The eye table is a potentially easy port from fantasy and chaos books past, the daemon engines seem like a solid potential theme of 'new stuff' for the book, and the dragon-flyer has been mentioned so many times, I'd be surprised not to see it at this point. Dual kits are pretty much a thing GW really likes at this stage so raptors/other jumpers and oblits/CC oblits don't seem out of the question at all.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Video of the new WD is up, it contains a rules update for the new Daemon models





You can find pictures from the WD here


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Hmm suppose they ain't bad, but Soul Grinder in Fantasy looks wrong imo. Did Daemons benefit at all from new rules, having to come on half a time a time still sounds bad.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

what do you guys make of that last pic he showed? it has both DA and chaos in it. it better be chaos before DA still, we dont need no stinking loyalists getting a buff before us as always, GW should give chaos some love, since it technically sells almost as much as vanilla SM did back in the day, and would continue to if it wasnt for the shit fluff dex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From all that has been said the Starter Set is still scheduled for September, where CSM fit in is up in the air. Some claim September together with starter whilst others say October.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

It'll be the starter set.


----------



## Voss

Agreed, the DA/Chaos pic is likely for the starter. If it was the chaos codex, the chaos marine would be front and center, not jammed up in the corner.


----------



## clever handle

if the starter box does contain the cultists as rumoured we would be almost required to have a new dex as the rules for those do not exist currently. Rules for a space marine in power armor / terminator armor / dreadnought sarcophagus do exist. Thus it would make sense to expect chaos first. Though in my limited experience, isn't the first book in 40K typically loyalist marines?

*note* does anyone else think that DA have next to 0 things making them special & separate from their Codex space marine brothers? Rerelease Codex Space Marines with a single jetbike character & a SC that allows terminators to be troops and BAM! Dark Angels...


----------



## experiment 626

clever handle said:


> if the starter box does contain the cultists as rumoured we would be almost required to have a new dex as the rules for those do not exist currently. Rules for a space marine in power armor / terminator armor / dreadnought sarcophagus do exist. Thus it would make sense to expect chaos first. Though in my limited experience, isn't the first book in 40K typically loyalist marines?


*sigh*
The more recent core sets have come with a nifty little booklet that helpfully contains all the rules & stats the purchaser would need to play with all the models in the box!

And no, loyalist marines are not always the first book. The first 5th edition book was really Codex: Daemons which came out less than 2 months prior to the 5th ed rulebook hitting the shelves. (and yes, to all you nay-sayers, it *WAS* the first 5th ed book because it was un-fucking-playable in 4th and half the rules made no sense!!!)



clever handle said:


> *note* does anyone else think that DA have next to 0 things making them special & separate from their Codex space marine brothers? Rerelease Codex Space Marines with a single jetbike character & a SC that allows terminators to be troops and BAM! Dark Angels...


God damnit not this argument again!

DA's for the past 2 editions have been trampled on by GW! Codex: DA's had all kinds of awsome unqiue stuff in 3rd edition. Only army that could play all-termies or all-bikers, plus cool special characters and rules like making every squad "stubborn", only codex who could take plasma cannons in tacticals and cheaper termie armour for characters.

Then the 4th edition Smurf 'dex shat all over DA's and suddenly with the use of Chapter Traits every damn marine who wanted to could be stubborn, and everyone got access to all bike/speeder armies. Smurf devies became better than the DA's, everyone got plasma cannons, etc...

So 4th edition DA's eventually came out, and DA's became unique again, though overly rigid in their unit structure and lacked almost any wargear choices.
However, they had awsome Company Veteran squads who could take boatloads of options, the Deathwing/Ravenwing set-ups, (which even combined bikes & speeders into a single squad), new rules like the return of Combat Squads, pistols as basic equipment, ven dreads et all.

Then the 5th edition Smurf codex trumped them once again...


Dark Angels deserve their own codex for feth's sake, GW just needs to stop giving every single one of their unique units & rules to the vanilla codex for once!!!


----------



## clever handle

experiment 626 said:


> *sigh*
> Dark Angels deserve their own codex for feth's sake, GW just needs to stop giving every single one of their unique units & rules to the vanilla codex for once!!!


Why? because GW has found a way to nicely include everything that makes them special in C:SM? 

NOTE: i feel that C:BT & C:BA could also be wrapped into C:SM... SW are unique enough. Why do I feel this? 

What makes BT different? a) no psykers, b) initiates & neophytes in the same squad, c) emperor's champion.... a) don't take a librarian, b) meh, c) make a SC...

What makes BA different? a) FC/FNP marines, b) fast vehicles, c) artificer armor.... a) give priests to all marines, b) make it an upgrade, c) lolwut? do they get this anymore?

What makes DA different? well you listed off a bunch of crap that C:SM already get... so uh... the only jetbike left in the imperium? Terminators.... refer to my previous post.

What makes SW different? a) no teleporting b) scouts are vets, c) they ride wolves not bikes, d) longfangs.... okay so this one is tough... why do they deserve their own book? I give up...


What makes Chaos different? uh yeah, daemons, chaos gods, cultists... pretty obvious these guys are different enough


----------



## LukeValantine

Plastic screamers yes!, soulgrinder in fantasy...NO.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> Plastic screamers yes!, soulgrinder in fantasy...NO.


Only wargamers can complain about getting "new" units for their games...


----------



## Necrosis

clever handle said:


> Why? because GW has found a way to nicely include everything that makes them special in C:SM?
> 
> NOTE: i feel that C:BT & C:BA could also be wrapped into C:SM... SW are unique enough. Why do I feel this?
> 
> What makes BT different? a) no psykers, b) initiates & neophytes in the same squad, c) emperor's champion.... a) don't take a librarian, b) meh, c) make a SC...
> 
> What makes BA different? a) FC/FNP marines, b) fast vehicles, c) artificer armor.... a) give priests to all marines, b) make it an upgrade, c) lolwut? do they get this anymore?
> 
> What makes DA different? well you listed off a bunch of crap that C:SM already get... so uh... the only jetbike left in the imperium? Terminators.... refer to my previous post.
> 
> What makes SW different? a) no teleporting b) scouts are vets, c) they ride wolves not bikes, d) longfangs.... okay so this one is tough... why do they deserve their own book? I give up...
> 
> 
> What makes Chaos different? uh yeah, daemons, chaos gods, cultists... pretty obvious these guys are different enough


What does this post tell me? I have no sense of balance and I'm willing to ruin the entire game just to merge a few codexes. The thing with these codexes is that when you look deep in the details, you see they have different strengths and weakness from each other. Now if you merge them together suddenly your creating a much stronger and powerful codex (not to mention making it far more confusing with to many choices). These posts always annoy me. While were at it why don't we combine the entire Imperium into one book and all the xenons into one book.


----------



## LukeValantine

MadCowCrazy said:


> Only wargamers can complain about getting "new" units for their games...


What can I say I am a man that loves armies for there ascetic flow. I know its a bit weird to complain about a new unit, but I would be just as admittedly opposed if they gave my army a landraider in fantasy. Sure its a nice boast but I would be sickened by how it breaks with the army, and the flow of the system.

I know I am not the only one who has these sentiments am I?


----------



## SilverTabby

Defilers in fantasy, no. Soulgrinders, with the removel of the guns or changing them to look more cannonesque? Maybe. 

The mechanical bits don't look steampunk enough for fantasy imho, but I can see how it might work...


----------



## bitsandkits

why are we ok with deamons in 40k without a gun to scratch there asses with yet we cant accept a deamon engine in fantasy? plus a soulgrinder is no more mechanical than a juggernaught.It came as a shock that they didnt make it dual system when they released it if im honest.


----------



## newtjedi

I, for one, am massively deflated that its not the new CSM codex everyone was sure it would be all over the internet, but hey ho. Another month or two to save my pennies. And also spunk billions on Daemons for allies/new army. Way-hey!

Looking at it logically, wouldn't it make more sense for GW to release the new box set before doing CSM and SM/DA codex as a dual release/quite soon after one another...? Please don't bite my head off if not!


----------



## LukeValantine

bitsandkits said:


> why are we ok with deamons in 40k without a gun to scratch there asses with yet we cant accept a deamon engine in fantasy? plus a soulgrinder is no more mechanical than a juggernaught.It came as a shock that they didnt make it dual system when they released it if im honest.


....You mean the thing that looks like a defiler with a daemon growing out of it? Seriously? I know its a mater of taste, but come the hell on are people lying to themselves or am I just crazy. Because giant mechanical spiders with pistons and what looks like a combustion engine is not something I think jells with the daemons fantasy army. Also no one said people where ok with daemons in 40k having virtually no guns, but it was a design choice made apparently based on the accepted model range that inspired the army. 

I myself play daemons and I still think its a dumb idea, without a added sprue for fantasy swaps the model looks and feels out of place. As it is the model is far to robotic, and to large to hide the fact its the odd man out in any fantasy army, even with clever painting. Hell the old metal csm dreadnought looks more warhammer fantasy then a soul grinder.

Mind you none of this has any bearing as its going to happen regardless, but I wish people wouldn't blindly rush to its defense, you know it looks off in fantasy. To what degree is the only real debate.


----------



## slaaneshy

Maybe my recollection is fuzzy...but I seem to recall very early edition of warhammer could have some cross over with some 40k stuff - power fists, plasma guns and stuff??


----------



## experiment 626

LukeValantine said:


> ....You mean the thing that looks like a defiler with a daemon growing out of it? Seriously? I know its a mater of taste, but come the hell on are people lying to themselves or am I just crazy. Because giant mechanical spiders with pistons and what looks like a combustion engine is not something I think jells with the daemons fantasy army. Also no one said people where ok with daemons in 40k having virtually no guns, but it was a design choice made apparently based on the accepted model range that inspired the army.
> 
> I myself play daemons and I still think its a dumb idea, without a added sprue for fantasy swaps the model looks and feels out of place. As it is the model is far to robotic, and to large to hide the fact its the odd man out in any fantasy army, even with clever painting. Hell the old metal csm dreadnought looks more warhammer fantasy then a soul grinder.
> 
> Mind you none of this has any bearing as its going to happen regardless, but I wish people wouldn't blindly rush to its defense, you know it looks off in fantasy. To what degree is the only real debate.


I'm actually hoping this means that when the proper new codex & army book are released, (supoosedly next year), that GW will take the oppertunity to re-design our daemon engines to be more organic and less outright technilogical in appearence.

Maybe they'll go so far as to re-cut the Soul Grinder to give it some sharper detail and make it a bit more distinct than the defiler?! Of corse, doing that is also a good way for them to increase the price of it too!


----------



## LukeValantine

I am also hoping for a more organic soulgrinder next edition. Although you are probably right about the drastic price increase by time it comes around in 2-3 years. Still glad that they nerfed the flamers in fantasy and made them more usful in 40k. I hated facing flamers in fantasy I lost a entire 20 man unit in a single turn to 3 of them, and 40k daemons need the edge.


----------



## bitsandkits

slaaneshy said:


> Maybe my recollection is fuzzy...but I seem to recall very early edition of warhammer could have some cross over with some 40k stuff - power fists, plasma guns and stuff??


its not fuzzy at all, chaos has always had a foot in both "universes" and linked them both, it was only in later years that writers felt uncomfortable with it and started putting stuff into neat boxes, we used to have very medieval shit running around in 40k and very scifi stuff running around in warhammer, which was why im happy for the soul grinder to be in fantasy, and its fine how it is.

Also it good for deamon players, they can a fantasy and 40k army for the price of one and all units can be now used in both systems, a good move by GW in my opinion. 

For me the company seems to be looking very inward to a time when everything was a possibility and that was the time when they were the most popular, this last year has felt alot like the early nineties, Infact with the deamon leaflet in WD its very nineties, back then it was the realm of chaos books which were really defining chaos for both systems,but it meant rules in white dwarf none the less.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The Albion campaign had weapon rewards that had basically the same rules as 40k weapons, like a gauntlet that doubled strength but struck last etc.


----------



## slaaneshy

bitsandkits said:


> its not fuzzy at all, chaos has always had a foot in both "universes" and linked them both, it was only in later years that writers felt uncomfortable with it and started putting stuff into neat boxes, we used to have very medieval shit running around in 40k and very scifi stuff running around in warhammer, which was why im happy for the soul grinder to be in fantasy, and its fine how it is.
> 
> Also it good for deamon players, they can a fantasy and 40k army for the price of one and all units can be now used in both systems, a good move by GW in my opinion.
> 
> For me the company seems to be looking very inward to a time when everything was a possibility and that was the time when they were the most popular, this last year has felt alot like the early nineties, Infact with the deamon leaflet in WD its very nineties, back then it was the realm of chaos books which were really defining chaos for both systems,but it meant rules in white dwarf none the less.


Didn't think I was going crazy! And I agree...it harks to the good years (maybe it's an age thing) and I too like this development! 
Who knows...maybe the dragon in the chaos marine book will actually be a dragon - fantasy style!! Khorne Berzerker on a dragon....oooh yeah!!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some info regarding the Daemon changes and units in the WD
Source


Loken said:


> Screamers
> 
> Screamers now cost 9 more points per model and have two wounds, 3 attacks at S5 AP2 with armourbane. Better against most vehicles. Probably a bit worse against Land Raiders, but I haven't done the math yet.
> 
> Update: A single screamer has a 21% chance to blow up a Land Raider under the new rules and a 19% chance to do it under the current rules. Pretty much unchanged.
> 
> They also get a slashing attack that works like a vector strike if they turboboost. It's d3 S4 AP- hits which stinks, but it does say that hits are resolved from where they end their move, which kind of gives you a clue about how you should resolve vector strikes.
> 
> Screamers are now terminator killers in addition to anti-armor thanks to 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge at I4. They lost their 4+ save, which is now 5+.
> 
> Hellflayer
> 
> The new fast attack choice. You can only have a squad of one (LOLwhut?!). It costs 10 points more than a naked Herald. It's a non-skimmer chariot that is fast and open-topped with AV 11 (Immune to bolters) and two hull points. Its Hammer of Wrath attacks are S4 AP- rending and it deals an extra D6 HOW attacks for each hull point it has left, (so 2D6 HOW attacks at full HP.). Terrible!
> 
> Soulscent allows the Alluress to take a few more swings for each unsaved wound caused by the HOW attacks before she almost certainly dies. This makes it worth 20 points more than aSeeker Chariot.
> 
> It is Fast and Fleet so it can move 12" after deep striking and reroll the charge move.
> 
> This is a disappointing unit. Why only one per squad? If you have a few points left over for a bugsmasher I guess you could field this.
> 
> Seeker Chariots and Exalted Seeker Chariots
> 
> Ok so these come in a squadron of 1-3 and have Fleshshredder but not Soulscent. They are on friggin huge bases so you'd better have a lot of space to deep strike them.
> 
> The exalted chariot has 4 HP so can do 4D6 HOW hits. A squadron could do up to 12D6 HOW hits for 270 points. Which gets you about 7 rending hits plus 36 S4 hits on average. This will kill most anything that is not flying or a Land Raider or Draigowing. It had better, too because those Alluresses will not survive combat.
> 
> So here's the question. A Herald of Slaanesh can take a Seeker Chariot. Can it join a squadron of Seeker Chariots? It seems like they should be able to, but I can't find a clear answer in the rulebook.
> 
> Here's the next question. The Alluress dies if the Chariot is blowed up, but does the Herald? I'm inclined to say no because it's an IC and would probably be allowed to get off just like the Necron barge Lord.
> 
> I have been looking for an HQ choice to bridge the gap between 2k point games and 1500 and below since Heralds are all flawed and GDs are too expensive. A Herald on a Seeker Chariot may be the answer.
> 
> Flamers
> 
> HEY! GW realized these guys were horrible so they made them somewhat better. The cost is dropped 12 points (I think that's a 3, not a 5), they have 2 wounds and I4. You can now take a 5 point upgrade character who is there for Look Out Sir! and not for the extra attack on his profile.
> 
> Oh and you can't take Bolt of Tzeentch anymore (Sob!)
> 
> It is now a viable strategy to run a Herald on a disk with this unit for LoS wound allocation. In fact, it's a better idea than a Tzerald on a chariot. They may just survive long enough to reach spitting distance.
> 
> Oh, by the way, the save is 5+ now.
> 
> I think they're still not as good as Fiends, but definitely much improved.
> 
> 
> We are pretty close to the release date, so I am guessing the above is right on!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Question: Should I bother with Chaos Daemons rumours in this thread? As the CSM codex doesn't have daemons any more (though it does have units with the daemon rule) as Daemons are now taken as Allies and not as codex units.

I wonder if the CSM codex will contain banners etc that allow Daemons to deepstrike without scattering? Perhaps it will simply say "Units that contain models with the daemon rule that deepstrikes within 6" of a banner doesn't scatter".

Here is a pretty useless Q&A that doesn't really answer much, putting it here since someone might find it interesting

via TastyTaste on Blood of Kittens
So does Soul Blaze replace the AP3 on 1k sons bolters, or is it in addition to it? And since rapid fire weapons can be fired on the move now, do they still have SnP?
[Are just like before, but with Soulfire]
They are just like
1) do Chaos bikes get a reasonable price reduction, similar to C:SM ones?
[No Idea]
2) do Havoc weapons options get cheaper?
[Yes almost as cheap as Long Fangs]
3) do Terminators come standard with Power Axes in their new cost?
[I think you still get to pick Sword or Axe your choice]
4) are there any FOC shenanigans like moving Terminators, Bikes or Raptors to troops?
[Nope just cult troops]
Do the Thousand Sons get any new options (say, like Heavy Bolters?)?
[None that I know of]
Even with all those upgrades and tables, the codex somehow sounds ”down to earth” like the current DA codex. Does it feel the same? Like a careful approach to a new edition of rules?
[Seems careful, I would say they are just copying there approach they used with Fantasy]
- How do Icons and Marks work? Are Icons still bound to one model and lost whet it dies?
[No idea]
- Can Vehicles and special units (Obliteratiors, Dragon, etc.) be marked?
[Some can some cannot]
- Which weapons of Plaguemarines are poisoned? CC weapons, Shooty weapons or both?
[No idea]
- Do marked Sorcerers or marked Daemonprinces also make cult units a troop choice?
[Princes no, Sorcerers Yes]


----------



## lord petrus sanguinus

chaos codex does not exist any longer in the spanish GW website!!, same happened with 6th edition BRB, before they launched it!!


----------



## slaaneshy

Still on the uk...


----------



## SilverTabby

My WD just arrived. No chaos codex. However, those who were worried fantasy doesn't get a look-in, this has plenty of it. 

And there's very little bar daemons, in a very real sense. The chariots are gorgeous though: when it isn't stupidly late I'll be having a closer look at those for my slaaneshi force. 

The rules booklet is one way up for fantasy, the other way up for 40k. The Exalted Alluress is just a daemonette (complete with 1 wound), I'm not sure why she's a character, maybe it's an obscure rules thing. She can't get off, but I haven't read the chariot rules in the BRB to see if it's relevant. Can riders be killed off?

Anyway, off to bed. I'm sure other mags will start arriving in the morning.

Oh, and the inside back cover is a DA librarian frying a chaos marine. Old picture, black and white. Says the next WD is out august 25th...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As far as I know if a character is on a chariot they can make attacks in combat using all special rules for their weapons. As the Necrons are the only ones to have a chariot (before this new one) they dont have an attack profile, they are just vehicles that can perform Hammer of Wrath attacks and nothing else, with the character on them they can attack as well. They can't be locked in combat though.

So from what I can tell if you take a whole unit of these chariots, 3 in a squad and I read they do D6 attacks for every wound they have and they start with 4 wounds each. So you can do 12D6 attacks on a charge, 0 if you get charged though.

If the chariot has Fleet the rider can perform sweeping advances as well if I remember correctly...


----------



## clever handle

Necrosis said:


> What does this post tell me? I have no sense of balance and I'm willing to ruin the entire game just to merge a few codexes. The thing with these codexes is that when you look deep in the details, you see they have different strengths and weakness from each other. Now if you merge them together suddenly your creating a much stronger and powerful codex (not to mention making it far more confusing with to many choices). These posts always annoy me. While were at it why don't we combine the entire Imperium into one book and all the xenons into one book.


Sure thing boss, but you'll find that Ulthwe craftworld eldar play differently according to fluff than Saim-Han craftworld eldar; all craftworld eldar play differently than exodite eldar. Do they all deserve codecies because they're different and unique?

Bad Moonz orks have a different feel & tactical approach then Spead Freaks, surely they all deserve their own codecies as well?

Surely you can accept that Thousand Sons chaos marines are drastically different from World Eaters, therefore they deserve their own codecies as well?

What about IG? The death corps fight very differently than the catachans, surely there should be a codex for each regiment of imperial guard?

No? You disagree? Maybe you feel that I'm taking the argument to the point of reducto absurdum but I don't. Imperial space marines don't deserve any more books due to their "unique nature" than any other faction. Sure I can accept that some of the nuance would be lost by rolling all the books into one big book to rule them all, but there are ways to move around that. Give more options rather than less (hark back to Chaos 3.5 dex...)!

This will never happen though, not when GW can sell 5 different $40 books so you can build one $500 army of red space marines in fast rhinos, and another $500 army of grey space marines on giant wolves.... Your sense of entitlement is GW's marketing masterstroke.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Source

From Faeit 212 "source to remain anonymous"

1) do Chaos bikes get a reasonable price reduction, similar to C:SM ones?
Chaos bikers are 25 points each before upgrades now
2) do Havoc weapons options get cheaper?
Havoc costs have been re-adjusted to Blood Angel costs for heavy weapons.
3) do Terminators come standard with Power Axes in their new cost?
it says "power weapon" in the entry. Which means you can use whichever you model it as.
4) are there any FOC shenanigans like moving Terminators, Bikes or Raptors to troops?
There are no ways to adjust the Force Organization chart beyond Cult units that share the mark of your Warlord are troops.
Do the Thousand Sons get any new options (say, like Heavy Bolters?)?
Thousand sons do not get any special weapon options.
Even with all those upgrades and tables, the codex somehow sounds ”down to earth” like the current DA codex. Does it feel the same? Like a careful approach to a new edition of rules?
It's got a lot of random aspects to it, but for the most part the benefits are different not necessarily better (except the potential to be a spawn or a prince in one particular case).
It also really has this feeling of "you get what you pay for," a lot of options are not mutually exclusive, letting you really lavish upgrade after upgrade on the same model(s). This is even the case for Aspiring Champions who have a ton of options that will make Space Marine sergeants feel under-appreciated by their chapter.
- How do Icons and Marks work? Are Icons still bound to one model and lost whet it dies?
Marks are not bound to any one model, they are for the unit, icons are lost if the model carrying it dies.
- Can Vehicles and special units (Obliteratiors, Dragon, etc.) be marked?
Some vehicles can be marked, others cannot. Some marks have limitations like requiring a dozer blade before being upgraded to a particular god.
Obliterators and Maulers and the flyer cannot take a mark.
- Which weapons of Plaguemarines are poisoned? CC weapons, Shooty weapons or both?
Only close combat attacks are poisoned, but they are immune to the effects of poison now (probably why poisoned weapons all have actual strength now, and not just STR X).
- Do marked Sorcerers or marked Daemonprinces also make cult units a troop choice?
Only sorcerers


----------



## Eleven

Does it seem odd to anyone else that we are now getting tons of chaos rumors after it's confirmed that we are not getting a chao codex for at least 2 months?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Not really if it was initially scheduled for August, the books have to lying around somewhere...

I've made a couple of these rumours compilation threads and it's actually pretty much always at the 2month away mark that you start getting a big influx of new rumours.
GW has clamped down pretty hard on rumours though so the last 3 dexes have been about 1 month out.

It's pretty obvious someone has gotten a peek at an early copy or playtest, similar to how the GK playtest codex was leaked a few months before release. I doubt we will see an actual leak but we should see allot more rumours popping up. Allot of info could be related to the starter set as well, there has always been enough rules to actually use the models in the starter set so there might be some bits taken from there.

Following previous rumour patterns we should get a period of rumours draught lasting 2-3 weeks, then 3-2 weeks before release pretty much everything will be leaked.


----------



## Eleven

It still makes me giggle that some factions within GWS actually think that their current release schedule is actually too fast.

I've never waited so long for the release of anything else in the world as I have waited to GWS.


Seriously, have you guys ever waited for something to be released for like 12 years? It's worse than Duke Nukem. It's it's worse than any film i've ever been a fan of. It's just totally slow.

There are single authors that can write faster than the entire GWS team. And even at this snails pace, they still write in typos, errors, and oversights.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

SOME of their releases are too fast, like new rules, it should be new rule book, all codex updates, new rulebook, all codex updates.

not new rulebook, SM, IG, one random Xeno usually eldar or orks, new rulebook SM, IG, another random Xeno usually eldar or orks.


----------



## Necrosis

clever handle said:


> Sure thing boss, but you'll find that Ulthwe craftworld eldar play differently according to fluff than Saim-Han craftworld eldar; all craftworld eldar play differently than exodite eldar. Do they all deserve codecies because they're different and unique?
> 
> Bad Moonz orks have a different feel & tactical approach then Spead Freaks, surely they all deserve their own codecies as well?
> 
> Surely you can accept that Thousand Sons chaos marines are drastically different from World Eaters, therefore they deserve their own codecies as well?
> 
> What about IG? The death corps fight very differently than the catachans, surely there should be a codex for each regiment of imperial guard?
> 
> No? You disagree? Maybe you feel that I'm taking the argument to the point of reducto absurdum but I don't. Imperial space marines don't deserve any more books due to their "unique nature" than any other faction. Sure I can accept that some of the nuance would be lost by rolling all the books into one big book to rule them all, but there are ways to move around that. Give more options rather than less (hark back to Chaos 3.5 dex...)!
> 
> This will never happen though, not when GW can sell 5 different $40 books so you can build one $500 army of red space marines in fast rhinos, and another $500 army of grey space marines on giant wolves.... Your sense of entitlement is GW's marketing masterstroke.


You have utterly miss my original point and have create a new argument that did not address any of the main points I made. Thus I'm not even going to brother to continue this argument. Your argument is pointless cause it's not going to change anything.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

which vehicles will be able to have demonic possession? just LRs now? or do you think Rhinos might get it too? I actually have a great idea for Demonic Possession if the new rules about eating an occupant to repair is true.


----------



## Vhalyar

The Faeit 212 Q&A has been neatly compiled here. Still remaining cautiously optimistic, though it's nice to see some nods to Word Bearers.


----------



## Eleven

The_Werewolf_Arngeirr said:


> SOME of their releases are too fast, like new rules, it should be new rule book, all codex updates, new rulebook, all codex updates.
> 
> not new rulebook, SM, IG, one random Xeno usually eldar or orks, new rulebook SM, IG, another random Xeno usually eldar or orks.


The rulebook every 4 years isn't the problem. it's the codices every 10. A rulebook every 4 years would be fine if we got a codex every 4 years. Am I all alone on thinking that a codex release doesn't necessarily need to have 10 new models? I would be fine if they updated a codex with 1 or 2 new models. Keeping entire lines unplayable for years is dumb. I realize that it's all about the dolla dolla bill, but shouldn't they at least pretend that they care about the hobbyists a little bit? One of the reasons I'm glad I have lots of different armies instead of one 10k point army. I will always know that at least one of my armies will be good at any given time. Amusingly, right now only 1 of them is good and I have 6.


Well, the good news for this codex coming out so late is it means at least 3 months or so before I face anything that can reasonably stand up against my necron airforce. I'm going to expand it soon. Scythes everywhere.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

Eleven, you know you basically just agreed with me in your arguement, since I was trying to get at the point that so far every new ruleset has updated the SM dex too, but not every other dex, only some of them before starting again with another new set of rules.


----------



## bitsandkits

As much as i agree that all codexs should be equally updated and within the framework of a rule set release its important to remember that it wasnt just a matter of rewriting the codex rules and a bit of fluff for some of the codex's, to make DE work for example they needed to bin almost every model they had and start from scratch because the old range was utter shite, Necrons less so but they needed a shed load of completely new units because there army consisted of 1 warrior model,1 destroyer model and box with green bits on, im not trying to make excuses im just saying each codex update project comes with a stack problems that all need to be addressed, But GW are listening and they seem to be ticking the boxes we have asked them to consider. The update and release speed seems to have increased, the deamons for example i have never seen that much plastic in one month before.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

despite the Price increases they force on us every year, I think we can all agree that if GW does right by us by atleast putting our money to good use and producing more, quality, work, then we as Plastic Crack addicts can continue to, though with a scowl on our faces due to the price, continue to buy our addictions xD


----------



## lord petrus sanguinus

i hope chaos codex is for september.....


----------



## Hellgore

Anybody had a look at Faeit212?
http://natfka.blogspot.de/

you really should...


----------



## Dawnstar

CSM Q&A Compilation

Someone who has info on the 6th Edition CSM Codex recently did a Q&A session. Some interesting information too


----------



## mcmuffin

Boo AP3 Kharn!  Yay 5 Attack berzerkers!


----------



## stuff

All in all I am rather pleased with the way the new dex is looking from that Q&A article. I think huge numbers of cultists will be spammed... Also I like that the flyer is said to be a fast attack choice! Get some vindicators in their as well! Getting very very very excited for this codex now!


----------



## Megatron

Is there any legion specifics out there, im tired of the cult armies getting all the fun. I love the night lords and the alpha legion, and we always get shafted. For modeling purposes will there be any legion specific bitz, like terminator shoulder bitz.


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

stuff said:


> ...I like that the flyer is said to be a fast attack choice!


As the only unit I ever fielded from Fast Attack was Spawn I too welcome this possibility.


----------



## Voss

Alpha legion seems quite doable. I'm back to painting mine, and I'm looking forward to snaffling starter box contents for the cultists and appropriated imperial equipment. Some of my squads have a fair number of standard SM bits (the infilitrators, essentially), while the 'second wave' forces are more chaos-looking. I'm pondering adding a warpsmith leading cultists with heavy daemon engine support with advance elements that look almost loyalist- basically infilitrators spearheading a _very_ prepared rebellion, possibly one that originated on a Forge World. 

I'm hoping that cultists can carry icons, so I can tie in some allied daemons, but I'll likely do some cultist conversions anyway, so even if there isn't a rules benefit it will still look thematic.

As for night lords, there has been talk of the more jump options (raptors distinct from jump troops in some fashion). Not sure if they can be moved around in FOC slots (I don't think so), but it could help a NL theme.


----------



## Chaosftw

I don't know where to place these but I just still framed the video on youtube and am trying to make out what these images are actually of.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

page 220 and 223 holds all of those pics in either picture.

first and last definitely on 220, second and second last on 223, not sure which one the middle pic is on but could be either


----------



## XT-1984

Beast of Nurgle, Daemonettes, Soulgrinder, Bloodletters, Plaguebearers. All from the covers of Codex: Chaos Daemons and Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos.


----------



## Adramalech

I'll definitely have to pick up the new codex when it comes out, and some of the chaos plasticrack that will undoubtedly come out alongside it.


----------



## lockeF

Has anyone heard any news on if Thosand sons will be remade into plastic or finecast. I assume finecast if anything, but I was curious as I have always wanted to start using Thousand Sons and what better time than the new dex. 

Also, the first page says plastic raptors as well (another unit I always wished to add) - what are the chances of these becoming plastic?

Just wondering if there were any updates on these two rumors, I haven't seen anything in the thread though.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There are some rumours on upgrade sprues, be they finecast or plastic. Similar to how GW does BT, DA, SW etc. Then again it'd make more sense if they just remade them into plastic as an upgrade sprue would need to contain new torsos, legs and pretty much everything else as well.


----------



## lockeF

MadCowCrazy said:


> There are some rumours on upgrade sprues, be they finecast or plastic. Similar to how GW does BT, DA, SW etc. Then again it'd make more sense if they just remade them into plastic as an upgrade sprue would need to contain new torsos, legs and pretty much everything else as well.


Yeah, I saw that on the first page but was unsure if it would be like legion upgrade sprues i.e., shoulder pads for iron warriors, word bearers, etc. Or the cult troops.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some more rumours regarding the new dragon flier
Source


> via Grant
> Imagine a dragon made of "fire" and coverd in a platemale armor and you won't be too far off. That is the best discription I can give.
> Some of the concept art shows it mauling a valkyrie mid flight. It is pretty cool.
> 
> 
> via TastyTaste
> Has the Daemon USR
> Has It will Not Die USR
> –Demon Possessed–
> Demon possessed just got a whole bunch cuter really. Instead of not being able to embark in demon possessed vehicles they now will only eat one of your guys and repair itself. Otherwise works the same way as before lose BS and ignore shaken and stunned, In addition some things get wargear automatically.
> –Dragon–
> Oh the Dragon yeah the model on everyone mind. This is a CSM answer to other flyers it is designed almost exclusively to hunt and destroy other flyers. Clocking in about the same points cost of Carnifex these little hell on wings Vector Strike and bring pain to a lot of things. Did I mention it gets to re-roll wounds and armor pens.
> –Dragons, Demon Engines, Defilers oh my-
> So let me put this in perspective. All these models ignore shaken and stunned, have 5+ invul saves, re-roll wounds and armor pens, and can recover wounds and hull points lost.
> -The Dragon flyer is in – think Necron Night Scythe with the main chassis replaced by a massive mechanical dragon head with segmented wings sweeping forward and around from it.
> (True – The thing looks like a dragon head attached to the Owl from Clash of the Titans)
> 
> 
> 
> via Mysterious Guest from QnA
> Chaos Dragon (Fast Attack)
> The only flyer in the codex
> Dragon Takes out other flyers with a ranged attack
> its 12/11/10 170pts
> Fast Attack
> 
> 
> the flyer you get is retardedly good at blowing up things that are zooming.
> 
> 
> via Bigred
> I have been told the following from folks who have seen the kit:
> 
> 
> Imagine an oversized Forgeworld Hellblade fighter with a larger rear-central "body" that rotates downward for the Dragon's main hull. It is composes of Hellblade style straight edged overlapping panels similar to the Greater Brass Scorpion, and is has plastic elements representing being wreathed in fire. It has a "dragonish" mechanical head and claws of some type on the lower body, and is on the large oval flying stand.
> 
> 
> So yes in fact it does sound an awful lot like a modernization of the old Epic Tzeentch Doomwing. Basically not an organic thing at all, but a "dragon" in the same sense that the Greater Brass Scorpion is a "scorpion". It's a daemon engine designed for flight that is modeled after a dragon.
> 
> via Stickmonkey
> Furies and Greater Deamons are still coming, unfortunately, not likely until next year.


----------



## LukeValantine

Am I the only one that doesn't give a damn about cultists? Good news for alpha legion and possibly nurgle fans, but really 30 guys to get 6 special weapons at BS3? If I want guardsman I will just take guard allies. At least then they can stay back and shoot as 30 cultists even if they got 60 attacks at I3 will still get mulched by 60% of all the units in the game. Unless they can be made fearless, but that will probably mean sticking a 100+ pt HQ into a throw away unit. Kinda like trying to but makeup on a pig.


----------



## SilverTabby

You mean in the same way I don't give a damn about the Death Guard cult troops, because I play Slaanesh? More units and choice is always good, and if you don't want to use a unit, then don't. :wink:

Pyrovores are a supposedly terrible tactical choice in 'nids that virtually no-one takes. However, if I was writing a list based around forces trying to take Catachan, I'd include them because they are templates for burning people out of cover. 

Also, don't forget that whilst their entry says "Cultists", it could be anything. Acid-spitting dogs, happy bouncy Nurgle puppies with diseased sneezes, chaos mutated plants out to get local farmers... Don't feel bound by what they've written. I play Slaanesh, but am planning some heavy hitters using the Khorne and Nurgle daemon stats. I very much doubt my new CSM force will have Noise Marines, the old one certainly didn't. 

The only thing holding back your imagination is you. If you don't play the strict tourney rules, there's no reason you can't have fun with other things. This is why I don't mind the current CSM codex, because I look past the unit names...


----------



## Eleven

LukeValantine said:


> Am I the only one that doesn't give a damn about cultists? Good news for alpha legion and possibly nurgle fans, but really 30 guys to get 6 special weapons at BS3? If I want guardsman I will just take guard allies. At least then they can stay back and shoot as 30 cultists even if they got 60 attacks at I3 will still get mulched by 60% of all the units in the game. Unless they can be made fearless, but that will probably mean sticking a 100+ pt HQ into a throw away unit. Kinda like trying to but makeup on a pig.


I agree they look terrible. But think of how incrediblE the zombie cultists are going to be. Putting down 90 of these guys for 320 points is going to be hilarious. I can't wait.


----------



## SilverTabby

I can't think of many units that can take 60 attacks without having problems. I frequently run 20-30 hormogaunts in a squad, and even Death Guard have trouble with the sheer number of dice. 

Don't underestimate the power of the Bucket of Dice. No-one wants to make 20+ armour saves, so a unit that big will draw fire away from more important units simply by running screaming at the enemy. Don't view it's usefulness in isolation.


----------



## Arcane

The_Werewolf_Arngeirr said:


> despite the Price increases they force on us every year, I think we can all agree that if GW does right by us by atleast putting our money to good use and producing more, quality, work, then we as Plastic Crack addicts can continue to, though with a scowl on our faces due to the price, continue to buy our addictions xD


No, I can't agree to this. I acquired my WH army just a couple years after the codex came out. In that time I've seen absolutely 0 new models, and only a WD rewrite of the codex which erased 60% of the original codex. Would have been better off with the original WH book. 

Also GW doesn't sanction any events in the USA nor promote any releases and only has 1 store in the entire state which is several hours away from my home. 

So no, I can't say that they are putting my money to good use. Personally, myself and many others in my state wish they would get bought out by Hasbro. That's not a trolling comment, just the truth.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Pfft, we should start a kickstarter to buy GW


----------



## LukeValantine

SilverTabby said:


> I can't think of many units that can take 60 attacks without having problems. I frequently run 20-30 hormogaunts in a squad, and even Death Guard have trouble with the sheer number of dice.
> 
> Don't underestimate the power of the Bucket of Dice. No-one wants to make 20+ armour saves, so a unit that big will draw fire away from more important units simply by running screaming at the enemy. Don't view it's usefulness in isolation.


True, but Gaunts have a decent initiative and can get a bucket of rules that make that damage output reliable. Like I said they have a place just not in any army build I would field. I find large bricks of walking junk assault troops tend to be a huge tactical weakness rather then a strength, and if you don't get them fearless they will most likely auto break if even one enemy survives your return hits. I am sure someone will find a good way to use them, but out of all the stuff rumored to be coming in the codex cultists are the short red haired kid of the bunch. Seriously the only thing of interest I can find in this unit as rumored is the potential for assault weapon spam, but even then its a large awkward unit that can't go in any type of transport.
-However if they can take marks like the mark of khorn (If it still gives +1a and not the new retarded furious charge) then cultist spam would be damn scary with 30 putting out 90-120 attacks (Which they need as un-upgraded they would only kill 3-4 marines on the charge and that's assuming none die to long range fire and the 3-5 cultists that the marines would drop in CC before you hit.)

If they are 5pts each with assault weapons costing less then regular marines assault weapons then maybe they won't be just another fun chaff unit, but if they end up 7-9pts each then they most likely will only see use as sacrificial infiltrating melta/plasma holders (Which is generally a bad idea as some armies can steal the int on a 4+ meaning said units will end up just being a free 2-4 kill points for the enemy.)

Still I am glad to see the option is their for fluff reasons, and to help diversify the army. After all diversity is the fruit of life, and besides no one will be forcing people to take them so if they turn out to be shit it really doesn't matter.


----------



## space cowboy

Maybe the best use of cultists will be as an extra 30 wounds for a Dark Apostle or whatever. Just a cheap unit that can run along and throw a ton of dice if they make it to the enemy.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SilverTabby said:


> I can't think of many units that can take 60 attacks without having problems. I frequently run 20-30 hormogaunts in a squad, and even Death Guard have trouble with the sheer number of dice.
> 
> Don't underestimate the power of the Bucket of Dice. No-one wants to make 20+ armour saves, so a unit that big will draw fire away from more important units simply by running screaming at the enemy. Don't view it's usefulness in isolation.


If the Cultists have 60 A, hitting on 4+, and wounding most things (Marines, Orks, Necrons) on a 5+ [or worse!] then they aren't really scary. You don't force 20+ armour saves on the things that form the baseline of 40k, you force 10. While that's still credible, it also fails to take into account the logistical impracticality of getting so many models engaged in CC without the opponent getting a 6" pile-in anymore, the likelihood of suffering at least some casualties on the way in (large) and the fact that the majority of those enemies (Marines) will have superior initiative, and kill a number of your fragile models before they get to swing.

I'm not decrying the unit as useless - but let's not misrepresent them either...a blob of Guard is still scarier, because they have Krak Grenades and better shooting.


----------



## Xabre

SilverTabby said:


> You mean in the same way I don't give a damn about the Death Guard cult troops, because I play Slaanesh? More units and choice is always good, and if you don't want to use a unit, then don't. :wink:
> 
> Pyrovores are a supposedly terrible tactical choice in 'nids that virtually no-one takes. However, if I was writing a list based around forces trying to take Catachan, I'd include them because they are templates for burning people out of cover.
> 
> Also, don't forget that whilst their entry says "Cultists", it could be anything. Acid-spitting dogs, happy bouncy Nurgle puppies with diseased sneezes, chaos mutated plants out to get local farmers... Don't feel bound by what they've written. I play Slaanesh, but am planning some heavy hitters using the Khorne and Nurgle daemon stats. I very much doubt my new CSM force will have Noise Marines, the old one certainly didn't.
> 
> The only thing holding back your imagination is you. If you don't play the strict tourney rules, there's no reason you can't have fun with other things. This is why I don't mind the current CSM codex, because I look past the unit names...


This. Right here. My entire Chaos army is designed around a Thousand Sons force. However, I make alot of 'count as' units to reach the theme of the army. Noise Marines with sonic weaponry? Robed Dark Angel torsos carrying sonic weaponry that 'mold the Warp into raw energy' for firing. Obliterators? Battle mages that have spells that act out each style of weapon, rather than anything mutation based (since true Thousand Sons abhored the flesh change gene). Raptors? Still working on those models, but I went with more robed marines riding around on swirling cyclones of warp fire.

I've been trying to figure out how to add more units into my army; I have a Defiler that's had the main torso cored out to have a terminator pilot, and my next addition is a Dreadknight to play as a Decimator. still no demons.

It's all in how you want to fluff it.


----------



## Dazz

I am looking forward to the new Chaos forces, been wanting to collect them for a while but decided to hold off after look at the age and knew they would be refreshed at some point. With the quality of the models being pretty high i hope they won't disappoint. Looking forward to the new Land Raider variant. Hope these rumors an't false.


----------



## clever handle

unless you've read the completed codex I wouldn't be bashing any units as useless yet simply because you can't find a use for them in a vacuum. If rumours are correct & there are a significant combinatino of marks and icons with different abilities available as options then who knows? Cultists may end up alright. They may be alright without the icons.

4 point scoring units that can be taken in blobs of 30? sounds alright to me! If aspiring champions / HQ's go the way of all the recent codecies where you buy a unit & split them off, you may have 30 cultists c/w plasma sitting on your backfield objective with an aspiring champion making them Ld 9 / 10. 120pts + special weapons to hold an objective, difficult to remove with shooting due to the shear number of bodies & the generally good leadership of chaos leaders.

Another option is to (a) bubble-wrap your units & vehicles as you march across the open.

take a unit (whatever size) to declare a charge with your meaty assault units so that your opponent is forced to either waste overwatch shooting the cultists or miss the chance to overwatch altogether if they try to hold for your power armored troops and your cultists make the charge.

Rumours also state that DP may allow vehicles to "eat" your troops to regenerate - would you want to lose a marine to throw a hullpoint on a rhino? I wouldn't, but a 4pt cultist? sure why not?

From a fluff point of view, ALL chaos worshipers use either cultists, or press-ganged cannon fodder. Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, Undivided all have a significant history of rampant cult worship; obviously the word bearers, and alpha legion are known for developing infiltrator cults; Iron Warriors make use of pressganged imperial citizens / solders to weaken the defences of their opposition before the "real" assaults take place, same with black legion; the only legions whose use of cultists seems to be limited are the night lords & the thousand sons...

Cultists belong. Sure it is possible (and probably more competitive) to take imperial guardsmen as allies, but we don't know the functionality of units in the chaos book yet. Sacrifices, bubble-wrap, Icons and cheap as shit objective holders all have the potential to make cultists solid options.


----------



## Taggerung

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm not decrying the unit as useless - but let's not misrepresent them either...a blob of Guard is still scarier, because they have Krak Grenades and better shooting.


They do? Since when do Guardsmen have Krak grenades?


----------



## TheKingElessar

clever handle said:


> If aspiring champions / HQ's go the way of all the recent codecies where you buy a unit & split them off,


???

I can think of 3 Codexes that *ever *did that...only one is recent, unless 3 years ago is still recent in your eyes? :laugh:


----------



## clever handle

Necrons & Space Wolves - I can't actually think of a 3rd. Both are recent. By recent I mean designed in the tail end of 5th edition. When you only get 3 books a year yes 3 years is pretty fucking recent.:victory:


----------



## TheKingElessar

Wolves were designed at the start of 5th, but perhaps that's semantics...

The previous Eldar Codex had the same mechanic for Warlocks.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

Cultists will be great to throw into a daemonically possessed vehicle that you dont want to use as a transport for the heals, if daemonic possession is what the rumors say


----------



## clever handle

and if you're an assault based army without access to multiple types of assault vehicles (raiders and ravens) you may need bullet sponge units designed to get there & provide cover to assaulter's jumping out rhinos, & then sending the survivors in as a first charge to soak up any potential damage from overwatch shooting.

I would love if in a combat, cultist casualties didn't modify space marine leadership checks. Prevents them from being a detriment in a combat & is fluffy as hell as why would a mere mortal's death concern a true warrior of chaos?


----------



## TheKingElessar

If you're an assault-based army from the CSM Codex, you'd better have a compelling reason to take no Land Raiders... Also, you'd need a compelling reason not to take cheap Troops to sit at home on backfield objectives (a la Space Marine Scouts or Dark Eldar Wracks) instead of simply hurling shit at the opponent in enough quantity to hope it sticks...


----------



## LukeValantine

Yah a 20+ man unit of cultist going to ground on a home objective would be almost impervious to ranged attack, but then again they would dissolve the second a decent unit hit them, but having something that doesn't care about a weapons ap is nice for a change.


----------



## LukeValantine

clever handle said:


> and if you're an assault based army without access to multiple types of assault vehicles (raiders and ravens) you may need bullet sponge units designed to get there & provide cover to assaulter's jumping out rhinos, & then sending the survivors in as a first charge to soak up any potential damage from overwatch shooting.
> 
> I would love if in a combat, cultist casualties didn't modify space marine leadership checks. Prevents them from being a detriment in a combat & is fluffy as hell as why would a mere mortal's death concern a true warrior of chaos?


Yah but its probably not going to happen so sending them as bullet sponges will most likely cost you two units as the enemy (If they aren't retarded) will entirely dedicate themselves to the cultists often causing a lose by 6-7 combat res (Not to mention fast armies will multi-charge cultists just so they can break nearby none fearless unit in your army...hell I do the same thing all the time). Now since fearless is now changed doing so with cult units is a sound idea, however you will also lose any hope of winning the assault meaning 2-3 turns of fighting (Unless your using berzerkers).

No one is saying they are a bad unit, just that from what has been released so far they are looking to be in no way the new plague marines of the codex. Not to mention they don't fit in many CSM army builds (Fluff,appearance,synergy wise). Still I am glad for those that pine for the days of the lost and the damn, and have no qualms about them being in the book (I just will not be taking them, ever).

So in short they are nice, but nothing to be exited about (Unless you are someone that has no job and can waste 6-10 days painting models that will disappear faster then orcs in game, not to even taking into account that they will most likely come in 10-15 man boxes for 40-50$ causing you to spend 100 or so bucks on a gimped version of a orc boy)


----------



## Adramalech

"BoK" is short for "blood of kittens"!?

I don't want to live anymore. ;-; poor hypothetical kitties....

oh, right, also I like the soul grinder in fantasy. Chaos daemons are pretty anachronistic in both settings, and the soulgrinder in fantasy cements that fact.

I realize I'm rather late on that, but I feel it needed saying for a second, third, fourth or whatthefuckeverth time.


----------



## yanlou

Cultists may find there true role in gun line tactics and as said objective holders, also some nice conversion possibilities, i maybe able to use my nurgle converted guardsmen as cultists.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

What I understand about cultists is that they should have options for autoguns. I'm pretty sure that the leaked starter set sheet showed that. So even if cultists don't have grenades or anything to help their mediocre combat abillity they may still be better than allied guardsmen. They might lack orders sure, but they wouldn't require points spent on characters you may not need and with icons, marks and likely options for special weapons I can definitely see cultists being a cheap and solid option for including some extra firepower and objective camping in your chaos army. 

For me, cultists are looking pretty good. At least they have potential to be a solid unit, so I for one, am looking forward to having them in the dex. And even if they suck, I'll probably still buy a few as my renegades are not above using mere humans to get the job done. Fluffy as hell.....Yeah!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Autoguns are statistically identical to Lasguns, so...how exactly are they better firepower?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

They should all be armed with grenade launchers like in DoW2.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

TheKingElessar said:


> Autoguns are statistically identical to Lasguns, so...how exactly are they better firepower?


I did not at any point say they would be better at shooting. I said they *might* be better when you factor in stuff like Marks, Icons, their options for special weapons, cost of bringing in allies and the fact that Cultists wouldn't count as enemy models for the purpose of spells etc.


----------



## SilverTabby

In previous editions, autoguns have been identical to lasguns, except that lasguns had a -1 save modifier, and were more reliable. The equivalent now I guess would be a lasgun being AP6 and an autogun AP-. In necromunda the difference is an ammo roll of 2+ instead of 4+. They might be identical to a lasgun, but assault instead of rapidfire?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Legion sprues might be headed our way, sounds similar to the upgrade sprues currently available for BT, DA and SW
Source


Faeit 212 from "A must remain anonymous source" said:


> Two types of conversion kits. Unit and Character. Each legion is getting one.
> 
> 
> Character conversion kits come with a Legion specific Torso and Head with a sprue of weapons shared between all of them.
> 
> 
> Conversion kits consist of 10 shoulder pads, sergeant head, sergeant weapon, and a banner.
> 
> 
> All 10 shoulder pads are unique with bits on them, not generic and match various armour pattern mks.
> 
> 
> Potentially certain legions will come with a new / unique helmet variant (friend said Ultramarines specifically, as an example).
> 
> 
> Cataphract terminator armour is in, and comes with combi-bolter and not a power fist, but an arm ending in a stump, and a weapon sprue with several different power weapon options.
> 
> 
> Additional weapon sprues will be purchasable separately, in case you want all swords, all mauls, etc.
> 
> 
> No pre-heresy drop pod variant.
> 
> 
> couldn't confirm jetbikes or landspeeders, just the infantry upgrades.
> 
> 
> Several of the special characters for less notable Legions will not be getting unique models, but the "legion character upgrade" will be based on the named character if you want to create it using those bits.


----------



## Voss

SilverTabby said:


> In previous editions, autoguns have been identical to lasguns, except that lasguns had a -1 save modifier, and were more reliable. The equivalent now I guess would be a lasgun being AP6 and an autogun AP-. In necromunda the difference is an ammo roll of 2+ instead of 4+. They might be identical to a lasgun, but assault instead of rapidfire?


Probably not. IIRC, the difference in the ammo rolls in Necromunda was simply to represent the less tech-dependent nature of the autogun- getting fresh charge packs was harder than hammering out some brass in the underhive. 

Pretty sure autoguns and autopistols are in the summary tables in the back of the new rulebook- I would expect them to be a copy/paste job from those listings.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Voss said:


> Pretty sure autoguns and autopistols are in the summary tables in the back of the new rulebook- I would expect them to be a copy/paste job from those listings.


Interestingly enough they're not in the appendix, but are instead listed on page 56 in the table for _Auto-Weapons._
The pistol if obviously a pistol (surprise) and the Autogun is a _rapid fire_ weapon with AP (-) and thus identical to a standard Lasgun.


----------



## Chaosftw

Hey All was cruising a friends blog when it sent me to bloodofkittens.com where a bunch of information was posted about CSM stuff. comparing notes there were a few items that seemed to go into a little more detail then what was posted on the first page.

I am not going to post it all but here is the Link to the page!

Cheers,
Chaosftw


----------



## whiplash308

Nice find. There's tons of info on that page.


----------



## Adramalech

Dark Apostles
Defilers are Daemons
Cultists
Daemon Allies

THESE THINGS DEMAND ALL OF MY WANT!!

and perhaps some of my hnnnngh~aaahh~gasp~


----------



## MadCowCrazy

neko said:


> Hmm, a source was saying something about the Dragon having a flame template attack to take out armour. He also recommended salt, as he picked up this tidbit from another source.


----------



## Vhalyar

I took a break, but now I'm back with updates 

From BoK:

- The big list of GW products is an elaborate fake
- CSM codex still scheduled for September, along with the starter set
- Lots more CSM rumors coming within 24 hours


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Funny how BoK also said the leaked rulebook from the start of the year was fake yet allot of it turned out to be true... Time will tell I suppose :crazy:


----------



## LukeValantine

Death to the false gods (By which I mean BoK).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> –Special Characters–
> 
> Ahriman: Mastery Level 4, Same Stats as before, Access to Biomancy, Pryomancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch. He is the master of witch ire spells, he can cast three spells that are witchfire in the same phase. He can also give up to three units infiltrate ability.
> 
> Huron: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 1, Spells are randomly determined at the start of each turn.
> 
> Typhus: Same Stats as before, Mastery Level 2 can only take Nurgle powers, Destroyer Hive has been changed to be a Nurgle Holocaust Str4 AP2 ignores cover. Has Fear
> 
> Kharn: Same Stats as before, Him and his Unit get 2+ to deny witch and is completely immune to force weapons. Still attacks random people, but now a sneaky way around it. Always hits on 2+ in Assualt. Best part is he has Hatred that he can give to the rest of his unit.
> 
> Fabius Bile: Same Stats as before. Enhanced Warriors can only ever kill one model gives them Str and Fearless.
> 
> Lucius: Same Stats as before. His attacks are the same number as your opponent WS (Avatar vs Lucius fun times). Re-rolls all Wounds, Armor saves made by Lucius inflict str 4 ap2 hits back.
> 
> –Vehicles–
> 
> Dragon: 170pts AV 12/12/10 Can Vector Strike as a MC, Has Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
> 
> Shooty Demon Engine: 120pts AV 12/12/10 Two Str 8 Heavy 4 guns
> 
> Assault Demon Engine: 135pts AV 12/12/10, Immune to Cover, 12″ Move, Two Str 8 AP1 Melta Weapons, plus PowerFists
> 
> Hellbrute New CSM Dreadnaught: 105pts Crazed, BIG CHANGE no more DCW now just power fist will strike at I1
> 
> Chaos Land Raider: 220pts Only Godhammer variant, only holds 10 guys, still can get dozerblades
> 
> Upgrades: Mini Deff Roller Str 5 Ap – hits and double for failed death and glory, Chaos Lash whips but reduce attacks to 1
> 
> –Unique Items–
> 
> Demon Weapons: All Demon Weapons on a roll of 1 will attack user, but no longer will you lose the rest of your attacks.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Axe: +2 str Ap2, Blinds Opponents, Gives Rage, Demon Weapon.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Maul: AP4, Fleshbane, Demon Weapon, Any unsaved wounds causes instant death after toughness test is failed, in addition at the end of the assault phase any model with in 3″ must make another toughness test or take an AP1 wound.
> 
> Unique Chaos Power Sword: Ap3 Marked for Death, select any character get str x2 AP1 instant death when engaged with that character
> 
> Unique Chaos Flamer: Str 5 Ap3 Torrent, Soulblaze
> 
> Unique Icon: Once you kill a model the Icon unlocks and any model enemy model within 12″ must take Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests and all friendly deep strikers don’t scatter.
> 
> Unique Spell Book: Gain Random powers every turn can possible hurt you as well
> 
> –Wargear–
> 
> Attack Familiar: Two additional familiar attacks
> 
> Magic Familiar: Grants Random Spells
> 
> Chaos Iron Halo: 4+ invul can stack with MoT so that means 3+ invul
> 
> Flails: AP 2 Str 8 reduce WS of targets
> 
> –Units–
> 
> Chosen: 19pts each, Infiltrate gone
> 
> Terminators: 31pts each, Upgrades got very cheap FULLY kitted 10 man unit is about 400 pts with more versatility than another other Terminator unit in the game. Still has Combi-Spam.
> 
> Zerkers: 19pts each, Chainaxe Str 4 Ap 4
> 
> 1k Sons: 23pts each, Champion Mastery Level 1
> 
> Plague Marines: 24pts each, Same as before now have Poison Assault Weapon
> 
> Noise Marines: 16pts each, Must still buy Sonic Weapons. Sonic Blaster 24″ inch Str 4 Ap5 Salvo, Ignores Cover, Blastmaster 25 pts assault 2 or heavy 1 blast same as before now with ignores cover, Doom Siren Same as before.
> 
> Assault Oblits: Elite Slot Weapons act like Ymgarl Genestealers powers
> 
> Possessed: Random Chart is now D3 acts like Ymgarl Genestealers powers, but determine at the beginning of the turn.
> 
> Havocs: 13pts each, 5-15pt drop for all special weapons from past edition, can buy Flak missiles
> 
> –Psychic Powers–
> 
> Tzeentch: 4 powers only. Prime Power Random Str blast that keeps on exploding random hits for every dead model, 1-2 Roll on Big Chart re-roll spawn result, 3-4 Bolt of Tzeentch but how is a Beam, 5-6 Breath of Chaos
> 
> Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!


----------



## Vhalyar

Very nice. I wish Tasty had gone into greater detail about the Chosen though. Right now they are looking pretty awful.


----------



## LukeValantine

Yah 19pts for regular marines. Also wounder how they justify the low cost of havocs? Maybe ether are LD7 or something (Or only have bolters).


----------



## mcmuffin

wow, it's funny, i had lucius's attacks work that way in the chaos codex i wrote up over a year ago. I wonder have they been looking at the internet. . . . .

Also, i wonder do abaddon's weapons stack to make him S10?


----------



## Eleven

I realize that I'm speculating based on rumors. But if rains do end up with soul blaze combined with the 1 spec per unit they are going to really encourage may style play. I think filling out 6 5 man groups will be pretty standard for Tson lists. 
How cool would it be to have all those spell casters? If only they could take div...Then maybe having 9 in a squad would make sense.


----------



## Vhalyar

Release date rumor from Faeit:



> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> Chaos Space Marines is on the 8th of September
> 
> That said, the starter box will not be being released in September at all.
> 
> 
> Big Pause..............
> 
> It's the last Saturday of August along with the White Dwarf previewing CSM. (the 25th).


----------



## SilverTabby

That lets us know what flavour Games Day will be (as if that was ever in doubt)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> 
> Chaos Space Marines is on the 8th of September
> 
> That said, the starter box will not be being released in September at all.
> 
> 
> Big Pause..............
> 
> It's the last Saturday of August along with the White Dwarf previewing CSM. (the 25th).





> Updated with More Information to clarify pre-orders and release dates.
> The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
> 
> Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
> 
> Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th.


----------



## Dazz

This is looking better and better every time i hear something. Can't wait.


----------



## Zaden

Yep those release dates would be sweet! This has been a crazy roller coaster of release date and content changes. Looking forward to having it in my hands and on the table!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Will CSM be the first codex to have every single new model released within a month? This rumour claims so 
Source


Faeit 212 (A Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> By the end of September the entire range will be available.
> 
> That doesn't include resculpts of old models, but essentially there will be no unit entry without a model on the shelf, even if some (read: Khorne Berserkers) are old kits.


----------



## ChaosAlphaLegion

Kharn the betrayer and typhus with eternal warrior,now that's what I'm talking about


----------



## Adramalech

ChaosAlphaLegion said:


> Kharn the betrayer and typhus with eternal warrior,now that's what I'm talking about


Kharn's always been an absolute cc monster, so now that he doesn't have to worry about high-strength MC's, he'll be a bit scarier.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I wonder if those new daemon engines could be represented by a convert Blood Slaughterer from FW, I got one painted in IW colours atm but it would be nice to use normal codex rules for them rather than FW rules.


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

Words_of_Truth said:


> I wonder if those new daemon engines could be represented by a convert Blood Slaughterer from FW, I got one painted in IW colours atm but it would be nice to use normal codex rules for them rather than FW rules.


Each tournament will have its own complexities; outside of tournament play I cannot see something in the same size range as a Defiler not being a fair representation.


----------



## Adramalech

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Each tournament will have its own complexities; outside of tournament play I cannot see something in the same size range as a Defiler not being a fair representation.


For casual/friendly play you could easily substitute a soul grinder (mawcannon=battlecannon, wrist-mounted gun-thingies=side-mounted firearms, defiler arm/front legs=dreadnought ccws/extra ccw).

As long as the opponent agrees that it's a fair representation...


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

Adramalech said:


> For casual/friendly play you could easily substitute a soul grinder....


The Defiler/Soulgrinder equivalence is almost universally accepted. My thought was that a Blood Slaughterer is about the same size so similarly should be fine as a CSM Engine.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Size Comparison


----------



## Adramalech

Dave T Hobbit said:


> The Defiler/Soulgrinder equivalence is almost universally accepted. My thought was that a Blood Slaughterer is about the same size so similarly should be fine as a CSM Engine.


I'm not too strict on WYSIWYG, but I've always preferred to have all the weapons from the codex entry and any upgrades that are taken (within reason, of course) represented on the stand-in.

For example, Blood slaughterer counts-as defiler is fine as long as the autocannon, heavy flamer and battle cannon are represented somehow, and easily enough recognized/pointed out.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some small tidbits today (the hell is a "tidbit" anyway? :crazy
Source


Ravengardt on Faeit 212 said:


> this time I got something for you.
> ----- and the ---- where briefed. On two things. Yeah you guessed. 25.08. will be preorder date for the starter box. There will be a limited version with an Interrogator Chaplain. 08.09. will be the release date of CSM Codex.


----------



## nevynxxx

Ahhh, so the chaplin is a limited edition model, in a limited edition version of the starter set? Funky.... Wonder how much more it will cost.


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> Some small tidbits today (the hell is a "tidbit" anyway? :crazy


its a tiny morsel of exceptional food or small bit of information that is much greater than its size.


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

MadCowCrazy said:


> the hell is a "tidbit" anyway?


A small piece of food, from _tyd_ meaning tender and _bit_; hence any small piece of interesting or pleasant news.


----------



## Vhalyar

Hastings dropping the bombs! To sum it up:

- The big list of releases is fake like Tasty said.
- CSM hitting in September.
- Daemons, Warriors and Daemons of Chaos getting updated books within 4-5 months of CSM.
- The allies book is fake.
- Armies getting everything in the span of 2 waves/8 months.



75hastings69 said:


> To clarify....
> 
> Books.
> 
> CSM
> WoC
> DoC
> Chaos Daemons
> 
> All will be realeased within 4-5 months of the CSM codex hitting (sep afaik)
> 
> Allied contingents rumour - cack
> This release list leak - also cack (to the best of my knowledge  ) for example the tau on that list aren't the tau that are getting released.
> 
> Sorry to piss on everyone's collective chips
> 
> Very soon ALL releases will complete army entries within 2 waves (and maybe a splash release of characters in finecrap) so look out for your favourite armies getting updated and actually being able to physically field every model from that book within 6-8 months of release. Necrons are the first example of this


He corrected himself concerning the upcoming books:



> Oooooops!
> 
> Just noticed I made a little boob!
> 
> I meant to say 4 out of the next 5 books are chaos! After WoC and before the Deamon Codex & army book comes the Dark Angel Codex. Apologies to everyone.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Awww, I was hoping that release list was real because it had SoB on it


----------



## LukeValantine

I am twice as exited about the September release now that I have 150$ in store credit at a GW supported store for sweeping a sponsored escalation league. Finally a major release I don't have to wait 1-2 months on before I can get my first new model.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> Awww, I was hoping that release list was real because it had SoB on it


2012...trusting hastings...I seriously hope you don't do this


----------



## Adramalech

I already dropped $70.00 on the BRB, so no point in getting the pocket version.

I might get the starter set if the chaos minis are exceptionally tempting compared to the first wave, but I probably won't drop any extra dollars on a limited edition starter set where the only variance is a how fancy the DA chaplain is.

that all being said, only four (sorry, three) weeks to go, right?


----------



## Archaon18

Judging by is it is such ad shame you can't give DG Terminators TH/SS. Try to take _those _ guys down.

Terminators, Typhus, Cultists, Dreadknight and CC OBLITERATORS!!!!! I'm liking the sound of this slightly too much.


----------



## Vhalyar

Small pictures of the Chaos models in the starter set that are showcased in the upcoming WD:

PA Chaos Lord









Chosen with Power Maul









Chosen with Lightning Claws









Chaos Cultist


----------



## LukeValantine

The lord defiantly has a more fantasy feel to it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, bought 2 boxes of Seeker Chariots of Slaanesh from Wayland to use as my CSM allies, box arrived today but contained 2 boxes of Seekers of Slaanesh.... (already have 80 of those so dont need more....).


----------



## SGMAlice

NUUUUU! My plastic Sisters.... :cray:

Poo.

Alice


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Those chaos won't really work with my IWs although my IW are quite weird already having marks other than chaos undivided.


----------



## SilverTabby

So, who exactly is this Hastings bloke that everyone believes him when he says 'fake', yet I'm obviously a liar who knows nothing? :wink:


----------



## Vhalyar

SilverTabby said:


> So, who exactly is this Hastings bloke that everyone believes him when he says 'fake', yet I'm obviously a liar who knows nothing? :wink:


Someone who has been posting rumors for a long time with a near-pristine record and is (relatively) high profile :wink:


----------



## LukeValantine

Also he may or may not be the emperor in disguise. (Lux?)


----------



## Vhalyar

Proper scans of the Chaos stuff!










Cultists and Dark Angels are too big to link directly, click here instead.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Starter set WD pictures

























More info on the models in the starter
Source


> via (A Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> The hell brute is amazing and not in fact a dreadnought! It looks like a bloated dread from the front with a nasty mini defiler gauntlet ending in a wicked hand / claw. It appears to have some kind of cannon for the right hand. Not actually sure if it's a multi melta yet. Any rumors the hell brute is a dreadnought are immediately put to bed by looking at its back. The back is all daemon flesh. the face of the brute is a giant cluster of horns with a gaping toothy maw in the middle opening to reveal a screaming skull warped in agony.
> 
> The chaos lord/ sorcerer in power armor has a wicked set of horns and a plasma pistol and daemon sword as big as he is. It's seriously nemesis force sword big.
> 
> The 6 chosen have bolters and lightning claw dude and power weapon guy as previously mentioned by other sources. They look right out of the designs for the space marine video game. Not a lot of spikes but a ton of detail on the armor.
> 
> The set comprises of:
> Chaos (no god specific iconography thus far on models but it does reek of khorne)
> -chaos lord
> -6 chosen
> -18 cultists
> - hell brute
> 
> Dark angels
> -company master
> -chaplain
> -librarian
> -10 man full plasma option tac squad
> -5 man terminator squad
> -3 bikers
> 
> I also got to see the terminators. The captain has wings coming out of the top of his armor.
> 
> The assault cannon guy is a character. He looks cool with his assault cannon raised.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

How much Dark Angels stuff do they want on those models? Do you think I'll get away with painting them as Guardians of the Convenant with all those wings on em?

I might be able to able the chaos into my iron warriors force, especially the hellbrute, I actually wish I hadn't gone with Iron Warriors now.

All the models are gorgeous though, it's just integrating them into my existing armies thats the problem.


----------



## slaaneshy

Vhalyar said:


> Someone who has been posting rumors for a long time with a near-pristine record and is (relatively) high profile :wink:


Nail...head...hit :wink:


----------



## Adramalech

EDIT: this about sums up my feelings.


----------



## Dazz

Looks to be a good time to start collecting Chaos. Glad i waited as they look awesome and very unique, clearly inspired by Relics Dawn of war and Space marine games. Which i think they portrayed Chaos very well. Heck due to them games was the reason i was looking to get back into the hobby and start getting Chaos.

When i heard of the rumours of chaos coming out in about 6 months i decided to wait and it looks like it will be well worth it too.


----------



## Horacus

I count 20 cultist, no 18. But what a hell of a sweet starter. Even if I don't play Dark Angels, I want to keep them by gods freaking sake. I need 2 or 3 sets for the chaos side though...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Horacus said:


> I count 20 cultist, no 18. But what a hell of a sweet starter. Even if I don't play Dark Angels, I want to keep them by gods freaking sake. I need 2 or 3 sets for the chaos side though...


It's 18 cultists and 2 cultist leaders, guess whoever counted didn't count the leaders as part of the cultists.


----------



## Horacus

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's 18 cultists and 2 cultist leaders, guess whoever counted didn't count the leaders as part of the cultists.


Oh, now everything is clear hehehe.


----------



## hungryugolino

...These are fantastic. Cons include the oversized apron-capes in a few cases (I'm looking at you, Chaos Lord), and difficulty of converting due to the sheer amount of detail. Also, the Space Marine poses are still awful as usual. (But ironically not the Chosen/Lord.)

Nothing but praise for the Chaos Marines and cultists (not my preferred style of madman, but just look at all of the autoguns! Autopistols! Chaos icons! Gritty 40k "civilian" bitz!), while the terminators are neat and the hell beast is a good sculpt, if not my style for chaos dreadnoughts. Maybe a Black Legion/Word Bearer/IW force.

Wish the DA librarian had fewer robes and was more generic. The hooded robe's the worst offender as it and the robe ruined any chance of reusing the psychic hood/chest cabling in librarian conversions. That said, it looks like a good sculpt. Like the hand.

Captain is technically excellent, but not my style. A good DA sculpt, I suppose.

Tactical marines are bland, out-the-box-Reach with a few DA symbols here and there. The Mk III helmet is worth salvaging. Sergeant is good for DA armies but otherwise I'd just slice off the bare head for conversions.

All in all, I'm getting these. And as many secondhand chaos models as I can.


----------



## Vereor

Looks like it may be about time to dust of the CSMs. Those minis (especially the Hellbrute) look delicious. 

Is this whats hinted to be coming out on the 25th?


----------



## revilo44

I've think i just died and on to 40k haven,i think the hell beast is way better then a dread


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Do you think that Lord could be used as an Iron Warriors Sorcerer, it's to fancy for an warriors lord in my eyes, but I could with some subtle alternations it could be a sorcerer.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vereor said:


> Is this whats hinted to be coming out on the 25th?


Pre-Orders more than likely with a release on Sep 1st. Wayland still has that free shipping deal going until the 25th so with some luck you might be able to get the starter set at 20% off and free shipping


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hellbrute info
Source


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> There's a rumor floating around that the hellbrute strikes at initiative 1.
> 
> I just want to clarify that while it is listed as having a Power Fist and not a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, because it is a Walker it does not suffer from the Unwieldy special rule, that's why it's simplified in the codex entry.
> 
> 120 points
> 
> It's 12/12/10
> Str 6, ws 4, bs4, i4
> 
> Multi-Melta / Power Fist (with inbuilt combi-bolter)
> 
> can swap the Multi-Melta for a butcher-cannon, or twin reaper auto cannons (which is pretty cool, since that's an entire riflemen in one arm, but with less range), twin-linked lascannon or a twin-linked heavy flamer.
> can swap combi-bolter for a meltagun or heavy flamer
> 
> Has rampage
> 
> Mark of Khorne: Rage USR
> Mark of Nurgle: 5+ restore a hull point OR repair immobilized / weapon destroyed at the start of a turn. Does not let it get back up after having been killed unlike Unholy Vigor.
> Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic scream, gives it offensive/defensive grenades
> Mark of Tzeench: flame weapons (if it has any) are +1 strength and -1 AP (heavy flamers are AP3... whaaaat)


----------



## Adramalech

Words_of_Truth said:


> Do you think that Lord could be used as an Iron Warriors Sorcerer, it's to fancy for an warriors lord in my eyes, but I could with some subtle alternations it could be a sorcerer.


It could be a sorcerer without alterations.

Albeit, a very lordly sorcerer.


----------



## Dazz

MadCowCrazy said:


> Pre-Orders more than likely with a release on Sep 1st. Wayland still has that free shipping deal going until the 25th so with some luck you might be able to get the starter set at 20% off and free shipping


25% off an't it? that's their typical going rate is. No doubt i will be ordering from them. Can't grumble with getting 20~25% off really lol!

My mistake it's 20% off, i am sure it was 25% off i guess they reduced it slightly. Still better then Games workshops prices.


----------



## Vhalyar

The September release for the Codex seems a bit in doubt with no mention in WD and the announcement of Finecast for the 8th & 15th.

But Hastings seemed to believe in September and Natfka updated with more rumors, so perhaps still hope?



> via Ravengardt here on Faeit 212
> Hey Natfka,
> yes sorry I meant 08.09. for CSM. But I still meant release, not
> announcement. I asked him when he told me about the 8th, because I
> thought it's too close the starter box and he replied 8th is release.
> Maybe they're in the White Dwarf anyway or GW starts to announce things
> one week before release. Or he got something wrong.





> The same source last Sunday declared the following and has said in the past that as it stands CSM and Dark Angels are planned releases before years end.
> 
> The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
> 
> Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
> 
> Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th





> find this source very credible, here is the response.
> As for chaos not being in September: who told me September is incredibly reliable. Not as a rumor source, but as someone involved in . I can't imagine him being wrong, unless he was intentionally messing with me (but he was right about the starter ... so... Stealth release?)
> 
> Unfortunately, the October white dwarf articles are all about chaos, so it looks like we'll see them next month, unfortunately.
> 
> It wouldn't be uncommon though to release articles about the product after it's released though, we've see a lot of "follow up" stuff happen in the past.


Only issue with Naftka though is that it feels like he's just gobbling up every anonymous submission.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Only issue with Naftka though is that it feels like he's just gobbling up every anonymous submission.


A rumour is still a rumour, so far allot of rumours posted on his blog have been true regarding other releases.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

CSM release info from Faeit 212


> via Ravengardt on Faeit 212
> Hey Natfka,
> yes sorry I meant 08.09. for CSM. But I still meant release, not
> announcement. I asked him when he told me about the 8th, because I
> thought it's too close the starter box and he replied 8th is release.
> Maybe they're in the White Dwarf anyway or GW starts to announce things
> one week before release. Or he got something wrong.
> 
> Now lets get down to some red meat (sorry vegetarians, I like that phrase and red meat), I did ask one of our more regular sources to see where the codex release still stands. This is mostly because I do not want to bring forth this unbridled excitement and have any let downs. Right now the hype is so high with the starter set, I can feel it from the masses around the world.
> 
> The same source last Sunday declared the following and has said in the past that as it stands CSM and Dark Angels are planned releases before years end.
> 
> The 25th is the white dwarf which is all about the new starter and chaos space marines.
> 
> Pre-Orders for the new starter set begin on the 25th, for release on the 1st.
> 
> Pre-Order for Chaos Space Marines go up on the 8th and the entirety of their range will be released in two waves on the 15th and the 29th
> 
> 
> 
> I find this source very credible, here is the response.
> As for chaos not being in September: who told me September is incredibly reliable. Not as a rumor source, but as someone involved in . I can't imagine him being wrong, unless he was intentionally messing with me (but he was right about the starter ... so... Stealth release?)
> 
> Unfortunately, the October white dwarf articles are all about chaos, so it looks like we'll see them next month, unfortunately.
> 
> It wouldn't be uncommon though to release articles about the product after it's released though, we've see a lot of "follow up" stuff happen in the past.
> 
> 
> So does this mean that we are going to see a stealth release? Or is October when its expected? Personally I still think we are looking at September 8th for pre-orders, because I know whats under those blacked out sections and because Ravengardt gives similar dates. However I am not a rumor source, so I can only go on what I am given or find.
> 
> That basically means, I am working with the information that I have, but this one is very tightly under wraps. I think I have the right combination to this safe, but do I have the right safe?
> 
> 
> Sorry for detailing it out the way did, but I felt it important to not just drop the information I have without going into some of these details. If I get more on this.... I will get it out to the readers here.


More fluff regarding the Hellbrute
Source


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> Hellbrute (background/fluff)
> They were mighty and honorable warriors interred in the powerful and venerable dreadnought chasis during their former slavery to the Imperium. A side effect of insanity was a known feature of Dreadnoughts. To counter this, standard operating procedures on Dreadnoughts is to keep them in stasis between service, so that they see life as one constant battle, only awake in times of great need and focus, but Hell brutes get no such reprieve.
> 
> Without the cold embrace of nothingness that makes the years and decades between war pass in the blink of an eye, they are driven mad. The rage of a mind essentially trapped within his walking sarcophagus, simultaneously his freedom and prison tears at the very fabric of his sanity and it is expressed through monstrous transformation and mutation.
> 
> Some believe that when enough service has been rendered and enough blood has been shed and victories won in the name of the Dark Gods, these once mighty warriors will be elevated to Greater Daemons and once again walk the earth of dead worlds with their own two feet.
> 
> 
> Earlier Information
> I just want to clarify that while it is listed as having a Power Fist and not a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, because it is a Walker it does not suffer from the Unwieldy special rule, that's why it's simplified in the codex entry.
> 
> 120 points
> 
> It's 12/12/10
> Str 6, ws 4, bs4, i4
> 
> Multi-Melta / Power Fist (with inbuilt combi-bolter)
> 
> can swap the Multi-Melta for a butcher-cannon, or twin reaper auto cannons (which is pretty cool, since that's an entire riflemen in one arm, but with less range), twin-linked lascannon or a twin-linked heavy flamer.
> can swap combi-bolter for a meltagun or heavy flamer
> 
> Has rampage
> 
> Mark of Khorne: Rage USR
> Mark of Nurgle: 5+ restore a hull point OR repair immobilized / weapon destroyed at the start of a turn. Does not let it get back up after having been killed unlike Unholy Vigor.
> Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic scream, gives it offensive/defensive grenades
> Mark of Tzeench: flame weapons (if it has any) are +1 strength and -1 AP (heavy flamers are AP3... whaaaat)
> 
> 
> New Information
> Some stuff I left out (it was late, I was tired)
> 
> You can change the shooty arm for a Power Fist. The power fist doesn't have an inbuilt weapon though so you can't get another flamer or meltagun on it. This upgrade is free.
> 
> The autocannon is low points cost, the butcher cannon is moderate, the lascannon is expensive and the twin-flamer is free.
> 
> It's also still crazed, but crazed works differently now.
> 
> If you get fire frenzy, you double shot at the closest enemy target, not closest target. Only if there are no enemies in range do you shoot a friendly target (twice). If nothing is STILL in range, you treat it as blood rage instead. (so upgrade your stuff to flamers and give it another power fist if you always want it ANGRY)
> 
> Blood Rage makes the Hellbrute have to move towards the closest target. Rolls 2d6 to run (pick the highest) and can charge, and must charge, the closest target within 12". (rolled as normal). If immobilized, you treat as a Fire Frenzy.
> 
> Dark Apostles make Blood Rage results more likely to happen if they are nearby (but you risk the albeit now unlikely fire frenzy to the face).
> 
> They're not infected with the same virus as Obliterators.
> 
> It's not a daemon, and does not have the daemon USR
> 
> 
> The fluff entry also mentions that some Hell Brutes are not as mutated as others, and more closely resemble their dreadnought kin, but to make no mistake they are just as insane.
> 
> (So you can still use your old models if you have them. The hellbrute is just the evolution of the whole "style" for the new CSM, which is a lot less "space marine with spikes" and a lot more something unique).


----------



## normtheunsavoury

So the Hellbrute will be pretty much as useless as Blood Angels DC were, stick something useless in front of it and lead it all around the table.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

normtheunsavoury said:


> So the Hellbrute will be pretty much as useless as Blood Angels DC were, stick something useless in front of it and lead it all around the table.


? If you can keep those lascannons or auto cannons out of range of the rest of your army whilst you jump in front of it? Heck even then it'd just shoot your ass to death or assault you if you have a Landraider there. If I'm not mistaken it seems the Hellbrute has a threat range of 6+2D6+2D6 (movement, shooting with frenzy and assault).


I find it curious the Slaanesh upgrade gives it grenades, does that mean dreads strike at I1 if charging through cover now? I must have missed that part?


----------



## Dazz

Oh man and i thought the Hellbrute was a Demon engine type dread. Oh well lets see how the crazy issue is. Still it is a very good model just a threat to everyone's army lol


----------



## normtheunsavoury

You are of course correct, sorry, brain fart! 

I just saw 'must move towards nearest enemy" bit and thought the worst.


----------



## LukeValantine

30 points more for a bucket of new rules and upgrades. Not bad, but dreads are no longer a cheap source of heavy weapons it seems with the better ranged ones being 140+pts for av12 walkers.

Also from what they are showing a lot of people will still be miffed that 50% of their weapon arms are now useless (Plasma cannons missile launchers). Also the lose of the hellfire pattern is a concern for those of use that had 3-4 built with two heavy weapons. Still this kinda stuff happens and although it does suck we can't do much about it (FWI from the looks of it only a idiot would take a las cannon arm as if the cost is near what it is currently it will be around 170-200 for a single las cannon. On the plus side it now a lot more reliable and can get some usefull long range anti light armor weapons.


----------



## Eleven

i'm concerned about the part where the dark apostle makes it more likely to run forward randomly, and less likely to shoot double...

I'd rather it the other way around.


----------



## Vhalyar

LukeValantine said:


> 30 points more for a bucket of new rules and upgrades. Not bad, but dreads are no longer a cheap source of heavy weapons it seems with the better ranged ones being 140+pts for av12 walkers.


Good thing there seems to be a 120 points daemon engine with twin-linked butcher cannons and souped-up defenses! Hopefully it's not in a crowded & over-competitive FOC slot...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> 30 points more for a bucket of new rules and upgrades. Not bad, but dreads are no longer a cheap source of heavy weapons it seems with the better ranged ones being 140+pts for av12 walkers.
> 
> Also from what they are showing a lot of people will still be miffed that 50% of their weapon arms are now useless (Plasma cannons missile launchers). Also the lose of the hellfire pattern is a concern for those of use that had 3-4 built with two heavy weapons. Still this kinda stuff happens and although it does suck we can't do much about it (FWI from the looks of it only a idiot would take a las cannon arm as if the cost is near what it is currently it will be around 170-200 for a single las cannon. On the plus side it now a lot more reliable and can get some usefull long range anti light armor weapons.


I didn't know you already had the codex to be able to say what is viable and what is not... Could you please share some info on the other units in the codex, like Oblits, Daemon Engines, Predators and such?


I wouldn't bother thinking too much before we have the codex, nor spend more than a min or so looking at the Hellbrute before putting it on the shelf. Dreads got boned pretty hard in this edition, it looks cool but ends up in the same lane as the Penitent Engine. Get one to paint then put it on the shelf.


----------



## LukeValantine

True without the codex this is all speculation. In fact from what little we have it looks great. The only reason I brought up the negatives is that some of us have spent over a hundred dollars on dread weapons that are currently looking like they will be omitted from the wargear selection.

Also I have no idea why you made it look like I was commenting on the usefulness of the model as I never once commented on the usefulness of the model as a whole. I was Just pointing out that its no longer plays the same role it used to be (Probably for the better). Also if the butcher cannon is a free swap for the multi-melta but the las cannon turns out to be as expensive as they say then someone at GW has been smoking a bit to much of the green stuff. Logic would dictate that the butcher cannon should be the most expensive upgrade as only a idiot would swap it out for a las cannon or twin reaper auto cannon if they have to pay for the luxury of doing so.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> The only reason I brought up the negatives is that some of us have spent over a hundred dollars on dread weapons that are currently looking like they will be omitted from the wargear selection.
> 
> Also I have no idea why you made it look like I was commenting on the usefulness of the model as I never once commented on the usefulness of the model as a whole.


To be honest I didn't fully read your post, I just saw something about things not being worth it in relations to a codex that has yet to be released :crazy:
I just find it funny, kinda like how some people ask for comments on their new army list for a codex that is rumoured to be the next release and they base their entire list on the current rumours :crazy:

As for spending over a hundred dollars on dread weapons? I magnetise everything so I would suggest you do the same. Myself I've spent over $1000 on Sisters of Battle metal models which I would class as pretty much sub par compared to every other 40k army out there... Just be happy you can actually play a very competitive army (compared to SoB), and next month the new CSM codex might be a top tier army as has been the tradition with SM codicies :crazy:


----------



## hungryugolino

The chaos marines are all wonderful models, but make very poor Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors as is. And they look tricky to alter too.

Though those bolters...


----------



## Adramalech

October's fine. What's a few more weeks compared to the four years I've already waited?

Besides, my birthday's in October


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Adramalech said:


> October's fine. *What's a few more weeks compared to the four years I've already waited?*
> 
> Besides, my birthday's in October











September 19th is mine, September is a big release month for GW every year so I'm happy :crazy:


----------



## LukeValantine

Keep up the good work Madcow. Also I did magnatize my arms, but I have 4 missle launchers and 4 plasma cannon arms with only 2 of my current arms being for the hellbrute (According to the current romours). However I will say that CSM's are a hard army base to please as the epileptic unit and themes in past versions of the codecies means regardless of how awesome the army book is someone will leave disappointed (Stress daemons and the legions and unaligned and renegade players are put off, stress generic legions and renegades and the legion and daemonic players are in a puff). Now if they somehow pleased everyone with this codex it would be a feat as remarkable as SoB getting a codex in the next month with more units and wargear then GK's.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> Keep up the good work Madcow. Also I did magnatize my arms, but I have 4 missle launchers and 4 plasma cannon arms with only 2 of my current arms being for the hellbrute (According to the current romours). However I will say that CSM's are a hard army base to please as the epileptic unit and themes in past versions of the codecies means regardless of how awesome the army book is someone will leave disappointed (Stress daemons and the legions and unaligned and renegade players are put off, stress generic legions and renegades and the legion and daemonic players are in a puff). Now if they somehow pleased everyone with this codex it would be a feat as remarkable as SoB getting a codex in the next month with more units and wargear then GK's.


I think the Hellbrute is starter set only similar to how Deffkoptas were in the previous starter set. Reason being to sell more starter sets, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Cultists got a 10-20 man box whilst the Hellbrute stayed SS (starter set) only.

From what has been said the Hellbrute is not a dreadnought, it just kinda looks like a really fucked up one. Maybe there will be regular dreads in the dex as well, I doubt GW would invalidate half the options that Forge World produces.

Just noticed Bits and Kits has put up preorders for the different units from the SS, he lists a Chaos Sorcerer for £5.
I didn't know there was one in the starter, I dont think I've seen any pictures or rumours about one being in there.
Have I missed it? Could someone send me a link to where I can see a picture of it?

Oh, another thing you should take into consideration regarding the Hellbrute and the SS. In the AoBR SS there was a dreadnought for the SM, it came with 1 weapon, a Multi Melta (only plastic one in existence if I'm not mistaken). We all know SM dreads have access to allot more weapons than a single MM, so it could just be a SS thing. To be honest I'm surprised they actually include other options for it, this further strengthens my belief that the Hellbrute will be SS only as if it includes all the options for it there wont be a need for a boxed version. Oh wait, did I just contradict myself? Hmm...

Guess all we can do is wait and see :crazy:


----------



## whiplash308

I would certainly enjoy having this "Hellbrute" and a Dread in the codex. I still would like to have a use for my Dready.


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> September 19th is mine, September is a big release month for GW every year so I'm happy :crazy:


HAPPY BIRTHDAY IN ADVANCE, THEN


----------



## LukeValantine

Here is a possibility I haven't considered about the hell brute, what if its the CSM version of a venerable dread?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Starter Set prices and Teaser Trailer
Source


> DARK VENGEANCE PRICES
> 
> Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) - Special Edition 49 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 1-Sep-12 $107.00 USD $128.00 CAD
> 
> Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) 48 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 8-Sep-12 $99.00 USD $119.00 CAD


----------



## The Sturk

So the price is the same as the last one (I assume that's a good thing) and for $8 more, you get the Chaplain I assume?

Nice trailer as well.


----------



## gothik

seriously hope Matt Ward is not behind this after what he did to the Grey Knights....


----------



## whiplash308

Even though Matt Ward has said himself he wants no part of Chaos, I still have the gut feeling that his bullshit will rub off on (I think) Phil Kelly for this one.


----------



## SilverTabby

No "I think" about it... :wink:


----------



## mcmuffin

*Insert needless reference to Mat Ward here in order to focus nerdrage*

The chaos figs look amazing, not impressed by the DA but since i'll be swapping them for more chaos I don't give a shit.


----------



## Dazz

Yeah i have a mate at work that is looking to start a Dark Angles Army, so we are thinking of Trading his Chaos for my Dark angles so yay i can double up the force for the price of a single box set. Yummy.


----------



## Eleven

whiplash308 said:


> Even though Matt Ward has said himself he wants no part of Chaos, I still have the gut feeling that his bullshit will rub off on (I think) Phil Kelly for this one.


I don't understand the phil kelly love. Isn't this the guy that fucked up tyranids and dark eldar?

Isn't this the guy that wrote a crappy space wolves codex but then saved it by making two units that are so strong that they single handedly make the codex competitive?

He also wrote phase out crons which have the amazing distinction of being OP in one edition and being the worse army of the next. An accomplishment!

He wrote both lolhunters codices (both bad) and the current eldar codex which has about 70% terrible units. The eldar codex like the space wolf codex is saved by a couple of good units.

Matt ward by comparison has written only 1 bad codex and it was an early work of his.


----------



## slaaneshy

Matt Ward eats kittens! And poo!!!! Sometimes together!!!!!

On a price note, that works out to around £68-£70 for the set....not too bad!


----------



## Horacus

99 bucks. Nice. Not as expensive as I thought.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Horacus said:


> 99 bucks. Nice. Not as expensive as I thought.


I think it's too much for a Starter Set. The SS is something that should really pull people into the hobby, it should be a great deal for miniatures etc etc etc.
$99 is not a great deal, it's not even a good deal. It is however what we have come to expect from GW, if GW went back to the £45 SS I would buy 4 starters instead of the 1-2 I'm thinking about. GW would make a bit more money and I would get more models. Then again the market for SM would drop like it has always done for the minis in the starter.

Now that I think about it the price is kinda hard to determine, too low and you over saturate the market, too high and you dont sell enough boxes.
I guess GW puts the price as high as they think they can get away with, they must take discount sellers into consideration as well.
I think GW prices are too high but when you look at a discount sellers prices at 15-25% off it's actually not that bad. Heck look at deals on ebay for 50% off and it's not bad at all...

/rant over


----------



## Eleven

100 sounds like a great deal to plastic crack heads like us, but to a noobie that just started the game, paying 100 bucks "just to get started" is probably a hard pill to swallow.

My thoughts on the starter: I think the quality of the models has surprised us all. I think all the models look much better than we thought they would. They certainly outdue the AoBR by a landslide. They are still however not as good as many of the new kits, but it's a starter set so....

Now, I must say, the dark angels get the better deal here hands down. The chaos side has plenty of cultists, but we all know that half of them will end up being useless. Whether it's the melee half, or the guns half we will have to wait to see the rules to know for sure. The chosen are a complete waste for obvious reasons. In case it needs to be explained, they all have random different CC weapons and some of them don't have cc weapons at all. None of them have any special weapons which makes me wonder if chosen will get special weapons in the new codex. But if they do, then all 6 of the chosen models in the box are worthless. The dread looks amazing, but it has the multimelta, and we will probably all want the reaper, or the butcher if those rumors are true. 

So basically, there is something wrong with everything on the chaos side. The models are AMAZING, I love them, but the way they were implemented is the problem.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> I don't understand the phil kelly love. Isn't this the guy that fucked up tyranids and dark eldar?
> 
> Isn't this the guy that wrote a crappy space wolves codex but then saved it by making two units that are so strong that they single handedly make the codex competitive?
> 
> He also wrote phase out crons which have the amazing distinction of being OP in one edition and being the worse army of the next. An accomplishment!
> 
> He wrote both lolhunters codices (both bad) and the current eldar codex which has about 70% terrible units. The eldar codex like the space wolf codex is saved by a couple of good units.
> 
> Matt ward by comparison has written only 1 bad codex and it was an early work of his.


Robin Cruddace wrote Tyranids, Phil did the previous version which many consider far superior.

Phil did write Dark Eldar, and as someone who has many DE playing friends who all rate the Codex, I am failing to see how it's awful.

Mat Ward wrote the Necrons, and the previous one was written by 5 people, one of whom was Phil.

The Eldar Codex was written years ago, and Phil went on sabbatical when it was virtually finished. When he came back, Jervis and management had gotten their hands on it and massive changes had been made. Phil was not impressed. 

Phil did write Space Wolves, and as I understand it even without the 2 'OP' units, it's a solid Space Marine Codex, just with Bloodclaws that people seem to ignore. I don't play them though, so can't comment further. 

Daemonhunters: Andy Chambers, Graeme McNeill and Phil Kelly.
Witch Hunters: Andy Chambers, Graeme McNeill. No Phil.

Please ensure you have your facts right before slagging someone off, it just makes you look silly otherwise. :wink:


----------



## whiplash308

It's not that Matt Ward writes bad codexes, he writes terrible codexes. 

Grey Knights: Draigo is an invincible, warp trolling, I-kill-everything-and-not-care guy. Mega monkeys. 

Blood Angels: Deep striking Land Raiders. Alliance with Necrons. Sanguinator. Librarian Dreadnoughts. 

Note; I'm just saying stuff out of the things I know that's devastatingly wrong with those two.

On a related topic, I do agree that, yes, even though the initial and first payment you're going to do in a GW hobby is starting off (paints, brushes, models, rulebook, codex), 100 dollars is quite steep and can and possibly will turn off new players about it. Once they also consider the remainder of the initial purchases that they'd eventually have to do, they will soon find that, if anything, their or their parents' wallets will go up in flames due to absolute emptiness.


----------



## Chaosftw

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think it's too much for a Starter Set. The SS is something that should really pull people into the hobby, it should be a great deal for miniatures etc etc etc.
> $99 is not a great deal, it's not even a good deal. It is however what we have come to expect from GW, if GW went back to the £45 SS I would buy 4 starters instead of the 1-2 I'm thinking about. GW would make a bit more money and I would get more models. Then again the market for SM would drop like it has always done for the minis in the starter.
> 
> /rant over


Really its not a great deal?

(this is all just ball park but i think you will catch my drift) 

ALL in CAD funds btw....

Ruler: 5-20$ (depending on where u grab it from)
Dice: lets say 5$ for a few to start with (we all know we all have way too many)
Templates: 16-23$
Rulebook: 90$

Total = Low: 116$ / High: 137$

Now thats not even including ANY figs....

Your telling me that a starter that is like 120$ is not a good deal for 48 figs AND all the stuff listed above?


----------



## SilverTabby

Just a quick comparison: main rulebook, one squad of tactical marines and a captain. £45, £18 and £10 last time I looked. Total: £73

Starter set: £70 (ish) and you get double digits of units, rules, dice... And can effectively get it for £35 as you can go together with a mate who wants the other side. 

You have to start somehow, and getting the start of two forces and the main rules for much much cheaper than buying them seperately seems like a good start to me. No matter how you get into this hobby, it *will* cost a lot. Better to start with more for less, than spending money unnecessarily.

And any parent who agrees to fund something without investigating the cost first or telling child they need to part fund it themselves has only themselves to blame for their brokeness. (said as a parent of two)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Miniwargaming just put up their preorders for the new Starter Set, they have both the normal and limited edition available?

So will we be able to get either version at launch? Rumours said normal wouldn't be available until later?


----------



## nevynxxx

MadCowCrazy said:


> Miniwargaming


Ahem _Advance Order - Dark Vengeance Figure Case_ When was that announced/rumoured?


----------



## clever handle

whiplash308 said:


> It's not that Matt Ward writes bad codexes, he writes terrible codexes.


Its not that MW writes terrible codexes, its that his codexes show consistent codex power creep as each one seems to have to out-do the other in terms of either ridiculous fluff (GK slaughtering SoB to fend of the blood god...) or just silly abilities thrown in left, right & center (SW got counter-attack so lets give BA FNP+FC, oh shit, now what do we give to GK? How about grenades that make your opponent lolaweful AND everyone gets a PW that does something ridiculous to their base stats AND lets give them abilities that completely dick-over the already weakest codex in the game....)

If every codex was written by MW and released at the same time there would be no complaining (just keep his hands off my fluff!) as "creep" wouldn't occur...

As far as PK goes - I hated SW when it first came out - but thats only because it took me a while to find the weaknesses to exploit. I still can't beat a solid SW army with my chaos (but I play noise marines so.... well... I can't beat much in a "fair fight") but my dark eldar can trounce them now. Long fangs have an obvious weakness that was magnified in 6th ed. TWC were fucking ridiculus, but now that bikes are T5, TWC are less LOLOMGOP!.

Dark eldar.... now they are an army that is pretty interesting. They put out SO much firepower but obviously can't take a hit. I'm not 100% on how well they transition into 6th yet, as I've been giving my CSM a "last hurrah" until the new book is released.... DE's big challenges are a) survival in an AV10, open topped, T3 / 5+ world and b) no cross-damage potential... poison can't hurt vehicles AT ALL, and dark light weaponry isn't as prevelant as the alternatives in imperial books (i.e. guardsmen with 3 special weapons each...)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

nevynxxx said:


> Ahem _Advance Order - Dark Vengeance Figure Case_ When was that announced/rumoured?


When the September Release List was sent to retailers




Product Name Release Date USD
Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) - Special Edition 1-Sep-12 $107.00
Dark Vengeance: The Novel (Nth America) 1-Sep-12 $19.99
The Acsension of Balthazar (Nth America) 1-Sep-12 $21.99
Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) 8-Sep-12 $99.00


Product Name Release Date USD
Dark Vengeance Figure Case 1-Sep-12 $66.00
150mm x 100mm Square Base 1-Sep-12 $4.95
Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Weapons 15-Sep-12 $13.50
Bretonnian Trebuchet 15-Sep-12 $56.00
Bretonnian Grail Knights 15-Sep-12 $74.25
Bretonnian Damsel with Sword 15-Sep-12 $26.75
Bretonnian Questing Knights 15-Sep-12 $74.25
Bretonnian Damsel with Staff 15-Sep-12 $26.75
The Fay Enchantress 15-Sep-12 $40.00
Bretonnian Battle Standard Bearer 15-Sep-12 $22.25
Unicorn 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Bretonnian Grail Reliquae 15-Sep-12 $49.50
Bretonnian Lord with Lance 15-Sep-12 $26.75
Eldar Wraithguard 15-Sep-12 $59.00
Eldar Storm Guardians Upgrade Pack 15-Sep-12 $18.00
Eldar Shining Spear Upgrade Pack 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Prince Yriel 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Eldar Farseer with Singing Spear 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Phoenix Lord Maugan Ra 15-Sep-12 $22.25
Phoenix Lord Karandras 15-Sep-12 $22.25
Eldar Shrieker Jetbike Upgrade Pack 15-Sep-12 $8.25
Eldar Autarch with Fusion Gun 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Phoenix Lord Asurmen 15-Sep-12 $22.25
The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host 15-Sep-12 $22.25
Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Mephiston, Lord of Death 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Chapter Master Gabriel Seth 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Brother Corbulo 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Blood Angels Shoulder Pads 15-Sep-12 $10.00
Flesh Tearers Shoulder Pads 15-Sep-12 $10.00
Captain Tycho 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Blood Angels Vanguard Veteran 15-Sep-12 $19.25
Meltaguns 15-Sep-12 $10.00
Chaplain Grimaldus & Retinue 15-Sep-12 $45.00
Plasma Guns 15-Sep-12 $10.00
Lightning Claws 15-Sep-12 $19.75
Armour Through the Ages 15-Sep-12 $33.00
Ragnar Blackmane's Shoulder Pads 15-Sep-12 $10.00
Thunder Hammers 15-Sep-12 $19.75
Haldir with Bow 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Hobbits of the Shire 15-Sep-12 $19.75
Saruman the White 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Galadriel Protectress of Lothlorien 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Kings of Men 15-Sep-12 $29.75
Mauhur 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Sharky and Worm 15-Sep-12 $29.75
Corsair Bo'Sun and Captain 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 1 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 2 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 3 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Haradrim Hasharin 15-Sep-12 $16.50
The Three Hunters 15-Sep-12 $36.25
Shagrat 15-Sep-12 $16.50


----------



## nevynxxx

Ah! Missed that. I like the idea.


----------



## Vhalyar

It seems like we're looking at previews of Chaos in late September and the actual models hitting stores early October.

Compiled by Faeit 212.
Hastings:



> Tau are the first 40k release of next year (after the Deamons which release for both at the same time) and before Eldar.
> 
> Dark Angels are, after CSM and before Chaos Daemons (Last codex of 2012)
> 
> Should look something like... Sep CSM, Oct WoC, Nov DA, beginning Dec Hobbit, busy few months eh and next year looks likely to continue the pace.
> 
> 
> I believe CSM will be in the WD after the starter box issue and release end sep/begin oct. then same pattern for WoC, DA & Hobbit. Does seem a lot to cram in before the end of the year but I'm reliably informed this is what's happening........of course I could be wrong.
> 
> White Dwarf
> 
> 393 starter
> 394 CSM
> 395 WoC
> 396 Hobbit
> 
> No SoB for a long time yet
> 
> 
> For clarity running order for 40k & wfb =
> 40k starter
> Chaos Space Marines
> Warriors of Chaos
> Dark Angels
> Chaos Daemons/Daemons of Chaos
> Tau
> High Elves
> Eldar
> Lizard Men
> 
> That little lot should take us to around this time next year or a couple of months after (plus waves of models in between the codex/army book releases.... oh and the hobbit stuff).


Faeit:



> So this is What 2012 should look like.........
> Chaos Space Marines: End of September
> Warriors of Chaos: End of October
> Dark Angels: End of November
> Hobbit: Beginning of December
> Chaos Daemons: last codex of the year? End of December?
> Tau: First Codex of 2013
> 
> The first part of this looks similar to what I have heard for White Dwarf. White Dwarf for October is full of Chaos Marines. So with my sources and Hastings (which is very reliable, I have to go with this set. In essence everything seems to line up)
> 
> via Faeit 212( A Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> October white dwarf articles are all about chaos
> Chaos Marines and Dark Angels before years end.


I've highlighted the part that will make you sad, MadCowCrazy!


----------



## Adramalech

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think it's too much for a Starter Set. The SS is something that should really pull people into the hobby, it should be a great deal for miniatures etc etc etc.
> $99 is not a great deal, it's not even a good deal. It is however what we have come to expect from GW, if GW went back to the £45 SS I would buy 4 starters instead of the 1-2 I'm thinking about. GW would make a bit more money and I would get more models. Then again the market for SM would drop like it has always done for the minis in the starter.
> 
> Now that I think about it the price is kinda hard to determine, too low and you over saturate the market, too high and you dont sell enough boxes.
> I guess GW puts the price as high as they think they can get away with, they must take discount sellers into consideration as well.
> I think GW prices are too high but when you look at a discount sellers prices at 15-25% off it's actually not that bad. Heck look at deals on ebay for 50% off and it's not bad at all...
> 
> /rant over


45 GBP is about 90 USD, actually. 10% savings on a $100 product really isn't a whole lot...


----------



## SilverTabby

Why would Tau, High Elves, Eldar and Lizardmen take us from January to September next year, when GW have said they are planning some kind of book release every month? 

To go from OMG ALL THE RELEASES to one every other month, even with the Hobbit too, seems unlikely...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> I've highlighted the part that will make you sad, MadCowCrazy!















SilverTabby said:


> Why would Tau, High Elves, Eldar and Lizardmen take us from January to September next year, when GW have said they are planning some kind of book release every month?
> 
> To go from OMG ALL THE RELEASES to one every other month, even with the Hobbit too, seems unlikely...


If I remember correctly one of the codex/army book writers stated at the US games day that such a schedule would mean every dex would be updated for 6E in around 2 years leaving 2-3 years with no updates before 7E. So such a release schedule would be a real nightmare for GW which is why they want to mix in addons like Planetstrike, Missions book etc (that no one plays...) to spread out the release schedule.

I dont remember exactly where I read this but I'm 100% sure I have. Personally I think it'd be great if all books were updated to 6E within 2 years, that would leave 2-3 years of addon models etc they could introduce through WD etc. They should start doing what PP does and have unit cards in every box or a yearly updated dex with new points costs and rules updates. It would make them money and would mean updated rules. Sure they've started with the iPad dexes but that's such a small market and free updates dont make them any money.

Bah, if only GW would listen to the community... the hobby would be so much more enjoyable... (excluding all those "THIS CODEX IS OP! NERF IT! BUFF MINE!!" type of ppl).


----------



## Vhalyar

SilverTabby said:


> Why would Tau, High Elves, Eldar and Lizardmen take us from January to September next year, when GW have said they are planning some kind of book release every month?
> 
> To go from OMG ALL THE RELEASES to one every other month, even with the Hobbit too, seems unlikely...


iBooks, supplements, Hobbit, and so on perhaps? I don't think GW ever said they would release a Codex every month, or even that 'book' is physical, so it's still up in the air.



MadCowCrazy said:


>


D:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> I don't think GW ever said they would release a Codex every month, or even that 'book' is physical, so it's still up in the air.


There was a rumour earlier this year that this would be GW new release schedule, so one of the devs at the US Games Day was asked the question and his comment was what I posted above.

I do recall there being an increased update schedule though, just not quite as fast as 1 dex every other month. 3-4 per year at max, similar to what we have seen before but with the odd release thrown in between with WD rules or codex updates similar to the Daemons one we saw this month.

Source


> Lastly I spoke to Robin Cruddace. I asked him about GW’s release schedule and to my utter amazement, he said that they were aiming for some sort of release each month. Be it a codex or some sort of expansion. I would be surprised if this were true!
> 
> He said that there would most likely need to be a larger number of expansions between now and 4 years time so that you don’t reach a point where all codex’s for 6th are released with 2 years still to go before the next cycle. Take that how you will!
> 
> So there we have it folks. A very enjoyable day indeed – and most insightful!


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> There was a rumour earlier this year that this would be GW new release schedule, so one of the devs at the US Games Day was asked the question and his comment was what I posted above.
> 
> I do recall there being an increased update schedule though, just not quite as fast as 1 dex every other month. 3-4 per year at max, similar to what we have seen before but with the odd release thrown in between with WD rules or codex updates similar to the Daemons one we saw this month.


Pretty much fits with what Hastings is saying. Color me impressed if we get a double-whammy of Daemons before the end of the year though, considering the snail's pace of army releases.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

take the 'discussion' of bad codecies to another thread.

but for the record, DE dont suck, just if you try to play them with 5th ed army lists in 6th your gunna get yur ass kicked.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Stickmonkey has some release dates for us
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> It's hitting pretty hard that CSM are actually October, the confusion amongst the rumor mongers is that word is WD will hit the 22nd, in time for GD UK the 23rd. With pre-orders for CSM within. And on sale date of Sept. 29th. with a later in the month of Oct 2nd wave.
> 
> So the CSM out Sept is technically correct, but the reality is its the Oct release.


----------



## Vhalyar

edit: Badly trounced by MCC :laugh:

The Saga of "When The Fuck Is It Actually Coming Out" continues with Stickmonkey's comment:



Stickmonkey said:


> It's hitting pretty hard that CSM are actually October, the confusion amongst the rumor mongers is that word is WD will hit the 22nd, in time for GD UK the 23rd. With pre-orders for CSM within. And on sale date of Sept. 29th. with a later in the month of Oct 2nd wave.
> 
> So the CSM out Sept is technically correct, but the reality is its the Oct release.


----------



## SilverTabby

Well, when my WD gets here tonight I'll let you know.


----------



## SilverTabby

Soooo... On a skim-read:

Dark Vengeance, out Sept 1st, cost £65
Custom cut case, out Sept 1st, cost £40
Lots of Finecast.

The entire WD is full of Dark Vengeance missions, colour varients and other related stuff. A rather nice Alpha Legion varient set.

Inside back cover is a Dark Angel, with the tagline "The Battle Rages On". Absolutely no hints of more Chaos, no slipped in pics, nothing. Sorry. 

I'd've expected to see more pushing of Games Day, maybe Golden Daemon forms for those of us without printers. Instead, a 2page spread at the back and a 1page advert. 

Content, even for 40k players, is a little shallow, as it has been for months now. Here's hoping the next one with a codex release has some more stuff in it...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I guess there's some truth to Stickmonkeys claim then, if the next WD is Sep 22th or 29th, with Games Day 23rd they could be showcasing the new CSM stuff at GD like they did with Dark Eldar all those years ago.
I remember reading something about a CSM Terminator painting class around Sep-Oct.

Maybe the last page pic is wrong similar to how the pic in this months WD had the wrong issue number?


----------



## bitsandkits

SilverTabby said:


> Soooo... On a skim-read:
> 
> Dark Vengeance, out Sept 1st, cost £65
> Custom cut case, out Sept 1st, cost £40
> Lots of Finecast.
> 
> The entire WD is full of Dark Vengeance missions, colour varients and other related stuff. A rather nice Alpha Legion varient set.
> 
> Inside back cover is a Dark Angel, with the tagline "The Battle Rages On". Absolutely no hints of more Chaos, no slipped in pics, nothing. Sorry.
> 
> I'd've expected to see more pushing of Games Day, maybe Golden Daemon forms for those of us without printers. Instead, a 2page spread at the back and a 1page advert.
> 
> Content, even for 40k players, is a little shallow, as it has been for months now. Here's hoping the next one with a codex release has some more stuff in it...


is £65 for the limited edition set or the standard set?


----------



## SilverTabby

It says that the interrogator chaplain is limited edition, only in this box and only while stocks last. No seperate price for it, so I'm guessing first-come, first-served. 

And White Dwarf tends to be on sale at GDUK, so having all the Chaos there makes sense. It'd be nice that 'Eavy Metal has some unspoiled figures to show off for once. It was always nice to be able to surprise people with things that hadn't been wrecked by shoddy photography beforehand...


----------



## SilverTabby

What do you mean "the last page pic is wrong"? I'm looking at it, it's a dark angel. Admittedly his tabard is a little odd, but it's a close-up rather than full on picture, so I might be missing context on that one. 

And the mini-rulebook is 168pages long, how does that compare to the last one?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> What do you mean "the last page pic is wrong"?


August WD was issue number 391, on the last page it lists the next WD as issue number 393.
I dont have the WD here right now so can't check to be sure but I'm quite sure of this.

Basically the August WD was supposed to be released later, perhaps it was meant to be the September issue with the starter set released this months with Daemons next month to tie in with the CSM codex release at the end of the month.

There were rumours about a change in the WD and release schedule, basically they didn't have time or didn't notice the error on the last page as it wasn't an error until the change to the schedule was changed.

Meh, knowing the "accuracy" of WD it could just as well be nothing more than a typo, though some rumours point to a change in release schedule.


----------



## Judas Masias

The new Dark Vengeance White Dwarf is issue 392. I think the pic on the last page of issue 391 was for Dark Vengeance sense it's Chaos VS Dark Angels and not about Codex Chaos Space Marines


----------



## Dazz

Thinking about it, i think we will be seeing a refresh in models in the way of Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Obliterators, Havocs and a number of HQ's since these are metal models yet have not been made as finecaste. They have decided not to make them finecaste since the moulds are going to be out of production.

The same could be said about Ezekiel, Deathwing and Azrael for the Dark Angles


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

we will be seeing alot of new chaos models in the coming months, outside of just the awsomeness in the dark vengence box.

I really wish those damn DA had robes, would have suited my army so well. now I need to figure out if I want the DV box for my army or not > <


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Small tidbit about Angron
Source


> Here's the bit on Angron: (via the ever dependable Harry)
> 
> He's advancing, from left to right. Two chainaxes, one in each hand. Right hand going for an overhead chop, the other drawn back against his torso for a sideswipe (because it's Angron, he can't possibly be blocking!). High collar. White shoulder plates. Dreadlock-like neural-implants. Very angry. Link-chain cloak with a few skulls attached...
> 
> He is a good bit bigger than a 'normal' marine.


----------



## your master

MadCowCrazy said:


> Small tidbit about Angron
> Source


Wait a primarch in the codex? Does he mean kharn? Don't get me wrong that would be freaking awesome if true though


----------



## The Black Legionnaire

your master said:


> Wait a primarch in the codex? Does he mean kharn? Don't get me wrong that would be freaking awesome if true though


I think this is referring to the Angron model from the Horus Heresy project being done by Forge World. If so, it sounds amazing.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh? Lol, I thought it was for Kharn. Doh, well it's chaos stuff so I'll let it be in.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

if they made a night haunter Id buy it in a heart beat > <


----------



## Vhalyar

The_Werewolf_Arngeirr said:


> if they made a night haunter Id buy it in a heart beat > <


They will. All the primarchs will get a model along with some named characters.


----------



## The Black Legionnaire

Vhalyar said:


> They will. All the primarchs will get a model along with some named characters.


So then, If what you say is true, I can get Angron AND a Heresy-era Kharn? I can't wait! :biggrin:


----------



## bobahoff

So are we talking named characters from the books like Loken and the like or just kharn and abbaddon who were at the battle of terra


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## Vhalyar

Excellent news for Chosen! Pictures of the unit rules from Dark Vengeance have been posted at Faeit and, unlike the same Chinese document, they are base 2 attacks!


----------



## your master

They look alright still don't understand why krannon is just as good as Balthasar. Krannon is supposed to come with thousands of extra years experience I hope that's not an indication of the codex.


----------



## clever handle

base chaos lord probably will have the same stats as he does now. Pretty sure the stats stats in the current book are the same if not better than they were in the previous edition already. Unfortunately that means he's got the exact same profile as a chaptermaster but lacks the 4++

Rumours mention having greater access to wargear & buffs through marks to improve your warlord and army in the upcoming dex - Including org chart swaps.

The rules from the box set don't list point values or any USR's for any of their units. This is because in the missions provided you are told how the guys behave & what your forces are - GW has already "balanced" the missions for you...

If you want to use the models, Kranon is a Lord or Sorceror with a demon weapon or force sword respectively; the chosen are chosen / champions using the profile in the current rulebook; the hellbrute is a dreadnought (oh hey look... same profile & weapon options less a heavy flamer or tl bolter; the cultists I guess are allied guardsmen?


----------



## whiplash308

I just really hope that the method of unlocking, say, Berzerkers, as troops is only Kharn or the supposed Doombreed. If it's just a basic Khorne lord, then that wouldn't be a problem at all. We shall see.


----------



## Vhalyar

clever handle said:


> the chosen are chosen / champions using the profile in the current rulebook;


They've dropped one point in Ld to 9 actually.


----------



## clever handle

Vhalyar said:


> They've dropped one point in Ld to 9 actually.


missed the point. How to use in the interim as there is no "new book." Hopefully when the "new book" comes we'll have elite chaos space marines with two attacks base, currently we do not.


----------



## Eleven

My head would spin if even half the stuff in the op is real. The csm book would be Heavier than the rule book.


----------



## Vhalyar

clever handle said:


> missed the point. How to use in the interim as there is no "new book." Hopefully when the "new book" comes we'll have elite chaos space marines with two attacks base, currently we do not.


You're right, I misread. I was going to say that anyone wanting to use the Dark Vengeance stuff in their armies should be using the updated stats, but then again there's no point costs, so you can't actually integrate any Chaos stuff into the codex.



Eleven said:


> My head would spin if even half the stuff in the op is real. The csm book would be Heavier than the rule book.


It's not. At this point it's become fairly obvious that theDarkGeneral (the guy who rumored the outlandish stuff like brazen knights, legion mounts, renegade/legion split into two books, and the list goes way long) is full of shit. But a rumor is a rumor until we've actually got the book in our hands.


----------



## Horacus

if all this is true...I'll cry tears of joy T.T


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I haven't updated the first post in a very long time, I need to completely redo it since allot of it isn't true. Is there a point though? The codex is like 30 days away and I'm a lazy bastard :crazy:


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> I haven't updated the first post in a very long time, I need to completely redo it since allot of it isn't true. Is there a point though? The codex is like 30 days away and I'm a lazy bastard :crazy:


You went around searching for rumors, compiled them and put them all in the first post. If you call that lazy, then I don't know what you would call the rest of us.


----------



## your master

MadCowCrazy said:


> I haven't updated the first post in a very long time, I need to completely redo it since allot of it isn't true. Is there a point though? The codex is like 30 days away and I'm a lazy bastard :crazy:


Would be good to have a final summary


----------



## space cowboy

Leaving the historical info is good to reference in the future to get a consistent idea as to who has the most accurate rumors.


----------



## your master

Jut realised there is a hellbrute on the back of the brb I wonder what else from the artwork is real would love new sculpts of the marines to look like the artwork


----------



## SilverTabby

Well, if you're updating the first page you can scrub the second name off the 'author' section.


----------



## Vhalyar

Possible Cultist stats, from Faeit?

MadCowCrazy: Removed picture, you aren't allowed to post pics here. Links to a site that posts them is ok but no direct links or pictures



> We have a last minute set of rules for the Cultists before I head out the door. This is from a playtest set, and I can tell you that there are a couple of changes from this to the final copy. Have fun.......
> Please remember that these are rumors.
> 
> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> There are two changes between this version and the print copy, but they're not that big.
> 
> Oh, and cultists are getting a plastic box of 10 that comes with 10 sets of auto pistol / ccw arms, 10 autoguns, 2 shotguns, 1 heavy stubber, 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 icon (with several top options), 1 power axe, 1 power maul and a bunch of bits to put here and there (such as frag grenades and trophies). Only thing I didn't see was a power sword.


----------



## Chaosftw

Well if those are the rules thats crap... If I want to play Guard, ill play guard. nothing about that set of rules (if they are in fact true) scream Chaos.. Not impressed.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

well, you can have 180 troops for 540pts if my math is correct 
Throw in 1 ATSKNF or Fearless dude and you are good to go... or the lord that is rumoured to have fearless bubble


----------



## SilverTabby

Chaosftw said:


> Well if those are the rules thats crap... If I want to play Guard, ill play guard. nothing about that set of rules (if they are in fact true) scream Chaos.. Not impressed.


If you want cultists, they are guard with chaos weapons. Cultists = humans who follow chaos. You make them scream "chaos" by putting them in a chaos army, giving them mutations and painting them to match your army. But in the end, they are still just humans who follow a different god...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Lets do a comparison:

Frateris Militia (2E Sisters of Battle Codex) 4pt each
2/2/3/3/1/3/1/6/5+

Imperial Guard Conscripts 4pt each
2/2/3/3/1/3/1/5/5+

Rumoured Chaos Cultists 3pt each
3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7/6+


Seems too good to be true imo, at least with that statline.


----------



## Dave T Hobbit

While I am doubtful of all "copy of a play-test that I got from a person who does not want to be named" documents, the points for a unit are (theoretically) balanced based on the rest of the Codex so it is not impossible they would have better stats than a point equivalent unit form another Codex.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lets do a comparison:
> 
> Frateris Militia (2E Sisters of Battle Codex) 4pt each
> 2/2/3/3/1/3/1/6/5+
> 
> Imperial Guard Conscripts 4pt each
> 2/2/3/3/1/3/1/5/5+
> 
> Rumoured Chaos Cultists 3pt each
> 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7/6+
> 
> 
> Seems too good to be true imo, at least with that statline.


Eh, those other two units are horrible and unusable (at least in today's game, I can't speak for 2nd edition). I'm just hoping that GWS realized that a unit with no real options and really weak stats just plain isn't worth more than 3 points. And that 2 BS is just...heh...


----------



## seermaster

but orks only have bs 2 and there not heh


----------



## Eleven

seermaster said:


> but orks only have bs 2 and there not heh


Yeah but orkz have (essentially) storm bolters. And they have t 4. And 2 attacks base. And fearless.

Not to mention nobs with power klaw.


----------



## seermaster

Oh so true. 
Cultists could be very good considering 180 is only 600 points thats alot of shots plus guard allies and alord and your looking at maybe 300 models in 1500.Most of witch are scoring plus a couple vendetas and heavy weapons and its all good.


----------



## ravager37

Sounds ok but cultists for me are going to be fed into the meat grinder do what they can in terms of shooting or tarpitting while my Iron Warriors bat cleanup...300 models with heavy weapons ok good gimmick but they'll die in droves..cool theme if you wanna play traitor guard maybe with some demon allies for the whole cultists performing summoning rituals theme along with their heavy weapons for a cool mixture of units..all these things are cool no lie, but as a chaos army should be, cultists should be meat shields and fed into the grinder as they are expendable bodies for chaos marines


----------



## Eleven

seermaster said:


> Oh so true.
> Cultists could be very good considering 180 is only 600 points thats alot of shots plus guard allies and alord and your looking at maybe 300 models in 1500.Most of witch are scoring plus a couple vendetas and heavy weapons and its all good.


Eh, a unit of 30 dudes will still run easily. Not that the army you are describing wouldn't be hilarious.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wasn't there a rumour about the Chaos Lord having a fearless bubble?

60 cultists vs 30 Ork boys? Who would win? No one gets the charge, they just end up in combat. If you wanna get technical then the Cultists charge and the orks have defensive grenades and dont do overwatch.


----------



## Vaz

According to the 6e tiein novel, the hellbrutenisnthe CSM equivalent of the dreadnought, correlating rumour. Obviously access to MM available. 

Fluff states that CSM actually volunteer to become Helbrutes while alive but become deranged because of the agony. What happens to Dreadnoughts (contemptor et al) fluffwise and ruleswise I dont know. Or whether it is entirely seperate entity to represent CSM and traitor legionnaire units.


----------



## Vaz

Also Imperial Armour Aeronautica intimates that Iron Warriors alongside Dark Angels fielded Mortis Contemptor Dreads - might result in Mortis Hellbrutes/Dreads


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vaz said:


> According to the 6e tiein novel, the hellbrutenisnthe CSM equivalent of the dreadnought, correlating rumour. Obviously access to MM available.
> 
> Fluff states that CSM actually volunteer to become Helbrutes while alive but become deranged because of the agony. What happens to Dreadnoughts (contemptor et al) fluffwise and ruleswise I dont know. Or whether it is entirely seperate entity to represent CSM and traitor legionnaire units.


From what I know of the fluff the Imperium keeps their dreadnoughts asleep until they are needed for battle. Thus imperial dreadnoughts basically live a life of none stop fighting. The hellbrute on the other hand never gets to sleep, they are kept awake in their metal cages which after a few thousand years might drive you a bit insane :crazy:


----------



## Vhalyar

*Release date rumors from Natfka for C: CSM and the first HH book:*



> This is from a trusted source. So this the most current information I can get, and what I can release.
> 
> _via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> There's been a big white dwarf overhaul for October but it's now finished and finalized.
> 
> Chaos Space Marines are available for pre-order on the 29th of September and for sale retail on the 6th of October.
> 
> They will be present at Games Day UK however, for anyone who wants to see / read but will not be for sale or pre-order even for people who are there in person.
> 
> The Horus Heresy Book 1 - Betrayal will share the same release dates, except that there will be a limited number for sale at Games Day.
> 
> The entire range of new models will be released on the 6th and 20th (Meaning that every unit entry in the book will have an available box set by the 20th. Some kits that are being redone in a year or more time are not included in what I mean when I say "entire range.")
> 
> This has been crunched to make room for another BIG 40k release in November._


Sep. 29 for pre-orders, first wave on sale Oct. 6th, second wave on Oct. 20th. HH: Betrayal on the same schedule. Both will be previewed at Gamesday UK. Additionally Natfka is putting his cred on this rumor. Whee!


----------



## whiplash308

October 6th then huh. Well, looks like I'm going back to painting some Chaos boys after this Carnifail on my desk gets finished. The excitement rises every day. 

This may be the only time ever where I'll be willing to have my wallet completely.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Short update, I've come down with a MAN COLD!!! Women talk about giving birth but when a guy gets a MAN COLD!! it's no laughing matter. Not sure how much I will be on the computer this week, every inch of my body hurts.

I wont be going to games day uk this year, it's a horrible horrible event, sure it only costs €200 to go but I'd rather pay a japanese girl to shit on me than spend that kind of money on going to games day. If someone else wants to pay for the trip then perhaps I'd go but it's just such a shitty event.

Now I need to crawl under by bed and sweat like a sweaty bastard. I'm literally drenched, see you guys when/if I get healthy again.


----------



## SilverTabby

I'm going to GDUK. Most of my day will be spent getting to look at the Golden Demon entries, rather than the 15minutes I've been used to, but I'll see what else is there. I'm sure the guys will have the entire army there...


----------



## clever handle

pretty sure that if hellbrutes don't completely replace dreadnoughts (so far they're the same thing....) they will be an upgrade such as "venerable" for the loyalists.

My assumption is that the upgrade will give the daemonic special rule or something like that - maybe modify the likelihood / results of a fire frenzy...


----------



## The Black Legionnaire

I'll be going to Games Day, only this'll be my first, so I'm not sure what to expect other than what I've been told of already (Golden Demon, Scrap Demon, displays, etc.)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Black Legionnaire said:


> I'll be going to Games Day, only this'll be my first, so I'm not sure what to expect other than what I've been told of already (Golden Demon, Scrap Demon, displays, etc.)


DO NOT do any shopping there, unless you are first in line all the exclusive stuff (Black Library and perhaps some Fantasy Flight) will be sold out in the first 10min. Buying regular GW stuff is a waste of time, there is no discount or anything like that. FW might be ok as you save on shipping and if they are out of stock you get free shipping.

If you dont partake in any of the events there and just walk around looking at stuff I guess it's ok. If you want to talk to anyone, partake in any event or similar expect to stand in line ALLOT.

There is NOT enough time to partake in everything that games day because the queues are too long. Expect between 10-30min queues for everything, might be shorter for unpopular events like talking to Matt Ward.

If you want to do the terrain build thing go there the first thing you do, it's very popular and during the 2 times I've been there I've never managed to get it mainly because the queues are too long and because they dont do it that many times. People only do it for free bits anyway.

The only viable things to do is get a book signed by the author, talk to artists and games designers.
Talking to artists and games designers is completely pointless, you dont learn anything because explaining what they do would take hours. They are not allowed to do interviews nor will they tell you anything about future releases.

Authors on the other hand will gladly tell you about future releases and ideas that are going around in their heads.

To put it simply...

DO NOT WASTE TIME ON:
Talking to Game and Codex designers
Buying normal GW product
Actually playing a game of 40k/Fantasy
Buying food there, expensive as hell and tastes like snottling diarrhoea 

DO THE FOLLOWING:
Talk to Authors and get books signed
Look at the big display boards
Look at Golden Daemon
Look at battle dioramas
If you see one of those "entertainers" that walk around doing shitty party tricks or juggling tell em to fuck off. It's really sad to see a 70 year old dude trying to juggle messing it up completely trying to get pity laughs from people who are pissed off for standing in line for 2 hours.

If you have followed the above guide and still have time left...
If they have something unreleased on show stand in queue for 30min to take a peek. This year there might be the new CSM stuff on display, last year there was nothing and the year before we had Dark Eldar.
Queues to the sales area should be a bit smaller now, so go buy a book or some FW if you want that.
Fantasy Flight have always had their own sales area so you can go take a look at their stuff at any time during the day.


Don't expect to be able to buy a new book and get it signed, you might get lucky but dont count on it. It's better to bring your books with you and have them signed. Author signings are only open at certain times and only for about 1 hour at a time.

There will be people going around handing out free water, grab a few bottles as it gets really hot.

If there is still time left after you've done all of the above you can do the DO NOT DO stuff. I doubt you will have any energy left though, you will be hot, sweaty and tired but most of all pissed off at what a shitty event it is and why you had to pay money to get in at all.

Hope this helps, tell us about your experience once you get back from it.
If you manage to get some pics of new CSM stuff feel free to post.


----------



## bitsandkits

you missed take a camera and take photos of anything that might be new stuff


----------



## The Black Legionnaire

Thanks for the advice MadCowCrazy.


----------



## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

yeah, what MCC said is why I generally leave the GD to others and just read up on it after XD


----------



## SilverTabby

I can also recommend going to look at the 'eavy metal cabinets if you have the time. Even if they've only got the recent releases (which I doubt - I'm fairly sure all the chaos stuff will be out) it's always worth it because photography makes their work look like crap. In person you can see just how much work goes into each figure.

Also, everyone and their dog goes to try and pry new stuff out of games dev. If instead you pick the designer who wrote your army list and engage them in conversation about tactics and their thoughts you get a much better reception. Same goes with the painters - find out who painted your favourite stuff and engage them about it, rather than just going "how do you paint red?"

Seriously, don't go and ask how to paint red. You'll get ignored.

I'm going pretty much to enter GD, everything else is a bonus.


----------



## Chaosftw

You forgot to mention Take a shower before going. Just because other nerds smell bad does not mean you have to as well.

This goes hand in hand with "Tends to get hot". Bad Odours + Hot Convention = DEATH on a large scale.

Cheers,
Chaosftw


----------



## normtheunsavoury

MadCowCrazy said:


> There is NOT enough time to partake in everything that games day because the queues are too long. Expect between 10-30min queues for everything, might be shorter for unpopular events like talking to Matt Ward.


There could be a considerable queue for him too if GW have taken my suggestion for a new event: Slap Ward! You queue up and when its your turn you have to name a single fluff rape committed by Mr. Ward. If you can name one you get to slap him, name two and you can kick him in the nuts.:taunt:


----------



## Horacus

Chaosftw said:


> This goes hand in hand with "Tends to get hot". Bad Odours + Hot Convention = DEATH on a large scale.


Now everything is clear. After a deadly convention Nurgle was given birth.


----------



## SilverTabby

It seems to be the same in *any* gaming store I go in. For some reason, people think being a gamer gives them some right to ignore social niceties. Or maybe they just spend all their personal hygiene money on toys. 

Being a gamer doesn't make it alright to stink B(


----------



## jondoe297

hmmmm think of the possibilities of a toiletry line
eau de gamer??? 
The TV advert is already forming in my mind . . . . . room full of beautiful ladies . . . . one squirt and they all peg it leaving you to peace with your fellow gamers. Kind of antithesis of lynx! 
Full proof plan!


----------



## Vhalyar

Today's dose of rumors courtesy of Naftka's magic unending sources:




> via Faeit 212 (Anonymous)
> the chaos space marine daemon prince being increased by 40pts! & having the lash ability taken away for good (apparently to cheesy)
> the daemon prince will have to pay the same points for wings as a daemons prince from the chaos daemons codex so it is is more balanced.
> 
> dark Apostles will be the same as the blood angels sangunary priest (can have up to 3 & they count as 1 elite)
> the apostle will only give you abilities depending on the mark it has taken.
> 
> the list is as follows :
> Undivided : unit becomes fearless & relentless and gain feel no pain
> khorne : unit gains rage , furious charge & rampage
> nurgle: unit gains feel no pain , it will not die and slow and purposeful (if it joins a unit with feel no pain already then the feel no pain roll is one lower than normal)
> tzeench: units gains a 5+ invulnerable save that can be re rolled if failed (unit and apostle can re roll once per game)
> slannesh: unit gains fleet , + 1 initiative and rending


----------



## Chaosftw

Sounds quite nice.... Still need to see the official codex to believe any of this. But still a good find none the less.


----------



## LukeValantine

Hope they do something to off set the unjustified price hick (FWI CD DP's are expensive because they are a Heavy not HQ, and can be run as cheap MC in lower points game when naked). If they are 150Pts flat with no added goodness then I would be surprised. Only way I can see this price hike is if they came with wings base as I imagine the wings upgrade will also be increased in price, and I don't know about you but paying 150pts for a stock DP seems a bit dumb for T5 and 4 wounds. Hell the only thing that was broken about DP's was lash and I can't see them taking it away and still hiking price. Now I can see them making wings a 40-60pt upgrade considering it gives it flying monstrous creature status, but if it is 150pts base for something that can't stand against a avatar or swarm lord then I would be very disappointed.

Also keep in mind DP are also generally weaker this edition as they need to smash just to hurt land raiders and many necron vehicles something they could do with ease last edition, and with only 2 attacks when smashing you often accomplish nothing but standing still for a fetal volley, however I really doubt they are going to nerf the DP so its not like any of this matters. Now I can see them making it a over priced death machine with 6 attacks and st?T6 base for 160pts, which will still make many gamers just drop DP's all toghter for lords as they will still go down super easy to even moderate concentrated fire.


----------



## LukeValantine

Vhalyar said:


> Today's dose of rumors courtesy of Naftka's magic unending sources:


Also a bit funny how anyone could think paying 210pts for a T5 flying monstrous creature is balanced. Its like trying to emulate the nids when they do it cheaper and better (Nids! you know the army everyone says are under powered!). If this really is the case I expect the DP to fall completely out of tournament play as anyone with a brain in their head will just take the flying dragon thing everyone has been talking about...especially because unlike the prince it apparently has impressive shooting. Hell the DP at those prices would look like a shit option considering that if rumor are true it doesn't even unlock anything or provide any USR's for the army.

Like I said though a lot of shit has been shoveled about the CSM book and the roundabout nature of most of these romours makes everything either look over powered or just crippled, but like the necron books romours when it was coming out we are probably only seeing a small piece of the picture making it hard to see if anything really has been broken in the new book.

Still if the supreme achievement of millennium of devotion to chaos is a 150-200pt nid flyrant wannabee then I imagine a lot of people are going to be pissed. All though it does make sense according to various statements about taking the focus of the DP for the HQ slot. Still we will see soon enough in about 30 or so days. Still any change is better then stagnation and I imagine their will be plenty of horrific combos in the new book to off set any units that become the new possessed of the CSM army....I just hope its not the DP (I LOVE MY DP!)


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Vhalyar said:


> Today's dose of rumors courtesy of Naftka's magic unending sources:


While I would love the Apostles to work in such manner and that they may very well do, I do not believe for a second that the boons listed will come true. Mostly because very few of them makes any sense. 

Undivided: Why the hell would it provide FNP? Isn't that Nurgles area of expertise?

Khorne: Believable, although I have no idea what rampage does. Is there actually a rule called that which I have missed?

Nurgle: It Will Not Die? Really? How many multi-wound units characters can join do we expect there to be in this dex? More than one? Seems very unlikely. Just one? That just seems odd to provide a buff only one unit can use. But then again, the Necrons Phaeron upgrade is also practically useless so it's not too far-fetched. Although SnP does seem weird too considering that would be the only drawback amongst all the marks.

Tzeentch: Only provides 1 bonus and it's clearly worse than all the others (seeing as FNP would be better 80% of the time).

Slaanesh: Seems reasonable although a little too copy-paste for my liking. If it really Kelly who's in charge of this dex I would expect something a little more creative (and if it's Ward, something considerably more loony as that seems to be his style).

But what do I know? I'm just being annoyed by conflicting and ridiculous rumours.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> having the lash ability taken away for good (apparently to cheesy)


What's wrong with Lash? Maybe they just get Pavane instead?
Portal of exile could work too I guess, picture as reference to what that might look like...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

And yet again, Faeit has some rumours


Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source) said:


> Dark Apostles
> It's correct in how they are purchased and that they confer abilities to the unit they're in.
> 
> They universally confer fearless(because they are fearless) and furious charge. Beyond those two, the abilities that they add to the unit are not as good as the ones you have posted, and in some cases not even remotely similar.
> 
> Dark Apostles's are more along the lines of watered down cult troops, but if added to a cult unit they still "bolster" the cult units effects.
> 
> i.e. Dark Apostle in a Plague Marine unit get FnP 4+ instead of 5+, or confers a 5+ to a unit of marines or cultists.
> 
> Let me be frank though and clarify that there is no unit that gets rampage that is not limited to 3 models. It's reserved for independent characters, walkers, monstrous creatures and some multi-wound, small number units.
> 
> Your unit of 8 khorne berserkers doesn't potentially double in effectiveness by taking less of them.
> 
> Daemon Princes
> The daemon prince stuff is accurate
> 
> 
> Daemon Princes are exalted CSM's, not Daemon's (though they have the Daemon rules), so they are not the same as from the Daemon codex. They have clear heritage as space marines.


----------



## Sethis

As comparison, the Avatar is 155pts, is S6, T6, has 4 wounds, WS10 and I6 along with a 3+/4++, inbuilt Meltagun at BS5 and 12" Fearless bubble and is immune to meltaguns.

And is considered bad by many Eldar players.

Daemon Princes really need to get their shit together if they're costing 150pts base...


----------



## Chaosftw

MadCowCrazy said:


> And yet again, Faeit has some rumours


I really like these ones. This means that the CSM codex is going to be more complex and there will be less Cookie Cutter lists. Also it removes the 'Plug and Chug'/ Point and Click style that the CSM is currently experiencing to be competitive.


----------



## Vhalyar

New rumors at Faeit about Abaddon being Tzeentch's little pet.

It's so stupid and idiotic that I'm not going to quote it here. I'm surprised Natfka even bothered posting something so retarded. Go on, read and laugh at something so dumb even Ward would cringe.


----------



## Sethis

Well that made me giggle. Talk about being Tzeentch's bitch...


----------



## The Black Legionnaire

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Seriously, I have little doubt this is untrue.


----------



## Chaosftw

Im sorry but what is listed there makes him worse then before.... IF this rumour is true I will try and model Abaddon being bent over by a Tzeench Sorc.


----------



## seermaster

the rumors are true my freinds aunts mums sons son who has a freind who knows a reliable source said so


----------



## slaaneshy

This better be shit, but remember, if I had said a year or so ago "Blood Angels had a fight with some nids and their Necron best pals turned up and gave them a spanking together and then made daisy chains to put around each others necks"....there would be plenty of Victor Meldrew ("I dont believe it" - for those non 'one fooot in the grave' peeps).

Also, look at the allies table in the current edition - plenty of 'WTF' moments there!

In short, GW are re-writing the fluff to suit....so who knows...expect to see in a Horus Heresy novel near you "Tzeentch appears before Horus, bakes him a cake...they fall in love and he swears to do his bidding in exchange for a re-roll"

I've not yet invested in this edition of 40k....if this codex disappoints...then it is all on ebay and i'm Mantic, Spartan, Priviteer Press and Battlefront all the way and Jez loses a subscriber!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Big rumours dump from Faeit yet again
Source


> via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)
> 
> Dragon Flyer - 12/12/10
> 
> 2 butcher cannons, bs3, immune to shaken/stunned, can be locked velocity as normal. Flyer only, no hover/skimmer mode. Can vector strike at strength 10. Strafing run.
> Because this might be misinterpreted I'm going to be really clear: It does not have "two firing profiles." It has 2 butcher cannons, and that's it. It does not have blasts of any kind. It is "BS4" against ground targets because of strafing run (go read it, it's a USR for details).
> 
> Terminators can be upgraded to chosen, getting +1 WS (5) and +1 wound (2), and fearless. They can take marks on top of that. It gets expensive.
> - Interestingly enough, when upgraded they are troops if you take Abbadon, yet normal Terminators are Elites.
> There are no "chaos storm shields,"
> The best you can get is Mark of Tzeench to upgrade your 5+ invulnerable from Terminator armour to a 4+.
> 
> There is a piece of chaos wargear that gives a 4+ invulnerable, but it is not a storm shield it can just be added for characters. Yes it upgrades via mark of tzeench to 3+. No it's not available for sorcerers.
> 
> 
> Vindicator is unchanged, but can take daemonic possession (as all chaos vehicles can). No melta of any kind on it except the potential to buy a pintle-mounted combi-melta as an upgrade.
> 
> As for the essentially indirect fire mechanism? That's made up. As for the daemonic possession changing the weapon profile for 1 shot that then expends the daemonic possession? That's made up.
> 
> The new book has a lot to explore, and lots of fiddly options here and there. The post about Abbadon and the previous one have no basis on the actual print what so ever.


Source


> via Faeit 212 (anonymous source)
> the chaos dragon will have two shooting profiles:
> 
> when shooting at flyers : 36'' range , strength 9 AP 4 heavy 3
> when shooting at the ground: 36'' range , strength 8 AP 3 heavy 3 blast (can be upgraded to large blast but then becomes heavy 2) and costs + 30 pts
> 
> also terminators will be given a chaos version of a space marine storm shield. And if you now take chosen terminators they will have 2 wounds each.
> also the melta vindicator rumour is very much real - but with the two profiles as well.
> 
> special rule: enraged daemon: (this rule only applies if you give your melta vindicator daemonic possession) : once per game you can exchange your normal melta shot for a daemonic melta shot.
> you may not move in the previous turn to do this ! you shoot ( large blast strength 10 AP 1 shot ) but cannot use your ballistic skill and always scatters 2d6 inches. after doing this then the rules for daemonic possession on the tank is lost for the rest of the game and you must only fire the normal melta shot.
> 
> normal melta shot is : strength 8 AP 1 large blast.
> this tank cost 150pts to start and an extra 20pts for daemonic possession - NOTE: this tank may NEVER EVER fire at flyers or at a enemy when a member of your army is within 3 inches of the target.


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## Chaosftw

I really hope this dragon model is a nice kit.

Thanks for the post MCC!

Love the update


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## SilverTabby

You do know the first rumour post rubbishes everything in the second rumour post, from the same person, right?


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## SilverTabby

@slaaneshy: that description of Horus' fall is about as plausible as the one in the books, to be fair. 



In the books, he gets visited by chaos, shown a vision of the future where there are no statues of him. He throws a toddler tantrum and turns to Chaos. I'm sure it was meant to come across as more of a deep and meaningful temptation whilst vulnerable, but that's what stuck. Stroppy teenager Horus...


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## Sethis

So it's a vehicle flyer that can vector strike? That's either interesting or bullshit...

Regardless, if it has 8 S8 shots then pending a points cost it shits all over the Vendetta.


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## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> You do know the first rumour post rubbishes everything in the second rumour post, from the same person, right?


Basically he was given the second rumour first, there were some bitching so another source gave him the top rumour. Which one you believe is up to you :crazy:


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## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Basically he was given the second rumour first, there were some bitching so another source gave him the top rumour. Which one you believe is up to you :crazy:


Err no, he specifically pointed out that the other rumors were BS. The only one worth mentioning is the top (latest) one.



Sethis said:


> So it's a vehicle flyer that can vector strike? That's either interesting or bullshit...
> 
> Regardless, if it has 8 S8 shots then pending a points cost it shits all over the Vendetta.


170 or 175 points.


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## Adramalech

Tzeentch is a manipulative cunt. Horus is an easily manipulated teenager-at-heart.

It works.


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## Sethis

Well you could do worse than include a pair of them as your anti-flyer flyers I guess. Of course it depends what else is in the codex.


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## TyphoidLmJ

SilverTabby said:


> but that's what stuck.


Amen. That was real disapointing. 

"God... Its so unfair Ereebus. Daddy wont let me borrow the Battle Barge.."


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## Tensiu

You know, fellows, what'd be cool? Dividing Chosen like Wolf Guard. It would be awesome, in my opinion, to let them lead small groups of cultists.


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## Mossy Toes

Well, all the Primarchs are essentially adolescents with daddy issues, so...

Though I'll agree that Horus's fall in_ False Gods _was pretty weak, all things considered.

I'm so sick of waiting for this codex. I know it's juuust about ready to drop but I just want it to arrive already.


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## Supersonic Banana

in the reference section of the brb p.139 there is a profile for a weapon called a melta cannon : 24" str8 AP1 heavy 1, blast, melta

i don't recognize this but i may just be being stupid


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## SilverTabby

I don't have my rulebook to hand, but there was also a "Shellstorm Cannon" under the salvo rules. I like to think it'll be a new Holy Trinity weapon, but the Chaos Codex is closer and more likely to get it...


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## MadCowCrazy

Supersonic Banana said:


> in the reference section of the brb p.139 there is a profile for a weapon called a melta cannon : 24" str8 AP1 heavy 1, blast, melta
> 
> i don't recognize this but i may just be being stupid


That's an IG weapon, the Devil Dog has it (Hellhound variant).


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## MadCowCrazy

Some more rumours from Faeit 212
Source


> via the Faeit 212 inbox
> Thousand Sounds full squad is 20 Marines or 10 for half. 150 points gets you 4 sons and a Sorcerer. add more sons for 23 each. Sorcerer can take the boon of mutation ability (the one that gives him an extra roll on the chart at the beginning) for 10 points. he can also have meltabombs for 5 points, and you can buy an icon of flame for 15
> 
> 230 Arhiman
> 240 for squad
> although a level 3 sorcer is only 140, with mark of tzeentch he is 155
> 
> Raptors are 95 for 5, and 17 points for up to 10 more
> same upgrades as before
> 
> WARP TALONS, are the new raptor. They are 160 for 5 and 30 each for up to 5 more. They all have twin lightning claws. and they have an attack on the turn they deep strike.
> its not an assault on arrival. its an attack that makes everyone within 6" of the unit blinded. so if you thread the needle, they won't be shot up
> 
> Defiler is 195 now, with all the normal options.
> demonforge, the ability you're thinking of, is a once per game re-roll to damage
> 
> Forgefiends are 175, they have TWO Hades Autocannons. A Hades Autocannon is 48", Heavy 4, Str 8 AP 4... pinning they are only bs 3, so it's about the same. and once per game it can reroll to-wound and to-pen you can, however, swap those weapons out for Ectoplasm cannons. which are str 8 plasma cannons. and for 200 you get THREE of them. so that's some ap 2 love
> 3 HP, 12/12/10 armor
> 
> Dragon 170, they have 1 hades auto cannon
> 3 HP, 12/12/10
> they can make a melee attack against other fliers


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## Iron_Freak220

This point raising thing for a minimal increase in ability is really going to screw with my army lists. Unless I radically change my list, according to these rumors, I'm going to have even less models on the board than normal without a proportional increase in damage output.

That being said, I guess I'd still rather have that than the current codex.


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## LukeValantine

good to know that thousand sons are looking to be as insanely expensive as always.


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## slaaneshy

Iron_Freak220 said:


> This point raising thing for a minimal increase in ability is really going to screw with my army lists. Unless I radically change my list, according to these rumors, I'm going to have even less models on the board than normal without a proportional increase in damage output.
> 
> That being said, I guess I'd still rather have that than the current codex.


That is what allies are for....chuck in some cheap ork fodder!


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## whiplash308

So there will be Raptors, and Warp Talons being some super Raptor shenanigans? Interesting. I don't like how it's being quoted though.."90 points for five, and 17 points for ten more". So max squad size of 15? Another thing is I don't like the way the loyalist codex way of putting in point costs. Pay this for these guys, and then this for X amount more.


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## Khargoth

SilverTabby said:


> I don't have my rulebook to hand, but there was also a "Shellstorm Cannon" under the salvo rules. I like to think it'll be a new Holy Trinity weapon, but the Chaos Codex is closer and more likely to get it...


Could be the rumoured Iron Warriors siege weapon?



MadCowCrazy said:


> Dragon 170, they have 1 hades auto cannon
> 3 HP, 12/12/10
> they can make a melee attack against other fliers


This could be where the 'two shooting profiles' came from. Starts with a Hades autocannon but can be upgraded to a Butcher Cannon perhaps.



whiplash308 said:


> So there will be Raptors, and Warp Talons being some super Raptor shenanigans?


Yup. That's GW's new policy it seems. "Oh you like X unit? We nerfed the fuck outta them, but look at this new unit with _new models_ that does that job so much better!" The part they leave out is the 'new' unit is pretty much exactly the fucking same as how unit X used to be. The Necron codex was rife with it. Destroyers vs Tomb Blades, Warriors vs Immortals, hell Gauss Immortals vs Tesla Immortals!


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## Coyote77

A forty five point increase on a model that does the same thing ? Yeah, glad I got my Defilers cheap.


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## Mossy Toes

Coyote77 said:


> A forty five point increase on a model that does the same thing ? Yeah, glad I got my Defilers cheap.


Well, some earlier rumors were saying it would have better armor. If that's the case, then it might (MIGHT) be worth it. As it sounds now? Nope.


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## darknightdrako

Mossy Toes said:


> Well, some earlier rumors were saying it would have better armor. If that's the case, then it might (MIGHT) be worth it. As it sounds now? Nope.


Yeah better be 14/13/11 with that point increase... oh well I will just have to wait to either whine/praise the dex when it comes out.


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## Eleven

darknightdrako said:


> Yeah better be 14/13/11 with that point increase... oh well I will just have to wait to either whine/praise the dex when it comes out.


Well it couldn't get any worse.


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## menzer1013

I have heard rumors of an invulnerable save, which MIGHT make it worth the 45 pts.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

menzer1013 said:


> I have heard rumors of an invulnerable save, which MIGHT make it worth the 45 pts.


Well, if it's a 3++ then it might. In fact it better be because I love my defilers but they are already bad enough as it is. I'm gonna be pissed if they increase their cost by 33% and NOT make it worth the expense of acquiring them.


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## LukeValantine

Mind you these romours are still all over the place (Which is confusing considering the codex is a month or less off). However current rumors make the CSM book sound like the GK book, hyper expensive with only about 35% of the units being worth their actually pts cost, in on the table effectiveness. Yet this would be better then the codex being SM light with cheaper yet less effective stuff then loyaists. However such a change has to walk a careful line as 1-2 pts over on a already expensive model can make including them in your army a none-sequitor. Still I guess unlike GK we can spam shitty cultists for camping objectives while dedicated and apprently overpriced units go forward to actually fight things. 

Keep in mind you none of us really know anything about the new book outside of the hellbrute and cultists will be included and some tid bits about what chosen will be like.


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## whiplash308

Agreed with you Luke, but still. I really don't want to play this out like GK. I want my marines with my badass dedicated marines helping out and in large quantities killing everything. I don't want to play a game with only 25 chaos marines on the table and 60 cultists. This is Codex: Chaos Space Marines we're talking here, not Codex: Renegades of Chaos. I'm sure cultists won't even be used very often unless it's for a fun game, or a full cultist army. I highly doubt seeing them in a competitive game, but who knows. 

On another note, I agree again. We're honestly all over the damn place with these rumors. Tons of shit, not knowing what exactly is legit or not. Closest we have now is the double wave, mid October release date I think. :/


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

100% agree and it's also my main beef. At this point in time we pretty much all knew what 6th edition would be like (We knew shooting would be more in favour than CC, we knew PW would have AP, we knew how and why transports would be less dominant etc.) but we know absolutely squat about this dex.
It's half a month away and even the model we heard the most about (The Dragon Flyer), well we don't even have any really consistent info on it other than it's supposed to cost around 170 points. Sure, every rumour has said that it would be 12/12/10 and possessed but come on! Everybody was already counting on this being the case. The more I thought about it the more I came to realize that even before I was told anything other than it's concept I expected it to have this statline. So what that really tells me is that we probably know (for certain that is. Educated guesses isn't knowledge, remember?) even less than we think.

And that really bugs me. Because I so want this codex to be good and to arrive RIGHT NOW. But I also don't want it to be too good. If it's a braindead steamroller like the C: GK I probably wouldn't find it satisfying either. So my problem is, since am an eternal pessimist, I always expect things to take a turn for the worse. So when I can't seem to glean any real information about C: CSM from all these rumours I start to become worried how it will turn out.


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## clever handle

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> 100% agree and it's also my main beef. At this point in time we pretty much all knew what 6th edition would be like (We knew shooting would be more in favour than CC, we knew PW would have AP, we knew how and why transports would be less dominant etc.) but we know absolutely squat about this dex.


we didn't *know* anything a month prior to the release of the new edition. It was only once the edition came out that we were 100% certain of anything. The chaos dex will be the same when it comes out in January 2012..... er.... April, no..... August? Shit. Surely October 2012....?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Naturally we didn't *know* anything for sure. But the consistency of the rumours were much, much better than with this release. Like you mentioned, even the fucking release date have been bouncing all over the place. And info on 6th were pretty limited compared to a lot of previous releases.


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