# GW Exhaustion: A 6th Ed Rant



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

So, trying to keep the drama to a minimum. Anyone with any time in the hobby has had the rules go south on him, seen his favorite army/build/unit turned to to crap. I wasn't the first, won't be the last. 

But...

And this is an important 'but' here. Sometimes you have to pause for a bit and wonder if the hobby is treating you properly. 

Rewind a year and change. I had finished purchasing my CSM army (hadn't played a game yet) and had just ordered my first batch of Dark eldar from Maelstrom. My local meta was a SM-fest and I wanted a seocnf force to keep me from getting bored with my own MeQs, and the De models were sleek, gorgeous, the army fast and deadly in a way my traitors...weren't.

*Hit me until I love it*

Then the embargo hit. Games Worshop apparently got fed up with losing sales to stores with actual good shipping policies and insane practices like buyback or (gasp!) the occasional sale. So we on the southern hemisphere got shafted. Bear in mind that one of the main reasons wargaming even achieved any presence here in Brazil was due to the appearance of good online stores with free shipping. 

Still, I was invested. I started playing my CSM, having great fun along the way, and slowly ordering my DE forces when I had some cash left. The price increases along the way didn't help.

Then, Finecast. When it was time to buy my Incubi and HQs, metal was no longer an option. I ordered the models. The Incubi came withweird little resin feelers on their legs instead os spikes, and the haemonculi misisng the backpack/spine piece. Being a naice kind, I only took a pic of the haemi defect and mailed it to them, thinking I could fix the incubi myself and not trouble them. They mailed me another hameonculi. Or they say thay did. Two months later, it hasn't arrived. 

*It could have been worse. You could have picked nids...*

In a way, it was a good thing that I 'downsized' my DE army with the embargo and the price increase. The countdown to 6th Edition began, and I was optimistic. GW is a big studio. They have top talent and the feedback of hundreds of thousands. They've had years to work on this. 

Except...not. Love or hate the allies system, it basically is a game development shrig. "We can't balance the armies with out codex release schedule. So have this chart and fix it up yourselves while buying more of our stuff. Except you, bugs". That's the message I got. That they didn't even bother to give armies that choose to stay 'pure' a reward for doing so clinches it.

The implementation of overwatch, assault for non-TeQ and MeQ, acces to skyfire weaponry and even the Warlord trait table makes me wonder if they even understand the dynamic of their own games. Some of the FAQ's show less effort than I put into my Street Fighter IV game when I'm letting my GF beat me (yeah, I'm a chauvinist pig.).

*How to turn RNG into bad design*

Let's take the Warlord table as a minor example. It's not the core issue but it is revealing.

You have offensive, defensive and terrain abilities sharing the same table. Your charge-forward assault HQ can end up with a defensive power that only applies if he camps back in his home turf. Your base-sitting sniper HQ can get furious charge if he ever strolls to the enmy deploy zone, which he won't. You may gain a bonus in ruins playing a forest or desert table with nary a ruin in sight. You can gain Acute senses when not having a single outflanker on the table.

In -good- games, the tables would have been better, or allow some player input. In the RPG Deathwatch, for instance, you roll your power armor's special abilities on a similar table. Except they actually know a bit about game design and let you always pick the options above or below the one you rolled if you wan, because they know it's dumb to expect a Devastator to get an armor that gives CC bonuses and say it's fine.

"Bah, you should just adapt!". That lazy excuse making. you can toss a swimming person a cinderblock; no amount of improvisation or tactics will turn it into a flotation device. And it's especially harmful when the other guy just might roll well and get a jet ski. "You got a spork, you got a chainsaw...balance checks out. Now fight, you two!" 

*Now what?*

So now I'm sitting here pondering what to do. I could just shelve my incubi, Archon, Wyches and all and get more venoms and blastern, maybe a plane or two. Put night shields on everything since flickerfields are almost pointless now and play shooty keep away game after game while praying for a night fighting turn. 

But it's not the kind of game I wanted to play with my DE, not by a long shot. I've seen pure Venomspam in action at a tournament and it seemed utterly boring (the fact that it was being fielded by TFG didn't help).

Do I eBay it and channel the funds to my Infinity army and an IG addition to my CSM? Do I just play it for fun since it's nearly done, knowing full well how sub-optimal it is now and hoping the dice gods will reward me for my principles?

I've gone from anger to bargaining to acceptance to cynicism, and now I just feel disappointed. It may be a bit silly to go on so much about a game, but we all know this is an investement of time and money. There is such a thing as 'psychic capital'; when your favorite team loses an important game, it doesn't pick your pocket or break your leg, but you still -have- been affected, and not lightly. When it wins, it also puts no money in your pocket, health in your body or anything of the kind, but you have gained something real. 

I can't think of a good way to finish this little rant, so I'll just stop it here. Please feel free to share your opinions, good and bad.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, I spent the day being down and out, feeling like GW let me down and ruined the game. I still feel like that a bit but meh... there wasn't a damn bit of love given to my army, so in response, GW has lost my support. I'm not buying any books from them anymore and when I can will only buy discounted models from 3rd party companies.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

I'll never give up on 40K, but I have stopped buying the models, I mean.. $29.00 for 10 guys with Flashlights and T-Shirts... I'd rather get 20 guys for $35.00


I now buy my models from other companies until GW completely outdoes their rulebooks/codices in price, at that point, I'll completely stop buying ALL thigns from Games Workshop.


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

I was holding off on ordering 6th ed until I heard how it turned out. I know the opinion on WD is pretty bad here but I was reading the 6th ed White Dwarf and cheese and crackers, I had to stop half a page into the "Inaugural Warhammer 40,000 Battle Report." The amount of crap they've added made my shake my head in disappointment. I've loved 40k since I was a kid but from what I've seen so far, this edition is a giant cockslap to everyone who isn't Little Timmy with his mum's wallet. They may as well have just printed that huge book and repeatedly said, "Buy shit that's not from your army so you can use it with your army and buy terrain that you don't need so you can use it with the stuff not from your army that we want you to buy for your army so you can be roflstomped by Little Timmy and his shiny new BA/GK allies army while trying to understand the amount of bollocks new rules we've added."

tl;dnr I think 6th ed is going to be even worse than 5th (which wasn't horrible, but I was looking for 6th to improve) and I'm pretty sure my friends and I will be playing 5th until 7th edition decides to make an appearance. /rant


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Personally I'm not a heavy gamer but I still enjoy them as a bit of fun now and then. 4e was great, 5e was not so great but good for quicker games, 6e I have yet to play and as such I have yet to judge. Sure I can speculate based on what I've read, but ultimately I'll know nothing for sure until I've seen it in practice.

But if I was to be a whiny little bitch, I might as well do it right and just go back to 4e right? 

Not speaking to anybody in particular, just thinking as I type.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, DE got hit hard... but if you think you've got it bad then spare a thought for daemons. We were having a hard time against mech and teminators in the old rules, but now we're really screwed.
- Khornate units used to be able to oblitorate almost everything in combat... but now we find that TEQ could basically walk through them without caring.
- we have zero psychic defence or psychers of our own.

... and leaving the best for last: we have almost no way to destroy fliers.
Nurgle- S2 shooting that can't really get in range doesn't help
Slaanesh- um, no shooting doesn't help
Khorne- plasma pistol equivalents that hits on a 6+.... oh wow
Tzeentch- ah the anti-tank, shooting section... oh wait. Flamers auto-glance of a 4+ which sounds awesome, except they'll need to be insanely close to hit a flier with a template, screamers are immense but despite flying about themselves can't touch a flier and so that leaves bolt of Tzeentch hitting on a 6. Bolt is barely able to handle normal mech armies... but bring in fliers instead and its 1/3 as many hits. 

Talk about screwed.

I basically can't see daemons being taken as a non-allied army now, they just don't have enough units that actually work to be able to string together a workable army (and there is always GK hanging around with their numerous anti-daemon powers and widespread 2+ saves).


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

There's still a lot of things to sift through. Bare minimum - if you haven't read the rulebook, you don't know how things will be. Even if you have, you aren't much better off because you haven't played a game yet. It takes time to wrap your mind around new strategies and playstyles - this holds doubly true for anything dealing with new flyers. 

As far as money goes, GW is a business. Their objective is to get people to spend money. Not only that, they are a niche business which means they have to be very careful about profit growth. If they get too big, their production costs shoot up and they lose profit. Why do you think they keep jacking prices? They're very likely at the edge of the bracket where they either need to keep production where it is or increase it by a large percentage - a small increase in production would mean a disproportionate, significant increase in cost. Allies and fortifications are no more mandatory than the new flyers they released last month. 

Read the rules and let them marinate for a while. Reserve judgment on the rules until you've played some games. Raising hell at this point about them serves no purpose but to put you into a negative attitude the first time you try them. Bitching about cost will never change, so knock yourself out, but don't imply anyone is holding a gun to your head making you buy new stuff.



Tim/Steve said:


> we have almost no way to destroy fliers.


Are there no flying monstrous creatures in a demon-only army? I'm still working through the rules but I was under the impression that swooping MCs can fire at zooming flyers at normal BS. I'm not familiar enough with demons though.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Kelann08 said:


> Are there no flying monstrous creatures in a demon-only army? I'm still working through the rules but I was under the impression that swooping MCs can fire at zooming flyers at normal BS. I'm not familiar enough with demons though.


No effective/cheap builds for FMCs with good anti-tank options. I'm guessing winged tzeentch DPs will be widely taken... but they will be 200pts basic for a T5 4++ model with 4 wounds who will be stuck to the ground the turn they DS. Could try a flying circus with fateweaver, lord of change and 3 tzeentch DPs flying as a unit, but that's massively expensive and would be quite dangerous on DS (though not as bad as it used to be).

As options go taking an allied force would seem far better... but if doing that its probably better to take the other army and ally in some daemons (which is why I said I think they would basically be downgraded to allies).


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> Yeah, DE got hit hard... but if you think you've got it bad then spare a thought for daemons.


I know DE were not the only ones who got punched. They are not even the ones who got the worst deal. I only used them becuase it's my personal case and thus the one I can explain better.

My point is that the cycle of "Now A sucks, B is average and C rocks" beinf switched around and repeated every few years is bad design. If it's imcompetence, it doesn't belong in a company the size of GW. If it's greed, it's just despicable.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I wonder how many people got sick and tired of reading about how shit 8th edition fantasy was at release. And how shit the first book, Orcz was, and how badly broken the previous edition books were compared in the new edition.

Roll on 5 books later and a year of playing and the system I find is possibly one of the best. The same will happen here. When reading the post, sephyr, a lot of your anger comes across as simply a difficulty in obtaining the products, and that some units are rendered 'useless' in the new edition. The same happens across the board.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> No effective/cheap builds for FMCs with good anti-tank options.


Fateweaver lost his lustre? Anyways, you can just Vector Strike to get auto-hits on side armour with Str 6-8.

I think that 6th looks great. Vehicle damage got a lot better, loss of No Retreat! helps out Orks, Nids and Daemons (honestly, Snap Fire does jack crap to chargers. Precision Strikes means that all the Nobz will be dead by turn three, but you get what you're given). Every model in the army makes me take Leadership tests from Fear. True, I'm LD9 minimum. Equally true, you'll make me take five or six tests per turn across the board.

FMCs are a massive boon to Daemons - so you think you have it hard shooting down Flyers? Those things you need to hit *once* to bring down, if not disable for at least a turn? I have to take on your 4-wound Monstrous Creatures that can do combat attacks that I _cannot strike back against_ while running 24" around, occasionally touching the floor to do a Smash on a vehicle that you're practically auto-hitting, and if I smack them 3 times with lascannons, they don't lose weapons. They don't get Speed Locked. They just keep on smacking until you get rid of every wound.

Daemons don't have it _that_ bad. Allies are not the end of the world, people, srsly.

Midnight


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

and this is why i'm glad I invested in multiple armies. sure 3 of the 4 armies I play are not terrible, but at least 1 of them is still great!

Not to mention in a few months chaos update will drop and I'll have 2 good armies. By the time that codex creep is making necron suck, then tau will drop and I'll still have 2 good armies.

I think rather than having one army with 10,000 points, you should always aim for having five 2,000 point armies. It will protect you from feeling like OP. Then you can work on whichever armies you have that are strong and up to date at any give time and shelve the rest.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Anyways, you can just Vector Strike to get auto-hits on side armour with Str 6-8.


For the 8 str models this is pretty good. For the 6 strength ones...well...

You can take your shots that will glance on either 5 or 6 depending on the flier, but I doubt it's gonna help much.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here is one people may have missed. you can't assault out of most vehicles...regardless if it moved or not. That means if you move up in a rhino. Then you get out the next turn you still can't assault even though you can move and shoot normally. So their is officially no point putting any type of CC unit in a rhino or an number of transport as it will take 1-2 turns to get into CC regardless of the fact the enemy is 1" away. This means their is no tactical way to minimize damage to to assault troops as they will have to be exposed to at least one turn of the enemies overwatch and regular shooting. (Note I have no personal stake in this matter as my army was comprised of plague marines/chosen/DP's but I feel sorry for my red brothers).

Looks like World eater armies are a thing of the past. Well this is the shooting/every unit that sucked before edition.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Awww, that's so annoying for assault mech players like me......oh wait, I never did or want to doany kind of mech HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you wasted all that money on transports, idiots


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Fateweaver lost his lustre? Anyways, you can just Vector Strike to get auto-hits on side armour with Str 6-8.
> 
> I think that 6th looks great. Vehicle damage got a lot better, loss of No Retreat! helps out Orks, Nids and Daemons (honestly, Snap Fire does jack crap to chargers. Precision Strikes means that all the Nobz will be dead by turn three, but you get what you're given). Every model in the army makes me take Leadership tests from Fear. True, I'm LD9 minimum. Equally true, you'll make me take five or six tests per turn across the board.
> 
> ...


Throwing Fateweaver to the front is asking him to eat a missile or Skyfiring turret and fail morale and run straight off the board. Also, remember that Flying MCs can be brought down to the ground. And there's still the issue of if you'll even get to deply Fateweaver, given CD's wonky system. He just might drop via DS, sit there for a turn being shot, and flee. 

And yup, allies are not the end of the world, if you have an extra $400 or so to invest in a side-force. Otherwise, enjoy Marines and their Valkyrie/Vendetta wings playing keep-away with your xenos.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually it only hurts assault mech units. Guard and dakka builds still don't give a damn. Note my 5 meltas say hi.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Actually it only hurts assault mech units. Guard and dakka builds still don't give a damn. Note my 5 meltas say hi.


Well Dakka mech is just as easy to beat as assault mech, then again beating assault mech was just toooo easy


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Here is one people may have missed. you can't assault out of most vehicles...regardless if it moved or not. That means if you move up in a rhino. Then you get out the next turn you still can't assault even though you can move and shoot normally. So their is officially no point putting any type of CC unit in a rhino or an number of transport as it will take 1-2 turns to get into CC regardless of the fact the enemy is 1" away. This means their is no tactical way to minimize damage to to assault troops as they will have to be exposed to at least one turn of the enemies overwatch and regular shooting. (Note I have no personal stake in this matter as my army was comprised of plague marines/chosen/DP's but I feel sorry for my red brothers).
> 
> Looks like World eater armies are a thing of the past. Well this is the shooting/every unit that sucked before edition.


Back in fourth edition a number of people came up with the idea of running the transport up fast, disembarking once you were fairly close to the enemy, and then using the vehicle as a mobile buffer to offer a measure of protection. It was neither fool-proof nor the worlds best tactic, but it worked for a lot of us and I'm sure that, like many tactics, it will see a resurgence by anyone who even bothers to think about ways around these disadvantages.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

(Sorry if this comes of negative, but really you are assuming I havn't already played 4-5 games of 6th and read the book 2-3 times)

Note: you also can't disembark if you moved more then 6" so if you want to use that tactic go ahead, but really I don't see the advantage of running up 6" jumping out and hiding behind a vehicle that moved as fast as you can walk. Still like I said doesn't effect me, but it seems they went out of there way to discourage assault troops going in basic transports. Also with my 6" then getting out and moving six inches and shooting I really would love to see someone try that tacitc against me. (You know as I jump out beside/behind the vehicle and commence murdering them all, note that same vehicle will also only grant you a 5+ save if I can see you)

Fact is this edition is a game changer a lot of units and tactics that even worked in 4th are now not valid. Fact is a lot of what we know is now invalid. I am just pointing out tactics and unit usages that are dead. If you can think of a way to try and jam 4-5th edd units and tactics into a 6th edd game please do so, but me and other are looking for the meat of this book not the left overs.

Also when I comment on something relating to 6ths its not bitching or me being negative its just flagging stuff that is important for those that play my armies. Personally I have already adapted my tactics and have already won 1-2 games of six edd.

On a related note plague marines and DP's are still just as good for the most part as last edition (Well maybe the whole grenade thing hurts dp's), but berzerkers aren't doing so well (Tripped over their own rhino then got murdered by 2 units of marines that moved up to fire bolters and plasma's at 24...lesson learned). Luckily CSM bikes and raptors are now...tolerable. Also loving the fact that thousand sons now have access to around 20 psychic powers if you have ahriman and all your troops are thousand sons. Also until its changed CSM terminators now for the low cost of 30pts have access to 3 different power weapons (So many various tactical options).


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> (Sorry if this comes of negative, but really you are assuming I havn't already played 4-5 games of 6th and read the book 2-3 times)


Well seeing as the new edition is all of a few days old, I make no guesses as to the number of games other people have played and the number of times they have read the rulebook Luke.

Start the game, move full speed in turn one, next turn run the transport six inches and then disembark and pop smoke to make it and your squad harder to knock out. If the transport is alive for the next turn, roadblock rush it into the face of your enemy and force them to deal with that hindrance while your squad(s) get in closer.

Its a far cry from fool proof or the best strategy in the world, but its more than nothing which is a start.


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Also until its changed CSM terminators now for the low cost of 30pts have access to 3 different power weapons (So many various tactical options).


Two of which suck so hard you shouldn't even bother to consider them viable at all.

Seriously, the only reason it would ever be acceptable to use a power axe is when you have an excuse like "I didn't have enough points left for a power fist", and that only works for Chaos. Loyalist chapters, Space Wolves in particular, have _no excuse_ and would be quite barmy indeed if they ever thought it was a good idea to go with a power axe instead of a power fist.

Seriously, the power axe and power maul are utter shit, only meant as last-minute cover for the quite blatant elephant in the living room that is "How do non-SPACE MARINES now deal with TeQs?".

And, like all solution GW pulls out of its ass for armies they don't give a damn about, it sucks and is obviously and objectively subpar to other choices that the armies they care about have.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

True and its does help those that have no choice in the matter. I myself will just phase out my 1 unit of berzerkers in favor of a more tactically sound units of chosen or plague marines (Over watch with 5 meltas or 5 plasma's typically kills at least 1-2 guys in the last few games I played).

I still kinda like the power axe on terminators as they will now get their save against the vast majority of units in CC, personally I will use my power axe terminators against GK's. Yah as for the maul it is kinda a list tailoring/ useless weapon with most armies being MeQ, but you know whats never a good idea? Putting a power axe on a IC... I miss kharn already. Still power fists on nurgle lords is now a sound tactic which actually works this edition...still a bad idea when compared to a DP that has access to the new psychic powers, but a hell lot better then it was before. Ahriman is also a insanely effective psyker now which is good for all those thousand sons players that had almost given up hope.

I do believe it is important to stay positive in this transition period and point out the new tactics that work this edition and the old ones that are dead (We don't want to lose peaple from the hobby just bacause their carfully thought out armies and strategies are now about as effective as a lead enemea.

Here is one for all my chaos friends.

Daemons and Chaos marines.

Tired of your daemons dying to deep strike and skatering to the seven winds? Fear not a simple 400 pts of marine allies will see your army making ground fall in a imperial city near you soon. Also nothing says friendship like inviting a friendly neighborhood great unclean one to a imperial city barbaque!. 

Tired of your chosen sitting at home while the cult marines get all the ladies? Well fear not with over watch you get a somewhat decent chance of 1 melta hit or 2-3 plasma hits, and 5 flamers will make your units all but immune to all but the largest mob of the green menace or the chittering horde. Lets also not forget that in a desperation move those cheap melta bombs, can give those unlucky enough to get one of your five special guns something to do in the assault phase against MC's. The imperials may have been made more deadly in this new age, but take heart my brothers and continue the good fight...er bad fight?

Lets also remember that the lowly Greater daemon is now a welcomed guest in most CSM armies with his new found immunity to force weapons stealing is souls. Also he is a very handy friend to have around when you want to take a old 3 shot swing at crushing most pesky imperial agents into some good old instant death soup. In fact why stop with the imperium when I am sure that your local necron overlord or warboss would love a nice pat on the shoulder with a a DP's loving str10 hand.

and yes you should read that like a old timy movie reel.

No but seriously 10 chosen all with melta bombs, and 5 flamers will make a unit almost immune to low save hordes, and MC's without good inv saves.


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

I felt betrayed enough when GW put down their embargo on bargain hunting. Since then, I got really angry and boxed up all my projects for a while, but since then decided that since I've gone and bought (like little timmy) all these toys, I am damn well going to enjoy them.

To that extent, I don't really care what sixth is like. I play relatively infrequently, and the imposition of a changed ruleset may make some differences, but the narrative of my armies remains relatively unchanged. It wasn't like I won very many games to begin with, either!


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Mokuren said:


> Two of which suck so hard you shouldn't even bother to consider them viable at all.
> 
> Seriously, the only reason it would ever be acceptable to use a power axe is when you have an excuse like "I didn't have enough points left for a power fist", and that only works for Chaos. Loyalist chapters, Space Wolves in particular, have _no excuse_ and would be quite barmy indeed if they ever thought it was a good idea to go with a power axe instead of a power fist.
> 
> ...


We get the point, you don't like SPACE MARINES, now lay off the caps lock!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Eleven said:


> For the 8 str models this is pretty good. For the 6 strength ones...well...
> 
> You can take your shots that will glance on either 5 or 6 depending on the flier, but I doubt it's gonna help much.


Well, what FMCs are there?

Bloodthirsters are Strength 7, or commonly 8. Lords of Change come with a pseudo-Multi-Melta standard. Daemon Princes of Chaos get an array of Skyfire weapons, not least of which is Bolt of Change if you're a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. Others get Daemonic Gaze (last resort), or Breath of Chaos (Skyfire Templates? More likely than you think). Tyranids get the Harpy, with a Skyfire Heavy Venom Cannon, and the Winged Hive Tyrant, that can use Blessings to help itself out, and also has the option for a Skyfire HVC.

Other MCs are on foot, but get other stuff in the army to help them out. Talos and Chronos get Razorwing Fighters and, in a pinch, Ravagers, Chaos Space Marines get a higher proportion of Autocannons and, more specifically, Twin Linked Autocannons to get through the '6s to hit' through weight of shots.

Vector Strikes certainly aren't as good as, for example, Psyfleman Dreadnoughts or Gods forbid the Hydra, but they're not a *bad* way of dealing with Flyers as far as I can tell.

Midnight


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

The cynic in me is betting that they are placing all these restrictions now so they can 'unveil' exceptions in the coming books. 

_Your Berserkers suck horribly now and get owned by tacticals? Why, buy the new Khorne Furious Guard from the codex with their special Khornate Chainaxe that has an -actual- good rule (-1 to enemy armor saves)! Available in finecast only. _


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I too hate the Warlord rules.

Did anyone ask for it? Did anyone want it? Were people crying out for a random chart of semi-useless abilities that they could assign to their HQ choice? Somehow I think not.

Ditto Fortifications.

Ditto Allies.

Ditto random terrain effects/objective effects/night fighting in every game.

It's not so much the randomness and unbalanced nature of them inasmuch as it's the fact that I have never seen anyone indicate that they wanted it. Yet that's what they devote significant resources to implementing, while ignoring other major issues that players have been crying out against for a very long time.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't _hate_ the Warlords rule. It's a free buff. Why is this bad? Sure it might not be useful, but if it isn't it's not like you could have bought something else.

Midnight


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I think what is really frustrating is when my friend says, "Hey at 2000 points you can take a second force org chart" I'm like umm... no? I have my own house and kid, how am I supposed to buy another $300-500 worth of models just so I can play in 2000 point games competently with the guys who will be running 6 heavy support or 6 fast attack etc. I have to agree with InquisitorTidusSolomon, that 6th seems to be about what guy can spam the most models for the cheesiest list. Who ever buys $300 worth of 9 Scythes or Valkyries will auto win tourniments from now on until they fix this stuff.



Sethis said:


> I too hate the Warlord rules.
> 
> Did anyone ask for it? Did anyone want it? Were people crying out for a random chart of semi-useless abilities that they could assign to their HQ choice? Somehow I think not.
> 
> ...


QFT and now so much more of winning a battle comes down to luck rather than being prepared and skill. It supports making a specialized list and just hoping you get the right scenario to help you win. Have a fast assaulting army? Get night fighting and hey look, the game is suddenly so much easier.



LukeValantine said:


> ...it seems they went out of there way to discourage assault troops going in basic transports.


Hmm could that have something to do with all Space Marine chapters having awesome assault vehicles? Just maybe... I know any assault units I had in my SoB army just got completely boned.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sakura_ninja said:


> 40k has been wallethammer for years, no change.


Actually it was just piggy-bank hammer when I started all those years ago. Its like everything else for me so far, I get older and the things I want get more expensive; but this hobby has held true through the years (in that I still partake in it.)

Pretty sure a battle-force was about half the price of what you pay now all those years ago.


That aside, I kind of like the idea of being able to add in allies from another codex and the inclusion of fortifications. The first expands on the idea brought forth by the daemon and witch hunter codecies (though it has its flaws) and the second is an addition that can allow some more enthusiastic players, who have purchased those particular sets and want to get more use out of them, a chance to alter the scheme of things in the game.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

allies + apocalypse = second mortgage?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I too hate the Warlord rules.
> 
> Did anyone ask for it? Did anyone want it? Were people crying out for a random chart of semi-useless abilities that they could assign to their HQ choice? Somehow I think not.
> 
> ...


Well daemon and CSM players where asking for the allies thing to be fair......everything else seems like a get rich quick scram by GW.



Arcane said:


> Hmm could that have something to do with all Space Marine chapters having awesome assault vehicles? Just maybe... I know any assault units I had in my SoB army just got completely boned.


Nay its probably the fact that contrary to popular belief land raider and terminator sales for everything but GK's tanked near the end of 5th (May have been the entire army of guys with power weapons perhaps?). While everyone and their space marine mother has at least 4-5 rhinos laying around somewhere.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Nay its probably the fact that contrary to popular belief land raider and terminator sales for everything but GK's tanked near the end of 5th (May have been the entire army of guys with power weapons perhaps?). While everyone and their space marine mother has at least 4-5 rhinos laying around somewhere.


Ahh of course the ol, what does every player have, nerf that, and buff whatever they don't have, tactic. Worked well for Necrons... rather than complaining about the nerfed Monolith, most seem happy to buy hoards of new models since they came out. I'm not going to fall for it though, in 2 years time, flyers are going to be completely useless and only Gretchen will be usefull.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I don't _hate_ the Warlords rule. It's a free buff. Why is this bad? Sure it might not be useful, but if it isn't it's not like you could have bought something else.
> 
> Midnight


No, but the time and effort the designers put into creating the list of tables could have been put into creating, oh, I don't know... better rules?

I'm not whaling on the rest of 6th yet because it's too early, but I can fairly safely say that any friendly games I have with my friends will be _sans_ Fortifications, Allies, Warlord Traits or stupid objectives/terrain. We might even choose psychic powers instead of rolling for them.

The rest of the core rules look fine at first glance, time will tell.


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> We get the point, you don't like SPACE MARINES, now lay off the caps lock!


For the sake of clarification, I don't really hate space marines (though I do find them quite uninspiring and liked them best in their 1987 version), I am simply frustrated at the amount and quality of support they receive compared to basically every other army.

I also don't hate 6e either, I just find flyer rules to be a blatant Timmy tactic, wound allocation to be aggravatingly stupid and the special power weapons really could have used some more work. And the warlord tables, too. Everything else I really like.

I have to apologize for my posts in the last few days, I've been a bit nervous and this affected my ablity to be sarcastic without turning into an asshole. If I have been exceedingly abrasive in my latest posts, for what it's worth I didn't mean to.


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> Tzeentch- ah the anti-tank, shooting section... oh wait. Flamers auto-glance of a 4+ which sounds awesome, except they'll need to be insanely close to hit a flier with a template, screamers are immense but despite flying about themselves can't touch a flier and so that leaves bolt of Tzeentch hitting on a 6.
> 
> ...
> 
> No effective/cheap builds for FMCs with good anti-tank options. I'm guessing winged tzeentch DPs will be widely taken... but they will be 200pts basic for a T5 4++ model with 4 wounds who will be stuck to the ground the turn they DS.


Zooming Flyers cannot be hit by Template Weapons. 

And Flying Monsterous Creatures can choose to be Gliding or Swooping the turn they arrive from Reserve.



MidnightSun said:


> Well, what FMCs are there?
> 
> Bloodthirsters are Strength 7, or commonly 8. Lords of Change come with a pseudo-Multi-Melta standard. Daemon Princes of Chaos get an array of Skyfire weapons, not least of which is Bolt of Change if you're a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. Others get Daemonic Gaze (last resort), or Breath of Chaos (Skyfire Templates? More likely than you think). Tyranids get the Harpy, with a Skyfire Heavy Venom Cannon, and the Winged Hive Tyrant, that can use Blessings to help itself out, and also has the option for a Skyfire HVC.
> 
> ...


Vector Strikes are at your unmodified Strength, so a Bloodthirsters would be Strength 7 and a Daemon Princes Strength 5.

And where did you read that Flying Daemon Princes get Skyfire weapons. I want this to be true but I can't find it anywhere.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Still going through the rules, so not everything gelled yet for me. But what I have read so far makes sense and I am enjoying the sound of. I like it that you can rally troops when they are above 25% and it doesnt matter if you are within 6" of enemy models. 

Some of the flyer rules dont make sense in my head yet, and think this will take a play thrugh or 3 before it does. I have not got as far a vehicle rules yet, but I am assuming my tactic of driving my redeemer 12" forward and dumping out my assault terminators and charging in one turn is out?

Also my understanding is that template weapons cannot snap fire, so I cannot use my flamestorm cannons when I move my redeemer?

My orks on the other hand are pretty much unaffected. Flyers? whoopy do. My tankbustas hitting on 6's instead of 5 and 6's makes very little difference to how poor they are  But my storm boys look like they will rock. A potential 30" move in one turn? OK so on avarage that is more likely to be 23-24", but that is still rather awesome. Plus they get to the super duper hammer charge thingy. I expect to loose a few to overwatch, but thats normal. Saying that they will be most peoples first target.

My cyber Megaorks? They defently get a good buff. Still not quite a match for standard Marine assault terminators, but against GK terminators? I reckon they will be on an even footing.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

humakt said:


> Also my understanding is that template weapons cannot snap fire, so I cannot use my flamestorm cannons when I move my redeemer?


Not sure on charging out of vehicles, but as I understand it so far you could move 6" and fire 1 weapon at full BS (ie normally) - so 1 Flamestorm. You could POTMS the other flamestorm, and snap fire the rest of your guns...


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Gret79 said:


> Not sure on charging out of vehicles, but as I understand it so far you could move 6" and fire 1 weapon at full BS (ie normally) - so 1 Flamestorm. You could POTMS the other flamestorm, and snap fire the rest of your guns...


Good answer, not thought of it that way.


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## tslyle (Mar 9, 2012)

Did assault vehicles get the boot? Still waiting for my copy to arrive.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

If 6th edition is as bad as some of you say it is, fuck it, I'm playing Warmachine.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It's not bad at all, it is different.

Edit: Assault vehicles are still there and you can still assault out of them.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It will settle down in a few books time. Once the kinks are ironed out.

8th edition was just same, with some armies taking astronomic leaps in power (like necrons have done), while others have dropped what they once were (Dark Eldar apparently, although I am not too sure why), while others have gained more balance and abilty after being tired and rehashed samish builds, (CSM) while the final lot made others crash in style competitively (unknown yet), their previous strengths being nerfed, while other armies strengths only rose.

For example Dark Angels only really gained from this edition change and that is without a new codex to play with. Once they get a new codex, and people have learned the rules and nuances, they will get an initial boost, but then level out against other upcoming books -CSM, Daemons and Tau rumoured I believe?


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> If 6th edition is as bad as some of you say it is, fuck it, I'm playing Warmachine.


It is not _too_ bad, it just has some meh rules, some stupid but easy to ignore or disregard rules and some real huge stinkers such as the Timmy tactic of wallet emptying by buffing flyers through the roof and wound allocation that makes you stop the game and start rolling all saves one by one if you meet someone that either tries to abuse such mechanic or inadvertently does by virtue of having a model with more wounds in the front or a different save or whatever.

Of course, as always, some armies got buffed and some got shafted. If you have any familiarity with GW, you can very easily guess which army belongs to which side of the buff/nerf camp.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Flyers will be annoying if you have someone with deep pockets. Wound Allocation will be annoying for a month or two then it will settle down and become a game of hide the shell (good stuff) in each unit.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think it's a great book. Lots of good pictures, slightly different rules (even though these slight differences will change the metagame), good heft (I could probably knock out a mugger or aggressive driver with this massive tomb), and a Space Marine on the cover, even though it's a filthy Dark Angel.


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