# Why did the Emperor wait so long to smack down Lorgar?



## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

I love The First Heretic to bits, but this one part really bugs me. Lorgar had been going around claiming the big E was a god for a very long time, and he wasn't exactly doing it in secret. So what changed? Even _Russ and Magnus_ agreed with each other that what the Emperor did was a bit too much, and as we can see in Know No Fear, Guilliman thought the same thing. Hell, if I wanted to come up with a plan to intentionally make the Word Bearers angry, resentful and likely to contemplate treason, I couldn't have done a better job than what actually happened.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd guess that it was because he couldn't see just how far they were taking it, he blinded himself to their excesses because he didn't want to face the reality of the situation, like ignoring the brutality of Angron.

Ultimately, it shows him to be human too, unable to see the situation truly objectively when it comes to his 'sons'. Even the Emperor was flawed.

...Better go, the proximity alarm just went off, the Inquisition have found me again...


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

The First Heretic is my favorite HH book but I REALLY had to suspend my belief to buy into that part of the book. There is no way in hell he didn't know about what they were doing. The Word Bearers had been at it for decades. The Emperor was still fighting in the Great Crusade at that time. Even if they were opposite ends of where the frontlines were... messages couldn't have been more than a few months away. If he had such a big problem with it, he could've settled it in years instead of waiting decades. There would've been far less bad blood... Lorgar himself wonders why the hell the Emperor waited so long.

And putting on a big show, having ALL the Word Bearers kneel right in front of their most hated rivals. Where's the omniscience of the Emperor in that? Was an audience even necessary? I think just the Emperor himself talking to the WB would've been enough... If not, then have another well-respected Legion stand there. Have the Blood Angels do it... Everyone loves angel boy. That entire part made no sense to me...especially as we're made to believe the Emperor is some supernatural genius.

But hey, it's a small part of the book ... and what an awesome book it is.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

My personal theory goes like this:
The Emperor send Lorgar messages before Monarchia. But they were more like: "hey Lorgar, still worshipping me? please stop and conquer more worlds. Thanks & bye, your Dad"
Since the Emperor at this point still had some time left before his precognition deserted him and he was busy doing other stuff, bringing Lorgar in line was not high priority.

when his foresight became less clear the Emperor worried that the Chaos Gods would move against him soon, so he made sure every son is in line. Lorgar especially because the Emperor knew the Gods used Religion to interfere with the material world.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I think it's important to bear in real world 'culty' things. That is: even normal people are immensely competent at deluding themselves into thinking they're right and other people are wrong. So much so that it comes _naturally_ to most people. We just tend not to do anything 'magnificently' wrong and are decent enough that even the small things tend not to be that bad.

So, like Apfeljunge says, it's surely the case that the Emperor's repeatedly told Lorgar to 'quit it'. Everyone probably does. Primarchs rolling their eyes at each other as Lorgar goes off on an Emperor worshipping rant. "Don't goad him, Rogal," jokes Horus, calming things and avoiding problems. Lorgar's views are never _that_ bad, unlike Night Haunter's or Magnus', which tend to cause 'real problem's. (Magnus' folly takes a similar time to Lorgar's to come to fruition: he's slowly irritated Russ and Mortarion enough that they only at the end get annoyed enough to bring about Nikaea.)

Lorgar, to that extent, is perhaps the person who might cause the odd argument at dinner or prompt a bit of sadness when the seating arrangement is view, but it's likely that folks _actively_ ask not/cause-trouble-if-made to to be seated with Magnus or Night Haunter.

So, to a large extent, I think Lorgar was also probably clever enough (or learned quickly) not to go 'really overboard' with ideas, he knew his limits and wasn't all-religion, all-the-time...at least not whilst in company. (Notice he's perfectly fine in _A Thousand Sons_. In _Horus Rising_ or _False Gods_, Horus really quite likes Lorgar on a seemingly personal level [even if they disagree on specific philosophical/religious outlooks].)

But, eventually, like when Lorgar's Compliant Worlds start contributing army regiments and fleets and things...they have to start interacting with other Crusade Fleets. It surely becomes ... painfully obvious how deep the problem goes. By the time it comes to a head at Monarchia, perhaps it's only obvious to the 'head honcho' (the Emperor) how much problem integrating Lorgar's worlds is being. 

That is: All the "Okay dad, I get it, don't do that" show how apparent it is that Lorgar hasn't stopped, he's just got cleverer/better at doing what he's been doing all along. So it needs a big thing, an reality-shattering thing to pull him out of it.

Hence Monarchia.

Could've done with that being threaded more prominently, I suppose, but I 'got' that impression from the book well enough - Lorgar's been up to stuff, serious & fundamental shiz.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I never got from the books that the Emperor is supposed to be the omniscient being the Ecclesiarchy would have you believe - he's human, in the end. He makes mistakes.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, the first thing you need to ask yourself is, "Did the Emperor really take that much time to begin with?"

"The First Heretic" reveals to us that the Emperor found Lorgar "over a century" before the destruction of Monarchia (which places his discovery at more than 161 years prior to Isstvan V, incidentally). At first glance, that would seem like a great deal of time to correct the wayward son's actions.

That's kind of a rough assumption, though, isn't?

In "Call of the Lion", for instance, we know that Astelan - whose Chapter is traveling in the "wilderness" between the galactic spiral arms - goes almost five years without success in terms of a finding a world to put to Compliance... or meeting with elements of his Legion.

The Word Bearers were known to take great amounts of time in prosecuting Compliance. They would depart only after the conquered population was wholly converted to the worship of the God-Emperor, and their planet turned into a temple to his cult. Lorgar is never described as being stupid, though he may have been naive on some level. He knew what he was doing was contrary to the will of his father, and thus cannot have been advertising his methods outright.

Aurelian's Word Bearers might have fought alongside other Legions, but they would not have been able to affect true Compliance if the XVII was not leading the effort. And even in a joint conquest, we know the Astartes are not ones to stay after the fighting is done. From "False Gods", though, we know that the Word Bearers did just that, leaving behind Chaplains and Astartes alike to bring about suitable conversion. As such, I think it's likely that - for a long time - other Astartes and Primarchs would have known of the XVII Legion's beliefs... but would not have reason to think they were more "rogue" than the Thousand Sons with their sorcery, or the World Eaters with their illegal cybernetics.

So time would have passed, and the biggest indicator the Emperor might have had that something was wrong would be the time elapsed between Compliances of the XVII Legion. His Imperium would be growing, and tithes/information would be coming from all conquered worlds, but I think it's fair to assume that Lorgar Aurelian ensured the men and women he ensconced as his father's agents on said planets. His charisma and oratory was such, that they, too, were probably "true believers".

Eventually, though, word would have gotten to the Emperor regarding what Lorgar was up to. At this point, I imagine he would have sent out a number of warnings, though each was probably sent only after word of yet another "religious" world came to him. It's been repeatedly mentioned, though, that it can take time for interstellar communication to travel across the Galaxy. Feel free to figure into that Lorgar's own reluctance to acknowledge unfavorable information.

The Emperor gets a bad reputation for his dealings with his sons, but people need to remember a few things:
1. The Emperor is not just a father; he is a totalitarian ruler looking to conquer the whole galaxy.
2. The Primarchs are not just the Emperor's sons; they are warlords who either relish total war or, at least, accept it as a viable tool for their sworn mission.
3. The Emperor's moral compass is not easily reconciled. His overriding concern is the preservation of the human species.
4. The Emperor has been shown to be benevolent and understanding in his dealings with others enough times that the idea of him being callous or uncaring falls flat. In fact, his signature move is along the lines of "I understand what you're going through, but you need to make this sacrifice for the greater good."
5. The Emperor understands that his Primarchs were compromised by their time scattered throughout the galaxy, but cannot afford to discard them. Thus, he has to give leeway to religious Lorgar, berserk Angron, sorcerous Magnus, etc.

Cheers,
P.


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