# TEWT #2 - Space Marines and Tau vs Chaos Space Marines



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Here is the second tactical situation for your scrutiny. The drawing is to scale.

*SITUATION*
It is currently the Chaos Space Marines' (CSM) Turn, they have just finished the movement phase.

*FORCES*
*Chaos Space Marines*
The Terminator base model is Abbadon, the others are Chaos Marines with Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, 2 Melta Guns and Veterans of the Long War. The Aspiring Champion is to the right of Abbadon (as the CSM look at the SM/Tau) and has 2 Lighting Claws.

Both units are in open ground.

*Space Marines (Green)*
Space Marine Assault Terminators with Commander Shadowsun attached.
The small circle at the back is Shadowsun, her drones are dead.
The two outer Terminators have lightning claws the rest Thunder Hammers. Sergeant is in the centre.
Warlord is Vulkan Hes'tan.

*Tau Empire Allies (Ochre)*
a squad of Firewarriors, Shas'ui is in the second rank, closest to Shadowsun

Both units are in Area Terrain.

*SITUATION DIAGRAM*










*EXERCISE REQUIREMENT*
Detail the best options for the CSM player in the Shooting and Assault Phases.

Same as last time PM me your answers.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

This one is easier 
btw you say warlord is vulkan, but he is not in the picture, right??


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

neferhet said:


> you say warlord is vulkan, but he is not in the picture, right??


Yes that's right.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

solution sent. I am sure i've missed some important part, here....


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Do the CSM have bolters or a pistol/CCW? It's a free upgrade and you haven't stated either one. That's potentially 13 more attacks (excluding the MG marines) for the CSM squad in CC.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The only changes to basic wargear are the ones mentioned


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Excellent. Been typing out a response between customers at work, will have that send soon hopefully.


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## CattleBruiser (Sep 3, 2011)

For those of us without the chaos book, is the base marine carrying a bolter or bp/ccw


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Do the CSM have bolters or a pistol/CCW? It's a free upgrade and you haven't stated either one. That's potentially 13 more attacks (excluding the MG marines) for the CSM squad in CC.





Magpie_Oz said:


> The only changes to basic wargear are the ones mentioned


So bolters and bolt pistols.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Got some good entries in so far.

I'll look at posting them in the next couple of days.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Most excellent. This one, to be honest, I found harder because of the inclusion of special characters. I had to look up a lot of stats/special rules whereas with the last one it was more: this is your option for survival.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The results are IN !

Did everyone get: 
- that the Tau can overwatch you if you charge the Termies ?
- it's almost impossible to not do a disorderly charge unless you're willing to leave out lots of your guys ?

*Neferhet*



I might be going full retard here...but...
In my perfect world the whole CSM unit shoots with pistols (because they have pistols + ccw to gain another attack, or not?) and melta into the terminator unit, causing 1 wound. due to 2+ cover it is hard to be happening but with an avarage 6 wounds caused, I can hope for a dead hammernator or a wound placed to Shadowsun. Then assault take place, no way the Khornate marines are going to fail charge due to minimum distance and reroll. Negligible Overwatch from shadowsun, at worst a wound to abaddon if i'm not missing some Tau shenanigan.

Chaos Space marine champion launch challenge, almost certainly accepted by terminator champion.

At this point Abaddon kills at least 2 Terminators (i'm considerning a roll of 2 on the daemon weapon attacks, so 9 attacks for him), 
the csm squad takes 3 wounds from claw termins but inflict at least another 2 unsaved wounds (1 to shadowsun if not previously wounded and the rest to claw termies) shadowsun deal no wounds, and the terminator champion quash the csm champion. The csm win combat by 1 due to Icon of wrath.

The temptation of a multiple charge is great but it would cost the CSM so many attacks that it would be really a bad solution, if they are to win combat.


*Natw*



Shooting Phase: As much as I wanted to shoot at the Tau to limit Overwatch, that changes my idea of charging multiple units. If I were to target the FWs, I would have to then move Abbadon into contact only with that squad and I would much rather have his AP2 weapon on the Terminators, even at I1 charging through cover. Honestly, I would expect maybe one kill from the MG models barring bad dice. Pistols are being shot to retain the ability to charge, but I doubt they will cause any wounds on the Terminators really.

Assault Phase: Disorderly charge on both units, Terminators/Shadowsun being the primary target as they were the ones shot at. MoK and IoW mean I'm re-rolling charge distances (so likely making it through cover) and get +2 attacks on the charge, so I can deal with not getting the bonus attack for charging all disorderly like. I would issue a challenge with the Abbadon, since he is the the most capable member of the squad. Overwatch has the potential to be brutal for Abbadon since he's in front and using T4 since that's the squad's majority. At least he's got a 2+ save and if one of those (non twin linked, phew) fusion blasters cause a wound BAM with dice on the table for that Look Out Sir! roll.

In the challenge: 

If against the Shas'iu, Abb's gunna win barring stupid dice. If I were playing the Tau I would certainly accept with this character and sacrifice him to stop Abby there from ripping into anyone else.

The Terminator sergeant with his 3++ has the best chance of surviving against the onslaught, but he only needs to fail one of the armour saves. So long as Abby doesn't roll a 1 for the Daemon weapon the maths say that is happening. 4 attacks base + 1 for 2 CCW and minimum +2 for the daemon weapon comes out to 1.037 wounds. I have a healthy distrust of dice, so I don't really trust that as well. 8 attacks is 1.185, 9 attacks is 1.333...basically just hope he doesn't roll a 1 for the daemon weapon.

If against Shadowsun, he will likely win. The only chance Shadowsun would have is if Abby rolled the doomed 1 for his sword.

For the rest of the squad, since the SM/Tau are so close together it will be easy to get in base to base with whoever I want it seems. Abbaddon is the closest, so he has to be put in contact with the person that is closest to him/in the primary target as per charging rules. That would likely be a TH/SS marine. I would be careful to try and get my models into as much base contact as possible across the board. Much of my attacks would be allocated on the Terminators, but depending on how it all lies at the end of the charge the FW might get a few extra punches swung their way. The Aspiring Champion would go base to base with Fire Warriors in order to shred them into more digestible bits and garner some wounds for the end of combat. With the other 14 marines having 42 attacks on the charge (1 base and 2 each for Rage) (Remember you lose Rage extra attacks in a disordered charge), there would be much dice rolling for those termies (and even a few FWs depending on how smushed in it gets).

Good luck, Chaos. I see you coming out on top, but by how much I'm just not willing to do the math on. Either way, they aren't sweeping the Terminators so they'll likely be stuck in for another round.


Cattlebruiser



I'm not really seeing much choice here. Those TH/SS termies really can't be allowed to charge.

Shooting Phase:
1. Everyone shoots bolt pistols at the termies

Assault PHase:
1. Charge termies
2. Abaddon eats overwatch from everyone without LoSing unless he gets really unlucky and drops to 1 wound before all the overwatch shots are resolved
3. Abaddon challenges instead of the champion because otherwise he'd probably single handedly take out the unit, leaving the marines open to be rapid fired by the fire warriors next turn. 
4. If Shadowsun accepted the challenge, use the talon to insta squish shadowsun (and AP3 sill bypasses armour). If the Termie sarge accepted, use the daemon weapon because AP2.
5. hope that with all the attacks from the marines with all the re-rolls for hatred and preferred enemy, you'll be able to kill most of the termies before they can strike

Next turn:

-If the chaos marines destroyed the termie unit, they're just going to eat a turn of shooting from the firewarriors then are going to charge and annihilate the firewarriors.

-If the termies are still stuck in combat, have abaddon use his daemon weapon and the marines are just going to mop up the remains of the termies and charge and destroy the firewarriors in the chaos turn.


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## heckyeah (Mar 4, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'm not really seeing much choice here. Those TH/SS termies really can't be allowed to charge.


Why? Unless I'm missing something (I don't have either codex or play either SM or Tau much so I may be) the SM terminators are charging through cover so are reduced to initiative 1 and should get clobbered by the CSM who still get an extra attack each for counter attack and reroll 1s to hit and wound. 

I'm surprised no one suggested rapid firing the firewarriors (8 kills) and letting the terminators charging you which is a contest you will at least tie on and may win outright. 

Since no one suggested this it makes me think I have missed something. If so let me know.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The results are IN !
> 
> Did everyone get:
> - that the Tau can overwatch you if you charge the Termies ?
> ...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> (Remember you lose Rage extra attacks in a disordered charge)


Damn, it was in the Rage rule and the wording in the Disordered Charge rule made me think it was only the +1 for attacks. It's been a while since I got down on the specifics of Rage! I've never actually made a disordered charge with my DC and found out :laugh:



neferhet said:


> Did everyone get:
> - that the Tau can overwatch you if you charge the Termies ?
> this one i missed...why is it so?


Supporting Fire. Check it in the Tau 'dex, C:SM units are battle brothers and benefit from it.



neferhet said:


> - it's almost impossible to not do a disorderly charge unless you're willing to leave out lots of your guys ?
> this one i do not agree, being the average charge range with the reroll 9", plus the 2" from base to base model in wich you can still attack..how could you be leaving many guys out of the fight?


Due to the rules for how you move your models into a charge, and the closeness of the bases you certainly wouldn't get all of your models in on a charge only to the Terminators. I had to re-read that section in the rulebook, and must adjust the way models move into combat slightly.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

heckyeah said:


> Why? Unless I'm missing something (I don't have either codex or play either SM or Tau much so I may be) the SM terminators are charging through cover so are reduced to initiative 1 and should get clobbered by the CSM who still get an extra attack each for counter attack and reroll 1s to hit and wound.
> 
> I'm surprised no one suggested rapid firing the firewarriors (8 kills) and letting the terminators charging you which is a contest you will at least tie on and may win outright.
> 
> Since no one suggested this it makes me think I have missed something. If so let me know.


Can you edit your quote to show who actually made the statement, that way they may be prompted to respond to your query. 

As it is the TEWT concerns itself mainly with the CSM moves however as the Terminator have Thunder Hammers they attack at Ini 1 anyway.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The problem the CSM have is that Abaddon must charge first at the closest Termie. 

The next model to charge MUST end its move in coherency with Abaddon but it must also try to get into base contact with an enemy model that has no one in base contact, because the way the Tau are placed it is quite hard to do that. 

The CSM squad will end up very spread out after it's charge with a number of models having to be "links" to maintain coherency. having to stay out of base contact with the Tau will hinder this.

I'm not sure what happens if the CSM are within 1" of the Tau at the end of the phase.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'm not sure what happens if the CSM are within 1" of the Tau at the end of the phase.


Knowing the dudes I play with, we would have said that you simply have to make a Disorderly Charge. There's nothing in the rulebook about it happening in the moving charging models section, but we'd look back to the whole inability to move within 1" of an enemy unit for guidance.

How would you have played it, Magpie? The whole scenario in general, that it. Though I'm also curious as to how you would call the whole ending placement within 1" of a unit you aren't charging thing.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I'd probably shoot the terminators and multi-charge and hope for the best.

As for the 1" thing I think I'd be saying they simply stay where they end up and in the next turn must move away, a bit like regaining coherency.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

So, shooting the terminators? Wouldnt it be better to shoot the tau to reduce overwatch?
And now I understand the issue about the models not being able to make it into combat.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

neferhet said:


> So, shooting the terminators? Wouldnt it be better to shoot the tau to reduce overwatch?
> And now I understand the issue about the models not being able to make it into combat.


TBH I really don't have that much fear of overwatch. The Tau's 24 shots will yield maybe 2 or 3 wounds, Abbadon should save all of them, I'd not bother with LoS.

I think my fire power is better used to prepare for the coming assault and take out as many Termies as I can.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Fair enough. Abadonn munches the terminators and the low troopers grind the taus.
It is going to be a 2+ turns fight, due to the lack of bonus charge attacks.
Still...


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## w0lfgang7 (Feb 10, 2013)

Learned more about the finer points of the game again by reading the answers and the follow-on posts. Thanks again for the TEWT *Magpie_Oz!*


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

w0lfgang7 said:


> Learned more about the finer points of the game again by reading the answers and the follow-on posts. Thanks again for the TEWT *Magpie_Oz!*


Agree! I'm waiting for the 3rd!


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Next one will be an "own Codex" one.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Like, you mean we will have to own the codex to figure it out?


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