# Two months on, how are you finding 8th?



## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

So, Fantasy 8th Edition was released about two and a half months ago now, so we've all had a chance to put it through it's paces. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, there has been quite a bit of both praising and griping about this edition. For those in the tournament scene especially, there seems to be a lot of people who think the game needs tweaks and balances to work well as a competitive game. While the arguments over 8th continue, we've seen a number of our top players, people who helped to grow a vibrant Fantasy community in Aus, taking breaks from the game and trying out other systems, even as some newer players are joining, attracted by the new edition.

So, people are debating the merits of 8th. Some think it's refreshing, far more fun and spontaneous, and more balanced between army books. Others consider it to be less tactical, that warmachines/big magic can decide a game too easily, and that luck plays a much greater hand in the victory now days. 

With all that in mind, I thought I'd put up a quick post, and see how people are finding the game, gauge what the Heresy community thinks about the new edition.

So, here's some questions for you:

1) what are your observations of warhammer 8th? What has changed, what didn't, and what surprised you? 

2) Does it need some tweaks to play well? Does it work as a competitive game, right out of the box, or does it need definite restrictions to create good games in a tournament setting? 

3) Do luck, tactics and list building mean more, less or the same in the new edition, as in 7th?

4) Are you Happy with the game? If you're a long term player, has 8th given you a new reason to enjoy the game, or has it lost your interest? 

5) What are the general reactions of the gaming communities in your area? Both from local groups, and in the tournament Scene?

6) Any general comments on 8th? (or questions I should add )


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

I was surprised by the new magic definetly, both the (Over)powered aspects, and the way it was run. The new combat rules were defintly a welcome change, because they actually made sense, (take a hint GW! your on to something!) I dont really have any complaints with it as is, I think it will work fine for a tournament setting as well.

I think that in some respects, tactics have lost a lot of their meaning in some phases, for example the movement phase, gone are the days of careful march blocking and flanking set ups, now with a 2d6 charge units can get turn two charges! But I think a lot more thought and strategy has to go into list building, no more lawl spam 30 swordmasters with dragon


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

_1) what are your observations of warhammer 8th? What has changed, what didn't, and what surprised you?_
The biggest change is army balance: suddenly its big slow blocks of infantry with less of the free wheeling fast units spinning around the board. I was surprised they didnt mess with the turn sequence.. I was looking forward to that.

_2) Does it need some tweaks to play well? Does it work as a competitive game, right out of the box, or does it need definite restrictions to create good games in a tournament setting?_
Oh hell yes- a rebalancing of the rules has left some units ungodly powerful and nerfed others... and done it on the sly. I would have loved to see FAQ/errata rebalance those units to make them more useful or in-balance with the new rules; it wouldnt have worked but would have been nice of them to try. Power Scroll needs restrictions (like not used for turns 1-3), Teclis is stupid and some of the spells are just too uber... but the thing that annoys me is the 50pt heavy cav model which is now almost useless or something like ogre's yhettes: a nice unit in 7th with a purpose, but now in 8th they are basically bulls with +1M strider +1S and double the cost... but have no useful command and cant have characters (cut their points by 40% and you have a fun special unit that is almost the same as core but with fun extras, but as is they are ridiculous).

_3) Do luck, tactics and list building mean more, less or the same in the new edition, as in 7th?_
I have to say that with anything other then WE my tactics have just gone. The only tactics that are involved are in designing the list to work. After that its just a combination of luck and target priority (which is tactical, but not tactics) and trying to force the game to be played as your army wants it to be. Luck is a huge factor now: mission type, getting that 1-2 uber spell/s you wanted/needed, getting the winds of magic you need, irrisistable force when needed, bad miscast results and charges making the distance are all massive. 
Eg HE vs dwarves- might play blood and gold with a HE mage on eagle rolling final transmutation, getting first turn and flying up and getting irrisitable force against the dwarves main unit, killing the general and BSB and winning the game before the dwarves move. Similarly ogres vs a gunline: if the ogres are ~14" away and declare charges then the game hinges almost solely on those charge roles: if they make it to combat the gunline is toast, if they dont they'll be mincemeat (extra round of shooting at close range, followed by close range stand and shoot) as ogres are too fragile to take that.
I like that added luck makes it more like a real fight where your troops can fail, I just think its a little OTT.

_4) Are you Happy with the game? If you're a long term player, has 8th given you a new reason to enjoy the game, or has it lost your interest?_
Its a fun edition, more so then 7th... but its lost the reason why I was so passionate about it. If I'm after a bit of semi-mindless fun I'll crack out my 40k and go blatter away at the enemy... but when I got out my 7th ed WFB I knew I would need to carefully think about each move and that the wrong move could lose me the battle. Its still more involved then 40k but I just think GW has gone too far in making it accessibly to smaller kids (good buisness decision maybe, but bad gaming one).

_5) What are the general reactions of the gaming communities in your area? Both from local groups, and in the tournament Scene?_
We've seeing a bit of an arms race: bigger block units which most people can only counter with bigger units of their own. People keep telling me I'm beardy to use an ogre bull hoard unit and it is very basty... its also nearly 700pts, easy to pound into nothing, easy to snare in combat and is just plain destroyed by some spells.. but while I would love to split it up to have more units (after playing MSU with 4 ogres per unit max suddenly to have 18 is stupid) but then I simply cannot contend with any enemy hoards in combat (a serious problem for a combat army with basically no offensive magic).

_6) Any general comments on 8th?_
Its fun enough, but personally I think it lacks the addictiveness of 7th... and while I might have been engrossed in what happened in 7th tournies I dont really care about 8th. Suddenly its down to getting a couple of nasty spells or lucky roles, rather then some excellent tactics...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that the game has improved considerably, I enjoy playing much more than I did in 7th Ed, which was very nit-picky, and very much "not fun".

I think before complaining about balance, people need to realise that what, one maybe two army books were written with this ruleset in mind? Give GW time to bring out new army books, and hopefully the balance will come back, especially for older armies that were due a new book anyway.

I am a little pissed off at the FAQs, some of the decisions make no sense at all. I think people playtested the rules, but no-one appears to have playtested the FAQs for the new rules. T10 Stank? Teclis? Some of the magic item changes/updates are stupid as well. This problem will go away with new army books though.

_As it stands right now_, the power balance is significantly off. However I think once they replace 3-4 army books then I think it'll be the best edition yet.


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## VeronaKid (Jan 7, 2010)

1) what are your observations of warhammer 8th? What has changed, what didn't, and what surprised you? 
Obviously, movement and magic were the two biggest changes, with maneuvering becoming much less of an issue and magic becoming way more dominant. I like the fact that heavy cavalry is no longer the be-all, end-all factor in games, but I lament the fact that heavy cav has just been displaced by Level 4 Mages throwing around the uber spells.

2) Does it need some tweaks to play well? Does it work as a competitive game, right out of the box, or does it need definite restrictions to create good games in a tournament setting? 
I think that there are some obvious tweaks that might make the game better. Of course, it goes without saying that I am just throwing these out and haven't actually playtested them, as is the norm for bitching posts here.  
1. The steadfast rule really shouldn't apply if you're charged in the flank. We've covered this numerous times in the past, and I don't need to rehash all those thousands of posts.
2. You should only need 5, not 2 ranks of 5, enemy models in your flank to remove rank bonuses. I hate Chaos Knights with a passion, but forcing WoC players to fit 12-15 Knights into their tourney lists is near impossible, and it kills many of the quintessential WHFB units (Chaos Knights, Dragon Princes, Blood Knights, etc.)
3. 12 needs to be an absolute limit for power dice generated per magic phase. Things like Death magic being able to generate 12 at the start of the phase, and then adding to the pool throughout the phase, and magic items that constantly generate close to 12 dice regardless of the amount of dispel dice (Banner of Sorcery, many Staffs, etc.) have become too powerful with the advent of the uber-spells.

3) Do luck, tactics and list building mean more, less or the same in the new edition, as in 7th?
I think that luck is still about the same, though I might see things differently if I regularly was on the receiving end of 13" Dwarven charges. I actually believe that list writing is less important in this edition, as so many units have been weakened in the new rules while strengthening core and basic infantry. These are good, good things.

4) Are you Happy with the game? If you're a long term player, has 8th given you a new reason to enjoy the game, or has it lost your interest? 
Very happy. I like that the rules are simpler, as it's made it easier for me to concentrate on what my army does best.

5) What are the general reactions of the gaming communities in your area? Both from local groups, and in the tournament Scene?
Seems like more people are playing right now; we'll see if the newness wears off and WHFB returns to the shadows behind 40K a year from now.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Tim/Steve has pretty much summed up everything I've got to say about the game. Some spells are ridiculously overpowered and easy to exploit...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

maddermax said:


> So, Fantasy 8th Edition was released about two and a half months ago now, so we've all had a chance to put it through it's paces. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, there has been quite a bit of both praising and griping about this edition. For those in the tournament scene especially, there seems to be a lot of people who think the game needs tweaks and balances to work well as a competitive game. While the arguments over 8th continue, we've seen a number of our top players, people who helped to grow a vibrant Fantasy community in Aus, taking breaks from the game and trying out other systems, even as some newer players are joining, attracted by the new edition.
> 
> So, people are debating the merits of 8th. Some think it's refreshing, far more fun and spontaneous, and more balanced between army books. Others consider it to be less tactical, that warmachines/big magic can decide a game too easily, and that luck plays a much greater hand in the victory now days.
> 
> ...


Don't like Magic Lores, or the lack of being able to use multiple casters of a lore, but otherwise it's fine. Don't like the random charge distances, or the horde features - for example, CW hordes - although expensive, they're still huge armoured men 8 foot high in full plate armour twice the width of a man - the fact that they can still "horde" against Pikemen in a small block (i.e 3 ranks fighting through when around 6-10 Pikes/Spears would be able to fight one "IRL") is a bit stretching, and broken as it now relies on 3 great blocks.

It's something I'd prefer to see for an "Apocalypse" style game, but not in normal battles, where I'm forced to play my "scouting" style armies against an enemy with an immovable block of flankless dwarves with a T4 4+/6++ and two ranks of Crossbows to fire with.



> 2) Does it need some tweaks to play well? Does it work as a competitive game, right out of the box, or does it need definite restrictions to create good games in a tournament setting?


Aside from returning to 8th, fix the above issues, and I'd be quite fine.



> 3) Do luck, tactics and list building mean more, less or the same in the new edition, as in 7th?


Luck has a greater factor than 7th, less so than 6th, but then again, so does the correct build matter more than 7th, but less than 6th.



> 4) Are you Happy with the game? If you're a long term player, has 8th given you a new reason to enjoy the game, or has it lost your interest?


I'm playing less and less due to the people who are coming up. I'm sounding like an old fart, I know with my back in the day, speeches, but it's lost it's appetite for me. I much prefer to play the campaign style battles from Imperial Armour and the like, and the background of the game. And mathhammering combinations for the sheer hell of it, but I'm never going to collect it like I did in 6th and 7th.



> 5) What are the general reactions of the gaming communities in your area? Both from local groups, and in the tournament Scene?


hordes of 13 year olds, less and less older "competitive" players, even less and less "fluff" players, and a general dislike of the cartoon shit the modellers are putting out.



> 6) Any general comments on 8th? (or questions I should add )


Chaos Dwarves are coming from Forge World. I'll be looking into getting them rather than a new army, I think - matches my Elysians and Navy Tactical Wings.


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Sethis said:


> I think that the game has improved considerably, I enjoy playing much more than I did in 7th Ed, which was very nit-picky, and very much "not fun".
> 
> I think before complaining about balance, people need to realise that what, one maybe two army books were written with this ruleset in mind? Give GW time to bring out new army books, and hopefully the balance will come back, especially for older armies that were due a new book anyway.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Teclis needs to go away forever. He's the most OP thing in this entire game, able to solo armies.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

1) Movement, magic, and close combat are very different, and for 2/3 I think it's a major improvement. Magic is also improved in many ways, but as others have mentioned, they neglected to cap the power or individual spells and some character's abilities, allowing a single spell to easily determine the course of a game, which is too powerful. 

2) It really needs magic capped in some way to keep people from throwing every die they have when casting the more game breaking spells. Otherwise, the game is pretty solid. I don't agree with the belief that huge units of 50-60 infantry are game breaking. They die easily enough when you use war machines and magic against them.

3) Luck definitely matters more in the magic phase, but it matters less in close combat. With a greater number of attacks, we're not having 5-10 dice rolls determine the fates of hundreds anymore, which is a good thing. Tactics are a bit more important than it used to be, since magic can change the game so easily.

4) 8th has certainly made the game flow better, and I like how it revolves more around playing than planning. I just wish that magic worked a bit better.

5) Apart from some tweaking here and there, it runs very similar to how it used to. Most players are experimenting with the armies they have, and many lists that weren't competitive in 7th are suddenly competitive again (High Elves, Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, etc).

6) With Ogres you definitely need large blocks now, but I think 18-20 is overkill, and will suffer too much from spells like purple sun. Instead, I'd use 2 units of 10-12 (this number includes attached characters). To defeat large blocks of troops, you need to either do a LOT of damage the first round, or have a BSB within range, or even have the crown of command, which works very well for the Ogres.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

maddermax said:


> So, Fantasy 8th Edition was released about two and a half months ago now, so we've all had a chance to put it through it's paces. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, there has been quite a bit of both praising and griping about this edition. For those in the tournament scene especially, there seems to be a lot of people who think the game needs tweaks and balances to work well as a competitive game. While the arguments over 8th continue, we've seen a number of our top players, people who helped to grow a vibrant Fantasy community in Aus, taking breaks from the game and trying out other systems, even as some newer players are joining, attracted by the new edition.
> 
> So, people are debating the merits of 8th. Some think it's refreshing, far more fun and spontaneous, and more balanced between army books. Others consider it to be less tactical, that warmachines/big magic can decide a game too easily, and that luck plays a much greater hand in the victory now days.
> 
> ...


That is my not so humble opinion. Because being humble is overrated.


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## Maxwell256 (Mar 15, 2008)

WOW! If you want Teclis to be removed from the game, I want all The Greater Demons to be removed also. There is a reason Teclis, The Greater Demons, The Vermin Lord, and other LORDS are 400-500 points. That is 1/4 of a 2000 point army. I just thought that some prospective was needed on that. I really hate Greater Demons.

I an still not sure about some aspects of the 8th edition, but I think that are a great improvement over 7th


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

The problem with Teclis is that he isn't over 500 points (so you can field him in a 2000 point game) and he can cast one of those aforementioned game breaking spells EVERY TURN OF THE GAME, and there's no real way to stop him, other than to hit his unit with everything you have, allowing the rest of the army to maneuver around you and strike.

I never said the High Elves were undercosted, far from it. There's just no real way to counter Teclis at the moment, especially during the first half of the game.


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## VeronaKid (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm a High Elf player, and even I have to admit that Teclis is just too powerful right now.

Grax said it exactly right: with the new % system (in place of slots), Teclis is available in 2000 point games, which is the "standard," at least everywhere I've played. To have a mage that can cast Dwellers/Pit of Shades/Purple Sun/Transformation every single turn irresistably is bad enough; but when you add in all of his other abilities (ignoring miscasts, all the extra power dice, etc.) he puts those uber spells on top of buffs, missiles, and hexes turn after turn after turn. I would NEVER consider playing Teclis in one of my armies, for the simple fact that I understand how frustrating it would be to play against him, and I sincerely want my opponent to have fun when we're playing.

Wait a minute. How the hell did this thread turn into ANOTHER High Elf whining thread??!!:wink:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Maxwell256 said:


> WOW! If you want Teclis to be removed from the game, I want all The Greater Demons to be removed also. There is a reason Teclis, The Greater Demons, The Vermin Lord, and other LORDS are 400-500 points. That is 1/4 of a 2000 point army. I just thought that some prospective was needed on that. I really hate Greater Demons.


Bloodthirsters can (and frequently do) eat a cannonball on turn 1 and get removed from play before moving, or even coming close to combat. My local Daemons player doesn't take his 'Thirster any more due to the new cannon rules, it's just a waste of 500 points.

Teclis is almost immune to such things. Slap him in a unit of 30-50 Sea Guard and you're not winkling him out of there in a hurry.


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