# 'The Generals of Undeath' - New VC Book



## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Okay, here's some thinkin' ... but first the quote ...



> _'Every Vampire Counts army is animated and driven onwards by the sorcery of its General. Your army's General must be a Wizard. If he is able to choose a spell lore, he must use the Lore of the Vampires.'_


So, this essentially means that on a generic _Vampire Lord_ you'll be stuck with the _Lore of the Vampires_ almost all the time, except in those rare cases where'd you bring either _Vlad_ or _Count Manfred_ to the table as well as an additional _Vampire Lord_.

Because in all other cases, the _Vampire Lord_ would be your army's general by default 'cause of his *10 LD*. He outmatches the _Master Necromancer _as well as he'd outmatch _Kemmler_.
Thus, even when one would include a _Master Necromancer_ as well as a _Vampire Lord_, the Lord would still be stuck with the _Lore of the Vampires_. 

The possibility to have a Lord ever make good use of the option to wield spells from the either the _Lore of Death_ or the _Lore of Shadows_ is almost non-existent, except in those rare cases where you'd field either two Lords or one Lord plus one of the aforementioned special characters. That's a bit ... _meh _... if you ask me.

Also, it literally means, that the _'Forbidden Lore'_ power would most often be used on regular _Vampires _for the same reasons as stated above (Since most people simply aren't fielding two Lords at a time ...).

Did I get this right ... and .. what are your opinions on it ?


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I think that you will find some people running a lvl 2 or 3 vampire with a lvl 3 necromanser due to the benefits of higher levels in casting the new Invocation of Nehek and the costs, number and utility of vampiric powers now being more limited. You do not need to max out vampiric powers (nor would you likely want to with the more limited mix and changes). You can run a decent vampire lord with a lvl 3 master necro at 2500 points. If you are playing at or below 2000 points, yes, one vamp lord is really all you can run. You really want that to be your general anyway due to the ability to now buy armour separately and use the common magic items and use the vamp lore to restore wounds. Also, a lvl 1 vamp bsb is more likely now instead of the wight king BSB. With the change in the crumble rule, having more than one caster having vamp lore spells is important (losing the general only requires one LD test/crumble for non-vamp units now as long as another character has a vamp spell ability). 


Invocation of Nehek is now an area effect spell, boosting multiple units, and gives D6+ level new models to infantry, 1+ level for non-infantry units not having vampiric or large target or ethereal characteristics. That 1+level boost may may more levels for casters more valuable if running black knights, crypt horrors (look very competitive), and dire wolves. 

It looks like they sought to balance the army (it was overpowered in 7th edition and top tier still in 8th edition) by taking away some of the tricks (vamps cannot generate 2 extra power dice, too away the Helm to boost WS of units, took away the regen banner, and wind of undeath was toned down in wind of death) and revising points costs (ghouls more expensive as they should be). But GW made the army balanced and competitive by giving some interesting new units (crypt horrors look good), a decent magic lore consistent with 8th edition, revising necros, repricing and revising skellies and zombies, replacing some of the vampiric powers with allowing vampires to simply buy heavy armour, shields, weapons, and mounts like characters in other armies. 

Overall, it looks like a lot of thought was given to writing the book to avoid broken combos and fit the army well within 8th edition but still give the army a number of interesting viable winning strategies and fix the lore to fit 8th edition and, yet, still fit the vampire theme and preserve the viability of units played in prior editions. I find the new GW marketing strategy of adding a new dual kit monster or chariot or something kind of irritating but I understand they want to make money. At least, they seem to be intent on creating interesting and balanced army books in 8th edition, preserving the viability of units from prior editions, and adding multiple winning options to the books. 

I also do not mind the limiting and simplifying of the choices for army-specific magic items and special abilities (vampiric powers or big names). The only complaint is GW making the army-specific magic items in the 8th edition army books often over-costed such that most are not playable. It seems like only a couple or few army-specific magic items in each new book are even worth considering playing. Why even waste the space with items that no one should be playing given their points costs?


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

olderplayer said:


> I think that you will find some people running a lvl 2 or 3 vampire with a lvl 3 necromanser due to the benefits of higher levels in casting the new Invocation of Nehek and the costs, number and utility of vampiric powers now being more limited. You do not need to max out vampiric powers (nor would you likely want to with the more limited mix and changes). You can run a decent vampire lord with a lvl 3 master necro at 2500 points. If you are playing at or below 2000 points, yes, one vamp lord is really all you can run. You really want that to be your general anyway due to the ability to now buy armour separately and use the common magic items and use the vamp lore to restore wounds. Also, a lvl 1 vamp bsb is more likely now instead of the wight king BSB. With the change in the crumble rule, having more than one caster having vamp lore spells is important (losing the general only requires one LD test/crumble for non-vamp units now as long as another character has a vamp spell ability).



Yes, I agree pretty much on those things and thank you for your thoughts on the matter. Yet, it's only marginally related to what I was referring to, namely the difficulty to include any _Lores of Magic_ besides the obvious (and mandatory) _Lore of the Vampires_.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

It's not too difficult to inlcude Lore Of Death. Necromancers are cheap (even at lvl 2) and can use Lore Of Death (as can hero choice Vampires). It is difficult to include anything other than Lore Of Vampires on a Vampire Lord though. I think that's for the best though otherwise you risk the army becoming over-powered and losing army and game balance.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Considering how amazing our new lore is and how it synergises with our army, I don't see this as a problem.

You can always keep your Lord to a Lv1 or 2 caster and simply use them as an invocation battery, and Necro Lords are cheap aschips for a Lv4 caster who can then do the heavy lifting. (while also being far better at taking over should your general die than any thrall or basic necro could!)

If you *really* want a Lv3/4 with forbidden lore, then you'll have to suck it up and fork out for 2 lords... Not hard really, just keep your general as a Lv1 with basic gear, a 5pts magic weapon and a ward save = solid fighter!
Then splurge on your Light/Beasts/Metal/Heavens/Shadows caster.

However, I see the new fobidden lore power as being just as decent for this edition since you can combo it much better on a thrall as it's cheaper, alongside being able to outright purchase the Lv2 upgrade.
Besides, I think the main reason for taking forbidden lore is to get the off buff spells such as Wyssan's Wildform. Shadow magic isn't as good for us since our units either have below average stats already, or else don't get nearly the benifit from mindrazzor as other do thanks to our crap Ld across the board. (and anyways, the units that have decent Ld can already get high strength attacks, so what really the point?!)

Being more limited perhaps on taking lots of Death magic might seem like a nerf, but I really feel that our own lore gives us enough to get by as it is. (re-rolls out the wazoo, solid MM spell & horde-killing on top of invocation being the sig spell)


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Personally I'm glad that vampires are still the generals in a VC army list; I really got tired of never seeing them before the previous book.
That said...
The limited magic items makes the new VC very underpowered compared to other armies; so do the new points costs to buy any of the units. I really liked being able to customize a Vampire Lord without having to use special characters.
I mean seriously, one magic weapon that costs 75 points?
Two banners?
Come on, now...


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Personally I'm glad that vampires are still the generals in a VC army list; I really got tired of never seeing them before the previous book.
> That said...
> The limited magic items makes the new VC very underpowered compared to other armies; so do the new points costs to buy any of the units. I really liked being able to customize a Vampire Lord without having to use special characters.
> I mean seriously, one magic weapon that costs 75 points?
> ...


Yes, we're complete screwed! Only 9 of our own unique magic items which are all easily worth using, and then being shoehorned with the 80+ items in the rulebook?!?
Seriously, vampires are a helluva lot better now - notice the statline buffs at all?!
Combined with the new list of powers which are pretty cheap and allow you to still field combat monsters or reliable casters with access to any lore but life.

And that magic weapon you're so keen on poo-poo'ing, try it out on a ghoul king w/curse of the revenant + aura of dark magjesty, slap him on a terrorghiest and see how shit it really is!

The old 7th ed combos are dead & buried - get over them and start tinkering with the new options we now have!
I can honestly forsee the glitering scales becoming a staple item on pretty much every fighty lord for example.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

My favourite combo is the von Carstein Dream Team: more details here.

EDIT: The Fusrodah combo is also quite popular. Taking a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist, with Scabscrath, Curse of the Revenant, and Aura of Dark Majesty. Two Screams, with enemy at minus one leadership, and both adding plenty of bonus modifiers due to the wounds they have!


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

experiment 626 said:


> Yes, we're complete screwed! Only 9 of our own unique magic items which are all easily worth using, and then being shoehorned with the 80+ items in the rulebook?!?
> Seriously, vampires are a helluva lot better now - notice the statline buffs at all?!
> Combined with the new list of powers which are pretty cheap and allow you to still field combat monsters or reliable casters with access to any lore but life.
> 
> ...


Except most of those main book items are crap.
GW is taking the flavour out of every army they have, which is sad...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I've had some time with the new book now and just finished transcribing the whole book into my Battle Chronicler catalogue so I had a good read of all the rules. I have to say this is a best written army book I have ever seen Games Workshop produce. Everything references Special Rules, nothing is that ambiguous (there's a couple of questions but nothing major really. Nothing which reasonable players wont resolve), everything is has clarifications and I love the Designers Notes which just remind you of things in the main rules, like the Strigoi Ghoul Kings can't wear magical armour reminder. 

Looking at the choices themselves : 

Lords

Count Mannfred - He's still a magical power house although tipped just outside of a 2000 point game. Lore Master of Vampires and Death is always going to be strong and one of only 2 Lore Masters we can have. No ward saves makes Mannfred a sad panda, especially on an Abyssal Terror. 

Heinrich Kemmler - This guy is going to be an auto-include for a lot of people, a Magical-Ethereal-Pricknought of a caster. To me he seems cheap for what he can do with Lore Master Vampires and Master of the Dead, together with Ethereal. The revealing all magic items within 12" is just a nice little bonus really. 

Vlad Von Carstein - I really think this guy in playable now, at a shade under 500pts with the Carstein Ring meaning he's really hard to kill. He's a Level 3 Wizard as well which means you don't have to scrimp too much on magical power to fit him in. 5 S6 attacks a turn at WS7 is nothing to be sniffed at. 

Master Necromancer - This is your go to general for lower points values, with Master of the Dead and the Lvl 4 Wizard Upgrade he's just 220pts. I would avoid the Abyssal Terror or Corpse Cart for him though, just leaves him too vurnerable. 

Vampire Lord - People are complaining a lot that they've removed a lot of the flavour from Vampire Counts but I honestly cannot see where they are coming from. You can now buy Armour and Mounts separately So you want a Blood Knight? Take Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Barded Nightmare, Quickblood, Dreadnight and Master Strike. There you go, 5 S7 Attacks at WS9 with ASF on the Charge. Add Magic Items to taste. Any flavour of Vampire can be made, you just have to have some imagination. GW aren't going to lead you by the hand to write your fluff for you. You don't get the Lahmian starter kit (for example) , you have to play pretend which is if fine as you're already playing pretend. The Monster mounts are still weak as Cannons still exist. 

Strigoi Ghoul King - This guy is totally boss, I8 and 5 attacks at strength 5 is pretty good, give him Skabscrath and Red Fury and he's a very bad man, with 6/7 Attacks with Re-rolls to hit and Red fury after that. Give him a Potion of Strength if you decide you want him to try and kill everyone, including those annoying T8 Tomb King Warsphinx things.

Heroes

Isabella Von Carstein - She's ok, if you're using Vlad throw her in, otherwise she's just a bit pricey.

Konrad Von Carstein - If you have an Ogre problem then Konrad is your go to guy, Multiple Wounds (2) and Red Fury make Orges a sad panda. 

Krell, Lord of Undeath - Can't say I think he's worth the points, only 3 attacks makes him an unreliable prospect. 

Mannfred the Acolyte - If you want a hero caster this is you guy. Level 2 Lore Master of Vampires for a fairly low price. I like him even if he is hard to keep alive with no ward. 

Vampire - Even though they cost a little more than before Hero Vampires are still really solid, the ability to buy armour and weapons outside of the Vampiric powers allowance means having one to lead your Knights or something is a genuine prospect now. 

Necromancer - They're cheap and cheerful, Invocation monkies who can roll in your Zombie Bunkers or on a Corpse Cart. Even though you can take Lore of Death I don't see many people doing that as LD7 makes the signature spell useless. 

Wight King - This guy is pretty solid if you want a character killer, Throw Nightshroud and shield with Heavy armour and throw him into challenges. T5 with a 3+ armour save when he's Killing Blow. Good if you want a BSB as well. 

Tomb Banshee and Cairn Wraiths - Good for adding Terror to a unit so that it causes fear against Orges etc. Bit pricey though. 

Core

Crypt Ghouls - Even at their new points value these guys rock faces, I would still expect to see a lot of them in lists.

Skeletons - Vastly improved with the points reduction, and the ubiquitous Screaming Banner making them an excellent tarpit when supported by a Necromancer. Not sure I would ever take the Spears as it means giving up the Parry save. 

Zombies - ZOMBIESSS. T3 and the points reduction makes these guys viable along with the AoE Invocation. It means you don't need to waste a precious spell casting razing Zombies, you just get some for free. If someone get stuck in a Zombie pit that's them for the game unless something goes catastrophically wrong. 

Dire Wolves - I'm seeing a lot of love for these guys, with Slavering Charge and Movement 9 and Vanguard. The problem being they can't march outside of General range making their movement 9 less useful, and even with Slavering Charge they're still pretty terrible. I think they will need some testing.

I'll construct my thoughts about the Specials and Rares for another post.


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