# gw digital copy stuff is getting bad reveiws from customers



## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

lol i went to look at the new codex spacemarines on itunes and i saw the reveiws (i hope this hasnt been done before)

heres one by latro man

How is paying $45 for a digital copy justified when its almost the same price as the hardcopy ?
As with all games workshops products being sold on iTunes , its normally similar price or more expensive than buying the hardcopy.
Pricing structure need to be looked at. 

another one by andrew wood

hey guys love that finally games workshop has come online with the book, I play space marines . The issue that I have with this book is the price, $30 is fine for a $45 hard copy, but if you want to stop "acquiring" a digital copy drop the price and you will sell more here. Its not a zero sum game you need to price things so downloaded is the least preferred option. I only play with my brought copy (hard copy) and would love to buy this but at $45 australian its just not worth it… Plus what will happen when 6th edition drops and changes the codex?? We all can see it coming and I love that idea but will you let me re download the new copy for free since another codex is coming soon??

I love the hobby and have been playing for over 10 years but I'm questioning the way our hobby is taken advantage of. I know it costs money to develop new ideas with fin cast, the R&D, paint line and all the story that goes with it but I'm beginning to question the pricing of games workshop as there is a lot of hobbies out there that are in a similar fashion to GW and its always competing with online gaming with xbox and such, but please rethink this price point.

and one more by fnolinger 

This is nothing more than a very polished PDF version of the codex with some additions. Very pretty, very smooth but ultimately adds nothing worth $45, especially if you already own the original content. 

There needs to be an army builder and GW needs to promise to update these with new releases and errata. 



wow they do have a point. thoughts?


(though this is what zion was talking about in why gw hates the internet)


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

For every 1 complainant you'll find 2 sycophants.

And as of yet it has to recieve a real testing by the gaming community. They have been out a very short time so far. Give it chance, you will start to see people praising the ground GW walks on as well as the complaints.

Alice


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I personally cant see the facination with this media type for gaming. You already have to take a big box of figures with you when gaming, so a thin A4 book is not a hardship.

As SGMAlice says this is early days, but dont expect to get free updates for new codexes. They are not the same book so why should GW give it away free. Think of it as a version change for software. They very rarely give these away free.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Why did they pay to have something they already had purchased? Or if they are angry at having finally an option to buy the book but it costs the same as a hard copy, meaning that they canmot scab it any cheaper.

On the other hand it could be a prelude to a price rise.

The real money spinner is the Storm of Magic cards. Formerly only in the white dwarfs, meaning that the Ogre vampire and beast monsters are only now available in there. So thats £0.50 for each mournfang, stonehorn and thundertusk zombie dragon l, terrorgheist and jabberslythe, for a year or two until storm of magic generic monster book volume 2 comes out with them in.

Those 50p sheets are completely unavailable, so that £3 considering the rules are essentially written already, the fluff is essentially written, and the upgrades are essentially written. There is essentially copy paste binding scrolls rules and allowance rules, copy paste from existing army book to then be released in a later edition, imcluding new monsters added into the game (demigryphs, from empire, possibly daemonic mounts from woc this autumn), as wella as a couple of new ones - meaninig that they only have to do minor work to get the book out, then charge 25, thats the money spinner.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

oh your points are good also, but that WAS the only customer reveiws that were there
(for australia)


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Looked through the Space Marine on my old iPad, and it was great in my opinion. Wont rush to upgrade all the codexes I already own onto the iPad format, but I will certainly be buying new codexes that I see myself using in games and stuff as they are released.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TechPr1est said:


> (though this is what zion was talking about in why gw hates the internet)


Though I'm sure GW doesn't like this as well, this isn't quite what I was thinking of when I made that post. There is no angry name calling or accusations of puppy murder here. Just some straightforward complaints that the price point is too high. Some even recommended a better price to set it at too. It's the flaming and "GW (or GW Employee X) needs to go die in a fire" posts that I think keeps them away, not the negative reviews of their pricing.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

after reading through the US comments, all 8 pages, about 75% were 1/2 stars siting the price as the major set back for a good product.

the remaining 25% were a mix of 3,4, and 5 stars which state that the product is amazing.

----

so the true question is? is it worth $45 (or whatever) to YOU?

because honestly i can pass on not needing it.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

The interactive content is pretty, but the reviews saying its too costly are right on the money. Glitzy interactive content won't make playing the game any better. Even though I have an iPad from my job I won't be buying this. I enjoy new technology, but I prefer it when my books can't run out of battery life.

Also consider that developing for iBook Author isn't that difficult. And after development (which in this case authoring is mostly done before hand) the profit model is very forgiving because there are no ongoing costs. The iBook store deal with authors is that if you sell a book through the iBook store Apple takes 30%, so GW makes a free and clear $30 on every iCodex they sell.

I wonder what the profit margin on the traditional paper books are if you consider the same development, production, and shipping costs?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I wonder how many of the people who have posted low reviews, on the basis of the price only, have actually bought the product. I suspect it's somewhere around zero.

If you have the codex it's probably not worth buying the electronic edition.

I don't actually understand the bitching. It's not like the content is exclusive to the format. It's not like you need to buy it. It's a novelty that will appeal to some but not others.

If GW woke up one day and said that they are only doing ipad codexes from now on, then people might have something to moan about.

The pricing is not here or there. They can't price a digital product below a paper product that they have as a physical commodity; it does not make good business sense. They have tried to induce digital purchase by adding novel features that you can't get with the physical item. None of those features are particularly exciting, but it doesn't make the product crap to someone that wants the codex, has an ipad and prefers the digital version for x, y and z.


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## Marius_Ruberu (Feb 15, 2012)

increaso said:


> I wonder how many of the people who have posted low reviews, on the basis of the price only, have actually bought the product. I suspect it's somewhere around zero.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could not agree more but...
I don't have an Apple product, I have the droid, so for me I would have to buy a 300-600 dollar toy although i already have a better one, just to buy a $45 dollar codex. So for me, $33 for a hard copy is a lot cheaper than $345-$645. I will not be buying any of these unless they kill hard copies all together.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I for one will not pay full price or anything more then 50% of the original cost of the book for an e-book. so if the codex is 40 at most I would pay 20, at a strech. I can see why you would want a digital copy for sure. If you like to have the hard copy for collection reasons and you dont want to photo copy it for real play. I for one use my books like tool and they look beat to hell for it. (I also have kids who love the art o so much...the oldest is 4 :biggrin

I have to agree with the price complaints here, you cannot say that production and shipping are at all an issue here. As for paying the staff writers and designers, sorry but get the cost under control. 

Its bad when my wife, who stays as far away from this hobby as she can is beginning to notice the price. We've been married since 2007 and she said today that when she looks online for birthday and fathers day gifts shes noticed the hike for sure. When people outside the hobby can notice I think that is telling of an issue.

That said, I will still pay full price for a BRB on the day it comes out rather then waiting a month for the rage sales on E-bay.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

GW don't want to lose sales on their hardcopies, as those are what the hobby thrives on. The digital copies are a novelty and to stop people complaining about GW being 'in the dark ages'. 

So they won't charge less for digital than for hardcopy, as they want you to buy the hardcopy.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Why should digital be less than hardcopy? You're paying for what is in the book not the paper.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

humakt said:


> As SGMAlice says this is early days, but dont expect to get free updates for new codexes. They are not the same book so why should GW give it away free. Think of it as a version change for software. They very rarely give these away free.


Have you been following computer software much for the last 10 years? Free software updates is standard across the board. ITunes, office, video editing software, video games, operatin systems: all recieve free bug fixes and software updates sometimes on a daily or weekly basis. Most of these softwares will require a repurchase of a vastly improved software every 2 or 3 years. But in the meantime, we recieve hundred and free updates.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Do the people complaining about the price realise its not just a digitised version of the normal codex?

There's a lot of additional content. More fluff, painting guides, faq updated rules with the storm talon included, image galleries, weapon stats at the touch of a finger and the ability to annotate. It's 324 pages, significantly larger than the hard copy. 

Would i personally buy it though? No, i don't have an ipad nor do i want one and wouldn't get it even if i did. It's it too expensive anyway? Perhaps, but that's a value call from each player.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why should digital be less than hardcopy? You're paying for what is in the book not the paper.


Because reasonable sellers build the aprox cost of production and shipping into the price of the product. 

Example per unit: Cost of materials - .50
Production Cost - 1.50
Labor/Design - 15.00
Shipping - 2.50
Promotion - 1.50
Total - 21.00

So now we have a 'numbers out of ass' estimate, I'm guessing here so dont shoot me, but I am just putting out numbers for the sake of the example.

So for the Ork codex which is selling for 33.00 USD (as are the above guesses), so that allows for 12 bucks profit, for a 36% margine on the GW site. Ok so when you take this out off ass calculation and then subtract production shipping and material cost you get a profit of 16.50 which is a margine of 50%, that is fantastic!

Now they do not sell a huge amout of the codex series when compared to a box of troops. You only need one codex, you need more then one box of troops. So I forgive them for the 36% margine, but I would like to see a small drop in price for digital content. In the case of the Ork codex, it would be nice to see it for say 30.00. GW still makes more on the digital content then on the print content and they get to say they lowered prices that we like to bitch about so much.

At the end of the day I wont be buying any other codex then what I play. If I need to read what my opponent has he better have a copy for me to look at. But I can see where people would have issue with the price of the digial content being what it is.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Rems said:


> Do the people complaining about the price realise its not just a digitised version of the normal codex?
> 
> There's a lot of additional content. More fluff, painting guides, faq updated rules with the storm talon included, image galleries, weapon stats at the touch of a finger and the ability to annotate. It's 324 pages, significantly larger than the hard copy.
> 
> Would i personally buy it though? No, i don't have an ipad nor do i want one and wouldn't get it even if i did. It's it too expensive anyway? Perhaps, but that's a value call from each player.


I did not know this, but I would still argue that when spread out across all units to be sold they could afford to drop the price a bit and still make out like bandits.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Obinhi said:


> I for one will not pay full price or anything more then 50% of the original cost of the book for an e-book. so if the codex is 40 at most I would pay 20, at a strech. I can see why you would want a digital copy for sure.
> 
> I have to agree with the price complaints here, you cannot say that production and shipping are at all an issue here. As for paying the staff writers and designers, sorry but get the cost under control.


this is my general thoughts as well, eBooks are supposed to be CHEAPER than the actual book. Period.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Why should digital be less than hardcopy? You're paying for what is in the book not the paper.


im also paying for shipping, handling, overstock, the materials, etc.




Rems said:


> Do the people complaining about the price realise its not just a digitised version of the normal codex?


Even with the extras that GW is throwing in, which kinda explains where all the "how to" articles on GW's site went, it is not worth the price tag.



Rems said:


> Would i personally buy it though? No, i don't have an ipad nor do i want one and wouldn't get it even if i did. It's it too expensive anyway? Perhaps, but that's a value call from each player.


i think that Rems just stated the general thought by the gamers on the product.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Rems said:


> Would i personally buy it though? No, i don't have an ipad nor do i want one and wouldn't get it even if i did. It's it too expensive anyway? Perhaps, but that's a value call from each player.





Fallen said:


> i think that Rems just stated the general thought by the gamers on the product.


I think that Rems just stated the general thought by the gamers not only on this product, but every single product v prices issue that has to do with the entire Wargaming hobby, be it GW, PP, whoever....it's pretty much one of the basic fundamentals period.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

I didn't have the current marine codex so I bought it. I think its definitely worth the value - I haven't played in over 10 years and the features like the glossary and quick links to weapon/rule info is INVALUABLE to someone like me. 

You can't expect them to drop the cost JUST because its digital. The cost of a Kindle book, the majority of the time, is equal to the cost of buying a softcover edition. iTunes released songs at $.99 years ago and the price has actually GONE UP for most tracks since then - $1.29. Look at games on Steam or Origin. You pay the same for a new release and download it digitally. No discount because you don't get the packaging. Even Army Builder software is the same as a CD version or a digital version. Is there anyone up in arms about that? No? Probably because its not made by GW!

Digital products were once cheaper because it was a new market and businesses need revenue in a new market venture in order to justify pursuing it. Now that the digital market is firmly entrenched in the world, they see that charging less for the digital version is going to cost them revenue, especially as technology becomes more prevalent in society and more people choose digital over physical. Expect digital anything to cost the same as physical. The age of getting a discount because you're not paying for packaging is over.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

HOBO said:


> I think that Rems just stated the general thought by the gamers not only on this product, but every single product v prices issue that has to do with the entire Wargaming hobby, be it GW, PP, whoever....it's pretty much one of the basic fundamentals period.


Heh, to be honest it applies to any product, especially luxury products (which wargaming is). You only buy something if you think it's worth it. 

The unavoidable fact is that hobbies are expensive. Golf, Wargaming, Video Games, Racing, Sailing, everything. It's a matter of whether what your willing to pay exceeds the enjoyment you get out of your hobby or not. 

You could look at a tactical squad and say "$60 for a bunch of plastic men, no way". Or you could take the view that between assembling, painting and gaming with those little men you'll get at least 60 hours of enjoyment out of them. Suddenly $1 for a hour of fun doesn't seem so bad.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Rems said:


> Heh, to be honest it applies to any product, especially luxury products (which wargaming is). You only buy something if you think it's worth it.


I was going to add exactly this at the end but decided not to, and keep it focussed on Wargaming, but I knew that someone was going to come along and say it...only appropriate that it was you:biggrin:


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Obinhi said:


> Because reasonable sellers build the aprox cost of production and shipping into the price of the product.


Reasonable sellers may build overheads into the sale price of their products as a whole.

-----

This argument always naturally descends into the pricing of GW as a whole.

The situation is quite simple:

1) The product is not required (in the context of playing the game).
2) The product is likely to sell in quite limited numbers given that most people who presently play Space Marines will already have it in paper form and not everyone has an ipad eitherway.
3) 99% of moaners (inc those giving bad reviews) have no intention of buying it, as they probably have the codex already (However, they would like the novelty of having a digital copy just to have it).

The point of the thread (if anyone remembers) is that the product is receiving bad reviews on the i-store. The fact of the matter is that most of these reviews are based on the price and the intention of the reviewer not to buy at the price set. These reviews are in no way based on the actual quality of the product as a whole and a comparison to the price.




Eleven said:


> Have you been following computer software much for the last 10 years? Free software updates is standard across the board. ITunes, office, video editing software, video games, operatin systems: all recieve free bug fixes and software updates sometimes on a daily or weekly basis. Most of these softwares will require a repurchase of a vastly improved software every 2 or 3 years. But in the meantime, we recieve hundred and free updates.


It appears that faq and errata changes will be included.

When a new codex comes out this is a new product. 

I have Diablo 2 and i'm disappointed that it didn't turn into Diablo 3 when that was released. I also wonder if the production cost difference (i.e. none) between DVD and blu-ray justify the price difference.

I think the important thing that can be divined from GW's digitise Codex: SM is that the codex may be sticking around for while yet.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Production costs and postage count for little in the final price of a product. Far and away the largest factor is the creative input and the support infrastructure, paying the guy who answers the phone and makes the coffee.

Ultimately price is set by value, how much the market is willing to pay, for GW that is quite high. If sales drop then prices drop.

+1 to the point that early digital products were priced to buy market share and make the new delivery method more acceptable.

As for comparing with updates to software, you are talking a very different kettle of fish. Bug updates are mandetory as I paid for a working piece of software so if there is a problem it must be fixed. Software is unique in that regatd in that you can sell something that doesn't work as it should and fix it later. Books are what they are.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> As for comparing with updates to software, you are talking a very different kettle of fish. Bug updates are mandetory as I paid for a working piece of software so if there is a problem it must be fixed. Software is unique in that regatd in that you can sell something that doesn't work as it should and fix it later. Books are what they are.


It has been an industry (IT/Software/Hardware) standard since god knows when to provide updates to products for no extra charge, just as much as Bug Fixes. But a minority of companies will do it if the product is expensive enough that the majority of owners of the Software will think nothing of it; Adobe PS springs immediately to mind here.

Yes, you paid for the Software, something doesn't work properly, developer puts out a fix and all is well again. If they feel like adding functionality to said Software, change the odd bit of code or just generally improve its stabiity and appeal to the wider market; That is on THEM to choose to do, they will not charge to add something to a product you have already paid out for.

Would you pay for every updated Virus Definition your Anti-Virus software developer releases? Each and Every update to your OS? New GPU Drivers? Updated Drivers for any piece of Hardware you own? New Templates for your Word Processing Software? Plugins for your Image Editing Software? Skins for your prefered Media Player? The list goes on.

Few people even think about things like that as it has always happened, they are a given, not a privilege. They simply expect them to happen.


Either way, GW shouldn't and i don't expect they will, even given their track record.

Alice


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

increaso said:


> I have Diablo 2 and i'm disappointed that it didn't turn into Diablo 3 when that was released. I also wonder if the production cost difference (i.e. none) between DVD and blu-ray justify the price difference.


I can't tell if you are serious or not. over 10 years of work went into diablo III. 

That's like saying you paid for the first edition rulebook for warhammer so you think you should get the 2nd-8th edition for free.

It's not exactly the same as GWS coming out with 1 or two new units and changing a few sentences to fix problems that they shouldn't have created in the first place.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Eleven said:


> I can't tell if you are serious or not. over 10 years of work went into diablo III.


I honestly wonder how many of those were spent doing something...


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Doelago said:


> I honestly wonder how many of those were spent doing something...


That is really funny.

Anyway, I am no economist, those of us who know me know I am also not a speller.

That being said, I would like to direct attention to Walmart. The reason walmart does so well is because of price. They undersell everyone else to the point where in the us other chains like Target dont bother to compete on price anymore. They now compete on quality. This is why both chains are able to do well.

Now I am going to say that in my opinion GW products are top quality. They do have alot of advantages over other producers. However At this point in its life GW does need to consider the fact that the price will turn off new customers who will go to the new systems like Warmachine. They also need to consider that price hikes will turn off returning customers like me.

I for one feel no shame in getting my boxes off of amazon who undercut both GW and my FLGS. I can right now do as short look on the googledevice and fnd existing codexs in PDF form alrady. I dont because thats over the line for me, but I can see how it is done. 

NOW I know damn well if GW offered codexs for a dollar people would still pirate them, thats not this issue here. The issue here is that the current priceing stratigy is causeing people who would normally buy the book to go look for it else where or buy it used if they have a moral issue with piracy. Might I remind you that it is in GWs intrest to make buying a new copy more attractive then a used one?

Anyway to answer the comment about how people who leave bad reviews did not buy and what have you. That is how the free market works. If I go into walmart and I see them selling a box of pasta for five bucks, I would talk about it. I dont care if the pasta in question was crafted by vergins on a mountian top in Italy, I dont care if the cardboard is derived from paper the president of the united states used to draw skick figures on, I care only about how much its cost me for what.

This dicision is not made in a vaccume. I have a wife and kids, I have a car that needs gas. I have food to buy and I like to do more then warhammer, like you know, drink rum. So its not even GW vs Pioneer Press. Its GW vs every other thing that I do in my life. As a potential customer I have the duty to point out silly assed priceing. 

One more example prior to me shutting the fuck up. Let us look at the movie industry which is also an entertainment industry. Its sells one viewing of a produced movie for aprox 12 dollars, depending on where you live. I wont get into it too much, but the way it works in america is that the prodction company gets the lion share of the profits for the first few weeks. I want to say when I worked in the local movie theater prior to my military days its was something like 90% on the first two weeks and then less 10% for each weak after. This is probably wrong now but it works for the sake of arguement. So how does the playhouse make money? They jack up the price of popcorn. I forgive them for this because they don't have a choice in the matter. They have to stay open some how and this is the only way. Now here is the crux of the argument. Madagascar 3 had a budget of 145 million dollars, Rock of Ages had a budget of 75 million dollars. I pay the same price for both at the box office. So for me the consumer the price is not a reason to bitch. The movie industry has effectively made price a non issue. I pay the same for dvds as well, reguardless of what it cost to make the movie.

This is why we bitch about production costs with GW. The pricing is clearly abartrary. Just look at a box of 10 Tac marines vs a box of 5 tac marines. If I pay 37.25 for ten, why am I paying 25 for 5? Should I not be paying closer to 18? What is the reason for the extra 7 dollars other then trying to get more oney out of less work.

This brings me back the the issue with expensive PDFs, you are at the end of the day trying to get more money from less work. Adding links to a PDF is simple, I do it all the time when I prepare new regulations for a commder to look over. He dont want to use the mouse wheel, so I need to make it simple for him:grin:

Sorry about the wall of text, but I really feel strongly about this issue.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

What this thread basically amounts to, is people wanting twice as much stuff as you get in the hardcopy, for less than you pay for the hardcopy. 

In what universe is that anything but unreasonable?


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> What this thread basically amounts to, is people wanting twice as much stuff as you get in the hardcopy, for less than you pay for the hardcopy.
> 
> In what universe is that anything but unreasonable?


I take exception to this. First of all most people understand that you need to pay for content, this much is clear. I feel that this boils down to if we pay 45 bucks for a digital copy. what will us luddites have to pay for the hard copy when they get around to printing it?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Eleven said:


> I can't tell if you are serious or not. over 10 years of work went into diablo III.
> 
> That's like saying you paid for the first edition rulebook for warhammer so you think you should get the 2nd-8th edition for free.
> 
> It's not exactly the same as GWS coming out with 1 or two new units and changing a few sentences to fix problems that they shouldn't have created in the first place.


My bad. I mis-read what you were saying. I thought you were suggesting that digital codexes should update through editions (e.g. when Codex: SM 6th edition comes out the digital version should change into it).

As I understand it the current digital codex has the current errata updates in it (with a couple missing by oversight).

@Obinhi - I think your pov on pricing is the same point made by Rems earlier in the thread. It's a personal decision to decide when price x is too high. GW tend to get the prices high, but not so high that they deter the majority.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

SGMAlice said:


> It has been an industry (IT/Software/Hardware) standard since god knows when to provide updates to products for no extra charge, just as much as Bug Fixes. But a minority of companies will do it if the product is expensive enough that the majority of owners of the Software will think nothing of it; Adobe PS springs immediately to mind here.
> 
> Yes, you paid for the Software, something doesn't work properly, developer puts out a fix and all is well again. If they feel like adding functionality to said Software, change the odd bit of code or just generally improve its stabiity and appeal to the wider market; That is on THEM to choose to do, they will not charge to add something to a product you have already paid out for.
> 
> ...


I think we are saying more or less the same thing, suggesting that digital printed products are a very different situation to software. Sure software does often come with updates that refine functionality or provide add ons or little extras but anything that consitutes a major addition to the software in a change of version require some form of fee

My grrat hope for the GW stuff is that faqs or changes to a codex can be had by way of paying for an update....... maybe?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Obinhi said:


> I take exception to this. First of all most people understand that you need to pay for content, this much is clear. I feel that this boils down to if we pay 45 bucks for a digital copy. what will us luddites have to pay for the hard copy when they get around to printing it?


The hardcopy will remain the same, as the articles are printed in different books that sell as hardcopies. The differing fluff will likely appear in the new boxed set, which is hardcopy. Those of us who buy hardcopy will be entirely unaffected by this, as printing 300page codeces isn't going to happen. They took articles out of hardcopies because they date very quickly, and can't be patched or updated like a digital one now can. 

What I take exception to, is the complaining that the new digital copy should be cheaper, despite being bigger by half again.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> The hardcopy will remain the same, as the articles are printed in different books that sell as hardcopies. The differing fluff will likely appear in the new boxed set, which is hardcopy. Those of us who buy hardcopy will be entirely unaffected by this, as printing 300page codeces isn't going to happen. They took articles out of hardcopies because they date very quickly, and can't be patched or updated like a digital one now can.
> 
> What I take exception to, is the complaining that the new digital copy should be cheaper, despite being bigger by half again.


How do you know? This sets a dangerous standard of repacking existing, and already paid for, content and reselling it to us as fresh. I make the same arguemnent for BL books. Example I will use is The Caiaphas Cain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM books. Single books cost cover 7.99usd. The omnibus with genuine new content (compaired to the contained books) cost 15.00, thus you save money buy buying a collection of content rather then buying each book new. So I can buy the book on thiere own for about 24.00 total, or I can wait for the omnibus and get them all with new content for 15.00. I know the book is old and when new it may have been a bit more, but the current price is good and I have nothing to bitch about. 

At this point I feel like you and I will not agree on this issue, but I want to make it clear that I agree that content should be paid for, but I feel that the content should be priced based on what it took to produce the content in the format that it is being consumed plus a reasonable profit for the producer.


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## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

Does an Ipad's battery life last the length of a game?


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

most likely not unless you charged it completely before the game (unless its an apoc game then your going to have to keep it charging)

hey you could even play your metal during the game


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Ninjurai said:


> Does an Ipad's battery life last the length of a game?


If you treat the battery well (i.e. charge it when its low and not all the time) then you could theoretically go all day using it without needing to charge. I've gone three days before charging it (from 6%) and used it a lot during that time. The battery in my ipad 2 is stupid good.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Ninjurai said:


> Does an Ipad's battery life last the length of a game?


Easily. I am able to read around three or four BL books on one full battery charge, so if you are not able to get a game through on that time, something is seriously wrong.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Obinhi said:


> How do you know? This sets a dangerous standard of repacking existing, and already paid for, content and reselling it to us as fresh. I make the same arguemnent for BL books. Example I will use is The Caiaphas Cain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM books. Single books cost cover 7.99usd. The omnibus with genuine new content (compaired to the contained books) cost 15.00, thus you save money buy buying a collection of content rather then buying each book new. So I can buy the book on thiere own for about 24.00 total, or I can wait for the omnibus and get them all with new content for 15.00. I know the book is old and when new it may have been a bit more, but the current price is good and I have nothing to bitch about.
> 
> At this point I feel like you and I will not agree on this issue, but I want to make it clear that I agree that content should be paid for, but I feel that the content should be priced based on what it took to produce the content in the format that it is being consumed plus a reasonable profit for the producer.


Bear in mind that Black Library, whilst a subsidary of GW, is totally seperate from the Studio. What they do is based on an entirely different industry (production and selling of novels) rather than the wargaming and accessories industry. Codeces cannot been seen as seperate from wargaming, and priced according to how the publishing system works.

As to how I know? I know the Studio staff, how the processes work and how the upper management do things. The last meeting I was in on the subject, they were putting forwards their 5 and 15 year plans. Things haven't changed much in the *last* 15 years. Small things, like no articles in hardcopy codeces, is an example of a small change with good reasons. At the current rate of Codex renewal compared to system updates, half the current codeces would have out of date battle reports in them, some by 2 editions. All of them would have out of date painting articles. The hardcopies are not changed often enough to make putting articles back in a viable option. In digital format, you can.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

humakt said:


> As SGMAlice says this is early days, but dont expect to get free updates for new codexes. They are not the same book so why should GW give it away free. Think of it as a version change for software. They very rarely give these away free.


That's not the issue. At all. GW cut out the printer middle man and are charging more for it. That is wrong and unethical from a business standpoint. But there will be chumps who buy it. You never run out of chumps, unfortunately.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> That's not the issue. At all. GW cut out the printer middle man and are charging more for it.


I guess the interactive functions, the updates and amendments cost them nothing.

Equally, I suspect i-store takes no cut at all.

Damn! I guess they are robbing everyone.



> That is wrong and unethical from a business standpoint.


Not really. It's not water or food they're selling. And it is a business.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> That's not the issue. At all. GW cut out the printer middle man and are charging more for it. That is wrong and unethical from a business standpoint. But there will be chumps who buy it. You never run out of chumps, unfortunately.


Coding, design, new content all costs money. Apple takes a LARGE cut. Combine this with the fact that every industry is jacking up prices on digital content and you will see why it costs what it does. Digital content no longer means automatic discount. Its becoming the "norm" for a lot of people - look at the music industry. I can't remember the last time I bought a CD at Best Buy but I've purchased dozens of albums on iTunes in the last several months. Why dick around with a jewel case and CD when I can get it straight to digital? I'm paying the same. I have a Kindle and a softcover book costs the same as the digital version. Digital content is a new, usually cheaper, means to get your product into the hands of your target audience. That means better margins and more money.

Look at it this way: I invent something and start manufacture in the US. I sell it for $10 and it costs me $4 to make. That's a decent margin. I get in touch with a manufacturer from Taiwan. He can make it for me, exact same product and quality, for $2. Does that mean I'm going to cut the cost to sell it? HELL no. I just made $2 more per item sold. 

How does this translate to GW? They found a new way to distribute the item. It may cost less than to print, bind and ship a codex but the design and execution prices are still there. Doesn't mean they are going to hand over a chunk of their profit margin because they found a way to do it cheaper. That's not unethical - its business. Is it greedy? Sure. But good businesses are greedy - it keeps them in business. As long as they balance that greed with demand (see the BOLS article on GW pricing standards: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/editorial-gw-double-edged-sword-of.html) I'll buy until it leaves my price range. And I won't piss and moan when I do it.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Personally the price point is whats known as a "f*ck off" price... Simply put, if you want it you will be paying more for it... the sad thing is you get a lot less for your money.

part of my work is setting up digital sales venues, and Apples is the most expensive! however (for the moment) it enjoys the largest market share of online store.

However, since all art (aka asset) is stored digitally it doesn't cost GW that much to engineer into a PDF - (all though there are infinitely better formats) - Apples App store sucks up over 30% of the sale price, and Adobe will have a small amount on top for license of the PDF Reader + cost for the monkey that collated / coded the index and that's it... compare that with a production run 50,000 books.... trust me the PDF in comparison is a piss in the ocean.

The truth here is it's money for VERY old rope that would do nothing more than rot away somewhere uninteresting - and its this that is aggravating new and old customers alike! 

The simple and sad fact is, they (GW) *dont need to sell them digitally*, hence the price point. Although I dont understand the narrow thinking of using just one online venue - they could even offer it via their own .com and save them selves a fair whack in sales charges. 

Then again its not like GW need / want to sell it - just to be seen to.... and a High price usually garners a high demand - or atleast the appearance of it - in the mind of the collector and or the brand as a whole.

Imagine your friend jimmy saying "Man I got this new game system.... its bloody damn epic!!!"".... you look.... wow how much is that!... well Jimmy thinks its great.....at that price it must be!!... needless to say... Jimmy got the hardback cover....

Marketing.... can truly be the pit of humanity!


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Kelann08 said:


> Coding, design, new content all costs money. Apple takes a LARGE cut.


 - I doubt the coding, design, and new content (much of which is re-purposed from other books) cost as much as you think to develop and produce. I'm not knocking GW's graphic designers, I think they do good work, but I've used iBook author and I've tried the Codex:SM sample which I presume is representative (otherwise its a bad sample), and I've used GW paper codices and I don't think the development is all that difficult. 

- I also don't think Apple takes a large a cut. Now in my post a few pages ago, I asked what GW's profit on traditional codices might be. I think a lot of this discussion from a consumer point of view might rest on that. I'm not sure its entirely relevant though. Apple takes 30% of any book sold through the iBooks store. If you consider the printing, shipping, overstocking, etc. that a previous member mentioned, and which is obviated by a digital iBooks edition - a 70% profit margin is pretty spectacular. And 70% is way, way better than a traditional novel published by a traditional publisher would see. (I know that codices aren't under the same model but I'm using it as a comparison because I have no idea what the profit on codices is.)




Kelann08 said:


> Combine this with the fact that every industry is jacking up prices on digital content and you will see why it costs what it does. Digital content no longer means automatic discount. Its becoming the "norm" for a lot of people - look at the music industry. I can't remember the last time I bought a CD at Best Buy but I've purchased dozens of albums on iTunes in the last several months. Why dick around with a jewel case and CD when I can get it straight to digital? I'm paying the same. I have a Kindle and a softcover book costs the same as the digital version. Digital content is a new, usually cheaper, means to get your product into the hands of your target audience. That means better margins and more money.


 - As you point out a digital edition doesn't mean an automatic discount, but with digital books it is an almost universal given. Because you are buying a product without also receiving a corporeal counterpart, and the product is unusable without this very expensive delivery technology, and when your device is out of battery there is a discount. The value difference has little to do, as many of my fellow posters contend, to do with the production cost, but it has an awful lot to do with the highly conditional value of an entirely digital copy. That value is conditional on the cost of the platform, the convenience, and the value add over the traditional printed version. 
- Besides the mark up on mp3s by song can largely be attributed to the industry's evolving understanding of the model. Consumers frustration with CDs peaked with a lot of weak albums sold for a lot of money on the strength of 1 or 2 singles juxtaposed against the almost instant gratification of an illegal download. Now the music industry sells more songs and less albums and adjusted the price point to match. 

- So we have better margins, lower production and distribution costs, and convenience.


*In this case the value-add is comprised of 3 things:*

*Portability* - the ability to one day carry the entire codex library and potentially the BRB in one device. Though I'm sure this isn't as convenient as it sounds (try cross referencing 3 books at once on 1 screen)
 *Added content* - New content not contained in the traditional printed volume. As has been suggested by previous thread posters, much of the added content while pretty is rehashed from other books. And from my experience of the sample, the quality of the added content is all good. However none of the added content enhancing game play or gaming usefulness, its all hobby and fluff. Though I'll readily point out not all added content was available in the sample.
*Currency *- How current the codex and all related rules are. And despite how the previous two points seem to be the big sellers, this is in fact the King Kong of reasons to buy a digital codex. But this is a value-add as long as GW keeps this content up to date. The inclusion of errata, new rules, new paint colors, changing fluff, and updated army lists - *THIS *is why digital is in any way better. Functionally, a digital copy doesn't afford me a new way of reading the rules or really learning to paint. And it doesn't run out of batteries or rely on expensive/fragile technology.

The real value comes from GW's ability to offer updates and include the most recent content in point releases of the iBook. Granted, GW may require people to buy new codices when the editions change but people would need to do that regardless over time. Within a single game edition, the ability to simply update every digital copy with an additional free download is what makes this possibly worth the same MSRP as the printed copy. The printed copy can't be updated and even the print edition is harder to change and ship out. But a digital version can be corrected. And as rules are FAQ'd a digital version can be brought into agreement with the canon rules-set. And that rules set can be quickly made available to those who pay for it! 

If GW doesn't do this then they're foolish. If they do it then they are very likely justified in offering restricted use content for the same price as content that consumers fully control.

Ultimately, the potential of a digital update process creates a more balanced, fair, and competetive game.


And if anyone read this whole post, I salute you!


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> - I doubt the coding, design, and new content (much of which is re-purposed from other books) cost as much as you think to develop and produce. I'm not knocking GW's graphic designers, I think they do good work, but I've used iBook author and I've tried the Codex:SM sample which I presume is representative (otherwise its a bad sample), and I've used GW paper codices and I don't think the development is all that difficult.


I certainly don't think it costs millions, but in the end the cost is there. Many people complaining expect this codex to sell for less than half of its current price point which is just absurd to me. The stock pictures and stories and army entries all previously existed so there's no cost there. Considering how limited GW has explored the digital industry thus far, I'd say they either had to hire someone in house just to do this or, more likely, the contracted a third party to do it. This plus the ibooks cut is where the expense is. Its not astronomical, but the implication that they made this product for free (as others seem to think) is just as far off the mark in the other direction.



Kreuger said:


> - I also don't think Apple takes a large a cut. Now in my post a few pages ago, I asked what GW's profit on traditional codices might be. I think a lot of this discussion from a consumer point of view might rest on that. I'm not sure its entirely relevant though. Apple takes 30% of any book sold through the iBooks store. If you consider the printing, shipping, overstocking, etc. that a previous member mentioned, and which is obviated by a digital iBooks edition - a 70% profit margin is pretty spectacular. And 70% is way, way better than a traditional novel published by a traditional publisher would see. (I know that codices aren't under the same model but I'm using it as a comparison because I have no idea what the profit on codices is.)


30% is "large" in my mind. 




Kreuger said:


> The real value comes from GW's ability to offer updates and include the most recent content in point releases of the iBook. Granted, GW may require people to buy new codices when the editions change but people would need to do that regardless over time. Within a single game edition, the ability to simply update every digital copy with an additional free download is what makes this possibly worth the same MSRP as the printed copy. The printed copy can't be updated and even the print edition is harder to change and ship out. But a digital version can be corrected. And as rules are FAQ'd a digital version can be brought into agreement with the canon rules-set. And that rules set can be quickly made available to those who pay for it!


This is why I plan to purchase them. They are far easier to use than the traditional codex (tapping to jump to rules information or a glossary or jumping from army list entry to fluff material (which often has rules components you need info on) is a perk. The updated info is a significant perk in my mind. I fully expect to need to buy a 7th edition SM codex one day and I know the time from then until now is worth the expense.





Kreuger said:


> And if anyone read this whole post, I salute you!


Salute received and returned. :drinks:


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## wargasmic.experience (Nov 14, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> What this thread basically amounts to, is people wanting twice as much stuff as you get in the hardcopy, for less than you pay for the hardcopy.
> 
> In what universe is that anything but unreasonable?



Didn't want to do it, but now it's time to get involved. 

Wargamers did not petition a wishlist to get "more for less" from GW's digital codex.

However, it would be interesting to conduct a survey. I bet if we asked, there would probably be a high number of gamers that would love the option do away with the flashly extras and just have the 15 or so pages needed to play the game at a reasonable pricepoint.

In addition, it seems GW did a poor job in researching the expectations of their customers before going to market.

Having an ipad, the prospect of owning a digital copy was exciting. I bought it, and regret buying it at that price.

As someone who owns the product, the extras feel like an obvious "smoke and mirror" gimmick that GW is using to justify their absurd price gouge. With the exception of the usable index, most of the extras are readily available online for free. The ebook also takes up a HUGE amount of space for what it is.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

wargasmic.experience said:


> Having an ipad, the prospect of owning a digital copy was exciting. I bought it, and regret buying it at that price.
> 
> As someone who owns the product, the extras feel like an obvious "smoke and mirror" gimmick that GW is using to justify their absurd price gouge. With the exception of the usable index, most of the extras are readily available online for free. The ebook also takes up a HUGE amount of space for what it is.


You need to bear in mind that the price point is equal to the new price of codices. When you go and purchase your next codex, assuming its sometime in the next year or so, you're going to pay $41.25 + tax (or whatever your local currency may be). Alternatively you can buy it on your ipad for the same price but with, what I feel to be, easier navigation (a subjective opinion). 

This was not a product intended to replace the physical codex but be an alternative for the digitally inclined gamer.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

i didnt think that this thread would go on like this for so long


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Going back to the very first post, and the title of the thread, and many of the subsequent posts:

The product itself is not getting bad reviews. No-one is complaining about content. What they are complaining about is the price (as so often happens with *anything* GW releases). 

So my point stands. The product is not bad. The original complainants and people complaining here want to pay less money for twice as much content, in a more portable format. I have seen nothing said here to refute this point.

GW is not the financial giant everyone seems to think it is. Their profits are not enormous. They provide a luxury hobby item, not a necessity. I know how much work goes into these products from personal experience, and just how many people are involved. Because of this, I am fine with paying for products. And this is why I will defend those who make the products, if not the pricing structures.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

i dont like the pricing because i cant fucking afford it


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I am on less than £30 a month personal spending money. I plan purchases up to 3 - 4 months in advance. I don't go ranting to the world that GW are evil because I can't afford them, I just plan better to be able to afford it.

Luxury item = buy when you can afford it. If GW applied their pricing to basic grocery necessities or water, then I'd say they were evil. But they don't, so they aren't.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

TechPr1est said:


> i dont like the pricing because i cant fucking afford it


 
not once did i mention they are evil. i just hate having no job


i do heaps of work for my parents and yet i go to a gw about every 2-3 months and im lucky to bring 20 bucks with me 

$20= 12 pounds


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

it also annoys me to see people not take what they have for granted for instance i saw a 13 year old yelling and screaming at his mum because he couldnt get 2 battle forces and i saw a guy just pull out like 500 bucks (about 330 pound) and paid for his "weekly" add on to his army. and then the same guy smashed me in a game 2 weeks later because i couldnt afford 1000p of good ork stuff and he just laughed when i turned up with gretchin and wartrakks and all the other cheap ork stuff.


ill wont be getting a copy of the 6th edition rules till christmas when i can finally afford something


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

TechPr1est said:


> it also annoys me to see people not take what they have for granted for instance i saw a 13 year old yelling and screaming at his mum because he couldnt get 2 battle forces and i saw a guy just pull out like 500 bucks (about 330 pound) and paid for his "weekly" add on to his army. and then the same guy smashed me in a game 2 weeks later because i couldnt afford 1000p of good ork stuff and he just laughed when i turned up with gretchin and wartrakks and all the other cheap ork stuff.
> 
> 
> ill wont be getting a copy of the 6th edition rules till christmas when i can finally afford something


And this silver is why I feel like GW can afford to lower the price just a bit. I still dont see how in the world a few articles and such cause GW that much to produce.

And on the BL point, I will put a book in the same cat at a codex. For me they are both paper mediums for transmitting information. I understand that everything about GW is luxury item. No one is saying that little toy men are required for life. 

I have not and I will not go and give a bad review to this product becuase I dont intend to buy it. That would be wrong of me to do that. But I will defend to the death a persons right to complain, in your words 'Bitch' about the price of a product. The PS3 when it came out hit a brick wall over price. People gave a collective shrug over the blueray player and all of the other advantages it has over the 360. People could care less what it took to produce. Consumers expect reasonable prices based on what THEY THE CONSUMER think is reasonable. Consumers expect a producer to lower production costs, lower material costs, or at the very least explain what has caused the price to go up.

You have made the point about it being a luxury good and that is all well and fine, but any ass hat with the right tools can make toy soldiers, hell if I wanted to I could make bases, buy army men, stick them on and call them guardsmen. We pay for the rules and intelectual property and that is right and proper. But I will not accept this attitude of "Oh if you dont like the price fuck off then." I for one would like to have people to play against in twenty years, I hate, HATE this idea of eliteism which come with an expensive game system.:angry:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Yes, anyone with the right tools can make toy soldiers. I however don't have the time, nor equipment, and I like the GW ones. I want to play GW games, so I pay for them. I happen to know what goes on behind the scenes, and just how poorly some of the folk there are paid for the excessive hours they put in to keep their jobs, and so pay the prices. 

I don't expect anyone to believe what I'm saying. This is the internet, and everyone thinks they know more. With regards to GW and the Studio however, I can confidently say I am right. You say "a few articles can't cost that much", yet in the same breath are annoyed they're charging *the same as the paper copy that is half the size*. That's not charging more. It's charging the same. Hence my comments about wanting more for less money. 

This arguement is now going around in circles though, and the repetativeness is annoying. I have said my piece, and people can choose to believe / ignore it as they please.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Obinhi said:


> And this silver is why I feel like GW can afford to lower the price just a bit. I still dont see how in the world a few articles and such cause GW that much to produce.
> 
> And on the BL point, I will put a book in the same cat at a codex. For me they are both paper mediums for transmitting information. I understand that everything about GW is luxury item. No one is saying that little toy men are required for life.
> 
> ...


There is a trend we're seeing strike the "youth" of today (I don't know if I qualify for this anymore...scary). I've heard it called the "free culture". The ability to acquire pirated products is significantly easier than it used to be. I remember when getting a bootleg movie was buying it from a guy on the street. Now one can just hop over to Piratebay and download the newest releases. This is creating an entire culture of tech-savvy young people who start to value something on whether it can be had for free. "I'm not going to that movie in the theater, I'll wait until I can download it." "I'm not buying that codex, I'll wait until someone scans it and uploads a PDF." When its so easy to get things for free, it becomes your starting point for personal cost analysis. 

You used to weigh cost and access time. You could wait until it was in Half Price Books, in months or even years, and get it for $10 or pay the $33 to get it new. That was a spectrum of value. Now the spectrum is...

Half Price Books - $10 - one year after release.
FLGS - $41 - when its released.
Torrent Site X - free - a month after release.

The ease and lack of cost courtesy of pirated material is skewing people's valuation of something. 

DISCLAIMER: I know not everyone thinks this way, but more people are and you're going to see it influence those who don't just by reading popular opinion. Could it be cheaper? Sure. But 5% cheaper isn't going to help people who have zero income because they still can't buy it and it means those with income will be able to buy 5% more stuff. You would need to see massive price cuts to help out most people.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

@Kelann08

Lets not derail the thread with "all the cool kidz copyright infringe" argument.

There have always been those that seek something for nothing - even if that something was next to nothing in price. Lucky for me most people I know believe that if something is worth using / watching / listening to or reading then its worth paying for.

The simple crux of GW's online product is that its priced *NOT* to sell, simply because they DONT have to sell it online. Compared to publishing a physical copy - an online variant costs them next to nothing in comparison - in fact along the process of creating a physical copy a digital copy is automatically created and has been for years.

Most people know this fact, those tech savvy users all over the interwebs =), Sadly its this as to what aggravates them - one might argue you are paying for convenience - but what GW are asking for is beyond the word "greedy" - And that's just my humble opinion and one of the reasons I wont par-take of their service... not to mention there is *no resale value* to the product....

I buy the book, atleast I can sell it on if I want to... can't do that with the PDF... I'd hazzard guess being on Apples network its DRM'd to Truck (with a capital 'F')

Simply put GW want us to continue with the paper systems - as this is the one and only current business model, and at the moment while there might be portents for change... they simply don't have to... they have a captivating range of products and a user base to squeeze milk out of (figuratively)

truth is there will be the impasse where it costs more than its worth to the general user.... when that happens I do hope GW have a plan to rescue their business.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Kelann08 said:


> There is a trend we're seeing strike the "youth" of today (I don't know if I qualify for this anymore...scary). I've heard it called the "free culture". The ability to acquire pirated products is significantly easier than it used to be. I remember when getting a bootleg movie was buying it from a guy on the street. Now one can just hop over to Piratebay and download the newest releases. This is creating an entire culture of tech-savvy young people who start to value something on whether it can be had for free. "I'm not going to that movie in the theater, I'll wait until I can download it." "I'm not buying that codex, I'll wait until someone scans it and uploads a PDF." When its so easy to get things for free, it becomes your starting point for personal cost analysis.
> 
> You used to weigh cost and access time. You could wait until it was in Half Price Books, in months or even years, and get it for $10 or pay the $33 to get it new. That was a spectrum of value. Now the spectrum is...
> 
> ...


Ya...I've been in the work force and paying my own way for 11 years now, so not so much expecting free stuff anymore, but I hear what you are saying alot of people now seem to think that if it can be made digital then it should be free. I DONT THINK THIS IS CORRECT. I feel like digital stuff should be less expensive then the equivilent paper product. Period. A paper codex should cost like 3 buck more then the digital copy, because I would feel if they were the same price that I was paying for paper glue and shipping that I dont have.

My main issue is that when new players in my area look at the price of units they go "Oh wow, ok I suppose I could get one or two of them, how meny do I need for tourniment play?" And I reply "Oh maybe 7 or 8 boxes depending on the unit and the type of tourniments" And they say "Well... I could just buy an Xbox" and I have to say "Well I guess so... But this is so much more fun?"

Its a tought sell already because of the type of hobby with the people who want it ready now. Then you throw in what looks like a super high start up cost for new players? Sorry I can see why and will support a persons right to bitch. 

I know I've been round and round on this issue, but at the end of the day my points stand.

- You as a consumer have every right to bitch about the price of a product you would like to buy

-You should never steal contnent, but it is right and proper to expect bundled content that is not brand new to be a throw in or discounted.

- GW needs to at least play lip service to the fact that the majority of people who buy GW product are not single young professionals. Most of us are Parents (I am this) Or kids who have parents and rely on them for something. I belive that the vast majority of the fans know and understand that this is not exactly a gold mine for GW at the end of the day, but we do expect some sort of good reason for the price system. Like I've pointed out, the fact that 5 SMs are more then half the cost of 10 SMs. What the fuck? (25 vs 37.25 if you need to know.) 

I do tend to defend GW, but when a consumer base has complaints about price we should not be written off is bitching.


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Zetronus said:


> @Kelann08
> 
> Lets not derail the thread with "all the cool kidz copyright infringe" argument.
> 
> There have always been those that seek something for nothing - even if that something was next to nothing in price. Lucky for me most people I know believe that if something is worth using / watching / listening to or reading then its worth paying for.


My intent was not to derail, however the initial post was about people on the internet complaining about price point. Considering there's a strong tie in between the tech savvy and the "free culture", there's a good chance those aforementioned comments are from those very same people. I thought it tied in nicely. :so_happy:



Zetronus said:


> The simple crux of GW's online product is that its priced *NOT* to sell, simply because they DONT have to sell it online. Compared to publishing a physical copy - an online variant costs them next to nothing in comparison - in fact along the process of creating a physical copy a digital copy is automatically created and has been for years.


I hardly think it cost them "next to nothing". Considering its their first serious foray into technological releases (and the next closest attempt has been their horrible online videos) they didn't likely have a guy sitting around the office saying "I can do that for you". They likely hired a third party company to do it which certainly cost more than next to nothing. That also doesn't account for Apple's 30% cut.



Zetronus said:


> there is *no resale value* to the product....
> 
> I buy the book, atleast I can sell it on if I want to... can't do that with the PDF... I'd hazzard guess being on Apples network its DRM'd to Truck (with a capital 'F')


This is definitely a point I had not considered. I'm one to keep every book I buy. I still have my third edition codices from when I previously played. However I know there are a great deal of gamers who will sell off what they have when the next version comes out and they are hosed by this medium. Definitely a good point here. 



Zetronus said:


> Simply put GW want us to continue with the paper systems - as this is the one and only current business model, and at the moment while there might be portents for change... they simply don't have to... they have a captivating range of products and a user base to squeeze milk out of (figuratively)


I see this is more of dipping a toe in the water. If they can get enough sales for a codex that has been out for four years and some peripheral BS, they can justify putting the effort into releasing everything digitally.


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## Shas (May 6, 2012)

TechPr1est said:


> it also annoys me to see people not take what they have for granted for instance i saw a 13 year old yelling and screaming at his mum because he couldnt get 2 battle forces and i saw a guy just pull out like 500 bucks (about 330 pound) and paid for his "weekly" add on to his army. and then the same guy smashed me in a game 2 weeks later because i couldnt afford 1000p of good ork stuff and he just laughed when i turned up with gretchin and wartrakks and all the other cheap ork stuff.


These two examples are very different things and shouldn't be compared. One is a spoilt brat with entitlement issues, the other is someone (assuming they didn't rob a bank) who has disposable cash. 

Arguably if you can't afford to spend in the same manner it implies that in a very basic way you have a smaller army and thus perhaps shouldn't be taking on someone who can blow hundreds of pounds a week to advance his army. Of course you got smashed, numbers are numbers. The problem here is not your or his disposable income. I'm not going it put my 750 tau against 2500 Orks - that's common sense, not a judgement based on my salary.

Sorry if that was OT, but back on topic, as the owner of an ipad, I do feel the GW stuff is a bit expensive but I also understand their price point. Also, if I noted correctly, the electronic SM Codex is 350 or pages, but the paper one is 150 or so. That's a lot of content, but I have no idea if it's worth the extra $$$.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

I have an iPad but won't be getting one for a few reasons. For one, it's not iPhone compatible (which I always have with me and can keep in my pocket), and I don't fancy the idea of leaving a $500 device out on the table during tournaments. I also don't have to worry about my paper codex running out of battery life just before I need to look something up. 

This is a step in the right direction, but the SM codex is more of a novelty with it being a single codex limited to a single device. Let me put the BRB, my codex, and my opponent's codex on my smartphone, tablet, or laptop and we're getting somewhere. It may be a while before we see that however.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

ohiocat110 said:


> I have an iPad but won't be getting one for a few reasons. For one, it's not iPhone compatible (which I always have with me and can keep in my pocket), and I don't fancy the idea of leaving a $500 device out on the table during tournaments. I also don't have to worry about my paper codex running out of battery life just before I need to look something up.
> 
> This is a step in the right direction, but the SM codex is more of a novelty with it being a single codex limited to a single device. Let me put the BRB, my codex, and my opponent's codex on my smartphone, tablet, or laptop and we're getting somewhere. It may be a while before we see that however.


You know reading this makes me think some of the poor reviews may be motivated by the sort of, 'WHAT! BA aint in here, well FUCK YOU GW!" I can really see that kind of thing happening. I dont have a smart phone but I think codexs and BRB on a smart phone app would drive me to get one.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

ohiocat110 said:


> I have an iPad but won't be getting one for a few reasons. For one, it's not iPhone compatible (which I always have with me and can keep in my pocket), and I don't fancy the idea of leaving a $500 device out on the table during tournaments.


Yea, the not iPhone compatible part kind of annoys the shit out of me. I dont lug with me an iPad anywhere to be honest, it stays home. The iPhone on the other hand does not leave me for a fucking moment. I bring it with me everywhere, and even though it is more expensive than the iPad, I still feel eleven times more comfortable waving it in the face of some fucker who tries cheating some rules up his arse than doing the same with an iPad.


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