# Thinking about starting fantasy. What does a new player need to know?



## stewy37 (May 24, 2011)

Hi all. I've been playing 40k for about a year and a half now and love it. I love the fulff, I absolutely love the painting and modeling, and I enjoy the game itself. Recently, I've been thinking about getting in to fantasy as well, because there are some seriously cool models to work with. 

How different a game is fantasy from 40k? Obviously this may change soon with 6th edition on its way, but what is the general feel of the game? 

What are the important things to consider when building an army? For example, in40k you need to address anti armor, anti infantry, model count, mobility, close combat, shooting, etc. What does a fantasy army need to do? 

As far as armies I'm considering, what are the pros and cons of Warriors of Chaos, Vampire Counts, and Daemons of Chaos? They all have really cool models. I have a small 40k daemons army already but other than the princes, crushers, and bloodletters, I'm not super inspired by them and am not sure I want to invest more in to them. That is partly because I have found them frustrating to play in 40k. 

Things that I enjoy are tough, strong creatures or characters that can make a mess in close combat, but I also enjoy being able to blast foes to pieces and the magic element of fantasy is something I would like to mess with. 
To give an example of types of armies I like, I play thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, Imperial Guard with a Leman Russ foundation with infantry blobs, and the aforementioned Daemons based around daemon princes, greater daemons, and bloodcrushers. Thanksgiving your input.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

40k is very flexible, but that means that mistakes can be remedied and tactics are very limited. When I play 40k I normally have an overview idea of what I want the army to do, but am asking myself what each unit wants to do each turn... there is no continuity.

In WFB you can design tactics when making your armylist, follow through with them into your deployment and let them flow into how you play the game. Being able to do that successfully while staying flexible to adapt to changing situations is where the skill lies... but I also find it incredibly satisfying.
Many people would say that WFB is more of an adult game then 40k... this isn't quite true, since 40k isn't childish, but when you start to play you'll see what they mean.


As for what army you should take, I think WoC would be a natural place to start. It would give you exactly the army that you are describing: they have seriously hard combat units that can take a lot of punishment and are backed up by some of the most powerful magic in the game (with armoured sorcerers who are not as easy to kill as with other races). WoC is relatively simple to learn how to use and with such strong units and good armour is also fairly forgiving to the beginner.

As for the other armies-
VC- good against other infantry but can struggle to take down elites. Can often rely too heavily on magic for some tastes. I tend to find them a little dull, but some players love the meatgrinder aspect to them. Except for needing to control their magic they're a pretty easy army to start using and are very fogiving for beginners (you can't break from combat, so can't lose huge chunks of your army in an instant to a poor decision).
Daemons- sounds like you aren't a great fan of them, so possibly not the greatest place to start. Having said that WFB doesn't have the same deployment rules, so they are much more reliable. They give you good options and have plenty to keep you interested... but they'll always rely on some fairly fragile infantry units (although they are among the most powerful in the game).


While 40k has anti-tank, anti-infantry and scoring units as important things to consider WFB tends to more hammer and anvil tactics. Anvils are defensive units that are meant to draw opponents in and keep them there until you can flank and defeat them. Hammer units are either flankers that need to combine with other units (such as anvils) or units powerful enough just to wade through the enemy by itself. Additionally to that you've got war machines and true flankers: war machines (and ranged units) sit back and destroy the enemy from range... so you need to take them out before they deal significant damage. Meanwhile flankers aren't strong enough to worry the main units but have theior own skirmishes to harry the flanks of the main battleline (and control mobility) as well as trying to win through (or outmaneuver) so they can destroy any warmachines.

A good WFB army will include blocks of infantry designed to fight enemy infantry, flankers designed for controlling the opponent's movement as well as war machine hunters to take down enemy artillery, then you need to have some magic in your army (at minimum just for basic defense, but a standard mage will give you a decent offense- it takes a lot to get even a little more power in the magic phase).
EG- if you were to go with WoC then a fairly standard list would have a sorcerer lord (excellent magic offense), a block of warriors (excellent hammer unit), a large block of marauders with flails/great weapons (another hammer, but better in different cases), several units of warhounds (to block enemy movement and as flankers), a unit or 2 of marauder horsemen (war machine hunters/flankers) and a hellcannon (to mash up any enemy block too strong to defeat outright)... but of course there are many units in the army book to choose from, and they'll all add something different to the list.


----------



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

stewy37 said:


> Hi all. I've been playing 40k for about a year and a half now and love it. I love the fulff, I absolutely love the painting and modeling, and I enjoy the game itself. Recently, I've been thinking about getting in to fantasy as well, because there are some seriously cool models to work with.
> 
> Also, it's a far more enjoyable game. subjective, perhaps, but I stand by it!
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're a Warriors of Chaos man through and through. They are due a new book, but I wouldn't let that put you off. I cannot see any models you buy now being un-useable in the new book and like I said, eighth edition books are awesome.


----------



## stewy37 (May 24, 2011)

Warriors of Chaos it is. I have the codex coming, and in the meantime I'll keep reading and talking to people. Looks like the battalion box is actually a pretty good place to start unlike the starter boxes for most 40k armies. 

Good to hear that fantasy is quite a different game. I love 40k, but I wouldn't want fantasy to just be 40k with different models and setting.


----------



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

The WoC Battalion is a good deal - unfortunately, 3 Battalions is not so hot...

By which I mean, if it was £5 cheaper and had no Warhounds and Marauder Horsemen instead of Chaos Knights in it, buying three would be a no-brainer, but you'll never use 30 Warhounds or 15 Knights.

Shame as what you need is a big mess of Marauders, a couple of solid blocks of warriors, Chaos Knights are pretty cool, but you can't afford too many in a list.

I probably would order the Battalion, 1 extra box of Warriors, 2-3 extra boxes of Marauders, a Hellcanon and whichever characters you like (smart money says a Tzeenchian Sorcerer and Khornate Lord, perhaps with a Juggernaut).


----------



## stewy37 (May 24, 2011)

Sounds like a pretty solid plan. Hellcannon and Tzeentch sorcerer were already on the list because the models are awesome, and I was told they are good to go. I already have some bloodcrushers, so converting a lord to ride one isn't any big thing and would be motivation to get around to actually painting at least one. I love the models and they are base coated, but I haven't been super motivated to go ahead and finish them. One with a converted lord would be a fun project, and since I would be doing just one (maybe two) I could take my time and really do it right.


----------



## Nordic Echt Blut (May 19, 2012)

I was considering moving into warhammer myself and after reading this thread I'm very inspired!! Thanks


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

WHFB is a more complex game in some ways with more units and a lot more models. Issues of targetting shooting, moving multiple units, positioning, angles, choosing spells to cast and sequencing of spells and dispell attempts, allocating attacks to models between units in combat, and calculating the results of complex combat situations and resolving them can take some time to play out in WHFB. Also, every one of the 15 armies has a unique characteristic and focus. You don't have the situation where half the armies in WH40K are based off the space marines fluff (including chaos marines) where one can use models from one army playable as another. While chaos in WHFB was divided into warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos, and beastmen, those army books and armies play very differently and have very different rules and choice and troop types. 

WHFB tactics are much more linear but with flanking units and screening units, like old-fashioned Napoleonic tactics, except for flying units and monsters. You will find movement varies substantially from one unit to the next and there are a lot more special rules for each unit type, especially with a magic phase. WH40K is really much more of a skirmish game with a lot more emphasis on shooting and much smaller units in combat. It takes longer on average to play WHFB as compared with WH40K in my experience because you have a separate magic phase, more complex combat and special rules and potentially a lot more separate units in the typical game. That being said, 8th edition WHFB is a simpler game in terms of in game tactics and much more balanced than WHFB 7th edition. 

You will find that units in WHFB are more resilient and can take longer to kill off in 8th edition. For example, I had a game this weekend where we fought it out for a total of seven turns between our two primary units (He had an ironguts unit and I had a bloodletter unit in his front as well as a greater daemon from daemons of chaos caught his unit in the flank to pin it down before my bloodletters charged.). I killed off his BSB and one other character and ultimately all but one rank and file model but my general (a greater dameon with a special weapon the restored wounds as he inflicted unsaved wounds) survived and my rank and file unit survived to the end. I could not break his unit because his general (slaughtermaster) had a magic item that made the unit stubborn. 

If you like modeling and painting, there is more to do with WHFB because of the unit sizes, various characters, monsters, and leadership models. 

I would echo the comments above. The new 8th edition army books are generally much more balanced internally and overall in the context of 8th edition. In 7th edition, GW did a poor job of points costing certain special characters such that many are not competitive or playable and a few (Teclis in High Elves, Kairos in Daemons of Chaos) are broken and unfair. In order of strength, of the new 8th edition books, Ogres and Vampire Counts are the two best books, Orcs & Goblins next, Empire next and Tomb Kings last in terms of internal balance, but all of the armies are playable and have multiple viable army builds. The new 8th edition rules also ended up balancing the game more in the context of the older 7th edition army books as long as one excludes lord-level special characters from a few books (Daemons of Chaos and High Elves still have unfair special characters that should be banned or nerfed) or makes a few slight modifications to the army rules. Right now, if lord-level special characters in most of the 7th edition books are banned, then only Lizardmen seem to be consistently performing significantly better than average in competitive tournaments with maybe Dark Elves a distant second. 

A few comments on warriors of chaos (my first army when I started playing WHFB a few years ago). Right now, warriors of chaos (WoC) are vey competitive but lack certain desired options (no viable scouts and skirmish units; very limited shooting options) and the diversity of viable units compared with many other WHFB armies. They also have very expensive bu powerful characters, which limits the competitive army builds in 8th edition. I expect that to partially change based on the rumors so far regarding the new army book (rumored to be out in October but possibly as early as August this year). Some competitive WoC builds are really boring the play with and against, such as the use of chaos chosen ("death star") with two war shrines and a model with favour of the gods and similar double war shrine armies. Others are interesting and fun to play. You really end up primarily with marauders and warriors of chaos core; a choice between a monstrous infantry unit or two (trolls, ogres, or dragon ogres), chosen, and chaos knights as special units; and hellcannons and war shrines as rare units. Some marauder horsemen and warhounds might be considered as screening and diverters are added in. Sometimes, for fun, you might see a giant or shaggoth. But a warriors army tends to have fewer units and to have to make choices such as either run chosen or chaos knights as the primary special unit; and warriors as the primary core or a mix of warriors and marauder hordes as primary core units. The high cost per model in special and for warrior core units limits the number of models and units you can effectively run in 8th edition.


----------

