# Denied Flank (and other battlefield strategies)



## pathwinder14

Who uses denied flank? I do, and I love it. For those who do not know, denied flank is an often overlooked deployment and battle tactic. 

You start by deploying something heavy and powerful in the center of your deployment zone (predator, land raider, carnifex, etc.). Then you only place units on one half of your deployment zone. This tactic is based upon the idea that your opponent will deploy their forces evenly along their deployment zone. Since you load heavily on one side you will meet half of his army with 75% - 100% of yours. The other half of his army gets shot in the process of trying to get to you. By the time they do, you still have 50% of your force and they have been whittled down to 25% at best.

I also like to play extreme denied flank (only loading on 1/4 of your deployment zone). this is risky though as your models are pie plate bait. It works well for extremely fast forces like ravenwing, white scars, and sam hain.

What other strategies or tactics do you use?


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## Warboss Dakka

I use denied flank quite often, though I will place something on the far opposite flank, like my basilisk, instead of in the middle. I use the basilisk because my opponent tends to overcompensate for it, making even veteran players who know what denied flank is spread their forces out. 

I also use bait and hook tactics using cheap, expendable squads, much like the Tau Codex suggests (Patient Hunter I believe it's called).

Another tactic I employ is loading my slow units on one flank and my fast units on the other, then sweep my fast units to my slow side, creating a denied flank where none previously existed. I nearly always fight my battles with an attrition mindset, and will play units very cautiously until everything is in place to strike at once. Many players are overly agressive, especially meq players who think 3+ saves make them invulnerable.


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## NecronNidMarine

I learned something new today :!:


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## pathwinder14

NecronNidMarine said:


> I learned something new today :!:


What was that? Denied flank? The only reason I use it is because most people (in my experience anyway) line their armies up evenly across their deployment zone.


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## LongBeard

It's fairly simple to pull off, It generally works to the best effect with fully mech armies where you can deploy your WHOLE army on one flank and turbo to the opposite flank In a single turn to pick on Isolated units and any deployment errors your opponents may have made.


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## The Wraithlord

I use it all the time as well. Combine that with Infiltrating units and you can really mess up an opponents deployment plans


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## pathwinder14

The Wraithlord said:


> Combine that with Infiltrating units and you can really mess up an opponents deployment plans


Now that's ruinous.


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## Anphicar

I use it sometimes against slow armies, and short-ranged shooting armies.

I agree with uber + what he said in the other thread.


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## MarzM

I used denied flank a lot when i used my guard. 3 Demolishers up the middle, while my hellhounds voom round the flank combined with a mass infantry assault! 

Always fun 

MarzM :mrgreen:


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## titus

i use this tactic but hide it so hopefully the enemy will send their units down the wrong side,i often use rhinos but with nothing inside them,sometimes ill put a suicide chosen squad in one all tooled up with plasma,melta,and close combat weapons,i want the enemy to committ their troops about half way down the wrong side,i then move a unit in a rhino up to meet them,using the rhino to block line of site from the rest of my army,my rhinos are all tooled up,x tra armour,dozer blades,havoc launcher,ill drop my unit of in a good defencable spot,and if i can ram the enemy or use my rhino to block line of site.My tactic is to use the rhinos to brake up the battle field into parts so i can controll and attack the enemy piece by piece


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## TheKingElessar

I use a variation of the Refused Flank in almost every game I play...but, as i use Eldrad, I deploy 2-4 units on each flank, with others in the centre. His Divination ability allows me to then Refuse _either_ Flank, depending on opponent's deployment, and mission, etc. Lazy, perhaps, but devastatingly effective.


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## elkhantar

Well, devastatingly effective against some opponents, and very very ineffective vs others. It usually works, mind you, I'm not saying it doesn't, but you have to consider several things:

Does the opponent have many infiltrators/outflankers?
Can the opponent deep-strike (or daemonic infestation) a significative portion of his army?
Does he/she have indirect/barrage weapons?
How many pieplates does your opponent field?
What's the speed of the opponent troops (mechanized, jump, jetbike)?

Playing with my BA I love to see "denied flank" tactics, since my fast vehicles and troops can usually reposition better than my opponent's and I have my enemies bunched together so that I can usually flame and assault more than one unit at a time.

Similarly, with my nids I love to see troops close to one short edge for my outflanking genestealers and all bunched up for my barbed stranglers.

Other armies that cripple denied flank:

Destroyer heavy or flying circus necrons
Mechanized/fast attack/artillery IG
Eldar jetbikes/Mechanized eldar
Dark eldar raider heavy

So basically, what I'm saying is: use common sense before deploying. Vs non drop-podding marines without whirlwinds (about 30% of the armies out there?) it works great


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## Alexious

I use a variation of the denied flank but usually I have found now that scout and outflanking strategies are just as effective in completing the task.

Ask any guard opponent now after having faced off Marbo and they will tell you they would have probably prefered to have a bunch of tanks coming down the flank as they could have stopped it or at least moved to compensate.

That said, its a good tactic, but its time is done... it works well against new players but any experienced player should be ready for it and have counter deployment strategies already in the mix and also have a stratgey of deployment after looking at the board and the terrain.

Terrain is one of the most under stated and under written about topics that are discussed in 40k. We have all whined I am sure about cover rules, TLOS etc. But there are certain times when I glance at a board when people are deploying and I already know who has won based on their placement of terrain alone. (Not always, but sometimes). If I have an opponent who loves to use the denied flank tactic when setting up terrain I will place some rough or dangerous ground etc right along the sides hampering him/her or forcing them to attempt to deploy on the opposite flank and then have a nasty shock waiting for them.

I have also noticed that the denied flank works so well with IG as players suffer the death valley terrain syndrome of putting the terrainin starting zones leaving the centre a shooting alley or the sides drive up alleys. (You can bait a denied flank player at times using this strategem).


My signature strategy is the Flower Pattern flank or centre attack when using Mechanized forces. I play IG, so for me its chimera's. I run 6 of them which for those of you non guard types is less than 400 points total. (How expensive is a LR now?) and do two rows. The first of 3 is nothing but a screen, run hull to hull. This usually prevents most side on shots for the opening turn. they move forward and are usually empty, the second row contains the goodies of the guard who can all fire happily from AV12 bunkers on the move. (5 can fire, thats usually 3 melta or 3 plasma at least if you have put the right squads in the vehicles). Then its a matter of moving them forward and opening the front rank of the transports like the petals of a flower so the second rank completely unscathed comes through into the heart of the enemy and unleashes str 7 and str 8 multiple shots and follows up with heavy flamer death from AV 12 protection. With storm troopers deep striking, and marbo arriving at the other end to take care of anything thats too pesky or a pie plater.

Works fairly well, especially against small numbered foes, like SM and CSM and if executed properly will take the guts out of a tyranid attack too.

Thats one strategy I use, but its all situational depending on who I am facing, and if they will be to focused on their own plans instead of looking at what I am doing.

A lot of players I have noticed as well, have a plan and stick too it dogmatically and havent considered counter punch units or whats protecting this or that far too often. A lot of basks can be taken out or single vehciles that entire strategies rely on far too much to be effective. 

Their are numerous other tricks too...

1. Don't keep staring at what you think they might be going for or what your concerned about.... people pick up on it and look and then may see what you do. Things look very different from 180 degrees of vision.

2. Large nice models attract anti-tank fire to stupid and absurd lengths at times even when their own fire has been completely ineffective.

3. Study your opponents list and learn their armies. If your facing nids, read their codex and learn what they can and can't do... (As dirty harry said... A man has to know his limitations!).

4. If playing against a rules lawyer always check the fine print.... half the time they are wrong.

5. Focus on the game and not your opponents words as you play. Have some faith in yourself. I have stopped certain death of myself by raising an eyebrow during movement phases and smiling and then watching them get cold feet. Bluff is just as important as skill. Even the best of us make stupid errors.

6. Don't let your opponent pick up dice and roll them and say 6 hits, 3 wounds you make 3 saves... in less than 3 seconds. If your not sure, say hey can you show me that.... half the time they have not even calculated it right.

7. Never let your opponent set up the terrain solo.... I always get a third party or place one peice equally at a time. Or even better you do it... be fair with it, but a lot of players will try and do a terrain set up that will allow them an edge. So many big buildings leading from his deployment to yours? good work CC, or large barren areas with zero around it... good work shooting gallery. It has to be a mix to be fair.

8. Have fun.... if the game has degenerated for you that its about winning and not having fun, then its really time to walk away and evaluate whether becoming emotionally involved over plastic space men means that you may have other issues in your life or require some refocus. Been there done it.... I love it, I am happy when I win, but I am also happy when I lose as I then have a new challenge before me to overcome.

Can't think of anything else right at this second....


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## duckfromhelll

Try a army with all Infiltrate/Scout and keep everything in reserve. I love having 1 garanteed turn where all my army has a chance to make its points worth. When you deny your opponent of killing your stuff before it gets to shoot i find it gives you an advantage.


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## Culler

With my semi-mobile shooty tau I usually deploy my more static elements away from my enemy and then mobile elements close. The mobile elements fight a retreat while the static supports and then the mobile stuff swings around after objectives. With my Orks I usually mass large boyz mobs on the middle and towards one side and then use nob bikers and warbikers wide on the other flank to force my opponent into a little space that gets overwhelmed by Orks.


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## titus

when my girlfriend is angry at me she uses the denied flank strategy,it works


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## b.anthracis

If my wife is angry at me she uses the denied food strategy! It works very well...


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## elkhantar

If I'm angry at my wife I use the denied food strategy... but then she uses the refused flank and I have to concede


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## Sebi

anyone really use the "hammer and anvil" and can give sime insight (though there is a whole topic on this already but always happy for some experience and knowledge sharing) ?
anyone use tactics with almost everything in reserve and how do they work?

anyone use "blitz" units like deffkoptas with turbosaws, wraith or Destroyerlord with warscythe and how do you use them?

Friend uses two deffkoptas with turbosaws and scouts/moves attacks into the enemy line picking up a stationary vehicle or a week unit to mess up the battleplan as it and maybe destroy this unit... and it works.
though his "blitz"koptas are not cheap they really pay off imho as the mess up the whole plan and if used right destroy often a unit close to their points or important for the oppopnents army (like my sqad of lootas once... my whole backup firepower was destroyed)


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## TheKingElessar

Most players near me either spread out too much for a H&A, or are too savvy to it. I did do it successfully a couple times with Nob Bikers 6 months ago, and it's nearly been long enough that they'll have forgotten how painful that was...

One thing I like to do, unusually, with my Nob Bikes, is shoot, instead of T-B'ing. They have 3 S5 t-l shots each - more than enough to mince small units, and it lets the opponent think he can counter the unit by moving more towards them, when it just gives me a better multi-charge next turn. 

Different Reserve armies work differently, but, ideally you need the enemy to spread out, so when you come in you can hit them so hard in one area, just like with a RF, that they can't fight back with the remnants. A key component is the denial of Shooting phases to the opponent - which, again, means that your own shooting has to be devastating enough to make up for losing phases yourself.


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## Cleitus_the_Black

Wow this thread is really useful. I am completely new to any kind of real "tactics." Thank you pathwinder14, Alexious, TKE, and everyone else who has posted here. Hopefully this well help me crush the weakling imperials (and orks). Or at least put up a better fight, at any rate.


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## b.anthracis

I often use Rhinos to block my opponents LOS or movement, so that he unwillingly lets his units move where I want them to be. For that reason, every unit in my list, which can get a Rhino, gets one. 

Counter charge is a useful general tactic as well. Place a cheaper unit in front of your hard hitting CC units against a CC opponent. If he wants to prevent you from charging his units he must charge you first. But the only unit he can actually charge is the cheap unit. After he is in CC you can charge with your own CC units.


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## TheKingElessar

^ This works even better if the cheap unit is wiped out, as he cannot consolidate into another of your units, and you get a shooting phase against him before charging in to finish the job.


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## Someguy

I find this a very good way to defend objectives. I'll sit a combat squad on the objective, firing their heavy weapon at stuff, with the other combat squad behind in their rhino (probably some other stuff too, dreads are great here).

If nothing comes that way then the rhino squad can wander off and look for other objectives. If anything assaults the squad on the objective then the dread jumps them and the rhino squad retakes.

This works pretty well when you are about to receive a hammer blow from something like an ork mob. After the fight they are bunched up so you can do huge damage with heavy flamers and even bolters make a dent, where neither would achieve a lot the turn before.


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## b.anthracis

TheKingElessar said:


> ^ This works even better if the cheap unit is wiped out, as he cannot consolidate into another of your units, and you get a shooting phase against him before charging in to finish the job.


In 5th edition you can not consolidate into other units, so its perfectly safe to place the counter unit right behind the other unit.


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## Lash Machine

Also if they are still engaged to the existing meat shield, they can only strike your counter charging unit if they are not in base contact with said meat shield.


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## TheKingElessar

b.anthracis said:


> In 5th edition you can not consolidate into other units, so its perfectly safe to place the counter unit right behind the other unit.


Uh...that's what I said...Although 'right behind' is wrong, as he can potentially charge both then.



Lashmachine said:


> Also if they are still engaged to the existing meat shield, they can only strike your counter charging unit if they are not in base contact with said meat shield.


Well, not _quite_, as they can strike the shield if they're in b2b with neither...not that it matters ,as the shield are a sacrificial unit...


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## b.anthracis

Sorry Elessar, misunderstood it


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## zeroblackstar

Someguy said:


> I find this a very good way to defend objectives. I'll sit a combat squad on the objective, firing their heavy weapon at stuff, with the other combat squad behind in their rhino (probably some other stuff too, dreads are great here).
> 
> If nothing comes that way then the rhino squad can wander off and look for other objectives. If anything assaults the squad on the objective then the dread jumps them and the rhino squad retakes.
> 
> This works pretty well when you are about to receive a hammer blow from something like an ork mob. After the fight they are bunched up so you can do huge damage with heavy flamers and even bolters make a dent, where neither would achieve a lot the turn before.


I love doing this, very effective, take a combi-flamer on the sgt and make sure your flamer marine and the sgt are in the back unit and youll get 2 flamer templates against the bunched up ork mob as well as some bolt pistol shots, then you charge as well...they wont stand a chance


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## CaptainFatty

my favourite tactic is maintaining battlefield control by using vehicles as roadblocks. roll (or fly) up a loaded devilfish, park it and exit. two advantages when done correctly - i can shoot under the vehicle (so can they - i don't know if this is real but we do it anyway) and if they destroy it their troops will be funnelled into my firing line. unless it explodes then im screwed.
and you would be surprised what 2 drones (the ones in the fish) are able to do


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## cazmac

the game i played the other day i learnt that deployment was everything and due to my poor deployment i was being denied full effect of some of my units unfortunately due to the huge games we play you cant really go for a deployment tactic like flank (4,000 points of horde takes up alot of room) lol but in smaller games ill certainly use this tactic 

cheers for the thread


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## Zeromus316

For me, I have had to re-think my tactics seeming as i switched from csm to tyranids. I find that tyranids are very unique in that they have no armored units, only big beasties who excell at killing in cc. So a lot of tactics that you would normally apply to mechanized forces simply don't work as well for the bugs. For me I like the tons of nids in your face tactic. Perhaps a brief explanation describing this simple straight forward tactic.

Basically I start by ensuring that I set up area terrain in such a way that my units will be moving through the cover as they advance. I will try and get terrain as close as possible to other pieces preferably around the center of the board. This helps to ensure that as my troops advance, they will have plenty of cover to protect them from the volume of shots that will certainly come their way as they close in on the enemy.

When deploying my army, I will typically deploy everything with the exception of anything in spores or outflanking genestealers (which btw rock and if your one to hug table edges when playing against nids. watch your back!) With the nids I try to build lists that have a lot of threatening units and ill keep them cheap to have quantity. I will usually field plenty of gaunt swarms, tervigon, pair of trygons, zoanthropes, hive guard and whatever else. With all these units on the field at the get go, my opponent usually has to make a lot of critical decisions as to which thing should be shot. It is important that your army be placed right at the front lines, as close to your enemy as possible. The goal is to swarm and surround your opponent as fast as possible leaving him with no where to go and no other option but to try and shoot every thing you have in front of him. 

On every turn I move everything forward keeping nothing back and making sure that the force stays together as one big whole (never let your opponent split your force as the synergy of your army will quickly crumble). Relentlessly moving forward closing in faster and faster with the enemy taking advantage of the cover I have placed around the centre of the table. As the game progresses, my reserves are coming in ds-ing where I don't want enemy units to go, and my outflanking genestealers come and wipe out any unit that has decided to hug the table edges or fall back to the terrain pieces they have set up around the edge. 

The goal of this simple strategy is to fill my opponents deployment zone with plenty of nids and force your opponent to make mistakes and capitalize on them. I find a lot of times, I have opponents who will try and split their anti-tank fire at my trygons and tervigon when they should have concentrated their fire on a single target to try and ensure that the creature dies. Splitting fire may have weakened all the beasts by a wound or 2, but they're still alive and they can still reach combat and once they do, things won't look so good anymore.

using this very simple strategy, i can have my entire army effectively swarm and cover the majority of my opponents board by turn 2 and prevent paths of movement with strategically placed units whos job it is to counter attack such tactics (ie: hive guard, trygons). Then by turn 3, I will usually have 75% or more of my remaining force (which on average is about 60% what I started with) in combat where tyranids should be. By the end of turn 4, I usually see my opponents force dwindled down to about 40% or less. 

That's the strategy and it seems to work well for me. Very simple, very easy to control and frighteningly effective. Deals well against mechanized lists, stomps the crap out of small elite forces, and I have yet to play against another horde list but im sure it would be a brutal assault blood bath haha.


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## Shadowfire

Denied Flank, is almost obligatory when I've being playing a MEC Swordwind army

ie. souped up Falcons and WaveSerpents packed with Aspect Warriors to descend on one side of the enemy battle line, destroy utterly and either retreat/regroup or roll up the rest:victory:

this escalated to the non-deployment Strat that benefits from tweaked reserve rolls. (Autarch) This also has wonderful psychologoical effects on the opponent. Their having to set up or take a turn with no opponent on the battlefield :grin:

though be careful, this can backfire badly !!


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