# How Advanced could the Tau become?



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

As we all know the Tau (I have an army of Tau so don't moan!) are one of the most advanced races in the galaxy, second to Eldar but tau seem to have better tanks . so if they could survive the tyranids, orks, eldar, dark eldar, space marines, chaos daemons, chaos space marines, imperial guard and the rest of the tyranids how advanced would they become? Obviously these guys create new tech quite often, so I'm thinking along the lines of moblie plasma rifles with cooling systems, advanced armour that is strong and light, clever drones and popcorn machines.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

You would be better of putting this in the fluff section, as its more fluff based.

Anyway considering how fast theyve evolved and developed socially and technologically, they'd prob advance quite far, perhaps reach the standards of what the eldar once were, empire wise, but with how the 40k universe is going i dont know if they would last that far.


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## Arm1tage (Feb 10, 2011)

Fluff correction: First, everyone's second in tech to the Necrons :biggrin: Then come the Eldar/Dark Eldar (although you wouldn't believe it considering how frail they are), and then the Tau.

While I like the Tau quite a bit, they're an extremely small fraction in comparison to the other major players, thus any tech would be rendered meaningless due to their overall tiny population. Presumably, however they could substantially improve what they already have, given time.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

I would just like to point out that the orks have force field and teleportation tech, besides weren't the Tau still trying to figure out how to travel using the warp? 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_jump

:laugh:


Seriously though, they do seem to have come quite far, quite fast. They do live in a very hostile galaxy though, and their total population is quite small by comparison to the older races. I have a hard time thinking they'll achieve what the Necrons, Eldar, or Imperium have achieved anytime soon. 

That being said, I imagine we'll continue to see new tech in each new codex as has been the case for each race thus far. GW wants to make new models, because new models = new sales, therefore Tau will invent cool new stuff guaranteed! :good:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I would rank Orks before Tau, seeing as they can buid anything, and suprisingly it will work.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Tau will always be gimped by the fact that they don't have Psykers, and thus don't have Warp Travel or communications.

Eventually they might overcome this with hyperadvanced technology, but in the mean time they have to survive against races the can travel faster than they can, outnumber them hundreds (sometimes thousands) to one, and have wizards. The only race that ever managed to do this (that i'm aware of) was the Necrontyr, and they only pulled it off with knowledge given to them by the C'Tan, and it still ended poorly for them.

Also, i may be wrong here, but didn't the Dark Eldar just recently discover and take interest in the Tau (in their new codex)? If that is true, then the near future looks very grim for them indeed.


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## Trickstick (Mar 26, 2008)

The dark eldar are an even smaller and less important faction than the tau, they are scary but little more than raiders and pirates.

Also, the tau have warp capability but they can only make very small jumps. I know the Imperium can make small jumps using sensors to tell how the warp is moving. However, such sensors can only be used in normal space, so the distance you can move is low. I assume tau have something similar.

Give tau another 1000 years and they will be scarily advanced I reckon.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The tau have unbelievable potential. However no race has yet come close to rivalling the necron`s level of technology. 

Assuming the tau can survive all the galaxy has arrayed against them, they could easily reach the same level as the necrons in time. Remember, the necrontyr were also a young race struggling in the wake of a much larger faction once. :wink: 

Also, this belongs in fluff.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

yanlou said:


> You would be better of putting this in the fluff section, as its more fluff based.





Serpion5 said:


> Also, this belongs in fluff.


Yep, done.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Remember, the necrontyr were also a young race struggling in the wake of a much larger faction once. :wink:


But the Tau do not have some unholy star gods to aid them, and the Necrontyr lost their souls to achieve greateness, and were turned into nothing but slaves.

And the Tau would probably not survive long enough to achieve greatness from what it seems like. Splinter fleets of Tyranids are pushing deep into tau space. Dark Eldars are taking the population of entire Tau colonies with them to Commoragh. The Ork threat is ever present, and a Waaaaagh! would severly deplet the Tau armed forces. And an Imperial crusade could, if lead by a might person, conquer the Tau empire. I for one would not have any hopes for the survival of the Tau if a man like Lord Solar Macharius launched a crusade against them. 

Also, the Imperium could just declare exterminatus on every Tau planet in sight.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'd actually place the Imperium at the same level or more advanced than the Tau- the Imperium's advancements in biology (specifically Juvenat treatments and Astartes) have no counter part in Tau society.
Plus of course Warp Drives, Geller Fields etc

Yeah, I'd say that the Imperium is still slightly more advanced than the Tau Empire, maybe not one to one but certainly in overall technological prowess.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Doelago said:


> But the Tau do not have some unholy star gods to aid them, and the Necrontyr lost their souls to achieve greateness, and were turned into nothing but slaves.
> 
> And the Tau would probably not survive long enough to achieve greatness from what it seems like. Splinter fleets of Tyranids are pushing deep into tau space. Dark Eldars are taking the population of entire Tau colonies with them to Commoragh. The Ork threat is ever present, and a Waaaaagh! would severly deplet the Tau armed forces. And an Imperial crusade could, if lead by a might person, conquer the Tau empire. I for one would not have any hopes for the survival of the Tau if a man like Lord Solar Macharius launched a crusade against them.
> 
> Also, the Imperium could just declare exterminatus on every Tau planet in sight.


The Damocles Gulf crusade stalled. What makes you think another attempt would have a different outcome? Especially knowing how much more powerful the tau have become. To be frank, the tau are far more ambitious and open minded than the Imperium, and that attitude alone gives them an advantage. 



Baron Spikey said:


> I'd actually place the Imperium at the same level or more advanced than the Tau- the Imperium's advancements in biology (specifically Juvenat treatments and Astartes) have no counter part in Tau society.
> Plus of course Warp Drives, Geller Fields etc
> 
> Yeah, I'd say that the Imperium is still slightly more advanced than the Tau Empire, maybe not one to one but certainly in overall technological prowess.


Of course it is difficult to offer a direct comparison, but remember what the tau lack they make up for in other tech. Being able to equip their basic troopers with plasma based weaponry is a massive difference in itself, and remember that battlesuits are among the most versatile units on the battlefield. 

The Imperium has obvious advantages of course, but the tau are in it for the long haul. Going back to my earlier comparison to the necrontyr, the only difference i can place between the two is their outlook. The necrontyr were a morbid depressed lot who wanted to live longer. The tau place their efforts and energy on the civilisation as a whole. They have a positive outlook which makes any form of divine encouragement unnecessary. 

Many have said that the tau are an unimportant race, and for the time being they are. But if they can outlast the big players of the current era, then they have a slim chance.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Trickstick said:


> Also, the tau have warp capability but they can only make very small jumps.


This is not entirely true... 




Trickstick said:


> I know the Imperium can make small jumps using sensors to tell how the warp is moving. However, such sensors can only be used in normal space, so the distance you can move is low. I assume tau have something similar.


Check out the Lexicanum link I provided earlier. It explains how the Tau travel through the stars quite nicely.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Doelago said:


> I would rank Orks before Tau, seeing as they can buid anything, and suprisingly it will work.


I would have to strongly disagree the orks do not have safe plasma weapons, robots, A.I.s, hover tech, stealth tech, and durable light gear.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

If they manage to keep on trucking, the Tau are going to start getting pretty scary to neighbors not interested in the Greater Good. While I doubt they're going to be able to figure out a way to analyze and utilize Necron tech, it won't surprise me the day they can plop four railguns on a suit and still let it jump around all over the place.

So yeah, in terms of tech; Necrons > Tau > Imperium. Mostly because Tau guns don't blow their own guys up or get sucked into the tangible hell that is the Warp and don't have to rely on swarms of corpse cyborgs *Don't get me wrong, Servitors are pretty cool* .


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

The Tau's interstellar travel capabilities are equivalent of that of the Imperium's before the Gellar field was invented. That is, they had to sort of "skip" along the Immaterium to travel, like a stone skipping across water.

Necron tech > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Tau > Imperium/Chaos > Orks > Tyranids

Somewhere in fluff (can't remember if it was in a Codex or Canon) Eldrad says something about how the Tau might one day acheive things that excel even those of the Eldar, thus why the Eldar protect the Tau so vigorously. So that pretty much sums it up


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> Somewhere in fluff (can't remember if it was in a Codex or Canon) Eldrad says something about how the Tau might one day acheive things that excel even those of the Eldar, thus why the Eldar protect the Tau so vigorously. So that pretty much sums it up












And that is why I stick my tongue at those who say the Tau are unimportant and gonna get whipped out. I mean, ultimately GW is the horrid Demi-god controlling the fluff and if it doesn't involve a Ultramarine sticking a powersword up the collective ass of every other race, then I suspect the existing staff had been taken in the night by forces unknown.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The Damocles Gulf crusade stalled. What makes you think another attempt would have a different outcome? Especially knowing how much more powerful the tau have become. To be frank, the tau are far more ambitious and open minded than the Imperium, and that attitude alone gives them an advantage.


I would never rank the Damocles Gulf crusade as a proper "crusade". To me a dozen Capital ships, 19 regiments of Guardsmen and a few provisional companies of Astartes ain`t a proper crusade. The Tau would be annihilated by a proper crusade, such as the one led by Lord Solar Macharius. 



locustgate said:


> I would have to strongly disagree the orks do not have safe plasma weapons, robots, A.I.s, hover tech, stealth tech, and durable light gear.


I was not entirely serious, but they are Orks, they can build what the feck they ever want to build, and it will almost always work, for they are Orks, and orks make things work. :wink:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Tau will always be gimped by the fact that they don't have Psykers, and thus don't have Warp Travel or communications.
> 
> Eventually they might overcome this with hyperadvanced technology, but in the mean time they have to survive against races the can travel faster than they can, outnumber them hundreds (sometimes thousands) to one, and have wizards. The only race that ever managed to do this (that i'm aware of) was the Necrontyr, and they only pulled it off with knowledge given to them by the C'Tan, and it still ended poorly for them.
> 
> Also, i may be wrong here, but didn't the Dark Eldar just recently discover and take interest in the Tau (in their new codex)? If that is true, then the near future looks very grim for them indeed.


I would like to point out that the Necrons have Warp Travel that is as effective as many of the other races without psykers, so it is possible. Though the Tau have a long, long way to go. Also, I would like to add that the reason the Tau got a prominent event in the new DE Codex is actually because the previous Codex for them came out long before the Tau were created. So I wouldn't say that they have an interest in the Tau anymore than they do as humans. It's just that GW has finally updated them and building some fluff between them and the newest race in their universe.



Doelago said:


> I would rank Orks before Tau, seeing as they can buid anything, and suprisingly it will work.


It's not so much the tech of the Ork but the unusual psychic field of the Ork race. The truth is that most of their tech is loaded with faults and flaws that would render it as little more than an inert piece of junk were it not for their psychic field enabling it to work. Basically, they believe it works therefore it does. For example, there is a vehicle upgrade for the Orks called _Red Paint Job_. The Orks believe that a red vehicle is faster than an identical vehicle that is not red. There is no scientific or mechanical reason why the red one is faster, it's only the Orks' belief that the red one is faster and their psychic field that enables said vehicle to be faster.



Doelago said:


> But the Tau do not have some unholy star gods to aid them, and the Necrontyr lost their souls to achieve greateness, and were turned into nothing but slaves.
> 
> And the Tau would probably not survive long enough to achieve greatness from what it seems like. Splinter fleets of Tyranids are pushing deep into tau space. Dark Eldars are taking the population of entire Tau colonies with them to Commoragh. The Ork threat is ever present, and a Waaaaagh! would severly deplet the Tau armed forces. And an Imperial crusade could, if lead by a might person, conquer the Tau empire. I for one would not have any hopes for the survival of the Tau if a man like Lord Solar Macharius launched a crusade against them.
> 
> Also, the Imperium could just declare exterminatus on every Tau planet in sight.


First off, the incident in the DE Codex was simply the first time the two races encountered one another, that's all. It isn't marking the Tau as a special in the eyes of the DE. In fact, given the nature of the Tau soul in relation to the Warp, I would say that they would find the Tau as less appealing targets than other races such as man. Yes, they would take them as playthings but I don't believe that they would have much interest in them beyond the norm. Some may be interested in them for a bit given that they are a new plaything for them but after a while the newness of the Tau will wear off and they'll be just like any other race to the DE.

As to the Imperium and their Crusades, they've had problems fighting the Tau in past, both from their technology and their methodology of war. You see, the Tau do not view warfare like humans do. They see warfare as hunting prey. As such, they tend to shun large block armies and static defense in favor of smaller, mobile forces. In fact, a common Tau defensive tactic is to abandon what would be seem to us as favorable defensive location, such as a city, simply because defending it would immobilize the Tau warriors. Plus, the Tau are a significantly lesser threat compared to the other threats that the Imperium faces. All their attempts to wipe out the Tau have been met with some initial success before becoming stalled by the tactics and weapons of the Tau until a larger threat rears its head and the Imperium most redeploy elsewhere. Or as Tau haters like to call it, the Magic Fluff Armor of the Tau. Added to this, the Tau Empire sits on the edge of the Astronomican and if there are Tau worlds beyond its light, the Navigators and men of the IG won't dare go to them. As to the use of Exterminatus on Tau worlds, it would only be used on worlds that they know they cannot conquer without an insanely high cost in men or the world has become so utterly tainted by Chaos or xenos that they cannot be reclaimed by Man. That is not the case with the Tau. A true Crusade to wipe out the Tau *could* be won by the Imperium and they know that. Which is why they don't want to destroy the Tau worlds, they want to crush the Tau and build new human worlds upon their bones.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I would like to point out that the Necrons have Warp Travel that is as effective as many of the other races without psykers, so it is possible.


The Necrons don't have Warp Travel.

They have ships capable of travelling at at least light speed.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Necrons don't have Warp Travel.
> 
> They have ships capable of travelling at at least light speed.


My bad. I knew that. I meant to point out that they have similar means of galactic travel that does not rely on psykers and that perhaps one day the science of the Tau could achieve a similar feat. In the distant, distant future of course.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Trickstick said:


> The dark eldar are an even smaller and less important faction than the tau, they are scary but little more than raiders and pirates.


I strongly refute this. The Dark Eldar are the most populous sub-society of the post-Fall Eldar, and have had (and do) have a much more significant effect on the galaxy as a whole than the Tau do. The Tau are nothing on the galacitc scale, there are no doubt countless (and nameless) xenos empires and civilisations who outrank the Tau Empire in terms of galactic significance. The Tau Empire has survived thus far merely due to circumstance and more than a little luck. 



Serpion5 said:


> Assuming the tau can survive all the galaxy has arrayed against them, they could easily reach the same level as the necrons in time. Remember, the necrontyr were also a young race struggling in the wake of a much larger faction once. :wink:


It should be noted however that _Codex: Necrons_ seems to imply that the amazing peaks of technological innovation reached by the Necrontyr was primarily due to their servitude to the C'tan (although it is a given that they were still technological advanced pre-C'tan). 



Baron Spikey said:


> I'd actually place the Imperium at the same level or more advanced than the Tau- the Imperium's advancements in biology (specifically Juvenat treatments and Astartes) have no counter part in Tau society.
> Plus of course Warp Drives, Geller Fields etc
> 
> Yeah, I'd say that the Imperium is still slightly more advanced than the Tau Empire, maybe not one to one but certainly in overall technological prowess.


I agree.



Uber Ork said:


> It explains how the Tau travel through the stars quite nicely.


The only reason why _"skimming"_ the warp is suitable for the Tau Empire currently is because the Tau Empire is spread across a highly dense region of stars and systems. They have no need to utilise full warp travel (even if they could) because their Empire is so compact. 

If (and its a massive _"if"_) the Tau Empire ever manages to expand into the void beyond this dense region their Empire is currently based in, they would face massive difficulties. 



C'Tan Chimera said:


> So yeah, in terms of tech; Necrons > Tau > Imperium.


I'm of the notion it goes; Necrons > Eldar > Imperium > Tau > Greenskins. At least where the _"major"_ players are concerned anyway.



Cyleune said:


> thus why the Eldar protect the Tau so vigorously. So that pretty much sums it up


The Eldar don't protect the Tau vigorously, don't know where you got that from. Just because Eldrad had expressed a vague interest in the Tau Empire doesn't mean the entire Craftworld Eldar sub-society now thinks positively of the Tau, let alone actively defends them. 



Akatsuki13 said:


> I would like to point out that the Necrons have Warp Travel that is as effective as many of the other races without psykers, so it is possible.


And I would like to point out that that is not true.  The Necrontyr neither the Necrons have ever utilised warp travel (that we know of).

It seems that when they became the Necrons, the Necrontyr were equipped (by the C'tan) with ships that could cross the galaxy _"in the blink of an eye"_ - but never was warp travel mentioned.

EDIT: Ninja'd.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Tau are nothing on the galacitc scale, there are no doubt countless (and nameless) xenos empires and civilisations who outrank the Tau Empire in terms of galactic significance. The Tau Empire has survived thus far merely due to circumstance and more than a little luck.


That's not entirely true. For one, it's obvious they have to be of some importance to be made into an entire playable faction in the first place. Granted they're aren't as important as some Xenos races like the Eldar or Orks, of course- but if there were 'countless' and 'nameless' xeno civilizations of more significance then the Tau, why would GW focus on these guys? Where have they been mentioned?

Yes, there were other races like the Enslavers who go without a playable group but still had extreme importance in shaping the world of 40k, but still. I apologize for what must seem like setting you up for the Straw Man logic, but the way you word it would imply the Tau are on the same level of significance like Zoats or dare I say, Squats- having potential, but likely to be forgotten. 

The Tau are noted and made as a faction because they do bear importance in 40k. Yes, probably for marketability too, but think on it. Their codices haven't set a great deal in stone and this is understandable, but there are plenty of rumors surrounding the Tau and Necrons, Eldar, etc. Rumors are rumors, yes. But the implications themselves are enough that should GW ever move it's turgid ass and advance the plot, something quite important would occur.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> but if there were 'countless' and 'nameless' xeno civilizations of more significance then the Tau, why would GW focus on these guys


That is because countless Alien empires can rise and fall, without the Imperium even turning its eyes in their direction. It just happened that the Imperium happened to one morning start looking at a small start cluster that happened to be inhabited by blue skinned hippies.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> That's not entirely true. For one, it's obvious they have to be of some importance to be made into an entire playable faction in the first place.


The Tau came about because GW wanted to add another tabletop race. But they couldn't realistically factor in another truly _"major"_ player, because they would have had a tough time to justify it lore wise without disrupting the status quo of the Imperium.



C'Tan Chimera said:


> Granted they're aren't as important as some Xenos races like the Eldar or Orks, of course- but if there were 'countless' and 'nameless' xeno civilizations of more significance then the Tau, why would GW focus on these guys? Where have they been mentioned?


The galaxy is *massive*. The Imperium has barely explored a fraction of it. Considering the amount of xenos civilisations the Imperium has encountered (and exterminated) over the course of it's 10,000 year existence, it's more than plausable (almost assured) that there are still innumerable xenos civilisations out in the void. It's only logical to assume that some would be larger and more powerful than the Tau Empire.

Just because every xenos race or species doesn't have a tabletop army doesn't mean they don't exist in the lore.



C'Tan Chimera said:


> but the way you word it would imply the Tau are on the same level of significance like Zoats or dare I say, Squats- having potential, but likely to be forgotten.


I don't see them as having much more significance than the Squats or Zoats to be honest. Given the situation the Tau Empire finds itself in, they are more than likely going to be wiped out soon enough anyway.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

A Fantasy example of a powerful faction not being present on the table top whilst 'lesser' factions are is the Empire of Cathay.

It's the most powerful human civilisation in the Warhammer World and yet minor factions like Bretonnia and the Wood Elves have playable armies whilst the Cathayans remain rule-less.

Why should 40k be exempt from such a situation?


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Necrons don't have Warp Travel.
> 
> They have ships capable of travelling at at least light speed.


You have to remember that the necros are more advanced then that. They most likely have some sort of tech that allows them to move far faster then the speed of light.

Not only that they also have teleporters that can move them from one end of the galaxy to the other.

There are referances to phase space in the necron codex and some other white dwarf fluff when the necron BFG ships came out. Phase space is a Straight rip of Iain M Banks (Lets face it no sci fi is original). He describes phase space or 'infra space' as a 'skein' between two dimensions; in 40k presumably this would be between the warp and realspace, the dividing barrier of 'Phase' space between the two is limitlessly powerful a wall of infinite energy, tapping into this or indeed entering it would make for super fast propulsion. The Wraiths are said to 'Phase shift' so perhaps this is why necron ships remain 'visible' in realspace. I believe if people wikipedia the concept of 'Zero point energy' it would be the closests 'feasible' analogue to it in real life. 

Also.

The Inertialess drives mean that they can continuously accelerate without any reaction mass. Also, like Mass Effect, they can reduce the mass of their ships so that they can exceed the speed of light by taking the M out of E=MC2.

The net effect is that a Necron Ship keeps accelerating at some G, yet as they approach the speed of light their mass does not correspondingly increase, so the engine still can accelerate at the same g, where as a reaction mass based system would no longer be efficient enough at near light speeds to exceed the speed of light. 

Also, they aren't unique to them as the BFG rulebook lists Eldar Darkstar fighters as having inertialess drives. 

Source

But wow talk about mistakes in this thread.

The Tau, because they lack psykers as a race, are incapable of fully entering the warp. However, based on duplicating the warp drive from an unknown alien vessel they have found a way of 'diving' towards the warp, extending the field of their drive into a wing shape designed to hold their vessel in the warp, before being hurled into real space again like a ball held under water and then released. While this is much slower, by a factor of five when compared to Imperial jump speed, it is a lot safer because they do not enter the warp deep enough to become exposed to any of its dangers, and is also much more predictable as their speed works out to a consistent rate. Nevertheless, this limited form of warp travel has resulted in the Tau Empire being closely packed around their home system.

To Unite the Stars: Tau Vessels, p.96. Battlefleet Gothic Resources


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Snake40000 said:


> But wow talk about mistakes in this thread.


_*"No mistake(s), daemon."*_ - Captain Severus


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Snake40000 said:


> You have to remember that the necros are more advanced then that. They most likely have some sort of tech that allows them to move far faster then the speed of light.


I never said, or even insinuated the slightest amount, that Necrons didn't have the most advanced technology in the 40k galaxy.

I just pointed out, correctly, that they don't use Warp Travel and instead use ships capable of moving extremely fast.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just because every xenos race or species doesn't have a tabletop army doesn't mean they don't exist in the lore.


You do have good points there and I admitted from the get-go that the Tau probably were a marketing campaign rather than a monumental change, but I doubt GW intends to let them just float off into the anonymity others have had as they have already tied them in a little with races like the Eldar and Necrons.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much in the way of a truthful conclusion that can be reached here. The Tau's significance in 40k can only be revealed by time at this point, and 40k doesn't have so much a 'plot' as just an endless sea of fluff. Hell, I guess that whole "underdog with potential" vibe is what makes them popular(ish).


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

locustgate said:


> I would have to strongly disagree the orks do not have safe plasma weapons, robots, A.I.s, hover tech, stealth tech, and durable light gear.


FALSE! 

They wear T-Shirts. Those are _*very*_ light and durable, machine washable. :grin: :laugh:




It is true they don't have those things, but in the same way the Tau do not have 

- Full warp travel capability
- Powerful Force Field technology
- Teleportation technology
- Warp weapons like the Shokk Attack Gun that can open a tunnel in the warp and pop crazed snotlings inside enemy armor and tanks or even more impressively is capable of simply removing a model from play (no invul save, no EW... just gone)
- Etc.

And while they don't have safe plasma tech they do have super advanced energy weapons such as the Mega Blasta and Zzap Gun. The Zzap Gun (of 3rd ed), while admittedly unpredictable, was capable of FAR more power than any railgun or Ion Cannon. You have to admit a possible total strength and AP of 22 verses a railgun's 16 is pretty impressive. Not saying it's a better weapon, as the 4th ed version isn't as powerful... just that the orks *are* indeed capable of sophisticated energy technology.

In addition, the orks were genetically designed by a race so technologically advanced they make the Tau look like preschoolers comparing IQ's with Stephen Hawking. Not to mention the Tau have yet to fully prove themselves in battle like the orks have. Sure they have battle honors against the older races, but nothing like the acclaim orks have won. 

The orks have had a world wide campaign centered around them, a special extra codex released because of them (codex Armageddon), and have been featured in 2 out of 4 boxed sets, etc. While this doesn't directly apply to technology, it was certainly ork teleporta technology developed by Orkimedes that made Armageddon a possibility. 

The Tau on the other hand...

Were victorious over the Imperial forces of the Damocles Crusade... or were they? First of all the Damocles Crusade had a fraction of the imperial troops involved in it verses the Armageddon campaign, and the real reason they Imperial army pulled off and sued for peace was the impending arrival of a Tyranid Hive fleet. They could no longer afford to stay engaged with the Tau and so Imperial Commanders eventually agreed to requests from the Water Caste (not the other way around) for peace talks.


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Damocles_Crusade
> 
> The negotiations were successful and the Imperial fleet withdrew from Tau space, primarily due to the impending approach of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Or, depending on the source, the crusade was stopped in 988.M41 due to the emergent threat of Hive Fleet Kraken.




Sure the Tau later defeated the Tyranids, but they didn't beat the nids when they were at full strength. What they beat was the remnants of a hive fleet that had already been blunted by the efforts of others. And in the same way the Tau Empire made advances into Imperial territory during the Eye of Terror campaign, but that was because the Imperium's attention was focused elsewhere on throwing back Abaddon's 13th black crusade. 


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau
> 
> The Tau are currently in the process of securing their Third Phase colonies, while fending off remnants of Hive Fleet Kraken and the occasional Ork raid. They have a rather uneasy relationship with the Imperium, which is far more concerned with more important conflicts, like Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade.





The Tau have impressive tech yes, but I have yet to see them do anything of significance with that tech. 

I think until they develop something that allows them to travel at the speeds other races can achieve through the warp + some tech that can help them survive close combat, they'll be hard pressed to make anything but modest gains while the Imperium is focused elsewhere.




.


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## warman45 (Feb 27, 2011)

i would actually count those military evaluations as good for the Tau, as it shows that their smart enough to attack their enemies when there preoccupied.

sure the Imperium might whine about having to deal with a crusade and the Tau but it won't get them their planets back. and the Tau method of warp travel is much safer and predictable then faster imperial travel, which will help them keep their empire together (no losing reinforcements to daemons before they can help.)

i seriously doubt the Tau will die off, as they are smarter than almost all the other races (smarter not necessarily more advanced as Necrons and Eldar beat them.) i can foresee the Tau developing better warp drives, better armor, and possibly becoming a safe heaven for Imperial worlds as the Imperium crumbles, thus giving them access to whatever STC data is on said worlds.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

warman45 said:


> i would actually count those military evaluations as good for the Tau, as it shows that their smart enough to attack their enemies when there preoccupied.


The Tau continue to exist purely because they pose no threat to any of the other races. None. Zero. Zilch. 



> and the Tau method of warp travel is much safer and predictable then faster imperial travel, which will help them keep their empire together (no losing reinforcements to daemons before they can help.)


It sure is safer but it makes them incapable of expanding much further than they currently have. The Imperium might lose some of it's re-enforcements on the way but the great thing about the Imperium is that they have crap-tons of men and supplies. The Tau are actually unable to re-enforce beyond their current sphere.



> i seriously doubt the Tau will die off, as they are smarter than almost all the other races (smarter not necessarily more advanced as Necrons and Eldar beat them.) i can foresee the Tau developing better warp drives, better armor, and possibly becoming a safe heaven for Imperial worlds as the Imperium crumbles, thus giving them access to whatever STC data is on said worlds.


I also doubt the Tau will die off as they are fairly popular and GW seems to have moved past abandoning races (or advancing the time-line). However should *any *of the other races make any serious attempt the Tau are goners. They show no greater intelligence than any of the other races, they are simply the only race that hasn't passed its peak yet. There isn't really any reason, beyond fanboism, to suggest that they will get substantially better in areas that they are currently weak in.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

warman45 said:


> i seriously doubt the Tau will die off


*AND*


MEQinc said:


> I also doubt the Tau will die off as they are fairly popular and GW seems to have moved past abandoning races


Couldn't agree more. The Tau are here to stay. GW's invested way too much in them for them to go the way of squats. 





warman45 said:


> i can foresee the Tau developing better warp drives, better armor, and possibly becoming a safe heaven for Imperial worlds as the Imperium crumbles, thus giving them access to whatever STC data is on said worlds.


If the Tau are so advanced... what do they need with STC's? :grin:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> If the Tau are so advanced... what do they need with STC's?


Well, an STC contain at least a fragment of knowledge from what was arguably the greatest age of humanity, the Dark Age of Technology, a time when mankind's technology and science was at it's greatest, beyond even that of the Imperium's. During this period, they engineered the first Navigators, created the Gellar Fields and Warp Drives the Imperium uses today, the mighty Men of Iron that later rebelled against man, the first Titan warmachines, among other countless wonders of science and technology. The truth is, much of the Imperium's tech was born in the DAoT or are inferior bastardizations of said technology. That is why STCs are so valuable to the Imperium. A single printout from a STC could contain what would be a technological marvel that could boost the power of the Imperium. So to the Tau, an STC would be just as much a boon.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If (and its a massive _"if"_) the Tau Empire ever manages to expand into the void beyond this dense region their Empire is currently based in, they would face massive difficulties.


What 'void'. There's oodles of systems to be had, and if you look south, Macragge.

Honestly, with the Tau being extremely diplomatically inclined, they have much success to be had. They are not as insignificant as they once were, and Tau codices are currently the only part of WH40K rules that continuously evolve. Both their fluff/ territory and technological arsenal has evolved from codex to codex. This is obviously how GW has decided to 'grow' them into 40K to make feasible their existence.

With the current allies being the Nicassar (navigators) - Demiurg (spacefaring shipbuilders w/ warp capability) - Kroot, Vespid, Galgs, Tarellian Dog Soldiers and other assorted unconfirmed allies... Their list will grow. What talents they lack they find a way to 'annex'. Whole systems of imperial colonies are trading with the Tau empire. Numerous regiments fight for them.

I don't know how far they can go - but I do know they aren't on a decline any time soon.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Necrons don't have Warp Travel.
> 
> They have ships capable of travelling at at least light speed.


FTL tech used by the necrons uses inertialess drive tech. Whilst other races can also dull the effects of inertia, as far as I am aware only the necrons can null it completely, resulting in their vessels being able to travel many times the speed of light with zero effect from relativity. 

Hence, spacecraft able to _cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye._

For this to make any sense, these craft would have to have the ability to travel a _hundred times faster than light_ at the very least.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> What 'void'. There's oodles of systems to be had, and if you look south, Macragge.
> 
> Honestly, with the Tau being extremely diplomatically inclined, they have much success to be had. They are not as insignificant as they once were, and Tau codices are currently the only part of WH40K rules that continuously evolve. Both their fluff/ territory and technological arsenal has evolved from codex to codex. This is obviously how GW has decided to 'grow' them into 40K to make feasible their existence.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: I agree with this. A minor player is still a player, and so long as the game continues they have a chance. 

Slim chance, but still a chance. :wink:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, as long as none of the real players starts to become agitated by their existence they are players. If the imperium wasn't so focused with actual threats than the Tau would be crushed. The really aren't there to play, they are kindof like the special Ed kid who you let on the team out of pity.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah, more or less. Then little by little he becomes a better player until you realize with horror that he has somehow outclassed you... :suicide:


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

i say chaos kills and farms Tau's technology then uses it against the Loyalists. the only way tau will ever become a powerful foe is if they arm their basic troop choice with AP3 weapons. then the game Fire Warrior would make a whole lot more sense.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> What 'void'. There's oodles of systems to be had, and if you look south, Macragge.


The point being that other such systems present in the _Eastern Fringe_/_Sagittarius arm_ are not as densely compact as the region the Tau Empire is established in currently. That was my point. The Tau *currently* lack the capabilities to colonise much further than their current boundaries. The lack of psykers is both a positive and a negative.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> I don't know how far they can go - but I do know they aren't on a decline any time soon.


They may have already peaked. I fail to see how they will survive the _Great Devourer_ for example.

They suffered enough at the hands of the one of the smallest Hive Fleets (Gorgon) and only triumphed due to Imperial intervention, and the Hive Fleet's lack of more complex (and larger) organisms (although it should also be noted that the primary reason for Naga's defeat was the Eldar fleets). It should also be noted that several Gorgon Hive Ships escaped Gorgon's destruction to bring it's experiences of the conflict with the Tau to the greater Hive Fleets, and considering Gorgon was able to adapt it's swarms to bear near-immunity to pulse and ion technology, the future doesn't look bright for the Tau Empire - and that's just from the Tyranids perspective.

Its by pure luck it has survived the Tyranid threat thus far:

_"...had Naga entered the galaxy further south along the galactic plane, it would likely have erased the emergent Tau from existence."_

And what Hive Fleet the Tau did primarily encounter (and suffer dearly at the hands of) was characterised as merely _"minor"_ by the Imperials: 

_"Although Hive Fleet Gorgon wrought havoc across a sizeable swathe of the Tau Empire, the Imperium of Man considered it to have been a minor threat."_


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And what Hive Fleet the Tau did primarily encounter (and suffer dearly at the hands of) was characterised as merely _"minor"_ by the Imperials:
> 
> _"Although Hive Fleet Gorgon wrought havoc across a sizeable swathe of the Tau Empire, the Imperium of Man considered it to have been a minor threat."_


I do feel quite wretched for pointing out your argument's flaw here but it must be done.

The Imperials considered Gorgon a minor fleet precisely because they never saw more than it's splinter fleets and that the majority of the Hive Fleet entered Tau space rather than Imperial. Categorising the remnants of a defeated foe isn't the best way to determine it's original strength.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I do feel quite wretched for pointing out your argument's flaw here but it must be done.
> 
> The Imperials considered Gorgon a minor fleet precisely because they never saw more than it's splinter fleets and that the majority of the Hive Fleet entered Tau space rather than Imperial. Categorising the remnants of a defeated foe isn't the best way to determine it's original strength.


Meh. 

But my original point still stands.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Meh.
> 
> But my original point still stands.


Not be a jerk here, but I don't think it does :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Not be a jerk here, but I don't think it does :laugh:


Yes it does. What the Baron corrected was only a minor point in my argument.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I do feel quite wretched for pointing out your argument's flaw here but it must be done.
> 
> The Imperials considered Gorgon a minor fleet precisely because they never saw more than it's splinter fleets and that the majority of the Hive Fleet entered Tau space rather than Imperial. Categorising the remnants of a defeated foe isn't the best way to determine it's original strength.


Indeed, that is an entirely possible explanation. Especially when the only mentioned encounters between Gorgon and the Imperium was what the last system the Hive Fleet came to before it was destroyed. Of course, we also must consider that the Imperium has faced three Major Hive Fleets, so they would naturally consider Minor Hive Fleet a less significant threat. But there is some to note about Gorgon. It may have been a smaller Hive Fleet, but it possessed an unusually high number different bioform varieties and was the fastest of all the Hive Fleets to biologically adapt and evolve against the races it encountered. Sizewise, it would have been seen immediately as minor threat to the Imperium but when they engaged Gorgon, they would have found it to be a more difficult opponent than they initially believed.

I would just like to point out that while recent events have been difficult for the Tau with both the rather limp Third Sphere Expansion that at best has been halted temporarily and at worst, ended with some minor worlds and only two new septs, and the recent Hive Fleet invasion, they have endured it and will continue to endure, unless their popularity and sales plummet, leading to GW axing them.

In terms of fluff, the Tau have been doing what they always do, adapting and innovating. That's what they do. Every battle, every victory, every defeat has taught them. New strategies, new technology, new weapons, new allies, all of which the Tau have gained since they began their expansion from their homeworld. Though the Third Sphere Expansion has been halted, Commander Shadowsun is still leading brilliant attacks against the Imperial frontier, using the very strategies of the Imperium against them.

I don't deny that they could meet a bad end like other small empires but I'm more of an optimist when it comes to the Tau. The Imperium could crush the Tau if they truly chose to, but as the Damocles Gulf Crusade proved, it will not be easy or quick for the Imperium, especially considering the new technologies they've developed which will draw Imperial forces from other theaters of war that are facing greater threats than the Tau.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

The Tau seem to fail against the Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar.

I can't help but think that their repeated successes against the Imperium are just there to balance things out.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

increaso said:


> The Tau seem to fail against the Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar.
> 
> I can't help but think that their repeated successes against the Imperium are just there to balance things out.


I wouldn't be so quick to say that they failed against them. Keep in mind that these are only some of the battles they've fought. They've had difficulties against the Necrons and the Tyranids but then so has the Imperium. If I was asked what the greatest threat to the Imperium was, I'd have to say a threeway tie between Chaos, the Necrons and the Tyranids. So is it any wonder that they would have a hard time with two of the biggest, badest evils in the galaxy? But they did manage to repel both Gorgon and the splinters of Kraken, just as the Imperium have stopped numerous other Hive Fleets. As to the DE, I should point out that it was the first encounter between the DE and the Tau. And they woefully paid for their ignorance with the loss of the entire population of a world. You can't properly gauge the abilities of one race against another in a single battle. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Tau Codex made mention of a later battle between the two that ended with the Tau beating the DE.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Well, an STC contain at least a fragment of knowledge from what was arguably the greatest age of humanity, the Dark Age of Technology, a time when mankind's technology and science was at it's greatest, beyond even that of the Imperium's. During this period, they engineered the first Navigators, created the Gellar Fields and Warp Drives the Imperium uses today, the mighty Men of Iron that later rebelled against man, the first Titan warmachines, among other countless wonders of science and technology. The truth is, much of the Imperium's tech was born in the DAoT or are inferior bastardizations of said technology. That is why STCs are so valuable to the Imperium. A single printout from a STC could contain what would be a technological marvel that could boost the power of the Imperium. So to the Tau, an STC would be just as much a boon.


Yeah... I know what and STC is. :grin: I was making a point that if the Tau... 



warman45 said:


> are smarter than almost all the other races (smarter not necessarily more advanced as Necrons and Eldar beat them.) i can foresee the Tau developing better warp drives, better armor, and possibly becoming a safe heaven for Imperial worlds as the Imperium crumbles, thus giving them access to whatever STC data is on said worlds.


Then what do they need with STC's? :laugh: What would a race that's "smarter than almost all the other races" and who according to warman are "smarter but not as advanced as necrons and only truly beaten by the Eldar need with a Standard Template Construct if they found one.

The way warman was making it sound, it'd be like a modern aerospace firm "discovering" plans to a prop driven plane. :wink:






MetalHandkerchief said:


> and Tau codices are currently the only part of WH40K rules that continuously evolve.


That couldn't be farther from the truth. 

5th ed codices so far...
Blood Angels: got stormraven, sanguinary guard, etc. 
Tyranids: got venomthropes, Tervigons, Trygons/Mowlocs, etc.
Space Wolves: got thunderwolf cavalry
Imperial Guard: got manticores, and some new Russ designs
Space Marines: got the LR redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Sternguard, etc.

I won't count DE since the last rendition of their dex was so old and it was a complete redesign...






MetalHandkerchief said:


> I don't know how far they can go - but I do know they aren't on a decline any time soon.


Yeah, I don't really see that happening. As has already been stated, they're not going anywhere so long as they make GW money, which they totally do.

Ironically just as the imperium dominates the real world sales, they dominate the Tau in sheer size, scope, and power. The Tau are like a blood sucking tick on the armored flank of a Rhinoceros. Sucking a few worlds here and there, they ultimately are of no real threat in and of themselves. The Ordo Xenos, Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, and Officio Assassinorum Oxpeckers all have bigger ticks to fry and so the Tau will endure, growing fat (if you can call a tick fat compared to a Rhino) in their little section of space. :grin:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I would just like to point out that while recent events have been difficult for the Tau with both the rather limp Third Sphere Expansion that at best has been halted temporarily and at worst, ended with some minor worlds and only two new septs, and the recent Hive Fleet invasion, they have endured it and will continue to endure, unless their popularity and sales plummet, leading to GW axing them.


Recent events have been difficult for them because they are finally starting to meet the other players. Up until recently the Tau have been happily annexing backwater civilizations and believing themselves to be top-dog. That reality took a hit with the Imperium, but it was so unfocused that the Tau have had relatively little trouble from them and almost certainly fail to understand the scope of the Imperium. That reality is now suffering severly from the intrusion of other hostile, focused races. 

They're not going anywhere but that's an indication of GW policies, not the Tau's abilities. 



> In terms of fluff, the Tau have been doing what they always do, adapting and innovating. That's what they do. Every battle, every victory, every defeat has taught them. New strategies, new technology, new weapons, new allies, all of which the Tau have gained since they began their expansion from their homeworld. Though the Third Sphere Expansion has been halted, Commander Shadowsun is still leading brilliant attacks against the Imperial frontier, using the very strategies of the Imperium against them.


I always hear this argument and can never understand it. The Tau are more adaptive than dogmatic that's certainly true. In what way does that imply that they learn from everything? Or that the Imperium learns from nothing? 

The Imperium hasn't learned anything from the Tau because the Tau have nothing to teach them. The Tau are fasinated by Imperial Tech because it is so far in advance of their own. The Tau know this, the Imperium knows this, why is it so hard to accept?



> I don't deny that they could meet a bad end like other small empires but I'm more of an optimist when it comes to the Tau. The Imperium could crush the Tau if they truly chose to, but as the Damocles Gulf Crusade proved, it will not be easy or quick for the Imperium, especially considering the new technologies they've developed which will draw Imperial forces from other theaters of war that are facing greater threats than the Tau.


The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a small task force of Imperial Guard investigating a new region of space. The Imperium could destroy the Tau at will. Such an effort would weaken them slightly but the reason it hasn't been undertaken is not because the Tau would prove difficult but because the Imperium doesn't care. They don't feel the loss of those worlds because they have billions more. Ever major Tau victory is merely a statistic to the Imperium and not one that is noted with any interest.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Overall if the Imperium doesn't finish off the Tau, there are tons of other races that ultimately will, whether it be the iron-shod boots of da Orkz, or the gribbly bio-tendrils of the Tyranids. 

Of course GW won't kill off the Tau, but in terms of probability the only thing the Tau really has is ridiculously good luck.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Overall if the Imperium doesn't finish off the Tau, there are tons of other races that ultimately will, whether it be the iron-shod boots of da Orkz, or the gribbly bio-tendrils of the Tyranids.
> 
> Of course GW won't kill off the Tau, but in terms of probability the only thing the Tau really has is ridiculously good luck.


Well, in the end doesn't anyone need just a bit of good luck? I think that most people underestimate the Tau alot.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Grimskul25 said:


> the only thing the Tau really has is ridiculously good luck.


That's the core mechanic of tabletop 40k!


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

No matter how advanced the Tau become, all GW has to do is say "Hey look the Imperium discovered more from a recently unearthed STC!" Then BLAMMO! The Tau are back in 4th place again. GW aren't idiots. They know where the bulk of the player base is located and that's with the Space Marines/Imperium.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> No matter how advanced the Tau become, all GW has to do is say "Hey look the Imperium discovered more from a recently unearthed STC!" Then BLAMMO! The Tau are back in 4th place again. GW aren't idiots. They know where the bulk of the player base is located and that's with the Space Marines/Imperium.


wasn't that sorta obvious?


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> wasn't that sorta obvious?


Gotta second that right there.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Heaven help us Tau players if Matt Ward gets his hands on the next Tau Codex. He'll either turn them into feeble, easy to startle, bipedal bovines as they're depicted in common Imperial propaganda, or just as bad, uber-powerful aliens that can shoot off a commissar's hat from ten miles away with their pulse rifles and have battlesuits that can punch a SM Terminator to death.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Heaven help us Tau players if Matt Ward gets his hands on the next Tau Codex. He'll either turn them into feeble, easy to startle, bipedal bovines as they're depicted in common Imperial propaganda, or just as bad, uber-powerful aliens that can shoot off a commissar's hat from ten miles away with their pulse rifles and have battlesuits that can punch a SM Terminator to death.


I don't know if the latter is hilarious or horrifying. Knowing him he'll probably turn them into Orwellian dicks, effectively sucking the fluff appeal of "Galaxy's only good guys" right out of them.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I think that most people underestimate the Tau alot.


Are you talking in game terms, fluff, or both? 

On the *table top *I've seen some good tau players and I think mech/crisis focused lists are capable of good things, but what it seems like to me (most of the time I see them played) is that it's the players who bung them up good. 

In the end... it's their own shootyness that kills them. 

Why? Because their amazing model line and shootyness seem to attract a large number of young players who are just fascinated with running a static gun line army. I don't know why they can't figure this out (despite a win/loss ratio of 0-30), but 5th ed. absolutely killed static gun line armies. 

Running, outflanking, mech favored rules and dexes have made lining your troops up out in the open at the back of the board a very bad idea, yet like a moth to the flame these kids keep coming back for more...


In their *fluff *I don't think it's as much underestimating them as trying to be realistic about the size and scope of it all. Here, this is what I'm talking about...












Can you see the Tau "Empire" as compared to the Imperium? 


No? 


Here... let me zoom in so you can get a better look. 


There it is... right... there. ...See it now?

















:laugh:





I think *MEQinc* summed it up nicely _(although not as colorfully as my tick on a Rhino exampl_e :grin: _)_ when he spoke of the Damocles Gulf Crusade...


MEQinc said:


> The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a small task force of Imperial Guard investigating a new region of space. The Imperium could destroy the Tau at will. Such an effort would weaken them slightly but the reason it hasn't been undertaken is not because the Tau would prove difficult but because the Imperium doesn't care. They don't feel the loss of those worlds because they have billions more. Ever major Tau victory is merely a statistic to the Imperium and not one that is noted with any interest.


The only thing I would add to this is that there were space marines involved in the DGC, but not very many. Compare the forces involved in the Damocles Gulf -vs- the Imperial forces that fought in the 3rd war of Armageddon or against Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade and you'll see what we mean. Truly the Imperium has bigger fish to fry...




.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

As I said, only time will tell. If it would ever actually move in GW's world.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I always find it funny when people try and say whether or not something would happen in the 40k universe 'realistically.' Like, "If GW didn't want the Tau to stay around, then the other races would _realistically_ just destroy them! FLUFF ARMOR OMG!" 

We're talking about star gods and giant bugs that eat everything and a government/spiritual leader who devours the souls of his citizens. You really have to throw the Book of Real out the window and just understand that _the only thing_ we have to go off of is the fluff. The Tau have survived this long for exactly the reasons stated in the Codex and novels; because they're incredibly smart, incredibly adaptive, and damn lucky, to the point where you start wondering if it's really luck after all. 

The second you break that wall and start claiming that they're only around because GW wants to make a profit or because of their popularity is the second you subject _all_ of the fluff to that standard. You can say that about any army because it is, in fact, true. Yes. GW creates interesting armies with fascinating backstories so that people will buy their shit. That is the reason for _everything._ The Emperor, the Necrons, the Horus Heresy, the Tau empire not being wiped out, the Imperium still surviving...all this exists so that you will go and buy expensive pieces of plastic and the occasional video game. GW policies hold zero relevence to a discussion on the continued existence of a fictional empire of galactic communist smurfs.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> I always find it funny when people try and say whether or not something would happen in the 40k universe 'realistically.' Like, "If GW didn't want the Tau to stay around, then the other races would _realistically_ just destroy them! FLUFF ARMOR OMG!"
> 
> We're talking about star gods and giant bugs that eat everything and a government/spiritual leader who devours the souls of his citizens. You really have to throw the Book of Real out the window and just understand that _the only thing_ we have to go off of is the fluff. The Tau have survived this long for exactly the reasons stated in the Codex and novels; because they're incredibly smart, incredibly adaptive, and damn lucky, to the point where you start wondering if it's really luck after all.


Simply because things exist in 40k which are not real in our world doesn't mean that nothing in 40k occurs realistically, even if it's 40k real. The existence of the C'tan doesn't invalidate logical arguments about the sizes of various races. Logic can apply to things which aren't real. 

So having said that the primary reason the Tau continue to exist is a combination of luck and ignorance. If/when the Imperium becomes properly aware of (or actually begins to care about) the Tau 'Empire' they will logically (and thus 'realistically') be able to wipe them out with relative ease. It is illogical (and thus unrealistic) to suggest that the Tau could win out over the Imperium simply through smarts and adaptability (both of which the Imperium also possess).


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> As I said, only time will tell. If it would ever actually move in GW's world.


Oh, I think it's entirely possible that by the time their next codex comes out they'll add another "pixel" to their empire size. :grin:






SonOfStan said:


> The Tau have survived this long for exactly the reasons stated in the Codex and novels; because they're incredibly smart, incredibly adaptive, and @#!*% lucky


and, because the Imperium's attentions are directed primarily at other larger more ominous threats. 

The fluff bears both of these concepts out. There's all the parts that say things like...


> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440178a&aId=2500024
> ...the Tau are a young, dynamic race, with highly advanced weaponry and technology.


but we also have in the fluff elements like I quoted earlier...



> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Damocles_Crusade
> 
> The negotiations were successful and the Imperial fleet withdrew from Tau space, primarily due to the impending approach of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Or, depending on the source, the crusade was stopped in 988.M41 due to the emergent threat of Hive Fleet Kraken.


*AND*



> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau
> 
> The Tau are currently in the process of securing their Third Phase colonies, while fending off remnants of Hive Fleet Kraken and the occasional Ork raid. They have a rather uneasy relationship with the Imperium, which is far more concerned with more important conflicts, like Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade.



No one's not saying they aren't dynamic and technologically sophisticated, only that the size and scope of their "empire," military, and total population is virtually a speck, a pixel, a tick, on the galactic scene and when compared to the Imperium.







SonOfStan said:


> The second you break that wall and start claiming that they're only around because GW wants to make a profit or because of their popularity is the second you subject all of the fluff to that standard. You can say that about any army because it is, in fact, true. Yes. GW creates interesting armies with fascinating backstories so that people will buy their @#!*% . That is the reason for everything. The Emperor, the Necrons, the Horus Heresy, the Tau empire not being wiped out, the Imperium still surviving...all this exists so that you will go and buy expensive pieces of plastic and the occasional video game.


*AND*


SonOfStan said:


> GW policies hold zero relevence to a discussion on the continued existence of a fictional empire of galactic communist smurfs.


How can you say "it is, in fact, true" and that it "is the reason for everything" in one breath, and then say it holds "zero relevance" in another?

I guess I don't understand what you're saying. 

I think profitability and sales are perfectly relevant to a discussion where on one side you have a few people saying the Tau could take over the universe, and on the other where you have a few saying the Tau will be destroyed.

Neither of those are going to happen. Why? Precisely because it is a pretend universe. A universe in fact, that is controlled by GW. For the same reason they'll never let the Imperium fall, they'll not let the Tau be destroyed. These races make profitable sales for GW. How is that not relevant? It's the only thing that is relevant because GW controls the fluff. 

When they wanted to ditch the squats what did they do? They adjusted the fluff to have them be destroyed. As long as races are making GW money they'll never be written out. The Imperium's armies make GW money. The Tau make GW money. Therefore, neither one will be destroyed. It's not really any more complicated than that. 


Now... if you wanted to have a "what if GW didn't control the fluff and this were all real, what would happen conversation" then the Imperium could squash them at their pleasure but most likely wouldn't because of far greater threats that require their attention. This has been aptly demonstrated by the calling off of the DG crusade to meet the greater Tyranid threat and the Tau's 3rd phase expansion at the expense of a little world wide campaign called the Eye of Terror in which Imperial players were up to their eyeballs defending Cadia from all things Chaos (*see above quotes).





.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I mean, in theory the Tau could take over the universe if making horrible fanfics that defy suspension of disbelief. Really though, Uber Ork hit the nail on the head. The 'story' of GW remains nothing more then tasty, fluffy jelly intended to suspend their products in the air for all to behold them.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Uber Ork said:


> How can you say "it is, in fact, true" and that it "is the reason for everything" in one breath, and then say it holds "zero relevance" in another?
> 
> I guess I don't understand what you're saying.
> .


It holds zero relevance because it does nothing to really advance the discussion. Ok, sure, GW will direct the fluff however they want, but that doesn't change the fact that we all have to use that fluff to answer questions related to this fictional Universe. Just because you don't like a certain part of the storyline ('you' not being you in particular) doesn't mean you can dismiss it simply by saying, "Well, that's only like that because GW wants to make money, so it doesn't count."


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> Why? Because their amazing model line and shootyness seem to attract a large number of young players who are just fascinated with running a static gun line army. I don't know why they can't figure this out (despite a win/loss ratio of 0-30), but 5th ed. absolutely killed static gun line armies.
> 
> Running, outflanking, mech favored rules and dexes have made lining your troops up out in the open at the back of the board a very bad idea, yet like a moth to the flame these kids keep coming back for more...


I have to agree with this. I've fought numerous Tau Players and I'm pleased to say I've never lost to any of them. They seem to just want to sit there while I charge into them yelling. 
Tau players and Fanboys also seem to have this vastly overinflated notion of the Tau firepower. Arguing for a year and a day that nothing can be as shooty as their guns. The tantrums I've been subjected too because I like using Melta weapons for tank hunting have been particularly cringe worthy.

On a side note. I think it may be that "We don't need close combat because we have all the guns!" attitude that makes so many other people sneer at the Tau.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> I have to agree with this. I've fought numerous Tau Players and I'm pleased to say I've never lost to any of them. They seem to just want to sit there while I charge into them yelling.
> Tau players and Fanboys also seem to have this vastly overinflated notion of the Tau firepower. Arguing for a year and a day that nothing can be as shooty as their guns. The tantrums I've been subjected too because I like using Melta weapons for tank hunting have been particularly cringe worthy.
> 
> On a side note. I think it may be that "We don't need close combat because we have all the guns!" attitude that makes so many other people sneer at the Tau.


See, this makes me die a little on the inside. Not so much because of what you're saying, but because it's true. I'm regarded as the only Tau player around here (my game group, that is) that, you know, doesn't sit in a line and wait to get flattened.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Regarding Tau players playing Gunline, it is mostly true, but not all that fluffy. The Tau are supposed to strike fast, and fall back. Not just stand there and wait to get their asses kicked. Brings back memories about my Vanguard Veterans crashing into a squad of Fire Warriors and slaughetering them in a single turn of awesomeness.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Brings back memories about my Vanguard Veterans crashing into a squad of Fire Warriors and slaughetering them in a single turn of awesomeness.


Implying Tau getting skewered in close combat isn't a regular feature in any game with them? I think not.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

To be honest fluff wise I always imagined the Tau fighting a little bit like Space Marines (minus the close combat awesome sauce) staying highly mobile and hitting the enemy where it hurts.

Somebody really needs to introduce these Tau players to the Guard.
Oh and explain that the Tau are not the good guys. Anybody who's read Courage and Honour knows that.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Coder59 said:


> To be honest fluff wise I always imagined the Tau fighting a little bit like Space Marines (minus the close combat awesome sauce) staying highly mobile and hitting the enemy where it hurts.


That's how I always imagined it...Tau forces wheeling around a more ponderous enemy force, systematically destroying the most significant threats, working their way down until there isn't anything left.

Either that, or they send in Shas'la Kais, who proceeds to just destroy everything.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> To be honest fluff wise I always imagined the Tau fighting a little bit like Space Marines (minus the close combat awesome sauce) staying highly mobile and hitting the enemy where it hurts.
> 
> Somebody really needs to introduce these Tau players to the Guard.


Actually, I would compare the Tau more to the Eldar and Dark Eldar than the SM. But then I've never played as SM. Played against them and guys seem to play them a couple of different ways, one of which being a highly mobile force.

As to the IG comment, I've to have seen that in many new Tau players. I've also seen it in veterans of other armies, especially IG, Ork and 'Nid players when they play as Tau for the first time. Some just have a hard time switching from a way that they've been use to playing for a long time to something new. In fact, I've recently been helping a few new Tau players at my local GW store learn the ropes of fighting for the Greater Good.

I would discuss my tips on how to use the Tau, but this isn't the place for it.



> Oh and explain that the Tau are not the good guys. Anybody who's read Courage and Honour knows that.


Technically, the Tau Empire are among the 'good' guys of the 40k universe. Of course, good in the 40k universe is a very loose term. What is the hero of one race is another race's villain. I think it's more that the Tau are far more idealistic than the Imperium or the Eldar, advocating unity against the evils of the galaxy, that makes them seem like the only truly 'good' guys in the galaxy. But the truth is that the Tau have some _unpleasantness_ in their recent history, the best example being Commander Brightsword. He was a highly ruthless and aggressive student of Commander Farsight that invaded the Imperial world of Nimbosa and began a systematic extermination of the human population. This prompted the Imperium to send in the IG, which failed spectacularly to retake the planet. After that, an invasion from several SM Chapters was sent to take the planet back while behind the scenes the government of the Tau Empire helped Colonel Schaeffer's Last Chancers eliminate the wayward Brightsword, lest he draw too much Imperial aggression with his actions.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> It holds zero relevance because it does nothing to really advance the discussion.
> 
> Ok, sure, GW will direct the fluff however they want,


This is what I'm talking about. You say two contradictory statements so close to each other. :laugh:





SonOfStan said:


> Just because you don't like a certain part of the storyline ('you' not being you in particular) doesn't mean you can dismiss it simply by saying, "Well, that's only like that because GW wants to make money, so it doesn't count."


I'm still a bit confused as to what you're saying. The fluff is exactly what GW wants it to be. Their dynamic and technologically advanced nature, as well as the absolutely dust speck size of their "empire," overall population, and military when compared to that of the orks which "plague the galaxy from one end to the other," or the Imperium, etc.

I'm not sure anyone is discounting anything. Just saying that in the fluff as written the Tau and their allies occupy a tiny pixel of space on the galactic map. Hardly the makings of a galactic empire. They just simply don't have the manpower to get it done. I realize they could make up some of this shortfall in allies, but as the Germans found out in WWII total population and reliance on allies who aren't as proficient as you in war are rough obstacles to overcome. In the wars final years, the Soviets (despite taking enormous losses in the war) were replacing and exceeding former manpower levels. Not so in Germany. By wars end they were pressing the young and old into military service to try and get the job done, which of course... they didn't.







Akatsuki13 said:


> Technically, the Tau Empire are among the 'good' guys of the 40k universe.


Agreed. It seems like they're listed as the "good guys" in all the world wide campaigns that have occurred after the Tau were first released.



.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Technically, the Tau Empire are among the 'good' guys of the 40k universe. Of course, good in the 40k universe is a very loose term. What is the hero of one race is another race's villain.


There really are no good guys in 40k. From any one races perspective they can easily be seen to be good (or at least justified) but looking at a balanced selection of fluff clearly shows that there truely is no good. Evil is necessary in 40k and this is what makes it so interseting as a universe. 



> I think it's more that the Tau are far more idealistic than the Imperium or the Eldar, advocating unity against the evils of the galaxy, that makes them seem like the only truly 'good' guys in the galaxy.


Unity against the evils of the galaxy is *exactly* the ideal of the Imperium. They define evil slightly differently than the Tau and work towards acheiving that unity different, but in terms of ideals the Imperium is very similar.



> But the truth is that the Tau have some _unpleasantness_ in their recent history,


This is simply the Tau developing on the galactic stage. The unpleasantness is a result of their finally meeting races who pose serious threats to their 'empire' and reacting accordingly. I would strong suspect that this level of moral 'greyness' continues to increase in the Tau as they develop as a race. They must become ruthless or they will become prey (not that they won't/couldn't become prey anyway).


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

The problem is people seem to believe that we think the Tau are as good like some horrible, two-dimensional Mary Stew character that is incorruptible. Everything has it's unpleasant side and the Tau have it as well...Compare it to the likes of the Imperium however, and immediately it's like trying to compare the occasional police brutality case to blowing a planet up.

As for Fire and Honour... Imperial Fanboy propaganda, I say!


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> There really are no good guys in 40k. From any one races perspective they can easily be seen to be good (or at least justified) but looking at a balanced selection of fluff clearly shows that there truely is no good. Evil is necessary in 40k and this is what makes it so interseting as a universe.


Hence why I said, 'What is the hero of one race is another race's villain'. When it comes to the Forces of Order, good is only in the perspective they're viewed from.



> Unity against the evils of the galaxy is exactly the ideal of the Imperium. They define evil slightly differently than the Tau and work towards acheiving that unity different, but in terms of ideals the Imperium is very similar.


Yes and no, depending upon your perspective and personal opinion the Imperium and the Tau Empire. Personally, I view the Tau as advocates of true galactic unity, though lacking the ability to make it happen while the Imperium does advocate its own unity but it's only among humanity.



> This is simply the Tau developing on the galactic stage. The unpleasantness is a result of their finally meeting races who pose serious threats to their 'empire' and reacting accordingly. I would strong suspect that this level of moral 'greyness' continues to increase in the Tau as they develop as a race. They must become ruthless or they will become prey (not that they won't/couldn't become prey anyway).


Quite right. Farsight, the incident with Brightsword, Hive Fleet Gorgon, the disastrous first encounter with the Dark Eldar, are growing pains of the Tau. In fact, I would imagine that when humanity was at this stage as a galactic civilization though things probably weren't quite as dangerous as it is now. Humanity endured those early years and over thousands upon thousands of years grew into the galaxy-dominating Imperium we know today. That _could_ be the eventual future of the Tau, in a distant age when the Eldar have long since died out, humanity is once again broken, splintered and in decline, leaving the Tau to fill the void as the top dog of the galaxy. Of course, they could just as easily fall before they could reach such a point in time.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> MEQinc said:
> 
> 
> > There really are no good guys in 40k. From any one races perspective they can easily be seen to be good (or at least justified) but looking at a balanced selection of fluff clearly shows that there truely is no good. Evil is necessary in 40k and this is what makes it so interseting as a universe.
> ...


Hence why I put "good guys" in quotes.

It isn't one or the other as both sides are correct. *Coder59*, *MEQinc*, and *Akatsuki13* are right that the Tau aren't really good, and as the SM Librarian says in Dawn of War: "there is no innocence, only degrees of guilt." That in a very real sense there isn't anyone who is purely good, upright, generous, etc. and who has no agenda other than pure unselfish love in the 40K universe.

However, *Akatsuki13* (who has both sides of this point correct) is also right to say that the Tau are one of the good guys. 


40K is primarily written from a human perspective, which makes sense as all of us playing the game are indeed human... well, at least I think so. :wink: This ends up working itself out to have a similar result as the age old adage "history is written by the victors."

In fluff terms this means the Imperium (where GW is concerned) is the good guys. This also means, that any faction who is more likely than not, to share the same enemies is also listed as "good." 

The Tau, while an enemy themselves, share many common foes with the Imperium (Nids, Orks, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Necrons, etc.). Not only that, but they are more likely to share a common perspective with the Imperium where these enemies are concerned. This is exactly why the Imperium has been able to ally (all be it temporarily) with the Tau on several occasions.

Because of this GW has consistently listed them among the "good guys" in world wide campaigns. This is similar to the Imperium's relationship with the Eldar. Capricious as all get out, they sometimes fight with the Imperium and sometimes against it, but in the end they too fit the these qualifications and are listed among the forces of "good" or forces of "order" in world wide campaigns.

It should be noted that it is also possible to work along side other races such as the Necrons apparently, but that this is far less likely and that if given the opportunity the Imperium is way more likely to side with the Tau than one of the forces of "disorder/evil" races.

This isn't anything crazy or revolutionary. The old proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" has been in play (most likely) since the dawn of time. It has worked it's way out countless times in our world's history such as in WWII where allies comprised of diametrically opposed world, political, and economic views worked together to defeat a common enemy, and then who promptly went back to being enemies themselves upon the war's conclusion.






MEQinc said:


> This is simply the Tau developing on the galactic stage. The unpleasantness is a result of their finally meeting races who pose serious threats to their 'empire' and reacting accordingly. I would strong suspect that this level of moral 'greyness' continues to increase in the Tau as they develop as a race. They must become ruthless or they will become prey (not that they won't/couldn't become prey anyway).


This is definitely possible. Patterns are important however, and the pattern for them seems to be try and work out a diplomatic solution first. Failing that, I imagine as any cornered animal would, that they will do what's necessary.

I'm sure at this point they have a good idea of the scope and power of the Imperium. They have many positive relationships with human worlds near their space as well as many who have completely switched allegiance to now work and fight along side the Tau. Those defections would have included Imperial Governors, generals, and countless bureaucrats who would have been able to provide profitable intelligence on the Imperium's inner workings, military capabilities, and current situation. Who knows how much, how complete, or how accurate it all is, but I think it's safe to assume they know a fair amount.

As well... and perhaps more importantly, they'd be are aware of the scope of the Imperium's enemies.

Knowing this, they're just as likely (which seems the path they've taken so far) to nibble slowly at the Imperium's toes, and to expand their empire ever so slightly at a time so as not to arouse the full might of their powerful foe. I would again imagine this to be very similarly to a tick. Take what you want/need without drawing too much attention to yourself. They then seem to combine this tactic with that of creating an unpleasant defense (similarly to a porcupine). If and when the Imperium comes, work to make the retaking of Imperial worlds so costly in time, effort, and manpower that when compared to the bigger fish the Imperium needs to fry they primarily leave them alone with their few newly acquired worlds...




.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Uber Ork, you mentioned that the Tau have always been listed as the good guys in GW campaigns, but that is incorrect. They were listed as bad guys in the Rock of Ages campaign.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> This is definitely possible. Patterns are important however, and the pattern for them seems to be try and work out a diplomatic solution first. Failing that, I imagine as any cornered animal would, that they will do what's necessary.


But patterns can change and I would say the pattern of Tau relationships is changing. No longer do they approach outsiders with open trust (like they did initally to both the DE and Necrons). They are learning to shoot first and ask questions latter (a step up from the Imperiums shoot first, then shoot again and again). They are adapting to dealing with a submissive populace that is far larger than their own (and part of a empire FAR greater than their own). They are adapting (as the Tau fans like to brag about their ability to do) and this is leading them to become harsher, more aggressive and generally less 'nice'.



> I'm sure at this point they have a good idea of the scope and power of the Imperium. They have many positive relationships with human worlds near their space as well as many who have completely switched allegiance to now work and fight along side the Tau. Those defections would have included Imperial Governors, generals, and countless bureaucrats who would have been able to provide profitable intelligence on the Imperium's inner workings, military capabilities, and current situation. Who knows how much, how complete, or how accurate it all is, but I think it's safe to assume they know a fair amount.


I truely doubt the Tau have any idea of the scope of the Imperium, no real understanding at least. Sure they might hear things liek "a million times a million worlds" but those are just words and though they give an impressive overview they don't really give a true understanding of what that means. I would say that very few people in the Imperium (even high placed ones) or even players of 40k truely understand the magnitude of the Imperium. And for the Tau it's even harder. The Imperium has more worlds than there are Tau. One human can rule a single planet with a population higher than the entirety of the Tau empire. Nothing they have seen before can truely compare. The Tau think themselves a galactic empire but they are (as Uber-Ork I think it was pointed out) not even on the Imperiums maps. Regardless of their intel, I doubt they would be able to comprehend what this means.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> This is definitely possible. Patterns are important however, and the pattern for them seems to be try and work out a diplomatic solution first. Failing that, I imagine as any cornered animal would, that they will do what's necessary.
> 
> I'm sure at this point they have a good idea of the scope and power of the Imperium. They have many positive relationships with human worlds near their space as well as many who have completely switched allegiance to now work and fight along side the Tau. Those defections would have included Imperial Governors, generals, and countless bureaucrats who would have been able to provide profitable intelligence on the Imperium's inner workings, military capabilities, and current situation. Who knows how much, how complete, or how accurate it all is, but I think it's safe to assume they know a fair amount.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:Nicely summed up. And worth some rep. As I mentioned before, they secretly helped the Imperium assassinate Brightsword because they feared that his aggression and ruthlessness would provoke the Imperium too much. So it's safe to say that the Tau understand that the Imperium infinitely larger than they.

Also, I've been rereading the Tau Codex and other background fluff for them and I realized that I was a little hard on the Third Sphere Expansion. While only two full Septs Worlds were brought in, it expanded Tau Space by a third of what it previously was. Furthermore, many of the worlds Shadowsun brought into the Empire during the TSE serve another purpose beyond expanding their Empire, forming barriers between their important worlds and Imperial Space, making it harder for the Imperium to strike major blows against those worlds with the forces they've been sending against the Tau in past. Ultimately, it is the size of both empires that give the greatest advantage to the Tau. Because of the sheer size of the Imperium, they are beset by countless threats, some great, some small. Despite the size of their armies, the Imperium cannot be everywhere so they need to prioritize what they deal with and because of the size of the Tau Empire and it's location in the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy, it's hard to justify sending a proper crusade to deal with them while they have greater threats to fight. As a result, the Tau have been able to expand their territory significantly since the Damocles Gulf Crusade, especially considering they've managed to draw in many disenfranchised humans and their worlds into their Empire. Now, I doubt anything short of a true Crusade could eliminate their threat to the Imperium. Yes, Tau Space is densely packed but it has plenty of systems and worlds within it. The Tau have seventeen full Sept Worlds, the homeworlds of the Kroot and Vespid, the Farsight Enclaves, a number of former Imperial worlds and numerous other inhabited worlds and systems. That's a fair number of systems to deal with. And if they launched a proper Crusade against the Tau, they would win eventually after some years of fighting _if_ they stayed focused on the task.



Doelago said:


> Uber Ork, you mentioned that the Tau have always been listed as the good guys in GW campaigns, but that is incorrect. They were listed as bad guys in the Rock of Ages campaign.


That actually had to do with the nature of the world of Meridian, an Imperial world that formerly was an Eldar Maiden World, as well as the campaign itself. The 'bad' guys are the invaders while the 'good' guys are those that would be defending the world. It has nothing to do with those on the side of Order or Disorder.

In fact, back in the summer, eight of us at my local GW store came together and created a big campaign involving a war-torn Imperial world on the Eastern Fringe that became host to an Ork invasion, a Tyranid swarm, two separate Chaos warbands, my own Tau forces and three Imperial forces with their own agendas, the PDF Commander desperate to save his world, an ambitious IG Lord General that sought to bring order to the planet regardless to the cost of civilian lives and a Black Templar Marshal that believed the whole system needed to be purged by blade and bolter. Initially, the Imperials were loosely allied defenders in the beginning while the rest of us were the different invaders that each sought their own claim on the planet. Until one night at the shop when there was only the three Imperial players and the Ork player there, they decided that an internal schism had occurred among the Imperials and everything became crazy after that. In the end, I and the PDF player became allies and the defenders while the other Imperials had become among the invaders. Didn't win but was one hell of fun campaign.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Uber Ork, you mentioned that the Tau have always been listed as the good guys in GW campaigns, but that is incorrect. They were listed as bad guys in the Rock of Ages campaign.


I was thinking more of the world wide super campaigns like the "Eye of Terror" etc. where they were listed under the "Forces of Order" along with SM's, Guard, Eldar, etc.

I'd forgotten about the planetary empires advertisement... I mean, The Rock of Ages campaign :wink: found in White Dwarf + subsequent player PDF posted on GW's website.

If you look at it though, you see they even take a moment to explain why the tau are listed with the "bad" guys...



> *Rock of Ages PDF*
> 
> *TAKING SIDES*
> The players in the campaign are divided
> ...



In the end this is very much like the real world and WWII example I gave in my last post. 

Things change through the years and where any two nations/40K races end up in a particular moment is directly relevant to those nations/40K races objectives at that time. In this way it's very much about the Imperium's perspective (since GW centers the fluff primarily around them) and who agrees/disagrees with it at the time.

For example, if the Tau and Imperium want the same world, then they're enemies. If they're both on neighboring worlds facing a Tyranid invasion, then they're friends. The real world is replete with these kind of examples too...

-The U.S. and Britain were enemies during the U.S. Revolutionary war and the war of 1812, but were allies during WWI, WWII, and still to this day.

-The French and British were enemies in the hundred years war, the Napoleonic era, and at many points throughout their history, yet they fought side by side as allies to stop Germany twice.

-The U.S., Britain, and France were allies with the Soviets in WWII and then enemies for the next 40 some odd years as NATO squared off against the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War. 

-Etc.


So we see a clear history in both the real world and in the 40K universe where nations at one point might be enemies, and at another allies, depending on national/racial interests. 

In the real world, these interests change depending on national needs, convictions, objectives, or even changes in government such as with Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, and Axis allied Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria. These changes in government in turn changed those nations objectives, which in turn placed them at odds with the rest of the world.

In 40K, we don't really see changes in government, but we do see races who's objectives never or rarely (I add rarely because of the BA Necron/Marine fluff) match up with the Imperium, and we see races who sometimes match up.

-Never or rarely = Tyranids, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Necrons
-Sometimes = Tau and Eldar


Are the Tau and Eldar "good" from an Imperium point of view (since that's how the GW fluff is primarily written)? I would say it depends, but the very fact that it can even happen at all with an extremely xenophobic Imperium says a great deal about these two races in and of itself. 

I think of it like this, if you had to pick the top two from the following list that you feel could potentially be allies and therefore "mostly good" (again, an Imperium perspective here) which of the following two would you say has the best chance of siding with the Imperium the most?
-Orks
-Tyranids
-Dark Eldar
-Chaos Daemons
-Chaos Space Marines
-Necrons
-Tau
-Eldar


So maybe it would be more realistic to categorize the 40K races (as seen from the Imperium's point of view) by adding a "Mostly Good" category. If we did that, I think it would look like this and get rid of most of the arguments concerning if the Tau are good or not (again, from the Imperium's point of view :wink: )...

A.) Good (all Imperial forces)
B.) Mostly Good (Tau and Eldar)
C.) Bad (Nids, Crons, DE, CD, CSM, and Orks)






.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I truely doubt the Tau have any idea of the scope of the Imperium, no real understanding at least. Sure they might hear things liek "a million times a million worlds" but those are just words and though they give an impressive overview they don't really give a true understanding of what that means. I would say that very few people in the Imperium (even high placed ones) or even players of 40k truely understand the magnitude of the Imperium. And for the Tau it's even harder. The Imperium has more worlds than there are Tau. One human can rule a single planet with a population higher than the entirety of the Tau empire. Nothing they have seen before can truely compare. The Tau think themselves a galactic empire but they are (as Uber-Ork I think it was pointed out) not even on the Imperiums maps. Regardless of their intel, I doubt they would be able to comprehend what this means.


I both agree and disagree. 

Agree that they, nor we, truly have a grasp on the size and scope of the galaxy. However I disagree that they can't grasp the significance of how much larger and more powerful the Imperium is. We can grasp enough of this just by looking at a 40K galaxy map and we haven't even experienced maned space travel beyond our own moon. The Tau are way beyond this... I'm sure they understand enough to realize they are severely outclassed in size, population, and military power.

That would be all they need to understand to accomplish what I was talking about.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> We can grasp enough of this just by looking at a 40K galaxy map and we haven't even experienced maned space travel beyond our own moon.


Tau are relegated to a small section of the galaxy and have not been able to move beyond that point. So, unless they have a local game store where they too can pick up a copy of the latest the BRB, I don't think they would have a detailed map of the galaxy. They could acquire one from an imperial star ship, but we don't have any reason to think they have until further notice.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Tau are relegated to a small section of the galaxy and have not been able to move beyond that point. So, unless they have a local game store where they too can pick up a copy of the latest the BRB, I don't think they would have a detailed map of the galaxy. They could acquire one from an imperial star ship, but we don't have any reason to think they have until further notice.


Ah, but you're forgetting the number of Imperial worlds they've brought into the fold since the Damocles Crusade, along with abandoned IG regiments, captured or defecting Imperial warships and of course, Rogue Traders, who were among the very first humans they met and continue to trade with. Numerous ways to learn the size and scope of the Imperium. In fact, in the current Tau Codex, it states that they understand the size of the Imperium.



> ...It was some time before the Water Caste came to grasp the fact that the Humans they encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast galactic empire. So vast, in fact, that any overt aggression on the part of the Tau might lead to their fledgling empire's complete destruction.
> Codex: Tau Empire 4 Edition
> Page 11


So they know that they are the little guys on the galactic scene and are careful to avoid angering the Imperium too much.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> A.) Good (all Imperial forces)
> B.) Mostly Good (Tau and Eldar)
> C.) Bad (Nids, Crons, DE, CD, CSM, and Orks)
> 
> ...


Ummm...sorry, think you got things slightly mixed up in that it should be:

A) Good: Tau
B) Mostly Good: Imperium, Eldar
C) Evil: Anything else not Tau, Eldar, or Imperium

Reason why I put Eldar in the "Mostly Good" status is because ANYTHING that brings a damn chaos god into existence through it's sheer decadence isn't as good as what you're making them out to be. Don't get me wrong, I love my Space Marines more than I love any other units out there, but even I know they're insanely xenophobic to the extent that it will ultimately weaken them at the expense of the Imperium dogma.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> A) Good: Tau Bullshit, Tau are in no way the good guys. The Tau are some of the most duplicitous bastards in 40k.
> B) Mostly Good: Imperium, EldarNo good guys, no such thing.
> C) Evil: Anything else not Tau, Eldar, or Imperium Define evil.


Ok, I am good.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Ah, but you're forgetting the number of Imperial worlds they've brought into the fold since the Damocles Crusade, along with abandoned IG regiments, captured or defecting Imperial *warships and of course, Rogue Traders,** who were among the very first humans they met and continue to trade with. Numerous ways to learn the size and scope of the Imperium. In fact, in the current Tau Codex, it states that they understand the size of the Imperium.


Codices say a lot of things, most of which is not true. I doubt any world would have a detailed star map of the whole imperium, but you make a point, they could have a rough grasp of the imperiums size. Although I doubt they fully comprehend just what they are up against.


*That would fall under imperial star ships so I did not forget this.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Ok, I am good.
> 
> 
> 
> Codices say a lot of things, most of which is not true. I doubt any world would have a detailed star map of the whole imperium, but you make a point, they could have a rough grasp of the imperiums size. Although I doubt they fully comprehend just what they are up against.


I put it that way, when all things are put into proper perspective. Seriously, there's a reason why most folk look at the Tau and call them "The Good Guys". Oh, I'm sure they've had some moments of bastardizations, but when compared to everyone else? They come out smelling like roses in way of comparison. (Seriously, the Inquistors themselves almost damn the Imperium with their zealotry alone)

When you look at my "Evil" sections:

*Chaos Space Marines:* _"Join us or die. In fact, just f*cking die, you'll serve even in death."_
*Demons:* _"Oh boy, new play things!"_
*Tyraninds:* _*ding!* "Oh boy, dinner's here!"_
*Necrons:* _*ding! "Oh boy, dinner's here!"_
*Orks:* _"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!"_
*Dark Eldar:* _"Oh, I'll kill you, but first, I'll torture you for a couple decades."

_

Have I missed anything in "Team Evil" yet?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why is that evil? Because you say it is? Can you quantify evil? 

My point: There is no evil nor is there good, there is only perspective.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Why is that evil? Because you say it is? Can you quantify evil?
> 
> My point: There is no evil nor is there good, there is only perspective.


Okay, I'll drop you off on a planet in the direct path of Hive Fleet Behemoth and let you decide if the Tyranids are evil or not.

Let me know if your perspective changes any, mmmkay?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Okay, I'll drop you off on a planet in the direct path of Hive Fleet Behemoth and let you decide if the Tyranids are evil or not.
> 
> Let me know if your perspective changes any, mmmkay?


Is a lion evil when it eats a person? No, it is just an animal trying to survive. Same with the nids.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Why bother judging how advanced? They have already gotten past the whole "Lets cross a dozen star systems to wail on each other with chainsaw-swords!" thing. Which is as good as it gets in 40k.

Also, I am with Gen. There aren't any "good or evil" the imperium as a system, is corrupt, cruel, and malicious probably more to it's citizens than any other. But the guardsman who serves it, who want's to keep his planet and family safe, is not evil. Nor is the space marine brainwashed to kill. In my oppinion anyways.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Is a lion evil when it eats a person? No, it is just an animal trying to survive. Same with the nids.


Well, you have fun on that planet, dude. If you look up at the Thunderhawk I'm on flying away and you think you see a pair of buttcheeks pressed up against one of the port windows, yeah, that's me. More perspective for ya!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Well, you have fun on that planet, dude. If you look up at the Thunderhawk I'm on flying away and you think you see a pair of buttcheeks pressed up against one of the port windows, yeah, that's me. More perspective for ya!


Cute, but doesn't change the facts. There is no good and evil.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Cute, but doesn't change the facts. There is no good and evil.



Oh, I will agree that there's not pure Black & White, only shades of grey. But let's face it, there's forces in the 40k universe bent on 100% destruction & consumption on scale that boggles the mind. The Imperium is an insanely corrupt borderline horrible institution, but as you said, when you put it into perspective, they're ANGELS compared to such as the Tyranids or the Necons as both of them want to (depending on how you look at things) consume everything in the galaxy, thus snuffing out all life. At least with the Imperium, they just want to snuff out all non-human life and a few heretics along the way. Of which, I'm fine with, I've got a a bolter handy and I'd be glad to help.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Codices say a lot of things, most of which is not true. I doubt any world would have a detailed star map of the whole imperium, but you make a point, they could have a rough grasp of the imperiums size. Although I doubt they fully comprehend just what they are up against.


Wait...:shok: You are saying that you hold most of what is in the Codices, the backbone of fluff in the 40k universe, as not true. Then what the hell do you consider true fluff?

I've never heard anyone say anything quite like that. Yes, there is a favoring towards the race of the Codex, but most of that just tends to be coloring the truth in the race's/faction's perspective. There are some things in Codices that are on the vague or myth level that should be treated as the rumors they are, for example, Isha's fate as the object of Nurgle's affection. But as I posted, it states it quite clearly that they know that the Imperium is so utterly vast that it could easy snuff them out if they were roused to act. And as I've several times, they helped the Imperium deal with Commader Brightsword before his aggression and ruthlessness could provoke a major response from the Imperium.

Do they know the exact size of the Imperium? No, I doubt even the High Lords have an idea on the exact size of the Imperium as it is always changing with them gaining and losing worlds, discovering previously hidden or unexplored systems and the like. But again, the Tau understand that the Imperium is freaking huge. That's why they favor first trading and negotiate with Imperial borders, over time weaving themselves into the courts of the Planetary Governors and nobility as well as the common man. Plenty of Imperial worlds have fallen with little bloodshed. The Imperium tends to act more quickly to violence than through underhanded means. Of course, even when there is violence and word is sent back, the sheer bureaucracy of the Imperium could slow it down by years, decades, even centuries before they respond. It took the Imperium a century to respond to the Tau for the first time with the Damocles Crusade.

Why you seem want to believe that they don't understand the vastness of the Imperium is frankly beyond me.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

See, but look at the facts, Daemons are mindless (for the most part) beings, created to destroy. Their masters were created by humanties' worst traits.

Necrons are mindless and soulless and have no purpose other than to help feed* the C'Tan

Orks, were CREATED only to wage war, how can doing the only thing you know how to do be evil?

Nid's live only to eat and reproduce, basic animals, how is this evil?

I could go on and on, but really the only one's who are "Evil" in the most pure sense, are chaos space marines, because most of them have the ability to make a conscious choice to inflict pain and suffering. But choose to anyways.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Wait...:shok: You are saying that you hold most of what is in the Codices, the backbone of fluff in the 40k universe, as not true. Then what the hell do you consider true fluff?
> 
> I've never heard anyone say anything quite like that. Yes, there is a favoring towards the race of the Codex, but most of that just tends to be coloring the truth in the race's/faction's perspective. There are some things in Codices that are on the vague or myth level that should be treated as the rumors they are, for example, Isha's fate as the object of Nurgle's affection. But as I posted, it states it quite clearly that they know that the Imperium is so utterly vast that it could easy snuff them out if they were roused to act. And as I've several times, they helped the Imperium deal with Commader Brightsword before his aggression and ruthlessness could provoke a major response from the Imperium.
> 
> ...


It is true for the most part, but a lot of what is in the codices is propaganda, half truths if you look at it the way I am. All of it should be taken with a degree of salt. And I prefer to use a combination of the novels and the codices. Gives a clearer image.

Why? Because the imperium operates on a scale that the I am not sure the Tau could even comprehend fully. I am sure they know that the imperium could crush them like a bug and that it spans most of the galaxy, but I don't really think they truly know what kind of numbers they are dealing with. They could, I am sure they have come across many hive worlds, but I am just not sure.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Actually, I've found that new Codices tend to put more emphasis on that race's perspective. Take the first attempt by the Imperium to take back Nimbosa from the Tau. Both Codices for the Tau and IG mention it. (though in the case of the later it only appears as a paragraph in their Timeline) And both say the same thing, the IG were horribly massacred by the Tau. In the Tau, goes on to briefly mention the 'removal' of Brightsword for his ruthless and aggressive assault while in the IG Codex it paints their deaths as a rallying call to the people of Nimbosa against the Tau. Two views of the same event from the two sides yet the truth of the event remains the same. The IG tried to take back Nimbosa and were massacred by the Tau. 

And it's not like that this hasn't been brought up in the few novels that the Tau have been in. In one of the Last Chancers novels, (as I've _repeatedly_ said) the Water Caste of the Tau Empire reached out the Imperium and worked with them to have Brightsword because he was risking rousing the anger of the Imperium that would in turn, crush them.

You have two sources, Codex and BL, that point to the fact that they understand that the sheer size of the Imperium is beyond what they could hope to defend against should it's anger be fully unleashed or could take through combat. That's why the Tau favor first sending Water Caste diplomats and traders to deal with the governments and people of Imperium, seeking to convince them that they would be better off with the Tau Empire than with the Imperium. Eventually in a number of this instances, either the leaders decide to defect or the disenfranchised masses decide that they don't want the Imperium any further and rise up against their authority. That's when the Tau basically annex the system and Fire Warriors put down any dissenters to their claim. They know that if they are more aggressive in their expansion, they will rouse the Imperium to greater aggression against them. The Tau are trying to remain a mosquito in the ear of the Imperium rather that a wolf seeking to devour it like many of the other powers in the galaxy.

Oh, and when it comes to the Tau, what's in the Rulebooks and Codices make up the bulk of the fluff for them as they are rarely featured in the BL and aside from the novelization of _Fire Warrior_, there have been no novels from the side of the Tau. Unlike the dozens upon dozens of ones on the Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Oh, I will agree that there's not pure Black & White, only shades of grey. But let's face it, there's forces in the 40k universe bent on 100% destruction & consumption on scale that boggles the mind.The Imperium is an insanely corrupt borderline horrible institution, but as you said, when you put it into perspective, they're ANGELS compared to such as the Tyranids or the Necons as both of them want to (depending on how you look at things) consume everything in the galaxy, thus snuffing out all life. At least with the Imperium, they just want to snuff out all non-human life and a few heretics along the way. Of which, I'm fine with, I've got a a bolter handy and I'd be glad to help.


What I believe _gen.ahab_ is saying is, well what makes the forces of _"destruction and consumption"_ _evil_?

Why is it morally wrong to destroy, corrupt and consume? It may seem that way from our current moral system and beliefs, but does that make it universally so?

I believe there are a few good threads on just this topic in the FAQ.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Ah, but you're forgetting the number of Imperial worlds they've brought into the fold since the Damocles Crusade, along with abandoned IG regiments, captured or defecting Imperial warships and of course, Rogue Traders, who were among the very first humans they met and continue to trade with. Numerous ways to learn the size and scope of the Imperium. In fact, in the current Tau Codex, it states that they understand the size of the Imperium.


You're quote didn't stick so I'll just point out the fact that it says "incomprehensively" in it, meaning that they do not in fact comprehend the true size of the Imperium :grin:.

Also you're assuming that the Imperium has accurate maps of it's entire domain. Never forget the fact that we have access to stuff produced by the creators of this fictional universe and thus the best source for any kind of info about it. Imperial citizens as a collective are generally illeterate, ignorant and oppressed. Few would know of planets just beyond there own system and accurate star-charts of a sector would be priceless items. Several BL novels (can't pick one of the top of my head but they're out there) show rogue trader charts being jewel encrusted master-pieces, not something they're likely to trade with the blue people for some nice guns.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

You're just recycling things I've said in my last couple of posts, MEQinc. When said that the Tau understand the size of the Imperium, I don't mean that know the exact size of the Imperium, I mean that they understand that the Imperium is an utterly massive empire, far beyond their little empire. They may not be able to comprehend the physical size of the Imperium but then I doubt any of us truly can. The Imperium dominates the galaxy, spanning countless worlds. Think about it for a moment. The sheer size of the Imperium encompasses what I would have to say millions of planets and moons, home to more humans than could _ever_ be counted. In fact, I don't think we have a number that could physically sum up the number of humans in the Imperium. The Imperium is insanely vast. The Tau know this. They may not understand it's fully size but they know it is freaking huge.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

*Concerning good and evil:*


gen.ahab said:


> Cute, but doesn't change the facts. There is no good and evil.


As I said many times throughout my previous posts the list of good and evil was from the Imperium's perspective as that's primarily the perspective GW writes the fluff from. 

I do agree that "good" and "evil" changes by perspective as I detailed in previous posts, but surely you don't believe there is no good or evil. In other words that there is no definitive way to define this. Why do we have judicial systems, fines, penalties, and protections in place for any culture. If there was no right and wrong, good and evil, there would be no need for these things. 




gen.ahab said:


> Is a lion evil when it eats a person? No, it is just an animal trying to survive. Same with the nids.


I can appreciate your lion example, but aren't you taking a basic truth of survival, the need to eat, and how a lion goes about getting food to eat... and over simplifying things by using that example to apply in every situation?
I can understand what you're saying when comparing this to nids who's food happens to be all biological life forms, but what about Chaos or Dark Eldar who would enslave millions in orgies of violence and bloodshed for pleasure? Should that be in the same category as Nids?

In making the blanket statement that there is no good or evil aren't you by default saying there is no way to judge something as right or wrong (i.e. how could it be wrong to judge a lion for how it eats, etc.)? While I think a strong case could be made in that example what about a slew of others?

What about a child molester? By applying your lion example here we would be forced to say that molesting a child isn't evil since the molester is simply doing what they must to have their sexual needs met.

Or what about rape? That could no longer be evil as well since a rapist too is simply meeting their need for violence and sex.

Genocide? This has to be ok since we have no moral compass to define what is right or wrong, good or evil, there is no basis for us or anyone to declare it as such.

And the list goes on...



*Concerning codices:*


gen.ahab said:


> It is true for the most part, but a lot of what is in the codices is propaganda, half truths if you look at it the way I am. All of it should be taken with a degree of salt. And I prefer to use a combination of the novels and the codices. Gives a clearer image.


I believe what you're saying is that the codices are written from the perspective of the race the codex is written for, and as such, is skewed in a favorable light towards that race.

Yes I can see what you're saying here, but I don't think that applies (the majority of the time) to facts such as the tau took this world or that. 

Where what you're talking about might come into play, is in how the taking of this world or that is described. You know, an "all fell before the might of our armies, none could stand before us" sort of thing. In the end we can determine they took the planet, but the reality of how many casualties sustained/inflicted, how their military performed/underperformed etc. could be skewed. I hate to bring up WWII again, but take a look at how the soviets handled propaganda. They admitted they were attacked by the Germans, they admitted the situation was serious and they needed every man woman and child to do their part, etc. but they often over dramatized a victory or minimized a poor decision made on their part, etc.


Taking this into account I believe the portion *Akatsuki13* quoted from the Tau dex is not skewed, as propaganda is something one does to promote themselves or minimize another, etc. 


> *Definition of Propaganda*
> 2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
> 
> 3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect


Logically if the goal was Tau propaganda they would minimize how large the Imperium is and maximize how powerful they are, but if you read the quote below you'll see there not really doing that here. The quote from page 11, if anything, minimizes the tau and maximizes the Imperium.






MEQinc said:


> Also you're assuming that the Imperium has accurate maps of it's entire domain. Never forget the fact that we have access to stuff produced by the creators of this fictional universe and thus the best source for any kind of info about it. Imperial citizens as a collective are generally illeterate, ignorant and oppressed. Few would know of planets just beyond there own system and accurate star-charts of a sector would be priceless items. Several BL novels (can't pick one of the top of my head but they're out there) show rogue trader charts being jewel encrusted master-pieces, not something they're likely to trade with the blue people for some nice guns.


We don't need to assume anything other than what the Tau codex quote tells us.


I'll post it again...


> *Tau Empire Codex Pg. 11*
> ...It was some time before the Water Caste came to grasp the fact that the Humans they encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast galactic empire. So vast, in fact, that any overt aggression on the part of the Tau might lead to their fledgling empire's complete destruction.



This is all I was getting at...


Uber Ork said:


> I both agree and disagree.
> 
> Agree that they, nor we, truly have a grasp on the size and scope of the galaxy. However I disagree that they can't grasp the significance of how much larger and more powerful the Imperium is. We can grasp enough of this just by looking at a 40K galaxy map and we haven't even experienced maned space travel beyond our own moon. The Tau are way beyond this... I'm sure they understand enough to realize they are severely outclassed in size, population, and military power.
> 
> That would be all they need to understand to accomplish what I was talking about.





.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> I do agree that "good" and "evil" changes by perspective as I detailed in previous posts, but surely you don't believe there is no good or evil. In other words that there is no definitive way to define this. Why do we have judicial systems, fines, penalties, and protections in place for any culture. If there was no right and wrong, good and evil, there would be no need for these things.


Judicial systems are necessary precisely because there are no universal 'evils'. It is necessary to define what a culture feels is 'wrong' in order to teach its members that this act is 'wrong' and will not be tolerated. People don't (generally speaking) kill others because it's evil, they are driven to do it. In their minds they are not doing anything wrong. In their minds they are not evil. Society begs to differ and so creates a legal system to hold individuals to account but this doesn't mean that there is a singel, universal evil (which is I think what gen was getting at).



> I can understand what you're saying when comparing this to nids who's food happens to be all biological life forms, but what about Chaos or Dark Eldar who would enslave millions in orgies of violence and bloodshed for pleasure? Should that be in the same category as Nids?


The DE do what they do because it is necessary for their survival. They organize massive raids, conduct gruesome tortures because they are attempting just to stay alive. They view these acts as identical to how we might view hunting and killing a deer and then flavouring the meat before cooking and eating it. 

Necrons behave in much the same way as Nids, desiring only food for their masters.

Chaos Daemons and Orks behave in the way they were created to behave, violence is literally written into the fabric of their existance. 

Chaos Space Marines vary immensily in terms of motivations and goals but I would generally say that they are more misguided and brutal than purposfully evil (at least the interesting ones are).



> This is all I was getting at....


Which is why my response wasn't really directed at you Uber-Ork.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> *Concerning good and evil:*
> As I said many times throughout my previous posts the list of good and evil was from the Imperium's perspective as that's primarily the perspective GW writes the fluff from.


Which is why my argument was not with you, but with the poster I stated. It seemed to me that he was under the impression he thought that were universal and that evil was always evil no matter the point of view. 

Also, I know very well what propaganda is and I was not saying that that instance in particular was propaganda, but that many codices a rife with it which leads me to hold then with slightly less regard. However, stating that they know the real scale of the imperium sounds pretentious to me.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

my answer: not much more than they are now

The Eldar and the Imperium are the proof that when you are fully engaged in the galatic war, stagnation hits. You dont have the time nor the resources to innovate, rather to produce what you already know that works, and you need it NOW.

when the Taus attempt a mankind-like expansion and get fully involved in the war in all fronts, the stagnation of their technologic level is inevitable.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Sangriento said:


> my answer: not much more than they are now
> 
> The Eldar and the Imperium are the proof that when you are fully engaged in the galatic war, stagnation hits. You dont have the time nor the resources to innovate, rather to produce what you already know that works, and you need it NOW.
> 
> when the Taus attempt a mankind-like expansion and get fully involved in the war in all fronts, the stagnation of their technologic level is inevitable.


Grimdark on a platter, but well said. Although with the civilization operating through different castes, I wouldn't out-rule the Earth Caste still finding time to make new stuff.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Oh the good ol' Good vs. Evil argument.

Good and evil are just points of view, whats good to one group will be evil to another. 


> I can understand what you're saying when comparing this to nids who's food happens to be all biological life forms, but what about Chaos or Dark Eldar who would enslave millions in orgies of violence and bloodshed for pleasure? Should that be in the same category as Nids?


Taking the DE part of this first (will deal with Chaos in a sec), they do it for survival. Where the Eldar have come up with a way of resisting Slaanesh through abstinence, the DE do it through extremes. In the codex it states that they found a way to resist the Great Enemy by causing massive amounts of pain for others.



> I can understand what you're saying when comparing this to nids who's food happens to be all biological life forms, but what about Chaos or Dark Eldar who would enslave millions in orgies of violence and bloodshed for pleasure? Should that be in the same category as Nids?


Now the Chaos part. They do it for their gods in a grand slaughter. Did not your religion do this at some point? Don't try to say no, they did. Jews did it to Christians during the Roman Era, Christians to Jews during the Holocaust, Christians to the religions of the Asian/African races in the Crusades, and those religions to others in their countless wars among themselves. The point is, they did it for reiligion (one of the great war starters), where DE/Tyranids/Maybe Necrons do it for survival. Though Necrons do it for their gods which might fit in more with Religion.

For proof of this, look at whats going on now with the middle east. In our eyes (I'm an American but I think you U.K. gents are of the same opinion)), it is horribly evil, but to them, they are doing it for a great cause and therefore righteous.






> They admitted they were attacked by the Germans, they admitted the situation was serious and they needed every man woman and child to do their part, etc. but they often over dramatized a victory or minimized a poor decision made on their part, etc.


While they did do this remember that duruing periods of defeat Stalin would use the "save Mother Russia", and in periods of victory advocate socialism.




> Necrons behave in much the same way as Nids, desiring only food for their masters.


This is flawed. Tyranids do it for pure survival, as DE, while Necrons are more religious about it.




> Chaos Daemons and Orks behave in the way they were created to behave, violence is literally written into the fabric of their existance.


I could see Orks this way but I think CD do it in service of their masters.




> Chaos Space Marines vary immensily in terms of motivations and goals but I would generally say that they are more misguided and brutal than purposfully evil (at least the interesting ones are).


Where do you get misguided from?




> my answer: not much more than they are now
> 
> The Eldar and the Imperium are the proof that when you are fully engaged in the galatic war, stagnation hits. You dont have the time nor the resources to innovate, rather to produce what you already know that works, and you need it NOW.
> 
> when the Taus attempt a mankind-like expansion and get fully involved in the war in all fronts, the stagnation of their technologic level is inevitable


This.

Bringing WWII into this again, it also proves it. For the most part, (that is besides Germany who, with Hitler, was busy wasting resources on tech. advances and therefore losing out on numbers), the countries involved were stagnant as far as technology goes.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> This is flawed. Tyranids do it for pure survival, as DE, while Necrons are more religious about it.


Doesn't matter how much you wrap it up in religion they're 'Gods' require food, they require their 'Gods' to remain powered (alive) ergo feeding their 'Gods' is as basic to their survival as feeding themselves is to the Tyranids.



> I could see Orks this way but I think CD do it in service of their masters.


A bloodletter is a being literally made from hate and warfare. Expecting such a being to behave in a manner that isn't hateful or violent is just silly. 'Serving their masters' is irrelevant because they literally cannot to anything else. That's like saying that the Tyranids aren't in it for surival because they're only serving the hive mind. It's illogical and irrelevant. 



> Where do you get misguided from?


When dealing with the original Traitor legions many turned to Chaos as a means to overthrow what they beleived to be a corrupt system or to fight against a traitorous father. They were misguided in that they beleived that Chaos was simply a means to an end or a weapon (for the most part) and not a corrupting force of destruction and violence.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Sangriento said:


> my answer: not much more than they are now
> 
> The Eldar and the Imperium are the proof that when you are fully engaged in the galatic war, stagnation hits. You dont have the time nor the resources to innovate, rather to produce what you already know that works, and you need it NOW.
> 
> when the Taus attempt a mankind-like expansion and get fully involved in the war in all fronts, the stagnation of their technologic level is inevitable.





Cyleune said:


> Bringing WWII into this again, it also proves it. For the most part, (that is besides Germany who, with Hitler, was busy wasting resources on tech. advances and therefore losing out on numbers), the countries involved were stagnant as far as technology goes.


Sorry to necro this, but I followed this through a link in a newer thread. Frankly, history proves otherwise. Going back to antiquity, war and conflict has proved the impetus to great advancement in technology, at least in the technology of killing. From chariots to tanks, it's quite easy to see.

Just looking at WWII, the technological advancements are considerable, and none of the participants were stagnant in the arena of innovation. The Russians developed and produced the T-34 and then improved the design with the T-34-85; and the AK-47 is a product of the war, its design actually begun in 1945 as an answer to the technological innovation of the Sturmgewehr 44. The field of aviation saw tremendous advancements, with the P-51, B-29 and Folke-Wulf FW 190 and Ta 152 being far more advanced and vastly superior to the fighters and bombers at the start of war; and that's not even taking into account the development of jet technology on both sides and the rocketry of the Germans. Of course, WWII saw the development of the atom bomb, which can hardly be seen as technologically stagnant. Don't forget also that the mass-production of antibiotics was developed by the Allies to treat the wounded.

The stagnation of the Imperium must be seen as more akin to the Dark Ages and early Medieval Period of Europe. It could be viewed that the Horus Heresy marked a decline in the dynamic central authority of the Emperor and his regime (a sort of Renaissance for Mankind in the galaxy) to be replaced by a creaking bureaucracy and orthodoxy that sees innovation and change as heresy and holds it back artificially through its rigid strictures.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Seeing as this has been necro'd, I might as well throw my 5 cents in.

I actually think the Tau's lack of fast space travel is both a blessing and a curse. Because they can only skim across the warp, their movements between stars is pretty slow going compared to the other races, which doesn't help when you're already at a disadvantage being the new guy on the galactic scene. 

However, their slow progress is also what I believe has kept them alive for so long. Lets face, the Imperium consider the Tau to be little more than a zit on their galactic empire ass. If the Tau suddenly had to develop better space travel tech and accelerated their expansion it would cause the Imperium to actually consider them a real threat and devote a lot more resources to squishing them. And I don't believe the Tau are strong enough yet to survive a full Imperial onslaught (I'm talking Armageddon or Black Crusade kind of deployment here).


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

The Tau aren't going to get much more advanced than they currently are, as once the Emperor dies and everything goes to complete and utter shit, the Tau Empire is going to experience their first major "Holy shit! RETREAT! RETREAT! *WHOOPWHOOPWHOOP*" to the very inner most core worlds just to wait it out.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Excellent point, Chompy Bits. So long as they remain a small problem at the edge of the galaxy, there isn't too much incentive for the Imperium to unleash the full fury of its war machine on the Tau.

@Diatribe1974, how does that follow? Aside from the fact that 40K is basically locked at the end of M41, I don't really see that the Emperor dying would necessarily lead to the imminent demise of the Tau. It seems likely in the event of the Emperor's death, they would survive considerably longer than the Imperium.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Dogbeard said:


> Excellent point, Chompy Bits. So long as they remain a small problem at the edge of the galaxy, there isn't too much incentive for the Imperium to unleash the full fury of its war machine on the Tau.
> 
> @Diatribe1974, how does that follow? Aside from the fact that 40K is basically locked at the end of M41, I don't really see that the Emperor dying would necessarily lead to the imminent demise of the Tau. It seems likely in the event of the Emperor's death, they would survive considerably longer than the Imperium.


What I meant by what I'd said was that if things were ever to move forward (this giving the Tau more time to develop their technology), it'd also move forward with the demise of the Emperor and all the other shit that's been brewing & stewing for 10,000 years (re: "2 Minutes till Midnight" doomsday clock scenario). Once that actually happened, unless the Tau have MASSIVE technological advancements (i.e. Necron level technology), the literal chaos that would envelop the entire galaxy would put the kibosh on not only any Tau expansionist ideas, but quite possibly force them into a hasty slash-n-burn styled retreat. Hell, under normal current 40k universe rules, all it takes is a massive enough WAAAAAAGH! to come in to force major attention from the Tau. Can you imagine more going on on an Armageddon (re: "We're all gonna fekking die!" feeling permeating the galaxy) scouring everyone & everything?


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## Kelsik (Jun 30, 2011)

Ive had a good time reading all the pages in this thread and ive seen some good and some not so good points. 
Can the tau continue to grow and advance thier tech? absolutly. 
In space the tau navy has gone through 2 generations of ships in the time it takes the imperium to decide ocean grey is a less heretical color then steel grey.
Tau are not afraid to develope new tech as compared to the imperium that took 500 years of poking and testing a SCT of the lightning interceptor. Ever since KelborHal of the mechanicum unleashed scrap code to wage what amounts to demonicly infused cyberwarfare. Now the imperium has to vet all tech to see if a demon will jump out and possess the crew or worst.

What would help get the tau to expand more quickly?
Develope matter energy replication. With replicator tech would enable drone production to go unchecked. On the table top it would mean paying 2 pts for a drone cus they are so cheap to produce. thats not fair but im sure the Iraqies were saying the same thing when the m1 abrams came crashing through thier positions.
Cheap drones means tau armies could field drone swarms. even the nids would have to step back when confronted with drone swarms that are replaced faster then they are destroyed. 
Tau are also upgearing drones with most of their best tech, stealth, railguns, marklighters, and its only a matter of time before a drone is equipted with plasma, fusion or flamers. 
(it may not be a 40k option but thats only for balancing of codex, there really is no practicle reason any of the developed weapons couldnt be used on a drone body.)

On to the next item. psykers. Tau may not have a shadow in the warp but some of the races they embraced to the greater good do. 
The niccassar for one, infact it was teh first race to be persuaded(at gun point) to join.
Many human worlds have been allied to the greater good ( or The Unity as one short story called the tau) Over time the tau may harness psykers as tools or they may purge them as liablities of chaos possession. ( strangly it may not be unheard of that inquisitors or even the sisters of silence may visit tau worlds with large human populations in a attempt to control the wild psyker with the blind eye of both sides to just get the psykers.

Biology may be on the taus side as well. they have a high birth rate, grow to maturity quickly, have short lives as compared to other humaniod races, this is not always a bad thing as it means retirement is short, and not a large portions of gdp is spent on the elderly. It also means large worlds can respawn enough people to quickly colonize other worlds or void habitats..

my times up, got to go.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

i was under the impression the Tau didn't want to travel via the warp because of the known dangers? i assumed thats why they went hard on tech to jump from planet to planet quickly? anyway F tau and their rail guns...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> anyway F tau and their rail guns...


I take it you lost a fair # of vehicles to a broadside or hammerhead.


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## Kelsik (Jun 30, 2011)

tabbytomo said:


> i was under the impression the Tau didn't want to travel via the warp because of the known dangers? i assumed thats why they went hard on tech to jump from planet to planet quickly? anyway F tau and their rail guns...


 
As for warp travel, its not that they dont want to make better use of the warp, its that they cant make the full translation to the warp. With out a Navigator tau ships are truely blind to the dangerious currents and entities that make up the sea of souls.
Besides I think the tau method is better, slower yes but better in the long run.
A tau task force could launch 100 ship at the start of a journey, then at the end there would still be 100 ships. For the Imperium or chaos, same journey same 100 ships.
at the end some would never translate back out of the warp, some lost, some eaten, some gone mad. Some could even arrive before they even left or centruries later. Time is elastic and maluable in the warp.
That reason alone has caused many headaches for the department of munitions trying to supply distant war zones based on schedules that can change on the fickle tides of the warp.
Tau commanders can have a strict and reliable time table to move troops and materails from one end of there empire to any warzone. its slow yes but utterly reliable.

As for our vaunted Railguns, that suttle whip crack sound as a hypersonic round comes flying past so fast the very air seems to burn with friction, and enough raw kenetic force to send shock waves to knock down any standing near the impact point.
expect to see more in the days ahead. I hear the Vior'la sept is gearing thier stealth suits with rail guns. Their even outfitting the outboard drones on all their armoured vehicles with the rail rifle. ( this last section is what im currently doing for my army, I have made rubber moulds of the weapon parts I want to mass produce and Ive got a good sized armoury built up, ill be doing more work on them as soon as I finish work on the manta gunship.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Kelsik said:


> Besides I think the tau method is better, slower yes but better in the long run.


Safer certainly, better is a very subjective term. In many ways, faster is better as it allows the Imperium to respond to threats in a fairly reasonable time-frame. 



> A tau task force could launch 100 ship at the start of a journey, then at the end there would still be 100 ships. For the Imperium or chaos, same journey same 100 ships.
> at the end some would never translate back out of the warp, some lost, some eaten, some gone mad. Some could even arrive before they even left or centruries later. Time is elastic and maluable in the warp.
> That reason alone has caused many headaches for the department of munitions trying to supply distant war zones based on schedules that can change on the fickle tides of the warp.
> Tau commanders can have a strict and reliable time table to move troops and materails from one end of there empire to any warzone. its slow yes but utterly reliable.


This is true. However it leaves out two important points and makes some simplifications. 
1) Those 100 ships represent a far smaller investment from the Imperium than it does for the Tau.
2) If this fleet is launched in response to an attack, the majority of the Imperial forces should arrive in time to respond effectively. This is catagorically not true of the Tau forces. The Tau lack FTL communications as well as travel and thus any message will already likely be to late. Further, the Tau fleet will take far, far longer to travel similar distances. Long enough to make travel over certain distances impossible/inadvisable. 

Also, the warp may be unreliable but it is still generally predictable. The Imperium is capable of estimating how long a journey should take and most of the time this journey is made in roughly that time frame and minimal casualties. 
And the Tau method of travel is not fool-proof. It is less error prone than long journeys through the warp, however it is far from perfectly safe.

So of the 100 ships the Tau send perhaps 98 arrive safely and at the predicted time. The Imperium is likely to achieve something like ~70 ships arriving safely. Is the 28% improvement in survival rate better than the ~50% slower travel? 



Kelsik said:


> Develope matter energy replication.


Does this mean creating matter/energy or turning energy into matter? The first is impossible according to the laws of Thermodynamics (which still apply in 40k). The second is far from a simple task and does not really allow for the things you think it does. The E=mc^2 relationship shows that it requires *massive* (get it) energy inputs to create even small amounts of mass, hardly allowing for unchecked drone creation. 



> Cheap drones means tau armies could field drone swarms. even the nids would have to step back when confronted with drone swarms that are replaced faster then they are destroyed.


1) As mentioned previously I doubt this drone swarms could be replaced with the speed you suggest.
2) The Nids have fought counter-swarms before. Humanity and the Orks both use (or have used) this method to deal with them, both have been largely ineffective. The Nids adapt and replicate at a rate the Tau cannot match. If they choose to adapt at the rate of the Nids they can be successful (as shown in their dex). If they choose to replicate at the same rate I doubt they will succeed. If they try to do both, they will get murdered. 



> On to the next item. psykers. Tau may not have a shadow in the warp but some of the races they embraced to the greater good do.


The problem then comes from the caste system of the Tau. Those races that are inducted into the Greater Good are commonly treated as 'lesser' than the Tau themselves. Placing the amount of trust and power required of a ship navigator in their hands is not something the Tau are eager to do. Further, this would certainly provide easy opportunities for rebellion. 



> Over time the tau may harness psykers as tools or they may purge them as liablities of chaos possession. ( strangly it may not be unheard of that inquisitors or even the sisters of silence may visit tau worlds with large human populations in a attempt to control the wild psyker with the blind eye of both sides to just get the psykers.


This seems very unlikely. The Imperium is incredibly intolerant of Xenos and thus is very, very unlikely to send valuable resources like Black Ships into Tau territory. Secondly, the Tau are unlikely to enjoy Imperial interference with their worlds. After it is easiest to 'reprogram' the human populaces' is by servering contact with their previous masters. Finally, 'buyer beware' is the likely attitude of the Inquisition in this situation. If the Tau want human worlds then the problems inherent in those worlds (including humans themselves) are their problem now. Inquisitors stepping in to protect the Tau from rogue psykers would be like the Ad-Mech stepping in to protect the Tau from nuclear reactor overloads (admittedly a task the Tau could handle themselves).



> Biology may be on the taus side as well. they have a high birth rate, grow to maturity quickly, have short lives as compared to other humaniod races, this is not always a bad thing as it means retirement is short, and not a large portions of gdp is spent on the elderly. It also means large worlds can respawn enough people to quickly colonize other worlds or void habitats..


1) How much of the Imperium's GDP do you figure is spent on the elderly? How many humans live to reach a retirement age? The Imperium is bleak and harsh. If you can't work than you get nothing on many worlds.
2) Their is little evidence at best to suggest that the Tau populace is capable of growing at rates that would allow for unchecked colonization. The Tau are shown to be fearful of human population growth (sterilization of populations) and overall numbers. There is nothing to suggest that Tau worlds suffer from overcrowding, or that their populations are growing at all rapidly. In order to colonize a new world without massively depleting your current population you require the birth rate to massively outweigh the death rate and I am not convinced that the Tau achieve this.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> 1) How much of the Imperium's GDP do you figure is spent on the elderly? How many humans live to reach a retirement age? The Imperium is bleak and harsh. If you can't work than you get nothing on many worlds.


In one of the 1st 2 Ravenor book there is a family in which 2 of the brothers that were crippled on the job are little more than floating blobs in tanks.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Haven't the Tau sworn off deeper research into the warp after their experiences during the Medusa campaign? If i recall correctly all the daemonic activity, unexplainable phenomena and people going crazy etc turned them off further warp research. 

Ultimately, with their current warp usage, the tau are unable to become any kind of major player and will not be able to expand much further. They simply won't be able to control any large number of planets. Their ships would be too slow to respond to threats and due to their messenger boat system for interstellar communication the warning would arrive too late. 

Right now their small size is a good thing. They haven't attracted the Imeriums notice in the same way the Orks or Chaos has. They are not exposed to all the myriad threats of the galaxy, they can control their small empire effectively and are able to keep a high standard level of technology. This is the Imperium's problem with technology. They can produce some fantastic stuff but are limited by logistics and the need to supply a million worlds and uncounted billions of soldiers. The Tau by comparison only have a small military, one that their factories can meet the demands of and ship equipment to in an satisfactory time frame. 

So i wouldn't say the Tau have better tech, or are more advanced than the Imperium (they're not, the Imperium can match or exceed each example of tau tech or have superior equivalents) but have a much higher standard level of technology across the population- mainly due to their small size.


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## Kelsik (Jun 30, 2011)

Hello Meqinc, That was a great breakdown of my post. It was probably the most feed back i ever got on any topic. That was probably the most enjoyment ive had reading a post in a long time. 
Its late and im getting up for work early so ill just reply to Replication.


> Originally Posted by Kelsik
> Develope matter energy replication.
> 
> Does this mean creating matter/energy or turning energy into matter? The first is impossible according to the laws of Thermodynamics (which still apply in 40k). The second is far from a simple task and does not really allow for the things you think it does. The E=mc^2 relationship shows that it requires massive (get it) energy inputs to create even small amounts of mass, hardly allowing for unchecked drone creation.


How right you are, its not worth the energy alone to creat matter.
How ever energy can be used to reshape existing matter. Matter preformatted to allow other templates to be formed over it. The building blocks at the molecular level. 
What would the best or even a exellent base matter be? Hydrogen for its simplicity? How ever its stored, That process allows for mass storage. 
One problem may a rise in difficutly or cost of prepairing the protomatter (protomatter is as good a name as any i supose)
As long as the supply of protomatter can be met, production can continue, as long as the energy supply is sufficient.

Im not a absolutist thinker, I often take multiple sides of a issue or problem and enjoy working possible and outlandish outcomes.
Its late, and ive got to head, It was good times tonite. good nite.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

locustgate said:


> In one of the 1st 2 Ravenor book there is a family in which 2 of the brothers that were crippled on the job are little more than floating blobs in tanks.


That`s all well and good however it is also largely irrelevant. Firstly because I was refering to the Imperium in general, as obviously specific planets will vary widely in their treatment of this issue. Secondly, I imagine those individuals were members of wealthy families (I don`t recall them from the books myself) and thus their care was likely fronted by those families and not the Imperial government of their world (which would be the GDP that I was referring to). I imagine that Imperial governments on the majority of worlds do not invest heavily in social welfare programs. 



Kelsik said:


> How right you are, its not worth the energy alone to creat matter.
> How ever energy can be used to reshape existing matter. Matter preformatted to allow other templates to be formed over it. The building blocks at the molecular level.
> What would the best or even a exellent base matter be? Hydrogen for its simplicity? How ever its stored, That process allows for mass storage.
> One problem may a rise in difficutly or cost of prepairing the protomatter (protomatter is as good a name as any i supose)
> As long as the supply of protomatter can be met, production can continue, as long as the energy supply is sufficient.


Again I`d imagine that the energy required to manipulate matter at the atomic level would be far greater an investment than the output would warrant. The amount of energy that is stored in atomic bonds is quite extraordinary and the amount of energy required to form new bonds or break existing bonds is equally high. Further, actually altering an atom to form a different one is a) very, very difficult and b) incredibly risky. A nuclear reactor (and thus an atomic bomb) works in this manner. Look at the energy (and destruction) these devices can harness/unleash.

Also, where are the Tau getting this energy from? Presumably they would be using nuclear reactors or some similar tech. In this case your manufacturing plant requires: vast quantities of hydrogen (or other base material, you`d probably be better off starting with another metal as you`d have to change less), incredibly complex and delicate machinery and an on-site (or at least dedicated) power source, likely of the nuclear variety (with all the add-ons such a site would require. And in the end, all your getting for this is a few more drones than you would be able to build otherwise. My guess would be that redeploying the assets required to making this facility to making more drones conventionally would be a better investment. 

None of that`s to say the idea of matter-energy manipulation isn`t possible (I would speculate that the Necrons have pulled it off somehow). It`s just that I doubt it would significantly alter the Tau`s ability to wage war.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

Tau needs some tradgecy...


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

*Klaswullt*

Three things...

1. Welcome to Heresy! I hope your time here is as enjoyable as mine has been! :biggrin: 


2. Threadomancy is frowned upon on most forums, including this one. The last time someone commented on this thread was in July of last year. There's no need to dig up long dead threads. If you want to discuss Tau potential simply start a new thread, and give your insights or ask a question, etc. 


3. Did you mean the "Tau need some tragedy?"


klaswullt said:


> Tau needs some tradgecy...


I'm not trying to be too hard on you, but when you post make sure you're clear on what you mean (as it stands I have no idea what you mean by the tau need some tragedy). Being clear in what you mean will help other members be able to respond to your point or question, and foster a healthy conversation.

Secondly, always seek to add something of value to the discussion. Make clear well thought out point/points, and then make sure to explain and support them. For example, did you mean to say that the tau need to face a good crisis because doing so, would undoubtedly stimulate their technological creativity (i.e. "necessity is the mother of invention"). If so you should say that and then support it with a few examples. 



I have no doubt that doing these 3 things will help you in becoming a great member of this forum! And again, welcome aboard! :biggrin:



*Edit:* I see you've done this with multiple threads all over this sub forum. You would be wise to listen to the advice other forum members and mods are giving you.


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