# On Angron and the Emperor



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

A thought just occured to me while reading another thread. *This post will contain spoilers*, so just be warned. 

When the Emperor saved Angron from the slave masters and sent him to his ship. I do not recall the Emperor ever having punished the slavemasters in the first place. Why did the Emperor not just teleport down and stand beside Angron and fight them?

The Eaters of Cities were likely outnumbered but with the God-Emperor fighting beside Angron against slavers who enslaved humans -- you would think that the bond would be formed instantly and permanently. The world where Angron was found would have had to become compliant. 

I just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If the Emperor could stand against the Chaos Gods, make pacts with them, sit upon a Golden Throne for 10,000 years -- he couldn't defeat an army of slavers?

If he'd done that then Angron would likely have marvelled at his martial abilities and forever devoted himself to him.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Good point. Instead he ended up with a son who would rather have died with his comrades than join his father and would hold that against him forever. It definitely seems out of sync with how he dealt with the rest of the primarchs.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

That's what we call plot armor. 9 primarchs had to turn to chaos. Angron needed a reason To. In case you didn't notice all primarchs who challenged the emperor never turned.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> That's what we call plot armor. 9 primarchs had to turn to chaos. Angron needed a reason To. In case you didn't notice all primarchs who challenged the emperor never turned.


Er, Mortarion.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i wouldnt trust Angrons interpretation of events, nor would i trust the interpretation of the civillians on that planet.
if that IS the true story , then i think the writers made the emperor look like a complete and utter dunce.
I'd say it was more likely that Angron killed all his friends, so the emperor changed some of the facts in his mind, but Angron's mind being as twisted as it is....well twisted it.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

My interpretation is that Angron already had given up, he was already dead in his mind and wellcomed the imminent oblivion that would free him from the torture of the nails. But the Emperor saw different, he had a need for Angron that superceded the broken Primarch's own desires, and thusly swept him away and sent him to the War Hounds to wage battle upon his foes. Sure he knew Angron was dying inside, but found the Primarch to have been too much of an investment to just discard him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think the Emperor wanted to teach him a lesson, a moral of some sort.

It could just be a piece of lore written without any afterthought. Perhaps ADB should expand upon it.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I think Angron had an ulterior motive with his last stand. He desired to go out with a bang, to ravage and rile up the city states so much that they had no choice but to throw out everything in the arsenal in order to put him down. He wanted to die to end the pain, and used his talents in warfare to make sure a whole world was united against him in a collosal battle. And then, his father arrives and takes him away from his planned death. He have already given up, nothing more to live for, only going through the motions, a zombie desperately seeking the peace for his tortured mind in the deepest dim of battle that never lasts long enough. And if his mind finally blanks out, the Communion is there to drag him back to his tortured existence.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Marcoos said:


> Er, Mortarion.


I'd say that was less of a challenge and more of a dare. The emperor knew that he couldn't survive that high up as did the guy who found him. 

Besides russ ferris and vulkan challenged the emperor himself. It wasn't a go kill this guy sort of thing.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

It's certainly a huge mistake of the Emperor's in hindsight.

It's my belief that the fact that Angron had 'failed' to become the ruler of his planet had a massive bearing on this. Relatively late in the crusade (approximately 100 yrs into it) and with Angron one of the last Primarchs to be discovered, the Emperor had less time to spend one on one with his newly found sons, and at that stage he was looking for stable, willing to become compliant worlds. If the high-riders appeared to control and peaceful, prosperous planet, and potentially had contact with the expeditionary fleet to suggest they would become a valued participant within the Imperium, then maybe the Emperor was unwilling to destroy a planet and it's population just to 'bond' with his son.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Good points all. Though another plot hole that's always nagged me was why didn't the Emperor just confront Angron on his flagship and try to bring the Primarch back from the brink. Again, there is a good point made that 9 Primarchs fallen and 9 Primarchs remained loyal -- with the popular belief that one from each side may have been half and half (Dark Angels and Alpha Legion). 

Hopefully one day we get a World Eaters Triology (similar to the Night Lords, Word Bearers, and the semi Iron Warriors ones we already have) that will explain some of it to us.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Marcoos said:


> If the high-riders appeared to control and peaceful, prosperous planet, and potentially had contact with the expeditionary fleet to suggest they would become a valued participant within the Imperium, then maybe the Emperor was unwilling to destroy a planet and it's population just to 'bond' with his son.


Again this is not the usual way the Emperor dealt with Primarchs and their home worlds. They usually get to keep their homeworld as a recruiting base, and Nuceria, considering Angron's background, would seem to have proved a very successful source of recruits. 

Besides, if the rulers did claim to want to be constructive members of the Imperium, surely the big man would have told them to lay off Angron and his buddies. Or he could have destroyed the advancing army in one orbital strike or flex of his psychic muscles. Neither would have taken more than an hour, so time probably wasn't a factor, and he would have had at least a guilt free, and at most eternally grateful, son.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Well, at the point of The Emperor's arrival, angron was on the run, having succeeding in rousing a huge army hot for his blood. Sneakilly spiriting off his son, instead of comming down from on high would leave no ruffled feathers at Imperial intervention in their local affairs, which would have been sure to leave the whole upper class highly pouty and resistant to the idea of compliance.

As we see on the return to Nuceria, Angron is truly shocked to learn that they thought he simply had fled when his slave army had been destroyed, never once suspecting the Emperor had claimed him.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Brother Lucian said:


> As we see on the return to Nuceria, Angron is truly shocked to learn that they thought he simply had fled when his slave army had been destroyed, never once suspecting the Emperor had claimed him.


I'll take your word for it. Haven't got that far yet. They're still on Armatura as far as I've got.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Well considering Angron is a Primarch, I'm sure the Emperor could have rationalized that one world is not worth the loyalty of his son. Even if the local landlords had been extremely benefical to the Imperium -- they were slavers. 

The Imperium explicitly forbids enslavement of humans. Now we all know that the 41k Imperium is rather vague on this issue but the Great Crusade Imperium most definately was not. With the exception of some Legion 'serfs' but to my knowledge there is some kind of a difference. 

With that in mind I doubt the Emperor would have given a rat's ass about the concerns and beliefs of the local nobility concerning his intervention. One world's feelings surely meant nothing compared to gaining the love and loyalty of a primarch whom named his legion the World Eaters.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The Emperor have always been portrayed as supremely ruthless. 

Facts: Angron was dying from the nails and had a death wish, and attacked his custodes upon their meeting and killed some. So the emperor have him teleported away and pawning him off to the war hounds to at least get SOME use out of a broken primarch. And as expected, the world eaters serve for a time, even as they steadilly degenerate. 

The Big E had already condemned two sons, he would not hesitate to put down Angron should need arise. After all he prepared the executioner space wolves to deal with rogue sons. For with twenty he could afford to loose some, and Angron made himself useful at first. But eventually he would have to be reined in.

Tho one can speculate just why Russ had orders to take angron back to terra, to be condemned for his excessess perhaps? Curze was also on the verge of being censured as the heresy broke out.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The Emp was a ruthless bastard. Manipulation and lies pretty show why he was the father of the paranoid Lion. Whatever reason he had, it was easier and more comfortable for him to leave the slavers in charge. In truth I don't think he cared for Angron from the beginning. He could have saved him most likely from the Butchers Nails that were killing him. Instead he screwed his son like he did Magnus. Angron had every right to turn.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> i wouldnt trust Angrons interpretation of events, nor would i trust the interpretation of the civillians on that planet.
> if that IS the true story , then i think the writers made the emperor look like a complete and utter dunce.
> I'd say it was more likely that Angron killed all his friends, so the emperor changed some of the facts in his mind, but Angron's mind being as twisted as it is....well twisted it.


I concur. I feel bad that Angron seems to be the problem child of the primarchs with no sign of salvation. Angron had been destroyed as a legitimate and responsible primarch the moment he was tainted with the butcher's nails. I don't think Angron's intrepretation of the Emperor is very fair. Especially when primarchs like Russ and Vulkan were much of a pain to convince by the Emperor in joining his Crusade. I find it hard to believe the Emperor simply force Angron to join. That seems a bit out of character. Even with Mortarion he did all that he could to get the support of him. It obviously kind of worked against him in the end, but the good intention was known.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> The Emp was a ruthless bastard. Manipulation and lies pretty show why he was the father of the paranoid Lion. Whatever reason he had, it was easier and more comfortable for him to leave the slavers in charge. In truth I don't think he cared for Angron from the beginning. He could have saved him most likely from the Butchers Nails that were killing him. Instead he screwed his son like he did Magnus. Angron had every right to turn.


Thats all fine and dandy, but it wasn't ruthless, just monumentally obtuse, going completely against how we know him.
regarding the history of Angron and his home-world, we have his word (which really means jack shit) and the word of the people, which is several centuries old and im sure fraught with inconsistencies.

I really doubt he could save him from the butchers nails anyway, whatever the butchers nails are, i really don't think their invention was strictly conventional, in so far as in my opinion, it seems the warp (khrone) had a hand to play in its creation.
it causes a horrible hatred of psykers, pain at their simple existence and is completely deadly when attached to a psyker too, changes all drives/psychology and makes a mind that finds pleasure in only one medium, blood and skulls.
The emperor, being the most powerful psyker in existence, would arguably by his simple presence aggravate severely the butcher's nails.
The nails also being so heavily entrenched in his psyche i question if he would survive even a partial removal of them.
And he did not screw Magnus, magnus screwed himself,who then proceeded to screw the Imperium with no lube.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lost&Damned said:


> Thats all fine and dandy, but it wasn't ruthless, just monumentally obtuse.
> regarding the history of Angron and his home-world, we have his word (which really means jack shit) and the word of the people, which is several centuries old.
> 
> I really doubt he could save him from the butchers nails anyway, whatever the butchers nails are, i really don't think their invention was strictly conventional, in so far as in my opinion, it seems the warp (khrone) had a hand to play in its creation.
> ...



And -that- is likely the reason to why the initial meeting between the Emperor and Angron went south. The Primarch going completely nutso from a truly brainsplitting headache in the presence of the Emperor, causing him to lash out and destroying two custodes. Plus at that point in his life, I doubt angron trusted any authorities, just seeing them as chains to bind him.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

There's nothing to indicate the planet Angron was orphaned on was relatively out of compliance, assuming the leadership had already agreed to become a good little compliant world before the Emperor teleported down. From what I understand they didn't have any overt contact with chaos, theocratic governments, or multi-planetary naval forces. From the Imperial standpoint, they already had a stable economy and government that could probably start paying their Imperial tithe immediately. The Imperium hasn't seemed to have any inclination to micromanage local social customs, penal systems, or overturn successful dictatorships... as long as the dictator was also the 'Imperial Governor' too.

And to my knowledge, no other Primarch was intentionally enslaved from the get go. Mortarion and Curze were both just cast down into the dregs of society, from which they fomented revolution.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

The Emperor was definitely ruthless but there's a difference between ruthlessness and idiocy. 

How the Emperor handled the Angron situation made no sense before reading Betrayer and it still makes no sense after reading Betrayer. I had really hoped ADB would give some hint as to the Emperor's intentions.

In Betrayer, Angron even has a little monologue about how the Emperor didn't even send his troops down to help Angron. He also later laments how the other Primarchs had friends/mentors from their home planet join the SM alongside the Primarch. (Lorgar had Kor Phareon/Erebus, the Lion had Luther) Angron had nobody...every person he cared for was killed.

Oh, and it definitely wasn't because it would have been risky/the slavers were strong... Betrayer shows that the slaver armies would've been EASILY crushed by space marines.

Emperor's reasoning = ???


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I still hold on something went badly wrong during the first meeting between Angron and the Emperor. and as it have been suggested, the godlike power of the Big E, likely sent Angron into a paroxysm of rage with the world splitting headache his fathers presence was giving him. Only until out of his presence, retaining broken memmories of the event and clutching onto them to focus himself. And with his father having left such a bad impression on him, even unwittingly, Angron's memmories have likely been severely miscolored.


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## Keeper of the fallen (Jan 14, 2013)

^ i agree sadLor, i hav wondered that myself for awhile. ther wer other options available to the emperor or better solutions to the problem but instead angron had to watch everyone he knew slaughtered.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Keeper of the fallen said:


> ^ i agree sadLor, i hav wondered that myself for awhile. ther wer other options available to the emperor or better solutions to the problem but instead angron had to watch everyone he knew slaughtered.



One wouldnt exactly be inclined to soothe a mad rabid dog, but just throwing it away in a corner until it have come down from its frothing frenzy if not outright killing it. Exactly what The Emperor did, pawning Angron off to the War Hounds because he still had value, being a primarch, even if rabid. The Emperor had done his job for meeting his errant son and granting him a legion, now onto the next leg of the Crusade. After all the War Hounds, or rather Kharn managed to calm Angron and direct him onto the Emperor's foes just as he had expected would happen.


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## Keeper of the fallen (Jan 14, 2013)

http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/World_Eaters_(DH)

i found this in one of the other threads, it doesnt answer the question i no but it gives a insight into how angron could of gone the other way. i no it might not make perfect sense but a small insight none the less.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Keeper of the fallen said:


> http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/World_Eaters_(DH)
> 
> i found this in one of the other threads, it doesnt answer the question i no but it gives a insight into how angron could of gone the other way. i no it might not make perfect sense but a small insight none the less.



That is from the Dornian Heresy AU writtings. Though I think it was written based upon the older lore for Angron. From what I could see in Betrayer, Angron had the Nails hammered into his skull nearly from the beginnining, since his brain had grown around them. The nails themselves altering the architecture of his brain as he grew. And considering how fast primarchs grow up, he cant have been more in the teenage state when he got physically mutilated, knowing how fast primarchs grow up. Plus the older lore had nothing like the new psysker induced agony. The new version of Angron depicted by ADB is a lot worser off than his original incarnation, and I think explicitly engineered to ensure the meeting between the Big E and Angron would be volatile, instead of more like ambigous as I think some people is still stuck on.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> The new version of Angron depicted by ADB is a lot worser off than his original incarnation, and I think explicitly engineered to ensure the meeting between the Big E and Angron would be volatile, instead of more like ambigous as I think some people is still stuck on.


It's a shame we'll probably never know what really happened at that first meeting. All we have is Angron's memories (which as you said might not have been the true version with the nails driving him mad)...

We're obviously never going to see it from the Emp's side. The only thing to hope for is something like the Soul Hunter trilogy which greatly enhanced our understanding of the Night Haunter through his sons.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

sadLor said:


> It's a shame we'll probably never know what really happened at that first meeting. All we have is Angron's memories (which as you said might not have been the true version with the nails driving him mad)...
> 
> We're obviously never going to see it from the Emp's side. The only thing to hope for is something like the Soul Hunter trilogy which greatly enhanced our understanding of the Night Haunter through his sons.


Theres always a hope that Malcador might touch upon the first history of the tormented Angron in The Master of Mankind. Given the flashback with Mally examining a sleeping Angron.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Theres always a hope that Malcador might touch upon the first history of the tormented Angron in The Master of Mankind. Given the flashback with Mally examining a sleeping Angron.


Good point! And considering ADB is the author...it seems more than possible.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

I truly do not understand why the emperor didn't help Angron, and neither does Lorgar. From Betrayer:

_Lorgar’s eyes were fierce now. ‘But why? Why did he let your army die? Why did
he steal you in a teleportation flare, when he could have remained here for a time, as
he did on so many other worlds? He had a Legion – your Legion – in orbit, Angron.
A single order, and they would have bloodied their blades at your side, saving your
rebel army and hailing you as their gene-sire. Instead, he collared them, as he
collared you.’_


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

To me it's like the emperor wanted angron to turn. Like he planned on it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Or upon seeing Angron, he psychically scanned him as he did with all the primarchs and realized he was beyond saving and decided that his time and resources would be better spent elsewhere as opposed to saving his buddies. 

Or he was extremely disappointed that one of his sons, whom he invested so much into creating, turned out to be a broken weapon but despite being incapable of leading a legion to glory, the Emperor in his moment of loss decided to whisk Angron away ASAP anyways to do his part in the Great Crusade regardless of his efficiency. 

The tech-priests operating on Angron in the attempt to remove the butcher's nails was probably the Emperor's attempt at showing the primarchs that he cared about all of his sons even if they are crippled.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Or upon seeing Angron, he psychically scanned him as he did with all the primarchs and realized he was beyond saving and decided that his time and resources would be better spent elsewhere as opposed to saving his buddies.
> 
> Or he was extremely disappointed that one of his sons, whom he invested so much into creating, turned out to be a broken weapon but despite being incapable of leading a legion to glory, the Emperor in his moment of loss decided to whisk Angron away ASAP anyways to do his part in the Great Crusade regardless of his efficiency.
> 
> The tech-priests operating on Angron in the attempt to remove the butcher's nails was probably the Emperor's attempt at showing the primarchs that he cared about all of his sons even if they are crippled.


I find that hard to believe. The imperium was capable of flattening continents building the fang and a host of other achievements. Yet they were incapable of removing a implant from a primarch? Seems to me like the emperor had something else in mind.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> I find that hard to believe. The imperium was capable of flattening continents building the fang and a host of other achievements. Yet they were incapable of removing a implant from a primarch? Seems to me like the emperor had something else in mind.


Granted the primarchs were the results of the supra-genius of the Emperor, it taking millenia for the arguably most gifted apotecary Fabius Bile, to begin to even grasp his works. Normal apotecaries had no idea what was inside a Primarch.

And the brain implants had litterally broken the mind of Angron, his rapidly developing brain growing around the nails and having the architecture severely changed as a result. Resulting in them being unremovable because Angron was found too late.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I find that hard to believe. The imperium was capable of flattening continents building the fang and a host of other achievements. Yet they were incapable of removing a implant from a primarch? Seems to me like the emperor had something else in mind.


Read Betrayer.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Read Betrayer.


I agree. That should answer all his concerns.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> I agree. That should answer all his concerns.


I disagree. It barely touches upon his past, his relationship with the Emperor and his brothers nor does it answer most questions people have had about Angron over the years.



Also the about Angron encountering the Eldar in his youth after crash landing on the planet, the way it was described made it seem like he fought against a group of Dark Eldar whereas in previous fluff, it's stated that some Eldar foresaw Angron's role in the heresy and sought to kill him while he was still a youth.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I disagree. It barely touches upon his past, his relationship with the Emperor and his brothers nor does it answer most questions people have had about Angron over the years.


Sorry, I meant regarding the removal of Angron's nails. I should be more explicit.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> Sorry, I meant regarding the removal of Angron's nails. I should be more explicit.


Ah I see. 

Well then to be honest Reaper45 is right in a way, it does seem odd that the Emperor's tech-priests or the Emperor himself could not cure Angron. 

It just seems that the big E did not care enough to bring out the big guns. I'm sure he could have used the warp, his vast knowledge or the myriad of dark age of technology gadgets he owned to repair him but perhaps being the only primarch to fail in taking over his host planet and the only one who was enslaved by mere humans made the Emperor look upon him with disdain.

I would not be surprised if no one but the primarchs and the World Eaters themselves knew of Angron's failure of a past as it would be quite morale-shattering to any attachment of IG assigned to aid Angron and to the Imperium itself. 

Imagine, the son of the Emperor being unable to conquer a world and being a gladiator slave to a society of pompous nobles. 

I'd imagine it would be quite hard for the most powerful and successful human being in existence to stand him.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Weren't the nails found to be Xenos tech? And Angron's were unique to him? Meaning the Mechanicum didn't have another to analyze in order to understand how to get it out if his brain without killing him? I thought the first bit I mentioned was in Betrayer and the rest was implied?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

IIRC there was no mention of the butcher's nails being xenos in origin.

It simply was a case of the butcher's nails being designed for a human mind but the nobles decided to stick it onto Angron's brain anyways.

His only saving grace was that he was a primarch and so the effects of the butcher's nails were diminished for many years.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> IIRC there was no mention of the butcher's nails being xenos in origin.
> 
> It simply was a case of the butcher's nails being designed for a human mind but the nobles decided to stick it onto Angron's brain anyways.
> 
> His only saving grace was that he was a primarch and so the effects of the butcher's nails were diminished for many years.


It was mentioned that Angron's was different to the nails used in the World Eaters. His couldn't be replicated exactly as some components were Xenos tech. I can't be assed digging out the book to find the page/s.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

I bet you the emporer could have removed them. He created the primarchs, the greatest pysker and let us not forget, with a touch, "Machine Heal Thyself"


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

As i stated previously, i dont think its a mechanical construct, but in fact made from the warp.
its at the bottom of page2


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> As i stated previously, i dont think its a mechanical construct, but in fact made from the warp.
> its at the bottom of page2


 
Even more reason he could have removed them or fixed..


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

theurge33 said:


> Even more reason he could have removed them or fixed..


I think the nails where of Khornate origin, or likely heavilly inspired by the blood god. Think about it, the nails fills your head with agony when near a psyker, making you want to destroy them. Plus causing psychic powers to go completely haywire.

It was probably the reason to why the Emperor couldnt remove it with his will, the nails being anti psychic.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> I think the nails where of Khornate origin, or likely heavilly inspired by the blood god. Think about it, the nails fills your head with agony when near a psyker, making you want to destroy them. Plus causing psychic powers to go completely haywire.
> 
> It was probably the reason to why the Emperor couldnt remove it with his will, the nails being anti psychic.


In addition to this, it seems to me that gods marked certain primarchs to a greater degree than all others, Mortarion spending his childhood in a poisonous, plague ridden world, Angron on a world immersed in war, Magnus in a world that treasured knowledge above all else.
it seems logical that Khrone played a hand in the creation of the Butcher's nails.



theurge33 said:


> Even more reason he could have removed them or fixed..


Quite obviously, you never read what i wrote.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I wonder...

Speculation incomming.

If we take Erebus' words about the Emperor bargaining with the four gods of chaos for the power/knowledge to create the primarchs as truth, perhaps the main four marked primarchs was always meant to be the 'payment' for the deal.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> In addition to this, it seems to me that gods marked certain primarchs to a greater degree than all others, Mortarion spending his childhood in a poisonous, plague ridden world, Angron on a world immersed in war, Magnus in a world that treasured knowledge above all else.
> it seems logical that Khrone played a hand in the creation of the Butcher's nails.
> 
> 
> Quite obviously, you never read what i wrote.


 
I did, and I understand your theory...I just lean to the thought that he didn't want to remove them, rather than couldn't safely, for the same reasons he didn't save Angron's army, he had another agenda for Angron or he thought he was beyond saving and to be used as a tool. If he couldn't have removed them and counter Khorne's hand, then why have such grandplans for Magnus? He could have just as easily earned Angron's loyalty, crushed the slaver army and had a beastly gladiator primarch under his banner. There had to be another reason and I hope it gets expanded upon more..


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think we'll get alot more explaination to everyones questions in 'The Master Of Mankind'. i remember after reading 'The First heretic' and asking why the hell Lorgars trip into the eye was included. obviously it turned in 'Aurelian' so i expect these questions will just be answered in another novel so as to keep people hooked on the next release.


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## Born Silent (Feb 5, 2013)

I think everyone has touched on the reasons why the Emperor essentially banished and spurned his son.

It's the same behavior he exhibited with ALL of his sons. Magnus with his curiosity and hubris could have been swayed at any time by a simple show of respect and sharing of real information. The red giant believed he was more important and smarter than all of his brothers and the fact that the Emperor would not let him in on the secret end-game was ultimately what drove him to work so hard to gain favor through ANY means necessary. A simple "hey son, here's what I'm actually planning. You are the only one who can know this. Keep it secret or I'll execute your ass. I'm trusting you on this. Now leave me be I have work to do and so do you" would have honestly prevented an entire rebellion essentially. Did the Emp do it? No. Because as a leader, as THE leader, you cannot show favoritism except where it is publicly acceptable (as in the case of Horus) or you show WEAKNESS. The last thing the Emp wanted to appear as was weak. He struggled with the decision, obviously, as was shown in prospero burns. But it was a decision he made, none the less, despite how retarded it seemed and how much it obviously pained the old man.

As I touched on Horus, the obvious solution was for the Emperor to simply give honest attention and respect to his favorite son. The only thing Horus ever really wanted was for his father to admit that he missed his son too. That his work was important, and to confide in him about what his end-game really was all about. But, as many fathers do, he rationalized and gave his favored son grudging respect and public praise, but beyond that could not do more. He could not show favoritism to the point of exclusivity. If Horus appeared to be what he really was, a potential successor, then it would mean that the Emperor himself was mortal and his authority not actually absolute. This was a danger, obviously, to the Emperor's idea of how the Imperium should turn out.

Think on Lorgar, also. All of that pride. All of that devotion. All of it could have been solved by a simple show of humanity towards his son. An enlightening of a wayward offspring through trust and outreach. He could show none of that on a galactic stage. The leader must lead, not coddle. So he punished rather than parented when hints and orders would not suffice to get the point across.

Now we see Angron. Broken, twisted, impossibly angry. A failure of a tactician, a slave to his own emotions (ultimately) just as much as he was a slave to his masters from adolescence. Here was the best humanity had to offer, and it was broken and twisted and horrible. One move as a father, and he could have saved his son, yes, but he would have had to sacrifice his vision of what he himself HAD to be for the Imperium itself. He could not be seen to be weak. He could not let his son, too well known by the time of his near-death at the hands of the slavers, become the example of what primarchs were capable of as failures. He could not let it stand. So yes, he punished his son. He sent his monstrous, murdering son away and told him to slaughter at his command. As an example to all NOT to fail him and NOT to fail the imperium. As an example of how he would not let failure stand. As an example of how he could take even the most broken thing and make it useful. But more poignantly, as an example, ultimately, to Angron himself of the ultimate price of failing those under you.

In all honesty I think the Emperor was just as humanly flawed as his creations, if not MORE so. If for no other reason than the fact that he COULDN'T appear human. He was, for all intents and purposes, a god. In his mind he couldn't give in to godhood nor let others see him as one, so he HAD to appear as a noble (of undeniably infinite power, of course, but simply a noble all the same) and not a god. However, he couldn't let other nobles think for even a second that they were actually on equal footing with him, because they weren't. In no way was the Emperor ever actually free, in my opinion, and his apparent spite toward Angron, the uncontrollable slave, I think is a dull reflection of the Emperor's wroth for his own reality.

It's part of what makes the series so engaging for me. The most powerful being in the known universe (arguably anyway) being brought low by his own un-accepted and yet undeniable flaws.


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## Born Silent (Feb 5, 2013)

Also keep in mind Angron was broken by HUMAN HANDS. Not by the obvious machinations of chaos gods or xenos plots. Humans. Just horrible, twisted humans.

In an Impirium ruled as much by fear as it was by enlightenment, I don't think for a second that an example of a primarch being broken by humans and then executed by his own father would be seen as a profitable outcome by the Emperor. It would show too much weakness to be viable. The only viable course was to turn that broken thing upon the worst fools the human race (and other species) had to offer in defiance of the Imperium. In a sick kind of way, the Emperor was too proud of his broken son to let him die a quick death.


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## Brother Dextus (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm only up to 'Nemesis' so far on the HH books, so NO SPOILERS yous guys!

Born Silent has pretty much summed it up really. Emperor, father, failure!

The Emperor, given that he is all the religious prophets through history, and that he's the coalescence of the greatest shapers/psykers throughout history all in one man, does one not think that he is effectively the all powerful being?

Having said that, he is also the weakest individual ever to walk the face of Terra!

He's this all powerful being, ultimate psyker, the greatest genetic scientist, the most heroic warrior, the most knowledgeable scholar, the father to the second greatest beings ever in existence within the human race.... And he didn't trust a single one of them!!

If he had told Magnus of the end game of the webway, the CoN would never have occurred; Magnus would have understood the risks.

If he had not taken Angron away from his fellow gladiators, Angron would not have such hatred for what he felt was a forced dishonour allowing his brothers and sisters to die.

If he had allowed Mortarion to kill his 'father' and not just stepped in and done it himself, Mort would probably not feel the same shame as he did so.

If he had simply been honest to his sons, the heresy would never have happened. Horus would not feel spurned at being left behind, Magnis would not have created the rift in the palace, Alpharius would be less likely to 'side' with chaos as he would understand the long game. It goes on. The emperor was, by simple dishonesty or not telling the whole truth, the first and greatest weak link in the chain.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Speaking of removing the nails, they didn't need to be removed, they only needed to be deactivated, a much simpler proposition than physically removing them.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Brother Dextus said:


> If he had told Magnus of the end game of the webway, the CoN would never have occurred; Magnus would have understood the risks.


Nikea had nothing to do with the webway project. Magnus was censured for his dabbling with the warp, nothing else. I don't think this is a fixable problem, the fact is that Magnus was too arrogant for his own good. The Emperor explaining that there was power beyond Maguns' control, or beings capable of manipulating him, in the warp Magnus would've taken that as a challenge and ended up in the same place. 



> If he had allowed Mortarion to kill his 'father' and not just stepped in and done it himself, Mort would probably not feel the same shame as he did so.


IIRC Mortarion set forth to kill his 'father' and failed. It was only as he was literally dieing from the poison fog that the Emperor stepped in, killing the sorcerer and saving Mortarion. That's why Mortarion is ashamed, because he failed. He wasn't tough enough. For a man who prides himself on his toughness above all else, that can be pretty shattering. And ultimately there was nothing the Emperor could've done differently there, Mortarion was physically incapable of killing his 'father' and emotionally unwilling to accept any other end-game.



randian said:


> Speaking of removing the nails, they didn't need to be removed, they only needed to be deactivated, a much simpler proposition than physically removing them.


Can't say for certain, as I haven't read the book, but I'm guessing the Nails aren't designed to be deactivated. From all the descriptions I've read of them they seem to be always on, just waiting for the emotional surge to kick in, which is what makes the World Eaters so crazy. I mean, they're directly wired into his neural chemistry that's not something that tends to come with an off switch.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

As I mentioned in another post, the back and forth over Daddy-did or Daddy-didn't is the reason the traitor Primarchs are coming across as complete gits to me. As Born Silent mentions, this is the Emperor of Mankind, not Ward Cleaver. The Primarchs are supposed to be super-intelligent with pretty much carte-blanc access to most of human history* and by the time of the Sanction of Monarchia they were what, about 150 years old? "If Daddy the Emperor would have just said XXXX, I really would have felt loved at long last and none of this would have been necessary."

I think that's the whole issue between Guillaumin and Lorgar, one was expecting the other to act like an adult, much less a leader of humanity.

* to head off the quote requests, in Horus Rising the library on board the Vengful Spirit is chocked full of unedited Strife Era Terran history that talks all about the warp, sorcerers, and the daemons they used in their wars. In Outcast Dead, it tells of a mural that Guillaumin carves on the cliff of a Terran sea-ridge, "...a veiled reference to when the primarch's father had travelled there and studied it's architecture" although the City had been destroyed for thousands of years. This wasn't the time of 40K and the Emperor didn't seem to keep much information from his sons.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Born Silent said:


> Also keep in mind Angron was broken by HUMAN HANDS. Not by the obvious machinations of chaos gods or xenos plots. Humans. Just horrible, twisted humans.


No, its psychic in nature, it would cripple a goddamn primarch or a whole legion if it was just human, specially when considering not only was it human, but was used in a relatively backwater planet.
No way could something human so completely ,terribly distort and irrevocably change a primarch, and indeed almost kill him.
it's quite obvious considering its properties (changes the neural pathways so pleasure can only be derived from killing and the fact it is seemingly not only incompatible with psykers but also a complete anathema to them, causing severe pain in the user and death should the user be psychic)the properties are basically a mirror image of khrone.


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