# Where can I find other 40k optimists/tau fans?



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Sometimes, I feel sort of lonely as one of the only optimists and tau fans here. No, I don't think I am leaving 40k, but it would be nice if I could find the location of other optimists/tau fans/"Forces of Order should unite and fight evil" 

Sorry if I offended anyone. I am just wondering where all the Tau fans (who probably _are_ the optimists) are.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

You will be hard pressed to find any optimists. Simply because the whole 40k universe is centred on the idea of stagnation and pessimism. It is supposed to be a dark and hopeless setting, where there is no hope for the so-called forces of order.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm a tau fan.

We have a rebellious commander possibly possessed by a chaos artefact sitting in heavy fortifications just outside our space

We are beset by a hive fleet of xenos ther ravenous appetite for destruction unshakeable. This has caused us to be circumvent our expansion efforts into protection for our own salvation

Raids of speedy warriors hit us without warning taking slaves and prisoners and we know not from where.

A huge enemy sits with enough might to crush us on our borders and any attempts to invade their space could be met with catastrophic force despite the unsettled millions that would come upon our side if we were to invade.

Our first efforts to encroach upon them, were successful showing that the fringes of the imperium are weak and open to turning to the greater good however eventually we were met with a battle that though eventually reaching a stalemate took all of our might against only a fraction of the imperium's.

Thus our efforts are slowed by our need for caution and the message of the greater good is not being passed with enough speed.

Tell me what is there to be optimistic about?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Platypus5 said:


> "Forces of Order should unite and fight evil"


well its a problem when there are no forces of order and evil, just forces of different shades of grey.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> well its a problem when there are no forces of order and evil, just forces of different shades of grey.


That isn't my point. My point is where are all the "optimists?"


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> well its a problem when there are no forces of order and evil, just forces of different shades of grey.


And shades of grey on the black end of the scale for that matter as well.

I'm a tau fan but not an optimist about the 40k universe.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> That isn't my point. My point is where are all the "optimists?"


I am typically considered fairly optimistic and even I think thing we are all boned. For the tau I see no reason to be optimistic for the reasons stated. As a wolf player I am just arrogant enough to believe we could win but my head says unless the emperor gets in the game we are screwed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> That isn't my point. My point is where are all the "optimists?"


I think that question has been suitably answered already.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

deathbringer said:


> We have a rebellious commander possibly possessed by a chaos artefact sitting in heavy fortifications just outside our space


Actually, we have no idea what exactly the Dawn Blade is, other than its a non-Tau artifact. It could be a Chaos weapon just as easily as it could be a weapon of the Necrons, the C'tan, the Eldar, the Old Ones, or a forgotten, lost race, just to list a few possibilities. In fact, in the old GW website, there was an article where they two Farsight conversions, one where Farsight was ultimately still loyal to his people and the Greater Good, merely carving his own path without the Ethereals, while the other had the Dawn Blade as a C'tan/Necron artifact (I can't remember which, but you get the point) and he and his warriors becoming unwitting warriors of the C'tan.

Nor do we know what exactly has befallen Farsight and his Enclaves.

Personally, I'm a Tau fan, and tend to be more on the optimistic side. I hold out hope for Farsight and his warriors, that they may be rogue, but ultimately, they're still loyal to their people. And I tend to favor the hopeful notions of 40k and its potential future. But that's just me. I want the heroes for fought and died, to have fought and died for a reason, for something better than what currently is.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Im optimistic for the annihilation of the universe, does that count?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Why find other optimists? It's not like 40K is a life style. It's just a game; one with interestng lore backing it up, but a game nonetheless. Just throw your opinion into the masses, and if anyone disrespects you for it, stick to your guns and tell them to shove it.

And there are no "forces of order" in 40K. There are arguably some races that are more benevolent than others, but the only races that don't feed chaos are the necron and possibly the tau.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> Tell me what is there to be optimistic about?


Always look on the briiiiiiight side of life....*whistles*


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Really guys! I find it very upsetting to hear no positive feedback for my various optimistic statements. I want to find a group where I fit in


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Im optimistic for the annihilation of the universe, does that count?


:laugh:

Well, it's still brighter than what would happen if some of the dark powers of 40k took control of the galaxy.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Im sorry Platypus5, but finding true optimism in WH40K is like trying to find a Tim Burton movie that does not have Jonny Depp in it. 


K3k3000 said:


> And there are no "forces of order" in 40K. There are arguably some races that are more benevolent than others, but the only races that don't feed chaos are the necron and possibly the tau.


Forces of order? That can be arguable


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Im sorry Platypus5, but finding true optimism in WH40K is like trying to find a Tim Burton movie that does not have Jonny Depp in it.
> Forces of order? That can be arguable


Should I leave 40k? If so, what series would you recommend?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Don't leave 40k. lol We need our optimists. Besides there are some optimists...... the chaos fans at least. :laugh:


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually, we have no idea what exactly the Dawn Blade is, other than its a non-Tau artifact.


Hence the word possibly, I was more trying to impress the gloom on the situation. Plus if he was true tau, why is he fighting as a mercanary against the tau?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

deathbringer said:


> Hence the word possibly, I was more trying to impress the gloom on the situation. Plus if he was true tau, why is he fighting as a mercanary against the tau?


What? I've never heard of Farsight fighting against the Tau Empire. In fact, I have the current Tau Codex and on the page of Farsight's background, it says that he's operating outside outside the Empire, refusing to return to T'au, establishing the Farsight Enclaves, while the Tau Empire considers the region forbidden and contact has been severed between the FE and the Empire. There's nothing that I can find that the Tau Empire and the Tau of the FE have fought each other. What I've read indicates that the groups don't actually interact with each other, much less fight each other.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Can't remember where I've read it but there is something on the farsight enclaves selling themselves as mercenaries somewhere in the tau codex.

EDIT: however i cant find it, when i can I'll quote it
I know I've read it somewhere


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

don't worry you'll find other optimists for 40k, im optimistic but i still want the emperor to die and im a marine player


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually, we have no idea what exactly the Dawn Blade is...


Thats why _deathbringer_ said 'possibly.' 



Platypus5 said:


> Should I leave 40k? If so, what series would you recommend?


Are you serious? Contemplating leaving the hobby because no one else shares your viewpoint? Stick to your guns and remain an optimist if you so wish it, but you'll have to accept that it'll be a very rare occurence to come across any more people of that view. 

Or alternatively you could embrace the true grimdark nature of the 40k universe and take a more pragmatic view like the rest of us.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

@deathbringer


deathbringer said:


> Can't remember where I've read it but there is something on the farsight enclaves selling themselves as mercenaries somewhere in the tau codex.


Kroot Enclaves?



Codex: Tau Empire (Pg 17) said:


> Pech is entirely integrated into the Tau empire, but not all Kroot fight for the Tau - it is not unknown for mercenary forces to be found fighting alongside Eldar, Human renegades, the dread legions of Chaos and even Orks. The Kroot have no deeply held prejudices against any particular alien races and give little or no thought to who they fight, only that they are paid. This practise is entirely at odds with the Greater Good, and so the Kroot keep knowledge of it from the Tau [:shok:], itinerant Mercenary Kindreds avoiding contact with Tau forces.


longwinded yes, but its the only thing in the codex to do with Tau forces fighting each other, with O'Shavah simply being 'severed' from the Empire

@OP;
your optimism is a jewel in Grimdark. GW has come to the Endgame, M.41 is coming to an end, the Imperium is crumbling and Ork, Chaos and Tyranids forces are becoming bigger and stronger. the Tau in their hopeful empire are now facing the Tyranid threat, but who's to say that hope does not exist.

- if the theories are correct (Tyranids avoid Necrons?) could Farsight return with his Dawn Blade (necron weapon?) and be the key figure in defeating the Tyranids threatening the Empire? only GW knows.
- could the tau discover/invent a whole new level to their technology, boosting their position in the dying days of M.41

optimism needs theories to back it up, even if its far fetched or logical, i for one believe, that all in M.41 will have a plunge towards destruction, Orks claiming Imperial worlds, as with Chaos and 'Nids. the crumbling of the Imperium HOWEVER GW can't end it cause they need the money. Things will get bad, like really bad, but as with the Emperor emerging to claim the stars, someone/something will emerge and set a balance, with balance restored the races will continue their exploits, and we get another 50 years of 40k. :biggrin:

keep to it and you'll find optimists, but they iz hiding :laugh:

Grish


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Chaos are the ultimate optimists. The universe is going to burn so why not be the one burning it down?


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Kroot Enclaves?


KROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Join the Kroot :biggrin: They have plenty of reasons to be optimists, there's always more genetic information in the galaxy...

We will eat you skin if you don't join us.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Catpain Rich said:


> KROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
> 
> Join the Kroot :biggrin: They have plenty of reasons to be optimists, there's always more genetic information in the galaxy...
> 
> We will eat you skin if you don't join us.


How the fuck could you join a group that is exclusive to one species? lol


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

You have plenty to be optimistic about. 

1 you are not a space dark elf... or dark eldar, or what ever the 22 people that actually play them call them these days. 

Thats a huge reason to be happy.


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

I would consider myself an optimist about the 40K universe. Go read about Cypher, or the Sensei and Star Child, or the Eldar Death God Ynnead. Even the rumor that Guliman is healing slowly while in Stasis. Even the basic idea that the Tau feel they are doing the right thing.

There is optimism to be found in the 40K verse, if there wasn't, the overall feeling and story of the universe would be too grim. I don't know if GW will ever decide to actually have the Emperor re-born to lead humanity in a new golden age, or if the Eldar will all die but in doing so create a new god and defeat Slanessh, but I always got the feeling that M41 was the "darkness before the dawn". After all, if this is supposed to be the end time of the galaxy, do you really think GW will end the whole game when they finally decide to move the fluff forward? I doubt it.

Anyway, you can count me in as a 40K Optimist, and I exclusively play Orks!


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

I thought all Tau players were optimists simply because the Tau Empire just keeps getting stronger and stronger. Not to mention their saying is very optimistic "FOR THE GREATER GOOD!" :victory: Well unless you're a Farsight fan.

As for myself I am a very optimistic 40K player in that one day evil will be vanquished and good will prevail. Yeah yeah I know some chaos players are gonna come burn my body later whatever.

However I find myself questioning your claim as an optimist, if you truly are an optimist and think that you are alone in your support of the forces of order then you should not be deterred for any reason. So if you feel alone and hopeless and that you should just give up then maybe you are not as optimistic as you say you are.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

imntdead said:


> As for myself I am a very optimistic 40K player in that one day evil will be vanquished and good will prevail. Yeah yeah I know some chaos players are gonna come burn my body later whatever.


You have a very simple view of the 40k universe if you so readily label the Imperium as 'good' and Chaos as 'evil' (which is who I presume you are referring to) and make them out to be polar opposites.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You have a very simple view of the 40k universe if you so readily label the Imperium as 'good' and Chaos as 'evil' (which is who I presume you are referring to) and make them out to be polar opposites.


Do not assume that you know my own understandings and beliefs that I apply to the universe that makes up Warhammer 40,000 when I have never described them to you.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Thats why I said 'I Presume'.

Then i'll ask  - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats why I said 'I Presume'.
> 
> Then i'll ask  - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?


I dont considered one good or evil; its just dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.

But to make everyone feel good inside with a positive response, the Imperium is better... unless you take exquisite joy in having your soul munched on like a bag of Doritos.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They are both filth.... it's just that the imperium is an ever so slightly lighter shade of filth.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats why I said 'I Presume'.
> 
> Then i'll ask  - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?


All I said was that one day evil will be vanquished and good will prevail. I did not list any factions, cults or races. However when it comes to the Imperium I do not look at it as a single whole of any ideology. The Imperium has proven to be neither an absolute good nor evil; but an oppressive, galaxy spanning tyrant of human beings clinging to their former glory. 

My comment about the chaos players threatening to burn my body was just a simple joke; but when it comes to chaos it is evil, the representation of our own evils, our own sins. Something we will never be rid of or fully control which raises the question of if it really is an absolute evil or not.

Now there may not be an exact representation of what make us good or our virtues in the form of any faction or race; but the good is there, it does exist and it will prevail :victory:

Yes I know chaos worshipers do your worse :aggressive:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

imntdead said:


> but when it comes to chaos it is evil, the representation of our own evils, our own sins. Something we will never be rid of or fully control which raises the question of if it really is an absolute evil or not.


If I may be so bold as to quote myself from another thread (saves me paraphrasing everything). These are my personal views on the matter: 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And that is where the problem arises. Humans generally percieve 'evil' ultimately as something utterly unproductive to society, or something which goes against the social norm. But that doesn't necessarily mean such acts are universally and objectively evil, if such a concept even exists objectively.
> 
> From this human perspective Chaos is 'evil' because it corrupts, kills and generally goes against human perceptions of 'good'. But what Chaos truly represents is ultimate Chaos, pure and untroubled freedom. Unrestraint and liberty from social burdens. But does make it inherently evil? I would say not, it is a natural and elemental force - shaped by the base desires of mortals - so in this regard its no more evil than the base desires of humanity.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...the Chaos Gods act as they do because they have no choice. They are the manifestations of the galaxy's most prominent emotions/thoughts/actions. Khorne cannot not kill people, because he literally _is_ rage, anger and bloodshed. If he is evil, then anger in itself is evil. I think most people would agree that in order to be described as 'evil' at the very least you need free will and autonomy, something which *in this regard* the Chaos Gods do not have.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But the problem there is that your judging their actions based from a human perspective. Humanity may see them as evil because they kill and devour. So by that you could label them as evil in a subjective sense, from a human viewpoint. But to call them universally evil is fraught with problems. Only if there is a universal morality, which the Tyranids oppose/go against can we then describe them as immoral/evil. Otherwise they are only evil according to humans who percieve them as such, and then its really only down to opinion.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree there. The Chaos Gods are the manifestations of the mortal psyche pushed to what the mortals base desires truly wish. Love for example is pushed its extreme, becoming mere lust and excess, for that is arguably what the base psyche ('Id') actually desires. Hope becomes flippant and constant change. Any sense of Honour or martial pride is pushed to rage and anger (and so on).
> 
> Its not that these things are evil or even 'darker' as you said. They just represent what truly free (from social burdens etc) and natural mortals would long for. And yes these things obviously have to be suppressed in order for human culture and society to function (it gets a bit Freudian here!) but they are ultimately what our base desires yearn for.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye. But again I would find it a struggle to call such a thing inherently evil. Humans may well percieve it as an evil force because it cannot coexist with established and 'civilised' norms, but in essence it as you said just reflects the emotions, thoughts and actions of mortals.
> 
> Personally, to describe something as 'evil' at the very least they would need Free Will - and I think most people would agree with that.
> 
> ...


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## Alex (Jan 19, 2008)

In response to the OP, it is indeed hard to find optimists for races in the grim darkness setting that 40k is in. However, I've always been optimistic about Farsight's Tau being loyal and some optimism being injected into the setting( if only because I play them) I did think that about the whole of Tau, what with them being a young, growing race, but the unknown way the ethereals control them has always bugged me and made them a little less of an optimistic group. Keep up the optimism though, their isn't that much going around in 40k. 


@Deathbringer

I believe the quote about Farsight being a mercenary was from the old codex, or a hero or villain article in an old white dwarf.


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If I may be so bold as to quote myself from another thread (saves me paraphrasing everything). These are my personal views on the matter:


I consider myself an optimist of the game. I know that humanity will prevail in the end. :biggrin: So please don't leave the hobby there is still hope in the universe.

As for the Good/bad thing, here are my thoughts on that matter:

To consider some faction good and the oher evil does not mean that one has a simple point of view. Of course good and evil depends of one's beliefs and principles, but there are some universal principles that by definition are not relative. Think for example in survival. Each and every race in the universe is bound to survive, procreate and endure (heck even chaos wants to survive to continue "chaos-ing" everyone). So in this regard, one can and will consider anyone or anything evil if it goes against this principle. Its universal and applies to everyone/everything. Chaos wants us all dead? Then they are evil, just as a lion is evil to the farmer when it eats his cattle. Of course the very notion of good/evil requires some level of inteligence, to name it as such. The lion will never call the hunter evil, but it knows that he's up to something "not good" and either fights back or flees (instinct tells it that the hunter is up to no good, call it evil in human words).

As I see it Chaos is the physical counterpart of everything that is good and just with humanity and they thrive to corrupt it. So if humanity has love, in the warp they have lust, we have loyalty, they have betrayal, and so on. The Chaos gods are by definition evil not only to humanity but to all races in the universe, since they oppose that which they stand for (be it pure hunger, total domination, etc.) This makes our hobby such a great one, because humanity fuels the Chaos gods, not with "pure acts of evil" but with the opposite. This is a very interesting dichotomy and represents the always-refered struggle of good vs. evil. No humanity, no chaos, new hobby for us. 

So to round things up, I do believe that one can call chaos evil, perhaps more evil than any other race because of what they embody. In the end each race is only trying to survive, which I think, is a GOOD thing.:grin:


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Perhaps I should modify my original request:

"Where (If at all) can I find anyone else who wants to see tau, imperium, and eldar form alliance for grand endgame against other factions."

Extremely unlikely, yes, but not totally impossible. Please don't question how likely or not that is to occur. (I myself have thought of a way, but it is still a very unlikely but not impossible way. I no longer care about who I share my ideas with. I would accept feedback from an idiot or moron as long as it is genuinely positive.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Okay, Platy, I`ll have a go.

Imperium, Eldar and Tau alliance? Here goes...

The Imperium as we know it collapses, and Terra is lost. The tau capitalise on the loss of imperial faith and successfully integrate dozens of faith forlorn human worlds into their fold. Their strength only grows from here, and within a few decades even ultramar has agreed to form a treaty with the empire. FTL technology is developed which frees them from ultra dependance on the warp.
The Eldar of the eastern side of the galaxy recognise a chance to unite with a strong and open minded faction, and become advisors. Their farseers guide the military might of the alliance to where it is needed most, and the forces of chaos are sent reeling. Now able to use the webway to transport far greater armies, the Eldar begin to see hope in their futures, and their faith is not misplaced as the tau and human armies devastate all would be foes with advanced technology and inexhaustable armies. The future has never looked brighter, and even the eldar are not looking back.

How`s that?

Optimism is kinda fun! :biggrin: Don`t leave the hobby. Remember it is entirely up to you how YOU want to interpret it. If you can see hope, then ther IS hope! (despite my old signature) And let none dispute that! (Raises fist in triumph!)


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

I am optimistic.. The 'Nids will come , Chaos will contine to attempt to conquer hapless worlds and the Empire will continue fighting a loosing battle. Eladar and Necrons will still be eternal and anddo what damage they can to the new comers in the universe. The Squate and Zoats will still be missing and the Tau will always be feeling that there is a Greater Good to be found. This will continue.
I have a fledgling idea for a Tau army. I am Optimistic there will be plenty for my Fire Caste Cadre to do in the future.


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## Trihahalos (May 29, 2010)

*Either optimist or pesimist have A LOT of fun*

Since it is fiction we can have any number of opinions. One can think that every battle he fights with his army either brings his side closer to victory (tau closer to uniting all for the greater good, orkz bringing forth the aporkalypse etc). Hell, even a loss can be beneficial (the enemy was tied up and did not attack elsewhere, we learnt a lot about them and will be ready next time etc). 

I do not think the war will ever end as long as GW posts profits. It is a wargame after all... From what I have seen well: 

1. The orkz would have won... If they were united and they will NEVER be.

2. The Eldars would have won... Alas, they brought slaanesh to life. Now they are way too few to do so, despite their awesome tech

3. The Imperium would have won... Stupid Horus... Now the Emperor is down and all it can do is defend against Chaos and all the others. If the enemies came one by one, maybe the Imperium would win but no: Chaos crusade while at the same time a huge orc waagh ravages on the northern fringe and tyranids are headed to holy terra. 

4. The necrons would have won... That's right, they actually LOST the war (in a sense) and now come back to fight against not only the ones that defeated them but a lot of new enemies as well.

5. The tau might win... Being this tiny and besieged on all fronts their only chance is that they advance technologically and attack when the others are fighting amongst themselves while not paying any attention. I see them getting stronger but winning? Not really (and Iam Tau player)

6. Chaos would have won... But wait, they lost when almost HALF the marines were WITH them, they were united under Horus and they had HORUS. And all this against the Imperium only which was caugh by surprise (and which only had a fraction of the Imperial Guard forces back then). Good luck defeating all the others too. Sure the Imperium almost lost the Emperor too but hey... it survived.

7. The dark eldar... Same as Eldar though they are pretty peaceful with the idea that they will NOT win and are too busy running from Slaanesh and torturing innocent people while selling their souls.

It is an endless waltz. Optimistic or pesimistic fight on, the battle will never end! Perhaps this makes the orkz the only winner!


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

Well met! But things are such in a delicate state that the smallest thing and the ooutcome can be completely different...*cof* Imperium *cof*


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Trihahalos said:


> 6. Chaos would have won... But wait, they lost when almost HALF the marines were WITH them, they were united under Horus and they had HORUS. And all this against the Imperium only which was caugh by surprise (and which only had a fraction of the Imperial Guard forces back then). Good luck defeating all the others too. Sure the Imperium almost lost the Emperor too but hey... it survived.


I would call that 'Chaos Space Marines/Mortal followers of Chaos' rather than 'Chaos' itself. They are for all intents and purposes completely seperate factions with different purposes and intentions.



Trihahalos said:


> Perhaps this makes the orkz the only winner!


and Chaos, considering it feeds off of the constant warfare and the by-products of both war and mortal life.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The thing is, the more you get into the setting, the more you realize that there are NO good guys. At all.

Tau *call* themselves 'the greater good' because really, even chaos doesn't label itself as evil (Nobody's going to get seduced by it if it goes around calling itself the forces of evil). It's bad PR. Tau see themselves as good just the same way that the ignorant, superstitious, bigoted xenocidal forces of the imperium see themselves as good. Doesn't mean they are.

The Tau enslave other races, period, fullstop. They just do it with a smile on their faces and call it acceptance. If they show up on your planet they give you two choices: Surrender and join them, or resist and be conquered and destroyed. They won;t go away if you don;t want to be a part of their communist collective.

Once they invade they will crush all resistance and herd the survivors into education centers where they get spoonfed propaganda, sterilized to prevent unwanted population growth and forced into the collective, where they are *not* treated as equals. The whole hypocritical phrase 'tau are the first among equals' tells you that they're the ones on top and everyone else is a second class citizen.

Seriously, read some of the fiction, hell, watch the Tau ending for Dawn of War.

The tau are just as selfish and evil as any other race out there, they;re just more two-faced about it.

The Eldar couldn't give a flying fuck about anyone else in the universe. They see themselves as the only higher species and all the other races exist only as threats or tools. They are concerned first, foremost and always with their own survival. The only reason they don't launch into campaigns of xenocide to wipe out the lesser races is because they don't have the manpower. They form temporary alliances now and then only when it suits them, and they betray those alliances whenever it suits them. They seem humans and tau everyone else as primative lower life forms, animals that don;t have the decency to know their place.

The Imerium is corrupt and ignorant and backwards and hateful. They will *never* form any kind of lasting alliance with *any* alien race, at all, period. Aliens are just as evil and subversive as daemons to them. Temporary battlefield alliance come and go depending on the circumstances and the commanders, but you will never see any large scale cooperation between the humans and any alien race, not for any real time at least. Humans believe much like the eldar that they are the only true race and everyone else is scum beneath contempt. They just aren't willing to fake tolerance long enough to manipulate the others.

They view the tau as dangerous upstarts that they can and will utterly destroy, just as soon as their attention isn't needed to quash the much more important threats of the tyranids and chaos and orks. Humans remember when tau were barely evolved savages, they will never see them as any sort of equal.

This isn't a case of being optimistic or pessimistic, it's a case of knowing the background or not.

There are no good guys, no forces of order. The only order that exists is that which is imposed by whichever flavor of cruel totalitarian regime you like best. Eldar, humans and tau all seem to establish *their* brand of order and at best (eldar) are indifferent to anyone else's until they pose a threat, or at worst (humans) will wipe the others out just to ensure their supremacy.

The only *good* news is that the blatantly destructive forces in the game are just as incapable of forming alliances.

Orks give not one shit about politics, peace or unity. They live only to fight and kill and have fun doing it. They form temporary alliances amongst themselves and nobody else. Even if they wiped out all non-greenskin life in the universe, there would still be no peace because they would simply go back to fighting each other out of sheer boredom if nothing else.

Tyranids exist only to consume. They don't go for politics or alliances either, that kind of thinking may well beyond their alien mindset. THey swarm and breed and eat and that's it.

Necrons just want to wipe out all life and are just as alien as the nids. They form no alliances with any organic being. They simply destroy.

Dark eldar, they're just out to rape and pillage and defile. They don't really care about diplomacy or galactic domination. They're creatures of the now, self-obsessed and decadent. 

Chaos seeks to destroy reality as we know it. They *do* form alliances from time to time, but only in a selfish, one-sided manipulative way. They don't befriend orks or nids or other races, they simply trick manipulate, corrupt and direct them. You may find a Waaagh! headed up by a chaos-possessed warboss, or an eldar warband tricked into starting a war by false visions, but you don't see the other races joining forces with them if they have any idea what they're doing. 

That's just the way it is. What about "In the grim dark future, there is only war" infuses anyone with hope for peace?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

:goodpost:

Hear Hear.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Alex said:


> In response to the OP, it is indeed hard to find optimists for races in the grim darkness setting that 40k is in. However, I've always been optimistic about Farsight's Tau being loyal and some optimism being injected into the setting( if only because I play them) I did think that about the whole of Tau, what with them being a young, growing race, but the unknown way the ethereals control them has always bugged me and made them a little less of an optimistic group. Keep up the optimism though, their isn't that much going around in 40k.
> 
> 
> @Deathbringer
> ...


I don't know. People like Child of the Emperor and Galahad (No offense) make me feel rather unwelcome here..... I don't think they like me..


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You seem overly sensitive. We don't necessarily agree with your optimistic view point (well ok- we just don't) and we will keep shooting down your happy-clappy theories, for my part because I like to argue and your an easy target...:angel:

But that doesn't mean we dislike you as a person, I don't have an opinion either way.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> You seem overly sensitive. We don't necessarily agree with your optimistic view point (well ok- we just don't) and we will keep shooting down your happy-clappy theories, for my part because I like to argue and your an easy target...:angel:
> 
> But that doesn't mean we dislike you as a person, I don't have an opinion either way.


I guess I am sensitive. What can you expect from a person who's main image is a platypus? I can hold an argument, but only if I have allies. And I can't seem to find any here....


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Sorry dude I cant speak for anyone else but the reason I like and have stuck with this game is I revel in the pessimistic overtones of the background. 

When you eventually ferment your brain in the fluff long enough you lose all ideals regarding hope and 'victory'...of course you'll still have the delusional guys who think that the Primarchs are still alive and that if they came back or the Emperor woke up the Imperium would some how conquer all (which is bollocks, they didn't do *that* well in the Great Crusade when everything was in the Imperium's favour).

But on the bright side there are glimmers of hope here and there just don't expect too many other newbies to throw in on your side


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well... it is possible that 5 primarchs are alive. One is at the very least. lol There is a wee bit of hope for you. lol And who says conquering the entire galaxy would be a good thing? Far to large, I say consolidate power in a smaller area that you can actually hold.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

I notice that a lot of people on the youtube comments page of Tau soulstorm xeno epilogue tend to be very optimistic... (Click there for comments.)





Where can I find more people like them?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Youtube. lol We arn't pasamists because that would emply we think the worst. To be honest, most people here are actualy realists, this is what the 40k universe is.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Also the fact that a lot of those optimists are like you platypus, and don't know all that much about 40k.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Good enough for me.

Sorry that it had to come to this. I will be back from time to time.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> Good enough for me.
> 
> Sorry that it had to come to this. I will be back from time to time.


Are you leaving Heresy because people don't agree with you?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

If he leaves because people don't agree with him, what's going to happen when he isn't surrounded by sycophants in real life?

Platypus, grow a thicker skin and add a few years. That youthful naivete and optimism will go bye-bye soon enough.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> I don't know. People like Child of the Emperor and Galahad (No offense) make me feel rather unwelcome here..... I don't think they like me..


Don't be soft! - Just because most people flat out disagree with your naive (no offence intended!) view of the 40k Universe, thats no reason to leave. None of us would have anything against you for sticking to your guns and remaining a deluded optimist. But one of the reasons why I personally enjoy the 40k setting much more than other sci-fi/fantasy settings is because of the dire hopelessness - it really adds a unique richness to the background.



Platypus5 said:


> Where can I find more people like them?


Why would you want to find more people like them? What would be the point in immersing yourself in other optimists, you would really only be restricting your own personal outlook on the 40k Universe. Your very welcome here on the forums, but why do you seem to feel the need to surround yourself with other optimists?


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## Harlequinn Farsight (Feb 27, 2010)

while I'm not exactly a tau fan or an optimist I really enjoy the tau fluff I do think there gonna be a REAL power in the universe like the Imperium but hey who knows


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> I guess I am sensitive. What can you expect from a person who's main image is a platypus? I can hold an argument, but only if I have allies. And I can't seem to find any here....


Well the platypus is a venomous mammal and so is not quite as cute and defensless as it appears. Don't presume something should be a certain way just because thats how you want it to be 

But seriously, isn't the problem a lack of confidence in your own ideas? if you truely believed that your 'optimist' view of the 40k universe was correct then when some one disagreed with it you would be able to argue back and support it with fluff. If an idea is sustainable, it shouldn't matter if you have allies, because others won't be a able to simply demolish it. I realise that in real life, presenting your ideas before people can be intimidateing, but this is just an internet forum about a gothic science fiction setting. All you have to do is type about something that isn't real. Your not even talking face to face with people. As you type stuff, people can't even see the expressions on your face. You don't need allies.

You say you feel people like Galahad and Child of the Emperor hate you. Why? They have always been civil posting. They have just posted an opposeing view to yours and backed it up with game fluff. If you have an arguement to contradict what they say, post it. If not then learn something and be happy you've increased your knowledge. But if you expect everyone to be agreeing with you why bother posting in a place that is meant for discussion and debate? In real life the best way of developing all ideas is through discussion and debate and any idea that cannot survive such scutiny (with or without allies) is not worth haveing.

The 40K universe is not the optimistic good vs. evil place you appear to hope it to be. But that does not mean there are not aspects of it that don't correspond with your optimism. Take, for example, the Gaunts Ghosts novels. They have a very optimisitic out look with most of the darker aspects of 40K very mush in the background. There is a lot of background supporting optimistic factions of the Imperium. Theres inquisitors who believe they can learn from xenos, Inquisitors who believe that everything in the Imperium is going well and of course the Thorians who believe in the possibility of some form of the Emperoors return. Why not base your army on one of these factions? Accept they are swimming aganstg the tide but push their hopeful message because that reflects what you most like about 40K.

Even if you don't fully empaphise with a universe to get some enjoyment from it. For example, I once read some of the Sharpe novels. The napoleonic era does not reflect my outlook and know enough about history to know the simplistic morality and good vs. evil in them was bollocks. But i still got enjoyment out of them, in much the same way I gedt enjoyment out of some of the Black Librarys pulp novels.

I think one of the problems is that 40K (and Warhammer) reflect a very strong trdiaiont in British Sci Fi (which in turn reflects the state of British society) towards dystopias and anti-heroes. I'd argue this tradition goes back to H. G. Wells but can be found in most Brirtish Literature. However the best modern example is a comparison of characters produced by 2000AD with those produced by Marvel and DC. One has super heroes battleing for the greater good, often teaming up and forming annoying groups such as the league of justice. The other has anti heroes in a dystopia and the society they fight to save is often not really worth saveing. Look at judge Dredd for example. 40K is clearly in this British tradition and thats one of the reasons I love it. I personally would have no interest in another 'good vs. evil bringig order to the disordered' style of universe. 

Basically I'm saying if you like 40K don't walk away. But don't expect everyone to be agreeing with you either. In the long run you'll get a lot more out of these forums by embraceing the wide variety of opinions rather than hopeing everyone would just think along similair lines to you.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm going to be completely honest here. If you leave life will go on and nobody will care. So what if people disagree with you? I used to think that the Imperium had hope and that the good guys would win in the 40k universe. Then I learned there are no good guys and no bad guys. That caused me to love it even more. 

Don't make such a big deal about it. Just stop reading the forums if you want to leave and you will quickly disappear into the background. Also it's the internet so don't take everything you hear on here seriously because it will drive you insane.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

.... I am sorry. I was feeling even more sensitive that day than usual. I think from now on, I will still post here, but save most of my happy-shiney stuff for youtube comments.

Also, you should know that I actually have hardened. When I started out in 40k, I wanted the Imperium to be overthrown and replaced with the Republic of Man. So I HAVE gone a long ways.

/thread


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Platypus5 said:


> I don't know. People like Child of the Emperor and Galahad (No offense) make me feel rather unwelcome here..... I don't think they like me..


Nothing could be further from the truth. I can't speak for the other guy, but I said what I said because it was true, and it had nothing to do with any feelings against you. In fact, the only reason I bothered saying it is because I felt you deserved to know and understand *why* people are giving you the answers they have given you. I welcome all new players, and I do what I can to educate them so that they can understand and enjoy the game and stick around.

If everyone lied to you about how the setting works, how would that help you? It would only set you up to look foolish when you talk about it to someone with less tact and no desire to educate.

If I wanted you to feel unwelcome I'd have told you to grow up and fuck off, or simply ignored you.

I took the time to fully explain the way the background for the game works because I want you to understand it and stay with the game for the right reasons. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, but that's what I said and why.



Platypus5 said:


> I guess I am sensitive. What can you expect from a person who's main image is a platypus? I can hold an argument, but only if I have allies. And I can't seem to find any here....


The thing is, mate, is that you're approaching this from the wrong angle. This isn't an argument, you don't have allies because there aren't two sides to it. All we've done is explain how the setting actually works. There's no room for debate. We're not expressing our feelings about how we think it should be, we're telling you the facts. They really didn't leave much wiggle room as far as the mood of the setting is concerned. It is a grim, dark, hopeless, ugly place. People fight, die and bleed every second of every day for thousands of years and nothing gets better.

That's just how it is. We're not trying to persuade you into our way of thinking, we're just explaining that this is, black and white, to the letter, exactly how the thing is described. It's like asking if anyone else in the room thinks that elephants should be able to fly. When everyone in the room tells you that they shouldn't and why, it's not a debate and there are no allies to have, you're just being told the facts of the situation.



Platypus5 said:


> Good enough for me.
> 
> Sorry that it had to come to this. I will be back from time to time.


If you decide to leave the game because you don't like the darkness of the setting that's understandable and I wish you luck in future endeavors. Maybe warmachine is more your style, I hear it;s a good game.

If you're leaving because you feel ganged up on and unfairly treated then I apologize that you misunderstood us. As I said, you're trying to see this as a debate where there could be more than one answer and the whole thing is open to interpretation. We're seeing it as a chance to educate you as to what the right answer actually is, because there is only one.

It's in no way personal, we're just trying to tell you what the game is actually like.



Platypus5 said:


> .... I am sorry. I was feeling even more sensitive that day than usual. I think from now on, I will still post here, but save most of my happy-shiney stuff for youtube comments.
> 
> Also, you should know that I actually have hardened. When I started out in 40k, I wanted the Imperium to be overthrown and replaced with the Republic of Man. So I HAVE gone a long ways.
> 
> /thread


I'm glad to see you decided to tough it out. I really hope you take some time to read up on the setting, read the background in the codices, dig things up on the internet, checkout some of the books from the library. As you learn more and grow as a person and a player you'll gain a fuller understanding of the setting and your opinions will probably either change or cause you to leave the game because it isn't what you imagined.

The truth is there probably are people who share your views, but they are all new to the setting as well. The reason nobody here has agreed with you is because most of us are experienced players who know more about it. 

Anyway, I hope you do stick around and come to love the game for what it is.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, I will be bold to say this, but I still like the idea of an "endgame" scenario in which Empy is revived, forms an alliance with Tau & Eldar, and sets the stage for a final order v disorder battle. (Sort of like Warhammer Fantasy: Age of Reckoning) 

HIGHLY unlikely? Yes.
COMPLETELY and TOTALLY impossible in the given fluff? No. 

At the very least, you must admit that the ending has a very "ultimate" feeling to it.

What can I say? I am an American, after all. We do tend to be a bit....happy-go-lucky.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm an american, I've always been 'happy-go-fuck-off' 

Anyway, I really don;t see it happening unless huge changes happen to the background.

The eldar view every other species as a threat to their survival. If the tau are powerful enough to be worthy of teaming up with they;re powerful enough to be a threat and should be manipulated into wiping themselves out.

Eldar have (indirectly) started wars costing billions of human lives to save a couple thousald eldar.

Both of the Armageddon wars, for example, were set in motion by the Eldar when one of their farseers had a vision that if he didn't set those events in motion ten thousand eldar would die. So he did and ended up killing billions of humans and orks.

If they have reason to believe an alliance will benefit them in the short term they'll certainly consider it, but in the long term but would inevitably end up manipulating and/or betraying their allies the second it seems more eldar would be saved than lost doing it.

Likewise, the Tau would never truly consider an alliance that didn't eventually involve their allies being absorbed into the empire. They may team up short term for diplomatic gain, but the endgame for the tau is to absorb anyone they can into their society, and eldar would never, ever stand for it. It would come down to the alliance either breaking up or the tau instigating open war to try and assimilate whatever craftworld they allied themselves with.

And as long as the Empire is dominated by ignorant bigoted religious fanatics who hate all non=pure human life and view aliens as evil there's no chance of anything but short term military truce between them and any alien power.

So short of a limited campaign (like another black crusade or hive fleet emergence that puts all three races in danger) with temporary alliances for the sake of survival, I'll go out on a limb and say that long term alliances are completely impossible within the setting as it exists now.

If the imperium were destroyed and the eldar further decimated and weakened, and the tau gaining FTL travel I could see the tau expanding out and absorbing both races forcibly, but the idea of "Let's you and me team up and fight evil" is never gonna happen in the setting.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, I will be bold to say this, but I still like the idea of an "endgame" scenario in which Empy is revived, forms an alliance with Tau & Eldar, and sets the stage for a final order v disorder battle. (Sort of like Warhammer Fantasy: Age of Reckoning)


Yeah..... that will never happen. Same reason Gilligan couldn't get off the island, it would end the show.



Platypus5 said:


> HIGHLY unlikely? Yes.
> COMPLETELY and TOTALLY impossible in the given fluff? No.


Its 40k.... you could say a giant mutated winged monkey could fly out of some dudes ass and it wouldn't be impossible.



Platypus5 said:


> At the very least, you must admit that the ending has a very "ultimate" feeling to it.


 NO ENDING!



Platypus5 said:


> What can I say? I am an American, after all. We do tend to be a bit....happy-go-lucky.


No, only you are. :laugh:


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Hmmm, I'm a optimist in terms of humanity is superior and will always win in the end.

Anyway, one of the reasons I love warhammer 40k is that there isn't any permanent alliances. Another is that it's not the star wars vision of black and white sci fi, but instead several shades of grey. Let me promise you all one thing. The day the races become the forces of order and the forces of destruction is the day I sell my miniatures(and I just bought them).


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Forget shades of gray, 40k is made up of several different tones of black.

There's not enough lightness for there to be gray ;-)


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well look at the following:

-There are several plots to revive the emperor, none having been declared outright impossible. Of course the inquisition's gonna declare the efforts heretical: Minus the Thorians, it is in their interest for Empy not to b e revived.
-The Emperor, being logical, would see the need for said coalition.
-Eldar are also logical in a similar way: They also hold some admiration for the Tau (Eldrad Uthran quote)
-GW does seem to have grouped factions into "Order" and "Disorder." 
-Each of the "disorder" factions has something really powerful coming up, and the only way the "order" factions can even _hope_ to survive is by banding together.
-Many high level Imperial groups, especially the Illuminati, work closely with the Eldar, and the Imperium does occasionally work with aliens.
-The Tau are open to trading with other races, even if they don't join the Greater Good
-When all is said & done, GW has said that the Tau were designed to fundamentally be "altruistic and idealistic"
-Of course GW isn't going to put an end to its cash cow, but we can speculate.

And that is my argument for why my endgame idea isn't impossible.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah...... those arguments for the emperors resurrection have been declared heretical for the most part. 

Occasionally working wither xeno species doesn't even come close to full scale military alliance. 
I am sure someone else will explain why the rest of those won't happen but I have to go pick up relatives from the airport. lol


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Galahad said:


> Forget shades of gray, 40k is made up of several different tones of black.
> 
> There's not enough lightness for there to be gray ;-)


Oh, I don't know. the Orks I think provide enough comedic relief to provide a little light for the grey spectrum. Imperial Guard too. Gotta love that "Uplifting Primer'. :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> -There are several plots to revive the emperor, none having been declared outright impossible. Of course the inquisition's gonna declare the efforts heretical: Minus the Thorians, it is in their interest for Empy not to b e revived.


I bet some people believe that the Emperor is a Xenos, or that some Imperials worship him as the 'Sun-god'. Or that he doesn't exist altogether, doesn't make it true! Ultimately these theories have no credable proof, and its only natural and inevitable that many such theories have arisen surrounding a monotheistic religious cult.

But what is interesting is that many of these theories have been declared heretical and merely the work of Tzeentchian cultists.



Platypus5 said:


> -The Emperor, being logical, would see the need for said coalition.


Well thats a fairly big assumption, and can only be taken into account really if the Emperor was revived physically - which I maintain is impossible. The Xenos are Mankind's enemies, they help sustain Chaos and they prey on Mankind - its the same situation the Emperor/Early Imperium was in just before the Great Crusade, and what did the Emperor do then? Declared that all Xenos were filth and needed to be eradicated, the same would happen now.



Platypus5 said:


> -GW does seem to have grouped factions into "Order" and "Disorder."


That means nothing. By no means are they alliances.



Platypus5 said:


> -Each of the "disorder" factions has something really powerful coming up, and the only way the "order" factions can even _hope_ to survive is by banding together.


The Craftworld Eldar would not sacrifice a single Eldar life unless it benefited their Craftworld or Race in some way. Similarily the Tau Empire would only enter a sustainable alliance if they would retain their current 'First Among Equals' status that they maintain in their empire currently; not gonna happen.

And thats aside from the fact that the Tau Empire maintain a tiny and insignificant Empire on the Eastern Fringes, they have nothing to offer the galaxy-spanning Imperium.

Similarily the Craftworld Eldar's numbers are miniscule and barely significant. They can still hold their own when they need to, but every battle, every war, every campaign they engage in brings them a step closer to their inevitable extinction. There is not much they can offer the Imperium.

The Imperium both chooses and is forced to act alone on the galactic-stage. Xenophobia is innate within the human empire, a decree which came straight from their god himself. They would never accept an alliance with Xenos, it would be blasphemy of the highest kind. And if the Emperor did return physically (which I still hold is impossible), and did initiate some sort of alliance with any Xenos - it would cause at best a civil war within the Imperium. In fact if the Emperor returned physically at all, it would be the final nail in the coffin of the Imperium.



Platypus5 said:


> -Many high level Imperial groups, especially the Illuminati, work closely with the Eldar, and the Imperium does occasionally work with aliens.


I wouldn't really call the Illuminati a 'high-level Imperial group' - they're not sanctioned by the Imperium at all. Aside from that, temporary truces is about as far as Imperial/Eldar/Tau relations go, and as far as they will ever go.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I missed a few days, but what fun it was to catch up on this.

Over the weekend, I actually brought this up with a few friends of mine and asked what they thought about it. As you may imagine, there was little talk of hope. Except for how there was none.:laugh:

However, I have to reluctantly admit that I have come to enjoy looking for optimism (damn, I`m going soft) wherever I can find it. Unfortunately, the only ideas I can come up with are pretty far fetched. Most of them involve the Emperor`s death, where his spirit then leads an army of dead space marines and guard to conquer the four realms of chaos... How absurd is that? Sure Chaos might be defeated, but what about nids and necs?


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Before we delve further, I would like to state that while GW tries to be above it, the company does put in miracles and "heroic saves." Sebastian Thor, the Ultramarines fighting off Behemoth, and the end of the Mont'au, are examples of such curveballs and tributes to the traditional "knight in shining armor comes to save the day." 

Of course, from the statistical standpoint that is used to analyze situations, it is hard to predict when GW will decide to play that card again. For that reason, I am going to be content with "your endgame idea is highly unlikely" as opposed to "not only is it possible, but it is what will happen." Just not "Your endgame idea is simply impossible."


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I think it's pretty safe to say that Chaos = Evil. There might be some varying shades of that, but you can be rest assured that if Chaos showed up at your planet, no matter who you were (including other followers of chaos), you will probably be murdered, enslaved, or sacrificed. 

And yes, the Imperium does rank above this.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Before we delve further, I would like to state that while GW tries to be above it, the company does put in miracles and "heroic saves." Sebastian Thor, the Ultramarines fighting off Behemoth, and the end of the Mont'au, are examples of such curveballs and tributes to the traditional "knight in shining armor comes to save the day."


Those 'Heroic Saves' are plausable and do happen, but ultimately they mean nothing. The Ultramarines fighting off Behemoth you say? Won't really mean much when dozens of other Hive Fleets start emerging.. 



gally912 said:


> I think it's pretty safe to say that Chaos = Evil. There might be some varying shades of that, but you can be rest assured that if Chaos showed up at your planet, no matter who you were (including other followers of chaos), you will probably be murdered, enslaved, or sacrificed.


How does that make Chaos evil?


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Those 'Heroic Saves' are plausable and do happen, but ultimately they mean nothing. The Ultramarines fighting off Behemoth you say? Won't really mean much when dozens of other Hive Fleets start emerging..


If heroic saves don't matter, then that implies Sebastian Thor didn't save the Imperium. Or that the Tau would have survived without the Ethereals.

And going back to an earlier point, the reason I think the Emperor would not go to war against the Tau and Eldar is that things _aren't_ the way they were during the Great Crusade. Now, with Chaos developing a new champion, (abbadon) the Necrons awakening, and the 'Nids arriving, things are different. And by this point, the Tau would have grown significantly. So, I think the Emperor would want at least a temporary alliance.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> If heroic saves don't matter, then that implies Sebastian Thor didn't save the Imperium. Or that the Tau would have survived without the Ethereals.


What I meant was that *ultimately* they don't matter. In the end they won't have made a difference. The coming of the Ethereals enabled the emergence of the Tau Empire, but in the end that won't mean anything when the Tau Empire is reduced to rubble.



Platypus5 said:


> And going back to an earlier point, the reason I think the Emperor would not go to war against the Tau and Eldar is that things _aren't_ the way they were during the Great Crusade. Now, with Chaos developing a new champion, (abbadon) the Necrons awakening, and the 'Nids arriving, things are different. And by this point, the Tau would have grown significantly. So, I think the Emperor would want at least a temporary alliance.


This isn't necessarily my personal view but its arguable that humanity was in a worst position during the Age of Strife than it is in M41. For thousands of years Humanity had been preyed upon by Daemons and Xenos, the galactic human federations had been reduced to rubble and mankind as a species was on the verge of extinction. The primary difference between then and M41 is that humanity was not unitied, organised (in a loose sense of the word) and protected by the remnants of the Emperor's Imperium (Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Mechanicus etc). During the Age of Strife, it was fractured, leaderless and preyed upon. But following the Unification Wars, the Emperor didn't enter an alliance with any Xenos (even passive or friendly species), despite Humanity being in an unprecedentedly weak and unstable situation (The Imperium at this point didn't even fully control the Sol System). He decreed that all Xenos were filth and needed to be eradicated, and in doing so conquered larger swathes of the Galaxy.

Do you think that if he returned now, he would suddenly renounce his xenophobia and attempt to bargain or ally with xenos? Even though this is not what he did following the Unification Wars when Humanity was in an equally desperate situation.

And anyway, thats all aside from the fact that the Emperor attempting to ally with xenos would quite simply cause a civil war within the Imperium. In fact his mere return would cause at best a civil war.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Those 'Heroic Saves' are plausable and do happen, but ultimately they mean nothing. The Ultramarines fighting off Behemoth you say? Won't really mean much when dozens of other Hive Fleets start emerging..


Well, at least we have an awesome buffer between us and most of those hive fleets.. Thank you Tau.k:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How does that make Chaos evil?


Since evil is defined by humanity, and humanity tends to agree that those types of things are evil, then that makes it evil. Hmm, Evil I suppose would be different for other alien races(even other human civilizations), but since we make the definition of evil, if someone says something is evil. then it is.

Besides, I'm sure he meant the faction of chaos, not the swirling vortex of bad emotions that is the Immaterium. Which I believe is Neutral.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SteelSpectre said:


> Since evil is defined by humanity, and humanity tends to agree that those types of things are evil, then that makes it evil. Hmm, Evil I suppose would be different for other alien races(even other human civilizations), but since we make the definition of evil, if someone says something is evil. then it is.


And that is where the problem arises. If 'evil' is defined by the individual, then it is entirely subjective, and essentially meaningless.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And that is where the problem arises. If 'evil' is defined by the individual, then it is entirely subjective, and essentially meaningless.


Oh, I don't know about that. There can be reason and logic behind a person who names something as evil. A person who enjoys destroying personal property and killing for the sake of killing, I would say a person would have justification in calling that evil. 

Also, I have never met a person who didn't have a, at least vague, understanding of the word evil. Thus, evil has a meaning among members of the same civilization. Only when speaking to people from either another race(or species in terms of 40k), does the word evil lose its meaning.

Still, this is just my opinion.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm an optimist. I believe the Emperor will slay Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle with all the warriors who have fallen in His name by His side at the end of time. Coincidentally, I also believe Ynnead, the Eldar God of Death, will rise once all the Eldar join the Infinity Circuit and kill Slaanesh. I figure one redemption prophecy has to be true, got a 50-50 shot for it to be one or the other.

Since GW is likely not going to end the timeline of 40k anytime soon, no, I'm not really that optimistic. There is only war, and that being the case, there are too many enemies for any one power to become truly dominant.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Davidicus 40k said:


> I'm an optimist. I believe the Emperor will slay Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle with all the warriors who have fallen in His name by His side at the end of time. Coincidentally, I also believe Ynnead, the Eldar God of Death, will rise once all the Eldar join the Infinity Circuit and kill Slaanesh. I figure one redemption prophecy has to be true, got a 50-50 shot for it to be one or the other.
> 
> Since GW is likely not going to end the timeline of 40k anytime soon, no, I'm not really that optimistic. There is only war, and that being the case, there are too many enemies for any one power to become truly dominant.


I believe in the neverending timeline as well. Although, next expansion will be called "Endgame" and feature all the greatest beings of all the races. Emperor, Void-Dragon, Cegorach, personification of Gork, Mork, or both, etc...

This of course will not be the end, just makes a good name for an expansion.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Who says the Emperor is logical and fluffy and a good guy at heart?

This is the guy who created a race of genetically engineered supersoldiers to serve him with absolute loyalty so he could destroy all aliens, purge the galaxy of all but the purest forms of humanity and try to set himself up as God so he can rule the universe. Remember, all the crap we hear about him being good and noble comes from his worshipers. Sure, he 'liberated' a lot of human worlds during the crusade...liberated them right into his personal empire.

Sure, the current rulers of the imperium may be off track as to his priginal message and interested in preserving their power and beliefs, but that doesn;t mean ultra-hitler is gonna get off rhe golden toilet some day and say "Hey guys, chill out, those space elves and anime guys are cool, let's team up and kill monsters and stuff!"

Even if the emperor did come back, and even if the galaxy-dominating master race-creating, self-declared god of mankind was a nice and fair minded guy at heart, I don't think ten thousand years of agonizing living death spent absorbing the life energy of untold billions of innocent human psykers is going to be good for the man's psyche. 

Seriously, the dude has survived on human sacrifice for ten thousand years. That totally reads like a good guy


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Oh the emperor wasn't exactly nice, but do you think Humanity as a whole would have survived at all if it wasnt united under a common banner? 

Secondly, Im pretty sure the Emperor specifically did not set himself up as a "God", IIRC, he was totally against the concept of religion.

EDIT: Which is why its so full of Irony


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gally912 said:


> Oh the emperor wasn't exactly nice, but do you think Humanity as a whole would have survived at all if it wasnt united under a common banner?


To quote the priest Uriah, 'Aye, and maybe we'd have been better off that way'.



gally912 said:


> Secondly, Im pretty sure the Emperor specifically did not set himself up as a "God", IIRC, he was totally against the concept of religion.


Well that was what seems to be the case. We don't know what the Emperor's true intentions were though.


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## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm an optimist cause the hive mind tells me that "every little thing. Is gonna be alrigh'"

Thus I think Tyranids are the most optimistic, the hive mind tells them that their arm hasnt been cut off and they believe it, in fact in most cases they grow a new one.

Also Necrons are optimistic, in an indifferent kind of way.

Dark Eldar are optimistic, they are living la viva loca, all they have to worry about is space scurvy.

Daemons are optimistic with the satisfactory knowledge that if they die they just end up in the warp again.

And my guardsmen are optimistic cause they are russian, If they arent then the comissar shoots them. They cry at night with a joyful smile.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

gally912 said:


> Oh the emperor wasn't exactly nice, but do you think Humanity as a whole would have survived at all if it wasnt united under a common banner?


Wanting your subjects united under your rule does not rule out being evil and insane.

And again, ten thousand years of human sacrifice and soul-jarring torture starting within minutes of having to utterly derstroy his most beloved creation.

His odds of being sane and rational *now* can be expressed with a decimal point and a ton of zeros behind it



> Secondly, Im pretty sure the Emperor specifically did not set himself up as a "God", IIRC, he was totally against the concept of religion.
> 
> EDIT: Which is why its so full of Irony


Assuming that's how he really felt, he still set himself up as absolute ruler of humanity and ended up beog god as a side effect. Still nothing pointing away from being an evil psycho. And after ten thousand years of being god, his opinions may have changed.

In any event, my point remains that resurrecting the emperor is not going to bring back a logiclal, wise and rational voice of sanity...it's going to unleash a tortured psycho of a living god. Chances are he;s not gonna rush to be buddy buddy with the filthy xenos scum he ordered eradicated for the good of humanity during the crusade.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Karnox said:


> I'm an optimist cause the hive mind tells me that "every little thing. Is gonna be alrigh'"
> 
> Thus I think Tyranids are the most optimistic, the hive mind tells them that their arm hasnt been cut off and they believe it, in fact in most cases they grow a new one.
> 
> ...


Hm..I thought that if anyone in 40K was going to be optimistic it would be the Orks. Heck the more fighting for them the happier they are (and the bigger they get) and the 41st Millenium is practically a banquet of battle for them. Besides they seem to enjoy that few races seem to be able to match, they don't fear death and have fun killin' stuff. 

Tyranids and Necrons seem.....unlikely to say the least, most of all since most Nids can only behave instinctually without the Hive Mind, and the Hive Mind itself doesn't seem to give any form of emotion beyond NOMNOMNOMing things, whereas Necrons essentially don't have minds of their own anymore, besides Necron Lords but their will/personality has all but turned into a mindless servant of the C'tan.


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## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

I knew I left someone out. Was meant to add them in. 
Well I mean would that not mean that the hive mind would be optimistic, since there is so many planets to omnomnom, thus making tyranids optimistic, and tyranids are almost always under the hive mind, its only in battle when the connection is lost, but in their day to day lives they are always either on a vessel or close to a synapse creatures. In fact.. what does a nid ship look like? Just a really big Harpy?

And by necrons I just meant C'tan. I mean they have plenty of Suns to eat and there are only two of them left, so I think they are both confident they can win over the other (my bets on the nightbringer) Of course the warriors are robots, but I'm sure they have "livin' in the sunlight, lovin' in the moonlight" on repeat inside their heads.
Actually I just realized how much that song fits them XD


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## Trihahalos (May 29, 2010)

Yeap the Orkz are the ULTIMATE optimists in the game! They are also the happiest race by far! They have fun fighting and live in a galaxy consumed by war, they are not afraid of death, they do not need much to live and they are SURE that the APORKALYPSE will come some day. And since all the orkz believe it, it just might happen. I mean "red 'unz go fasta!". The GW actually created them with that in mind since it wanted a fun race in order to attract players that disliked the overly grim and gritty feeling of the game. The Tau are also part of that GW strategy even today because the changes in their profile only made them a bit more "eeevil" but not one bit less optimistic. More cautious, maybe but not one bit less optimistic.


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## Keen4e (Apr 19, 2010)

Now here is my optimism:
The God Emperor wakes up leads His armies and exterminates all the xenos vermin including the Tau  . Then when all is over humans can return to everyday life.
As you can see it's not necessary to be a tau fan to be an optimist. ;-)
I have almost decided to like tau, but then I've learned about their cast system and I find it terribly inefficient. I don't mind their strict hierarchy, but I dislike the fact that even a guy who could become a skilled warrior must stay in the Earth cast, because of his birth.If there wasn't this predestination the Tau ideology would quite fit me.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Wanting your subjects united under your rule does not rule out being evil and insane.
> 
> And again, ten thousand years of human sacrifice and soul-jarring torture starting within minutes of having to utterly derstroy his most beloved creation.
> 
> ...


Oh, of course I agree with you. I just dont disassociate "purging the xenos" with "good intentions."


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