# space marine tactics vs orks (long post!)



## emperordee

hi all!
long time lurker, first time poster!
me and a few friends are just getting back into 40k, after a long time away!
(about 12 years!!:shok
this weekend, i'll be going up against my friends orks, and im wondering what tactics i should adopt?
model wise, we got a copy of AoBR each, and traded models,
so i've got 11 termies (1 came free with white dwarf), 2 tac squads, 2 captin models (which i can proxy as any hq), 2 dreads, a chaos shok landraider and rhino (from a mate who wants to get back into painting, but not so much the gaming).
i also bought a battle force box set, but none of the models are assembled, let alone painted!!!
i will post an army list in the appropriate section when i've assembled (and painted!) them, but for now i'm more concerend with what tactics i should adopt?
my opponent will have (roughly) 50 boys, 6 deffkopters, 11 nobz (1 from WD), ghazghull, 3 meganobz, a truk, 10 lootas and some other stuff i cant remember!!:biggrin:
it's gonna be 1500 pts, and since it's a friendly game to us get up to speed, we're not too strict on wysiwyg. (i can proxy anything, WITHIN REASON!!:biggrin
im thinking of maybe trying out vulkan (i know, i know, really original!),
and wondered if he's worth the points?
sorry about the long ramble, but any advice from all you veterans, will be greatly appraciated!!
thanks in advance,
dave


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## emperordee

no-one have any pointers for me?
oh well!
i'll just have to wing it then!!:grin:
the plan will probably be try and go second and deploy in one corner of the board.
then i'll try and pick his army off bit by bit! (well, that's the plan anyway!!! lol)
is this recomended or not?
should i deep strike the termies or start them on the board?
they're a LOT of points to potentially miss some/most of the game. 
im thinking of buying a drop pod (not in time for this game though).
is one of any use? (prob for a dread).
thanks in advance,
dave


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## Luthien Kess

No reply in 1 hour 10 minutes and you're impatient... 

Personally I haven't been able to beat orks as space marines yet, but if you could possibly get a whirlwind look-a-like to take out some of the boyz, you'd be much better off (provided you can keep it nice and safe from lootas)

I've personally have had bad experiences with deep strike, so I'd advise against it, particularly if the rest of your plan involves shooting as much as you can while he runs at you. Stranded Terminators fighting Ghaz might not go well, (or might go very well depending on the dice)

Again, I haven't had much luck against orks, so take this with a grain of salt, and listen to any other posts more than mine. :biggrin:


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## emperordee

sorry to seem impaient (but i am!!:laugh
thanks for the reply!
im not sure if we have anything i could use (except maybe the rhino, and i was gonna use that as.....a rhino!)
i've not had ANY luck with said termies!
if i have to roll enough dice for saves, then chance, coupled with my APPALING luck, means they tend not to last too long!
(i realise that what i call "appaling luck" could/should be translated to "shockingly bad deployment/placement!!)
other than the whirlwind, what have you found to be the best way to deal with ghaz?
shoot, assault or some tricksy combination of both?
anyway, sorry to seem impatiant, but the feedback is appreciated!
thanks again,
dave


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## Calamari

Lots and lots of dakka. He doesn't have any vehicles (well, 1 Trukk but that might as well be made of paper). Could you maybe proxy a Predator Destructor? As above don't DS your Terminators becasue they will get picked on and hurt lol.

Apart from that there is a lot of winging involved lol.


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## VictorLazarus

Most of the time I fight Orks I either beat them loosing about 3 marines of loose very very badly. You really need to hit them with all your shooting but don't be afraid of combat because even though Orks are great in combat if you charge them they will be alot weaker because they won't get their furious charge and all you need to look out for are power claws.

Orks don't have alot that can take out marines in shooting so he'll almost certainly dash towards you - your golden time is rapid fire so make sure you get that. I'd send the terminators at the nobs - if he hasn't many power claws you should easily have that battle. Send the dreads at the boyz because they can tie them up very well, you'll only kill like 2 a turn but if there's no power claw (or it misses) you'll have the squad (up to 30 orks) in a useless position.

MVL.


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## emperordee

thanks victor! (and calamari!)
sounds like a plan is starting to form.
i guess the termies start on the board and try to engage the nobz, while the dreads try to hold up the boyz!k:
what heay weapons do you guys load your tac squads with?
im thinking maybe heavy bolters?
(im deffinatly having the free flamers!!)
and what (if any) heavy weapons for the termies?
my bad dice rolling abilities (or lack of skill) means when i've used assault cannons, they dont seem to hit (or wound!) much!!
i was thinking about using heavy flamers (in conjunction with vulkan), to try and roast those green-skins!!:victory:
i've seen a few lists with vulkan, is the geneal concensus that he's worth his points?
i'm also thinking about trying out the 'raider as a crusader.
are they better than the vanilla rider against orks? (more anti-infantry)
or should i try the redeemer? 
none of them really benefit from vulkans chapter tactics, unless i take the multi-melta.
(which i will if i've got the spare points!)
again, thanks for all the feed-back, it's already helped a LOT!!
cheers dave


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## Tim/Steve

Whirlwinds and flamers... both are must haves for fighting orks. 
If you can get 3 whirlwinds and 2-3 small assault squads with 2 flamers in each you'll toast him easily. If you dont have any of that you'll struggle (marines dont do well vs orks generally).

Best I can recommend- drop the terminators, they really dont do well vs orks (you cant 30 saves a full boys unit would make you take). You want as many small units in the board as you can get. Orks are seriously beefy but normally have a very low unit count- if they have 4 units and you have 12 it'll take them 3 turns of assault even to get into all of them (assuming they win everything in site and cant multi-charge).
You want to abuse the orks low initiative, you hit at I4 so every model in your army has the chance to take out an orc or 2 beforehe ever gets hit. Taking a unit of termies is joy to orcs, they get to kill them for free- you'll be lucky if even 1 termy survives to attack back in a basic unit of 5- if you have to take them keep them at a 10 man unit.

Set up in a corner and concentrate all fire on units comming straight accross the table at you. When a unit gets under 10 models leave it alone and move onto the next target (its no longer fearless, if it fails its Ld test then its running and cant rally and you are higher I so will strike first in combat knocking the nunbers even lower). I would put 2 dreads on the flank and charge them both into a large unit of boys (give them heavy flamers just to up the damage). They are unlikely to win but the PK nob (assuming your opponent isnt a noob he'll have one) can only hit 1 a turn and it should take him an average of 9 turns to destroy both (so thats a flank both stalled AND blocked all units behind).
MOST IMPORTANT THING- you must get the charge on the orcs. Dont be tempted to rapid fire (either move away out of Waaagh assault range or charge in). Orks are 50% less effective off the charge and if you knocked the unit down to 10-15 orks with your shooting you should win with a full unit of marines


EDIT- just seen your last post- crusader is best LR vs orks, redeemer's AP3 flamers are just too good on orcs. As for termy heavy weapons I would say go with teh assault cannons, heavy flamers are unliky to get the chance to fire (orks will fear them- the heavy flamers.. not so much the termies- so will wait till the waargh to close)


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## emperordee

hi tim!
thanks for your reply!
it's got me thinking.......(que joke about my head hurting!)
my (limited) experience with termies is that they die a bit quick,
but i tend to blame bad luck (instead of a lack of skill!!)
in regards to your advice,
i have bought a battleforce, but i havn't assembled any of the models yet,
and i think it might be a bridge too far to ask if my termies could "count as" assault marines!
(but you never know 'till you try!:wink
i probably will go with the crusader, as you've basically said what i was thinking, but it's nice for someone else (who knows what they're talking about!) to confirm it!
i'm throwing some rep your way, as you have given me some great ideas,
even if i cant work with them (model wise) this weekend!
(but i WILL try to adopt the tactics you've suggested) 
when i post a list of the models i'm looking to collect as my ideal army, i'll deffinatly try and incorporate those ideas (assault squads with flamers!!)
thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply,
and if any one has ny different ideas, i'd love to hear them.
i do realise that i'm kind of saying "i'm gonna do this anyway",
but at the moment it's purely because while im proxy-ing enough models to already qualify as "taking the piss", i dont want to take the piss TOO much!!
cheers, dave


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## Someguy

Some stuff:

Terminators are fine against orks. Give them cyclone missile launchers and spam the orks with frag missiles. Charge if you want. Don't throw them at the enemy and certainly don't deep strike. Shoot stuff and fight in cc if it's the correct option.

A flamer is probably the only logical option for a special weapon against orks, but to get much use out of it you need a rhino. You can either send a whole unit in the rhino or have half hang back with the heavy weapon. If you do this, make sure that you aren't just throwing your squad away to burn half a dozen orks and making no meaningful difference.

Missile launchers are by far the best of the free heavy weapons for tactical squads. I don't care what you are up against, it is simply a better gun than a heavy bolter. It kills boyz units, tanks (certainly trukks) and instant kills nobz.

Your HQ barely matters at all. If I was going to pick one for fighting orks it would be pedro kantor, because he gives every one of your guys within 12" an extra attack. That makes even tactical marines vaguely capable, and terminators extremely scary. He tends to fit best in the gun line army that you have if you end up with a bunch of marine infantry. Vulcan is not worth his points here really, though he is excellent if you can build an army around him (with thunder hammers, meltas and flamers in large amounts).

On dreads I like plasma cannons and heavy flamers. Again, this is a good armament for all comers. Try to get your dreads or termies stuck into his nobz mobs, where they will cause great damage.

Tactically there are two major points to remember:

Firstly, things will go wrong and you are going to get charged. Expect to fight orks and to lose guys doing it. Be ready with a counter punch. You can leave a cheap squad, maybe just 5 guys with bolters, for the orks to charge at and beat up. When the combat is over you step up with flamers, rapid fire and maybe a charge from some of your own stuff.

Secondly, play the mission. Do play a mission by the way, they make the game a lot more interesting than just a random scrap. Look at what you need to do to win the mission, not just to kill things. If you need to sacrifice some termies, a dread or your HQ to protect a tactical squad, and therefore grab an objective and win the game, then do whatever it takes.

Kind of a third thing: kill his lootas as a priority. A couple of cyclones sending frag missiles their way tends to spoil things for them. Fail to do this, and you will join the many, many people who end up whining that orks have a way shootier unit than they themselves have access to, even though orks aren't supposed to be much good at shooting.

Good luck. Orks are a savage army right now and marines aren't. It's not easy but it can be done.


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## SpacedGhost

I think Tim/Steve, Someguy, and the others touched on some great points. Rather than say "what he said," and be done with it, I'll sort of nod along with the points brought up that I feel are worth stressing.

Loose as much firepower as you can into the orks, and deprive as many of their squads of fearless as you can (get them below ten). If you've cut them down enough with shooting, you won't have trouble crushing them with your own assault. So don't be afraid to assault the orks if you get to that point. You're striking at I4, which is very important if the CC is imminent with orks. I've had a humble squad of 5 Assault Marines take down 30 Boyz. I popped their trukk with an Attack Bike, shot up the orks that fell out with a tact squad, and assaulted their flank with a 5-man assault squad. It was a gutsy move putting 5-Assault Marines against the remaining 18 boyz, but it paid off. It helps illustrate the importance of what SM working together can accomplish. As Tim/Steve said, they're going to have a low unit count... try to have more than them to keep the hurt coming from multiple points. Make sure each of your units is supported by another and don't spread yourself too thin.

As much as I do like the idea of terminators with Lightning Claws not being able to perform a sweeping advance seems rather self defeating of an assault squad. I personally have never had very much success with them. I've always found that elite FOC slot better spent on other things. Especially now since you 'nilla SM have Sternguard. Which brings me to a question you asked earlier. You mentioned wanting to purchase a Drop Pod. The Drop Pod dred is a great combo. You basically get to put that dred wherever it's needed most. Where I find the Drop Pod most amazing though is with a unit of Sternguard. I'm not saying necessarily for orks, but just in general if you're wanting to purchase a drop pod for the future I wouldn't say no, and get some Sternguard to go with it. For the ork problem add some combi-flamers to the squad and light them up. Don't be afraid to ever assault in with the sternguard. They're just as hardy as any SM, and have base 2 attacks. (And while you're getting some Sternguard... you might as well get Pedro too! Sorry... got sidetracked).

Anyway back on topic. Tim/Steve said the most important thing is to get the charge on the orks. I couldn't agree more. The ork assault can be quite scary with a full strength unit, but if you've been concentrating your fire correctly they won't make it to you in full strength. Your higher initiative, and power armor can go a long way in an assault you initiate on a half strength ork mob.

As for heavy weapons, I've always liked the humble ML. I tend to build my armies in a "take-all-comers" fashion though. Within my local meta I can pretty much expect to face any army on any given day at the local shop, and within my house I can expect to face: orks, eldar, dark eldar, IG, Sisters, or Necrons. (4 40k players under one roof, with a gaming table recently built on the back porch, and some play multiple armies...). My friend's 'nids are a phone call away. (<-- The only army my Blood Angels actually don't like to Assault). For orks I tend to like your standard Heavy Bolter. I seem to get more wounds out of them than a ML against orks, though the extra utility of the krak missile may come in handy against your opponent's deffkopters, nobz, etc. Either way I like to keep my weapons upgrades cheap for my Tacts to afford upgrades elsewhere, and you bastard 'nilla marines get your choice of three free heavy weapons. For terminators I agree that Assault Cannons are where it's at... but I'm a sucker for assault cannons in general. (Though Someguy is probably more correct in suggesting the Cyclone Missile launcher against orks.)

I love flamers for a number of reasons, but you pretty much have to have it attached to a mobile platform of sorts to make it useful. I.E. an Assault Squad, or in a Rhino. With the Rhino you have to be careful not to strand a lone 5 or 10 Tactical Marines, and with the Assault Squad you're pretty much using it to lead into your own personal assault with what I call a clean up squad. In theory you soften up the orks with some shooting, used your superior mobility to ensure you get the assault and not them, and then charge in with a flame template to help thin the ranks of orks that much more before you level your higher initiative attacks against the remaining boyz. As your army appears now though, I'd almost advise against flamers for your tactical squads... if they weren't free.

Edit: Started writing this post prior to Someguy's response. Didn't want to leave him out.


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## Dessel_Ordo

If you're gonna run a pod-dread combo against orks, I would say take an Ironclad w/HF and either the standard hammer if you're tight for points, or give it a hurricane bolter if you can stomach the points.

I heartilly agree on cyclones for your termies, and avoiding DS as a general rule with them (its burned me to often, throwing them in a LR is a better choice if you can fit one in).

If you go sternguard with combiflamers, take a librarian with Gate and something else. The ability to pop 24", have the front of the circle torch them, and the back fire Kraken(?) (cover ignoring shots) will royally pork an ork mob.

A decent (and potentially dirt cheap) anti-horde/light armor unit is a 7 man Dev squad with 4 ML (I've had that unit halve mobz/broods in a single volley on multiple occaisions).

If you can help it, deploy your heavy weapons as elevated as possible. With how large ork mobs can get, they have a fairly easy time getting cover saves from each other, and i have always found that the easiest way to deny these saves is firing from elevation (I love it when TLOS works to my advantage  )


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## rdlb

I don't know how Orks deal with assaulting into cover (do they have something like frags?) but I put my terminators in a piece of cover when playing demons and I get to shoot them and we both strike at initiative 1, so if you want to play terminators, put them in the bushes and the orks will strike at initiative 1 also.


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## Tim/Steve

As an additional comment to that- someguy suggests a counter punch with a flamer unit after sacrificing a small useless unit- I find the perfect thing to do this with is a land speeder tornado with 2 heavy flamers (it can only shoot both if you move 6" but it works great if you sit it behind a unit and wait for them to die (needs to be a small unit though or they'll stay locked in combat)- try to keep it behind some cover though, it'll be a bullett magnet for a lot of long range shooting (but at 60pts its fine if it dies keeping fire away from something more valuable).

Dont worry about ignore much/all of our advice. If you havent got the models then you cant really use these combos... they are just hints and pointers really. Everyone comes up with their own natural builds eventually and while all marine armies that do well agaist orcs have a 'samey' feel peoples natural bias scew them in different directions (eg I love Dreads but hate termies- for 6 termies and a heavy weapon, or indeed just 4 Space Wolf termies I can get 2 pimped out dreadnaghts... I know which I want out of that).


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## Someguy

A lot of the suggestions so far have been for "one shot" tactics like drop podding sternguard and the like. I don't actually agree with that at all.

To beat orks you have to kill tons of them. That means you have to start straight away and keep on killing them. A unit that falls down from the sky, kills around its own value of orks *if* everything works properly and then dies is not really all that helpful.

My advice is to go for boots, and more importantly guns, on the ground on turn one. Have those guns shoot orks dead. It may not sound like the most sophisticated strategy, but there is a discipline to making a list with maximised firepower taken over tricks and toys.

Terminators and dreads fit well into this strategy because they get to shoot a lot and assault afterwards, so they are always doing something. A cyclone termie is now dramatically better than an assault cannon vs hordes by the way, because he puts down two blasts and fires his storm bolter.

A drop pod is kind of ok. The problem is that it shows up on turn one when all the orks are in their deployment zone and undamaged. You hurt one unit, probably quite badly, but then you are able to be charged by a load of other stuff. You may even accellerate some orks forwards if they get to move, charge and consolidate. Overall I don't think it's worth it.

Also it's fine to say that you want to charge orks rather than have them charge you, but in practice it doesn't happen much. Orks have trukks to charge out of and waagh to give them fleet, so they usually get the first charge. Even if you do get to charge one unit, another one then charges you. It's often better to have one or two of their units waagh forwards and charge, seperating them from the guys behind, and then wipe out those units with your counter-punch.

Also remember that you can move backwards. If you are looking at 5 guys firing their bolters at 30 orks and then getting charged, that obviously isn't in your favour. Just run away and keep your unit for the next turn.

Pedro rocks by the way. Stand him with a tactical combat squad with a heavy weapon and have him drop his orbital bombardment on something tasty, preferably the nobz mob or a big unit of boyz. Then have him wander around behind people who are fighting (never actually fighting himself) and he will dramatically improve your odds in combat.


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## Ferik

I find Castling and then bottlenecking if terrian allows or Rhino wall which will limit their numbers and force them together so your templates will hit more Orks and as they advance you will be killing their vehicles which will slow them up more as well as bottle them up as well this tactic works well more often than not, I have used this tactic with my Ultramarines army to great success (have yet to loose to Orks).

Overall though pump as much fire power as you can into them as you can and templates are your friend.

Also on a side note I have found Honour Guard extreamly good at taking out mobs as well, Lightning Claw Termies would probably do well also (mind you, you need to assault them first otherwise its an overwhelming amount of attacks)


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## emperordee

wow!!:shok:
thanks guys for all the replys!
i've just got in from work and i cant believe all the great advice!
i really like all the different angles, it's given me a lot to ponder,
but not much time to act!

first off, thanks someguy, my AoBR tac squads are modeled with ml, so it makes sense to just use them that way!
(that and the fact that you and spacedghost suggest it!)
i REALLY like what you said about more boots on the ground, so i'm wondering if i've got the time to try and assemble at least SOME of my battle force.
i SUCK at painting (and it takes me AGES!!), so there's practically NO chance of them being painted in time!
but since it's just a friendly game, i dont think my friends will mind! (i hope!)

as for the hq, as you (quite rightly) say, i'll be trying out a gun line style army, i may use pedro,
he's cheaper than vulkan, and since i'm proxying one of the captins i've got, it's all the same, model-wise!
also thanks for the more general tactics!
like you said, some of the "one shot" tactics are great, but like i said i dont want to take the piss with the "counts as" (im using chaos vehicles, as it is!!:shok

thanks aswell spacedghost, i'm glad you posted!
the more people that say the same thing, just adds weight to the argument!!!
i might try and get that 5-man assault squad together, (if i dont have time, they'll be ready for the next battle!!:victory
i agree with you about keeping the tac squads cheap, i just wish i had more!!

finally, thanks again steve/tim.
i am a bit concious of asking everyone's advice, and then going |"i'm just gonna do THIS anyway"!


i am taking it all on board and when i come to purchace the models i want to expand beyond what i already own, i'll deffinatly be re-reading this post and asking for more advice!! (which i may/may not ignore!!)
someguy suggests cyclones for the termies, i think i'll take his advice!

anyway, sorry again for the ramble, but thanks to everyone for replying, and if there is any more advice (the same ideas or different opinions), i'd love to hear it!

thanks again, davek:


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## Terminator001

If playing as Black Reach Orks has taught me anything,it's shoot them from a range to reduce their numbers and then charge.:victory:


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## spanner94ezekiel

Ever considered Alpha force scouts in a storm to tie up medium boyz mobs or lootaz - keep them busy for a turn or two and maybe contest an objective.
Then spam LRs as Orks have pitiful anti-AV14 (whirles are OK, but have a tendency to underperform)
elites wise I say sternguards and dreads in pods. Sterns work well with lysander or pedro either in razors or drop pods
failing that, dread spam with MotF is a good idea.
Fast attack isn't much use against orks unless you're looking at playing a bike army, because land speeders are just loota fodder.
Troops, just spam basic tacticals (maybe in pods or rhinos to upset your opponents game plan?)

Final point - Target saturation ftw!


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