# CSM Fast attack... Tabu?



## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

Hey guys I'm back to haunt and annoy you again.

This time on the topic and tactics of CSM fast attack.
While the Choice is limited to Bikes and Raptors, it seems people avoid these at all costs. and I'l like to know why.

First of let's be honest, I'm more of a friendly player than a competetive, that said, I still like winning. My army so far is compromised of bits and pieces that can only be described as Chaos Undivided.

I'm very aware that many Chaos players puts their main focus on their troop choices and heavy support. And the Daemon Princes of course. But I feel like we are wasting away those 3 Fast attack slots.

So I'd like to hear some Pros and cons on the CSM fast attacks. Specially the Raptors who seems to be the biggest Tabu.

In my opinion, Raptors seem like fast moving people, wielding flamers where they are most needed. Their speed and all round Marine awesomeness makes them good Anti-horde, -light and anti-medium armour attackers. They are effective counter assaulters against Orks, though against thougher enemies they are only an expensice tarpit.
Other good things, they can antitank with Meltas and powerfist.
All mariens will be worth double their cost in CC with a Mark of Khorne.
They can escort a Daemon Prince, not necessarily in a unit, but simply staying close to the Daemon Prince.
And I like to Deepstrike things...

The Sheer concept of Raptors makes them awesome. and the name makes even 4chan shiver... Unrelated...
And this song is awesome, and reminds me of Raptors: (Ensiferum - Deathbringer from the sky... Think about raptors, they are awesome by concept at least)






About Bikes, they are extremely fast, and get their strenghts from the "Bike" rules. Though I don't have much more to say here.


Fellow heretics. Lay it upon me, why do we not use Fast attackers?


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

Pzycho Leech said:


> Bikes, they are extremely fast, and get their strenghts from the "Bike" rules. Though I don't have much more to say here.


I think bikes are a real bitch if used right, T 5 is hard, mate of mine threw on a MoN and T 6 was a bitch to take down. However for them to be worth it five seems to be the magic number. Three is to few and get slammed in assaults but five can hang on and do some damage. 

They make good tank hunters cause of the turbo boost inv save. Skiled rider helps avoid getting destroyed running through cover and difficult terrain so they can take the road less travelled to get to their target. Bikes are a good choice and just need to be fielded with some thought.

Thats what I think anyway....


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

Medic Marine said:


> I think bikes are a real bitch if used right, T 5 is hard, mate of mine threw on a MoN and T 6 was a bitch to take down. However for them to be worth it five seems to be the magic number. Three is to few and get slammed in assaults but five can hang on and do some damage.
> 
> They make good tank hunters cause of the turbo boost inv save. Skiled rider helps avoid getting destroyed running through cover and difficult terrain so they can take the road less travelled to get to their target. Bikes are a good choice and just need to be fielded with some thought.
> 
> Thats what I think anyway....



I had considered the same thing about the MoN.

Further more, they can serve as shock troops. A Chaos marine Bike on teh charge can potentialy cause the Enemies to hit only on 6'es. And the few attacks getting through that meets a high T... And a powerfist. In this case they can be used with a Mark of Khorne.


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

Pzycho Leech said:


> I had considered the same thing about the MoN.
> 
> Further more, they can serve as shock troops. A Chaos marine Bike on teh charge can potentialy cause the Enemies to hit only on 6'es. And the few attacks getting through that meets a high T... And a powerfist. In this case they can be used with a Mark of Khorne.


They make a great shock troop if used well, i.e. you need enought guys... avoid getting shot at and they have to get the assualt. If I wanna avoid being assaulted like DC, zerkers or SW I'll assault... might give me another turn to get some help over to the combat. 

Now a chaos Lord on a bike with a deamon weapon... on a bike... with five guys... :shok: the shear destruction!!


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

The joke that is CSM :fa: is amongst GWs worst work ever.

Lets leave spawns out of the equation, as they are amongst the 2 worst units in the game, and probably the worst of those 2 too.

One major factor that all units in the CSM codex suffer from is the weird (but in 5th ed great) "the troops are the best units we have" syndrome. Berzerkers will kill more things, Plague Marines will survive longer and so on. On top of that troops are scoring. The :fa: units have a hard time competing with that.


Bikes and Raptors have limited uses and need to be tailored for a specific task carefully. Since they are overpriced (compared to SM equivalents) only design the unit for one purpose, this saves you from throwing even more points down the drain.
Imho their best use (if you really want to have them) is as cheap mobile AT, since 5th ed has so damn much vehicles around.

3 bikes w 2 meltaguns are 119 pts
5 raptors w 2 meltaguns are 120 pts
As soon as you start tossing in more upgrades the points will race towards the roof and make them even less worth their price. Id personally go for the Raptors over the Bikers since I like them better, and they somehow "feel" more survivable, mostly thanks to their larger number of models


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## ChaosJunkie (Aug 21, 2008)

im a fan of the 2 melta raptors, people never play them so no one expects them to deepstrike in behind a tank and melta the crap out of it. then they can jump around and force the enemy to deal with them, buying time for my rhinos to close in.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Melta Raptors are a valid choice, although i would avoid Deepstriking them because getting in guaranteed Melta range means risking a mishap. They also might not come in the turn you need them.
More reliable to jump them up the board and hug cover.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

ChaosJunkie said:


> im a fan of the 2 melta raptors, people never play them so no one expects them to deepstrike in behind a tank and melta the crap out of it. then they can jump around and force the enemy to deal with them, buying time for my rhinos to close in.


I can only chuckle at this comment. You say "No one expects them" as if your opponent does not see them in your reserves; and as if they are going to do something else. Raptors are a 1 trick pony that MAYBE does one job then gets shot to crap. Sure MAYBE you rolled well and they came in on time, and MAYBE they stuck on the scatter, and MAYBE you hit with the meltas, and MAYBE you pen with the meltas, and MAYBE you rolled a 5 or a 6. So if that happened then gratz your raptors have made most if not all their points back just to be shot to crap and die. Im sorry but unless your opponent ignores them they are a terrible point sink not to mention that they are an easy kill point for your opponent.

Chaosftw


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I played a friend of mine DS 6 Raptors with PF Champ, and 2 meltas. Their OOP models, I got them for free, and I like the color scheme I did. So I was oblige to use them against him. First Game was 1000 PT of SoB with 2 of those... what are they called.... danmit.. Exorcist.. I think thats right.... anywho he had 2 of those D6 of kill happy rhino tanks. In the Game I used my Melta Heavy Red Corsairs, 3 Squads with Icons. I was able to roll up Pop Smoke, survive the 3 missil hits. Then next turn roll up, 1 blows up and scatters my sqaud into cover, another Stun. Then 3rd Turn My Raptors DS 6" from closest Icon of my Squad in the closest Rhino, and blew that Tanks weapon off. Then 1 dies to 10 Sisters bolters. Next Turn my Raptors flew next to the other Exorcist, Stun it, I assaulted it, and blew that one up with the PF. So pretty good experiance. 
The Second Game had them showing up on turn 4 but I already Melta everything to Melta by then. That was a 2000 Pt game against his Sallys. So I like them.

So to the point I think in a small # of them with PF and 2 Meltas and Icons to accuratly DS with you can do some nifty Tank Busting or MC killing.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I like using raptors. They are a pretty nice unit to use. Most people just use them as suicide units to do melta drops on tanks. I personally like using them to support my daemon prince with wings.

Bikes are a bit too expensive for my tastes. Especially if your opponents know how expensive they are... which is almost all the time.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I played a friend of mine DS 6 Raptors with PF Champ, and 2 meltas. Their OOP models, I got them for free, and I like the color scheme I did. So I was oblige to use them against him. First Game was 1000 PT of SoB with 2 of those... what are they called.... danmit.. Exorcist.. I think thats right.... anywho he had 2 of those D6 of kill happy rhino tanks. In the Game I used my Melta Heavy Red Corsairs, 3 Squads with Icons. I was able to roll up Pop Smoke, survive the 3 missil hits. Then next turn roll up, 1 blows up and scatters my sqaud into cover, another Stun. Then 3rd Turn My Raptors DS 6" from closest Icon of my Squad in the closest Rhino, and blew that Tanks weapon off. Then 1 dies to 10 Sisters bolters. Next Turn my Raptors flew next to the other Exorcist, Stun it, I assaulted it, and blew that one up with the PF. So pretty good experiance.
> The Second Game had them showing up on turn 4 but I already Melta everything to Melta by then. That was a 2000 Pt game against his Sallys. So I like them.
> 
> So to the point I think in a small # of them with PF and 2 Meltas and Icons to accuratly DS with you can do some nifty Tank Busting or MC killing.



They can work, thats not the debate. Its more that 9 times out of 10 they fail in some way shape or form that for the 1 time they work its just not worth it.

Chaosftw


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## kharn-the-betrayer (Jul 16, 2010)

I gave my raptors flamer, mark of khorne, and aspiring champion with power weapon, and melta bombs, and use them with khorne DP with wings


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Bikes are alright if you give them an AC and buy a Greater Daemon, but that's alot of points for a suicide unit... Basically you turbo-boost into the enemy's lines and hope the GD summons!


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

Once again Kharn sees things as I do haha

Well. I too considered the melta approach, but I'd rather Make a Elite squad with melta spam. And My Anti tank is already handled very well by my heavy support.

I see them used with Flamers, PF and generally CQC orientated upgrades. Then Deepstrike them, prefferably close to an Icon. All my Infantry have some sort of Icon. If no Icon seems to be usable, which is unlikely. Well, to the point. They could be used to drop in and totally disembowl Important units, such as IG Platoon commands, Artillery, Broad sides. You now, all the things that tends to stay behind hand reign hell from far away.

Sure, it's a risky unit. But sometimes risk yields results.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I use 5 bikers with this.

IoN
PF
2 Meltas

Is it expensive? Yes? Do they make their points back? Yes and no. While they themselves don't kill their points weight in units they are highly effective at drawing fire. I turbo-boost them forward behind some cover and my enemy tends to focus on them and leave most of my other units unmoelested. The more they focus on T6 Bikers with a 3+ cover the less my Rhinos and Daemon Prince get's shot at.

Plus when my Greater Daemons manifests the Champion is usually close to the enemy ensuring assault.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Pzycho Leech said:


> This time on the topic and tactics of CSM fast attack.
> While the Choice is limited to Bikes and Raptors, it seems people avoid these at all costs. and I'l like to know why.


They're fucking trash, much like the codex. Raptors do just above average with double melta no champ, no mark. But with the rise of mech, everyone has basically gone from a 12" move to a 12" move, 3" out the back(rhino/chimera) and the squad inside is a troop choice that costs less than raptors.

Bikers are just fucking awful.



Pzycho Leech said:


> First of let's be honest, I'm more of a friendly player than a competetive, that said, I still like winning. My army so far is compromised of bits and pieces that can only be described as Chaos Undivided.
> 
> Fellow heretics. Lay it upon me, why do we not use Fast attackers?


Oh okay here we go, if you're not a tournament player both are super fun choices


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> So to the point I think in a small # of them with PF and 2 Meltas and Icons to accuratly DS with you can do some nifty Tank Busting or MC killing.


Don't bother with the Icon since it only works for models wearing terminator armor, obliterators and lesser daemons. Raptors / IC w/ wings / jump-packs can't use them


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

OKi, I have decided. I will Field Raptors.
Even though I primarily play fun games hehe

I'll run them in a 10 man squads with some good ol' flamer action. 
I'll take notes and then In case of rapid successes I'll post back here haha


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Im 99% sure you cant use Raptors with icons otherwise they might be slightly more fieldable!


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

World Eater XII said:


> Im 99% sure you cant use Raptors with icons otherwise they might be slightly more fieldable!


Raptors Can use Icons as all the other troops ^^


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

I think they mean Raptors can take an Icon themselves, but they gain no benefit from DS within 6" of one (they will scatter) pg 81 of C:CSM

Our fast attack seems to be for Daemonbombing or Terminator DS. Infiltrated chosen are better for spreading Daemons, but they take a slot from Terminators, which also work well in an Icon DS force. To be honest, I try to maximize Troops first and rarely have points beyond a Raptor squad, but they don't add anything to the function of my army which doesn't keep things in reserve.

I have seen 3+ units of Spawn perform reasonably, but most will say you can find better units to put points into.


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

Malgron said:


> I think they mean Raptors can take an Icon themselves, but they gain no benefit from DS within 6" of one (they will scatter) pg 81 of C:CSM


Unfortunatly you are right. The DS is only for daemons and teleporting units... Why does page 81 always betray me? XD

And I agree completely. Troops are one of the strongest points of the Chaos army. Despite that, I seem to be avoiding them hehe


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

This may sound odd, but I have had luck recently with running a 10 man squad with 2 flamers and IcCG, sure it doesn't do great against CSM, or SW, but since most of my opponents these days are IG/Orks or Tau they have been pulling their weight nicely.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

to be fair, I _thought_ I was having great success running a 6-man squad with (2) meltaguns, champ w/ twin LC & an IoS in my slaaneshi warband. Turns out I was wrong. They were such a 1-trick pony that when I was forced to make a "new" list to enter a tournament I left them at home (damned top-heavy models... so pretty yet so inpractical...) and frankly haven't looked back since. 

A 6-man chaos marine squad tucked safely into a rhino comes in at 5pts cheaper. Sure you're down a single melta-gun but you've now got an AV11 transport AND you count as scoring.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

One thing very worth mentioning is that almost all units can be made to work in the hands of a good player. A sudden and extremely unexpected unit can also provide that little extra edge that tips the battle in your favour once or twice.
Successful once or twice should however not be mixed up with good unit.

If you assume that both players in a game are of equal gaming skills then the unit selection will pay a big role. And since none of the CSM :fa: are good for their points folks shun them like the plague...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

clever handle said:


> Don't bother with the Icon since it only works for models wearing terminator armor, obliterators and lesser daemons. Raptors / IC w/ wings / jump-packs can't use them


Wait What!?



World Eater XII said:


> Im 99% sure you cant use Raptors with icons otherwise they might be slightly more fieldable!


............:shok:............



Pzycho Leech said:


> Raptors Can use Icons as all the other troops ^^


Yeah my Codex says ONLY wings cant use Icons..........:read:fuk. Nope apparently Jumpacks cant use them and Wings cant DS period. 



Goddamn you Gav Thorpe. I change my vote to Raptors as USELESS.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah my Codex says ONLY wings cant use Icons..........:read:fuk. Nope apparently Jumpacks cant use them and Wings cant DS period.
> 
> 
> 
> Goddamn you Gav Thorpe. I change my vote to Raptors as USELESS.


Page 81 says "Icons can be used by Terminators, Obliteraters, and Lesser Daemons"

Page 85 says Jump Packs and Wings count as jump infantry and can both Deep Strike


I don't know what codex you have.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Lets clear the whole Icon mess up shall we?

Almost all non marked units in the CSM codex can take Icon of Chaos Glory or any of the specific Gods Icons. They all benefit from the buff the Icon gives the unit (re roll morale/+1A/+1I and so on) until the flag carrier dies.


Cult specific units and the Lord and Sorcerer can take personal Icons. These will render the same benefit as the secondary effect of the units Icons (see below).
On top of the Icons normal effect certain other units in the Codex can also benefit from them when they Deep Strike onto the board to prevent them from scattering. Namely Terminators, Obliterators and Lesser Daemons.

Raptors and Winged models are however left out in the cold here. If they Deep Strike (which they can do) they have to do it hardcore style, without helping hands. They will benefit from the normal effect of an Icon (the unit buffs), and can in their turn help a later arriving unit of Terminators, Obliterators or Lesser Daemons to DS safely but will never be helped out to DS safely in that way themselves.


Another note on Deep Striking Raptors (and other jump inf too):
The unit moves 12+D6 run turn 1 and another 12 turn 2. Chances are extremely high that you are within range of the chosen target by simply moving up the field normally.
If you DS you must first rely on a 4+ to get on the board turn 2 and then on merciful scatter to stay within melta range. Keeping the unit on the board from turn 1 is a lot more predictable and controllable and most likely the better alternative:wink:


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## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

The Swedish Maniac got I right 
Mess cleared... And Beside, raptors with a safe landingzone? Pfft, not fun.

Though I just made a fun discovery... 20 Raptors is the same price (money, not points) as an entire battle force... That counts in my budget XD

Any how thanks to all who bothered draggin them selves in here ;P


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gally912 said:


> Page 81 says "Icons can be used by Terminators, Obliteraters, and Lesser Daemons"
> 
> Page 85 says Jump Packs and Wings count as jump infantry and can both Deep Strike
> 
> ...


:read:Fukin Brother, I done reading this late at night. I remeber a Tourney then where I got fuked when I tried to DS my DP with WINGS and somehow they said "nooooo" so... is that on the CSM FAQ maybe?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> :read:Fukin Brother, I done reading this late at night. I remeber a Tourney then where I got fuked when I tried to DS my DP with WINGS and somehow they said "nooooo" so... is that on the CSM FAQ maybe?



The FAQ states that models with wings "move as jump infantry, but do not count as jump infantry"

However, this does not negate anything. They still deep strike. That is explicitly stated under the "Wings" rules on pg. 85. 

They cheated you unless you tried to DS using the Icon rules.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

No I was trying to held my DP in reserve to not get it shot the fuck up, then DS where it can Lash when it came on. Hmmm new possibilities.


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