# Lets Talk Dark Elves



## Barnster

OK Lets start a tactics/ Review of the new Dark elf Book

Before I start I will say that while I have looked at their list and played against them in the past I never played them previously. Having played HEs I'm used to playing elves. But lets start a thread to help me and others

General Dark Elf Special Rules

Always Strike First - Yep, no longer is it only the HE who are fast, DE are too! 
This advantage isn't as big as it first sounds. Dark elves generally struck first before anyway due to their initiative and re-rolled to-hits due to hatred. Dark Elves have mellowed so they no longer hate everyone, just High Elves. The big unit that benefits from this is Executioners, who will now strike in initiative order (though not re-roll misses). 

Murderous Prowess - Re-roll failed wounds of a 1 in combat
Nice. Benefits units that can chuck out a lot of attacks, like witch elves or units that deliver high strength attacks, like cold one knights or executioners the most. There are some nasty combos to help units get more attacks which we'll chat about later but this is a NICE rule 

Magic

The big change. Dark Elves are now AMAZING wizards, with access to all 8 lores in the rule book! This is HUGE as it gives them access to spells to really buff their otherwise fairly fragile units (e.g. flesh to stone), and even spells to resurect dead models and heal monsters. 

Dark elves also have access to dark magic, a unique lore, which due to Hekartis Blessing they always get +1 to cast. The lore has 8 spells, with the attribute spiteful conjuration doing extra very low strength attacks if you cast multiple spells at the same enemy unit. Dark Magic is all offensive, with magic missile, vortexes and hex spells. Many of these spells synergise really well with each other. Balewind forces enemy to take a WS test or take damage, whilst Word of pain reduces weapon skills..

Magic will take a while to think about and I'll be really interested to see what combo emerge but never leave Naggaroth with out many sorceresses.. 

I'll add more soon


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## Barnster

Malekith - Big Pappa Dark Smurf
The Lord of the Dark elves once again takes to the battlefield. A very decent if not overwhelming statline, with T4 (For an elf!). Malekith is very similar to a Vampire Lord or a Chaos Sorcerer Lord in that he is a fighty wizard. A l4 wizard, who casts Dark Magic the DE unique lore, and due to the Hekartis blessing gets +1 to cast, ergo hes a very potent magic user. This is supported by a circlet of iron, adding an additional dice to his casting or dispelling of a spell each turn. Carrying the supreme spellshield he also has MR2 and can hurt people who try to cast spells at him
For straight up fighting, he carries The destroyer, striking at S5, forcing your opponent to reveal magic items in base contact, and if the carrier is wounded by the destroyer the item may be destroyed. Wizards also can lose wizard levels if wounded. Protection comes in the form of the armour of midnight. Heavy armour, that gives him a 2+ ward against non magical attacks and nullify's killing blow or multi wound attack.
Finally as Supreme lord, all DE within 18" can use his LD of 10 
He can be taken on foot, in a chariot, or on Seraphon, his black dragon (with slightly better stats than a regular DB) 
This is all pretty amazing. The only downside is his price, at a persons total fingers and thumbs past 500, he'll only appear in high point games. He is a tank and should not die. 
I'm torn with Malekith. He is amazing, but for the same cost you could take 2 supreme sorceress. Careful thought will be needed to think if you actually need him. He will be a fun unit to play and will be fun in friendly games. Thats about the only time I imagine we'll see him.


Morathi - Because Mums just want what's best for their son..
If you want your pure Magic character, look no further. A pretty much standard elven lord stat line, Morathi wields Heart render and darkwords. Effectively a killing blow lance, which can reduce stats for each wound suffered. Combined with Sulephet, her dark winged unicorn (Since when did pegasi have horns?) This gives her a decent threat range that you could use quite aggressively to kill wizards and WM. 
You really take her though for her spell casting ability. A l4 wizard, she can choose from shadow, death and Dark magic and freely mix them, though has to roll as normal to see what spells she gets. Honestly I think your best choosing a single lore and sticking to it (Possibly Chose 1 dark magic spell then substitute it for Power of Darkness). The first DE sorceress also has +D3 to every casting attempt she make (Further +1 if casting Dark magic). She also have MR2 and a 4+ Ward. Overall this makes her a VERY potent magic user. Whist not up there with Teclis, she will help dominate magic phases and help chuck a lot of dice around 
Finally as a beauty (Seriously? Has anyone seen the model its ugly as!) she causes any one in base contact (even friendlies) to be at -5WS unless they pass a LD test 
Morathi is probably my favourite lord character, she is a potent magic user, not a slouch in combat, and very manoeuvrable. She also comes at a very affordable price considering her abilities, costing about the same as a fully tooled up supreme sorceress. I imagine she will be seen frequently in fun games and may appear in the odd tourni list. 


Hellebron - 

Malus Darkblade - 

Heroes

Shadowblade - A young elf that no one has ever seen, but the art in the book makes him look like Auron from FFX! 
A Crazy high priced assassin, with all the gear an assassin can take. He's let down by 3 things, Low number of attacks, crazy high points cost and a model I don't really like. He can switch units until he is revealed which makes his very flexible. His low number of attacks will mean he may struggle to kill the essential target, especially if they have a decent ward save. Honestly skip him in favour of a cheaper assassin who have the same number of attacks and are less than half the price 

Lokhir Fellheart - Aha! Lets have our fill of Bread and wine and then tell tales of other times we had our fill of bread and wine! 
The dread pirate, with 2 wounds who was responsible for the death of HE Sealord Aislinn (My favourite HE character who doesn't have rules). He is your character killer. His acrobatic gait (for an elf!) allows him to target characters in the same combat even ones not in base contact. That wizard or BSB is no longer safe. His high initiative combined with ASF means that he will be rerolling most failed to hit rolls whilst his swords allow you to reroll failed to wound rolls, though he is only S4 so decent armour save characters will be able to shrug a lot of damage off. His helm causes terror, makes him have a better save which combined with his armour and cloak gives him a 2+ armour save, and regeneration! 
With his dread reputation panic tests caused by him are at -1, and if he kills a character his unit is unbreakable. 
So His rules are dead 'ard, the catch as so so often with special characters is his cost, costing considerably more than lord level characters. He's a fun hero, but I can't see him being used that often, a shame as I love his rules and am starting to like the model 


Kouran Darkhand - 

Tullaris Dreadbringer - Let the red mist descend!
A hero Executioner. He causes fear and makes the unit he joins frenzied. He carries the first Draich, and causes killing blow on a 5+ rather than a 6. He is a great character, making your infantry scarier, albeit less controllable. When paired with executioners this block is even scarier, giving them a hero that can challenge most other Heroes and kill them pretty easily, as well as gaining bonus attacks. He is also very cheap to field. I think I will field this guy a lot, and am tempted to say an auto-include if you field executioners.


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## Barnster

Lords

Dreadlord - Your lord level fighty hero. A very impressive stat line, only let down by elven S and T. Ideal general due to LD 10, can be upgrade with enough magic items to go toe to toe with most characters and stand a fighting chance in a challenge. Nothing new with these guys, old and reliable 


Supreme Sorceress - Your Wizard. Not fighty at all so try to keep her out of combat. With access to all 4 lores very flexible though I would likely go Dark Magic or Shadow Magic. With access to many wizards, all lores and access to word of power from dark magic, DE could go magic heavy very easily. 


High Beastmaster - A 300pt lord that comes with either a Manticore or Scourgerunner, included in the price. Similar stats to a dreadlord, albeit one less attack and 1 less Ld. Can be given the standard 100 magic items and comes equipped with a spear, light armour and a cloak. The key advantage with this guy is he can give a monster within 6" +d3 attacks, which more than makes up for his 1 less attack. Paired with an upgraded manticore this means his manticore will hit at 4+ 2(d3) attacks, Nice! That said a dreadlord will have a better save. 


Black Ark Fleetmaster - Worse stats than a dreadlord, more expensive than dreadlord, with no possible upgrades other than 50pts(!) of magic items. Comes with 2HWs, LA and a cloak. The only reason to take it is his Show no weakness rule, which means if he is in a challenge or kills his opponent in a challenge he makes his unit unbreakable. Honestly leave this guy on the Ark. Take a dreadlord instead, their far more flexible. If you want his show no weakness rule take Lokhir, honestly you don't need that rule as you should be only fighting with him in combats that you should win. 


Heroes

Master - Your standard fighty hero. Ideal for carrying your BS, due to the save multipliers DE can get. The only thing that makes these special is that they can ride a manticore. Taking one on a manticore with just mundane equipment would not be a terrible unit and give you access to an affordable flying scary monster that you wouldn't mind losing. 


Sorceress - Your standard hero level wizard, can be upgraded to a L2 as standard. As always these will appear in most lists. With access to 9 lores of magic, these guys are ultra flexible and ideal for blasting units to smithereens or buffing your own troops. Take 2 minimum in a 2k game 


Death Hag - A Hero level Witch elf. Fragile as as she doesn't have a save and cannot buy armour. She has 2 main roles 1) to give you access to a cauldron and 2) To give units access to witchbrew 


Assassin - 


Mounts

Black Dragon - A middle region dragon (akin to the moon dragon). He also hates high elves which is a nice touch. Equipped with a S4 breath weapon which can reduce WS and BS. Fairly affordable considering his abilities and stats. Players will have to decide whether they want to risk their general on a scary monster though. 

Manticore - A lord level mount in most respects, but importantly available to masters. Their not as impressive a dragons, but very affordable, and will happily slaughter many small units. Its probably a good idea to upgrade him to have iron skin, giving him a chaos armour save. Can be upgraded for bonus attacks, though makes him more vulnerable, probably worth it if you have points. 

Scourgerunner Chariot - Same as the special choice, but gains from a characters increased BS. Skip em' and take bolt throwers instead 

Cold one Chariot - Same as the regular chariot. Not a fan in all honesty. The character doesn't gain that much from the chariot and can be isolated more easily than if he was on a monster or in a unit. Skip 

Cold one - Use to join some knights and if your a dread lord or a master gain a frankly disgusting armour save. Useful for a dark magic sorceress for giving word of power to knight to make them hit even harder or to soften units your about to charge 

Dark Steed - Retains Fast status now regardless. Could be useful with a sorceress to join a unit of warlocks, otherwise I can't see much use for a fighty character

Dark Pegasus - If your desperate to fly but can't afford a manticore you take this. Not really a fan, could be useful for a Sorceress if she has a lot of magic missiles or direct damage spells. Masters could go WM hunting with them, but shades do that better


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Reserved for pointless post complaining about prices or dissatisfaction of product followed by generic statement of doom regarding the future of GW and a solum oath to never again purchase a GW product.



Lol but seriously.

I like the fact they have ASF now, it really fits, they are just as long lived and train just as much, if not more than their High Elf militia counterparts so it makes sense.

That plus their hatred towards HE and the re rolling of 1s to wound makes them have an edge on their shinier counterparts! DEATH TO ULTHUAN!


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## Barnster

Core Troops

Dark Elf Warriors no longer exist, instead we have Dreadspears, Bleakswords, and Darkshards (Read Spear Elves, Sword Elves, and Reapeater Crossbow Elves) 

Dreadspears - A block of spearmen. They don't come with a hand weapon, but have shields as standard. They have standard elf stats so are a decent if not outstanding core trooper. Players will use these to hold a flank and defend missile troops. They will hold their own against other light infantry and light cavalry but they won't set the world on fire. 

Bleakswords - NEVER take these Next unit. OK, I'll explain why. They are elven swordsmen. The problem is they cost the same points as corsairs and are worse. Corsairs fullfil the role of swordsmen in the dark elf force and can be upgraded to be more killy. Unless you are desperate to get a 6+ parry save avoid this unit. If you are desperate to get a 6+ parry save, don't play Dark elves! 

Darkshards - The standout unit of the Warrior genus. Armed with a multiple shot (2) armour piercing crossbow, small units of these can chuck out a lot of shots and help make up for the DE generally being outnumbered. Best used against T3 units with poor saves (greatswords other elves etc) they can help thin out even horde units to help a charge smash through. Every DE army will likely field a couple of units of these guys 

Corsairs - Arguably one of the most flexible unit in the book, they are decent at both combat and mid range shooting if upgraded to handows (liike crossbow but less range). Their cloak gives them a bonus to their save (counts as a 5+) which when combined with their armour gives them a decent save. You can upgrade them to have either AHW or handbows. They guys are a decent choice and I can see them being the core of many raiding forces. They lack any "pirate-like" special rules which is a shame, but they are a decent unit 

Dark Riders - The Kings of light Cavalry have become even better! They can have both light armour and shields and still be fast, and can take repeater crossbows. A good bait unit, I imagine these will appear in most lists to help hunt lone wizards and war machines. I consider the 110pt 5 man unit fully upgraded plus musician almost mandatory in many lists.

Witch Elves - Those what were special are now core. These warrior women come with two poisoned weapons and chuck out a tonne of attacks. They don't have any saves and come with typical elven toughness of 3 so care must be taken to ensure this unit does anything. With access to a 50pt magic banner this unit can really mess up others if you take a large enough unit. Honestly if I was going to take a big unit of these I would consider taking a cauldron to give them a save and other benefits that the Death Hag offers.


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## Barnster

This is going to be long! DE have a huge number of Special units and its where people will be spending a lot of points. There is something in here for everyone. so lets start..

Cold One knights. (COKs) Dark elves riding very stupid, but very scary velociraptors
The heavy cavalry of the Delves, equipped as you expect for a heavy cavalry unit. A pretty standard HC unit in all honesty. Their lances combined with murderous prowess, high initiative and ASF means they should be able to handle other units of Heavy cavalry and monsters quite easily provided they charge. Like all heavy cavalry they will struggle against a large block of infantry. One noticeable difference that makes them stand out is the cold one has 2A, which should help kill the extra empire soldier, breton peasant or zombie. The Cold ones are still stupid, but at LD 9 you should be ok most of the time. I can see these appearing in most lists simply because their a nice unit. Attach a character and they can help break a line. That they cause fear can be useful against low LD armies, but don't rely on it. 

Black Guard - Malekith personal bodyguard, unfortunatly their growl is worse than their bite 
A unit I really don't get. They have a good statline and equipment, with Halberds and heavy armour and 2A base. Being elves though that means they strike at s4 with a bad save. They can't do enough damage to elite units to avoid getting hit back by them and they just can't take a punch. They can't scythe down tonnes of cheap chaf units either. I wanted Black guard to be great. but they sadly just don't cut it for me. They are just too expensive for what they can do and they can't survive. Yes they are stubborn, but unless you take a massive unit (and you won't because their too pricey) their not going to hold that long because they will all be dead. If there was no step up rule these would be fantastic, in 8th though they are sadly lacking in every way. A shame as the old metal models are the best DE figures ever sculpted (I still want them!)

Shades - Shadow Warriors on Steroids
A fantastic scout unit, shades are skirmishers with repeater crossbows, and can take either great weapons or AHW. A decent size unit can kick out a tonne of shots and hit like a train in combat. These are your WM and lone wizard hunters. They can quite easily pick on missile units as well. Interestingly they can take a full command group which was unexpected, I probably wouldn't bother with any of the command upgrades or the potential light armour. I would consider getting GWs though. A great little unit 

Cold One Chariot (COC) 
The DE chariot, drawn by cold ones, its all shade of good. Pair it with an infantry unit and charge in at the same time. Like most chariots its not going to break units on its own, but can act as a great support unit. Ridden by 2 ex knights (Who decided to pick up crossbows again), the crew will happily scythe down light to medium infantry. I would avoid charging elite units until you have serious whittled them down though. Ranks of infantry will still turn these carts into matchwood if you send them in unsupported

Executioners - This is the unit!!!! 
Remember all the previous editions where taking executioners was wasting point?? Well not any more!
I love this unit. Elves that hit on I5 with S6 and killing blow! (Remember they also have murderous prowess..) Cheaper than Black Guard by quite a bit, these are the premier heavy infantry in the DE book. Capable of going toe to toe with pretty much anything and winning. I can't praise this unit enough. If you want to be nasty add a magical banner (Razor standard will mean they pretty much remove armour saves, fire will stop regenerating monsters) and let them chop. Combine with magical buffs (Flesh to stone would be good) to make a fantastic yet very affordable death star unit. 
If you feel extra nasty add in Tullaris and a Death Hag (See the combos) BUY THIS UNIT!!!!! 

Reaper Bolt thrower - Spike throwing death
Unlike HEs, the DE bolt thrower is special rather than rare. but you can take 4 in an army (8 in a grand army). Armies will take these. They are flexible enough to kill chaff, infantry, knights and monsters. They never misfire and are much cheaper than they used to be. Always expect to see at least 2 of these and don't be surprised if you see 4. In a tournament setting they will be worth their weight in gold. Make sure you protect them though. The crew are still only T3 elves and can be cut or shot with ease. Protect them and they will do well allowing your elite infantry, knights and monsters to smush the survivors in combat

Harpies - Flying elves. Thats its. 
Yeah overall a bad unit. I really can't see why you take these over shades. The rules are awful, the models are awful. go take shades instead.

Scourgerunner Chariot - Another elven chariot with a mini bolt thrower
That pretty much sums this unit. The problem is for the same points cost you can take 2 regular reaper bolt throwers and still have change. Its only T4, crewed by a couple of elves so can't really get into combat against anything of note. It does have a gimmicky rule that allows you to pull monsters towards you. I honestly don't see the point of this. Your shooting happens after you charge. That means that you can't pull a monster and then charge it and kill it before its mates join in (40k'er remember the old lash of slaanesh..) rather you have pulled a monster, that likely wants to get into combat with your very weedy chariot, closer to to your weedy chariot....
Ok whilst if you play a very tactical game you could pull a monster out of game if you manage to somehow sneak behind it. I think you would be better taking regular bolt throwers and just killing it outright. I'd pass on this unit and go the more direct approach

War Hydra - A many headed monster, that is all sorts of alright
A hydras abilities are closely linked to its remaining wounds, so try to keep it hidden or at least have a regrow sorceress nearby to keep it healthy. The hydra is very affordable points wise, it can either be upgraded to spit acid or have a breath weapon. The key feature of a hydra is its ability to regenerate. At the end of every one of your turns it can regenerate every wound its lost on a 4+. This means your enemy will try to kill it in one turn. At T5 and only a 4+ save its not going to survive too long. Keep the hydra in reserve and commit it to tip combats. its not going to be able to handle too much on its own but is far from useless 


Standout units - Executioners, Shades, Reaper Bolt throwers

Good units - Cold One Knights, Hydra

Mediocre unit - Black Guard, Chariots (Both Types) 

I can't believe its a unit - Harpies


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## Barnster

Doomfire Warlocks - Ever wondered what happened to all the male Dark Elf Wizards? 
These are interesting unit. They are cursed warlocks who fluffwise capture innocent souls to sacrifice so that Slaanesh doesn't eat theirs. 
Game wise they are a unit of fast cavalry which counts as a L2 wizard who know the Soulblight (From Death) and Doombolt (from Dark Magic). They do benefit from a nice Ward save. IMO these are the stand out unit of the rare section of the book. Soulblight is fantastic for an army which is mostly S3 and can really swing combat and shooting your way. They still have the benefits of ASF and Murderous prowess as well as poisoned attacks so they can fight in a pinch. They are not a combat unit though so don't treat them as knights

Bloodwrack Medusa - An ancient sorceress who was cursed due to vanity, sounds like a good basis for a unit. A stand alone medusa. Mediocre range for their shooting and T4 with LD2 and no save of any kind. It does have a lot of low strength killing blow attacks but overall is meh. This unit is ultra fragile and not that killy. A volley of arrows/ bolts will send her darting for cover. Honestly this unit comes over as one that GW did because they could. It may makes it point back if it pulls a lucky character assassination but I doubt it will be a regular inclusion in most lists 

Bloodwrack Shrine - A Medusa mounted on a shrine. A Much tougher Medusa. Still not that killy, but can both sap the leadership of your enemy, whilst boosting your own. Potentially this could be fantastic if combined with other units such as fear causers and characteristic reducing spells. A support unit which will likely best in an infantry heavy army. Whilst I wouldn't rust out and buy one it could be a good unit

Kharibdyss - A fighty poisoned monster which causes enemy in combat to re-roll successful leadership tests (Seeing a theme here with the shrine??). It can go super saiyan if all its attacks hit a single model, Don't rely on this ability but it is a nice touch if fighting another monster or a chariot etc. High strength and a decent number of attacks make this a decent unit. Its only T5 though so watch out for bolt throwers, cannons and high strength charges. A charge of chaos/ Grail/ blood knights, or a block of heavy infantry e.g. white lions, Greatswords, Black Orcs etc will fell this beast quite easily. Pick your fights well and you should make you points back without much problem 

Sisters of Slaughter - Crazy gladiator women who fight with whips made from their own hair
This is the ultimate expression of a glass cannon unit. Until their in combat they will fall to a stiff breeze. When in combat they will mush most of their enemies. They get bonus to hit and to wound against targets that are high weapon skills or strong thanks to their trial of blades rule. They are still S3 T3 women so be careful to pick your fight or join combat with a unit already in combat with an infantry block. They also can stop an enemy unit from claiming a rank bonus or parry save. Priced reasonably, They could make a decent second wave attack unit, treat them like close combat skirmishers and you won't go wrong. Don't treat them as a infantry block to hold your line though

Stand out unit - Doomfire Warlocks

Decent units - Kharibdyss, Sisters of slaughter

Mediocre - Bloodwrack Shrine

Can't believe its a unit - Blookwrack Medusa


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## Barnster

Reserved for Nasty Combos


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## Barnster

@Chaplain Dark elves can trample HE now! With hatred, murderous prowess and striking the same time, many HE battle lines will crumple in the first turn of a DE assault if you time it well. 

DE can out shoot and out fight most HE units. Units like Dragon Princes, Phoenix guard and Swordmasters are better than DE equivalents but the DE list can better synergise with itself to make some really nasty combos to overcome these


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

To be honest, that's as it should be. High elf line regiments are militia who are made to fight. Yeah they do it for around 30 years but they are still conscripted civilians for the most.

Dark elves may also be militia but they want to fight, they enjoy it, they thrive from it.


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## Barnster

Special units added

All troop types are now covered. Heroes and special characters will be added by the end of the week

Seems strange over 200 views and we haven't gotten a conversation going


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## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

no one has enough knowledge on how the units will work cause not all of us have the book yet. once I can see the points I can start building my army.

and i feel the same way on my DElf thread, 200 people viewed it, 2 made comments


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## Myen'Tal

A rather nice tactica, Barnster, shed's some light on the subject for me. Still waiting for my Codex to come in the mail, so this is good to bide my time.

What do you think the ideal number for a unit of Dark Shards should be? I know 8th edition is more about hordes, so maybe a block of 15 to 20? 

Shame about your opinion on the Black Guard, I like the models, will have to try out the Executioners though.


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## Barnster

Fair point. I look forward to more getting the book so we can chat in more detail. I can't put in point prices of the models in unfortunately as I don't want to incur GW wrath. This DE book has reinvigorated my love of fantasy. The last few books I have bought (WoCs and HE) were just disappointing 

@Fire Darkshards are a great unit, but they are still just missile troops who will melt if you get charged. I will probably take mine in units of 12 inc musician. To get the most out of them the need to be deployed 2 ranks deep so that everyone can fire, I'm just not a large fan of long lines of missile troops as they can start to impede movement of other units. I would take multiple units of these though rather than 1 big unit 

Whist Black guard are not totally unplayable there are just better units in the book, like the executioners. If playing a fun game BG may find their way into lists. 

I would love this thread to grow so I can expand the overview sections. add tried tactics etc. Its too early atm, but I think it would be great if every army had an overview for new player, players thinking of starting an army, or people about to fight against an army


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## Orochi

From your run down of units, I'm failing to see any glaring unit that can take on a good, solid block of Chaos Warriors.

Seems that BG and Exec's have changed places, a shame really... BG seem to have been nerfed whilst Exec's have gotten better (to be honest, all that made them shit before was the ASL from the GWs... now that's been cleared up, they are a good choice).

I'm waiting on your Special Characters. Particularly Malekeith and Shadowblade. Although, I'm guessing there is another Lord choice option in addition to the other 3 we had before...


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## Deathypoo

It's hard to know without playtesting it, but I think you're selling Black Gaurd short. Executioners are awesome, but their one attack won't ever be re-rolled to hit (unless it's HE) while the Black Gaurd's 2 attacks have eternal hatred against everyone.

They don't have the attack numbers of witch elves, or the strength of executioners, but they may have their place. Actually, BG would absolutely wreck executioners in a head to head fight, for what it's worth 



Anyway, I'll be following this thread. I'm almost done reading through everything, but there are clearly some nasty synergies that will take a little while to fully figure out.


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## Barnster

As I've said BG are far from unplayable and they will have their place. The thing that puts me off is their price. They cost about the same as a chaos warrior and the warrior is better than them in most ways. I am struggling to see what niche they fill. If you want a lot of attacks go witch elves, who even though they are s3, carry poisoned weapons. If you want high strength go executioners. If they were the same number of points as these units then they would no doubt be a great unit, as it is they are 3/4pts overpriced I think. If you were trying to streamline your list for a tournament I think these guys would go in favour of executioners or witch elves
Though I agree they can absolutely trash small bands of T3 elite infantry that don't have much save, swordmasters, greatswords, executioners top of the list. 

@orochi Honestly there isn't really anything in the list that can go toe to toe with a big block of chaos warriors. Witch elves might be able to in a big block due to the huge number of poisonous attacks they can dish out, but that is about it. But DE have access to a tonne of magic, which can reduce toughness/ weapon skill/ initiative and a tonne of shooting from crossbows/ bolt throwers/ magic that means you shouldn't have to fight a full strength unit. The key with DE against chaos will be fighting the battles you want to fight and avoiding the ones you don't. Chaos small size should also mean that you can out move them most turns allowing you to set up some decent flank charges with CO knights


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## Alsojames

All I will say is this.

Did we REALLY need a new dark elf book?


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## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

Alsojames said:


> All I will say is this.
> 
> Did we REALLY need a new dark elf book?


we REALLY needed new dark elf models for some, and that came with the idea of a new book in GWs mind


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## KarnalBloodfist

Alsojames said:


> All I will say is this.
> 
> Did we REALLY need a new dark elf book?


If only to be rid of the stupid Pendant.


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## Orochi

The Pendant and 175pt Hydra were the only logical reasons to play DE!


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## Steaknchips

So i havent got my book yet (recently moved to norway and trying to work out fast cost effective ways to buy new toys) but i've been doing my reading up and starting to plot ideas.

With the moving of witch elves to core I can see these girls getting alot of use in many lists. Having a solid core choice that deals extreamly well with low T light armoured units is a perfect compliment to the manner in which the executioners have been changed.

So my thinking is a sizeable unit of say 21 (7x3) to 30 horded witch elves running along side a horde of 29 executioners. So that starts my plans off with two nice T3 low/no armoured units ready to be shot to bits. 

Next up finish filling out core with 5 man units of shielded dark riders with xbows. Something to go anti chaff, control WE frenzy and hunt war machines. I then plan to throw in more shooting with 3-4 RBT's to fill out any spare points in special. They cover the big nastys like Deamon princes and have the flexability to assist both the WE and Exe's in their own respectives roles.

Then we come to magic, and while I think the new DE lore would be fun to play with i'm still drawn to good old reliable Shadow with a level 4. Something to playtest. To go with that i've only heard good things about the new warlock units so I think 2 units of 5-6 of these are a great subsitute to running a level 2 sorceress and work perfectly with the dark riders to give a large fast manouverable element to the force. Also with their 4+ ward a good bunker for the level 4 to be mounted in.

Finish off with a BSB of some sort to go in with the executioners and thats my first plan of thoughts.


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## Orochi

Been a while, Steaknchips. How are you, bar the move?

With such a big Khainite core, I'm sure the Cauldron would be worth a look?

(Don't have the new book, either)


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## Steaknchips

I'm pretty good thanks, not had a chance to play a real game for months now, reduced to teaching my GF how to play.

The cauldron does indeed look very strong with a WE horde core but i think initially i'll look to try withought one. At my usual 2k list size addint the thing it really soaks up points and leaves the army as mostly as the two T3 hordes one of which is frenzed and can be baited. The guys from the bad dice podcast had a game with a WE cauldron horde on youtube and the thing just munched clean through the middle of a WoC battleline withought breaking a sweat so yes it hits hard and i think from 2.4k upwards when you can fit it in withought sacraficing much its going to be a beast.

While I think shadow, dark and death magics are going to be strong with the DE's as in the past, i'm looking forward to trying out some of the new lores on them. Light's bubble spells should work well for the new book which looks to be relying on having a list that supports each of its elements. Also my all time fav lore of Beasts could be really fun to try in a fluffy beast heavy list.


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## DivineEdge

The biggest things I noticed is that the hydra isn't as terrible as I thought it would be, and I can no longer shamelessly advocate BG over Execs. They are both awesome units now, each with a spot. And against chaos warriors - I'd say rely on magic and darkshards. Those s3 shots can weather stuff down. Also, the when I saw that we got life, it was like a lot of PCP all at once. Witch elves are coolish, but I haven't yet dismissed the other core, because they are cool. Mostly conjecture though cause I haven't played to much yet.


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## The_Werewolf_Arngeirr

the only thing holding back Execs, ever, was that they didnt have ASF, being ASL due to their great weapons meant that you had to take a big enough army to survive a beating before you could dish it back out. now they can just dish out high amounts of pain to their enemies.

as for hydras, I thought they might take a huge nerf from the old book, but it does not seem to be a huge hit to the army, plus the new model, save for the claw in the chest, looks good.


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## mahavira

Is it still a good idea to have a death hag with cauldron as bsb? The old cauldron never saw melee and had T10 4+ ward vs missle fire, so it played a rather different role than the current one, which is more like a screaming bell or plague furnace. The current cauldron will generally be in the middle of a large unit of witch elves and the death hag is going to be seeing a whole lot more action (and with T3 and only the cauldron's save, dying quite a bit more). Would a Master on a cold one now be a better bsb? Heavy armor, cold one and dragon cloak get you to 1+, and you'll be wanting to reroll stupidity checks with your knights anyway.

I've seen comments about high elves and chaos warriors, but the army I mainly need to deal with is Lizardmen. It seems like a lot of DE units will just bounce off Saurus Warriors (Executioners, Cold Ones, and Monsters being the major exceptions) or worse, temple guard.


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## Steaknchips

I'm not sure where i stand on the new hydra, yes its cheaper but it lost its handers, has to buy its breath and now has to survive till the end of the turn to get regen. It was bad enough trying to keep it alive before, now it doesnt even need to be hit with flaming to kill it i can see it being easy to clear. If I was to run them I think its got to be in a more supportive role rather than being able to run them solo into infantry blocks and be pretty confident.


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## Barnster

The Death Hag on cauldron will only have a 5+ward, which isn't that impressive. I keep looking at the cauldron but am still on the fence about it. It will likely be in the middle of your line though which is ideal, whilst the bearer is alive. You'll have to keep your death hag challenge locked to avoid dying, she will easily carve up most heroes without a decent ward. A master will be easier to keep alive though with an innate save and the potential to get a very good save very easily

Not played against new LM but before they played like a more flexible version of chaos. Your best bet would be to hunt all the support wizards asap in order to really let your magic to dominate, needed to get soulblight off from your Warlocks. Chillwind will gut a unit of skink skirmishers. Use your bolt throwers to strip ranks of saurus. Many units like witch elves carry poisoned weapons which neuter the greater toughness of the saurus and you will strike first and re-roll many failed to wound. Your karibyss should be able to stand up to a lot of the LM monsters 

The hydra is definitely weaker than before, if you charge solo to a big unit you will die. that said if you use it smart it will help you out. Does it have a roll, yes, but its a different roll than before. DE have greater access to buffs now the hydra may be an idea target for many of them, a T8 with flesh to stone...


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## Deathypoo

The great thing about that hydra regen roll is that it's not just against wounds that it takes that turn, it's for all the wounds that it's lost since the beginning of the game... plus it doesn't get removed by flaming attacks. So yeah, it's worse when it comes to dying in one turn, but it's much much better against getting poked to death.


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## Steaknchips

What are peoples thoughts on Tullaris? As an alternative to the executioner horde Tullaris and say a 20 (7x3) unit of executioners could be a good looking unit. Possible bunker for a BSB and with the vast amount of chaff clearing DE's have frenzy really shouldnt be much of an issue.


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## Barnster

Tullaris is great. 

I was thinking of having him and a death hag with witch brew in the same unit, gives the unit +2 attacks. Be about 25 killing blow S6 attacks that rerolls to wound of 1s, yes please. 

As executioners are really cheap for their abilities, I think its a great mini death-star


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