# A new chapter in 40k on the horizon?



## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Calling all you fluff veterans!

_Before we continue, I am far from a fluff expert - Hell, I read the wiki from time to time, when I see a interesting thing I want to know more on, so the majority of my knowledge comes from there and this forum.
_
I had a chat the other day with a friend of mine, and I would like all of your input on it. We were discussing the current setting, the Horus Heresy and what we theorized was in the cards for the future. 

Now, as I understand it the 13th Black Crusade (which Abaddon has started) is prophesized to be the final and successful one. The Black Crusade to finish what Horus started. Simultaneously, more and more Loyalist Primarchs are being "ressurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) via newer stories and codexes, with Sanguinius and Manus being the only ones being 110% confirmed dead. It is also speculated that Cypher is returning via a datasheet on the 25th of December, where he should be closing in on Terra.

All of this lead us to believe, that a major chapter is about to end in Warhammer 40k. The end of an era, where the 13th Black Crusade is being built up to be a clash similarly epic in scope to The Horus Heresy. A prophecy coming to reality concerning The End-times, the return of the Primarchs and, possibly, the birth of the Starchild. A story that would redefine the chapters, traitor legions and the setting of Emperium and Chaos. A story where the story of Horus and his legacy, might come to a close.

We theorized that some chapters would be killed off completely, similarly to some Legions. That the alliances of characters and chapters/legions would be thrown up for grabs once again and a major revamp of the entire 40k setting would be done.

Now I ask you all; What are your thoughts on this? Do you think it will happen, and if so, which sides do you think will switch? What do you believe will be the outcome of such a chapter closing? I am very eager to hear the thoughts of the experts on this, as I believe more and more that a 3rd chapters is about to start.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Hrm, ive hard to see how they could get away with this. Without a frothing, raging lynchmob of people peeved that their superbly painted expensive models are no longer valid.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, ive hard to see how they could get away with this. Without a frothing, raging lynchmob of people peeved that their superbly painted expensive models are no longer valid.


Well, they did something similar in Warhammer Fantasy, considering that the Undead faction got split in 2 (Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings) and they did away with Chaos Dwarves all together. So the idea in itself isn't totally unfeasible.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

I am Tawa, of the internets. Quail before my NERDRAGE!!!! :crazy:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

So you're thinking Warhammer 50k?

IMO.
Chaos won, the Black crusade was successful. 
Slaanesh found the Eldar. Ynnead, the God of buffering fought and defeated slaanesh - they then both ceased to exist. The Laughing God laughed and took his mask off - revealing he was the deciever all along.
The imperium is reduced to burning cinders, fragmented and corrupted. The Primarchs returned and were defeated. The Starchild was born - this turned out to be the deciever *again*. The Grey Knight 'do not open unless its the end of days' box was opened. In it was a note from a mr d.eciever which read *snerk*.
The tau survived until one of the larger races decided the tau were looking at them funny...
Its then a fight between Chaos, Orks, Necrons and Nids for possession of the galaxy.
Nids win. Then the necrons kick the celestial orrery over and break the galaxy.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> Well, they did something similar in Warhammer Fantasy, considering that the Undead faction got split in 2 (Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings) and they did away with Chaos Dwarves all together. So the idea in itself isn't totally unfeasible.


Yeah....but that was in their early years, wasn't it around 3 edition.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Gret79 said:


> So you're thinking Warhammer 50k?


Not quite, but something along those lines.

The thoughts was that the next edition (or perhaps 8th) would be just after the 13th Black Crusade. It seems like everything currently is leading up to this giant confrontation, that is a huge deal in the history of the Emperium and the Chaos forces. 

Now this isn't a thread persay on who wins and what happens at the end of the story, more what the next chapter is. My questions are many, including if the 13th crusade does not happen now, doesn't it seem a bit dragged out in the story of it all? Or has the current setting of 40k been at this brink for several editions?
@Lord of the Night @Child-of-the-EmperorWhat are your thoughts on this? Do you find it possible that they would escalate the setting to this, and if so, what would your predictions be to the changes that would happen?



locustgate said:


> Yeah....but that was in their early years, wasn't it around 3 edition.


I think so. However, the point still stands that GW are willing to shift the gears of popular armies if the setting fits it.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Nordicus said:


> The thoughts was that the next edition (or perhaps 8th) would be just after the 13th Black Crusade. It seems like everything currently is leading up to this giant confrontation, that is a huge deal in the history of the Emperium and the Chaos forces.
> 
> *Snip*
> 
> I think so. However, the point still stands that GW are willing to shift the gears of popular armies if the setting fits it.


The 13th Black Crusade has already been, there was a global campaign about it a few years back where the results dictated the outcome. The Imperium held... barely. Half of Cadia is in flames and Chaos has managed to get a beach head outside the eye. Now they may have back tracked a bit but that was my understanding.

GW also used to give you free models in WD and print paper templates in WD so you could scratch build your own tanks. That doesn't mean they will now.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Like Jacobite said, they held a global campaign. The current meta-plot more or less ignores those results, and sticks with the theme of 999.M41 being the minute before humanity's midnight, the eve right before the Imperium's final defeat begins.

_Could_ Games Workshop advance the timeline beyond the "Abaddon launches the Thirteenth Black Crusade" date? Sure. _Will_ they? Honestly, I doubt it. I think it comes down to whether their business with 40k-era models starts failing, and/or if supplemental ventures like Heresy-era models don't get the job done. I don't think there are any solid indicators of this happening, though. Not unless you consider the more aggressive/victorious depiction of Abaddon's position in the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines as such.

Incidentally, about Cypher's data slate and his supposed location? Remember, Cypher was a big part of the Thirteenth Black Crusade. He seems to have been the "objective" for the Dark Angels, and was certainly present in the areas around the Cadian Sector (in the Agripinaa Sector, in fact) in the time of the buildup for the Thirteenth Black Crusade.

As such, any information pointing to him being near Terra would almost have to be a rumor - unless the folks at GW are simply rewriting his involvement in the Thirteenth Black Crusade. Otherwise, what exactly did he do in Terra before making his way back to Agripinaa and Caliban in record time? Use the Lion Sword to cause the irreparable failures to the Golden Throne that are referenced in the timeline section of the core rulebook?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> @Child-of-the-EmperorWhat are your thoughts on this? Do you find it possible that they would escalate the setting to this, and if so, what would your predictions be to the changes that would happen?


Honestly? No. Nothing will change. And I don't want it to. Also: 

1. The 13th Black Crusade has been part of the lore of years, and as others have said, despite moving the setting forward ever so slightly in the worldwide Eye of Terror Campaign, they have now seemingly backtracked and moved back to the immediately pre-13th Crusade era. 
2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all. 
3. There will be no new major revelations concerning Cypher if/when his data-slate is released.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Very very interesting. I was unaware that the campaign was told previously a couple of years ago, which obviously defects alot of the thoughts that came with the original discussion.

The 13th was supposed to be the final though wasn't it? Or are there any indications of further Black Crusades?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> The 13th was supposed to be the final though wasn't it? Or are there any indications of further Black Crusades?


WW I was suppose to be the final war but look how that ended.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Nordicus said:


> the 13th Black Crusade (which Abaddon has started) is prophesized to be the final and successful one.


I think that sadly you are hoping against hope for a developmental change in the Warhammer 40k universe that GW will not, nor ever, allow to come to pass. 40k is set in the 999 M41 for the reason that that is where all the Table-Top material is based. While the Novels can attempt to "set the Record Strait," the Table-Top was there first; and it is what all 40k'ish material is based on. Without it their really is no Warhammer 40k, novels or not.

In relation to adding new material I think they eventually will; once they recover from their piss poor management of the LOTR disaster (which they are still paying for). Maybe a few new armies, probably some new characters, maybe even some new objectives/scenario's. But I think it will keep the same for now, not until a few years past.

Now, hypothetically speaking, if they did decide to advance it where would they go? Surely it would bring in the chance to expand the game, add new races/rules/characters and introduce new meta-plot lines. Also it would give the chance to bring back the Legions, and better support "Epic" much more than it has in recent years. 

I would personally would like to be introduced to the Creators of the Tyranids. No offense boys, but CHOAS SUCKS; SO OUTDATED!! I tire of hearing of Abaddon and his panzies fighting the Emporer's panzies. I tire of the same old rise of the glorious choatic enemy who is smited by a hero of the Imperium. How about some Tau, let them become a strong presence instead of playi9ng the back burner. Maybe an Ork comback, or a Necron Tomb beneath Terra/Mars? The Nids and their Creator, or the rise of the Eldar once more. Maybe even have the Squats/Dark Eldar make a come back into the arena. I just think this Choas vs Imperial crap is so old, and the Horus Heresy series really is just killing it because it leaves nothing open to interpretation; to the imgaination.

Anyway thats my rant.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all.


On this subject I must actually say you are quite wrong my freind. While I agree on the rest of your bulletin's, I have notice a growing trend in the last 3 years of writers defining the fact that certain Primarchs are indeed surviviing; if not alive. Until last year I never knew El'Johnson was entombed beneath the Dark Angels homeworld, or that Guiliman might be saved, or that Magnus would seeking revenge upon the Space Wolves(I actually enjoyed that SM Novel about the attack on the Space Wolf homeworld). 

Whether or not they will "Resurrect" them is debatable but one thing is certain. The fact that they are setting up sucyh a comeback, or at least creating such situations possible for the writers (with GW approval, curse you Dan Abnett!!). We may see more Primarch vs Primarch clashes in future novels as writers grow more bold, but I agree it may not ever be on the scale it was during the Heresy period.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

emporershand89 said:


> I think that sadly you are hoping against hope for a developmental change in the Warhammer 40k universe that GW will not, nor ever, allow to come to pass.


I don't know if I hope for it, but I thought the stream of thoughts interesting at least. I do see where you are coming from though, and I wanted to hear peoples thoughts on this matter. Some times, after all, a change of scenery is very welcome 



emporershand89 said:


> Now, hypothetically speaking, if they did decide to advance it where would they go? Surely it would bring in the chance to expand the game, add new races/rules/characters and introduce new meta-plot lines. Also it would give the chance to bring back the Legions, and better support "Epic" much more than it has in recent years.


Well it would also give them a chance to reboot the codexes to a much larger degree than they can currently. Right now they can optimize or change them a bit, but they cannot really give them a reboot, as they still have to fit into the story. If a new chapter starts, it's all up for grabs. This was also a point in the discussion, that they might want to do that further down the line.



emporershand89 said:


> I tire of hearing of Abaddon and his panzies fighting the Emporer's panzies.


Well this was actually the start of the debate with my friend, as I agree with you. Even as a Chaos player through and through, I find it a bit sad that the prime scheme is almost entirely of Chaos vs Emperium. What a story it could be if the prime was suddenly a giant WAAARGH instead of the like. My thoughts would be that this could be the next setup, after the 13th crusade was done.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Nordicus said:


> Well this was actually the start of the debate with my friend, as I agree with you.


If that is so then please, do continue. My general point is that many 40k players are tired of the Heresy, tired of the same Choas vs Imperium plot lines (...and it is "Imperium, not "Emperium." The Emperium referes to the Warp, not the institution). 

When the fight for Armaggedon came around with Ghazukull Thraka Un Maga vs Yarrick came around I was genuinly excited. Here was a fresh plot line with an epic show down between two great adversaries that would settle the score once and for all. Plus it spawned addicitional Fluff like the "Last Chancer's" and the "For the Greater Good" series. However they let that sputter and die; I was pissed. The Nid invasion of Macragge came up, and I was fired up. Here was humanities last stand against the forces of consuming evil from outside the known galaxy. Good story, they finished that well. The Damocles Gulf Crusade against the Tau really brought the Tau and their fighting abilites/soldier's stories to the forefront. Wish they'd finish that honestly; they left it so open. 

Stories such as these excite me, and should you as well. They bring a fresh edge to 40k, and keep us away from the stiffling plot lines of 30 years ago. I'm sorry older Heretics, but the 80's are over, the Heresy period needs to die....PERIOD!

To throw you a bone Nordicus imagine the Nids making their final attempt for Terra; the heartland of biomass for them. That would create whole box sets of miniatures and novels. As you suggested an Ork Waagh!, or perhaps a 4th Expansion of the Tau; finally turning them from nuetral allies to enemies of the Imperium. Your thought on the Necrons, with all their Fluff development lately; how would they play out.



Nordicus said:


> Well it would also give them a chance to reboot the codexes to a much larger degree than they can currently.


Yes....yes it would. I do not think that will be a good thing though.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Just to point out battletech was set in the one minute to midnight thing for a long time. 

When they finally did advance the story it wasn't as fun.

I mean 40K is all about the imperium dying, if they advance the plot they either have to retcon allot (which I wouldn't put past them) to allow the imperium to survive or they would have to redo allot of armies to match the new fluff.

I personally don't want to know what the nids are running from. It will never be as good as what we can imagine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> Very very interesting. I was unaware that the campaign was told previously a couple of years ago, which obviously defects alot of the thoughts that came with the original discussion.
> 
> The 13th was supposed to be the final though wasn't it? Or are there any indications of further Black Crusades?


Yes, the 13th will supposedly be the final Crusade - where Abaddon will usher in the End Times. The worldwide Eye of Terror campaign was roughly ten years ago now, so its been around quite a while.



emporershand89 said:


> On this subject I must actually say you are quite wrong my freind.


Nope, I'm right:



emporershand89 said:


> Until last year I never knew El'Johnson was entombed beneath the Dark Angels homeworld


You may not have been aware, but for as long as I can remember (and I've been dabbling in this hobby for around 15 years) the Lion has always been "asleep" on The Rock.



emporershand89 said:


> or that Guiliman might be saved


Pilgrims believing that Guilliman's wound is healing has been a part of the lore since the Index Astartes articles (if not earlier) and they've been around for about 11 years now.



emporershand89 said:


> or that Magnus would seeking revenge upon the Space Wolves


Again, this tale was part of the Space Wolves Omnibus from roughly a decade ago.

(These dates are off the top of my head, I'm sure if I looked into it properly I would find that some of the above lore has actually been around much longer).



Nordicus said:


> Whether or not they will "Resurrect" them is debatable but one thing is certain. The fact that they are setting up sucyh a comeback, or at least creating such situations possible for the writers (with GW approval, curse you Dan Abnett!!). We may see more Primarch vs Primarch clashes in future novels as writers grow more bold, but I agree it may not ever be on the scale it was during the Heresy period.


Nothing new in this regard has happened in recent years, only old lore being reiterated.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The worldwide Eye of Terror campaign was roughly ten years ago now


Haha yeah ok, that would explain my lack of knowledge. I never went that far back in the lore and campaigns. I do find it interesting that they would do a campaign for a future clash though - I never thought they would do that.



emporershand89 said:


> To throw you a bone Nordicus imagine the Nids making their final attempt for Terra; the heartland of biomass for them. That would create whole box sets of miniatures and novels. As you suggested an Ork Waagh!, or perhaps a 4th Expansion of the Tau; finally turning them from nuetral allies to enemies of the Imperium. Your thought on the Necrons, with all their Fluff development lately; how would they play out.


I do find all those stories quite interesting to contemplate - Especially the Necrons which I find have a fascinating history, even though I hate playing against them  In general there are so many stories and campaigns that I could think of, that would make for excellent story elements. It is my hope that the general story of 40k will some day envelop more than just the Black Crusades, so there's major stories for more races in general.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

emporershand89 said:


> Maybe a few new armies, probably some new characters, maybe even some new objectives/scenario's. But I think it will keep the same for now, not until a few years past.


I seem to remember you saying you had definite evidence of a new race for 40K coming out? Guess that's down to a maybe now?



emporershand89 said:


> My general point is that many 40k players are tired of the Heresy, tired of the same Choas vs Imperium plot lines.


Sales data from FW seems to suggest otherwise as well as the ever growing number of HH forces out there. The amount of HH books selling out of BL as well. 

Personally the Chaos/Imperium conflict is the most interesting part about 40k. It is a battle effectively between humanity and itself. Chaos cannot survive without humanity but it is intrinsically at war with it. Chaos feasts upon the many emotions that humanity has, it subverts and destroys as well as empowers and blesses. The GG novels wouldn't work anywhere near as well if they were about fighting Orks or Eldar. There are many many sides to Chaos and they fight each other as much as they do the Imperium. Chaos has more stories to tell than say Orks for example as a human servant of Chaos, fallen to Gods is more relatable than a hulking greenskinned alien who has all the mental capacity of a mentally challenged inbred, the writers of the game have got more of handle on the "voice" of Chaos for this reason.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Again, this tale was part of the Space Wolves Omnibus from roughly a decade ago.


The Omnibus did not include the "Battle of the Fang" novel now did it? Unless I'm mistaken this is Magnus's latest attempt to crush the Space Wolves (which he has been doing for some time now). The Omnibus, written a few years ago, does not include recent changes to Lore (Including the Heresy adaptationas that have redefined Magnus's role in the plot with Horus).

Did I miss anything? 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Nope, I'm right:


No, your quite wrong freind. Just read many of the new Space Marine novels of late and you see the picture.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> IStuff


The nid's creators....NO.....I like that being a mystery/the thought that their weapons destroyed themselves. The orks/tau/crons getting expanded yes.

If you want a new army then do one within the Milky Way.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all.


Well, several of them were never confirmed to be "dead" to begin with. While the continuing survival of Leman Russ and Corax is doubtful (they headed into the Eye of Terror, after all), their death is by no means a certainty, either. The same can be said about the Khan, though the fact that he stumbled into Commoragh only makes his prospects less Similarly, we don't truly know what happened to Vulkan - recent Heresy-era novels only cast doubt to the idea that he didn't survive that war.

Finally, where the Lion is concerned, he never needed resurrection; he was "asleep" in previous editions while his wounds were healing, and in the current Codex his wounds _are_ healed - though he is still in slumber.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> The Omnibus did not include the "Battle of the Fang" novel now did it? Unless I'm mistaken this is Magnus's latest attempt to crush the Space Wolves (which he has been doing for some time now). The Omnibus, written a few years ago, does not include recent changes to Lore (Including the Heresy adaptationas that have redefined Magnus's role in the plot with Horus).
> 
> Did I miss anything?


No, but it included a different version of the same tale (Madox and the Spear of Russ IIRC). Thus Magnus wanting revenge against the Space Wolves is not a new phenomenon (as you said it was). In fact it probably goes back well beyond the Space Wolf Omnibus to when the Burning of Prospero was introduced to the lore. 



emporershand89 said:


> No, your quite wrong freind. Just read many of the new Space Marine novels of late and you see the picture.


You cited three examples: The Lion being "asleep" on The Rock, Guilliman potentially healing, and Magnus wishing revenge on the Space Wolves. I have proven that all 3 have been a part of the lore for at least a decade, if not longer. 

You claimed:


emporershand89 said:


> I have notice a growing trend in the last 3 years of writers defining the fact that certain Primarchs are indeed surviviing; if not alive. Until last year I never knew El'Johnson was entombed beneath the Dark Angels homeworld, or that Guiliman might be saved, or that Magnus would seeking revenge upon the Space Wolves(I actually enjoyed that SM Novel about the attack on the Space Wolf homeworld).


I have disproved the 3 examples you've given - as they've been part of the lore for a very long time. Can you give any appropriate examples for this apparent trend (over the last 3 years) that you seem to have discovered?



Phoebus said:


> Well, several of them were never confirmed to be "dead" to begin with. While the continuing survival of Leman Russ and Corax is doubtful (they headed into the Eye of Terror, after all), their death is by no means a certainty, either. The same can be said about the Khan, though the fact that he stumbled into Commoragh only makes his prospects less Similarly, we don't truly know what happened to Vulkan - recent Heresy-era novels only cast doubt to the idea that he didn't survive that war.
> 
> Finally, where the Lion is concerned, he never needed resurrection; he was "asleep" in previous editions while his wounds were healing, and in the current Codex his wounds _are_ healed - though he is still in slumber.


Yeah, that's what I meant.  My point is that none of the above is a new trend or phenomenon (like _emporershand_ is claiming) it has all been part of the lore for a very long time.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> Unless I'm mistaken this is Magnus's latest attempt to crush the Space Wolves (which he has been doing for some time now).


Are you sure you actually read the book? They make reference to the Heresy and loss of Russ as relatively recent things, which could not be the case if it happened in the present. The battle of the Fang took place in millenium 32, likely less than a thousand years after the Heresy.

There was a very good reason Magnus mentioned that that would likely be the last time his own legion would have the strength for such a thing.

The story of the the Thousand Sons trying to destroy the Fang has been around since Bjorn the Fell Handed was first introduced in the Space Wolves 2nd edition codex (making that story about 20 years old.) It has only just been more fleshed out, something you'll notice has been happening for quite a few years now (but again, these stories are not new and many have, in fact, been around for quite some time.



emporershand89 said:


> The Omnibus, written a few years ago, does not include recent changes to Lore (Including the Heresy adaptationas that have redefined Magnus's role in the plot with Horus).


I hope your just trying to yank chains here. The Space Wolf Omnibi are collections of the original novels made easier to own. The oldest of those original novels predates the first Heresy novel by roughly a year, of course none of them would include the revisions or alterations of that series.



emporershand89 said:


> No, your quite wrong freind. Just read many of the new Space Marine novels of late and you see the picture.


Like CotE said, none of your three previous points are new developments. Additions such as Vulkan being a perpetual and Alpharius being two individuals hasn't really changed anything (in fact Alpharius being two lends credit to Guilliman having possibly killed one, though since that was from an inquisitor who was an Alpha Legion operative theres still no trusting its validity.)


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> The battle of the Fang took place in millenium 32, likely less than a thousand years after the Heresy.


No I'm not yanking your chain Reever. The Omnibus is a collection previous wirtten novel; this is true. However it only is "Previous Written" and does not include recent novels. Undoubtable in the next year or so those novels will become a Omnibus, and thus fall behind the "Trending" 40k literature if you want to refer to it as such. Thus it seems stupid and illogical to refer to an Omnibus when more recent novels depict new Cannon Lore on the subject matter. 

Back to topic though, the new "Battle of the Fang," novel, written by Chris Wraight and published in 2011, depicted the 3rd Battle for the Fang if I'm not mistaken. The previous Battle for the Fang took place much earlier; closer to the Post-Heresy days whenMagnus railed against what had happened. I will do some more research to see if what you say is true, but I still beleive this recent novel depicts the most "Recent" attempt to take the Fang. It also gives us a few insights into Russ's dilema; such as when Magnus states to Bjorn Fell-Hand (Now a Venerable Brother in Dreadnought armor) that he knows of the Great Wolfs whereabouts.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I have disproved the 3 examples you've given - as they've been part of the lore for a very long time.


I would dispute your claim for the healing of Guilliman, as that is only a recent trend. I beleive it was noted in a Mechanicus novel.

Moving on their is the fact that now, thanks again to the "Battle of the Fang" novel we know Leman Russ lives. Magnus even states he knowns of the Wolf Kings' whereabouts; which can only lead me to conclude that in some fashion Leman Russ lives. 

As for the rest of the Primarchs that are definitely still alive are the 6 traitors who reside in the eye of terror as Daemon Princes, and one of the Alpharius Omegon twins (who is not a daemon prince) whop is stated to be alive, but his location unknown.

So that means that Lorgar and Perturabo are Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, Magnus the Red is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Mortarion is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and Angron is a Daemon Prince of Khorne. All they really do is sit on their asses in the Eye of Terror on the planets they rule over. Except for Angron who led 50,000 Khorne Berserkers on a crusade during the 38th millennium which lasted for 2 centuries, they slaughtered a whole shit load of Imperial citizens and basically screwed up more than 70 sectors. It took 4 space marine chapters, 2 titan legions, and over 30 regiments of the Imperial Guard to retake the areas he had driven into anarchy. And then in the 40th millennium Angron was responsible for the first war for Armageddon and then he got banished back into the warp by 100 grey knight terminators, of which only 10 survived. And it took them a few weeks for them to defeat him.

Of the loyalist primarchs who might be alive are Leman Russ, Vulkan, and Corax who are probably in the Eye of Terror. Leman is known by Magnus, Peturabo claims to have seen Vulkna, but idk on Corax tbh. Jaghatai Khan who is stuck in the webway fighting the Dark Eldar, so we can say he is probably alive. That's about it, anything else sir................. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, but it included a different version of the same tale (Madox and the Spear of Russ IIRC).


This is true, however my point is that while this obviously is not Magnus's first attempt, it clearly show it will not be his last. Trying to point to an Omnibus as your "current" source of information is like trying to say the Pyramids represent modern technology. Not buying it.



Phoebus said:


> While the continuing survival of Leman Russ and Corax is doubtful (they headed into the Eye of Terror, after all), their death is by no means a certainty, either.


Thank you Phoebus, +1 for you sir. Could not have said it better myself. The Primarch's may not be around, but the Horus Heresy series, and other recent 40k literature, confrim niether are they dead.



Jacobite said:


> I seem to remember you saying you had definite evidence of a new race for 40K coming out? Guess that's down to a maybe now?


I did, and I beleive I had posted a few of those Links. I will Repost them below, but I admit your right Jacobite that now it is a "Definite Maybe," at best. Since they have been revamping the Codex's I have not seen any news nor feel they will turn their attnetion back to this possibility (or at least publicly).

This Interesting take on the Jokero possibly being the next Army seem plausible for some time: http://www.squaretablegaming.com/2011/03/40k-news-new-army-announced/

Also this one posted on a known 40k forum citing White Dwarf 5th Edition as leaving an opening for an Adeptus Sororitas Codex?: http://pinsofwar.com/warhammer-40k-sisters-of-battle-codex-2013/


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Back to topic though, the new "Battle of the Fang," novel, written by Chris Wraight and published in 2011, depicted the 3rd Battle for the Fang if I'm not mistaken.


I think you are mistaken. It is just a retelling of old lore. 



emporershand89 said:


> I would dispute your claim for the healing of Guilliman, as that is only a recent trend. I beleive it was noted in a Mechanicus novel.


Quote from Index Astartes Vol. III (published 2003):

_"Not even the Primarch's god-like physique could halt the spread of Fulgrim's poison and, as Guilliman died, the Apothecaries set up a stasis field and transported their leader back to Macragge. To this day, Roboute Guilliman remains entombed within the stasis field, held immobile on his marble throne in the Temple of Correction on Macragge. There are those who claim that the Primarch's wounds are healing, but this is clearly impossible within the time-locked bubble of a stasis field. Despite this self-evident fact, many believe such tales and await the time when Guilliman will be fully recovered."_

I believe it was already a part of the lore before the above was published, though I don't have access to my 2nd Edn stuff currently. So no, it's not a "recent trend". 



emporershand89 said:


> Moving on their is the fact that now, thanks again to the "Battle of the Fang" novel we know Leman Russ lives. Magnus even states he knowns of the Wolf Kings' whereabouts; which can only lead me to conclude that in some fashion Leman Russ lives.


_Battle of the Fang_ does not categorically confirm that the Wolf King lives. Primarily because it was set roughly 8,000 years ago.



emporershand89 said:


> As for the rest of the Primarchs that are definitely still alive are the 6 traitors who reside in the eye of terror as Daemon Princes, and one of the Alpharius Omegon twins (who is not a daemon prince) whop is stated to be alive, but his location unknown.


Yes, the Daemon Primarchs endure (though we know next-to-nothing about Alpharius Omegon) as has always been the case. What is your point?



emporershand89 said:


> So that means that Lorgar and Perturabo are Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, Magnus the Red is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Mortarion is a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and Angron is a Daemon Prince of Khorne. All they really do is sit on their asses in the Eye of Terror on the planets they rule over. Except for Angron who led 50,000 Khorne Berserkers on a crusade during the 38th millennium which lasted for 2 centuries, they slaughtered a whole shit load of Imperial citizens and basically screwed up more than 70 sectors. It took 4 space marine chapters, 2 titan legions, and over 30 regiments of the Imperial Guard to retake the areas he had driven into anarchy. And then in the 40th millennium Angron was responsible for the first war for Armageddon and then he got banished back into the warp by 100 grey knight terminators, of which only 10 survived. And it took them a few weeks for them to defeat him.
> 
> Of the loyalist primarchs who might be alive are Leman Russ, Vulkan, and Corax who are probably in the Eye of Terror. Leman is known by Magnus, Peturabo claims to have seen Vulkna, but idk on Corax tbh. Jaghatai Khan who is stuck in the webway fighting the Dark Eldar, so we can say he is probably alive. That's about it, anything else sir.................


What is your point?

All of this has been in the lore for decades. Most of the traitor Primarchs still live, and we cannot categorically confirm that more than a handful of loyalist Primarchs are dead. This has always been the case.

So I ask again, what is your point?



emporershand89 said:


> This is true, however my point is that while this obviously is not Magnus's first attempt, it clearly show it will not be his last. Trying to point to an Omnibus as your "current" source of information is like trying to say the Pyramids represent modern technology. Not buying it.


I'm not pointing to the Omnibus as my "current" source of information at all. :wacko:

All I am doing is refuting your suggestion that there is a current trend of revelation concerning the fates of the Primarchs. Most, if not all, of what we currently know has been in the lore for at least a decade. I, and others, have provided proof that is the case. So I don't really understand what you're trying to achieve.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

emporershand89 said:


> And then in the 40th millennium Angron was responsible for the first war for Armageddon and then he got banished back into the warp by 100 grey knight terminators, of which only 10 survived. And it took them a few weeks for them to defeat him.


109 GK Terminators actually, and 13 survived. I don't think it took them a few weeks either. Not entirely sure on that point having not read "The Emperors Gift", however the numbers were stated in the WD article from around the time of the first GK dex.



emporershand89 said:


> I did, and I beleive I had posted a few of those Links. I will Repost them below, but I admit your right Jacobite that now it is a "Definite Maybe," at best. Since they have been revamping the Codex's I have not seen any news nor feel they will turn their attnetion back to this possibility (or at least publicly).
> 
> This Interesting take on the Jokero possibly being the next Army seem plausible for some time: http://www.squaretablegaming.com/2011/03/40k-news-new-army-announced/
> 
> Also this one posted on a known 40k forum citing White Dwarf 5th Edition as leaving an opening for an Adeptus Sororitas Codex?: http://pinsofwar.com/warhammer-40k-sisters-of-battle-codex-2013/


I am soooo glad you reposted that Jokero link. Because as I stated the first time you posted it, it is pure and utter bullshit of the highest order and it states so at the bottom of the page (as in it is an April Fools joke), that is of course if the minis pictured (from other manufactures other than GW) weren't enough to give it away. So no it wasn't plausible at all. So no you didn't have any definitive proof there. 

White Dwarf 5th edition? What exactly is that? Another one of your made up sources.

That second link you post today was posted on Pins of War months after you claimed definitive evidence of a new race. It wasn't in the original post. You also said at the time where you linked that made up Jokero Dex claimed that this "new race" you have insider knowledge of was due to replace Sisters as they had according to you "been squatted", which you were stoked with as you said they were OP, or was it under powered? I seem to recall you changing your story. Guess you were wrong there as well. I wonder why that could be? So again you don't have definitive evidence. You've been telling porkies... again. Why I am not surprised? I've got no problem with posting up rumors or conjecture but blatantly making shit up and treating it as fact as you are prone to do, well that often doesn't go down too well.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> No I'm not yanking your chain Reever.


If your even half serious about anything in most of your posts than you surely have to be.



emporershand89 said:


> However it only is "Previous Written" and does not include recent novels.


Yeah..no kidding.

The two Space Wolf omnibi are for the six novels that make up the Ragnar series; novels showing the early life, exploits, and defining victories of Blackmane and how he came to be the warrior he presently is.



emporershand89 said:


> Undoubtable in the next year or so those novels will become a Omnibus, and thus fall behind the "Trending" 40k literature if you want to refer to it as such. Thus it seems stupid and illogical to refer to an Omnibus when more recent novels depict new Cannon Lore on the subject matter.


First, its canon not cannon. I'm sure that I am not the only one who feels offended/insulted every time you, who claim to have been in at least two groups of armed forces, manage to mix artillery with the general accepted background of a large amount of literature.

Second, do you really think we will be seeing omnibi of the Space Marine Battles series in the next year? Really? Just gonna leave it at that.



emporershand89 said:


> Back to topic though, the new "Battle of the Fang," novel, written by Chris Wraight and published in 2011, depicted the 3rd Battle for the Fang if I'm not mistaken. The previous Battle for the Fang took place much earlier; closer to the Post-Heresy days whenMagnus railed against what had happened.


Yeah..no; if your referring to the siege of Fenris during the Age of Apostasy and siege of the Fang following the events of the first war for Armageddon then those come after this one (*seeing as this one occurs less than a thousand years after the Heresy occurred.*)



emporershand89 said:


> I will do some more research to see if what you say is true, but I still beleive this recent novel depicts the most "Recent" attempt to take the Fang.


Yeah, I don't think half assing information is actually research, or at least nothing close to proper research.



emporershand89 said:


> that he knows of the Great Wolfs whereabouts.


Whats that? The Space Wolves greatest enemy goading the oldest member of the chapter with information that they all want? Your right, everything Magnus said at that point had to be the truth and nothing but the truth.. (and in case you still don't get it, many of us use orange text to represent sarcasm.)



emporershand89 said:


> I would dispute your claim for the healing of Guilliman, as that is only a recent trend. I beleive it was noted in a Mechanicus novel.


Child-of-the-Emperor did a good job with this one, no need for me to reiterate (I hope.)



emporershand89 said:


> and one of the Alpharius Omegon twins (who is not a daemon prince) whop is stated to be alive, but his location unknown.


Where is this stated? Source or yet another fake 'fact' from you.



emporershand89 said:


> Angron was responsible for the first war for Armageddon and then he got banished back into the warp by 100 grey knight terminators, of which only 10 survived. And it took them a few weeks for them to defeat him.


Jac already pointed out that your numbers are off, and it did not take a few weeks. The entire war might have taken a few weeks, but the battle that banished Angron back to the warp would have taken nothing more than a few hours if that.



emporershand89 said:


> Peturabo claims to have seen Vulkna,


Again, source or bullshit.



emporershand89 said:


> That's about it, anything else sir..


Like Child-of-the-Emperor I have partaken in this copy for fifteen years; everything you have stated about the primarchs so far has been that way since I got into the hobby.


Also, in regards to Alpharius. The original material on the death of Alpharius came from an inquisitor who was a confirmed operative of the Alpha Legion. Meaning nothing he said could be considered true, since the Alpha Legion are known for misinformation. 

Nothing new contradicts this. That Alpharius and Omegon are twins means that one of them might have died, or they both still live


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Battle of the Fang does not categorically confirm that the Wolf King lives. Primarily because it was set roughly 8,000 years ago.


This is....true. However I have spent the last 2 hours at work reading (in addition to getting sucker punched by a Patient who quickly got put into Restraints) up on this to see what the backgeround story is. From my understanding (according to Lexicanum, "Battle of the Fang," novel and a third party website) Fenris has seen two Battle of the Fangs, a Plague of Disbeleif, and a short skirmish between the Wolves of Fenris and the Inquisition. first Fang battle was shortly after the close of events on Terra, at the tail end of M31. The second Battle of the Fang was during M32. The only difference between the two was the manpower and troop types avalaible to the Thousand Sons commanders. The first was purely Astartes, the second involved daemonic units (Daemonic Engines, Rubric Marines, Corrupted Guard, mass amounts of Psykers) that made the fight much more deadlier for the Wolves. 

I will grant you the Omnibus may be abotu the same battle as the recent novel. However I cannot beleive they would reprint the same story already noted in an official Omnibus. Iconfess I'm going to buy the Omnibus and read through to determine the difference.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> All I am doing is refuting your suggestion that there is a current trend of revelation concerning the fates of the Primarchs.


The point is this. You had made the below statement....



emporershand89 said:


> 2. There has been no new revelations concerning the loyalist Primarchs - no Primarchs have been "resurrected" (as in, not confirmed dead) at all.


....and I disagree. Many of these "Revelations," if you will seem to be fairly recent. I have yet to find any publications from the 90's, or even 80's, that state the idea of these Primarchs ever returning. Back then it was more "They are Gone until the End Times." Now suddenly it seems, with the advent of the Horus Heresy series, that the idea of Primarchs returning is not only plausible, but is being encouraged. Therefore when you tell me there are no new revelations or idea's stating that the Primarchs will return I think your dead wrong. If anything these "Trends," you so rightful claim have been around for some time are rather recent, and no offense but 7 year old puyblications are still fairly recent as far as human history is concerned.

Jacobite I would refute that claim. April Fools or not many people have talked about the Jokero becoming an Army. Similar with Squats; which you should know full well I Champino ever chance I get. As for the article it did come after such words were spoken, yet you asked for articles from which I had made my claims. That was once such article I had read. Regardless be careful how you define "sources," for unless your Professors want to turn their "conjecture" that many of them use as the basis for research into fact then to say that treating such sources as "trivial and non-supportive," is saying similar statements. again I will contiue to read, and if I find anything you will certainly be the first to know. 



> The two Space Wolf omnibi are for the six novels that make up the Ragnar series; novels showing the early life, exploits, and defining victories of Blackmane and how he came to be the warrior he presently is.


Exactly, yes, yes!! Thus when I have someone telling me that the Omnibus includes the "Battle of the Fang," as depicted in the recent novel(The Second Battle in M32) I claimed bollocks. As to whether or not it mentions the Primarchs I cannot say, but I'm sure they mention Russ in there somewhere in those six novels.



> I'm sure that I am not the only one who feels offended/insulted every time you, who claim to have been in at least two groups of armed forces, manage to mix artillery with the general accepted background of a large amount of literature.


Yikes, I don't know if I feel ashamed at myself or very insulted by your choice of words. I tend to type fast and these computers at work don't have auto-spell check like my baby at home so I know that happens. I also admit to saying "turrent," instead of "turret." Also I pissed off my Arty instructor at Fort Lewis, Washington by speaking "Moter," instead of "Mortar," for wish I paid a hefty Smoke session as punishment. 

Also, as I have said in posts and PM's time and time again to you I was in one Branch; the Army. I had 3 different MOS's during that time, chiefly 11B(Infantry), 31B(MP), and then 13A(Arty Officer) which was never fully completed. Do not make me repeat myself on that fact.  Still, please be careful of your choice of words is where I shall leave it at.



> siege of Fenris during the Age of Apostasy


Do you have a link for this Darkreever? I am not finding in in Lexicanum, and the Fenris page does not mention it one bit (unless it is the Plague of Disbeleif).



> I don't think half assing information is actually research


Again, words. I actually spend quite some time reading Lexicanum, and purchasing novels for reading on topics that are posted here on Heresy. Now unless your refutting "Lexicanum," and above mentioned sources; which would turn most arguements here on Heresy invalid. I would suggest then that you call it what you wish; but you tell me how else to find information on Lore. White Dwarf, those "Third Party" website you often scorn me for refering too? Hmpf!!



> The Space Wolves greatest enemy goading the oldest member of the chapter with information that they all want?


Really, so the All-Seeing Magnus wouldn't be keeping tabs on his arch-nemisis? Hard for me to beleive, but I suppose this is conjecture, and really up to personal interpretation.



> Where is this stated? Source or yet another fake 'fact' from you.


Probably fact. "Index Astartes IV," states that while Guilliman claims he defeated Alpharius it may have been Omegon who died. It is a well known secret there were twin Primarchs of the Legion, but it is unclear which one, or if either of them, died on Eskrador. Therefore I don;t give a damn about what the Inquisitor said; though that might be a lead to start at. I think it is safe two assume, from what the UltraMarine records state, that one of the twins is still alive; though location unknown. As I said before. even Lexicanum supports this fact, read the link for yourself......http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Omegon#fn_2 



> Again, source or bullshit.


Conjecture to be honest. I admit it's 3:52am and I must reset the Survaillence camera's so it will have to wait; but I'm going to dive into Lexicanum, if not my collection. I know I read somewhere of Peturabo making a similar claim as Magnus of knowing the location of Vulkan. To be perfectly honest you may call BS on this one as it is more something develop by hours of debate with 40k players on game night, and a mixture of novel lore. The Lore still states Vulkan will only return when the ForgeFather has gathered the Artifacts of Vulkan together again(funny enough they don't include the Primarchs chief weapon; his Hammer). I will get back to you on this.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

emporershand89 said:


> Jacobite I would refute that claim. April Fools or not many people have talked about the Jokero becoming an Army. Similar with Squats; which you should know full well I Champino ever chance I get. As for the article it did come after such words were spoken, yet you asked for articles from which I had made my claims. That was once such article I had read. Regardless be careful how you define "sources," for unless your Professors want to turn their "conjecture" that many of them use as the basis for research into fact then to say that treating such sources as "trivial and non-supportive," is saying similar statements. again I will contiue to read, and if I find anything you will certainly be the first to know.



You said you had definite proof and supplied the Jokero as an example. It isn't. It is a joke. A fake which the author admits. It has no basis in fact what so ever. It is therefor not definite or proof. I'm not sure how it can made any clearer to you. 

Which people have talked about Jokero becoming a full race? This prank and who else? 

You've posted one thread about Squats a couple of days ago and this was the first time I heard you mention them. I have heard you use the term "squatted" several times and there was no championing being done about a short bearded race at all. So no, you don't.

You are aware of the way the concept of "time" works aren't you? I asked for articles from which you had made your claims. As in those claims which you had supported with the bullshit monkey proof. Not subsequent articles as they didn't exist when you made those claims. However since you brought the Sisters of Battle up, I'll point this out. That subsequent article in fact disprove those claims you made as Sisters of Battle are A: Not a new race and B: The very race you claimed was being "Squated" and was being replaced by your phantom race.

I define sources as anything that is leaked out of GW i.e. not your wishlisting and fantasies and not April Fools pranks. If you actually read something new then please feel free to tell me, tell the whole world however please stop making shit up and passing it off as fact which is what seems to be becoming a pathological habit of yours. We aren't stupid and smell the bullshit very easily.




emporershand89 said:


> Also, as I have said in posts and PM's time and time again to you I was in one Branch; the Army. I had 3 different MOS's during that time, chiefly 11B(Infantry), 31B(MP), and then 13A(Arty Officer) which was never fully completed.


So where were you a 1st Sergeant? Or have I misread something you have written? And I thought you said you were a 2nd LT, there is a picture of you saying you were one at a dining in. Now you are saying you didn't complete the training? Actually forget it, I don't really care if you are, as somebody else put it "playing walter with the war stories".




emporershand89 said:


> Really, so the All-Seeing Magnus wouldn't be keeping tabs on his arch-nemisis? Hard for me to beleive, but I suppose this is conjecture, and really up to personal interpretation.


I can't beleive I actually have to spell this out to you. What Darkreever is saying is that - Magnus, servant of Tzeentch the great manipulator - could in fact be... wait for it... lying... i.e. he could be making shit up to torment Grimnar. Did that not cross your mind?




emporershand89 said:


> Probably fact. "Index Astartes IV," states that while Guilliman claims he defeated Alpharius it may have been Omegon who died. It is a well known secret there were twin Primarchs of the Legion, but it is unclear which one, or if either of them, died on Eskrador. Therefore I don;t give a damn about what the Inquisitor said; though that might be a lead to start at. I think it is safe two assume, from what the UltraMarine records state, that one of the twins is still alive; though location unknown. As I said before. even Lexicanum supports this fact, read the link for yourself......http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Omegon#fn_2


No this actually conjecture. Now IA: IV was written before the Alpharius/Omegon thing came about. At the time Alpharius was the sole Primarch of the Alpha Legion and it was stated that Gulliman killed him. In the IA article it states that "we have ascertained that the Alpha Legion's command function was spread into numerous groups, ann the loss of one apparently had minimal impact on their operational abilities - even though it was Alpharius who fell." Alpharius having a twin brother is a retcon brought about by the HH BL series so the information with IA:IV in relation to him is suspect. Nowhere in IA:IV does it mention Omegon by name at all. It does not mention Alpharius being a twin at all. It mentions other command groups (plural, not singular like for instance commanded by his twin, plural) this is very different. So no, it's not fact and it's not safe to assume anything Alpharius or Omegon.



emporershand89 said:


> but I'm going to dive into Lexicanum,


Don't rely soley on Lexicanum or Warhammer Wiki for your information, they are go for brief over veiws but if you are going to debate fluff then get page numbers and exact quotes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> The point is this. You had made the below statement.... ....and I disagree. Many of these "Revelations," if you will seem to be fairly recent. I have yet to find any publications from the 90's, or even 80's, that state the idea of these Primarchs ever returning. Back then it was more "They are Gone until the End Times." Now suddenly it seems, with the advent of the Horus Heresy series, that the idea of Primarchs returning is not only plausible, but is being encouraged. Therefore when you tell me there are no new revelations or idea's stating that the Primarchs will return I think your dead wrong. If anything these "Trends," you so rightful claim have been around for some time are rather recent, and no offense but 7 year old puyblications are still fairly recent as far as human history is concerned.


This might be why you're getting confused: M41 is the Time of Ending. 

Also, please could you point out where in the Heresy series (particularly in the last 3 years as you stated above) that the notion of returning loyalist Primarchs is being encouraged?



emporershand89 said:


> Now unless your refutting "Lexicanum," and above mentioned sources; which would turn most arguements here on Heresy invalid. I would suggest then that you call it what you wish; but you tell me how else to find information on Lore. White Dwarf, those "Third Party" website you often scorn me for refering too? Hmpf!!


This is also another issue, Lexicanum is a editable wiki. Therefore anyone can edit the information on there. Quoting Lexicanum in a debate is next-to-useless. By all means use it as a springboard, but don't directly refer to it, or quote information from it, on a forum. 



emporershand89 said:


> Probably fact. "Index Astartes IV," states that while Guilliman claims he defeated Alpharius it may have been Omegon who died. It is a well known secret there were twin Primarchs of the Legion, but it is unclear which one, or if either of them, died on Eskrador. Therefore I don;t give a damn about what the Inquisitor said; though that might be a lead to start at. I think it is safe two assume, from what the UltraMarine records state, that one of the twins is still alive; though location unknown. As I said before. even Lexicanum supports this fact, read the link for yourself......http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Omegon#fn_2


You seem to misunderstand the Eskrador incident - probably because you've read it directly off Lexicanum (and Lexicanum articles are fairly often full of bullshit). The war between the Alpha Legion and Ultramarines on Eskrador does not exist either in official Imperial records or in the Ultramarines' own records. Knowledge of the war comes from Inquisitor Kravin (who apparently discovered the information from a "system earth-ward" near Eskrador). Kravin has since been accused of being an Alpha Legion operative and disappeared under mysterious circumstances - thus calling into question all of the research he committed on the Alpha Legion (which forms the basis for most of what the Imperium knows about the Alpha Legion). 

So, really, you should give a damn about what the Inquisitor said - because all of the information comes solely from him. Even the information of Alpharius' discovery (by Horus) comes from Kravin, and thus is unreliable at best.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

As an aside, given what _Legion_ and 'The Serpent Beneath' revealed to us about Alpharius, Omegon, and the fielding of their lieutenant(s?) to impersonate them even to the extent that their own followers assume them to be the real thing, I sincerely doubt either twin died to the Ultramarines.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is also another issue, Lexicanum is a editable wiki. Therefore anyone can edit the information on there. Quoting Lexicanum in a debate is next-to-useless. By all means use it as a springboard, but don't directly refer to it, or quote information from it, on a forum.


Its worth noting that Inquisitor S, the one running Lexicanum, has actually gone through some decent lengths to make sure you can't just outright edit the information on the site.

A while back someone claimed Lexicanum to be as easy to edit as wikipedia and this is not true. On wikipedia I can go to a page, hit edit, and make changes; on Lexicanum I have to register an account, submit what is essentially a resume, get approved, make an edit, and have someone else sign off on it.

CotE your very knowledgable with the fluff, you should totally register there for the hell of it.:grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> CotE your very knowledgable with the fluff, you should totally register there for the hell of it.:grin:


I got banned from it years ago. :wink:


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, please could you point out where in the Heresy series (particularly in the last 3 years as you stated above) that the notion of returning loyalist Primarchs is being encouraged?


well, Vulkan lives did not help, I have not read the unremembered empire yet, but "perpetual primarchs" did kindle some possibilities and was for me at least new information.

Regarding Alpharius and Omegon,
anawakithingy recently posted some possible spoilers on this site which I will not repeat here. whether one likes him or not he has often been found correct.

I am under the impression that Lexicanum is more often correct than wrong, I agree it is a little dodgy as a reference, but the difference between lexicanum and the actual lore is often smaller that the difference in lore interpretation between authors. My point being that Lexicanum is not all that bad.

That being said, @ emporershand89,
these guys know their fluff, your position in the discussion is similar to that of the IOM at the time of ending, the best you can do is go down kicking


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

emporershand89 said:


> This is....true. However I have spent the last 2 hours at work reading (in addition to getting sucker punched by a Patient who quickly got put into Restraints) up on this to see what the backgeround story is. From my understanding (according to Lexicanum, "Battle of the Fang," novel and a third party website) Fenris has seen two Battle of the Fangs, a Plague of Disbeleif, and a short skirmish between the Wolves of Fenris and the Inquisition. first Fang battle was shortly after the close of events on Terra, at the tail end of M31. The second Battle of the Fang was during M32. The only difference between the two was the manpower and troop types avalaible to the Thousand Sons commanders. The first was purely Astartes, the second involved daemonic units (Daemonic Engines, Rubric Marines, Corrupted Guard, mass amounts of Psykers) that made the fight much more deadlier for the Wolves.


There has been one battle called 'The Battle of the Fang'. That was where Magnus and the Thousand Sons attacked in M32. This was the first time the Fang had been attacked, and the first and last time by the Thousand Sons. 

There have been subsequent occasions when the Fang has been attacked, notably during the Age of Apostasy and by the Inquisition. 

What gave you the impression there have been two 'Battle of the Fang's"? Lexicanum, the source you say you're using, only has one listed; the attack of the Thousand Sons in M32. 



emporershand89 said:


> ....and I disagree. Many of these "Revelations," if you will seem to be fairly recent. I have yet to find any publications from the 90's, or even 80's, that state the idea of these Primarchs ever returning. Back then it was more "They are Gone until the End Times." Now suddenly it seems, with the advent of the Horus Heresy series, that the idea of Primarchs returning is not only plausible, but is being encouraged. Therefore when you tell me there are no new revelations or idea's stating that the Primarchs will return I think your dead wrong. If anything these "Trends," you so rightful claim have been around for some time are rather recent, and no offense but 7 year old publications are still fairly recent as far as human history is concerned.


What revelations are these? As far as I can see neither the fluff for the 6th edition of the game or the recent novels suggest that the Primarchs are returning. Give me specific details and examples, with publication details. 

The fluff from the 90's of course doesn't have anything about the primarchs returning. Neither does the new stuff. Nor is there in fact anything new regarding the state of the primarchs in m40 with the possible exceptions of Omgenon and the Perpetual story line. There have always been loyalist primarchs missing in action (Russ, Vulkan, Corax, the Khan), the Lion slumbering beneath the Rock and Guilliman thought to be healing by the superstitious pilgrims.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There is nothing whatsoever in the Heresy series to support the idea of a loyalist Primarch returning in the current timeline, nor anything to support one being resurrected, in fact in the case of Ferrus Manus made it abundantly clear he's dead(unless you're Lux). As far as it goes, Russ is still set to up and leave his Legion, leaving Bjorn behind, _Battle of the Fang_ supports this, no more indication of when he will return other than 'The Wolf Time', essentially the end of days. Corax has done his experiments and as it stands, is still all set to leave Deliverance saying little else other than 'Nevermore'. The Khan is still set to be captured by the Dark Eldar. Vulkan is still set to vanish, leaving clues behind for his sons, although once again, if anything the Heresy series is taking the opposite route and killing him off again and again, though _Unremembered Empire_ seems to have done away with this horrible plot line at least. Guilliman is still dead, with only suspicious pilgrims believing he could be healing. Sanguinius is still going to be slain by Horus. Dorn is still set to die during the Black Crusade, though as ever, like Guilliman, some believe other wise, but the debate over Dorn and Guilliman is nothing new, it's always been this way.

Nothing new.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'd like to second the increasing reliability of Lexicanum. As an anecdotal aside, I once added a couple of pages for Fallen Dark Angels that were already listed on the main page. All my information was correct, but it was disapproved on the merits of the page following the proper format alone. That's not me griping, mind you; rather, I'm pointing out that those guys are vigilant about what is posted on their website.

As far as the topic of conversation goes, I will offer the single - and admittedly stretched - example that I can think of regarding "primarch resurrection". To me, the Iron Heart from _Angel Exterminatus_ is practically screaming to (A) come to the possession of the Ultramarines, given the plethora of Isstvan survivors flocking to them, and (B) be thrown on to Guilliman right before they put him into stasis.

That would be an exercise in dark humor indeed, though, given that no one in the 41st millennium would even consider switching off Guilliman's stasis field. :wink:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> @Lord of the Night what are your thoughts on this? Do you find it possible that they would escalate the setting to this, and if so, what would your predictions be to the changes that would happen?


No I do not. 40k will always remain on the "two minutes to midnight" cliffhanger that it has always been on. 40k will never go beyond the 13th Black Crusade in the lore. 50k would be an entirely new thing rather than an extension of 40k and it would also invalidate all the build-up that 40k has done to the 13th Crusade, WAAAGH! Armageddon, Hive Fleet Leviathan and all the other myriad threats that are ushering in the Time of Ending. We should never know the outcome of those things or all the other plot-threads that are part of the cliffhanger that has built up around 999.M41 will become less interesting because they wouldn't be suspenseful anymore.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> 3. There will be no new major revelations concerning Cypher if/when his data-slate is released.


Actually I think there will be revelations on Cypher but it will be part of Gav Thorpe's _Legacy of Caliban_ trilogy. I think by the end we'll have either confirmation or definite possibilities to Cypher's identity and hints towards his goal.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually I think there will be revelations on Cypher but it will be part of Gav Thorpe's _Legacy of Caliban_ trilogy. I think by the end we'll have either confirmation or definite possibilities to Cypher's identity and hints towards his goal.


I'll believe it when I see it. 

More cryptic clues and mysteries sure, but I can't imagine there being any major revelations of substance - especially those of a kind that some people in this thread seem to be after.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

First of all, a big thanks to everyone that replied in this thread. It has been very interesting and educational to read all of your replies rearding the topic - Thank you for educating a learner here! 

Although I am a bit sad if it is true, I do see your point Lord of the Night. There has been alot of buildup to this point, which is also why I thought it might escalate further, as otherwise the story seems to end here, beyond the campaigns outside the official story so to speak. I guess I'm just curious as to what the next chapter would be


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It will never advance. The only reasons I believe they would ever do it, is if the company and game was in a terminal decline and therefore doing such a drastic change wouldn't effect the fanbase anyway. CotE, Phoebus and others have all elaborated much more already on the main reasons why.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You should look on the entire franchise as a History lesson. It moves to explain past events that have led to 40k, but never past. So unless someone buys and revamps the storyline, this is it.


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## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I got banned from it years ago. :wink:


By the Gods, tis' a conspiracy!

Also, to summarize very quickly and generally, it's like the United States today. How we got here, why/when whatever floats your boat of history and the happenings. But nowadays, people just work jobs and carry on with their lives, while the Federal Gov't does it things that seem to have no immediate effect.

Thus, the M41 is best like current day America. Why don't we go past it? Same reason why next year nothing "big" will happen unless we ourselves do something.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Exactly. They still have the vast, vast majority of 10,000 years of history to expand upon. The Scoruing, the Age of Apostasy, Reign of Blood, the previous Black Crusades, the Macharian Crusade etc etc etc.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

The 40k plot will not move forward until after GW goes out of business.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

I have a greater chance of sleeping with Kate Upton than your idea has of coming to pass.


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm fairly charming, so you have a slight chance, but she and I don't really run in the same social circles so we're unlikely to meet in the first place.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Now, don't get me wrong, I'm fairly charming, so you have a slight chance, but she and I don't really run in the same social circles so we're unlikely to meet in the first place.


That's never been a problem for me..... :crazy:


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> The 40k plot will not move forward until after GW goes out of business.


I have been thinking about this. I thinking given GW's slow move over the editions to more of a 'Story Driven game" if they carry on down this path, we may see some movement. But GW change directions quite often.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Uveron said:


> I have been thinking about this. I thinking given GW's slow move over the editions to more of a 'Story Driven game" if they carry on down this path, we may see some movement. But GW change directions quite often.



If you want a plot that moves, switch to Warmachine/Hordes.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> If you want a plot that moves, switch to Warmachine/Hordes.


Well Yes, and this 'will' be why GW make the move to move the plot forward! 

Warmachine started in 2003. This was the age of the internet, it allows to much easier push plot changes as everyones stories are allot more tied together. 40K, started much before the online community grew into the force it is today. 

Telling a Global Narrative, even a very slow one will be a great selling point for the hobby and something we could see when they appoint a new CEO.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Uveron said:


> Telling a Global Narrative, even a very slow one will be a great selling point for the hobby and something we could see when they appoint a new CEO.


They've tried it before with mixed to meh results. You had the Eye of Terror global campaign, which has since been retconned to not have happened (due to the thirteenth black crusade not having happened yet in the current timeline.) Then there was the fall of Medusa V, which was a complete and utter disaster due to being handled so poorly. There have also been similar things for fantasy, but that is on a considerably smaller scale (a single world versus an entire galaxy.)


Others have said this in the past over and over, though why others refuse to listen to it I will never know. 40k takes place roughly ten thousand years after the events of the Horus Heresy, an event which tore humanity at its height apart and was built on the recent collapse of the Eldar empire. We have barely scratched the surface of the years between that and the present, so why _must_ we move the setting forward?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

darkreever said:


> We have barely scratched the surface of the years between that and the present, so why _must_ we move the setting forward?


I want the Age of Apostasy..... :so_happy:


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