# Purpose of each Primarch



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

With the new book it is apparent the emperor crafted each primarch with a specific functional purpose.

Now for speculation, I think the emperor suspected some of his sons would turn on him one day, thus he created two primarchs for each role he needed to be filled, a back up for each one so to speak.

The Heir - Horus and maybe Sanguinas?

One to build his defenses - Perturbo

One to Command his armies - Magnus (input into the golden throne)/The executed legion (I believe the executed legion was similar to Magnus, in that they had great psyker powers but misused them perhaps or went too far into chaos.)

One to guard the hearth - Dorn 

One to watch the distant perimeter - Guilliman/ maybe the lion?

One to control the Intelligences - Alpharius/Corax

One to be his executioner - Russ/Curze (Night Haunter)

But you see where I'm going with this? I think there was a loyal and traitor primarch (2 total), who was designed for each purpose, so if one turned the other would still be able to take the place.


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

Corax-emo son
Horus-Favourite son that went bad
Guilliman-2nd favourite but became no.1 after HH
Vulkan-The son who burned down the emporer's hover hummer
White scars guy-The martial arts obsessed sone
Sanguinius-The "Special" one.
Cruze, or whatever he's called-emo like corax
Argorn (sorry about this I'm useless with spelling their names)- The violent kid, the emperor would always get a call from his school saying he is in trouble.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I think it was more likely Guilliman to command the armies, what with all his work on the codex astartes and all.


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

^^This. Personally I think it's a shame the Night Lords turned to Chaos, them and the Raven Guard would make a kick-ass combo.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

Jerushee said:


> I think there was a loyal and traitor primarch (2 total), who was designed for each purpose, so if one turned the other would still be able to take the place.


This

Most of the loyal Primarchs seemingly have an 'evil' counterpart on the chaos side. The sensible ones and those who took their virtues to the extreme. That might explain why they ended up on the wrong side of things anyway.

It always struck me that the Emperor created an abundance of Primarchs, just to be on the safe side.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

By the way guys those Jerushee posted are actually from Propsero Burns, the primarch themselves not names, but the categories were, the only one listed being Russ as the Executioner.

I took it as:

One to be the heir to the Emperors Throne: Magnus, how Russ would be able to quote that i don't know, but we know the Emperor intended to have Magnus sit on the Golden Throne

One to fortify the defences of the Imperium: Dorn, argueably Perturabo aswell, but seeing as Dorn was the one chosen to fortify the Emperors palace i would say him.

One to guard the hearth: I would see that as Guilliman perhaps, seeing as his is the largest Legion and best suited to guard a large portion of the Imperium, though this could apply to many. Of course that could be Perturabo aswell seeing as the Iron Warriors were used as a garrison force.

One to watch the distant perimeter: This could apply to quite alot of them really, again maybe the Ultramarines being as they are so large. But again could be any really

One to command the armies: Clearly Horus seeing as he actually did give him command of the armies

One to control intelligences: Another clear one, Alpharius, through and through

And of course Russ being the Executioner as quoted by himself.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I think perhaps Lion or Horus may have been designated to command his armies. Horus was a stalwart warrior and general yes, but did he have it to lead an imperium and shoulder all the administrative duties? It is questionable, as it describes him in CV as the pressures and burdens of the administrative duties begin to wear on him

I think perhaps Lion and horus were the two made to lead the armies, maybe even magnus from the golden throne.

The heir maybe it was papa G, as he was able to run his own sub system, or papa G may have also been the one in charge of watching the edge of the system seeing as his kingom is on the eastern fringe


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Jerushee said:


> I think perhaps Lion or Horus may have been designated to command his armies. Horus was a stalwart warrior and general yes, but did he have it to lead an imperium and shoulder all the administrative duties? It is questionable, as it describes him in CV as the pressures and burdens of the administrative duties begin to wear on him


Thats because like all of the primarchs, Horus was a superhuman being whisked away before the Emperor had a chance to raise him as such. Instead, the primarchs were brought to various worlds and raised by humans as humans, for the most part.

This means that their full intended potential may not have been achieved, or it would take a period of time for them to achieve it in which they tended to fall back on human characteristics that they should not have had. 

Maybe the role of leader was always intended for Horus, and had the Emperor had him from the get-go then he would never have developed the human traits that may have become his burden in some duties.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry but Horus is clearly the one designated to lead his armies, as again he DID it, he did give him full command of his armies, and who knows, if chaos failed in their plans to corrupt him he may very well have settled into his role as warmaster. And even disregarding this, Sanguinius would also be a heavy contender, Horus himself believing it should have been him. Regardless, its still Horus. 

As for the heir, again Magnus, as that was the Emperors full intentions aswell, we know this, Magnus was literally inteded to inherit the golden throne


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

The Heir - Magnus & maybe the executed legion. I speculate that the legion that was eradicated by the Wolf King may have been a psyker legion similar to Magnus' legion. I speculate this due to that aside from the space wolves being designated as the anti astartes legion, they also seem to be the anti psyker legion. Perhaps the primarch of the "sanctioned legion of time past" was one of the contenders for the heir position as well.

One to build his defenses - Dorn

One to Command his armies - Horus and Sanguinas

One to guard the hearth - If this is alluding to Terra then Dorn, however I interpreted it as alluding to "protecting the worlds of the imperium", thus I feel it was perturbo who was created for it. To use his legion to safeguard the imperial worlds, as his legion was used for garrisoning.

One to watch the distant perimeter - I feel this was Guilliman, due to that he had a large army, superb administrative skills, and his base of operations was on the galactic fringe. Thus he could act as a second imperium for sustained long term operations, to watch the perimeter.

One to control the Intelligences - Alpharius/Corax - Both delt with intelligence in one way or another.

One to be his executioner - Russ/Curze (Night Haunter) - Russ was confirmed as the Emperor's executioner, his anti astartes. However with the theme of two primarchs per role, I feel Curze (haunter) was also originally planned for this. As Curze was asked by the emperor to become his monster, to be what he could not be in the public, to be brutal, and do what ever he needed done. I believe similar to Russ, that Curze if asked by the emperor to kill a fellow primarch would do so, perhaps he was responsible for the other missing legion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Night Haunters legion was particularly effective against soft targets like unruly human populations. However, that wouldn't be so against astartes.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I have heard these stances on the Nightlords being less effective versus other legions, however I have never found any in book or in fluff material to objectively back this up. What I have seen, are individuals state they in theory should be less effective, due to astartes being mentally indoctrined to being fearless.

However I take into consideration that when nighthaunter fought Dorn's honor guard, he induced such fear into them, that they completely broke down in all form of command, structure and mental process.

I'm not one of the fans who buys into the "nightlords are weaker versus other astartes", there is just not enough in fluff evidence for me to buy into the theory. By that same token of regard, the ravenguard should be less effective versus other legions due to astartes being trained in covert warfare. Similarily, the spacewolves should in theory be less effective in combat due to other legions being trained to deal with animalistic and brutal close quarters fighting as well as being tracked and ambushed by pack strategies.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> I'm not one of the fans who buys into the "nightlords are weaker versus other astartes", there is just not enough in fluff evidence for me to buy into the theory. By that same token of regard, the ravenguard should be less effective versus other legions due to astartes being trained in covert warfare. Similarily, the spacewolves should in theory be less effective in combat due to other legions being trained to deal with animalistic and brutal close quarters fighting as well as being tracked and ambushed by pack strategies.


Thats a primarch, their abilities aren't just due to training; they are partially of the warp.

It would be less effective, not totally ineffective. They could kill them, but they are meant to pacify and contain, not totally destroy. This is clear by their use during the crusade. 

The ability to cause rampant fear within marines would be severely reduced compared to their use on human targets. Raven Guard are the masters of stealth, true, they would be less effective, but not by any considerable margin. Shear brute force is seem to be more effective against a legion.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I think the best I can do at the moment would be, to agree to disagree 

When the HH book on the DarkAngels encounter with the Nightlords comes out, perhaps we will gain a greater insight to how effective, or ineffective the nightlords are versus other legions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't think the Primarchs were created with such trivial purposes in mind (perhaps with the sole exception of Magnus). For the most part the nature and mind-set of each Primarch was solely created, or at least solidified by their individual experiences on their respective homeworlds, not by the creation process itself.



Jerushee said:


> I'm not one of the fans who buys into the "nightlords are weaker versus other astartes"


Nor me, it's a baseless theory.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

We are just going off quotes from Prospero Burns, sure they may not have been, but whilst Russ and co speculate, so can we ^^

I don't believe the Night Lords would be any weaker against Astartes either. I think it stems from the belief that their terror tactics would not be as effective against astartes, therefore taking away one of their strengths, but this would make them no weaker.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Nor me, it's a baseless theory.


Not necessarily. Marines are trained to be more resistant to mental stressors than your average trooper, correct? They have also been brought up form a relatively young age( 6 sound right?) to fight and die for the emperor. These two factors would mean that the Night Lords terror tactics, which relay on the continued application of stress to degrade the intended victims reasoning and decision making abilities, would be less effective when used on a marine. To what degree? I don't know. We will have to wait till later in the heresy for the information to come to light. But, until such a time comes, we will just have to agree to disagree, as the OP suggested.

At AoB,
No one said weaker, or at least didn't intend on giving that impression. I simply meant that their tactic of choice would be less effective than a force such as the wolves, who are trained to use rapid brutal strikes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Not necessarily. Marines are trained to be more resistant to mental stressors than your average trooper, correct? They have also been brought up form a relatively young age( 6 sound right?) to fight and die for the emperor. These two factors would mean that the Night Lords terror tactics, which relay on the continued application of stress to degrade the intended victims reasoning and decision making abilities, would be less effective when used on a marine. To what degree? I don't know. We will have to wait till later in the heresy for the information to come to light. But, until such a time comes, we will just have to agree to disagree, as the OP suggested.


Indeed. But psychological warfare could still be a defining factor in inter-Astartes warfare. It's not merely terror tactics that the Night Lords excel in, but the very large umbrella term of psychological warfare. Do Astartes maintain a psychology that can be exploited? Yes.

And no _gen_ you personally didn't say (or mean) 'weaker'. But many less informed individuals (notably in those dreaded verus threads that clotter up the forums from time to time) do. They outright state that because Astartes are resistant to certain psychological effects that the Night Lords would automatically be defeated, which is of course absurd.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed. But psychological warfare could still be a defining factor in inter-Astartes warfare. It's not merely terror tactics that the Night Lords excell in, but the very large umbrella term of psychological warfare. Do Astartes maintain a psychology that can be exploited? Yes.


While I will concede that phycological warfare could play its role, I will disagree that it would be the clincher. I don't see it as the major game changer for an inter-astartes conflict. All forms of phycological warfare still depend on mental stressors. However, pre-heresy legions could be more susceptible to those due to the presence of the primarchs; I suppose if you could make a legion believe they had lost their primarch, you could break their will. Although I would point to the battle for Prospero where the Thousand Sons legion fought on with as much, if not more vigor after their primarch had, for all intents and purposes, abandoned them.

That being said, I still don't see them a the "cleaner". Their tactics seem more suited to pacification and containment of uppity civilian populations rather than a "cleaner" force.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

To the question directly: If there was anything that discerned the primarchs from another (powers, abilities, characteristics) they got manipulated with during their upbringings. 

However, I think the primarchs formed their different characteristics when they were pulled by the warp and each tampered with. I almost think they were still in the stages of development when they were pulled. And we don't know how long it was since they were pulled from the Emperor's chambers and when they landed on their respective planets. 

As to the astartes being better than other astartes, I don't think its the astartes that are better than astartes persae. I think it should be recognized by their abilites. For example: Terror tactics, not as effective as using heavy weapons and tecnology against the astartes armor. Also, I wouldn't say the Night Lords are only terror tactics alone. It seemed as though they used gorilla warfare with a great arsenal of weapons. Where the Night Lords use superior close combat gorilla warfare.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

The Night Lords could have been the Emperors weapon agains Imperial Army or worlds that have rebelled as they would have been more susceptible to fear.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I think that there's plenty of room in each of the titles for different takes. 'The Executioner' can refer both to an individual tasked with taken out other legions/primarchs or with soldiers and common people. While the Space Wolves might be ideal for the first task, the Night Lords are undeniably the masters of the second. 

But I think it's important to realize how little say the Emperor had in the ultimate personalities of his sons. Regardless of how much personality he coded into them, they were all ultimately products of their upbringings. In this respect it is important to look at what little we know of Curze from _before_ he became the Night Haunter. From _First Heretic_ we see that he instinctively arms himself, and that he is unique amongst his brothers in doing so. This indicates a level of aggression not seen even in Angron. Secondly, it seems likely that he was pre-programed to respond poorly to others, I find it hard to believe that he would not even try to approach society openly otherwise. These two factors indicate fairly clearly in my mind that someone intended Curze to be a weapon against society. One incapable or unwilling to form attachments but perfectly willing to kill. Whether this was the Emperor designing a Executioner or the Gods fashioning a tool, is difficult (if not impossible) to say.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

As for the other guys we could have; 
Fulgrim be the Imperium's fashion police
Vulkan or Ferrus be the smithy
Lorgar preaching (of course)


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't think that the primarchs had a initial role programmed into them, i think its along the lines of them being forced to fill that role by either the Emperah or the conditions on their homeworld.

It would have been stupid to have only 1 legion specialised in any role, would have been better to have a couple of legions specialised in each role but still with the capabilities to fight as a regular mobile force. As a rule of thumb, never over specialise.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> While I will concede that phycological warfare could play its role, I will disagree that it would be the clincher.


That's why I said _'could'_. In some circumstances mastery of psychological warfare in inter-Astartes warfare could tip the balance.



gen.ahab said:


> I don't see it as the major game changer for an inter-astartes conflict.


With very little difference between Astartes forces in terms of combat prowess, it could well be the little things that could potentially tip the balance. Little things such as being able to psychologically manipulate the opposing Astartes, perhaps into rash actions for examples.



gen.ahab said:


> All forms of phycological warfare still depend on mental stressors. However, pre-heresy legions could be more susceptible to those due to the presence of the primarchs; I suppose if you could make a legion believe they had lost their primarch, you could break their will. Although I would point to the battle for Prospero where the Thousand Sons legion fought on with as much, if not more vigor after their primarch had, for all intents and purposes, abandoned them.


That is just one example of psychological manipulation that could effect on varying scales the Astartes.



MEQinc said:


> In this respect it is important to look at what little we know of Curze from _before_ he became the Night Haunter. From _First Heretic_ we see that he instinctively arms himself, and that he is unique amongst his brothers in doing so. This indicates a level of aggression not seen even in Angron. Secondly, it seems likely that he was pre-programed to respond poorly to others, I find it hard to believe that he would not even try to approach society openly otherwise. These two factors indicate fairly clearly in my mind that someone intended Curze to be a weapon against society. One incapable or unwilling to form attachments but perfectly willing to kill. Whether this was the Emperor designing a Executioner or the Gods fashioning a tool, is difficult (if not impossible) to say.


That is an interesting point. It would be interesting to wonder whether it would have been the Emperor's or the chaos' influence which made Curze instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw society.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It probably was a combination of basic personality traits and a basic human need to defend itself. So, I would wager it was more the emperors doing, depending upon whether or not the emperor was that involved in their programming.... Chances are he was.


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## AngronRedAngel (Jan 29, 2011)

*No such thing as good or bad primarchs !*

Lets take a real world look at all these guys for a second... Theyre 20 kids with no mom and a dead beat dad that put them out alone across the galaxy. They have no role models, and no loving homes. They all had the same capacity for kindness and cruelty. Some grew up on civilized worlds like Guilliman and Dorn, and learned that you cant kill EVERYTHING you dont get along with. Guys like Angron and Night Haunter/Konrad Curze, grew up in shitty neighbourhoods where you had to kill to survive. 

The Space Wolves wrought just as much carnage and more compared to the Night Lords, though Russ is a hero, and NH a monster...

PS: The Night Haunter was kind of a head case, but he did grew up on a planet where 99% lived in fear of the rich 1%. Since fear was the tool they ruled with, he used fear against them, killing each "bad person" in the most brutal way, showing everyone that it only takes one person to change the world for the better, and that no one should live in fear. the quote was " He was what the fledgeling Imperium needed most at the time. Beset by aliens and rebels alike, he was the Emperor's loyal monster, a symbol of fear to all who stood against the dream of mankind". 

Point is, it was the cultures that taught them about "humanity", each different in the teachings and lessons, that made them who they were, not the Chaos Gods. They were already ready to commit when the gods called to them, as that was how they had lived all their days already.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc,

Agree to disagree. Angron was said to be found surrounded by dead alien corpses when he was first found on his unknown planet. Primarchs are remarkable individuals, capable of growing into adulthood within a scant few years, and of absorbing tremendous amounts of information in a very short period of time. I'm gonna go with the idea that self-preservation was one of those bits that came inherently to them. The _Chaotic vision_ of the Haunter may also have been apocryphal--and playing unto the pre-conceived notions Argel-Tal had of the Primarchs as he knew them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

AngronRedAngel said:


> The Space Wolves wrought just as much carnage and more compared to the Night Lords, though Russ is a hero, and NH a monster...


Russ and the Wolves were nothing like Kurze and the Night Lords. The Wolves didn't even begin to approach the levels the Night Lords went to.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

One to build his defenses - Dorn/Perturbo

One to Command his armies: Horus/ The lion

One to guard the hearth (i.e sit on the throne)-Magnus
(i.e humanity is a fire that must not go out)-
Sanguinuis/lorgar

One to watch the distant perimeter - Guilliman/Fulgrim

One to control the Intelligences - Corax/Alpharius

One to be his executioner - Russ/Angron



I could see Angron being the "backup" exectuioner: the Big E orders it so and the world eaters descend and massacre anything they face.

Also I still think the clue to "guarding the hearth" is quite cryptic....


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

personally speaking each primarch is a product of his upbringing and most of the primarchs had a father figure with the exception of Curze and Angron of which little is known. 
Horus was rediscovered by his father and still at an age that he could learn and fought alongside him before the others were found which would explain the bond between the two being as such that the only logical choice in the emperors mind for his hier was Horus. Of all the primarchs he had worked and learnt alongside thier "father" on a more initimate level then his brothers.
I always saw Sang as the councillor, case in point being that the angel seemed to be the one that always had a level head and a few wise words for those around him and in the earlier HH books that is evident as Horus starts his role as warmaster more effectively and advises him on changing his legions name from Lunar Wolves to the Sons of Horus.
There was something about Fulgrim that made him the only primarch and his sons allowed to bear the Aquilla on thier armour, a matter of much pride in all the Emperors Children and i suspect a constination when they every now and then brought that little nugget of information up to the other legions....so what i can wear daddies symbol on my armour and my sons, you can't na na na na....
As for Angron and Curze, it is documented that if a planetary system fell to disorder the moment they got a wiff of the World Eaters or Night Lords entering thier system they would surrender rather then face the wrath of the two violence enduced Leigons. 
the Night Lords work on the fact that fear is thier allie not thier master and they do make quite a master degree of using fear as thier allie whereas the World Eaters were go in cut anything down that moved and maybe keep battereing the bodies with thier soggy ripped off limbs just to make sure, seeing as thier psycho induced bereserker rages kinda made them like that. 
if i was a plaentary governor i know who i would rather face...the poster boys rather then the berserked warriors of Angron.
My point is this really, Horus of all the Primarchs was closer to the Emperor in ways that the others werent so therefore he was the natural choice as leader of the vast crusade that it was. 
Russ seemed to be akin to the Interal affairs department, the emperor unleashing him against magnus seemed to be evident of that, he was savage and he would have no qualms about bringing a brother leigon to heel (no pun intended) 
Curze and Angron were both the troubleshooters, if a planet went awry just send curze or angron in then said palnet would learn a big big lesson onto whos the real daddy.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

OrdoMalleus said:


> ...
> One to watch the distant perimeter - Guilliman/Fulgrim
> One to control the Intelligences - Corax/Alpharius


Interestingly, though...



... from what we see in "Prospero Burns", it is _Fulgrim_ that appears to be in the thick of intelligence, espionage, etc.




gothik said:


> Curze and Angron were both the troubleshooters, if a planet went awry just send curze or angron in then said palnet would learn a big big lesson onto whos the real daddy.


The problem with this logic, though, is that Russ claims the Emperor had specific purposes in mind for his Primarchs... and Angron and the Night Haunter were shaped into individuals by factors beyond the Emperor's control.

In other words, it's hard to argue that the Emperor intended for Angron to be this terror-weapon when the very reason why he's a great terror weapon is because he's psychotic and imbalanced due to implants the Emperor never intended for him.

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The problem with this logic, though, is that Russ claims the Emperor had specific purposes in mind for his Primarchs... and Angron and the Night Haunter were shaped into individuals by factors beyond the Emperor's control.
> 
> In other words, it's hard to argue that the Emperor intended for Angron to be this terror-weapon when the very reason why he's a great terror weapon is because he's psychotic and imbalanced due to implants the Emperor never intended for him.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Regardless of what intention or purpose the Emperor had in mind for each Primarch, that all kind of went out of the window with the scattering. The Primarchs became products of their upbringing and the conditions/society of their new homeworlds. The Emperor either adapted the roles of each of the Primarchs (if they even had particular roles at all) or attempted to keep their originally intended purposes (which may have had varying consequences). That's how I see it anyway, and also I see the scattering as one of the main reasons why half of the Primarchs were able to be corrupted in the first place.


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## .Kevin. (Jan 10, 2011)

I could see Sanguinius being a negociator/embassador for the Emperor just because he wasn't perfect plus he did usually give advice out and did try to get Horus back before he was killed.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Trouble is that most of the Primarchs have redundant traits or traits shared by one another.

Dorn/Pertuabo
Lion/Alpharius/Horus
Angron/Curze
Sanguinius/Fulgrim

etc.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

either way and whatever people think or concieve COTE has it right, it all went out the window the day of the scattering so whatever traits he had programmed for want of a better word into thier dna was kanckered the day they went out into space and shot wherever they were. 
I don't doubt that the emperor did not want angron to be psychotic however that is what happened to him due to the scattering and the same with curze still its and interesting thread,


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## Bigmits (Jan 13, 2010)

I always took it as each Primarch representing a different aspect of the emps psyche which suited them being assigned various roles as opposed to them being designed for various tasks in the first place.

Gullimon - Leadership
Russ - Ruthlessness
Angron - Rage
Curze - Dark evil side
Horus - Ambition
Fulgrim - Perfectionism
Lion - Strategic/logic
Magnus - Thirst for knowledge
etc


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

How would that work, since Angron's rage isn't a feature of the Emperor--but due to implants grafted unto his brain.

The same holds for pretty much every other Primarch you mentioned as well; their traits are due to the circumstances that shaped them in whatever planet they landed on...


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## Bigmits (Jan 13, 2010)

maybe the planet they were raised on brought forward that particular trait and amplified it


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Bigmits said:


> maybe the planet they were raised on brought forward that particular trait and amplified it


that would fit too and especialy in the case of curze and Lorgar.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Bigmits,

Sorry, don't buy it. Agree to disagree, I guess... I just don't see the evidence for it, personally. 

Cheers,
P.


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## imperialfist13 (Feb 2, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Sorry but Horus is clearly the one designated to lead his armies, as again he DID it, he did give him full command of his armies, and who knows, if chaos failed in their plans to corrupt him he may very well have settled into his role as warmaster. And even disregarding this, Sanguinius would also be a heavy contender, Horus himself believing it should have been him. Regardless, its still Horus.
> 
> As for the heir, again Magnus, as that was the Emperors full intentions aswell, we know this, Magnus was literally inteded to inherit the golden throne


We all know that Horus was the one the Emperor picked to Carry on his crusade, but we have all questioned over the years was this solely because he was found first and spent 20 years at the emps side. As the Lion "astutely" recognises is Fallen Angels. Maybe Horus was meant to be his General or more likely Bureaucratic leader. That his achievements are lauded as the best is skewed by him being first found and was in all likelyhood ourstripped in accomplishments by Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion.
Also of the Primarchs Dorn and Guilliman are already in command of armies, Horus never was at the time of being found, and the Lion in charge of a Knightly Order. So who knows the original roles they would of fulfilled if they hadnt by primarchnapped, as I personally couldnt see Horus being that far ahead as he is portrayed in the books if they all grew up together in the Emperors presence.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, we actually don't know what Horus was up to in Cthonia, do we?

On the other hand, is there a quote that says the Emperor intended certain roles for certain Primarchs _before_ they were lost? Because if the roles were assigned as he was finding them, and on an "as needed" basis, then the argument of "who was really meant to be general" is rendered moot.

Horus thus would have gotten the gig because he was found first, had the most experience and had no real negative characteristics, period. It would have been a completely different deal had _Angron_ been found first, for example. In that case, I'm sure the Emperor would have relegated the duties of "#1 General" to another Primarch (ANY other Primarch) long before Ullanor.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How did the accomplishments of Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion outstrip Horus? He had the most victories of all the Primarchs, he was an incredible diplomat, his tactical mind was brilliant, he had fought numerous times by the Emperors side, even saving the Emperors life!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think the argument goes that Horus had the most victories because he had been around the longest. Dorn was the seventh found, and the Lion was found with only fifty years left in the Great Crusade, and yet their record approached this. This is quite remarkable, especially for the Lion.

Given this, and the fact that that both Dorn and the Lion were said to be tactically and strategically brilliant as well, some argue that Horus was not necessarily the "best" per se... but that, when you boil it down to the 3-4 "best general" Primarchs, he had been around the longest.

Personally, I would say the top 3-4 "general" Primarchs (Horus, Lion, Dorn, Guiliman) were equals. I think that the Lion shows incredibly strategic AND tactical insight in figuring out the best way to prevent Horus from achieving his ultimate objective. But then Horus shows incredible strategic acumen as well, in maneuvering forces where he needs them and in manipulating situations to meet his aims. Guiliman remains kind of an unknown quality to me, mostly because we haven't really seen him. Dorn I place as "fourth among equals". He strikes me as too specialized, and too emotional.

And, again, absent any flaws in his character, why sack the guy with a proven record and nothing but victories in his name?


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