# *Best* space marines unit configurations?!



## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

I was reading http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/search?q=repetition and http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/, and it struck me that in list after list we see the same basic elements, and in competitive lists those tend to be configured in certain 'most efficient' ways. That makes sense, because all lists need to cover the same list of jobs. Something to deal with heavy armour, something for light, something to deal with horde, etc. I noticed that people keep repeating the work of figuring out what configuration is best for each job, when they don't need to. I realised that a simpler approach to list building will be to have preconfigured building blocks. That is simpler, because instead of finely configuring each tactical squad (as an example) you just think about the role you need and slot in the best off-the-shelf unit. This pushes your focus onto the functional army as a whole, rather than repeating work already done to find the best setup for each component. Better still, you can avoid bad picks (there are no bad picks in terms of what you like to field, but bad in terms of efficacy) because the preconfigured element will be very good for its job - having benefited from the vast amount of testing the player pool can do compared to any one person. A simple example, Long-fangs with 4x ML and plasmabacks are one of the most efficient heavy elements SW can take. They appear in list after list. If you don't know about them, some of your SW lists will be less fighty than they could be, and besides, you shouldn't have to redo that thinking process. Your question should be 'do I need that job done, and should it be done in heavy FOC slots' rather than 'I wonder how I should setup my Long-fangs for a ranged support role?'

So this is all leading to a tactica I'll be posting for VSM of basic utility elements. For example, my tactical squad elements need some work. I've found two really great configurations from playing/experimenting



> 5-man, plasmaback 165pts
> 10-man, MM, flamer, rhino 205pts (but I think this can be improved on)


The first is great for MSU. It maximises your 1+1 picks. The latter is very solid in most lists. It combat squads neatly (MM stays in the rhino), it creates useful avoidance zones that affect your opponent's movement. Or if you keep the 10-man squad together it is very tough to budge off objectives. You can spend more points on either unit, but you have to fix in your mind that those points come at an opportunity cost. The plasmaback squad will not perform much better for having a PF on the veteran sgt: those points can be spent for more benefit elsewhere.

In strict terms of efficiency there really are only a limited number of 'good' configurations of the tactical squad, and a much larger number of bad ones. Knowing those saves you time, meaning you can spend that time on better and more creative lists.

So I'd love to see what preconfigured elements others can propose. The jobs I've so far defined are dealing with

Heavy armour (Av13-14)
Light armour (AV10-12)
Heavy infantry (TEq)
Horde
MCs
Influence enemy movement
Influence enemy deployment
Longevity
Psychic defence
Scoring
HQ
1+1 (FOC maxing)


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Going on this I think This :

Librarian-Epistolary armed in terminator armour and SS-190 points

Backed up by:

10 man Tactical Squad-includes a plasma cannon and a meltagun, Sargeant has a Combi-flamer and a Thunder Hammer-about 250 points max

Riding in a Razorback with TLL-75.

These are scoring, have a HQ, Can deal with any armou, have plenty to thin out hordes and TEQ (remember plasma cannons are blast weapons), have psychic protection in the for of the hood. Has a force weapon for MC's and the fact with careful use of powers can influence how close or far away to set up. I personally would choose the Avenger and Force Dome. Since this also helps with hordes and MEQ and the other gives them an invulnerable. Always handy when trying to avoid death.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

vonklaude said:


> Heavy armour (Av13-14) Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas, Bikes with Meltas, or Meltabunker tactical squads in Rhinos
> Light armour (AV10-12) Rifleman Dreads
> Heavy infantry (TEq) Plasma-maxed squads
> Horde Bolters, Storm Bolters, Missile Launchers, Assault Cannons etc.
> ...


I don't really get what the question is. What's the best thing in the Marines book to deal with everything? Well, there's more than one unit for a reason. So, I've just put what I think is the best per category in green.

Midnight


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

The question is to get to specific setups for each element, although as a stepping stone to that your list of what unit types are best at each job is an excellent foundation. One starts to see that while there are vastly many possible arrangements of units from the Codex, only a relatively small subset of arrangements are functionally ideal. The *rifleman* is a great example. Of all the arrangements I could have for a dread, TLAC/TLAC is highly efficient for several roles at 125pts. *Meltabunker Tax* as you say are another great example. At 205pts MM/flamer, rhino, is a really solid setup. Melta is almost always relevant. The 10-man unit in a can is hard to dislodge off objectives. It can even deal with hordes.

HQ is interesting. A librarian is psychic defence _and_ HQ. One has to understand what else a captain brings in order to favour captain as HQ. That might be reached through understanding what a biker-captain, or a command squad, might bring. A plasma-maxed squad for Teq for example. This then means that the 'element' becomes 'captain + command squad + 4xPG + rhino (say), at 310pts'.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Basically what you're talking about is powergaming and getting people to choose units purely because it's the best thing out there and nothing else will do. Fundamentally you are taking the fun side out of gaming and earning the Spehs Muhreenz even more hate than they already get as there is no originality in any list. Suit yourself if you want to go along with this but I'm not gonna become one of those sad little guys who sits in a dark room all day writing power-gamer lists.


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Basically what you're talking about is powergaming and getting people to choose units purely because it's the best thing out there and nothing else will do. Fundamentally you are taking the fun side out of gaming and earning the Spehs Muhreenz even more hate than they already get as there is no originality in any list. Suit yourself if you want to go along with this but I'm not gonna become one of those sad little guys who sits in a dark room all day writing power-gamer lists.


I like both fluffy lists and competitive lists, but in a forum about 40k tactics it is appropriate to be discussing ways to do better. That's the point of tactics. It is a reality of the game system that some units/unit-configurations are better than others. Understanding what those are means having to think less about them, and more about the functional purpose(s) of your overall list.

More than powergaming, it's really part of taking thought about the game to another level. The best critique of a list - any list, fluffy or competitive - is understanding how it functions as an overall machine. Often one sees that the parts contain numerous faults that interfere with that overall machine. Well, I know not everyone thinks about games in the way I do. If you're uncomfortable with this sort of analysis fair enough


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I say again, you can take more than one unit for a reason.*Synergy is the key!* Take two Tactical Squads, one melta-maxed to deal with the tanks, and one with Missile Launcher/Flamer to kill hordes. If you take two squads with Multi-Melta, Flamer and Combi-Plasma you'll always be wasting at least one of your squad's guns. Take one with Multi-Melta, Meltagun and Combi-Melta and one with the ML/Flamer combo and you can concentrate your fire on specific targets, wasting fewer shots and therefore being more effective overall.

TH/SS Terminators are great, but they need support from Tactical Squads, Scouts, normal Terminators etc. to stop them crumbling agaisnt hordes due to weight of attacks. Conversely, the Tactical Squad can kill hordes fairly easily (Not the best in the codex, but they're Troops. They're not meant to do great things) but needs the TH/SS Terminators to kill Trygons/Deff Dreads/Avatars etc. Thus, one unit benefits the other and vice versa.

Sorry if this seems like stating the obvious, I just don't really understand. What's the best unit to deal with everything? Well, nothing. The game would be absolutely crap if there was a single unit to be you HQ, Anti-Tank, Anti-Horde, Suppression Fire, Psychic Defence and Scoring unit.

Midnight


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Sorry if this seems like stating the obvious, I just don't really understand. What's the best unit to deal with everything? Well, nothing. The game would be absolutely crap if there was a single unit to be you HQ, Anti-Tank, Anti-Horde, Suppression Fire, Psychic Defence and Scoring unit.
> 
> Midnight


I should explain better. The goal is not to find one unit to deal with everything. The goal is to find a list of units in ideal configurations matched to roles, so that if say your army needs anti-horde in a troops slot you can take the pre-configured unit and use that.

I've made a good start on a list an when time permits I'll post up the tactica. Meanwhile I just want to collect good unit configurations. Many of them of course are already widely known, but some are less obvious like *CTL40K's* Typhoon with MM. (Still not sure about that one.)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

vonklaude said:


> I should explain better. The goal is not to find one unit to deal with everything. The goal is to find a list of units in ideal configurations matched to roles, so that if say your army needs anti-horde in a troops slot you can take the pre-configured unit and use that.
> 
> I've made a good start on a list an when time permits I'll post up the tactica. Meanwhile I just want to collect good unit configurations. Many of them of course are already widely known, but some are less obvious like *CTL40K's* Typhoon with MM. (Still not sure about that one.)


Some units are equally good, or hotly debaed. Buggies and Deffkoptas, for instance. Obviously there are some obvious choices for an army, but to be honest I think that what you're trying to do is already in place in Tournament lists: How many Space Marine armies that play competitively don't have either TH/SS Terminators, Sternguard, or Riflemen? How many competitive Ork lists do you see lacking KFF Meks? I like the idea, but I think it's a bit pointless. It also makes army-building quite point-and-click.

Some units are competitive for some armies and players, but not for others. If you have a strong close combat in your FA, HS, Troops and HQ will a Nobz squad benefit you more than a Lootas squad? Both are competitive, so surely you should take both? No, in fact you should take two units of Lootas, as it fills a gap in your army.

Midnight


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## viperchief549 (May 1, 2011)

how would i set up a spacewolf army with this idea of yours


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