# Top five Greatest Primarchs



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Though their have been threads on this subject, I would like for a more specific, realistic and evidental thread on this matter. Please give detailed EVIDENCE on whether you think who goes where or if you would change it a little. And no, not one on one fights with other primarchs. And we are also assuming that since the primarchs are created from the warp, that they are immune to Magnus' pychic abilities.

Top Five best Primarchs in Close Quarters:

1. Horus
2. Sanguinus/Angron
3. Sanguinus/Angron
4. Corax
5. ????

My reasoning for Horus being the greatest is that it is stated that Horus was the greatest warrior second to none. 

2 and 3 place are difficult however. 

A lot of people say Sanguinus as in collected visions a daemon tells him that he would be Khornes Greatest Champion. However, should we really take that as the only information? Did the daemon really not have a reason to lie? Of course he did. He would have had two primarchs and two legions serving the blood god. Why the hell not? Then comes Horus' statement that Sanguinus should have been the Warmaster. But does the Warmaster really constitute being the best one in single hand combat with other primarchs? 

Then comes his tie Angron. Angron has known nothing in his youth years except for one on one combat on the gladiator arenas. Raven's Flight might be a testament to the top dueling primarchs. 

"There was not another primarch that could best him in single combat except Horus and maybe Sanguinus. Corax was an immortal lord of battle but Angron was war incarnate." Chapter 11 Raven's Flight (1:50)

Basically Corax saying that between him and Sanguinus he wasn't sure but with Angron he was definitley sure that his life would end. This also gives Horus some points as Corax realises Horus' abilities

4 place Corax... only evidence is Raven's Flight. However, I've yet to hear a claim to any other primarch talking about beating and being beat up by another primarch.

5 place is left to any evidence about any other primarchs information I never heard about. Or if I'm missing something. I personally go with Fulgrim. As I assume being a perfectionist means he is a perfect swordsmen like Lucius who was essentially made to look like no one knew his equal with his swordsmenship in "Fulgrim" novel. He also has a good primarch kill tally. However no hard evidence like the others.

Personally,

1 Horus
2 Angron
3 Sanguinus
4 Corax
5 Fulgrim


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

IF you want my reasons read the other primarch pole, I just don't have the will to say it all over again but here is my list.
1) Russ
2) tweety
3) Horus
4) Angron
5) I have no idea.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I believe it was because his legion was an "anti-legion" type legion so that you assume russ was also an anti-type primarch? Thats fair enough, though I don't think its specific enough to regard him as one or one of the great single combat primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Something to that effect. A few other reasons but yeah. lol


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> However, I've yet to hear a claim to any other primarch talking about beating and being beat up by another primarch.


In the audio story _The Dark King_ it mentions the fact that Night Haunter left Dorn for dead using just his hands and teeth. This would have to propel him to near the top of the list.

There's also the much debated punch up between Russ and the Lion.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Sanguinus?
Hardly a "great" primarch, considering he got pulverized by Horus in no time at all and barely scratched him.
And due to his failure, all of his followers have turned to Khorne, the blood god of chaos.

Sounds like epicfailz as a primarch.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm not sure how much we can read into the dorn/night haunter incident, seeing as he could've jumped at dorn suddenly in a rage, taking him unawares.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

grimdarkness said:


> I'm not sure how much we can read into the dorn/night haunter incident, seeing as he could've jumped at dorn suddenly in a rage, taking him unawares.


A being like a primarch shouldn't be able to be caught unawares, even by another Primarch. And he did breach Dorn's master crafted armour with nothing but finger nails and a bad temper. Also, he seems to have an active psychic power in the form of a telekinetic blast he can unleash, as oppossed to some of the other primarchs' more passive powers like foresight or invisibility. He used it to destroy a chamber he was in in the _The Dark King_


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Russ could take him down. Lol idk


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> A being like a primarch shouldn't be able to be caught unawares, even by another Primarch. And he did breach Dorn's master crafted armour with nothing but finger nails and a bad temper. Also, he seems to have an active psychic power in the form of a telekinetic blast he can unleash, as oppossed to some of the other primarchs' more passive powers like foresight or invisibility. He used it to destroy a chamber he was in in the _The Dark King_


I'm not sure about the whole Primarch's shouldn't be caught unawares thing. If that was true none of them would ever be caught on the hop. Also Dorn was probably thinking that there was no way Kurze would attack him. They were brothers remember? and they had this whole "No Primarch would try and kill another" mentality. Think how shocked he was when he learned of Horus betrayal.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Plus Dorn continually gets beaten by other primarchs in various military pursuits. Kurze in single combat (Dark King), Perturabo in siege warfare (Iron Cage incident), Guilliman (post-Heresy politics), etc. Ok, so that last one is an extrapolation of Dorn not wanting to go to the Codex Astartes and allowing himself to be blackmailed into it. Therefore I don't think anyone can be sure in the prowess of Rogal Dorn and the ability to use events involving him as a basis for comparison between primarchs.

That being said:

1 - Horus
2 - Sanguinius
3 - Perturabo (because he is my favorite)
4 - Angron
5 - Lehman Russ


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

Magnus the Red, greatest psyker ever next to the emperor. Russ is the worst for being stupid enough to allow Horus to manipulate him into destroying a loyal brother legion.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

I haven't been there, but i've been told the one in manchester is the best:










Hmm, I'm doing this wrong aren't i.....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Annabelle said:


> Russ is the worst for being stupid enough to allow Horus to manipulate him into destroying a loyal brother legion.


Thats not clear yet. 



Varakir said:


> I haven't been there, but i've been told the one in manchester is the best:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That my friend, deserves a +rep :biggrin:


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Varakir said:


> I haven't been there, but i've been told the one in manchester is the best:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hehe it is actually really good, and seems big enough for you to actually breath rather than being trampled by fat chicks looking for low price corsets

The oxford street one is pretty alright but i agree the manchester one is superior, i pass it on my way to gw.

If we are talking in single combat who is the most effective in single upright combat with just a squad of your average guardsman
Angron
Russ
Horus 
Magnus
Lion


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## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

I know that in many sources Horus is referred to as the greatest of the primarchs, i just don't buy into it that much. I dont know the actual words the these sources use but IMO they refer to Horus as being the "overall" best which is not the same as being the best close combat fighter (however, if these sources do actually state "best close combat fighter" i will happily retract this statement). But Horus was bested by that Nurgle thing (to the point of almost dieing) where as Sanguinius beats the most hardcore champion of Khorne... 

My top 5 change depending on when in the Heresy this list would happen:

(Early Great Crusade)

1.Sanguinius
2.Leman Russ
3.Angron
4.Horus
5. Corax

(Late Heresy)

1. Horus (there can be no argument)
2. Sanguinius (beats uber khorne champion)
3. Leman Russ (beats Magnus)
4. Angron (crazy mofo)
5. this one is tuff because im not sure about the influence of chaos on each of the Primarchs but if the demon inside Fulgrim is powerful then Fulgrim, if not then prolly Magnus. Or those 2 reversed in dont know


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

1. *Horus*

There's a reason why only a couple of Primarchs worth a damn grumbled about his being chosen for the position Warmaster, with the other notable exception being the ever-so-lucid Angron. Charisma, acumen, prowess, experience, a solid victory record--Horus had it all.

2. *Roboute Guilliman*

The epitomy of the Emperor's intent where the Great Crusade is concerned. Perhaps he didn't win as often or as much as Horus or the Lion, but where he left behind solid Imperial worlds and recruiting systems for the most successful Legion of the era. A solid strategician and tactician, a compiler of knowledge and information--a most well-rounded general indeed.

3. *Lion El'Jonson*

Ranks behind Guilliman because he has not shown (thus far in the fluff, at any rate) the interest or ability of the Ultramarines Primarch in assimilating worlds in the Imperium. Ranks behind Horus because he lacks the charisma of the Warmaster.

Overall, though, the _finest warlord of the Imperium._ Period. Found with only about 50 years left in the Great Crusade (a fourth of the overall duration), he compiled more victories than any other Primarch except Horus--who was present for _all_ of the Crusade. The same can be said for his _physical_ prowess. When Leman Russ sucker-punched him, the Lion only got mad. When the Lion sucker-punched Russ, he stayed down until the Dark Angels had all the time in the world to move their forces off-planet and to enter the Warp.

4. *Alpharius*

The "youngest" of the Primarchs in the sense that he had the least amount of time in the Great Crusade, he nonetheless demonstrated incredible tactical and strategic acumen. Who knows? Given more time, he might have proven greater than Lion El'Jonson... but one can also argue that, given his "training period" (I think it's referred to in the Index Astartes), he might have had a leg up on absorbing existing Imperial strategies and tactics--something the other Primarchs did not necessarily have.

5. *Fulgrim*

Pompous, arrogant, but also possessed of great combat prowess, charisma, and leadership abilities. The Emperor's Children focused not merely on "brilliant" but perfect.

Honorable mentions:
*Dorn*: the Emperor's go-to guy when the Heresy starts. Could be just because he was nearby, though. We'll get more clarification as the story unfolds, though. If he was chosen over other Primarchs, this might raise his stock.
*Sanguinius*: Horus' choice for Warmaster, though this might be an emotional response during a tough time. Great in terms of prowess and charisma... what about strategy?
*Magnus*: for sheer psychic power and vision.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Nice list but just think and remember that the ultrasmurf primarch is that he got battered by daemon fulgrim and has since been in stasis.

Ps Where do I post a thread moaning about special characters like Calgar etc?


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

Personal opinion might cloud this, but might as well throw my cloud into the mix.

1. Horus
2. Rogal Dorn
3. Robute Guilliman
4. Fulgrim
5. Night Haunter

Again, can't say for certain, but here's my reasoning.

Horus was favored by the Emperor as first amongst equals. He was without equal, and hence, better than all others.

Rogal Dorn. The Emperor placed him in charge of the Defense of Terra. Epic Win in my book. You can't beat having the Emperor's favor (although he had the slight advantage of being right there...). I believe the Emperor forsaw the whole thing, so, having planned to have Rogal Dorn right there makes sense.

Robute Guilliman makes my list grudgingly. I personally felt for a long time he was a stuck up b****. But, let's face it. Marneus managed to build an empire of his own long before the Emperor came by, and that Empire still holds strong while also providing assistance to the rest of the Imperium (in part due to 90% of the Ultramarines legion not making it to the fight with Horus, of course).

Fulgrim. Perfection. Synonymous? Sure. Most have mentioned Sanguinious. Sanguinious was graceful, sure, a good fighter no doubt. But he was prone to rage, wasn't he? He wasn't perfect, or anywhere nears, or else Slaanesh would have come to him, not Khorne, as someone previously mentioned. Fulgrim on the other hand, was a war god in his own right, and even as he turned to Chaos, he was enhancing his combat abilities to improve the likelihood he would be victorious.

Night Haunter. As previously stated, he ripped Rogal Dorn a new one. If I'm going to say Rogal was second to Horus, then whoever could have brought him low would also have to make my list. If it weren't Corax, I would have put Perturabo here. Equal to Rogal Dorn in siege tactics, and all. Erego, he'd be up here on the list.

Just my tuppence.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Nice list but just think and remember that the ultrasmurf primarch is that he got battered by daemon fulgrim and has since been in stasis.


There's more to being one of the five "greatest Primarchs" than winning duels. Fulgrim is eclipsed by Guilliman in virtually every other category. What impact did he have on the 40k universe compared to the Ultramarines Primarch?



Belthazor Aurellius said:


> Rogal Dorn. The Emperor placed him in charge of the Defense of Terra. Epic Win in my book.


Hence my honorable mention, but...

Isn't there also the possibility that Rogal Dorn just happened to be the closest at hand? Who else was around? The Lion, Guilliman and Russ were all far away. The Khan ended up helping Russ out following Prospero, which implies that he, too, was far away. Corax's Legion was decimated, Vulkan may or may not have been missing in action, and Ferrus was dead.

That leaves Sanguinius. Who was also not at Terra.

Personally, I'd posit that the fact Dorn was going to Terra anyways (Eisenstein), combined with his skill-set in defenses (which would be the necessary conduct of the war, being that the Imperium was wrong-footed), along with the fact that the Emperor had no one else nearby (and, let's face it, Dorn was a Primarch and thus an able strategist and warrior) made him the _only_ choice... not the _best_ choice.



> Night Haunter. As previously stated, he ripped Rogal Dorn a new one.


Again, personal combat is hardly the only merit for judging Primarchs. Add to that the fact that Dorn was in no way expecting battle. Kurze was certainly an able Primarch and very good at what he did, but he simply doesn't rate top five. His generalship doesn't imply anything stunning, his model for pacifying worlds proved to be a sham (see Nostramo), his charisma was completely absent outside of his Legion, etc.

Corax proved himself to be nothing special outside of his specific niche, and Perturabo, who prided himself in largely the same activities and showed little exceptional promise elsewhere, came up short in the ultimate test.

Sorry! Agree to disagree, I guess. :grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Seeing as how I misread the question, i've decided to redo my list!

Its very hard to actually consist a coherent list like this, there is so much to take into account and so little we actually know. There is no definitive list and each one is going to be opinionated. And seeing as though this is about the greatest Primarch rather than 'which Primarch is the best fighter' for example, heres mine:

*1) Horus*
Fairly simply, Horus was the greatest Primarch. This is stated countless times across every type of source material. He was a calm and calculated tactical genius, as well as being

*2) Alpharius Omegon*
Their ideological and philosophical stance was realistic and in my opinion the greatest out of all their brothers. Their Legion was the most efficient and adaptable. Alpharius proved his Legion's adaptability was superior to Guilliman's rigid nature at the Battle of Eskrador; even though Alpharius was _seemingly_ killed, the Alpha Legion still went on to triumph and drove the Ultramarines from the planet. Alpharius' realistic belief that the Great Crusade was inherently flawed, as well as his belief in sabotage, manipulation and above all, his belief that secrecy was his greatest weapon in my opinion solidifies him as one of the greatest Primarchs.

*3) Sanguinius*
The noble and pure angel. Highly respected across not only the war council itself, but also the entire Imperium. He kept his violent Legion in check with his spirit and prevented them from devolving into what Angron allowed his World Eaters to. Even in the face of an offer of untold power and immortality he resolutely stayed loyal to the Emperor, and confronted the great Horus Lupercal at the height of his power likely knowing he would have been killed.

*4) Fulgrim*
The great phoenix. Started the Great Crusade with a mere two hundred Astartes, and thus rather than focusing on the quantity of victories he focused on the quality. His Legion quickly adopted this and it quickly became a strive for perfection. Perhaps the most efficient Legion across the board, who waged perfect wars, yet still maintained the vision and foresight to spread illumination and culture throughout the Imperium. The cleansing of Laern is a shining example of this perfection, no other Legion would have been able to pacify Laern with the men, resources and time that the Emperor's Children had.

*5) Night Haunter*
Konrad Curze was never taught any form of moral compass during his youth. He, as a child developed his own. Seeing immoral acts and the violent nature of some men he acted in the only way he knew they would respond; forcing them to taste their own medicine. Upon being incorporated into the Imperium, the Emperor realised he needed Curze to be the monster that the Emperor could have never been seen to be, the monster needed to destroy monsters. Curze and his Legion shed their humanity for the Emperor, and it didn't matter how loud the voices of criticism grew, so long as the Emperor continued to sanction their methods. The Emperor turned his back on his creation and attempted to assassinate him before the Heresy even erupted, Curze alluded these assassins for many years before throwing in his lot with Horus to punish the Emperor based on his own moral compass. The Emperor tried to kill him, so now he would join Horus and burn the Imperium to sinders. After the Heresy, and all that had happened, Curze's willing death proved that the Imperium and the Emperor were the ones in the wrong, and that they were the hypocrites, in death he was vindicated.



Phoebus said:


> he compiled more victories than any other Primarch except Horus--who was present for _all_ of the Crusade.


That depends on what source you use. _Horus Rising_ for example states that Dorn had the second best record throughout the Great Crusade.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

True enough; I'll have to look at it again.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Fulgrim is eclipsed by Guilliman in virtually every other category. What impact did he have on the 40k universe compared to the Ultramarines Primarch?


I have to disagree there as well im afraid. Guilliman is noted as being an organisational genius, orchestrating and governing entire systems and his Legion with unprecedented skill. He is also noted as a fantastic tactician (even among the Primarchs).

Fulgrim however was perfection incarnate. He developed his Legion as possibly the most efficient, and strove for perfection in absolutley everything, and achieved it in most things. His tactical accumen and skill in war was fantastic, proved by the Cleansing of Laern.

I dont see Guilliman as eclipsing Fulgrim at all, and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that.

And as for the impact Fulgrim has had on the 40k galaxy as a whole? Well without him its plausable that the Heresy would have failed without even Horus being able to confront the Emperor. Fulgrim has the largest Primarch kill tally, felling two of his brothers. The Emperor's Children are also arguably the reason (or at least the initial catalyst) as for why Abaddon is now the Warmaster of Chaos and the Black Legion the most dominant Chaos Legion, causing untold misery for the Imperium. Guilliman's achievements and impact on the 40k galaxy generally revolve around the scourging and the creation of the Codex Astartes, which ultimately only prolonged the inevitable anyway.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Sanguinus?
> Hardly a "great" primarch, considering he got pulverized by Horus in no time at all and barely scratched him.
> And due to his failure, all of his followers have turned to Khorne, the blood god of chaos.
> 
> Sounds like epicfailz as a primarch.


Yeah, at first I was talking about close combat wise as in previous threads I have noticed that polls kind of messed up things as people were voting for their favorite primarchs and not really stating good informative reason. 

For greatest I have changed my list

1. Horus- don't have to explain why. Extremely charasmatic, diplomatic, and just the greatest war machine in the imperium. Truly, to have all those traits is amazing.

2. Sanguinus- I pretty much will only say he is second due to how Horus described him as being. Before Horus losed his sanity, he states with doubts upon himself that it was perhaps better that Sanguinus was Warmaster. Which could have been a good possibility if Sanguinus' legion of the Blood Angels had done a lot more in conquering systems and claiming more victories than he did. Sanguinus and Lion El Johnson are interesting characters if you see the idea that both missed the traits of the other.

3. Fulgrim- As The Child of the Emperor stated, he was perfection. Fulgrim did so much with so little, its a shame that Fulgrim's legion crashed down so hard to the power of chaos. As such the Emperor recognized at how great his legion had become in saving all those systems and restoring them to the ways of the Imperium by giving them the recognition of displaying the Imperial Helardy. The Imperial Eagle not given to display to any other legion was a gift. It wasn't given to them because he felt bad for their loses as many other legions also suffered similar mishappenings. 

4. Konrad Curze- I think that reading Soul Hunter truly gives a good perspective at how some legions were used and raped by the Emperor and how some were exalted beyond others. Konrad Curze as I remember The Child of the Emperor stating once, was the monster created to destroy the other monsters. That really is a good way of putting it. The Night Lords sold their humanity away to destroy the heresy and rebellious prevention with the growth of the Imperium. I like the scene where he is butchering the rebels in one of the audios and Dorn stops him from killing one. Konrad says fine... shoot me rebel. The rebel is so afraid he doesn't. Then he says, okay no one has permission to kill this man. As he walks away the rebel shoots him. The emperor used Konrad Curze and then tried to punish him because he thought he no longer needed him. I don't think I'd say Konrad Curze would have been a Warmaster as their isn't too much information about his leadership abilities and what not, but he definitely knew what he had to do to make the Imperium thrive.

5. Perturabo- The only problem with using Perturabo is that there isn't any books on him yet. But I will do my best to explain. I believe that like Konrad Curze, he was used by the Emperor. The Emperor needed astartes to defend new planets and systems while others traveled the stars and retook humanity back and showed them the light of the Imperium. As the Imperial Fists were given the honor in everything from all their sieges, the Iron Warriors suffered the strongest and most brutal sieges and gained no recognition for this. (By the way Rogal Dorn also did this with the Night Lords). So the only way to gain recognition was to break up his legion and obey his father to garrison worlds with as low as ten marines per planet. Perturabo knew what needed to be done, and as a consequence, he tore himself and his legion a part with hatred amongst himself and bitterness within his legion. It would also explain how devastated he was when learning that his own home planet had rebelled. I mean here he was doing everything to satisfy the Imperium and the Emperor and all he needed was for the Emperor and the other Primarchs to know that he was not capable of even making his own planet a loyal one. This deeply enraged Perturabo and with fury he destroyed the greatness of his planet and killed a great majority of his population. After that I think he realized that destroying himself, tearing up his legion, and destroying his own world that the Imperium was not worth fighting for.

For both Konrad Curze and Perturabo, I put them in the list because they did more for the Imperium besides trying to glorify and put their names on the paper. They did what they had to, only to be thrown away in the wind like trash.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

best close combat primarchs is would say are:

1. Horus
(all of the above, lol)
2. Angron
(One of the strongest and craziest primarchs and even Khorne's favourite.)
3. Fulgrim 
(death of two primarchs? lol)
4. Lion el Johnson
(knocking out russ?)
5. Sanguinious
(might have spelt name wrong, but he did do alot of things and excelled at combat, but killing a graeter daemon of khorne which was not even khornes strongest)


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Annabelle said:


> Magnus the Red, greatest psyker ever next to the emperor. Russ is the worst for being stupid enough to allow Horus to manipulate him into destroying a loyal brother legion.


THANK YOU!!!

5. Sanguinas- Valiant defense of Terra, and he accompanied his father aboard Horus's ship, and he even tried to take down Horus, in spite of his weakened state.

4. Alpharius- He was possibly willing to "betray" the Imperium for the sake of the galaxy.

3. Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter- He didn't bow down and worship Chaos like a tool, he used Chaos as his tool. Also the Night Lords stayed cohesive and orderly after the Battle of Terra. (Not to mention the Night Lords are just badass.)

2. Perturabo- He has got to be one of the most skilled Primarchs. He smashed Rogal Dorn's defenses of Terra, and then broke Dorn's soul in the Iron Cage.

1. Magnus the Red- The only Psyker more powerful than Magnus was the Emperor. Magnus had only the Imperium's best interest in mind when trying to alert the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. In addition to being a formidable warrior, he is unique in the 40k universe for being a scholar too. Magnus was a brilliant mind, and only became a "traitor" when he was betrayed.

That's weird...I'm not even that big of an Alpharius or Alpha legion fan, but he made my list. I really like Mortarion and the Death Guard, and he didn't.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ok let's just get this straight... Russ didn't need to be manipulated into destroying the thousand sons. Lol

I missread the question. This is my new list.
1) The Lion
( Arguably the single Greatest tactician in the history of the imperium.)
2) Papa Smurf
( Rebuilt the imperium. Would be first but he isn't my nearly as cool.)
3) pre-heresy Horus
4) Fulgrim
5)Russ


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Iron Within said:


> 5. Sanguinas- Valiant defense of Terra, and he accompanied his father aboard Horus's ship, and he even tried to take down Horus, in spite of his weakened state.


Weakened state???
He was at his prime!!!! (and still got his arse kicked).

I dont see why there is so much love for Sanguinus. All he did was kiss the emperors arse all day, and then died when put in a fight against another primarch.
He killed a khorne daemon prince? Wow, big woop.
I think khorne won that fight anyway. The daemon prince might have been killed, but khorne has taken over the whole blood angels chapter. And dont deny it, they are even more khorne-like than berzerkers.

Sanguinus was one of the most useless primarchs out of them all. I dont understand why he would be in the top 5, never mind #1 on some peoples lists.
Doom of Malantai dropped in and tore the souls out of an entire planet of Eldar, and you dont see him jumping up and down wanting a medal.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Fulgrim however was perfection incarnate. He developed his Legion as possibly the most efficient, and strove for perfection in absolutley everything, and achieved it in most things. His tactical accumen and skill in war was fantastic, proved by the Cleansing of Laern.
> 
> I dont see Guilliman as eclipsing Fulgrim at all, and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that.


Sure there is. The fluff is rife with evidence regarding Guilliman's work with assimilating human worlds into the Imperium, establishing recruiting efforts, enlarging his Legion and the non-Astartes forces following, etc.

Fulgrim's impact was felt in one place, and one place alone: the battlefield. And for all his perfectionism, at the end of the day we aren't ever given any qualifiers as to how great his end-results were. Horus, the Lion, Russ, Dorn and Guilliman have all had reputations for most (or almost as many) victories, most worlds conquered, etc., but Fulgrim? I suppose there's the Emperor awarding them the Aquila for their armour.



> And as for the impact Fulgrim has had on the 40k galaxy as a whole? Well without him its plausable that the Heresy would have failed without even Horus being able to confront the Emperor.


I took the subject title to measure the Primarchs prior to the Heresy.



> Fulgrim has the largest Primarch kill tally, felling two of his brothers.


Only one of them as a pure Primarch, the other coming as a Daemon armed with a blade that could kill with but a cut. Hardly an objective comparison to his brethren. By contrast, Leman Russ' victory over Magnus resonates far more strikingly. :grin:

Fulgrim's accomplishments ultimately revolve around his Legion, or, if you want to include the Heresy and the Scouring in this, the effect he had on other Legions, arguably including that without him Horus would not have had the manpower to reach Terra.

Guilliman's accomplishments affected not just his Legion, but huge swaths of space and more planets than any other Primarch. More than any other Primarch, he is responsible for the continuation of the Adeptus Astartes (2/3 of existing Chapters use Ultramarines Geneseed). For that last bit alone, Guilliman's influence and abillities eclipse Fulgrim's, whose Legion ended up as a shadow of its former self.



ckcrawford said:


> 3. Fulgrim- As The Child of the Emperor stated, he was perfection. Fulgrim did so much with so little, its a shame that Fulgrim's legion crashed down so hard to the power of chaos.


His greatest hindrance, though, was also his greatest advantage.

Fulgrim's Legion was almost destroyed, but its ascension came under the aegis and patronage of Horus. Remove the Warmaster from that equation and re-consider. Fulgrim's vision was singular, don't get me wrong, but he had the Luna Wolves backing his play.

It's not like his speeches went "OK, guys, we have to execute this PERFECTLY, because there are only a few hundred of us, and our Legion might be killed off!" He had thousands of Luna Wolves to assist him, expeditionary fleets, etc. His losses would cost him more dearly, but his operational risk was never greater than that of any individual "speartip" undergoing it combat mission.



> Konrad Curze as I remember The Child of the Emperor stating once, was the monster created to destroy the other monsters. That really is a good way of putting it. The Night Lords sold their humanity away to destroy the heresy and rebellious prevention with the growth of the Imperium.


That's just Curze's take, and Curze was little more than a sociopath with a traumatic child-hood. In fact, there's little evidence that the worlds he brought into Complianc happened to be "monsters", "heretics", or otherwise a real threat. It was just Curze's modus operandi to terrorize and crush, since Nostramo Quintus had "taught" him that people needed to be treated that way for a just environment to exist.

Of course, we know that's not the case: Nostramo Quintus became even WORSE following his reign, which is hardly surprising.



> Perturabo- ...


First, Perturabo is hardly shown to be superior to Dorn in terms of their own niche warfighting focus. Not that Dorn is ever shown to be superior to Perturabo!

Second, Perturabo was hardly handed a crap card. Perturabo was given nothing worse than what Guilliman used to make his Legion the largest and the systems under his control/compliance efforts the most productive--Utopias, according to Magnus in "A Thousans Sons"!

Perturabo's problem, from day one, was that he did not trust people. Not surprisingly, the character of the Primarch translates to the character of the Legion. Guilliman was hailed as a hero, warlord and leader on Macragge. Perturabo kept to himself and did virtually nothing of note (compared to other Primarchs) until his father arrived. Where Guilliman turned planets into beneficial partners of the Imperium and recruiting spots from which to draw more and more Astartes, Perturabo had to garrison them and fight off revolts.

Big surprise then, that such a withdrawn, untrusting and dour Primarch/Legion faced revolt even in their own adopted homeworld. The idea that he was devastated by Olympia's rebellion or by the backlash they received in so many of their conquered planets would make sense only if he also happened to be delusional. Not one bit of fluff has Perturabo ever extending the olive branch, or trying to act as a champion of those he brought into the Imperium. By contrast, Guilliman's Macragge was a solid bastion of loyalty and productivity.

I mean no offense to your opinion by this, but Perturabo, if anything, is probably one of the five WORSE* Primarchs the Imperium produced... IMHO, of course.

* And I have a hard time filling out that roster with anyone else besides Angron.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

1) Russ
2) Horus
3) Corax
4) Lion El
5)Papa Smurf


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

1: Horus
2: Fulgrim
3: Guilleman
4: Magnus
5: Dorn

IMO, the others are either one dimensional or did not accomplish as much. Not that Alpharius didn`t try, he would have made 6...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Sure there is. The fluff is rife with evidence regarding Guilliman's work with assimilating human worlds into the Imperium, establishing recruiting efforts, enlarging his Legion and the non-Astartes forces following, etc.
> 
> Fulgrim's impact was felt in one place, and one place alone: the battlefield. And for all his perfectionism, at the end of the day we aren't ever given any qualifiers as to how great his end-results were. Horus, the Lion, Russ, Dorn and Guilliman have all had reputations for most (or almost as many) victories, most worlds conquered, etc., but Fulgrim? I suppose there's the Emperor awarding them the Aquila for their armour.
> 
> ...


Well if were talking Pre-Heresy, Fulgrim was at a massive disadvantage considering he started the Great Crusade with a mere 200 Astartes, and Guilliman's Ultramarines quickly grew to become the largest Legion. This is the exact reason (alongside his rise to dominance on Chemos) why Fulgrim adopted for himself and his Legion the strive for Perfection in all pursuits, focusing on the quality rather than the quantity. And as you said, the Emperor's Children were the only Legion permitted to bear the Imperial Aquila, that speaks volumes for itself really. We also have the evidence of Fulgrim's love and appriciation of human culture and art, he wasn't like Horus or Russ in this regard, I think its safe to assume that he didn't just devastate and conquer planets and leave them in the hands of a nervous govenor to rebuild, often in the face of local rebellions. Given his appriciation of culture and his statements in the novel _Fulgrim_ (about spreading human culture and art to make the Imperium a better place once the Great Crusade was over) I think its safe to assume that he left the human worlds he conquered in a stable state, maybe not as organised as Guilliman's worlds, but in an enlightened and loyal state nonetheless.

Also for most of the Great Crusade Fulgrim fought alongside Horus and the Luna Wolves whilst his Legion was slowly reinforced by recruits from Chemos and Terra, so technically Horus' largest number of victories actually included Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children. 



Phoebus said:


> Only one of them as a pure Primarch, the other coming as a Daemon armed with a blade that could kill with but a cut. Hardly an objective comparison to his brethren. By contrast, Leman Russ' victory over Magnus resonates far more strikingly. :grin:


Guilliman could have accepted the power of Chaos and thus himself become enhanced in many ways. Just because Fulgrim did and then went on to 'kill' Guilliman, doesn't mean his achievement in this regard should be disregarded. Its just like saying, in a fight between two men, both equal on every level, and both offered a sword to make use of, if one man then takes the sword whilst the other doesn't and the armed man goes on to win, its like saying that the armed man 'cheated' and thus the duel must be disregarded. (the sword being Chaos in this analogy btw! :biggrin Of course it is open to argument but thats one take on it!

And the comparison to the Russ/Magnus duel is shaky in my opinion. Arguably that duel was always going to end in one way, with Magnus' defeat - it was destined that way after all.



Phoebus said:


> Guilliman's accomplishments affected not just his Legion, but huge swaths of space and more planets than any other Primarch. More than any other Primarch, he is responsible for the continuation of the Adeptus Astartes (2/3 of existing Chapters use Ultramarines Geneseed). For that last bit alone, Guilliman's influence and abillities eclipse Fulgrim's, whose Legion ended up as a shadow of its former self.


But thats only because his Legion was by far the largest and went largely unschathed during the years of the Heresy. Most of the remaining loyal Primarchs even oppossed Guilliman's reforms, but Guilliman seemed willing to push the Imperium down into the depths of another civil war to get his way, I believe shots were even fired on the Imperial Fists before Dorn gave in.

Im not doubting Guilliman's achievements at all, as obviously his post-heresy reforms especially, have had a large impact on the Imperium in the following millennia. But the Heresy and Scourging aside for a moment, despite Fulgrim's miniscule Legion he still managed to have a monumental impact on the Great Crusade as a whole, as obviously did Guilliman - But the Ultramarines Primarch held a gargantuan advantage, and was always expected to do well. Fulgrim triumphed against all odds and came out as a shining example of one of the greatest Primarchs and Legions.




Phoebus said:


> His greatest hindrance, though, was also his greatest advantage.
> 
> Fulgrim's Legion was almost destroyed, but its ascension came under the aegis and patronage of Horus. Remove the Warmaster from that equation and re-consider. Fulgrim's vision was singular, don't get me wrong, but he had the Luna Wolves backing his play.
> 
> It's not like his speeches went "OK, guys, we have to execute this PERFECTLY, because there are only a few hundred of us, and our Legion might be killed off!" He had thousands of Luna Wolves to assist him, expeditionary fleets, etc. His losses would cost him more dearly, but his operational risk was never greater than that of any individual "speartip" undergoing it combat mission.


In a way yes, but the Emperor's Children as a Legion still were at great risk everytime they deployed troops. And its not like the Emperor would have been irresponsible enough (although actually he had been in regards to other things! ) to deploy the Emperor's Children Legion as their own expeditionary fleet to begin with, of course he was going to assign them to another Legion/Primarch, and who better than Horus and his Luna Wolves.

But that doesn't take away the fact that the Emperor's Children (even assingned alongside the Luna Wolves) were still taking massive risks when engaged in campaigns. We have some examples of notable campaigns throughout the Great Crusade claiming around five hundred Astartes, some more so towards a thousand. If the Luna Wolves/Emperor's Children became involved in such a campaign (which was probably inevitable given the long years the two Legions were together) then I imagine the vast majority if the not the entirety of the III Legion alongside Fulgrim would have still been deployed to the surface. And I know this is largely speculative, but even so, its a real testament to Fulgrim that his Legion survived at all considering they were thrown into the thick of the Great Crusade (alongside the longest serving Primarch) with only 200 Astartes.




Phoebus said:


> That's just Curze's take, and Curze was little more than a sociopath with a traumatic child-hood. In fact, there's little evidence that the worlds he brought into Complianc happened to be "monsters", "heretics", or otherwise a real threat. It was just Curze's modus operandi to terrorize and crush, since Nostramo Quintus had "taught" him that people needed to be treated that way for a just environment to exist.


Well we know that rebellions and entire worlds were brought into compliance merely at the rumour of the Night Lords' presence. Its also not just Curze's take but his Legion's take as well, given the evidence I think its safe to assume (although yes, not certain) that the Emperor sanctioned Curze's methods, the Night Lords then arguably becoming one of the most efficient Legions for conquering worlds (they didn't even have to deploy in some cases to bring a world to compliance). And in particually tough situations where terror, murder and unconscious and barbaric force was needed to bring a world to compliance, it would have smeared the reputation of one of the 'purer' Legions (Luna Wolves, Ultramarines, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists etc) to have executed the campaign given the tactics that would have been necessary, thus the Night Lords were brought in. They didn't care what criticism they drew, only that the Emperor continued to secretly praise them. Which obviously wasn't the case as the Emperor apparently turned against and betrayed the Night Haunter and attempted to assassinate him before the Heresy had even began.



Phoebus said:


> Of course, we know that's not the case: Nostramo Quintus became even WORSE following his reign, which is hardly surprising.


I don't think thats necessarily fair. Nostramo was a world gripped in gangs, violence and murder - it was second nature to them. Night Haunter's reign brought crime to the 0% mark, and peace and justice ruled. When the Night Haunter left, its only natural that given the Night Haunter's system of justice and given that the old ways were still fresh in the memory of most Nostramans that anarchy and gang dominance would resume.

Im not that Night Haunter's system of justice through fear was necessarily the most efficient, because if you take away the fear (as seen when Night Haunter joined the Great Crusade), crime resumes and justice slips away. But that doesn't stop him as probably being one of the most efficient Primarchs during the Great Crusade in bringing worlds into compliance. The Imperial Army could worry about enforcing the compliance.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

i find it strange that Lorgar hasn't had a mention. he may not have the military acumen of some of his brothers, but he has had a huge effect on the modern Imperium. he was instrumental in turning Horus traiter, as well as being responsible for the religion that has grown around the emperor. just a thought.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

1.Magnus
2.Horus (who would be at the top if it wasn't for those stupid last regrets)
3.Lorgar
4.Sangunius
5.Alpharius Omegon

Night Haunter would have been 6th but he was just a bit too...self-rightous. He kind of went a bit mental, killing his own planet and drooling everywhere, that from soul drinker (even though the emperor forced it upon him) I also am dissapointed with how his legion turned out and after Soul Drinker I just wanted Talos to shut the feth up and stop whining  Embrace Chaos!


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

1.Sanguinius
2.Alphirus/Omeagon
3.Dorn
4.Fulgrim
5.Magnus


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor,

First, thanks for reminding me about the mentions regarding Dorn in "Horus Rising". While it saddens me that the old fluff about Lion El'Jonson has been discarded, it certainly forces me to re-evaluate my list. Perhaps I can console myself with the idea that the reason Dorn is ranked higher in the mind of the Imperial forces is because the Lion does a poor job of advertising himself. Oh well!

Dorn definitely replaces the Lion in his slot, then, with the Lion falling to a tie between him and Alpharius.

Moving on!



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well if were talking Pre-Heresy, Fulgrim was at a massive disadvantage considering he started the Great Crusade with a mere 200 Astartes, and Guilliman's Ultramarines quickly grew to become the largest Legion.


Indeed. But, as I posited before, his very disadvantage was what led to his adoption of "perfectionist" principles. And, again, without Horus to back his Legion up, said principles probably would not have been a reality. It's a case of a bad thing leading to a good thing--in an odd way.



> ... I think its safe to assume that [Fulgrim] didn't just devastate and conquer planets and leave them in the hands of a nervous govenor to rebuild, often in the face of local rebellions.


No, of course not. But neither do we see the impact of Guilliman: stability, empowerment, total inclusion and belief in the Imperium and the Imperial ideals. None gets that mention because none approached Guilliman in that regard. Guilliman did more than anyone else to ensure the Imperium's strength and survival before and after the Heresy. By contrast, Fulgrim was, no offense, little more than a bit player.



> ... technically Horus' largest number of victories actually included Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.


Absolutely.



> Just because Fulgrim did and then went on to 'kill' Guilliman, doesn't mean his achievement in this regard should be disregarded.


What I was really driving at is that even Fulgrim's enhancements (if you want to call being more or less a Daemon that!) made the difference: it was his sword--a sword that spelled doom with but a single cut--that made the difference.



> And the comparison to the Russ/Magnus duel is shaky in my opinion. Arguably that duel was always going to end in one way, with Magnus' defeat - it was destined that way after all.


It doesn't make it any less valid. Going by that argument, virtually everything could have been pre-ordained, and thus there's no point in arguing anyone's merits or flaws, right? :grin:



> But thats only because his Legion was by far the largest and went largely unschathed during the years of the Heresy.


A moot point, I would argue, given that maybe 10% of it survived the _Scouring._ Everything the Ultramarines "avoided" during the Heresy they more than made up for in spades. Ultimately, they shed more blood than any other Legion--probably more than any other 2-3 Legions _combined._



> Most of the remaining loyal Primarchs even oppossed Guilliman's reforms, ...


Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ did. Jagatai Khan and Corax had no issues. It's really a tie, and when you consider that Dorn was besides himself and Russ was, well, Russ...



> ... but Guilliman seemed willing to push the Imperium down into the depths of another civil war to get his way, I believe shots were even fired on the Imperial Fists before Dorn gave in.


I would posit his position was eminently sensible. The Emperor was no longer able to guide them and fully half of their ranks (more than half, if you take the meaning of the scene in "Lightning Tower" to be that the two missing Primarchs went rogue as well--their reference as an ignored warning when compared to the Traitors certainly implies that) had shown that they could turn against the Imperium

Heck, all four of the surviving Primarchs could attest to the idea that you might not even have WANTED to go Traitor before you did so.



> ... despite [his] miniscule Legion [Fulgrim] still managed to have a monumental impact on the Great Crusade as a whole, ...


See, that I don't agree with being that I simply don't see the evidence for it.



> ... But the Ultramarines Primarch held a gargantuan advantage, and was always expected to do well.


One he earned, though. Rogal Dorn, let's not forget, was ALSO the undisputed leader of a multi-system empire. Where was his Ultramar after the Heresy? Where was his evidence of bringing lost worlds to the fold wholeheartedly and turning places into utopias?

Everything Guilliman brought about, to include his huge Legion, can be directly contributed to his genius and abilities. No other Primarch achieved what he did in this regard--not even close.



> In a way yes, but the Emperor's Children as a Legion still were at great risk everytime they deployed troops.


Completely agreed. Which is why I posit that, when they deployed, they did so under circumstances that prevented their losses from being catastrophic. Let's not forget: while having only a few hundred Astartes was a hindrance, it's not a situation that likely plagued Fulgrim for long. We have "Fallen Angels" to show us that thousands of Astartes could be raised within a comparatively scant time. The small numbers of the Emperor's Children could not have lasted long; within a handful of years, they would have at least reached the strength of the Thousand Sons, who were certainly not shy about going to war.



> Its also not just Curze's take but his Legion's take as well, ...


Hardly unusual, given the propensity of Astartes to match their Primarch's character. Doubly so for the Night Lords, given so many of them were recruited from a place where Night Haunter's ways were the law.



> ... given the evidence I think its safe to assume (although yes, not certain) that the Emperor sanctioned Curze's methods, ...


See, I think that's just Night Haunter's own little world of assumption. Meaning he assumed he was sanctioned by default. Dorn's reaction in "The Dark King" hardly reflects a man who's been advised that Night Haunter does what he does with their father's blessing. Night Haunter himself states that the Emperor was sending assassins after him BEFORE the Heresy. Hardly sounds like acceptable behavior.



> ... it would have smeared the reputation of one of the 'purer' Legions (Luna Wolves, Ultramarines, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists etc) to have executed the campaign given the tactics that would have been necessary, thus the Night Lords were brought in.


Per "Horus Rising", "Flight of the Eisenstein", the Luna Wolves had a reputation for ruthlessness and savagery, just as the Blood Angels and the Death Guard did. Yet Horus was most loved of all the Primarchs and Sanguinius was right up there as well.

The difference being that sanctioned Legions like the World Eaters and the Night Lords were out of control in their own ways. To use horror movie cliches, Angron was "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and Night Haunter was "Hannibal". The Emperor, in my opinion, gambled that flawed Primarchs would be better off than no Primarchs and that they could be contained/controlled until his crisis period was over. He came close... but no cigar.



> I don't think thats necessarily fair. Nostramo was a world gripped in gangs, violence and murder - it was second nature to them. Night Haunter's reign brought crime to the 0% mark, and peace and justice ruled. When the Night Haunter left, its only natural that given the Night Haunter's system of justice and given that the old ways were still fresh in the memory of most Nostramans that anarchy and gang dominance would resume.


The lesson learned here is that fear and the threat of violence simply doesn't cut it. By your logic, Night Haunter was being sent to the worlds that "couldn't" be cracked by other Legions or by proper means. What does it say about any long-term success rate if his pilot project failed so abysmally? And if they weren't worlds of such ferocious evil (on which his schemes don't work, as in Nostramo), then they didn't deserve his tactics to begin with.

Kurze was tragic, due to his upbringing and flaws, but never great. At least not when compared to the other Primarchs. That's not his fault, mind you--I have no doubt that Guilliman would have been his match and Kurze a sage and stable warlord had their destinations been reversed.

I should add this. I find it ironic we're embroiled in such a debate, especially in regards to the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords, being that, out of all the Traitor Legions, they are my favorites*!

Cheers,
P.

* I simply don't like the new colors of the EC and their distorted, "sonic" visages. I always regreted that their quest for perfection was so corrupted.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> "Big surprise then, that such a withdrawn, untrusting and dour Primarch/Legion faced revolt even in their own adopted homeworld. The idea that he was devastated by Olympia's rebellion or by the backlash they received in so many of their conquered planets would make sense only if he also happened to be delusional. Not one bit of fluff has Perturabo ever extending the olive branch, or trying to act as a champion of those he brought into the Imperium. By contrast, Guilliman's Macragge was a solid bastion of loyalty and productivity."


His paranoia is second to none that is certain however, as I have said there is little fluff on Peturabo. And as for him not trying to be act as a champion, I would state that you have been misinformed and that statement is false. If you listen to The Lightning Tower, Dorn specifically states how both him and Peturabo seeked acknowledgement and championship in the eyes of the emperor. In index astartes 1, Peturabo is described as being the only Primarch to actually listen and do as the Emperor commanded by securing and defending worlds... which really isn't the job of astartes as they grow weary and bitter. Many examples in stories have shown this including heresy like the Dark Angels. Peturabo is ony ever described in joining Horus after the genocide in Olympia, as well him and his legion are described as feeling bad for what they did which is also in the first index astartes... not so delusional. As for him and his legion being bitter over the drastic split of his legion and heavy sieges, I would also recommend the Index Astartes books for you. As for the Ultramarines being so great, I'm surprised they aren't anything more than they were during the heresy. I mean you'd think that having control over nine star systems all technologically advanced would make you the greatest and most successful legion, however Horus and the Lion all kicked his ass in victories with only having one planet under their belts. I don't know about Horus' planet but the Lion's was not so technologically advanced.

As with Fulgrim I know your trying to say that Fulgrim should not have any credit because that "greatness" of Horus and the Luna Wolves might have rubbed off on him, but so what? That doesn't take away from him and his legions accomplishments.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Yog-Sothoth said:


> 2.Horus (who would be at the top if it wasn't for those stupid last regrets)


Well its not clear that he did feel any pang of regret in his final moments, some sources speculate he did, and some just don't mention it.



Phoebus said:


> Child-of-the-Emperor,
> 
> First, thanks for reminding me about the mentions regarding Dorn in "Horus Rising". While it saddens me that the old fluff about Lion El'Jonson has been discarded, it certainly forces me to re-evaluate my list. Perhaps I can console myself with the idea that the reason Dorn is ranked higher in the mind of the Imperial forces is because the Lion does a poor job of advertising himself. Oh well!






Phoebus said:


> No, of course not. But neither do we see the impact of Guilliman: stability, empowerment, total inclusion and belief in the Imperium and the Imperial ideals. None gets that mention because none approached Guilliman in that regard. Guilliman did more than anyone else to ensure the Imperium's strength and survival before and after the Heresy. By contrast, Fulgrim was, no offense, little more than a bit player.


Right, but then again we don't know just how many worlds or systems the Ultramarines brought into compliance and left in a stable, flourishing state. We know he conquered less worlds than at least three or four Primarchs (possibly more) despite having the largest Legion by far. But yes, this would have seemingly been because of the time and effort he spent reorganising and stabilising worlds brought into compliance. But at the end of the day, that is something that Lorgar and the Word Bearers also did (although for a very different purpose), Lorgar spent a long time on each world spreading their form of the Imperial Truth and they left behind worlds which were fanatically loyal to the Imperium - that was part of the reason why they got chastised by the Emperor, because they were progressing slowly. After all, the Astartes Legions were meant to speartip the Great Crusade, crush and conquer, the job of ensuring compliance and reorganising was for the expeditionary fleets in the rearguard, not the Astartes. I wonder why then that Lorgar was chastised and not Guilliman (besides the whole Lectito Divinitatus issue)?

But yes your point still stands, although it is arguable - Guilliman contributed a hell of a lot (although maybe not the most) to the stability of the Imperium pre and post Heresy.



Phoebus said:


> A moot point, I would argue, given that maybe 10% of it survived the _Scouring._ Everything the Ultramarines "avoided" during the Heresy they more than made up for in spades. Ultimately, they shed more blood than any other Legion--probably more than any other 2-3 Legions _combined._


Well that depends on what source for Legion sizes you use.



Phoebus said:


> See, that I don't agree with being that I simply don't see the evidence for it.


Well first and foremost he contributed to most of Horus' victory tally. He also brought many systems into compliance when he formed his own expeditionary fleet, granted not as many personally as say Dorn or the Lion but still a large amount nonetheless. He contributed in cultural ways and to the War Council. I don't think you can deny really that all the Primarchs made massive contributions to the Great Crusade, but obviously with some we don't have clear or many examples - but that obviously doesn't mean they didn't do anything 



Phoebus said:


> One he earned, though. Rogal Dorn, let's not forget, was ALSO the undisputed leader of a multi-system empire. Where was his Ultramar after the Heresy? Where was his evidence of bringing lost worlds to the fold wholeheartedly and turning places into utopias?
> 
> Everything Guilliman brought about, to include his huge Legion, can be directly contributed to his genius and abilities. No other Primarch achieved what he did in this regard--not even close.


Well that just goes back to praise Guilliman's organisational abilities. Which greatly aided the Imperium yes, but im still skeptical and hesistant on agreeing that Guilliman certainly made the highest contribution to the Imperium during the Great Crusade.



Phoebus said:


> Completely agreed. Which is why I posit that, when they deployed, they did so under circumstances that prevented their losses from being catastrophic. Let's not forget: while having only a few hundred Astartes was a hindrance, it's not a situation that likely plagued Fulgrim for long.


Although knowing Fulgrim, I wouldn't be suprised if he deployed his entire Legion in dangerous campaigns (even when they numbered in the scant hundreds) to prove himself and establish his strive for perfection. I can see his opinion being 'How can we be perfect, if we leave a portion of our Legion to cower in orbit to play it safe?' - or something along those lines!

It may have seemed sensible to retain a portion of his small Legion in orbit 'just in case', but that was not how they were going to achieve perfection after all.



Phoebus said:


> We have "Fallen Angels" to show us that thousands of Astartes could be raised within a comparatively scant time. The small numbers of the Emperor's Children could not have lasted long; within a handful of years, they would have at least reached the strength of the Thousand Sons, who were certainly not shy about going to war.


Indeed, it seemed that during the Great Crusade especially, with the presence of both the Primarchs and the Emperor, Astartes could be recruited fairly easily and quickly (even though it damaged and mutated the geneseed, but thats a different story). However given that Fulgrim is implied to have been discovered 160 years before the Heresy (roughly 40 years into the Great Crusade), and given that he only left the company of Horus and the Luna Wolves a few years before the events of _Fulgrim_ (if memory serves), it would have taken him around 100 years, if not longer to establish his Legion to the average size. This is obviously inconsistent with other sources, like _Fallen Angels_ where huge numbers of Calibanite Dark Angels were recruited very quickly. One solution to this problem could have perhaps been that there was an issue with the Emperor's Children geneseed brought about by the 'accident', although I believe the Emperor's Children geneseed was noted as one of the most stable and unmutated, so maybe this wasn't the case. 

Just another one of those mysteries or inconsistencies I guess.

And I see your point about Night Haunter, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, in part at least 



ckcrawford said:


> I mean you'd think that having control over nine star systems all technologically advanced would make you the greatest and most successful legion, however Horus and the Lion all kicked his ass in victories with only having one planet under their belts. I don't know about Horus' planet but the Lion's was not so technologically advanced.


That only applies if you term number of victories as meaning 'most successful'. Because Fulgrim and Alpharius as two examples, certainly didn't


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

:so_happy: Perhaps true. I would state that the number of victories is a glorious one indeed. The way they are won is also very skeptical. "The Wolf at the Door" from tales of Heresy, is an interesting way to look at how civilizations chose to join or rebel against the Imperium. No matter what, it seemed as though whatever you do, its really requires maintained force and fear that require a planet to remain stable. In this case of the Guilleman and his conquered worlds, they were pretty much all together so that the Ultramarines could keep and maintain influence within them, as so the tyranid threat has even made them more unified. Without the presence rebellion seems to quell quite often.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> ... And as for him not trying to be act as a champion, I would state that you have been misinformed and that statement is false.


By "champion", I mean to champion something, as in to take up the cause of.



> In index astartes 1, Peturabo is described as being the only Primarch to actually listen and do as the Emperor commanded by securing and defending worlds... which really isn't the job of astartes as they grow weary and bitter.


I'm familiar with the Index Astartes articles. That having been said, you can't use the task of securing and defending worlds as an excuse for the Iron Warriors' bitterness. Again, why didn't the Ultramarines fall for it then?

Bottom line, we have a tale of two Legions. One has espoused their role as Humanity's defenders from day one, was well-received for it, gained immense strength for it, and ensured the prosperity of a large chunk of the growing Imperium. The other resented their role in securing/fortifying worlds and got nothing to show for it except for revolts. There's no point in excusing the conduct of the Iron Warriors, just as there's no point in ignoring that Perturabo had fundamental problems with dealing with normal humans from day one.



> Many examples in stories have shown this including heresy like the Dark Angels.


I don't think the Dark Angels correlate with the Iron Warriors at all.



> Peturabo is ony ever described in joining Horus after the genocide in Olympia, as well him and his legion are described as feeling bad for what they did which is also in the first index astartes... not so delusional.


Their growing bitterness came as a result of the many mini-revolts they had to deal with, which were a result of their own character and practices. When they returned to Olympia they were furious; they regretted what they did only AFTER they wiped out millions.

At no point do Perturabo or his warriors think "Hmmm, perhaps we're going about this all wrong..." They resent their role, one that has led to unmatched prosperity for others.



> As for him and his legion being bitter over the drastic split of his legion and heavy sieges, I would also recommend the Index Astartes books for you.


I've got 'em. 



> I mean you'd think that having control over nine star systems all technologically advanced would make [the Ultramarines] the greatest and most successful legion, however Horus and the Lion all kicked his ass in victories with only having one planet under their belts. I don't know about Horus' planet but the Lion's was not so technologically advanced.


Nonetheless, Guilliman was credited with bringing the most worlds into the Imperium. Figures are subjective. He certainly WAS the most successful in this regard. One might also posit that he was the most susccessful diplomat if he didn't have to get as many victories--a role for which the Primarchs were also meant for, but in which most of them fell hugely short.

Cheers,
P.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Holy crap, Phoebus, you know more than I do! 

Most of the time, I am content to read and forgive the plentiful cases of ignorance that I observe, content with the fact that CotE will correct them in better and "friendlier" words than I could. Most of the time...

But you are quite well informed yourself.

Child, I believe Phoebus could be a promising young protege`. Guide him well, my friend...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'm familiar with the Index Astartes articles. That having been said, you can't use the task of securing and defending worlds as an excuse for the Iron Warriors' bitterness. Again, why didn't the Ultramarines fall for it then?


The Ultramarines were not used as an entire legion to garrison worlds. They took over worlds stood there until they thought the world was complied enough like the word bearers. Not the same as staying on a planet and garrisoning it for several several years until other Iron Warrior relief comes by. The Ultramarines were able to go out and take over more worlds and use their nature. 



> Bottom line, we have a tale of two Legions. One has espoused their role as Humanity's defenders from day one, was well-received for it, gained immense strength for it, and ensured the prosperity of a large chunk of the growing Imperium. The other resented their role in securing/fortifying worlds and got nothing to show for it except for revolts. There's no point in excusing the conduct of the Iron Warriors, just as there's no point in ignoring that Perturabo had fundamental problems with dealing with normal humans from day one.


Sure it does. If we look over the fact that Peturabo wasn't a fun guy to like and so forth, then why not? Marines are instruments of war. Its in their nature. Any of the primarchs that felt under rated after doing what they had done for the heresy; whether it was obeying the emperor, or just trying to tally up all the glory. If taken away from all that glory or just unapreciated Guilleman could have fallen too. As we all know fully half of the primarchs betrayed the Emperor and most due to unapreciation. And the Imperium payed the ultimate price for glorifying some primarchs and not others. Their empire is destroyed and continously falling apart. Chaos along with the traitor legions will continue to prosper and the Imperium will falter.

[/QUOTE]I don't think the Dark Angels correlate with the Iron Warriors at all.


> I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. I said that with all Marines, Marines were created to conquer and kill enemies of the Empyream. Its in their nature, and there are many examples that depict this. Fallen Angel is a clear depiction of that and to some extent (though I'm not finished) Helsreach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> But you are quite well informed yourself.


I thank you for the kind words, but where 40k is concerned, I think Socrates said it best: "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know."



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Right, but then again we don't know just how many worlds or systems the Ultramarines brought into compliance and left in a stable, flourishing state.


The most, supposedly.



> We know he conquered less worlds than at least three or four Primarchs (possibly more) despite having the largest Legion by far.


Was not the old fluff that Guilliman conquered the most worlds but Horus (and Lion, Russ, and now Dorn) won the most victories? See my "diplomacy" premise, though I admit it's conjecture on my part.



> But at the end of the day, that is something that Lorgar and the Word Bearers also did (although for a very different purpose), ...


At the opposite end of the sprectrum, I'd posit, and less efficiently--hence his chastisement. Meaning, Guilliman affected far more planets. By contrast, Lorgar was chastised for moving too slowly (and bringing into compliance less worlds). He certainly was putting in the effort, but his results did not approach those of the Ultramarines.

Ultimately, I don't want to beat a dead horse or come off as having to prove a point. They are all literary characters, after all, and were all meant to fit a specific niche. One cannot ultimately fault Primarch X for not reaching for the stars on the basis of the author's intent. 



> Well that depends on what source for Legion sizes you use.


Yeah, I guess. I always felt that it would be more or less the same, proportionately speaking. Either way you cut it, the Ultramarines accounted for the lion's share of the ancestry of modern Chapters.



> Well first and foremost he contributed to most of Horus' victory tally.


To what effect and for how long, though? Horus' victory tally stretches back 200 years, which is why the Lion's second-best victory tally (stretching back only 50-60 years) was so important to me before Dorn trumped him for that title.

Based on "Fallen Angels", I'd wager it's unrealistic to think Fulgrim needed protection for more than 5-10 years, tops. Furthermore, during the time he fought alongside Horus, his numbers would not have been great enough to really make THAT much of a difference precisely because they were so low, right?

Ironically, despite the fact that I think Fulgrim didn't have THAT big an impact on the Great Crusade, I am convinced that, had his Legion not been ruined from the get-go, he WOULD have been the defining Primarch. In fact, I'd argue that he'd be the most likely to be targeted by Chaos.



> I can see his opinion being 'How can we be perfect, if we leave a portion of our Legion to cower in orbit to play it safe?' - or something along those lines!


A fair point, but I sense Horus' tempering hand at work here. :grin:



> Which greatly aided the Imperium yes, but im still skeptical and hesistant on agreeing that Guilliman certainly made the highest contribution to the Imperium during the Great Crusade.


Consider this: what other Primarch's works were felt more keenly by the Imperium following the Heresy besides those of Horus? From the Codex Astartes, to the division of the Legions, to the Galactic southwest being a pacified, loyal region, to the unprecedented bulk of his former Legion serving as a bulwark for the whole of the Imperium... all those things are courtesy of Guilliman.

Every other Primarch had his dramatic part to play as well, but none were so intertwined with the survival of the Imperium as he.



> However given that Fulgrim is implied to have been discovered 160 years before the Heresy (roughly 40 years into the Great Crusade), and given that he only left the company of Horus and the Luna Wolves a few years before the events of _Fulgrim_ (if memory serves), it would have taken him around 100 years, if not longer to establish his Legion to the average size.


I always took this as evidence of the bond between the Primarchs and their Legions, less so of Fulgrim's continued dependancy. In this case, I would posit that Horus' tally and Fulgrim's tally were counted separately.

Let's also remember that there's plenty of evidence that the Legions did not fight as a whole, but had forces scattered throughout the Galaxy. Fulgrim and Horus could well have fought side-by-side frequently, but that didn't mean the bulk of their Legions weren't elsewhere.



> Just another one of those mysteries or inconsistencies I guess.


Indeed!



> And I see your point about Night Haunter, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, in part at least


Fair enough. 

Good words!

Cheers,
P.

*EDIT*


ckcrawford said:


> The Ultramarines were not used as an entire legion to garrison worlds. They took over worlds stood there until they thought the world was complied enough like the word bearers. Not the same as staying on a planet and garrisoning it for several several years until other Iron Warrior relief comes by. The Ultramarines were able to go out and take over more worlds and use their nature.


What we get from the Iron Warriors Index Astartes--and from other fluff as well--is that Perturabo was forced to establish keeps in a multitude of worlds, once that often only held a squad or so of his Iron Warriors. The bitterness came from the division of his Legion and due to the losses and conflicts they suffered against those they ruled.

What we get from the Ultramarines fluff is that Guilliman conquered/brought into compliance a multitude of worlds, which in turn became productive and loyal members of the Imperium and from which the Ultramarines recruited yet more Astartes for their Legion. Recruitment implies the presence of other Astartes: at the very least an Apothecary, but the Ultramar model of recruitment and development of Aspirants and Neophytes implies that Ultramarines were present for the selection, monitoring and training of the young recruits.

The problem with the Iron Warriors is that, from day one, Perturabo was apart from his fellow humans. This is demonstrated by his upbrining in Olympia. This pattern simply continued during the Crusade, in how he handled his conquests. By contrast, Guilliman embraced the culture he was brought in, and fought to make life better for his people. _That_ is what we're talking about when we mention the _nature_ of a Legion.



> Marines are instruments of war. Its in their nature. Any of the primarchs that felt under rated after doing what they had done for the heresy; whether it was obeying the emperor, or just trying to tally up all the glory. If taken away from all that glory or just unapreciated Guilleman could have fallen too.


But other Primarchs and Astartes WERE able to be more than just breathing guns. Perturabo wasn't unappreciated, nor did he miss out on glory. He simply didn't handle his situation better. Guilliman, by contrast, did handle his situation well and had nothing to fuss over.



> As we all know fully half of the primarchs betrayed the Emperor and most due to unapreciation.


Not true.

*Horus:* due to a long-running conspiracy in which he was set up to be wounded and exposed to chaotic rituals and influences
*Fulgrim:* due to being brainwashed by a chaotic blade
*Angron:* due to being a psychotic killer _and_ being manipulated by Horus
*Alpharius:* due to believing that Horus' victory was necessary for the well-being of the Galaxy as a whole
*Magnus:* due to the manipulations of Horus
*Night Haunter:* felt the Emperor betrayed him, but was also unhinged. Verdict is out on the truth of his claims.
*Perturabo:* felt unappreciated and ill-used, despite the fact that anothe Primarch prospered from the same situation.
*Logar:* had a beef with the Emperor because he didn't want to be worshipped by him.
*Mortarion:* had a beef with the Emperor, but one that has no basis... "How dare you help me when I was laid out and about to be killed?!?"

So, really only four Primarchs felt unappreciated, and I feel only one (Haunter), _maybe_ two (Lorgar) had a significant claim for grievance.

[/QUOTE]I'm not sure you understand what I was saying.[/quote]
Apologies--I think I missed the point altogether.



> I haven't read anywhere that they had many mini-revolts. But if you got some evidence then just let me know.


I shall tactically retreat to my sources and get back with you. 



> How would you describe the many revolts other legions had?


The exception, rather than the rule? As I recall, the recurring phenomenon of revolts and bad relations between the Iron Warriors and their subjects was pretty much... unique. With the obvious exception of the World Eaters, of course, and I'd also posit that the Night Lords' methods would only last so long.



> Though his world rebelling is a different matter. I believe it was led by his adopted-father. Though correct me if I'm wrong.


His father was dead by then, I believe. It was just an example of the people not liking the Iron Warriors, I believe. Which would imply stunningly bad PR: "Soul Hunter" has the *Night Lords* being cheered on by the Nostramans after their return parade!!!



> This occurence seems to have happened more than once. Look at (though not his father but more of a former master) Luther and Lion El Johnson.


Sure, except in this case you have Chaos outright corrupting someone and turning them to rebel. At Olympia we just have normal people going "you know what, these Iron Warrior guys are JERKS!"



> Where did you come up with this? They were not used as other legions were.


Au contraire. EVERY Legion had to siege places--the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists were simply the best at it. And even if Guilliman was the ONLY other Primarch that had to fortify worlds/leave Astartes behind, he'd still be evidence of what a lie Perturabo's complaints were. "Hey P., if G. can do it and prosper, you've got no excuses!"



> Thats an extremely high speculation. There is no shard of evidence that he could have been such a great diplomat.


Why? If he won the most worlds over, but didn't have the most victories, that would imply he won many of those worlds without fighting. Now, one could argue that this was due to the sheer size of his Legion (the natives were scared to fight), but then we learn that his worlds were faithful, productive, and, most importantly, _happy_. That certainly implies non-threatening means, which makes the case that he was quite the ambassador/diplomat/smooth talker.



> If anything he has been seen to be quite the opposite. He has been in dispute with Alpharius/Omegon, Horus, Logar, Leman Russ, and even Dorn. And those are just the ones so far!


No, not really. He has a single dispute with Dorn and Russ as regards to splitting up the Legions. And he is far more lucid in his arguments than the other two--especially Dorn, whose solution according to his partisans was to kill off X number of Fists at the Cage in order to bring his Chapter down to the right size. Psyyyyyychooooo.... :shok:



> Regarding his compliance of worlds... well I'd hope so. He had 9 STAR SYSTEMS.


Dorn was the master of an interstellar empire as well. Results? Not nowhere near Guilliman's

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@Phoebus - I did have another very long reply to your post, but to cut a long story short it got accidently deleted, i'll muster up another reply later today when I can gather the willpower 

Good debate though!


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