# Proxy.... how much is acceptable?



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

So how much proxy is to much?

In my area at least l have seen a massive increase in people who proxy there army who look nothing like that army. From Tau been used as eldar and chaos used GK, even daemons being used as ninds.

just to be clear this is not about good proxy like IG used as traitor legions, l am talking about ones that don't even look like the army they "count as".

Thank you for your time


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

its hard to define, really, if theres a Valid explination for every model "counting as" something else, im fine with it, if its just to abuse the next best codex, im not. if its to place hold models while they are being worked on (like i do alot) im fine with it for that purpose too.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I picked Some Guns for Some Games, simply so a guy can playtest shit out before he goes and trades/converts/buys the actual models. Nothing sucks more than dropping money on something only to realize you hate using it haha.

Well, maybe except for SUPERAIDS. Yeah, that sucks more, but that's the only thing.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

WYSIWYG. 
Full stop.

If the model was good enough to buy, model, base and paint then it's good enough to field on the tabletop with the rest of your army.

If you tell me that the model that is in YOUR collection is armed wrong, then I'm telling you that you've bought the wrong model. 

And that isn't my fault...


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well this got me into serious trouble over on Arseseer.

I was involved in a Game of Apocalypse and i was captain of my team.

We had all gathered around and gone through the steps to play, this includes submitting all army lists and then sorting out the two teams 5 players on each side, captains are chosen and then we as captains begin to talk tactics. And this takes time to begin a game at 11am.

Well on this particualr day i had noticed a father and sone walking around the store around 9.30 and they then disappeared, only to come back at 10.45 and while i was conducting a team meating this kid began putting plastic WW2 American and German soldiers onto the table and a toy truck with a milk carton taped to it.

I went over and this kid i guess was about 11 years old, decided he was going to play with us, i said whats going on, the dad had said he's playing, the dad had said those soldiers were CSM's and the toy truck was to be a Khorne Tower of Skulls.

I then made the call as captain to call over the umpire who is also a GW staffer and made the complaint, i wasn't having this kid play at last minute and certainly nort with stuff bought at a $2.00 shop.

The dad was told to remove the soldiers and truck and the dad became very angry, they was told to leave the store.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

@ Achaylus72 - Yeah that's well past acceptable... parents are more annoying than their kids most of the time, especially when they just can't understand why their child can't join into a well organized, planned out, massive game with their completely fake army... bleh


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yeah it happens, but thats why proxies for general gameplay, outside of painting mishaps, is wrong (IE I proxy models I own cuz they are half built most times for my DE)


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

I allow people to play test a unit before they buy it if they're starting up a new army and weapons if they're thinking about doing a conversion with it (as long as people have the appropriate base for them). I start having a little bit of a problem when a whole army is used for a different army, mainly because I keep losing track of what unit is which and gets annoying after a while.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

Generally ill try to get the right guns/ models. But if i want to proxy my army as a different army then i will make a fluffy story behind why each unit has those profiles. Like the peice for my chaos legion being used as some daemons in another thread. Through i do put limits on that it has to be models of the same size, no using a gretchin as a titian!!!. Oh and what i would vote for isnt up there:

As long as it has an interesting fluff story behind it.

PS also, i would want 2 know exactally what is what be4 the game starts.


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## The Ebon Flight (May 14, 2011)

For me, it really depends on how long the gamer has been in the hobby.

For example a new player I would let proxy everything (for a few games atleast) so they can get comfortable with a list before buying stuff. Now a more veteran like gamer, I would like them proxy some things, as I assume they should have an idea of how things "should" work in the game...


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Boc said:


> @ Achaylus72 - Yeah that's well past acceptable... parents are more annoying than their kids most of the time, especially when they just can't understand why their child can't join into a well organized, planned out, massive game with their completely fake army... bleh


I know this sounds arrogant but i have spent thousands on my Apocalypse size CSM and Ork Armies, and have spent hundreds of hours of painting them, even if that kid had put his list down and did all the right things and then plopped down what he plopped down i would have still made the call to exclude the kid's army.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

dont mind people proxying so that they can playtest something .
Dont mind a new player proxying while he starts . 

But it has a limit , as it can cause confusion and cheat calling , especially as some 
players are not averse to changing loadout mid games (" missile launcher no mate its 
a melta gun honest" now im 4 inches from your land raider )


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

@Achaylus72: that is crazy but l have seen something like that happen down here with WHFB not 40k though.

@jfvz: l kind of forgot about the fluff area but l find most people who make really good fluff will have an army that match's not this CSM with a flamer is a GK arm with a hammer.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

sybarite said:


> @jfvz: l kind of forgot about the fluff area but l find most people who make really good fluff will have an army that match's not this CSM with a flamer is a GK arm with a hammer.


I may be creative, but i dont even think i could figure out a way to make that work... 
haha

On the point about the magical weapon metamorphius, i insist that my opponent has their list written down on a sheet of paper i can look at, espically if their proxying anything. I write up my own list before every match or use one of the ones i have already written up. If they want to play a cloak and dagger game it must be wysiwyg and i will still insist they write up an army list but leave it face down on a near by table, and i will do the same. But that said i will only check them if something doesnt feel right bout thier list.

As you guys probably guessed ill accept most things as long as i see they have put in an effort and tried, but the acceptable ammount varies significantally with how much i like the person through. But i dislike cheats with a passion.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don`t mind a couple proxy weapons if somebody`s experimenting with list builds but it`s not something I like to see on a regular basis. 

I personally hate proxying, I never do it myself. :no:


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I know that the GW Sydney Battle Bunker has a NO-PROXY policy, you can not under any circumstance use proxies in that store, their were too many complaints about basically extremely lazy gamers who were begining to proxy their armies to the max, so they cracked down on it. So they slapped a complete ban.

A friend of mine was disqualified from a major tournament because he'd proxied several figures in his Sisters of Battle Army, and he travelled all the way down from Newcastle to Sydney to play, only to be told no way jose.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Achaylus72 said:


> I know that the GW Sydney Battle Bunker has a NO-PROXY policy, you can not under any circumstance use proxies in that store, their were too many complaints about basically extremely lazy gamers who were begining to proxy their armies to the max, so they cracked down on it. So they slapped a complete ban.


I play there all the time, and tbh, there's still proxy. It is pretty minimal, and usually it's because they're playtesting. Actually, here's another point to bring up- for instance, I recently played a mate who proxied his stuff because the basecoat wasn't dry. What if they have the models, but they're still WIPs?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

ALL "gw bunkers" have a "no proxy" policy, technically. but people do it nonetheless. they have it in place to make people buy the models, obviously.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

One or two units until I can afford the models. I don't like to buy models before I know how they'll work on tabletop, so I do proxy, but I want to have the actual units in question.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

coke123 said:


> I play there all the time, and tbh, there's still proxy. It is pretty minimal, and usually it's because they're playtesting. Actually, here's another point to bring up- for instance, I recently played a mate who proxied his stuff because the basecoat wasn't dry. What if they have the models, but they're still WIPs?


Well i can only go on what i have read on their official rules for gamers and what my firend had done to him, so i don't know why enforced the rules on him and ignore it for everyone else.

If this is a freindly game, then go for all the proxies you want, as for turning up to an event knowing you want to play and you paint your figure and can't play with it because it is still wet then my dear chap that is poor planning and time management, also i don't care if you have an unpainted army, but i would never accept a WIP that is less than 90% complete.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i can only go on what i have read on their official rules for gamers and what my firend had done to him, so i don't know why enforced the rules on him and ignore it for everyone else.
> 
> If this is a freindly game, then go for all the proxies you want, as for turning up to an event knowing you want to play and you paint your figure and can't play with it because it is still wet then my dear chap that is poor planning and time management, also i don't care if you have an unpainted army, but i would never accept a WIP that is less than 90% complete.


usually "proxies" are punished when the store manager thinks there might be an inspection from higher up or, one of the assholes working at the store with a stick up his butt. thats personal experience anyway.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Such as in Parramatta Store.  

I will go Castle Towers all the way, it has the size to be a decent gaming store but also the relaxed non-competitive atmosphere of a club setting. I don`t visit Sydney often enough to judge, but the general policy seems to be that proxying is fine in store as long as you`re using GW or FW miniatures.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Such as in Parramatta Store.
> 
> I will go Castle Towers all the way, it has the size to be a decent gaming store but also the relaxed non-competitive atmosphere of a club setting. I don`t visit Sydney often enough to judge, but the general policy seems to be that proxying is fine in store as long as you`re using GW or FW miniatures.


I tried to paint once at the Parramatta bunker once, the lighting is piss poor and could not see any detail.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

All I ask is consistency when it comes to proxy.

For example, if someone wants to use a Chaos Marine with a Plasma Gun as a CM with a Melta fine, but don't have another marine in the same squad have a Plasma that is a Plasma or anything else, unless their is a clear way to differentiate which is which.

Otherwise, depending on range, you can switch between which model had the plasma and which has the melta.

Also I'm not in favour of setting down a whole load of orks and saying, these are all blood angels, its just too confusing. 

I'll give you an example of how I proxy in a way that I think is fair.

Until recently I had know completed Daemons, so I used Khorne Berzerkers of Bloodletters, Thousand Sons, for Pink Horrors, Plague Marines for Plague Bearers and Noise Marines for Daemonettes.

For Hound and Seekers I used CSM Bikes, I owned a Daemon Prince, and my friend owns a KoS's so that was my army pretty much in a nutshell.

It wasn't pretty, but it was easy to see exactly what was what, and that's the most important criteria for proxies IMO, can you tell what is what, first time and everytime with realative ease.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

I can let it go at a few models for a few games given that sometimes its good to test before you decide to buy them. But any further than that is out of the question.

SGMAlice


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm for proxying for testing out models but i get irritated when people continually proxy over a long period of time. I have a friend who continually proxies his captain as a terminator captain. The first few times i was fine with it as he was testing out the rules but at some point he just needs to bite the bullet and buy that termi captain model.

I proxy a lot but i tend to design the models i am using to represent the unit that i am aiming for. My imperial guard army i am sarting on for example uses almost no guard models but i've equipped them so that they are correct for a guard squad. Heck the models aren't even from the GW range, i'm using groups of models from warzone. Each one however has a distinct weapon selection and it's pretty easy to work out what is supposed to be what.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I think writing down what is being proxied is fair in casual games, and by casual I mean small friendly games between mates and friends at home with anything over 1500pts and your pushing it.

Anywhere else / anything after that it's a No-No. Even going to your FLGS or Club, you should not proxy anything - WYSIWYG is there for a reason - so people know what the model has equipped without needing to ask and It ends any and all arguments to what is what. Already people moan and whine too much about nuances in the game, what things are equipped with should not be even on the agenda.

Outside Tournaments I don't think every model needs every Item - EG: CSM's have alot of gear you need to pack on the model to make them WYSIWYG. But on a squad basis it should be clear what they are armed with - eg At least half of your assault squad should have the melta-bomb extras.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i can only go on what i have read on their official rules for gamers and what my firend had done to him, so i don't know why enforced the rules on him and ignore it for everyone else.


This friend... does he play Orcs and Goblins in Fantasy? Because when I first started playing there I played a guy with balsa wood bolt throwers, and we were made to pack up our game. I didn't say anything because he gave a crazy good deal on a bunch of Lizardmen stuff, but I should have...



Achaylus72 said:


> If this is a freindly game, then go for all the proxies you want, as for turning up to an event knowing you want to play and you paint your figure and can't play with it because it is still wet then my dear chap that is poor planning and time management, also i don't care if you have an unpainted army, but i would never accept a WIP that is less than 90% complete.


In all fairness, he turned up with the intention of painting and I asked him for the game, so if anything it's my fault.


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## Itybih2ku (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm very cheap, so I am a very avid Proxier. Though, on balance, I'm also a player at friendly basement games only 

I take two approaches towards proxying:

Finding a similar model from another company that's a helluva lot cheaper than whats available from GW. For my TK army for fantasy, this has been reaper minis filling in for some of the TK models. 

-Anubis Guards became Ushabti
-Scarab Swarms became Scarab Swarms
-Giant Scorpion became Tomb Skorpion
-Prehistoric Birds became Carrion.

I am also a fan of using paper proxies. (I've started firestorms in the past on this forum showing off my paper ork stuff.)

If its a fantasy game, I have an inverse T with a picture of the model on it. Which is glued to the appropriate size base. The height is TLOS appropriate, and I allow my opponent to use the entire "block" that is the model (base up to height) for TLOS purposes.

If its a 40k game, I use paper tubes for infantry figurines. Since the bases are round, tubes can be fit easily to the base size, and there are pictures of the model all around. Symbology or even words can be used to mark up WYSIWYG concerns. (I.E. Ork with a rocket symbol on it to show he has a rocket launcher.

For vehicles, I tend to use home-made paper crafted vehicles that fit the scale of the game. They are not the prettiest things on the block, but each one is recognizable for what it is.

Also, army lists are always available.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

My friends and I proxy all the time. We play 1,500pt non-comp games. I'm starting out, so I think that has a lot to do with it.

In my last game, my friend used just the base for one of his models. In all fairness, he had bought it less than half an hour ago (I was with him) and while I was deploying he began building it. The superglue was not setting well and some of the metal bits were not staying put (he nearly glued his fingers together over half a dozen times), so it was on an adjoining worktable.

In a prior game, I just the top hulls of my Rhinos for Predators I was thinking of buying (it was for my first 1,500pt game) and the rest of the Rhino, for well, a Rhino. By my next game, I was still doing that, but I had two Pred kits bought (and in the car). The game after, I was fielding fully built Preds.

I say it's fine to proxy, but if you play regularly with a group, make the effort to acquire/build the unit(s) you are proxying.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Itybih2ku said:


> I am also a fan of using paper proxies. (I've started firestorms in the past on this forum showing off my paper ork stuff.)


yea l still remember that huge flaming thread. no offence l am not for paper and tubes. 

l hate to vs non painted armies but l can deal with that, seeing my army that l have spent 100+hours on vs a pile of paper with scibs on it.... l would not be happy with that at all.


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