# Chaos in 40k Whats so wrong with them? what would you change



## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I hear a lot of people complain about the current CSM codex. I for one think its a very powerful list, gives you lots of variety, and allows you to fully customise your army.
Sure there will always be little niggly things, and theres certainly alot they could do when they update.

So what would you change about the CSM codex


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

I think the obvious choice would be to bring back some of the main legions with different rules to govern them.

Obviously the Iron Warriors of old where slightly overpowered but something along those lines in a less abusive fashion would be wonderful.

Secondly the daemons need to go back in, probably offset by crapper weapons in comparison to regular marines. The greater daemons at least should be available.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

just to throw this out there. 

what makes an army iron warriors? 4 heavy support? because thats effectively the difference. can't you just theme your army around ironwarriors by using choices that make sense like vindicators etc...
also ive always noticed no-one ever used combat units with ironwarriors when fluff wise they are supposed to be one of the most bloodthirsty and ferocious legions due to that once they have lain seige for months on end and then break through the defenses they will go mad with bloodlust.

the other thing is daemons are in the list, as are greater daemons.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

Dude have you ever looked at the 3rd ed codex? I want tell any Chaos Space Marine Player who joined the game in 4th edition codex to find someone elses or buy the 3rd ed codex and look at it, I gaurantee you will take the codex to the bathroom and masturbate to it. I did. jk. but yea theres a ton of reason why people would complain about the new codex after playing with the 3rd edetion dex. the first thing i can think is legion specific rules. there was a rare occasion to met another list who ran a similar list as you. i know i played lots of sonic preds, sonic havocs and sonic troop choices. all the iron warrior stuff was amazing, 4 heavy support slots the only army that could field vindicators with damonic posession, infested hull, that was a F14 S12 B11, armor that could repair destroyed weapons, also iron warriors could field a basalisk as well , also Obliterators had assualt cannons and they were elite choices so you could field 9 oblits as elites take 4 heavy supports and a Massivly pimped out daemon prince with a 2+ armor save with opther cool stuff from the armory. but yea the new dex has factors that are good to it, like the ability to take daemon princes for cheap and being able to take 2, also things are cheaper and you can take more. but the codex lacks all the fluff the most amazing art work, the armory, the legion spec rules.
If you ask me the only thing the Chaos Codex is missing is the 3rd edition codex. if they just mixed the 3rd and fourth ed codex together and made stuff cheaper and allowed squadrons to heavies i would be happy, also give us the ability to take Chaos Daemons as allies. but yea pick up a copy of the original codex fall in love with an army and the dex, all the fluff and all the customising of the army you chose. then go and pick up a Chaos 4th ed codex and watch as your army just gets skull fucked because GW nurfed us hard in the eye socket.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

jigplums said:


> I hear a lot of people complain about the current CSM codex. I for one think its a very powerful list, gives you lots of variety, and allows you to fully customise your army.
> Sure there will always be little niggly things, and theres certainly alot they could do when they update.


Chaos Marines were a powerful army in 4th edition mostly because many people didn't run Librarians or similar models with anti-psychic abilities which made Lash of Submission brutally hard to deal with especially since during that time transports were basically deathtraps.

As for having a lot of variety and allowing one to customize their army, how exactly do you arrive at this conclusion? I'd think that the majority of people would argue that it's the exact opposite. We have a book that's so poorly internally balanced that almost anyone can rattle off the few good units in the book without even having to think about it (that's Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Obliterators for those unaware). Taking anything that deviates from this short list of units weakens the army as a whole until you end up with some clusterfuck with nearly no focus or ability to do anything effectively on the tabletop.

Sure, one can freely mix units that worship various gods. You could do that in the 3.5 Edition Chaos Marine book too if you opted not to play one of the distinct Traitor Legions and ran an army General with the Mark of Chaos Undivided. What one can't do is play one of the Traitor Legions in an effective and satisfying manner due to the lack of Legion-specific army lists or special rules or anything else to make this possible. Games Workshop seems to be under the impression that people like Renegade Space Marines and want to play the Red Corsairs or some variation of them. The truth of the matter is that most players don't give a shit about Space Pirates (just look at how the Dark Eldar sell for proof ) and want to have an army of the ultimate badasses that nearly tore the Imperium apart during the Heresy.

I could go on, but it's 6am and I'm yet to sleep... so yeah.


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

5tonsledge said:


> Dude have you ever looked at the 3rd ed codex? I want tell any Chaos Space Marine Player who joined the game in 4th edition codex to find someone elses or buy the 3rd ed codex and look at it, I gaurantee you will take the codex to the bathroom and masturbate to it. I did.


Is that the one with the Daemonette on the centerfold?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

The Boz said:


> Is that the one with the Daemonette on the centerfold?


oh shit i havent laughed so hard i actually pissed my pants when i read your post. thank you for making my night worth while. but seriosly jerk it to the 3rd ed codex.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

It's a bad joke unless you play an unfluffy army or Black Legion. (And, of course, the two are not incompatible.)

Say what you will about the Iron Warriors and their incredible rules, all I want is cultists and Alpha Legion rules.

Traitor marines need to be more powerful. They're meant to be veterans of 10,000 years of unholy war, not Joe Ultrasmurf, age 112.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

jigplums said:


> so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
> QUOTE]
> 
> No I think its more about how the book has lots of units people want ot use but they are so overpriced for what they do its difficult to make a competitive list. I dont think anyone is denying you can make a powerful chaos army, its the fact that you cant make one for most of the 4 or 9 factions the codex is allegedly representing.
> ...


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

jigplums said:


> so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
> i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.


all the stuff thats been posted and thats the only thing you retained from it. no man it was more about the experience of the 3rd ed codex. your army actually meant something. Katie is 100% correct about the custom things you could do to your army. and compared to the new dex i think the new one would win becasue my list is solid(plus im happy doom sirens are S5 ap3 and blast masters are now ap3 instead of 4). but the 3rd ed codex was better becasue I didnt Play Space Pirates i played Emperor's Children. that actually meant something in the last codex becasue their was items in the chaos army that only an EC player could obtain. in the new codex its Space Pirates and no matter how slaaneshi i dress my marines up to be they are just simply space pirates. Anyone can mix and match my list everyone can take noisemarines and slaanesh Daemon Princes with Lash. Oh and a big thing missing is Khrone Bezerkers dont have Chain axe special rules anymore. no more 2D6 on armor.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

jigplums said:


> so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
> i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.


Thats exactly the opposite to what I said. :crazy:

Infact I even stated that the old book was overpowered and needed to be less abusive.

To be honest though 40k in its current state is so shit and different to 4th comparing the two books is pretty pointless. I just think chaos should include proper daemons and have legion specific options. 

The marines get 5 different books, why don't chaos have more than one or a book containing more than the obvious "default" choices as pointed out by katie.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Chaos Codex is just too narrow right now. I like the Thousand Sons but right now I'm not that bothered about picking up the Codex and building an army of them because They have 2 choices in the Book, arguably more if you choose Lord or Princes with the Mark. That's why I play Chaos Daemons, I get 1 choice for each god in each slot so I can play a Solely Tzeentch Army if I want to. It might not be good but I can. 

They need to bring back the diversity and Demonic Rivalry etc. Kharn Leading your Thousand Sons might be effective but it's hardly correct. I'm not saying etc faction should have it's own book, but each faction should at least be able to field and army of that faction.

Aramoro


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

The old rules made theme armies not just possible, but effective. You Have the gods number of models in your list? Free champion. Want to take a lot of Bezerkers? Have your army led by a Khornate General. Want to mix and match? then specialist troops stay elites. And sooooo many options for your lords! You literally built your lord from the ground up, even into a daemon prince if you wanted. You could give your squads a Mark, give them all sorts of cool veteran abilities, outfit them with wild abandon, upgrade your possessed with appropriate mutations, have access to some awesome daemon weapons, have characters which were more than simple beatsticks...

Were there problems with it? Yeah, the Iron Warriors being the stand out example, but there were other builds that lacked balance. The idea and foundation of how it worked though was brilliant, and why they changed that into such a bland codex....

The new codex is fine balance wise (leaving aside the Lash), and you can make different lists with it. However, it lacks character, it doesn't reward you for making a fluffy list, doesn't allow you all the little changes that could make your army unique and intricate. Hell, besides lash, all the Character options have no effects but the ability to kill the enemy!

Anyway... new codex is fine, but boring. That's all I have to say on it.


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## Kristopholes (Sep 2, 2010)

I thought Katie and Yllib Enaz made good points. The codex that the CSM currently have is so frickin bland that if you don't stick to that short list that Katie put out then you are in for a bad match (most of the time). With all the specialization that GW has done with the Space Marines and how overpowered some of those factions have become you would think that Chaos would at least be able to break off into their separate gods. Also, personally I think the Daemon Prince has been sucker punched by this codex. It still has decent stats and it is pretty cheap but then I can't help but look at the Daemon codex where a Daemon Prince can cost from 80 to about 300 points b/c of the ridiculous amount of variety given to it. That's just me though.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

The things I miss most are the Vet skills and the Vehicle upgrades. Being able to really theme out a full army with the skills was awesome and having Parasitic Possession on your Predator just rocked. Rules wise, my Thousand Sons are actually more powerful with the current codex than they were with the old so long as you can get past the fact that there are no actual cult rules anymore. I know that this bothers some people but I am not one of them as I can paint the army in a particular scheme and that is good enough for me, I don't need specific rules to think I am playing the army I want.

That said however I would love to see the cults, and yes the named daemons, added back into the codex. Or even the ability to summon the units from Codex: Daemons. GW did drop the ball a bit with the current codex but it isn't the utter shit many make it out to be, just like the previous codex was certainly not as wonderful as many seem to think.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

jigplums said:


> so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
> i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.


Oh, and I guess the fluff, ridiculous lack of choice, crappy design, and free attitude with a scalpel have nothing to do with it then. Do you only rate codices by their power?


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I agree with what has been said so far, so let me go on to something new. 

If you've played Chaos both in DoW2 and on the tabletop the differences will make your heart ache. In DoW2, Cultists are dead important, especially if they're given a grenade launcher. Several of them can send Tac Marines home crying, or if the Cultists aren't upgraded, they can get into melee with them, blow themselves up and be an immense pain in the ass. And when Chaos Marines start to appear, shit hammers into the fan like theres no tomorrow. Tzeentchian Marines shoot everything to pieces and Khornate Marines can kill anything short of a Tier 3 CC-specialist (Nobz, Carnifex, Assault Terminators, etc) or a pimped out, higher lvl CC-specialist HQ (Chaos Lord, namely, but even that is not an easy job). Khornate Dreadnoughts WTFPWN almost everything in close combat, though Bright Lances and the like bring it down relatively quickly. Oh and lets not forget the Lord and the Sorcerer. The Lord is a killing machine, if hes lvl 10 with PoLC, MoK and the lvl1 armour (or lvl 2 if there are lots of big units) hes even worse than a Dreadnought because he won't lose HP AT FUCKING ALL. The Sorcerer is a very tactical troll, hopping around and throwing Doombolts that can maim lesser units (and even tougher guys as the Sorcerer lvls up), and even if he gets into CC he can put up a good fight.

Now, as any CSM player can tell, the tabletop is lacking all these. We have no Cultists, useless HQs (DPs aside, though Khornate DPs are worse than anything available), HURPADURP crazy Dreadnoughts, expensive and ineffective Rubric Marines (take 2 of these and you could take 3 units of Berzerkers instead); though our Zerkers are of course great but I wish there were other competitive troop choices in our Codex (and no, PMs are no way as good as Zerkers in terms of overall effectiveness, so no mono-Nurgle army for you).

I used to love CSM, I used to love 40K, but now all I want is to finish assembling the last 5 Raptor conversions and 5 Khornate Bikers (Mad Max FTW) and I'm done with them. Of course I'll paint and play them but I'm not planning on spending another penny on them until a decent Codex comes out. If I want to play with my friends I'll go to my LGS. If I want to play with my Chaos Space Marines I play DoW2. Because, as it had been said before, I want to play the heroes of the Horus Heresy and not the Coyote and Team Rocket style Space Pirates


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Katie has it. I hate the fact that I can't play a competitive list without have to be forced into one particular build.

Guard have serveral competitive builds each with their own flavour - (although mostly mech based) - Air Cav, Leafblower, ArCo. Marines, less so - but it resolves around Bikes, Vulkan or Pedo. Eldar - Jetseer, Water, or Wraithguard.

One build armies are now relegated to 3rd edition armies - Necrons, Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar - respectively, Destroyers, Mech Meltas, Waterbuild, and Lance Spam.

Yes, I understand that Tier 1 builds from the more powerful lists - r.e Leafblowers, and Jump pack Dreadnoughts from Blood Angels results in demolishing quite a lot of lists around. But the fact I can turn up with an army of my own design with my Marines, or Elysians (whether used as Air Cav, or IA Elysians), and still have a reasonable chance of surviving to the quarters or semi's.

I'm willing to bet that if you look at a cross section of the armies in the later stages of the tournament scene, there'll be about 5 different armies split over 24+ lists, of which between each equivalent, you'd be able to count the differences on one hand.

It's not just the exclusivity of the rules for the different legions - Marines (not the variant Codices, I mean the Vanillas) have the rules for Chapters, but they're about Chapter specific as a shit in the woods. IG, the same (not to mention you can take Alrahem, Chenkov, Creed, and Yarrick all in the same army). I mean, in Fantasy, people play Warriors of Chaos, even though they're built one of two ways now exclusively, and they've lost the rules and limitations of the Marks that Hordes used to have. However, they're very popular all the same - and that's due to the capabilities of Warhammer Magic Items and the different possibilities available.

I don't really know what it is about CSM, but it just doesn't Gel. There's nothing in it that really grabs my attention as a really nice unit (other than Defilers). All the others, at the minute, feel just like bad marines - which is exactly what Dark Eldar seemed to be - Bad Eldar in different colours, and neither are particularly popular. I had the same issue when they got rid of the Traits for marines.

Reintroducing the capabilities of customizing your Daemon Prince, and perhaps tieing that to your army build would be amazing.

For example giving your Chaos Lord Daemonic Flight would allow Raptors to become Core. Giving your Lord a Mark of Khorne makes Berserkers Core, while the rest stay as Elites. Just that itself would make them more exciting.

@ Khorothis - I wouldn't ever, ever, ever. EVER use DoW, let alone DoW2 in an argument about the Table Top. I'm not too fussed if I ever see Cultists in a list yet.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

@Vaz

Sure the gameplay is completely different for both games, but that wasn't the point. What I meant is that there is a lot of potential in the CSM Codex but the units there just lack the oomph (either stats or rules) that would make them useful. Also, if I could take Cultists I so fucking would, thats one of the things that differentiates CSM from SM: we have a couple badass Marines who herd meatshields in front of them so they don't get killed unnecessarily, while SM just zerg rush you with Terminators and Movie Marines. Oh and their newest Chapter Codex, of course.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Someone at GW said that C:CSM is more 'Codex Renegades'.

If that's the case, Fuck off back to your box and write me Codex Chaos space marines.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Orochi said:


> If that's the case, Fuck off back to your box and write me Codex Chaos space marines.


As I recall, most of the people responsible for this atrocity actually have fucked off. XD


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> As I recall, most of the people responsible for this atrocity actually have fucked off. XD


But not because of this Codex but for other, more irrelevant and uninteresting reasons.  Though it is a relief that those two are gone...


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

So basically chaos marine players were spoiled with the older codex with it's diversity and ability to option up units? (I missed that edition, so haven't the slightest clue to the difference between that one and the current release.)

The current codex is ok, not too flavorful overall but not nearly as bland as say the necron codex is.

I would have loved to been back into 40k in time to have used the last chaos codex, but sadly, I got back into it just as 5th came out. I do have the original chaos codex, (second edition I believe it is,) and it is better than the current one as far as characters, troops and options. Ah well, some day we might get a new one that has something for everyone to really like.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The current chaos list needs some more options and more fluffing up, then it would be ok. The worse thing is that the most common build tends to be slaaneshi DP leading and army of plague marines, and oblits, that just leaves a foul taste.

It wouldn't wreck the game if the lords mark affected the chart choices, and favoured unit got a free champion. They should get cultists and traitors as a weak cheap unit, but they not be spammable, deamons should be god specific rather than generic.

It's one of the problems, do people want fluffy lists or ultra competitive ones? None of the 4 god legions were good in the old codex, all that was around were IW and AL infiltraiting cultist spam lists.

That said it really depends on whether you want to be a fluff lawyer or just use fluff-as, Tzeentch disc riders as raptors, converted heavy noise marines with guitars as havocs.


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

The problem with the latest CSM codex is that they stole my Brotherhood of Nurgle colour scheme and re-named them The Purge.

Strange, but this put me off painting any more Chaos marines and the army got shelved. Probably because I'd spent time creating the colour scheme and fluff then suddenly, bam, this is The Purge everyone. :angry:


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> almost anyone can rattle off the few good units in the book without even having to think about it (that's Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Obliterators for those unaware). Taking anything that deviates from this short list of units weakens the army as a whole until you end up with some clusterfuck with nearly no focus or ability to do anything effectively on the tabletop


Personally I have to disagree, I've had pretty good results with Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Vindicator, Bikers & the Chaos Space Marines themselves. However having acquired a copy of the old codex and flicked through it's pages many times I know which army I would have gone for. A sonic-weapon heavy Emperor's children list.

I've actually seen such an army gracing the pages of a really old White Dwarf and it's simply incredible, making me a bit nostalgic. Then I look at the Death Guard tactica in the same issue (291 I think) and I'm reminded of just how confusing that codex could be for none-Chaos players.

Which is the main point GW felt they had to address, it seemed to complicated for people to understand, Death Guard & Rhinos being a case in point.

However I'll be honest and say that now I've come to see the new codex as failing in several important respects. First they scraped to many units, second they didn't add in anything new and third they screwed up Chaos Lords, particulalry Khorne and Nurgle lords.

What's needed are simple rules such as if you take Kharn or Lucius then you can only have their mark in your army. This way we get some of the old legions back without them becoming to confusing.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

My wish list for the next Chaos 'dex:

1. Fix Possessed and Dreads. I love both these units, but i hate the fact that any chump can point out 10 reasons why units X, Y, and Z are all better.

2. Make god-specific HQ units affect the army. Maybe cult troops get a small buff or discount, maybe your HQs restrict the Daemons you can summon, anything.

3. Make Daemons god-specific. Shit i just hate the fact that Bloodletters and Plaguebearers all have the same stats under the "lesser daemons" heading.

4. Make Greater Daemons customizable. I can understand why they're not as good as in the Daemons codex, but damn, why cant i give my Bloodthirster wings? HIS MODEL COMES WITH WINGS!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wow, look at this. Look at all the post that point out every obvious flaw in 4th CSM. 

1) Lack of builds, or Legion Rules. Yet SMs get 5 Dexes.
2) No Specififc Daemons. Their is 4 Chaos Gods. Not 1 Generic bland.
3) Special Characters are "worthless".
4) Lack of Viable Units. As Katie said, Lash, Zerks, PMs, and Oblits are the only strong build. 

Yet their still those that try to argue that the current Dex is Strong, that their is no Limitations, that the Older Dex was Broken. Yes the Current is strong, No the older Dex had no Limits ethier, and both can be abuse. We want the Older one back.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yet still everyone plays them. According to, well, everyone, the CSM Codex is a shit book. So why do people *keep playing them?* :ireful2:

Midnight


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because they're interesting for the most part, not Wrist slitting gaydar or 3 unit necrons.

Doesn't stop them being shit as fuck though.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

After I saw this thread I dug up my chaos 3.5 ed 'dex and cried as I read it. I think the thing I loved the most about it was the customization it offered. I could tailor an army to exactly ; the way I wanted to play it, the fluff I wanted it to have and the legion/renegades I wanted to use.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm sure that, with the exception of tournies, you could use the 3rd ed Chaos 'Dex? As long as you both agreed on it (I'd personally have no problem playing against 3rd ed. Chaos or Orks) then it should be ok.

Midnight


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Yet still everyone plays them. According to, well, everyone, the CSM Codex is a shit book. So why do people *keep playing them?* :ireful2:
> 
> Midnight


Well thats easy, cause ALOT of the older CSM Players spent ALOT of TIME and MONEY on CSM to just shelve it. The rest of those CSM Players never seen or played CSM 3.5 so are ignorant to CSM past glories. So heres to waiting for 5th.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> Yet still everyone plays them. According to, well, everyone, the CSM Codex is a shit book. So why do people *keep playing them?* :ireful2:
> 
> Midnight


Because it's either use the shitty Chaos Marine Codex or don't play Chaos Marines at all (that is unless you use another Codex to 'count as' Chaos Marines. Space Wolves is popular for this).

Then there's the poor souls who are new to the hobby and don't know any better for they were not around in the days of the 3.5E Chaos Space Marine Codex.


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

Bring Back 3.5:ireful2:


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## Inquisitor Malaclypse (Dec 6, 2008)

i like the current codex, but it is lacking. aside from BL, and cult troops, it's hard to write army lists for other traitor legions.

it's a matter of catering to what sells, IMO. GW is not going to downplay BL and cult troops because they've been pushing that line of fluff/models/builds down our throats since at least 2nd edition, so they wont back track on this at all.

the won't cater to other Legions and their style of warfare (i.e. builds) because they're not as popular as what's available. yeah, there are people out there who like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion, but GW won't write specific rules for them as they probably think that the current generic codex fits those Legions just fine.

if that's the case, i disagree: IMO the cult traitors need their own rules, but the counter point, what makes up Iron Warriors army (or any other non-cult Legion)? there's enough fluff out there that you could justify almost any build for any of the non cult Legions.

*WHY* couldn't any of these Legions have members that are devoted to a Chaos god? or why does a mark have to be devotion to a Chaos god? maybe the Night Lords have a unit of really bloodthirsty marines to instill fear in a population, so you can have NL with Berzerker stats.

which goes on to another great/horrible thing about this hobby, which is the 'count as' rule. as long as your models have the the right gear represented on them, then it doesn't matter what they look like, so yeah, you could have a unit of Possessed models in Word Bearer colors count as Plague Marines.

this is not to take away from some of the previous points that have been made (Katie, jezlad and others), but if there's a trend in 5th edition it's that you can use any codex for the rules set you want to use, and fuck all what your model look like.

why else do we have BA/SW counts as World Eaters, or that you could use DH, WH, or even C:SM for counts as Alpha Legion?

that's what i think anyway.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

I can understand why GW felt that had to simplify the Chaos Marine codex, after all it was probably really confusing if you hadn't read the book and you found yourself fighting a Chaos Marine army (the rules surrounding Death Guard and rhinos being the best example I can think of).

At the same time I would love to have used the Emperor's Children as they were in this codex. For me that's the worst aspect of what they did with the current book, scrapping so much and introducing nothing new. Surely there was someone at GW who thought this was a bad idea, if only from a marketing point of view.

Other codices have after all seen the introduction of new units, or reintroduction of old ones and generally been accepted, so why couldn't this one have done the same?

Personally I'd be happy if come the next codex, two or three years from now, they reintroduce some of the old units and upgrades, because we're not going to see anything like the previous codex ever again.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Inquisitor Malaclypse said:


> why else do we have BA/SW counts as World Eaters, or that you could use DH, WH, or even C:SM for counts as Alpha Legion?


I know why, cause GW took away Legion Specific Rules away. So now CSM players are Force to look at Loyaltist Dexes. They have SO many of them after all. :grin:



The Sullen One said:


> I can understand why GW felt that had to simplify the Chaos Marine codex, after all it was probably really confusing if you hadn't read the book and you found yourself fighting a Chaos Marine army (the rules surrounding Death Guard and rhinos being the best example I can think of).
> 
> At the same time I would love to have used the Emperor's Children as they were in this codex. For me that's the worst aspect of what they did with the current book, scrapping so much and introducing nothing new. Surely there was someone at GW who thought this was a bad idea, if only from a marketing point of view.
> 
> ...



Just today I was reading my 3.5 Dex copy and there is really nothing Complicated about it at all. All the rules are there and in plain wording. If my opponet has a problem I would go through the book for Deathguard and point out the way the army works. I mean the SM dex with all its SCs granting rules and how your Bike Captain makes bikes count as scoring is just as complicated. Hell Chaos Daemons suffer as a result from this nonsense ruination of CSM. Its like fantasy Daemons with round bases. GW what are u doing :ireful2:.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

The only real problem with the 3.5 codex was balance, which could easily be fixed, and organization. It was pretty damn hard to write a list having to flip back and forth between the armory and the units, and stuff. The rest of the codex was extraordinarily awesome.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

I got a whole lot of beefs with the current book:
1: Bring back the traitor legions feel. The great traitor legions are rarely mentioned in the current book of shit. This is indeed codex piratemarines. It sucks. Its perfectly ok to make a codex CSM renegades based on Black Legion, Red Corsairs and their likes. This does however require that some codex Traitor Legions book is released too, preferably more then one.

2: Real marks _on the normal units_. That means all none cult units. Right now in a normal CSM unit when you buy a random mark 1 guy gets the mark on a silly banner and all his hangarounds get the benefit of it until he gets killed by wound allocation. Then were back to a simple non-marked unit again...
Also make the marks cost per model again. Right now a lot of the marks simply aint bought because they are prohibitively expensive on smaller units. 

3: Some actual balance amongst the units. Possessed and Spawns are amongst the most price unworthy units in the game, while the DP is extremely price worth, in fact so cheap that there really aint a reason not to only buy them as HQs. This would really help to diversify the armies amongst players.

4: More FO options and at least a few limitations:
4A: Generally some limitations would do the book good, and make the armies more varied. Like how the previous book made the mark on the general important for which cult units that stayed troops, and so on. 
This would also bring back some use of playing undivided. Right now there aint a single reason to have an undivided character at all, and very few ones for using regular CSM.
The current proportion of marks amongst DPs is probably 8 Slaanesh ones to 1 other.

4B: :hq: The DP should at least have a few options of wargear, and have some fucking frag grenades as stock equipment. The Lord desperately needs options that aint pure shit. Right now he is the shit choice from all angles. More wargear, usable daemonweapons and so on. The Sorcerer should have a psycic hood at least as an option...

4C :elites: have 2 playable units at top. More units, and make all at least a bit playable. SM have 8 options here, something along that line.

4D: :troops: This is the extremely strong section of the book. This would probably do good with some limitation based on the lord. 

4E: All the 3 :fa: choices are sub-par, its just a matter of how bad it is. More choices, at least over a handful of them, that also are playable. 

4F: The :hs: is a bit better, there are actually a bunch of playable options here. This section could probably do with some limitation to the Oblitetrators and some minor tweaks with the other choices.

5: More Daemon Engines and more vehicle upgrade options. And make the Dreadclaw Drop Pods a transport option!

6: The chance of playing a specific traitor legion again. Im tired of looking at my (for example) 12 Blastermasters standing on a shelf collecting dust. Bring back some real options!

7: Bring back the elite feel of the CSM. They are supposed to be amongst the best warriors in the galaxy but they feel like inferior SM on many points.

8: Daemons should either be in, for real, or out. Not some half arsed mix like now. Regardless of whether undivided units have access to them or not the 4 god-specific legions should have access to their patron gods daemonic minions.

9: Some balance amongst the special characters. Seriously, compare Kharn and Lucius and just cry.
This is the point I care the least about, but it still needs to be done.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

As for SCs go make the price really reflect the Character. Lucious should be as cheap as Fabious, and Huron should be WAY cheaper. Fabious himself should be a few pts cheaper. Ahriman should be around Hurons pts. Kharn, Typhus, and Abbaddon are closest to the right Price.

For Chaos Lords, bring back the Daemonic Gifts. I can in the 3.5 Edition, I can tool out a Chaos Lord aound 135 pts with Dark Blade, Rune, and Aura. Now I have a Chaos Lord Str 6, 5+ Inv., EW, 4-5 Attacks, with a Power Weapon. This close to DP can hide in a Squad and be transported via rhino or LR. FOR A 135 PTS!!! Holy Shit!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I can understand the confusing aspect. A lot of GW revenue comes from kids. The old codex had so many options it could be easy for said kids to make a few mistakes. (death guard are not allowed missile launchers for example).

Secondly the old codex relied on a lot of trust. When playing against someone you had to make sure that their lord had his fair share of toys and other things.

Thirdly variety is good but most people just went for power (whether u did or not I do not care. I am referring to the majority) and most blokes faced either iron warriors or alpha legion infiltrating cultist daemon bomb.

I agree that the current dex could be improved but I just wanted to point out some bad points about the old dex.

On a side note I do have to say I like the exclusion of manrapers and khornate chainaxes (because I hated facing them) and that the new codex does focus on renegades and even they suck! (who liked the old idea behind red corsairs that they were marine traitors and wore their old uniforms with a red cross splashed on somewhere. The new dex pictures them as blood angels gone bad. BORING!)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> For Chaos Lords, bring back the Daemonic Gifts. I can in the 3.5 Edition, I can tool out a Chaos Lord aound 135 pts with Dark Blade, Rune, and Aura. Now I have a Chaos Lord Str 6, 5+ Inv., EW, 4-5 Attacks, with a Power Weapon. This close to DP can hide in a Squad and be transported via rhino or LR. FOR A 135 PTS!!! Holy Shit!


Well that’s one excellent argument for not bringing 3.5 back.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Well that’s one excellent argument for not bringing 3.5 back.


Yeah it could be worse, like all my CSMs could have Drop Pods, Thunder Wolves, Furious Charge/Counter Charge, and 4 cheap ass JoWW baddies. Oh wait.... thats your army.:laugh:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Bringing the 3.5E 'Dex back into the current edition would be an absolute disaster without some serious modification. I don't think anyone's under the impression that it was a perfect Codex, but most would agree that it was better than what we're stuck with now.

Personally, I think if they went through the 3.5 Codex and did a bit of re-jigging and re-balancing we'd be good to go.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Bringing the 3.5E 'Dex back into the current edition would be an absolute disaster without some serious modification. I don't think anyone's under the impression that it was a perfect Codex, but most would agree that it was better than what we're stuck with now.
> 
> Personally, I think if they went through the 3.5 Codex and did a bit of re-jigging and re-balancing we'd be good to go.


If GW wanted more money, take 3.5, and split it into Legions (with Legion Rules and all of the Original Armory) and Cult (with the Books of Chaos Rules and Cult Armory options). Then give the option of using Caemons Troops/HQ for those Summon Daemon Options in both Dexes. 

Then a little tweaking for balance. Then give Raptors their Hit and Run/Daemonic Visage rules.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

There shouldn't be any Daemons in the next book, this is Codex:Chaos Space Marines after all.

However I'll back the idea that there should be some demarcation between the traitor legions and the renegades, such as the latter being able to use stuff like Whirlwinds or Land Speeders, maybe even scouts.


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> However I'll back the idea that there should be some demarcation between the traitor legions and the renegades, such as the latter being able to use stuff like Whirlwinds or Land Speeders, maybe even scouts.


Actually both could have Land Speeders as every Legion had them during the Heresy.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Too true. Would be awesome to have jetbikers for chaos!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I've always been a fan of the two codex theory. Codex renegade/pirate, and codex Chaos Legion with the latter having all the demonic stuff like possessed, and DP's while codex renegade/pirate would have all the newer tec and or retarded amounts of assault weapons.


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## hellsteath (Jun 29, 2010)

Send em back to the stone age of the first 3rd edition book  okok not really, I dont have a chaos marine army but they do need more oomph. Some new interesting heavy support slots would be nice, and maybe more psychic powers as there is only a couple that really hold up to scrutiny.


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> I've always been a fan of the two codex theory. Codex renegade/pirate, and codex Chaos Legion with the latter having all the demonic stuff like possessed, and DP's while codex renegade/pirate would have all the newer tec and or retarded amounts of assault weapons.


I like this. I think Chaos Daemons was a big mistake, and a blatant double cash-cow moment.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The next codex releases for CSM are going to offer much more for the fluff inspired players. There is going to be a lot of Legion specific stuff. My sources told me that it is not out of the question that at least 3 codices will be produced for CSM, 2 dedicated to specific Legions and the 3rd for CSM in general (like the Ultramarines being the generic SM codex).


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

And all traitor legionnaires acknowledge Horus Luprecal as their spiritual liege...



In all seriousness, that would be the first good idea to come out of GW in some time.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The Boz said:


> I like this. I think Chaos Daemons was a big mistake, and a blatant double cash-cow moment.


Tell that to all the dedicated Daemons players out there, who've built great looking armies and made effective use of them. Besides now that the genie's out of the bottle...



darklove said:


> The next codex releases for CSM are going to offer much more for the fluff inspired players. There is going to be a lot of Legion specific stuff. My sources told me that it is not out of the question that at least 3 codices will be produced for CSM, 2 dedicated to specific Legions and the 3rd for CSM in general (like the Ultramarines being the generic SM codex).


I don't suppose those sources gave you an idea as to which legions those will be, because they won't be any of the monogod legions if there's only two.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I miss doomrider.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Orochi said:


> I miss doomrider.


He was the friggin' bomb.

I recently got back to the game after a multi-year hiatus, and when I picked up the 4th Edition codex a piece of me died. I was pissed off to no other. 3.5 was beautiful in every aspect. No two Chaos armies were alike. That was the Golden Age for the Chaos Marines if I had a say in it. I have never read anything like it before or since (admittedly not too many). It was a work of art.

"Doing good" playing chaos does rely on it's mandatory mono-build with obligatory Lash Princes, Plague Marines, etc. I think it is a shame that it has come to this. We, as followers of the Dark Gods, need a return to the familiar. An easy re-balancing of the 3.5 'dex is just the trick. I don't imagine it would be hard either. Frankly, with all the different rules, I think it really brought Chaos Marines out to what they really are - pissed off Space Marines that have maimed, killed, and burned for 10,000 years.

The only thing that bothers me is that I don't see a return to the old days. I have a feeling that Chaos will not be "un-nerfed" as things that are dumbed down have a tendency to stay that way. I just hope that GW does the right thing and appeases their groaning and moaning Chaos customers - because I want to see that return. Man, it would be epic. I would be a happy camper.

As a loyal follower of Chaos, I will keep playing and keep waiting till that day comes when Chaos will shine again. Until then - I will continue reading and re-reading 3.5 and remember days gone by and tales of greatness. Maybe not so dramatic, but it sounded good.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> "Doing good" playing chaos does rely on it's mandatory mono-build with obligatory Lash Princes, Plague Marines, etc. I think it is a shame that it has come to this. We, as followers of the Dark Gods, need a return to the familiar. An easy re-balancing of the 3.5 'dex is just the trick. I don't imagine it would be hard either. Frankly, with all the different rules, I think it really brought Chaos Marines out to what they really are - pissed off Space Marines that have maimed, killed, and burned for 10,000 years.


Hate to say this but the obligatory build you mention isn't that good. A decent Tau army will go through it like a knife through butter.



Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> The only thing that bothers me is that I don't see a return to the old days. I have a feeling that Chaos will not be "un-nerfed" as things that are dumbed down have a tendency to stay that way. I just hope that GW does the right thing and appeases their groaning and moaning Chaos customers - because I want to see that return. Man, it would be epic. I would be a happy camper.
> 
> As a loyal follower of Chaos, I will keep playing and keep waiting till that day comes when Chaos will shine again. Until then - I will continue reading and re-reading 3.5 and remember days gone by and tales of greatness. Maybe not so dramatic, but it sounded good.


Got to agree with you there, GW isn't going to go back to the older book for the simple reason that they regard the newer one as easier to understand. Besides if they did, you'd get two things:

1) Chaos Marine players moaning because they can't take Plague Marines with Lash Princes anymore.

2) Everyone else complaining because their armies haven't been given the same kind of attention. Ork players would want to get the clan system back (well the stupid ones would, current codex is fine), Eldar armies would want the Craftworld book restored and so on.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

The Sullen One said:


> I can understand why GW felt that had to simplify the Chaos Marine codex, after all it was probably really confusing if you hadn't read the book and you found yourself fighting a Chaos Marine army (the rules surrounding Death Guard and rhinos being the best example I can think of).
> 
> At the same time I would love to have used the Emperor's Children as they were in this codex. For me that's the worst aspect of what they did with the current book, scrapping so much and introducing nothing new. Surely there was someone at GW who thought this was a bad idea, if only from a marketing point of view.
> 
> ...


did anyone else notice that they did the samething to the Generic Loyalist Space Marines aswell to chaos.
I didnt realize that they were so terrible in the new codex until i picked up the 5th ed codex a couple of days ago. They did the same thing they took all the individual chapters and smushed them together and made smurfs. you can add any Space Marine Hq to a list and none of the chapters have specific rules like they use to. so its kind of the same thing. But believe me i still think GW put it in every Chaos players Eye socket without lube on the 4th ed codex. its like they were punishing us for being so good in the 3rd ed.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

darklove said:


> The next codex releases for CSM are going to offer much more for the fluff inspired players. There is going to be a lot of Legion specific stuff. My sources told me that it is not out of the question that at least 3 codices will be produced for CSM, 2 dedicated to specific Legions and the 3rd for CSM in general (like the Ultramarines being the generic SM codex).


Im still hoping that they will remake "Slaves to Darkness" and "the Lost and the Damned", and one book for the undivided legions.
I wouldnt mind a complete Emperors Children book, but I dont think thats realistic, and Id much rather see all 4 legions get their share then that GW only makes Khorne and Nurgle as normal...
Above written sounds really neat in my book


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Lost and the Damned, Codex legions and Vanilla CSMs maybe?


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

The Sullen One said:


> Hate to say this but the obligatory build you mention isn't that good. A decent Tau army will go through it like a knife through butter.


It was more of an example than anything else. Chaos is not nearly diverse as it used to be - which is a shame. However, like you said on your other point, we are unlikely to have a return to that.

I don't mean to sound like a child, but it isn't fair. Building a fluffy army that actually had meaning was my favorite concept. Now it is just "Chaos." It sucks for everyone that that happened to, just not Chaos.

GW is forgetting about their veteran players.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

I was kind of let down when it first came out, especially when the older space marine codex was out and they had gotten veteran abilities, while taking away CSM veteran abilities.

Here is a quote from the old dex:

"Ten thousand years of warfare has honed the skills of the Chaos Space Marines just as their service to Chaos has augmented their powers. No conventional Space Marine has the depth or breadth of experience that the Traitor Marines have built up and consequently there are few war skills that at least some of them have not mastered."

In this codex, it translates to " 10000 years of battle has allowed the Chaos Space Marines to find a way of carrying a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CCW AT THE SAME TIME!"

If Obliterators went back to Elite (without the 0-1), that might be too powerful. I would prefer just getting actual daemons back so I could do something with all the Nurgling bases I bought but can't use for anything other than decoration.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

darklove said:


> My sources told me that it is not out of the question that at least 3 codices will be produced for CSM, 2 dedicated to specific Legions and the 3rd for CSM in general (like the Ultramarines being the generic SM codex).


That scares the Piss out of me. Knowing GW track Record they will make World Eaters one and Death Guard the other. Both (this includes EC/TS) are to abrumpt to be super specialise. If any of the 3 Dexes is Mono God will seriously put the other Players God Specififc out the door. I hope one is Legions, another is Book of Chaos (WE/TS/EC/DG), then a better Chaos Daemons. Otherwise some poor God Specific army gets a slap in the face.


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