# Juggernauts- sitting ducks?



## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

I play a lot of Khorne with my WoC, and I like me some Juggernaut rider. So far, using them with an Exalted Hero in a unit of Knights has been fine, but I've not had to face too much artillery.

The problem as I see it is that the Jugger is a Monstrous Beast, making the model as a whole Monstrous Cavalry. Since there aren't any other Monstrous Cavalry models available to a WoC player, that leaves you in mortal peril from cannons, and without a 'Look Out Sir' against normal shooting, etc. I'd love to try one with some Dragon Ogres, but AFAIK since they are unridden Monstrous Beasts, the unit type is not the same and we have the same problem.

So, short of taking the Crimson Armour of Dargan and loudly pointing out how that great cannon's only going to cause one wound, is there any other way to field a Juggernaut that I'm missing?


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Nope. I was quite upset when I realized that characters on Juggs had no Look Out Sir in 8th edition, WOC armies. BTW If one runs bloodcrushers in a daemons of chaos army, then a herald of khorne on a jugg is an option (pretty expensive unit). I'd love to see a new WoC army book with MoK chaos warriors on juggs as a special or rare option (like bloodletters on juggs in DoC), or, better yet, a special rule that an exalted or chaos lord on a Jugg counts as the normal cav troop type for purposes of the Look Out Sir in a WoC army. 

Also, note that template attacks hitting the character on the jugg will also not allow for a look out sir, so any direct hits by stone throwers, grudges, and warp-lightning cannons (if boosted S) will likely cook the exalted, absent a good ward save or the crimson armour. Because MoTz gives a +1 ward save and allows for a disc (flying and M10) and a chaos steed (barded) gives a good armour save, and both of those options allow for a look out sir with normal cav, those two options are now viewed as superior because both "mounts" count a normal cavalry and allow the character to get an initial look out sir when in a cav unit (starting out with a unit of marauder horsemen with MoS or chaos knights). 

One popular set-up is a MoTz chaos lord on a disc with crimson armour and a 4+ ward save (becomes a 3+ ward save). Often the lord has blood-curdling roar (shooting attack that causes 2D6 S1 hits on targetted unit but no AS) to wound high AS units like steam tanks and knights. That set up provides a good enough ward save that, when combined with the crimson armour, allows the lord to fly around as an uber war machine hunter and character/monster killer. In fact, if one can run trolls as core with throgg, then a chaos lord on disc will fit within that unit initially (distributed as shooting/BS shooting attacks are first allocated to the trolls that get a regen save and with two regens in a phase get a roll on the eye of the gods table for a "gift"). It won't get a look out sir, but will get some protection from magic missles, some direct damage spells and some shooting and boost the troll unit's leadership initially.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Re reading the rules - you only apply the "Same type" when he is not apart of the unit but 3 inches away. The actual look out sir doesnt seem to have that restriction which would make sense as in the character bit it says "The character receives a greater degree of protection" when he is apart of the unit.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

It is on BRB p. 99. "If a character is hit by such an attack ["unusual shooting attacs"' "such as cannons, stone throwers, breath weapons and so on"], and he is in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models (excluding the champion, if there is one) and he is of the same troop type as the unit, then his controlling player is permitted to make a 'Look Out Sir!' roll to save him from harm." This requires that the character be of the same troop type. 

If it were ordinary shooting or distributed as ordinary shooting, then the section above that I quoted on page 99 would apply and the controlling player would allocate the hits to the models in the unit with one hit for each model until all models have been hit and then begin to allocate additional hits. IF there were five or more rank-and-file models of the same troop type as the character, then the character cannot be hit by ordinary shooting or distributed as shooting attacks. However, if there are less than five rank-and-file models or the character is of a different troop type, then the character may be hit but the controlling player gets to allocate the hits spreading them evenly so that all models are hit before allocating a second hit to any model. Most agree that the controlling player refers to the controlling player controlling the models, not the phase, and, thus, this would allow BS shooting and distributed as shooting attacks to be spread out across the unit so as to avoid hitting the character if there are more models than hits and limits the hits on the character otherwise. Also, this rule would allow a character to volunteer to take a shooting hit first when the unit is small (especially if there is a champion or other character) that one would like to save and the number of hits is less than the number of models. For example, in the last turn of a game in a tournament, a player with a unit composed of only one Temple Guard model and a Slann (with a ward save and five wounds left on the Slann due to Lore of Life regrowth) deliberately allocated the one hit from a bolt thrower to the Slann in order to save the last Temple Guard model from being killed. Because of the all or nothing rule for VPs, keeping that one model alive from a TG unit was enough to deny the opponent the VPs for the TG unit (a large number of points) and win the game by a narrow margin.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Yep, that's pretty much how I figured it. I've no real problem taking a few normal missile hits on a Jugger, that +3 save and T5 on the rider makes it fairly low-risk. I suppose the Armour of Dargan's still pretty much the only defense (other than a wall) for cannons. Bah.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

The T5 doesn't help you- you allocate after rolling to wound, so the opponent wounds against majority toughness, then you allocate the wounds as you see fit...


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> The T5 doesn't help you- you allocate after rolling to wound, so the opponent wounds against majority toughness, then you allocate the wounds as you see fit...


Ah, nuts. I'll just have to take comfort in the save, then. Seems a bit of an oversight in the WoC list to have nowhere 'safe' to put the things, but hey, what else is new?


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

leave him on his own call him suicide steve and set him on his way


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

No. You do not roll to wound first and then allocate wounds. That would make no sense. It is very clear on page 99 of the BRB. You allocate hits to models and then roll to wound each model. I think Tim/Steve you are confusing the rules for warmachines in close combat (where the majority of the unit's T is used) with shooting rules. 

It is the same for templates, you decide what is hit and then apply the hits and roll to wound specific to what is hit. On a monstrous mount, both the character and the mount are hit by the template if he template hits the model and the roll to wound is separate for both the character and the mount. Where there are two S levels of hits (like the center of the stone thrower template) and the higher level is partially in play, then you randomize to determine whether the character or the mount is hit by the higher S hit and the other is hit by the lower S hit.


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

somewhat off topic.
Unless you're creating a list vs. a specific army, I'd say take him.
Every army has their 'Achilles heel'. However, not every army can shoot this guy down. Even more so, warmachines do miss.
If this Juggernaut mad-man (steve) gets into combat, it's a world of hurt.
If he gets shot at, well, your blocks of Warriors and Chosen are safe.

The armor you mentioned is great, the charmed shield could be handy. But less effective in the long run.


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## The rabid simian (Feb 18, 2009)

Trolls being MI and having regen can catch cannon balls fairly well too.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

The rabid simian said:


> Trolls being MI and having regen can catch cannon balls fairly well too.


Oh yes, certainly. Likewise, against a Skaven gunline Dragon Ogres are great, since they just absorb the Warp Lightning (and get Frenzy!). The problem I have is more that I'm worried there's no unit a Jugger can go in and not get hit by cannonballs.

I suppose I could hide him behind some Trolls


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