# Heavy Bolters



## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

WHAT THE WARP?!

Exhibit A.

"Sergeant Harker is a giant of a man, even by Catachan standards, his large frame covered with slabs of muscle and sinew. His strength is such that he carries his Heavy Bolter, "Payback," as easily as a normal man might carry a rifle, without even breaking a sweat." (Imperial Guard Codex 5th ed, 09)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harker#.VBMMcvmSyCY

Exhibit B.

"In battle, Corax favoured a Heavy Bolter for long-range killing, which he hefted and aimed as easily as an ordinary man would lift a battle rifle;." (Raven's Flight, 2010)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Corax#Wargear


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Might want to make a point. It's kind of how these things work. Raise question, provide evidence, answer given. At the minute, all you've done is provide evidence outside of any context whatsoever.

If you're talking in regards to the how the weapons are similar, Harker is an exceptional individual. 

Also, carrying, and aiming accurately are two different things. I'd also have to double check the context of "favouring" a heavy bolter for long range killing, as the only time he took the Heavy Bolter was following the dropsite massacre, and one of his talons was broken (IIRC) by Curze. 

Also, ignore the Lexicanum - it's a pretty poor resource.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

The wording in both works are almost the exact same and were published within one year of each other; the similarity made me suspicious. And I've double checked the original sources, so in this case, lexicanum is perfectly fine for me to quote.

Don't spend time lecturing me. I would much rather prefer a discussion about fluff descrepancies that makes little sense. Whether Harker spray-n-pray his HB is pure speculation on your part - it doesn't say, so as you said - pay attention to the source.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ask a question then.

"What the warp?" is not only grammatical nonsense, it is an exclamation expressed in the matter of question to which there can be no actual answer. If you wish to discuss something, please do something.

Kind regards, the english language.

"Kind regards"

Exhibit A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feces

Exhibit B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidisestablishmentarianism

Ta.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

A heavy bolter to a primarch would be like an SMG to a normal Joe, never mind a battle rifle. 

Catachans are huge as humans go. I think way back when they introduced the various different IG units it actually mentioned something about the Catachan affinity with Ogryns having to do with the fact they were so similar. Then you have Harker. A giant amongst giants. He might not be as mobile with it as a primarch, but it's similar to the big dude in a modern day rifle squad getting lumped with the GPMG(m240 for our US members). After a while he usually becomes fairly proficient at throwing that thing around.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Several possible answers.

1. The codices are known to be, at least partially, propaganda. It could be Harker's entry is a hyperbole to awe the masses.

2. Not all rifles are equally heavy...nor are all marks of heavy bolters the same. 

3. The authors aren't always so creative. Just take it as an out of universe oops.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

In Gaunt's Ghosts (in Necropolis) Bragg fires an autocannon single handedly. AFAIK an autocannon is a similar size to a heavy bolter so maybe huge IG soldiers can fire heavy weapons single handedly.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Dan Abnett tends to do exactly what he likes with the lore - after all, he has already recreated Sharpe, the Jedi and Pearl Harbour in his novels.

Autocannons are a funny one - namely because the idea that a tank supported autocannon chassis (i.e, the Predator's main gun, or a Salamander's) is the same one as carried en masse by infantry regiments is kind of strange, especially when that Predator Autocannon is used to score Tank Kills against rival Predators (bear in mind that Rhino's presented in fluff are tougher than represented in game - the old movie marines Dex had them tougher than Predators, for example, and the standard Boltgun was a Strength 6 AP4 weapon, IIRC). 

There's a discrepancy there as well.

In my headcanon, I like to see autocannons as being a catch-all term for any large calibre weapon firing explosive shells at a reasonably high Rate of Fire, similar to a Bofors 40mm, but in the case of something like a Predator, maybe slotting all the way up to a 105mm type. 

Meanwhile, a Heavy Bolter is firing 25mm shells - something more along the lines of a Bushmaster like on the Bradley.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Several possible answers.
> 
> 1. The codices are known to be, at least partially, propaganda. It could be Harker's entry is a hyperbole to awe the masses.
> 
> ...


To be fair the recoil on the heavy bolter would be minimal. Since bolt rounds contain only enough propellant to ensure the round leaves the barrel.

I'm not sure how much powder a 25MM would need to reliably leave the barrel but it probably would have to be much.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> To be fair the recoil on the heavy bolter would be minimal. Since bolt rounds contain only enough propellant to ensure the round leaves the barrel.
> 
> I'm not sure how much powder a 25MM would need to reliably leave the barrel but it probably would have to be much.


Yeah multiple fluff says that a SM bolter would break a normal man's arm.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Yeah multiple fluff says that a SM bolter would break a normal man's arm.


Which ones again?

I know in _The Purging of Kadillus_, we have a Space Marine giving a guardsman his bolt pistol, and the guardsman mentions the pistol has the kick of an auto-rifle.

Boltguns and boltpistols use the same ammo, right? So kick should be roughly the same.

In _The Emperor's Gift_, a female Inquisitor is given an Astartes boltgun...with the only modification of it being some suspensors to hold its weight. No mention of any recoiling nullifying effects of the suspensors nor of any augmetic, bionic, or other physical enhancement to the female inquisitor.

In the _Deathwatch Corerulebook_, suspensors are again mentioned as a weight canceling device, "Many [devastator marines] carry suspensors, small devices attached to the heavy weapon that utilise a miniature anti-grav generator to provide sufficient lift to offset the weight of the weapon."

The specific entry describing suspensors later in the book says they make weapons easier to use by off-setting their weight.

Not to derail too much, but I think a human could (if they could heft a bolgun) use the boltgun.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I know this is a conversion but here's a nice model of an IG trooper carrying an autocannon:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/22098-Dak the Heavy, front.html


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> Which ones again?
> 
> I know in _The Purging of Kadillus_, we have a Space Marine giving a guardsman his bolt pistol, and the guardsman mentions the pistol has the kick of an auto-rifle.
> 
> ...


Rogue Trader Rulebook, pg. 122, 2009.
Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, pg 173
Imperial Guard 6th ed the one before they got rid of them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Rogue Trader Rulebook, pg. 122, 2009.


I can't find anything mentioning it breaking a man's arm. Closest thing I see is on the earlier page that says, "While most models are designed for the superhuman Space Marines, some are specially crafted with smaller grips and lighter construction for normal humans."



locustgate said:


> Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, pg 173


This one does indeed state that potentially a person could dislocate their shoulder if they fired a Space Marine boltgun. 

I guess it's another divergence of fluff. Your mileage may vary, I suppose.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

As much as I love it, nothing in RT can be seen as canon any more, I don't think. In it Leman Russ was an IG commander, the Rainbow Warriors and Space Sharks were first founding chapters while the smurfs were second founding IIRC, you could give your SMs shuriken catapults, the Slann were a playable race and SMs were kept in stasis between missions because they were so psychopathic. 

Lets remember that IG can be issued bolt guns as well, which are obviously of smaller calibre than a SM version. The same could be true of heavy bolters.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

A better thread title might help to draw in more responses.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Automatic Weapons can be accurate when shooting single shots. Obviously not pressing the trigger and 50 head shots. Both are pretty strong individuals as well. Its not too farfetched. 

Next time could you put a better title though? I almost didn't even look at this thread. Had no idea what it was. Almost looked like a spam thread. Thanks dude.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

hailene said:


> Which ones again?
> 
> I know in _The Purging of Kadillus_, we have a Space Marine giving a guardsman his bolt pistol, and the guardsman mentions the pistol has the kick of an auto-rifle.
> 
> ...


I actually have to differ. The caliber of the round is the same for the bolt pistol and boltgun. However the length of the round differs. The bullet for the bolt pistol has a smaller charge and size, which is why it has a shorter range, even when accounting for its gyrojet.

Its like saying a 9mm rifle round and a 9mm pistol round are the same, the calibler is the same but not the brass shell with the ignition charge.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

OP, in future, two things. 

This thread title is garbage, and you seem to have left it completely ambiguous as to the point you are trying to make, if at all. 

As Vaz said, raise a point and ask a question, don't post something that makes sense to you but forces everyone else to try and join the dots. It's irritating and even rude. 

I mean, I don't even know what the fuck to rename this thread to generate actual search results. 

Do better next time, please.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> I know this is a conversion but here's a nice model of an IG trooper carrying an autocannon:
> 
> http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/22098-Dak the Heavy, front.html


Hah. The Autocannon was a one-man carry in Necromunda too (and, coincidentally, far and away the best heavy weapon in the game). 



> As much as I love it, nothing in RT can be seen as canon any more, I don't think. In it Leman Russ was an IG commander, the Rainbow Warriors and Space Sharks were first founding chapters while the smurfs were second founding IIRC


"Imperial Commander" was just a broad title in the Rogue Trader era that covered anyone commanding Imperial troops. He was still listed as a Primarch in other places too.

But you're right in that pretty much everything from Rogue Trader is more or less non-canon. "Modern 40K" starts with 2nd Edition, because that's when Games Workshop finally collected the fluff into a single coherent storyline. Obviously it has been altered and added to (Dark Eldar being invented out of thin air for example), but the major storyline elements were hammered out in "final form". Horus Heresy 10,000 years ago. Emprah on the Throne. Traitors in the Eye of Terror. Imperium a giant xenophobic bureaucracy. Ecclesiarchy as the space church. etc.

The only piece of fluff that survived RT more or less intact was Priestley's "Origins of the Legiones Astartes", and I joke that it's the "oldest piece of 40K fluff". Should tell you the correct answer on female Space Marines.  In 25 years, the only piece of fluff that has survived unscathed is "No Girls Allowed".


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The skepticism of the weapons seems fair. For fluff sake I think its fair to say that IG use those weapons usually in bi-pod or tri-pod format on the ground. I'm trying to think of a scenario where that wouldn't be true even about our light machine guns these days.


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## Nick1080 (Oct 8, 2010)

The way I rationalise it in my head is that 'mortal' scale bolt weapons share the same 'bullet' with SM weapons (albeit probably of a lesser quality) but that the SM versions have a bigger cartridge case with more propellant and therefore greater muzzle velocity and recoil (which the SMs can easily handle). 

SM weapons are larger and tougher than mortal weapons, both to accommodate the marine's larger size and stop them blowing up from the greater barrel pressures.

The greater muzzle velocity of SM weapons is also more suitable for the close range actions in which they excel - cancelling out the disadvantage of bolt weapon's projectiles needing to accelerate after leaving the barrel - as an aside for ancients like me, was it necromunda or its proto-game Confrontation (the WD published ruleset, not the game by that other company) that had bolt weapons being inaccurate at very short (0-4"?) ranges to reflect this?

In a more detailed game IG bolters, SM bolters and vehicle mounted bolters would all have different profiles, although I guess this is kind of reflected in 7th by vehicles having relentless and therefore getting more shots from bolters and HBs whilst moving.

/long-winded ramble


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

I've always considered the SM bolters to be hand fired weapons, with IG/Inquisitor bolters being shoulder fired guns. Think using a pistol-grip shotgun .vs a normal stocked shotgun. If you use a shotgun wrong you can dislocate your shoulder and they aren't THAT powerful.

This being said there are currently, IRL, different versions of the same nominal calibers, for example a 20mm. There are some vehicle mounted guns which use the 20x82mm Mauser round and the 20x110mm Hispanio round (both of which are available in shoulder fired sniper rifles) and the newly produced 20x42mm PAW for shoulder guns. A 20mm anti-personell cannon. It is a very sweet little gun. So the idea behind a SM bolter and an IG bolter isn't too far fetched I suppose.

I do think the term "autocannon" is a little bit of a mish mash. The current IRL definition is a gun that fires rapidly and is bigger than a machinegun. This leaves quite a lot of play in the definition from around .50cal to guns of around 120mm that start requiring individual rounds to be loaded manually. With the old/new technology of the Imperium I'd always thought of the IG autocannons as similar to a WWI QF 1 pounder "Pom Pom" firing black powder explosive rounds while the SM's vehicle gun is like the M230 30mm cannon from the Apache helicopter shooting High-Explosive Incindiary rounds . I wouldn't want to be shot with either. 

What I've never understood is the SM's reluctance to use autocannond as a heavy weapon. I suppose a Heavy Bolter is a better anti infantry gun, while the Missile Launcher is a better anti vehicle gun but I still think it would 1) make for kickass models 2) be a better jack of all trades.

KBK


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Kayback said:


> I do think the term "autocannon" is a little bit of a mish mash. The current IRL definition is a gun that fires rapidly and is bigger than a machinegun. This leaves quite a lot of play in the definition from around .50cal to guns of around 120mm that start requiring individual rounds to be loaded manually. With the old/new technology of the Imperium I'd always thought of the IG autocannons as similar to a WWI QF 1 pounder "Pom Pom" firing black powder explosive rounds while the SM's vehicle gun is like the M230 30mm cannon from the Apache helicopter shooting High-Explosive Incindiary rounds . I wouldn't want to be shot with either.


I think you might also be leaving out the heavy stubber, which is much more like a .50 cal than a heavy bolter or an autocannon.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It makes you wonder why he wasn't inducted into a Chapter as a youth.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

In Graham McNeill’s Warriors of Ultramar A woman called Joaniel is given a ceremonial Bolter as a recognition on something she did (I can’t remember what, cause I haven’t read it in 2 years) in the tyranid invasion of tarsis ultra, she uses it as a last ditch effort to buy her patients more time to evacuate the building.

Here is a pic of the text for proof



i have scribbled out the unimportant bits 











yes this was taken with snapchat


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

TechPr1est said:


> In Graham McNeill’s


ADB at least had his inquisitor wield a bolter only thanks to gravitating magnets.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

yeah its so confusing, isnt a sister hospitaller like a 40k version of a modern day nurse? 

yet an inquistor needs magnets


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

Kreuger said:


> I think you might also be leaving out the heavy stubber, which is much more like a .50 cal than a heavy bolter or an autocannon.


Yeah, that's why I started my list post .50cal. The cannon part of "autocannon" suggest it fires explosive rounds. 

Still, I'm surprised the SM's don't use autocannons.

KBK


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Kayback said:


> Still, I'm surprised the SM's don't use autocannons.


This is a bit of guesswork on my part, but maybe even Space Marines have difficulties firing an autocannon from the shoulder?

Heavy bolters utilize gyrojet technology to lessen the recoil. Missile launchers, las cannons, and plasma cannons are all one shot weapons; recoil is not much of an issue.

Auto-cannons combine high rate of fire and recoil.

They had to pack the reaper auto-cannon on terminators after all (though that's a double barreled auto-cannon).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> ADB at least had his inquisitor wield a bolter only thanks to gravitating magnets.


Bolts are supposed to be gyrojet rounds. Meaning they only need enough charge to leave the barrel before the rocket takes over.

Chances are they wouldn't require any more powder than a 10 gauge shotgun. Which a normal human wouldn't have any problem handling.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Kayback said:


> Yeah, that's why I started my list post .50cal. The cannon part of "autocannon" suggest it fires explosive rounds.
> 
> Still, I'm surprised the SM's don't use autocannons.
> 
> KBK


A cannon can be anything that uses a contained explosion to launch a projectile; the use of the word doesn't necessarily indicate projectile type. Also, Marines do use autoconnons. Big ones, typically mounted on tanks. 

As far as why they wouldn't use man-portable infantry weapons, I would assume the same reason it would be silly to use a .50 as a squad automatic weapon: too damn big, too damn clunky and too damn heavy to carry enough rounds to be worth the effort.



Reaper45 said:


> Bolts are supposed to be gyrojet rounds. Meaning they only need enough charge to leave the barrel before the rocket takes over.
> 
> Chances are they wouldn't require any more powder than a 10 gauge shotgun. Which a normal human wouldn't have any problem handling.


Sure they wouldn't, so long as it weighed a ton, they only had to carry a mag or two and they weren't really all that fucked about actually having to hit anything with it if they had to fire more than once every second or two. A closer comparison would probably be an M203 (little bigger than either, but a bit more similar as far as mass would go), one with a really big magazine shoved on the bottom of it, that just happened to fire in burst and (presumably) fully automatic.

EDIT: Scratch that, apparently the M203 is a 40mm launcher. Derp.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Bolts are supposed to be gyrojet rounds. Meaning they only need enough charge to leave the barrel before the rocket takes over.
> 
> Chances are they wouldn't require any more powder than a 10 gauge shotgun. Which a normal human wouldn't have any problem handling.


?

UA humans cant carry bolters due to their weight.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> ?
> 
> UA humans cant carry bolters due to their weight.


And what weight is that exactly? Last I checked there was no set weight for an astartes bolter. All we know is the caliber.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> And what weight is that exactly? Last I checked there was no set weight for an astartes bolter. All we know is the caliber.


We're told in _The Emperor's Gift_ an Inquisitor (an unaugmented human) is only able to able to use an Astartes bolter because of weight suspensors carrying most of the weight.

Septimus in _Void Stalker_ is able to hand Talos his bolter and powersword, albeit two-handed for each.

The Deatchwatch core Rulebook gives an 18 kilogram weight for a bolter (roughly 40 pounds). This is without bolt rounds. The precise weight of a bolt round is not listed in the book, but I'd hazard in the ball park of heavy.

A fully loaded bolter is probably somewhere around 60 pounds, more with larger magazines. A general guesstimate, of course.

Hardly something you'd want to be walking around and using. Carrying a few extra magazines is probably approaching a full combat load.


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

gen.ahab said:


> A cannon can be anything that uses a contained explosion to launch a projectile; the use of the word doesn't necessarily indicate projectile type.


True, depending on how far back into antiquity you want to go. Typically nowadays they are used to differentiate between heavy machine guns (the .50 BMG M2 and the DShK 1938) and weapons firing explosive projectiles (25mm M242 Bushmaster et al). While its not always the case (AP and Sabot rounds) a good guideline is cannon = explosive rounds. 




> Also, Marines do use autoconnons. Big ones, typically mounted on tanks.
> 
> As far as why they wouldn't use man-portable infantry weapons, I would assume the same reason it would be silly to use a .50 as a squad automatic weapon: too damn big, too damn clunky and too damn heavy to carry enough rounds to be worth the effort.


 I get what you're saying here, but Marines hand fire their bolters, and shoulder fire their heavy bolters. I agree and understand assault cannons are only used by Terminators, but from the fluff they are difficult to maintain and relatively few of them are around while the autocannon is all over the place. I agree the Reaper is a good step between the autocannon and assault cannon, but one wonders why it isn't used more often. I do think a Terminator could use an autocannon effectively and a heavy weapon Tactical Marine could as well, given things like the suspensors to help IG/Inquisitors with the bolters.





> Sure they wouldn't, so long as it weighed a ton, they only had to carry a mag or two


I do think there is a large difference between a "realistic" combat load for a Marine and what's modeled on a model. I'd honestly expect a Marine to be festooned with pouches and weapons but it would spoil the clean lines of the models. 

On a side note, and this goes back to the same realm as arguing the power to weight ratio of an X-wing, there isn't any proof the Bolter operates like a Gyrojet round. All it says is it is a mass reactive rocket powered round. The Gyrojet's main failing was, as someone pointed out, the fact acceleration happened slowly when the rocket engine ignites. The bolter may very well kick the bolt out at a high muzzle velocity and use the rocket motor to sustain the velocity downrange. There is possible fluff which counteracts this, the reference to a possible Necromunda close range accuracy penalty, but that penalty should really cover all the ranges. I expect the bolter is closer to an RPG-7 in function. The kicker charge is massive and the acceleration is almost as instant as a rifle round.

I do think we're possibly expending too many braincells thinking about this.

KBK


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you're wondering over certain weapon types;

The Legiones Astartes used both rotor-cannon, and autocannon on heavy support squads. The rotorcannon is essentially your minigun of today, probably nearer to the 7.62, rather than the 30mm you see on things like Dreadnought or Tank mounted assault cannons.

it's not clear why they stopped using the Autocannon, but the Rotor Cannon, as a weapon against other Astartes, was fairly useless.

In regards to the bolter ammunition itself, I can't be bothered to dig out a quote from an official source, but this is on the wikia; 

"As well as the rocket propellant, a tiny amount of conventional charge is also utilised. This charge is just strong enough to force the bolt out of the barrel and ignite the bolt's propellant."


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

Vaz said:


> just strong enough to force the bolt out of the barrel


Huh, never noticed that bit. Thanks.


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