# Fluff changes in Warhammer 40k



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Since Game work shop is a traded company. How much of the fluff changes are because of the investors? I mean it seems like every time a new edition comes out they change the fluff. Is it because to increase sells ? 

Personal if they re-introduce the primarchs that might increase sells for both the literature and table top.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Difficult to say. I wouldn't think this is the case, Gw seem to value being in control of their IP.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

I doubt it. It is most likely to involve more of the new material into the universe as not to make it feel tacked on.

If they were to use fluff to increase sales then the fluff would be more episodic, thats what BL is for.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think the fluff changes because of investors.

The biggest changes I've seen in the half dozen years or so that I've invested in the novels and Forgeworld books (I don't play the game, I'm just interested in the setting and the stories told in it) have dealt with new models and units being released - for the sake of better sales, obviously.

How has that affected fluff? Well, all those previously unseen/unknown assets and units - Dreadknights, Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolf cavalry, Centurions, various flyers, etc. - all require new background material. Thus, while the game's background material has not changed _that_ significantly in the last three editions, no less than three of the original Chapters (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves) would be fundamentally different to a gamer who got his start in the 90s.

Games Workshop seems to be smart about it, though. I'm sure they've thought about the longevity of the average gamer, and I would assume this plays a role on how often they release new Codices - and thus new models for each army. I imagine the shock factor of the Centurions is lessened given that they arrived a full five years after the last Codex had been published. For a guy like me, though, who is only in it for the stories, it's always going to be jarring to see something so obviously new. The calendar has always been at 999.M41, after all, and it gets tiring to read of _yet another_ "really rare" thing that is nonetheless given the spotlight and is thus seen se often in gaming events, etc. :wink:


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Fluff does not change because of investors. If it did, the fluff would be better.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> Fluff does not change because of investors. If it did, the fluff would be better.


Yeaaaah...no...but there is no turning you.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Yeaaaah...no...but there is no turning you.


What is that supposed to mean?


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Games Workshop does not value the sanctity of the fluff the way some players do.

Very little in the game hasn't changed at some point, because all GW looks at it as, is a background for their miniatures game. The nitty gritty of the details are unimportant. One only needs to look at the subtext behind what you hear a lot of GW writers/employees say. 

"Everything is canon". Translation: "We're not going to bother to edit this shit. We're barely _reading it_ before it goes to the publishers. It gets superficially copyedited* and then sent to the printers. You're going to buy it anyway, why waste the time and effort?"

"I'm not beholden to the vision of any other writer, and they are not beholden to my vision" Translation: "Do you think I actually read half the shit these other guys are putting out? I'm too busy writing my fourth novel this year."

"We have timeline of the order in which the primarchs were discovered, here it is:" Translation: "Haha, you're fucking stupid. I just made that shit up five minutes ago after seeing your question."


The reality is, you have to remember that 40K is written the way they play it at Games Workshop, and according to their priorities. It's a fair bet many of them, even (or especially) the long tenured guys, don't really give too much concern to the fluff. It's a cartoon framework for their toy soldiers game. Big Guys in Big Armor with Bug Guns fighting the Universe Full of Baddies. It changes as the wind blows. Did you know the Black Templars are a Codex Chapter? Bet you didn't. But they're listed in the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines as an example of a Codex Chapter, lol. At some point, somebody said "What if we take the idea of the Crusades, and make some Space Marines out of that?" "That would be sweet! What should we call them?" "Well, I saw these dudes in the Ultramarines Codex named the Black Templars, and Templars are kinda like crusading knights or something right?" "I think so. Let's do it."



*Unless it's Forgeworld, apparently. Their books are rife with grammar errors and shitty sentence/paragraph structure. IA8 for the hilarity. Cordite cordite cordite while corditing! Good fucking lord, in addition to using the word like ten times in what is effectively a 15 page story, cordite hasn't been produced in over two decades, let alone used in small arms ammunition as a propellant. Stop reading bad detective novels for inspiration.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> *Unless it's Forgeworld, apparently. Their books are rife with grammar errors and shitty sentence/paragraph structure. IA8 for the hilarity. Cordite cordite cordite while corditing! Good fucking lord, in addition to using the word like ten times in what is effectively a 15 page story, cordite hasn't been produced in over two decades, let alone used in small arms ammunition as a propellant. Stop reading bad detective novels for inspiration.


Ironically I think FW are producing the best fluff these days in terms of story telling (with the exception of Taros). Their work tends to be a bit more detailed and consistent than GW's. You mention FW liking to use the word "Cordite", have a look through the SW dex and see how many things have the word "wolf" in them: Space _Wolf Wolf _Guard riding giant _wolves_ called Thunder _Wolves_, with _Wolf _Talismans armed with the mark of the _Wulf_en.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> stuff.


You are almost certainly right. Which is why GW is probably in the dire straights they are now.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Jacobite said:


> Ironically I think FW are producing the best fluff these days in terms of story telling (with the exception of Taros). Their work tends to be a bit more detailed and consistent than GW's. You mention FW liking to use the word "Cordite", have a look through the SW dex and see how many things have the word "wolf" in them: Space _Wolf Wolf _Guard riding giant _wolves_ called Thunder _Wolves_, with _Wolf _Talismans armed with the mark of the _Wulf_en.


The Space Wolf codex is awful. Wolfy wolf wolf wolf. But I feel like that's intentional, even if ridiculously stupid.

My problem with the FW is stuff is that a lof of the time it is trying to be too smart sounding, and ends up being really silly. Like the cordite thing. "Ooooh the smell of cordite. Isn't that evocative?"  The other part is they put too much detail in their stories. Sounds like a weird thing to call bad? The problem is so many of their campaigns take place in a vacuum, with no thought given to the greater picture of the battlespace. I mean, you either write a war, or you don't. Gnome sayin? But if you do, you gotta plot the whole thing out. If the Elysians can land a task force on the planet with a FARP and everything, and none of the Orks in space noticed or could do anything about it, then why didn't they just blast the Gargant from orbit? I mean, it wasn't like they had some sophisticated plan. Destroy the gargant, kill the chief mek boy. No concern about civilians, or infrastructure. Nothing to capture or get back. Apparently there wasn't even some kind of shielding on the gargant. Who's planning this shit show? No wonder everybody died. :crazy:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Jacobite said:


> Ironically I think FW are producing the best fluff these days in terms of story telling (with the exception of Taros). Their work tends to be a bit more detailed and consistent than GW's. You mention FW liking to use the word "Cordite", have a look through the SW dex and see how many things have the word "wolf" in them: Space _Wolf Wolf _Guard riding giant _wolves_ called Thunder _Wolves_, with _Wolf _Talismans armed with the mark of the _Wulf_en.


What about Blood Angels? Or Louen Leoncoeur. Canis Wolfborn/Wolfy McWolfington, or Nick Kyme's Fireyfireymarines of fireydeath by burning? Yup.

I've got to say I liked Taros' fluff; however the pacing and sense of scale was completely lost; a multispectrum desert campaign involving titans, superheavy artillery, Veteran Elysian Troop assaults on integral superstructure instructed not to damage it, kroot raids on armoured convoys (and winning), Air Superiority Wars, Eversor Assassins, suicide raids by Stormtroopers, internal politics (this is where we first see Hector Rex, in a passing mention, who later pops up in IA4 again in a side mention and then obviously takes a Starring role in Vraks), constant orbital supplies for water, concentration camps... it's all there.

Unfortunately, it played along at such a speed that it was hard to actually confirm.

In addition to the Hector Rex funfact, I believe one of the Ordo Xenos inquisitors retinue in IA4 was also in IA3; Autosavant Wassily, if my memory serves; apparently a promotion for fucking up the numbers during his calculations. Or something like.

Worst writing in an IA book goes to IA11; Mymeara. While the premise was pretty awesome, the quality of the writing was terrible. "And lo, the Eldar Titans came, and mass rapage was brought, entire companies were killed in the blink of an eye. And then the worst thing in the world happened, the Titans blew up about a half dozen unmanned coal trucks". I shit you not.

I have since found out that Talima Fox was the tealady who during the staff break sat herself down at Alan Bligh's desk, and began to sniff the keyboard so that she could smell the scent of his fingers one last time after the previous years christmas party they both got too drunk, but she never forgot. However, Alan must have left something on his desk, and saw her there sniffing the keys, and accidentally pressing them leaving random gibberish on the screen. He was that pissed off that he punched her so hard that as she fell down, knocked the fuck out, she pressed the "send to printers" button.

And because we know the printers are so fucking retarded that they'll print anything (it's how Graham McNeil and Nick Kyme get published after all), that is the story of how Mymeara came to be.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

GabrialSagan said:


> You are almost certainly right. Which is why GW is probably in the dire straights they are now.


Yes GW's reduced profits and drop in share price are soley to with the fluff of their games. In fact if they were to hire you as head writer and allowed you to retcon everything over night then all would be well again. We would enter into a new golden age of 40k...



Veteran Sergeant said:


> Wolves and FW


Oh it's completely intentional. It was a codex aimed at 13 year olds and herp a derp's in my opinion. How else do you explain the idea of drunk Blood Claws stealing Thunderhawks to go joy riding. I loathe it with a passion. 



Vaz said:


> Blood, lions and fire
> 
> Taros:
> 
> Printers


Very true, it's not like the SW's have a monopoly on authors having a hard on for a single related word.

Taros as a whole had a great set up but it really died for me when you have the entire Imperial battleforce landing half a fucking planet away and then having to footslog to the water processing facility while half of their force airdrops in. It makes the actions in IA:8 seem a like a master stroke of tactical brilliance. It just seemed that from the first minute the IG forces landed the authors were setting them up to fail, that there was no way they could win. Nice of you to point out about Rex, I hadn't picked up on him being in it. It is good how FW seems to like reusing certain characters and having them progress across books. 

I haven't read IA:11 it's not really got anything in it that interests me. After GW turned SW's into WOLVES FUCK YEA! they don't do much for me, never been a huge Eldar fan and while Cadians are cool there are other more interesting regiments out there for me.

Yet another example of GW not having a central person who has some balls and a brain who checks shit before it goes to the printers to make sure it's not complete tripe.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Jacobite, Veteran Sergeant:

I wish that the Forum Gods would allow me to rep you both for your posts. *Veteran Sergeant*, your comment regarding _whole campaigns_ was absolutely spot on. I imagine one half of the reason why neither ForgeWorld nor many Black Library authors take that approach is because it's too daunting a task. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume that the other half of that comes down to their personal desire to focus more on ground battles and tanks - a sentiment expressed in one of the first Imperial Armour books.

(I'll try to get the quote in question later on today)


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Cheers Phoebus. I suppose it comes down to useable minis, after all the books are there to sell miniatures and sadly epic and BFG are not supported anymore, that said I know in the first edition of IA3: Taros they attempted to include some rules for BFG. Not sure if they are kept in the new edition though. 

On the whole (and this is a generalisation) I think FW does a great job on setting up a conflict, the geo political issues that cause the conflict in the first place, the system's history and the internal politics of the Imperial War-machine but somehow once it gets to the boots on the ground they seem to fall a bit of the pace and sometimes fall over completely. The aforementioned issue that Vet Sergeant brought up about the conflicts happening in a vacum is a very nice way of putting it. I'm yet to properly read IA 12: The Fall of Orpheus (a travesty I know, I've scim read it though) and I'm hoping that since it's the first time they have talked about a "sector" as it were (well I suppose technically second) then it could be a good look at a wider war and it's effects.

I do wonder how FW goes about writing these books and decided how the forces engage as it does seem a bit hit and miss sometimes, Vraks I felt was quite good, it managed to match the forces pretty evenly and it could have gone either way where as Taros was set up to failure I thought.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> Is it because to increase sells ?
> 
> Personal if they re-introduce the primarchs that might increase sells for both the literature and table top.


Two repetative questions that seem really Reatrded at this point; no offense meant freind. Seen these questions too often in threads in this Sub-Forum and I've asked the latter of the two twice.

No to the first, and probably not for the second. On the first issue they change Fluff for the same reason as George Lucas adds content to Star Wars and Gene Roddenberry wrote the Star Trek saga that became a culture icon. It develops an already good story and creates a basis for other creative minds to base their novels on and grow the genre in general. The Codex, Main Rulebook, and central Lore are developed by Games Workshop to facilitate the development of the novels/memorabelia that makes additional money off of it. 

Plenty of Custom Primarch models are floating out their, and to make them common would ruin the point of a Primarch. It's like the 3 God Cards of Yu-Gi-Oh when they first came out. They were rare, then everyone had them and they became an annoyance instead of a trend. Same deal sadly.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Good points Jacobite.

Forgeworld seems fantastic at world building, they're great at creating these campaign locations and fleshing them out. Look at all the disparate cultures they created for the Chapters in the Babdab books and the way they brought the Maelstorm Region to life. Reading through it you get a sense of the byzantine nature of Imperial politics and a real sense of history and culture of the region. 

When it comes to the nuts and bolts of the campaign things can get a bit odd however, particularly when it comes to numbers and the prosecution of the campaigns. Vraks for example is built up as this strategically vital world, an arsenal world which is the munitions hub for the sectors around it. It's defenses are top notch. Yet the Death Korps regiments number in the what, hundreds of thousands? This is the Imperium we're talking about, 40k, a campign across an entire world. I expect there to be millions of men involved, we've had more men in single armies on single fronts in WW2. It seems like so often the writers forget the scale of 40k and the implications of void warfare and what ramifications orbital control will have. 

One of my favorite background books remains _Tactica Imperialis_, a book detailing various campaigns of the Imperial Guard and the way they prosecute them. One goes into detail on the tactics and strategy of orbital landings and assaults, on how the Imperium goes about assaulting whole worlds. 

In a similar vein i think my favorite line of fluff is the one detailing the mustering for the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. Warmaster Slaydo ammassed billions of men, billions! Finally an appreciation of the scale and logistics involved in the conquest of entire systems and sectors.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Love that Tactica Imperialis book, it's also got one of my favorite pieces of 40k art in it: those two Mordant 13th troopers towards the end of it, really cool. Sadly GW don't really produce much in that style any more.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Rems,

Well, at least I could give you some rep. Thanks for the reminder on Tactica Imperials. I really have to go through that again!

Also, great points re: scale.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Can I steal some Rep? Lol just kidding 



Rems said:


> Tactica Imperialis


Great freak'in book, only non-standard Codex I bought nd worth the entire read.



Rems said:


> Finally an appreciation of the scale and logistics involved in the conquest of entire systems and sectors.


I thought that is what "Planetary Empires," was for. 



Jacobite said:


> Yes GW's reduced profits and drop in share price are soley to with the fluff of their games. In fact if they were to hire you as head writer and allowed you to retcon everything over night then all would be well again. We would enter into a new golden age of 40k...


I just have to disagree here and state something real quick. I will grant you their Fluff has....suffered a bit. However let us not forget the massive Lord of the Rings financial fiasco they suffered financially a few years back. 

In a article I found on "Beast of War," website (http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/games-workshop-thinking/) I found the author made excellent points in both attacking and defending the business model of GW. This, IMHO, is really what has killed GW; not their Fluff. 



> GW have tightened the reins on online retail massively, they have created an environment where if an online retailer wants to be efficient (remember no new ones can join unless they have a physical store), they need to invest up to 1 million pounds in GW stock, and that is unlikely to happen. They have introduced clauses to limit how retailers grow in terms of their own media engines (this was one that directly affected ourselves) ensuring that no competitors grow out of their own eco-system.
> 
> They have raised prices to increase the profit margins to try and support the key areas of the business.
> 
> ...


In short, after already suffering a set back, they choked themselves and any freindly competition in an effort to corner the market. Then they drove prices up to a point where hobbyists (exception being the hardcore 40k fans) couldn't really afford them. The price-elasticity I beleive we call it, has finally been reached. 

Again I will not profess to be an expert on the matter; for financially tuned minds should join this conversation. However I just cannot stand to hear someone make the claim that Fluff, of all things, is what is killing this game. Really can you give me some examples at least?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What killed GW was their "we are a models company"; erm, no. Most older collectors will buy it for the models because the rules suck ass and the community... erm yeah, what am I kidding myself for? The community is none existent anymore, thanks to transitory sales from children getting one or two big christmas presents.

The rules don't back up the game, with the exception of "the big new"; Riptides, Wraithknights, Baledrakes, Centurions, etc. These new pieces of kit aren't necessarily bad, it's just that with the exception of these new models, the rest of the rules for the most part suck.

For those who get into either Chaos or Dark Angels from the box set, they've got the two worst armies in the game right now.

For a modelling company, some of the new ones are looking distinctly child-like and cost too much for it. Comparison sized airfix kits not only have much more detail on them but cost comparatively less. Compare a Wraithknight to say an Airfix type 45 destroyer; it's a 1:350 scale, which puts it around 18" in size; the Wraithknight is what, half that? And requires no skill or patience to put together at all. That's what a modelling company is; not what GW is.

They forget that many people actually game, or would game if the rules supported their armies. But as it stands, they don't. So people don't play. And all those newcomers which spent £200 on creating a new army of Space Marines only to find out they suck because they went up against Tau, Eldar, Eld-tau, Tau-dar, or Eldar-Dark Eldar and have NO CHANCE of winning are going to get pissed off.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

As has been stated many times before @emporershand89 orange text = sarcasm


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> Yes GW's reduced profits and drop in share price are soley to with the fluff of their games. In fact if they were to hire you as head writer and allowed you to retcon everything over night then all would be well again. We would enter into a new golden age of 40k...


Don't be silly Jacobite, the primary reason GW is suffering a drop in their sales is because of advent of competition from games like Warmachine and Infinity. :so_happy: The fact that their fluff is narrowed in scope and depth since the game's inception doesn't help, if they took more care with their fluff they might be able to mitigate their losses with better book sales and a decent movie. But the core of their problem is the assumption that fans will not jump ship and the assumption that they can recruit new players among a video game saturated marketplace. :biggrin:

I appreciate your vote in confidence in my fluff ability. :victory:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

They should hire you as CEO as well. Seems your handle on the problems of GW is as good as your thoughts on fluff. I'm sure the job offer is in the mail.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I think you're the fish, Jac.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

These hills have trolls.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Oh I'm well aware of that. The weather is shit and I'm bored.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> They should hire you as CEO as well. Seems your handle on the problems of GW is as good as your thoughts on fluff. I'm sure the job offer is in the mail.



Why on this good Earth would I want to take a pay cut and move to England?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Einherjar667 said:


> These hills have trolls.


Shhhhhh....some trolls are skiddish and will sever what little social contract they get from a computer screen if spooked.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Shhhhhh....some trolls are skiddish and will sever what little social contract they get from a computer screen if spooked.



And yet here you are.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> And yet here you are.


I'm one of those persistent trolls and it seems I found another one.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ladies. Put your lipgloss away.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Ladies. Put your lipgloss away.


This.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

locustgate said:


> I'm one of those persistent trolls and it seems I found another one.


Query. How am I a troll?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You're a dick, which is enough for me.

Grow a set, take yourself to stores, and find yourself a pair of adult male shoulders, and take this to PM. Seriously, it's like walking into a girls changing room on period day. Man the fuck up.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You're a dick, which is enough for me.
> 
> Grow a set, take yourself to stores, and find yourself a pair of adult male shoulders, and take this to PM. Seriously, it's like walking into a girls changing room on period day. Man the fuck up.


Wow, your ad hominems man you sound so intelligent :wacko:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Enough. Either keep this thread on topic or keep out of it.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So much hostility in here, yet I find this thread and the TC to be very interesting.

Good thread, and good generation of content discussion.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Lux said:


> So much hostility in here, yet I find this thread and the TC to be very interesting.
> 
> Good thread, and good generation of content discussion.


Agreed. 

I think that the problem is that some people (I am naming no names here) feel a dogmatic reverence for the fluff as it stands. Its like they see Matt Ward as the Pope.

I like 40k. I like the grimdark feel, the hybridazation of German Gothic archetypes with science fiction. I like the aesthetics of the space marines and the fatalistic reality of the Imperium that makes fascism justified. 

What I do not like is the misogyny, the lack of consistency, and the narrow scope that the writers take. They establish the Warp as a realm of infinite horror and wonder, but as far as I can tell the only thing that comes out of it are the chaos gods and their servants.

I think the core of the problem is that the fluff is always subservient to the tabletop. 40k as so much potential beyond acting as a backstory to a miniature game but the folks at GW are too blind to see it. Just once I would like to see a novel that focuses on a enemy that is not from the game at all. A new chaos god, an alien race that is not one of five playable factions.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Vaz said:


> And all those newcomers which spent £200 on creating a new army of Space Marines only to find out they suck because they went up against Tau, Eldar, Eld-tau, Tau-dar, or Eldar-Dark Eldar and have NO CHANCE of winning are going to get pissed off.


No newcomers go to tournaments, and nobody in the real world plays netlists.

I can go down to Gobstyk's on a Thursday night, one of the more prominent GCN locations and semi-regular haunt of Jervis Johnson (much to our chagrin) and see a wide variety of people playing a wide variety of armies against each other and enjoying it. *Nobody *actually runs 3x Guardians in Serpents 3x Jetbikes 2x Farseer 1x O'mmortal 2x Fire Warriors 2x Riptide. That shit crops up on the internet, and in tournaments. Not where GW people play (as I said, Jervis comes along a couple of times a year and plays armchair general and generally pisses people off, usually by being waaay too involved in other people's games).


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think that the problem is that some people (I am naming no names here) feel a dogmatic reverence for the fluff as it stands. Its like they see Matt Ward as the Pope.
> 
> ...


Post repped, I love seeing people being absolute hypocrites when it comes to fluff. Many just gleefully just take one codex or book that they love. Base everything about fluff due to that narrow viewpoint and then feels obliged to slam another codex (usually one written by a different author to boot) making it even more strange.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think that the problem is that some people (I am naming no names here) feel a dogmatic reverence for the fluff as it stands. Its like they see Matt Ward as the Pope.
> 
> ...


The Fluff in and of itself is illusory in essence, it is inherently malleable to begin with and that is the fundamental issue in why the consumers of it disagree heavily. Most individuals as well as humans tend to be drawn towards consistency, expectancy, predictability, and ultimately fear the unknown. The fluff is the epitome of something that has no true shape, its value as well as purpose is shaped by the consumer which in this case is the reader. 

Games Workshop has seen that they are unable to satiate the demand of multiple markets with a singular product/service, thus over the years they have re-branded several other products/services. Their products/services that aim to please the consumers who have a demand for them more often than not do not effectively satisfy the demand for those who want more "fluff" valued products/services. Thus it is no wonder that often the Table Top conflicts with that of the Fluff products/services; this is because they are inherently two entirely different products to begin with. It is akin with trying to discuss the mechanics Intel's consumer grade processors with that of its processed components utilized in particle accelerators, same brand name with different market functions.

The psychological component is immense on this forum as well, the fictional "Fluff" of the warhammer 40k mythos is purposely left in a liquid state. This is so that it is able to appease the largest number of consumers in their particular industry as possible; Games Workshop tactic is to attempt to capture the largest percentage possible of their industry rather than focusing upon a niche component of it. There is no set definition of anything in the fluff, and there is no distinctive "Right" or "Wrong" in how the "fluff" is interpreted. The very action of Games Workshop ever distributing a declaration of a concrete structure of interpretation to the fluff is the day they stop trying to acquire market share, and have are now focusing on catering to a niche market. However that will never occur due to Games Workshop aiming to maximize profit margins, as well as return on equity. The industry that Games Workshop occupies is not volatile in nature, thus they see a consistent as well as predictable stream of cash flows. In turn this means that Games Workshop will be working with a predictable yet consistent "low" number of sales, in comparison to other industries of course. Thus in order to spur profitability Games Workshop needs to ensure that every sale made generates the maximum amount of income, it is in part why their products/services are so "Expensive" in comparison to their cost of production. Their return on equity is one of their prime goals along with that of profit margins, in order for them to survive and capture the market share they need to be more efficient than their competitors.

The Warhammer 40k fanbase is a testament to the effectiveness of Games Workshop’s marketing, and of their influence on societal perceptions. Their products invoke an emotional response in their targeted consumers; it is why individuals on this forum have such heart strong emotionally driven reactions when their "favorite" legion or primarch is "disrespected". It is because the consumers of Games workshop's products/services have aligned their own sense of identity with that of the fictional characters, which in turn is why their products have such a high a retention rate of sales. The Legions as well as the primarchs, and for that matter near every driving character in the mythos is crafted with personality traits, and culturally valued traits in order to lure individuals to resonate with them. The reason Games Workshop has fleshed out the primarchs to be so vastly different from one another is a marketing tactic, it is being done in order to have at least one primarch that every consumer in their target market can relate to personally. I smile with joy whenever I generate an emotionally driven response from an individual on a Warhammer 40k forum, this is due to it displaying how emotionally invested they are in their self perpetuated fictional personalities.

I have said it before and I say it again, everyone who consumes Warhammer 40k is a part of the warhammer 40k mythos be it a guardsman, a greenskin, a tyranid, a primarch or chaos god.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The part about the favorite legion and such can just be translated into each individual has core-values regarding fluff. Things they are not willing to budge an inch on. Then you have another person who has an equally fanatical yet rather radical interpretation about that fluff and those two collide. Then you are doomed to see insults and whatever fly as on the net people in general lacks politeness and a forum attracts ample swarms of keyboard-warriors.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Thank you Lux. Your analysis is most thought provoking. You hit the nail right on the head when you talk about how they use the primarchs different character traits to create an emotional attachment between consumer and product. 

I would disagree with you on two counts. your statement that their market is not volatile. Once upon a time GW had a monopoly on strategy games, but that is no longer the case. Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity is stealing a huge chunk of their market both with people leaving 40k to play the cheaper games as well as potential adopters opting into these alternatives for their first experience with tabletop. In addition there is a shrinking demand for people to play tabletop games with videogames offering an alluring alternative. This is why GW needs its fluff now more then ever.

The Grimdark 41st millennium is an amazing backdrop for books, film (both small screen and big screen) and games to take place in. These products are infinitely more accessible to the consumer base then a tabletop game that requires a relatively large investment in money and time to play. 

The second thing I would disagree with you on is that GW is not playing to a niche. I am fairly certain that GW believes that it has a target audience of males between 8 and 18. They market and sell their products according to the fiction that their customers are unsophisticated boys. This may have been the case in the early 90s. But those fans are adults now and it does not seem like GW has grown with its initial audience.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Thank you Lux. Your analysis is most thought provoking. You hit the nail right on the head when you talk about how they use the primarchs different character traits to create an emotional attachment between consumer and product.
> 
> I would disagree with you on two counts. your statement that their market is not volatile. Once upon a time GW had a monopoly on strategy games, but that is no longer the case. Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity is stealing a huge chunk of their market both with people leaving 40k to play the cheaper games as well as potential adopters opting into these alternatives for their first experience with tabletop. In addition there is a shrinking demand for people to play tabletop games with videogames offering an alluring alternative. This is why GW needs its fluff now more then ever.
> 
> ...


To clarify on the first part by market volatility I meant that the industry they operate in is not "volatile", as in the industry sees generally consistent cash flows from year to year with small changes in variance. For example a volatile industry would be the restaurant industry, which operates within the services sector. The restaurant industry sees vastly fluctuating increases, and decrease in overall cash flows due to commonly shifting consumer tastes, values, and expectations.

The industry that Games Workshop operates in is for the most part very non "volatile", as in the cash flows for the industry as a whole are generally static. That is not to say that the companies operating within that industry do not see increases and decreases in their own net incomes, just that the industry is relatively stable in how much cash flow it sees from year to year. Games Workshop is seeing decreases in their net income not because the industry is seeing massive decreases, but rather because their are more competitors within their industry that are consuming portions of the sales that use to reap uncontested.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Aye. But that static cash-flow is bound to have taken a few hits in the last decade.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Aye. But that static cash-flow is bound to have taken a few hits in the last decade.


It isn't so much that the industry of "Recreation Goods" is suffering "heavily", rather it is that the products/services that Games Workshop offers are not as in high demand anymore. Thus what happened was that Games workshop had more supply than there was market demand for its products, thus they cut down heavily on supply to satiate the diminishing market demand for their goods. This in turn is why they focus so heavily on maximizing Profit Margins, and for maximizing Return on Equity. Both of those financial indicators measure efficiency, which is what Games Workshop is attempting to focus on so they may survive. However the reason their fluff has become much more "Generalized", is because they are attempting to reach out to more consumers that inhabit the market of "Recreation Goods". Games Workshop now more than ever has been attempting to instill uniqueness to each of the legions, primarchs, and other empires (such as necrons, eldar, orks, etc) in order to attract more consumers that may identify with them.

Targeting a Niche consumer base in the Recreation Goods industry would be very bad for net income, as the recreation goods industry just isn't "big" enough for Games Workshop to survive off by going after a niche component of it. Games Workshop operating costs and other liabilities need to be off set by a sufficient amount of net income/assets, thus they are going two objectives. The First objective is to become desirable by more consumers in order to increase market demand for their products, the second objective is to be as efficient as possible to make every dollar earned in sales generate as much income as possible.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I think you're the first person in history to say "Thanks for supporting my viewpoint, Lux".

You do know who Lux is right?

_________

In regards to your posts regarding the Warp... erm, yes, that's what the Warp is. Infinite madness. In truth, there is no "Bloodletter", or "Plaguebearer", other than what the writers use to provide a baseline idea for what comes out. Compare the difference between the original Metal bloodletters from 5th edition fantasy, compared to 6th edition, and compare that to the 7th edition plastics. How different their appearances are.

As you can say, fluff is mutable; but by the writers. You are not a writer for it. Anything else you want is fanfiction; which they encourage, but ignore. There are rare occurences of fanfiction being included; whether it's the Sons of Orar, Blood Ravens, or TheReverends Space Wolves style of painting SW which was included in the BRB.

For example, many people disagree with my take on the Wood Elves.

I feel they should be one of the darkest, my vile factions out there. Druidic, Shamanistic, Blood rites, Viking, Grimm Fairy tale shit. As brutal as their child snatching, mind controlling forest spirit ideas should be. As bad as the Snow White and the Huntsman movie was; the Forest of Loren should be like that. Forbidding.

Not the Forest of Dean, Hunting type forest, which is used by Lords to hunt Boar (like Arden); which are dangerous enough. But a dangerous, deadly, sentient forest.

Compare that to the forest found within the current Army book and expanded upon by Darius Hinks; the forest is a fairy land with the odd *no go*. Effectively High Elves in trees. I don't like that. They've had nearly 4000 years to change. As much as I like, that can't change until the GW designers try to change it to that.

Considering you say *how much fluff changes because of the investors*, short of the Dev Team introducing new *bullshit*; (Centurions) or *awesome* (Stalker/Hunter, say), and then trying to fit into the rules a bit of background, it's not going to change much.

For example; despite the introduction of Centurions, the Horus Heresy doesn't change. The Eye of Terror still happens in the Eldar's Fall and Slaanesh's birth.

The major events do not change; actually; tell a lie; with the exception of "Omegon" introduced within *Legion*, the major events do not change. However, due to the Alpha Legions nature, we do not actually know whether Alpharius's *death* actually happened. A) Did it happen anyway, b) If it did, was it Alpharius, or was it omegon, c) if it did, and it was Alpharius, what's Omegon done since, d) if it was Omegon, what's Alpharius doing now, and e) if it didn't happen, what are the two of them doing now?

So, the meta doesn't change.

We have 10000 years of history, with an entire galaxy to go around. There are ~100 or so documented chapters, probably ~50 with actual proper background, ~30 or so with documented events, any number of Imperial Guard regiments, etc etc etc. Nothing is finite. The galaxy doesn't have a defined number of worlds. A defined anything.

So what point are you making. We have a Whitelist which is being continually added to. There is no blacklist.

Your thread in essence, serves no purpose, unless it was your desire to have this spelled out to you like I was explaining it to my 7 year old cousin (coincidentally, who is currently throwing a tantrum and determined to smear apple and blueberry pie all over my dog - a 133lb German Shepherd base mongrel - , my fiance, the walls and throw her lego bricks at me because I'm laughing at her.)


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

If you think I (because lets face it, I'm one of the people you mean) have a dogmatic reverence for the fluff then you really need to go through and see what I have to say on the likes of the Ultramarine's, Draigo, the "new" Necrons and the changing role of the C'tan, the GK's bathing in the blood of Sisters, the confusion over when the Nid's arrived in relation to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the change of focus in one of the Chaos Codex's to focus on warbands instead of the legions, the intended tactical role of the Centurions, the Dreadknight and the way the Taros Campaign played out but to name a few. I personally dislike all of that however I'm not claiming that it doesn't exist nor am I saying that it's based of the societal prejudices of the authors and people who do like those things also support those societal prejudices. If GW comes out and changes the fluff to allow female Space Marines tomorrow then fair dos, I'll accept that as happening. I won't try and deny it. But at the moment that's not the case despite, what 3 failed attempts to prove other wise by you?

Just because I don't think that the fluff written supports female marines does not make me a misogynist or a supporter of misogynist writers. Me saying that Sisters of Battle should be retconned out of the fluff simply on the basis of them being women and therefore have no place on a battlefield would be misogynist but I'm not saying that and if somebody were I would tell them to shove right off. The absence of something does equate to a hatred of that thing. Just because there is no rice called for in a recipe for a roast does not equate to the writer of the recipe hating rice. Is the creator of the SOB a misandrist simply because it is stated that a man can't be a Sister of Battle? Coming out and labeling the fluff as misogynist is one of the reasons you get the reactions you do. And that I believe is number 4. Guess my predictions were correct.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> I think you're the first person in history to say "Thanks for supporting my viewpoint, Lux".
> 
> You do know who Lux is right?
> 
> ...


I disagree with this, the fluff is malleable in nature and thus is constantly changing depending upon the consumers that are consuming it. 

You see certain events as being concrete because that is how you have chosen to arrange your perception of the fluff, those concrete points you have chosen to be "unchangeable" are your psychological points of stability.

The truth to the matter is that none of the fluff is "truth", "concrete", or for "Certain". It is stated very clearly by Black Library that every book, codex, and text we have witnessed is a re-released historical documentation by the Inquisition. Thus what we are reading is merely the flawed view point of a inquisitional writer, editor, or of a long deceased imperial operative. We will never know what truly happened 10,000 years ago, it may be that years from now Games Workshop will release documents stating that most of what we know from the fluff is a lie that was perpetuated by corruption.

For all we know Horus was actually leading a crusade to save his father from corruption, that the Chaos Gods were in fact the Emperor all along and using him as their host for walking in the materium. For all we know the eye of Terror was never made by the Fall of the Eldar, and that Slaanesh even exist.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

That point from Lux I totally agree with. Everything is up to interpretation.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You disagree with what I said, and then back up your disagreement with agreeing with exactly what I said.

The end result doesn't change. The status quo, the stagnancy still occurs. You're still left with the same end game, even if the play-by-play changes. Until it's changed otherwise, the Emperor is still sitting on his Throne. Horus is dead, the Legions are fled into the EoT, the Eldar are a falling race, the Necrons are still awakening, the Nids are still coming into the Galaxy from the void, the Tau are a new race on the galactic scale, the Daemons are still creatures of the warp.

The groundwork, the foundations are set. Ferrus Manus is not suddenly still alive. Calth still happened, Signus still happened.

The events are immutable. How they occur is.

Anything else, Lux, and you're talking your usual bollocks. Which is fucking hilarious but annoying at the same time.

While yes, what we're reading is a filtered and blinkered, biased, subjective point of view from each authors protagonists, and we can't know the "truth", (you do realise said world is fictional write). What we have to go on is written sources; those sources being the codices and the novels.

While they may be as fake as Pliny's Natural History, we're dealing with an event that is yet to come to pass, and we're effectively debating theology and philosophy on something fake.

Which is fucking weird, nonesensical, and leads to you thinking that your views have credence because your gibberish cannot actually be answered. If all the fluff, or canon, " is how {I} have chosen to arrange {my} perception", then that essentially resolves around to everything in life, leading to possibly believing that everything is in its own Microcosm, which could have possibly created in your dreams. Which is utter bollocks, really.

But then, we've already had that conversation where you believe you created 40K in your mind. And look where that went...

_When you were in 'Nam, son, did you see shit?_


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> You disagree with what I said, and then back up your disagreement with agreeing with exactly what I said.
> 
> The end result doesn't change. The status quo, the stagnancy still occurs. You're still left with the same end game, even if the play-by-play changes. Until it's changed otherwise, the Emperor is still sitting on his Throne. Horus is dead, the Legions are fled into the EoT, the Eldar are a falling race, the Necrons are still awakening, the Nids are still coming into the Galaxy from the void, the Tau are a new race on the galactic scale, the Daemons are still creatures of the warp.
> 
> ...


You are viewing what I said purely how you want to see it, I did not state nor do I agree that there are concrete points in the fluff. There is no status quo.

Ferrus Manus is only dead because the edited as well as tampered documents that we have limited access to state he died, however does that mean he actually died? No. It is only perceived that way because that is how someone, and or something wanted us to perceive Ferrus Manus for a specific reason.

For all we know the warp doesn't even exist, or we are the warp and the warp is the materium to which we would be the daemons to them.

There is no set way to perceive the fluff, there is no concrete points, you can disregard any piece of information you want due to that every piece of published warhammer 40k lore is done so from a finite inquisitional standpoint.

Everything that is published regarding 40k lore is not from some "god" point of view, it was written by a flawed mortal individual, and then it was processed and screened by the inquisition before being given to us the consumer to read.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks, for writing exactly what I wrote down once again. Please, stop doing my job for me. It's too easy.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Thanks, for writing exactly what I wrote down once again. Please, stop doing my job for me. It's too easy.


You are a prime example of the ideal consumer that Games Workshop markets their product to, the entirity of the Warhammer 40k mythos has no shape, no meaning, no limitations. Games Workshop merely provides the tools to their consumers in exchange for monetary value, in essence what Games Workshop is selling is a product/service of "Control". Thus the consumers that value the aspect of "control" will purchase the products/services that Games Workshop sells, however they will only do so as long as the cost does not outweigh the perceived benefits gained.

You stated the following:


Vaz said:


> "*The end result doesn't change. The status quo, the stagnancy still occurs*. You're still left with the same end game, even if the play-by-play changes. Until it's changed otherwise, the Emperor is still sitting on his Throne. Horus is dead, the Legions are fled into the EoT, the Eldar are a falling race, the Necrons are still awakening, the Nids are still coming into the Galaxy from the void, the Tau are a new race on the galactic scale, the Daemons are still creatures of the warp.
> 
> *The groundwork, the foundations are set. Ferrus Manus is not suddenly still alive. Calth still happened, Signus still happened.
> 
> The events are immutable. How they occur is.*"



I do not agree with your predisposition, there is no end result, Ferrus Manus is still alive, Calth didn't happen, Signus didn't happen. The Stagnation only occurs in your perception because you want it to, it by no means is occuring in all perceptions simultaneously. You need to differentiate between your own personal perception, and that of a macro-centric paradigm which applies to all consumers that compose it.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I think you're the first person in history to say "Thanks for supporting my viewpoint, Lux".
> 
> You do know who Lux is right?
> 
> ...


I have no idea who Lux is other than someone with an interesting interpretation on GWs marketing strategy. 

Its funny you bring up the fall of the Eldar as your example of fluff that does not change because in 1st Ed the Eldar were not a fallen race. In Rogue Trader they are portrayed as civilization that has reached the pinnacle of sophistication. The eldar encountered by humans are bored sophisticates who have decided to go slumming among humans.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> As has been stated many times before @emporershand89 orange text = sarcasm


Yes.....I keep forgetting that sorry.



Vaz said:


> The community is none existent anymore,


For Warhammer 40k?? Because if that is what your saying I'm gonna call Sub-Zero in this chat. 



As far as I can see, in the New England Region of North America, Warhammer 40k is roaring and alive. I'm not sure how it is fairing outside the U.S/U.K but here it seems to be doing fine. Which community are you refering too??


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

GabrielSagan. You're comparing the status quo of at least 4 editions, I didn't play second. Since then, Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K have become seperate settings with crossovers linking the two together, for example. Don't be a pendantic twat, but hey, it's you, so I'll roll with it, I sort of expect it.

In regards to Lux, try taking acid to understand its posts.

Lux, when you lick windows, do you tell people that they taste like Chicken, and when they say "no its not", and to prove a point to shut you up, and actually lick the window, and find out that it tastes like what it is (glass), you then insult them and belittle them by saying "your perceptions fucked, obviously not as high mine"?

Because essentially that's what you're doing. It's getting tiresome, and I honestly do not understand why after all this time the staff put up with it. At first it was cute, funny, and now its tiresome. Your patronising *tone* doesn't help.

Emperorshand69, compare the "community" of the 40K players now to what it used to be. The old GW forums, where people actually were able to put input and criticisms and get answers from the actual Dev team compared to now, where barely literate social recluses sit in an office that cannot even be contacted directly, and have to be redirected from Customer Services manage to come up with half-arsed rulings.

Hell, in the tactica I'm writing, as much as I profess how good the 30K legion rules are, I've come across so many fuck ups. ranging from Terminator Armoured Primarchs not being able to able to take Terminator Command Squads, or Jump Packs for Curze's command squad, etc, just to show how bad some of the proof reading was; the Customer Service guy is getting fucked off with having to forward an email from me, type up the reply/copy paste it, then get my return email as I hammer into their skulls that the FAQ team don't even know the fucking game they're answering the questions too.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Well I have only been playing since 2007 so I qwill not challenge you on the past history of Warhammer 40k. However I cannot imagine it has lost much steam even under the terrible direction of GW. If anything let ForgeWorld take over as they really know how things should be done.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> GabrielSagan. You're comparing the status quo of at least 4 editions, I didn't play second. Since then, Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K have become seperate settings with crossovers linking the two together, for example. Don't be a pendantic twat, but hey, it's you, so I'll roll with it, I sort of expect it.
> 
> In regards to Lux, try taking acid to understand its posts.
> 
> ...


Vaz you tend to project quite often, and for the most part it is you who most often patronizes those who do not agree with your perceptions. Your view is purely your own micro-centric view, it is not right nor is it the majority. All views are the same, you are no different than Emperorguard500, nor is anyone else different from any other in regards to quality of opinion.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Everybody stop for a moment. And take the time to remember this is all a game and not worth taking personally.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Everybody stop for a moment. And take the time to remember this is all a game and not worth taking personally.


Well it is like I prior said in this thread



> The Warhammer 40k fanbase is a testament to the effectiveness of Games Workshop’s marketing, and of their influence on societal perceptions. Their products invoke an emotional response in their targeted consumers; it is why individuals on this forum have such heart strong emotionally driven reactions when their "favorite" legion or primarch is "disrespected". It is because the consumers of Games workshop's products/services have aligned their own sense of identity with that of the fictional characters, which in turn is why their products have such a high a retention rate of sales. The Legions as well as the primarchs, and for that matter near every driving character in the mythos is crafted with personality traits, and culturally valued traits in order to lure individuals to resonate with them.


Vaz...Chill...have a pina colada


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Stop gibbering.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well if no fluff is concrete and anyone can interpret it however they want, I believe that Konrad Curze was in fact the sickly, weakling brother amongst the primarchs (with little to no fighting skills), and, in fact, a crossdresser. No one was actually afraid of him, but in fact afraid of him flashing his hairy legs in a short skirt. And no one can tell me I am wrong because all our opinions and interpretations are equally valid, regardless of what the written fluff says.

See how ridiculous things can get when we follow a certain forum member's line of reasoning and interpretation?


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

Can we all have pina coladas?


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