# What Legion Could Have Trampled the Ultramarines?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Take a good understanding of the number 250,000. Is it possible that any legion by themselves could have successfully triumphed over this force? The Ultramarines, who control an entire system, and pretty much the entire Eastern Empire. 

Because we were unable to witness the Ultramarines capability against the traitors at full extent, we can't know for sure. But what do you think? If there was one legion that could destroy this legion, which one would it be? What kind of traits or tactic would be required to destroy such a force.

I'll let you guys think about that for a while, while I make my decision.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

A Legion by themselves with no allies (Like Custodes, Sisters)?

I don't believe any single Legion could do it. If the Ultramarines numbered 250,000 and the Word bearers numbered 100,000 as the next largest then that's a pretty massive difference. Add to the fact that they have eight systems and a large, organised military to back them up from Ultramar then I honestly can't see any Legion beating them single-handedly.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Theoretically, any other could possibly defeat the UM. It all depends on the situation. But if I had to say which Legions and their Primarchs had the best chance of beating Guilliman and the UM, it would be Horus and the Luna Wolves, Lorgar and Word Bearers and Alpharius and the Alpha Legion. Horus was said to be the greatest of the Primarchs and is certainly a strategist to rival Guilliman. The Word Bearers are said to be the second largest Legion before the HH, so in a sheer numbers battle they could stand up to the UM. Like Horus and Guilliman, Alpharius is a brilliant strategist and well-versed in how Guilliman and his Legion thinks. Guilliman only managed to defeat him, allegedly, by acting outside the rigid Ultramarine box of tactics.

But I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons out there for other Legions and Primarchs defeating the Ultrasmurfs and Big Poppa Ultrasmurf.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think any Legion alone would beat the Ultramarines through brute force, unless they found a way to negate the smurfs' number advantage and won a series of key victories. It would take a brilliant strategist, so I throw my lot in with the Alpha Legion or the Luna Wolves.

Pair either of those up with the Word Bearers (for muscle) and it'd be a potent combination.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> The Word Bearers are said to be the second largest Legion before the HH, so in a sheer numbers battle they could stand up to the UM. Like Horus and Guilliman


The Ultramarines numbered 250,000 Astartes Pre-heresy.

The Word Bearers numbered 100,000 Astartes. They may be the second largest legion, but it's a pretty huge gap between the two in terms of numbers. The Ultramarines still outnumber the WB more than 2-1. They arn't matching the Ultramarines in numbers.


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## chand223 (Mar 19, 2010)

I would definitely have to say the Luna Wolves. Their favored tactic of the 'spearhead' would probably be the best way to negate the Ultramarines number superiority. I would think they would try and draw out Guilliman, and deliver a massive blow to the legion like that


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Really? It was that big a gap? I find that strange as in the HH, Lorgar divided the WB, the smaller portion following him to Terra while Kor Phaeron led the rest against the UM at Calth, preventing them from helping the Loyalists during the Battle of Terra. I always figured the difference between them wasn't that large.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

As has already been said a few times I think the only Legion to really stand a chance would be the Luna Wolves. I don't think that Horus would have been foolish enough to go it alone though, if he was going to attack he would have done it with some powerful allies. 
Knowing that Papa Smurf had a rod up his arse about how battle shoud and should not be waged I could see Horus making use of the less rigid Legions, probably the Alphas and Night Lords.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Really? It was that big a gap? I find that strange as in the HH, Lorgar divided the WB, the smaller portion following him to Terra while Kor Phaeron led the rest against the UM at Calth, preventing them from helping the Loyalists during the Battle of Terra. I always figured the difference between them wasn't that large.


Yeah I remember the Word Bearers number around 180,000 while most other legions numbered 80,000-100,000. 70,000 is still a large gap in number, but definitely makes sense in how the Word Bearers were able to divide their forces and still both be effective overall.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Yeah I remember the Word Bearers number around 180,000 while most other legions numbered 80,000-100,000. 70,000 is still a large gap in number, but definitely makes sense in how the Word Bearers were able to divide their forces and still both be effective overall.


No, the Word Bearers numbers 100,000 Astartes, this is stated in First Heretic.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Really? It was that big a gap? I find that strange as in the HH, Lorgar divided the WB, the smaller portion following him to Terra while Kor Phaeron led the rest against the UM at Calth, preventing them from helping the Loyalists during the Battle of Terra. I always figured the difference between them wasn't that large.


The reason why the Word Bearers had such early sucess was

1. The attack was completely unexpected.
2. They had huge numbers of daemonic support.
3. They had managed to seperate the Ultramarines on the ground from those in the fleet.

And the Word Bearers still lost in the end.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Well, in my opinion i think that any of the unconventional legions would prove difficult for the UMs. So i guess the WE or NL cuz they are batshit crazy, or Alphas cuz of their whole "we like secrets and surprise" spiel.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay, this is a bit hard, and I'm still thinking about it. I actually do believe the Ultramarines use distance as always part of their tactic. So in this case I'm going to chose from these three legions. 

Raven Guard 
Luna Wolves
Wolves of Fenris

These three legions I believe are the best at getting very close and personal with their foe, and taking away the advantage of distance from their enemies. You have the Raven Guard who's special abilities can make them undetectable, the Luna Wolves with their use of the Spear Tip and rapid deployments, and also the Wolves of Fenris who decieve their foes and try to get close and personal with their enemies. Maybe pre-Angron World Eaters, but I really couldn't tell you as they don't have much information on them. And having Angron telling them to charges miles of field to charge the enemies of the Ultramarines, may not be the key to beating them. Of course... my opinion.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

the Space Wolves! "for they are the Emperor's executioners"

but seriously, none of the legions could take on the Smurfs single-handedly 

Papa Smurf and his boys accounted for over half of the loyalist marines after the Heresy

pre-Heresy they had more than twice the number of the next largest legions (250k compared to the Word Bearer's 100k I believe)...unconventional tactics are great and all but numbers tend to really matter in war 

history has seen smaller forces defeating larger ones, but that's the rare exception and far from the norm


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I saw this thread and said to myself "Heres a shitstorm waiting to happen." 

In my unbiase opponion I would put my money formost on Thousand Sons. The SWs outnumbered the TSs, were made to be Anti Astartes, packed Custodes/Sisters of Silence, fought half the battle with no resistance, AND still got thrattled by the TS before Magnus deafeat by Russ. Magnus and his cults powers alone can wipe out 10 regular joe shmoe UM to there 1 warp powered TS. Numbers mean shit when 1 guy can controle the Nerve Endings of your company with but a thought. Not to mention controling squads Warmachine Servitors with your mind helps alot too. I think TS going all out with what they have will negate the UM #s.

My 2 cents.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Raven Guard
> Luna Wolves
> Wolves of Fenris


This, but I think it might take a combination and even then there would be a fair chance of defeat. These 3 legions were probably among the best of the legions as far as man to man goes, but I doubt they could do it alone. 

IMO, no legion could single handedly take down the UM legion. The numbers where simply to great an obstacle.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think that of the flaws we have seen from the Ultramarines, I see that the Ultramarines fall short of unorthodox foes. But of course, these faults have only been written about in the Chapter State. So in that sense, its not the same.

One, when Honsou fricken used a smaller ship to steal the Ultramarine fortress. They were unprepared for such a desperate move from Honsou.

How Corax was able to penetrate the Ultramarine Fortress along with the defenses on Calth was also very interesting, and something the Ultramarines and Calagar... along with Uriel was unprepared for.

Now we have not seen the Ultramarines might against other astartes in the Legion phase. But I dare to say how the Ultramarines fare against other Astartes. They almost lost the battle of Calth with probably less than half the Word Bearers fighting against them. 

I also look at the White Consuls. A Second Founded Chapter of the Ultramarines and a Astartes Praeses Chapter. And they still got pretty much exterminated against the Word Bearers. If a chapter could represent the Ultramarines, it would be the White Consuls, and they seriously showed some incompetence. Especially with the one on one battles.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I also look at the White Consuls. A Second Founded Chapter of the Ultramarines and a Astartes Praeses Chapter. And they still got pretty much exterminated against the Word Bearers. If a chapter could represent the Ultramarines, it would be the White Consuls, and they seriously showed some incompetence. Especially with the one on one battles.


Oh please, that was what? Less than a full loyalist chapter versus 5000-8000 chaos marines with an entire fleet after having cut off loyalist support. What, you expect the ten thousand year old veterans to get their asses handed to them by much younger loyalists? Want a fantasy world you must live in..:laugh:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Oh please, that was what? Less than a full loyalist chapter versus 5000-8000 chaos marines with an entire fleet after having cut off loyalist support. What, you expect the ten thousand year old veterans to get their asses handed to them by much younger loyalists? Want a fantasy world you must live in..:laugh:


Excuses...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Overall numbers don't tend to matter much in a war, what is more important is local numerical superiority. So bearing that in mind I would pick any of the legions capable of rapid, unorthodox combat as being the most likely to defeat the Ultramarines. Night Lords, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and White Scars would all fair pretty well I think. 

But at the end of the day it really comes down to scenario. Is it a straight up fight or a sector wide campaign? Is victory measured by strategic gain or complete destruction of the foe? These kind of thing determine whether or not the legion tasked with the defeat of the Ultras can force the boys in blue to dance to their tune and eventually win, or be crushed by the overwhelming number of the Smurfs.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I genuinely believe that no legion could beat the Ultramarines, *with equal numbers*. I would go as far as to say some legions could not beat the Ultramarines with greater numbers, I am talking during the Heresy only and I am not Matt Ward.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

increaso said:


> I genuinely believe that no legion could beat the Ultramarines, *with equal numbers*. I would go as far as to say some legions could not beat the Ultramarines with greater numbers, I am talking during the Heresy only and I am not Matt Ward.


Well since you put it like that... guys...! I found him. :threaten:


Serious note though: I'm going to have to disagree with that until I read _Rules of Engagement_ and/or more newer fluff on them. 

I don't have the _Collected Visions_ opinion of Horus. I'm certainly more in the new wave of how great Horus truly was. And Horus did not deal with that Legion like he was suppose to. I mean 250,000 astartes? That can't just slip your mind. And you can't have that whole legion stuck in the Eastern Fringe just hangen around. Even with the Great Crusade. What the hell could be there that they needed all of them? The Tyranids will not be comming for many years.

Thats why I'm thinking there was a weakness in Guilliman and his Legion that Horus thought he could take advantage of. Guilliman the leader of the greatest legion, yet not without its faults.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I would agree with increaso on what he said about Ultra smurfs. 

They WERE one of the best legions pre-heresy with a splendid battle record to show it and one of the best commanders and Papa smurf to lead them to boot. They were a very balanced legion, capable of fighting in any kind of combat scenario no matter who their opponent was and were prepared to deal with any threat, seeing as the captains and head chains of command look to be just like their primarch, which they all possessed a bit of master strategist in them all. If there was a anti legion chapter out there, it would be the Ultra smurfs. This is not a love post for Ultra smurfs and i do believe their battle doctrine is prone to problems due to flexibility issue's as they are not capable of having a battle doctrine for every little thing. Its more like they have a plan for plans. Only Legion I can think of who can outsmart Ultra smurfs and tactically best them are the Alpha Legion. Alpharius was known to have pushed his legion to be the best of the best after the insult and belittling Papa smurf gave him. He wanted to prove his Legion was the best and in the end not only are they one of the best in subterfuge warfare, there regular marines were the best, pushed and trained harder then any other legion. Alpharius was also pissed because Guilleman boasted about his extensive war record of his legion and scorned Alpharius for his young legion who had yet to prove themselves.

If i remember correctly, there was a battle during the heresy in which the Alpha Legion won against the Ultra smurfs. Though Alpharius may have died, his Legion still fought on harder then ever and managed to push the Ultramarines off the planet and win the battle.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

increaso said:


> I genuinely believe that no legion could beat the Ultramarines, *with equal numbers*. I would go as far as to say some legions could not beat the Ultramarines with greater numbers, I am talking during the Heresy only and I am not Matt Ward.


Are you planning on providing some evidence to back up this wild, and frankly rediculous, claim?



XxDreMisterxX said:


> They WERE one of the best legions pre-heresy with a splendid battle record to show it and one of the best commanders and Papa smurf to lead them to boot.


Despite being the most numerous legion their record was no more splendid than many other legions. They trailed the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists (just to name a few of the top of my head) all of which were smaller legions. 



> They were a very balanced legion, capable of fighting in any kind of combat scenario no matter who their opponent was and were prepared to deal with any threat, seeing as the captains and head chains of command look to be just like their primarch, which they all possessed a bit of master strategist in them all.


All of the legions were capable of fighting any foe in any type of combat possible. Some excelled in certain scenarios, and would've excelled in bringing those scenarios into play, but all were capable of fighting anything the Crusade threw at them. 



> If there was a anti legion chapter out there, it would be the Ultra smurfs.


Despire the fact that the Space Wolves are pretty much stated to be this? Or the fact that there are other legions far better equiped to deal with other legions. 


Ultimately it comes down to the fact that the Ultramarines were Jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. If another legion (pretty much any legion really) came in and forced (this would be the tricky part) the Ultramarines to fight on their terms in their speciality I really don't think the Smurfs numbers would be enough. The Alpha Legion would be the only legion capable of beating the Ultras at their own game though.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Are you planning on providing some evidence to back up this wild, and frankly rediculous, claim?


Primarily, Rules of Engagement, but others who have read it will dispute to what extent that story means anything. I think Iron Within says a lot as well.

I'm not even an Ultramarines fan really, but I still think they were the most tactically sound legion at the time of the HH.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

increaso said:


> I think Iron Within says a lot as well.


You mean about their tactics?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

increaso said:


> Primarily, Rules of Engagement, but others who have read it will dispute to what extent that story means anything. I think Iron Within says a lot as well.
> 
> I'm not even an Ultramarines fan really, but I still think they were the most tactically sound legion at the time of the HH.


imo simply because they religously adhere to their codex for strategies which probably could be found in an imperium public library, they are not tactically sound at all and quite predictable/easy to counter.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> imo simply because they religously adhere to their codex for strategies which probably could be found in an imperium public library, they are not tactically sound at all and quite predictable/easy to counter.


I concur. They just appear to be very by the book. And thing about that, is that at least during the time of the Legions they could back that up with victories due to their large ass legion.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

What you need to remember is that the Codex Astartes was written after the heresy so if the Heresy never happened then the Ultramarine's wouldn't go by it.

Also the Codex not only has how the space marine chapters should work, but also ALL of Guilliman's knowledge on tactics and warfare that he has gathered throughout the great crusade. Like how to attack such and such, how to counter thing, how to counter counter, what you need to do this job ect.


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## ragnerok70 (Mar 28, 2011)

theoretically speaking magnus and the thousand sons could have attacked the UltaMarines through the warp thus putting Guilliman and his warriors on a battle footing they could not win


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

increaso said:


> I genuinely believe that no legion could beat the Ultramarines, *with equal numbers*. I would go as far as to say some legions could not beat the Ultramarines with greater numbers, I am talking during the Heresy only and I am not Matt Ward.


 
That is probably the most absurd thing i've read on Heresy since Lux first started warbling on about Ferrus Manus, Night Haunter and their paper mache heads.


I'm struggling to think of any legion the Ultramarines could actually beat with equal numbers, seriously.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

revan4559 said:


> What you need to remember is that the Codex Astartes was written after the heresy so if the Heresy never happened then the Ultramarine's wouldn't go by it.
> 
> Also the Codex not only has how the space marine chapters should work, but also ALL of Guilliman's knowledge on tactics and warfare that he has gathered throughout the great crusade. Like how to attack such and such, how to counter thing, how to counter counter, what you need to do this job ect.


Sorry to quoted poster - it was simply the last relevant post to the issue.

Rules of Engagement [Do not click spoiler tag unless you want to story ruined]

This is not with the book in front of me so some very minor details might be wrong.





The story takes place very shortly after Calth.

One of Guilliman's Captains is conducting various engagements (later revealed to be simulations). The Captain follows these guidelines set by Guilliman and cannot see how the prescribed strategy will succeed, but it's like 'in x scenario, do y'. In the first couple of battles (one against a loyalist force, which shows how prepared Guilliman was) the UM fight in what is basically a prelude to Chapter arrangement and by adhering strictly to the guidelines they win.

In a later simulation (not known to the reader at the time) the Captain adhered to the guidelines and gets WTFpwned by Horus and his legion.

It is revealed that it was all a simulation and the Captain says to Guilliman, 'oh noes! Horus is too strong, the guidelines ain't working brah' and Guilliman says, 'I be callin' these guidelines the Codex Astartes, and they shouldn't be followed to the letter dog!'. They then hug.

- Guilliman anticipated fighting forces that he was allied with during the Heresy
- Guilliman prescribed a system that worked in most scenarios and even set rule no 1 as 'don't follow these rules all the time'




I am far from saying that UM are the best and anyone who says otherwise in wrong. 

-The Wolves are the Emperor's legion killers
-The Thousand Sons were arguably unbeatable when unrestrained
- Horus is the biggest, baddest mo fo
- The Lion was known for tactical prowess
- A & O kept multiple Legions occupied during the HH
- and so on

However, I feel that UM (again, in a non-Matt Ward way) were unbeatable in an even numbers fight during the heresy. Against the like of Angron's legion I think Guilliman could have handled a larger force.

I even have thoughts that if Chaos had not mingled with the Word Bearers, and the HH had never happened, it would have been very likely that Guilliman would have been the first to rebel against the Emperor and he would have done a good job of it, but that is for another time.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. I'm certain that in an even sized fight the likes of the Blood Angels, Vlka Fenryka, Luna Wolves, Alpha Legion, Dark Angels or Imperial Fists could easily defeat the Ultramarines, and with more numbers they would likely massacre them.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the DA could have them (before the Fall obviously...) due to superior tactics and the Deathwing raping the UM command structure. Failing that, any non-conventional legion e.g. Alpha legion, Night Lords or Raven Guard would have handed them their arses on a silver plate.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Sorry for asking but I can't find where "Rules of Engagement" is published. Is it in one of the books of short stories?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

It's in the Age of Darkness book - out in May. A good all rounder and no-brainer for HH fans.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

increaso said:


> However, I feel that UM (again, in a non-Matt Ward way) were unbeatable in an even numbers fight during the heresy. Against the like of Angron's legion I think Guilliman could have handled a larger force.


I think that if the World Eaters managed to close with the Ultramarines and engage them in Hand-to-hand then the Smurfs would be pretty much pooched. Getting up close would be a challenge, but the WE are far from the mindless charging loonies everyone seems to think they are (I hope, I really, really hope this comes out when they get a HH novel).


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> imo simply because they religously adhere to their codex for strategies which probably could be found in an imperium public library, they are not tactically sound at all and quite predictable/easy to counter.


Hardly, if the Ultramarines where that easy to beat then they would not have had the victory record that they have.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

I don't really understand the Ultramarines. I'm just hoping they aren't the poster boys of the Imperium they are depicted to be. That shits stupid and unrealistic. 

Seriously how fucking stupid does this sound. From all the legions numbering around less than a hundred thousand the Ultramarines are just fricken awesome. They have 250,000 astartes, and a whole system, and they own every other legion because they just do, and they're baby blue, and they create characters that defy the laws of physics. 

I bet a Space Wolf would tear the heads off of ten Ultrafags before falling into the dust.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

increaso said:


> It's in the Age of Darkness book - out in May. A good all rounder and no-brainer for HH fans.


Ahh cool, I've got that on order for when it comes out


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> I bet a Space Wolf would tear the heads off of ten Ultrafags before falling into the dust.


Doubtful. We have a Space Wolf engage in CQC with an Ultramarine in Battle of the Abyss and lose. There is nothing suggesting that Space Wolves are worth at least ten other Astartes, not even the most favorable Space Wolf fluff in Prospero Burns suggests that.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

A drunken Wolf who has already been going at it for some time, who is not fighting to the death and thus his full potential. Oh and its Battle for the Abyss. No one should ever use the book as an example of anything imo.

I firmly believe a thousand Wolves vs a thousand Ultramarines or any arbitary number would smash them to the ground before they could say Matt Ward.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> A drunken Wolf who has already been going at it for some time, who is not fighting to the death and thus his full potential.


And said Ultramarine was holding back as well the entire time.



Angel of Blood said:


> Oh and its Battle for the Abyss. No one should ever use the book as an example of anything imo.


That's your opinion then. However I take everything in the Heresy series into consideration, even if I did not enjoy the book itself.

I see no reason why an Ultramarine cannot match a Space Wolf in terms of combat or war. Nor have I seen anything suggesting that a single Space Wolf is worth ten Ultramarines.

No Legion or Astartes is so much better than another that they would devastate a similar number of Astartes in a one-sided fight.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Dark Angels, Luna Wolves, Alpha Legion and maybe Raven Gaurd.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I disagree. I would argue that astartes that have had some differences in their geneseeds like the Wolves and Thousand Sons, have an edge against other astartes. That slight "flaw" or whatever you'd like to call it almost considers them a different from the rest of the Astartes Bretheren. 




I wouldn't be surprised if the mutation in their geneseed caused them to be as such. "There are no wolves on Fenris" because the mutation in the geneseed is so strong that the failed astartes or those fellas. Plus after _Prospero Burns_, I think its safe to say it was these "genetic freaks" were what Horus was afraid of. Compared to the great legions of the Dark Angels, and Ultramarines. Legions that would have normally had more attention.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I disagree. I would argue that astartes that have had some differences in their geneseeds like the Wolves and Thousand Sons, have an edge against other astartes. That slight "flaw" or whatever you'd like to call it almost considers them a different from the rest of the Astartes Bretheren.


I would give you the Thousand Sons psychic powers, but nothing in the Space Wolf geneseed places them so far above the Ultramarines that they would curbstomp them in a battle of even numbers like Angel seems to imply.

They get some enhanced senses and the Wulfen curse a double-edged sword at best in warfare. Otherwise I don't see how they are appricably greater than the Ultramarines.

If a 1000 Wolves faced off against a 1000 Ultramarines it would defnitely be a very close match, regardless of who won.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would agree the closeness would be something they would counter during the beginning of the battle. As both sides are manoevering the battlefield. But once both lines engaged, I believe the Ultramarines would be sushi. Like most close combat fighting, everything being thrown out the door as the Ultramarines are confused with what to do now that their combat doctrine has no use. That and the fact that they are not facing any regular astartes, but almost animalistic combat instinct and strength. 

The thing with the wolves is that they have a speed to them that they use against their enemies, basically giving no time for their enemy to think.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Even Russ acknowledges that the Space Wolves have the edge because they are often perceived as raving nutters. Of course, they also have the Canis Helix blessing/curse, which can be viewed as an advantage (even when they do go all crazy).

How well they would fare against heresy era Ultramarines would depend on how much Guilliman takes into account their cunning.

@ CKCrawford



I would argue that the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons were taken out-of-action, because they knew the most about chaos/warp (though in very different ways). I am not sure whether Horus 'feared' them and to what extent he had any role in their confrontation or whether it was all chaos's work 


I am sort of warming to the view that the right legion at Calth could have severly beaten the UM (it seems that he took a good licking), but once Guilliman was aware of what was going on with the Heresy and once he was on the defensive he would have been very difficult to beat.

Age of Darkness Spoilers



I really want to discuss this book in detail, but don't want to ruin it. However, there is significant inference from no less than 3 stories that the Ultramarines were forming their own anti-Horus powerbase/faction that would have been the opposition to Horus had he won at Terra. I am confident that Guilliman is some sort of bad ass, but I digress


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Space Wolves were clearly the Emperors go-to Legion when another Legion needed taking care of. The chaos gods feared the might of the Wolves so much that they spent decades, centuries even, carefully manipulating events to destroy them and remove them from the Heresy entirely. No such effort was made to take out the Ultramarines, the gods left it to Horus to deal with them, and even then simpy keeping them far away and attacking them with the grossly outnumbered Word Bearers would be sufficent. 

That alone speaks volumes for how dangerous the Wolves are. Perceived as enough of a threat to spend an immense amount of time engineering their total destruction. The Ultramarines were merely kept to one side.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I would agree the closeness would be something they would counter during the beginning of the battle. As both sides are manoevering the battlefield. But once both lines engaged, I believe the Ultramarines would be sushi. Like most close combat fighting, everything being thrown out the door as the Ultramarines are confused with what to do now that their combat doctrine has no use. That and the fact that they are not facing any regular astartes, but almost animalistic combat instinct and strength.


Why exactly would they be useless in close quarters? Ultramarines have faced a vareity of bestial eneimes and berserk Astartes (If we are taking Post-Heresy into account) The Ultramarines are certainly no slouches at close quarters. If Guilliman has observed the combat doctrine of every fighting force in the Imperium the he logically should be prepared to face the Wolves in close quarters. Guilliman and his men arn't mindless drones who are disrupted by the slighest change in the battle plan.

If we are talking Pre-Heresy then Guilliman probably would have observed them in action and formulated plans to defeat them. Post-Heresy enemies like that have been faced before by the Ultramarines and they have adapted to respond. The Wolves have never been depicted as so overwhelmingly good at CQC that they can curbstomp every other Legion with little loss.

Even in Prospero Burns we have a Thousand Son defeating Two-blade in close quarters. Two-blade would have died if Hawser had not helped. If a Thousand Son can defeat someone as skilled as Two-blade in CQC then there is a good chance there would be an Ultramarine who can do that. My point is that CQc is not an auto-win for the Wolves.

But when I was using the term ''close match'' I was not referring to CQC. I was referring that the outcome would be hard to decide.



increaso said:


> Even Russ acknowledges that the Space Wolves have the edge because they are often perceived as raving nutters.


Russ would obviously acknowlege _his_ Legion to be the best at it. I'm sure other Primarchs would disagree on whose the best.



Angel of Blood said:


> The Space Wolves were clearly the Emperors go-to Legion when another Legion needed taking care of. The chaos gods feared the might of the Wolves so much that they spent decades, centuries even, carefully manipulating events to destroy them and remove them from the Heresy entirely. No such effort was made to take out the Ultramarines, the gods left it to Horus to deal with them, and even then simpy keeping them far away and attacking them with the grossly outnumbered Word Bearers would be sufficent.


Probably, because the Ultramarines would be harder to take out than the Space Wolves, with a much bigger recruitment base and empire to draw from, as with larger numbers.

Plus the whole ''legion-killer'' thing is rather ambiguous in my opinion. The Wolves certainly think that. Haweser may think that. But outside them we have had no confirmation on that. I see it as the Wolves opinion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Wolves were used to safeguard Nikea in the event the Thousand Sons should misbehave, they were the ones sent to sanction the Thousand Sons, and it is very, very heavily implied that they were the ones used to sanction at least one of the unknown legions. Thats three instances of the Wolves being used over all the other Legions to counter another Legion, this isn't the opinion of themselves of Hawser, this is the Emperor choosing to use them above all others.

The size of the Utramarines if anything should have led the gods to concentrate on removing them from the equation aswell, size is irrelevant, they had been planning the demise of the Wolves for decades or even centuries, why couldn't didn't they do the same for the Ultramarines? Surely if they were as much a threat to their plans as the Wolves were they would have taken bigger steps to remove them from play. But again, they didn't, they delegated that task to Horus instead.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

To be honest I've never liked the whole Space Wolves _own any other legion bit_ due to their ferociousness. I feel like it intrudes too much on the World Eaters territory, the latter described as being unstoppable as their name suggests and given their legion/Primarch's gladiator history. 

It feels as though due to the popularity of the SW, they've taken on this niche role over the years that the World Eaters in my opinion should of had pre-heresy but I can see how their fall to Chaos would sort of go against their position as the Emperor's Astartes killers. But then again this could be worked out, the Wolves filling this role post-Heresy or whatever.

The same applies to the Blood Angels and their whole hand to hand/melee frenzy they get into once their black rage/red thirst settles in. 

I mean ok they have wolf DNA in them but I don't see why they have to be depicted the way they currently are as opposed to being maybe (top of my head) a legion with legendary stamina given their icy homeworld or something more creative? I've always felt the World Eaters hands down should be labeled as the go-to berserker/melee legion for missions that require absolute brute force or killing other Astartes, otherwise they really feel like a redundant, useless Legion as they have felt so far again in my view.

And while I like Abnett's decision to make them less comical and his more serious depiction, still I would imagine a legion tasked with doing anything the Emperor asks of them including wiping out fellow legions pre-Heresy, when the idea of Astartes fighting one another wasn't even believable, they would be more morbid, more... I don't know depressed as opposed to laughing when a limb gets torn to pieces or jugging down Astartes grade alcohol in their spare time. Meh. 

It's just hard to believe the Emperor would task such a superstitious, sometimes overly jovial, and potentially unstable legion with what we have seen so far simply because of their Wolf DNA as opposed to another more serious (can't think of a better word atm) legion like maybe the DA/DG/BA ?


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

I would have to give this to the Alpha Legion. When going up against a force that is that much larger then yourself, you have to look at subverting it's resources. Take into account the unreliability of intersteller communications and you have a playground for a legion that focuses on covert ops.

This would start with placing the required forces onto the UM worlds, wether they actually be in the UMs or as the commanders of the IG forces defending key UM locations. Assist unallied Chaos forces with gaining a foot hold on planets that would force the UMs to respond. Cause general havok around they so they would be required to call in reinforcements from their second founding chapters, and put some of your own men with those reinforcements.

You cannot look at this as a normal battle, in that case the UMs will win. Though we only have one example of the UMs fighting the Legion, and the Legion won that conflict. Numbers would prevail in this case, so the Legion would have to focus on disrupting communications and keeping the UMs jumping at ghosts while they whittle them down at key locations and use the IG to take over their planets.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Wolves were used to safeguard Nikea in the event the Thousand Sons should misbehave, they were the ones sent to sanction the Thousand Sons, and it is very, very heavily implied that they were the ones used to sanction at least one of the unknown legions. Thats three instances of the Wolves being used over all the other Legions to counter another Legion, this isn't the opinion of themselves of Hawser, this is the Emperor choosing to use them above all others.


No, the Word Bearers where implied to have been ordered to assit as well in A First Heretic. Russ being chosen at Nikea doesn't really mean much when we know about Russ and Magnus's rivalry.



Angel of Blood said:


> The size of the Utramarines if anything should have led the gods to concentrate on removing them from the equation aswell, size is irrelevant, .


Size of relevant. the Ultramairnes are big enough that you can't simply cripple them in one great battle.



Angel of Blood said:


> they had been planning the demise of the Wolves for decades or even centuries, why couldn't didn't they do the same for the Ultramarines? Surely if they were as much a threat to their plans as the Wolves were they would have taken bigger steps to remove them from play. But again, they didn't, they delegated that task to Horus instead.


Or they could't have had, or Horus was doing their bidding all along.

But the daemon claims that only the Wolves could prove to be a decent military threat to Chaos. This is obviously wrong as the Heresy proved afterwards.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Gree said:


> Even in Prospero Burns we have a Thousand Son defeating Two-blade in close quarters. Two-blade would have died if Hawser had not helped. If a Thousand Son can defeat someone as skilled as Two-blade in CQC then there is a good chance there would be an Ultramarine who can do that. My point is that CQc is not an auto-win for the Wolves.


I dont know if u know, but MANY Psykers have abilities or powers that effect the react time, strength, speed, reflexes, and even skills of a squad or themselves. So a Psyker with a specialty toward these (and many Librarians do have these) can become a match for the likes of Two Blade. I owuld gaurantee out of the hundred Librarians the UMs might of have only 1/5 would have this. So I would say SWs still have a advantage.



Gree said:


> Russ would obviously acknowlege _his_ Legion to be the best at it. I'm sure other Primarchs would disagree on whose the best.


There was not one Legion who doubted Russ being badass.



Gree said:


> Probably, because the Ultramarines would be harder to take out than the Space Wolves, with a much bigger recruitment base and empire to draw from, as with larger numbers.


So what your saying is that if Chaos implemented all the crap needed to a hundred years BEFORE Guilliman was found, thus a hundred years BEFORE UMs had the #s, and again a Hundred Years BEFORE the large Empire was made, that Chaos couldnt do it beacuase... of .. the large recruitment... and empire??? Does anyone else see where this logic fails?



Gree said:


> Plus the whole ''legion-killer'' thing is rather ambiguous in my opinion. The Wolves certainly think that. Haweser may think that. But outside them we have had no confirmation on that. I see it as the Wolves opinion.


Well I think the whole Guilliman Codex Astartes is the best way for ALL SMs as silly and self boasting, so back at ya.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I dont know if u know, but MANY Psykers have abilities or powers that effect the react time, strength, speed, reflexes, and even skills of a squad or themselves. So a Psyker with a specialty toward these (and many Librarians do have these) can become a match for the likes of Two Blade.


That was after the Sisters where deployed in Haweser's acccount. So no.



Warlock in Training said:


> So I would say SWs still have a advantage.


No, you don't have any proof of that.



Warlock in Training said:


> There was not one Legion who doubted Russ being badass.


Again, no proof. It's not a question of Russ being badass or not, but of other Primarchs thinking the Space Wolves to be superior to their own, which I very much doubt for most of them.



Warlock in Training said:


> So what your saying is that if Chaos implemented all the crap needed to a hundred years BEFORE Guilliman was found, thus a hundred years BEFORE UMs had the #s, and again a Hundred Years BEFORE the large Empire was made, that Chaos couldnt do it beacuase... of .. the large recruitment... and empire??? Does anyone else see where this logic fails?


No, you don't know how the warp works or how the Chaos Gods work. the entire summary of the Chaos plot to destroy the Space Wolves was from the word of a daemon.

Said daemon's words are not the end all absolute of things.



Warlock in Training said:


> Well I think the whole Guilliman Codex Astartes is the best way for ALL SMs as silly and self boasting, so back at ya.


That's nice. However I never supported such an opinion so I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I was pointing out how the Wolves opinion of their own abilities should not matter when we are looking for objective fact.

I never said the Codex Astartes was the best way to fight. That's not relevant to the debate at all. I am instead discussing how effective Guilliman's methods would be in a hypothetical situation, not if they where the end all to everything.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Gree said:


> That was after the Sisters where deployed in Haweser's acccount. So no.


Yet many TS were still able to use their powers after they deployed and the SoS dont have a range that covers more than 50 ft as their range didnt affect the Daemon that attack Hawser till they were VERY close. So nice try there.



Gree said:


> No, you don't have any proof of that.


Wheres your proof they're not?



Gree said:


> Again, no proof. It's not a question of Russ being badass or not, but of other Primarchs thinking the Space Wolves to be superior to their own, which I very much doubt for most of them.


The sad fact is most of the Primarchs said Russ Legion is by far the fiercest, just as alot agreed Fulgrims was perfect, Vulkans was good at making shit, Angrons was Psyko, Ect. You cant take that away.



Gree said:


> No, you don't know how the warp works or how the Chaos Gods work. the entire summary of the Chaos plot to destroy the Space Wolves was from the word of a daemon.


I actually do since I have most of the Codexes and BL books based around the Warp and its Champions, and its not only possible but HAPPENS. Also by your statment then Hawser entire life was totally Magnus plan? No wait it wasnt, so whos been maipulating Hawser and have him encounter, discover, and uncover all the tidbits of the futur battle between SWs and TSs? Luck? Chance? The fact is his life and what he did was the proof.



Gree said:


> Said daemon's words are not the end all absolute of things.


Ofcourse not, Daemons words are never fully true, but they always have a ring of truth. BL Novel Daemon World.



Gree said:


> That's nice. However I never supported such an opinion so I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I was pointing out how the Wolves opinion of their own abilities should not matter when we are looking for objective fact.
> 
> I never said the Codex Astartes was the best way to fight. That's not relevant to the debate at all. I am instead discussing how effective Guilliman's methods would be in a hypothetical situation, not if they where the end all to everything.


U pointed out how u felt about the SW claim and I fired back at ya Guillimans claim which u seem to be defending since thats what this thread is about.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yet many TS were still able to use their powers after they deployed and the SoS dont have a range that covers more than 50 ft as their range didnt affect the Daemon that attack Hawser till they were VERY close.


No, where are those powers described after the Sisters are deployed? I can find no refrence to that in the book. Nor can I find any reference to sorcery being used in the Two-blade fight. And how do you know that Sisters wheren't fighting nearby?

Various weapons are described on pg.417 after the Sisters are deployed, but no weapons. The Thousand Sons chooses to engage in CQC, an unsual action for Astartes of that Legion, and is described as using a blade and a pistol. No sorcery at all is mentioned.



Warlock in Training said:


> Wheres your proof they're not?


The fact that we've seen them multiple times lost to other Astartes. The fact that we've seen them not utterly dominate close combat so badly as to make it a curbstomp.



Warlock in Training said:


> The sad fact is most of the Primarchs said Russ Legion is by far the fiercest, just as alot agreed Fulgrims was perfect, Vulkans was good at making shit, Angrons was Psyko, Ect. You cant take that away.


Where is this stated? Can you give me a quote?

The closest thing I can recall was Torgaddon making a joke about those things. In any case fiercest does not equal an automatic win in CQC.



Warlock in Training said:


> I actually do since I have most of the Codexes and BL books based around the Warp and its Champions, and its not only possible but HAPPENS..


No, the Chaos Gods are fickle, things happened to whim.




Warlock in Training said:


> Also by your statment then Hawser entire life was totally Magnus plan? No wait it wasnt, so whos been maipulating Hawser and have him encounter, discover, and uncover all the tidbits of the futur battle between SWs and TSs? Luck? Chance? The fact is his life and what he did was the proof.


the daemon may have been right about some things, but given that the daemon's own words where contridicted later on in the Heresy, i say he was mixing truths with lies.

For example he claimed that the Wolves where the only Legion that could prove to be a viable military threat. Obviously the actions of the other Legions proved him wrong during the Heresy.



Warlock in Training said:


> U pointed out how u felt about the SW claim and I fired back at ya Guillimans claim which u seem to be deafending since thats what this thread is about.


No, read the OP. This thread is not about wheter the Codex Astartes is best or not. It's which Legion could have defeated the Ultramarines at a full scale war. Those are two different things.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> To be honest I've never liked the whole Space Wolves _own any other legion bit_ due to their ferociousness. I feel like it intrudes too much on the World Eaters territory, the latter described as being unstoppable as their name suggests and given their legion/Primarch's gladiator history.
> 
> It feels as though due to the popularity of the SW, they've taken on this niche role over the years that the World Eaters in my opinion should of had pre-heresy but I can see how their fall to Chaos would sort of go against their position as the Emperor's Astartes killers. But then again this could be worked out, the Wolves filling this role post-Heresy or whatever.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, they definitely do seem like the type. But I imagine the reason why the aren't is that they are so predictable. The wolves have more tactic with their brutality. Where as the World Eaters are more one dimensional.



> For example he claimed that the Wolves where the only Legion that could prove to be a viable military threat. Obviously the actions of the other Legions proved him wrong during the Heresy.


This is true, though we don't specifically know why yet. And besides that, if you really think about it, all Horus really needed to do was kill the Emperor, and boom he would have had an unlimited army coming out of the broken Imperial Webway, with Malcador's ashes being trampled by unlimited armies of daemons. And accordingly, something definitely happened way beyond the calls of those astartes defending Terra. Horus did indeed take care of those legions he had to. 

I think what you really had was essentially Horus' legions having insufficient man power to deal with the Ultramarines. Especially having purged half of the men in almost every legion. And those legions that were full weren't at the battle of Terra.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> There was not one Legion who doubted Russ being badass.


*Angron disagrees.* :threaten: 
(OMFG, is that a human organ he's holding?!?! ------>)










*Angron agree's he is the ONLY badass.* :biggrin:


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

how many does each legion have?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Where do the Word Bearers imply they were used aswell to sanction the other legions? Fact is the Wolves were still used every time another Legion needed sanctioning. Why would their rivalry with the Sons make them picked for Nikea, if anything thats a disadvantage as they could let their rivalry cloud their judgement. Then they of all the legions were once again picked to destroy the Thousand Sons. 

The World Eaters wouldn't be used as they just aren't as tactically astute as the Wolves, they are quite predictable and can't be restrained. The Wolves can be unleashed but will always obey their orders and stop when ordered to. You don't just need a insanely fierce legion to take on another. They need to be fierce, smart, obidient and cunning. All of which the Wolves are.

Again the Ultramarines size shouldn't have stopped the Gods from trying to take them out the game, it makes no sense. Surely if they can manage to manipulate Lorgar and Magnus from birth, plan Horus fall, the Wolves destruction and myriad of other feats, then they could engineer the fall of the Ultramarines aswell, at least something more significant than "Let Horus handle them"


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The World Eaters need to be reinvented in a way similar to Abnett's Vlka Fenryka where we learn they aren't the mindless savages we're thought to believe, etc. etc. 

There is a lot of neglect toward certain Primarchs, most notably Angron, Ferrus Manus and Perturabo and their corresponding legions. I don't see why, other than due to their popularity, we get novel after novel about the SW, UM and Imperial Fists and not the ones I've mentioned.

There is so much potential in regards to the neglected Primarchs, I think GW needs to pressure its writers to focus less on successor chapters and to shed some more light on the founding legions pre-heresy that haven't had their time in the spotlight.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Where do the Word Bearers imply they were used aswell to sanction the other legions?


I believe it comes up when Lorgar mourns for one of those fallen brothers and it's implied he was part of the Legions used.



Angel of Blood said:


> ? Fact is the Wolves were still used every time another Legion needed sanctioning.


Like when the Night Lords blew up Nostramo and the World Eaters ignored the Emperor's orders?



Angel of Blood said:


> Why would their rivalry with the Sons make them picked for Nikea, if anything thats a disadvantage as they could let their rivalry cloud their judgement.


No, they of all Legions would have less reservations about destroying the Sons.



Angel of Blood said:


> The World Eaters wouldn't be used as they just aren't as tactically astute as the Wolves, they are quite predictable and can't be restrained. The Wolves can be unleashed but will always obey their orders and stop when ordered to. You don't just need a insanely fierce legion to take on another. They need to be fierce, smart, obidient and cunning. All of which the Wolves are.


I thought the entire point of Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons was once you unleash the Wolves you don't call them back? One of the Thousand Sons characters states that and one of the Space Wolf Rune Priests says something to that effect as well in Prospero Burns.

Of course the Wolves as an Executioner Legion, right or wrong, does not mean they auto-win against any other Legion. That does not mean they are the best Legion or the toughest at all. Just that they are ruthless enough for a certain task.



Angel of Blood said:


> Again the Ultramarines size shouldn't have stopped the Gods from trying to take them out the game, it makes no sense. Surely if they can manage to manipulate Lorgar and Magnus from birth, plan Horus fall, the Wolves destruction and myriad of other feats, then they could engineer the fall of the Ultramarines aswell, at least something more significant than "Let Horus handle them"


Why not let Horus handle them?

That or the Chaos Godss where _wrong_. The daemon stated that only the Wolves could pose a viable military threat to Horus so that's why they had to be eliminated. That is clearly wrong as the Heresy showed.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Clearly the SW's would loose as they don't wear helmets, one good head shot from a bolter would put them down easily...

It's nearly impossible to say, I really wouldn't pick the Wolves as being able to outmanouevre the UM's to be in a fair fight where it would count. I would imagine Papa Smurf ambushing, feinted flights, counter attacks, flank and rear attacks. In a stand up fight I reckon the Wolves would have a good chance of winning due to their ferocity. Everybody knows that Horus has one tactic, go for the head so I wouldn't put him down either. I would pick the Alpha's as their misdirection would unpick the UM's, split them up and then be able to take them out peicemeal.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> I believe it comes up when Lorgar mourns for one of those fallen brothers and it's implied he was part of the Legions used..


Looking through it, theres no such implication.



Gree said:


> Like when the Night Lords blew up Nostramo and the World Eaters ignored the Emperor's orders?.


The Night Lords and World Eaters were not sanctioned though. The Emperor did not order their destruction. The Wolves won't just go and sanction a legion without orders to do so.



Gree said:


> No, they of all Legions would have less reservations about destroying the Sons.


A myriad of other legions would have no doubt attacked the Thousand Sons without hesitation if they were ordered to. The Death Guard being a prime example, i have little doubt that the Night Lords of World Eaters would hesistate for a second either. Guilliman aswell for that matter. Yet the Wolves were picked amongst all of them, again.



Gree said:


> I thought the entire point of Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons was once you unleash the Wolves you don't call them back? One of the Thousand Sons characters states that and one of the Space Wolf Rune Priests says something to that effect as well in Prospero Burns.


The Wolves can still be controlled and follow orders, they are a controlled missile, a smart bomb if you will. The World Eaters are uncontrolable and undisciplined.



Gree said:


> Of course the Wolves as an Executioner Legion, right or wrong, does not mean they auto-win against any other Legion. That does not mean they are the best Legion or the toughest at all. Just that they are ruthless enough for a certain task.


No it doesn't, but im still fairly confident the Wolves would be one of the legions able to beat the Ultramarines in a battle with the same sized forces. Certainly able to beat them with more numbers.



Gree said:


> Why not let Horus handle them?
> 
> That or the Chaos Godss where _wrong_. The daemon stated that only the Wolves could pose a viable military threat to Horus so that's why they had to be eliminated. That is clearly wrong as the Heresy showed.


Like i said, the Ultramarines were clearly not deemed enough of a threat by the gods. Wrong or not, thats the matter of it. And for the most part they were right. The Ultramarines only needed to be kept at a distance and attacked by the Word Bearers to completely negate any effect they could have on the Heresy. By comparison, the likes of the Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guards total destruction was arranged.



Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Everybody knows that Horus has one tactic, go for the head so I wouldn't put him down either. I would pick the Alpha's as their misdirection would unpick the UM's, split them up and then be able to take them out peicemeal.


Well thats not Horus only tactic, just his prefered one, and as proven by his victory tally, it works very well. But Horus is still more than smart enough to use other tactics than just the speartip.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Looking through it, theres no such implication.


Then that's your opinion I'm afriad.



Angel of Blood said:


> .
> The Night Lords and World Eaters were not sanctioned though. The Emperor did not order their destruction. The Wolves won't just go and sanction a legion without orders to do so.


Sanction doesn't automatically mean destruction. The Ultramairnes performing a sanction on the Word Bearers comes to mind.



Angel of Blood said:


> A myriad of other legions would have no doubt attacked the Thousand Sons without hesitation if they were ordered to. The Death Guard being a prime example, i have little doubt that the Night Lords of World Eaters would hesistate for a second either. Guilliman aswell for that matter. Yet the Wolves were picked amongst all of them, again.


We don't know where those Legions where at the time or what they where doing, so you can't really confirm anything.




Angel of Blood said:


> The Wolves can still be controlled and follow orders, they are a controlled missile, a smart bomb if you will. The World Eaters are uncontrolable and undisciplined.


So far yes, but I have a feeling the World Eaters will get explored more than such a sterotype.



Angel of Blood said:


> No it doesn't, but im still fairly confident the Wolves would be one of the legions able to beat the Ultramarines in a battle with the same sized forces. Certainly able to beat them with more numbers.


The Wolves have shown nothing one-on-one that has them be superior to the Ultramarines.



Angel of Blood said:


> Like i said, the Ultramarines were clearly not deemed enough of a threat by the gods. Wrong or not, thats the matter of it.


No, ''deemed'' does not equal the actual threat that a Legion would posses.

The Chaos Gods where clearly wrong in this instance in estimating the abiltites of the other Legions. Using them as a refrence is a bad idea.



Angel of Blood said:


> The Ultramarines only needed to be kept at a distance and attacked by the Word Bearers to completely negate any effect they could have on the Heresy.


No, Collected Visions notes that Horus was most worried about the Ultramarines arriving at the seige of Terra, then the Dark Angels and Wolves after that. The Ultramarines where in fact noted to be hours away in Collected Visons and one of the key factors that had Hrous drop his shields according to that.



Angel of Blood said:


> By comparison, the likes of the Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guards total destruction was arranged.


The Blood Angels where not totally destroyed, nor where the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard. If you are referring to an attempt to totally destroy them then I would include the Word Bearers attack on the Ultramarines Legion as an example of that.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> Then that's your opinion I'm afriad.


I've literally just read it, quote me the passage that implies they took part in their destruction. Pg.162. I can find nothing that implies they took part in it.



Gree said:


> Sanction doesn't automatically mean destruction. The Ultramairnes performing a sanction on the Word Bearers comes to mind.


Granted, but you know what i meant when is aid sanction. Just to be completely clear. The Wolves were used to destroy at least one of the unkown legions, were used to potentially destroy the Sons at Nikea and then were used to destroy the Sons at Prospero. No other Legion thus far have been confirmed to do the same.



Gree said:


> We don't know where those Legions where at the time or what they where doing, so you can't really confirm anything.


Well Mortarion was at Nikea, stands to reason his Legion would have been with him. I find it hard to believe if three companies of Wolves could be pulled from the crusade to safeguard the Emperor, then none of the other legions could be, te Death Guard were obviously available. 




Gree said:


> The Wolves have shown nothing one-on-one that has them be superior to the Ultramarines.


Well thats your opinion.



Gree said:


> No, ''deemed'' does not equal the actual threat that a Legion would posses.
> 
> The Chaos Gods where clearly wrong in this instance in estimating the abiltites of the other Legions. Using them as a refrence is a bad idea.


Fact is there still has to be a reason the gods feared the Wolves more than the Ultramarines.



Gree said:


> No, Collected Visions notes that Horus was most worried about the Ultramarines arriving at the seige of Terra, then the Dark Angels and Wolves after that. The Ultramarines where in fact noted to be hours away in Collected Visons and one of the key factors that had Hrous drop his shields according to that.


Well actually in the other versions of the Siege the Ultramarines weren't even close to Terra, it was just the Dark Angels and Wolves. And even going by Collected Visions, the Wolves are still part of the inbound fleet, as are the Dark Angels.



Gree said:


> The Blood Angels where not totally destroyed, nor where the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard. If you are referring to an attempt to totally destroy them then I would include the Word Bearers attack on the Ultramarines Legion as an example of that.


Fair point, will give you that. Although again, that still only shows the gods let Horus take care of those legions, whilst actively taking a large role and considerable time in elimanting the Sons and Wolves.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well thats not Horus only tactic, just his prefered one, and as proven by his victory tally, it works very well. But Horus is still more than smart enough to use other tactics than just the speartip.


Oh right cool, where else does it talk about his other tactics as it does seem a little weird, him being the Warmaster and everything.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Numbers mean shit when 1 guy can controle the Nerve Endings of your company with but a thought. Not to mention controling squads Warmachine Servitors with your mind helps alot too. I think TS going all out with what they have will negate the UM #s.
> 
> My 2 cents.


I really like the TS, but I think the UM's numerical superiority can't be nullified even by the TS's psychic might 

if 1 warp-powered TS sorcerer = 10 average joe UM
what if there are 20 UM for every TS? at some point numbers would still matter
the TS were also one of the smallest legions (if not the smallest) and the UM were the largest
I believe the UM numbered 250,000 and the TS numbered 10,000 (10% survived the Battle of Prospero, roughly a thousand), so that's a 25:1 ratio. In addition, not all UM's were average joes, and not all TS were high-level sorcerers. 

finally, TS tend to blow up when they really exert their warp powers, and I think their powers would really be strained and stretched thin by the UM's massive advantage in numbers, resources etc. 

to me there is no doubt that the TS were, man for man, the most potent SM, but even with their psychic might, their numbers were too few to take on Guilliman's mammoth legion, which had the resources of the entire Ultramar sub-sector at its disposal


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I've literally just read it, quote me the passage that implies they took part in their destruction. Pg.162. I can find nothing that implies they took part in it.


I will, however at this point I don't have A First Heretic on me, I will once I get the book.



Angel of Blood said:


> Granted, but you know what i meant when is aid sanction. Just to be completely clear. The Wolves were used to destroy at least one of the unkown legions, were used to potentially destroy the Sons at Nikea and then were used to destroy the Sons at Prospero. No other Legion thus far have been confirmed to do the same.


.........And? Just because they may have been used in that role does nto mean they auto-win or even have an overwhleming advantage. The one time we actually see them in action they have allies, the element of suprise and the Primarch of their target actively sabotaguing his own Legion.



Angel of Blood said:


> Well Mortarion was at Nikea, stands to reason his Legion would have been with him. I find it hard to believe if three companies of Wolves could be pulled from the crusade to safeguard the Emperor, then none of the other legions could be, te Death Guard were obviously available.


First of all, I don't believe they where there to safeguard the Emperor. That's what Custodes could do, and the Emperor could have probably subdued Magnus and his entire Legion by himself if needed.

And Legions have been spread out before. The Wolves could have simply been closer.

I actually propose that we drop the aspect of them being an Executioner Legion or not. Even if they are it does not make them better fighters, better tacticians, stronger, or faster than other Astartes. It means they are ruthless enough in order to kill other Astartes. I'll state it again, being the Executioner does not mean the Wolves are superior to other Legions or give them an auto-win.



Angel of Blood said:


> Well thats your opinion.


Which is based on reason and observed combat performance of both Legions so far. The Space Wolves have simply not demonstrated the overwhelming advantage you claim they have.

The Space Wolves are not superior to other Astartes. I don't believe any Astartes is superior to any other one-on-one in terms of skill or warfare ability.

Except perhaps the Thousand Sons, however they are an exception and their abiltites are a double-edged sword anyway.



Angel of Blood said:


> Fact is there still has to be a reason the gods feared the Wolves more than the Ultramarines.


A reason in which they where clearly blatently wrong. You can't take that the God's reasons to destroy the Wolves first as the reasons they gave to Hawser where clearly disproven during the Heresy.

Just because they have a reason does not make the reason _right_ nor does it confirm the Wolves as superior to other Legions.



Angel of Blood said:


> Well actually in the other versions of the Siege the Ultramarines weren't even close to Terra, it was just the Dark Angels and Wolves. And even going by Collected Visions, the Wolves are still part of the inbound fleet, as are the Dark Angels.


In Collected Visions Horus explicitly identifies Guilliman's Legion as the most dangerous and in one of the False Gods he states that it's all for naught if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene. Indeed he even says the Wolves are the least of his problems.

And since Collected Visions is being used as the basis for the Hrous Heresy books I would take that as a prioirty.



Angel of Blood said:


> Fair point, will give you that. Although again, that still only shows the gods let Horus take care of those legions, whilst actively taking a large role and considerable time in elimanting the Sons and Wolves.


They took an active role in doing so, however that does not mean they where _right_ in doing so, nor does that mean the Wolves where more dangerous than everybody else by a huge margin, given that we know their reasoning was clearly wrong.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I really like the TS, but I think the UM's numerical superiority can't be nullified even by the TS's psychic might
> 
> if 1 warp-powered TS sorcerer = 10 average joe UM
> what if there are 20 UM for every TS? at some point numbers would still matter
> ...


Very Fair Pint. 




Gree said:


> I will, however at this point I don't have A First Heretic on me, I will once I get the book.


Take your time Im sure its not there.



Gree said:


> ........And? Just because they may have been used in that role does nto mean they auto-win or even have an overwhleming advantage. The one time we actually see them in action they have allies, the element of suprise and the Primarch of their target actively sabotaguing his own Legion.


 Gee why is that? Oh yeah cause the TS are most dangerious Legion because Psy Marines TRUMP average Marines... like UM pride themselves being... vaniila flavore. So yeah if SWs didnt want TOTAL devastation and the Big E probaly wanted to keep them as a fighting force, then yeah something called Tatics is used. As in SoS and Custodes to make the task a sure win.



Gree said:


> First of all, I don't believe they where there to safeguard the Emperor. That's what Custodes could do, and the Emperor could have probably subdued Magnus and his entire Legion by himself if needed.


Thats why the Daemon who knew the names of the Custodes PWN them... and strangely enough he wasnt affected by SoS huge presence there either... must be a very short range. Fact checked.



Gree said:


> And Legions have been spread out before. The Wolves could have simply been closer.


Yeah I guess its possible, but its funny that Russ Legion is the that was there you know.



Gree said:


> I actually propose that we drop the aspect of them being an Executioner Legion or not. Even if they are it does not make them better fighters, better tacticians, stronger, or faster than other Astartes. It means they are ruthless enough in order to kill other Astartes. I'll state it again, being the Executioner does not mean the Wolves are superior to other Legions or give them an auto-win.


It plays a HUGE roll. Thats like saying EOD is just as regular as a SEAL. Bullshit, hes better at bombs. So if you have a Legion by Design as a Excutioner/Anti Legion then that must mean they were DESIGN to be better against the average joe shmoe SM. How does this simple aspect not get thru to u, or if u truly wish to completly ignore it. Which is fine since its debate.



Gree said:


> Which is based on reason and observed combat performance of both Legions so far. The Space Wolves have simply not demonstrated the overwhelming advantage you claim they have.


I guess the the added Genes and understannding of the Warp really does make them Average to the majority Legions that dont have either.



Gree said:


> The Space Wolves are not superior to other Astartes. I don't believe any Astartes is superior to any other one-on-one in terms of skill or warfare ability.


Sure they are otherwise World Eaters would be more like the UMs, or the IF would be tasked with Espionage like the AL, or hell Slalamanders will massacre innocent people to instill fear like the NL do. Seriously! Each Legions IS superior to another in someway or area. UM are superior the rest of the Legions in Quanity not Quality.



Gree said:


> Except perhaps the Thousand Sons, however they are an exception and their abiltites are a double-edged sword anyway.


Yes any strength can be a weakness, thats common sense and universal balance.



Gree said:


> A reason in which they where clearly blatently wrong. You can't take that the God's reasons to destroy the Wolves first as the reasons they gave to Hawser where clearly disproven during the Heresy.


Wow your really nuking this arnt you. 1) The Chaos Gods were going to win regardless, The Cabal forsaw that nonsense, it was how long they would rule. 2) Horus succeded in taking the Emp out, and now the Imperium is condemn to a slow death. 3) Just cause the Chaos Gods say this will be done doesnt mean kinks are not thrown in their plans, ther forsaw SW/TS as the biggest threats cause they were the Badess.
Seriously the biggest flaw to your logic is it seems u are under the Impression that the UMs were a THREAT to the plans and they were not. What did they do that was so plot turning in the HH? Name one thing.



Gree said:


> Just because they have a reason does not make the reason _right_ nor does it confirm the Wolves as superior to other Legions.


Plenty of reason and good argument are presented, you just dont want to hear it. 



Gree said:


> In Collected Visions Horus explicitly identifies Guilliman's Legion as the most dangerous and in one of the False Gods he states that it's all for naught if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene. Indeed he even says the Wolves are the least of his problems.


That becuase the Wolves were hurting and Alpha was tangling up what was left, the WBs meanwhiled kept the UMs occupied which they did. The UMs played no role in the Siege at all. 

Also any info as to why Horus Drooped his Shields is not Explained at all. He peunched a hole in the walls, Kharn himself was close to the Throne when he fell. The Traitors outnumbered the Loyalist 10 to 1. Mars was on Horus Side. The Warp was raging making Travel and Communications near impossible. So what did Horus have to fear? UMs? Reailly,? AL could have stalled them for sure. The battle was won for Horus, he dropped his shields and according to the CSM Codex he did so to better witness and feel his victory. So.....



Gree said:


> And since Collected Visions is being used as the basis for the Hrous Heresy books I would take that as a prioirty.


Im glad you take it as priority, but I dont see you applying it in your argument very well cause I and others are stating the UMs played no big role in the HH and yet you keep insisting they were a threat.

Seriously I think this debate is done with. Me and others have shot holes in your arguments time and again and now it seems were dancing on the same issue of Wolves being better than UMs.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Take your time Im sure its not there.


Once I manage to get the book I'm sure it will be there.

EDIT: Here



> Xaphen moved away from the others, coming to the pod etched with XI. Rather than peer into its depths, he looked over his shoulder at Argel Tal.
> 
> "The eleventh primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now," he confessed.
> 
> ...


I always took this as Lorgar somehow particpating in the destruction of his brothers. It seemd very personal to him. Although it can be interpreted in many different ways.



Warlock in Training said:


> Gee why is that? Oh yeah cause the TS are most dangerious Legion because Psy Marines TRUMP average Marines... like UM pride themselves being... vaniila flavore. So yeah if SWs didnt want TOTAL devastation and the Big E probaly wanted to keep them as a fighting force, then yeah something called Tatics is used. As in SoS and Custodes to make the task a sure win.


No, it's unlikey the Wolves would have been able to face a fully prepared and prepped TS Legion. Hawser says even the Wolves doubt victory without the Sisters and Custodes.

Anyway any legion could have done what the Wolves did.



Warlock in Training said:


> Thats why the Daemon who knew the names of the Custodes PWN them... and strangely enough he wasnt affected by SoS huge presence there either... must be a very short range. Fact checked.


He only knew some of the names of the custodes because Haweser leanred Amon's name and you don't know where the Sisters where placed at all in the Nikea hearing, we are not given a description relative to Hawser's position. He does nto knwo the names of every single Custodes.

So no.



Warlock in Training said:


> It plays a HUGE roll. Thats like saying EOD is just as regular as a SEAL. Bullshit, hes better at bombs. So if you have a Legion by Design as a Excutioner/Anti Legion then that must mean they were DESIGN to be better against the average joe shmoe SM. How does this simple aspect not get thru to u, or if u truly wish to completly ignore it. Which is fine since its debate.


No, the aspect of the Wolves, as shown in Prospero Burns and in A Thousand Sons, was that they where ruthless enough to do anything. Only Haweser claims that they are better one-on-one than other Astartes and he's biased and shown to be wrong on multiple occasions.

The Wolves arn't more skilled or better than other Astartes overall,. We've seen this when a Space Wolf character appear as part of Bannon's Deathwatch team yet performs no better than any other. We see it when the Wolves are not overwhelming the Thousand Sons despite the Sons losing their powers due to the Sisters. We see it again in battle of the Abyss where the Space Wolves are portrayed as no stronger or better than the Ultramarines.



Warlock in Training said:


> I guess the the added Genes and understannding of the Warp really does make them Average to the majority Legions that dont have either.


Added genes don't really give them any appricable advantage to their combat skill and nothing the Rune Priests have shown eclipses what we've seen Librarians do. So no.



Warlock in Training said:


> Sure they are otherwise World Eaters would be more like the UMs, or the IF would be tasked with Espionage like the AL, or hell Slalamanders will massacre innocent people to instill fear like the NL do. Seriously! Each Legions IS superior to another in someway or area. UM are superior the rest of the Legions in Quanity not Quality.


No, my point is that no Legion is superior to each other overall, which is what you seem to be implying. And nothing states or implies that the Ultramarines are inferior individually to other Astartes. If nothing else Battle of the Abyss proved that. If you want Post-Heresy examples I have plenty of them of Ultramarines matching other Astartes just fine in terms of quality.



Warlock in Training said:


> Wow your really nuking this arnt you. 1) The Chaos Gods were going to win regardless, The Cabal forsaw that nonsense, it was how long they would rule.


The Cabal where wrong. Alpharius joined Horus and the Emperor still won. they said that if Alpharius joined Horus, Horus would have won.



Warlock in Training said:


> . 2) Horus succeded in taking the Emp out, and now the Imperium is condemn to a slow death.


According to a bunch of xenos who are using a warp-based device. I never believed the Cabal. They where shown to be wrong before.

However I don't see how ethier of those points relate to them being wrong about the other Legions being viable military threats. The daemon states that only the Wolves where a viable military threat and the Thousand Sons a viable warp threat. On the military side of thigns we know he was wrong as the other Legions did prove to be threats during the Heresy.



Warlock in Training said:


> 3) Just cause the Chaos Gods say this will be done doesnt mean kinks are not thrown in their plans, ther forsaw SW/TS as the biggest threats cause they were the Badess.


Wrong, they saw them as the _only_ threats. The daemon flat out states that _only_ the Space Wolves are a viable military threat. Obviously he was proved wrong by the Heresy. No matter how you try to justify otherwise, it was wrong.



Warlock in Training said:


> Seriously the biggest flaw to your logic is it seems u are under the Impression that the UMs were a THREAT to the plans and they were not. What did they do that was so plot turning in the HH? Name one thing.


They where one of the reasons why Horus dropped his shields. This was stated in Collected Visions. Horus also flat out stated in Galaxy in Flames that if Guilliman was allowed to intervene all would be lost.



Warlock in Training said:


> Plenty of reason and good argument are presented, you just dont want to hear it.


No, I hear it. Then I take apart your arguments and show you the flaws in them. So far I've been having a rather easy time of doing it.



Warlock in Training said:


> That becuase the Wolves were hurting and Alpha was tangling up what was left, the WBs meanwhiled kept the UMs occupied which they did. The UMs played no role in the Siege at all.


Collected Visions begs to differ. Have you read Collected Visions at all?



Warlock in Training said:


> Also any info as to why Horus Drooped his Shields is not Explained at all.


Yes it is in Collected Visions.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also any info as to why Horus Drooped his Shields is not Explained at all. He peunched a hole in the walls, Kharn himself was close to the Throne when he fell.


No, we don't know where Kharn was. He was at the walls breaching it, but the Imperial palace is the size of a continet.



Warlock in Training said:


> The Warp was raging making Travel and Communications near impossible. So what did Horus have to fear? UMs? Reailly,?.


Yes really. Horus himself flat out states in Collected Visions that the Ultramarines are mere hours away and that they are the greatest threat.



Warlock in Training said:


> AL could have stalled them for sure.


the Alpha Legion where not at Terra.



Warlock in Training said:


> Im glad you take it as priority, but I dont see you applying it in your argument very well cause I and others are stating the UMs played no big role in the HH and yet you keep insisting they were a threat.


Because they where. Have you ever read Collected Visions? Or Galaxy in Flames, Horus even talks about how much of a threat they where.



> Regulus turned to leave and Erebus said, 'We have waited a long time for this day, Lorgar will be exultant.'
> 'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all *this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene*. Save your celebrations for when I sit upon the throne of Terra.


So, Horus himself, in two seperate sources, is stating the Ultramarines are a threat.

Index Astartes: Thousand Sons,



> He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold.


Again the implication here is that they pose a threat to Horus.



Warlock in Training said:


> Seriously I think this debate is done with. Me and others have shot holes in your arguments time and again and now it seems were dancing on the same issue of Wolves being better than UMs.


No, you have done nothing of the sort. I have consistently countered each and ever one of your arguments. Much of your arguments seemed ot be based around assumption, rather than stated fact. So far I have heard everything and nothing has convinced me. I will continue to counter your arguments, time permitting.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> I always took this as Lorgar somehow particpating in the destruction of his brothers. It seemd very personal to him.


I could care less about the rest of this debate, but this is somewhat intriguing. However, I disagree with you. I see nothing in that excerpt that suggests they took place in the destruction of another legion other than the fact that he was sad. 

Lorgar always seemed to be a particularly emotional primarch, it could simply mean he as saddened by the fact his brother(Russ) was sent to kill two other brothers.

I am not saying that it couldn't have happened, but I don't see enough in this to believe that he participated in it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I could care less about the rest of this debate, but this is somewhat intriguing. However, I disagree with you. I see nothing in that excerpt that suggests they took place in the destruction of another legion other than the fact that he was sad.
> 
> Lorgar always seemed to be a particularly emotional primarch, it could simply mean he as saddened by the fact his brother(Russ) was sent to kill two other brothers.
> 
> I am not saying that it couldn't have happened, but I don't see enough in this to believe that he participated in it.


Which I have to agree with to an extent. My perceptions of the book where somewhat misinformed by not reading it for a while. but it's rather vague in any case.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Dan Abnett maybe the most respected writer of anything written in the Horus Heresy. Plain and simple. When he writes a WHOLE Heresy Novel on why the Wolves "think," or as you perceive to think of it as "they think," then its obviously for a reason. 

And we have had these discussion several times before. Seriously, its one thing to not like the idea that the Wolves could be the legion designed to take out other legions, and then theres another thing to discredit his work in the Heresy and his very words.

And to the reference to the Ultramarines being the biggest threat to Horus during the siege; The wolves are out. They have for one, just been in a fight and whipped out a legion. Probably not able to fill in the empty slots in the ranks.

Second, the Wolves get ambushed, by a whole legion's fleet. So, not only can they not use their combat tactics as astartes, but they have to fight a totally different war in space. So they're pretty much out. Being probably out numbered, and having the element of surprise against them.

Third, every other legion is badly mauled. Primarily because of their legion purges. The Ultramarines have faced the least with fighting at most half a legion. If even that. 

Fourth, look at the Siege of Terra. It is after all a Siege. Most of the forces are on the ground and vulnerable to air and space support. The Ultramarines aren't going to drop all 250,000 astartes into the fray. That would probably give the Chaos Legions a chance. No, this is a totally different battle we are talking about.

So yes, the Ultramarines would be the legion you probably wouldn't want hovering over you with all your troops on the ground. Having a fleet probably three times the size of any other, at LEAST. And all the Imperial Guard support they probably have as well.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Dan Abnett maybe the most respected writer of anything written in the Horus Heresy. Plain and simple. When he writes a WHOLE Heresy Novel on why the Wolves "think," or as you perceive to think of it as "they think," then its obviously for a reason.
> 
> And we have had these discussion several times before. Seriously, its one thing to not like the idea that the Wolves could be the legion designed to take out other legions, and then theres another thing to discredit his work in the Heresy and his very words.


I'm not trying discrediting his work at all. 40k is filled with a vareity of things that let's you interpret things how one wishes.



ckcrawford said:


> And to the reference to the Ultramarines being the biggest threat to Horus during the siege;


Actually I don't really care about them being the biggest threat. I'm simply stating that they are a big threat and defending against those who say they arn't a threat.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well obviously they're a threat, no one can actually dispute that. Its more in what terms, an how they are the biggest threat thats the point. The reason why they became the biggest threat is because they weren't dealt with.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

We know the Prospero stuff happened because both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons were a threat to Horus/Chaos.

Both legions suffered from hubris. Magnus with his understanding of the warp and Russ with arrogance at thinking he was always one step ahead of Magnus. 

As I said before I believe both legions were a threat because they arguably have a better understanding of Chaos than any of the other legions and they are totally loyal to the Emperor.

The UM couldn't have been 'sanctioned' to get rid of the TS, because they were not unrestrained in the same way the SW were. Rather than bombing Prospero and kicking the crap out of TS I reckon Guiliman would have had a chat with Magnus first and resolved things amicably. That wouldn't do for Chaos. 

The SW were just the right opponents to the TS. Not necessarily physically, but they had (chaos fueled) suspicions about the TS, they could not be called off once 'sanctioned' and they along with TS were collectively a big threat to Chaos.

Why the UM were not manipulated or taken out in a similar fashion I can not say for sure. However, we know the Word Bearers did try to take them out and by that time they were all chaos-y (so arguably more powerful than an average astartes). Maybe Chaos thought the Word Bearers would have suceeded at Calth; that was the plan after all. That they weren't completely destroyed at Calth says something. 

I think there is an argument that the UM distance from the Eye of Terror affected the influence of Chaos or that they were so distant from the main stage that chaos didn't have to do a lot to keep them away from the main action.

To me the reason why the SW are legion killers is because they can not be called off once sanctioned and they are more strategically/tactically minded than given credit by the opponent. Because the Wolves are underestimated this gives them an immediate advantage (arguably, nowhere near the advantage of 'the jump' like the Word Bearers had at Calth. My argument is that Guilliman is clever enough to know how strategically/tactically minded Russ is, which means that the Wolves only advantage would be their ferocity and unrelentless attacking. I think Guilliman could handle that.

I think it has been established that the Alpha Legion would fare the best. For reasons that others have said. In any sort of pitched battle I think the UM have little competition, but in the long game and with subterfuge the AL could just turn the regular joes citizens against the UMs.

Final note: Those who keep saying the Codex Astartes is a rigid text are wrong. I believe it is put across that way in 40k (the UM novels and maybe the codex), but when it was created it was not. 

Sorry this is a bit random in ordering - typing quick - must get to work!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hous never states the Ultramarines are the biggest threat at all. Nor does he say they are the most dangerous Legion heading to Terra. It merely states both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines are mere hours away, and that the Dark Angels are also inbound but they don't know when they will arrive, which potentially means the Dark Angels could arrive first. 

As for the Wolves being an Executioner legion or not, looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Imo its hugely relevant to the debate, so if neither of us is going to give ground on that fact then this will just keep going round and round and round.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hous never states the Ultramarines are the biggest threat at all. Nor does he say they are the most dangerous Legion heading to Terra. It merely states both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines are mere hours away, and that the Dark Angels are also inbound but they don't know when they will arrive, which potentially means the Dark Angels could arrive first.


No he does not. Horus states that the Space Wolves on their own are no great threat, then it goes on to state that the prescence of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels worried him. In the next paragraph it states that he assumed that Guilliman's Legion was still the biggest and most powerful even afer Calth.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> No he does not. Horus states that the Space Wolves on their own are no great threat, then it goes on to state that the prescence of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels worried him. In the next paragraph it states that he assumed that Guilliman's Legion was still the biggest and most powerful even afer Calth.


This doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't believe that the wolves and the sons were not his greatest threat at the onset of the heresy, it merely means that the wolves, given their vastly decreased numbers, were no longer a credible military threat. However, it doesn't mean that the UM were better in any way to the wolves. If Horus believed that the wolves were a greater threat at the onset than the UM and the UM vastly outnumbered the Rout than it would seem to suggest to me that the wolves, individually, were more of a threat to him than the UM were. However, this could just be because the UM were far removed from the scene and the Wolves would have been able to respond to the threat much faster, or at least been present at the Battle for Terra and if they were than Horus's forces would have had no way of winning that fight, but, anyway, take it for what you will. 

Personally, I don't believe the message of Prospero Burns was that the Rout were some sort of God offal badasses that would rip the shit out of any legion, but rather they were willing to go to any lengths to get the job done. I believe this is most evident in the scene when Hawser and Jormungdr, at least I think it was Jormungdr, encounter the daemon and, instead of dodging or deflecting the blade like most astartes would, he takes it in order to trap his opponent and make a kill, he doesn't but that was the idea. The Routs strength is their willpower and their willingness to do all that is needed to win, the increased senses don't hurt, but they aren't vastly more powerful than any other astartes.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> This doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't believe that the wolves and the sons were not his greatest threat at the onset of the heresy, it merely means that the wolves, given their vastly decreased numbers, were no longer a credible military threat. However, it doesn't mean that the UM were better in any way to the wolves. If Horus believed that the wolves were a greater threat at the onset than the UM and the UM vastly outnumbered the Rout than it would seem to suggest to me that the wolves, individually, were more of a threat to him than the UM were. However, this could just be because the UM were far removed from the scene and the Wolves would have been able to respond to the threat much faster, or at least been present at the Battle for Terra and if they were than Horus's forces would have had no way of winning that fight, but, anyway, take it for what you will.


Except Horus never states that the Wolves and the Sons are the most dangerous. In Prospero Burns, we have a daemon _pretending_ to be Horus stating that the Wolves are the _only_ Legion that can post a genuine military threat to Horus. Not that they are the greatest threat, but the only geninue threat.

Obviously that's false as the Heresy showed.

In the meantime the one scene in which we see the real Horus talk he states that all will be lost of Guilliman's Legion is allowed to interfere.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Except Horus never states that the Wolves and the Sons are the most dangerous. In Prospero Burns, we have a daemon _pretending_ to be Horus stating that the Wolves are the _only_ Legion that can post a genuine military threat to Horus. Not that they are the greatest threat, but the only geninue threat.
> 
> Obviously that's false as the Heresy showed.
> 
> In the meantime the one scene in which we see the real Horus talk he states that all will be lost of Guilliman's Legion is allowed to interfere.


How is it shown to be wrong? They were dealt with, this was the entire point of the battle for Prospero; to deal with two major threats. At that point in the heresy, it could have been true that they were the only credible threat. The UM were far to the east, the DA were off doing something or other, and most of the other legions were either getting ready to be skull fucked or twiddling their thumbs on Terra. IDK what the hell the BA were doing. All we know is that later in the Heresy they were no longer a threat to Horus and the UM were. Also, the daemons could have been planning on one set path, for all we know they could have information that we don't have.

For example, maybe the vast majority heresy played out exactly as they had planned, but for the final scene. What if they knew that the the coming of the UM would mean that Horus would drop his shields? Maybe they had planned for it. If this is so, perhaps they were correct in saying that the UM were no threat to *their* plan. However, maybe that is where things changed. Maybe that lone marine that Horus shredded wasn't supposed to be their, maybe Horus wasn't supposed to hesitate. It could have been that something they were not expecting happened and changed everything. 

Also, we are assuming that no threat to the Gods means no threat to Horus, which might not be true.

Personally, I think it is far to early in the heresy to really tell, we are only in the opening scenes, we have no idea what might come in the future. Things change, especially GW fluff. It could be that the finer details of the heresy change as well.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> How is it shown to be wrong?


The Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists and the White Scars all where viable threats to Horus at the seige of Terra. So where the three Legions that attacked Istavvan. You can't seriously think that the Wolves where the only Legion that could actually hurt Horus can you?



gen.ahab said:


> How is it shown to be wrong? They were dealt with, this was the entire point of the battle for Prospero; to deal with two major threats. At that point in the heresy, it could have been true that they were the only credible threat. The UM were far to the east, the DA were off doing something or other, and most of the other legions were either getting ready to be skull fucked or twiddling their thumbs on Terra.


If they where getting ready to be ''skull fucked'' as you so put it, then obviously they would be considered threats. If The Blood Angels where not a viable military threat to Horus then why bother setting up a trap for them? Or why even bother with Istavaan when the RG, Salamanders and IH are not threats at all? if the Ultramarines where not a viable threat then why send the Word Bearers at them?

The wording of the daemon's statement makes it sound like only the Space Wolves could fight back against Horus effectively. However we saw other Legions fight back effectively and deny Horus's aims.



gen.ahab said:


> Also, we are assuming that no threat to the Gods means no threat to Horus, which might not be true.


The daemon was pretending to be Horus during that entire scene and acted as if threats to Horus where real.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> The Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists and the White Scars all where viable threats to Horus at the seige of Terra. So where the three Legions that attacked Istavvan. You can't seriously think that the Wolves where the only Legion that could actually hurt Horus can you


They were more speed bump than credible threat. They would have broken at some point, it was inevitable and there was no real hope of them ever accomplishing a successfully counter attack that would cripple the traitor forces at any point. 



> If they where getting ready to be ''skull fucked'' as you so put it, then obviously they would be considered threats. If The Blood Angels where not a viable military threat to Horus then why bother setting up a trap for them? Or why even bother with Istavaan when the RG, Salamanders and IH are not threats at all? if the Ultramarines where not a viable threat then why send the Word Bearers at them?


To the Gods? Perhaps not. It could have been their fates were already firmly in place and there was nothing that could be done about it. Could be that the fates of the Rout were still in play, who knows. 



> The wording of the daemon's statement makes it sound like only the Space Wolves could fight back against Horus effectively. However we saw other Legions fight back effectively and deny Horus's aims.


Depends, if the fates were denied, then yes. IOW, they only really held him from winning because failures in the other legions, they were going to lose at some point, it was a forgone conclusion. However, if the entire heresy was orchestrated by the gods and those seemingly inconsequential events that changed the outcome of the heresy were never supposed to take place, than they really only served to further the Gods plan more so than disrupt it. 



> The daemon was pretending to be Horus during that entire scene and acted as if threats to Horus where real.


Daemons are know for telling half truths. He could have very well been speaking of his own worries.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They were more speed bump than credible threat. They would have broken at some point, it was inevitable and there was no real hope of them ever accomplishing a successfully counter attack that would cripple the traitor forces at any point.


They certainly where a credible threat in my eyes. Without them there could be no defense of Terra.



gen.ahab said:


> At that point, no. They were dealt with. It could have been their fates were already firmly in place and there was nothing that could be done about it. Could be that the fates of the Rout were still in play, who knows.


They wen't dealt with at that point. The Burning of Prospero happened before the Heresy. And in order to be dealth with that had to be considered threats in the first place.

You don't deal with something if it's not a threat.



gen.ahab said:


> Depends, if the fates were denied, then yes. IOW, they only really held him from winning because failures in the other legions, they were going to lose at some point, it was a forgone conclusion. However, if the entire heresy was orchestrated by the gods and those seemingly inconsequential events that changed the outcome of the heresy were never supposed to take place, than they really only served to further the Gods plan more so than disrupt it.


How exactly did the other Legions fail? The Blood Angels beat off the attack and got to Terra, the Ultramarines beat fof the attack at Calth and made way to Terra. The Dark Angels where abel to make way to Terra. Only the Iron Hands, the Raven Guard and the Salamanders could have failed.

And as for fate? Did't the Chaos Gods also predict that both of the Thousand Sons and the Wolves would kill each other? We've seen them wrong at least twice now.



gen.ahab said:


> Daemons are know for telling half truths. He could have very well been speaking of his own worries.


Then why take the form of Horus? Just to screw with Hawser?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> They certainly where a credible threat in my eyes. Without them there could be no defense of Terra.


They could have only slowed them, never destroyed them. They put themselves in a purely defensive position which means they couldn't have won. In my eyes, that isn't a threat. Think of it this way: would you consider a speed bump a threat, or a nuisance?



> They wen't dealt with at that point. The Burning of Prospero happened before the Heresy. And in order to be dealth with that had to be considered threats in the first place.
> 
> You don't deal with something if it's not a threat.


My point was the lines that would eventually take them to the Massacre may have already been put into motion, which would account for the fact that they were no longer considered threats to the Gods. 



> How exactly did the other Legions fail? The Blood Angels beat off the attack and got to Terra, the Ultramarines beat fof the attack at Calth and made way to Terra. The Dark Angels where abel to make way to Terra. Only the Iron Hands, the Raven Guard and the Salamanders could have failed.


Chaos legions that were sent to prevent the loyalists from making it to Terra. Loyalists didn't fail.



> And as for fate? Did't the Chaos Gods also predict that both of the Thousand Sons and the Wolves would kill each other? We've seen them wrong at least twice now.


Never said they weren't, but in the grand scheme the wolves were eliminated as a threat. Didn't they just predict that it would leave them crippled? I very much doubt they were combat effective and they expedition did result in them being removed as a threat.



> Then why take the form of Horus? Just to screw with Hawser?


Giving them an enemy?

EDIT: Perhaps arrogance? Showing him that all the humanity was moving towards was now beyond its grasp? Perhaps he was showing him that none were beyond their grasp.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> Then why take the form of Horus? Just to screw with Hawser?


Yeah why not? Seems like the exact kind of thing a deamon would do. What an impact to have on someone by appearing as the Emperors chosen son, the brightest star, Warmaster.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They could have only slowed them, never destroyed them. They put themselves in a purely defensive position which means they couldn't have won. In my eyes, that isn't a threat. Think of it this way: would you consider a speed bump a threat, or a nuisance?


It depends how dangerous said speed bump is. You don't have to be capable of being destroyed by it for it to be a threat. If they can kill your soldiers, cause harm and wreak havoc in your armies they are a threat certainly.

You seriously don't think that the Wolves can single-handedly take on nine(eight depending on if you consider the Alpha Legion to be) traitor Legions and destroy them all do you?



gen.ahab said:


> My point was the lines that would eventually take them to the Massacre may have already been put into motion, which would account for the fact that they were no longer considered threats to the Gods.


The future is ever changing and inscrutable. Not even the chaos Gods can predict things perfectly. And as we know they have been wrong before.




gen.ahab said:


> Never said they weren't, but in the grand scheme the wolves were eliminated as a threat. Didn't they just predict that it would leave them crippled? I very much doubt they were combat effective and they expedition did result in them being removed as a threat.


No, the daemon himself said they where still a threat. They predicted that the Wolves and Sons would destroy each other. That did't happen. And they proved to be one later, by joining the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. The Chaos Gods made a predicition and they where wrong.



gen.ahab said:


> EDIT: Perhaps arrogance? Showing him that all the humanity was moving towards was now beyond its grasp? Perhaps he was showing him that none were beyond their grasp.


So otherwise something pointless as the daemon reveals it's true form later on. If he wanted to convince Hawser that Horus was a traitor he did a poor job of that.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> It depends how dangerous said speed bump is You don't have to be capable of being destroyed by it for it not to be a threat. If they can kill your soldiers, cause harm and wreak havoc in your armies they are a threat certainly.


A threat is only a threat if it has to potential to win and that chance is perceivable, the loyalists were dead in the water. I wouldn't consider them to be a threat to the invasion forces as a whole.



> You seriously don't think that the Wolves can single-handedly take on nine(eight depending on if you consider the Alpha Legion to be) traitor Legions and destroy them all do you?


Don't need to eliminate 9, just one person. I assume they thought they were capable of that.



> future is ever changing and inscrutable. Not even the chaos Gods can predict things perfectly. And as we know they have been wrong before.


Their ability to predict the future seems to range from slightly off to dead on. It could be that certain events are fixed, but the finer details of said events are fixed. This is a fictional universe after all is said and done.



> No, the daemon himself said they where still a threat. They predicted that the Wolves and Sons would destroy each other. That did't happen. And they proved to be one later, by joining the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. The Chaos Gods made a predicition and they where wrong.


They were eliminated as a threat because of the expedition. Because they left they were reduced and were later ambushed which means they were not a credible threat. The Fleet was a threat, Rout were a negligible increase.

Accidentally deleted that last bit, but Daemons are arrogant, it doesn't have to have a point.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> IDK what the hell the BA were doing. All we know is that later in the Heresy they were no longer a threat to Horus and the UM were.


The BA were too busy being vampires that glitter in the sun... they stopped being a threat when they became emo over some bird.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> A threat is only a threat if it has to potential to win and that chance is perceivable, the loyalists were dead in the water. I wouldn't consider them to be a threat to the invasion forces as a whole.


No, a threat is something capable of inflicting injury or causing harm. Look it up in the dictionary.

The loyalists where still a threat as they could kill Horus's troops and inflict damage on his fleets.

1. a declaration of the intention to inflict harm, pain, or misery 
2. an indication of imminent harm, danger, or pain 
3. a person or thing that is regarded as dangerous or likely to inflict pain or misery 

From here.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/threat




gen.ahab said:


> .
> Don't need to eliminate 9, just one person. I assume they thought they were capable of that.


Leman Russ with one Legion vs Horus with 9(8) Legions. .

The Wolves are not ending his rebellion by themselves. Eliminating Horus in the middle of his entire battlefleet is much easier said than done.



gen.ahab said:


> They were eliminated as a threat because of the expedition. Because they left they were reduced and were later ambushed which means they were not a credible threat. The Fleet was a threat, Rout were a negligible increase.


First of all, define what expedition you are talking about here.



gen.ahab said:


> Accidentally deleted that last bit, but Daemons are arrogant, it doesn't have to have a point.


So if the daemon does not have a point we can ignore the whole ''Wolves where the only threat'' thing now can we?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

iPhone so I can't quote everything, so quick overview:

I know the def, but I really only consider things threats if they have the potential to defeat me. Otherwise it is just a pain in the ass.

Obviously thought they were capable.

Went to propsero. Went there, lost a large amount of men, on the way back they were ambushed and lost more rendering them a mutt point.

Again, daemons speak half truths. We don't know if he was telling the truth in that instance or not. Although I will conceit that there is a fair chance it is bull shit.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> iPhone so I can't quote everything, so quick overview:
> 
> I know the def, but I really only consider things threats if they have the potential to defeat me. Otherwise it is just a pain in the ass.


Well what you consider the defnintion may not match up to what Abnett intended with that phrase.



gen.ahab said:


> Obviously thought they were capable.


You thought they where capable or russ thought they where capable?

Ethier way the Wolves get curbstomped horribly against all 9 Legions if they are trying to take out Horus.



gen.ahab said:


> Went to propsero. Went there, lost a large amount of men, on the way back they were ambushed and lost more rendering them a mutt point.


Half of that occured _after_ the daemon words.



gen.ahab said:


> Again, daemons speak half truths. We don't know if he was telling the truth in that instance or not. Although I will conceit that there is a fair chance it is bull shit.


So in other words there is not point in using that as a reference because we don't know if it is true or not.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Fair point. 

Yes, they all would have died, but there is a chance they could take down Horus. If they thought they could, given what Pros burns tells, they very well might try.

What the daemon thought.

Already said he was at least partially incorrect.

Fair enough.

Also, I don't believe I ever stated that *I* thought they were, just possible reasons the daemon might.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm not sure if the discussion is still on topic, but sticking to OP I still think Alpha Legion has the best chance if any.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This topic was Derailed by the guy who want to constantly argue vague or single minded post of UMs are more a threat than SWs.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> This topic was Derailed by the guy who want to constantly argue vague or single minded post of UMs are more a threat than SWs.


I'm afriad not. I was simply responding to another post. My posts where still on topic as I was discussing the combat abiltities of the Ultramarines. Someone cited the Wolves as being more dangerous than the Ultramarines as detirmined by the chaos gods, I responded to why that is not so with evidence from the Black Library books, Index Astartes and more.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

You say the same thing over and over again. "SWs are not better then UMs" "SWs and TS were not the biggest threat to Horus" "Everything the Daemons say is untrue" "Horus lost becuase of his irrational fear of the UMs making there way to Terra" and my personel favorite "These few sentences from Horus in Collected Visions say..." over, and over, and over again. 4-5 people on this forum tried to point out it could be this way and agree you have a point while you post back ur simply right. I have not seen a "Fair Point" from you at all. The topic of this thread is WHO can trample the UMs? Not Ultramarines cant be beaten. XxDremisterxX is the first guy in 4 pages to actually be on topic. Thats how long this spat has gone on for. So by my definition its been derailed to... SWs vs UMs whos the bigger threat?...thread. Have you given a answere on who could have beaten the Smurfs?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> You say the same thing over and over again. "SWs are not better then UMs" "SWs and TS were not the biggest threat to Horus" "Everything the Daemons say is untrue" "Horus lost becuase of his irrational fear of the UMs making there way to Terra" and my personel favorite "These few sentences from Horus in Collected Visions say..." over, and over, and over again. ?


Only because people respond in opposition, I cite these points with evidence. It's called a debate.



Warlock in Training said:


> 4-5 people on this forum tried to point out it could be this way and agree you have a point while you post back ur simply right. ?


So you agree that I'm right? Thank you. When people agree with me I agree with them,however if they disagree with me (As most of this thread has been) then I simply reply and refute their arguments.

Actually overall it's pretty a pretty well reasoned and well-conducted debate so far.



Warlock in Training said:


> . I have not seen a "Fair Point" from you at all.


That's your opinion then. I would note that I could say much of the same thing for you. 


Warlock in Training said:


> The topic of this thread is WHO can trample the UMs? Not Ultramarines cant be beaten.


I never said they could not be beaten. I merely responded to erronous accusations and then corrected them.

Logically speaking, if we are to determine who could beat the Ultramarines it would be best to detirmine the combat capacities of the Ultramarines Legion and then who could beat them. If none of the Legions posses sufficent combat capacity to match the Ultramarines then they cannot be beaten, theoretically.



Warlock in Training said:


> XxDremisterxX is the first guy in 4 pages to actually be on topic.


I have been on topic the last few pages actually.

In fact I'll point out that you yourself are now derailing the threat by hurling accusations at me.



Warlock in Training said:


> So by my definition its been derailed to... SWs vs UMs whos the bigger threat?...thread.


That's your definition. I'm afriad I'm going to have to disagree. That debate was nothing more than an extension of how to detirmine combat capacity. Nothing more.



Warlock in Training said:


> Have you given a answere on who could have beaten the Smurfs?


Yes, it's not the Space Wolves that's for sure. I would put the Alpha Legion as the best bet, although it's hard to gauge their combat potential when much of their information is given in a biased IA article.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why could the Rout not defeat the UM. To date, they have been used to eliminate at least 2 legions, maybe 3. It would seem they are fairly adept at it at this point.

If you have said it over sever posts, I might have missed that. If so, a brief synopsis would work. 

I agree they couldn't do it on their own, there is just to many bodies for them to cut through, but I would like to see your arguments main points.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Why could the Rout not defeat the UM. To date, they have been used to eliminate at least 2 legions, maybe 3. It would seem they are fairly adept at it at this point.
> 
> If you have said it over sever posts, I might have missed that. If so, a brief synopsis would work.
> 
> I agree they couldn't do it on their own, there is just to many bodies for them to cut through, but I would like to see your arguments main points.


My point is the Wolves could not do it on their own. The one time we see them do it they have help, allies and Magnus sabotaging things. We don't know the circumstances of the others.

Put up the entire Space Wolf Legion against the entire Ultramarine Legion and they lose. That's my point.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Even in that battle, we saw that once the wolves got in close they were ripping the sons apart. The only reason the sons lasted so long was their powers, otherwise one could argue that it would have been a slaughter. Also, even though they had assistance, they obviously preformed the lions share of the work.

Admittedly though, this means little to the UM; it seems the vast majority of the sons had neglected other aspects of war and would be inferior in CC to even UM. However, I would be willing to bet a SW would be able to take down an UM or two in a CC fight before going down. However, this still means they would have many left to kill by the time they had all died. Just to give my favorite legion a boost, you understand.

I would have liked to seen more reasoning behind that, but it works.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Even in that battle, we saw that once the wolves got in close they were ripping the sons apart. The only reason the sons lasted so long was their powers, otherwise one could argue that it would have been a slaughter. Also, even though they had assistance, they obviously preformed the lions share of the work.


However one of the reasons the Space Wolves every got the chance to close was because Magnus disabling the Corvidae's warnings and deactivating the orbital defenses and fleet. Putting it bluntly, the Thousand Sons where disadvantaged even before the battle.

If the Space Wolves where to attack Ultramar they would be facing orbital defenses. And unlike the Thousand Sons, Guilliman would not be hiding out for most of the battle.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Not entirly relevant to my post. I was just point they would do well in cc to appease the wolf gods.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Not entirly relevant to my post. I was just point they would do well in cc to appease the wolf gods.


I understand, I just wanted to clarify something.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Everyone is down on the Ultramarines because they're generalists. There's always the argument 'Well if BA or Space Wolves got close to them....'. But that's the thing Ultramarines are not bad in close combat, they are really really good at it. Not as specialised as BA or Space Wolves but still good. They are in fact very good at everything they do. That's how they are always cast in the fiction and that's all we have to go on. Peoples opinion is really irrelevant if it disagrees with the fiction. 

The Ultramarines are supposed to be the best of the Astartes, the most well rounded, so that is exactly what they are.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry but the Ultramarines are not meant to be the 'best' of the astartes. Most well rounded, yes, best? No. No chapter/legion are the best. You've got a fortress that needs defending, Imperial Fists are the best legion for that job, not the Ultramarines. You need a hard brutal assault force to smash apart an enemy or deal a heavy amount of damage in a quick space of time or create a breach, Blood Angels/Templars/Wolves are gonna be the best for that job. You need lightning fast hit and run attacks or sabotage, Raven Guard or White Scars are the best. You need a force that is highly flexible and need to adapt quickly and adopt different doctrines at a moments notice, then the Ultramarines are the best i would say. Nowhere does it say they are the best.

Ultramarines, jack of all trades, master of none. And thats not a bad thing btw, its just what they are though.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Gree said:


> Yes, it's not the Space Wolves that's for sure. I would put the Alpha Legion as the best bet, although it's hard to gauge their combat potential when much of their information is given in a biased IA article.


Finnaly, this all I needed to go to work happy and smack a new recruit around. 

Also AL seems to be the popular choice since Guilliman himself thought he beaten Alpharious and thus defeating AL only to find out to his horror they work just fine without him. Classic.



Angel of Blood said:


> Ultramarines, jack of all trades, master of none. And thats not a bad thing btw, its just what they are though.



Its Bias Fanboyism when it comes to UM, and GW efforts to push Blue PA as the poster child. I love the EC best and Fulgrim is my favorite book, but I know they have to low numbers and are quite arrogant for all their perfected skill. Yet I will rarely say they are the best. Same goes to Red Corsairs and Soul Drinkers. I miss the days when CF dominated the SM Codex cover.....


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Its Bias Fanboyism when it comes to UM, and GW efforts to push Blue PA as the poster child. I love the EC best and Fulgrim is my favorite book, but I know they have to low numbers and are quite arrogant for all their perfected skill. Yet I will rarely say they are the best. Same goes to Red Corsairs and Soul Drinkers. I miss the days when CF dominated the SM Codex cover.....


That's the thing, it's not bias fanboyism. If GW write it then it is simply true, everything Matt Ward has written is cannon like it or not.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Finnaly, this all I needed to go to work happy and smack a new recruit around.


Incorrect. I'n new on the forums, but I've been active on the 40k internet scene for eight years now, doing the same thing for a while. You've hardly ''smacked me around'' as you so put it.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also AL seems to be the popular choice since Guilliman himself thought he beaten Alpharious and thus defeating AL only to find out to his horror they work just fine without him. Classic.


Actually no, not quite. The sole article which depicts that battle has much of the information provided by an Alpha Legion agent. Said battle is even doubted in universe by both the Inquistition and the Ultramarines.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, the battle of Eskrador can never really be used as a factual piece of evidence. Inquisitor Kraven was though not confirmed, almost certainly an Alpha Legion operative, with all of his evidence merely being a ploy by the Legion to feed the Imperium misinformation and false accounts.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Gree said:


> Incorrect. I'n new on the forums, but I've been active on the 40k internet scene for eight years now, doing the same thing for a while. You've hardly ''smacked me around'' as you so put it.


LOL say what? You must think highly about yourself or totaly read THIS wrong. I never implied smacking you around, Im in the Military and literaly meant smacking a new recruit around. :laugh:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> LOL say what? You must think highly about yourself or totaly read THIS wrong. I never implied smacking you around, Im in the Military and literaly meant smacking a new recruit around. :laugh:


Then you should have phrased it better, rather than post it in a vague manner.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Imo the UM's are the cookie cutter, generic Astartes Legion and don't really specialize in anything or are known for anything war-related (other than their abilities with setting up empires, logistics, etc.). 

As some have stated, numbers don't mean much especially when you have specialist legions whose abilities/expertise more than make up for their lesser numbers.

So I would say any legion is capable as the UM are not masters of siege, stealth, night-warfare, ambushing, spearhead tactics, etc. nor do they have any 'flaws' or mutations to help them out.

If the UM didn't have a massive legion and the amount of recruiting worlds they did/do, would they still pose a threat, considering their lack of specialist expertise?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If the UM didn't have a massive legion and the amount of recruiting worlds they did/do, would they still pose a threat, considering their lack of specialist expertise?


Of course. I consider the Ultramarines ''Mario'' status to be a strength, not a weakness. Specialization carries it's own weaknesses. Specialist Legions have weaknesses in additions to their strengths. For example the World Eaters would be deficent in long-range combat, the Death Guard would spent less time training and preparing for mechanised warfare and the White Scars would be less skilled than other Legions in enclosed spaces, seige warfare or starship boarding. All areas in which mobility is restricted.

An all-rounder like the Ultramarines can exploit these weaknesses provided the commander is skilled enough.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Imo the UM's are the cookie cutter, generic Astartes Legion and don't really specialize in anything or are known for anything war-related (other than their abilities with setting up empires, logistics, etc.).
> 
> As some have stated, numbers don't mean much especially when you have specialist legions whose abilities/expertise more than make up for their lesser numbers.
> 
> ...


The Ultramarines are a true military force, the other's are specialised whereas the UM can handle any and all situations without being hampered by mutations or flaws. 

They train and are deployed in situations which some Legions might be better suited for but many more would struggle compare to their brother Astartes, the Ultramarines are paragons of all theatres.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

What kind of aggrivates me about 40k lore and the Primarchs is that before this it basically just sucked his dick. He wasn't without fault.

After reading _Rules of Engagement_, I think we have a better concept of how his codex type style works.




So I was glad that the assimulation showed that Roboute Guilliman's plans required much sacrifice. For example, the part with the World Eaters cutting through the Ultramarines Ranks, it showed that the World Eaters were a very dangerous force. I remember it even being stated that if a legion could defeat the codex, it would be the World Eaters.

Now the interesting thing with the codex, is that it required sacrifice for almost every engagement. The Death Guard, it required giving up much ground. With the World Eaters, it required sacrificing almost entire companies. There was one instance where a captain basically freaked out with the fact that he was reinforcing some companies while basically sacrificing other entirely. But it worked. 


Anyhow, with that short story, it made it clear to me that even Guilliman acknowledges Horus' genius. And that many of us have forgotten how truly great Horus truly is.


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