# Space Marines vs Eldar looking for advice



## Zinj

I posted this in the intro area and have been redirected here. I'm just gonna do a quick cut and paste job, so thanks in advance for any help. I should preface this by establishing the fact that I am brand new to 40k and the only other TT games I've played have been RPGs. (AD&D and d20 Star Wars)

I bought the Assault on Black Reach box and am planning to use the Space Marines to start my army.

I'm planning to play the Dark Angels chapter. I haven't gotten my codexes yet as my Dark Angels should arrive tomorrow and the new Space Marines doesn't come out until the 4th. (I pre-ordered it from GW, and I'm wondering if there's any chance I'll get it on the 4th or will they just be shipping them on the 4th?)

My main concern is that my three friends that sparked my interest in the game all play Eldar. Granted, they don't have the same troop deployment, but they all are playing Eldar. So one of the three, who's been playing 40k for a longtime, stated like it was going to be fact that my Space Marine army would get stomped by the Eldar everytime.

I know he likes to keep all his guys in the trees for the cover bonus, (One of the other guys calls his army the Keebler Eldar lol) and the majority of his troops are snipers and scouts.

Is there a good strategy starting out that I can use against the strengths and weakness of the Eldar with my Space Marines? Will my Dark Angels be gimped against the Eldar?

I've also noticed that alot of people on various forums play Eldar as well? Are they just a slightly over powered army, or do they just have more fexibility than most? Why are Eldar so popular? Either way I'm sold on using a Dark Angels chapter and I'm up to the task of making them work against any army that I may play against.


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## nidman1

Most of it depends on how you use your army. i would look to buy at least 2 fast attack and 3 heavy support and obviously some snipers. but If you use your army right and generate tactics that fit your style of play i am sure you could pound them to the ground


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## Zinj

Right now all I have is a small 585 point army. So to start off I think we'll be doing 1v1 or all 4 of us on one table against each other with small point values until I get the hang of the game and get some more models. 

So far I have 1 Space Marine Captain, a Tactical Squad (10 models), a Terminator squad (5 models), and a Dreadnought.

I don't have a clue how to go about planning out my strategy when we all 4 go at it, but the 1v1s I was thinking of getting my Terminator squad into assault range ASAP, and then supporting from range on the same squad with my tactical squad and Dreadnaught. 

After I feel comfortable enough with painting, my next purchase is going to be a Dark Angels bike squad, and some Dark Angel Marines or Vets.


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## effigy22

Get more troops choices, If your using Dark Angels maybe a ravenwing Army, you will speed and firepower, and being astartes has its perks in C.C. too. 

But i would get the dark angels codex, read through it and carefully consider on what you want to take.


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## PandaPaws

You have every chance of beating the Eldar... BUT... luck, memory, game plan and practice will all play their part!

I'm reasonably new to Eldar, but my DA army chalked up wins v's Tau, Tyranids and other SM's! My Eldar have only played once and that was against Space Wolves... a victory for the Eldar!

The main strength of the Eldar for me is their specialisation... they have the right unit to do the right job! However... get this unit to do the wrong job and you've got them!

As for your forest-dwelling-eldar-buddy... take a Vindicator choice and just barrage him!


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## Syko515

indeed the Eldar are EXTREMELY specailaized, with the right person behind them they become and unstoppable force of marine killing destruction, such as the eldar player i face, HOWEVER!!!!!! do not fall prey to the ideal that they are unbeatable. if you can out manuever, which is hard, or equal/best them by hitting thier troos and taking them down hard you'll at worst tie. in my 40k career i have beaten this eldar player once, we've tied a ton...but only once have my BA routed the oppressivly still broken armies of the eldar.


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## Zinj

Syko515 said:


> indeed the Eldar are EXTREMELY specailaized, with the right person behind them they become and unstoppable force of marine killing destruction, such as the eldar player i face, HOWEVER!!!!!! do not fall prey to the ideal that they are unbeatable. if you can out manuever, which is hard, or equal/best them by hitting thier troos and taking them down hard you'll at worst tie. in my 40k career i have beaten this eldar player once, we've tied a ton...but only once have my BA routed the oppressivly still broken armies of the eldar.


Do you think that the new Space Marines Codex will even the playing field?


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## squeek

Personally I don't think they are unbalanced as it is, you just need to use the right tool for the job. Like I said in your intro thread, use the Eldar's fragility and over-specialisation against them. Pound the crap out of their CC units with HBs and the likes, and cut their non-CC troops to pieces with your tougher marines. I play Eldar, not brilliantly admittedly, and I can't steam roller marines if the player has some idea of tactics.


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## LeeHarvey

I think the new codex may help out some but the Eldar are notorious for being designed to smash marines. If you can get your terminators and dreadnought into CC with anything but Howling Banshees or Stiking Scorpions, they'll plow through em' and the dreadnought will still mess up those two just like the other infantry units that the eldar have (Wraithguard are a little tougher but a Dread shouldn't have any problem with them). Also, Eldar Guardians are quite vulnerable to bolter fire as they only have a 5+ armor save.

Stay out of line of site from Dark Reapers, they've got the range and hitting power to turn your marines into a big greasy spot on the battlefield.

Dire Avengers are a decent match. It's better if you get the charge when you fight them to deny them some attacks.

Striking Scorpions, handle them the same way as the Dire Avengers though they have the capability to hurt you pretty bad in CC so shooting the hell out of them is a good idea.

Howling Banshees should be handled at range.

Keep your Dread (or any vehicle for that matter) well away from the Fire Dragons. Lots of Melty death in that unit.

I've never faced Swooping Hawks so I don't know what to tell you about them.

Remember that most Eldar units are fairly fragile, basically you need to use your superior armor save, strength and toughness to the best advantage and remember that a Space Marine army has more 48" range heavy weaponry than the eldar do (Whirlwind, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Typhoon Missiles, Terminator Cyclone Missiles, etc.). If you have lots of Missile Launchers and deploy just right, you can knock most of his Grav-Tanks and heavier stuff out before they get within the 36" range of most of their Marine Killers. Deployment will count for a lot when you play against the eldar. Use a whirlwind to keep the eldar taking casualties and hopefully pin them as they advance on you. A smart Eldar player will try to disect your force bit by bit using precisely the right unit for the right job. 
The trick is figuring out what specialized units he will use to stop specific parts of your army, then deploy and play to minimize the effect of his units. Take the flint out of his hand before he can start the fire. Know what I mean?

You might think about getting a Rhino to mount your Tactical Marines in so that you can rush them up close to an eldar unit and unleash rapid fire death to wipe out a whole squad. Eldar players hate that. 18 or 20 Boltgun shots can make a mess of just about anything in the eldar army (with a couple of exceptions) even their tanks if you get around to the rear armor. Investing in a squad of Assault Marines couldn't hurt either.


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## Syko515

honestly i think the new marine codex will unfortunatly tip the scales in smurf favor. which is disapointing as i prefer the games that require thought. its also why when it comes out i will still be using my BA lists.


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## Lord Reevan

Syko515 said:


> honestly i think the new marine codex will unfortunatly tip the scales in smurf favor. which is disapointing as i prefer the games that require thought. its also why when it comes out i will still be using my BA lists.


Here here. You're not the only one:good:

The SM dex is now a kind of master of all trades jack of none dealy where they get brilliant units in every aspect.... Surely with that kind of codex the eldar can be beaten pretty easily....

Best tactic is to figh fire with something nonflammable, like a brick. Hit his CC units with devastator or sternguard squads so they don't get close, Hit the shooty units with assault marines and vanguard. Hi-ho silver you're away


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## Zinj

LeeHarvey said:


> I think the new codex may help out some but the Eldar are notorious for being designed to smash marines. If you can get your terminators and dreadnought into CC with anything but Howling Banshees or Stiking Scorpions, they'll plow through em' and the dreadnought will still mess up those two just like the other infantry units that the eldar have (Wraithguard are a little tougher but a Dread shouldn't have any problem with them). Also, Eldar Guardians are quite vulnerable to bolter fire as they only have a 5+ armor save.
> 
> Stay out of line of site from Dark Reapers, they've got the range and hitting power to turn your marines into a big greasy spot on the battlefield.
> 
> Dire Avengers are a decent match. It's better if you get the charge when you fight them to deny them some attacks.
> 
> Striking Scorpions, handle them the same way as the Dire Avengers though they have the capability to hurt you pretty bad in CC so shooting the hell out of them is a good idea.
> 
> Howling Banshees should be handled at range.
> 
> Keep your Dread (or any vehicle for that matter) well away from the Fire Dragons. Lots of Melty death in that unit.
> 
> I've never faced Swooping Hawks so I don't know what to tell you about them.
> 
> Remember that most Eldar units are fairly fragile, basically you need to use your superior armor save, strength and toughness to the best advantage and remember that a Space Marine army has more 48" range heavy weaponry than the eldar do (Whirlwind, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Typhoon Missiles, Terminator Cyclone Missiles, etc.). If you have lots of Missile Launchers and deploy just right, you can knock most of his Grav-Tanks and heavier stuff out before they get within the 36" range of most of their Marine Killers. Deployment will count for a lot when you play against the eldar. Use a whirlwind to keep the eldar taking casualties and hopefully pin them as they advance on you. A smart Eldar player will try to disect your force bit by bit using precisely the right unit for the right job.
> The trick is figuring out what specialized units he will use to stop specific parts of your army, then deploy and play to minimize the effect of his units. Take the flint out of his hand before he can start the fire. Know what I mean?
> 
> You might think about getting a Rhino to mount your Tactical Marines in so that you can rush them up close to an eldar unit and unleash rapid fire death to wipe out a whole squad. Eldar players hate that. 18 or 20 Boltgun shots can make a mess of just about anything in the eldar army (with a couple of exceptions) even their tanks if you get around to the rear armor. Investing in a squad of Assault Marines couldn't hurt either.


I'm going to try to build my army based on this post. I just got back from my local game store and I wish I had of read this before I went. I ended up getting a Black Angel Bike Squadron (3 units). I kind of wish I had gotten a Rhino. Oh well... just have to wait a few days or a week. I've all ready dumped over $100 into this game and my wife is pretty shocked at how expensive this all is. She'll get over it though cause I'm totally into it. I can't remember being this hyped up about any kind of gaming ever. It's just so cool to think about potential strategies and dream about my next addition to my army.



Syko515 said:


> honestly i think the new marine codex will unfortunatly tip the scales in smurf favor. which is disapointing as i prefer the games that require thought. its also why when it comes out i will still be using my BA lists.


Excuse my noobishness, but what do you mean by "smurf"? I remember the old cartoon with Gargamel and Smurfette, but I don't understand the reference or slang.


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## Scottdsp748

I play Eldar currently and have played vanilla codex Marines in the past. While Eldar are good at fighting Space Marines, they are not unbeatable. The key to beating most eldar armies is to make them fight more than one of your units at a time. Don't let something get isolated unless you are prepared to lose it. Do what you can to disrupt their mobility, and bring mobile units of your own. As most of the aspect warriors have 4+ saves and are all T3, massed fire is your friend. Rather than worrying about denying saves, just make them take lots of them. Also, know when to quit shooting at their tanks! If you shoot a Fire Prism with holofields or a fortuned cover save early in the game (before you have to worry about objectives etc) and get a Crew Shaken result leave it be until next turn unless there are absolutely no other targets of opportunity. Also, prioritize killing Farseers, as they are a serious force multiplier. 

I think the new Space Marine Codex will give some attractive options, especially sternguard vets which get ammo for killing aspects and 2+ cover save Pathfinders. Just don't make the mistake of overloading on options and not bringing enough guys. I think you'll find your army to be better under the new Codex than Codex Dark Angels...you'll simply get more stuff and more flexibility for the same amount of points.


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## Sons of Russ

Scottdsp748 said:


> I play Eldar currently and have played vanilla codex Marines in the past. While Eldar are good at fighting Space Marines, they are not unbeatable. The key to beating most eldar armies is to make them fight more than one of your units at a time. Don't let something get isolated unless you are prepared to lose it. Do what you can to disrupt their mobility, and bring mobile units of your own. As most of the aspect warriors have 4+ saves and are all T3, massed fire is your friend. Rather than worrying about denying saves, just make them take lots of them. Also, know when to quit shooting at their tanks! If you shoot a Fire Prism with holofields or a fortuned cover save early in the game (before you have to worry about objectives etc) and get a Crew Shaken result leave it be until next turn unless there are absolutely no other targets of opportunity. Also, prioritize killing Farseers, as they are a serious force multiplier.
> 
> I think the new Space Marine Codex will give some attractive options, especially sternguard vets which get ammo for killing aspects and 2+ cover save Pathfinders. Just don't make the mistake of overloading on options and not bringing enough guys. I think you'll find your army to be better under the new Codex than Codex Dark Angels...you'll simply get more stuff and more flexibility for the same amount of points.


Agreed:

Here is my take on Mechanized Eldar. You will know theyre are mech eldar as almost all units will have skimmer tank transports and be really hard to pin down...

_*As a Marine General, Mech Eldar.



No matter how great the mobility potential of your marine force, you will fall on your own sword by trying to keep up with them...

If you want to win, you must play a very boring, disciplined game.

Sooner or later, you will be tempted to move around all fancy-like those skimmer tank fan-boys....

That's him/her trying to bait you.

Unless your drinking tequila, I recommend you don't swallow the worm...
*_

The key against mobile eldar is don't stretch your units out; his superior mobility will ensure that his army hammers on isolated portions of your force and you will be taken down piecmeal.

Pick solid, durable formations like fullsize tactical squads in rhinos together in big blocks. Force him to face all your fire if he tries to snipe out some of your units...

As stated,if the tank has holofields, stun or shake it and move on to better targets as you will waste alot of fire on skimmer tanks in certain situations with little to show for it in return.

Honestly, against eldar [and mech eldar are still a very popular build] super mobile unit will get you in more trouble than good.

You will have the temptation to zoom them forward.

Unless its a footslogging army and you know you can get your assault squad to grips with non assault aspect warriors... which is rare as the opposing player will usually have something slashy covering his shooty squads.


I*f your Keblar Elf buddy is fielding a Pathfinder Spam list, try out the new Ironclad Dreadnought with two Heavy Flamers in a turn 1 drop pod strike...:mrgreen:*


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## Zinj

Sons of Russ said:


> Agreed:
> 
> Here is my take on Mechanized Eldar. You will know theyre are mech eldar as almost all units will have skimmer tank transports and be really hard to pin down...
> 
> _*As a Marine General, Mech Eldar.
> 
> 
> 
> No matter how great the mobility potential of your marine force, you will fall on your own sword by trying to keep up with them...
> 
> If you want to win, you must play a very boring, disciplined game.
> 
> Sooner or later, you will be tempted to move around all fancy-like those skimmer tank fan-boys....
> 
> That's him/her trying to bait you.
> 
> Unless your drinking tequila, I recommend you don't swallow the worm...
> *_
> 
> The key against mobile eldar is don't stretch your units out; his superior mobility will ensure that his army hammers on isolated portions of your force and you will be taken down piecmeal.
> 
> Pick solid, durable formations like fullsize tactical squads in rhinos together in big blocks. Force him to face all your fire if he tries to snipe out some of your units...
> 
> As stated,if the tank has holofields, stun or shake it and move on to better targets as you will waste alot of fire on skimmer tanks in certain situations with little to show for it in return.
> 
> Honestly, against eldar [and mech eldar are still a very popular build] super mobile unit will get you in more trouble than good.
> 
> You will have the temptation to zoom them forward.
> 
> Unless its a footslogging army and you know you can get your assault squad to grips with non assault aspect warriors... which is rare as the opposing player will usually have something slashy covering his shooty squads.
> 
> 
> I*f your Keblar Elf buddy is fielding a Pathfinder Spam list, try out the new Ironclad Dreadnought with two Heavy Flamers in a turn 1 drop pod strike...:mrgreen:*


Awesome. I think that he's trying to set his conter army up to what I'm building. He's been helping me pick out stuff, but I also get the feeling that he's mentally cataloging my army and setting up his counter in his head.

I want to beat him, but more so I want an army that I can play against anyone and substitute squads as I need to.

Thanks for the information... that goes for everyone.


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## Zinj

If I play vanilla Codex Marines with the new codex, will it make a difference if my models look visually like Dark Angels? I love the Dark Angels models and I was thinking of painting my army like the Dark Angels Bike Squadron on the box. Their armor is black, with white trim, and cream colored robes. I wanted to change the color of the robes to blue and black urban camo, or something to that effect.

It's premature, but I would like to play in a tournament eventually, and while I want to have my army look the way I want it to, I would much rather have an army that adhere's to the rules and regulations so that I don't have to make major adjustments in order to participate.


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## Cole Deschain

Dark Angel model space marines are still space marines.

You'll be fine.


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## LeeHarvey

For the time being GW hasn't made any rules on how your army is painted. They could be iridescent orange with blue pokadots on them and you could play as Dark Angels or a standard Codex Chapter. There are restrictions on quality of painting in tournaments from what I've heard though. I don't know about that for sure because I haven't participated in an official tournament (nor do I intend to, if you look at my models in the gallery you'll see why).


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## LordWaffles

Zinj said:


> I posted this in the intro area and have been redirected here. I'm just gonna do a quick cut and paste job, so thanks in advance for any help. I should preface this by establishing the fact that I am brand new to 40k and the only other TT games I've played have been RPGs. (AD&D and d20 Star Wars)
> 
> I bought the Assault on Black Reach box and am planning to use the Space Marines to start my army.
> 
> I'm planning to play the Dark Angels chapter. I haven't gotten my codexes yet as my Dark Angels should arrive tomorrow and the new Space Marines doesn't come out until the 4th. (I pre-ordered it from GW, and I'm wondering if there's any chance I'll get it on the 4th or will they just be shipping them on the 4th?)
> 
> My main concern is that my three friends that sparked my interest in the game all play Eldar. Granted, they don't have the same troop deployment, but they all are playing Eldar. So one of the three, who's been playing 40k for a longtime, stated like it was going to be fact that my Space Marine army would get stomped by the Eldar everytime.
> 
> I know he likes to keep all his guys in the trees for the cover bonus, (One of the other guys calls his army the Keebler Eldar lol) and the majority of his troops are snipers and scouts.
> 
> Is there a good strategy starting out that I can use against the strengths and weakness of the Eldar with my Space Marines? Will my Dark Angels be gimped against the Eldar?
> 
> I've also noticed that alot of people on various forums play Eldar as well? Are they just a slightly over powered army, or do they just have more fexibility than most? Why are Eldar so popular? Either way I'm sold on using a Dark Angels chapter and I'm up to the task of making them work against any army that I may play against.



Dark Angels are kind of a gimped army. They're not really fantastic at doing anything besides speed really well. And none of your units do a fantastic job at killing eldar(Who now can all take cover saves because they're limey bastards).

If he brings Eldrad, and you brought psychic powers, you might as well just pack up if you play any marine themed army that isn't vanilla. I can't beat them as chaos without spamming our very best units(two daemon princes, twin lash, all plague marines, vindicators) It just gets boring. They are, in my opinion, simply unbeatable without really fantastic dice rolls.

They're good at everything, retardedly fast, and have no glaring weakness(Besides guardians 5+. But no good eldar player brings them) Expect to be doomed, bladestormed, and bansheed into oblivion if you really want to play dark angels.

Oh, wait, you're serious on fighting them?

Don't ever bring grenades of any kind. Don't bring useless power weapons(all of his units strike before ours. Bring power fists.)Their units ignore defensive grenades. Uhm, landspeeders with heavy bolters are pretty mean for getting around cover and into their flank. If you still have the option to, minxmas lasplas and hope for good rolls?

Dreadnoughts are mean as all hell and seem like a pretty fantastic cure for them...unless eldrad or farseers are hanging out as they strike at s9, eldrad with power weapons. Best of luck to you, and if you find any strategies, bring them back.


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## LeeHarvey

LordWaffles said:


> Dreadnoughts are mean as all hell and seem like a pretty fantastic cure for them...unless eldrad or farseers are hanging out as they strike at s9, eldrad with power weapons. Best of luck to you, and if you find any strategies, bring them back.


That seems like the very definition of "Overpowered". Let me know how a puny little Space Elf can realistically be nearly as strong as a Dreadnought.
Damn I hate the Eldar. I'm glad their race is dying. I hope it hurries up.

Personally I feel, and I know I'm gonna catch flak from the Eldar players for saying this but, the Eldar are the very epitome of a Cheesy army list. I remember how angry I got when the new codex came out and I saw how GW tweaked them to be the perfect Space Marine killers. Well, now the tables have turned, and the game boards across the world will be filled with Space Marines getting their well deserved payback against those arrogant Xenos fairies. I think this is the first time I've been glad the Space Marines are getting a new codex.


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## LordWaffles

LeeHarvey said:


> That seems like the very definition of "Overpowered". Let me know how a puny little Space Elf can realistically be nearly as strong as a Dreadnought.
> Damn I hate the Eldar. I'm glad their race is dying. I hope it hurries up.


They can do things like that because their book was written by a guy who PLAYS ELDAR. And I really hope the next codex they have reflects actual ability pointcosts and not this pile of crap. 



LeeHarvey said:


> Personally I feel, and I know I'm gonna catch flak from the Eldar players for saying this but, the Eldar are the very epitome of a Cheesy army list. I remember how angry I got when the new codex came out and I saw how GW tweaked them to be the perfect Space Marine killers. Well, now the tables have turned, and the game boards across the world will be filled with Space Marines getting their well deserved payback against those arrogant Xenos fairies. I think this is the first time I've been glad the Space Marines are getting a new codex.


No, they're the cheese armies dream. That's what they were meant to be, a nearly impossible to defeat army when played by someone who knows them. Problem being, not every tournament goer wants to play the goddamned space elves and their ridiculously point-effective troops. And yeah, as of the current dex they just OWN any meq unit they come across. "Oh sorry we're fleeting banshees into your eyes. Hope you don't mind." "Eldrad exists in some fashion and he's going to CANCEL YOUR POWERS AT ANY RANGE, cast a meellion beellion powers a turn, and never fail a psychic test" 
It's an army meant for people who can see two synergetic unit choices and pair them up at the cost of fluff, friends, and balance. It's just like playing warmachine. And I hate me some warmachine.

That being said. My only other applicable advice to help you is "Play another army. Like tyranids." or get used to drop pods.


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## LeeHarvey

You know Waffles, you bring up a good point. How does it make sense that Eldrad can negate his opponents psychic powers anywhere on the board yet GW has decided that a Psychic Hood, which does the same thing, is too powerful and unbalances the game so they reduce it's range to 24"? I think they (GW) need to pull their heads out of their asses and listen to their fans a little better.

Did I mention that I hate the Eldar?


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## Leaf

Avoid the Avatar at all cost!!! He is a best in Close combat.


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## Dessel_Ordo

Waffles, Harvey, I completely agree with you guys.

I play an Eldar player who is the epitome of a warmonger/powergamer. He used to bitch about marines becoming overpowered, untill he realized how to use his army (has 1 squad of all the aspects except for the hawks) is building th eldar death squad (not on jetbikes, thank the throne), and still claims marines are over-powered.

I have found a reasonable counter to Reapers if there is only 1 squad, deepstrike 10 termies with 2 assault cannons as close to them as possible, and shoot. they will die.

same thing for rangers, but a drop pod full of regular marines (or Sternguards) will suffice.

as for cc (not banshees) I have a crazy idea, but cant test it for a while, so pick at/give results to please: 6 assault terminators, 5 with claws, 1 with hammer/sheild. attatch a chaplain in termy armor with a pair of claws (no rules restrict him from doing this, unless GW epically nerfed him) to the squad; mount it in a Land Raider Redeemer (or Crusader) drive it up their asses, shoot/burn them. then have the termy death squad assault with furious charge, initiatives will be equal, with the way the cc chart works now, you should hit about 50% of the time... Litanies lets you re-roll to a 75-95% hit rate. there should be about 20 (of the 26 possible) hits, with the S to T difference, most of the hits should wound... lightning claws allow a re-eoll to wound; you should get all of your wounds now. there will be a few invuln saves, but most of the eldar should die. you can expect to loose 2-4 terminators in the kickback... the 3 attacks from the hammer will probably clean up whats left. A less dangerous squad (i.e. one without all power weapons) should do even worse against this.

maybe I'm brilliant, maybe I'm :crazy:insane:crazy:, how does that plan work?

as for banshees, hell, shoot the bastards, nothing else works when a squad of 10 power weapons and 4 attacks each goes at an Initiative of "me first no matter what BEEAAATCCCHCHCHCHCHCHCH!!!!!!!!!!"

damn I hope those damn elves die off first... or someone blows up their god-damne pyramid so that, well, I want Slanesh to rape their asses for all eternity, lets put it that way.:biggrin:


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## TheUnmarked

Under the new marines codex banshees should have a very hard time against thunder hammer storm shield combos as the termies will still get a 3+ save against them, and currently using Azrael with a good command squad still whips their arses (whole squad with 4+ invulnerable save to stop those power weapons)


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## Lord Reevan

basic scout squad, no upgrades or anything, cheap side of the combat squads, hodl up the banshees, they finsh them off and just stand there, then get shot to pieces, Firedragons are powerful but short range. Try and make them as slow as possible by getting rid of their transports, don't be afraid t oget into CC with most of their units. A lot aren't that good apart from Scorpions, Banshees and the HQs....


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## Zinj

LordWaffles said:


> They can do things like that because their book was written by a guy who PLAYS ELDAR. And I really hope the next codex they have reflects actual ability pointcosts and not this pile of crap.
> 
> 
> No, they're the cheese armies dream. That's what they were meant to be, a nearly impossible to defeat army when played by someone who knows them. Problem being, not every tournament goer wants to play the goddamned space elves and their ridiculously point-effective troops. And yeah, as of the current dex they just OWN any meq unit they come across. "Oh sorry we're fleeting banshees into your eyes. Hope you don't mind." "Eldrad exists in some fashion and he's going to CANCEL YOUR POWERS AT ANY RANGE, cast a meellion beellion powers a turn, and never fail a psychic test"
> It's an army meant for people who can see two synergetic unit choices and pair them up at the cost of fluff, friends, and balance. It's just like playing warmachine. And I hate me some warmachine.
> 
> That being said. My only other applicable advice to help you is "Play another army. Like tyranids." or get used to drop pods.


I thought about playing Tyranids, but I just like the way SMs look and the fluff is really cool too. A lot of these posts are pretty discouraging. all three guys that I'm going to be playing against on a regular basis play Eldar. None of them have another 40k army. I think 2 of them have a fantasy army, but I'm not really interested in fantasy. This sucks.



LeeHarvey said:


> That seems like the very definition of "Overpowered". Let me know how a puny little Space Elf can realistically be nearly as strong as a Dreadnought.
> Damn I hate the Eldar. I'm glad their race is dying. I hope it hurries up.
> 
> Personally I feel, and I know I'm gonna catch flak from the Eldar players for saying this but, the Eldar are the very epitome of a Cheesy army list. I remember how angry I got when the new codex came out and I saw how GW tweaked them to be the perfect Space Marine killers. Well, now the tables have turned, and the game boards across the world will be filled with Space Marines getting their well deserved payback against those arrogant Xenos fairies. I think this is the first time I've been glad the Space Marines are getting a new codex.



What do you mean about their race is dying? Is this some fluff? Are you refering to the thing about them being a big empire that got wittled away by their own decadence? How long has it been since the last Eldar codex, and is there a new on the way?

Also, I heard that the guy that wrote the new SM codex plays SMs. Is this true?


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## LordWaffles

Dessel_Ordo said:


> Waffles, Harvey, I completely agree with you guys.
> 
> I play an Eldar player who is the epitome of a warmonger/powergamer. He used to bitch about marines becoming overpowered, untill he realized how to use his army (has 1 squad of all the aspects except for the hawks) is building th eldar death squad (not on jetbikes, thank the throne), and still claims marines are over-powered.


See I don't mind our current eldar players because they're great sports about the entire fiasco of our armies fighting. It's just the codex is way too strong.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> I have found a reasonable counter to Reapers if there is only 1 squad, deepstrike 10 termies with 2 assault cannons as close to them as possible, and shoot. they will die.


I don't mind reapers, with so much cover, they're a liability.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> same thing for rangers, but a drop pod full of regular marines (or Sternguards) will suffice.


Rangers became a minor issue once lash got around to them but yeah, anything fast send at these guys.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> as for cc (not banshees) I have a crazy idea, but cant test it for a while, so pick at/give results to please: 6 assault terminators, 5 with claws, 1 with hammer/sheild. attatch a chaplain in termy armor with a pair of claws (no rules restrict him from doing this, unless GW epically nerfed him) to the squad; mount it in a Land Raider Redeemer (or Crusader) drive it up their asses, shoot/burn them. then have the termy death squad assault with furious charge, initiatives will be equal, with the way the cc chart works now, you should hit about 50% of the time... Litanies lets you re-roll to a 75-95% hit rate. there should be about 20 (of the 26 possible) hits, with the S to T difference, most of the hits should wound... lightning claws allow a re-eoll to wound; you should get all of your wounds now. there will be a few invuln saves, but most of the eldar should die. you can expect to loose 2-4 terminators in the kickback... the 3 attacks from the hammer will probably clean up whats left. A less dangerous squad (i.e. one without all power weapons) should do even worse against this.


See now this is the EXACT FUGGIN PROBLEM with eldar, point-effectiveness.
You have to take a 250 point land raider, and a 200-something point squad to deal with their 160ish points worth of frenzied marine killers that strike at initiative "Can't touch this" and ignore all grenades and everything. If I see more than a single squad of banshees and alot of cover on the table, I just say "GG buddy." because their's not a damn thing you can do to stop them. And chaos doesn't have any low-point units to deal with the problem. At best we can send 13 point daemons at it. Ooooh boy. I get to almost immediately lose a 130 point squad instead of my 200 point marine squads. Oh and they ran back into cover. Lovely.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> maybe I'm brilliant, maybe I'm :crazy:insane:crazy:, how does that plan work?


You'll stop the banshees but they'll have earned their points back threefold.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> as for banshees, hell, shoot the bastards, nothing else works when a squad of 10 power weapons and 4 attacks each goes at an Initiative of "me first no matter what BEEAAATCCCHCHCHCHCHCHCH!!!!!!!!!!"


I'm beggining to not question the logic of just firing bolters at them. Even with rerollable saves we might kill THREE OR FOUR. God. It's just so stupidly point effective.



Dessel_Ordo said:


> damn I hope those damn elves die off first... or someone blows up their god-damned pyramid so that, well, I want Slaanesh to rape their asses for all eternity, lets put it that way.:biggrin:


I want their next codex treated like a chaos marine one "Wtf is this? *ERASES ENTIRE ENTRIES* Good."



Zinj said:


> I thought about playing Tyranids, but I just like the way SMs look and the fluff is really cool too. A lot of these posts are pretty discouraging. all three guys that I'm going to be playing against on a regular basis play Eldar. None of them have another 40k army. I think 2 of them have a fantasy army, but I'm not really interested in fantasy. This sucks.


It does suck. And you WILL lose about eighty percent of the games you play for awhile. But evantually you figure things out, you get better, you stop including army list with rube choices(Dunno any space marine ones, but for chaos it's possessed, spawn, and dreadnoughts).
And my apologies if I have a very low opinion of dark angels. They just never struck me as a challenge to beat.




Zinj said:


> What do you mean about their race is dying? Is this some fluff? Are you refering to the thing about them being a big empire that got wittled away by their own decadence? How long has it been since the last Eldar codex, and is there a new on the way?


They breed very slowly, the ships are unrepairable, the soul gem/whatevers are fading. It's in the fluff that the eldar ARE dying off, albeit too slowly in my, and everyone elses opinion. I'm hoping a new one is on the way, but they recently updated...two years ago? 2006?



Zinj said:


> Also, I heard that the guy that wrote the new SM codex plays SMs. Is this true?


Thankfully yes. They made a strong, but costly dex. And alot of your options are very anti eldar.
Problem being if you play dark angels, space wolves, blood angels, or black templar, you never get to see these upgrades. And out of all those choices, the only ones I'd DREAM of attacking eldar with is Black templar. Ten point ablative wounds ftw!


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## Zinj

I think I'm pretty much sold on using the new marine codex and just using the Dark Angel models. I figure I'll paint my army like the Ravenwing bike squad. (Black armor, white trim & iconography, cream robes)

Now if my Codexes will just come in the mail, I can buy some more figures to flesh my army out. 

I almost got a huge DA army off ebay last night for 100 bucks, but got out bid in the last 15 secs by 2 bucks.

Next time I order from GW, I'm either ordering 100 bucks worth or I'm paying the overnight cost. This waiting is killing me.


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## LeeHarvey

Patience is a virtue my good man.:biggrin: I understand how you feel. If you are in the USA, just wait till you order something from Forge World, talk about a long wait.


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## Morgal

Back to the OP.

To beat Eldar you need to know the Eldar.
I would ask to borrow there codex after a game or just ask the player.

Your space marines are good at everything. 
A space marine will win in shooting vs eldar assault units.
A space marine will win in CC with shooty units.

So you need to know what units of his to do what to.

the eldar are very specialized, they have units that are very good at beating marines in close combat. These you want to avoid and shoot to death.

They also have units that have lots of fire power, you want to charge your termies or even plain marines into them.

One problem with this is the eldar are very fast, while you are very tough. So they can often move such that they choose who assault whats. It is your challenge to ensure that you make his choices hard and ensure he can't do what he wants(ie let his range shoot you and his CC, CC you....
you want his shooters to be locked in CC, and his CC troops to be forced to shoot as they are to far away.

Also Smurfs are Ultramarines since they are blue.


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## KellysGrenadier

I heard that, when fighting Eldar, keeping your army in a phalanx'esque formation is one of the keys of beating them. Apparently they prey on exposed, solitary units, and pick apart such units systematically.

Try keep your Marines in a tight, solid formation, forcing them to fight all of them, not some of them.


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## crabpuff

Bad idea because then they become exposed to the shooty units. Mix a DA Bladestorm with a farseer's doom/Guide. Dark Reapers will tear them up from a distance and so will the Rangers/pathfinders the list goes on. All they would have to do is shoot you to pieces and leave off their CC units until your units have been whittled down. The key has been said several times make the units do something they are not meant too. Its all about tactics, plus some good rolls.


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## Zinj

I almost bought an Eldar Codex last night, but I wasn't sure if it was the most current one.

That's definitely going to be my next purchase.


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## Morgal

Zinj said:


> I almost bought an Eldar Codex last night, but I wasn't sure if it was the most current one.
> 
> That's definitely going to be my next purchase.


Well a codex is a good buy, but it can't replace experiance.

Since your friends are experianced and i would assume they want you to have fun they should have no issue's explaining there units.

Also after a few games you will see very quickly what happens when unit x assaults yu and you will say "well I don't want that to happen again, i'm going to shoot them and fall back while doing it so they can't assault."

Or 

"wow unit x's shooting killed over 6 marines, i can't leave them alone and my termies are so going to eat them next time"

So don't see the first games as losses but look at what happened and what did what.
the best tool for this is to write a battle report as it forces you to examine each turn.

you can also read others reports,
once you have a few games w/ reports the fine folks here will be able to give you specific advice more specific than "kill em before they kill you"


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## Zinj

Morgal said:


> Well a codex is a good buy, but it can't replace experiance.
> 
> Since your friends are experianced and i would assume they want you to have fun they should have no issue's explaining there units.
> 
> Also after a few games you will see very quickly what happens when unit x assaults yu and you will say "well I don't want that to happen again, i'm going to shoot them and fall back while doing it so they can't assault."
> 
> Or
> 
> "wow unit x's shooting killed over 6 marines, i can't leave them alone and my termies are so going to eat them next time"
> 
> So don't see the first games as losses but look at what happened and what did what.
> the best tool for this is to write a battle report as it forces you to examine each turn.
> 
> you can also read others reports,
> once you have a few games w/ reports the fine folks here will be able to give you specific advice more specific than "kill em before they kill you"


So what's a battle report? Just a run down of what took place each turn?

Is there a template that I can print out and fill out or something?

It seems kind of anal-retentive, but I'd really like to have a reference of each of my previous battles to look over.

Also, does anyone have a sample battle report that I could read? (preferebly SM vs Eldar)


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## LeeHarvey

I don't have a battle report for you but some useful advice. Keep a small notepad with you when you play and write down the notable occurances during a game, that way when it's over you can go over your notes and use them to help formulate new tactics.


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## Zinj

LeeHarvey said:


> I don't have a battle report for you but some useful advice. Keep a small notepad with you when you play and write down the notable occurances during a game, that way when it's over you can go over your notes and use them to help formulate new tactics.


That's what I thought a battle report would be. I would love a template to mass produce for every scenario I play.

I can't believe how addictive this hobby is. It's so much more than just a "game".


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## Morgal

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22

there are some sites that let you write a battle report w/ pictures and such(ms paint).

honestly i just say

your list
His List

somw witty comments, and plans

Brief board desription

set up, who one first set up. where you put your guys how he set up his.


turn 1

who moved, then who shot, who died
who assaulted, who died

repeat


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