# Raven Guard vs Night Lords (pre Horus Heresey)



## Lux

Pre hh, the emperor calls for corax and instructs him personally that he wants him and his legion to whipe out the nightlords and konrad.

The emperor shortly after summons konrad and instructs him that he wants him and his legion to whipe out the raven guard for heresey.

Both the raven guard and nightlords are located in the eastern fringe, and are hunting one another under the premise that they must anihilate the other for the emperor.

So I have several questions for all of you....

1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


----------



## gen.ahab

Just want to say this makes no sense but.....

#1 None are noted for being all that good at ship to ship so I say the raven guard. 

#2 Raven Guard. 

#3 Raven Guard.

#4 They are both stealth/ guerilla warfare so it will be a shit storm of one dude ambushing the other while being ambushed performing an ambush.

#5 Long protracted cluster fuck but I see the raven guard winning simply because they are suppose to be the masters of stealth and terror probably wont work.

#6 Raven Guard, better at combat.

#7 Corax.... the sob could become virtually invisible. Corax, kruze would just give up again.

#8 Corax, he was suppose to be one of the best fighters of the Primarchs.

#9 IDK

Yeah, Night Lords are great against targets such as imperial worlds but against a target who is better at you are at stealth combat and your terror tactics are rendered almost mute.... your are in for a bad day.


----------



## Lux

I've noticed some say the night lords lose effectiveness versus another legion due to fear being minimized. However fear is ever present and space marines are not immune to its effects, psychological warfare is what the nightlords exceel in, fear is a tool that effects those who think they are immune to it, more so then those who are openly terrorized by it.


----------



## gen.ahab

It effects them but they are just trained not to let it hamper their combat effectiveness. Their neurochemistry has been changed so dramatically that to attempt to beat them in such a manor would be all but useless. It's simply not an effective tactic. When fighting other marines, the night lords have lost their edge.


----------



## Lux

The same can be said about stealth, that space marines due to their superiority, stealth against them loses their edge, the same stance can be taken for any dimensional approach...

Fear isn't about scaring an individual, it is about manipulating them to do an action or to have a lack of action. Konrad, and the nightlords are masters of this, fear would be employed in such a manner as influencing the ravens to attack, or not to attack, and once in combat, to influence their perception. The nightlords would actively be influencing the ravens perception of the battle, false sense of victory, inaccurate numbers, battle reports tweaked, and as the ravens fight on and slowly or quickly see and experience that their perception and reality do not coincide that is what effects them and influences them.

Its not about saying boo and making them run, no...fear is about shaping the paradigm and reality or lack there of reality of your target/s.

Space marines are in no way immune to this, and going by what the heresey showed, are even more vulnerable and effected by cognitive shaping then normal civilians are.


----------



## gen.ahab

That's standard missdirecting tactics.... Not terror warfare. Raven guard have the beat in that respect and no it can't be said about all aspects of combat. A stealth attack doesn't hinge upon your ability to ware down the enemy. Trying to use ambush and hit and run tactics against the Raven Guard would be like trying to ambush a ghost. You managed to pick the one loyalist legion that does what thy do better than them.


----------



## Lux

I've never heard of misdirecting tactics...what I just described is what I called it...cognitive shaping, paradigm influence. Its psychological warfare and that is what the nightlords specialize in, partocularly versus humanoids which are what the ravens are. Civilians, space marines, primarchs, the emperor, all adhered to human in nature and all were and are deply affected by human psychological perceptions.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Lux said:


> So I have several questions for all of you....
> 
> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?
> 
> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
> 
> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
> 
> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
> 
> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
> 
> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?
> 
> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
> 
> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
> 
> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


1) Raven Gaurd are not known for ship egagements neither NLs, tie.

2) Tie again. RG are about small egagements, NLs are are about Hit and Runs on superior larger forces. Both never really commit large forces to a single battle.

3) Tie Again, RG and NLs do this almost as much as Alpha Legion.

4) This is easy, NLs all the way. NLs are always taking it to the enemy, thats terror tatics, where RG are use to running and hiding. 

5) NLs would win in a drag out fight. They are more aggressive by nature and their terror tatics will drain what little resolve the RG can muster. Its either a short bout with NLs or be worn down mentaly and physicaly.

6) Depends, RG and NLs typically use Jump Packs and its anyones guess.

7) This is pointless as neither one will assassinate the other.

8) Night Haunter punked out Dorn, and unlike Corax been brought up fighting his entire life. Corax was describe as a very slim Primarch and seeing as how there is little to know info on Corax to remark on I give it to Conrad everyday.

9) I give this to NLs again as they have beaten the odds and still reign more victories than RG can account for in the Fluff. The RG were decimated in the Heresy and continue to be in limit numbers in 40k. NLs through numberes and resources win everyday.



gen.ahab said:


> Just want to say this makes no sense but.....
> 
> #1 None are noted for being all that good at ship to ship so I say the raven guard.
> 
> #2 Raven Guard.
> 
> #3 Raven Guard.
> 
> #4 They are both stealth/ guerilla warfare so it will be a shit storm of one dude ambushing the other while being ambushed performing an ambush.
> 
> #5 Long protracted cluster fuck but I see the raven guard winning simply because they are suppose to be the masters of stealth and terror probably wont work.
> 
> #6 Raven Guard, better at combat.
> 
> #7 Corax.... the sob could become virtually invisible. Corax, kruze would just give up again.
> 
> #8 Corax, he was suppose to be one of the best fighters of the Primarchs.
> 
> #9 IDK
> 
> Yeah, Night Lords are great against targets such as imperial worlds but against a target who is better at you are at stealth combat and your terror tactics are rendered almost mute.... your are in for a bad day.


Have you ever heard of Night Haunter? Guess not.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Lux said:


> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?
> As people have said neither was known for being particularly skilled or unskilled at such fighting
> 
> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
> As above- The Raven Guard are renowned for their Guerilla Tactics, being one of the more successful Legions in the Great Crusade (despite Horus claiming a large number of their victories as his own) but operate in small units similar to the NL
> 
> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
> Infiltration and Sabotage are the hallmarks of the Raven Guard, the Night Lord are very able at all those tasks as well but not to the degree that the RG are
> 
> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
> Both will be constantly acting offensively, the 2 Legion's M.O emphasises attack and infiltration over defence.
> 
> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
> With both Legions being guerilla forces I can see the war dragging on for years or decades, but in the end I'd give it to the Raven Guard as they're perfectly trained for such drawn out affairs.
> 
> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?
> I'd actually give it to the Night Lords in most cases cause I think one on one they're just nastier.
> 
> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
> Both are uniquely skilled at assassination and avoidance thereof, I'd say it was even in terms of ability to avoid being killed but Kurze holds the advantage due to his background on being the killer.
> 
> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
> Konrad Curze hands down- he's a brutal combatant, a monster almost and whilst I wouldn't fancy his chances against someone like Russ, Angron or Horus he's more than capable, in my opinion, of taking down Corax.
> 
> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).
> Corax- he was raised to be the consumate Guerilla Leader, Night Haunter was taught the power of Fear & distrust so when it comes to large battles I'll take Deliverance's Son over Nostramo's.


That's my viewpoint- The Raven Guard/Alpha Legion (and their respective Primarchs) would be exactly the worst Legions for the Ngiht Lords to attack.


----------



## gen.ahab

Lux said:


> I've never heard of misdirecting tactics...what I just described is what I called it...cognitive shaping, paradigm influence. Its psychological warfare and that is what the nightlords specialize in, partocularly versus humanoids which are what the ravens are. Civilians, space marines, primarchs, the emperor, all adhered to human in nature and all were and are deply affected by human psychological perceptions.


Terror tactics are only one aspect of psychological warfare. Again, they are all effected but with the changed to their neuro chemistry it would seem that a SM would be even less so than the run of the mill human. You can say it as much as you want but raven guard live for this kind of warfare, it would be much less effective on them.

@ warlock, you seem to know little to nothing about the raven guard so I wouldn't talk.


----------



## Lux

Gen ahab, I smile when I wake up, knowing that at the very least I usually will have you and baron von spikey to reply to. Thus never a boring thread


----------



## Warlock in Training

gen.ahab said:


> @ warlock, you seem to know little to nothing about the raven guard so I wouldn't talk.


Well how about pointing me to some BL books or SM fluff the Raven Gaurd are in... hmmm.. I cant seem to find any anywhere, just some Background on Corax. Hell the only time Raven Gaurd are mention is after there Legion was nearly wiped out in the Dropsite Massacre. What happen with that Legion after that? Whole lot nothin. 

Gen.ahab I wouldnt talk neither.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Warlock in Training said:


> Well how about pointing me to some BL books or SM fluff the Raven Gaurd are in... hmmm.. I cant seem to find any anywhere, just some Background on Corax. Hell the only time Raven Gaurd are mention is after there Legion was nearly wiped out in the Dropsite Massacre. What happen with that Legion after that? Whole lot nothin.
> 
> Gen.ahab I wouldnt talk neither.


_Cadian Blood_ by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, _Chapter's Due_ by Graham McNeill, and they'll feature heavily in _The Hunt for Voldorius_ by Andy Hoare.

5th Edition _Codex: Space Marines_-Pg.42-43, Pg.92

Index Astartes: Raven Guard

How about doing some basic checking before you get all pissy?


----------



## gen.ahab

Yeah... Except they are mentioned in quite afew black library books, cadian blood for one and I believe they have their own audio book, raven flight maybe? I aware of what Kruze did and what he specialized in and Corax and the Raven Guard were the masters of guerrilla warfare. They beat the nightlords hand down in that respect. Oh and perhaps you should check out he sm codex and maybe the index astartes I am sure there is something.


----------



## gen.ahab

Oppp. I see the baron has me covered. Lol


----------



## Lux

Hmmm this has been a very enlightening experience.

What about kurze vs corax? In primarch vs primarch fight, what do you think? I know corax has semi invisibility by being able to cloud the minds of those he chooses....but if it is so powerful why was corax so fearful of fighting angron, and believed angron would kill him decisively if they were to fight, could he not be invisible to angron and stealthfully head shot him or decapitate him?

This is why I believe kurze could kill corax in a straight up duel.


----------



## gothik

personally with the traits that both night lords and raven guard being similiar, both use the darkness as thier allies, when both attack theres no escaping it and despite corax being not as well built as some of his other brothers i am sure he more then makes up for it.
always seen corax as edgar allen poe type personage..anyway i think it would be a tie all the way not one better and not one worse and in a stand up fight between the two...i'd have to say they might maul each other but seeing as Konrad almost took out Dorn i'd have to go with him although it would be close call


----------



## Warlock in Training

Baron Spikey said:


> _Cadian Blood_ by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, _Chapter's Due_ by Graham McNeill, and they'll feature heavily in _The Hunt for Voldorius_ by Andy Hoare.
> 
> 5th Edition _Codex: Space Marines_-Pg.42-43, Pg.92
> 
> Index Astartes: Raven Guard
> 
> How about doing some basic checking before you get all pissy?


Please Baron it takes more than internet talk talk about space men to get me pissy :laugh:. Like getting shot in real life :so_happy:. 

Anyway Ive read 5th Ed SM Dex. The fluff there is small and pitiful. 
As for the BL Books you tell me there "Featured" in these 3 books. Thats still very little fluff to base them on anything. Do they even sell Index Astartes still? So far thats the only heavy and reliable fluff. 

Thanks for proving my point as I did the research. The fact is there is so little fluff on Pre Heresy on DG, RG, WS, and IH that its pathetic. :wink:

Im hoping that with these niffty smile Icons people wont mistake my intnetions as both you have.


----------



## Lux

I still dont't see why the RG outclass the NL's in near everything as some say they do....where is the fluff stating as warlock has brought up, stating that they outshine the nightlords in near everything they do?....

Also ahab my dear.....you say the nightlords wouldn't be able to hit the rg's as its like attacking a ghost? Would it not be the same for the rg's? Both legions are masters of stealth, hit and run, and I see no reason why the rg's would be better at it....seems like a toss up to me.

Now as for the nightlords being less effective vs astartes....has this ever been stated in canon by narrator? Terror tactics is as effective vs vs astartes as it is non astartes. Terror tactics does not = scare your opponent, terror tactics = disruption. And if you tell me astartes are inherently more resilliant to disruption, which they are not as the heresey showed, then the same can be said astartes are herently more resilliant to siege warfare, to guerilla tactics, to shock warefare, etc.

Being phiosologically more resilliant to the neurological transmitters which chemically cause the sensation of fear biologically, in no way reduces the effect terror tactics and psychological warfare has upon said individual and or masses of them.

Ever see case studies done on individuals who are emotionally "dead", or to be more precise lack the phsiological receptors in their brain to properly experience fear and the other primary six emotions? Fear still effects them, even more so, as that lack of fear or blunted experience/perception of it, often leads them, pulls them to lethal situations/ends statistically more often then a "normal" individual.

The rg is no more a master of stealth, hit and run, sabotage, and so forth than the nl's are. 

What it comes down to are tactics, not numbers in this match up, as both legions are small. So the question is, which legion will be able to break the other legion first, or starve them by cutting off their supply lines, or strike at vital points. Too many variables, but for the sake of this threads point which is to spark meaningful discussion and perceive a myriad of different individuals perceptive viewpoints, I will say after a long war the nightlords will come out alive with the ravenguard broken beyond repair.


----------



## gen.ahab

Warlock in Training said:


> Please Baron it takes more than internet talk talk about space men to get me pissy :laugh:. Like getting shot in real life :so_happy:.
> 
> Anyway Ive read 5th Ed SM Dex. The fluff there is small and pitiful.
> As for the BL Books you tell me there "Featured" in these 3 books. Thats still very little fluff to base them on anything. Do they even sell Index Astartes still? So far thats the only heavy and reliable fluff.
> 
> Thanks for proving my point as I did the research. The fact is there is so little fluff on Pre Heresy on DG, RG, WS, and IH that its pathetic. :wink:
> 
> Im hoping that with these niffty smile Icons people wont mistake my intnetions as both you have.


They don't need to be the stars, although they do have their own book, for you to learn what you need. Just read around.


----------



## gen.ahab

@lux,
heresy astartes and post-heresy astartes are two very different breads of beast. The training and recruitment of post-heresy astartes is much harder than the training and recruitment of pre-heresy astartes. And of course you say NL would win.... You say they always win. For de ar duper! Eeeee! RG are the masters of stealth. Take my word at what you will but when the fluff expert is telling you they are then they are. This is probably the worst matchup for the nl that is possible other than the alpha legion.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Lux said:


> Pre-Heresy, the Emperor calls for Corax and instructs him personally that he wants him and his legion to wipe out the Night Lords and Konrad.
> 
> The Emperor shortly after summons Konrad and instructs him that he wants him and his legion to whipe out the Raven Guard for heresy.
> 
> Both the Raven Guard and Night Lords are located in the Eastern Fringe, and are hunting one another under the premise that they must annihilate the other for the Emperor.
> 
> So I have several questions for all of you....
> 
> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship to ship?
> 
> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
> 
> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
> 
> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
> 
> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
> 
> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which will win?
> 
> 7. And finally, Corax vs Night Haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
> 
> 8. Corax vs Konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
> 
> 9. Which Primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


1. Night Lords. They are more versed in ship to ship combat then the Raven Guard, and hit and run are a lot harder to pull off in space so the Raven Guard would be at a disadvantage.

2. Night Lords. The Raven Guard's hit and run tactics would not work well against the Night Lords aggressive terror tactics and both Legions are adept at stealth so it turns back to the original tactics. Both Legions did not make use of heavy armour so it would be a contest of Space Marines rather then tanks.

3. It'd be about even. Night Lords are excellent at stealth but the end goal is to reveal themselves. Raven Guard are excellent at stealth as well but can overuse it. If anything i'd say Night Lords are at a bit of an advantage since they can utilize darkness better then the Raven Guard.

4. Night Lords. Their doctrines are more martial then the Raven Guard who rely on fluidity of movement for their formations and stick to hit and run attacks. Night Lords can use aggressive assault and stealthy defence.

5. The Night Lords would win a drag out war because their terror tactics would wear down the Raven Guard. That and stealth tactics don't really work against masters of stealth so the Raven Guard's primary tactics would be ineffective.

6. Night Lords are more brutal then the Raven Guard so I doubt any would escape in a fight, sometimes it would come down to sheer power and luck but overall i'd say Night Lords would win.

7. Hmm Corax could turn himself invisible but I wonder how a Primarch would respond to that. Maybe they would still be able to sense him, im not sure on that one. But if the assassination was discovered and it turned into a fight then Curze would win.

8. Curze. No question. Konrad Curze beat Rogal Dorn half to death when he was dazed out, if he was focused then just imagine what he could do. Corax would be killed.

9. Konrad Curze. In _Raven's Flight_ Corax undertakes missions without his generals even knowing, shows a lack of communication and communication is essential to good tactics. Curze seems to be a much better tactician judging from his battles.


Not easy questions considering both the Night Lords and Raven Guard Legions used similar tactics. But since the Night Lords are a more aggressive Legion and did not rely on stealth as their primary tactic, and were capable of bringing a fearsome assault to bear rather then hit and run attacks I believe they are the superior Legion.


----------



## Aramoro

Yes yes we get it you have a hard on for Night Lords Lux. But try to just look at things objectively. 

Astartes are just better at fighting wars, they are better are all kinds of warfare than normal men, they're psycho conditioned to not feel fear at all. You can no more scare and Astarte than you can scare a Tyrinid Warrior. Night Lords are good at terrifying their opponents by their sheer brutality. That is not going to work on Astartes so it comes down to straight martial ability. Raven Guard are more used to stealth and covert tactics as they do not rely on terror to do part of their job for them. 

Aramoro


----------



## Lux

I don't have a hard on for nightlords.......

And I very much do listen to what you say ahab and von spikey, as you two always comment in my threads, so I respectfully enjoy communicating with you two as well as all others.

..but to expect me to simply adhere to the opinions and perceptions of those who are in the minds of some, held in reverence due to their grasp of fluff....just is not realistic. I have my own active perceptions, as well as influential paradigm....and to ask me to simply discard it in favor of yours or anothers is not...effecient by any means. I do listen to all you and all others say, and I do incorporate the many varying facets of others into my own already existing paradigm...so I do not ignore you or discard what you have to say...no it is much more the opposite I very much respect what you have to say and how you view the material.

However no where in canon is it stated the ravenguard is superior to the nightlords in stealth, hit and run, martial doctrine. Argument can be made the nightlords are superior in martial doctrine compare to the ravenguards lose command structure and lack of primrch leading.

Additionally no where in the fluff is it stated that the nightlords are less effective vs astartes....no where is it stated that psychological warfare, terror tactics, which does not hinge upon scaring your opponent with brutality, it is based upon disrupting the command communication flow of your opponent, are less effective vs astartes.

The argument and stance that terror tactics, psychological warfare, disruption tactics, is less effective vs astartes...is purely speculation based upon a fallible human opinion...as all our stances are.


----------



## gen.ahab

It doesn't have to specifically state it. Other than they shall have no fear and the description of their training and selection. And it does state, idk where, that the RG are the masters of stealth.


----------



## High_Seraph

in the space marine codex it states that the raven gaurd has a loose command structure with formidiable discipline not a lack of it.


----------



## Lux

I never said it does not state that the rg are masters of stealth, it states the nightlords are masters of stealth too. No where does it state that the rg are superior to the nightlords in stealth mastery or warfare.

However..you are the one making the claim that nightlords are less effective versus astartes. You are also the one making the claim that a space marine being phsiologically conditioned to be fearless equates to being resilliant or immune to psychological warfare, terror warefare and disruption tactics....which it does not, and unless you can prove this with fluff material...it is but unsubstantiated opinion...which is fine but just making sure were clear that it is nothing but opinion and not fact, and should not be proclaimed as fact.


----------



## gen.ahab

There is a story, from the marine codex I believe, that tell of an a group of marines who were cut off from their group fighting for well over 200 days with no sleep and maintain combat effectiveness. This shows that Marines do not respond to stressors like a human. As you know, psycological warfare works by putting stress on the enemy for a long period of time in order to impair their judgement making abilities and confuse them. This instance shows that marines at atleast resistant. Marines are trained to endure unimaginable stresses and still maintain combat effectiveness.


----------



## Sir Whittaker

It seems alot of people misunderstand the NL and RG approach to battle (especially NL). It’s not just the ‘good fast attack guys’ versus the ‘bad fast attack guys’. Though both the NL and RG both utilise highly mobile forces, the reason behind their use is very different. 

I’m no expert on the RG, but from what I understand they’re the epitome of a hit and run force, partially because of their Primarch’s upbringing on Lycaeus and his guerrilla war against his Kiavahr overlords, and because of their limited numbers after the dropsite massacre at Istvaan V meant the RG couldn’t stand in large engagements so used sneak attacks to defeat much larger and formidable foes. They hit fast and hard against key points before they are ready for an attack, or attacked secondary targets to lessen resistance at more important ones, vanishing before the enemy can inflict major casualties or gather their senses.

I may not know a great deal about the RG, but I do know plenty about the NL. Almost all of their methods of war come from their Primarch and what he learned about the human race on Nostramo; humanity is not intrinsically good, and unless there are severe consequences will act inhumanely. The NL provided these consequences. They used fast and decisive strikes to sow discord and confusion when it suited, other times brute force was the NL modus operandi. Part of the reason the NL were so feared was because they often used far more force than a situation required.

Both forces used hit and run tactics to achieve their aims, the RG more so I believe, because it is how they practise war (not that they can’t stand in a pitched battle), the NL utilise stealth and quick strikes specifically to sow unease. When a predator stalks his prey it makes the kill quickly, only in the case of the NL, the prey know the predator is there, somewhere... The main difference between the NL and RG is the NL want you to know they are or were there, the RG don’t.

Both armies use psychological warfare, the RG use their guerrilla tactics to sap morale in prolonged engagements, but you’d find it hard to argue that the NL weren’t by far the superior fighting force amongst all eighteen Legions in this department.

Whilst on the subject on astartes and psychology, I will state now, in my opinion, they do feel and suffer detrimental effects of fear. Astartes do have emotions, and anything that feels any emotion can be afraid. The Primarchs feared a great many things, (the collapse of the Imperium, hostile warp entities, even Night Haunter himself) and regular astartes are less than they. It is not, however, the same kind of feeling a guardsman, for example, would feel. In ‘The Dark King’ Night Haunter refers to the fear astartes feel as ‘bottled lightning in the marrow’ or something similar. An astartes would never be rendered a weeping heap because he’s so terrified of the NL, terrified screams over his vox won’t bother him too much; he could be misdirected, confused, and made wary by them. 

So, to actually answer the original post, in my opinion the RG are superior at guerrilla warfare, infiltration, small scale espionage, all that stuff (unless the majority of the fighting took place on a world/worlds that had prolonged nights) , the NL would be better at the large battles. Night Haunter would put a beat down on Corax in a fight, but is certainly not his better at assassination (if it came to that I’d imagine Night Haunter would allow himself to be killed, a fellow Primarch murdering him serves his point much better than a callidus assassin). 

In the end, like every one of these ‘who would win’ scenarios, it ultimately comes down to circumstance. What I want to know is which Primarch could hold his breath the longest?


----------



## gen.ahab

I don't know who thought differently but yeah, most of us knew all that. Lol nice explenation though. Lol and to answer your question, RUSS! I bet you a pint of fenrisian ale on that! Lol


----------



## Lux

I also believe that astartes experience fear, and all emotions in full spectrum and depth. Astartes are not immune to emotion or blunted to them, they experience them in full as any other does, the difference is that they experience them differently in comparison to a civilian, not less so.

This was shown by how much dorns fear of konrad effected him, and no astartes is more resilliant than a primarch.

Secondly for the example of marines fighting for 200 days, yes that is chronic stress, the nightlords as the above poster concisely outlined, use extreme acute stress, which is far more devastating psychologically harmful than low grade chronic stress.

Whittaker, what is your viewpoint on konrads tactics? And let's for sake of the thread assume kurze won't allow himself to be killed but is fighting with all he has to beat corax and his legion.

Do you believe kurze would be able to kill corax on the field? What about corax invisibility? And does haunter have psyker powers, tht can be used offensively?


----------



## gen.ahab

We don't know he had psykic powers, there is no proof of it. Long term stress had no effect. I assume acute stress might have some effect but it would be far less than that of a human. The difference between a normal human and an astartes is in how they process different things. They have the fight or flight response but they do not have fear. I don't even know if kurze could take down corax, the only reason we have to believe he is good is that he managed to take down a supprised dorn who wasn't noted as being the best fighter.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> I don't know who thought differently but yeah, most of us knew all that. Lol nice explenation though. Lol and to answer your question, RUSS! I bet you a pint of fenrisian ale on that! Lol



Weren't you the one who was arguing nightlords would be less effective vs astartes....and that astartes would be inherently resilliant to the nl's style of psychological warfare....

No astartes, no primarch is immune or inherently resilliant to that type of warfare...one can not be immune to disorganization, fear, as both the fluff has shown that astartes feel fear like lightening in their marrow...and how dorn truly feared kurze and how it effected him psychologically....I in no way believe astartes are resilliant to the nl style of warfare and the fluff does not support that they are....contrastingly it supports that they aren't resilliant to it and that both primarch and astartes is highly vulnerable to it...


----------



## gen.ahab

Dorn was a pussy for one. And there is a huge difference between a primarch and a sm. What evidence do you have for a marine lossing combat effectiveness when presented with fear? Which most don't even feel in battle. In fact, you have provided no back ups for your stance where as I have provided several points which show my point. And yes marines feel some degree of fear in that they have the fight of flight response but fear does not effect them as it would a normal human. Terror would be useless. Confusion would be less effective and as would tactics meant to disorganize. We have ever reason to believe marines would be resistant to such tactics and no reason to believe they wouldn't.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> We don't know he had psykic powers, there is no proof of it. Long term stress had no effect. I assume acute stress might have some effect but it would be far less than that of a human. The difference between a normal human and an astartes is in how they process different things. They have the fight or flight response but they do not have fear. I don't even know if kurze could take down corax, the only reason we have to believe he is good is that he managed to take down a supprised dorn who wasn't noted as being the best fighter.


All these examples you use of astartes being resilliant to fear and psychological manipulation...is from astartes vs non astartes battles...

The psychological warfare deployed by kurze is a different tier then what others employ.

Its the same as saying the ravenguards guerilla, and stealth tactics will be extremely less effective vs the nl's since they are masters of both as well and arguably more so at stealth and night warfare. So now the rg are fighting with no true edge as the nl's are so resilliant to this type of warfare, from being an astartes who pshyiologically due to heightened senses reduces the enemy from ambushing them or being sneaked up on.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> Dorn was a pussy for one. And there is a huge difference between a primarch and a sm. What evidence do you have for a marine lossing combat effectiveness when presented with fear? Which most don't even feel in battle.



You are the one stating astartes are immune to fear or so greatly resilliant to it, that it barely effects them....you would need to be the one to provide substantial evidence that this is so..not I.

What fluff am I using to show that they do feel fear in full force when it is from an equal or greater source then they? For one as whit stated, the astartes stated they felt like lightening in their marrow. That by all means is not a reduced experienced of fear, that description is one of fully being effected by fear. Secondly primarchs from whom the astartes were made from, experienced fear, dorn truly feared kurze to the point where it interfered with his psychological perception and actions. Corax feared enaging angron in battle and feared he would be killed. Astartes felt fear when their primsarch was in danger of being killed.

There is far more fluff supporting astartesand primarchs ezperience fear in full array when it is presented from an equal or greater source than they, than there is fluff stating they don't or are resillint to it.

Of course an astartes doesn't display fear vs non astartes, they aren't an equal threat as they. However when they face othr astartes, or a primarch has the fluff shown they fear in full array? Yes.


----------



## gen.ahab

Experience and effect are two very different things. Being effected would be panic or letting it break plans. Never said they don't experiance it, sure they can to some extent. But it is processed differently. And yes made from but totaly different. How were they both brought up? Were primarchs getting the same training? No. Marines are brought up from a young age to be what they are. Primarchs arn't. Also, fear of lossing a primarch and fear of death or pain in battle are different.


----------



## Sir Whittaker

In 'The Dark King' Curze destroys the light globes with a psychic shockwave. He also exuded a palpable sense of fear, that even caused Primarchs to be uneasy around him. I think all Primarchs were psychic, they were made from warp energy after all, some were just more aware of it than others and could manifest it. 

Ultimately we have very little to go on in terms of Primarchs and abilities in various fields, these two in particular. When I say Curze would beat Corax, I'm going on the evidence that Curze, whilst afflicted by his visions, ripped chunks from a fellow Primarch. Corax may have wiped the floor with Curze for all we know. 

I agree and disagree with both Lux and gen.ahab in terms of the whole astartes and fear relationship. I agree with Lux in that they do feel fear, and it does effect them, but also with gen.ahab in that they are physically (heart rate, adrenaline production, combat drugs) and psychologically (congnative reasoning, stoic belief in the Emperor, more combat drugs) conditioned to be less effected by it.

Also, in reply to Lux, I believe that the NL tactics would much the same as they always were, and that they would be effective, but I'm not sure to what degree.


----------



## Lux

I can agree for a middle ground with ahab, in the way Whit put it...

However, whit, what is your view on how the nightlords fare against other astartes legions then, since you say astartes and primarcsh both feel fear, but are conditioned to be less effected by it....would you say the nightlords inherently perform less then against other astartes legions then the other legions do?

What I mean by this is....my view is that all astartes legions perform less then their best when versus other astartes, due to that all astartes are psychologically and physically conditioned to be more resilliant to the many varying types of warefare. So if astartes are less effected by the nightlords fear tactics, then I also believe that astartes are less effected by guerilla warfare due to their martial training and combat prowness and experience. And so forth with all the legions fields of expertise....

Do you agree with this whit? I believe the nightlords would perform just as well vs astartes, as any other legion would, in the sense that if the NL's vs other legions perform at 70% effeciency, then I also see all other legions as performing at 70% effeciency vs other legions...

An example of this would be the Thousand Son...versus non astartes they use their psyker powers with no resistance...however versus another astartes legion such as when they fought the spacewolves, their psyker powers were not as effective. This is not to say they do not function, and or destroy other astartes, but the point stands they are less effective versus other astarts, such as when Magnus unleashed his full psychic potential against Russ in combat, and it merely made Russ angrier. Or how a TT psyker could normally flay an opponent alive, but versus an astartes merely damages his power armor, and so forth...Do you see the picture I am trying to paint, and if so do you agree and on what points, and also which points do you disagree?

Secondly...the fight between Kurze and Dorn, some say Dorn is a "pussy" because of his less then stellar performance against Kurze. However I do not see this as a low point for Dorn, but a high point for Kurze, in that Kurze was able to with his bear hands beat a primarch to near death. No where in the fluff does it state Dorn was in the low tier for combat, or if it does please correct me....but as far as I know it does not. Also was not Kurze naked, as in having no armor, weapons, or clothing, when he beat Dorn to near death? Was dorn in power armor or equiped? If so it is even a higher point for Kuze in combat ability.

Also as you stated, the other primarchs always felt uneasy around Kurze, was this some sort of psychic field he had, to induce fear even in individuals of the level of primarchs? Thus in combat he could use this field of psychic fear to paralyze others, or disorient them? And secondly the psychic wave to destroy the light spheres, could he use this in other offensive manners? Also I've heard Kurze could wrap darkness around him, was this also a psychic power?


----------



## Warlock in Training

Lord of the Night said:


> 1. Night Lords. They are more versed in ship to ship combat then the Raven Guard, and hit and run are a lot harder to pull off in space so the Raven Guard would be at a disadvantage.
> 
> 2. Night Lords. The Raven Guard's hit and run tactics would not work well against the Night Lords aggressive terror tactics and both Legions are adept at stealth so it turns back to the original tactics. Both Legions did not make use of heavy armour so it would be a contest of Space Marines rather then tanks.
> 
> 3. It'd be about even. Night Lords are excellent at stealth but the end goal is to reveal themselves. Raven Guard are excellent at stealth as well but can overuse it. If anything i'd say Night Lords are at a bit of an advantage since they can utilize darkness better then the Raven Guard.
> 
> 4. Night Lords. Their doctrines are more martial then the Raven Guard who rely on fluidity of movement for their formations and stick to hit and run attacks. Night Lords can use aggressive assault and stealthy defence.
> 
> 5. The Night Lords would win a drag out war because their terror tactics would wear down the Raven Guard. That and stealth tactics don't really work against masters of stealth so the Raven Guard's primary tactics would be ineffective.
> 
> 6. Night Lords are more brutal then the Raven Guard so I doubt any would escape in a fight, sometimes it would come down to sheer power and luck but overall i'd say Night Lords would win.
> 
> 7. Hmm Corax could turn himself invisible but I wonder how a Primarch would respond to that. Maybe they would still be able to sense him, im not sure on that one. But if the assassination was discovered and it turned into a fight then Curze would win.
> 
> 8. Curze. No question. Konrad Curze beat Rogal Dorn half to death when he was dazed out, if he was focused then just imagine what he could do. Corax would be killed.
> 
> 9. Konrad Curze. In _Raven's Flight_ Corax undertakes missions without his generals even knowing, shows a lack of communication and communication is essential to good tactics. Curze seems to be a much better tactician judging from his battles.
> 
> 
> Not easy questions considering both the Night Lords and Raven Guard Legions used similar tactics. But since the Night Lords are a more aggressive Legion and did not rely on stealth as their primary tactic, and were capable of bringing a fearsome assault to bear rather then hit and run attacks I believe they are the superior Legion.



Hmmm... someone who seems to have a opponion on NLs winning. Is someone gonna claim he dont know what hes talking about?:laugh: Maybe he knows nothing of RG so shouldnt talk. 



Sir Whittaker said:


> It seems alot of people misunderstand the NL and RG approach to battle (especially NL). It’s not just the ‘good fast attack guys’ versus the ‘bad fast attack guys’. Though both the NL and RG both utilise highly mobile forces, the reason behind their use is very different.
> 
> I’m no expert on the RG, but from what I understand they’re the epitome of a hit and run force, partially because of their Primarch’s upbringing on Lycaeus and his guerrilla war against his Kiavahr overlords, and because of their limited numbers after the dropsite massacre at Istvaan V meant the RG couldn’t stand in large engagements so used sneak attacks to defeat much larger and formidable foes. They hit fast and hard against key points before they are ready for an attack, or attacked secondary targets to lessen resistance at more important ones, vanishing before the enemy can inflict major casualties or gather their senses.
> 
> I may not know a great deal about the RG, but I do know plenty about the NL. Almost all of their methods of war come from their Primarch and what he learned about the human race on Nostramo; humanity is not intrinsically good, and unless there are severe consequences will act inhumanely. The NL provided these consequences. They used fast and decisive strikes to sow discord and confusion when it suited, other times brute force was the NL modus operandi. Part of the reason the NL were so feared was because they often used far more force than a situation required.
> 
> Both forces used hit and run tactics to achieve their aims, the RG more so I believe, because it is how they practise war (not that they can’t stand in a pitched battle), the NL utilise stealth and quick strikes specifically to sow unease. When a predator stalks his prey it makes the kill quickly, only in the case of the NL, the prey know the predator is there, somewhere... The main difference between the NL and RG is the NL want you to know they are or were there, the RG don’t.
> 
> Both armies use psychological warfare, the RG use their guerrilla tactics to sap morale in prolonged engagements, but you’d find it hard to argue that the NL weren’t by far the superior fighting force amongst all eighteen Legions in this department.
> 
> Whilst on the subject on astartes and psychology, I will state now, in my opinion, they do feel and suffer detrimental effects of fear. Astartes do have emotions, and anything that feels any emotion can be afraid. The Primarchs feared a great many things, (the collapse of the Imperium, hostile warp entities, even Night Haunter himself) and regular astartes are less than they. It is not, however, the same kind of feeling a guardsman, for example, would feel. In ‘The Dark King’ Night Haunter refers to the fear astartes feel as ‘bottled lightning in the marrow’ or something similar. An astartes would never be rendered a weeping heap because he’s so terrified of the NL, terrified screams over his vox won’t bother him too much; he could be misdirected, confused, and made wary by them.
> 
> So, to actually answer the original post, in my opinion the RG are superior at guerrilla warfare, infiltration, small scale espionage, all that stuff (unless the majority of the fighting took place on a world/worlds that had prolonged nights) , the NL would be better at the large battles. Night Haunter would put a beat down on Corax in a fight, but is certainly not his better at assassination (if it came to that I’d imagine Night Haunter would allow himself to be killed, a fellow Primarch murdering him serves his point much better than a callidus assassin).
> 
> In the end, like every one of these ‘who would win’ scenarios, it ultimately comes down to circumstance. What I want to know is which Primarch could hold his breath the longest?



Nice thought out post.:victory:


----------



## gen.ahab

At lux, we don't have any instances where that kenetic power did anything more than damage lights do we? If so I suppose it could be used to push him off balance if he was fast enough to catch corax but I doubt it would do more than that. When they say wrap the shadows around him it could have just been a writting tech and may have meant nothing more than he was sneaky.


----------



## Lux

Yes, there is no evidence, not enough at least to substantially state what his psychic shockwave could or could not do so I won't push that point.

As for the shadows, I don't know, no one truly could except the writter, did it mean being stealthy, or more word for word that he could psychically wrap shadows around him. And it being kurze who has shown multiple psyker abilities and an afinity for darkness, I wouldn't be surprised if he could with psyker ability wrap shadows around him.


----------



## Sir Whittaker

Lux, at the end of the day the NL are still astartes, they have all the training and skill that all the other Legions had at the time, so perform no worse against a given enemy than any other Legion who did not specialize in a particular aspect of war. For example, if you needed to assault a fortress, you'd naturally choose either the IW or IF to do the job, but the NL could still take the fortress just as well as any other Legion (apart from the aforemention ones). Unless it was a particularly tough fortress, I don't think it'd really matter which colour genetically enhanced super humans blew chunks out of it.

The whole Dorn and Curze thing had too many unknowns to really ascertain the strength of either. We assume Curze is nasty and powerful combatant because he maimed a Primarch, but it is just an assumption. I imagine Curze just leapt on him and tore some holes in Dorn before Dorn could do much about it, after all he'd probably not be expecting an attack from his brother, even if their relationship was strained. In a fistfight we don't know who'd win, but I'm sticking with Curze anyway. Also,feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Primarch were in their civis when it hit the fan.


----------



## Lux

I suppose what was confusing me, was so many were claiming the nightlords were worse vs astartes than any other. But the way you put it makes sense, all legions were equally trained to do all jobs, the only differences were their specialities, but than again some are claiming the nightlords speciality is made moot and null because it is ineffective vs astartes which I do not believe.


----------



## gen.ahab

Not totally moot but less effective, it would just be down to rapid attacks for the most part, terror tactics would be far less effective.


----------



## Lux

I can agree the terror tactics would be less effective vs astartes than vs non astartes. But in the same ammount the ravenguards guerilla warfare, and stealth tactics would be equally less effective vs other astartes and especially the nightlords.


----------



## gen.ahab

Yes but the fluff would seem to suggest that the RG are better at it. So they would still have the upper hand in this fight.


----------



## Lux

In your opinion they have the upper hand, not acording to canon. In the fluff it does not state that the rg are the unrivaled masters of stealth, better then all other legions. Both the rg and nl are described as masters of stealth, lightening raids, and commando warfare. 

The speciality of the rg is neutralized by the fact that

A. They are fighting astartes which already reduces the effectiveness of their speciality.

B. They are fighting the nl's who are masters of stealth, arguably more so, as well as masters of lightening attacks, commando warfare, and so forth.

The rg have no edge, no more than the nl do.

The only diff bw these two are as whit already outlined, one has psychological warfare which is reduced vs astartes, and the other has guerilla tactics which is reduced vs astartes, and especially the nl's who also specialize in it, while the same can not be said of the rg in regards to psychological warfare.


----------



## gen.ahab

Why would guerilla warfare be less effective? Sure the mind fuck side of it would be but the hit and run would be effective. And fluff suggests their better at it. It says they are the masters of guerilla warfare, each legion had one aspect of warfare which they excelled at and outperformed the other legions at... For the RG that is hit and run stealth combat.


----------



## Baron Spikey

If the Raven Guard can sneak up on Ultramarine scouts, literally within arms reach, without being detected then that says alot about their stealth skills versus Astartes.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

Baron Spikey said:


> If the Raven Guard can sneak up on Ultramarine scouts, literally within arms reach, without being detected then that says alot about their stealth skills versus Astartes.


Not as much as you might think given that scouts are less than full astartes and dont have the sensor enhancing benefits given by full power armour.


----------



## gen.ahab

Yes really. Scouts are stealth specialists with optics and equipment specifically designed for infiltration. If you manage to sneak up on one of them to within an arms length you could certainly do it to a marine.


----------



## Baron Spikey

And Scout Sergeants are all Veteran Sergeants with decades of experience.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

gen.ahab said:


> Yes really. Scouts are stealth specialists with optics and equipment specifically designed for infiltration. If you manage to sneak up on one of them to within an arms length you could certainly do it to a marine.


Scouts are trainee marines, apart from special cases every marine has previously been a scout, so unless they forget their scout training or maybe go deaf from inadequate ear defenders in their armour, then scouts are if anything easier to sneak up on as they lack the years of experience.

Albeit the veteran sergeant should make it trickier...


----------



## Grins1878

Lux said:


> Fear isn't about scaring an individual, it is about manipulating them to do an action or to have a lack of action.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Disinformation it is, not fear, fear is an emotional response.
> 
> Making the enemy believe you are doing one thing and lulling them into a false sense of security, or lulling them into a trap, making them move their forces is just disinformation (or deception), like Operation Fortitude in WW2, the Allies built a shedload of inflatable tanks and buildings to make it look like there were two huge forces going to attack.
> 
> The same with the second gulf war, false radio traffic was used to make the Opfors think the attack was coming from one place, only for it to occur in another. Sun Tzu summed it up with 'A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear incompetent. Though effective, appear ineffective.'. It's all about making the enemy think one thing is true when it isn't.
> 
> Can be effective when used correctly. From the little I've read about the RG though I'd reckon they would get the eventual victory, they seem to know guerilla warfare like the back of their hand and would know how to play the enemy.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

I would be interested in how people would see the fighting develop. Presumably both legions turn up in the same system at more or less the same time and then what?

Wouldnt it be likely that the majority of the campaign would be settled in large space battle? How would either legions special traits come into play in that case? 

Or how else would you see the fighting develop?


----------



## Lux

Fear and the other 6 primary emotions, are both antecedents, and behavioral consequences, depending upon the view point of the subject or the recorder.

Before you go and state some thing is definitively wrong, pause for a moment and ponder...to say some thing is objectively not some thing else is to say you can in all statiscal liklihood demonstrate to a council of peers with consistency it is and or is not, if you are unable to do these things then it is unquantifiable. 

As for "misinformation", manipulation of antecedents is often used for emotional behavioral consequences. It is the practice of ABC, in this case the nightlords who are masters of psychological warfare, would be masters of which antecedents which cause which behaviors of specific trait orientated individuals both singular and in larger power numbers such as a large scale N which in this case would be the RG legion.

Love, joy, surprise, anger, sadness, fear, the primary emotions depending which psychological paradigm you follow. Coupled with secondary emotions such as pride, jealousy, shame, contempt.

Are you telling me space marines, in particular the ravenguard are immune, or so highly resilliant to antecedents on both an emotional level and material level, that antecedental manipulation would be ineffective? Show me the evidence which supports your theory, because horus did a splendid job at doing so, down to near every primarch and marines of every legion.

Kurze, and the nightlords who unlike horus, specialize in this to an extreme in offense, would in all likilihood be effective versus the ravenguard, guerilla warfare or not, conventional army warfare or not, insurgentcy warfare or not, and so on.

Space marines, primarchs, the emperor, were all deeply effected by both primary and secondary emotions, and if you want to be technical tertiary emotions, such as feelings of abandonment.

The nightlords who by fluff are masters of psychological warfare, of which fear is but a grain of sand in your their repertoire of skills and practices, would be arguably the most effective anti astartes legion of them all.

For the one thing the primarchs and marines, as well as the emperor all showed vulnerability to despite their demi godhood, genetic augmentation and psycholgical conditioning, was psychological maladaptions such as behavioral manipulation, also known as antecedental control.


----------



## gen.ahab

Yllib Enaz said:


> Scouts are trainee marines, apart from special cases every marine has previously been a scout, so unless they forget their scout training or maybe go deaf from inadequate ear defenders in their armour, then scouts are if anything easier to sneak up on as they lack the years of experience.
> 
> Albeit the veteran sergeant should make it trickier...


the difference is the equipment in play. Scouts are outfited with all manner of equipment designed for stealth. They should be able to spot something before a marine simply because they have the right gear... And yeah a vet sarg would spot them way before his men. And not all scouts are green.


----------



## Grins1878

What I meant was in reference to the larger portion of the post I quoted

"*false sense of victory, inaccurate numbers, battle reports tweaked,*" these couldn't be given to someone through fear, it would have to be misinformation/deception/disinformation.

You can't scare someone into thinking they've won, thinking they've got superior numbers, it's all to do with the above as opposed to fear. The two examples I gave are prime examples (numbers - operation fortitude, making people do something by misinformation - the start of gulf war 2) of them. 

Psychological warfare is more along the lines of winning the hearts and minds of people to gain their backing or propaganda. You could obviously use it to negative effect (Like in Stalingrad with both sides dropping leaflets to try and sway opfors into surrendering/not fighting or switching sides), and I guess it would work in 40K too, using chaos to corrupt populations and whatnot.

I'd still back the Raven Guard though :wink:


----------



## gen.ahab

@ lux, primarchs are totaly different psycologically then a marine. A marine is a complete person where as a primarch could be seen as only one aspect of a complete being, the emperor. Marines are trained from childhood in the art of warfare and undergo extreme mental conditioning. Fear would be ineffective. Yes, they could feel it but it wouldn't effect their combat effectiveness. Remember the lightning in the bones thing. Disinformation could work, probably just as effective againt any other army.


----------



## Lux

Once again gen ahab, psychological warfare has shown by fluff to be the most effective anti astartes weapon there is. Aside from the primarchs being extremely vulnerable to antecedent shaping, the marines are in no way immune or have ever shown resistance to it of what you speak of.

The marines of the deathguard showed exreme depths of emotion drawn from the teritary emotions of abandonment, jealousy, pride, contempt, and it is these same emotions which greatly altered their perception of reality, course of action and rational, which eventually led to their downfal and strategic loss. By causing the legion to rip itself apart from the inside outward, astropath murder anyone? Geller field sabotage? Rebellions? Etc.


----------



## gen.ahab

Their fall was the result of nurgle. If they hadn't turned they would all die. And in one of the ultramarines novels they fought night lords and terror tactics were used on them, night lords weren't very sneaky btw, and it didn't effect their combat potential. Fear is something they are trained to ignore, that emotion out of all others thy are trained to block. Give me an example of terror tactics being used and working against marines.


----------



## Grins1878

Can you clarify what you mean by antecendent shaping? To me it seems to mean their previous shaping, which I don't understand.

Do you mean their previous training?


----------



## Lux

Grins1878 said:


> What I meant was in reference to the larger portion of the post I quoted
> 
> "*false sense of victory, inaccurate numbers, battle reports tweaked,*" these couldn't be given to someone through fear, it would have to be misinformation/deception/disinformation.
> 
> You can't scare someone into thinking they've won, thinking they've got superior numbers, it's all to do with the above as opposed to fear. The two examples I gave are prime examples (numbers - operation fortitude, making people do something by misinformation - the start of gulf war 2) of them.
> 
> Psychological warfare is more along the lines of winning the hearts and minds of people to gain their backing or propaganda. You could obviously use it to negative effect (Like in Stalingrad with both sides dropping leaflets to try and sway opfors into surrendering/not fighting or switching sides), and I guess it would work in 40K too, using chaos to corrupt populations and whatnot.
> 
> I'd still back the Raven Guard though :wink:



As I explained in my prior post, fear is but a grain of sand in the repertoire of psychological warfare, and could be completely dismissed if needed if the opponent is more effected by another antecedent.

Psychological warfare does not = fear. Psychological warfare = antecedent control.

As I prior explained in depth, antecedents are what are used to manipulate your opponent, from allowing an opposing certain squad to repeatedly win while focusing your forces to repeatedly crush other opposing squads to throw off the ebb and flow of their advacement.

From altering your vox messages, or inherently exposing them to aural/occipital messages that reinforce their maladaptive behaviors, such as highjacking their vox frequencies and relaying speeches or messages done by corax their primarch, simply using the same frequencies as corax voice to replicate his voice to trigger neural synapses to fire off would alter their combat effectivenes, and its the stacking of all these cards that breaks the camels back.

Is this all the nightlords can do? No. The possibilities are near endless, psychological warfare is both behavioral, neurological, and sociological, as well as a myriad of other disciplinary paradigm interwoven with one another.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> Their fall was the result of nurgle. If they hadn't turned they would all die. And in one of the ultramarines novels they fought night lords and terror tactics were used on them, night lords weren't very sneaky btw, and it didn't effect their combat potential. Fear is something they are trained to ignore, that emotion out of all others thy are trained to block. Give me an example of terror tactics being used and working against marines.


Gen ahab, are you even reading my posts? At all? I have posted several times now regarding the argument of fear being less effective versus trained and conditioned individuals is some what null in thus arguments context.

They don't need to use terror tactics, they don't need to use fear, kurze's speciality wasn't fear, it was psychological understanding and the manipulation of it for his own ends.

I say this clearly once again, fear is but one crayon in kurze's 1000 crayola crayons box.

As for your question grin, antecedents are scientifically defined as variables which produce a behavior, thus the paradigm of ABC, also known as behavioral analysis. 

Antecedent -> Behavior -> Consequence

What is a antecedent to one is not definitively an antecedent to another, to one it could be anantecedent to another it is a behevaior and to another but a consequence.

Antecedents will always do one of two things, either increase a behavior, or decrease a behavior, but always producing a consequence.

Psychological warfare is based on these principles, not on fear, fear is but just one of many antecedents used in antecedent shaping.


----------



## gen.ahab

But they don't specialize in all types of psychological warfare, they specialize in one aspect of it, terror. They use fear. They don't use audio warfare, playing loud music to basically bug the shit out of your enemies, they don't use and haven’t been known to use anything but terror tactics.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> But they don't specialize in all types of psychological warfare, they specialize in one aspect of it, terror. They use fear. They don't use audio warfare, playing loud music to basically bug the shit out of your enemies, they don't use and haven’t been known to use anything but terror tactics.


This is untrue...kurze was never stated to be a master of terror tactics, he was described as being a master of manipulation, using what he had to, to cause those around him to fall into order. Fear in particular was used for his home planet due to it being most effective in that sociological setting, one of primarily murderers with no consequences for their actions. When consequence was added, it wasn't fear that ruled, it was the psychological paradigm shift that occured, now people before they acted questioned if even momentarily in their head "if I do this, will it cause me to die". It was that pause that influenced the popular not the source of fear itself.

When the rg advance on the nl they will question at every advance, every tactical decision " are they expecting this?" "Iwill this get us killed and cost us the tactical advantage for the war?" Etc.

Its the consistent pauses in the ebb and flow of an opponents perception that disrupts effeciency, not "oh I'm too scared to much". Armies even of todays era and the past relied upon the former I described not the latter which you seem to think is what psychological warfare and terror tactics are.


----------



## Grins1878

Lux said:


> From altering your vox messages, or inherently exposing them to aural/occipital messages that reinforce their maladaptive behaviors, such as highjacking their vox frequencies and relaying speeches or messages done by corax their primarch, simply using the same frequencies as corax voice to replicate his voice to trigger neural synapses to fire off would alter their combat effectivenes, and its the stacking of all these cards that breaks the camels back.


This is disinformation. Camoflage is disinformation. You're talking military, it's called disinformation.

Disinformation is making the enemy believe something when it isn't true, it's not psychology.

You're talking with psychology about antecendents (stimuli in terms of psychology I believe - something I don't profess to be incredibly knowledgable in) but not looking at it right.

Psychology looks at everything with stimulus, behaviour and consequence, military and warfare wise is different though.

Similar, but in warfare its wrong. Psychological warfare is hearts and minds, propaganda, winning over the people. Terror tactics are threats of violence, destruction against places or people and disinformation is making people believe that something is true when it isn't.


----------



## gen.ahab

His legions speciality is noted as Stealth, and terror raids. He used fear, he kept Nostramo in check with fear. His main tactic was fear.


----------



## Lux

Grins1878 said:


> This is disinformation. Camoflage is disinformation. You're talking military, it's called disinformation.
> 
> Disinformation is making the enemy believe something when it isn't true, it's not psychology.
> 
> You're talking with psychology about antecendents (stimuli in terms of psychology I believe - something I don't profess to be incredibly knowledgable in) but not looking at it right.
> 
> Psychology looks at everything with stimulus, behaviour and consequence, military and warfare wise is different though.
> 
> Similar, but in warfare its wrong. Psychological warfare is hearts and minds, propaganda, winning over the people. Terror tactics are threats of violence, destruction against places or people and disinformation is making people believe that something is true when it isn't.


You do know the military's foundation and drawing of psychological warfare is from psychology and done bys psychological experimentation and funded peer review yes?

Truth is subjective, it is what ever you believe it is...the bases of stallins psychological warfare was to shape truth, to create a paradigm shift. If enough people believe some thing is true, for all neurological and sociological effects it is "true".

Misinformation not antecedent shaping? It uses the very basis of it....what credentials are you using to state this...or were are you drawing your conclusions from?

Every "lie", propaganda, paradigm shift, parade, vox message, word of mouth, every action is an antecedent.

Antecedent = anything which produces a behavior.

Is it a desired or undesired beavhior? Well that depends on your objective, from there you reinforce or punish, extinguish it.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> His legions speciality is noted as Stealth, and terror raids. He used fear, he kept Nostramo in check with fear. His main tactic was fear.


His legions speciality was psychological warfare...

Stealth? They were stealthy when they wanted to be, they often wanted the opponent to know they were there, so they would question and consistently tactically plan and analyze every scenario of engagement...how, when, where, why, that's the point of letting your opponent know your present, but not precisely when, where, how, or why...you leave them questions so they can focus on answering them, which the grand point is the answer doesn't benefit them only leads them to more questions.

Thus the whole point to the stratgey...

Am I saying they aren't stealthy..no, they were masters of it but was it their speciality? No.

Psychological warfare is, of which fear tactics is but an aspect of it.

Its like saying the raven guard masters of guerilla warfare, were only masters of hit and run, nothing else.


----------



## gen.ahab

In military terms it isn't called psychological warfare any more than an assault is.... which would be psychological warfare by your definition.


----------



## Grins1878

I'm drawing my conclusions from being a serving soldier who is taught misinformation/disinformation in my chosen career path and being an avid reader on military history and tactics, and someone who studied psychology about 11 years ago (as I said, I'm not too knowledgeable).

There's several different styles of warfare, as I described are but a few.

I've no doubt the nightlords could paste some armies, but in the case of the RG, I think they'd be hard pushed to cause fear and panic in an army as resolute as Space Marines.

When it comes to guerilla tactics, you can't beat a force of equal size and strength when they can outplay you with guerilla tactics.


----------



## gen.ahab

Lux said:


> His legions speciality was psychological warfare...
> 
> Stealth? They were stealthy when they wanted to be, they often wanted the opponent to know they were there, so they would question and consistently tactically plan and analyze every scenario of engagement...how, when, where, why, that's the point of letting your opponent know your present, but not precisely when, where, how, or why...you leave them questions so they can focus on answering them, which the grand point is the answer doesn't benefit them only leads them to more questions.
> 
> Thus the whole point to the stratgey...
> 
> Am I saying they aren't stealthy..no, they were masters of it but was it their speciality? No.
> 
> Psychological warfare is, of which fear tactics is but an aspect of it.
> 
> Its like saying the raven guard masters of guerilla warfare, were only masters of hit and run, nothing else.


They didn't use all aspect of psychological warfare. Their main tactic was terror, simple as that. It was the linchpin in their strategy. If they have ever used any other form of psycho warfare I have never seen it.


----------



## Lux

gen.ahab said:


> In military terms it isn't called psychological warfare any more than an assault is.... which would be psychological warfare by your definition.


I isn't "my" definition, you may thank the APA in regards to its current definition.

Military and psychology..is there a conceptual and base difference between the behavioral analysis used by psychologist and tacticians employed by the military, and those employed by a private firm or clinic?

No. It is the same principles and concepts applied.

Psychologist are hired, to advise and demonstrate the combat effectiveness of different psychological techniques, which then used in war is commonly known as "psychologica warfare". Does "psychological warfare" actually exist as its own discipline for a doctorate or masters degree? No it doesn't.

Psychological warfare = psychological concepts applied for such reasons.


----------



## gen.ahab

Whatever the case, fear is ineffective against them, which is what my point was. Either way its a RG victory.


----------



## Grins1878

Here's a good explanation for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_warfare

It's wiki, it's not gospel but it'll give you the idea we're pushing here. The difference is you could bring everything down to psychology if you go down that road.

Antecedent - I need the toilet
Behavior - I know if I don't go, I'll need to change my clothes, if I do go, I'll feel better.
Consequence - Soiled trousers/flushing toilet.

If you go down the psychological route, you'll start analysing eating your cereal-

Antecedent - I want that cold milk and spoon of frosties in my mouth
Behavior - I know I've mastered the art of the spoon
Consequence - I eat the frosties and enjoy them.

You can apply it to literally everything, even an engine running;

Antecedent - key is turned 
Behaviour - ignition sparks
Consequence - car starts.

which is why I think it's mainly b*llocks. And you're applying it to heavy handed to the fluff of a great game  

Anyhow, I'm off the pub to get blammed!

Have a top night everyone :-D


----------



## Lux

> It's wiki, it's not gospel but it'll give you the idea we're pushing here. The difference is you could bring everything down to psychology if you go down that road.


This is not true, at all....antecedent analysis is one paradigm, you could look at any reality with any number of focal lenses, each would produce a different interpretation. Also you either did not realize wiki was lacking...or your interpretation or understanding of antecedents is....inaccurate.



> Antecedent - I need the toilet
> Behavior - I know if I don't go, I'll need to change my clothes, if I do go, I'll feel better.
> Consequence - Soiled trousers/flushing toilet.


We'll this is not accurate...firstly this is not an antecedent, that is a motivator.

A more accurate model would be this

Antecedent: person A waves to person B
Behavior: person B waves back
Consequence: was desired behavior produced in subject, if so reinforce, if not penalize. The consequence in and of itself is different to both the experimenter and subject.

However the key is the experimenter is the one feeding the antecedents and the subject is producing behavioral responses.

What you demonstrated was firstly
1. Internal and thought, in antecedent analysis it is external.
2. You had a desire, antecedents aren't desires or motivators, they are external triggers of behaviors.

You being hungry wasn't the antecedent it was the bacon you saw, or the food you smelled, or the pain in your stomach you felt that you associated with hunger and not another context such as sickness or stress.

If


> you go down the psychological route, you'll start analysing eating your cereal-


I suppose if you're new to psychology...



> Antecedent - I want that cold milk and spoon of frosties in my mouth
> Behavior - I know I've mastered the art of the spoon
> Consequence - I eat the frosties and enjoy them.


Antecedent: some one mentions frosties to you/you see a frosties commercial
Behavior:depends on the persons association of frosties, they could buy some, eat some, remember how horrid they are. But for arguments sake...

Person leaves house to go buy frosties. Leaving the house was the behavior.

Say they already have some - person gets up and goes to kitchen where frosties reside.

That's the behavior, not eating them.





> You can apply it to literally everything, even an engine running;


You could apply any paradigm to any reality, does it mean it is effecient to do so?



> which is why I think it's mainly b*llocks. And you're applying it to heavy handed to the fluff of a great game


That's delightful, does it make it bullocks? I suppose in your self conceived reality it does. 



> Anyhow, I'm off the pub to get blammed!
> 
> Have a top night everyone :-D


Have fun!


----------



## ckcrawford

I believe that the measure of the Night Lords Gorilla Warfare maybe a little underestimated. Though, like many of the other legions they have not had as much light yet put on them. Looking back at the Night Lords in Night Haunter, the a couple of them were able to take down a whole titan is amazing. Not to mention the other achievements they had done.


----------



## gen.ahab

Eh. Primarchs have brought down war machines of that size before. Hell, there is probably less known about the RG than the NL.


----------



## Lux

A primarch can also take down an avatar, besides comparing a primarch to marines is inaccurate as you said gen ahab.

And I also agree the nightlords guerilla warfare would be second only to maybe only to the ravenguard. But its so close in skill that the rg's guerilla tactics would be rendered very ineffective vs the nl's.

All in all the rg put up a good fight but the NL's take the war.


----------



## gen.ahab

What advantage would they have though?


----------



## ckcrawford

oh shoot. Sorry guys i meant... in the book Soul Hunter those three night lords took down a whole titan. From what I've seen about the two styles in gorilla warfare is that Raven Guard tend to get more and personal by using their speed in close quarters and the night lords use any tool in their hands. Very rarely will you hear a raven guard pop out and shoot a rocket launcher. Instead they tend to stealth their way to the enemy and butcher them in close quarters. While the Night Lords seem to be more of an army that will be firing from you in different directions. In that one scene in Soul Hunter for example they had many different weapons and the squad was basically all over the place. One guy shooting a rocket launcher, another under its feet with a plasma mine.


----------



## gen.ahab

No you made it fairly clear..... don't really know how I missed that. And if its a small titan like a warhound it isn't outside of the realm of possibility.


----------



## Baron Spikey

The way you present it ckcrawford is as if the Night Lords took it down themselves, instead it was really a Thunderhawk unleashing a load of missiles pretty much right in the Titan's face to strip away it's Void Shields and then a Land Raider punishing it with as much firepower as possible before it could retaliate.


----------



## Grins1878

Regardless of my flaws in a subject I've never professed to being a demon in (rocks on the other hand, I can bore for England about rocks), I still think RG would be the victors in a long and bloody conflict, mainly because guerilla tactics would work against all foes where as the NL skills would be better against less zealous and conditioned troops, more like the IG, eldar, etc.

I reckon anyhow 

Cheers for the debate anyhow, I'm going to trawl some other boards!

x


----------



## MontytheMighty

a bit of threadomancy here but I couldn't resist throwing in my opinion



Lux said:


> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship to ship?
> *not enough information, so 50/50*
> 
> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
> *perhaps Night Lords, they might have the close combat edge...*
> 
> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
> *Raven Guard, I'd say the RG are the loyalist counterpart of the Alpha Legion
> NL might also be good in this area but not as good as RG*
> 
> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
> *both would be on the offensive *
> 
> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
> *50/50*
> 
> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?
> *Night Lords might have the close combat edge, but I think the RG are stealthier
> depends on the situation 50/50*
> 
> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
> *Corax, I just think he's even better at Curze at being sneaky*
> 
> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
> *this I really don't know
> 
> a lot of people point to Curze beating Dorn, but it's heavily implied (at least to me) that Curze freaked out during a heated verbal confrontation and "sucker punched" a surprised Dorn...I think Dorn is one of the last primarchs to start a physical fight with another primarch
> I don't see anyone using the Lion's sucker-punch of Russ to argue how great the Lion was
> 
> Corax did avoid fighting Curze after fighting Lorgar but I don't think it was because Corax thought "OMG I'm gonna lose", it seemed more of a tactical withdrawal
> 
> that said, maybe I'd give a slight edge to Curze
> *
> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).
> *Corax *
> 
> *I'm not sure I'd categorize the Night Lords as a stealth-based legion, stealth is certainly one of the tools they've been known to use, but brutality and terror seem to be their primary modus operandi
> 
> Space Marines do feel fear but I think the amount they feel is minuscule compared to what a Guardsman would feel, or alternatively, SM feel fear in a "different way"
> my point is I don't think fear would reduce a Space Marine's combat effectiveness, or any reduction would be insignificant
> terror tactics simply wouldn't be cost-effective against Space Marines*


----------



## Weapon

Baron Spikey said:


> The way you present it ckcrawford is as if the Night Lords took it down themselves, instead it was really a Thunderhawk unleashing a load of missiles pretty much right in the Titan's face to strip away it's Void Shields and then a Land Raider punishing it with as much firepower as possible before it could retaliate.


_
Corax never killed anything, his weapons did_

Last time I checked that was a NIGHT LORDS Thunderhawk.

That means that THE NIGHT LORDS with THE NIGHT LORDS SLAVE took down A TITAN with THE NIGHT LORDS THUNDERHAWK and THE NIGHT LORDS LAND RAIDER.

Your argument is foolish.
The fact that they used machines means nothing.

And anyway, how else are, what, six or so men supposed to take down a gigantic death machine?

Chainswords?

Regardless of how they did it, the fact still remains that less than ten individuals from the Night Lords legion took down a god damn Titan.

I'm not arguing that they're better than the Raven Guard with this post, just pointing out how stupid the quoted post is.

For shame Baron.


----------



## MEQinc

Lux said:


> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?


My moneys on the Night Lords but not by much. Ship-to-ship fighting offers little opportunity for stealth or hit-and-run but often includes brutal assaults which favours the Night Lords slightly.



> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?


Night Lords. The Raven Guard almost never engage in this type of combat by choice whereas the Night Lords do.



> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.


The Raven Guard will have the advantage here and this is likely to be the bulk of any engagement between the two.



> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?


While not necessarily 'defensive' the Raven Guards tactics will often see them melting away from Night Lord attacks forcing them to give up ground. This isn't necessarily a good thing for the Night Lords though if they over extend themselves.



> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?


Basically I see it going in one of two ways. Either the Night Lords can bring the Raven Guard to open (or at least somewhat open) combat through manipulation, in which case a Night Lord victory is most likely. Or else the Night Lords and Raven Guard slowly pick each other to peices with the Raven Guard eventually emerging victorious though highly battered.



> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?


Depends way to massively on the individuals involved and the scenario under which their fight occurs. 



> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?


I suppose I'd give this to Night Haunter given that his past at least contains occasions of this (I've never seen anything to suggest that Corax hunted people). However the likeliness of this scenario occuring is just ludicrously small as it is far to risky for the offending primarch.



> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?


I'd say Night Haunter and I'll explain why below.



> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


Almost certainly Corax. Corax was raised to be the leader of a planet-wide revolt. This takes great tactical knowledge. On the other hand Curze was a savage before being taken in by the Emperor and what he knows of tactics (as in actual military tactics, not human psychology or the hunt) would have been learned fairly recently.



> a lot of people point to Curze beating Dorn, but it's heavily implied (at least to me) that Curze freaked out during a heated verbal confrontation and "sucker punched" a surprised Dorn...I think Dorn is one of the last primarchs to start a physical fight with another primarch


Every time this gets brought up I say the same thing but here goes again, summarized.
A) Dorn should have been expecting it. You don't confront a deranged butcher in the middle of a fever-dream without at least somewhat anticpating violence.
B) Dorn is caught completely cold. Regardless of how aware he was of the danger of the situation he walked into he is still a primarch and his reaction speed would represent that. Yet even still Night Haunter can floor him before he's even aware of the blow coming, that shows serious speed.
C) Night Haunter one shots a Primarch. As in, with one blow he is capable of incapacitating one of the most resilient beings ever. That shows serious hitting power. 

So the Night Haunter is pretty dangerous in a fight. How exactly he stacks up in the pantheon of his brothers is unknown and likely unknowable but I'd still give him pretty good odds against any of them.



> Corax did avoid fighting Curze after fighting Lorgar but I don't think it was because Corax thought "OMG I'm gonna lose", it seemed more of a tactical withdrawal


Well it was an 'OMG I'm gonna lose' moment it just wasn't an 'OMG I'm gonna lose because Curze is the most badass man alive' so much as an 'OMG I'm gonna lose cause one of my arms isn't working and there's two of them now'. 



> I'm not sure I'd categorize the Night Lords as a stealth-based legion, stealth is certainly one of the tools they've been known to use, but brutality and terror seem to be their primary modus operandi


The Night Lords don't really have afixed mo. They operate in whatever ways they deem best suited to disorienting, distracting and ultimately defeating the foe. This includes stealth: hit and run raids, infiltration, assassination, etc. But it also includes far more aggressive tactics: brutal assaults, aggressive patrols, hacked communications. Any and all means necessary. 



> Space Marines do feel fear but I think the amount they feel is minuscule compared to what a Guardsman would feel, or alternatively, SM feel fear in a "different way"
> my point is I don't think fear would reduce a Space Marine's combat effectiveness, or any reduction would be insignificant


Fear could certainly be used to reduce a marines combat effectiveness. Probably not in the conventional sense of 'make them crap themselves and be unwilling to fight us' but in other respects. I think the 'lightning in the marrows' idea that Curze is getting at is that marines respond to fear with action and aggression. In other words the marine suppresses his fear (drives it down into his marrow) and uses it to spur action (lightning). While this might sound counter-productive for the Night Lords it is certainly not so. In small doses this reaction will make the marine more dangerous, however in large doses (such as in the overwhelming terror campaigns the Night Lords are famous for) it will spur them to poorly thought-out action. Causing your foe to lose his head is the prime goal of any Night Lord attack and whether this is through blind panic or unheeding aggression matters little in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Weapon said:


> _Corax never killed anything, his weapons did_
> 
> Last time I checked that was a NIGHT LORDS Thunderhawk.
> 
> That means that THE NIGHT LORDS with THE NIGHT LORDS SLAVE took down A TITAN with THE NIGHT LORDS THUNDERHAWK and THE NIGHT LORDS LAND RAIDER.
> 
> Your argument is foolish.
> The fact that they used machines means nothing.
> 
> And anyway, how else are, what, six or so men supposed to take down a gigantic death machine?
> 
> Chainswords?
> 
> Regardless of how they did it, the fact still remains that less than ten individuals from the Night Lords legion took down a god damn Titan.
> 
> I'm not arguing that they're better than the Raven Guard with this post, just pointing out how stupid the quoted post is.
> 
> For shame Baron.


Right, cause that was a well constructed arguement, you don't seem like a raving Night Lords fanboy at all. I especially liked the part where you felt it nesccasary to capitalise NIGHT LORDS, and repeat it again and again, how intellectually stimulating that must have been to type out. Calling the Baron foolish? Shit i think i should just sit back and let him defend his own very sizeable corner.



MEQinc said:


> C) Night Haunter one shots a Primarch. As in, with one blow he is capable of incapacitating one of the most resilient beings ever. That shows serious hitting power.


Where does it ever say he took Dorn out with one blow? We have no idea if Dorn even fought back or not. There just simply aren't enough details of the fight to say for sure how it went down.



I don't see how people figure the Night Lords would have any edge in an open large scale battle, there has been no indication at all that they are better at that sort of fight, or that the Raven Guard aren't good at it. The Night Lords specialised in terror tactics and using fear as a weapon, not large battles. And why would they have the edge in close combat? The Raven Guard are very good close combat specialists, favouring a heavy use of assault units, lightning claws and the like, if anything i would say the RG have the slight advantage close up.


----------



## Weapon

Angel of Blood said:


> Right, cause that was a well constructed arguement, you don't seem like a raving Night Lords fanboy at all. I especially liked the part where you felt it nesccasary to capitalise NIGHT LORDS, and repeat it again and again, how intellectually stimulating that must have been to type out. Calling the Baron foolish? Shit i think i should just sit back and let him defend his own very sizeable corner.



That was supposed to stress the point that THE NIGHT LORDS took down the Titan and that it wasn't simply a case of "Let's make the Thunderhawk and Land Raider take care of this one".

For someone so quick to judge, I'm surprised you didn't pick that one up.

So yeah, feel free to sit down and stop 'debating' whenever you want to.

Obviously your level of intellect is far above this kind of discussion and you should go spend your time solving world hunger, finding Madeleine Mccann, or perhaps fixing the situation in Japan.

I'm absolutely certain that any of these worthwhile efforts are a far better use of your amazing intelligence.

Godspeed Angel of Blood.

Godspeed.


----------



## Scholtae

Corax deafeted Lorgar in a stand up brawl and Lorgar although the worst combatant of all the primarchs managed to destroy one of corax's lightning claws and damage his face. Then Curze turns up, so as is logical Corax withdraws for there are two of his brothers facing him and he himself is injured. This is not a guage of the fighting skills of Curze, but Corax is described by another primarch (yes the least effective at dueling but nevertheless a primarch) as bieng an incredible close combatant. The only instance we have of guaging the night haunters combat skills is when he fought dorn. Now the point has been raised that Dorn should have been expecting Curze to attack him, this is true but I dought he expected to come at him with such fury. As for their legions, I think that the Raven guard are the supeior stealth tacticians because this is their sole chosen method of war. The night lords specialize in emotional manipulation and psychological warfare these tactics are effective against marines perhaps the terror inspiring sides is less effective against astartes due to the psychological conditioning all astartes undergo. The night lords favoured tactics would in my opinion be less effective against the raven guard with only the alpha legion bieng more resiliant pureley because the raven guard favour stealth and it is very difficult to misdirect somone who simply isn't there besides I believe corax to be the superior tatician of the two because of the fact that he led a moonwide rebelion on deliverance something that must have taken incredible tactical acumen. Curze on the other hand pacified his homeworld himself through his astute manipulation of the planets psychology but in his absence his world soon fell back to it's old barbarism, this does not make his achievement any less it simply proves that the force of his personality was neccesary to control his planet. One othe problem for the night lords on the stealth side is their armor, lightning bolts are not helpful camoflage where as matt black is.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Weapon said:


> _
> Corax never killed anything, his weapons did_
> 
> Last time I checked that was a NIGHT LORDS Thunderhawk.
> 
> That means that THE NIGHT LORDS with THE NIGHT LORDS SLAVE took down A TITAN with THE NIGHT LORDS THUNDERHAWK and THE NIGHT LORDS LAND RAIDER.
> 
> Your argument is foolish.
> The fact that they used machines means nothing.
> 
> And anyway, how else are, what, six or so men supposed to take down a gigantic death machine?
> 
> Chainswords?
> 
> Regardless of how they did it, the fact still remains that less than ten individuals from the Night Lords legion took down a god damn Titan.
> 
> I'm not arguing that they're better than the Raven Guard with this post, just pointing out how stupid the quoted post is.
> 
> For shame Baron.


Did I say anything about the Night Lords not using heavy equipment? No.
(In fact I'm fairly sure I specifically pointed out that they did)

Did I object to the way a post was worded that seemed to suggest 3 Night Lord Chaos Space Marines took down a Titan? Yes.

So the way I see it your argument is redundant, using the same equipment and tactics ANY Legion could have performed a similar feat- the fact that it was Night Lords utilising a Thunderhawk-Land Raider combo makes it neither more or less awesome.

So it would have been the same result if it had been a RAVEN GUARD Thunderhawk, and a RAVEN GUARD Land Raider- or, fuck it, a CARE BEARS Thunderhawk, and a CARE BEARS Land Raider.


----------



## MEQinc

Angel of Blood said:


> Where does it ever say he took Dorn out with one blow? We have no idea if Dorn even fought back or not. There just simply aren't enough details of the fight to say for sure how it went down.


I suppose it never does say that he was dropped with one blow. However it is fairly clear that Night Haunter was able to cause at least noticable injury in a relatively short period of time. It is unreasonable to assume that Dorn did not at least act in self-defense during the period where he was under attack. Therefore Night Haunter must have either made him unable to defend himself (a knock-out/disorienting blow) or rendered his defenses useless (through speed, savegery or something else).



> I don't see how people figure the Night Lords would have any edge in an open large scale battle, there has been no indication at all that they are better at that sort of fight, or that the Raven Guard aren't good at it. The Night Lords specialised in terror tactics and using fear as a weapon, not large battles.


Given that the Raven Guard m.o. aims intentionally to avoid open, large scale battles I think it is fair to say that they would be unpractised in them. The Night Lords do not aim to avoid these types of battles and so would have more experience at them then a legion like the Raven Guard. I'm not saying that they specialized in these types of battles or even that they prefered them simply that they did not aim to avoid them. 



> And why would they have the edge in close combat? The Raven Guard are very good close combat specialists, favouring a heavy use of assault units, lightning claws and the like, if anything i would say the RG have the slight advantage close up.


Both legions would be very good in close combat and I imagine they would fight very similarily (both seem to favour lightning claws for example). I think many people get caught up in the savegery the Night Lords project and forget that in battle cold efficiency is often preferable. However there is nothing to suggest either legion is better than the other at this type of combat.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX

What has happened to thine topic? Is it for naught that we argue over trivial matters then the pressing objective at hand? Will thou not present any credible information linked to a factual and canon source on which we can agree on? Will subjective material have more importance over objectivity? Will thee thread forever be put in limbo forever doomed to its unanswered purpose?


----------



## Scholtae

XxDreMisterxX said:


> What has happened to thine topic? Is it for naught that we argue over trivial matters then the pressing objective at hand? Will thou not present any credible information linked to a factual and canon source on which we can agree on? Will subjective material have more importance over objectivity? Will thee thread forever be put in limbo forever doomed to its unanswered purpose?



Sadly friend this always happens when fans of two distinct pieces of fluff go head to head as each individual has already made up his or her mind before posting leaving the battle lines drawn. It doesn't help that the particular circumstances of this fight aren't specefied to either of the legions and these two legions are similar anyway.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Weapon said:


> That was supposed to stress the point that THE NIGHT LORDS took down the Titan and that it wasn't simply a case of "Let's make the Thunderhawk and Land Raider take care of this one".
> 
> For someone so quick to judge, I'm surprised you didn't pick that one up.


No shit Sherlock, point made is the last time i felt the need to unleash the caplocks buton in a debate, i was probably about 12. I think it was pretty clear what you were trying to say without the caps, all they did was made your post look like it was made by a two year old. You didn't even begin to help yourself by posting seemingly immature shit like calling Baron foolish and openly deriding him, if you intended it to come off as humour, it failed.



Weapon said:


> Obviously your level of intellect is far above this kind of discussion and you should go spend your time solving world hunger, finding Madeleine Mccann, or perhaps fixing the situation in Japan.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain that any of these worthwhile efforts are a far better use of your amazing intelligence.
> 
> Godspeed Angel of Blood.
> 
> Godspeed.


Thanks for the kind words. I will try and look into these things after my current task of finding away to fully harness the power of the sun and create a super safe unlimited method of producing enegy, but i do need rests from this endavour which i like to spend on this forum. Fear not though, i will look to the other matters you mentioned once i'm done. Apart from Maddie as 

she's dead


----------



## MontytheMighty

MEQinc said:


> Every time this gets brought up I say the same thing but here goes again, summarized.
> A) Dorn should have been expecting it. You don't confront a deranged butcher in the middle of a fever-dream without at least somewhat anticpating violence.
> B) Dorn is caught completely cold. Regardless of how aware he was of the danger of the situation he walked into he is still a primarch and his reaction speed would represent that. Yet even still Night Haunter can floor him before he's even aware of the blow coming, that shows serious speed.
> C) Night Haunter one shots a Primarch. As in, with one blow he is capable of incapacitating one of the most resilient beings ever. That shows serious hitting power.


I guess Russ must have definitely expected the Lion's punch because Russ had just attacked him and then laughed in his face...the Lion is a total badass since he floored Russ with his super speed  

on a more serious note, the side taking initiative can usually catch the other side off-guard, it's not that amazing when both individuals are on the same power level 

sounds to me like you're saying Dorn knew that Curze would probably go berserk and make a vicious attempt on his life 
yet he chose to confront Curze by walking up to him and yelling in his face, leaving himself vulnerable to a sudden attack...frankly, that's not something an intelligent person would do, much less a primarch.

I don't think Dorn was that rash. I reckon he knew Curze was unstable and maybe even expected a brawl, but he did not expect Curze to go so far as to try to murder a brother primarch on the spot 

I doubt Dorn would have knowingly put himself in a situation which might result in one primarch killing another. It would have been abhorrent to him, given his character...only the Emperor can authorize a primarch's death. He simply wasn't expecting that level of sudden violence from Curze. 

In _Dark King_, Curze remembers facing Dorn's stinging accusations _and then_ blacking out (going insane), so Dorn didn't try to confront Curze while Curze was already frothing at the mouth. Curze suddenly snapped and turned on him.


----------



## ckcrawford

Damn this thread is old. How the heck did this come back to life?

Well I guess its a chance for me to defend myself.




Baron Spikey said:


> The way you present it ckcrawford is as if the Night Lords took it down themselves, instead it was really a Thunderhawk unleashing a load of missiles pretty much right in the Titan's face to strip away it's Void Shields and then a Land Raider punishing it with as much firepower as possible before it could retaliate.


Well I guess its how you look at my post. Having the plasma bomb go off under the titan's foot and the lone missle launcher dude who gave his life for those moments of distraction really helped. 

Its some pretty good tactic really. In a normal scenario I'm sure the Titan would have rapped the thunderhawk and the land raider. 

I've seen few instances where marines like the scenario I mentioned could work together so coherently and yet independently from one another.


As to the main question: After learning more and more about the Raven Guard, I got to say I'm impressed. They are highly effective force, however, it really seems like they have to get in close to get their skills into play. Which they could do if they were ambushing the Night Lords. Now, if the Night Lords tactics play with small pockets of forces fighting all over the place, I don't think that would help against the Raven Guard. 

I am curious into how they battled the Dark Angels. It seems like they did their job by taking them out of the game for the Siege of Terra. But I'll have to wait to see before I make conclusions. I'm still confused with how they fight real battles. It seems like they try to avoid them.


----------



## Jerushee

I see the Night Lords as the worst match up for the Raven Guard possible. The Raven Guard's specialty is stealth and rapid hit and run warfare, as well as up close combat. However they are fighting the Night Lords who are arguably greater then or equal to the Raven Guard in terms of stealth warfare, and arguably greater then or equal to the Raven Guard in rapid hit and run warfare.

The entire specialty and advantage the Raven Guard would have over any other Legion, is almost entirely neutralized and works against them. The Raven Guard are facing the Night Lords, where their preferred tactics of stealth and hit and run would be greatly ineffective as the Night Lords are greater or equal masters of the craft them self. Eliminating any advantage of surprise or unexpected combat tactic, also eliminating the advantage of the Raven Guard being able to ambush the Night Lords or disorganize them with hit and run.

While comparitively the Night Lords retain all of their advantages over the Raven Guard, and on top of this their craft of psychological warfare would be even more effective. As the Night Lords would know the minds and the workings of the Raven Guard more so then any other Legion in the Imperium, as they are so similar in tactic, craft, and strategy. 

In other words, to put it in a simplistic way, to illustrate that the Night Lords advantage is at its greatest, and the Raven Guard's advantage is eliminated and playing at their greatest disadvantage is akin to saying

The Night Lords are Fire, the Raven Guard are Grass.


----------



## Weapon

Baron Spikey said:


> Did I say anything about the Night Lords not using heavy equipment? No.
> (In fact I'm fairly sure I specifically pointed out that they did)
> 
> Did I object to the way a post was worded that seemed to suggest 3 Night Lord Chaos Space Marines took down a Titan? Yes.
> 
> So the way I see it your argument is redundant, using the same equipment and tactics ANY Legion could have performed a similar feat- the fact that it was Night Lords utilising a Thunderhawk-Land Raider combo makes it neither more or less awesome.
> 
> So it would have been the same result if it had been a RAVEN GUARD Thunderhawk, and a RAVEN GUARD Land Raider- or, fuck it, a CARE BEARS Thunderhawk, and a CARE BEARS Land Raider.


You implied that their weapons did all the work.

That is my beef good sir.

And are the CARE BEARS one of the missing legions?
That would be cool.
But not as cool as the Night Lords.
Or their Thunderhawk.


----------



## Angel of Blood

What? Where on earth did you get the impression that the Night Lords were greater than the Raven Guard at hit and run or stealth?? The Raven Guard are arguably the greatest masters of this warfare, their primarch can outright make others not see him and the rest of the legion/chapter in various books have shown an amazing apitutde for stealth, even from other astartes.

Why would the Night Lords psychological warfare be even more effective. Its arguably going to be alot less effective with the astartes psycho-indoctrination. They can face down deamons and primarchs at times, somehow i doubt they are going to break down because they Night Lords attempt some scare tactics. I mean really what could they do to scare the Raven Guard to becoming ineffective? Give me some good hard examples.

There is no reason the Raven Guards tactics can't work on the Night Lords, none at all, if the Night Lords choose a large open battle, the Raven Guard simply go to ground and start guerilla warfare. If the Night Lords attempt the same they will be outclassed as that is the RG forte


----------



## MEQinc

MontytheMighty said:


> I guess Russ must have definitely expected the Lion's punch because Russ had just attacked him and then laughed in his face...the Lion is a total badass since he floored Russ with his super speed


Russ probably did expect the Lions punch and willfully held himself back because he trusted his brother. Dorn and Night Haunter had no such bond, I highly doubt that Dorn would trust Night Haunter to hold back.



> on a more serious note, the side taking initiative can usually catch the other side off-guard, it's not that amazing when both individuals are on the same power level


Initiative is great, so why didn't Dorn use it? After all HE initiated the confrontation, he chose when to approach Curze, he chose how to approach him. Night Haunter escalated the engagement but he did not initiate it. 



> sounds to me like you're saying Dorn knew that Curze would probably go berserk and make a vicious attempt on his life
> yet he chose to confront Curze by walking up to him and yelling in his face, leaving himself vulnerable to a sudden attack...frankly, that's not something an intelligent person would do, much less a primarch.


Yet that's exactly what he did. He walked up to a deranged killer and verbally assaulted him. To not expect (even slightly) that this might send him off the deep end is sheer idiocy. 



> I don't think Dorn was that rash. I reckon he knew Curze was unstable and maybe even expected a brawl, but he did not expect Curze to go so far as to try to murder a brother primarch on the spot


If he expected a brawl then how was Night Haunter able to dominate him so completely? Because he's just that deadly.


I mean at the end of the day, Curze is Batman. And Batman can't lose. He'll just make some anti-Corax spray and the RG will be toast.


----------



## gen.ahab

I am not going to give anything to Night Haunter simply because he was able to sucker-punch Dorn. Dorn was a narcissist whose ego could eclipse that of many of the other primarchs(over exaggeration), he probably didn't think that Haunter would have to stones to take him on. When it comes down to it, it would seem that Dorn didn't have his guard up and was knocked on his ass for his lack of foresight. To me, that in no way implies that Night Haunter is a CC badass. 

In no way are the NL the RG better when it comes to H&R guerrilla tactics. The RG probably wrote the damn book, or at least that entry in the codex.


----------



## MEQinc

Angel of Blood said:


> Why would the Night Lords psychological warfare be even more effective. Its arguably going to be alot less effective with the astartes psycho-indoctrination. They can face down deamons and primarchs at times, somehow i doubt they are going to break down because they Night Lords attempt some scare tactics. I mean really what could they do to scare the Raven Guard to becoming ineffective? Give me some good hard examples.


I beleive what he was going with was the idea that the Raven Guard and the Night Lords would have very similar psychologies given their similar m.o's. Meaning that the Night Lords would know the Raven Guard as well as they know themselves and thus have a slight advantage when it comes to knowing their weaknesses.

Things I could do to scare the Raven Guard into becoming ineffective? Easy. Threaten that which they hold most dear. Their Primarch. Their people. Hold a world to ransom and you force them to fight you or see their resolve weaken as they turn their backs on all they stand for. Corax is known to preform solo-ops. Delay his return, cut him from their communications and declare him dead. Show them a body. Make them believe, even for a moment, that their father is gone and see them fracture. Watch as they never let him leave again. Watch as they begin to question his leadership, his loyalty to them. Watch as they tear themselves apart. 



> There is no reason the Raven Guards tactics can't work on the Night Lords, none at all, if the Night Lords choose a large open battle, the Raven Guard simply go to ground and start guerilla warfare. If the Night Lords attempt the same they will be outclassed as that is the RG forte


This is exactly why I said that the Night Lords would have to force an open conflict to win. However I don't think the Raven Guard are such masters at guerilla combat that they can so easily outclass a foe who does it almost as well as they do. Really a guerilla war were both sides fight guerilla style would be almost completely uneventfull. No targets to hit, no victories to achieve, no people to kill. Just lots of running in circles chasing each others shadows.



gen.ahab said:


> I am not going to give anything to Night Haunter simply because he was able to sucker-punch Dorn. Dorn was a narcissistic whose ego could eclipse that of many of the other primarchs, he probably didn't think that Haunter would have to stones to take him on. When it comes down to it, it would seem that Dorn didn't have his guard up and was knocked on his ass for his lack of foresight. To me, that in no way implies that Night Haunter is a CC badass.


Well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I would however like to see some evidence of Dorn's massive ego. 



> In no way are the NL the RG better when it comes to H&R guerrilla tactics. The RG probably wrote the damn book, or at least that entry in the codex.


While that's true I have no doubt that the Night Lords would have added to that section. And I for one do not understand how we can be so quick to dismiss the Night Lords area of mastery (one which is completely unopposed by the Raven Guard) yet cannot be so bold with the Raven Guard despite the fact that the Night Lords are also quite skilled in this area. 

Psychological warfare works on Astartes. Fear works on Astartes. Sure it's a different kind of fear but as un-paralleled masters of the art I doubt the Night Lords would be unaware of how to exploit their own psychology. Guerilla warfare doesn't work very well against a foe that is also using it.


----------



## gen.ahab

MEQinc said:


> gen.ahab said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to give anything to Night Haunter simply because he was able to sucker-punch Dorn. Dorn was a narcissistic whose ego could eclipse that of many of the other primarchs, he probably didn't think that Haunter would have to stones to take him on. When it comes down to it, it would seem that Dorn didn't have his guard up and was knocked on his ass for his lack of foresight. To me, that in no way implies that Night Haunter is a CC badass.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, that is the unedited version. In the edit I admitted that I exaggerated on the point of his ego. It probably wasn't significantly more inflated than the rest
> 
> Well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I would however like to see some evidence of Dorn's massive ego.
> 
> 
> 
> While that's true I have no doubt that the Night Lords would have added to that section. And I for one do not understand how we can be so quick to dismiss the Night Lords area of mastery (one which is completely unopposed by the Raven Guard) yet cannot be so bold with the Raven Guard despite the fact that the Night Lords are also quite skilled in this area.
Click to expand...


Seemed massively arrogant in "The Flight of The Eisentein", at least to me that is. Still, it doesn't change the fact that Dorn wasn't in a fighting stance. 

True enough, but I don't see fear being nearly as effective when employed against a marine, but thats just my opinion.


----------



## MEQinc

gen.ahab said:


> Seemed massively arrogant in "The Flight of The Eisentein", at least to me that is. Still, it doesn't change the fact that Dorn wasn't in a fighting stance.


I don't exactly recall Dorn's words and actions in FotE but I got the impression he was more doubting Garro due to Horus being a beloved and trusted brother rather than out of a beleif that he (Dorn) couldn't be wrong. Is that what you're refering to? Or was there something else I've forgotten?

And Dorn should have been in a fighting stance. Are we explictedly told he wasn't? Because there's no logical reason (beyond sheer arrogance or complete delusion) that he wouldn't have approached his violent and unhinged (at best) brother with very serious accusations without expecting some kind of violent response. 



> True enough, but I don't see fear being nearly as effective when employed against a marine, but thats just my opinion.


I'll admit fear wouldn't be as effective a weapon against a marine as it is against an untrained PDFer. However in a battle as close as I expect this one to be any advantage can pay massive divideds. All it takes is one mental slip and a legion could see itself in tatters and I fully expect the Night Lords to force that slip before they suffer one.


----------



## gen.ahab

MEQinc said:


> I don't exactly recall Dorn's words and actions in FotE but I got the impression he was more doubting Garro due to Horus being a beloved and trusted brother rather than out of a beleif that he (Dorn) couldn't be wrong. Is that what you're refering to? Or was there something else I've forgotten?
> 
> And Dorn should have been in a fighting stance. Are we explictedly told he wasn't? Because there's no logical reason (beyond sheer arrogance or complete delusion) that he wouldn't have approached his violent and unhinged (at best) brother with very serious accusations without expecting some kind of violent response.


It was partially that, but it was also the way he held himself seemed to me to be aloof and superior, he just came off to me as arrogant prick.

He seemed angry to me. It simply could have been so pissed off he wasn't paying attention. I have seen that happen to a few people.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MEQinc said:


> I beleive what he was going with was the idea that the Raven Guard and the Night Lords would have very similar psychologies given their similar m.o's. Meaning that the Night Lords would know the Raven Guard as well as they know themselves and thus have a slight advantage when it comes to knowing their weaknesses.
> 
> Things I could do to scare the Raven Guard into becoming ineffective? Easy. Threaten that which they hold most dear. Their Primarch. Their people. Hold a world to ransom and you force them to fight you or see their resolve weaken as they turn their backs on all they stand for. Corax is known to preform solo-ops. Delay his return, cut him from their communications and declare him dead. Show them a body. Make them believe, even for a moment, that their father is gone and see them fracture. Watch as they never let him leave again. Watch as they begin to question his leadership, his loyalty to them. Watch as they tear themselves apart.


That is all one massive assumption, you have no idea whether the RG would react like that at all, and i don't think they would. And what about the RG whilst the NL are attempting all this. As they try and accomplish those goals the RG are behind their lines, cutting off communication between the fleets, sabotaging them at every turn, assasinatons aren't beyond them either. And if they have very similar psychologies then the RG would by your reckoning also know the NL weaknesses, play them against each other, watch the rivalries tear themselves apart, plot against each other. And never let the primarch leave? Yeah like they would even attempt that, and like Corax would actually let them. On the other hand the RG could just as easily play along once they find out Corax is still alive, lead the NL to believe they are fracturing and at the breaking point, as the NL get overconfident and close in, the RG fully rally and punish them for their overconfidence. 




MEQinc said:


> This is exactly why I said that the Night Lords would have to force an open conflict to win. However I don't think the Raven Guard are such masters at guerilla combat that they can so easily outclass a foe who does it almost as well as they do. Really a guerilla war were both sides fight guerilla style would be almost completely uneventfull. No targets to hit, no victories to achieve, no people to kill. Just lots of running in circles chasing each others shadows.


The Night Lords have never been stated to particularly excel at guerilla warfare, whereas the RG are explicity stated to be masters of covert ops, stealth, hit and run and guerilla warfare. 





MEQinc said:


> Guerilla warfare doesn't work very well against a foe that is also using it.


It does when the foe are vastly better at it, having dedicated their entire combat doctrine to it, perfected it and sharpened it to a knife edge.


----------



## Weapon

PRETTY SURE that we don't know if Dorn was "sucker punched" or not.

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong to believe that he was, just that I could argue that Dorn had a helmet on (Or something similar) without proof in the same sense.

I haven't actually seen the extract, so if someone can prove me wrong then I'd welcome it.

Just throwing that out there.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Theres literally no evidence of what happened. It pretty much just states one minute they are talking, well Dorn is berating Kurze, the next minute Dorns bodyguard run in and find Kurze knelt over the prone and bloodied form of Dorn with no memory of what happened, and then Kurze flees.


----------



## MEQinc

Angel of Blood said:


> That is all one massive assumption, you have no idea whether the RG would react like that at all, and i don't think they would.


And that's fair. Psychological warfare is based on assumptions. I based mine on limited knowledge because as an outside observe with limited interest in the Raven Guard I have limited intel about them. You can bet the Night Lords would not be in the same boat.

And as for what I based these assumptions on. Marines love their primarch, follow him as a father, some even revere them as demi-gods. This is stated throughout the HH books and I see no reason it wouldn't apply to the Raven Guard, it certainly did to the Night Lords. And I have always pictured the Raven Guard as 'good guys', one of the legions that genuinely care for the people they protect (like the Salamanders but perhaps not to quite the same degree). Corax would certainly love his homeworld as he spent his youth saving it. So I see no reason they would not respond to threats to such institutions other than them expecting a trap and steering clear intentionally in which case welcome to the guilt-trip of your lives boys. 



> And what about the RG whilst the NL are attempting all this. As they try and accomplish those goals the RG are behind their lines, cutting off communication between the fleets, sabotaging them at every turn, assasinatons aren't beyond them either.


The Night Lords will also be doing all of these things. So, congrats I guess, for not sitting there and getting wailed on. 



> And if they have very similar psychologies then the RG would by your reckoning also know the NL weaknesses, play them against each other, watch the rivalries tear themselves apart, plot against each other.


They are welcome to try. As they are better than us at guerilla fighting we outclass them in this arena. I imagine the Night Lords would relish fighting a foe who seeks to turn there tricks against them.



> The Night Lords have never been stated to particularly excel at guerilla warfare, whereas the RG are explicity stated to be masters of covert ops, stealth, hit and run and guerilla warfare.


The Night Lords are noted to be very good at both stealth and hit and run attacks which form an important chunk of guerilla warfare. There is also significant overlap between common means by which psychological and guerilla warfare are carried out.



> It does when the foe are vastly better at it, having dedicated their entire combat doctrine to it, perfected it and sharpened it to a knife edge.


1) Guerilla warfare requires that your foe be largely static, predictable and holding targets of importance to them while you do none of this. Do you not see how can cause problems if both forces are using it? Neither will be static enough to find, predictable enough to counter or holding targets that they can be robbed of. 
2) The Raven Guard are not 'vastly better' at stealth, infiltration or hit-and-run attacks than the Night Lords. They may be better but they are certainly within the same class.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I think the Night Lords believe in their cause a lot more fervently than the Raven Guard. A lot of the NL if I am not mistaken are remnants of the original legion and have actually walked alongside their Primarch. And so in my opinion, they will fight a lot harder and more savagely because their cause is greater and fresher in their minds. 

The RG also lost like 90% of their original recruits so most of them are new and never have met their Primarch while the majority of the NG have and due to their long lives, are more accustomed to certain aspects of warfare. And what do the RG fight for? The Emperor? That's a very generic, and vague goal while the NG have a singular and more specific goal, to tear down the empire of the greatest traitor they know and whose sermons they probably witnessed first hand. 

The NL know their enemy while the RG don't know their master.

Having just listened to the audiobook, "Throne of Lies" I was really struck at how much the Night Lords loved their Primarch, I just haven't seen this connection with any other Primarch especially when there is a gap of over 10k years.

As some have already mentioned, I think the NL are excellent in both arenas, stealth and psychological warfare. While the latter may not work as effectively on an Astartes, it can work on them in other ways than straight up terror tactics. 

As for the former, I think the NL outclass the RG when it comes to shadowy, dark envrionments. Everything about their lifestyle is shrouded in the dark, they never have lights on aboard their ships and if they do, it's for the crew and usually on an extremely low dim setting.

I think the RG form of stealth/infiltration is more confined to open terrain and daylight while the NG are better with indoor settings and when it's dark. 

The RG are good at ambushing convoys and supply lines while the NL are more adept with drop-podding into a base and wiping out everything in one go under the cover of night. 

My 2 c.


----------



## Weapon

For what it's worth...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_Lords
States a load of crap about the Night Haunter, not really useful tbh

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raven_Guard
States that the Raven guard are all about hit and run stuff and hitting weak points.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Night_Lords
States that the Night Lords are the masters of stealth and are all about fear and causing confusion. They cut off communication etc. (Could be after the heresy though)

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Raven_Guard
States that they refrain from protracted warfare and love guerrilla tactics.


From what I can see, they're actually very, very similar.

I really don't think that either legion was actually better than the other, they just did the same thing with a few small(Or big, e.g. the whole fear thing) tweaks.

Someone else make sense of this post.

I'm going to bed.


----------



## DeathGuardGarro

why did the emperor want coraz killed?


----------



## MEQinc

DeathGuardGarro said:


> why did the emperor want coraz killed?


I think it was just set up for a hypothetical conflict. After all he said that they were both ordered to kill each other. There is no logical reason why the Emperor would order this except to test the legions.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

DeathGuardGarro said:


> why did the emperor want coraz killed?


Kurze was getting out of control. 

He didn't want him killed at first, he wanted him to be brought back to the palace to stand trial.

Once the HH happened and Kurze went on a rampage killing countless civilian worlds he had a bounty on his head.

edit:

Wait you mean corax the RG priamrch? He wasn't ordered to be killed.


----------



## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> Why would the Night Lords psychological warfare be even more effective. Its arguably going to be alot less effective with the astartes psycho-indoctrination. They can face down deamons and primarchs at times, somehow i doubt they are going to break down because they Night Lords attempt some scare tactics. I mean really what could they do to scare the Raven Guard to becoming ineffective? Give me some good hard examples.


I agree, even if it did get to the astartes psychologically, they are able to control their minds and bodies, especially after all the training they've put themselves into. Not to mention the mechanics of their bodies. So though they might go "well... this is some fucked up shit." It wouldn't really effect them and make them run around the battle field crying for their moms. Most likely they'd be disgusted and just go into a stronger frenzy to kill the mother fuckers.



Angel of Blood said:


> There is no reason the Raven Guards tactics can't work on the Night Lords, none at all, if the Night Lords choose a large open battle, the Raven Guard simply go to ground and start guerilla warfare. If the Night Lords attempt the same they will be outclassed as that is the RG forte


I disagree with this one. The Raven Guard are really good at close combat and stealth. And the one instance where they did charge an open battle field they were destroyed as a legion and were never able to recover. In the Battle of Istvaan they did lose the most astartes than any of the other legions that took part. Salamanders where small as shit compared to them and the Iron Hands only had their Veterans. 

It was because of this tactic they were not able to defend themselves. In fact, they never stood a chance of even putting up a fight until they reached the mountains in _Raven's Flight_. Though Corax says it was only because the Raven Guard like to run away to fight again that they were able to escape the massacre entirely, it was really because they had the most number. If any loyalists had a survival chance the best one for that would probably be the Raven Guard. And its simply because they had more names in the hat.


----------



## DeathGuardGarro

does the og post state that the Emperor ordered the Night Lords to kill Corax and the Raven Guard to kill the Night Lords. Why Im asking is that why would Corax be wanted dead? or am i missing something


----------



## Klaivex

ckcrawford said:


> I disagree with this one. The Raven Guard are really good at close combat and stealth. And the one instance where they did charge an open battle field they were destroyed as a legion and were never able to recover. In the Battle of Istvaan they did lose the most astartes than any of the other legions that took part. Salamanders where small as shit compared to them and the Iron Hands only had their Veterans.
> 
> It was because of this tactic they were not able to defend themselves. In fact, they never stood a chance of even putting up a fight until they reached the mountains in _Raven's Flight_. Though Corax says it was only because the Raven Guard like to run away to fight again that they were able to escape the massacre entirely, it was really because they had the most number. If any loyalists had a survival chance the best one for that would probably be the Raven Guard. And its simply because they had more names in the hat.


The Raven Guard didn't charge into an open battle field. They waited until the defenders were at their weakest after the attacks of the Iron Hands and Salamanders, and then attacked. It was very tactical and not just a headlong rush at the enemy. They unfortunately were ambushed by the worst possible legion for them to fight. Raven Guard may be good in CC but World Eaters were pure CC experts.

They didn't suffer really heavy losses until the 2nd wave showed up and their wasn't anything they could really have done about that.

They didn't stand a chance because it was them, a smaller Salamanders legion and an Iron hands force against 8 legions and some titans. The fact that they survived at all once the Iron hands and salamanders were gone is just proof of their level of tactical stealth. 

I feel like Corax is under rated because despite pretty nasty injuries his tactics saved over 3,000 marines against one of (if not the most) the most dangerous combined force in the history of the Imperium. I doubt any other primarch in those unfortunate circumstances could have fared any better or at all.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Klaivex said:


> The Raven Guard didn't charge into an open battle field. They waited until the defenders were at their weakest after the attacks of the Iron Hands and Salamanders, and then attacked. It was very tactical and not just a headlong rush at the enemy. They unfortunately were ambushed by the worst possible legion for them to fight. Raven Guard may be good in CC but World Eaters were pure CC experts.
> 
> They didn't suffer really heavy losses until the 2nd wave showed up and their wasn't anything they could really have done about that.
> 
> They didn't stand a chance because it was them, a smaller Salamanders legion and an Iron hands force against 8 legions and some titans. The fact that they survived at all once the Iron hands and salamanders were gone is just proof of their level of tactical stealth.
> 
> I feel like Corax is under rated because despite pretty nasty injuries his tactics saved over 3,000 marines against one of (if not the most) the most dangerous combined force in the history of the Imperium. I doubt any other primarch in those unfortunate circumstances could have fared any better or at all.


 
:goodpost:


----------



## You Naughty Monsters

Malus Darkblade said:


> I think the Night Lords believe in their cause a lot more fervently than the Raven Guard. A lot of the NL if I am not mistaken are remnants of the original legion and have actually walked alongside their Primarch. And so in my opinion, they will fight a lot harder and more savagely because their cause is greater and fresher in their minds.
> 
> The RG also lost like 90% of their original recruits so most of them are new and never have met their Primarch while the majority of the NG have and due to their long lives, are more accustomed to certain aspects of warfare. And what do the RG fight for? The Emperor? That's a very generic, and vague goal while the NG have a singular and more specific goal, to tear down the empire of the greatest traitor they know and whose sermons they probably witnessed first hand.
> 
> The NL know their enemy while the RG don't know their master.
> 
> Having just listened to the audiobook, "Throne of Lies" I was really struck at how much the Night Lords loved their Primarch, I just haven't seen this connection with any other Primarch especially when there is a gap of over 10k years.


1) The RG would be fighting with corax, the question posed says the order is given to both primarchs, its not a 40k question. 

2) The Nightlords in thrones of lies have only been without their primarch for 100 years not 10k years, from their point of view.

3) Corax and the RG would win because they would have a headstart. The OP says Corax gets his orders first. Simples :biggrin:


----------



## ckcrawford

Klaivex said:


> The Raven Guard didn't charge into an open battle field. They waited until the defenders were at their weakest after the attacks of the Iron Hands and Salamanders, and then attacked. It was very tactical and not just a headlong rush at the enemy. They unfortunately were ambushed by the worst possible legion for them to fight. Raven Guard may be good in CC but World Eaters were pure CC experts.


I refuse to think they were only used to charge a flank when they make up over 75% of the first wave. And though they were falling back for reinforcements of the second wave, the fact they retreated across the open field without tactic, and this original argument about gorilla warfare, shows that though they tried to flank the enemy they didn't do so with a majority of their force.

If you think about it, the traitor legions will make short on the remaining Iron Hands and will probably shoot the living shit out of the Raven Gaurd and Salamanders as they retreat across the whole field. And then you have the second wave which was traitor just highlighting their stupid retreat. If they had use the mountains and hills just to escape the artillary from the main traitor force, that alone could have created problems for the second wave firing at them.

Why didn't they use the terrain towards their advantage? Well probably because they were too big of a legion at that point to use them.


Think about it like this. You have thousands of troops in armor running across the field instead of going through the harder terrain they originally had their priorities on. 

So I don't really understand your argument over the original topic but the thing is the Raven Guard are ill suited to with open warfare. Gorilla tactics can really only be used with terrain and hit and run. Therefore, ignoring open warfare. 




Klaivex said:


> They didn't stand a chance because it was them, a smaller Salamanders legion and an Iron hands force against 8 legions and some titans. The fact that they survived at all once the Iron hands and salamanders were gone is just proof of their level of tactical stealth.
> 
> I feel like Corax is under rated because despite pretty nasty injuries his tactics saved over 3,000 marines against one of (if not the most) the most dangerous combined force in the history of the Imperium. I doubt any other primarch in those unfortunate circumstances could have fared any better or at all.


A few remain Salamanders also survived, and stayed on the planet a lot longer than the Raven Guard. Though this legion isn't really known for being tactically gifted. 

We can't argue that the tactical stealth of the Raven Guard did not contribute to their survival. But the primary reason why they survived was the fact the fact they did have quite a few astartes to take up fire power while others were able to run away. Had it been a legion with 10,000 less astartes, the legion may have been obliterated all together. 

We even see instances of the Raven Guard able to reach the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers. So though all those legions were able to fire all those rounds and artillary into the Raven Guard's ranks and still have them penetrate. The Raven Guard were able to absorb that fire power due to their size.


----------



## Klaivex

ckcrawford said:


> I refuse to think they were only used to charge a flank when they make up over 75% of the first wave. And though they were falling back for reinforcements of the second wave, the fact they retreated across the open field without tactic, and this original argument about gorilla warfare, shows that though they tried to flank the enemy they didn't do so with a majority of their force.


The Raven Guard were tasked with attacking the right flank. You can choose to not believe that but that's how it was written.

The flanks of an army can be the most vulnerable targets so that's the perfect place for an army like the RG to hit. It is there specialty. 

As for making up 75% of the army, that doesn't really mean that a flank attack wasn't the best tactical move for them. The Iron Hands with all their terminators were an elite spear head, perfect for taking the majority of the fire and pushing through the main section of defenders. The right flank, which I can only assume was a more important target, as the larger force was sent to deal with it, was the best possible target for the RG. 

When the retreat was called Corax made the call to evacuate by any means necessary which would probably have made use of cover but his plan was interrupted by artillery coming from a direction artillery should not have been fired from. Tactics have nothing to due with the losses from the actual drop site. No one expects their brother to shoot them in the back.

Had Corax not stoped to argue with Vulkan, their probably would have been far more survivors. Vulkan wanted to go back to the drop site where it would have been complete slaughter while corax planed and was in the process of disappearing into the landscape when the attack came.



> If you think about it, the traitor legions will make short on the remaining Iron Hands and will probably shoot the living shit out of the Raven Guard and Salamanders as they retreat across the whole field. And then you have the second wave which was traitor just highlighting their stupid retreat. If they had use the mountains and hills just to escape the artillery from the main traitor force, that alone could have created problems for the second wave firing at them.


I disagree that their retreat was stupid. They were moving back to a more defensible position with a massive amount of reinforcements. That's exactly where I would have been heading to in a pinch. The fact that the reinforcements were bad guys as well shouldn't be taken into account as it was not known at the time of the retreat.

Again Corax ordered retreat by any means necessary which would most certainly make use of the terrain but the "reinforcements" acted before or as those orders were being acted out. And the fact that some did survive and weren't destroyed in the cross fire is proof of the fact that his order was correct while Ferrus and Vulcan made the wrong calls.


> Why didn't they use the terrain towards their advantage? Well probably because they were too big of a legion at that point to use them.


They did when it was feasible for them to do so.



> So I don't really understand your argument over the original topic but the thing is the Raven Guard are ill suited to with open warfare. Gorilla tactics can really only be used with terrain and hit and run. Therefore, ignoring open warfare.


Raven Guard excel in guerrilla tactics (Gorilla tactics are something much more hairy with lots of chest beating:laugh but those kind of tactics do not work in the type of mission they were undertaking. 

Guerrilla warfare only works with a smaller force using sabotage and ambush tactics to disrupt a larger force destroying it over time. What was happening on Istvaan V was a multi directional mass invasion with the goal of swift and total annihilation of the enemy. And despite having an exceptional talent for the tactics you are talking about, they are still space marines and can fight in anyway they need to or are ordered to.




> A few remain Salamanders also survived, and stayed on the planet a lot longer than the Raven Guard. Though this legion isn't really known for being tactically gifted.
> 
> We can't argue that the tactical stealth of the Raven Guard did not contribute to their survival. But the primary reason why they survived was the fact the fact they did have quite a few astartes to take up fire power while others were able to run away. Had it been a legion with 10,000 less astartes, the legion may have been obliterated all together.
> 
> We even see instances of the Raven Guard able to reach the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers. So though all those legions were able to fire all those rounds and artillary into the Raven Guard's ranks and still have them penetrate. The Raven Guard were able to absorb that fire power due to their size.[/


I should have made myself more clear. I meant when the Salamanders were out of the immediate conflict, leaving just the Raven Guard by themselves.

Personally I have to disagree with you on you oppinion. I feel they would have suffered fewer casualties (percentage wise) if they had attacked with a smaller force. As we both have pointed out the RG excel at hit and run which is MUCH easier when you don't have to hit and run with ~80,000 other guys. Had the RG divided its force into small groups and just gone for vital spots to weaken the defenders for the Iron Hands assault with the Salamanders forming a rear guard I'm guessing the the battle have been much worse for the traitors (not that the Imperials would have won but it probably would have been much less harsh).


As for the original questions I never answered so I suppose I will seeing as I have nothing better to do right now:

1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?

I am going to have to say Raven Guard. I don't think there is much information on either legions fleets but the RG did manage to get a ship to Istvaan V, get passed all defendants and escape. That's probably just poor writing but it is an accomplishment.

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?

If it is large scale as in civil war style both armies charging at each other on the battle field, I would probably say it would be brutal on both sides but Night Lords would have the edge. 

If it was full legions but they were "combat squad-ed" I would give it to the Raven Guard. The benefit of the large number of scouts setting traps and or relaying positions would be the factor that would tip it in their favor.

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.

I'm going to go with Raven Guard. They seem to be more effective the fewer of them there are.

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?

I think It would be like a lion hunting a tiger who is hunting a lion. Very little defence going on.

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?

I'm guessing it would long as both armies rely on stealth and they would spend a lot of time hiding from each other waiting for the right opportunity. I think the RG guerilla tactics would win out over the NL terror tactics.

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?

Whoever gets the drop on the other. I lean twords the RG as the large number of scouts could relay positions quickly.

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
Konrad is better at assassinations and acting by himself. Corax is better at leading a group so is more likely to survive an assassination attempt with the help of his warriors.

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
Corax. I think he is more tactical and would be able to read Konrads moves.

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name). 
I think Corax is a better Primarch all around. He is a born leader as proven by his actions on deliverance, he turned slaves into warriors. Konrad had to learn how to lead by Fulgrim and has a temper and sometimes makes rash decisions, like flooring Dorn (which was awesome as I hate Dorn)


----------



## ckcrawford

Klaivex said:


> The Raven Guard were tasked with attacking the right flank. You can choose to not believe that but that's how it was written.
> 
> The flanks of an army can be the most vulnerable targets so that's the perfect place for an army like the RG to hit. It is there specialty.


They may have been tasked, what from what we have read only 10,000- to perhaps 15,000 of that wave made up that flank. Leaves a good chunk unexplained. So I think its safe to assume they ran most of their legion behind Ferrus Manus'.



Klaivex said:


> As for making up 75% of the army, that doesn't really mean that a flank attack wasn't the best tactical move for them. The Iron Hands with all their terminators were an elite spear head, perfect for taking the majority of the fire and pushing through the main section of defenders. The right flank, which I can only assume was a more important target, as the larger force was sent to deal with it, was the best possible target for the RG.


Its actually much simpler than that. When the enemy see's that 75% of the enemies force is attacking in one side, it manoevers their men to counter this. Its redicolous to think they wouldn't try to counter that. 80,000 astartes let alone an entire legion is too hard to conceal for a flanking manoever. And lets be real, the main reason the Iron Hands where at it spear tip was because Ferrus was blinded with hatred and vengeance.



Klaivex said:


> When the retreat was called Corax made the call to evacuate by any means necessary which would probably have made use of cover but his plan was interrupted by artillery coming from a direction artillery should not have been fired from. Tactics have nothing to due with the losses from the actual drop site. No one expects their brother to shoot them in the back.


Your making it sound as if they were getting slaughtered. Corax really did not really need to hurry down the field as you suggest. The battle was pretty much a stalemate for a bit with victory at the brink of the end.



> The slaughter continued unabated, on a scale never before seen, with neither side able to press home with their advantages. The traitors were dug in and had defensive positions, but the loyalists had landed virtually on top of the with vast numerical superiority. Page 467 _Fulgrim[_/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The traitor forces were holding, but their line was bending beneath the fury of the loyalist assault. It would take only the smallest twists of fate for it to break. And then it came. (Reinforcements) Page 472 _Fulgrim_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The traitors were falling back from the loyalists with increasing speed... He watched the enemy line melt before him (Ferrus Manus), the loyalist warriors exhausted by the furious battle, stumbling as their enemy fled before them. He called his Morlocks to him before opening a channel to Corax and Vulkan.
> 
> "The enemy is beaten!' he shouted. 'See how they run from us! Now we push on, let none escape our vengeance!' Page 476 _Fulgrim_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Hold Ferrus! Victory may be ours, but let our allies earn their share of honour in this battle. Page 476 _Fulgrim_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See, Corax acknowledges victory around the corner. But instead of perhaps finishing the battle against the greatest enemy he has ever faced, he decides to play games and play honor rolls, at a time when the legions should feel shame over such an incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The traitors are beaten and all it will take is one final push to destroy them utterly. Page 477 _Fulgrim_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is interesting. Because if this is true, this shows incompetence of both Vulkan and Corax. If they had destroyed them utterly, the four legions attacking them from behind would have been a different story. In a sense, you have three legions that could take control of the high ground. Instead both Vulkan and Corax, who both have the their legions behind them decide to go across the whole field. THE WHOLE FUCKING FIELD! Does no one else see how stupid this is? Even if they were just regrouping, why not just wait for them while having control of the high ground. Complete stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> Klaivex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had Corax not stoped to argue with Vulkan, their probably would have been far more survivors. Vulkan wanted to go back to the drop site where it would have been complete slaughter while corax planed and was in the process of disappearing into the landscape when the attack came.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But so did Corax. Corax wanted his other brothers to get honor. They both decided to get back to the drop site. It wasn't until they were getting the shit shot at them they decided to flee to the hills. Completely due to the fact they still had enough men to make it up the hills. Until then you can't really say their gorilla and hit and run tactics did anything to protect them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Klaivex said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that their retreat was stupid. They were moving back to a more defensible position with a massive amount of reinforcements. That's exactly where I would have been heading to in a pinch. The fact that the reinforcements were bad guys as well shouldn't be taken into account as it was not known at the time of the retreat.
> 
> Again Corax ordered retreat by any means necessary which would most certainly make use of the terrain but the "reinforcements" acted before or as those orders were being acted out. And the fact that some did survive and weren't destroyed in the cross fire is proof of the fact that his order was correct while Ferrus and Vulcan made the wrong calls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Firstly, I wouldn't call it a retreat. It was them just trying to get comfortable. And there was no reason at this time to go back for reinforcements "by any means necessary" as you say. They were completely comfortable to not destroy the enemy there and then. So they could have tactically retreated back to the reinforcements. Instead you got them running down the field as though they were getting raped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Klaivex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raven Guard excel in guerrilla tactics (Gorilla tactics are something much more hairy with lots of chest beating:laugh but those kind of tactics do not work in the type of mission they were undertaking.
> 
> Guerrilla warfare only works with a smaller force using sabotage and ambush tactics to disrupt a larger force destroying it over time. What was happening on Istvaan V was a multi directional mass invasion with the goal of swift and total annihilation of the enemy. And despite having an exceptional talent for the tactics you are talking about, they are still space marines and can fight in anyway they need to or are ordered to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Could not agree more with this. This is why I think they suffered greatly in Istvaan. It was because they were one dimensional in this aspect. In one of my previous quotes it talks about how each legion did not have their advantage. Even with the Raven Gaurd attacking the right flank and having numerical superiority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Klaivex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I have to disagree with you on you oppinion. I feel they would have suffered fewer casualties (percentage wise) if they had attacked with a smaller force. As we both have pointed out the RG excel at hit and run which is MUCH easier when you don't have to hit and run with ~80,000 other guys. Had the RG divided its force into small groups and just gone for vital spots to weaken the defenders for the Iron Hands assault with the Salamanders forming a rear guard I'm guessing the the battle have been much worse for the traitors (not that the Imperials would have won but it probably would have been much less harsh).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't really understand what we truly disagree on. We both agree that Istvaan was an ill suited spot for this legion. We both see how one dimensional this legion was.
> 
> Perhaps you disagree with my opinion that the Raven Guard did not assault the right flank with all 80,000 of their astartes and 75% of the force. Who cares. The result is the same. The hills were still occupied by the enemy, Corax was a sitting duck the entire battle even though he landed right on top of the enemy on their right flank with numerical superiority. All these facts have been quoted. And still, he feared victory instead going back, across the battle field.
Click to expand...


----------



## MontytheMighty

Weapon said:


> PRETTY SURE that we don't know if Dorn was "sucker punched" or not. Just throwing that out there.


it's heavily implied 
Dorn verbally confronts Curze, Curze blacks out, Curze is on top of Dorn 

given the two primarchs' personalities and values, I highly doubt that Dorn was the physical aggressor 
Curze was the insane madman, not Dorn

I guess you could argue that after Curze blacked out the two had a "even" brawl with Curze emerging the victor but it makes more sense to infer that it was more of a Lion-style surprise attack, especially in light of Curze's insanity


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Overall The Raven Guard are generally the more level headed of the two Legions, one's full of murderers, thieves, vagabonds you name it, the legion is made up of the dregs of an already pathetic society.

The other is lead by a guy who overcame being a prisoner and ended up virus bombing a world into submission and is renowned for being a calm, rational figure. Even Lorgar commented on Corax's usual character, but once he's pissed off he's just as furious and powerful as any other Primarch. The Raven Guard would be more tactically aware, otherwise they wouldn't of done as well as they did retreating from the massacre and they wouldn't of gone on to still fight during the heresy despite their losses. 

In general while Night Lords are cool, I think they lack the leadership qualities as well as possibly the training that the Raven Guard have. The only really advantage the Night Lords would have is numbers.


----------



## Lux

With the new books released, I would say Curze takes the fight against Corax decisively.

Curze has displayed immense durability and endurance, beyond that of any other primarch so far (empowered by nurgle perhaps?)

As well as displaying superior strength to Corax in the Drop site massacre, where Curze with one hand effortlessly pushes both of Corax's lightening claws up in defense of Lorgar, of which it describes that Corax is straining immensely while Curze shows no sign of trying what so ever.


----------



## Captain Stillios

Lux said:


> With the new books released, I would say Curze takes the fight against Corax decisively.
> 
> 
> Curze has displayed immense durability and endurance, beyond that of any other primarch so far (empowered by nurgle perhaps?)
> I dont think that he has actually, the only injuries Curze has so far been seen to have are in Age of Darkness and Lorgars wounds are many times worse than a sword in the back. Also Angron has a large building dropped on him to no effect, Corax himself who manages to sustain himself for more than half a year from the begining of Isstvaan to talking to the Emperor before letting his massive injuries take him down. Overall I dont think that Curze has seen enough ation yet to judge how tough he is.
> 
> As well as displaying superior strength to Corax in the Drop site massacre, where Curze with one hand effortlessly pushes both of Corax's lightening claws up in defense of Lorgar, of which it describes that Corax is straining immensely while Curze shows no sign of trying what so ever.
> Curze only grabs one lightning claw as the other had been shattered by Lorgar, also Corax had just fought Lorgar and had been fighting for a long time before-hand which I think may have tired him to the point of being unable to fairly fight Curze. Remember that Lorgar does still manage to hurt Corax quite badly before getting sliced up.


See above in red


----------



## BlackGuard

I think I will remain out of this conversation as these are my two favorite primarchs. Corax on the Loyalist side, Cruze on the Traitor side.

I would love a series of books about a war between the Raven Guard and Night Lords.


----------



## theurge33

Deliverence Lost pg 21 "Corax knew himself numbered amongst the best fighters in the service of the emporer, and he had never considered Curze his equal. Curze was ill disciplined, capable of sporadic genius but equally prone to moments of emotional blindness, moments a warrior like Corax could exploit with deadly effect."


DL pg 22 "He should have stayed and fought, should have slain the Night Haunter and killed pathetic Lorgar of the Word Bearers straight after, denying the rebels two of their commanders, even though it might have cost him his life."


DL pg 39 "Physically, Horus and Corax had proven and equal match for each other in thei mock duels and wrestling bouts."

And in Raven's flight he speaks of only Horus, Angron and maybe Sanguinius as possibly being greater than him in combat.

These bits always gave me the sense the Corax was one of the top tier fighters, especially how he says he _should have_ slain Curze implying that he could have. Therefore I would say Corax in a straight up contest.


----------



## theurge33

Deliverence Lost pg 21 "Corax knew himself numbered amongst the best fighters in the service of the emporer, and he had never considered Curze his equal. Curze was ill disciplined, capable of sporadic genius but equally prone to moments of emotional blindness, moments a warrior like Corax could exploit with deadly effect."




DL pg 22 "He should have stayed and fought, should have slain the Night Haunter and killed pathetic Lorgar of the Word Bearers straight after, denying the rebels two of their commanders, even though it might have cost him his life."




DL pg 39 "Physically, Horus and Corax had proven and equal match for each other in thei mock duels and wrestling bouts."

And in Raven's flight he speaks of only Horus, Angron and maybe Sanguinius as possibly being greater than him in combat.



These bits always gave me the sense the Corax was one of the top tier fighters, especially how he says he _should have_ slain Curze implying that he could have. Therefore I would say Corax in a straight up contest.


----------



## tabbytomo

Just a thought, but seeing as the Nightlords excelled in in terror tactics and the use of fear, would they not have an acute understanding of what could potentially have an underminning effect on rival astartes, because they are Astartes? even if it's not as effective as it would be on a non-astartes, it would surely still have effect?


----------



## Gret79

theurge33 said:


> Deliverence Lost pg 21 "
> 
> 
> DL pg 22 "He should have stayed and fought, should have slain the Night Haunter and killed pathetic Lorgar of the Word Bearers straight after, denying the rebels two of their commanders, even though it might have cost him his life."
> Why didn't he?
> 
> And in Raven's flight he speaks of only Horus, Angron and maybe Sanguinius as possibly being greater than him in combat.
> 
> These bits always gave me the sense the Corax was one of the top tier fighters, especially how he says he _should have_ slain Curze implying that he could have. Therefore I would say Corax in a straight up contest.


I like how all these quote's are from Corax's point of view. For me that gives them as much creedance as taking the daemon at face value in aurelian.

Also the night lords didn't do too badly against the blood angels in the night lords series - but that was from a night lord perspective. So I'm kinda not surprised.

Although for me they have different modus operandi
The Raven Guard - Hit and Run
The Night Lords - Surprise and Ambush 

The Night Lords win because they have better/more fluff from their point of view...

And I'll freely admit - I AM biased. Love the night lords books. :biggrin:


----------



## Captain Stillios

Corax runs away from Curze because he momentarily fears him as what Corax himself could be if he was batshit crazy and also because he needed to go and help out his legion.


----------



## Lux

Those quotes are purely from Corax own point of view, which once again as been shown in the past books is highly questionable.

Corax views himself as being an equal to horus in combat, additionally he views himself in the top 3 fighters of all the primarchs, hubristic much?

Dorn himself has stated he feared none of the primarchs and felt he was the superior of all of them, does that make him so as well?

Many of the primarchs had inflated views concerning their own self, and downplayed the abilities of those they had contempt for in an effort to protect their own ego.

From a psychological assessment point of view, it would make sense for Corax to convince himself that he is superior to Curze in combat, that he could have killed Curze AND Lorgar if he WANTED to. This is often seen in therapy from individuals who fear some thing/some one, and want to rationalize their fear/failure/inadequacy by externalizing it. 

To me it looks like Corax truly feared Curze, not for some silly reason of "oh I'm going to run because I fear that I may become like him". Corax ran because he feared Curze would straight up kill him, on the very page of the dropsite massacre book it describes in great detail that Corax was pushing down with his entire being to kill Lorgar, while it describes that Curze EFFORTLESSLY was in defensely pushing Corax upward with a single hand, showing no sign of strain what so ever while Corax was displaying heavy signs of strain.


----------



## Klaivex

Lux said:


> Those quotes are purely from Corax own point of view, which once again as been shown in the past books is highly questionable.
> 
> Corax views himself as being an equal to horus in combat, additionally he views himself in the top 3 fighters of all the primarchs, hubristic much?
> 
> Dorn himself has stated he feared none of the primarchs and felt he was the superior of all of them, does that make him so as well?
> 
> Many of the primarchs had inflated views concerning their own self, and downplayed the abilities of those they had contempt for in an effort to protect their own ego.
> 
> From a psychological assessment point of view, it would make sense for Corax to convince himself that he is superior to Curze in combat, that he could have killed Curze AND Lorgar if he WANTED to. This is often seen in therapy from individuals who fear some thing/some one, and want to rationalize their fear/failure/inadequacy by externalizing it.
> 
> To me it looks like Corax truly feared Curze, not for some silly reason of "oh I'm going to run because I fear that I may become like him". Corax ran because he feared Curze would straight up kill him, on the very page of the dropsite massacre book it describes in great detail that Corax was pushing down with his entire being to kill Lorgar, while it describes that Curze EFFORTLESSLY was in defensely pushing Corax upward with a single hand, showing no sign of strain what so ever while Corax was displaying heavy signs of strain.


So Dorn said he was best of the best. Corax admitted to himself that he would get wrecked by Angron and probably Sang as well. Not quite seeing his hubris. 

And Dorn died fighting the crew of a single battleship. Corax survived against 8 legions and direct battle with 2 other primarchs. 

To me it seems like Dorn was arrogant and Corax was probably right about himself.

And i wonder why Corax was showing signs of strain... oh yeah. Because he was in a battle that killed dozens of thousands of astartes and one of his brothers (and Vulcan was assumed dead) and he had been fighting with a fellow primarch, with only a single weapon left. Curze was fresh out of the drop pod. Yeah... Curze had no advantage at all... and he still failed to kill Corax.


----------



## Lux

Klaivex said:


> So Dorn said he was best of the best. Corax admitted to himself that he would get wrecked by Angron and probably Sang as well. Not quite seeing his hubris.
> 
> And Dorn died fighting the crew of a single battleship. Corax survived against 8 legions and direct battle with 2 other primarchs.
> 
> To me it seems like Dorn was arrogant and Corax was probably right about himself.
> 
> And i wonder why Corax was showing signs of strain... oh yeah. Because he was in a battle that killed dozens of thousands of astartes and one of his brothers (and Vulcan was assumed dead) and he had been fighting with a fellow primarch, with only a single weapon left. Curze was fresh out of the drop pod. Yeah... Curze had no advantage at all... and he still failed to kill Corax.



Its left open to interpretation, some sources state they only found Dorn's armor, weapons, and a single skeletal fist of his, nothing else.

So was he killed? Or alive? Thats inherently left open for interpretation.


----------



## Klaivex

His skeleton is encased in amber within an Imperial Fist chapel so unless he left his skeleton behind while he went off adventuring i would say he is pretty dead.


----------



## Lux

Klaivex said:


> His skeleton is encased in amber within an Imperial Fist chapel so unless he left his skeleton behind while he went off adventuring i would say he is pretty dead.


You're going by one source, others say they only found the fist.


----------



## Klaivex

Lux said:


> You're going by one source, others say they only found the fist.


By others do you mean 40K Wiki that can be edited by anyone?


----------



## joebauerek

I state this as a neutral part so I cannot be judged to be biased so here goes

1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?
Not enough information on either so id call it a tie.

2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
This is dependant on the type of "large scale" if mean in a large head on assaults (ie battle lines with large numbers of imperial guard/cultists/attacking and defending fortifications/etc) i would favour the brutality of the Night Lords. 

However if it is only the two groups of marines i would favour the Raven Guard for their ability to strike and withdraw before being detected whilst destroying supply depots and command posts etc. My reasoning for this is whilst the Night Lords specialise in terror and are stealthy to a degree the Raven Guard are superior in this aspect. Therefore the Night Lords cannot terrorise what they cannot find. So in this case Raven Guard. 

So in conclusion it is highly dependent on what kind of large scale is meant.

3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.

Id have to give this to the Raven Guard as they have a highly decentalised command structure and are specialists at what has been described about - hit and run tactics.

4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?

I would say that the Night Lords would be on the offensice due to their brutal nature and the Raven Guard would be on the defensive as I vue gurilla warfare as predominantly a defensive tactic.

5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?

This is hard to judge. I reckon it would drag out for decades and both legions claiming pyhirric victory. In short both will do what they do best and will practically destroy each other before withdrawing.

6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?

I would have to give this to the Raven Guard for their superior stealth ability. They are small unit specialists thus in my opinion giving them the edge of the much more brutal and upfrount Night Lords.

7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?

This would be close but I would give it to Kurze as that is exactly what he was brought up to do. However the most likley to survive an assination attempt would be Corax as he could disapear and meld into the enviroment. As for which is better it depends who can remain undetected the longest (which I think would be Corax but dont know enough on both to be certain).

8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?

This would be increadibly close. Night Hunter would land land a heavy blow but Corax would have struck a hundred lighter blows in the process. Whilst I bet on Corax (i remember hearing that in the first heretic against Logar he was holding back as he was on level of matial prowess as Horus and Sanguinus) I believe it would be decided by who ever lands the first blows.

9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).

This is a tie. As they are both excellent at their resective fields. Corax is a long term fighter who would win in a prolonged war whilst Night Haunter is more shock and awe in winning a short war.

Anyway thats my input.


----------



## darkreever

Lux said:


> You're going by one source, others say they only found the fist.


By others, you mean what was added over at 40k wiki; a site in which anyone can make an edit as long as they register (an ordeal which took me all of two minutes to do mind you.)

At the bottom of those wiki pages they list sources, but there is no citation in the body of work itself for you to double check with, so you would have to go through each and every source for all of the information (which is an incredibly time consuming task.) That would be working under the assumption that all of the sources are given, and none of the information is made up or comes from interpretation.

Lexicanum, on the other hand, doesn't include that extra bit about him being alive. This actually lends credit to it potentially being not true, or at the very least so obscure as to have no sources.

It is much, much harder for someone to edit the pages on Lexicanum. This is first due to the fact that not everyone can make an account; in order to join you need to submit a request to the owners, including (optionally) documentation that would make you an appealing addition to that team amongst other things (like other sites you are a part of, reasoning from your own words.) Only after that request is sent will the Lexi team even consider you, and then they might turn you down.

Lexi pages themselves also not only contain sources, but citations in the body of the pages so that readers can look them up with less issue.



So yeah, definitely do not go by everything you find in 40k wiki; or at least take it with the entire salt shaker in mind.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> on the very page of the dropsite massacre book it describes in great detail that Corax was pushing down with his entire being to kill Lorgar, while it describes that Curze EFFORTLESSLY was in defensely pushing Corax upward with a single hand, showing no sign of strain what so ever while Corax was displaying heavy signs of strain.


Are we forgetting that Curze is fresh whereas Corax has just engaged in a duel with another primarch? One of Corax's lightning claws is shattered, his chestplate is cracked open. If he fights Curze, Lorgar might recover and join the fray, making it a 2 on 1. All the while, Corax's legion is being slaughtered around him. 

Let's not over-sell Corax's abilities, but let's admit that he'd be fighting at a disadvantage.


----------



## meinhardt

The Emperor wouldnt send a bird to do a Wolfs job...


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I don't think anyone takes 40wiki into serious consideration, but if you put aside the well out of date Space Marine, as well as the 40k roleplay deathwatch supplement as both have major problems regarding cannon, and go by the Index Astartes article then it's possible Dorn is alive but it's more 70% he died 30% hoping the fact it only assumes from a first person perspective he died, so that he may of left like Corax etc.

Even big parts of the IA articles are now found to be wrong as well so who knows. I prefer to see Dorn in the same way as Vulkan. Vulkan left a lot of things behind, Dorn left his fist


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> To me it looks like Corax truly feared Curze, not for some silly reason of "oh I'm going to run because I fear that I may become like him". Corax ran because he feared Curze would straight up kill him


Oh yeah, I forgot to address this point specifically 

I think Gav was trying to convey that Corax found Curze so repugnant and disturbing that he would rather not face him. It was a deap-seated disgust that translated into fear. 

I find slugs disgusting. In a way, I "fear" them. If I saw a slug the size of a dog, I would run like a girl instead of smashing it with a bat. If I saw a repulsive, rotting, zombie version of myself, I might flee even though I could smash it to a pulp with a bat.

As for who would win. I think it's deliberately left unclear. ADB seemed to favour Curze, surprise surprise. Gav seems to be trying to rehabilitate Corax's image


----------



## Lux

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think anyone takes 40wiki into serious consideration, but if you put aside the well out of date Space Marine, as well as the 40k roleplay deathwatch supplement as both have major problems regarding cannon, and go by the Index Astartes article then it's possible Dorn is alive but it's more 70% he died 30% hoping the fact it only assumes from a first person perspective he died, so that he may of left like Corax etc.
> 
> Even big parts of the IA articles are now found to be wrong as well so who knows. I prefer to see Dorn in the same way as Vulkan. Vulkan left a lot of things behind, Dorn left his fist


Nice points =)


----------



## Lux

MontytheMighty said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to address this point specifically
> 
> I think Gav was trying to convey that Corax found Curze so repugnant and disturbing that he would rather not face him. It was a deap-seated disgust that translated into fear.
> 
> I find slugs disgusting. In a way, I "fear" them. If I saw a slug the size of a dog, I would run like a girl instead of smashing it with a bat. If I saw a repulsive, rotting, zombie version of myself, I might flee even though I could smash it to a pulp with a bat.
> 
> As for who would win. I think it's deliberately left unclear. ADB seemed to favour Curze, surprise surprise. Gav seems to be trying to rehabilitate Corax's image


One of the conflicting points I have with Corax own perception of the event, is that he views himself so highly and unparalleled except by what he sees as the best (Horus, The Wolf, Sang).

I interpret this as Corax having a fragile ego, and scaffolds it by aligning himself in his own perception as being parallel with the best of the highest tier. He even states that he physically equal with Horus, and perhaps only bested by Sang and the Wolf, this goes to show me he wants to be like them and thus aligns himself with them.

Furthermore I find Corax view of things to be highly inaccurate, Lorgar was defeated by him but Lorgar also inflicted severe damage to Corax as well. Corax truly believed with all conviction that if he had stayed he could have certainly killed Curze (who was fresh, unharmed), who was effortlessly lifting Corax entire weight upward away from Lorgar with but a single hand. Additionally Corax than goes on to say, that not only would be have slain the night haunter and Logar but also perhaps escaped with his life, that to me once again reinforces just how delusional Corax in his perception of reality as it is clouded by Hubris.

Corax views The Night Haunter as what he could have been, some thing less, some thing weaker then what he currently is. It is no wonder he degrades what the night haunter is in both persona, skill, as well as strength and power. It would truly be conflicting with Corax own ethos of self if he acknowledged that the Night Haunter was greater than his own self. Corax was repeatedly buffering his own sense of identity with the crutch of that he was greater, more skilled, stronger than most of the other primarchs, the fact that a monster (in Corax eyes) could be greater than him would have been psychologically devastating.

However I go by whats in the books, and in the book Curze is stated to have effortlessly lifted Corax entire weight that was pressing downward to kill Lorgar, with but a single hand effortlessly showing no signs of strain...he was merely grinning.

Furthermore In Curze's fight with the Lion, even though the Lion got the first strike in by burying his 4 foot sword into the Night Haunter's spine he was still overwhelmed. To the point where the Lion would have likely been killed if not for the interference of his soldiers, the point being Curze has some amazing powers that even the Lion remarked upon. Such as curze's eyes glowing with an unnatural light, a deep corrupt feeling of power coursing through him. Again during that same fight the Lion remarks on Curze's unbelievable strength and durability.


----------



## Klaivex

Lux said:


> One of the conflicting points I have with Corax own perception of the event, is that he views himself so highly and unparalleled except by what he sees as the best (Horus, The Wolf, Sang).


It was Horus, Sang, and Angron...



> Furthermore I find Corax view of things to be highly inaccurate, Lorgar was defeated by him but Lorgar also inflicted severe damage to Corax as well. Corax truly believed with all conviction that if he had stayed he could have certainly killed Curze (who was fresh, unharmed), who was effortlessly lifting Corax entire weight upward away from Lorgar with but a single hand. Additionally Corax than goes on to say, that not only would be have slain the night haunter and Logar but also perhaps escaped with his life, that to me once again reinforces just how delusional Corax in his perception of reality as it is clouded by Hubris.


By severe damage do you mean one hit with his Illuminarum to Coraxes stomach that dented but didn't break his armor, a broken lightning claw and then 4 headbutts? None of that is severe to a primarch by any means. The Lorgar-Corax fight was very much one sided.




> However I go by whats in the books, and in the book Curze is stated to have effortlessly lifted Corax entire weight that was pressing downward to kill Lorgar, with but a single hand effortlessly showing no signs of strain...he was merely grinning.


His entire weight? Corax lost one weapon previously and i don't know about you but i can't bring all my weight down with one hand. Also a fresh off the drop pod primarch is going to show less strain than one who has been fighting for hours, in one of the bloodiest battles in astartes history.

The rest of your crazy theories of Corax's introspection, i will ignore as you were not the author of the book and thusly have no right or ability to accurately decide what the inner thoughts of the characters were.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> what he sees as the best (Horus, The Wolf, Sang).


I believe it's Horus, Angron, and Sang. I don't recall any mention of Russ



> Furthermore I find Corax view of things to be highly inaccurate, Lorgar was defeated by him but Lorgar also inflicted severe damage to Corax as well.


As I recall, Lorgar managed to destroy one of his lightning claws and cracked open his breastplate. I really don't think it would've been wise for Corax (with only one lightning claw) to challenge Curze (with two lightning claws) while Lorgar is recovering on the side. 



> who was effortlessly lifting Corax entire weight upward away from Lorgar with but a single hand.


Curze's arm was lifting Corax's arm. Corax had gravity on his side, Curze had the advantage of being fresh

...also, has it crossed your mind that *Curze could've been concealing his effort*? 
It's a common psychological tactic employed to intimidate one's foe. 



> Furthermore In Curze's fight with the Lion, even though the Lion got the first strike in by burying his 4 foot sword into the Night Haunter's spine he was still overwhelmed. To the point where the Lion would have likely been killed if not for the interference of his soldiers.


Tell that to ADB, who adamantly claims that the Lion very well might've saved himself (ADB himself said something to the effect of "how many times does a protagonist bash the antagonist's head from below with a rock?")


----------



## Lux

"As I recall, Lorgar managed to destroy one of his lightning claws and cracked open his breastplate. I really don't think it would've been wise for Corax (with only one lightning claw) to challenge Curze (with two lightning claws) while Lorgar is recovering on the side."

He also broke Corax nose, knocked him back with a psychic yell as well as other side note damage. The point being if Lorgar did little to nothing than Corax wasn't in bad condition, if anything he was slightly winded. Which only hurts his case more of why he didn't actually stay and kill Curze like he claimed he would have as well as Lorgar afterward.

Did you even read my post? I am stating that Corax stated by his own mouth that he should have stayed and outright killed the Nighthaunter than and there rather than run and afterward kill Lorgar, he further states he may have cost him his life, key word being "MAY"...thats how confident Corax was in his own ability.

If you did read my post, you would see I outlined from several books that Corax is most likely just a very proud if not hubristic being, who is overestimating himself and underestimating.,


----------



## Klaivex

Lux said:


> Did you even read my post? I am stating that Corax stated by his own mouth that he should have stayed and outright killed the Nighthaunter than and there rather than run and afterward kill Lorgar, he further states he may have cost him his life, key word being "MAY"...thats how confident Corax was in his own ability.


He was confidant he could kill Nighthaunter not because he was the best fighter but or even a better fighter but because Curze was prone to emotional blindness despite being a sporadic genius.

Corax's whole modus operandi is exploiting weak points. Curze has one of the biggest, if not the biggest weakness of all the primarchs in that he kind of looses himself to his own deranged mind. 

And confidant in his own ability? In the paragraph after the one you are mentioning he says he resigned himself to die to Angron. He also as you said, said MAY die. He thought he would beat Curze but he didn't know if he would come out alive from that fight. He knew his limitations quite well.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> He also broke Corax nose, knocked him back with a psychic yell as well as other side note damage.


That's why I don't think it's amazing that Curze lifts Corax's arm. Curze is almost 100% fresh. Corax just fought another primarch (received a battering, lost one of his weapons, armour damaged etc.) 



> Did you even read my post? I am stating that Corax stated by his own mouth that he should have stayed and outright killed the Nighthaunter than and there rather than run and afterward kill Lorgar, he further states he may have cost him his life, key word being "MAY"


Of course he says "may". "May" denotes uncertainty. There's always uncertainty when two primarchs go at it, especially when both are good fighters. 

I suppose you could argue that Corax is deluded, but Gav's explanation makes plenty of sense to me. He felt an intense revulsion for Curze and he chose flight over fight. Other factors probably weighed in too: the risk of fighting Curze in his battered state, the possibility of Lorgar joining in, the consequences for his legion if he died



> If you did read my post, you would see I outlined from several books that Corax is most likely just a very proud if not hubristic being, who is overestimating himself and underestimating.,


We don't know enough about him to claim that he's hubristic...that's your opinion because you have a thing for Curze. It's all quite ambiguous. 

Who's to say that Corax isn't one of the best fighters among the primarchs. You think he's deluding himself. Maybe he's simply that good.


----------



## Lux

Well I do agree with the fact that we simply "just do not know" if he was deluded, hubristic, or simply "just that good". As of right now it is simply purely his own word judging himself, and that is not objective at all.


----------



## Lux

Klaivex said:


> He was confidant he could kill Nighthaunter not because he was the best fighter but or even a better fighter but because Curze was prone to emotional blindness despite being a sporadic genius.
> 
> Corax's whole modus operandi is exploiting weak points. Curze has one of the biggest, if not the biggest weakness of all the primarchs in that he kind of looses himself to his own deranged mind.
> 
> And confidant in his own ability? In the paragraph after the one you are mentioning he says he resigned himself to die to Angron. He also as you said, said MAY die. He thought he would beat Curze but he didn't know if he would come out alive from that fight. He knew his limitations quite well.


That is entirely the point I am pushing...Corax in my view is hubristic, deluded even in his own pride. After being battered by Lorgar, he truly believed he would be able to kill the Night Haunter + Lorgar and at worse die in the process of doing so. He didn't even weigh the possibility of being killed by the Night Haunter and or plus Lorgar, that is how over confident he was. 

If you honestly believe Corax is that superior to the Lion in combat, of which the Lion failed to kill the Night Haunter even though the Lion had a massive advantage due to his sword being rammed into the Night Haunter's spine...than I question your degree of bias. Additionally not only did the Lion fail to kill the Night Haunter when he had a massive advantage via severing the Night Haunters spine, he ended up nearly dying by being near strangled to death by the Night Haunter.

State as much as you want that ADB claims it could have gone either way, I as well as numerous others on many other boards interpret it that the Lion was clearly losing that fight and likely would have been killed, Curze on the other hand? Survived a four foot sword being rammed into his spine and than proceeded to display "unnatural strength and power, brimming with an unholy light in his eyes".

Really I go by whats on panel, rather than by what the author states it was meant to portray, in an attempt to do damage control over the fandoms and not alienate one fandom over another.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> As of right now it is simply purely his own word judging himself, and that is not objective at all.


"His own word" isn't necessarily inaccurate.

Corax's own word is only "not objective" in the sense that he's judging his own ability. 

Corax has always struck me as a pragmatist. I don't think he's one to delude himself and make excuses. The reason he gives for fleeing (revulsion for Curze) might very well be an honest admission to himself. It could also be viewed as a tactical withdrawal. He doesn't give that reason later on, but I'm sure at the time, he's aware of his disadvantages and his legion's precarious position


----------



## Chompy Bits

Just one thing I'd like to mention. The one comment about Corax's martial ability was he knew he _was viewed_ as one of the best fighters. This means that others viewed him as such, not just himself. Also, he knew Angron would likely butcher him and that he only had the smallest of chances of defeating Angron. So he is definitely perfectly willing to acknowledge when he knows someone is better than him.

The thing is, I think, Lux, that you're trivialising the possible repercussions of the fight between Lorgar, Curze and Corax. It wasn't a simple situation of winning or losing and dying. If he hadn't withdrawn and helped his legion retreat it could very well have resulted in their total annihilation. As it is, only a fraction of the RG's original strength escaped. As Monty mentioned, Corax is a pragmatist. He'd rather lose the battle and survive and go on to win the war, as opposed to sacrificing it all in an act of egotism. 

Also Lux, I don't mean to be rude, but thinking that you know better than the writer of the actual story, _Savage Weapons_, smacks of arrogance. You say there's a load of people that think Curze would have one? Well, there's a load of people who stand by the fact that it was a tie. And seeing as that view is supported by the author himself, I'd place more value there.


----------



## Lux

Chompy Bits said:


> Just one thing I'd like to mention. The one comment about Corax's martial ability was he knew he _was viewed_ as one of the best fighters. This means that others viewed him as such, not just himself. Also, he knew Angron would likely butcher him and that he only had the smallest of chances of defeating Angron. So he is definitely perfectly willing to acknowledge when he knows someone is better than him.
> 
> The thing is, I think, Lux, that you're trivialising the possible repercussions of the fight between Lorgar, Curze and Corax. It wasn't a simple situation of winning or losing and dying. If he hadn't withdrawn and helped his legion retreat it could very well have resulted in their total annihilation. As it is, only a fraction of the RG's original strength escaped. As Monty mentioned, Corax is a pragmatist. He'd rather lose the battle and survive and go on to win the war, as opposed to sacrificing it all in an act of egotism.
> 
> Also Lux, I don't mean to be rude, but thinking that you know better than the writer of the actual story, _Savage Weapons_, smacks of arrogance. You say there's a load of people that think Curze would have one? Well, there's a load of people who stand by the fact that it was a tie. And seeing as that view is supported by the author himself, I'd place more value there.


I think you are missing the point here, you state others view Corax as one of the best fighters? Yet no where, in any piece of fluff ever in the history of Warhammer 40k has this ever been stated, not in any codex nor in any white dwarf articles...ever. The only in fluff reference to Corax martial ability in combat is from his own mouth, and that is not objective at all seeing as he truly believed he could have killed both the Night Haunted and Lorgar and potentially Survived the encounter. Any primarch that believes they could defeat another primarch who is fresh and unharmed, while they are winded and damaged, and potentially have to deal with a third primarch also fighting against them (lorgar) is truly just delusional. 

Curze who actually has shown his skill, durability in combat against the Lion displayed immense strength, speed and endurance, to the point where it overpowered raw skill, footing, refined martial ability. For you to tell me Corax word is accurate, is just in my eyes bias in the same sense as my analysis of Corax is me being bias towards Curze.

Ultimately once a book is released to the public, the author loses all control over how the work is interpreted. The masses decide what reality the literature is, the author does not once it is released. They may attempt to shape and state what they meant the literature to mean in its original conveyance, but ultimately written work is always interpreted by the masses not by the author.

That goes for any piece of literature released, the authors word means very little in the end once the piece of writing itself has gone out for review, and in this case the masses and public are the reviewers.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Chompy Bits said:


> thinking that you know better than the writer of the actual story, _Savage Weapons_, smacks of arrogance. You say there's a load of people that think Curze would have one? Well, there's a load of people who stand by the fact that it was a tie. And seeing as that view is supported by the author himself, I'd place more value there.


I actually think that the text itself, without further clarification from the authour, strongly suggests that the Lion is at Curze's mercy as he's being strangled. 

Either that or the text itself is amenable to either interpration. If ADB had come out and said "yeah, the Lion is totally fu**ed when Curze is strangling him", people would've accepted that without question. 

To me, there's no textual hint that the Lion could've saved himself from being strangled to death. However, the authour's word controls and ADB says "it's a tie".



Lux said:


> The only in fluff reference to Corax martial ability in combat is from his own mouth, and that is not objective at all seeing as he truly believed he could have killed both the Night Haunted and Lorgar and potentially Survived the encounter. Any primarch that believes they could defeat another primarch who is fresh and unharmed, while they are winded and damaged, and potentially have to deal with a third primarch also fighting against them (lorgar) is truly just delusional.


It's not impossible for a primarch to be an accurate judge of his own ability...

Maybe Corax is good enough to kill a fresh Curze and a wounded Lorgar (he acknowledges the possibility that he'd probably die in the process) 

Also, he fully acknowledges that his chances of beating Angron are almost zero



> Curze who actually has shown his skill, durability in combat against the Lion displayed immense strength, speed and endurance, to the point where it overpowered raw skill, footing, refined martial ability.


Actually, my view of the fight is that the Lion's downfall is his tremendous arrogance toward Curze. He talks a lot of smack and he doesn't even go for a fatal first blow. Quite obviously, Curze is beneath him in his view. 

This gave Curze an opening to throw himself at the Lion and grapple. 

If the Lion had gone for a quick kill, Curze would've been outmatched IMO. There difference in skill is rather huge. 

Corax on the other hand doesn't seem to be as arrogant as the Lion.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> I think you are missing the point here, you state others view Corax as one of the best fighters? Yet no where, in any piece of fluff ever in the history of Warhammer 40k has this ever been stated, not in any codex nor in any white dwarf articles...ever. The only in fluff reference to Corax martial ability in combat is from his own mouth, and that is not objective at all seeing as he truly believed he could have killed both the Night Haunted and Lorgar and potentially Survived the encounter. Any primarch that believes they could defeat another primarch who is fresh and unharmed, while they are winded and damaged, and potentially have to deal with a third primarch also fighting against them (lorgar) is truly just delusional.


I didn't state it. It's written in _Deliverance Lost_. Why would Corax mention that others viewed him as one of the best fighters if it never happened?

And I disagree with you about him being delusional. We don't know how that fight would have panned out. Who's to say Corax couldn't have killed them both? We don't know. There's no precedence for one primarch fighting two others, so we really have no idea what would have happened. 



Lux said:


> Curze who actually has shown his skill, durability in combat against the Lion displayed immense strength, speed and endurance, to the point where it overpowered raw skill, footing, refined martial ability. For you to tell me Corax word is accurate, is just in my eyes bias in the same sense as my analysis of Corax is me being bias towards Curze.


Again, it's not simply his own word. As I've said, he notes that _others_ have acknowledged him as one of the best fighters. It isn't just his own opinion. And, as far as I know, the Lion isn't noted as being among the best fighters by anyone. Even with his weapon of choice, a sword, it's acknowledged that both Fulgrim and the Khan were the best. The only comment that makes any reference to his ability is him being a good duelist. And seeing as Curze decided to go no holds barred on his ass, it negated any personal advantage in skill he might have had.



Lux said:


> Ultimately once a book is released to the public, the author loses all control over how the work is interpreted. The masses decide what reality the literature is, the author does not once it is released. They may attempt to shape and state what they meant the literature to mean in its original conveyance, but ultimately written work is always interpreted by the masses not by the author.
> 
> That goes for any piece of literature released, the authors word means very little in the end once the piece of writing itself has gone out for review, and in this case the masses and public are the reviewers.


Ah, so you're a follower of the linguistic turn I see. Now the reason for your previous threads make a lot more sense. Well, I'm not and I still believe that what the author says matters a great deal.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Just thought I'd add, isn't it stated somewhere that Corax and Horus used to fight mock duels in training and they usually fought to a draw or something?


----------



## Lux

Words_of_Truth said:


> Just thought I'd add, isn't it stated somewhere that Corax and Horus used to fight mock duels in training and they usually fought to a draw or something?


You may be referencing to a very old White Dwarf article, of which it states Horus would train each primarch in combat and thus would duel each of them. Of all the primarchs only three defeated him of which it names two of them as Lemun Russ, and Sanguinius.

The Third was not Corax.

Additionally it also states of all the primarchs the only one he did not train in combat was Curze, nor did he ever duel Curze. Why? I don't know...maybe it was too far into the Crusade by that point, or he was too distant.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Lux said:


> You may be referencing to a very old White Dwarf article, of which it states Horus would train each primarch in combat and thus would duel each of them. Of all the primarchs only three defeated him of which it names two of them as Lemun Russ, and Sanguinius.
> 
> The Third was not Corax.
> 
> Additionally it also states of all the primarchs the only one he did not train in combat was Curze, nor did he ever duel Curze. Why? I don't know...maybe it was too far into the Crusade by that point, or he was too distant.


I'n not saying Corax beat him, just they duelled and they ended in a draw or something, nevermind I'm sure I'll find what I read somewhere, I know it's not the "three who defeated him" part though.


----------



## theurge33

theurge33 said:


> Deliverence Lost pg 21 "Corax knew himself numbered amongst the best fighters in the service of the emporer, and he had never considered Curze his equal. Curze was ill disciplined, capable of sporadic genius but equally prone to moments of emotional blindness, moments a warrior like Corax could exploit with deadly effect."
> 
> 
> DL pg 22 "He should have stayed and fought, should have slain the Night Haunter and killed pathetic Lorgar of the Word Bearers straight after, denying the rebels two of their commanders, even though it might have cost him his life."
> 
> 
> DL pg 39 "Physically, Horus and Corax had proven and equal match for each other in thei mock duels and wrestling bouts."
> 
> And in Raven's flight he speaks of only Horus, Angron and maybe Sanguinius as possibly being greater than him in combat.
> 
> These bits always gave me the sense the Corax was one of the top tier fighters, especially how he says he _should have_ slain Curze implying that he could have. Therefore I would say Corax in a straight up contest.


I re-quoted from earlier in the chain. Coming from the author, the above has to be strongly considered when evaluating this matchup. Yes, it is one sided from Corax's view, but can't be dismissed. My personal opinion would be that Corax would be Night Haunter in a one on one fight given above, but most likely not to the degree of above (Curze hada nice display against the Lion) and also not in the situation he was in( he was wounded and had just fought another primarch).

I also hold littel stock in the point that Curze "lifted Corax's arm (or body, whichever) effortlessly." Of course he could! These primarchs flip tanks...it wasn't like they had some fresh mercy duel that measured strength. It the weight of an arm...and caught Corax off guard.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Aha there it is:

Deliverance Lost Page 22: Physically, Horus and Corax had proven an equal match for each other in their mock duels and wrestling bouts.


----------



## joebauerek

Just to sure up Corax's supposed skill... in The First Heretic when Lorgar runs to engage Corax, Kor Phaeron says "He'll kill you!" (The First Heretic, pp447) even though Lorgar wasn't the best fighter of the primarch he was still way above an average marine, which at least implicates that it was common knowlegde of Corax's fighting skills.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Ah, there's the quote I was looking for to:


> Corax knew himself numbered amongst the best fighters in the service of the Emperor


Note, it says _knew himself numbered_. Not that _he_ numbered himself among the best. Which indicates that it is an external rating of his abilities and not an internal one.


----------



## Lux

Chompy Bits said:


> Ah, there's the quote I was looking for to:
> 
> 
> Note, it says _knew himself numbered_. Not that _he_ numbered himself among the best. Which indicates that it is an external rating of his abilities and not an internal one.


No, it is not an external perception. It reads "Knew himself numbered", it plainly states that he (corax) knows himself numbered among the best, however it is purely in his head until stated by some one else.

As I said before, Corax is delusional, hubristic, and perceives himself as one of the best it is little to no wonder he would also believe he is seen as one of the best in the eyes of the others.

Yet once again no where in the fluff has anyone stated to see him this way, only his own perception sees himself this way.


----------



## Klaivex

joebauerek said:


> in The First Heretic when Lorgar runs to engage Corax, Kor Phaeron says "He'll kill you!" (The First Heretic, pp447)


I think this is a fair example of Corax's reputation. Can you imagine Corswain or Alajos shouting that at Lion when he starts fighting Curze? 

Betting against your own primarch.... I don't think there would be any chance of that without ample evidence.


----------



## Lux

Klaivex said:


> I think this is a fair example of Corax's reputation. Can you imagine Corswain or Alajos shouting that at Lion when he starts fighting Curze?
> 
> Betting against your own primarch.... I don't think there would be any chance of that without ample evidence.


Every primarch, of every legion, including the Custodes saw Lorgar as weak and mocked him openly.

It is little to no wonder that one of his own soldiers who cares for him would tell him realistically to retreat, it could have been the Khan, or the Lion, or any primarch really and I am quite confident he would have said the same to Lorgar, who at that point had not yet accepted his own power.


----------



## Klaivex

> Corax knew himself numbered amongst the best fighters in the service of the emporer, and he had never considered Curze his equal.


At the time he said this there were only 9 loyal primarchs. There were also billions of other Imperial subjects in service to the emperor....

Corax is in the top 9 of those. 

Even if he was the weakest of the loyalists this statement would still be true. 9th place is pretty damn good when the total number of participants is billions. That being said i highly doubt he was the weakest.

Still that is not hubris nor is it delusional. It is clear and simple fact.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> As I said before, Corax is delusional, hubristic, and perceives himself as one of the best it is little to no wonder he would also believe he is seen as one of the best in the eyes of the others.
> 
> Yet once again no where in the fluff has anyone stated to see him this way, only his own perception sees himself this way.


1) He doesn't see himself as the best, only one of the best. He admits that Angron would murder him 

2) Nowhere in the fluff is it implied that Corax is "delusional". He simply admits that he found Curze so repulsive and disturbing that he chose to distance himself from Curze instead of facing him. I suppose you could argue that he's simply making excuses for himself, but your argument is no more convincing than the argument that Corax is honestly recalling the reason for his flight.

Finally, so what if Curze has the advantage of physical strength over Corax (a debatable assertion as Corax is to some extent battle-worn and Curze is entirely fresh and possibly concealing the effort he's exerting)? That doesn't mean Curze is "better" than Corax. Corax probably has a lot of advantages in other areas over Curze.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> No, it is not an external perception. It reads "Knew himself numbered", it plainly states that he (corax) knows himself numbered among the best, however it is purely in his head until stated by some one else.


Well, I guess language is interpreted differently where you and I come from, because in all my experience if someone mentions themselves numbered as, as opposed to numbering themselves as (i.e. they rate themselves there), it isn't by themselves but by someone else. 

And then there's also the comment about being a match for Horus during their sparring, a primarch who by almost all accounts was one of the best fighters. Now mock duels and sparring aren't a real fight by any means, but it can give you a general estimation of someone's abilities, which would under these circumstances put Corax within the higher tiers of primarch fighters.



Lux said:


> As I said before, Corax is delusional, hubristic, and perceives himself as one of the best it is little to no wonder he would also believe he is seen as one of the best in the eyes of the others.
> 
> Yet once again no where in the fluff has anyone stated to see him this way, only his own perception sees himself this way.


You see this is the problem I have with your posts. Even though there is considerable evidence to support the claim that Corax is one of the best fighters you adamantly deny it stating there's no concrete proof or statements detailing this, yet you continue to go on about how hubristic and delusional he is when there has never been any evidence to support these claims.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I dunno, I think you can read a lot into the fact Lorgar is told Corax _will_ kill him as opposed to _might_ kill him. Lorgar's opinion of Corax is one of surprise to, since before he considered Corax as a calm and composed person but now he was wild and angry. 

I think Corax in general is a good fighter, we didn't know anything about his prowess before, so it really comes down to the small interactions we have and I don't get the impression Corax is delusional at all.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't getting the impression Corax is delusional at all.


Well, that's because his "evidence" that Corax is delusional is tenuous at best. It's a bit ironic as Lux himself displays more delusional behaviour than Corax ever does. 

Corax's personality is calm and composed 
He matches Horus in wrestling and sparring
He's willing to admit when he's outclassed i.e. Angron 
His assessment of his own abilities don't seem to be delusional in light of the above

...and please remember that *Corax isn't afraid of death. At one point, he resigns himselt to death in combat against Angron. If he's willing to meet death in combat against Angron, why would he be afraid to meet death in combat against Curze?*Corax isn't afraid of being killed by Curze. Corax lets his revulsion get the better of him. 

In h2h, I see him easily being a match for Curze, regardless of whether Curze is physically stronger...strength is only one factor affecting the outcome of a fight


----------



## Lux

Double Post


----------



## Lux

MontytheMighty said:


> Well, that's because his "evidence" that Corax is delusional is tenuous at best. It's a bit ironic as Lux himself displays more delusional behaviour than Corax ever does.
> 
> Corax's personality is calm and composed
> He matches Horus in wrestling and sparring
> He's willing to admit when he's outclassed i.e. Angron
> His assessment of his own abilities don't seem to be delusional in light of the above
> 
> ...and please remember that *Corax isn't afraid of death. At one point, he resigns himselt to death in combat against Angron. If he's willing to meet death in combat against Angron, why would he be afraid to meet death in combat against Curze?*Corax isn't afraid of being killed by Curze. Corax lets his revulsion get the better of him.
> 
> In h2h, I see him easily being a match for Curze, regardless of whether Curze is physically stronger...strength is only one factor affecting the outcome of a fight


The White dwarf article never mentioned Corax as being of the three to beat Horus in their training duels. So where are you deriving this from?

Corax had a skewed perception of what primarchs were superior, every primarch did. In Betrayer Lorgar states that he secretrly wishes he will meet Corax on the battlefield again, as this time things would turn out vastly different and the Raven would meet his end. 

Dorn believed he was superior in combat to Horus, the point is that a primarchs own opinion of who they are superior and inferior to is inaccurate.


----------



## joebauerek

Lux said:


> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?
> 
> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?
> 
> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.
> 
> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?
> 
> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?
> 
> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?
> 
> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?
> 
> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?
> 
> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


1. Not enough information so tie.

2. I'd personally give the edge to the NL's. I just think in large open battles brute force and sheer terrir will eventually payout. This is not saying that the RG will do badly but this is just personal opinion.

3. This is a close one. Both will excel but id give it to the RG. Mainly because NL rely on exposing themselves after to maximum effect whilst the RG will be in and out. Still both will do excellently but i would give the edge to the RG.

4. Neither will be doing either. Offensive and defensive require battle lines.... with RG and NL there will not be any so... yeah....

5. I recon it will be incredibly long with neither side ever truly winning... battles may be won.... but not one big enough to officially win.... so eventually there will be no strategic importance so both sides will leave..... or if a victory is achieved it will be so pyrrhic it could be classed as a defeat.

6. Also very close.... but id say RG again... I dunno why i suppose there just being portrayed as more organised.... whilst NL can just be monsters i think the team thinking of RG will just let them win.... just being a key word and probably be a 55/45 split

7. I couldnt really say... but at an educated guess id say Kurze... whilst Corax is a master of stealth and infiltration Kurze is a predator who will always get his target.

8. Id say a tie. Corax has the skill and ability whilst Kurze is a beast. Its like comparing a million tiny cuts to being decapitated..... both are deadly and will kill its just different method. So for me its 50/50

9. I'd personally give this to Corax from what ive read Kurze's mentality just seams to be throw men at the problem (i know this goes with terror tactics) but Corax just seems more flexible and seems to be more of a strategist from what ive read.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> The White dwarf article never mentioned Corax as being of the three to beat Horus in their training duels. So where are you deriving this from?


Did I make this claim? Where? 



> Dorn believed he was superior in combat to Horus, the point is that a primarchs own opinion of who they are superior and inferior to is inaccurate.


...or maybe some primarchs are more honest to themselves than others, depending on personality

By the way, which source has Dorn believing he'd beat Horus? 

I see Corax as having a more realistic perception of himself than Dorn. I mean, Dorn thinks the primarchs are part of this wonderful brotherhood (when clearly some of them hate each other), he refuses to believe Horus has turned traitor and almost kills the messenger who brings him the news. He confronts Curze for using tactics that don't conform to his values, likely yelling into Curze's face before Night Haunter snaps and punches him in the face. Dorn has a big ego and can be rather hot-headed. 

His personality type seems to be totally different from Corax's. I wouldn't say "because Dorn overestimates himself, Corax does too"


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lux said:


> Dorn believed he was superior in combat to Horus


Did he? Where are you pulling that from?


----------



## Phoebus

Lux said:


> 1. Which do you think will fare better in space battle, ship tp ship?


I have to go with the Raven Guard. Fact of the matter is, while neither Legion is implied to be particularly specialized in space warfare, the Night Lords just don't show the same degree of cohesion and loyalty toward one another that the XIX Legion do. I think it's telling that Sevatar's most successful - and most unanimously agreed on - plan involved the rest of the Legion _basically abandoning him to face the Dark Angels alone._



> 2. Which legion do you think will fare better in large scale ground wars?


I might have to go with the Night Lords on this one. I get the impression that the Raven Guard are more specialized - both in terms of mission set and equipment. The VIII Legion may be more well-rounded and thus tactically and strategically more flexible because of this.



> 3. Which legion will fare better in small scale fights? Such as assassinations, infiltration, sabotage.


The Raven Guard. The Night Lords are certainly _very good_ at this, but this is the Raven Guard's _forte._ Where the Night Lords rely on fear and terror to get this sort of thing done, the Raven Guard need no such theatrics. Stealth and silence are their by-words.



> 4. Which legion will be on the offensive and defensive primarily?


I don't think this question gets a clear-cut answer. I think both Legions would engage in a great deal of probing actions, looking for the surgical strike against strategic assets and targets.



> 5. How do you see the war panning out? Will it be short, or will one or both of the legions drag it on for decades to pick off the other slowly, cut off their supply lines? And if so which do you think will win?


It's going to be a dragged out fight. The Raven Guard had to fight a conventional battle on Isstvan V because the situation (and, to put everything on the table, Ferrus Manus) demanded it.



> 6. In small squad vs squad scenarios which willwin?


It's situation dependant, really.



> 7. And finally, corax vs night haunter, whcih do you think is better at assassination? And which is better and more likely to survive an assassination by the other?


Again, situation dependant. Curze doesn't suffer from the weaknesses/low moral fibre of his minions. He's a true believer, a survivor, and a genius. He's not going to go about this stupidly.



> 8. Corax vs konrad straight up brawl with one another, who wins?


Situation dependant. I'm leaning toward Konrad Curze, though. That's not to say I'm dismissing Corax out of hand...



> 9. Which primarch is the better general in tactical acumen and large scale acumen (forgot name).


I'm not sure that we have seen enough to make a fair assessment on this count. From Curze's side, that is. We know the Lion was brilliant, and Curze was able to keep him occupied in a long-term stalemate, which means that the Haunter is definitely no dummy. That having been said, outright avoidance is not necessarily the hallmark of genius, and the amount of space a sub-sector contains is always going to exceed the capability of a fleet to cover it (without breaking down into elements so small that they would be susceptible to ambush by a larger force).

Corax seems to be a solid commander, but this is after he's reduced to a tiny Legion and is operating purely on his strengths. Would his Legion be as effective using only those tactics at full strength? That remains to be seen. It also remains to be seen, though, if the Raven Guard's skill at conventional war suffered because of their focus on stealth. It could very well be that they didn't, and that they were always a higher-caliber Legion because of this.

Cheers,
P.

EDIT: that's what I get for not paying attention to the thread start date... I answered three year-old questions. Sigh.


----------



## Lux

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Did he? Where are you pulling that from?


In the Lightening Tower


----------



## Lux

Phoebus said:


> I have to go with the Raven Guard. Fact of the matter is, while neither Legion is implied to be particularly specialized in space warfare, the Night Lords just don't show the same degree of cohesion and loyalty toward one another that the XIX Legion do. I think it's telling that Sevatar's most successful - and most unanimously agreed on - plan involved the rest of the Legion _basically abandoning him to face the Dark Angels alone._
> 
> 
> I might have to go with the Night Lords on this one. I get the impression that the Raven Guard are more specialized - both in terms of mission set and equipment. The VIII Legion may be more well-rounded and thus tactically and strategically more flexible because of this.
> 
> 
> The Raven Guard. The Night Lords are certainly _very good_ at this, but this is the Raven Guard's _forte._ Where the Night Lords rely on fear and terror to get this sort of thing done, the Raven Guard need no such theatrics. Stealth and silence are their by-words.
> 
> 
> I don't think this question gets a clear-cut answer. I think both Legions would engage in a great deal of probing actions, looking for the surgical strike against strategic assets and targets.
> 
> 
> It's going to be a dragged out fight. The Raven Guard had to fight a conventional battle on Isstvan V because the situation (and, to put everything on the table, Ferrus Manus) demanded it.
> 
> 
> It's situation dependant, really.
> 
> 
> Again, situation dependant. Curze doesn't suffer from the weaknesses/low moral fibre of his minions. He's a true believer, a survivor, and a genius. He's not going to go about this stupidly.
> 
> 
> Situation dependant. I'm leaning toward Konrad Curze, though. That's not to say I'm dismissing Corax out of hand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that we have seen enough to make a fair assessment on this count. From Curze's side, that is. We know the Lion was brilliant, and Curze was able to keep him occupied in a long-term stalemate, which means that the Haunter is definitely no dummy. That having been said, outright avoidance is not necessarily the hallmark of genius, and the amount of space a sub-sector contains is always going to exceed the capability of a fleet to cover it (without breaking down into elements so small that they would be susceptible to ambush by a larger force).
> 
> Corax seems to be a solid commander, but this is after he's reduced to a tiny Legion and is operating purely on his strengths. Would his Legion be as effective using only those tactics at full strength? That remains to be seen. It also remains to be seen, though, if the Raven Guard's skill at conventional war suffered because of their focus on stealth. It could very well be that they didn't, and that they were always a higher-caliber Legion because of this.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.
> 
> EDIT: that's what I get for not paying attention to the thread start date... I answered three year-old questions. Sigh.


I found your reply to be one of the most informative, and pleasant to intake of all the replies I have read thus far. 

Good job! =)


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lux said:


> In the Lightening Tower


Could you provide the quote please, thanks


----------



## hailene

MontytheMighty said:


> Could you provide the quote please, thanks


I think Lux misread the narration. I'll post the important stuff. This is from Dorn's PoV:

"Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war? Martial prowess was hardly the point. Dorn had never feared an adversary in his life because of how strong he was or how hard he fought. Combat was only ever a test. What mattered, what engendered fear, was why an adversary fought. What made him fight. Oh, now we have it. Now the truth dawns. He felt the hairs on his skin rise. I’m not afraid of Horus. I’m afraid of finding out why he has turned against us."

I think Lux took Dorn not fearing Horus as Dorn being better than Horus. That's not the case since Dorn said that regardless of how powerful or intelligent his foe was, he would never fear them simply because they were powerful or intelligent.


----------



## Phoebus

Thanks for the kind words, Lux.


----------



## cragnes417

I always imagine it would lead to a waiting game to see who just slip up from hiding from the other >.>


----------



## TinBane

This thread sure has dragged on!

Some of the posts are pretty ignorant with regard to RG, or Night Lords, and some seem to miss some of the fluff changes that have occurred in 40k.

In older fluff, marines are definitely effected by fear. Marines teleporting aboard Horus' flagship were broken mentally by the experience of being in a vessel so changed. If you read 2nd ed era fluff, marines were impaired fighting daemons out of fear, and in 3rd, and 4th ed fear causing units would force marine units to fall back much more often (ie, fear impacted on their decision whether to hold ground or not). It has an effect. 

Night Lords are not just practiced in the arts of fear, or psychological warfare (just as raven guard aren't only practiced in the arts of guerrilla warfare). Guerilla warfare is also far less decisive in a battle of astartes.

Given the synergy between guerilla warfare, stealth and assasination, I'm going to give the nod to Ravenguard on those areas. While the night lords are not as expert in those areas, I'm going to talk about what I see as their advantages.

Reading the heresy books, one thing is interesting. Aside from the Space Wolves, every other chapter (including the lunar wolves) has protagonists considering the issue of astartes vs astartes and how freaking hard that would be to work out. All of them, every single legion, used tactics that would fail against other astartes opponents. Whether it's night lords, white scars, dark angels, lunar wolves, or raven guard, all their normal parameters of battle would be off.

If you read all the books involving night lords, you'll notice that they hate a fair fight. Their entire hierarchy is infused with the desire to get cheap shots in whenever possible. Whether it's cheating in a blade-duel by using a plasma pistol, or going feral on Rogal Dorn when he doesn't expect it.

They don't just terrorise the population of a planet, they shut down their infrastructure, they broadcast audio and visual noise, diatribes, and demoralising torture. They are not simply masters of fear, in many of the Night Lords books it's made abundantly clear that they are originally masters of psychology, and that fear is their dirty addiction. It's not by any means the extent of their manipulation. Would it effect the Raven Guard? I think not.

That said, who has the most to lose? The Night Lords have barely any infastructure on Nostromo, in fact, it's destruction is more hurtful to the Imperium, because it's harder and more expensive to mine adamantium from the detritus of it's break-up than from a functioning livable planet. The Night Haunter doesn't care about Nostromo, and destroying it doesn't effect his combat strength.

In contrast, Corax has well established planets with more traditional military structure. And that's a strength, not having planet-based assets is a big risk to the Night Lords. But in this case, it's leverage. And I'd expect that while Corax is out looking for Curze, curze would be lining up a life-eater attack on Corax's homeworld and base of operations.

Guerilla warfare, is fantastic when you drop marines on a planet and disrupt traditional infastructure. It doesn't work against a fleet-borne army of murderers. Guerilla warfare relies on access to supplies, and the tied down nature of your enemy. What's Corax going to do, keep his entire fleet in orbit in case the night lords attack there?

The raven guard simply has more to lose, and by having more to lose, they need to make hard decisions. Hard decisions that the Night Haunter has proven he can make. In terms of all out war between them, I predict that while the Night Haunter might never bring Corax to battle (and I think he'd win, he's got the better track record) sucessfully, he'd bleed the legion and you'd end up with stronger night lords and weaker raven guard going into the heresy. 

At the end of the day, I don't think the Night Haunter, OR Corax would allow themselves to fight a duel they'd lose. If I went fully fan-boy on the night lords, I'd give them the edge in fleet battles, simply based on their post-heresy fleet based fluff, and the fact they have functioning dreadclaws.


EDIT: So just to sum it up, pre-heresy the raven guard had better fixed assets. In a fight with the night lords, I think that is their weakness. It's hard to use guerilla tactics, assasination, or stealth against a fleet based opponent. And in a fleet battle, having vulnerable but important assets would be a BIG handicap. It means always setting aside part of your force as a picket. The night lord can roll in one big pack of strike-cruisers and battle-barges. The night lords have been known to coast in for two weeks on minimal power to avoid detection, not sure if that would work against a planetary strongpoint.


----------

