# Asdrubael Vect's Power



## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

How would anyone stand up to this guy? In the codex fluff he drops a battle ship on one of his enemies, destroyed a whole region of Commoragh with the essence of a black hole, seals off sections of the webway, dupes the Salamanders into doing killing his enemies for him and worst of all sleeps with his enemies daughters:shok:.

How could anyone defend themselves from something like that? What if he drops a battleship with a bunch of black holes on Terra while he is off bedding the sisters of silence? I feel like with technology like that DE should be much more of a threat than just random pirate raids.

What say you about this?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

His power does seem to be waning though. By the looks of it Lady Malys and whatever demon shares her soul might be about to usurp his position, especially if Vect is, as the codex specualtes, getting bored with it all.

As to the DE tech, it's miles ahead of Imperial tech alright, but they don't really have the numbers required to make that superiority count.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> His power does seem to be waning though. By the looks of it Lady Malys and whatever demon shares her soul might be about to usurp his position, especially if Vect is, as the codex specualtes, getting bored with it all.
> 
> As to the DE tech, it's miles ahead of Imperial tech alright, but they don't really have the numbers required to make that superiority count.


If he gets bored maybe he just needs to do something drastic to make DE more of a main part of the story instead of a supporting character. You hear me GW?

If their weapons are so good why do they have one AP 1 weapon? ha ha. Sure the harlequins give them 2 but that doesn't really count.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Most of Vects power is due to his Crazy Preparedness and his home-turf advantage. He would be unable to perpetrate this kind of thing on some one else`s turf (like Terra) and is largely unable to bring his schemes and tech to bear on the outside world (due primarily to being distracted by internal scheming).

DE tech is superior to all else in the galaxy, except Necrons, and this is the only reason they pose a threat to the outside world. Due to their tech advantage the DE are able to reliably get what they want and maintain their numbers and way of life. The other races are largely unable to respond and so the DE can prey at their leisure. There is no reason for the DE to launch bigger attacks. It would simply move them up the food chain in the eyes of others, better they remain out of sight and out of mind.



> If their weapons are so good why do they have one AP 1 weapon? ha ha.


Because an AP 1 weapon achieves very little that an AP 2 gun doesn't? Because they have easy access to fast, cheap and effective anti-tank? Because enemy armour is slow, cumbersome and can't shoot what it can't see? Because the Imperium only has one AP 1 weapon? Because their tech specializes in other areas (anti-infantry)?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> There is no reason for the DE to launch bigger attacks. It would simply move them up the food chain in the eyes of others, better they remain out of sight and out of mind.


They are the most arrogant, greedy, indulgent race in the galaxy. I think in their eyes they are the top of the food chain already and why wouldn't they want to enslave the all the other "inferior" races. Imagine what a kick the Haemonculi would get torturing the emperor and then turning him into the most crazy Grotesque ever. Not only would they absorb the pain and suffering of one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy but imagine the anguish of the imperial forces and marines knowing that their daddy is gone and probably getting touched in his no no area by a pair of scissor hands. It would be the biggest feast for the DE ever.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Because an AP 1 weapon achieves very little that an AP 2 gun doesn't? Because they have easy access to fast, cheap and effective anti-tank? Because enemy armour is slow, cumbersome and can't shoot what it can't see? Because the Imperium only has one AP 1 weapon? Because their tech specializes in other areas (anti-infantry)?


In game terms it does on the Damage chart.

The Imperium has more than one AP 1 weapon?
Bastion breacher shell
Melta gun
Multi Melta
Melta cannon
blood strike missile
Infirnus pistole
Deathstrike missile


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

The dark elder are all about causing pain and suffering to save themselves, the entire Codex and fluff is based on the idea of "high-tech crazy space pirates" which i think they pull off really well. They cannot have large AP1 or STR 10 weapons because they are a fast raider force, they don't stand & fight they just get in and out with slaves & candy bars.

Vect is a mastermind, give him some time to plan & prepare his home turf and he'll be pretty much unstoppable, but the rest of the galaxy isn't his home turf, the Imperial fleet would do some heavy damage the Dark elder left the Webway in en-masse, so they keep things small scale. Dark elder are the insurgents (in style not training or pointy ears) and the imperium is the coalition to put things into perspective.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I tell you how you stop vect its called a sniper in the right place at the right time with a bit of inside info. Seriously unlike a DP, or a Norn queen his awesomeness comes from being savvy, and cut throat, hence the reason why he rarely goes out these days on dangerous tasks himself. Seriously even he knows slipping up would end with a nice round hole where his head was, and he knows it. 

So how do you stop him? You don't you just kill his lackeys, and let vVct make a example of them for failing.

He is far to pragmatic to make huge waves anymore for anyone, but his own people, who realistically pose the biggest threat to his survival.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm not saying they should leave Commorragh en mas and fly around the galaxy doing their thing. They should continue to pop out of the webway and kill maim and capture like usual just with targets that would give them more excitement. I mean seriously? 

"The Emperor built the throne as a means of entering the Webway. Having this fixed point of entry was meant to free humanity from its reliance on Warp-ships and astrotelepathy, since humans could simply enter the Webway and emerge wherever they chose in the galaxy. He sent armies of workers through the portal and had them construct a new short section of Webway linking to the rest of the abandoned Eldar network. Since the original Webway was built of a psychically resistant material which the humans could not replicate, the Emperor used his powers, via the Golden Throne, to protect the human-built section from the Warp." - Lexicanium

If that isn't a free pass to Terra I dunno what is? Pop out, chuck a black hole at it and disappear. Then the Emperor would know his place. I think scientist call it spaghettification ha ha. Why would the most arrogant beings in the galaxy tolerate anyone, calling himself The Emperor, live? 

Then every loyal human in the Impirum would be in pain and the DE would probably have a sexy party. It would be like a galaxy sized Orb of Despair. That could be Vect's going away present to Commorragh when he decides he is done ruling.



LukeValantine said:


> I tell you how you stop vect its called a sniper in the right place at the right time with a bit of inside info.


That would work if Vect wasn't sleeping with the snipers wife and found out about it before hand and had a squad of incubi waiting for him. Or he was wearing a shadow field or clone field. If a sniper rifle could take Vect out he would have been dead long ago.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Klaivex said:


> "The Emperor built the throne as a means of entering the Webway. Having this fixed point of entry was meant to free humanity from its reliance on Warp-ships and astrotelepathy, since humans could simply enter the Webway and emerge wherever they chose in the galaxy. He sent armies of workers through the portal and had them construct a new short section of Webway linking to the rest of the abandoned Eldar network. Since the original Webway was built of a psychically resistant material which the humans could not replicate, the Emperor used his powers, via the Golden Throne, to protect the human-built section from the Warp." - Lexicanium


What this quote doesn't tell you is why the Imperium isn't currently utilising Webway travel itself.

Magnus the Red caused a breach in the Webway allowing for the limitless hordes of Chaos to flow directly into the tunnel- part of the Emperor's power is directed at keeping the portal behind his throne to the Imperial Webway sealed against the daemons of chaos.

So, A) if the DE did decide to try and attack Terra that way they have to somehow battle their way past the countless Daemons infesting that part of the Webway, Daemons I hasten to add who can reform in the Warp and immediately re-enter the Webway.
And B) the portal to Terra is sealed by the most powerful psyker the Galaxy has ever known- trapped between an impossible to open door and your greatest enemy? Not a place any Dark Eldar wants to be.

So yeah if the Imperium or Chaos forces wants to permanently destroy a significant portion of the DE race they could somehow trick them into attacking Terra through the Webway.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Ah. I am just getting back into the game so i hadn't read about that yet. Doesn't really matter. it is just an example anyway. Doesn't have to be Terra itself. The DE have made it to fenris. Why not destroy that? Or any of the countless other planets that would be a major loss for the Imperium. I don't get why they are made out to be these arrogant sadistic creatures but kind of just let the lesser races go about their business.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The Dark Eldar live on barrowed time, if I understand my Eldar Fluff correctly. They owe their souls to Slannesh. Therefore dying has a lot more meaning to them than to any other race, except of coarse the other half of the Eldar race. 

Should they die, their souls will go screaming into Slannesh, who awaits them eagerly. The Dark Eldar do not attack en masse because they suffer higher losses because they then must encounter better, more organized resistance. No Dark Eldar wants to die killing mon-keighs and the lesser, weakling races. For what? To show a handful of them their place while Slannesh rapes you in the Wrap? 

Not the kind of fate I'd like to have.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Why not destroy that? Or any of the countless other planets that would be a major loss for the Imperium. I don't get why they are made out to be these arrogant sadistic creatures but kind of just let the lesser races go about their business.


Because ruling the entire galaxy is hard and boring. What threat do the lesser races pose? Let them have their games and their dreams of power, we know the truth. The galaxy is ours should we ever chose to claim it, so we'll play the waiting game. 



Klaivex said:


> I'm not saying they should leave Commorragh en mas and fly around the galaxy doing their thing. They should continue to pop out of the webway and kill maim and capture like usual just with targets that would give them more excitement. I mean seriously?


Fenris and other key targets are all highly defended by numerous fanatical warriors. Taking out such targets is of little value and high risk. What do the DE care of the strength of the Imperium, they can go wherever whenever they want. Its not 'fun' to fight difficult, pointless battles. What it is fun to do is laugh in the face of the Imperium's so called borders and do your own thing.



> Why would the most arrogant beings in the galaxy tolerate anyone, calling himself The Emperor, live?


Because they think its a funny joke? Not to mention the fact that he's not actually alive and they probably get a kick out of the entirety of the human race worshiping some dead guy.



> That could be Vect's going away present to Commorragh when he decides he is done ruling.


Vect will never be done ruling. That is the whole point of his existence. 



Klaivex said:


> In game terms it does on the Damage chart.


Which is why I said minimal, not non-existent.



> The Imperium has more than one AP 1 weapon?


You're right, according to your list they have three. Melta weapons, bastion shells and missiles. The entirety of the human race, across their galaxy wide empire have 3 different pieces of tech capable of AP 1. Two of which require large, slow(ish) vehicles to fire. 



Klaivex said:


> They are the most arrogant, greedy, indulgent race in the galaxy. I think in their eyes they are the top of the food chain already and why wouldn't they want to enslave the all the other "inferior" races.


Top of the food chain is good, know whats better? When no one else thinks you exist. 



> Imagine what a kick the Haemonculi would get torturing the emperor and then turning him into the most crazy Grotesque ever. Not only would they absorb the pain and suffering of one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy but imagine the anguish of the imperial forces and marines knowing that their daddy is gone and probably getting touched in his no no area by a pair of scissor hands. It would be the biggest feast for the DE ever.


The Emperor is dead, torturing him would be a waste of time. And the DE can't feed off all suffering, just that conducted near them, so pissing off the entire human race just for $hits and giggles is a REALLY bad idea.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> The Dark Eldar live on barrowed time, if I understand my Eldar Fluff correctly. They owe their souls to Slannesh. Therefore dying has a lot more meaning to them than to any other race, except of coarse the other half of the Eldar race.
> 
> Should they die, their souls will go screaming into Slannesh, who awaits them eagerly. The Dark Eldar do not attack en masse because they suffer higher losses because they then must encounter better, more organized resistance. No Dark Eldar wants to die killing mon-keighs and the lesser, weakling races. For what? To show a handful of them their place while Slannesh rapes you in the Wrap?
> 
> Not the kind of fate I'd like to have.


That part confuses me a bit too because they are getting eaten away by Slannesh and must cause pain to revitalise themselves... but if they die they can be regrown in pods by the haemonculi. Not sure how that works really.

Again I am not saying showing yourself before you attack. Still a lightning attack but with more warriors and against more important targets. DE should be into that since they don't care about each other. Its like when sardines make a bate ball. If there are 50 other fish around you, YOU are less likely to get eaten because their are 50 other options on the menu.

I agree no Dark eldar wants to die but i don't think anyone with the arrogance to CREATE A GOD gos into battle with a lesser race say "oh no... what if i die? I'mma pee my pants!"

They are probably like "Yeah! I'm gonna kill some people and rape some ladies and torture some children and make jackets out of grandmas. If I get shot Urien will put me back together."


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Mind you the lower rungs of warriors don't get the whole regrowing option so once again the bulk of their force really really doesn't want to take any unnecessary chance. (Best get drugged up first to drive away such silly fears.)


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Because ruling the entire galaxy is hard and boring. What threat do the lesser races pose? Let them have their games and their dreams of power, we know the truth. The galaxy is ours should we ever chose to claim it, so we'll play the waiting game.
> The waiting games seem like a waste of time for beings so greedy.
> 
> 
> ...


Pissing off the human race is a GREAT idea! if they get pissed enough the come to Commorragh and then you can really have some fun. And if they can't find a way to it you throw their society into discord making it so much more easy to get prisoners.


please refrain from using red, staff only - darkreever


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Mind you the lower rungs of warriors don't get the whole regrowing option so once again the bulk of their force really really doesn't want to take any unnecessary chance. (Best get drugged up first to drive away such silly fears.)


From the codex:

"Most Dark elder warriors, including each Kabal’s ruling elite will at some point enter into a terrible pact with the Haemonculi beneath the core. The pact states the Haemonculi will regenerate the warrior’s body should he die and in exchange the seeker will leave the Haemonculi a permanent portion of his soul."

So most of them will be fine and the ones who chicken out will probably just be killed by their kabalmates


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

DE = not even on the top 5 list of most powerful armies that's why they don't go to earth. Seriously even in the DE codex they talk about the need for secrecy and efficiency. They are out numbered 10000 to one by half of the other faction, and really have no want to cause a war of epic scale with anyone (Not productive). 

Seriously they would be stupid to kill the emporer, for a number of reasons. One no one noes what the consequences of finally releasing the warp trace of the emporrer would have. Secondly if they did kill the emporer countless millions of fanatical super warriors would dedicate everything to a genocidal war against the dark eldar. Something the dark eldar don't want, and don't need.

Really fan boyism aside DE are not orks, and they are not CSM, so telling your race that millions of your own will die in a war against humanity is a quick way to get a nice knife in the back, and your corpse sent to the enemy as a peace offer/trap.

I am not hating on DE, but come the hell on even with the rewrite they ain't going to invade earth. Hell even the legions of chaos can't invade earth, and at full strength they could can kill entire solar systems. Notice I didn't say enslave, or destroy, but kill!

I mean I love my army to, but your more or less saying my army is so awesome they could defeat the most powerful/heavily defended/deadly place in the god damn 40k universe!

Read the damn codex! DE priority are as follow.
Survival
Power
Suffering
See how low on the priority chart suffering is, especially when you consider 1-2 of those priorities would been in the shitter if they attacked earth. Yah good times.

Also note the DE army is not entirely comprised of Vects, meaning a regular DE will still drop to bolter fire, and raiders tend to vaporize when hit by laz cannons. So considering the numbers invading earth ain't happening. especially be DE.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> DE = not even on the top 5 list of most powerful armies that's why they don't go to earth. Seriously even in the DE codex they talk about the need for secrecy and efficiency. They are out numbered 10000 to one by half of the other faction, and really have no want to cause a war of epic scale with anyone (Not productive).
> Maybe I am misunderstanding you but what does going to earth have to do with being a powerful army?
> 
> And again I am not saying they should stop being secretive. They should not say "Hey fenris! We are going to pop out right here at this time and do this"
> ...


WHAT? :shok: ha ha. I am well aware of that. The original question was about vect but the thread has evolved a bit. I'm sure vect isn't the only one with super fun toys. Every archon probably has a few hundred aces in the hole... otherwise they wouldn't be archons for long.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Is there a Webway portal on Fenris? Because if there isn't then the DE would have to travel there by ship to set up one of their smaller versions, which would take a huge amount of time.

Remember a huge percentage of the Webway is impassable for one reason or another, they aren't the only ones to use it and if their Craftworld cousins caught on to their audacious plans then they'd more likely step in to stop it.
The Imperium isn't known for bothering to differentiate between the various Eldar factions and the Craftworlds and Exodites are a lot easier to find when it comes to taking vengeance...


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Is there a Webway portal on Fenris? Because if there isn't then the DE would have to travel there by ship to set up one of their smaller versions, which would take a huge amount of time.
> 
> Remember a huge percentage of the Webway is impassable for one reason or another, they aren't the only ones to use it and if their Craftworld cousins caught on to their audacious plans then they'd more likely step in to stop it.
> The Imperium isn't known for bothering to differentiate between the various Eldar factions and the Craftworlds and Exodites are a lot easier to find when it comes to taking vengeance...


Oh snap. Read that wrong. They are one planet over on Mydgarden. Hats off to you! You are good! Still it would not be a stretch to have a staging ground right next door. Makes things slightly more complicated but again its just an example. I do not think the DE will ever destroy Fenris so no one has to get all captain butt hurt. I'm just saying they have the power to do stuff LIKE that so why don't they?

Edit:

Looking at it again seems they were taking them off fenris and bringing them next door so they still got there without being seen.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Klaivex said:


> Oh snap. Read that wrong. They are one planet over on Mydgarden. Hats off to you! You are good! Still it would not be a stretch to have a staging ground right next door. Makes things slightly more complicated but again its just an example. I do not think the DE will ever destroy Fenris so no one has to get all captain butt hurt. I'm just saying they have the power to do stuff LIKE that so why don't they?


Because they would destroy one planet that the Imperium found important and then be absolutely annihilated in return.

The Imperium tolerates the DE to a degree because they have more pressing wars to fight and they can afford to lose a few million citizens, but if the DE really struck the Empire hard? Well it'd be like you or me hitting a flea with a swatter and killing it only to find that the flea was on a Grizzly that you've now thoroughly pissed off.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Klaivex, please stick with another colour if your going to be to lazy to split the quotes up; red is reserved for staff use.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Klaivex, please stick with another colour if your going to be to lazy to split the quotes up; red is reserved for staff use.


Oops sorry. I was not aware of that. My apologies.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Because they would destroy one planet that the Imperium found important and then be absolutely annihilated in return.
> 
> The Imperium tolerates the DE to a degree because they have more pressing wars to fight and they can afford to lose a few million citizens, but if the DE really struck the Empire hard? Well it'd be like you or me hitting a flea with a swatter and killing it only to find that the flea was on a Grizzly that you've now thoroughly pissed off.


How would the Imperium go about navigating the webway to get to Commorragh, getting past the countless unavoidable traps that would be set for them and still be in shape enough to destroy Commorragh, the Dark eldar with their advanced Weaponry and the countless xeno mercenaries that are there fighting for their lives? I feel like the DE could close off parts of the wabway trapping every imperial ship forever. Unless i am wrong which isn't far fetched. I am no expert on this stuff. That was just my interpretation of the codex.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Klaivex said:


> How would the Imperium go about navigating the webway to get to Commorragh, getting past the countless unavoidable traps that would be set for them and still be in shape enough to destroy Commorragh, the Dark eldar with their advanced Weaponry and the countless xeno mercenaries that are there fighting for their lives? I feel like the DE could close off parts of the wabway trapping every imperial ship forever. Unless i am wrong which isn't far fetched. I am no expert on this stuff. That was just my interpretation of the codex.


Countless Xenos mercenaries? Even with all the mercenaries they might employ the DE are nothing compared to the might of the Imperium, they're outnumbered millions to one compared to the armies of humanity.

We already know there is at least one Webway portal that leads directly Commorragh and I imagine there would be more, the Dark Eldar don't know the layout of the entire webway (only the Harlequins can lay claim to that sort of knowledge) so if suitably guided the Imperium could potentially slip unnoticed past a number of the DE's defences.

And if the Dark Kin's actions had truly enraged the Imperium to the point where they vowed, and took immediate action on the vow, to wipe the Eldar race from existence then the Craftworlds and Harlequins could conceivably aid the Imperium in it's vengeful crusade in order to sate a degree of that hatred.

On the Galactic scale the DE are a miniscule threat to the Imperium, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and forces of Chaos- any of which could potentially snuff them from existence with the right motivation.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Got to say you could apply the same logic to 1-3 other races, but the fact remains we arn't talking a vendetta of say 100 years we are talking a dedicated racial war that would last for millenia, and really over the course of millenia any defense will fall. Hell people have been into the eye of terror multiple times, and that's like flying into hell compared to navigating a real existent place no matter how dangerous is a cake walk. Seriously the DE raid, rather then invade core sectors for the sole reason of staying low on the radar.

1: The DE are a unified force, the moment Vect's forces would weaken (Through say a idiotic war) someone would back stab him in a heart beat.
2: Such a unified effort is beyond the DE in that the other factions would see the cost, and just assume Vect had gone insane (hence a prime target for removal), and don't give me that crap about Vect having incredible influence.
3: DE are pragmatic, and paranoid so orchestrating such a massive strike would meet with a shit load of opposition within their own race.
4: DE tech or not even Fenris could decimate a huge number of DE before a decisive victory would be established.
5: The high lords of terra are just as clever/insane/all seeing as a archeon, and would probably find a way to either discover the plan ahead of time, or if they survived, and they would they would! They would throw everything at finding a way to access the DE webways, even if it took centuries (They are virtually immortal). Mind you not for concerns of retribution, but so they could claim power over the faltering imperium, by displaying Vects mutilated corpse as a sign that they are the rightful ruler of the imperium.

Also take a step back, and read other codex's. See a trend yah that's right everyone F^%$ing codex makes them sound invincible, what they leave out is their weaknesses ect. Why because no one would buy a 500+ dollar army if they didn't think they where the most awesome army in 40k. Read the Necron codex latly....hmm star gods that can eat suns hmmm sound a hell lot more powerful then anything the DE have. Oh that's right because it is. Hmmm whats this immortal gestalt consciousnesses, that have existed before the Eldar, and have killed entire civilization before the Eldar even existed....sounds a hell lot more powerful then anything in the DE codex, that's BECAUSE IT IS.

DE even with all their tech are about mid range on the threat scale way behind the army of never ending psychic bugs, and the invincible robots with a FU%$ing god on their side.

Could they kill the imperium...possibly. could the DE not likely (Still theoretically possible, but so is time travel.)


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Countless Xenos mercenaries? Even with all the mercenaries they might employ the DE are nothing compared to the might of the Imperium, they're outnumbered millions to one compared to the armies of humanity.


I am not saying that if the full might of the Imperium attacked Commorragh the mercenaries would make a dent. But I am assuming the Armada would take MASSIVE casualties in the webway itself so IF any imperials made it to the end of the maze they would be very much softened up.



> We already know there is at least one Webway portal that leads directly Commorragh and I imagine there would be more, the Dark Eldar don't know the layout of the entire webway (only the Harlequins can lay claim to that sort of knowledge) so if suitably guided the Imperium could potentially slip unnoticed past a number of the DE's defences.


I suppose that this could happen but as i understand it the Harlequins only put up with DE or CE before a good battle so why would they pass up one of the biggest battles ever? Would the miss an opportunity to put on a performance for the whole Imperial navy?


> And if the Dark Kin's actions had truly enraged the Imperium to the point where they vowed, and took immediate action on the vow, to wipe the Eldar race from existence then the Craftworlds and Harlequins could conceivably aid the Imperium in it's vengeful crusade in order to sate a degree of that hatred.


The Craftworld Eldar might, except for maybe Beil-Tan because they would like both sides wiped out and who knows that the Harlequins would do, i lean to them siding with the dark eldar for the reason stated above but i may be wrong. and as you said



Baron Spikey said:


> The Imperium isn't known for bothering to differentiate between the various Eldar factions and the Craftworlds and Exodites are a lot easier to find when it comes to taking vengeance...


So perhaps they would go to war with the "good" eldar first?



> On the Galactic scale the DE are a miniscule threat to the Imperium, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and forces of Chaos- any of which could potentially snuff them from existence with the right motivation.


Again i don't see how they would pull that off. And isn't the threat your not worried about one of the most dangerous? If the DE made a surprise big attack and the Imperium dedicated itself to getting even then the orks, tyranids, necrons and chaos would destroy the heck out of the ones who are left behind.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt (I am sorry if it is coming off that way). I am just trying to understand this. From the fluff they seem so super powerful but they don't do much with it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's because they have some great tech but hardly anyone to actually use it and are hated passionately by every other faction (with the possible exception of the Harlequins who tolerate them). 

If the Imperium was on an anti-Eldar Crusade for which they'd strike out against the Craftwolrds/Exodites first don't you think those factions would try to redirect that rage to ensuring it was directed at the true target (and to be honest I doubt there are many Eldar who would be heartbroken if the Dark Kin were annihilated anyway)?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> It's because they have some great tech but hardly anyone to actually use it and are hated passionately by every other faction (with the possible exception of the Harlequins who tolerate them).


Does Chaos hate them? I understand all the rest but i feel like they kind of support all the chaos good indirectly.
[/quote]
If the Imperium was on an anti-Eldar Crusade for which they'd strike out against the Craftwolrds/Exodites first don't you think those factions would try to redirect that rage to ensuring it was directed at the true target (and to be honest I doubt there are many Eldar who would be heartbroken if the Dark Kin were annihilated anyway)?[/quote]

Do the CE and EE know how to get to Commorragh? I feel like they would have done something about them already, or at least tried to. 


Maybe this whole thing is because i just watch a special on black holes and i found them totally insane and thinking that the DE could put that into a small box kind of blew my mind. I guess this is the kind of thing everyone can have their own interpretation of but it has been great hearing everyone's responses so thanks. Nice to read/talk about something NOT space marines for a change.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Its ok, I also agree it is nice to talk about something other then SPEESE MARRRRIIINEEEEES for once, and honestly I doubt the writer really knew how powerful a black hole is when they mentioned it in the DE fluff. Mind you, both the Eldar, and imperium have far more conventional means of exploding entire worlds ect, but damn if a mini black hole in a box doesn't smack of class.

However U think it has been mentioned somewhere that the EE (Some of them), and the CE know exactly where Commorragh is after all some of them used to live in the webway, and some even lived where commorragh is.

Logically it breaks down like this.

DE awesome in small to mid range battle.
Crappy in appocalypse sized engagements.

Imperial gaurd: unbelievably crappy in small scale, tolerable in mid range engagements.
Awesome in Huge ass battle 

Many other armies fall into this kind of logic, hell even marines lose their thunder when you get into interstellar wars, and more or less become elite independent elements in the bigger imperial war machine.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lets look at the crux of this argument. You are wondering why the DE don't attack valuable positions in the Imperium. Simple Cost-Benefit analysis should suffice.

What do the DE gain by attacking an important, heavily fortified world? Slaves (likely a lot of them), potentially valubale resources and a slightly weakened Imperium. What does it cost them? A large number of casualties and a pissed of Imperium.

The slaves can be gathered from any planet the DE chose, some planets can be repeatedly harvested with no casualties taken. The resources are less valuable to the DE than their lives and can also be taken from other places. While the DE do not care about their comrades they care about themselves. Large casualties means an increased risk in your dying but furthermore it means a weakening of your Kabal (compared to those that didn't fight, or didn't fight as hard) and so one of those Kabals might now make a move (one that would almost certainly kill you). The Imperium has the man power and crazy scitzo-tech required to enter and navigate the webway SHOULD THEY SO DESIRE. Currently they have their eyes focused elsewhere and it would be best for the DE to keep them there. The Imperium is far to powerful and large for the DE to ever home of taking it out, however it is also stagnating and crumbling from the inside. Wait it out and then take advantage of the age of chaos that follows. Also the Imperium makes an excellent meatshield/slave-source for the DE and wiping it out might be a bad idea.


Seondly I want to address I couple flaws I see in your argument Klaivex that no one has addressed yet.

1. The DE are arrogant yes, but they are not stupid. They believe themselves to be the rightful rulers of the galaxy and all other races to be beneath them. They still know not to piss them off. A bear is beneath us but would you go around slapping them in the face? I wouldn't, but maybe thats just because I like my face the way it is, alive.

2. DE tech is certainly powerful but it's also rare, difficult to use and difficult to acquire the reasources for. They cannot reliably or consistently 'pop a black hole' wherever they want one. 

3. DE are not masters of the webway. They are more familiar with it than most but they cannot shape it at will. Occasionally a very powerful archon will come across a previously existing piece of technology that allows certain actions to be done. This in no way means that this action can be prefromed by any DE in any location at any time.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Again as i said before i think its a matter of interpretation. I don't think we are thinking about it in the same way.

Do you have any citation for point 2?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Something else that reinforces MEQinc's view that the Dark Eldar, by and large, just do what they want to do... just as they always have: they used the same tactics and engaged in the same activities even before the Imperium arose.

See, for instance, the Salamanders Index Astartes article. It's widely implied that the aliens that were plaguing Nocturne were Dark Eldar. The humans of that planet had archaic tech. They had no business holding off the Dark Eldar, and in fact the article states that when the alien pirates showed up, the humans went running and hiding. If the Dark Eldar wanted to, they could have owned that planet and its many previous resources. Or, for another example, see the short story "Wolf at the Door" from 'Tales of Heresy'. The Dark Eldar again are content to simply maintain structures on Antimon, from which they can sally forth to capture slaves at their leisure. The humans are completely helpless to resist them or wage war against then--a phenomenon that goes back for a long time.

The Dark Eldar are simply not interested in conquest. They understand their limitations (numbers, desire for survival, competitive ambition) and what they can achieve. As stated many a time, they are ruthless, cunning, and smart... and they ac accordingly.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I must agree with MEQinc and the Baron on this, the DE are not going to hit a major Imperial world that would have significant defenses, unless of course that world was already under attack by another power. But even then, they'd be more interested in raiding and taking slaves than trying to defeat the two fighting forces.

Now I haven't read the new Codex, but in the old one the reason they lived in the Webway was that it there that Slaanesh's consumption on their souls is at its weakest, a further reason why they aren't interested in wiping out a major Imperial world. Most powers in 40k will attack a world to acquire it or something on it. The Tyranids come to strip a world completely, most Orks just want to loot, pillage and fight but some Warlords seek to carve out an empire for themselves, Chaos seeks to conquer worlds, tearing down the great edifices of the Imperium, corrupting the Emperor-worshiping populace and in rare cases, tainting it until it becomes a Daemon World and the Lord becomes its Daemon Prince. But for the DE, they have no interest in worlds period, only the people on them. Furthermore, they lack the manpower to conquer a world, long term subjugation of its populace and defending it from those that would seek to take what they've taken. Nor would they try to annihilate a world as it would be a waste of slaves that they could capture and use. Finally, the DE aren't fools. If they became the dominate force in the galaxy, (despite the sheer impossibility of it) they would gain the massive target that the Imperium has. Considering the safety that Commorragh provides, it's an utterly stupid idea.

Finally as to the black-hole-in-a-box, from the sound of it, this was a relic from before the Fall and not something that he can readily use again. So don't think of that as an example of their normal tech.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Again as i said before i think its a matter of interpretation. I don't think we are thinking about it in the same way.


Indeed we are. I am attempting to create reasoned, logical arguments based on my understanding of DE phycology and society. You appear to be primarily interested in the OMFG WOW factor of certain aspects of DE tech. 



> Do you have any citation for point 2?


Don't have my codex here (cause I'm at work) so I'll have to look up the 'black hole in a box' story latter. In the meantime I would point to the lack of any tech of similar power/nature in the army list, or even more than one mention of it. Looking at the tech the DE make common usage of we see 'Soul in a box' tech (which would ikely just be an expansion of their soul absorbing tech) and 'Dark Matter' as pretty much the pinacle of what is reasonably achievable. Neither of these things compares to the technology that would have to be present to negate the gravity/mass of a black-hole (which is as far as I know theorectially impossible) which would be necessary to not only 'trap' the hole but MOVE it in the box.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm not particually keen on Vect's fluff in the current book. I preferred the old codex which explained him as being the oldest eldar in existance (older than Eldrad).

As for you Klaivex. I agree with LukeValentine, you really need to read the codex. DE are not galactic crusaders who can take on the Imperium. They are no where near as numerous (although more so than the Eldar) and it's entirely out of their written character. If you want to go against written fluff, come up with your own fluff for your own army. Then you can have your all conquering DE templars.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Where is everyone getting that I think the DE should go on some massive crusade?

I have said many times that i don't think that! They should pop out of a WWP as usual, kill, maim and capture and disappear. But they have the power to do so much more but they never do and to me that seems out of character for their back story. 

Again so we can stop the confusion I DO NOT think they should go on a crusade.


According to the codex (which i have read a cited several times) the DE are the most arrogant, self indulgent, sadistic, greedy race in the galaxy, so much so that they created a GOD, and with the regrowth pods and ability to age backwards from absorbing pain, they are basically, for lack of a better term, immortal. Yes I know they can be killed for good but it is not as easy to kill them "for good" as it is other races.

Now if you were the apex of arrogance, self indulgence, sadism and greed and you could live almost forever would you be content just hiding in the shadows for all eternity? Is it such a stretch to think that beings like that would want more? Or just want to mix things up a bit to make life more exciting? I'm not saying they go out and destroy the whole Ultima Segmentum! I am saying one big act that would allow them to indulge on all their vices. 

And yeah the Imperium would be pissed but how much of its force can it split off to go fight the DE on their home turf? Who is going to take care of the Ork, Chaos, Tyranids, CE, Deamons, renigade IG and other Xeno threats. The Imperium is basically already fighting to the north, south, east, west, up, down, left and right. Are they really going to be able to continue to do that while going into basically a middle dimension and do the same thing there?

I realise that this has not happened in the codex and I am not saying it should happen. I am just wondering if a race like the DE had the power to make a total mess out of thing why would they choose to just sit back and chill? It seems uncharacteristic of how there personalities have been described. 

And the whole risk vs reward issue? 
Wouldn't a Kabal gain respect and power if they collected a bunch of space marines and then black holed their home world to prevent retaliation. 

Wouldn't a haemonculi like to try out a new toy on a nice famous target instead of a lowly agri world?

And if they just do a conventional raid on a larger scale to collect more slaves then how will they have more casualties? They will have more fire power to deal with defenders, more fellows to bring body parts back to be regenerated and more bodies to snatch people up (hide your wives, hide your kids, hide your husbands too)


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

And do you think that the Eldar would allow the DE to capture individuals such as Logan Grimnar/Calgar? Individuals who are imperitive in the fight against Chaos?

Without such characters, the Imperium would lose hope, lose strength and Chaos would destroy them. Once that's done, where do the Chaos gods turn? To the orks? what about after them? The Tau? And after that?

Remember the DE are all in favour of the greater plan.

Not to mention, one Archon probably favours his chances attacking his own kind than risking an attempt on such highly defensive worlds. He'd rather someone else did the hard bit then they attack the surviving DE as they return to Comm. But don't you think all DE think that way? Perhaps they are just waiting for another Kabal do make such a manuver.

Perhaps in the Future such attempts will happen, but as it is. Although the Imperium is fading. It's still the epitome of strength in the 40k universe. Thus, at the moment, it's not such a good idea.

Vect is well aware of the faults of Over-indulgance. Look at his rise to power (in the recent fluff).

GW have a very good 'Gamma Fluff'. Meaning it'll never truly progress to the next chapter. Feel free to speculate and come up with your own ideas. 
But GW's fluff over-rules that. And currently, the Imperium is too strong. And the Eldar are too vigilant. And both races are prone to sided with one another when it's necessary. And attacks against key people within the imperium, IE Dante, are more than necessary excuses to form an Alliance.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Orochi said:


> And do you think that the Eldar would allow the DE to capture individuals such as Logan Grimnar/Calgar? Individuals who are imperitive in the fight against Chaos?


I never say anything about capturing and Chapter masters. I said snatch up a bunch of marines (which they have done in the fluff) and then destroy the world.



> Remember the DE are all in favour of the greater plan.


I have not read anything about that. Where did you find that?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Where is everyone getting that I think the DE should go on some massive crusade?
> 
> I have said many times that i don't think that! They should pop out of a WWP as usual, kill, maim and capture and disappear. But they have the power to do so much more but they never do and to me that seems out of character for their back story.
> 
> Again so we can stop the confusion I DO NOT think they should go on a crusade.


But you are advocating attacks on important, and thus heavily defended, worlds. The two go hand in hand in the Imperium. You cannot attack any target the Imperium would feel the lose of without the Imperium fighting back in greater strength/numbers/etc than the DE have any wish (or the ability) to fight against.



> According to the codex (which i have read a cited several times) the DE are the most arrogant, self indulgent, sadistic, greedy race in the galaxy, so much so that they created a GOD, and with the regrowth pods and ability to age backwards from absorbing pain, they are basically, for lack of a better term, immortal. Yes I know they can be killed for good but it is not as easy to kill them "for good" as it is other races.


Once you have immortality dieing becomes so much worse. The DE live in constant fear of death, because should they die (like really die, permenantly) Slaanesh will claim their souls and it will be VERY bad for them. Parts can only be regrown for a short period after death and first you have to make a deal (often a very expensive one) with the Haemonculus. But what if you 'friends' 'forget' your body parts? What if it takes to long? What if the Haemonculus betrays you? Or there's no one left? To much risk. Best to not die at all. 

You've forgotten that the DE are also desperate survivors. This shapes their society from its very core. They will do what it takes to survive, and they're doing fine right now, without crazy sucicidal death-raids. 



> Now if you were the apex of arrogance, self indulgence, sadism and greed and you could live almost forever would you be content just hiding in the shadows for all eternity? Is it such a stretch to think that beings like that would want more? Or just want to mix things up a bit to make life more exciting? I'm not saying they go out and destroy the whole Ultima Segmentum! I am saying one big act that would allow them to indulge on all their vices.


Their not hiding in the shadows. They live in their own city, a world designed to allow them to satisfy their every desire. What pleasure does the outside world hold that they can't get at home? An increased risk of eternal torment.



> And yeah the Imperium would be pissed but how much of its force can it split off to go fight the DE on their home turf? Who is going to take care of the Ork, Chaos, Tyranids, CE, Deamons, renigade IG and other Xeno threats. The Imperium is basically already fighting to the north, south, east, west, up, down, left and right. Are they really going to be able to continue to do that while going into basically a middle dimension and do the same thing there?


If the Imperium prioriztes the DE above other races they could wipe out the DE easily, sure doing that would leave them exposed to the others but the Imperium is not really known for its logical restraint. If the Imperium chose to only focus slightly more on DE they could retask the White Scars to keep track of them, find a webway get, get it open and kill them all. And that would happen. It would take a long time but eventually a DE would leave a door open and the wolves would be at the door. Just look how much damage a Salamanders Company did, imagine what the full fury of a Chapter (a founding chapter no less) could do.




> And the whole risk vs reward issue?





> Wouldn't a Kabal gain respect and power if they collected a bunch of space marines and then black holed their home world to prevent retaliation.


Sure but they would be very vulnerable at the point of their return (before they've had a chance to regen their fallen and repair their vehicles) so why wouldn't another Kabal sweep in, finish off the survivors and take all the slaves and glory for themselves. The DE are their own worst enemy, in no other race is that more true. It is always a careful balancing act between having enough power so people won't ignore your threats and having too much power so they attack you anyway. This is the game they play at home and its the one they play with the Imperium too.




> Wouldn't a haemonculi like to try out a new toy on a nice famous target instead of a lowly agri world?


Famous amongst the Mon-Kiegh? Who cares? An agri-world offers thousands of different test subjects and thus the possibility for thousands of different experiments and sensations. 

Plus there is one archon who has devoted his Kabal to hunting down and killing famous Imperial soldiers. 




> And if they just do a conventional raid on a larger scale to collect more slaves then how will they have more casualties? They will have more fire power to deal with defenders, more fellows to bring body parts back to be regenerated and more bodies to snatch people up (hide your wives, hide your kids, hide your husbands too)


The Imperium does not defend things in proportion to their size or population. The DE can and do regularly launch large scale raids on planets full of people that the Imperium hardly bothers to defend. That is not what we're discussing. We are talking about attacking a world the Imperium values. Fenris was your example so lets use that. Fenris is a hell-hole of a planet, it supports a meager population and little to no natural reasources. It also houses an entire Chapter of Space Marines. Regardless of how many DE attack the Fang they are still going to lose more men (and lose them permenantly) than they will abducting peasent farmers somewhere else. If the Imperium values a world they defend it with billions of guardsmen, thousands of ships and hundreds of space marines. Why bother when you can sneak around said bastion of defense and attack its lowly neighbour. The population of a world disappears over night and EVERY SINGLE ONE of those soldiers is afriad of you. Attack them directly and EVERY SINGLE ONE of those soldiers hates you, and is not afraid. The nightmares of men are far worse than anything a mortal (however immortal they may seem) can inflict upon them.

Feel free to change your example world now, I wait with prepared counter-points.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> But you are advocating attacks on important, and thus heavily defended, worlds. The two go hand in hand in the Imperium. You cannot attack any target the Imperium would feel the lose of without the Imperium fighting back in greater strength/numbers/etc than the DE have any wish (or the ability) to fight against.


The DE are not part of the Imperium? One or two larger attack is in no way shape or form a crusade. Its the DE doing what they do.




> Once you have immortality dieing becomes so much worse. The DE live in constant fear of death, because should they die (like really die, permenantly) Slaanesh will claim their souls and it will be VERY bad for them. Parts can only be regrown for a short period after death and first you have to make a deal (often a very expensive one) with the Haemonculus. But what if you 'friends' 'forget' your body parts? What if it takes to long? What if the Haemonculus betrays you? Or there's no one left? To much risk. Best to not die at all.


I agree with this. Say your a dark eldar and you have to go on a raid. Would you want 100 guys with you or 1000 guys with you if YOU want to survive? Your chance of living is much higher the more bodies there are to block the bullets from getting to you.



> You've forgotten that the DE are also desperate survivors. This shapes their society from its very core. They will do what it takes to survive, and they're doing fine right now, without crazy sucicidal death-raids.


Desperate to survive Slaneesh. Not desperate to survive the Imperium. The Imperium is just a bunch of cave men in their eyes.


> Their not hiding in the shadows. They live in their own city, a world designed to allow them to satisfy their every desire. What pleasure does the outside world hold that they can't get at home? An increased risk of eternal torment.


Slaves... lots and lots of slaves



> If the Imperium prioriztes the DE above other races they could wipe out the DE easily, sure doing that would leave them exposed to the others but the Imperium is not really known for its logical restraint. If the Imperium chose to only focus slightly more on DE they could retask the White Scars to keep track of them, find a webway get, get it open and kill them all. And that would happen. It would take a long time but eventually a DE would leave a door open and the wolves would be at the door. Just look how much damage a Salamanders Company did, imagine what the full fury of a Chapter (a founding chapter no less) could do.


Different parts of the Imperium have had reasons to go after the DE at one point or another (I'll get to one later too) but the ones i can think of off hand are the Salamanders which were basically invited in to do what they did and Kahn and he hasn't been seen for like 9000 years so things probably didn't go overly well for him because the DE haven't been wiped out. Maybe the Imperium is more logical than you give it credit for? Probably not though ha ha.



> Sure but they would be very vulnerable at the point of their return (before they've had a chance to regen their fallen and repair their vehicles) so why wouldn't another Kabal sweep in, finish off the survivors and take all the slaves and glory for themselves. The DE are their own worst enemy, in no other race is that more true. It is always a careful balancing act between having enough power so people won't ignore your threats and having too much power so they attack you anyway. This is the game they play at home and its the one they play with the Imperium too.


Perhaps but again i think we may be imagining how things would go during the raid differently.



> Famous amongst the Mon-Kiegh? Who cares? An agri-world offers thousands of different test subjects and thus the possibility for thousands of different experiments and sensations.


Because DE are narcissistic a-holes and would probably get off causing as much strife to the lesser beings to show them their place. I think we are thinking about this differently.



> Plus there is one archon who has devoted his Kabal to hunting down and killing famous Imperial soldiers.


That's pretty cool. I must have missed that somewhere. Where would i find that info?



> The Imperium does not defend things in proportion to their size or population. The DE can and do regularly launch large scale raids on planets full of people that the Imperium hardly bothers to defend. That is not what we're discussing. We are talking about attacking a world the Imperium values. Fenris was your example so lets use that. Fenris is a hell-hole of a planet, it supports a meager population and little to no natural reasources. It also houses an entire Chapter of Space Marines. Regardless of how many DE attack the Fang they are still going to lose more men (and lose them permenantly) than they will abducting peasent farmers somewhere else. If the Imperium values a world they defend it with billions of guardsmen, thousands of ships and hundreds of space marines. Why bother when you can sneak around said bastion of defense and attack its lowly neighbour. The population of a world disappears over night and EVERY SINGLE ONE of those soldiers is afriad of you. Attack them directly and EVERY SINGLE ONE of those soldiers hates you, and is not afraid. The nightmares of men are far worse than anything a mortal (however immortal they may seem) can inflict upon them.
> 
> Feel free to change your example world now, I wait with prepared counter-points.


I'll stick with fenris for now (it is just an example though) 

DE Codex Page 22 "The Thieves of the Ice Mist"

The DE were on Fenris capturing new space wolfs and bringing them to Mydgarden to "play" with them. When the SW found out and tracked them down they attack and the DE vanished while laughing at them so they must not have been too worried about the might of a founding chapter. And not only did they find there mutated brother but also corrupt Russ like clones. I didn't hear about any space wolves getting redemption about it. They just pretend like it never happened? Why? Why don't they go kick some DE ass for attacking their home world and desecrating the memory of their beloved primarch?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> According to the codex (which i have read a cited several times) the DE are the most arrogant, self indulgent, sadistic, greedy race in the galaxy, so much so that they created a GOD, and with the regrowth pods and ability to age backwards from absorbing pain, they are basically, for lack of a better term, immortal. Yes I know they can be killed for good but it is not as easy to kill them "for good" as it is other races.
> 
> Now if you were the apex of arrogance, self indulgence, sadism and greed and you could live almost forever would you be content just hiding in the shadows for all eternity? Is it such a stretch to think that beings like that would want more? Or just want to mix things up a bit to make life more exciting? I'm not saying they go out and destroy the whole Ultima Segmentum! I am saying one big act that would allow them to indulge on all their vices.


You aren't fully grasping the DE. Their own vanity and arrogance that dictates how their Archons will fight. They see the conventional warfare of the Imperium and other forces as crude and primitive, befitting of races that are like vermin to them. Like their Craftworld cousins, cunning and guile are the ways they prefer to conduct war. To them, it's why bother attacking a SM Fortress-Monastery when you can attack the populace that they recruit from. In fact, they would go for that a lot more as it would be spitting in the face of the SM. Ultimately, when it comes to war, there are two things that get them off more than just killing, executing a masterful strategy that allows them to take out a significantly larger force and inflicting psychological blows on those that they don't take or further prolonging their suffering.

In fact, I just borrowed a friend's copy of the new Codex and there is a battle in the DE timeline were they recently aided Craftworld Iyanden against an Ork Waaagh! that was threatening to wipe them out. Afterwords, when asked why they helped, the DE replied that they found 'Iyanden's angst-ridden forays into the world of necromancy extremely entertaining'.

Simply put, destroying a world will give them a momentary thrill. But if they carry through with a typical planetary raid, taking some, killing others and leaving the grisly remains behind for the rest to find, leaving them with a terror of some unseen horror that took these people and come back which they inevitably will. This makes things all the more sweeter for them in future raids as their next victims of that world will know that some terrible has come for them.

Ultimately, your problem is that you're trying to apply human logic and rational to alien minds. They are not humans so they don't quite think like us.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Klaivex, a few points. 

1) Yes, the DE massivly irritated the Space Wolves. Let's even assume (thought he fluff doesn't support it) they are angry enough to determine a crusade against the DE. Where do they go to crusade? They don't know where the Dark Eldar Are. If the DE came out to conquer, they'd be findable. That's why they don't stay to conquer. Even a rich, juicey world.

2) The DE are waiting out Slaannesh. They hope the imperium or someone is successful in clearing away chaos. When you're immortal or close to, you can easily play the loooong game. Again, showing yourself and setting up bases detracts from hiding from Slaanesh. 

3) The Webway is broken. It's still functional, but it's hardly reliable. You don't want to risk a webway portal going down and isolating a large number of irreplacable warriors where the younger powers can get at them. So hit hard, fast, and run away before anything happens.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> You aren't fully grasping the DE. Their own vanity and arrogance that dictates how their Archons will fight. They see the conventional warfare of the Imperium and other forces as crude and primitive, befitting of races that are like vermin to them. Like their Craftworld cousins, cunning and guile are the ways they prefer to conduct war. To them, it's why bother attacking a SM Fortress-Monastery when you can attack the populace that they recruit from. In fact, they would go for that a lot more as it would be spitting in the face of the SM. Ultimately, when it comes to war, there are two things that get them off more than just killing, executing a masterful strategy that allows them to take out a significantly larger force and inflicting psychological blows on those that they don't take or further prolonging their suffering.


I must be terrible at getting my point across because i have never said anything about crusades or attack fortress-monasteries but everyone seems to think that is what I am talking about?



> In fact, I just borrowed a friend's copy of the new Codex and there is a battle in the DE timeline were they recently aided Craftworld Iyanden against an Ork Waaagh! that was threatening to wipe them out. Afterwords, when asked why they helped, the DE replied that they found 'Iyanden's angst-ridden forays into the world of necromancy extremely entertaining'.


I would classify that as a momentary thrill. Something they do just for the fun of it.



> Simply put, destroying a world will give them a momentary thrill. But if they carry through with a typical planetary raid, taking some, killing others and leaving the grisly remains behind for the rest to find, leaving them with a terror of some unseen horror that took these people and come back which they inevitably will. This makes things all the more sweeter for them in future raids as their next victims of that world will know that some terrible has come for them.


The same thing could be said for destroying a planet but instead of leaving leaving some of the people of that world in terror they would be leaving a whole system in terror.



> Ultimately, your problem is that you're trying to apply human logic and rational to alien minds. They are not humans so they don't quite think like us.


Of course i am applying human logic to them. Their whole back story and culture was written by humans using human logic. But i am trying to think more along the lines of being a sadist but on a galactic scale. I can't quite do that because i am not a sadist.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex: :headbutt: *sighs* Okay, why don't you explain what _exactly_ you think that the Dark Eldar should be doing in simple and straightforward manner so we can understand exactly what you're trying to get at. Because it seems like every time we try to explain it to you, you either change what it is you're getting at or just seemingly ignoring us.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Klaivex: :headbutt: *sighs* Okay, why don't you explain what _exactly_ you think that the Dark Eldar should be doing in simple and straightforward manner so we can understand exactly what you're trying to get at. Because it seems like every time we try to explain it to you, you either change what it is you're getting at or just seemingly ignoring us.


Funny. I feel the same way because every time i say anything everyone thinks i'm saying the DE should go on a crusade and conquer planets or attack chapter master and fortress monasteries.

And can you point to what i have ignored or changed? (except the terra webway which i didn't know was closed for business).

I will make it as simple as i can so hopefully you will all stop misinterpreting what I say.

Step 1: The DE pick a planet of importance that they can easily get to (example Fenris)
Step 2: DE pop out of a webway portal just like a normal raid
Step 3: They kill and capture a bunch of people
Step 4: They use some of their super tech like a black hole or giant squid portal or WHATEVER to destroy the planet

Results: The DE have a bunch of slaves and left a whole system in the grips of terror. They then proceed to rape and torture and have an all around party.

The end


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Creon said:


> That's why they don't stay to conquer.


Please show me where I EVER say they stay and conquer.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Where in the fluff is there the ability of a DE raider force to destroy a planet. And WHY would they destroy a planet? That just aids CHAOS, which is anti-Eldar, Dark or Light. The fluff says they can steal suns, but I think it insinuates they have forgotten how in the eons past. Even if they could set off such a destructive device, and they remembered how, i.e. a blackstone fortress, it would probably further damage the webway in unpredictable ways, making it something they wouldn't want to do.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Creon said:


> Where in the fluff is there the ability of a DE raider force to destroy a planet. And WHY would they destroy a planet? That just aids CHAOS, which is anti-Eldar, Dark or Light. The fluff says they can steal suns, but I think it insinuates they have forgotten how in the eons past. Even if they could set off such a destructive device, and they remembered how, i.e. a blackstone fortress, it would probably further damage the webway in unpredictable ways, making it something they wouldn't want to do.


In the fluff they have the ability to put a black hole in a small box. a black hole can destroy a planet. I am sure they have other things that can do it as well. 

They haven't done it in the codex. This whole tread is asking WHY?

The Imperium destroys planets all the time. Are they aiding chaos? 

And they would destroy it for fun. That's pretty much the only reason DE do ANYTHING beside the regular raids the need to survive.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> In the fluff they have the ability to put a black hole in a small box. a black hole can destroy a planet. I am sure they have other things that can do it as well.
> 
> They haven't done it in the codex. This whole tread is asking WHY?
> 
> ...


Why would they waste a resource like that for fun? Not to mention if they leave the planet alone, it is possible after a while it will become populated again or either the Imperium sends new people there if the Dark Eldar actually killed off every single sentient life-form. Once repopulated, they would be weakened and trying to reform their defenses, making ripe for another raid...so why bother? The only time I could see the DE using a doomsday device in destroying an entire planet is a last-ditch effort to escape or to destroy a Necron tomb world or something.

In addition to this, why would they bother changing what they usually do now? Out of all the choices for raiding, Fenris as you suggested, like others have said, is a ridiculous choice for a place to raid. Not only are you going into a sparsely populated area, but it's protected by the bloody Space Wolves chapter. The Fang has so far repelled every invasion so far. Even with the dark eldar's advanced technology, they would still take significant heavy losses, and assuming they do destroy fenris with the black hole, what exactly would you gain? A few hundred slaves you could have taken from a modestly defended agri-world with no losses? Not to mention taking down one of the more significant chapter's home planet could result in severe counter attacks. No offense but your argument seems very circular, once we disprove something you just go back to the same idea with the same disproved argument.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Grimskul25 said:


> Why would they waste a resource like that for fun? Not to mention if they leave the planet alone, it is possible after a while it will become populated again or either the Imperium sends new people there if the Dark Eldar actually killed off every single sentient life-form. Once repopulated, they would be weakened and trying to reform their defenses, making ripe for another raid...so why bother? The only time I could see the DE using a doomsday device in destroying an entire planet is a last-ditch effort to escape or to destroy a Necron tomb world or something.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to this, why would they bother changing what they usually do now? Out of all the choices for raiding, Fenris as you suggested, like others have said, is a ridiculous choice for a place to raid. Not only are you going into a sparsely populated area, but it's protected by the bloody Space Wolves chapter. The Fang has so far repelled every invasion so far. Even with the dark eldar's advanced technology, they would still take significant heavy losses, and assuming they do destroy fenris with the black hole, what exactly would you gain? A few hundred slaves you could have taken from a modestly defended agri-world with no losses? Not to mention taking down one of the more significant chapter's home planet could result in severe counter attacks. No offense but your argument seems very circular, once we disprove something you just go back to the same idea with the same disproved argument.


 
They do stuff just for fun all the time. 

I agree with you that they would not do something like this on a agri world where harvesting slaves is relatively easy but they aren't getting a lot of slaves on SM home worlds or heavily defended worlds anyway and I feel like messing with one of those planets would cause panic on surrounding planets make them much easier to raid.

The DE have been on fenris already and captured space wolves as has been said already. Had they decided to open up a black hole box (or any other crazy arcane toy they may have) fenris would be long gone. They choose not to do that though and I don't understand why.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex,

In response to your previous post:

Off the top of my head...

1. If you destroyed the planet, then you ran out of a source of slaves.
2. If you moved all the slaves off the planet first, now you have to worry about keeping them alive until you need to use/abuse them.
2a. To say nothing of the massive issues of self control involved when a bunch of Dark Eldar are trying to keep their hands out of a massive metaphorical cookie jar. :grin:

The Imperium destroys planets because they walk a fine line between "desperate" and "stupid".

The Dark Eldar torture, maim, terrorize, and, ultimately, kill their slaves because (A) they rely on such efforts to stave off their soul-drain and (B) because they are sadists who get pleasure out of directly involving themselves in physical suffering or (a close second) observing such activity--like their gladiator games. Blowing a planet isn't going to do the same thing for them. Oh, I'm sure they'd cackle like cartoon villains and stroke their pretend mustaches, but it would not be the same as flaying some hapless trooper while fondling his wife (or whatever).

As to why they wouldn't destroy Fenris, or any other Space Marine Chapter? Any number of reasons. But, again, off the top of my head? Vect isn't an idiot. He probably recognizes the ideological and moral impetus behind a potent symbol such a First Founding Chapter. If he destroyed one, and the Imperium figured out who did it, you can bet that they would treat the situation as wholly different from their standard "xenos pirates terrorize/kidnap a bunch of faceless peons, ho-hum" stance. There may very well be a Webway gate to the most cherished tomb/memorial to Sebastian Thor, but Vect probably won't go piss on it and give the "thumbs up" sign if he knows he'll be found out eventually. :grin:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The greater plan being the Long game.

Basically, I think the DE fluff has gone straight over your head. You have little to no idea how the race works and thinks.

You're refering to one incident in the new fluff about a piece of tech. Your entire arguement is driven by this one story.

Read the rest of the book.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Klaivex,
> 
> In response to your previous post:
> 
> ...


1 Whats the biggest risk to the DE during a raid? A nearby Imperial force. If they destroy the closest imperial force all the planets in the system will be dramatically less protected from slave raids
2 In the situation I have been talking about they aren't taking the whole population as slaves. They are getting a few really good slaves and then removing an obstacle that could hurt them from getting more slaves, while at the same time putting a whole system in a state of panic.




> The Dark Eldar torture, maim, terrorize, and, ultimately, kill their slaves because (A) they rely on such efforts to stave off their soul-drain and (B) because they are sadists who get pleasure out of directly involving themselves in physical suffering or (a close second) observing such activity--like their gladiator games. Blowing a planet isn't going to do the same thing for them. Oh, I'm sure they'd cackle like cartoon villains and stroke their pretend mustaches, but it would not be the same as flaying some hapless trooper while fondling his wife (or whatever).


First and foremost WIN!!
Secondly I agree that they would prefer to do things up close and personal but again its a mean to an ends If you do A, B will be much easier. A is destroying the nearby defences, B is getting slaves and C is just having a good time killing a whole bunch of lesser beings and causing panic.



> As to why they wouldn't destroy Fenris, or any other Space Marine Chapter? Any number of reasons. But, again, off the top of my head? Vect isn't an idiot. He probably recognizes the ideological and moral impetus behind a potent symbol such a First Founding Chapter. If he destroyed one, and the Imperium figured out who did it, you can bet that they would treat the situation as wholly different from their standard "xenos pirates terrorize/kidnap a bunch of faceless peons, ho-hum" stance. There may very well be a Webway gate to the most cherished tomb/memorial to Sebastian Thor, but Vect probably won't go piss on it and give the "thumbs up" sign if he knows he'll be found out eventually. :grin:


I agree with this. I know Vect isn't stupid (although arguably any archon could arrange something like this) but it would not be the best place to start. I was simply using it as an example because fenris seems to have a nearby warp gate. It could conceivably be a tactic for any SM or IG planet with or near a warp gate. And if the DE can sneak onto fenris with all those bloodhound like SW they could most certainly get just about anywhere.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> In the fluff they have the ability to put a black hole in a small box. a black hole can destroy a planet. I am sure they have other things that can do it as well.
> 
> They haven't done it in the codex. This whole tread is asking WHY?


Okay, where exactly did this whole Black-Hole-in-a-Box come from? Cite your source and we can lay this to rest.

As for destroying a world, (barring that Black-Hole-in-a-Box thing) again the vanity of the DE would prevent them from doing that virtually all the time as there would be nothing to say 'We did this'. The vast majority of DE raids have the bodies of the dead posed in a grisly manner for others to find. _That's_ how they scare those they don't take. Destroying a world they raided is akin to an artist creating a beautiful painting but not signing it. In the new Codex, there's a story of a Tau world that was attacked by the DE and its entire population was killed or enslaved. But before they left, they arranged the bodies of the dead into vile symbols that could only be seen from above. Destroying an entire world actually be less terrifying than finding an entirely empty world with only corpses that have been deflied in the most gruesome ways. When they resettle the world, stories and rumors will circulate around of the world being cursed and that its people just disappeared one day. These stories spread and grow, becoming akin to various ghost tales save that they're about the entire planet, further terrifying the new populace when the DE return for more souls and launch their inital attacks to blind and silence the world to the rest of the system.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Orochi said:


> The greater plan being the Long game.
> 
> Basically, I think the DE fluff has gone straight over your head. You have little to no idea how the race works and thinks.
> 
> ...


Again where does it say anything about a greater plan or the long game? I will happily admit you right if this is something real. It is very possible that I missed something but I have read the codex cover to cover. And I have mention more than one thing if you actually read the thread.

I am referring to the level of technology that the DE possess. Forget that I said the black hole in a box. Make it a super nova in a jar, or a warp storm in a dora the explorer balloon. What ever it is with there magic-like technology they have the ability to make things easier for themselves. Why don't they?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Are the DE your first army?
If not, how much GW fluff have you read?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Okay, where exactly did this whole Black-Hole-in-a-Box come from? Cite your source and we can lay this to rest.


in the codex, page 21, bottom left. but honestly that doesn't even really matter. 

As for destroying a world, (barring that Black-Hole-in-a-Box thing) again the vanity of the DE would prevent them from doing that virtually all the time as there would be nothing to say 'We did this'. The vast majority of DE raids have the bodies of the dead posed in a grisly manner for others to find. _That's_ how they scare those they don't take. Destroying a world they raided is akin to an artist creating a beautiful painting but not signing it. In the new Codex, there's a story of a Tau world that was attacked by the DE and its entire population was killed or enslaved. But before they left, they arranged the bodies of the dead into vile symbols that could only be seen from above. Destroying an entire world actually be less terrifying than finding an entirely empty world with only corpses that have been deflied in the most gruesome ways. When they resettle the world, stories and rumors will circulate around of the world being cursed and that its people just disappeared one day. These stories spread and grow, becoming akin to various ghost tales save that they're about the entire planet, further terrifying the new populace when the DE return for more souls and launch their inital attacks to blind and silence the world to the rest of the system.[/quote]
I agree that this is a very effective way of scarring people... on one planet. 

Say all the planets in our solar system had people on them. Something attacks earth stealing half the population and leaving 1/4 of the population dead. The few remaining survivors would be freaked the heck out. 

Now say that instead of that Jupiter (which in this situation has the Jupiter boys space marine chapter that protects the whole system). One day the people of the other planets wake up and Jupiter is just a big hole in the galaxy. Now who is freaked out, and easy prey?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Orochi said:


> Are the DE your first army?
> If not, how much GW fluff have you read?


I played space marines and DE like 7 years ago but then stopped to fill my head with useless college crap and just started up again recently. 

I have read most of most of the codexes and all the the DE because that's what I am playing now and i think i read the Ultramarines omnibus but i don't really remember it much. 

Are you a politician or a lawyer?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I am referring to the level of technology that the DE possess. Forget that I said the black hole in a box. Make it a super nova in a jar, or a warp storm in a dora the explorer balloon. What ever it is with there magic-like technology they have the ability to make things easier for themselves. Why don't they?


You're assuming that this Black-Hole-in-a-Whatever is a somewhat avalible weapon. But for all you know, it could be an extremely rare relic from before the Fall that only Vect has. Furthermore, he may not have the ability to replenish it after use. And I actually kind of doubt as to whether or not he would actually allow other DE have such a powerful weapon. Truthfully, I've never heard anything in the fluff of DE destroying worlds. I've heard of CE manipulating events to bring about the destruction of a world but never directly destroying them.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> You're assuming that this Black-Hole-in-a-Whatever is a somewhat avalible weapon. But for all you know, it could be an extremely rare relic from before the Fall that only Vect has. Furthermore, he may not have the ability to replenish it after use. And I actually kind of doubt as to whether or not he would actually allow other DE have such a powerful weapon. Truthfully, I've never heard anything in the fluff of DE destroying worlds. I've heard of CE manipulating events to bring about the destruction of a world but never directly destroying them.


This is very true and has already been said but there is no account of how numerous items like these are or how many different varieties of them exist or who has them. I am betting there would be more than one and probably many different kinds even if there is only 1or2 of each. It doesn't HAVE to be a black hole as I have said. Just that level of technology.

I haven't heard of the DE destroying planets either and thats what I have been asking this whole time.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> In the fluff they have the ability to put a black hole in a small box. a black hole can destroy a planet. I am sure they have other things that can do it as well.
> 
> They haven't done it in the codex. This whole tread is asking WHY?
> 
> ...


The DE are a race who cannot afford to take stupid risks anymore. Vect is in control of Commoragh, and he`s aiming to keep it that way. Antagonising the major players of the galaxy is not the best idea when your realm is filled with murderers all too willing to take your place given the chance.

The long game being referred to is the one of survival. They have the means to live forever, and they know a battle is coming, a big one. It is no secret to anyone in the know that Chaos will make its move eventually, and the Eldar and Phoenix Lords are waiting for it.



Klaivex said:


> Again where does it say anything about a greater plan or the long game? I will happily admit you right if this is something real. It is very possible that I missed something but I have read the codex cover to cover. And I have mention more than one thing if you actually read the thread.


The long game is an assumption. 



Klaivex said:


> I am referring to the level of technology that the DE possess. Forget that I said the black hole in a box. Make it a super nova in a jar, or a warp storm in a dora the explorer balloon. What ever it is with there magic-like technology they have the ability to make things easier for themselves. Why don't they?


To use one of your own examples here, where`s the fun in that?



Klaivex said:


> I played space marines and DE like 7 years ago but then stopped to fill my head with useless college crap and just started up again recently.
> 
> I have read most of most of the codexes and all the the DE because that's what I am playing now and i think i read the Ultramarines omnibus but i don't really remember it much.
> 
> Are you a politician or a lawyer?


He`s referring to the amount of fluff and secrets out there that Vect likely knows about. Like the c`tan buried on Mars, the necrons slowly waking, the tyranids path into the galaxy and the increasing influence of Chaos. 

There`s more to what the DE are able to do than simply what their tech will allow. 



Klaivex said:


> This is very true and has already been said but there is no account of how numerous items like these are or how many different varieties of them exist or who has them. I am betting there would be more than one and probably many different kinds even if there is only 1or2 of each. It doesn't HAVE to be a black hole as I have said. Just that level of technology.
> 
> I haven't heard of the DE destroying planets either and thats what I have been asking this whole time.


Because they simply have no practical reason to. That`s all there is to it. Think of the DE priorities...

1: Me.

2: Me.

3: My stuff.

4: Me.

5: My allies.

6: Me.

If it was simply a matter of doing what they want, I`m sure they would if it was feasible. But they want slaves, they need them to survive. Antagonising enemies and destroying potential resources is a no-no.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You accidentally placed #5 ahead of #6. :grin:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Whoops! :blush:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The DE are a race who cannot afford to take stupid risks anymore. Vect is in control of Commoragh, and he`s aiming to keep it that way. Antagonising the major players of the galaxy is not the best idea when your realm is filled with murderers all too willing to take your place given the chance.


I agree with this but i just don't think its as much of a risk as everyone might think it to be. If i am correct orcs really messed up the crimson fists home world. (i don't recall if it was destroyed or not) this didn't cause a mass hunt for all the orks in the galaxy.

The world engine destroyed a whole space marine chapter but the whole imperium isn't trying to track down every necron in the galaxy.

Even with these devastating attacks the attackers don't seem to be made a priority, whether it be because they are too numerous to deal with, can't be found, or because attention has to be directed else where to prevent a different large attack so threats are normally dealt with as they appear. The actual attackers usually don't get away but most attackers aren't as fast as the DE.



> The long game being referred to is the one of survival. They have the means to live forever, and they know a battle is coming, a big one. It is no secret to anyone in the know that Chaos will make its move eventually, and the Eldar and Phoenix Lords are waiting for it.


I am probably misinterpreting this because of the wording but I haven't read anything about the DE being overly concerned with chaos aside from slaneesh which they have found a way to deal with for the time being. I am sure it is something they think about but the archons are made out to seem like they have 50 different plans for every situation (Vect probably has 100) and a chaos attack is just another thing they will deal with when they have to.

This isn't based on any written fluff it is just an assumption based on their personality and characterization. 

I don't doubt that the eldar and Phoenix lords are concerned about that but they don't represent the dark eldar. 

But again i don't really understand what you are trying to say here




> The long game is an assumption.


Everything in this thread is an assumption because nothing has been written about it and most likely never will.



> To use one of your own examples here, where`s the fun in that?


Several possibilities:
1- It was a haemonculous who wanted to see what would happen or if he could
2- A kabal that wanted to create panic on near by planets that they plan on raiding soon. 
3- Perhaps its not just for fun and it is for weakening the defences of the system before they make their big raid. 



> He`s referring to the amount of fluff and secrets out there that Vect likely knows about. Like the c`tan buried on Mars, the necrons slowly waking, the tyranids path into the galaxy and the increasing influence of Chaos.
> 
> There`s more to what the DE are able to do than simply what their tech will allow.


Can you explain what the importance of that is to what is being discussed? I have read some of your stuff and you seem like a smart guy so I assume there is something too it. My 1am mind won't let me grasp it however.



> Because they simply have no practical reason to. That`s all there is to it. Think of the DE priorities...
> 
> 1: Me.
> 
> ...


Again I think this may just be to conflicting thought paths but I do see practical reason for it, on occasion

That is a very simple break down of the DE mind.

yes its all about the individual but its more too it then just "ME."

There is gaining power, gaining slaves, protecting yourself, Protecting your kabal so you it can help protect you.

I feel like ridding a system of the majority of its defences does all that. If their are fewer defenders you are less likely to get shot, you are more likely to collect more slaves, your increased number of slaves increases your kabals status and wealth, a wealthier kabal makes for better weapons, better weapons makes you stronger... ect.



> If it was simply a matter of doing what they want, I`m sure they would if it was feasible. But they want slaves, they need them to survive. Antagonising enemies and destroying potential resources is a no-no.


DE are probably not going to raid a Space marine fortress or Imperial battle station looking for slaves. Like everyone has said they are not stupid. So if they dart in, get a few grade A slaves and then make the rest of the defenders go away then they can harvest the b grade slaves on the remaining planets mostly worry free. And lets face it, this is taking place on a GALACTIC scale. By the time anyone can get there the DE will be long gone and I'm betting in the span of the galaxy one SM chapter or a chunk of the IG being destroyed isn't an overly uncommon occurrence. I mean really? If the Contenders chapter of SM disappeared would that cause the whole Imperium to turn their attention on the DE? I personally don't think it would.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Let me put it this way. In every faction, there is a guy who is smarter than the rest. The guy who sees everything, knows the score, knows the real deal. Sometimes a few of them.

For the Imperium, you have the High Lords, some Inquisitors, Illuminati etc. 
For Chaos, you have Abaddon, Magnus and Erebus etc.
Necrons, you have the Deceiver, who`s been playing mind games since the dawn of time. Plus who knows how many necron lords all enacting his plans.


For the Dark Eldar, Vect is that individual. He knows what`s out there, he`s no fool. He`s not going to upset the status quo if it allows a more dangerous enemy to take over is he? The Imperium is for the most part composed of ignorant fools that are easy to manipulate. If Vect was to have Fenris destroyed for instance, that`s a major player on the Imperium`s side gone. Similar can be said of many other worlds. And to destroy any lesser world would be beneath the Imperium`s notice. 

Ultimately it`s about self preservation. We`ve established that. The status quo is working. There is no need to upset that, so why would he? For the thrill? No, not with that level of risk. 

For the record, the Imperium does have the manpower to destroy Commoragh. Just like they have the means to destroy the tau empire. A galaxy full of orks, nids, necrons and heretics is the only reason they haven`t.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If it ain't broke. Don't fix it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> In the fluff they have the ability to put a black hole in a small box. a black hole can destroy a planet. I am sure they have other things that can do it as well.


A black hole would destory a lot more than just a planet (as in it would also destory the system thus rendering your "But we made everybody else scarred" argument completely moot). Given the webways tenous attachment to the physical universe (and thus gravity) it is possible that opening a black hole in the vicinity of a webway gate would be a very bad idea. Furthermore nothing suggests that the DE have multiple planet-killing weapons nor that they can reliably create these devices.



> They haven't done it in the codex. This whole tread is asking WHY?


Because it requries rare and dangerous technology and is not in the M.O. of the DE. 
/end thread



> The Imperium destroys planets all the time. Are they aiding chaos?


They provide the bulk of its troops and feeding emotions. So, yes?



Klaivex said:


> Step 1: The DE pick a planet of importance that they can easily get to (example Fenris)
> Step 2: DE pop out of a webway portal just like a normal raid
> Step 3: They kill and capture a bunch of people
> Step 4: They use some of their super tech like a black hole or giant squid portal or WHATEVER to destroy the planet
> ...


Steps 1-4 are the M.O. for all DE raids. Step 5 is dependent on advanced, rare and dangerous technology (or random squids apparently) and is not easily achievable by almost all Kabals and furthermore not generally worth the risks and costs. 



Klaivex said:


> The DE are not part of the Imperium? One or two larger attack is in no way shape or form a crusade. Its the DE doing what they do.


I have never called it a crusade. DE attacks are typically large scale affairs anyway so adding a couple more doesn't change things at all. However you are (currently) talking about destrpying planets and were (previously) talking about attacks upon important Imperial worlds. These things are not simply larger scale attacks but complete departures from tactical norms.



> I agree with this. Say your a dark eldar and you have to go on a raid. Would you want 100 guys with you or 1000 guys with you if YOU want to survive? Your chance of living is much higher the more bodies there are to block the bullets from getting to you.


I would want a 1000 guys to be sure, however I would also rather be attacking a peasent village than an Imperial stronghold. The DE use numerical superiority in all their engagements for exact this reason. 



> Desperate to survive Slaneesh. Not desperate to survive the Imperium. The Imperium is just a bunch of cave men in their eyes.


What? Survival is survival. It doesn't matter who kills them or how, if they die Slaanesh will consume their soul. Doesn't matter if its a space marine punching their face in or if they trip and drown in a puddle, Slaanesh will still rape them for eternity. 



> Slaves... lots and lots of slaves


Well yah, thats why they go on raids at all. Clearly you missed the other points were I said that you can get slaves from ANYWHERE and thus attacking important impieral worlds is unnecessary.



> Different parts of the Imperium have had reasons to go after the DE at one point or another (I'll get to one later too) but the ones i can think of off hand are the Salamanders which were basically invited in to do what they did and Kahn and he hasn't been seen for like 9000 years so things probably didn't go overly well for him because the DE haven't been wiped out. Maybe the Imperium is more logical than you give it credit for? Probably not though ha ha.


The Salamanders sent a small fleet (IIRC it was like 3-5 ships) in order to quickly recue their comrades. They succeded and dealt the DE quite a blow before extracting the bulk of their forces. Should another fleet gain access to Commoragh, which would simply require a slopply/desperate archon and a daring/intelligent Imperial commander, the damage dealt could be catastrophic (dependent obviously on the size of the fleet). The Khan disappeared in to the webway BY HIMSELF and has not been killed by the DE yet, clearly they are not the masters they believe themselves to be.



> Perhaps but again i think we may be imagining how things would go during the raid differently.


You expect a raid to involve no casulaties? The more slaves you take the larger the target you must have attacked (thats pure logic), the larger the target the more likely it is to be defended and the better those defenses are likely to be (obviously it doesn't scale linearly but still), the better defened a location is the more casulaties that are going to be taken assaulting it (again pure logic). By this train of thought we can see that the larger a raid is the more casualties it is likely to sustain. Ergo another Kabal could attack the weakened raiding force upon its return to steal their slaves. This is a demonstrated tactic of the DE and also very logical. 



> Because DE are narcissistic a-holes and would probably get off causing as much strife to the lesser beings to show them their place. I think we are thinking about this differently.


I personally feel that making a planets population disappear overnight causes more strife amongst a greater number of people than abducting a single Imperial commander regardless of how famous he is. The deeds of the DE are superstitious myth on countless worlds and those worlds don't speak of sadistic bastards who abduct commanders but faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children. Which sounds like a better ghost story to you?



> That's pretty cool. I must have missed that somewhere. Where would i find that info?


He shows up in a White Dwarf battle report (where he kills Straken) as the leader of Phil Kelly's Kabal. First in the premier issue of the new DE and I think again latter. Vorlthac or something like that. 



> The DE were on Fenris capturing new space wolfs and bringing them to Mydgarden to "play" with them. When the SW found out and tracked them down they attack and the DE vanished while laughing at them so they must not have been too worried about the might of a founding chapter. And not only did they find there mutated brother but also corrupt Russ like clones. I didn't hear about any space wolves getting redemption about it. They just pretend like it never happened? Why? Why don't they go kick some DE ass for attacking their home world and desecrating the memory of their beloved primarch?


They ran away and that indicates a lack of fear to you? The Space Wolves are busy beasts but you can rest assured that the insult has not been forgotten, they are simply bidding their time till the DE do something stupid (you know like breaking part of their own webway or attacking a major Imperial world) before they will be all over them. The DE arrogance will be there downfall as eventually an Archon will be ignorant/arrogant enough to actually follow through with what your suggesting and Commoragh will be in serious trouble (though obviously this will never happen with the stalled timeline). 



> *DE* are probably not going to raid a Space marine fortress or Imperial battle station looking for slaves. Like everyone has said they are not stupid. So if they dart in, get a few grade A slaves and then make the rest of the defenders go away then they can harvest the b grade slaves on the remaining planets mostly worry free. And lets face it, this is taking place on a GALACTIC scale. By the time anyone can get there the *DE* will be long gone and I'm betting in the span of the galaxy one *SM* chapter or a chunk of the *IG* being destroyed isn't an overly uncommon occurrence. I mean really? If the Contenders chapter of *SM* disappeared would that cause the whole Imperium to turn their attention on the *DE*? I personally don't think it would.


This my friend is a self-defeating argument. By the time anyone responds to (or even becomes aware of) your raid, your gone. Ergo destroying the defences of another planet is completely unnecessary and indeed a potentially backfiring plan (in that they may not get there in time to stop your initial attack but they probably will before you've taken all the slaves off every other world and their response is likely to be greate/better prepared).

A couple more points to finish bloating out this massive post.

Firstly, destroying a planet is not in the DE M.O. (as I and others have previously stated) so if it happens the Imperium is going to assume someone else is to blame. Someone else getting credit for your schemes (when they work) is not even close to the DE goal. 

And I'll leave you with a paraphrased quote from the Night Haunter in Lord of the Night: "Kill a hundred men and they will hate you, kill a thousand and they will que to face you. But kill a dozen and leave the bodies for all to see and they will know not hate, but fear."


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> A black hole would destory a lot more than just a planet (as in it would also destory the system thus rendering your "But we made everybody else scarred" argument completely moot). Given the webways tenous attachment to the physical universe (and thus gravity) it is possible that opening a black hole in the vicinity of a webway gate would be a very bad idea. Furthermore nothing suggests that the DE have multiple planet-killing weapons nor that they can reliably create these devices.


As I have said MULTIPLE times it doesn't matter if it is a black hole. Anything with that level of destructive technology will do. And it wasn't actually a black hole, it was the essence of a black hole. Perhaps that acts differently, who knows?




> Because it requries rare and dangerous technology and is not in the M.O. of the DE.
> /end thread


While it probably is, where does it say that it is rare and dangerous. Do you have a count of all the DE technology or know how it all works?




> Steps 1-4 are the M.O. for all DE raids. Step 5 is dependent on advanced, rare and dangerous technology (or random squids apparently) and is not easily achievable by almost all Kabals and furthermore not generally worth the risks and costs.


You added a step I think? And again you are making an assumption that you have that you can't substantiate. (the squid would be the grasping tentacles from a dark gate). Do you know all the toys each Kabal has or how much each toy costs? What if they make them themselves for free? Just because something is powerful doesn't mean its rare or expensive. Mix ammonia and bleach and you have a very nasty chemical weapon all for a couple bucks. And that is without the level of DE tech. Who knows everything they are capable of?



> I have never called it a crusade. DE attacks are typically large scale affairs anyway so adding a couple more doesn't change things at all. However you are (currently) talking about destrpying planets and were (previously) talking about attacks upon important Imperial worlds. These things are not simply larger scale attacks but complete departures from tactical norms.


Someone else called it a crusade and i must have mixed it up. My bad.

I feel like an IG base or SM home world are important Imperial worlds?

And obviously no army in the history of the world has ever changed their tactics before?



> I would want a 1000 guys to be sure, however I would also rather be attacking a peasent village than an Imperial stronghold. The DE use numerical superiority in all their engagements for exact this reason.


But would you want 1000 guys next door to an imperial stronghold or near where an imperial stronghold used to be?



> What? Survival is survival. It doesn't matter who kills them or how, if they die Slaanesh will consume their soul. Doesn't matter if its a space marine punching their face in or if they trip and drown in a puddle, Slaanesh will still rape them for eternity.


Survival is survival but do you really think that the DE, in their supreme arrogance, go into battle expecting to die against lowly humans? 



> Well yah, thats why they go on raids at all. Clearly you missed the other points were I said that you can get slaves from ANYWHERE and thus attacking important impieral worlds is unnecessary.


You can get slaves from anywhere but 
1- Where ever you get them, there is always going to be a Closest defence force
2- You can only pop out where there is a warp gate and that may be near something that will try to shoot you
3- It may just be something they want to try of find interesting at the moment, like fighting with the craftworld eldar because they found them funny. They occasionally do stuff out of the nor just for the hell of it.



> The Salamanders sent a small fleet (IIRC it was like 3-5 ships) in order to quickly recue their comrades. They succeded and dealt the DE quite a blow before extracting the bulk of their forces. Should another fleet gain access to Commoragh, which would simply require a slopply/desperate archon and a daring/intelligent Imperial commander, the damage dealt could be catastrophic (dependent obviously on the size of the fleet). The Khan disappeared in to the webway BY HIMSELF and has not been killed by the DE yet, clearly they are not the masters they believe themselves to be.


The Salamanders were invited in to do exactly what they did. 
Is Khan still alive? I hadn't heard that and i find it pretty hard to believe (and very poor storytelling on the part of GW if it is true) and i never said the DE killed him. I said things probably didn't go too well for him. There are a lot of different unfortunate things that could have happened. I was trying to get across that the webway in conjunction with the DE is not a place you really want to be so i don't think if the Imperium lost 1 planet they would just waltz through the webway to find the 2nd most webway knowledgeable race in the galaxy.



> You expect a raid to involve no casulaties? The more slaves you take the larger the target you must have attacked (thats pure logic), the larger the target the more likely it is to be defended and the better those defenses are likely to be (obviously it doesn't scale linearly but still), the better defened a location is the more casulaties that are going to be taken assaulting it (again pure logic). By this train of thought we can see that the larger a raid is the more casualties it is likely to sustain. Ergo another Kabal could attack the weakened raiding force upon its return to steal their slaves. This is a demonstrated tactic of the DE and also very logical.


I very much expect their to be casualties just like any other raid.

And your rundown is logical for a normal raid. What i was thinking is this:

There is a system of planets, each with a human population and one of those planets has a sm chapter or IG battle station. I want to raid the populated planets so I get rid of the maid defence for they system (the sm or ig) and then i raid the other planets mostly having to deal with pitchfork wielding farmers, city folk and the occasional smaller IG force. All and all I am much safer to to do what I want to do right? While sustaining fewer casualties because the main defence force is gone.

This is purely example and i am not recommending or suggesting this happen at all but if I wanted to raid the planet next door to Macragge would i take more or less casualties if the Ultramarines were NOT right there to help the planet out?




> I personally feel that making a planets population disappear overnight causes more strife amongst a greater number of people than abducting a single Imperial commander regardless of how famous he is. The deeds of the DE are superstitious myth on countless worlds and those worlds don't speak of sadistic bastards who abduct commanders but faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children. Which sounds like a better ghost story to you?
> 
> 
> > I don't believe i ever said they should abduct one imperial commander and then disappear so i don't know where this is coming from? The second ones sounds better by far which is why i support a variant of that one.
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> As I have said MULTIPLE times it doesn't matter if it is a black hole. Anything with that level of destructive technology will do. And it wasn't actually a black hole, it was the essence of a black hole. Perhaps that acts differently, who knows?


You are now creating mythical technology with no supporting bais in canon. Obviously I cannot argue against this as the device will work however you need it to.



> While it probably is, where does it say that it is rare and dangerous. Do you have a count of all the DE technology or know how it all works?


Based upon an understanding (admittedly basic) about how black holes work I would certainly say any tech working with one would be quite risky. Furthermore the riskier the tech or the more powerful it is the rarer it will be. Supply and demand, clearly not everyone wants to play with the death-machine (on account of the potential for black holes) so they wouldn't make very many of them. Indeed this may be a peice of technology the DE are no longer (or never were, they are pirates) making. 



> Do you know all the toys each Kabal has or how much each toy costs? What if they make them themselves for free? Just because something is powerful doesn't mean its rare or expensive. Mix ammonia and bleach and you have a very nasty chemical weapon all for a couple bucks. And that is without the level of DE tech. Who knows everything they are capable of?


Having access to the last two DE codexes and pretty much every BL story involving them means that I have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of all the toys the DE are _stated_ to have. If you wish to invent new toys, be my guest, but don't come on a fluff forum arguing about how your new toy changes the way the entire race should work. 

Power doesn't equate to rareness but danger does. And the DE are an economic race, their currency just isn't money. You can't build anything for free, even if you control all the currency and materials (which no DE does, not even Vect).




> I feel like an IG base or SM home world are important Imperial worlds?


Important to the Imperium? No. Unless its like Cadia or something the Imperium could easily and happily lose such a planet content in the knowledge they'll get a new one soon.



> And obviously no army in the history of the world has ever changed their tactics before?


Of course not. Armies often change their tactics when faced with new challenges or when their old ones stop working. Has this happened to the DE?



> But would you want 1000 guys next door to an imperial stronghold or near where an imperial stronghold used to be?


I'd rather not be involved in taking out the stronghold. Thats work for lesser beings. 



> Survival is survival but do you really think that the DE, in their supreme arrogance, go into battle expecting to die against lowly humans?


To survive a DE _must_ expect everything, no matter how unlikely. The DE aren't just arrogant they're paranoid. What if a rival has tipped of the humans? Or given them a special death-ray to kill your forces with? What if Orks fall from the sky or the ground turns into zombies? Unlikely, sure but thats why its called Crazy Prepared.



> You can get slaves from anywhere but
> 1- Where ever you get them, there is always going to be a Closest defence force
> 2- You can only pop out where there is a warp gate and that may be near something that will try to shoot you
> 3- It may just be something they want to try of find interesting at the moment, like fighting with the craftworld eldar because they found them funny. They occasionally do stuff out of the nor just for the hell of it.


1) They're sure is, so time your attack accordingly. Bank robbers do this all the time, anticpating police response times. 
2) So chose one further away, bring a cloaked spaceship and go from there. You think the DE are limited to attacking only those planets with permenant, stable gates? That's verifiably not the case.
3) That's fair but there are _always_ ways around any type of defense if you have the patience, intelligence and resources to get around them. Only a mon-keigh would suggest charging a wall to get through it.



> The Salamanders were invited in to do exactly what they did.


So? The DE left a door open and a beacon on. Easily repeatable circumstances even by accident. 



> Is Khan still alive? I hadn't heard that and i find it pretty hard to believe (and very poor storytelling on the part of GW if it is true) and i never said the DE killed him. I said things probably didn't go too well for him. There are a lot of different unfortunate things that could have happened. I was trying to get across that the webway in conjunction with the DE is not a place you really want to be so i don't think if the Imperium lost 1 planet they would just waltz through the webway to find the 2nd most webway knowledgeable race in the galaxy.


Khan's fate has never been confirmed either way, as such we cannot assume his demise or comment on his fate. 

The DE are prey to exactly the kind of dangerous circumstances you mention. I will repeat, they are NOT masters of the webway.



> There is a system of planets, each with a human population and one of those planets has a sm chapter or IG battle station. I want to raid the populated planets so I get rid of the maid defence for they system (the sm or ig) and then i raid the other planets mostly having to deal with pitchfork wielding farmers, city folk and the occasional smaller IG force. All and all I am much safer to to do what I want to do right? While sustaining fewer casualties because the main defence force is gone.


How long does it take to get a singal from one world to the next? Using astropaths is a confusing and far from certain means so we can estimate half a day (minimum) for another planet to resceive, tranlate and begin a response to such a message. The soldiers must then mobilize. If we take marines and assume theres a battle force all ready to go this time is negligable. Next is travel. As far as I can tell warp travel in a system is highly dangerous and quite uncommon so thats out and the marines will be relying on conventional drives (and thus limited to quite a slow speed). Several days latter the marines arrive and frankly if your still there you deserve the @$$-whoopping you're about to receive. So you're likely gone and now the marines are out of position for your next attack.

So actually your force (which attacked the marines first) took quite a few more casulaties than mine did. Plus I made the Marines look like idiots chasing their tails. 



> This is purely example and i am not recommending or suggesting this happen at all but if I wanted to raid the planet next door to Macragge would i take more or less casualties if the Ultramarines were NOT right there to help the planet out?


Of course, so bait them with a greenskin attack on some other world or just wait till their not home. If it's truely urgent than just rush it and hope you succed before they arrive (see above for estimates on time). Attacking the marines is exactly the _last_ thing you want to do, which is why your coming up with this scheme in the first place. Circular and self-defeating plan there. 



> I don't believe i ever said they should abduct one imperial commander and then disappear so i don't know where this is coming from?


You did in fact, when you stated the question (paraphrased for lack of recall) "Which would be more fun, torturing an imperial commander or an agri-world?" 



> Now which of these sounds better:
> faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children out from under your noses while your happless defenders are blissfully unaware.
> or
> faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children after fighting a battle and revealing themselves to be mortal, allowing them to be THAT much more sadistic because they can take a few extra moments to do what they want to you without having to worry about an immediate response?


Fixed those for you. As a fan of darkness and terror I'm gonna have to go with the first one.



> Again do you have any citation that the space wolves are just waiting for the right time to strike? That seems very unspace wolf like to me. I feel like they would see a mutilated clone of their daddy and get into a drunken fit and do something reckless if they were going to do anything.


Do you have a citation for stating that they forgot about the incident? Space Wolves are _predators _and a predator knows how to blend the fury of the beast with the patience of the hunter. Drunken rages having little (if anything) to do with it.



> If you were going to kidnap someone (which i do not support ftr) would you choose someone who lived right next to the FBI? But what if that is the only person you wanted to kidnap for whatever reason (that's where your wwp was) would you:
> A- risk it
> B- give up
> C- get rid of the threat with a piece of technology that may or may not be rare and dangerous and then do your thing because the closest defence is the police station 10 miles away?


D- make a solid plan with decent research. Cut the phone lines, slip in at night (wearing glvoes and a mask), drug the vic and take them out the back to my waiting blacked-out car. 

Attacking the FBI is _really _dumb. The fact that you think that is more practical and easier than my plan (which involves readily available items and not a magic peice of macguffin) actually somewhat saddens me. Though I do feel better knowing that the risk of you planning a succesful caper is quite low.



> I agree with this 100% but I am thinking of it on a system wide scale, not just one city or something. Kill one planet, leave several more bloodied, the whole system will be in terror.


Acutally my quote was meant to apply to a system wide scale, the gist was this. Destoy one world, killing thousands if not millions of people. And they will cue to face you. Cause villages/cities to vanish, killing at most a few hundred people and they will feel not hatred but fear. The more you kill the more their fear turns to hate. 



> Here is a quote for you, "You think to challenge me pitiful human? I, the bane of empires, the father of pain? Let me educate you; I need a new pet..."
> Archon K'ishak
> Does that sound like he is quaking in his boots that the Imperium might get mad at him for doing anything?


Nope, sounds to me like a deluded fool trying to big-up himself in front of a slave. The Imperium is _the_ mightiest faction thinking otherwise is pure foolishness. Sure its ruled by the mon-keigh (I keep wanting to say Mud People but thats a different story) but even monkeys can be dangerous in numbers. He is not afraid of _one_ man, that in no way shows his opinions of the Imperium as a whole.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> You are now creating mythical technology with no supporting bais in canon. Obviously I cannot argue against this as the device will work however you need it to.


I haven't created anything but every piece of technology can not be defined in the codex rule book and BL stories so there is a 100% chance there would be stuff that hasn't been mentioned. However powerful or rare any of that stuff is is a matter of imagination at this point (which the whole universe is as well).



> Based upon an understanding (admittedly basic) about how black holes work I would certainly say any tech working with one would be quite risky. Furthermore the riskier the tech or the more powerful it is the rarer it will be. Supply and demand, clearly not everyone wants to play with the death-machine (on account of the potential for black holes) so they wouldn't make very many of them. Indeed this may be a peice of technology the DE are no longer (or never were, they are pirates) making.


Just because black holes are "immense' to human minds and even our best future technology would make them near impossible to contain, DE weapons have been described as near magic. Magic (or near magic) can make things that are completely impossible, possible because it defies natural law (or seems to for "near magic").

It is impossible to know how these weapons would be created with human level technology. For DE it could be as simple as opening a box and it sucks it in or it could be as complicated as deconstructing it atom by atom and reconstructing it in a box like a ship in a jar (i think that would kind of be awesome personally) but as it isn't explained the creation of such devices can not be argued. We just don't know enough about it. 



> Having access to the last two DE codexes and pretty much every BL story involving them means that I have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of all the toys the DE are _stated_ to have. If you wish to invent new toys, be my guest, but don't come on a fluff forum arguing about how your new toy changes the way the entire race should work.


I'll repeat myself here:
Every piece of technology can not be defined in the codex rule book and BL stories so there is a 100% chance there would be stuff that hasn't been mentioned. However powerful or rare any of that stuff is is a matter of imagination at this point (which the whole universe is as well).


> Power doesn't equate to rareness but danger does. And the DE are an economic race, their currency just isn't money. You can't build anything for free, even if you control all the currency and materials (which no DE does, not even Vect).


I agree that more dangerous items are more rare than super dangerous weapons. Their are far more shot guns than their are A-bombs but there is more than 1 Atom bomb in the world and their are other weapons that are just as dangerous if not more so like weaponized anthrax. Every race is going to have more than one "super weapon' and with the DE being as greedy and paranoid as they are they are more than likely going to horde as many of these as possible no matter the cost.



> Important to the Imperium? No. Unless its like Cadia or something the Imperium could easily and happily lose such a planet content in the knowledge they'll get a new one soon.


But they are Important to the system and now we know that the DE could do as I suggested without incurring the wrath of the Imperium.



> Of course not. Armies often change their tactics when faced with new challenges or when their old ones stop working. Has this happened to the DE?


Or when trying to achieve different goals. Or if you're a near immortal race of hedonistic space pirates, you want to try something new.




> I'd rather not be involved in taking out the stronghold. Thats work for lesser beings.


Like wracks or grotesques?



> To survive a DE _must_ expect everything, no matter how unlikely. The DE aren't just arrogant they're paranoid. What if a rival has tipped of the humans? Or given them a special death-ray to kill your forces with? What if Orks fall from the sky or the ground turns into zombies? Unlikely, sure but thats why its called Crazy Prepared.


Ok? So they are prepared for everything. I don't think we disagree on that?



> 1) They're sure is, so time your attack accordingly. Bank robbers do this all the time, anticpating police response times.
> 2) So chose one further away, bring a cloaked spaceship and go from there. You think the DE are limited to attacking only those planets with permenant, stable gates? That's verifiably not the case.
> 3) That's fair but there are _always_ ways around any type of defense if you have the patience, intelligence and resources to get around them. Only a mon-keigh would suggest charging a wall to get through it.


1- Or you kill the defenders. On of my childhood best friends fathers (police officer) was killed during a bank robbery so obviously that happens too.
2-I never said they had to attack the planet that had the gate on it but to get to a planet to rad you have to pass through that gate. What if the map of the attack is like this:
(warp gate)---> (imperial defenders)---> (planet to raid)
3- I agree that their are multiple ways to deal with it but DE, especially Haemonculi, like things to be as easy for them as possible. If ridding the whole area of its most staunched defenders meant giving them a WMD in a gift box and then going about your slave raid I feel like that would be a viable option. Other wise you have to creep by, trying to be as quiet as possible, while worrying, as you said, that someone ratted you out.



> So? The DE left a door open and a beacon on. Easily repeatable circumstances even by accident.


Is their any evidence of DE making mistakes? I am sure it has to happens but it kind of goes against their scheming nature to think every little detail out. I feel like a mistake of this magnitude would probably never happen. I feel a common accident would be you accidentally killed the slave before you skinned him.



> Khan's fate has never been confirmed either way, as such we cannot assume his demise or comment on his fate.


Agreed.


> The DE are prey to exactly the kind of dangerous circumstances you mention. I will repeat, they are NOT masters of the webway.


That's why i didn't say they are masters of the webway. I said they are the 2nd most knowledgeable. Things could happen to them but the chances are lower than compared to other races.




> How long does it take to get a singal from one world to the next? Using astropaths is a confusing and far from certain means so we can estimate half a day (minimum) for another planet to resceive, tranlate and begin a response to such a message. The soldiers must then mobilize. If we take marines and assume theres a battle force all ready to go this time is negligable. Next is travel. As far as I can tell warp travel in a system is highly dangerous and quite uncommon so thats out and the marines will be relying on conventional drives (and thus limited to quite a slow speed). Several days latter the marines arrive and frankly if your still there you deserve the @$$-whoopping you're about to receive. So you're likely gone and now the marines are out of position for your next attack.


First off I'll go back to something you said. What if you got ratted out? Then maybe you would have an hour or two before the hammer drops. What if they knew someone ratted them out and wanted to complete the raid in spite of that just to rub it in their face? what if they wanted to raid more than one planet or go on safari?

I'm not saying they should do this every single time but there certainly are circumstances where this would be the best choice of action.



> So actually your force (which attacked the marines first) took quite a few more casulaties than mine did. Plus I made the Marines look like idiots chasing their tails.


I'd like to see your math on this one.
My guys infiltrate the planet and snatch up some slaves just like they did on fenris then instead of waiting to be found out destroy the world and all the defenders then go off to raid 5 other worlds in relative comfort. so minimal casualties and lots of slaves.

Your force sneaks past the defenders and raids one planet setting off the alarm so they get fewer slaves and no big SM that can withstand years and years of torture or be sold to beast masters to improve your standing to wych cults.



> Of course, so bait them with a greenskin attack on some other world or just wait till their not home. If it's truely urgent than just rush it and hope you succed before they arrive (see above for estimates on time). Attacking the marines is exactly the _last_ thing you want to do, which is why your coming up with this scheme in the first place. Circular and self-defeating plan there.


In what way is this circular and self defeating?
destroy marines--> raid planet--> go home.



> You did in fact, when you stated the question (paraphrased for lack of recall) "Which would be more fun, torturing an imperial commander or an agri-world?"


I don't recall saying that so perhaps you misread that or perhaps i made a typo.
Maybe if i did say that I meant imperial comander of agri-world farmer. In that case i would go for the imperial. You can get a lot more torture into someone who is better equipped to withstand it or sell the warrior to the whyches. The stronger the slave the more valuable it is.



> Now which of these sounds better:
> faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children out from under your noses while your happless defenders are blissfully unaware.
> or
> faceless fiends that come with the setting of the sun to steal your children after destroying your only possible hope of survival and knowing you are next but not knowing when allowing them to be THAT much more sadistic because they can take a few extra moments to do what they want to you without having to worry about an immediate response?


It is like if i said I am going to kick you in the crotch but I don't tell you when. Any little movement i make is going to make you flinch thinking its your time. If i just pop out from behind a wall and swing away its over so fast you don't even have time to feel fear.



> Do you have a citation for stating that they forgot about the incident? Space Wolves are _predators _and a predator knows how to blend the fury of the beast with the patience of the hunter. Drunken rages having little (if anything) to do with it.


I do not which i never said they forgot about it. They act like it never happened but I am sure it eats at the back of their mind.

If you think that you don't understand ecosystems or predators at all. If you stick a fox in a chicken coup it wont restrain itself. It will kill EVERYTHING. And animals like dolphins, chimps, owls...ect will kill just for the sheer fun of it (or the animal equivalent of enjoyment to avoid anthropomorphism) Predators, specifically mammalian predators are hardwired to do what their bodies are designed to do. (Who knew a degree in zoo animal technology would come in handy in a DE discussion ha ha)





> D- make a solid plan with decent research. Cut the phone lines, slip in at night (wearing glvoes and a mask), drug the vic and take them out the back to my waiting blacked-out car.
> 
> Attacking the FBI is _really _dumb. The fact that you think that is more practical and easier than my plan (which involves readily available items and not a magic peice of macguffin) actually somewhat saddens me. Though I do feel better knowing that the risk of you planning a succesful caper is quite low.


Wow. I was not being serious. If the FBI was destroyed the wife and I wouldn't be able to watch Criminal Minds. Its an analogy. If you destroy that which can prevent you from reach your objective you have a much higher probability of reach said objective.



> Acutally my quote was meant to apply to a system wide scale, the gist was this. Destoy one world, killing thousands if not millions of people. And they will cue to face you. Cause villages/cities to vanish, killing at most a few hundred people and they will feel not hatred but fear. The more you kill the more their fear turns to hate.


Fear does not turn into hate. They certainly mix at a point but the fear doesn't go away. Look at any genocide in history. The jews definetly hated the nazis but they still hid from them out of fear of dieing.




> Nope, sounds to me like a deluded fool trying to big-up himself in front of a slave. The Imperium is _the_ mightiest faction thinking otherwise is pure foolishness. Sure its ruled by the mon-keigh (I keep wanting to say Mud People but thats a different story) but even monkeys can be dangerous in numbers. He is not afraid of _one_ man, that in no way shows his opinions of the Imperium as a whole.


Oh its definetly delusional! But if your race is insane enough to create a chaos god you have to be a bit delusional.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

And can I say that while I am enjoying this, I am worried about getting CTS ha ha. These posts just keep getting longer and longer.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Why worry about Vect in a city that has Lelith Hesperax, the most fine bad-ass babe in 40k. Like an evil Xena.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Abomination said:


> Why worry about Vect in a city that has Lelith Hesperax, the most fine bad-ass babe in 40k. Like an evil Xena.


Ah! See! Another fine idea! Instead of dropping of some super weapon just put naked Lelith in an Imperial battle station and she can kill everybody while they are trying to take their pants off.:laugh:


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

*How we do.*

Wow, alot of DE PoWnage! in this thread. First off, each codex is designed to make its faction look as badass as possible. So of course Vect, being the defacto "leader", is quite powerful. On Commoragh I am not sure how you would deal with this guy. Though, on the table top, I have seen him get perforated by a Fire Warrior squad. 

Dark Eldar are corsairs and pirates. In our own history similar to the Barbary Pirates. They raid, they do not engage in full scale wars; because they lose full scale wars. While they have great technology. They don't have the personnel to engage in full scale war. 

Most of the thread you spend championing DE tech. While their ability to drop battleships, create black holes, and seal the webway is cool; they mean next to nothing in a universe with: Black Stone Fortresses, Cyclonic Torpedoes, Vortex Grenades, Shokk Attack Guns, Alpha + level psykers, Daemons, Enslavers, along with countless other things.

But, I understand where you're coming from. I myself am a big fan of my faction. So, let's take your scenario of the DE getting the Imperium's attention. The first obstacle will actually be finding Comorragh. Nothing that can't be cured by making it top priority for the Ordo Xenos. Hell, we've had at least one Inquisitor in the Black Library; Commoragh can't be that far off! That would be the hardest part, because once we do find you, it's over. See for all your tech and your tricks you can't fight a siege. Wars of attrition just don't suit you guys. 

Of course now the Imperial Navy has to fight its' way to you. No problem you can knock some of them out. But, compared to you the Imperium can replace its' losses relatively quickly. Not to mention the aid of the Astartes in this venture as well. Eventually we will win out, because you have to stop your resource collecting in order to defend your faction. We don't have that restriction. So eventually we would gain access to your planet. 


If we don't just burn your planet to a cinder; with our own variety of way's of doing so. We'll send the troops in, to make sure we do a thorough job. First, the Astartes will lead the way; and I can't imagine a lack of volunteers. Not for the chance to drive the Eldar to the brink a second time. I imagine the Space Wolves and Whites Scars will have significant interest. At any rate they'll do their thing; blowing up and attacking important shit. Destroying your vehicles with mass bolter fire. Beating you to death with their armoured fist's. All this Setting up the way for the mass troop drops. This is where the real variety comes in. 

Aerospace operations are launched. Hundreds of fighter escorts and bombers make their way to the surface. Imperial Navy Thunderbolts, Lightnings and Marauders tangle with enemy interceptors. Though you're far superior pilots there are just too many of us; the losses begin to tell. Elysians start making Valkyrie grav jumps. As Cadians sit sternly in troop transports crashing through the atmosphere. Savlar Chem Dogs cycle their own combat drugs through re-breathers; after all they were sent in before the more disciplined troops. Behind them a troop ship slams down disgorging Mordian Iron Guard. They make disciplined firing lines as many fall to shuriken fire. The battle lines are being drawn. 

Armour transports begin to show up. The initial wave loaded with Mordian Hydras. They fire as they disembark, punching aircraft and transports out of the skies. Behind them Sentinels with Multi Lasers jockey to the flanks of the transports. Then the Leman Russes arrive, unleashing the roar of their battle cannons. But, these aren't the only armoured monster at our disposal. Pretty soon larger weapons are unleashed.

The Mechanicus is supplicating the machine spirits on countless esoteric war machines. For instance, Titans of different variations, and maybe an Ordinatus. With weapons that can obliterate cities, on the other side of the world. Though they are waiting on the skies to be more secure. As their wards are a bit more rare than your average tank. Along side these holy war machines the troops of the Legio Cybernetica march. 

The Imperium fights a war like this every single day; what is one more? Not to mention this is just the spear head. 

It is not in the interest of the DE to instigate their own obliteration. It would just marginalize an already marginal power. 

unish:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Imperators Warden said:


> Dark Eldar are corsairs and pirates. In our own history similar to the Barbary Pirates. They raid, they do not engage in full scale wars; because they lose full scale wars. While they have great technology. They don't have the personnel to engage in full scale war.


I have not suggested a full scale war against the Imperium. I said they attack one system and destroy one planet so their attack on that system goes more smoothly.

If we are equating it to actual pirates it works the same way. Did they just sail into the harbor, run out and grab folk and leave? Yes. Is that the only way they did things? No.

They had cannons on their ship that they used to blast the heck out of defended areas so they could launch their raid against weakened defenders while the citizens were running around in a panic. It is that but on a solar system sized scale. I don't think that is an unreasonable strategy.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

Destroy a planet? As in death star destroy or just kill the defenders? I am sure they have the ability to Death Star it. Though I am not sure how the DE go about it. 

As for the real world comparison; an assault on an undefended harbour may work. But, I've been to St. Augustine, there is an old Spanish Fort overlooking it. It had its' own cannon's which would fire back, and a garrison. It is not the same thing as raiding some back water port. The strategy you're suggesting, while do-able, is far more risky than and possibly not as rewarding as business as usual. 

In 40k terms it is like attacking Vostroya, instead of the outlying planets. It is the bulwark of the system. For instance, you have Imperial Guard Regiment raising there, and it is a partial Forgeworld I believe. It is bound to be more heavily defended. While planets further away from this area are bound to be less defended. Therefore easier to pillage. 

I mean what you are talking about is isolation of the prey. Which is standard DE stuff. They knock out the communications, maybe some defenses. Then swoop in a snatch the kids and grannies.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Imperators Warden said:


> Destroy a planet? As in death star destroy or just kill the defenders? I am sure they have the ability to Death Star it. Though I am not sure how the DE go about it.


Death star destroy it... That's what basically this whole thread has been about?



> As for the real world comparison; an assault on an undefended harbour may work. But, I've been to St. Augustine, there is an old Spanish Fort overlooking it. It had its' own cannon's which would fire back, and a garrison. It is not the same thing as raiding some back water port. The strategy you're suggesting, while do-able, is far more risky than and possibly not as rewarding as business as usual.


That's cool. I have been to one as well though the name escapes me at the moment. I like old forts.

But back to the topic...

I agree with you if the DE were going cannon to cannon they would be in a bit of trouble. But this whole thread has been about their super crazy magic-technology.

Its like if historical pirates made a surprise attack on the fort at St. Augustine with a nuke while the defenders just had black powder cannons and muskets. Who is going to win that fight very very quickly?



> I mean what you are talking about is isolation of the prey. Which is standard DE stuff. They knock out the communications, maybe some defenses. Then swoop in a snatch the kids and grannies.


The DE may knock out communications and the like but they still have to act quickly to get out of there before the enemy can retaliate. But if the enemy is gone they would be able to collect far more slaves with fewer casualties and enjoy themselves more.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I have not suggested a full scale war against the Imperium. I said they attack one system and destroy one planet so their attack on that system goes more smoothly.
> 
> If we are equating it to actual pirates it works the same way. Did they just sail into the harbor, run out and grab folk and leave? Yes. Is that the only way they did things? No.
> 
> They had cannons on their ship that they used to blast the heck out of defended areas so they could launch their raid against weakened defenders while the citizens were running around in a panic. It is that but on a solar system sized scale. I don't think that is an unreasonable strategy.


Actually, that's a common misconception with most real life pirates. Typically, pirates would go after lone merchant ships while not actually flying their colors allowing them to sail up to the without the crew of the merchant ship panicking and either trying to run or attack as they would just assume that the pirate vessel was just another merchant vessel. Once they were close enough, the pirates would then fly their colors while most of the crew would be armed and on deck, yelling and howling in a bid to scare the other crew into surrendering without a fight. The truth is, pirates preferred to intimidate and scare their targets rather than fight for several reasons.

A) They risk damaging the other ship and the cargo they want to loot. If they sink the vessel before looting it then they get nothing.
B) They risk damage to their own ship which is much worse for them than their targets. A merchant vessel can rather easily return to a local port and receive repairs there where as pirates have to be much more careful about where they make port.
C) It's one thing to bloodlessly steal from ships but it's entirely different if they start attacking ships, killing members of the crew and sinking vessels. That kind of stuff is what draws in a response from the local Navy the fastest.

The fiction paints only a part of the true nature of real life pirates. We see pirates as rogues that loot and pillage from ships and ports without fear, that battle with Navy warships and their crews when the truth is that they aren't quite like that. They attack targets that are the least likely to fight back and easiest to scare into submission while avoiding unnecessary killing. Why they would generally avoid excessive killing and attacking ports is because when they are just stealing from ships they are a nuisance to the authorities but when they start acting out like that, they became a threat. And that's when the authorities begin to hunt the pirates.

The DE are not that dissimilar from the pirates of real life. They don't like to get into serious fights for almost the same reasons.

A) Fighting means killing potential slaves. Why waste in fighting what you can take with careful planning.
B) Paranoia. When an Archon takes the field of battle, they always must be on guard to threats both without and within. The middle of a battle is a perfect place to assassinate an Archon and take his place. It's not going to happen every battle, but you don't get to where the Archon is by taking chances if you can help it.
C) Raiding forces tend to be small, mobile groups as they tend to want to fill their holds with as much as they can while splitting the spoils as few ways as possible. Which means they are going to want to avoid confront more serious threats.

If you read some of the DE attacks in BL novels, they all tend to occur in systems that are already under attack, allowing them to attack civilian towns and cities far from the fighting with the least amount of defenders, or carefully sabotage things like communications and major means travel on the planet before launching night time raids. To the DE, the most successful raids are those that happen so fast and so stealthily that most of their slaves don't realize what is happening until they are already captured and screaming the holds of DE vessels.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I haven't created anything but every piece of technology can not be defined in the codex rule book and BL stories so there is a 100% chance there would be stuff that hasn't been mentioned. However powerful or rare any of that stuff is is a matter of imagination at this point (which the whole universe is as well).


Sure all the tech can't be mentioned in BL books or the codex but by taking pieces of tech NOT mentioned to be had by the DE you completely destroy any attempt at rational logical debate. Inventing facts not supported by evidence is not a good way to back a position.



> Just because black holes are "immense' to human minds and even our best future technology would make them near impossible to contain, DE weapons have been described as near magic. Magic (or near magic) can make things that are completely impossible, possible because it defies natural law (or seems to for "near magic").


The laws of gravity indicate that it would be difficult for anyone, impossible for us, but even with 'magic' tech it would be quite difficult given that 40k does at least use pseudo-science and not outright magic.



> It is impossible to know how these weapons would be created with human level technology. For DE it could be as simple as opening a box and it sucks it in or it could be as complicated as deconstructing it atom by atom and reconstructing it in a box like a ship in a jar (i think that would kind of be awesome personally) but as it isn't explained the creation of such devices can not be argued. We just don't know enough about it.


The existence of such devices isn't stated so obviously their construction isn't explained. Regardless, in order to overcome such things as the immense gravity and event-horizon would require advanced technology (as in advanced beyond human understanding). The DE are smart but they aren't universally _that_ smart so the construction of such a device would require some of their brighter minds and some serious work (which the DE don`t like) to create each and every device and likely also to activate them. 



> I agree that more dangerous items are more rare than super dangerous weapons. Their are far more shot guns than their are A-bombs but there is more than 1 Atom bomb in the world and their are other weapons that are just as dangerous if not more so like weaponized anthrax. Every race is going to have more than one "super weapon' and with the DE being as greedy and paranoid as they are they are more than likely going to horde as many of these as possible no matter the cost.


How many mythical doom-machines do we have? Because your not talking about the DE equivalent to an atom-bomb (as in a rare but completely verified piece of tech), your talking about a completely fictional (as in invented by you) technology which we have no evidence of its existence.



> But they are Important to the system and now we know that the DE could do as I suggested without incurring the wrath of the Imperium.


Okay? I thought (based on what you had previously said) that we were talking about worlds important to the Imperium and not minor worlds like a local PDF base.



> Or when trying to achieve different goals. Or if you're a near immortal race of hedonistic space pirates, you want to try something new.


 Your goals are still the same. Change for changes sake is not a DE thing and is an excellent way to get yourself killed. 



> Like wracks or grotesques?


Like Orks or humans. Sure wracks and grotesques would work but that's still a loss of your own resources (as you probably had to pay the haemonculus quite a bit).



> Ok? So they are prepared for everything. I don't think we disagree on that?


You completely missed the point of that statement. You stated that a DE would be willing to fight a human because they would consider it unlikely that they would die in such a fight. I argued that the DE prepare for everything regardless of how unlikely it was and that thus they would rather not take any such risks. You then agreed with me so... yah.



> 1- Or you kill the defenders. On of my childhood best friends fathers (police officer) was killed during a bank robbery so obviously that happens too.


Generally speaking killing people is a last resort in the commission of most crimes. It still happens occasionally (and its very sad when it does) but it rarely the goal of any such operation.



> 2-I never said they had to attack the planet that had the gate on it but to get to a planet to rad you have to pass through that gate. What if the map of the attack is like this:
> (warp gate)---> (imperial defenders)---> (planet to raid)


So use a different gate, one that doesn't require you to pass by an Imperial defense area. Space is 3-D and quite large so you should never be required to pass by any area you don't want to.



> 3- I agree that their are multiple ways to deal with it but DE, especially Haemonculi, like things to be as easy for them as possible. If ridding the whole area of its most staunched defenders meant giving them a WMD in a gift box and then going about your slave raid I feel like that would be a viable option. Other wise you have to creep by, trying to be as quiet as possible, while worrying, as you said, that someone ratted you out.


If it meant giving them a gift box than sure that would be easy. But this is 40k, nothing is ever that easy. You would likely have to delve into the heart of the defenses and position the device properly. Such an act is far more difficult to carry out than a speed raid.



> Is their any evidence of DE making mistakes? I am sure it has to happens but it kind of goes against their scheming nature to think every little detail out. I feel like a mistake of this magnitude would probably never happen. I feel a common accident would be you accidentally killed the slave before you skinned him.


_Fear the Alien_ gives us a nice example of a DE miscalculating the power of a foe and losing his Kabal for it. And the DE Codex page 22 gives us the tale of Waagh Zoggit and how they snuck into Commoragh, surprising the DE, and then proceeded to rampage through the streets as the DE schemed against themselves more than they fought the enemy. 



> First off I'll go back to something you said. What if you got ratted out? Then maybe you would have an hour or two before the hammer drops. What if they knew someone ratted them out and wanted to complete the raid in spite of that just to rub it in their face? what if they wanted to raid more than one planet or go on safari?


Then I still have two hours to pull of the raid. What happens if your attack gets rated out? Then your walking into hell, directly in, and hells waiting for you. If I knew I'd been rated out I'd switch targets, make both groups look like idiots. My initial layout included plans for hitting multiple targets. And why the hell would I want to go on safari?



> I'm not saying they should do this every single time but there certainly are circumstances where this would be the best choice of action.


You asked (initially) why this type of attack was not a common part of DE strategy. I have answered that question. I will not disagree that there might be times where this was the best course of action, however these times would be rare and thus it would not be a common strategy. 



> I'd like to see your math on this one.
> My guys infiltrate the planet and snatch up some slaves just like they did on fenris then instead of waiting to be found out destroy the world and all the defenders then go off to raid 5 other worlds in relative comfort. so minimal casualties and lots of slaves.


Your attack on the planets defenders would be dangerous and involve plenty of casualties. Unless of course your magical planet-destroying macguffin is capable of being operated invisibly from deep space and takes no charge up time (which it probably can sense you made it up), in which case this entire debate is void and I will concede that the DE should make as much use of this device as they can.:suicide: 



> Your force sneaks past the defenders and raids one planet setting off the alarm so they get fewer slaves and no big SM that can withstand years and years of torture or be sold to beast masters to improve your standing to wych cults.


I have several days to raid the planet, which is more than enough time to get everyone off. I then can hit all of the other planets. Sure I don't get any marines, but I also don't suffer a single casualty or have to worry about transporting and securing those highly dangerous prisoners (see _Dark Disciple _IIRC, could be one of the others, for an example of the dangers involved). 



> In what way is this circular and self defeating?
> destroy marines--> raid planet--> go home.


This is the basis for your argument. You don't want to fight the highly dangerous defenders; so in order to avoid this fight (which would occur on your terms at the location of your choice) you attack them directly (at their home). Do you see how that's circular and self-defeating?



> I don't recall saying that so perhaps you misread that or perhaps i made a typo.





> Wouldn't a haemonculi like to try out a new toy on a nice famous target instead of a lowly agri world?


Your worlds, Post #38 of this forum. Was my interpretation that you thought a single target to be preferred to a world wrong?



> It is like if i said I am going to kick you in the crotch but I don't tell you when. Any little movement i make is going to make you flinch thinking its your time. If i just pop out from behind a wall and swing away its over so fast you don't even have time to feel fear.


A better example would be if I heard of someone else getting kicked in the crotch so hard he collapsed and then heard it would happen to me next. I would be terrified of everything and everyone. Versus if I knew it would be you I would just kick you first. See the difference? 

A man can be fought, he can be hurt and made to bleed. A shadow, a myth, these things cannot be fought, they are immortal, eternal and all-powerful. You attack the defenses and show yourself to be a man and the villagers will not fear you. They will know they can make you bleed, they will know they can kill you; because it's been done before. 



> If you think that you don't understand ecosystems or predators at all. If you stick a fox in a chicken coup it wont restrain itself. It will kill EVERYTHING. And animals like dolphins, chimps, owls...ect will kill just for the sheer fun of it (or the animal equivalent of enjoyment to avoid anthropomorphism) Predators, specifically mammalian predators are hardwired to do what their bodies are designed to do. (Who knew a degree in zoo animal technology would come in handy in a DE discussion ha ha)


Explain to me then the nature of a wolf-pack hunt? Do they charge in and slaughter all the caribou? No, they wait patiently and watch, waiting for a weakened member to separate from the herd. They have been known to trail a herd for days before striking. That is what the Space Wolves are doing, waiting for a straggler to leave a door open. 



> Its an analogy. If you destroy that which can prevent you from reach your objective you have a much higher probability of reach said objective.


My response was also an analogy. Careful planning can overcome almost any obstacle. The bases do _not_ prevent you from reaching your objective or reaching your goal, so long as you plan for it.



> Fear does not turn into hate. They certainly mix at a point but the fear doesn't go away. Look at any genocide in history. The jews definetly hated the nazis but they still hid from them out of fear of dieing.


Hate comes to mask all other emotions. After a certain point it will feed off your fear. It is a careful psychological balance to maintain a populace in constant fear without allowing it to turn to hate. In your example I would say that the jews feared the nazis more than they hated them. But if you look at places where the jews were free from the fear of that prosecution (such as jewish soldiers in other nations armies) there is evidence of a quite a lot of hate. 



> Oh its definetly delusional! But if your race is insane enough to create a chaos god you have to be a bit delusional.


The DE are not insane. They are self-obsessed and hedonistic. There is a world of difference between the two.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually, that's a common misconception with most real life pirates. Typically, pirates would go after lone merchant ships while not actually flying their colors allowing them to sail up to the without the crew of the merchant ship panicking and either trying to run or attack as they would just assume that the pirate vessel was just another merchant vessel. Once they were close enough, the pirates would then fly their colors while most of the crew would be armed and on deck, yelling and howling in a bid to scare the other crew into surrendering without a fight. The truth is, pirates preferred to intimidate and scare their targets rather than fight for several reasons.


This is very un DE like. They never fly around in Imperial cruisers and then go SUPPRISE! And as far as i know their raids are normally terrestrial and not ship to ship so even if the DE are based of of old fashioned pirates they are probably more closely aligned to movie pirates who raid port cities and towns. 



> A) They risk damaging the other ship and the cargo they want to loot. If they sink the vessel before looting it then they get nothing.
> B) They risk damage to their own ship which is much worse for them than their targets. A merchant vessel can rather easily return to a local port and receive repairs there where as pirates have to be much more careful about where they make port.
> C) It's one thing to bloodlessly steal from ships but it's entirely different if they start attacking ships, killing members of the crew and sinking vessels. That kind of stuff is what draws in a response from the local Navy the fastest.


Again this is implying they are making ship to ship raids. I personally would not pit a cardboard DE ship against almost anything.

The fiction paints only a part of the true nature of real life pirates. We see pirates as rogues that loot and pillage from ships and ports without fear, that battle with Navy warships and their crews when the truth is that they aren't quite like that. They attack targets that are the least likely to fight back and easiest to scare into submission while avoiding unnecessary killing. Why they would generally avoid excessive killing and attacking ports is because when they are just stealing from ships they are a nuisance to the authorities but when they start acting out like that, they became a threat. And that's when the authorities begin to hunt the pirates.
[/quote]
On the contrary Oruc Barbarossa would kill anyone or anything that he thought would get in his way, including enemy royalty. That seems pretty DE like to me. 



> The DE are not that dissimilar from the pirates of real life. They don't like to get into serious fights for almost the same reasons.


except for the previous exceptions.


> A) Fighting means killing potential slaves. Why waste in fighting what you can take with careful planning.
> B) Paranoia. When an Archon takes the field of battle, they always must be on guard to threats both without and within. The middle of a battle is a perfect place to assassinate an Archon and take his place. It's not going to happen every battle, but you don't get to where the Archon is by taking chances if you can help it.
> C) Raiding forces tend to be small, mobile groups as they tend to want to fill their holds with as much as they can while splitting the spoils as few ways as possible. Which means they are going to want to avoid confront more serious threats.


A) Because of B. Even the most careful plan can go badly with a snitch in your ranks. If the enemy is gone however its smooth sailing.
B)Exactly. you don't get to be archon by taking chances... like the chance the enemy might make trouble for you. Kill them before they can.
C)Bigger forces get bigger hauls so it evens out, any each individual is more protected because they have more mates to push in the way of an oncoming bullet.


> If you read some of the DE attacks in BL novels, they all tend to occur in systems that are already under attack, allowing them to attack civilian towns and cities far from the fighting with the least amount of defenders, or carefully sabotage things like communications and major means travel on the planet before launching night time raids. To the DE, the most successful raids are those that happen so fast and so stealthily that most of their slaves don't realize what is happening until they are already captured and screaming the holds of DE vessels.


Sadly i do not have the time or money to get too many BL books right now but I hope to in the future but as you said "they all tend to occur in systems that are already under attack" not "they ALWAYS occur." If there is a battle going on and you can exploit it then great, you should do that. If there isn't then there have to be other methods. Again I'm not saying this is a perfect plan for every single raid. It works for some instances but it doesn't work for others. It is one tactic in a surly huge list of DE tactics.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> This is very un DE like. They never fly around in Imperial cruisers and then go SUPPRISE! And as far as i know their raids are normally terrestrial and not ship to ship so even if the DE are based of of old fashioned pirates they are probably more closely aligned to movie pirates who raid port cities and towns.
> 
> 
> Again this is implying they are making ship to ship raids. I personally would not pit a cardboard DE ship against almost anything.
> ...


What? I was talking about _real life_ pirates back in the days of old, not the various pirates of 40k verse! Nor did I ever say that this was tactic that they use. Though actually some DE vessels are equipped with Mimic Engines that allow them to appear to be as any ship save for the Necrons and Tyranids. And they have been known to attack and border weaker, non-military vessels, not unlike the ancient seafaring pirates.

Furthermore, I said _typically_, I never said _all_ pirates. I'm well aware that there are exceptions to this.



> A) Because of B. Even the most careful plan can go badly with a snitch in your ranks. If the enemy is gone however its smooth sailing.


Yes, but that's assuming that all their defenders are in one place for you to wipe them all out with a superweapon. That is a rare situation to have, especially considering that civilized Imperial worlds have PDF forces. They may be poorly trained compared to the IG but like the IG, they tend to have a lot of bodies and can still cause trouble for the DE, then there's the SDF, Adeptus Arbites, local enforcers, the private armies of the nobles of the system, all of which can cause problems for raiders. And if you destroy another planet or moon in the system that is home to SM Chapter or a IG regiment, they're going to be on alert for any kind of attack after that.



> B)Exactly. you don't get to be archon by taking chances... like the chance the enemy might make trouble for you. Kill them before they can.


As I pointed out above, a big explosion or some other form of sudden destruction is going to sound the alarm that they're under some form of attack, something a smart Archon isn't going to do as it actually presents a greater risk than sneaking in and doing things stealthily.



> C)Bigger forces get bigger hauls so it evens out, any each individual is more protected because they have more mates to push in the way of an oncoming bullet.


But you're forgetting that not everything in the DE forces fall under units of the Kabal. Incubi, Witch Cults, Mandrakes and Haemonculi are outside of the Kabals and are hired by Archons to aid their forces in return for a cut of the spoils, the more an Archon hires, the larger the cut of spoils they will want. Additionally, while an Archon can decide how much the warriors of his own Kabal gets of the spoils, if he gives them too little, an ambitious underling can use that to help him eliminate the Archon and take over. And that's not including any potential debts he may have to pay to other Kabals and groups for past issues. Also, I think that Vect demands a cut of all raids the DE carry out as a sign of fealty to him. Regardless, an Archon has to carefully divide up the spoils before they even leave for the raid. Archons know ahead of time how much to pay for the raid and that is the minimum amount they need lest they find themselves facing unhappy DE looking for their payment when they return to Commorragh. Another reason as to why they favor sneaking in and quickly harvesting from remote areas in the system and its worlds before sneaking out and hitting another system or two to fill their quota.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Dang that was a long post. Ok here it goes:


MEQinc said:


> Sure all the tech can't be mentioned in BL books or the codex but by taking pieces of tech NOT mentioned to be had by the DE you completely destroy any attempt at rational logical debate. Inventing facts not supported by evidence is not a good way to back a position.


Fair enough, but that goes the same for you. If there is no mention of it saying they are rare and dangerous with no substantiated evidence is also doesn't hold water.




> The laws of gravity indicate that it would be difficult for anyone, impossible for us, but even with 'magic' tech it would be quite difficult given that 40k does at least use pseudo-science and not outright magic.


The laws of gravity as humans understand it. Who knows what the DE really know about things? And again by your rules since it is not mentioned in the books how the black holes are contained it can not be used as an argument.




> The existence of such devices isn't stated so obviously their construction isn't explained. Regardless, in order to overcome such things as the immense gravity and event-horizon would require advanced technology (as in advanced beyond human understanding). The DE are smart but they aren't universally _that_ smart so the construction of such a device would require some of their brighter minds and some serious work (which the DE don`t like) to create each and every device and likely also to activate them.


Where does it say that the DE aren't that smart? It doesn't say they are that smart either, but the exsistance of such an object would make one think that they indeed are.
And yes the DE don't like hard work but they sure like making all their slaves do hard work for them.




> How many mythical doom-machines do we have? Because your not talking about the DE equivalent to an atom-bomb (as in a rare but completely verified piece of tech), your talking about a completely fictional (as in invented by you) technology which we have no evidence of its existence.


We are talking about a completely fictional race? Everything is fictional in the 40k universe. 




> Okay? I thought (based on what you had previously said) that we were talking about worlds important to the Imperium and not minor worlds like a local PDF base.


The people who are being raided and or destroyed are part of the imperium. I am guessing they think it is pretty darn important. Sure the lords of terra aren't going to freak out about it but a loss is a loss so it does effect them



> Your goals are still the same. Change for changes sake is not a DE thing and is an excellent way to get yourself killed.


Trying new things is definetly the DE way they are hedonistic and thrive on experiences on a whole differen;t level than humans. Blowing up an imperial world might be like eating a big piece of chocolate cake for them.



> Like Orks or humans. Sure wracks and grotesques would work but that's still a loss of your own resources (as you probably had to pay the haemonculus quite a bit).


Sure if you bother to launch a mass attack but that is still not what I am suggesting. I am still very much in favor of a sneak attack that results in the good guys all going bye bye with the aid of one of the weapons "i made up," or the ones that are already stated to exsist.



> You completely missed the point of that statement. You stated that a DE would be willing to fight a human because they would consider it unlikely that they would die in such a fight. I argued that the DE prepare for everything regardless of how unlikely it was and that thus they would rather not take any such risks. You then agreed with me so... yah.


Even during a conventional raid the DE have a chance of dieing but they still do it. They don't sit around peeing their pants knowing that their is a chance however small that they might die.



> Generally speaking killing people is a last resort in the commission of most crimes. It still happens occasionally (and its very sad when it does) but it rarely the goal of any such operation.


Not for beings with sadistic personalities. For them the kill is more important and the money is bonus. Last time i check the DE are at least a little bit sadistic.



> So use a different gate, one that doesn't require you to pass by an Imperial defense area. Space is 3-D and quite large so you should never be required to pass by any area you don't want to.


Many parts of the webway have been destroyed or are not known to the DE (they are not masters of the webway ya know:wink They only have so many options.


> If it meant giving them a gift box than sure that would be easy. But this is 40k, nothing is ever that easy. You would likely have to delve into the heart of the defenses and position the device properly. Such an act is far more difficult to carry out than a speed raid.


That's assuming an awful lot. Like you and I have said, no one know hot the DE tech works. What if it didn't have to be right in the central defence to be effective? All this is hypothetical so there is really no answer.



> _Fear the Alien_ gives us a nice example of a DE miscalculating the power of a foe and losing his Kabal for it. And the DE Codex page 22 gives us the tale of Waagh Zoggit and how they snuck into Commoragh, surprising the DE, and then proceeded to rampage through the streets as the DE schemed against themselves more than they fought the enemy.


I don't think i ever said that they NEVER make a mistake but if there are only 2 in recorded history they are doing much better than most races. I don't think those were at all common mistakes so i wouldn't classify them as easy mistakes.



> Then I still have two hours to pull of the raid. What happens if your attack gets rated out? Then your walking into hell, directly in, and hells waiting for you. If I knew I'd been rated out I'd switch targets, make both groups look like idiots. My initial layout included plans for hitting multiple targets. And why the hell would I want to go on safari?


2 hours isn't a lot of time depending on what you want to do while they are there. If you get ratted out and know about it you could very well turn the tables and bring hell right to the enemy. And the safari was more of a joke but in a race that loves to hunt lesser beings,and capture creaturs for use in the collosiums it wouldn't be impossible.



> You asked (initially) why this type of attack was not a common part of DE strategy. I have answered that question. I will not disagree that there might be times where this was the best course of action, however these times would be rare and thus it would not be a common strategy.


Again this is backed up by what evidence? I actually probably agree with you to an extent. It kind of depends on the layout of the galaxy, the webway and the expansions of all the different races. Its not something you can really assume without knowing all the details.[/quote]




> Your attack on the planets defenders would be dangerous and involve plenty of casualties. Unless of course your magical planet-destroying macguffin is capable of being operated invisibly from deep space and takes no charge up time (which it probably can sense you made it up), in which case this entire debate is void and I will concede that the DE should make as much use of this device as they can.:suicide:


I would like to know what device i made up? I said their are probably other devices but i never described any of them or deduced as to how they worked. The black hole however activated upon opening a box. Would be totally impossible to put that in a space to ground missile?



> I have several days to raid the planet, which is more than enough time to get everyone off. I then can hit all of the other planets. Sure I don't get any marines, but I also don't suffer a single casualty or have to worry about transporting and securing those highly dangerous prisoners (see _Dark Disciple _IIRC, could be one of the others, for an example of the dangers involved).


You don't suffer a single casualty? Really? You are damn good commander that not even an accidental pitchfork thrust punches though you most unlucky warriors paper like armor.

Even in my idea they still could take casualties like any confrontation in the 40K world.

You would make a great delusionaly arrogant DE :wink:




> This is the basis for your argument. You don't want to fight the highly dangerous defenders; so in order to avoid this fight (which would occur on your terms at the location of your choice) you attack them directly (at their home). Do you see how that's circular and self-defeating?


I don't see the difference? you can avoid the fight by destroying the defenders on your terms and at the location you choose even if it is their home?
So no I do not see how wiping out the enemy is self defeating. I feel like if you do not have an enemy you automatically win. If you play tennis by yourself who is going to win?




> Your worlds, Post #38 of this forum. Was my interpretation that you thought a single target to be preferred to a world wrong?


Yeah kinda. I meant that the single famous target would be a world such as IG base world or SM home world and not just the corn fields of the galaxy.



> A better example would be if I heard of someone else getting kicked in the crotch so hard he collapsed and then heard it would happen to me next. I would be terrified of everything and everyone. Versus if I knew it would be you I would just kick you first. See the difference?


So you think hearing about someone getting kicked in the crotch (so hard that they got wiped off the face of the galaxy) and you knew you were next, no matter if you knew it was me or not ever russel in the leaves would have you diving for cover and i do not think a bunch of non soldiers are going to kick me hard enough for it to matter. I do see the difference. I just completely disagree with it.


> A man can be fought, he can be hurt and made to bleed. A shadow, a myth, these things cannot be fought, they are immortal, eternal and all-powerful. You attack the defenses and show yourself to be a man and the villagers will not fear you. They will know they can make you bleed, they will know they can kill you; because it's been done before.


You attack the defenders and make them disappear and your myth just got that much darker and scarier to people who can't fight back.



> Explain to me then the nature of a wolf-pack hunt? Do they charge in and slaughter all the caribou? No, they wait patiently and watch, waiting for a weakened member to separate from the herd. They have been known to trail a herd for days before striking. That is what the Space Wolves are doing, waiting for a straggler to leave a door open.


First of wolves don't have a very good success rate when hunting. Its something like 45%. They also do not wait at all. They are indurance hunters (not ambush hunters... that job goes to cats), so they do not pick out their target before the hunt starts. Like you said they basically run their prey down, until it is to tired to go on. This is when they pick out their target. This is usually the weakest (oldest, sickest, youngest) member of the heard. So if Space wolves were actually wolves then when they saw the DE and decide that's who they wanted to attack they would have chased the DE until the DE gave up out of exhaustion and then killed them. But i'm betting the DE would win that race and the wolves success rate would drop another percentage or 2. Right now the SW are not chasing anyone so would not know who to attack. And for the record if wolves have the opertunity to kill more than one caribou they definetly would because then they would not have to hunt again next time they got hungry, they are just not skilled enough hunters to achieve this. Wolves in the wild usualy go weeks without eating and then gorge themselves.

I have worked with grey and red wolves in 2 different zoos. They are not that intimidating compared to a lot of other predators and are much easier to fight off. Now, if they were space mountain lions with a 75%+ success rate then i would change my tune. Obviously you know more about 40K than the animal kingdom because that is your hobby, so i can not fault you misinterpreting the aspects of an actual wolf hunt. But animals are my hobby(and my job) before 40K so it is easy for me to see flaws in such an argument.



> My response was also an analogy. Careful planning can overcome almost any obstacle. The bases do _not_ prevent you from reaching your objective or reaching your goal, so long as you plan for it.


In most circumstances yes. But in all... maybe not? Who can tell. Its a big universe. Anything that can happen probably has or will.



> Hate comes to mask all other emotions. After a certain point it will feed off your fear. It is a careful psychological balance to maintain a populace in constant fear without allowing it to turn to hate. In your example I would say that the jews feared the nazis more than they hated them. But if you look at places where the jews were free from the fear of that prosecution (such as jewish soldiers in other nations armies) there is evidence of a quite a lot of hate.


Ok so in any group of people (the jews or "non warriors") that are ,lets say harvested, by a stronger group of people (the nazis or "DE") then they will fear them more that hate them. So by your logic if we killed they free jews (IG or SM) their would only be fear. I agree with that.




> The DE are not insane. They are self-obsessed and hedonistic. There is a world of difference between the two.


I used insane as an all encompassing term for all their extreme vices, which by human standards (i am a human after all) are "insane."

This is so much to read and write everyday (that i could be using to do productive stuff, likt the pile of dishes in my sink) so if you want we can just call it and i will say that you all won, unless you want to keep going. Your call. Either way i think this has been a fun little talk with a lot of interesting ideas and different points of view. And I thank you all who have taken part in it.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> What? I was talking about _real life_ pirates back in the days of old, not the various pirates of 40k verse! Nor did I ever say that this was tactic that they use. Though actually some DE vessels are equipped with Mimic Engines that allow them to appear to be as any ship save for the Necrons and Tyranids. And they have been known to attack and border weaker, non-military vessels, not unlike the ancient seafaring pirates.
> 
> Furthermore, I said _typically_, I never said _all_ pirates. I'm well aware that there are exceptions to this.


My mistake i thought you were trying to correlate it back to the DE as you said they were based off of one another. That's cool about the mimic engines though. I hadn't read that. before.




> Yes, but that's assuming that all their defenders are in one place for you to wipe them all out with a superweapon. That is a rare situation to have, especially considering that civilized Imperial worlds have PDF forces. They may be poorly trained compared to the IG but like the IG, they tend to have a lot of bodies and can still cause trouble for the DE, then there's the SDF, Adeptus Arbites, local enforcers, the private armies of the nobles of the system, all of which can cause problems for raiders. And if you destroy another planet or moon in the system that is home to SM Chapter or a IG regiment, they're going to be on alert for any kind of attack after that.


I'll just use MEQinc tactics then and not have a single casualty... i jest...
But the point is i would much rather go up against a poorly trained force than a poorly trained force AND possibly the IG or SM. I am just going to assume that you agree with me that that is a better option in any situation.



> As I pointed out above, a big explosion or some other form of sudden destruction is going to sound the alarm that they're under some form of attack, something a smart Archon isn't going to do as it actually presents a greater risk than sneaking in and doing things stealthily.


Again this seems to be an interpretation of what the DE tech would actually do. Do you know what happens to a planet when it is hit with the essence of a black hole? Does it explode? Or is it very quiet? There is no sound in space anyway and if no one is alive to report that their is a problem you may very well get in without setting the alarm... because the alarm has been destroyed too. This is of course all hypothetical as like it has been stated we do not know how the DE tech works.



> But you're forgetting that not everything in the DE forces fall under units of the Kabal. Incubi, Witch Cults, Mandrakes and Haemonculi are outside of the Kabals and are hired by Archons to aid their forces in return for a cut of the spoils, the more an Archon hires, the larger the cut of spoils they will want. Additionally, while an Archon can decide how much the warriors of his own Kabal gets of the spoils, if he gives them too little, an ambitious underling can use that to help him eliminate the Archon and take over. And that's not including any potential debts he may have to pay to other Kabals and groups for past issues. Also, I think that Vect demands a cut of all raids the DE carry out as a sign of fealty to him. Regardless, an Archon has to carefully divide up the spoils before they even leave for the raid. Archons know ahead of time how much to pay for the raid and that is the minimum amount they need lest they find themselves facing unhappy DE looking for their payment when they return to Commorragh. Another reason as to why they favor sneaking in and quickly harvesting from remote areas in the system and its worlds before sneaking out and hitting another system or two to fill their quota.


I am not forgetting that. I never said the Archon hired anybody. And if he did hire someone then they will probably get that many more slaves that they would not have captured had he not hired them so there is still plenty to go around AND he has a foot in the door with the groups he has hired. They now know he can get them lots of slaves and will be more likely to align themselves with him in the future.

And before someone inevitably says "but Klaivex... then he will just have a bigger target on his back when he gets home." 
Yes... yes he will. But he will also have more allies. Everyone in Commorragh wants power, and if you are working for a talented, efficient archon then your whole kabal will be stronger and better able to defend itself and you will have thin bonds with the incubi, mandrakes, wyches, etc. Some might try to kill him to take his place but others will support him (for the time being) because he is making the Kabal as a whole stronger, and thus all the individuals stronger. 

On the converse, he could be a weak archon in which case he is definetly getting a knife in the spine because he is hurting the Kabal.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> Again this seems to be an interpretation of what the DE tech would actually do. Do you know what happens to a planet when it is hit with the essence of a black hole? Does it explode? Or is it very quiet? There is no sound in space anyway and if no one is alive to report that their is a problem you may very well get in without setting the alarm... because the alarm has been destroyed too. This is of course all hypothetical as like it has been stated we do not know how the DE tech works.


Based on the brief description, it creates a black hole. But it isn't clear if it can be stopped afterwords. So worse case, it would consume the entire planet before starting to consume the whole system. It would case chaos as the people scrambled to flee from the system, allowing for them a significant amount of cover to take those souls fleeing for their lives. I've read in novel a band of DE using a major Tyranid invasion of a world that was being evacuated to attack convoys on the planet heading to the starport and even bribing a captain of one the ships roped into helping evacuate the civilians into handing them over to the Archon. Naturally after gaining all those souls, the Archon betrayed him and added the captain to his holds.

However, it would also rob them of any future raids against the worlds of the system. Which could be seen as a sign of foolishness and stupidity as well as quite wasteful, destroying a system that could have netted numerous raids over the centuries.

Of course, that's just theory on the worst case scenario on a vague super weapon that has been only mention once among a race that has never before mentioned having any other weapon of that magnitude.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Based on the brief description, it creates a black hole. But it isn't clear if it can be stopped afterwords. So worse case, it would consume the entire planet before starting to consume the whole system. It would case chaos as the people scrambled to flee from the system, allowing for them a significant amount of cover to take those souls fleeing for their lives. I've read in novel a band of DE using a major Tyranid invasion of a world that was being evacuated to attack convoys on the planet heading to the starport and even bribing a captain of one the ships roped into helping evacuate the civilians into handing them over to the Archon. Naturally after gaining all those souls, the Archon betrayed him and added the captain to his holds.


Based on the codex it caused a vortex. it never actually said a black hole. And technically black holes are more like rotating spheres (based on the Schwarzschild radius) I doubt the authors actually took that into account and just assumed the shape of a black hole based on the current artistic representations of it.

But yes, in the worst case scenario the system is destroyed. In the best case scenario just one planet is. And if they can get the black hole into a box who's to think they can't do it again to stop its effects? Again this is an unanswerable question because the answer does not exist. It all depends on one's interpretation of the writing. But the fact that is not written does not disprove the theory... lots of stuff is not written and still is.

My personal interpretation of it is that an archon would not have a super weapon that he could not control. But thats just me.



> Of course, that's just theory on the worst case scenario on a vague super weapon that has been only mention once among a race that has never before mentioned having any other weapon of that magnitude.


And is never mentioned to not have more... That's why this whole topic is hypothetical. If that is the only object of that magnitude then yes this whole idea is defunct but if it is not the only one then the idea could be conceivable. It is based on unknowns so there is no right or wrong answer. There are just people interpretations.


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

TLDR-pointless post version: Necrons did terrible things to the Imperium. Were not assaulted back en masse. Reasoning being the Imperium has no idea what they are truly up against on the Necron front. They can't even figure out their most basic guns. DE on the other hand the Emperor probably has a pretty good idea what threat they pose - very little in the grand scheme of things.

I have to say that I opened this thread knowing nothing about the Dark Eldar. After reading all of the posts (I had a lot of time to kill!) I now am very interested in reading their books. Seems they are an army I could get in to. 

You mentioned the Necron threat quite a bit earlier in the thread. From Codex: Necrons (which is about the only available fluff for them - almost) there is a reason the Imperium hasn't brought it's full weight down on them for what they have done: the Imperium has no idea the level of the threat of Necrons. Or Tyranids. They know there are a lot of them. They know the Necrons are backed by beings that pre-date every known race in the galaxy. The Emperor laid the smack down on once. But that was not a fully health C'tan and was possibly part of that C'tan's grand plan (from what I've read on forums - this is not something I personally have read). 

You can't compare DE and Necrons in any way. One is a limited but very powerful band of warriors who hold some very mysterious technology. 

The other is a very run down (possibly), re-awakening army led by beings who care absolutely nothing for their servants or the entire galaxy - as long as something/someone is left to repopulate it to feed them again - preferably without having to hole up for another 60 million years.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Fair enough, but that goes the same for you. If there is no mention of it saying they are rare and dangerous with no substantiated evidence is also doesn't hold water.


The fact that mention of such devices is rare (as in pretty much non-existant) is very strong evidence in support of the weapon itself being rare (or even non-existant). True we can not speculate on the dangers involved but given mu understanding of physics (which is fairly high if I do say so myself) there are obvious risks involved. 



> The laws of gravity as humans understand it. Who knows what the DE really know about things? And again by your rules since it is not mentioned in the books how the black holes are contained it can not be used as an argument.


The laws of gravity are the Law. They are fundamentally true regardless of racial perspective, age or intelligence. Perhaps there are factors in these laws that we have not yet discovered but those minor details will not alter the fundamental nature of gravity. 



> Where does it say that the DE aren't that smart? It doesn't say they are that smart either, but the exsistance of such an object would make one think that they indeed are.
> And yes the DE don't like hard work but they sure like making all their slaves do hard work for them.


In everything they do? I have never heard of a DE with an Einstien IQ (or Newton). I have never heard of DE being inatly able to solve advanced math problems. I have never heard of DE showing advanced intelligence in anything other than schemeing and psychology. 



> We are talking about a completely fictional race? Everything is fictional in the 40k universe.


Your point? You were comparing a fictional race to ours. Doing so does not allow you to invent mythical devices for us or make eronious comparisions (which is what I felt like you were doing). 



> The people who are being raided and or destroyed are part of the imperium. I am guessing they think it is pretty darn important. Sure the lords of terra aren't going to freak out about it but a loss is a loss so it does effect them


Aah. This is why it's important to clarify ones position. The Imperium (which I always take as meaning the institution as a whole) doesn't care for the life of one world or one hundred. Imperial subjects (which is what you were in fact talking about) would indeed care, so fair point. 



> Trying new things is definetly the DE way they are hedonistic and thrive on experiences on a whole differen;t level than humans. Blowing up an imperial world might be like eating a big piece of chocolate cake for them.


The DE feed on souls. Slaanesh feeds on experiences. DE =/= Slaanesh. They are not his worshippers/cultists/servents/etc. they live to serve themselves. The DE cannot absorb souls lost in the destruction of a world so it would most certainly not be a piece of cake. 



> Sure if you bother to launch a mass attack but that is still not what I am suggesting. I am still very much in favor of a sneak attack that results in the good guys all going bye bye with the aid of one of the weapons "i made up," or the ones that are already stated to exsist.


 


> Even during a conventional raid the DE have a chance of dieing but they still do it. They don't sit around peeing their pants knowing that their is a chance however small that they might die.


Risk v. Reward. The larger the risk the greater the reward had better be, but I think your planned attack falls very close to the point of diminishing returns (if not over it). 



> Not for beings with sadistic personalities. For them the kill is more important and the money is bonus. Last time i check the DE are at least a little bit sadistic.


Well obviously. We were comparing the commision of crimes in our modern, western society to the acts of sadistic murderers from beyond the stars. There are obviously going to be a few places were such a comparision falls apart. But even sadists are more interested in staying alive to perpetuate their dominance. A sudden killing spree resulting in their death doesn't demonstrate any more power than a series of successful thefts/raids/murders, indeed I would argue it demonstrates less. And power through pain is the goal of sadism so I would certainly agree that the DE are sadists (they have a rule that says as much) but that doesn't mean their just in it for the kill.



> Many parts of the webway have been destroyed or are not known to the DE (they are not masters of the webway ya know:wink They only have so many options.


Touchek:



> That's assuming an awful lot. Like you and I have said, no one know hot the DE tech works. What if it didn't have to be right in the central defence to be effective? All this is hypothetical so there is really no answer.


Your right, it assumes that the DE function like all other races in 40k and don't have world-destorying tech that can be activated from far away without risk. That is simply (in my experience) not how 40k works.



> I don't think i ever said that they NEVER make a mistake but if there are only 2 in recorded history they are doing much better than most races. I don't think those were at all common mistakes so i wouldn't classify them as easy mistakes.


Two of the top of my head. I could go track down all of them and give you a full list, but you're already complaining about the length of my posts. 



> 2 hours isn't a lot of time depending on what you want to do while they are there. If you get ratted out and know about it you could very well turn the tables and bring hell right to the enemy. And the safari was more of a joke but in a race that loves to hunt lesser beings,and capture creaturs for use in the collosiums it wouldn't be impossible.


2 hours is plenty of time to pop out of a portal, burn some houses, grab everybody in the village in a net and disappear. Indeed if it takes longer than two hours (even if that isn't your timeline) I would posit that you're doing it wrong.



> Again this is backed up by what evidence? I actually probably agree with you to an extent. It kind of depends on the layout of the galaxy, the webway and the expansions of all the different races. Its not something you can really assume without knowing all the details.


It is backed up by the lack of evidence. There is simply put little to no evidence of the DE employing such devices or utilising such tactics. While there will be instances were such things go unrecorded it is safe to assume (given the intact nature of the 40k timeline and the presence of first hand (author) sources) that the majority of events recorded do indedd represent the majority of events and thus that the amount of times something is mentioned equates roughly with its occurance within the setting.



> I would like to know what device i made up? I said their are probably other devices but i never described any of them or deduced as to how they worked. The black hole however activated upon opening a box. Would be totally impossible to put that in a space to ground missile?


You have never given specifics on a device, that is true. You have however speculated (and based the bulk of your argument upon the specualtion) that devices exist in common DE usage that are capable of reliably, safely and cheaply destroying a planet from deep-orbit without charging time (this last points are assumed in order to have the device function in the manner you require). This is the mythical device you hasve created (I'm going to call it the 'Klaivex-sphere').

It could be totally impossible to put the box in a missle. Opening is not the same as destroying. If you shoot a nuke it doesn't go off, it generally disarms. Depending on how exactly the box functions the successful operation could indeed be contigent on opening it (which would likely require a sacrifice). Also to address something you said in another post it is also unlikely that the black hole could be shut off. I would be willing to speculate that one could create a black hole (through a electron collider, we have actually done this) and trap it in a device that somehow limited it just below critical requirements. The device could then be triggered by releasing the containment and allowing the black hole to gain criticality and begin expanding. *Holy poopmonkeys I actually really like this idea and am officially entering it into my background as how the black-hoe box works* Trapping a black hole before criticality and somehow reversing its expansion are two completely different things and I have no idea how the second would work.



> You don't suffer a single casualty? Really? You are damn good commander that not even an accidental pitchfork thrust punches though you most unlucky warriors paper like armor. ..snip..
> You would make a great delusionaly arrogant DE :wink:


I am a damn good commander, thank you:king:. But yah: fly in (screaming jets ON), shoot some of the buildings (preferably with something that will light them on fire), and grab people in the razorsnares as they run out of the buildings. Once you've gotten the bulk of the people loaded up and in-tranport back you can disembark with the cream of your Kabal and pick up any stragglers, if anybody gets close enough to use a pitchfork SHOOT THEM. Its not that hard for a technologically advanced alien race to abduct a city full of people without getting hurt. 



> I don't see the difference? you can avoid the fight by destroying the defenders on your terms and at the location you choose even if it is their home?
> So no I do not see how wiping out the enemy is self defeating. I feel like if you do not have an enemy you automatically win. If you play tennis by yourself who is going to win?


Well obviously I assumed that destroying a planet would require an attack on said planet. Silly me, yes, we will certainly use your magical Klaivex-sphere which kills a planet without requiring an attack. A much simpler solution, well done sir, now if only we could make the bloody thing, we could take over the galaxy! Mwahahhahaha!



> Yeah kinda. I meant that the single famous target would be a world such as IG base world or SM home world and not just the corn fields of the galaxy.


Well alright then. So famous to the Imperium (as a whole) or to Imperial citizens? Because the first would be a brutal target to attack and the second is most of the planets they do attack. 



> So you think hearing about someone getting kicked in the crotch (so hard that they got wiped off the face of the galaxy) and you knew you were next, no matter if you knew it was me or not ever russel in the leaves would have you diving for cover and i do not think a bunch of non soldiers are going to kick me hard enough for it to matter. I do see the difference. I just completely disagree with it.


I could at least try and kick you (and I would) I have no such option against an unknown enemy. 



> You attack the defenders and make them disappear and your myth just got that much darker and scarier to people who can't fight back.


You _attack_ the defenders, as in you _fight_ them, as in _some of you DIE_. This shows the regular people that you can indeed by killed and they then set about trying (admittedly they won't do very well but they will at least try). 



> First of ..snip.. But animals are my hobby(and my job) before 40K so it is easy for me to see flaws in such an argument.


Far enough. I bow to your superior knowledge in this field. Space Wolves are hunters and _some_ hunters wait, was my point, which you will hopefuly agree with. 



> In most circumstances yes. But in all... maybe not? Who can tell. Its a big universe. Anything that can happen probably has or will.


My point exactly. It is NOT a COMMON strategy. It happens (maybe) but it not a useable strategy in the _majority_ of situations. 



> Ok so in any group of people (the jews or "non warriors") that are ,lets say harvested, by a stronger group of people (the nazis or "DE") then they will fear them more that hate them. So by your logic if we killed they free jews (IG or SM) their would only be fear. I agree with that.


Actually my point was that the members of the targeted group (in this case humans) who are themselves not targeted will hate you for targetting those they identify with. So by my logic the only ways to not have ALL of humanity hate you is too A) kill all humans (good luck with that) or B) not let them know its you. 



> I used insane as an all encompassing term for all their extreme vices, which by human standards (i am a human after all) are "insane."


1) Calling people insane can be offensive.
2) Incorrectly labeling groups leads to stereotyping and ignorance.
3) Insanity implies a lack of rationality. Simply because you do not agree with the rationality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The fact that mention of such devices is rare (as in pretty much non-existant) is very strong evidence in support of the weapon itself being rare (or even non-existant). True we can not speculate on the dangers involved but given mu understanding of physics (which is fairly high if I do say so myself) there are obvious risks involved.


If the amount of times an object appears in writing dictates its abundance in the world then lots of things that are very common would be near mythical in their rarity. I personally have not seen mention of underpants in any 40k writings. Is it safe to assume that nobody wears underpants in the far future?

Also the converse must be true. Since there is a lot of mention of suits of terminator armor (in a lot space marine stories), there must be a ton of it just laying around somewhere. I wonder why all the marines don't wear it? (because it is rare despite the constant mention of it.)



> The laws of gravity are the Law. They are fundamentally true regardless of racial perspective, age or intelligence. Perhaps there are factors in these laws that we have not yet discovered but those minor details will not alter the fundamental nature of gravity.


Compare what we humans know of the laws of gravity now as apposed to 2000 years ago. Now compared that to how our knowledge will differ in tens of thousands of years. Now finally compare that to a race who is pretty much said to be vastly superior technologically and age wise. I am sure they would know a thing or two more than we do and if you go by the drastic leaps in understanding in only a 2000 year period I am willing to be that those things are not just minor details.



> In everything they do? I have never heard of a DE with an Einstien IQ (or Newton). I have never heard of DE being inatly able to solve advanced math problems. I have never heard of DE showing advanced intelligence in anything other than schemeing and psychology.


Well the Haemonculie obviously also have advanced intelligence of anatomy and physiology, but i don't think it ever mentions their knowledge of math, but based on their age i am guessing they have an decent understand of most things. They are the remnants of one of the most successful , intelligent races in the galaxy after all.



> Your point? You were comparing a fictional race to ours. Doing so does not allow you to invent mythical devices for us or make eronious comparisions (which is what I felt like you were doing).


Ah I misread what you had said. But again i do not feel like I have created any technology. I have taken one piece of technology and suggested it be used in a different manner and made the apparent terrible assumption that every toy the DE could possibly possess is not listed in the codex. 

My analogy was only to show that a race can have more than one super weapon.



> Aah. This is why it's important to clarify ones position. The Imperium (which I always take as meaning the institution as a whole) doesn't care for the life of one world or one hundred. Imperial subjects (which is what you were in fact talking about) would indeed care, so fair point.


An attack on Imperial subjects is still an attack on the Imperium. Whether the governing body of the Imperium cares matters little.



> The DE feed on souls. Slaanesh feeds on experiences. DE =/= Slaanesh. They are not his worshippers/cultists/servents/etc. they live to serve themselves. The DE cannot absorb souls lost in the destruction of a world so it would most certainly not be a piece of cake.


Yes they feed on souls. They thrive on experience. I feed on hamburgers but i don't thrive on hamburgers.

The 2nd paragraph of the Reavers entry basically says that the DE experience stimuli to such an extent that they become obsessed with it. The reavers love the feeling of going fast so they thrive off of spreed. They still feed on souls but the experience of killing someone slowly would not satiate them to the extent of doing it during a 36 inch turbo boost.

Even the fact that they are hedonistic relates to their need for new experience to thrive (not to live). If you believe that pleasure is the most important aspect of your life are you going to be content doing the same thing again and again or are you going to have to do new indulgent activities to satisfy your craving for pleasure?




> Risk v. Reward. The larger the risk the greater the reward had better be, but I think your planned attack falls very close to the point of diminishing returns (if not over it).


Risk would be your super advance tech does not work ( probably a small risk or it wouldn't be super advanced). Reward would be a near defenseless region of space to harvest as many slaves as you want (big reward) That's just how i see it anyway.



> Well obviously. We were comparing the commision of crimes in our modern, western society to the acts of sadistic murderers from beyond the stars. There are obviously going to be a few places were such a comparision falls apart. But even sadists are more interested in staying alive to perpetuate their dominance. A sudden killing spree resulting in their death doesn't demonstrate any more power than a series of successful thefts/raids/murders, indeed I would argue it demonstrates less. And power through pain is the goal of sadism so I would certainly agree that the DE are sadists (they have a rule that says as much) but that doesn't mean their just in it for the kill.


Staying alive is the number one goal of such an attack. Say you want to steal a cow. You could just raid the farmers pasture and grab 1 every once in a while, risking getting shot by the farmer or you can kill the farmer and take them all (and his daughter).

If you did things your way, and i did thing my way, my farm would have a lot more stolen cows and a farmers daughter so i would obviously be more powerful in the beef industry.

The DE are not going to be doing the majority of their "soul feeding" on the battle field. That's why they take slave home with them. The battle does not have to be the sadistic act. It just has to be a means to an ends.



> Your right, it assumes that the DE function like all other races in 40k and don't have world-destorying tech that can be activated from far away without risk. That is simply (in my experience) not how 40k works.


Most races can't deal with the power of a black hole, or kill a whole squad of terminators by showing them their reflection (shattershard). i don't think it is fair to base anything about a particular group based on all the others. Tactics, weaponry, ethics, morals, ability, history, ect are all different. 



> Two of the top of my head. I could go track down all of them and give you a full list, but you're already complaining about the length of my posts.


Only because they are so darn long!!!!  If you want to waste your time doing it I will gladly read it but honestly i don't think this topic warrants such an undertaking.



> 2 hours is plenty of time to pop out of a portal, burn some houses, grab everybody in the village in a net and disappear. Indeed if it takes longer than two hours (even if that isn't your timeline) I would posit that you're doing it wrong.


Two hours is probably more than enough time to steal the population a village. But what if you want to steal the population of a planet, or system. that would take at least a few extra minuets.



> It is backed up by the lack of evidence. There is simply put little to no evidence of the DE employing such devices or utilising such tactics. While there will be instances were such things go unrecorded it is safe to assume (given the intact nature of the 40k timeline and the presence of first hand (author) sources) that the majority of events recorded do indedd represent the majority of events and thus that the amount of times something is mentioned equates roughly with its occurance within the setting.


I know they don't use the tactics based on the writings. I never said they did. The question from the beginning was why don't they. 
Why don't they?
Because they haven't.
oh :no:



> You have never given specifics on a device, that is true. You have however speculated (and based the bulk of your argument upon the specualtion) that devices exist in common DE usage that are capable of reliably, safely and cheaply destroying a planet from deep-orbit without charging time (this last points are assumed in order to have the device function in the manner you require). This is the mythical device you hasve created (I'm going to call it the 'Klaivex-sphere').


I first used a described piece of technology used in a different manner. I then made the assumption that a race would have more than one super weapon... especially a race like the DE. Do you think that if super black hole box was the DE most powerful weapon vect would have used it already without having a backup of some kind? 

The mythical device that i have not created but have assumed exist based the above logic, the "Klaivex-sphere" (i prefer Klaivex-cube because I am a fan of alliteration) was in fact created by you. I would like to know its powers though. I bet it is intense.

I also never said they were common (thought i did assume the number was greater than one).
I also never said it would be cheap. It might very well be very expensive but you know the saying"

Do it fast
Do it cheap
Do it well (in this case the number of slave is how well they do)

Choose any 2.

So 
you can use a super weapon to destroy defenders so you can quickly get lots of slaves, without having to deal with defenders (fast and very successful but expensive) 
*fast is relative here. It is not as fast as a normal raid but it collects more slaves faster than doing multiple normal raids*
or 
you can do a really fast raid and get fewer slaves (fast and cheap but not as effective)
or 
you can do it with a smaller force and be stealthy to collect slave (cheap and effective but slower)



> It could be totally impossible to put the box in a missle. Opening is not the same as destroying. If you shoot a nuke it doesn't go off, it generally disarms. Depending on how exactly the box functions the successful operation could indeed be contigent on opening it (which would likely require a sacrifice). Also to address something you said in another post it is also unlikely that the black hole could be shut off. I would be willing to speculate that one could create a black hole (through a electron collider, we have actually done this) and trap it in a device that somehow limited it just below critical requirements. The device could then be triggered by releasing the containment and allowing the black hole to gain criticality and begin expanding. *Holy poopmonkeys I actually really like this idea and am officially entering it into my background as how the black-hoe box works* Trapping a black hole before criticality and somehow reversing its expansion are two completely different things and I have no idea how the second would work.


The part in green is based off of human technology at its current level and is therefore pointless when talking about a futuristic race of evil space elves who don't use our technology.

As for the first part, i didn't say it would have to be destroyed. It could be as simple as having a robotic arm (possibly made out of a severed slave arm to make it more dark eldar-ish) open the box at a certain point.

As for having a sacrifice... what makes you think it would require a sacrifice? It doesn't seem common for DE weaponry to need a sacrifice to work. 



> I am a damn good commander, thank you:king:. But yah: fly in (screaming jets ON), shoot some of the buildings (preferably with something that will light them on fire), and grab people in the razorsnares as they run out of the buildings. Once you've gotten the bulk of the people loaded up and in-tranport back you can disembark with the cream of your Kabal and pick up any stragglers, if anybody gets close enough to use a pitchfork SHOOT THEM. Its not that hard for a technologically advanced alien race to abduct a city full of people without getting hurt.


pitchfork was a joke. it would more likely be some sort of rifle. What farmer doesn't have a rifle?



> Well obviously I assumed that destroying a planet would require an attack on said planet. Silly me, yes, we will certainly use your magical Klaivex-sphere which kills a planet without requiring an attack. A much simpler solution, well done sir, now if only we could make the bloody thing, we could take over the galaxy! Mwahahhahaha!


If only we could... oh wait. we already made one and used it in the codex. But that was our only super weapon that we will ever have. darn. we shouldn't have used it so soon.



> Well alright then. So famous to the Imperium (as a whole) or to Imperial citizens? Because the first would be a brutal target to attack and the second is most of the planets they do attack.


If it is any kind of military base i would assume it would be famous to the Imperium, including its citizens.



> I could at least try and kick you (and I would) I have no such option against an unknown enemy.


You would also probably accidentally kick a few innocent people thinking they were me, making them weaker and easier to catch up. thanks for that. And I tricked you. I attacked with wyches so they have a 4++ save in CC and it doesn't hurt as bad when they get kicked there! :laugh:



> You _attack_ the defenders, as in you _fight_ them, as in _some of you DIE_. This shows the regular people that you can indeed by killed and they then set about trying (admittedly they won't do very well but they will at least try).


Unless you attack them from a distance with a super weapon? or surprise attack them with a super weapon? 



> Far enough. I bow to your superior knowledge in this field. Space Wolves are hunters and _some_ hunters wait, was my point, which you will hopefuly agree with.


Space wolves could change their names to space cats, space crocodilians, space tarantulas, or space pythons if they like to sit and wait for their prey to get too close.



> My point exactly. It is NOT a COMMON strategy. It happens (maybe) but it not a useable strategy in the _majority_ of situations.


ok? i don't think we disagree with this? The question wasn't why don't they only do this. it was why don't they do this.



> Actually my point was that the members of the targeted group (in this case humans) who are themselves not targeted will hate you for targetting those they identify with. So by my logic the only ways to not have ALL of humanity hate you is too A) kill all humans (good luck with that) or B) not let them know its you.


I feel like Imperium already hates the DE? and the orks and the necrons and the tyranids and every other xeno race out there so why worry about being hated when you already are? You can hate them all you want. it doesn't change their strength. The Ultramarines hate the tyranids but they still killed the whole first company.



> 1) Calling people insane can be offensive.
> 2) Incorrectly labeling groups leads to stereotyping and ignorance.
> 3) Insanity implies a lack of rationality. Simply because you do not agree with the rationality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


[/quote]
1)Calling fictional space elves shouldn't be offensive to anyone except fictional space elves
2)Incorectly labeling a group of fictional space elves definetly leads to stereotyping fictional space elves and spread ignorance
3) Insanity implies actions based on mental or behavioral abnormalities that normaly clas with scocital norms. So as a human and basing them off of my scociatys norms the DE are very much insain.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> If the amount of times an object appears in writing dictates its abundance in the world then lots of things that are very common would be near mythical in their rarity. I personally have not seen mention of underpants in any 40k writings. Is it safe to assume that nobody wears underpants in the far future?
> 
> 
> > Sure, people don't even generally wear pants in 40k. Bodysuits sit right on top of the skin so underpants are unnecessary.
> ...


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

> Sure, people don't even generally wear pants in 40k. Bodysuits sit right on top of the skin so underpants are unnecessary.


Their must me a lot of chafing in the 40k world.




> The logic there isn't the same. Also pretty much every time Terminator armour is mentioned it's noted how rare it is, thus completely defeating your point.


So stuff is only rare if it is mentioned to be rare? So DE super tech might not be rare because it is never described as such.



> So I'm comparing what science tells us with what people made up? And the difference there is supposed to convince me that gravity is a lie? Certainly theories (like Gravity) will get expanded on but it is very rare (especialy now-a-days) for them to be completely disproven.


You are comparing science as it is today vs a fictional far future filed with highly advance technical race. In fiction anything is possible. 
You mention the blackstone fortresses that can shoot beams of immaterium and you are concerned with bending the laws of gravity?



> 1) Knowledge and intelligence are not the same thing. One is gained from study, practice and learning the other is inate. The life-span of DE is thus irrelevant in determining their intelligence.
> 2) The Eldar race was (and is) an increadibly psykic race. Throughout both of their peaks they acheived the bulk of their achievements purely through the application of their psykic powers. Much of their technology (their remaining technology given that both the CWE and the DE are post-apocalyptic races) still runs on psykic power today. None of this indicates a particular intelligence amongst the Eldar.


1) Intelligence is basically the accumulation of knowledge someone has. Knowledge is gained throughout ones life. So the more knowledgeable one is the more intelligent he is.
Intellectual aptitude is innate but intelligence is gained through knowledge.
2)DE no longer use psychic powers, so they have remade their whole society using advance craftsmanship to create weapons that rival or surpass there cousins. I don't think an undertaking like that would be possible without quite a bit of knowledge in many different fields and as such an advanced intelligence.


> Actually it matters alot as has previously been discussed.


It matters in terms of possible retaliation but not in definition.



> Alright. So you're starving and your presented with the following options:
> 1) go blow up a burger joint (with added security) and then rob a smaller burger joint. Cause explosions are fun right?
> 2) just go rob the burger joint.


Your points really have anything to do with the section you quoted but I would blow up the source of defence for the burger joints (because yes explosions are fun) and then rob them all. (I hope homeland security doesn't read this or we are both going to get detained ha ha)


> The DE are constantly hungry. They survive purely by consuming souls in the most painful way possible. They don't thrive at all, they merely keep existing.


I disagree with this completely.
The DE enjoy their lives. Haemonculi have a good time doing body modifications on themselves and torturing victims. 
The wych cults home their fighting skills because it is their passion.
Beast masters and reavers could just be normal wyches but they find joy in subjugating creatures and going fast.
If they were just trying to survive their would not be as much individuality as their is between different aspect of their culture. They all are different because of the experiences that they have become obsessed with. If they were just worried about surviving they would not care about things like that.

Example:
You can put a falcon in a cage and feed it chicks and mice and it will survive, but falcons are made to fly and their inability to fly and stoop and hunt in captivity prevents them from thriving.


> You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the Imperium. More or less every world is dependent solely on its self for defense. This is because travel is slow and dangerous. This means that regardless of whether or not you take out the big military planet the risk during your raids are still largely the same. Local militia or PDF provide the bulk of the defense for any world. To steal from your cow-stealing example, the farmer is the PDF and the police station in town is the military planet. Do you blow up the police-station before stealing the cows? Probably not (unless you really like explosions, in which case why are you stealing cows?) because it is a largely unnecessary waste of time and drastically increases your chances of something going wrong.


Ultramarines are the defenders of all of Ultramar. Sure their are PDF and local militia but whats more scary to a DE? A whole chapter of super humans or a handful of pathetic fragile humans?

As for the example if you blow up the police station you are dramatically more likely to get away without incident. Once the raid is taking place or even once it is done, who is the farmer going to go to for help? The local police might have helped him but they are gone so if he wants help he will have to go to the higher ups... say the FBI (Imperial government). The FBI isn't going to care about a few missing cows.



> The battlefield is the only place where they will be feeding on the soldiers. Indeed this is why the Kabalites go on raids, because of the battle-field feeding.


My understanding was they used chain snairs to snatch up the soldiers and bring them home. In the battle field people die too quickly compared to how long it would take back home. The bulk of the "feeding" still does not take place on the battlefield. If it did slaves would be unnecessary.



> Most races also can't repair from the molecular level, teleport without the warp, achieve warp-free FTL travel, transplant souls into robots, see the future, crack planets apart, fire guns with their minds, make red things go faster, etc. I was basing my statement on the general rules of 40k which state: Everything is grim-dark and in this grim-dark world of grim-darkness nothing is easy and no victories are ever meaningful in the long run.


Is this a general rule that exists somewhere or one that you just made up? I still don't think it is reasonable to base an aspect of one race upon the collective universe.



> Hmm, maybe. I would still say that I could complete the bulk of the raid before the defenders show up (even if their only two hours out, which probably means orbit which means I would know they were there) and even then I could complete the rest of it while distracting the defenders with my hired-help.


Well according to your logic, in the grim-dark grim-darkness nothing is easy so maybe you will get out before they get there or maybe you wont. 



> Because they don't have the tech, desire or need to.


According to?




> Many super-weapons in 40k are products of a long-lost age of technical superiority (another major theme) and so many of them are not re-creatable (there are only so many Blackstone Fortresses, World Engines, Planet Killers, etc). The DE are not shown to be particularily obsessed with super weapons so I don't know why you think they would have more than others. Vect certainly has back-ups I just don't think that Vects back-ups are a reliable thing to base a strategy.


Well again if we go by your logic, the Eldar race was one based off of the use of psychic powers so it is very possible that the black hole in a box was made from some really old psycher, however psychers are used as toys in Commorragh and psychic powers are not permitted so chances are it was made by craftsman rather than psychers or it would not be trusted by the DE. If it was build, it should most likely be able to be built again. It isn't by far the most complicated piece of tech the DE possess. I think it would be easier to contain a black hole than create a casket of flensing or an orb of despair. How do you create invisible flesh eating imps or contain negative emotion without the use of psychic powers. Of course i only understand thing based on the current human understanding.



> You're right cube is better. And you do know its powers because the device was created to fulfill your strategy.


hmmm The klaivex-cube drives people insane with really long forum posts eventually leading to a complete mental breakdown.




> You assumed they were common enough to make a relable and usable strategy.


Common enough to make a reliable and usable strategy...in rare circumstances. Yes.



> I meant cheap enough to use on relatively worthless targets. So if I do my raids fast (and they will be faster than yours as I can pull the whole op in under 2 hours and only require one portal) and well (due to my previously discussed excellent generalship and lack of risk taking) that is better than your slowler, more expensive and possible better method, yes?


That would work but you still would not get as many slaves as me so while it may have been executed well, the results which is what i was talking about would not be equal.



> You said stick it in a missle, I assumed said missle was actually a missle (and thus exploded), my bad. The sacrifice was the person opening the box (or in this case firing the missle) as a black hole would quickly destroy said person. I suppose you could completely remote operate the device but that's not really the DE's style and it also involves a lot of risk of failure.


Not all missiles explode on contact. Bunker busters have a timed charge. Perhaps it could have a timed release.
I don't feel like the guy who opened the box was a sacrifice to activate the box... he was more just its first victim.



> The kind with no hands whos house is one fire?


You have to get close enough to cut off his hands and maybe he is not in his house. it only takes 1 lucky (or skillful) shot.




> Had doesn't mean made. Peices of tech are recovered all the time in 40k but are often un-recreatable. I further never said they didn't have more devices I said such devices would be rare and they're use would therefore be limited to extremely important scenarios.


With the personality of the average archon I don't think Vect Would be the only one with such devices, nor do i think the DE would trust the use of ancient tech, that they couldn't understand the creation of. It would not go with their suspicious and careful nature.



> The Imperium as a collective wouldn't care if it lost any military base shy of say Valhalla and even then it wouldn't be that upset, plenty more where that came from.


Again whether or not the Imperium as a whole would care does not change or reduce the fame of a target.



> Obviously. I have agreed that such a device if it were readily available for common raids would be very useful. As is though the use of anything resembling a planet killer in DE tech must be set off manually and that will require an assault (and regardless of how surprise it is people will still start shooting back).


even if it was not readily available and was used only every 100th time they made a raid it would still be useful to that raid. And because such a device does not currently exist in the 40k universe the use of such a device is purely speculation/imagination.



> The Imperium in general doesn't know the DE exist. Some people in high places are aware that they pose a galaxy-wide (if minor) threat and some have heard legends that would be artributed to the DE by us. Most however remain largely ignorant of them (same with the Necrons).
> I am guessing that SM know of them from their training and IG have probably heard stories of them from marines or other soldiers who have fought them. It all trickles down. Maybe the lowly farmer does not know about them but the ones who will be fighting them probably have some idea. And even if they have no clue what it is, if it isn't hman the Imperium probably hates it.
> 
> 
> ...


Based of their society they are not. I am not a DE so I can say that they are insane. DE would say people are cattle meant to be harvested and tormented for their pleasure. I wouldn't say that because I am one of thoes people.

There is something insane about the DE based on human reasoning. There is something compleatly pathetic about humans based on DE reasoning. They don't have to agree for it to be true.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> So stuff is only rare if it is mentioned to be rare? So DE super tech might not be rare because it is never described as such.


Sigh. I consider things to be rare if they are A) never mentioned or B) mentioned as being rare. The two are not mutually exclusive.



> You are comparing science as it is today vs a fictional far future filed with highly advance technical race. In fiction anything is possible.
> You mention the blackstone fortresses that can shoot beams of immaterium and you are concerned with bending the laws of gravity?


The warp is 40k's acceptable break from reality in my mind. Anything which is not dependent on the warp (such as a black hole) is still required to conform to the laws of the real world. Saying that anything is possible in fiction is a very poor defense. I could say based on that reasoning that Space Marines are all girls and shoot kittens out of their eyes while having slumber parties with the hot nid next door. Does that make sense? No. Is it a good story? Maybe. Would I accept it into my 40k? Hell no! 



> Ultramarines are the defenders of all of Ultramar. Sure their are PDF and local militia but whats more scary to a DE? A whole chapter of super humans or a handful of pathetic fragile humans?


Hence my use of "more or less every" their are obviously exceptions to this rule. However we are not talking about Ultramar we're talking about a random planet in a random system that no-body has ever heard of. Chances of that system being constantly monitored by a founding legion are pretty slim.



> As for the example if you blow up the police station you are dramatically more likely to get away without incident. Once the raid is taking place or even once it is done, who is the farmer going to go to for help? The local police might have helped him but they are gone so if he wants help he will have to go to the higher ups... say the FBI (Imperial government). The FBI isn't going to care about a few missing cows.


But the FBI will care about a blown up police station. And the cops probably wouldn't care much about some cows being stolen either, so. Yah.



> My understanding was they used chain snairs to snatch up the soldiers and bring them home. In the battle field people die too quickly compared to how long it would take back home. The bulk of the "feeding" still does not take place on the battlefield. If it did slaves would be unnecessary.


Does every single DE soldier use a chainsnare? No. Do the DE feed drastically of the dead on a battlefield? Yes. Are they stated as finding this feeding as exilerating as back home? Yes. The slaves are necessary for deals and because the DE can't be fighting all the time. Basically the battlefield is the buffet and the slaves are the leftovers you take home when its done.



> According to?


Every. Freaking. Word. That. I've. Said.

Tech: They are not stated to have numerous black-hole boxs and are not stated to have any other similar weapons. The DE are noted to have advanced and rare tech left behind by their ancestors but also as being unable to reproduce the work. Thus the availablity of such weapons is extremely limited.

Desire: The DE desire slaves and souls inorder to sustain their way of life. They like to spice things up but are also extremely practical. Destroying a planet provides them with neither slaves nor souls (that they can feed on) and thus only serves as a way to make things interesting. Even for the DE bored is better than dead.

Need: The DE have sustained and expanded their numbers through the tactics they currently use. The Imperium and other prey show no signs of changing their methods of defense. The bulk of Imperial systems are poorly defened and generally without a central defender capable of responding in the needed time frame. 

Understand? 



> Well again if we go by your logic, the Eldar race was one based off of the use of psychic powers so it is very possible that the black hole in a box was made from some really old psycher, however psychers are used as toys in Commorragh and psychic powers are not permitted so chances are it was made by craftsman rather than psychers or it would not be trusted by the DE. If it was build, it should most likely be able to be built again. It isn't by far the most complicated piece of tech the DE possess. I think it would be easier to contain a black hole than create a casket of flensing or an orb of despair. How do you create invisible flesh eating imps or contain negative emotion without the use of psychic powers. Of course i only understand thing based on the current human understanding.


Psykers are killed because of the risk their powers pose. There is no evidence that suggests this is true of psykic tech. DE tech, based as it is on psykic powers and the warp as well as a clearly advanced understanding of souls would likely have a far easier time creating devices based on these areas (such as the two you mention) than they would breaking the laws of gravity.




> With the personality of the average archon I don't think Vect Would be the only one with such devices, nor do i think the DE would trust the use of ancient tech, that they couldn't understand the creation of. It would not go with their suspicious and careful nature.


And I don't think Vect would allow others to have such powerful devices. Nor do I think he would pass up on something simply because he can't make it. He is powerhungry afterall.



> Again whether or not the Imperium as a whole would care does not change or reduce the fame of a target.


Can you really call a planet that maybe two other worlds have heard of famous? Because I think thats stretching.



> even if it was not readily available and was used only every 100th time they made a raid it would still be useful to that raid. And because such a device does not currently exist in the 40k universe the use of such a device is purely speculation/imagination.


What are you trying to prove with this point? You freely admit that the tech doesn't exist. You then go on to state that it would be useful. So? Your question was WHY DON'T THEY USE IT, you yourself have just answered this question.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Ok, I read straight through the first 8 pages....agh.

So I apologize if some of these points have been brought up in the last two.

It seems that both sides of the argument have overlooked something huge about the dark eldar. The codex makes it _very_ clear that the dark eldar are _far_ too busy fighting amongst themselves to think about taking on larger portions of the material realm. If _nothing_ else, this has got to be the primary reason for them not making larger, more significant raids.

Another point to make, if an archon did take an entire system in a shorter amount of time as you suggest they ought to want to do, then that archon's slave resource would be a lot at first and look awesome but it would dwindle quickly. If they attack one planet that is not well defended then they have the fun they want, don't put themselves in a high risk of dieing at the hands of a lesser race, get a bunch of slaves to take back and by leaving the planet alone they give it time to regrow the population for a longer more steady flow of slave/souls. Since the dark eldar live for millennia they can outlive the memory of any survivors and wait until the populace is no longer worried about another attack.

and lastly, as I have seen others mention a lot, the dark eldar are content with where they are right now, and larger raids would likely bring them more attention that they dont need or want.

edit*

looking back at your original post i forgot it was originally really just about Vect. But yeah same reasons really. As mentioned that could have been the only black hole essence he was able to get his hands on for all we know. Also as mentioned and going off that, we dont know how rare or hard it is to make any of these huge ass planet destroying weapons they might have. and as I have stated, I dont think destroying planets is in their interest because it kills a slave/soul resource rather than taking long term advantage of it. Also you note that it may be a big prestige builder for archons to destroy worlds rather than raid insignificant ones, however, the dark eldar are more fond of the cunning aspects of battle and genius strategy like the lady malys story how she got vect's approval.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Sigh. I consider things to be rare if they are A) never mentioned or B) mentioned as being rare. The two are not mutually exclusive.


You make up a lot of rules that are in no way stated to be the truth on how the authors write.




> The warp is 40k's acceptable break from reality in my mind. Anything which is not dependent on the warp (such as a black hole) is still required to conform to the laws of the real world.


If this is really true i fear for your sanity. Warp is a break from reality but giant space bugs, orks, terminator like robots, the webway, races surviving by consuming the pain of other races are all real? Please go to a psychologist... soon. 
I mean for gods sake. In the DE some one turns himself into a living beam of light and gets trapped in a prism and used as a weapon! That is not as bad as bending the laws of gravity?


> Saying that anything is possible in fiction is a very poor defense. I could say based on that reasoning that Space Marines are all girls and shoot kittens out of their eyes while having slumber parties with the hot nid next door. Does that make sense? No. Is it a good story? Maybe. Would I accept it into my 40k? Hell no!


If fiction was based on the rules of reality the game of 40k would not exist. The space marines could easily have been designed as girls had the authors chosen to do so.

And for the record my 40k is very different from your 40k. Fiction is all about interpretation. That's what makes it fun.




> Hence my use of "more or less every" their are obviously exceptions to this rule. However we are not talking about Ultramar we're talking about a random planet in a random system that no-body has ever heard of. Chances of that system being constantly monitored by a founding legion are pretty slim.


What does being a founding legion have to do with anything? Any chapter could look after a region of space if they felt it necessary for any reason.



> But the FBI will care about a blown up police station. And the cops probably wouldn't care much about some cows being stolen either, so. Yah.


The Imperium wouldn't care by your own words so that is a poor analogy. And cops would most definitely look into a case of theft.



> Does every single DE soldier use a chainsnare? No. Do the DE feed drastically of the dead on a battlefield? Yes. Are they stated as finding this feeding as exilerating as back home? Yes. The slaves are necessary for deals and because the DE can't be fighting all the time. Basically the battlefield is the buffet and the slaves are the leftovers you take home when its done.


I don't think any DE warriors use chainsnairs? I thought they were attached to the vehicles.
And i disagree of your interpretation. I feel like the battle is the appetizer (because it is over quickly) and when they get home they have their meal (because they can take their time). This is especially true of the Haemonculi.



> Tech: They are not stated to have numerous black-hole boxs and are not stated to have any other similar weapons. The DE are noted to have advanced and rare tech left behind by their ancestors but also as being unable to reproduce the work. Thus the availablity of such weapons is extremely limited.


They are also not noted to have a lack of said devices, except by _your rules_ of it not being brought up a lot.
Where are they noted as to having rare tech left behind by their ancestors and being unable to reproduce it? I have not seen that anywhere.


> Desire: The DE desire slaves and souls inorder to sustain their way of life. They like to spice things up but are also extremely practical. Destroying a planet provides them with neither slaves nor souls (that they can feed on) and thus only serves as a way to make things interesting. Even for the DE bored is better than dead.


It does not provide them soles or slaves from that Particular planet but it leaves the surrounding area at an extreme disadvantage when they get raided. Allowing them more slaves. You and i disagree on this point.


> Need: The DE have sustained and expanded their numbers through the tactics they currently use. The Imperium and other prey show no signs of changing their methods of defense. The bulk of Imperial systems are poorly defened and generally without a central defender capable of responding in the needed time frame.


But not every Imperial system... most. You said it yourself. If the best webway portal for a particular archon is nearest to such a system my method would be exceptionally effective.


> Understand?


what you wrote? Yeah. I still disagree with it though, or at least see it from a different point of view.



> Psykers are killed because of the risk their powers pose. There is no evidence that suggests this is true of psykic tech. DE tech, based as it is on psykic powers and the warp as well as a clearly advanced understanding of souls would likely have a far easier time creating devices based on these areas (such as the two you mention) than they would breaking the laws of gravity.


I didn't think the DE tech was psychic based. Their techs is said to be refined to a point that it "may as well be magical." but is not magical.

And as far as the 2nd part that is based solely off _your rules _of the 40k universe. How i want to interpret it is my business.




> And I don't think Vect would allow others to have such powerful devices. Nor do I think he would pass up on something simply because he can't make it. He is powerhungry afterall.


I agree that vect would not want others to have these devices. I don't think that would stop most archons who are also power hungry. I don't think Vect or any archon would possess any tech that they didn't understand because it could very well be used against them without their knowledge. it could be on a timer or have a remote or be completely worthless when the time comes to use it. It would be a liability to posses such a device.



> Can you really call a planet that maybe two other worlds have heard of famous? Because I think thats stretching.


Only 2 other worlds have heard of it? where did that come from. Don't you think the Imperium has at least a basic star map of their territory. That's like saying Rhode Island isn't known because its so small and not a lot of people live there.



> What are you trying to prove with this point? You freely admit that the tech doesn't exist. You then go on to state that it would be useful. So? Your question was WHY DON'T THEY USE IT, you yourself have just answered this question.


Ha. you got me on poor wording. Nice. I approve!:victory:

i should have said the current written 40K world. Who know what will change in story with the next editions? Or with whatever we interprate the world to be. Thats half the damn fun of the game.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> You make up a lot of rules that are in no way stated to be the truth on how the authors write.


That's not a rule it's just logic. If something is _stated_ to be rare than we can assume it is in fact rare. Correct? If something is not mentioned than we can assume the number of times it comes up is less than the number of times things which are mentioned occur (obviously this is not a hard and fast rule but a good rule of thumb). This part is based on simple probability and the assumption that the fluff is an accurate account of what 'really' happens.



> If this is really true i fear for your sanity. Warp is a break from reality but giant space bugs, orks, terminator like robots, the webway, races surviving by consuming the pain of other races are all real? Please go to a psychologist... soon.


I never said I believed them to be real. What I said was that these things _could theoretically_ exist in our universe without requiring breaks from the laws of our universe. Indeed the warp could too, but thats another point entirely.



> I mean for gods sake. In the DE some one turns himself into a living beam of light and gets trapped in a prism and used as a weapon! That is not as bad as bending the laws of gravity?


Warp-tech is not required to conform to the laws of this universe because it is based off another dimension. Non-warp-tech is required to conform to these laws because it is based in this dimension. Activating psykic potential to become a 'beam of light' and a weapon is clearly warp-tech. A black-hole is clearly not.



> If fiction was based on the rules of reality the game of 40k would not exist.


That is simply wrong. Everything in 40k that is not directly dependent on the warp conforms to the rules that govern our universe. 



> The space marines could easily have been designed as girls had the authors chosen to do so.


But the fact that they weren't designed as girls means that they cannot be girls in 40k. By the same logic the DE were not designed as being invaders possessing world destroying tech and so they cannot be.



> What does being a founding legion have to do with anything? Any chapter could look after a region of space if they felt it necessary for any reason.


Few chapters possess the numbers, logistics or desire to protect entire systems of space. The Ultramarines do, the Space Wolves try, I don't know about any others who attempt to routinely (as in not responding to a direct threat) patrol such vast areas because it would be a massive drain on their already limited personel base.



> It does not provide them soles or slaves from that Particular planet but it leaves the surrounding area at an extreme disadvantage when they get raided. Allowing them more slaves. You and i disagree on this point.


We do indeed. Few worlds depend on their neighbours because travel is difficult and dangerous or slow in 40k. Ergo by destroying a planet you are not really impacting its active defenders (those who could respond in a resonable time frame).



> I didn't think the DE tech was psychic based. Their techs is said to be refined to a point that it "may as well be magical." but is not magical.


DE society is based of their ancestors who was solely psykic. This means that their tech is psykic based. They have found ways to create many of these devices mechanically but that doesn't change the fact that the entirety of their civilization is based on psykic tech.



> I agree that vect would not want others to have these devices. I don't think that would stop most archons who are also power hungry. I don't think Vect or any archon would possess any tech that they didn't understand because it could very well be used against them without their knowledge. it could be on a timer or have a remote or be completely worthless when the time comes to use it. It would be a liability to posses such a device.


There is a huge and very important difference between not knowing how to make something and not knowing how it works. I know how an atom-bomb works, could I make one? No. I agree that Vect wouldn't use anything he didn't know how to work (he would still keep them though because he'd be worried someone else would) but I never suggested thats what these devices were.



> Only 2 other worlds have heard of it? where did that come from. Don't you think the Imperium has at least a basic star map of their territory. That's like saying Rhode Island isn't known because its so small and not a lot of people live there.


The bulk of Imperial citizens are illiterate, what are the chances of them having access to star-maps? The bulk of Imperial citizens are dirt poor, what are the chances of them ever leaving their home-city let alon planet? Truth is most planets in the Imperium are utterly alone despite being part of the galaxies largest empire.

Many people outside of North America probably don't know Rhode Island (and I personnally have only a vague idea where it is). I would certainly say that Rhode Island is not a famous state because of this. 



> i should have said the current written 40K world. Who know what will change in story with the next editions? Or with whatever we interprate the world to be. Thats half the damn fun of the game.


Well okay then. So we're done here?


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> That's not a rule it's just logic. If something is _stated_ to be rare than we can assume it is in fact rare. Correct? If something is not mentioned than we can assume the number of times it comes up is less than the number of times things which are mentioned occur (obviously this is not a hard and fast rule but a good rule of thumb). This part is based on simple probability and the assumption that the fluff is an accurate account of what 'really' happens.
> 
> 
> > About 90% of of the usable DE tech (game wise) is not mentioned in the fluff (mostly because not a whole lot is written about them compared to SM). Is all of it rare? It is the base weaponry of the whole race?
> ...


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The reason Asdrubal Vect doesn't do more is that he's got an ugly old model. So he's waiting for renewal.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Creon said:


> The reason Asdrubal Vect doesn't do more is that he's got an ugly old model. So he's waiting for renewal.


Finally.... something I think we all can agree on.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> About 90% of of the usable DE tech (game wise) is not mentioned in the fluff (mostly because not a whole lot is written about them compared to SM). Is all of it rare? It is the base weaponry of the whole race


What? In every single DE story I have ever read they have mentioned every single peice of standard tech (generally not by name, but the descriptions are easy enough to match). 



> The warhammer 40k world is described as a dystopian science *fantasy* universe.


The difference between science fiction and science fantasy is primarily the 'feel' of the story. So the fact that it is described as such is largely irrelevant.



> Where does it say it is warp tech?


Oops, my mistake, I misremember the story. The technique he uses is theorectically possible given Einstiens E=mc2 formula which means that mass (a person) and energy (light) are interchangable. He could then easily travel vast distances at the speed of light.



> Secondly please described to me how casket of flensing, orb of despair and soul traps work based on the rules of our universe. It is not warp based tech because DE steer clear of any connection to the warp so as to not catch the eye of she who thirts, and it clearly states in the wargear section that they seem like the tools of a sorcerer but indeed are not.


It is infact warp tech because they relies on the medium of the warp (the location of souls and emotions in 40k) inorder to function and as such is independent of our rules. 

The DE avoid *psykers *because they draw attention. Warp-tech is not necessarily psyker-tech and is certainly not dependent on psykers to function. Look at Imperial Warp Drives, clearly warp-tech yet it is also a machine, built by other machines, which does not require a psyker to activate. 



> DE have forsaken their ancestors ways of life so as to not attract the attention of she who thirsts.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The DE maintain their ancestors way of life perfectly. That is the entire reason why they look down on the CWE. That is why they have to hide in the webway to avoid Slaanesh's attention.



> Their weapons are is manufactured (by slaves under order of cruel task masters- page 10) and not grown through psychic processes like the CE. Do the slaves have the ability to create psychic technology?


Did I not say that they had mechanical means of creating their stuff? And again, warp-tech is not necessarily psykic-tech and does not necessarily require psykers to build. Therefore, yes, slaves could indeed build warp-tech. Not that any Archon would trust them too.



> The bulk. The bulk. Most. I am talking about the others. I have said a number of times not that this would not be used for every single raid! In the event that it is not one of these planets and is a defended planted with some tasty looking slaves then that is where this tactic would come into effect.


Great so you go raid the dozen or so planets that fulfil your requirements. Me, I'll be off raiding the rest, properly.



> Their are plenty of things that have put RI on the map, and in this analogy i was using America as the Imperium so people outside of its borders would not really matter in this circumstance. I should have made my self clearer on that point.


Okay then RI was a bad example. How about Hayes, Nebraska? Ever heard of it?



> You should look at maps or travel more often.


Because I should care about the States? There is more to this great and glorious world (hell there's even more to North America) and I'd rather see the beuties of my own homeland (Canada, eh.) than random states with nice whales. 



> Oh god I hope so...


Not quite yet, apparently.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> What? In every single DE story I have ever read they have mentioned every single peice of standard tech (generally not by name, but the descriptions are easy enough to match).


Care to provide some examples because I have not seen most of their tech besides splinter weapons, darklight weapons and some CCW. 



> The difference between science fiction and science fantasy is primarily the 'feel' of the story. So the fact that it is described as such is largely irrelevant.


I agree. The 40K world feels very impossible to me, so despite its definition (which is not irrelevant but not necessarily the most important aspect of it) it is still science fantasy to me anyway.



> Oops, my mistake, I misremember the story. The technique he uses is theorectically possible given Einstiens E=mc2 formula which means that mass (a person) and energy (light) are interchangable. He could then easily travel vast distances at the speed of light.


Mass and energy are interchangeable but flesh, bones, thought, and soul (40k is all about souls) are not interchangeable to light. You can not turn into light without the use of some kind of made up alchemy. Even if based on the E=mc^2 formula he could travel at the speed of light, he himself would not become living light.



> It is infact warp tech because they relies on the medium of the warp (the location of souls and emotions in 40k) inorder to function and as such is independent of our rules.


Most DE tech trap souls and then releases them. The souls the DE use are not from the warp but captured and contained before reaching the warp. Its like being in purgatory. Hence the name soul trap and not collect a soul from the warp device.


> The DE avoid *psykers *because they draw attention. Warp-tech is not necessarily psyker-tech and is certainly not dependent on psykers to function. Look at Imperial Warp Drives, clearly warp-tech yet it is also a machine, built by other machines, which does not require a psyker to activate.


I still do not think DE tech is warp tech based on my previous statement, but your example of warp drives brings up another point of everything but the warp being feasible.

Gellar Fields- unknown subatomic particles that create a bubble of real space time around a ship. Completely made up and not feasible, frankly poor writing and not based on the warp.

And as for the law of gravity being inflatable in your 40K I found this little ditty:

"Bio-Ships called "Narvhals" that manipulate their intended destination's own gravity to compress realspace into a type of gravitic transit corridor or worm hole, allowing the Hive Fleets to cover vast distances very quickly."

UH OH!!! Manipulating gravity is against the rules!!!! Better call the authors. 

Can i say science fantasy again here? I think I shall. SCIENCE FANTASY.



> Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The DE maintain their ancestors way of life perfectly. That is the entire reason why they look down on the CWE. That is why they have to hide in the webway to avoid Slaanesh's attention.


They maintain it perfectly, except they do not allow psychers, instated a kabal system, and worship (kind of) the dark muses rather than the eldar gods so i would definetly not say "perfectly" It may be based off their ancestors but they have a flare all their own.

The simple act of killing all psychers is an extreme deviation to the very psychically adept and reliant race. They adapted to survive.



> Did I not say that they had mechanical means of creating their stuff? And again, warp-tech is not necessarily psykic-tech and does not necessarily require psykers to build. Therefore, yes, slaves could indeed build warp-tech. Not that any Archon would trust them too.


If as you say the DE tech is warp tech then the slave do build it based on the last paragraph on page 10 of the codex.
I still disagree that it is warp tech based on the fact that i think every instance of a soul in the DE codex is referred to as trapped and not collected or extracted or called upon from the warp. 

If they just used the warp they would be the same as most other races that have psychic-tech but they are quite different to be sure.




> Great so you go raid the dozen or so planets that fulfil your requirements. Me, I'll be off raiding the rest, properly.


More like I raid any planet I want whether it be one that you are more comfortable with or one that is more defensible. I seem to have more options than you.



> Okay then RI was a bad example. How about Hayes, Nebraska? Ever heard of it?


ha ha! Ironically yes, I have been there. I had a good friend move their back when I was younger. (not right there but just outside). That was just bad luck on your part though.

Also it was named after our 19th president so its got some history.



> Because I should care about the States? There is more to this great and glorious world (hell there's even more to North America) and I'd rather see the beuties of my own homeland (Canada, eh.) than random states with nice whales.


I never said you should travel the states or look at maps of the states. I don't live in Canada but I can tell you were all the different territories are without looking at a map as well as all the countries in africa. And I have been to canada as well (you have a lot of lakes). I certainly do support staying in one area though. I myself have been to most of N America, C America, Europe and Africa so i very much support getting out of your homeland once in a while.



> Not quite yet, apparently.


:no: Please?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Care to provide some examples because I have not seen most of their tech besides splinter weapons, darklight weapons and some CCW.


Which would constitute 90% of their tech no? By amount of usage at least. But Shadow fields are common, agonizers have been used on several occasions. Many of the newer devices are not present in BL novels because (to the best of my knowledge) no novels have come out featuring the DE since those devices were created. 



> Most DE tech trap souls and then releases them. The souls the DE use are not from the warp but captured and contained before reaching the warp. Its like being in purgatory. Hence the name soul trap and not collect a soul from the warp device.


Souls are present *exclusivly *in the warp. They are simply the manifestiation/reflection of a persons memories/emotions/thoughts in the warp dimension. A DE soul trap sucks the soul out of the warp and into the box (at the point of death before the soul can disintegrate into the warp). 



> I still do not think DE tech is warp tech based on my previous statement, but your example of warp drives brings up another point of everything but the warp being feasible.
> 
> Gellar Fields- unknown subatomic particles that create a bubble of real space time around a ship. Completely made up and not feasible, frankly poor writing and not based on the warp.


1) I said anything not involving the warp not just the warp.
2) To the best of my knowledge the Gellar Field involves vibrations at a certain frequency not subatomic particles and that this allows the ship to maintain (as in carry with it, not create) a field of reality.
3) Without detailed knowledge of the warp I cannot say whether or not this would actually work but I see no reason to believe that vibration couldn't somehow alter the fabric of the warp (after all warp engines can somehow breach it). 
4) the idea of vibrations affecting warp space is carried through into other fluff as well (further supporting my ideas) as seen in the Pylons on Cadia.
5) Tech which interacts with or utilizes the warp in some way is what I consider to be warp-tech. Souls are part of the warp and a soul trap interacts with them so it is warp-tech in my mind.



> And as for the law of gravity being inflatable in your 40K I found this little ditty:
> 
> "Bio-Ships called "Narvhals" that manipulate their intended destination's own gravity to compress realspace into a type of gravitic transit corridor or worm hole, allowing the Hive Fleets to cover vast distances very quickly."
> 
> UH OH!!! Manipulating gravity is against the rules!!!! Better call the authors.


I never said gravity couldn't be manipulated. I said the laws of it couldn't be broken. Worm holes are present in our galaxy (I'm fairly confident of this though I could be wrong) and in no way represent a breaking of the rules of gravity. 

And I vastly prefered when the nids used the warp like everybody else. It was stupid and unnecessary to give them a different form of FTL travel.



> If as you say the DE tech is warp tech then the slave do build it based on the last paragraph on page 10 of the codex.
> I still disagree that it is warp tech based on the fact that i think every instance of a soul in the DE codex is referred to as trapped and not collected or extracted or called upon from the warp.


All DE tech is based off warp-tech yes. The more powerful are rare devices still utilize warp-tech. The codex has the slaves making weapon parts and the vast bulk of DE weapons do not constitute warp-tech (though they are still based on it as that's what their ancestors used).



> I never said you should travel the states or look at maps of the states. I don't live in Canada but I can tell you were all the different territories are without looking at a map as well as all the countries in africa. And I have been to canada as well (you have a lot of lakes). I certainly do support staying in one area though. I myself have been to most of N America, C America, Europe and Africa so i very much support getting out of your homeland once in a while.


Fair.



> :no: Please?


This will be my last post in this thread unless a new question is asked. You have asked a question, I have answered it and you have agreed with my response. What we have now is a fairly unnecessary debate about semantics and the nature of 40k (which is really beyond debate as it is purely a matter of interpretation). I have enjoyed our lengthy chat. Good day to you sir.:victory:


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I guess my post had nothing to do with this argument then?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

unxpekted22 said:


> I guess my post had nothing to do with this argument then?


Well they were all good points, but ones that furthered my argument (and that I had at least mentioned before) so I felt no need to address them. Don't feel bad it saved you from the rest of the argument :blackeye:.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Well they were all good points, but ones that furthered my argument (and that I had at least mentioned before) so I felt no need to address them. Don't feel bad it saved you from the rest of the argument :blackeye:.


haha yeah the discussion has been way too long I think and at times got way too literal for a fictional discussion. I was trying to tie the thread back to the original post's question I suppose. I did agree with your side of the argument for the most part so yeah was trying to get a new side of the same perspective in, just felt like you forgot to mention those couple things to klaivex. but like I said it was hard to remember every word in the thread.

I only say something like that because I have seen threads before where basically two people start going at it and anyone else who posts the two 'fighters' basically glaze over them.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Which would constitute 90% of their tech no? By amount of usage at least. But Shadow fields are common, agonizers have been used on several occasions. Many of the newer devices are not present in BL novels because (to the best of my knowledge) no novels have come out featuring the DE since those devices were created.
> So lack of there being more mention of it making it, by your rules, rare may be just that, a lack of much writing about them in general.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

unxpekted22 said:


> I guess my post had nothing to do with this argument then?


I read your argument as well but feel as if all you said had already been mentioned in the ludicrous number of pages this talk when on for so I choose not to respond to it.

Sorry for making you feel left out.


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