# Tales of Heresy Discussion - Spoilers!



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i finished tales of heresy about a week ago and im surprised that there isnt a thread about it already. i wanted to see what people thought of it as a whole and also what they thought about the individual stories.

overall i thinks it a great edition to the series and hopefully they can do a few more books in that format to fill in any gaps or expand on fluff thats already out there.

i really liked blood games as it was about the custodes and fleshed out what terra was like too. the only downside i thought was that it portrayed the custodes as not as powerful as i was lead to believe i.e just has strong as a marine and nothing close to what a primarch is. i was on the understanding that valdor beat horus in a duel before he turned traitor.

wolf at the door i thought started abit slow but with the end being so dramatic made up for that. i like the idea of making you think if the crusade is justified and is the emperors idea of forcing unity on humanity a noble action or is it just trading one bad life for another. plus the story does add abit more humanity to the wolves instead of seeming like outright barbarians.

scion of the storm is yet another fine example of heresy story, its was great how the people on the planet were actually worshipping the emperor even before they came into contact with anyone else from humanity. it goes along way to reverse the opinion i got of the emperor from the last church

now the voice i didnt really get, while i got a sense of creepy, walking around a ship in deepspace (or warp) i didnt get what the novice was supposed to be and how she would be able to send a message back in time, it creates sort of a time paradox as she gets killed and hence wouldnt be able to have sent the message back. this story also changed my opinion of sisters of silence in that i thought they were sort of marine like but had the pariah gene in them but they are just normal women thats power is sort of a faith based thing which surely is not even allowed in the emperors imperium never mind in one of most elite bunch of troopers.

call of the lion i thought was great and it had the marine from angels of darkness. hopefully it will tie in with the fallen angels novel and help flesh out the indifference in the dark angles legion. obviuosly the other commander in it was a calibanite who was sent to shadow the terran angels in the lions paranoia. i can sort of see how the fallen angels novels will turn out and its seems like it might be a corker of a book.

now the last church, well what a story. we have been waiting for some of the emperor but now we got him im sort of gobsmacked. is it just me or does the guy seem a right arsehole. while he had good points in his views of religion he sort of contradicts himself at time. maybe we have the wrong idea about him in the sense we think of him in his god type 40k status instead of seeing the humanity in him. maybe if we look at all the primarchs personalities we can get a idea of what He is really like, even the bad side as obviously some of the primarchs seem to have inherited. i think the bit that left me most shocked was when he said to his custodes 'come, we have a galaxy to conquer'. for me i wouldnt have thought a being like him would have said such a thing, i would have thought more along the lines of 'come, we have humanity to set free' or something along those lines. 
abit of topic but ive always never understood why he didnt try and do the whole imperium thing when humanity was at its peak but then could it be evident he how he wants to conquer the galaxy for himslef maybe. god im starting to thing that maybe chaos was right about Him.

and lastly, at desh'ea. for me my most favourite story and it left me wanting more angron. this is a prime example of destroying the opinion that many have of the emperor has he did such a dishonourable thing in letting angrons people die. why not teleport down with his custodes and help angron and his people. from this story i got such a sense of all the actions of angron to come and if anyone had such a right to turn their back on the emperor it angron. so i loved this story and cant wait for more world eaters, god they deserve their own sub HH series if you ask me.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

My Review Here - pretty much sums up my views 

My personal favourite was The Last Church. We finally see the Emperor from a different view-point. We see that he is Ruthlessly ambitious, and is a violent character. It truley makes you wonder whether or not the Emperor was doing the right thing, and whether his 'Great Crusade' was the best path for humanity. Wolf at the Door emphasised this point in its ending i think.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeh totally agree with you there, its sure gonna make for some juicey dialogue when Him and Horus confront each other. im keen to see if they have a big discussion while battering each other as to the validity of the emperors visions for mankind.
it seems like the authors keep throwing in quite abit the question as to if he should have or if he had the right to do what he did.
ive allows felt the emperor knew all along that the heresy would happen and has his own designs on the universe but allows being in a good way. but know with some of the stuff in tales of heresy its made me question Him somewhat.
its making for some intriguing stuff and its definatly making the series seem better as it goes along.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> yeh totally agree with you there, its sure gonna make for some juicey dialogue when Him and Horus confront each other. im keen to see if they have a big discussion while battering each other as to the validity of the emperors visions for mankind.
> it seems like the authors keep throwing in quite abit the question as to if he should have or if he had the right to do what he did.
> ive allows felt the emperor knew all along that the heresy would happen and has his own designs on the universe but allows being in a good way. but know with some of the stuff in tales of heresy its made me question Him somewhat.
> its making for some intriguing stuff and its definatly making the series seem better as it goes along.


Indeed  The Last Church if anything portrays the Emperor as a man rather than a god, which is what he is!

I really hope that Horus and the Emperor have a decent chat before they duel aswell, as you said maybe along the lines of the main argument of why Horus turned, who is truely right, and whether or not the Emperor was selffish in a sense and just trying to obtain Godhood (even if he thought it would be for the 'best' of Humanity)

On a side not the main problem i have with the Emperor knowing of or planning the Horus Heresy is this makes him so much more ruthless. If he did so he willingly condemned his favourite son and 8 other primarchs to Chaos, aswell as Trillions of humans - it also means he was willing to let trillions upon trillions of humans be killed/corrupted by chaos since the Heresy.


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeh i think we are gonna see a totally different emperor as to whats in our minds now which to me seems like a good thing as He is human like you say and can have human failings too. after all he always said he wasnt a god just a very knowledgable human.

as to the emperor making all those sacrifices, i think he might turn out to be playing a long game in the sense that yeh maybe trillion are sacrificed but if it helps defeat chaos and keep mankind alive also then its worth. dont forget that the acuity said that the extermination of mankind will end chaos but what happens if chaos can be defeated with extinction, kinda worth it really.
but with the sacrifice of the primarchs, maybe its was sort of a personal punishment of the emperor to lose his favourite son and the turning of the other eight was an inevitable thing as they all had some grudge or flaw in their character that made them corrupt in a sense even before chaos revealed themselves. 

the emperor seems to have abit of a hand in shaping how the traitor primarchs turned out has he did things that helped turn their hands to chaos and this could be a clue to Him knowing what he was doing.

i personally think angron is such a tragic character in the sense he was dealt a bad hand, tried to make the best of it and in his hour of need the emperor failed to do what was right and save his people. He could have easily teleported down and helped out but chose to teleport angron away and create the resentment in him.

perturabo is another that had a brotherly rivalry with dorn and seeked to show his marines were just as good if not better than the imperial fist but instead of getting both legions to work on the imperial palace He singled out one and pushed the other away yet creating another primarch who slowly but surely was vulnerable to chaos.

konrad curze kinda is self fulfilling in creating himself and quite possibly the other traitor primarchs. when he first met the emperor he was spazing out and the emperor with his mighty psychic powers soothed his pain but maybe got a glimpse as to what the night haunter saw and chose to do nothing to help is schizo son out. he was probably in most need to some counselling in a sense but He did nothing to help his son and his weird ways distanced him from his brothers. while curze didnt commit to chaos as such he still turned from the emperors light and helped the cause of chaos.

i think with the others its a case of if the emperor had taught them in more depth about what chaos is and was able to do then maybe they would have been able to spot when people or things were conspiring to swing them to chaos and this would have been much more of a sheild to the prevations of chaos. i mean take lorgar for example, he worshipped Him as a god then got told off for it but instead thinking well this is a humble being and while he has godly powers he doesnt seek worship but lets still treat him as such he chose to listen to a minion and swing to chaos. it weird because not long before that he thought He was a god and got so easily swayed. its abit wierd and hopefully they address it more sometime.
fulgrim is another that if he knew about daemon possessed weapons then he would have killed his best brother and let himself fall to chaos because of the guilt. 
ive not got much to say on mortarion beside that yet again another minion was able to have a big effect on the future of the legion and the primarch was sort of blind to it again.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hmm.. maybe - but im still not convinced 

I came across THIS short story earlier which was written by William King and was originally published in WD131.

If you get chance give it a read its pretty interesting! the main bits illustrating my point that the Emperor didnt plan or forsee the heresy is:

"He (The Emperor) has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognitive vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers. Is this where I die?"

and

"For the first time in his millennia-long life the Emperor knows despair. The magnitude of his defeat stuns him. The lunar bases have fallen. Most of the Earth is under the Warmaster's heel. Rebel Titans surround the palace and are held at bay only by the desperate efforts of a few loyalists. It is only a matter of time before the palace's defences fail and the last bastions of resistance fall."

and

"He feels bewildered. Even now, with the Traitor Warmaster's forces battering at the gate, he finds it difficult to believe that he has been betrayed."


----------



## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

i just finished all but the last story about Angron and the WE. 

So far, Scions of the Storm really made me feel.. like Lorgar was being an arsehole, so-to-speak. But the info on how theres like, 35+ Company's of WB was new fluff to me. Also recognising Kol Badar in that rang a bell. I know he was in those 2 WB books, but i cant recall their titles. 

Blood Feud (sp?) was just outright awesome. Custodes are just awesome. How they test securities, breaches, etc. was pretty interesting. Only thing that bothered me was how such a large being could slip by all this stuff unnoticed despite being what he is. I mean honestly, if a regular SM tried to do that, he'd be spotted instantly. How a custodes got around all that kinda makes ya wonder 

The story about the 13th SW Company was pretty good until it blew me away at the end where Bulveye does what he did because Andras did what he did. 

The DA story made me hate the Calibanite DA's, and like you guys said, Lion just wanted the Terrans shadowed, kept under watch, etc.. it was just lame because although Belath was a Chapter Commander, Astelan had seniority over him, yet Belath continued to override that seniority and just totally turned me off to the Calibanite DA's. 

The Voice, was just wierd (Nuff said ;] ).

And The Church.. well once the Emperor walked in and said his name was Revalation(sp?) I knew at once that was him. I saw the humane side of him, because he sat down, drank wine, drank some intense whiskey/rum/gin/alcohol of some type and said he hadnt had it in a long time. ALSO the points he brought up about religion are genious, but im sure theyve got their flaws and i havent thought too deeply about those yet =p


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

War!7H said:


> So far, Scions of the Storm really made me feel.. like Lorgar was being an arsehole, so-to-speak. But the info on how theres like, 35+ Company's of WB was new fluff to me. Also recognising Kol Badar in that rang a bell. I know he was in those 2 WB books, but i cant recall their titles.


I dunno, if anything the Emperor was again portrayed as an arsehole! Lorgar came across as being enlightened 



War!7H said:


> Blood Feud (sp?)


Blood Games :biggrin: - and yea i liked it 



War!7H said:


> The DA story made me hate the Calibanite DA's, and like you guys said, Lion just wanted the Terrans shadowed, kept under watch, etc.. it was just lame because although Belath was a Chapter Commander, Astelan had seniority over him, yet Belath continued to override that seniority and just totally turned me off to the Calibanite DA's.


Aye i really hated the Calibanite angels. Really made me think of the Lion as 'shady' aswell!


----------



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

good story but i can imagine that it will be reworked to freshen the details up and probably end up totally different in the sense of some of the facts changing. i cant see the emperor exterminate horus because of a terminator when he had already seen the angel dead on the floor. maybe this will turn out to be valdor or someone highly liked by the emperor, hell maybe even the saint teleported up too and that was her final task to get the emperor to act. (just a idea of mine, probs not even close)
i do get the sense that things will end up like wow i didnt see that coming when the final battle is published. maybe horus comes to his senses for a minute and tells the emperor to destroy him. it would be a great poetic end to such a fine friend and soldier (well before he turned anyway) anyway we got to wait along time before we find out so all these speculation threads will probs be forgotten by then lol.

as to how the custodes evaded people considering their size, its stated that they had a device that can change their outward appearance. its probably the same device that the emperor used in the last church. notice how he seemed like a normal man but the chair creaked and flexed like a person of far greater weight was sitting on it.
hope that helps clear that one up warsmith.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> good story but i can imagine that it will be reworked to freshen the details up and probably end up totally different in the sense of some of the facts changing.


Likely 



Unknown Primarch said:


> i cant see the emperor exterminate horus because of a terminator when he had already seen the angel dead on the floor. maybe this will turn out to be valdor or someone highly liked by the emperor, hell maybe even the saint teleported up too and that was her final task to get the emperor to act. (just a idea of mine, probs not even close)


I think the point is that he actually witnessed the death of the Terminator, where as Sanguinius was already dead before he arrived. But yes its obviously a valid point that the angel lying dead on the floor would have spurned the Emperor to act.



Unknown Primarch said:


> maybe horus comes to his senses for a minute and tells the emperor to destroy him. it would be a great poetic end to such a fine friend and soldier (well before he turned anyway) anyway we got to wait along time before we find out so all these speculation threads will probs be forgotten by then lol.


Personally i would not like it if in the end Horus realised he was 'wrong'. It would make a really bad ending for me, and would condemn Horus' ideals as false aswell. If Horus himself in the end believed he had been wrong, where does this leave the Chaos Marine idealists? Horus should be as a saviour to the Chaos Marines, sacrificing himself to lay low the Emperor and set the Imperium on the road to doom.  



Unknown Primarch said:


> as to how the custodes evaded people considering their size, its stated that they had a device that can change their outward appearance. its probably the same device that the emperor used in the last church. notice how he seemed like a normal man but the chair creaked and flexed like a person of far greater weight was sitting on it.
> hope that helps clear that one up warsmith.


I would put the Custodes ability to their skills and training, not some sort of device.

I was under the impression the Emperor used his psychic abilities to cloak and mask his 'true' appearance? There was a great discussion in some thread (could have been on warseer or B&C) which claimed that the Emperors true appearance would have been that of a old, frail man. But he used his abilities to cloak and enhance his true form to that of which he held most of the time (a giant in golden armour).


----------



## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

The only bit I didn't like about Tales of Heresy was having to read another bit of 30K Dark Angels fluff.


----------



## War$m!7H (Jun 20, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> as to how the custodes evaded people considering their size, its stated that they had a device that can change their outward appearance. its probably the same device that the emperor used in the last church. notice how he seemed like a normal man but the chair creaked and flexed like a person of far greater weight was sitting on it.
> hope that helps clear that one up warsmith.



ahh. that does explain a bit. thanks for explainging that =) must've sped over that >.>

Blood Fued, Blood Games, same thing :mrgreen:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I dunno, if anything the Emperor was again portrayed as an arsehole! Lorgar came across as being enlightened


I guess =/ i mean, the Emperor did let an old man kill himself xD


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

War!7H said:


> I guess =/ i mean, the Emperor did let an old man kill himself xD


He also came across as arrogant and pompous. He was soooo up his own arse! and enforced his ideals and ideologies onto everyone else. 

And Personally i was glad he came across like this, get rid of the almost universal view that he is 'godlike' and infallable.


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

The dark angle stuff did make me sadface.

tbh both Lorgar and the Emperor bothe seemed like jerks...now Angron was a guy to behold!


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I enjoyed the book overall, but there were a few things that annoyed me. Firstly, in _Blood Games_ they were using displacer fields to disguise themselves, but displacer fields are a type of power field that moves the user out of the way of a threat.

Also, I really didn't see how the story of Angron's introduction to his Legion has a whole lot of bearing on the Heresy. While a good story, I can't see how it fit in to a novel about the Heresy, which occured a long time after the story was set.

On the whole I enjoyed all the stories, but _The Last Church_ blew me away. I think this is the first time the Emperor has ever been an actual character in a BL story, and it really helps put some meat on the bones of his fluff.


----------



## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

I liked _Blood Games_ a lot simply because i love custodes. i do have to say though i was disappointed in that Dorn, the Custodes, and other Lucifer Blacks were fooled by one little shit Lucifer. I would have thought that out of all those at least ONE would have noticed he was traitor.

i liked the SW story, although it did make me sad that Bulveye did what he had to.

i cant say i enjoyd _The Voice_ because A) i didnt understand its relevence to the heresy B) i just didnt get it overall.

that _Scions of the Storm_ book liked as well, but all it made me feel is just how much more of a puss Lorgar is. I might have enjoyed it more had i read those other WB books, but sadly i havent.

as for the DA story, eh. ive never liked the DA but that story just made me dislike them even more, with that uptight Calabanite and all.

i loved the _The Last Church_. I have to say i was a disappointed in that the Emperor was portrayed as a complete asswipe. With those stories he was telling about those psycho crusades, i failed to see completely what he was doing was any different.

the WE story i thought was interesting because it shed some light on Angron's resentment towards the Emperor. Helps why he turned traitor.

The thing that REALLY annoyed me though was that the stories would get really good then BAM. story over. i think some of these could have been better off as their own books.


----------



## Graf Spee (Apr 29, 2009)

the book gets an overall 'ok' from me. what i really hate is those stupid depictings of the emperor. ben counter seems to be very fond of it. the emperor is a myth. and should stay this way. here he gets sculpted in the mind of a single author. this sucks big time. same in mechanicum. counter sucks. no style whatsoever.

best thing in the book is the story about angrons introduction into his legion. so very nicly written, good style, good hyperbole and so very blending into the heresy feeling. makes one understand the bondings of primarch and legion pretty good and the shaping of the legions to their masters nature as well. great story. good writer.


----------



## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

Is this DA short story going to tie into the next horus heresy book about the DA? There seem to be many open ends with a number of legions, but especially the dark angels. All the other legions have come into light in the HH novels or other book/lore, but with the exception of Luther's betrayal (depending on your view) we don't know a lot about the DA past. Any ideas?


----------



## Graf Spee (Apr 29, 2009)

Alias2003 said:


> Is this DA short story going to tie into the next horus heresy book about the DA? There seem to be many open ends with a number of legions, but especially the dark angels. All the other legions have come into light in the HH novels or other book/lore, but with the exception of Luther's betrayal (depending on your view) we don't know a lot about the DA past. Any ideas?


you haven't read 'descent of angels' apperently?


----------



## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

I read descent of angels. I didn't care for it much and I don't think it did much except set up for Luther's aparent betrayal.


----------



## Guilliman_40k (May 28, 2009)

Alias2003 said:


> I read descent of angels. I didn't care for it much and I don't think it did much except set up for Luther's aparent betrayal.



Then apperently you will be pleased to find out that there is a new sequel coming out for the Descent of Angels. Its called The Fallen Angels, and it will be coming out this fall.


----------



## Guilliman_40k (May 28, 2009)

As for me, I am a new member here obviously and have been very much into the Horus Heresy series. As I am sure you all have lol :grin:

As for the newest book Tales of Heresy I would have to say that my favorite story would have to be Wolf at the Door. It just had alot of action and favorable characters.

The other ones were okay but that was the one that I liked the best.

1. Blood Games: Eh this one was okay, I like the Custodes and all but I wish they would have gotten alot more personal with the characters

2.Wolf at the Door: I really liked this one, it really showed the ambition of the Space Wolves and the price that they are willing to pay to offer their service to the Emperor. By means of destroying stubborn allies mind you :shok:

3. Scions of the Storm: This one was also okay in my opinion, it was very intense and made me wonder at the technological advances of this world if they have a shield that is strong enough to withstand an orbital bombardment that wiped out 98% of the population. :clapping: Although Lorgar turns out to be an arse hole indeed

4. The Voice: Eh....not so much, sure it was interesting but just didnt really catch my attention that well. I mean who really cares about the Sisters of Silence lol jk :biggrin:

5. The Last Church: This one was pretty good, it showed the Emperor in both a negative and positive light. In his quest to eliminate mankind of religion he in turn creates a religion...ironic huh? lol :laugh:

6. After Deshea: This was my second favorite, there havent been very many stories about Angron or the World Eaters for that matter which I would like to see more of. It shows that Angron is dumb brute and that Kharn is badass that cant die lol


----------



## Guilliman_40k (May 28, 2009)

Missed one my bad....

Call of the Lion: Wasnt too bad but it sure clarify the split between the Calibanites and the Terrans.


----------

