# Dorn... a Thorn to the Emperor



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Rogal Dorn has great standing in the current part of the Horus Heresy. Even in the very first novel, it is actually stated that only Horus held more victories than he did. We have also witnessed how essential Dorn was against Horus during the heresy.

However, I go back to when in the first novel, it talks about how the Imperial Fists pretty much thought they were being punished by going back to Terra. I kind of dug my mind into why they would think such a thing and this is what I came up with.

I first figured, the borders of the Imperium, let alone Terra, were already impenetrable. So why bring an entire legion to Terra? Especially if it is the Emperor's intent to quickly reunite mankind. What better than a legion with the second best victories to finish off the Crusade quickly? I mean, the Emperor publicly humiliated Lorgar in front of the entire Imperium and called him the only failure of his brothers for not being productive throughout the Crusade. 

So I was thinking, perhaps Rogal Dorn... though he was one of the Biggest Imperium fan boys was actually becoming a thorn with cooperating with the other primarchs. First thing that comes to mind is that intiating incident he had with Curze. I ask myself if Dorn could have handled that situation better. Executions like that probably happened all the time. His relationship with Perturabo and the Iron Warriors was terrible. The incident with the executions could have really happened to about over half the legions. So I'm wondering where Dorn's relationship with most of his brothers really stood.

What do you guys think about their perspective about returning to Terra? How do you explain it?


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## Marshall Gabriel (Sep 17, 2011)

I think Dorn and his marines were good at building fortresses. So The Emp wanted them to upgrade his. Personally I think the Emp knew what was going to happen, and brought the IP back with him, so he (Emperor) could meet his fate, against his favored son.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I agree with Marshall, but I think there's also merit in the OP's statements. Dorn was one of the more conscientious primarchs. He really believed in the Imperial dream of making the universe a better place, a utopia without war or strife, where all mankind was united in a single purpose. He was a dreamer and an idealist.

These ideals started to clash more and more with the methods of the great crusade. When the Heresy began, Dorn would not have bent his ideology or done anything to tarnish his honor. In short, he was very vulnerable to his rebel brethren. It is also possible that the Imperial Fists could have significantly delayed the Heresy from coming to a head. I think the Emperor intentionally moved various legions out of Horus' path, in order to quicken the heresy and draw the heretic legions to Terra as quickly as possible and limit the damage they did to the empire.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

The big Emp wanted to pimp his house, yo. Thats why.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

jaysen said:


> I agree with Marshall, but I think there's also merit in the OP's statements. Dorn was one of the more conscientious primarchs. He really believed in the Imperial dream of making the universe a better place, a utopia without war or strife, where all mankind was united in a single purpose. He was a dreamer and an idealist.
> 
> These ideals started to clash more and more with the methods of the great crusade. When the Heresy began, Dorn would not have bent his ideology or done anything to tarnish his honor. In short, he was very vulnerable to his rebel brethren. It is also possible that the Imperial Fists could have significantly delayed the Heresy from coming to a head. I think the Emperor intentionally moved various legions out of Horus' path, in order to quicken the heresy and draw the heretic legions to Terra as quickly as possible and limit the damage they did to the empire.


If the Emperor knew there was going to be a heresy, that Horus was going to betray him, then why didn't he just meet with Horus, tell him that he knew what Horus was planning then annihilate him before the pantheon could make him a pain, or at least stop him from heresy. 

No I'm sorry if the Emperor knew there was going to be a heresy he would have handled it so much better, there was no way he knew about it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

so what your saying is "he was a _Dorn_ in the Emperor's side"


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't think they were displeased with going back to Terra.

There is a quote in Horus Rising I believe where Sigismund is talking to Loken and his Mournival and is in fact quite proud that he is going back to Terra to be with the Emperor.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still don't buy into the Emperor knowing that the Heresy was going to happen. i do see the logic though in getting the best Legion available to him to garrison the palace and fortify it when he was about to embark on the very perilous task of the webway


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've always had an inkling that the Emperor knew something big was going to happen, it may not of been Horus but he definitely foresaw a cataclysmic event on the Horizon. Due to this I think he brought one of his favoured sons with the ability to defend him the best and it just so happens it was Dorn.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> so what your saying is "he was a _Dorn_ in the Emperor's side"


:laugh:
that hit me in the perfect spot hahaha, amongst the best posts I've ever read

The Emperor wanted to upgrade his fortress. He was building the Webway to. He defiantly didn't know about the Heresy. All fluff supports the idea he didn't, thats why is is such a cataclysmic terrible thing, the fallen angels idea.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> i do see the logic though in getting the best Legion available to him to garrison the palace and fortify it when he was about to embark on the very perilous task of the webway


Adding to the above.
Maybe The Emperor did expect the Gods to Attack him due to the nature of his experiments but just didn't expect it to come in an unlikely form( Horus Heresy ).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I agree with the Angel of Blood. So he knows his favored son is going to turn on him,destroy his dream, his kingdom, the future he envisioned, and make all his worst nightmares comes true. To prepare for this all he does is get his son to build a better fortress on terra? If that's true that's stupidity on a universal scale."Oh, you're gonna betray me? Fine, take the entire armed forces and I'll have your brother build a more defensible palace." C'mon I know we've said some things seemed like the emperor was absent minded or a little dense, but no one is this stupid.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I agree with the Angel of Blood. So he knows his favored son is going to turn on him,destroy his dream, his kingdom, the future he envisioned, and make all his worst nightmares comes true. To prepare for this all he does is get his son to build a better fortress on terra? If that's true that's stupidity on a universal scale."Oh, you're gonna betray me? Fine, take the entire armed forces and I'll have your brother build a more defensible palace." C'mon I know we've said some things seemed like the emperor was absent minded or a little dense, but no one is this stupid.


I don't believe he foresaw the Heresy as it played out. I actually think the fact that he *didn't* see anything is what prompted him to recall the Fists to Terra. 

Think about it. This guy had spent millennia having an immense degree of foresight and suddenly his visions of the are all but blocked. He'd be foolish not to think something bad might be on its way, especially considering the kind of work he was about to undertake.

I think he was showing foresight of the non-psychic kind.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah and I think it's generally considered that Dorn would of been the best options out of all the Primarchs to call back to defend him. Definitely couldn't trust Pertruabo and imo Dorn showed himself to be a mature, thoughtful Primarch in that he never took a home world, didn't rename his legion and served the Emperor as a loyal son should.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah and I think it's generally considered that Dorn would of been the best options out of all the Primarchs to call back to defend him. Definitely couldn't trust Pertruabo and imo Dorn showed himself to be a mature, thoughtful Primarch in that he never took a home world, didn't rename his legion and served the Emperor as a loyal son should.


Actually Perturabo would've been the perfect choice to call back, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. The Emperor can count on Dorn to obey and remain loyal, not so much with Perturabo. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" or rather "Keep those you can trust close and those less trustworthy closer" as it were.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd rather have all my enemies attacking me at once than relying on the chance one of the most evil Primarchs may change his mind and properly defend me because I've finally showed him some love


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeeaaah whilst i understand 'keep your friends close' in alot of instances, that really doesn't work. One of those really big instances being when said enemy is in charge of your entire defences and could therefore bring it all crashing down around you in an instant.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Except that the main (almost exclusive) reason that Perturabo turned was because he wasn't chosen. If he was then he has limited reason to be bitter which closes him off (in addition to the distance involved) from being manipulated by the Word Bearers, which accounts for the rest of his betrayal. 

In other words, choosing Perturabo removes any and all reason he has for treason and gives him a strong reason to defend the Emperor (pride in his defences if not love), all without giving Dorn sufficient reason to turn. Sounds like a win-win to me.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Perturabo was a douche bag. He was jealous of Dorn before the Emperor made his choice and I think for once the Emperor could see a character flaw in one of his sons beisdes the obvious ones. Keeping your enemies close means to not let them out of your sight, not let them build your defenses and hope that they aren't mad enough to mess you over.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Except that the main (almost exclusive) reason that Perturabo turned was because he wasn't chosen.


Pretty sure it was because he was the only Primarch whose homeworld turned in rebellion against him which resulted in him slaughtering everyone there, making him realize he could not turn back to the Emperor afterwards.

Apparently Erebus was behind the rebellion on Olympia as well.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> Perturabo was a douche bag. He was jealous of Dorn before the Emperor made his choice and I think for once the Emperor could see a character flaw in one of his sons beisdes the obvious ones. Keeping your enemies close means to not let them out of your sight, not let them build your defenses and hope that they aren't mad enough to mess you over.


That contradicts the reasons I've always read for perturabo turning. Namely that he was bitter that his legion was nsplit into nickel and dime garrisons all across the galaxy, wasnt there like one world that was garrisoned in total by THREE Iron warriors. Factor in the fact that they were always thrown up against the toughest worlds to crack, and it's little wonder that perturabo turned. But Perturabo did have the last laugh with the Iron cage.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

That's what they were created for. It's like Mortarion complaining about being deployed in toxic environments. The man excelled at what he was made for. He thought he was meant for more and he wasn't. So he bitched when he wasn't promoted higher. He's the only primarch that grew up behaving like an asshole. Not a badass, warrior,philosopher, innovator, or a leader....an asshole. He didn't conquer anything until the Emperor showed up to my knowledge. He was a petulant child growing up and now he's a petulant Daemon Prince,but underneath all that Chaos Power he's still an asshole.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> That's what they were created for. It's like Mortarion complaining about being deployed in toxic environments. The man excelled at what he was made for. He thought he was meant for more and he wasn't. So he bitched when he wasn't promoted higher. He's the only primarch that grew up behaving like an asshole. Not a badass, warrior,philosopher, innovator, or a leader....an asshole. He didn't conquer anything until the Emperor showed up to my knowledge. He was a petulant child growing up and now he's a petulant Daemon Prince,but underneath all that Chaos Power he's still an asshole.


 
I disagree, he pretty much conquered Olympia for his adoptive father IIRC, which is where he learned siege craft. And all the Primarchs had thier asshole moments when it gets right down to it.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Really? Sanguinius. Go ahead and tell me how liberating Baal, supporting Horus, fighting like a madman on the walls injured at the palace siege and confronting a chaos gods possessed Horus shows he's an asshole. The guy that was like a father to Perturabo never had the affection he showed the boy returned and everyone around thought that Peturabo was an asshole. Maybe things would have been different for Conrad or Lion if they would have started out with a guy showing them paternal affection. Yeah most of them had their moments but this guy did it 24/7. It even said that most of the others kept their distance from him due to his geek affinity and him being a jerk. The only guy I ever saw speak with him cordially was the Lion in the situation of their mutually beneficial deal, which Johnson got screwed on.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> Really? Sanguinius. Go ahead and tell me how liberating Baal, supporting Horus, fighting like a madman on the walls injured at the palace siege and confronting a chaos gods possessed Horus shows he's an asshole. The guy that was like a father to Perturabo never had the affection he showed the boy returned and everyone around thought that Peturabo was an asshole. Maybe things would have been different for Conrad or Lion if they would have started out with a guy showing them paternal affection. Yeah most of them had their moments but this guy did it 24/7. It even said that most of the others kept their distance from him due to his geek affinity and him being a jerk. The only guy I ever saw speak with him cordially was the Lion in the situation of their mutually beneficial deal, which Johnson got screwed on.


In all fairness we haven't really seen Sanguinious in the heresy yet, but every other primarch we've seen detailed in the heresy novels so far is either a raging ego maniac or has thier douche moments. I mean so far Alpharius has been the only primarch detailed so far who hasnt seemed like a raging douche nozzle at least half the time, and even then we don't know whether it was Alpharius or not.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the majority of the primarchs were douche bags. They let a lowly astartes fool them into killing each other and attempting to kill their father? What?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty sure it was because he was the only Primarch whose homeworld turned in rebellion against him which resulted in him slaughtering everyone there, making him realize he could not turn back to the Emperor afterwards.
> 
> Apparently Erebus was behind the rebellion on Olympia as well.


Indeed slaughtering the loyal populace of his home world in an engineered rebellion was the final straw in turning Perturabo. However, if Perturabo was stationed on Terra he would not have been able to lead that attack meaning he would not have had any reason to feel guilty afterwards. Further, Erebus would likely not have orchastrated that rebellion as he would know/expect that it would have a far lesser impact on Perturabo and the Iron Warriors.



Deadeye776 said:


> Keeping your enemies close means to not let them out of your sight, not let them build your defenses and hope that they aren't mad enough to mess you over.


Except that Perturabo wasn't acutally an enemy but rather a slightly less trusted son. Allowing one of the finest defensive minds in the entire history of man to build your fortress as a reward for centuries of service is a good idea. Choosing the one that actually needs that positive reinforcement is just good sense.



Deadeye776 said:


> That's what they were created for. It's like Mortarion complaining about being deployed in toxic environments. The man excelled at what he was made for. He thought he was meant for more and he wasn't. So he bitched when he wasn't promoted higher.


Perturabo, like every Primarch, was built to be a conqueor and warrior-general. Not a technician and babysitter. It's true that he was good at seiges but this is hardly justification for throwing him at every single problem that looks hard. Sieges are hard work and bloody but Perturabo seemed to enjoy them as they allowed him to show his ability. What he didn't like was the fact that his brothers and father refused to recognize his ability and instead kept handing him harder and harder fortresses while depriving him of more and more of his men. He saw the recognition he craved go to men who he felt deserved it less while he was forced through meat-grinder after meat-grinder. Is it any wonder he felt jealous?



> He's the only primarch that grew up behaving like an asshole. Not a badass, warrior,philosopher, innovator, or a leader....an asshole. He didn't conquer anything until the Emperor showed up to my knowledge. He was a petulant child growing up and now he's a petulant Daemon Prince,but underneath all that Chaos Power he's still an asshole.


He conquered his planet and did so in a manner no different to many other Primarchs. It's too bad he wasn't more social but are you really surprised?



Deadeye776 said:


> The guy that was like a father to Perturabo never had the affection he showed the boy returned and everyone around thought that Peturabo was an asshole.


So the fact that a boy who was ten-feet tall by the age of five and whos mind worked at levels his 'teachers' could barely comprehend felt alienated is surprising to you? Perturabo was a man driven by logic because he couldn't be driven by emotion. It simply was never a part of who he was. That's a tragedy, not a reason to bitch at him.



> It even said that most of the others kept their distance from him due to his geek affinity and him being a jerk. The only guy I ever saw speak with him cordially was the Lion in the situation of their mutually beneficial deal, which Johnson got screwed on.


So the fact that a child who was a world conquer in a decade had trouble talking to people is a surprise to you? Stupid Perturabo, not getting blessed with unnatural charisma like some of his brothers, what an ass.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I still don't buy into the Emperor knowing that the Heresy was going to happen. i do see the logic though in getting the best Legion available to him to garrison the palace and fortify it when he was about to embark on the very perilous task of the webway


I see what you're saying but if their was seriously a disturbance in the webway, only the Emperor would be able to hold off the tides of daemons. Not even the Imperial Fist legion would be able to delay them for that long.

If anything building a fortress around a place that could potentially sprout an infinite flood of daemons isn't the best idea. If they had built the fortress around the golden throne and webway I could see what your saying. But if its at the heart of the Imperium. Then I'm afraid I don't entirely see the logic. 

I really don't think the Emperor was at all ready for anything wrong to happen to his webway.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

No one Perturabo. Spin it however you want. Even the Lion said in Age of Darkness that he and Curze had something in common. Perturabo never connected with anyone to my knowledge. His brothers, his father, or anyone. I've looked and searched it seems even the primarchs that were way out there found somone who thought they were cool at some point. Perturabo "The lumbering engineer" was always looked at like a douche. You can cite the Iron Cage incident as a great victory against what I see as a suicidal Dorn. His death (Dorn's) was a last ditch dash at the command room of the lead battle ship of a black crusade. Obviously the guy was going through some personal stuff. Nothing about Perturabo is going always be a douche and everyone who's met him thinks so. Spin it however you like.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I thought he called Dorn back because he had another project to work on. So why would he choose someone he has to keep an eye on. Dorn was logical because he often called other to justice and played as home guard for the Emperor while he worked on his project. Remember he locked himself away from them all which is why they were all sad. Dorn was a logical choice to bring back.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> No one Perturabo. Spin it however you want. Even the Lion said in Age of Darkness that he and Curze had something in common. Perturabo never connected with anyone to my knowledge. His brothers, his father, or anyone. I've looked and searched it seems even the primarchs that were way out there found somone who thought they were cool at some point. Perturabo "The lumbering engineer" was always looked at like a douche. You can cite the Iron Cage incident as a great victory against what I see as a suicidal Dorn. His death (Dorn's) was a last ditch dash at the command room of the lead battle ship of a black crusade. Obviously the guy was going through some personal stuff. Nothing about Perturabo is going always be a douche and everyone who's met him thinks so. Spin it however you like.


Ah, but look at how everyone perceived Lorgar before _The First Heretic_, and even Angron is being shown light on if you read _The Outcast Dead_. I feel your being very vague. We don't really know to what degree he was distant. And just because he is distant to most, there might be a chance he was close to a brother or two.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> Ah, but look at how everyone perceived Lorgar before _The First Heretic_, and even Angron is being shown light on if you read _The Outcast Dead_. I feel your being very vague. We don't really know to what degree he was distant. And just because he is distant to most, there might be a chance he was close to a brother or two.


I agree, if even Lorgar, had a friend in Magnus, I'm sure Perturabo did as well.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

C'mon really? I'm sure someone maybe thought Gulliman wasn't a complete asshole.If we are going to speculate that it's a possibility than that's another argument entirely.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Emperors Mercy said:


> I thought he called Dorn back because he had another project to work on. So why would he choose someone he has to keep an eye on. Dorn was logical because he often called other to justice and played as home guard for the Emperor while he worked on his project. Remember he locked himself away from them all which is why they were all sad. Dorn was a logical choice to bring back.


Remember, at the time that the Emperor called Dorn back to re-enforce Terra, there was nothing suspect going on in Perturabo. His resentment was building but it was certainly not the bubbling font of malice it would become shortly after this decision. In other words, there is no reason why the Emperor would've felt he needed to keep an eye on Perturabo. You are all applying knowledge gained as a result of events that haven't occured yet. We know that Perturabo is not to be trusted, because we know he turned traitor. This hasn't happened yet though and the Emperor doesn't suspect that it will. What he should suspect is that Perturabo is getting frustrated with his lack of recognition, Perturabo had made that quite clear. The logic way to avoid bad relations between the two is to offer Perturabo some recognition, namely by allowing him to design the fortress. Clearly however, the Emperor has shown that he doesn't care about his sons feelings towards him. There is no good reason however to select Dorn over Perturabo.



Deadeye776 said:


> C'mon really? I'm sure someone maybe thought Gulliman wasn't a complete asshole.If we are going to speculate that it's a possibility than that's another argument entirely.


1) Lots of the Primarch's didn't think Guilliman was a 'complete asshole'.
2) This whole thread is speculation.
3) Assuming that one, and only one, Primarch had no friends just because he seems cold and distant is pretty far fetched. Psycho-killer Curze had friends, grim and morbid Mortarion had friends, cold and distant Ferrus had friends. Why wouldn't Perturabo?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with *MEQinc*. If anything, I would say the Emperor trusted Perturabo more than most. He was one of the primarchs that bowed to the Emperor easier than most of the primarchs. The Emperor even forced Perturabo to garrison and give his influence to many loyal planets. But why the Emperor would waste the Primarch and legions talents on worlds that bear little to no significance is beyond me. 

I mean sure in large number it is significant. And we see this during and after the heresy. But in the end, Perturabo is the technological genius of them all, and the Iron Warriors are a legion.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

@MEQinc and CKcrawford

You're right he might be better than Dorn for the choice of reenforcing his palace. The only other possible logic I could bring up would be maybe if he was the best, you continue to put him on the front lines. Same as Horus to lead his Armies. You place your best assets out and us whatever else is available. 

And I don't any Primarchs hated each other. Its the idea that they had qualms. I mean there is a difference between not liking someone and thinking they have a stick up their butt. At the end of the day, they were brothers. Like in the Lightening Tower as Dorn goes over what he fears, all those feeling were brought up. In fact I think he ponders if he would join the rebelion himself or not.


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