# Im a Marine and Where is my Chainsword.



## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

So what happened to the bolter and chainsword days? I got into marines thinking they were a universal jack of all trades army, not exactly specialized in shooting or melee but a combo of both.

Seeing all the artwork and hearing all the fluff Im surprised with how shooty marines actually seem to be unless you go a specialized chapter like space wolves or blood angels. 

It seems like GW stripped the normal average melee unit from marines because of these specialized chapters. Why don't are normal boys have a chainsword? Like chaos? Were paying 16 pts a pop you'd think wed at least get a chainsword.

Now yes we do have close combat terminators, but they need to be in a transport to be effective normally or they can be avoided and kited. And thats looking at around 500 pts. Im just talking about the run of t he mill marine with bolter and pistol even! We don't have the option to ditch our bolter for a chainsword.


Now we have scouts that can do that, but have no option for transport; and more then likely going to become fodder or meat shield. 

The only thing I can really see is filling up a rhino with assault troops who ditched their jump packs..But even then 10 assault troops with a power fist in a rhino is almost exactly the same points as 10 marines with PF in rhino. So in order for us to get a couple chainswords we have to use up a fast attack slot and lose the ability to hold objectives.

Now I know im not getting anywhere with this, just more less a rant because Im jealous the average run of the mill chaos marine has a chainsword, bolter, bolt pistol ect, and is only 15 pts, and were paying 16 and get cut short. Unless of coarse I'm missing something


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## Cleitus_the_Black (Jun 8, 2009)

Shhhh. GW might hear you and take away my CCW. Then where would I be? One attack less.


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## Conan2185 (Apr 22, 2008)

Eric.West said:


> Now I know im not getting anywhere with this, just more less a rant because Im jealous the average run of the mill chaos marine has a chainsword, bolter, bolt pistol ect, and is only 15 pts, and were paying 16 and get cut short. Unless of coarse I'm missing something


The basic Chaos Marine doesn't have ATSKNF or combat tactics. seems like a fair trade off for what ammounts to +1 A and a 1 point discount.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah... but everybody loves extra attacks. If you want to go combat happy; take shrike and make all your units fleet. Then give everybody a flamer and melta.Start 12" away from deployment. Move 6", run D6, and assault the remaining 6" If within range. Try staying in cover/defended obstacles so the other guys can't shoot or charge as well. Shoot your bolt pistols and special weapons on the charge and pound everybody into the dirt. Works for me.

...Or do the smart thing and play BA:laugh:


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## TwoKill (Feb 7, 2009)

It would actually be nice if we could field space marines with either a bolter and bolt pistol or a bolter and chainsword. We don't need the third weapon just let us choose between taking a bolt gun or a chainsword for an entire unit.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

I miss 4th ed SM. :no: Lots more to play with there...


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Conan2185 said:


> The basic Chaos Marine doesn't have ATSKNF or combat tactics. seems like a fair trade off for what ammounts to +1 A and a 1 point discount.


Pffft... they don't lose CC for ATSKNF to matter. Most of them are fearless anyway, and I don't feel bad that their squads of 20 can't combat squad down to 4 units of 5. The fielding two assault weapons is sort of... well awesome, and a mark of nurgle to give your CSM T5 and still maintain a cheaper cost than the 'nilla marine... well it goes on. If I weren't such a diehard BA fan, I'd totally go CSM, laughing all the way to the GW store at 'nilla marines. 

I don't understand from a conceptual/fluff standpoint how one army (CSM vs. SM) has invented a sheath for the chainsword, and the other hasn't. I guess that when Guilliman wrote the tactics for all space marines to follow he forgot to include "oh, and you can put a sword on the bottom of your bolter, or in a big sheath on your back".

I'm a pretty big advocate of the, "you can't compare units within one army to units within another, because the interactions within one army are just different vs. another army's internal interactions" mentality though.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

i thought that chainswords gave no other benefit then being just a normal CCW? so why can't you just model your marines to hold bolter in one hand, chainsword in the other if there's no rule problem with it

P.S.
Spaced, i love the sig!


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks.

You get a bonus attack for having a Chainsword, along with a Pistol.

Then naturally your shootiness is derived from your bolter.

SM get a bolter (serg may replace bolter with chainsword), and bolt pistol. CSM get a bolter, chainsword, and a bolt pistol.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

strange, in the IG codex it just says CCW, so basically any IG with a CCW in their wargear option can be modeled with a chainsword.

But if the SM codex specifically mentions chainsword then i guess your stuck.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, Sisters just get a bolter, no bolt pistol, no close combat weapon, no nothing.

So quit complaining


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> strange, in the IG codex it just says CCW, so basically any IG with a CCW in their wargear option can be modeled with a chainsword.
> 
> But if the SM codex specifically mentions chainsword then i guess your stuck.


Most people don't split hairs over CCWs I've found. As long as it's shown on the model, and provided PWs look like PWs, PFs look like PFs, and so on. Most people tend not to care what flavor of CCW you use. SM scouts have "combat blades" but they yield no different bonus from Chainswords and chainswords are no different bonus from any other CCW. The only stipulation is if you end up with two CCWs you get the bonus attack, and pistols count for the second CCW.

Of course... when you're a ten foot tall genetically engineered space warriors from space in the grim darkness of the grim dark future... doesn't a chainsword just look the best? That is imagery-wise I dig the chainswords. I like to model mine with exhaust pipes, ripcords, laser sights, and fuzzy dice coming off of them.


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Well, Sisters just get a rending bolters (sometimes), no bolt pistol, no close combat weapon, no nothing.
> 
> So quit complaining


There we go, fixed. Though, your sisters could use an update before some of the other armies out there.

But I'm not actually complaining, just commentating. I always go back to the different armies just work differently within their own rules/setup.


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> strange, in the IG codex it just says CCW, so basically any IG with a CCW in their wargear option can be modeled with a chainsword.
> 
> But if the SM codex specifically mentions chainsword then i guess your stuck.


Guardsmen don't need chainswords, they have their _fists of fury_! :laugh:

Anyway though, I think it's pretty even. I mean, if you're shooting with your bolters you won't be assaulting anyway. That, and Space Marines do get a lot of special rules and stuff. Of course, CSM have their marks and so on... hm, it's hard to say who's getting the better deal actually...


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Guardsmen have 3 great weapons at their disposal.. Their Lasgun, Their Bayonet, and their Imperial Uplifting Primer. 
Insert Pointy end with stabbing motion, repeat until dead.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

the Uplifting Primer has a pointy bit?:shok:

and fuzzy dice on a chainsword? what colour (or color depending on region)

but i do like the look of chainswords, bit i have always found it funny on how a bayonet wielded by a guardsmen is equal to a chainsword wielded by a space marine, might try and model a chaintonfa, or chain nun-chaku (or nun-chuck or whatever the hell the bits of wood connecteds by a chain is called)


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

SpacedGhost said:


> Most of them are fearless anyway


Yeah, those CSM are more around 20+ pts, and not all of them get Bolter, BP, and CCW.

For my standard CSM I'd love to be able to rally under 1/2 strength. CSM who fail thier moral can be killed by a single dice roll, unlike SM. My unit of 20 can be obliterated by a unit of 5, if I fail combat. 

Just wait till the newest version of the CSM codex comes out, then everyone has something to cry about as the power of the dex becomes 10 fold *Mwahahaha*


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

A unit of 20 CSM are not going to lose combat to 5 'nilla marines. If the CSM do lose combat to them, they need to sacrifice another planet to the (Chaos) dice gods, add some skulls to the throne, and acquire some blood for the blood god. I understand there's exaggerations abound in this lighthearted conversation, but let's consult math to see how desperate a chance the SM stand:

5 Standard SM get the assault on 20 CSM (we're giving the SM the advantage of the assault; someone has to charge first). 4 marines and a Serg attack for 11 total attacks: 

That's 5.5 hits, yielding 2.25 wounds, which turns into .75 unsaved wounds after the CSM roll armor saves. 

CSM attack at same init with 20 guys. 

40 Attacks occur (we didn't buy a skull champ, but we have those magical CCW+Pistol+bolter), 20 successful hits, 10 successful attempts to wound, and 3.3333 unsaved wounds to the SM. 

Now, the SM have lost combat and on average will lose the LD check to stay and fight. No Retreat kicks in, instead of sweeping advance and they have to make armor saves based on how many wounds they lost combat by. They probably suffer one more wound. Next turn the remaining SM fails to do anything of note and is obliterated by the 20 CSM. If we add in a mark of nurgle it becomes an even more desperate battle for the SM. Adding a PW, the Serg in the SM will kill one more CSM. Either way 20 CSM still win combat.

I didn't mean to Mathhammer there, but I felt I needed to point out how astronomically low of a chance 5 SM stand to wipe out 20 basic CSM. Though there *is *a chance that it could happen so you're not wrong. One die roll *could *wipe out 20 CSM, but it's not likely to. Of course, the SM deserve to die for assaulting a unit near 3 times their cost (though still cheaper per model).

Those CSM that have fearless aren't above 20 points per model soley because of fearless, there's a lot more awesome going on. Plague Marines for instance have to be just about one of the toughest damn Troop selections to uproot from an objective. Berzerkers, and Thousand Sons are the only two that don't get the CCW, Bolter, and BP. I think Thousands Sons are about one of the most conceptually awesome units in the entire game, but I won't contest that they need some help. Thousand Sons are not worth their point cost right now, at least I wouldn't run them. Berzerkers... well when you go to SM training camp they spend a lot of time with a chalk board, and one of those long pointer stick thingies, pointing between a squad of Khorne Berzerkers, their transport, and a big gun. "Khorne Berzerkers are carried in a Chaos Rhino. The Chaos Rhino you shoot with a big gun." Of the troop choices, only the basic CSM troop doesn't have fearless, but they do have higher leadership than 'nilla Marines.

I'm not disputing that ATSKNF is good. It's awesome, never being sweeping advanced is pretty rad. Auto-rallying is also cool, more importantly auto-rallying and moving more than 3" is awesome. That you're even able to make the checks below 50% unit strength is basically stellar. I guess in the end, I'm actually agreeing with you though. CSM *can *be wiped out in a single dice roll, ATSKNF *is *awesome. Your army is still awesome, I guess you anticipate it getting more awesome, and I can't see it getting worse.

But as for where the OPs chainsword went, it's with the CSM now. They got majority custody in the split. Marine players may visit it on the weekends.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Statistics have nothing to do with it.
You haven't seen my rolls. I've lost 5 Terminators in 1 round of standard SM firing (assault squad, 7 bp's 2 PP's, both PP's missed)
Thats right, I failed 5 2+ armor saves in 1 roll.

I've also kicked the arse of a Nob biker squad with 1 unit of 1kSuns on thier charge. They fled and I got to run them down. (10 bikers left). I made every singe save and he failed every FnP roll. That and I Force weaponed his warboss.

Besides all the SM player has to do is get more kills than you do, and that is all in the armor saves in the long run. If I kill 3 and you kill 5, doesn't matter if I had 20, you win. I run, you chase, BOOM 15 guys gone.
I never specified nilla marines, I never specified charges.
What if those 5 were death company on the charge?
What if those 5 were plauge marines w/ FnP...
What if those 5 were Ork biker nobs?

There are many scenarios, and bad dice rolls that would cause a large unit to fail.

If you look at my sideline I play Salamanders, pre-Vulkan (for the record), though I'm in the process of building a 1kSons army, which has reached over 2500 pts and is still growing. (mostly because I build a unit, play with it, and then swap things around for later versions)


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

mrrshann618 said:


> What if those 5 were death company on the charge?


Well that's obvious, the CSM die... Death Company are sweet.

Oh, and I agree. The dice can do terrible things to people. Statistically when my friend assaulted 8 of my tactical marines with 12 genestealers he should've crushed them. What happened was 5 full game turns of the most pathetic slap fight I've ever witnessed. No one was dying, no one was winning... just the SM and Genestealers turning their heads away and flailing their arms in front of their faces. I only make that reference as it was my most recent example of just... dumb rolling. Unlike normal stupid rolling it occurred for both players over a ridiculously long period of time.

I'm sorry, I meant to speak in non-specific terms about CSM. The "your army" was meant as a non-specific second person. Any "you" that plays CSM.

Part of what makes this game great is the chance to overcome amazing odds. If we just used the Law of Averages for everything it wouldn't be fun... and in a *fist* fight Mephiston would beat Abaddon. You can't claim one army is just better than another. Each army has a chance. Sometimes it's a small one, and sometimes it feels like you're playing rock, paper, scissors, but it's usually a good time. And by rock, paper, scissors I mean:

"Crap... my army sucks against, MCs, but I have a good chance against swarm." 

or 

"Man, my army is built for well rounded play, but doesn't have much to do against THIS many tanks."

With Missions a lot of stuff can change too, as you often find yourself playing the mission as much as you play your opponent.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SpacedGhost said:


> A lot of things which completely fail to take into account a lot of logical things.


Why the HELL would you have a squad of 5 marines charge 20 CSM?
You'd have to be bloody looney to be in that situation anyway!

First of all, you've got a minimum squad of normal SM with no sergeant upgrades (uncommon), and no shooting before they charge pitted against a MAXIMUM squad of CSM with no upgrades.
That's a ridiculous comparison!

Second, what does that even prove?

10 marines charge 10 CSM, let's say they both have a Sarge with PW and pistol, and CSM have an icon of Chaos Glory (reroll morale).

10 marines fire pistols, 6.666 hits, 3.333 wounds, 1.111 (1) failed saves.
Then they strike at even initiative.

Marines:
4 PW attacks, 2 hit, 1 wounds, 2 CSM dead.
18 regular attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 fail (2, rounded), 4 CSM dead.

CSM:
3 PW attacks, 1.5 hit, 0.75 (1) wounds, 1 SM dead.
16 regular attacks (remember that bolt pistol?), 8 hit, 4 wound, 1.333 failed saves (rounds to 1), 2 SM dead.

CSM lost by 2, they take a morale test at Ld 8, and reroll a fail.
They stand a 30.625% chance of failing BOTH morale checks, and then there's the sweep.
21/36 chance, which is a 58.333% chance of them being wiped out.
Factoring the sweep chance into the chance of them failing morale, that's a 17.864% chance of them being wiped out by sweep.

Now, that's assuming an average combat result.
I could spend a WHOLE day figuring out EXACTLY the chance of the CSM being wiped out by sweep, dying in combat, or from shooting, and could easily separate these results, but that would take a whole day and I couldn't be stuffed.
The point is, the ability to NOT get sweeping advanced is INCREDIBLY USEFUL, do not underestimate it.
(I've already figured out exactly the chance of a lone charging SM sarge with Fist killing a Defiler in melee, it took me about 5 hours, it was about 1/7 (I think it was JUST lower, like .00005 difference or something))


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Lol chaos marines can have 3 attacks each, and you poor loyalists have to go divergent chapters just to get 2 lolz.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

The Tactical Squads should have a chainsword as part of their standard equipment. They okay in CC but nowhere near they should be. Tactical squads should be good for both CC and shooting, they only good for shooting atm.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

They really do need a CCW, its stupid that Guardsmen have as many attacks in HTH as a tactical marine. A tactical marine is supposed to have served in the Devastator and Assault squad unit. They are supposed to be a jack of all trade, it's stupid they are not. 

CSM may not be fearless but you have damn near leadership 10 across the table, which is higher than space marines, and have the best troop choices in the game. Also daemon princes that are cheaper than space marine captains. And to boot your troops are cheaper.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Quit your whinein, at least you aren't a guardie.


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## Mikeybx (Jul 8, 2009)

Eric.West said:


> Seeing all the artwork


Now every Artwork i,ve seen with chainswords and bolt pistol alll seem to be ona commander or major not a normal space marin, yeh there the ones around him with BOLTERS :biggrin:


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Taggerung said:


> They really do need a CCW, its stupid that Guardsmen have as many attacks in HTH as a tactical marine. A tactical marine is supposed to have served in the Devastator and Assault squad unit. They are supposed to be a jack of all trade, it's stupid they are not.


Yep this annoys me too, this is a graphical representation of fluff and tabletop.

Tabletop |-----------------------------------------------------------| Fluff 

The whole thing should be played with D10s, there's just not enough variation between stat lines. Seriously if a Marine scout met a guardsman I think the scout would just kill himself.

You mean I've been through all this (abduction, induction, surgery etc) and I'm only a _little _bit better than this guy that just rolled out of basic training? *BOOM*!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Epic Fail said:


> The whole thing should be played with D10s, there's just not enough variation between stat lines. Seriously if a Marine scout met a guardsman I think the scout would just kill himself.
> 
> You mean I've been through all this (abduction, induction, surgery etc) and I'm only a _little _bit better than this guy that just rolled out of basic training? *BOOM*!


...
Whut?

That Strength and Toughness bonus means THE WORLD to small-arms fire.

And really, just because a model is removed doesn't mean it's DEAD, just incapacitated.
A Space Marine could have been shot in the head and knocked out cold, had his backpack damaged so his suit froze up, a whole range of things.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Am I the only who is annoyed that Marines with their codex went up in cost to get a BP/Grenades, and the Guard went down in pts and got their grenades as well? Seriously, what is the point of assault through cover rules when every new codex has it standard now?


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## Crimson_Chin (Feb 20, 2009)

Tag - grenades just usually weren't standard. And they still aren't, on a lot of units. That doesn't mean assault through cover is ANYWHERE near useless. Ork mob charges you, do you want to be striking at equal initiative? Damn right you don't.

Properly equipped soldiers have grenades. The greens and buggers don't. I don't see any problem with this.

What I do see a problem with is the fact that equal squads of CSM and SM (meaning flamer, ML, PF) cost the same but every chaos marine gets an extra attack. I simply do not see how that can be explained, in terms of game balance. Forget fluff.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Um, i think the answer is Assault on Black Reach.

people going out and buying two or three boxes of tactical squads that have 8 guys with no choice but a bolter. that plsu any guys they had with bolters before is more than 24 marines on the table with bolters which is at least two full squads without the heavy weapon and flamer guys. 

if you just buy a tactical squad box there are enough pieces to make them all close combat or long range, or a mix of the two no matter what chapter you are.

also many who play the game aren't as into the modeling aspect or fluff aspect of the hobby as others; so they just throw togeather marines with bolters because they find it fast and easy, perhaps.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Crimson_Chin said:


> Tag - grenades just usually weren't standard. And they still aren't, on a lot of units. That doesn't mean assault through cover is ANYWHERE near useless. Ork mob charges you, do you want to be striking at equal initiative? Damn right you don't.
> 
> Properly equipped soldiers have grenades. The greens and buggers don't. I don't see any problem with this.
> 
> What I do see a problem with is the fact that equal squads of CSM and SM (meaning flamer, ML, PF) cost the same but every chaos marine gets an extra attack. I simply do not see how that can be explained, in terms of game balance. Forget fluff.


I am talking about how the last 3 codex's to come out have all had grenades as part of their main troopers gear, by default without any need to pay for it. Also, it doesn't make initiative the same, it makes you go at the appropriate initiative.

As for the CSM vs SM thing, ya that is bullshit, especially since they also have higher leadership. Granted they don't have ATSKNF, but my guard playing friend brought up an interesting thing. The loyalist are much shootier than chaos, so instead of giving them a CCW, he thinks making them relentless would fix a lot of the problems with the codex, and make tactical squads much more viable than they are now. Granted you must raise the cost, but still. It would be interesting to try out.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok, one solution to your problem-Black Templars!! (free choice between ccw and ranged weapons, rerolls 2 hit in cc (with vow) and a possible 20 man squad and 10 of those are cannon fodder tat u want to lose because you then get to run faster toward the enemy!!) So theres problem solved. As for the chaos bitches-shoot 'em!

For a fully kitted squad for anti infantry, thats a possible:
26 normal attacks (+incoming bolt pistols and flamer)
3 power weapon attacks (+incoming bolt pistol)
30 neophyte attacks (+incoming bolt pistols)

Thats a maximum possible kill amount of 22 kills from range (assuming flamer kills 3) and 59 cc kills making for a possible of 81 kills in one turn. Rawr!!


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> Thats a maximum possible kill amount of 22 kills from range (assuming flamer kills 3) and 59 cc kills making for a possible of 81 kills in one turn. Rawr!!


Haha, yeah it sounds REALLY impressive when you say how many kills you COULD get. Lets apply the same principle to a 30 mob of boyz, (sluggas) thats 30 possible ranged kills, and 120 possible CC kills, 150 kills in one turn....WAAAAGH!

Ahem, but lets be sensible because that will never happen due to dice friction (my terminology for all failed to hit/wound/saved rolls).

Back on topic, I agree that loyalists should be able to become more CC-ish, swap the bolter for a chainsword, why not? Or make them able to charge after firing their bolters, (is there a name for this rule?) maybe make them 17 points in that case.


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