# Iacton Qruze



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I was wondering what rank this dude had before the Luna Wolves were re-united with Horus? Has it been mentioned anywhere?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Being a unifcation era astartes, yet still Cthonian then i would have thought he would have startes as at least a sergeant, if not captain. But then his philosiphies and personality kept him from rising any higher.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

What pattern of armor would he have worn before they found Horus?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Presumably Crusade armour, as that came in after the Sol system was in control.


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## palefire (Jul 30, 2011)

He was a captain while in the Luna Wolves. I have no idea before they re-united with Horus. Where would you find that out?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nowhere, just got assume from the few details we know about Qruzes early history.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Being a unifcation era astartes, yet still Cthonian then i would have thought he would have startes as at least a sergeant, if not captain. But then his philosiphies and personality kept him from rising any higher.


Was he actually cthonian? I thought he was one of the earliest marines produced on Terra. If he was cthonian there wouldn't have been any of the questions regarding marine's longevity that seemed to arise, as the terran marines would be that much older than any of the marines produced from the primarchs planets.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He was definetly Cthonian. Cthonia is relatively close to the Sol system and seemingly had some men taken to take part in the Unification Wars before the Astartes were even created, then more being taken afterwards to the Luna Labs to become astartes, hence the name Luna Wolves.


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## Gigantor (Jun 21, 2009)

I was just reading Horus rising again and it says that he was a Captain of the legion prior to the finding of Horus. So he would have been Terran and most likely MK II armor. But it also said that the 10th company were all clad in MK IV power armor on 63-19. It stands to reason that the Warmaster's entire legion had MK IV.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

He was not Terran. He was Cthonian.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Definetly Cthonian, and yeah he would have had MkIV at 63-19. But he would gave likely had MkII when reunited with Horus


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## Lima6 (Sep 30, 2008)

So let me get this straight... The emp took cthonians back to terra (or Luna) and converted them into astartes (or proto- astartes) but was this before or after the creation of the primarchs. I assume it was before otherwise baby Horus would have been on cthonia when the imperials took the initiates away. Is this all referenced in Horus rising as I must admit I don't remember it?

Any answers much appreciated!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Cthonia was within reach of even non-warp capable ships. And to quote IA:



> Fierce gangs inhabited the lawless depths of Cthonia, enjoying freedom from the rigours of Imperial citizenship; but at the time of the First Founding they provided an easy source of Human specimens whom nobody would miss. One report talks of so-called 'recruitment squads' rounding up thousands of gangers and shipping them away, chained together in the holds of prison-shuttles, to geno-laboratories on Luna. Here they were modified using the genetic code of the Primarch Horus. It is more common for Space Marine genetic stock to be gleaned from feral or primitive worlds, however after the usual hypno-psychological indoctrination process, the Luna Wolves recruits emerged as excellent and ferociously loyal specimens.


The infant Horus could very well have been on Cthonia when the Imperium was taking citizens from it, they just didn't know it. Presumably some would have been taken before even the Primarchs were created and whilst they were being created, which would explain how Qruze fought in the Unification wars and then went on to be an astartes, seemingly not a perfect example of one however(at least biologically) further supporting the theory that he was amongst the first.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

While I fully agree with Angel of Blood's fluff analysis, I've always suspected Qruze's Cthonian status was a mistake; Abnett implies he's Terran with the Unification warrior stuff, then Counter (IIRC) made him Cthonian. 
I think it's just lucky we can handwave it by using the reference to Cthonia being within reach for non-warpships, as Emperor-era Terrans scooting off to other planets and back before the Great Crusade hasn't really be established at all.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

> Abnett implies he's Terran with the Unification warrior stuff, then Counter (IIRC) made him Cthonian.


I suppose this is another example of inconsistency as a result of different authours


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Mob said:


> While I fully agree with Angel of Blood's fluff analysis, I've always suspected Qruze's Cthonian status was a mistake; Abnett implies he's Terran with the Unification warrior stuff, then Counter (IIRC) made him Cthonian.
> I think it's just lucky we can handwave it by using the reference to Cthonia being within reach for non-warpships, as Emperor-era Terrans scooting off to other planets and back before the Great Crusade hasn't really be established at all.


Uh, reading False Gods as we speak (By McNeill) and he is Cthonian.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Index Astartes article always supported the idea of Cthonians being on Terra pre-Crusade.

Rogal Dorn's dismissal of Qruze as a relic implies the latter arrived at Terra prior to the Primarch experiment and thus is not a "true" Astartes.

His experience would have seen him gain rank, but only to a point. As true Astartes would have been stronger, faster, and - most importantly - tied to the Primarch by blood, his progression could have gone no further.

Granted, him being Cthonian is not the smoothest background for the character... and I'm not convinced that the authors were talking to each other (or thinking about the IA's backstory) when his final origin was determined... but it's not a plot-hole necessarily.

Cheers,
P.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Uh, reading False Gods as we speak (By McNeill) and he is Cthonian.


OK, swap 'Counter IIRC' out for 'McNeill'. 
Point was that, yes he is Cthonian by any analysis of the texts, although his original appearance and the general impression of the fluff implies otherwise. Hence the questions "Is Qruze Cthonian?" or "How can Qruze be Cthonian?" being asked by people every so often. My suggestion was that - considering that fluff errors/inconsistencies are not exactly new to us - it was a case of one author mistaking the original intent of another, evolving a character to a place he wasn't originially intended to go. As the poster above says, it's not a plot hole, it's just something that's a bit awkward when it had no reason to be.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The Index Astartes article always supported the idea of Cthonians being on Terra pre-Crusade.
> 
> Rogal Dorn's dismissal of Qruze as a relic implies the latter arrived at Terra prior to the Primarch experiment and thus is not a "true" Astartes.
> 
> His experience would have seen him gain rank, but only to a point. As true Astartes would have been stronger, faster, and - most importantly - tied to the Primarch by blood, his progression could have gone no further.


Qruze was a full Astartes in my mind. Maybe one of the first. He is not smaller or slower then the other Luna Wolves, only older. Qruze is not a "True Son" of Horus like Abaddon or Aximond. He is like Loken but /way/ older. He was even considered for elevation to the Mornvaul. 

I agree he was some how born on Cthonia and apart of the unification wars on Terra... Pre Horus. How this all plays out i am not sure.


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## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

Just to clarify, the Primarchs were all created before the Space Marines. The Space Marines were a result of the Primarch project, created using their genetics to create the gene-seed allowing the transformation to Astartes.

Wether or not Qruze was taken from Terra or Cthonia, he was a part of the legion before it was reuinited with Horus. Like Garro was Terran born before the Dusk Raiders united with Mortarion and became the Death Guard. A full Space Marine, just older by far and having served the Emperor a good deal before serving Horus.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*Lord Lorne Walkier, Warsmith40,*

I have to disagree.

Qruze is the only Astartes, even including Astartes who have been fighting the whole Great Crusade (like himself) who is described as being so old. He is also the only one who is described as being physically deficient - see his duel against the augmented human Maggard in "Galaxy in Flames".

"Visions of Heresy" describes the process by which the Legiones Astartes were created. They maintain the transition from regiments of hundreds of augmented humans to the actual Legions we know and love. Very little detail is given, which fits in well with theme of all this knowledge being lost:



> (pg 12) From the outset the Emperor employed the genetically modified warriors who were to become the Space Marines. These superhuman troops dominated the War of Unification, easily defeating all their Terran opponents and forcing the tech-priests of Mars to sue for peace."





> pg (17) Research and development leading to the creation of the Space Marines began during the Age of Strife... The Emperor ... constructed a secret genetic laboratory...
> 
> Within these dark vaults the first super-warriors were created. The Emperor hand-picked men from his personal bodyguard and then subjected them to surgical and psychological modification. ... they became an unstoppable force whose loyalty to the Emperor was unflinching.
> 
> The early Space Marines were organized into regiments, each compromising of no more than a few hundred warriors. The Emperor named each one of the twenty regiments. ... These super-warriors comprised the Emperor's army and with it he conquered the Earth and subjugated the myriad warring factions to his will. ... By the time Earth was totally under the Emperor's control each of the legions could muster several thousand warriors.





> (pg 143) During the Age of Strife, the Emperor came to dominate the Earth. At the forefront of his armies of conquest were the Space Marines. At some point, the Emperor conceived of and created the Primarchs.


Dorn's usage of the word "relic" cannot be dismissed. What other reason would he have to call Qruze that, or to even call for his retirement _"centuries ago"?_ "Centuries ago" is when the Crusade was starting. Why should he have been done away with then, when that was the time Astartes were just starting their war?

*Mob,*

Graham McNeill may very well have accidentally made Qruze a Cthonian, unaware of Abnett's own description (or perhaps he just forgot it, or perhaps he knew about it and remembered the supporting evidence from the IA article). At the end of the day, though, even if it was a mistake I think it's clear that James Swallow sought to close the gap through "Flight of the Eisenstein".

Cheers,
P.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warsmith40 said:


> Wether or not Qruze was taken from Terra or Cthonia, he was a part of the legion before it was reuinited with Horus. Like Garro was Terran born before the Dusk Raiders united with Mortarion and became the Death Guard. A full Space Marine, just older by far and having served the Emperor a good deal before serving Horus.


This would make Garro and Qruze roughly the same age, yet Garro is never described as old or deficient nor is he dismissed by Dorn as a relic. It seems clear to me that Garro and Qruze could not be products of the same procedure.


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