# a unique situation i think...



## catalyst (Feb 10, 2009)

So i'm running a Necron list of hammer and anvil, but my friend has a much more unique nids list, which uses 36" blast templates, and while we haven't actually played out a game as we can't until spring break I'm trying to plan ahead for this list. So this seems to be an issue, my destroyers can't get in range to shoot as the equal shoot ranges means they can template them right back, which means the end of my destroyers, i could port my immortals in range, but i imagine they'll get torn up pretty quickly, and can only do so much damage a turn. Finally my warriors and lith will take quite some time to get in range, during which time they can be shot time and time again. When they finally do he has some rather powerful CC units in his fex's and tyrants, which are fairly similar to nidzilla ones.

So does anyone have any ideas on what to do in this situation, i can't really think of anything in the necron codex to deal with multiple 36" blast templates, seeing as to how it would tear up scarabs i tried to get close.

And if this is in the wrong place I apologize.


----------



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

just march forward and run, relying on res. orb and WBB rolls to keep you alive. Once close, your rapid fire weapons will decimate (thanks to the gauss rule). If you get into CC (and don't get sweeping advanced) just port out of combat and rapid fire. Use your destroyers to nuke his range, remember that his blast plates can scatter and you have a 3+ armour save followed by a WBB roll. Don't worry, you should be fine.


----------



## Ferik (Nov 5, 2008)

You can also spread your troops out within their 2" coherency and this will also help to minimize the damage recieved by the templates.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

lmao, if all you have to do this whole time is waltz down the center i'm going to be disapointed... we had thought up way cooler tacticas.

on the templates: I'll be trying to pin you down with them, which, if successful, means your army isnt running at me or shooting me down


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Here are my tips:

1. don't use hammer and anvil unless you know you are playing vs an idiot who has never played 40k 5th ed. before

2. I don't know how many points you are playing but you should take as many Monoliths as you can. I suggest 1 in 1,500pts - 2 in 1,750pts - 3 in 2,000pts
This will let you control LoS and prevent the templates hitting anything other than Monoliths. Nidz also lack an effective counter to Monoliths. Keep everything behind the Monoliths and move them steadily towards the enemy, and then P-Whip the Nidz to death. 3 Monoliths should be able to destroy most of a Nid army in 3 turns

3. Deceiver. He will really give you the edge vs Nidz. There is plenty of info on this guy in the Necron Tactica I think, so I won't repeat it here. Very useful vs MCs

4. use Destroyers on your flanks to target the stealers if there are any, and use their high mobility to find good firing solutions

5. depending on deployment, keep a few units of Warriors in reserve and bring them on from the table edge. This will keep your PO safe for a few turns and you can portal the Troops into place as required with your Monoliths

In general; try to keep your whole army as mobile as possible to react to Nid tactics as they appear, remembering to keep similar units as close to each other as possible - i.e. within the 6" requirement.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

> 5. depending on deployment, keep a few units of Warriors in reserve and bring them on from the table edge. This will keep your PO safe for a few turns and you can portal the Troops into place as required with your Monoliths


I haven't looked at the Cron codex in ages but i seem to remember something about them having to come out of the Monolith if they come out of reserves, could be completely wrong though


----------



## NecronCowboy (Jan 8, 2009)

If you turbo boost the scarabs they will get a 2+ cover save from ranged weapons.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

with all this talk making this sound so simple I'm starting to wonder if maybe i need to go and make myself a niche anti-necron list instead of using my all-comers list =/ Any suggestions? (I'm the one catalyst will be facing off against incase someone hadn't caught on yet)


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Barbed Strangler is a S8 (at max) large blast, pinning weapon; all of which you know of course, but it helps to lay it out there to start. This means that it wounds on 2 against both Warriors and Destroyers, and is an Instant Death Weapon for Warriors. Both of these are bad, but it does have a high AP so you are going to get your saves using anything except scarabs. And while it is a bad weapon, I think you are overestimating how bad it is going to be for you, so lets take a quick look at it. Please keep in mind here that the numbers that I am using are all averages based on statistical analysis and so only really apply when dealing with large numbers. Don’t expect these numbers to hold in an actual game situation because they probably won’t. But it does give use a place to start looking at how to deal with the Nid threat.

Barbed Strangler vs. Warriors: 
*If* you clump your warriors, he could hit a full 20 man squad (like after a VOD), which would be about the most he could possibly manage. In this case he is going to wound 17 and you are going to save 10 giving you a massive loss. But since we are in 5th Edition and only use 10 man Warrior Squads now, if you use a diagonal stagger keeping each Warrior 2” apart then he will hit 5 max. (which is still half a 10 man squad, but not all of it). He wounds on 2 and you save on 3 which means that on average you will lose 2 of the 5 Warriors. Not a horrible loss. 

That gives 12 Warrior kills per Barbed Strangler over a 6 turn game, assuming the conditions listed above. If you find that loss is too much then you can further reduce this to 6 kills through the use of a Lord with a Res Orb. Finally you can reduce even that loss to 3 kills if you include a Monolith and utilize the Portal to redo their WBB. 

Barbed Strangler vs. Destroyers:
Slightly different situation here leaves you completely different results. The Strangler is only going to get 2 bases (max; unless you forget your stagger – you didn’t did you?). Again, wound on 2 gives you both wounded and save on 3 with a 4+ WBB means that you probably save both. (Averages are 1.667 wounds, 1.111 saves, 0.5555 WBB; add save and WBB to get wounds).

Keep in mind that you ARE going to take losses when a Barbed Strangler shoots at Destroyers, but you probably won’t take many. The more he fires at them though, the more you WILL lose.

The pinning aspect of the Strangler is pretty much a loss against Necrons. At leadership 10 you are very resilient to them, and you probably won't fail a pinning test in an average game. Realize that it could happen, then ignore it.

As to how to wound him back, Destroyers are a great way. Just keep in mind that CC is *NOT* your friend. You should be much more concerned with staying out of CC than what kind of shooting he has, since that is the much bigger threat.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

can a pinned unit still go through the monolith / make WBB rolls?


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It can certainly make wbb rolls. Not sure about the monolith but I think it can. In theory it's the monolith doing stuff, not the warriors, as I understand it.

As a nid player, bring enough shooting to kill the destroyers, ignore the monoliths as they do nothing to your MCs, and crunch up the necron warriors when you feel like it.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Wounded said:


> I haven't looked at the Cron codex in ages but i seem to remember something about them having to come out of the Monolith if they come out of reserves, could be completely wrong though


You are correct, it does say that in the Codex. BUT, the 5th ed. FAQ says to ignore this and gives new rules for it.

Models can now either choose to come through the Monolith or walk on from the table edge, but this choice must be declared at deployment.

It is also not possible to prevent Necrons from using the portal by blocking it because of the new 5th ed rules.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Someguy said:


> It can certainly make wbb rolls. Not sure about the monolith but I think it can. In theory it's the monolith doing stuff, not the warriors, as I understand it.


It actually counts as disembarking from a vehicle, which is counted as moving. Pinned and Falling Back units do not have free movement and so can't use the Portal. I think there is info in the FAQ about this as well.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

isnt the FAQ somewhere on this site?
yeah i was figuring that i'd probably gun down his destroyers early on, they can't reach me unless i can reach them back so that's nice.
statline looks kinda like the deciever could open a fex like a tin can in CC though, that's annoying.


----------



## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

Wounded said:


> isnt the FAQ somewhere on this site?
> yeah i was figuring that i'd probably gun down his destroyers early on, they can't reach me unless i can reach them back so that's nice.
> statline looks kinda like the deciever could open a fex like a tin can in CC though, that's annoying.


When facing Necrons its always a good idea to ignore Lith and any C'Tan they might have, if he is running a C'tan just get your self some Rippers and tie him up. Then make the warriors cry.

If you really have to take out a lith don't waist your time hitting it with anything below S10, you get no exra rolls or dice and at AV14 it is a pain in the arse to crack open.

And yes I know Deviever can run away form Combat like a Tau girl, but every shot he takes at rippers is only less shot he takes at anything important.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

JokerGod said:


> When facing Necrons its always a good idea to ignore Lith and any C'Tan they might have, if he is running a C'tan just get your self some Rippers and tie him up. Then make the warriors cry.
> 
> If you really have to take out a lith don't waist your time hitting it with anything below S10, you get no exra rolls or dice and at AV14 it is a pain in the arse to crack open.
> 
> And yes I know Deviever can run away form Combat like a Tau girl, but every shot he takes at rippers is only less shot he takes at anything important.


The Deceiver won't take any shots at the Rippers, if you charge the Deceiver it will just move 2D6" towards the thing it really wants to kill. So by charging it with Rippers you are helping it move up to 12" closer to its target.


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Wounded said:


> can a pinned unit still go through the monolith / make WBB rolls?





darklove said:


> It actually counts as disembarking from a vehicle, which is counted as moving. Pinned and Falling Back units do not have free movement and so can't use the Portal. I think there is info in the FAQ about this as well.


This one is a good question but I think you are probably right darklove. Being pinned is now “Going to ground as a result of a failed Pinning Test” and units that have gone to ground can’t do anything. The thing that makes me wonder is that it is the Monolith that is doing the moving, and units that have gone to ground *can* have things done to them (like they can be forced to fall back).

And I looked in the Codex, the BRB and both FAQs and couldn’t find anything that addresses this one. If anyone does know where this is dealt with, please post it.



JokerGod said:


> When facing Necrons its always a good idea to ignore Lith and any C'Tan they might have, if he is running a C'tan just get your self some Rippers and tie him up. Then make the warriors cry.
> 
> And yes I know Deviever can run away form Combat like a Tau girl, but every shot he takes at rippers is only less shot he takes at anything important.


This can be a disastrous strategy if the Necron player has any idea about how to play his army. As darklove has already said, the Deceiver would just run towards your MC. What he didn’t say is that the Monoliths are running blocker for the rest of the army, restricting your LOS. And, if he places the Monoliths correctly (up to 2.9” away from each other) you can’t even move between them, you gotta go around. While you are going around, he is pounding you with repeated gauss flux arc shots, or particle whip shots (in addition to whatever else he has to shoot at you with)

At the same time, if he makes a mistake he has so many points wrapped up in Monoliths and C'Tan, he will phase out much easier.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm not worried about that arc shot much, it's got a 12" range, which means the turn after it hits me that i charge it with a Fex, S10 +2D6 is going to open up that tin can pyramid.

*GUYS THIS THREAD IS FOR THE NECRON PLAYER!* we should get back to helping him:biggrin:


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

@Catalyst: if you run your Liths as LOS blockers then you can't shoot either, and on my next turn i might be able to move into LOS and shoot you ( you only need to be able to see 1 model of a unit to hit the whole unit, granted you get a 4+ cover save )


----------



## Ztrain (Oct 26, 2008)

Wounded said:


> I'm not worried about that arc shot much, it's got a 12" range, which means the turn after it hits me that i charge it with a Fex, S10 +2D6 is going to open up that tin can pyramid.
> 
> *GUYS THIS THREAD IS FOR THE NECRON PLAYER!* we should get back to helping him:biggrin:


No actually you won't Monoliths are using living metal. Most you can get I believe is S10+1D6

Z


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Monoliths can only recieve a maximum Penetration Rolls fo 16, thanks to the Living Metal - you only ever roll 1 dice.

Carnifexes are the only things that Nids have as an anti-armour weapon. 

Personally, I wouldn't give a Carnifex a S10 in an all comers list - hence a S7 Barbed Strangler. If you really are focused on spending so much on a shooty Fex, then by all means, but I wouldn't expect it to be effective in an all comers list.

Try the Catalyst Tyrant with some Screamer Killer (2x Sycthing Talons) Fexes to take down the Deceiver - try and bait him with a Shooty Fex,with two nearby Screamer Killers - the shooty fexes provide the damage dealing to the Warriors, which prove nasty to all Nids. If the Deciever goes for them, then charge the Fexes in. If it breaks off Combat, then you've done the job of giving you another turn of shooting with the Fex.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Monoliths can only recieve a maximum Penetration Rolls fo 16, thanks to the Living Metal - you only ever roll 1 dice.
> 
> Carnifexes are the only things that Nids have as an anti-armour weapon.
> 
> ...


S8 BS... Fexes base 9S and -1S on the BS
and i actually dont have a fex with 10S, was @ work when posting that, must have been distracted
but get this topic back on the topic of helping out Catalyst with necrons


----------



## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, I play nids and my bro plays crons, so I guess I can provide my 2c.

-Using the Monolith to block LOS:
This one is kind of a grey area, since the lith is a skimmer and if you use the skimmer base it shouldn't block LOS. OTOH, if it blocks LOS it will do so in both directions so it's almost a moot point. The advantage is that it will be the necron player who will decides when the LOS is stablished, so he will probably rapid-fire to death the nids forward line.

-Bring destroyers, lots of regular destroyers!
Yeah, both destroyers and Barbed Stranglers/Venom Cannons have the same range, but the destroyers have a muuuch greater movement range. So, with some movement (or even turbo-boost from one side of the table to the other if needed! it's worth it!) you can focus ALL of your destroyers on the target you want to blow up. If you kill all the creatures that can fight back, then the other's won't be able to template you to death, and the gauss rule should ensure you some wounds.

Also, since destroyers are T5, Barbed Stranglers won't deny them WBB. And if Wounded brings any warrior or genestealer or mantifex... those die in droves to heavy gauss.

-Monoliths are simply too hard to crack!
Nids dont' have anything that can deal with liths effectively (moreso in 5th). Bring at least 1 per 750 points and they won't fail you. The ability to pull a unit from melee and put them in rapid-fire range is invaluable.

And there's the ever-interesting tactic of the bugzapper! I don't think it will work vs popular nid armies right now (most have too many MCs), but it still amuses me to recall charging a lord+squad of scarabs with genestealers and have all them die to the static field upgrade (gaunts would have died too).

Hope that helped a bit!


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

elkhantar said:


> Well, I play nids and my bro plays crons, so I guess I can provide my 2c.
> 
> -Using the Monolith to block LOS:
> This one is kind of a grey area, since the lith is a skimmer and if you use the skimmer base it shouldn't block LOS. OTOH, if it blocks LOS it will do so in both directions so it's almost a moot point. The advantage is that it will be the necron player who will decides when the LOS is stablished, so he will probably rapid-fire to death the nids forward line.


Since we are all using 5th ed. rules now, the Monolith blocks LoS for everyone because we now use True Line of Sight. Being a skimmer has nothing to do with this anymore other than some skimmers fly a little higher than others by using floating bases. The rule is that you use the base that comes with the model - Monoliths don't have a base so they sit on the ground. This is also why they move so much more slowly than other skimmers.

Monoliths can usually do enough damage that it is worth having them at the front so that they a) are more likely to be in range; b) get nearer the objectives to help portal Troops into place; and c) hide the rest of the army from enemy shooting.



elkhantar said:


> -Bring destroyers, lots of regular destroyers!
> Yeah, both destroyers and Barbed Stranglers/Venom Cannons have the same range, but the destroyers have a muuuch greater movement range. So, with some movement (or even turbo-boost from one side of the table to the other if needed! it's worth it!) you can focus ALL of your destroyers on the target you want to blow up. If you kill all the creatures that can fight back, then the other's won't be able to template you to death, and the gauss rule should ensure you some wounds.
> 
> Also, since destroyers are T5, Barbed Stranglers won't deny them WBB. And if Wounded brings any warrior or genestealer or mantifex... those die in droves to heavy gauss.


I agree that Destroyers are very effective vs Nidz, but HDs are not really needed. Nidz are all organic, so a 6 from any Necron gun will wound any toughness. Nid saves are quite low generally, so AP2 isn't really needed. Nidz are immune to Instant Death when in synaps range, so S9 won't instant kill their leaders.
S6 AP4 is usually more than enough, and the extra shots and lower price are more useful.



elkhantar said:


> -Monoliths are simply too hard to crack!
> Nids dont' have anything that can deal with liths effectively (moreso in 5th). Bring at least 1 per 750 points and they won't fail you. The ability to pull a unit from melee and put them in rapid-fire range is invaluable.


The mobility that Monoliths provide is an absolute must vs Nidz. With Monoliths you can move Warrior units up to 30" 1 turn (18" portal, 6" move, 6" run) or Destroyer and Wraith units up to 42" (18" portal, 24" Turbo Boost). This can catch out a lot of players, but especially Nidz because they need to be close to you to hurt you.


----------



## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

I would argue that a monolith can port units that have gone to ground, since lash of submission can.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

> The mobility that Monoliths provide is an absolute must vs Nidz. With Monoliths you can move Warrior units up to 30" 1 turn (18" portal, 6" move, 6" run) or Destroyer and Wraith units up to 42" (18" portal, 24" Turbo Boost). This can catch out a lot of players, but especially Nidz because they need to be close to you to hurt you.


That is amazing mobility! that would definately get you in range to rapid fire some nids turn 1 i bet



> Also, since destroyers are T5, Barbed Stranglers won't deny them WBB. And if Wounded brings any warrior or genestealer or mantifex... those die in droves to heavy gauss.


That is very true but they still die to the S10 Vennom cannon that follows it, so don't get all cocky with them. Not sure what a mantifex is or why he/she dies to gauss in droves.

someone correct me if i'm missing something about this gauss stuff but it seems like it does nothing to nids... 6's are going to wound with or without it and gauss's rules say that gauss allows saves as normal


----------



## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> I would argue that a monolith can port units that have gone to ground, since lash of submission can.


I thought of that too, but would counter that the Lash is used by an opponent forcing a movement on you. The Monolith is used by you "as" movement.

At this point though, I don't feel confident either way :grin:



Wounded said:


> someone correct me if i'm missing something about this gauss stuff but it seems like it does nothing to nids... 6's are going to wound with or without it and gauss's rules say that gauss allows saves as normal


What was being references is that most MCs have high T values. In other armies that necessitates using high S weapons, but with gauss weapons you are actually better off statistically using more low power shots. For instance if you take a wound on 2 weapon and compare it to a wound on 6 weapon, if you have 4 of the wound on 6 for each wound on 2 you are statistically more likely to kill what you shoot at. And point for point with Warriors vs. Heavy Destroyers you have more like 10 (or 20 rapid fire) low S shots for 3 high S shots. The warriors will just wound more often.


----------



## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

I never said anything about heavy destroyers, darklove, only regular destroyers, and I meant it! After seeing them in action a few times, both my bro and I realized HDs weren't really worth it vs tyranids.

Also, about the Monolith... You're right! Since it is a skimmer, in 4e it didn't block LOS and I saw many many people who fitted with a flying base. I stand corrected however, since in 5e it should always block LOS.

Wounded, don't get too cocky  with the venom cannons either... you can only field three of those (two shots apiece) that can deny WBB to heavy destroyers. You can have five shooting weapons with S10 in the army max. (3 thropes with warp blast and two Carnifex VCs) but that would only net you 1 more shot and at a much closer range.

And my apologies, a mantifex is simply a ravener in the spanish codex. The translators do some strange decisions... genestealers may or may not be translated to "robagenes" depending on how "cool" they decide that the english name sounds that day, raveners were changed to mantifex whereas a lictor looks much more like a mantis, etc.

But who uses raveners in 5th, anyway?


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

> Wounded, don't get too cocky with the venom cannons either... you can only field three of those (two shots apiece) that can deny WBB to heavy destroyers. You can have five shooting weapons with S10 in the army max. (3 thropes with warp blast and two Carnifex VCs) but that would only net you 1 more shot and at a much closer range.


lol yeah wasnt trying to sound cocky, especially not with a Fexs less then stellar Bskill, was warning him that they are there and that if i hit him with a BS that i will be following it up with a VC (unless i can target 2 units with one MC somehow that i've never heard of?)
Just trying to provide him with the most information possible, the harder this fight is the more fun it'll be.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

For Necrons, games against Nidz will be hard, but in the end you should always win. 
With the number of shots and the power available you should be in control of the battle field from the start.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

It'll definately be differant for me, from the sounds of things it's almost as if i'll have to go on the defensive and make sure I'm either > 12" or in CC with his forces.The defensive bit is something I've rarely done in any sort of game since tower defense in the days of starcraft... We might need to play best out of 3, and will definately have to post our battle report on here somewhere(w/e section it goes in)


----------



## catalyst (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm thinking i'll be running a list with deciever 3 squads of warriors 2 partial squads of destroyers and a half squad of scarabs i think, though I'm not really sure what they are going to do. I might just boost them into his army and tie up fexes.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

catalyst said:


> I'm thinking i'll be running a list with deciever 3 squads of warriors 2 partial squads of destroyers and a half squad of scarabs i think, though I'm not really sure what they are going to do. I might just boost them into his army and tie up fexes.


consider making the destroyers 1 squad at ful strengh if you can without losing model count, that way they dont offer 2 easy KP.

Make sure you have enough scarabs to hit my fex, they should by nigh immune to gun fire though if you turbo them.

I dont see an Orb lord or any Liths, you use that your natural WBB is going to hold you till you can rapid me? Cause i could sit back and enjoy my 36" range on you while you trudge forwards 6-12" a turn, would also give me more time to focus on your destroyers since at that point they'd be the only threat.


----------



## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

Well Catalyst mentioned he might throw his list up here at some point but has since been heavily intoxicated for enlonged periods of time.


----------

