# Units you love and wish could be good



## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

Their models may be nice, their special rules may be unique, they may even have some great background, but they're just no good. They cost too much, their weapon options are too limited, and they're useless in all but a few specialized circumstances. If only they were better, more playable! If only!

We've all got units like this. What's yours?

I really wish Chaos Raptors were better. Demonic, winged marines, swooping about like birds of prey, shattering the enemy's morale, cutting chunks out of their battle lines, how cool is that? Unfortunately, they're little more than overpriced, dumbed-down assault marines. What little use they do have can be summed up by having them deep strike, hopefully pop a tank, and die. I remember last edition, they could cause -2 Ld to the enemy in assault, and could even Hit and Run, but those days are past. Maybe in the future, they'll be the elite drop troops they were destined to be, but not in this edition, it looks like.


----------



## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Flayed ones.

Awesome fluff awesome look (except the new ones) and they just scream insanity.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Swooping hawks and Vypers. Eldar are supposed to have good fast attack so give us some good fast attack!


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Ethereals - I just wish he wouldn't insta-kill my entire army if I were to field him.
Any Tau special Character- All neat, but all worthless.
XV-25 Stealth Suit- It just needs a better weapon. I have no idea why these wouldn't have rail rifles. Oh yeah, cause then they'd be awesome.


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Chaos Lords. Seriously, there was a time when such a thing invoked fear, delivered rape by the tanker-load and took it upon himself to be the King Badass of an army of Badassery. These days it's "lol buy a DP". At the least they should confer Fearless to the Unit they Join.

Raptors should be Assault-marines; but on suped-up Cocaine powered Steroids made out of Murder. I'd like to see 2 Attacks base with Power-weapons on a per-model basis and Fearless. Goddam I'll just say I want the whole Chaos dex to be Fearless. I mean, they work with the creatures of nightmares, worshipping beings who live to Terrorize and make and are formed out of an army of guys who are meant to fear nothing as they are fear incarnate - but no, Terminators and Marines are afraid of things if they have such association.

Otherwise I'd like to see Ogryns and rattlings seeing more play and the good old Carnifex as an example of "Don't mess with this dude", but I can't think of what to wish for.


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

im just gonna fast forward this to "everything that sucks in each codex currently." 

but i really just want Chaos dreads, possessed, and noise marines to be priced right/non-shitty rules.


----------



## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Shadow Spectres. Dear god they are gorgeous and their fluff is sexy but bloody hell their rules are so sub par. I don't care personally. I still want to roll with them.


----------



## VK-Duelist (Oct 4, 2010)

Hive Tyrants need to lower their cost.

Hive Guards need to be Heavy instead of Elite.

Pyrovores need to straighten out their shit and need to be Heavy.

Lictors need to synergize with the army and be more like Deathleaper.

Mawlocs need better WS.

Stealth Suits need to be cheaper. Like a cheaper Crisis Suit that can only fill Anti Hoarde but cheaper but for extra points, provide Markerlights.

Sniper Drones need to have some sort of long range weapon at a cheaper price.

Legion of the Damned need better stats.

Chaos Daemons should be put into the Chaos Sphess Marine codex.

New Necrons (If the rumors are true) need their We'll be Back instead of Feel No Pain.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Actually Sniper Drone squads would be fine if they were a bit cheaper and purchased as a support unit for the FW. That and it'd give a reason to field more FW.


----------



## VK-Duelist (Oct 4, 2010)

That would be interesting....

But of course...

What would be more better was having Vespids more cheaper and less fragile.

That and make them plastic.


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> Chaos Daemons should be put into the Chaos Sphess Marine codex.


And 



> but i really just want Chaos dreads, possessed, and noise marines to be priced right/non-shitty rules.


Sorry for raving but having seen the Land Raider Proteus getting a Chaos version of Machine Spirit i'm pretty much bouncing off the walls in anticipation at seeing the first tid-bits of a new dex on the horizon.


----------



## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

Chaos Lords, Chaos Dreadnoughts and Possessed. They're also so awesome but they're all pretty rubbish.


----------



## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

loota Deff guns -1 AP : C'mon, one unit that can give Marines a headache at range wouldn't be too much to ask for.

Looted wagons: Field em in squadrons and suddenly they look like a viable option over a battle wagon. 

Maybe modify leadership for deathkoptas, stormboys and bikers. Currently they're expensive to take in large numbers and a single whirlwind hit tends to blow them off of the board.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Stealth suits need rail rifles or a rework on stealth. They currently have to negate their advantage to attack. 

Love firewarriors. Needs to be able to take a heavy weapon drone that could be outfitted with battlesuit weapon systems.


----------



## *Chaos_Ate_My_Fingers* (Sep 11, 2009)

Be nice if the Necron Troops had a fewmore wargear options.

Chaos Daemons need reworking


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Possessed, raptors, bikers (Really more then twice the cost of a marine for faster movement, a slightly better gun, and T5).


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Wait a minute... Chaos... Tau... Necrons... 
View attachment 959931275


View attachment 959931276


View attachment 959931277


I think I see a pattern here.


----------



## VK-Duelist (Oct 4, 2010)

Elaborate please.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

This is science, man! It can not be rushed!

View attachment 959931281


View attachment 959931282


View attachment 959931283


View attachment 959931284


The results are in! :victory:

The answer is... 42? :shok: OF ALL THE CLICHE [email protected]# :angry:
:ireful2:
I give up!


----------



## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I think the answer is that all of them, by sheer coincidence no doubt, have outdated codices


----------



## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

I want conscripts to be evern cheaper? and allow a commissar unit upgrade?


----------



## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Meganobz. Hell, why else would I field an all-Meganob army if I didn't love them?


----------



## UselesswizarD (Oct 26, 2009)

Chaos Possessed. Hands down. The models are some of the best in the entire range and yet they are so hard to justify their total crap-y-ness.


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Blood Angels: 
Captains (they need optional artificier armor, relic blades, and an army wide affect that would make them a viable HQ) 
Death Company with jump packs (used to be such a cool unit, now way way overpriced)
Standard land raiders (they should be cheaper than crusaders or redeemers).


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

SavageConvoy said:


> View attachment 959931277
> 
> 
> I think I see a pattern here.


Science babes are so hot.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I also want to vote Stealth Suits. They are such a cool concept and have lovely models but their weapons are too short ranged to accomplish anything.


----------



## VK-Duelist (Oct 4, 2010)

Create a specialized sniper weapon for them then?


----------



## r9a9g9e (Aug 31, 2008)

BT Sword brethren. Marines that cost a lot, and die just as ez.


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I would like to vote again and say the entire Tau codex. I love the Tau models and fluff, but just can't get into playing them. I wish Fire Warriors, in particular, were better. Give them a good heavy weapon choice and a power weapon for squad leaders.


----------



## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

#1 would be Mandrakes from DE. They are such a beautiful model, but the rules are so bad I can't ever see myself fielding them.

There is also a lot from CSM, but I'll wait til they get their new dex.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Stealth Suits, they're about 10 points too expensive at their current ability, but they should get buffed defensively as well. Stealth Field Generator is worth like 1 point, GW charges 8 points. Load of crock.

And I don't play Eldar anymore, but Warp Spiders ability has never matched their epic looks and fluff.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Vanguard and Devastators are overpriced. Devastator Weapon options should be a lot cheaper (10pts for Missiles, 15 for Plasma Cannon, 20 for Lascannon, perhaps). Equally Vanguard should be a lot cheaper.

Chaplains are just too bad. I suggest +1 Attack, +1 Strength from the Crozius and some more options. Hell, they'd be ok if they gave the squad Stubborn/LD re-rolls instead of Fearless.

Honour Guard need Invulnerables and the ability to take an Apothecary, Chapter Masters need some kind of stat bonuses (+1 WS/BS/I) over Captains. 

Thunderfire Cannons are bad because of the Artillery rules rather than anything in their entry.

Techmarines need a points decrease, or two wounds and an Invulnerable. As they are, they try to be CC dudes but one Space Marine with 2+ armour isn't really hard to kill. Legion of the Damned need a major points decrease. 

The Land Speeder Storm needs BS 4, and the Jamming Beacon should be 12" rather than six. Also, it should be a Dedicated Transport not a Fast Attack. Scouts themselves want BS/WS 4, or at least an Elites version of them with buffed stats, 2 CCWs, defensive grenades and Meltabombs, to represent the more experienced of the Scouts - more commando-like.

Drop Pods should have no guns on them but not give away kill points.

Midnight


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

another vote for swooping hawks, amazing looking models and my favorite eldar unit,unfortunately they go down like a 5 dollar hooker when her rents due


----------



## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

An Assault version of the Wind Serpent wouldn't go amiss. Seriously just give us a normal Wind Serpent with an Assault Ramp for Scorpions and Banshees?


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

While I've got a few ideas over the entire range of the Sisters of Battle codex, I'll go with Penitent Engines. AV11 open topped rage is hard to justify without fleet, smoke launchers or a decent save (6++ does not count as "decent").

Cutting their points down to about 60 would be a good start as wpuld giving them FnP (just to increase their odds of living since that' give them a 6++ with a 4+ back-up roll improving their odds of not explodrating every turn petty decently).

But I'm just shooting from the hip in trying to make the mini-dred work.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

A few factions worth:

-Chaos: The Dreads. The day GW makes them fun and good again is the day Forgeworld gets three orders for those amazing chaos dreads they sell.

-Dark Eldar: Mandrakes. Beautiful model and very cool concept, but...no power weapons+low # of attacks+losing Outflanking if you add an IC to boost them= a lackluster unit that will at best kill artillery like lootas, devastators and other CC lightweights. Also, they need to kill someone to start shooting, meaning unless you're lucky with your outflank, they won't get to do it. 

-Eldar: Swooping Hawks. I like the concept of shooty jump infantry for a change, but these guys don't deliver.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

noise marines


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm surprised noone has mentioned Flash Gitz yet. They are totally awesome, and the best of the best of Orky shooting. But they have BS 2 just like everything else in the dex. Whiskey....Tango....Foxtrot? And even if they were given their much needed BS 3, they would still be overpriced as heck, or their upgrades would. If they got the extra ammo for free, BS 3 and the other upgrades a little cheaper they would be, at least, playable.

Codex: CSM. We all know the criminally cool and worthless units that lurks within, but just to recap:

Raptors - Should actually be fear inspiring assault specialists instead of watered down assault marines.

Possessed - While I wouldn't mind them being random they really need some serious buffs and a better "random mutation" table. For Jervis Johnsons beard sake, they are daemon-infused chaos marines! Why the hell aren't they brutal and ravenous like Rosie o'Donnel in a bakery?

Chaos Dreadnoughts - Either get rid of rage or make it work, like it did in 3rd ed. Making them either cheaper and giving them more options would be fine. Giving them mark related wargear would be incredibly cool as well.

Chaos Bikers (These points go to all SM bikers really) - They cost too much and can't do anything Assault marines can't. Why bother?

Chaos Lords - Just give us an incentive to use them. Because right now, they can't do squat. If they actually were dangerous, could protect themselves or granted the army some nifty abillities, cool. But they don't. That is lame.

Chaos Sorcerors - Give us some good utillity spells (that princes won't have acces to) and they would be worth taking right there.

Thousand Sons - Yeah, they need to cost less, and have some more options. Or they need some badass rule that actually represent them being slow and unstoppable. They are basically robots (and no, FNP is precisely what they don't need).

Noise Marines - Need to cost less, have some better sonic weaponry, and they need to have them standard. Having noise marines running around with bolters makes no sense.

Spawn - I have no idea how these can be improved to even be called useless. But as they are now, they are just bad, random and stupid. And no, even if you love them they are also not fun to play with.

Daemons - Either C: CD needs to fuse back with their mortal brethen or summoned daemons needs to go (And the entire workings of the daemon codex needs a revamp, but thats another point).

Havocs - They have the same problems as MidnightSun pointed out for Devastators.

Chaos Land Raiders - Needs to be cheaper and have a PotMS equivilant.

Chaos Terminators - All they are good for is termicide, which makes no sense fluffwise. This needs to be changed.

Have I forgotten anything? Other than the need for the entire codex needs a decrease in points cost?
But i'm staying positive. Hopefully they new chaos dex will be made of win and good fluff.

Then theres also Eldar/DE:

Mandrakes - God they suck! And so lovely models they have. That is a disgrace.

Harlequins - Give me a reason to field these over Banshees/Scorpions/Incubi/whatever.

Court of the Archon - See Harlequins.

Warp Spiders - Needs some better guns. Period.

Guardians - Needs to not be crappe. Same really goes for Vypers, Dark Reapers, Platforms, Phoenix Lords, Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks and other stuff I've forgotten.

The Entire Sisters of Battle codex - Because a lame WD update isn't what they deserved. Here's to hoping that GW will make a proper one.


----------



## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

The Nightbringer. Not only is he is too easy to avoid he's also going extinct.


----------



## Krylo (Oct 23, 2011)

Harlequins with the Death Jester. I mean if you add a Death Jester you make the squad worthless as it has to sit with him, if you take him out and add a shadowseer why not just take mandrakes. They look cool when well painted and are just worthless on the battlefield.


----------



## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Pariahs. Why couldn't they get the Necron rule?


----------



## *Chaos_Ate_My_Fingers* (Sep 11, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Pariahs. Why couldn't they get the Necron rule?


If they made the points of a Pariah increase by 6pts or so I think they should have the WBB rule. :goodpost:


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I'm seeing a lot about the Legion here. Now, I'll be the first to say I'd like to see them improved, but that's cos I love them like a fat chick loves McDonalds. Still, I think perhaps you guys are underrating them a little. You seem to see them as Pseudo-Tactical Marines, while I see them as Micro-Terminators. 3++ like TH/SS terminators, only cheaper? Relentless with selection of heavy weapons? Again, Terminators will cost you more. Ok, so only the sergeant has access to power weapons/fists, but with his WS of 5, the unit wide basic 2 attacks, and Fearless, they can hold their own pretty well in combat. My only real gripe is Slow and Purposeful, which is less of a problem if you deep strike them well. 

I'm not a competitive player by the way, so obviously I don't know how effective they are in tournaments, this is just my opinion on the unit


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Stormboyz - Just seem so vunerable to getting wiped out before they get anywhere near combat. And even if they get to trade blows unless you take a hideously expenive unit of them they find it hard to do enough damage to make it worth while.
Maybe adjusting the points or giving them fleet would be a good option?

Tankbustas - I think the fact you have to go for the nearest vehicle is a hinderance people dont want in an army. They can be quite effective but I would like them to be have tank hunter to help them rule the table top better. At the moment lootas are a way better option and only loose out against armour 14 vehicles.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

jaysen said:


> Blood Angels:
> Death Company with jump packs (used to be such a cool unit, now way way overpriced)


Have you seen the damage those guys can put out? They're a darn pain to take down and any number of them reaching combat is a nightmare; you'd think 10 Khorne Beserkers on the charge could finish 5 Death Company with Lemartes. But no. It required the intervention of two Daemon Princes to finish them off. :headbutt:



*Chaos_Ate_My_Fingers* said:


> Be nice if the Necron Troops had a fewmore wargear options.


Soon... very soon...



aboytervigon said:


> Flayed ones.


See above comments.



Samules said:


> Swooping hawks and Vypers. Eldar are supposed to have good fast attack so give us some good fast attack!


Eldar are possibly one of the fastest armies I've played against. With the ability to take jetbike-riding TROOPS, jetbike-riding HQ, and a plethora of skimmer tanks and transports, they may not have epic "Fast Attack" but they are certainly darn good at attacking fast. :laugh:



MidnightSun said:


> Vanguard... are overpriced...Vanguard should be a lot cheaper.
> 
> *As a unit, they aren't really that expensive. Not much more costly than Assault Marines, if I remember correctly. When you start giving them all power weapons and jump packs, true, the cost increases; but they can ASSAULT when they arrive FROM DEEP STRIKE. That's just mad in anything outside Planetstrike!*
> 
> ...


Now that I've addressed those units, I'll add my own. :grin:

I feel that Space Marine Scouts in general are a tad too expensive. It seems we're paying 5pts per model for power armour between Scouts and Tacticals, which is a little mad. Power armour is definitely worth more, so decrease Scout cost accordingly!


----------



## LordKulvax (Oct 5, 2011)

Possessed Marines, they can be good but can also be a massive waste


----------



## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

im a massive tau player, and i highly dislike close combat, but when it comes to assaulting, the kroot just seem to drop like flies when being shot at. i reckon they should get at least some kind of armour save, but what would make them even deadlier... if they were assault troops, not rapid fire. otherwise you have to choose between shooting an army down, or assaulting, i mean, with that kind of power they have now, it is a better choice, in case of an assault trap, but i have not run into that kind of situation. ther kroot are very agile, and very strong, i dont see why they cant shot an enemy down, then assault the survivors. they would be much more effective, and also, the ethereals. they could be changed a bit so that my army isnt insta-killed when i decide to field them. maybe allow normal ethereals to have body guards like aunva, cus they just hammer if they get close enough.


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

40k too? Awesome. So,
Death Co with packs. Its just a waste. They are so easy to mess up its not even funny
Swooping Hawks. They arent good enough for how cool they are
Warp Spiders. See above
The entire Tau Army. They are awesome, but they are terrible in game
-Specifically Fire Warriors and Stealth Teams
Scouts. They should have higher bs/ws. They did in g3 and that was awesome

yeah... thats all i can think of now but will probably post later

*EDIT* Oh yeah... Kroot. Not very good, 3 scouts killed 12 out of 16 of them and the rest retreated. 2 scouts died.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

HUMYN HYBRID said:


> im a massive tau player, and i highly dislike close combat, but when it comes to assaulting, the kroot just seem to drop like flies when being shot at. i reckon they should get at least some kind of armour save, but what would make them even deadlier... if they were assault troops, not rapid fire. otherwise you have to choose between shooting an army down, or assaulting, i mean, with that kind of power they have now, it is a better choice, in case of an assault trap, but i have not run into that kind of situation. ther kroot are very agile, and very strong, i dont see why they cant shot an enemy down, then assault the survivors. they would be much more effective, and also, the ethereals. they could be changed a bit so that my army isnt insta-killed when i decide to field them. maybe allow normal ethereals to have body guards like aunva, cus they just hammer if they get close enough.


Kroot are only 7 pts a model.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

They may be cheap but with no armor, low I, and LD7 they fall apart like mad. They just can't dish out wounds and take too many in return. Assault weapons or even the old genetic buffs they used to get would be great. But right now they get put on the field for the sole purpose of getting killed.


----------



## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

SavageConvoy said:


> They may be cheap but with no armor, low I, and LD7 they fall apart like mad. They just can't dish out wounds and take too many in return. Assault weapons or even the old genetic buffs they used to get would be great. But right now they get put on the field for the sole purpose of getting killed.


But I think that's the point. Think of them like slightly tougher guardsmen with a bolter and two CC weapons, and you'll find their point-worth to be right on the mark. 

They are very good at what they do... now if you want them to be a dedicated, winning close combat unit, then they have a long way to go and would easily cost two, three times as much. 

So they are a good unit. When compared to other things that fill no role, or have another unit that does it so much better (stealthsuits, sniper drones, gun drone squadron, skyray), the kroot really do shine as a good investment that remains relevant to 5th, which is saying something for this codex.



Oh, and Ravenwing squadrons need a rework to not bleed kill-points, and deathwing need a cost reduction.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I never said that the kroot didn't find a place in the codex, or even that I didn't like them the way they are. Personally it would make me sad to see them as anything but a rapid-firing infiltration squad that dies when glanced at. It's how I like them. But I can see why people want them to be better.

They have a fairly decent fluff and had some great rulesets that made them shine on their own. They get a lot of credit in the books and I know in Rogue Trader it is my favorite class to play as. (Altough my GM refuses to let us run xenos characters often)

They could be a lot better if they were allowed decent upgrades. Keep the base cost the same but with a shaper, hopefully at a decent price, can give the unit upgrades to make them more than just a sacrificial lamb even with raising unit cost. 

But with most things wrong with the Tau codex, it's basically too little options at too high of a price.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Possessed and Raptors, although I've heard of success stories with both. I don't like the idea of Raptors being seen as second-rate tank poppers when there's an entire cult based on them. They deserve more dammit!

I also wish that the Chaos Bikers, Thousand Sons and Noise marines costed less points. I actually like Noise marines and the Thousand sons, but I simply think that the bikers cost too much. I don't actually like them that much.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Imperial Guard:

Eradicator and Punisher variants of the Leman Russ

I wish Commissars/Lord Commissars could be of any use in a mechanized army, but they're just great for blobs and that's it. I purchased a Lord Commissar model because I love him so much, but I have almost no intent on using him.

Rough Riders

Ogryns are overpriced for what they do, Ratlings are just... not worthwhile


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Squats!!!


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

This may sound odd compared to all the other mentioned units ....but.

I wish chosen could be better. The only reason I say this is the simple fact they are the linchpin of my army, but hardly come off as veterans and aspiring chaos lords that they are made out to be. Also a lot of the wargear options are restrictively high this late in the game. really 50pts for 2 static pf attacks? Also all the heavy weapons are just as over coasted as for devastators and havocks. Seriously, these days most armies feer auto cannons and bright lances more then a las cannon.

Mind you I would like if they at least had the option to come bare bones like they do with a veteran skill, as I like the role they offer as a mobile assault weapons platform, but they really should have had the option to chose/buy their veteran skill as all chosen getting infiltrate makes very little sense. Example: Are you saying my Khoranate chosen with giant ass bulky CC weapons are masters of stealth, and recon?

Also I am well aware that many other units of greater import are much more in need of revision, but I thought I would mention my woes over chosen do to the fact that I spent 40+ hours building/painting my 25+ strong urban commando style chosen. Who come complete with urban camo patches and gas masks, and a absurd amount of assault weapons.


----------

