# GK too strong against daemons?



## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

I've been reading some of the rules for the GKs and how they'll play against daemons etc. Does anyone think that GKs are _too _powerful against the daemons? I mean sure they can have a slight boost against them, but some of the stuff they got seems to just nerf the daemons and make it almost impossible for them to win against GK, just me? I don't play daemons but my friend was going to start them


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

How about we let them get their long awaited codex before we start complaining how over-powered against daemons/in general they are?


----------



## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Orochi said:


> How about we let them get their long awaited codex before we start complaining how over-powered against daemons/in general they are?


Because crying is fun.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Not really overpowered, just strong against daemons. If you were to add the bells and whisltes that make them powerful against daemons, you won't have many models on the table, and the daemond will be able to use numbers to win. 

What the new Gk codex means is that deathstars are going to be less useful. 

Everyone needs to calm down when new codices are announced/released, as none of the "40k is doomed" predictions have come true. It didn't happen when the SM codex came out, nor IG, SW, BA, DE, abd it won't hapen when the upcoming GK codex is released. None of them have been "too powerful for balance," and all have counters/weaknesses. We just do like before, adapt and overcome.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Besides, who even _plays_ daemons... 

I think it will be, as mentioned, the same as any codex release. For the first weeks/couple of months, people will lose to the GK as they are getting used to the style and capabilities of the new units, then they'll figure out a way to compensate either through list-creation or actual strategy.

Will it be stronger against, say, a daemon army as opposed to an IG army? Certainly, because killing daemons is the bread-and-butter of the Grey Knights, they're _supposed_ to be the best of the best at that specific task, so it would only make sense.

As far as rendering another codex _useless_... I doubt GW would go that far, as it would simply dip into their revenue stream if it completely turned daemon-only players off (if they even exist... but hey, hypotheticals!) As many others have stated in related threads recently, daemon players, it'll just take a little bit for them to get used to and to devise ways to counter.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Then watch as the first few days of the codex being out are marked by 50% of the 40k daemon players just out, and out leaving the hobby. 

ON a serious note it is hard to tell without the codex in hand, but it will either prove to be a insane oversight on GW's part, and will force daemon armies into fantasy for 3-4 years. Or it will just be OP against them, and the waves of idiot noobs that flock to the shinny new dex will get beat down by expert generals that some how make the most ass backwards army in 40k work (If your wondering the codex in question is the Daemon dex).

Personally I am looking forward to either option. 1) All daemon players fears are confirmed, and hatred of GK's escalates to levels threatening UM position of most hated (Maybe taking some heat of the good old smurfs). 2) Or the daemon codex becomes the ultimate test of skill with its randomness, and the GK OP crap galore pasted against it. Making any GK victory against a daemons player meaningless, but every victories of a daemons player against a GK gamer a true monument to their competence in 40k.

Or option 3) That somehow the codex is despite appearances not incredibly stacked against certain armies (Or more hilariously it does incredibly well against some armies, but can't even hope to face others) and we all learn to instantly accept the new GK's as just another random fringe army like it used to be.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm interested in how expensive their point costs will be. I think this will be essential in how this army works and how over powered they will be over other elite close combat units.


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

To be honest, GK's specialist roll in life if beating up deamons. They are the best at it in the 40k universe according to back gorund, so they should be able to handle a deamon army. That said, this will mean using a deamon army against them will need more thought than just taking fateweaver, 2 greater deamons and 2 deamon princes as a sort of kill all deathstar blob.

But has been said we dont know till the dex has been used for a few weeks or months.


----------



## The Antagonist (Mar 15, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Then watch as the first few days of the codex being out are marked by 50% of the 40k daemon players just out, and out leaving the hobby.
> 
> ON a serious note it is hard to tell without the codex in hand, but it will either prove to be a insane oversight on GW's part, and will force daemon armies into fantasy for 3-4 years. Or it will just be OP against them, and the waves of idiot noobs that flock to the shinny new dex will get beat down by expert generals that some how make the most ass backwards army in 40k work (If your wondering the codex in question is the Daemon dex).
> 
> ...


I've heard of and seen a few screens for the new Grey Knights 'dex.

My money is on option two. Though I've also heard IG, Eldar, and Ork players have little to fear. Apparently, GK are high-tier aganist most armies and god tier aganist daemons.

I, personally, look forward to the challenge.

The fluff that I've read though...it sickens me.

Then again, the 'dex is by Ward.


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Im not worried by GKs. At all.

Their model count is going to be hilariously low unless they run Inquisitorial Henchmen, but the ]I[ models are all T3, so no big deal either way.

The main weakness i've seen is that the actual Grey Knights have jack shit for Invul saves against ranged weapons. All their save-boosting gear only works in CC, so just shoot them to death with Anti-Tank/Anti-Armor weapons. 

Also, they will generally have a low number of attacks in CC, due to their per-model point cost being sky-high, so attacking them with massed Bloodletters/Daemonettes is a viable strategy for Daemons. The only lists GKs will be OP against are ones that use Deathstars. Otherwise, even other Marine codices will be able to drown them in bodies.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I feel in terms of game balance as a whole Grey Knights are too powerful against Daemons. Daemons get a pretty rough ride in general but the problem is not Grey Knights can be tailored to be powerful against Daemons it's that they are accidentally powerful against Daemons. You can choose a perfectly normal all comers Grey Knight army and you get a bunch of special rules thrown in with your guys, together with the fact that Daemons have no psychic defence as such makes it tough.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

What they should have done is make the Daemons a little OP and then counter their OPness with GK.  that way GK would have a reason to be a little OP against Daemons because daemons would be stomping the rest of the 40k armies. But thats just me try to rationalize a way for GK to be powerful while still retaining a sense of confidence in daemon players.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Well the old Codex gave Daemons a special rule to make up for it. I think that was a good idea to maintain balance between those two armies when they face each other without unbalancing them in different games.


----------



## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

from what ive heard from a friend who has the codex (from the black box) its actually quite balanced. yes all their stuff is insanely powerful, but you pay an arm and a leg for them. if you go for all the bells and whistles on a gk force you'll struggle to reach 20 models at 1000-1500 pts.

the reason all their stuff is so powerful is because the gk player will really feel each and every casulty since one failed armour save could be the end of a whole 20th of their army, now compare that to ig at 1000pts a 20th of my force would probably be 20 guardsmen, or even space marines where a 20th of the force could be 2 marines.

its definately following in the recent codex trend, where most units are fairly competitive (ba, de, and ig) but it is deffinately not another space wolves codex.


in summery, quit yo bitchin'!

also, deamons are not a pushover army like most people say, you just have to know what you are doing with them. a guy at my local club plays them and very rarely looses.


----------



## Mortigar (Oct 5, 2010)

I am quite looking forward to the challenge, 2 of the people i play against on a regular basis are starting them. Will probably have to spend more time creating an army list, but i do have models for every unit type except heralds on chariots which are being built soon


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The accidental ones are the annoying ones. Say someone takes a Dreadknight, they're pretty good, quite likely someone will take one. They get the power, which you cannot stop, which saws off all your Demonic Gifts. Your Bloodletters lose their Power Weapons, Your Daemonettes lose their Claws and Grenades, Your Plaugebearers are no longer poisonous, your Blood Crushers lose their Armour Save. Fantastically Blessing of the Blood God falls off so you get punched to death by Force Weapons. 

Now you don't pay for that, you just get it. All the Force weapons apart from being ridiculous against Nid Warriors etc make all your Daemons test or die if they take a wound. It's a small bonus, meaningless normally but when playing against Daemons it's just another random factor that makes it all the tougher.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Ive been playing daemons since the codex first came out. I love the army and sometimes feel odd when I dont play them. But then again Ive been a fan of the daemons back when they were still part of the CSM dex. Anyway, Im quite sure life isnt gonna be easy for daemon players but Im pretty sure it will be possible to beat them. aftreall its a table top game and we all know plenty of crazy $h!t happens that would never happen in the fluff. Ive already got 30 bucks aside as we speak to get the new GK dex and Im definately gonna spend time figuring out how to face them. I know most of the ends and outs to the daemon army from using much trial and error and have learned what works and what doesn't. I don't know everything now so don't take me as an arrogant vain @$$h0l3. 

When all is said and done the GK will just be another codex on the shelf and I will gladly face them.


----------



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> When all is said and done the GK will just be another codex on the shelf and I will gladly face them.


An admirable response. Complaining doesn't win games, out playing your opponent does.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

damn right. Its a game and its suppose to be fun not irritating


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I love all these interpretations such as the dreadknights power to remove gifts. It can only remove 1 gift from ONE nearby unit per turn. Same as force weapons. One model from the unit can make ONE force weapon attack per turn so no IK lots of nid warriors in one combat.

Its not as bad as has been suggested. After all unless players who use GK halberds then there are plenty of your units that will strike before them and in great numbers of attacks to which they will fall.


----------



## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

As has been pointed out they are expensive just use mass hordes and you'll win.


----------



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Against daemons, yes GK obviously will have an advantage, fluffwise they were MADE to kill them, so it's not surprising that they'll get rules against them. But the thing is, you either have to pay signficant points for this on wargear, or in their base rules, which increases the overall expensive cost of the army. So in this case at least the daemons have the advantage of at least outnumbering enough that it balances out the rules (to a certain extent).

Beyond daemons, it seems Grey Knights only seem effective against multi-wound deathstars like Nobz, or heavily armoured folk like SM players. Against horde armies like Guard, Nids (excluding Monstrous Creatures but it focuses more on gribbly hordes anyways) and Orks, all those PW and FW are worthless vs. a save of 5+ or less. The only thing we have to worry about are S5 Stormbolter spam and Purifiers, and even then our greater numbers, firepower or attacks will prevail.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Grimskul25 said:


> Against daemons, yes GK obviously will have an advantage, fluffwise they were MADE to kill them, so it's not surprising that they'll get rules against them. But the thing is, you either have to pay signficant points for this on wargear, or in their base rules, which increases the overall expensive cost of the army. So in this case at least the daemons have the advantage of at least outnumbering enough that it balances out the rules (to a certain extent).
> 
> Beyond daemons, it seems Grey Knights only seem effective against multi-wound deathstars like Nobz, or heavily armoured folk like SM players. Against horde armies like Guard, Nids (excluding Monstrous Creatures but it focuses more on gribbly hordes anyways) and Orks, all those PW and FW are worthless vs. a save of 5+ or less. The only thing we have to worry about are S5 Stormbolter spam and Purifiers, and even then our greater numbers, firepower or attacks will prevail.


Tis true I just don't think they are gonna be anywhere as bad as many have made them out to be. Last week I played a planetstrike mission with a group and one guy ran the GK under the new codex. he told me the psycannon no longer negated Inv. saves instead it just rends. If this is trully true then us daemon players don't have a lot to worry about. as for the dread knight hit is witha good enuff gun it will go boom like any other vehicle.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I love all these interpretations such as the dreadknights power to remove gifts. It can only remove 1 gift from ONE nearby unit per turn. Same as force weapons. One model from the unit can make ONE force weapon attack per turn so no IK lots of nid warriors in one combat.
> 
> Its not as bad as has been suggested. After all unless players who use GK halberds then there are plenty of your units that will strike before them and in great numbers of attacks to which they will fall.


Excuse me?



Dark Excommunication said:


> This power can be used during the assault phase (in either player's turn) after assault moves have been completed but before any blows are struck. If the Psychic test is passed, choose any enemy unit in base contact with the Grey Knight. Any Demonic Gifts possessed by models in that unit cease to work until the end of the phase





Force Weapons said:


> All Nemisis Weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of the force weapons (although Independent Characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemisis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. etc etc.



you were saying Stephen?


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

I guess them being overpowered against daemons is the whole point of it.


----------



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Can squads of Daemons have multiple gifts in the same squad? I was under the impression that all the models in a unit had the same gift.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

IntereoVivo said:


> Can squads of Daemons have multiple gifts in the same squad? I was under the impression that all the models in a unit had the same gift.


Yes, for example a Bloodletter unit can include one model with Fury, one with Instrument and one with Icon. Daemons don't have wargear or psychic powers, so every single upgrade or item they have will get shut down.

Midnight


----------



## WHEEMIKE (Jun 16, 2009)

What about the abilities under daemon section, like fearless and invuln saves?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Nope, just the actual Daemonic Gifts. I don't think that even a Grey Knight could make a Daemon run away. Well, maybe Draigo.

Midnight


----------



## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

I like the GKs immensely (their models are gorgeous) and i look foreword to the challenge they'll present, but i think their counters to daemons are too much. In the old codex, they got I think one little boost against daemons and that was it, now they can easily shut daemons down. I just feel bad for the daemon players


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

IntereoVivo said:


> Can squads of Daemons have multiple gifts in the same squad? I was under the impression that all the models in a unit had the same gift.


As midnight sun said pretty much everything Daemons can buy is a Daemonic Gift. Bloodletters, Blood Crushers and Daemonettes weapons are demonic gifts, Daemonettes Grenades are gifts. Fiends Hit and Run is a Gift. etc etc. 

Still curious as to why Stephen was so sure GK don't just take Nid Warriors and Nobz prison style though.


----------



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

That is pretty harsh. I hadn't realized they'd be getting nerfed so hard...Guess it'll be mass Plaguebearers for the win. They are the T5 invi save troupe, right?


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

To be honest the Gift removing is just one of those cheap digs that they get. No one is seriously going to buy Dark Excommunication in the list building phase, it's just that Dreadknights have it built in. That's an extreme example really. It's that everyone has preferred Enemy Daemons and all your Nemesis weapons might kill our multi wound guys outright. 

Plaugies would still be T5, FnP, 5++ but wouldn't get their FnP with everyone having Power Weapons


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> To be honest the Gift removing is just one of those cheap digs that they get. No one is seriously going to buy Dark Excommunication in the list building phase, it's just that Dreadknights have it built in. That's an extreme example really. It's that everyone has preferred Enemy Daemons and all your Nemesis weapons might kill our multi wound guys outright.
> 
> Plaugies would still be T5, FnP, 5++ but wouldn't get their FnP with everyone having Power Weapons


Sounds like to me our troops will be the strongest units to use aginst them. What use forcee weapons aginst single wounded creatures anyway. we still get our Inv. saves unlike there last codex which had several weapons that negated those things.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

You rang for my attention?

Firstly apologies on the force weapon fiasco. Since the Justicar is the focus of the squad I immeadiatly assumed that only wound could be activated in the force weapon way.

Secondly I just read the WD April battle report which surprisingly features deamons vs GK and at points it seemed that even the GK could be overwhelmed at points. Obviously the little shift in extreme luck and we all know what army won at the end of the game.


----------



## Kinglopey (Sep 10, 2008)

I wonder if the wording of Dark Excommunication will hurt the Eldar Avatar in anyway, not like all the other weapons in the GK army won't... LOL...

I don't like the anti-psy stuff, I thought that was more in the basket of the witchhunters/SOB... It makes since because the it's all from the Warp... I just don't like it...


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I curious why is all of the units from the sisters minus the sisters now part of the GK BTW. At least if you look at GW site under the armies section youll notice this


----------



## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

Oh, I don't know - I think Daemons vs GK should be interesting...
I fully intend to rebuild my daemon army, since one of my friends is taking GK, and am especially amused by the fact that the easiest way to kill a dreadknight..... is Skulltaker!
Since his "Skulls for the Skull throne!" is a special rule, NOT a damonic gift, it'll be interesting to see someones face when their big-ass robot, made for killling greater daemons, vanishes after failing one invunerable save against a rending wound (on a 4+, no less) done by a bloodletter with a superiority complex (assuming DKs dont have eternal warrior...)

Also, the psyk-out grenades (the ones that reduce damons/psykers to I1) only work when the GKs charge, not when they're charged, so charging daemons will still get to go at their own initiative, which is mostly higher than GKs (unless they have halberds, of course)

Third, dark excommunication is only available on very specific models, and would count against their power limit for the turn (I assume their librarians get to use 2 powers?)

Fourth, as I recall, GKs dont get to make Daemons lose eternal warrior, so FW dont do a great deal against them, and the daemonbane rule acts as a soul devourer, not a force weapon (i.e, the daemon has to FAIL a Ld test, rather than the GK passing a Ld test) - not nearly as scary.

Fifth - Squads of expensive power armoured models? Hellooooooo, Soulgrinder mawcannon phlegm upgrade...

Sure, there are some things in there that will screw with daemons, and some that'll absolutlely ruin their day - but at the same time, some of the stuff that other armies are wailing and gnashing their teeth about wont make a blind bit of difference to a daemon army, so, in those immortal words.....

_All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again_


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

:goodpost: 

This exactly. It makes sense that GK would have extra awesomes against daemons, but I doubt they`ll be too ott.


----------



## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Let's put it this way, aren't the GK's _suppose_ to be more powerful against daemons? I'm pretty sure that's their fluff and why they were made, to be the emperor's leading edge against daemons. So I would expect that a GK army has an edge when facing a daemons army. Likewise, I would expect them to fair pretty much like a normal SM army against any other army.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> Let's put it this way, aren't the GK's _suppose_ to be more powerful against daemons? I'm pretty sure that's their fluff and why they were made, to be the emperor's leading edge against daemons. So I would expect that a GK army has an edge when facing a daemons army. Likewise, I would expect them to fair pretty much like a normal SM army against any other army.


Fluff doesn't equal rules. Fluff wise Crimson Fists are are talented Ork fighters, but they don't have abilities that remove Ork abilities and special rules. Imagine how annoying it would be for an Ork player if he had to deal with an army that could force his units to break even if they were over 10 strong or could otherwise strip Orks of their special abilities.

It's fine that fluff-wise Grey Knights specialize in killing Daemons. What isn't fine is having to go up against an army that's basically purpose built to stomp yours. It might be fluffy, but it ain't fun.

Mind you, I haven't used my Daemons against Grey Knights yet so I don't know how it'll actually turn out in game, but so far I really dislike the idea. Time will tell.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I think it is a bit premature to say that the Grey knights are too powerful, the points costs are likely to be prohibitive enough to mean that, while they may slaughter daemons, it might not be enough to keep them around in a battle of attrition. 

If the points to do all the amazing things they are supposed to be able to do are balanced, that means that an average Grey Knights force will be tiny. I think that the Codex will mean a shift away from power builds towards more balanced builds.


----------



## Arias (Jan 8, 2011)

I do agree that the Grey Knights are going to have some great advantages against Daemons, the Servo-Skulls, Warp-quake, PEaemon, and weapons/grenades that affect them specifically but from what I have seen the dex looks like it won't be too overpowered, they will still outnumber us as Son mentioned.


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Well, if it were like this, Slaanesh Daemons and Slaanesh Marines should have special rules against Eldar, since the Eldar fear them. Imperial Guard squads should take Morale tests at -5LD when seeing a daemon, and Conscripts should auto-flee by seeing such horrors for the first time.

With this, I mean that fluffwise, a Marine may spit acid, have 3 lungs and 2 hearts, but his rules dont really summarize that. In the same sense, Grey Knights are ridiculously overpowered compared to Daemons. Giving them a "Preferred Enemy: Daemons" and the Nemesis goodies would be good enough.

Also, take in mind that Daemons have an already weak codex, which means that with the coming of GK, the few Daemon armies we see today running on tourneys will take a place on the shelf until a new codex comes.

I can make a truly enormous list of what things are dictated by fluff and not applied to rules for every codex. Being a mainly Chaos player (both Marines & Daemons), I can assure you that Chaos in particular has been stripped of fluffiness incorporated to the codex, because 4th ed. players found Iron Warriors overpowered (and the codex's main writer should better had stuck to writing WHFB army books instead of 40K codices).

For Chaos in particular:

-Daemon Princes: Hey, I ascended to Daemonhood, but I didn't wear Chaos Armour or Terminator Armour, so I stick with a crappy 3+ Save. (Chaos armour, being an older concept than Artificer Armour was taken away as well!). I also reach for my home when I cast a Psychic Power, and my home attacks my brain (Perils? A DAEMON? ffs!).
-Chaos Lords: Milennia-old warriors most, and yet they don't have Eternal Warrior, while some few-centuries-old SM characters have it (Lysander, Logan, Calgar, are all out-aged by most Chaos Lords). Even younger ones, being Renegade Captains, seem to have forgotten their Iron Halos at home (Huron should have it for sure).
-Chaos Sorcerers: Hi, I am a Sorcerer of Tzeentch, the god of Magic. Yet, I can do nothing to stop enemy psykers, for the Great Schemer has no sorts of magic defense (Chaos Sorcerers should have an ability increasing risk for Perils when psychic powers are used near them or something. They are bound to be more powerful than Librarians, but they aren't).
-All HQs: Our Marks used to do more than +1 on a stat. I am a Lord of Khorne, and I don't have Furious Charge. I am a Lord of Nurgle, and I don't have Feel No Pain, and my Toughness is in a bracket, so I can still be instant-killed by a stray S8 weapon. Some Space Wolves, however, riding big wolves, won't die if a missle explodes in their face.
-Chosen: Loyalist Veterans have 2 Attacks each, we don't. We are hard-nut veterans, and we possess nothing special, be it specialized gear or Veteran Skills.
-Raptors: We used to terrify our opponents on assaults with terrifying skreetches, and we would strike swiftly, disappear and attack again. On the last codex, we had the terrifying assault ability removed, but at least we kept Hit&Run. Now, we are simply overpriced Assault Squads without "They Shall Know No Fear".
-Land Raiders: Our AI (aka Machine Spirit/Infernal Device) stopped working in our last codex.
-Obliterators: We have white-hot plasma instead of blood, and yet our plasma weapons get hot. Moreover, we are a mix of man, daemon & machine, yet we die as easily as a simple Terminator by a stray S8 wound.




And the above are just for CSM, I don't want to start on Daemons 

What I mean with all that, is that since Chaos is not up to its fluff, why should the GK be? Are they better? Do they sell more? Pff....

I only hope our next codices will compensate our patience...


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

To be blunt, you lose any credibility when you say that a 3+ save is crappy and risk derailing the thread on a rant on how the chaos codex got boned by Mr. Cavatore's attempt at sabotage. the codex has not even been released beyond previews, in a few weeks, the same people whining about how overpowered it is will be whining about how underpowered it is, sameas with every codex that has been released since 4e.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, considering I have a copy...

Let's just take a look, from the start at Grey Knight Strengths vs Daemons - the ones specified for power against Daemons.

Preferred Enemy (Daemons)
Librarian/Dreadknight/Coteaz Psychic Power Dark Excommunication - Removes 1 enemy in base contact's Daemonic Gifts until the end of the phase
Kaldor Draigo's Force Sword - S10 versus units containing 1 or more Daemons/Psykers.
Kaldor Draigo's Psychic Power Sanctified Flame - S5 becomes 2+ to wound versus Daemons, Template AP-.
Banisher Henchmen's Aura of Faith - Units within 6" of a Banisher must reroll all successful invulnerable saves. 
Daemonbane - Daemons or Psyker models taking unsaved wounds from Nemesis Force Weapons (note - NOT DRAIGO) must pass a Ld Test or be removed from the battlefield.
Daemonic Fued Daemon Sword - rolling a 7 on a 2D6 (2 rolls to get it) for Daemonswords random power, Wounds Daemons on a 2+, successful Invulnerables must be rerolled.
Psilencer/Gatling Psilencer - Heavy 6/Heavy 12 S4 weapon AP-, wounds daemons on a 4+ unless normally easier.
Psyk Out Grenades - enemy psykers/daemons assaulted by units with these (Grey Knights and Inquisitors) are reduced to I1 for that phase.
Truesilver Armour - enemy psykers/daemons succeeding in attacking vehicles in CC with this upgrade suffer an automatic S6 hit after the damage is resolved.
Stern's Zone of Banishment - psychic test, all models friend or foe within D6" of him must pass S test or be removed, not including himself, Daemons must reroll successful test.

Now, what else is useful against Daemons - 
Brotherhood Champion's Psychic Power Heroic Sacrifice - If killed in an assault, make a Psychic Test, make a single attack against an enemy in base contact. If it hits, remove that target from the battle, as well as the Brotherhood Champion
Troop and FA PAGK Warp Quake - Psychic Test means all enemy Deep Striking scatter modifiers don't work within 24" bubble)
Aegis - Enemy psychic powers targetting Grey Knights suffers -1 Penalty to Ld for the Psychic Test
Reinforced Aegis - Dreadnoughts provide 12" Radius bubble, reducing Aegis Ld Penalty to -4. (It's written so that it doesn't stack, by the way).
Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You - Enemy units DSing within 12" and Line of Sight of Coteaz allows himself and his unit to make an all out shooting attack against it.
Valeria's Hyperstone Maze - enemy character (doesn't specific Independent though) or MC must roll equal to or under it's current wounds level or be removed.
Condemnor Boltgun - Combi-weapon, 1 shot, S5 AP-. Any Psyker hit suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any wounds it may suffer.
Mindstrike Missiles - Stormraven's missiles, One shot 72" Frag Missiles, Psykers under the template suffer Perils of the Warp in addition to working out any wounds.
Psyk Out Bomb - An upgrade for a Grand Master and Techmarine is the Orbital Relay, allowing once per turn orbital strike, including Psyk Out Bombs - S6 AP4 Large Blast, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp. (other options include S10 AP1 Lance Strike and D3 Standard S6 AP4 Large Blasts).
Psyocculum - Inquisitor's Option, allows shooting at units containing one or more Psykers to be resolved as if they were BS10. 

It seems like a lot, but most is purely situational options, and fairly expensive.

The ones which aren't, well, lets say you were going out specifically to destroy Daemons - you'd want an army consisting of the following;

Coteaz with a few units of Banisher's in Chimera's interspersed in the battleline, and one of 2x Monkey Smiths, 5 Psykers and 3x Warriors with Plasma in a Chimera, joined by Coteaz (puts out 3 Rapid Fire Plasma shots (with a good chance of rending against vehicles), 1 S8 AP1 Large Blast Template, and a Lascannon/Rending Heavy Flamer) all from the safety of an Armour 12 Wall). Make sure, however, that you keep them awy from any Warp Quake using Grey Knights. Take some mystics as well to ensure your Dreadknights drop on target.
Kaldor Draigo = 275

Techmarine, Orbital Relay
2x Venerable Dreadnought, Paired Autocannons, Psybolts, Truesilver Armour

Grey Knight Strike Squads with Psilencers (they're free for 1 in 5 per squad go figure), AssCan Psybolts plus Combat Squadded 2x Psilencers and Psybolts for the unit = 12 S4 (4+ versus Daemons) shots, 4 S7 Reroll to hit Rending shots, and 6 S5 AP5 Assault shots, and that's just half the unit.
Grey Knight Terminator Squad with 2x Halberd, Banner and a Hammer (1 goes in a Stormraven)

Stormraven

Multiple Dreadknights, Greatsword+Gatling Psilencer

Of course, that army is a bit disjointed, and has no real "all comers capability", and Daemons are weak enough, and the generic none Daemon specific buffs and rules of the Grey Knights (such as I6 Terminators) that there's no need to go all "DAEMONS DAEMONS DAEMONS MAX OUT DAEMONS KILLING).


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

i just have 2 questions. First, how is it that a God, namely Khorne, can give an ability to ignore all force weapons and psychic powers on a 2+, oh, except those grey knight ones, they're too powerful for me! And second, re: Skulltaker. He has the daemonic gift that gives rending. But in his Special Rules, that rending is on a 4+ rather than a 6, and causes instant death. So the question is, does he still lose rending as his daemonic gift, or is it protected by virtue of being both a special rule and daemonic gift?


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Son of mortarion said:


> To be blunt, you lose any credibility when you say that a 3+ save is crappy and risk derailing the thread on a rant on how the chaos codex got boned by Mr. Cavatore's attempt at sabotage. the codex has not even been released beyond previews, in a few weeks, the same people whining about how overpowered it is will be whining about how underpowered it is, sameas with every codex that has been released since 4e.


It is a codex designed to win over an old codex, then? Since that's the case, Daemons should have a new codex first, and then GK should come out.

As for 3+/5+ being a crappy save... For a T5 Monstrous Creature, yes it is, sir...


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Grokfog said:


> i just have 2 questions. First, how is it that a God, namely Khorne, can give an ability to ignore all force weapons and psychic powers on a 2+, oh, except those grey knight ones, they're too powerful for me! And second, re: Skulltaker. He has the daemonic gift that gives rending. But in his Special Rules, that rending is on a 4+ rather than a 6, and causes instant death. So the question is, does he still lose rending as his daemonic gift, or is it protected by virtue of being both a special rule and daemonic gift?


He loses the ability to Rend, so his special ability references nothing. It's lost.

As to the rules, why do Blood Angels have Assault Marines as troops and are very accurate at deep striking with Jump Troops, yet on the other hand it specifies that they have no more assault marines than other chapters?

Why do Long Fangs get 5 Heavy Weapons?

Why do Space Wolves get to ride Battle Tank sized Wolves? On the same train of thought, why don't Salamanders get to ride Super Heavy Tank sized Fire Breathing Lizards?

Why why why, whinge whinge. Daemonhunters are good at hunting Daemons, why why why whinge whine.

Next, we'll be hearing questions about why Space Wolves getWolf Tail Talismans.


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't mean that Daemonhunters should not have what they have. I mean that, since they decided to give them what they gave them, then everyone should have what they ought to have (Salamanders never had their own codex, but even then, with Vulkan you can have a quite fluffier Salamanders army over generic Space Marines. We're mainly talking about codices here, however, I suppose.). This means that, taking into account the "speed" with which GW produces codices, which is very slow, Chaos (as usual) will see new codices just before 6th ed. comes out (last place again), and even if they're gonna be "imba" codices, the edition will change soon enough, and most follow-up codices will be better once again. Other wargaming companies release books every few months, and their budget is much more limited than GW's, I don't get it. They should hire more developers, in my opinion. On the other hand, what they do right now is making bottom-sellers sell like crazy, and Chaos has a highly stable income revenue, and that's why it's not a priority at the moment, I guess (people keep buying Chaos because they love Chaos). This is relevant to the topic, as I personally think that GK are on the way to cheesiness for the sakes of making up for their low sales.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

WIll they now? With the changes to Glancing Tables, Orks, which was designed in 4th, and Space Marines which was designed n 4th (this is before the remake) were all competitive armies. With the advent of Phil Fuck Up Kelly, Crudass and Twat Ward (yes, I'm that childish) and their Vulkan MeltaSpam/LF Spam/Leafblower codices, suddenly, Orks are less viable, despite the reduction in AV13+ Reliance.


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

But still, Orks can make more competitive lists than Chaos (CSM git 1, Daemons got like 2, while Orks can make 3, that's something ). In my opinion, what makes codices overpowered compared to older ones is the slow circulation, and the lack of consistency between writers. All those people making good home made rules, start sending CVs to GW and apply for designer work posts


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> He loses the ability to Rend, so his special ability references nothing. It's lost.
> 
> As to the rules, why do Blood Angels have Assault Marines as troops and are very accurate at deep striking with Jump Troops, yet on the other hand it specifies that they have no more assault marines than other chapters?
> 
> ...


Firstly, it was a relatively reasonable question, and didn't deserve to be treated with the sort of contempt i expect to hear from a petulant teenager. I know damn well that Grey Knights are designed to be good at killing daemons, i don't dispute that in the slightest. I just object to the reduction in Characters abilities because of a basic lack of forward planning. Lets look at Skulltakers fluff. In the first war for Armageddon, he killed a quarter of the Grey Knights Brother-Captains in single combat. Obviously, as with all fluff, what we have on the board is watered down for reasons of balance. But now it appears that Skulltaker would struggle to take on even 1 Brother-Captain. 

All i'm asking for is a little bit of continuity. If Khorne can make his warriors practically immune to force weapons and psychic powers, why not keep it that way? Grey Knights still have the advantages of Preferred Enemy, better armour, heavier firepower, teleporting, power weapons on everybody, decent psychic defences on everything, and arcane wargear to help banish/shoot at/wound daemons, without needing the strip daemons strengths from them. 

Yes they're elite Daemonhunters, but i resent the fact that it seems to be EASY.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Fluff doesn't equal rules. Fluff wise Crimson Fists are are talented Ork fighters, but they don't have abilities that remove Ork abilities and special rules. Imagine how annoying it would be for an Ork player if he had to deal with an army that could force his units to break even if they were over 10 strong or could otherwise strip Orks of their special abilities.
> 
> It's fine that fluff-wise Grey Knights specialize in killing Daemons. What isn't fine is having to go up against an army that's basically purpose built to stomp yours. It might be fluffy, but it ain't fun.
> 
> Mind you, I haven't used my Daemons against Grey Knights yet so I don't know how it'll actually turn out in game, but so far I really dislike the idea. Time will tell.


This basically. 

Grey Knight are built to be reasonbly balanced against every other army, so they're competitive against Space Wolves and Blood Angels etc. But against daemons theys till have all that good stuff AND they have a bunch of extra rule which you get for free which just bone daemons. 

Like Nemisis DreadKnights have Dark Excommunication which removes all the gifts from a unit. So whilst before a Daemon Prince vs a DreadKnight would be a titanic fight instead becomes the Daemon getting beaten down, taking a Save-or-die LD test with every wound. 

On top of that they are all Psyhic Powers, Daemons have no defence against them really outside of Blessing of the Blood God, assuming you get to keep it.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> This basically.
> 
> Grey Knight are built to be reasonbly balanced against every other army, so they're competitive against Space Wolves and Blood Angels etc. But against daemons theys till have all that good stuff AND they have a bunch of extra rule which you get for free which just bone daemons.
> 
> ...


You probably won't keep it, as its a Daemonic gift and will more than likely get stripped by Dark Excommunication. Apparently the direct intervention of an ancient Chaos God isn't enough to protect against the focused willpower of a few superhuman mortals, go figure huh?


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Grokfog said:


> Firstly, it was a relatively reasonable question, and didn't deserve to be treated with the sort of contempt i expect to hear from a petulant teenager.


You're right not to deserve that, I wholeheartedly agree. I think you need to adjust the humour meter slightly though, as if that's contempt, me making light of an apparent gaffe on your point, well fuck me, I may as well not bother even trying to help.

I know damn well that Grey Knights are designed to be good at killing daemons, i don't dispute that in the slightest. I just object to the reduction in Characters abilities because of a basic lack of forward planning. Lets look at Skulltakers fluff. In the first war for Armageddon, he killed a quarter of the Grey Knights Brother-Captains in single combat. Obviously, as with all fluff, what we have on the board is watered down for reasons of balance. But now it appears that Skulltaker would struggle to take on even 1 Brother-Captain. [/quote]No it wouldn't. Only a Librarian, Dreadknight and Corteaz has those rules, and it's purely a single model in base contact with said model. Keep them out of B2B or even combat, and you're sorted. And if the Skulltaker WAS so good, just why is it he was killed by a squad of bolters targetting him? He's a Daemon, chosen of the Blood God, WHY WAS HE KILLED?????



> All i'm asking for is a little bit of continuity. If Khorne can make his warriors practically immune to force weapons and psychic powers, why not keep it that way? Grey Knights still have the advantages of Preferred Enemy, better armour, heavier firepower, teleporting, power weapons on everybody, decent psychic defences on everything, and arcane wargear to help banish/shoot at/wound daemons, without needing the strip daemons strengths from them.


They also have less numbers and get royally shanked even further with the numbers when they upgrade their equipment, in reality, the "remove model from table" affects only monstrous creatures - so adept to the meta like every other army will have to to stay competitive. 



> Yes they're elite Daemonhunters, but i resent the fact that it seems to be EASY.


Daemons are easy in any case. It's just easier with GK's.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You're right not to deserve that, I wholeheartedly agree. I think you need to adjust the humour meter slightly though, as if that's contempt, me making light of an apparent gaffe on your point, well fuck me, I may as well not bother even trying to help.
> 
> I know damn well that Grey Knights are designed to be good at killing daemons, i don't dispute that in the slightest. I just object to the reduction in Characters abilities because of a basic lack of forward planning. Lets look at Skulltakers fluff. In the first war for Armageddon, he killed a quarter of the Grey Knights Brother-Captains in single combat. Obviously, as with all fluff, what we have on the board is watered down for reasons of balance. But now it appears that Skulltaker would struggle to take on even 1 Brother-Captain.


No it wouldn't. Only a Librarian, Dreadknight and Corteaz has those rules, and it's purely a single model in base contact with said model. Keep them out of B2B or even combat, and you're sorted. And if the Skulltaker WAS so good, just why is it he was killed by a squad of bolters targetting him? He's a Daemon, chosen of the Blood God, WHY WAS HE KILLED?????


They also have less numbers and get royally shanked even further with the numbers when they upgrade their equipment, in reality, the "remove model from table" affects only monstrous creatures - so adept to the meta like every other army will have to to stay competitive. 


Daemons are easy in any case. It's just easier with GK's.[/QUOTE]

I do apologise, obviously i need to turn my hearing aid up to hear the sarcastic tone inherent in the text on my screen...

I agree though, i do need to get a sense of humour. Back to the topic, it seems that in order to adapt i'm gonna have to max out units, hope to not get shot, and just attempt to swamp things and hope. Which is a bit shit really.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> They also have less numbers and get royally shanked even further with the numbers when they upgrade their equipment, in reality, the "remove model from table" affects only monstrous creatures - so adept to the meta like every other army will have to to stay competitive.
> 
> 
> Daemons are easy in any case. It's just easier with GK's.



I doubt the average GK army will have that many less models than the average CSM army. And they get to spam 4-point vets in chimeras to add a bit of force to their roster. 

And the fact that an army is currently far from competitive is hardly an excuse to further stomp upon it.

"Why did you kick that fallen man in the privates?"

"Because he had just been run over by a milk truck, Your Honor!" :shok:


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

"Why did you kick that fallen man in the privates?"

"Because he had just been run over by a milk truck, Your Honor!" -Best comment on GK vs Daemons.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

AngelofHope said:


> It is a codex designed to win over an old codex, then? Since that's the case, Daemons should have a new codex first, and then GK should come out.
> 
> As for 3+/5+ being a crappy save... For a T5 Monstrous Creature, yes it is, sir...


because there are so many 1+ save running around


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

Actually, quite many 2+/3++ are running around at Toughness below 5, and many 2+ are running around at toughness above 5. At T6, where S4 weapons wound you at 6s, a good save is not that much needed (and yet, many T6+ Creatures have 3+ or better saves). At T5, well, the only Monstrous model I know has a worse save, is the Tyranid Harpy. But then, nobody really plays Harpies. So yes, compared to the Toughness/Save ratios of most other HQs, Daemon Princes have a crappy save.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

AngelofHope said:


> Actually, quite many 2+/3++ are running around at Toughness below 5, and many 2+ are running around at toughness above 5. At T6, where S4 weapons wound you at 6s, a good save is not that much needed (and yet, many T6+ Creatures have 3+ or better saves). At T5, well, the only Monstrous model I know has a worse save, is the Tyranid Harpy. But then, nobody really plays Harpies. So yes, compared to the Toughness/Save ratios of most other HQs, Daemon Princes have a crappy save.


So you want to have a rule where it ignores all wounds then? to say that it is crappy is beyond hyperbole.
There is only one save better, and I don't know of any monstrous creature that has a 2+ save. Then you have eternal warrior, which makes any save superflous, as no matter how high the strength, it will only result in a single wound. 
The models you refer to as having a 3++ are usually infantry, and how many monstrous creatures have an invulnerable save of any kind, let alone as good as 3++?


----------



## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

The lack of an Invulnerable save is backed by Toughness over 6, and usually, multiple wounds. A Carnifex for example is T6, and saves on 3+, with 4 Wounds. At T6, gunning it down with Bolters is quite unlikely, and Plasma wounds it on 3+ instead of 2+. A Trygon is the same, but with 6 Wounds. A Hive Tyrant is T6 and can have a 2+ Save, with Guards it avoids taking wounds whatsover. The Swarmlord has an Invulnerable Save. A Tyranofex is T6, with 6 Wounds and a 2+ Save. Dreadknights are T6, 2+/4++, and Wraithlords (and C'tan) are T8 (the latter also got a 4++, but Wounding them with small arms is unlikely to impossible in the first place). Greater Daemons are better balanced, but Iron Hide is going to be negated by GK. So, DPs from Codex: Daemons will only have a 5++ if not Tzeentchian. And thus, I covered most (if not all) MCs of the game. The only weaker MCs than DPs in terms of survivability are Harpies. Carnifexes are around the same level. Even so, neither Carnifexes nor Harpies have the role a Daemon Prince has, and at least, a Harpy can advance behind a screen of Shrikes and/or Gargoyles, hiding it from sight (or, providing it with a Cover save as a worst case scenario). From the MCs at the DP's role, the DP is the weakest.

As for infantry models with 2+/3++, that's actually what makes them broken to my eyes compared to DPs. A Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with Saga of the Bear, Runic Armour & Storm Shield is also an Eternal Warrior, and hurts a lot more (and equipped with a Power Fist, Wolf Tooth Necklace & Wolf Tail Talisman, his cost is 270pts, which is not much higher than a Tzeentch Prince's, nor too pricey to afford at a CSM army, I'd gladly trade an Obliterator for more power on my Daemon Prince), and moves faster (6" move, D6" Fleet, 12" Assault). Mephiston is beyond discussion, as his lack of an Invulnerable save is backed by his movement rate and small size which enables him to move from cover to cover (he is effectively an MC without the downsides of being an MC). MCs don't enjoy that priviledge.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, in a 1 v 1 scenario (gw store, flgs, etc.) where the GK army is tailoring its list, then GK might well be too powerful against Daemons. In a competative scenario (tournament, etc.) where GKs still need to be able to fight all comers, its unlikely that a player would put so many points into strictly anti-daemon upgrades.

However, I'm sure the potential of GKs to so powerfully outfit their army to nullify a Daemon army is still pretty galling for Daemon players.

As Katie said, we'll see how it actually plays out on the field.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

if you really feel that daemons have it rough, through them a line like 3/4 of the force arriving in term one as oppossed to 1/2, see how that swings the balance.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

If I may, having read this entire thread to this point, there seems to be a difference in the contention.
On the one hand is the argument that GKs are over powered against Daemons. On the other hand is the argument that GKs are balanced in general. You're both right.

Due to high points and low numbers, GKs are about as balanced as any army that has come out recently at least. There seems to be agreement on this.
Due to their special rules, they are better against Daemons than they are against any other force, even if they don't specialize. there seems to be agreement on this as well.

When we extrapolate this, the logical conclusion is that if they are a power level of X against every one else, and X is a balanced power level, they must be power level X + Y against Daemons, therefore against Daemons they are overpowered by Y. Simple logic.

The other issue that seems to be an argument is whether that is acceptable. Logic no longer applies because this is opinion, and my own opinion is that it is not acceptable to have an army that is more powerful against one specific enemy without having to sacrifice effectiveness against other enemies, unless it also grants a balancing bonus to that enemy. For example, if the GK codex gave bonuses to Daemon armies while they faced each other or Daemons had bonuses against GKs, then it could work a bit better, but as it stands, I don't like this situation.


----------



## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

Anarkitty said:


> When we extrapolate this, the logical conclusion is that if they are a power level of X against every one else, and X is a balanced power level, they must be power level X + Y against Daemons, therefore against Daemons they are overpowered by Y. Simple logic.


whoa....:shok:


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

I'm sorry but x and y has nothing to do with this. some one earlier said that you can accidently make a daemon murder list. this is the true point. my regular opponent has many MC s for tyranids, and so we must find effective ways to deal with this. for GK the dreadknight goes "yo. look at me. im not even 150 points but i deepstrike, have incredible strength and toughness, and can even save on a 2+" so you take it. 
hoards of un-upgraded gaunts are also common. for me noise marines cope admirably but GK have pscilencers (6 shots!) and can take 4 in a purgation squad (24 shots!).

so these units would put me in great stead to fight the nids and their powers make this even more so. now lets look at daemons. dreadknight can dispell gifts, so bloodletters loose power weapons, plagues loose poison weapons, and so it goes on. my 24 will also wound as much on a bloodthirster as they would a marine(or tyranid warrior). oops!


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

What whoa? haven't you ever taken a class in logic? Someone out their knows what I am talking about.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Caliban said:


> dreadknight can dispell gifts, so bloodletters loose power weapons, plagues loose poison weapons, and so it goes on.


I haven't read the rule in the main book yet, but the rules they printed in WD implied that the Dreadknight can nullify the gifts of *one* daemon in base contact with it. Which would mean you get all your spangley weapons in a squad, minus the gifts of (usually) the Herald or whatever character had charged in with them. Hardly a game-breaking power. Charge the thing with units rather than characters...


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

MY bad, but damn if that isn't a huge F you to daemon players, not really sure how the hell you are supposed to counter that with daemons. Three of those things could walk half a daemon army by themselves.

Oh well I guess no more thought on the topic is needed really. Daemon without bonuses means daemons lose 35%-50% of what makes them cost what they do. So yes taking into account the ability to take away a units D gifts daemons are out of the picture for me.


----------



## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

well hopefully they give Chaos Space Marines and Daemons the allies rule for traitor gaurd and eachother


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Why would they do that?


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

its actually one UNIT which does make it very effective. just looking at daemon troops:
Bloodletters loose hellblades. as such the DK uses the 2+ instead of the 5++
daemonettes loose claws. so no rending = same as above
plagues loose poisoned weapons so wound on6 instead of 4+

as you can see, powerful stuff

however think on this. blessing of the blood god. 2++ against pschic attacks and force weapons. now bloodthirsters as some the nastiest CC monsters in the game and for 5 points you can get this upgrade.now think all greyknights have force weapons of some kind.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LukeValantine said:


> Power weapons, posion ect arn't listed as gifts in the CD codex. Don't know what idiot started this rumor regarding gray knights, but it stops here.


Actually, look in the Daemonic Gifts section and I think you'll find the Hellblades, Plague swords and so on. So I'd apologize to that idiot.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Power weapons, posion ect arn't listed as gifts in the CD codex. Don't know what idiot started this rumor regarding gray knights, but it stops here.
> 
> Daemonic gifts are the entries you have to buy like wargear. Notice that bloodlettes hell blades can't be purchased as a daemonic gifts, and as such are not gifts. What it does stop is stuff like rage of khorne on a Harald ect.


 
actually mate, if you go to the army list you'll see that for each unit it states Daemonic gifts in exactly the same manner as it says wargear in most codex's or biomorphs in nids.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Power weapons, posion ect arn't listed as gifts in the CD codex. Don't know what idiot started this rumor regarding gray knights, but it stops here.
> 
> Daemonic gifts are the entries you have to buy like wargear. Notice that bloodlettes hell blades can't be purchased as a daemonic gifts, and as such are not gifts. What it does stop is stuff like rage of khorne on a Harald ect.


Um, actually if you read the battle report in aprils WD, you'll see the dreadknight use its dark excommunication on a whole bloodletter unit, removing their power weapons...


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

who won the battle report? surely it was a tie?


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Caliban said:


> who won the battle report? surely it was a tie?


Nope, GK won. Wiped out 60 daemons of various types, for only 23 losses. Considering the GK started with 46 models, the daemons got a fair pasting.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

People don't actually put stock in White Dwarf battle reports... right?


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

thats why i was asking. it seemed so obviouse that the gk would win by such a huge margin that theyd have to avoid a win so they dont look unrealistically strong. similarly to loose to daemons would make the codex crap so the draw looked most promising.

i always think back to spacemarine release. 3 reports. win, tie, loose. perfect!


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bloodletters of Khorne - Xpts
[Stat Block]
Unit Type - Infantry
Number/squad - 5-20
*Daemonic Gifts: Hellblade*
Special Rules: Daemon, Furious Charge
Options:
- blah *Fury of Khorne*
- blah *Chaos Icon*
- blah *Instrument of Chaos*

All are fairly explanatory as Daemonic Gifts.

On the bright side - a Deathknight cannot Hammerhand and Dark Excommunication at the same time.

Ways to beat Dark Excommunication - don't declare the combat involving the NDK first - if you or he rolls to hit, he forgoes Dark Excommunication. Kill it with shooting attacks.

Not that much else, I'm afraid.

For ease - the following gifts are negated by Excomm.

Boon of Mutation, Iron Hide (he's an MC/Libby has PW anyway), Unholy Might, Instrument of Chaos, Blessing of the Blood God (the NDK is fooked if he doesn't use it in this instance), Fury of Khorne, Hellblade, Soul Devourer (basically, aside from not being a Force Weapon, is the same rule as an NFW, except causes a test per wound), Aura of Acquiescence, Rending Claws, Soporific Musk, Transfixing Gaze, Aura of Decay (useless anyway), Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Plaguesword.

Also, strangely, Daemon Steeds are negated, as are Daemon Prince Marks of Chaos (mostly affecting Nurgle and Tzeentch - as a NDK won't need Hammerhand to wound on a 3 with a Greatsword, and Tzeentch now has a 4+ Save).

Cause 20 Kills with Nurgle models with Epidemius present, you'll get Power Weapons, Masque is a must take. Skarbrand has 6 attacks, and the NDK doesn't benefit from the Rage Embodied. He's got awesome stats - 7 S8 Power Weapon attacks and an armour ignoring 4+ to wound breath attack will definately help.

Furies have 2 attacks, Tongue Soul Grinders (provided they stay out of combat), Bloodcrusher T5 protects from ID, and 3 S5 attacks can put on the pain, even if the enemy has a 2+. Beasts of Nurgle are T5, and have a large number of poisoned attacks not effected by Excomm...

But yeah, that's really it... A shitty codex made worse by ExComm.

Best defence? Roll a to hit dice VERY quickly in the assault phase.


----------



## razcalking (Jul 14, 2008)

Well, if I was a Daemons player, I probably wouldn't bother. If someone at the gaming store wanted a game and they were Grey Knights, I'd politely decline. Why bother wasting my time with a match up that Games Workshop themselves has decided I should never win?

If it was a buddy, sure, I'd give it a go for kicks if he promised to buy the beers afterwards.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I apologize for my previous post, but I just couldn't imagine GW being stupid enough to allow fundamental strength of units to be stripped with a simple LD test. Silly me for thinking the Grey knights codex wasn't a retarded throw back to when daemons weren't their own army (I guess I bought to much into the whole give GK's a chance thing).

Now to rant.

Masque a must take? Its a T3 none IC infantry model with a 3+inv save. The Masque is never worth taking...ever.

Also shooting attacks? Daemon have about 2- 3 units that can put out anything that would scare a DK, and two of those units are expensive, and will vaporize by turn 2-3.

I know people are trying to look on the bright side, but realistically it looks like this.

Crappy gray knight player > good Daemons player.
One of the best daemon player > decent Gray knight player.

Also dark Excommunication is the equivalent ito a army having a pychic power that stripped a unit of marines of their armor save...no amount of shine will make that turd of a rule look unbroken.

Also vaz I know your trying to present a good spin on the whole daemons vs Grey knights, but really good old 300pt Skabrand? Against a army where almost any unit can one shot him on a lucky roll?

Seriously it breaks down like this.....you have to list tailor just to be able to hold your own against GK's, I don't even mean in the general take X amount of unit A-B, I mean literally have to know exactly what your opponent is taking, list tailoring, and that's just to be able to give a decent fight....Oh well my CSM's will still shit kick the wave of GK noobs that will flood my gaming scene soon. So that's something. (bitter you bet I am after wasting 250 dollars on daemon units, that money could have gone to my CSM's!)


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes, Masque, really. Redeploying units stops silliness like Purifiers combat squadding to allow 4 Psycannons to spill out 16 S7 Shots a turn - make them move, it becomes (only) 8.

I forgot she was non IC though.

Dark Excommunication; made out to be a big thing. Yes, yes, it strips an entire armies strengths, except - get this. It affects ONE SINGLE ENEMY IN BASE CONTACT. Fatecrusher, oh sure, one Bloodcrusher is reduced to no power weapon. What about the 4-5 guys also with 4 reroll to hit and wound S6 I5 (outspeeding the NDK) PW attacks each? It's only got a 5++ after that, and at T6 4W, will fall fairly sharpish.

NDK's are 130 basic - 135 gets you a psyfleman which is better in the long run in a tournament list, capable of putting out 4 TL'd S8 shots at 48" every turn, and is capable of being fixed by a Techmarine, yet the two (NDK and Dreadnought) are rival slots, as are Land Raider Crusaders, which is also much more useful for Terminators.

NDK's get more expensive when you choose to throw on a ranged weapon and Shunt (which is only once per game).


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Thank god, and here I thought it stripped the whole unit...mind you then why are peaple saying the WD battle report had them nutralising a unit of bloodletters hellblades (Instead of saying it neutralized one bloodletters blade?).


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

Has anybody looked at the daemon codex! Blessing of the blood god! bloodthirsters and princes may upgrade to this for 5 and 10 points respectively. also each can take wings meaning you can effectively counter dark excommunion. also this allows for 5 MC in 1000 points. 

now look at the hounds. unit of 20 plus karanak(?) gives you an elites choice. thats 6" move. run. 12" charge plus move through cover. s5. 

smaller units of 5 in fast attack also help to bog down the few GK on the board. 

bloodletters are the best troops. 16 points each is pretty cheap.
ws5 means you hit on 3+ against most things and thatthose nasty palladins hit on a 4+ not 3+. power weapons are obviously great. this easily beats daemonettes, fewer attacks but wounding on 3's and 4's with no saves easily beats wounding on a 5 with a save and a 6 without. 

as for durability the plagues loose fnp to force weapons and their poissoned weapons dont make a difference at s4 and the only t6 gk has dark excommunion.

grey knights would be pretty screwed but you've not got a pretty good army against any marine (so 3/4 of players) and a decent enough one against most others.


----------



## Chaos40kAD (Apr 25, 2009)

As I'm sure everybody else has stated.. repeatedly.. There will be a lot of noobs trying to pwn up on Daemons with this new codex, and sure it has some beefcake rules and abilities, but It's just like any other codex with big nasties that you don't want to tango with. I certainly wouldn't send in a MC on this daemonic gift negating unit, I'd choke him to death with cheap units while the rest of my army does what it does best. I'm kind of excited to see how many chumps think they can auto-win on Daemons and then get sent to school by a seasoned general. :victory:

-Brett


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

what does the helberd do?


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

@Vaz - Dark Ex is one enemy UNIT, not one model.

@Caliban - Blessing of the Blood God is a Gift, and can therefore be stripped by Dark Ex. Against anything other than units with dark ex, blessing is going to be your best friend. Against units with dark ex, i'd send in the Nurglings.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Yeah Excommunication strips the unit not the model from all powers. I would say it's not that a huge deal I mean it will fuck you up quite often because NDK are good, so people will take them. No one will ever buy the power though as it's mostly useless. 

Its exactly how I spelled it out before. If you consider Grey Knights to be generally good in the field, hold their own against the top tier, then they are considerably better against Daemons.


----------



## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Don't worry once grey knights are released there will be a new post saying "Grey Knights are Underpowered" No really! A bunch of IG shooting OR a mob or Ork Boyz and nobs will give them a hell of a bad day. Possibly even a Furioso running up and saying Om Nom nom blood talons?


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

So, while i think about this whole 'Army wide Force Weapons are going to pwn Daemons' argument, am i right in believing that Eternal Warrior stops that? Cos if so, no major problems for MC's or multi-wound characters, as every model in the Daemon codex has the Eternal Warrior rule


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Grokfog said:


> So, while i think about this whole 'Army wide Force Weapons are going to pwn Daemons' argument, am i right in believing that Eternal Warrior stops that? Cos if so, no major problems for MC's or multi-wound characters, as every model in the Daemon codex has the Eternal Warrior rule


True but you take a Leadership test or die is you take 1 or more wounds from a Nemesis Weapon. Unlikely to fail but possible. Hilariously you can use Psychotroke grenades and hope for the 'They're Horrible' result reducing them to Leadership 2 then the Daemonbane of Nemesis weapons will instantly kill them.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> True but you take a Leadership test or die is you take 1 or more wounds from a Nemesis Weapon. Unlikely to fail but possible. Hilariously you can use Psychotroke grenades and hope for the 'They're Horrible' result reducing them to Leadership 2 then the Daemonbane of Nemesis weapons will instantly kill them.


Damn, so even Eternal Warrior gets gimped by Grey Knights :/


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Not quite you don't just die outright, you have to fail a Leadership test, probably at 10. It's just another cheap dig that GK get in on Daemons when they're already down.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Aww fuck.Stupid posting at 6am.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

the csm prince isn't actually a daemon is it? rules wise?


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

@Caliban - Blessing of the Blood God is a Gift, and can therefore be stripped by Dark Ex. Against anything other than units with dark ex, blessing is going to be your best friend. Against units with dark ex, i'd send in the Nurglings.[/quote]


that was my earlier point. wings gives 12" movement. DK has 6" and terminator librarian (GK lib) has to roll for maximum 6" movement. you simply avoid them. and nurglings stand exactly the same chance against a dk as bloodletters, only bloodletters are more likely to wound.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You could pay 60pts for some Wings on your Daemon Prince, and that's handy assuming the NDK didn't buy a Personal Teleporter, which is will have. 

And yes CSM Daemon Princes aren't Daemons so they're good.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

As stated before CSM's are virtually unaffected by the majority of GK rules....weird. I still think the whole specific advantages against only one army is kinda a dated concept from last edd. Oh well I guess CD players will be all but extinct at ternaments (They where already rare). After all it was already a gamble using them in 40k competitively, and now having a almost guaranteed lose if X takes army Y is a scenario that no one wants to face half way into a major competition (and no its not comparable to someone taking a swarm army or heavy Mech, because a balanced list can still fight those if you use your head). 

PS:Saying that DK army is a mediocre one against other armies doesn't change the fact that some noob with a GK army can spank you, if you somehow managed to make it to the final round of a tournament with the already sub par CD codex.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You could pay 60pts for some Wings on your Daemon Prince, and that's handy assuming the NDK didn't buy a Personal Teleporter, which is will have.
> 
> .


personal teleporter allows for a 30" deepstrike move. you can't assault from deepstrike and as such can't get in base to base.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Caliban said:


> personal teleporter allows for a 30" deepstrike move. you can't assault from deepstrike and as such can't get in base to base.


And makes you Jump Infantry, like Wings, and lets you Shunt.


----------



## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> As stated before CSM's are virtually unaffected by the majority of GK rules....weird. I still think the whole specific advantages against only one army is kinda a dated concept from last edd. Oh well I guess CD players will be all but extinct at ternaments (They where already rare). After all it was already a gamble using them in 40k competitively, and now having a almost guaranteed lose if X takes army Y is a scenario that no one wants to face half way into a major competition (and no its not comparable to someone taking a swarm army or heavy Mech, because a balanced list can still fight those if you use your head).
> 
> PS:Saying that DK army is a mediocre one against other armies doesn't change the fact that some noob with a GK army can spank you, if you somehow managed to make it to the final round of a tournament with the already sub par CD codex.


i think most people agree with what you're saying in terms of gaining the upper hand from the start and that skillfill players should be able to tackle the new dex, but GK will be played by far fewer than say orks and nids who should have massive advantages over them


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

A Personal Teleporter can only be used to Shunt Once per game, and cannot be used to assault in the same turn.

Wing is quite a good defence, considering you can Lash it away, and Fly 12", or Fly+Run, combined charges of Fatecrusher is blatantly the best way to deal with it - then again that's in excess of 800pts to deal with one ~150-170pt model. Still, when it's that or lose your units bit by bit, it's worth it.

On the other hand - for the NDK shiggles - 

2 Communion Inquisitors, each with 3 Servo Skulls, 2 Chimera's, 2 Mystics, 2 Banishers, and 3 NDK's. The Inquisitor's Alpha Strike the NDK's with Communion, and the Mystics bring them on exactly where you want, or if you lose the Mystics, you still have the Servo Skulls to make it more accurate, while the Banishers are capable of forcing the enemy to reroll Inv Saves, as you crack on with your Monstrous Creature attacks removing their Iron Hide and Excomm reducing Tzeentch Princes Invulnerable to 5+, and Instagibbing if they suffer a wound and fail a Ld test.

Yeah, Let's just hope that Daemons have something that stops all Psychic Powers and Nemesis Force Weapons to make up for it.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Having been updated about Dark Excommunication, here's another simple solution to DreadKnights: Make sure to charge them simultaneously with two units that have the ability to take it out. It can only strip one unit. Simples :wink:

Oh, and Eternal Warrior doen't work against a number of things from other Codecii too - for example the Dark Eldar have a number of wargear items that don't inflict Instant Death, they just kill you outright. GK don't have the monopoly on that


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Wing is quite a good defence, considering you can Lash it away, and Fly 12", or Fly+Run, combined charges of Fatecrusher is blatantly the best way to deal with it - then again that's in excess of 800pts to deal with one ~150-170pt model. Still, when it's that or lose your units bit by bit, it's worth it.


Ah if only Pavane was as good as Lash. It only moves you D6" and you still need to roll to hit with it like a gun and it has an 18" range. So you Pavane them, they are Jump Infantry from the Personal Teleporters, so you got to hope you Pavane them a lot every turn or they will catch you.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

And a quick flick through has showed me that you cannot multi-pavane with the Masque/multiple Heralds, making them even more worthless than they currently are.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Caliban said:


> @Caliban - Blessing of the Blood God is a Gift, and can therefore be stripped by Dark Ex. Against anything other than units with dark ex, blessing is going to be your best friend. Against units with dark ex, i'd send in the Nurglings.


 
that was my earlier point. wings gives 12" movement. DK has 6" and terminator librarian (GK lib) has to roll for maximum 6" movement. you simply avoid them. and nurglings stand exactly the same chance against a dk as bloodletters, only bloodletters are more likely to wound.[/QUOTE]

Why bother trying to kill the blasted thing when for less than 130 points (the cost of the basic NDK) you could field a full unit of 9 bases of Nurglings? Thats 27 5++ eternal warrior wounds... Even the most determined transformer baby carrier is going to struggle to get through that and make any significant impact on the game.

So there we are, Thread over. I'll accept +Rep and applause, i thank you :biggrin:


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You've actually got to get them into combat with it though. On the bright side, it can only kill 2 bases a turn.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Vaz said:


> And a quick flick through has showed me that you cannot multi-pavane with the Masque/multiple Heralds, making them even more worthless than they currently are.


Indeed, that's why Pavane is pretty bad. The Masque is BS 4 at least, regular Heralds are only BS3. It always sounds like it's going to be pretty good, then crushes your hopes and dreams.


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You've actually got to get them into combat with it though. On the bright side, it can only kill 2 bases a turn.


True, but then the whole army has a bit of a struggle to get into combat with it. I guess good use of pavane could help. I don't have my codex to hand, do daemons get lash?


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Grokfog said:


> True, but then the whole army has a bit of a struggle to get into combat with it. I guess good use of pavane could help. I don't have my codex to hand, do daemons get lash?


Pavane IS Lash for Daemons, Except shorter range, you have to roll to hit, you can only be Pavaned once, it only moves you D6".


----------



## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Pavane IS Lash for Daemons, Except shorter range, you have to roll to hit, you can only be Pavaned once, it only moves you D6".


Damn, i was kinda hoping we got both. Well, i guess as with so much of the Daemon codex, it'll be down to luck...


----------

