# Slann and magic



## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

I watched a really interesting game last night where it was He vs lizardmen. The HE player had a lvl 4 wizard and the lizardmen player took a temple bunker Slann. He had two gifts of the old ones that allowed him to roll and extra die every cast and to take away any sixes rolled by the opposition. As a result he got most of his spells through and the HE player got none. How on earth do you combat this as a non dwarf player


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well you could just go with the standard HE answer of Teclis... bit boring though.

Whenever I've faced becalming whatever (steal 6s) I've not had too much issue getting my spells off... but it does change how I play. Instead of trying for 2-3 spells and rolling 2-4 dice at each I'll only try for 1-2 spells and roll lots more dice then I would normally 'need'.
I also think very hard about the order of spells: you are much more likely to lose concentration and need to lure out the lizrards' dispel dice if possible (I've seen someone roll 4 dice at a 7+ and lose concentration... 3 6s will wasn't well timed).


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

Becalming Cogitation is the discipline. Rumination grants the extra power die. Tim/Steve is correct. Another way to fight it is to stay out of it's range. The range is 24 inches. Stay just outside that range and it is useless. Another way would be to take multiple casters. Then, he has to select which one to use it on.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Taking multiple wizards is the best way to go for all us non-stunties.

With my VC's, this only makes my necros all the more valuable since they buy specific spells, I always have the important stuff.
Plus, being so cheap, (2 necros each w/2 spells costs the same as a thrall w/Lv2 upgrade!) I can single-dice spam away with my invos without any real worry, and just continue to chuck 2 dice at those vanhel's all day long... Eventually he'll run out of DD and one or two will get through.
And let's not forget the Good Book - single dice it and on a 3+ you can annoy the piss outa the slaan as he's got to waste a dice to dispel it!

As for dwarfs, multiple spellbreaking runes might be worthwhile, and obviously never leave the stronghold without the rune that let's you steal a PD and add it to your DD...
Perhaps taking the BSB with the anti-magic mega rune as well?

Also, (provided the FAQ hasn't changed it), the Focused Rumination power which adds a 'free' dice cannot be used if the pool starts at the 12 dice max... So 1 spell will have to be attempted before the lizzie player can start adding free dice.

Cheers!


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> Also, (provided the FAQ hasn't changed it), the Focused Rumination power which adds a 'free' dice cannot be used if the pool starts at the 12 dice max... So 1 spell will have to be attempted before the lizzie player can start adding free dice.
> 
> Cheers!


That's hardly much help, especially since I don't recall that being so, because of a FAQ, and at that many power dice, you're likely looking at irresistible Dwellers Below with the miscast transferred to you.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

The way you've described it, it almost sounds as if the HE was losing dispel dice of a six- The Becalming Cogitaion only works on enemy casting rolls, and is purely defensive.



Arli said:


> Becalming Cogitation is the discipline. Rumination grants the extra power die. Tim/Steve is correct. Another way to fight it is to stay out of it's range. The range is 24 inches. Stay just outside that range and it is useless. Another way would be to take multiple casters. Then, he has to select which one to use it on.


The range is only 24 inches, but most spells require a higher level to cast beyond 24 inches anyway, so if you stay out of range, then the Cogitation is working anyway... So for the large part the first point is a moot point.

However, the second point is 100% correct. You defeat the Becalming Cogitation (neglecting items such as Book of Hoeth) through forcing target priority. Using lore of Shadow as an example, take three shadow casters; try to make it so that one has Pit of Shades, one has Okkam's Mindrazor, and one has the debuff spells. All are high-priority spells for Lizardmen, and the more decisions you force, the more likely the Lizardmen player is to make a mistake.



experiment 626 said:


> Also, (provided the FAQ hasn't changed it), the Focused Rumination power which adds a 'free' dice cannot be used if the pool starts at the 12 dice max... So 1 spell will have to be attempted before the lizzie player can start adding free dice.


It doesn't need to be FAQed, because what you are saying is incorrect. The *power pool* can never exceed 12 dice (in regular warhammer, anyway). The Focussed Rumination does not add Power Dice to the pool, the dice is added directly to the casting attempt itself. Thus, even if the Lizardmen player gets a power pool of 12, he continues to add a free dice to every attempt, as the power pool never exceeds 12 dice. Thus, by casting every spell in the Slann's repertoire, the Lizardmen player can potentially access a massive 19 power dice, assuming there is only one Slann with Focussed Rumination, and that the Slann is a Loremaster, as he usually is.


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## ultor (Dec 6, 2010)

coke123 said:


> It doesn't need to be FAQed, because what you are saying is incorrect. The *power pool* can never exceed 12 dice (in regular warhammer, anyway). The Focussed Rumination does not add Power Dice to the pool, the dice is added directly to the casting attempt itself. Thus, even if the Lizardmen player gets a power pool of 12, he continues to add a free dice to every attempt, as the power pool never exceeds 12 dice. Thus, by casting every spell in the Slann's repertoire, the Lizardmen player can potentially access a massive 19 power dice, assuming there is only one Slann with Focussed Rumination, and that the Slann is a Loremaster, as he usually is.


Well it has been FAQed and all dice adding abilities (except night goblin mushrooms) counts as power dice so if LM player starts with 12 dice slann can't use The Focussed Rumination for the first spell till the pool gets lower than 12 dice.

For Becalming Cogitation a flying or fast moving caster can stay out of the front arc of slann with ease and avoid the problem.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

> Q. Does the ‘free’ power dice gained from Focused Rumination
> count against the power limit? (p43)
> A. Yes.


Its not a bad point to raise... and really shouldn't be shouted down so hard. It all depends on the wordings of the rule: powers that add extra dice tend not to work since they add to the dice pool before the spell is cast... but some such powers add dice after the spell's own dice have already been removed from the pool (such as DE's sacrificial dagger).

TBH I thought that Focussed Rumination was one that allowed the extra dice: either they're reversed the FAQ at some point or my brain is faulty (equally possible)... this is one of those areas that I trust the opponent to know their own rules for, but might check after the game (if I find someone was using their rules incorrectly then I just don't give them any trust in later games: I'll ask for dex support on any rule if I think it sounds remotely dodgy).


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

ultor said:


> Well it has been FAQed and all dice adding abilities (except night goblin mushrooms) counts as power dice so if LM player starts with 12 dice slann can't use The Focussed Rumination for the first spell till the pool gets lower than 12 dice.


Actually, now that I check the FAQ, it's a little more complicated than that. It does specifically say in the Lizardmen FAQ that the Focused Rumination counts against the power limit, however, that makes zero sense, as they are not added to the power pool.

Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen, page 43, 'The Focused Rumination'- When the Slann casts a spell, a 'free' dice is added to the attempt. This can cause irresistible force or a miscast as normal, and can cause the Mage-Priest to roll more dice than normally allowed.

So even though according to the Lizardmen FAQ, Focused Rumination does not add to the power pool, so even if the PD generated were to count against the power limit, the dice never enter the pool at all, and so the Power Pool does not go beyond twelve, even though the dice, should they magically be made to enter the pool, would count towards the power limit.



ultor said:


> For Becalming Cogitation a flying or fast moving caster can stay out of the front arc of slann with ease and avoid the problem.


Doesn't work, Becalming Cogitation does not require line of sight.


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

coke123 said:


> Doesn't work, Becalming Cogitation does not require line of sight.


He said front arc... does Becalming Cognitation require front arc or is it 360? I'm going to play against my first Lizardmen army since 5th or 6th edition soon, and this thread scares me!


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

If it doesn't require LOS, everyone has a different army book than I do.


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

Page 43 in the lizardmen rule book: Becalming Cogitation: At the begining of the enemy's magic phase, before any spells have been cast, nominate one enemy wizard within 24" of the mage-priest. Any power dice that roll 6 made by that wizard are discarded, and do not count toward irresistible force results.

Within 24" (not 24" within line of sight).

That is what my rule book says. Not sure what yours does. I even read the entry for the disciplines to make sure it was not mentioned there. This does not require line of sight.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Deathypoo said:


> He said front arc... does Becalming Cognitation require front arc or is it 360? I'm going to play against my first Lizardmen army since 5th or 6th edition soon, and this thread scares me!





Masked Jackal said:


> If it doesn't require LOS, everyone has a different army book than I do.


As Arli said, the ability only imposes a range, with no LoS restrictions. My book says the same as his. So ask yourself-

Is that enemy wizard within 24"? Yes? Then I can Becalm him.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Any army that relies on magic should have 2 decent casters in it... and becalming is just one of the many reasons for it.

If I played an army with good access to the BRB lores then I would normally take a Lv4 backed up by a Lv1. The lv4 can be relied on to do most of the work, but the lv1 gives you a scroll caddy (or another fun arcane item) but I would also give him lore of metal and always take the sig spell. That guarantees you a good back up mage which is capable of dealing with the sort of units you are likely to have trouble with: in this case the temple guard that the slaan is likely hiding in... which you'll be wounding on a 3+ with no armour or regen saves (eg Earth Blood) but you may well run into magic resistance.

Sure when I play my ogres I'll only ever have 1 caster in the list... but if I'm becalmed then my ~180 point butcher can still do some magic, is still pretty decent in combat, can still dispel and still carries all the wargear I gave him: he tends to be far more important for what he carries and his bonus to dispel then for his magical ability... I love using a hellheart on an expensive slaan: basically means that he'll rolll 1 spell, miscast, cupped hands it onto me (if its a 1 on my table I die, anything else is pretty ignorable if I can't get spells off anyway) then he'll stop casting... because the ogre miscast table is even nastier then the BRB's (although rolling a 6 and getting frenzy is awesome )


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Ah, it seems I had mistaken Becalming rules for Cupped Hands rules. Sorry. XD


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Hellheart? I assume it's an item to force miscasts on other casters? In which case you're completely neglecting Throne of Vines... but otherwise that's pretty badass.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks guys answered this one, run two casters or stay out of range and go and annoy something else. I've gotta say I absolutely hate playing against LM players. Usually because they know what they are doing and can be very powerful. Pimp magic, good monsters (when not against cannons), double hard infantry, always rolling LD on three dice, poison attack skirmishers. What's not to like?!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

coke123 said:


> Hellheart? I assume it's an item to force miscasts on other casters? In which case you're completely neglecting Throne of Vines... but otherwise that's pretty badass.


Not so much- throne of vines is fairly esy to stop if you know the opponent isn't going to be casting much if they fail to get it, plus if they roll 3-4 dice at it they'll likely miscast anyway meaning that if its dispelled (or scrolled in a larger/doubles game) they they're down to using cupped hands or sufferering pretty badly.

Funny thing is that the only 2 times I've used hellheart against lizards they're failed the 2+ to use cupped hands, unfortunately not on the nastiest end of my miscast table (a non-magical slaan would be hilarious).


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Well, then in all fairness, that's pretty shitty rolling on their part. It's still bloody hilarious to use on HE/Daemons/ any other magic-heavy army without miscast protection, as if you wouldn't take it...


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