# Mixing Grey Knights and Henchmen



## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

So I've seen it mentioned around the internet here and there that Corteaz Henchmen are good for pretty much anything that is missing in the main army, but has anyone actually mixed Henchmen in with PAGK or GKT in a list? I'm considering it but I'm not sold on it just yet and would like some feedback from anyone who has some experiance or tips on this one.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Justicar_Bob said:


> So I've seen it mentioned around the internet here and there that Corteaz Henchmen are good for pretty much anything that is missing in the main army, but has anyone actually mixed Henchmen in with PAGK or GKT in a list? I'm considering it but I'm not sold on it just yet and would like some feedback from anyone who has some experiance or tips on this one.


Coteaz+PAGK+Henchmen should pretty much be the core of any competitive Grey Knight list. In fact, they only lists that come to mind that don't really want Henchmen are the PAGK+Cronair allies or the mass PAGK lists, the former of which is really a Necron list, and the latter is not exactly top-tier in my eyes (although it is perfectly servicable).

Basically every other GK list should have some mix of GKSS and Henchmen, maybe unless you're bringing IG allies (which essentially do everything Henchmen do, except better).


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

coke123 said:


> Coteaz+PAGK+Henchmen should pretty much be the core of any competitive Grey Knight list. In fact, they only lists that come to mind that don't really want Henchmen are the PAGK+Cronair allies or the mass PAGK lists, the former of which is really a Necron list, and the latter is not exactly top-tier in my eyes (although it is perfectly servicable).
> 
> Basically every other GK list should have some mix of GKSS and Henchmen, maybe unless you're bringing IG allies (which essentially do everything Henchmen do, except better).


Any recommendations or example lists I should be looking at for inspiration then?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

It's kinda hard, since there's so much you can do with henchmen, but have a read of the henchmen section of this- http://www.heresy-online.net/forums...s/126440-grey-knights-6th-edition-troops.html

That article contains basically all of the henchmen builds I would deem good. As for lists, basically they operate very similarly to the more common GK+IG builds you'll see around, so for say 1750-2000pts you might have something to the effect of:

Coteaz

10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Psyammo, Rhino
10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Psyammo, Rhino
10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Psyammo

5 Warrior Acolytes w/ Bolters, Razorback w/TL Heavy Bolter, Psyammo
5 Warrior Acolytes w/ Bolters, Razorback w/TL Heavy Bolter, Psyammo

4 DCA, Crusader

Stormraven

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator 
Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator

Psyfledread

That's just a an army I made up off the top of my head; it could very well be completely over points anyways, but it gives you a basic idea of the sort of stuff you can do. The Warrior Acolytes can be given special weapons if you want, probably either plasma or melta, depending on the meta. For allies you could consider dropping the DCA, Stormraven and Dreadknights to bring in either Tau or Necrons- they both provide the AA that this list severely lacks.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

coke123 said:


> It's kinda hard, since there's so much you can do with henchmen, but have a read of the henchmen section of this- http://www.heresy-online.net/forums...s/126440-grey-knights-6th-edition-troops.html
> 
> That article contains basically all of the henchmen builds I would deem good. As for lists, basically they operate very similarly to the more common GK+IG builds you'll see around, so for say 1750-2000pts you might have something to the effect of:
> 
> ...


Local Meta is 1,500 here so I don't think I'd be able to squeeze all of that into a game anytime soon, but thanks for the ideas. Not nearly as many Henchmen as I was expecting honestly.


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## 1ale4 (Jun 12, 2013)

Justicar_Bob said:


> Not nearly as many Henchmen as I was expecting honestly.


Either you use henchmen help fitting the GK's lacks, so you just make the most effective combination with the points that you don't use for your core, or you build your army around coteaz and spam as many henchmen as the points allow you.

I warmly suggest you to read coke's post on tactica, it *WILL* help you build a good list.


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## w0lfgang7 (Feb 10, 2013)

coke123 said:


> ...so for say 1750-2000pts you might have something to the effect of:
> 
> Coteaz
> 
> ...



This list actually comes to 1930 as written. So, not bad for a list off the top of your head!


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

1ale4 said:


> Either you use henchmen help fitting the GK's lacks, so you just make the most effective combination with the points that you don't use for your core, or you build your army around coteaz and spam as many henchmen as the points allow you.
> 
> I warmly suggest you to read coke's post on tactica, it *WILL* help you build a good list.


I've actually read both of his articles and while insightful (though a bit biased to the _majesty_ of Corteaz and his merry band of Inquisitorial Henchmen I think) they really haven't cemented in my head all that well. I guess it might be the shift from armies I've played in the past that had more bodies to accomplish tasks with, or a mental roadblock from all the GK backlash during 5th that's keeping it from all falling into place at the moment.

Honestly at the moment I think I like the Grey Knights as I've seen them in the fiction more so than on the table. I'm trying to see if there is stuff that I like and want to field, but it's just not clicking at the moment. 6th Edition looks like it took most of the wind out of their sails, even against Daemons and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

I haven't given up on seeing them on the table, but with the local meta I play in only being 1,500 points I feel like I'm lacking a lot of the ability to dig deep enough into the codex to build a reasonable take all comers list right now.

I may end up just slowly building the army on the side (and painting them as I go) in hopes that they get some flair back when they get their next book.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

One thing that stuck out to me was the servitors are very cheap for a heavy weapon, although they can only really go with an inquisitor.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

Suijin said:


> One thing that stuck out to me was the servitors are very cheap for a heavy weapon, although they can only really go with an inquisitor.


Yeah, Mindlock really keeps Servitors from being awesome.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Coteaz

8 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
9 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
9 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
10 Strike Knights with 2 Psycannons, Daemonhammer and Psybolt, Rhino
10 Strike Knights with 2 Psycannons, Daemonhammer and Psybolt, Rhino

Dreadnought with Autocannons and Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought with Autocannons and Psybolt Ammunition

Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun

Something like so?

Midnight


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Justicar_Bob said:


> Local Meta is 1,500 here so I don't think I'd be able to squeeze all of that into a game anytime soon, but thanks for the ideas. Not nearly as many Henchmen as I was expecting honestly.


Generally, the henchmen should be supporting a Grey Knight core. The real problem with Henchmen only armies is that a lot of the time they're basically just Imperial Guardsmen that are worse- so you need a good reason to not be bringing Guard allies. The most common reason for doing this is that you're bringing other allies, probably Necrons or Tau, or perhaps you're at an event that restricts allies somehow (ETC/ATC spring to mind).

I didn't include this in my tactica, because I generally try to avoid telling people to just play a different book, but it's pretty much true.



1ale4 said:


> Either you use henchmen help fitting the GK's lacks, so you just make the most effective combination with the points that you don't use for your core, or you build your army around coteaz and spam as many henchmen as the points allow you.
> 
> I warmly suggest you to read coke's post on tactica, it *WILL* help you build a good list.


Yay, I'm a Heresy Celebrity! Wooooo! *throws streamers in air*



w0lfgang7 said:


> This list actually comes to 1930 as written. So, not bad for a list off the top of your head!


Actually, it's fucking awful, seeing as how Australians play 1850 



Justicar_Bob said:


> Yeah, Mindlock really keeps Servitors from being awesome.


They'd be fucking busted if they didn't have it though. You'd pretty much need to double the price of the base servitor if it didn't have Mindlock- could you imagine 20pt plasma cannons behind an Aegis? Draigowing wouldn't have even been the thing people bitched about in 5th edition, it would've been the "lol48plasmacannonswing".



MidnightSun said:


> Coteaz
> 
> 8 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
> 9 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
> ...


This is a pretty workable list, although I'd probably switch to Razorbacks (they're twin linked and cheaper) and drop the Jokaero, since they're really not that flash. With those changes you should be able to grab another Razorback squad and maybe a solodin or special weapons or something if you have extra points lying around. Arguments could be made to either give the GKSS Razorbacks (more S6 spam, which is essentially what this list does), and to drop the Hammer (it's a mite inefficient, but not awful and it's nice to have answers to Dreadnoughts/MCs), but yeah, a pretty good place to start.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> Coteaz
> 
> 8 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
> 9 Warrior Acolytes with Storm Bolters and Jokaero Weaponsmith in Inquisitorial Chimera
> ...


That actually comes out to 1502 if my math is correct, but that's easily solved by dropping one of the Acoyltes from one of the squads of 9 which gives the list 5 extra points to play with.

Either way I do like the idea of having nearly 60 bodies on the table. I think I'd consider losing a couple extra Acolytes for Melta or Plasmaguns in each of the squads (why must you be so expensive Plasmagun? ) to give the units some extra light tank killing power, and some AP2 or better.

That said, that is closer to what I was thinking of. I have no idea how that'd play honestly, but it's pretty good looking I think.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

coke123 said:


> Actually, it's fucking awful, seeing as I play 1850


Fixed that for you mate. 

Do bear in mind that the manner in which you chose to play the game is only representative of that, there is a vast number of others out there in Oz (and the world) who go about it in different and equally valid ways.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

coke123 said:


> Generally, the henchmen should be supporting a Grey Knight core. The real problem with Henchmen only armies is that a lot of the time they're basically just Imperial Guardsmen that are worse- so you need a good reason to not be bringing Guard allies. The most common reason for doing this is that you're bringing other allies, probably Necrons or Tau, or perhaps you're at an event that restricts allies somehow (ETC/ATC spring to mind).


Fair enough there.



coke123 said:


> I didn't include this in my tactica, because I generally try to avoid telling people to just play a different book, but it's pretty much true.


Speaking personally I've never seen it end well when that happens anyways. People who want to play X don't want to be told to go take Y instead.



coke123 said:


> They'd be fucking busted if they didn't have it though. You'd pretty much need to double the price of the base servitor if it didn't have Mindlock- could you imagine 20pt plasma cannons behind an Aegis? Draigowing wouldn't have even been the thing people bitched about in 5th edition, it would've been the "lol48plasmacannonswing".


You're right. The real issue is the Techmarine can't take a Servitor Retinue or keep the Servitors from mind-locking by hopping into a Henchmen unit. That would have made me like them a lot more over Jokareo for heavy weapons in the Henchmen squads.



coke123 said:


> This is a pretty workable list, although I'd probably switch to Razorbacks (they're twin linked and cheaper) and drop the Jokaero, since they're really not that flash. With those changes you should be able to grab another Razorback squad and maybe a solodin or special weapons or something if you have extra points lying around. Arguments could be made to either give the GKSS Razorbacks (more S6 spam, which is essentially what this list does), and to drop the Hammer (it's a mite inefficient, but not awful and it's nice to have answers to Dreadnoughts/MCs), but yeah, a pretty good place to start.


Odd that I hear MSU/Razorback is dead but then it gets recommended all the time. Weird place for the meta I guess.

The problem I see with Razorbacks is the squads are then stuck at 6 models max, and are paying an additional 40 points to bring a Psycannon on top.

That means the squad loses 4 wounds to take a transport that is armed with only 1 weapon (not two like the Chimera is), which is still a medium-strength gun (S7, Heavy 4, Rending vs S6, Heavy 4, and S5, Heavy 3) that needs you to be lucky to scratch heavier armor. Adding in that the unit also loses it's counter-charge option (Heavy Flamer on the Jokaero which is a nice deterent), which also loses them their dedicated anti-armour/MC wounding option (Lascannon and Multi-Melta, the latter of which is pretty important if you get stuck across the table with an opponent who has anything AV14) to shave off 19 points.

So the unit loses 6 additional Bolter shots at 24" or less (30" if you move) (not to mention the 3 additional wounds in the unit that go away due to the smaller ride), it's Heavy Flamer/Lascannon/Multi-Melta options, it's potential bonus from the Jokaero (+12" range, +1 to Armor Save, Rending, 5+ Invul Save or 2 of those options if you roll well) which would increase it's abilities further, lose it's free secondary heavy weapon off it's ride, and is generally easier to kill due to it's small unit size, lack of defensive buffs (5+ armour in a game where most weapons are AP5 or better), low toughness to gain +1S and Rending on the transport's gun (which said transport has to be within 24" to use by the way) and decrease the front AV by 1 making it easier to punch holes in the front from across the board.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that these changes are better. Also this is 6th edition were I see the claim that Purifier MSU in Razorbacks is dead, why would it be better to then take Strike Squads (who don't have the nice anti-horde psychic power) in the same configurations?

But that's just my thoughts, and I'd like to hear the counter points on it.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Bob: just about everything you just mentioned about the Razorback seems to be neglecting one fundamental issue: GK can Combat Squad. You can take 10 men with a razorback, and 5 get in the tank.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

How would you get 48 Plasma Cannons with Servitors ?


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

Xabre said:


> Bob: just about everything you just mentioned about the Razorback seems to be neglecting one fundamental issue: GK can Combat Squad. You can take 10 men with a razorback, and 5 get in the tank.


So can Purifers (who also get more Psycannons per squad), yet I still see statements that they're basically a "leave at home" unit these days.

Also, walking Power Armor is a horrible plan. The effective range of a Grey Knight is 30" tops. If he's walking, he's not nearly as effective for the first half of the game while he can be easily picked off. The only times I've seen walking PA work well is when you can bring a large number of models (say a maxed out horde of PA DA and the Salvo Banner or the Black Tide). Grey Knights don't do large hoards well (except maybe the Henchmen, but even then you're tapped out at 72 models for Troops).

But that might just be my point of view from what I've seen in my games and others.



Magpie_Oz said:


> How would you get 48 Plasma Cannons with Servitors ?


Servitors with Plasma Cannon | Games Workshop There's one. Two if you convert. Actually buying bits and converting would be the easiest way. Fantasy models, guitar string and plasma cannons for the win?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Justicar_Bob said:


> Servitors with Plasma Cannon | Games Workshop There's one. Two if you convert. Actually buying bits and converting would be the easiest way. Fantasy models, guitar string and plasma cannons for the win?


Sure the models are easy enough, I'm using Necrons myself, but the problem is you can only have 3 per warband.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Sure the models are easy enough, I'm using Necrons myself, but the problem is you can only have 3 per warband.


True enough. You could get 18 per FOC. So 36 max with double FOC.

But I think his point was people would spam as many as you could in an army.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Sure the models are easy enough, I'm using Necrons myself, but the problem is you can only have 3 per warband.


Because I was confusing MMs with Plasma Cannons, and didn't have my codex on hand . Still, 20pt plasma cannons with no drawback is absurdly undercosted, agreed?



Justicar_Bob said:


> True enough. You could get 18 per FOC. So 36 max with double FOC.
> 
> But I think his point was people would spam as many as you could in an army.


Yup


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

coke123 said:


> Because I was confusing MMs with Plasma Cannons, and didn't have my codex on hand . Still, 20pt plasma cannons with no drawback is absurdly undercosted, agreed?


Ah I see, you can only have 3 MM as well tho'

I've not really used servitors before and I've always been a little bit concerned about the Get's Hot thing with them as they seem so fragile. 

Is the BS 3 of the servitors a big problem?

Of course with "I've been expecting you" it's pretty easy to whack a Servo Skull in the middle of the unit and get the buff


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

While the Servitor stuff is cool, it still doesn't answer how Combat Squaded Strike Squads in Razorbacks are some how better than Combat Squaded Purifiers in Razorbacks (which apparently is now a horrible idea in the current edition based on the numerous tacticas and unit reviews I've seen lately).

I don't really like the idea of walking troops up the board in such low numbers (the other half of the squads), but I'd still like to hear the logic on this one.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I think it mainly comes down to expense and the perception of seeing Crowe as nothing other than a tax.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it's a case of what do Purifiers do that nobody else can? If you want GK you take Strike Squads, because scoring = awesome. If you want scoring Purifiers, you gotta take Crowe instead of a good HQ. If you want anti-horde, you take Imperial Guard allies who have Manticores, which are better anti-horde than Purifiers, as well as Guardsmen, who are great scoring units, and Vendettas, which are just good. Purifiers are too expensive for a non-Scoring, non-unique unit that has better counterparts available through Allies.

Midnight


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> I think it's a case of what do Purifiers do that nobody else can? If you want GK you take Strike Squads, because scoring = awesome. If you want scoring Purifiers, you gotta take Crowe instead of a good HQ. If you want anti-horde, you take Imperial Guard allies who have Manticores, which are better anti-horde than Purifiers, as well as Guardsmen, who are great scoring units, and Vendettas, which are just good. Purifiers are too expensive for a non-Scoring, non-unique unit that has better counterparts available through Allies.
> 
> Midnight


I get the idea of taking Strike Squads over Purifiers for most things, but I don't get how Strike Squads with Psycannon Razorbacks somehow gets over the problems of Purifiers in Razorbacks with Psycannons. Just on a unit to unit comparison if Purifiers (who can bring more bang in a small package than Strike Squads) aren't a good choice in Razorbacks, why are Strike Squads all of a sudden able to overcome the same problems of not having numbers, forcing unit members to walk and having a small threat range for the unit members stuck without the vehicle?

I'm not trying to criticize Coke, I just don't get his thinking on this one, because even factoring them in being scoring from the get go everything about this edition tells me that Grey Knights don't belong in Razorbacks this edition unless you're not relying on them to try and be your scoring units (like a small unit of Purifiers as an Anti-Horde elite choice is more acceptable when not scoring since you don't need it to live to keep objectives under your control).

Henchmen on the other hand, I could kind of see as a good choice to throw in a Razorback, due to the low cost and ease at which you can take 6 full units of them without breaking the bank, but honestly I like the Chimera for them better since it comes with 2 guns standard, and holds more models.

I am curious what people do to handle hordes outside of allies. Is there a good method for it?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Justicar_Bob said:


> I get the idea of taking Strike Squads over Purifiers for most things, but I don't get how Strike Squads with Psycannon Razorbacks somehow gets over the problems of Purifiers in Razorbacks with Psycannons. Just on a unit to unit comparison if Purifiers (who can bring more bang in a small package than Strike Squads) aren't a good choice in Razorbacks, why are Strike Squads all of a sudden able to overcome the same problems of not having numbers, forcing unit members to walk and having a small threat range for the unit members stuck without the vehicle?


The issue is that you're doing a unit vs unit comparison, instead of looking at the army as a whole. If you take the cheaper option, then you're able to fit in more elsewhere- and you only really lose one psycannon. The point difference between the purifier squad and the strike squad is 20pts- thats two plasma/melta guns on a henchmen squad, for instance. It adds up, and you can fit in more firepower or models (depending on how you choose to invest your savings). Alternatively- it's the Psybolt Ammunition upgrade on a Stormraven, which is insanely more powerful than +1 Psycannon.



Justicar_Bob said:


> I'm not trying to criticize Coke, I just don't get his thinking on this one, because even factoring them in being scoring from the get go everything about this edition tells me that Grey Knights don't belong in Razorbacks this edition unless you're not relying on them to try and be your scoring units (like a small unit of Purifiers as an Anti-Horde elite choice is more acceptable when not scoring since you don't need it to live to keep objectives under your control).
> 
> Henchmen on the other hand, I could kind of see as a good choice to throw in a Razorback, due to the low cost and ease at which you can take 6 full units of them without breaking the bank, but honestly I like the Chimera for them better since it comes with 2 guns standard, and holds more models.


You're right, generally Grey Knights aren't that crash hot in Razorbacks, but if you want to run the Henchmen in Razorbacks army, then I'd probably bring some, mostly to help with resilient scoring whilst maintaining mech saturation.



Justicar_Bob said:


> I am curious what people do to handle hordes outside of allies. Is there a good method for it?


Storm Bolters should be plenty of anti horde- You just crush Orks with them, and you also beat little Tyranids pretty well as well- it's the MCs you need to deal with.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Justicar_Bob said:


> I'm not trying to criticize Coke, I just don't get his thinking on this one, because even factoring them in being scoring from the get go everything about this edition tells me that Grey Knights don't belong in Razorbacks this edition unless you're not relying on them to try and be your scoring units (like a small unit of Purifiers as an Anti-Horde elite choice is more acceptable when not scoring since you don't need it to live to keep objectives under your control).


You're pretty much right, Grey Knights belong in Rhinos. Razorbacks aren't dead though, and mobile Twin-Linked Psycannons/LOS blockers are still valuable. You can't put your army in them anymore (despite what people say, mech isn't dead - 6+6 is dead, but mech isn't), but having 2 units of 10 Strikes in Rhinos and 2 units of 5 in Razorbacks is a good way to go if you're not taking Henchmen (ie taking Guard allies).



Justicar_Bob said:


> Henchmen on the other hand, I could kind of see as a good choice to throw in a Razorback, due to the low cost and ease at which you can take 6 full units of them without breaking the bank, but honestly I like the Chimera for them better since it comes with 2 guns standard, and holds more models.


Agreed, Chimera's probably superior.



Justicar_Bob said:


> I am curious what people do to handle hordes outside of allies. Is there a good method for it?


Psycannons and Storm Bolters - the GK codex is practically made to dismantle hordes at range with the right balance of quantity and quality of fire to really take Orks and Tyranids apart. Divination from Coteaz or any other Inquisitor really helps here.

Midnight


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

The issue with Chimeras is that they can actually be kinda hard to use effectively, if you make even a slight mistake with their placement (with armour facings) then someone who understands their weaknesses will pretty much crump them. They're also not all that hot in the midfield, where Razorbacks do OK due to decent side armour.

Still, Chimeras are fine.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

What are the finer points of hiding your side armour ?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> What are the finer points of hiding your side armour ?


Taking more Chimeras.

Midnight


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Taking more Chimeras.
> 
> Midnight


That just makes for more sides.


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

Magpie_Oz said:


> That just makes for more sides.


I think it was a reference to the Guard "Wall of Chimera" tactic where the vehicles are clumped tightly together so that only the sides on the very ends are visible to hit.

Now this has problems (Death Rays and Large Blast Ordnance both do well dealing with this) but generally speaking it does help a lot to keep that AV10 from being as easily hit.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> That just makes for more sides.


Not when you've got board edges at either end of the wall.

Midnight


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## Justicar_Bob (Jul 16, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> Not when you've got board edges at either end of the wall.
> 
> Midnight


Grey Knights run into a bit of limitation on this. They've got a cap of 6 until you double FOC, then a cap of 12, not really enough to reach from edge to edge of the board.


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