# Razorbacks?



## sphere830 (Aug 4, 2009)

Well, I'm finally building and painting my army up to 1500 points. Along with this collection comes with a RB transport for my captain and sternguard. My question is this, is there ever a time to blow 35 points on a Lascannons? It just seems very expensive. I am modeling it so that it will double as a rhino. However, Im just about to model the gun as a twin linked Heavy Bolter and be done with it. Will I end up regretting not setting it up for a Lascannons? Any sage advice?


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

I only pay for the lascannons in apoc or if I don't have a better use for the 35pts after I've built my list. Generally I would say its really not worth your while. Put the lascannons elsewhere for cheaper.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

If you're running small squads (or combat squadding your biog ones) razorback is an excellent choice, but stick to the HB.

Here's a thread with an insanely long writeup I did on razorbacks

Generally speaking, HB is the best way to go. Put your lascannons in the back-half of your tacticals. Lascan and 4 bolters (or 3 bolters and a plasgun) with your Fist, Melta or flamer (if you didn't take a plasgun) riding in the HB Razor.

Razor provides close-range anti-troop fire support for the assault unit. Pull up relatively close, deploy within 12" of the enemy unit, but with the razor parked sideways between you and them so they have to move around it to assault you (and can't because they wasted movement on moving around it...this requires a good eye for range). Rake the enemy unit with your HB then next turn move the razor out of the way and that gives your assault team a straight shot to the enemy unit

Meanwhile your back field fire team provides your heavy weapon support


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Razorbacks aren't so useful because often times you'll be moving 12" and won't get to fire anything. If you want shooty transports, play Sisters and take Immos. Now those are a fun unit.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

So?

A rhino is 35 points
A Razor is 40.

Even if you are constantly moving the razor 12" every single turn (which shouldn't be the case) and never fire the HBs, you've 'wasted' all of 5 points.

But if you fire them at all (like, say, *after* you deploy the unit inside?) you're almost guaranteed to kill more than 5 points worth of models.

If you're not planning to transport more than 5 or 6 models, then why *not* take a razor? IMO it's wasteful not to spend 5 points for a TL heavy bolter if capacity isn't an issue.

Meanwhile, the Immolator is a lot more expensive and much, much less practical.
In the writeup I linked above I mentioned Heavy Flamer razors (and that's all an immo is, excet it gets to move 12 and fire). Unless you have assault ramps like a raider, you never want your transport so close that you can use the flamer because you'll be deploying within assault range of the enemy units.

You cannot fire that wondergun for the first couple rounds since it's most certainly out of range. So being able to move and fire is a non-issue since you're not in range (and that range isn't going to be much, remember, now you have to line the template up from the barrel, not the hull, so if you're shooting forward you're not going to catch many models)

So how is it wasteful not to shoot a 5 point gun once or twice, but paying a ton more points for a heavy flamer you still can't shoot because of range and deployment issues any better?

I hate to break it to Sisters fans, but the immolator is not at all a good transport option. Maye as a solo tank to harass enemies like a poor man's hellhound, but not as a transport. You just don;t want to deploy that close.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Apparently you've never played against immo spam. 

Sure, if you don't plan on carrying over 6 people, don't need a top hatch, don't need assault capabilities, and don't plan on moving over 6" then the Razorback can be useful. It's conditional, but rhinos are much more ubiquitous for a reason.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

sooch said:


> Apparently you've never played against immo spam.


I have, actually, with blood Angels no less.
Somehow I managed to survive a swarm of paper-thin transports armed with flamers that can only shoot a couple inches forward. There were a couple armed with multimeltas that were a problem, but that's what ML dev squads are for.

I sent 50 point MM Attack Bikes to kill 65 point transports, out of range of their flamers (I didn't even need to get in melta range). They can move 12" and fire too, you know 

I think one of the immolators did manage to take me unawares with its speed and got a shot off at one of my veteran assault squads. The veteran assault squad made their saves before proceeding to blow it to shreds the next turn and assault the passengers. (Wiped them too. 8 VAs with two meltas and a powerfist. Three of the girls went down to the fist on the charge, the rest were cut down by the other 28 chainsword attacks)



> Sure, if you don't plan on carrying over 6 people, don't need a top hatch,


Check and check. Remember, we're talking about transporting the assault element of a combat squad. Five models and no need for the top hatch since the unit will be disembarking as soon as the meltagun (if present) is in range.

Plus, if you move more than 6" you can't use the top hatch, which in your logic renders it conditional and therefore worthless.
But continue...

Also, the 6 model limit describes immos as well, so that's a wash as far as your argument goes.



> don't need assault capabilities,


Whaa? I have no idea what you're talking about here.
Define "Assault capabilities" please?
Sure, they don't have Land Raider style Assault Ramps, or Open Tops, but neither does the almighty Immo, or the Rhino for that matter. This doesn't make any sense.

If you;re referring to the weapon complement, then see the post I linked above for a full discourse on how the heavy flamer option is inferior to HB for an Assault Transport role.

Remember how I said you want to deploy about 12" away from the enemy with the tank as a barrier so you don't get assaulted by the enemy upon disembarking? And that you could use the HB to shoot up your enemy before you charge? (even if you moved 12" before disembarking, you can still get a shot off next turn after you move out of the way for your assault unit)

But if you're using flamers, you have to get ridiculously close to the enemy to actually hit with them, which means you're *too* close to deploy for an assault. If you deploy your troops within flamer range then they are just begging to be assaulted by the enemy, or at the very least, shot up by rapid fire weapons.

So if you want "Assault Capabilities" I'd say the HB razor has it in spades over the immo and rhino (though at least the rhino can still fire its storm bolter)




> and don't plan on moving over 6"


Did...did you even read my previous post? The one where I said "So what if you can't fire the heavy bolter every turn, it only costs five points?" Did you hear where I said that firing it even once will probably earn its points back? Did you see where I said it doesn't matter if an immo can fire its flamers after moving 12" because chances are it won't be in range for at least a turn or two?

Go ahead and move that razorback 12". Like I said, if you spend the entire game moving 12" you've wasted all of 5 points. Big loss. But in reality you're probably only going to miss a turn or two of shooting.

Missing a couple turns of shooting with a 35 point lascannon that makes you an instant target is a waste (since you'll probably get shot to hell really soon) Missing a turn or two of sooting with a 5 point HB is no loss.

Now, if you want to compare prices, the immo costs 25 points over the razorback for what is, essentially, the same damned tank but with a much shorter range weapon that can fire if you move. As I said before, chances are you're going to miss out on at least one or two turns with of shooting just from not being in range...so who's wasting points?

Hell, you may as well say you shouldn't take a rhino if you want to move over 6" because you can't fire the storm bolter. :no:



> then the Razorback can be useful. It's conditional, but rhinos are much more ubiquitous for a reason.


The razorback is no more conditional than the immolator.
Yes, if you want to transport 10 models, then yeah, you want a Rhino.

But that is the *only* condition that makes the rhino a superior choice.
If you're only transporting 5-6 models then there is no reason not to take the razorback.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Ugh. Note to self - posting at 4am is not conducive to rational arguments. Will respond later with a more reasonable argument and address your ownage of immo spam, off to class now.

PLACEHOLDER


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I've got to agree with Calahad. RB's are excellent choices for small units, and more often than not they make up for their points cost.


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## sphere830 (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks so much for the discourse. I think I have what I wanted out of this thread and a bit of an education on how to use the razorback. Kudos for the help. I have decided to build the RB with the HB option and leave the back cargo lid to double as a rhino also. So my general strategy is this, every unit that I build gets some sort of transport. For example, I'm painting up a 5 sternguard unit to accompany my captain in 1k games. I decided to go for a Razorback for their transport. However, in 1.5k games, I have 2x Vindicators for heavy support. So, in larger games I may use the RB as a Rhino and add a few more veterans to the squad. I also have two more dedicated rhinos for tactical squads. My next project is two drop pods transporting various units in, one being my dread, the other I have not decided but will most likely use it in my 2k list. Again any comments are welcome and thanks for the response and continuing discourse, which I learned from.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

sooch said:


> Ugh. Note to self - posting at 4am is not conducive to rational arguments. Will respond later with a more reasonable argument and address your ownage of immo spam, off to class now.
> 
> PLACEHOLDER


Fair enough. 
I'm not trying to say immos are worthless, but they're basically just expensive razorbacks. And given the choice between an immo and a TLHF razor, I'd rather have the immo (Same price, just the immo gets to fire at 6"), but the TLHF is, in my opinion, the worst possible razorback configuration. Given the choice in general I'd take almost anything else.

Twin meltas is nasty and I wish it were an option, but for the cost (+45 more than TLHB razor) I'd skip it.

If you're transporting a small squad there's no reason not to take a TLHB razor. It's 5 more than a half-empty rhino and has a nice set of guns that you don't have to feel guilty about not using all the time. So what if you don't always use them, they only cost you 5 points.

I might take a rhino if I were transporting a librarian with a bitchin' badass shooting power, maybe. 

As for the immo spam list, the guy probably wasn't very good. IT struck me as one of those "I heard these are good from the internet, so I'll take as many as I can" he didn't have enough sisters to get any decent miracles out, and except for the pipe organ tank thing, he really had no anti-armor except for some melta-chicks, who were locked inside the immos most of the time. I had an 8 man VAS, 8 man DC, a couple miniature assault squads ('flying fists'), a baal, a dex team (4xML) and a whole mess of attack bikes (this was 4th, when yo didn't have to max out your troops to get by)



sphere830 said:


> Thanks so much for the discourse. I think I have what I wanted out of this thread and a bit of an education on how to use the razorback. Kudos for the help. I have decided to build the RB with the HB option and leave the back cargo lid to double as a rhino also. So my general strategy is this, every unit that I build gets some sort of transport. For example, I'm painting up a 5 sternguard unit to accompany my captain in 1k games. I decided to go for a Razorback for their transport. However, in 1.5k games, I have 2x Vindicators for heavy support. So, in larger games I may use the RB as a Rhino and add a few more veterans to the squad. I also have two more dedicated rhinos for tactical squads. My next project is two drop pods transporting various units in, one being my dread, the other I have not decided but will most likely use it in my 2k list. Again any comments are welcome and thanks for the response and continuing discourse, which I learned from.


Oh yeah, always make your tanks modular if you can.

I've got a half dozen rhino chasis that can become predators, razorbacks or rhinos in seconds, thanks to the miracle of magnets

If you want more info on using razors, check that link from my first post. It was a really long guide on razors and their usage.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Immolators are pretty bad. More expensive than Rhinos and just as survivable, except they have a big "SHOOT ME FIRST" sign printed on them.

However your example of beating an Immo list with an Assault based army isn't exactly indicative of how useful they can be. If your opponent was capable of managing his transports/charges properly then your Assaulty unit thing would have taken 2x Heavy Flamer shots, 1x Flamer shot and X bolter shots (with 2 of the templates and the bolters having AP1 on 6s to wound). Power armoured assault-based armies is one of the worst matchups a Sister army can have. Against an equivalent points amount of Orks, for example, the Immolator would have laughed as it wiped out 9/10ths of the squad.

That said, Immolators will remain a poor transport until the next codex. Mind you, we're still paying 50pts per Rhino with no smoke (if not using Imperial Armour) so comparing SoB transports with an army that has a new codex is rather redundant. It's like saying the 2009 Kawasaki Ninja is better than the 2006 one... kinda "duh" really.

I agree with you Galahad, but there are situations where Immolators can be useful so deserve a little more than a total whitewash. They're just outclassed by new rules and new codicies.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sethis said:


> Immolators are pretty bad. More expensive than Rhinos and just as survivable, except they have a big "SHOOT ME FIRST" sign printed on them.
> 
> However your example of beating an Immo list with an Assault based army isn't exactly indicative of how useful they can be.


Fair point. Like I said, it didn't seem like the guy knew entirely what he was doing. But it seems to me that a build focusing on small squads is going to be kind of poor in general. Don't they need bigger squads to work their faith effectively?



> If your opponent was capable of managing his transports/charges properly then your Assaulty unit thing would have taken 2x Heavy Flamer shots, 1x Flamer shot and X bolter shots (with 2 of the templates and the bolters having AP1 on 6s to wound). Power armoured assault-based armies is one of the worst matchups a Sister army can have. Against an equivalent points amount of Orks, for example, the Immolator would have laughed as it wiped out 9/10ths of the squad.


I think he was too enamored with his rolling coffins. Most of the girls ended up tangled up in wreckage rather than smartly deploying before their transports got within melta range.



> That said, Immolators will remain a poor transport until the next codex. Mind you, we're still paying 50pts per Rhino with no smoke (if not using Imperial Armour) so comparing SoB transports with an army that has a new codex is rather redundant. It's like saying the 2009 Kawasaki Ninja is better than the 2006 one... kinda "duh" really.


Again, fair point.
But I wasn't the one who brought it up and claimed it was a far superior transport option  I stuck to comparing Rhinos and Razors, until Sooch popped in to inform us how much better immolators are.



> I agree with you Galahad, but there are situations where Immolators can be useful so deserve a little more than a total whitewash. They're just outclassed by new rules and new codicies.


True, true. And like I said, compared to a TLHF Razor, they're obviously superior.


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote: Oh yeah, always make your tanks modular if you can.

I've got a half dozen rhino chasis that can become predators, razorbacks or rhinos in seconds, thanks to the miracle of magnets :Quote

do you know of any guides for magnetizing? i really need some pointers...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm sure if you check the Conversions and Green Stuff section of our Tutorials forum you'll find something.

It wasn't really hard though. Magnets, glue, done. Maybe a little drilling to set the magnets flush if there's not enough room.

Alternately you could just use pins, they usually hold as well or better, but as they;re swapped in and out they slowly make the holes a little bigger and start fitting looser, but usually it's not an issue.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Something that I feel has been understated is the benefit of the rhino top hatch. In the fairly common mech vs mech matchups it ends up being a game to see who can peel away the armoured layer first to get at the squishy troops inside. The top hatch lets your marines shoot meltaguns out the top hatch to put the hurt on first. The tank is an ablative layer to buy the squad inside at least a turn of respite. The upgrade from rhino to rback is in the same price bracket as an extra combi weapon to make the top hatch shooting more effective.

On the other hand, chimera top hatchs totally top trump silly rhinos...

Having a rhino gives you the option of transporting the full squad if you wish. To use a razorback you have to combat squad (or take a small squad originally). More options is always more gooder.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I don't like getting my transports that close to the enemy with my boys still inside though.
I'd rather pull up, deploy behind the tank and use its heavy bolters (and shooting around it with the melta if there's range for it) than stay inside and shoot out. THis way I can pull the razor away next tuen and be within charge range.

The exception being if I have a sorcerer or librarian with a really good shooting power, in which case it's better to have the hatch by far.

And naturally, if you're not running combat squads it's best to have a big squad and thus a rhino. You won't see 6 grey hunters in a razor any time soon.

I'm not going to tell you the razorback is the only option worth taking.
*but* if you;re taking a small squad, I think it's a no-brainer in most cases.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally, I'm not into razorbacks except for units that don't usually need a transport. For those units they are a great way of getting a nice little cheap tank.

For any unit I'm actually going to transport, I like rhinos. I know I could have a razorback for 5 points more, but then I wouldn't be able to fire my melta gun out of the top - or my other melta gun, or my sternguard's hellfire ammo. I'd just be able to fire a lame heavy bolter and achieve... well a little bit, I guess.

Rhinos are really great because they give you a bunker. I can have pedro sit in a rhino and drop his orbital bomb on somebody's head. He can't see out of the razorback to do that. A tactical squad in a rhino has the option of putting on the brakes and shooting something with a missile launcher. This isn't efficient at all compared to buying a real tank but it's often a good option if that's what's needed in the situation. Meanwhile they are difficult to shoot dead and, while you can assault the rhino, you will have to deal with the marines the turn after.

Devastators and (especially) wolf guard are when I'd start to look at razorbacks. These guys don't really need a transport and they couldn't fire their guns out of the tank if it moved so the rhino isn't so good for them.

I do like razorbacks as tanks; particularly the lascannon and plasma gun variant. It's a real bargain amount of firepower for its cost and you can't get an independent, mobile lascannon for anything like its cost in the marine book. Squadrons of razorbacks, if they existed, would be pretty competitive compared to things like obliterators and war walkers. Predators with lascannons are massively more expensive, can't carry anyone and only have more armour on one facing. If I could, I'd take razorbacks instead. As things stand the lascannon is over-priced in general in the marine list, so meltas are taken instead.

The only problem with razorbacks is that they need a squad before you can take one, and the squad needs a rhino. It's no good taking a 75 point transport if it will hardly ever fire and actually make the unit inside worse off than if it was in the cheaper vehicle.

So yeah, I basically just disagree with Galahad for the sake of it. Take razorbacks if you can, but mostly take rhinos.


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## marlow (Jul 18, 2008)

Someguy said:


> The only problem with razorbacks is that they need a squad before you can take one, and the squad needs a rhino. It's no good taking a 75 point transport if it will hardly ever fire and actually make the unit inside worse off than if it was in the cheaper vehicle.
> 
> So yeah, I basically just disagree with Galahad for the sake of it. Take razorbacks if you can, but mostly take rhinos.


This is my view if I ever have a unit not needing a Rhino I buy the Razorback as a light tank and mobile terrain. I just do not seem find many squads where that is an option. Works for Longfang/Devs, Sternguard and command Squads. Wolf Guard too since they will almost never be around to use there own transport.


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