# Are Walkers Amazing in 5th?



## akiasura (Jun 13, 2008)

To me it seems that walkers, especially of the CC variety, are getting a large increase in power. In most armies, under 4th edition, walkers are generally more of a shooty unit. Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Eldar Walkers, Wraithlord (Included due to purpose, not vechile stats), are generally taken with the idea of shooting First, fighting Second. This is due to a variety of factors.

-Speed. With the exception of the Defiler, all walkers crawl across the battle field. The Dreadnought can deepstrike, true. But 6" a turn is still a slow speed for subsquent turns after the initial kill.

-Survivability. Walker armor 12 is a joke when your supposed to be up front getting in combat. They can't hide easily because they are slow vechiles. Getting into assault range is very difficult if you have to go around large cover to ensure you are not flanked and targetted.

-Combat Weakness. Walkers right now can not survive easily in CC with powerfist wielding, or rending, squads of infantry. Both have to many hits with said weapons and do to much damage. The walker also lacks the ability to wipe the enemy squad due to it's low number of attacks.

However, one thing walkers have going for them is they are cheap, relatively, and have good shooting. Ordance, two weapons a pieace, twin linked weapons are standard and useful. Many come with flamers, which are useful to have right before they hit combat. Most people take them for that reason, not for their "fluff" reasons.


In 5th edition we see the complete opposite of many of these things. 

-Speed. Walkers can now run instead of shooting. This allows them to move 6" +d6", possibly allowing for two turns of moving in shot! More accurately, half a turn, but this does allow a walker to reach combat by turn 3 or 4, which is much quicker then turn 4 or 5, as it is now.

-Survivability. All vechiles in 5th edition are getting cover saves. For walkers, this is a huge boost. Their ability to traverse terrain easier then other vechiles will allow them to gain access to cover almost as easily as infantry will. Slapping a 4+ or 5+ cover save on a vechile does help. Also, glancing no longer will destroy a vechile unless it has AP 1 or the vechile is open topped...and then just on a 6.

-Combat weakness. Powerfists and rending, which are the primary weaknesses of a walker in CC, are talking a hit in 5th edition. Marines will only have 2 attacks base, not 3. The change of him killing your walker has gone down. Rending only gains a d3 now, and only activates on a to wound roll. 

-Combat Strength. In 5th edition, leadership in combat works more like in fantasy. You take the leadership, minus the difference in wounds, and then roll to break. Most Walkers in CC will cause at least 2 kills a turn. However, the enemies will cause no kills, meaning they lose the combat on a -2. Marines are breaking on a 7+ and Necron on a 8+. Gaining that difference is hard for most squads in combat unless they are heavily dedicated to CC. Compare marines against Dire Avengers in CC and you will not see a large difference in kills. Probably only one or 2 points in 5th edition. Walkers, for the same cost as a squad of infantry or less, will cause the same difference in combat res.

Am I missing something, or are we going to see more walkers on everyone's lists?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

akiasura said:


> Am I missing something, or are we going to see more walkers on everyone's lists?


No, you seem to be right, but here's one more thing I'd like to point out.

Walkers are able to fire like stationary vehicles if they move. That means that a Dreadnought can move and fire both a lascannon AND missile launcher with no penalty. I dunno about you guys, but I'm thinking that Dreadnoughts are going to feature in my lists a lot more often.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Still don't see my sentinel charging into combat often.... cover saves..that may make them slightly more effective.


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

So does this mean theres going to be alot of power gamers taking _Heed the Wisdom Of the Ancients_ Trait from now:ireful2:
6 dreadies in one list all with the potential to be venerable:shok:
Not cool

peace out:victory:


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> No, you seem to be right, but here's one more thing I'd like to point out.
> 
> Walkers are able to fire like stationary vehicles if they move. That means that a Dreadnought can move and fire both a lascannon AND missile launcher with no penalty. I dunno about you guys, but I'm thinking that Dreadnoughts are going to feature in my lists a lot more often.


walkers were always able to move and fire all weapons as they are considered stable weapons platforms, been that way since 3rd edition.



akiasura said:


> To me it seems that walkers, especially of the CC variety, are getting a large increase in power. In most armies, under 4th edition, walkers are generally more of a shooty unit. Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Eldar Walkers, Wraithlord (Included due to purpose, not vechile stats), are generally taken with the idea of shooting First, fighting Second. This is due to a variety of factors.
> 
> 
> In 5th edition we see the complete opposite of many of these things.
> ...


except they can't charge if they run and they can't run if within 12" of the enemy i believe.



akiasura said:


> -Survivability. All vechiles in 5th edition are getting cover saves. For walkers, this is a huge boost. Their ability to traverse terrain easier then other vechiles will allow them to gain access to cover almost as easily as infantry will. Slapping a 4+ or 5+ cover save on a vechile does help. Also, glancing no longer will destroy a vechile unless it has AP 1 or the vechile is open topped...and then just on a 6.


unfortunatly if you plan on footsloggin them through cover that will majorly slow them down and won't make them much faster than they were before 



akiasura said:


> -Combat weakness. Powerfists and rending, which are the primary weaknesses of a walker in CC, are talking a hit in 5th edition. Marines will only have 2 attacks base, not 3. The change of him killing your walker has gone down. Rending only gains a d3 now, and only activates on a to wound roll.


problem is not necesarily that they can survive CC, its that they are god awful in CC. with WS 4 and only 2 attacks(other than chaos dreads and BA death company dreads), you are gonna kill 1 model a turn, hardly worth putting them in CC for when they could be firing multiple long range weapons from the safety of cover all game long. not to mention the fact that assault cannons are str 6 so if they rend you are auto pen'd no matter what they roll, only lower str rending attacks will be a tad harder to effect, such as daemonettes and genestealers. but if you take into account how many attacks they will be getting i am more than confident that you will have a dead dread in 1 round of combat almost everytime.




akiasura said:


> -Combat Strength. In 5th edition, leadership in combat works more like in fantasy. You take the leadership, minus the difference in wounds, and then roll to break. Most Walkers in CC will cause at least 2 kills a turn. However, the enemies will cause no kills, meaning they lose the combat on a -2. Marines are breaking on a 7+ and Necron on a 8+. Gaining that difference is hard for most squads in combat unless they are heavily dedicated to CC. Compare marines against Dire Avengers in CC and you will not see a large difference in kills. Probably only one or 2 points in 5th edition. Walkers, for the same cost as a squad of infantry or less, will cause the same difference in combat res.


they are not gonna get 2 kills a turn when you need to make both of your to hit rolls then again on your to wound rolls, you will miss 1/4 rolls there almost every turn, and thats not my opinion thats just odds. so that leaves LD tests with a measly -1 which won't break much.



akiasura said:


> Am I missing something, or are we going to see more walkers on everyone's lists?


more walkers maybe, but if your smart you will keep them in cover and shooty as thats where they excel. if you go putting venerable, and loading them out with weapons and dropd pods now your talking 200pt dreads that won't make up their points before they die.



SpaNNerZ said:


> So does this mean theres going to be alot of power gamers taking _Heed the Wisdom Of the Ancients_ Trait from now:ireful2:
> 6 dreadies in one list all with the potential to be venerable:shok:
> Not cool
> 
> peace out:victory:


in the new marine codex there will no longer be traits so i am not sure if the iron hands HQ unit will even get that ability to take 6 dreads any longer.


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

Ahhhh kk then well we can only hope I guess

peace out:victory:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

akiasura said:


> -Combat weakness. Powerfists and rending, which are the primary weaknesses of a walker in CC, are talking a hit in 5th edition. Marines will only have 2 attacks base, not 3.


What's changed with the marine not having 3 attacks anymore?


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Marines armed with Powerfists will not gain the +1 attack bonus for having two close-combat weapons unless the other weapon is also a powerfist. As most Marines do not have access to two powerfists (or the cost is just too restrictive), the Marine with powerfist will simply have to make do with the base 2 attacks +1 for charging and forget about the past +1 for two ccws.


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## Gannon (Mar 13, 2008)

bobafett hit it on the head. Traits will be a thing of the past come september, so enjoy your dread heavy lists while you can Space Marine players. Either way I'll be keeping my two in my SW army list. 

I think it's been stated before, but walkers will become the new Tanks. I'd expect to see quite a few more walkers taken and for tanks to die down quite a bit. I know I'll be hard pressed to put my two predator annihilators into my Assault Marine lists now. They just won't be able to keep up and flanking them will become too easy. I'll have to find other options for tank busting. 

Although the new assault veterans will probably fill that role quite nicely now. That's an extra 300 points of assault goodness in my 1750 list.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Hespithe said:


> Marines armed with Powerfists will not gain the +1 attack bonus for having two close-combat weapons unless the other weapon is also a powerfist. As most Marines do not have access to two powerfists (or the cost is just too restrictive), the Marine with powerfist will simply have to make do with the base 2 attacks +1 for charging and forget about the past +1 for two ccws.


thanks for the explantion but does that mean that if you only have one power weapon and bolt pistol you don't get the extra attack?


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> What's changed with the marine not having 3 attacks anymore?


models with a power fist and CCW no longer are gonna get the extra attack for 2 CCW UNLESS they have 2 power fists, like marneus clagar. and that goes for LC's, power fists, and thunder hammers.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

well seeing as no SM can have dual weapons bar l.claws it sounds a lot like a rule to make some characters better coughcalgarcough


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> well seeing as no SM can have dual weapons bar l.claws it sounds a lot like a rule to make some characters better coughcalgarcough


lol, yeah it would seem that way. plus with the new wound allocation rules in 5th the hidden fists are gonna be a little less effective as well.


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## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

well as for walkers in cc they were never more than a supporting cc unit in my eyes anyway

if you are going to take a walker in cc he should be drop podded and only assaulting units that are already tied up in cc with one of ur own anyway, or be used to tie up heavy weapon shooting squads which normally arent that big on number

keep the guns on em, stick em cover to have them benefit from the save to help make up for their weak armor values and continue the pwnage from afar by blasting tanks and such =)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bobafett012 said:


> walkers were always able to move and fire all weapons as they are considered stable weapons platforms, been that way since 3rd edition.


lol, I know that. Give me a bit of credit. 

My point was that no other vehicle (that isn't Fast) can do that. It means that things like Dreadnoughts (who are often overlooked right now because people consider them overpriced) will become all the more valuable.

Katie D


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> lol, I know that. Give me a bit of credit.
> 
> My point was that no other vehicle (that isn't Fast) can do that. It means that things like Dreadnoughts (who are often overlooked right now because people consider them overpriced) will become all the more valuable.
> 
> Katie D


but the problem is still their armor when compared to other tanks. the armor is 1-2 points lower and they are still about the same points costs if you give them much of anything. before i started playing in 5th i ran 3 dreads in every game in my DW army but now that i have switched over to 5th rules a few weeks back i run 2 LR's in their place and would not go back now. i tried 3 games with 5th rules with my 3 dreads and they were all killed by turn 3 in all 3 games. with my raiders in 6 games after that i have yet to even lose 1.
my point being dreads are nice as cheap mobile weapons platforms, assault cannons with missiles for 135 pts or maybe tl-las with missile for 155 pts, unfortunatly for 165 you can get a predator annhilator  and if you pod the dreads and/or make them venerable then you really start seeing an over priced unit.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

This mostly means a lot more Dreadnoughts and Defilers in SM and CSM armies. I can see Defilers replacing all tanks in a CSM army and just putting the Lascannon attachment onto the arm with the usual Reaper Autocannon on at least one Defiler. It may go that far, I might not try it until there is enough proof that it is worth it, but I bet some will try it out.


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

DarKKKKK said:


> This mostly means a lot more Dreadnoughts and Defilers in SM and CSM armies. I can see Defilers replacing all tanks in a CSM army and just putting the Lascannon attachment onto the arm with the usual Reaper Autocannon on at least one Defiler. It may go that far, I might not try it until there is enough proof that it is worth it, but I bet some will try it out.


i see the opposite of what your saying as tanks will be far more survivable than dreads and at or near the same cost.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bobafett012 said:


> but the problem is still their armor when compared to other tanks.


Yeah, I agree their armor leaves much to be desired but since they're Walkers they can easily take advantage of cover by simply standing in area terrain. That makes them significantly less vulnerable to enemy fire.


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, I agree their armor leaves much to be desired but since they're Walkers they can easily take advantage of cover by simply standing in area terrain. That makes them significantly less vulnerable to enemy fire.


but area terrain means alot less in 5th with TLOS rules. so even though he maybe standing dead center in a forest or ruins, if you can see more than 50% of the model from your models LoS then no cover saves  plus tanks of course can get cover saves as well by utilizing cover correctly too.

again not saying i don't like dreads, i just think if you keep them basic(although lose the DCCW as its completely useless) you don't feel so bad when they get poped, cuz they will and it will prolly be sooner than later


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

A Venerable Dreadnought in cover with fire support weapons will still be pretty tough to kill and if you can give them Tank Hunters as well then you're laughing (although the points cost isn't something to laugh about)

I don't think there's area terrain anymore in 5th... if you are partially obscured, you will get a cover save... I'm not even sure you have to be 50% covered.. just covered.

Running will help Furioso and Chaos Dreads the most... might even see some Chaos Dreadnoughts again in 40k. Nobody takes them now, other than for cheap laughs.


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

Thought Furiosos are and will be lot of fun to play, I second boba and others that are not sure of viability of dreads.
m'kay we can armour it, venerable it...But in the end, that will make a 200 points lascannon moving platform, that may sometimes do CC (yes it can run, but not being able to charge the turn it runs can ruin it all).

So, I really ignore if i'll prefer playing a dread to a predator annihilator


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## bobafett012 (Jun 14, 2008)

bishop5 said:


> A Venerable Dreadnought in cover with fire support weapons will still be pretty tough to kill and if you can give them Tank Hunters as well then you're laughing (although the points cost isn't something to laugh about)
> 
> I don't think there's area terrain anymore in 5th... if you are partially obscured, you will get a cover save... I'm not even sure you have to be 50% covered.. just covered.
> 
> Running will help Furioso and Chaos Dreads the most... might even see some Chaos Dreadnoughts again in 40k. Nobody takes them now, other than for cheap laughs.


ok lets go over a few things, there will be no more tank hunting dreads as soon as the new marine codex comes out and it is due out in sept, so thats the end of that.

there isn't area terrain anymore, its true line of sight, if you can look through a large piece of area terrain and see that dread from your models view you can shoot that dread. the only way the dread will be considered obscured and get the 4+ cover save is IF %50 or more of his entire model is not able to be seen(behind terrain, which i can see will cause plenty of problems in the near future)

as for chaos dreads, still worthless even with run, you chancing killing your own units with them and they still are about worthless in CC(in a tourny i rescently played in, a chaos dread i faced turned on turn 1 and blew up the defiler standing right next to him because it was night fight on the first turn and he couldn't see any of my units) the BA dread may start seeing some action, and not by running him either, he needs to be podded to even have a chance of getting into CC really and if you pod him AND upgrade him to death company dread(the only way hes worth a damn in CC) then you've got a 175 piece of bait. and if you put venerable too to make it more survivable......thats 200 pt, now your nearing LR territory and there is no comparison there.


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

chaos dread actualy aren't that bad, especialy in the new rules. i'm thinking about taking one or two with a land raider, giving them plasma cannon, and walking them up next to the raider that way if they go psycho then the raider can't get popped by their fire but i've still got scattering blast templates to give to space marines


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

There is a way around the chaos dreads shooting frenzy as well and you find it in the wording of the rule, it pivots on the spot, walkers only get a 180 degree pivot range, so keep your troops behind the dread :laugh:


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