# Firewarriors V guardsmen



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Whenever i play Tau i always find that guardsmen get ground into the dirt and spat on. They just don't stand much of a chance, it also means the space marines can laugh and say: "look at those puny guardsmen!" 

1) Longer range (there is no point to pulse carbines unless GW make them assault 2) and a squad markerlight (I always add a markerlight to my fire warriors squad)

2) Strength 5, the same as a heavy bolter. Against toughness 3 this results in a 2+ roll to wound with very little chance of NOT wounding.

3) AP 5 + 5+ save = no armour saves.

4) and When the guardsmen fire back with their rubbish strength 3 AP - lasguns they usually do badly.

But just to be sure I ran It through the combat calc, 10 fire warriors VS 10 guardsmen, no upgrades.
Fire warriors shooting Guardsmen: 4.167 dead
Guardsmen shooting fire warriors: 1.25 dead

any thoughts?


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> any thoughts?


Use a Chimera?


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Chimera/hellhounds/LR should do the trick, at least the other armour may distract the heavier-hitting models from the Tau while possibly getting a few good template blasts off against any dismounted fire warriors.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I just saw a game yesterday of Tau vs Mech IG. The imperial guard player got his face wrecked. Those multi-targeting rail guns just destroy chimera chassis. I would say your best bet is to stop using IG against tau


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## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> But just to be sure I ran It through the combat calc, 10 fire warriors VS 10 guardsmen, no upgrades.
> Fire warriors shooting Guardsmen: 4.167 dead
> Guardsmen shooting fire warriors: 1.25 dead
> 
> any thoughts?


Just remember that 10 fire warriors is 100 points while 10 guardsmen are only 50. 

This would mean that in a 'fair fight' it would be 10 fire warriors versus 20 guardsmen which would mean you have the following

Fire warriors shooting Guardsmen: 4.167 dead
Guardsmen shooting fire warriors: 2.5 dead

Obviously the guardsmen still lose but points cost is still something that you should count.


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## Trickstick (Mar 26, 2008)

wombat_tree said:


> Just remember that 10 fire warriors is 100 points while 10 guardsmen are only 50.
> 
> This would mean that in a 'fair fight' it would be 10 fire warriors versus 20 guardsmen which would mean you have the following
> 
> ...


Sorry but I don't understand how the guardsmen lose in this scenario, they have twice the numbers that the tau have but the tau are not doing twice as much damage, so the guardsmen will come out on top.

Realistically though, the Guard would be in cover and be getting orders. This will skew the results in the Guards favour. The Tau, on the other hand, get no benefit from cover against lasguns. Their best advantage is to sit out of range and try to draw them out of cover, then they win easily.


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## HatingYou (Oct 10, 2010)

charge the guardsmen into the FW

job done.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

HatingYou said:


> charge the guardsmen into the FW
> 
> job done.


this :goodpost:

If there's one thing FW can't do it's melee. Heck my grots beat them in a fistfight! (alright so they had some help from the runtherds...but my point still stands! :biggrin: )


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I know I myself am a Tau player, but I feel it's only fair to help if you're getting pounded over and over.

The problem with the obvious "CHARGE THEM" approach is that it applies to any force fighting them and Tau players always prepare for it. With OP forces like Space Marines, they still will be a major threat no matter what. With the IG though, melee is a much more unreliable tactic. The Tau player will invest in some Kroot to counter an IG assault- if that's the case, you'll want to rethink your approach. I've had 20 kroot grind down an impending charge of 50 guardsmen down to 40 than successfully kill them in melee over the course of several turns. It's really one of the few times they actually do any good.

What you need to properly thwomp a Tau player is template weaponry. Tau players flip shit on assault based units or anything that starts walking closer with a funny look. Ditch that in favor of just gunlining right back at them. Without the threat of impending melee, most Tau players just kick back with a gun line, forgetting they're just as allergic to bullets as any other force. So believe me when they get surprised if they start getting bombarded with template and scatter dice weaponry. 

Don't use tanks or manticores or anything like that, though. We go apeshit on tanks too and with things like broadsides, they never get to hang around long. Heavy Weapons squads are cheaper for what you get and provided you give them a respectful chunk of cover *and keep the Tau templates aimed somewhere else* you can slowly wear them down without spooking them until it's too late.


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## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

Trickstick said:


> Sorry but I don't understand how the guardsmen lose in this scenario, they have twice the numbers that the tau have but the tau are not doing twice as much damage, so the guardsmen will come out on top.


Actually you're quite correct, strange I made a post correcting someone on a fair fight for points and yet I forgot to take points into account for my conclusion.


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## misinformed (Mar 29, 2010)

wombat_tree said:


> Actually you're quite correct, strange I made a post correcting someone on a fair fight for points and yet I forgot to take points into account for my conclusion.


Couple points, you also are assuming only one round of shooting. The doubled number of shots would carry over benefit in subsequent rounds. Additionally, the real advantage is the lower cost on a required unit. As such, you could meet your minimum 2 troop choices and place those remaining points elsewhere while the tau must spend them on his troops.

So, redoing the calculator...

On the first round... Assuming they get the shots off first, they kill 5 of the 10 Fire Warriors. (assuming 2 shots at maximum range or 2 shots at half range).

The tau return fire... Assuming they get two shots from their rapid fire weapons, they kill 2.5 out of 20.

Imperial guard finish the tau off.

This was a mid-range version of Imperial Guard shooting first, just for a broad example. I used the Heresy Combat Calculator for this.

Now, lets assume the Tau shoot first, and that they start at their maximum range!

The tau fire... Maximum ranged with rapid fire... Killing 4.167 out of 20... Lets call that 5 because I am giving them their best chance.

Imperial guard is out of range, so they move up 6" then are still out of half range. The decide to run during their shooting phase and fail the Move, move, move! order. They only run an average roll of 3". The distance between them is now 21".

Tau fire again... They decide to move within their half distance and get two shots each with rapid fire... Killing 8.333 out of the remaining 15... Lets call that 8 because I rounded up last time and the sum of the remainder was still less than 1.

Imperial guard move up to within 12" and fail First rank! Second rank! (once again, because I am giving Tau the best chance). That gives the remaining 7 Guardsmen two shots each resulting in 1.75 out of the 10. Lets call that only 1.

The next round the tau back off just a bit to stay outside of assault range and fire twice each at half distance... Resulting in 7.5 wounds out of the remaining 7... 

*So, tau wins this biased in their favor one. With 9 remaining tau Fire Warriors out of the 10, or 90% of it's investment. In the first scenario, which was much more averaged, the imperial guard suffered 2.5 dead out of 20... I went ahead and rounded it to 3 dead, but that is still only 3/20 leaving 85% of the original troops. Once again, that's 85% of guard survive a realistic example, and 90% tau survive an unrealistic example that was unrealistically in their favor.* 

It all comes down to the sear number being used every round, not just the first.


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## Trickstick (Mar 26, 2008)

So Guardsmen die when they stupidly run at stuff with no regard to a battle plan or cover? Awesome. I think I will go and work out the results of berzerkers trying to out shoot thousand sons.


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## misinformed (Mar 29, 2010)

Trickstick said:


> So Guardsmen die when they stupidly run at stuff with no regard to a battle plan or cover? Awesome. I think I will go and work out the results of berzerkers trying to out shoot thousand sons.


lol, I was merely illustrating the point by having them do the stupidest thing I could think of. The point I was making was that even in that vastly stupid movement and with Imperial Guard failing every set of orders, the Tau still only kept 90% of their points versus the other example where IG fought realistically and kept about the same. Though the real point is that it all doesn't matter. Mainly, because in a real game, there are pinning checks from the various ordnance IG are throwing, the kroot jumping out and intercepting, etc.

I guess my approach did have the flaw that I didn't have a proper control group of them standing there and rolling average at the half distance and full distance of both weapons. Then I could change one factor of one weapon in sequence until we had a proper understanding of who win when any of the following applies: Distance varied, orders success varied, stationary, moving, behind cover, assaulting, etc. Though, that might be a long post... lol


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## Trickstick (Mar 26, 2008)

That would be a very long post indeed.

Sorry if I came off a bit confrontational, that was not my intention. Rereading my post it could seem that way though.


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## MASTER OF THE GODWING (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm a tau player and like to consider myself decent with them, but there is a guy at my store who has a great army for fighting tau. i have his ideas down to three major strong points. 1-chimeras and vendetas i had broadsides and hammerheads but no matter what the guard were in every vehicle and the unescapable fact is that theres just too many tanks to effectively kill with railguns. 2- lots of orders and templates if you could get the right template weapons and orders in there you could really wreak havoc on the tau FW or kroot. 3- hordes as good as it feels to mow down guardsmen with fire warriors they still outnumber you 2to1 if they get those tanks (refering to point 1) close enough and 1st rank 2nd rank fire goes offf from all those guard its just not pretty. my advice make the tau player feel like he is accomplishing something by throwing in a suicide squad then get him when he starts to get cocky.


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