# Just an observation on DA



## Deadshane (Dec 29, 2006)

It seems to me that the sheer amount of discussion/argument on the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of DA is VERY stimulating and will have an effect on the game. (as much of an effect that ONE codex can cause anyway)

....we havent seen this much disagreement on the effectiveness of codeii in a long time, I find it really interesting.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> ...we havent seen this much disagreement on the effectiveness of codeii in a long time, I find it really interesting.


Personally I think It's mainly down to the fear that every other codex will follow suit and get slapped with the nerf stick! :shock: 
:wink:


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

Its almost like they've decided Rogue Trader was a lot les power gamey and are making an effort to bring new armies in line with 40K's original design.

I think it'll just be a matter of time for people to warm to the new dex. The powerful combos are probably still there, just not as obvious to first readings.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

It's clear to me that the main problem is not with balance or power or things like that, since everyone against the change has argued it differently. The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet. All but a few of the "DA are useless now!!!!!!" posts boil down to this, inevitably wrapped in a slightly whiney complaint about Combat Squads. There's been next to no proper discussion over what's better and what's worse that hasn't been tainted by this egotism, so there hasn't been an informed consensus on precisely what happened to the power level of Dark Angels. In a few months, when the complainants have changed armies, the proper gamers have changed lists, and the results tested properly in high-level competition, I expect a proper and relatively correct consensus on the power level of the codex to form.

It is, after all, exactly what happened to Codex: Eldar, albeit replacing the words Combat Squad with No Craftworlds.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> In a few months, when the complainants have changed armies, the proper gamers have changed lists, and the results tested properly in high-level competition, I expect a proper and relatively correct consensus on the power level of the codex to form.


Everyone knows how SM's play and how their units perform within a competetive environment. With the new Eldar codex new stats and units were Introduced which made players look long and hard Into different combinations to make a succesful list rather than relying on the 'std' Seer council, SC, Wraithlord and Ranger spam. Looking at the new DA's all that has changed Is the Introduction of the combat squad doctrine along with a lot of un-justified price Increases, therefore It's fairly simple for an experienced SM player to see the overall picture,
Looking forward to these so-called competetive lists....
Good luck! :wink:


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

LongBeard said:


> Looking forward to these so-called competetive lists....


a cinic would say they've geared DA to be ravenwing at competative level.
just look at the battleforce for confirmation.

They sold the terminators now lets shift the bikes! :lol: 

I can't wait for the BA jump pack army that'll probably hit the shelves. :roll:


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I've talked to some of our group who have been DA players since 2nd ed and have been nothing but happy with the new dex. One of them won our latest tourney last weekend with them pretty easily.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

blkdymnd said:


> I've talked to some of our group who have been DA players since 2nd ed and have been nothing but happy with the new dex. One of them won our latest tourney last weekend with them pretty easily.


I've been waiting for these changes since the start of 2nd Ed. I've even gone so far as to order a whole new army. :lol: 

Now if we could just move away from vehicle damage tables again...

I've noticed the main complaint seems to be that gamers want the Dark Angels to be Vanilla marines in all respects. (so why not use vanilla marines???) :roll:

I'm glad they've made a difference between the forces as not as many people will be willing to try new methods. (Loss of termi heavy weapons and Tornado numbers being the main two.)

I'm just waiting for the other armies to be toned down to see how many gamers will claim DA are too powerful. :lol:


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

I like it, but as far as I can tell it is hit with the "nerfstick".

But we do get some crazy competitive bikes, combined with terminators they could prove quite good.

But if you don't want to play DA with Deathwing or Ravenwing you are better to rethink your decision. And this is what I fear; an army that is too static and only plays well in on formation.

So they aren't the most powerful army, big deal!
My belief is that this is "the things to come", so I don't expect BA or SW to be any better.

But I am a bit blown of that it looks like most DA armies will be geared the same way.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet. All but a few of the "DA are useless now!!!!!!" posts boil down to this, inevitably wrapped in a slightly whiney complaint about Combat Squads. There's been next to no proper discussion over what's better and what's worse that hasn't been tainted by this egotism, so there hasn't been an informed consensus on precisely what happened to the power level of Dark Angels.


Thats a pretty high horse you're on, sure you can breath up there? 

Its funny, but most of the posts I've seen decrying the new DA are based on the increased cost vs. Vanilla marines, the next-to-useless mandatory upgrades and wargear (is a 5-man lascannon squad likely to need frag and krak and a bolt pistol?) and the restrictions in choice that have been made. 
From what I've heard it pretty much pushes you in the direction of going Ravenwing/Deathwing to the exclusion of a lot of the rest if you want to make it competitive. If you like the old style of DA, you're at a disadvantage compared to normal marines purely on paying points for stuff you don't want or not getting anywhere near the advantages that codex marines can take.
I'm sure some competitive builds are in there and there are hidden depths, but the major complaints seem to be that instead of making them marines plus more options and styles, they made them Raven/Deathwing minus decent marines. 
I see what they tries to do, in making the DA have a different style, but there's no need to get rid of the option to use them as normal marines. Hell, the lack of access to traits would have been enough to make them worse in options but still feasible as good line troops.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

There's a difference between claiming that the new codex makes them weaker thus far in a calm and reasoned manner, albeit without any long-term gaming experience, and saying that they've been ruined and tournament players will flee from them in droves. The former is fine, since discussion is always welcome, but the latter does nothing to help anybody.

Since I don't actually have a DA codex, I haven't had the time to ake a long look at it, but it seems to me that if you want basic marines, you've got plenty of potential. Get ten man units, split them up into either a Las unit and a melta unit, or a fire support unit and an objective taking unit, or even a Heavy unit and an assault unit with a Veteran Fist. Use the heavy half to cover the light half as it takes an objective, then advance. The new infantry may not be as killy, but they have the cold, clinical objective completing skills that are so damn appropiate for their host army. Since hese guys aren't your main source of firepower, take Devastators, who are brutally good with this upgrade, to do the killing at range, and Veteran or Command Squads to kill things up close if you absolutely have to. Predator Destructors are cheaper, from what I hear, so take advantage of their excellent anti-infantry firepower. You also have the Mortis for any unfulfilled shooting desires.

This codex seems to run in a very different direction to its predeccesor, which is good. It seems to be a matter of changing from using min-maxed Troops as your main source of firepower to split squads as your objective achievers, and using the cornucopia of other options to do the heavy killing.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

I then suggest you take a long look at the codex and then you will see that some of the things we complain about are actually true 

I say that in theory and some what in practice what you proclaim is true.

But a big fact is that with the current rule set DA have a limited and often much more expensive way to get heavy weapon support.

And compared to vanilla marines we get fewer options for characters and vet sgts.
That makes the army less fun to play, as it will have a tendency to stay static as a list.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

OK i'm going to jump in here and add fuel to the fire.

I think DA have th epotential to be competative. Lets look at the evidence

Ravenwing bikes having the scout move. So they start in escalation and get a 12" move before the game. So can Charge first turn. Potentially Very good as bikes are pretty tough to dislodge for armies not geared for cc[guard/tau]. 

Ravenwing have Teleport homers and scout. 1/2 your Deathwing can DS on thefirst turn. Ravenwing scout 12" termies teleport within 6" therefore up to 18" on. Side armour shots first turn, or overwhelm one flank. The ravenwing first turn assault can then block most return fire at the Deathwing.

Preds and Razorbacks: Yes Lascannons are more expensive, but the other options are cheaper. This means you can take a fair amount of armour, albiet not the "optimal" builds, for very few points comparatively. More scoring units, give opp more target priority issues as they need to think if its even worth taking out as cheaper than normal. 
Rhino's: Rhino's Cheaper: Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee! although EA is a tad expensive Maybe Rhino mounted squads would be worth taking? Rapid fire bolters Can be very affective when used properly. 

Maybe they aren't as straight forward as standard marines or BA where you can throw in 3-6 lascannons and 3-6 assault cannons and know you can deal with pretty much anything


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

A marine army to have to think about to play omg! :shock: 
Heh, anyways i see a very large fast army meant for overwhelming quickly, from what ive seen you try to hunker down with DA, its just not their style, its almost like a semi horde marine army... maybe thats why people have their doubts?


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## spikydavid (Mar 11, 2007)

Personally, and I can't seem to say this enough times, I love the new DA codex. Yes, it makes a DA build of "standard" marines a bit substandard, but I don't care, I already have "standard" marines (my Mantis Warriors) which I use in a standard build. I don't want to rebuild them in a darker green.

Now, ignoring the *wing combinations (because there are ten companies in the Dark Angels, not two), what have you got?

Well, unfortunately, a lot of the nice high strength, armour-defeating stuff is more expensive, and more difficult to get hold of, so tank-busting and MC-defeating is always going to be trickier. However, the combat squads adds a welcome piece of flexibility to the list, rhinos are cheap, making a bolter-based squad a very viable unit. Add in the extraordinarily cheap predators (no upgrades), and you have at least the start of something. You are going to have to take (I think) some ravenwing speeders to deal with tanks/MCs, and you're going to have to box clever with those. I also, personally, really like the veterans. 2 attack marines for only five points more? Very nice.

The only thing I don't really like is I'm not too struck on any of the HQ selections. The new psychic powers are a bit naff (I don't like the variability of hellstorm, though force barrier can be very, very funny), I've got vet sgts everywhere so rites of battle is a bit useless, and I've never really liked chaplains much. Samael seems to have opinion divided down the middle, so maybe I'll give him a go (though without any ravenwing squads )


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Yeah HQ is a bit Meh. I think Samael has got potential, but its not nice to have to have a special character as your hq. A chaplain seems like the best choice IMO


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> Since I don't actually have a DA codex


Let me get this straight, we who have seen and read the DA Codex, have tried to make decent lists out of it....we're not allowed to come to the conclusion that they have been significantly nerfed (unless you trade in your Tacticals for Bikes £££$$$) in comparison to SM's.

Yet you who haven't even seen it can jump on the high horse and proclaim us all whingers and power gamers for speaking out.


...rich.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Now if you actually read the post instead of finding the most flimsy sentence that, taken out of contxt, could possibly justify you whining and thus somehow imply by connotation that I'm wrong, and the only person in the entire universe who disagrees with you, you might have actually known that what I said was that I do not own it, not that I have not read it in great detail. I have not at down with it and a calculator for a few hours, but that never stopped me from making powerful lists before. You specifically haven't displayed a single piece of evidence in favour of your overblown premise, nor anything that could possibly counter my own. Yet somehow, because I didn't pay money for a codex I wasn't going to read more than a few times, I am magically losing this argument.

Of course, there comes the issues created by you not actually reading a word I said. First off, you'll notice that, instead of calling everyone who said the Dark Angels had decreased in power whiny powergamers unjustifiably, much like you taking an impossible conclusion from an argument that should never produce it and using it to justify your own extrmeely tenuous position, I instead looked at the arguments in general, and found that while those who were capable of looking at the entire codex and drawing up all their options to determine power in all aspects, that a huge number of people simply become affixed to the fact that they cannot use the most efficient layout from another codex, and are affronted that they actually have to change their lists. These people have become quite visible, since they are completely unable to make any concessions that there may just be a playable unit in the list, and will never use anything to support it but the lack of sixPlasLas.

Since the only reason this observation should offend you is if you are one of them, perhaps you should create an argument that is valid, well-structured, and incorporates the whole codex into it and use that to justify your outrageous claims, insteads of simply screaming NO SIXPLAZLAZ ZOMG DA CODEX IS FUXXORED. Since you haven't done the latter yet, I can only hope your intention is the former.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Kinda have to agree with uber, true i havent looked at the codex more then twice, but alot of this stuff is listening to the arguements and taking it into context, its no reason to jump all over him, or just repeat the same thing, give evidence like how you've used DA and how its fallen short, anything can look great or crappy on paper, but thats just paper, back up with how you've actually preformed, and not just one time you've done horrible or amazing, a few times, since the game is based on dice and can be random, but because of strategy and the human componets as well as the codex component there is a trend somewhere, so back it up with something of that sort
and NOTE! i am not saying anyone is wrong or right based on the arguement i am only making a statement that sitting around saying things are useless or underpowered is pointless, hell there could be a ballanced way to run the army thats how its suppost to run or works well that no one has tried yet because of power lists and see'ing DA flaws in the ability for the standard power lists, think out of the box
Of course this is all my opinion and ideas so take it or leave it :lol: w/e you choose


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> Since I don't actually have a DA codex, I haven't had the time to ake a long look at it,





> you might have actually known that what I said was that I do not own it, not that I have not read it in great detail. I have not at down with it and a calculator for a few hours, but that never stopped me from making powerful lists before.


So you haven't had time to take a long look at it, but you have read it in great detail despite not actually having sat down and tried to write a good list with it. :roll: 
This obviously makes you valid to criticise the arguments of others who have actually done this, despite you not having given any detailed concrete arguments to support your position. 

So regardless of the self contradiction, your entire argument that DA are peachy is based on reading others arguments, making wild assumptions about their personalities and wilfully ignoring the detailed arguments that have been put across, such as points and style comparisons in order to attack these mythical DA powergamers. 

How about you write a post that actually details tactics, unit comparison/uses and overall army building tips rather than just posting "Hurr! Powergamers can't figure it out, (but, er, neither can I yet as I haven't detailed why its so good) thats why its great!" Then you might actually look like you have a tenable position to argue from.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

My argument this entire time has been that none of the claims that the Dark Angels army is rendered unplayable by [Combat Squads/Having to change my intertactics/NOSIXPLAZLAZBULLSHAT (pick one)]. That the codex _looks_ fine to me has just been a point for the less fanatical posters. It doesn't take a massive reading session to invalidate a stupid claim, and that's all I've been doing. Anything else you thought you read is paranoia

Also, a massive reading sessions is not the only reading session. Spending an hour or so three times with the codex is more than enough to be competent enough to dismiss bullshitty claims.

I don't give a flying fuck what you think about the codex, so long as your own opinion is based on something other than ZOMFG NO FUCKING SIXPLAZLAZ MY INTERNET TACTICS ARE RUINED GW HAS RUIONED THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO OTHER UNITS IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING CODEX AND THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO WAY TO USE THE NEW RULES TO MAKE A UNIT THAT IS PLAYABLE I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL MYSELF.

If i had said a single fucking thing about any argument other than the above, you may just have a minute shard of a point.

I haven't submitted any real tactics of my own simply because I don't particularly feel the need to, since the players more used to the Dark Anels playstyle will do a more in-character job. However, because I haven't written a fifty page strategy guide doesn't mean that I can't dismiss the morornic claims of a bunch of morons too uncreative to come up with a tactic of their own. These people probably haven't even _read_ the fucking codex in some cases, convinced as they are that it is worthless, so having looked at it and considered the options I probably am more qualified than them, but that's uncertain, and as such I never used it as a premise, despite your heroically singleminded insistence that it is.

Long story short, if it wasn't moronic bullshit about the lack of sixplaslas squads, then I wasn't talking about it. Since your entire argument is based on the premise that I was dismissing real opinions and real arguments, backed up with real evidence and real playtime, it doesn't apply.

Are we done here? Can we get back to discussing whatever positives and negatives actually exist within the codex yet?


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## Too_hot_to_handle (Jan 4, 2007)

but your forgetting one thing Uber. NO 6 MAN LAS/PLAS


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> It certainly won't. There will always be people whose need to win is so overwhelming that no sacrifice is too little. They're just getting cranky now because they have to change tactics.





> The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet.





> These people probably haven't even read the fucking codex in some cases, convinced as they are that it is worthless,


So, thats what you've argued. Mostly trolling against anyone who has a different opinion than you. Nothing about las/plas being mentioned, just unsupported assumptions, personal attacks and, wait, nothing of substance to back up your claims other than "I say it is, so it is."



> I don't give a flying fuck what you think about the codex, so long as your own opinion is based on something other than ZOMFG NO FUCKING SIXPLAZLAZ MY INTERNET TACTICS ARE RUINED GW HAS RUIONED THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO OTHER UNITS IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING CODEX AND THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO WAY TO USE THE NEW RULES TO MAKE A UNIT THAT IS PLAYABLE I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL MYSELF.
> 
> If i had said a single fucking thing about any argument other than the above, you may just have a minute shard of a point.


OK, show me a couple of arguments listed on this forum that bang on about 6-man las/plas as the be all and end all and thats why DA are rubbish and you might actually have a shard of a point. Can you?

Just a disclaimer: I don't actually care about DA, but I am bothered by mindless trolling, hence my posts in this thread.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

And I for one am getting tired of the both of you sniping at each other. This is a discussion about the DA codex and its pros/cons and NOT about each other validity in expressing opinions. You both have your opinions and are both entitled to them and expressing said opinions in this thread is a fine thing. Drop the personal arguement and get back on topic which is the validity of the codex, NOT which of you is more entitled to his opinion. Sorry if this seemed heavy handed but I have no desire to see a good thread turn into a battle of wits. Warning has been served.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Fair enough, in deference to the mods I'll refrain from posting in this thread unless it concerns specific DA stuff.


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## TheEmperor'sChampion (Jan 24, 2007)

to be honest, i dont care if you cant min max. im just disappointed with some of the changes. combat squads are cool, but did they really have to make it so you can only buy them in 5 or 10 man squads? why not just give the bonus if you take 10? im not a fan of mandatory frag and krak grenades either. the increase in price for the dread and annihilator are kind of dumb. that was basically to sell more minis, they take the common units, de power them, and make it so you have to buy new ones. they do it all the time. its not always about balance its about sales. the drop of cost for the rhino and increase for drop pod was really about balance, not sales. i like the ravenwing squads and termi squads. im not happy with the HQs. i also still have serious problems with the layout of the new dexs. as long as the rest of the codices arent like this, ill be happy. im just worried about things to come. the old DA were a joke. they were vanilla marines that got bonuses, i mean intractable wasnt that big of a penalty, and they were the only ones who got plasma cannons in tac squads. they had the wings, but otherwise they werent all that unique. so its good they are different now, but are they too different?

basically im not happy, i really wish gw would stop taking baths in money and start caring about the game. i mean ending the CA articles and FAQs was dumb. honestly a lot of the space marine traits were just ideas thought up in CA. it was great to have new optional rules, army lists, and frequent FAQs.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

> but did they really have to make it so you can only buy them in 5 or 10 man squads? why not just give the bonus if you take 10


Well yeah, im sure it was intentional to stop minmaxing. Otherwise people would just stick with there standard 5/6 man Las/plas squads


> im not a fan of mandatory frag and krak grenades either.


Why would you be against it? its free and with the bolt pistol it makes the squads more versatile. It fits with the marines fluff.


> the increase in price for the dread and annihilator are kind of dumb


Hows it dumb to increase the points cost of underpriced units?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree with Jig about the grenades. Hell I would love it if my Chaos marines came with those as to me that is just something all marines should have, fluffwise. Hell, look at our modern day fighting forces and you won't see many of them going without a flashbang or grenade of some kind. Like Jig said, it fits the fluff and to me that is a good thing. Too many rules in this game don't fit the fluff or even come close to it and that kinda sucks.

What were the average costs of the dread and pred before compared to now? Can't comment at all on the price change before knowing that.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Have to disagree about Dreadnoughts being undercosted- they're awful. Too slow, too lightly armoured, too big a priority target to survive.

For even more cost....I'll pass.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> Have to disagree about Dreadnoughts being undercosted- they're awful. Too slow, too lightly armoured, too big a priority target to survive.
> 
> For even more cost....I'll pass.


Have to agree with Jeridian on that one, you could always add an overcosted pod Into the deal!


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Dreadnaughts are not too bad or too good.
They are just good against certain armies.

Tau, forget about them. Tyranids, take them any day.

It’s all about what you face. Strength 10 weapons make a mockery of a dread any day, at least in a fire fight.

The problem as I see it with the DA version is the higher cost for Lascannon.
This makes the dread a one trick pony, as many other things in the DA list.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

However Jeridans opinion i'm guessing is playing ukgt style games where escalation is in affect 50% of the time. Therefore the assault cannon is then not the ultimate weapon it usually is. However if you look at the standard dred for marines, you get a weapon that is a better tank hunter than a lascannon and one of the best anti-infantry weapons in the game. Also it costs the same as 6 marines with a lascannon. But can move and shoot, has a str10 powerweapon and a reasonable AV. Sure the Pred gives out more firepower overall plus is more survivable, but the fact dreds take up an elite slot deserves honourable mention. I'm sure most who have been to the UKGT have seen the armoured lists that consist of 3 preds 3 dreds 3 landspeeders and 2/3 razorbacks. Powerful list.

If dreds are crap why are they a high target priority? For its points what else gives you such a versatile move and fire heavy weapon?

Overcosted Pod? I'm guessing thats a joke? As it stand with Vanilla 30pts is laughable for what is argueabley one of the best transports in the game.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

As a Chaos player, I would take a 30pt Drop Pod any day of the week! Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway


Agreed. They're generally something to go for when the pred's can't see you and the speeders have been shaken for a turn as you've got a damn good chance of killing it with most AT weapons. Otherwise pretty much ignore it. Vens are harder mind.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

anathema said:


> > Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway
> 
> 
> Agreed. They're generally something to go for when the pred's can't see you and the speeders have been shaken for a turn as you've got a damn good chance of killing it with most AT weapons. Otherwise pretty much ignore it. Vens are harder mind.


There are just too many things in the game that can take them down now.
I think walkers would have been much more desirable in the game if they'd allowed them cover saves rather than obscured rule. 

a sort of halfway stage between vehicle and MC.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

Maybe I'm missing something (which wouldn't be the first time).

I'm building a DA army, and I don't have a single Lascannon in it. The loss of the old 96'er (6 man las/plas) just didn't enter into the equation.

I can field very cheap Predators, lots of meltas/multi meltas/melta bombs. I can also find ways to get side shots with Plasma all the while having 14 scoring units.

Then, thanks to the no ally type rule not being present, I can take a cheapo Inquisitor with Emperor's Tarot to help increase my chances of getting first turn. This would allow me to get the 1st turn shooting/assault on troops, and more importantly vehicles who haven't moved yet (Mech players worst nightmares).

For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives. 

To be fair, however, I'm still very much in the air how I'd deal with a true horde army. I rarely face them, but when I do, I don't think I've got enough in the army to handle it.

I haven't built a Marine army since 1st edition. This codex finally got my interest piqued enough to do so.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Sarigar said:


> For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives.


Agreed. This is why Tau are able to do as well as they do simply because they can be so mobile it can be downright scary sometimes.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives.


Agreed absolutely. Mobility and firepower are the buzz words of 4th Ed- if you have one and not the other your in for trouble.

Wandering off on a side tangent here but many of us that disliked the DA Codex never mentioned 6xman las/plas (this was brought by pro-DA Codex players as a strawman argument for them to argue against).

Frankly it is just as easy to create a highly mobile firepower SM army- cheaper Tornados, cheaper Predators, cheaper plasmaguns, Fury, Terminator Command Squads, cheaper drop pods, cheaper Fists, etc.

The only way to make the DA Codex worth taking over SM's is to deliberately choose not to take much plasma, or assault cannons, or fists, or Tornados, or lascannons, etc.

Which leaves- cheap transports, autocannon Predators.

Like this for example:



> I can field very cheap Predators, lots of meltas/multi meltas/melta bombs. I can also find ways to get side shots with Plasma all the while having 14 scoring units.


From a purely competitive view your telling me it's a good thing that you have to navigate into the side arc of vehicles with lower strength weapons rather than hit the front with lascannons.
(From a gaming view it may be a good thing as it makes it more challenging for you, but that's not the tournament/balance stance).



> Then, thanks to the no ally type rule not being present, I can take a cheapo Inquisitor with Emperor's Tarot to help increase my chances of getting first turn. This would allow me to get the 1st turn shooting/assault on troops, and more importantly vehicles who haven't moved yet (Mech players worst nightmares).


This is true, the Scouting Bikers is one of the DA's few new tricks. Coupled with 1st Turn Termies it may be useful- but if one tiny thing doesn't go your way (terrain, deployment, first turn, etc) your screwed. And it is a one-trick pony- you either win turn 1 or you don't.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

From a competitive sense, it depends (straddling the fence, I know). Locally, we play with a fair amount of terrain, so it is not unheard of to be able to hide multiple vehicles from 1st turn shooting. Additionally, my Ravenwing units will be placed after my opponent's heavy armor (typically), so I will be able to get a decent lane of attack.

Having said that, if you play with slightly less terrain where you can draw LOS to vehicles 1st turn, I'll concede that the trusty lascannon is a good way to go. 

The army appears it will be fragile. This is something I'm really looking into. It seems better to take 2 landspeeders instead of single units as you need to kill both to get VP's and non scoring status (or immobilize both). Another option was lots of 3 man Ravenwing bike squadrons. I can still take the cheapish Attack Bike, but lose the expensive Land Speeder (doesn't seem like a big loss to me)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking at the Dark Angels to be the next Iron Warrior tourney army-it simply isn't. But, I definitely see potential as a competitive army against many of the armies out there.

Plus, I'm anxiously awaiting my new Dark Angels Dreadnought from FW as it just looks freakin' sweet (yeah, I'm not a total power-gamer) :wink:


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

My DA list has two units of:

3xBikes- 2xMeltas. 1xAttack Bike- Multi-melta.

GW has gone out of their way to dick the usual SM suspects (6xman las/plas, Tornados, assault cannons in general).

So rather than try to mimic a SM list (by trying to cram Tornados in, 10xman las/plas) and failing miserably we might as well try something else.

The sad truth is though, that multi-meltas, autocannons, bikes, Rhinos etc aren't taken in SM armies for a good reason, and this still applies (though less) to DA.


Basically I don't want and never said DA should be IW's equivalent.
But they should at least be SM equivalent- they are not.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Ok so i agree in part with Jeridian and anathema to a point. But i still feel that the DA book promotes a bit more character. Now there is no point moanind about whether or not combat squads are a good thing or a bad thing. Thats how marine armies are supposed to work. One of my mates is livid that DA's got that rule coz he has Ultra baw bags and he has to use up 4 slots to do a similar thing (which he does) and he's done this for years and has got the tactics pretty good.

DA's also have other trick's. Ok so its expencive but nobody appears to have mentioned that a DA vet squad (that don't have to use the combat squard rule) can have up to 4 hidden powerfists! Drop pod them in and rip apart half somebodies army!

I think it will just take time to see what comes of them. Perhaps they are not the hardest army, but as i've said before. If GW made them the new IW's then everybody would be up in arms, but GW has toned them down a bit so everybody is up in arms! You can please everybody all of the time! (unless your name is jenna jameison) lol

MarzM :mrgreen:


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> Ok so i agree in part with Jeridian and anathema to a point. But i still feel that the DA book promotes a bit more character. Now there is no point moanind about whether or not combat squads are a good thing or a bad thing. Thats how marine armies are supposed to work. One of my mates is livid that DA's got that rule coz he has Ultra baw bags and he has to use up 4 slots to do a similar thing (which he does) and he's done this for years and has got the tactics pretty good.


If he admires the Codex Astartes set-up as much as it seems, he should use the DA Codex. Seriously, aside from the Deathwing (which can represent a 1st Vet Company) and the Ravenwing (which can represent a 7th Battle Co) all the changes in the DA Codex are Ultramarines Codex Astartes through and through.

It just happens that the DA where the next on the Codex list when they decided to bring it back.



> DA's also have other trick's. Ok so its expencive but nobody appears to have mentioned that a DA vet squad (that don't have to use the combat squard rule) can have up to 4 hidden powerfists! Drop pod them in and rip apart half somebodies army!


Or watch as that unit fires a few pistol shots on landing. Then the entire enemy army moves just out of 12" and/or kills said 8 Marines.
I think a more nasty combo is plasmaguns, 3xcombi-plasma, 1xfist.

4-rapid fire plasma's on landing (attributed to Fallen Angel).



> I think it will just take time to see what comes of them. Perhaps they are not the hardest army, but as i've said before. If GW made them the new IW's then everybody would be up in arms, but GW has toned them down a bit so everybody is up in arms! You can please everybody all of the time! (unless your name is jenna jameison) lol


The level I'd like seen attained for armies is that of Eldar, Tau and balanced Marines. 
So some lists like IW's and BA will have to be weakened, whilst many other lists like Orks, Sisters, IG will have to be boosted.

The DA Codex is an anomaly because there isn't an Eldar Codex and a 'Eldar variant worse than Eldar'.
Theres isn't an IG Codex and a 'IG variant worse than IG'.

They will always be compared to SM's, as do BA (but in the opposite extreme)- and they come up short in all the areas that matter.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

But, if people are comparing it to the SM Codex and it doesn't measure up, then those people can play the SM Codex. The Dark Angels offer a different play method with a Marine army. This is what actually got me interested.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> But, if people are comparing it to the SM Codex and it doesn't measure up, then those people can play the SM Codex. The Dark Angels offer a different play method with a Marine army. This is what actually got me interested.


Agreed that there is more to a Codex than it's level of competitiveness. The DA style is very appealing to me because it follows the Codex Astartes as rigidly as 90% of SM Chapters are supposed to.

But competitiveness is important, especially since tournaments now play a huge role in 40k wargaming.

And from a purely competitive standpoint- DA are far weaker than SM's, that some people claim they are equal or even more powerful is woefully naive- or just plain ignorant when certain people haven't even read the DA Codex.

The competitiveness of the army will greatly affect a lot of people's decision to collect them- this in turn may affect GW sales negatively.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I dunno, been spending a bit of time with the new DA codex and it doesn't strike me as all that bad. Time will tell but I think there is some excellent potential here.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

I bought the DA Codex and now building a DA army. I haven't built a Marine army since 1st edition. Then again, I'm not soley a tourney player either (hell, I've not won an Overall in nearly 2 years...)


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

I played my DA against Tau this saturday. And I got whipped!

Three things come to mind.

1. Big problem getting Las cannons in to the list without dedicating presicus points you need to spend on marines.

2. Terminators and the Deathwing assault rocks. But they are far too few and vourneble if you just buy 5 plus HQ. You need two units to make a big difference.
Also theier biggest advantage is the "mind game", your opponenet will most likely set up and try to defende against the coming strike.

3. Bikes aren't as though as you might think. In a Tau army most weapon are S5 or more and many weapon have a AP of 3 of better.
Lost my whole bike squad against the ugly Stingwings (sidenote: Why did Tau get another jumppack troop with a S5 AP3 weapon? It just isn't fair. Just as good as Assault marines and cheeper.)
So maybe the Termies just have to take a chance, when teleporting in...

So if I just played a bit smarter (dont sacrifice the bikes on opponents turn one), had a bit more luck in some of the shooting and not as much bad luck on some of my saves. I would have won.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

I found some help with the losing 1st turn. Dark Angels can ally now, so a cheapo Inquisitor (Elite slot) with the Emperor's Tarot can help get you the first turn. Not a guarantee, but some added help.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

"3. Bikes aren't as though as you might think. In a Tau army most weapon are S5 or more and many weapon have a AP of 3 of better. 
Lost my whole bike squad against the ugly Stingwings (sidenote: Why did Tau get another jumppack troop with a S5 AP3 weapon? It just isn't fair. Just as good as Assault marines and cheeper.) "

You do realise that these are vespid.... :shock: Vespid, suck really hard. BS3, T3, 5+s 12" range vespid. 

Although bikes are maybe one of the very, very few things they are good against. But, still, Vespid..........


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Dude, Vespid suck.
Those Vespid must have gotten lucky, or the player was using irregular dice.


:lol: 
:roll: 
:twisted:

As far as the DA go, I like what they did with them. They look cool, and they are more fluffy (albeit some folks say they are noodled). I dunno. My two bits says It's cool and balanced.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

I wonder if vespid will be used more once the other SM chapters follow suit?

Locally, I don't think i've even seen a vespid on the Table yet.

Stomp, If you were facing a DA force, would you consider Vespid? or is it still a case of leaving them alone in favour of you normal tau?


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Hey, Vespids don't suck compared to Tau or Kroot.
Same BS and a S5 AP3 weapon.
They have I5 so they hit before SM and at same rate as Eldar.

The cost is less than an Assault marine, so what does the "suckiness" compose of?

They are s big problem for any marine player as a hit equals a dead marine, most of the time. For example will they most of the time kill all marines in a 5-men squad.
10 shoots = 5 hits =3- 4 wounds and the same amount of dead marines.
Assault 20 attacks = 10 hits = 3-4 wounds = 1 wound
This gives one or none marine to strike back.

But they will die horribly to bolter fire so they are best to sneak up and assault.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

"Stomp, If you were facing a DA force, would you consider Vespid? or is it still a case of leaving them alone in favour of you normal tau?"

Hell no! Bikes die just fine to burst cannons, pulse rifles, plasma rifles and missile pods. The main difference is those suits/ FWs will still be alive the following turn to go hurt something else.

Vespids do suck. I'd much rather have the equivelant points worth of Kroot, as they always perform, not just once in a blue moon, or against someone who doesn't know what they're doing against Tau.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

But DA bikes have the potential to charge on the first turn, That is something that is usually reserved for Chaos, and is something that Tau can find Difficult to deal with.


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

Seems to me that the only drawback to the army as a whole are the squad sizes, either 5 or 10.... and if you notice a termie squad is only 5 guys, no bigger. Lots of cool ways to configure the army, buttloads of special characters (is there another chapter with more?), they almost seem like uber marines. Im not gonna play em tho.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Well I also played a game recently, and I have to say I was impressed with the list and the codex, 1500pts and I got 5 lascannons in there, so I don't see whay people moan about how they can't have many (unless you mean cheesey lists with about 50+ in them hehe), a few things I noticed:

1: Librarians are Hard as nails, Hellfire was tremendous, his Daemonhunters were quite afraid of it (especially when it was a STR7 AP3 shot that killed most of his stormtroopers) his force weapon also managed to break a few models out in a sweat.

2: a 5 man devvie squad with a couple of lascannons is actually rather more effective than I thought, managed to tie an Assassin in combat for about 3 turns, meaning I had plenty of time to deal with other threats

3: Terminators were not that good, but it was mainly due to poor dice rolls (first time assault cannon fires 3 1's and a 6, second time 3 2's and a 4, not good)

4: 10 man tactical squads were a godsend, they took everything that was thrown at them and dished it out in equal measure, bolt pistols were a very nice little addition, and I used them more than I thought I would

5: Mortis dreads are nasty, very effective, better than those stupid Las/missile combos, and in combat it killed 3 terminators on its own hehe

BUT he had a Grey Knight Grand Master, and we all know what there like hehe, they do not die, but I was happy, all these people who say the new dex is no good are idiots really.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> 5: Mortis dreads are nasty, very effective, better than those stupid Las/missile combos, and in combat it killed 3 terminators on its own hehe


But isn't the Mortis dread an FW addition? even daemonhunter =I= can be good with FW stuff added.

What is the list like when used on its own?


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

jigplums said:


> But DA bikes have the potential to charge on the first turn, That is something that is usually reserved for Chaos, and is something that Tau can find Difficult to deal with.


It's really not you know. I've been stopping first turn charging chaos lords etc for some time now. Skimmers don't fear combat and auxillery troops are there to take care of these things.

Really the only thing they should be able to charge are Kroot in cover. If a 3man bike squad charges 10 Kroot in cover they are dead. The Kroot swing first/ at the same time with 20 WS4 S4 attacks. If a 6 man squad charges Kroot in cover they'll lose 2-3 bikes, break the Kroot because they are only T3 with no sv and Ld 7, leaving them sat out in front of the entire Tau army ready to suck down Plasma/ pulse fire.

70pts for however much the bikes cost. Not a good return of points really. As a Tau player i'd actually fear the player who shows patience, uses cover well to sneak up and arranges his army to all strike at the same/ a similar time. Tau don't like multiple fast moving threats but being given the fastest unit they have on a plate nice and early is ideal.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> BUT he had a Grey Knight Grand Master, and we all know what there like hehe, they do not die, but I was happy, all these people who say the new dex is no good are idiots really.


To be fair daemonhunters aren't exactly the stiffest opposition you're likely to face, so I wouldn't consider your win as definitive proof. Have you used them vs. tougher armies yet? I'm still not hearing many bat-reps so far, so I'm interested to know how they do against the full spectrum of lists.

As regards the bikes vs. Tau, my first thought was also "Kroot screen!", closely followed by "skimmer wall". Bunched up kroot with a decent distance between them and the suits will cause problems to DA bikers. 

Has anyone tried the flamer Whirlwinds yet? They look fantastic against anything not in power armour. Kroot, Pathfinders, Guard etc. will all die horrible flaming deaths vs. them. I'd be rather worried if I saw one or two of them set up.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

anathema said:


> Has anyone tried the flamer Whirlwinds yet? They look fantastic against anything not in power armour. Kroot, Pathfinders, Guard etc. will all die horrible flaming deaths vs. them. I'd be rather worried if I saw one or two of them set up.


Its a nice anti ork tank as well now. completely ignores the Mek's shield.


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

The Skimmer wall would be a benefit against DA's. I've found with the number of melta weapons, cheap Inquisitor w/ Emperor's Tarot, you want first turn and the ability to hit skimmers before they move. 

DA's seem really geared to go after Skimmer Mech lists.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

I think if i was to do DA i'd defo go with a flamer whirlwind.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

in GT do you have to specify the missile type on the army list?

I think I prefer the Firewind variant too. As most targets who would make use of cover would be generally low T low save troops.

its just a shame, DA can't lay minefields


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

blessed knight said:


> Stella Cadente said:
> 
> 
> > 5: Mortis dreads are nasty, very effective, better than those stupid Las/missile combos, and in combat it killed 3 terminators on its own hehe
> ...


Come off it, a mortis is NOT game winner, 2 twin-linked lascannons and 180pts is not a uber killer of death machine



anathema said:


> To be fair daemonhunters aren't exactly the stiffest opposition you're likely to face, so I wouldn't consider your win as definitive proof. Have you used them vs. tougher armies yet? I'm still not hearing many bat-reps so far, so I'm interested to know how they do against the full spectrum of lists.


Umm I said I lost??


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## Dala'Karn (Mar 29, 2007)

The only problem I have with the codex is the layout; they've changed it twice now! the first four codex’s (SM, Tyranids, BT and Tau) were all the same layout which was background, army list, colour pages, but the Eldar was set up the Fantasy book style (background, army list with rules, army list short listed and colour pages) and then make the dark angel codex different again (background, army list with rules and categorised units, colour pages and army list short listed). It makes it all so confusing, I noticed this since I have them all (only using marine, Nid and Tau :wink: )


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

No blessed knight. You do not have to state which ammo type you are using at GT. You just have to inform your opponent at the start of the game as to which one your going to use. Same as you do not have to deside whether your Death Company have jump packs or are in a rhino as long as you have both models and have bought the jump pack for the chaplain!

MarzM :mrgreen:


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> Come off it, a mortis is NOT game winner, 2 twin-linked lascannons and 180pts is not a uber killer of death machine


I know it isn't.
You were saying how good the new list was, then listed something not on the list as one of its good points.

_Thats_ what i was querying.



MarzM said:


> No blessed knight. You do not have to state which ammo type you are using at GT. You just have to inform your opponent at the start of the game as to which one your going to use. Same as you do not have to deside whether your Death Company have jump packs or are in a rhino as long as you have both models and have bought the jump pack for the chaplain!
> 
> MarzM :mrgreen:


Cheers MarzM. That means Belial will be pretty handy too.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> Umm I said I lost??


Umm, you didn't say either way? I only assumed you won because you were talking up the DA units so much. 

I'm retaining an open mind until I see a few winning battle reports from DA armies and how they did it. Once I've seen the imaginative uses and killer combos that players come up then I'll be prepared to accept that they're not as bad as people say. However hearing some more of their restrictions from a marine player at the weekend then kudos is indeed due to those who make a winning army from them.


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## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

i hate the way codicies are going, i like armouries and optional unit size :x , there is one thing i like though is that special characters are hq's now


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

all the wargear a unit can take is listed in their entry, which if anything makes the codex easier to use. 

a full armory is un necessary really with the new line of codexes coming out.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I like the theory behind all the options being in the lists, but i would have liked them to have kept more variety, especially on options like captains. otherwise all captains etc kind of lose there personality, and we start seeing lots of the same sorts of captains etc again and again


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