# Blissgiver: Viable in 6e?



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

An AP2 weapon that gives + D6 attacks and Instant Deaths any monstrous creature or challenge opponent without Eternal Warrior (at I5)? Sure, it's still 40 points and still can backfire with a 1 on +attacks, but this guy would slaughter nearly most special characters, HQ and monstrous creatures in the in the game.

Even a standard unmarked Daemon Weapon is looking more attractive these days--it's essentially a Power Axe that gives you + D6 attacks for an extra 25 points...and isn't Unwieldy.

Bloodfeeder is just as NONONONO for me as ever, as a roughly 1/3 chance to be unable to attack is unpalatable to me.

The Plaguebringer and Deathscreamer are the least affected by this change I suppose, though the Plaguebringer's somewhat similar in role to an unmarked Daemon Weapon, merely less effective vs vehicles and same-touchness units, while more effective vs T6 or higher (so...not nearly as good).


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Moved to 40K tactics.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> An AP2 weapon that gives + D6 attacks and Instant Deaths any monstrous creature or challenge opponent without Eternal Warrior (at I5)? Sure, it's still 40 points and still can backfire with a 1 on +attacks, but this guy would slaughter nearly most special characters, HQ and monstrous creatures in the in the game.
> 
> Even a standard unmarked Daemon Weapon is looking more attractive these days--it's essentially a Power Axe that gives you + D6 attacks for an extra 25 points...and isn't Unwieldy.
> 
> ...


The biggest thing here is whether you get wounded with the weapons effect on a 1, in which case Blissgiver can be dangerous to use.

I don't play Chaos so I can't say I'm too familiar with these weapons.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Bloodfeeder is insanity if you don't roll a 1, but its unreliable.

Blissgiver isnt bad, AP2 I5 instagibbing is pretty good, but S4 sucks

Plaguebringer is still the best with re-rolls to wound and poison 4+, it means you can take down scary things

The tzeentch one licks balls


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

All of them have got better in 6th being AP2 and not unwieldy so they are all on par with warscythes I think. The khorne one is terrible I think, because you can fairly easily kill yourself. The Tzeentch one is good if you have a shooting army but I an make do with a twin-linked bolter. Slaanesh is amazing you hit first against marines and you ID most things, which a lot of the time can get you Slay the Warlord, it would also be good against MC nids. The Nurgle one would make you a bitch to fight, with 4+ poisoned and T5, then if you have epidimius it could potentially become 2+ poisoned


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Plaguebringer's somewhat similar in role to an unmarked Daemon Weapon, merely less effective vs vehicles and same-touchness units, while more effective vs T6 or higher


Actually, since the Plaguebringer re-rolls wounds against T4- targets (a 75% chance instead of a 66.6% chance) it's better at killing T4 units, the same at T5, and better at T6+.

Midnight


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

To be fair you only take a maximum of 1 wound per turn with the Bloodfeeder and the potential for a lethal 17, AP2 attacks at WS6 is a worthy 140pts IMO. Don't improve you're khorne lord, use him like a lone wolf. 

Throw him into CC and rack up an impressive tally for the blood god. When you put him on the field, you know that at least 140pts of blood will be spilled, one way or the other...


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## Madden (Jan 22, 2012)

I Agree with hogglord about the khorn bloodfeeder, also give him a jugger and you get an extra attack and +1 s send him at any infantry unit and watch him blend. Back on topic I love my blissgiver sure you could roll a one but the chance to off large amounts of paladins/ nid warriors/ ork nobs plus the occasional MC to me is worth the risk. I run him with 4-5 termies with a mix of weapons and walk them (strange I know but it works for me) they take a lot of punishment and still wreck things.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I use similar tactics and they work out pretty well. People always underestimate footslogging units in my experience.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Fair enough, I forgot about the rerolls for poison, now.

Ah well, it's only like we have another few weeks or so until the codex drops and all of this is invalid... probably. Hopefully.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I did the math-hammer on this ages ago (I couldn't seem to find the actual post), but basically the Plaguebringer shits all over the other DWs. The other DWs can outperform the Plaguebringer in certain situations, but when you add in the extra toughness from MoN and shooting attacks the Plaguebringer is by far the best option.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

mcmuffin said:


> Bloodfeeder is insanity if you don't roll a 1, but its unreliable.
> Agreed
> 
> Blissgiver isnt bad, AP2 I5 instagibbing is pretty good, but S4 sucks
> ...


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Man, do I miss these old daemon weapons. AP2 at init for any alignment, not just khorne? Those were the days. Sure, it was only, like, 20 odd days, but they were good days. Heck, my Dark Vengeance lord would give his left arm for the old undivided daemon sword even at AP3. That the so-called murder sword (a power sword that pays 20 extra points for... a cool name) is the best the new codex can do to try and represent his fancy sword is just ... disappointing.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Malisteen said:


> Man, do I miss these old daemon weapons. AP2 at init for any alignment, not just khorne? Those were the days. Sure, it was only, like, 20 odd days, but they were good days. Heck, my Dark Vengeance lord would give his left arm for the old undivided daemon sword even at AP3. That the so-called murder sword (a power sword that pays 20 extra points for... a cool name) is the best the new codex can do to try and represent his fancy sword is just ... disappointing.


If I'm not mistaken, the Murder Sword still has D6 attacks, as with every other Daemon weapon. Not to mention that it wrecks characters in challenges.


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

I wish! Then it would be awesome! Or at least, you know, _good_. But sadly no, you are mistaken. The murder sword is not, in fact, a daemon weapon. Or, in any event, it does not have the 'daemon weapon' special rule.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

There are some weapon options though with the demon weapon special rule, I don't have the code to hand but I swear I saw two of them, personally I think the murder sword is pointless, it would just make you strive to kill that unit when if you didn't have that distraction you may end up going for another unit which would more tactically advantagous, becasue you don't know how things are going to be on turn 3 or 4, heck even the start of turn 2 sometimes


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Not counting gear on special characters, there are exactly two daemon weapons in the new chaos marine codex. One is the blinding axe - which is great, but restricted to models with the mark of khorne only. For the entire rest of chaos there is but a single daemon weapon, a mace with AP4. The mace isn't terrible, but due to its low AP it isn't particularly good, either, and it's very expensive, and it's a _mace_, not a sword, leaving the poor dark vengeance lord with his awesome looking sword to go sob in a corner.

Only two daemon weapons, one of which is locked behind a particular mark. No generally accessible AP2-at-initiative weapon for chaos, the faction of supposed melee badasses and terrifying challengers. Hahaha. Ha. Ha. ::cries::


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Malisteen said:


> Only two daemon weapons, one of which is locked behind a particular mark. No generally accessible AP2-at-initiative weapon for chaos, the faction of supposed melee badasses and terrifying challengers. Hahaha. Ha. Ha. ::cries::


That's kind of a good point actually. For such apparent melee monsters, our units aren't particularly strong therein. Lookin at you Berzerkers.

But you shouldn't let the marks prevent you from builiding the army you want. Rather than thinking of the Mark of Khorne dedicating your army or Lord to Khorne, just think of it as purchasing Rage for your Lord. You could still say he's dedicated to Nurgle in the fluff but you felt that Rage fit his personality better than Toughness. Then you could give him the Axe of Blind Fury...which also gives Rage for some reason.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

It gives Rage for DPs, which don't get it otherwise.

Also don't forget that you need that marked Lord to unlock the elites into troops of his particular god. Which kills the "just call it rage" thought process if you're running DG.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> It gives Rage for DPs, which don't get it otherwise.
> 
> Also don't forget that you need that marked Lord to unlock the elites into troops of his particular god. Which kills the "just call it rage" thought process if you're running DG.


Not if you bring a Nurgle Lord too. Or you could bring Typhus. He has an AP2 Daemon Weapon.

Point being, there are ways to get around some of the cult related restrictions in the codex if you think outside the box a little.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Well, considering it doesn't exist anymore, I'd say no.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

My facial expression resembles your avatar.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> My facial expression resembles your avatar.


Ah, yes. Renee Zellweger's extreme sour lemon candy.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Personally I don't think that the chaos codex has lived up to expectations in some of the new rules, don't get me wrong I thinks it's brilliant but I for one was certainly expecting deamon weapons to stay, and maybe some conjuration powers too. But what I think is the most potentially annoying thing is that if say you pay for your lord to have terminator armour and give him the mace and a mark of some form etc. then you get to a challenge that you win and then boom you are a demon prince, you have lost your terminator armour and probably worth much less points. Now granted that probably isn't going to happen very often but with someone like abbadon, he is much better than a demon prince.


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

It is laughable that for most tooled up lords & sorcerers, 'elevation' to a daemon prince is something your opponent will cheer, and you will cry about. You lose all of your gear and options - even gear and options like psychic powers or chaos artifacts that a daemon prince would have been allowed to take, and get booted clear out of combat to get shot to death by the enemy army, and that's assuming you can even find a place to deploy that 60mm daemon prince base within 3" of a lord already engaged in melee while remaining at least an inch away from enemy models.

Having your warlord go daemon should be a moment of ultimate badassery, the kind of awesome moment that should have you laughing like a maniac in the middle of the game store, but on the field of battle it more typically feels like a punishment, little better than spawndom. If anything, having your warlord go prince should be _more awesome_, than having some random champion do the same, not less. And it would have been simple for that to happen - just let the new prince keep anything from the old model that a prince would still be able to take - gifts, artefacts, psychic powers, etc, _and for khorne's sake let the model remain engaged in combat if it already was_. I've had dark apotheosis happen exactly once, and the champion just died because there was nowhere within 3" that I could place that giant base without overlapping a friendly model or landing within 1" of an enemy.


Not that princes on their own can't be badass. Instant death can ruin their day now, sure, and they cost an arm and a leg, so I'm somewhat skeptical of them 'taking the meta by storm', but in a casual game a winged prince with the black mace is an absolute monstrosity that can comfortably eat entire units whole, and that's just awesome. Just a shame that my warlord turning into a prince isn't nearly that badass.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Malisteen said:


> and the champion just died because there was nowhere within 3" that I could place that giant base without overlapping a friendly model or landing within 1" of an enemy.


This. There aren't many circumstances where your lord will have the space to place a 60mm base 1' away from the enemy in CC. Poor design.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> This. There aren't many circumstances where your lord will have the space to place a 60mm base 1' away from the enemy in CC. Poor design.


Looks like I'm keeping my metal DP on a 40mm base, then.


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Should be fine for casual games, but I'm not sure that will fly in tournaments anymore, as the daemon prince base size is officially 60mm. Even the old metal daemon prince, re-released in finecast, comes with the 60 now. Most places are fine with allowing larger base sizes, but using a smaller base size is generally considered 'modeling for advantage', even if it was the base size the model came with at the time.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Malisteen said:


> Should be fine for casual games, but I'm not sure that will fly in tournaments anymore, as the daemon prince base size is officially 60mm. Even the old metal daemon prince, re-released in finecast, comes with the 60 now. Most places are fine with allowing larger base sizes, but using a smaller base size is generally considered 'modeling for advantage', even if it was the base size the model came with at the time.


What was Phil Kelly thinking when he wrote this steaming pile of crap (I'm exaggerating, of course; most of the book is pretty badass)? o.o Dark Apotheosis, if NOTHING ELSE, needs to be re-written, or should have just been excluded altogether; In my experience, Phil Kelly's codexes are pretty awesome. Space Wolves, Dark Eldar; and then we get this. What the fuck, Mr. Kelly?!


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Adramalech said:


> What the fuck, Mr. Kelly?!


I have no idea what the intention was, but looking at it from the player's end, it feels like he just didn't care. Like, you know that feeling you get with some books that the codex author was just totally stoked to be working on the project, like they're excited about the faction and its character and its lore and its possibilities on the tabletop? I _get_ that feeling from Kelly's Space Wolves and Dark Eldar. Much as I don't like his fluff, I get that feeling from Ward's Grey Knights and Necrons too, even if the necrons he was so excited about don't bare a lot of resemblance to the necrons I was familiar with.

This book just doesn't have that feeling. It's just a half hearted, half baked sprucing up of the book that came before. I like some of the new fluff, but the rules? The rules feel like they came from someone just looking for a paycheck before washing their hands of it.

I wouldn't be surprised in a year or three to hear in an interview that Kelly didn't really want this project in the first place, or wanted to do something completely different and was told 'no' so he just hammered out this meh book to be done with it.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah I reckon in an FAQ it will be errated so that you just need to place it in combat, or within 3" if unengaged. And I reckon you should be able to keep your mark mastery level and CC weapons too. And that with demon princes, you can choose to not change. After all the play testing they do you would have thought that there GAMES TESTERS PAID FOR BY GW!!! would at least be able to pick up on these things. This is why I reckon they should do a wider selection of testers rather than Grand tournament players or developers.


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