# How well do Space Marines get along?



## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

I have been wondering for a long time if various chapters get along with each other. Especially the ones with their own codex books. Would Space Wolves get along with Blood Angels and even arrange missions together? Or are they mortal enemies. Furthermore are the Grey Knights part of the Space Marines, or even the Sisters of Battle?


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

Grey knights are the best of the space marines they are a class all there own. Sisters of battle are unagumented humans so they are insignificant mites compared to the might of the space marines.

Some chapters might get along with some and not well with others. The space wolves for example hate the dark angles with a burning passion even going to war with them some times. I would assume that most chapters are capable of getting along if it is for the greater good of the imperium but i would think that they would keep to themselves outside special gatherings of say all those chapters descended from dorn.

It all depends on how much there creed differs from each other. The ultramarines could barely stand being near the flesh tears because of how different they were even though they were both from the origanl ultramarines legion. I hope that helps


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Not to mention if any Chapter has help from the Grey Knights in battle, they have to be mind-wiped so the Grey Knights stay a secret. Only a few Chapters are allowed to know of the Grey Knights and not get mind-wiped. Silver Skulls and Exorcists. Maybe more, but those are the two that are named as giving recruits to the GKs.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

That does immensely help. But then does that mean that space wolves and dark angels are fighting under completely different beliefs too? Aren't they all for the emperor? 


btw. hooray for spell check built into fire fox lol


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

Its the way they go about fighting. Their culture and traditions are completly different. The flesh tears are either cannibles or entomb their warriors in open tombs along a hallway i can't rember either way the ultramarines are freaked out by them. That and they ignore the codex.

They are all for the emperor but the dark angles and space wolves's fight stretches back to a fight between their primarchs lion el jonson and Russ. Those two got into a pysichal fight and their sons are still fighting over it.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Pathfinder201 said:


> Its the way they go about fighting. Their culture and traditions are completly different. The flesh tears are either cannibles or entomb their warriors in open tombs along a hallway i can't rember either way the ultramarines are freaked out by them. That and they ignore the codex.


You're thinking of the Mortifactors, not the Flesh Tearers.



Pathfinder201 said:


> The space wolves for example hate the dark angles with a burning passion even going to war with them some times. I would assume that most chapters are capable of getting along if it is for the greater good of the imperium but i would think that they would keep to themselves outside special gatherings of say all those chapters descended from dorn.
> 
> It all depends on how much there creed differs from each other. The ultramarines could barely stand being near the flesh tears because of how different they were even though they were both from the origanl ultramarines legion. I hope that helps



Negative on the SW/DA rivalry. Russ and the Lion worked things out later during the Great Crusade, and it's more of a rivalry between the two Chapters. They have a honor duel between the Chapters as more of a nod to their Fathers than anything.

And pretty much everyone doesn't get along with the Flesh Tearers. Their tendency to attack their allies doesn't sit well with their allies. And Flesh Tears are Blood Angel descendents, not Ultramarines.


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh okay then why did the space wolves get into a large fight with the dark angels in the 5th book of the ragnar seiries just wondering not trying to be mean though i phrased it like it could be interpreted that way


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

Could be something like that Attack on the National Guard by the Marines and there was just a lack of communication?


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh no there was no lack of comunication they clearly identified themselves and ended up almost destroying each other in space and a war of ground units they could clearly see who they were fighting. IT was a very intense moment. They almost got wiped out by the 1000 sons but they were able to get along for about 5 seconds to fight back.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

Wow I would like to read that book. What one is it?


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

You have to read the series its a great series. Its the space wolf series about ragnar blackmane it is truely an epic work of art


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

He asked which book it is, he knows it's the space wolf series. 

On topic- One of the main things that seem to determine in chapters get along is their ancestry. Successor chapters for the most part seem to get along well with their parent legion and the other successors, particularly the second founding chapters. The Imperial fists and their successors have the feast of blades celebration where they renew ties of friendship, oaths of loyalty and have friendly competitions. The Blood Angel's successor chapters came together to help their parent chapter in Red Fury. 

There are exceptions of course, the Ultramarines can't stand the Mortificators because of their divergent beliefs and doctrine. The Iron Hands don't get along with their successor chapters or any other, they're very insular. 

It's going to differ on a chapter by chapter basis, their history, culture, relations with other chapters and Imperial institutions. Chapters that have crusaded for a long campaign together are likely to remember one another and their shared achievements the next time they meet for example.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

Awesome Ill check it out. I need some good reads.


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

from all the fluff that i have read, like Rems said. it all depends on the cultural influences and rituals.
SW-BA range as far back to the crusades and their primarchs (despite what the hearsay novels say later on) and that rivalry still continues on whither its bc of lost knowledge or plan stubborness

from what i remember of the Iron Hands, they choose to be apart of other chapters because of their beliefs that perfection is within the machine and undergo bionics like no tomorrow, each member has given up their left hand for an implant. and strive for the ultimate goal of being entombed withing a dreadnaught, and thus have the closest relationship to the Adeptus Mechanicus then any other chapter. (or so the fluff from their 1 novel states) ( i seriously believe they need their own codex bc of that book... think blood angels can field dreadnaughts like no tomorrow? imagine what iron hands could do, i wouldnt be surprised if they could be a troop choice  )

some of the new chapters i cant speak for since i haven't read their novels.
but for arguments sake, most chapters( individual company's to be exact) if involved in a joint crusade will get along, even become battle brothers and trade equipment, parts of armor and heraldry to commemorate the battles fought side by side ( most info given by GW source books)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Space Wolves and Dark Angels...kill each other?
that seems rather heretical, surely that happens very rarely


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Pathfinder201 said:


> Oh okay then why did the space wolves get into a large fight with the dark angels in the 5th book of the ragnar seiries just wondering not trying to be mean though i phrased it like it could be interpreted that way


From the SW codex, "It is claimed that the Primarchs, [Russ and the Lion], eventually became accustomed to these personal battles, and growing to respect each other and becoming great friends."

Later on it goes to say, "Though they (the Dark Angels and Space Wolves) have fought together since, the ancient rivalry remains. So it is that every time the two Chapters meet, a champion from each Chapter is called upon to refight the ancient duel between the two Primarchs in order that honour and tradition be satisfied." 

According to the Space Wolf series the SWs don't trust the DAs for some reason lost to time (that we conveniently know). 

For the exact quote, "Ten thousand years later the Sons of Russ still bore this old grudge from those events and although they were not cosidered outright enemies, the Dark Angels were not to be trusted."

I looked up why the DAs attacked the SWs and that's because the DAs were hunting a Fallen. I think nothing short of a Primarch would stay the hand of a Dark Angel hunting a Fallen, and even then the DA would be sorely tempted.


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks for clearing that up hailene, i havent read the whole series and i think i stopped at book three, not quiet sure. but now you said that it rings a clear bell now! i knew i was forgetting something very important lol


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Don't get the Ultramarines or their successors started on the Minotaurs, either. Things like publicly insulting Marneus Calgar and brutalizing an Ultras successor tend to rub them the wrong way...although, the Minotaurs are said to be douchebags anyway.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

While we're on the subject of Papa Smurf, he sent out invites for a pool party in Tau space and pretty much everyone and their mom went.

Calgar and the Ultramarines are pretty much on top of the social pyramid.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Not to mention if any Chapter has help from the Grey Knights in battle, they have to be mind-wiped so the Grey Knights stay a secret. Only a few Chapters are allowed to know of the Grey Knights and not get mind-wiped. Silver Skulls and Exorcists. Maybe more, but those are the two that are named as giving recruits to the GKs.


Okay, that's just not true. Space Marines are a law unto themselves and an elite army to boot. Not a single one of them is going to be okay with having it's members mind wiped. Further, pretty much all the chapters are aware of the GK as they know to call for them when shit gets wierd. Also, look at the First War of Armaggeddon numerous Space Marines fought directly alongside members of the GK and not a single one of them was mind wiped, nor was this even suggested. And looking at how far they were willing to go after that war I think it's safe to say that it will not have happened since.

To make this post back on topic, I'll agree with what the others have said. Marines generally get along pretty well with others of their gene-seed. Arguments do occasionally crop up regarding tactics and such (treatment of human civilians seems to be a prime spot for disagreement). The rivalry between the DA and SW is ancient and likely the result of misremembering events in their past and has occasionally (as in, once) boiled over into outright conflict, however that scenario was very carefully manipulated by the Thousand Sons.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> Not to mention if any Chapter has help from the Grey Knights in battle, they have to be mind-wiped so the Grey Knights stay a secret. Only a few Chapters are allowed to know of the Grey Knights and not get mind-wiped. Silver Skulls and Exorcists. Maybe more, but those are the two that are named as giving recruits to the GKs.


This whole mind wiping remark doesn't sit well with me either, I'd like a source if possible.

I can understand a guard regiment or a populance getting a good old flashy thing done to them (MIB ref ), but to wipe centuries of battle experience from a chapter of space marines! Doesn't add up.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Durant said:


> This whole mind wiping remark doesn't sit well with me either, I'd like a source if possible.
> 
> I can understand a guard regiment or a populance getting a good old flashy thing done to them (MIB ref ), but to wipe centuries of battle experience from a chapter of space marines! Doesn't add up.


Aye, they certainly don't get mind-wiped. Can't remember if it's one of the Wolf Lords or the Great Wolf himself who stopped short of war with the inquisition/ecclescakey because of the way the IG, civvies and PDF's on Armageddon were treated. When he heard they were getting mind-wiped/executed he went apeshit.

Aye, I think generally marines get along, but there's always exceptions. Flesh Tearers being the best one mentioned yet, the SW have fought them before because they went nuts and started butchering their allies!:biggrin:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Durant said:


> This whole mind wiping remark doesn't sit well with me either, I'd like a source if possible.
> 
> I can understand a guard regiment or a populance getting a good old flashy thing done to them (MIB ref ), but to wipe centuries of battle experience from a chapter of space marines! Doesn't add up.


page 16 of the grey knights codex, blood angels who were present had there minds wiped and it was sanctioned by Dante himself


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> From the SW codex, "It is claimed that the Primarchs, [Russ and the Lion], eventually became accustomed to these personal battles, and growing to respect each other and becoming great friends."
> 
> Later on it goes to say, "Though they (the Dark Angels and Space Wolves) have fought together since, the ancient rivalry remains. So it is that every time the two Chapters meet, a champion from each Chapter is called upon to refight the ancient duel between the two Primarchs in order that honour and tradition be satisfied."
> 
> ...


wow this is really good knowlege to haveon hand. It would make for some fun role playing


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> page 16 of the grey knights codex, blood angels who were present had there minds wiped and it was sanctioned by Dante himself


Wait, what?!?

For those of us that don't have the codex, could you please provide a little more info on the event in question?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Wait, what?!?
> 
> For those of us that don't have the codex, could you please provide a little more info on the event in question?


There's actually several examples of Space Marines getting mind-wiped after fighting daemons in the GK codex.

Pretty bull-shit to me, since SMs fight daemons often enough. Though it's pitched as the GKs only show up when shit _really_ hits the fan; hits the fan so hard that normal SMs couldn't handle it.

I still think it's stupid.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

The ass mind wipe is more or less to cover up the fact that there is a chapter called "Grey Knights" out there...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Doelago said:


> The ass mind wipe is more or less to cover up the fact that there is a chapter called "Grey Knights" out there...


So then what do the Marines wind up thinking happened? 

And did they retcon this as having happened on Armaggeddon? As in, pretty much the biggest daemon $hit storm in 'recent' history. Cause I figure Logan and the Wolves would be pretty p'oed about something like that happening. And if they didn't do it there, doesn't that defeat the purpose as there were like a half dozen chapters involved in that?

And finally. How exactly do GK become aware of situation where they are needed? Under the old fluff I just assumed that somebody in the area would realize that stuff's goin down so they call in the big guns. But if Space Marines aren't even allowed to know they exist, then presumably lesser mortals (which would include most Inq members) wouldn't. So who calls them? Or do they just... know. 

For some reason this brought the ghostbusters song into my head. "Who yah gonna call?" "I dunno, if only there was some kind of organization that dealt with this kind of thing. What, there is? Why didn't anybody tell me! That woulda been really useful to know two days ago!"

All in all, this is actually some of the oddest new fluff to come out of that book, and that's really saying something.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> So then what do the Marines wind up thinking happened?
> 
> And did they retcon this as having happened on Armaggeddon? As in, pretty much the biggest daemon storm in 'recent' history. Cause I figure Logan and the Wolves would be pretty p'oed about something like that happening. And if they didn't do it there, doesn't that defeat the purpose as there were like a half dozen chapters involved in that?
> 
> ...


I don't think it's there to prevent them from knowing about the existence of the GKs. It's to shield them from the horrors of the warp they face, and its potential corrupting influence.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

So wait wait. is this mind wipe thing all psyche? or is it surjury. how do they pull it off without people knowing?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

SynthNine said:


> So wait wait. is this mind wipe thing all psyche? or is it surjury. how do they pull it off without people knowing?


It's a pretty thorough, time, and labor intensive activity. Most of the time the Inquisition just kills the survivors.

SM are too important to kill outright, so that's why they mindwipe.

And it's not like in MiB where they put on some glasses and flash a light and you forget everything. Dante (?) and his men had to submit themselves to be mindwiped.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

As cool as the question of inter-Chapter relations (sounds dirty tee hee hee) and mind wiping is.

I always like to see how *individual* Space Marines get along, do they like their squadmates, commanding officers etc.

Its suprising how petty SM's are at times and suffer from slights and hurt feelings.Which is even worse amongt Primarch's lol.


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## Takizuchi (Aug 27, 2010)

Im sure that the Salamanders would just love to knock a few Marines Malevolent heads around for how they like to treat civies. Hell im sure if they went renagade that the Salamanders would be the first to happily hunt them down. XD


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

Are the salamanders pretty honerable then?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

SynthNine said:


> Are the salamanders pretty honerable then?


Honor is in the eye of the beholder, really. One could say that the marines Malevolent were honorable towards the Emperor and the wider Imperium by shelling the Orks within the civilian encampment on Armageddon. 

Salamanders are definitely philanthropists. They're willing to sacrifice themselves in order to save civilians.

As a First Founding Chapter they've had plot armor so far that's made everything work out. Never have they rescued people and have had things completely blow up in their faces.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't think it's there to prevent them from knowing about the existence of the GKs. It's to shield them from the horrors of the warp they face, and its potential corrupting influence.


I was responding to _Doelago_'s suggestion that that was why they were being wiped. However your idea just raises more questions. 
1) Marines are pretty tough, mentally, and deal with the warp on a fairly regular basis. Even if a certain situation is beyond the scope of their normal activities I would prefer to think the surviving marines would treat it as a learning experience, rather than wiping out the action.
2) The warp in no way requires consious awareness to corrupt an individual and mind wiping is not an exact science. It's quite possible therefore for a mind wiped marine to be corrupted.
3) This still doesn't explain what the marines think happened. Do they return to the Chapter and be like "Um yeah, there was some kind of battle but I don't recall exactly what went down." and everybody else is okay with that?

And as you say :


hailene said:


> It's a pretty thorough, time, and labor intensive activity.


Which begs the question, why bother? Is the risk of a marine being corrupted by remembering a direct conflict with daemons so much higher than if he's mind wiped? I personnally would doubt it. Plus I would think that under most circumstances marines would be too proud to submit to mind wiping, and the GK would generally lack the ability to force it upon them. 



D-A-C said:


> I always like to see how *individual* Space Marines get along, do they like their squadmates, commanding officers etc.
> 
> Its suprising how petty SM's are at times and suffer from slights and hurt feelings.Which is even worse amongt Primarch's lol.


Marines are often portrayed as being very human in their psychology. Which is not all that surprising given that they used to be human. The problem is that they are recruited at a very young age, generally from traumatic backgrounds. This leads to all kinds of unresolved emotional issues and underdeveloped social abilities. In many ways Space Marines (particularly those of the HH era, when there seems to have been less rigorous brainwashing) are children, at least emotionally. When outside of their area of expertices (combat) they are irritable and aggressive, because they're supersoldiers with the emotional growth of a twelve year old.

That being said, marines are almost always shown as being able to work together quite well. Look at First Claw in the Night Lords series. Generally, they don't get along very well, they have very different outlooks on life and one of them is a raging nutter; but when shit hits the fan they work together extremely well. To me this is the hallmark of a marines psychology. They were built to be soldiers, to be a team and to work together. This training overrides every single other psychological issue they might have (for the most part at least). Marines in combat seem to be fairly different to marines at peace (training, whatever).


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> page 16 of the grey knights codex, blood angels who were present had there minds wiped and it was sanctioned by Dante himself


Ye gads! How very disappointing! See, Dante signed it off, probably to stop the GK asking questions about why they sparkle in sunlight...


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

This mind wipe thing is pretty poor thought out fluff!

SM fight chaos all the time, beat down daemons and stop the Necrons/Nids from consuming worlds and are left "un skull fucked" after each battle. (whos existance if I recall were always kept a secret from civilian population, unless thats changed)

So why now, that a new SM uber army appear on the scene do they have to get mind wiped. And why wasnt this done after armageddon?

Piss poor.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Lets Face it, if its for the good of the Imperium/ then they will work together. I like MEQinc on how First Claw is used. I feel its the same way. When life and death are involved, everyone is on a team. But we all have to acknowledge that when it comes to a chapters secrets they are all not very cooperative. The DA won't ask the SW to hunt a Fallen. Likewise the SW won't go ask their DA counter parts to hunt down Wulfen. And to top it off no one wants to get between a Ultramarine and his codex.

Then again Salamanders do get put in situations where civilians are screwed. Like when they had to reset the air in the dome. Lots of civilians died but it needed to be done. Kadai gave the order and shit got real. Oh well, I'm not a big fan of branding myself either, but I guess to a salamander some things need to be done.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Durant said:


> This mind wipe thing is pretty poor thought out fluff!
> 
> SM fight chaos all the time, beat down daemons and stop the Necrons/Nids from consuming worlds and are left "un skull fucked" after each battle. (whos existance if I recall were always kept a secret from civilian population, unless thats changed)
> 
> ...


they are not wiping the minds of the marines who fought chaos , they wipe the marines because they came into contact with *GREY KNIGHTS* they dont exist , they are like the SAS of the marine world, its fluff to add to the mystery of the chapter, marines have a reputation for been totally bad ass and the best mankind produce, so how do you make something better than bad ass? you make them super secret squirrel ,so secret that not even other astartes can know about them, imagine it from there point of veiw, you are trained and fight hundreds of years against everything the universe can throw at you and you have access to all the war gear the mechanicum can possibly produce.... then some silver armour wearing bastard walks in and nuts the deamon you have been fighting for the last hour and doesnt even break a sweat.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

From that description of the Salamanders they would be full of honor. They sound pretty good. But i am still thinking of the movie when they meet nedos and the chaplain and they hesitate to help them because they are imperial fists


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> they are not wiping the minds of the marines who fought chaos , they wipe the marines because they came into contact with *GREY KNIGHTS* they dont exist , they are like the SAS of the marine world, its fluff to add to the mystery of the chapter, marines have a reputation for been totally bad ass and the best mankind produce, so how do you make something better than bad ass? you make them super secret squirrel ,so secret that not even other astartes can know about them, imagine it from there point of veiw, you are trained and fight hundreds of years against everything the universe can throw at you and you have access to all the war gear the mechanicum can possibly produce.... then some silver armour wearing bastard walks in and nuts the deamon you have been fighting for the last hour and doesnt even break a sweat.


I don't believe that's true. Mind-wiping of imperial troops by the Inquistion (including marines), that have been in contact with Chaos has existed in the fluff since Rogue Trader days (it isn't new fluff, despite some people believing so). In such background, it has had nothing to do with the presence of Grey Knights and has been due to dangers of contact with chaos and the warp.
In terms of the Armageddon fluff, the Space Wolves are quite well known for their distrust of imperial authority figures such as the Inquistion. It's unlikely Logan Grimnar would have allowed the mind-wiping of his troops in the first place, let alone after the treatment of the surviving imperial forces.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> they are not wiping the minds of the marines who fought chaos , they wipe the marines because they came into contact with *GREY KNIGHTS* they dont exist ,


Okay. So I'll ask again. What do the Marines end up thinking happened?

And also, again, how in gods name are the GK pulling this off? Marines aren't going to be okay with having this knowledge wiped, the GK lack the ability to force them to have it wiped, the Chapter is going to get really suspicious and eventually somebodies gonna just shoot the grey-armoured fucks.

Also, lots of people no about the SAS. Not sure what you were trying to get at there.



Scotty80 said:


> I don't believe that's true. Mind-wiping of imperial troops by the Inquistion (including marines), that have been in contact with Chaos has existed in the fluff since Rogue Trader days (it isn't new fluff, despite some people believing so).


No ones said anything about that not happening. We are referring solely to Marines. No fluff, aside from the new GK stuff, has ever even hinted that marines get mind wiped.



> In terms of the Armageddon fluff, the Space Wolves are quite well known for their distrust of imperial authority figures such as the Inquistion. It's unlikely Logan Grimnar would have allowed the mind-wiping of his troops in the first place, let alone after the treatment of the surviving imperial forces.


This is *exactly* my point. Marines will not allow a mind wipe and the Inquisition/GK lacks the ability to force them. How then are mind wipes pulled off with the regularity that keeping an entire military wing secret would require?


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

I thought the animosity between the SW & DA went back to the HH because effectivally the entire DA legion was sat out of the battle waiting for the outcome before declaring their alliegance....


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

the_barwn said:


> I thought the animosity between the SW & DA went back to the HH because effectivally the entire DA legion was sat out of the battle waiting for the outcome before declaring their alliegance....


That's not the case (both in the fued origin and the actions of the DA). The DA were very involved during the HH, just not on Terra. _Savage Weapons_ shows at least part of what they were up to. Secondly the DA and the SW wound up fighting together towards the end of the Heresy, as they joined up to fight towards Terra. The two Primarchs are beleived to have argued, IIRC Russ kept wanting to stop and help people but the Lion wanted to rush home (I might have that backward), but that's generally held to be somewhat seperate from their duel. The duel itself was the result of the Lion manipulating/misusing the Wolves and then 'stealing' Russ' kill (IIRC). After the duel the two appear to have been able to work things out.

In the very long time since these actions, it seems both Chapters have misremember the stories and thus created a far bigger rivalry then there ever was initially. And really, isn't that pretty much always the case with rivalries?


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## Scotty80 (May 26, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> No ones said anything about that not happening. We are referring solely to Marines. No fluff, aside from the new GK stuff, has ever even hinted that marines get mind wiped.


I'm pretty sure Marines being mind-wiped has been mentioned in the fluff before the new GK codex. I'll have a look and see what I can find tonight. Only one I can vaguely remember off the top of my head is in Space Marine by Ian Watson, where the Imperial Fist commanders are determining whether they should mind-wipe the memory of chaos exposure from the main Imperial Fist characters (in the end after tests they decide the exposure hasn't affected them enough for it to be needed).


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

SynthNine said:


> From that description of the Salamanders they would be full of honor. They sound pretty good. But i am still thinking of the movie when they meet nedos and the chaplain and they hesitate to help them because they are imperial fists


I think the hesitation comes from them being on a planet with a company of slaughtered Fists and after fighting a Daemon off they find 2 Fists. You gotta admit it sounds a bit suspicious.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

the_barwn said:


> I thought the animosity between the SW & DA went back to the HH because effectivally the entire DA legion was sat out of the battle waiting for the outcome before declaring their alliegance....


I'm not a huge DA guy, but the sitting out is still up in the air. It's just a thought that creates doubt. The fact that Luther allied himself with Daemons and chaos might have been what held the Lion back. but like I said not a huge DA guy, just spoke to one and I guess this is one of the great mysteries. More of a what if than truth...

Keep in mind it the 'what if' did come from a Fallen..


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Okay. So I'll ask again. What do the Marines end up thinking happened?


well i would assume that if there mind were wiped of the events then they will have big gaping holes for memories, but who cares they live to serve the emperor so you would just have to tell them it was done in his name and bish bash bosh off they toddle happy in the knowledge what ever happened to them needed to happen for the emperor.

Anyway i was just pointing out that in the Grey knights codex, the general gist is they are super secret and the wiping of minds is done to protect that secrecy, after all chaos and its effects are fairly common place for marines so it makes sense to mind wipe to protect the grey knights rather than to expunge marines of knowledge of chaos, If you dont think thats the case then feel free to post some codex quotes that contradict my understanding of it.

Personally i prefer the idea that the grey knights operate above the rest of the chapters in such a way that they have to be protected by these measures, makes for far better and interesting fluff and makes the threat of chaos much more scary


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

Emperors Mercy said:


> I think the hesitation comes from them being on a planet with a company of slaughtered Fists and after fighting a Daemon off they find 2 Fists. You gotta admit it sounds a bit suspicious.


yeah but even before they landed they sounded like they didnt want to help at all.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm sure Space Marines get along all right, but they'd rather be chilling with necrons.

/trolling lol


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

GW surely know how to fuck the existing SM customer base in the eye!

You guys have been loyal for decades, spent 1000s on our products, countless man hours gaming and hobbying, *NOW* we bring an army that fluff and rule wise beats the shit out of your army you have spent so long on, they are soooo uber your guys even get their minds miped if they even glimpse 'em.

Well done. :dunno: :blackeye:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Occupy Gamesworkshop

Who Is With Me?


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> Occupy Gamesworkshop
> 
> Who Is With Me?


LOL if we can get 3 more people we can fully occupy the FLGS in my home town, its a cupboard! :biggrin:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> well i would assume that if there mind were wiped of the events then they will have big gaping holes for memories, but who cares they live to serve the emperor so you would just have to tell them it was done in his name and bish bash bosh off they toddle happy in the knowledge what ever happened to them needed to happen for the emperor.


Really, you think Marines would be a-okay with the knowledge that somebody had tampered with their minds so long as it was 'for the Emperor'? I personnally highly, highly doubt that.

Marines are, and have always been shown to be, a law unto themselves. Even the Inquisition has been hesitant to sanction outright blasphemous Chapters in the past. Marines are very proud of their military history and their independence. Many Chapters, if not most, are highly suspicious of psykers, Chaos tampering and the Inquisition. None of these things suggest that Marines would be okay with being mind wiped.

Plus, think about this. You're a Chapter Master, you get reports of some kind of cultist activities so you send out a battle group. Six months latter the remains of that group return from battling Chaos, having suffered severe casualties. You ask the Captain "Hey bro, what happened?" and he can't remember, instead he mutters something about fighting daemons and mind wiping for the Emperor. My first thought? He's been possessed/corrupted, kill them all.



> Anyway i was just pointing out that in the Grey knights codex, the general gist is they are super secret and the wiping of minds is done to protect that secrecy, after all chaos and its effects are fairly common place for marines so it makes sense to mind wipe to protect the grey knights rather than to expunge marines of knowledge of chaos,


Why exactly do the GK need to be kept a secret though? It's not like Chaos is unaware of them, so they can't be hiding from the enemy. Indeed all it really does is hinder the ability of others (allies) to call for aid. Keeping a force secret is a plenty good idea but Chaos is clearly aware of the actions of the GK so there is no more point in remaining secret. Besides, most Imperial's will never, ever see a GK but wouldn't the tall of super-super-awesome dudes battling the Legions of Hell itself make for some pretty inspiring propaganda?



> If you dont think thats the case then feel free to post some codex quotes that contradict my understanding of it.


I'm not trying to say that it's not in the fluff, I'm more just pointing out the kinds of logical problems associated with this new fluff. 

Plus I have pointed out that prior to this GK codex there is no mention anywhere of this practise being carried out.



> Personally i prefer the idea that the grey knights operate above the rest of the chapters in such a way that they have to be protected by these measures, makes for far better and interesting fluff and makes the threat of chaos much more scary


I think there are better ways to handle making Chaos more scary and indeed I don't see how keeping the GK a secret makes Chaos more scary. It's not denying that Marines can and have fought daemons, alongside GK. It's simply saying that only the GK get to remember. They'd have been better off showing situations were the GK don't have to mind wipe anybody because the foe is literally to hardcore for anyone else to face and live. That makes Chaos more scary, that makes the GK more impressive. All this does is make the super-secret-mary-sues.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

@MEQinc 

Personally I dont really think it matters if the marines would be ok with it or not, the fluff states Dante himself sanctioned it , so if a squad or two has gaps in memory caused by a grey knight libby to carry on the cover up so be it, the likely hood is the marines will be in action again very quickly and it wont matter to them in the grand scheme of things as they will likely die in combat or maybe part of the mind wipe was implanting false memories or selectively editing the battles??? i dont know someone else wrote it.
I dont really take any of the fluff that seriously to be honest, its not worth questioning, continuity isnt exactly GWs strong point and the original fluff which all 40k is based on is full of holes and cock ups, 1000 marines per chapter? someone should be shot for that idea from the off.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> 1000 marines per chapter? someone should be shot for that idea from the off.


LOL, 100% agree there, the sheer scale of the W40k universe and magnitude of the conflicts that happen, those numbers do not add up in relation to the casualties. :scratchhead:

When reading fluff it nags me whenever a marine is blown to pieces or mutilated by the enemy so gene seed removal cannot happen. I then think that this must have happened loads of times, so in 10,000 years how come these guys are still about! 

Maybe when it was written, 1000 was the highest number the creator could conceive :laugh:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Durant said:


> When reading fluff it nags me whenever a marine is blown to pieces or mutilated by the enemy so gene seed removal cannot happen. I then think that this must have happened loads of times, so in 10,000 years how come these guys are still about!


Getting massively off topic here but...

1) Every Marine has two progenoid glands. One of which is removed shortly after maturation. Thus any marine mutilated on the battlefield will still likely have left 1 organ behind to create his replacement.
2) There are absolutely massive storage banks of gene-seed. Each Chapter has one in their fortress-monastary and many also appear to have ships loaded with them. Plus there are two are the banks kept by the Mechanicus to ensure purity and create new chapters.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> @MEQinc
> 
> Personally I dont really think it matters if the marines would be ok with it or not, the fluff states Dante himself sanctioned it , so if a squad or two has gaps in memory caused by a grey knight libby to carry on the cover up so be it, the likely hood is the marines will be in action again very quickly and it wont matter to them in the grand scheme of things as they will likely die in combat or maybe part of the mind wipe was implanting false memories or selectively editing the battles??? i dont know someone else wrote it.
> I dont really take any of the fluff that seriously to be honest, its not worth questioning, continuity isnt exactly GWs strong point and the original fluff which all 40k is based on is full of holes and cock ups, 1000 marines per chapter? someone should be shot for that idea from the off.


You're not the only one who feels this way. The only reason this has become a more inflated part of the GK fluff is to add more Grimdark to a chapter that would otherwise be too 'goody-goody two-shoes' for 40k. Same with the sorcery practitioning elements and the use of living allies as sacrifices. Some love it, others think it's too illogical. But take it away and the whines of, 'they're all Mary-Sues' would probably be louder.

As for the mind-wipping itself, apparently it was previously established in Rogue Trader but was fazed out in 2E/3E. Matt Ward being the revivalist he is brought it back from obscurity. This is according to long-time GK fans I've talked to about it. Personally, I've never been big on Rogue-Trader era lore and never read about it, so I'm not sure if it's true or not.

As for the specifics, I've always gone along with the notion that the upper-crust of any Chapter hierarchy is allowed to know of the Grey Knight's existence but your average marine grunt isn't. However, like yourself I think mind-wipes are too illogical and inefficient. Wiping one's mind would mean having to completely re-educate them. As a chapter of practicality, such extremes don't make much sense. Instead, going by loose cannon law I'd choose Graham McNeil's view on the subject instead, as in _Headhunted_. Grey Knights can choose to test another chapter's purity through putting their marines through a series of tests, eliminating them only if corruption is found.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Really, you think Marines would be a-okay with the knowledge that somebody had tampered with their minds so long as it was 'for the Emperor'? I personnally highly, highly doubt that.
> 
> Marines are, and have always been shown to be, a law unto themselves. Even the Inquisition has been hesitant to sanction outright blasphemous Chapters in the past. Marines are very proud of their military history and their independence. Many Chapters, if not most, are highly suspicious of psykers, Chaos tampering and the Inquisition. None of these things suggest that Marines would be okay with being mind wiped.
> 
> Plus, think about this. You're a Chapter Master, you get reports of some kind of cultist activities so you send out a battle group. Six months latter the remains of that group return from battling Chaos, having suffered severe casualties. You ask the Captain "Hey bro, what happened?" and he can't remember, instead he mutters something about fighting daemons and mind wiping for the Emperor. My first thought? He's been possessed/corrupted, kill them all.


I was thinking about it in the shower this morning and I came to the conclusion that the mind-wiping is probably pretty selective.

Important but non-GK related memories are probably left intact. Also the memories of willingly submitting to being mind-wiped are probably left as well.

And c'mon, Space Marines have given their lives in service to the Emperor and the Imperium. Given what we've seen to what lengths a Space Marine will do for either, I think it's safe to assume that a little mind-wiping is fair game.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Durant said:


> LOL, 100% agree there, the sheer scale of the W40k universe and magnitude of the conflicts that happen, those numbers do not add up in relation to the casualties. :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe when it was written, 1000 was the highest number the creator could conceive :laugh:


well from what i have read in various articles, rogue trader was almost done for a bit of a laugh, they didnt really take it all too seriously back in the day, they didnt expect fantasy in space to actually catch on and were expecting after a couple of years for it to die back and return to warhammer fantasy being the dominant game for the company and the stores to carry non GW products, roleplaying games etc. 
It was a bit of a melting pot for quite a number of years, with various army lists and combinations chucked around in WD and Citadel journels and such. I still have a collection of WD dating back to the late 80s and early 90's and even though alot of the stuff was very well written and imaginative it wasnt very coherent and more based on the whims of the writer at the time.


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## SynthNine (Oct 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> I was thinking about it in the shower this morning and I came to the conclusion that the mind-wiping is probably pretty selective.
> 
> Important but non-GK related memories are probably left intact. Also the memories of willingly submitting to being mind-wiped are probably left as well.
> 
> And c'mon, Space Marines have given their lives in service to the Emperor and the Imperium. Given what we've seen to what lengths a Space Marine will do for either, I think it's safe to assume that a little mind-wiping is fair game.


 Yes to me it seems like a lot of them would be doing it because they feel its the right thing to do right off the bat even no matter how much they would hate to do it.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

SynthNine said:


> yeah but even before they landed they sounded like they didnt want to help at all.


I don't remember that but it might have to do with leaving their brothers who are fighting nods to help another chapter. It was a comic in the special edition movie I borrowed.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Okay. So I'll ask again. What do the Marines end up thinking happened?



*flash*

Marine:"What just happened?"

Inquisitor:"Okay, so, you had a nasty fall in with some crap from this planet, some REALLY noxious gas even to Astarte's, you all fell unconscious and started imagining something called Grey Knights and Chaos and Daemons"

Marine looks over and see's some dead Chaos Marines/Grey Knights* "okay... if you say so..."

Inquisitor:"mind wipe them again"

*flash*

Inquisitor:"I hate my job..." *rubs head*


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## Sem'ael Elear (Nov 6, 2011)

Stopped reading too much after page one here..

DA/SW have a big rivalry but thats it, the all out fight between the SW and DA was because the DA wanted the Fallen in the book (if I recall correctly) and they will do ANYTHING to get them. Other than that it was at the descression of William King what happened in that book, but recent fluff says they don't hate each other, their rivalry is friendly and not hostile and often spured each army to greater heights in proving who was superior. Russ and Johnson got along rather well after their fight. All that good stuff, I played DA for 7 years or so, my boddy has played SW for just as long


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> imagine it from there point of veiw, you are trained and fight hundreds of years against everything the universe can throw at you and you have access to all the war gear the mechanicum can possibly produce.... then some silver armour wearing bastard walks in and nuts the deamon you have been fighting for the last hour and doesnt even break a sweat.





GeneralSturnn said:


> *flash*
> 
> Marine:"What just happened?"
> 
> ...


:laugh::rofl: after reading these two bits, i couldnt help but die from laughing!

i dont recall the mind wiping from the codex but its been a long time since i borrowed it from a buddy, will have to look into that. either way, fluff is fluff. i look at it as great debate topics


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> I'm not trying to say that it's not in the fluff, I'm more just pointing out the kinds of logical problems associated with this new fluff.
> 
> Plus I have pointed out that prior to this GK codex there is no mention anywhere of this practise being carried out.I


I have the Codex Inperialis (2nd Edition 40K) in front of me and it mentions Mind-wipe (scrubbing) in it. Basically says that -

- It is very rare for the Ordo (Malleus) to request aid from Space Marines, as they are extreme;y valuable troops whose fighting qualities are sorely needed in other theatres of war. If ordinary Space Marines are employed on behalf of the Ordo , survivors are subjected to a deep hypnotic treatment designed to eradicate their recent memories. The process is not absolutely infallible amd sometimes a marine's ezperiences will lead to insanity, in which case death is the most merciful option. In most cases however this so - called mind scrubbingis totally effective, and the marine can return to his chapter freed from the memoriesof any horrors he might have witnessed.

So in this case anyway it's the Ordo Malleus, not the GK's organisation, that does the mind wipe.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

HOBO said:


> I have the Codex Inperialis (2nd Edition 40K) in front of me and it mentions Mind-wipe (scrubbing) in it.


Well bugger me sideways.

So, now I will admit that the fluff exists and has apparently existed for a while (though it appears to have disappeared for a bit). It still doesn't make sense though.


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