# New to Eldar...questions :)



## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello. Going to be trying to start Eldar after Christmas and I have a few questions with Eldar before I purchase any models...

1) I'm thinking of playing mech eldar and was wondering if I have the key units down...Farseer/Eldrad, spam Wave Serpents with Dire Avengers, 2-3 Fire Prisms, 0-1 Falcons. Is that normally what is the most competitive way to run mech eldar? Or are there any models I'm missing?

2) A couple friends were talking about hardest to kill units in the game and they mentioned Eldar bikes or something. They said it was even harder to kill and deadlier than Ork Nob Bikers with a Warboss...Can someone explain what they are talking about? What unit and what wargear are they using to achieve this in the Eldar Codex? Also, is it considered a deathstar or just a unit to bog down other stuff that will live forever... (anvil)

3) I play a Blood Angel mech army as well and I was wondering if there are big differences between playing BA mech and Eldar mech. If anyone has any experience or insight on this I'd love to hear about it. I want to know if I'm going to be playing the same way and if it will be any more different. Don't really want to start an army and play the exact same thing... Do Eldar do mech better?

4) Any use for pathfinders? I think they are really cool units from reading the book. 2+ cover saves with snipers...so sexy. Or do these not belong in a mech list? I think they could fit since 2/3 games are objective and to have these cover your home objective is nice.

5) So far from all the research I have been doing and reading about Eldar it seems Mech Eldar is what wins most tournaments. Is there any other playstyle for Eldar that I missed that is tournament competitive? If so what is it and how does it run so I can check that out too. If it's not too much trouble could you post a list?

6) Is there any Eldar specific ACTIVE forums? Like TyranidHive is for nids and BolterandChainsword is for Space Marines?


Thanks guys!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Well congratulations in not choosing a power armoured army! To answer your questions:

1. Mechdar is very original (sarcasm here if not detected) and is used by a lot of tournament players. Only unit missing that is used a lot are fire dragons.

2. I believe your friends to be mentioning a seer council on jetbikes. Give a farseer doom and fortune, give a warlock embolden, one enhance, one conceal and then any other present destructor allows them to be very hard on the charge and with fortuned invuns survive well

3. Having never played BA mech I assume they are similar to vanilla mech. If so then the answer is not much but eldar units are more fragile but hit harder against the right target.

4. I like pathfinders as well but in mech eldar they are not often used. I do not play mech eldar so I have plenty. It could be possible to include a unit to cover homebase but they will be isolated soon.

5. Not really. You can experiment like I have but I find it will be hard to not include at least 1 meched unit. I play a farseer, dire avenger unit in wave serpent (accompanies farseer), fire dragons in a falcon, harlequin unit (for countercharging) and dark reapers.

6. I do not know of any Eldar specific forums but I have found you do not really need to.

No problem!


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## viciousjokekiller (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi. Nice choice getting mech elder. I personally love the look of the eldar models, particularly the sleek tanks.

1. For models you’re missing, may I suggest guardians on jetbikes. They’re troops, a 3+ save and they get extra toughness for being on a bike, so they can grab objectives easily and are less likely to get shot down, particularly with turbo-boost, and even fortune if you get to opportunity. Your list also seems to lack close combat abilities (as to be expected I suppose). I recommend a wraithlord or two. You can gear them up for shooting if you like and if it comes down to it, they’re great for close combat, even if just for tieing up enemies and keeping them away from your shooting units. Be sure to keep a farseer nearby though, and always watch out for powerfists and lascannons. Wraithlords are also quite scary for the enemy, and they’ll undoubtedly donate a lot of fire against them, soaking up lascannons etc originally aimed at your tanks. A wound on a wraithlord is a lot better than a wrecked tank, and is much cheaper too.

2. As already stated the unit in question is probably the seer council. (Note conceal is useless as all the models get a 4+ invul automatically). With fortune they are almost invincible, get 3 attacks each with 2+ to wound. 

3. Having never played BA I’m not sure, but generally the eldar are better at their specific task but are much more fragile. Eg: Dire avengers are great at shooting, but fall like dried leaves in combat.

4. Having a non-mech army, I love a pathfinder unit, as they can infiltrate on objectives and have the range to do something while they’re there. Just be careful they don’t get isolated. If the rest of your army is in tanks, every heavy bolter, plasma cannon etc will be aimed at the rangers.

Hope this helps.


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> 2. I believe your friends to be mentioning a seer council on jetbikes. Give a farseer doom and fortune, give a warlock embolden, one enhance,* one conceal *and then


Everything you've said is right, bar giving one of the warlocks Conceal. I might give the Farseer mind war instead of doom, but whatever.

(Sorry, I seem to be the second poster to correct you on that.)

Well, OP, you've pretty much got it all. As he said, fire dragons in serpents are also common. 

Just make sure that you mess around. Don't go for one list because the internet said it was better. Test, use units you haven't bought yet to see how they play, and so on.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually conceal does have a purpose for giving a cover save that can stack with turbo-boosting. 2+ rerollable cover save for first turn anyone?


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

...doesn't work, I think. I've checked the codex on Conceal, the rule book on turboboosting and the rulebook on cover saves. There's no reason in mine (you could possibly have a different codex version, I recall there's something else a bit weird about warlocks in one countries' codex) for conceal to stack.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

We have always played to the assumption that saves can be stacked provided that everyone in the unit had the same save to start with. Oh and the best the save can be is 2+ regardless of any modifiers.


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## viciousjokekiller (Dec 29, 2009)

Conceal gives a 5+ cover save while turbo boosting gives a 3+ cover save (or invul i forget). Where is this stacking idea is coming from? (Note I have the Australian version if it matters.)


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Hmm thanks for your help guys. I really love the models/tanks especially of the Eldar. One of the biggest quams I have is that I play Mech BA already and am having a hard time getting into Mech Eldar thinking it will be the same. Most people here answered that the biggest difference is your weaker >_> That doesn't really inspire me very much lol

Anyone care to defend Eldar on this? Or are they about right on?

I love the Fire Prisms and Falcon models though. Look really cool


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

They are wrong or bad at playing Eldar. They are not weaker as such. They require more intelligence than BA due to worse armour, low toughness etc. However when employed against their better target eldar units decimate whatever they are shooting at better than any BA unit or equivalent can.


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

@Stephen_Newman: Oh ok so their weaker but they push our firepower much easier and are much deadlier in that regard? Is that right?

Also, with Fire Dragons...their weapons are awesome but 12" range...?? How do you play those guys? First turn move up 12" unload 2" and shoot something? That's getting really close and in my mech play experience you usually want to stay as far away from the enemy while you gun them down...

Also Str7/8 is really deadly to our vehicles since their only AV 12...with BA we have AV 13 walls of Predators. How do Eldar deal with this? 

If you could answer my pushback questions Id really appreciate it. I'm not arguing their bad I just want to know as much as I can before I take the jump into it. Please don't take any of my questions negatively.

Thanks


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> We have always played to the assumption that saves can be stacked provided that everyone in the unit had the same save to start with. Oh and the best the save can be is 2+ regardless of any modifiers.


That would be a houserule, not a rule. And oh man, I don't like it. Consider the effect on models with a storm shield and iron halo... 
EDIT: Actually, there's a much better example closer to hand. TH/SS termies wear terminator armour and have storm shields. Therefore, they have a 2+ invulnerable save by your rules.
-> Basically, I'm trying to say the normal rules don't do that, or at least say when they do, and there aren't any specific rules appended to either Cover saves in general or Conceal/Turboboosting that would let you do that. 



syypher said:


> @Stephen_Newman: Oh ok so their weaker but they push our firepower much easier and are much deadlier in that regard? Is that right?
> 
> Also, with Fire Dragons...their weapons are awesome but 12" range...?? How do you play those guys? First turn move up 12" unload 2" and shoot something? That's getting really close and in my mech play experience you usually want to stay as far away from the enemy while you gun them down...
> 
> ...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've never played BA Mech so I don't know how much brains they take to play, but I can tell you that Mechdar can beat almost any army in the game if you play them right. People who call them weak are simply wrong, either due to bias or ignorance.

Yes, your guys are only T3 with 4+ saves. They die in droves to Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters. This means that having them out in the open in the wrong place at the wrong time is potentially catastrophic (you can easily lose an entire 10 man unit just by misjudging movement even slightly).

However, to balance it out, they ride around in transports that are mathematically as hard to kill as a Land Raider when they turbo boost or get a cover save of any kind, and are better against Melta, period. Not only that, but they have the option of rerolling their cover saves, making them incredibly resilient.

Their infantry, although weak, is incredibly good at a single job.

Dire Avengers with a Guide/Doom Seer next to them put out 32 S4 AP5 shots with rerolls to hit and wound. I normally average 20 wounds vs Marines, which is a lot of saves to be taken. Against Orks and Guard it gets even better.

Fire Dragons are very cheap per model for a BS4 Melta. A unit of 6-8 will reliably slag anything they aim at, and a unit of 6 is less than 100pts. I'll trade that for their Land Raider or 3-4 Termies any day.

Banshees/Harlies/Scorpions are all very good assault units. Obviously each unit is better against different opponents, so provided you choose well then you should have no problems cutting a swathe.

The Heavy Support is also very strong, with the option for S10 AP1 Twin Linked Small Blast coming out of 2x Fire Prisms, or a S6 AP3 Twin Linked Large Blast if you want it.

Falcons make great gunboats for their points, and can carry a small unit of avengers to make it scoring, or 6 Fire Dragons if you don't want to waste a Serpent on a small unit.

Either of these, in cover with Holofields will absorb far more firepower than their AV12 chassis would lead you to believe. Even if they get glanced then you can take the opportunity to move 24" behind another piece of terrain and resume sniping next turn.

The entire army is so bitchin' fast, it just pisses a lot of people off. It's like chasing a butterfly. A butterfly that's stinging you in the face. And occasionally removing entire limbs in one go.

However you will probably get slaughtered the first few games you play. Stick with it. Above most armies I play, Eldar stand out as being the one that requires the most practice to play.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah. I find using 6 fire dragons in a falcon as a pretty good anti-vehicle unit. Armed with holo-fields and a scatter laser with spirit stones they turbo-boost first turn before unloading in 2nd turn and the Falcon acts as a good depltion unit for the guys that were riding inside. For fire dragon exarch taking the tank hunter skills might seem overpowered but why do you care for the other guy.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I would not recommend wasting points on a Fire Dragon Exarch, You're paying 27 points for BS5 and +1 on the AP roll. You're a suicide unit so you should treat it as such, making it as cheap as possible. 

Falcons I'm iffy about, you get a Serpent for ~100 points, that Falcon is 175 points and eats one of your Heavy Support slots, it's not overpowered. Because you're zipping in really close with the Dragons that melta protection is really strong for the serpents. Depends on you're points value though, you're Heavy Support will already be full before buying Falcons at 1750+

Oh and cover saves don't stack.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I tend to co-ordinate a strike against a single or group of targets so my single unit of Fire Dragons do normally survive because everything in the army concentrates on everything in their area. I also find that flying a serpent that close only serves to bring about their destruction since they just get struck down in CC where the energy field rule does jack shit. 

I play mostly foot gunline eldar. My only zippy units are said fire dragons in falcon, a wave serpent with dires and a farseer and a unit of harlequins that engage an easy target with multiple CC attacks. The rest sits back and shoots the crap out of the other guy.


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

What would you guys fill up your slots with then in the Heavy slot? 3 Fire Prisms? Noone really plays horde at my gameshop. It's a lot of vehicles, some biker armies or SW ML spam with thunderwolves. Even our orc player goes nob bikers and AV14 battlewagons and a few trukks. Not really any mass horde foot armies.


Can I get a more detailed explanation on how to use Fire Dragons. Or is it just that their sole purpose is to suicide into a vehicle and die next turn. Wouldn't you lose your Wave Serpent too when you drive in close to drop them off? You need to be in 6" of the enemy just to do their melta effect... Sounds like an expensive melta squad.

So from what I've read most Eldar armies move as fast as possible to gain saves and reposition, hope they dont get destroyed on their opponents turn then fire? Isn't it fairly ez to get a vehicle destroyed with AV12 since a lot of armies pack str 7/8 weapons. Or am I completely off?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

You are right by saying AV 12 vehicles are normally easy to destroy. However Eldar have a number of special rules or vehicle upgrades known locally in my area as pixie tricks that make them much more survivable.

I lend a heavy support choice to a falcon to act as a Fire Dragon taxi and another choice on dark reapers. They are great against marine forces and a decent squad should cost between 147 points (3 members including exarch with crack shot and tempest launcher) and 217 points (same options but with 5 people). I have not used Fire Prisms recently since I sold off my old models some time ago thinking the new one would be awesome. Sadly I think it sucks and I have never used them since.

Fire dragons are extremely cheap for points value. For 16 points you get a BS4 Meltagun which packs quite a punch. They can be used as small suicide squad or larger more survivable squad.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Putting Fire Dragons in a Falcon is silly, because Falcons aren't immune to Melta, greatly increasing the likelihood of them being shot down.

Much as I hate to disagree with Sethis, I don't think there can be any argument that every 5e Codex is superior to Eldar. Since that list is now:
Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, that puts Eldar firmly in the middle in terms of power. 

I don't know about you guys, but I consider 'in the middle' to be another way of saying 'mediocre'. Eldar are very firmly mediocre.

For 1750, I recommend a list similar to:

Eldrad - 210
5 Dragons w/ Serpent [Lance, Cannon] - 225
5 Dragons w/ Serpent [Lance, Cannon] - 225
5 Dragons w/ Serpent [Lance, Cannon] - 225
5 Avengers w/ Serpent [Lance, Cannon] - 205
5 Avengers w/ Serpent [Lance, Cannon] - 205
5 Avengers - 60
Fire Prism [Cannon] - 115
Fire Prism [Cannon] - 115
Falcon [Lance, Cannon, H-F, Stones] - 200

Though I think that's 1785, so I would drop maybe some Dragons for 2x7 instead. Replace with 2 Scatter Vypers.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've never had insurmountable problems with Vanilla Marines or Angels, and I can cope with Nids provided they haven't gone full retard with 9 Hive Guard.

Wolves and Guard are obviously the two most powerful codicies out there, which we'll have problems with (15 Missile Launchers for 300pts my ass...) and Dark Eldar haven't been tested enough for archetypes to be established or even a concrete power level.

That does leave Orks, Tau, Crons, Daemons, CSM and the Inquisition we more or less get auto-wins against. I would label Eldar as in the top quarter somewhere, even if they are gradually slipping more and more towards the middle, still very playable.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sethis, you cope because you're between good and very very good. Unfair comparison.

On paper, Eldar are distinctly inferior.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Sethis said:


> I've never had insurmountable problems with Vanilla Marines or Angels, and I can cope with Nids provided they haven't gone full retard with 9 Hive Guard.


I have only played against 'Nids, but I have no respect for them if they aren't playing 9 Hive Guard or 6 Hive Guard and 3 Zoanthropes. I can't think of a codex with less ranged vehicle breaking (though Chaos Daemons and Necrons come close.


Sethis said:


> Wolves and Guard are obviously the two most powerful codicies out there, which we'll have problems with (15 Missile Launchers for 300pts my ass...) and Dark Eldar haven't been tested enough for archetypes to be established or even a concrete power level.


It's actually 420pts for 15 Missile Launchers (28pts/S8 shot). Which when you consider that 9 hive guard cost 450 pts and get 18 shots (25pts/S8 shot) probably explains why you hate both; your army full of AV12 models with Energy Field suffer in an environment that rewards volumes of S8/S7 shots.


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## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

Hmm...I'm assuming this army would also have troubles with my type of BA mech army then. Majority of my weapons are TL Assault Cannons that are str 6 but I also occassionally run 3x Dual TL AC dreds. That's 12x str 7 TL shots. 

If I played Mechdar that would make those guys priority #1 I'm taking it lol.

Any other bits of info on mechdar that anyone can give me about its competitiveness in a tournament scene. Thanks. I'm getting lots of good info


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

Hmm, since there is already an Eldar discussion thread I figure I might pose this thought for feedback here. (Also because it concerns a Mechdar approach as well, if you want to use it as such)

Would taking a squad of 5 Dire Avengers, adding on a Guide/Fortune Farseer, and stiking them in a Falcon be something anyone would try? Just thought of it, ao i figure I get impressions before running it. The thought of it being I stick the Falcon in some Cover, Fortune to give it a rerolling, and then Guide to make whatever guns on the Falcon Twin Linked and therefore hitting with some reliability. They all park on a victory point, and the Avengers keep it under your control.


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

Oh, and to give some insight into your concerns:

I play Eldar mainly. Love em. But since I got into Warhammer I have also had a fondness for Grey Knights. I love the idea of the elite amongst the elite. And so I have slowly built an army around them as well. From the first day I played them, I was utterly floored by how the 'lesser races' were able to cope with so terribly slow moving craft. It was like I was playing the game in slow motion. An Eldar Tank can go three times as far as any other vehicle in the game. You can lure the enemy to seperate their frontline from their rear, and then punish them by flying right over them and dropping a deadly payload right at the heart of their home. And with a bright lance on a Wave Serpent, your vehicles are basically on equal footing with a Land Raider. Only you can fly circles around it, and cost half as much.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Technically that could all work. However it seems like a large amount of points in my eyes just to have a twin linked falcon.


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

Well at first I was felt the same. But the amount of firepower it can lay down consistently, with an impressive survivability between the cover and Holo Fields, makes for a lethal way to hold a capture point with some depensability. And its always easy enough to put a backup plan nearby, like a pack of rangers. If the Falcon goes poof, Fortune and Guide both benefit the Rangers, and if late game the spot seems secure, there is enough speed in the Falcon to shuttle those Avengers to another point for them to take.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

If by 'Farseer' you mean 'Eldrad' then yes, perfectly viable. I do it all the time.

@syypher - Assault Cannons mean nothing to Eldar, as Wave Serpents are immune to Rending.


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