# Does Chaos get shat upon by GW?



## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Personally I've seen loads of shit while comparing the standard SM codex to my csm codex.

1) the lack of 'modern' tanks availiableto csm where SM have tons and their tanks get loads more special rules like their vindi can fire as a barrage.

2) the csm fluff sucks in that: "I'm a Daemon Primarch. I'm many more times powerfull than a normal primarch. If we all got off our fat arses then we could beat the Imperium hands-down. Hmmm... maybe tommorow".I smell bull shit!:ireful2:

3) lack of 'advanced' tech like assault cannons and whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons and artificer armour and any form of psychic defence and attack bikes and land speeders and land raider crusaders and land raider redeemer...

4) oh and storm shields and drop pods and snipers and razorbacks and servitors and techpriests and storm bolters and hunter-killer missiles and _flying_ dreadnoughts and even sane dreadnoughts...

5) and also GWs shitty exusses like

"but technology has moved on since the horus heresy"

_but marines are always going renegade and taking their technology with them:_
_"sir we've forgotten the drop pods!"_
_"Ah well, leave them"_
_"But why sir!? they give us a distinct advantage!"_
_"I don't know... it just feels right..."_
_bullshit:ireful2:._
_______________________________________________________________

But what really rattles my cage is that in the book 'a thousand sons' the terminators are described as having storm bolters and assault cannons. I blaim Graham McNeil for this! This is because in the book he says that they call it the 'reaper' because they find it a fitting name. Then some twat-faced codex writer (a.k.a. Gav Thorpe) saw it and thinks 'that'll make a good gun!' completely over looking that it already exists and has rules but he decides to write his own version just to bullshit chaos players:ireful2:.

*However, chaos should not get these things!* We are too much like loyalists anyway and we don't want to become "Codex:Renegades" as we lost a lot of what defines us as chaos when the latest dex came out.

What I'm getting at is that we should *at least* have some chaotic equivilents.

For example wouldn't Iron Warrior players love some form of artillery _*cough* *whirlwinds* *cough*_

Wouldn't Steel Brethren players love drop pods:


> notes: extensive use of transports and *drop pods*


 That's from the csm codex.

Wouldn't Alpha Legion love cultists?

Wouldn't World Eaters, that's the blood thirsty ones that are blessed by the *god* of cc, love to be as good at it as some space puppies. And please GW... give them back their collars and axes.

And our codex is barely original:
Unique HQ choices=1-Daemon Princes
Unique Elites choices=1-Possessed
Unique Fast Attack choices=1-Spawn
Unique Heavy Support choices=2:shok:-Obliterators and Defilers

The only place where we are really unique is the Troops section and that's only because of the cult troops (who all have their SM equivilent anyway) and summoned daemons.

At the moment we are just SMs with a few MCs thrown in for shits and giggles.

FUCK YOU GAMES WORKSHOP!:angry::ireful2:

(Angry rant over and thanks to the people who read the lot, I'm really pissed off):headbutt::hang1:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Wow its like i have been transported back 3 years ???


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Woot! for the angry rant. Where would we be without them :laugh:

I'm not sure they are 'shitting' on Chaos as much as either:
1. Leaving them too long for a complete overhaul hence getting a bit dusty
Or
2. Relying too much on the 'Technology has moved on' line, simply because they can't be arsed to do the above.

I must agree, when i started to play 40k, i was somewhat suprised at the lack of things like Drop pods and Whirlwinds in the ranks of Chaos.

SGMAlice


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

The solution to some of these arguments, is daemon-engines. I would *love* to see more of these things, but the most we see is possessed vehicles and Defilers. I'd like some more variety in these things.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

look a new chaos codex will probably come out in 5 years and then you can complain how bad that one is, sound fair?


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

you're angry that you are too much like the normal SM but you're saying that you should get Drop Pods, Whirlwinds, Variant Land Raiders, and Thunderfire Cannons?

you sir are trying to have your cake and eat it too which won't happen


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I'll be honest I find alot of these sorts of threads tiresome, but this one pops up a fair bits so here I go on a counter rant

Chaos have drop pods, their called dreadclaws, and there availible from forge world. When the chaos dex was released, vanilla SM didn't have drop pods, other than FW ones, and the loyalist model is far simpler and so was far easier to turn into a plastic kit.

Storm shields have only been popular since the new lloyalist dex came out, before assault termis were rare in the extreme, so moaning for these is like saying their good i want them as well, fluff wise only iron warriors would have them anyway, chaos are not massive on the whole self preservation, and none of the other legions really like that sort of stuff, plus IWs wouldn't want whirlwhinds their not heavy enough, they usee large calibre weapons to punch through massive fortication, whirlwings are far more field weapons

Same with the redeemer, and the thunderfire, new models that came out AFTER the chaos dex

By flying dreadnoughts I take you mean in a storm Raven, erm new codex by any chance?

Scouts are no longer used by traitors, its a fluff reason, the closest they use are cultists this is one place i agree, they should have cultists as a cheap troop unit

Remember a thousand sons was writen 5 yrs after the chaos dex, so don't moan that the dex isn't the same! The storm bolter is effectivly a combi bolter, its reasonable that imperium has improved its design in 10,000 years

Your rant really reads like you just want to have all the cool stuff from all the different marine lists, If you want to do that do that with a vanila marine list and just say their really traitors. The chaos dex should not just be a copy of the marine dex with new units, there needs to be things that make each unique, including making them play differently


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Barnster said:


> I'll be honest I find alot of these sorts of threads tiresome, but this one pops up a fair bits so here I go on a counter rant
> 
> Chaos have drop pods, their called dreadclaws, and there availible from forge world. When the chaos dex was released, vanilla SM didn't have drop pods, other than FW ones, and the loyalist model is far simpler and so was far easier to turn into a plastic kit.
> 
> ...



So your point is that even though Marine's and Chapter's have gone Chaos in the last 10K years they just "forgot" all their tech? Not to mention that there are Ad-Mech on the Chaos side also that are activly searching for new tech(we dont get to see any of this though).

No the Chaos dex should not be a carbon copy of the marine dex, but by removing all the demons from the chaos dex without adding anything they have done nothing to make people feel they should continue with this army.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

They may not have forgotten it when they went renegade, they may have taken their tech with them but they may lack the necessary parts to repair and service the landspeeders etc

Plus the Chaos Space Marine dex gets lots of good stuff too... plague marines? oblits? warptime nurgle DPs? what a chapter goes renegade one day and the next their packing defilers and plague marines?


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

@Brainfreeze

NO

What I'm saying is don't moan that GW has released newer stuff since the chaos dex was released and not straight away re released the chaos dex just to give traitor versions of the new stuff. 

I agree that daemons should not have been nigh on completely purged but that shouldn't make them vanila marines, If your a new player than vanilla are probably the better army simply because they have had the newest update, rember GW doesn't release all the codexes the same day, some are naturally older and not as suited to new players, people who have played chaos for years are not going to say I have no landspeeders I quit, Hey they only just got the vindicator!

If you want a fluffy reason why there no new heavy tech in the legions, they have go in the EoT, the most militerised zone in the galaxy, large transporters simply can't run the blockade


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

YES! damn GW for not releasing every book all at the same time to appease every single gamer in the world.:biggrin:


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> They may not have forgotten it when they went renegade, they may have taken their tech with them but they may lack the necessary parts to repair and service the landspeeders etc
> 
> Plus the Chaos Space Marine dex gets lots of good stuff too... plague marines? oblits? warptime nurgle DPs? what a chapter goes renegade one day and the next their packing defilers and plague marines?



You cant use this line without the opposite... "What a chapter goes renegade one day and all their storm bolters/assualt cannons/drop pods/Land Raider variants/etc etc etc.. fall off and stop working?"

Parts and repair are not the problem chapters have tech marines and more often then not it's assumed that they fall with the chapter, also the CSM have taken far more then 1 forge world so parts are not the issue.

I'm not saying CSM dont get any good stuff(oblits), but there is an obivous logic fault when it comes to which loyalist tech they are allowed.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

I should point out that there's already a thread along these lines currently running, but I'm going to point out something more important.

To everyone on this forum, myself included, who feels that Chaos Marines got a bit of a raw deal three years ago, how about we start a petition to GW to get started on a new Chaos Marine codex.

Yes, they probably won't listen but and I doubt I'm alone on this, all this moaning and then doing nothing about it is getting really old.


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

...flying dreadnoughts!?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> I should point out that there's already a thread along these lines currently running, but I'm going to point out something more important.
> 
> To everyone on this forum, myself included, who feels that Chaos Marines got a bit of a raw deal three years ago, how about we start a petition to GW to get started on a new Chaos Marine codex.
> 
> Yes, they probably won't listen but and I doubt I'm alone on this, all this moaning and then doing nothing about it is getting really old.


It's in the rumor mill, as I recall, that a new Chaos Marine codex has already been started.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Hopefully it will return to codex legions, rather then renagades then!


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

BrainFreeze said:


> You cant use this line without the opposite... "What a chapter goes renegade one day and all their storm bolters/assualt cannons/drop pods/Land Raider variants/etc etc etc.. fall off and stop working?"


By the same logic a chapter doesn't go renegade & the next day have gifts from the Gods, Deamon Princes and deamonic support. 

If you want a newly renegade chapter use the SM codex and deface the imperium symboles. If not ya gotta use the CSM codex, which I will agree sucks compared to the last one.

It still sounds like the "I want my cake & eat it too" arguement. You're saying you want all the cool Chaos stuff & the best stuff from all the SM codexes.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> By the same logic a chapter doesn't go renegade & the next day have gifts from the Gods, Deamon Princes and deamonic support.
> 
> If you want a newly renegade chapter use the SM codex and deface the imperium symboles. If not ya gotta use the CSM codex, which I will agree sucks compared to the last one.
> 
> It still sounds like the "I want my cake & eat it too" arguement. You're saying you want all the cool Chaos stuff & the best stuff from all the SM codexes.


The problem is, as far as the chaos codex is concerned the cake is a lie unless you just want to focus on Oblits and DP.

The CSM legions have less unique about them(rules and options wise) then any of the loyalist legions that get their own codex (Space Wolfs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels).

The codex was stripped of demons because of a money grab, but GW forgot to add things to chaos to make up for losing this.

The point is either give CSM some of the tech, or give them something to make up for the loss of the demons as it is they are not different enough from weakened vanilla SMs to justify the loss of so much variation.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

BrainFreeze said:


> You cant use this line without the opposite... "What a chapter goes renegade one day and all their storm bolters/assualt cannons/drop pods/Land Raider variants/etc etc etc.. fall off and stop working?"


I did use the opposite line, you even quoted it...



ItsPug said:


> They may have taken their tech with them but they may lack the necessary parts to repair and service the landspeeders


Just because they may have captured a forgeworld or two does not mean they have the necessary parts, IG Vanquishers were produced on Tigrus, not on all.

If you want to represent a force that has just turned traitor and still has all its 'normal' gear use the normal codex space marines, if you want to use a force that has been traitor for a while and has forged deamonic pacts etc and their 'normal' equipment may have been written off as beyond repair use codex chaos space marines. There is no 'logic fault' here.



BrainFreeze said:


> The point is either give CSM some of the tech, or give them something to make up for the loss of the demons as it is they are not different enough from weakened vanilla SMs to justify the loss of so much variation.


Or not. Chaos marines get the better troops choices by far, worse fast attack, better elite and heavy support choices and worse HQ (not everybody can be vulkan). When the codex was re-written you got differences from the codex space marines, cult troops, chosen, icons, cheap units that can deepstrike in (without scatter) and assault in the same turn? What else exactly do you want? Railguns? Basilisks?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

This whole argument is pointless. I will not believe a new chaos dex is coming until I know for sure as plenty of used codexes, some of which are popular armies that have been around longer probably deserve an update first. Prime examples include both eldar, tau, black templers, dark angels, necrons and inquisition. Do not forget that fantasy and LotR releases also need to be considered. My belief is that chaos will not get updated until at least 6th ed (assuming a 2012 release for that)


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

BrainFreeze said:


> The problem is, as far as the chaos codex is concerned the cake is a lie unless you just want to focus on Oblits and DP.
> 
> The CSM legions have less unique about them(rules and options wise) then any of the loyalist legions that get their own codex (Space Wolfs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels).
> 
> ...


I really hate how bland this Codex is atm. I would like to see then either replace the daemons, or add some Dark Mechanicus stuff.

Some Individual Legion rules and Characters would work well too.


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Don't ge me wrong I agree the current Chaos Codex has lost pretty much everything that makes them interesting, unique and fun. But saying give me Stormbolters, Stormshields & Assult Cannons doesn't begin to fix the problems & would just make it another paint job on the SM codex.

I personally defiently want to Legion Codexes or even a Codex with most of them in it. I also believe genearic deamons suck balls and if they wanted to make more $ the should allowed them to be allied with the C:SM codex, that way evenyone who plays C:SM woulda bought them too.

I have the utmost respect to all those who've held onto their love of Chaos and continued to use that crappy 'dex.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> Don't ge me wrong I agree the current Chaos Codex has lost pretty much everything that makes them interesting, unique and fun. But saying give me Stormbolters, Stormshields & Assult Cannons doesn't begin to fix the problems & would just make it another paint job on the SM codex.
> 
> I personally defiently want to Legion Codexes or even a Codex with most of them in it. I also believe genearic deamons suck balls and if they wanted to make more $ the should allowed them to be allied with the C:SM codex, that way evenyone who plays C:SM woulda bought them too.
> 
> I have the utmost respect to all those who've held onto their love of Chaos and continued to use that crappy 'dex.


And allowing them to ally with Space Marines wouldn't? Seriously what's got to be stressed here is the idea of Big Chaos, little space marines. We need more units like Possessed and Defilers.

Also I just want to ask are there any people on this forum who play one of the renegade chapters, or who've come up with their own renegade warbands? Because we need to speak up lest we get drowned out by those who are only interested in the traitor legions.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

No chaos does not get "shat" upon by GW, the CSM fanbase does it enough for it to not have to bother....whingers!


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

God I hate these threads

If you hate the codex as much as you express here on the forums I say sell all of your CSM shit, pull the stick out of your fucking ass, grow a pair and get over it with a different army

You guys make it sound like the codex is so bad that you can't play anyone without losing because they are so bad. Just because you don't have the shit that was released a couple fucking years ago doesn't mean you have to fucking post a whining thread about it. I bet there are Necron players that laugh at you guys and how you're acting.

imho I think only DE, Necs, and maybe the Inquisition get to whine as CSM have had more updates than them combined

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone with this I'm just annoyed that people keep whining about the chaos dex


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

hippypancake said:


> God I hate these threads
> 
> If you hate the codex as much as you express here on the forums I say sell all of your CSM shit, pull the stick out of your fucking ass, grow a pair and get over it with a different army
> 
> ...


Awesome well seeing as you dont play chaos as a main army wouldnt the logical road for you to be not to look at these threads. Unless of course you just like being a troll.

People whine about codex's it happins get over it. For you to tell people to stop whining about it and to take a loss of money and just play another army is silly. People are annoyed as hell that they lost the ability to play alot of their army and no matter how much you complain about these threads it wont change that.

On another note Necrons obivously have issues right now, I play them also. But your missing the fact that necrons can still use all the Necron models they bought, they wer'nt split into two armies.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

BrainFreeze said:


> Awesome well seeing as you dont play chaos as a main army wouldnt the logical road for you to be not to look at these threads. Unless of course you just like being a troll.
> 
> People whine about codex's it happins get over it. For you to tell people to stop whining about it and to take a loss of money and just play another army is silly. People are annoyed as hell that they lost the ability to play alot of their army and no matter how much you complain about these threads it wont change that.
> 
> On another note Necrons obivously have issues right now, I play them also. But your missing the fact that necrons can still use all the Necron models they bought, they wer'nt split into two armies.


First army I played was CSM played them for a year then stopped just as the new codex was about to come out. Wolves are more to my liking anyway. I was telling them to sell their army because they are whining about it and complaining that the army isn't good anymore...really? I'm sorry but I've watched nurgle marines take shots that would kill anything else and then just roll with it because of their FNP


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

hippypancake said:


> First army I played was CSM played them for a year then stopped just as the new codex was about to come out. Wolves are more to my liking anyway. I was telling them to sell their army because they are whining about it and complaining that the army isn't good anymore...really? I'm sorry but I've watched nurgle marines take shots that would kill anything else and then just roll with it because of their FNP


He's got a point there. For a 'shit' codex we've still got the best troops and heavy support in the game.


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> He's got a point there. For a 'shit' codex we've still got the best troops and heavy support in the game.


Yeah, thats true. It gets dicey with Raptors, Possessed and Havocs though.
Havocs are redundant when you have Oblits.

Thousand sons seem expensive for what they are too.

The summoned daemons are pretty meh also.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

I've seen people use summoned daemons to camp on home objectives,

Thousands sons every since I converted back to the emperors light have made me die a little inside when they rapid fire with their AP3 bolters

As for Havocs...yeah with oblits they are kinda pointless


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I hate to play the pessimist, but I really don't see the ye olde Legion specific rules returning if and when the new Chaos 'dex is released. Things have a tendency, once they are dumbed down, to stay dumbed down.

We will likely get some fancy special character, some new rules, and maybe some good fluff. Everyone will then resume bitching and this entire argument will arise all over again.

For me, I will keep playing as the sons of Fulgrim, no matter what happens. I will also cuddle with the previous edition of Chaos and dream of yesteryear.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

1 - Deal with it.
2 - Deal with it
3 - Let me explain.

I'm a Chaos player form the 4.5 genaration so i don't know all that much about the old codex but what i do know is that it was several years ago as people can't let go. "blah blah blah. they shoudl remake it becuas eit's crap" Seriously i don't want to sound like i'm defending GW here but i heard someone say that about normal amrines the other day. DE, Necrons, Witch Hunters, daemon Hunters and possibly Tau and Dark Angels need the revamp way more than Chaos do. Chaos still work and work well. every other army is eaisther half metal(or all metal), old rules form 3rd gen or have to built a sertain way to even work giving no variation. Hell i would love a new Eldar codex but i know i ain't going to get one for a while because they [email protected]#king work!
Stop bitchign aolbut how they are unfair to you and consider your self lucky that your not a solo Dark Eldar player.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

ive hard the people that wrote the 4th ed codex arent around anymore.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

*Q)* - Does Chaos get shat upon by GW?

One codex that a lot of fans are unhappy about does not equate "shat upon" 

The fact is that virtually every person responsible for the previous codex have admitted they understand why so many fans dislike it and will make up for it in the next codex.

CSM are in fact one of the favoured 40K armies, most members of the design team have csm as their second army (if not the first) in 40k and if you listen to just about anybody involved talk about csm you will hear them speak far more fondly about csm then most armies.

Csm still play well and won't end up waiting too long until they get a new codex.

*A)* = No, deal with it


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## jondoe297 (Jan 6, 2010)

It seems they have lost their identity a bit and it would be nice to get some legion specific additions, cultists and 'proper daemons' back but to say they have been shat upon . . . .! Well they have two (in my opinion) of the best troop choices in the game! Need I mention oblits here as well! I haven't lost a game using my boys! P.s if you're are particularly gutted about not having storm bolters assault cannons etc I'm sure the new forge world badab books will be up your street!
My point is chaos is awesome and they are given much love (not as much as the loyalist scum albeit)!


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

jaws900 said:


> 1 - Deal with it.
> 2 - Deal with it
> 3 - Let me explain.
> 
> ...


Chill out, guy.

We know they need an update first. You don't hear anyone saying that they want an update first before the others armies that seriously need them far more than Chaos does. So before you have another conniption - we are merely talking about a new Chaos 'dex, what we miss, and wondering when we are going to get it, mkay? Many other armies need updates first, and I only hope GW delivers them before Chaos gets one.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

i believe chaos marines do need a new codex, im hoping end of next year maybe start of 2012, but other armies need a new codex first so it can wait. 

Plus it gives me a chance to build an army that is entirely undivided, because at the moment my word bearer squads have different icons, so adding new units which are undivided before the new dex appears, atm i can split my army into word bearers, nurgle and khorne in almost equal parts.

Im also hoping for daemon engines to make a big appearence in the next dex, as well as special characters with legion rules


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Considering the "talk" of codex release change (ie codexes being released without models and models showing up at a later date in waves)
CSM would fit in with this quite well as they could cope better then most with a quick codex release and models following whenever


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Sorry guys!:victory:
got really pissed off last night as I got dumped, drunk and fell over.:hang1:
So, naturally, I decided to take it out on GW like everyone else!
I agree that we don't want to become SMs and if you read the whole post then you would understand that.
I do think that we need more variation and things like more daemon engines and daemonic units.
For instance, there was a psychic power that you could cast on a squad to possess them with daemons and make them better at combat (for a cost(forget what)).

I have no intention of throwing away my 5500(ish)pts and have a pure death guard army in production. I just feel like I have a renegades army and not a Chaos Space Marine army.

We only have 8 unique units beyond our troops choices and only 3-5(if you use summond daemons) of those are used regulary by players (daemon princes, chosen and obliterators) so we do need more chaos in our chaos army!

Sorry that I spammed the forum with another of these posts. Yes, I do believe that DE, Necrons, Inquisitation and tau need doing first but I do believe that we should not be forgotten!

If you don't like what you see in the OP, fine, just vote for no and don't spam this thread with hate mail.

Again I'm really sorry and I was pissed off so maybe we should just let this thread die:suicide:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

like so many of us, i can't really be bothered to rehash this same argument or even to read through it properly. most people know i'm not a fan of the current C:CSM, but i certainly don't think that that means that Chaos gets shat on from a great height or any other.

its not a very interesting codex and a lot more could have been done with it, but the truth is Chaos received two new codexes in relatively quick succession. and when you bear in mind the Warhammer Armies books for Warriors, Daemons and Beastmen, you realise that Chaos is really only second to Space Marines in terms of favourite faction amoungst the design team.

the current codex could be a lot better, but then it could also be a lot worse. for example, it could simply have all the equipment that the Space Marines have, making the whole codex redundant.



Masked Jackal said:


> The solution to some of these arguments, is daemon-engines.


a very good point. its one thing that i think GW really dropped the ball on. it would have been pretty easy to fit in Hellknights, doomwings and Bloodslaughters and that would have set the two armies quite far apart.



Barnster said:


> Chaos have drop pods, their called dreadclaws, and there availible from forge world.


not quite.

Dreadclaws are ship to ship assault pods. they originally appeared in BFG and have specail grappling claws and a ring of melta guns around their apature to allow quick disembarkation. they are very obviously not a ship to surface landing vessel as the door becomes unusable given the effects of gravity.

conversely Drop Pods are a ship to surface lander. and they are very well designed to do so (it they tried to fly ship to ship they would be significantly less sucessful).

both Loyalists and Chaos Marines have access to both Drop Pods and Dreadclaws. however, Dreadclaws are less common amongst the Loyalist Chapters and Drop Pods are less common amongst the Traitor Legions (i guess the Renegade Chapters would be more like the Loyalist Chapters than the Traitor Legions).

the confusion between the two started when FW made a model of the Dreadclaw, which being a collectors peice was hugely innapropriate in games. but GW and FW being the way they are decided that because people persisted in using it incorrectly, that they should re-write the rules so that it worked how people wanted it to work rather than how it was described in the background. (this probably also helped shift units).

it would have been nice to see Drop Pods in the CSM codex, but as they are less common than they are in Loyal chapters, it is not wholely out of character that they aren't present.



Barnster said:


> Scouts are no longer used by traitors, its a fluff reason, the closest they use are cultists this is one place i agree, they should have cultists as a cheap troop unit


i'm not sure there is a significant background reason as to why the Traitor Legions shouldn't have Scouts. as i understood it, it was simply a way of showing that the CSM were tougher than the SM and didn't use light troops.

personally, i'm not really in favour of including cultist troops in the CSM book. i think it would ba out of place. they may well use cultist armies to achieve certain objectives, but they don't fight alongside one another in any meaningful sense. it would be about as logical as including Guardsmen in the SM book. nevertheless, i'm willing to conceed that they are quite popular, so if they were going to be included i'd prefer to see them as a Heavy Support choice, as they are, after all, just going to be cannon fodder to protect your much more important CSM. and would you seriously trust cultists to hold an objective in battle?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

they did with the 4th ed codex but rumor has it the guys got sacked who wrote the 4th ed codex. so im hoping for new and great things for the next dex. Hopefully the people that write the next Chaos codex are allowed to cheese the army out. I dont want to hear bitching about that comment either. Look at the fucking Blood Angels codex. the damn thing might as well be a block of cheese.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

5tonsledge said:


> they did with the 4th ed codex but rumor has it the guys got sacked who wrote the 4th ed codex. so im hoping for new and great things for the next dex. Hopefully the people that write the next Chaos codex are allowed to cheese the army out. I dont want to hear bitching about that comment either. Look at the fucking Blood Angels codex. the damn thing might as well be a block of cheese.


Gav Thorpe? He wasn't sacked, he left GW as a Games Designer to become a full time novelist- he's done a fair few books for Black Library and just had his first independent book published.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Either way, Gav Thorpe ruined the Chaos Codex. He even attempted a half-arsed rebuttal to such claims, so I suppose even the ivory-tower dwelling GW employees know this as well.

Hopefully in round five we can get some justice.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I personally think that the CSM codex was broken on purpose, i think it is a long term strategy to expand the range in the future, Chaos in both systems is pack full of choice and even more so in 40k when you consider the separate marine legions and traitor armies, So i see a future with traitor legion codexes (like the chapter codex for marines) renegade guard codex and deamons as well as renegade marines, but as separate and distinct entities, i think this CSM codex as it stands is just a transitional/vanilla codex.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

Here in the warp, we got nothing but time. 

I think bitsandkits is right. I see them enhancing Daemon Hunters with new rules vs. daemons and daemonkin. It wouldn't do just to have power over Chaos Daemons, so after that I predict a new Chaos Legions Codex with new units that Daemon Hunters will have an advantage over.

As it stands now, I will keep painting up my Death Guard. Eventually we will get a new codex, and I will be prepared to dispense doom when that time comes.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Malgron said:


> As it stands now, I will keep painting up my Death Guard. Eventually we will get a new codex, and I will be prepared to dispense doom when that time comes.


Indeed, that is all we can do Brother.

On a side note, do you really think GW will put that much effort into it all? I mean, that would be fantastic, but is the future of Chaos to have that much fame?


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## bane-of-banes (Sep 9, 2010)

im pretty sure the absence of technological advances for Chaos was intentionally put there to provide their players with a more open opportunity to customise and add to their fluff. Simply because daemons in itself give off that very regressed type of feeling in terms of age, in simpler words, stereotypically speaking, they remind me of feudal times. What i see as their objective in leaving the CSMs with a very vague basis on what arsenal they have is to let the players go about with their own creation seeing as the most prominent weapon of chaos seems to be corruption. This practically boils down to the fact that any chaos aligned legion is able to 'corrupt' and 'abduct' a vehicle or any weapon for that matter. I hoped i helped but, yeah, thats just a simple a mon avis.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

its not so much intentionally left out, but more to do with fluff reasons, most warbands and legions have access to only pre-heresy tech which is more accessible then the newer imperial tech and any newer tech they would possess would be far to rare. So this is prob the main reason why we dont see it in the codex as there isnt enough of the new tech to justify it been included in the wargear lists. so its more down to fluff and trying to keep the armies as seperate as possible. well thats what i think anyway


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

In my oppinion the book sucks (I know you've heard it a million times.) and I was pretty pissed since I began playing with the previous incarnation of the Dex. Sure we have the "Best" Troops and Heavy support. But to be powerful we are straightlaced, sure many other armies are too, but none to this degree. Look at almost all the chaos lists posted here on the forum. Every comment is- "Drop so and so, add dual lash, oblits and plague marines. 

For the future, maybe keep the same units and idea, but add one or two daemon engines, and make the special characters a kind of army buffer like the SM are getting, for example Kharn allowes you to buff however many units of berzerkers, typhus makes FNP a 3+ or whatever that kind of idea, I really cant see gw making a codex for every traitor legion or even for the major ones.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

yes, but slaanesh likes being shat on.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> yes, but slaanesh likes being shat on.


Must be why Noise Marines' equipment costs so much.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> yes, but slaanesh likes being shat on.


/threadwin

I recently started building my Thousand Sons army from the C:CSM and I'll agree that there does seem to be a sense of not being quite finished, but at the same time there's plenty there to work with. One thing I like is that the player can build an army focusing on one or two aspects of Chaos, or can take the unified approach. I think C:CSM is heavier on fluff options than most, and while that may cause the army composition to suffer a little from a lack of focus, a good player can do an awful lot with what's there.

Don't agree, come play me


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