# Tournament Armies



## Brwrr (Jul 7, 2009)

I was wondering which armies are winning in the tournament scene? Are some doing better than others or are they fairly well balanced? Which wins more often than the others at the moment?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Brwrr said:


> I was wondering which armies are winning in the tournament scene? Are some doing better than others or are they fairly well balanced? Which wins more often than the others at the moment?


Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks and Chaos are four of the most successful armies right now. You'll find these four ranking very high in most serious events.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks and Chaos are four of the most successful armies right now. You'll find these four ranking very high in most serious events.


You should see my friends Chaos Daemon army, all Khorne. The standard infantry has Power weapons and inv save of 5. Not to mention you can run a mark bearer towards the enemy and deep-strike your army in. Also they are dirt cheap and have other benefits like having mass groups like orks. 

He is the top Chaos player in the state.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BiOHaTe said:


> You should see my friends Chaos Daemon army, all Khorne. The standard infantry has Power weapons and inv save of 5. Not to mention you can run a mark bearer towards the enemy and deep-strike your army in. Also they are dirt cheap and have other benefits like having mass groups like orks.


I play Daemons myself - I know exactly what you mean.


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## Shanny2 (Feb 17, 2010)

go imperial guard


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

those blood letters are nasty i once had 150 points to spend on allies with my csm army so i decided to use blood letter allies and they tore blood angels apart AND got me an objective


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I remember a year YEARS AGO when this DE player sweeped a major tournie. All he took was raiders and DE warriors, won every game.


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## timsmith (Nov 30, 2008)

The last few tournaments ive been 2 over here IG havent faired all that well. Where as Ork's are just brutal! I hate playing them, esspecially 4 battle waggon version. 

Katie was pretty spot on with the armies she has listed in her first post.

Sometimes it can depend on the points limit as well, IG are better at say 2500 ard boys than they are at a 1500 uk gt. 

Dont be fooled into thinking you cant do well with other armies tho.every army can be competetive, some just require more skill and practice with.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks *and Chaos* are four of the most successful armies right now. You'll find these four ranking very high in most serious events.


although Chaos players will deny it at every turn, otherwise it means they have to admit there codex can be used to win, which considering they have been moaning for years that its useless would be uncomfortable for them.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> although Chaos players will deny it at every turn, otherwise it means they have to admit there codex can be used to win, which considering they have been moaning for years that its useless would be uncomfortable for them.


Nobody argues that the Chaos Codex isn't competative. What they complain about is how bland it is and they are spot on.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

OddJob said:


> Nobody argues that the Chaos Codex isn't competative. What they complain about is how bland it is and they are spot on.


Well duh. Wouldn't it make sense that the forces of chaos are the most bland and vanilla group out there? For origionality and variation I'd expect to look to space manz or something.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

OddJob said:


> Nobody argues that the Chaos Codex isn't competative.


really??, nobody at all complains the chaos codex isn't competitive??, not a single person, not even there little finger??, pull the other one, next to it being bland thats one of the top complaints, usually made by allot of players who use the 2 lash 9 oblit list.


Cyklown said:


> Well duh. Wouldn't it make sense that the forces of chaos are the most bland and vanilla group out there? For origionality and variation I'd expect to look to space manz or something.


technically chaos should be the most varied force out there, but chaos players don't have a chaos codex, only a SPESS MAHREENS with spikes codex, if they had a proper chaos codex it would be as thick as 3 or 4 codex's


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> technically chaos should be the most varied force out there, but chaos players don't have a chaos codex, only a SPESS MAHREENS with spikes codex, if they had a proper chaos codex it would be as thick as 3 or 4 codex's


I suppose having a sarcasm smiley would defeat the entire point of sarcasm. It's a shame it translate so poorly to text.

Yes, I'd quite frankly expect the Eldar to have as many list variation options as Smurfs (you can template the astartes chapters variations: somethings scarslike, something sallylike, a ruleset for chapters that have taken nearly-unsurvivable losses. basing it as a standard codex with special character rules that change how the army works/change add troops options would make perfect sense). I'd be loath to lose EJB as troops, but having a Saim-Hann SC that gave all jetbikes skilled riders and all jetbikes+ vehicles scouts, a biel-tan sc that let you take a squad of aspect warriors as troops, an iyanden sc that made all warlocks spiritseers and perhaps gave your wraithguard squads the warlock for free (which still wouldn't make them cut it, honestly), would be spot on.

Chaos doesn't neccesarily need 4 books, but... the fact that they now have the variation of outmeal is suck. Being able to go cult, lose some things and then gain access to the relevant Chaos Demons as fast attack or something would be by itself amazing. I doubt you'll ever get the old dex (or equiv) back, but anything that rewarded you for having any sense of identity would be a good start.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Orks just got a small boost in the tournament scene.

Deffrolla's D6 S10 hits now work on vehicles as well as tank shock.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> really??, nobody at all complains the chaos codex isn't competitive??, not a single person, not even there little finger??, pull the other one, next to it being bland thats one of the top complaints, usually made by allot of players who use the 2 lash 9 oblit list.


Yes, I'm sure someone has, however your comment "_although Chaos players will deny it at every turn_" was astoundingly generalised to all chaos players, so turning around and saying this is a little contrary. He replied to your general accusation, so saying "yes, but at least some players have complained about it at some point" is a terrible comeback.

Anyway, in answer to your comment...

What I hear all the time is that chaos is very competitive.... but that so many units are not, that properly competitive armies are even more cookie cutter and restricted than even the bland book would normally allow. Possessed marines, Chaos dreads, daemons and so many of the other options just are never taken in most competitive setups. I hate that it's seen as the only way to take an army of cult marines, princes and oblits ect. ect.

And that's what people really hate about it. Not that it is uncompetitive, because it is a genuinely strong book. But it is made without balance in it's units, some choices are obviously better than others, and so all you ever bloodly well see are the same setups in power builds. Now, I don't play competitively, so it doesn't much matter to me, but I can see where those complaints come from - trying to make a competitive tzeenchian force, or a fluffy one god force is a difficult thing, so everyone just falls into the same ol' pattern. Boring.

This is something that applies to a number of armies, so don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a chaos only problem (necrons get it far worse), but considering the options that the old book allowed us, and that new codecies are giving armies to change the way their army works, you can see why some people might bitch about it.


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## obimoshman (Oct 21, 2009)

The ork deff rolla thing is just going to make Eldar plays all go mech since well u cant ram skimmers with tanks


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

obimoshman said:


> The ork deff rolla thing is just going to make Eldar plays all go mech since well u cant ram skimmers with tanks


You can, it's just that skimmers have a 66% chance of dodging the ramming vehicle and not taking any damage.

Besides, Eldar should being going mech anyway, otherwise they tend to suck and fail.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Besides, Eldar should being going mech anyway, otherwise they tend to suck and fail.


correction they should be going mech if you can't be assed to think to win


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

maddermax said:


> Yes, I'm sure someone has, however your comment "_although Chaos players will deny it at every turn_" was astoundingly generalised to all chaos players, so turning around and saying this is a little contrary. He replied to your general accusation, so saying "yes, but at least some players have complained about it at some point" is a terrible comeback.



To be honest, it's my fault for feeding the troll. I don't think I've ever seen a post of consequence from the eternally whining Stella.

I wish this forum had an ignore function.

-edit- Ha, the above post completely sums it up. Mental ignore engaged.
-edit edit- Stella happily pointed out that it does have such a function...missed that on my first pass. Thanks buddy.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Expect most Ork players to run battlewagon lists at 'ard boyz this year. If I had the meganobz and battlewagons to do such a thing, I know I would.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> correction they should be going mech if you can't be assed to think to win


You don't play competitively, so your opinion means absolutely nothing.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> You don't play competitively, so your opinion means absolutely nothing.


actually it does, just because I don't play competitively doesn't mean I don't know what it is and how to do it, I just chose not to because its not how I enjoy the game I'll have you know.

so yeah despite how much I know *you* hate me my opinion counts.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> so yeah despite how much I know *you* hate me my opinion counts.


I don't actually hate you, I just find your drivel irritating, especially when you insinuate that only those who don't think rely on mechanized armies to win games. 

Remember people - in the age of 5th edition, mech up or die!


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> Remember people - in the age of 5th edition, mech up or die!


Nevar! Well, not until a magic fairy brings me 300 dollars worth of Ork battlewagons, meganobz, and burnas, and then only in tournaments because of the time limit.

I love my green tide too much to bottle my boyz up unnecessarily.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

urg see, mech armies piss me off because they are intended to allow one to win capture and control type games. I don't like these games vs annihilation or hold the fort because they are kinda the equivalent of Olympic wrestling is to MMA. Mechs end up winning by out maneuvering you or just out armoring you, not necessarily out killing or even really beating you. It's like the little kung fu dude you see in the movie who no one can hit and he just slaps people. We all know in a real setting slapping won't do squat. I want my army to actually kill something.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Arcane said:


> I want my army to actually kill something.


Yeah, it is frustrating when your opponent refuses to come out of their transports and fight - that's why you do it to them before they can do it to you.  Or at least be equally meched up so that you're not spending the entire game chasing them around and getting shot down.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

whatever will a Tyranid player do, but anyway if you're going to be a competitive player you should brace for anything if your opponent mechs up and you didn't make sure you have enough weaponry to blow his mechs to pieces well then nutz to you. I always carry multiple vehicle smashing weaponry (My 1,500 guard boasts an amazing 30+ MLs).

I don't mind mechs because I either take mechs or something that can deal with mechs. Also you don't necessarily have to be one or fight one, you can still vary enough to take on hordes or be a horde. 

Variety is the spice of life.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

VanitusMalus said:


> whatever will a Tyranid player do,


Alpha-Strike heavy Tyranids that take full advantage of mycetic spores and the various ways that 'Nids can arrive on the battlefield. Mawlocs, Zoanthropes in spores, Lictors etc, are all pretty decent at helping the army deal with heavily mechanized foes.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Hive Guard are brilliant for taking down transports/light vehicles. Zoanthropes have the strongest weapon in the game so can tackle things like Land Raiders and Monoliths. To top it off, we have Heavy Venom Cannons to keep you still and Montrous Creatures to smash any vehicles that get too close.


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## SHarrington (Jan 7, 2010)

Agreed, GW threw the Tyranids a bone for dealing with Mech armies. 
They are a viable option, now, that can disrupt the supremacy of Mech. When your drop pods/trygons can deepstrike behind & shoot up a vehicle with consistency, you know you have a good thing. (I won't even mention all the actual anti-mech there is, like WLS did. No sense repeating it)

I'm hoping the Tyranid codex has enough oomph to it to disrupt the current competitive meta game trends. I doubt that Tyranids will be supremely competitive, but if they damage the Mech lists enough, other lists types will rise to power.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

SHarrington said:


> Agreed, GW threw the Tyranids a bone for dealing with Mech armies.
> They are a viable option, now, that can disrupt the supremacy of Mech.
> 
> I'm hoping the Tyranid codex has enough oomph to it to disrupt the current competitive meta game trends. I doubt that Tyranids will be supremely competitive, but if they damage the Mech lists enough, other lists types will rise to power.


I don't think a single Codex can disrupt the metagame enough to force people out of their metal boxes. Well... it _could_, it's just that the Codex would have to be amazing at killing vehicles and very average at dealing with infantry in order to be balanced.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I don't think a single Codex can disrupt the metagame enough to force people out of their metal boxes. Well... it _could_, it's just that the Codex would have to be amazing at killing vehicles and very average at dealing with infantry in order to be balanced.


Would be good if it could.
Would make my dual lash army even more effective.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I don't think a single Codex can disrupt the metagame enough to force people out of their metal boxes. Well... it _could_, it's just that the Codex would have to be amazing at killing vehicles and very average at dealing with infantry in order to be balanced.



DE can do this well with lance spam, you just have to get a large group of people to switch to DE in the GT (at least 30), and then tell all to lance spam.

This could solve the problem of vehicle spam although DE do this via vehicle spam sorta ironic


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I would say the right Eldar army could be quite devastating. If CSM got a improved version of the codex they have now... well there would at least be less complaining about it. lol
and SM chapter codexes are becoming a little bland. There's just those times when GW seems to say screw balance and whip out something crazy ( Space puppy dex)


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> I don't think a single Codex can disrupt the metagame enough to force people out of their metal boxes.


Dual lash changed it enough in 4th to force people into their metal boxes...


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> DE can do this well with lance spam, you just have to get a large group of people to switch to DE in the GT (at least 30), and then tell all to lance spam.
> 
> This could solve the problem of vehicle spam although DE do this via vehicle spam sorta ironic


What do with swarm armies though ;F


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

OddJob said:


> Dual lash changed it enough in 4th to force people into their metal boxes...


But there was already a significant advantage to mech, it was just a question of how many troops you got and who was equiped for what. And then glances started doing almost nothing to vehicles and vehicles started getting cover saves.

Additionally, the mech switchover tends to have a runaway effect. Some of Eldar's best anti-transport fire comes from waveserpents (since anything else either doesn't have range, doesn't have reliability or is possible to annihilate quickly if you're willing to do not much else), and the objective-based nature of the game started making manuverability and the survival of certain units _that you didn't neccesarily even particularly want_ (see also: DAVU, etc.) took their toll.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hmmmm.... Heres my take, mind you never played a Tourny but watch and read enough Tourny events and outcomes to come to some conclusions.

First Chaos does well (The Dex is broken as their is almost no options but one Cookie cutter list) becuase of the all famous list of 2 Lash DPs, PMs in Rhinos, and Oblits out the ass. You have MCs that move units of objectives and into fire, the toughest troops around to kill, and the best Long Range in the Game!

Eldar does well thanks to there Jetbikes, Skimmers, and Seer Council Jetbike Squad. They win alot thanks to moving across the board in 1 turn, giving cover saves for their Skimmers, Tank Shocking others off Objectives, and being able to shoot and move help too. Then the all powerful Seer Bike lists means you have reroll to saves of 3+/4+, Witch Blades that bust vehicles with ease, with Destructors out the ass to fry the contents of the vehicle to a crisp, and can move all over the table to attack anywhere.

Orcs, well thanks to the new FAQ they have mutiple competitive list. Nob Bikers List, killa Kan/Dread Lists, Green Tide Lists, and now the uber dreaded Deff Rolla Battle Wagon Lists. Lets face it, they can do it all, Nob Bikers and Battle Wagon Lists being the most dominating. I think now they are second best myself with the varied competitive lists their Dex allows and its good to see Orks ontop of the 40k Food Chain.

Now we have Nids which will without a doubt be Tourny Dominating. First off they have the CC master Swarm Lord who could possibly take a Nightbringer out. You have the Zoas in Spores that Deepstrike with there outrages Str 10 Lance. You have the Doom of Bullshitrules that may change the whole scene of Tourny play like the twin Lash lists have. This Unit will allow mutli wound monster that can "possibly" kill troops in transports which means Mech List are now null and void. The Trygon is also a huge opponet to beat. Then finaly the Tervigons means a never ending swarm of Gaunts with special abilities. Yes boys and Girls expect to see Nids dominating this year Tournies till something from BAs or whatever else comes out with something (if anything) and beats it.


This is just my thoughts.


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## Brwrr (Jul 7, 2009)

Are you guys talking about chaos space marines or chaos daemons or both together? Battlewagons is the best way to run orks now? Is green tide tourney strong or no? Also, guard is mechanized, right? I guess I'm asking if you could be a little more specific on the armies, such as how they are generally set up. Maybe what makes that army strong?


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Hmmmm.... Heres my take, mind you never played a Tourny but watch and read enough Tourny events and outcomes to come to some conclusions.


Most of what you state is reasonable until...



Warlock in Training said:


> [*baby tears*] Waaagh, Tyranids stole my lunch money, waaaagh. [/*baby tears*]


...or at least, words to that effect. Relax. The new nids havn't broken any game systems yet and probably aren't going to. 

When you admit to not being part of the competitive scene yet make such hyperbolic predictions about it you look a little silly.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

OddJob said:


> When you admit to not being part of the competitive scene yet make such hyperbolic predictions about it you look a little silly.


Me? Silly :laugh:

I love to do a Tourny :alcoholic:, but sadly I dont have the time as of yet.

I :cray: a little about the Doom, hes used in 90% of games and in those hes played to effect troops in transports leads to the Nid Player winning. I have not as of yet online or in person seen that unit lose a match with those rules. Its gamebreaking to me. Everything else in the Dex is beattable. I mean not to cry about it, but being the newest dex means it has the best chance of winning tourneys cause no ones knows a solid way to tailor a list to take it yet. Its a Uknown with, powerful units and I put it at #1 till tourny results come in. Most of those units are uber usefull, and the only race that can compete in Competitive Builds and character is the Orks. 

Im done whinning about it. DE hopefully come out and I can get my new race soon. Chaos is getting too demanding. Khorn lsays "build me a army." I say okay. Slannesh calls now and money is poured into that build. Now Nurgles ugly ass is looking good. WTF!


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I beat a Nid player last week who had Doom in his army. From what I encountered I don't think that the codex is overpowered in any way it just throws up so new challenges to over come. The fact that instant death is a problem for Nids now is quite helpful and makes units of Warrioirs and Zoans and such like easier to deal with than before. Also no more without number has stopped the small gaunt unit by the board edge keeping it's mit's on an objective for ever.

The stuff popping out of terrain is anoying and upsetting but not so bad if you are in a nice cosey metal box, with padded seating.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lash Machine said:


> I beat a Nid player last week who had Doom in his army. From what I encountered I don't think that the codex is overpowered in any way it just throws up so new challenges to over come. The fact that instant death is a problem for Nids now is quite helpful and makes units of Warrioirs and Zoans and such like easier to deal with than before. Also no more without number has stopped the small gaunt unit by the board edge keeping it's mit's on an objective for ever.
> 
> The stuff popping out of terrain is anoying and upsetting but not so bad if you are in a nice cosey metal box, with padded seating.



Was he DS the guy next to 2 or 3 Transports and use its power to kill the Infatry inside? Cause thats what Im talking about. I have seen the Doom make little difference if people play him wrong or dont play him affecting Troops in Transports. Otherwise hes determins the game. Just saying from what I observed. Also the Nid Warriors are ez to kill with instant death, however other units like Hive Gaurd who cant die unless the weapon/abilty bestows ID. So again their really powerful critters. Not gamebreaking just better than most, exception to SW, Orks, IG, and anyother 5th ed Dex. :so_happy:


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Arcane said:


> urg see, mech armies piss me off because they are intended to allow one to win capture and control type games. I don't like these games vs annihilation or hold the fort because they are kinda the equivalent of Olympic wrestling is to MMA. Mechs end up winning by out maneuvering you or just out armoring you, not necessarily out killing or even really beating you. It's like the little kung fu dude you see in the movie who no one can hit and he just slaps people. We all know in a real setting slapping won't do squat. I want my army to actually kill something.


Well that's how Mech lists work, so what else do you expect. I could say something similar about Infantry-heavy lists..
they're Rock, Paper, Scissors lists that only win by taking more Troops that you can kill...where's the Tactics in that. Plus they take far too long to move anywhere and are awkward when doing so. In Capture & Control they're mind-numbingly boring to play against, but maybe that's one Tactic they have - put the enemy player to sleep.

Oh, and my Mech list ends up killing plenty of the enemy...usually Infantry lists.:victory:


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## TheGrunt (Feb 5, 2010)

HOBO FTW!!! :victory: 

I love my guard gunline for the character of it, and I love my mech, for the character of it. I like the idea of a bunch of normal humans holding the line against alien monstrosities, it's just cool. I also love the Steel Legion feel of a mech company, and have since way back in 3rd when there was no way to win with them consistently.

All that said, my mech is a.) more fun to play, and b.) more competitive. I prefer a game where things are moving quickly enough that you have to plan several turns ahead. One of my favorite lists to play against is mechdar, for just that reason. It's more of a fencing match than a bar fight. 

BUT, to each their own. I have seen both types of army do well, and I love when people branch out and try new stuff. Seeing the gentlemen at the doubles tourney last week fill a 1' by 6' portion of table with greenskins and still having 30 boys in reserve was inspiring!


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