# Librarians and the Council of Nikea



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Librarians, one of the more flavorful of the various space marines HQ units. I was rereading A Thousand Sons and I got to the council of Nikea. I must not have been reading it very closely last time because when I read the actual judgement of the Emperor. He FORBIDS the use of any psychic powers and orders all librarians back into their legions never to use their abilities again. This is against everything I had remembered from previous fluff where the council ended in the Librarian Compromise. Now the space wolves rune priests are just as out of favor as Ahriman himself if they use their powers. Now I don't know what the authors of the heresy series plan to do but this was the edict of the LIVING Emperor, how can there even be librarians in 40k? He was pretty direct that he would lay the psychic smack down on anyone who disobeyed him. Is this just an error in an otherwise awesome book or am I missing something?


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm sure you're missing something, as we all are. From Lexicanum:



> The Emperor's decree following the Council of Nikaea banned the use of psychic powers, demanding the systematic dismantling of all Legion's psychic corps and redistribute them back into the battle companies as standard troops. Further, the Emperor threatened any who contravened his order with heavy censor and summary destruction.10
> How this decree was amended Post-Heresy has not been unveiled.


So somewhere Librarians came back into fashion.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

I think it has something to do with guilliman, i remember in "know no fear" he or someone close to him remarks that the edict of Nikea took away their primary weapon (to fight the warp) i.e. the librarians, so he might have, with the emperors blessing put down into his codex that librarians are allowed


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

That was what I thought but....
"Henceforth no Legion will maintain a librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psych powers"
page 168 a thousand sons


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> That was what I thought but....
> "Henceforth no Legion will maintain a librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ psych powers"
> page 168 a thousand sons


Yes and then the Emperor goes upon his throne, and who knows what happens. An age of supposed enlightenment with the worshipping of gods does a 360, and suddenly that corpse finds himself known as the God-Emperor, and it becomes an even grimmer dark future. 

We don't know why Librarians are allowed, and it could be as a result of further refinement of the Codex, which came after the Heresy. 

Maybe they thought they needed Librarians. Maybe they realized that while something like the Thousand Sons might be not a good idea, having some Librarians can be useful. Hopefully we eventually learn why.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Both Guilliman and The Lion in the recent novels are shown to disregard the Edict and reinstate their Librarians. Well Guilliman thinks about doing so, but the Lion does entirely. Corax also orders one of his former Librarians to do so as well. The Heresy makes it clear to most of the loyalist Primarchs that the Librarians are needed. And from Guillimans words in _Know No Fear_ it looks like he's the one who will fully rescind the Edict once the Heresy is over.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok, so every primarch sort of backslid into using them more or less when the heresy began. I haven't read Know no fear yet so I guess that sort of solves the problem. Just strikes me as odd that instead of just using the preexisting fluff about the librarians (outlaw sorcery, librarians are ok) they did it this way. Certainly not for clarity's sake that's for sure


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Better this way though imo. Allowing Librarians but banning 'Sorcery' would cause too many grey areas, individuals potentially crossing the line or standing very close to it etc.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Better this way though imo. Allowing Librarians but banning 'Sorcery' would cause too many grey areas, individuals potentially crossing the line or standing very close to it etc.


A fair point but this was what I liked, that knife's edge between sanctioned powers and sorcery. It leads to corruption being more of a slippery slope and less of an "I IZ EVIL NOW!" thing. That every use brings a Librarian closer to the corruption he is sworn to fight. It made the Black Templar's hatred of psykers more understandable and their refusal to use librarians actually reasonable. This way it seems to underplay that danger. With the Primarchs just ignoring it (the edict) its sort of renders the judgment moot, since without that distinction between sorcery and sanctioned psychic powers was what made the emperor's judgment make sense. Now he's essentially saying "Psychic powers are evil...Unless you are an astropath....or a navigator....or most of all ME" And then all his kids go off and ignore him anyway :shok:


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I'd assume his kids don't ignore at first, and it makes Magnus' "betrayal" that much sweeter in my mind.

Psykers still aren't approved of. You'll be hunted down, and either sacrificed to the Astronomican or if you're lucky might actually be able to develope your talents.


And Librarians can still be viewed with suspicion, even in the Chapters they reside in, and some Chapters don't trust them to begin with and so don't make use of them. 

I'd say its more like recognizing Librarians are a necessary evil. This didn't happen overnight.

According to Lexicanum, in the Salamanders novel the Salamanders explained to the Marines Malevolent that they felt the Edict was outdated.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

COMPNOR said:


> Psykers still aren't approved of. You'll be hunted down, and either sacrificed to the Astronomican or if you're lucky might actually be able to develope your talents.
> 
> 
> And Librarians can still be viewed with suspicion, even in the Chapters they reside in, and some Chapters don't trust them to begin with and so don't make use of them..


Granted, bad choice of wording on my part. Psykers have always bothered me in 40k. So necessary and yet totally marginalized. Hence why I have issues with this whole Librarian thing. It's one thing for the Emperor outlaw sorcery, demons, and pacts. It is entirely another to basically condemn some of the psykers (librarians) but is cool with the ones he needs (astropaths and navgators). This just smacks of blatant stupidity while the prohibition on sorcery and contacting warp forces just makes sense.


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## Dînadan (Mar 7, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> A fair point but this was what I liked, that knife's edge between sanctioned powers and sorcery. It leads to corruption being more of a slippery slope and less of an "I IZ EVIL NOW!" thing. That every use brings a Librarian closer to the corruption he is sworn to fight. It made the Black Templar's hatred of psykers more understandable and their refusal to use librarians actually reasonable. This way it seems to underplay that danger. With the Primarchs just ignoring it (the edict) its sort of renders the judgment moot, since without that distinction between sorcery and sanctioned psychic powers was what made the emperor's judgment make sense. Now he's essentially saying "Psychic powers are evil...Unless you are an astropath....or a navigator....or most of all ME" And then all his kids go off and ignore him anyway :shok:


Actually, the Primarch's didn't just all go off and ignore him (other than Magnus, Russ and Alpharius/Omegon - Magnus because he thought he knew better; Russ because he saw the Rune Priests as different to sorcerers and Alpharius and Omegon because Librarians were a crucial part to their methods of infiltrating the other Legions). Guilliman (in No Know Fear) and the Lion (in The Primarchs) only question the edict because of the dire circumstances they face in those particular books. The traitor Primarchs who ignore the edict after the outbreak of the Heresy don't really count as they're rebeling anyway - what difference does one more ignored law make?


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> Granted, bad choice of wording on my part. Psykers have always bothered me in 40k. So necessary and yet totally marginalized. Hence why I have issues with this whole Librarian thing. It's one thing for the Emperor outlaw sorcery, demons, and pacts. It is entirely another to basically condemn some of the psykers (librarians) but is cool with the ones he needs (astropaths and navgators). This just smacks of blatant stupidity while the prohibition on sorcery and contacting warp forces just makes sense.


Different views I guess. I see the "We're ok with Astropaths and Navigators" again as a ncessary evil. That if the Emperor could get away without them he would. Didn't the Outcast Dead, when they were at the Astropath city have like a regiment of Guard who were there to basically ensure Astropaths didn't get too far out of line? 

While some might be able to gain influence, for the most part they strike me as tools, and nothing more. To be discarded when no longer of use. So to me, the Edict isn't stretching or contradicting anything.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

COMPNOR said:


> if you're lucky might actually be able to develope your talents.


If you've read the end of _Only in Death_, you may change your mind on the 'lucky' part of that statement.

On topic, I think that the Edict was just another mistake the Emperor made in the running of the Imperium. In my opinion, the Edict of Nikea shouldn't have happened - Librarians could have been vital in the Great Crusade, especially after the results of Magnus' duel with the Revenant Titans to show how powerful Psychic powers could be.

Midnight


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

A fair number of Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords have psychic powers, as does the Paternoval Envoy of the High Lords of Terra. And the master of the adeptus astra telepathica, also a high lord. They have power and a larger voice in the imperium than cannon fodder should. 
At the thrust of my argument is basically Midnight's point, that psykers are needed and should be used, and that the refluffing of the librarian question makes the whole thing a bit stupid. I get that every psyker has suspicion on him just for what he is but for the Emperor (in this new version) to say yes to everything but psykers, and presumably also imperial guard psykers, is not only a bad ruling but it makes his son's decision to ignore it, russ before and everyone else after the heresy, look like they are betraying one of the last ruling big E gave before his internment on the throne. Seems like after seeing the heresy, all the chaotic sorcery and such, the remaining primarchs would if anything have been even harsher on psykers and adhered more closely to the edict and not reinstated them. just seems like a case of did not do the research really


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I would think as Guilliman saw that Librarians were necessary in fighting the Warp, and becoming the successor to the Emperor, I would not see any problems on his behalf with reinstating them with the codex coming into effect.  Black Templars, on that subject, do NOT trust psykers in any form and edict to the decree still in 40k.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> Psykers have always bothered me in 40k. So necessary and yet totally marginalized. Hence why I have issues with this whole Librarian thing. It's one thing for the Emperor outlaw sorcery, demons, and pacts. It is entirely another to basically condemn some of the psykers (librarians) but is cool with the ones he needs (astropaths and navgators). This just smacks of blatant stupidity while the prohibition on sorcery and contacting warp forces just makes sense.


This sort of hypocrisy has always been a key part of the Imperium (at least theme wise). Witches are to be burned, except you need them for communications and other very useful things. Mutants are to be executed, except you need them for travel and they make good cheap labour. The Ecclesiarchy can't have an army, except the Sisters of Battle. And so on. 

Plus, at the time of Nikea no one was really aware of how deep down the rabbit hole the TS already were. To most outsiders they seemed like a Legion of Librarians, no one realized that they were already summoning daemons and the like. So if the Eddict was to have the drastic effect on them that it did it needed to outlaw how they were currently acting (in public). Banning sorcery (which is basically consorting with warp entities) was a no-brainer and wouldn't have forced the TS to return to Prospero and re-evaluate their entire existence.



SonofMalice said:


> Seems like after seeing the heresy, all the chaotic sorcery and such, the remaining primarchs would if anything have been even harsher on psykers and adhered more closely to the edict and not reinstated them. just seems like a case of did not do the research really


An untrained psyker is a far greater risk than a sanctioned one, this is why the sanctioning takes place. By forcing the Librariums to disband you are removing any chance psyker-Marines have of receiving training and thus leaving them an easily exploitable gate-way for Chaos. The Librarians are not only one of the most potent weapons Marines possess against Chaos (directly) they are also the only means they have of protecting themselves from the threat of Chaos taint (both in themselves and others).


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## Callistarius (Aug 17, 2010)

In that part of Know No Fear dealing with the Nikaea edict, Guilliman theorises that there may have been some manipulation of the whole Council in order to achieve the banning of the Librarians. Given that part of the initial Librarian program involved Word Bearers chaplians overseeing and providing reports on the Librarians, I think it is safe to assume this manipulation was from the Word Bearers. 

The planning and seeds of the Heresy appear to go further back than I first thought...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Callistarius said:


> The planning and seeds of the Heresy appear to go further back than I first thought...


Considering they were planning it for around 40 years it doesn't come as a suprise.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering they were planning it for around 40 years it doesn't come as a suprise.


In the case of the Magnus and Russ, even further back than that arguably.


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

> If you've read the end of Only in Death, you may change your mind on the 'lucky' part of that statement.


I was being facetious. 



> At the thrust of my argument is basically Midnight's point, that psykers are needed and should be used


But they are used. They are tools to be used and discarded. And it only got worse I'd say as time progressed. The Inquisition didn't form until basically after the Heresy. 

And following it, I'd say his sons realized that Librarians can be of some use. It's not really a betrayal. It's more like daddy isn't in charge anymore, he made some mistakes, and we will do as me must. I don't think any of the survivors felt he was infallible.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

COMPNOR said:


> But they are used. They are tools to be used and discarded. And it only got worse I'd say as time progressed. The Inquisition didn't form until basically after the Heresy.
> 
> And following it, I'd say his sons realized that Librarians can be of some use. It's not really a betrayal. It's more like daddy isn't in charge anymore, he made some mistakes, and we will do as me must. I don't think any of the survivors felt he was infallible.


See, its that word Discarded that bothers me. They don't "Discard" Grey Knights (created by the Emperor as the extent of the heresy became known, also technically against his own edict. Yes I understand they are incorruptible but by the LETTER of the law...) or Astropaths, or Navigators, or Imperial guard Primus Psykers or Pskyer Inquisitors. The reverse is true, they NURTURE them. Think of all the time they put into training a grey knight (who has to be a powerful latent psyker upon induction), or an Inquisitor. The Navigators are theoretically the most powerful group in the ENTIRE Imperium since only they can make long warp trips. Same for the Astropaths. 

My point here is that by saying and I quote "I understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not
for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be. The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals."
He is by necessity also condemning anyone who uses psychic powers except himself. If a PRIMARCH, his own son, or an astartes, his own creation, is getting told that they can't handle the truth then not only Librarians but logically every psyker should be forced to step down. But they aren't. 

I get that Big E makes mistakes (more than believable for a being of his ability and supposed wisdom) but this just does not compute with me. Either he damns all psykers to never use their powers (literal interpretation), only the librarians (and then his sons either revert/ignore him when it becomes convenient/necessary), or is a total idiot and does not understand his own actions and the hideous irony of the most powerful psyker in the Imperium telling the next most powerful and all those trained by him (and the other librarians) to NOT use their powers because they can't handle it and then getting into his ship and using a navigator to WARP AWAY. 
Big E why you no use brain?


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Your mistake is that most of these Psykers that are "revered" come AFTER the Heresy. After the damage has been done. 



> The Emperor foresaw that the Heresy would likely end at such a great personal cost to himself that he would be prevented from actively defending mankind from the great threat of Chaos and its Daemons. So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil. Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden.


You're problem as I see it is you're confusing the past with the present. At the time of the Edict, for the most part everyone does stand down. And I'd say outside of the Emperor and his few sons, there are few notabe Psykers that are being nutured. This is a time when the Emperor is denying Chaos. Didn't Horus himself not really know what Chaos was in the first book? Or was that one of the Captains?

So then we get the Edict, and then the Heresy happens and then all things fall apart. The Emperor creates the Grey Knights to take his place as defenders, his sons realize Librarians can be of some use, 10k years pass and we now see all manner of psykers being used. But even those being nutured aren't free from suspicion. You still have those who won't work them.



> NOT use their powers because they can't handle it and then getting into his ship and using a navigator to WARP AWAY.


As someone else pointed out, its the hypocrisy of the 40K universe. Do as I say not as I do. Personally the hardline stance makes walking the line so much more enjoyable. I think things would be rather boring if he accepted the use of pskyers like Librarians openly.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I grant you the hypocrisy for certain. I guess what I am looking for is a concrete statement from big E after the heresy starts to the effect of "My bad, totally ok with Librarians now" in much the same way as he confers the right to bear the aquila on all loyal space marines and not just the Emperor's Children. 

Yes, I am aware of the timeline and that the GK are created (along with the Inquisition) after the heresy has been revealed but what I am asking (and becoming more certain is something yet to be written) is if the law is still OFFICIALLY on the books. E said it and his word=law. Twist and turn with hypocrisy as the Imperium might he was painfully clear of what his intentions were. If he never reascends it then how do all the things I mention (GK's, Inquisitors etc) come to be accepted at the highest level? Even the Black Templars gladly fight on the side of the GKs and they are all psykers (trusted and such but still). If he DOES reascend it then all the prejudice against Librarians in 40k, not 30k, makes no bloody sense since they have been rubber stamped as acceptable. Yeah spooky, yeah they can fall to chaos but so can every one else. Hypocrisy is one thing, blissfully disregarding your god (emperor) and reversing his judgement is HERESY


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> I grant you the hypocrisy for certain. I guess what I am looking for is a concrete statement from big E after the heresy starts to the effect of "My bad, totally ok with Librarians now" in much the same way as he confers the right to bear the aquila on all loyal space marines and not just the Emperor's Children.
> 
> Yes, I am aware of the timeline and that the GK are created (along with the Inquisition) after the heresy has been revealed but what I am asking (and becoming more certain is something yet to be written) is if the law is still OFFICIALLY on the books. E said it and his word=law. Twist and turn with hypocrisy as the Imperium might he was painfully clear of what his intentions were. If he never reascends it then how do all the things I mention (GK's, Inquisitors etc) come to be accepted at the highest level? Even the Black Templars gladly fight on the side of the GKs and they are all psykers (trusted and such but still). If he DOES reascend it then all the prejudice against Librarians in 40k, not 30k, makes no bloody sense since they have been rubber stamped as acceptable. Yeah spooky, yeah they can fall to chaos but so can every one else. Hypocrisy is one thing, blissfully disregarding your god (emperor) and reversing his judgement is HERESY


With regards to the Grey Knights, they were formed by the Emperor himself. So whether or not the Edict still holds, he can basically do what he wants. So I don't really see the Grey Knights violating. The Emperor himself admits Psykers have use(Navigators/Astropaths), so if he gives it the Rubber Stamp of Approval its kosher.

But I refer you back to my first post. At this time, we don't know how it went from A to B. We just know that it does. And I don't think you'd be able to find a statement from the Emperor following the Heresy, unless it was like a last will thing. Didn't he basically go right upon the Golden Throne following his battle?


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I meant after it starts but before the end. Somewhere in that 6 or 7 year gap they have created fluff wise between Horus falling and the battle of Terra.

You are right about the GK, I do understand that they are rather special snowflakes . 

It's still irritating to me that this change was introduced because it took something nice and neat with no hint of hypocrisy (no sorcery/seeking power from unknown entities) and made it muddled for no explained reason. Worse it makes Magnus' fall even more inevitable and the Space Wolves look like even bigger A**holes than they did before since THEIR rune priests are "special" and so aren't disbanded. 
Oh well, tis late. Good jousting with you!


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

But the fall of Magnus was always inevitable. And this I think makes it much cleaner. He was basically told No, no more. He gets wind of the Heresy, and makes a gamble, hoping his father will understand his transgression to bring him this information. Only it totally ruins the Emperor's plans, and he then has no choice but to send Russ after him.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> I guess what I am looking for is a concrete statement from big E after the heresy starts to the effect of "My bad, totally ok with Librarians now" in much the same way as he confers the right to bear the aquila on all loyal space marines and not just the Emperor's Children.


You're unlikely to find such a statement, simply because (as you point out) this is a recent change to the fluff and they haven't gotten around to that point in time (just pre-fall of Emperor) yet.



> If he never reascends it then how do all the things I mention (GK's, Inquisitors etc) come to be accepted at the highest level?


Because they are necessary. The Imperium as it currently stands learned long ago that it had to grit its teeth and do things the Emperor didn't want to do, just in order to survive. They use Exterminatus on human worlds, something that appears to be without precedent when Horus does it. They use psykers as some of their highest officers because they have to. The Emperor may be god but few enough people remember that he ever actually existed, let alone what he told them they could or couldn't do. 



> If he DOES reascend it then all the prejudice against Librarians in 40k, not 30k, makes no bloody sense since they have been rubber stamped as acceptable.


People have always, and will always, fear that which they don't understand. Psykers have access to a dimension beyond reality, to powers beyond imagination. They are different and they are dangerous and thus they are feared, distrusted and even hated. 



> Hypocrisy is one thing, blissfully disregarding your god (emperor) and reversing his judgement is HERESY


And yet the very statement of calling him a God then would be heresy. If you recall he specifically forbids worship of him, yet the Ecclesiarchy is one of the most powerful bodies in the Imperium these days. If your God declares himself to be not a god, either he's wrong (in which case he's not infallible so you're free to disregard other things he says) or he's right (in which case disobeying him isn't heresy) but either way you get enough wiggle room to throw out other edicts.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> I grant you the hypocrisy for certain. I guess what I am looking for is a concrete statement from big E after the heresy starts to the effect of "My bad, totally ok with Librarians now" in much the same way as he confers the right to bear the aquila on all loyal space marines and not just the Emperor's Children.


It wasn't "his bad" though, the Nikaean Edict was perfectly logical given the situation at the time. The omnipresent fear/hatred/suspicion of psykers needed to be addressed, as did the constant reports of Magnus's _excesses_ shall we call it. The Emperor knew the inherent danger that psykers posed to the Imperium and his plans - let us not forget that the wider Imperium (even at Primarch-level) blamed the Age of Strife on Psykers. The Imperium could live without Librarians and active psykers (but of course not without astropaths, navigators and the like - which is where the very intentional hypocrisy comes from), or at least that was what was thought at the time. Quite simply, the Emperor deemed it too risky.



SonofMalice said:


> but what I am asking (and becoming more certain is something yet to be written) is if the law is still OFFICIALLY on the books. E said it and his word=law.


We don't know for certain, but it seems not. The assumption is that the Edict was receded at some point during or post-Heresy. This is supported by the fact that Guilliman realised the necessity of Librarians during the Calth War as did the Lion during the Heresy as well.



SonofMalice said:


> If he never reascends it then how do all the things I mention (GK's, Inquisitors etc) come to be accepted at the highest level?


Simple: necessity.



SonofMalice said:


> If he DOES reascend it then all the prejudice against Librarians in 40k, not 30k, makes no bloody sense since they have been rubber stamped as acceptable.


Of course it makes sense, psykers are still heavily mistrusted/feared/hated in 40k - just realised as a necessary evil.



SonofMalice said:


> It's still irritating to me that this change was introduced because it took something nice and neat with no hint of hypocrisy (no sorcery/seeking power from unknown entities) and made it muddled for no explained reason.


Take into account that the novel _A Thousand Sons_ did *not* alter the lore in this regard, merely clarified it. The disbandment of the Librarius departments amongst the Legions is cited in several sources many years before _A Thousand Sons_ was released (notably in the _CV_). But some old sources also claimed that just sorcery was banned. The lore on Nikaea was ambiguous before _A Thousand Sons_. But if you think about it, simply banning sorcery would have been illogical for many reasons: it would not have calmed fears or satisfied demands as psychic abilities would have still been widely employed, the line between psychic ability and sorcery is heavily blurred so the Thousand Sons could have easily continued to practise sorcery whilst justifying it legally by claiming it was simply psychic ability, the danger of widespread psykers would have still been present - essentially if the Nikaean Edict simply banned sorcery it wouldn't have solved anything and matters would have inevitably came to a head again.


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