# Havocs or Oblits: Who's better?



## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I know obliterators are better all around. No argument there. However I'm wondering who is better for *long ranged* fire.

I've noticed that when I bring oblits it's for the 48'' lascannon shots and rarely do I use any of the shorter ranged weapons. I usually bring melta raptors and princes to go take down things at close range.

I started to wonder today which would be better. I can get a 5 man havoc squad in a rhino with 1 missile and 1 auto for the same amount of points as 2 obliterators. I would have 3 shots instead of 2 however they would be a weaker strength. I could then take a second missile launcher or autocannon furthering the number of shots from that squad for only a few more points.

Since AV12 tends to be the trickiest to deal with when it comes to transports let's focus on them. Do you think 2 obliterators or havocs with 2-3 heavy weapons is better? I would attempt to deal with land raiders and other heavily armed vehicles with my melta raptors so no need to bring them into the argument. I'm really just focuses on tranport and AV12 popping potential.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Havocs with autocannon would definately be a choice for the heavy support, seing as they bring ablative bodies - whereas the obliterator suffers under a pathetic weakness: Being able to be instant-killed by something as common as a missile launcher. Granted, they have their 2-up save. But force enough wounds on a T4 model, and it will fail one. Fail that one, and it is gone. Obliterators are also fairly pricy for a single lascannon. 2 Obliterators are 150 points, whereas an auto-las predator is 145, I believe - Bringing AV13, and 2 autocannon shots as well as 2 lasannon shots being overall more durable. 

Overall, the best Chaos option for Long Range Fire Support, which we so desperately need is in the Predator. Havocs are awesome with their autocannons, but they can become quite costly. It saddens me to say that the day of people just plunking on 9 obliterators are over - because I like the Obliterator. I really enjoy the concept. But people must realize that Chaos suffers through the fact that we are a watered down shell of what we could be. We require some ranged support in concordance with our other troops - And the obliterators are mostly brought for that. And for that, they are sub-par.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

alright someone who is like me. youre right a close combat army dosent need oblits. I have 9 oblits but dont use them because i take havocs with autocannons on foot, or lascannons. the primary job of the havocs is to kill transports so that the rest of my army can lash and assualt the shit inside. plus my troops and my daemon princes are capable to kill heavy things like AV13 and up. So havocs are nice in that aspect.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Well, C:CSM isn't really a close combat army per sé. Sure, you could build straight out for close combat - but that really isn't where we dominate. Sure, it is where we might delve the finishing strike - but our strength is elsewhere. We are a midfield army, much like our furry brethren and the cowards in blue. Had Berzerkers had some form of melta, perhaps we could go that route, as it stands they are sub-par. 

5man Plague Marine squads in rhinoes coupled with 5man noise marine squads with full sonic blasters make for a decent troop core, most definately. We gain a fabulous torrent of fire through the Noise Marines and the dual melta plague marines with T5 and FNP are definately something our opponent will struggle with. 

Lash is sadly, as awesome as the power sounds - whispering seducing thoughts into your opponents mind etc - not that good of a power. Not since people learned to adapt. It can and will be easily shut down through either torrenting down your daemon prince with missiles/long range fire or simply shutting him down with hoods or runic staves. From our HQ section, I am honestly confused about what to bring. I believe perhaps Sorcerers might be a good addition, although they also greatly suffer through the psychic hood dilemma - they can at least hide in squads. Daemon Princes aren't bad, per sé, but they are easily dealt with. 

So adding to what I have said, plague mareins with dual melta for tank hunting and not dying, noise marines to torrent the infantry that arrives from those tanks. What else do we require? Considering plague marines are rhinoed up, that's another thing to factor in. 
We could go with Havocs. We could, indeed. It would be a good choice, with maxed out autocannons - adding some terrific vehicle suppression. But that can be found elsewhere in our force organisation chart. Namely- Chaos Dreadnoughts. Playing the rule as it is written, namely that the Line of Sight when it goes batshit for shooting is drawn at 45* from the barrel of the weapons etc, not 360* around, makes them a decent - if unreliable - choice. Twin autocannon and missile launcher is a good option. That leaves heavy support. Here, we want some more tank cracking now that suppression is deal with in Elites. Predators is the answer, really. The Lascannons coupled with the autocannon should be a good answer for the what the enemy hides in (METAL BAWXES! The cowards, the fools!) 

It can easily be granted cover from rhinoes or dreadnoughts, and they are a tough nut to crack with ranged anti-vehicular fire. If it goes for the preds, rhinoes are unharmed etc etc.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Didnt even think about preds. It seems oblits are definitely out of the question. The new argument seems to be havocs vs predators. 

Predators can be taken down with one lucky lascannon shot where as a havoc squad could more or less absorb the shot. Do you think the AV13 is better or worse than the ablative wounds? And overall would you choose havocs or preds?

Also preds can be stunned and shaken. This can be negated but is daemonic possession worth the BS3 in this case?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

havocs dont get blown up in one shot. lol
but yeah its true we are a shot and assualt army. so we specialize with in 6 to 12 inches. so just roll noise marines 10 man squads with sonic blaster. you assualt shoot 20 shots then assualt with 30. lol i run noise marines. but plague marines are the most devastating unit though. pain in the ass to kill and they have blight gernades.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

10 Havocs, IoN/ IOCG and 4x Autocannons, are a real bitch to remove, and are a major pain for the common mech armies, all razorspam lists, Chimeras, Vens/Valks, Boyz in trukks, etc. etc.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

wow. 3 years ago when I started playing 40K with Chaos this thread would be considered at best a poor attempt at sarcasm. Same codex, same ruleset, 3 years later & look how far we've come. Advice *against* both obliterators & daemon princes? Wow.

Point for point I really think that obliterators are still the better bet. Havocs are too expensive when compared to what you can get in the other codecies (unless you load them with special weaponry - the heavy is WAY to expensive). Obliterators are the most competitive choice in my eyes because they come equiped for something at all ranges. If you're shooting at armor at distances >24" you have lascannons, between 12 & 24" you have multimelta & closer still you have TL-meltaguns. Facing hordes? Plasmacannons, TL plasma & flamers. MECH? plasma cannons. As the enemy gets closer to you you get more dangerous while being quite threatening at long range. Also, you're able to deepstrike in case you _need_ to get close - hell, place them into cover while they DS - 1/6 chance to take a wound from dangerous terrain c/w a 5+ to avoid the wound - and that still wont kill the model. This will allow you to place into area terrain & still be close enough to get kill shots with your multimeltas. S&P gives relentless so if by some poor twist of fate you're unable to draw LOS to a viable target you can still move a few inches & fire your weapons THAT turn. Worried that Carnifex is getting a bit too close to your lines? Well if your havocs had to back up you've lost a turn of shooting from them, not so with oblits.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

For me its this simple.
Havocs = better at massed anti-light tank, and anti-light infantry at range, and better at medium range shooting (4-6 plasma guns/melta in a rhino beats 2-3 twin linked plasma).

Oblitorators = more cost affective anti-heavy tank, better in CC, unique run and gun option, far more tactically flexible.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

IoN Autocannon Havocs are the only unit which fulfil a job not already covered better by Chosen, Oblits or Vindicator/Defiler.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Havoks are only better than Oblits at light anti-tank. They have no tactical flexibility and their mobility is zero.

In a take-all-comers list, Oblits will always be the superior option. They can soak up far more light fire than Havoks, they can move and shoot, they always have the right gun for the job, and they can Deep Strike to take advantage of their close-range weapons if the situation calls for it. In comparison, Havoks can do one thing: sit and shoot with their overpriced weapons. 

Need to take out Terminators? Too bad, you bought Havoks. Land Raider giving you trouble? Too bad, you bought Havoks. Wish you had a TL Flamer to take out that Horde? Too bad, you bought Havoks.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Question: Why is MoN best for havocs over IoCG?

Also, for my list i've got 2x2 Oblits and a 5 man havoc squad with 2xmissile and 2x autos in a rhino. So there is a mix. 

When I made the thread originally I was planning on replacing the oblits completely but have now come to realize that the oblits can't be removed entirely as they are too flexible. It's really comin down to what I should put in that third HS slot: Keep the havocs, get a pred or a vindi, or possibly a defiler (to run with two dreads so he won't be the only AV12 out there). What do y'all think?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

dont take IoN because they arent fearless so they run. IoCG is the best so you re roll


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

5tonsledge said:


> dont take IoN because they arent fearless so they run. IoCG is the best so you re roll


IoN means less casulties, so need less tests. Not to mention a 15pt. Champ for LD 10, why not?


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

its debatable. it really comes down to references. most of the time if people attempt to shoot my havocs shoot like S6-10 weapons so having T5 really dosent make a difference


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## Mortigar (Oct 5, 2010)

for the 3rd hs slot i would opt for a pred, in most of my armies they are my 1st choice hs unit


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> IoN means less casulties, so need less tests. Not to mention a 15pt. Champ for LD 10, why not?


IoN is also as expensive as three more havocs. And it doesn't help the sorry state of their leadership.

Take them with no champ and IoCG so they'll be rerolling LD8(Pretty safe).

Take a similar squad
Havocsx5-200 pts(If my math was right, s'been awhile)
Autocannonx4
IoN
Champ

Havocsx5-145pts
Autocannonx4
IoCG

The second set of havocs will roll leadership like champs and the net worth of each dude is only approx 29pts as opposed to the t5 havocs at 40pts a marine. More is better nowadays, with the abundance of plasma, MCs, poison, and rending, it's simply not worth it to update toughness. Plus having almost three squads of havocs for the price of two squads is pretty tempting, no?


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

5tonsledge & waffles have it. IoN protects from small arms fire - but if you put havoks in the back field with ML's / AC's / LC's you're not going to receive much in the way of S3 / S4 shots. They'll be taking battlecannons & other heavy weaponry so the T5 just doesn't cut it. IoCG for the Ld 9/10 reroll is obviously best....

Waffles' only mistake is that Chaos marines are base Ld9 not 8.


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## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

I love obliterators there like a squad of Havocs


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

onne of the best, in my opinion, av 14 busting units in our poor excuse for a codex is one that is used very little. 5 chosen with meltaguns in a rhino. they are cheap and they zoom around from otherr board edges with their outflank rule, busting up armour for under 200points. havocs are great for opening transports, and they can absorb more fire than oblits before going down.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> onne of the best, in my opinion, av 14 busting units in our poor excuse for a codex is one that is used very little. 5 chosen with meltaguns in a rhino. they are cheap and they zoom around from otherr board edges with their outflank rule, busting up armour for under 200points. havocs are great for opening transports, and they can absorb more fire than oblits before going down.


yeah they are definitely awesome. I've used them before and they did great, the problem is you don't know when they are gonna come in. And I play a lot of DE so I need shooting from turn 1 and can't really afford to wait until 2, 3 or 4 for a couple of melta guns. 

That's why I need some long range fire and am considering switching out oblits for something else.

As it stands though, it all seems to be personal opinion on which unit is best  Some like preds, some love havocs, and some worship oblits. So I guess I'll just have to try them all out


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

... I've had great luck with lascannon dreadnoughts... just point them away from your own troops when you can


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## Evil beaver2 (Feb 3, 2009)

clever handle said:


> ... I've had great luck with lascannon dreadnoughts... just point them away from your own troops when you can


I like dreads too, they dont take HS slots so theres more options there, and they can give long range support decently as well as CC. I use plasma cannons instead of las, they seem a lot better than the one lascannon shot you get since you can kill heavy infantry with the blast. Its also scarier for your own guys though.

As far as havocs and oblits, oblits are far better due to flexibility and inexpensiveness. I honestly hate the way oblits look though so in friendly games I tend to take havocs and vindicators in my HS slots instead of oblits.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Oblits are great a mid-range, I barely use their lascannon. All in all, I think Havocs w/ autocanons are what your are looking for to pop AV12, they can also deliver those 8 S7 shots to the troops inside the transports should there be no other valuable target.


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