# Monolith



## hendaron (Jan 29, 2010)

by its living metal rule
you cant throw additional D6 for armour penetration
this renders my carnifexes and zoanthropes (lance doesnt count against it)
completly useless :angry:

help ... please


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Fexc are S9-10, zoes are S10... neither are useless, and the zoe is the joint best weapon against the monolith in the game (with railgun).

Zoe needs psy test, 3+ to hit, and either 4+ 6+ (glance, wrecked) or 5+, 4+ (pen, wrecked/explodes).

Fex has 5A on charge (possible +D3), hitting on 4+ or better (mebbe/probably with some/all rerolls to hit) then needs 5-6+ 5+ to wreck (depending on strength).


Fex and zoes are great for anti-monolith work... what is in fact rendered useless vs the monolith are all teh other Mcs (trygon, mawloc, tervigon, hive tyrant, harpy) all of which cannot ever hurt the monolith even if given adrenal glands (harpy/tyrant can hurt it with the heavy venom cannon, if equipped).


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Zoe needs psy test, 3+ to hit, and either 4+ 6+ (glance, wrecked) or 5+, 4+ (pen, wrecked/explodes).


You can't wreck anything on a glancing hit anymore.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

liforrevenge said:


> You can't wreck anything on a glancing hit anymore.


Ah, so, so wrong... actually, you can wreck certain vehicles on a roll of a 4+ after a glance.

Vehicle damage table mods:

-2 glance
-1 AP-
+1 AP1
+1 Open Topped
(also, immobalised desroyes vehicles in squadrons).

So if you glance with a AP1 weapon and then roll a 6 you end up with a 5 (wrecked).
How to destroy a tank on a 4+ after a glance: hit something like a basilisk in a squadron with AP1. Its open-topped(+1), your AP1(+1) and all you need is an immobalised result... so you get +2, glance gives -2 (ie cancelled out), and immobalised is a 4 (ie, tank is dead on a 2+ if you dont glance).


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Ah, so, so wrong... actually, you can wreck certain vehicles on a roll of a 4+ after a glance.
> 
> Vehicle damage table mods:
> 
> ...


Okay, but you can't destroy a _monolith_ on a glance, which is what the OP was asking about in the first place.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Sure you can, if the weapon is AP 1. I've done it with a meltagun. ST 8 weapon, roll a 6 to penetrate for a Glance, roll a 6 for damage, -2 makes it a 4, +1 makes it a 5. Dead Monloith on a Glancing hit.

And I don't see the OP asking anything about glancing, just about how to kill a Monolith with Nids.

Side note: Where in VA? I'm in Woodbridge.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

liforrevenge said:


> Okay, but you can't destroy a _monolith_ on a glance, which is what the OP was asking about in the first place.


I think tim/steve covered that when he pointed out that an AP1 shot can kill the monolith on a glance...

So monolith get's glanced by an AP1 weapon, -2 for glance, +1 for AP1, which means a roll of 6 becomes a 5 - wrecked.

At any rate, the lances and 'fexes are THE best things against a monolith - seriously, don't complain until you realise the best most other armies has against it are lascannons - and they need a lot more luck to take out a lith than a zoanthrope does. Monoliths are extremely hard to take down, but they are also extremely important to most necron armies plans - so if you manage to take one down, it usually hampers their army a hell of a lot. Meanwhile, the other thing that always works against necrons - kill them in CC, and they'll phase out, taking their 'liths with them. If they have more than one monolith, you should buzz through the rest of the army in no time flat.

Anyway, good luck with that


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

hendaron said:


> by its living metal rule
> you cant throw additional D6 for armour penetration
> this renders my carnifexes and zoanthropes (lance doesnt count against it)
> completly useless :angry:
> ...


Seriously.. as posted.. Zoans and Fexes eat them for breakfast, relatively speaking.
With Witchhunters, the only things that can kill a monolith are:
Landraider with it's lascannons, S9 Ap2.. so you need 3+(twinlinked) 6+ 4+

Penitent engines ( which need a priest to be fielded, and are Armour 10 and open topped, good luck getting them in melee with it )

Excorcist S8 AP1
Melta Guns S8 AP1
Multi Meltas S8 AP1, need 3+ 6+ 6+ to kill it



Inducted guard with lascannons.


So.. please tell me.. where do I have a better option than a couple of zoans in a spore pod to take down a Monolith.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

ITT: Opp is a complete nub with no skill that whines when having the best stuff in the game.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

wow chill on the bashing man, no need to be harsh like that.

but ya, carnifex should do well, and thropes too, but I would go with a carnifex w/crushing claws, and adrenal glands. or even better, just take old one eye...


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

maddermax said:


> I think tim/steve covered that when he pointed out that an AP1 shot can kill the monolith on a glance...
> 
> So monolith get's glanced by an AP1 weapon, -2 for glance, +1 for AP1, which means a roll of 6 becomes a 5 - wrecked.


I wonder why I didn't understand that. I read and re-read his post like 5 times. Not to mention it's in the rulebook...
Oh well, thanks tim/steve


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

hendaron said:


> by its living metal rule
> you cant throw additional D6 for armour penetration


What's the *exact* wording on that rule?

I believe it removes the extra D6 for weapons at close range and for monstrous creature attacks.

If that is so then Melta Bombs can destroy it. As far as Nids go you don't need the extra D6 for armor pen. Just get a lot of attacks. Zoanthrope should be able to do it too.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Wording is something to the effect of: you only ever use unmodified Strength + 1d6 for armour penetration, no matter what. It includes everything. Really, this thing is a beast, and arguably the best tank in 40k.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its somewhat iffy whether tank hunters works against living metal... and powerfists certainly shouldnt, but for some reason the FAQ says they do... which trows off other interps of the rule (but certainly only 1 dice for pen- no extra D6 for melta/MC and no rending).


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Why shouldn't a power fist work? It's unmodified strength of the weapon. The unmodified strength of a powerfist is 2xusers strength. 
And no to tank hunter, as it's adding something (+1) to the formula of unmod ST + 1d6.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I do believe the Vindicar Assassin has a special ammunition shot that actually works on the Monolith. I cant remember the details, but that it does work. Granted I think its a one shot affair.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

don_mondo said:


> Why shouldn't a power fist work? It's unmodified strength of the weapon. The unmodified strength of a powerfist is 2xusers strength.
> And no to tank hunter, as it's adding something (+1) to the formula of unmod ST + 1d6.


Im not getting into that old debate- but the alternative view is that tank hunter isnt +1 to the weapons strength, its described as +1 to armour penetration (so 9+D6 +1 for lascannon)... but I have to say that I royally dont care either way. The grand total times Ive only ever shot 4 S9 shots at a monolith (though admittedly 1 of tehm did kill it- love jammyness) and as Nids and daemons are my only 40k armies (WFB player now) I doubt any more S9 shots will happen (I did also shoot some S8 barbed stranglers at them last dex, but that was at a corner hoping to scatter and cover more warriors that I couldnt see).


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Doesn't matter if it's +1 to the strength or whatever. All you get against the Monolith is unaugmented strength and 1d6 (ST + d6), nothing else. The +1 for tankhunter (or Pask, How I wish Pask got his +1 against the Monolith) is something else besides UA strength and 1d6, and as you point out in your post it would be ST + d6 +1, which is not ST + d6.

As for the Vindicare, it used to be in the FAQ how his ammo worked, now it's not. So who knows whether it still works or not.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

There are loads of weapons that can get past the Monolith's defences, a lot of them are Eldar (not surprising considering that they were created as a race specifically to fight Necrons). And loads of weapons that have a really good chance of penetrating.
Haywire Grenades work, Wraith Cannons work, D-Cannons work, Zoanthrope new shooty attack will work (not the Lance part, but certainly it is effective with S10 and AP1), Ork Warboss with PowerKlaw, Dreadnoughts assaulting, Greater Daemons, Wraithlord assaulting (getting re-rolls to hit with the magic sword), Soulgrinder, Singing Spear Warlocks/Farseer... there are loads of things that can do it and I don't even know all the codexes.

The biggest asset to the Necron player is the panic that Monoliths cause in enemy players, regardless of when the game is. I managed to stun a room full of gamers yesterday by putting 3 on the table in a 1,500pt game... vs IG... poor bastard. But it is playing like that every now and then that helps keep the myth alive about the monster tanks that can't be killed makes future games easier with fewer Monoliths. Sounds odd, but that's people for you.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

I find it fun to just..well..DROP my monolith on things.....Its one of those model's that looks cool to run, and has no practical use other then scareing people!


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

don_mondo said:


> Doesn't matter if it's +1 to the strength or whatever. All you get against the Monolith is unaugmented strength and 1d6 (ST + d6), nothing else. The +1 for tankhunter (or Pask, How I wish Pask got his +1 against the Monolith) is something else besides UA strength and 1d6, and as you point out in your post it would be ST + d6 +1, which is not ST + d6.
> 
> As for the Vindicare, it used to be in the FAQ how his ammo worked, now it's not. So who knows whether it still works or not.


Umm... as far as I know, the rule doesn't say "unaugmented strength +d6" at all. It says:

1)Nothing that counts armour as less than it is (lances ect.)
2)weapons that get extra penetration dice don't get them (melta/MCs/rending ect.)

I can't think of anything that might affect tank hunters ability to work at all I have to say... or am I missing something? I'm going off the rule exactly as it was quoted to me of course. As far as I can see, both Tank Hunters and pask should get any +1 bonuses to penetrate as normal.


Edit: Ok, now this was bugging me for a bit, so I did a little bit of digging. It turns out that there are not one but two printings of the necron codex, and one says "unaugmented strength+d6" and one doesn't. The quote I saw didn't have it, but apparently some do, and *they haven't errata'd the damn thing* despite changing the rule substantially. Nice. Could someone kindly quote the unedited living metal rule for me from the newest version of the codex, for my own edification? thankyou.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

> Living Metal:
> The monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incomming attacks. Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less then it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.


I think PASK/tank hunters dodges all those exceptions- it doesnt augment the strength and they only roll 1D6- it doesnt say they _only_ get unaug strength + 1D6... but the RAI is hard to see, and probably against tank hunters (though it can, and has been argued both ways).
Conversely, I dont think powerfists should work- Don's explanation of a powerfist being a weapon with double the user's base strength made sense to me until I started to read the rules- PF rules just say that it treats the user's strength as double what it is, which is an augmentation to the strength (the PF isnt seperate to the user's stength, it just increases it)... although Im guessing the FAQ team possibly were thinking the same way when they wrote the update.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

I can see how that extra line creates a hell of a lot of extra problems right there, it sounds like a description on how it should work tacked onto the end, but creating rules (and problems) of it's own. I mean does furious charge do anything? what about weapons that add to strength, but don't double it? (like frost weapons/undivided daemon weapons/'uge choppa's ect.)? is that "augmented", especially considering a powerfist doesn't count as augmented? It's just bad wording really.

Still, it's a bit odd that GW completely forgot to Errata it - anyone with an old/second hand copy might have a different version of the rules, and never know it. Just odd really.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Monoliths are good, Necrons aren't*. How about some perspective?

* The worst codex in the game thanks to combat resolution and phase out.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Monoliths are good, Necrons aren't*. How about some perspective?
> 
> * The worst codex in the game thanks to combat resolution and phase out.


totally beside the point, doesnt matter if they are rubbish, we still want to get the rule correct, and thus work with the right tactics both for and against them.

Personally I just shoot everything else and only kill liths if I have to (eg 1 game when it was sitting on an objective I needed), but if I need to kill it I want to know what works and why...


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Doesn't the FAQ have most of the issues covered (in about three pages worth of bumpf IIRC)?

I was, in my confrontational and poorly communicating way, attempting to point out the best way of dealing with a monolith- ignore it and phase out the army (especially with tyranids!).

This was a standard response in 4th ed, and was completely wrong (because it was bloody hard to do).

Now, with combat resolution it's often contemptiously easy as the foot bods can't get away from a catastrophic one phase assault/rundown.

Other than that, zoanthropes ftw (as previously stated).


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

It is very important to make sure you use the current edition of the Necron codex. There are 2 printings, the second one included information that had previously been in the FAQ. This specifically refers to the Monolith's rules as well. 
If you are not sure which version of the codex you are using then look at the front page, just above the contact info for GW Canada, where it should say if it is the second printing. I find that this is often the fastest way to clear up rule disputes about Necrons - use the current/most recent rules.


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