# Demon Codex Rule Rumours



## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

I was not sure which of the 2 Demon threads this would fit in the most so thought I would create a third, :laugh:

@ any Mod’s if you think this needs to be moved under one of the existing two threads please do, as above was not sure where this would sit best. 

Well as the title says 4 days before the release of the codex some of the rules seem to have been leaked (in German then translated) , now I am not a Demon player myself so can’t say if this is good or bad, but from a general stand point if I was coming into the army I would like some of the things mentioned and not like others, but would not expect any different with any Codex as everyones play styles are different.

I noticed there seems to be a lot of Randomness in these rules, Roll on this table for said result, roll on that table for said result... etc, now this seems ok from a fluff point with me as it represents the Gods fickle behaviour and them taking notice or just ignoring what is going on as I have come to understand with the law,

Anyway from what I can see this has all generated a lot of “Nerd Rage” as it is called on the site in question, my question to you guys is what are your thoughts? As I tend to find a lot more well reasoned thinking on here (well most of the time anyway :laugh: )

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/chaos-daemon-rumors-translators-please.html#more


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I just keep reading Tzeentch gets Divination. If a herald gets thats, and you can still take 2 for 1 HQ... 

Thousand sons or Havocs with divination? YES YES YES 

The more I think about it the Daemons may be the key to running mono god lists, and possibly super cheesy "Chaos" lists 

Say hello to the new version of Chaos 3.5!

Of course to do this and avoid some of the randomness you have to take CSMs as your primary, so no warpstorm sheenanigans


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

_"Epidemus and his special rule
Count every unsaved wound caused by a demon of nurgle (friend and foe). Count even lost wounds saved by fnp or reanimation protocolls. Every Nurgle unit in 6" of Epidemus gains following bonus (cumulative)
7+: +1 strength
14+: +1 toughness
21+: poison (2+)
28+: fnp (4+)"_

If that's true, then the Tally Of Pestilence has been absolutely gutted. Between that and Plaguebearers losing FnP, then this Codex looks like being a huge kick in the balls to Nurgle players.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> [ Between that and Plaguebearers losing FnP, then this Codex looks like being a huge kick in the balls to Nurgle players.


well I'm just all ..... choked up about that.


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

No, no. It is time plague marine epidemius lists got nerfbatted forever. If it truly only works with daemons of nurgle, it literally doesn't work. About time.


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

The thing is, if you was new coming into the Hobby or Demons and didn't know about the previous Epidemus special rules you would be thinking Hmmm thats quite cool I wonder how I can work that into my army

I will be honest and say I don't know what the previous rules for Epidemus was, I have never faced him, and never played against Nurgle Demons since 2nd-3rd edition as my group of friends don't play them and I like the rules, I think I could come up with some nice things using them that could bolster my force if used just right if I ever decided to play Demons.

Sometimes you need to forget the past and start from fresh, take a deep breth and look at again, yes it might not be as good as before, but by the sounds of it, it was broken and to powerful in the first place, so no matter what they did people would not be happy as you have been spoilt in the past.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

The Epidemius rules that came in at the start of 6E were truly sick. They unbalanced the entire list, making it sickeningly good. You'd be a fool not to take a nurgle list. If these rumours are true, nurgle'ss back to being just good again. Seriously, bolters that wounded on 2+ all the time?


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Yeah, and what made it worse for me was that I played tyranids most of the time - and he either killed 20 spawned termagants by turn 2, or I brought a nidzilla list and he never got the tally but wounded everything on a 4+.


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## Worthy (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks for posting that link.

So Blood Letters get a toughness of 3 and 1 attack now... interesting!! (Hopefully the USR will make up for it).

BTW i'm loving Skull Taker more now he has Soul Blaze.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Wow epidemius got shit. On another note I know that heralds give bonuses to the squads like they do in fantasy (e.g nurgle gives FnP, texeentch +1 to invuns). 

Also judging from the bat-rep in white dwarf 20 pink horrors is at least a mastery level 3 psyker. 

You can buy deamonic gifts like CSM boons and they are on 3 levels, Lesser, Greater and Intermediate? 

There is also a piece of wargear that lets you create a portal to summon deamons, and I think there are conjuration powers too. 

Deamonic assault is out, but all the deamons have deep strike.

Skull cannon is S8 AP4 blast (maybe large blast can't remember)

Basically the new deamons have been nerfed in everything that has made them unique especially nurgle with their lack of FnP. But they are going to have nasty psykers.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Source: http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/chaos-daemon-qna-its-time-for-some.html



falcoso said:


> Wow epidemius got shit. On another note I know that heralds give bonuses to the squads like they do in fantasy (e.g nurgle gives FnP, texeentch +1 to invuns).


That's Loci, not Heralds.



falcoso said:


> Also judging from the bat-rep in white dwarf 20 pink horrors is at least a mastery level 3 psyker.


They just spawn more Warp Charge, AFAIK, not gain Mastery Levels. They only have 1 power too.



falcoso said:


> You can buy deamonic gifts like CSM boons and they are on 3 levels, Lesser, Greater and Intermediate?


Lesser, Greater, and Exalted. Most Daemons don't get wargear, they get randomly generated gifts.



falcoso said:


> There is also a piece of wargear that lets you create a portal to summon deamons, and I think there are conjuration powers too.


AV12/12/12, 1HP, Immobile, according to Faeit. Spawns on a 4+.



falcoso said:


> Skull cannon is S8 AP4 blast (maybe large blast can't remember)


Normal blast, apparently has an effect that any unit hit by it gets a counter, any unit charging a unit with a counter gets assault grenades (no I penalty), counters go away at the end of the turn.



falcoso said:


> Basically the new deamons have been nerfed in everything that has made them unique especially nurgle with their lack of FnP. But they are going to have nasty psykers.


Fateweaver's apparently 2 Lvl 4 Psykers, which'd be sick, and he has a Chronometron rather than the re-roll all saves in 6". I reckon he'll get a HUGE price bump.

All to be taken with salt, just regurgitating Faeit here.

Midnight


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Worthy said:


> Thanks for posting that link.
> 
> So Blood Letters get a toughness of 3 and 1 attack now... interesting!! (Hopefully the USR will make up for it).


But its still Str 4 Power Sword wielding troops for 10 points each.



> Fateweaver's apparently 2 Lvl 4 Psykers, which'd be sick, and he has a Chronometron rather than the re-roll all saves in 6". I reckon he'll get a HUGE price bump.


Rumor says he costs 33 points less than before. My be due to losing the re-roll bubble and now having WS 1.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sturk said:


> Rumor says he costs 33 points less than before. My be due to losing the re-roll bubble and now having WS 1.


So Tau are now hitting him on a 3+ and he's hitting guardsman on a 5+. That's going to be funny to see.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Worthy said:


> Thanks for posting that link.
> 
> So Blood Letters get a toughness of 3 and 1 attack now... interesting!! (Hopefully the USR will make up for it).
> 
> BTW i'm loving Skull Taker more now he has Soul Blaze.


Why? Soul Blaze is probably the most redundant rule I have ever seen.

On a side note, I don't think BL get any rules to help them out. But they likely become much cheaper so it all evens out I suppose.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

WOW... feeling so totally non-plussed about this release that its shocking.
Just not excited by any of the new rules we're hearing: I'm normally excited by some of it while worried by others, but this time round it all just seems like random crap that'll get in the way of a decent game.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> WOW... feeling so totally non-plussed about this release that its shocking.
> Just not excited by any of the new rules we're hearing: I'm normally excited by some of it while worried by others, but this time round it all just seems like random crap that'll get in the way of a decent game.


Totally agree, which sucks for my daemons. Right now it seems that they will only really be good when supporting my CSM (but bringing in some Divination seems rather good at least). Shame really.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

*Wall of text alert*

Just found this over at BoLS:


*__________________________*

"All deamons still got a 5+ invul, this counts also for every vehicle.


Lesser Gifts:1: burning blood. each time you take a unsaved wound the enemy that caused the wound suffers d3 s 4 hits with ds 5. no cover saves allowed. those wounds count towards the combat result
2: cleaving strike: each hit on a 6 causes the daemon to strike with double strength (max 10)
3: corrosive breath : flame : s 5 ap 5 assault 1 armorbane
4: spellbreaker: the daemon got the rule adamantium will
5: warpbreath: 18" s 8 ap 4 assault 1 soulblaze
6: warpstalker : the daemon and his unit get +1 on reserve rolls..

you may also decide to change your roll for the 
0: magical weapon. the daemon gains a aetherblade (s user ap 2, mastercrafted specialist weapon). 
daemons of khorne may take a bloodaxe ( s user ap 2 instand death on 6's specialist weapon), 
daemons of tzeentch a stave of change (s+2 ap 4, concussive, specialist weapon. warpcurse: a model slain by the user of this weapon explodes and hits every unit within 6" inculding the user of the stave for d6 s 5 ap - hits) , 
daemons of nurgle a mace of pestilence (s+1 ap - specialist weapon, disease: for each unsaved wound the model has to make a toughness check or suffer another wound without armor/coversaves)

daemons of slaanesh a ghostreaver sword. ( s user ap 5 rending, specialist weapon, ghostreaver: same as the nurgle one but initiative test)

Greater Gifts:
1: corpulence : the daemon got +1 toughness and the special rule it will not die
2. daemonic toughness the daemon got the special rule feel no pain (4+)
3. dark blessing: the daemon may reroll failed invul saves
4 hellfiregaze : 18" s 8 ap 1 assault 1 lance
5 touch of decay the close combat attacks of the daemon got armorbane and lifebane
6 unbreakable skin, the daemon gets a 3+ armor save.

and the 0 if you decide for it:

mighty magical weapon:
you gain a mighty aetherblade (s +1 ap 2 mastercrafted, specialist weapon

daemons of khorne may take a bloodblade: (s user ap 2, specialist weapon, unwieldly, bloodthirst: the wielder gains the special rule rampage
daemons of tzeentch may take the mutating warpblade (s user ap 3, specialist weapon, warpmutation: a character slain with with weapon becomes a chaos spawn on a 2+
daemons of nurgle may take pestielnce sword (s user ap - poison 4+ instand death. specialist weapon, rustbreath: every armor pen throw of 6 is automatically a glancing hit if it wouldnt be a penetrate allready)
daemons of slaanesh may take whip of despair ( 12" s user ap - assault 2w6)

Exalted Gifts:
1: blessed twice: roll twice again on this chart. reroll another 1. xou apply both results without further costs
2: riftbringer: at the end of close combat phase in wich the daemon caused at least 1 unsaved wound you roll 2w6 and add 1 for each 3 unasved wounds the daemon caused. is the sum is 9 or higher a new unit of daemons will be created like the warpstorm table result number 12
3: souleater: at the end of the close combat phase, if the daemon caused at least one unsaved wound you roll a d6. on a 2+ the daemon gains another lifepoint (and may go up to 10 lifepoints)
4: unholy rage : the daemon gains the special rules rampage and rage
5: warpflame. the first time this daemon is slain dont remove him from the game but take him from the table instead. the daemon may come back from reserve with 1 wound remaining.
6: winds of chaos : 24" s 2w6 ap 4 assault 1 3" explosiv. fluktuation : roll the strenght after caling the target, if its 11 or 12 its counting as s10 but is a 5" blast instead of 3"

and the 0 again:
the daemon may take a hellforged artifact of his choise from the armory.. note that these are uniqe and only once taken:

eternal blade: s +1 ap - specialist weapon, honorseeker: at the beginning of the assault phase in wich the wielder is bound to roll a d3. the result will be granted to the wielders WS, initiative and attacks.

grimoire of true names: you may use it at any time in your movement phase. the target hast to be within 24" and at least one model with the special rule daemon has to be within the unit. 
is the unit a enemy it has -1 on reserve rolls. is the unit a friendly unit roll a d6. on a 1-2 the all models in the unit (except the user) with the special rule daemon suffer -1 on the reserve rolls. if you roll a 3+ all models with the rule daemon have +2 on their invulnerable saves until your next turn.

portalglyph: may be used once per game. you may place it in the movement phase (does not matter when) place a 3" blast within 12" around the user. and let it scatter 4d6. if the marker goes off the board or cannot be placed it will move the distance so it can be placed (droppod) after that its a vehicle with the following profile : bs 0 12/12/12 hp 1

after placing the portalglyph you roll a d6 at the end of your movement phase. on a 4+ a new unit of d6 daemons (of your choisem horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers or bloodletters) the unit got no upgrades but counts as a normal unit of its type.

the stone of the damned: at the beginning of the assault phase. every enemy character models that are not daemons have to make a ld test. if it passes, nothing happens. if it loses. the model has -d6 on his ld value. if a model goes below 0 this way. it gets removed instantly without saves allowed.

Psychic Powers
Tzeentch: primaris: 24" s 5 ap 4 assault 2d6, warpflames, soulfire. 1 warpcharge.
for each additional warpcharge you gain a additional d6
1-2: 24" S d6 +1 assault 1 3" explosive, warpflames
3-4: 24" beam s d6+4 ap 2 assault 1 warpflames
5-6: witchfire: 18" s d6+4 ap 1 assault 1 explosive 3" warpflames.

Nurgle:
primaris: witchfire : flame s - ap 3 assault 1 poison 4+
1-2 : witchfire, 12" s 1 ap 2 assault 1 5" blast 4+ poison.
3-4 : blessing, the psyker gains at the beginning of each assault phase a d3. all enemys in base contact have the score reduced on their WS and initiative
5-6 : nova: every enemy within 12" has to do a toughness test or suffer a wound without armor or coversaves allowed. if the unit loses a model it has to do another toughness check and so on and so on.

Slaanesh
primaris : beam ; 24" s 6 ap - rending assault 1
1-2 : malediction, a enemy within 18" has -5 initiative and can not use the special rule counter attack nor can it overwatch
3-4 : 24" focused witchfire. enemy has to do a leaderchip tests or takes a wound without armor or coversaves allowed. if the model dies you nominate another random model in the unit. and so on and so on....
5-6 : nova : 12" every enemy has to roll 2w6 on and take the ld of the result. for every point remaining on this roll the unit suffers a wound without armor or cover saves allowed. after that the units have to do a pinning test- 

Banners
horrors can for additional 20 points get the banner of curse... wich once per game causes a additional 2d6 s 4 ds - hits to any unit hit.

nurgle banner is nce per game all models in the unit have poisoned weapons 2+

slanesh: every enemy in base contact with the banner has -3 ws

Skarbrand
ws 10 bs 10 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 10 a 6 ld 9 sv 3+
every unit (friend and foe) within 12" have rage and hatred (everything!)
got a s 5 ap - flamer...
his weapons 
murder : s user ap 2 lifebane
deathstrike s user ap 2 armorbane
225 points. his warlord trait is the all attacks cause instant death.

Bloodthirster
250 points
ws 10 bs 10 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 9 a 6 ld 9 Sv 3+ 
axe of khorne (instantdeath on 6s)
whip of khorne ( 12" s 6 ds 2 assault 1)
may take up to 50 points in daemonic gifts. 

Skulltaker
ws 9 bs 9 s 5 t 4 w 2 i 9 a 4 ld 8 sv3+
always has to accsept and issue challenges. 
got eternal warrior and his sword is 
s user ap 3 soulblaze and kills on 6's
comes with the adamant will presence.
may take a jugger for 45 points. he costs 100 points

Karanak 120 points
ws 7 bs 0 s 5 t 5 w 3 i 6 a 4 ld 6 sv 6+
before placing the armys on the board nominate his prey(character). as long as this model is alive karanak rerolls all to hit and to wound rolls against the prey and its unit
got the rage presence from the start. 

Flesh Hounds
16pts
ws 5 bs 0 s 4 t 4 w 2 i 4 a 2 ld 7 sv 6+/5++
scouts
collar of khorne: +2 on deny the witch rolls.

Khorne Heralds
55 points
ws 7 bs 7 s 5 t 4 w 2 i 6 a 3 ld 6 sv 6+
30 points into gifts
lesser presence of stubborness (may misstranlate here): 10 points the model and his unit have adamantium will
presence of rage : 20 points the model and his unit gain rage
presence of wrath: 25 points the model and his unit got hatred (everything!)
may take a juggernaught 45 points or a 
Juggernaut ; +1 t +1 w + 1 a and becomes cavalry.
bloodthrone for 75 points

Bloodthrone
bs 0 12/12/10 3 hullpoints.
if the bloodthrone causes at least one hammer of wrath wound he regains a hullpoint on a 4+

a herald on a bloodthrone brings his presence to every khorne unit within 6" instead of only the unit he is in.

open topped transport but can only carry the herald

Bloodcrushers
ws 5 bs 5 s 5 t 4 w 3 i 4 a 4 ld 7 sv 6+ 
hellblades. and they cost 5 points more then currently.

one may become a bloodhunter for 5 points gaining 1 attack and can take up to 20 points in gifts.
may take instrument, icon and banner. 



Bloodletter
10pts
hellblades - ap 3.
WS 5 bs 5 s 4 t 3 w 1 i 4 a 1 ld 7 sv 6+
one may be a hellfighter with the possibility to get up to 20 points in rewards.

one may take instrument of chaos 10 points, (if you deepstrike this unit you may nominate another unit of the same god to deepstrike right after them without reserve roll. in addition the warpstrom table roll of the same god wich wipes on the opposing god you may reroll the d6 if the unit is hit.

one may take ikon of chaos 10 points and may (still a homer but only works for units fo the same god) upgrade that for banner of blood for 10 points. ( the unit may once per game assault 6"+d6 instead of 2d6. 

Ku'gath
260pts
ws 6 bs 3 s 6 t7 w 7 i 4 a 6 ld 9

still got his 4+ pieplate but its ap 3 now. 
psyker level 1
and can heal 1 w per turn on a single unit of nurglings...

Great Unclean One
190 points
ws 6 bs 3 s 6 t 7 w 6 i 4 a 5 ld 9
psyker level 1
poison (4+)
cann roll for pestilence and biomancy. may be upgraded up to psyker level 3 for 25 pts per level.
may take 50 points of lesser, mighty and exhalted gifts. 

Nurgle Herald
ws 5 bs 5 t 5 w 2 i 4 a 3 ld 8
45 points. may take up to 30 points in gifts.
may be psyker up to level 2 for 25 points each.
may take presence of virulence: 10 points the model and its unit got poison 2+
presence of fertility 20 points the model and its unit gain feel no pain.
presence of affliction. 25 points. the model and his unit gains for every 6 on the enemy's to hit rolls instantly attack with s4 ap - and poison 4+ (next to the normal attacks)
palanquin 45 points: gains +2 w +1 a and is bulky.

Plaguebearer
9pts 
ws 3 bs 3 s 4 t 4 w 1 i 2 a 1 ld 7
daemon of nurgle so really they are shrouded... but no fnp nor t 5

Fateweaver
300pts
ws 1 bs 6 s 5 t 5 w 5 i 2 a 1 ld 9 4+ invul.
can reroll a single dice per turn.
psyker level 4. one head knows all of tzeentch +1 roll on pyromancy and prophecy, the other one knows all tzeentch and 1 roll on telepathy and biomancy you have to decide wich head is used at the start of every turn. 

no longer make a ld or dissapear after getting wounded.
no reroll bubble

Lord of Change
230pts
ws 6 bs 6 s 6 t 6 w 5 i 6 a 5 ld 9 and 5+ invul (like every other daemon)
starts as psyker level 2. can get a additional level for the same price as others.
can roll on tzeentch lore and divination.
can take up to 50 points in gifts.

Herald of Tzeentch
45 points
ws 3 bs 4 s 3 t 3 lp 2 i 3 a 2 ld 8 
psyker level 1. prophecy and change as powers.
may take up to 30 points in daemonic gifts.
psyker levels up to 3 for 25 points each.
take up to three presences. 
presence of tranmorification 10 points ( for each dead horror you place d3 blue horror markers instead of 1)
presence of change 20 points you roll a d6 at the start of each turn. your model and his unit gain the strength of the d6 roll.
presence of conjuration: 25 points +1 strength on the power of psychic powers by the model and his unit.
may take a disk of tzeentch 25 points
Disk of tzeentch: +1 a and jetbike 
chariot of tzeentch 50 pts

Chariot of Tzeentch
100 pts flat.
10/10/10 all around 3 hp
flamer on the inside got 3 lp otherwise same profile as the rest.
my take the blue horror upgrade 10 pts (-1 ld for every enemy within 6".
can take up to 20 pts in gifts
open topped, fast, skimmer, chariot. 

Flamers
same, but loose awesome flamer attack, replaced with 
s4 ap4 and causes warpflame wich basically causes the enemy to force a toughness check after wounds have been caused. if he fails he suffers d3 additional wounds without armor or cover allowed. if he makes the test he gains 6+ feel no pain or if the unit already got feel no pain it becomes better by 1.. they cost the same as of the update.

Screamers
same (and re-roll 1)

Pink Horrors 
9pts
ws 3 bs 3 s 3 t 3 w 1 i 3 a 1 ld 7
for psychic tests they add +3 to the ld
Blue horrors: if a pink horror is slain place a blue horror marker.. at initiative 1 the blue horror attacks causing the enemy unit to suffer one s2 hit with ap - 

horrors can only cast change dicipline, not divination.
horrors get 1 warppoint, 2 at unit strength 11-15 and 3 at 16-20. they generate psychic powers at the start of the game like normal psykers but can only roll on tzeentch lore.

2d6 shots base +d6 for each additional warp point. in additon they have access to the other spells of lore of tzeentch, you roll for them like you do with psykers. making them psyker level 3 gives great benefit.

Slaanesh
sadly no named greater daemon.

Masque
75 pts
ws 7 bs 6 s 4 t 3 w 2 i 7 a ld 8
may take up to hit and run. unnatural reflexes (may reroll failed invul saves)
eternal dance: at the beginning of the shooting phase you decide for wich dance she makes against a single non vehicle unit within 12"

dance of binding: the enemy has -5 WS (minimum 1) can only move d3" only d3" run and only d3" assault. also the unit can only fall back d3"

dance of death: the unit suffers as many strength 1 hits as models are in the unit. these hits have AP 2 and igore cover.

dance of dreaming: the target has -5 bs and cannot overwatch. until the next turn of the mask.

Herald of Slaanesh
45 pts 
ws 7 bs 6 s 4 t 3 w 2 i 7 a 4 LD 8
same psyker upgrades as nurgle as well as gifts..
presence same costs.. here are the tiers:

presence of grace : model and unit gains move through cover
presence of agility (30pts) the model and its unit have +5 on its initiative (yes you read that right)
presence of seduction. the model and its unit may reroll to hit rolls in close combat. the user always has to accept challenges or issue them. but the user of the presence decides wich character the enemy takes for the challenge.

slanesh horse. 15
chariot 30
exhalted chariot 80
Steed of slaanesh: +1 a and outflanking and acute senses. also becomes cavalry

Fiends
ws 4 bs 0 s 4 t 4 lp 3 i 6 a 3 ld 7 
models that getsin contact by one or more feinds gets -5 to their initiative
they got a 12" aura that decreases enemy psykers LD by 1
35 pts a piece

Seekers
ws 5 bs 4 s 3 t 3 lp 1 i 5 a 3 LD 7 
outflank, acute senses
12 points a piece

Daemonettes
9pts 
ws 5 bs 4 s 3 t 3 w 1 i 5 a 2 ld 7
no longer rending

Daemon Princes
warpsmithed armor with a 3+ armorsave for 20 points.
they can be made heavy support with the corresponding greater deamon (and charakter GD) fromt he same god.

Chaos Furies
ws 3 bs 0 s 4 t 3 w 1 i 4 a 1 ld?
infantry with jumpmodule (like crisis)
Can be to khorne/nurlge/slaanesh/tzeentch

Soulgrinder 
135 pts + upgrade to god needed
Comes with close combat weapon and the harvester
Harvester is now a weapon with 2 profiles...
autocannon with 6 shots
autocannon with 3 shots and skyfire 
Can can get the flamer (wich is now torrent) for 20
phlegm for 30
tongue for 25 points" 


*____________________*


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

Svartmetall said:


> Wall of text


I didn't read everything, but the bits I did look accurate compared to what I read in the codex.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hmm looks like daemons are becoming a swarm army by design. Like tyranids, but with in saves instead of armor saves. Makes sense, and kinda helps them against GK's as at the low cost, making 20-25 units will cause the 20/25 power weapon attacks GK unit often throw out less then usfull.

Still with most of them have human toughness I see huge swaths of them disappearing to instability and CC casualties. Although with 5+ in saves, no panic, and low costs shooting armies have more to worry about now as giant swarms of daemons will probably shrug off incoming fire. However its weird to accept that daemons from the warp can be pistol wiped by a gaurdsman.


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## Worthy (Feb 10, 2013)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Why? Soul Blaze is probably the most redundant rule I have ever seen.


Maybe so, but it's a nice little bonus for a combat ace that'll mainly be taking on rival characters.



> On a side note, I don't think BL get any rules to help them out. But they likely become much cheaper so it all evens out I suppose.


I was thinking something like 'Daemons of Khorne', but even if it got that, it still wouldn't be much of an improvement.

I agree though, 10pts each makes up for it.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I like the fact that they have brought back blue horrors, It would be nice if they released a set for them.

Seems like a lot of the amazing things about demons have been nerfed, like plaguebearers and flamers, but there are a lot of other really cool things and a fair points drop to balance it out


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I've gotten word that the codex has already leaked.


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## Iniquity (Jan 13, 2013)

I've had the new daemon codex in my possession for about 36 hours.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Iniquity said:


> I've had the new daemon codex in my possession for about 36 hours.


Well don't keep it to yourself - spill? Thougts? Review?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Heralds aren't 2 for 1 anymore... you can take 4 in 1 HQ slot (masque and blue scribes aren't heralds anymore)

all nurgle units have shrouded and defensive grenades... that's +3 cover save within 8" or +2 outside. Even the nurgle soul grinder gets it. They'll weather shooting like its nothing but will die horrendously in combat... assault armies like orks or blood angels will laugh at a nurgle army.

Tzeentch just can't fight against MEQ armies, especially if they have FNP and/or psychic hoods. A blood angels army led by a libby with a couple of sanguinary priests could take on a mono-tzeentch army many times its size with ease...
Lords of change now eat face but lost their cool save. Kairos is shit now, gives you nothing that a couple of heralds can't do better (and a herald outfights him). Changeling copies enemy's stats (doesn't remove them) but with no wargear he's not that big a threat. Blue horrors are back as a special bonus... they're almost totally ignorable, but could be funny.


Slaanesh just became filthy... filthy beyond belief.
Every champ and herald is going to take a greater gift and switch to a greater etherblade for S4-5 AP2 attacks at high initiative... back that up with massed cheap rending attacks, outflanking seekers (outflank, reroll side, move 12", run D6+6" then next turn 12" move with 2D6" fleet charge should get you to any unit on the table). If that isn't bad enough heralds get access to telepathy... in my view the strongest of the psychic lores.
... on the downside the masque is both powerful beyond belief and insanely easy to kill (can basically stop any deathstar combat unit in the game dead in its tracks... but at T3 with a rerollable 5++ and still no ability to join units she'll die to a few bolt pistols).

Khorne is pretty much the same as ever... but will rely massively on soul grinders for anti-air and anti-tank. Blood throne seems like a pretty decent heavy support option, but its still rear AV10 so most things will be able to down it fairly easily (and it competes with grinders).

Random others:
furies are awesome: still really really shit but you can upgrade them to a god of your choice and have 20 of them in a unit for well under 200pts. 40 S4 or S3 rending attacks (khornate or slaaneshi) on a fast moving unit is pretty nice... but if they don't release a plastic kit for them it'll take someone selling their soul to afford to do it....

My hatred of DPs is going to continue on into this dex too: without wings their a joke, with wings they'll be playable but not a scratch on bloodthirsters/lords of change (and they'll be about the same points cost).

Soul Grinders are now awesome: god upgrades, skyfire pseudo-autocannons, S10 AP2 and the 5++ inv save... similar weapons options as now but you don't start with the flamer (and if you want you can have an AP3 sword to get +1 attack and I3).


Generally I'm not that impressed: its overly complicated with a gimmicky feel to many things. "I think this'll be cool" is a good way to add extras, not to write a whole dex...


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Cheers Tim/Steve, some interesting tit bits. I played a mono Khorne army last edition but sold it after it became unplayable due to close combat nerf in 6th, but did keep a few bits to add as allies for my Chaos and Guard. Pondering whether they continue to add anything to either army that will be useful enough to spend £30 on the new book or just cash out of demons completely. I'll monitor other peoples views with interest.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I've been downsizing my daemons for a while... but now I think that'll speed up. I've never really had much love for khorne and from what I can guess about how tzeentch/nurgle are going to work in the new book running mono lists of either is going to be pretty dodgy and dull....

I think I'll sell off everything except slaanesh and try to get them working nicely... might even team them up with an Emperor's Children army at some points: keep being tempted but have never got round to it.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The stand out units in the last book have been nerferd a lot 

Blood crushers are heart breakingly bad now. They now suffer the "Tyranid Warrior" effect being low toughness, exceptionally poor save and costly multiwound. Daemons are not Eternal any more

Flamers are suffering from "pyrovore" syndrome in that they are just a walking heavy flamer

Fiends and Beasts are stand out in elite 

The heralds are 4-1 but only in a primary detachment so if being used by allies they are 1-1. I think the masque will be faq'd into that list

Princes are pretty much the same as the CSM ones

Kairos is ~ok You pay a bit for his lord of unreality trait, which is the best trait so far as I can tell. And his immunity to be instakilled by missiles and lascannons, His staff of tomorrow is a very useful reroll, combined with his better save. Key with him is to avoid CC whatever you do he is worse than a FW in combat, and could be vulnerable to being JotWW off if you play against SWs 

Bloodletters are good, cheap powerswords, Daemonettes are good, loads of cheap rending. horrors and plaguebearers not so much. Though PBs are very good against MCs due to poison 

Fast attack is again for chaos the stand out section. All the units are really nice here, most are cheap, and all seem a viable and efficient unit, other than possibly the hellflayer

For HS chariots of slaanesh are still meh, The Tzeentch chariot is glass cannon in mini form, The Soul grinder is fantastic (Compared to the rest) 


Playing pure daemon will be tough and will require a lot of testing and balancing. That said they are by the (Admittedly only gut reaction) looks of it a very viable tourni army. 
They do however look to be fantastic allies for a CSM army, Tzeentch Heralds can add divination to your army for the cost of 1.5 warp talons and bloodletters still have power swords at 33% of the price of a warp talon


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

So are Soulgrinders REALLY better then Demon Princes now?


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Barnster said:


> Blood crushers are heart breakingly bad now. They now suffer the "Tyranid Warrior" effect being low toughness, exceptionally poor save and costly multiwound. Daemons are not Eternal any more


Are BC cavalry now or still plodding around 6"? Has the armour save gone down as well?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> I've been downsizing my daemons for a while... but now I think that'll speed up. I've never really had much love for khorne and from what I can guess about how tzeentch/nurgle are going to work in the new book running mono lists of either is going to be pretty dodgy and dull....
> 
> I think I'll sell off everything except slaanesh and try to get them working nicely... might even team them up with an Emperor's Children army at some points: keep being tempted but have never got round to it.


Exactly my thoughts. Ive sold my fatecrusher long ago, and now that tally looks unplayable, thats next on the chopping block. Mono slaanesh looks like it could work, and it'll team up nicely with my EC. Plenty of cheap fast moving bodies with rending? Sounds perfect.



Azkaellon said:


> So are Soulgrinders REALLY better then Demon Princes now?


Easily. Especially when you factor in the price tag.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Azkaellon said:


> So are Soulgrinders REALLY better then Demon Princes now?


AV13 5++ model with a skyfire weapon as standard and 4-5 S10 combat attacks for ~150pts... spend another 20-30pts for a second ranged weapon of your choice to tool it to your liking but the harvester is pretty decent now and comes as standard.

or

T5 4w 3+/5++ FMC for ~300pts
DPs are ~160pts basic (since they must align to a god) and are catapulted over 200pts by taking the armour save and wings that I can't see many people leaving off them... that's before _any_ offensive upgrades.

I often didn't use heavy support in the old dex... in the new one I think my soul grinders will be standard issue.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm going to hazard that the piece missing from the CSM book was really the synergy from the accompanying daemons book.

Divination + forge fiend?
Yes please!

CSM + cultists + daemons? 
Hell yeah!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

slaaneshy said:


> Are BC cavalry now or still plodding around 6"? Has the armour save gone down as well?


BCs are cavalry but their save has been reduced to 6+/5++, they are also only T4

at the same cost of a Tzeentch Herald (1.5 Warp talons), I personally think I would prefer to take 5 daemonettes to the 1 crusher


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> I'm going to hazard that the piece missing from the CSM book was really the synergy from the accompanying daemons book.
> 
> Divination + forge fiend?
> Yes please!
> ...



Which is where the fluff has pretty much always been at. Cultists and Daemons would be a nice one too by the fluff. The archetypal planetary uprising.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Barnster said:


> BCs are cavalry but their save has been reduced to 6+/5++, they are also only T4
> 
> at the same cost of a Tzeentch Herald (1.5 Warp talons), I personally think I would prefer to take 5 daemonettes to the 1 crusher



Thanks for clarifying im gutted I loved that model - the terminator of the Demon world....although with a 5 points increase, a drop in toughness and no EW i'm inclined to think the 6+ save is a typo...I mean look at the model - its a big mule covered in armour plates for christs sake!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

If they had a 3+ save I'd take them without question, yes they would still be vulnerable to missiles and the like, but at the moment they fall way too easily to bolters and even flashlight guns

The other problem is they don't hit much harder than bloodletters, certainly not enough to justify their points. 

The resistant elite is the beast of Nurgle and the killy is Fiends. I can see flamers being good against pretty much every non meq army, but honestly how many of those are there?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> Thanks for clarifying im gutted I loved that model - the terminator or the Demon world....although with a 5 points increase, a drop in toughness and no EW i'm inclined to think the 6+ save is a typo...I mean look at the model - its a big mule covered in armour plates for christs sake!


Well, the good news is that you can have 1-4 heralds as a single HQ choice so if you (like me) love your crushers just use them as khorne heralds on juggernaughts and throw them into your khorne dog units. For 5 points less than a bare unit of warp talons you get a fast moving, terminator slaying, character munching beast that also provide hatred for his entire unit. 
If you ask me, khorne heralds really seem beasty for their cost so this is what I'll be doing with my crushers this edition.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Barnster said:


> The resistant elite is the beast of Nurgle and the killy is Fiends. I can see flamers being good against pretty much every non meq army, but honestly how many of those are there?


Beasts are immense: they might not kill stuff very quick but they'll survive almost anything.
Not so impressed by fiends: they're more survivable then they were but they're offence is about half what it was... 
Flamers are a solid choice but nothing special any more
Crushers are good but radically different: they used to be terminator equivalents but now they are basically like fast attack now.

... all told I'm not massively impressed by the elites section, but then I'm not impressed by the elites in my IG or necrons either, so no change there.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Increasingly disappointed in it the more I read through it, especially as a Nurgle player. Yes, Tally could be overpowered when combined with Nurgle-marked CSMs; so address _that_ synergy, don't gut it to the point of total uselessness for Daemons too...there is no reason to take Epidemius at all now. Plaguebearers are too weak - yes, they're slightly cheaper, but to take away T5 _and_ FnP at the same time? Sorry, but that's bollocks. Nobody was going "Waa waa waa, Plaguebearers are so overpowered" before now, were they, so why gut them like this? And Beasts of Nurgle are still rubbish (and extremely expensive)...honestly, the whole thing just feels like a Khorne love-fest, I mean Skulltaker's about the only thing that gets Eternal Warrior and Skarbrand is just _ridiculous_ now - _nine_ re-rolling I10 WS10 Instant Death Fleshbane/Armourbane attacks on the charge? Really? 

Oh yeah, and Daemonic Instability's crap, too.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The Problem I have with Elites is they are all meh compared to the godlike troops and fast attack sections of the book

The elites (Especially for Khorne) add very little to what the Bloodletters and Daemonettes already bring. Yes they are slightly faster but I'm not sure if thats worth the crazy extra points premium that you have to pay 

I like the fiends as a support unit and think you can use them to synergies with other units very well, the initiative hit can help against meq armies to make a devastating charge




> honestly, the whole thing just feels like a Khorne love-fest,


Really? I think slaanesh has gained the most. Daemonettes are great and very cheap. 

Tzeentch seems to have taken the biggest hit. Horrors have taken a horrible hit, losing warpfire, flamers have been nerfed. The new chariot is awful. The only reason to take them competitively is heralds with divination (prescience) and screamers


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## Jam123456 (Feb 9, 2012)

can't help but feel a little let down by GW. They obviously selfishly want to sell as many models as possible so have changes an elite army into a hord army.a totally unpredictable one at that.

I could spend 250 points on a greater deamon and get shit gifts. well done. Like wise i can get shit shooting powers / psyker powers.
I could even field 20 horrors and only be able to shoot 4 shots. Thats crap.

I will probably buy the codex to have a good read of all the rules but if what i'v read here is anything to go by It may well be better selling the lot as I'm not sure how fun it will be playing a strategically great game and each time getting fucked by shit rolls. i mean really you cant pick what weapons or gifts you would take to battle its all dumb luck... 
thats like saying for marines or IG roll a D6 to see what weapons you can put on that 200pt tank. oh look you got double one so just a pair of bolters for you on your nice waste of space tank.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

screamers got hit hard too: from the update you could have 4 S5 Ap2 attacks (which was stupid) but now lamprey's bite is a single attack per screamer- they're a lot like they were before the update came out (1 S8 hit on vehicles became 1 S5 AP2 armourbane vs anything) but they've gained 2 standard attacks and +1 wound (but lost 1 point of inv save).


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Agreed 100%.

Having so much of your army's stats and abilities decided by random D6 rolls is _bollocks_.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

What about the fanatasy book? have they fucked that up too? I've been trying to start a deamons army for ages (mainly for fantasy but I was going to use it for both) and I have had a box of pink horros and spent £30 on ye olde metal plaguebearers which I have meaning to paint for a while. From what I am hearing, it's going to a long while longer before I do.

That said I do expect to see a lot of flying monstrous creatures lists in the future and a slaanesh spam with all those rending attacks


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Well, the good news is that you can have 1-4 heralds as a single HQ choice so if you (like me) love your crushers just use them as khorne heralds on juggernaughts and throw them into your khorne dog units. For 5 points less than a bare unit of warp talons you get a fast moving, terminator slaying, character munching beast that also provide hatred for his entire unit.
> If you ask me, khorne heralds really seem beasty for their cost so this is what I'll be doing with my crushers this edition.


Genius! Love this idea.

Seems to me that demons may now work better as more of an 'allied' force to a shooty army, adding some close combat punch to a Guard army and the like?

I think i'll pickup the codex and see what I can do with my remaining Khorne units but am unlikely to add anything additional unless it really screams 'take me'.

How does the instability rule work - is it as rumoured in the other thread?


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## Jam123456 (Feb 9, 2012)

so let me get this right. Warpfire table

I don't know if you guessed or pieced stuff together but that is exactly the table.

now this seems a bit unfair. only 3 good things on this, the rest are all probably going to be bad. 5,6,8, and 9 could be great or if you get a hit well by by squad. thats nice. as you have a 50% chance to get a hit on a scatter dice. 

Random everything so how do you plan for that. oh right you don't.. Think my round bases will be turning to square bases. hope they didn't cock up fantasy daemons as well.

But yes that table is rather lop-sided in regards to benefits. - darkreever


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Are you all being serious right now? Daemons were the most unbalanced army out there, GW introduces a little balance and now you all cry about it? Which 6th Ed codex has a model with BS AND WS 10 with 5 wounds, wings, S/T 6, and a crap load of attacks? That's right, Daemons. Which army gets to re-roll all 1s for saves for free? That's right, Tzeentch Daemons. Which army has rending attacks on basic troops for free? Slaanesh Daemons. Which army every turn has a 1/3 chance to get a free opportunity to bombard EVERY ENEMY MODEL ON THE TABLE with MEQ killing potential that they can do NOTHING to stop? Daemons. I could go on and on but my guess is most of you have stopped reading. You want to sell your Daemons off? I have a sensible Daemon player who is excited about this new book who would love to take your models off your hands.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

We are not crying about it!

What we are saying is the book has poor internal balance, meaning some units are just better than others. 

Lately all the codexes that have been released have very good internal balance so that it takes a long time to fix a good list. In the daemon book some units are simply better than others

Eg Daemonettes and bloodletters are just better troops than horrors or plaguebearers. The only HS slot you would ever consider is the soul grinder 

And to top it all you don't buy wargear for characters but randomly generate it. For some stupid reason GW seems to have got it into their head that random = good, which it really isn't 

As far as the Tzeentch armour save, give me power armour any day over the ability to re roll 1s. Against most weapons the daemon is as durable as the conscript. You also have Daemonic instability which is fine in fantasy due to big units, not so much in 40k. 

Daemons are still fundamentally a CC army in a shooty edition. Generally it seems GW panickedwhen they saw how cheesy some of the list were when allied so cut them, it would have been nice to at least leave crushers and flamers viable


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

psactionman said:


> Which army gets to re-roll all 1s for saves for free? That's right, Tzeentch Daemons.


That's not an army, that's just one potential part of it. If you don't like Tzeentch, that doesn't apply. Likewise your quoting Skarbrand's stat line - that's just one very expensive HQ choice. 



psactionman said:


> Which army has rending attacks on basic troops for free? Slaanesh Daemons.


Ditto.



psactionman said:


> Which army every turn has a 1/3 chance to get a free opportunity to bombard EVERY ENEMY MODEL ON THE TABLE with MEQ killing potential that they can do NOTHING to stop?


What on earth are you talking about...? And how about the Warp Storm table, which you _must_ roll on and that can see a huge amount of your own army decimated or even _completely destroyed_ (via Daemonic Instability) or having their only save chance halved at the start of every Shooting phase without the opponent having to lift a finger?

This Codex is fatally reliant upon random dice rolls, which will prevent the building of any coherent or reliable lists, and has far too many built-in random factors that could kill or at the very least seriously weaken your own army. I think it's going to get a very frosty reception from a lot of people because of these 'features'.


_____


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, agree with all of that... emeies will occasionally get zapped by the warp but it'll be an annoyance not a game winner. I think it'll be quite easy to overlook entirely most of the time... its the edge results that scare me: they could almost instantly lose the game for daemons on a bad roll or potentially win it for them in some situations.

I think the army will do great as a bit of fun... but anyone who wants a serious army is going to hate it. They were bad before with the potential to lose your army to DS problems but now its just so random its crazy: I don't mind the odd game being a bit weird and strange things happening but that'll happen anyway in a dice game. When you go out your way to force it to happen it'll just be annoying.

As for daemons getting no assault grenades on any unit with initiative worth a damn and then no immunity to force weapons it's a joke: a GK grand master sitting in terrain is all but immune to all the HQ or elite units in the book.


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

Anyone looked at the fantasy deamon book? What that like


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## crimson skull (Aug 3, 2008)

I have over 15000 points of daemons for 40k and am so pissed off with the new dex i'm changing it all over to fantasy as they have made the army really good and fun and from comparing the two books, they are frighteningly similar and that don't work as fantasy is about combat and magic whereas 40k is about shooting and combat there needs to be a different feel to the 40k list but sadly i think gw has been lazy by making the books very similar, i mean if this is the case with daemons whats gonna happen to orks are we gonna see same stats and maybe night goblins with guns?

Random armies work well in fantasy just look at skaven whereas 40k needs choice as you can't go to battle against an army with tanks if you haven't rolled anything to help take them out.

Very disappointed.

As far as the fantasy book, the army works alot better than before and fits with all the books released so far and i think will be alot of fun using and i don't mind bloodletters being toughness 3 as that's the average in fantasy anyway.


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Barnster said:


> We are not crying about it!
> 
> What we are saying is the book has poor internal balance, meaning some units are just better than others.
> 
> Lately all the codexes that have been released have very good internal balance so that it takes a long time to fix a good list. In the daemon book some units are simply better than others


I disagree. Every codex has units that are either just plain better than others, or have a very specific job to do. Take the new Dark Angels codex. Scouts are worthless compared to a tactical squad, if you just use them like you would a tactical squad. Scouts and plaguebearers are exceptional at holding objectives. If done right your plaguebearers get a 3-4+ cover save, which beats scouts any day. Holding an objective in your deployment zone and forcing your opponent to bring their troops all the way across the battle field, because shooting them doesn't work when you have a 3+ cover save, can be very useful in a match with objectives. Even in a killy match cheap troops to suck up shots and waste opponent's Overwatch is very useful. Not to mention they would have to be ignoring the rest of your forces in the process, which will kill them. And Horrors have access to some very powerful Change Psychic Powers, all of which have Warpflame, which can be very effective at wiping even Terminators. Not to mention, they are cheap, and get a +3 to their leadership when casting psychic powers. I would hesitate to say Bloodletters are just better troops. They have a job to do, get into close combat. But they are vulnerable to shooting. Horrors are vulnerable to assaults but good at shooting.



> The only HS slot you would ever consider is the soul grinder.


Or a Daemon Prince if you bring a Greater Daemon. Flexibility and options. I can't remember if Beasts of Nurgle are HS or not. If they are, those are exceptional at tying up shooty squads, or playing interference with assaulty models.



> And to top it all you don't buy wargear for characters but randomly generate it. For some stupid reason GW seems to have got it into their head that random = good, which it really isn't


Not going to lie, this was a little weird in my eyes as well. I think the wargear available to Daemons is a lot better than my wargear and the random nature adds some balance to it. 



> Against most weapons the daemon is as durable as the conscript.


Not true. Most weapons have at least AP5, which would wipe Conscripts out without thinking. A round of bolter shots with 6 wounds would equal 6 IG casualties. A round of bolter shots with 6 wounds would equal (on average) 4 casualties with Tzeentch Daemons. Out of a squad of 20 that adds up. And this assuming there were no 1s rolled. But like I said earlier, most Tzeentch units have access to Warpflame, which balances them out.



> You also have Daemonic instability which is fine in fantasy due to big units, not so much in 40k.


Yes this is a weakness for sure. Daemons are hard to kill, this makes it a little easier.



> Daemons are still fundamentally a CC army in a shooty edition. Generally it seems GW panickedwhen they saw how cheesy some of the list were when allied so cut them, it would have been nice to at least leave crushers and flamers viable


I still see Bloodcrushers and flamers as being very viable. But let's be honest, breath of chaos was overpowered before. Beyond OP. Just because Flamers are not guaranteed Terminator killers doesn't make them not viable. They have a role, terminator slayer is not it. That is what Screamers are for. And any Slaanesh unit. Were they nerfed, no doubt. But an entire squad of template shooting 2-wound models is scary, even if they don't ignore armor and can't wound/glance a vehicle to death on a 4+. Even with str4 ap4 the law of averages will result in many wounds, and some of them being failed saves. And in terms of Bloodcrushers we are talking Cavalry now. Hammer of Wrath, move 12", and re-roll charge distance. They can get into combat a lot faster now, which is where they excel. Nerfed, yes. Balanced, yes. I just don't think it is as bad as you are making it out to be.




Svartmetall said:


> That's not an army, that's just one potential part of it. If you don't like Tzeentch, that doesn't apply. Likewise your quoting Skarbrand's stat line - that's just one very expensive HQ choice.
> 
> Ditto.


Your only argument is my incorrect use of a word? And I am not reading Skarbrand's stat line. All Tzeentch daemons re-roll save rolls of 1.



> What on earth are you talking about...? And how about the Warp Storm table, which you _must_ roll on and that can see a huge amount of your own army decimated or even _completely destroyed_ (via Daemonic Instability) or having their only save chance halved at the start of every Shooting phase without the opponent having to lift a finger?


 I am talking about the warp storm table. 4 of the 12 options allow you to target each unengaged enemy unit, as well as that god's enemy, but that is called balance. Or how about their invulnerable save increased. Or removing an enemy psyker and adding one of your heralds? Or another free squad of your own troops? You have great benefits, and some things to balance those benefits out.



> This Codex is fatally reliant upon random dice rolls, which will prevent the building of any coherent or reliable lists, and has far too many built-in random factors that could kill or at the very least seriously weaken your own army. I think it's going to get a very frosty reception from a lot of people because of these 'features'.


It is buffed by random features. And those buffs are so powerful they are balanced out by the negative. You complain about Daemonic Instability but ignore the fact that it has the chance to undo ALL WOUNDS LOST DURING THAT ROUND. So you get into close combat with a group of Daemons, kill all but two of the 20, they roll snake eyes and all 18 models are back on the table. And it is just as likely for that to happen as the opposite. And how is that any different than an expensive group of Dark Eldar/eldar/any other non Marine assault units taking a single wound, failing their morale check, and getting caught in a Sweeping Advance and are ALL DEAD. Except, when you fail your morale check you only lose a couple of models (5 wounds at most, and you still get your invulnerable save IIRC).


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Relax; You shall have your revenge.










Also: furbies are daemons. Didn't you all already know that?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Chaos Daemons = random = win/loss means less because either can be caused by random dumb ass luck.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

psactionman said:


> Yes this is a weakness for sure. Daemons are hard to kill, this makes it a little easier.


Not necessarily, T3 or 4 with a +5 invulnerable is as hard to kill as T3 or 4 with a +5 cover save against weapons that don't deny cover. Its not that hard when you think about it, all daemons can do is ignore the ap of most guns and close combat weapons.



psactionman said:


> I am talking about the warp storm table. 4 of the 12 options allow you to target each unengaged enemy unit, as well as that god's enemy, but that is called balance.


Actually, for all of those four you have a 17% chance to activate the effect on each unengaged unit it applies to. Then you have to scatter, and in some cases hope it scatters off your stuff and into an enemy. There is no guarantee of that, this potentially punishes your army choice with bad rolls.



psactionman said:


> Or how about their invulnerable save increased.


Theres only about an 8% chance of getting this though, the same chance as having your save reduced.



psactionman said:


> Or removing an enemy psyker and adding one of your heralds?


Theres only a 5.5% chance of getting this, coupled with the fact that the enemy unit has to fail a leadership test. These are the same odds and conditions that can occur to your own such leaders.

Also this can only apply if your opponent takes a psyker by the way, otherwise its another unhelpful result.



psactionman said:


> Or another free squad of your own troops?


There is only a 2.8% chance of this one, the same odds as having to test for instability for your whole army.



psactionman said:


> You have great benefits, and some things to balance those benefits out.


On that table daemons have a 16.7% chance of getting outright harmful results, a 50% chance of the chance to harm themselves, the enemy, or nothing at all, a 16.7% chance of nothing happening (22.3% if no enemy psykers are present), and a 16.7% chance of something generally good happening to the daemons (11.1% if no enemy psykers.)

Daemons have some nice stuff on that table, but it'll be doing more harm or nothing at all than it will be helping them.


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Chaos Daemons = random = win/loss means less because either can be caused by random dumb ass luck.


The whole game is dumb luck. Sometimes your units abilities help alleviate bad luck, but the fact is your success in the game is 1 part not-being-an-idiot and 3 parts rolling the right numbers on the dice. An entire squad of Terminators can be killed by anything, even Grots or Hormagaunts, if you roll nothing but 1s. It is all luck.



darkreever said:


> Not necessarily, T3 or 4 with a +5 invulnerable is as hard to kill as T3 or 4 with a +5 cover save against weapons that don't deny cover. Its not that hard when you think about it, all daemons can do is ignore the ap of most guns and close combat weapons.


That is true. But put those same units in open space and it is a different story. Being able to move around the table and not be limited by needing access to cover from all sides is a great benefit. A great benefit no other army has access to.



> Actually, for all of those four you have a 17% chance to activate the effect on each unengaged unit it applies to. Then you have to scatter, and in some cases hope it scatters off your stuff and into an enemy. There is no guarantee of that, this potentially punishes your army choice with bad rolls.


Same for my army choice. Every shot with a plasma gun puts me at risk to kill myself. And now even my Vehicles are at risk. Dark Angels are all about plasma, which can kill me. Great benefit with a little risk. Its not out of character.



> Theres only about an 8% chance of getting this though, the same chance as having your save reduced.


Truth. Same chance to have something good happen. Balance.



> Theres only a 5.5% chance of getting this, coupled with the fact that the enemy unit has to fail a leadership test. These are the same odds and conditions that can occur to your own such leaders.


Has to fail a Leadership test on 3d6. Ask anyone who has tried to use psychic powers against Eldar, Tyranids, or faced the Doom of Malan'tai how easy it is to pass a Leadership test on 3d6.



> On that table daemons have a 16.7% chance of getting outright harmful results, a 50% chance of the chance to harm themselves, the enemy, or nothing at all, a 16.7% chance of nothing happening (22.3% if no enemy psykers are present), and a 16.7% chance of something generally good happening to the daemons (11.1% if no enemy psykers.)
> 
> Daemons have some nice stuff on that table, but it'll be doing more harm or nothing at all than it will be helping them.


Love the statistics. I think it is unfair to lump the good with the neutral though. Seeing as 4 of those (I don't have the codex on me so I cannot calculate the exact percentage) have a higher percentage to hurt your enemy than to hurt yourself. Each different happening will attack every enemy unit, but only has the chance to hit 1/4 of your possible selections. So if you go with an all-1-god list then only 1 of those possibilities will actually hurt you, but the other 3 will still kill your enemies. And for every unit from another god you take you lose that chance on that result, and replace it with another. So it actually works out the same, or less, with a multiple god list. And you can buy an upgrade to let you re-roll that on your own units.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I am genuinely concerned that my entire demon army will have to find a home within my csms, and never play on their own. It looks like a vehicle to get skarbrand and soulgrinders on the table, and maybe some demonettes in support of my CSM's. Although what I am going to do with the 5 demonic MC's I used to use is beyond me. As for my bloodcrushers, maybe i can use them as csm bikers or something. That said i have ordered the dex, i will see what the cold light of day reveals.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

psactionman said:


> I think it is unfair to lump the good with the neutral though. Seeing as 4 of those (I don't have the codex on me so I cannot calculate the exact percentage) have a higher percentage to hurt your enemy than to hurt yourself. Each different happening will attack every enemy unit, but only has the chance to hit 1/4 of your possible selections. So if you go with an all-1-god list then only 1 of those possibilities will actually hurt you, but the other 3 will still kill your enemies. And for every unit from another god you take you lose that chance on that result, and replace it with another. So it actually works out the same, or less, with a multiple god list.


At first I was like 'what is he talking about?' And then I reread the entry and realized previously I had had a brainfart, missing the bit where it targets all unengaged enemy units.

Yeah that definitely makes it a fair bit better than I had originally thought.

On percentages, you have about an 11% chance of getting the Nurgle or Slaanesh targeted results and about a 14% chance for the Tzeentch and Khorne ones.


It looks like the results effect your enemy regardless of whether your affected, so I would argue that multi-god actually hurts your more then helps since your just increasing the chance to harm yourself.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

psactionman said:


> The whole game is dumb luck So when my opponent sends a single unit in front of my entire army and he losses his HQ and attached squad its luck? Here I thought he was making a tactical error, but I guess it was just dumb luck.. Sometimes your units abilities help alleviate bad luck, but the fact is your success in the game is 1 part not-being-an-idiot and 3 parts rolling the right numbers on the dice. An entire squad of Terminators can be killed by anything, even Grots or Hormagaunts, if you roll nothing but 1s. It is all luck. Yah but the more random something becomes the less dependent on skill it is. So ask me this if this is really the case then why do you see a absence of weird boys/chaos spawn ect in games? Its because the more random something is the less reliable it is and the more variable its performance is. Building a army around randomness is dumb, even ork players that love a good laugh don't take massed weirdboys, bomb squigs ect because they know it can hurt more then help at times.
> 
> 
> That is true. But put those same units in open space and it is a different story. Being able to move around the table and not be limited by needing access to cover from all sides is a great benefit. A great benefit no other army has access to. ....You know why this is? Its because almost all the armies units are CC oriented so they can't ever rely on cover (Gaurd don't need this as they should almost always be in cover). Is it a strength? No not really as a 5+ is a shit save, but then again I would actuary prefer a armor save if it made the units 2-3pts cheaper. Must ppl know how unreliable a 5+ is on a CC only unit (Tyranids). For instance for 17pts I can have a marine with a 3+ armor and the ability to deal 2-4 out attacks each. Will a 5+ save really help? No but daemons are now a swarm army so they may as well have no save as they where designed to be used like CC gaurd in never ending waves.
> ...


Now despite the fact that I don't agree with your delusional optimism and contempt for statistical fact I actually think the book is balanced, but for none of the reasons you mention. Its defiantly mid tier, but its still a step up from the random deep striking bullshit of last edition (Which is to be expected considering this is the newest army of the 40k range). The army overall is more or less just a wonkier version of what nids are, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sure for a CC army they are about as durable as a paper bag half the time, but the immunity to panic/fear/ect means that at least shooting armies will be terrified by a horde of 200 daemons surging across the board. However; this is also what kills the army for me. Sure you can make a perfectly competitive army with Chaos Daemons but it costs almost as much as a gaurd army and that means its well out of my tax bracket.

Sorry if I sound overly nagative its just I hate peaple that say nothing is wrong and point to the few things that are wrong and act like they are strenghts. It happened when the CSM book released and I am I will be damned if I let someone suger coat the reality of the situation, but just like the CSM book their is a fair amount of good in the codex, but how much and how effective it is is yet to be seen


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Lukevalentine, lets remember I never said nothing was wrong with it. I just don't think it is as bad as everyone in this thread is making it out to be. The random nature of the wargear is unnecessary, T3 on a Bloodletter is ridiculous, and WS1 on Kairos is just stupid. And no, those aren't strengths. I have never meant to say that all of these things are strengths, they are not. I recognize they are weaknesses, which is required for balance.

I am also not blindly saying it is balanced. I don't have to play test a thousand times to know it is balanced. All you have to do is read the whole book and make a judgment call from there. Wow, this unit has an epic ability but is expensive. Balance. Or this other unit is cheap, but has these weaknesses with one cool ability/stats. Balance. I also find it amusing that right after you lecture me about calling the book balanced you make the same claim...

And I think your opponent getting his HQ and retinue killed off first turn by sending them right up the middle with no support is covered by the 1 part not-being-an-idiot in the how to be successful equation. 

Statistically speaking the army is not weak. I'm confused where these statistic facts you are claiming I am ignoring are coming from.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

So basically... the biggest complaint everyone seems to have with the book is its sheer randomness, that the op'ed crap from previous edition has been nerfed, and that they've turned an elite army into a horde army? 

No wonder people are pissed.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Turning it into a horde army? No problem with that. Works more at a fluff stand point, havent really read a story where a small elite task force of daemons appeared to tactically destroy a target, most stories i have read tend to go like this

- Chaos Space Marines \ Warriors of Chaos appear
- They Summon Daemons
- SO MANY DAEMONS! OH NO! YOU ATE MY FACE!! *gurgle gurgle... die*

Now on a more serious note, there is a lot of experience on these forums and there are few people here i will actually listen to, so far from these people i have gathered the following: 

- The Army is Fun
- It can be too random which can spoil some things
- say good bye to your old cookie cutter list

On the note of number 2, how many times have you gone in thinking "I can win this fight with my beat stick" for it to turn around and bite you in the arse? Yes it can be more apparent with Daemons but it happens at least once with EVERY army. No problems with me from the above list of changes.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Also, don't forget: you aren't bound by using the exact rules for the exact models. Most do, but if you want to have daemons that use the daemonette rules but are nurgly, then convert nurgly daemons that have massive claws, etc. 

Too many people miss out on massive opportunities by feeling bound by model restrictions. For a long time I had a mono-slaaneshi army and used almost all the different daemon rules, including having epic daemonettes as nurglings...

It's chaos. Get a little chaotic...


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

Some people actually like to play their models the way they're intended to be played. Just because you're ok putting big claws on plaguebearers and calling them daemonettes doesn't mean everyone else is. I don't like the idea myself.

Here nor there, though. What I want to know is why is there absolutely no coverage of the fantasy army book? Do they have warp storm in fantasy? Did they actually get soul grinders? Are all the upgrades random in fantasy? Come on guys.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Chosen of Malal said:


> Some people actually like to play their models the way they're intended to be played. Just because you're ok putting big claws on plaguebearers and calling them daemonettes doesn't mean everyone else is. I don't like the idea myself.
> 
> Here nor there, though. What I want to know is why is there absolutely no coverage of the fantasy army book? Do they have warp storm in fantasy? Did they actually get soul grinders? Are all the upgrades random in fantasy? Come on guys.


maybe you could pop along to your local store and pick up a copy and share with us whats changed in the fantasy book.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

From my understanding, the fantasy books been hit the same with the randomness etc... but seems theres not much covereage since its not 40k.

As for SilverTabby's point of using different models as proxies, as thats kinda what it is... I don't see whats wrong with that. So long as you tell the other person before hand, and theres no distinct advantage of using the model as something else... 'Ie, claiming a nurgling is a soulgrinder' to give a daft example, why should people be all butthurt over it?

Personally.. I think nurgle models look like crap, but why should I be forced to not use their rules because I dislike the models and don't want to use them?


Edit: Typically... whinseers deamon thread is people complaining about stores having gotten the books early, rather then the actual content of said book... WTF do people still go there?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

WFB version seems almost identical with a similar warp table, similar upgrades/powers and generally it just feels like the same army.
I for one am just totally put off my wfb daemon army: it was only ever a bit of fun for my 40k armies to go play fantasy with occasionally and the new book is pretty dire.

Best thing for the fantasy book is that the lesser gift for heralds of slaanesh gives immunity to dangerous terrain and _all_ characteristic tests (except leadership). That means the unit would be immune to dwellers, pit of shades and purple sun... which is awesome, but you sacrifice ASF and whatever the other gift is.


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## crimson skull (Aug 3, 2008)

The fantasy book is almost identical to the 40k one but with fantasy rules instead.

A couple of major changes i have noted so far is that greater daemons are now 400 points or 375 for slaanesh and nurgle and the stats are exactly the same as 40k.

Flesh hounds can now take the ambushers deployment rule for 3 points per model so quite nasty.
They are now 30 points not 35.

The magic is similar to warriors in that tzeentch can also take lore of metal nurgle lore of death and slaanesh lore of shadow so very different.

The random warp storm chart is done in the magic phase and is not as horrible as the 40k one also taking into account you can take larger units so not as big an impact.

I cannot remember the exact points from the last book but some things are cheaper and some more expensive like bloodletters are now 14 points instead of 12 but daemonettes are 11 points so it kinda balances out.

Flamers haven't changed but are 40 points.

drones are awesome as you would expect.

Yes soul grinders are in the fantasy list and pretty much the same as the update and can take marks.

heralds of nurgle can still give regenerate as well as poison on a 5+ or an extra s4 hit if you roll a 6 to hit.

Khorne heralds can now give their unit hatred, frenzy or magic rez 2.

slaanesh heralds can give their unit always strike first, the ability to always pass characteristic tests, dangerous terrain and look out sirs all one locus lol, she can also force an enemy character to accept a challenge and you choose who accepts and they fight at -3 initiative.

Tzeentch heralds can make the unit roll a d6 at the start of the turn and that's their strength for the turn, they place d3+1 blue horror tokens against an enemy when a horror dies and can add +1 strength to any spells cast by them.

The skull cannon of khorne is amazing as it can move and fire, is strength 10 does d6 wounds and has the flaming attacks special rule and is a chariot s5 t5 3+ armour all for a bargain 135 points!

All in all the book is really good.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

So what I don't understand is, I thought the old 40k codex was bad? And if so, how can people complain about old OP stuff when that seems like the only thing that made them worth playing, and therfore if those OP things have been taken away then does that not make them bad? Especially when you factor in the potential randomness. Is this right? Or am I just thinking I read stuff I didn't

Same goes for fantasy but the other way around, I actually know they were good (as I played with them much more) and they have become more balanced by taking away these things and the randomness doesn't make the army suffer as much because it is different to 40k and units are generally bigger


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

People moaned about the old dex because of the randomness: it made the army unreliable and poor in a tournament setting.
The flip side of being random though is that when everything works its horrendous... add that to the update that uber powered flamers and screamers and you have an army that could quite easily table others.

With the new army being even more random there is likely to be more anger over it being even more unreliable... or I think more likely, a lot of players beginning to leave their daemons army in a cupboard, especially for tzeentch players which I think is almost unplayable as a mono-god force.

In WFB daemons are still good, but some of the more common builds have been removed (such as the terror/stupid bomb) but I think we'll still see plenty of daemon armies about. Personally I'm stopping playing fantasy daemons just because I already have too many daemon armies and I'm not willing to alter my list, the units I have on square bases or to buy extra new stuff...


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Yes Tim/Steve. They tipped the balance with the update and it went too far. Screamers/flamers went from being too unreliable to too reliable. My Daemon friend wiped out a full Deathwing Knights Squad AND a Ravenwing Squad with 1 round of shooting. 6 models rounded up 48 hits and 30 wounds that ignored all armor and cover, so the Ravenwing was screwed immediately, and my Knights had no chance, even with a 3++. They were too powerful. And Screamers are the only models with AP 2 weapons without an initiative penalty. But, i also think they went too far with Flamers. I think Flamers should be able to choose 1 of the Heavy Flame attacks available, I just don't think they are unplayable.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

screamers and flamers are still decent.... its the rest of the tzeentch list being psychic based and slowly giving enemies FNP additions with no way for tzeentch to ignore it. If WFB its fair because it gives regen that a lot of tzeentch ignores.. but if a tzeentch army plays against anything with either psychic defence or decent FNP already then they're screwed (imagine death company with 3+ save and 3+FNP... which is quite possible).


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Yeah, I get that. My Daemon friend is not looking forward to fighting me since I play DA and SW. Nial's special rule is devastating to psykers, and having a psychic hood on Ezekiel to back that up is pretty nice.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> Also, don't forget: you aren't bound by using the exact rules for the exact models. Most do, but if you want to have daemons that use the Daemonette rules but are Nurgly, then convert Nurgly daemons that have massive claws, etc.
> 
> It's chaos. Get a little chaotic...


Very true; I was discussing the Codex with a guy in work today, and ended up thinking of what is hopefully a rather nice way to make a Nurgle model that uses the Skull Cannon rules. In the same way, with the old CD 'dex I was thinking of using the Plague Riders on Plague Toads with Bloodcrusher rules...


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> maybe you could pop along to your local store and pick up a copy and share with us whats changed in the fantasy book.


I don't have the expendable income to just hop an hour drive to my nearest game store to pick up a 50 dollar book, just to see if I might be interested in the new rules. It comes shrink wrapped now.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Chosen of Malal said:


> I don't have the expendable income to just hop an hour drive to my nearest game store to pick up a 50 dollar book, just to see if I might be interested in the new rules. It comes shrink wrapped now.


this. this. this. a million times this.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Today I had a few seconds as I chased a small toddler around WHW to look at the Daemons codex. I got to see 2 pages, and they made me happy. You know why? Khorne and Slaanesh daemons hate each other. So do tzeentch and nurgle ones. 

This gives me confidence that the writer *gets* it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Chosen of Malal said:


> I don't have the expendable income to just hop an hour drive to my nearest game store to pick up a 50 dollar book, just to see if I might be interested in the new rules. It comes shrink wrapped now.


typical Malal follower response


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Chosen of Malal said:


> I don't have the expendable income to just hop an hour drive to my nearest game store to pick up a 50 dollar book, just to see if I might be interested in the new rules. It comes shrink wrapped now.


Every book in my local GW shop has a "Shop Copy" that is open and you can browse it for as long as you like.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> typical Malal follower response


shhhh... Don't mention the war. I mean Malal.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

SilverTabby said:


> Today I had a few seconds as I chased a small toddler around WHW to look at the Daemons codex. I got to see 2 pages, and they made me happy.


Hah brilliant image in my head of a not so jock-like or mean Biff from back to the future taking a book from a kid (not that I think you did it in an unkind way, just the image that appeared):grin:


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> typical Malal follower response


You seem to like to pick on me quite a bit. My "local" shop isn't a GW, I live in Tennessee and would have to drive across the state to get to an official GW, so there is no 'shop copy' to be heard of.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> typical Malal follower response


that came across as rather passive aggressive, dismissive and condescending when I read it. Now, I don't know you for being a nice guy, but could you at least avoid being -so- rude?


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Adramalech said:


> that came across as rather passive aggressive, dismissive and condescending when I read it. Now, I don't know you for being a nice guy, but could you at least avoid being -so- rude?


i thought it was quite a witty comment considering who malal is. Didn't read it as a slight or insult at all.

Maybe people should just stop being to defensive on this fandangled interweb thingy. Not every one is out to get you (unlike IRL)


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

effigy22 said:


> i thought it was quite a witty comment considering who malal is. Didn't read it as a slight or insult at all.
> 
> Maybe people should just stop being to defensive on this fandangled interweb thingy. Not every one is out to get you (unlike IRL)


this. this. this. a million times this.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> this. this. this. a million times this.


Bits, do try to remember that dry British humour does pass over the heads of our cousins across the pond. Its what happens when you spend so long away from the common wealth.

(please be aware my American compatriots, yes that was a joke and not a dig at you... Well maybe a bit of both )


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

ANYWAY - Daemons - will update my post about the fantasy version of the book later today, I have had more time to read and will mention things I missed before. All in all, fluff is cool, rules balanced and randomness adds to the game (in fantasy that is, not so much in 40k).


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Shrink wrapped? None of the ones in WHW were shrink wrapped....


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> Shrink wrapped? None of the ones in WHW were shrink wrapped....


He is referencing the Fantasy ones. I think.

As for me I have very mied feelings about the book. However I will say that the Changeling is even more hilarious in the fluff now than he was in the last book. New stunts include impersonating Lord Commander Solar Marcharius, planting Nurgling's on Khorne's throne in the equivalent of a whoopee cushion prank and possibly corrupting the first ever Grey Knight.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

But the fantasy ones weren't wrapped either...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> But the fantasy ones weren't wrapped either...


When my (new) FLGS got the books in the Fantasy ones were shrink wrapped but the 40k ones were not.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

effigy22 said:


> Bits, do try to remember that dry British humour does pass over the heads of our cousins across the pond. Its what happens when you spend so long away from the common wealth.
> 
> (please be aware my American compatriots, yes that was a joke and not a dig at you... Well maybe a bit of both )


Take my advice. Don't quit your day job.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

well i have both the deamon books and neither were shrink wrapped, but when all is said and done, i was suggesting that as we are a 40k heavy forum it would be nice for someone whos interested in the fantasy side of the hobby to go pick up a copy and give us a run down of the contents, but as that seems to have offended some people i will say "i am truly sorry your offended".
my comment about Malal followers was a joke and if you thought it was passive aggressive and all those other fancy words Adramalech used to describe it then again "im sorry you were offended".

enjoying the books so far, dont like the fact they have used mr blanches artwork alot , dont like his style at all, though i suppose it fits best with deamons than with other armies so its not a great loss,i really prefer the hard back codex/armybooks over the old soft covers.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I'm chewing my way through the 40k book now, and so far I'm not seeing anything terrible. it's gone from elite to hoarde, but given how fragile daemons are is that really a bad thing? Bit miffed my force misses out on a named GD, but no biggie.

The warpstorm chart is not as terrible as everyone makes out. Only 2 results are actually bad, the rest can be mostly negated by taking instruments of chaos on *everything* that can take them. Plus it'll only hit a select few of your units each time if you play many gods, and only 1 result of the 4 is bad if you play monogod. Whereas each result potentially hits *all* enemy units that qualify...

And I love that losing a combat can result in all your casualties reappearing again... :biggrin:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Oh, and if I'm remembering the numbers right, they've snuck the sacred numbers for each god into that chart. Tzeentch: S4 AP5 hits - adds up to 9. Slaanesh: S6 AP- , makes 6. Nurgle: S4 AP3 makes 7. The only one that strays is Khorne, which has the correct S8 but also AP3... But I'm sure theres some way that's valid...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> Oh, and if I'm remembering the numbers right, they've snuck the sacred numbers for each god into that chart. Tzeentch: S4 AP5 hits - adds up to 9. Slaanesh: S6 AP- , makes 6. Nurgle: S4 AP3 makes 7. The only one that strays is Khorne, which has the correct S8 but also AP3... But I'm sure theres some way that's valid...


8*3=24 and is a multiple of 8.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> well i have both the deamon books and neither were shrink wrapped, but when all is said and done, i was suggesting that as we are a 40k heavy forum it would be nice for someone whos interested in the fantasy side of the hobby to go pick up a copy and give us a run down of the contents, but as that seems to have offended some people i will say "i am truly sorry your offended".
> my comment about Malal followers was a joke and if you thought it was passive aggressive and all those other fancy words Adramalech used to describe it then again "im sorry you were offended".
> 
> enjoying the books so far, dont like the fact they have used mr blanches artwork alot , dont like his style at all, though i suppose it fits best with deamons than with other armies so its not a great loss,i really prefer the hard back codex/armybooks over the old soft covers.


Apology accepted, but I'm not going to stop being mad until you supplicate me with a burnt offering of 10,000 virgins.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

:shok: Why burn them? 

In fact, just send them to me, I can think of far better things to do than burning them:spiteful:


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> :shok: Why burn them?
> 
> In fact, just send them to me, I can think of far better things to do than burning them:spiteful:


right now, I am imagining you outside an all girls catholic school saying "hello little girl, would you like to be... Corrupted?"


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> 8*3=24 and is a multiple of 8.


Of course it is. You times 8 by any number and you get a multiple of 8. But by that logic, why not make it AP1? Then you'd actually have 8...

I'm sure there's a fluff reason for the 3 somewhere. Nurgles symbol has 3 circles, is there a Khorne symbol or character for whom the number 3 is important?


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

effigy22 said:


> right now, I am imagining you outside an all girls catholic school saying "hello little girl, would you like to be... Corrupted?"


catholic school girls are in fact where are all corruption in the world stems from.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Adramalech said:


> Apology accepted, but I'm not going to stop being mad until you supplicate me with a burnt offering of 10,000 virgins.


But if we burn 10,000 Virgins, thats a huge chunk of GW's market gone instantly!


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

Bindi Baji said:


> catholic school girls are in fact where are all corruption in the world stems from.


Well the school boys get all the attention from the staff, so the schoolgirls need to find their fun elsewhere.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

GrizBe said:


> But if we burn 10,000 Virgins, thats a huge chunk of GW's market gone instantly!


No, GW's average customer is a married person usually with kids. On the other hand PAX would be pretty empty next year.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> Of course it is. You times 8 by any number and you get a multiple of 8. But by that logic, why not make it AP1? Then you'd actually have 8...
> 
> I'm sure there's a fluff reason for the 3 somewhere. Nurgles symbol has 3 circles, is there a Khorne symbol or character for whom the number 3 is important?


Alternatively could just be coincidence?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> Alternatively could just be coincidence?


Or they may just have struggled with a way to get 8 in and have it sufficiently good. S5 AP3 doesn't have the same ring to it on a small blast...

Meh. I saw something that I believe has been deliberately put in. If I get the chance next week, I'll ask Jeremy...


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> :shok: Why burn them?
> 
> In fact, just send them to me, I can think of far better things to do than burning them:spiteful:


They're my virgins and I say they're going to be a burnt offering, so that when they arrive at my side -I- can deflower them.

Oh, and they all have to be men. I feel I should mention that before anyone wastes too much effort kidnapping nuns.


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