# IG vs. Nids, how to stop the swarm?



## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

Ok I got tabled in a 1500 point game last time I played the asshole of our store. During our campaign I got challenged again and honestly I have no idea what to bring. I have a lot at my disposal, and if I don't I will go find it. He wants to do 2k this Friday...I really, REALLY hate this guy but I would lose a territory if I declined the challenge. Help me help me!


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Questions: 
What do you have in your list?
What does he use?
Any other info you can give?


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

What I have:

2 Vendettas
2 Leman Russ
2 Manticore
3 Chimeras
1 Hellhound
3 Sentinels
100 troops
4 Heavy/Regular Flamers
8 Grenade Launcers
Heavy Weapon Teams- 3 Lascannons, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Autocannon, 4 Missile Launchers
5 Ogryns
2 Commissars
Straken
Nork
Harker
Marbo
Aegis Line and quad gun
Whatever else I need to buy...

What he has (what he brought last time, don't laugh I'm not too sure what is what):
Tyrannofex (or whatever shoots a turret of acid)
2 Carnifex
2 Flying Hive Tyrants (one flew and killed my vendettas, the other flew and killed things in cc and was his warlord)
2 Zoanthropes (think this is what gave him a 2+ cover with an aegis line)
Termagants
Hormagaunts
Whatever breeds more nids

I'm still "new" and don't know exactly what things are called so I looked on the GW website and tried to guess. We are playing "The Relic" and then 3 other objectives as secondary ones. Last time he kept everything behind the aegis line until he came out and killed everyone with the acid spray and then killed all my troops in cc with two flyers. I still am not sure how the hell he did it, other than taking advantage of rules I was unaware of like 2+ saves that ignore my lascannon shots...


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

No worries on not knowing what everything is. The thing that breeds nids is called a tervigon. The zoanthropes are the flying heads that shoot warp blasts. The things that give cover saves are called venomthropes.

I'd say a solid start would be a few platoons, your fliers and then large templates. Sprinkle plasma vets as desired


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Ok(Cracks Knuckles), this is my field of specialty right here. :so_happy: Our common foe is a BEOTCH of epic proportion that will require Brute Force or the touch of a feather duster to defeat. Like you the Nid is a cheaop creature, and most of his models do not require a high-point value unless he has invested points in upgrades. In this light you will, if you study the Nid Codex, which units are his heavy hitters and which are his piece-meal. Thus you'll either epically rape him silly or his abominations will eat you for a tea time snack.

Your first option is the Dig In and Gun It Out!! tactic. For this you want squads of purely Range Firepower. Infantry should be equipted with Plasma's, and if you have them bring the Karskins. If your playing House rules try and bring Tallerans/Vahallans along woth Stub guns for added support. Then invest heavily in heavy weapons teams; Stubbers, Bolters, Autocannons, Las-Cannons, and even a Mortar squad if you feel comfortable. Make sure to bring a balance as you will need to be able to dish it out to the bigger Carnifex's and such, also bring a Hydra for AA-defence. Final;ly found out your army with some Leman Russ's for mobile firepower, or bring a good command squad. Additionally I'd recommend Hark, Creed, or Straken for this group with a Catachan Command Squad. Reason being if the fether brings Lictors you will need to be able to swift eliminate this threat before it tackles your gunline. 

Your second option if the Airborne Assault tactic; which is very risky. You will need to take a squad or two of basic Troopers with Chimera support; maybe a heavy weapons squad or two. Along with your command squad(or an additional squad) keep them and a Leman Russ/Vanquisher in a solid defense. Then take your Valkerie(or two if you can afford it) and drop StormTroopers/Karskin/or Veteran Squad on one of the flanks behind the Nid lines and away from any Carnifex's. The idea is to let the Nids throw themselves upon one gorup or the other while the oppose group fires into them. It also buys time to eliminate the Elites and Heavies IOT even the playing field. 

Thirdly you can try the good old Arty Line tactic; which is pure fun when used right. It is your choice whether to take Heavies or Troop choice but have a decent defense line backed with a Leman Russ/Vanquisher or two. Then purchase a shit load of Arty, Mortars, SPG's, Basalicks, and anything that can throw high-explosive ordinance at thee Nids. The obvious conclusion here is that you pound them into dust and let your heavies/Lemans deal with the Elites/Carnifex's. It has it's risks, mainly your arty getting Infiltrated or Deep Striked from behind, but if you play your cards right and have good dice rolls your Nids freind will be eating "Cold Steel"

For fun you can always try a Melee Blitzkreig tactic; though it is very, very high risk and should only be done by experienced Guard players(even I only used it once with moderate success). The idea behind this is Armor mixed with Melee Guard/Allies. You will need plenty of Leman Russ with Chimera's, and I would recommend a Valkery if you can afford it. Then spend the points on a few Power-Fist equipted squads, Stormtroopers, or cheap Penals for body count. Make sure you get the armor upgrades for your tanks and firepower boosts for Chimera's/Tanks. 

Your battle lines should run staggered with Tanks in front and Chimera's in the gaps. Then rush forward, having the tanks flank and fire as they go. Have the Chimera's pund for the center and disgorge their cargo, making use of their firing points for as long as they can. Once your tanks have cirlces take the heavies head on and get rid of them fast. Once thats complete you should be able to position them comfortably and piece-meal Nids squads easily. Again, practice it before trying; you've been warned. 

Finally, and my personal favorite, is the Body Count Pile tactic. As cold as it sounds the name says it all.....you will suffer casualties. The idea is to develop lines of defense starting with your weakest(and honestly body bag) units in front and developing towards the back. Make use of Terrian if their is any, and center your strongest units in the back. Generally I favor a Penal Legion or Two mixed with Catachan Guardsmen for some early CQC. My mid-line is always range, making use of Troopers with Melle units mixed; maybe a Leman or Two. Then in the back I throw my heavies, Lemans/Vanquishers/Executioners/ Arty, and Command squad sitting right in front. General idea behind this tactic is to sacrifice the weak to buy time and slow the enemy down. I often elect to fire into my guys when possible and kill as many Guants/Termies/Horma's/and Elites as I can. I usually target Carnifex's/SwarmLords, and any big "Man-Killa" units first with range before my two front lines collapse. The one weaknesss to this is your vunerable from Arty attack, meaning watch for Herbivores/Biovores and Spores..........KILL ALL SPORES!!!!!

Anyway those are some general approaches to taking on Nids. The gist is to throw units in their way and slaughter them; wearing them down as they go. Another common point is to kill Heavies/Elites(particularly Carnifex's) quickly before they are a threat. If you can afford it make use of Allies for some additional firepower. Also, if your playing House rules, push for Forge World units. There are tons of them that make great Nid eaters 

Best of luck mate, slaughter all the Xeno's in the name of the Emporer. Remember in a tight situation the following applies....


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Let's break this down into some workable pieces:

Venomthropes. These are the nasties that give Shrouded to any unit within 6" of them, so they'd be the ones buffing the Aegis Line. What do you have that ignores cover, then, is my question? Well, apart from loading a platoon command squad with flamers into the Vendettas then offloading them to flame at point blank range, which would take around 3 turns...

Let's see how we can get shots on the far side of the ADL, so he only gets the 5+ cover from Shrouded, rather than getting 4+ from the ADL with +2 from Shrouded. How do we do that? Artillery! Barrage weapons determine cover from the center of the hole in the template, so if the template is centered on the enemy's side of the ADL... those are some squishy Venomthropes, being Instant Deathed by the S10 with only a 5+ cover save to rescue them. Unless your enemy has them camped in area terrain themselves, in which case flamers might be a better bet: vets unloading flamers, the hellhound, what have you.

An interesting fellow basically custom-made to remove threats like Venomthropes-out-of-cover could well be Marbo, popping up where-ever you want him and lobbing a S8 large blast template with relatively good accuracy. Also excellent for nuking squads of Warriors.

Removing the buffs that the Venomthropes grant is important, but so is taking out those Hive Tyrants. If your opponent is running them kitted for melee, they're likely less deadly than the twin-linked deathspitter version (12 BS 4 twin-linked S6 shots apiece... *shudder*), but they still have the mobility to be target priority number one. They are, without fail, the target you want to focus your stuff with Skyfire on: your quad gun, your Vendettas when they come in. Gang up on one Hive Tyrant until you wipe it off the map (your Vendettas' lascannons are excellent for putting wounds on them). If you can't ground them with Skyfire, snap fire with little things like Chimeras and platoon command squads until you get a hit and ground them--or use your orders to good effect (at the start of the phase, mind, so you can't have fired your Skyfire stuff [with the exception of using an order on the squad firing the quad gun]) to twin-link your heavy weapon snap shots against the flyers, or to first-rank second-rank in order to ground them through sheer weight of shots. If you have grounded a Hive Tyrant, or if it butchered one of your squads during its assault and now you get to shoot at it on the ground during your shooting phase, you should be able to melt it to a crisp.

Let's look at what the Vendettas might achieve: 4 or 5 hits, on average, with 6 twin-linked BS3 lascannons, let's say 4 wounds. That's a dead Tyrant unless the enemy evades, so let's say about 2 or 3 wounds, with a decent chance of grounding them (and causing another wound). Throw in a quad gun and its likely to be a dead tyrant, what with two chances to ground in there now, plus a bevy of S7 shots tearing it up (not even counting the rest of the unit shooting alongside the quad-gunner!). Take out one of those flyers the turn you come in from reserve and you're looking to be in a better position!

A word of advice on the Tervigons: when they die, they cause wounds on termigaunt squads nearby. So they make excellent targets, should you have taken out the venomthropes buffing their cover to obscene levels.

It sounds like your opponent is deploying the ADL pretty far forward and cheesing his army to get a cover save for practically everything for the entire time he advances over the first few turns, so bear in mind that if you get high enough up, you should be able to shoot over his ADL and hit units that are pretty far back from it without it blocking line of sight at all--in otherwards, without him getting a cover save from it. Bear in mind he will still be able to hide his units behind other units or in area terrain for an easy 3+ cover, and in ruin for another 2+ cover, if they're in range of the venomthropes. So yeah, underlining the importance of taking out those venomthropes with cover-ignoring weapons ASAP.

Blast templates are fun for clearing light infantry and being high enough strength to ID T4 enemy models, but they aren't the end-all be-all of the situation. They can't hit flying monstrous creatures until they're grounded, and just plain aren't good at putting enough wounds on monstrous creatures in general: carnifexes, hive tyrants, tervigons, tyrannofex, what have you. Autocannons are excellent at putting wounds on high toughness models with 4+ armor saves (Hydras excel at taking out the new tyranid Harpies and Crones, for instance), but tend to bounce off threats like Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants. For these, missile launchers, plasma, and lascannons are better bets. These are the tools you'll be using to crush your foes.

Commissars are a very bad idea. You want your squads to break and run as soon as the enemy charges them, so the enemy is caught flat-footed after their assault phase and you get to have your shooting phase with impunity (unless you're fighting gaunts, in which case your guardsmen are caught in a slapfight and, well, that can go either way). With this in mind, as long as you aren't fighting a kill points game, you should probably keep your infantry platoons all broken up: give the opponent more targets to assault, so he can't wipe out a buuunch of guardsmen with one squad of carnifexes in one phase, or something. Yes, this means your orders might not be so effective, but it is worth it--in fact, you can use those orders to try to ground flying hive tyrants through weight of fire before letting the other squads gang up on the grounded tyrant. (more squads do mean that the enemy's nova psychic power based on your leadership will hit more targets though, in the interest of fair warning). You can leave your squads in layers: when the first get charged and mulched into a pulp, the second layer gets to unload their guns... hopefully while falling back. Maybe in rapid fire range, but you better hope that they kill what they're shooting at, then...

Never underestimate the power of rapid fire and first rank fire, second rank fire to put wounds on, say, carnifexes... but have more arrows in your quiver in case you don't roll enough 6s to wound. Arrows like plasma and krak missiles.

Flamers are always your friend, but especially against gaunts. Unloading a special weapons squad with flamers from a vendetta and torching a squad of tightly packed gaunst is lovely. Overwatch wall of death killing the closest enemy models and making them fail their charge because of that is lovely. Ignoring cover is lovely. Torching fools with chimeras is lovely, though those are also a lot of highish strength shots you could be targetting a Carnifex or Tervigon with, if you go for the heavy bolter/multilaser route or something on the Chimera (and are firing, say, a missile launcher and two grenade launchers from the platoon command squad sitting inside the Chimera at the same time).

Just some thoughts, I suppose. Rather more than I intended at the start...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Good sir, it sounds like you need the Inquisition.

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls, Mastery Level 1 (Divination), Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, Liber Heresius - 109pts.

Take this mad utility machine alongside a 40-man Guard blob. Take a couple of Commissars to maximise the number of weapons you get, and equip every Sergeant and Commisar with a Power Axe.

This unit is brutal. It'll wipe the floor with any individual unit in his army. Never accept challenges, and keep Prescience kept up on yourself to maximise damage output. The exception to this is if you roll up Forewarning - a 4++ on that many models is too good to pass up. Scout forwards with the Liber Heresius, and use the other rules as and when you need them - if you fail a charge, you'll probably want Counter-Attack, and if you charge something important and haven't got Prescience up, go for Hatred. Alternatively, swap put the Liber Heresius for the Tome of Vethric - you lose Scout, which is annpying, but you get re-rolls to wound against Monstrous Creatures for the whole game rather than the more versatile but temporary bonuses from the Liber Heresius.

The Inquisitor's other gear will reduce the Toughness of any opponent you charge by 1 for the first round of combat, which is irrelevant in terms of the Guardsmen but means those 24 (assuming 2 Commissars) Power Axe attacks wound on 5s rather than 6s. Psychotrokes have a random effect, but all of them are relevant. Servo-Skulls mean that all your Blasts become more accurate - place each skull 6.1" away from the Aegis Line, and any Blasts you shoot at the poor sods behind it will scatter D6" rather than the full 2D6".


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

I am so excited I'm almost in tears...I LOVE you all! Drinks are on the house! And rep all around!


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

Here is my list, I know I might get some crap for now putting it in the list forum but ehh,

CCS, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Master of Ordinance, Chimera
Marbo
PCS
2 Infantry
HWT- 3 Lascannons
HWT- 3 Heavy Bolters
SWT- 3 Flamers (to ride in a Vendetta just in case)
VETS- 3 Plasma Guns
3 Vendettas
3 LRBT
2 Manitcore
Aegis Line, Quad Gun

1995/2000 points. 

Blast, Blast, Blast, Lascannons to the face, Heavy bolters for dakka, flamers for late objectives, Marbo to blow up venomthropes, astropath to bring all the flyers and Marbo on faster, MOO for another blast (possibly 10 large blasts a turn), OOF to keep his flyers off the table until I am ready....and away we go!


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Unloading a special weapons squad with flamers from a vendetta and torching a squad of tightly packed gaunst is lovely. Overwatch wall of death killing the closest enemy models and making them fail their charge because of that is lovely. Ignoring cover is lovely.


Really? In my experience they generally get slaughtered once unloaded and, if not done correctly, are a complete waste of time. Perhaps you know a trick I do not good sir.

Well glad to be of service, the new list is quite good actually. I might take Straken over Marbo, or deploy the Tanith First and Only. I do love how Midnight Sun wallced in here and shot a Inquisitorial Rap sheet. Good sir I smack you for that (SMACK!!!!). This is IG territory, take your over-dressed psykers to the next room pls.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Really? In my experience they generally get slaughtered once unloaded and, if not done correctly, are a complete waste of time. Perhaps you know a trick I do not good sir.


The trick is to use the mandatory Platoon Command Squad for that job. Yeah, they poof instantly, but they're 55pts, so who cares? This is the Imperial Guard, son, and we believe in acceptable losses.



emporershand89 said:


> Well glad to be of service, the new list is quite good actually. I might take Straken over Marbo, or deploy the Tanith First and Only. I do love how Midnight Sun wallced in here and shot a Inquisitorial Rap sheet. Good sir I smack you for that (SMACK!!!!). This is IG territory, take your over-dressed psykers to the next room pls.


Inquisitors make armies better. That is all.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> and most of his models do not require a high-point value unless he has invested points in upgrades.


Except for flying hive tyrants, carnifexes, tyrannofexes, and tervigons of course; you know all of the big things that Hokie said were in the other list.

All of those things run 150-250 points, with little or no upgrades. So looks like your wrong on that; you sure you know what your talking about?


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

Well thanks for all the advice but I guess I'm just an awful player...I got tabled again. I couldn't kill anything but a few Gaunts as he had a 3+ cover save on most of his models and rolled well enough for nothing to do. He also took a 5+ on ALL of his gaunts by spreading them 6 ft across his table. His flying hive tyrants landed in the middle of my blob squad and kept them occupied, killing the last one in turn 3 before going and killing 2 vendettas in the air as well. He could run and shoot in the same turn which was a blast as well.

The third vendetta, which crashed in turn 4 as well was destroyed in cc from the ground after I hovered like an idiot. Only one vendetta came on in turn 2, along with Marbo who was killed on a scattering blast. He also destroyed a Leman Russ by firing something that auto glances on 2-5 and pens on a 6, the other two were destroyed in cc by one guy. I couldn't get to his Venomthropes as he put them in a building, immune to my blasts. 

Overall I am frustrated and did not have fun...anyone want to buy 3000+ points of IG?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

How does your army fair against armies other than this guy's tyranids? 

It sounds like the guy has pulled all stops to be a waac player that most other players would have difficulty with. It also sounds like he's found an army unsuited to fighting back. Given that you rely heavily on long range firepower and he has written his list to exploit cover to the fullest. 

I play nids myself and using things like adl and venomthropes is the sort of thing I go out of my way to avoid UNLESS I know my opponent is playing the same level of uber competitiveness. 

Rather than give up on guard completely, I suggest you look into things like allies and terrain features you can buy in your list that would help you. 

Things like a squad of Grey Knights to teleport in and do away with a monstrous creature or two, or a vindicare assassin to sit in the top of a tall building and pick off annoying venomthropes and tervigons.


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm pretty sure I suck across the board to be honest. The thing about the list is it is nothing like the last time I played him and got tabled. Most of my games are somewhat competitive but I am just starting to play, only since December, the problem is playing this guys makes it no fun what so ever. I'm finishing my PhD and I play to relax, paint to relax and like to go to the store and chill but I'm almost over it already. I went gung ho, like I do with everything in life, and just feel like I'm out of my mind thinking I'll enjoy playing from here on out. I love the advice I get here and try to put it to use but them BAM I screw it up somehow.


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

In my opinion one of the best Leman Russ tanks to use against bugs is the punisher. 20 strength 5 shots into a unit of toughness 3 gaunts. Say goodbye to a lot of bugs!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Everybody's like that in the hobby to start with. It's important to pace yourself with this. 

Most of us have come across players like that as well. If there's no obligation to play against him once the campaign is over, don't. See if the other players are more easygoing with games. 

Frankly it sounds like whoever is running the campaign failed to think something through. Last time we had something going like this in my area, you couldn't challenge the same person twice until you had played at least three other people in between. 


Don't give up on it just yet. The hobby can be lots of fun and a very rewarding experience, but as with most social hobbies there are always those few cunts who set out to ensure that they're the only ones having what they think is fun.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

HokieHWT said:


> Overall I am frustrated and did not have fun...anyone want to buy 3000+ points of IG?


Well......I may if your serious. PM me  However I wouldn't give up quite yet my freind, after reading your post I concur with what Serpion5 stated. The Guard is suited to fight many other races, and you should not give up on them so easily. If he is investing with the Big Bad Boys them clearly he is going for q quick kill on you. Therefore you need to just adjust and retool.



darkreever said:


> So looks like your wrong on that; you sure you know what your talking about?


Seeing as I was refering to your main name-brand Nid units I really cannot concur. A basic Nid Army looks something like this.

Troops*
[140] x20 Hormagaunts - Scything talons
[140] x20 Hormagaunts - Scything talons
[100] x20 Termagants - Fleshborers
[100] x20 Termagants - Fleshborers
[145] x1 Tervigon - Cluster Spines
[145] x1 Tervigon - Cluster Spines

Again, short, but 20 models of Termies for 100.....that dirt cheap son. Idk what you run Darkreever but you must be an expensive player. Anyway yes, I'm sure I know enough. Besides TBh, like HokieHWT I too often fall prey to Nids. If it weren't for the ass of a Dark Eldar player who is my arch-nemisis right now the Nid players would be my next target as the Imperial forces at my Games Shop are.....non-existent. 




MidnightSun said:


> This is the Imperial Guard, son, and we believe in acceptable losses.


Yes.....sadly we do. I can see your point however if I'm loading up Valkeries or any transports I'd want something with a bit more punch. Flamers are something I'd deploy in the second line to toast the Nids attacking the first line before they Charge again. That or use them on the flanks to nick the flanks when they come in for the kill. 

I'd use Stormtroopers or Catachans with shotguns but hey.....to each his/her own.



MidnightSun said:


> Inquisitors make armies better. That is all.


Sheesh, there ios a reason we have Inquisitorial and Mechanicus forces.....go join them. I beleive in the "Guard for the Guardsmen," not the Inquisition. :laugh:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> Seeing as I was refering to your main name-brand Nid units I really cannot concur. A basic Nid Army looks something like this.
> 
> Troops*
> [140] x20 Hormagaunts - Scything talons
> ...


...

Reading comprehension, I think your missing it entirely here.

Hokie was rather clear in his second post that he saw a lot of big and tough 'nids in the first game and was likely to see the same in the next one. For you to give him general advice on dealing with the little creatures of the army misses the point completely.

And have you seen the 'nid list forum recently? What you have above hardly looks like the 'norm' for Tyranid troops sections in their entirety.


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

I with concur with Dark that his list only contained 40 gaunts the rest were MC with either 4 or 6 wounds.


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## Yvainwa (Oct 29, 2011)

Looking at your W/L score and the list you posted prior to this game, I am going to go ahead and point to you being a bad player. But please don't despair. You are new to the game and you are probably just playing with people that are much more experienced than you. Who in all seriousness, if they are power players should be going a little easier on you in that sense of not setting up mismatch lists. And helping you by giving good advice one what you did wrong and right. That is just good sportsmanship. 

There is nothing inherently wrong with the list you posted. There are several things that you should/could have been done differently (some examples: HWT are over expensive, regemental advisers are kind of a waste minus the astropath, a CCS with no special weapons is a waste, heavy bolters blow always take autocannons), but really you should have done fine with it. The truth is however, the internet will some time have you believe that list building is the key to victory, when in reality its only about 40%. The other 60% is target selection and unit tactics (subdivided into deployment, movements). 

It helps first and foremost to understand the game and your codex like the back of your hand. There are a lot of ways to win and ways to set yourself up for failure by not understanding how to use to rules. Because they are fragile yet cheap and powerful, Guard suffers and benefits from this in particular. If a Space Marine player misuses his key units there is a good chance they will still be useful, while a Guard player is more likely to simply waste them. The upside is that smart usage of the rules can turn Guardsmen into powerhouses. 

It also really helps to know your opponents army book (IE what the key units are and how they function) This is where target selection comes into play, which is another place where the Guard both suffers and benefits. Guard's main advantage is massive long range firepower, which is the best in the game. And as a long range army, Guard really should to do a lot of work turn one and two to damage their enemies effectiveness because by turn three this advantage is negated. By extension, a solid player can kind of put an enemy in the hole early on if he is smart with his first and second turn.

To give you some example of this (keeping in mind that I wasn't there  ), you mentioned that your blob got eaten by hive tyrants. Right off the bat I will tell you never blob against Nids or dedicated CC armies. If you have 2 separate squads is will take longer for him to chew through them because he will have to go from squad to squad. This only hurts you in a kill points game, which is 1 of 6 of the mission sets. 

Another that deals partly with lists, I know that verse the new Nids cover saves are going to be an issue. I also know that high strength ordnance weapons are not really necessary because I don't have to beat AV just 6 toughness. And their max armor save is +3 except for Tryannofex. In this respect, manticores are not really ideal. So taking a single manticore and two colossi is more beneficial because I can splat the venomthropes in one go with cover save ignoring colossi. And then my manticore can take out warriors who have T4 and guants. I also know since he will be relying on nature cover saves, LRBT are not the ideal choice, but artillery because my artillery takes cover saves from the center and out of line of sight, so I can use basilisks to get past that save. In addition, since I squadron-ed my LRBT, they can really only really shoot one target where a single basilisk as the potential to do much more damage because cover save bypass, same stat line, and not needing line of sight. I would also save a bunch of points. I can now invest in more squads and make him take longer to munch my guardsmen. 

I know that synapse is super important for nids. So prime long range targets are warriors and tervigons. Especially the tervigon, because his death means dead termagants. I know they have a lot of wounds so I will need to concentrate my fire to take one unit down at a time. Three vendettas shooting and killing one tervigon or hive tyrant then dying (shouldn't happen  ) is better than wounding both and dying. 

What I am trying to say is that none of us can play for you and you are going to have to learn these things to be a strong player. This means you are going to lose a bunch more games. (the truth is you would lose them as any army) But don't feel bad everyone has to go through this learning phase. You opponents knowing that you are new should be treating you better though. Not babying you, but being good friends and encouraging you. 

I know it sucks to lose and I like you want to enjoy a relaxing game for fun. Try not to take it to heart to much. The Guard is very rewarding and still one of the toughest armies out there. (Its fun when you supposedly weak troops survive and take out the super aliens and monsters.) Keep reading for advice and watching battle reports. Look up other armies. There used to be a player on this forum named HOBO, that pretty much is the go to for guard advice and builds. Using his tips has given me a pretty great record with my own Catachans. There is also the dedicated IG forum, which can be found by google searching commissar proboards. Keep at it and good luck dude.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Do not be demoralizad, hokie. Your opponent has clearly a taste for cheese.
You could, to vary your approach, be fielding 2 squadrons of 2 vendettas w/bolter sponsons, with 3 veteran squads w/3 plasmaguns, CCS w/4 meltaguns, alongside another vet squad w/ meltaguns & demolition doctrines in chimera. Then you could ally with some tau with the remaining 320 pts for some F..K YOU ignore covers shenaningans (i guess a cheap hq and a minimum troop with some big bad tau guy can stay in the 320 pts range)
Voilà 1500.
Otherwise as said above, colossus. it hurts.
Also, try to have some games with different people. If this tyrandid guy loves to play with netlists, screw him. There must be lots of more enjoyable people. Do not a single episode ruin your experience with the hobby.

Also this: "The truth is however, the internet will some time have you believe that list building is the key to victory when in reality its only about 40%. The other 60% is target selection and unit tactics (subdivided into deployment, movements)"
from the post above, is kinda true ( but a 10% is going with dices anyway!). you must learn how and when attack with what. That is practice.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> And have you seen the 'nid list forum recently? What you have above hardly looks like the 'norm' for Tyranid troops sections in their entirety.


I admit I have not, my Nid Knowledge(catchy) only comes from the 5th Edition Codex my freind owns; and the public one avalaible at the Game Shop I play at. Most Nid armies I have fought contain only a few larger creatures, and instead players tend to spend points on massive "hordes" of smaller creatures that overrun most basic army sets. 

I did note that Hokie had mentioned many of the larger monsters(such as Carnifex, and flying Tyrants) but I made the point, in all my strategies, to kill the little guys first and then focus on Toughness/AP for the bigger guys. From my point of view if it's just large creatures vs Guardsmen the amount of sheer firepower from your HW/Tanks/Aircraft/and Spec Weapons (and AP if you bring the right weapons) will easily slaughter them before they run amoke in your lines. Like Warmachine if you dog pile the bigger guys eventually they will fall. That beign said if you have to worry about the smaller creatures, that a massive swarm of multiple x20 Termies, Hormies, and Tervies groups becomes then your already as good as dead. Perhaps your SM can manage it but with crappy +5/+6 saves the Guardsmen are already toast so, IMHO, you need to eliminate the smaller forces quickly(within 2-3 turns if possible) and then move to the bigger guys. 

The one thing I will admit it SwarmLords....never faced one so I'm unsure which approach to take with them. 



Yvainwa said:


> I know that verse the new Nids cover saves are going to be an issue.


Indeed, how bad is it though? I have yet to look at the new 6th Edition Codex(if it's even out) but I hear that Nids are tough this time round.


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## HokieHWT (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the support everyone, I'm going to stick it out and not obsess over one asshole :grin:


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Also, i suggest you, for your own self esteem, not to count win-losses ratio before one year of gaming  and do much list building and tinkering, to understand your army and possibilities!


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I would also advise you start looking around online for _tactical_ advice. I do not mean list building, I mean how you set the table move the units (or don't). Place objectives and the rest. 

The initial learning curve is strong, but its not all about list building!


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## librisrouge (Mar 4, 2014)

Try and read some battle reports. In addition to being entertaining, they also give tactical insight. You should also consider playing a team game or two with a more experienced player who can coach you through. All of these helped me when I started.


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