# Rumor: Forgeworld models in regular 40k. Also forgeworld codices



## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/forgeworld-models-to-be-allowed-in.html

Still very rumor mill, but it may very well soon be possible to use of your forgeworld stuff in regular 40k and even in tournaments legally.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Using FW stuff in regular games seems reasonable but the rest just seems like wishful thinking to me.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Awesome! I already play dkok, so this just makes things easier.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Sweet!
As with most FW - related Topics some will love the idea of this, and some won't. I'm the former, and my gaming group already use our FW stuff regularly, so it's not a big deal to us anyway.

If/with GW actually putting this on paper then at least it gives more credence and authority to the issue, because FW declaring it in their newer IA books didn't stop the bitching so much...so if this actually comes to fruition then it should be the 'be all & end all' of the matter.

Well aside from people refusing to play with such a list of course.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Always wondered why GW never did this to begin with. Ramp up production, expand the market and make a fucking killing by getting us poor fools to hand over even more money willingly and happily. I would love to see FW make army specific codex books. They would actually be written correctly with decent rules for once...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Unforgiven302 said:


> Always wondered why GW never did this to begin with. Ramp up production, expand the market and make a fucking killing by getting us poor fools to hand over even more money willingly and happily. I would love to see FW make army specific codex books. They would actually be written correctly with decent rules for once...


Rather than doing obscure or often neglected armies wouldn't it make sense that GW let them do some standard dexes first? That way they may actually manage to get everything up to date before 7th ed.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

If the rumours are true, i wonder how many retards will still try and refuse to play you if you have LEGAL FW units in your army Like say, Ork Flak wagons, Once the FAQ's/Eratta's are out???


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

FW stuff has already always been allowed in regular 40k... With your opponants permission of course. All this means is that you no longer have to ask before you can feild your FW unit. Same with tournaments, you could use FW stuff in them if the organisers allowed it, so really, nothings changed at all.

As for the codex stuff etc... Yeah, gonna call bull on that. Most GW stores have barely enough room for products as it is, let alone having to make room for FW stuff too. Also, FW already give lists for alternate armies in the IA books (Red Scorpians and Minotaurs to name two), so I can't see them doing their own full codexs. That just isn't FW's department.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

My call would be models, yes; codices, no.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

FW is currently hiring more production staff so ths could be likely.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Here's hoping...


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## Pride365 (Apr 17, 2012)

This sounds great! I have a love of FW stuff so never having to worry about weather or not I can field something will be just awesome!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Awesome, I love forgeworld.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Using FW stuff in regular games seems reasonable but the rest just seems like wishful thinking to me.


They will be doing heresy era-"Codex" rules.......how they will tie in yet i don't know. :headbutt:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Azkaellon said:


> They will be doing heresy era-"Codex" rules.......how they will tie in yet i don't know. :headbutt:


I can't wait for that day, I've always loved the 30k era, even before the Horus Heresy novels started.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

God I hope this is true, tired of people whining about me wanting to bring Repressors for my SoB


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I can see there being some restrictions rather than all FW units becoming automatically permitted: some super heavies would be a little unbalancing if your opponent had no warning when preparing his army list.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I look forward to this possibility since it means more varied lists and thigs like FW flyers enterig the game for the armies that don't have them. Of course Orks and Guard would benefit the most from this.

I am hopig the US FW rumor is true. It'd mean less time o gettig products over here in the States. Which of course means the cost over here should't be early as high as it is now, at least in shipping. So yeah, they'd be getting a lot more of my money.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> I can see there being some restrictions rather than all FW units becoming automatically permitted: some super heavies would be a little unbalancing if your opponent had no warning when preparing his army list.


Apoc is still Apoc, it's not as if Super Heavies are allowed in normal games and someone is going to surprise you with a Baneblade in a 1800 pt list.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> I can see there being some restrictions rather than all FW units becoming automatically permitted: some super heavies would be a little unbalancing if your opponent had no warning when preparing his army list.


But that's why most FW books now have "40k Approved" or "Apocolypse Approved" stamps on the unit entries. So the balance of the game wouldn't be upset.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

TheReverend said:


> But that's why most FW books now have "40k Approved" or "Apocolypse Approved" stamps on the unit entries. So the balance of the game wouldn't be upset.


Exactly. The "40k approved" FW models are very well balanced, and anybody who refuses to allow them is a dick. There is no valid reason beyond being anally retentive to refuse to play some of the best looking models available to gamers.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Exactly. The "40k approved" FW models are very well balanced, and anybody who refuses to allow them is a dick. There is no valid reason beyond being anally retentive to refuse to play some of the best looking models available to gamers.


My friend uses the Tau Crisis suits often. As much as I hate facing them, they are balanced enough to be in the standard game.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Apoc is still Apoc, it's not as if Super Heavies are allowed in normal games and someone is going to surprise you with a Baneblade in a 1800 pt list.





TheReverend said:


> But that's why most FW books now have "40k Approved" or "Apocolypse Approved" stamps on the unit entries. So the balance of the game wouldn't be upset.


I am aware of the current system. I was disagreeing with the original post which said: 



Eleven said:


> ...it may very well soon be possible to use all  of your forgeworld stuff in regular 40k....


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i still find it amazing that some people will refuse to play against FW models, personally i think of it as a bit of an honour, getting to see and possibly touch some of the FW models is a massive buzz for me, most people i know would be offended if you didnt put a FW model on the table if you had one in your army case. 

Anyway it makes good business sense to do this as i know some people are still reluctant to buy FW stuff because they assume people will refuse to play against it,despite the fact most people when asked wouldnt care and likely have some FW units they would also like to put on the table but are too afraid to ask.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> I am aware of the current system. I was disagreeing with the original post which said:


Surely you realize that I wasn't trying to imply that you would be able to put your reaver titans in a game that is based on 2,000 point armies, heh.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> i still find it amazing that some people will refuse to play against FW models, personally i think of it as a bit of an honour, getting to see and possibly touch some of the FW models is a massive buzz for me, most people i know would be offended if you didnt put a FW model on the table if you had one in your army case.


I remember playing against one of the Eldar tanks, seemed to instant kill everything. Big and expensive and it did look impressive, but somehow just wasn't all that fun to play against. I mean that varies from model to model of course. I don't have a problem with them for the most part though.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Karyudo-DS said:


> I remember playing against one of the Eldar tanks, seemed to instant kill everything. Big and expensive and it did look impressive, but somehow just wasn't all that fun to play against. I mean that varies from model to model of course. I don't have a problem with them for the most part though.


well to be fair its an eldar tank and it should be able to instant kill everything, eldar are better than you 

But without knowing what the unit is its hard to say, but if it was big it was likely a super heavy and they should be restricted to games with other super heavies in, but even then you at least gave it a go and played against it and im sure you opponent was thankful for you doing so.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> well to be fair its an eldar tank and it should be able to instant kill everything, eldar are better than you
> 
> But without knowing what the unit is its hard to say, but if it was big it was likely a super heavy and they should be restricted to games with other super heavies in, but even then you at least gave it a go and played against it and im sure you opponent was thankful for you doing so.


watch a baneblade have 5 hull points......... :shok:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Azkaellon said:


> watch a baneblade have 5 hull points......... :shok:


According to FW 1SP = 3HP. So there you go.

I'll be honest, with this new edition I'm looking at those Forge World flyers to help my Sisters, this rumor be true or not. You can keep you allied Guard, I'll take a Vulture (or two) instead. :biggrin:


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

"I remember playing against one of the Eldar tanks, seemed to instant kill everything. Big and expensive and it did look impressive, but somehow just wasn't all that fun to play against. I mean that varies from model to model of course. I don't have a problem with them for the most part though."

Without you being more specific as to which model and system, it's difficult to understand your point.
Big, expensive and impressive would suggest a Super-Heavy though.
Was it Standard 40K or Apocalypse?

If Standard, it shouldn't be there.

If it was Apocalypse, you should expect to face Super-Heavies and plan accordingly.

After all, you wouldn't expect your opponent in a Standard 40K game to not field any Tanks in his force just because you were playing with an all Infantry Army.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Zion said:


> According to FW 1SP = 3HP. So there you go.
> 
> I'll be honest, with this new edition I'm looking at those Forge World flyers to help my Sisters, this rumor be true or not. You can keep you allied Guard, I'll take a Vulture (or two) instead. :biggrin:



I have a feeling this right here is why these rumors have popped up. The current GW models have a huge gap in flyers and what can combat them. A large chunk of the FW line is the answer to this gap both in more flyers and more anti air platforms.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

It's hardly coincidence that Forge World's latest newsletter reveals a new book up for pre-order called "Aeronautica". 
It is a collection of all their Flyers and Anti-Aircraft model's Datasheets.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

scscofield said:


> I have a feeling this right here is why these rumors have popped up. The current GW models have a huge gap in flyers and what can combat them. A large chunk of the FW line is the answer to this gap both in more flyers and more anti air platforms.


Completely possible. I know I'm looking at the FW line of flyers and things to see what's available.

Sadly my enthusiasm was misplaced though as Sister only get access to the two Landers unless someone knows where it might say different. 

Real shame too, seeing as the Sisters would actually need the Imperial Navy's help from time to time. Would have gotten me to buy a couple models at least.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Unforgiven302 said:


> Always wondered why GW never did this to begin with. Ramp up production, expand the market and make a fucking killing by getting us poor fools to hand over even more money willingly and happily. I would love to see FW make army specific codex books. They would actually be written correctly with decent rules for once...


To understand why this has never happened before, you need to understand the mentality of the Studio upper management, and the chap who runs quality control on the 40k universe. 

It's the same mentality that won't let 40k licencing go to film makers or anyone who isn't tightly maintained. You let control go from your chosen few writers and make outside work part of the allowed core, then your edges start to get blurry, things can start to slip. Allow one mistake to become legal Canon that you didn't intend, and everything cascades from there. 

FW writes stuff within 40k, but because you have to have permission to use it, it's ok. The stuff that has recieved an 'official' stamp will have gone through the above Studio management vetting system and been approved by them. The writing teams are very different though, and FWs somewhat unrestrained "hey this'll be a cool model, let's right some rules that'll sell it" mentality can make their stuff unbalanced. There's a reason some is referred to as 'tank porn'. Sometimes points values are gimmicky rather than appropriate (see greater daemons, etc). 

And yes, I know some people accuse Games Dev of the same things. Games Dev however, will write things knowing there's counters for them and write balance in in other ways. They know they have to make things work or they destroy the entire balance of the game. FW has no such restrictions. Yet. If the rumours are true, expect a massive reign-in on the "wow cool" factor of rules, and a slow down in releases as they get vetted before release...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I can use my fw stuff in regular 40k now...bit late for that, and tournament's don't count as organisers make the rules not gw and 40k isn't any good for tournaments anyway.


1. That's nice, but some of us live in areas where people are a lot stodgier about allowing FW into games due to it's "unoffical" nature this is good news.
2. Tournaments count for people who aren't you and who play them. So about 3/4 of the board on average falls into both those categories.
3. While it's still FAR too early to call it for 6th, I played tournaments in 5th and they were no less balanced/unbalanced as any other tournament I've been too. 

People assume because rules sucked a decade ago that they suck now, and that isn't the case anymore. They're better, tighter and more varied than ever before, so it's really foolish to say you can't play competetively with them when they haven't even been fully plumbed for all their secrets.

Not to mention without 6th Edition codecs we currently only have scraps from the rulebook how this edition will REALLY go.

So yeah, it's a bit early for absolutes.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Sakura do you actually play anymore?


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Eleven said:


> Surely you realize that I wasn't trying to imply that you would be able to put your reaver titans in a game that is based on 2,000 point armies, heh.


As the internet is used by many different people from many different backgrounds, I try to avoid assumptions.

Any insult you felt was not intended.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> As the internet is used by many different people from many different backgrounds, I try to avoid assumptions.
> 
> Any insult you felt was not intended.


None taken. I would presume tht there would be no super envies or titanic creatures since Rey are not supported by the Fitch rule book. They could try converting them to 6th Ed rules, but it would be tough and 6th Ed kept the maximum of 10 wounds rule right?


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I think your predictive text got the better of you there, Eleven.


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> well to be fair its an eldar tank and it should be able to instant kill everything, eldar are better than you
> 
> But without knowing what the unit is its hard to say, but if it was big it was likely a super heavy and they should be restricted to games with other super heavies in, but even then you at least gave it a go and played against it and im sure you opponent was thankful for you doing so.


I was actually running some Eldar too. It was definitely a super heavy with the big gun and all, seems FWs site won't come up for me or I would check the name. There was only a few of us and I sadly lacked FW models or super heavies. Not that I might not have been able to kill it anyway. Had just never played one before and it just seemed sort of stupid it could one-shot an AV14 vehicle without a care in the world that it had an armor value at all. Super heavy or not, a pen roll on a 1 at least have been nice  Not to say it was completely imbalanced though.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

I can't see the FW models being sold in a Games Workshop in the physical model, however, I can see them being available through the in store order point. As for releasing usable codices? Possible, I mean, they release all the rules anyway, then put them in Imperial Armour, I can't see why they don't release "Warhammer 40k: Forgeworld Space Marines" or something with a little less boring title. 

However, Forgeworld models have always been allowed in regular 40k provided you have it in your list, granted it's customary to get the all ok from your opponent.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I would want better availability (I know, U.S. distribution center blah blah) and better affordability before GW throws down the Forgeworld Allowed mandate. Personally I don't have many problems with people using the models as long as they have the rulebook they come from with them and I get to look through it whenever I want.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

I think this is down to either misinterpretation or wishful thinking


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## Karyudo-DS (Nov 7, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I want to be interested again, but I just can't do it anymore, the drive to care is gone..
> .


Why even bother to troll the forums then? Takes some drive to get that far.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I want to be interested again, but I just can't do it anymore, the drive to care is gone, the utter unflinching grip people have to only playing RAW just turns me off utterly, I don't want that, and I just can't discuss things like that.


Sounds like you need to make some new friends to play with. Idk where you are living but there's bound to be a different game center around to play at. Try to get on their online message boards if they have them and ask when people play then just head over and try to meet some people. 40k isn't fun if you don't have anyone to play with.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Pssyche said:


> I think your predictive text got the better of you there, Eleven.


Haha, damn phone. Basically every word that has to do with 40k is victimized by autocorrect. Since my work computer blocks every site ever I have to use my phone.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Sakura_ninja said:


> now I just plan to be a complete bitch,


Yeah, I'd say most of us have picked up on that by now.



> I want to be interested again, but I just can't do it anymore, the drive to care is gone,


Then why are you here, boring the shit out of us with your self indulgent, self pitying, woe-is-me bullshit? Seriously, if you have nothing constructive to add to the boards, then you're just a troll. This is one of the friendliest, most helpful forums out there, yet instead of trying to expoit that to your advantage all you're doing is trying to drag the mood down to your level.

We get it. You hate GW, everyone hates you. Change the record, this one is getting old.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Yeah, I'd say most of us have picked up on that by now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

No one likes a troll.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Are the IA books getting re-released at some point? I am a fan of rule books and often buy just to flick through and look at the artwork and rules... But the IA books on FW have some out of stock for months.... So, is this basically a way of saying "Yeah, we won't be restocking cause we'll be releasing a combined IA1-3 later on"?

:\ Ho hum!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Troublehalf said:


> Are the IA books getting re-released at some point? I am a fan of rule books and often buy just to flick through and look at the artwork and rules... But the IA books on FW have some out of stock for months.... So, is this basically a way of saying "Yeah, we won't be restocking cause we'll be releasing a combined IA1-3 later on"?
> 
> : Ho hum!


I know IA: Apoc 1 got a second Edition, my guess is the main studio asked them to hold off on the other updates until after the new edition dropped.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

The release of IMPERIAL ARMOUR AERONAUTICA might answer alot of our questions. If this is going to happen, then GWS will probably promote this book and write an FAQ regarding it.

Also, to sakura, I kinda felt the same about 40k some time last year. I quit for awhile now i'm back with a vengence (and a much higher disposable income!)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well forgeworld is in included in the rulebook so that suggests a step towards fundamentally integrating it into 40k


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Eleven said:


> The release of IMPERIAL ARMOUR AERONAUTICA might answer alot of our questions. If this is going to happen, then GWS will probably promote this book and write an FAQ regarding it.
> 
> Also, to sakura, I kinda felt the same about 40k some time last year. I quit for awhile now i'm back with a vengence (and a much higher disposable income!)


You mean promote it like they did in today's blog?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3000058


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Zion said:


> You mean promote it like they did in today's blog?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3000058


I like what I'm seeing.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Eleven said:


> I like what I'm seeing.


Me too. :biggrin:

There are very few horribly broken things available, and most of those cost upwards to a thousand plus points, and are only available in Apocalypse games. Anything that is still broken and allowed into regular games will likely be handled by FAQ, updating the rules, or by the person who is being a cheese monger being shunned by their peers until they knock it off.

So all-in-all I've actually got my fingers crossed on this one panning out.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

I am %100 in favor of expanding the game as much as possible, especially with the potential of 6th ed. expanded slots and allies.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Games workshop - quick review of Imperial Armour Aeronautica 



Eleven said:


> I like what I'm seeing.





Zion said:


> Me too. :biggrin:



Me three!!!!


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Hmm I like what I'm seeing but it doesn't actively say that fw stuff is usable in regular games. Not that I'd stop somone using them against me as long as they had rules with them. Heck I would rather play apocalypse to regular 40 k anyway. It would just be nice to know one way or he other wether it is legal in actual gw stores.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> Hmm I like what I'm seeing but it doesn't actively say that fw stuff is usable in regular games. Not that I'd stop somone using them against me as long as they had rules with them. Heck I would rather play apocalypse to regular 40 k anyway. It would just be nice to know one way or he other wether it is legal in actual gw stores.


You'd have to look at the Imperial Armour books specifically. Many of which say things in the entries like "Available as a Heavy Support choice for the Imperial Guard" in their entries, or give alternate army rules for some armies (like the Big Mek Ork army, Krieg or the varient Marine armies).

And seeing as Forge World is a subsidiary of GW, it makes those things pretty darn legal in my book. The only thing stopping you from using the rules or models is your opponent, but if you have the actual rules in hand (be sure to point out the points cost too!) they shouldn't have any issues as long as you don't bring an Super Heavy to a regular game.

Well if they're a decent person who wants to see an army of really cool models at least.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> It would just be nice to know one way or he other wether it is legal in actual gw stores.


Ask the guy running the gw store. I know our store fully supports FW and the guy their considers them to be one and the same with GW games. First thing he said when I asked "If GW is charging money for the model and rules, you can play with the model and rules." Very straightforward about it. There is no line that people are afraid to cross with Forge-world now so I see a lot of nice and diverse armies there. It really changed the store and made it much funner to play there. This one decision to allow Forge world, no exceptions or permission needed, really helped the gaming community. No one stopped going because "FW is broken and unbalance". Infact, the community has grown at least %25 because Forgeworld is openly accepted.

Once again, all for it!


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

desolatemm: where abouts is that? 

when you say the community has benefited and grown etc... why do you feel that its grown/benefited?

so for myself ive always disliked the "i'll pop down to gw and beat someone with my broken rules cos i like to be different and pay to win my games" attitude that ive seen with forgeworld. For me they are campaign books, that should be played against consenting[and by that i mean others that have stuff from the same campaign setting] rather than vs "random" opponents.

Also whenever i look at their rules, and points values i think its a joke. Personally i feel there is very little balance with the forgeworld rules, but people seem to think thats ok "cos my models cost more than yours".

Now im quite open minded and willing to be proved wrong, and fully understand that not everyone play forgeworld for the above reasons. However every gw that ive been in that allows forgeworld to be used with no special conditions i feel has a very poor community feel, with a arms race culture, that just cant help but make forgeworld the answer to every question. I cant stand it when im talking about say my marines and someone says " you should get a contemptor", or "my decimator would destroy that" etc etc. 

so the challenge, enlighten me. Why would i want to play in a store that let forgeworld be used openly.

For the record there are 4/5 gw's within driving distance to me. the one i go to has 2 hour table slots you can book in advance with an opponent, if you want to use forgeworld rules, apocalypse, whatever you want basically with your 2 hour slot. Then all the others have anything goes and i prefer the store i play at's community because i dont have forgeworld shoved down my throat every other sentence, it dont have to watch someone trying to use their "scrath built" counts as forgeworld bullshit, and there are significantly more people on a weekly basis for gaming then any of the other local stores [and its the smallest in terms of gaming space] which tells me there doing something right?

As i say im genuinely willing to change my mind on this, and would actually happy travel up to a 2 hour drive to play some games and see what its like at other stores, games clubs etc


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think everyone who uses forgeworld models thinks "I want to use this because it's broken and I want to own everyone". 

Some, like myself, have Forgeworld stuff because I like the look of it or it adds more to the background, fluffyness of an army.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think everyone who uses forgeworld models thinks "I want to use this because it's broken and I want to own everyone".
> 
> Some, like myself, have Forgeworld stuff because I like the look of it or it adds more to the background, fluffyness of an army.


Agreed. At worst the common thought is "my codex is old and out of date, what can Forgeworld do to make it not suck?"


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

jigplums said:


> desolatemm: where abouts is that?
> 
> when you say the community has benefited and grown etc... why do you feel that its grown/benefited?
> 
> so for myself ive always disliked the "i'll pop down to gw and beat someone with my broken rules cos i like to be different and pay to win my games" attitude that ive seen with forgeworld. For me they are campaign books, that should be played against consenting[and by that i mean others that have stuff from the same campaign setting] rather than vs "random" opponents.


I've been playing my Elysians since 3rd Edition, when I took Guard with Drop Infantry Doctrine. I then took Guard into 4th Edition, and 5th Edition, using the same, and thanks to modifications to the rules, meant that I could no longer deploy 120 Guardsmen by Deep Strike, in case they were destroyed on landing, shot up, or offered Kill Points out the wazoo (12 from 2 platoons). I see Imperial Armour 3 and 4, and begin to utilise the rules listed there to represent my Elysians. I begin to get a few more victories, but the general fragility of the vehicles put paid to their use, although come 5th, they became more useful, depsite their expense.

Then comes 5th Edition Guard Codex - I lose Deep Striking Infantry, but in return gain Valks and Vendettas in the core game, but lose Vultures. At the start, we know how "powerful" Air Cav was, until people adapted the game to counter them.

Then comes IA8. I can use Vultures, new LRDG style vehicles, and Deep Striking infantry again, Drop Sentinels. Because it was different, it was strong, until people learned to counter them.

Now, on rolls 6th Edition - suddenly, my army which is effectively countered and neutralised, including several "sub-par" choices according to 5th edition, like Punisher Cannons and massed Valkyries with easy access to Night Fighting, I am now a "cheesy" bastard, who "pays to win", and is broken beyond belief and should be neutered and banned from Games Workshop stores.



> Also whenever i look at their rules, and points values i think its a joke. Personally i feel there is very little balance with the forgeworld rules, but people seem to think thats ok "cos my models cost more than yours".


Name them.



> Now im quite open minded and willing to be proved wrong, and fully understand that not everyone play forgeworld for the above reasons. However every gw that ive been in that allows forgeworld to be used with no special conditions i feel has a very poor community feel, with a arms race culture, that just cant help but make forgeworld the answer to every question. I cant stand it when im talking about say my marines and someone says " you should get a contemptor", or "my decimator would destroy that" etc etc.


Contemptors and Decimators got raped by the new edition. Talking of which, not exactly sure how you're comparing the difference between Forge World and GW to be any different. Someone, 16 years old, say plays Dark Eldar, strengths of the list now is its flyers, which in the past were never taken. In return, they earn £5 an hour, working 20 hours at a weekend, to get £400 a month, assuming bills etc, this leaves them £50 a month to spend on themselves. Assuming 2 Cinema trips, that's £30, a couple of take aways, £20. So £5 a week to spend on the hobby, lets say - so they can afford a single unit of Dark Eldar Warriors each month to play with. Whereas an 8 year old who is new to the hobby and spends too much time reading up on line than is healthy discovers his Fighters are much more useful. Because Milfington couldn't give a shit about it, as long as he doesn't get into trouble on the street and knowing he's safe for the low-low price of £30 a month for access to a creche in the GW Store, simply buys him it, or several, as he didn't get more than four black marks that week on his report card.

How is that any different, between someone who can afford the difference in buying GW Plastic Products, compared to someone who can afford to purchase Forge World. Or, on the other hand, all these people who build warhound titans, baneblades, or fighter jets for ~£3 out of plasticard?



> so the challenge, enlighten me. Why would i want to play in a store that let forgeworld be used openly.


Would you rather play against Marine Variant #24321 that uses Codex BA/SW/GK as the core of their list for some half hearted bullshit fluff "oh, they get angry so rage/they ride big lizards/they are tainted by chaos", when in reality they simply want to use the most powerful rules and is a copy paste netlist.



> For the record there are 4/5 gw's within driving distance to me. the one i go to has 2 hour table slots you can book in advance with an opponent, if you want to use forgeworld rules, apocalypse, whatever you want basically with your 2 hour slot. Then all the others have anything goes and i prefer the store i play at's community because i dont have forgeworld shoved down my throat every other sentence, it dont have to watch someone trying to use their "scrath built" counts as forgeworld bullshit, and there are significantly more people on a weekly basis for gaming then any of the other local stores [and its the smallest in terms of gaming space] which tells me there doing something right?


People like to be seen as elitist. Ignore them. If you can't, well, that shows a lot about your character.



> As i say im genuinely willing to change my mind on this, and would actually happy travel up to a 2 hour drive to play some games and see what its like at other stores, games clubs etc


Play with friends, rather than twats at an GWStore.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Hmm... I wonder if this means that LGS & GW locations will carry FW products in the future? I seem to recall a thread somewhere that showed a FW clamshell that looked like it could easily fit in on a retail shelf.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

jigplums said:


> desolatemm: where abouts is that?
> 
> when you say the community has benefited and grown etc... why do you feel that its grown/benefited?
> 
> ...


I kind of laughed after reading this post. You seem to have had some very bad experiences. While some models have rules that are broken, there are many more that are not. I find the army lists that they put out to be usually under powered in many cases. Take the DKOK army list, which when compared to the main IG codex is sub-par, but I could care less but it's fluffy, has lots of character and is super fun to play. It oddly enough wasn't until 6th came out I even won a game with them (1-5 record lol), and the guy was trying to be a cheeseball (went to gw on a whim when 6th dropped) using Eldrad, with Dark Eldar allies, who used a base in place of a model (The DE flier no less). Everyone I have played/seen using FW rules or models tend to actually be better people as they have the funds to do this hobby with expensive models (Usually means they are older, more mature), and respect the game. 

I do also completely avoid 2 types of gamers, power gamers/rules lawyers, and I do not play against kids, or anyone that looks younger than 20. Both types tend to have no respect for the game, and are just no fun to play against.


TLR? ; Don't let a few assholes get to you, find some decent people to play against. Also, 2 hour table limits are stupid. Half the fun of the game is BSing with people.


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

I have no problem with this at all. Remember, a Baneblade or a Warhound Titan are still only allowed in Apoc games. FW armies are basically clones of existing ones with a few new units and characters. Nothing insane. I think it adds to the games diversity. If they are using a FW codex that means they are bringing something a bit different to the game. And I applaud that. Besides, unless your in a tournament you don't have to play against anyone you don't want. And I excercise that right all the time.

As far as two hour limits, that sucks. I don't usually BS with 40k players cause they aren't my type of people but I don't want to feel rushed. I also like the option of playing 2000-2500 games.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

jigplums,
The store I am refering too is located in Washington State, Puyallup. Another store (non-GW) that openly allows ForgeWorld is the Games Matrix in Lakewood.

The community has grown because most people like to play Forge World for their unique rules and beautiful models. Not because they are unbalanced or cheesy. Even when playing against power-list FW units and amies in 5th ed. I was never too impressed with an unbalanced list. At least in 5th ed, good generalship allowed you to deal with specific units and take into account all of their advantages and disadvantages. I believe a lot of people who deem FW as "Over powered" or "Unbalance" simply have not played against them or, at least, have not played against them enough. It take people a bit of time to get used to my Corsair Eldar because the play style is so much different than my Codex:Eldar armies. What I just stated is another reason why FW is accepted openly. Because it changes up the game. It get boring really fast playing and playing against the same cookie-cutter lists and units. With the addition of Forge World, I can play the same army, Eldar, and have several lists that play completely different from each other. Lastly, it is much easier to build themed armies with Forge World. Once everyone lets go of the "I need to smash my opponent into dust" approach to the game, it becomes viable to use Forge World for FUN. I'm not saying competition is bad, infact competition is the fun of the game to most people. But no one has fun destroying their opponent without a challenge. Most everyone in my community understands this. With that said, most people have their nasty power-lists hidden somewhere, ready to be taken out at the first sign of a best vs. best game.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Desolatemm said:


> jigplums,
> The store I am refering too is located in Washington State, Puyallup. Another store (non-GW) that openly allows ForgeWorld is the Games Matrix in Lakewood.
> 
> The community has grown because most people like to play Forge World for their unique rules and beautiful models. Not because they are unbalanced or cheesy. Even when playing against power-list FW units and amies in 5th ed. I was never too impressed with an unbalanced list. At least in 5th ed, good generalship allowed you to deal with specific units and take into account all of their advantages and disadvantages. I believe a lot of people who deem FW as "Over powered" or "Unbalance" simply have not played against them or, at least, have not played against them enough. It take people a bit of time to get used to my Corsair Eldar because the play style is so much different than my Codex:Eldar armies. What I just stated is another reason why FW is accepted openly. Because it changes up the game. It get boring really fast playing and playing against the same cookie-cutter lists and units. With the addition of Forge World, I can play the same army, Eldar, and have several lists that play completely different from each other. Lastly, it is much easier to build themed armies with Forge World. Once everyone lets go of the "I need to smash my opponent into dust" approach to the game, it becomes viable to use Forge World for FUN. I'm not saying competition is bad, infact competition is the fun of the game to most people. But no one has fun destroying their opponent without a challenge. Most everyone in my community understands this. With that said, most people have their nasty power-lists hidden somewhere, ready to be taken out at the first sign of a best vs. best game.


Ever come up North? The Factoria Battle Bunker allows FW rules as well. When I am not at a friends house that's where I play. Games Matrix is a pretty cool store, never gamed there though.


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## vulcan666 (Jun 19, 2010)

I can see both sides of the argument, there are those that feel forgeworld are more about really cool models than how they work with other elements of a given codex, the space marines contemptor mortis dreadnought being given skyfire if it doesnt move is cool but wow talk about powerful.
On the other hand you have people who either baught forgeworld stuff because they love the models and care more about the fun of the game or you have those who buy the stuff in the hope that they can smash all who oppose them.
I like forge world models, i buy them because they are cool, sure i would love it if I could use all the forgeworld stuff i have got in normal games without worrying if my opponent said no or not however i feel that it would lessen the fun for others so I have to go agaisnt it and hope they stay to spelcial events only if however this was to apply only to the flyers and that then maybe i might recondiser this decision.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Ya the contemp dread having skyfire does make it powerful, but how many points is it? It's not like there arent units in regular games that are super powerful made that way just sell models (looking at you valkyrie/vendetta), that you have no say if they can use (other than just walking away from the game). Also, I am sure it will bet toned down in the future, thinking of the chaplain dread, went from super awesome, to merely a good unit. Thats the other nice thing about fw...they actually balance their rules over time and do timely updates.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

On Mortis Contemptors...the two I have built are 200 & 210 pts each. One is dual AssCans, the other dual AC's. Both have a CML also.

Not cheap, but sweet looking and effective.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

For 200+ points I am not worried about them. That's a huge point investment and fills the role of AA for the Space Marines.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

From Faeit212:



> * Forgeworld Statement Denying 6th Edition Codices *
> 
> 
> Forgeworld has said they will not be doing codices for 40k armies. While this statement makes sense in more than a couple ways, I really wish they would do them. This would be a good way to get some non-standard armies into the game, and give us a chance to get Ad-Mech and more.
> ...


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## Shady ed (Sep 9, 2010)

I've always thought that they should sell the most popular/ newest FW models in GW shops.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

The thing for me is that I don't particularly want Forge World to provide Codices.
Whether we like it or not, that's Games Workshop's area of expertise.

I want them to carry on as they have been doing. 
Yes, it would be better if things were available in shop. 
But they are only the click of a mouse away.

It would be great if they got an Official Sanction from Games Workshop, but here in Manchester that isn't a problem. 
The Manager of Games Workshop Manchester (Central) has a rule that if they sell the model or book, even if it's through their online sales point, then you can use it in store.

I would however, like them to offer free. or nominal delivery to their stores. That percentage p&p is a killer and has been the difference between me placing or not placing an order on more than one occasion.


I think the worst thing about Forge World is members of our community. 
They refuse to play against their models because they don't know the rules, which in many instances have been out years.
Yet they're perfectly happy to play against Grey Knights, Necrons or whatever on the day that Codex comes out.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, I hope they are still doing Horus Heresy books though.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Exactly, Words of Truth.
Just keep doing what they do, because they do it very well.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

yeah i was worried when i heard they were starting to do stuff for fantasy in a serious way that they might be spread a bit thin, came as a quite a shock when they announced a completely new team of sculptors and now they have three full time writers.
the number of releases has really ramped up lately. 

I have to agree on the postage thing, a flat rate would be better that way at least people know where they stand.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> yeah i was worried when i heard they were starting to do stuff for fantasy in a serious way that they might be spread a bit thin, came as a quite a shock when they announced a completely new team of sculptors and now they have three full time writers.
> the number of releases has really ramped up lately.
> 
> I have to agree on the postage thing, a flat rate would be better that way at least people know where they stand.


I'd like to see the North American FW production site pan out so those of us over here in North America can get lower shipping rates and better shipping times. I know the FW team works very hard but it's hard to patiently wait for something that has to ship from the UK and can't even be tracked.

Personally I can go either way on FW doing codexes. As long as GW eventually says "All this stuff is legal and balanced for 40K and/or Apoc" I'll be happy.


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## Legiomortis (Jun 11, 2011)

Pssyche said:


> The thing for me is that I don't particularly want Forge World to provide Codices.
> Whether we like it or not, that's Games Workshop's area of expertise.
> 
> I want them to carry on as they have been doing.
> ...


Thats true about the community - although thankfully it -is- a small minority and the rest of Manchester's community are excellent. I believe if youre open and have the rules to hand it shouldnt be an issue.

As for the p&p issue you can bypass that by ordering FW models from warhammer world - you can then get them delivered for free to your local store. 

(dont forget we still need a 6th ed game mate )


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I would like to get FW stuff as most of it looks amazing as far as the models go. The problem is that most of it is prohibitively expensive for anybody in NA unless you're ready to dump a few hundred dollars at once (which given conversion rates, means dropping about $400 to even qualify for the free shipping). Incorporating their stuff into normal 40k only makes sense, but as others have mention they really need something here in NA.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I would like to get FW stuff as most of it looks amazing as far as the models go. The problem is that most of it is prohibitively expensive for anybody in NA unless you're ready to dump a few hundred dollars at once (which given conversion rates, means dropping about $400 to even qualify for the free shipping). Incorporating their stuff into normal 40k only makes sense, but as others have mention they really need something here in NA.


mmm, I didn't even realize that there was a level that earned free shipping. This is good news...But I will have to order:

Great unclean one
x2 Deathguard rhino Doors
Deathguard land raider doors
Deathguard Dread with lascannon and ML 
Deathguard terminators conversion kit 
x2 nurgle plague drones so as not to waste my fast attack slots.


This combined with the legendary gluttony from raging heros will make me an epic deathguard army combined with the nurgle stuff I already have.

Now I just have to hope for plastic plague bearers.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

_Y'know guys..... GW got pally with Citadel just before they bought them up....._



_just putting that out there...._


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Zetronus said:


> _Y'know guys..... GW got pally with Citadel just before they bought them up....._
> 
> 
> 
> _just putting that out there...._


GW already owns Forge World. The Forge World team is a smaller branch of GW and has been for YEARS so I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Zion said:


> GW already owns Forge World. The Forge World team is a smaller branch of GW and has been for YEARS so I have no idea what you're talking about.


And didn't GW *always* own citadel too? I only got into this around '92-93 but I'm pretty sure everything I've ever seen has them as brands of the same company....


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

@Zion

I never knew that GW already owns Forgeworld.


@nevynxxx

Indeed, as early as 1979!! 

I thought GW aquired it in mid 80's...



citadel_wiki said:


> Citadel Miniatures was formed as part of the British game company Games Workshop in early 1979, as announced in White Dwarf issue #11:
> 
> "Games Workshop and Bryan Ansell have got together to keep-alive Citadel Miniatures, a new miniatures company that will be manufacturing several ranges of figures. Ral Partha are already in production, but Citadel will also be producing own ranges, including the Fiend Factory figures, Fantasy Adventurers and Fantasy Specials. Citadel will not be limiting production to SF/F figures, but also new ranges of historical wargaming figures".[2]
> 
> ...


So news for me all round!

see guys... thats what happens when you go away for 20 years!


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Eleven said:


> Now I just have to hope for plastic plague bearers.


Not long to go at least


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Legiomortis "(dont forget we still need a 6th ed game mate )"

Going to try to get some games in this week from Tuesday to Thursday.


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## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Out of curiosity, is there any news to bring credence to this? If so, it'd make my Raven Guard list just so much better 

Korvy away!!!


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Arlex said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any news to bring credence to this? If so, it'd make my Raven Guard list just so much better
> 
> Korvy away!!!


If its gonna happen its gonna happen with the FAQ to the rule book I would guess.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If it was going to happen surely it would have happened in the Rulebook.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> If it was going to happen surely it would have happened in the Rulebook.


Naw, that would have put so much anti air in the game right from the get go that they wouldn't be able to sell fliers.

Plus it would create a huge sales spike for forgeworld at that very moment and they probably want to place it strategically.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

How much Anti Air exactly?










Take away fliers, codex options/upgrades, and super heavies, you have;

Imperial Support Weapons Platform
Sabre Weapons Battery
Land Raider Helios
Whirlwind Hyperios
Contemptor Mortis
Hyperios Battery
Flakk Trukk
Flakk Battle Fortress
Flakk Trukk?
Firestorm

That's not a whole lot. Ork Flakk is hardly much more effective unless it's crewed by Grots, they already have Fliers, Space Marines already have Fliers, and the Land Raider is the only point effective option available, as opposed to a Defence Line/Bastion with Autocannon, a Firestorm is only slightly effective - S6 means it's having to be quite lucky to get more than 1 glance/penetrating hit...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

See I would have thought if they were going to do it they would have done it in the Rulebook, as it gives so much stuff. Eldar have no flyers for example so they could have got Nightwings and Vampires for free essentially. Putting it n the FAQ would be a really weird way to do it.


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## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

I'd, persdonally, release a new Imperial Armour book. SOmething like Imperial Armour: Standard Approved or issue or something fluffy sounding, which updates and brings together everything from the Forgeworld books that is usable in standard WH40k, and then another book(or maybe not another book. WHat do I know?) for Apoc. 

Definetly not in the rulebook. It's already so big and expensive. If they add more pages, the cost goes up and it's already stupid expensive.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you can come up with an example that doesn't have some sort of 40k approved or Apoc approved rulestamp in a the most recent official books I will be very surprised.


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## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Valid. I'm just grasping for it. XD


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> See I would have thought if they were going to do it they would have done it in the Rulebook, as it gives so much stuff. Eldar have no flyers for example so they could have got Nightwings and Vampires for free essentially. Putting it n the FAQ would be a really weird way to do it.


You forget, you are thinking like a logical person. This is GW we are talking about. A logical person would just say Flak missiles are an option for existing armies with X missile launcher, and keep the game balanced for all armies through the launch of 6th edition.

Most likely GW's strategy is to sell more flyers until new codex slowly creep in that actually have Flak and similar anti air, but then you just have to buy those... so you're still stuck with buying new, expensive models.


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## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Arcane said:


> You forget, you are thinking like a logical person. This is GW we are talking about. A logical person would just say Flak missiles are an option for existing armies with X missile launcher, and keep the game balanced for all armies through the launch of 6th edition.
> 
> Most likely GW's strategy is to sell more flyers until new codex slowly creep in that actually have Flak and similar anti air, but then you just have to buy those... so you're still stuck with buying new, expensive models.


This seems very logical. GW is a company, and they have to make money or they couldn't continue to make their product. Now, with a dedicated fan base like GW has, are they really making more money this way? One would think that if all the armies were balanced(or equally balanced) both game wise and cost wise then they'd make plenty of money on sales. But I'm not plugged into GW's marketting and sales plan so...


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

I have yet to see a ton of flyers in local games anyway. I've only really seen quite a few when it was an old IG leaf blower list. Aegis seems to keep it fairly balanced at the moment, although flyers on turn two allows for some long range (snipers anyone?) hate to remove that pesky quad gun first turn anyway.


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