# If two primarchs had to come back



## A_fool_of_a_Took (Oct 28, 2012)

Alright guys this is my first serious thread and as far as I'm aware it has not been done before. So let's say that in a hypothetical near future Games-Workshop decides to do another global campaign. This campaign has one major difference to the others, it will impact the entire current lore by bringing back into the continuity two ,and only two, primarchs. One loyalist primarch and one traitor primarch. Now forget for a second any implications regarding balance, rules or complaints from people who play other armies, Have you done that? Good; now the question is which two primarchs would you like to see returned? There are a few guidelines I ask you follow though, they are.


[*]The two primarchs you choose must be the ones who you feel would create the most compelling story for the campaign.

[*]All primarchs are fair game regardless of what they are doing or their current states (dead, in stasis or missing)
Other then that just provide reasons for your choice and keep it civilk:.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The loyalist Primarch would probably be Vulkan. He had a more human side to him than any of the others, so when he sees what the Imperium has become he's probably flip out on the High Lords. As to Chaos, well apart from Curze and Horus, the rest haven't gone away as such. Angron seems to make regular jaunts into the Imperium, and we've seen Magnus crop up in a few of the SW novels as well.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Spoilers in this post.

Well if I was going to pick I would say Horus and Russ.

The reason for those picks is that some primarches simply cannot come back because they were definitively killed (eg ferris manus) and some are still very much around (Magnus, angron, fulgrim).

Why and how Horus. Why, because he is THE definitive bad guy in the Horus Hersey, the clues in the name. How? Cloning, abbadon thought he had stopped the process, but he hasn't quite, or rogue tech priests on mars smuggled out samples of his genetic material. It would lead to a fantastic build up as Horus ripped abbadon a new one, both for stopping his resurrection and also for utterly failing in all those crusades.

Why Russ? Well he's one of those primarches who isn't definitively dead, he's just gone off into the eot, and as has been shown ,the 13th company has survived, so why not him? It also leads to a brilliant 'wolves vs wolves' campaign which I'm sure someone could think of a really good name for. Russ also wouldn't be the 'imperiums' man. If you brought back gulliman or dorn, it would very much be a 'second emperor' situation, whereas Russ want to win, not rule. It could also lead to a split imperium (excuses for marines to fight marines during the campaign, dark angels changing sides like the traitors they really are... Ahem).

I'm sure other people could come up with other better suggestions, but tht would be mine. I'd also like the situation where they ALL come back (well except omegron and ferrus perhaps).


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Either that or the Lion - it's actually known that he exists, plus GWS have a boner for the First Legion atm. Corax is a possibility, but like the Khan I think he's too far out of the loop to make a return. And to bring Russ back would be hard without referencing the 'wolftime' thingy. Manus, Sanguinius and Dorn are dead, as is pretty much Guilliman so not them.

Chaos is a little more complex. Angron, Fulgrim and Magnus have all been seen since the Heresy IIRC, and Perturabo, Lorgar and Mortarion are still hanging around somewhere. Chances are Angron or Lorgar would be most likely, but I wouldn't see one monotheistic primarch returning due to the imbalance of attention focussed on that pantheon of Chaos. So I reckon Lorgar/Perturabo, though the other 4 are equally likely.

Oh yeh - Alpharius/Omegon. One of the was 'killed', but is probably masterminding the High Council of Terra already.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Well if I was going to pick I would say Horus and Russ.
> 
> The reason for those picks is that some primarches simply cannot come back because they were definitively killed (eg ferris manus) and some are still very much around (Magnus, angron, fulgrim)


I'm somewhat confused by your logic and reasoning here. You say you've made these picks because some simply can't come back. Yet you choose Horus? He is literally the most impossible of all the Primarchs to come back. His very soul and essence was obliterated by the Emperor and his body destroyed by Abaddon. There isn't a single way anyone could possibly explain for Horus coming back. Even if he was somehow cloned(I'll humour people that some part of his body survived) it wouldn't be Horus or have any of his presence, personality or self as that Horus was quite sufficiently snuffed out by the big E.


As for who I would pick. 'Traitor' would be Alpharius/Omegon. Explore where their true loyalties have led for the past 10,000 years, the whole campaign could be based around the reveal that they have infiltrated the Imperium on a colossal level and have manipulated events for millennia. As for the loyalist, I think Russ or the Lion would be the most interesting. Both are fully capable of returning feasibly and in my mind would be the most interesting to see reacting to the current Imperium and dealing with Alpharius and Omegon.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Horus could not be the one to come back. If he did the lore wouldn't be interesting at all. It would simply be that he dominated everything and took over Terra. Without the Emperor there to stop him humanity would be screwed. 

I would bring back Guilliman. His revival would be the only one that didn't mark the start of the apocalypse. Russ and Vulkan both said they would come back before the final battle. 

Guilliman would also make for a fine leader to get a war strategy going against the Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos. All three of which are showing signs of serious threats to Terra itself. 

As far as traitor primarchs go, I'm not all to familiar with them.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

'Cept he's dead. 

But I agree on the principle that Vulkan and Russ wouldn't return unless it was to be the end of humanity - but then that still leaves Khan (lost in the webway), Corax (no clue) and the Lion (comatose on the Rock) available.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Story-wise I can think of two pretty good scenarios. 

The first is to have Alpharius and Omegon come back, as both the loyalist and traitor Primarchs. But which is which and why? Revealing the depths of their potential infiltration into the Imperium as well as the perversion of their methods and finally answering the questions of whose side the Alpha Legion are on and what they're doing.

The second would be Lorgar v. Guilliman/Lion. From a purely thematic stance Guilliman is the better loyalist to come back as he and Lorgar have more history together. However Guilliman is dead so the Lion becomes the next best bet (similar abilities plus no requirement for an impending apocalypse). Lorgar has been stated to have been 'meditating' privately since pretty much right after the Heresy ended, I'd like to think he's been working on something big. Lorgar's also the initiator of the original Heresy so it works for him to be involved in the 'end' of it as well (in my mind there's really no way to play such a massive change in the fluff as anything other than an end of an era).


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm somewhat confused by your logic and reasoning here. You say you've made these picks because some simply can't come back. Yet you choose Horus? He is literally the most impossible of all the Primarchs to come back. His very soul and essence was obliterated by the Emperor and his body destroyed by Abaddon. There isn't a single way anyone could possibly explain for Horus coming back. Even if he was somehow cloned(I'll humour people that some part of his body survived) it wouldn't be Horus or have any of his presence, personality or self as that Horus was quite sufficiently snuffed out by the big E.
> 
> 
> As for who I would pick. 'Traitor' would be Alpharius/Omegon. Explore where their true loyalties have led for the past 10,000 years, the whole campaign could be based around the reveal that they have infiltrated the Imperium on a colossal level and have manipulated events for millennia. As for the loyalist, I think Russ or the Lion would be the most interesting. Both are fully capable of returning feasibly and in my mind would be the most interesting to see reacting to the current Imperium and dealing with Alpharius and Omegon.


I'd agree with you, accept the storyline of 40k has been so screwed about and mixed up, with any incongruities being put down to different people's personal view point, or in world misunderstanding.

If they wanted to bring one of them back that can't come back then they would find a way. I just said that some of them are implied to be dead dead, rather than just comic book dead (read dead until we can find a wy to bring them back). And the more that they wy they are dead dead, the more people read ino it implying that there is a loop hole.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Wolves v Wolves, you say? Maybe they could call it The Wolftime...
I actually think the more 'loyal' the Primarch, the more chance of a massive Imperial civil war. If, say, Guilliman came back, would what he saw be in any way Imperium Secundus? No. Would Dorn be happy at what the sacrifice of everything he held dear (his father, the Great Crusade's ideals, the beauty and wonder of the Imperial Palace, his sons) had come to, religiosity and ignorance? They would want to put it right and set the leaders back on the right path- after 'chastising' them, of course!
Russ, however, may decide that his loyalty is best served by slaughtering the enemies who caused all of this to happen; so a new Heresy may ignite, or at least a White Crusade. 
So, to eventually to answer, I'd like to see Guilliman return and set ther Imperium on the right path- forwards!!
As for Chaos, that's a bit harder. Mere wanton slaughter is already covered, so something with a bit of substance would be better. How about Perturabo, who's closely allied to the dark Mech (at least for this scenario), causing a fresh schism in the Mechanicus? Maybe a number of siege regiments, full of the same bitterness, would join him; traitor Krieg, anyone?

GFP


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

How about this:

Loyalist: Alpharius

Traitor: Omegon

:spiteful:

EDIT: 


MEQinc said:


> The first is to have Alpharius and Omegon come back, as both the loyalist and traitor Primarchs. But which is which and why? Revealing the depths of their potential infiltration into the Imperium as well as the perversion of their methods and finally answering the questions of whose side the Alpha Legion are on and what they're doing.



Bugger, beaten to it. Great minds think alike, good sir.

EDIT 2: I'm not sure it'd be a very good GW campaign, but it would be a hilarious mindfuck.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

For loyalist it would have to be The Lion he is fucking the best simple as!

Traitor......mmmmm Angron, mad enough and bad enough to get the other traitors to follow


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Lord Commander Solus said:


> How about this:
> 
> Loyalist: Alpharius
> 
> Traitor: Omegon


Honestly, from their actions thus far in the Heresy series I would actually think it'd be the other way around. By and large, it seems like Alpharius supports Horus and Omegon the Emperor. Or at the very least those are the sides they support, not necessarily the respective leaders.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

darkreever said:


> Honestly, from their actions thus far in the Heresy series I would actually think it'd be the other way around. By and large, it seems like Alpharius supports Horus and Omegon the Emperor. Or at the very least those are the sides they support, not necessarily the respective leaders.


Ah, but that's assuming they're that way around. What if Omegon was Alpharius and vice versa? I think either could fit for both sides, really, considering the mind-death that is the Alpha Legion.

They probably wouldn't be iconic leaders, as you point out, but that's not their style. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still kicking in 40k, just kicking secretly.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

The Lion would be the best primarch to come back into 40k without a doubt. Russ is a very close second but i think The Lion would fit quite well into how the current galaxy is at the present time and would probably be the best primarch to cope with how His original plan seemed to have not worked out. i think The Lion would be quite pragmatic about how the imperium operates but id like to see how he would fit into the current imperium as he clearly thought he was equal to Guilleman and would relish the opportunity to be No1 in his fathers empire.

And to be honest, i think the imperium is in desperate need of some super characters to create abit of balance considering all the enemies it has assailing it on a daily basis. abit of uber tactical brainpower wouldnt go amiss right about now for the imperium.


As for the traitor, id be keen to see Lorgar come out of retirement and reveal abit about what his mental state is after being in seclusion for 10k years. i often wonder if he regrets what he did or if he was always still a Emperor Botherer at heart and was just playing some kind of sick twisted game. its lame how mear mortals were able to twist his mind against The Emperor considering Lorgar worshipped him as a god. didnt Lorgar even question why 'Gods' are so hellbent on killing the emperor and why they didnt just do it themselves?! if gods are scared of Him or incapable of killing Him then clearly The Emperor is of a Godly nature too or The Chaos Gods are feeble and not worth worshipping. 

Abit more of a definative answer on that wouldnt go amiss i think.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> 'Cept he's dead.
> But I agree on the principle that Vulkan and Russ wouldn't return unless it was to be the end of humanity - but then that still leaves Khan (lost in the webway), Corax (no clue) and the Lion (comatose on the Rock) available.


Well apparently Angel Exterminatus has revealed that healing in stasis is not impossible 


> What I have found interesting about the story (about 1/2 way through it right now) is that the Heart of Iron can heal individuals within stasis fields. It's an interesting revelation that may be taken by those who believe that Guilliman is healing within his own stasis field as evidence.


(posted on another forum by a member)


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I'd take the Lion as the traitor to return... etc ;-)

I think some great storylines could be made from Alpharius and Omegon that isn't just the usual 'Chaos invading from the warp'.

Loyalist wise, I'd love Russ to come back, but suspect it would more likely be Guilleman to set the imperium on the right track.


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## A_fool_of_a_Took (Oct 28, 2012)

Loving all your ideas guys, it's great to see the reasons everyone has for their choices! 

For me I would have either Guilliman or The Lion return for the loyalists just because they strike me as the characters who would be pragmatic enough to not break the grimdark setting.

For the Traitor primarch? Perturabo strikes me as the on who would think _You know what? I'm going to go fuck up my brother_ He always seems Jealous of his fellow primarchs and would just want to knock them down a peg and then bugger back off into the EOT again.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I for one believe that all primarchs can come back. Why? Because F you that's why.

Now that being said the only traitor primarch that could make for a good campaign is horus. Angron is blood thirsty. Magnus seems to forget he's a primarch half the time.

As for loyalists sanguine. He's loved by all and he's fully capable of leading the imperium. It's also stated that horus and sanguine are the only ones that could go toe to toe with angron and win.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Yeah, the little "problem" we found out in Fear to Tread may put a monkey wrench in that plan.Before everyone saw the Angels (pre-heresy) as great in hand to hand and squeaky clean like the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, and Luna wolves. Now given what we've learned, and the fact that the red thrist is still dominant as the Wolves gene flaw I don't think you want 2 meter muscular vampires in power armor on Terra. That's just me.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

To the ones talking about how Russ would be a great idea, well youre wrong 
No way in hell is he going to get on with inquisition, and i dont think he will take to being revered as a god very well.

But primarily due the fact the inquisition already despises the wolves for being autonomous, if Russ came back, the legion would probably band together under his name, they would be completely loyal to him, the inquisition would see this as a clash of interests, and take the appropriate measures.

Regarding my own choice of which primarchs to choose, i personally, for chaos would chose Mortarion, the only primarch/legion to have step foot in the solar system since the heresy(i think he reached pluto), then considering the fact Draigo carved his name into Mortarions heart, he would probably have a grudge to settle with the grey knights and so have incentive to head towards Terra.

As for the loyalist Primarch, any of the remaining ones would work except for Russ.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> To the ones talking about how Russ would be a great idea, well youre wrong
> No way in hell is he going to get on with inquisition, and i dont think he will take to being revered as a god very well..


Well that was kinda my point.

If Russ (and only Russ) came back you would end up with the imperium being a fully fractured place. It would immediately justify all games of 40K which currently seem a little stretched (why is this dark angels army fighting this blood angels army) because it would leave the imperium as a place where in fighting is completely expected.


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## Capussa (Jun 22, 2012)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> 'Cept he's dead.


But Gullimans wound is healing while in stasis, as noted in the Space Marine codex from second edition, so why not bring him back?


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Roboute Gulliman and Ferrus Manus.

Gulliman for his organizational skills and the fact that his marines are the most prestigious and most likely to gain a following. Ferrus in the hopes that the close ties him and his legion have with the Mechanicum will help pacify their ridiculously strict rules on innovation.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Capussa said:


> But Gullimans wound is healing while in stasis, as noted in the Space Marine codex from second edition, so why not bring him back?


too many threads have devolved into "is x primarch really dead, i think yes/no" and we basically eventually end up to "go fuck yourself", its really best for all parties involved if we just disregard who may or may not be dead.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

Of the traitors, the only ones that are really gone are Lorgar (praying for 8 millennia straight), Perturabo (hiding in a fortress due to paranoia) and Alpharius (who knows?). Of the loyalists, of course, any Primarch except Ferrus and Sanguinius could come back (Dorn's death can be retconned; it doesn't seem nearly as iconic as the other Primarchs' deaths).

My pick would be either:
1. Loyalist-Guilliman, Traitor-Lorgar. Calth grudge match.
2. Loyalist- Vulkan, Traitor-Perturabo. Iron against iron. Plus, Vulkan wouldn't like what the Imperium has become (to, I think, an even greater extent than Guilliman- though both of these would be interesting).


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Lorgar emerges from the Warp leading several Chaos Legions, brandishing a new Testament that reveres the Emperor as a new powerful Chaos God, taking the Ecclisarchy into a wave of rapture for the coming of the 'Star Child'.

As Lorgar enters real space, Guillaumin opens his eyes, fully aware of what had been taking place for millenia, but unable to spark his revival until his fellow Primarch emerged. Guillaumin has realized the danger to the species of the original Codex Astares breaking up the loyalist legions, and recants them altogether, instead replacing them with the Codex Primaris. The new Codex reforms the Legions under the strongest Chapter Masters as the new Legio Militant, with the remaining chapter masters each retaining sub-command. The Imperial Guard and Navy are reformed to primarly support the Legions once again, but then to also provide stronger and more capable planetary strike forces.

The Ecclisiarchy and about a third of the IG/IN are completely swayed by the new Dark Ecclisarch, while the Lords of Terra appoint Guillaumin as the Imperial Warmaster.

The Inquisition breaks about 25% for the Dark Ecclisiarch.

The reformed legions defend Terra from the predations of the Dark Ecclisarch (aka Lorgar) and start a new crusade that seeks to purge worship of the Emperor as a God, starting with the Mechanicum on Mars and their misinformed worship of the Omnissiah.

Lets take the Imperium from grimdark to absolute chaos and internal warfare. For a game, it would certainly mobilize every type of troops you can think of, but allow the fielding of huge Astares armies. I think Guillaumin would bring the Imperium into a new golden age eventually, but would have to eliminate a significant portion of the Imperial population in the process of about 500 - 600 years. Assuming either the Orks, Necron, or Tyranids don't get them first...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Lorgar emerges from the Warp leading several Chaos Legions, brandishing a new Testament that reveres the Emperor as a new powerful Chaos God, taking the Ecclisarchy into a wave of rapture for the coming of the 'Star Child'.
> 
> As Lorgar enters real space, Guillaumin opens his eyes, fully aware of what had been taking place for millenia, but unable to spark his revival until his fellow Primarch emerged. Guillaumin has realized the danger to the species of the original Codex Astares breaking up the loyalist legions, and recants them altogether, instead replacing them with the Codex Primaris. The new Codex reforms the Legions under the strongest Chapter Masters as the new Legio Militant, with the remaining chapter masters each retaining sub-command. The Imperial Guard and Navy are reformed to primarly support the Legions once again, but then to also provide stronger and more capable planetary strike forces.
> 
> ...


No matter what primarch comes back the sisters of battle and the inquistion will have to be wiped out. All of them.

Gulliman is the most likely. But in reality can we say for sure a primarch is dead? 

I mean the emperor is being kept alive by the golden throne. He has to stay alive because he's keeping that warp rift shut on terra. 

He created the primarchs and dorn himself doesn't know what he capable of. And frankly we have no idea just how powerful the emperor is.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The growning consensus of fluff bs hints and allegations from the HH books points toward the primarchs being infused with the warp by the not all willing Chaos Gods at the hands of the Emperor. Not that I'm a huge Guilliumin fan, since I far prefer both Magnus and Russ as personalities, but can posit that outside of the stasis he still has the warp in him. What glorious torture for him to be not dead, but not living; fully aware, but not cognizant; having one of the most powerful potentials in sentient history, but utterly unable to exercise a whit of influence. Ya' gotta' admit, even from a RG hater, that's pretty screwed up and a worthy damnation of the Chaos Gods, regardless of your hopes that he'll one day wake up.

And I'm in no way trying to rekindle the discussion of Guillaumin's state of life or death.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Somehow the Heart of Iron is used to heal Guilliman in stasis
The Khan also returns

My fanboy wet dreams


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## Pipe 42 (Nov 18, 2010)

Nice Question. For me, I was initially thinking the Lion myself but here's a scenario.

Loyalist: 

Robute Guilleman and here's why. 

He comes back from the dead so to speak and sees what has become of the Imperium. He goes to the High Lords of Terra and tells them to pack it in and this wasn't what the Emperor wanted. The High Lords panic at the potential loss of their power and declare him Excommunicate Traitorus for not venerating the Emperor as he should. Now obviously we know this is wrong but it could lead to some interesting things. Who sides with the Primarch potentially rendering themselves traitors and who sides with the Administratum? This could lead to a 3 way civil war between Robute/Imperium and Chaos. Turning things upside down and allowing more Ork/Tyranid etc encroachment as they fight.

Traitors:

Tough one but I'm going to go with Lorgar if we were to see the above scenario. Two main reasons. 10000 years sitting on your bum, Daemon or otherwise, you have to stretch your legs sooner or later. What has he learned during this time? Some way to become a new Chaos God? How to revive the Emperor so he can worship/attempt to kill him?

Secondly, due to the nature of the High Lords as extreme zealots, when Robute starts kicking their asses, their faith falters and perhaps Lorgar can use his powers of oration to tempt them into following Gods who are more 'hands on' so to speak?

This could then mean that everything is turned upside down and you have choices in setting. Dupes of the High Lords fighting loyalist marines working for Guilleman. Chaos striking forth and using increased power to corrupt entire sectors of the galaxy. The Primarchs forces having a crisis of faith but following the Codex Astartes and learning to think for themselves again.

Damn.... Do this GW and all is forgiven for the power creep and Grey Knight Codex!


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Corax and Alphirus\Omegon. Why?, Corax was one of the few primarchs to utalize alternative and inovative thinking on his legion strategy. Hit and run guerrilla warfare which can be used by a smaller force to tie up a larger one. with an imperium besieged on all fronts this kind of warfare could be incrediably useful to allow for the shifting about of resources. Alphirus and Omegon would just be interesting for reasons already stated.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

I really want sanguineous to come back... but, ya know, not bloody likely... so ill have to go with the Lion.

Barring that, have the 2 "unkown" chapters, from the IV and XI legions, just cuz I really want to see what the hell they are about.

Seriously though, I think Sanguineous vs Lorgar would just be awesoeme - there would be an absurd amount of bloodshed. Ok, picture this.

So somehow Sanguineous is raised back to life, maybe his spirit returns and creates its own body back, finds and restores the broken body, or even takes Dante's/some other marine's/maybe even rafen's? body and supercharges it. You with me so far? He would go about the imperium fixing shit and making sure the lords of terror had honor, and all that. Why? Because he's sanguineous. Then, Lorgar would get super pissed about his returning, come back from his self-imposed isolation, and lead his legions to smother the blood angels and their successors. The entire imperium would rally behind the banner of Blood, and chaos would do the same. Blood for blood, ashes to ashes, from death to life we rise again. Sanguineous returned for the glory of the Empire!

Oh yeah, and he's a f**king badass with golden armor, wings, and a spear that just kills everything.
The end.


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