# Primarchs' Anthology - less 1 Primarch



## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Dunno if anyone noticed this yet, but it seems that they have dropped Alpharius/Omegon from the Anthology and instead replaced them with Curze...

Not sure if this is good or not, as it is definitely interesting to read about the NL primarch, though I was even more interested to read about the enigmatic AL primarchs....

_THE STORY
Created in the Emperor’s own image, the primarchs had long thought themselves to be princes of the universe and masters of their own destiny – they led the Space Marine Legions in glorious conquest of the galaxy, and no enemy of the Imperium could stand against them. However, even amongst this legendary brotherhood, the seeds of dissent had been sown long before the treacherous Warmaster Horus declared his grand heresy. 

ABOUT THE BOOK
Gathered within this anthology are four novellas focusing on some of the mightiest warriors and leaders that mankind has ever known – Fulgrim, Lion El’Johnson, Ferrus Manus and Konrad Curze – and the roles that they may have yet to play in a war which threatens to change the face of the Imperium forever._

Shame.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Yeah, this is gutting me immensely. I really like Rob Sanders' work. Humbug.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

BOOO!! HISS!!! Although I like reading about all the Primarchs, the Alpha Legion intrigue me quite a bit. Oh well, maybe they have chosen to make it into a bigger story? Time will tell


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm going to go on a limb and hope this signals Sanders being made a full novel author for the HH. 

If not, I'll just have to cry.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yeah I noticed this some time ago. On a positive note we will get lots of Alpha love in Deliverance Lost. Hopefully Rob Sanders will get a full length HH novel, although the running order at the moment is G.Thorpe (Deliverance Lost), Abnett (Know No Fear), ADB/GM/CW/NK (Primarchs anthology), James Swallow (Fear to Tread), and ADB (Untitled World Eaters/Word Bearers book) so it will most likely be early to mid 2013, and I believe GM is planning an Iron Warriors novel for then as well so it could be pushed back further.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

I really liked Dan Abnett's portrayal of the AL...shame it's not him who's continuing it....


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well thats immensely annoying, along with the Lion, the Alpharius/Omegon story was the what i was looking forward to most.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

would've preferred to have Khan in it...we have nothing on that guy


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

NIKT208 said:


> Yeah I noticed this some time ago. On a positive note we will get lots of Alpha love in Deliverance Lost. Hopefully Rob Sanders will get a full length HH novel, although the running order at the moment is G.Thorpe (Deliverance Lost), Abnett (Know No Fear), ADB/GM/CW/NK (Primarchs anthology), James Swallow (Fear to Tread), and ADB (Untitled World Eaters/Word Bearers book) so it will most likely be early to mid 2013, and I believe GM is planning an Iron Warriors novel for then as well so it could be pushed back further.


ADB is doing 'Butcher's Nails' about the World Eaters, it's due in June (before Fear to Tread).


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

Marcoos said:


> ADB is doing 'Butcher's Nails' about the World Eaters, it's due in June (before Fear to Tread).


He is doing that as well, it will effectively set the scene for his forthcoming HH novel. From what I know the Butchers Nails is a bridge between the end of Aurelian and his World Eaters book.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, hopefully we get an entire Alpharius Omegon book. That would be awesome. Since the HH series, the AL has been rising in popularity. Hopefully BL picked up on this and that's why they did the change.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

NIKT208 said:


> He is doing that as well, it will effectively set the scene for his forthcoming HH novel. From what I know the Butchers Nails is a bridge between the end of Aurelian and his World Eaters book.


Ah good point. I had Buthcers Nails penciled in as the Novel, but from the price it looks to be a new audio book. Even better:so_happy:


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Meh.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Likely i'll be shouted down for this but, YEAH! Anything with more Curze is a good thing, I want to see his childhood. He's one of a few Primarchs whose childhoods would actually be interesting along with Alpharius Omegon, Ferrus Manus, Angron and Mortarion.


LotN


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

To be honest, Ferrus Manus is one they could have skipped if you asked me. He's not that intruiging, the same for Khan. I would have preferred to read more of Alpharius. Unless as some might have mentioned, his book might have been expanded into a fullfledged nove, which Im duly ok with.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Alpharius/Omegon weren't removed from the book. They were never in it to begin with, all more deception to make people wonder about the Alpha Legion.

:wink:


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Alpharius/Omegon weren't removed from the book. They were never in it to begin with, all more deception to make people wonder about the Alpha Legion.
> 
> :wink:


They were at first, then got bumped out...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chaosveteran said:


> They were at first, then got bumped out...


Think you may have missed the point ^^


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Good shout, Wusword.

Anyway, it's been cleared: Sanders' Alpha Legion story's still on the way, it's just not for _The Primarchs_, which is cool by me. 

As there's mention of a few other HH novellas on the way which aren't in _The Primarchs_ (such as John French's _The Crimson Fist_), I assume there's either a novella-compilation on the way or, perhaps, a series of novellas too. (PoD? Limited Editions? Anthology? £3-'dreadfuls'? [The Storm of Magic novellas were utterly tremendous.])


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## M3N0N26 (Sep 18, 2008)

I really think its time to shed more light on Mortarion, Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan and Ferrus, they've had next to no love in HH so far :/


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

M3N0N26 said:


> I really think its time to shed more light on Mortarion, Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan and Ferrus, they've had next to no love in HH so far :/


yes...we really don't need more Fulgrim and Curze

those two have been explored amply, time for some other primarchs to receive the spotlight


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> yes...we really don't need more Fulgrim and Curze
> 
> those two have been explored amply, time for some other primarchs to receive the spotlight


Indeed, we're getting Corax in Deliverance Lost. But the Khan, Ferrus, Mortatrion, Perturabo and (perhaps to a lesser extent after Promethan Sun) Vulkan are all still woefully unexplored.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> yes...we really don't need more Fulgrim and Curze
> 
> those two have been explored amply, time for some other primarchs to receive the spotlight


Curze? Explored amply where? He's one of the least-mentioned primarchs in the Heresy. Practically all the requests I get are emails and messages asking for him and the Night Lords to get some Horus Heresy screen time.

In a book with Ferrus Manus and the Lion, who've both received much more time and attention than Curze, it's _Curze _you're objecting to? But... why?

Even if I'd rather it was a few primarchs we've seen nothing of so far, even I have to admit it's overdue that Curze got some time in the spotlight.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Curze? Explored amply where? He's one of the least-mentioned primarchs in the Heresy. Practically all the requests I get are emails and messages asking for him and the Night Lords to get some Horus Heresy screen time.


mainly from NL fans I'd wager



> In a book with Ferrus Manus and the Lion, who've both received much more time and attention than Curze, it's _Curze _you're objecting to? But... why?


you're right...I've had enough of those primarchs, Curze included
the primarchs anthology could've been a great opportunity to explore truly neglected primarchs such as Khan, Mortarion, and Perturabo

compared to the above primarchs, Curze _has_ been amply explored in Lightning Tower/Dark King and all the flashback scenes in the NL series
heck, Curze has been more explored than Guilliman
ironically, there has been almost no BL material dealing directly with the primarch of the poster-boy legion


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> mainly from NL fans I'd wager
> 
> 
> you're right...I've had enough of those primarchs, Curze included
> ...


I'm not saying there aren't any primarchs explored less. I agree several deserve more screen time. But to object to one that's had almost none at all seems odd. Vague mentions in a non-HH series aren't something everyone will know, which leaves Curze having an audio drama several years ago, and very briefly featuring in a short story - and one chapter of a novel - always from other characters' points of view. 

All the people saying they want to see Curze have a very valid point, whether they're Night Lord fans or not. It's not suddenly invalid if all the people asking for Sanguinius are Blood Angel fans, as if a fan of one thing is somehow unable to like anything else, or their opinion is void for wanting to see something in the series. We know next to nothing about Curze or his Legion in the Heresy, as we've seen next to none of them.

Like I said, I agree that several other primarchs need some airtime, but objecting to Curze and not objecting to the Lion or Ferrus Manus seems pretty pointless. If you don't like a character, sure, just admit that. But don't say you're sick of him because he's been explored so much, when he's barely been mentioned in the series at all. 

The Lion has had two novels, a short story, and is getting a novella in _The Primarchs_. And Ferrus Manus was a major character in _Fulgrim_, also getting into _The Primarchs_. You didn't object to them, which is why specifically complaining about a character with less air time than either of those is a bit odd.

Comparing Curze's amount of screentime to Guilliman is also kinda weird, seeing as one of the very next HH novels has Guilliman on the cover, and is essentially his major story in the Heresy.

Incidentally, the team get a lot of feedback from many angles, and Curze (and a Night Lords HH novel) is always one of the ones people clamour for.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I think with Curze we already feel that we know a lot about him. I have yet to read the Night Lords series, but still think I have a good feel for Curze from the background material. 

On the other hand I know very little and I am intrigued by Mortarion's motivations (pre-Nurgle), Perturabo and, indeed, the Lion is very much a mystery despite getting a comparatively large amount of attention.

I'm sure all the Primarchs will get appropriate attention in time, but I can understand why people might prefer to see more of x or less of y.


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## M3N0N26 (Sep 18, 2008)

We REALLY need a novel on Mortarion and Perturabo. 

Mortarion has next to no backstory, its just ridiculous at present and needs fleshing out.

"I feel closer to Horus so I'm going to backstab my daddy and wait till I get stuck in a warp storm and become Nurgles bitch".

I'd really kill for a Death Guard novel >.> But I'm guessing White Scars/Death Guard will get explored probably just before the siege of terra, Death Guard from the warp storm perspective and White Scars from the defense of terra PoV. Iron Warriors I got no idea :/


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Whilst i agree the Lion has had enough spotlight for now. I disagree that Kurze is one of the most unexplored primarchs. Compared to the Khan and Perturabo(who i think are the top(bottom?) two) he has had more than enough. So far the Khan hasn't even had a single sentence and has just the one 'scene' if you can even call it that in _A Thousand Sons_ on Ullanor. Perturabo had a small appearence in Aureullian. But beyond that, they've got fuck all. Mortarions barely had much either, sure he had a bit in again _A Thousand Sons_ and of course _Flight of the Eisenstien_, but i would still say he's got less than Kurze. Nor do i think Ferrus as had more limelight or even as much as Kurze.

Given the choice i would have the Khan, Perturabo, Mortarion and Ferrus


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Perturabo (and the Iron Warriors) is said to make some bigger apperarence in McNeils next HH-book apparently, together with Fulgrim.  So we get some there at least. I agree on manys points that Khan has the least screen-time so far, but he is the Primarch I have least interest in, so Im not that much of caring.

Curze, Fulgrim, Perturabo, (to some extent) Mortarion and Alpharius is those I would like to see more of. Ferrus Manus and Khan I dont.

Edit: Also, one who has had most screen-time is no doubt Rogal Dorn, funnily enough.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Well I'm loving the fact that ADB is writing a story about Konrad in the HH timeline. As with all his other work I'm sure it will be fantastic. 

I would like to hear about Mortarion at some point though and I'm sure that will happen in time.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Like I said, I agree that several other primarchs need some airtime, but objecting to Curze and not objecting to the Lion or Ferrus Manus seems pretty pointless.


OK...in my initial post, I only listed Fulgrim and Curze (instead of all four primarchs to be featured in the anthology)

but by now, it should be clear that I'm not singling out Curze (or Fulgrim)
I mean, I've already said:


MontytheMighty said:


> Dead.Blue.Clown said:
> 
> 
> > In a book with Ferrus Manus and the Lion, who've both received much more time and attention than Curze, it's _Curze _you're objecting to? But... why?
> ...


by "those primarchs", I meant the Lion, Ferrus, Fulgrim and Curze (not just the latter two)
to be perfectly clear, all the primarchs (including Curze) on that list have been explored enough so that other primarchs would make (in my opinion) better choices for the anthology 
you may now rest assured that I don't think that the Lion and Ferrus are awesome choices for the anthology either

*oh yes, I forgot to mention _Savage Weapons_ in addition to the NL series and _Lightning Tower/Dark King_



> If you don't like a character, sure, just admit that. But don't say you're sick of him because he's been explored so much


nope, that has nothing to do with why I think Curze is a poor choice for the anthology (a poor choice, not the worst mind you)
as I've made abundantly clear by now, there are other [even] less explored primarchs whose individual development would be far better served by inclusion the anthology 



increaso said:


> I think with Curze we already feel that we know a lot about him. I have yet to read the Night Lords series, but still think I have a good feel for Curze from the background material. On the other hand I know very little and I am intrigued by Mortarion's motivations (pre-Nurgle), Perturabo and, indeed, the Lion is very much a mystery despite getting a comparatively large amount of attention.


yes, agreed
I feel that we know more about what makes Curze tick than we do about what makes the Lion tick 

the Lion's name is name-dropped a lot, but to me, the character is still more of a mystery than Curze is 



Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst i agree the Lion has had enough spotlight for now. I disagree that Kurze is one of the most unexplored primarchs. Compared to the Khan and Perturabo(who i think are the top(bottom?) two) he has had more than enough. So far the Khan hasn't even had a single sentence and has just the one 'scene' if you can even call it that in _A Thousand Sons_ on Ullanor. Perturabo had a small appearence in Aureulian.


Khan and Perturabo are criminally under-used 
seriously, I have even trouble picturing what Perturabo looks like (beyond fan art and (I think) one picture from Collected Visions) 

the White Scars and the Khan...wow, one of the coolest ideas for a primarch and a legion yet for some reason they get no love (except from Andy Hoare)


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

The Lion had two novels to him, whereas Curze had an audio drama, which was not available to some due to the whole audio vs. paperback argument...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Chaosveteran said:


> The Lion had two novels to him, whereas Curze had an audio drama, which was not available to some due to the whole audio vs. paperback argument...


He has _Lightning Tower/Dark King_, scenes in the NL series, and the short story _Savage Weapons_

among the 18 known primarchs, I personally would have liked to have read about Perturabo, Khan, Mortarion, and Vulkan/Corax/Alpharius

1) Lion El'Jonson

2) Fulgrim

3) Perturabo

4) Jaghatai Khan

5) Leman Russ

6) Rogal Dorn

7) Night Haunter

8) Sanguinius

9) Ferrus Manus

10) Angron

11) Roboute Guilliman

12) Mortarion

13) Magnus the Red

14) Horus

15) Lorgar

16) Vulkan

17) Corax

18) Alpharius, Omegon


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I found this source rather interesting.  Written this past weekend.

http://rob-sanders.blogspot.com/2012/02/primarchs.html


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BL seem to keep changing their mind as to which novellas will be included in _The Primarchs_. Originally _The Serpent Beneath_ was included, then was removed in favour of the _Prince of Crows_ (still the case when _KNF_ was printed), now it seems that Curze's novella will be replaced by _The Serpent Beneath_... again.

If this is now the case, I wonder when the _Prince of Crows_ will make an appearance.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> BL seem to keep changing their mind as to which novellas will be included in _The Primarchs_. Originally _The Serpent Beneath_ was included, then was removed in favour of the _Prince of Crows_ (still the case when _KNF_ was printed), now it seems that Curze's novella will be replaced by _The Serpent Beneath_... again.
> 
> If this is now the case, I wonder when the _Prince of Crows_ will make an appearance.


There's a second HH (novella?) anthology out later this year/early next: _Shadows of Treachery_. It's my understanding that TSB and PoC are switching between them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

That could well be the case then.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, we're getting Corax in Deliverance Lost. But the Khan, Ferrus, Mortatrion, Perturabo and (perhaps to a lesser extent after Promethan Sun) Vulkan are all still woefully unexplored.


I am quite surprised the Heresy Team did what it did in terms of selecting certain legions to start the series in and then just expanding events from there. It leaves very much of the rest of the legions in question. Even Mortarion didn't really have a novel that described his fall. 

Perhaps it was that idea that they were only going to do 3 novels and just had to wrap it up. But then you had _Fulgrim_. And that novel in my opinion was the first novel that really got you interested with what and how the other traitor legions got involved. 

No we've done the _Know No Fear_, and soon we will be getting _Fear to Tread_. We still haven't seen the fall of Perturabo, Angron, Mortarion who were really important legions on Istvaan. We haven't heard a word from Khan. To be fair with Vulkan we just got word from Corax in _Deliverance Lost_.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I still want a book dedicated to Dorn, but then again I'm just being selfish 

I wanna read more about Angron, which we soon will be. 

I want to read anything about Khan, he seems to be mentioned here and there and usually in a good way.."Guilliman admires him, said to be the best swordsmen.." If we've not got anything on him soon then I don't think we will until the Siege of the Emperor's Palace.

Mortarion is just a mystery, why did he turn, there has to be some reason and I'd hate it to be the same as Pertruabo's reason which afaik he was jealous and generally an idiot.

Pertruabo comes across as much as a whiner as I thought Lorgar was originally except replace Guilliman with Dorn.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Perturabo and Mortarion (and Angron, to an extent) all display _vaguely_ similar thoughts on their Heresy as with Horus (as he was at the outset and first section of _False Gods_).

That is: there's a sense of injustice about how they're being treated, how the Imperium is 'flourishing'. They're beginning to buy into the idea that the Emperor is a tyrant. First with Lorgar at Monarchia, now the idea that he's gunning for Night Haunter. There's the big shindig of Nikaea too...Magnus kinda deserves it, but, say, with the rumour that Russ is summoned to Terra to be dispatched against Magnus? That's severe. 

So I'd be very keen to see all this explored, but on the other hand...how to do it? It's rich, but there's a danger in retreading old and well-trodden ground. There's plenty to be explored, but it's difficult to put a finger on how.

---

*Aurelian Hints*

There's a tiny, brief glimpse of something (IMO) truly wonderful in _Aurelian_. Just as they're leaving Lorgar & Horus alone, there's a snatch of a moment where you get a tiny peek into a world where Angron and Perturabo inhabit a long-suffering, bromance/odd-couple sitcom.

Add Mortarion in as their next door neighbour and I think there's enough meat on those bones to allow for a magnificent development. A 'parallel' development which goes along with Night Haunter's and Horus' and Lorgar's and Magnus', but isn't as 'out of the blue' as Fulgrim's.

That is: a woven story bouncing between the three legions and their primarchs, charting the ever-growing dissatisfaction with the Imperium, with the way the Terran administrators are pushing things. But not just a politics-versus-military style, a deeper and more interesting philosophical-thriller, punctuated by awesome and iconic engagements throughout the centuries of the Great Crusade. (And thus allowing a long series of _slightly_ temporally disconnected scenes with other primarchs and other senior figures from other legions.

I don't know about you lot, but those 'moments' in the Heresy books where we get interaction between legions are always the most enjoyable: Wyrdmake & Ahriman, Loken & Sigismund, Grammaticus & the Alpha Legionnaires, Loken & Raldoron, Garro & Tarvitz, Garro & Fabius, that Dark Angel and the White Scar, the Primarchs at Nikaea, most inclusions of Dorn & the Imperial Fists, Lorgar & Magnus and so forth.

There's a massive wealth of interactions that is just...really engrossing. A novel (think ATS sized) tracking the course of three traitor Legions across many centuries, right up until (and beyond) the point where Horus says "how about some civil disobedience and rebellion against this Tyrant on Terra?" and they say "it's about bloody time...".

That is: _make it plausible, almost seamless_.

I just need to learn how to write...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Xisor said:


> Perturabo and Mortarion (and Angron, to an extent) all display _vaguely_ similar thoughts on their Heresy as with Horus (as he was at the outset and first section of _False Gods_).
> 
> That is: there's a sense of injustice about how they're being treated, how the Imperium is 'flourishing'. They're beginning to buy into the idea that the Emperor is a tyrant. First with Lorgar at Monarchia, now the idea that he's gunning for Night Haunter. There's the big shindig of Nikaea too...Magnus kinda deserves it, but, say, with the rumour that Russ is summoned to Terra to be dispatched against Magnus? That's severe.
> 
> ...


I like this guy. I want to sacrifice this guy to the blood god. 

I do agree with the fact that Angron and Perturabo shared a little "bromance" in ADB's limited time novel. It is slightly hinted in _Horus Rising_ when Dan Abnett almost puts them in their own category of satisfaction against Horus as Warmaster. 

The only problem with expanding upon this is that they have very different backgrounds. Angron was the one that defied being part of the Imperium and wanted to die along with his slave brothers. Perturabo was one of the easiest to bow the the Emperor and he did it willingly. Contrary to Angron and a brotherhood amongst his men, Perturabo never trusted the Olympians. 

Angron is an angry hot head where Perturabo is cold and logical. Combat tactics also seem opposite. So that would be interesting if they would close in someway. I know Perturabo is described as being the most distant of the Primarchs. It could be that is not completely true.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

ckcrawford said:


> The only problem with expanding upon this is that they have very different backgrounds. Angron was the one that defied being part of the Imperium and wanted to die along with his slave brothers. Perturabo was one of the easiest to bow the the Emperor and he did it willingly. Contrary to Angron and a brotherhood amongst his men, Perturabo never trusted the Olympians.
> 
> Angron is an angry hot head where Perturabo is cold and logical. Combat tactics also seem opposite. So that would be interesting if they would close in someway. I know Perturabo is described as being the most distant of the Primarchs. It could be that is not completely true.


Opposites attract


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I like this guy. I want to sacrifice this guy to the blood god.
> 
> I do agree with the fact that Angron and Perturabo shared a little "bromance" in ADB's limited time novel. It is slightly hinted in _Horus Rising_ when Dan Abnett almost puts them in their own category of satisfaction against Horus as Warmaster.
> 
> ...


He can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think _Xisor_ was suggesting a truly close bond existed between Perturabo and Angron, nothing on the scale of a "bromance." But rather the bond brought about by shared experience and aligned opinion - which Mortarion can be included in as well.

It doesn't matter how different their backgrounds were, this trio of Primarchs shared a common sense of injustice during the Great Crusade.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I could see Angron truly bonding with some of his brothers. You see how loyal he was to his fellow slaves and heartbroken he was when he could not help them. When someone meets his expectations I think he would be your most loyal friend...until maybe the next mindless beserk state


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think _Xisor_ was suggesting a truly close bond existed between Perturabo and Angron, nothing on the scale of a "bromance." But rather the bond brought about by shared experience and aligned opinion - which Mortarion can be included in as well.
> 
> It doesn't matter how different their backgrounds were, this trio of Primarchs shared a common sense of injustice during the Great Crusade.


Almost, but I am suggesting a bromance, after a fashion

Look at _After Desh'ea_: it's through Kharn's retelling of Perturabo fighting for and with the Emperor that Angron 'calms down'. 

As a starting point and longer-running arc, the differences ckcrawrford illuminates are pretty important, but that's juxtaposed by the fact that they still come to resent the Emperor in a manner.

If anything, it might be argued that from Perturabo, Angron learns to 'love the Imperium', to bond with the rest of humanity and the other Astartes & Primarchs, yet from Angron, Perturabo learns the 'inhumanity' of the Emperor, the gulf that separates them. Also, as Cowlicker says. 

Indeed, I think it'd be a very interesting aspect if Perturabo, Angron and Mortarion all, between themselves, adopt a business-like relationship with the Emperor and other primarchs, becoming _friends_ and _colleagues_ rather than family.

In that manner, when the three of them side with Horus, they're really doing it as secessionists and rebels, not as rogue elements or outright heretics. Or even 'betrayers'. They genuinely believe the Emperor's abandoned them. Perhaps they even have evidence and good reasons to believe it, not just the same 'loss and angst' that Horus feels. (Though I'd add that HR and FG do that feeling very nicely, especially the pre-Dream Sequence _False Gods_.)

Running with that, I think it's an immense storytelling opportunity, not least because there are many other dimensions to it too: the Astartes themselves have needs which cannot be ignored (note the Typhon/Erebus/Abaddon push for 'Astartes Rule' - they broadly think the Primarchs are tools, not rulers), there's their outlooks on humanity, their view to the Martian Mechanicum, the role of psykers and their brothers in and leading up to Nikaea. Even just outright political things like 'how societies should be governed'. 

We know a few outlooks from across the Primarchs: shepherded (Vulkan & Lorgar), dominated by fear and might (Night Haunter), egalitarian 'tyranny' (Magnus, Dorn & Guilliman), from the shadows (Alpharius) etc. Playing with this from Mortarion and Perturabo would be pretty interesting (especially with scenes and musings on discussions had with other primarchs and 'players' in the Imperium), with Angron being something of a wildcard in such discussions.

It'd be easy to write Angron off as comic relief, to an extent, but in _After Desh'ea_ we're really given no option (not that authors shouldn't go this way anyway) but to force him (and the World Eaters) into a more interesting place. (Look at Angron in the opening five books: about as interesting as someone who's only response is "GRAAAGH!".)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd be interested to see a Primarch actually have a fight with Angron. We know he's a very angry man with deep psychological problems, but we only see him going mad against normal troops, it would be nice to actually see his true abilities like we've begun to see in other primarchs, like Lorgar, Curze, Corax etc.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Have to admit I'm not a fan of Rob Sanders. I Hated atlas infernal. Hope he doesn't do a heresy book to be honest. Who Is writing each of the novellas in the primarchs?


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

Graham McNeill: something about Fulgrim (Name?)
Rob Sanders- The Serpent Beneath
Gav Thorpe - The Lion
Nick Kyme - Feat of iron (Ferrus Manus)


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Thorpe writing The Lion im looking forward to, but i really cant make my mind up on Kyme doing the Iron Hands, they are one of my fav loyalist chapters and i dont think he could give them the same greatness im expecting, really hope McNeill would.of done Iron Hands.


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## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

I am with you guys. I fear that Sanders will ruin Alpharius as will Kyme with Ferrus.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

I see no Sanguinius or Dorn....or Khan....Hmmm interesting the 3 Primarchs at terra are left out.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shadow Walker said:


> I am with you guys. I fear that Sanders will ruin Alpharius as will Kyme with Ferrus.


Well I don't think that, not at all. It will certainly be a different take to Abnett's but that won't necessarily be a bad thing.



Azkaellon said:


> I see no Sanguinius or Dorn....or Khan....Hmmm interesting the 3 Primarchs at terra are left out.


Sanguinius will feature in _Fear to Tread_ and rumours are abound that Abnett desires to write a White Scars novel.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I've fallen a little behind the series, so it's nice to know that'll I have a broader selection of Primarchs to read about when I catch up.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Will Dorn get a book for himself or is he destined to just have cameos?


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Always amusing to read people going on about certain writers ruining legions/primarchs for them. What, you thought that a writer gets exclusive control over things? Just because Aaron for example has done so well with Word Bearers doesn't mean that another writer can't come in and deliver. Aaron would be a sort of natural choice since he is already written about them, but for people to just assume things is irrational. 

The same goes for Dan/Luna Wolves/Alpha Legion or Jim/Garro.

Saying that new writers are going to screw up certain factions is the kind of blinkered thinking that is all too prevalent on GW fan forums and is pretty much the worst kind of bandwagon to jump onto.

But moving on to the thread itself.

I'm really looking forward to Rob's take on the Alpha Legion. I liked his short story in Victories of the Space Marines and I've chatted with him a little about the Alpha Legion and I'm pretty confident that The Serpent Beneath is going to rock. Plus he's written one of the best SMB novels ever, so yeah. His Iron Warriors short in Age of Darkness was also fantastic so I hope he gets a chance to do a full length HH novel soon.

As for Prince of Crows, I'm on the fence about it. While Curze is one of the ones we know so little about, I'm with the people who want the HH series to tackle the Khan, Perturabo and Mortarion. Especially after that god-awesome cover art for The Primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Will Dorn get a book for himself or is he destined to just have cameos?


Considering he spent the entire Heresy organising the defence of Terra, I don't imagine he will make a major appearance until the Siege of Terra. Although he has featured in many minor roles so far:

_Horus Rising.
Flight of the Eisenstein.
Mechanicum.
Nemesis.
The Outcast Dead.
Deliverance Lost.
Blood Games.
The Last Remembrancer.
The Lightning Tower._



shadowhawk2008 said:


> I'm really looking forward to Rob's take on the Alpha Legion.


Me too.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I know, I was just really taken with his perspective in the lightning tower and I don't think his appearances else where have spoilt that view of him. I'd really like a full book coming from mostly his point of view. I was hoping with Primarchs we'd get to see the fight he had with Perturabo when he said he could defend against anything Perturabo could throw at him which made Perturabo go nuts.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> rumours are abound that Abnett desires to write a White Scars novel.


I think the working title is "Unremembered Empire"...any confirmation on this? I have no idea when it will see the light of day, if ever.


mal310 said:


> Heavily hinted at Main Novels
> 
> Untitled HH World Eater Book - Aaron Dembski-Bowden
> Untitled HH Salamanderes Book - Nick Kyme
> Unremembered Empire - Dan Abnett


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think the working title is "Unremembered Empire"...any confirmation on this? I have no idea when it will see the light of day, if ever.


_Unremembered Empire_ is said to indirectly continue on from _Know No Fear_ though, so I can't see it being about the White Scars. On that note I do recall the phrase _"Unremembered Empire"_ cropping up in _Know No Fear_, if anyone has the Ebook edition could you search for it, it may give us a few clues...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It does pop up, it talks about the underground wars and how they are unremembered, like the empire that followed them and the heresy that ended it all.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Ah I see. Hmmm...then I really don't know. I thought "Unremembered Empire" was related to the empire Jaghatai conquered on Chogoris. I guess I can only keep my fingers crossed.

By the way, would you guys prefer an "origins" White Scars HH novel (Chogoris, early Great Crusade) or a novel focusing on events later along the timeline (Chondax System, Siege of Terra)?


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> By the way, would you guys prefer an "origins" White Scars HH novel (Chogoris, early Great Crusade) or a novel focusing on events later along the timeline (Chondax System, Siege of Terra)?


Oh, Heresey stuff, definitely. I think we're a bit too far down the timeline now for origins now, unless it is woven in like in Deliverance Lost. They'll have to have the White Scars for the seige (although I suspect they'll be a distant 3rd behind the BAs and Fists), but it would be nice to meet a few of them first...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Ah I see. Hmmm...then I really don't know. I thought "Unremembered Empire" was related to the empire Jaghatai conquered on Chogoris. I guess I can only keep my fingers crossed.
> 
> By the way, would you guys prefer an "origins" White Scars HH novel (Chogoris, early Great Crusade) or a novel focusing on events later along the timeline (Chondax System, Siege of Terra)?


Definitely an Age of Darkness-era White Scars novel. Another _Descent of Angels_ style novel would be pointless and irrelevant at this point in the series. In fact even early in the series _Descent of Angels_ was criticised for being irrelevant - it's contribution being summed up recently by _Phoebus_:


Phoebus said:


> ...The story itself felt more like an afterthought to the point behind the story itself. Given that this wasn't to advance the tale of the Heresy in any way, this boiled down to a rather lackluster (unfortunately) attempt to show the origins of the Dark Angels, how the Lion was discovered, and why Luther was exiled. A lot of folks have mentioned that "Descent of Angels" is better when read directly before "Fallen Angels", but I'll go a step further (or backward?): I think one can reasonably argue that most of "Descent of Angels" could have been summarized into a few pages of introductory, descriptive narrative. Luther's exile at the end of the novel is virtually the only event of note.
> 
> I really hate to sound this harsh toward a person who, at the end of the day, sought only to please fans of the milieu and the Dark Angels, but ultimately I don't feel like "Descent of Angels" really delivered. We got to see the reason why Luther was exiled (valid), and we got a taste or two of the Lion's secretive nature. That's it...


It's been criticised not just in terms of execution, but relevant content as well - which would apply to a White Scars origin novel before it was even written.

Relevant flashbacks would be a nice touch (as they were in _Deliverance Lost_) but a complete origins novel for the V Legion would be pointless - especially considering as far as we know nothing of note occured on Chogoris that would have been relevant to the Heresy whatsoever. _Descent of Angels_ at least had the taint of Caliban and the exile of Luther as plot points which in some way tied it to future (and heretical) events, yet even then it still fell short of delivering.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Valid points. 
I just hope they get their own novel hopefully about the Chondax ambush or some joint campaign with the Space Wolves. I recall both legions were ambushed by the AL. Could someone provide the details. My memory is a bit glitchy. 

A pre-Great Crusade/Great Crusade WS novel would be a fan-service, but not much more. 

Yes, they'll be present at the siege of Terra, but they'll probably be relegated to supporting roles (if we're lucky). If we're unlucky, they'll barely be mentioned.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Both the Space Wolves and White Scars met to return to Terra when the Alpha Legion I think attacked, the White Scars were ordered to withdraw and left the Space Wolves to fight a rearguard action, but then help came from a mysterious source.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Id like a White Scars origin novel but make it not ofapart from the Horus Heresy series, like what they should of done with Descent of Angels, i like the idea of origin books but if they were to do it should be as a separate series of books, which could then lead into series focusing on crusade or something.

Though if we have to wait until the Seige of Terra before we see the White Scars i really do think its a tad lame. Still plenty of time for any of the future HH antholgies to do stuff on the White Scars


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Both the Space Wolves and White Scars met to return to Terra when the Alpha Legion I think attacked, the White Scars were ordered to withdraw and left the Space Wolves to fight a rearguard action, but then help came from a mysterious source.


Actually before the SW and WS could meet up the Wolves were ambushed and the Khan was ordered to leave them to their fate in order to get back to Terra in time.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Both the Space Wolves and White Scars met to return to Terra when the Alpha Legion I think attacked, the White Scars were ordered to withdraw and left the Space Wolves to fight a rearguard action, but then help came from a mysterious source.


Thanks. I also found the following passage in Index Astartes


_However, it is not thought that Alpharius was blindly following Horus, for he seemed to have his own agenda. He relished every battle against loyalist Space Marines as the ultimate test of military skill. Again and again the Alpha Legion proved they were the match of the other legions. They started going out of their way to find Space Marine opponents, and inflicted stinging defeats on the loyalist *White Scars* at Tallarn, a Space Wolves company at Yarant and other legions at dozens of smaller outposts._

Annoyingly, the other legions are apparently helpless against the almighty Alpha Legion's devious ways 


It would've been cool if they had released a separate "Origins/Great Crusade" series (dealing with the origins and early Great Crusade exploits of each primarch and his legion). Do you guys agree? 

I think BL should've started with an Origins/Great Crusade series and then moved on to the Horus Heresy series. Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels would fit perfectly into the former. Perhaps they could still do an Origins series (though it would've been better had they done it prior to releasing the HH series)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I wouldn't take the old IA articles as very accurate any more, not when so much as been changed altered in regards to the Alpha Legion already. Plus taking out outposts ain't exactly massive when a primarch bends their will towards doing it heh.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> t would've been cool if they had released a separate "Origins/Great Crusade" series (dealing with the origins and early Great Crusade exploits of each primarch and his legion). Do you guys agree?


No. That's an unnecessary solution

I think it'd have been better if people didn't complain about stories 'not fitting the series'. 

The events on Caliban, the events on Nurth, the pursuit of the Abyss are all relevant to the Heresy. They're just not 'much ballyhooed'. 

Why on Earth would a White Scars novel set almost wholly on Chogoris be _just fan-service_? Would it be bad because of that? Frankly, I find that line of thinking almost quintessentially idiotic. 

The fact that in _Hunt for Voldemort_ 

there's a daemon who used to run around on Chogoris, that alone 'opening' enough to conjecture a decent story set on Chogoris. 


Even then, if there's a detailed novel which demonstrates almost certainly why Jaghatai Khan would do what he does through the Heresy but set entirely on Chogoris? Hell, _let me at it_.

Only a couple of HH stories so far have been properly 'insignificant', indeed the only one I can think of off-hand is the Space Wolf short story in _Tales of Heresy_.

Everything else? Served a purpose. (Whether it did so well or not is another matter.*)

* I happen to think _Descent of Angels_ is 100% fine...in principle. It just is scuppered by not being a good book. But the fact that it's set on Caliban for the vast majority of it? Not a problem.

Edit: A more illustrative question is this - "Is anything gained by _excluding_ things from the Horus Heresy series?", e.g. books that are nearer to the HH than, say, they are to _Battle of the Fang_ [the next nearest chronological book, IIRC], but that don't actually take place in the time between Davin and the Emperor's enthronement? A Great Crusade and a Unification Wars series would either compete with the HH series, or being roughly the same thing, just 'elsewhere' by a hundred years or three.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Personally I have faith in Rob Saunders on giving Alpha Legion a good portrayal. People or too thick glued to Dan and that he is the only one who can pull it off.  After re-reading Fulgrim, Im a bit worried how Kyme will pull off Ferrus, but I will judge him afterwards, not before.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I wouldn't take the old IA articles as very accurate any more


They are still the primary (and sole in many cases) sources for much information we have on each Legion.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Xisor said:


> Why on Earth would a White Scars novel set almost wholly on Chogoris be _just fan-service_? Would it be bad because of that? Frankly, I find that line of thinking almost quintessentially idiotic.


It wouldn't add much to the Horus Heresy. It would have even less relevance to the Heresy story arc than Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels. 

It would mainly be a diversion (no doubt an entertaining one for WS fans).
In my experience, the people who call the opinions of others "idiotic" usually prove themselves to be the real idiots.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They are still the primary (and sole in many cases) sources for much information we have on each Legion.


I know and of course it can be referenced, but there's some doubt in whether they are true after so long and after so many changes in the HH series already. Not saying discard them.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I actually think that nearly every single primarch needs more page time, the lion may have had 2 books and a short story that he was in, but very little has been given that really shows his mindset. (I haven't read the clip from 'the lion' yet).

Who I really want to read more about is Curze, who has only popped up in a few shorts and a chapter or so in the NL books. Then purturabo, kharn, and a lot more horus.


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