# Miniwargaming is Closing



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Seems MWG is closing their store, the new embargo was the final straw.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Yeah, I got this email a while ago. Very sad.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Some very good points there and while I know some people have issues with Miniwargaming due to previous videos he has done, I would really urge these people to try and put that aside and watch it. He makes some great points about GW's online presence, their website and their direct orders business relationship with AD's.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I find a lot of the reason he reviewed for the policy changes as hilarious. I personally never used the GW site for orders and never will as the shipping costs to my area are retarded where I live. All this means as I have to wait at my local brick and mortar store for weeks at a time for their shipments to come in.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not affected by them going but the whole issue of privacy is an absolute joke.

GW isn't worried about customers getting tracker cookies from others webstores which could be bad, it because it means GW doesn't gain tracking info about their customers, this has nothing to do with privacy but marketing pure and simple.

GW needs to stop thinking that its 1990 and realise that we live in a global web based economy. The need to embrace Web 2.0 technology and actively engage with the community. If the community says a product sucks or its overpriced thats a valid lesson. Head office are in a bubble. GW had a forum on site, shut it, had a facebook page, shut it, not seen them on twitter later, either so wouldn't be surprised if that goes

At this rate GW will try to fight eBay for allowing second hand sales and Google for listing their website

Policy changes don't affect me but for god sake make an effort to back your arguments with fact, Bad form GW, bad form


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## The_Helghast (Mar 7, 2013)

GW has shot them selves in the foot, also i was wondering why GW models where so expensive (i live in NZ)...hence i do a lot of wheeling and dealing within NZ. i would rather buy nice new shinies from GW or my local GW supplier (of which i don't have one now, as you guessed it, prices where too high, and they closed.) if they charged us what you get charged in the US. Eg: Cadain battle force $210.00NZD compared to $120.00USD @1.216 conversion rate, thats $145.00NZD. oh man thats bull. i think i might go to the US just to get models.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I believe GW are doing this to boost their own sales over the next year or two so they can say to any potential buyer that they are doing great. I fully believe GW are trying to sell the company, which is why they are doing all these retarded things that might boost profits over a short period of time so as to entice a buyer.


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

An articulate and enlightening video. Kudos.

Man that letter was written by:

a) a suit
b) probably drives an Audi TT
c) does not game, paint or model
d) earns a crapolla more than me


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## darknightdrako (Mar 26, 2010)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I believe GW are doing this to boost their own sales over the next year or two so they can say to any potential buyer that they are doing great. I fully believe GW are trying to sell the company, which is why they are doing all these retarded things that might boost profits over a short period of time so as to entice a buyer.


One of the guys in the Podcasts I listen to (Jaded Gamer Cast) would agree with you. He even has the conspiracy of saying that GW plans to sell to Hasbro.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

The point made about other websites doing more to promote the game than GW themselves is absolutely true. GW website now may as well be a long ass shopping asile that's it. There is next to nothing on the site anymore really. Yet sites like Beasts of War, MWG, whatever site you use do more than GW to promote the hobby, podcasts, battle reports, analysis, discussions etc that doesn't account for the fact that there are at least 4 or 5 rather big 40k forums BaCS, Warseer, BolS, Dakka Dakka, Heresy, that doesn't include any of the others out there that I haven't listed. 

Regarding the theory GW trying to sell up, it makes sense if you take into account the speed they are releasing all these codexes which will bring a large chunk of money in for each army. But hasbro? Yuck.....


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah, the quick release schedule is most likely to have a huge boost in sales to show a good profit margin next year.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

If GW sells to another entity, is that a bad thing? Potentially.

If they sold to Hasbro, would that be bad? I, personally, don't think it would be. 40K might become cheaper to play. 

But, I doubt any of it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Miniwargaming has been a useful site but if you go on Youtube and search "miniwargaming is closing" you'll get a few hits that indicate this is not a new thing. The desperation of their advertising has been going on for awhile

The guys built their company on the basis of undercutting GW's prices and as GW have said they have made the move to provide better security for bricks and mortar shops and I for one support that.

I'd also point out that MWG has started their own line of miniatures and a game so it's not surprising that GW are not keen on supporting that venture indirectly. As this new game, financed by a kickstarter, is only available via the MWG website I wonder where all the dough has or will go?

The GW changes are discretionary they can choose to enforce them or not. I really feel MWG has simply given up without even asking the question because their business was a dying marginal prospect to being with ...... again.

As the chap suggests many other online businesses exist in the US under the same regime.

There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that GW is "up for sale" it's a publicly listed company so it can't actually be "sold" as such. Someone can sell a major share holding for sure but that's not selling GW.

The majority shareholder is a Cayman Island company (surprise, surprise) who holds 18%
http://investor.games-workshop.com/...crosoft-Word-Sleep-Zakaria-Notification-8.pdf


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The majority shareholder is a Cayman Island company (surprise, surprise) who holds 18%
> http://investor.games-workshop.com/...crosoft-Word-Sleep-Zakaria-Notification-8.pdf


I asked you to not bring up my Cayman Islands accounts.

I'm curious to see how this plays out over time for GW. Personally, I wish Dark Potential was available locally for me as I would like to try it.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Shit, if GW sell out to a mainstream games manufacturer the hobby is screwed. The charm and uniqueness will be lost for sure


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

TheReverend said:


> Shit, if GW sell out to a mainstream games manufacturer the hobby is screwed. The charm and uniqueness will be lost for sure


I don't think that would be a guaranteed thing, were that the case. But, anything is possible.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

I am unconvinced about GW being sold off, 
bearing in mind there have been rumours about this in 2008, 2005, 1999 and 1993, 
I do however believe they are up to something


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Bindi Baji said:


> I am unconvinced about GW being sold off,
> bearing in mind there have been rumours about this in 2008, 2005, 1999 and 1993,
> I do however believe they are up to something


But "what" that something is, should be interesting (hopefully) when we find out.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> But "what" that something is, should be interesting (hopefully) when we find out.


Perhaps they're saving up to buy nuclear weapons and commit exterminus against Australia.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Perhaps they're saving up to buy nuclear weapons and commit exterminus against Australia.


damn, it all adds up now.................


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Perhaps they're saving up to buy nuclear weapons and commit exterminus against Australia.


We've already had plenty of UK Nukes explode on Australia thanks.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

So, with MWG closing the store and web store, how will they sell any Dark Potential? Phone Orders?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

You don't need to worry about "selling off" of GW until Tom Kirby either decides to retire and buy an island somewhere, or dies.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Hopefully the latter. In a fire. caused by a rabid badger attack.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> We've already had plenty of UK Nukes explode on Australia thanks.


Really? I didn't know Jeremy Clarkson, James Mays, and Richard Hammond had filmed Top Gear episodes in Australia.


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

Like Magpie said you cannot just sell a publicly traded company. Looking at their stock history they are on the up and up, with small spikes when they release a new codex. It seems to me that the rapid codex releases are being done to get a lot of profit fast, not to show it to potential buyers. It is possible someone new bought the majority and is making changes around the shop to maximize their investment. That is what investors do.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Perhaps they're saving up to buy nuclear weapons and commit exterminus against Australia.


From a few years ago:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Back on topis, as interesting as the video is, it shows a real lack of knowledge when it comes to BI methods and multi national business practises.

Im pretty certain that a company the size of GW does actually use BI tools to study the sales trends. They will know with some certainty if the US online sales embargo has actually affected number of sales. Only they will be in a postion to say if it is a positive thing.

The other thing he mentions is the exchange rate. I think that it is more complex than he makes out. If GW could sell at a uniform price across the world, Im sure they would, as it would be so much easier for them. Different countries have different taxes and also different related costs. My understanding is it is muchmore expensive to run a B&M shop in Australia than it is in say the North of England. You therefore need to sell at a higher price to cover costs.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Really? I didn't know Jeremy Clarkson, James Mays, and Richard Hammond had filmed Top Gear episodes in Australia.


Yes, several in fact and we've even had our own Top Gear series too.



humakt said:


> My understanding is it is muchmore expensive to run a B&M shop in Australia than it is in say the North of England. You therefore need to sell at a higher price to cover costs.


:goodpost:

Everything costs more from your staff to the fact that the distance from supplier (Sydney) to shop can be as far as from Nottingham to Cairo.

But at the end of it all we pay the price we do in Oz because that's the price we are willing to pay. Of all the guys in my local shop there are only 2 of us who buy stuff from OS, all others are happy to pay the shop price.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Everything costs more from your staff to the fact that the distance from supplier (Sydney) to shop can be as far as from Nottingham to Cairo.
> 
> But at the end of it all we pay the price we do in Oz because that's the price we are willing to pay. Of all the guys in my local shop there are only 2 of us who buy stuff from OS, all others are happy to pay the shop price.


I think there are only that many left in my group who'll pay GW Aus prices  Different strokes for different folks.

Orders from overseas, Forgeworld stuff, second hand and just buying into other games has become the norm. 2 Years ago, GW games were basically the only thing played for us, with just a smattering of other games, now there are several other games played, and GW is in the minority. 

But I will give you that the reason prices are so high is because there are people who will pay it. The other reasons given are bunk, (costs of everything else are not 200% higher in Australia) GW will just charge what they can get away with, as is there prerogative. 

At any rate, enough time and energy has been spent arguing Australian policy before, we should probably get back to discussing American policy.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Has anyone else been getting all the "great free offers" from MWG?

Apparently the team will be still making their painting videos.

Forgive my cynicism that says they earn a fair few dollars from people forgetting to de-register after the 7 day free trial which is why we see so many free offers from them.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Forgive my cynicism that says they earn a fair few dollars from people forgetting to de-register after the 7 day free trial which is why we see so many free offers from them.


Yeah, because everything they make is complete garbage and not worth paying for. If I want batreps I can get the for free on youtube, if I want painting guides I can get those as well! It doesn't matter if MWGs videos are of a MUCH better standard! I DEMAND TO GET IT ALL FOR FREE!!!!


I'm a silver lifetime member, paid $80 CAD when they had that offer a some years back. It's been worth it, I get all their DVDs for free and I find about 80% of the videos they put out to be worth watching. They put out too much stuff sometimes, inbetween watching their vids and listening to podcasts I sometimes have no time left to play games or do "work".

I take it you dont understand the idea behind their "free" offers, it's no different than anyone with the slogan "We guarantee 100% satisfaction or your money back!". Difference is the MWG slogan is "Here, take the stuff we have spent many hours making, just take it for free. While you're at it look at all the other stuff we have available as well for free. If you like what you see then you can continue with the subscription, if you dont you can cancel within 7 days and not be billed or you can cancel within 30 days and get a full refund!".

The only reason they can afford to produce videos is because of the subscribers, people like me who got Gold or Silver to help jumpstart the vault are now just freeloaders as GW would put it. We helped start the vault but now demand everything for free, without the subscribers there would be no vault which would be a great shame as the stuff they put out is of very good quality (Ok, it depends allot on what you are looking for. I can't stand the Banter Batreps but I love the style they have with showing the dice getting rolled etc).

I dont know of anyone who puts out the same type of videos as MWG does now, at least when it comes to the batreps. Blue Table Painting did a few where they showed the dicerolls etc but a single battle ended up being 2-4hours to watch.
Everyone else like the BOLS battlereps and a few other random people pretty much only have turn based synopsis's. I moved here, I shot this, that thing died etc.

With MWG videos you get a greater feel for the game, it's like you are there watching it but at a much faster pace. You get to see the dicerolls, the epic fails and incredible strokes of luck.

For the amount of videos they put out I think the price would be worth it, then again 80% of their stuff is free. They put up most of their videos on youtube 30 days after it has been put on the vault. So if you dont want to pay you can just watch it on youtube. Oh you want their DVDs for free? Then sign up, download them, then cancel the subscription... 

It's not different than the free to play model, you get most of their stuff for free. If you want some of the extra stuff they put out then you have to pay, then again it has been possible to get every single DVD they've ever made for free by signing up and cancelling the subscription.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Nice rant but you'll note I never at any point made any sort of comment on MWG's videos or their quality or value for money.

I have downloaded several and they are fair enough. I do however find that they really don't contain any more useful information than any of the many of You Tube which you point out are for free.

Their batreps are awful but I have to admit I find most pretty awful.

It just strikes me a very odd that many are saying that GW has destroyed MWG when really it comes down to a failure of MWG's ability to make their service into a viable business.

Many other online retailers still sell GW mini's and this latest change by GW isn't going to effect that. 

MWG has a loyal band of followers and it seem that will continue. All they have done is made a decision to close their online shop when I don't see there is any real need to do so due to the change by GW and it concerns me that it was the only outlet for Dark Potential. 

In short what's all the fuss about ?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I just want to point out that Miniwargaming is just being hit by something that the US was hit by about 10 years ago. The stores here either adapted or went under just the same. It's just Canada's turn to feel the same now.

Honestly with it happening in the US in the early 2000's, and it happening in Europe a couple years ago it's just rather silly for them to act like they couldn't see this coming. Eventually it'll be this way in every place that can sell GW minis and we'll have to adapt or fail in response to it.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

From the talk Matt had on his show some day ago it basically comes down to location.
The town where the MWG store is located only has 50.000 people. To just run a physical store there wasn't a viable option as I think 70% of their online revenue was from GW sales.

They didn't have that many sales to begin with as Matt doesn't believe in discounts, but they were forced to have a 10% discount because of all the other discount webstores out there. He also explained that prices in Canada are between 30-50% higher than those in the US, so competing with US online stores was very hard.
I also remember him saying once that some online stores were selling their product for cheaper than they get to buy them from their supplier.

So the reason for MWG shutting down were many but it boils down to running a physical store as not being financially viable. Only reason they had one was because GWs trade terms demand it, the online sales were the majority of their income and even that was not enough to keep the store afloat. With GW cutting off that keeping the store was no longer viable.

This is where the vault comes in, I think he said they had about 2000 members and make about 5000$ a month from subscriptions. This is a very low income, which is another reason they are having their big DVD give aways as every time someone signs up to the vault some decide to stay (or simply forget and dont care because 7$ a month is nothing and what you get for it is allot). Matt said they need about 2000 more members for the vault to be really viable.

With the store closing they can now focus on other games, as they dont need to focus on making videos for games dont sell any more. This is why they have the big games suggestion going right now, to see what other games they should cover.

I'd love to see Dark Heresy being played if possible, only heard about 5 podcasts about it and it seems pretty fun.

To keep the vault going they need more subscribers and they need to cover more games, problem I see is if they dilute it too much people will unsubscribe because they dont get enough of XYZ.

Getting sponsors like BOW might be a good idea as well. Wouldn't surprise me if they introduce a "watch this 30 sec commercial" type thing as youtube has. If you subscribe you get no commercials.

Then again I use Addblock so I very rarely see any adds at all.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So really what it comes down to is the fact the MWG never actually had a viable business. They produce videos but can't sell enough and they sell mini's but can't compete with other online shops.

So absolutely nothing that GW has done has "forced" these guys to close they have made the decision not to carry GW products all on their own and for some reason decided to make a half hour video lecturing GW about it. 

If anything GW has maybe made a B&M store for MWG more viable by removing the online competition if the general "online doomsday panic" at the moment is to be believed, which it isn't.

MWG could quite happily continue to carry GW product if they wished, many dealers in the states do so by simply having a different online ordering set up, really easy to do. 

About the only big outcome from the latest changes by GW will be the Geo-blocking or halting of export sales which may have an impact on buyers in Oz but as far as MWG is concerned it would be a boon as the Canadian prices are higher so it would remove the US competition.

Like Zed says, you can either adapt or walk away. MWG has chosen the latter.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So really what it comes down to is the fact the MWG never actually had a viable business. They produce videos but can't sell enough and they sell mini's but can't compete with other online shops.


Ehh, no, that's a lot of hubris on your part. They had a viable business, they ran it for many years, they're removing it now as it won't be profitable for them with GW's changes. Saying they didn't have a 'viable business' because they couldn't be profitable (or at least couldn't make a profit worth their time and effort) after GWs changes, or as a B&M only store is stupid.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

maddermax said:


> Ehh, no, that's a lot of hubris on your part. They had a viable business, they ran it for many years, they're removing it now as it won't be profitable for them with GW's changes. Saying they didn't have a 'viable business' because they couldn't be profitable (or at least couldn't make a profit worth their time and effort) after GWs changes, or as a B&M only store is stupid.


and I quote "we have analysed out numbers, over the *PAST FEW YEARS* of doing this business and unfortunately the the margins have just been too small and the investment too large"

= not viable over the past few years.

Matt's words not mine.


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