# A few BA questions



## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong section.

I haven't too much under my belt in way of battles. Mostly I fight guard, marines and orks. I've actually yet to play a game in 6th ed, so if I get some stuff wrong please correct me.

First question:
Assault marines vs death company. Which is the better choice and why? I know a lot of BA lists include death company, but at the same time I know it's not for everyone. Is an extra attack and weapon skill worth having a squad of angry guys chasing after a speeder crying "HORUUSSS!!!" ?

Second question: 
BA vs Orks in CQC (Close quarters Combat). I'm sure most agree that getting charged by orks isn't much fun, but Blood Angels are supposed to be Space Marine CQC masters does counter-charging (charging them before they charge you) have more merit than trying to gun them down? I ask specifically in terms of assault, tacs and sanguinary guard (debatably honour guard.)

Third question:
is a CQC honour guard worth the points? For fluff reasons, I like to deck out my honour guard with a chapter banner, two storm shields and a blood champion, each member with a power weapon and (if I can spare the points) a plasma pistol Worth it?

Fourth question:
What non-librarian unit is the best counter for A) A wolf Lord with two swords and Saga of the wolf born and B) Logan Grimnar?

Fifth question:
What's the best way to avoid vanquisher cannons and earth shakers raining down on your HQ? (especially in 6th ed, since jump packs can only be used 1ce per turn)

Thanks in advance. I'd appreciate non-troll answers.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

1) It depends. RAS are scoring which is nice, and they have cheaper JPs (DC w/ packs are way overpriced). DCs are good because they 1. can take bolters 2. have FnP/FC 3. have rage (yes those needed to be separated) 4. +1 WS 5. +1 attack. Take them to kill stuff, as an elites choice thats actually a troops.

2) If you flame them first you can take out any mob of boyz with 10 RAS + a priest. Tacs, dont assault just shoot. You can kill more than enough, then they have to weather an overwatch afterwords. Guard, dont attack them unless its small numbers... Assaults, flame then assault. You should do fine, orks die easily.

3) Im not sure what CQC is... but no, I would say its not unless you have a lot of free points. A lot.

4) I dont know SW at all... sorry. Ill try though. A. no invuln base so just ML etc... not sure what that saga is. B. Any anti-TEQ unit as far as I can tell.

5) Well, they scatter alot (i think) and just saying the JPs could only be used once before - there was only 1 option. I guess... just... spread out? I dunno... never faced them.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

1. Assault marines AND death company. Use the units of assault marines to jump in on objectives/deep strike meltas on armour and the DC with a reclusiarch coming out of an assault vehicle (preferably a storm raven) to kill the centre of you opponent's army. Alternately, assault marines and assault terminators.

Everything else I agree with JAMOB about. I face an absolutely stupid number of blast templates when I face my buddy's guard army and you just gotta abuse unit coherency. I mean abuse it with a ruler in your hand. If it's a barrage weapon, cross your fingers. If it's got LoS, you messed up. I keep my HQ (a reclusiarch) and his unit (DC or assault termies) in a storm raven and my buddy sighs pretty heavily when it comes in. Armoured fliers = protection for at least a couple turns. The way I see it is that even if it gets blown up when it comes in the guys have almost as good a chance at foot slogging across the board. It's very gratifying to charge out of a SR that went halfway across a 6' table the previous turn.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Rage no longer makes the unit "chase after landspeeders", infact it has no draw backs any more in 6th edition.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Except for that pesky "I don't have hands big enough to roll all these attack dice!" problem...

2. it is ALWAYS better to Assault Orks than get assulted by them. They have way too many bonuses when charging and BAs would lose their benefits of charging.

3. Yes. They come with a Sang Priest so they make a pretty tough CC unit.

4. Devastator squad with Plasmas or Lascannons.

5. um...kill it?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Okysho said:


> First question:
> Assault marines vs death company. Which is the better choice and why? I know a lot of BA lists include death company, but at the same time I know it's not for everyone. Is an extra attack and weapon skill worth having a squad of angry guys chasing after a speeder crying "HORUUSSS!!!" ?


Death Company (DC) are expensive, and don't score. With 5/6 of all missions being based on objectives, this is important. I would start taking DC only after I already had a minimum of three scoring units. In general, Blood Angels default troops unit is 10x Assault Marines with 2x Meltaguns with Sergeant with Powerfist (or in 6th Ed, possibly Lightning Claw and Meltabombs). I never leave home without a mimimum of 30 Assault Marines in every army over 1000pts, and it seems to work pretty well.

As has been mentioned, Rage now simply grants another additional attack on the charge instead of making you chase things. However my personal opinion is that simply took DC from "unplayable" to "mediocre".



Okysho said:


> Second question:
> BA vs Orks in CQC (Close quarters Combat). I'm sure most agree that getting charged by orks isn't much fun, but Blood Angels are supposed to be Space Marine CQC masters does counter-charging (charging them before they charge you) have more merit than trying to gun them down? I ask specifically in terms of assault, tacs and sanguinary guard (debatably honour guard.)


Always charge Orks if you can. With any unit. You are always better off, even with Tacticals. Getting +1 attack and denying Furious Charge to them and probably benefiting from FC yourself (you took Priests, right?) is better than any amount of bolter fire in terms of the casualties you receive. It also means you have more control over where the combat takes place.



Okysho said:


> Third question:
> is a CQC honour guard worth the points? For fluff reasons, I like to deck out my honour guard with a chapter banner, two storm shields and a blood champion, each member with a power weapon and (if I can spare the points) a plasma pistol Worth it?


Who are they accompanying? A Libby with Prescience/Unleash Rage I hope! You can take a unit like this, but plasma pistols are a complete waste of points. I would do the banner/champ/shields and then come back to the unit at the end of your list writing and see if you have any spare points to give additional power weapons. 8 S5 Power Weapon Attacks plus 4 S5 attacks per man from the rest of the squad should kill most things you're assaulting. However, unless you give them jump packs, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators do the same job, better, for less points.



Okysho said:


> Fourth question:
> What non-librarian unit is the best counter for A) A wolf Lord with two swords and Saga of the wolf born and B) Logan Grimnar?


Mephiston. Or a Furioso Dreadnought. Or TH/SS Terminators. Or shoot them a lot.



Okysho said:


> Fifth question:
> What's the best way to avoid vanquisher cannons and earth shakers raining down on your HQ? (especially in 6th ed, since jump packs can only be used 1ce per turn)


I assume you mean Vindicator/Demolisher cannons, since the Vanquisher doesn't have a blast template? It depends what you've got in your army list! I am normally Deep Striking a minimum of 6 Meltaguns up to a maximum of about 12 on turn 2. That means that all I have to do is survive turn 1 with whatever I have on the table, so I pop smoke, hide in area terrain and spread out. Turn 2 and down comes 30-40 ASM to smoke "problem units" like Manticores, Earthshakers and Demolishers. On the other hand, if you're not running a lot of ASM, or don't want to Deep Strike near their artillery, you'll probably have Devs with Missile Launchers/Lascannons, Multimelta Attack Bikes, or other answers of your own to shoot back with. Just pick your targets well and start shooting.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Wow! Thanks for all the responses.

My biggest concerns were the questions 1,3 and 4. 
I've been playing Bood Angels for about a year, however I don't have any actual assault marines at the moment and I'm ordering 2 death company boxes. I wasn't 100% sure whether I should leave them as death company or turn them into assault marines (didn't but an ASM box because death company has more special weapons, plus blood angels unique styled stuff) I think I'll make them assault marines. Thanks for clearing that up. Looks like I'll have to get more though soon...

My girlfriend started to play orks and wiped the floor with me in my first game because I got cocky. Since Space Marines are supposed to be good at both shooting and close combat, I had to ask which is better. I also recently re-discovered that tactical marines carry bolt pistols as side arms, which is why I asked if it was ok to charge with tacs. Good to know that charging greenskins does the job. Thanks!

My honour guard has always been a little odd for me. Like I said, I love my fluff and I like the concept of an "elite" team of honour guard. In response to Sethis, they'll probably accompany my chapter master who is counting as "Dante" (until I get some hombrew feedback on my special characters http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117720) I designed them to be mob and Independent character/HQ killers and I gave them storm shields because of the circumstances which correlate to question 5. (I play mostly against guard and my HQs take all the fire) Although in 6th ed, 3+ survivability has gone down in a few cases, so I'm still ok with taking storm shields. I don't normally field this unit (or my chapter master for that matter) for anything less than 1500pts (especially since they're about 300 for the HG) Good to know they're worth taking though, despite the cost. (it's a 50/50 split between yes and no actually, but I can afford it in the bigger games that I field them)


The very first game I played with my SW friend after I got back into warhammer 3 years ago, we played an annihilation match. We shot each other silly until I had 1 full 10-man tactical squad left and all he had was his wolf lord with that stupid saga. Have you ever seen an HQ deflect 16 bolt rounds in one shooting phase with the sturdier part of his nose? Which is why I asked this question. Good to know again, that it's doable. Just gotta play the cards right. Thanks for responding to this one too.

Running between cover, dodging huge blast templates is what I used to do in 5th in when jump infantry could move 12" (now you've got to pick and be careful) I never thought of the unit coherency idea. I'll definitely have to try that. The reason why I used to get clobbered by all the tanks and artillery (my friend also has a leman russ with ALL weapons as plasma cannons i.e. executioner cannon, hull mounted plasma cannon and 2 side sponson p cannons) because I would dig in and try to weather it (Master of ordinance is also hard to get around when you lost half your tactical squad on turn 1 due to free, unlimited orbital bombardment.) So a "Behind enemy lines" tactic is what is suggested? That's going to be what I try next.

Thanks everyone for reading and responding to my wall-o-text


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Okysho said:


> However I don't have any actual assault marines at the moment and I'm ordering 2 death company boxes.


So... don't take this the wrong way - I'm genuinely curious - why are you using Blood Angels? Most people use the book specifically because they want ASM instead of Tac squads.



Okysho said:


> I also recently re-discovered that tactical marines carry bolt pistols as side arms, which is why I asked if it was ok to charge with tacs. Good to know that charging greenskins does the job. Thanks!


Well, pistols and then charge is a better option than rapid fire then get charged, but you still don't want to be in melee with a big unit of boyz at all if you can help it. A Nob has the upper hand over a Sarge and with Fearless vs ATSKNF it'll turn into a pillow fight for the rest of the game.



Okysho said:


> My honour guard has always been a little odd for me. Like I said, I love my fluff and I like the concept of an "elite" team of honour guard. In response to Sethis, they'll probably accompany my chapter master who is counting as "Dante"... I designed them to be mob and Independent character/HQ killers and I gave them storm shields because of the circumstances which correlate to question 5.


Have you considered using Sanguinary Guard instead? With Dante they score and never scatter.



Okysho said:


> Have you ever seen an HQ deflect 16 bolt rounds in one shooting phase with the sturdier part of his nose? Which is why I asked this question. Good to know again, that it's doable. Just gotta play the cards right. Thanks for responding to this one too.


It's all about the right tool for the job. 



Okysho said:


> Running between cover, dodging huge blast templates is what I used to do in 5th in when jump infantry could move 12" (now you've got to pick and be careful) I never thought of the unit coherency idea. I'll definitely have to try that. The reason why I used to get clobbered by all the tanks and artillery (my friend also has a leman russ with ALL weapons as plasma cannons i.e. executioner cannon, hull mounted plasma cannon and 2 side sponson p cannons) because I would dig in and try to weather it (Master of ordinance is also hard to get around when you lost half your tactical squad on turn 1 due to free, unlimited orbital bombardment.) So a "Behind enemy lines" tactic is what is suggested? That's going to be what I try next.


Actually what it sounds like you need is Rhinos! 35pts and you're safe for at least a turn from that S7 blast spitting death machine. Even if it gets wrecked you can still disembark behind it. Having a threat to send at tanks like that to take the heat off your troops might not be a bad idea either. Turbo boosting melta bikes/attack bikes always go down well.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

addressing 1 point at a time..


I actually switched over from vanilla marines, so all I have are tactical marines. When I say I've been playing BA for about a year, I've only played 4 matches in the last 10-11 months (Not many 40k players out this way...)

I know that using assault marines against orks or just picked them off with heavies is better. That was more of a situational question, if it is a viable option if I can't thwart a mob via another method.

I have and I do change between the two. Sanguinary guard does nicely in smaller games, however in a bigger game I can afford to take both so I wanted to make sure my loadout was good for a "command squad" sort of deal.

Rhinos? RHIIINNNOOOOOSS!?!?! Actually I've been wanting to do that one for a while, monetary implications deny me my MEHTUL BAWKSES at this current moment in time.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Generally Sang Guard is better off in larger games actually 1.5k+, since Dante with a well loaded out squad is probably going to set you back around 500 points.

The best BA lists I've seen, seem to run with a stategic theme, such as a all jump infantry attacking the opponent swiftly, fast mech which can outflank (baal preds) and outmaneuver etc... Making a "balanced" mech and infantry list with tac marines seems better suited towards Vanilla Marines than BA. 

With Death Company your primary concern should be how are you going to get them to your opponent? Sure, Feel No Pain can keep them alive longer than most squads but on foot they are just expensive t4 3+sv targets that drop quickly. IMO putting them in a Rhino in 6th edition isn't a good idea since you will lose an entire turn getting out of said Rhino before you can attack. If you are going DC you may want to consider putting them in jump packs, a StormRaven or a Landraider, but that goes back to the point above about the overall theme and plan of attack to your list.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Unfortunately due to the new reserves rules "pure" DoA armies are dead as a concept - all BA players are having to hybridise in one way or another.

The fundamental change though is "Transports without an Assault Ramp are useless for assault troops". If it's not a Land Raider or Storm Raven, you need Jump Packs. That's non-negotiable when it comes to melee units.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Ah yeah Sethis, good point, forgot about that new rule. How is nipplewing supposed to work now?

Thought for a while that a very good force could be outflanking or blitzing Baal predators backed by a Landraider full of DC.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Okysho said:


> First question:
> Assault marines vs death company. Which is the better choice and why? I know a lot of BA lists include death company, but at the same time I know it's not for everyone. Is an extra attack and weapon skill worth having a squad of angry guys chasing after a speeder crying "HORUUSSS!!!" ?


For what? Shock assault, most certainly Death Company. Holding objectives? Well, that'd be assault marines. I'd say 2 squads of Assault Marines are the stock in trade for BA, but only because I only see the point of BA Jumpers or close-range Mech (otherwise, why bother playing BA? Well, that's my view anyhow). Add Death Company after that if you have points to splash and you need a strong threat in the army.



Okysho said:


> Second question:
> BA vs Orks in CQC (Close quarters Combat). I'm sure most agree that getting charged by orks isn't much fun, but Blood Angels are supposed to be Space Marine CQC masters does counter-charging (charging them before they charge you) have more merit than trying to gun them down? I ask specifically in terms of assault, tacs and sanguinary guard (debatably honour guard.)


Always charge. If you charge, you deny them not only +1 attack, but also +1 strength. Grenades, Bolt Pistols, and then charge. Always. If you sit and shoot you won't kill nearly enough to stop them hurting you. A lot. Also, in combat you deny them their save, which you can't really do without templates at range (I am of course referring to the Kustom Force Field).



Okysho said:


> Third question:
> is a CQC honour guard worth the points? For fluff reasons, I like to deck out my honour guard with a chapter banner, two storm shields and a blood champion, each member with a power weapon and (if I can spare the points) a plasma pistol Worth it?


Not worth the huge points expenditure. Take Sanguinary Guard with banner instead if you really like the idea.



Okysho said:


> Fourth question:
> What non-librarian unit is the best counter for A) A wolf Lord with two swords and Saga of the wolf born and B) Logan Grimnar?


Stormraven with Multi-Melta and Lascannons. Outside of that, anything that puts out a large number of decent initiative attacks. 10 Death Company, for example, with a Thunder Hammer or two hidden in the unit to try a sneaky ID.



Okysho said:


> Fifth question:
> What's the best way to avoid vanquisher cannons and earth shakers raining down on your HQ? (especially in 6th ed, since jump packs can only be used 1ce per turn)


Vanquisher Cannons can be ignored, they only hit half the time anyway and anybody taking one isn't taking an Executioner or LRBT. Barrage weapons, on the other hand, are probably best dealt with by small squads of ASM deep-striking with Meltaguns (or a fast-moving unit with Melta - a Stormraven will do just as well if you can spare it's firepower for the turn).

Midnight


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Sethis said:


> Actually what it sounds like you need is Rhinos! 35pts and you're safe for at least .....


50 points for BA 'cause they're fast


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Sorry, I always figure in the ASM discount because I don't use Tacs, ever. Mind you, I'm never taking ASM in trasnports in this edition either...


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