# What does it take to beat Tyranids with SM?



## zenfarr (Nov 25, 2007)

I was just wondering what my SM army consist of, if I want to beat my friend's Tyranid army. Here's what my army is so far, just tell me what should be put in:
. HQ
SM Commander w/ Stormbolter, and powersword
SM Terminator Chaplain

. ELITE
SM Dreadnought w/ twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher
GK Terminators

. Troops
SM Tactical Squad x2

. Fast Attack
SM Assault Squad x2

Rhino


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## The Red Thirst (Dec 11, 2007)

The only tip I can give is stay out of combat. for the fast attack, get a few landspeeders so you can shoot and the 'nids and then shy away when they get to close.


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## Tiberius (Dec 15, 2007)

From my experience, there are 3 things that send a chill into Nids. 
Hvy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and Lighting Claws.


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## A Soporific (Nov 30, 2007)

Can you put down pie plates?

I put down pie plates.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Hrm, seems to me that this would do better in the Army Lists section. Ah well.

As for what to take against Tyranids, it really depends on a few factors.

a) What is your friend taking in his lists? Even if you're not completely sure any information that you can give us in this regard can potentially be extremely helpful.

b) What kind of army are you playing? We know that you play Space Marines, but are you using Traits? Do you use an alternate Codex like Black Templars or Space Wolves? Does your army (and model collection) focus on one particular aspect of the game (moving, shooting, assaulting)?

c) What models you have available or are willing to pick up.

If you can answer even some of these questions I'm sure we can help you a lot better than we would otherwise.

That being said, as a general rule you want to stay out of close combat with Tyranids unless it's happening on your terms (i.e. you're assaulting a unit that is far from support or that you can take out in a single go). Maintaining the ability to move is also important, as many Tyranids are extremely fast and can be on top of you as early as the first turn if you deploy badly or are extremely unlucky. You'll also need a good amount of firepower. Razorbacks are probably your best friends when it comes to dealing with Tyranids as it allows you to both keep your units mobile _and_ pump out a decent amount of fire (especially with the twin-linked heavy bolter option).

Weapons with a high rate of fire like heavy bolters, assault cannons and even autocannons are extremely useful against Tyranids as the small and medium creatures will suffer greatly when forced to endure fire from these weapons. However, it would be extremely unwise to load up entirely on heavy bolters. Monstrous Creatures are extremely resilient to small arms fire, so you'll want at least a few missile launchers (if not lascannons) to ensure that you can bring down any big nasties with a minimum of effort.

Therefore, we can sum up the general tactics when playing Tyranids.

a) Remain mobile.

b) Be sure to have the right weapons for the job (i.e. heavy bolters or Whirlwinds for the small creatures, heavier weapons for the larger ones).

c) Avoid close combat unless you have a considerable advantage.

Hope that helps a bit,

Katie D


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## Veritek83 (Dec 20, 2007)

Personally, I've never found Assault squads to be that effective vs. 'Nids. If you kit them out with flamers, you may be able to seriously thin out a swarm and then get the charge on them, but I gotta second the Red Thirst: You don't want to get caught in cc with them. Even if you massacre one swarm, you'll probably end up getting pulled under by the ones behind it. The killed:lost ratio is almost always going to favor the Hive Mind. If you really want to use the jumpers, I'd use them for hit and run attacks with flamers, only assaulting lone units after frying a good portion of them. Use both squads in tandem and you may be able to neutralize entire squads that get separated from the main body. 

My own sucesses against the 'Nids have come using large numbers of Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Whirlwinds against the swarm at range, while using Lascannons and MLs against the 'Zillas. Consider investing in a 10 man 4x HB dev squad, some Tornadoes, or a Pred. Destructor(HB sponsons). I really like the pred in this role as you can drop back 6" and still get 8 shots. If you can get ahold of and field a Leman Russ Exterminator _do so_. Especially if you can do it with Space Wolves driving. 

Finally, what are you putting in your Tac. squads? On the GKs?


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## Veritek83 (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, I guess I should post more quickly, otherwise I look unoriginal. :fool:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Veritek83 said:


> Well, I guess I should post more quickly, otherwise I look unoriginal. :fool:


*chuckles* Don't worry, you made some points of your own. For example, I never thought of how poorly Assault Squads could perform against Tyranids.

Thanks for the food for thought. :victory: I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.


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## Terminator (Nov 17, 2007)

I have an assault squad in my SM tourney list and I didn't find it to be all that bad. If they are loaded out with plasma/powerfist you could chase down an MC or with flamers charge into hormagaunts or whatever. 

The important thing in a tourney list is to include some anti-horde things like bolters, HB, flamers, etc.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

to beat nidzilla this list
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3221&highlight=anti+nidzilla
It works a real treat

anti swarm lots of templates heavy bolters, no plasma cannons too exspensive.


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## squadiee (Nov 4, 2007)

Assault marines were one of the few things that worked for me last time. I'd also avoid taking 6 man squads if he is fielding alot of models, I'd go for 8 with HB and flamers. Another thing I found worked well was a Predator Destructor, ac high enough strength to damage tough creatures, HBs good for mowing down the little uns. THose and Landspeeders. I keep 2 speeders, one with AC/HB and the other MM/HF. Both work REALLY well


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It may sound insane, but fighting Tyranids in close combat can actually work quite well. The trick is to charge them, rather than get charged. The little ones tend not to have high-strength attacks unless they've been seriously beefed up, and then they tend to cost as much as Space Marines without half the protection themselves. A turn of shooting to soften up the smaller bugs followed by charging in in the subsequent turn usually works pretty well, just to be safe. Dealing with the big Tyranids takes a slightly different approach. I tend to just feed Space Marines into the meat grinder and let the sergeants' power fists handle things. Occasionally, a chainsword will bring a Carnifex down, since they're quite slow. 

The general practice seems to be using a Whirlwind(s) to slow down the swarms, but I've always thought that if you were going to use a template weapon like that, you might as well use something that can stand up to some retaliation. While a Vindicator is about twice as expensive points-wise as a Whirlwind, its superior armor keeps it safe from quite a few things the Tyranids are likely to hit it with. And, just to top that, you're a hell of a lot more likely to wound a big tyranid with a demolisher shell than a whirlwind missile.


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## Veritek83 (Dec 20, 2007)

I certainly will agree that Marines match up well in individual assault situations vs. Tyranids, but I think that on the whole, you shouldn't rely on CC to win the day. In my experience, (of course YMMV) Tyranids are tough to deal with one squad at a time. Far too often the squad you used to charge will wipe out whatever you hit and then get charged next turn by the full weight of the swarm. For me the conditions conducive to a charge against Tyranids break down something like the following:

1. You're charging.
2. You're hitting a unit that you're reasonably sure you can handle with minimal casualties(I don't voluntarily get into CC with 'Stealers).
3. The unit you're charging is far enough away from the main body of the Tyranid army that you won't get hit with a charge next turn. 
4. Exception to #3- Sacrificial Lamb vs. Big Nasty . If by charging a small squad w/ Vet. Sarge PF into the main body you can knock out the Tyrant or Fex, go for it. Also, if it will buy you time to redeploy your shooty stuff. Be ready to lose that sqaud though. 

Generally, against a quality Tyranid player, they'll try to give you as few of those opportunities as possible. Take them when you can, but I try not to rely on them. Finally, a _caveat_: I'm the sort of player who always prefers to shoot. I may simply be way too risk averse.


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## DeusMortemEst (Dec 14, 2007)

Use lots of flamers and heavy bolters.

And also, it's important that you keep your units close to each other, as you most porbably are massively outnumbered. It's while your your marines are strong as hell, they can be in massive trouble if they drown in the 'nid tide.

And stay mobilbe too. Include some razorbacks.


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## NFL jaguars (Dec 29, 2007)

Multiple shot weapons and some nice ap2. I would not reccomend Missiles launchers as 99% of nid players buy extended carapce for tyrants and fexes, go lascannon. I would reccomend getting a force weapon librarian in there, great against fexes. I would drop the assualt marines and the rhino. Get heavy bolter and lascannon devastators. 

The most important thing when fighting tyranids if fire discipline. Know when to shoot at what, what to shoot at it. That carnifex may look scary, but remember there slow. Those hormagaunts with the genestealers behind them will be on you next turn ready to carve you up. 

We really need more info, points, what type of nids he runs, so on.

Btw, flamers are basically useless against nids as nids are too fast for them to be useful.


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## Imrix (Dec 31, 2007)

First, avoid short-ranged weaponry such as flamers in anything except a suicide squad, and if you do take them, take a lot.

As an example, the only time I would consider flamers against tyranids is four flamers on a devastator squad in a rhino, with no upgrades in sight. As cheap as possible, and designed for one purpose: Drive up right next to the biggest, nastiest swarm (Hormagaunts are best, Genestealers work too), burn the lot of them, and then admit the fact that that squad is now going to DIE, and very quickly. If you intend to take flamers, they needs to be mobile, otherwise the Tyranids will be charging before the flamers ever get in range.

Second, if you have spare points then don't be afraid to add in some more rhino's. It doesn't matter if they'll ever get used to move squads; they add a few extra bolter shots, and a wall of rhino's can be used to stall enemy squads. 

Neither of the above are things that should be done unless the points used literally are spare; if you can think of a better use for some points, these units should be the first to go.

Second: Range and rate of fire is the must. Pack in as many weapons with a range of 24"-48" as you can. Not every tactical squad needs heavy weaponry; often, they can get by perfectly well with bolters.

If you take a sergeant, he must a power fist and is there to slug carnifexii in the chops. Do not even bother taking the upgrade elsewhere; you won't be taking many Morale tests except in combat, and the extra attack won't help in many other places.

Go light on the high-strength, low-AP weapons. The things these will be going for are flying tyrants, normal tyrants, rigged-out Carnifexes, the occasional Zoanthrope and that's pretty much it. Almost all of these things can be dealt with, if need be, by massed small arms fire. A Zoanthrope, for example, has T4 and only needs to roll a pair of 1's against bolter fire to keel over and die.

Most of the big monsters will take time to reach your battle line; that means you will have multiple turns to pummel them and thus do not need multiple squads of heavy weaponry to do so with. The only exception to this is the flying tyrant; that must be nailed as quickly as possible. If your opponent does not take one, you can probably get away with a single devastator squad filled with lascannons or missile launchers, if that. If he does take one, take at least one squad of those weapons, possibly two, and make the flyrant their priority.

Do not underestimate the power of a dreadnought. Two dreadnoughts get you two assault cannons for cheaper than the five terminators necessary to do the same, can add in a heavy flamer (about the only time such weaponry is useful) and can hold up a large squad of hormagaunts for eternity, often being surrounded to the point that a squad of genestealers can't get in base contact to rip it to pieces.

Go light on the characters. People can advocate librarians for fex-killing, cahplains to make a counter-assault unit viable, and all manner of other things. All you need is one Master with some token weaponry to keep your army from running. A librarian can technically kill a fex, but you're maxing out at six attacks on the charge (which you may not get), four hits... You might get the six you need, you might not. However, if you don't the fex will then stomp on the librarians head, and if you do the librarian is probably in the middle of a lot of other things with claws. In fact, the librarian might well meet a perforated end before he even meets a Carnifex, considering the rest of the Tyranid army will be ahead of the things.

That's my advice, at any rate.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> Hrm, seems to me that this would do better in the Army Lists section. Ah well.
> 
> As for what to take against Tyranids, it really depends on a few factors.
> 
> ...



well said.

I alluded to this in another thread as well, the best anti-horde weapons is a rapidfiring bolter from a marine squad that disembarks from a rhino. Even better, tanks shock them first and add a flamer template to that equation.

Even rhinos on their own are invaluable against the lesser nids in corralling them and forcing them to take the long way around before they are able to tie up your units for the bigger bugs behind.

Rhino mounted squads, attack bikes will heavy bolter (turbo boost away if need be) Landspeeders with Heavy Flamers/Heavy Bolters.

I don't like making tailored lists, but I always include some missile launcher Devs for all purpose work. If you want you can always grab another squad of Heavy Bolter Devs and add a Whirlwind if your really desperate...

Remember, the smaller faster gribblies are the key. They will charge up to get to grips with you as fast as possible to rob you of the ability to shoot the Nid army to pieces. Make sure you have some maneuverable units such as A-Bikes to nails infiltrators or assaulter hiding behind terrain as they advance.

Static shooty will not cut it against a skill nid player. You need the ability to cut off those fast units before they reach your lines.

If building a firebase, you can grab a few small tac squads as speed bumps to protect your static firepower from assault.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

If you have the points ally in some grey knights. Their stormbolters work quite well against swarms. And their nemisis force weapons aren't things to be ignored either


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

@ Imrix... how do you put 4 flamers in a dev squad?

Otherwise, some very good points made by all.

But the important things for us to know are - what you're facing, and what you've got.

If you're up against swarms and swarms of gaunts, rippers and stealers, the answer is heavy bolters, storm bolters, assault cannons, flamers or heavy flamers, massed bolter-fire, (frag) missile launchers and vehicles packing the above (ie generally low-penetration weapons capable of chucking out templates/multiple shots).

If it's a carnifex-heavy list, go for armour-piercing weapons - plasma (pistols, guns, cannons), lascannons, meltaguns, krak missiles etc. They're also generally slow, so suicide squads with powerfists are viable.

You don't say what's in (or how big are) you tac squads. 'Small squads for fire support, big squads for combat' is a cliche, but makes some sense.

But you generally dont want to get into combat anyway.

Alternatively "don't do what I do" should see you clear, I generally end up pulverised by nids.

Hope this summing up helps...


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

I seem to remember being able to exchange devastator heavy weapons for special weapons back in 2nd ed, but I could be wrong. Obviously this is a rule that no longer applies.


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## kjhome9703 (Dec 31, 2007)

The way I squash the bugs is be as shooty as possible with ap2 weapons and flamers my cc squads are rarely used. I see the tyranid army as cc oriented, so I try to take away an army's strength. I do use a commander with a multi-melta and lightning claw to attack carnies and/or brood lord.


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## Ravenor (Dec 16, 2008)

I fear above all things the cheese that is the Nid Monster army. I find that unless I don't completely tailor my army for this rolling wave of chittering death, then I don't stand a chance.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Against nids you want missile launchers, and you want assault terminators. Why, you may ask? Most nidzilla armies actually DON'T upgrade the save of their fexes, and so you can easily take down a fex or two per turn with 3x 5 devs (4ML per squad), and then some LS typhoons. This is a pretty tough combo for any army, actually. It also lets you deal with horde nids with a ton of ML templates. Assault terminators let you deal with the 2+ save creatures in CC...negating the strengths of monstrous creatures (ignoring saves? you have a 3++. instant kill? you only have one wound anyhow.) Take a chaplain and a raider to carry them. Tac squads should take ML/Flamer and a rhino, for tank shocking and giving you another turn of shooting. 

Happy hunting.


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## brian36251 (Nov 21, 2008)

There are two aspects of Tyrannids to be wary of. 2+ save monstrous creatures and hords of guys. 

Hordes of guys can be dealt with effectively with flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons, and bolters. If you combat squad your tacs you can keep the little guys from hitting things that you don't want them to. After a couple rounds of shooting, even stand marines can do okay against gaunts. 

Monstrous creatures really demand plasma or lascannons. Missile launchers might do the job, but you're running a risk that he'll upgrade his mc's. 

Cassius is also an excellent HQ to take against tyrannids. He can go against a tyrant and not be instant-killed (because of his T6), meanwhile his power weapon denies their armour save, and he gets his inv.

A power fist or two will save your bacon if carnifexes do manage to hit your lines.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

As a nid player i must say missile launchers. Frag kills gaunts and stealers and krak kills most MC's.Also heavy bolter devastators as they kill stealers gaunts and warriors and even wound a MC.

2+ armour save MC's actauly aren't common. Most of the time it prevents taking fex's as an elite choice and even when hes a gun fex these will most likely only be one.To top this all of combined with synapse no instant death , so no force weapons.

As CC orientated as most people think nids are they don't use many. Most and almost all carnifex's are given devourers or venom cannon etc.Tyrants the same.Warriors can be either and both are good and hard. Genestealers don't bare thinking about. Gaunts are close range but generaly not CC. All together the only CC units there are is only genestealers and warriors every now and then , which i must say CC warriors normally have leaping so thats a 12" charge meaning you probably won't even be able to rapid fire at them.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Um, wow, this thread's almost a year old and it's back.

Funny thing is, a lot of the same things apply. :laugh:


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Only thing i have found to be effective is Pie plates and as many as u can bare, using rhinos with havok launchers are nice. they provide mobility, a ranged gun that can be effective against swarms, and lastly the wall tactic is always brilliant when used properly. another thing that I think works well is being prepared to sacrifice units... for example if a huge lot of stealers is most likely going to hit you next turn sacrifice 1 squad. Toss them up and block the route to the rest of your army forcing them to assault you then i guess gambling that you will end that cc in their assult phase to allow your army another turn of shooting at the squad. Other things like focusing fire power and dropping 50-75% of squads before they hit you, so when they do...well it does not hurt as much 

Only played nids a whole 4 times since i get back into 40k and i found things like that worked for me. Maybe he was bad, i got lucky....idk but thats my 2 cents

Cheers,

Chaosftw


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## Tharamil (Dec 18, 2008)

ok heres what kill nyds, 2 or 3 vindacators, about 2 lasscannons in you tactical squads, for help on taking down that carnifex wall, and 2 dreads with assault cannons. your vindicators are good with taking down swarms on nyds and also taking down that wall, lasscannons are good with taking down the wall to, and so are your dreads. The main goal is take down the wall quickly with your firepower, then all you have is a swarm coming at you and since your SM you should have enough fire power overall to hit them up (vindactors are really good at that, they got a nice template) and then finally when there up in your face your going to want assault squads. i like have either 2 ten man or 1 ten man and one five man veteran squad with all Power swords.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

To beat nids: bring missile launchers. And lots of them. Also bring a couple of assault termies with thunder hammers.


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