# Things you dislike...about armies you love!



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

1- Anyone noticed that Chaos Space Marines is now one of the least customizable armies in the game? This myriad of factions living in the warp itself apparently can't spare more than a handful of cult troops to make one army different from the next, and the only thing you can really change is the gear of some elite units and pick 1 out of 2 icons that are usually worth bothering. Really, Space Wolves give CSM a run for their money as far as having choice over your guys abilities is concerned. 

Iron Warriors really should get some vehicle rules or even a souped-up Predator or Vindi. World Eaters should get a clunkier Rhino that is an assault vehicle. EC should have a Dreadnought set up like a giant power-metal concert amp blasting sonic deadly bliss over half the field. Chaos Lords should get specific pacts or demonic gear that makes them distinct and unique. 

2- Tau are very nearsighted for a shooty army. It can be fixed with a costly investment in markerlights...that still fire at the same BS 3 everyone else has! "Yay, I hit a marlight..wish I could have used that 6 for the actual Rail shot!" I can understand balance issues, but giving a caste trooper groomed since birth to fire his rifle (and since the eschew melee, he'd likely be getting extra rifle drills around the clock) the same BS as a lowly gaunt that was just squirted out of a squishy womb is silly. 

3- Tau again: Seeing battlesuit fire warriors, the elite of the elite, turn tail and run after losing a drone makes me a sad panda. "Our trio of Broadsides bristling with enough rail power to pierce two Death Starts in a line has just lost a shield drone meant to take hits for us! Ruuun! Run ponderously for your lives!"

Add your own petty tragedies, hopefully in a less whiny manner than I did!

Add your own


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

An out-and-out bitching thread? Is this allowed? In the spirit of enquiry of course. Now, on to the bitching!

- Eldar Grav Tanks. The Falcon is a gunship, and has BS3. The Fire Prism is a gunship, and has BS4. Why? Does adding a 6-person transport capacity mean the gunner is suddenly having a conniption fit instead of aiming?

- The sheer number of relatively pointless units. Support weapons, Guardians, Shining Spears, Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders spring to mind. The best I can say about all of the above is "They might not die".

- Shrike. Lightning Claws with Rending. Why? Why not, oh, I don't know, Furious Charge or Hit and Run instead? Because they are Power Weapons, there is only 1 situation that they are useful, and that is fighting a Wraithlord. Anything else he's wounding on 6s anyway, and against Vehicles all it does is turn his Glances into Penetratings. WHY ARE YOU HITTING A VEHICLE WITH HIM? And where is his Artificer Armour? Doesn't he get mocked by Vulkan every time they meet up for tea and biscuits?

Overall though, I'm happy with my armies.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The new Mephiston having the same stats as a Tyranid Swarmlord.

Seriously GW, what the FUCK!?!?!:headbutt:


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

OH, and one I forgot, mostly fluff-based:

4- Chaos sorcerers. These guys were psykers that crossed the treshold. They lost their souls in the dark allure of sorcery in exchange for ultimate power that would be locked otherwise.

And what are they? Psykers. Plain regular psykers. No new rules, nothing fancy or unique. Just a psykers with even more skulls piled on its shoulders.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

I dont like that noise marines and their blastmaster cost so damn much. Thats about it. Love my chaos army lack of customisation doesnt even matter - i run noisem/oblits/dp's because i love shooting power and i like big nasty HQ's, lol.

Though i could add more things, like no useful lord - a slaanesh lord with some modified blastamster and doom siren atleast...crappy psychers, defilers being so low armor - what the fck blood angel flying skimmer with loads of weapons on it and more than 10 transport has MORE armor overal than big defiler with huge ass cannon sticking out of it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Primarily, about Eldar:

- Swooping Hawks
- Shining Spears
- Artillery
- Avatar
- Phoenix Lords
- WRAITHGUARD!!!!
- Wraithlords
- Striking Scorpions
- Dark Reapers
- Howling Banshees
- Warp Spiders
- War Walkers
- Guardians
- Rangers

That and the fact that most of the prices are the same as in 2nd Ed. 'Codex Creep', you say? WTF are you on about? It only exists in your heads.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Primarily, about Eldar:
> - Swooping Hawks
> - Shining Spears
> - Artillery
> ...



Hmm. That leaves Eldrad and the Fire Prism as things you are neutral about or actually like, I think!


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

And Dire Avengers and Falcons and Fire Dragons. The good units, basically.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> OH, and one I forgot, mostly fluff-based:
> 
> 4- Chaos sorcerers. These guys were psykers that crossed the treshold. They lost their souls in the dark allure of sorcery in exchange for ultimate power that would be locked otherwise.
> 
> And what are they? Psykers. Plain regular psykers. No new rules, nothing fancy or unique. Just a psykers with even more skulls piled on its shoulders.


...and they are the only thing in my chaos army that is NOT fearless. WTF?!?!?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> 1- Anyone noticed that Chaos Space Marines is now one of the least customizable armies in the game? This myriad of factions living in the warp itself apparently can't spare more than a handful of cult troops to make one army different from the next, and the only thing you can really change is the gear of some elite units and pick 1 out of 2 icons that are usually worth bothering. Really, Space Wolves give CSM a run for their money as far as having choice over your guys abilities is concerned.
> 
> Iron Warriors really should get some vehicle rules or even a souped-up Predator or Vindi. World Eaters should get a clunkier Rhino that is an assault vehicle. EC should have a Dreadnought set up like a giant power-metal concert amp blasting sonic deadly bliss over half the field. Chaos Lords should get specific pacts or demonic gear that makes them distinct and unique.



Hey, you saved me typing.


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## dthwish09 (Oct 15, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Primarily, about Eldar:
> 
> - Swooping Hawks
> - Shining Spears
> ...


they need a new dex thats for sure, Im sure they will be one of the next 3 to come out.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

dthwish09 said:


> they need a new dex thats for sure, Im sure they will be one of the next 3 to come out.


Except they won't.

We're seeing BA, DH and DE next for sure, unless they decide to throw another imperium army in there before DE.

As for what I'm upset about? All sorts of things. Bright/Dark lances not being AP1 and/or being damn well crappier than a lascannon against anything except the few cases where we see av14 that isn't Living Metal or a Blessed Hull. Various crap. Not getting errata to make units function the way they were intended to (Banshees). Starcannons (couldn't they at least have made them s7 or something to throw us a bone after they overcosted them and dropped them to heavy 2?).


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## Emet Paladin of Truth (Mar 5, 2010)

Tau can invent a giant freaking robot... but can't master the sawed-off shotgun

that would be awesome for tau to have... spacemarine vs. shotgun in close combat: BLAM! :biggrin:

and yet, they do have 'filichette disruptors'


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## the Brayn (Oct 30, 2009)

I have to agree with the complaints about the CSM army lists being too static. I find it ironic that a God based in Chaos only gives one type of bonus to all of their followers. I think GW needs to reinvestigate what Chaos truly means. I don't mean that I want random stat increases for my units every game but I don't think that Khorne should only give the option of +1A and Slaanesh only give +1I. Army lists would be much more diverse if the gods could bestow whatever option they want on any given unit. It would make things more interesting at the very least.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Witch Hunters in no particular order

1) Defective Land Raiders (see their "Machine spirit", compare to DH in the FAQ and any other army list's - also not assault vehicle)

2) Prerequesites: Ok, to take acroflagellants or penitent engines I need a priest, even if my HQ is an inquisitor lord capable of ordering exterminatus on the planet of the priest who's saying "you can't take our acroflagellants without one of our people to keep an eye on you and force your units to charge instead of shooting rapid fire".

3) Units over which you have little to no control: PE, Acroflagellants, units with priests, Repentia... I can just see an army where the Inquisitor quits because nobody listens to him anyway. It is especially irritating that 3 of the above 4 are beautiful models with great fluff.


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## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

-The heads on Obliterators

-The Nurgle DP face

-Mephiston have the same hair as goldylocks

-Every Chaos Legion being the same now

-Salamanders need their own models. . . they're just too cool not to.

-Konrad Curze was kind of emo in my eyes.

and I'm sure I have more but can't think of anything at the moment. . . mostly cosmetic stuff.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

dthwish09 said:


> they need a new dex thats for sure, Im sure they will be one of the next 3 to come out.


I don't anticipate one before 2012/3. Sigh. It'll be fine, because for 6 glorious months we'll be the best army again...then the rules will change, and we'll have to buy those Harlequins that became Troops but weren't awesome in 5th somehow...mumble...

* Disclaimer* - Everything after the sigh (which was genuine) is horseshit speculation.


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## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> I don't anticipate one before 2012/3. Sigh. It'll be fine, because for 6 glorious months we'll be the best army again...then the rules will change, and we'll have to buy those Harlequins that became Troops but weren't awesome in 5th somehow...mumble...
> 
> * Disclaimer* - Everything after the sigh (which was genuine) is horseshit speculation.


its like a Surgeons General Warning for Warhammer


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Just about everything about Flash Gitz

- Their a Heavy Support when they should be an Elite
- They have BS2 when their fluff says they love killing stuff with their gunz, but really they can never kill anything because they almost never hit, so they must be very depressed Orks.
- Would BS3 really be that overpowered?
- Their the "richest" Orks... but I guess their still not rich enough to buy a transport??


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Dark Eldar Scourge being completely over priced and only just useful but not cost effective enough to want to take over a ravager, I have used them but not being able to move and shoot with the dark lances and one model (warrior with wings) with a DL costing 41pts is ridiculous.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Blue Liger, I thought you were going to win the thread by just posting 'The Models.' :laugh:


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I try to ignore my models it's sometimes rather depressing and so I "think" the look "amazing"!


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

A Warrior with wings (Jump Infantry?), that can't move and shoot its heavy weapon? *Head Explodes*


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Styro-J, yes jump infantry oh look we have 12" movent but if we have upgraded our men to carry darklances this is useless as we can't fire them when we move - they can take an Assault 4 S4 weapon (splinter cannon) but it still makes the one model 36pts as that gun is 5pts less than the dark lance and with a 5+ armour save - they are a yeah NO! unit.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

That is a crime, if they can't move and shoot there is no point.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

The worst part it was they did it in 3rd edition - I mean WTF and then leaving it for 2 editions with no explanation


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The thing i dislike most about the new Tyranids is the rules disputes.

GW authors should be tied up and raped/tortured by Slaanesh/DE.

The 4th ed codex was perfectly fine how it was, and now they release this other piss-poor excuse for a codex.

The rules are so badly written that i cant play a game without a fucking shit fight breaking out over the stupid rules.
Doom of Malantai, wings, hive commander, reserves, trygon, lictor, mycetic spores, the list goes on. They all have rules that are stupidly written and completely open to interpretation.
The whole codex is completely unplayable until they get off their arse and release a *DETAILED* FAQ and some new bloody models.
Looking forward to getting my Orks finished so i can play some fun games, and ill pull my Nids off the shelf in a year or 2 when GW finally get their act together and do something about this piece of shit they call a codex.


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## Chaplain Gaius (Mar 11, 2010)

I dislike the fact that the Ultras dont get any cool shoulder pad chapter upgrade things. I'm tired of using those crappy water decals


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> Styro-J, yes jump infantry oh look we have 12" movent but if we have upgraded our men to carry darklances this is useless as we can't fire them when we move - they can take an Assault 4 S4 weapon (splinter cannon) but it still makes the one model 36pts as that gun is 5pts less than the dark lance and with a 5+ armour save - they are a yeah NO! unit.


Uhm dont you get relentless with jump packs?


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## Blammer (Nov 17, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Uhm dont you get relentless with jump packs?


no they simply make you jump infantry unless codex says otherwise.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

No unfortunately, you're thinking jetpacks - slightly different rules for shooting and assault movement


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

@Sephyr: Ever taken a look at the Necron codex? CSM are the most deluxe customisable army in the whole universe compared to Necrons. No upgrades or wargear for anything apart from the Necron Lord, and only a single troop option that has no weapon variations... Be thankful for even the little customisation your codex allows you.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

darklove said:


> @Sephyr: Ever taken a look at the Necron codex? CSM are the most deluxe customisable army in the whole universe compared to Necrons. No upgrades or wargear for anything apart from the Necron Lord, and only a single troop option that has no weapon variations... Be thankful for even the little customisation your codex allows you.


Well, they are robots after all.
Fits their fluff.:laugh:


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## TheGrayTapE (Mar 9, 2010)

Eldar psycker spirit stones (I think its spirit stones).
I find adding an extra dice to increase my chances of passing a psych test does nothing more than increase my chances of rolling snake eyes! AND, in 5th edition they dont get the added perk of halving demons ws!

Monsterous creatures not being able to run! I started an eldar army BECAUSE of the avatar, and the avatar alone. Now I consider myself lucky if he ever manages to lug his slow ass into assault, and now only ever use him in defensive scenarios. EVEN MY VENERABLE DREADNOUGHT IS CAPABLE OF SPRINTING!!! Ironically, my dreadnought is made entirely of pewter, and is the heaviest model I own between my two armies!

Space wolves 5th edition left out the Leman Russ! The iconic tank of the sw army named after their primarch, and the coolest looking 40k tank in my opinion.
Lucky for me I only ever play 40k against one person, and he still allows me to field it because...
A) He knows I wont take it against his chaos b/c its practically useless with little ap.
B) Its fun for his tau to blow up, with his numerous broadside and hammerhead gun ships railguns.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

???
You still have a Ghosthelm 3+ to ignore it, and a 4+ Inv.

MCs CAN run, they just can't Assault if they do so without Fleet...exactly like Dreadnoughts.

A Battlecannon is AP3...how that's useless against MEQS I cannot fathom.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> 2- Tau are very nearsighted for a shooty army. It can be fixed with a costly investment in markerlights...that still fire at the same BS 3 everyone else has! "Yay, I hit a marlight..wish I could have used that 6 for the actual Rail shot!" I can understand balance issues, but giving a caste trooper groomed since birth to fire his rifle (and since the eschew melee, he'd likely be getting extra rifle drills around the clock) the same BS as a lowly gaunt that was just squirted out of a squishy womb is silly.
> 
> 3- Tau again: Seeing battlesuit fire warriors, the elite of the elite, turn tail and run after losing a drone makes me a sad panda. "Our trio of Broadsides bristling with enough rail power to pierce two Death Starts in a line has just lost a shield drone meant to take hits for us! Ruuun! Run ponderously for your lives!"
> 
> ...


Tau do not need BS4! They have markerlights for that, just imagine how OP it would be when you only need 1 ML hit for a barrage of S5 shots hitting you on 2s! Tau are all about unit synergy, get some pathfinders in your army if you really need to hit better, make your units work together. Besides, why the hell are you caring about crappy FWs anyway? They should be locked up inside your Devilfishes...



Sethis said:


> - Shrike. Lightning Claws with Rending. Why? Why not, oh, I don't know, Furious Charge or Hit and Run instead? Because they are Power Weapons, there is only 1 situation that they are useful, and that is fighting a Wraithlord. Anything else he's wounding on 6s anyway, and against Vehicles all it does is turn his Glances into Penetratings. WHY ARE YOU HITTING A VEHICLE WITH HIM? And where is his Artificer Armour? Doesn't he get mocked by Vulkan every time they meet up for tea and biscuits?
> 
> Overall though, I'm happy with my armies.


Shrike has Rending for Vehicles I guess, if you're taking him for his rending then you are using him wrong. Just see it as a nice little extra.



Da Joka said:


> Just about everything about Flash Gitz
> 
> - Their a Heavy Support when they should be an Elite
> - They have BS2 when their fluff says they love killing stuff with their gunz, but really they can never kill anything because they almost never hit, so they must be very depressed Orks.
> ...


Just because they _like_ to shoot doesn't mean they are good at it lol. It makes little sense as a unit but fluffwise its ok.



TheKingElessar said:


> A Battlecannon is AP3...how that's useless against MEQS I cannot fathom.


IIRC they only got Exterminators, not the regular kind.

@TKE and Sethis: You guys seem to hate your dex. Yes FDs are the best parts of the codex but they aren't the only viable option, they are just the most competative, its not quite the same.

As for me I would like to see more reason to take SM scouts, maybe if they came with cluster mines like the bikes do or something.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Fire Dragons ARE the only viable anti-tank in the Codex, except for Seer Councils...and when your anti-tank is limited to CC, and you cost 3 times as much a model, you're an inferior unit in that role.

I don't hate my Codex in of itself, I loved it when it was released...I hate what it has become...I don't like playing one-dimensionally, it's why I stopped playing my Orks over a year ago...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I love my Eldar, I said in my post I was happy with all my armies! I'd just like to see a shortening of this line:

[Anything else]--------------------------------<Effectiveness>----------------------------------------[Mechdar or Jetseers]


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

take Jetchdar!


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## ThePublic (Apr 8, 2009)

the Imperium not offering All the equpment to all of it's troop (used to play a mixed set of marine & IG as well as my first Basilisk had marines crewing it)

that and parity for equipment (a gun should cost the same no matter who shoots it)


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Calamari said:


> Tau do not need BS4! They have markerlights for that, just imagine how OP it would be when you only need 1 ML hit for a barrage of S5 shots hitting you on 2s! Tau are all about unit synergy, get some pathfinders in your army if you really need to hit better, make your units work together. Besides, why the hell are you caring about crappy FWs anyway? They should be locked up inside your Devilfishes...


I see markerlights as a very expensive fix to a problem that shouldn't be there. I have to spend 150+ points, 10% of my regular list budget, to give my troops better than even odds of doing the only thing they are meant to do? A BS of 4 plus markerlights might make them hit -too- well, but most of those hits would still be needed to negate the cover saves everyone and their uncle has.

The very fact that you suggest just tossing Fire warriors into a transport and parking them somewhere speaks of how bungled they are. With a bit more oomph they might get to, you know, clear an objective instead of having the rest of the army do it and then just walking up to it after the ticker-tape parade is over and things are safe. 

I didn't meant just the Fire warrior, though. Battlesuits also have mediocre BS, though they have the option of getting a TA and (usually) a high volume of fire to make up for it.

But pretty much every Tau game I've seen has been a festival of

1- Shooting a lot
2-Poor number of hits
3-Decent number of wounds
4-Most of them getting saved. 

This can be fixed by sinking lots of points to make the troops near-specialists (markerlights, shield drones on Broadsides, TAs across the board), leaving you with a very poor model count and guys that are -still- not quite a match to other people's specialists, and who will be destroyed in CC when things get close, as they inevitably do with all the battlewagon/LR/Drop Pod/Mawloc/Outflanking fun there is to be had nowadays.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

I think it would be easier to give Tau BS4 and scrap the whole markerlight idea.
Maybe boost the FW points cost up to 11 to make up for it.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

@Calamari: well the Codex also says their very good at their job... witch they aren't lol


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

there are no special rules or units for the csm legions


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

cain the betrayer said:


> there are no special rules or units for the csm legions


Worse thing they did with the codex was take away the numbers of the gods.
Taking a certain number for the free aspiring champion upgrade was worth it for both fluff and effectiveness, and gave people a reason to run a fluffy army.
Seeing the marks of all 4 gods in the same list is quite unfluffy IMO.

If i got some sort of benefit for running the one god with the appropriate numbers, i would actually consider dropping my plague marines for noise marines.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

The lack of a droppod, dreadclaw or normal in the chaos dex im mean WTF

Stupid crazy dreads, just drop that gorram rule so i dont have to take a 30ft defiler!


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I don't like how Nobz, who are the supposedly top dogs and (somewhat) arrogant bunch of the Boyz only have Ld 7 base. Sure Mob Rule helps but in a 10 man Nob squad, that really doesn't help when the casualties start stacking. I also dislike how the KMB got turned into a poor-man's lascannon, they should have just kept it as a blast weapon, with the same stats but slightly longer range. Tankbustas shouldn't have ever gotten the retarded rule of Glory Hogs and at least should have had Tank Hunters to justify their pretty expensive points cost. The only couple of other things they should have fixed is without a dobt Flash Gitz, Burna Boyz, Looted Wagons and maybe Deff Dreads (okay maybe more than a couple). The lack of widely accessible PW (not including PK) is also a bit of a downer, with lots of fan-made ones like in the WAAAGH! forum clearly giving great fluff reasons and tasty rules (e.g. The Rippa, think of it as a PW halberd, gives +1 strength but needs 2 of it to give an extra attack, for Mega Armour troops/char.) Plus why didn't they keep the Zzap Guns with auto-hit? It makes me a sad panda...


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> I think it would be easier to give Tau BS4 and scrap the whole markerlight idea.
> Maybe boost the FW points cost up to 11 to make up for it.


Or maybe do this - the upgraded squad leader automatically comes with a marker light on his gun and has an upgraded BS to 4 instead of giving him +1 I and A or whatever it is, and then have a rule saying that marker lights are fired before all weaponry in the squad are fired - problem fixed make the squad leader better BS and give him a marker light that fires before the rest of the squad or just give him the marker light as I don't know many tau teams that just shoot one squad of warriors at one unit and then laev them as it usually takes more.


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## BHound1981 (Feb 25, 2010)

Vulkan - I can see him giving the army linked meltas and flamers, but the hammers? Seriously? Ok, fine - they forge a lot of stuff, so let's let them have their ridiculous thunderhammers, but because of all these abilities he confers, he's got to be a little weak on the field, right? Wrong again - the guy is practically a one man army. That and they made all Salamanders black. And I don't mean black as in brown skinned - I mean black as in their skin looks like freakin' coal. 

Just because I can't stand him - every time I see him on the table, he dies first.

Sometimes I think there's a GW staff meeting every month where they sit around a bong and come up with some of the dumbest ideas thinking they'll be hilarious. This thread alone is proof.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

BHound1981 said:


> Vulkan - I can see him giving the army linked meltas and flamers, but the hammers? Seriously? Ok, fine - they forge a lot of stuff, so let's let them have their ridiculous thunderhammers, but because of all these abilities he confers, he's got to be a little weak on the field, right? Wrong again - the guy is practically a one man army. That and they made all Salamanders black. And I don't mean black as in brown skinned - I mean black as in their skin looks like freakin' coal.
> 
> Just because I can't stand him - every time I see him on the table, he dies first.
> 
> Sometimes I think there's a GW staff meeting every month where they sit around a bong and come up with some of the dumbest ideas thinking they'll be hilarious. This thread alone is proof.


I agree.
Meltas and flamers fair enough, but thunder hammers is a bit over the top.

I also think that the twin linked and master crafted abilities should die when he dies.

On top of that, he is S6 in close combat, has a heavy flamer, and a 2+/3+ save. All for a rediculously cheap 190 points.

TH/SS Terminators are cheap enough for what they do as they are, never mind making their thunderhammers mastercrafted too.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Storm sheilds are a bit OP they need to go back to just allowing ++ svaes in CC


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Blue Liger said:


> Or maybe do this - the upgraded squad leader automatically comes with a marker light on his gun and has an upgraded BS to 4 instead of giving him +1 I and A or whatever it is, and then have a rule saying that marker lights are fired before all weaponry in the squad are fired - problem fixed make the squad leader better BS and give him a marker light that fires before the rest of the squad or just give him the marker light as I don't know many tau teams that just shoot one squad of warriors at one unit and then laev them as it usually takes more.


I like this fix a lot. There is even a mechanic already in place for that, with the optional networked markerlights some units can get, but it is quite point-intensive.


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

I kind of skipped a bit so forgive me if this has been said before. The lack of an armoury in any of the new codices. What's up with that? IG vet Sgts should be able to have what I want to give them, not what GW wants to sell me. Its my hobby for God's sake! Grrr. 5th edition pisses me off somewhat.


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## Emet Paladin of Truth (Mar 5, 2010)

Oh and why the frak is a markerlight a heavy weapon? ITS A LASER POINTER! it should AT LEAST have the stats of the weaponized version: the lasgun.

for that matter the railrifle is smaller than a pulse rifle, but its heavy, too


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

piemaster said:


> I kind of skipped a bit so forgive me if this has been said before. The lack of an armoury in any of the new codices. What's up with that? IG vet Sgts should be able to have what I want to give them, not what GW wants to sell me. Its my hobby for God's sake! Grrr. 5th edition pisses me off somewhat.


Really? A simpler game isn't better? Perhaps you preferred having 80+ options for every guy, of which only 5 or 6 were any good. Anywho - nothing is preventing you from playing older Editions with your friends...do what you want! Just don't expect the majority to be with you on the Armoury thing.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Things I hate about Necrons:

Pariahs
Flayed Ones
Tomb Spiders
Out of date terminology and lack of unit choice
...did I mention Pariahs already? They deserve to be listed several times...


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## shas'o_mi'ros'kai (Jun 16, 2008)

Tau Empire. BS 3. Is all I can say about them *crying face*

Sisters of Battle. Can do everything a Space Marine can do but, in my experience, seem not to live as long... Flak armour lasts longer *bawling face*


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

BS 3 means they can charge less for the model while allowing markerlights to do more.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

1) CSM's have no option for drop pods. It states in the codex that CSM's have access to all the equipment the SM's had at the time of the heresy, which includes drop pods. yet, no drop pod option.....

2) Too many units have the same vanilla CSM statline. Why does my big, hulking Chaos Obliterator, Chaos Sorcerer only have T and S 4?

3) Only one effective dedicated transport, the Rhino (LR is only a dedicated transport for Termies). Normal Space Marines have around 4 dedicated transports IIRC


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Eldar is my second fave army (tied with my Space Wolves), but all I have to say is...
Eldrad is dead. Why is he even an option?
And why would he work with the Iyanden autarch?
They're different craftworlds.
Should be different armies.
As someone else said, Falcons should have a BS of 4.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Because he's not actually dead. He's just resting. Additionally, they were too gorram lazy to actually come up with a new omfguber psycker. Make up your own baddass mind-d00d and use counts-as rules for him.

Yriel is one of the most epic pirate princes in existance. The pirate fleets go everywhere.

Additionally, lists now let you field multiple uniques that don't neccesarily have a fluff reason to work together. They gave us one "eldar" list. There is no list specific to any one craftworld. Otherwise we'd play Biel-Tan and take Fire Dragons as troops.

...

...

...


Oh, holy shit.








Excuse me for a moment. I have an extensive blackmail campaign based around creating a Bielt-Tan autarch and FOC modifications he generates to plan. This is going to be fucking amazing.


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

shas'o_mi'ros'kai said:


> Sisters of Battle. Can do everything a Space Marine can do but, in my experience, seem not to live as long... Flak armour lasts longer *bawling face*


Well, T3 is probably the reason for that.
On that note, the fact that no one at my FLGS plays Witch Hunters. Everyone I game against seems to play marines, apart from 1 guard and a few orc players.
I'm sick of seeing the same list from 10 different people.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

See, it used to be we had a solution to that. It was called the Starcannon. It meant you had wasted those points on your pretty power armour and extra point of toughness.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

That orks have no good melta, it makes me sad but every time i see a land raider hit the table i know there is no way I am killing that thing until after it has done it's job.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Drizzt_13 said:


> That orks have no good melta, it makes me sad but every time i see a land raider hit the table i know there is no way I am killing that thing until after it has done it's job.


Battlewaggon plus kan savagery?

Oh, wait, you said _before_.


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## Kharken (Mar 14, 2010)

Pariahs... they should be great, they sound great but after a while you see the stupidly expensive dust collectors on your shelf and whish you'd bought anything else 

flayed ones and wraiths they look good but the hands break off far too easily and pinning them is hell ... and dont live up to the fluff

CSM-constantly being told that my new army sucks because it doesnt have 2 lash DP, plague marrines and 9 oblits anbd how I should drop everything I have to get them.

Orks- the models look too damn cool and easily kitbashed and one day their siren song will empty my wallet :grin:


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## ssamoel (Jul 27, 2009)

I love the pre-heresy World eaters:
But the turned chaos
They are hard to make as a army
Im trying to use space wolves now to make them


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> Because he's not actually dead. He's just resting. Additionally, they were too gorram lazy to actually come up with a new omfguber psycker. Make up your own baddass mind-d00d and use counts-as rules for him.
> 
> Yriel is one of the most epic pirate princes in existance. The pirate fleets go everywhere.
> 
> ...




Erm... What part of "his body was totally destroyed" and his soul being separated from his body do people not understand?
And the "one army list" approach that 4th-5th edition espouses is a terrible idea.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Exactly. BODY destroyed, and soul wasn't there at the time...so his soul exists. So he's not dead, he's just disembodied.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

For Eldrad, think of Phoenix Lords... When they die their body vanishes but whoever puts on the armor becomes them. Eldrad poured his consciousness into several Stones before he went off to fight. When his body was destroyed, most of those stones lost their glow. Some still have them, and it is the ones that still exist that allow us to field Eldrad as an HQ currently!

You just wait until they throw the remaining stones into a Wraithlord body. That's right a Super Psyker Wraithlord, preferably with an awesome Bonesinger retinue!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Entirely possible. Thing is, the current codex is set slightly before the EoT anyway - so he's fully functional. Like Data, eh Tasha Yar?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Tau - 
I love the idea of a hunter style army, but with it being pretty much guaranteed that you need all 3 hammer heads in your army at any past 100, it gets a little lame.

Dark Eldar -
I an't beat you in combat? ok, I have 15 dark lances to throw at you in the shooting. I can't out shoot you? ok, I have 3 power CC units designed to be better than other CC specialists. Oh, And I have this in the same army. More units to choose from pleasssse!!!

Eldar - 
Ok, so I have no reason to not take my Serpent spam list

Night Lords -
Suck. I have to take KB, PM, oblits and 2 lash princes to get anywhere in tournies.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Exactly. BODY destroyed, and soul wasn't there at the time...so his soul exists. So he's not dead, he's just disembodied.


Unless you don't overlook the fact his soul is trapped in a chaos ship, of course...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Unless you don't overlook the fact his soul is trapped in a chaos ship, of course...


a) See earlier Spirit Stones comments
b) If it fits the business model, then he will defeat the Slaaneshi Daemon, and take over the Blackstone Fortress he's 'trapped' in.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

If b), the Eldar will have one of its weapons of old again to combat the every growing (awakening) Necron threat. That's the way the fluff cookie crumbles...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> b) If it fits the business model, then he will defeat the Slaaneshi Daemon, and take over the Blackstone Fortress he's 'trapped' in.


Dude, he didn't run into a daemon...... be ran into the king sob himself. But anyway I hate the fact that DAs gear sucks. I want the shiny new models!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, it couldn't be the god itself. Warp Gods can't directly possess material items.

Imagine they took away shitty Defend and gave us nice shiny free Def Grenades instead. Ah...wishful thinking.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

And made them 2 points cheaper while increasing the minimum squad size to 6, so DAVU prices stay the same but they're cheaper for fold. And turning Starcannons into ap2 autocannons while lance weapons all became ap1... or anything else that would make their stuff work properly.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> lance weapons all became ap1...


If this DOESN'T happen, I think I'm going to stop playing with the Space Elves. Why should TYRANIDS and SPACE MARINES get better Lance weaponry than Eldar? Y'know, the only race who was ever meant to have it? :ireful2:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd be happy with 4th Ed AP1 rules, instead of Lance as is, tbh. 
Eldar:
Always Penetrating, All The Time.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I have an Eldar army, but a fluff list rather than a really hard-core list like my other armies. Eldar are already really powerful and have some things that are almost game breaking. It is possible to have 90 Wraithguard in a single, and legal, FOC!


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Always Penetrating, All The Time.


Oh rly? thats pretty impressive


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Don't tell me that 90 Wraithguard is game breaking. I admit that walking up to a board and seeing that may be temporarily intimidating for the opponent. But after that they'd realize, "wait, that's just about 100 models... This is a 4000 point game, no problem!" Those Wraithguard units are going to cost just under 3600 points of that (warlocks included) and the Wraithguard will cost something like $1350 (warlocks not included). With that many points it is easy to expect the opponent will have several things that can counter that. If the enemy has 2 battle cannons/ vindicators, he has already won. Hive Guard would hurt tremendously as well, even the Doom of Malantai only has to save the few instant death wounds. Orks would simply walk up and grind them down with numbers. Eldar will stay away shooting with heavy weapons until they are ready to melta several of them down. 

There are lots of problems with the whole Wraithguard spam idea. There is nothing broken about that, except that for 35 points a model it should be better than it is.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

90 Wraithguard is gamebreaking? Er, do you meant _walletbreaking_?

It'd be like fielding 90 plaguemarines with reeeeaaaally crappy meltaguns given out to everyone. All footslogging. And it costs well over 3k points. I mean, wouldn't you really, really have the people with meltaguns have real meltaguns instead of a distinctly worse one? And transports? And cost half as many points? Plus the heavy flamer is a bit cheaper at that point. 19 points per model plus a gun downgrade is a lot to pay for increased durability, even if we ARE talking upgrading to power armour and gaining 3 toughness.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Styro-J said:


> Don't tell me that 90 Wraithguard is game breaking. I admit that walking up to a board and seeing that may be temporarily intimidating for the opponent. But after that they'd realize, "wait, that's just about 100 models... This is a 4000 point game, no problem!" Those Wraithguard units are going to cost just under 3600 points of that (warlocks included) and the Wraithguard will cost something like $1350 (warlocks not included). With that many points it is easy to expect the opponent will have several things that can counter that. If the enemy has 2 battle cannons/ vindicators, he has already won. Hive Guard would hurt tremendously as well, even the Doom of Malantai only has to save the few instant death wounds. Orks would simply walk up and grind them down with numbers. Eldar will stay away shooting with heavy weapons until they are ready to melta several of them down.
> 
> There are lots of problems with the whole Wraithguard spam idea. There is nothing broken about that, except that for 35 points a model it should be better than it is.


Using a single FOC, a few battle cannons means nothing to a list of 90 Wraithguard that always have a cover save and T6. There are very few armies that can counter it in a single, legal, FOC. There are some that can do it, but not many.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Always have a cover save?

Yes. You can pay points so that you're always standing in ankle-height grass? Yay! Too bad their guns are so short range that you can't, say, stand in that forrest over there and shoot out. That would be simply to helpfull. And don't tell me t6 will save them. Anything s8 or higher is still looking at a 2+ wound. It's just "wasting" less strength.

You're paying 375 points a squad (more for actual warlock powers) per squad. At that point your opponent can afford to throw squads with powerclawed Nobbs at you or just shoot you apart with vehicles. You're on foot. There are enough slow-ap-high-strength weapons out there to handle it, and toxicguants would be hilarious.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

The only thing the opponent has to do is stay 19" away, then their safe. 

Things that can do that AND ignore armor:

Multi-Melta
Plasma
Battle Cannon
Demolisher
Earthshaker (though you'll likely not see it)
Lascannons (at 4k points you can expect to see lots of these)
Exorcist Missile
Krak Missiles
Blast Master
Soul Grinder's Tongue and Phlegm 
Pulse Lasers
Star Cannons (Don't count of it, lol)
Dark/Bright Lance
Disintegraters
Boom Guns
Kustom Mega Blastas
Rokkit Launchas
Ion Cannons
Rail weapons
Particle Whips
Heavy Gauss Cannons

And that is only the ones that can do so almost reliably (used loosely). From what I can tell most of these are mounted on vehicles that can move back and shoot. Even otherwise, these guys are really poor in assault. Sure they have good Strength, but one attack and no power weapon is a killer.

I would love to see Wraithguard get an assault variant though, or at least an extra wound...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Honestly Darklove - It'd be fun, but incredibly shit. Well, I say fun. Fun if the opponent is blindfolded.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm confused. How does a person manage to get 90 wraithguard into a single FOC slot?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

60 (6x10) as Troops @ approx 399 points each, then 3 Elites slots for 384+ per squad.

Presumably, they all have ConceaLocks, so we're looking at 9x400 points, basically.

The same cost then, as 18 squads of 5 TH/SS Termies - practically the only thing outranged by the WG. I don't need to tell you how THAT would pan out.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Oh, I guess I read Darklove's comment about so many armies not being able to handle that much rubbish that I was trying to come up with other meanings for the words in his post. :search: I thought he meant a single FOC "choice", like a Troops choice or Elites choice, rather than filling out an entire FOC.

It's like the time that an Ork player spent five minutes setting up his three mobs in a checkerboard pattern and was so proud of the cover saves he was going to get. Then I had to point out that I was playing Daemons and only had assault troops and Flamers, so I should be thanking him for the cover save from his shooting. :laugh:

It's amusing how many Bloodletters and Flamers a Daemon player can buy after putting three Soulgrinders and some Pavane chariots in for fun.


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## BroodingLord (Feb 17, 2009)

The new tyranids. I don't like the direction their taking them... Did the nids evolutionary balls drop off in space somewhere? This is a species based on rapid evolution what happened to the 40+ options on my Fex??? Even if 50% of the options were scrap most lists were extremely varied (not 4th edition in third this was more common too many nidzillain 4th) and now fifth, looks like their trying to turn the nids into none evolutionary, random hero bugs (doom in particular) elite lists when their supposed to be evolving hordes.
In short
-Nids have become marines with very little to no upgrades per unit, unlike their evolutionary fluff and previous codexes 
- The nid heroes are awesome but seem kinda stupid and backwards to me, the hive ships spawn them, the mind couldnt it say "hmmm that doom sure rocks ass.. lets pump out a bakers dozen and see how they roll O WAIT I CANT! COOTIES!"
-No reason to take overpriced fexes (were underprice in fourth GET THE POINTS RIGHT)
-Standardized stat lines for weapons, the old variability in shots fired/str/living ammo were all awesome fluffy and very cool, now a fleshborer has the same str on a gaunt as it does on a hulking fex couldnt a fex carry a bigger version?
-Very little to deal with mechanized AV14 (zoans unreliable, guard unpossible, fexes too expensive, Tfex more expensiver, trygons/mawlocs are ok but necrons cant be hurt by em)

Pretty much nids have become vanilla and I hate it, the older variability is what drew me and its almost gone, might as well calling em space marines...


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

BroodingLord said:


> The new tyranids. I don't like the direction their taking them... Did the nids evolutionary balls drop off in space somewhere? This is a species based on rapid evolution what happened to the 40+ options on my Fex??? Even if 50% of the options were scrap most lists were extremely varied (not 4th edition in third this was more common too many nidzillain 4th) and now fifth, looks like their trying to turn the nids into none evolutionary, random hero bugs (doom in particular) elite lists when their supposed to be evolving hordes.
> In short
> -Nids have become marines with very little to no upgrades per unit, unlike their evolutionary fluff and previous codexes
> - The nid heroes are awesome but seem kinda stupid and backwards to me, the hive ships spawn them, the mind couldnt it say "hmmm that doom sure rocks ass.. lets pump out a bakers dozen and see how they roll O WAIT I CANT! COOTIES!"
> ...


Yeh, the 4th ed Fexes and Tyrants were good considering all of the options, but there was only 1 competitive build, and that was 8 MC's with lots of dakka, and outflanking stealers.
At least the new codex has lots of viable builds in it, and a lot more units to choose from. But yeh, the lack of customization is a little disappointing. They did the same thing to Chaos in 4th ed though. I really miss the 3.5 ed Chaos dex and the 4th ed Nid dex.:cray:


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

BroodingLord said:


> The new tyranids. I don't like the direction their taking them... Did the nids evolutionary balls drop off in space somewhere? This is a species based on rapid evolution what happened to the 40+ options on my Fex??? Even if 50% of the options were scrap most lists were extremely varied (not 4th edition in third this was more common too many nidzillain 4th) and now fifth, looks like their trying to turn the nids into none evolutionary, random hero bugs (doom in particular) elite lists when their supposed to be evolving hordes.
> In short
> -Nids have become marines with very little to no upgrades per unit, unlike their evolutionary fluff and previous codexes
> - The nid heroes are awesome but seem kinda stupid and backwards to me, the hive ships spawn them, the mind couldnt it say "hmmm that doom sure rocks ass.. lets pump out a bakers dozen and see how they roll O WAIT I CANT! COOTIES!"
> ...


They maybe realised its all about herohammer xD, but honestly i didnt like the previous dex because the only dangerous nid army was a bunch of fexes with big guns, atleast swarm armies are actualy viable now.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The new nids are actually pretty F'ing amazing. I took out a Seer Council, Wraithlord, and a unit of Dire Avengers in 3 rounds of a single combat with 10 Genestealers with Scything Talons and Adrenal Glands that got the charge. 190pt of nids managed to make their points back in a very bloody way, and they are now troops! With all the deep striking, infiltrating and outflanking that the new nids can do it really makes sense to invest in the more expensive units now.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I think the nids were getting back to roots of the smaller guys do smaller things if they need to destroy big things the hive pumps out the bigs guys instead of having that one unit everyone uses for everything making lists as said before more varied


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Agreed, will enjoy feeding hormies to IG front lines while the bigger bugs take out their tanks. Tyranid Warriors own SM in CC, even shooty ones. I have not had a huge amount of problems from people IDing multi-wound models, it happens, but not a lot. All-in-all it is a more balanced army than before, although in need of an FAQ to stop all the arguing.

EDIT: regarding the Wraithguard. In a legal list, and on a 6x4 standard board, there is not going to be much that can stop 90 Wraithguard at all. You are not think about the real application of units. How many S8 shots are there really in a singe legal FOC of any other army? Comparing like with like, nothing can do it. 12" range is no problem, with that many Wraithlords in play there won't be any part of the battlefield outside effective range by turn 3.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

You can bet that my typical Eldar list at 4k would include around 40 S 8 guns. 

I WILL have:

30 Fire Dragons

5 Wave Serpents (unfortunately that's all I have, or more would be added)

3 Fire Prisms

I WILL have better CC components in my 2 Seer Councils on bikes.

Troops could be whatever to fill points.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

I like the Deathwing, but what bugs the hell outta me is the fact that there Termies cant take Drop Pods as dedicated, it bugs me since i refuse to Deepstrike since it leaves my Termies exposed, forcing me to take a LR/LRC to get anywhere with my CC Termies.


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## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

I was thinking the same... My DA army I love, but they are sitting on the shelf until they get a 5th ed. FAQ or new codex which won't happen for a while. 4th ed DA can not compete with newer 5th ed armies. You have to drop too many points into the bikes in order to make sure you have some around come turn 2 to get the rest of your termies in. Too little numbers that just get chewed by mech armies.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed, i love my Deathwing, i think they are brilliant especially CC. So when i put a DW CC Termie Heavy list up on here the response is generaly the same: Use Ravenwing for the homers or just stick them in a LR/LRC. Things would be so much better if i could take some damned Drop Pods, then i might actualy consider removing a squad of CC termies for a heavy weapon termie squad instead since i can quickly garuntee getting my CC termies in to slice and dice 

But i cant see them getting Pods for awhile..............  *sigh*


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