# CSM: New Divination opportunities



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

So, assuming the information we have about the Crimson Slaughter codex is true (and it seems to be), at bare minimum, one CSM:CS Sorc will have access to Divination. Presumably, we can buy ML 3 and roll all of them in Divination with an unmarked Sorc.

I believe that this one option has made our opportunities to transport units of 20+ models more worthwhile. 

I'm really excited about Sorc(s) having access to Divination, because it opens up a lot of opportunities that an allied Tzherald isn't capable of.

For one, the Divination Sorc can actually join a CSM unit.

Here are some musings I've been mulling over this morning:

Prescience: Doesn't take much imagination. Re-roll hits on anything you want. 

Forewarning: Sweet! Suddenly huge chunks of that unit of 35 Cultists aren't disappearing quite so fast.

Foreboding: Oh my GODS I'm excited about this one! Attach the Sorc to a unit of 20 CSM with 2 Flamers + CCW and dare anyone to charge you. DARE THEM, I SAY! Replace the Flamers with Plasma if something tough is doing the charging. Meltas for walkers.

A unit of 30 Cultists with autoguns and 3 flamers would also be pretty fun, but they'd miss a bunch of shots and S3 wouldn't cause too many wounds, but... that's still a ton of dice, which are always suspenseful to roll.

Or, fuck, think about Havocs or Chosen. 4 autocannons, 4+ plasma, 4+ meltas... "Hello, Imperial Dick-Knight, you wanna use that strength D chainsword? Eat heat! Oh... I rolled 4 1s... damnit!"

Misfortune: Cool, whatever. Re-roll those saves, sucker. This could be very fun, especially on large units.

Perfect Timing: YES. FUCK YOU, TAU! Cover-ignoring autocannons from Havocs + Quad Gun if used defensively. Or shit, 4 Lascannons that are guaranteed to fuck up a vehicle with no interference from intervening models or cover. Attached to that unit of 20 CSM rapid-firing bolters/plasma, you're gonna clear mid-field objectives pretty handily if you can pull off the proper range/position. 

Really, there have got to be other very useful ways of using this power. Obliterators!

Precognition: Anything that makes the Sorc more survivable and effective in combat is a good thing. It's not Iron Arm or Warp Speed, but those re-rolls to wound are crucial with a Force Weapon and a relatively low number of attacks, I'd think. If you're facing a foe with equal Initiative, re-rolling saves is awesome, too. Especially since that 4+ Sigil of Corruption save always seems to fail...

Scrier's Gaze: I really like the sound of being able to have more control over when my Heldrakes fly onto the board. 


Then, you can STILL ally in a Daemon army with a Tzherald for another Divination psyker (at least prescience) + Grimoire of True Names. Now, we too have the ability to give the Daemons in our army a 2+ Invulnerable save, if you're lucky enough to roll Forewarning. Suddenly, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is an even bigger rape-machine than before, and doesn't have to worry about only being Toughness 5 and getting insta-killed by Power Fists and DCCW. You don't get the Black Mace, but there's got to be a suitable weapon (there better be...) to arm a DP with from the CS list of artifacts. Worried about your Heldrake getting shot down by enemy aircraft? No rerolls, but 2+ Invuln is juuuuust fine. A unit of 20 scoring Possessed with a 2+ sounds very nice, too. 


What crazy stuff can you guys think of that you'll be able to do now with this new option?


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

The only question is can you use these rules for CSM armies other than Crimson Slaughter?


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Er, I would expect not. 

If I understand how these things work, Black Legion is a separate CSM army than a standard codex CSM army, but they use units from the same base codex, with a different set of artifacts and a smattering of unique rules. They're Battle Bros with each other and Daemons. Probably the same story with Crimson Slaughter.


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

It makes sense that CSM should get divination. The sorcs from Prospero had a sect that delved into divination called the Corvidae. For some unknown reason we don't have those psychic powers currently. Perhaps they all died out when Prospero was burning.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, but we get PYROMANCY instead! :grin: :angel: :crazy:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Ally in crimson slaughter and boom divination. Hell if they are still battle brothers then the sorc can jion any unit in your core force


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Jeez, move over Grey Knights the new bad boys are in town. I better hope I don't have to play CCSM anytime soon. Wonder how they would size up against my wierdboyz?


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

venomlust said:


> So, assuming the information we have about the Crimson Slaughter codex is true (and it seems to be), at bare minimum, one CSM:CS Sorc will have access to Divination. Presumably, we can buy ML 3 and roll all of them in Divination with an unmarked Sorc.
> 
> I believe that this one option has made our opportunities to transport units of 20+ models more worthwhile.
> 
> ...


Just admit it, you were tiping left handed due to "boner management":grin:
'Cause i'm doing it right now at the mere idea of native chaos divination...


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

neferhet said:


> Just admit it, you were tiping left handed due to "boner management":grin:
> 'Cause i'm doing it right now at the mere idea of native chaos divination...


Hahaha it's true! I can't deny it!


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

mmh a divination sorc inside a unit is good no doubts but 25pts is not really cheap and if it's just for 1 psyker in the army you cant really plan on getting the power you want.
There are only 2powers that only apply to the psyker unit and only one is very good but only in a unit with ranged, low ap weapons...hardly something you can plan on useing imo.

What I mean is that those 25pts you pay only make a difference instead of an allied tzherald if you roll the ignore cover power and put him with something like lascannon havocs or oblits, it's good but I'm not sure it's 25 pts good tbh, unless if you dont bring daemon allies obviously, in that case it's just fantastic


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, I wish I could disagree. I think Divination should simply be available for all CS psykers to roll on, but it doesn't appear that's the case based on the rumors. Won't be much longer until we know for sure, but Chaos rules are always... "funny" to say the least, so I bet it will be 1 per army with a 25 point tax. 

I'll still pay that tax, but maybe once in a while poor little baby CSM can get something new that's good without being taxed for it in points beyond the base cost of the unit. Be'lakor you say? Cypher? Shhhh, I only use details that support my whining!

Having 1 Psyker with Divination may not be the end-all, but it's better than 0! I usually include Be'lakor as an HQ in my armies, so Telepathy is covered. No matter what powers I roll with a Divination Sorc, he's probably going to end up with a squad of Cultists, Havocs, Obliterators, or CSM. I'll always have at least 2 of those in an army, so he can be placed appropriately. Though, if I'm taking my Juggerlord, I'd have to choose between the two psykers, and although Be'lakor is double the points cost of a level 3 Sorc with all the trimmings, he's far more reliable and survivable. I'll use a Divination Sorc somehow, damnit! I spent 54 bucks on the Crimson Slaughter codex, I'm gonna get SOME use out of it!

I did write a list, assuming 25 point cost and only 1 Divination Sorc. Allied with Daemons: Quick Disclaimer: It may appear as though I'm trying to run a Screamerstar, but that wasn't the point of this list. I'd rather buff other elements of my army than have the stupid Tzheralds/Screamers do all the killing. That might be the way to win, but not my preference. I'd probably roll lots of perils and screw it up anyway. Nah, I prefer my cheese dragon-flavored.

2498 points

HQ: CSM:

Be'lakor
Sorcerer: Mastery Level 3, Divination Relic, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Force Maul

HQ: Daemons:

Tzherald: Mastery Level 3, Disc of Tzeentch
Tzherald: Mastery Level 3, Disc of Tzeentch, Exalted Reward (Grimoire)

TROOPS: CSM:

Cultists x20
Cultists x20
Cultists x10
Chaos Space Marines x20: 2x Plasma Gun

TROOPS: Daemons:

Daemonettes x20
Pink Horrors x10

FAST ATTACK: CSM:

Heldrake w/ Baleflamer
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer

FAST ATTACK: Daemons:

Screamers x6

HEAVY SUPPORT: CSM:

Havocs x5: 4 Autocannons
Obliterators x3: Mark of Nurgle

FORTIFICATIONS:

Aegis Defense Line: Comms Relay


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't think it's a very good change in terms of the game (because all Imperials, CSM, Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau all either have Divination natively or have very easy access to it, leaving just Orks, Necrons and Tyranids left out), but it's certainly a very powerful tool for Chaos. The Forewarning/Mark of Tzeentch combo is stupidly good on Obliterators and Mark of Tzeentch in general gets far more powerful as you can get 12 rolls on Divination at 2000pts from your Primary Detachments alone. That's fairly reasonable odds of getting Forewarning at least twice, so you can build around the Mark of Tzeentch knowing that you're pretty likely to be rocking a 3++. 

Pretty much all the powers in Divination are good, and Chaos get a lot of use out of the otherwise-shitty Precognition on a Daemon Prince. I can see a 3++ re-rollable Prince being a thing - the extra Warptime is just icing on the cake. Chaos also get more use out of Prescience due to their low-accuracy, high-damage options such as the Forgefiend. Forgefiends with Ectoplasma may well be a thing if you can twin-link them to neutralise Gets Hot! and the Hades Autocannon gets a significant boost in efficiency from Prescience.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Anyone upset that the masters of all sorcery, Thousand Nones, now suck in psychic power compared to Black Legion (Mastery level 3 super artifact bomb) and Crimson Slaughter (Fake Corviade)?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Assuming this is true (I'm not getting excited till the book is in my hand) I'm even finally going to paint my sorcerer.

I'm going to make myself a demon engine army at 2k including
Helbrute
Decimator
Forgefiend
Defiler
Heldrake
Heldrake
3 Oblits for the sorc to lead.

And some oblits as a sorceror bodyguard.
Prescience will make a massive difference to my forgefiend.
Perfect timing makes my defiler lethal.
Scriers gaze will make heldrakes arrive on time

I can't remember if walkers get overwatch - if they do, forewarning could be useful.
A 4++ is always useful.

Misfortune will be good when things get into range.

The only thing that won't be fun in that army is is the sorceror gets buffs in cc.

It'll be a dumb army, but it'll look awesome on the table


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

@Gret79 - just bear in mind that Perfect Timing and the Overwatch one only affect the Psyker and his unit, and precognition is only the Psyker. No Ignores Cover Battle Cannons or accurately Overwatching Forgefiends, I'm afraid.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

You do have a great point regarding Forgefiends, Midnight.

Prescience to reroll hits, Daemonforge to reroll wounds/armor penetration. Not bad at all.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> @Gret79 - just bear in mind that Perfect Timing and the Overwatch one only affect the Psyker and his unit, and precognition is only the Psyker. No Ignores Cover Battle Cannons or accurately Overwatching Forgefiends, I'm afraid.


Cheers - Perfect timing will work better on oblits then and forwarning goes to the 'swap for prescience' pile with precognition 

Ethusiasm>reading skills/ :laugh:

EDIT:Enthusiasm>Writing skills today too...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Cheers - Perfect timing will work better on oblits then and forwarning goes to the 'swap for prescience' pile with precognition
> 
> Ethusiasm>reading skills :laugh:


Dude, Precognition Prince with Grimoire.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

It's too bad we can't do it with a Black Mace/Last Memory DP.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Dude, Precognition Prince with Grimoire.


I was thinking of a csm sorceror.

Wouldn't having to have a mark get in the way of taking divination powers
Precog Prince with Grimoire + Forewarning? is that do-able? (no books to hand)


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I guess it depends on whether or not the wording of the rumor is deliberate or an oversight.

The guy who "read through the codex" says that Sorcerers can take the artifact granting access to Divination. If that's true (it would be *really* stupid if a DP couldn't, though). 

The necessity of taking a mark would definitely interfere with rolling Divination powers on a DP. If you did get Forewarning, and had an allied detachment of Daemons with the Grimoire, it should work just fine.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You'd have to bring in the Grimoire from a Herald or whatever from Allies, a CSM Prince can't bring it.

I don't think losing the Black Mace is a big problem. Just how dead do you need your enemy to be? With Precognition, you're WS8 Str6 with rerolls to hit and wound. The Black Mace helps you kill Wraithknights, and that's pretty much it (yeah, Riptides and other MCs would be vaporised by the Mace but you have a 3++ re-rollable).

If it's an artifact that gives Divination, presumably that only applies to one model and therefore is not as insanely good as I thought, and probably not even a particularly powerful choice unless it's very cheap.

Having to bring a Mark does indeed suck, but the Slaanesh lore is pretty good, so it's not a horrendous downside.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Fair enough about the loss of the Black Mace. Not the end of the world, although my Daemon Princes do prefer their opponents in juice form with medium pulp. Makes them easy to drink and you still get some fiber.

I really hope every artifact is viable. Although they're expensive, the Black Legion artifacts are good. Base CSM codex artifacts? Not so much. Other than the axe and mace, I have yet to use one in a game.

Regarding the Divination thing, at the very least, 25 points for Prescience. Extra cost is sucky, but could make a difference.

*edit*

In response to the suckiness of the psychic abilities of Thousand Sons... yeah. Ahriman himself is pretty cool, but the cult units are pretty underwhelming.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> I really hope every artifact is viable. Although they're expensive, the Black Legion artifacts are good. Base CSM codex artifacts? Not so much. Other than the axe and mace, I have yet to use one in a game.


Agreed, although isn't there a 75pt 1-attack-only Power Fist thing in Black Legion? That seems kind of bad considering you'll miss a not-insignificant amount of the time.



venomlust said:


> Regarding the Divination thing, at the very least, 25 points for Prescience. Extra cost is sucky, but could make a difference.


25pts extra is driving Sorcerors up to really quite pricy for a 2-wound support character, but I guess that's what you gotta do to get such a powerful ability.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeaaaah the black hand thing. That one is sucky.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Pimp Hand of Darkness.

When it hits a bitch, it hits the bitch.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The pimp hand of darkness is 50pts. The eye of night is 75pts


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

That's the one that poops out more Str10 blasts than a Kustom Stompa, right?


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> That's the one that poops out more Str10 blasts than a Kustom Stompa, right?


One template with d3 pen hits and ignores cover, one use.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hand of darkness is ok on a tzeentch lord as he will get the chance to use it. Same goes with a nurgle biker lord. Just go piss of a carnifex or a riptide and hold it in CC till you can one shot it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> One template with d3 pen hits and ignores cover, one use.


Welp, that's... not awful.



LukeValantine said:


> Hand of darkness is ok on a tzeentch lord as he will get the chance to use it. Same goes with a nurgle biker lord. Just go piss of a carnifex or a riptide and hold it in CC till you can one shot it.


Eh, he can still miss with it and getting there can be a problem; and a 3++ is far from invulnerable (you know what I mean, damnit) - you can still be Smashed by some dudes or simply shot down before you get there, because you're a pretty huge target and there's a fair probability that you're worth a victory point or two.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Er I didn't describe it very well: It's a large blast, and inflicts d3 pens on any vehicles/buildings/fortifications. Doesn't make it any better, but I figured it deserved an accurate description.

Seeing as how it's 1 use only, I think the stupid thing shouldn't scatter. Or maybe just d6". Oh well. Prime candidate for Prescience, right there .


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> Er I didn't describe it very well: It's a large blast, and inflicts d3 pens on any vehicles/buildings/fortifications. Doesn't make it any better, but I figured it deserved an accurate description.
> 
> Seeing as how it's 1 use only, I think the stupid thing shouldn't scatter. Or maybe just d6". Oh well. Prime candidate for Prescience, right there .


It's ok, I knew it was a Large Blast. It's not *awful* if you have an opponent who regularly brings a Fortress of Redemption or loves him some Land Raider Crusaders with the Standard of Devastation, but it's a little too niche and expensive to be really good. And, as you say, the thing can whiff completely at the whim of the scatter :victory:

I'd quite like to see a Relic doing something about how sub-standard a choice Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths are. I imagine they'll come later in a different supplement if they come at all though, so nothing doing there (although Dark Apostles are kinda Possessed-related, being the ones who know all the possession rites? So maybe in Crimson Slaughter).


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

For a laugh, I made a lord with the hand of darkness, skull of kerngar, sigil of corruption and the spineshiver blade. It cost about 200+ points but I'd got a 3+/4++ eternal warrior, initiative 7 from the quicksilver blade (which is a permanent buff as it just states 'the bearer of the shineshard blade has +1 initiative in close combat) with a chance of instant death.
It was costly but fun.

I laughed when I realised the +1 initiative rule calls the sword the wrong name....


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> For a laugh, I made a lord with the hand of darkness, skull of kerngar, sigil of corruption and the spineshiver blade. It cost about 200+ points but I'd got a 3+/4++ eternal warrior, initiative 7 from the quicksilver blade (which is a permanent buff as it just states 'the bearer of the shineshard blade has +1 initiative in close combat) with a chance of instant death.
> It was costly but fun.
> 
> I laughed when I realised the +1 initiative rule calls the sword the wrong name....


Spineshitter Blade?


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

mmh a divination prince with allied grimoire is...stupid...that's a t5 lord of change right?

I'd say take it on a sorc if you run pure csm or ally with ig, crons or orks, leave the relic at home if you play with daemons...


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Eh, he can still miss with it and getting there can be a problem; and a 3++ is far from invulnerable (you know what I mean, damnit) - you can still be Smashed by some dudes or simply shot down before you get there, because you're a pretty huge target and there's a fair probability that you're worth a victory point or two.


Actually as neither is a IC they can't challenge so you can still take your look out sir. Meaning you have have to get hit then you have to fail a 2+ look out sire then a 3++ inv save. Now if you are caught by somkething that can challenge then your chances are a lot worse, but you can always hope that you have 5-10 unengaged models to give a reroll on that 3++.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

paolodistruggiuova said:


> mmh a divination prince with allied grimoire is...stupid...that's a t5 lord of change right?
> 
> I'd say take it on a sorc if you run pure csm or ally with ig, crons or orks, leave the relic at home if you play with daemons...


But with a 3+ armour and silly combat stats. 

I think you can do a fairly convincing Divination saturation with Daemons and CSM, especially as Chaos benefit so much from so many of the Divination powers.



LukeValantine said:


> Actually as neither is a IC they can't challenge so you can still take your look out sir. Meaning you have have to get hit then you have to fail a 2+ look out sire then a 3++ inv save. Now if you are caught by somkething that can challenge then your chances are a lot worse, but you can always hope that you have 5-10 unengaged models to give a reroll on that 3++.


That's a good point, but I'm not sure you need the Hand of Darkness to kill a Riptide or Wraithknight if you're engaging them with a Chaos Lord with retinue of, I'd guess, Spawn or Bikes. You'd probably be better off with the much cheaper Axe of Blind Fury and plain weight of attacks. Riptides and Wraithknights are functional in CC by dint of their MC status, but thry're still not combat units.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

So to update this little topic: the relic is limited to Sorcerers, costs 25 and combines the Familiar upgrade with access to Divination (so basically Divination actually costs you 10 points) for the loss of any bonuses for being a Psyker to your Deny the Witch rolls by that Sorcerer or the unit he's with.

I love this item honestly, it just sounds awesome and looks like it'd be fun to use.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Zion said:


> So to update this little topic: the relic is limited to Sorcerers, costs 25 and combines the Familiar upgrade with access to Divination (so basically Divination actually costs you 10 points) for the loss of any bonuses for being a Psyker to your Deny the Witch rolls by that Sorcerer or the unit he's with.
> 
> I love this item honestly, it just sounds awesome and looks like it'd be fun to use.


After buying/reading the Codex, I think a ML3 Divination Sorc and Fearless Bubble Dark Apostle make a very nice gunline/defensive HQ choice. The huge horde of Cultists will be Fearless, as will the Havocs joined to the Sorcerer if they're within proper range. Can bubble wrap the hell out of anything you want with 2+ squads of 20+ Fearless Cultists :grin:. The close proximity also allows the Sorc to jump to any squad being assaulted, if you happen to roll the [email protected] full BS power.

Still requires an assault element to deal with the inevitable pie plates, but that's what Maulerfiends/Spawn/Heldrakes are for.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I don't like the Dark Apostle relic because it's 30 points for something that adds 1 rule to the Power Maul he already has. 15 points would have been fine, but 30 to replace a weapon he has that is similar? Nope.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Fearless as a bubble effect is pretty damn useful as you can Go to Ground with no penalty if you're between 6" and 12" of a Dark Apostle, as his aura means you automatically stand up in your turn. Standing behind an Aegis Line and have the Apostle stand 7" away could be pretty sweet for Havocs or whatever, and Obliterators really like it as Ld8 is actually one of their big downsides.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah it is expensive, but at least it isn't Black Legion expensive!

As Midnight points out, its benefit can extend to many units with poor Leadership. I feel like our gunlines have improved quite a bit with this supplement. I don't _only_ want to play gunlines, but I've got the minis to run it as an option.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Zion said:


> So to update this little topic: the relic is limited to Sorcerers, costs 25 and combines the Familiar upgrade with access to Divination (so basically Divination actually costs you 10 points) for the loss of any bonuses for being a Psyker to your Deny the Witch rolls by that Sorcerer or the unit he's with.
> 
> I love this item honestly, it just sounds awesome and looks like it'd be fun to use.


I think I'll be allying in Crimson Slaughter in a bunch of games exclusively for this item. I sure as hell don't want an army of Possessed, Helbrutes, and Defilers--next you'll be telling me that their fluff features Mutilators heavily too--but a Sorc leading some Havocs, along with a 50 point Cultist entourage? Perhaps a unit of Plasma-toting Chosen with Preferred Enemy (and/or a Heldrake if I want to cheese out the force org slots)? I can dig it...

Edit: I suppose I... would not be opposed to fielding a Juggerlord with the Blade of the Relentless and Daemonheart relics, either. Perhaps I might consider a Primary Detachment of Crimson Slaughterers, with Divin-Sorc and JuggerRelentessHeart. Take non-daemon units to take advantage of the Fear bit, use the marginally better Warlord Traits... (on average better, though nothing can match Master of Deception)

Damn it. It's winning me over.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> I think I'll be allying in Crimson Slaughter in a bunch of games exclusively for this item. I sure as hell don't want an army of Possessed, Helbrutes, and Defilers--next you'll be telling me that their fluff features Mutilators heavily too--but a Sorc leading some Havocs, along with a 50 point Cultist entourage? Perhaps a unit of Plasma-toting Chosen with Preferred Enemy (and/or a Heldrake if I want to cheese out the force org slots)? I can dig it...


Reading through their supplement last night, no not idea not feature Mutilators heavily. Possession is a side-effect of their curse (when the carnage reaches it's peak you get a lot of possessed Marines running around), but other than that the main things I saw referenced were Cultists, Forgefiends and Lord of Skulls. Everything else (Warp Smiths, Dark Apostles, ect) all only get a passing mention at most while those get mentioned more than once.

EDIT: Juggerlord looks awesome. I just have no idea what to run him with effectively.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Spaaaawn! Or Bikers. A Juggerlord + Divination Sorc biker for Prescience could be cool. Mastery Level 3, 1 point in Divination for Prescience, 2 points in Telepathy hoping for Invisible but settling for anything. The bikers at least have a champion that can eat the challenge, but with Spawn you could just peel the Sorc away from the unit so he doesn't have to get killed. I think he'd be too valuable to waste in a challenge that the Juggerlord is _probably_ going to win.

I really like Crimson Slaughter because I can ally in my Juggerlord with his Axe of Blind Fury, his Spawn retinue, and a unit of cannon fodder Cultists who won't benefit from the Crimson Slaughter artifact.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Spaaaawn!


Fair enough.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Spawn, or Khorne Bikers with IoW for the all-glorious charge reroll.

Just make a different character your Warlord, since if you roll the one that gives him Rage and Furious Charge... well...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> Spawn, or Khorne Bikers with IoW for the all-glorious charge reroll.
> 
> Just make a different character your Warlord, since if you roll the one that gives him Rage and Furious Charge... well...


Div Sorc Warlord? Well that or Be'Lakor, but then you need to ally to get Divination.

EDIT: I just realized that the Bikes go slower when paired with the Lord which is a bit of a trade off I guess.

Double EDIT: Be'Lakor could be hilarious by casting Invisibility on the Lord and his unit over and over as it rampages around the board...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Zion said:


> Div Sorc Warlord? Well that or Be'Lakor, but then you need to ally to get Divination.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized that the Bikes go slower when paired with the Lord which is a bit of a trade off I guess.


Yeah, there's no ruling on how to make running and going flat out work together. My FLGSes tend to go for the ruling that the Lord rolls his run distance but the bikes can go Flat Out as normal, so the bikes tend to zip ahead, using their long bases to string out until they reach the Lord. It still takes 2 or 3 turns for him to really fall behind, which given the fact that you should be charging T2, isn't much of an issue. In fact, it's often worked to my advantage when charging squishier squads--my Lord sometimes doesn't manage to get into combat even with the charge roll and the 3" pile in, meaning that the enemy are less likely to be splattered and run away, but the Lord can pile in by the enemy assault phase and mop up shop.

Also bear in mind that if your Lord doesn't take advantage of hanging back to get behind another of your units or some cover, a canny opponent could focus fire your no-cover Juggerlord since the bikes have jink. By the same coin, you can LOS! the shots off on 2+, but... the danger exists. So just wrap the squad around a Rhino or something, with your Lord behind the Rhino and the bikers stretching out ahead.

But we're getting a bit far afield from Divination options. I've always been a fan of Presciencing Forgefiends... *drools*


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Zion said:


> Div Sorc Warlord? Well that or Be'Lakor, but then you need to ally to get Divination.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized that the Bikes go slower when paired with the Lord which is a bit of a trade off I guess.


Yeah, it's true. Turbo-boosting is very nice. I think a Crimson Slaughter close combat Lord would do very well on a Bike and loaded with artifacts.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> But we're getting a bit far afield from Divination options. I've always been a fan of Presciencing Forgefiends... *drools*


I just built a Plasma Forgefiend, so that'd make it extra fun!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Yeah, it's true. Turbo-boosting is very nice. I think a Crimson Slaughter close combat Lord would do very well on a Bike and loaded with artifacts.


The bike isn't a bad option either, I just really like the Juggerlord (Lord of the Juggers!) idea. Mostly because it's really nasty. But the bike would be my second choice for sure.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

No doubt, that's my preference as well. I also proxy Juggernauts as Spawn, so he's running with a herd k:.

Prescience on Plasma Forgefiends sounds awesome. I have yet to run them with Ectoplasma due to the reduced range.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

venomlust said:


> No doubt, that's my preference as well. I also proxy Juggernauts as Spawn, so he's running with a herd k:.


Oh that is a neat idea!



venomlust said:


> Prescience on Plasma Forgefiends sounds awesome. I have yet to run them with Ectoplasma due to the reduced range.


I mostly built it that way because of how awesome the Crimson Slaughter one looks....

EDIT: In the end I may end up going more with Possessed Vindis, or a heavy smattering of Oblits for my Heavy Support (Oblits wouldn't mind Prescience either, especially when firing Lascannons or Plasmacannons).


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Now that you mention the idea of a Crimson Slaughter Juggerlord, it really isn't so bad.

Daemonheart for a 2+ IWND is obviously awesome. No reason not to take it, other than the points cost in low point games.

I think that in some situations the Blade of the Relentless might actually be a very nice substitute for the Axe of Blind Fury. With the axe, so often the Juggerlord wipes the enemy unit out in a single turn, leaving his unit exposed to shooting before the rest of the army is in assault range. After a few kills he's getting AP2 anyway. Food for thought, at least.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I am thinking that this could be used as a counts as thousand sons allied detachment....Yeah, hear me out: 
Possessed to represent those thousand sons that were twisted by the warp mutations prior to the rubric, with a lvl 3 div sorc leading them. Seems legit. Also, thousand sons who actually have access to div...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

venomlust said:


> Now that you mention the idea of a Crimson Slaughter Juggerlord, it really isn't so bad.
> 
> Daemonheart for a 2+ IWND is obviously awesome. No reason not to take it, other than the points cost in low point games.
> 
> I think that in some situations the Blade of the Relentless might actually be a very nice substitute for the Axe of Blind Fury. With the axe, so often the Juggerlord wipes the enemy unit out in a single turn, leaving his unit exposed to shooting before the rest of the army is in assault range. After a few kills he's getting AP2 anyway. Food for thought, at least.


That Sword gets really good pretty quick when buried in a decent unit of chaff too. Challenging may keep the Lord buried in for an extra turn (since the Spawn can't accept or challenge that is). The problem I see is that some units will break and run and then die regardless.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I am thinking that this could be used as a counts as thousand sons allied detachment....Yeah, hear me out:
> Possessed to represent those thousand sons that were twisted by the warp mutations prior to the rubric, with a lvl 3 div sorc leading them. Seems legit. Also, thousand sons who actually have access to div...


I quite like it. As a side benefit, they all cause Fear too! Ahriman and a Div Sorc--nice.



Zion said:


> That Sword gets really good pretty quick when buried in a decent unit of chaff too. Challenging may keep the Lord buried in for an extra turn (since the Spawn can't accept or challenge that is). The problem I see is that some units will break and run and then die regardless.


Another possible problem: when I play against Tau, the enemy player tends to shield the bulk of their army with Riptides, meaning that the first unit I get into combat with may well have that all-important 2+ armor before I get 3 kills. And any canny opponent with 2+ of any sort will make tying up the Lord their #1 priority...

Food for thought.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> Another possible problem: when I play against Tau, the enemy player tends to shield the bulk of their army with Riptides, meaning that the first unit I get into combat with may well have that all-important 2+ armor before I get 3 kills. And any canny opponent with 2+ of any sort will make tying up the Lord their #1 priority...
> 
> Food for thought.


And that's why you bring AP2/AP1 weapons. Riptides can't live through that forever. Also shield drones just mean more wounds to allocate onto the unit if you hit them with Plasmacannons. Food for thought. 

A little more seriously though, I've never really been a big fan of people who bring 2-3 of a unit like Riptides or Wraithknights. The kind of player who does that is telling me that only their enjoyment of the game matters, my time I'm committing to it be damned.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> I quite like it. As a side benefit, they all cause Fear too! Ahriman and a Div Sorc--nice.


Ahriman and his latest apprentice. Or take them as primary and have x2 Sorcs with Div and Tzeentch demon allies with Lord of Change. Or Belakor.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Or take them as primary and have x2 Sorcs with Div and Tzeentch demon allies with Lord of Change. Or Belakor.


Noooope. Only one Balestar--relics are unique. No 2x Div Sorcs.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Ahriman and his apprentice it is then


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