# Great weapons, worth it?



## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

I've always seen great weapons as bitter sweet. +2S which is awesome but always strikes last, it seems a bit unbalanced to me. Ok they are good for cheap characters who you take just for the improved Ld likea empire captain at low points games but other than that I see little point in taking them. Am I on my own with this?


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

As with most things in Warhammer its all about the charge, or being High Elf. I tend to find them useful and often took Executioners just to throw at pesky high armoured Dwarf units. When I had my Empire army I nearly always took Greatswords as well, so I must be some kinda fan of them.

Oh and I still think they are a good cheap way of making a Character hit harder if you go for defensive magic items, or none at all.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Marauders of Khorne + Great Weapons = More Bang for your Buck.

Literally, they can rip through anything, and for 25 (!) at just over 170 points, with Full Command, you're looking at something that most elite infantry are scared off.

And Executioners are better than Swordmasters, Druchii, although they require a Magic Standard to become that. And nonononono on Tullaris. Although he is agorgeous idea, 1 wound just isn't going to do it for me. Not going tolose 100 odd points, because some snotty Knight Errant Champion charged the unit.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Moved to tactics - squeek

As Druchii says the charge is all important if your unit is equipped with great weapons. On the charge they are fantastic, otherwise not so much. Having said that assuming it isn't a whitewash those models hitting back are still doing some serious damage. There are also a number of units, Black Orcs being a good example, where they will have more than one weapon.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Partly it depends on your I value as well. For example Dwarves, M3 I2.....in no world are they attacking first. Why not attack at +2S when it costs you nothing. 

The marauder example is a really risky use of them. If this unit charges you, they will eat your face in. However if the unit is charged, T3 and no armor save will get mowed down.

GWs work best on either elite infantry that have the stats to back up their usage, or in smallish units that are functioning like Empire detachments and can hold out for a flank charge by hiding behind the tougher guys.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Chaos Warriors are a unit which is an awsome example of GW-goodie. Give em shields too and they can pick the best of two worlds.
If they get charged by something a bit dangerous then fall back on 2+ save
If you charge then prepare a huge can of whupp-ass with lots of S6 attacks 

Other examples on good GWunits are big guys like Ironguts, Minotaurs and the like. They have fairly high T and some wounds each meaning that you will most likely not lose one before you can strike back if you get charged, and if you charge you once again have a huge ammount of lethal attacks.

Units with fairly many attacks will naturally benefit more from increased S on their attacks, as will units whith high M values since they will get to charge more often.
With the nerf of mounted GW rules they have become a bit less mandatory on characters. 6th ed was GW heaven, now it might once again be worth getting magical weapons for heroes


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> Chaos Warriors are a unit which is an awsome example of GW-goodie. Give em shields too and they can pick the best of two worlds.
> If they get charged by something a bit dangerous then fall back on 2+ save
> If you charge then prepare a huge can of whupp-ass with lots of S6 attacks


I'm gonna disagree with this one. Chaos warriors are the unit that halberds were made for. I5 is a horrible thing to throw down the drain. Chaos warriors are more likely to be thrown up against enemy elite infantry that can actually cause some damage to them, however at I5 they will at the least be going simultaneously.


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## crimson skull (Aug 3, 2008)

I played dwarfs recently and had my arse handed to me because i didn't take any great weapons i too thought it was a waste, now i will take them all the time as Maiden maniac said hand weapon and shield on defense and strength 6 on the charge that makes all the difference, i also took my marauders with flails and quickly found strength 5 for one round isn't enough, so you strike last but strength 5 all the time what a difference they can be a serious threat to most units even heavy cavalry. I'm now a convert and love great weapons!k:


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## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

fpr high elves they are amazing, especially for swordmasters as they always strink first. It all depends on the tone of your army, if you have a more static army then their's no real point as you won't charge as often. If your going to run relentlessly forwards then go for it!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

crimson skull said:


> they can be a serious threat to most units even heavy cavalry.


Only if you charge Heavy Cavalry, and can break them/reduce their front ranks. Otherwise, they are a liability, for two reasons. Heavy Cavalry hit hard. Very hard.

There are 4 classes of heavy Cavalry nowadays.

You have your Fast, or Light Cavalry, which are susceptible to anything, and any shots against them aren't really wasted. Any Light Cavalry.

You have Medium Cavalry, who hit hard, and have have a medium armour save (3/4+). They need to have attention paid to them to damage, but you can afford to target elsewhere. Boar Riders, Shield and Light Armour Marauders etc.

Heavy Cavalry, these are the general troops, like Bretonnian Knights, Empire Knights, and pretty much any 1+ Save Knights. Hit very hard, and require anything up to a cannon to deal with them - can sometimes even take an entire unit of Ranged soldiers to even cause a wound.

Super Heavy Cavalry are the Creme de la Creme. These beasts have multiple attacks, high strength, above average toughness, and usually the ability to take a Magic Banner, or even the Champion to take Magic Items, which range from Weapons, to Enchanted Items, to enhance your units performance. These are mainly Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Dragon Princes, and Cold One Riders (both Elven and Saurisian).

Let's look at the last two. You charge them. Their armour (from a Str 6 blow) is reduced to 4, and you've wounded on a 2. Some Special Effects (Mark of Tzeentch, etc), gives them another chance to save the blow.

All in all, charging such Super Heavy Knights (who don't need to bother with the Charge) even with Great Weapons is not a good idea.

Point I'm making - Have flankers with Great Weapons. Have your holding units with a 2+ Armour Save - Hand Weapon, shield, and a 4+ Armour.


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## crimson skull (Aug 3, 2008)

Sorry i meant to put that i use my marauders with my warriors, when faced with a unit of warriors most enemies charge with something hard like heavy cavalry so with a 2+ save they stand a chance of taking the charge then i have a unit of marauders with great weapons now in position to flank the cavalry and hopefully kick the crap out of them.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Othiem said:


> I'm gonna disagree with this one. Chaos warriors are the unit that halberds were made for. I5 is a horrible thing to throw down the drain. Chaos warriors are more likely to be thrown up against enemy elite infantry that can actually cause some damage to them, however at I5 they will at the least be going simultaneously.


Well I guess its down to personal preferences. I prefer S6 -3 save on my attacks instead of S5 -2 save. This _will_ kill whatever I charge.
GWs will totally wtfpwn T4 enemies unlike halberds. Wounding on 2+ and fucking their save all over is imho worth it. If you kill the enemy propper the first turn of combat there aint another turn since he breaks, thats what im going for when I play


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## zabo (Dec 19, 2008)

It wont matter if you hit last If you get the charge off.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

well it all comes down to who you use and what you face. somethings the great weapon is the weapon of choice, that just makes total sense....for example big guys with low init and decent movement[iron guts] others will depend on the role you intend them to play. Great weapons are also best if your likely to face HIGH toughness models i.e. 5 or 6 as even getting 1 or 2 wounds off could mean breaking a dragon with your ranked unit


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It depends on the units role.

I'm not going to advocate 2 handed weapons for an Anvil unit, unless they can also have a shield - and if the Great Weapons are an option, they are one of the first places to look for in my army.

If you're looking for an attack unit (doesn't have to be a hammer unit even, although they are usually best for it), then Great weapons are the best, if you're sure you're going to beat them.

Also, if you know you're going to go last any case (vs High Elves, are Dwarves etc), then you lose nothing really by taking Great Weapons. However, the units role again does come into question.

Chaos Warriors vs. Elves may not have an advantage in Initiative, but whether they wound on an 2 or not is dependant on if they have Halberds or Great Weapons, so there's no benefit - only if they have a lot of Dragon Armour, or high toughness will the Great Weapons make a difference.

However, vs. other Chaos, having those Str 6 Chaos Warriors will rip through other Great Weapon/Halberd Chaos Warriors, Saurus no longer get saves, Dwarves are wounded as easily as an Elf in a Wheelchair... Etc.


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## Maximus (Mar 9, 2008)

While we are at it, are lances worth it? For example, my Chaos knights are able to take them for a handful of points apiece, but I do not think they are worth it, not if I have enchanted weapons giving me S5 (S6 with lances) and magical attacks.

Do not post points costs of individual items or models, it is against forum rules and GW IP - squeek


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Chaos Knights depends on your opponent. If you're fighting lots of Heavy Cavalry, then yes, where you need the charge to get that benefit over the T4 and 1+ AS.

However, if their role is unit killing and anvil unit hunters, then you will not break them on the charge (anvil are kind of meant for surviving a charge - General, BSB nearby, Hero in the unit somewhere, Full Ranks, Banners, outnumber, Magic Banner to give extra combat resolution, you can be looking at something like a 6+ Static Combat Resolution).

To overcome that, you need to do enough damage (6 wounds continuously) to ensure that you are able to kill them without retaliating. Khornate Knights with Exalted Champion (Axe of Khorne, mainly, but Chaos Runesword can do some more business) are the best, but when armed with Ensorcelled Weapons.

So - 

When used as a Heavy Cavalry Counter, or Flank Breakers, then Lances are the place to go.

When used as a Unit Breaker (10 Strong units in larger games), then Hero leading Ensorcelled Weapons are the best way to go.


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## davidg32 (Dec 19, 2008)

Do skaven have the option to take great weapons?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Not that I know of - Rat Ogres provide the muscle, while Stormvermin provide the elite infantry block. While this has no effect these days, due to the 0-1's being removed on all but Special Characters, the Stormvermin could be taken without Limit (provided the Clanrat total was high enough).

Still, having some WS4 Str 4 In 4 troops will make a dent in most Main Regiments, (like Marauders, Spearmen etc), and can swing with the big boys as well, due to their cheapness.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Bear in mind though that Skaven are due for an update so GWs may well be added then, who knows?


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## davidg32 (Dec 19, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Not that I know of - Rat Ogres provide the muscle, while Stormvermin provide the elite infantry block. While this has no effect these days, due to the 0-1's being removed on all but Special Characters, the Stormvermin could be taken without Limit (provided the Clanrat total was high enough).
> 
> Still, having some WS4 Str 4 In 4 troops will make a dent in most Main Regiments, (like Marauders, Spearmen etc), and can swing with the big boys as well, due to their cheapness.


Hmm thats an interesting idea. So basically with Skaven their strength lies in their numbers.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

davidg32 said:


> Hmm thats an interesting idea. So basically with Skaven their strength lies in their numbers.


Yea. Basically nowdays folks dont play Stormvermins at all, they are too expensive. You get 2 units of Clanrats for the same price IIRC which is better both ways


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

After numerous discussions both here and with my local club I will be taking gw's in my chaos army. The thing to remember is, in general, you aren't going to get a charge all that often with M4 troops so you might as well take the great weapons and hit back even harder. With chaos troops you have a unit that is able to take a ton of damage and still be able to hit back with a fair deal of force AND will most likely be on the receiving end of a charge and going last anyway. Hitting at S6 is far preferable to S4 in such a case (or most for that matter) as you will be causing a -3 modifier to armour saves and that is fuckin gold.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Chaos Warriors vs. Elves may not have an advantage in Initiative, but whether they wound on an 2 or not is dependant on if they have Halberds or Great Weapons, so there's no benefit - only if they have a lot of Dragon Armour, or high toughness will the Great Weapons make a difference.


I'd say going simultaneously vs going last is still an advantage. If you're only playing vs HEs, sure GWs all the way. Versus DEs, WEs, Skaven, and all the Demon units with I5, it's a shame of a stat to toss away.



> However, vs. other Chaos, having those Str 6 Chaos Warriors will rip through other Great Weapon/Halberd Chaos Warriors, Saurus no longer get saves, Dwarves are wounded as easily as an Elf in a Wheelchair... Etc.


Not 100% true. Those GW warriors will win on the charge, but so will the halberds. However in a sustained fight, the halberds will win the grind down. The game is filled with T3 5+ or worse save baddies that even Chaos Warriors will fall too. Do you really want to be attacking after Bloodletters or Blackguard, both units that have an advantage when trying to get the charge?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Othiem said:


> The game is filled with T3 5+ or worse save baddies that even Chaos Warriors will fall too. Do you really want to be attacking after Bloodletters or Blackguard, both units that have an advantage when trying to get the charge?


The thing is that your Warriors should always have shields too. They cost fuckloads of points so there is no reason not to spend 1 more point on them to have the option of 2+ save in CC and better save against missile weapons 

Against harder units, like Sauruses, Dwarf Warriors or similar t4 3+save units your halberds will fall short. Wounding on 3s and allowing 5+ save vs wounding on 2s and allowing 6s saves is a huge diffrence. The same will also hold tru against any cav. Giving 4+ or 5+ save is a huge diffrence too(from 2+). Yes then its alot harder tho to get to charge Cav but it does happen at times too

Personally I stick with the "there is no such kill as overkill" motto. If you kill the enemies propper first combat turn there aint another one, which means that the fact that you will strike last second+ round(s) is irrelevant:wink:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

How does an increase in Strength modifier of -1, change a 2+ save to a 4+? =P.

But yes, there are times when the Great Weapon is a better option than the Halberd - i.e, vs. High Elves, Corpse Cart heavy Vampire Counts (you think you can stop all their magic and 5 3+ Bound Spells do you, eh?), and the ever Nasty ASF Blackguard/Executioner (shudder).

I'm not saying Halberds are useless, far from it - against Other Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons, you're not going to enjoy striking at the same time as them, with their -3 to your Armour of 4+.

So while they get their 6+ Save, you're definately going to be thinking about the beauty of 11 attacks against their on average of 4 or 5 (if you didn't target the Champion, why not?), despite them having the easier choice.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes the wars definitely need shields, and you can pull off the halberd/shield combo cheaper than the GW/shield one. Sure it's only 18 points on a standard size unit, but it's the little things like that all over an army that add up quickly and put a serious dent in your model count. 

The kill them right the first time motto is great, but hard to pull off if you're a low model count army with M4; the odds are not in your favor. Also, like Vaz points out regarding Cav, if you're going up against a solid anvil unit, they will likely survive the first round anyways, so you can't always ignore subsequent rounds.

All I'm really trying to say is that both the GW and the halberd are viable options that perform differently against different units, and GWs are not the forgone conclusion that some people seem to think they are.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

personally i think the halberds are the more versatile option, if i were taking an allcomers army but would prob consider great weapons for countercharge units. if i were facing a specific army and knew what to face....maybe but i don't write armies that way in general.


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