# Literary uses of common themes.



## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

On occasion in BL than in other novel universes, I notice a tendency to at times pilfer almost wholesale from old treatises on war/strategy or the usage of character names which are obviously from some other media but slighty changed.

Like for eg renaming "The Art of War" by Sun T'zu into "The Warriors Craft" by Nova Zu'ken, then basically using quotes from the original and ascribing them to the words of the fictional character.


I know it saves time, but most people who are over 19 do pick up on it, and it is maddening, because it jars you out of the story, and the suspension of disbelief is utterly shattered.


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## Arkeoptrix (Oct 8, 2010)

I don't think I have too much of a problem with it. On one side, yeah it's plagiarism, on the other it's supposed to be a far future that may have been rooted in our current reality. It's not like the names, the ideas, the goals and whatnot are very original either. As long as the story is entertaining enough I get into it. I was never looking at the novels to be literary masterpieces.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I didn't say anything about literary masterpieces, I just need a story that is entertaining enough for me to suspend disbelief for a bit.

If you were watching a total popcorn summer actioner like Robocop and they named the bad guy D'arth Vaderada and he wore a black suit and had him use quotes from Star Wars, you would take immediate issue, because the writers are being lazy.

If they wanted a Darth Vaderesque villian, they could have him horribly burned and a cyborg, but have his injuries exposed, and chill with the blatant star wars references.

There are many ways to dress up influences, something every writer uses without nearly blatant photocopying.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Actually, any practicing literary professional (one of my long-past careers) will tell you there are only "X" number of basic plots (7? 21? -- I forget). 

And you can unearth them in the most unlikely places. Remember _First Blood_ (Rambo)? He goes into a tunnel or mine, then emerges and wins his battle against evil authority. The "journey into the underworld and rebirth" motif is a classic.

Certainly, I find MANY BL novels following certian basic patterns. One has a hero who battles daemons so aggressively and obsessively that he goes a little too far and becomes a bit of a heretic (a favorite of Abnett).


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Are we talking about the specific naming of things to reference their inspiration, or about themes of character and plot? The former can be irritating but has some justification, the latter I don't mind.

I don't mind it in 40K fiction as long as the story is well-serviced by it. I love these books, but we are talking about tie-in fiction for a game setting here. By that I don't mean we should entertain low standards - a bad book is a bad book, a good one is a good one - but we should be mindful of the requirements of BL and what it is realistic to expect. Simplistic themes are simpler to do when working within an established framework. Also, simplistic and repeated themes and characters do not make an author or a work bad; David Gemmell made about 4 plots and 6 characters into 30-odd books the very least of which is still an effective read.

If we're talking about transparent origins for names, there's three points I can think of worth considering.

1) Obvious names is an old tradition of Brit Sci-Fi and GW have been doing it since Rogue Trader, for satire and tone.

2) Quotes from Shakspire, author of 2 quite good plays, just shows us that while facts change over 10,000 years essential human truths do not. It's also good world-building IMHO.

3) Naming characters in accordance with their function in the plot is a technique done (usually) in stories pitched at teen-level readers. BL has a requirement to entertain the GW demographic. 

#3 is the one I have trouble with, if it's done in a pseudo-intellectual way. In that case the reference has a good chance of going over the heads of the people it's supposed to be for but irritating everyone who understands it by being too obvious. 
I think I'd have preferred it if Iagon of the Salamanders was called St'Ar'Skream or Tray'atar.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

Mob, interesting post. I should make clear that I do NOT play any GW games (no time, no time); my only contact with 40K is the BL books. I like them a lot, but read them purely for entertainment in between reading "serious literature" and history. For me, BL is a much more satisfying alternative to TV. 

I am in awe of the posters here who can cite chapter and verse about 40K in general and HH in particular -- I can't. 

As to your point #3, I hadn't thought of the BL books being aimed at a teenage demographic (I think that is what you meant). Slipping back into the "lit guy" role, IMHO BL books are well written, regardless of their intended audience.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't agree really. They don't steal from any other fictions like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc. As far as i've noticed they just take stuff from our actual history such as the Art of War or a quote or two from a Shakespear play. I like all these refrences as it reminds you that it all comes from Holy Terra or Earth as we call it, and it isn't really some alternate reality but just the far distant future of our world. So yeah i have no problem when they quote these things. I've never really noticed too much of them outright changing someones name and still using their works, certainly not anyone from modern times anyway and even the old ones tend to have some sort of link to the old works


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

@Mob, you get what I am driving at. I admit I am not in the teenage demographic, but Captain Obvious, and Captain "Shuffle a few letters around to make a new name" do not have to work as hard as they do...

Quoting is understandable, re-wording is understandable, but don't make so obvious that you don't even have to think about the source...

Sun T'zu cannot be called Solar U'tz without jarring the reader back to reality and pissing them off.

I was reading "The Enchantress of Florence", by Salman Rushdie and he uses an age old, worn phrase, ascribing it to one of the characters, but the way it is said, and the way the character relays the idea to the others in the scene, makes you go "AHA", not "Oh lord..."


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't agree really. They don't steal from any other fictions like Star Wars


Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau would like a word with you.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Is this before or after Captain Tony Stark Aragorn-Kirk comes to see me?


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Is this before or after Captain Tony Stark Aragorn-Kirk comes to see me?


Ha, he doesn't really exist though, right? Regardless, counting down to his appearance in the next Salamanders novel as Techmarine Ar'gon T'starik, go!


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