# What is the best walker close combat vehicle?



## Sejanus (Jul 23, 2009)

I.E. like a dreadnought vs.wraithlord who wins?






:shok:


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

I dig the Death Company Furioso Dreadnought (3+d3 attacks, and another on the assault; heavy flamer and a MG) but there's no real reliable way to move it around. BA Drop Pods cost a little more than vanilla SM drop pods and don't have the drop pod assault rule, or an option for locator beacons. More importantly I've seen some AMAZING DC Dreads on the B&C forums that some guys have custom built. There's on in particular that I've never seen anything like it. I dare say it was the coolest walker I've ever seen in my life and hate my life to know someone that good with modeling exists.

Note: I'm not going to say it's "the best" there are better, certainly. As far as the one model I saw customized, I'd say it's the best LOOKING walker I've seen. Tastes in looks are subjective though. By the rules you'd be hard pressed to find a "best" walker, just situationaly better ones.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Wraith Lord is an MC not vehicle, but in my opinion can't go past a Defiler with all CCW at S10


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Wraithlords are monstrous creatures, not walkers.

As for 'best' I'd say it's a tie between the Venerable DC Furioso and the Ironclad. The ironclad hits harder versus armor (use the seismic hammer though, chainfist drops your initiative) and is tougher, but the furioso has more attacks and can be Venerable, making it harder to kill...but it's also harder to control, charging off to attack whatever's closest...but it's also cheaper


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## necroman (Jun 13, 2008)

The absurdal vect vehicle from dark eldar would actually probably be the best but i dont know how that works, its just a walker in cc, but not really


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Wraithlords are monstrous creatures, not walkers.
> 
> As for 'best' I'd say it's a tie between the Venerable DC Furioso and the Ironclad. The ironclad hits harder versus armor (use the seismic hammer though, chainfist drops your initiative) and is tougher, but the furioso has more attacks and can be Venerable, making it harder to kill...but it's also harder to control, charging off to attack whatever's closest...but it's also cheaper


Wise man, that Galahad. I'm such a sucker for the DC Dread. It really is such a pain to control, though.


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

The defiler is pretty good. Armed to the teeth, tons of attacks, fleet, can't be stunned or shaken.


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

You forgot that it looks like it should be a boss from Doom 2...

(I mean that in the plus column.)


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

The Defiler's poor initiative, armor, and WS leave it out of the running, I am afraid. I would vote for the Furioso.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok.. Going with a completely weird option.. I vote.. The Penitent Engine.

Sure.. it's open topped, and has AV11.. but they're way cheaper than any other dread, and they come in squadrons. They have 1d6 attacks ( +1 if assaulting ) a heavy flamer, move an extra d6 inch during movement phase ( so you could run in the shooting phase if you want too ) and ignore shaken/stunned results.
Also, you need 2 weapon destroyed results to get rid of it's close combat arm ( since it has 2 of them )
Only trouble is sending them where you want.. since they go for the nearest enemy.


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## Shadow Hawk (Apr 26, 2009)

Well, I can tell you what's NOT good in cc. War walkers. Wraithlords are pretty good, but a defiler would beat it. Probably.


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## Lucius The Typhus (Apr 5, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Wraith Lord is an MC not vehicle, but in my opinion can't go past a Defiler with all CCW at S10


Actually, that happened when I was playing my Eldar friend the other day. My Defiler was... well lets say dead. For a higher perspective, my Defiler had four Dreadnought CC Weapons.


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

Gul Torgo said:


> The Defiler's poor initiative, armor, and WS leave it out of the running, I am afraid. I would vote for the Furioso.


It still hits on 4's just like a furioso and still goes before power fists. AV12 with daemonic possession, fleet and smoke make it much tougher than it appears.


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## Daniel Harper (May 25, 2008)

Sentinel. Sorry I couldn't help it. Have you seen that chainsaw?  Still they can hold their own.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Errmm one would think the best walker would be a warlord titan with CC weapons? However baring any appoc walkers the best walker in my eyes is the soul grinder.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I'd still say the Defiler is pretty awful. Maxing out with 6 attacks, then half of those will miss.

All the Walkers seems to be a little underwhelming in assault actually.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Tell that to the poor squad without powerfist


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Concrete Hero said:


> I'd still say the Defiler is pretty awful. Maxing out with 6 attacks, then half of those will miss.


Against WS4 they hit on 4s, just like WS4
They ge thit a little easier, and they've a harder time with WS5+, but against WS4, 3 hits just as well as 4.



> All the Walkers seems to be a little underwhelming in assault actually.


I don't know about that. They're all but unkillable against anything but powerfists and MCs, have the strength to insta-kill almost anything short of an MC (and ignore armor), I'd say they're very effective. They're more than a match for almost any IC, even the ones that cost more than them, and can tear most vehicles to pieces.

I still don't rate the defiler though.
5 DCCW attacks, sure, but it;s as big as a house, making it impossible to hide from shooting (not a factor in assault, but still a factor) and if you fire that cnanon you cannot assault, so if you;re all CC there's absolutely no pre-charge shooting, whereas a Furioso can whip off a heavy flamer and (most importantly) a meltagun, at assault0range meaning 2d6 pen.

The ironclad can have two of them.

The (DC) Furioso can have up to 6 attacks, (though 4 or 5 is average)...I really miss when they used to have 2d6 penetration, but it's a bit gratuitous at S10, with so many attacks. The DC makes them hard to control, but drop pods don't cost much and they make a fantastic impact ;-)


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Can you not assault after firirg the battle cannon?


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Galahad said:


> ...if you fire that cnanon you cannot assault, so if you;re all CC there's absolutely no pre-charge shooting...


What rule is this (if you have a page number in the rule book, that'd be fantastic--I'd like to take a look at it)? Granted, I don't use defilers a *whole* lot, and when I do, I'd rather *not* shoot the cannon into the unit I'm about to assault, but I have to say, I've never heard of not being able to shoot the battlecannon before assaulting.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

im gonna go a bit mad here and say that the best CC walker is the killa kan. 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's normally... so its S10 i2... a squad of 3 with grotzookas are like 135 pts - so thats 9 attacks on the charge - value for points its gotta be the kans - they eat everything i have ever thrown them at. sure you will lose one or two but you just gotta kill one dready. put 3 against some marines and have fun. if they kill one it will prolly blow up and kill 1 or two more aswell lol - seriously - do the math!


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

I think the defiler is better then the Drednaughts. It has a battlecannon where the Dred has a Heavy flamer and a meltagun. It can also assult far enough so that the Dred cant ever get a shot. Also the Defiler will usualy have more attacks then the Dred. However I only have the rules for defilers and I play CSM so I may be biased.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MJayC50 said:


> im gonna go a bit mad here and say that the best CC walker is the killa kan. 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's normally... so its S10 i2... a squad of 3 with grotzookas are like 135 pts - so thats 9 attacks on the charge - value for points its gotta be the kans - they eat everything i have ever thrown them at. sure you will lose one or two but you just gotta kill one dready. put 3 against some marines and have fun. if they kill one it will prolly blow up and kill 1 or two more aswell lol - seriously - do the math!


I was actually going to say this 
Soul Grinder hasn't even been MENTIONED! Shame on you :no:
Front armour 13, 4 attacks, and fleet.

But Killa Kans are probably better, Soul Grinders aren't that tough against S10.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

KarlFranz40k said:


> Can you not assault after firirg the battle cannon?





Wraithian said:


> What rule is this (if you have a page number in the rule book, that'd be fantastic--I'd like to take a look at it)? Granted, I don't use defilers a *whole* lot, and when I do, I'd rather *not* shoot the cannon into the unit I'm about to assault, but I have to say, I've never heard of not being able to shoot the battlecannon before assaulting.


Mmmm, looks like 5th edition has made a fool of me.
It WAS a rule in 4th, where it explicitly said that models that fire ordinance may not charge into assault, but it seems that little note was removed in 5th, making the defiler a little more valuable than it was before.

Still, I don't rate it against an ironclad or venedable DC furioso.

Deff Dredds are good in CC, though you have to give up an attack if you want a heavy flamer (very valuable weapon for assaults, imo), and their initiative is very poor. It puts them just ahead of power fists, which means they're still ideal for tying up infantry and characters, but against another CC vehicle or monstrous creature, they're scrap metal


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Hence why I prefer Defilers we have a mass cannon to fire off before we even hit our enemy in CC meaning they may just die before this even happens.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Mmmm, looks like 5th edition has made a fool of me.


Story of my life Galahad, :alcoholic:


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

galahad - deff dreads really do suck at everything, the post i made was about killa kans (roughly 3 for the same price as other walkers) pound for pound the best. arm them with grotzooka's and they are evil in 5th. whats ur opinion of them?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

My apologies, I misread (I was more focused on the ordinance thing)

Kans aren't bad, point for point.

Unfortunately, they're flimsy and also (to be worth it) squadded, which makes them extremely easy to kill (immob results = kill, and you distribute hits amongst the squad). The three attacks your powerfist sarge has upon charging in, are probably enough to wipe the whole squad if they hit. They're also going to have a bitch of a time actually getting close enough to matter. Dreads at least have drop pods and thicker armor (and aren't gimped by squad rules)



Blue Liger said:


> Hence why I prefer Defilers we have a mass cannon to fire off before we even hit our enemy in CC meaning they may just die before this even happens.


Of course you realize that shooting a 5" template weaon, that scatters 2d6'3" while you're 6" or less from the target had a reasonable probability of being a profoundly hilarious move, right?


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

i think you being a bit blinkered there galahad. squandron rules are not as bad as you make out infact its a bonus for the kans. you must have noticed that vehicles are much harder to kill in this editon. so if you can hit, beat the armour and destroy (immob) 3 kans then i think there is alot of firepower coming the units way. all stunned results are instead classed as shaken so they can always move and now run aswell. poor armour value of 11 but its only one off a dreadnought. and u have to kill it 3 times in this case for the same points. and in assault they are much better than a unit of meq. marines go first so 9 krak nades 6's to hit (as walkers are) so we will say 2 on a bad day. s6 so 5+ to glance. so 1 does penetrate. then another 50/50 chance of stopping the kan. chances are not good. then kans get 9 attacks on charge 4's (say 5 hit) then 2's (say 4) thats 4 dead. sgt attacks twice 1 hit maybe 2 then 3's and 4's then another 50 50. so maybe on a good day 2 rolls on a damage table. maybe 1 dead 35pt killa kan (if it blows up big its great! say 6 marines get his in blast 2 will be wounded so you have a 1 in 3 chance of killing more marines when you die! kans win by 2. point for point THE best result walkers can have vs a squad of meq's. kills more on average. soaks up more on average. altogether better in my opinion  (on a side note thro in a KFF and you kans are laughing)


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

I think the "they absorb extra firing" argument is a little flawed. Honestly, what the heck else do orks have to divert heavy firing from? It's not the like the ork player makes you choose between 3 different tanks and the squad of Kans. Trukks pop to bolter fire. Those kans are going to be very alone, and very dead vehicles against any army with any degree of heavy fire. Things like devastator squads have 4 heavy shots to fire at that Kans squad. If anything it gives heavy weapons a target, that are normally sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Let's see... shoot heavy weapons at a 30 boyz and kill a few 6 point boyz or pop some 35 point models. I think the choice is clear. 11 AV is nothing for most heavy weapons squads, especially the ones you see in a MEQ army. The extra 1 (or 2 if ironclad) AV of a dread goes a long way, especially when the Venerable DC Dread is forcing rerolls on glancing and penetrating hits. With the DP for the 'noughts they may actually see some action, give you a tactical advantage in being able to basically lay down some fire/assault from anywhere with that walker. Additionally the MEQ army is most likely going to have more than a few targets to choose from. Even shooting a squad of heavy weapons into ten marines, feels more fruitful pulling off 3 marines as opposed to that same heavy weapons squad killing 3 boyz. The nature of the kans, and the army they are in make them inherently worse. They aren't fast enough against any army with real heavy weapons, armor 11 is a big difference between armor 12 that re-rolls glances/pens or armor 13 of the ironclad (that have drop podded to a tactically advantageous spot, rather than foot-slogged), krak grenades stand a chance to pop them as opposed to doing nothing to the Ironclad, and that they're in the ork army - i.e. lone vehicle in the army on foot makes them an easy target, squad or no. Heavy weapons squads have more than enough fire to kill two of them. Them being isolated as vehicles in an army of orks, more than gives the heavy weapons squad some extra target practice. The only advantage to them is that they have the decency to be only 1 KP when the squad is smashed easily.



Blue Liger said:


> Hence why I prefer Defilers we have a mass cannon to fire off before we even hit our enemy in CC meaning they may just die before this even happens.


A good argument for why the defiler might be a good "all-around" walker, or a good "shooting walker" (which I'd argue that it's BS3 which makes some of its shooting rather dicey). The debate is over the best CC Walker. Factoring the BS 3 shooting, followed by an assault even, just doesn't add up to a heavy flamer and MG followed by the assault of a much higher init, much higher number of attacks, and higher WS walker. Honestly I'd rather have a defiler staying out of CC and shooting, than trying to rumble in CC. Additionally, when I think of the possibility of the defiler taking an assault vs. one of the other two contenders (Venerable DC Furioso Dread/Ironclad), I like the chances of the latter two over the former. I'm not counting them out of the running for awesome walkers though. I agree they're damn good. Since the debate was listed as "Best CC Walker" I have to disagree that they're better in CC than some other dreadnoughts.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

What about the Soul Grinder, he's pretty tough and has lots of cool special abilities


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Against infantry, he's great. Against dreadnoughts... He sucks. Every time I've had a defiler in CC with a dread, the defiler has his init 3 ass kicked before he has a chance to swing. Against standard infantry, he mows through stuff left and right, though. If it can be kept in that role, he shines.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

darklove said:


> What about the Soul Grinder, he's pretty tough and has lots of cool special abilities


I already mentioned it, I'm surprised no one else has said anything about that.
I mean, come on people, he has AV13 and 4 attacks!



Wraithian said:


> Against infantry, he's great. Against dreadnoughts... He sucks. Every time I've had a defiler in CC with a dread, the defiler has his init 3 ass kicked before he has a chance to swing. Against standard infantry, he mows through stuff left and right, though. If it can be kept in that role, he shines.


Defilers are quite powerful, and they are grand in the long-run of a combat.

Both Soul Grinder and Defiler are possessed (or Daemon), which means they ignore Shaken and Stunned results, and any Stunned result makes you lose an attack in CC.
This would be an advantage over say, Venerable dreadnoughts.
Assuming they don't die instantly, they'll have a fairly good advantage in the next round; and they'll probably get the charge anyway because they're both Fleet!
Ironclad dreadnoughts don't suffer this penalty though, because they come with Extra Armour from the get-go; which means they're unlikely to lose attacks when they're damaged.


Let's say a Soul Grinder charges a Venerable dreadnought.
Venerable dread gets 2 attacks, and hits on 3+, so we'll say he hits with both.
3 to glance, so let's say he gets a Penetrating hit and a nothing.
Penetrating only has a 1/3 chance to kill, so we'll go with Weapon Destroyed, which reduces his attacks to 3.

Soul Grinder hits back with 4 attacks.
2 hit, 2 to glance; both penetrate on average really, we were generous with the Dready's hits.
He rolls a Wrecked and Stunned result; the Wrecked is re-rolled, but re-rolling the Stunned would be a stupid risk, the re-roll comes up Immobilised, both reduce his attacks by 1 next turn, but a minimum of 1.

Next turn, the Dreadnought throws his 1 attack, hits, and gets a Glancing hit; he rolls a Stunned result, which is ignored.

Soul Grinder throws his 3 attacks back.
I think you see where this is going.


The Soul Grinder is a great walker, good attacks, great armour, good shooting weapons (I didn't give him any good guns, so he was rather less points in value), and great rules; fleet should not be underestimated.
Great, good, great, good, great... See a pattern there? :S

Defiler with his AV12 and battle cannon certainly is best suited to shooting, but can do good in melee against the right targets.


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

Venerable DC Furioso Dreadnought is going to have a minimum of 4 attacks in CC without assaulting, and up to 6 (on average 5) and may purchase extra armor if you'd like. I also wouldn't underestimate the ability to drop pod your dreadnought. Furioso's come with an MG. I'll give your Soul Grinder the charge, assuming it survives the MG. The furioso is going to land where you want it because of the inertial guidance system. On average you hit with the melta. Get a 15 to penatrate (on average), and with a roll on the damage table you'll average a 4 or 5 because of AP1 adding +1 to the table. Which on average will be an immobilized or wrecked.

Well let's see... soul grinder is immobilized. Even if it gets the charge... dealing with the on average 5 (and NOT 2) attacks from the Venerable DC Furioso Dreadnought... you may find your statistics change. I'm not going to bother mathhammering you, but you can work it out and realize the Soul Grinder is screwed about six ways from Sunday.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SpacedGhost said:


> Venerable DC Furioso Dreadnought


Wait.
What is this?
Blood Angels codex?

*checks*

Holy dicks.
That is ridiculous!


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

hehe, that's the proper response


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SpacedGhost said:


> hehe, that's the proper response


Yep, no doubt.
Those things win over everything else.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

unfortunately, drop pods are pretty much mandatory since they're essentially uncontrolled monsters you need that element of control and relative safety. And, to get the most out of it, you need venerable and extra armor, which adds tot he price in an army list where *everything* is more expensive.

Badass thought hey are, you don't see them in BA lists too often because they just can''t be afforded in an army where every squad costs like 20 points more than it should


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

And due to the Furioso's points, my vote goes to the Ironclad. Very similar capabilities and armament, but with better armor and lower points to field effectively. 

I haven't had a chance to give my Ironclad a spin yet, but I think I probably will this Friday when we run Planetstrike in the store.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> And due to the Furioso's points, my vote goes to the Ironclad. Very similar capabilities and armament, but with better armor and lower points to field effectively.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to give my Ironclad a spin yet, but I think I probably will this Friday when we run Planetstrike in the store.


What have you equipped it with?
And did the Chainfist thing ever get resolved?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Nothing to resolve.
Chainfist lowers Initiative to 1, that's what it says on the tin.
That's why it's *free*
And IMO, not worth it.

Hammer, Melta, DCCW, HF, Assault Launchers and Drop Pod are a good way to kit it for assault.
If you're going against troops primarily then I would maybe replace the DCCW with a Hurricane Bolter, and the meltagun with a HF
Though on second thought, maybe keep the DCCW and just swap the melta for a flamer. That close, a second heavy flamer will do more damage than 6 bolter shots.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

What tin?
I don't really think that's how it was intended, because taking the Chainfist also removes the benefit of having 2 weapons; which makes it basically useless.

I think I'd take it with Hurricane, Hammer, and Melta.
That's a fairly all-around sort of build.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

'Tin' was a figure of speech.
Buy a tin of beans, open it up and inside is exactly what it said on the thin, beans.
Buy a chainfist for a dread and you get exactly what it said on the tin, a chainfist, with all the rules and penalties that come with it.

The Hammer specifically says that it counts as a DCCW, meaning it strikes at full initiative and grants bonus attacks. the chainfist, however, is nothing but a chainfist.

Go look up chainfist in the main rulebook. The rules are all right there. If it's not what they intended they should have added the same line they did for the hammer, saying that it counted as a DCCW. If they had intended for them to have different rules, they would have given them different rules. "Ironclad Chainfist: This weapon counts as a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, except that it rolls S+2d6 for armor penetration, just like a terminator chainfist." One sentence, takes three seconds to write, doesn't take up any real space in the book. But instead they don;t add any special rules, because there aren't any. You don't assume that their meltaguns or HKMs are any different than regular ones, do you?

If you got to swing around the chainfist for free, at full initiative and gain bonus attacks then there would never be a reason to use the hammer. 

But this isn't a thread for digging up old arguments. If you want to review the old chainfist debate, just search 'ironclad chainfist' It's been talked to death before.

Back to the topic: If you could take a DC Furioso in a normal marines list (as in an army that can actually afford it), I'd probably rather have the furioso for assaults. But the BA can;t afford to waste any points and need as many boots on the ground as possible. I wouldn't buy an Ironclad for BA either, if I could.

A properly kitted Furioso is 215, drop pod included.
A similarly equipped Ironclad is 195 (also with pod). A 20 point savings, but when you realize that 15 of those points is the cost difference between SM and BA drop pods, it's only a 5 point difference. Drop the pods and they're roughly equal in points.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm gonna throw common sense to the wind and vote eldar warwalker. I had one which had a single scatter laser, shot and killed a terminator, it charged, kicked another one to death, and the explosion resulting from its death took out two more! Fun times :laugh:


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

lol thats genius karl... on the same fun side note a mate of mine attacked typhus with a av12 sentinal... needless to say it cost his oppenent the game. (typhus cant actually hurt him in combat - at all


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

I still feel the Venerable DC Furioso Dreadnought is one of the best, if not the best, CC Walkers. It's unfortunate BA are overcosted around the board. Our Drop pods are more expensive than 'nilla SM, and don't even get the drop pod assault rule. An edition ago, prior to iron clads, the Furioso Dreadnought was unmatched by any walker in assault. Most walkers couldn't dream of two DCCW, let alone a heavy flamer and MG on each of those. It feels kind of like they took one of the more unique things out of the BA list and gave it to SM at large. Which I don't feel necessarily bad about, but wonder if they'll change it when we get our update to one up the vanilla SM again. Maybe they'll even give BA some of the things that are considered unique to vanilla SM when they're updated. 

Either way I still feel the VDCFD is pretty much a CC powerhouse. Barring the overcosted DP you're pretty much paying exactly what you should for it, give or take ten points. It's unfortunate it's in a list that can't afford to spend that many points on a walker though when you really need to just get more marines. I won't go any more into my philosophies on BA as this isn't the place. Moral of the story. VDCFD rocks, Ironclads rock similarly. There's not much the VDCFD can't man handle in melee. I wonder if it gets help from Corbs (Furious Charge) or Dante's (Preferred Enemy) special rules within 12". That makes it even more fun. Init 5 instead of 4 on the assault and rerolling to hit, oh yeah.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> If you got to swing around the chainfist for free, at full initiative and gain bonus attacks then there would never be a reason to use the hammer.


I disagree, I'd still take the Hammer.
Basically more effective against anything but AV14, and arguably equally as effective against that.

But I wasn't saying it DOES strike at proper I, just saying that I think it may have been a horrible ommision.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=2700008a
On that page, there is an Ironclad with chainfist/DCCW; I don't think they would do that if it didn't pose some benefit. (although looking at it, it has a heavy flamer...)

Keep in mind with the BA troops though, that cost is probably incorporating the DC stuff.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Winterous said:


> I disagree, I'd still take the Hammer.
> Basically more effective against anything but AV14, and arguably equally as effective against that.


I don't know about that. The hammer gets an extra bonus on the damage roll table, but it won't help you penetrate (You've only got a 50/50 chance of doing any damage, and a third of the time you damage, that bonus is just helping to make up for the glance. Meanwhile a chainfist at S10 is almost always going to penetrate.



> But I wasn't saying it DOES strike at proper I, just saying that I think it may have been a horrible ommision.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=2700008a
> On that page, there is an Ironclad with chainfist/DCCW; I don't think they would do that if it didn't pose some benefit. (although looking at it, it has a heavy flamer...)


Understandable.
Bear in mind though, that it might have kept the DCCW, not just for the flamer, but for the opportunity to strike at I4 if you elect to use it instead of the chainfist.



> Keep in mind with the BA troops though, that cost is probably incorporating the DC stuff.


I know full well that's what it is.
That doesn't make the army any cheaper or able to afford luxuries though. That's like being required to field a squad of terminators. Powerful, yes, but expensive and leaves you precious little points to spend on anything else. Especially since if you want that handfull of 'free' DC to be useful you've got to spend almost as many points buying extra bodies to flesh them out.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Lots of stuff!


Yeah, I guess so.
Anyway, irrelevant!

Although I think the topic is over.


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

Wait a min I don't get this mathhammer



SpacedGhost said:


> I'll give your Soul Grinder the charge, assuming it survives the MG.


Meltaguns have 12" range and the soulgrinder has fleet. If your giving it the charge then anyone who can judge ranges properly would be able to assult you from out of range of the meltagun. You can't stand and shoot in 40K:biggrin:.



SpacedGhost said:


> On average you hit with the melta. Get a 15 to penatrate (on average).


Yes if your in melta range but that is 6 inches and anyone can keep a model between 6-13"away (Remember fleet).

However if they have different rules from normal which prove me wrong then im sorry as I don't have their rules.


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## SpacedGhost (Dec 16, 2008)

You were selectively reading, mate. You missed the part where I mentioned a Drop Pod. The drop pod inertial guidance system is what makes it work. If it's stepping out of a DP then yes it's in range for its MG. In all the times I've run MGs on something in a DP they've never been out of range to melta their target.

Fleet is useless against something falling from the sky directly next to it. You might say something like "but DS scatter." To which I reply, anyone who's been running DPs understands how to use terrain and intervening models to land a DP exactly where they want it. The large base of a Dread helps gain extra precious inches when positioning upon exiting the DP too. There's a what, 40mm base on a Dreadnought, and you're allowed to exit the DP within 2 inches of any exit. That's like practically getting 4 inches for free on the shot from the MG.

Additionally, a Venerable DC Furioso Dreadnought has on average 5 attacks, and not the two initially used to say a Soul Grinder beats it. At initiative 4, with the reworked number of attacks the soul grinder is dead even if it assaults. Even more dead considering the average rolls on a MG and that anyone running DPs with half a brain can land that sucker down its throat and even pad the range on the MG using the larger base of the dreadnought along with the 2 inches you're allowed to disembark from a DP.


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