# Sternguard Tactics



## Ferik

*Sternguard need Convincing*

Ok well starting this one due to the fact that many people keep going on about Sterguard and quite frankly I have yet to be impressed with them
everytime I have played against them they have not stacked up to their hype.

My problems with them are their high point cost die as easily as normal Marines and that you can counteract any of their special rounds.

Dragonfire is only good against orks (Nids can increase their armour to 4+) so limited use
Hellfire is allright but most high toughness creatures have 2+ armour
Kraken is good if haven't moved but still a normal bolter and unlikly to be used since Sterguard are usually on the move
Vengence gets hot sucks especialy for an expensive unit and can still get cover in most situations.

Like I've had opponents unload 2 squads of Sterguard on 1 Tac Squad with Vengence in the open and fail to do much of anything I simply went to ground and made a good portion of my saves I do acknowledge that it was due to bad rolling on his part as well but his I now know to keep my units in vehicles until I can tack them out.

Well thats my two cents, I guess I just need some major convincing here


----------



## The Son of Horus

Sternguard have a place in any defensive line. They're able to engage any foe with relative ease, and as such can plug an obvious gap in your battle line. They don't do anything a regular Tactical Squad can't, but they do their job more efficiently, which makes them more than worth their points.

A solid 90% of the time, you're just going to shoot hellfire rounds. So what if the target has a 2+ armor save? You hit that target sixteen times and wound him nearly as many, and that 2+ armor save monster has to take a bunch of saves. You're going to hurt him. Vengance Rounds are a liability-- I'd pretty much never use 'em. The return you get on them isn't worth the loss of multiple Sternguard per volley--which you statistically are likely to lose. 

Kraken bolts let you beat Tau at their own game. 4+ is a good armor save, but they don't get it against Kraken bolts, so you actually end up with the upper hand in a firefight against Fire Warriors. You match the range of a pulse rifle with the kraken bolts, to boot. It's interesting to see how Tau players react to that sort of thing, because it's a really unexpected element, and they have to deal with it or find their Fire Warriors outclassed at their own game.

Dragonfire bolts aren't useless, either. They're for clearing buildings of heavy weapons squads which don't have particularly good armor-- in this case, Lootas and Guard Heavy Weapons platoons. They also let you seriously mess with Eldar snipers, which are awfully hard to shake out of a dug-in position. Finally, you're able to fire through your own units with impunity with the dragonfire rounds, since they ignore cover. The target won't be able to claim a cover save due to intervening models, as a result, so you can screen your Sternguard from a rather ferocious counterassault in a lot of cases. 

Sternguard also have access to one weapon which makes them worth owning, if nothing else-- a heavy flamer. Heavy flamers are retarded good, and in a squad that's likely to be engaging targets at relatively close ranges, it's extremely useful. Yeah, that model loses access to his special issue rounds, but it's a bloody heavy flamer. All the combi-weapons are nice, too, albeit a little pricey.


----------



## sooch

Ferik said:


> Ok well starting this one due to the fact that many people keep going on about Sterguard and quite frankly I have yet to be impressed with them
> everytime I have played against them they have not stacked up to their hype.
> 
> My problems with them are their high point cost die as easily as normal Marines and that you can counteract any of their special rounds.
> 
> Dragonfire is only good against orks (Nids can increase their armour to 4+) so limited use
> Hellfire is allright but most high toughness creatures have 2+ armour
> Kraken is good if haven't moved but still a normal bolter and unlikly to be used since Sterguard are usually on the move
> Vengence gets hot sucks especialy for an expensive unit and can still get cover in most situations.
> 
> Like I've had opponents unload 2 squads of Sterguard on 1 Tac Squad with Vengence in the open and fail to do much of anything I simply went to ground and made a good portion of my saves I do acknowledge that it was due to bad rolling on his part as well but his I now know to keep my units in vehicles until I can tack them out.
> 
> Well thats my two cents, I guess I just need some major convincing here


One major point that you fail to realize in your post is that they can ALL take combi weapons for half the price of a combi weapon on a sergeant. This allows SM players to escape the 5th ed. codex constraint of needing to pay 170pts for a special weapon, by taking tons of combi weapons on sternguard. 

Hellfire are also one of the most useful types of rounds, them and kraken (30" and AP4). Wounding anything on a 2+ is usually the most effective, simply due to weight of numbers and probability of causing a wound. I guarantee that if those two sternguard squads rapid fired on your tac squad with hellfire, you would have been done. 40 shots, 27 hit, and around 22 will wound. You're losing a lot of marines. Vengeance rounds, yes, are overrated since the AP3 is usually of no benefit when you consider the high chance of toasting some of your own models and also the fact that your opponent may be in cover. 30" bolters are also incredibly useful...turning your gun into a tau infantry killer in an open field. 

As stated above, dragonfire certainly has its place as well.

The main thing though is the combi weapons. Most armies have no answer to 8x combi melta, 2x combi flamer.


----------



## Ferik

sooch said:


> One major point that you fail to realize in your post is that they can ALL take combi weapons for half the price of a combi weapon on a sergeant. This allows SM players to escape the 5th ed. codex constraint of needing to pay 170pts for a special weapon, by taking tons of combi weapons on sternguard.
> 
> Hellfire are also one of the most useful types of rounds, them and kraken (30" and AP4). Wounding anything on a 2+ is usually the most effective, simply due to weight of numbers and probability of causing a wound. I guarantee that if those two sternguard squads rapid fired on your tac squad with hellfire, you would have been done. 40 shots, 27 hit, and around 22 will wound. You're losing a lot of marines. Vengeance rounds, yes, are overrated since the AP3 is usually of no benefit when you consider the high chance of toasting some of your own models and also the fact that your opponent may be in cover. 30" bolters are also incredibly useful...turning your gun into a tau infantry killer in an open field.
> 
> As stated above, dragonfire certainly has its place as well.
> 
> The main thing though is the combi weapons. Most armies have no answer to 8x combi melta, 2x combi flamer.


Yes combi-weapons are alright I just prefer to shoot a weapon more than once in a game and yes I do agree that their various shots can also be very useful.

The big problem is that Sternguard are a big threat to many armies and will have a huge bullseye on them they are going to die and yes they are most likely to decimate the unit they fire at but in the end they will not make up their points since most units they are designed to take out are usually far cheaper so I just feel its not the best trade off is all.


----------



## Phrazer

I had a game last night and used my Sternies for the first time and i WAS pretty impressed tbh. I was playing against Guard and i popped a Lehh Russ on his flank with 2 Melta shots, then went on to Rapid fire Kracken bolts into a carapace armour Infantry... seemed to work very well, although like you said, they will now have a massive target on their heads whenever i play that guy again!!

Still lost the game though


----------



## Stella Cadente

Stick em in a drop pod with a librarian (with the 5+ invul power and re-roll invulnerable power) and some combi meltas (for a 10 man squad 4 will do) and go hunting for Independent characters left all alone, tanks with no support, daemon princes, especially C-tan, or just drop them behind a horde army and pump rounds into units from behind to make some nice big holes and split them up


----------



## sooch

Ferik said:


> Yes combi-weapons are alright I just prefer to shoot a weapon more than once in a game and yes I do agree that their various shots can also be very useful.
> 
> The big problem is that Sternguard are a big threat to many armies and will have a huge bullseye on them they are going to die and yes they are most likely to decimate the unit they fire at but in the end they will not make up their points since most units they are designed to take out are usually far cheaper so I just feel its not the best trade off is all.


This is why you put them in a land raider. Also, "making back their points" is a poor measure of a unit's success in a game.


----------



## Vaz

Ferik said:


> Yes combi-weapons are alright I just prefer to shoot a weapon more than once in a game and yes I do agree that their various shots can also be very useful.
> 
> The big problem is that Sternguard are a big threat to many armies and will have a huge bullseye on them they are going to die and yes they are most likely to decimate the unit they fire at but in the end they will not make up their points since most units they are designed to take out are usually far cheaper so I just feel its not the best trade off is all.


You're missing the point that while that Plasma/Flamer/Melta is good for oneshot, you then have a Sternguard bolter beneath it - you don't relinquish its effects, whereas you do for a Heavy Weapon.

Support with a Lascannon/LasPlas Razorback is a cheap use of a Transport as an additional Heavy Weapons person, without forgoing the Sternguard ammo. If you have bought a Land Raider for a Heavy Support choice, consider using that instead of for your Terminators - have them March the way, and utilise their heavier armour, and withstand shots that trekking Sternguard won't.

Those lascannons are more likely to target your Terminators as well, as if they hit your line, as well as Sternguard, they're a bit buggered.


----------



## Katie Drake

So far my Sternguard have done nothing but impress me in every game. They're expensive without a doubt and can struggle if your opponent manages to engage them in close combat, but they always seem worth it despite these drawbacks.

*Sternguard Veteran Squad*
Veteran Sergeant
- Combi-melta
- Power fist
9 Sternguard Veterans
- 4 with combi-meltas
- 5 with combi-flamers
Drop Pod
Pts: 360

I know, wince at the price tag (in points). I agree, it's expensive and seems like a huge waste of points, but thus far they've worked very well.

When the unit comes in they'll disembark from their Pod, immediately split into Combat Squads (meltas in one, flamers in another) and go hunting for optimal targets. Since Drop Pods are so accurate, it's not hard for me to land the Pod in a spot where the melta Combat Squad can annihilate a heavily armored target and the flamer Combat Squad can let rip on some infantry.

The rest of my army is pretty aggressive too, rolling up in Razorbacks or coming down in Drop Pods so the Sternguard are never unsupported for long. I'll often send Pedro down with the Sternguard as well, so if anyone does decide to assault them they'll be in for a real surprise as each Sternguard will be striking back with 3 Attacks per model (including the power fist wielding Veteran Sergeant!).

Katie D


----------



## Ferik

So I did try out two units of Sternguard this weekend and yes they were pretty good especially with Lysander but I found myself babysitting them the whole game or just "pussyfooting" the whole time.

Then when I lost one of the units in one faze of shooting the whole army just fell apart since there wasn't near enough of my force left to do much else.

Anyways there are some possibilities for them and will look into it some more>


----------



## Engelus

i've used sternguard in all 3 games i have played of 5th edition. and I liek them also, although I definitely did not use them to be most effective.

im going to be kitting them out from now on with 2 combimeltas and a heavy flamer, although I was thinking about dual heavy flamers.

the way I use them, with the droppod is pretty reliable, I very rarely if ever scatter so far away from something that they cant flamer/rapid fire. last game I had them pop out of a LRC and that was nice.


----------



## Gothminion

I found that sternguard, along with a tactical squad (and Kor'sarro Khan) in a Land raider are surprisingly good, as I simply outflank them behind the enemy, and then on the next turn, disembark and shoot, seeing as they are virtually indestructible in the Land Raider. This worked well against the tau, being able to destroy a devilfish, hammerhead and most of a fire warrior squad, with a dreadnought's help, in two turns!


----------



## Arkanor

I generally see Sternguard used as a bomb. 10 guys, combimelta, drops in to kill two tanks, nearly guaranteed turn 1.

It's pretty much what made me start running reserve lists


----------



## Winterous

I don't understand why people refrain from using Vengeance rounds.
Obviously if the unit is in cover their is no reason at all to ignore their armour, but if they're standing in the open it causes terrible, terrible damage.

There is a 1/18 chance of a Gets Hot weapon toasting a Marine, per shot, they is a very acceptable trade-off for the amount of harm they can use, ESPECIALLY if you have Lysander in the unit (just about the only good use of his Bolter Drill rule), because it significantly reduces that chance.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> There is a 1/18 chance of a Gets Hot weapon toasting a Marine, per shot, they is a very acceptable trade-off for the amount of harm they can use, ESPECIALLY if you have Lysander in the unit (just about the only good use of his Bolter Drill rule), because it significantly reduces that chance.


A lot of people would rather not lose models in their own turn. Hellfire rounds can be nearly as effective due largely to the sheer number of armor saves that they force their targets to take and there's no risk to using them.

I do expect Blood Angel players that run Sternguard to attach Sanguinary Priests to them though, which will drastically decrease the chances of Sternguard dying from their own weapons. Might even see some combi-plasma guns, too!


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

For anyone who's interested: Assuming a 10 man Sternguard squad, all with bolter/combi-bolters shooting at a squad of regular CSM:

*Vengence Rounds in RF range:*
Kills = (20)(4/6)(3/6) = 240/36 = ~6.7 kills
Deaths from gets hot = (10)(11/36)(2/6) = 220/216 = ~1.0 deaths

*Vengence Rounds not in RF range:*
Kills = (10)(4/6)(3/6) = 120/36 = ~3.3 kills
Deaths from gets hot = (10)(1/6)(2/6) = 20/36 = ~0.6 deaths

*Hellfire Rounds in RF range:*
Kills = (20)(4/6)(5/6)(2/6) = 800/216 = ~3.7 kills

*Hellfire Rounds not in RF range:*
Kills = (10)(4/6)(5/6)(2/6) = 400/216 = ~1.9 kills

I'd say vengeance rounds are pretty worthwhile. Keep in mind vengeance rounds have 6" less range. The only time I'd see hellfire rounds being better against power armoured foes than vengeance rounds is against PMs.


----------



## Saint Dark

Prefer hellfire over vengeance myself, though my sternguard have gotten more of a workout versus MCs of all types then any armor. They have really shined in the bomb role so far.


----------



## Winterous

Saint Dark said:


> Prefer hellfire over vengeance myself, though my sternguard have gotten more of a workout versus MCs of all types then any armor. They have really shined in the bomb role so far.


Well Hellfire (usually the best), against MEQ, increase your chance of wounding by 2/3, so you will be wounding 5/3 as much as you normally would; however, Vengeance abolishes their 2/3 save, effectively TRIPLING the effectiveness of your otherwise normal Bolter.

So, against MEQ, Vengeance have (approximately) triple the effect (in chance of a dead enemy) of Hellfire.
Against SoB (or Eldar 3+ types), Hellfire have half the effect, so Vengeance apply 6 times the benefit of Hellfire.
Against T5 enemies, Hellfire have 1.5 times the MeQ effect, they more than double (2.5X) the chance of wounding, and Vengeance still multiply the casualty rate by 3, so here Hellfire is an acceptable substitute, because the difference in kill rate is minimal, and you won't be overheating.

Of course, if the enemy is in 4+ cover, you would never use Vengeance against them, it's just a waste.
If they're in 5+ cover, T4 would be even casualties (approximately) no matter what round you used, T3 would be better off with Vengeance, and T5+ would be better off with Hellfire.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Sadly, the sheer amount of cover in 5th ed is the reason vengeance rounds are usually overlooked for hellfire rounds.


----------



## Katie Drake

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Sadly, the sheer amount of cover in 5th ed is the reason vengeance rounds are usually overlooked for hellfire rounds.


Pretty much, yup.


----------



## Widowmaker666

should every one have a combi-weapon? and does anyone know a cheap way of making combi weapons?


----------



## Winterous

Widowmaker666 said:


> should every one have a combi-weapon? and does anyone know a cheap way of making combi weapons?


No, not necessarily, several should have Combi-Meltas, but that's all you _should_ take.
Cheap way? Get creative, that's it really.


----------

