# Are Skaven Slaves really game breaking?



## experiment 626

Title says it all really... So far in 8th edition, the one army my VC's just can't do anything against is Skaven. The reason? Slaves! A minimum of 3-4 blocks of 30 slaves w/shields is a nighmare. The basic tactic is for the slaves to run hell-bent into the biggest threat/s and then use magic & shooting to cripple the enemy unit...

As far I've suffered, I feel that slaves are game-breaking due to the following;
Pro's:
- Less than 3pts/model with shields. They out horde everything else, and thus are almost always steadfast.
- Core unit.
- Don't cause panic in friendly units.
- Inflict auto-hits when they break.
- Expendable so other units can shoot into combats involving slaves.
- Shield upgrade got cheaper
- Template weapons don't randomise hits when fired into combats.

Con's:
- Can't stick a character into the unit otherwise you lose out on expendable.

8th ed Buffs:
- Steadfast. on top of the general's Ld, they typically test in combat on stubborn Ld10?! (wtf? I thought slaves weren't supposed to be quite that brave?!!)
- Inspiring Presence buffed to 18" if general is on a large target.
- 6+ ward save from parry.

So basically, thanks to the basic 12" inspiring presence bubble, almost all slave units are typically Ld10 & will be steadfast in combat...
Once they charge/get charged, if it's something worthless, they simply hold it there for a bit before dying and (likely) exploding causing more damage...
The biggest farce is how a 100pts unit can be used to effectively take-out a 400+pts elite block without even striking a damn blow!!! And if they do break and run, they simply explode, inflicting additional hits and then leaving your unit stuck in place and hung out to dry...

Now, maybe my experiences are tainted by the fact that most people in my local meta list tailor in the extreme, so the skaven players always have plenty of slave units to hold up my far fewer number of undead units.
They then shoot every poisoned wind mortar, warpfire thrower, warp lightning cannon, scorch & 13th spell they've got into my best units. By the time combat come around, the slaves are steadfast so even if my unit 'wins', the slaves don't go anywhere...
And since I have no shooting what so ever, I've got a magic missile or two to try and whittle away ranks...

Still, I think slaves need a re-work overall, since the excessive amounts the skaven can take is game-breaking IMHO... Perhaps the following would balance slaves a bit more;
a) Up their cost by 1pt/model. Effectively bring in a cost to the fact they change a basic rule of the game with 'expendable'. (If undead or daemons for example have to pay pts for causing fear & unbreakable, why do slaves get a 'free' rule?!)

b) Don't allow slaves to count towards the minimum core requirement. When you see more slaves than all the other core combined, somethings wrong!

Those are the big two changes I think that would help bring a bit more balance to the slaves...
Like I said though, perhaps it's just my local meta that has really soured me towards the slaves, and the fact that the VC book is so terribly imbalanced as well, but I'd like to hear other opinions too - do you guys feel that slaves are just a wee bit too good currently?!

Cheers!


----------



## mynameisgrax

Most people I know don't even give them shields. Just 2 point slaves. They are indeed very effective, but not game breakingly so. What makes them seem game breaking is that they can often make it nearly impossible for an army that mainly relies on slow moving close combat focused infantry to get through them before the last turn or two before the game ends, unless they also use very large units.

Basically, you can add units that either have the speed to maneuver around them, the shooting power to fire beyond them, the magic needed to crush them, or the numbers to overwhelm them.

For Vampire Counts, most people I know use a combination of ghoul hordes (almost the same number as skaven slaves) and Vampires with the ghoul summoning power, forbidden lore, and either lore of death, shadow, or vampires to cut through them.


----------



## Vaz

Vampires, not using Lore of Light? What is this madness?

But yeah. I can't say there's ever been that much trouble from Slaves for my WoC.

Big 60 wound 4++ Regen units with 4 S6 attacks apiece tend to shred Slaves.

Skaven as a whole, however, are sickening.


----------



## HiveMinder

I agree, I play Skaven and the slaves are just plain broken. I liked them far more when you had to randomize. It at least made it a little fair and it felt more like Skaven in the fluff. Why the randomizing got FAQ'd out, I'll never understand.

I usually only take one unit of slaves, kind of a courtesy to my opponent.


----------



## Durzod

I'd kinda like to see slaves limited to using their own leadership. Might make them less prone to abuse.


----------



## aquatic_foible

Durzod said:


> I'd kinda like to see slaves limited to using their own leadership. Might make them less prone to abuse.


And take away one of the "fluffiest" rules skaven have!? Madness. Madness and petulance, I say. The only reason people are shouting from the rooftops that slaves are broken is because they haven't found a way to beat them yet...

my list got humped up and down by the new orc+goblin list last week, not because the new rules are "broken", but rather that my opponent had better tactics than me [and a little bit more luck with the dice!]...


----------



## experiment 626

aquatic_foible said:


> And take away one of the "fluffiest" rules skaven have!? Madness. Madness and petulance, I say. The only reason people are shouting from the rooftops that slaves are broken is because they haven't found a way to beat them yet...


Forcing slaves to use their own Ld isn't changing a basic skaven rule, (they keep strength in numbers), but it could make slaves next to useless against alot of armies... (anything with decent amounts of shooting)
But still, crying out that it's everyone else fault and saying 'learn some tactics for dealing with slaves' is simply sticking your head in the sand... Yes, a few armies have some solid options for dealing with masses of slaves. Other armies though litterly can't do anything to combat the problem!

I'd honestly like to know how you think VC's for example should deal with slave spam?! (because i assure you, we can't cope with 4-6+ units of slaves...)


----------



## Vaz

Grave Guard with Lore of Light Vampires? S4, 2 ASF WS10 attacks. Crypt Ghouls, with Lore of Light Vampires - Poison, 3 Attacks WS10, ASF. S3 against Skaven is not an issue. With Banner of the Barrows, hitting on a 2+ with Reroll to hit. I can't remember their initiative, but it's lower - so if they run Ogres or a Bell, you might have some effort trying to kill it.

Bat Swarms - 40 Wounds, again, backed by ASF, or Lore of Light. Backed by a General and BSB, they go nowhere. 

Blood Knights with Blooddrinker Vampire Lord? They put out such a huge number of attacks, especially you get a flank charge (reduce supporting attacks/horde)

Taking the fight to them - Ghouls + Pre game march power, + Spammed Invocation = 24" first turn move.

It's a shame you can't Dwellers.


----------



## experiment 626

Vaz said:


> Grave Guard with Lore of Light Vampires? S4, 2 ASF WS10 attacks. Crypt Ghouls, with Lore of Light Vampires - Poison, 3 Attacks WS10, ASF. S3 against Skaven is not an issue. With Banner of the Barrows, hitting on a 2+ with Reroll to hit. I can't remember their initiative, but it's lower - so if they run Ogres or a Bell, you might have some effort trying to kill it.


True there's lots of magical options, (I always take light magic as well), but it's very unreliable - especially against a Lv4 seer or Lv2 wizard w/staff of sorcery...

I use grave guard & skellies as the infantry for my Lahmians, thus ghouls don't make the cut. (my own fault I know, but I shouldn't be forced to abandon my theme/army just to deal with slaves!)
There's also the fact that something's wrong when it can take upwards of 800-1000pts worth of characters/units to deal with only a 100pts unit?!
And even if you do break 'em, the fact that you're left standing wide open without a chance for a pursuit move is crippling. (as the skaven are happy to sit back & shoot that unit to pieces if there's no a-bomb or other hammer available).



Vaz said:


> Bat Swarms - 40 Wounds, again, backed by ASF, or Lore of Light. Backed by a General and BSB, they go nowhere.


Swarms are laughable though... Sure the ghosties will work when raised from winds of undeath, (they're amazing at it actually provided you can kill a couple slaves), but bat swarms are insanely over-costed for T2/I1 crumbling troops. (but then, swarms in general are useless units)
Plus, to get a minimum sized unit of bat swarms is just over 100pts. To get the 40 wounds as you say is 350pts of stuff that doesn't count towards you core mins to boot!

Also, considering how crumbling now works, our BSB does jack all... The only reason VC's include a BSB is for the banner & extra combat res.



Vaz said:


> Blood Knights with Blooddrinker Vampire Lord? They put out such a huge number of attacks, especially you get a flank charge (reduce supporting attacks/horde)


This goes back to the point that I shouldn't be forced to waste 1000+ pts just to deal with slaves! Besides, unless you take a unit of at least 8 knights, plus the 2 characters, you have to kill every single rank otherwise the unit is auto-steadfast! (and you WILL be shot to shit!)

Keep in mind the basic minimum for that unit is;
Vamp Lord w/fury, drinker, dragonhelm & dreadknight = 330
Wight BSB w/drak banner = 245 pts
6 Knights w/hatred banner = 385 pts
= 960pts for the bare minimum!!! If you do actually take blood knights, then you need a rank, which bumps the cost upto a prohibative 1070pts for everything. (though you lose the ability to strip ranks from just a single casulty)

Blood Knights are no answer...



Vaz said:


> Taking the fight to them - Ghouls + Pre game march power, + Spammed Invocation = 24" first turn move.
> 
> It's a shame you can't Dwellers.


The couple of other local VC players who compete with the cheese-heads all run the ghoul-rush lists w/GG deathstar and do very well with them - even against skaven.
But, I shouldn't be forced to buy an entirely new army because of easily abusive amounts slaves...

It's too bad I can't get Dwellers since it is such a handy way of dealing with the problem!


----------



## Vaz

No, no, best unit for Blood Knights is

Vampire Lord, Red Fury, Death Knight, Blooddrinker, Talisman of Protection, or Bloody Hauberk with perhaps the Other Tricksters.
Wight Lord, with AP Banner (it's all comers you see)
Knight unit with Sword of Might and Banner of Strigos. Munches any thing, probably the premier cavalry unit in the game, aside from Lore of Light + Bloodcrushers (or Regening Rhinox Cavalry).


----------



## bitsandkits

Hmm 626 Seems your unwillingness to adapt to your opponent is your down fall, people have offered up sounds advice and all you seem to want to do is blame the skaven being "broken" rather than change your "theme" or spend money. If you going to play people who exploit an armies advantage but your not willing to adapt to reduce or rid them of the advantage why come here and ask for advice?

I have always been of the mind that i have double or more worth of points so i can change my army to face different armies on the hop, people now seem to only purchase to some form of set list, its always 2000 points of blah blah with no optional units available, you should have at least two lists available to you for casual/club play, one for dealing with armies of skaven slaves (as they concern you so much) and one for taking on all comers, this would be my minimum start point.


----------



## neilbatte

> This goes back to the point that I shouldn't be forced to waste 1000+ pts just to deal with slaves! Besides, unless you take a unit of at least 8 knights, plus the 2 characters, you have to kill every single rank otherwise the unit is auto-steadfast! (and you WILL be shot to shit!)


Spending a shed load of points to take slaves is a waste but you do realise that if it punches a hole in their battle line the hordes are to unweildy to react and you can normally then get to the bits of the Skaven lists that will win the game for you.

Most games can be won without destroying all of your opponents army and if you can avoid a few of the slave units or just throw a few summonned units to disrupt them then they become nothing more than slightly mobile scenery.


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

neilbatte said:


> Spending a shed load of points to take slaves is a waste but you do realise that if it punches a hole in their battle line the hordes are to unweildy to react and you can normally then get to the bits of the Skaven lists that will win the game for you.
> 
> Most games can be won without destroying all of your opponents army and if you can avoid a few of the slave units or just throw a few summonned units to disrupt them then they become nothing more than slightly mobile scenery.


So true, my little stunties aren't exactly nimble but my answer was to have a horde of longbeard rangers that went around his silly slave line, killed everything that was going to be a threat, turned around and faced the slaves from their own board side and held them there till the 20 Hammerers could chop their way through the rear. All for just under 600 pts.


----------

