# WoC 2000 choices



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

I know people keep saying screens of warhounds are good. I just bought a batallion today, should I get another? I mean I dont know if ill use a second 20 marauders or the other 10 warhounds, though I do know ill use the 5 knights and the 12 warriors.

also, would a giant be worth it atall? or should I save that money and spend it all on Commands / more core?

also which Mark would be best for the whole army to use? (im trying to make it a one mark army


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Chances are fairly big that you will use those extra Warhounds too.
120 pts for 4 5hound-units is a brilliant way of reducing shooting damage, a lot more so then only 2 5hound-units. The Marauders on the other hand is a wildcard though....
Marauders have their times they shine, but also their times of complete uselessness. You can always equip the 2 units differently, so one with LA+SH and one with GW/Flails so you can play with either one you feel like 

On the other hand the Marauder Horsemens are solid additions to most WoC armies, and most likely something you will want to include anyway.
Giants are hit/miss. They tend to absorb a lot of shots but quite often die on the way over the board...


Regarding the whole Mark of Whatnot detail its kind of hard to say because different things benefit more/less from the various marks. This specially holds true if you want to have Sorcerers, since if they take a mark then they are limited to their patron gods lore:read: 
As a general rules of thumbs its bad to make a "all of the same mark WoC army", simply because you limit yourself to sub-par choices at various places, and this is not at all encouraged:no:


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

ok then what marks suit what better? Nurgle on Lord, maybe on the caddy, Khorne on Lance Knights etc?

Also chariot would it be worth it to make a chariot then give 2 knight squads to make them 6 and 7 (the 6 having a mounted lord with it probably)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nurgle on the Knights with Lances, give them the Rage Banner.

Chariots, despite their equivalent low cost compared to Dragon Ogres and Knights, do not have any where near an equivalent amount of damage. For example, Khornate Chariots cost 150, but have really poor damage- maximum 7 Str 5 Hits from Impacts, 4 Str 5 from the Warriors, and 4 S4 from the horses. That grants a "mighty" 15 Max attacks, but it falls down at anything mid armour +, and is random at best. 

Dragon Ogres on the other hand, cost 251pts, but have 10 S7 Attacks, and munch straight through enemy armour, while Khornate/Rage Banner'd Knights hit in at a tasty 300 points, but are equally capable of taking on anything.

Knights are meta gamed best all rounders, but I like the stability of Dragon Ogres myself (12 wounds). It depends.

On the caddy, if in a unit without MoK/MoS, give it MoS. It's got the handy little Lash spell which can block entire units, as well as granting the entire unit pseudo ItP. MoN only grants -1 WS; in a unit the -1 BS is lost. MoS is the best "all-round", but compared to someone who learns to maximise strengths/lower weaknesses of the other marks (cost, frenzy) etc will dominate the MoS, especially with the Will of Chaos Rule.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

thanks for the thoughts Vas, you answered my chariot question nicely. Ill just have to make due with 3 Knight Units, or making a "war shrine" being pulled by horses just for SnG

also for the extra points if you build the knights with MoN + BoR with haliberds, they have far more attacks, with 1 more WS, though 1 less str on the charge... they DO however have their nice armor save of 1+


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Halberds? You mean lances? You can't take Halberds on Knights.

You have the option of Ensorcelled Weapons and Lances - EW's give you 3 Magical S5 Attacks at all times with that set up, while Lances give you 3 Mundane S6 Attacks. It depends purely if you can guarantee you get the charge (i.e against Undead/ItP units), in which case lances are better, or if you can't, or are against almost entire T3/Ethereal armies, then EW's are better.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Khornate chariots gets more attacks than that:

Frenzy now affects the entire chariot, riders and steeds.

This gives you on impact:
1d6+1 S5 hits
6 S5 Attacks
4 S4 Attacks

Knights get 2 attacks each, 3 for the champ for 300pts, for a total of 11 S5 attacks, versus 10S5 attacks on impact and 4 S4. For HALF the points. If you want to compare them you are best to compare them equally, that is two chariots against one unit of knights.

Giving you around 20 S5 attacks and 8 S4 attacks on impact, versus 11. Combine that with the T5 of the chariot and a 3+ save (which is comparable) and suddenly you see that the chariots are quite cost effective in all cases except where S7 weapons are riding around.

Even in 'static' combat the chariots are better. 12 S5 attacks and 8 S4 attacks versus 11 S5.

T5 is also better protection against most enemies, the only downside to the chariot is that it's an old model and the knights look cool, oh and the chariot can't march.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The chariot of course can be turned to matchwood by a single cannonball 

Tzeench on the knights with a banner can give you a 4+ ward against any shooting, and if you save 1 knight its paid for itself. Lances do look better on knights as well


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

NagashKhemmler said:


> Khornate chariots gets more attacks than that:
> 
> Frenzy now affects the entire chariot, riders and steeds.
> 
> ...


just to intagrate your own logic there Nagash: chariots are effectively 2 Knights and the chariot, the chariot has scythes. 

without a mark on either the chariot has the following:

D6+1 str 5
4 str 5
2 str 4

A Knight squad of 5 has (with EW):

11 str 5 attacks
5 str 4 attacks

If you apply MoK to both

Chariot:
D6+1 str 5
6 str 5
4 str 4

Knights:
16 str 5
10 str 4

now: you have to also apply, that the chariots d6+1 str 5 hits are ONLY ON THE CHARGE, then factor in survivability, one good hit from the right kind of weapon can Kill a chariot in one hit, it will only weaken the knights abit, also the chariot has a, what, 3+ armor save? knights have a 1+



Barnster said:


> The chariot of course can be turned to matchwood by a single cannonball
> 
> Tzeench on the knights with a banner can give you a 4+ ward against any shooting, and if you save 1 knight its paid for itself. Lances do look better on knights as well


MoK does better for the extra attacks imo since you get bonus attacks on the horses too. Also Lances dont seem that good, whats the point in taking them? mundane str 6 hits only on the charge, then down to str 4 in subsequent rounds? if they are charged all of a sudden you wasted the extra points for the lances. EW = free


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

NagashKhemmler said:


> Khornate chariots gets more attacks than that:
> 
> Frenzy now affects the entire chariot, riders and steeds.
> 
> ...


Sorry, forgot that Chaos Warriors on Chariots had 2 Attacks now. My bad.



> Knights get 2 attacks each, 3 for the champ for 300pts, for a total of 11 S5 attacks, versus 10S5 attacks on impact and 4 S4. For HALF the points. If you want to compare them you are best to compare them equally, that is two chariots against one unit of knights.


Fair do's. If you want to compare them equally - Chariots are slow as fuck. They can't march, and move slower than Chaos Warriors, of which a 6x2 Great Weapon unit hits harder and last's longer. Yes, you don't have the 14" Charge, but the 7" march against a canny opponent, and you can't even have a second turn charge. 



> Giving you around 20 S5 attacks and 8 S4 attacks on impact, versus 11. Combine that with the T5 of the chariot and a 3+ save (which is comparable) and suddenly you see that the chariots are quite cost effective in all cases except where S7 weapons are riding around.


Except where any amount of shooting. Even 4 T5 wounds with the armour save won't survive against quality shooting, or when the charge is denied - pretty much all the time.



> Even in 'static' combat the chariots are better. 12 S5 attacks and 8 S4 attacks versus 11 S5.


 No opponent will ever take on two chariots simultaneously with a charge - that point is invalid.



> T5 is also better protection against most enemies, the only downside to the chariot is that it's an old model and the knights look cool, oh and the chariot can't march.


Considering you're in an already slow list, Dragon Ogres (S7), and the numerous benefits, particularly lances/magic weapons, and Magic Standards, regardless of the cost fully outweigh chariots in ALL respects in the chaos mortal list.

To KA's point on Lances - I took my time to get away from the idea that Lances were a "downgrade" from EW's, but they've proven to be a tournament winner. Dwarves and Orcs suddenly look a lot less tough when their T4/4+ Armour Save is completely removed and wounded on a 2+ with 11 S6 Attacks. Dragon Ogres can be pretty utilitarian if you kit them out, costing 275 for 3, with Champ, GW and AHW's (meaning either 13 S5 Mundane, which beats a chariot charge, or 10 S7 which beats all but Raged Knights charge, (thanks to the equalizing effect of the MoN, meaning even some heroes get hit on 3's - Saurus Scar vets with the Burning Blade suddenly become less scary.))

If you learn how to shield and block, you very soon get 11 S6 and 10 S4 Attacks, which hits harder than the single Chariot which your opponent will allow to hit home.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vas, to be fair, MoN only reduces their WS when THEY attack


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nope, when in base contact. Depends how you read it, but I've never had a complaint when I showed them the rules. An enemy unit targetting the model with it is at -1 WS when in base contact. When in base contact with an enemy unit, you are targetting them, so provided they aren't in contact with an enemy unit, they are at -1 WS.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

but the rules still state "when an enemy unit is targeting the model" thus meaning during their turn. Ive been over this with officials and alot of people who play non friendly games (tourny games) will say it only effects when they attack

ALSO, read the FAQ

"When rolling to hit against a model with the
Mark of Nurgle, the attacker suffers -1 to its
Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill, to a
minimum of 1."


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Status update: Failhammer has just lost another long time fan with its rulings that no longer make sense. 

So much for returning back to enjoy the new game. If the return to percentages carries on, and forces me to start playing horde armies and by a single model for £1 instead of the 50p, then it's fully over.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

well what makes sense about you hitting them better from being rotten and diseased?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> well what makes sense about you hitting them better from being rotten and diseased?


The point is this:
when you read MoN in the WoC book it says that:


> bla bla shooting and -1 Weapon skill when in base contact with the bearer


thus meaning that before the Errata MoN actually reduced the enemies WS when in B2B. For some reason they decided that that was not fair so they errata'd the hell out of it to "enemies attacking a MoN model has -1 WS when rolling for its/their attacks" instead, thus making the mark more or less useless.

Now I do know that it does give BS based shooting -1 to hit still, but the shots that are really dangerous aint BS based anyway (read cannons, stone throwers, Organ Guns and similar). So the mark is basically nerfed into uselessness. 

Q: What do you mean useless?
A: Before the Errata it affected units with 1 higher WS, equal WS and ½roundup WS. Now it basically only affects 3 units in the game, the 3 ones with higher WS.
If we look at Chaos Warriors thats quite a difference. There are 3 units with WS 6 in the game, War Dancers, Swordmasters and Chosen. They are still affected and only hit you on 4+ with MoN instead of 3+. The huge ocean of WS 5 units though nowdays ignore it, and that means that your butchers from the north hit them on 4+ in combat, whilst before the Errata you hit them on 3+ which is a vast improvement from 4+, right? The crappy WS 3 units will still only hit you on 5+ with the mark, but then again those are generally useless fighters and thus of no concern.

Weapon Skill is damn important in WHFB, and I still personally believe that Chaos Warriors should have WS6, like back in the days. MoN more or less made it that way again, until Errata of doom ruined it.
I agree with Vaz on that fact, the WoC Errata took a lot of the fun out of WoC as an army since it was more or less only a nerfbat-hit on them.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the errata just clarified the book, the book says, and I quote: 

An Enemy unit Targeting a model with Mark of Nurgle is at -1 Balistic Skill for shooting attacks and -1 Weapon skill when in base contact with the unit. 

Thus the Errata "nerfed" the perceptions of people but the errata really just clarified how they WANTED it to be played from the begining. if you notice, the begining of the sentence states the main condition, an enemy targeting a model with mark of nurgle, then to lose the -1 WS, they added a second condition of it needing base contact.


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

Does anyone have a link to this mystical errata? I have yet to see it, unless I missed it in the Warriors of Chaos FAQ...

Anyone I play with (friendly games, mind you) accept and condone the -1WS applying to the "enemy" and the potential benefit for Chaos. It hasn't proven to be overpowered nor underwhelming in any way. For that many points, it serves to make sense that it would function as such, given my and my friends' experiences.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Ascendant Valor said:


> Does anyone have a link to this mystical errata? I have yet to see it, unless I missed it in the Warriors of Chaos FAQ....


It is the left hand column on page 1 in the WoC errata, first point.


And my point still stands KhainiteAssassin.
Regardless of it is a clearing up or not, it is a nerf. If they would have wanted it to only work on enemies attacks on the chaos warriors but not when the warriors attack back then it should have been written that way from the start.
Now it only feels like "uuh this is actually good, lets kill that".

Then again I really dont care jack shit. Fantasy is on ice till 8th, and by the looks of the rumours, due for a long ice age...


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Some of the greatest parts of fantasy do seem like they'll get a nerfing, they seem to be trying to make it more like 40k (less tactics, less thinking).

Most of the rumours seem to say that you can basically always fight back in combat unless you get really badly slaughtered, this means that static combat rez will become worthless as damage output goes through the roof negating it.

Magic isn't as bad as it makes the melee orientated armies a bit more possible once again, but the huge level of random may become a bit annoying (that turn when you get 2 dispel dice and he gets 12 power dice?!?!).

Chaos are one of the weaker armies as it is, I don't see why they saw fit to nerf hammer them at all...

WORST of all, shooting armies are already horribly overpowered in fantasy and I hear rumours that they will be making all ranged attacks shoot in two ranks =/


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