# Brets and shooting



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I played my first fantasy battle the other day against magic/ shooty dark elves. it was 2250 points and though it was a good battle an ended in a draw of sorts (we had to finish early)

Now the dark elves laid down a hail of fire on my all knights list whilst cold one knights were rampant as they had the always strikes first banner. Also I found that darkelves were all weapon skill 5 which really suckered my knights charge against the cold ones.

Now i really would like any brett players advice on how to survive shooting and how to deal with enemy cavalry such as cold ones.

Thanks for your time


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

OK, lets take a look. Firstly, the Cold One Knights. They should only be st. 3 if you get the charge, st. 4 for the cold one. overall, even if 5 are attacking you, you should only lose about one guy on average (going by the stat books for them, I can't remember if they're frenzied as well). If you have a lance of 9 knights charging them, you should slaughter them anyway. Cold ones only have a 7" movement, so you should always get the charge on them, if you're careful. 

Meanwhile, if you're getting charged, yes you'll have problems, but your knights are cheaper, try to sucker them into a better position for you, even if you have to use another unit as bait. Or use a mega unit, with an out numbering bonus and a couple of ranks, warbanner, BSB, Virtue of Duty or some combination, you should be able to see them off no matter how nasty they are.

As for fire power, trust me, set up a unit of skirmishing archers in front of your main lances of knights. Firstly it stops their first turn of fire against your knights, and directs it to some cheap skirmishers, secondly their 360 degree vision means their scouts can't set as close as they'd like to march block you. His repeater crossbows will be hitting on 6s against your skirmishers, and even if they die, it's worth it. Oh, and on the first turn they'd have to move to hit you (only 24" range), so they'd be at 6s or 7 to hit.

Also, remember repeater crossbows are only st. 3! this means it's like rain to your knights, who should be able to mostly shrug off the shots that hit them. A small knight unit with the banner of chalons can really help with crossbow hunting, or a unit of pegasus knights. Send them out hunting, threatening bolt throwers and small archer units, or getting lucky side charges.

Anyhow, these are a few ideas for you! hope they help somewhat.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

All Dark Elves WS5? He's pulling the wool over your eyes, my friend.

I have it on rather good authority that they are WS4 (warriors, crossbowmen, Corsairs, Dark Riders, Witch Elves, Reaper Bolt Thrower Crew, War Hydra and crew, and Sorceresse), and even some (Harpies) are WS3.

Cold One Knights are only S5 on the charge. Regardless of ASF, if you charge, they should be finished. 6 WS5 S4 attacks and 5 WS3 S4 attacks will kill perhaps one, which with the lance formation will still ensure at least 8 S5 Attacks.

To deal with COK, Trebuchet. That's how to finish them. Alternatively, get a load of Grail Knights, and challenge them.

Shooting shouldn't be so effective either against 2+ Armour Saves, though. It sounds like your army composition could use a bit of work. Do you have a lot of points in special units, and heroes? Could you post your army list please?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Vaz said:


> All Dark Elves WS5? He's pulling the wool over your eyes, my friend.
> 
> I have it on rather good authority that they are WS4 (warriors, crossbowmen, Corsairs, Dark Riders, Witch Elves, Reaper Bolt Thrower Crew, War Hydra and crew, and Sorceresse), and even some (Harpies) are WS3.
> 
> To deal with COK, Trebuchet. That's how to finish them. Alternatively, get a load of Grail Knights, and challenge them.


The Khanite stuff is all WS5, and they're usually the combat units, so sometimes it seems that way. WS5 is still not that scary though, I agree.

Trebuchets are good, but I'd never rely on them for anything, and they should keep their focus on hyrdras and chariots. a decent knights unit is definitely the way to kill them.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48042

there is a link to my list
the huge unit with the characters managed to get me the draw so im not really wanting to loose it if i could help it
It kicked its way through 3 sorcerors and 20 or thirty dark elf warriors


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

> Cold One Knights are only S5 on the charge. Regardless of ASF, if you charge, they should be finished. 6 WS5 S4 attacks and 5 WS3 S4 attacks will kill perhaps one, which with the lance formation will still ensure at least 8 S5 Attacks.


Eh? You mean S6, right? Cold one Knights are S4, +2 for lance.

Aside from that, yes. You're right. Although seeing as they have hatred it really makes it up for them.

Anyhow, the problem at hand is killing DE's so i'll get back to that. Cold one knight aren't actually all they're cracked up to be. They're likely to die under a single charge of grail knights, especially if said grail knights have a character in their unit. 

As for your trebuchet (if you choose to use one), I wouldn't bank on it hitting anything. For starters, stonethrowers are really hard to aim. Secondly, they're inclined to be cut to pieces by magic and Harpies. Finally, even if you were to hit a character OR a hydra, both of them a very likely to have a ward save, AGAIN ruining your shooting phase. In short, nope. Not worth it. Invest your points in your combat phase, that's what brets are good at.

Personally, I think skirmishing archers fall into the same category as your trebuchet. Avoid. For starters, they move too slowly for your knights and will just get in the way. Secondly, yes, your archers will die. But before they do they will panic and potentially flee into your knights. thirdly, a solid charge from dark elves will crush them and then they'll just overrun into your knights anyway. No matter what, you're handing them the charge.

My final advice is that DE warriors *will* crumble if you get the charge, and so will witch elves. If you charge, you should win against most DE infantry (provided they don't have characters in them!), even executioners. Try and keep them on clear ground as much as you can and try not to be surrounded, even shades can cut down knights like that. Just remember that Bret's have the advantage when it comes to armor and mobility.

I hope some of this has been of help to you, and feel free to criticize all you like ^^.

Tatsu


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Tatsumaki said:


> Eh? You mean S6, right? Cold one Knights are S4, +2 for lance.
> 
> Aside from that, yes. You're right. Although seeing as they have hatred it really makes it up for them.
> 
> ...


Cold One knights - a base unit of 9 KE should beat a unit of of 5 COK on the charge easily enough. characters in there are a different matter though - then you should bring in the Grail Knights definitely...

I'll have to disagree with you on a few thinigs though:
Trebuchets - while they don't usually do much damage usually, because they are hard to hit with, they do allow you to harry your opponent, rather than just taking his fire. It also gives them something to focus on for their harpies/flanking units, rather than having them try to marchblock/rear charge your knights. And then, once in a while you'll get a beautiful shot which makes it all worthwhile 

Bowmen - I always use them to great effect, they don't get in the way of your knights, unless you're planning for a first turn charge. Simply run them out of the way if need be - they can run 8", so that isn't a problem. They have saved me more times then I can count. If they flee, they cause no panic to knights, so I always flee them right through my knights if they have a charge declared against them - use them right, and you'll never allow overrun. They also make good bait if your opponent rashly declares a charge at the end of his range - flee them through your knights, and counter charge next turn. You are never "handing them the charge"  70 points is great value to stop even a single RBT shot, and you can occasionally kill something with them. They also always hold a table quarter for me, worth more VPs than their cost.

Just my take on the facts


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

[responds to Maddermax]

I'm not sure i would really want to rear charge with my harpies. March blocking, definitely, harpies are made for it. But rear charges with harpies don't deny rank bonus, and they risk being tied up in a combat that they're not prepared to win, then they die .

I don't know about the trebuchet.... Everytime that I play chaos warriors with a hell cannon, I miss every shot. This and every time I get the distance correct, it scatters off and does nothing. It could just be my bad luck, but I would rather not have something this unreliable in my army.

On the other hand, this is Bret's we're talking about. That is about the highest strength attack you can get, and pretty much the only way I can think of in Bret's you can deal deal with really hardcore units like Steam Tanks.

As for the bowmen... They're really not for me. The aren't very likely to actually shoot anyone and they're far too exposed for my liking. and 8" run has nothing on your knight's 14" (or 16", depending). It doesn't make sense to me to bring an almost all-cavalry army, then put foot troops out in front of them (theme wise i can totally see a brettonian using their peasants as meat shields for their knights).

I'll admit that I'm a DE player, not Bret. This isn't me thinking about what i would want to use against DE, but more what i would be afraid of facing as a player myself. I could tell you it would be a nightmare (ha ha knight-mare!?) to try and face down knights with my Corsairs or Warriors.

Again, I hope some of this has been of help to you, and feel free to criticize all you like ^^.

Tatsu


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