# Question regarding legion origins



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Has it been revealed where each legion drew its initial recruits from? IE the Nightlords were originally drawn from the prisons of Terra.

Furthermore the re-breather that Mortarion wore, was it out of necessity due to his longs not functioning? Or did he wear the device out of free choice, and could have removed it any time he wanted?


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Lux said:


> Has it been revealed where each legion drew its initial recruits from? IE the Nightlords were originally drawn from the prisons of Terra.


Thousand Sons - Achaemenid Empire (Persians).
Luna Wolves - Cthonia.

The Death Guard, Night Lords & Iron Hands all drew their early recruits from Albia (Albania).



There's more on Lexicanium


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

To my memmory, Morty's armor gassed him with the fumes of Barbarus for that homely feeling.

Yup, checked.

Wisps of white gas curled from the neckbrace of Mortarion's wargear, captured philtres of fumes from the air of Barbarus. Garro caught the scent of them and for an instant his sense memory took him back to the grim, clouded planet with its lethal skies.

Page 30 in Flight of the Eisenstein.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Ah all this time I had thought that Mortarion wore the re-breather for survivals sake, in that his lungs were permanently damaged during his fight against his father at the mountain top.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes! They're in the HH FW books; I'll dig them out now - we only have 8 so far. My observations and theories on where these might be in yellow because.

III - Emperor's Children; After being defeated by Thunder Regiments, as tribute, the nobles of Europa (Threeguessesville) provided their finest youth; including (possibly apocryphally) sons of the nobles houses to give the Legion its name. House Loculus of Komarg are said to have been particularly zealous. Komarg; Kromag, Cro-Magnon; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-magnon is how I see it
VI - Space Wolves; Kept Hidden, see Salamanders. Three Guesses otherwise though.
VIII - Night Lords; Mentioned to have recruits from Old Albia Majority came from subterranean prison sinks; the "Nights children"; those born in the darkness, rather than put into the Prison sink by choice.
X - Iron Hands; Mentioned to have recruits from Old Albia. Qavitine (Cavity? Unknown, possibly some immense hole; Mariana Trench?) Plate and Solus Stellax and similar "blocs"; Solus was Sicilian, but also might have to do with the Sun. Cavitine is Italian language, so could well be Mediterranean.
XII - War Hounds/World Eaters; No bias towards recruitment, although psychological screening for inherently violent and obsessively competitive recruits during pre-selection was hinted at; perhaps providing the test results to other legions possibly. May however be apocryphal though.
XIV - Dusk Raiders/Death Guard; Old Albia (Albion; Aka Ingerland Motherfucker/Britain), much more so than NL+IH. 
XVI - Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus; Jutigran Bowl and Samsatian Sub-plate (Jutland and Sarmatia/Iran)
XVII - Imperial Heralds/Word Bearers; Recruited from the sons of defeated foes (even then they were losers)
XVIII - Salamanders - Along with the VIth (SW) and XXth (AL), the information is kept secret. Why this would be the case with the legions which appear with Animals, it is not clear.
XXth - Alpha Legion; Kept Hidden, see Salamanders.

Others noted

Astelan (I; Dark Angels) was born on Sibran Steppes Siberian


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

And regarding Mortarion to even survive on Barbarus at the highest peak, Mortarion had a rebreather; he needed one to assault his Daemon "father"'s fortress, but even that was destroyed by the toxins, "as his flesh blistered and the tissues of his lungs and throat began to liquify and slough away, choking him"


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So is that why mortarion wore a rebreather post of the event? Because his lungs and throat melted away? Or did his lungs heal, and he merely wears it as a reminder?


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Considering how good the primarchs are at healing damage, I would say the later.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Is there a compilation that list all the instances of primarchs healing from injury? Im curious if certain primarchs were better at it than others.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Sanguinius had both legs broken by Ka'bandha during Signus Prime and regenerated not too long after.

Lorgar took a titan plasma weapon to the face, survived and healed. Though the warp certainly aided him.

Vulkan does nothing but superheal injury during Vulkan Lives, even death.

I recall reading of Horus being stunned by a plasma blast and the Emperor guarded him while he recovered, and later repaying the favor by hacking the arm of a greenskin trying to choke his father.

When Horus and Alpharius meets, Alpharius shrugs off bolter shots while unarmored.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bear in mind that the Fumes of Barbarus were Chaos empowered, Daemon fumes. Any damage done may not have completely healed in the normal manner.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Barbarous had xenos overlords IIRC


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Xenos they were. Apparently their specific name has been struck from Imperial records.

They were three times as tall as a man, wore rusted armor, and were thin to the point of gauntness.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

I think you will find that old Albia refers to old Albion. Eg; British Isles rather than Albania.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The White Scars Terran recruits tended to be selected almost exclusively from the Pan-Pacific areas, those of asian origin.


----------



## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Sanguinius had both legs broken by Ka'bandha during Signus Prime and regenerated not too long after.
> 
> Lorgar took a titan plasma weapon to the face, survived and healed. Though the warp certainly aided him.
> 
> ...


you forget Roboute Guilleman who walked around in space tearing heads of for quite a while before going back inside, without so much as some irritation to show for it.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Fairly sure there were chaos links to it though; http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarus

Seems to agree but I'll dig out the exact quote later.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> smurf.


We can ignore anything he can do do to the fact he is the smurf's primarch they probably will have fluff of him bathing in a sun.




> barb's xenos


It doesn't say what they were. As all evidence of WHAT they were has been erased, they could be mutants, xenos, or mutant xenos.


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Yes! They're in the HH FW books; I'll dig them out now - we only have 8 so far. My observations and theories on where these might be in yellow because.
> 
> III - Emperor's Children; After being defeated by Thunder Regiments, as tribute, the nobles of Europa (Threeguessesville) provided their finest youth; including (possibly apocryphally) sons of the nobles houses to give the Legion its name. House Loculus of Komarg are said to have been particularly zealous. Komarg; Kromag, Cro-Magnon; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-magnon is how I see it
> 
> ...


The first is clear (EC and European Nobles connection), and I think it is important in understanding the Sons of Horus founding. To me, it seems they are a mixture of a little of all (Like we see in those regions sort of), to help make Horus and his legions seem more of the "here and now" type deal. My question is what time period? I keep thinking WW1 and WW2 German military also as their inspiration (Like mixing in symbols for effect etc... That Eye/Deaths head/Swastika) not in the same sense of Death Korps of Krieg, if you follow me. For instance, I don't know if this is old or new fluff, but many have said on these forums they seem to pull from a diverse mix of sources in history, coupled with a certain personality of being archtype villians and their leader Horus (Which begs more insights into the primarch since now we know the legions gain their personality from them).

Thoughts?


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Lux said:


> Is there a compilation that list all the instances of primarchs healing from injury? Im curious if certain primarchs were better at it than others.


Certain legions are better at it than others, i believe a codex stated that the sons of Vulkan and Mortarion were the greatest in that regard, immunologically and in regards to resistance against radiation too.

Hence i would assume that the primarchs of the respective legions would also be better in those same regards.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

A minor point, but it's worth noting that the Alpha Legion weren't founded until "a few decades" before Alpharius was discovered. So they played no part in the Unification Wars or early Great Crusade.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I have read that each primarch and subsequently their legions had unique traits, an example of this would be that Vulkan is stated to have the highest damage soak (feels no pain). 

Yet I have begun to wonder what was the difference between the Death Guard and the Salamanders? Both were described as being incredibly resilient to damage, extremely high endurance (the khan describes mortarion as being the personification of relentlessness), and both legions favored the use of extremely heavy armor.

They just seem incredibly similar to me in their style of warfare, as well as their biological traits.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't think there is a good way to quantify the levels of their resilience. Sure both legions were unusually tough, but unless we're just describing them on the 1 - 10 scale of warhammer stats I doubt there's a good frame of reference.

And the 1 - 10 scale really isn't descriptive enough to answer your question.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> A minor point, but it's worth noting that the Alpha Legion weren't founded until "a few decades" before Alpharius was discovered. So they played no part in the Unification Wars or early Great Crusade.


I think Massacre has now changed this info regarding the formation of the Alpha Legion as per the attached image.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> you forget Roboute Guilleman who walked around in space tearing heads of for quite a while before going back inside, without so much as some irritation to show for it.


Nah, in _Betrayer_ it mentions there's some "fine threading of dark veins along [Guilliman's] throat and cheek..." from his time out in the void.

Also keep in mind that apparently around the ships there's some limited atmosphere as mentioned in _Know no Fear_.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> Nah, in _Betrayer_ it mentions there's some "fine threading of dark veins along [Guilliman's] throat and cheek..." from his time out in the void.
> 
> Also keep in mind that apparently around the ships there's some limited atmosphere as mentioned in _Know no Fear_.


I wonder if Guilliman's face and throat healed from those injuries, I know another injury he suffered was when fighting Lorgar. Lorgar hits Guilliman in the temple with his crozius, of which he then states "You will bear that scar till the day you die".

I know Curze also had a scar upon his neck some time into the future, even though he incurred that scar years and or decades earlier when fighting the Lion.

Another display of healing was when all of Angron's face, and the skin of his body had been peeled from him. This happened when he was buried under the collapsed city during Betrayer, as he dragged himself through jagged rocks and debris 50 miles underground his skin was shorn off.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It seems the parallels between loyalist, and traitor legions is being made more clear. The legions are not clones of one another, but it seems there are two legions that inhabit each sector of warfare. 

Raven Guard - Night Lords 
(Infiltration, hit and run)

Salamanders - Death Guard 
(Foot slogging infantry, heavily armored - focus on endurance/resilience over speed)

Ultramarines - Word Bearers 
(Creators of vast empires, masters of logistics and administration)

Imperial Fist - Iron Warriors 
(Siege warfare, and defensive fortifications - both were masters of both fields of expertise)

Blood Angels - World Eaters 
(Shock warfare, emphasis upon brutal melee)

Dark angels - Sons of Horus 
(Both masters of strategy, and amazing tacticians. There primary difference lies in their levels of charisma, where Johnson is more methodically calculative Horus by contrast is charismatically intuitive.)

Space Wolves - Thousand Sons 
(These two legions are parallels of one another in the sense that they both fulfill the role of "special forces" - a small yet highly elite legion for a specific purpose rather than broad application).

White Scars - Alpha Legion 
(Highly mobile legions, both specialize in being autonomous of the Imperial Empire in their operations.)

Iron Hands - Emperors Children 
(Two legions that excelled in broad application of expertise, these two legions could be deployed into any theatre of warfare and excel. Would they be the absolute best for any theatre of war? No. However they would be second best in any theatre of warfare and that is the role they were intended to fulfill. There differences lies in how each legion sought perfection, the Iron Hands sought it through technology while the Emperor's children sought it through mantra and military doctrine.)


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> I think you will find that old Albia refers to old Albion. Eg; British Isles rather than Albania.


That would be Albyon. 



The Night Lords and Iron Hands also drew recruits from Old Albia.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Eleaxus said:


> The first is clear (EC and European Nobles connection), and I think it is important in understanding the Sons of Horus founding. To me, it seems they are a mixture of a little of all (Like we see in those regions sort of), to help make Horus and his legions seem more of the "here and now" type deal. My question is what time period? I keep thinking WW1 and WW2 German military also as their inspiration (Like mixing in symbols for effect etc... That Eye/Deaths head/Swastika) not in the same sense of Death Korps of Krieg, if you follow me. For instance, I don't know if this is old or new fluff, but many have said on these forums they seem to pull from a diverse mix of sources in history, coupled with a certain personality of being archtype villians and their leader Horus (Which begs more insights into the primarch since now we know the legions gain their personality from them).
> 
> Thoughts?


Not following you at all. This is information regarding the SoH is a direct quoted from the Fluff of the books dedicated to the Sons of Horus in particular, and the Legions at large. What is important in the understanding of the SoH Founding. 

The Luna Wolves were the XVI Legion, and got the name "Luna Wolves" following their assault on Luna Installations.

If you look at a map, using my suggested placement for the Jutigran Bowl (Jutland; i.e, Denmark), and Samsatian (Sarmatia/Iran), it's a massive area, incorporating Germany, Poland, Eastern Bloc Countries like Hungary, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, The Lebanon, Syria, possibly Israel... 

What exactly are you trying to state here; where the imagery of the units comes from? Considering that a shit ton of years of techno-barbarism has passed since the time before the Age of Darkness, this could be anything.

If you mean why the Designers themselves designed the SoH to have plumes, spikes, etc, that is down to Cthonic influence, rather than Terran. The Terran Legionaires from the Luna Wolves have a distinctly cleaner appearance, in regards to less tribal marking etc. The Spikes etc are due to Cthonic markings.



locustgate said:


> We can ignore anything he can do do to the fact he is the smurf's primarch they probably will have fluff of him bathing in a sun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fuck are you talking about. The Ultramarines in 30K have none of the wankery that's attributed to them in 40K. The SoH are the only ones who have a similar reputation in 30K, but that's more due to how Horus is portrayed. On the other hand, they have some damn right brutal capabilities in their rules which goes some what to explaining a bit about their capabilities.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> Raven Guard - Night Lords
> (Infiltration, hit and run)


Nope. Raven Guard warfare is distinct in that it uses Infiltration to achieve its end-game. The NL use Infiltration to inflict horrors upon the targets. Raven Guard are the special forces, NL the Psy-Ops.



> Salamanders - Death Guard
> (Foot slogging infantry, heavily armored - focus on endurance/resilience over speed)


Where do you get that from? Pre-Mortarion, they were rounded, but Mortarion himself preferred the use of Infantry; true. The Salamanders though; they preferred short range engagements; also "The Salamanders Legion also maintained and manufactured a substantial armoury of heavy vehicles and other engines of war equal in number and diversity to that of a far larger legion. This armoury showed bias towards tanks, armoured rams, gunships and mobile support weapons over static artillery, light skimmers and rapid attack vehicles." 



> Ultramarines - Word Bearers
> (Creators of vast empires, masters of logistics and administration)
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

:goodpost: sums it up pretty much perfectly.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I wouldn't try and attribute tittles from modern militaries to Warhammer 40k. The Night Lords aren't psy ops. Their a terrorist organization. Go back and read the fluff. Committing acts of terror to instill terror in your enemy is terrorism. All of the Legions specialized in something and therefore all have their uses. There are few Legions you could deem as truly specialized:

Night Lords-Terrorists
Alpha Legion-Espionage
World Eaters- Indiscriminate Butchers
Thousand Sons- Psyker Sorcerers 
Death Guard- Biological/Chemical/Radiological Warfare

After these legions all other legions can pretty much be interchanged for missions. No other legion can or would do the missions these units are assigned. Everyone was good at close quarters battle. Everyone could sneak behind enemy lines. Maybe the Fists and Iron Warriors had the monopoly on seige warfare. Everything else is just a matter of preference.The Units I've listed would be the only ones willing to execute missions of their specialty.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Hmm that is a very interesting way to see it, I suppose I just do not want to see that a majority of the legions are so similar that they can be exchanged in any scenario and yield the same results. I like to think that if the Emperor wanted a vast secondary empire built, composed of highly efficient, loyal, and stable worlds, he would assign eithger Lorgar or Guiliman. No other primarch was able to build as large an empire as Lorgar or Guilliman, nor were they able to grow their legion size to the size those two primarchs did. 

Lorgar's worlds were the most loyal worlds in all of the imperium, they were highly efficient at providing tithes, and were amazingly stable. Post of Lorgar's correction he conquered worlds faster than any other primarch, and he grew his legion to anywhere between 200,000-270,000 (not a random number is from the books). 

Also the Wolves were bred from their creation to be the police force of the imperium, they were bred with biological loyalty, as well as the capability to exert limitation upon their actions. 

Thus I would also add Lorgar, Russ, and Guilliman to that list of specialty legions.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> I wouldn't try and attribute tittles from modern militaries to Warhammer 40k. The Night Lords aren't psy ops. Their a terrorist organization. Go back and read the fluff. Committing acts of terror to instill terror in your enemy is terrorism.


No, that's PsyOps. Terrorism is a form of PsyOps. A mate of mine who's done "other stuff" has written a document on how to have soldiers cope with it in modern combat hotspots. Terrorism is form of PsyOps, it is controlling and reinforcing the mindset that is beneficial to your cause.

Had to pull down a few limbs out of trees in my time as well, I've experienced a bit about it.



> After these legions all other legions can pretty much be interchanged for missions. No other legion can or would do the missions these units are assigned. Everyone was good at close quarters battle. Everyone could sneak behind enemy lines. Maybe the Fists and Iron Warriors had the monopoly on seige warfare. Everything else is just a matter of preference.The Units I've listed would be the only ones willing to execute missions of their specialty.


But you see, they all had the capability of doing so; using the World Eaters was a statement, as was the Night Lords. Some legions made sure that they wouldn't be given the task; DG's lack of a fully dedicated Librarius, or Salamanders refusal to use Dark Age technology. However, had the need called for it, any Legion would have been capable of committing terror aspects.

For the most parts; the "infiltration" you mention as falling under the Alpha Legions MO is terrorism as its viewed in todays press; which is effectively, military tactics against civilian population in its most simple form; civilian transport routes, communications centres, economic centres, iconographical infrastructure, subversion of funds for enemy use, limiting access to food/water/shelter.

The Night Lords "terrorism" is like what the IRA use to do; stuff like take power drills to peoples kneecaps then leave them at a hospital, wounding devices outside barracks. While it would have an effect on the populace it was designed to force the enemy into acting in certain patterns.

Predictability is key in warfare; it enables contingencies, and contingencies win wars; i.e Enemy is scared, so runs for cover in X direction over open ground. That's where I can shoot them. It's the core of every battle tactic from CQC upward; you force them into a certain position from which you already have a counter ready.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The above post regarding psy ops, has forever changed my view of the nightlords and military tactics in general. That was an amazing post.


----------



## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

locustgate said:


> We can ignore anything he can do do to the fact he is the smurf's primarch they probably will have fluff of him bathing in a sun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think thats being stupid actualy, Roboute guilleman is a primarch thus capable of extremely superhuman feats just like his brothers, you can´t just dissmiss one as you would miss part of the whole. 


in other words grow up, the Ultramarines are space marines just like the rest just because they got a bit more P&R coverage doesn't mean they get all the best and most heroic fluff.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

To be fair, Guilliman still bears 'The mark of Calth' as he calls it, his superhuman physiology either not being able to heal the marks or him refusing to let it do so. I still base his weakness from the prolonged void exposure as the reason for Kor Phaeron getting the upper hand when they met. Though Guilliman was still able to literally punch his heart out.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> To be fair, Guilliman still bears 'The mark of Calth' as he calls it, his superhuman physiology either not being able to heal the marks or him refusing to let it do so. I still base his weakness from the prolonged void exposure as the reason for Kor Phaeron getting the upper hand when they met. Though Guilliman was still able to literally punch his heart out.


I tend to agree with this more and more myself, especially after reading the book a second time. Hell, a normal person would die almost instantly doing _nothing_ exposed to the void. Guiliman was kicking ass for who knows how long out there. Even a Primarch has its limits. So yeah, I'm also inclined to think his body was still in the process of repairing void exposure damage when he faced Kor Phaeron. I also base this partly on the sheer speed difference fully fit primarchs have shown compared to regular astartes warriors and enhanced humans i.e. they can move so fast even space marines can't even follow their movements. I truly think that Kor Phaeron would have been murdered horribly, no chance of escape, if he'd faced a fully combat ready and fit Guiliman, instead of a battered one who'd just spent who knows how long fighting helmetless in the void.

As for the scars, I think he himself chose to not let those heal as a reminder of what happened at Calth and the lessons learnt. I have a similar belief with regards to Lorgar's facial scars received by Corax at Isstvan. Hell, after Isstvan Corax himself prevented his own body from healing its wounds through sheer force of will, for a period of months if I recall correctly, while he was "grieving".

It makes me wonder if a primarch's ability to heal rapidly is mentally driven to some degree. Might explain why certain injuries happening at pivotal moments emotionally etc. might leave scars where as other wounds heal perfectly. Maybe the physical scars that remain are reflective of the mental/emotional/psychological damage that injury (or scenario in which it was sustained) also caused at the time.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> It makes me wonder if a primarch's ability to heal rapidly is mentally driven to some degree. Might explain why certain injuries happening at pivotal moments emotionally etc. might leave scars where as other wounds heal perfectly. Maybe the physical scars that remain are reflective of the mental/emotional/psychological damage that injury (or scenario in which it was sustained) also caused at the time.


:goodpost:


I agree wholeheartedly with that idea.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Exactly, it's now been shown on multiple occasions with different Primarchs, that they seem to be able to stop their body from healing themselves fully. The Lion might be another case with his neck wounds from Curze. With most of the examples stemming from them keeping them as a reminder. Should also be worth noting regarding Guilliman and Kor Phaeron, that once Guilliman had some time to recover, in _Betrayer_ he went on to engage Lorgar in combat and do very well for himself, and then not be utterly destroyed when fighting Angron as well.


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The Guilliman vs Lorgar fight was pretty imbalanced to begin with, as Lorgar was extremely weakened from pouring all his strength and power into having the cosmic song reach its crescendo. 

Had Lorgar not been diverting a majority of his power into the song I feel Guiliman would have been killed than and there. Lorgar's TK has been shown to be able to tear apart a thunderhawk in mid air, smash an entire platoon of Ultramarine astartes into jelly, and to be able to blow Angron across a gigantic room in an instant (Betrayer). 

When Lorgar fought Guilliman he attempted to use his TK, and it states that his TK was weakened and barely able to knock Guilliman back to buy him time to recover. Had Lorgar's TK been at the same level of power that it was when he fought the Titan/Thunderhawk, and or when he blew Angron away effortlessly then Guilliman would have died imo.

The Chaos gods showed Lorgar that if he wanted too he could have killed Guilliman (in the vision they showed him), but doing so would have lost the traitors the way (they lost anyway, but maybe meant chaos would have lost). Lorgar clearly had powers beyond most Primarchs (save magnus), all Lorgar had to do was speak a single warp infused word (betrayer), and Guilliman would have met the same blistering power that Angron did in Lorgar's command room upon his capital ship.


----------

