# Moar Horus?



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

There's been some great Primarch portrayals in the Horus Heresy thus far, whether it's something short and distinctive (McNeill's Mortarion from _A Thousand Sons_ was good people) or spanning a novel, or even the course of several novels (ADB's Lorgar). And, of course, there have been some less-than-stellar portrayals.

They're big players, and I like to see them receive exposition. But, I've often found myself thinking about the titular Primarch, Horus. There's some Horus throwbacks in novels which explore the past, but in the present we don't see him all that much.

This isn't demanding the Siege comes faster, because I'm more excited about Imperium Secundus and the Webway War at the minute, but I wouldn't mind another Horus-centric novel.

Thoughts? Should Horus be used beyond cameos in the post-Isstvan V/pre-Siege setting? Can't say I was a fan of the execution, but I can appreciate Swallow's involvement of Horus and the XVI Legion in _Nemesis_.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Yes please. More Horus could really kick some life into the series after some of the recent books... Another Little Horus story/book by Abnett?


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

_Little Horus_ was a breath of fresh air. Still a short story no matter how you slice the cake, though.

I get the feeling Abnett wishes to work with the White Scars, and for a full Horus novel a scenario would have to be invented. Could be done nicely.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I've been advocating more Horus for a while now. It's been around (off the top of my head) 18 or 19 novels now since we've had Horus as a central character in a novel, and considering he is _the_ main character of ths series, that is unacceptable. The main reason I think, is that I don't want the series to arrive at the Siege of Terra with Horus being all Chaos-y without justifying how or why. Daemons, cultists and other chaos-monstrosities were heavily involved during the Siege, how did the corruption of the Legions reach this point? Really, the only example we've had of this is the degradation of the Emperor's Children in _Reflection Crack'd_ and _Angel Exterminatus_.

The main insight we have had into the Sons of Horus post-Isstvan is the short story _Little Horus_ and that was more concerned with the rebuilding of the Mournival rather than dealing with the corruption of the Legion. Essentially, it involved absolutley no insight into how the Sons of Horus Space Marine Legion became a _Chaos_ Space Marine Legion by the time of the Siege of Terra. 

Horus accepted the powers inherent with being aligned with Chaos, but how did the rest of his Legion accept this? How did the others justify it? Did anyone have doubts? Were there any more purges? Did most take to worshipping the Chaos Gods or just viewing them as tools? 

In short: we need more bloody insight!


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus accepted the powers inherent with being aligned with Chaos, but how did the rest of his Legion accept this? How did the others justify it? Did anyone have doubts? Were there more purges? Did most take to worshipping the Chaos Gods or just viewing them as tools?
> 
> In short: we need more insight!


You entire post summed up everything I've felt.



bobss said:


> There's been some great Primarch portrayals in the Horus Heresy thus far, whether it's something short and distinctive (McNeill's Mortarion from _A Thousand Sons_ was good people).


I actually quite disliked the portrayal of Mortarion in _A Thousand Sons_. Granted I have never read a codex in my life, just any book I can get my hands on and Lexicanum to fill in gaps I may have missed. But from his look, demeanor, physical presence, weapons, and background all make me think he is a much more direct and to the point personality. Skipping all the bullshit and only wasting words on the specific ones that need to be said. Not the grand standing we witnessed in ATS. 

That is just my personal view on him of course, and holds absolutely zero weight in the end. :laugh:


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

I voted no because so far I've found horus to be a bit dull and boring. However, they have done a great job with some of the other primarchs. Fulgrim, Puterabo and Angron have been excellent. The flip side of that is there have been some bad attempts to flesh out the primarchs. Russ and Sanguinius have been terrible. Magnus and Lorgar im undecided about. Bowboat Goolieman hasn't really had enough to warrant consideration. 


What did Horus really do in the run up to the invasion of terra? seems to me he just sent ther other legions out to do his dirty work, and I wouldnt want them just to make stuff up that didnt fit in with the rest of the story.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen74 said:


> What did Horus really do in the run up to the invasion of terra?


Another very good point which needs answering. The preparation required for the Siege of Terra was obviously a monumental task: gaining allegiences, establishing supply lines and communication networks, mustering his armies and fleets, preventing his Legions from infighting and insubordination, distracting and/or destroying prominent Imperial Legions and other armies, etc. 

But what else was he doing? Was he acquiring warp-power and learning the secrets of Chaos? By the time of the "final battle" he is well versed in warp-craft and wields vast psychic power effortlessly. How did he get from the Horus of _Galaxy in Flames_, _Betrayer_ and _Nemesis_ to the Horus of the "final battle"? Especially taking into account that in _Betrayer_ he still seems to pale in comparison to Lorgar & Magnus in that regard. 

_Nemesis_ informs us that Horus knows he will have to face the Emperor personally. He knows (possibly more than anyone) what the Emperor is capable of, does he truly believe he can stand toe-to-toe with his father and defeat him? Learning warp-craft, forging daemonic pacts and otherwise acquiring power must have been just as much a priority for him as mustering his armies for the invasion of Sol. I just wish the series would show us some of that.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I would quite happily place a large bet that a Limited Edition will come out all about Horus and his change, much like _Aurelian_.


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## Captain_Daerys_Arrun (Jan 9, 2012)

I voted no simply because I'm tired of hearing the chaos side, I want a good book for any loyalist primarch. For me every book that has heavily featured a loyal primarch has been OK at best.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Captain_Daerys_Arrun said:


> I voted no simply because I'm tired of hearing the chaos side, I want a good book for any loyalist primarch. For me every book that has heavily featured a loyal primarch has been OK at best.


 
Maybe we will get some of that in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire??

Or maybe we can get a short story to boost Sang and Russ a bit? Savage Weapons and The Lion did wonders for El Johnson in my eyes..


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm quite happy with Russ actually. Want to see a lot more of him, but in both _A Thousand Sons_, _Prospero Burns_ and that small part in _Betrayer_, I've really liked him. I'm really hoping for a novel on Russ when he and the Sixth are ambushed by the Alpha Legion, with the Khan having to leave them to duke it out alone, then going on to explore this 'aid from an unexpected quarter', which I'm still speculating might be the Lion. The novel could even be split between Russ and the Khan, showing how hard it would be for Jaghatai to leave Russ, to go to the Emperors aid.

Sanguinius on the other hand. Well, just take a look at my fracking name on here to try and grasp how much more bitterly disappointed I was by Swallows abortion. Nothing short of Abnett or ADB are going to save the Angel for me now.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

theurge33 said:


> Savage Weapons...did wonders for El Johnson in my eyes..


Why? Because being overpowered and choked out in the dirt by Curze somehow does wonders for the Lion's image? 

I appreciate ADB's online efforts to cast that fight as a draw...but seriously, it did not make the Lion look good. It gave the impression that the Lion's fancy dueling couldn't hold up to Curze's feral brawling.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Horus definitely needs more screentime where he reflects on his course and choice, and perhaps with flashbacks to his earlier life.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Why? Because being overpowered and choked out in the dirt by Curze somehow does wonders for the Lion's image?
> 
> I appreciate ADB's online efforts to cast that fight as a draw...but seriously, it did not make the Lion look good. It gave the impression that the Lion's fancy dueling couldn't hold up to Curze's feral brawling.


Don't start that again. There is no point in me, or anyone, trying to convince you otherwise, your arguments are well documented elsewhere.

And please take into account, that someone's "image" is a lot more than simply winning duels... He could have flat-out lost to Curze, yet _Savage Weapons_ would have still done wonders for his image because of his portrayal throughout it. 



Brother Lucian said:


> Horus definitely needs more screentime where he reflects on his course and choice, and perhaps with flashbacks to his earlier life.


I agree. The _Warmaster_-audio by John French was interesting. We need more of that.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

MontytheMighty said:


> Why? Because being overpowered and choked out in the dirt by Curze somehow does wonders for the Lion's image?
> 
> I appreciate ADB's online efforts to cast that fight as a draw...but seriously, it did not make the Lion look good. It gave the impression that the Lion's fancy dueling couldn't hold up to Curze's feral brawling.


 
Its not all about dueling (which was certainly made up for in The Lion as well as his second encounter with Curze). His persona did a 180, which was awesome.

If it was all about martial prowess, no one would be complaining about Sanguinius, for in Fear to Tread, from that aspect he certainly took the cake, yet we hated it anyway.

On a side note, I can see them having Johnson involved in multiple plotlines in the galactic east, assisting the Wolves, the Ultramarines, White Scars etc and helping the Heresy from that end thus making his decision not to return to Caliban that much more noble.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Khyzer said:


> I actually quite disliked the portrayal of Mortarion in _A Thousand Sons_. Granted I have never read a codex in my life, just any book I can get my hands on and Lexicanum to fill in gaps I may have missed. But from his look, demeanor, physical presence, weapons, and background all make me think he is a much more direct and to the point personality. Skipping all the bullshit and only wasting words on the specific ones that need to be said. Not the grand standing we witnessed in ATS.


Well, I never imagined Mortarion to have the same blunt nature as, say, Dorn, but I was more enamoured by McNeill's description in the novel. I feel like he nailed the motif of a 17th century plague doctor and, especially in-context, a witch hunter of sorts.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i echo the horus flashbacks, he was if i remember correctly the only primarch to spend time with his father as a youth, and this is what i would like to see more off, others have fleshed out the past of some primarchs so horus should be given the same treatment, it would add more to the eventual fate we all know, make it more poignant


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I'd like to see it as far as showing the full corroption of Horus. Ya, he got stabbed and almost died at Davin, but I do not think that was his full fall. In "Galaxy in Flames" Erebus conjures up a Daemon to negotiate with Horus. Horus is no Word Bearer, he wants to know "Blah blah blah, gods, blah blah blah, kneel and worship, blah bllah...WAIT - you can change the tides of the warp? Ok, now we can start talking!"

He may have been corrupt, but I don't think he was a true believer. Every indication is that he was following his own secular truth. The Emp wanted to turn himself into a god at the expense of humanity. The Emp. wanted to do away with the Astartes after they had conquered the Galaxy for him.

In his own mind he was saving humanity. We can all see how Horus was crazy as hell, but it reminds me of a quote from "Seven" (Pitt to Spacey), "Do people like you really know how crazy you are? Do you wake up after beating off to guns and ammo covered in your own feces and in your grandmother's underwear and think 'Damn, I really am fucked up'!"

The talk that Torgadon had with Horus Aximand at the end of "Galaxy in Flames" really spells out what I want to know.

"When did you know you went to far?"



Just a side note, I think that when they do the final confrontation between Horus and the Emp happens, it will be Little Horus who lets the shields down and allows the Emp to board.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> Just a side note, I think that when they do the final confrontation between Horus and the Emp happens, it will be Little Horus who lets the shields down and allows the Emp to board.


This is quite a popular theory amongst the fans, although since the short story _Little Horus_, it's lost quite a few. The short seems to be setting up an inevitable confrontation with Loken and also cementing Aximands belief in the Heresy.

I still think it will be Horus himself who lowers the shield, as the lore has said. He knows the combined fleets of the I, VI and XIII are all mere hours away from Terra and that he's still days away from breaching the final defences of the Palace. Defeating the Emperor is the only viable win he can get and to draw the Emperor out, he needs to lower the shields. I just don't like the idea of them changing this to someone, Aximand for example, having a last minute change of heart and lowering the shield, with Horus then undoubtedly doing the clichéd "WHAT!? How can this be happening!" reaction.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Don't start that again. There is no point in me, or anyone, trying to convince you otherwise, your arguments are well documented elsewhere.


What? I can't voice my opinion but you don't like it?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> This is quite a popular theory amongst the fans, although since the short story _Little Horus_, it's lost quite a few. The short seems to be setting up an inevitable confrontation with Loken and also cementing Aximands belief in the Heresy.
> 
> I still think it will be Horus himself who lowers the shield, as the lore has said. He knows the combined fleets of the I, VI and XIII are all mere hours away from Terra and that he's still days away from breaching the final defences of the Palace. Defeating the Emperor is the only viable win he can get and to draw the Emperor out, he needs to lower the shields. I just don't like the idea of them changing this to someone, Aximand for example, having a last minute change of heart and lowering the shield, with Horus then undoubtedly doing the clichéd "WHAT!? How can this be happening!" reaction.



i agree, when Aximand and Abaddon fought Loken and Torgaddon, it was written so that at that time Aximand was lost, after what he had just done he did not understand fully what was happening and the sanctity of the Mournival he could not dismiss as easily as the First Captain seemed to have done, so much so that at the time Abaddon beleved that Aximand would need watching. 

Little Horus, showed that in the end he fully believed in what he and his brothers were doing, i doubt he would lower the shields and it is inevitable that either he or Abaddon will face Loken once more...be an ineresting story that when it is writen or if it is writen.


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## Lord of Ruin (Jul 22, 2012)

theurge33 said:


> Maybe we will get some of that in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire??
> 
> Or maybe we can get a short story to boost Sang and Russ a bit? Savage Weapons and The Lion did wonders for El Johnson in my eyes..


I agree, a short can do wonders. I thought however that Russ has been done really well, by all three authors that have depicted him. Though Sanguinius could do with abit more fleshing out.

However to keep on topic, more Horus is needed for sure, but like someone said earlier the small audio by John French, really did a good job of showing us abit more of him on a more intimate level, which is what we all need to see more of.


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

Captain_Daerys_Arrun said:


> I voted no simply because I'm tired of hearing the chaos side, I want a good book for any loyalist primarch. For me every book that has heavily featured a loyal primarch has been OK at best.


+1 on that. 
Ok we have Fear to tread but as I said before, the portrayal of Sanguinius was horrible. 

The problem we have is that, other than Russ, the 'loyalists' come across as a bunch of boring do gooders. They lack interest or character. They just whine about being betrayed and suck up to the emperor like a bunch of brown nose brats. Khan has potential, sanguinius should have been great. The lion, hes a prize douchebag. 

I think the 40k religious fanaticsm of the Space Marines is influencing the portrayal of the 30k universe to much.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

-2 to that. :wink:

There isn't a fixed number of books remaining, so why is a desire for better loyalist Primarch portrayals any reason to deny another book or two charting Horus' progression into Chaos?

I do agree the loyalist Primarchs could do with some lovin', but on that topic and above else so does the Emperor himself. I can understand the reluctance to engage with such an other-worldly figure, but as of right now I feel like someone has to break into his character and have a little rummage. You'd have to be careful, but it could be done. After all, I'm sure almost a decade ago the idea of writing about _the_ Horus would've raised an eyebrow or two until we saw what Abnett did in _Horus Rising_.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> What? I can't voice my opinion but you don't like it?


You can do what you like. 

AD-B himself has stated numerous times that the duel was effectively "a draw", that's more than enough for me, despite it being self-evident to me in the text itself anyway. All I was saying that it was pointless to start that discussion all over again, and that _Savage Weapons_ greatly improved the Lion's "image" (that being so much more than just his combat prowess) in pretty much everyone's eyes. 

Back OT: I do agree with the need for stronger/more intimate loyalist Primarch portrayals as well, especially their reaction to the Heresy. Swallow's Sanguinius was god-awful and there was no conviction in the accusations aimed at Horus in _Fear to Tread_. Dorn, in the lore, is a rigid-arsehole so theres not too much else that can be done with him. Thorpe's Corax is boring and predictable, and I'm already willing to consign Kyme's Vulkan to the ever-growing mountain of poor portrayals and wasted potential, though I hope he proves me wrong. I'd love to see portrayals of Russ and Jaghatai, done by authors like Abnett or AD-B, reacting to Horus's rebellion in some complex fashion other than "Arghhhh RAGGGE". In fact, for a while i've been anticipating the whole "Khan and the Wolf" saga as something which currently bears a lot of potential. I haven't got round to reading _Brotherhood of the Storm_ yet (despite having two copies on my shelf), but i'd love to see The Khan and White Scars flirt with the rebellion and, on that note, an elaboration on why Horus firmly believed the White Scars would ultimately join him would be much appreciated if executed successfully. It would certainly add a few more layers and intrigue to the standard loyalist (rage) reaction to Horus's rebellion. There would be so much potential to explore the Khan's established relationship with Horus, the reasons why Horus himself rebelled and how that could effect the White Scars. Rage reactions are obviously understandable and inevitable, but it would be nice to have a loyalist reaction that sympathised with Horus and looked into the reasons why he rebelled, whether or not those reasons also applied to the loyalists in question, and how the final decision to remain loyal was actually made, and at what cost. After all, this is a war of some black and white, but mostly shades of grey. There must have been shit-loads of Imperials, despite ultimately not being willing to openly rebel, who sympathised with Horus: the Emperor's return to Terra and subsequent silence, the Council of Terra usurping the War Council, disillusionment and uncertainty with what the future held for the Legiones Astartes, etc.

There is, of course, the whole _Imperium Secundus_ plot-line to look forward to as well. Which seems promising.

As a priority though, I still think Horus is in desperate need of fleshing-out post-Isstvan.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm defiantly supportive of more Horus. Stop teasing me with these little tibbits, I want some meat, not the vegetables :threaten:


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