# Frustrations of a New Player



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Hello,

I assembled and painted my first miniatures last wednesday; the first guardsmen of my planned 1000 point mechanized list. I have no experience in painting or miniature gaming. So far, all 30 cadians and Leman Russ I have are all assembled and painted. 

As I have gotten to know some of the regular 40k gamers at my local hobby store, I have learned that my army is the source of a lot of derision. People have even told me flat out that they would not play my army (mechanized IG). What I am doing is called cheesy, apparently, when I just wanted to make a mechanized list because I thought it would be a cool idea. I already have all the fluff for my company, and again, my models are painted. I don't have Valkyries or anything or a power-gaming outlook. I tried my best to recreate, at 1000 points, a simple mechanized task force. I then went to online forums to have veteran IG players look at my list and give me pointers. Nothing changed drastically, but I do want my force to be effective since I have never played before.

So if that isn't enough from the players at my local store, at least 75% of them play Space Marines, mostly Blood Angels or Space Wolves. On 40k night, which had like two dozen players, there were three people who all had the same name who all played Blood Angels. What are the chances?

My army, therefore, will spend most of its time fighting the same boring enemies.

On top of this, it seems like most other players - mostly the Space Marine players, actually - don't even paint their armies, or they have like 1 guy or 1 squad painted and the rest undercoated while they are boasting about their 5000 point lists. I don't want to play against unpainted armies. I don't want to field unpainted armies. It is an extremely significant part of this hobby and if you didn't want to do that part, then pay someone to do it for you or go play video games or risk or something. I am not a talented painter. I spent some time with a good painter at the hobby store who gave me some good advice, so I have miniatures that are table-top worthy with simple highlights, washes, and drybrushing done. They look fine. I don't like the idea of fighting unpainted miniatures. It ruins everything. I'm not fighting an army, I'm just fighting grey blobs with statistics and power armor with some blubbery idiot carrying on about how his guys are going to pwn my guardsmen. I might just play with Hershey Kisses next time against someone with unpainted miniatures and say that I didn't want to go through the effort of taking my painted army out of the case to play against an unpainted army.

/rant


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Fairborn, OH has a really nice store named the Krystal Keep. I know it is a bit of a drive but its the local hangout of Midge913 and I do pop in time to time there. It is large, clean, and from what I have seen the customers are nice.

http://www.krystalkeep.com/


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the Guard Tower is a good place to play in Cbus. i also live in cbus as well.

sorry to hear that you are having a bad time.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Those people obviously do not *deserve* to play against you.


----------



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

Those kind of players are just big babies that think their space marines are all that and will call everyone cheesy that happens to kill off one of thier guys. so don't worry about them and try to find some people that are cool to play with.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

I have recently decided never to play with an unpainted army again.
I never complain about an army unless it is an obviously competitive list in a friendly game.
I never brag unless it is just a general LOL moment.
You have douchbags at your store.

(The hershy kisses game sounds fun for shits and giggles, eating the enemy dead...)


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sounds like your local gaming store is manned by a bunch of folks best described as "jerks" (well the best way I can put it without being overly explicit).

As for not having painted armies, personally I bought heavilly into my Sisters first and got a working list out of them and have just recently started painting them (I've been playing them for only about a little over three months now) but I can sympathize. I actually have grown to destest breaking out that pile of metal and plastic for a game and have been making time just to work on it. It's not coming along at any sort of break-neck speed, but it's coming along (some my delays have been because of my initial hesitation trying to work out how to best paint them since I'm not using standard Sister colors and opting for Bone Armor, Red Cloth and silver and gold trim/detail work to match it all. Space Marine being released didn't help ).

I do agree that a change of store might help, especially when people are complaing that your army is cheese when they play codices that are considered to be much higher in the cheese factor (personally I don't believe that any codex is inherently broken, it's the players who find ways to break the codex and make it seem unfairly balanced against other armies).


----------



## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

You know I am with these guys your shops got some real jerks. I kinda agree with you It is nice to play against a fully painted army but if someone is just starting a army and wants to get a feel of them, then I am ok with the sea of grey. but what your talking about reminds me of a guy in my shop he hates losing I played my VC against his Lizardmen and I got lucky with some fear rolls and he lost. Month later he comes in with demons demanding a rematch, I stopped playing him right then and their so i feel you dude.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Fallen said:


> the Guard Tower is a good place to play in Cbus. i also live in cbus as well.
> 
> sorry to hear that you are having a bad time.


This was at the Guard Tower, and on the whole, there are some great people at the Guard Tower who have been very friendly and given me good advice. There are even a couple of new players (Space Marine players, but oh well) who started recently as well and we played together and managed to have a good time. There is just this clique at the store that I end up spending the most time with over this last week that have been giving me such a headache. I hope to meet more people as I go more often. I've only been three times.


----------



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Hopefully things get better for you...having to deal with arseholes does suck the fun out of this hobby real quick.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

There are jackasses everywhere.

It's even gotten to the point (at the store I frequent) that we've made an unofficial rule in regards to this guy (whose name is Neil). It's "Don't be a Neil." There's also "Pulling a Neil," for situations where somebody 'forgets' an important rule, or part of a rule, to shift the game in their favor.

We're hoping to get it meme-ified.


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

first of all welcome to heresy Tobacco

Don't worry about it the cries of nub's can always be crush by cannons, when l re did my IG again when the codex came out people refuse to vs me, only because it was Mech IG. Most people are happy to vs my IG now but most people will not let my GK's play, can't win  can l. Now l will have to wait for the cron players to come out to take the heat off GK when they get there codex.

With painted armies l hate vsing the Gray or Black army (under coated). l will still play them if there new to the game or its a new army etc. however if you have had it for more then a year and there still all black then l would refuse to vs you.

Edit: one more thing "Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance" is always a good way to catch them by surprise.


----------



## IadUmboros (Aug 9, 2010)

Hope you manage to get a game with your Guard, you obviously can't force opponents to play but I'm sure the good guys outnumber the bad.

You are admitting to denying others the opportunity to play against you though. Painting miniatures is a big part of the hobby for you, but it's not top priority for everyone who plays. I don't have a painted army at the moment. It's something I'm working towards, but playing games comes first for me.


----------



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Doelago said:


> Those people obviously do not *deserve* to play against you.


:goodpost: ! 

One thing I've learnt is that like attracts like. If you're a fair player, with good sportsmanship and you enjoy the hobby, you will attract similar players to you. Stick with it, and others who share your frustrations will see that you're a decent player and will come to battle you, not the others.

Also, good point on the don't refuse players with unpainted armies. You'll be surprised how many good players dont have them, for one reason for another - time, money, new army - and if they see your army, fully painted and looking great on the battlefield, well there's nothing more inspiring to make you want to paint your own.

Sorry you've had a bad starting experience, but it will get better. Enjoy the hobby, and don't let losers ruin it for you. Welcome to Heresy.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Tobacco said:


> Hello,


Hi!



> I assembled and painted my first miniatures last wednesday; the first guardsmen of my planned 1000 point mechanized list. I have no experience in painting or miniature gaming. So far, all 30 cadians and Leman Russ I have are all assembled and painted.


Awesome, well done.



> As I have gotten to know some of the regular 40k gamers at my local hobby store, I have learned that my army is the source of a lot of derision. People have even told me flat out that they would not play my army (mechanized IG). What I am doing is called cheesy, apparently, when I just wanted to make a mechanized list because I thought it would be a cool idea.


Bad players tend to want to avoid games that they might lose.



> I already have all the fluff for my company, and again, my models are painted. I don't have Valkyries or anything or a power-gaming outlook. I tried my best to recreate, at 1000 points, a simple mechanized task force. I then went to online forums to have veteran IG players look at my list and give me pointers. Nothing changed drastically, but I do want my force to be effective since I have never played before.


Totally understandable. Who wouldn't want an effective army?



> So if that isn't enough from the players at my local store, at least 75% of them play Space Marines, mostly Blood Angels or Space Wolves. On 40k night, which had like two dozen players, there were three people who all had the same name who all played Blood Angels. What are the chances?


Of lots of Space Marines? Very high. Of so many people playing Blood Angels with the same name? Very low!



> My army, therefore, will spend most of its time fighting the same boring enemies.


It's only boring if they all run the same sorts of lists.



> On top of this, it seems like most other players - mostly the Space Marine players, actually - don't even paint their armies, or they have like 1 guy or 1 squad painted and the rest undercoated while they are boasting about their 5000 point lists. I don't want to play against unpainted armies.


I suggest you quit the hobby then. The chances of you finding a group that only fields painted armies are slim to none.



> I don't want to field unpainted armies. It is an extremely significant part of this hobby and if you didn't want to do that part, then pay someone to do it for you or go play video games or risk or something.


You don't get to decide what other people do with the models that belong to them.



> I am not a talented painter. I spent some time with a good painter at the hobby store who gave me some good advice, so I have miniatures that are table-top worthy with simple highlights, washes, and drybrushing done. They look fine. I don't like the idea of fighting unpainted miniatures. It ruins everything. I'm not fighting an army, I'm just fighting grey blobs with statistics and power armor with some blubbery idiot carrying on about how his guys are going to pwn my guardsmen. I might just play with Hershey Kisses next time against someone with unpainted miniatures and say that I didn't want to go through the effort of taking my painted army out of the case to play against an unpainted army.
> 
> /rant


Again, if it bothers you so much, I'd suggest finding a different hobby because you're going to spend a _lot_ of time pissed off about unpainted armies unless you learn to accept how other people like to do things with their own belongings.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

As a counterpoint to Katie the battlebunker where i play has the requirement that at least 1000 points of your army must be painted. It seems to work. Everyone has painted armies and there are still lots of players. 

I too detest playing unpainted armies.

-edit it's the sydney battlebunker

Also even where it's not enforced it's very common to see painted armies. Maybe it's an Australian thing. We pay through the nose and so have a higher interest to paint them. *shrug*


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

l do agree with everything else you said however.


Katie Drake said:


> Hi!
> I suggest you quit the hobby then. The chances of you finding a group that only fields painted armies are slim to none.


l don't know how it is over there, but down in my area most of the groups l go too only have painted armies. There is no hard fast rule like WYSIWYG and must be painted however its never been an issue due to almost everyone having full painted armies. l will more often see people wanting to try out diffident guns then see unpainted guys.

Edit: Rem did remind me there are also 3 stores/clubs that do enforce WYSIWYG and must be painted.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Well at GW stores and such they'll usually try to force people to paint and all that but... fuck GW stores, so who cares.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Not really. Most GW stores won't care.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

I have played in the Columbus area multiple times, Newark in particular, and can vouch for what you have experienced...its a shitty gamer scene. The TO at Newark, Dan Corbett is a pretty cool guy, but the general player organization is just a scrubfest. My experience, at least from tournament play, is full of people who don't know the rules, bitch endlessly about cheese. The local tournament king, Jason Garner, cheats like a motherfucker, and the area swings from his nuts so bad im surprised it hasnt ripped his cock off. I think last time we played I had to open the rulebook 12 times to correct him on stuff. I dont dislike a lot of people over there, but I generally viewed the tournaments as easy prizes/something to do for a day, and have not been in some time.

If gas is not too big of a concern, I recommend driving over to Dayton. Bookery Fantasy is closest, but Krystal keep is alright too, and Epic Loot is possibly the best game store out there. 

I am going to continue with what Katie Drake said. Painting is a big part of the hobby, but a fair amount of gamers simply dont enjoy it. I have a friend who is fun to play against, helpful and friendly, but he loathes painting, so his armies are either not or poorly painted. I enjoy it from time to time, but between school, exercising, reading, and socializing I cant be bothered to paint things up to my standards. This isnt to say I dont paint well, because I definitely do, but I simply cannot find the time to put 2-3 layers of highlights, shading, basing, and detail work on every squad before I play them. Painting is a lot of work, and you should only do it when you want to/will enjoy it. Im not gonna dump 60 hours into an army before ever playing it to satisfy my opponents.

For example, I recently began a draigowing army. I thought blackmoors list looked like a lot of fun, and would be very challenging to play. So I basically copied it. The models took me 5 hours tops to build, and I have been playing them since. I havent begun painting because I still need to order the guns for the dreads. But I wouldnt have started the army if I would have had to wait to get it painted to my standard before playing it.


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

odd l find the opposite again most GW stores cater to kids so yea most of them are unpainted.

l went with a friend once due to them running an event, out of 15 people only 3 had painted armies .


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

I never even see people playing at my local GW (Chadstone), it's just painting, so I guess we're the opposite from the trend there. Not sure if there's anyother FLGS in the area though.

As for not painting before playing, well some people just don't have the time. I'm tryna rush some scouts out while I'm on holidays, but between being a full time Eng student and working there's not a lot of time to play and paint, so I'll take a game if I can get it, even if it means all my tanks aren't finished. If these guys only have one squad painted, then they're probably either slowly working on it like me, or just enjoy playing rather than painting. You can't blaim them for that.

Still, bitching that you have a 'cheesy' list is just stupid. If it's a list you're just playing because you like it, shrug and tell people that. (What's the deal with 'cheese' anyway?)


----------



## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Don't play with those guys that are jerks. The other players who also hate playing with those guys will gravitate towards you.

Of course, don't be a jerk back about people painting. Sorry, some people just don't paint their armies -- ever. Happens in all wargames. Many people are just there to assemble and play. You'll need to get used to that.


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

I agree with pretty much everyone else; you've got a load of complete cocks at your store. But I do disagree with one thing you said in your OP, and that's the bit about unpainted armies. I've been playing 40k for almost 7 years now. I love this game. I love painting models. Unfortunately, I almost never have time to paint a lot of them. I spend my week doing school work (especially now that I'm in university), and if my friends and I ever have time to play 40k on an odd Saturday night, we usually opt to play a game or two instead of paint. A large portion of the regulars at the GW I used to frequent used unpainted armies for the simple reason that most of us were students who just didn't have the time to get all of our minis painted. While it is rather aggravating to play your nice, fresh, fully-painted army against someone who hasn't even primed their models, flat-out refusing to play people simply because their models aren't painted doesn't exactly seem like the best route, as it may make you seem pretentious to some people, especially because you're a relatively new player. Just my thoughts though.


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Tobacco said:


> This was at the Guard Tower, and on the whole, there are some great people at the Guard Tower who have been very friendly and given me good advice. There are even a couple of new players (Space Marine players, but oh well) who started recently as well and we played together and managed to have a good time. There is just this clique at the store that I end up spending the most time with over this last week that have been giving me such a headache. I hope to meet more people as I go more often. I've only been three times.


Don't let it get you down, the GT has more "tourny" players who generally just prep for the next tournament, but there are many stores around that i wont name simply for space; but if you want to get a game in this saturday, and maybe miss a bit of the OSU game, send me a PM (consisting of time, points, and competitive level) im free.



Durandal said:


> I have played in the Columbus area multiple times, Newark in particular, and can vouch for what you have experienced...its a shitty gamer scene. The TO at Newark, Dan Corbett is a pretty cool guy, but the general player organization is just a scrubfest.


Corbett is awesome, as is Allen B. who runs a SWEET tournament each year, i dont go out to newark all that much but the people who i play with are generally open minded and willing to play whatever.

too be fair Durandal it seems that you are going with a highly competitive group of players, not all of us go to tournaments.

best of luck tobacco.


----------



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Coldshrike said:


> What's the deal with 'cheese' anyway?


What someone (a bad player, imo, usually) means by cheese is "I'm not going to win against that, I want you to use something else so I can beat you" .

My view is if it's part of the game, its part of game. Use it. Yes some things are very hard to combat, but you either learn ways around it or take it on. There's no real game-breaking units, so people need to stop complaining and get on playing.

It's like when I play Gears of War, COD or Battlefield online, and I'm not the best but I do have some pretty decent moments, and I've had *so many* messages after games we're we've ruled saying "OMG your such a loser why are you using the retro lancer" "OMG your crap" "OMG you wouldnt win if you didnt use your shotgun" . They usually contradict each other, and I use all weapons depending whats best.

Some people can't take losing, and their lives suck so they make this game/hobby their life, and they don't wanna suck at that either.

/Rant. Sorry for going on, the whole cheese thing really grinds me


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

Oh, I get that. But why 'cheese'?


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

because 'cake' doesnt have the same effect.


----------



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Lol @ cake comment.

Hmm, I don't know. Maybe because its 'cheesy' - like cheap, nasty cheese.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

@Tobacco.

My advice mate would be to try and see if any of the other 'nice' players in your area are interested in playing games at home. This way you can get in a decent number of games while not having to worry about people being idiots.

Additionally if someone is being an idiot, just act indifferent or better yet kill their favourite model. I was playing a Space Wolf player once who just didn't stop bragging about how good Canis Wolfborn was. He wasn't bragging for long because my Big Mek and Ork boyz killed the Unshaven gitt.:laugh:

After that said player wasn't so much of an idiot.


----------



## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

I was with you until the bit about painted armies. I don't see how some people can argue that people should be able to have whatever list composition that they want, because the competition is the part of the hobby that they like, but the people that don't like to paint are somehow the spawn of Satan and a second class group of hobbyists.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Nave Senrag said:


> I don't see how some people can argue that people should be able to have whatever list composition that they want, because the competition is the part of the hobby that they like, but the people that don't like to paint are somehow the spawn of Satan and a second class group of hobbyists.


It's sort of like bringing a mule to the Kentucky Derby and expecting the thoroughbred jockeys not to be insulted. Or, it takes two to tango - create a fun and memorable experience - and one army showing up unpainted ruins it for the other person's full enjoyment and the unpainted army player expecting the same treatment.


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

Tobacco said:


> It's sort of like bringing a mule to the Kentucky Derby and expecting the thoroughbred jockeys not to be insulted. Or, it takes two to tango - create a fun and memorable experience - and one army showing up unpainted ruins it for the other person's full enjoyment and the unpainted army player expecting the same treatment.


I don't see how someone having an unpainted army ruins the experience for the other person. It really seems to say more about the person being offended, to be quite frank. It's not like those of us with unpainted armies choose not to paint just so we can detract from our opponents' overall experience.


----------



## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Tobacco said:


> It's sort of like bringing a mule to the Kentucky Derby and expecting the thoroughbred jockeys not to be insulted. Or, it takes two to tango - create a fun and memorable experience - and one army showing up unpainted ruins it for the other person's full enjoyment and the unpainted army player expecting the same treatment.


Maybe they think you aren't trying to "create a fun and memorable experience" with your "cheese".

Ever think of that?

:taunt:

:grin:


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

InquisitorTidusSolomon said:


> I don't see how someone having an unpainted army ruins the experience for the other person. It really seems to say more about the person being offended, to be quite frank.


It says that we have higher standards and would rather play against someone who understands and respects the commitment to this hobby. For me, it isn't about stats and dice. It is about playing a fun game with a collection of miniatures I have worked hard for against someone else who respects his army enough to do the same, so that we can recreate a fun and colorful battle between forces that inhabit the 40K universe. I find it hard to believe that someone can take the time to assemble thousands of points of multiple armies and then say they don't have the time or money to paint them. It really means that they don't care.



> It's not like those of us with unpainted armies choose not to paint just so we can detract from our opponents' overall experience.


Of course not, because such a consideration for your opponent's enjoyment would never cross your mind.


I am new to this hobby. I am assembling and painting each set as I get them and I'm a broke college student with a demanding job who lives in a cramped little apartment. I have no prior modeling or painting experience. If I can do it, anyone can, or they're too lazy.


I realize that I am coming across extremely abrasive for someone new in this territory, but I really don't get it. I thought I would see everyone have mostly painted armies, or new people who are in the process of painting their armies, because I thought that was something everyone should have felt obliged to do. There is no GW literature that sports unpainted models as a finished product.


----------



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

With your attitude I believe your frustrations will contine, and likely increase...everyone has different aspects of this hobby that they consider more important than others, and my choices are no more important than yours, just like yours aren't to me, or this guy here or that one over there for that matter.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Tobacco said:


> It says that we have higher standards and would rather play against someone who understands and respects the commitment to this hobby. For me, it isn't about stats and dice. It is about playing a fun game with a collection of miniatures I have worked hard for against someone else who respects his army enough to do the same, so that we can recreate a fun and colorful battle between forces that inhabit the 40K universe. I find it hard to believe that someone can take the time to assemble thousands of points of multiple armies and then say they don't have the time or money to paint them. It really means that they don't care.



It does not mean people are focused on stats and dice, some people are just focused on fun. They have fun playing, they do not have fun spending hours upon hours painting before playing. Sure it's nice to have fully painted armies and adds to the experience but if their net gain of enjoyment is down because they spent all that time painting then they shouldn't care. What you enjoy comes before anything else. 

(and before anyone says "why don't you just make super competitive lists and curbstomp people all the time then?" ask yourself, do you have more fun in close games where both people enjoy themselves or curbstomping?)


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

This is an interesting debate regarding the painting but before i get into that.....
Regarding the players at your store. It sounds like there are some wankers and some not. If there is someone there you have a rapport with organise a game at home for a later date. Build a circle of non wanker friends that way.

Now for the painting. I understand your issues with non painted armies but as others have stated not everyone has the time. On the other hand there are ways to get an army painted to a basic standard quite quickly. If they are marines. Spray them in color, paint the guns boltgun and dunk them in a wash. Glue on the base and then dunk them in some model railway ballast. You can do a squad of 10 marines in half an hour like that. Won't win an award but they will look a damn sight better on the table.

To again argue with myself refusing a game against an unpainted army is a little harsh. I ww2 the russians were deploying tanks direct from the factory unpainted and no-one was refusing to fight them. I used to have my trator guard tanks sprayed black and drybrushed with boltgun and a heavy boltgun drybrush on the tracks. That was it untill i could get around to adding the camo. Not flash but it looks better than grey at any rate.
Personally i would like to see every army fully painted, but i don't think that is going to happen.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Tobacco said:


> It says that we have higher standards


Self righteousness detected.



> and would rather play against someone who understands and respects the commitment to this hobby. For me, it isn't about stats and dice.


Inability to respect others preferences detected.



> It is about playing a fun game with a collection of miniatures I have worked hard for against someone else who respects his army enough to do the same, so that we can recreate a fun and colorful battle between forces that inhabit the 40K universe. I find it hard to believe that someone can take the time to assemble thousands of points of multiple armies and then say they don't have the time or money to paint them. It really means that they don't care.


No, it just means that they don't care _as much_. You lead a busy life, yet you still make time to paint your models. Other people don't place 40k (or that aspect of 40k) so highly on their list of priorities so it doesn't get done as quickly/completely as it does for you. You _really_ need to learn to accept other people's tastes.



> Of course not, because such a consideration for your opponent's enjoyment would never cross your mind.


So you want your opponents to spend dozens of hours painting up their models _for you_? Am I understanding this correctly?



> I realize that I am coming across extremely abrasive for someone new in this territory, but I really don't get it. I thought I would see everyone have mostly painted armies, or new people who are in the process of painting their armies, because I thought that was something everyone should have felt obliged to do. There is no GW literature that sports unpainted models as a finished product.


Who fucking cares what there's GW literature about? GW is full of incompetent retards who are incredibly out of touch with their fan base. I don't know about you but what GW's opinions are as to what I do with my time and money are so insignificant to me as to be completely immaterial.

The fact is you don't _have_ to understand why more people don't paint their stuff. You do have to accept it though, or you're going to hate your time in the hobby.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> The fact is you don't _have_ to understand why more people don't paint their stuff. You do have to accept it though, or you're going to hate your time in the hobby.



QFT. I think KD hit it on the nose with this statement.

If you want to only play people with painted armies that is your choice, but to be honest worrying about it is going to make you hate this hobby. Playing with a beautifully painted army or fully painted army might inspire others to paint more.


----------



## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

I like how this thread has turned around. It amuses me.

I'm beginning to think that maybe those guys didn't want to play with you not because of your mechanized IG list, but because perhaps you were being a jerk about their armies not being painted? How _dare_ they?!?

Haha.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

notsoevil said:


> I like how this thread has turned around. It amuses me.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that maybe those guys didn't want to play with you not because of your mechanized IG list, but because perhaps you were being a jerk about their armies not being painted? How _dare_ they?!?
> 
> Haha.


Hahaha... yes. Rep. Take my rep.


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

I agree. I love fighting against fully/almost painted armies the best because it shows that the person had commitment to aspects of the game other than playing, but honestly it doesnt matter. Yes some people can be annoying and yes it is humiliating to lose to someone with an unpainted army, but you chose to paint yours and they didnt choose to paint theirs. Its a free country, and a lot of people would play without even using the right models if they could. I wouldnt because then I could paint them, but there is not point getting mad about it. There is nothing in the rules saying armies must be painted, and the fluff is very far from the table-top stats. Space marines should all be better (based off fluff) and eldar should be more mobile and tyranids more never-ending and orks bigger and it goes on and on and on (btw if you disagree with any of this, I dont care).

Now, you have three options.

1) you can accept the opponents army even if its not painted, and focus for that game on the play of it not on the paints (best for you)

2) you can keep playing but also keep complaining and driving all the players away from you and spending crap tons of money for no reason (worst in general)

3) you can leave the hobby (that is your choice, I dont know if it would be good for you

But yes i understand where you are coming from it can get annoying.


*EDIT* wait what??? This was suppose to be about your army? Crap i totally forgot... lol


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

Tobacco said:


> It says that we have higher standards and would rather play against someone who understands and respects the commitment to this hobby. For me, it isn't about stats and dice. It is about playing a fun game with a collection of miniatures I have worked hard for against someone else who respects his army enough to do the same, so that we can recreate a fun and colorful battle between forces that inhabit the 40K universe. I find it hard to believe that someone can take the time to assemble thousands of points of multiple armies and then say they don't have the time or money to paint them. It really means that they don't care.


Believe me, mate. It really doesn't mean you have higher standards. It means you value painting more in your form of the hobby. My favorite part of the hobby is spending hours converting each model in my army. Playing comes second. I'm a slow painter, but I'm also very thorough on each model, which means I take a long time to paint a squad. I don't recall saying anything about having thousands of points of anything. I also resent you assuming that I don't care. I doubt I'd still be playing this after almost 7 years if I didn't care. Warhammer is something I love. It doesn't come first when I have free time. If I have free time in the day, odds are that I'm either playing my bass, listening to music, or writing my own. If I'm not doing that, I'm either playing Xbox or Warhammer. You obviously put Warhammer ahead of your other interests. Congratulations. I don't.



Tobacco said:


> Of course not, because such a consideration for your opponent's enjoyment would never cross your mind.


And you know this how? Sounds like some judgment right there. Get off your high horse. 



Tobacco said:


> I am new to this hobby. I am assembling and painting each set as I get them and I'm a broke college student with a demanding job who lives in a cramped little apartment. I have no prior modeling or painting experience. If I can do it, anyone can, or they're too lazy.


First off, if you're a broke college student, why the bloody hell would you decide to start playing Warhammer? Congrats. You live in a small apartment and work for a living while you're in Uni. Join the club.
Laziness has nothing to do with it. The fact that you paint each squad as you go means nothing. So I have a different approach than you? How does that make any of us lazy? The fact that you have no experience in the hobby is also completely irrelevant.



Tobacco said:


> I realize that I am coming across extremely abrasive for someone new in this territory, but I really don't get it. I thought I would see everyone have mostly painted armies, or new people who are in the process of painting their armies, because I thought that was something everyone should have felt obliged to do. There is no GW literature that sports unpainted models as a finished product.


No, you're coming off like a judgmental ass. So sorry to hear that the rest of us scrubs burst your bubble about painted armies. I try to make the game fun for both myself and my opponent. But I sure as hell don't feel obliged to paint my army just to satisfy them. However I do have the tact to not roll up to an opponent with a fully-painted army and ask them for a game with my lovely army of primed marines. Not all of us feel the need to paint before we play, and even less of us give a rat's ass about if people like you think we should paint before having the nerve to play a game with you.
And as Katie already said, fuck the GW literature. Welcome to Heresy. Enjoy your stay.

Also, have some +rep, KD.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

My blood angels took me 20 hours to build.

They have taken >175 hours to paint, and I am at most halfway done with the army. Fuck you, I refuse to just slap 3 colors on a model to field it. I have to have my stuff done to my standards to really enjoy it, not yours. If that means you fight the basecoat legion because i didnt wanna cut corners and get things done faster, suck it up. 



> I am new to this hobby. I am assembling and painting each set as I get them and I'm a broke college student with a demanding job who lives in a cramped little apartment. I have no prior modeling or painting experience. If I can do it, anyone can, or they're too lazy.


I am a full time student at 2 different universities, not full time at both combined, but full time at each. I enjoy listening to music, talking to friends, reading books on politics and history, and working out. Painting is mostly a chore for me, I have to be in the right mood to want to do it. So let me ask you this, why should I spend my time, when I dont want to, painting, for your enjoyment on the table top? Its not exactly important I paint, there are far more important things in the world. You have to approach a for fun hobby with a much more laid back attitude.

I was one of the 16 people at Nova to have a perfect sportsmanship score. I threw more than a few games because I knew that my army could steamroll the people I was playing, and I figured they would have more fun winning a close game than getting tabled in ~3 turns. The single least fun game of 40k I ever had was at a tournament a few months ago, the guy I played was a complete asshole, both argumentative and lazy with the rules, and I still bought him a beer after the game. 

Sure, painted armies look better than unpainted ones. But dont you have better things to worry about than how much color is on your opponents models. If you are new to the hobby, I am willing to bet your painting is terrible. And that is alright, because all of us had terrible painting at the beginning. Which makes this all the worse, because taking your time to make an army look good, and getting insulted by someone who almost inevitably has just discovered drybrushing/washes is laughable. 

I wouldnt mind playing you, I enjoy helping new people into the hobby. Would you refuse to play my 2 week old draigowing because it has no paint on it? I would have no problems dropping to play your beginners army. But what if I said this; "Sorry, I think 2000 points is what this game is really meant for. And I hold myself to a much higher standard than most other gamers. Even though you are new, I wont play your 1000 point army. Come back when you have more stuff." 

So let me ask you this. What makes you so special? Why would you refuse to play someone over anything other than their personality? You take the hobby seriously? I have dumped thousands of dollars into the game over the last decade. I have played against well over a hundred people in 5 states. I have played in over 50 tournaments, almost always high up in battle points scores, and often in sportsmanship as well. You need to cut the elitist attitude fast, or you wont have any friends in this hobby. I wish you the best, but this needs to be said


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> So you want your opponents to spend dozens of hours painting up their models _for you_? Am I understanding this correctly?


Yeah, you know, that extremely fundamental part of this hobby that thousands of Warhammer 40K players do without knowledge of my existence. I wonder why they're doing it if they don't know me or have any concern to please me.




notsoevil said:


> I'm beginning to think that maybe those guys didn't want to play with you not because of your mechanized IG list, but because perhaps you were being a jerk about their armies not being painted? How _dare_ they?!?
> Haha.


I never mentioned anything to them about their unpainted armies or my thoughts on the matter, troll.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Tobacco said:


> Yeah, you know, that extremely fundamental part of this hobby that thousands of Warhammer 40K players do without knowledge of my existence. I wonder why they're doing it if they don't know me or have any concern to please me.


They do it because its fun for them. Without any concern of whether it pleases you or not, and thats the thing. You literally dont matter in if/how well someone paints their own army. And no part of this hobby is "fundamental". Local guy has won multiple golden demons, and never plays. He just likes painting. Guess I should berate him for ignoring a "fundamental part" of the hobby, instead of having fun how he has fun? 

On the weekends, I like to play warhammer and drink with friends. I dont like to slam my dick in car doors or stab myself with needles. The first 2 things are fun, the second 2 are not, so I dont do them.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Durandal said:


> Local guy has won multiple golden demons, and never plays. He just likes painting. Guess I should berate him for ignoring a "fundamental part" of the hobby, instead of having fun how he has fun?


Unlike playing the game, however, his involvement in the hobby does not require anyone else to participate.


Look, I get your points. Not everyone values painting so much, or some people have really high painting standards and paint slowly. There are certain situations where it is more understandable why someone wouldn't have an army painted. I just think it is really stupid when someone can be so dedicated to the hobby, as you say, spending thousands of dollars on many armies, and not bother to paint any of them. If you are a really careful painter and paint slowly or a new player working up, I understand that. It's the people who don't care at all that turn me off to tabletop gaming. I don't understand why they don't just play a far more sophisticated simulation on the computer, for instance, for far cheaper without having to put in any effort.


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

If you really enjoy looking at the paint jobs that much, you might enjoy setting up large scale diarama scenes with others more than fighting battles. I've known people who do this. They get with a couple of others or go solo and setup these huge battle scenes that are painted and posed to perfection. They tell a story and are very cool. They usually have as much or more emphasis on the buildings, streets, battlefield, as the armies.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Tobacco said:


> Unlike playing the game, however, his involvement in the hobby does not require anyone else to participate.
> 
> 
> Look, I get your points. Not everyone values painting so much, or some people have really high painting standards and paint slowly. There are certain situations where it is more understandable why someone wouldn't have an army painted. I just think it is really stupid when someone can be so dedicated to the hobby, as you say, spending thousands of dollars on many armies, and not bother to paint any of them. If you are a really careful painter and paint slowly or a new player working up, I understand that. It's the people who don't care at all that turn me off to tabletop gaming. I don't understand why they don't just play a far more sophisticated simulation on the computer, for instance, for far cheaper without having to put in any effort.


They dont enjoy painting, and like you they are just looking for fun. The fact that it detracts from your enjoyment to play unpainted armies is questionable, but that they should spend the ~6 or 7 hours they can never get back to slap a shitty paint job on an army to satisfy you is ridiculous.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm on tobacco's side here. There's nothing better than seeing two fully painted armies going at it. It adds a whole new life to the game. I personally only play with fully painted models, however i will play against unpainted armies; it just irks me. 

I would expect people to at least attempt to paint there armies. As long as you make an effort i don't care how long it takes you or at what standard your at, making a bit of an effort is what counts. It's really not hard to get a decent tabletop standard. It's those that make no attempt, and never will that annoy me. 

Why do i expect people to paint? Because first and foremost this is a hobby to me, not a tactical simulation (i play computer games for that). Being a craft hobby i would have thought a certain level of 'craft-stuff' would be required. In the words of Alan Merret 'ours is a craft hobby made all the better through the pageantry of tabletop gaming'. I'm a person who loves painting and modelling and pours through the forgeworld books of inspiration and techniques etc. I can spend weeks or months painting without a game. 

I do however understand that others are different, that they might enjoy list building or gaming more. That said i still think everyone should try to find the time to paint, being as this is a craft hobby involving collecting miniatures. It seems to defy the point somewhat to spend so much money on an army, to assemble it and game with it but never paint it. Why not play vassal then?


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

If only I lived in Sydney. The Australians in this thread seem to understand me or have rules about painted armies at their gaming clubs.


----------



## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Tobacco said:


> Look, I get your points. Not everyone values painting so much, or some people have really high painting standards and paint slowly. There are certain situations where it is more understandable why someone wouldn't have an army painted. I just think it is really stupid when someone can be so dedicated to the hobby, as you say, spending thousands of dollars on many armies, and not bother to paint any of them. If you are a really careful painter and paint slowly or a new player working up, I understand that. It's the people who don't care at all that turn me off to tabletop gaming. I don't understand why they don't just play a far more sophisticated simulation on the computer, for instance, for far cheaper without having to put in any effort.


Firstly, welcome to the hobby.

Secondly, stop and consider for moment, if you will, that you are expressing an opinion on how you prefer to indulge in your hobby.

Your opinion is as valid *as anybody elses.*

You prefer to play painted armies? Fine. So do I.

Thats where you should have stopped. Passing judgement on the "why" "how" or "when" other people should be painting their armies goes beyond opinion and into the realm of arrogance. As an experienced player of some twenty years, let me tell you, I find nothing more insulting than being told that I am "lazy" because I have an unpainted army.

Lets ignore the fact that I may have any number of fully painted armies already and pass judgement because the army that you have seen happens to be a work in progress - is that what your'e getting at?

Or maybe its because you want *your* experience to be as perfect as it can be, with an impressive battlefield and two armies looking across the terrain at each other? Selfish much?

Your opinion is valid, even valued. Your judgement is not.:no:


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I just started playing 40K this year. If I ever encountered such hostility towards my bland gray army when I was still just toying with the hobby, then I would of trashed my army and never looked back. 

Can you atleast see how it sounds whiney when you say it another way?

"I don't like greenstuff. I won't play an army that has models using greenstuff, cause that's not how the package shows the final product."
"I don't want to play against people who don't magnetize. If they aren't going to take the time and effort to magnetize like I do, then they aren't worth my time."

Wait. Tabacco's avatar is Trixie. Is this a troll thread? Did I just get trolled?


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

SavageConvoy said:


> Can you atleast see how it sounds whiney when you say it another way?
> 
> "I don't like greenstuff. I won't play an army that has models using greenstuff, cause that's not how the package shows the final product."
> "I don't want to play against people who don't magnetize. If they aren't going to take the time and effort to magnetize like I do, then they aren't worth my time."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

Yeah, dude, I admit that painted armys look better unpainted, and I realize that two armies clashing looks better than two sets of figures, but my god do you realize how arrogant you sound. Hell, I've been playing my army before it's finished as much as anything to see if they're effective before it's too late to change them.

It's a GAME. For FUN. So instead of saying the other people don't respect the game like you do because they don't enjoy all the same aspect, how about having a little bit of respect for what they do enjoy. You might not understand why they would collect an army and not paint it, but they probably don't understand why somebody would spend hours modeling and painting when it doesn't have any impact on the game. I had a hard time explaining that to my housemate. At the end of the day, just let people enjoy it however they can.

Also, Australia has more cities than Sydney. You know that, right?


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

People enjoy different aspects... you have to live with that: it is a game, not a job, you cannot in any way force someone to do something they don't want to do.

However, heresy is a little different since it has moderators- so cool t please (goes out as a general request).


Anyway, I have something like 25'000+ points worth of models and I really dislike painting most of the time: I'm not great but am half decent if I put my mind to it, but I find it drags rather. Yes, I can put down fully painted armies, but if I feel like having a change and using my lesser-used units, which tend to be the last painted, and happen to have a mostly unpainted army then who cares... its all for fun afterall.

Now if I'm going to a tourny then I expect everything t be painted (even at randomly arranged ones between friends)... but that's just etiquette, certainly nothing like that exists for random games outside of a few clubs' rules..... but getting wound up by it is a little silly.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't see how my analogy was wrong. It's a completely aesthetic problem you have with the game. It doesn't affect the rules or how the battlefield is set up. It doesn't determine the type of person that you're playing against. You have a specific problem with how people set their army up. But let's have a better example. How about if I said that I only play against people who have color schemes in their army rule book. Gamesworkshop is showing the finished product. How they want it be seen. You're not using the same color schemes they provide, so you obviously don't have the same level of dedication as I do because I stick to the fluff.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Without wanting to help this thread descend all the way into a proper bitching contest, I'm just going to add my thoughts. Where the original post is concerned, Tobacco seems somewhat unfortunate in being targeted just because he's gone for an Imperial Guard rather than Space Marine army and it is quite understandable that he takes umbrage at this. The people Tobacco is complaining about do seem to represent an extreme and hopefully unrepresentative aspect of the hobby, so with any luck he'll find better opponents in the future.

As for the question of painted versus unpainted, it is an age old debate that is unlikely to be resolved by our mutual efforts. Where I live unpainted or semi-painted miniatures are not uncommon, simply because people are adding to their armies whenever they can and sometimes like to use a model the same day they've built it. Painted armies are however a little more common (even amongst the younger gamers), but again this is a reflection of the fact that people are adding to their armies whenever they can, which isn't as often as we would like. However most of the people I game with tend to make sure they've finished whatever the latest addition to their army is before they add in something else and no one as far as I know has thousands of points worth of unpainted miniatures.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

To the OP: I am SO sorry.

Second: you need to MOVE, fast! In the event of a Zombie Apocalypse, wherever it is you are must be where it's starting!

Seriously though, our game has become more and more like Pokémon was years ago, Space Marine players who won't paint and swaps codex every year are the Pikachu hustler kiddies and we just need to shut them out. Grab whatever few good gamer buddies you have and completely freeze those people out. Play games at your houses, and let the douche bags stand on the floor of the FLGS, scratching their head, wondering where everyone went.


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

The more this plays out, the more I have this horrible, creeping feeling we're all be trolled.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Why because someone brought up a genuine grievance, which happens to be a hot button issue and who just happens to a a my little pony avatar?

Come on.

I'd also like to clarify though that i don't have a problem with newly acquired units not being painted, we all want to use our new units as quickly as possible. It's just that if they never receive a coat of paint or nothing in the army is painted or will be painted that i think there's a problem. 

Back on the original topic though is it possible for you to try out some different gaming stores Tobacco? Perhaps you would be better suited to a different group of gamers, one's who can handle the shock of a non marine army. I'd hate to see how they would respond to an armoured company list (the forgeworld variant list- one of my favourites)/ Hilariously enough though mech guard, so often considered the cheesiest, unfluffy lists have been in the fluff for years- Steel Legion anyone?

-Also for everyone calling him out for refusing to play unpainted armies he hasn't actually stated that, merely that he dislikes it (like many of us do) and would prefer to play painted armies.


----------



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

having read all of this i have one big question;
am i allowed to do a sm army?
i mean will i get grief for it? it seems everyone out there hates them, this worries me greatly. 
Oh and i take ages to paint my guys, but i like to think the end result is worth the wait.

and yes there are other cities then sydney, but seriously, who else dosnt have a clue what they are called?


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Of course you're allowed to run a sm army. You can run whatever you like, it's your money and your models. You might however encounter the odd eyeroll at 'yet another space marine army'.


----------



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Rems said:


> Of course you're allowed to run a sm army. You can run whatever you like, it's your money and your models. You might however encounter the odd eyeroll at 'yet another space marine army'.


hmm but that really sucks, i just really like the crimson fists, great background and awesome paint scheme. oh well


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Those people obviously do not *deserve* to play against you.


Doelago has the nail on the head here! My brother has mech IG and I have orks, I play him and my mate (blood angels) quite regular and I don't see the problem with Mech IG. If I'm honest, I think they're a great looking army, and there's tonnes of fluff you can do for them. That's just people being buffoons!

Also, on the painted mini's front, I'm painting all my wolves before I play them, my orks are just too numerous, I bought too many at once and bam, my motivation to paint them vanished. It does look WAAAAY better with two painted armies though* 

* I should say, it's not essential though ;-)


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> To the OP: I am SO sorry.
> 
> Second: you need to MOVE, fast! In the event of a Zombie Apocalypse, wherever it is you are must be where it's starting!
> 
> Seriously though, our game has become more and more like Pokémon was years ago, Space Marine players who won't paint and swaps codex every year are the Pikachu hustler kiddies and we just need to shut them out. Grab whatever few good gamer buddies you have and completely freeze those people out. Play games at your houses, and let the douche bags stand on the floor of the FLGS, scratching their head, wondering where everyone went.


Yeah, as we all know, people either play only marine armies or no marine armies. So fuck the cheesy waac marine players, why else would you play them? If its got a 3+ armor save, exclude it from your gaming club, its the only way to have fun.


----------



## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

DecrepitDragon said:


> Firstly, welcome to the hobby.
> 
> Your opinion is as valid *as anybody elses.*
> 
> Your opinion is valid, even valued.


Forgive me for quoting my own post but I felt I had to reiterate something.

Tobacco, you have a very valid point that painted armies are more fun to play against. Ask anyone here and I'm sure most would agree.

I take exeption to the manner in which you expressed your dislike for unpainted armies - if you had been more specific in the first place, none of the criticism would have gone quite as far. The fact that at first you generalised non-painted players was a little thoughtless.

Moving on though - I too have an veteran IG army (1500pts), and although it isn't mech in the strictest sense of the term, I do have seven tanks (1 Russ, 1 Russ Punisher and 2 Hellhounds and 3 Griffons).

Sounds to me like your current gamers would call my army "cheesy" also. And I just dont care. If they complain too loudly, as has been said before, its probably because they know that their army isn't set up to take on IG, they're set up to play all the other marine players.

If thats the case - find some new players who know how to write balanced, take on all comers lists. You'll have better games as a result. Hell, I'd play you if geography wasn't an issue - as long as you didn't mind the hellhounds being plain black.:biggrin:


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Alright. First off, ill respond to some aweosme quotes. Or at least the funny ones...



Coldshrike said:


> The more this plays out, the more I have this horrible, creeping feeling we're all be trolled.


:shok: Oh crap... I think youre right



Tobacco said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy


sure thats the right link?



Wiki article Tobacco just posted said:


> Incorrectly classifying an analogy false
> 
> Many people try to refute a correct analogy as a false analogy, often saying "Well, but that's different because", and refer to an existing property that the two things in the analogy indeed do not share. In cases like this, such a refutation is merely a "false charge of fallacy". But as analogies are comparing two different things there are always some properties that A and B do not share, so it is tempting to pull up one such difference to try to disqualify the analogy. For the purposes of the analogy, however, it is important to check if that difference is relevant for the analogy or not.


It was in the article. lol

Now for my input (again).
First, find the serious players and make a club thing where you all meet and have a tournament once a week or something. loser of each game gets the winner a beer or something...

Second, I understand your anger but the answer is really simple. Dont play them, its a waste of time. So... yeah. Dont worry about it

Third, props to you for playing guard and not marines... Everyone should play some marines at some point but it gets annoying, how many people have Dante fighting in their army and stuff... it gets old.

Finally, glhf a we say, and I hope you get away from the jerks into a more fun setting to play.

Cheers,
-JAMOB


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Durandal said:


> Yeah, as we all know, people either play only marine armies or no marine armies. So fuck the cheesy waac marine players, why else would you play them? If its got a 3+ armor save, exclude it from your gaming club, its the only way to have fun.


What a bizarre statement, I collect SW and orks, pretty sure I'm not the only one with both. Orks being my main army (haven't played with the wolves yet).

I find it's not the army type that that takes the fun away, but the person using them.

Also, what's waac? Women's Auxiliary Air Corps?


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> QFT. I think KD hit it on the nose with this statement.
> 
> If you want to only play people with painted armies that is your choice, but to be honest worrying about it is going to make you hate this hobby. Playing with a beautifully painted army or fully painted army might inspire others to paint more.


so, true. it doesnt help with getting stuff painted faster, but painted better.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Grab whatever few good gamer buddies you have and completely freeze those people out. Play games at your houses, and let the douche bags stand on the floor of the FLGS, scratching their head, wondering where everyone went.


the problem MHK is that the store Tobacco mentioned is the de facto "home" FLGS in the city he & i live in. and since he is new he doesnt know that the players who show up every week are not even 50% of the player base who support it. also IG is one of the under represented armies at the store, i think we have more demons players than IG.



Grins1878 said:


> Also, what's waac? Women's Auxiliary Air Corps?


i hope that your joking.

remember Tobacco my offer still stands.


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

It makes me sad that there's so many marine players. I started collecting after playing all the DoW games and reading half of the Horus Heresy, so I was fairly familiar with the fluff of all the teams, but loved everything about the marines. It makes me sad to be 'another marines player'.


----------



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Coldshrike said:


> It makes me sad that there's so many marine players. I started collecting after playing all the DoW games and reading half of the Horus Heresy, so I was fairly familiar with the fluff of all the teams, but loved everything about the marines. It makes me sad to be 'another marines player'.


this is exactly what im worried about, oh well im still going to do it, will just have to grin and bear it


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

The Gunslinger said:


> this is exactly what im worried about, oh well im still going to do it, will just have to grin and bear it


I'd prefer playing vs. marines over IG any day of the week.

To the OP, when you first start out and start playing at your local FLGS you have to identify the dicks. This will be frustrating because you may accidentally play against them. After a while you'll gravitate towards like minded players and your frustrations will go away. The people playing FOTM armies that complain about 'cheese' aren't the kind of player you want to be learning the game from. I highly recommend meeting up with Fallen, he is a knowledgeable player and i've seen him pop into new player threads quite often with solid advice. He's the kind of player you need to play against.


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

Yeah, you'll get it a little bit, but if they're your favourite team just go for it. I got a few groans at first, but once people get the idea you're serious about it they'll lighten up a bit.


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Ravner298 said:


> I'd prefer playing vs. marines over IG any day of the week.
> 
> it depends for me, i dont want to play against marines (DA,BT, CSM excluded) every day.
> 
> ...


:blush::blush::blush:

how kind, was totally not expecting anything of this caliber Ravner298. 

--------------

on the painting issue i think we all agree that we would like to OWN & play against fully painted armies. some people, like myself, arent as efficient when painting or get side tracked by other "goodies" (damn that looks good...). too bad i have both. as long as i know that either you or i have painted SOMETHING between games (not necessarily for the army im playing) i dont complain. 

i might kid (or get kidded) though...:wink:


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

It's incredibly detering for a new player getting into the hobby have people saying his army is cheesy and they refuse to play him, or sit there and get frustrated when he has to look up something in his codex or ask for clarification on a rule he doesn't 100% understand. A few games vs. the type of player the OP has described would turn anyone off to the hobby as a whole. Noone wants to spend time, effort and money into a carefully planned out and painted army just to be labeled cheesy and disregaurded. There's a reason waacer looks alot like wanker at first glance. 

I had a rough start to the hobby. Learning all the rules and what the different armies did, I got stomped constantly. The owner of the store told me to show up with a 1500 pt army on the weekend. He walked me through everything, showed me tricks and tips...joked the whole time. We played almost every weekend after that. I now find people who were in similar situations as I and help them as he helped me. Look for people who are just happy to be rolling the dice and playing with models they enjoy. It's a social hobby first and foremost.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Durandal said:


> Yeah, as we all know, people either play only marine armies or no marine armies. So fuck the cheesy waac marine players, why else would you play them? If its got a 3+ armor save, exclude it from your gaming club, its the only way to have fun.


Don't distort what I said, I was exclusively talking about marine players who don't paint *because* then they can switch to whatever brand new marine codex comes out easily.

They are *very* common.

EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


----------



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Don't distort what I said, I was exclusively talking about marine players who don't paint *because* then they can switch to whatever brand new marine codex comes out easily.
> 
> They are *very* common.
> 
> EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


so if i painted it all in the right colour scheme and converted it to fit my army (which i have some great ideas for :wink: ) it would be ok?


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


The same can be said for every army. Playing Marines doesn't magically make your potential to win games better (unless your army is Necrons or Orks or something).


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


Unless of course you should, Emperor forbid, somehow defeat their chosen of the emperor primarch wannabees! Such a thing is heresy! :laugh:


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> so if i painted it all in the right colour scheme and converted it to fit my army (which i have some great ideas for ) it would be ok?


The type of marine player that gets frowned upon (other than GK, currently) is the kind that leaves everything unpainted, and adopts the most recent and "overpowered" codex release and plays with those rules. If you paint your marines blue, but you wanna try that new blood angels netlist you read about....you're SOL, but if you leave them grey, well....you can argue they were never ultramarines! you've always played BA and its about time they got a new codex!


----------



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> The type of marine player that gets frowned upon (other than GK, currently) is the kind that leaves everything unpainted, and adopts the most recent and "overpowered" codex release and plays with those rules. If you paint your marines blue, but you wanna try that new blood angels netlist you read about....you're SOL, but if you leave them grey, well....you can argue they were never ultramarines! you've always played BA and its about time they got a new codex!


i can see how that would be abit cheeky
no im all about the crimson fists, such a sexy colour scheme 
on a side note, i just love the sweet refreshing taste of a corona :biggrin:


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Fallen said:


> i hope that your joking.


I was about the women's auxiliary air corps, but its one of only 5 or so meanings I could find! haha


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


I think that Vanilla and Chaos flavor Marines don't really fall into the cheese category, especially with the newer flavors that have come out.


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> The type of marine player that gets frowned upon (other than GK, currently) is the kind that leaves everything unpainted, and adopts the most recent and "overpowered" codex release and plays with those rules.


This is one of the reason why l hate unpainted armies.

like l said before l don't mind people who just got a new army and want to try it out ect, or people who are still building there army or painting one unit at a time, thats fine.

however if your SM army you have been playing with is still grey after 7 to 10 months with out even one model seeing colour. Then l will not vs you.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Zion said:


> I think that Vanilla and Chaos flavor Marines don't really fall into the cheese category, especially with the newer flavors that have come out.


Yeah, because 'nilla marines players would _never_ use Sternguard... Oh, that's right, they feature in 80% of nilla armies, maxed out! Derp.

And the same goes for Obliterators in Chaos armies. But I agree that Chaos as a whole isn't that great, so their one cheesy unit I guess they can exploit for all I care.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Yeah, because 'nilla marines players would _never_ use Sternguard... Oh, that's right, they feature in 80% of nilla armies, maxed out! Derp.


I was never too fond of Sternguard when I used to play 'Nilla Marines. But maybe I'm in that 20%. I just never saw the point in putting that many points into that one unit.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> And the same goes for Obliterators in Chaos armies. But I agree that Chaos as a whole isn't that great, so their one cheesy unit I guess they can exploit for all I care.


Oblits are over priced for what they bring. A unit of three runs 225 points and they get horribly murdered in close combat due to being weak to close combat. Add in a lack of options outside of what they get (no Marks or Icons) and you have an okay unit that LOOKS cheesy when compared to the other options.

And I really don't think one unit makes a codex cheesy. The book needs to undercharge for what it brings, or be too good at everything without having realistically exploitable weakness for it to be really cheesy in my book. But that's just me.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Don't distort what I said, I was exclusively talking about marine players who don't paint *because* then they can switch to whatever brand new marine codex comes out easily.
> 
> They are *very* common.
> 
> EDIT: And marine players who call "cheese" in general, there is no Marine army of any kind that gives it's owner the right to call cheese in any situation.


Who gives a shit if they switch codexs and every time a new one drops and never paint? Why does that make anyone undesirable to play against?


----------



## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

i think i've heard every army or race called cheese at some point.

every race has their best units. it just seems like you can't win, no matter what you choose someones going to complain

sucks


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Machiavellismx said:


> i think i've heard every army or race called cheese at some point.
> 
> every race has their best units. it just seems like you can't win, no matter what you choose someones going to complain
> 
> sucks


That's when you ignore people who complain and just do what you enjoy.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Durandal said:


> Who gives a shit if they switch codexs and every time a new one drops and never paint? Why does that make anyone undesirable to play against?


The fact that you would even ask that question is preposterous and implies you're one of those people.

SM's have 6+ codex variants (unfortunately) to choose from, if you don't paint and constantly switch, you're exploiting your opponents who don't have that same option. Can Tau do it? No. Can Necrons do it? No. Nids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks? No, no, no, no.

Pay the price for a new army or gtfo. Trying to free ride on the SM codex wave shows an abject lack of respect for others, and if these people ask for a game, not only will I say no, I will be holding back the urge to spit in their face.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> The fact that you would even ask that question is preposterous and implies you're one of those people.
> 
> SM's have 6+ codex variants (unfortunately) to choose from, if you don't paint and constantly switch, you're exploiting your opponents who don't have that same option. Can Tau do it? No. Can Necrons do it? No. Nids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks? No, no, no, no.
> 
> Pay the price for a new army or gtfo.


Sounds like you need to get GWs balls out of your mouth, bro. I play 3 marine armies, grey knights, blood angels, and space wolves, I have bought all of the armies separately. Sounds like u mad bro. Heres a question. Lets assume we all have 500 dollars available to buy a 40k army, and you can use any army you want. I choose space wolves, you choose tau. One of the reasons I picked marines was because I could change up what codex I used. And I paint my army as my own chapter, so it doesnt really matter which book I use. You chose tau, this was entirely your choice. If I have an army of guys with boltguns in metal boxes, and want to use the slightly different boltguns in metal boxes army, that only requires $100 of extra models, why is this wrong? Sounds economical to me. 

Do you also complain about people who win prizes at tournaments, or buy used models? "baaaw, you got that army for 30% retail due to winning tournaments and buying things used, I bought it at full retail value, not fair"



> Trying to free ride on the SM codex wave shows an abject lack of respect for others, and if these people ask for a game, not only will I say no, I will be holding back the urge to spit in their face.


I dont see how it makes a difference to you, or why it should. If I codex jump with marines, I am trying to save money, how does this hurt you? Dont you have better things to do than "hold back the urge to spit in" the face of people who codex jump? Why are you so angry, you need a job and a girlfriend bro.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

JAMOB said:


> sure thats the right link?


If you guys are seriously suggesting that objecting to using greenstuff is anywhere in the same league of rationality as objecting to playing unpainted armies - something this membership is clearly divided on - then you are either not very bright or simply trolling.



> The fact that you would even ask that question is preposterous and implies you're one of those people.





> Trying to free ride on the SM codex wave shows an abject lack of respect for others, and if these people ask for a game, not only will I say no, I will be holding back the urge to spit in their face.


Exactly. These types of people don't get it. They're frankly second rate and I'm getting pretty tired of being told that I'm unreasonably arrogant about this. There shouldn't be a compromise with people who muddle down the hobby to that extent. Obviously, that army-swapping behavior is quite a step further than not painting armies, but it is still prevalent and I suspect it is a big overlap, as this talk seems to be hitting a nerve with people who probably feel inferior to those who paint and stand by their armies.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I can see where MetalHandkercheif is coming from. Leaving your marine army unpainted so you can switch from chapter to chapter as each (presumably more powerful) codex comes out does seem to be against the spirit of the hobby. 

@Durandal. Can we have less ad hominem attacks please? They don't help your argument, they just make you appear immature.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Rems said:


> @Durandal. Can we have less ad hominem attacks please? They don't help your argument, they just make you appear immature.


Sorry, when I see such blatantly stupid and poorly thought out arguments as those above, I cant help but think about the damage these people are doing to the hobby. And I love the hobby, so it makes me mad. I will try and refrain in the future.



Tobacco said:


> Exactly. These types of people don't get it. They're frankly second rate and I'm getting pretty tired of being told that I'm unreasonably arrogant about this. There shouldn't be a compromise with people who muddle down the hobby to that extent. Obviously, that army-swapping behavior is quite a step further than not painting armies, but it is still prevalent and I suspect it is a big overlap, as this talk seems to be hitting a nerve with people who probably feel inferior to those who paint and stand by their armies.


Except, I paint and stand by my armies, and am not bothered by this behavior, so your whole argument falls flat on its ass. I dont feel inferior to anyone who paints or plays better than me, because I dont need to validate myself through a game.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Durandal said:


> Except, I paint and stand by my armies, and am not bothered by this behavior, so your whole argument falls flat on its ass. I dont feel inferior to anyone who paints or plays better than me, because I dont need to validate myself through a game.


My argument falls flat on its ass because a single person (you) doesn't fit the description of what myself and others are describing? And people say I'm being self righteous.


----------



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Tobacco said:


> My argument falls flat on its ass because a single person (you) doesn't fit the description of what myself and others are describing? And people say I'm being self righteous.


The chances are that most of the people that inhabit this site are self righteous about some issue or another when it comes to how they view specific aspects of this hobby. In the end who gives a fuck because all the discussion will likely not change our minds, so just deal with the differences, play the fucking game and have fun....hopefully with like-minded people so the differences are not blown out of proportion to such a degree that the fun is sucked out of the game.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Or, rather than find like minded people and set up a little clique of "our way or you cant play with us" why not just play with everyone and adapt a little? Meet them half way?


----------



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Actually my like-minded group are people who do 'go with the flow'...but yea I'm cool with that as well, stops petty bickering either way.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Durandal said:


> Or, rather than find like minded people and set up a little clique of "our way or you cant play with us"


Seems to work for a number of groups with minimum-painted limits and such, as exampled in this thread. It is probably a collective pressure to raise standards.



> why not just play with everyone and adapt a little? Meet them half way?


Eventually, I think people who do prefer playing painted armies have to concede a bit just to play the game since the unpainted armies are so prevalent, and probably find people with unpainted armies who are good sports and they like playing against, but at the same time, I don't think those that feel strongly about painted armies should or would compromise totally on this issue (some in this thread stating with finality that they do not ever play unpainted armies). Also, this isn't a compromise issue - an army is either painted or it isn't painted - your idea of a middle ground is really just your side's ideal while giving up nothing. A real compromise would be having your gaming club set painted limits on games. A genius doesn't compromise with a fool. Food that is poisoned is just poison.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Durandal said:


> Sorry, when I see such blatantly stupid and poorly thought out arguments


Wow! Not only do you appear to think you're playing a completely different game, you have zero self insight.



Durandal said:


> Sounds like you need to get GWs balls out of your mouth, bro.


This comment is presumably representative of how mentally stunted you must be.



Durandal said:


> Sounds like u mad bro.


Sounds like you need to crawl back in the hole you crawled out of, bro.



Durandal said:


> I play 3 marine armies, grey knights, blood angels, and space wolves


And there it is, your adverse reaction to my comments is just because you're so bumhurt. Awwwww.



Durandal said:


> Heres a question. Lets assume we all have 500 dollars available to buy a 40k army, and you can use any army you want. I choose space wolves, you choose tau. One of the reasons I picked marines was because I could change up what codex I used. And I paint my army as my own chapter, so it doesnt really matter which book I use. You chose tau, this was entirely your choice. If I have an army of guys with boltguns in metal boxes, and want to use the slightly different boltguns in metal boxes army, that only requires $100 of extra models, why is this wrong? Sounds economical to me.


Which to me highlights that you thought it would be fine to do this. Warhammer 40K is not about cutting corners so you can have more fun (presumably because you think winning is fun) at the expense of others. Your perspective on the hobby is diametrically opposed to the spirit of the hobby.

Believe it or not, I chose Tau, Nids and Dark Eldar as my armies because WOW they appealed more to me. But in choosing those armies I also bring variety to this game, which is sorely needed in a sea of urchins like yourself. People are practically lining up to play me - and normally I have great fun playing _anyone_ but your ilk.



Durandal said:


> Do you also complain about people who win prizes at tournaments, or buy used models? "baaaw, you got that army for 30% retail due to winning tournaments and buying things used, I bought it at full retail value, not fair"


That's... So far from what I said that it's not even funny. I am not complaining about saving money. I have lots of money. I am complaining about lazy fucks not putting the effort in so they can, and I repeat myself here, go with the newest and most powerful codex at all times to win at all costs. That's it.



Durandal said:


> I dont see how it makes a difference to you, or why it should. If I codex jump with marines, I am trying to save money, how does this hurt you?


You don't have to codex jump to save money. You spend even less money if you just stick to the first codex you said you were playing. Seems like your excuse of saving money is just a cover so you can say that's why you're constantly playing the most OP codex you can find that is semi-applicable.



Durandal said:


> Sounds like u mad bro.


But yes, I am mad. Of course I am. These people make me seethe with anger, because they don't care for other's enjoyment of the game, they just plow on with their win at all cost bullshittery. The difference here is that you seem to believe my anger isn't justified, which of course you're allowed to think, however moronic it is.


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Tobacco said:


> Seems to work for a number of groups with minimum-painted limits and such, as exampled in this thread. It is probably a collective pressure to raise standards.
> 
> Eventually, I think people who do prefer playing painted armies have to concede a bit just to play the game since the unpainted armies are so prevalent, and probably find people with unpainted armies who are good sports and they like playing against, but at the same time, I don't think those that feel strongly about painted armies should or would compromise totally on this issue (some in this thread stating with finality that they do not ever play unpainted armies). Also, this isn't a compromise issue - an army is either painted or it isn't painted - your idea of a middle ground is really just your side's ideal while giving up nothing. A real compromise would be having your gaming club set painted limits on games. A genius doesn't compromise with a fool. Food that is poisoned is just poison.


EDIT: Ninja'd so I added quote for clarity.

I think less extreme analogies would help your case, insults never win arguments. Have you seen the army painting challenge in heresy online competitions? This is probably what you want. A club in which everyone is required to paint 1 unit per month. This would be a compromise without being to imposing on either sides ideas.

(but you should include the Real life passes they use there, which means you can delay work for a month because you have stuff going on IRL.)


----------



## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

Tobacco said:


> A genius doesn't compromise with a fool.


Interesting choice of words.

Just when it looks like this thread is dying, in you jump with more flowery speach that means nothing.

Have I just been trolled for the first time?:gamer1:

I dont know, but no more chasing circles for me.:shok:

Whatever you choose to do in future Tobacco, have fun and good luck.:biggrin:


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Durandal said:


> You chose tau, this was entirely your choice. If I have an army of guys with boltguns in metal boxes, and want to use the slightly different boltguns in metal boxes army, that only requires $100 of extra models, why is this wrong? Sounds economical to me.
> 
> I dont see how it makes a difference to you, or why it should. If I codex jump with marines, I am trying to save money, how does this hurt you? Dont you have better things to do than "hold back the urge to spit in" the face of people who codex jump? Why are you so angry, you need a job and a girlfriend bro.


besides the rage, l do understand your argument for trying to keep your cost down, 

however l have had some bad cases, for an example there is one player l have seen a few times who l now never give a game to (few people do) due to the fact he will change his army to beat yours. So when l run my Orks his fast BA's become slow SW when l run IG the SW become BA and so on. 

l have also seen people with chaos, SW and BA trying to run them as GK even though none of them have the weapons to match (aka bolters and knifes are not Storm bolters and halberds!!!).

there was a serpent case ages ago when Chaos player was bitching how crap his dex was, and said until they become better he will use them as SW. Other races can't do this.

in the end it makes more bad power gamers who have to use the most cheese so they can to win at all cost. Which goes hand in hand with people who suck the fun and spirit of the game.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> And there it is, your adverse reaction to my comments is just because you're so bumhurt. Awwwww.


No, it's because you're totally, completely wrong.



> Which to me highlights that you thought it would be fine to do this. Warhammer 40K is not about cutting corners so you can have more fun (presumably because you think winning is fun) at the expense of others.


I think you have the wrong idea about Codex hopping.

Disclaimer: I do not Codex hop. I have played Blood Angels since 3rd edition, even during the days of the crappy White Dwarf Codex.

Many people who Codex hop don't do it just to to be the biggest raging douchebag in hopes of getting as many free wins as possible from various new players. There are *definitely* people who are like this but these types are basically universally reviled in our hobby by more casual/fluff players and competitive gamers alike.

Most of the people who Codex hop do it because they're trying to find an army that suits their style best. They have Space Marine models and they want to have fun using them so they dabble with the different books until they find one that best suits their style. This "style" could be more fluff-centric (say a player wants an army with a lot of Terminators so he fiddles with the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolf books to see which he finds fits his idea of how a Terminator army should best work) or it could be more gaming centric where the player is looking for the army that he wins the most games with (note we are *not* talking about being a dick and stomping noobs and laughing in their faces, we're talking about straight up gaming performance, nothing less). Either approach is fine.



> Your perspective on the hobby is diametrically opposed to the spirit of the hobby.


No, your perspective is literal poison to this hobby. You are full of anger and hatred toward people who enjoy the hobby in different ways than you. *You* are the problem. You shun people for their personal preferences. It's disgusting and you should be ashamed.

Notice how it's almost always the self-proclaimed casual/fluff/for-fun-only players that are full of rage and disdain for others involved in the hobby? That should tell you something. Durandal was wrong to become confrontational and rude with you but I don't think you're aware of the failings of your own viewpoint.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Most of the people who Codex hop do it because they're trying to find an army that suits their style best. They have Space Marine models and they want to have fun using them so they dabble with the different books until they find one that best suits their style. This "style" could be more fluff-centric (say a player wants an army with a lot of Terminators so he fiddles with the Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolf books to see which he finds fits his idea of how a Terminator army should best work) or it could be more gaming centric where the player is looking for the army that he wins the most games with (note we are *not* talking about being a dick and stomping noobs and laughing in their faces, we're talking about straight up gaming performance, nothing less). Either approach is fine.


That's fair, but all the while posting here, I've been crystal clear on the fact that I am only talking about those who codex hop to win at all cost. That _excludes_ those who have legitimate reasons for doing so. I know most of the people in my area, so I know who's doing what for what reason. It's pretty obvious when someone is a WAAC douche.

Also, I wouldn't care one bit if it was a tournament. I am not a casual/ for fun player like you say, but I can differ between the two modes of play. That's a switch not everyone has, unfortunately.

Seeing as you misunderstood everything I said from the get go, I'll ignore the rest of your post.


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

@ Tobacco, i searched you because WAY earlier in this thread you mentioned you play 1k IG.

and looking up your list its literally a 1k vet spam list. i can see why people would not want to play you using that list, since at 1k IG can runaway with things easy. so dont be dishearten if people dont want to play you, outside of team games or the like, its simply because whatever they play/brought with them that night would have a hard time dealing with your army and would likely not end in a "fun" outing for them. hell even 1500 is considered by many to still be a "small" game and is not balanced. currently its sitting between 1850 & 2000. 

remember, just have fun if you do play the game, your disdain of much progress your opponent has made/makes on painting his army is not something you should be concerned about.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Durandal said:


> Sounds like you need to get GWs balls out of your mouth, bro. I play 3 marine armies, grey knights, blood angels, and space wolves, I have bought all of the armies separately. Sounds like u mad bro. Heres a question. Lets assume we all have 500 dollars available to buy a 40k army, and you can use any army you want. I choose space wolves, you choose tau. One of the reasons I picked marines was because I could change up what codex I used. And I paint my army as my own chapter, so it doesnt really matter which book I use. You chose tau, this was entirely your choice. If I have an army of guys with boltguns in metal boxes, and want to use the slightly different boltguns in metal boxes army, that only requires $100 of extra models, why is this wrong? Sounds economical to me.
> 
> Do you also complain about people who win prizes at tournaments, or buy used models? "baaaw, you got that army for 30% retail due to winning tournaments and buying things used, I bought it at full retail value, not fair"
> 
> ...


You could have made the best argument in the world in this but by the second "bro" and "ball" comment I decided that reading a CS Gato novel was more constructive. Gotta love the Jersey Shore era of gaming I guess, and I thought Poke' era was bad.

Moving onto the other posts. Half the people who have been posting in this are forum trolls at best, inflamed assholes in the least and really need to learn when going to far is going to far. Guy said he did not like and will not play against unpainted armies and for some reason a fucking witch hunt started

(if you took offense to the troll comment, then its a good chance I was talking about you)

And people say I am the one with fucking mental problems, least I can take medicine for what I have, seriously some of you are terminal.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> That's fair, but all the while posting here, I've been crystal clear on the fact that I am only talking about those who codex hop to win at all cost.


Okay, I actually got a friend to look over this thread and neither he nor I saw even an implication that you only meant people that abuse Codex hopping to get free wins. So... probably not so crystal clear, hence my confusion. This seems more like an attempt to backpedal after making a sweeping remark.


----------



## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Notice how it's almost always the self-proclaimed casual/fluff/for-fun-only players that are full of rage and disdain for others involved in the hobby?


This is probably the single truest quote I have ever heard on this forum.


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

@Tobacco: Your preference for painted armies is yours, not your opponents. Not everyone is your kind of special snowflake, we're all unique, just like everybody else  . This doesn't mean they don't like painted armies either, however. So consider something. If you want more people with painted armies and can paint, offer to paint their armies in a scheme of their choice. Once you get 'good' (if you aren't already, obviously), charge a tiny bit for this. They pay $10-20, you get a shiny army to play against, everyone wins.

Or you could just keep posting here. :/

@MetalHandkerchief: Katie specifically talked about bad players like that. Reread her post (it was directed at Tobacco too, not you btw), it's there.

Enjoy your ragestorm, kids. Peace.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

This is why I do not play and only paint ^_^. But when I do play I guess I could be accused of dex hopping because I do in fact have a chapter that I will play different codexes with. But I mainly do it for a change of pace and I never play Space Puppies. 

Sigh, once upon a time my army was called cheese, velveta even. Now its not even government processed cheese (talking about my Eldar, my favorite list is the Wraithguard list, not a horrid list but no where near tournament caliber).


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Okay, I actually got a friend to look over this thread and neither he nor I saw even an implication that you only meant people that abuse Codex hopping to get free wins. So... probably not so crystal clear, hence my confusion. This seems more like an attempt to backpedal after making a sweeping remark.


*clears throat*



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Which to me highlights that you thought it would be fine to do this. Warhammer 40K is not about cutting corners so you can have more fun (presumably because you think winning is fun) at the expense of others.
> That's... So far from what I said that it's not even funny. I am not complaining about saving money. I have lots of money. I am complaining about lazy fucks not putting the effort in so they can, and I repeat myself here, go with the newest and most powerful codex at all times to win at all costs. That's it.
> 
> (...)
> ...


Time to leave this thread. :grin:


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> This is why I do not play and only paint ^_^. But when I do play I guess I could be accused of dex hopping because I do in fact have a chapter that I will play different codexes with. But I mainly do it for a change of pace and I never play Space Puppies.
> 
> Sigh, once upon a time my army was called cheese, velveta even. Now its not even government processed cheese (talking about my Eldar, my favorite list is the Wraithguard list, not a horrid list but no where near tournament caliber).


 There are count-as armies that work so well with Space Wolves so well, though (Iron Warriors, most likely). Play the codex you like (if you do it without lots of crunch, which you or others might not do), enjoy beating your opponent.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> *clears throat*
> 
> 
> 
> Time to leave this thread. :grin:


I see it, but I still don't think it was very clear at all. =/ Neither did anyone else that I had read this. I'll apologize for not understanding but I plan on sticking around in this thread.


----------



## willydstyle (Sep 30, 2011)

I joined this forum expressly to reply to this thread. While reading it, I have seen numerous claims that playing specific armies is "WAAC" or is just to get "easy wins."

There is a major flaw in this argument: if you *don't* want your opponent, or another player to play these armies, your motivation is because you want your opponent to have a lower chance to beat you. This means that, by extrapolation, you want to have an easier time beating your opponent.

So, if you're trying to apply social pressure to other players, to dissuade them from playing the army that they *want to play* just because you think the army is too powerful, it's because you want to win. Who is really the WAAC player here?


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> I see it, but I still don't think it was very clear at all. =/ Neither did anyone else that I had read this. I'll apologize for not understanding but I plan on sticking around in this thread.


Ok, one last post: I ment I was going to leave it... Either I have a communication problem today or everything I say is being misinterpreted. Which is probably one and the same :shok:


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Ok, one last post: I ment I was going to leave it... Either I have a communication problem today or everything I say is being misinterpreted. Which is probably one and the same


No, it was really that your last words in that post were rather ambiguous. There was the chance that you were either making note that you were stepping out of the thread in a decent fashion, or that you were being an arrogant cunt and suggesting Katie do the leaving. 

Considering you come off as abrasive and/or a bit of a jerk at times, the second might have seemed more likely than the first.


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

darkreever said:


> No, it was really that your last words in that post were rather ambiguous. There was the chance that you were either making note that you were stepping out of the thread in a decent fashion, or that you were being an arrogant cunt and suggesting Katie do the leaving.
> 
> Considering you come off as abrasive and/or a bit of a jerk at times, the second might have seemed more likely than the first.


 He still hasn't left, either.

Stay or leave, man, just do it.


----------



## Tobacco (Sep 24, 2011)

Fallen said:


> @ Tobacco, i searched you because WAY earlier in this thread you mentioned you play 1k IG.
> 
> and looking up your list its literally a 1k vet spam list. i can see why people would not want to play you using that list, since at 1k IG can runaway with things easy. so dont be dishearten if people dont want to play you, outside of team games or the like, its simply because whatever they play/brought with them that night would have a hard time dealing with your army and would likely not end in a "fun" outing for them. hell even 1500 is considered by many to still be a "small" game and is not balanced. currently its sitting between 1850 & 2000.
> 
> remember, just have fun if you do play the game, your disdain of much progress your opponent has made/makes on painting his army is not something you should be concerned about.


Yeah, I had a discussion about this at the IGMB because I am actually concerned about this aspect of the list. (http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=begin&action=display&thread=13929)

Being totally new to the hobby, it is pure accident to me that what I thought was going to be a fun idea I had recreating would turn out to be a cheese list, so I am looking for ways to temper it. I didn't have any intention of spamming flyers and artillery in the list (_real leafblower_), I just wanted a simple mechanized force.


----------



## willydstyle (Sep 30, 2011)

There is no such thing as a "cheese" list. List design is as much about aesthetics as it is about game play, and if you think that a task force of battle-hardened veterans speeding to the fight in their armored steeds is cool, play that.

If you think that a "real leafblower" is a cool list, play that.

If you want to make a list to give you the best chance of winning the game, play that.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

willydstyle said:


> There is no such thing as a "cheese" list. List design is as much about aesthetics as it is about game play, and if you think that a task force of battle-hardened veterans speeding to the fight in their armored steeds is cool, play that.


There is such a thing as holding back though. If you're playing a list that will run over your opponent who is only playing a fun list, then you're it's kind of abusive to your opponent. 
I do agree with you though. If you want to play a list, just offer to show it to your opponent before hand so he knows that he should make a competitive list.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

willydstyle said:


> There is no such thing as a "cheese" list. List design is as much about aesthetics as it is about game play, and if you think that a task force of battle-hardened veterans speeding to the fight in their armored steeds is cool, play that.
> 
> If you think that a "real leafblower" is a cool list, play that.
> 
> If you want to make a list to give you the best chance of winning the game, play that.


You are correct. However, people that bring "focused" lists intended to be sharpened for tournament capable play need to give their opponents a heads up in advance "hey, I was going to play my strongest list today, just FYI".

This really shows you respect your opponent and wouldn't mind equal treatment, I.E. sportsmanship 101.

Some of the reason being that a vast array of units in 40K aren't any good whatsoever. But a lot of people find many of these units cool. Stealth Suits are my weakness, and in casual play I try to include them when I can although they are bottom of the barrel for points efficiency. Same goes for Reaver jetbikes, Warp spiders etc. etc.

By being secretive of what mindset you're bringing to the game, it eventually creates a culture where noone will ever bring these "cool, but bad" units, which hurts variety and fun.



darkreever said:


> No, it was really that your last words in that post were rather ambiguous. There was the chance that you were either making note that you were stepping out of the thread in a decent fashion, or that you were being an arrogant cunt and suggesting Katie do the leaving.
> 
> Considering you come off as abrasive and/or a bit of a jerk at times, the second might have seemed more likely than the first.


That's why I came back to specify. I have no illusions, I never sugar coat my words and always speak my mind, but I don't go out of my way to spew profanity either.



SageoftheTimes said:


> He still hasn't left, either.
> 
> Stay or leave, man, just do it.


I might as well stay since Durandal ran out of child's profanities and has shrunk into the night. Or is that you, sock puppet?


----------



## willydstyle (Sep 30, 2011)

I show respect for my opponent by teaching them how to make better armies, and how to play the game better.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

willydstyle said:


> I show respect for my opponent by teaching them how to make better armies, and how to play the game better.


That's great! But that comment makes me think you _are_ one of those people who bring sharp lists to a casual environment without a heads up? Not trying to judge you here, just seemed you are attempting a lie by omission, or a weasel move.

I am all for improving standards in the metagame by helping others up to one's own level. That's usually what I try to do, though I try not to overdo it. I do however have a nagging feeling that's not what you meant.


----------



## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Tobacco said:


> Being totally new to the hobby, it is pure accident to me that what I thought was going to be a fun idea I had recreating would turn out to be a cheese list, so I am looking for ways to temper it. I didn't have any intention of spamming flyers and artillery in the list (_real leafblower_), I just wanted a simple mechanized force.


You have created a simple Mechanized IG force, it just happens to be an efficient and effectively built one. From what I remember from your OP the majority of the SM players at that LGS were SW and BA players, who also happen to have a Codex more than capable of building an efficient and effective list....leads me to believe the derision you received was because they knew you had an equal chance of defeating them.

That said, it is a condition that some sort of conversation and list swapping goes on before any game so everyone's on the same page and knows what they're facing...polite refusal is always a possibility.


----------



## willydstyle (Sep 30, 2011)

ceramicnapkin said:


> That's great! But that comment makes me think you are one of those people who bring sharp lists to a casual environment without a heads up? Not trying to judge you here, just seemed you are attempting a lie by omission, or a weasel move.
> 
> I am all for improving standards in the metagame by helping others up to one's own level. That's usually what I try to do, though I try not to overdo it. I do however have a nagging feeling that's not what you meant.


By organizing the local 40k scene at Guardian Games, I have shifted the play environment to one where people bring what list they want, no matter how strong or weak that list is, and don't complain about the results.

I have a reputation locally for being an extremely "fair" player. I play by the rules, as 100% as possible, even when those rules give me a disadvantage, and if my opponent overlooks something (such as attacking one of my vehicles during my own assault phase, for example), I point it out to them, because I do not think a victory is worthwhile if it was gained through deception, either directly or by omission.

I routinely receive sportsmanship awards. And yet I play a dreaded mechanized Guard list, a list that I'm sure many of you would deride as being "not fun."

What I'm trying to say is that people need to re-think their base concepts about the divide between "casual" and "competitive." You can play well in a casual environment, and have plenty of fun with a hard list, and you can play with a weak list competitively if you feel you need that challenge.

You do not know me, sir, and I do not appreciate that you have implied that I am a liar and a bad sportsman.


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Notice how it's almost always the self-proclaimed casual/fluff/for-fun-only players that are full of rage and disdain for others involved in the hobby?


Heh, reading these boards it seems most people get hot under the collar about it! I'm casual, fluff and for-fun-only but don't get irate about it. It's only a game like, no point being arsey about it  (I know you didn't say 'ALWAYS', and I know you're not being arsey too, just throwing my penny in there  ). 

I think a lot of casual players get pissy (was the same on Warcraft) because they either don't have as much time as they'd like to play, or they don't have the knowledge that people who are bang into the hobby have. I raise my hand at not knowing enough about it. I remember more rules from RT than from the current edition (I've been playing since it came out), and confess that I know only the armies I play with (orks and wolves (although I haven't played them, just been reading up on them)). That said, everytime I play with the orks (sounds vulgar) I learn stuff about my army that someone who's well into it would probably already know. 

I don't see the point in getting pissed off over a hobby the same way I don't see the point in getting pissed off over sports :biggrin:


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

willydstyle said:


> By organizing the local 40k scene at Guardian Games, I have shifted the play environment to one where people bring what list they want, no matter how strong or weak that list is, and don't complain about the results.
> 
> I have a reputation locally for being an extremely "fair" player. I play by the rules, as 100% as possible, even when those rules give me a disadvantage, and if my opponent overlooks something (such as attacking one of my vehicles during my own assault phase, for example), I point it out to them, because I do not think a victory is worthwhile if it was gained through deception, either directly or by omission.
> 
> ...


I didn't imply you were a liar, I was simply fishing for a more detailed explanation, which I now got. See? I like how you changed my name in your quote for the giggles.

Sounds like you have a good thing going, cherish it. Not everyone are as lucky, or as blessed to be able to put in the hard work to get it done. On this note, I am referring to the OP, who has been shut out of his local gaming hub for being cheesy out of hand, by people who never played him before. This is just a reminder of what the topic once was.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

There is no such thing as a "broken" codex, rather, people take a codex and find ways to break it. They tell their friends about it, it spreads, people all over the place, the codex is now regarded as universally broken.


As for dex hopping, it's fine IMO. As long as you're not tailoring your list. That's just being a jerk (see "pulling a Neil").

I have a friend who literally STOPS playing a codex alltogether if one or two people can beat him while he's using it. He started off with Tau, hated them because of their low Armor Save. Ignored all the amazing firepower and mobility, their save wasn't an MEQ, so they sucked. He played CSM, he kept getting stomped (by me) because I was taking him out from range and slaughtered Typhus and a squad of oblits with a 10-man unit of honorguard in the space of 3 turns. He switched to Nids. GKs came out, he saw them as really superpowerful, he runs a scouting, teleporting dredknight and terminators and paladins. Seriously, that's his whole list.


There are people like this, and there are people who want to legitimately (forgive the spelling XD) find a codex that suits them. I don't know why putting down a blanket opinion (on anything, really) is such a good idea.


----------



## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

i am a massive tau fan, and i play them cus everyone i know either has space marines, or orks, and yes, i do tire from playing the same army over and over again, and i highly agree with the part of them boasting how they will own my tau, jus cus he is sm. and against blobs of grey, it does dull the game a fair bit if you ask me. but best of luck to you mate


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Exactly. These types of people don't get it. They're frankly second rate and I'm getting pretty tired of being told that I'm unreasonably arrogant about this.


Why did noone else catch the irony in that.



> As for dex hopping, it's fine IMO. As long as you're not tailoring your list. That's just being a jerk (see "pulling a Neil").


Pulling a Neil is starting to catch on internationally, me thinks.

There's alot of debate about here that is all solved by simple sportsmanship. When you ask someone for a game, you simply inform them how competative you're playing. Something as simple as, "I want to try out this new list, it's not that strong though", or the polar, "I want to tune up my tournie list today, mind bringing yours?". It's simple communication.

As far as the other arguement going on in here, there are a few very different mindsets on efficiency vs. waac. There are people posting here that are quite blatently waac'ers, and some that are effecient...or both. Codex hopping is most common in SM armies because of how easy it is, combined with how many codex's GW blesses their posterchildren with. Generally speaking though, the type of SM player that the people here agree to have to most beef with are the sea of grey chapter hoppers simply because the type of mindset it takes to hop to every new dex is a waac'er.


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Okay, there was no answer before, what the hell is waac? As in it's definition?

Cheers.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Win at all costs. It has various degrees of meaning. Some would consider someone who takes a hard a nails tourney list to every game as a waac player while others would say it better applies to those who try to bend the rules, rules lawyer or act unsportsmanlike to try an get a win.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Rems said:


> Win at all costs. It has various degrees of meaning. Some would consider someone who takes a hard a nails tourney list to every game as a waac player while others would say it better applies to those who try to bend the rules, rules lawyer or act unsportsmanlike to try an get a win.


More often than not, it's both, and it's never an enjoyable game.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I didn't imply you were a liar, I was simply fishing for a more detailed explanation, which I now got. See? I like how you changed my name in your quote for the giggles.
> 
> Sounds like you have a good thing going, cherish it. Not everyone are as lucky, or as blessed to be able to put in the hard work to get it done. On this note, I am referring to the OP, who has been shut out of his local gaming hub for being cheesy out of hand, by people who never played him before. This is just a reminder of what the topic once was.


oh really?



> That's great! But that comment makes me think you _are_ one of those people who bring sharp lists to a casual environment without a heads up? Not trying to judge you here, just seemed you are attempting a lie by omission, or a weasel move.





> seems like you are attempting a lie


----------



## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

You know I read through this post and I think it has turned into a uncontrolled monster that its creator never intended LOL.

But on a serious note I play black templar but I do have a space wolf codex I got from a buddy that didnt want it any more. So I have been getting the itch to try them out to see if I like their playstyle and I dont know if its just my game store but if i told my opponent "hey I wanna try out these SW, I would like to see how they run." I would get no hate from them they are cool with that. Now on the flip side if I did like them I would buy the army for them I wouldnt keep using my Black templars for SW because I dont want to confuse people with what I am playing.

@Tobacco 
Dude chill for being a new player you have some pretty high demands from others, I agree that a fully painted army is fun to play against thats why out of 3 years of being in the hobby I have only played 6 games because I dont feel right not having my army painted when going up against other players. But if you keep this attitude up man your gonna hate the hobby and your area will lose a IG player and that is a lose to everybody.


@everyone else
Hey guys try to be a little more civil(if you get mad this applies to you) this is supposed to be a place to bring your ideas together for the benfit of everybody not a pissing match.


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Cheers rems and rav! Much appreciated


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Ravner298 said:


> Why did noone else catch the irony in that.
> 
> 
> 
> Pulling a Neil is starting to catch on internationally, me thinks.


 
You think so? XD


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Same goes for Reaver jetbikes, Warp spiders etc. etc.


 Just wanted to comment here that Reavers are actually decent anti-vehicle units with Heat Lances, due to their speed & the ability to do an assault move (due to being Eldar Jetbikes).



> I might as well stay since Durandal ran out of child's profanities and has shrunk into the night. Or is that you, sock puppet?


I meant you haven't been consistent, and I was calling you out out on it. If you really feel I am a sock puppet, feel free to call a mod, and waste their time as the find me using different IPs then he does.



Alsojames said:


> There is no such thing as a "broken" codex, rather, people take a codex and find ways to break it. They tell their friends about it, it spreads, people all over the place, the codex is now regarded as universally broken.


 They try to find the most efficient way to play. I haven't seen truly broken codecies in 5e, only codecies designed badly in 4e (and eariler).


> As for dex hopping, it's fine IMO. As long as you're not tailoring your list. That's just being a jerk (see "pulling a Neil").


 People change and desire new experiences. Along with the fact that they can buy a few more models and swap dexes means that Marines are great to play. This fits very well into playing what you like (aka, I agree with you).


> I have a friend who literally STOPS playing a codex alltogether if one or two people can beat him while he's using it. He started off with Tau, hated them because of their low Armor Save. Ignored all the amazing firepower and mobility, their save wasn't an MEQ, so they sucked. He played CSM, he kept getting stomped (by me) because I was taking him out from range and slaughtered Typhus and a squad of oblits with a 10-man unit of honorguard in the space of 3 turns. He switched to Nids. GKs came out, he saw them as really superpowerful, he runs a scouting, teleporting dredknight and terminators and paladins. Seriously, that's his whole list.


 Imagine if you played against an army and you were going to lose, period, and there'd be no challenge to it for either side. Your friend's trying out what they're interested in, then finding codecies aren't done perfectly (far from it, pre-5e). Tau's basically got one build with some differences between FA & HS choices, which does change how the army runs, but not nearly enough. Nids were designed by Cruddace, and were alright before their FAQ, and while still playable, they aren't great. CSM is...just overpriced. GKs have a lot of viability, though (say what you want of Ward, he writes codecies where you can run most of the units in the dex) so good luck there. I'm not you, so I don't know the whole story.

Now, if this person wants to be unbeaten by everyone constantly, that's different, but in most cases, people want challenge, and it's a shame how hard they have to work for it.


> There are people like this, and there are people who want to legitimately (forgive the spelling XD) find a codex that suits them. I don't know why putting down a blanket opinion (on anything, really) is such a good idea.


First, you spelled it correctly. The majority do want to play legitimately, and I think in a year or so, it'll be easier to do so (I hope GW finds a balanced place for all Dexes, instead of this round-robin approach).


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

Rems said:


> Win at all costs. It has various degrees of meaning. Some would consider someone who takes a hard a nails tourney list to every game as a waac player while others would say it better applies to those who try to bend the rules, rules lawyer or act unsportsmanlike to try an get a win.


 I think there's also another form of WAAC player, described by Neil here. Worthy of a Lictor.



stalarious said:


> You know I read through this post and I think it has turned into a uncontrolled monster that its creator never intended LOL.
> 
> But on a serious note I play black templar but I do have a space wolf codex I got from a buddy that didnt want it any more. So I have been getting the itch to try them out to see if I like their playstyle and I dont know if its just my game store but if i told my opponent "hey I wanna try out these SW, I would like to see how they run." I would get no hate from them they are cool with that. Now on the flip side if I did like them I would buy the army for them I wouldnt keep using my Black templars for SW because I dont want to confuse people with what I am playing.


 This is exactly what people should do. Why spend $300-600 on something you don't want, try before you buy. Research.



> @everyone else
> Hey guys try to be a little more civil(if you get mad this applies to you) this is supposed to be a place to bring your ideas together for the benfit of everybody not a pissing match.


You clearly haven't been on 40k forums for long, they don't exactly have a great reputation for tactics (although they're great for painting/conversion advice). :/

One can hope, though.


----------



## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't think anybody would find a problem with somebody, for example, using BT to test out SW. In a friendly game, I wouldn't care if somebody used army men and lego figures as "Counts as" to determine what army they want to invest in.

But if you were to use BT to play as SW all the time, then when GK you suddenly decide that this is the army you want now. It shows that you don't really have a commitment to the army or the game. It makes you seem committed to trying to win and to being a douche.

I don't see a problem with hopping around to test out, it's when you intentionally do not stick with an army just for the sake of getting a more powerful army. I play Tau, I love them but they are lacking. I can't pretend every game that they are Eldar or GK or anything but Tau. I don't expect other players to let me do this either. Nobody is so special that they should be able to play 50% of the armies in the line up. I play with Tau, I choose it, I stick with it no matter how bad the codex stands. I would expect anyone I play against to stick with their army.


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

Well said. I have a vanilla marines condex because I like space marines. After playing a few games, I have realized that SW or BA might suit my play style a bit better. Will I try them? Probably. Will I jump between codexes? Probably not. Do I think the makes me a duche? Hell no! And Do I love Rhetorical questions? Hell yes!


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

SageoftheTimes said:


> Just wanted to comment here that Reavers are actually decent anti-vehicle units with Heat Lances, due to their speed & the ability to do an assault move (due to being Eldar Jetbikes).


The most effective way to use Reavers is in an anti-infantry support role, always turbo boosting over enemies while using chain snares. Unfortunately, that is generally a role DE don't really need to dump that many points in at all since the entire army is anti horde. And furthermore, Scourges are cheaper and do it better, if you really want something like that, which should be unnecessary .

The Reaver Jbike is too expensive to stick an anti armor option on 1 in 3 of them and think they can perform in this capacity... So it is generally considered a newbie mistake to do so. Pretty much all new DE players try this config once or twice because they got some Reavers in every battle force. Unless they had a few lucky first test games with them at first, most give up trying this after a while.

It is also much easier to kill Reavers in CQC.

But I digress, carry on! :grin:


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Tobacco said:


> If you guys are seriously suggesting that objecting to using greenstuff is anywhere in the same league of rationality as objecting to playing unpainted armies - something this membership is clearly divided on - then you are either not very bright or simply trolling.


NONONONO completely out of context. I was just lolling at the fact that you posted something as a response and it had a counter to your counter in your link. but I did put constructive stuff too, I just had to add that.

Anyway, wtf are vanilla marines? I never figured that out.

Back on topic, why is the tobacco gone? Yes I did just do that. But seriously, where is he (most likely)/she? And this is very far from the original... but at least it is entertaining.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--Os9fF39p...___high_definition_by_animeburner-d3dcbnr.jpg


Troll. This is what this entire thread has become... I take my lead good (and not so good) sirs (?). Hasta luego


----------



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

JAMOB said:


> Anyway, wtf are vanilla marines? I never figured that out.


Vanilla Marines are standard marines dex. Everyone thinks it's ok but It's not particularly interesting, just like vanilla ice cream.


----------



## SageoftheTimes (Sep 30, 2011)

SavageConvoy said:


> I don't think anybody would find a problem with somebody, for example, using BT to test out SW. In a friendly game, I wouldn't care if somebody used army men and lego figures as "Counts as" to determine what army they want to invest in.
> 
> But if you were to use BT to play as SW all the time, then when GK you suddenly decide that this is the army you want now. It shows that you don't really have a commitment to the army or the game. It makes you seem committed to trying to win and to being a douche.


 Sometimes people get bored of their army and test obviously, but no one wants to be that guy here, either. It's mostly a small group of people who really do want to beat others.



> I don't see a problem with hopping around to test out, it's when you intentionally do not stick with an army just for the sake of getting a more powerful army. I play Tau, I love them but they are lacking. I can't pretend every game that they are Eldar or GK or anything but Tau. I don't expect other players to let me do this either. Nobody is so special that they should be able to play 50% of the armies in the line up. I play with Tau, I choose it, I stick with it no matter how bad the codex stands. I would expect anyone I play against to stick with their army.


 But what is 'their army'. It is their money & their time invested, so it's their choice to do what they want to do (we both understand this). Someone acting like a dick & changing armies constantly to beat face isn't part of this, but some people don't like a particular army consistently.

I like Tau and will play it, even though I make sure my army is highly competitive (and, if I were in a Comp environment, I'm sure I'd get hit rather hard by it, compared to said Marine armies that can just add a bit of random and still do alright), I play because I like the fluff. Irony.


Coldshrike said:


> Well said. I have a vanilla marines condex because I like space marines. After playing a few games, I have realized that SW or BA might suit my play style a bit better. Will I try them? Probably. Will I jump between codexes? Probably not. Do I think the makes me a duche? Hell no! And Do I love Rhetorical questions? Hell yes!


 This.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> The most effective way to use Reavers is in an anti-infantry support role, always turbo boosting over enemies while using chain snares. Unfortunately, that is generally a role DE don't really need to dump that many points in at all since the entire army is anti horde. And furthermore, Scourges are cheaper and do it better, if you really want something like that, which should be unnecessary.


 Reavers can JSJ due to being Eldar Bikes, have skilled rider, and can get 18" melta. This makes them tougher to kill, and gives them some reach (15" melta range minimum). And expensive? Totally, but it's a decent way to get the Lances.

I've heard Scourges do well with Haywire Blasters (better then Reavers in cases), but the lack of skilled flier or the ability to JSJ (and no stealth) means they're pretty static units.

Then there's Beastmaster units...


JAMOB said:


> NONONONO completely out of context. I was just lolling at the fact that you posted something as a response and it had a counter to your counter in your link. but I did put constructive stuff too, I just had to add that.
> 
> Anyway, wtf are vanilla marines? I never figured that out.


 Codex Space Marines. Basic ones. Vanilla = basic for some reason (might be a societal clue on just how spoiled someone can get if Vanilla is basic/bland, although it's probably due to shoddy food).


> Back on topic, why is the tobacco gone? Yes I did just do that. But seriously, where is he (most likely)/she? And this is very far from the original... but at least it is entertaining.
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--Os9fF39p...___high_definition_by_animeburner-d3dcbnr.jpg
> 
> 
> Troll. This is what this entire thread has become... I take my lead good (and not so good) sirs (?). Hasta luego


 This thread was about something BESIDES trolling? Sir, I am surprised it took you this long to figure it out. 

Hopefully Tobacco took my advice and is now painting some battle-mates' models, along with making themself a bit of cash.


----------



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't mind, so much, playing against an unpainted army. It's definitely not as enjoyable as going against a fully painted one. However, what really gets me is playing against a proxy army, where I have to remember what squad has what upgrades. I still will play these people if they are nice or new to the game, but I make them label their squads to ameliorate the situation.

I hate that "just another SM player." No, I'm not. I'm a freaking Blood Angels fanatic, and have been since 2nd edition.


----------



## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

SageoftheTimes said:


> Codex Space Marines. Basic ones. Vanilla = basic for some reason (might be a societal clue on just how spoiled someone can get if Vanilla is basic/bland, although it's probably due to shoddy food).


I beleive it has to do with Vanilla being the 'plain' flavour of icecream.

Also, thanks for the rep.


----------



## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

SageoftheTimes said:


> Just wanted to comment here that Reavers are actually decent anti-vehicle units with Heat Lances, due to their speed & the ability to do an assault move (due to being Eldar Jetbikes).
> 
> I meant you haven't been consistent, and I was calling you out out on it. If you really feel I am a sock puppet, feel free to call a mod, and waste their time as the find me using different IPs then he does.
> 
> ...


 
10 character limit.


----------

