# Can Chaos all rounder beat DE Raider Spam?



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I played 5 games total now against DE as CSM. Havent won one. I tabled 2 earliers oppents, SWs and BAs, easy great fine, then DE stroll around. Im done in turn 2.

I pack Lash Princes with Wings, Mutiple 10 man CSM sqauds with Meltas, PF champ, and Icon in Rhinos. A sqaud of Zerkers with PF Champ in Rhino. 5 Oblits in 3 Squads. Its a typical ALL COMER list. Does well against IG, SMs, Daemons, and Tau. Eldar give me some trouble, but Never wins or seems to have a chance at DE. 

Can the typical cut paste CSM list have a great (not good) chance against Raider Spam, 3 Raiders, with True Born/Wyches list?

I know they're a Glass Hammer, and if they go first they're damn near insta win for them. 
1)With like 16-20 Dark Lances opening up my Rhinos in turn 1 pisses me off. If I go first I can pop smoke and save against some but its only a 50% chance. I could keep my rinos out of Line of Sight but the way tournies and people set up our boards you get maybe 1 or 2 buildings or rocks big enough to hide a Rhino. 
2) The the True Born kill the *ONLY* fuking good HQ choice we have with Splinter Cannons like nothing. 3+ save is great but not when they wound a MC on 3+ thanks to the Duke. Too many saves. Mass Fire for the Win.
3) Whyches are the Bane of me, PF champ fuck off 4++. They strike first and thanks to the Open Top Raider have a HUGE charge range. Then add in FNP thanks to Haemonculas or Combat Drugs they're more reliable than my fucking CSMs in CC. 
4) Finnaly we have the Fucking Flicker Fields. I think 5+ is not golden at all, but it helps so much when I get 2 glances and a Pen and he save the Pen almost everytime. 
5) Oblits or Vindis. Both are great choices. However Vinids get mauled by DLs. Then have to survive a turn to tredge up and fire. Oblits are great too.... until the Ravager fire their 9 insta Death DLs into my 4+ cover Save Oblits. 4+ doenst cover it for a 75 pt model.

These 5 things I notice is a trend against DE with my ALL COMERS list. So heres my big question? Is it (A) I have to Tailor my list to have a edge on DE? (B) DE are just great against Nids, Daemons, and MEQs? So I should shrug it off till 5th Ed CSM? (C) Im a shitty general and DE are easy to beat, I should just :suicide: myself? 

As far as Tailor list go what is good CSM wise vs DE? Havoks with MLs viable now over the Oblits? Zerkers and PMs all the way against wyches? Instead of a DP use a fuking Sorceror in a Sqaud with Lash?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Keep your army in reserve? Might work although there is the chance you'll get picked off piecemeal. If not, try chosen outflanking with meltas to take out raiders. Multiple daemon princes could work if you deploy cunningly (yeh I have no idea either).
What you might also wanna try is summoned daemons. I know they're unpredictable, but 4++ save as standard, plus the benefits of a greater daemon may just tip the balance, especially if your berzerker champ is about to get mullered in assault by wych spam.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I was thinking Reserves too but totaly think its a bad move cause unlike MOST races that have a ability to add 1+ to they're reserves I have nothing.... Then the destroy by Piecemeal happens.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

it sounds as though you are a very aggressive player/play style.

be a bit more defensive with your army. just remember that raiders arnt scary at all - the things inside are. perhaps some dakka preds to give you more long range fire power.

if he is taking splinter racks remember that "splinter cannons" dont get the reroll to hit with them. since it only helps rifles and pistols.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Keep your army in reserve? Might work although there is the chance you'll get picked off piecemeal. If not, try chosen outflanking with meltas to take out raiders. Multiple daemon princes could work if you deploy cunningly (yeh I have no idea either).
> What you might also wanna try is summoned daemons. I know they're unpredictable, but 4++ save as standard, plus the benefits of a greater daemon may just tip the balance, especially if your berzerker champ is about to get mullered in assault by wych spam.


Outflanking with meltas is a overkill (Penetrate on anything but a double 1 and destroy on 3s), HBs and Autocannons are far superior.

I'd take some Noise Marines, they're good at killing both Raiders and Kabalites. Dark Eldar are probably the most vulnerable army against Gift of Chaos, a DS Daemon Prince should be able to get fairly close to use it. Almost all of his models are T3 (If he hasn't brought Wracks or Mandrakes you're ok) so you have a pretty good chance of spawnifying them. No armour, no Shadowfields, etc.

Typhus and Abaddon would both be good choices (Typhus especially due to FnP) as they have enough high-strength, high/good WS atacks to hurt the Wyches that are jumping you.

How is he getting into combat with you on the first turn? They get a maximum 26" charge range (With VERY precise measuring), and if your Vindicator has to move forwards to get a shot off (meaning a minimum of 25" between you) then you just have to deploy two inches further back per unit (Unless you're playing Dawn of War, in which case the DP should easily be able to get up close due to Night Fight and fewer models on the table on turn 1). If your opponent guesses wrongly by just 1" then you get a turn of rapid-firing at his Wyches or Trueborn, and if he stays in his Raiders then you get to shoot the Raiders for a turn.

Take some really small squads of CSM with no upgrades (Just the basic 5 dudes) to bubblewrap, and hopefully he can wipe them out in one turn. After this, he's left out in the open.

Wyches are only 3 attacks on the charge, at strength 3. Combat drugs may boost this, I don't know the rules, but that's still just Strength 4. A ten-strong unit of Wyches (Without Combat Drugs, I don't know what they do) with Hekatrix and two Power Weapons (Yes, I know they can't take Power Weapon upgrades but I'm doing this all from the GW website and 3++) will only kill an average of 2.167 (2) CSM a turn, and the return attacks will kill 3 Wyches. So, a ten-man squad of CSM with Champ/Power Fist in combat will beat ten Wyches. An eight-man Berserker squad will kill around 8 when charging. Ten Wyches will kill half a Plague Marine when charging. 

So, with the Mathammering done and dusted, it seems that the most effective combo is deploy as far back as possible, with Plague Marines at the front, Zerkers in the middle to counter-attack and tanks/CSM at the back (With the Daemon Prince behind them all to get a cover save from the tanks). As soon as the Wyches hit the Plague Marine unit, counter-charge with the Zerkers and the DP. Soon as the Wyches are dead, jump the DP behind the armour again, and advance towards the Raiders containing Trueborn and the Ravagers.

I hope that works. As I said, this is all done from the Combat Calculator, the GW Website and 3++, so I will have got some things wrong.

Midnight

EDIT: Ninja'd by Fallen, who's summed it up really. Play defensive, castle up, counter attack.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Outflanking with meltas is a overkill (Penetrate on anything but a double 1 and destroy on 3s), HBs and Autocannons are far superior.
> 
> Makes Havoks viable here.
> 
> ...


Counter Attack is all nice and well, but its completly worthless if he just sits back and uses his supperior DLs to kill my Oblits, Dakka Pred, Defiler I have thats long range in a typical Meta Game CSM list. Then I lose if I try to take himat my range. 

So I ask Again is DE better then CSM typical copy paste meta game list? I have to TAILORE my army for a no brainer, math hammer, win? Its crazy like Daemons vs GKs.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Dakka Preds and mass Vanilla CSM (with Icons of undivided). Rely on mass numbers and firepower quantity.
Terminators with RACs will do well too.

Don't rely on tranports or DPs.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Orochi said:


> Dakka Preds and mass Vanilla CSM (with Icons of undivided). Rely on mass numbers and firepower quantity.
> Terminators with RACs will do well too.
> 
> Don't rely on tranports or DPs.


Its crazy enough to work. Never tried that one before and if I throw in some ML Havoks in I can take out Raiders and their sqauds with equal ease.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

my DE rarely lose to Chaos, but i hated plague marines with a passion when running my wytch squad, of coarse plagues survive but their t bonus is negated from the wonderful poison weaponry.

I dont know what you can do TO win, but i know what you can avoid.

Oblits: they DIE super quick, I dont think i have ever seen oblits live past turn 2 against my DE

high T like PMs are good at dealing with Wytches, but if they have 2 pain tokens, your screwed, as that would give them FNP and Furious charge.

As to suggestions, obviously dont let us catch your units alone where we can hide from parts of your army while unleashing hell on said part thats alone. Take lots of lower str fire power, as our Vehicles are paper planes.

but for the record I love Flicker Fields, Venoms, and Splinter Cannons >D


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Quoty stuff
> 
> Counter Attack is all nice and well, but its completly worthless if he just sits back and uses his supperior DLs to kill my Oblits, Dakka Pred, Defiler I have thats long range in a typical Meta Game CSM list. Then I lose if I try to take himat my range.


5-man bubble wrapping isn't tailoring, it works against any list, giving cover saves when you fight a shooty army and defending you from assault units in a close-combat army.

You say he sits back and just picks off stuff with DLs? Take MSU. He can't shoot them all at once, so he has to split his fire. Killing some dudes from each squad is much less effective than killing an entire squad.

Killing your Oblits, Dakka Pred, and Defiler in one turn? Reserve them. They will come on in your turn and get AT LEAST one round of shooting before they die. That's 3 Ravager kills from the Obliterators (Multi-Meltas, as you DS within 12"), which is his anti-tank and nine of his Dark Lances gone. Alternatively, you could attack Sliscus' unit with Heavy Flamers/Multi-Meltas/both depending on wether they're mounted or not. (Knock out transport with one squad, Lash, then three heavy flamers with the other.

Unsupported, Raider-mounted Wyches are quite bad, they need something else to whittle down a squad before they attack or they will just get stomped.

9 Trueborn? That's just nine bolter shots away from oblivion. Considering a bolter shot has a pretty good chance of killing a Trueborn (Hits on 3s, kills on 3s), you can sit back at 24" with one squad and still have a good chance of crippling the Trueborn squad. Hopefully the one dude and Sliscus will run. Escort them off the board with the DP. Alternatively, you could use Lash of Submission to bring them into Rapid-Firing range. Not good for the Trueborn. 

The duke has only two wounds, so bringing him down shouldn't be too difficult. Or make him run away, your choice. If you can, then Lash the unit he's with into a neat little bunch and then fire your 5 Plasma Cannons into him. 3 hits, one overheat, one just misses, other 3 hit him and about 5 Trueborn. 5 Trueborn will just die, and he has to take 3 2+ saves or be insta-killed. The duke's strength is what he does for the army, but he has a fairly weak-ish statline. Use that to your advantage.

I think that Wyches are the single best unit to use Nurgle's Rot against. 5 of them will have to take their 6+ saves, probably killing four of them. If they have FnP due to an attached Haemonculus you can probably ignore the squad as there's imply not enough models in it.

You say that the Wyches have a massive charge range. Well, so do your Princes so it's fairly even. Average of 7 inch Lash movement, 12" move and then 6" assault. 23" charge, possibly 28". That's more than they can go.

Midnight


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

ML havoks? Absolutely not. AC havoks? getting warmer.

You want volume of fire. Not str of fire. 

Reason being is you want ot make sure you don't 'half do' jobs. DE get away with a transport being blown down. They expect it. 8 Auto cannon hits later, the squad just isn't going to be able to function.

That's why I reccommend Dakk preds. That way, you KNOW his DLs will be going for them. So monopolise on choosing his targets for him.

DE work by creating holes in your army line. Flood your side of the Field with CSM, he can't create any holes.

At say, 1500 points. DE will not be pleased to see 50-60 CSM of whatever function.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yeh, Orochi has a point. Look to your army's strengths, not to your opponents, then see what you can work with. Then again, don't be over-reliant on one tactic, but try a mix of some that you know could be effective. It makes your actions harder to counter, as it's more unpredictable as to what you're going to do next.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Orochi said:


> ML havoks? Absolutely not. AC havoks? getting warmer.
> 
> You want volume of fire. Not str of fire.
> 
> ...


sorry but i LOVE seeing 60 CSM on the field. DE eat infantry for breakfast


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

That's where you're opponents clearly not a good player.

With proper use of cover, a wall of 3+ just isn't a nice sight. Yes, DE have 4+ splinter weaponry. This is why I haven't suggest plague marines, as their best asset is made redundant.
The wall of 3+ just doesn't give DE/Eldar players any obvious targets. Applying tanks into the wall means that yes, you do place target signs on them, but you can see where you're opponent will go. The DE power is movement, and if you can control it, you can place weapons to deal with it.

As for 'Eating Infatry for breakfast', yes, against 5+. DE infact have a limited range of weapons that'll pierce MEQ armour. Bar the obvious lance weaponry.

Reavers and wyches are the CC element of DE anti-infantry, but again, T4 and 3+ prooves difficult to over come.
Anti-MEQ units like Incubi and Archons are priced so and will be few in number. 

Basically, your best friend is your boltgun. It can harm every unit your opponent has.

And are you worried about Chronos/Talos? Then take a Blissgiver Termi lord. He fits in well due ot being able to DS down. Icons mean no scatter. Perfect counter.

It's just a matter of preparing yourself and making use of Cover for your protection.


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## arachnidsGrip (May 5, 2011)

Try maybe using flamer squads or plasma squads instead of melta? If you take flamer squads, you can use the extra 10 points to put combi-plas/melta on your rhinos or invest it into something else. When I used chaos, I always took outflanking chosen squads with either 3 flamers and 2 meltas, 5 flamers, or 5 meltas. 

One thing I find very useful against T3 armies with low saves, like Tau or DE, is to pop the transports close to one another, lash the units inside towards a central unit, and then using a squad of chosen coming up from the side to flame the squad at the end. It just HAPPENS to go through two other squads and rapid firing bolters should take out the last of them. 

On the note about using Nurgle's rot in CC, the opponent may argue that it would confer the wyches 4+ dodge save, as there are almost no cases in which this normally happens.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Orochi said:


> That's where you're opponents clearly not a good player.
> 
> With proper use of cover, a wall of 3+ just isn't a nice sight. Yes, DE have 4+ splinter weaponry. This is why I haven't suggest plague marines, as their best asset is made redundant.
> The wall of 3+ just doesn't give DE/Eldar players any obvious targets. Applying tanks into the wall means that yes, you do place target signs on them, but you can see where you're opponent will go. The DE power is movement, and if you can control it, you can place weapons to deal with it.
> ...


thats sad, you believe that orochi? that rapid fire weapons are the best friend? a good list at 1500 has atleast 4 venoms, those 4 venoms can produce 48 3 4 shots a turn on their own, before their crews shoot, from a 36 inch range. I will blow away a good portion of that 3+ wall with ease and if youve spent all your points on said 3+ wall, oops!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

KA, I really cannot be bothered with you. Not every DE player in existance runs the Internet venom list like you. You post in the 'tactics' section bragging about a list you haven't even devised yourself. Then call me 'sad'?

I'm sorry to the OP. I try and be positive. Others, well. I'm sorry


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

I hardly run the 'internet' Venom list, I run my own lists, and i find that venoms are a very nasty piece of work for facing against Infantry.

your the one sitting here giving out information thats next to useless, infantry against a decent DE player means nothing, even the termie armies fail when they have a million shots put into them.

Point is: the DE are MADE to be infantry killers, they can take down hoarde armies with a mass of fire, and yet you are giving him advice to body wall. DE all comers lists vary, but more people favor the venom lists. I have pointed out that your body wall idea is flawed, as it gets eaten very easily to the general list designs, only a 'fun' list of DE would have any serious problem with a body wall, as either a. the mass of units are being held up by wytches who, outside of PMs do not have many issues dealing with Marines. or b. the mass of units are being shot up before they get into range by venoms. Either way, YOUR LOGIC is flawed. And your saying I am sad because im 'running' supposidly, a list i have gotten off the internet and i obvously have never played a single game to test any units on my own and happen to come to a conclusion similar to those players who made the lists that are so 'popular'. 

As usual, Orochi, you have exceeded all expectations and proven yourself to be very uninformed making such claims, where as I am giving advice as per the general consensus, as warlock has not given any specifics on the lists he is facing.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

my slaanesh/khorne list at 2k ruins DE armies...most of the time.

but for tactics against DE - just shoot them, if they have flicker fields then in your head make your guns shorter, if you have to have suicidal DPs/raptors/chosen/raptors to get them out of their raiders and they die glory-less deaths then thats fine. they died for the greater good...of chaos. >.>


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well thanks for all the advice. I see now that DE are just good against CSM usaull Meta Game List. CSMs are not a shooty army at all. The Dex is all about getting in CC and ripping you apart and those Damn DE new dex makes that harder when they all have fukin FNP, 4+/3+ to wound, and more Str 8 Ap2 36" Lances weapons than any other army. What a pain in the Dick! But hey those are the rocks and Ill deal with it.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

DE = new codex, shit happens. However don't let KhainiteAssassin discourage you. I personally have not lost to a DE list yet, with the exception of an ass hole that fields DE and eldar together in apocalypse.

You probably will have to list tailor, but that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. Mind you I run on average enough AC, and plasma guns to kill a hiorophant in two turns so DE were never a big deal for me, but yah classic CSM players that stayed away from shooting lists in favor of cult armies were smacked down hard by DE.

I would give advice, but really it doesn't go beyond hiding in cover and downing all his best crap when it comes on. After all if you deploy at the back of your board he won't have range turn one, but he will have to move up if he wants to get range with you meaning he will only get one round of shooting before you can lay into him with 8-12 autocannons.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Well thanks for all the advice. I see now that DE are just good against CSM usaull Meta Game List.


That's because the "classic" Chaos Space Marine list you see on the forums is terrible.



> CSMs are not a shooty army at all. The Dex is all about getting in CC and ripping you apart


Okay, whoa. Slow down.

The Chaos Space Marine Codex has plenty of options to be shooty. It's just that many players tend toward the choppier and close-ranged firepower elements because of their perceived superiority.

Some units that Chaos has access to that you rarely see that can give Dark Eldar (and any other) army trouble are:

- Predators (autocannon and lascannon sponsons are best for TAC ((take all comers))
- Havocs (two or four autocannons depending on squad size is very good)
- Terminators (combi- weapon totting Terminators are excellent, so is the reaper autocannon)
- Noise Marines (this one is a bit iffy and really only works if taken in an incredibly specific way. I really can't go into detail about this here at the moment)
- Chaos Sorcerers (yes, really. Not Daemon Princes).

You have lots of shooting options, it's just that you've probably been led away from them by having people hammer into your skull that the only way to play Chaos Space Marines is Lash with 9 Obliterators.


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## TraceofToxin (Jan 26, 2010)

Suicide Termies with combi-melta/plas, suicide raptors with melta/flamers, dakka dreads/havocs, plague marines. 

All great choices.

Why?

Suicide Termies/Raptors DS next to vehicles and eradicate them, removing his ability to scoot away. S8 AP1 doesn't need 2d6 to blow a raider to crap.

Plague Marines have a 3+/4+ against poison, if he's shooting lances at plague marines your vehicles/termies are dead and you're fucked anyways.

S7 mass fire is the bane of DE. Autocannons wreck shop on our boats hard.

General notes;

If he's running the darklight storm style list... you're going to have a hard fight on your hands without tailoring because of CSM inability to field overwhelming long range firepower for cheap. CSM aren't bad at shooting, but DE are better, and will win that fight the majority of the time.

Mass bodies is a terrible idea. Terrible. Venomspam has a 36" range. What are you going to threaten him with, 6 squads of CSM with 1 autocannon each? That's not going to work out that well for you. Oblits aren't too bad, but you spend a lot of points for 3 possible dead vehicles when a dakka pred will cost about 50% with not much less ability to drop paper planes. If he's doing 10 man squads in raiders, he'll have less planes, get plague marines to advance with flamers and torch the little buggers that fall out. 

Sadly the CSM doesn't have a lot to deal with wyches in cc. Plague Marines can stall for a while, berserkers aren't too bad, mainly you'll just want to shoot the shit out of them. Prioritize them over warriors. Flamers make them do the burny dance.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

In my defense, as TraceOfToxin knows, I run a Darklight storm list. As opposed to a Venomspam.

We must also take into account that Venomspam hasn't been too popular with 'normal' players due to the need to convert it.

However, come june with the apparent Venom set, this'll change


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

ive just been proxying my Venoms till the new kit comes out


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I have been proxying everything until everything comes out... No sense splashing the cash until you have the battleforce!


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

My first 40K army was CSM - I run a slaaneshi warband that is about as shooty as I can make it. My second 40K army was DE. There is no way my CSM army could beat my DE army. Just not possible. With the ability to focus fire of 18+ DL weapons from 36" away onto a single squad it's just silly what you can accomplish.

It may seem counter intuitive but I believe that meching up in cheap rhinos is probably the best way to play. Even if you're playing in an area where there isn't much cover to be had you can do the good old leapfrogging rhinos to keep that cover going. By that of course I mean to run one rhino out front, pop smoke & tuck the other rhinos in behind it so that your line of advance generates their own coversaves. Next turn the first rhino falls back & the second one moves forward & pops smoke. You ARE going to take damage doing this but it should help you close that distance - just don't try to claim the center of the table unless you have to. Stick to one board edge that way you're able to keep his forces on one or two sides allowing you the ability to pile your forces into cover between wrecked vehicles & the board edge.

The Venom spam becomes less usefull as the guys inside will need to get within 18" to use their blasters & the venoms themselves are useless until they do that. Of course if maxed in DL trueborn & ravagers they'll still have 15+ dark lances so a bit of luck is still going to be required... (15 lances: 10 hits: 5 pens: 3 after cover: 1 wreck / explosion per turn...).

As a DE player I would honestly NOT recommend using a *single *predator. A single lance weapon can effectively neutralize your pred each & every turn as 2/3 results on the glance OR pen chart will keep it from shooting.

Don't get caught isolated, spread out your long range shooting between your squads - I know I'd never really consider throwing a heavy weapon in my CSM squads *NORMALLY*, but remember, they're cheaper there than in the havocs and well, if you have one squad with 4 HW's OR 4 squads with 1 each it's a no brainer as to what I'm shooting first - I need to put MORE wounds to remove those heavy weapons when spread between multiple squads AND since you're not SW you can't split fire so those extra HW shots could be wasted in a havoc team...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> That's because the "classic" Chaos Space Marine list you see on the forums is terrible.


I think its single minded.... but CSM have a good HQ that over shadows the rest, AWSOME Troops, some useful Elites, No Fast Attack, and decent HS but thats overshadowed by the damn Oblits again because there so damn useful in a All Comers list.



Katie Drake said:


> The Chaos Space Marine Codex has plenty of options to be shooty. It's just that many players tend toward the choppier and close-ranged firepower elements because of their perceived superiority.



Your Preaching to the choire. I think they have some decent Shooty units... but IG, Tau, DE, and anything SM with Razor Spam/Rifle Dreads out gun any CSM force. Its the Choppy choppy that does better per point than any Shooty orients CSMs. Even the basic CSM has a re rollable Morale LD 10 with Icon and Champ and 2 attacks Basic, 3 on the charge.



Katie Drake said:


> - Predators (autocannon and lascannon sponsons are best for TAC ((take all comers))


Dakka Autocannon Dreads with HBs is alright, but against AV 12 it satrts to look lack luster. I think thats why people perfer Oblits, Vindis, and Defiler. Those huge Blast Templates of the latter 2 make short work of Vehicles and Hordes.



Katie Drake said:


> - Havocs (two or four autocannons depending on squad size is very good)


Again nice for tailoring my next list against DE, still Oblits are better all around.



Katie Drake said:


> - Terminators (combi- weapon totting Terminators are excellent, so is the reaper autocannon)


Heavy Flamer is great for its points, Reaper..... I guess if your walking them?



Katie Drake said:


> - Noise Marines (this one is a bit iffy and really only works if taken in an incredibly specific way. I really can't go into detail about this here at the moment)


Ahhhh this is my second favorite Army :biggrin:. Emperor Children and I use Noise Marines often. Sad to say though the NMs are better at CC and MEDIUM range combat. Doom Siren PW champs is the same price as a Blast Master and thats ridiculas. The fact they have Int 5, 3 attacks on the charge, combine with Fearless PA, Assault profile double tap bolters (Sonic Blasters), and the Doom Siren PW Champ just scream Assault! Assualt! and they do better than Beserkers in my oppionin. You blast them with the Doom Siren and Sonic Blasters to whiddle whatever down and Charge. At Int 5 your hitting with 3 attacks with however many and a additional 4 attacks with the PW champ. Its so crazy and SM Vanguard cry. :clapping:



Katie Drake said:


> - Chaos Sorcerers (yes, really. Not Daemon Princes).


I totally agree. I run a Single Lash Sorcero all the time with my Noise Marines or Beserkers in a Rhino. Cruise Around, Lash a unit from the saftey of your Rhino, disembark and charge with the said unit, then repeat. The Rhino and Sqaud keeps your Sorc safe from Range threats, in CC just dont walk into anything that will Instadeath the Sorc. Int 6 Force Weapon with 4 Attacks helps to. 



Katie Drake said:


> You have lots of shooting options, it's just that you've probably been led away from them by having people hammer into your skull that the only way to play Chaos Space Marines is Lash with 9 Obliterators.


This is true but after playing all those units against most races they arnt as good as Oblits, Lash Vindi Combo, or Dakka Pred. I hate the huge ass target Defiler. 



TraceofToxin said:


> Suicide Termies/Raptors DS next to vehicles and eradicate them, removing his ability to scoot away. S8 AP1 doesn't need 2d6 to blow a raider to crap.
> 
> Plague Marines have a 3+/4+ against poison, if he's shooting lances at plague marines your vehicles/termies are dead and you're fucked anyways.
> 
> S7 mass fire is the bane of DE. Autocannons wreck shop on our boats hard.


The Raptors and Termicide is a horrible waste of points, they will likely kill one target and get killed in turn, those Raiders/Ravagers arnt that expensive. 
PMs Ive tried once and worked very well at holding Wyches at bay.... for a time. In the Shooting phase if I win they get shot to shit or if the Raider blows upo their Rhino they get shot to shit. 
Autocannons, cant complain there.



TraceofToxin said:


> If he's running the darklight storm style list... you're going to have a hard fight on your hands without tailoring because of CSM inability to field overwhelming long range firepower for cheap. CSM aren't bad at shooting, but DE are better, and will win that fight the majority of the time.


Thats why im feverishly building my IG just so I can beat a DE player at their own Game. 



TraceofToxin said:


> Mass bodies is a terrible idea. Terrible. Venomspam has a 36" range. What are you going to threaten him with, 6 squads of CSM with 1 autocannon each? That's not going to work out that well for you. Oblits aren't too bad, but you spend a lot of points for 3 possible dead vehicles when a dakka pred will cost about 50% with not much less ability to drop paper planes. If he's doing 10 man squads in raiders, he'll have less planes, get plague marines to advance with flamers and torch the little buggers that fall out.


YUP....



TraceofToxin said:


> Sadly the CSM doesn't have a lot to deal with wyches in cc. Plague Marines can stall for a while, berserkers aren't too bad, mainly you'll just want to shoot the shit out of them. Prioritize them over warriors. Flamers make them do the burny dance.


I used Plasma and Flamers over the Melts and did alot better the last game. Zerkers and PMs are the only ones that survive the Wyches and even eek out a win. Im thinking the combo is the way to go.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Again nice for tailoring my next list against DE, still Oblits are better all around.


Nope. I'd never suggest tailoring a list to beat one specific army. I do suggest making some alterations so that you don't automatically lose to Dark Eldar whenever you play them, though. The difference is that by adding, say, autocannon havocs to your army to help you against DE you don't then replace them with Obliterators the next time you fight Guard. In this way it's list tweaking rather than list tailoring.



> Heavy Flamer is great for its points, Reaper..... I guess if your walking them?


Yes, walking them. Chaos Terminators are very economical for what they do, the reaper is also a lot better than most give it credit for.



> Ahhhh this is my second favorite Army :biggrin:. Emperor Children and I use Noise Marines often. Sad to say though the NMs are better at CC and MEDIUM range combat. Doom Siren PW champs is the same price as a Blast Master and thats ridiculas. The fact they have Int 5, 3 attacks on the charge, combine with Fearless PA, Assault profile double tap bolters (Sonic Blasters), and the Doom Siren PW Champ just scream Assault! Assualt! and they do better than Beserkers in my oppionin. You blast them with the Doom Siren and Sonic Blasters to whiddle whatever down and Charge. At Int 5 your hitting with 3 attacks with however many and a additional 4 attacks with the PW champ. Its so crazy and SM Vanguard cry. :clapping:


Actually, Noise Marines should play more like Grey Knights - utilize their excellent medium ranged firepower and stay mobile, either backing away from opponents that you cannot defeat in assault or moving forward against the ones that you can while shooting all the while. No matter what though, Noise Marines shoot better than they fight except against very specific foes so it usually pays to not spend too many points on choppy upgrades.



> I totally agree. I run a Single Lash Sorcero all the time with my Noise Marines or Beserkers in a Rhino. Cruise Around, Lash a unit from the saftey of your Rhino, disembark and charge with the said unit, then repeat. The Rhino and Sqaud keeps your Sorc safe from Range threats, in CC just dont walk into anything that will Instadeath the Sorc. Int 6 Force Weapon with 4 Attacks helps to.


You can't Lash and then assault from a transport in the same turn (though I could be reading what you're saying wrong). Otherwise yes, that's one way of utilizing a Sorcerer.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Nope. I'd never suggest tailoring a list to beat one specific army. I do suggest making some alterations so that you don't automatically lose to Dark Eldar whenever you play them, though. The difference is that by adding, say, autocannon havocs to your army to help you against DE you don't then replace them with Obliterators the next time you fight Guard. In this way it's list tweaking rather than list tailoring.


Ahhh I see.



Katie Drake said:


> Yes, walking them. Chaos Terminators are very economical for what they do, the reaper is also a lot better than most give it credit for.


I never Walk them becuase of the fear of AP2 weponry and the time it will take to walk them to where you want them.



Katie Drake said:


> Actually, Noise Marines should play more like Grey Knights - utilize their excellent medium ranged firepower and stay mobile, either backing away from opponents that you cannot defeat in assault or moving forward against the ones that you can while shooting all the while. No matter what though, Noise Marines shoot better than they fight except against very specific foes so it usually pays to not spend too many points on choppy upgrades.


Prefrence I guess.:laugh:



Katie Drake said:


> You can't Lash and then assault from a transport in the same turn (though I could be reading what you're saying wrong). Otherwise yes, that's one way of utilizing a Sorcerer.


No I can ethier drop my Zerkers out, Walk them, and Lash from the Rhino so the Zerkers can charge. Or exit the Sorc with the Zerkers and do the same thing.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

@Warlock in training
The main reason you cant beat Dark Eldar players in your area is because of several factors the main ones being :


Your chaos army sucks. It lacks internal synergy 
as the units in it does not lend mutual support to one another.
Your list as described it is basicly a chaos marine version 
of a Rhino rush list and the fact that you dont lose more often
tells more of your own skills compared to your opponents 
than it does your army list.


Considering that the whole premise of lash
is to open transports then kill the passengers
preferably with plenty of ranged weapons, 
optionally with heavy hitting assault units, 
you have opted to bring neither, 
thus you will lose to anyone
who understands the limits of your army.


The list of chaos units that could bring some middle/long range weapons to a chaos list (not just yours but in general as well) is pretty staggering:

[HQ]DP/CS with BoC
[Elite]Chosen CSM
[Elite]Chaos terminators
[Elite]Chaos dreadnought
[Troop]CSM
[Troop]Noise Marines
[Troop]Thousand Sons
[TR]C:Rhino w Havoc Launcher
[Heavy]Havocs
[Heavy]Obliterators
[Heavy]Preadtors
[Heavy]Vinicators
[Heavy]Defiler
[Heavy/TR]Land Raider

And among all these option you have opted to bring 5 Obliterators leaving your list one dimensional as they should be dead in turn one or two
at the latest against any decent list which at that point your only option and that is 
to close your eyes and pray that you can defeat your opponent with assaults from rhinos.

Overall you should not expect to win against Dark Eldar players anytime soon, 
as your replies to others suggest you dont want to change your play style to match a dual lash list.
As long as you insist on building your army as a Rhino rush list you will lose to any decent shooting armies, 
or players that knows how to counter that strategy.
In general you need to rework your army list to suit your play style -
If you want to play double lash you need to bring the firepower to utilize it proberly, otherwise you are just wasting points.
But if you want to destroy your opponents with assaults you will need to change your army to suit that style of tactics.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Jernmajoren said:


> @Warlock in training
> The main reason you cant beat Dark Eldar players in your area is because of several factors the main ones being :
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh: Wow you haver NO clue about Chaos do ya. So far all your creditbility went OUT the window when you suggest Dreds.

The only 2 ways to run a DP is MoN, Wings, WT or MoS, Wings, Lash.
Dreads arnt competitive... AT ALL.
TS are the lest all rounder Troop Choice to Use. Its Beserkers and PMs for straight out competitive. NMs and CSMs if your good and have synergy. TS are GREAT against PA... suck in CC, high point cost, and suck when the Sorc dies. Seriously?
Havoks are pushed aside because all the other choices can do more for their point cost. Look at ANY CSM tatica by CSM players. Now you can use them... but sparingly.
Also Havok Launcher is a waste. 

Yous say I need more Firepower for Double Lash? Have you seen what can be fielded at 1500 points? Not a whole lot. 3 Troops, 2 DPs, and 5 Oblits/ 2 DP Vindis. Thats it and the Troops need Meltas cause 5th edion is MECH! 


Seriously you were no help unlike Katie, Luke and the rest. Come back when you learn how the Chaos Dex works and then call my list sucky. Im posting about a All rounder beating DE. You cant have a high chance of winning with a All Rounder against DE Raider Spams/Whych Spam. If you go out of the norm as everyone applied you can win. But the standard Tournie Winning List suffer. 

Also Dual Lash with Troop Choice and Oblits dont suck. Ask any compentent Chaos Player.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

dual lash with troops and oblits does suck... against a competent DE player


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

the most ironic part of DE is that the force they are suppost to enjoy picking on the most from a fluff standpoint (IG) is the absolute best army for trouncing them. No other army can bring as much decentralized long range firepower to bear. Of course min-maxed SM builds featuring razorspam also do very well but again this is by maximizing the amount of shots they can put out past the 36" mark. Chaos doesn't have a very viable means of putting DE vehicles down as lances will stun / explode their defilers / dreads / predators & landraiders (for mech long range fire) and will one-shot obliterators. Both noise marines & thousand sons are only really effective up to 30" which means you'll need to either be lucky & trap your opponent against a board edge (good luck with that...) or run 12" forward in a rhino, disembark & fire for your 36+" threat range - but in doing so you are leaving yourself exposed.

I would strongly recommend you try the rhino sniffing strategy I mentioned a page ago as it is probably your best bet with your current build.

Obviously MoN & MoT aren't helping on your daemon princes against DE (arguably MoT is better as it offers a modicum more protection against dark lances than nurgle does...) and if you can't catch & blow up their transports then you can't lash the bits inside. The DP isn't even that effective at taking out wyches as his ability to ignore armor is basically wasted... you're lucky to kill 2 per turn while the wyches hammer back putting a wound or two in exchange (again, MoT is probably your best bet as it offers protection against the agonizer). Remember the only reason a DP is a "better" choice than the sorceror is that it increases the target saturation you're able to bring. DE with 18 lance weapons & a boat load of poison that will kill your prince dead don't really care about that. They know that a lash / WT prince is only effective once their raiders explode & will ignore it until they have no choice to. 

This means your obliterators will die first. One ravager can reasonably kill one obliterator a turn, every turn until you bring it down - in fact it has a better chance of flat out killing an oblit with any single shot than the oblit does killing it in return (assuming flickerfield on the ravager & the oblit is in cover there is a 27.8% chance a SINGLE lance will kill an oblit, whereas there is only a 16% chance a SINGLE lascannon at 36" will kill the ravager) - focusing fire with 18 lance weapons can reasonably kill all five obliterators you're fielding in one turn & that will still leave me with a turn or two before your rhinos full of guys get close enough to harm me.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> dual lash with troops and oblits does suck... against a competent DE player


True, but please try to be a bit more civil when laughing at the fact that our standard power build is useless against the average DE build please, it tends to offend those that liked that army.

As I said I rarely used oblits my self, and was actually one of the only people to use 4 autocannons havoks before DE skulkt back from obscurity....what a lot of people use rhino's in my area (Also its the coolest looking heavy weapon any SM can have). Although my 2-3 units of plasma chosen has gotten me laughed at by some conservative minded CSM players, but you use what you know.....what was I talking about oh yah stop pissing vinegar into a open wound. After all do you really want people to do the same if all of the sudden Tau end up getting heavy 3 str 7 range 36 guns for some arbitrary reason (DE are too good ....lets get matt ward working on that tau codex.)


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> dual lash with troops and oblits does suck... against a competent DE player





LukeValantine said:


> True, but please try to be a bit more civil when laughing at the fact that our standard power build is useless against the average DE build please, it tends to offend those that liked that army.
> 
> As I said I rarely used oblits my self, and was actually one of the only people to use 4 autocannons havoks before DE skulkt back from obscurity....what a lot of people use rhino's in my area (Also its the coolest looking heavy weapon any SM can have). Although my 2-3 units of plasma chosen has gotten me laughed at by some conservative minded CSM players, but you use what you know.....what was I talking about oh yah stop pissing vinegar into a open wound. After all do you really want people to do the same if all of the sudden Tau end up getting heavy 3 str 7 range 36 guns for some arbitrary reason (DE are too good ....lets get matt ward working on that tau codex.)


I like to think that DE are Scissors to our Paper. Tonight I just finish 1250 of Catachans with Battle Cannon, 8 ACs, Maticore Missils, 3 MLs, 7 Multi Lasers, 10 HBs, 4 PGs, and a shit ton of Orders to play the Rock . 

Im good... Im good.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

@Warlockintraining
Absolutely, dreads are not a very good competative choice because of their randomness, TS can be used though the effectiveness of the BoC depends alot on how much psychic protection people brings in the local meta.

About your list, the main reason it sucks it that it like a lot of common chaos lists lack target saturation and internal synergy between units.
When your obliterators die during a match, you have no way of de-meching an opponent outside 12" and any good opponent will spot that and remove your only long range threat in the first couple of turns thus making you unable to demech your opponent except at short ranges where he can do the same to you with his own melta weapons.

To make the list better allround you need to include heavy weapons among other choices than your heavy.
And the only practical way to do that is to change the composition of your troops.
As examples for alternative troop choices could be: (Cost excluding Rhino)

10 CSM with AC & MG - 170 
5 Noisemarines w Blastmaster - 140

As you will proberly notice there are no PFs in either of my suggestions, and the reason for this is that a 40pts PF is simlpy too overcosted at 1500 pts to be worth it compared to what you lose out on - 2 PFs for troops = 1 Obliterator.

By losing some of the excess PFs and generally trimming your list to maximize point effectiveess you could improve greatly on your lists overall perfomance.

Overall a chaos army have the capability to bring a good amount of firepower to the table, and as a shooting army they are really good.
Because of general codex evolution chaos list are generally not as strong as a assault army as they used to be, and from my experience they perform better going for strong shooting units than going for strong assault units as other armies have become better in assaults while chaos stayed the same.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

As true in most cases their is a incredible cost in making any unit a all comers affair, so in other words take a page from DE/Eldar, and make your stuff optimized for its roll. Hence why the only people I EVER use a PF with are terminators or berzerkers (Same cost yet twice as effective). My one friend doesn't seem to understand how crappy a deal 2 PF attacks are for 40pts, and as such he loses a potential 200pts in models trying to make his tacticals all comers. Kinda the reason I shit kick em so often.

This idea also applies to mixing HE weapons into CSM squads, I mean sure you can do it, but it only makes sense if you are damn desperate for em. After all if you really need a extra AC or other HE just take 5 man chosen with the gun at least that way you can get side armor for a turn one tank kill guaranteed. Rant over.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

100 points to throw a single AC in & hope to pop a chimera turn one before getting turned to paste? Bad show - you've traded an elite slot and 100 points for a 22% chance to destroy a 55pt transport. even if you succeed the guard player will have 4 more of them. You're now 18" away so any melta you put in that squad for REAL tank popping is useless since you can't walk forward to get it in range else your AC can't fire so that leaves you with what? the option to take plasma? well now you're not a tank busting squad you're purpose is to hunt elites - the AC has no purpose here.

Without the ability to combat squad heavy weapons in CSM are restricted to the HS slots OR sub-par builds specifically constructed around the use of HW - I have a friend who made it to semi-finals last year using an iron warriors themed gunline CSM list (but it is a sub-par list on the average competitive scene, he's just a guy that ONLY rolls 5's & 6's ever.). Any other army that pays 150 points to put a HW into a squad has a method of keeping said squad useful - SM can combat squad, guard get (30) bodies that function as (3) individual squads & come with (3) heavy weapons, even Templar get laz-plas razorback squads,


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