# Gene-Seed Flaws or Culture?



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

With a quick addendum I'd like to point out I'm not asking about flaws that occur in the usual physical manner, i.e Space Wolves acute senses and lengthening canines or the Blood Angels lust for blood etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Inspired some what by Giant Fossil Penguin's Traitor's Flaws thread I thought I'd like to start a discussion on, possibly, a more complex issue- what are the differences between the Legions/Chapters Astartes' mental faculty and/or personality and are these differences due to the presence of their Primarch's gene seed OR because of the culture and traditions of the Legion/Chapter they originate from? (Essentially a sci-f debate of 'Nature or Nuture').

Obviously the idea becomes greatly more complex when you factor in Legions like the Ultramarines who share geneseed with the majority of the loyalist Space Marines in 40k- what are the characteristics that tie all these chapters together and so can be attributed to the shared genetic code?

On the flip side those legions/chapters that have very few or no recognised descendants are difficult to categorise because all their 'flaws' and 'virtues' could be due to either reason...

So I'd like your aid in determining the characteristic of the original 18 Legions and deciding which characteristic is due to 'nature or nuture'.


----------



## calon (Jul 12, 2010)

Only fimilar with the background on a few of the original ones, but, I'd say that...
*Blood Angels* - are primarily a nature aspect. Their Black Rage is an insanity caused by a relocation of memories that are not their own. A direct effect of the chapter's gene-seed. This would also work for the Red Thrust, where they experience visions of hatred.

*Space Wolves* - their physical differences might be caused by the environmental and cultural conditions of Fenris. 

*Imperial Fists* - the missing implants (I recall one or two missing, will have to look it up) would be more along the nature side of the coin. Their flaw could be reversed if they were fitted with the omitted enhancements. 

*Salamanders *- I only knew very little about their flaws, had to research some of it here. But, it seems between a flaw in their enhancements, and the levels of radiation on Nocturne both contribute to their flaws. So, it would be both.


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

calon said:


> *Space Wolves* - their physical differences might be caused by the environmental and cultural conditions of Fenris.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> No they got their physical differences from drinking from the helix canus


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

No, the canis helix is part of the Space Wolf geneseed, its what makes their senses more acute and how they grow those fangs.

All Space Wolves drink from the cup of the wulfin, and if they survive that ordeal, and other things, then they become members of the chapter as Blood Claws.

I actually think that in regards to the Space Wolves, it has a lot to do with the culture of the inhabitants of Fenris itself. The population of Fenris is broken into various tribes, most, if not all, of which are constantly fighting each other. The society of the tribes is generally one of, you fight and bring home the food or what-have-you and the glory and honour is yours. You do nothing, then you get and deserve fuck all. From these tribes, the Space Wolves select the best fighters as their candidates, amongst those who can be taken, and these candidates take with them the culture and lifestyle they were brought up with. So as a Space Wolf, you have warriors who respect those willing to get the job done, who are straightforward and not unwilling to get their hands dirty.

This is, in part, the straightforward and simple mindedness often displayed by the Space Wolves.


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

i thought that he was talking about the fangs not their overall size


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Well Baron even said to ignore the simple and obvious stuff like that, he mentioned the fangs as a specific example of what this is not about. For you to come into this and ignore that while commenting on what someone is saying, when they are not ignoring that, it doesn't really help.

Plus you said they drink from the Canis Helix, which they don't because thats part of the geneseed of the Space Wolves. Its not some cup/goblet/chalice for them to drink out of like the Cup of the Wulfin is.


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

did I wrong you in any way? That was supposed to be my last comment on the subject as a correction in my error...also don't you think overall size is a pretty obvious different? Leman Russ was said to be one of the biggest primarchs out of the 20...So please when I'm correcting myself don't take my head off. If you would like a random wtf about the Space Wolves what about they have the most body hair then any other legion


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Thats not taking your head off, he can do worse... trust me.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Leman Russ being a big primarch does not mean the Space Wolves will be bigger than other marines. They have a better chance of it, because the geneseed does have marines take on some likeness to that given primarch.

As for before, you brought up the Canis Helix and the fangs, but this topic is not about that so there is no point bringing them up. Baron said that this topic was not about the likes of that so you either had to miss that bit (hard because its the first statement) or you chose to ignore it.


There was also correcting your error of drinking from the Canis Helix, that goes as far as the wrong notable thing being said in that statement and nothing more.


And taking your head off? Seriously, get on my bad side (by no means an easy feat believe me) and then piss me off. Then I'll flay you alive or something. Or piss off someone like Jez, who's great until you decide to be a raving ass or whatnot (note I am not suggesting people do that; that is a very bad idea.)


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Leman Russ being a big primarch does not mean the Space Wolves will be bigger than other marines. They have a better chance of it, because the geneseed does have marines take on some likeness to that given primarch


That was what I meant by that statement since they take after their primarch the wolves would most likely be larger then others. Look at the Space Wolf series the big wolf in the fourth(?) book was huge even though that is abnormal that certainly shows how extreme it can be



darkreever said:


> And taking your head off? Seriously, get on my bad side (by no means an easy feat believe me) and then piss me off. Then I'll flay you alive or something. Or piss off someone like Jez, who's great until you decide to be a raving ass or whatnot (note I am not suggesting people do that; that is a very bad idea.)


I guess that was poor use of words...as for you "flaying me alive" I really doubt that...for obvious reasons of a virtual bully isn't very scary. if you go off ranting at my mistakes I can always look the other way I don't have to read it the worst thing you can do is ban me which idk if you have the power to do and if you did then it would be completely uncalled for so type all you want.

also why do you bring up the helix in every post I admit I was wrong but I didn't feel like editting it because people would read that then your post and just think "oh forget that part then"

as for the entire reason we are in this mess I think that all of the post I commented on would be "no duh" things just as the fangs


but hey...that's just my 2 cents I say we drop it and return to normal human beings as shown in the other thread you corrected me on


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well the people of fenris were around 6 feet, i know that isnt that tall, but they were also at a tech lvl of the Vikings from our past and considering their diet and nutrition intake levels that pretty damn tall. 

@hippy,
If you don’t want him to get on you don't act like a prissy little girl. IOW shut up and let it go.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe we could get to the question the good Baron has asked and all quit the bitching, eh?

From what I'm understanding of the question, we're talking about things like the Iron Hand's desire to replace flesh with machine. I know that there is some talk in the fluff that it is considered to be a genetic trait. I don't think so; I think it is much more cultural, fused with the living-metal that Ferrus had on his hands.
Look at the IH's home world. It is a place that is harsh, something that they have to tame using whatever tools they can manufacture. Ferrus comes along and his hands are a point of attention on a being that is ALL points of attention. He, like most Primarchs leads the world and this has pushed them into following his mindset and taking on his attitudes- he was always one for machinery. When the Legions are formed, and Ferrus takes control it just ingrains the trust of technology and machinery all the more. Even when the Primarch is dead, this belief persists, that you can only trust machinery, that flesh is weak driven by the surviving IHs who believe that it was fleshly desires that drove the traitors and fleshly weaknesses that stopped the loyalists from stopping everything at the start.
It's a little bit like the IF's desire to scrimashaw the bones of dead comrades. This is attributed to a genetic quirk; I believe that it is a cultural thing. Just from my own understanding of human genetics, behaviours like body-replacement and scrimshawing can't be genetically passed on- they weren't there in the genes of the populations that the Legions took their recruits from, and using geneseed removes the reproductive evolution of sex, as geneseed is built from components to required standards with standardised parts from its own reserves- only if you damage these, like with the RG and IF will you change future properties of geneseed.

TL;DR flesh-machine, and scrimshaw = cultural.

GFP


----------



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

thanks for putting us back on topic xD do you know if the Iron Warriors have the same tendencies as IH?


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I was going to say no, but then I thought of the Techno-virus; I don't know if this is just a group of Techmarines or if it was a group of IW Techmarines/Terminators/Vets etc. If they do indulge in body-replacement, then it will be because they see it as a better way to kill-maim-burn, a rather pragmatic view, rather than the deep-seated psych issue that the IHs have, what with their Primarch seeming to be part mechine. Perturabo seemed to be fairly happy with who he is physically, as did Ferrus. The extreme body-modding, to my mind, is a cultural tick that has become exaggerated as a release valve for the pain the IHs feel at not being able to stop Horus before it all began, along with blaming everyone else for not doing enough, even though they clearly did.

GFP


----------



## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

what about the deathguard and there resistance to disease i think they had more than any other


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin is on the money for the sort of topics I'd like to discuss k:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got another Space Wolves one that I think stems mainly from their culture rather than any genetic quirk- their gregarious, pack mentality.

The people of Fenris *must *cooperate in a tribal manner, there's no way for loners to become a part of the culture and survive- I see this mentality being preserved in the transition to Astartes, whilst some elements of it do alter in the face of the lupine elements that run throughout the Chapter it's still far too similar to the Fenrisian ways for it to be considered one of the 'gifts' of Russ.

Summary- Pack Mentality= Nuture not Nature


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I agree, Baron; the tribe is all important to the Fenrisians, so it it follows that it would flow-on to the Chapter as a whole. 

The White Scar penchant for fast, mounted warfare. This is just the horseback war of the tribes whom Jaghatia lived with. The enhanced senses of the WSs makes them faster and more deadly, able to use their bikes in ways that others can only imagine. This would even be above other Chapters, although this is probably because their culture stresses that all tribespeople will be able to ride from a young age, and that all WSs would be riding their bikes/Landspeeders so much more than other, less specialised Chapters.
The scarification of faces/bodies and the tattooing that the Scars undergo is also a cultural holdover. Probably _every_ Chapter does this, to some extent, from the Ultras and even, on what flesh they have left, the IHs; I imagine that putting tattoos/scars of important Imperial icons on the body is seen as marking out that particular body-part as being good enough to use, although doubtless marked for replacement shoud it become necessarry.

GFP

+Rep, Baron. Cool thread!


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ah but with White Scars you've got the benefit of knowing that they're successor chapters are as aggressive and dedicated to fast attack as their primogenitor- so this penchant for mobilisation that the WS have could really blur the line between Genetics and Culture. 

Do the experiences and predilections of the Primarchs somehow influence their genetic code (if it wasn't to do with Primarchs I'd instantly dismiss such a theory) in regards to what they pass on to the Astartes made in their image? Or is it a case of the successor chapters following the method of war espoused by their genetic father of their own choosing despite the culture the aspirants originate from having no such predilection?


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I really do think that it is the culture that is the defining feature for all of it. The Khan, genetically, is very aggressive, but the way the culture that he grew up in shaped him is the defining issue. Through that lens is the Khan's aggression channeled and shaped. He will give vent to his feelings in a way that, say, Guilliman wouldn't; yet, if they were to have landed on each other's world as kids, then I think that they would have waged war in much the same way (IE Guilliman would be all about bikes, but probably really well organised ones...), although, of course, there would be differences.
As for the WS successors working in the same way as their Primogenitor, I think it is just what they are used to. I think I'm correct, but doesn't the Primogenitor, or one of their well-established successors, send a training cadre to help them get set-up? If so, then they will pass on the way of war that they are familiar and comfortable with. So, the Scars will emphasise mobile, hard-hitting, fast redeploying war (although they will always be able to turn their hands to other things because they are, after all, Astartes), and the Sallies will emphasis slower-paced war with a greater emphasis on burning the enemy out.
I think the genetics of the Primarchs is held as being more of a defining characteristic of their Legions character than is really the case. Individual responses to things will, of course, be dependent on genetics, but how that response is actualised will be dependent on the habits, traditions and cultural mores of the society they grew up in. So, I suppose, what I'm getting at is that almost everything that the Chapters, and the Legions before them, do is as a result of the culture from which they and their Primarch come from. Although I don't doubt that, somewhere in the mix, there are things caused by genetics- I just don't think that things like scrimshaw, body-modding, preference for mounted war, etc, are them.

GFP


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I`m agreeing with GFP on just about every point. Culture would be the main factor in a Chapter or Legion`s behaviour patterns.

The only exception that springs to mind is the Blood Angels. They are technically a codex chapter but because of 'the flaw' they seem to have a desire to emphasise close combat as a preferred style of warfare. (At least as I understand it. I`m not 100% on the BA fluff.)


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The flaw for the BA is the 'Red Thirst' and 'Black Rage' isn't it? With those things at the back of their respective minds I can see why the Chapter might be driven into CQC as much as possible. And, yes, I think those would be genetic, burned into the geneseed during the Signus Cluster campaign and then when Sanguinius was killed.
I actually think that to get a handle on the Primarch's genetic quirks, the real fundamental things that allow them to function, we might need to look at the _differences_ between them and their respective Legions. These things will be those that aren't changed by the cultural values they are exposed to and later adopt for themselves. Anyone agree?

GFP


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Such as the almost elemental rage of the Warhounds/World Eaters? They were already a Legion renowned for their fury before Angron was discovered, Angron's berserk anger may have merely become his natural state of mind due to the psycho-surgery rather than it originating from such barbarity.


----------



## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Such as the almost elemental rage of the Warhounds/World Eaters? They were already a Legion renowned for their fury before Angron was discovered, Angron's berserk anger may have merely become his natural state of mind due to the psycho-surgery rather than it originating from such barbarity.


About the Warhounds, I would attribute their berzerker-nature post-desh'ea to Angron's psycho-surgery. If my memory still serves me well, they were not 'crazy', in a sense, before Angron. From what Khârn tells us about the battle against the Worm things, they seemed like a normal fighting force of astartes. 

What characterized the Warhounds, and this is still given that my memory serves me, was their extreme ruthlessness, not really their fury. They had an extreme sense honor as well - Cutting down entire regiments of human auxiliaries for slighting them. I believe that was Angrons pure genes influencing them, rather than the berzerker rage being Angrons tampering with them. 

As for genes affecting other chapters, you could look at the Death Guard. They seem to have gained a hightened resistance to toxins (given this is pre-heresy) through their geneseed. Then again, this could also be due to the nature of the Death Guard imbibing all the toxins as a ritual.

What puzzles me however is the Black Rage and such. I am familiar with Cell-memory when it comes to organ donors, and this could be my unfamiliarity with the 'Loyalist Berzerkers', but it feels like such an improbability that The Black Rage could manifest itself upon the entirity of the Blood Angels' gene-seed supply. Now, dilution over time is a possibility but I don't understand how it couldn't have been weeded out as with the Lamenters (although cloning is implied here, something aking to the Macharius clones - mentioned in the Last Chancers series of books).


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Because each Blood Angel imbibed a portion of Sanguinius' blood as part of their intiation, before he died as well as after, so by the time of his murder all his warriors carried not only his gene seed but his actual blood within their bodies too.

The horrors done to the Lord of Angels wasn't just physical but also psychic, it's not inconceivable that Horus knew of these transfusions and directed his sorcery to affect every single warrior with that vitae running through his veins- as evidenced by all the Blood Angels going berserk when Sanguinius died.

Of course all future geneseeds originate from these marines so stricken- a taint that can't be cleansed and has become a cursed genetic memory.


----------



## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

knowing what little the baron himself has told me id have to say that is culture that defines the diffrences in the space marines, culture that the primaches where rasied in. Take Guilliman and Russ for example, one was raised in a barbaric enviroment and the other in a civil enviroment both translated this to their legions. The Space Wolves filled with barious men who solve argument with an axe, and the ultramarines who for the most part solve arguments with reason and debate.

yes you could say im talking about nature then as im saying it was the primarchs personalities that shaped their legions but it in turn the nuture of the primachs, the enviroment they where raised in, that gave then the nature they have so it nuture
if that makes sense


----------



## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> As for the WS successors working in the same way as their Primogenitor, I think it is just what they are used to. I think I'm correct, but doesn't the Primogenitor, or one of their well-established successors, send a training cadre to help them get set-up? If so, then they will pass on the way of war that they are familiar and comfortable with. So, the Scars will emphasise mobile, hard-hitting, fast redeploying war (although they will always be able to turn their hands to other things because they are, after all, Astartes), and the Sallies will emphasis slower-paced war with a greater emphasis on burning the enemy out.


Its more true of the second founding chapters as their original marines are just those of the parent legion with different coloured armour. However subsequent foundings are iirc created by the Adeptus Mechanicus following authorisation by the High Lords of Terra. I dont recall the actual founding process being described in details anywhere. 

Almost all chapters are officially codex anyway so if a cadre from an existing chapter is used to either form part of or to train the new chapter would they bother to try and tie them up with those that share geneseed or just pick one that happens to be handy and available. And as the vast majority of Chapters are Ultramarine descended anyway does it matter?


----------



## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

With regards to the Space Wolves' lengthening canines over time (as they get old, so too do they get long in the tooth - ie. 'old') I was under the impression that this was due to either a flaw in their betchers' gland or an improper interaction with the canis helix and the gland.

This fluff may have been changed.


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

darkreever said:


> And taking your head off? Seriously, get on my bad side (by no means an easy feat believe me) and then piss me off. Then I'll flay you alive or something. Or piss off someone like Jez, who's great until you decide to be a raving ass or whatnot (note I am not suggesting people do that; that is a very bad idea.)


Yeah trust me that wasn't bad compared to what he can do
I don't check my cupboard every night for the bogeyman, i check it for a pissed off darkreever.

I'm not 100 % sure if I'm on the right track but i'll go ahead anyway

The Iron Hands predilection towards bionics is most definitely nurture, however I would say that there loyalty, straightforwardness and mercilessness is part of there internal make up.

However I personally believe that each chapter marine aspires to match the virtues of there primarch and thus we could say that these characterisitics are in truth nurture.

I'd also say that these characteristics would become stronger and stronger as the primarch's pass into legend and the tales become more idealistic than honest.

Hence i'd say that many of the mental characteristics are based by culture whilst the physical ones are based in the geneseed

The space wolves are indeed the best example, the tribes of fenris are barbaric, they fight primarily in close combat and are naturally fierce, focusing on feasting and battling. Sounds like someone we know.

The dark angels too, proud, arrogant and chivalric, suits there knights of an order background.


----------



## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

WhoHitJohn? said:


> knowing what little the baron himself has told me id have to say that is culture that defines the diffrences in the space marines, culture that the primaches where rasied in. Take Guilliman and Russ for example, one was raised in a barbaric enviroment and the other in a civil enviroment both translated this to their legions. The Space Wolves filled with barious men who solve argument with an axe, and the ultramarines who for the most part solve arguments with reason and debate.
> 
> yes you could say im talking about nature then as im saying it was the primarchs personalities that shaped their legions but it in turn the nuture of the primachs, the enviroment they where raised in, that gave then the nature they have so it nuture
> if that makes sense


Aye, I think that the primarchs nurture maybe passed on within their geneseed, but also the tribes and whatnot where the marines are originally recruited would have a massive bearing too. Obviously the wolves being tribes on Fenris (as already nail-on-the-head stated earlier by Baron Spikey earlier), I would presume that most recruitment for chapters would be from similar type planets. The WS holding onto their horseback days with bikes and whatnot would probably be the same for their successor chapters, recruited from similar worlds as the original WS, but with the addition of the geneseed, which would probably have some bearing on it.

I always remember the Space Marine book years ago following the IF, and they were recruiting from hive gangs (can't remember whether it was a specific one) of every sort, but not sure what the script is these days with it, still picking up fluff as I go along.

I would of thought that most traits are nurture, with the exceptions being physical manifestations (sp?), bones growing where they shouldn't, crazy rages and whatnot, which I'd guess as nature?

It's all a little hazy ;-)


----------

