# Primarchs vs current 40k marines



## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

So I used to think that primarchs were just great leaders and their physical strength were just above a space marine terminator. After reading some HH books I have seen primarchs doing incredible feats like tossing tanks around, plowing through groups of space marines effortlessly, defeating top bloodthirsters in single combat and my views have changed significantly. So I have been wondering and my question is Do you guys think that any current CSM or SM in the 40k universe can defeat and kill a primarch (pre heresy) in single hand combat (theoretically)? If so how and why?


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

The simple answer is no. The primarchs were created as demi-gods, which were then used as templates for space marines. As you say, they were able to cut through swaths of space marines with little effort. It took the might of another primarch to bring one down.

Edit: As I foresee this coming up. Konrad Cruz does not count when he was killed by an Assassin. He had accepted his fate and allowed himself to be killed.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

No. 

The Primarchs are supernatural beings, capable of supernatural feats. It takes another such being or something specially designed to counter such beings to defeat them (or some extraordinary event). 

Primarchs have only been killed by another Primarch and in the case of Dorn unexplained circumstances. 

Daemonic Primachs have been defeated by specialist anti-daemonic forces, notably the Grey Knights but it takes a vast expenditure of effort and costs many lives. To defeat Angron it took a whole company of Grey Knight terminators. Daemonic Primarchs may in fact be weaker than their unaltered brethren, suffering the weaknesses, limitations and vulnerabilities of daemons. 

In single combat there is no Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine that could defeat a Primarch (excluding something like the Chaos Gods taking an active interest in the fight and 'fixing' the outcome or empowering the non-Primarch participant to a immense degree.)


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Even if the marine is able to land a hit the primarch's body would just regenerate, even the weakest primarchs (lorgar, alpharius omegon..) are total beasts when compared to normal marines being able to regenerate their internal organs by just sitting down for a couple of seconds.. not even the emperor's pretorians are able to threaten a primarch..

I think Kharn post-heresy vs lorgar pre-heresy would be a nice fight, they are total opposites and lorgar isnt a good fighter..Kharn would still need to land a head shot to win..


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

redmapa said:


> Even if the marine is able to land a hit the primarch's body would just regenerate, even the weakest primarchs (lorgar, alpharius omegon..) are total beasts when compared to normal marines being able to regenerate their internal organs by just sitting down for a couple of seconds.. not even the emperor's pretorians are able to threaten a primarch..
> 
> I think Kharn post-heresy vs lorgar pre-heresy would be a nice fight, they are total opposites and lorgar isnt a good fighter..Kharn would still need to land a head shot to win..


Lorgar would destroy Kharn. Lorgar was recognised as the weakest combatant of the Primarchs (at least before the Gods took an interest in him), but as everyone has said, a single Primarch is worth hundreds upon hundreds of standard marines. It doesn't help that Lorgar is only really sized up against his brothers, which may make him appear weaker than he actually is.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

The only three names that comes to mind that are post heresy CSM or SM that might be able to take on a pre-heresy primarch are Abaddon , Mephisto and Drago. 

At least in game top stat wise these three have higher stats compared to an average SM or CSM. I don't know if they would be able to beat a primarch but I certainly think they might have a shot compared to average space marine.


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## Pimped-out Deamonette (Jun 26, 2012)

Not a chance. Not only did Primarches have superior abilities and skill, they also had very powerful weapons and armor.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

When he (Nathanial Garro) met Dorn for the first time and ticked him off slightly, Dorn rushed at him wish such speed that Garro described is moving like a lightning bolt, he moved that fast. While the overall quality of Space Marines are better than the pre-heresy ones, they're still essentially Space Marines while the Primarchs are just so much more.

It'd be closer to say this:

Could an Adeptus Custodes take on a Primarch? Even still, the Primarch would win and the Custodes would kill a Space Marine.


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

There is no chance any normal SM could take a primarch. Abbadon is a walking close combat tank(or a hideous point sink, depends on your Pov,) and he couldnt hold a candle to the Primarchs. In Deliverance lost, abbadon threatens Alpharius, and he basically verbally bitch slaps him back in his place. So, even one of the "weaker" primarchs towers over one of the most powerful SC in the game? Just my two cents.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> There is no chance any normal SM could take a primarch. Abbadon is a walking close combat tank(or a hideous point sink, depends on your Pov,) and he couldnt hold a candle to the Primarchs. In Deliverance lost, abbadon threatens Alpharius, and he basically verbally bitch slaps him back in his place. So, even one of the "weaker" primarchs towers over one of the most powerful SC in the game? Just my two cents.


Current Abaddon might as he's had some perks thrown his way over the last 10,000 years from the Ruinous Powers, so he's not the Pre-Heresy Abaddon anymore.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

He'll be too busy being poked by his own Daemon Weapon to worry any primarch. Draigo would be bitch slapped by any non-daemon Primarch, and Mephiston comes nowhere close (considering he draws his strength from the experiences of Sanguinius).


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Current Abaddon might as he's had some perks thrown his way over the last 10,000 years from the Ruinous Powers, so he's not the Pre-Heresy Abaddon anymore.


Good point. 
I think he would still be somewhat overmatched, but I agree you are right that he is the closest thing that they have allowed in the game to the combat power of a primarch. 
Food for thinking though: On Ullanar, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back against the Greenskin hordes, and it is said that they were almost overwhelmed, until one of them cut off the arm of an Ork Warlord? So even Horus and the Emperor himself were vulnerable to massive numbers.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> Good point.
> I think he would still be somewhat overmatched, but I agree you are right that he is the closest thing that they have allowed in the game to the combat power of a primarch.
> Food for thinking though: On Ullanar, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back against the Greenskin hordes, and it is said that they were almost overwhelmed, until one of them cut off the arm of an Ork Warlord? So even Horus and the Emperor himself were vulnerable to massive numbers.


Isn't that also the battle where they had orks the size of a leman russ tank? 

Orks are basically baby primarchs. They are tough and get tougher through fighting it's no wonder they would be the one race that could threaten a primarch.


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

Could have been yeah. I always liked the imagery that even the Emperor was vulnerable, it made the whole Crusade era back story that much richer to imagine him risking his life out there, not just steamrolling inbred degenerates on backwater planets like the Island of Dr. Mureau.
Good point about the Orks too, I would imagine that back then they were much more powerfully individually too, since the Imperium's Pogrom against them was just beginning.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Current Abaddon might as he's had some perks thrown his way over the last 10,000 years from the Ruinous Powers, so he's not the Pre-Heresy Abaddon anymore.


Hmmm I completely agree that current abaddon might have a better chance than other marines in the current 40k but the fluff I read about abaddon does not show his strength as an equal to that of a primarch. Some of his feats I read in fluffs are smashing a 3 meter adamantium gate, getting injured by eldrad before the 13th crusade, and gaining the favor of the gods (which grants him authority? Or a strength boost? perhaps?).


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Abaddon has Horus old claws and some deamon sword that is pretty dangerous. I think he has some of the ruinous power bestowed on him to make him stronger and deadly. 

I think style makes fight. I mean if you follow boxing you know that certain styles are made for each other. For example a brawler would have a tough time with a classic boxer but easier time with a in-fighter. 

Draigo being a Grey Knight is meant to fight the ruinous power deamons . I mean I think Draigo would take out Abaddon easier than a Primarch BUT a Primarch might be able to take out draigo easier. 

Abaddion in his current state might be able to beat a primarch..but that's still up in the air. 

I think with Mephisto ...sure he did get more of his power from Sanguinius but I still think Mephisto may have a shot. I'm going by table top stat wise. 

Mephisto has 6 for strength and I think 6 for toughness. That's almost the same level of a deamon prince and a blood thirster . A primarch of old is about the same strength level of a blood thirster so that's my reasoning.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> I think with Mephisto ...sure he did get more of his power from Sanguinius but I still think Mephisto may have a shot. I'm going by table top stat wise.
> 
> Mephisto has 6 for strength and I think 6 for toughness. That's almost the same level of a deamon prince and a blood thirster . A primarch of old is about the same strength level of a blood thirster so that's my reasoning.


Tabletop stats and fluff don't really mesh. Fluff-wise, Mephiston would get absolutely creamed by a Primarch. None of the loyalists hold a snowball's hope in hell of beating a primarch.

As for chaos, the obvious pick would be Abaddon, though to me he'd only win if he can manage to score the first hit with _drach'nyen_. Otherwise he's going down. Eldrad seemed to match him if not better, which doesn't reflect well on his potential to kill a primarch. I mean, look how well a fresh Farseer did against a wounded and fatigued Ferrus Manus. He would have ended up a blood smear if he hadn't ran away. Granted, he isn't Eldrad, but still. 

And Eldrad ran away like a little bitch when Fulgrim got tired of listening to him, even though he wanted Fulgrim to be killed. Which to me shows that he would have died if he'd confronted Fulgrim head on.

Two guys people don't mention is Erebus and Kor Phaeron. These guys seemed to have already acquired quite a bit of power during the heresy. Kor Phaeron even gave Guilliman a decent run. And I'd imagine that both of them would have become even more powerful in the last 10k years.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

@chompy.
i agree Erebus and Kor are formidable opponents, but the fight with Guilliman cant really be used as a example of Kor's ability to fight a Primarch, other than the fact Guilliman was already massively fatigued and injured, Kor's greatest asset is the fact that in those days of the imperium, the space marines and the Primarch's included had little idea of the capabilities of the warp and so are in a way are fighting blind (Guilliman tore out his heart and was surprised when Kor was still alive), whereas if they fought and guilliman knew what Kor's capabilities were, for instance fighting a 100 years later in the same conditions, the ending would most likely be very different.


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm curious how everybody is going off tabletop stats to compare a fight with a primarch. Last time I checked there weren't tabletop stats for a primarch to compare to. As chompy mentioned you can't take tabletop stats vs fluff. It just doesn't mesh. Also the fight with Guilliman was after he was beat on and worn down. I'm pretty sure Kor had a bit of an advantage. In a straight duel, there is no space marine alive that could take down a primarch. Yes, in numbers they could, or with orbital bombardment or some other extreme measure (besides tossing them out into the vacuum of space as Guilliman proves not even that will kill a primarch). The IG count on the theory that numbers make a difference. When you add enough flashlights together you're bound to kill something. But the OP is questioning in a duel.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

The fight between Luther and the Lion maybe a good measure of a deamon empowered SM. I imagine Erebus and Kor maybe in the same level of Luther. I'm just guessing here . 

I think Kor became deamon prince . I'm not sure about Erebus. 

I think table top I read somewhere that a primarch of old is the same level of a blood thirster . Granted it's going to be different from stuff you read in the fluff regarding table top .


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

kwak76 said:


> The fight between Luther and the Lion maybe a good measure of a deamon empowered SM.
> 
> I think Kor became deamon prince . I'm not sure about Erebus.



Good one about Luthor and Johnson, if I remember, they were pretty evenly matched in that battle. Admittedly, Luthor was the 2nd in Command of the DA at that time, but still, didn't it say that their battle tore pieces of the planet apart? 

I dont think that Erebus became a Demon Prince. Last book I read he was head of the council, or grand seer or something important like that, but he was still human, sorta.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Luthor was MASSIVELY pumped up by the Chaos Gods. So that has to be kept in mind as well.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

We also need to remember that Luther was spared a killing blow from Lion because Lion had hesitated due to his strong friendship with Luther.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> In single combat there is no Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine that could defeat a Primarch (excluding something like the Chaos Gods taking an active interest in the fight and 'fixing' the outcome or empowering the non-Primarch participant to a immense degree.)


This pretty much sums it up. 

Luther, Kor-Phaeron, and Eugen Temba manage to challenge primarchs because of Chaos intervention. Luther actually defeats the Lion. 

Note that none of those three individuals are full Astartes. Luther and Kor-Phaeron are half-Astartes and Eugen Temba is an unaugmented human. Chaos is capable of boosting an individual's power by a tremendous degree 

That said, Abbadon would probably have the best chance



Diatribe1974 said:


> Could an Adeptus Custodes take on a Primarch? Even still, the Primarch would win and the Custodes would kill a Space Marine.


No, the custodes would probably last 0.01 sec longer...that's about it

According to _Blood Games_, custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Astartes, but only a fool would try to predict the outcome of a contest between a custodes and an Astartes.

In _The First Heretic_, one of the elite custodes sent to watch over Lorgar manages to kill a whopping total of 3 Astartes before being taken out by the fourth. That's nowhere near primarch level.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Interesting, I have always thought Kor Phaeron and Luther even though half augmented and before their powers were boosted significantly by chaos were still stronger than the average marine. Temba was not only was boosted in terms of durability but also his anatheme gave him the advantage as it could adapt to the opponents fighting skill. Abaddon however as people say probably has the best chance but we still don't know how significantly he is boosted by chaos as the fluff dosen't really state it. After all he still got injured by eldrad.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> In _The First Heretic_, one of the elite custodes sent to watch over Lorgar manages to kill a whopping total of 3 Astartes before being taken out by the fourth. That's nowhere near primarch level.


Yeah, and just to put this into perspective, during the battle at Isstvan V some primarchs were killing 3-4 marines with individual blows. So, as Monty said, a custodes would get destroyed virtually just as badly as a marine would.



The_Reaper said:


> Interesting, I have always thought Kor Phaeron and Luther even though half augmented and before their powers were boosted significantly by chaos were still stronger than the average marine. Temba was not only was boosted in terms of durability but also his anatheme gave him the advantage as it could adapt to the opponents fighting skill. Abaddon however as people say probably has the best chance but we still don't know how significantly he is boosted by chaos as the fluff dosen't really state it. After all he still got injured by eldrad.


No, half astartes aren't as good as the real product. There is still an example in _The First Heretic_ where Kor Phaeron cannot see what's going on on the battlefield because it is too far away but the regular astartes can.

Chaos can give people a massive boost in power. Remember, Temba had still effortlessly killed a Luna Wolf captian who managed to reach him before Horus. Another example is in the one Grey Knights novel. If I recall correctly, at one point a crusty old sorcerer who looks like a strong wind will snap him in half was managing to overpower a Grey Knights terminator.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Chompy Bits said:


> No, half astartes aren't as good as the real product. There is still an example in _The First Heretic_ where Kor Phaeron cannot see what's going on on the battlefield because it is too far away but the regular astartes can.
> 
> Chaos can give people a massive boost in power. Remember, Temba had still effortlessly killed a Luna Wolf captian who managed to reach him before Horus. Another example is in the one Grey Knights novel. If I recall correctly, at one point a crusty old sorcerer who looks like a strong wind will snap him in half was managing to overpower a Grey Knights terminator.


Yeah I definitely agree that an full astartes has more advantages but what I really meant was Kor Phaeron's strength and fighting skills. Is there any fluff that states a regular marine beating Kor Phaeron in combat?(just wondering). Chaos can indeed can boost one levels to higher levels but it depends how much an individual is boosted. Personally I think Luther was boosted more than abaddon since abaddon technically lost in a fight against eldrad.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

The_Reaper said:


> Interesting, I have always thought Kor Phaeron and Luther even though half augmented and before their powers were boosted significantly by chaos were still stronger than the average marine.


Uh, no...
Half-Astartes are less augmented and therefore inferior to full Astartes by a significant margin. Kor-Phaeron wears Terminator armour. That would be an advantage. 

Luther is a great knight in the old days. However, compared to full Astartes, I don't think he's a great fighter (those would be the likes of Alajos, Corswain, and Astelan). He's probably a subpar fighter and it's likely another issue that grates on him. Of course Luther would benefit from really good equipment. 

I wonder why they never tried to give the likes of Luther and Kor-Phaeron augmentations similar to those given to Imperial Assassins. Perhaps assassin augmentations also require young recruits.



Chompy Bits said:


> Yeah, and just to put this into perspective, during the battle at Isstvan V some primarchs were killing 3-4 marines with individual blows. So, as Monty said, a custodes would get destroyed virtually just as badly as a marine would.


To put this into even more perspective, some elite space marines go around destroying a dozen average space marines.

In Little Horus, Hibou Khan slays a dozen Sons of Horus before retreating.



> Hibou Khan had gotten back on his feet. To replace his own, broken sword, the White Scar had snatched up the long blade of Medusan steel that Henricos had wielded. His first blow notched Mourn-it-all, his second beat Aximand’s guard. His third blow caught Little Horus vertically at the cheek, in a line that began just over the right eye-piece where his Mournival mark was displayed. The bonded ceramite of his helm didn’t even seem to stop the Medusan weapon. Aximand fell.
> . . .
> Hibou Khan had fled, leaving twelve men of Aximand’s company dead by his own hand, and earning himself a place on Aximand’s death list.


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

The_Reaper said:


> We also need to remember that Luther was spared a killing blow from Lion because Lion had hesitated due to his strong friendship with Luther.


If I remember right, the same applied to the battle between Horus and the Emperor. He hesitated to destroy his favorite son, and paid for it with his life. 
Thats how I remember it from the two paragraph sections that used to be sparsed around the rule books.


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