# A Rant on Nids



## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

What is up with the Tyranid Codex? It was nerfed more than teh original 3rd ed one.

Broodlord - cool concept. But he removes all fleet capabilities from his retinue of genestealers. What's the point of infiltrating a unit of 'stealers if they cannot get a decent assault?

Lictors - They are too weak. THey need T5, and a 3+ armor save.

Mine clusters - why is it limited to 1-3 mines. SHould be 1-10 mines as a unit. And bio acid mines 3+2d6 for pen? this is not a realistic strength or pen possibility. Should have at least been S4 + 2d6.

Biovores - Why do they have to target the same unit? In the rules for shooting mines it states that the mines have to be placed as a cluster. They should be allowed to fire at independent targets.

Zoanthropes - Awesome model, great idea. Warp blast to kill a tank is 18" range? WTF?? It is a HS option. It needs range. Warp blast needs 36" range to kill a tank.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

fair enough, but if it wasnt nerfed wouldnt everyone be whinging about the non-nerfage??


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Yeah, i do have to agree that the Nid codex was slightly nerfed from 3rd to 4th edition codices. Lictors and biovores were down-graded which is a shame as i think both are just slightly off being truely useful units. The thing with the lictor though i think is he is still really good vs some armies, for example Guard, whilst increasing his usefulness against other armies could make it REALLY too good vs those armies. It can still be a useful model though, pheromone trail is useful for anyone who plays escalation frequently, and it can sometime make a nice surprise run vs hidden tanks etc. Other than that it really does need support to get any sort of consistant results.

Biovores: Yeah they should be able to fire seperately and the small blast just isn't good enough for most of the sporemines. 

Zoanthropes: Whilst there range is short they haven't changed overly much and do have there uses imo. They are a great source of synapse that starts in escalation AND are pretty tough with there 2+ save and 2 wounds. I often use 3 + 2 Carnifex's equiped for long range support.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree, it is a great balanced codex. I have never seen the amount of varied types of lists in tourneys and otherwise for the Tyranids as I have seen with this codex, and competitive lists at that


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm not convinced its been nerfed.

I have been handed my arse by a mate of mine a couple of times recently. Three or four fex's and a tyrant are hard to take down whoever you are.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

I really like the Tyranid codex. I think that once the other* mega* codex's get toned down then the tyranid one will come into its own. IMO the problem with making a very fearsome Nid army is that the most evil options are the one's which cost the most money so people cant do! 

For example. I know Skuzz has talked about somebody having enough money to do 6 units of 30 spine gaunts! 900 points of *" shit im going to need more heavy bolters than *@@@*!" *

*Thats 180 gaunts! Thats a lot! *

MarzM :mrgreen: 
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 

*@@@* please insert the name of your chosen deity!


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooow 180 guants... wooooooooooooooooow lol, thats alot of shooting...and chopping to cut through those... wooooooooooooooooooow
fear the pie plates though


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> What is up with the Tyranid Codex? It was nerfed more than teh original 3rd ed one.


Clearly you haven't seen my friends 1700pt tournament list then. 5 MC's backed up by a horde of Guants and Genestealers. Not easy to beat simply because you must choose between them. Do you kill the fast movers quickly or go for the beasties before they slog across the table? I have an easier time against Iron Warriors, I shit you not.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Bugs are a hard core army, no doubt. No nerfage, just difficulty using them properly.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

ehh...I just get teh feeling GW dropped teh ball designing teh codex. Unless it is an example of how all other codexes are going to be nerfed.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, then, that's just utter paranoia. It's probably a result of keenly detecting every minor flaw in the codex, without consciously accepting any of the bonuses.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Nerfed?? NERFED?!?!?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME, no seriously, are you??.

considering 96% of all Tyranid lists I have played against are Rending bitches of doom armies consisting of (usually) 2 Tyrants, 3 Carnis, and as many Stealers as possible, the Tyranids are FAAAAAR from frelling Nerfed, there an army for power gamers who like cheap victories and don't have to think to win.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

And there's the other side of the coin. I was wondering how long this would take.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

:lol: Classic internet discussion. :lol:


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> there an army for power gamers who like cheap victories and don't have to think to win.


Going on this and your posts on Warseer, is there any army you DON'T think is for power gamers who want cheap victories without having to think?

Nids are a weird army, a lot of people don't like using them and think they're a lower tier codex, however some people have been using them for a long time with devestating effect. They definitely seem to be able to compete with the big boys at tournaments, so I think Hespithe has hit the nail on the head:



> Bugs are a hard core army, no doubt. No nerfage, just difficulty using them properly.


They reward inventive and good usage, but are no longer the army that they were in 3rd ed, where it all seemed to depended on if your opponent shot enough of your headlong charge straight across the table (with Synapse node gaunts :roll: ) before you chopped them up.


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

MarzM said:


> I think that once the other* mega* codex's get toned down then the tyranid one will come into its own. [/b]
> 
> Yep the usual internet postings......so the other MEGA armies get nerfed........Tyranids come into there own......
> 
> ...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

anathema said:


> > there an army for power gamers who like cheap victories and don't have to think to win.
> 
> 
> Going on this and your posts on Warseer, is there any army you DON'T think is for power gamers who want cheap victories without having to think?


Nope, because thats all MOST people want to do with any army they buy, make an army for a cheap win and make sure they have fun and there opponent does not, its just Tyranids are the easiest to do it with (along with Necrons) 

Lots of stealers, lots of Carnis, winged Tyrants, badda bing badda boom they win in 3-4 turns easy, and don't say they don't I've fought 10 different people with lists like this, the worst I suffered was a turn 2 defeat, but thats because I was sick of this guys power gamer attitude and I threw in the towel.


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> (along with Necrons)


I wish !!!

:roll:


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> anathema said:
> 
> 
> > > there an army for power gamers who like cheap victories and don't have to think to win.
> ...


*Holds tongue re: "everyone is a powergamer"*

Tyranids the easiest army to powergame with? 3-4 turn auto-win? Are you serious? :roll: Ever played Iron Warriors?

Nids have weaknesses to exploit just like any other army. I'd rather face a stealer/carnifex army than a swarm or hybrid list any day of the week. You just have to find ways round it like every other army.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

I always thought that building an army in 40K to be as effective as possible through trial and error was one of the most enjoyable things. At the end of the day, your fun is your responsibility. IMO having fun in a game is down to your attitude towards the other person and his attitude towards you. Being polite and finding common ground to laugh about - regardless of the result.

I hear this "Powergamer" whinge all the time. At the end of the day if the result of the game matters to you so much that you can't have fun, even if you're beaten then how does that make you better than the guy who can write a good list and play it well? This little rant really does just come across as sour grapes and somewhat childish.

If you're being beaten by nids in 2 turns then i also suggest you need to up your game.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

I am not talking about army weaknesses here. All armies have weaknesses.

My complaint is that GW made some really cool units with awesome capabilities then removed those capabilities by crippling the same unit in another way.

The Broodlord has the awesome ability to infiltrate. They then nerf his infiltrate ability by not letting him fleet of claw. WTF?

That's like saying I'm gonna make you a fully automatic weapon but hand you one bullet at a time to fire.

What was the point in giving him Infiltrate if he cannot Fleet of claw? It's retarded. All my initial examples are like this.

What's the point in using the Lictor if he cannot survive when an enemy unit attacks back? What's the point in using a Zoanthrope with Warp Blast if it cannot get into the 18" range required? What's the point in having Biovores that can hide and fire indirectly when they have to target the same thing? What's the point in taking a spore mine cluster as a Fast Atttack choice if you cannot get enough of them to cover any decent amount of ground?


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

Game balance? 

First turn charge with a broodstealer unit, blast everyone's tanks from 36" and then deepstrike Lictors who kill everything. Opponent puts models away. "Well that was fun"

While we're on the subject why don't my 10 ft tall battlesuits gets rending armour punch attacks? Weak in combat? Can't have that.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

stompzilla said:


> Game balance?
> 
> First turn charge with a broodstealer unit, blast everyone's tanks from 36" and then deepstrike Lictors who kill everything. Opponent puts models away. "Well that was fun"
> 
> While we're on the subject why don't my 10 ft tall battlesuits gets rending armour punch attacks? Weak in combat? Can't have that.


You're missing my point. I would be totally fine if the Broodlord did not even have infiltrate. But GW teases us with cool possibilities for Nid units then nerfs them. I'm just saying they should have either gone the full 9 or never attempted it in teh first place.

I'm not asking to have totally broken units. What I am asking for is that if a unit is given an ability, make it an effective one. Don't give it a cool ability then make that same ability useless.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

pathwinder14 said:


> What was the point in giving him Infiltrate if he cannot Fleet of claw?
> 
> What's the point in using the Lictor if he cannot survive when an enemy unit attacks back?
> What's the point in using a Zoanthrope with Warp Blast if it cannot get into the 18" range required?
> ...


I can try to answer at least a couple of these..

Broodlord- Absolutley game balance. Also gives a forward synapse for fast advancing troops if you keep him in cover and spring him when the time is right. Very lethal when used well.

Lictor- Is not supposed to be survivable. Strictly used as a shock troop. You get in, you do as much damage, you die. Thats been the Lictors lot in life for quite a long time.

Zoanthrope- Don't take the warp blast if you don't like it. There are plenty of other powers that he has that do just as well. But if you're opponent is focusing on Zoathropes and taking out his Warp Blast before he gets within 24" (since he moves 6, it's effectively 24"), then your fast stuff is going to be upon him anyway.

Biovores- I agree went down a bit in power, but they are like any other barrage now and should be used accordingly. You are not asking for the biovores to be changed with your question, but the barrage rules in general.

Spore Mines- Never used them outside of a biovore, so I don't know

All in all, definatley not nerfed, just takes thought in playing them now. Nerf is a stupid word, as bad as beardy. Things are done for balance, and the tyranids are one of the most balanced out there now.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

blkdymnd said:


> pathwinder14 said:
> 
> 
> > What was the point in giving him Infiltrate if he cannot Fleet of claw?
> ...


Broodlord...ok I can see your point. I never use models that worry about synapse.

Lictor. I disagree. He cannot even take out a 5 man Devastator squad without some lucky rolls. I realize he's 80 points and teh Dev squad is like 250 but he should be able to wreak havoc on those 5 models. Even if I take 2 lictors I have no guarantee they will DS at the same time. He's only good against camped out vehicles like basilisks, and whirlwinds.

Zoanthrope's warp blast used to have a better range. 18" is a joke. Even other S 10 weapons have a better range. Cough, Cough Rail Cough, Cannon cough.....

Biovores should not be barrage. They should just be a normal guess range weapon.

Spore mines...well their bioacid is weak at punching through armor and you only get 3 in a unit. It used to be something like 7 or 10 in a unit.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> I'm not asking to have totally broken units. What I am asking for is that if a unit is given an ability, make it an effective one. Don't give it a cool ability then make that same ability useless.


If you don't want a broken unit, then don't ask for first turn charging Broodlords. There are tons of units that infiltrate but don't fleet. Striking Scorpions for one. 
When combined with a squad of hormogaunts to pin the target in place, you'll be able to get him into combat. Its all about the way you use something.

As for lictors not being able to kill a unit of Devs, if its tied them up for a turn allowing the rest of your army to avoid being shot its made its points back. I hate the damn things, they stop me doing anything for a turn, usually just when I need it to. Again, combined arms. Use them to hold something in combat just where you're advancing to.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

anathema said:


> If you don't want a broken unit, then don't ask for first turn charging Broodlords. There are tons of units that infiltrate but don't fleet. Striking Scorpions for one.


I am not asking for a first turn charging Broodlord. All I am asking is to not be teased with the posssibility. At least the striking scorpions have pistols and can shoot.



anathema said:


> When combined with a squad of hormogaunts to pin the target in place, you'll be able to get him into combat. Its all about the way you use something.


I see your point. It makes sense, but I never use gaunts. I only run stealers and rippers as my troops. Maybe it's my fault. I dunno.



anathema said:


> As for lictors not being able to kill a unit of Devs, if its tied them up for a turn allowing the rest of your army to avoid being shot its made its points back.


The *ONLY* way to earn points back is to kill stuff. You can tie up other units yes, but unless you actually kill those models you are not earning your points back. These are two different ideas, both of which have merit. I perfer to actually kill an enemy squad, not dance around it for a turn then die. I want my lictors to do more than pop out of the bushes and say, "Boo!"


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

pathwinder14 said:


> The *ONLY* way to earn points back is to kill stuff. You can tie up other units yes, but unless you actually kill those models you are not earning your points back. These are two different ideas, both of which have merit. I perfer to actually kill an enemy squad, not dance around it for a turn then die. I want my lictors to do more than pop out of the bushes and say, "Boo!"


That is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. Math-hammer (which I loathe and detest) tells you that for _a_ to be effective, _a_ must kill so many _b_'s to equal the points cost of _a_, and that is so narrow minded its silly. Anything that will help you acheive your mission and *win your scenario* is effective. If I send in a full unit of 30 Grots to tie up a Command Squad of Terminators for 2 full turns, and the Grots are able to allow their player to have a unit of boyz claim a table quarter and now there is not enough time for those terminators to get over to contest that table quarter, then all of a sudden those gretchin are extremely effective. If they lose in the first round of the combat with the Terminators and are overrun or run away, then they were not as effective as they could have been.

Yes, getting your points cost back is nice, but if Lictors are tying up Devs from shooting the hell out of the rest of your army and allowing your heavy stuff to advance unabated, then they were well worth their points cost.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Dont forget, devs ARE marines in power armor, sending a lone lictor against them thinking your going to do soem "serious" damage is just kinda foolish with how difficult it is to kill power armor, if anything against marines they should be used to hold up key units for a turn or two, now if you use them smart, sending them where you can see them fufilling the purpose you want, now if you want lictors to kill marines might not wanna bring it then :lol: unless you get good rolls you'll take out one or two maybe, and broodlord heh, broodlord doesnt have fleet because hes got a retunie of stealers to take the shots until they make it into CC, ive been killed a good many times because a broodlord assulting a key unit(havocs or termies usually) and killing them to a man because A) I7 power weapon and you want FLEET!? B) broodlords are pretty tough to hit back on the counter assult C) that retinue of stealers made it a pain in the ass to get to him
Imo, broodlord is a great IC, just need to use him right, now stacking a fleeting broodlord with the # of MC's and swarms nids can get, well thats just not fair :lol:


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Maybe it's my army list. I'll post the latest version for a 2000 point force. I'll throw it in the army lists section.


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