# Fighting a dread with str 4 pointless?



## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

A friend of mine attacked my squad of thousand sons and Ahriman with his dreadnought in close combat, i was wondering what the heck i could do because i could not damage his 12 front armour with just power weapons The dread and TS the only units left on the battlefield on round 5 including my own immobilised combi rhino.

What could i do? is there a way to do a tactical retreat so i could use the bolt of Tzentch? Or some how attack his rear armour? (so annoyed i can't use 2 shooting spells in one phase) 

Ahriman and TS's turned his powfist termies to jelly as I rolled well on inv save and took them out with forceweapons. (that made me smile cause I thought I was going to loose in points)

We ended up calling a draw because we don't understand victory points and what you have to roll to see if game ends after turn 5.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Don't all Space Marines have Krak grenades? You needs 6s to hit, but it's better than nothing.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, they are CSM, but it's a valid point.


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## ManWithaPlan (Feb 15, 2010)

If those guys don't have krak grenades or whatever CSM's equivalent is, then that fight is going nowhere. And you can't back out of combat, once you're there you're stuck until you maybe flee from losing combat.

I think you need to roll a 4+ at the end of turn 5 to see if it keeps going but not sure.

VP's are the actual points cost of everything that was completely killed or left at less than 50% (which at that point is only worth half the total cost of the unit). Immobilized vehicles or greater count as full VP's as well as and IC's that were killed. They stand alone with VP's.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

The BRB would have the exact rules. I don't have it with me so I can't give you the relevant page #(s).

VPs aren't really used anymore though, are they? Doesn't everything run off of KPs now?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BiOHaTe said:


> What could i do? is there a way to do a tactical retreat so i could use the bolt of Tzentch? Or some how attack his rear armour? (so annoyed i can't use 2 shooting spells in one phase)


No. There are no voluntary fall back moves unless the unit in question has the _Hit and Run_ universal special rule. No, there's no way to attack his rear armor either. You resolve all your attacks against a walker's front armor in close combat. Since Thousand Sons are _Fearless_, they'll never break, so basically that unit was screwed. It might seem unfair until you realize that it's a tactical error to allow a Dreadnought into close combat with a unit of Thousand Sons in the first place. 



> We ended up calling a draw because we don't understand victory points and what you have to roll to see if game ends after turn 5.


Just read the relevent section in the rulebook. It explains things pretty clearly. 

Katie D


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Don't all Space Marines have Krak grenades? You needs 6s to hit, but it's better than nothing.


Negative.
1k Sons comes with a Bolter.
. as in no more equipment.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

In combat TS cant hurt the dread... but if they got round behind it you could bolter the rear armour. Although basically put, if the battle is going to be decided by a dread vs TS then you've lost.


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## Argitist (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah, it sucks. You could buy meltabombs for the champion, but it's probably best to just keep out of assault... however you can


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I have to ask why didn't his Dread just pound your unit into mush until you rolled for the game to end or Turn 7 ended. 

VPs work like this any units at half strength, IC's or MC's with half their wounds or less or vehicles with damage count for half the total value, i.e. a 100 pt unit would then be worth 50pts. Any unit that is fully destroyed, dead IC or MC, and a vehicle blown to the scrap yard is worth it's full weight in gold (all the points it was worth). Whomever tallies up the least amount of points for their army is the winner. Now they say a difference of less than 10% counts as victory, in the previous editions it if you didn't break a 200 point difference it was a draw.

In previous editions because there wasn't a specific rule we use to let units that weren't fearless break and run (I admit my IG did this a lot). It happened so frequently I can't remember if it was against the rules or not. Basically if a unit wasn't fearless we allowed them to simply break, count as broken and if they couldn't regroup (because there were less than 50% of them, enemy near, whatever) they counted as broken. Which means you can still shoot, but are considered destroyed for VP purposes. This ofcourse sucked in previous editions because most units would sweeping advance and almost always catch them, lol. But no in this edition you are stuck, definitely if you are fearless. 

You honestly think some zombielike dust in armour wouldn't continually knock at the front door of a sarcophagus?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

VanitusMalus said:


> I have to ask why didn't his Dread just pound your unit into mush until you rolled for the game to end or Turn 7 ended.


Thousand Sons have an excellent Invulnerable save, so it'd take a Dreadnought ages to cut through the entire unit.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

hmm just noticed a Dread has 2 attacks and with the 4+ Invul of the TS yeah it would have taken forever. I don't play Chaos very often, surprise surprise, in fact the last Chaos player I played against was back in 3rd Edition, back in 2001. Wow has it been that long.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, the TS will never get killed by the dread (your TS are losing an average of 0.56 wounds a turn), but you have to remember that the dread is nice and cheap... while the TS arent. So the marine player has just tied up one of your expensive units with a cheap throwaway...


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

sounds like a pretty sound tactic on his friend's part.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for the Replies, i totally forgot about Krak grenaids and having given my TS sorcerer a meltabomb! Yeah his dread and termies couldnt kill my TS very well, i ended up destroying most of the termies with Ahriman and TS sorcerer's forceweapons. The Dread kept missing and i got some lucky Inv saves. 

The battle was
Me:
Ahriman
7 TS 1 Sorcerer+meltabomb(which i forgot)+doombolt
4 CSM+flamer 1 Champion+Power fist+combi+Combi Rhino

He had
Commander+power sword
11 SM+missile launcher+flamer 1 sergeant
4 terminators+4 power fists 1 sergeant+power sword
1 Dreadnought+Multimelta+dread CC arm

We finished the game with 
non wounded Ahriman and Sorcerer
immobilised Rhino

Dreadnought with his multimelta blown off.

Who do you think would of won? Now i think about it i could of atleast got some lucky shots in with meltabombs and krak grenades


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

VanitusMalus said:


> sounds like a pretty sound tactic on his friend's part.


It is. The Dreadlock (I know, I know... I didn't make up the name) is something a lot of people aspire to do when it comes to using their Dreadnoughts.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, his dread just needs to win combat to start looking at "no retreat" wounds as a possibility, correct?

But additionally, meltabombs would, if they hit, help things along considerably. Remembering them would have been sublime.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

If Ahriman was still alive alive in the fight against the dread he has krak grenades that can glance it, with warp time and a lot of luck he might be able to destroy it over time.. he would need a immobilize and 2 weapon destroyed plus another of either to kill it though and with only one krak attack per phase it would be quite a long shot, but in theori he could do it.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Yeah i was lucky that he chose to CC me with the termies because he would have killed me easier if he held back and shot 10 storm bolters+dread stormbolter which would give him 22 shots per turn as they can fire in shooting and assault phase. 

3+ armour wouldn't have saved me, but i'd prob get close enough to use winds of chaos hitting on a 4+ and they would only be able to get their 5+ inv. Or use Bolt of change to damage the dreadnought.

Question, does warptime allow for rerolls with other spells?


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> It is. The Dreadlock (I know, I know... I didn't make up the name) is something a lot of people aspire to do when it comes to using their Dreadnoughts.


 how long have you been playing for? you seem very veteran.
I totally didn't know about this Dreadlock lol.

I can't believe how expensive CSM is compared to SM!


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> Yeah i was lucky that he chose to CC me with the termies because he would have killed me easier if he held back and shot 10 storm bolters+dread stormbolter which would give him 22 shots per turn as they can fire in shooting and assault phase.
> 
> 3+ armour wouldn't have saved me, but i'd prob get close enough to use winds of chaos hitting on a 4+ and they would only be able to get their 5+ inv. Or use Bolt of change to damage the dreadnought.
> 
> Question, does warptime allow for rerolls with other spells?


Yes, I believe it does, especially devastating for Wind, as you probably were thinking.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Ah another fact has come to my mind. He should of split up his marine squad to have the troops slot filled. Not have them all in one big group. Ah well, we are learning.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

BiOHaTe said:


> Yeah i was lucky that he chose to CC me with the termies because he would have killed me easier if he held back and shot 10 storm bolters+dread stormbolter which would give him 22 shots per turn as *they can fire in shooting and assault phase*.


Wait, what?

You mean, like, he could charge after firing? Or is there something that I really shouldn't have missed when I leafed through the dex the last time I was in a shop?


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Read the rule book Assault weapons can fire in shooting and assault phase? I'm assuming you don't need to charge.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

No, you can only shoot those in the shooting phase, assault allows you to well, assault after using them, though that means nothing for Termies, who can do that with any weapon.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> No. There are no voluntary fall back moves unless the unit in question has the _Hit and Run_ universal special rule. No, there's no way to attack his rear armor either.
> Katie D


Well, if you were loyalist marines you could choose to fail your LD and hope you make the I check.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BiOHaTe said:


> how long have you been playing for? you seem very veteran.
> I totally didn't know about this Dreadlock lol.


About ten years, so it's not surprising I know stuff that you don't haha.  Feel free to PM me if you need help though!

Katie D


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> About ten years, so it's not surprising I know stuff that you don't haha.  Feel free to PM me if you need help though!
> 
> Katie D


Thank you for your courtesy, I hope I won't be needing too much help! 
I have learnt much today and look forward to the time where your knowledge and advice will make me a better man/player  You have my thanks.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Arkanor said:


> Well, if you were loyalist marines you could choose to fail your LD and hope you make the I check.


That's a good point, actually. I'd forgotten about Combat Tactics. Thanks for the correction.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

In previous editions there was a specific rule. 3rd ed had voluntary fallback, it went away in 4th. So no way to break unless you lose and run. And since TS are fearless, all they can do is stand and die. That's one reason all my IG sgts carry meltabombs..............

Necessary die rolls for the game to continue are listed on page 90 of the main rulebook, in the Ending the Game paragraph. 

And Victory Points are still in the main rulebook, page 108 if you have the AoBR version, page 300 (IIRC) for the hardbound version.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Was it just when orks are fearless they lose a boy when they fail LD roll?
i think they become fearless when there is more than 10 boys.
Or is it for all fearless units in all armies?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

BiOHaTe said:


> Was it just when orks are fearless they lose a boy when they fail LD roll?
> i think they become fearless when there is more than 10 boys.
> Or is it for all fearless units in all armies?


What you're thinking of is the No Retreat rule, which is that basically if a unit always passes its morale tests through being _Fearless_ or other means, the unit suffers an additional wound in close combat for each wound that it lost the combat by. So if you have a _Fearless_ unit that loses combat by two wounds, the unit will suffer two wounds at the end of combat.

The way it works for Orks is that if the unit is more than 10 strong, it becomes _Fearless_, so they'll start losing models quickly when they lose combat.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> What you're thinking of is the No Retreat rule, which is that basically if a unit always passes its morale tests through being _Fearless_ or other means, the unit suffers an additional wound in close combat for each wound that it lost the combat by. So if you have a _Fearless_ unit that loses combat by two wounds, the unit will suffer two wounds at the end of combat.
> 
> The way it works for Orks is that if the unit is more than 10 strong, it becomes _Fearless_, so they'll start losing models quickly when they lose combat.


Ah just read the Ork codex, it is apparently 11 models strong makes them fearless. Also a Bosspole allows you to reroll failed moral tests but you have to sacrifice a model. 

Damn No retreat seems costly, specially for thousand sons or plague marines.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

It can be quite costly. Last Nid codex, I saw a guy assault three Nid units, two squads of Warriors and a squad of gaunts. He massacred the gaunts, winning the combat by 17 wounds. Each Warrior unit then had to take 17 No Retreat wounds due to Synapse. That's why Stubborn is so much better in 5th.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes stubborn is far superior in 5th but fearless is still good- in Don's example if the nids hadent been fearless they would have been taking a Ld test with a -17 modifier (so insane courage required) and if they had broken they could have all been destroyed by a sweeping advance. Admittedly with a -17 mod they are likely dead either way but if its only a 1-2 taking a couple of saves is usually not too bad, but if you are taking a Ld6-8 test there is a good chance of failing, which if you are not marines could well be disasterous.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Yes stubborn is far superior in 5th but fearless is still good- in Don's example if the nids hadent been fearless they would have been taking a Ld test with a -17 modifier (so insane courage required) and if they had broken they could have all been destroyed by a sweeping advance. Admittedly with a -17 mod they are likely dead either way but if its only a 1-2 taking a couple of saves is usually not too bad, but if you are taking a Ld6-8 test there is a good chance of failing, which if you are not marines could well be disasterous.


if it was -17 to LD roll the units LD would be 0 or 1 and that means they instantly run/retreat. because you can't roll lower than a 2.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

A double 1 is Auto pass for leadership test. 'Insane Bravery' or something the rules called. 

Aramoro


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

I can see sittuations where sacing a model to a bosspoll to take yourself down to 10 models would be worth it, given the right combat details. Hmm.

The leadership-related tricks are certainly more complex these days than they were in 3rd.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> Ah just read the Ork codex, it is apparently 11 models strong makes them fearless. Also a Bosspole allows you to reroll failed moral tests but you have to sacrifice a model.


you don't have to sacrifice a model, you just take a wound, witch can be saved


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> I can see sittuations where sacing a model to a bosspoll to take yourself down to 10 models would be worth it, given the right combat details. Hmm.
> 
> The leadership-related tricks are certainly more complex these days than they were in 3rd.


Except you cant do that- if you have 11 models you are fearless and so are taking no retreat wounds no a Ld test... the boss pole is only used to re-roll a Ld test so you can never use it on a unit of orks that is 11 models or more.


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