# Jez Learns - Oldest Army Books



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

I know GW don't pay heed to the lists that most need updating, preferring (as I would to - not slating this aspect of their business strategy) to go with the profit.

Which of the Fantasy army books are the oldest and in most need of a renewal?

Looking at 40k, its clear Dark Eldar are the "old timers" - who holds the title in fantasy?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Chaos Dwarves. Then, to a lesser extent, Dogs of War.

Skaven are in need of an over haul, but they're getting one.

Beasts of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms, and Bretonnians could do with being brought into line.

Wood Elves are still very competitive if played right - these are more like Dark Eldar than Dark Elves (no brainer tactics - sit back, shoot, and counter with Cold Ones/Hydra/Lords on Beasts, or soften up with Reapers and Dark Riders, Charge with Cold Ones and Hydra), but aren't a weak army, despite being elves and their armour being relegated to wood on trees.

So while they're more or less equal still, Chaos Dwarves and Dogs of War (they don't have army books yet, but the OZ games workshop site has links to PDF downloads from Ravening Hordes) are the oldest and need the most work.

But Dwarves, Bretonnians and Ogre Kingdoms have got to be somewhere in the pipeline.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Vaz is right but of all the armies covered however only the Ogre Kingdoms really stuggle to be competative over all (I know that there is a tourney list floating all over the net that works but if you change any aspect of the list it quickly becomes crap and as it only really contains about a 5th of the available units it gets dull really quickly) especially if you take out the dogs of war and Chaos Dwarves who have been neglected so long and really go against the GW policy towards unit cross over between army books.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

The thing with Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War is they are unpopular with the designers. There are vague rumours now and then that Chaos Dwarfs will be brought back in to the fold of armies loved and cared for by GW, but to be honest a lot of these sound like wishful thinking rather than substansive rumours. Though there have been a few GW comments along the lines of "we will develop them when we have time, and resources". Though that sounds like a fob to the fans rather than a genuine plan to me.

Dogs of War are unfortunately singled out for the chop according to hints and comments from the current designers. They are the epitome of an army that is a composite of other forces, something that GWs current design team is very much against, hence the separation of daemons and CSM in 40k.

The armybook rollover in Fantasy is actually a lot more up to date than 40k, mainly I think because the releases have been spaced properly so there has been plenty of time to get new books out. The books that Vaz mentions are all books that were released at the very end of the 6th edition, so are nowhere near as out of date as Dark Eldar or Space Wolves in 40k.

The ones that badly need doing are Skaven (the list is too far out of sync), BoC (the whole range needs redoing) and Ogres (they are broken). Wood Elves, Brets and Dwarfs are all old lists but can still hold their own easily enough. It may be a little biased, but O&G stand out as an army in need of work, they were made in the 'nerf' era and are badly lacking as a competative army compared to the rest (other than Ogres).


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I thought Ogres were fairly competative? Small-units-of-3 Bulls-Spam is effective I was told.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Chaos Dwarves are also suffering from the same Issue that Dogged the Wood Elves and why it took 10yrs for their update, and now in 40K with Dark Eldar. 
The entire range needs to re-thought and re-designed. I haven't read it but talk is Gav Thorpes novel with Chaos Dwarves in it opened up some interesting ideas, but regardless if they return (and I really hope they do) it'll be another Wood Elf book. So I'm reckoning a few years yet.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Chaos Dwarves are (maybe) the oldest army there is out there atm. It still lives on the short list dex that was released with 6th ed shitloads of years ago. They do, just like Dogs of War relie on mixed armies, in this case Orks and Goblins in the army. The Goblins are Hobgoblins so that might work(thinking one race one book like) but the Orcs are propper Orcs. It was even the Chapos Dwarves that "created" the Black Orcs in the first place, then ofc some ran away and they spred...

Both Skavens and Beasts of Chaos are noted and under design, so they'll come fairly soon. OK is, like said, really needing a revamp but thanks to Ogres selling bad, and each army consisting of so few models they'll never be a huge profit. You can easily make a standard 2k army out of 8 regimental boxes and some green stuff This will ofc give them a new armybook roughly 2015 or so:cray:

Brets could do with a new book indeed Vaz. The 5 models wide rank rule has actually boosted them beyond what was intended with their Lance-Formation, it was designed when you needed 4 models wide for ranks, now its silly good 
Tomb Kings could also do with a new Book, this army is as rare as Chaos Dreadnoughts in CSM lists, and thats saying quite alot. It doesnt need awfully lots of work, just something to stop it from drowning in its own dust:laugh:

Dwarves was just remade prior to 7th ed's release, but made for it. Empire and O&G was the 2 first just after so all these 3 will be a while untill the next time, actually when thinking of it most likely around 8th ed. Those 3 have since 5th been the 3 first released armybooks around each new edition. Wood Elves were the "WHFB Dark Eldars" that waited some 10 years on their current list, now it is however very characterfull and will probably not be shunned for an uppdate when it feels needed like Chaos Dwarves:grin:


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