# 1000 sons....no wait....999 and falling fast.



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I just read the ebook release for Ahriman:Exile and it brought back to mind a question that I've had ever since A Thousand Sons. Namely, how many honest to Tzeentch Sons are actually alive? 

At the end of A Thousand Sons we see that around 1000 (what an odd coincidence...) are transported to the Planet of Sorcerers and survive. Then the rampant mutation begins. This makes Ahriman use his Rubric which is supposed to have turned the majority of the legion into Rubricae and enhanced only those with a good deal of psychic power. I am fuzzy on if the thousand sons fought on Terra pre or post Rubric but in either case that should have further cut back on their numbers. 

Yet in this new book there are at least 6 and as many as 44 Thousand Sons sorcerers on a SINGLE SHIP. This is after that battle of Terra and a lot of time has passed and yet here is, potentially, almost a twentieth of a their legions sorcerers (not to mention Rubricae) gathered together. Are they still recruiting and training others to be Thousand Sons? I've never heard one way or another. Follow up to that question, if they are then are these newcomers also bound by the Rubric (aka the weak get immolated into dust inside their armor)?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Amon had been working to gather a lot of the remnants of the legion, so the massive gathering at the Planet of the Sorcerers was truly exceptional.



After all his stated goal was to break the Rubric and let the legion finally die from the unlife Ahriman had forced on the majority of his once brethren.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh I understand that but even so, how many could really be left? The Rubric turned most of the Sons into Rubricae. So let's say that was about 1 in ten that remained alive. Then we can add onto that the fact that the legion was at 1000ish just after the flight to the Planet of Sorcerers. If the Rubric happened either post or pre battle of terra then the sorcerers would still have suffered casualties. Ahriman has been in flight for perhaps centuries and so more attrition would have taken hold. I am just wondering (given the losses that the Thousand sons suffered at the planet of sorcerers to mutation, to the rubric, to the battle of terra, to the battle of the fang, and to centuries of war) how are there any left AT ALL. Is there any mention of them actively trying to replace their losses? Do they simply induct sorcerers that seem promising? The way it's shaping up Ahriman might just be the only one left in the 40k universe that was an actual son of Magnus.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

1k sons weren't at the battle of terra... neither were the space wolves: Prospero happened too late to allow them to get back in time to fight for Terra (and Magnus's loyalty is still transitional). It was part of Horus's scheme to remove both legions from the immediate battleline and hope that they completely massacred each other in the process.

As for exact numbers of 1k sons, its hard to know. All of them were psykers and we're never told how many were turned into rubrics. We also don't know if there were ships worth of marines that missed the fighting on Prospero (delayed by the warp, cut off from communications or whatever else black library staff might think up to find more of them). Finally, I keep hearing rumours about 1k sons recruiment but I'm yet to see anything in a novel about it... if its possible to create new rubrics (I would be surprised if it isn't) then its all moot anyway.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> 1k sons weren't at the battle of terra... neither were the space wolves: Prospero happened too late to allow them to get back in time to fight for Terra (and Magnus's loyalty is still transitional). It was part of Horus's scheme to remove both legions from the immediate battleline and hope that they completely massacred each other in the process.
> 
> As for exact numbers of 1k sons, its hard to know. All of them were psykers and we're never told how many were turned into rubrics. We also don't know if there were ships worth of marines that missed the fighting on Prospero (delayed by the warp, cut off from communications or whatever else black library staff might think up to find more of them). Finally, I keep hearing rumours about 1k sons recruiment but I'm yet to see anything in a novel about it... if its possible to create new rubrics (I would be surprised if it isn't) then its all moot anyway.



That cant be right, the thousand sons took part in the siege of terra. Magnus declaring for horus before the siege. Remember, the Age of Darkness period lasts seven years. A lot can happen there.

If you want non lexicanum proof, Visions of Death, page 18, shows Magnus contacting Horus and declaring for him, and saying his forces are ready to march on the solar system.


Edit: Forgot this character, Khrove, whom featured in a quite recent story. Notable for being a thousand sons sorcerer not from the original legion.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khrove


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

khrove sounds like he should be a khornate


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

kavyanshrike said:


> khrove sounds like he should be a khornate


Eh, read the story, he is quite a schemer and a powerful sorcrerer. Understandably so as he was trained by Ahriman himself. It is no suprise that the schemer hoodwinkled all of them and got the spirit stones.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think the ones still "alive" have the progenoid gland, and could produce geneseed for further 1000 sons. As long as they were psykers in the first place, it would work. And I'm not entirely sure that if a psyker were to put on power armor of a Rubric marine, he would not be dusted and the armor re-imbued. No fluff support, other than Lucius the Eternal does it kinda that way, as do Phoenix Lords.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The sons at the Siege were concerned with casting spells at the walls and opening gateways to the warp, there is no real indication that they took part in any direct fighting

The sons are well known for raiding psykers from cults, but its always been a mystery how they become marines. Ahrimans prodigal ons also includes renegades librarians from marine chapters 

That said you have the most talented group of psykers in the galaxy, is it hard to believe that they use sorcery to artifically create implants?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

At least in the older codexes it mentions that the 1k sons gene seeds are to mutated and that they recruit some of the sorcerers from warbands/ legions. In one of the SW books it showed that the ruberic marines are basically immortal. If their physical body is destroy all they need is a human sacrifice or armor and a sorcerer that knows the ritual to bring them back to the physical world, taking shelter in tzeentches realm.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

locustgate said:


> At least in the older codexes it mentions that the 1k sons gene seeds are to mutated and that they recruit some of the sorcerers from warbands/ legions. In one of the SW books it showed that the ruberic marines are basically immortal. If their physical body is destroy all they need is a human sacrifice or armor and a sorcerer that knows the ritual to bring them back to the physical world, taking shelter in tzeentches realm.


The ragnar blackmane books in particular showed how slain rubric marines was recreated. Though his nemesis Madox seemed to be a way more cognizant and powerful version of a Rubricae marine, seemingly immortal and able to return from death. His armor containing nothing when slain.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

Also, after battle of the Fang,their number is...hmmmmm.... one,two,three.....TEN!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I wouldn't put too much stock in the earlier fluff. 

We don't know what proportion of the TSons were turned into Rubrics (could be 9 out of 10, 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10). All we know is that a large majority became Rubrics. 

Where does it say that the TSons are no longer able to induct recruits with TSons geneseed?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock in the earlier fluff.
> 
> We don't know what proportion of the TSons were turned into Rubrics (could be 9 out of 10, 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10). All we know is that a large majority became Rubrics.
> 
> Where does it say that the TSons are no longer able to induct recruits with TSons geneseed?



Madox features heavilly in the 2 last Ragnar novels, which is back from 2004-5. So I wouldnt exactly call them outdated.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> 1k sons weren't at the battle of terra...


They actually were, though in what capacity is unknown.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Its a tricky thing. I would say that the possibility is that many rubric marines have been killed off. I would say there might be 900 left. Apparently they can reborn inside their armor by a powerful Thousand Son Pysker. I assume that means the armor is not destroyed beyond reckoning and so forth. I also heard they have means to convert others into rubric marines. That might be another indicator for there numbers not falling too fast. Yet I haven't seen any of these facts except by those who have said they are in white dwarf articles.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

Battle of the Fang has, IIRC, an instance of Rubric Marines being created. Either way, it feels like a very safe assumption to say that TS sorcerers can pass on their gene-seed to other powerful psykers. And Magnus is still around, albeit a daemon- I doubt that he still has gene-seed, but who knows, given that this is Chaos we're talking about?

If the TS never recruited after Prospero, yes, there'd be very few of them left. Same for any other Traitor Legion. But we know Chaos Marines in general recruit, we've had instances of Rubrics being created/ressurected, and we've had sorcerers being inducted into the Legion somehow; I think that's enough proof.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well as I understand it, there were 90,000 around prior to Prospero (ATS is outdated and they are not only 10,000). After Prospero it says around a 10th remained on Planet of Sorcerors, meaning 10,000. I would say at least 6/10 were turned into Rubricae.

I would imagine Rubricae are immortal, both their gift and curse. They can be re-summoned into empty suits.

And as can be seen in BftA and Rebirth, not all Thousand Sons were present at that battle. Others might have survived offworld and like that. And I wouldn't think they would stop recruiting, it just doesn't happen too often.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> (ATS is outdated and they are not only 10,000)


Which source has retconned A Thousand Sons? The TSons have always been described as one of the smallest legions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Which source has retconned A Thousand Sons? The TSons have always been described as one of the smallest legions.


The Heresy novels upto and including _A Thousand Sons_ were using the smaller Legion size averge (10k) as a template. Subsequently the average Legion size was clarified to be 100k. However, in regards to the Thousand Sons it isn't easily rectified because one of the central themes in _A Thousand Sons_ was the lack of coincidence as to why they were called the Thousand Sons in the first place - because there only was a thousand to be begin with and a thousand at the end (post-Prospero).


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Not entirely sure how canon this is but in one of the Space Wolves books the thousand sons begin summoning many of their slain warriors back from the warp, including the infamous Madox. Perhaps this has happened before and elsewhere? That might explain the extra numbers of Sons


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well it could also mean there were only 1000 left on the planet, not in total galaxy-wide.


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## Lepaca (Oct 19, 2011)

The TSons are definately recruiting new sorcerors (see The Masters, Bidding) and I don't think that it is too far fetched too believe that they can either create new Rubrics or resummon old ones.

That said we have to keep in mind GW's "40k is a setting not a universe, therefore it does not need to be functional"-policy (eventhough it is pretty unsatisfying).


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

I will repeat this - there are 10 000 sons PRESENT when prospero burned...
Also there is 4th fellowship (min 1000) sent away by Magnus, but they were attacked by WE when they returned to Prospero seeking answers.....

So minimum 11000 or 12000 (if you count rumor that Magnus sent some of his sons away)

1000 fled alive from Prospero + add a rubric thingy + Fang battle = ?????

but thing is - they can recruit perspective sorcerers from other warbands, so who knows


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