# Carthay?!



## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

I think it would be really good if gamesworkshop brought out Carthay as an army. The army of the dragin empire would be really cool and the models would be most probably fantastic. Anyone agree?


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

Crimson Death said:


> I think it would be really good if gamesworkshop brought out Carthay as an army. The army of the dragin empire would be really cool and the models would be most probably fantastic. Anyone agree?


It's spelled _Cathay_.

I also think it would be cool but I doubt GW will be bringing a new fantasy army out especially with the release of daemons.


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

i think they said a while back they had no intention of doing Cathay for the foreseeable in view of the existing number of human armies, but they didn't rule it out as a possible at any point


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

Drax said:


> i think they said a while back they had no intention of doing Cathay for the foreseeable in view of the existing number of human armies, but they didn't rule it out as a possible at any point


So they don't want to add to the massive number of...two?


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

im just relaying what i remember mate.

but then you could count DoW as their troops are mainly human.

but there are a lot more human races in the old world and i think their point was where do they draw the line before most armies have a human element


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

i have long considered coverting an army to be of Cathay or Ind.


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

yeah but cathay covers a lot of the old world, almost half if I remember. and who the heck collects dogs of war as an army? And from what i've read Cathay isn't just human. And considering they have already made some history for them and put them on the map they may as well make an army for them.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

They should do Kislev again, then the Border Princes, and then Estalia and Tilea. I mean, come on, these places are bang in the middle of the action.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

They've been on the map for years, as have Ind, Araby and Nippon, apart from a few odd figures years ago when Citadel where making figs as much for other games as their own, they haven't even looked at it. Which is a shame as I'd love them to look at it, but I just don't see it happening, sadly.

On a side not they did once have a sort of shared rules written for them once, a joint Cathay, Nippon army, although it seemed to be more towards Nippon as Samurai and Ninja where the main troops, written back in the original Dogs of War book in 91-92. Although I'm pretty confident thats the only place they have ever had rules by GW.

Oh and Estalia, Tilea and Kislev have been pretty much deemed Dogs of War fodder, not detailed enough to warrent their own armies, ever.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> I think it would be really good if gamesworkshop brought out Carthay as an army


there isn`t any point , because whats the point in releasing an entire book and set off models when any half decent gamer could come up with enough fluff and conversions to it anyway.



> They should do Kislev again, then the Border Princes, and then Estalia and Tilea. I mean, come on, these places are bang in the middle of the action.


again gw arnt going to spend alot of money doing all these seperate armies when you could do them yourself and besides what would the border princes be like? shitty infantry and lots of crossbowman, it may as well be included into the empire book if its not already. HOWEVER there is alot of potential in kislev though

but my local gw is so crammed up with armies that even the splitting up of chaos is going to make it very packed.


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

kislev are out you can get the minitures and army book off gw website


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

But the point is nobody has any idea what cathay infantry looks like or fights like so how can you convert an ary for them. Also if you make up rules for them youself whats the odds that your ever going to get to use them coz people will argue that its not fair or official. Anyway the bringing out of somethin huge in the old world like cathay may be whats needed to get more people collecting fantacy and not congrigateing around drawfs. And the golds and colours and huge swords and crap that cathay are rumoured to have may attract younger players (like LOTR players or 40k, take no offence anyone who is an older 40k/LOTR players but I mainly see younger players playing them) to play fantacy.


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I always planned to use the empire rules for the most all round human approach and actually there is a lot written as to what the sun army looks like, but basically oriental. Its a very possible project but it will take a lot of converting.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

Ancient has it right. Instead of hopelessly wishing for more minority armies for a minority game for a minority hobby in the midst of a serious economic downturn, adapt the rules that are already there. The crossover of empire rules and china is a snug fit. After all, the chinese had gunpowder weapons, rockets, spearmen, cavalry coming out of their ears. A converted hellstorm rocket battery would be a great centrepiece for a themed Cathayan force. GW must be seriously shitting themselves about the current state of retail, and the rising food and energy prices, but thats another topic.


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

I agree. Instead of moaning continuously perhaps people should take the lead like this guy.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Druchii in Space said:


> ...
> 
> On a side not they did once have a sort of shared rules written for them once, a joint Cathay, Nippon army, although it seemed to be more towards Nippon as Samurai and Ninja where the main troops, written back in the original Dogs of War book in 91-92. Although I'm pretty confident thats the only place they have ever had rules by GW...


I have extensive rules for Nippon and Cathay armies, from 2nd Ed... back when the Empire and Bretonnia were just "Northern Old World" and Estalia and Tilea were "Old World City-States". Only Tilean and Estalian armies had guns in those days, the Northern part of the Old World wasn't advanced enough for black powder weaponry.

I think Ancient and Panda are right - there are loads of troop types in the Empire list that can have an "oriental" equivalent. Shields may be a problem, and there's no provision for mounted Samurai with longbows, but you can get a lot of equivalents. 

The one thing that's missing from the old list is the inclusion of Vimto Monks, servants of the Great Orange Simca. Basically your archetypal Chinese martial-arts Bulletproof Monk-style unarmed combat dudes. Can't _quite_ see how to replicate that in an Empire list...

But as a project, either Empire or Bretonnia could provide interesting opportunities if you're prepared to think sideways. Hell, even Warriors of Chaos could provide the basis for a list if you think about it...

:lateral-thinking cyclops:


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Shields may be a problem


japanease samurai armies did include shields, although they were more like pavises used by medievil european crossbowmen. made out of bamboo they protected weaker infantry, like mercenaries / men - at - arms, where as samurai could afford proper armour...


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

after some more thinking dark elves could provide a good basis for rules also. China used all manner of crossbow stlye archery, you still have light and heavy cavalry. I dont see a problem with cold ones as real world china has some big lizards every reason for cathay to have hugh ones. Also assasins fit the unarmed martial art masters pretty well. Of course this sacrifices black powder weapons a little but a bolt thrower rules could be used for a rocket battery of sorts.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Of course this sacrifices black powder weapons a little but a bolt thrower rules could be used for a rocket battery of sorts.


no need at all, the chinese used many different types of bolt thrower infact some are _very similar_ to the druchii ones. dark elf crossbows are practically the same and weapons like the draich derive from the chinese weapon changdao which technically is a mongol weapon or if you want to be really technical it is a turk sword from the 8th century

however no race with the exception of lizardmen, tomb kings and the civilisations of the old world have any major historical influences, races like dwarves, and elves are manely games workshops creations with some references to the works of tolkein.

sorry for going abit of subject :biggrin:

yet a customised empire army would be a better option if you wanted to represent a medievil chinese army, with large blocks of spearmen, greatswords, rocket batteries, crossbowmen, mortars, knights, handgunners etc etc and bretonnia for a japanese samurai force, with knights, men - at - arms, traction catapults ( like ordinary trebuchet but fired by the strength of pullers not by counterweight i.e. the big rock on the end )


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> I have extensive rules for Nippon and Cathay armies, from 2nd Ed... back when the Empire and Bretonnia were just "Northern Old World" and Estalia and Tilea were "Old World City-States". Only Tilean and Estalian armies had guns in those days, the Northern part of the Old World wasn't advanced enough for black powder weaponry.



Ah sweet, I missed out on 2nd, came in at 88, so never saw any of that, also I'm having vague memories of back when I owned the Dogs of War book, some 17-18yrs ago. Tbh I can only remember there was Ninja and Samurai in it, and every army seemed to have a war altar. :biggrin:


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

i was talking to a GW guy about this at my local store...he said if they _did_ make a Cathay army, it would play a lot like, if not completely identical to, the empire.
so ya, just slap some samurai armor on greatswords and you've got a cathay army lol!


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

I love the idea of using the Dark Elf list though, the idea of having lizard-riding samurai or their equivalent is an excellent one. I was giving consideration to how different creatures from Chinese and Japanese legends could be used, but all I came up with was the idea of using Night Goblin archers as Halflings in and Empire list (can you still take Halflings in an Empire list? Not played Empire for years...) and painting them orange, to represent Bakemono.

Anyroadup; my current plan is to mock up a "Cathayan" army list from the Warriors of Chaos list, with the addition of the Heroes of Skeggi from the Lustrian campaign a few years ago, just because samurai cold-one riders is too good an image to pass up. It'll make as much sense as an Empire or Bretonnian list compared to European history and mythology, but... meh. Who cares?

rientalizing cyclops:


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

the point i was trying to make is kislev has already been done you can get the army book off gw and the minitures off the online store and anyway how can one small city have more potentual the an empire that covers nearly a third of the old world. And If everyone made it all up it would all be really rubbish and shabby. Yeah you could make the models and the fluff but how do you know what cathay troops look like, fight like and what sort of wepons they prefer. And as to makeing up history for them, good luck to you!

And from what I can gather Cathay wouldn't play like the empire as empire uses lots of blocks of alright troops backed up by artillery and knights. I think cathay would by more like small blocks of elite troops with some average infantry with little shooting and mabie cavelry archers. Also I think they'd have some skurmishers and assassins. Maybe even war elephants.

Ancient Tiel' a fier - edit - Please use the edit button instead of double posting, thanks.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Cathay is based on historical China, Nippon is based on historical Japan, Ind on the historical Indian states.

There were rules and minis for Cathay and Nippon in the early editions of Warhammer, and there are occassional references now that give clues - such as the swords ogres get from trading with Cathay - that point to those ideas still being current. So, basically, we're looking at medieval China (no elephants, I'm afraid).

:historical cyclops:


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

Looking at the wonderful source of wikipedia, I found out some quite interesting facts about the army of Song China.

It talks of crossbows and handgunners (perhaps not in the same style as the German based Empire but they were still firearms). You could feasibly use an Empire list according to this source.

Of course we could always follow Medieval 2 and put cannons on elephants. How cool a steam tank conversion would that be?!?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

That would be cool. An armoured elephant with a cannon on would be quite an amazing sight to behold.

It's that kind of more fantastical (or just unusual) elements that would be a problem though - in terms of simple troop types, Empire and Bretonnia are pretty good. There's archers with no or light armour, heavily armoured knights on horse or foot, light cav, spearmen, pikemen, riflemen, bolt-throwers, catapults and rocket batteries... all of these have direct parallels with historical troop-types in China or Japan.

Casting the net a bit wider, orcs can stand in for hobgoblins (are there still hobgoblins in the Chaos Dwarf army list?), and night goblins and dwarves can be themselves (maybe only dwarf slayers to represent their lesser technology?) and can maybe be included (maybe each as a 0-1, Rare selection?).

But Ninja and Shaolin monks are especially problematic - there doesn't seem any way of mocking up the rules for them except maybe using the Dark Elf assassin rules for Ninja. Can't see what you'd use for Kung-Fu Monks though...

Tricky this, innit?

ondering cyclops:


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

yeah I see what you mean but as cathay is basced on china and black powder originated from there mabie black powder wepons would be cheaper for cathay and combat troops more expencive? what'd you think to that?


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

I think GW base points cost on effectiveness. Cheap and armour piercing? I don't think that adds to balance at all. Tis nice and fluffy though.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I think black powder weapons might be common in Cathay than the Empire - not necessarily cheaper (in points terms I presume you mean). It still takes the same technology to produce them, with the same risks, and it still takes the same training. It's easier to make a knife and put it on the end of a stick, give it to a farmer and say "Spear: poke things with it" than making a metal tube and a firing mechanism, attaching them to a plank, giving them to a farmer and saying "Gun: point it at things, then... oh, I forgot the musket balls. And the powder. Hang on..."

It probably wasn't until the Civil Wars in Britain, and the 30 Years War in Europe (let's say, from about 1650), that guns overtook more 'medieval' weapons. Even the Empire isn't that far advanced in time - I figure it's about 1500 or thereabouts. Brettonia is more like 1200-1300 I reckon. But gunpowder itself wasn't invented until about 700AD or thereabouts, IIRC. So there's an awful lot of Chinese history before that, and even afterwards it was a long time before guns predominated.

So I don't think at any time that WHFB 'mocks up' hand weapons would ever be replaced completely or even enough to invert the relationship... I mean look at 40k; that's supposed to be 38,000 years in our future, but people are _still_ running towards each other trying to bash each other with (high-tech) sticks :wink:

The other part of the equation is that the Chinese population (so maybe the Cathayan too?) is so large that there would likely be shed-loads of low-grade meatgrinder troops.

I think the trick for either a Cathayan or Nipponese army would be finding the right balance between peasant archers or spearmen, professional warlord cavalry, extreme war machines and elite hand-to-hand specialists - with fantastical units like dwarves, goblins, hobgoblins and lizard-riding knights...

:still pondering cyclops:


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Well said red orc, when i have considered such an army it has always included the notion of say 30 spearmen as citizen militia, then units like great swords nearer the 15 mark, proffesional soldiers. The Empire list is very adaptable and looking at handgunners, they dont need to be cheaper but for fluff you could take more, though i think i would stay relatively clear and take the archer approach instead.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

From what everyone's been saying it seems catay and nippon should be full of elites, with cheap and few normal men. plus absolutely destroying CC models. Sounds just like Dark elves to me. sure their greatswords are already curved to resemble dai-katana. also having killing blow puts them closer, they have halberd wielding king's guard, they have well trained cheap core units, fast archer cavalry and assassins. the only thing now is to get the models.


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

Yeah that would be good for converting what I would like to see is what actualy cathay models look like (if they were made) the army book, and the proper history for cathay


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

Crimson Death said:


> Yeah that would be good for converting what I would like to see is what actualy cathay models look like (if they were made) the army book, and the proper history for cathay


Unfortunately, not gonna happen mate.


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