# Help me make CSM competitive...



## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

You see, I like CSM, they were my first army but honestly i do not find them competitive at all....i might be wrong and if i am i would like you to point me in the right direction...

I love nurgle so i have a lot of plague marine, but they are expensive in points so every games i play, i am always a though opponnent but i always end yp losing simply because i am not fast enough or i am outnumbered....add to that the fact that chaos has not cool tricks like plenty of other armies....and don't even get me started on that challenge stupid rule...god that was stupid...

Lately i have been trying to add daemon allies but i must be too new at this, they have not helped a lot, in fact not at all...

I have bought 20 plague bearers a herald of nurgle and 10 flesh hounds and 3 nurgle drones.....they mostly ended up being really easy kills for my opponent...the. Only ones that showed promisses were flesh hounds....

My meta is hyper competitive and i hate not being able to compete...i can easily do it with my IG but to be honest, i would love to play something different....and even though the helldrake is awesome, it is not enough....

Help me make chaos competitive no matter if it is with allies or not.....

I am even considering playing daemon with csm allies....need help!


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

What is your standard CSM list you run? What point levels do you play? What do you typically see at your store playing against you.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

I play often against Necrons, DE allied with Eldar, orks....

I mostly play at 1750 or 1850....

I have tried playing list like the following

Typhus
20 zombies
Squads of plague marines
Squads of havocs with autocannons
Sometimes obliterators
One helldrake
Tried mauler fiends...

I am running out of options


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I wouldn't run typhus, too many points in his model personally - and unless you wanted to go almost purely zombie for troops, not super effective ive found.

Have you tried CSM squads with MoN? in general the CSM + Mark option is just as effective, sometimes better, than the Cult unit.

do you go against Mech units (transports) where it is roughly the same as 5th? I would suggest bikers, excellent units to get close to vehicles quickly, along with Maulerfiends.

Do you see flyers; Do you use a quad gun? if no get one (if part 1 applies).

have you tried spawn yet? 

----

In general most 6th ed codexs are "underpowered" in comparison to the 5th ed ones.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

Fallen said:


> I wouldn't run typhus, too many points in his model personally - and unless you wanted to go almost purely zombie for troops, not super effective ive found.
> 
> Have you tried CSM squads with MoN? in general the CSM + Mark option is just as effective, sometimes better, than the Cult unit.
> 
> ...


I agree about typhus being overcost....

I have not tried normal marine with the MoN because they do not have feel no pain....

Lately i have been playing a lot against necron and DE..and tonight the new Eldar....

The new eldar were a disaster, they are fast and they shoot like crazy with their psychic powers....

I have not tried bikes yet, i have tried spawn in squads of 4 but i was not impressed at all..against shooting armies, their lack of saves can be devastating....

I am running a helldrake and an aeigis line with quad guns....

Necrons i can handle apart from wraights...they kick my ass big time....DE and Eldar are far more mobile than me...i would probably need at least wo helldrakes....

I don't know...i feel like i am always fighting an uphill battle..and it takes the fun out of the game....


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

I think one of your problems might be that you dont have many redundancies in your list, try playing with 2 heldrakes or 2 vindicators, it could also be your playstyle..either way CSM are far from weak


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

I have to admit that having two helldrakes might help but it is not an answer to everything...i would be curious to see some of your competitive lists...having played IG for so long my playstyle might be too aggressive with my CSM, i have noticed that i often send my troops to die by being over aggressive...

So please show me some of your competitive build that could destroy Necrons and other Xenos...

Tks guys


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

my "competitive build" is CSM with guard allies @ 2k, so it doesn't really mesh well with your point level...

but my CSM part of the force is 

HQ
Lucius
Sorcerer - ML3, spell familiar (force maul)

Troops
CSM - 2 plasma, MB, rhino
NMs - 6, CCW, MB, DS, PW(Sword), rhino
Cultists

Elite
Helbrute

FA
Bikes (when i dont ally) - 2 melta guns/plasma guns.
Heldrake - baleflamer

HS
Maulerfiend
Havocs - 4 autocannons
Havocs - 4 autocannons (with no allies)

Fort:
ADL w/QG.

cant remember what the points are off the top of my head.

----

this fits my play style (I like to go second, because with any too aggressive moves by my opponent i can effectively destroy it.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Have you tried any of the deathstar HQs?

Try adding a Lord with MoK and Axe of Blind Fury to the Spawn unit. Fast, deadly, resilient. Give the Spawn MoN.

A Lord on bike with MoN and a Powerfist/Lightning Claw in a unit of Nurgle bikes fairs very well.

Any of these two units will wreak havoc on the enemey and sustain a bit of firepower.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You can't join a Khorne Lord to a Nurgle unit 

Needs more Heldrake. 2 with Baleflamers, one with Hades as anti-flyer (because even at bs3, 4 Missile Launchers into rear armour is pretty deadly). I'd roll with a Nurgle Lord on Bike with BBoS, with the Spawn with MoN, then small units of Plague Marines in Troops in Rhinos.

Heldrakes will deal with Orks and Dark Eldar pretty much single-handedly (Vector Strikes and Baleflamers do a shitload of damage to anything they can field). I'd run your Obliterators as three units of 1 with Mark of Nurgle.

Wraiths are easy to deal with - you just spam Bolters until they die (they're only as tough as 2 Marines against small arms i.e. not very tough at all), or hit them with high strength weapons (I think this is the one situation that I'd recommend a Forgefiend with Ectoplasma).

I think I'd try something along these lines:

Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, and Power Weapon
Chaos Sorceror with Mark of Slaanesh
10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
5 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren in a Rhino
5 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters and Doom Siren in a Rhino
Heldrake with Baleflamer
Heldrake with Baleflamer
Heldrake with Hades Autocannon
Obliterator with Mark of Nurgle
Obliterator with Mark of Nurgle
Obliterator with Mark of Nurgle
Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun

Might need to drop something at your points value - if so, lose an Obliterator and if you need even more points, the 5-man units, and if you've got points spare get Havoc Launchers for the Rhinos and buff the 5-man squads. 

Midnight


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Needs more Heldrake. 2 with Baleflamers, one with Hades as anti-flyer (because even at bs3, 4 Missile Launchers into rear armour is pretty deadly). I'd roll with a Nurgle Lord on Bike with BBoS, with the Spawn with MoN, then small units of Plague Marines in Troops in Rhinos.


Could you please explain why you would choose BBoS over other more powerful CC weapons? Also, running him with spawn, seems to be a good protection but he cannot avoid challenges, wouldn't that be a problem for the effectiveness of the unit? 

Running three heldrake might make people hate me a little, i might go with two just to smooth things a little bit and i could always have a little IG allies to add a Vendetta....

any of you running any Daemon princes???

I often face deathstar units and do not seem to be able to offer a good response, yesterday i tried adding 10 flesh hounds with Karanak and i must say they hit like a ton of brick but it could be much stronger with a little bit more than 10..probably around 15 would do good....

Would adding a Greater daemon be a good thing?


MidnightSun said:


> Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, and Power Weapon
> Chaos Sorceror with Mark of Slaanesh
> 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
> 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
> ...



Not too sure if i see the potential of your lords, could you explain how you would use them?

Also i have been meaning to field Noise marines, i do not own any but my friend will let me proxy them before buying them...i must admit that with their salvo rule and ignoring cover, they seem to kick ass big time....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

madcore said:


> Could you please explain why you would choose BBoS over other more powerful CC weapons? Also, running him with spawn, seems to be a good protection but he cannot avoid challenges, wouldn't that be a problem for the effectiveness of the unit?


Burning Brand has a 20" range, so you can start killing earlier. It can usually hit 4 or 5 models, which is 4 or 5 auto-hits with a Power Weapon, more than you'll get in two rounds with said Power Weapon. It allows you to dig stuff like Concealed Eldar or Plaguebearers out of cover. Pretty much, it lets you kill more stuff earlier.



madcore said:


> Running three heldrake might make people hate me a little, i might go with two just to smooth things a little bit and i could always have a little IG allies to add a Vendetta....


Who cares? Run them for a few weeks, show them your strength, then tone it down when you start winning. They can get their own counters. Change the meta to suit you (Chaos have excellent flyers but not particularly good anything else - make everyone else have to respond to your excellent flyers, not your crappy other stuff).



madcore said:


> any of you running any Daemon princes???


No. They're overpriced for a T5 model without Eternal Warrior and no way of getting Toughness 6. If you really want one, make it a Daemon of Nurgle with The Black Mace, Power Armour and Wings. Even then, just roll with a Lord and Sorceror.



madcore said:


> I often face deathstar units and do not seem to be able to offer a good response, yesterday i tried adding 10 flesh hounds with Karanak and i must say they hit like a ton of brick but it could be much stronger with a little bit more than 10..probably around 15 would do good....


Deathstars? Say Heldrakes (they will absolutely annihilate any Deathstar that Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks or Tau can bring). 2+ save Deathstars, in case someone allies Paladins or TH/SS Terminators? Symphony of Pain + Sonic Blasters. Symphony is *really* nice against Deathstars as it multiplies your whole army.



madcore said:


> Would adding a Greater daemon be a good thing?


Maybe - I'm just starting Daemons myself, and the GDs do look incredibly brutal. However, as an Allied HQ, I'd give it a miss in favour of Tzeentch Heralds with Mastery 2, for Divination, because Divination is fucking fantastic.



madcore said:


> Not too sure if i see the potential of your lords, could you explain how you would use them?


Sit in the 5-man Doom Siren squad, disembark, kill a full squad of Marines every turn until they deal with you. Sorceror spams Slaanesh and hopes for Symphony of Pain



madcore said:


> Also i have been meaning to field Noise marines, i do not own any but my friend will let me proxy them before buying them...i must admit that with their salvo rule and ignoring cover, they seem to kick ass big time....


They do, especially if you're having trouble with hordes. Blastmasters are really nice, and if you're not moving you can kick out a horrendous amount of firepower, with Symphony active you'll kill most things (imagine Fire Warriors with Fearless, BS4, 3+ armour and Ignores Cover and you're almost close to a Noise Marine - you just need to add greatly increased survivability, combat prowess, and ability to take a good transport).

Midnight


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> make everyone else have to respond to your excellent flyers, not your crappy other stuff).


that one made me laugh...

Ok, now i have a lot of new stuff to try and two heldrakes to buy 

i was hoping to keep my nurgle theme, but with the success i have been experiencing might as well be try other gods... i can see the advantage of using slanesh or a mix with nurgle....there is no point in being though if you cannot hit back with a lot of punch....

tks man, rep to you


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

I just read the symphony of pain description and all i can say is ouch....

Combine that with a herald of tzentch with divination....double ouch....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

madcore said:


> I just read the symphony of pain description and all i can say is ouch....
> 
> Combine that with a herald of tzentch with divination....double ouch....


Exactly - I feel that Noise Marines benefit hugely from Divination, which Daemons provide. This makes your army very, _very_ shooty (for Chaos) while remaining resilient and reliable (the only roll you struggle with is Vector Strike and Psychic Tests - but with VS as a D3 and Psychic Tests on LD10 you're pretty reliable even then) - everything else has re-rolls or doesn't even roll in the first place with Torrent.

But yeah, the biggest thing here is adding more Heldrakes - they'll do so much it's unreal.

Midnight


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## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

I don't really play chaos but I thought I would add my two cents as my two best friends do but run really different lists.

One uses Guard allies with 2 helldrakes and a vendetta. This alone makes the list tough to beat as it uses 3 excellent fliers. Then he uses Huron as his HQ and almost always outflanks a squad of chaos space marines, with huron, in a rhino. Which is also very effective. Then he mainly uses cultists, a predator, and a lemun russ. It adds good long range shooting, plenty of scoring, vector strikes, the vendetta, and his quad gun take care of fliers, and the bale-flamers take care of 3+ models. He usually only suffers from Tyranids. This is at 1750 (he takes vets and some other weird stuff with IG that I don't quite understand as I don't play guard and never cared for them).

My other friend uses no fliers (as he hates the helldrake), rocks 3 squads of 7 plague marines with dual plasma in rhinos, has been taking a nurgle-biker lord with 3 man retinue with dual plasma, 3 oblits with mark of tzeentch, havoc squad with flakk, quad gun, cultists, and a tri-las predator. That is at 1750. He has decent answers for anti-flier, decent scoring, a tough HQ, and lots of anti-tank. I feel this list fits your nurgle theme and I hope it gives some food for thought.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

lockeF said:


> I don't really play chaos but I thought I would add my two cents as my two best friends do but run really different lists.
> 
> One uses Guard allies with 2 helldrakes and a vendetta. This alone makes the list tough to beat as it uses 3 excellent fliers. Then he uses Huron as his HQ and almost always outflanks a squad of chaos space marines, with huron, in a rhino. Which is also very effective. Then he mainly uses cultists, a predator, and a lemun russ. It adds good long range shooting, plenty of scoring, vector strikes, the vendetta, and his quad gun take care of fliers, and the bale-flamers take care of 3+ models. He usually only suffers from Tyranids. This is at 1750 (he takes vets and some other weird stuff with IG that I don't quite understand as I don't play guard and never cared for them).
> 
> My other friend uses no fliers (as he hates the helldrake), rocks 3 squads of 7 plague marines with dual plasma in rhinos, has been taking a nurgle-biker lord with 3 man retinue with dual plasma, 3 oblits with mark of tzeentch, havoc squad with flakk, quad gun, cultists, and a tri-las predator. That is at 1750. He has decent answers for anti-flier, decent scoring, a tough HQ, and lots of anti-tank. I feel this list fits your nurgle theme and I hope it gives some food for thought.


I have not yet tried CSM with IG allies which is stupid since i play guards since a few years...i have often considered using the psyker battle squad to help reduce the Ld of units in order to take advantage of the fear rule...the vendetta is an excellent flyer that cost only 130pts...

I have also considered using huron just for its outflank possibility....having helldrakes outflanking could help a lot...i really needs to mix my gods and not only rely on nurgle...plague marines are though a hell but they could be much more useful if mixed with lets say noise marines...

Cant wait for my new game, i have a lot of thinking to do or my new list....


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Can't give the drakes outflank, it's d3 infantry.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

scscofield said:


> Can't give the drakes outflank, it's d3 infantry.


You are right sir..sorry about that...i was just remembering the old times when i could outflank my vendettas...heldrake would have awesome doing this...


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I think everyone would rage quit if drakes got outflank also


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

its not like whatever side of the board changes what the drake DOES, only to WHOM it does it to.

and honestly besides the "hammer & anvil" deployment outflank could be limiting what is VS'd and flamed.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

There is no one way to make a competitive list as unit selection and your own usage of tactics invariably effects how effective the list is as a whole.

Personally I think the new CSM's work best when kept mobile and in large numbers. For 410 pts you can have 20 marines in rhinoe's with dirge casters and double melta, topped with a melta bombs. Also most people often forget rhino's can now more or less make a run move meaning turn 2 your guns will be in range of the enemy. 

Also instead of spawn try using a jugger lord in a huge unit of cultists. They are fearless,and will allow the lord to get where ever he wants safely while also shielding him from units that would just tear through regular marines/bikes due to a small model count (Ternimators versus 30 cultists with 2 attacks each, and a lord that kills 3-4 terminators a turn means you lose 40-70pts to the enemies 200pts when they charge you.)

Now this idea of making your list economical is key as stuff like MoN seem good at first, but often don't make a difference on the table either due to poison or plasma. Think redundancy, and resilience (What can go wrong will go wrong). For instance in my lists I have 30 marines in rhino's for under 700pts backed by a full assortment of ranged fire power and two heldrakes. In this target rich environment few opponents can stop my advance before it rolls through them.

Another tip is make sure you list can support each part of itself. For example if all your marines are on foot and 12" apart it is doubtful you will be able to respond to a large scale threat till after its chewed through 2-4 units.

Here is a example that resembles a list I play
Troops
10CSM CCW, Rhino+Dirge, MeltaX2, Melta bomb
10CSM CCW, Rhino+Dirge, MeltaX2, Melta bomb
10CSM Bolter, Rhino, PlasmaX2
15 Cultists Flamer

Heavy
havoksX7 Las cannonX3
HavoksX7 Flakk MissleX3
Forge fiend

Fast 
HelldrakeX2
BikesX7 FlamerX2, melta bomb

HQ
Jugger lord Blind axe, Sigil, Gift, Melta bomb
Sorc Brand, Force axe, Melta bomb, Bike, Mark of nurgle (T6)

Now individually these units are hardly as powerful as those others have suggested, but I have so many mobile units that hit like a brick wall that even a entire death guard army would be quickly overrun and torn apart by waves of incoming fire and ap3 flamers.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> There is no one way to make a competitive list as unit selection and your own usage of tactics invariably effects how effective the list is as a whole.


List-building wins games. Someone with 3 Heldrakes, no matter their 'playstyle' will beat someone of equal skill with no Heldrakes, or decently higher skill. I'm a lot, lot better than my friend at 40k, and if he plays Tyranids or Orks or Blood Angels I beat him, hands down. Heldrake? Changes the equation, we're roughly even. I don't think that's chance. Unit selection is not completely rigid, but it's not wide open (for example, you do not make competitive lists without Heldrakes in Fast Attack, and you do not take Thousand Sons or Daemon Princes).



LukeValantine said:


> Troops
> 10CSM CCW, Rhino+Dirge, MeltaX2, Melta bomb
> 10CSM CCW, Rhino+Dirge, MeltaX2, Melta bomb
> 10CSM Bolter, Rhino, PlasmaX2
> ...


I kind of like it, but there's a couple of things I'd change. Why the Flakk Missiles? Any Flyer you care about taking down shrugs off 3 Flakk Missiles and can take down the Havocs. Why the Bikes instead of another Heldrake? I get that it's a Biker retinue for the Sorceror, but since you're meched up anyway surely the Sorceror could just go in a Rhino with a squad? This frees up a lot of points. You're bringing mobile Melta squads in Troops and Melta Bombs everywhere that can have them - why do you need Lascannon too? Take both squads with 4x Reaper Autocannons and I think it'll work better as you'll have light tank-busting outside of Meteoric Descent and 2 Plasma Guns. Incidentally, I'd swap out the Forgefiend for one of these Autocannon squads as they're more accurate, have higher damage output, and more survivability (in cover, where they should be).

A solid base if you didn't want to go as dedicated as the all-Slaanesh list I posted though.

Midnight


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm not sure in which way you want to make CSM "Competitive". From what I garnered, If you just want them to bring the pain as it was you need to ask the following questions about your list:

Are you using named character HQ's?
Are you using MaulerFiends / Mutilators / Warp Talons / Hellbrutes?
Do you use unmarked marines?
Do you use Berzerkers, Noise Marines or T-sons?
Do you use cult troops exclusively?
Do you have shooty-terminators?
Do you only have 1 helldrake? 
Are you not using bikes? 

A yes to one or more of these questions means you need to go look at your list again, because it's not the most points-to-power efficient. Again it depends on your meta. I'm very lucky to have quite a wide-span of opponents in my area who run everything from Leaf-blower to Gaunt-spam, I probably have a Win/Lose % in the 60/40 range which i'm more than happy with because it's only quite rare do I not have an interesting / close game.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Also instead of spawn try using a jugger lord in a huge unit of cultists. They are fearless,and will allow the lord to get where ever he wants safely while also shielding him from units that would just tear through regular marines/bikes due to a small model count (Ternimators versus 30 cultists with 2 attacks each, and a lord that kills 3-4 terminators a turn means you lose 40-70pts to the enemies 200pts when they charge you.)


Don't you find that running your lord like this simply slows down your juggernaught...A good player could thin down effectively that blob and you lord will end up alone quite fast...




LukeValantine said:


> Now this idea of making your list economical is key as stuff like MoN seem good at first, but often don't make a difference on the table either due to poison or plasma. Think redundancy, and resilience (What can go wrong will go wrong). For instance in my lists I have 30 marines in rhino's for under 700pts backed by a full assortment of ranged fire power and two heldrakes. In this target rich environment few opponents can stop my advance before it rolls through them.


You are right about this one, DE and their poison weapon don't care much for my Death guards...having more units is always a good thing, i have learned that with my IG, now add a 3+ save and it is a lot better



LukeValantine said:


> Now individually these units are hardly as powerful as those others have suggested, but I have so many mobile units that hit like a brick wall that even a entire death guard army would be quickly overrun and torn apart by waves of incoming fire and ap3 flamers.


Another good point, I will strongly consider this in my next list. 



MidnightSun said:


> I kind of like it, but there's a couple of things I'd change. Why the Flakk Missiles? Any Flyer you care about taking down shrugs off 3 Flakk Missiles and can take down the Havocs. Why the Bikes instead of another Heldrake? I get that it's a Biker retinue for the Sorceror, but since you're meched up anyway surely the Sorceror could just go in a Rhino with a squad? This frees up a lot of points. You're bringing mobile Melta squads in Troops and Melta Bombs everywhere that can have them - why do you need Lascannon too? Take both squads with 4x Reaper Autocannons and I think it'll work better as you'll have light tank-busting outside of Meteoric Descent and 2 Plasma Guns. Incidentally, I'd swap out the Forgefiend for one of these Autocannon squads as they're more accurate, have higher damage output, and more survivability (in cover, where they should be).


loll...another good point, you can see that midnight love's his heldrakes  I already ordered two more 



Moonschwine said:


> Are you using named character HQ's? No, i did try typhus but found him quite weak, he can get smashed, the only good thing is zombies, they make good tarpit units
> 
> Are you using MaulerFiends / Mutilators / Warp Talons / Hellbrutes?


I have tried maulerfiends, i think they are cool because they are really fast, but one their own, they die really fast too. That being said, if you can manange to have them pop an expensive transport, they can make their points back...



Moonschwine said:


> Do you use unmarked marines?


Nope, never did but from what i read, i should really try it..



Moonschwine said:


> Do you use Berzerkers, Noise Marines or T-sons?


No but really curious to try Noise marine, they seem to be able to unleash a lot of fire power and even more with the good psychic power and daemon allies...



Moonschwine said:


> Do you use cult troops exclusively?


I tried running an all nurgle list and even though i am though as hell, i am not mobile so it is not always easy in objective games...



Moonschwine said:


> Do you have shooty-terminators?


No i hate termies....



Moonschwine said:


> Do you only have 1 helldrake?


nope but i have two more coming my way real soon.



Moonschwine said:


> Are you not using bikes?


Not yet, they are all unassembled and waiting for a good paintjob.



Moonschwine said:


> A yes to one or more of these questions means you need to go look at your list again, because it's not the most points-to-power efficient. Again it depends on your meta. I'm very lucky to have quite a wide-span of opponents in my area who run everything from Leaf-blower to Gaunt-spam, I probably have a Win/Lose % in the 60/40 range which i'm more than happy with because it's only quite rare do I not have an interesting / close game.


Not sure i get what you are saying....a Yes to any of those questions???? In that list you have every troops in the book apart from cultist??? What are you using for troops???


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

madcore said:


> loll...another good point, you can see that midnight love's his heldrakes  I already ordered two more


That I do. Good man.



madcore said:


> No but really curious to try Noise marine, they seem to be able to unleash a lot of fire power and even more with the good psychic power and daemon allies...


They are *devastatingly* shooty.



madcore said:


> In that list you have every troops in the book apart from cultist??? What are you using for troops???


He omitted Plague Marines and Marked CSM alongside Cultists. You sit Cultists on backfield objectives, with Noise Marines or Plague Marines getting the midfield ones.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Just a warning about helldrakes, and that is the design strategy is rapidly reacting against the influx of flyers. Just look at tau they can slap sky fire and interceptor on multiple units with high str guns. If this trend holds up helldrakes may end up being taken down a peg.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Have to agree that Heldrakes are only stupid powerful because of the new factor at the moment.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Heldrakes are good because they have multi-layered defences, huge damage output, and are criminally undercosted, not just 'new factor'. Str8 AP1 Skyfire, as single shots, still isn't that good - it's 5s to pen, then there's a 1/3 chance of it making an invuln, then you have to roll at least a 4+ after modifiers to damage it, and all the while you've got to avoid it as it *will* go for the AA first.

Midnight


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

When I say new factor I am talking about the lack of decent AA options. I figure after the armies have all been updated they will suddenly start releasing better AA options after they have milked flyer sales for a bit.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah for instance tau can hit you with a huge missile storm the moment you show up on the table if they take interceptor and skyfire (Which many tau units can due). So while older armies may be shit out of luck (Only relying on quad guns, their own flyers) a few well built new armies can reliably kill a helldrake a turn form the other side of the table. For instance my main list has 4 flakk missiles, a quad gun (On the back of my table edge), and two helldrakes. Chances are you will get one go with a helldrake before I remove it (and considering the chances of units coming in 1-2 at a time that means you won't get much done before you have a bunch of crippled/dead helldrakes. Now tau can due this even better. So chances are by the end of this edition there will be a fair number of armies that can handle helldrakes.

Now this doesn't mean you shouldn't take them as they are a steal right now, but be prepared for the whole daemon princes syndrome where GW eventually nerfs them into the ground.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

There are quite a few good suggestions here.

I have shifted to Necrons and Eldar since this new chaos book came out because frankly in order to stay competitive or keeping my opponent from advancing with ease I needed to field those stupid Heldrakes. 

If you really want to be competitive with the Chaos you simply need to spam.

- I feel you NEED 3 squads of 2 Oblits with MoN (minimum). You can use them for long range support or if you play extremely mobile armies you can reserve and deep strike the and take out skimmers or gun ships.

- You need 2-3 Heldrakes because with any less you really cant claim air superiority. They also counter hordes and can shake things off objectives with ease.

- Other things that I find have worked are minimum squads of Terminators with Combi-Weapons. Yes, they are 1 trick ponies but they can eliminate tanks and vehicles for you.

- Chaos have some of the best troops in the game (imho) they are extremely versatile and quite resilient. using min/max techniques to pop vehicles and large tanks makes it easier for your troops to get to the juicy bits inside.

- I have also come to like the Maulerfiend. I have never used one but people have managed to tangle my Necron lord on a barge for several turns in a number of games.

- Everyone talks about the juggernaught lord or the bikes but I find for the amount of points you need to invest to make them effective can just becomes a point sink (this depends on the games point limit obviously)

- I have found that chaos sorcerers are sometimes the best. Use them to support and buff your troops/debuff your opposition.

- You mentioned you always use Plague Marines and I have to say I am the same way. I never leave home without them. However as good as they are, they are just too damn expensive to contend.

- Regardless of what you decide to use, I would strongly recommend allies. They can actually make other units that I have not mentioned a little more appealing or allow for more synergy. 

Best of luck with what ever you choose!
Chaosftw


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

scscofield said:


> When I say new factor I am talking about the lack of decent AA options. I figure after the armies have all been updated they will suddenly start releasing better AA options after they have milked flyer sales for a bit.


I have to disagree and argue that ground-based AA being relative rarity even in the long run. At present Tau are the real anti-flyers with any credible threats to the Baledrake but the extra 20pts or so you pay for it quickly becomes a points sink which puts plenty of gamers off spamming anti-air. I'd also argue you won't see ground based sky-fire becoming a prevalent feature in the wider game even with the coming codecies. If Dark Angels are anything to go off for Space Marines, you'll be seeing Flakk Missile Devastators and maybe one dedicated anti-flyer flyer and as midnight pointed out. The Orks will probably have something similar and I can see the Imperial Guard getting one dedicated AA Tank (Hydra), Flakk Missiles and an Anti-flyer Valkyrie. Unless they bring Str 9+ to the game (which is upping the ante of current anti-flyer) str 8 weapons still rely on luck more than anything to cause Drakes problems.




> Not sure i get what you are saying....a Yes to any of those questions???? In that list you have every troops in the book apart from cultist??? What are you using for troops???


I personally use Unmarked CSM's and Cultists. However I don't run "the competitive builds" as I mentioned in my area I'm able to play a wide variety of opponents and I run a "play book" of different lists for different forces. It's not list tailoring, but a series of different list builds that I can just pick from to try have a good game. 

The competitive troops units that I meant to highlight (which I apologize for not being clearer) are:

CSM's who trade bolters for CCW and have the MOK / IOW - These become cheap berserkers for reasonable points value if you want a CC unit that can bash in like for like units. 

Plague Marines - the best troop unit in the codex for a couple of different build options: 1) Tough-to-shift objective holders. 2) Special Weapon squads. 3) CC Tarpits.



> I have shifted to Necrons and Eldar since this new chaos book came out because frankly in order to stay competitive or keeping my opponent from advancing with ease I needed to field those stupid Heldrakes.


That's sad to hear ChaosFTW but I can understand it. I was filled with excitement about this codex but I'm finding that being the first of the edition has been a bit of a let down. I could name a half-dozen desperate changes it needs but alas, time to wait another decade for a revision. Once I finish my army list I myself will probably move back to my Imperial Guard.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> For instance my main list has 4 flakk missiles, a quad gun (On the back of my table edge), and two helldrakes. Chances are you will get one go with a helldrake before I remove it (and considering the chances of units coming in 1-2 at a time that means you won't get much done before you have a bunch of crippled/dead helldrakes.


Jesus, what the fuck Heldrakes are you facing? I'd be lucky to take down 1 per turn with 3 Mortis Dreadnoughts.

Midnight


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I think he just has some epic dice.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Its true my opponents hate me in my gaming center as the number of 5's and 6's I roll is unreal. Then again 8 str7 shots followed by 4-6 vector strikes is a damn reliable way to kill a flyer, and if I ever get desperate I can always use my 4 str9 and 8 str8 as snap shots. 

Just last game I dropped 2 helldrakes in a single turn. Mind you I rolled a 6's to explode the one and simply glanced the other to death, but in a game of chance sometimes the distribution of luck will seem unfair.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, and Power Weapon
> Chaos Sorceror with Mark of Slaanesh
> 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
> 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters
> ...


I'm going to second this list, with a few caveats.

I don't think the third Heldrake is necessary. This list doesn't really care all that much about AA, and Heldrake lists really want a more reliable way to open cars so that the Drakes can get to roasting people ASAP. To that end, I'd drop the Hades Drake for more Obliterators, or Havocs, so you have more firepower before the two Baleflamers come on. It also means you have more firepower to attack your opponent's AA with.

Also, I do quite like Noise Marines, although I also think that there is a perfectly decent list using unmarked CSM with an unmarked Sorceror as HQ. It's a personal preference thing; not to say the Slaanesh list is bad, but there are options to drop the lord, drop MoS on the Sorceror, and then get more bodies.

In the Slaanesh list I don't know that the Sorceror is 100% necessary, I'd consider swapping it out for Terminators for melta disruption.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

coke123 said:


> In the Slaanesh list I don't know that the Sorceror is 100% necessary, I'd consider swapping it out for Terminators for melta disruption.


Simply put - Symphony of Pain. It synergises so damn well with the Noise Marines.

Midnight


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

Hey guys,

So i have been playing my first game since i first wrote this post. My friend who is an excellent player asked me to help him practice for a Ard boyz tournament coming next week.

I decided to play a fully noise marine army to test a lot of the suggestions. Here is the list i had..more,or,less...

Chaos slanesh lord (BHoS)
Chaos slaneesh sorecerer ( i manage to draw symphony of pain and on biomancy, iron arm and enfeeble)

2x squads of 10 noise marines with blastmaster sonic weapons...

4 squads of 5 noise marines with sonic weapons and doom sirens

3. Heldrakes

3 x 2 obliterators
1 squads of havocs

I aegis defence line with quad gun

I played against DE with Eldar allies....a lot of venoms...around 6, 3 raiders and Eldar walkers...etc

Also a big squad of wraithguards with the baron and Eldrad...a very shooty list...oh and also warp spiders...god these are good...

Well in the end i managed to win by taking first blood, line breaker and slaying the warlord. He killed my warlord and i manage to remove his units denyingg him line breaker, we both kept our objective (one each)

The funny thing is that two of my three heldrakes did almost nothing..and they came in late...but one of the three was amazing, it drew a lot of fire power and survived..

The two squads of 10 noise marine where very effective, with symphony it was effective..when Eldad did not prevent it....enfeebled was amazing....

The 4. Squads of 5 noise marines did nothing extrordinary. The limitation of salvo when moving (shootign only 12") made me regret aking those instead of plague marines...

The obliterators (3 x squads of two)....was mediocre. Their change for the use of their weapon was not performing. I would have rather have three squads of havocs with autocannons, that would have been amazing...leaving me with more points..

Overall an amazing game, it made me feel like Chaos can still be a strong army and it is not only the heldrake that makes it so....

Tks for the info guys..


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I never bother with sonic weapons now, besides the Doom Siren, on my "assault" NMs. just give them the extra CCW & the pistol+bolter.


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## Whistler (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm planning on using my Noise Marines (2 x 6 with Blast Master and 4 Blast Masters) and Slaanesh Termie Lord with 20 Cultists in a ADL with quad gun as shooting units in the back, while 3 Maulerfiends and allied Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends surge forwards for board control. No Heldrakes, no Nurgle Oblits, no Rhino's... Just alot of rending fast daemons and 3 Maulerfiends in the opponents face from turn 1 and a strong shooting base in the backfield. No idea if it will work though :dunno:.

Whistler.


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

Whistler said:


> I'm planning on using my Noise Marines (2 x 6 with Blast Master and 4 Blast Masters) and Slaanesh Termie Lord with 20 Cultists in a ADL with quad gun as shooting units in the back, while 3 Maulerfiends and allied Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends surge forwards for board control. No Heldrakes, no Nurgle Oblits, no Rhino's... Just alot of rending fast daemons and 3 Maulerfiends in the opponents face from turn 1 and a strong shooting base in the backfield.


Slaanesh Termie Lord with 20 Cultists in a ADL with quad gun as shooting units in the back, is not what i would call strong shooting in the back...cultist are really poor shooters...the only thing shooting is the quad gun...

I would at least add a squad of havocs with autocannons...but thats just me


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## Whistler (Jun 26, 2013)

madcore said:


> Slaanesh Termie Lord with 20 Cultists in a ADL with quad gun as shooting units in the back, is not what i would call strong shooting in the back...cultist are really poor shooters...the only thing shooting is the quad gun...
> 
> I would at least add a squad of havocs with autocannons...but thats just me


I know, I was being optimistic :so_happy:. No, seriously though, I have just started playing in sixth so I don't really know what works or not. I really like the idea of an EC assault force where daemons and daemonic engines do all the heavy lifting while the EC stay back and do what they (apparantly) do best, shoot. The problem is that I think I'll need the three Maulerefiends to keep the target saturation high enough so the Daemons make it to the enemy in one piece, so I don't have a heavy slot free for the Havocs. I'll post the list over in the army list section of the forum :wink:.

Whistler.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I fought Noise Marines today, and the Blastmaster is absolutely brutal. Killing five or six Marines every turn wasn't uncommon, and I couldn't touch them at 48" away. They killed a Devastator Squad, half a Grey Knight unit, and only stopped there because I moved out of their range completely (which was a bitch for maneuvrebility and only possible because it was the Relic).

Midnight


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I fought Noise Marines today, and the Blastmaster is absolutely brutal. Killing five or six Marines every turn wasn't uncommon, and I couldn't touch them at 48" away. They killed a Devastator Squad, half a Grey Knight unit, and only stopped there because I moved out of their range completely (which was a bitch for maneuvrebility and only possible because it was the Relic).


They are indeed very very brutal on thier own and when used with Sorcerer "Like you though me" They are insane...

I recently won a Ard Boys "practice game" with them against a venom spam army Allied to Eldar...they are insanely good, In fact so good that They are quickly becoming my main army with Nurgle becoming secondary...

In fact, i am now thinking about the effectiveness of a Slaanesh Lord on Steed to outflank....In my last game, the Lord did barely nothing while my Sorcerer Rocked the house...Having a Lord on a Steed to provide outflank with either spawns or Bikes to kill those backfield units would be quite effective..at least i hope so...


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

Just received that in my email inbox, these would make amazing models for CC units of Noise marines:

Forge World - EMPEROR'S CHILDREN LEGION PALATINE BLADES SQUAD


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

madcore said:


> In fact, i am now thinking about the effectiveness of a Slaanesh Lord on Steed to outflank....In my last game, the Lord did barely nothing while my Sorcerer Rocked the house...Having a Lord on a Steed to provide outflank with either spawns or Bikes to kill those backfield units would be quite effective..at least i hope so...


Techically untrue, as he was the reason you won as Noise Marines were Troops, although I think that as you're forced to take him you may as well use him, so I'd go with Steed, Lightning Claw and Burning Brand, although you might want to drop the Brand if you're strapped for points.

Midnight


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## madcore (Jan 29, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Techically untrue, as he was the reason you won as Noise Marines were Troops


Point taken, in this way, he made then game but...



MidnightSun said:


> as you're forced to take him you may as well use him, so I'd go with Steed, Lightning Claw and Burning Brand, although you might want to drop the Brand if you're strapped for points


That Could be cool, I already have some Ligthenin Claws on bit from a Space Wolves box...I Just Need to find a cool looking Steed that will fit well with a Chaos Space Marines. The Daemons one are pretty cool, but i would like to have something more for a Lord. I am thinking about the Lord of Slaanesh on Fantasy but i am still not sure...I want something that will be a blast to paint ant to look at on the Table top.

Any ideas?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Replace his legs with a snake tail. See if you can find a picture of Christian Byrne's Chaos Lord, his had that done and it looked pretty dang awesome (I think it's essentially the Fantasy Chaos Lord on Steed, but with the legs of the rider and head of the steed removed and then greenstuffed into one thing)

Midnight


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