# Gal's Thoughts on C:BA (Another looong post)



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, my Space Wolves Review was well-received, and having just got my mitts on an actual real, legitimate, not a bunch of fucking lies copy of the BA codex, I figured I'd repeat my earlier performance and give you my take on what's included and what it all means.

While the wolves were everything Better and Cheaper than 'nillas, the BA are everything the 'Nillas are, but with sprinkles and whipped cream on top. Very few things are cheaper, many things are better, almost everything is more expensive.

As before we'll start with special rules then work our way down the FOC

NOTE: When I say "the same" or "Unchanged" I mean as compared to vanilla marines, not necessarily the same as the old codex. I'm using 'nilla smurfs as the baseline here.

ATSKNF and Combat Squads, nothing more need be said on those.
In place of Combat/Chapter Tactics we get Descent of Angels and The Red Thirst. These are cool, but lack the universality of the other rules (sadly, no 'everyone gets FC' rule)

*Descent of Angels* is pretty hardcore, IF you're into DSing Jump Troops.
Everyone with a JP gains the ability. You *may* reroll failed reserves rolls for units arriving via JP Deep Strike (so if you don't want your boys arriving too soon you can accept a failed roll), and when they do arrive, they scatter 1d6" less than normal. Meaning most of the time you're arriving early and striking within spitting distance of where you want. Nasty, but it's only for JPs

*The Red Thirst* is not a maddening lust for delicious cherry Kool-Aid (OH YEAH!), no instead it's a watered down, sugar added version of the original furious charge and rage rules we used to have. After deployment but prior to scout moves, you roll 1d6 for every unit with the rule in your army (which is basically everyone with a weapon skill, except servitors). On a roll of 1 (Or 3- if you've got Asty in your list) you are treated as having Fearless and Furious Charge instead of ATSKNF...I can't wait to see the fights cropping up bout Dreadnoughts, who have the Red Thirst but not ATSKNF.

It's not universal FC, but it's also not a 1 in 6 chance of ruining your heavy weapon shots every turn, so I'll take it.

Sadly, it seems HQ characters and unique characters are exempt and do not get Red Thirst. Ah well.

Aaaand...that's it.
No special FOC alterations, no extra HQ slots, that's it. But the juicy bits are still to come.

:hq: *HQ *:hq:
*Unique Characters...*

*Dante* (but not Randal) is solid, if expensive. A hundred points over a 'nilla basic Chapter Master, Dante has an additional Wound, point of Initiative, and Attack, as well as Artificer Armor, a MC Power Axe, a mini-Melta, a Jump Pack, a kickin Death Mask, and a couple cool special rules. If you priced out his wargear you're basically only paying 30 points over a regular master and getting the extra stats, special rules and unique wargear.

The Death Mask is fearsome. In addition to normal Death Mask rules (which force anyone assaulted to take a LD check, failure means they fight at WS1 for the first phase), you also get to single out an enemy IC before deployment and hit them with -1 WS, -1A, -1I, AND -1 Wound(!) for the duration of the game (minimum 1). Yeah, Dante just *being there* effectively wounds one of your ICs and makes him fight like a pussy.

His special rules are ok. He gets *Tactical Precision* which lets Dante and whatever JP unit he's with to not scatter when they DS, and *Surgical Strike* which gives him and his unit Hit and Run. Not shabby

Also, Sanguinary Guard are Troops for him.
Two gripes though. One: they made the Inferno Pistol even *less* unique (they take something away from him every time, I swear). It's not just a standard infernus pistol which every sarge in the army can buy. 6" melta pistol. No master-crafted, no 12" range...but at least it isn't called the 'erdition pistol' anymore. Two: He doesn't have Eternal Warrior. The man's 1200 years old, the oldest living, no-dready marine ever (according to the original fluff at least), and leader of a first founding chapter...but apparently he's nothing special. Not like Pappa Smurf, or the head Sally. The fuck?

Compared to Pappa Smurf, he's 25 cheaper than PA Cal, with a better save annd +1 Initiative and better wargear. No contest.

*Gabriel Seth*...is a fucking machine. 35 points over a 'nilla Master, Gabby gets an extra wound and extra attack (but he's not as fast as Dante). He also comes with a big fuckin sword that grants him S8 and Rending. And (here comes the fuel for debate) even though it's described as being two-handed, nothing SAYS it denies him a bonus attack for his BP. There is no two-handed rule anymore, and most two-handed weapons (like relic blades) explicitly deny bonus attacks. No such for his Blood Reaver (or those bigass power swords the sang guard for that matter).

Whoops, this is what happens when I stay up past my bedtime. As people have pointed out, while there is no two-handed weapon rule, the rules for bonus attack do mention single-handed CCWs. Bah, oh well. 

That said, chances are you won't be using his Attacks characteristics, thanks to his two special rules. *Whirlwind of Gore* allows him to forgo the tedium of rolling to hit and just swing his sword around like a chainsaw wielding maniac and auto-hit every enemy in B2B with him. Yep...auto-hit *everyone* retarded enough to close in on him. If that weren't enough, anyone who survives long enough to actually hit *him* has to deal with his *Ferocious Instincts* which state that anyone who rolls a 1 to hit him suffers an automatic S4 hit from Gabby taking a cheap shot on you for fucking up. The description includes headbutts. It;s not specified, but I believe the spirit of the rule requires you to shout 'Oi, you got nutted, mate! Roit inna gob!" whenever you pull this off. Oh, he's also fearless.

Sadly, he has no FOC mods or other special rules. He's just Leatherface in power armor.

Compared to Pedro, he's 15 cheaper with +1 Wound and +1A, but no special rules to speak of. No bombardment or FOC mods, no inspiring presence. Leatherface is kinda meh. A nasty melee monster that you can score for cheap compared to the other assault monsters of the chapter.

*Astorath* is 120 points over a 'Nilla Chaplain (that's right, Bram Stoker's Dracula with a fucking spinal column battle axe is a chappy), but has +1 WS, BS, W, I, A, and a 2+ save. He also comes with a S6 Power Axe (2 handed, basically a relic blade), and a Jump Pack. Factoring in wargear costs (- the cost of a PW, but paying for arty armor, JP and relic blade) you're paying 75 points for his jacked up stats and special rules....which may be worth it, since along with giving all your units a 50/50 chance of gaining FC and Fearless and the normal chappy baggage, he also removes the 0-1 restriction on Deathco, letting you take up to SIX death companies, if you so desire. Nasty Asty.

Compared to Cassy there's no contest. He's way the fuck killier...but then, you can get almost TWO Cassius (Cassiai?) for the cost of this beast. 

*The Sanguinor* has a silly name but a beautiful mini. He's that Saint Celestine in male drag model you've seen. I'm really not sure how I feel about him. At 25 over the cost of a LAND RAIDER, you get a model with +2 WS, +1S, +1I, and +2A over a Chapter Master, Arty Armor, a 2-handed MC Power Weapon (but no pistol), JP, Eternal Warrior (Fucker!), Fearless, FC, and a couple special rules. *Avenging Angel* lets you pick an enemy HQ at deployment, Sangy rerolsl failed hit and wound against that unit for the game. *The Sanguinor's Blessing* lets you pick one of your sarges and give him +1WS, +1I, +1A and +1 Wound for the game. *Undying Will* gives him a 3+ Invul, and *Aura of Fervour* gives friendly units within 6" +1A (except him)

I mean, he's nice...but meh. Way too expensive, not killy enough, and I don't like his dodgy fluff. Also, not an IC, so he runs around solo hunting enemy HQs.

Compared to Pappa SMurf, he's ten points more than Termie Cal, but not as useful to the army. In a fight he could take the old man, probably, but he's just not as useful and way too expensive.

*Mephiston, Lord of Skullfucking Death* is still a hardcore motherfucker, but not nearly what he once was. Still ungodly expensive (150 over a libby, the cost of a Land Raider), but pretty nasty. Compared to a 'Nilla Libby he has +2 WS, +1 BS, +2S, +2T, +3 Wounfs, +3I, +2A and a 2+ save. He also comes with Arty Armor and a Plas Pistol. He has Fleet as well, but it's what he doesn;t have that surprised me. Still no invul save, they removed his IC status (so he cannot join units), and they took away his Feel No Pain and Fearless! He's not really a Deathco Libby anymore. I mean, don't get me wrong, T6 with 5 wounds is still hard as all fuck, but no Eternal Warrior means he can still be force-weaponed or blissgivered into obilvion, and those wounds go fast if he's facing down a lot of power attacks. 

Like before, he gets 3 powers per turn, in addition to his *Transfixing Gaze* (which now only works on a single IC in BtB and just lets Mephy reroll hit and wounds against him, if said IC fails a LD check at -4.). The good news is, the gaze doesn't count as a paychic attack anymore, the bad news is it kinda sucks. Unlike most high-level psykers, he does NOT have access to the entire arsenal of BA powers. Instead he gets three: The Sanguine Sword (gives him S10 for the duration of the assault phase), Wings of Sanguinius (JP power), and Unleash Rage...which is FUCKING USELESS. It gives him Preferred Enemy. Normally this is an OK power because it gives it to the unit the psyker is with as well...but Mephy isn't an IC anymore, and rerolling misses at WS7 isn't really that big a deal, and it undermines the usefulness of his transfixing gaze. Big fucking whoop. I'd rather have given him Fear, Might, Shield, just about any other power, really. Give a group buff to a loner...fucking brilliant. I see myself not using it in favor of saving a power use for his sword.

Mephy is nasty, dead killy and hard to stop, but I don't know if I see myself using him anymore. Compared to Tigger, he's 30 points heavier, a million times killier, a hundred times harder to kill, but one tenth as versatile. Mephy runs up and kills shit dead, that's all he does. Tigrus actually aids the army and can use his powers to support other units.

*Tycho* is...oh god, I can barely say it...he's...NOT LAME!
He's 75 over a normal captain (25 less than Sicarius), he has straight up cap'n stats, Arty Armor and some toys. His Combi-Melta now uses Sternguard ammo, which makes it actually useful. They also gave him a BP so he;s less useless for the combi-weapon. He apparently has something called *The Dead Man's Hand* which lets him fight like an MC (ignore armor, +1d6 penetration) and is also equipped with digital weapons so he rerolls wounds...ok, that's not bad. It's an LC that fucks tanks and gives a bonus attack. WAY better than the fist full of fail he used to bring to combat. He also gets his old Favored Enemy vs Orks, and he has Rites of Battle. 

But wait, there's more! For free, you can drop his IC status, Rites of Battle and ATSKNF, and play him as Deathco Dante, giving him Rage, Fearless, FNP, Fleet, FC and Relentless...basically making hm USEFUL! For the first time in the long and sordid history of the chapter, Cap'n Bolter von Nipplemail is actually not terrible!

Cheaper than Sicarius, deathco Dante could probably take him in an honest scrap. Only problem is deathco dante can't join any units, even a death company, so he's another solo skirmish character. He's a good value though, if you want a killy character but can't afford the real scrappers, tycho isn't...oh god...he isn't a terrible choice.

Sadly, Moriar is not making a return. Bjorn is the only Dready special character left in the game, and I weep. Other familiar faces (like Corby and Lem) will be showing up later, but that's it for the HQ special characters.

Moving on to the normal HQ units...

*Librarians* are largely unchanged.Combi-weapons are 5 points cheaper and at that same price bracket you get an option for a Hand Flamer (1 less point of S and one worse AP than a normal flamer, counts as pistol), and for the same price point as a plas pistol you get an infernus pistol (6" melta pistol).Termie options are the same, but Storm Shield costs 5 more. Shockingly, you can now buy JPs again, so you aren't forced to use a psychic power to keep up with your escort unit. Bike and JP costs are the same.

*BA Psychic Powers*
*Blood Boil:* 12" shooting power, pick a unit in range, one model in the unit takes an auto-wound with no save or hit roll. Enemy chooses unless the test was 5 or less, in which case you choose. Meh.
*Fear of the Darkness:* Oh fuck yeah, the old broken bastard is back. Shooting power, 24" range, target unit makes a Morale test at -2 (normal modifiers apply, units that never fall back are immune). Expect most libbies to take this and start breaking your units as they flit around on their JPs.
*Might of Heroes:* Basically unchanged. Use at the start of either player's assault phase, if successful the libby or one other model in the unit gains +1d3 attacks for the phase.
*Shackle Soul:* 12" shooting power, until the end of the target unit's next turn it must pass a LD test if it wishes to move, run, shoot or assault. Fail the test you don't get to do the action. Meh.
*Shield of Sanguinius:* Like the wolves fog power, or the ork's KFF, it grants a 5+ cover save to the libby and any unit (friend or foe) within 6". Unlike the KFF it doesn't grant a better save to vehicles, and unlike the wolf power it isn't selective so the enemy gets it too. Not bad, but seems watered down.
*Smite:* Unchanged. Not a lemon-lime soda.
*The Blood Lance:* Shooting attack, extend a straight line 4d6" long from the libby's base. Any enemy unit in the path takes a S8 AP1 Lance hit. Friendlies and units in CC are unaffected. Since you're just extending a line from your base (in any direction, it says), you don't have to see your target, and it doesn't say anything about terrain stopping it, so good for popping tanks through walls. Expect debates and rage over it. Very nasty, will compete with Fear for favored shooting power.
*The Sanguine Sword:* Used at start of either player's assault phase, the libby's CC attacks are made at S10. It doesn't specifically say that it lasts for that phase only like might of heroes does or unleash rage...expect debate. Everyone will take this.
*Unleash Rage:* used at start of either player's assault phase, grants libby and unit Preferred Enemy until the end of the turn. Meh. Not bad, but not nearly as good as the other powers.
*Wings of Sanguinius:* Now that we have JPs again, there's no point to this except on Mephy or if you feel like turning a bike into a Jetbike. ultra-meh. Unless, of course you take it for a Libby Dread...then it;s funny as fuck.

*Chaplain* has been renamed to *Reclusiarch* and costs 30 more than his 'nilla counterpart, but gets +1 BS, +1 W, +1 I, and +1 A.
Is he worth it? I think so.He's basically a captain-level chappy, which is nice. Added bonus, our blood-flavored Liturgies also allows DC to reroll hit *and* wound on the charge. Weapon options are the same, like with libbies the combi-weapon is cheaper and you can have a hand flamer or infernus pistol. Sadly, JPs are 10 points more, making them the same price as for any other character! This effectively makes your BA chappy *40* points heavier than a vamilla (since you're not likely to take one without a JP)...now I'm not so sure he's worth it.

ADDITIONALLY! They changed the rules on the DC's Black Rage. It's just plain old Rage now, and there's no special rule in any of the chappies that lets them ignore it, so your DC will *always* rage towards the enemy. This makes the chaplain less of a mandatory character, but at the same time it makes the DC a little less useful.

I'm unhappy with this a a whole, but I guess it leaves me room for more librarians or killer ICs...

*Captains* cost the same. Storm shield costs 5 more, no Relic Blade, can have hand flamer and infernus, termie options are the same except storm shield is +5 points, NO MOUNTED ASSAULT RULE.

So basically, we get a one more net option (no relic blade, but two different new pistols), the shields cost more, and we get no special rule. This one is a loss. We got ripped off.

*Honour Guard* has morphed into a standard Command Squad with the biker option replaced by JPs (for a little over half the cost). Our champs are the same but cost 5 points more (and are called 'Blood Champions' because Blood Angels like reminding you they're DIFFERENT and DARK!), and our Chapter Banner costs 5 points more for no reason at all. Storm shields now count as a weapon choice (so you can't have, say, a PW, SB AND SS anymore) and cost 5 more We get hand flamer and infernus pistol options. And unlike 'nilla Honour Guard, we don't get Arty Armor, or even the option for it, and we're stuck at 5 men.

It seems like a ripoff on the surface...BUT

Our healer gets a Blood Grail instead of a Narth. What's the diff? Blood Grail gives FNP AND FC to *every BA unit within 6"*

That's right, not just the HG unit, *everyone* who's a BA and within 6". Buy a couple HG units, stagger them right and your whole assault spearhead can have FNP and Furious Charge. Fuckin Nasty.

Sadly, there is no blank slate Chapter Master available. If you want your own leader who's not a rebranded unique you'll have to tart up a Captain, Chappy or Libby.

:elites: *Elites* :elites:
Our elites slot is jam packed, with a lot of second-string character types filling the roster, such as...

*Chaplains!* You can now take a bog standard chappy as an Elites choice. Sadly, the JPs are still +10 over 'nillas, so you're paying more for the same guy, but now he's an elite option instead of an HQ. It's interesting, but I'm not sure if I'll be taking one any time soon. The main reasons to take a chappy are to lead your DC and to fill the mandatory HQ slot. Since the DC are uncontrollable and these guys burn a precious elite slot, there's not much reason left. They're still a killer assault leader though, so I can see it if you're not using the slots, especially if you are dead set on a chappy but don;t want to spend the extra points for a Rec.

*Sanguinary Guard* cost the same as Terminators, but have +1LD, the same armor save (bot no invul) and JPs and are Fearless. They come with Master Crafted 2-handed PWs (sadly, they are not relic blades and do not grant strength bonuses). Their ranged weapon is the equivalent of a 12" AP4 Storm Bolter. It's ok, but not great. For about 5 points each the whole unit gets Death Masks (anyone they assault has to pass an LD test or fight at WS1 for the first phase). One unit can also have an overpriced chapter banner. Any of them can trade their blade for a PF (for what a normal marine pays, less the cost of a PW), or their angelus boltgun for an infernus or plas pistol for the same price. No meltabomb option.

Slightly more fragile but a lot more maneuverable than termies. Less shooty (except at short range), but with grenades and PWs they can strike faster. I think they're pretty well matched for termies.

*Furioso Dreads* are about 20 more than normal dreads, BUT come with AV13 front and +2 to their WS. They come with a pair of 'Blood Fists' which are DIFFERENT and DARK versions of DCCWs...no mechanical difference whatsoever. One has a storm bolter (upgradable to HF) one has a meltagun. They have Red Thirst, and the pair of DCCWs grants them a bonus attack. However, it;s their options that really kick ass.

Replace one of your CCWs with a Frag Cannon...which is like a super mecha-shotgun. (S6, Assault *2* Template with Rending), for free. You pick which one, so you could replace the melta one and throw out three nasty templates in one go.
Replace your DCCWs with "Blood Talons" for free. Blood Talons are Lightning Claws (so S6, reroll wound, ignore armor), that grant a bonus attack for every unsaved wound they inflict...and if THOSE attacks caused unsaved wounds (at S6 ignore saves? Yeah...) THEY generate bonus attacks, and so on and so on until you either stop generating unsaved wounds, or you run out of fuckers to murder.

Seriously, that's fucking mental! You give up your ability to threaten tanks but gain the ability to RAPE infantry in CC. And you retain your built in weapons (melta, sb, flamer, etc)

For the same price as Extra Armor you cna take a Magna-Grapple, which is a 12" S8, AP2 weapon that if it hits the vehicle (even if it fails to glance or penetrate) lets you grapple the fucker. Roll a d6 and add 8, if that number is lower than the highest AV on the vehicle nothing happens. If it's equal to or greater than the target's highest AV you drag the fucker 2d6" towards you, stopping if it gets within 1" of another vehicle, difficult or impassable terrain, or an assault. Non-vehicles in the way are tank shocked. BRUTAL

For some reason we have to buy spotlights now. Good way to use stray points, I guess...

Oh, and for 50 you can upgrade your Furioso to a Librarian. He gets a hood, a Force Weapon (gives up a DCCW, must choose which to use but it does grant a bonus attack either way), and two powers which includes Wings of Sang. He only gets one power use per turn, but yes, flying dreads FTW. Hard to say what powers would be good here, but expect wings just for shits and giggles. LD10 for the purpose of psychic tests, perils = glance.

No venerable or DC upgrades, sadly.

*Terminators* of both regular and assautl flavor are unchanged, except our Hammer/Shield assault erems are +5. Fuck! I hate these fucking 'fixes' where they break something in an earlier codex, nerf the new codex, and then leave the same hole unplugged in the one that broke it in the first place.

*Techmarines* are unchanged. Instead of a bike option we can trade the servo arm for a free JP, but they are NOT ICs. Our servitors cost 5 points extra for no reason. They don't have mindlock, but then they're no longer a different unit so it's not really a bonus

*Sternguard* are unchanged

*Sanguinary Priests* are back! You can have 1-3 for a single Elites slot, they cost the same as a techmarine but have +1 WS and LD and are ICs. They have Chalices (gives FNP to any BA within 6") and the standard array of character upgrade weapons, along with JPs, Bikes and Termie armor.

Basically thanks to these fuckers you can pretty much make your whole army FNP and FC. Burn a couple elites slots and you can give them to pretty much every squad. Have fun with that.

*Corbulo* comes back here as well. a little more than twice the price of a normal SP, he has +1 BS, Wounds, I, and A over a normal SP, his chainswoord, once useless, is now S5 and Rending, his chalice gives *him* a 2+ FNP check, and the satandard FNP and FC to BA within 6". He also has a special ability that gives you one reroll, for ANYTHING, even siexing the initiative.But you only get one and if he does before you use it you lose it. That's fucking awesome for a cheap IC who uses 1/3rd of an elites slot.

Expect to see lots of SPs.

:troops: *Troops* :troops:

*Tactical Squads* are basically the same.Sarges can take homers for +15. No hand flamer, no infernus pistol

*Death Company* are a troops choice, BUT the normal limit is 0-1 and they NEVER count as scoring. The good news is, they're optional. The bad news is they're still expensive. 20 points hoofing, 35 flying. WS 5, A2, Rage, Fearless, FNP, FC, Relentless. No more Rending. Max squad size is 30(!!), any can have PW, PF, or Hammer for the standard costs. Every five models can have a hand flamer, infernus or plasma pistol.

*Lemartes* is back, and though he's more expensive now, he remains underpriced for what he does. He's 50 points more than a standard chappy but comes with a JP, I6, a master crafted PW, and if he's wounded (but not killed) he hulks out, S and A both changing to 5 for the remainder of the game. Expect debates over "Suffers an unsaved wound" is before or after FNP comes into play. Ou, I almost forgot to mention, Lemmy is now a member of the DC, so he also has furious charge and Feel No Pain. The only problem is if you have him you have to either walk your DC or give them packs since you cannot put his JP into a transport (except the stormraven)

*Death Company Dreads* are troops now as well. You may have one for every 5 DC models. Sadly, they cost the same as a Furioso but with only AV12 Front and WS5, but they do get +1A. They come with Fleet, Furious Charge, Rage, and an ability that lets them ignore Shaken and Stunned. They can take blood talons (fuck yeah, with furious charge) for free, upgrade their SB to a HF, take a Grapple and a Searchlight, and that's it.

It's kinda lame that they're actually *downgraded* from furiosos, but they cost the same and are nasty in their own right. Good if you don't have any elites slots to spare.

*Scouts* are back as a Troops choice, huzzah! Unfortunately the HB does NOT come with Hellfire shells, but still costs the same! WTF?! They get homers instead of locators for 10 less.

*Assault Squads* are still Troops, and are the samme as regular SM assault squads, but with more options! The 'every five models' upgrade weapons now include full on plasma guns and meltas, as well as hand flamers and infernus pistols (above and beyond the normal flamer/pp), likewise the sarge gets hand flamer and infernus options.

If you take them on foot you get a 35 point discount on your transport.

*Dedicated Transports*
Now here's an interesting change!

In addition to rhinos and razors, *all* Land Raiders are now Dedicated Transport options only. They are not available as HS choices, BUT *any* unit capable of taking a transport can have one if you pay the points. Tacticals, honour guard, terminators, doesn't matter. Any unit with a transport option (except termies and dreads) may select 8any* dedicated transport. Termies are limited to LRs and pods, dreads are limited to pods. 

*Rhinos and Razors* are Fast now, and cost 15 points more. However, TL Heavy Flamer is a free upgrade for razorbacks. Otherwise ucnhanged (except we have to pay for spotlights), troop capacity is back down to SW levels. It seems the increased capacity in the SM dex must've been a misprint or something.

As stated before, all Land raiders may now Deep Strike (models inside may not assault the turn they arrive). As per normal, vehicles arriving from deep strike count as having moved Cruising Speed.

:fa: *Fast Attack* :fa:

*Vanguard Vets* are the same as normal, but 10 points cheaper for the base unit (their JPs still cost too much). No relic blades but the sarge can trade his PW for an encarmine glaive (the 2 handed Master crafted PWs the SGs use) or LC for free, so for anyone worried that the introduction of vanguard vets was a nefarious scheme to make you buy a BA VV sarge model in addition to the normal models can rest comfortably. Infernus pistols and hand flamers are options for them all, in addition to the normal stuff.

Heroic intervention combined with descent of Angels is pretty nasty. Makes them actually worth taking, maybe. Just in case you needed yet another elite JP unit.

*Land Speeders, Bikers, Scout bikers and Attack Bikes* are unchanged. No hand flamers or infernusses

*Baal Predators* are 55 points over a normal predator but are Fast and come with TL Assault Cannons in the turret. Heavy Flamer Sponsons cost what HBs cost on a regular pred, and HBs on the Baal cost 5 more. Can swap out the asscans for a Flamestorm cannon for free (the same as the redeemer sponson weapon). They also have Scouts, which combined with their Fast status is brutal. The Lucifer engines are way better than OCEs, all in all still worth it.

:hs: *Heavy Support* :hs:

*Dreadnoughts* because we totally need more of those. Exactly the same as normal except with Red Thirst. Missile Launcher and TLAC are 5 points cheaper, everything else is the same.

*Stormravens* are kinda meh. 50 points less than a raider, AV 12 all around, Fast, Skimmer, TLAssCan, TLHB, four Bloodstrike Missiles (Basically HKMs with 72" range and AP1),immune to melta bonus damage, Deep Strike, POTMS, Assault Vehicle, and a special disembark like the Valh has for if the thing is moving flat out and you feel like bailing anyhow.(normal models make a dangerous terrain test, JPs land safely and use discent of angels to scatter less), can't assault after bailing out like that. Can carry 12 models (JPs and termies count double), and/or one dread.

Can replace the TLHB with TLMM for free, or Typhoon launcher for 25, can swap TLAssCan for TLPlasCan or TLLC for free, can take aLocator beacon for the same price as Extra Armor, and Hurricane bolter sponsons for twice that. Not really a fan That's a lot of points for AV12.

*Predators* are 10 over normal but are FAST, sponsons cost 5 more regardless of type.

*Whirlwinds* cost 5 points more and are FAST

*Vindicators* are *30* points more and are FAST....that's a huge price bump, but I think considering they can still take the doom shovel upgrade and now whiz around at 12" firing their vindi-cannon, I think it's fair. Maybe a little harsh.

*Devastator Squads* are the same, but the weapons are cheaper. HB/MM/ML are 5 less, Plascan and Lascan are 10 less.

No Thunderfire cannons or Venerable Dreads.

All in all, I like it. It suffers a lot of the same problems that SM had, only a couple things were cheapened, and several things were made more expensive. That said, they have a lot of new and interesting choices, some of which are really strong.

I don't see this as a game breaker, and I'd say they're probably still below Space Wolves in terms of power, but an upgrade from what they once were, and an upgrade from the nillas.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Awesome review mate, it really makes it all clear :good: I might suggest a bit of a sum up of your thoughts about the army at the end there, just to finish it off, since you've come so far already :biggrin: I think BAs will be a very tough nut to crack looking at all this - They aren't all *that* much more in terms of cost, but they get huge benefits altogether. It's always easiest to get a feel for the power level of an army by watching them play of course, so we'll see...



Galahad said:


> Well, my He also comes with a big fuckin sword that grants him S8 and Rending. And (here comes the fuel for debate) even though it's described as being two-handed, nothing SAYS it denies him a bonus attack for his BP. There is no two-handed rule anymore, and most two-handed weapons (like relic blades) explicitly deny bonus attacks. No such for his Blood Reaver (or those bigass power swords the sang guard for that matter).




BUT you only get the +1 attack bonus for having 2 Single-Handed CCWs  On P37 of the BRB, rather that in the CCW rules, it's very explicit. So if it actually describes it as 2 handed, no luck there  They'll have to be downgraded from "God-like" to "Uber".


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Seems interesting. Some things are better than rumoured, others are worse.

I can't wait to see Nid players faces when a DC Furioso charges their Trygon and bitchslaps it off the board...

And random combo: Libby Dreadnaught with Unleashed Rage and a Blood Talon. Rerolls to hit, rerolls to wound, and consequently LOTS of attacks. It wouldn't surprise me to see this cutting its way through 10 infantry per turn. 3s to hit, 2s to wound with rerolls to both. Nasty.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Another quality review Gal, as always. Dex looks like it gonna be lethal. Not being a BA player/fan I dont know how much is different. Only thing I cannae get is the DS Land Raiders. Did 'Bob the idiot rule troll' escape from the cupboard again. As I said looks good, but not enough to turn me from my beloved Wolves. Was gonna gie you some rep, but apparantly I got to 'spread the rep around' before i give you more.


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

using a 2 handed weapon stops you gaining an extra attack for having another CCW. the rulebook says it, common sense says it, the future errata/faq will say it. anyone i play who tries different(unless they reverse that rule officially in a faq) against me will prolly get an exorcist to the head(the GW one at that!). other than that, this was a really good read, and full of info. hats off to you mate.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Outstanding review matey!


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## Keelia (Aug 3, 2009)

Only way to negate the no bonous for 2H weapon is a piece fo wargear that allows you a +1 attack even if you are using a 2h weapon....IE Tormentor Helm


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Wow, nice review, very nice indeed. Im not much for the Blood Angels, but now im really tempted to give a Dread/Tank heavy army a spin since it seems like it will be insanly fun to play.

Plus i think some of the minarture are just soo sexy its unreal.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Baaaah! This is what happens when I stay up several hours past my bedtime to get shit typed up. Of course, it;s been pointed out that while there is no 2-handed weapons rule anymore, the rules for bonus attacks do specify single-handed CCWs, so yeah, I was off base on that. Even the best of us slips up now and them. I can blame extreme sleepiness though . I edited the post with a lime line where I first mention it explaining the fuckup, then I edited subsequent mentions.

That said, I think the encarmine blade is a piece of shit.
Giving up a bonus attack for a *single* reroll? Fuck that noise.
It isn't so bad on the guard because most of them are carrying bolters as well, but it's still shit.

They couldn't have given them a strength bonus for it? Maybe not full on relic blade, but at least a +1?

Bah, oh well. All in all, it's not a bad dex. Not entirely sure what to make of it at the moment, but it's worth a go.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

great review
this is one of the codices that I will just pick up to have, even though i might never make a blood angels army

Im a big fan of the new furiosos though, if i were to make a blood angels army, I would almost max out in dreads :mrgreen:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah. The new furiosos are sick as hell. Unfortunately they're spendy too. The AV13 helps, and those blood talons can destroy whole squads in a single go. Not sure about the Liby option. I'll build one, for sure but I'm not sure if I'll use one. It's a lot of points for a basic liby , even if he is a flying dreadnought

I forgot to mention, Lemmy is a full on deathco chappy now. He gets FNP and furious charge


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

> you also get to single out an enemy IC before deployment and hit them with -1 WS, -1A, -1I, AND -1 Wound(!) for the duration of the game (minimum 1). Yeah, Dante just *being there* effectively wounds one of your ICs and makes him fight like a pussy.


This is just a retarded rule. Think about it. Say your playing against some CSM's led by Abbadon, do you really think Abbadon is scared of Dante? So much so he craps his admantium panties and takes a wound for having soggy drawers? Actually, is any "fearless" IC going to now be scared? Just seems like a retarded rule that doesn't work with the mechanics of the game. But, he is super expensive so you probabally will not see him in a regular game all that often. 

I also see a mass migration of dreadnought boxes from the shelves of stores into the hands of drooling BA players. I like it. Dreads are fun to use, but with those new super killy claws, things are going to get ugly in CC! Awesome.

Everything else seems OK for now, but after people play them enough, they will find the pro's and con's quickly enough to see that they can be handled just as well as any other army I think. I am looking forward to seeing how people make some army lists from this one.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Techniclaly it's the power of the primarch's rage that empowers the mask to call down a curse, so it's not so much fear, necessarily as just a big wad of bad juju.

The normal death mask effect doesn;t say fearless are immune. It makes reference to some kind of golden energy so it could be written off as some kind of magic/psychic/technological gimick that makes it work on everyone. Like banshee masks


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Techniclaly it's the power of the primarch's rage that empowers the mask to call down a curse, so it's not so much fear, necessarily as just a big wad of bad juju.
> 
> The normal death mask effect doesn;t say fearless are immune. It makes reference to some kind of golden energy so it could be written off as some kind of magic/psychic/technological gimick that makes it work on everyone. Like banshee masks


Yeah, I understand that. But it just reeks of stupid. I was just using an example that we all know as the one biggest, baddest character in the chaos dex, who is now "scared" or "shaken" or "affected" by anything other then a good solid boot to the meat n' potatoes is just goofy.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

he's not scared, just cursed ;-)


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Damn all these new dexs have so many interesting units and rules I really feel like CSM got the short end of the stick this time around... Oh thats right all our interesting stuff went to the F%$##$ daemons codex


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## Purge the Heretic (Jul 9, 2009)

Question, characters do not have the red thirst rule, so if a character deploys with a unit does this mean that unit is unable to roll for red thirst?


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I see the BA codex as a fantastic marketing scheme of GW to sell lot's of Dreads with all the new fancy ones coming out aka the venerable plastic kit and iron clad plastic kit it will mean alot of profit for GW as people will by lots of dreads to be able to play one of each or more in an army.

It looks good, I'm just a little sad there is not a more basic CC based captain that is cheap and that alot of the SC are not IC's but loner (supposeably mega death) characters which is good and bad as they are a large amount of points and you will just have one squad in the enemy army just firing at them for a turn or 2 to kill them


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Luckily I never use ICs in any of my armies, so Dante's mega curse doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that pretty much all new vehicles in 40k now ignore shaken and stunned results on the damage chart - what is the point of the chart! :angry:
For armies that are pretty much only ever allowed to glance enemy vehicles (like Necrons and Tyranids) is there any way to beat this sort of over powered crap?!?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Hmm, makes me want to start a bllod angel army...although, Flesh tearer style.

1k points,
Seth, a chappy, 1 squad of death company, 1 squad of marines, 1 squad with a lascannon, 3 rhinos and 2 furiosos.

Hmmm...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Damn all these new dexs have so many interesting units and rules I really feel like CSM got the short end of the stick this time around... Oh thats right all our interesting stuff went to the F%$##$ daemons codex


True that :laugh:.



darklove said:


> What does bother me is that pretty much all new vehicles in 40k now ignore shaken and stunned results on the damage chart - what is the point of the chart! :angry:
> For armies that are pretty much only ever allowed to glance enemy vehicles (like Necrons and Tyranids) is there any way to beat this sort of over powered crap?!?


I know, this is the example of Power Creep coming into play. I can understand a few units or Upgrades allowing for ingnor results, like Daemonic Possession takes away a BS and makes a Vindi 25 Pts more expensive, a trade off, but alot now seems just to have for the sake of having it .


Gal, Ive been actually waiting for a reveiw by you on these BAs to put my fears at ease, next week Im looking to play a BA Veteran and now I have some Idea of what too prepare for. :good: I also can see that BAs will NOT suit a Soul Drinker theme army.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

very good review. Taking every unit step by step makes it very thorough and already has me thinking of out of the box armies. I expect a lot of lists will be made similar to the pros of this list....


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Damn all these new dexs have so many interesting units and rules I really feel like CSM got the short end of the stick this time around... Oh thats right all our interesting stuff went to the F%$##$ daemons codex


I was thinking the exact same thing... we got hosed.:angry:

(waiting to hear the "winged/lash/prince" thing pop up. Oh, wait... it's the only really decent choice for a dedicated HQ in what could be called a boring set of rules.)


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

What? Such Heresy you speak! Surely GW would never make Chaos more boring than a bunch of loyalists?!>!


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

darklove said:


> Luckily I never use ICs in any of my armies, so Dante's mega curse doesn't bother me.


Sorry?:read: So you don't field any HQ units? Or did you confuse Independent Character with Special Character?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Sanguinary Dan said:


> Sorry?:read: So you don't field any HQ units? Or did you confuse Independent Character with Special Character?


There are ways around it. Like taking Mephiston who doesn't have that rule or some armies can take retinues which makes them not independent characters.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Sanguinary Dan said:


> Sorry?:read: So you don't field any HQ units? Or did you confuse Independent Character with Special Character?


It's very possible to field lists without independent characters, Chaos of both varieties, Eldar, and others I'm not recalling right now can do so.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Yes when in a retinue you loose the IC status and can't be singled out which means my Archon can still stay at maximum efficiency though I could of just re-boosted myself with my combat drugs and animus vitae


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## soots12 (Dec 27, 2008)

thanks a bunch for your review...it helped me plan out what to take in my army
im still unsure which hq unit to take for a 1000pts army and a 1500 pts army
i was thinking of either a libby or c.master for 1000pts
any other suggestions will be appreciated :victory:


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Great review. It gave me some ideas.


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## Ferik (Nov 5, 2008)

I think its worth mentioning that the Baal Predator can also scout which makes it all the nastier imo.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Purge the Heretic said:


> Question, characters do not have the red thirst rule, so if a character deploys with a unit does this mean that unit is unable to roll for red thirst?


No, the unit still has red thirst so the unit still rolls for it, it just doesn't have any effect on the IC



Blue Liger said:


> I see the BA codex as a fantastic marketing scheme of GW to sell lot's of Dreads with all the new fancy ones coming out aka the venerable plastic kit and iron clad plastic kit it will mean alot of profit for GW as people will by lots of dreads to be able to play one of each or more in an army.


I know I'll probably build some more dreads, just for shits and giggles if nothing else.



> It looks good, I'm just a little sad there is not a more basic CC based captain that is cheap and that alot of the SC are not IC's but loner (supposeably mega death) characters which is good and bad as they are a large amount of points and you will just have one squad in the enemy army just firing at them for a turn or 2 to kill them


There is still a generic captain you can customize, just no generic chapter master.



Ferik said:


> I think its worth mentioning that the Baal Predator can also scout which makes it all the nastier imo.


WHOOPS! How the FUCK did I forget to include that? Next time I do one of these it;s going to be *before* bedtime

Also, thanks guys for all the rep and praise. I've been waiting for this codex for a long time and was just thrilled to have the chance to share it with you guys.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Galahad said:


> There is still a generic captain you can customize, just no generic chapter master.QUOTE]
> 
> It's the fact that they don't have the special rules like the rest of the army does, I mean I can see in a way why in that alot of units give of special abilities (aka the priests) it's just that I wish the captain had his own built-in to accomodate for the fact he may want to get stuck in by say joining an assault squad and rushing up with them into the fight and the assault squad and having the ability to gain that extra S and I for assault - that sort of thing, he's just a boring heap now and not some awe inspiring leader. I mean a Lib dread is great but a well placed Misslelauncher shot can blow him down one go where as a capatain can have a better chnavce of survival.
> 
> Just my thoughts anyways, I'll stick to my xenos


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Fair point, but then captains were always shit characters, really. Only reason to take a captain in C:SM was if you wanted biker troops. Otherwise just take a Libby or Chappy.

That's been the problem from the start. BA didn't fix it, but they didn't start it either. You want an inspiring leader who can clean up in assault, take Nasty Asty or Dante. Want one cheap, take a reclusiarch or a librarian, or...<shudders> You could even take Tycho...


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Fair point, but then captains were always shit characters, really. Only reason to take a captain in C:SM was if you wanted biker troops. Otherwise just take a Libby or Chappy.
> 
> That's been the problem from the start. BA didn't fix it, but they didn't start it either. You want an inspiring leader who can clean up in assault, take Nasty Asty or Dante. Want one cheap, take a reclusiarch or a librarian, or...<shudders> You could even take Tycho...


I am waiting to see people faces when a thousand son sorcerer 1 hit ko's mephiston :laugh:

Also at least the sang boy will give me a basis for sanguinius in my pre-heresy BA list.....


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Sanguinary Dan said:


> Sorry?:read: So you don't field any HQ units? Or did you confuse Independent Character with Special Character?


Hive Tyrant is not an IC.
The C'tan are not IC.


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> Yes when in a retinue you loose the IC status and can't be singled out which means my Archon can still stay at maximum efficiency though I could of just re-boosted myself with my combat drugs and animus vitae


Loss of IC status doesn't mean that the model isn't an IC. I'd imagine that having the retinue wouldn't protect you from Dante's mask. But I don't have the book yet, so can't be sure.

Besides, when you have to pay to counteract something he gets for free Dante still wins. And lets not even get started on the 3e codex rules interaction with 5e codex rules crap.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

one question. you said sanguinary priests were 1 - 3 for one elite slot. Are they then one unit of 3 or are they 3 seperate units that work from the one slot??


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

They are 1-3 separate ICs that can join any unit or remain on their own, join together, whatever.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, the parts that they got right they got right.

The parts that are absolutely moronic... wow, what stinkers.

There's the poorly thought out crap. There's the "no really, pull the other one" crap, and then there's the "we ran out of cool things to give BA, so we started ripping things off of other codices that aren't due for a few years" crap.

If the mask is a psychic curse, then psychic defenses should work on it. In any case, it causes models to lose wounds, so it sure sounds like I'll be taking invuln saves against it until they faq it. It's a shame that they won't just errata it out of existance.

Giving SM "you have s10" as a pyshic power is also moronic. Why not just, say, give them "wounds on a 2+, s9 against vehicles"? It stacks with weapons already, so it's better than a witchblade as-is. For that matter, Blood Talons? Maybe it's not as rediculous as it sounds. Maybe I'm just smarting from seeing my dread equiv get the shit nerfed out of it 6 years ago.

I could hate on the stormraven all day, but I'll leave it simple: GW has strictly refused to give skimmers anything other than av10 in the past. They have explicitly removed the option of Fire Points on other races skimmer transports because they are "sealed for atmospheric flight." While DA did get screaming jets, no one else got the ability to deepstrike their skimmer transports. Then GW decided that they wanted SM and now BA to have the ability to deepstrike troop transports in, and so they rewrote the fluff to give their troops deepstriking transports (drop pods aren't exactly transports. They're delivery mechanism) while ignoring their previous fluff. While making this the best skimmer transport in the game when you allow for melta-weapons being the prime way of killing vehicles these days. Fuck them. I'm tired of this shit, and I'm tired of reading Jervis talking about how there's no limit to the number of exciting and amazing things they can think up for Astartes chapters at large to play with. Saying things like that makes it sound like he's a complete dick who wants to remind everyone who doesn't play loyalist marines of just how fucked they are. "Hay guyz, we always wrote that you had x ability, but never gave it to you. Now we decided to give a loyalist marine those abilities, so we made up some random crap for them and gave them the ability. Don't worry, we'll stop writing about you having that ability in the future. I hope that helps you forgot us violently robbing your armies fluff."

And the frustrating thing is, it IS a solid list. It's just got a bunch of unneccesary bullshit that BA didn't need and that they had no business giving to them. Strip the BS out, cheapen things up a tad for it, and you've got some cool options. I don't neccesarily like the idea of vehicles with a Hood, or Heroic Intervention with such a high degree of reliability, but hey, give them their glory. Night Lords needed a way of making DSing work for them, and this will be it too, so it's a 2:1 bonus. The fast vehicles make me mad, but that's just because I glare with ire at all armies that get a playable fast attack section. I'm happy for them, I swear. And hey, Riflemen are competing down their in HS. Ouch, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

Honestly... they have scoring units with 2x meltaguns/flamers that get a free rhino. That's pretty fucking cool right there. That's the right feel. Drive up to the objective, blow the transport that's camping it or immolate the dudes hiding in cover, take the objective in HtH. Sweet. If you're unsure if you can do it all right now, do a drive-by. Woo!

DoA: Again, I'm leary, but it's really cool. If Night Lords and BA players use it they'll have to make mystic-style abilities more common. We'll see if it's ballanced or even usefull, but hey, cool factor is good.

All fast vehicles: Fast Vehicles are really freaking good. But hey, you pay for that, right? I'm just hoping this helps them hone in on the proper points costs for these things.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Cyklown said:


> If the mask is a psychic curse, then psychic defenses should work on it.


They didn't say it was psychic, just that it resonates with the rage of sanguinius at horus betrayal and can be used to lay down a powerful curse. Daemon powers aren't subject to psychic defenses either, maybe it's similar. Fluff aside, the raw doesn't allow any defense.



> In any case, it causes models to lose wounds, so it sure sounds like I'll be taking invuln saves against it until they faq it. It's a shame that they won't just errata it out of existance.


Nope. It doesn't cause a wound, it gives the model -1 to his Wounds Characteristic (to a minimum of 1). It's not causing a wound so there's no saves or FNP, it just lowers your wounds characteristic the same way it lowers your other abilities.



> Giving SM "you have s10" as a pyshic power is also moronic. Why not just, say, give them "wounds on a 2+, s9 against vehicles"? It stacks with weapons already, so it's better than a witchblade as-is. For that matter, Blood Talons? Maybe it's not as rediculous as it sounds. Maybe I'm just smarting from seeing my dread equiv get the shit nerfed out of it 6 years ago.


At least I don't have to worry about mephy getting locked with someone's dreadnought anymore ;-) And Blood Talons are pretty sick. You;re hitting on 3+ against most foes, wounding on 2+ most of the time, ignoring saves, rerolling those failed 2+ wounds, and you get a bonus swing every time you score one of those rerolled 2+ wounds. You can easily wipe out 8 marines in one go with that.

And we got Fear of the Darkness back too 



> I could hate on the stormraven all day


Clearly.
All that said, however, I really don't see it ever being a popular choice. For a start, there's no model or even any art to base your kitbashes on. And while that can change, it doesn't change the fact you're paying way too much for a flimsy transport. It negates the extra d6 from meltas but not from anything else, and you're still shooting AV12 with a S8 AP1 weapon.

Compare the stormraven to the vendetta valk and you'll see it's nothing all that special. The vendetta is 70 points cheaper and has three TL lascannons, the same special deployment method and only really lacks the JP/dread capacity, melta resistance and potms of the raven, while the raven has a weaker armament and costs half again as much.

It's 200 points and will attract every lascannon on the board as soon as it appears. Trust me, you're not going to see a rash of 3-raven lists any time soon. Especially since it uses HS slots that are better spent on our speedy new vindis



> And the frustrating thing is, it IS a solid list. It's just got a bunch of unneccesary bullshit that BA didn't need and that they had no business giving to them.


That's a fair point. While I hardly see the stormraven as the best skimmer transport in the game, I do agree that it seemed a really fucking random thing to include for no apparent reason. Likewise for the Libby Dreads. If you're going to include character dreads for no reason, I think a chaplain dread would have been more fitting for BA. Extend the chappy abilities out in a 6" radius since it can't join units, gimp it with a power weapon for thematic reasons

The rest of it, I don't really see much as not fitting in with BA.
Meanwhile, a lot of our stuff costs more than normal for no reason.



> Honestly... they have scoring units with 2x meltaguns/flamers that get a free rhino. That's pretty fucking cool right there.


<cough> Not quite free...we DO have to pay 15 for it...OCEs make our transports more expensive than normal.

Free drop pods though.



> That's the right feel. Drive up to the objective, blow the transport that's camping it or immolate the dudes hiding in cover, take the objective in HtH. Sweet. If you're unsure if you can do it all right now, do a drive-by. Woo!


Tat's how we sued to roll, back in the rhino rush days. 



> DoA: Again, I'm leary, but it's really cool. If Night Lords and BA players use it they'll have to make mystic-style abilities more common. We'll see if it's ballanced or even usefull, but hey, cool factor is good.


I rarely ever deep strike with my JP units, I'd rather have them on the board where they can take objectives or outmaneuver the enemy from the start rather than hoping and praying they come in the nick of time. About the only unit I might use this on is vanguard, but honestly I never liked how pricy they are (even with the minor reduction in cost)



> All fast vehicles: Fast Vehicles are really freaking good. But hey, you pay for that, right? I'm just hoping this helps them hone in on the proper points costs for these things.


They do pay, and it seems they prorated it quite steeply in most cases. Fast whirlies are no big deal, so they only cost 5 more. Fast vindis are insane, so they cost 30 more. That irks me a little since transports are +15 and Predators are +10 (+15 when you factor in pricier sponsons). 30 seems steep, but if it were much cheaper there'd be no reason not to max them out.

Expect SOB players to scream about our Fast Razors getting free TL Heavy Flamer upgrades though ;-)


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

The fact that they made it unplayable doesn't really mollify me, it makes that much worse, really.

At this point they've raped the eldar's fluff to give the BA something, and made it unplayable. That's doing something wrong with no gain.

Again, all in all there's some amazing stuff there. On top of all the crap I'm whining about, it's a sweet dex that hits the "feel" of the BA perfectly. I'm just unsure why they had the fuck it up with all that other crap. The BA get some of their rhino-rushing glory without all the tying people up in cc with no chance for response, their vehicles do their job, etc. I realize that I spend more time whining than I do praising, but that's the nature of the beast: I'm a born whiner. wait, what? I do focus on the negative, but the list is, looking at the general feel absolutely perfect for BA (+successors), Khorn and Night Lords. That's really sweet. 3 dex's that desperately needed to be made, and now we have them. The fact that the successors and Chaos counts-as lists will want to make up their own codex cover that applies to their army won't matter, since no on wants to see that particular codex anyways (another whine thinly disguised as praise. whoops).

Then you get other crap that makes me mad enough to track down a small yappy dog, patiently feed it for a few days and then buy plane tickets, a bic lighter, a small paper bag and just head over to GW HQ.C hildish? Sure.

Raping other people's HQs is unfun. It's a poor use of design space. You can make someone a CC beast with "cool powers" without doing stupid stuff. You can make someone a baddass psycker without a) giving him powers that are not psyckic at all and b) without completely breaking the mold for "what the most powerfull psycker in the universe" can do. As far as not getting dreadlocked, having the psychic power upgrade his weapon to also be a witchblade would have done a perfectly fine version of that. Witchblades with an I that beats that of the dread they're fighting or which are hitting WS-less vehicles already fuck them up royally.

As for the blood talons:
Against most units you wound 35/36th of the time. You're basically rolling to hit until you roll misses equal to your A value. That was absurdly powerfull when swooping hawks did it, and they only wounded 1/2-1/3 of the time. I realized they wanted to make a really baddass Dread that owned infantry in HTH, but the level it's at seems uneccesary. They wanted to make it "properly" munch boyz mobs and nids, but with their lack of saves there's ways of making it do well against them without raping things with a decent armour save but smaller unit sizes. Make it increase it's init for chasing units down and double casualties it inflicts for "no surrender" instead of getting free attacks in, or just make it not ignore armour saves. The latter would be more solid mechanically but would favor 'rines a bit much. *shrugs*.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Cyklown said:


> The fact that they made it unplayable doesn't really mollify me, it makes that much worse, really.
> 
> At this point they've raped the eldar's fluff to give the BA something, and made it unplayable. That's doing something wrong with no gain.


I don;t see how it does anything to eldar fluff. It's by al accounts just a slightly scaled down thunderhawk, which flies basically by brute force and crude jabs at aerodynamic principles. It's no elegant grav-powered falcon or wave serpent.

It's not even inconceivable for the empire to have them since it;s just a different version of a machine they've had for thousands of years. It's not so much a skimmer as a flier by another name. Same with the valks. They wanted to include some fliers in the game without opening the whole can of worms that rules for them would entail. That's why orks have "jetbikes" that are just crude helecopters.

It just boggles me that they chose now to introduce it. It's not out of line for the empire as a whole, but odd as hell for the BA exclusively.



> Again, all in all there's some amazing stuff there. On top of all the crap I'm whining about, it's a sweet dex that hits the "feel" of the BA perfectly. I'm just unsure why they had the fuck it up with all that other crap. The BA get some of their rhino-rushing glory without all the tying people up in cc with no chance for response, their vehicles do their job, etc.


Seems about par for the course There's always something just not quite right. At least this time they made the rules relatively tight (the way tycho's rites of battle is worded is a little odd though), not like the SW codex. And things are (mostly) neat and fluffy without being insane...though a few things are insane.



> I realize that I spend more time whining than I do praising, but that's the nature of the beast: I'm a born whiner. wait, what?


That's the nature of internet discussion in general. It wouldn't be a new codex if people didn't whine.



> I do focus on the negative, but the list is, looking at the general feel absolutely perfect for BA (+successors), Khorn and Night Lords. That's really sweet. 3 dex's that desperately needed to be made, and now we have them. The fact that the successors and Chaos counts-as lists will want to make up their own codex cover that applies to their army won't matter, since no on wants to see that particular codex anyways (another whine thinly disguised as praise. whoops).


Chaos players should be psyched between this and the SW dex ;-)

Hell, I could see some tzeentch too.
Psychic dreads. Sternguard + Sanguinary Priest = Sons?

Hell, those priests are insane, place them right and for 150 points and one elites slot your whole army gets FC and FNP



> Raping other people's HQs is unfun. It's a poor use of design space.


Tell that to Orks, Chaos, Eldar...



> You can make someone a CC beast with "cool powers" without doing stupid stuff. You can make someone a baddass psycker without a) giving him powers that are not psyckic at all and b) without completely breaking the mold for "what the most powerfull psycker in the universe" can do.


Oddly, he's not even that powerful (psychically) anymore. Every other chief libby gets free reign with the chapter's power list, but for some reason they decided Mephy was a three trick pony. Granted, he makes up for it in other ways, but still



> As far as not getting dreadlocked, having the psychic power upgrade his weapon to also be a witchblade would have done a perfectly fine version of that. Witchblades with an I that beats that of the dread they're fighting or which are hitting WS-less vehicles already fuck them up royally.


First you're upset about stealing things from Eldar, now you wish we stole more?  The difference between giving S10 and treating it as a witchblade is negligible and helps to differentiate things. I can only imagine the eldar howling ("They've got skimmer transports, a Lance attack, psykers on Jetbikes, and Witchblades?!"



> As for the blood talons:
> Against most units you wound 35/36th of the time. You're basically rolling to hit until you roll misses equal to your A value. That was absurdly powerfull when swooping hawks did it, and they only wounded 1/2-1/3 of the time. I realized they wanted to make a really baddass Dread that owned infantry in HTH, but the level it's at seems uneccesary. They wanted to make it "properly" munch boyz mobs and nids, but with their lack of saves there's ways of making it do well against them without raping things with a decent armour save but smaller unit sizes. Make it increase it's init for chasing units down and double casualties it inflicts for "no surrender" instead of getting free attacks in, or just make it not ignore armour saves. The latter would be more solid mechanically but would favor 'rines a bit much. *shrugs*.


Or do like Gabriel "Leatherface" Seth and replace his Attacks in favor of auto-hititng everyone in B2B to limit the amount of damage he can do. Of course it's worth mentioning that you're giving up being able to take out vehicles for the ability to rape infantry. Not a huge sacrifice, but notable. I'm disappointed that they didn't bring back the old Furioso Tear Attack. Used to be Furiosos penetrated armor like MCs. Now we 'only' have 4 S10 attacks and a S8 AP1 Harpoon to take out vehicles. (oh, and a meltagun)


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Chaos players should be psyched between this and the SW dex ;-)


Damn right...ba and sw dexes are just so awesome, me and the few chaos players i know just love the rules and stuff. If i wasnt a fan of noise marine/oblit firepower, id prolly get one of these armies or mix them up with csm models and call them some renegade csm's.

Btw i sense fnp ba armies gona be popular;D


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Sanguinary Pruests as Slaaneshi drug pushers ;-)
They make everyione near them stronger, faster and immune to pain...sounds like the great pink one would approve of that.

You could even stretch it and use Sternguard for noise marines, really.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I have a question:

Are you certain that Mephiston may only use those three powers, and not the entire arrow of BA powers plus those unique ones, too?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I have a question:
> 
> Are you certain that Mephiston may only use those three powers, and not the entire arrow of BA powers plus those unique ones, too?


He doesn't have any unique psychic powers. He only has the three that Galahad mentions in the original post.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes, but my question was asking about his use of others. Are you certain he can only use those three and not the Ba general ones?

I am sure that you are, but I am just kind of hoping that there is small tiny little possibility that you could perhaps be mistaken, just so that the AWESOME Mephiston conversion I have made can be just that little bit more fucking beastly, by having the full range of powers.

Mainly because some of those BA powers are absolutely savage.

PS: I can't wait to start some Magna grapple/frag cannon conversions.

You damn well KNOW that the frag cannon is a total rip off of the "flak" cannon from unreal tournament. Which is damn well why it simply MUST be an inclusion in my army. It's an excuse to put a purely ork weapon in a BA army list.

FACT.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

can't get much better than a massive walking robot wielding a big ass gigantic shotgun. reminds me of ratchet and clank a bit too....


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Free drop pods though.


now this is getting better and better, a Fleet-based Chapter, with free Drop Pods...:victory::so_happy:k::biggrin:


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

WAT.

FREE?

I gotta get me a copy of this book.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Are you certain he can only use those three and not the Ba general ones?


Yes, absolutely 100% certain.

"Pysker: Mephiston knows the Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage and Wings of Sanguinius psychic powers (see page 63). He can use three psychic powers per turn.""


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Gal:

Well, raping things in CC by the simply expedient oh killing them is all fine and good. Frying their brain may be annoying, but it's a lead roll-off between LD10 models, and they can take cover+ invuln saves. Neutering their statline is a bit different.

As far as "stealing" witchblades, s10 weapons is basically stealing witchblades except for making them better. You can still use power weapons, are even better at popping vehicles, can ID things and still wound, say, Wraithlords on a 2+. The only thing stopping it from being strictly better is the fact that you have to worry about that 1/12 chance of ever failing a leadership test. or, hoods/RuWa, heh


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> now this is getting better and better, a Fleet-based Chapter, with free Drop Pods...:victory::so_happy:k::biggrin:





The Real Sanguinius said:


> WAT.
> 
> FREE?
> 
> I gotta get me a copy of this book.


That's ONLY for packless assault squads (who are not Fleet, Grishnak)
Assault squads who drop their packs get a 35 point discount on dedicated transports. That means free drop pods, 15-20 point rhinos and razors, and still bloody expensive land raiders. 

What's great though is that they're using C:SM pricing on those assautl squads, so the price difference is only +2/model over tacticals, so for at most 20 points you're getting 35 discounted.

Really, with 2 specials in assault squads, there's absolutely no reason to field tacticals anymore unless you just really like inefficient ways of fielding heavy weapons.

10 Assault Marines, PF, 2 Meltas, Rhino: 250
10 Tacticals, PF, Melta, Multimelta, Rhino: 250

The assault squad is *much* more effective in CC and is far more capable of breaking tanks thanks to being able to move and fire both meltas, even firing both out the top of the rhino. The only advantage of the tactical is in long range, which the fast transport pretty much mitigates.

By the way: Move 12" Fire 2 S8 AP1 melta shots every turn...yeah, Rhinos are gonna be fun.



Cyklown said:


> Gal:
> 
> Well, raping things in CC by the simply expedient oh killing them is all fine and good. Frying their brain may be annoying, but it's a lead roll-off between LD10 models, and they can take cover+ invuln saves. Neutering their statline is a bit different.


 Or being turned into a squig or chaos beast...

Yeah, one wipes a model outright and one causes a minor reduction of their fighting ability. Use your guy smartly and you're not in great danger.



> As far as "stealing" witchblades, s10 weapons is basically stealing witchblades except for making them better. You can still use power weapons, are even better at popping vehicles, can ID things and still wound, say, Wraithlords on a 2+. The only thing stopping it from being strictly better is the fact that you have to worry about that 1/12 chance of ever failing a leadership test. or, hoods/RuWa, heh


Yeah, Eldar players have no right bitching about how effective someone's psychic powers are when you make it essentially impossible to *use* the fucking things.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I personally still see the merit of tac squads. main thing is their main form of attack has ap while the assaults squad's don't. I will always have fire support from my tacs as I always have my assault squads with jump packs... Tis always been the way for me and it nearly always works....


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I agree with Lord Reevan.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

also an assault squad in a transport is an assault squad that's not at full potential. Disembark and they can't assault. the cheapness of transports are good but I don't think it justifies crippling them (crippling them in my eyes, I know plenty of people use them in transports to great effect, just not my cup of tea...)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Fair enough. Spacve wolves do well with the transported assaulty squads though. Generally I like to disembark far enough from the enemy that I can hide behind the tank and force them to go around it to assault me (which, if I guessed the distance right, denies them the chance), but close enough so that next turn I can drive the tank off and my boys have a straight line to the enemy.

That said, I generally favor jump packs in my BA armies, to the exclusion of tacticals or transports. I like my boys to be on the wing whenever possible, all the better to snatch objectives or redeploy if the situation goes sideways

Expect to see a speedy version of an armored spearhead becoming popular with BA. Balls and either Vindis or Preds forming an AV13 wall that can move at 12" and still fire, keeping a constant screen in place for the assault squads following in their wake. Throw in a couple podding furiosos, and maybe a transported deathco (too expensive to make them fly) and you're in business.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I said it once before already, but now I can say it again with way more certainty - this 'dex is going to catch out alot of less experienced (or more foolish) players.

There are some expensive (but really cool) stuff in there that is going to attract them, and they will end up wanting a little bit of everything (I know I do!), because it's all so cool.

Which means that after their Ds'ing LR and Mephiston, they have already spent half a ton of points.

You will see some total noobs out there fielding an "army" of a very small number of very expensive models. Just because they wanted a piece of all of the action, in all its BA-related flavours.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Yeah but that happens with every army that is either new or gets a revision/rewrite.

First game I played against my brother when he got the 'nid codex when it came out saw him fielding a trygon, a mawloc, a tyrannofex, the swarmlord, a hive tyrant, and some tyrant guard as he tried to cram ever cool thing he could. For the most part I mopped his forces up because he fell into the trap that so many people do, drawn in by all the goodies and cool things.


To say that this will happen to a fair number of less experienced players is likely true, but don't write them off as the only people it will happen to. Between this codex, codex Space Wolves, and the 'nids alone I know more than a dozen experienced players who struggled to not fall into that and largely did not succeed for a while.



That being said, I can see the draw of quite a few things in the codex but am happy to say that I only go for a little at a time. Hell in my current list, the only new thing its got running in it is a sanguinary priest to boost my un-packed assault squad.

Personally, I rather like having a tactical squad in my army, if only one; for the range or weight of fire bolters can bring over bolt pistols and access to the heavy weapon. Blood Angel assault squads are easily able to give their tactical squads a very big run for that troop slot, what with dual melta's and being able to take a 'dirt cheap' rhino or razorback that can zoom across the board, but the tactical squad will always have its place and uses; if for the Blood Angels as more of a sit on the home objective unit and be tougher than scouts.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It's basicaly the same trap that existed in C:SM "Ironclads and venerable dreads and techmarines with super-cannons, and biker troops, and these cool new scout bikers, and, and TWO kinds of veterans!"


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I'm definitely going to be fielding a lot of the new stuff. not all at once but over the course of around 6 games everything in that codex wil be fielded by me Simply because I like giving everything a chance. every unit has a use in my book. I will constantly test units to find that out. whether it be against a few test games with myself or in proper games I will give them all a fair shot...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Will you be testing the Deathmob?
I must admit, 30 screaming deathco troopers IS tempting, especially given bolters and as many powerfists as you can scrape up. Throw in Lemartes for shits and giggles. Of course, that's about half your points for an average sized list...to say nothing of a FLYING deathmob


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

A flying deathmob that can DS and scatter only d6...........


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I did the points on one of those mobs, thirty strong plus Lem, all with jump packs, four fists, two power weapons, a pair of infernus pistols and four hand flamers or something to that degree. It came out to nearly 1500 points for the one unit, and I just felt disgusted looking at that.

Deadly as all hell, expensive too; will rip through anything that gets hit by the unit; but 1500pts for that unit alone, and you can toss in more close combat stuff to make it more expensive. I shudder at the thought.


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## AledM (Jan 10, 2009)

For the record guys, I had a good hard read of the codex and one thing I have noticed is that everyone seems to have the Descent of Angels thing wrong. At the start of the codex with all the army special rules the entry for DoA states nowhere that units with jump packs get the rule automatically which we all assume when we talk about vanguard vets and Death company.

The rule is only applicable to the units with the acutal rule on their profile making vanguard vets for example, just as overpriced (in my opinion) as they were in C:SM....

Someone please correct me if i'm wrong .... people that own copies of the codex already please check this....because I really anted to use some vanguard vets :no:


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

As I understood it, if you read the wargear list and find the jump pack entry, it states that all units with a jump pack get DoA.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> As I understood it, if you read the wargear list and find the jump pack entry, it states that all units with a jump pack get DoA.


This is correct.

"... In addition, a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule (see page 23)."


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Everyone thinks that VgVet's are over-priced, and it may be true. But I think that they are one unit I would consider. I like the heroic intervention rule, especially with DoA.

It could pay off.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Everyone thinks that VgVet's are over-priced, and it may be true. But I think that they are one unit I would consider. I like the heroic intervention rule, especially with DoA.

It could pay off.


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## Sanguinary Dan (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm still a huge fan of Jump Pack troops and can't imagine that changing. To me the RAS on foot has one job. To provide infantry support to the Land Raider they just saved me 35 points off the price. Otherwise the only time I would bring VAS/RAS is with their packs.

Though it is a good way to add some serious anti-tank firepower to low PV games. A 5 man RAS with discounted Razorback is a good point filler.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, they're overpriced normally. They pay for a potentially gamebreaking ability (so GW upped their cost) that no one wants to use because it's a hideous gamble that generally just gets them kacked. With said hideous gamble be actually reasonable (ie, now it's "you can risk a mishap and therefore eliminate most of the odds of you winding up alone and in the open, OR you can risk getting stranded but probably not mishap) it's a bit more reasonable.

It doesn't really change the fact that you're rather drop something in and shoot the bejesus out of things instead. I mean, can they even take chainfists or equivilant? If they swiped eviscrators from Sisters then maybe it'd be schweet, but otherwise you'd probably rather have a meltagun shot or three, what with the incredibly contageous metal-box-itis going around.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

No chainfists, and no meltaguns. Though you can waste points on an infernus pistol

Frankly, I think Honour Guard make scarier drop troops. Four meltaguns (five if the novitiate counts as an HG) deepstriking into the middle of the enemy's armored section. Toss in a PF or two for S9 Furious Charges to finish off.

Only problem is you want to keep those grails close to your lines

RAS are scary too, with two meltas and the sarge's fist.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

It's a shame they stopped selling the BA honour guard boxed set.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I blame the prodigal Tech Adept. No place for him in the new dex


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> I blame the prodigal Tech Adept. No place for him in the new dex


He's pictured in the Codex as a Techmarine with a jump pack. Maybe they plan to rerelease the Honor Guard down the road?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I guess that it would be pretty damn easy to convert one from the command boxed set.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Quality review (hits favouritise) but I can't see why so much annoyance over some things (lack of Chapter Master, no all-Bike armies etc)

BA aren't a normal Chapter. There's no reason for them to get the same in ANY area, really.

Also, two other things:
IIRC, Razor weapons are slightly more expensive? I may be wrong there - but I recall getting that impression.

Secondly (and you'll all hate me for this...)
Transports. Tac/Ass Squads can choose a Dedicated Transport (see page 90). Terminators can choose a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (see page 91). Not QUITE the same there Gal.

Def implication that Tac/Ass squads cannot take Raiders. Also, I am pretty sure that Termies cannot have Pods. 



I await your robust rebuttal, o article author.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Does is specifically mention what dedicated transports they can take? (trac/ass)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

gen.ahab said:


> Does is specifically mention what dedicated transports they can take? (trac/ass)


Naw, just refers you to a page. It's debatable how they intended the rule to work, so best to ask your tournament organizer or roll off with your opponent in friendlies until an FAQ.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Rolling off is too late - you can't carry two entire armies (a LR based one, and a Razor based one) to every game based on a 50-50 chance.

It's a colossal cock-up by GW. Again. Yay.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

TheKingElessar said:


> Quality review (hits favouritise) but I can't see why so much annoyance over some things (lack of Chapter Master, no all-Bike armies etc)
> 
> BA aren't a normal Chapter. There's no reason for them to get the same in ANY area, really.


You've entirely missed my point. I don't care that we're not the same. I do care that we're unequal.

Our captains cost the same, but DON'T come with any special rules, so we're paying the same price for less. I could give a shit about biker armies, there should have been some *other*, more BA specific rule to take its place. (like if JP is taken on a captain you can have HG as troops, or somesuch.) That or it should cost less. They have the same stats, same cost, but one has a special rule and the other does not.

And the lack of a chapter master character is just plain and simple lack of common sense. BA, different though they are, DO have chapter masters, as evidenced by Dante and Seth. So what do I do if I have a successor chapter and want to make a chapter master for them?

I have to either rebrand dante or seth, or tart up a Captain. Every other SM chapter gets to make homebrew master-level characters. I hardly see "BA are cool and different" as explaining why their successors can't have unique chapter masters. Are the Lamenters lead by a clone of Dante or Seth? how about the Knights of Blood or Angels Vermillion? Were their commanders demoted to Captain status?

Also, while BA are *somewhat different*, they're actually the MOST codex-adherent of the major non-nilla chapters as far as their organization goes. Space wolves, obviously, completely ignore the codex astartes. The Dark Angels are largely codex adherent but their ravenwing and deathwing are major divergences, along with their heirarchy and internal organization (due to their secrecy). Templars are just plain weird, fighting alongside their novices in big mixed units and the like.

Blood Angels actually follow the codex astartes to an amazingly high degree. In reality, it's only their general tactics and combat philosophy that differs from the norm, their genetic quirks aside. For example, it even states in the new Codex that they -as a chapter- have the same maximum number of assault squads as any the codex astartes demands. They just implement them more readily and are never short of volunteers so their assault company is *always* at full strength (while other chapters let them dwindle to keep up numbers in their tactical squads). Their bikers (though unpopular) are kept because of the codex, and just as the codex astartes lays out, they are drawn from the assault company (which is why there are so few of them because most BA prefer to fly). Likewise, with the exception of the death company and sanguinary priests (founded out of necessity) and a couple vehicle variants (which we found/developed and kept to ourselves) we haven't got any units that the regular marines don't. Sanguinary guard are just our version of the Honour Guards 'Nillas get. Furiosos and Baals are odd, but not really major divergences (furiosos are our version of venerable dreads). Theoretically Stormravens are something new to the empire as a whole, and I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got them soon.

So really, there's no reason for us NOT to have all the same stuff the vanilla chapters have. BA are, on the whole, about 99% codex adherent. 



> Also, two other things:
> IIRC, Razor weapons are slightly more expensive? I may be wrong there - but I recall getting that impression.


Nope. TLHF is free, the others all cost the same as C:SM



> Secondly (and you'll all hate me for this...)
> Transports. Tac/Ass Squads can choose a Dedicated Transport (see page 90). Terminators can choose a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (see page 91). Not QUITE the same there Gal.
> 
> Def implication that Tac/Ass squads cannot take Raiders.


Huh? I'm really not sure what you're getting at there.
Tacts, Assault (and HG, and Sternguard, and Deathco, and Vanguard, and devs) all say that they may select "ANY" Dedicated transport.
Land raiders are listed under Dedicated Transports.

There's no implication whatsoever. You can take any dedicated transport.

Termies list land raiders specifically because they cannot ride in rhinos or razorbacks.

There's no debate, no ambiguity or lack of clarity, no need to roll off.
Can you take ANY dedicated Transport? Yes.
Are Land Raiders a Dedicated Transport? Yes.

Why does it say P90? Because that's where the Dedicated transport section begins.
Why does the term squad reference P91? Because they're limited to land raiders, and that's where land raiders are listed.
It's a reference, not a limitation. It dpoesn't say "You may take any dedicated transport *on* page 90"

Nothing about "(see page 90)" counteracts "ANY dedicated transport"


> Also, I am pretty sure that Termies cannot have Pods.


You got me there. I assumed they could have pods, didn;t think to double check. They are in fact limited to teleporting or simply DSing inside a land raider.



> I await your robust rebuttal, o article author.


Have fun with that.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I can't argue semantics without the book in front of me. Your judgement is usually sound...but I will, for the meantime at least, maintain that my stated viewpoint is valid.
April 3rd isn't far away, after all.

I don't actually see the BA as any more Codex adherent than the DA, just that they hide it better. Ofc, I haven't read all the retconned fluff in the new book, perhaps it contradicts me, but I see them not sharing their vastly improved engine blocks, fielding armies of Jump packs, making much more extensive use of Psykers, a Company of Veteran Assault Marines, (possibly) using Tactical Squad Land Raiders, having Flamer Predators etc etc as at least as major a divergence as 2 DA Companies and the DA Command Structure.

I see the Chapter master option in the SM Dex purely there to compensate for the 'DIY Chapter' shenanigans GW loves so much - BA play in 'x' way, not 'a', 'b', 'c' through 'L' ways and so subbing a named character, while unfortunate, is hardly critical. Idk if the DA get Chapter Masters, but I'd hazard that they don't. They have as many successors as the BA, at the very least. I certainly see the point, but I don't think it's truly a big issue given the number of players who play BA Successors that aren't FT. Plus, ofc, the fact that GW wants us to buy shiny metal Special Characters because they make a tidy profit when we do.

RE Ravens, I think the BA only get them because of this 'mastery of the skies' lark, the GK will be the only other Imp Dex to get them. I may be wrong.

Regarding Captains, again, I see the point. Without long enough to play with the Dex and unlock it some, I can't see a reason to ever use one over a Libby. Not one.
That's not to say that wasn't GW's intent, however. The BA clearly have Captains in the Chapter - but the fact is that they aren't very common on major theatres because the BA's elite style lends itself better to support 'leaders' such as a Chappy or Libby...or whatever. Certainly paying the same points but not getting any buff to replace the lost buff seems harsh at first glance - but bike armies wouldn't fit the ethos of BA and so it was clearly out. HG as Troops neuters Dante as a viable choice and thereby his profitability. Perhaps this was playtested in and removed late on in the process. That said, the lack of Combat Tactics changes your playstyle as BA sufficiently that a Captain, if taken, fills a wholly different role for BA.

Again, with your clearly greater familiarity with the Dex (or rather, my lack of adequate time with it) I cannot formulate a suitable argument to convey my feelings on this matter - lack of examples makes me sad. As you know, I am more than opinionated enough to let you know when I can articulate the ideas sufficiently. lol


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, I can't argue semantics without the book in front of me. Your judgement is usually sound...but I will, for the meantime at least, maintain that my stated viewpoint is valid.
> April 3rd isn't far away, after all.


Suffice to say, the wording says 'any dedicated transport' and then goes on to reference p90 because it;s the beginning of the dedicated transport section. Nothing in the wording puts a limit on it (quite the opposite since it says 'any') and to me at least there was no inference or confusion. But people read rules in different ways.



> I don't actually see the BA as any more Codex adherent than the DA, just that they hide it better. Ofc, I haven't read all the retconned fluff in the new book, perhaps it contradicts me,


Actually, through the years the fluff has always been pretty consistent on the fact that the BA are a largely codex adherent chapter. That's not to say that game-mechanics eise their stuff is all the same, but as far as the fluff goes, their organization and layout has been strictkly according to the Codex Astartes since the legion was broken up. Far moreso than the DA. If you go back to the old 2nd ed angels of death codex you can see the marked differences in their chapter organization, with BA following strictly along the lines of the codex astartes.



> but I see them not sharing their vastly improved engine blocks,


That comes down to a quibble between them and the admech. Nothing to do with the tennants of the codex astartes. During the great crusade (before the codex was established) the BA legion discovered the STC for Baal predators and chose to keep it for themselves rather than turn it over to the Admech. Their engine tech was reverse engineered from that. It doesn't have any impact on their chapter organization, just some of their available technological assets. The vehicles are governed by the same strictures as other chapters, though their implementation is somewhat different.



> fielding armies of Jump packs,


As I said, they have no more jump troops than they are allowed by the strictures of the codex. They're just more willing to rely on them and always have them at full strength while other chapters may not. The codex governs the chapter's organization and resources, but it doesn't have as much say over their battlefield tactics.

They still have assault squads, they still have bike squads, those units are filled from the same company with the same limitations on their number as any other chapter.




> making much more extensive use of Psykers,


Except for the librarian furiosos (which are new and, strictly speaking, nothing that any other chapter shouldn't be able to do, like the stormravens), they don;t have any more use of librarians than other chapter



> a Company of Veteran Assault Marines,


No, they have a company of veteran *marines* just like any other chapter.
Vanguard, Honorguard, Sternguard, Terminators, they're all chosen from the chapter's first company just like all the other chapters. And before they join the sanguinary guard that's where they come from too. Every other chapoter has veterans with jump packs. The only difference is we allow our command squads and honour guards access to them while others give theirs bikes.



> (possibly) using Tactical Squad Land Raiders,


You can put tactical squads in land raiders for any other chapter...

How the army list FOC is organized is more a function of game mechanics than anything. BA have JP troops not because they have more JPs but because they make more extensive use of them.



> having Flamer Predators


Again, that's a result of their discovery of the baal pred STC and their not turning it over to the admech. It's a unique resource, but it's organized and administrated per the strictures of the codex.



> etc etc as at least as major a divergence as 2 DA Companies and the DA Command Structure.


I think you're confusing the codex astartes and the contents of the space marine codex. The codex astartes is a set of rules laid down that govern the structure, resources, numbers, basic tactics and organization of SM chapters.

If you bother to read the fluff (and I've read all of it from the 2nd ed Angels of Death onwards) you'd know that the BA adhere very firmly to the codex astartes principles.

They have two unique vehicles (due to their discovery of the STC and not any special divergence from the codex), one unique class of priests, and one unique unit (due to their genetic nature) and that's it. They are organized the same as any other chapter, have the same rules regarding their organization and resources, etc.

I'm not saying they;re as dead on as the ultras, but I am saying that there's no reason why they shouldn't have the same basic stuff (which they do, by and large)

Having one or two unique units doesn't mean that "there's no reason for them to have ANY of the same things as normal marines"
you know, like chapter masters (which they HAVE)



> I see the Chapter master option in the SM Dex purely there to compensate for the 'DIY Chapter' shenanigans GW loves so much - BA play in 'x' way, not 'a', 'b', 'c' through 'L' ways and so subbing a named character, while unfortunate, is hardly critical. Idk if the DA get Chapter Masters, but I'd hazard that they don't. They have as many successors as the BA, at the very least. I certainly see the point, but I don't think it's truly a big issue given the number of players who play BA Successors that aren't FT. Plus, ofc, the fact that GW wants us to buy shiny metal Special Characters because they make a tidy profit when we do.


Space wolves have generic master-level characters.

There's no difference between a DIY chapter and a DIY successor chapter. I'm right to be upset that DIY successors were neglected.

There's absolutely no organizational reason for BA not to have chapter masters, especially when it's established by the unique characters thatthere are multiple chapter masters.



> RE Ravens, I think the BA only get them because of this 'mastery of the skies' lark, the GK will be the only other Imp Dex to get them. I may be wrong.


Actually, the fluff says that they make heavy *use* of them because of their mastery of the skies, but says clearly that they were not designed by them and are not unique to the BA. They're new is all, the admech has only just recently released the design and began mass producing them. The bit about the GK is a rumor that the GK had access top them *before* their introduction to the forces of the imperium as a whole. Nothing in their fluff says they are unique to the BA.



> Regarding Captains, again, I see the point. Without long enough to play with the Dex and unlock it some, I can't see a reason to ever use one over a Libby. Not one.
> That's not to say that wasn't GW's intent, however. The BA clearly have Captains in the Chapter - but the fact is that they aren't very common on major theatres because the BA's elite style lends itself better to support 'leaders' such as a Chappy or Libby...or whatever. Certainly paying the same points but not getting any buff to replace the lost buff seems harsh at first glance - but bike armies wouldn't fit the ethos of BA and so it was clearly out. HG as Troops neuters Dante as a viable choice and thereby his profitability. Perhaps this was playtested in and removed late on in the process. That said, the lack of Combat Tactics changes your playstyle as BA sufficiently that a Captain, if taken, fills a wholly different role for BA.


I'm not sure where you;re coming from here.
I was complaining that our captains don;t get special rules while theirs do but they cost the same.
Nothing says BA captains are uncommon in the fluff. You;re confusing chapter organization and popularity of list design. The HG thing was just a random suggestion on my part. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously, just an example of some sort of special rule we could have had in place.



> Again, with your clearly greater familiarity with the Dex (or rather, my lack of adequate time with it) I cannot formulate a suitable argument to convey my feelings on this matter - lack of examples makes me sad. As you know, I am more than opinionated enough to let you know when I can articulate the ideas sufficiently. lol


It's not so much familiarity with the new dex as familiarity with the BA as a whole.

I've been playing them since second edition.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Multi-quoting hurts my brain.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Even if it is fluffy, I'm a little annoyed that BA's get sternguard and vanguard. Especially Sternguard. That unit is in my opinion one of the only and best reasons to play a C:SM over the varient chapters. The BA's get a ton of cool things a C:SM chapter doesn't, and yes the C:SM get things the BA's don't, but Sternguard were the unit in my opinion that really made them shine. 

For me, I can't really see a reason to use C:SM anymore now that I can take Sternguard along with all the nifty BA toys. I guess only if I want to use one of the special characters in C:SM and base an army around them.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

You forget that you have to take up an Elite slot with sternguard.

There is so much other awesome stuff in the BA codex Elite section that I would be surprised if many people would rather take sternguard over some of the other options.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

The option is still there. 

And based on Gal's review, (I have not read the book yet), but I wouldn't be surprised if you almost never see Chaplains or Sanguinary Guard taken after the excitement of the codex wears off. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone use a techmarine in an elite slot, leaving Priests, Terms, Sternguard and Furioso's. My predicition is you will see sternguard used more often then you think.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Perhaps.

I wouldn't rule out chappy's or SG very quickly. Granting FNP and FC is no trivial matter.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> I wouldn't rule out chappy's or SG very quickly. Granting FNP and FC is no trivial matter.


San Guard don't grant FNP and FC, the priests do. The priests will def be used and you can have 3 for one slot. It's possible, but I doubt people will use more then one slot on San priests. 

The San guard are the winged mastercrafted weapon guys with arty armor. Nice sounding yes, but at only str 4 and if I remember correctly limited to only 5 guys, they will be best used for hunting other elite units.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Sorry, I was getting the names mixed up.

I totally agree with you on those.

I think, however, the story would be totally different if Dante was included. Taking them as a troop slot is way more appealing.

For those of you interested, I have started a thread on my BA and a mephiston conversion.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58890

Hopefully there are some people out there that hate the Mephy mini as much as I do.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Here's my take on tlites slots and how they'll be used.

#1 Sanguinary Priests.
This is mandatory. Every BA lost not run by a goldfish will use at least one elites slot so they can take 1-3 walking fuck-you-fields and give their whole army FNP and FC

#2 Furioso Dreads. Once the novelty wears off, these may drop down to #3 but they will remain popular. Either as alternative librarians, infantry-shreading machiens, or walking tankbusters, there's basically nothing you can't do with this unit, and at AV13, you don't even *need* to spring for a DP (though I still suggest it for anything but flying libby dreads)

#3 (assuming you don't have 2 furiosos) Either Terminators or Nippleguard. The units cost the same and have a similar battlefield role. SG are essentially a third type of terminator. While there's a lot of novelty involved in the beautiful minis, I think even after it wears off, people will come to realize that point for point, SG are the best vet-level assault unit we have. 40 for a vet with JP, arty armor, PW and a cut down SB, or 35 for a naked HG, VV, or DC with a pack? HG have the best options, VV and DC both have cool rules, but to tool them up enough to make them useful end sup running into far more cost than an effective unit of SG with masks and a fist or two

#4 Terminators or SG again. People who don't like SG will take terminators first, people who don't like Terms will take SG first, but either one will likely take the other unit as a second choice.

#5 Sternguard. No offense, Sternies are cool, but they don't fit well with the general BA aesthetic or tactics. They are awkward to master as well. Unless you pod them, they're hard to figure out. Do you leave them stationary to make the most of their firepower? Generally you don't want to leave non scoring units sitting around since they can't camp objectives.Do you transport them? If you do you're giving up their firepower for as long as it takes to reach the target and you're either trusting them to a rhino or paying out the nose for a raider.

If you do pod them, you might be better off just dropping a tooled up HG on the target instead. Four meltaguns (or plasma guns backed up by FNP) falling from the heavens with insanely close DS scatter can inflict as much or more damage in many cases as a band of Sternies for the same points. 5 sternies in a pod is only slightly cheaper than 5 HG with packs, and once you pay for combi-weapons and/or extra men you're not saving much and you're essentially building a one-shot team that expend all their combi weapons on the first turn after they land, then slowly slog to a secondary target.

Meanwhile the HG can pop their targets then get up and jet away and repeat as many times as needed. ANd with FNP they've got essentialy 50% more wounds. You'd need 7 or 8 SG to have the amount of damage soak as 5 HG, and that's not taking into account the fact you'll be exposed to fire longer, being slower. 

The Sternguard are basically competing against both the elites AND the Honour Guard.

#6 Chaplains. You'll see them a lot initially but once the novelty fades you won't likely see them. Chaplains used to be mandatory for BA, and being able to use an elites slot to take one to lead your DC would have been a godsend back in the day. But now the DC are both optional and uncontrollable, AND have their own chappy upgrade (though he's only any good if you take packs or feel like walking), the need for chaplains is a lot less. They're now a really good upgrade character for assaulty squads, but when you can have an SP for half they're not so attractive. Sure, the chaplain has an extra wound and bolsters his unit nicely, but the SP grants FNP and FC (more attractive than fearless and rerolls on the charge, IMO), costs half as much, and you can have three of them for one slot. 

Plus, for those who really want chaplains, they'll likely pay the extra points for a reclusiarch instead and save the elites slot

#7 Techmarines. Pffffft. Nobody takes techs. Maybe if you're using BA to represent some dread/mech heavy chapter (Iron Hands, Iron Warriors) or Sallies (hey we have a lot of flame weapons and mobile melta) and they want them for flavor or tech support, you're not likely to see them.

Chances are sternies are not going to be appearing in many BA lists, even once the novelty of the new units wears off.

As for mephy conversions, you aren't alone









Remind me sometime to take less shitty pictures of him


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but my sternguard generally perform better than my terms. Plus with the Priests, I'm salavating over giving them FNP. 9 Sternguard in a pod with a priest with combi's (don't forget if you want you can take up to two regular specials, you just pay for special ammo rule for nothing then). 

I do agree that Sternguard don't fit with the BA feel, which is why it's annoying they got them. They really are one of the keystones I base my C:SM armies around. Maybe they won't be used as much in BA's but the option does take away the uniqueness of them in C:SM.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I still say for the price, four HG specials and packs can pull off the same role as a Sternir podsquad. Less dakka than a full ten, but cheaper by half


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

So they gave BA some other toy that's even cuter for vehicle popping. Great.

His point is that he wishes they hadn't given BA Sterns. If they aren't going to get as much from them then they could have removed them without it costing the BA much.

It's about respecting the codices that haven't gotten love recently.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

No, it's about realising that BA are very close to being a strict codex chapter, as there are only a few differences, and thus shouldn't not get units that are perfectly fine for a codex chapter to take.

There is literally _no_ fluff reason why BA shouldn't get sternguard. They have a full 100 marine strong veteran company, after all.

Do you expect them ALL to be VV and Terms? I don't think so.

Please feel free to stop leaking eldar related bitterness all over totally un-eldar related threads, any time you like.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Well maybe they're in for subchapters and that kind of style. Successor chapters that make extensive use of both types of infnatry both ranged and asaulty. I personally will give them a shot but I don't expect much from them For all the reasons that galahad said. 

About the deathmob I probably won't use that giant squad but I will definitely use a squad of them.... maximum 15 'd say... 


and about that whole codex adherance thingy - sanguinary priests are the apothecaries so they are the same as from a standard chapter. they just have different or more services to the chapter. Like the techmarines of iron hands are chaplains as well... I personally would like to see the captaisn either cheaper or made someway better as they're weaker than the SM captains but do less... even something like a free power weapon would be good....


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> No, it's about realising that BA are very close to being a strict codex chapter, as there are only a few differences, and thus shouldn't not get units that are perfectly fine for a codex chapter to take.
> 
> There is literally _no_ fluff reason why BA shouldn't get sternguard. They have a full 100 marine strong veteran company, after all.
> 
> ...


By this logic they should have thunderfire cannons, venerable dreads, and relic blades. What about scout landspeeders? You are saying they should get everything in the C:SM plus new stuff unique to them. 

What's the point of a C:SM at all then? There has to be something unique to the C:SM codex otherwise why would anyone play it in favor of a BA, BT, DA, or SW codex army.

Sternguard were unique to C:SM, were one of the things that made people use that codex (since they are one of the best unique items/units in the codex), and don't fit well with BA's theme. That is what I'm saying. Now that BA's have sternguard, I have a lot less reason to play C:SM ever again since I have their option in the BA codex plus a ton of others.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

They don't need venerable dreads in flulff terms - they have plenty of dread options that would fall into a veteran category.

Relic blades, fluff wise, are just the same as a power glaive.

Thunderfire cannon - no idea why it isn't there. Perhaps it should be.

Scout landspeeders are probably not there because BA scouts have totally different fluff to a normal chapter.

There is literally no fluff related thing to give a reason why BA shouldn't have sternguard.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I really don't think you got my point. At all. If you give everything plus new stuff to BA's whats the point of using or even having C:SM?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Why should the release of a new codex be about not having things that's in a codex that already exists?

By that logic, GK shouldn't have 90% of the stuff they have, because it's already in C:SM

Rubbish.

There are bucketloads of stuff in C:SM that isn't in the BA 'dex. If anything, they bare very little resemblance of each other. The C:SM loses nothing, just because codex BA has sternguard, too.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

(generic) Chapter Masters, (traditional) Honour Guard, Biker Command Squads, Master of the Forge, Hellfire Heavy Bolters on scouts, about a half dozen pieces of cool wargear for captains and masters (aux grenade launchers, digital weapons, hellfire bolts, etc) Relic Blades, Bikes as Troops, special Scout and Vehicle upgrade characters, Venerable Dreads, Ironclad Dreads, Legion of the Damned, Land Speeder Storms, Thunderfire Cannon...

That's at least a dozen things regular SM have, not counting unique HQ characters, that C:BA doesn't have.

Most of the "Awesome new stuff" *replaces* stuff that C:SM had.

I think if you compared them closely you'll find they have about the sane number of units and options (sang guard, jp command squads, reclusiarch, furiosos, libby dreads, sang priests, baal preds, fast tanks, jp troops, Deathco, DC dreads, stormraven)

Seems like there's as many reasons to play C:SM as there are to play C:BA


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I agree with Gal here. They do have new stuff and old stuff, but all in all, they still are a codex adhereing chapter, the Red Thirst and Black Rage are the biggest differences.


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

here, have some +rep. An awesome article.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Good review/summary of the new BA book. Much appreciated. I would like to see the F-bombs tonned down a bit, seemed a little unneccesary and probably not the best for our younger gamers.

All in all, very useful.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

The thing I noticed is how much more entertaining this codex will be for someone who wants to run pre-heresy World Eaters. The differences between this codex and the White Dwarf codex are huge from a flavor perspective in my opinion.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Crimzzen said:


> Much appreciated. I would like to see the F-bombs tonned down a bit, seemed a little unneccesary and probably not the best for our younger gamers.
> 
> All in all, very useful.


While I can understand where you're coming from, I'd like to refer you to the forum/website rules. There are some of us who don't consider cursing to be a whole lot beyond a viable aspect of the english language.
:shrugs:

As far as things go, I can see them being a codex chapter and wanting them to still get the codex toys, but getting one of the few "we get this one elites unit that lets us outshoot just about anything else at elites" when you get the other gribblies just seems a bit unfair to a newish codex that is already outshone by the other chapter that isn't represented by C:SM.

As for Eldar bitterness: if that was really the motivating factor, I wouldn't be rushing to the Smurfs defense, would I? I Mean, they have a FA choice that's a closed top av10 fast skimmer that deepstrikes. They can give it a MM and HF for 75 points unless they've change it since C:BT. Theres plenty of bitterness to go around, but it's not really what's coming up when I discuss things that I see as being something that I think they should have done a tad bit differently.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Crimzzen said:


> Good review/summary of the new BA book. Much appreciated. I would like to see the F-bombs tonned down a bit, seemed a little unneccesary and probably not the best for our younger gamers.
> 
> All in all, very useful.


Fair enough.
The general tone of Heresy is that we're primarily an adult community and therefore we treat our members as adults and expect them to behave as adults, even if they're not. Adults curse. As such, we do allow mild and moderate use of explicit language in our posts. I'll agree that "Mephiston: Lord of Skullfucking Death" may be pushing the 'mild and moderate' boundary a little, but he's earned the title and it;s how I always refer to the chief librarian of the blood angels, out of my respect for his power ;-)

That said, I've found that young people are just fine with profanity, they love it even. A popular song at my grade school back when I was a nipper went along the lines of...


Fuck, fuck, fuck a duck/
screw a kangaroo/
Finger-bang an orang-utan/
It's at your local zoo!
 very popular. Practically replaced the third grade fight song. And that was before the internet, even.

Their parents, on the other hand...<shrugs> Their parents are adults, fully capable and empowered to make their own decisions about what they want their kids exposed to. It's not my job to raise their little nurglings 

But I do respect your views on the subject and appreciate your feedback. I don't personally feel the language content was excessive, but I'll keep it in mind for the future. However, the focus at heresy will always be on fostering the more grown-up atmosphere, rather than making grown adults tiptoe around a handfull of arbitrary words to maintain an illusion that we're kiddie-friendly. That's what makes us cooler than the other boards 




Cyklown said:


> As far as things go, I can see them being a codex chapter and wanting them to still get the codex toys, but getting one of the few "we get this one elites unit that lets us outshoot just about anything else at elites" when you get the other gribblies just seems a bit unfair to a newish codex that is already outshone by the other chapter that isn't represented by C:SM.


As I pointed out earlier, there are just as many (or more) things that C:BA doesn't have access to from C:SM as there are new things we have that they don't. Picking on one particular unit doesn't really make sense. You may as well complain that they have scouts, or tactical squads or devastators. They're all standard SM unit types that every codex adherent chapter should have.

When C:SM came out they retconned Sternguard as part of standard codex astartes veterans of the first company. Blood Angels adhere to the codex astartes to a very high degree. To not include them would require further retcon, fluff revision and other such nonsense. Sternguard are just veterans. Every company has veterans. Why would blood angels not have veterans, or why would their veterans only have jump packs and melee weapons when vets are allowed to chose their own armament?

There's just as much reason for BA to have sternguard as there is for them to have chaplains, tactical squad, bikers, or any other standard unit.



> As for Eldar bitterness: if that was really the motivating factor, I wouldn't be rushing to the Smurfs defense, would I? I Mean, they have a FA choice that's a closed top av10 fast skimmer that deepstrikes. They can give it a MM and HF for 75 points unless they've change it since C:BT. Theres plenty of bitterness to go around, but it's not really what's coming up when I discuss things that I see as being something that I think they should have done a tad bit differently.


Fair enough. I just heard a lot of kvetching about how they;ve stolen this and stolen that from eldar. It was wrong of me to assume your bitterness was entirely eldar-derived rather than a general, all-encompassing bitterness 

In any event, I think the codex is well balanced. It's more *interesting* than C:SM, but I don't think more powerful, especially when you tally up the points. We pay for all our cool stuff, at a premium. It's certainly no C:SW where everything was cooler, better *and* cheaper.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Quick question for you Gal,

Do San Guard and Black co have Sargs? I'm thinking Sanguinors ability would be best used on one of those units if they do.

Maybe I missed it, San Priests can or cannot take a JP?

Does Corby have JP access?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Siphon said:


> Quick question for you Gal,


More than one! 



> Do San Guard and Black co have Sargs? I'm thinking Sanguinors ability would be best used on one of those units if they do.


You mean Death co?
But no. Nippleguard have no sarges, nether do deathco.

Vanguard sternguard and termies do though



> Maybe I missed it, San Priests can or cannot take a JP?


Yeah, they get the standard IC equipment options, which includes JP and Bike



> Does Corby have JP access?


Sadly, no. But he's good to toss into a transport or added to a footy squad.

Fortunately, since you can buy other SPs with the same slot it;s not as big a deal to have him away from the front lines. His buddies can buff your front line while corbsy slogs along with the rear guard.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

I post from work. Half the stuff here I can't mention due to nondisclosure agreements (very petty, smallminded ones at that) and the other half you'd write off as urban legends. Helpdesk is... a magical, magical place. The trick is to force all the bitterness out onto others, so that I have nothing but a nice bastion of happy-place to reside in when I walk out. If it's any consolation, this is the version where I delete 2/3 of what I say. You should hear me in my work's smokers' shelter.

Plus I enjoy excercising my exaguration and hyperbole abilities to the fullest. Text is a bit harder to convey that through than tone is.

If Sternguard are just "these are veterans, this is why some people volunteer for a job that doesn't involve a thunderhammer and a stormshield" types then that's perfectly reasonable. Obscene, but reasonable. 


Maybe they could have just, I don't know, overpriced them compared to C:BA, or if they failed to do that just throw so many cool options there that they'll rarely get fielded. Oh, wait... Um, Rifleman Dreads no longer compete with Sternguard. There's a build, somewhere in there...


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

They are identical to VgVet's in that respect.


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## Zodd (Jul 27, 2009)

When waiting for the new codex, this is very comforting summary. From my point of view, it seems that GW actually have made some needed improvements. RAS have more choice of weapons, as do the DC. As i usually fight low points game;1000p-1250p it will be nice, that they now can support themselves, mostly RAS. DC will just scare everybody even more now. More types of Dreads to be podded were needed, but i am wondering; they still DS as before ? No arrival in 1st turn ?
And all "Rhino-types" are fast k:
And with all the new minis with new weapon-combos I can look forward to a lot of modelling. And maybee best of all, with a proper Codex i can now try my luck, in our biggest annual turnament. The PDF was not allowed, you had to use C.SM if you wanted to paticipate. No way. 
But with this the sun is shining. At least when we reach april 3rd.:biggrin:
Thanks Gal.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> They are identical to VgVet's in that respect.


Except Vanguard Vets were quite EXPLICITLY made with Descent of Angels in mind.

Hell, I know the chronology doesn't work out, but I'd say that there's a solid case for BA players to get mad at C:SM for stealing Vanguard Vets from them (intervention! yes!) and then using them so terribly that they're really bad. I mean, trying to do that without descent of angels? Who here wants to throw a (very small) part of their 1st company away!? Woo!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Lol, a tenuous link.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Fair enough.
> The general tone of Heresy is that we're primarily an adult community and therefore we treat our members as adults and expect them to behave as adults, even if they're not. Adults curse. As such, we do allow mild and moderate use of explicit language in our posts. I'll agree that "Mephiston: Lord of Skullfucking Death" may be pushing the 'mild and moderate' boundary a little, but he's earned the title and it;s how I always refer to the chief librarian of the blood angels, out of my respect for his power ;-)
> 
> That said, I've found that young people are just fine with profanity, they love it even. A popular song at my grade school back when I was a nipper went along the lines of...
> ...


I agree, Heresy's policy on language does differ from other sites and does set us apart from them (in a good way) I'm just looking out for the site. I would like to see it continue to grow and attract new gamers and just want to make sure we're able to encompass all types of interested people. I'll agree though, a good 'fuck' does wonders for everyone  (in more ways than one!)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Cyklown said:


> I post from work. Half the stuff here I can't mention due to nondisclosure agreements (very petty, smallminded ones at that) and the other half you'd write off as urban legends. Helpdesk is... a magical, magical place. The trick is to force all the bitterness out onto others, so that I have nothing but a nice bastion of happy-place to reside in when I walk out. If it's any consolation, this is the version where I delete 2/3 of what I say. You should hear me in my work's smokers' shelter.


LOL, fair enough. I work in customer service as well. It;s amazing how many people think I'm a people person when in reality I hate just about every living creature that enters my store.



> If Sternguard are just "these are veterans, this is why some people volunteer for a job that doesn't involve a thunderhammer and a stormshield" types then that's perfectly reasonable. Obscene, but reasonable.


That's what it is. The first company of every codex adherent chapter is composed of Veterans. Some of those vets are offered the chance to don Terminator armor. The rest are allowed to choose their own wargear and (to some extent) assignment. Taking places in honour guards/command squads, or forming up into Veteran squads. When C:SM came out they split the normal vet squad up a bit and gave them two main options: Sternguard or Vanguard.

Sternies and Vans are still members of the First Company, still Veteran Space Marines, and still allowed to choose their own wargear. Those that choose the sword go and join the ranks of the Vanguard (which is the case with most BA vets), those that prefer the more tactical role ahd choose the gun join the Sternguard.

It's no different than leaving a jump pack assault squad in favor of one that fights on foot. It's a lateral shift and one all veterans of codex-adherent chapters are allowed to make.

Denying BA sternguard would be the same as denying them Terminators.




> Maybe they could have just, I don't know, overpriced them compared to C:BA, or if they failed to do that just throw so many cool options there that they'll rarely get fielded. Oh, wait... Um, Rifleman Dreads no longer compete with Sternguard. There's a build, somewhere in there...


Well, as it is they're not likely to be a popular elites choice. Overpricing them for no reason would be arbitrary and unfair. There's no reason for them to cost more if they're not any better. The fact they are uncommon in a normal BA chapter is represented by the fact that nobody will want to give up their sang priests and furiosos in order to take them 



Zodd said:


> When waiting for the new codex, this is very comforting summary. From my point of view, it seems that GW actually have made some needed improvements. RAS have more choice of weapons, as do the DC. As i usually fight low points game;1000p-1250p it will be nice, that they now can support themselves, mostly RAS.


Yeah, I was really excited by the melta sin the RAS. It helps make up for the loss of the old VAS.



> DC will just scare everybody even more now.


And not a bad price for them if you don't take JPs.
However, with sanguinary priests running around giving out FC and FNP like candy, they're not as badly needed. You can cause almost as much mayhem now with a squad of assault marines.



> More types of Dreads to be podded were needed,


And some that don't even need pods (flying libby dreads, and with AV13 on furiosos, they're not as vulnerable as before)



> but i am wondering; they still DS as before ? No arrival in 1st turn ?


No, they DS like regular SM now. Half on the first turn.



> And all "Rhino-types" are fast k:
> And with all the new minis with new weapon-combos I can look forward to a lot of modelling. And maybee best of all, with a proper Codex i can now try my luck, in our biggest annual turnament. The PDF was not allowed, you had to use C.SM if you wanted to paticipate. No way.
> But with this the sun is shining. At least when we reach april 3rd.:biggrin:
> Thanks Gal.


Bah, that's lame! Well, no worries now, eh?



Cyklown said:


> Except Vanguard Vets were quite EXPLICITLY made with Descent of Angels in mind.
> 
> Hell, I know the chronology doesn't work out, but I'd say that there's a solid case for BA players to get mad at C:SM for stealing Vanguard Vets from them (intervention! yes!) and then using them so terribly that they're really bad. I mean, trying to do that without descent of angels? Who here wants to throw a (very small) part of their 1st company away!? Woo!


I find that pretty tenuous. More like they made something that wasn't worth the points, realized they fucked it up and fixed it for the new codex because otherwise BA would never play with VAS, and that wouldn't make any sense for them. (And because they're codex adherent they wouldn't get to keep their old fashioned VAS, they'd have to use vanguard)



Crimzzen said:


> I agree, Heresy's policy on language does differ from other sites and does set us apart from them (in a good way) I'm just looking out for the site. I would like to see it continue to grow and attract new gamers and just want to make sure we're able to encompass all types of interested people. I'll agree though, a good 'fuck' does wonders for everyone  (in more ways than one!)


Fair point. I didn't realize at the time this would be featured in the upcoming heresy blog, or get the kind of attention it has.

That said, 'skullfucking' stays ;-)


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Three cheers for 'skullfucking'! wait, what?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, two cheers and one long, strangled scream.
Hip-hip-horAARRGGHHH!


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Well, two cheers and one long, strangled scream.
> Hip-hip-horAARRGGHHH!


Ah, Gal, you just made my day and it's only just gone 9am... thank you! k:


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

"You must spread some <snip> around before..."

Is really quite amusing, given what I was trying applaud (well, it's funnier once you change that one key word to anything else you'd care to place there). Well, amusing or slightly squicky. There's quite a bit of overlap between what amuses some people and squicks others, I've noticed.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Still haven't got the codex. Damn local shop hasn't got them in yet... Just wondering what would VAS go under nowadays anyway??


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Regular assault squads and vanguard veterans most likely, especially the veterans one since thats what they are. (Though not necessarily what you want to use them as.)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

VAS are gone.In their place (in a literal sense) are Vanguard Vets.
however, if you want to keep the old Run and Gun utility of the original VAs, you can also grab Honour Guard

Too bad we don;t get the option for jump pack sternies...that would have been brutal


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Frankly, being able to take an honour guard squad with JP's (noting descent of angels), a Sanguinary Novitiate, and 4 meltaguns, makes me happy.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Galahad said:


> It's basicaly the same trap that existed in C:SM "Ironclads and venerable dreads and techmarines with super-cannons, and biker troops, and these cool new scout bikers, and, and TWO kinds of veterans!"


i agree there and having started collecting SW i was tempted to take an uber wolf lord with a cool saga and loads of gear, but your review turned me away from that. the difference with C:SM is that sternguard are the biz and almost eveyone knows it


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Frankly, being able to take an honour guard squad with JP's (noting descent of angels), a Sanguinary Novitiate, and 4 meltaguns, makes me happy.


And, of course, if you have the points and inclination, you can also give them Flamers to go with those Meltas.:wink:


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> And, of course, if you have the points and inclination, you can also give them Flamers to go with those Meltas.:wink:


inorite!

It makes a little bit of sick come into my mouth. Just a little bit, at the back.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Are you sure that that taste isn't the bitter flavor of joy?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I think it might be.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

why skimp? Meltas and plasma, that way you can pop twice as many termies or meqs then next round go and break their land raider


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Because you don't want to wipe them out before you charge, silly.

And because Meltas will still kill a few MEQs, while Flamers kill half a mob of Orks. :wink:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

If I can kill a squad of termies without running the risk of getting a fist to the face I'll take it. If any of them survive along enough to act as a fire shield during enemy shooting chances are you just lost a couple very expensive models that would have survived the shooting (with 3+ saves and FNP) easier than the fists.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

True, but you may have just launched yourself another 6" (and 2" consolidation) towards the rest of your enemy.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I can certainly see an argument for Plasma, but I think it's far too expensive to combine with Melta - and there's little benefit to combining with Flamers, I'd sooner combine with Power Weapons then. [Even costing a lot more than Flamers would, or even Melta]


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

Great review Gal. It's fucking annoying how every new codex GW releases is more powerful than the last. I understand its a marketing strategy but its still annoying as all hell


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

If you think that every codex released is literally more powerful than the last, then you're wrong.

Anyone that thinks this 'dex is "more powerful" than the Space Wolves codex is sorely mistaken :grin:


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> If you think that every codex released is literally more powerful than the last, then you're wrong.
> 
> Anyone that thinks this 'dex is "more powerful" than the Space Wolves codex is sorely mistaken :grin:


With the exception of Special characters in all dexes, explain how the Space Wolf codex is more "powerful" than this thing. You have Ironclad dreads (furioso) that can potential have infinite number of attacks (I know it will never happen but 10 is not a number that is not out of reach) with WS 5, for 20 more points than a regular dread? Oh, and it can basically be given a jump pack?? Your assault marines are basically grey hunters when they drop the jump packs (Yes Grey Hunters are awesome, I won't even deny that) but you can get super cheap super charged rhinos for these guys. Everything in your codex is fast (though you pay slightly for it...FAST vindicators?!?! I mean really?)


When it comes down to it though, you have better (Cheaper I might add) HQ's, better elites (Those dreads are awesome), and better ways to get your dudes into combat. Also a vehicle that is an assault skimmer that drops off a dread and 6 assault marines??? I don't know how you can even claim that this codex is not powerful.

The spacewolf codex has two things that I would say is better. Grey Hunters point for point are the best troops in the game. Long Fangs I think are the best heavy weapon teams you can get, but even the blood angels have cheaper devs than standard marines (How does that even make sense for an assault army anyways?)

Ya, we have thunderwolf cav, but They are expensive, and yes we can get versatile terminators but anything more than a power weapon (or wolf claw) and a storm bolter makes them cost a lot more than a standard marine codex. We pay for our bonuses with either lower leadership or not able to get 2 special weapons in the squads. The only downside I have seen is a price hike for your transports (Which if I could have sgts for free, 2 special weapons and only pay 15 points for a FAST rhino I would gladly take it over having to choose between leadership or special weapons.


The only thing that could be a problem is doing gunline...but even then, razorback wall solves that.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It could be argued that this codex is in some ways more powerful than the vanilla marine dex (though I would debate that), I certainly don;t think it;s more powerful than the wolves.

I think the goal of GW was to make each dex cool and interesting (perhaps cooler and more interesting) in comparison to the last. They failed with C:SW by mistaking 'powerful' for 'interesting' but I think they came closer to the mark with C:BA


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

> You have Ironclad dreads (furioso) that can potential have infinite number of attacks (I know it will never happen but 10 is not a number that is not out of reach) with WS 5, for 20 more points than a regular dread? Oh, and it can basically be given a jump pack??


Wrong. Read the 'dex.



> When it comes down to it though, you have better (Cheaper I might add) HQ's


Wrong. Read the 'dex. There are only 2 character HQ options under 200 points. All of the fantastically good HQ options are ridiculous points sinks.



> but even the blood angels have cheaper devs than standard marines (How does that even make sense for an assault army anyways?)


Because it's an assault army. Why would you bother taking them? Therefore, if they are cheaper, they actually become an attractive option (otherwise they are useless).

Have you even READ the 'dex?

Everything in there might be slightly, or in same cases alot, better than the vanilla marines - but EVERYTHING is WAY more expensive.

The same can't be said for the wolves - their options are ridiculously cost-effective. Something that is not true of the BA 'dex, really. If you want those badass units, then you have to pay big time, and end up with about 5 models on the table.



> Everything in your codex is fast


Wrong. Read the 'dex.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Tycho and Seth are both under 200.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Tycho and Seth are both under 200.


Ahh.. you didn't read my post.

I said that there were only 2 character HQ's under 200 :grin:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, your post confused me, because you said all the fantastically good HQs were points sinks...and Libbies are not. 

Mephiston though, I grant you. 

And Honour Guard, to an extent...


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> No, your post confused me, because you said all the fantastically good HQs were points sinks...and Libbies are not.
> 
> Mephiston though, I grant you.
> 
> And Honour Guard, to an extent...


Libbies are ONLY fantastically good BECAUSE they aren't a points sink - I meant in abilities.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

What isn't awesome about Shield, and especially Lance? Sword, Wings, it's all there...

Abilities they have in spades.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Wrong. Read the 'dex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have read the 'dex...and you get armor 13 dreadnoughts with WS 5, and the ability to give them twin lightning claws, that grant an additional attack for every wound. How exactly is that statement wrong? They are basically the equivalent of the Ironclads except they are 12 on the side. They are however cheaper...I read the damn codex, and these are way under cost.

Ummmm you get the old bad ass chaplain for 25 points more, for an extra wound, initiative, and attack. I believe an extra BS too. 



> The same can't be said for the wolves - their options are ridiculously cost-effective. Something that is not true of the BA 'dex, really. If you want those badass units, then you have to pay big time, and end up with about 5 models on the table.


Have you read the space wolves codex?? The same bad ass units you speak of are incredibly expensive for the wolves, and HQ's are also very expensive for anything but the basic guy with no upgrades. Again, aside from Grey Hunters and Long fangs what is super cost effective in this codex? 




> but EVERYTHING is WAY more expensive.


Bullshit, no it's not. Your dreads are better and cheaper, your tactical marines are the same, your assault marines are scoring and better. You get Red Thirst with no down falls for free. You have deep striking land raiders (WTF is with that anyways), librarian dreadnoughts, cheaper devastators, a transport that carries two units, and anything that uses a rhino chassis is fast (granted you pay for this, but totally worth it). I would gladly pay the 40 points to have my vindicators move 12 and drop a 24" Str 10, ap 2 template. Sorry that your Land Raiders aren't fast...my bad!

The only thing the regular marine codex has on this one is Iron Clads (Which Furioso's are better and cheaper) and it's named characters. It also has Sternguard, which are not cost effective anyways.

I am not saying this codex is over power by any means, but to think this is not on par with the Wolf codex is absurd. Try actually playing with the Wolf codex, and you will see it's plagued with transport problems and leadership problems. Things we pay for to have the best troops and awesome heavy weapons. If I could get rid of the problems of leadership and transport cap, for more points I would do it in a heart beat.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sternguard are in the BA Dex, MotF, Biker Troops, Elite Dreadnoughts with Ranged Capacity aren't in BA, Stormravens are 200+ points (lol) and, finally - Red Thirst? LMAO. 1/6 times a unit loses ATSKNF for Fearless (so they never escape CC) and FC (so they can better punch out Rhinos...) - whilst never ever getting Combat Tactics.

The Dexes are equal.


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

Wait, a Space Puppies player complaining about an "over powered" Codex? Now I've seen it all. Here's how you fix this Taggerung. Go to the store and get some prep-H for that butthurt, then we can have a real conversation about how your 4 HQ slots, JotWW, Grey Hunters, Lone Wolfs, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Claw necklace, wolf of the wolfing wolf, and let's not forget fucking Arjac, is just fine and balanced. Just like the BA 'dex is. 

Really saying any 5th ed 'dex is over powered is silly. And if you are going to make a silly statement like that, at least pick something believable like the IG Codex.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Despite the so called over powered codexs of the BA and SW unfortunately CSM can still trump them well (not that I play CSM)... damn CSM


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Despite the so called over powered codexs of the BA and SW unfortunately CSM can still trump them well (not that I play CSM)... damn CSM


I think you've been reading too much BoLS...:stop:


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Actually I dont really read much on that site, been to it about 5 times...


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Fucking Arjac.

(just thought I'd slip that in there)


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Wax_Assassin said:


> Wait, a Space Puppies player complaining about an "over powered" Codex? Now I've seen it all. Here's how you fix this Taggerung. Go to the store and get some prep-H for that butthurt, then we can have a real conversation about how your 4 HQ slots, JotWW, Grey Hunters, Lone Wolfs, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Claw necklace, wolf of the wolfing wolf, and let's not forget fucking Arjac, is just fine and balanced. Just like the BA 'dex is.
> 
> Really saying any 5th ed 'dex is over powered is silly. And if you are going to make a silly statement like that, at least pick something believable like the IG Codex.


Lol, if you can possibly read my post you will see this line...



> I am not saying this codex is over power by any means, but to think this is not on par with the Wolf codex is absurd.



4 Hq slots? Do you know how retarded you have to be to use up 1/4 of your army on 2 wound HQ models?? That's just not even necessary because NO ONE brings 4 hq's. 

Yes, as I said, Grey Hunters are hands down the best troops...and seriously? Arjac? That 200 point sink? Really? You are bitching about that guy? Anyone who takes him, or those lone wolves you are bitching about is a terrible player. An elite slot for ONE model who can have some wolves with him??

As for JOTWW, it's potent, but not very good. It's good against Carnifex's, Anything Nurgle, and the Crons...basically any other unit from any other codex is going to just laugh and pass that roll with at minimum a 50% result (This is assuming init 3 too). It will kill maybe 4-5 guys from nearly every other codex, and Eldar/DE just slap you in the face if you use it. Also, I didn't realize that Red Thirst gets rid of ATSKNF...I was not informed about that when we played, he just played it as they got both, which I thought was pretty rigged lol


I never once said my codex wasn't powerful, but to say that the Blood Angel codex isn't is just retarded, or just blind devotion to this codex.


FYI, I have played with and against it...even against my guard/nid/ork armies, and it has done very, very well in all of the games. It's a very solid/powerful codex that makes the main vanilla codex obsolete, and I see no real reason to use the vanilla one over this, unless you happen to be the one guy who runs a biker army.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

You have GOT to be joking, right?

This is ridiculous.

Yes, the BA 'dex is powerful. But to say that it makes the vanilla codex obsolete is nonsense. Some of the special characters from C:SM are awesome, and cost like 2 points or something. Not to mention the whole load of stuff that is in the 'dex that BA don't have - and the fact that it's all cheaper.

And yes, red thirst removes ATSKNF. Not that it bothers me, personally.

I was browsing the vanilla codex this week and was discussing some of the characters with a friend, and we both came to the conclusion that for some reason you can get some bloody sickass characters for a pretty low points cost. Pedro Cantor? WTF Lysander? WTF

VULKAN HESTAAN? twin link ALL flame and melta weapons, and master craft all TH? WTF?

Vanilla codex obsolete?

u mad?

Go take some more crack.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> You have GOT to be joking, right?
> 
> This is ridiculous.
> 
> ...






> With the exception of Special characters in all dexes, explain how the Space Wolf codex is more "powerful" than this thing.



If you read my first post you would have noticed the first line...DISREGARDING all special characters (Which are broken/retarded in any codex) As for not getting MOTF (Who takes him anyways?), The Thunderfire cannon (I have one, it's neat, but dies super easy), biker troops (Oh no! what will that one guy who does this do?!) and o wait thats it...




> Not to mention the whole load of stuff that is in the 'dex that BA don't have - and the fact that it's all cheaper.


Ya....covered the 3 units you don't get...except _*elite *_ranged dreads, and yes, you are right all their rhino chassis are cheaper, but yours are FAST!!!!!!! That more than makes up for any point increase you have. I would kill to have that upgrade in just the nilla codex. You even get the cheap ass assault terminators (Granted 5 points more than nilla codex but meh, still totally worth it, and the 40 pts was way too cheap as was anyways)

Also, you could be less of an asshole next time someone thinks your a moron (Which I didn't say before, but I am now) because you think your clearly very powerful dex is not better than the shitty nilla codex. 

All you blood angel players have been bitching about is how "expensive" your codex is...wake up you whiners, you have a very powerful codex for a _*slight *_ cost increase, which you can negate by just using assault marines without jump packs!


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

You're wrong, but it's cool, because everyone else isn't such a retard and will see it for themselves 

The 'nilla dex is an equal to the BA 'dex. The SW 'dex is prolly the most powerful out of the three, being objective.

Fast tanks are alright.

But, then again, so is being able to take a dev squad for 115 points with 4 HB and being able to split fire... oh, sorry, yeah - not OP TOO MUCH... (especially for an assault army......)


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius is right, you're completely wrong. Now both of you calm down and quit insulting each other, it's a game.

PS: Fuck 4 HBs (which are actually 95pts), 4 Rocket launchers for 115pts is absolute butt-fuck. Especially when they can be split.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Special Characters broken?? Hardly. Most aren't even NEARLY worth their points. Look at Arjac, Nork Deddog, Calgar etc etc.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK guys there's a bit of nastiness going on with talk of "butthurt" and "retardedness", and it hurts the friendly atmosphere we are trying to create for our members here at Heresy Online. So in future can we please try to be civil towards each other, if you don't have something nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all. If you can't do this, and you really feel like you have to be a nasty prick, go to another site and do it, because it's not welcome at Heresy Online.


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I tend to fall in with Taggerung on this at least in regards to the nilla codex vs BA. Since the BA dex came out I've found almost no reason to use the nilla dex unless I want to run very specific lists. For instance the bike army or Vulkan flamer/melta heavy list or a sternguard heavy Pedro list. It could also be argued a MotF/dread heavy army is easier done with the BA dex now, minus the MotF of course (which isn't that big of a loss). I guess if you really want an orbital bombardment you have to use Nilla dex, but who builds a list around that.

It just seems there is not much left in the nilla dex that is worth basing an army around compared to the BA dex now aside from the few list examples above.

I don't want to say the BA dex is more powerful then the nilla, but in the end I know I would rather have a Furioso then an ironclad or venerable (mostly, vens are tough to decide on), I'd rather have the BA psy powers over the nilla ones, I'd rather have fast vehicles that cost slightly more then non-fast ones, I'd rather be able to take assault squads as troops then the nothing the nilla SM have in comparison, I would rather have priests then LotD, I'd rather a stormraven over a thunderfire cannon, I'd rather have a Baal pred option (in FA no less) over a landspeeder storm.

I think for most marine players not playing a very specific list that requires one of 3-5 things from the nilla dex, the BA dex is a better choice.

I don't agree with him on the SW vs BA dexs. SW is a pretty top notch dex across the board and it's different enough to justify it's use for anything in it.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I'd much rather be able to take a thunderfire cannon over the failraven gundingy.

It's like a cannon of pure ork-death.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Yes. But do you really want to have riflemen and ac/las preds competing for slots? I mean, yes riflemen dreads are competing with sternguard for space, but...


Also: do people _really_ feel like taking s5ap- weapons? Could we maybe give the Nightspinner to whatever races they play and then give the Eldar something less fail instead?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Are we back onto the eldar bitterness?

I am actually lost by what you are saying now.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Nah. New models are new models. I'm just pointing out that mid-str ap- weapons are not particularly good, no matter what the ROF is.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I think that may be a bit of a throwaway statement.



> I'm just pointing out that mid-str ap- weapons are not particularly good, no matter what the ROF is.


It's not that sensible, is it...


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Meh. The raven is at laeast a nondedicated transport that moves really well.

As far as throwaway statements go, I'd have assumed that you of all people would have realized that most of what I say is throwaway in nature, if not in execution.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Well, I only said it because the statement seemed incomplete.

I take it you wouldnt be that happy if I put a unit on the table with S5 AP- Assault50 Range 72" on the table. It doesn't exist, but whatever.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

I wouldn't be that happy, sure. However, it'd likely be a giant boondoggle from a points standpoint and a million time less effective in action whenever you use it than you expected. ap- makes it useless against vehicles (well, warp spiders aren't terribad, but they're less fun than one would sometimes expect), and while that isn't the be all end all of the game, having a HS not be able to scratch vehicles _hurts_.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I take it you wouldnt be that happy if I put a unit on the table with S5 AP- Assault50 Range 72" on the table. It doesn't exist, but whatever.


Geez I'd love a gun like that, ap - or not, that thing rips apart as many as six power armoured bodies a turn at BS3. Forget anything with lower toughness or have the thing fired at BS4.

Higher strength and an ap value may make all the difference against armour, but something like that would be a godsend because that is infantry death incarnate; now you can focus more weapons on dealing with armour.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

^ exactly my point.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

^You force enough saves and even termies die^  High ROF AP- has it's place for sure.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> I think you've been reading too much BoLS...:stop:


I think he's being paying attention to UK tournament results. CSM have been on top here for a while.



pathwinder14 said:


> ^You force enough saves and even termies die^  High ROF AP- has it's place for sure.


Thats where the SHP generated FNP comes in.


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