# The devolution of the Adepta Sororitas fluff



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Following a recent PM conversation I'd like to take a moment to examine and speculate about the deplorable downward spiral that is the fluff of the Adepta Sororitas. This thread is concerned only with fluff, not game mechanics.

I do mean the entire sisterhood, not just the Orders Militant, though just be dint of lack of fluff, the other Orders are hard to talk about at all.

To kick off with the Orders Militant (the Sisters of Battle).

they have existed since Rogue Trader, giving them the oldest, as well as the braodest fluff of the Sisterhood. More than any other Orders - hell, more than any other army or entuity in the game, they have suffered at the hands of fluff writers.

The story runs more-or-less thus:

First Edition/Rogue Trader: The height of the Sisters' awesomeness. They were the galaxy's ultimate badasses. They were responcible for ensuring the genetic and doctrinal purity of the Imperium, including the Space Marines. They were the go-to force for taking down rogue space Marines. Numbers unknown, but not a huge amount - no need for masses of Battle sisters since they were so awesome.

This is also the height of their 'nuns in spaaace' flavour. They wore wimples with their power armour - so not everything was perfect.

Second Edition: Army of the Ecclesiarchy. Less than 30'000 Sisters galaxy-wide, apparantly. Still very scary. Mysterious, all-but unknown to the galaxy at large since they kept to themselves and never left an enemy alive to spread the word. Heavy flamers a-go-go. Took on four Space Marine Chapters and the armies of Mars single-handed and fought them to a six month long stalemate. The start of their gradual fluff-weakening, the Mechanicus cheated them out of the Inferno canon.

The Codex itself is a mere 'allies' 'dex designed not to be an army in and of itself, but to be bolted on to your existing Space Marines. Nevertheless, it's a very groovy book and regarded as some of the best fluff GW have ever put out. Legend has it that the only reason they got a Codex at all is because GW were feeling the backlash after Squatting the, er, Squats and were eager to proove that they were not eliminating any other armies. Nevertheless, this is probably the high-point of the Sisters' fluff.

Third Edition: Unless you were paying very close attention, or had read the 2e 'dex, you likely think they are part of the Inquisition. Likely more than 10'000'000 sisters, all doing what an Inquisitor tells them to do, or standing guard outside a cathedral. Considered a bit of a joke by the galaxy at large. The Codex admits that the Sisterhood can 'challenge' a renegade Space Marine chapter - that's the word they use, 'challenge', not purge, or eliminate, or destroy.

Necrons kill an entire Convent and Games Workshop thinks it's so good that the sisters should loose every fight from now on. They generally get to make heroic last stands, but will pretty much not win a battle from here on.

The 3e 'dex is pretty rotten - Games Workshop did not consider the Sisterhood a legitimate army, but as a selection of units that could be used with the Inquisition army you're supposed to be playing. And you're only supposed to be playing an Inquisition army because GW wanted to advertise their then-new Inquisitor 54mm game. The 'dex is an advertisment for another game... This shows in the fluff - what there is of it. There are seven pages of fluff in the entire codex, compared to twenty-three in the 2e codex.

Today/5e: If you've heard of them at all it was because they were being slaughtered wholesale by other Imperial forces or pushed around by any bad-guy who wondered past.

Space Wolves eliminate a whole Order, Another Whole Order is corrupted by Psyker Hitler in Spaaace. They tried to stop Flesh Tearers from masacring (and EATING!) allies, got their arses kicked by Flesh Tearers. Duped into fighting Grey Knights, Grey Knights slaughter them easily, then team up with them, no sisters survived team-up. Dozens of Sisters slaughtered by one daemon-engine which was subsiquently one-shot-killed by a single Space Marine. A dozen or more sisters slaughtered by one combat-servitor.

The most recent Abbess just plain disapeared for some god damned reason. Given all this, it's actually no surprise that, according the the_two paragraphs_ in the 5e core book, there are now much, much less than 30'000 or so Sisters in the whole Galaxy. I'm surprised that there are so many left.

The one bright point in modern Sisters fluff is the novel _Faith & Fire_, in which a group of Battle Sisters make a serious mistake, and then just about make up for it. It's hardly the sort of crushing victory other armies get in their own novel(s), but we'll take what we can get.


It's pretty easy to observe the gradual, if exponantial decline in love shown to the sisterhood by Games Workshop. Particularly telling, one feels, are the incidents with the Space Marines.

Having finally noticed that the Space Wolves are irresponcible wolf-shagging mutants who answer to no-one, the Ecclesiarchy sent a delegation to Fenris. Not an army, not an inquisitorial force, just a handful of priests to inquire about the nature of the Space Wolf's beliefs. The Space Wolves killed them instantly, without provocation. Three Orders of Battle Sisters are sent to Fenris to exact revenge. The Space Wolves defeated them effortlessly. The Ecclesiarchy now recognise how awesome Space Marines are, and how crap Battle sisters are, and just accept it. A few thousand sisters once fought four chapters of Marines and the legions of Mars into a stalemate that lasted for months (and only ended when the Sisterhood wanted it to), now the Space Wolves can best three orders in as many weeks.

During the Third War for Armageddon the Flesh Tearers, also a legitimate candidate for excomunication in anyone's book, murdered (and apparently ate) an allied militia unit. the Sisters of the Argent Shroud tried to prevent it. they were all killed. The Flesh Tearers were not sanctioned.

These stories are a far, far cry from the Sisterhood's original fluff. If I were a pettier, more suspicious man I'd speculate that GW's treatment of the Sisterhood demonstrates a devolution from fear of women to contempt of women. The idealized male form - the Space Marine (hyper-masculine, but asexual) was, in rogue trader days, imasculated and threatened by the female avatar, and is now triumphant over her.

I don't actually believe that, I'm very very slow to ascribe malice to actions that can be explained by incompetance or apathy. You could however, make a pretty convincing case if you wanted to*.

All the same, it'd be nice if the sisters only get slaughtered by their enemies. Or even, y'know, won a fight more than once every five millennia.

Second only to the tales of Battle Sisters being killed are stories of their being corrupted by chaos. _Daemonifuge_ and _Cain's Last Stand_ are certainlythe most egregious examples - wherein entire Orders come to serve chaos, but are hardly unusual.

Which brings us up the present day. It's hard to imagine the fluff getting any worse at this point, but also hard to believe that it will get better when there seems no will at all amongst Games Workshop or Black Library writers to use the Sisterhood as anything other than disposable bodycount, or an example of how seductive chaos can be.

From the above broad statement I exclude James Swallow - until September next year when his second stab at the army may be judged on its merits. He is willing to write about the sisterhood, for which we must thank him, though.


*No, serriously - I don't beleive that Games Workshop, or any their many writers are afraid of or disgusted by women. And even if they were, I don't think they're smart enough or dedicated enough to craft a thirty-year long metaphor for female disempowerment. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, people.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I think the sisters of battle defeated the night lords once. Basically the sisters had to leave a city for a while and during this time the Night Lords attacked and hung every priest in the city. Then the sisters came back and when they saw what happened they declared each priest a martyr and sent the civilians into a mass frenzy and chased out the Night Lords. Thus making the Night Lord tactic back fire on them. I can't remember where I read that from.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

This is exactly the type of threads that make Heresy great IMO. You deserve a +Rep (which I've given you) for raising this point).

I'm going to basically come at this from my own perspective, and by doing so, I think it will show some of the problems you have raised.

Firstly, I thought the Sister's of Battle (Adeptus Sororitis) were part of the Inquisitions forces, I actually thought they were the militant organization that undertook the Inquisitions purges, crusades etc, along with allied Guardsmen and to a lesser extent Astartes Chapters.

Secondly, I actually happen to think that the Sister's are insanely cool and not just for the, "hey hot chicks in tight clothing" reasoning that is very common (although who doesn't like that as well?). But I also firmly believe that the Sister's, Grey Knights and basically all Inquisition forces, really need to be in one codex.

This might be slightly off topic (I apologize) but it should be 

1. Space Marine Codex, which includes all chapters
2. Imperial Guard
3. Inquisition, which includes every aspect of it
4. *Adeptus Mechanicus, *these guys deserve their own codex and army IMO

Returning to the subject of Sister's in fluff terms, I only came across them in the Grey Knight Omnibus and as you say, they really didn't come off well, they were manipulated, then owned in battle, and generally were the poor cousins of Space Marines, almost as if the Imperium had feminist rights groups harassing them on their gender employment records lol.

In saying that, they did feature in Dawn of War ('rolls eyes', I know, I know) and they were pretty cool in that, especially the Living Saints. Also if I'm not mistaken the female in the original Horus Heresy Trilogy (Keeler?) is kind of an earlier precurser for the Sister's and she is very well written, so if they maintain that level of witing in future works I think the Soritis will eventually get the attention and recognition they deserve. 

Great thread!

P.S I also remembered the Adeptus Sororitis featured awesomely in _Tales of Heresy, _in an incredible short story. So maybe the future is bright after all, as the fluff is getting good and the new codex will be coming sooner rather than later.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Azezel said:


> Duped into fighting Grey Knights, Grey Knights slaughter them easily, then team up with them. Dozens of Sisters slaughtered by one daemon-engine which was subsiquently one-shot-killed by a single Space Marine.


Never refer to Ben Counter's protrayal of Grey Knights, it's absolute garbage. The Grey Knights actually lost a few of their numbers to SoB which is just a joke. 



Azezel said:


> Given all this, it's actually no surprise that, according the the_two paragraphs_ in the 5e core book, there are now much, much less than 30'000 or so Sisters in the whole Galaxy. I'm surprised that there are so many left.


It's not hard to recruit regular female human beings, of which there are billions throughout the Imperium.



Azezel said:


> A few thousand sisters once fought four chapters of Marines and the legions of Mars into a stalemate that lasted for months (and only ended when the Sisterhood wanted it to), now the Space Wolves can best three orders in as many weeks.


The writer of that particular fluff probably wanted to impress a female co-worker at GW or something because a thousand SoB stand *no *chance against even fifty Space Marines let alone four chapters. Nowadays they are depicted more realistically and are more in tune with their actual combat abilities.



Azezel said:


> During the Third War for Armageddon the Flesh Tearers, also a legitimate candidate for excomunication in anyone's book, murdered (and apparently ate) an allied militia unit. the Sisters of the Argent Shroud tried to prevent it. they were all killed. The Flesh Tearers were not sanctioned.


I would imagine a loyal and compliant Astartes Chapter is infinitely more valuable than a bunch of SoB. The only flaw of the Flesh Tearers is their battle rage and disregard for civilians and to the cold Imperium, that's an _acceptable _loss especially when there are trillions of humans all over. And according to the lexicanum (oh noes!), the Inquisition has ordered for the destruction of the chapter according to the leader of the Order of the Argent Shroud.



Azezel said:


> These stories are a far, far cry from the Sisterhood's original fluff. If I were a pettier, more suspicious man I'd speculate that GW's treatment of the Sisterhood demonstrates a devolution from fear of women to contempt of women. The idealized male form - the Space Marine (hyper-masculine, but asexual) was, in rogue trader days, imasculated and threatened by the female avatar, and is now triumphant over her.


Or they realized that they were yanking everyone's chain when they even played with the idea that a bunch of SoB could take on the Astartes and have over the years come to their senses.



Azezel said:


> All the same, it'd be nice if the sisters only get slaughtered by their enemies. Or even, y'know, won a fight more than once every five millennia.


I guess GW could throw them a bone here and there just not ever against Astartes.

Generally though it's hard for unaugmented humans to win fights these days in the WH40k universe, the Imperial Guard does this mostly through superior numbers not due through stronger armies.

And to be realistic, the vast majority of GW's fan base is male without a doubt and the idea of a woman besting a male physically doesn't sit well with said fan base. Don't count me into the picture until you're talking about a regular faith-loving woman beating an Astartes. Also GW's depiction of the SoB is quite silly seeing as how they're usually wearing skimpy clothing and thus are seen simply as objects of lust never to be taken seriously by male fans all around.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The writer of that particular fluff probably wanted to impress a female co-worker at GW or something because a thousand SoB stand *no *chance against even fifty Space Marines let alone four chapters. Nowadays they are depicted more realistically and are more in tune with their actual combat abilities.


You do realize that not only is that in the Witch Hunter Codex but it is also within the Black Templar and probably are codexs to and it is how the sisters were founded.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> You do realize that not only is that in the Witch Hunter Codex but it is also within the Black Templar and probably are codexs to and it is how the sisters were founded.


Your point being? There are tons of old fluff that are no longer considered canon today.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Your point being? There are tons of old fluff that are no longer considered canon today.


It is canon. Your saying that several codex that are still used today are no longer canon? Your saying one of the most important battles in 40k is no longer canon. Then I suppose the sisters just magically appeared out of no where with power armour and bolters.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Malus, I think you are swinging too far the other way, the Sororitus isn't as unworthy as all that.

Yes they rightly scaled back the fluff, but a Sororitus (what the hell are they in again ... not Chapters but?) should be able to give Space Marines a hard time, not just be pushovers, which is kind of how your making them sound.

In saying that are the Sister's just literally women in power armour? They must be alot better than that surely?

I would guess (don't know to be honest) they go through all that psycho conditioning and extreme training in general that marines go through, just without the genetic manipulation. If they don't , then .... oh shit they are screwed lol.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> It is canon. Your saying that several codex that are still used today are no longer canon?


Not exactly, I'm saying there are a lot of old fluff derived from a multitude of sources that no longer are considered canon.



Necrosis said:


> Your saying one of the most important battles in 40k is no longer canon. Then I suppose the sisters just magically appeared out of no where with power armour and bolters.


I'd say so. With the Astartes we have a long history towards their upbringing, first with the Geno Chilliad then the Techno-Barbarians ---> Proto-Astartes.

The Sisters of Battle just popped out from a world who had a cult of female only Emperor worshipers.



D-A-C said:


> Malus, I think you are swinging too far the other way, the Sororitus isn't as unworthy as all that.
> 
> Yes they rightly scaled back the fluff, but a Sororitus (what the hell are they in again ... not Chapters but?) should be able to give Space Marines a hard time, not just be pushovers, which is kind of how your making them sound.


To an Astartes, almost anything is a pushover hence why they are so dominant.



D-A-C said:


> In saying that are the Sister's just literally women in power armour? They must be alot better than that surely?


That's the case I'm afraid. The Sisters of Silence are different however.



D-A-C said:


> I would guess (don't know to be honest) they go through all that psycho conditioning and extreme training in general that marines go through, just without the genetic manipulation. If they don't , then .... oh shit they are screwed lol.


There is no comparison between Astartes training and SoB training, their just regular women who go through extensive training and are equipped with power armor and a bolter. If only the IG were given such opportunities instead of being given messy rudimentary training and used weapons/armor


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> There is no comparison between Astartes training and SoB training, their just regular women who go through extensive training and are equipped with power armor and a bolter. If only the IG were given such opportunities instead of being given messy rudimentary training and used weapons/armor


:goodpost: Pretty much, SoB are on Par with Stormtroopers in training, they just have better equipment and are more fanatical in their worship of the emperor, they may also have their lives genetically extended.... maybe


Equivalent of an Astartes? No. Not even close, or they shouldn't be.

Better then the average guardsmen? Yes.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Just a minor point, the Sisters of Battle weren't harmed by the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon. I own their Index Astartes article and the Sisters pull back after seeing the Flesh Tearers annihilate the militia and make a report to the Inquisition.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Not exactly, I'm saying there are a lot of old fluff derived from a multitude of sources that no longer are considered canon.
> 
> I'd say so. With the Astartes we have a long history towards their upbringing, first with the Geno Chilliad then the Techno-Barbarians ---> Proto-Astartes.
> 
> The Sisters of Battle just popped out from a world who had a cult of female only Emperor worshipers.


Alright so what happened to the age of Apostasy? Did that just magically never happened? Is the Ecclesiarchy allowed to have an army since that never happened? Did the Ordo Heretics just suddenly appear and say "ya were that new Inquisition branch." I guess Sebastian Thor isn't a saint and I guess Vandire never took over the Lords of Terra. I mean who cares about the Imperium worst time since the Horus Heresy.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Alright so what happened to the age of Apostasy? Did that just magically never happened? Is the Ecclesiarchy allowed to have an army since that never happened? Did the Ordo Heretics just suddenly appear and say "ya were that new Inquisition branch." I guess Sebastian Thor isn't a saint and I guess Vandire never took over the Lords of Terra. I mean who cares about the Imperium worst time since the Horus Heresy.


current canon seems (by my memory.. which can be pretty shoddy)

Vandire Creates the Brides of the Emperor

Vandire and the Age of Apostasy, with Armys of Frateris Militia (equivelent of Guardsmen) and the brides being the Ecclesiarchy shock troops

Vandire pisses off the Astartes, then the Custodes. Custodes talk to the brides, brides talk/kill vandire (I think)

Frateris Milita is disbanded, Ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have MEN at arms, loophole allows for the Brides to continue to exist since they are WOMEN.

Renamed Sisters of battle, Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy, on loan to the Ordos Hereticus, because burning mutants, heretics and non believers is very much in the view of the Ecclesiarchy.


Sooo....... the Sisters of battle only exist because the Genius who had forbid the Esslesiarchy to have soldiers wrote MEN.... only a loophole.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

comrade said:


> current canon seems (by my memory.. which can be pretty shoddy)
> 
> Vandire Creates the Brides of the Emperor
> 
> ...


Umm Comrade that question wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Malus Darkblade cause he said that fluff was out of date and no longer canon.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Umm Comrade that question wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Malus Darkblade cause he said that fluff was out of date and no longer canon.


Again no idea what you're on about, maybe you have me mistaken for someone else?

And I don't see why another member can't answer a question (even if it makes no sense) not directed at him, it is a public forum after all.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Umm Comrade that question wasn't directed at you. It was directed at Malus Darkblade cause he said that fluff was out of date and no longer canon.


From what I gathered, Malus was more talking about the RT fluff (which is outdated if it wasn't ultramarines would be a second founding instead of an original founding right now)

The RT era fluff about SoBs kicking whole Astarte chapters by themselves. That's outdated...... course back then Space Marines were all deranged psychopaths given armor and a gun and told to go kill.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Again no idea what you're on about, maybe you have me mistaken for someone else?
> 
> And I don't see why another member can't answer a question (even if it makes no sense) not directed at him, it is a public forum after all.


Well you claimed that, that one battle was not canon. Yet all this is directly related to that battle.



comrade said:


> From what I gathered, Malus was more talking about the RT fluff (which is outdated if it wasn't ultramarines would be a second founding instead of an original founding right now)
> 
> The RT era fluff about SoBs kicking whole Astarte chapters by themselves. That's outdated...... course back then Space Marines were all deranged psychopaths given armor and a gun and told to go kill.


Well you see it's still in the current edition book, page 4. Sure it doesn't have number but it says they held out for months.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> P.S I also remembered the Adeptus Sororitis featured awesomely in _Tales of Heresy, _in an incredible short story. So maybe the future is bright after all, as the fluff is getting good and the new codex will be coming sooner rather than later.


They weren't Adepta Sororitas, they were Sisters of Silence- other than both formations being entirely female that's the only connection.



Necrosis said:


> Alright so what happened to the age of Apostasy? Did that just magically never happened? Is the Ecclesiarchy allowed to have an army since that never happened? Did the Ordo Heretics just suddenly appear and say "ya were that new Inquisition branch." I guess Sebastian Thor isn't a saint and I guess Vandire never took over the Lords of Terra. I mean who cares about the Imperium worst time since the Horus Heresy.


Vandire discovered a world that was ruled by a cult of warrior women who called themselves the Daughters of the Emperor, he convinced them that he was one of the Emperor's Saints (by getting one of his men to shoot him and when his force field protected him the Daughters proclaimed it a miracle) and took them as his bodyguards renaming them the Brides of the Emperor.
After the Apostasy they reverted back to the Daughters of the Emperor and formed the true Adepta Soroitas orders by command of Sebastian Thor.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

and barons fluff-fu defeats mine. Whatever happened to the sisters of silence though?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

comrade said:


> From what I gathered, Malus was more talking about the RT fluff (which is outdated if it wasn't ultramarines would be a second founding instead of an original founding right now)
> 
> The RT era fluff about SoBs kicking whole Astarte chapters by themselves. That's outdated...... course back then Space Marines were all deranged psychopaths given armor and a gun and told to go kill.


:goodpost:

But yeah, most of the Sisters of Battle fluff is outdated, and there is no way in hell that they would stand a chance against Astartes... Cant we just leave them to their role of dying like martyrs and guarding cathedrals?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Doelago said:


> But yeah, most of the Sisters of Battle fluff is outdated, and there is no way in hell that they would stand a chance against Astartes... Cant we just leave them to their role of dying like martyrs and guarding cathedrals?


Think about what you're saying.

You're saying that people that have spent good money on Sisters of Battle armies, books and so on should just continue to put up with being shat on by GW.

That's so intelligent I might have a fit.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Think about what you're saying.
> 
> You're saying that people that have spent good money on Sisters of Battle armies, books and so on should just continue to put up with being shat on by GW.
> 
> That's so intelligent I might have a fit.


You think you have it bad, think of the poor Squat players.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

comrade said:


> and barons fluff-fu defeats mine. Whatever happened to the sisters of silence though?


Some people think they all perished defending the tear in the Webway and some people think they're still around recruiting more blank women from all over.




Katie Drake said:


> Think about what you're saying.
> 
> You're saying that people that have spent good money on Sisters of Battle armies, books and so on should just continue to put up with being shat on by GW.
> 
> That's so intelligent I might have a fit.



The Squats say hello.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Oh Jezus (that's the PC spelling lol) I hope your not comparing freaking squats to SOB. 

Come on, poor squats users my ass, face it they sucked and sucked hard, and despite how their height would help with that kind of a task ... they sucked at sucking. 

Now back to the SOB, would someone enlighten me as to why the Sister's of Silence aren't part of the Adeptus Sororitis, cause they are awesome, the character who was one of those blanks in the Inquisistor series was great and you felt sorry for her as her life sucked because people hated her without realising why.

So entire units of those bitches would freak the shit out of even the most hardened Chaos follower.

Again in saying that, people are being way too hard on the old SOB's, they aren't just women in power armour, I rememeber reading somewhere that women in close proximity with each other for prolonged periods of time, end up having their 'woman's times' in unison. So ... 3-7 days every month those units become the scariest Berzerker's in the entire 40k universe. LOL.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Now back to the SOB, would someone enlighten me as to why the Sister's of Silence aren't part of the Adeptus Sororitis, cause they are awesome, the character who was one of those blanks in the Inquisistor series was great and you felt sorry for her as her life sucked because people hated her without realising why.


Probably because 5,000 or so years separate the formation of each of the organisations, the Sister of Silence were around during the Great Crusade, the Adepta Sororitas wasn't formed till M36.

The Sisters of Silence would be entirely under the control of the Inquisition if they still existed as an institution, the Sisters of Battle are fanatics who answer to the Imperial Church.

There is one way in which the Adepta Sororitas outclass all Astartes (with the exception of the Grey Knights) completely- faith.
It's been shown that the sort of mental assualt from a being of a Chaos that would destroy a Space Marine's mind can be withstood by a Battle Sister, faith intact.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

comrade said:


> You think you have it bad, think of the poor Squat players.





Malus Darkblade said:


> The Squats say hello.


Uh, take your moaning to the Squat fanboy thread. There's no parallel between the races at this point. Squats are dead. Sisters are not. Thus, Sister players shouldn't be shit on.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> I hope your not comparing freaking squats to SOB.
> Come on, poor squats users my ass, face it they sucked and sucked hard, and despite how their height would help with that kind of a task ... they sucked at sucking.


Says you, others might view the SoB in the same light. 



D-A-C said:


> So entire units of those bitches would freak the shit out of even the most hardened Chaos follower.


Any Pariah though would unsettle a Chaos follower since they're tied to the Warp and even a do-gooder of the Imperial Faith would feel disgusted in the presence of a Pariah.



D-A-C said:


> Again in saying that, people are being way too hard on the old SOB's, they aren't just women in power armour


They are but they're also super zealous, more so than most Astartes Chapters.



D-A-C said:


> I rememeber reading somewhere that women in close proximity with each other for prolonged periods of time, end up having their 'woman's times' in unison. So ... 3-7 days every month those units become the scariest Berzerker's in the entire 40k universe. LOL.


lol don't know if you're serious about the PMS thing but maybe they did indeed have their _Red Rage_ every now and then, heightening their attack prowess to that of a World Eater's Berserker.



Baron Spikey said:


> There is one way in which the Adepta Sororitas outclass all Astartes (with the exception of the Grey Knights) completely- faith.


I agree.



Katie Drake said:


> Uh, take your moaning to the Squat fanboy thread. There's no parallel between the races at this point. Squats are dead. Sisters are not. Thus, Sister players shouldn't be shit on.


I was merely indicating the fact that your treasured SoB aren't immune from the cold and calculating minds that make up GW's finance department seeing as how an entire race that was someone's _precioussss _ was wiped out entirely.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> This is exactly the type of threads that make Heresy great IMO.


It's also exactly the kind of thread which makes some Marine player crawl out of the woodwork and say 'of course sisters are crap, they're not Marines'...
Thank you for not being that Marine player.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's not hard to recruit regular female human beings, of which there are billions throughout the Imperium.


Ignoring most of the idiocy and ranting in your post, this is a worthy point. It's not hard to recruit normal women. Potential Battle sisters are much, much rarer. An individual who is both physically and spiritually strong enough does not crop up very often. the kind of all-encompassing, soul deep faith required simply cannot be taught. A girl either has it or she doesn't.

Of course, the Imperium is a huge thing, and there _are_ bil;lions of little girls who have the right stuff - but they are still not common amongst the trillions who have not.



D-A-C said:


> In saying that are the Sister's just literally women in power armour? They must be alot better than that surely?
> 
> I would guess (don't know to be honest) they go through all that psycho conditioning and extreme training in general that marines go through, just without the genetic manipulation. If they don't , then .... oh shit they are screwed lol.


The are not inoctrinated the same way Marines are. Their indoctrination is typically being raised by the Ecclesiarchy in a Scholla Progenium. Everyone raised by the Scholla receives the same religious indoctrination, but the Sisterhood is made up of those women who were especially receptive to it. Nor is their training so thorough, simply because they don't live so long. They do have the best training and equipment that is possible for mortals, and their faith.

Which is important. In the 40k universe, faith is a real, force. What you believe can become real. If an Ork believes that the collection of scrap metal and gaffer tape in his hand can function as a gun, it will, even though none of the parts fit and the shells are ten different sizes. If a Battle Sister believes that the Emperor grants her strength she actually can tear tank armour with her hands.

And for that matter, it's entirely possible that the Emperor really is granting her strength...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Azezel said:


> Ignoring most of the idiocy and ranting in your post


Prove me wrong then big boy just don't get too emotional in doing so.



Azezel said:


> this is a worthy point. It's not hard to recruit normal women. Potential Battle sisters are much, much rarer. An individual who is both physically and spiritually strong enough does not crop up very often. the kind of all-encompassing, soul deep faith required simply cannot be taught. A girl either has it or she doesn't.


Has 'it'. What is 'it' exactly? Stubborn and absolute belief in the God-Emperor? There are plenty of fools like that throughout the Imperium. Why can't female Ogyrns be Sisters of Battle, their faith in the Emperor outclasses many no? lol



Azezel said:


> Of course, the Imperium is a huge thing, and there _are_ bil;lions of little girls who have the right stuff - but they are still not common amongst the trillions who have not.


Again what is the 'right stuff' ? Female Ogyrns in tight battle suits praising the Emperor and charging to their deaths sound like they have the 'right stuff'.



Azezel said:


> The are not inoctrinated the same way Marines are.


No one is.



Azezel said:


> Everyone raised by the Scholla receives the same religious indoctrination, but the Sisterhood is made up of those women who were especially receptive to it.


Especially susceptible to brainwashing?



Azezel said:


> Nor is their training so thorough, simply because they don't live so long. They do have the best training and equipment that is possible for mortals, and their faith.


No, that would be the Inquisitors of the various Ordos at the top and several other forces in between.



Azezel said:


> Which is important. In the 40k universe, faith is a real, force. What you believe can become real.


Explain that to the teeming masses of millions of devout IG scattered throughout various worlds, calling the Emperor for aid and getting zilch? 



Azezel said:


> If an Ork believes that the collection of scrap metal and gaffer tape in his hand can function as a gun, it will, even though none of the parts fit and the shells are ten different sizes.


A common belief and not something proven but rather attributed to an Imperial scientist's theory if I am not mistaken.



Azezel said:


> If a Battle Sister believes that the Emperor grants her strength she actually can tear tank armour with her hands.


Just no.



Azezel said:


> And for that matter, it's entirely possible that the Emperor really is granting her strength...


Or that particular sister is psychic, Euphrati Keeler comes to mind whose _Sainthood _was questioned if I recall correctly by the Sisters of Silence, ironic.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Or that particular sister is psychic, Euphrati Keeler comes to mind whose _Sainthood _was questioned if I recall correctly by the Sisters of Silence, ironic.


Well obviously as this was during a time when any faith at all was officially suppressed. As far as I can tell Keeler was the first Imperial Saint. Note there is nothing in the fluff that specifies all saints are (or where) battle sisters.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't have any of the SoB codices on me, so bear with me.

From what I've gathered from both the fluff and some of the crunch, the SoB receive training on par with that of Stormtroopers; this makes a fair bit of sense, as both are taught and trained at the Schola Progenium (I wouldn't know how SoB training differs from Stormtrooper training, however). Really, the difference between the Stormtrooper and the Battle Sister is just power armor (3+ armor save) and a Boltgun, though I have reason to believe that the Stormtrooper Sarge can take a Boltgun, correct me if I'm wrong. This is as far as combat training goes, however, and that's to say nothing of faith matters.

I think there was this one fellow on the imageboard that shall not be named that said there were only 6,800 SoB left in the galaxy or something like that, using the SoB entry in the 5E rulebook as a source. I say that's a load of Jarate; there's roughly 1,000 chapters of Astartes in the galaxy and only 6,800 SoB? With the Imperial Guard being such a massive organization and the Schola Progenium being so prominent, there has got to be tons and tons of Stormtroopers; by that logic, there could be tons of SoB out there in the galaxy.

So I hope that helps to clear up some of the "power level" issues (inb4over9000) in the fluff.

Besides, you think the current portrayal is bad? Try Soulstorm; the SoB at Kaurava tried to kill _everyone_ there, including the Imperial forces fighting there.

The Imperial Guard _might_ have deserved it;The 252nd and 253rd Kaurava Conservator regiments (1st Kronus Liberators...Conservators...I see what they did there) had been farting around and never dealing with the Orks in the Rokclaw mountains when they could've. There was a Guardsman in one of the Kaurava regiments that was seduced by the powers of Chaos and conducted the ritual that brought Firaeveus Carron to Kaurava to continue his quest for METUHL BAWKSES in the first place, so if the Selena Agna knew that, then yeah, they could have been justified in attacking the Conservator regiments. Finally, losing 100 Baneblades just doesn't help matters at all.

But the Blohd Rayvans Spess Mehreens had come there to fight Orks; they were pretty much innocent in this matter, even if they up and decided for no reason to attack the Imperial Guard and everyone else on the planet (the SoB came last IIRC). Hell, taking into consideration the points above, that would give the SoB reason to _ally_ with the Spess Mehreens. Although I imagine they'd get tired of Boreale's Steel Rehn.

And they had terrible voice acting.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yllib Enaz said:


> Well obviously as this was during a time when any faith at all was officially suppressed. As far as I can tell Keeler was the first Imperial Saint. Note there is nothing in the fluff that specifies all saints are (or where) battle sisters.


I meant that in Keeler's case, the 'miracles' most likely weren't due to the Emperor watching over her but rather that her belief woke up the dormant psychic part of her.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I meant that in Keeler's case, the 'miracles' most likely weren't due to the Emperor watching over her but rather that her belief woke up the dormant psychic part of her.


Oh, OK. That seems like a fair interpretation of what happened too. 

The relationship between faith, psychic powers and sainthood isnt explained at all.


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh dear Emperor, Azezel, you didn't just step into a minefield, you dove headlong into it.

OK peoples, gremlins and red caps...
*takes out small pile of source books and opens Lexicanum in a new window*

Sisters of Silence are NOT affiliated with the big _=][=_.
Sisters of Silence ARE the militant arm of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.
The Adeptus Astra Telepathica are the group that handles Psykers for everything but Navigators. (Marine Libbys have to even get their OK)
The Adeptus Astra Telepathica Owns and Operates ALL Black Ships and the Sisters of Silence Are the most common guard found aboard.
*Sisters of Battle* will, on the odd occasion, help out and there is also mind-scrubbed Storm Troopers aboard.
Sisters of Silence are not mentioned straight out anymore but are often alluded to with all the subtly of a chain-fist.

*Sisters of Battle* do not exist by accident. The Blessed Saint Thor himself, as the first Ecclesiarch that followed the Age of Apostasy, wrote the law itself with the loophole left in intentionally as if the *Ecclesiarchy* did not have an army then they would be mercy to any other half-wit High Lord.
The *Sisters of Battle* are trained to a standard that surpasses even that of the Storm Troopers and Commisars. Every singe Sister holds many educations covering all fields as they do not train under an order till they are trained to basic standard in all four fields (Militant, Medical, Communication-Language and Technology, Politics) and only then will they be placed within which ever field they were most proficient in.

The _Ordo Hereticus_, even as far in as the Inquisitor RPG system, had a chapter or groups from chapters as their Chamber Militant. What or who was not revealed.
Cue 2004, it is now *Sisters of Battle*, with Absolutely NO reason, lead up or justification given pre-codex. Just a throw away line that the _OH_ didn't like the Sisters being around and so an agreement was reached between the two. (By the by, the _OH_ was, until Codex: Witchunters, perfecty alright with the *Sisters of Battle* being around.

As for treatment of *Sisters of Battle* within Fluff itself it is very much a case of the Worf Effect in action.
Time and time and time and time again.

---

Azezel, a correction for ya:


Azezel said:


> Dozens of Sisters slaughtered by one daemon-engine which was subsiquently one-shot-killed by a single Space Marine.


*SPOILERS*

Not Dozens, it is fully implied that there was still hundreds of Sisters still around and the Daemon Engine was really, little more then a daemon-possessed dread.
And it wasn't without want of trying either.
The Sisters level anything and everything at it from Meltas to Three Exorcist Tanks pumping out salvo after salvo of Anti-Tank Missiles.
It is mentioned that it isn't even scratched by it all.
The Canoness dies placing a Melta-bomb on it after she couldn't get away in time and is cooked alive within her armour by the blast radius. (Uhhh... melta bombs do not blow up :headbutt
And to top it all off, a Living Saint sacrifices her *DIVINITY* to stop it and all it does is *Slow It Down*.:headbutt: (Long enough for are-fore-mentioned Space Marine to throw his Thunder Hammer and one-shot the thing)
Making this nothing but a Shaggy Dog Story as the only reason that Chaos attacked in the first place was to capture said Living Saint any way and thus in the end there is nought to show for everything but an *Entire Shrine World* torn to tatters and an *Entire Order of Battle Sisters Dead* (Most to the dread).


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

Protoss119 said:


> The Imperial Guard _might_ have deserved it;The 252nd and 253rd Kaurava Conservator regiments (1st Kronus Liberators...Conservators...I see what they did there) had been farting around and never dealing with the Orks in the Rokclaw mountains when they could've. There was a Guardsman in one of the Kaurava regiments that was seduced by the powers of Chaos and conducted the ritual that brought Firaeveus Carron to Kaurava to continue his quest for METUHL BAWKSES in the first place, so if the Selena Agna knew that, then yeah, they could have been justified in attacking the Conservator regiments. Finally, losing 100 Baneblades just doesn't help matters at all.
> 
> But the Blohd Rayvans Spess Mehreens had come there to fight Orks; they were pretty much innocent in this matter, even if they up and decided for no reason to attack the Imperial Guard and everyone else on the planet (the SoB came last IIRC). Hell, taking into consideration the points above, that would give the SoB reason to _ally_ with the Spess Mehreens. Although I imagine they'd get tired of Boreale's Steel Rehn.


The guard were completely and utterly inept pre-game and didn't make a move when things started to go south till they were to far up the creek and they dropped the paddles.
When the Canoness called for an explanation of this ineptitude and for the commander to allow her to assume command she was told to bugger off and let the Men do their jobs.
Although, the oe thing IG didn't do wrong was lose any Baneblades. They had all been sent out across the galaxy to various war zones on schedule and the lament is that he should have held off on sending them out till the fighting in Karuva was over.

The Blood Ravens are already under scrutiny by the Inquisition for potential corruption and they not only refused to heed the Canonesses calls but also was prepared to fight the Sisters should they intrude on the BRs mission. (Which was not elaborated on)
When your are that cagey to an organisation who's main job is to seek out heretics and traitors then you better expect to be treated with less then friendly terms.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Prove me wrong then big boy just don't get too emotional in doing so.


Nah, I can't be bothered. A chap's got to pick his battles and you're not likely to have your mind changed by the likes of me. Good luck to you, fella.



Yllib Enaz said:


> Well obviously as this was during a time when any faith at all was officially suppressed. As far as I can tell Keeler was the first Imperial Saint. Note there is nothing in the fluff that specifies all saints are (or where) battle sisters.


I'm pretty sure that most saints aren't/weren't Sororitas of any kind - which makes sense. Considering they didn't exist prior to M36 and even afterwards, are a small group compared to the vastness of thee Imperium.

Keeler might be the first saint or might not be remembered any more at all. I hope she is, but I can fully see the early post-Heresy Imperium trying to cover up the whole chain of events. That would make Olianus Pious the first saint (or was he retconned out of existence? I think I heard that.)



Protoss119 said:


> I think there was this one fellow on the imageboard that shall not be named that said there were only 6,800 SoB left in the galaxy or something like that, using the SoB entry in the 5E rulebook as a source. I say that's a load of Jarate; there's roughly 1,000 chapters of Astartes in the galaxy and only 6,800 SoB? With the Imperial Guard being such a massive organization and the Schola Progenium being so prominent, there has got to be tons and tons of Stormtroopers; by that logic, there could be tons of SoB out there in the galaxy.


6'800 is a very specific number. I think you're thinking of the 5e rulebook bit I mentioned in my first post.



5e said:


> The Adepta Sororitas, or the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant as they are otherwise known, are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum armies. Utterly dedicated to the protection of the Imperium, the Battle Sisters are trained and equipped to the highest standards. Wherever there are foes of the Emperor, the Sisters of Battle will be found fighting to the last.
> 
> There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters. An Order's warriors rarely fight as a single unit, but instead are commonly spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones. Nevertheless, the Sisters of Battle rank amongst the Imperium's most trusted defenders, for their unshakeable faith can overcome all but the most terrible foes.


So yeah, depending on how many 'several thousand' really is, you've got maybe thirty thousand, fifty at a push, including the Orders Minoris of up to )gosh!) _a hundred_ sisters. That means if you're using Sisters of Battle in an apocalypse game, you may well be fielding more than an entire Order...

Nevertheless, that would appear to be the canon as of fifth edition. No, I don't know what happened to thee other three Orders Majoris either.



Kettu said:


> Oh dear Emperor, Azezel, you didn't just step into a minefield, you dove headlong into it.


I am not a wise man.

Anyway - so far as I know, the sisters of silence may still exist in M41, we just don't know. Considering how rare blanks are, it's always bugged me that the Telepathica just ignore half of them (unless there are Brothers of Silence too? I'd buy that.)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the Worf Effect. I think thee Necrons suffer from the same malady.

I don't think that the sisters (or anyone else) should be able to effortlessly gun down swathes of marines and win victory after victory with contemptuous ease. All I really want is for the fluff to present them (and all other armies) as winning some battles.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed poor Olianus Pious has been retconned away. The doomed soldier of the Imperium has changed a few times now. First i think to an Imperial Fist and in the latest incarnations a Custode. By the end of the HH series when we finally get that fight is when we will truely see. I believe it will end up being Amon or Haedo.

Back to the Sisters, i do believe they needed some scaling down, maybe not to the extent of becoming everyones bitch as of late, but being the go to people for rogue Astartes is a bit much. And as for the fight against four chapters and the admech, they were defending pretty much the most fortified and secure(secret Custode tunnels aside) stronghold in the Imperium apart from the Emperors Palace. Any good force defending such a bastion would be able to hold it off against numerous enemies. And they were over 10,000 strong, outnumbering the Astartes over 2:1. Its admirable yes, but not uber bad assery on the cale you are talking


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Azezel said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head with the Worf Effect. I think thee Necrons suffer from the same malady.


The Necrons actually subvert this, on the table top they're about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but in the books they appear and the lore written about them they're virtually unstoppable. Killing Astartes (loyalist and traitor) with the same ease an Astartes could kill a human.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Simple answer:

They're women.
Everyone knows that women don't age particularly well, and the SoB aren't any different. And with all aging women, their significant other (GW) would naturally have a lack of interest on a old hag like her and concentrate on new pastures; like that filthy little minx in the office who always give him the eye (dark eldar).

Simple question gets a simple answer :biggrin:.


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## Inquisitor_Win (Jun 9, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> ... They're women....


This, to me, sums up the reason for their gradual de-evolution. Since MostWritersAreMale, there comes a point where having women outperforming men becomes uncomfortable, thus the need to have them 'powered down'.

For me, the Sisters of Battle 'strength' is not physical, like that of Space Marines [although, having Power Armor helps a lot]; and even though in one on one battles, a Sister will most likely be squashed by a Brother Marine 5 out of 6 times [I give the Sister the benefit of one Act of Faith to manifest at least once:wink:]; I don't think that a Sisters of Battle army should be inferior to their Space Marine counterpart, or any other army for that matter.

While the Space Marines concentrate in small super powerful units; other armies compensate by sheer numbers, long-ranged firepower and in our girls' case, by Faith.

Unfortunately, the SoB are not the 'hot selling item' so the writting will always be lacking and they will be relegated to a second or third place. Armies opposing the Imperium will never suffer as much fluff-wise; if for no other reason; because, defeating amazingly powerful enemies, helps your 'heroes' look even cooler.

It will always come down to the writers; and when most of the written material outside the codices [I'm looking at you Black Library ] portray them as stupid, incompetent and easily corruptible; I can understand why the Sisters of Battle won't be seen in a good light for the time being.

I just pray to the Emperor they won't get 'Sqatted'; in terms of Codices, they have the coolest fluff I've seen. And they are the reason I started playing the game in the first place.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Inquisitor_Win said:


> This, to me, sums up the reason for their gradual de-evolution. Since MostWritersAreMale, there comes a point where having women outperforming men becomes uncomfortable, thus the need to have them 'powered down'.


In Tyrannus' defence, I think he was making a joke. In any event, one ought never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetance. The Black Library do not make the sisters look bad because they are women, and with the exception of Sandy Mitchel (who just plain dislikes the army, and best of luck to him, I don't like all of the armies either) I don't think they have any sort of grudge against the Sisterhood at all.



Inquisitor_Win said:


> I just pray to the Emperor they won't get 'Sqatted'; in terms of Codices, they have the coolest fluff I've seen. And they are the reason I started playing the game in the first place.


They won't get squatted - GW swore never to do that again.

However if GW make all the models direct-only blisters, increase the price, discontinue the codex, remove key sections of the .pdf and never mention the Sisters in any suppliments, then that's technically not squatting.

The best case scenario for a new 'dex is late 2011, but the smart money right now is on mid 2012.

Keep the Faith.


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## Inquisitor_Win (Jun 9, 2010)

Azezel said:


> In Tyrannus' defence, I think he was making a joke.


Yes, I think so too. I just quoted his words because I thought that was the reason behind the Anti-Sisters sentiment I find in some SoB related topics and I wrongfully extrapolated it to the Black Library [for that I apologize, but I still have yet to read a story that paints the Sisters as a whole in a 'good' light; and by that I mean 'as a competent army']



Azezel said:


> In any event, one ought never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetance.


I wholeheartedly agree.



Azezel said:


> ...They won't get squatted - GW swore never to do that again.
> 
> However if GW make all the models direct-only blisters, increase the price, discontinue the codex, remove key sections of the .pdf and never mention the Sisters in any suppliments, then that's technically not squatting.


:shok:



Azezel said:


> Keep the Faith.


:thank_you: Emperor protects.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

Excellent thread Azezel! I am also one who holds an extreme amount of dislike for the fine minds that de-evolutionized the SoB. However as both a Marine player and a SoB player I will agree with some of the points brought up by those fellas from the "we have such a hard on for the SM that everything else is shit" group. 

Physically the SoB should never match the Marines in pure combat ability. The strength, power, and resilience that the Space Marines are trained and bred for is supposed to be the pinnacle of Human evolution and genetic engineering. That being said the point that they have simply failed to grasp is that this strength is not the only way to be a highly efficient and effective killing machine. Mental acuity, tactics, and sheer tenacity in the face of the enemy are also important, and this is where I think that the Sisters excel. This combined with their absolutely unshakeable faith in the Emporer should make them a force to be reckoned with. Am I say that in single hand to hand combat that a Sister should be able to best a Marine.... No. But a group of them with the absolute resolve to not fail the Emporer, completely rooted in the faith that the Emporer will protect them, should be able to give anything a run for their money. 

I think the biggest point that needs to be taken away from this thread is that the Sisters of Battle are a different army than the Marines, play differently than the Marines, and have different strengths than a Marine army. They have been in the past an excellent source of fluff for Imperial buffs, and the problem with them currently is that they have lost the flavor, depth, and character that they used to have. Putting aside who can beat who, and who suborned the service of the Adeptus Sororitas, we SoB players feel a little left out in the current 40k universe. With the new codeci rolling in at 100 pages plus with 25 to thirty pages of fluff, our measely 70 page(approximately) book with a whole whopping 7 pages of background (including the table of contents and cover page) is just pathetic. 

You have a whole group of people who took the time to invest in the miniatures, because they are wonderful and full of detail, and have been patiently waiting for a little love in the fluff and gameplay department, and we are just continually ignored. It gets a little old after a while. Imagine the out cry if the same thing happened to your beloved Space Marines. On top of that, add to the mix that every time the SoB are mentioned in any of the other stories they are portrayed like idiots, weaklings, and worthless. 

I am not saying that a Sisters Army should be able to walk into a renegade chapter monastary and lay the thing to waste, I just wish that we had a competitve army that wasn't the retarded kid in the corner that everyone just tolerates because they have to.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Hmmm...

I don't think the Astartes lack for mental tenacity or creative thinking. Rather, I think their great weakness is that their mindset, tactics, and ethos are limited by the constraints of the artificial societies/cultures they have constructed for themselves over ten millennia. They are, to some degree, inhuman... and their thought process reflects this.

The Sisters of Battle might be zealots, but I think their mindset is ultimately one that lends itself more toward consistently practical war-fighting. I don't think they are that much more extreme than the more brutal Crusading orders of our own world, or the historical Inquisition.

On a side note, I (personally) don't think that the average Sister of Battle possesses a greater degree of faith than an Astartes.  Astartes are wholly dedicated to a cult of hero- and/or Emperor-worship. Even those that don't subscribe to deific beliefs are absolutely committed to the tenets of their Primarch and the Emperor. An Astartes is a warrior fueled every bit as much by ideology as he is by sheer physical power and technology.

Yes, fluff has changed. Some for the better, some for the worst. Astartes are no longer just psychopaths with guns and physical prowess superior to that of an average human (anyone ever seen the old Codex Imperialis, where theoretically almost any human--Arbiter, Guardsman, Tech Priest, member of the Administratum, etc.--could become a better combatant than any Space Marine?). As such, the Sisters of Battle would not be able to fight off Mars and several Chapters UNLESS there was a new fluff context... such as their possessing an immensely more powerful cadre of supporting forces... like an Imperial fleet, supporting Regiments, etc.

And I think that's what grates many fans the most. It's not so much that the Sisters of Battle fluff has devolved... I think it's that Astartes fluff has been raised to a new level, while other factions have been left behind.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Yes, fluff has changed. Some for the better, some for the worst. Astartes are no longer just psychopaths with guns and physical prowess superior to that of an average human (anyone ever seen the old Codex Imperialis, where theoretically almost any human--Arbiter, Guardsman, Tech Priest, member of the Administratum, etc.--could become a better combatant than any Space Marine?). As such, the Sisters of Battle would not be able to fight off Mars and several Chapters UNLESS there was a new fluff context... such as their possessing an immensely more powerful cadre of supporting forces... like an Imperial fleet, supporting Regiments, etc.
> 
> And I think that's what grates many fans the most. It's not so much that the Sisters of Battle fluff has devolved... I think it's that Astartes fluff has been raised to a new level, while other factions have been left behind.


I wouldn't say Astartes fluff has been taken to a new level, but placed where it should have been. They are supposed to be the "elite" of the Imperium after all. Them being better then the other Imperium factions after all.

The claims that the Sisters are the equal of Astartes in combat is crazy, not just from the physical standpoint but the tacital standpoint as well. Using the smurfs as an example they are considered to be among the most strategic thinking chapters out there.

I would put the Sisters as the the best force that can be deployed in numbers for the Imperium. They are a powerful force, better trained then most other forces, and have equipment that is vastly superior to the grunts in the Imperial Guard. They have more numbers then the Space Marines, but pale compared to the Imperial Guard.

They are the Best at what they do. What they do just isn't "Be the Best."

Now with that said, I'd love to see an overhaul of their fluff and codex. I always found them to be a very cool force and I hope to add them to my Imperial force in the near future.

Oh and "All writers are men and thats why the SoBs are getting depowered" is just dumb and sexist. Really.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Oh and "All writers are men and thats why the SoBs are getting depowered" is just dumb and sexist. Really.


I agree that it reflects certain assumptions that are unwarranted. Saying the SoB have been depowered because of male chauvanism is like saying the Squats vanished because GW hates short people.

I think the reason the fluff has de-powered the SoB is partly because of what Phoebus said in that the Marines have been taken to a new level, and partly because the Sisters really don't have a solid, unique identity. It's why they get lumped in with the Inquisition. It's why you normally only see them on the table when they're attached to another force. (My wife's Sisters of Battle force has seen 90% of its tabletop action when fighting alongside my Black Templars.) GW hasn't really defined them in a way that sets them apart. 

Maybe it's partly because their intended role has been usurped by armies like Grey Knights or Black Templars. Maybe it's partly because they don't have a real, convincing backstory that truly fits in the 40k universe. I mean, they didn't come from the Heresy, and they're not really a full fledged modern force. They still feel like an accessory and not a core part of the Imperium.

I think if GW can fix those problems, the SoB would come roaring back with a vengeance.


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## Otep (Mar 18, 2008)

on the flip-side, the whole "gw would never shun their marines" mentality. here are a few key points.

ultra marines are pussies! every battle was conveniently placed on the other side of the galaxy. and the one time they actually were attacked they got massacred! and the ultramarines are gw's poster boys! not to mention the swarmlord according to the codex, out maneuvered one of the best tacticians in the imperium. so the "uber powerful marines" are more then capable of getting smacked down a step or two every now and then!

but, back to our beloved sisters  sisters are what got me into the hobby. i saw these funny little boxes on the selves that looked older. lo-and-behold it was the seraphim! 

i dont know why there is so much hatred towards the sisters and their fluff. they excel in close-to mid ranged weaponry which, ironacally is what the 40k universe is based around (IMO). 

their old fluff is great and the newer fluff is sort of lacking in that same substance. i just hope they dont forget about sisters (then again, they thought the same thing about dark eldar!) i do think some of their older fluff is slightly overwhelming/over powered but what army's fluff can say they dont do the same thing? with the whole soulstorm thing, i think thats what re-sparked the sisters the most. yeah it didnt really have the feel of the models but it did how ever get people intrested in the fanatical women of the game.

i jsut think we're at the bottem of a pit that (hopefully) GW will attempt to help us out of... or bury the hatchet along with all attempts of resurrecting the sisters.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

the sisters are to purge rebel guard or common heresy, is hard for them to get a space marine even supecting heresy.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Otep said:


> ultra marines are pussies! every battle was conveniently placed on the other side of the galaxy. and the one time they actually were attacked they got massacred! .


No, not really.

The Ultramarines formed half the Marines in the field after the Scouring and played a major role in holding the Imperium together. They've had many famous victories over the millenia. Black Reach, Ichar IV, Calth, the Balur Crusade, etc, etc. In fact it was the Ultramarines Honor Company that helped board the Planet Killer.

When the Tyranids attacked at Macragge they where defeated and beaten back.



Otep said:


> not to mention the swarmlord according to the codex, out maneuvered one of the best tacticians in the imperium. so the "uber powerful marines" are more then capable of getting smacked down a step or two every now and then!


Actually the whole version of the 5th Tyranid Codex has changed alot of things. Even in the prievous Nid Codex they ackowledge the tactical acumen of the Ultramarines in the first phase of the battle.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Otep said:


> but, back to our beloved sisters  sisters are what got me into the hobby. i saw these funny little boxes on the selves that looked older. lo-and-behold it was the seraphim!
> 
> i dont know why there is so much hatred towards the sisters and their fluff. they excel in close-to mid ranged weaponry which, ironacally is what the 40k universe is based around (IMO).


Ditto! A squad of Seraphim was the first GW boxed set I ever bought even though my main army is Tyranids. k:

I suspect a lot of us Sisters fans also like them precisely because they're not the uber-macho, all-powerful, all-righteous, all-everything of the Astartes. Really the Marine's train/fight/praise-the-Emperor/repeat routine gets a little stale after a while. They also fit nicely between the cannon-fodder of the IG and elite of the Space Marines gameplay-wise as well. 

Sisters/Inquisition really fill a large and important role as the "internal affairs" of the Imperium. There's huge fluff potential there. As a consumer, I hope GW gives the Sisters their due.


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> The Ultramarines formed half the Marines in the field after the Scouring and played a major role in holding the Imperium together. They've had many famous victories over the millenia. Black Reach, Ichar IV, Calth, the Balur Crusade, etc, etc. In fact it was the Ultramarines Honor Company that helped board the Planet Killer.
> 
> When the Tyranids attacked at Macragge they where defeated and beaten back.
> 
> Actually the whole version of the 5th Tyranid Codex has changed alot of things. Even in the prievous Nid Codex they ackowledge the tactical acumen of the Ultramarines in the first phase of the battle.


Sorry, but I'd just like to share this with you:

*Circa M29:* The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*012.M31-014.M31:* The Horus Heresy. Half of all Space Marine chapters betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. Terra is sieged by the traitors, most Astartes legions suffer major losses, the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are forced to make a stand on Terra, while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld,the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed,and the Emperor is crippled. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*546.M32:* 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*843.M35:* Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*Early M36:* The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor, into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*266.M36:* Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completly destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*723.M36:* The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*995.M40-000.M41* The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*444.M41:* First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*742.M41* Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated.

*745.M41:* First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines homeworld Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids.

*901-912.M41* Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*941-942.M41:* Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.

*757998.M41* The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

*5999.M41* Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

As an additional note of interest, there stands reasonable evidence that the Ultramarines are partially responsible for unleashing the Nightbringer on the galaxy in the current age. On the planet Pavonis, it was brought to the attention of Uriel Ventris, of the 4th company of the Ultramarines, that a group of revolutionaries were digging their way straight to the Nightbringer's sarcophogus while the Dark Eldar rounded up the keys to unlock the thing. Uriel was given a choice: he could either exterminatus the planet, burying the Nightbringer, revolutionaries, and Dark Eldar all at once in a single fell swoop, or he could boost his own ego by making a balls-first attack on the excavation site with nothing but chain swords and bolters. Unfortunately for the entire galaxy, Uriel chose the latter of these options, lost the fight, and let Nightbringer get free.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

:goodpost:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Kettu said:


> Sorry, but I'd just like to share this with you:


Oh, how amusing, 4chan, I love tackling this kind of stuff.



Kettu said:


> *Circa M29:* The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Robute Guilliman, is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Guilliman was not even born at this time. Are you joking?

In fact if you are talking about the Great Crusade itself the Primarchs where being rediscovered at the time. In fact Guilliman is noted to be one of the most sucessful Primarchs.

Index Astartes Ultramarines



> The Primarch soon assimilated the wonders of the Imperium and readily took command of the Ultramarines Legion. As ever, his greatest talents lay in the art of war and he led the Ultramarines to victory after victory, further expanding the Emperor's realm. He liberated countless worlds from the domination of aliens and foul Chaos renegades, but where some of his brother Primarchs left a trail of death and destruction in their wake, Roboute brought peace and fresh prosperity. Every world the Ultramarines liberated rapidly took its place amongst those loyal to the Imperium, and Guilliman's genius for planning campaigns ensured that the planet's population and industry suffered the minimum amount of collateral damage.





Kettu said:


> *012.M31-014.M31:* The Horus Heresy. Half of all Space Marine chapters betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. Terra is sieged by the traitors, most Astartes legions suffer major losses, the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are forced to make a stand on Terra, while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld,the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed,and the Emperor is crippled. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Correct, because Horus ordered them do. And even then they had to fight off the Word Bearers.

Oh, and then right after they formed half the Marines in the field during the Scouring and engaged in a ''decade of total war''.

Index Astartes Ultramarines.



> The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion





Kettu said:


> *546.M32:* 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


The Space Wolves the Blood Angels, the Dark Angels are also all conveniently located away at the same time.

Do you see a problem with this logic?



Kettu said:


> *843.M35:* Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


The Fists, the Angels, the Wolves where also conveniently located away when this occurs...........

Also, it was the Mortifactors, the Ultramarine sucessors, who found that world.



Kettu said:


> *Early M36:* The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor, into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros (Fire Hawks' world) thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Actually it's noted that the majoirty of the Astartes also stayed out of the infighting.



Kettu said:


> *266.M36:* Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completly destroyed by a warp storm, still existing today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


See above. The Blood Angels, the Iron Hands, the White Scars are all conveniently located on the other side of the Galaxy when this happens.



Kettu said:


> Sorr
> *723.M36:* The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Actually we don't know that. We don't know what Chapters where involved at the 5th Black Crusade.



Kettu said:


> *995.M40-000.M41* The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


The same applies to all the other chapters who did not arrive.



Kettu said:


> *444.M41:* First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Do I need to point out all the other Chapters who where not involved?



Kettu said:


> *742.M41* Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated.


Actually no. The Tau Codex notes that the Marines did quite well during the Damocles Crusade. And a few centuries later they even headed the Crusade they hurled back the entire Third Phase Expansion.



Kettu said:


> *745.M41:* First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines homeworld Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids.


Again, a flat out lie. Only the First Company was lost and the Ultramarines drove off the nids. It was nowhere near ''most of the chapter''.



Kettu said:


> *901-912.M41* Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Again, I'll point out all the other chapters who where not involved.



Kettu said:


> *941-942.M41:* Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into an Ork Waaagh! while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels.


Actually no. By 941, the Tyranids had not appeared in the Imperium for two centuries. In fact it was the Ultramarines who helped save Yarrick alongside the Blood Angels.



Kettu said:


> *757998.M41* The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate, and soon Ghazghkull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Yes, while driving the Tau back in the Ziest Crusade and conducting operations against Kraken. (right after they broke Kraken at Ichar IV) Oh, and Honsou and his boys invaded as well. They where sent packing as well.



Kettu said:


> *5999.M41* Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Again, a flat out lie. The Ultramarines commited an Honor Company to the defense of Cadia.

Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield.



> Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.
> 
> The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.
> 
> For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.





Kettu said:


> As an additional note of interest, there stands reasonable evidence that the Ultramarines are partially responsible for unleashing the Nightbringer on the galaxy in the current age. On the planet Pavonis, it was brought to the attention of Uriel Ventris, of the 4th company of the Ultramarines, that a group of revolutionaries were digging their way straight to the Nightbringer's sarcophogus while the Dark Eldar rounded up the keys to unlock the thing. Uriel was given a choice: he could either exterminatus the planet, burying the Nightbringer, revolutionaries, and Dark Eldar all at once in a single fell swoop, or he could boost his own ego by making a balls-first attack on the excavation site with nothing but chain swords and bolters. Unfortunately for the entire galaxy, Uriel chose the latter of these options, lost the fight, and let Nightbringer get free.


Actually no, the whole siuation is more complicated than that. It was ethier killing everybody or denying the Nightbringer it's ship. Note that everybody thought that the Nightbringer's star-eating power came from it's ship. Even the Inquisitor. From the Imperium's point of view they had no idea that the Nightbringer even existed and they thought they had won.

Anyway in conclusion, half the stuff you present operates on faulty logic, or is simply false. I can point out that many other chapters where ''conviently located on the other side of the galaxy'' for all of those conflicts you mentioned. How much Ultramarine fluff have you actually read?

I mean, are you serious in sourcing 4chan? 4chan is good for a laugh, but hardly any of it is serious or operates by any kind of logic at all.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Gree said:


> Oh, how amusing, 4chan, I love tackling this kind of stuff.


Don't try to argue with /tg/, it's pointless.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Don't try to argue with /tg/, it's pointless.


Then it's a good thing this (Heresy Online) is a fairly reasonable site that is moderated by sane people yes?

If people will want to bring this sort of stuff up I'll point out the many flaws in the reasoning.

Alot of the stuff on 4chan is done for humor. It's not really that serious to be honest.

Now can we go back to talking about Sisters once again?


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## Kettu (Nov 20, 2007)

Incidentally, the only time I have ever found this on /tg/ was the one time I posted it. I found it on another forum start of this year and have seen it reposted several times on other forums.

It's not meant to be serious, well, I didn't intend it as such. It is rather a tongue in cheek look at it all.

However, I must note here that during Hive Fleet Behemoth's gluttony reign the Ultramarines fought a rather weakened force by the time it made it's way to Macragge from Orks to Ad-Mech.
And the fleet was only broken after the irreplaceable loss of an Emperor Class Battleship which detonated its warp-drive when it became apparent that otherwise, the Imperium would have lost.

Meanwhile, Kraken was halted after the consuming two different marine homeworlds, most of Craftworld Iyanden, about a dozen Imperial worlds all at full combat alert and finally absolutely everyone dog-piling in at Ichar IV.

It should also be of note that Canoness Praxedes, now Saint Praxedes, was the one who bought time for the refugees to make it off world and for the Imperium forces to mobilise when she led a force of Battle Sisters into the heart of the invasion on the world, breaking the attack on the spaceport and even felling the leading Hive Tyrant in single combat.

As for the Tau thing? The entire crusade took far to long, was halted many times by the rather inferior Tau forces and only ever paused the Tau expansion for the time being as the consolidate their forces ready for the next big push.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I think that the thread has been derailed. The whole point here was to talk about the lack of love that the Sisters have received in recent years, not to bash the smurfs. I think that I am going to take this opportunity to add a few bits from a conversation, albeit brief, that I had with Jervis Johnson at Games Day last year. When I asked him about it he told me that GW's approach to the new codeci for both the Grey Knights and the SoB was to flip-flop the focus in both books. Instead of a Codex that had the feel of the Grey Knights or the Sisters being a subsidiary force to the Inquisition, it would be one where the Inquisition would be taking more of a supporting role. Of course he would not say much more than that with the secret squirrel cloak and dagger shit that GW believes in, but it sounds like to me that we will see a definite shift in the fluff. Who knows, we may even see the Codex called the Sisters of Battle instead of the Witch Hunters. We may see a return to the Sisters being a little more badass in their own right. For my part I don't want the Sisters to be Marines, any more than I want Marines to be Sisters. I would just like to see the fluff brought up to a level where everything else is.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Kettu said:


> It's not meant to be serious, well, I didn't intend it as such. It is rather a tongue in cheek look at it all.


Then don't post it. I am here for serious discussions only.



Kettu said:


> However, I must note here that during Hive Fleet Behemoth's gluttony reign the Ultramarines fought a rather weakened force by the time it made it's way to Macragge from Orks to Ad-Mech.


Not really, the Nids had time to replenish their losses after each battle. Going by the nids it was not exactly weakened.



Kettu said:


> Meanwhile, Kraken was halted after the consuming two different marine homeworlds, most of Craftworld Iyanden, about a dozen Imperial worlds all at full combat alert and finally absolutely everyone dog-piling in at Ichar IV.


Actually the prong that attacked Iyanden was seperate from the one that attacked Ichar IV.



Kettu said:


> It should also be of note that Canoness Praxedes, now Saint Praxedes, was the one who bought time for the refugees to make it off world and for the Imperium forces to mobilise when she led a force of Battle Sisters into the heart of the invasion on the world, breaking the attack on the spaceport and even felling the leading Hive Tyrant in single combat.


I am well aware of that peice of fluff. I don't ever recall demeaning the Sisters at all in my posts.



Kettu said:


> As for the Tau thing? The entire crusade took far to long, was halted many times by the rather inferior Tau forces and only ever paused the Tau expansion for the time being as the consolidate their forces ready for the next big push.


Are you talking about Ziest? Actually no. The Codex makes it clear that Sicarius gutted the Tau expansion and was actually about to carry on a full scale assault into the Tau Empire itself when he was forced to disband the Crusade because of attacks on the Imperium elsewhere. There is nothing about Ziest being halted by inferior Tau forces in the Codex at all.



Midge913 said:


> I think that the thread has been derailed. The whole point here was to talk about the lack of love that the Sisters have received in recent years, not to bash the smurfs. .


Correct, if you wish to discuss this further Kettu I am more than happy to take it to the PM's.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Gree said:


> Then don't post it. I am here for serious discussions only.


Other than it being part of a thread derailment, I'm glad it was posted. I enjoyed the humor of it very much. 

We're not all here to be serious  This is, after all, about a game. 

I think personal disagreements should be resolved through games of WH40K. Who's with me? :grin:


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

unixknight said:


> I think personal disagreements should be resolved through games of WH40K. Who's with me? :grin:


I agree! Duel to the death at noon..... ahem... or a match... at about threeish... then the pub.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

unixknight said:


> Other than it being part of a thread derailment, I'm glad it was posted. I enjoyed the humor of it very much.
> 
> We're not all here to be serious  This is, after all, about a game.


Then that's your opinion. I'm afriad I hold a very different view of things.

But let's get back on topic people. Back to the Sororitas.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Gree said:


> Then don't post it. I am here for serious discussions only.


The beautiful thing about this website, the thing that has enabled me to completely ignore it's bigger, louder, more arrogant cousins, is that there are no fluff nazis waiting to jump down your throat for a minor mis-step or injection of humour. 

People don't take themselve too seriously on here. While we all enjoy a "serious discussion" (and this is one of the better fluff threads in a long time) please don't shoot someone down for lightening the mood a bit.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I always thought that the sisters founding was a little far fetched. The genetically superior space marines, the emperor's greatest tool of destruction, the best of the best of a thousand different worlds, beaten back by women in power armor. Well trained women in power armor but still.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The beautiful thing about this website, the thing that has enabled me to completely ignore it's bigger, louder, more arrogant cousins, is that there are no fluff nazis waiting to jump down your throat for a minor mis-step or injection of humour.
> 
> People don't take themselve too seriously on here. While we all enjoy a "serious discussion" (and this is one of the better fluff threads in a long time) please don't shoot someone down for lightening the mood a bit.


:goodpost:Well said!


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The beautiful thing about this website, the thing that has enabled me to completely ignore it's bigger, louder, more arrogant cousins, is that there are no fluff nazis waiting to jump down your throat for a minor mis-step or injection of humour.
> 
> People don't take themselve too seriously on here. While we all enjoy a "serious discussion" (and this is one of the better fluff threads in a long time) please don't shoot someone down for lightening the mood a bit.


I'm afraid I did not find any part of that post funny. I'm afriad I did not find my mood lightened at all. Perhaps if the post itself started off on saying that it was not serious I would have ignored that. Unfortunately it did not do that. The post was raised in response to another serious point I raised. I was not aiming to shoot anyone down. I simply countered what I saw as false. I appearantly have a very different brand of humor than you.

While I recognize the necessity of lightening the mood, I did not find it funny or amusing in the slighest.

If you have any issue with that then I advise you to take it to the PM where I can discuss it with you. Otherwise let's get back to Sororitas.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Gree said:


> I'm afraid I did not find any part of that post funny. I'm afriad I did not find my mood lightened at all. Perhaps if the post itself started off on saying that it was not serious I would have ignored that. Unfourtunately it did not do that. The post was raised in response to another serious point I raised.


Lol you're to serious. Pretty much everyone thought it was a laugh.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> Lol you're to serious. Pretty much everyone thought it was a laugh.


Then that is their opinion. I however, fortunately hold a different one.

Now can we _please_ get back to Sororitas. I would be more than happy to address any issues in my PM box so we can stop derailing the thread.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> I always thought that the sisters founding was a little far fetched. The genetically superior space marines, the emperor's greatest tool of destruction, the best of the best of a thousand different worlds, beaten back by women in power armor. Well trained women in power armor but still.


A Marine is still going to die if he takes a bolter round to the face. The stronger, better-trained, better equipped side doesn't necessarily always win in warfare. History is full of examples.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Is it impossible for Gree to understand that writers have faults? Mistakes will happen, especially with over a dozen writers spread over the same setting.

And why so serious? The purpose of Heresy is to appreciate the various game systems out there, not bitch and moan about its failings incessantly.


Now, on topic. I`m no expert, so it seems to me that everyone has already reached the main point of the argument. The Sororitas are an outdated codex at the moment but remember the DE? Chances are they`ll update the next book with as much fluff as you need. Just keep an open mind, and be prepared for the fact that things may change.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Chances are they`ll update the next book with as much fluff as you need. Just keep an open mind, and be prepared for the fact that things may change.


Oh I have no doubt that things are going to change and from the way the Dark Eldar turned out we may get a pretty sweet codex out of the deal. Only time will tell.....


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Midge913 said:


> Oh I have no doubt that things are going to change and from the way the Dark Eldar turned out we may get a pretty sweet codex out of the deal. Only time will tell.....


We can hope so, because I read the DE codex over the christmas, and it really is a fantastic piece of work. If a new Sisters dex gets the same fluff treatment I'd think about starting an army myself.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Is it impossible for Gree to understand that writers have faults? Mistakes will happen, especially with over a dozen writers spread over the same setting.
> 
> And why so serious? The purpose of Heresy is to appreciate the various game systems out there, not bitch and moan about its failings incessantly.


I don't recall myself ever moaning about the game systems or the authors who write it, rather a fan post here.

If you have issue with me I suggest you take it to the PM.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I certainly agree that a new codex is necessary for reviving the army's fluff. It's not a magic bullet though. So long as the Black Library and other sources continue to treat the Sisterhood as designated bodycount/thralls to chaos, things will not improve.

On that count, 2011 is promising - at least, compared to previous years.

_Faith & Fire_ is being republished - it's not exactly a positive depiction of the Sisterhood, but it's not complete character assassination and we'll take what we can get.

The very fact that it is being _republished_ indicates that the Black Library think they can sell it, which is a good sign. It means someone out there must be interested.

_Hammer & Anvil_ - also by Swallow is being published and it's certainly possible that he's learned his lesson. Details are scant, but it involves an attempt to re-take (or possibly hold a retaken) Sanctuary 101. The publication date was recently pushed back for some reason.

_Red & Black_ is an audiobook. Almost nothing is known about it, but it's said to be written by Sandy Mitchell - who gives the impression that he just plain does not like the sisterhood. He may be able to overcome that, though. Time will tell.

One new novel, one republished and an audiobook will be far and away the best year the Sororitas has ever had from the Black Library - which is depressing, but like I said, we'll take what we can get.


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## Inquisitor_Win (Jun 9, 2010)

Azezel said:


> _Hammer & Anvil_ - also by Swallow is being published and it's certainly possible that he's learned his lesson.


I sure hope so. I finished Faith and Fire out of commitment to the Sisters; I just didn't find it engaging enough.



Azezel said:


> _Red & Black_ is an audiobook. Almost nothing is known about it, but it's said to be written by Sandy Mitchell - who gives the impression that he just plain does not like the sisterhood. He may be able to overcome that, though. Time will tell.


_"In fact the only team that ever regularly beat the commissar cadets were the novitiates of the Adepta Sororitas, who seemed to think the point of the game was sending the greatest number of opponents they could to the sanitorium rather than scoring goals."_ From the Caves of Ice. I still have faith. 



Azezel said:


> One new novel, one republished and an audiobook will be far and away the best year the Sororitas has ever had from the Black Library


Add a Codex and new models and it will be the best year for the Sororitas ever!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Azezel said:


> _Red & Black_ is an audiobook. Almost nothing is known about it, but it's said to be written by Sandy Mitchell - who gives the impression that he just plain does not like the sisterhood. He may be able to overcome that, though. Time will tell.


It's actually by James Swallow, and acts as a prequel to _Faith and Fire._


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