# CSM 600 point against Nids



## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

So my friend and I are literally just starting out in 40k. We've read the codex's and he's picked tyrannids and I've picked chaos.

We're starting off with just buying two squads and an HQ, as is recommended by the books.

For 600 points, this is what I have for dealing with him.

HQ

Dark Apostle (Sorceror) 
Terminator Armor, Twin Linked Bolter, Force weapon
Wind of Chaos
Combi-Weapon (Flamer)


Chaos Space Marines Squad (10) 
Aspiring Champion
Power Fist for AC
Twin-Linked Bolter for AC
Missile Launcher
Flamer

Khorne Berzerkers Squad (10) 
Skull Champion
Power Weapon

Clearly it's a ton of blast and template weapons, with the berzerkers being used to tie him up long enough for the shooty group to take him down.

He's got a tyrant, gaunt squad and genestealer squad to work with.

Any thoughts everyone?


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## Insanity101 (Jan 13, 2008)

Before anyone else can warn you, take off the +whatevers. GW frowns on that stuff. Stupid bs GW rules.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Eek, fixed. I just copy/pasted from my notepad doc where I was working the numbers out. Good catch Insanity.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

You do realize that you can't shoot into combat, so if your berserkers are in combat then your guns are useless on that squad. 
And in low points games its easy to get all your shots blocked by combat.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Yeah I do realize that. I'm just hoping to theoritically tie up his genestealers with my berzerkers while my CSM squad guns down his other units. The genestealers and the tyrant are the big threat I think, so they're priority to be taken down. Plus the CSM are decent in CC so if it turns into a full on CC game then I should be okay (as long as I can thin his numbers with a missile or two before the whole mess starts).

Is my logic completely off here or is that right?


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## Regwon (Nov 22, 2007)

genestealers will tear berzerkers to shreads in combat unless the squad is only 5 models or something. youll also have trouble killing his T6 tyrant with most of your guys only being S4. think about giving a powerfist to your skull champion so that he hits a little harder.

for your sorcerer if you give him mark of nurgle and nurgle's rot, not only does he become a lot harder to kill but with their poor armour your opponents gaunts and stealers will die in droves to the psycic power.

if you remove wind of chaos and the combi flamer from your sorcerer you can give him mark of nurgle and nurgles rot and if you remove the twin-linked bolter from your aspiring champion (not really needed) and the flamer (ranged weapons are better here) then you can afford to give your skull champion a powerfist instead of a power weapon (4 S8 attacks is very good)

really your tactic should be stand there and shoot his genestrealers so that when they charge you there wont be enough left to cause any serious damage. when his army gets you, you should be able to take his charge without too much trouble and then counter charge with your berzerkers with devastating effect.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Yeah I've considered switching to MoN and nurgle's rot. Only problem of course is that a Word Bearers army with a MoN lord is a little.... odd.

Also, does the force weapon that the sorcerer has count as an instant death weapon when it's used to kill an opponent or is that a stand alone sort of rule? It doesn't specifically say, "Instant Death" just says it kills despite the number of wounds.

I certainly wanted to give my skull champ a power fist, it's just so damn expensive. I guess him getting Inititative 1 won't really matter in this case, since he's going to go last against those Inititative 6 stealers unless I get some cover anyway.

He's only running with about a dozen stealers and a dozen gaunts (since he only bought one box of each) so he doesn't seriously outnumber me.


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## Horus's Hat (Feb 16, 2008)

I'd give your Sorceror the Mark of T, Using two powers a turn can turn the tide quite easily.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

take the twin linked bolter off your AC
Give the Berzerker squad a powerfist
You'll need to use the fists or some plasma to take out the hive tyrant if he's got the 2+ armor save. They can be difficult to take out

So Tyranid synapse makes them immune to Instant Death. Force weapons do not function by instant death, they simply strip all wounds off a model (and it dies). So to the best of my knowledge, Force weapons work on Tyranids. But now consider this, the hive tyrant has 6 toughness so your sorcerer would wound him on a 6. Not so great.

Two sorcerer powers would be nice but in 600 pts you should focus on troops

Also do not let his genestealers attack your Berzerkers that is a terrible idea. Stay away from those things and shoot them with all the bolters you've got, gaunts are harmless in comparison. Chaos Space Marines are tough troops and you can dispatch locked gaunts easily enough, they wound you on 5 and you get a 3+ armor save. It's the rends from a dozen genestealers attacking first that will do you in. 12 genestealers charging = 36 attacks = 6 rends = 6 Khorne berzerkers DEAD before you get to retaliate... and then there's the non-rending attacks too.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

So what it basically comes down to is I *have* to take down the majority of his units at ranged or I'm completely screwed? Also, it seems like damn near everything with multiple wounds is immune to instant death in this game, so what's the point, honestly? I guess it's good for bringing down space marine commanders and such, but still.

Burn down the stealers, then worry about the gaunts. That sounds easy enough in theory. I have a feeling this is going to be much easier once my army has some ordinance fire huh...

Alas, it seems like there's no melee counter for stealers in the chaos army. I assumed that berzerkers are our best troop melee unit, so it seemed logical to use them as a counter. I guess looking at the numbers... that doesn't work out unless I have cover and get the 10 initiative.

Do 'nids get any sort of cover counter like the marine's frag grenades or is cover my best bet for dealing with them?


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Damocles said:


> So what it basically comes down to is I *have* to take down the majority of his units at ranged or I'm completely screwed? Also, it seems like damn near everything with multiple wounds is immune to instant death in this game, so what's the point, honestly? I guess it's good for bringing down space marine commanders and such, but still.
> 
> Burn down the stealers, then worry about the gaunts. That sounds easy enough in theory. I have a feeling this is going to be much easier once my army has some ordinance fire huh...
> 
> ...


You're not so screwed... if he's only running a Hive Tyrant for synapse, any unit starting out its movement >12" from it has to make a leadership test or act retarded. That's the downside. And you're really not so screwed when it comes to shooting either as bolters will AP half their guys and heavy bolters will AP the stuff like upgraded warriors. You want to give Tyranids a bad day, load up on heavy bolters, heavy & normal flamers.

Genestealers are good, it's getting them into combat that's the problem. They get closer if they can infiltrate, but doing that means they need a Broodlord so they lose fleet of foot. Whatever they do, shoot them up, and keep an eye on them. Move/fleet/assault gives them a possible 18" assault range.

Being in cover won't help much, for 1 pt they can have flesh hooks which act as Frag grenades (strike simultaneously into cover). 

If you are about to be charged, deny it to him. Move up, fire bolt pistols and flamers, and charge whats left. CSM are good at melee, it's just the rends that you have to look out for.

Berzerkers are good, they will cleave up huge squads of gaunts (a full squad charging gaunts should kill almost 20, although you should plan it so that there's a couple unengaged gaunts, so you'll kill them in your opponent's assault phase, letting you charge the zerkers again in your turn). 

Plague marines would be good at taking a charge... not from genestealers because rends will still destroy them, but gaunts attacks practically bounce off of them, and they negate charge bonus attack.

Thousand sons... semi-worthless against tyranids.

Noise marines should work pretty awesome against nids, you can give them all 24" 4-5 assault 2 weapons. This is way better than rapid fire, as you can just keep falling back or moving off to a flank, unloading on Nids the whole time. And if you get far enough ahead you can sit still for a turn and fire the guns 3 times. Might wanna look into it.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Thanks a lot Absolute, that made me feel a lot better about the situation. I was starting to get the feeling that I might have picked the wrong army.

Whatever though, I picked the army that I'm going to love playing for the rest of my life just because of the style. 

I'm not a numbers player, I just hate losing >.< 

I was thinking about Noise Marines, but it seemed like all the pinning weapons would be a waste since 'nids are immune to just about everything. Fortunately they're not immune to mass reactive bullets, or I'd be in trouble.

This is the final choice of army I'm going with against the 'nids based on the advice I've gotten here (while keeping my dark apostle more dark apostle like...):

HQ

Dark Apostle (Sorceror)
Terminator Armor, Twin Linked Bolter, Force weapon
Wind of Chaos

Chaos Space Marines Squad (10)
Aspiring Champion
Power Fist for AC
Missile Launcher


Khorne Berzerkers Squad (10) 
Skull Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon

So there it is. Gave up some of the shooting options for some more power fist action. Gave the zerkers an icon so my sorc can deep strike and put his wind of chaos to use without getting scattered into some clusterfrak. 

I would go with MoN and Nurgle's rot, but I'm trying to keep things fairly fluffy to word bearers, so hopefully it'll work out.

Final thoughts?


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I wouldn't even deepstrike the sorcerer, there's not many advantages to it. And he may not come in until turn 3, or 4, who knows. I would just put him in the CSM squad. 

I dont know what kind of units Word Bearers can take. Just looking at what you've got there, i'd say focus the firepower on the 'stealers (which wastes the missile launcher, which should be firing at the hive tyrant [assuming no 2+ save upgrade]). Once stealers are mowed there's just a tyrant and gaunts... I've never played Chaos but I really think that 12 gaunts you should be able to ignore. Mathhammer: 12 gaunts = 24 attacks on charge = 12 hits = 4 wounds = ~1 dead, it'll be +1 dead if they get to shoot and +.5 dead in each subsequent round of assault. You *should* be able to ignore him, concentrate power fists on the Tyrant, and he'll go down quick enough, just not before he squashes a few of your marines. 
Really depends on how he's equipped Tyrants have a lot of customizability.


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

You could take out most of the guant squad with one assault from the Berzerkers, don't worry about them much. The only threat they pose is tying up your units so they can't shoot the tyrant as he makes his approach. I would try to kill the stealers with bolters first. You may want to think about plasma pistols in the Berzerker squad as something that can put wounds on the tyrant. The 2 power fists should kill it, but I would want to take a wound off it before assaulting if possible. Sounds like you're well on you way to a fun army, don't get down about Chaos, there are so many options that you can pick up later you'll never run out of new toys.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Yeah plasma weapons worry me at this low point kind of game though. I don't like the idea of someone getting smoked by his own weapon when I only have 21 units on the field...

At a higher point game that sounds good though. I'm not exactly down about it, I'm pumped because chaos is great from a story point of view, and since all armies are viable it should be fine. I've just been hearing a lot about chaos getting nerfed in a few spots in the new codex and that worries me a tad, you know?


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Damocles said:


> Yeah plasma weapons worry me at this low point kind of game though. I don't like the idea of someone getting smoked by his own weapon when I only have 21 units on the field...
> 
> At a higher point game that sounds good though. I'm not exactly down about it, I'm pumped because chaos is great from a story point of view, and since all armies are viable it should be fine. I've just been hearing a lot about chaos getting nerfed in a few spots in the new codex and that worries me a tad, you know?


Oh, don't worry about that. I'd say, for a beginning player, Tyranids are going to feel a lot more nerfed than Chaos. The new Chaos codex got some complaints because mainly a lot of fluff and specialization was removed, and now it is a lot simpler. It's still very effective tho! I don't play Chaos but been reading their codex a lot, it's nice to see troops that are capable and reliable.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Yeah the daemonic gifts stuff seemed like a hell of a mess in the old codex. I love the fluffy stuff though.

So what's the deal with deep striking? Is it not worth it until I've got a squad of terminators doing it with the HQ? Or do you think it's just not worth it at all? Seems like a great little ability from a tactical standpoint, good for popping a tank in the rear or something that's giving my troops trouble, but I guess it's pointless for such a low point game.


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## Plague30 (Mar 18, 2008)

I am also making a Word Bearer army and this is my first army. I have yet to play a game but I visit the local gaming store and have started assembling a CSM army. This thread has helped me but where did you get a lot of the Word Bearer fluff? I already picked up Dark Apostle the book. I picked Chaos and the Word Bearers for the same reasons you did it seems. They are just bad mofos and demons are cool


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

My word bearers fluff comes from a combination of reading the horus heresy books and dark apostle. The initial spark of wanting to play a WB army came from dawn of war dark crusade because the chaos army in that one is a word bearers host. Also, there's plenty of stuff on the web about them.

It's just the fact that they're a bunch of religious zealots that mirror the space marine's own fervor for the Emperor, albiet darkly. Plus, if it wasn't for Lorgar and Erebus, I doubt Horus would have ever fallen and 40k would be a VERY different place.

I picked chaos itself because I love the concept of fallen heroes and lost potential. In all forms of art, this tends to be the most beautiful in a horrific sort of way.

I got a bit off topic, but I hope that helps, Plague.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Damocles said:


> Yeah the daemonic gifts stuff seemed like a hell of a mess in the old codex. I love the fluffy stuff though.
> 
> So what's the deal with deep striking? Is it not worth it until I've got a squad of terminators doing it with the HQ? Or do you think it's just not worth it at all? Seems like a great little ability from a tactical standpoint, good for popping a tank in the rear or something that's giving my troops trouble, but I guess it's pointless for such a low point game.


The deal with deepstriking is... you have to roll for reserves first, so turn 2: 4+, turn 3: 3+, turn 4 and beyond 2+. But theoretically you can get very screwed on reserves.

The second thing is once your guy comes out of reserves, you MUST immediately deepstrike him. There is not always a good location for him to do this. And, besides deepstriking within 6" of an Icon, deepstrike has a potential scatter of 12", which means it's very dangerous. Also, guys deepstruck in must be in base to base contact, meaning that they are big targets for stuff like plasma cannons, Demolisher rounds, or for me since i'm Eldar, good ol 9-2 fireprism blasts. 

With Chaos I feel DS is best for anti-tank. That would entail Obliterators and suicide Termies with combi meltas. The reason I didn't like the idea of your Sorcerer deepstriking is he can't really target anything, he's pretty much got Wind of Chaos, which is short range and requires a psychic test... and WoC is the kind of thing you'd use against guys with good armor saves -- exactly the type of guys who will charge your sorcerer and eat him in close combat the next turn.

Furthermore... if you want to deepstrike a sorcerer with Termies, you cannot because you have to roll for reserves separately -- they cannot be pre-attached to each other. 

Hope that helped.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Wow... that's pretty lame. So WoC is for things I can't normally wound easily (because of the poisoned weapon kind of attack that it is), but then those things butcher the sorc.... so I have to use him when he's attatched to a squad then? That seems the most logical, to attatch him to a tough squad so he doesn't get smoked on a charge.

Only problem with that is he's in terminator armor and doesn't that mean the entire squad he's attatched to can't sweeping advance?

What's the reasoning behind the reserves roll anyway? Is it supposed to represent the warp screwing with teleportation or drop pods being attacked on the way down to the planet etc? 

I mean it would be great if not for that reserves roll, but I suppose it's a balance issue to keep a squad of termies from suicide dropping someone's super heavy tank or whatnot in the first round.

Argh, there's so much to keep track of in this game. I hope it becomes natural after a while...


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

oh it becomes very natural after a while. I've only played about a dozen games of 40K in my life. But still 24/7 i've got stats and mathhammer spinning through my brain. Damn GW got me all addicted.

Sorcerer out on his own is semi defenseless, a stray lascannon or a powerfist hit in cc can just instant kill him. Yes i'm pretty sure he prevents your squad from a sweeping advance.

Reserve rolls represent reinforcements coming in from nearby sectors or something, so the roll represents the random aspect in which they arrive. 

Honestly the Terminator lord is one of the coolest looking models around, but competitively speaking, the Daemon Prince is far preferred. For about the same cost he is also a spellcaster, and he is an absolute beast in combat, add on wings and you've got a mobile spellcaster who's a beast in combat AND is a monstrous creature so he can take out vehicles. It's the perfect killing machine. Competitive lists have 2 Daemon princes, but i'd never do the double lash of submission list, i'd rather play for fun.


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## Plague30 (Mar 18, 2008)

Damocles said:


> My word bearers fluff comes from a combination of reading the horus heresy books and dark apostle. The initial spark of wanting to play a WB army came from dawn of war dark crusade because the chaos army in that one is a word bearers host. Also, there's plenty of stuff on the web about them.
> 
> It's just the fact that they're a bunch of religious zealots that mirror the space marine's own fervor for the Emperor, albiet darkly. Plus, if it wasn't for Lorgar and Erebus, I doubt Horus would have ever fallen and 40k would be a VERY different place.
> 
> ...


hmm i'm a huge RTS fan and i love DoW but never played Chaos in Dark Crusade. Went w/ Tau for that one. Cool. I have been playing Word Bearer Chaos in SoulStorm and they are cool. Just cosmetic but whatever. I'm gonna pick up some Horus Heresy books. Thanks. 

PS - I'm going with a Demon Prince as my HQ. Fits in nicely fluffwise and the DPs are bad mofos.


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

Yeah my second HQ is going to be a Daemon Prince of nurgle. I just wanted a dark apostle to be my first HQ for fluffy reasons. I figure I'll buy some plague marines and the prince together to seal the deal.

I've gathered that the DP is a thousand times better than the lord/sorc but I just love the customization and damn near countless options I have for the both of them. Makes your HQ more memorable in my humble opinion.

That's exactly what I said to my friend with the 'nid army: "Your army is cool, but everyone looks the same, mine has personality."

Woah, way off topic.

I haven't played soulstorm yet, waiting for the price to go down (I could buy a chaos rhino for the same price as SS right now, not a hard call).

By the way, how much do I need rhinos and land raiders for a chaos army? It seems like it's almost a must, but I'd love some thoughts on it.


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

You don't have to worry about plasma weapons hurting you near as much as you'd think. First you have to roll a 1 to hit, then you have to fail an armor save. It's not really often that it happens. And if it does, chalk it up to blood for the blood god.

Land Raiders are no where near a necessity. I've been playing for over 8 years and I just bought one about 6 months ago. I've only fielded the thing once. Its only really helpful if you're terminator happy, or playing really large games. I normally play 1.5k-2k games and still don't field one. I can usually find something I would rather field for the points cost.

Rhino's aren't necessary, but very helpful. They get blown up a lot, but they usually get you at least half way across the board before they do, and we all know Chaos is better when in CC.

I really like the fact that you're into Word Bearers for the fluff. There's no bonus's to stick to fluff anymore like there was to the old codex, but it still seems like a lot more fun to me to stick with it. I really love that fact that you built your Dark Apostle first even though a Daemon Prince probably would have suited you better. You'll enjoy your army more if you field it like you think the Word Bearers would run it.

Absolute035 is right about the rules, they'll start comin to ya. Just takes a while and then you don't even have to think about it anymore (unless you play tired like I always do).


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

What i've gathered about Rhinos is that while you risk being entangled for a turn, they can work out very well, as they can become mobile walls. After they're destroyed they become 4+ cover save for you to put your squad in. 

I don't like the land raider, it can't decide if it wants to be a gun platform or a transport. As a gun platform, why do you pay so much for transport capacity, and as a transport, why does it have these lascannons it can't shoot? Land raider crusader makes a little more sense anyway.


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## Lore-Colten (Mar 28, 2008)

maybe its just a tactic of mine, but in small games, wouldnt you rather have 4 squads of 5, not 2 squads of 10?


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## Damocles (Mar 18, 2008)

I figured it made more sense to have the larger squads so I could get the "If you have 10 members or more" special weapons option.

The reason I love the fluff so much is that I'm a roleplayer at heart, and depth of gaming is way more interesting than numbers. Numbers games can get old really quickly, but if you're playing with something that has some guts to it, then it never gets old.

I'm thinking I'll get a Rhino soonish, just so that I have the option to use it.

Come to think of it (as I'm writing this in stream of consciousness with no real organization) if I divided it into 4 squads of 5 I could have 4 champions running around instead of two.

Hmm...

Wouldn't that be overly expensive though?

Edit: Fixed a glaring typo.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

There's a big reason we don't run squads of 5 and that's morale tests. Unless the unit if fearless, you're going to take a morale test for under 50% unit strength after 3 guys die. 2 guys gives the under 75% test.

Also there's safety in numbers. The more attacks you deal, the less of the enemy there is to strike back next turn, so the less casualties you take. You want every battle to be as one-sided as possible, and small units make it easy for the enemy to pick them apart.


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## CypherVII (Apr 2, 2008)

yeah true true i would go with maybe 3 squads of 7ish for more mobility and get a armour like a defiler of dred for cc i think a dred could hold combat against geanstealers with a couple of upgrades


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