# Whats the new Competitive Build for CSMs



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I want your input base on the new FAQ and current New dexes out there on whats the best Competitve and copy paste units in out CSM Dex now?


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I will still be running this list right here
HQ 1: Daemon Prince Wings Lash of Submission Mark of Slaanesh 
ELITES 
Terminator Squad 3 x Terminators 3 x combi meltas in Transport 1 
Terminator Squad 3 x Terminators 3 x combi plasma in Transport 2 
Terminator Squad 3 x Terminators 2 x combi plasma
TROOPS 
Chaos Space Marine Squad 5 x Chaos Space Marines 
Chaos Space Marine Squad 5 x Chaos Space Marines 
Chaos Space Marine Squad 5 x Chaos Space Marines Icon of Chaos Glory in Transport 3 
HEAVY SUPPORT
3 x Obliterators 
3 x Obliterators 
3 x Obliterators 

Transport 1: Land Raider 
Transport 2: Land Raider 
Transport 3: Chaos Rhino

The faq nerfs lash a little bit, but i will just have to deal with it


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

personally i think that there isnt much of a difference for unit disposition minus a change of what psychic powers to give your demon prince(s).


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

The new competitive build is playing Blood Angels as Night Lords, Grey Knights as Thousand Sons etc etc. Or packing up your marines and retreating to the Eye of Terror (or Maelstrom) for the next Thousand Years or however long GW decides to wait before the next CSM codex.

For me to actually try and come up with a competitive list what pts are we talking about 1500, 2000 or 2500, because to be honest I would imagine 1500 will be difficulty as most things are overcosted in the CSM codex and at 2500 we simply don't have enough to deal with the mased out enemies we would be facing, making (perhaps) 2000pts the only points level CSM still have a relative chance and aren't 7-3 underdogs or worse.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Give me Competitive ubits as in WT princes still awsome, or Lash Prince still worth, or maybe a all new Prince build that work well for its points now. Also what units still work when facing GKs, BAs, SWs, and the rest of those common Tourney winning Dexes.



D-A-C said:


> The new competitive build is playing Blood Angels as Night Lords, Grey Knights as Thousand Sons etc etc. Or packing up your marines and retreating to the Eye of Terror (or Maelstrom) for the next Thousand Years or however long GW decides to wait before the next CSM codex.


I know but at least Spikey Marines can ezly fit the bill of more awsome SM Dexes.

Mcmuffin I thought you ran Kharn Competivly?


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I'd probably play something like:

Daemon Prince
-Wings
-Warptime
-Bolt of Change
200 points

3x Chaos Terminators
-2x Combi-Melta
100 points

Dreadnought
-Multi-Melta
100 points

10x Chaos Space Marines
-2x Meltagun
-IoCG
Rhino
215 points

10x Chaos Space Marines
-2x Meltagun
-IoCG
Rhino
215 points

8x Khorne Berzerkers
Skull Champ w/ Power Fist
Rhino
243 points

3x Obliterators
225 points

3x Obliterators
225 points

3x Obliterators
225 points

1748/1750


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I think the competitive units are about the same. Only real change with the psychic powerss change making the nurgle prince with rot comming out better than before. Lash and warptime being worse than before. Kharn still one of the best characters to use too


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

@Warlock-That list i mentioned above is one i would give to someone who wants to get good quick with CSM at tournaments. I prefer more . . .alternative builds. like less obliterators, more berzerkers and more KHAAAAAAAAAAARN! But yes, i generally run kharn, 3 units of berzerkers, a lash prince and maybe 4-5 obliterators. 

@D-A-C
I find 1k to be the best points level for CSM at the minute, because you can still max out obliterators and have a lash prince with 3 minimum troops units. 1850 is also fine to be honest, It just requires finesse to take them to the top level.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

The new black for CSM is the black darkness of the inside of a closed box till the new Codex comes out....


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## Warsmith Drewgie (Oct 26, 2011)

MaidenManiac said:


> The new black for CSM is the black darkness of the inside of a closed box till the new Codex comes out....


 I totally agree. My current competitive list is the one where I replaced all my Rhinos and Land Raiders with Venoms Raiders and Ravagers. :so_happy:


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The monobuild that I posted earlier is still a very competitive list that will do well in a tournament provided the general is up to scratch.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The old build is still the competitive net list, just don't take warptime. Mind you lash spam now has a additional .18% failure rate, but I will still use it as I only get 5-6 lashes a game anyways.

The competitive lists from 2007-8 are still in, CSM have just been taken down one more peg.

My list is still.
Prince Lash, wings
Prince Lash, wings
Berzerkers in rhino
Plague marines in Rhino
Plague marines in rhino
Chosen
Chosen
Termacide
Oblitorators
OBlitorators
Defiler.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

you're still a jerk for using a defiler 

Lash is a crutch!

Replace warptime with something not horrible! 

Done and done.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

So all in all are competitive builds are just merely not that competitive anymore and we have to deal with it. Sucky. I figure people be using the Cheap Ass Dreads after the faq now too. I might give it a shot this weekend.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Dreads are now middle row rather then bottom row, but I to will start using them..for once


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I've always used a dread....and I even played it the wrist cutting way of it pivoting and blasting the closest model. The record was 2 wrecked rhinos in the 1st 2 turns of the game. Good laugh for me and my opponent, and I still won 

If you plan on playing competatively? You probably shouldnt after the FAQ, unless you're a masochist. Our codex was neutered, and now our shiny toys have been neutered. I'm not sure what GW is thinking...isn't chaos a large percentage of their player base? The faq was salt in the wound for all of us.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> I've always used a dread....and I even played it the wrist cutting way of it pivoting and blasting the closest model. The record was 2 wrecked rhinos in the 1st 2 turns of the game. Good laugh for me and my opponent, and I still won
> 
> If you plan on playing competatively? You probably shouldnt after the FAQ, unless you're a masochist. Our codex was neutered, and now our shiny toys have been neutered. I'm not sure what GW is thinking...isn't chaos a large percentage of their player base? The faq was salt in the wound for all of us.


We just have to suck it up, it will just take better generalship to win.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> We just have to suck it up, it will just take better generalship to win.


QFT

Just because Lash now only works on a 2+ does not mean it's nerfed to the point of being unusable. Warptime is now more of a way to ensure your Daemon Prince doesn't fail all of his attacks and be completely useless.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Better way to do that would to be just taking the mark of khorne.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Better way to do that would to be just taking the mark of khorne.


Eeeeeeeeeeeewwwwww, gross.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> Eeeeeeeeeeeewwwwww, gross.


Ignoring the HQ, for a second. CSM still have some very good troops, even the lowly CSM is quite good, more tactical than a tactical marine. Follow them up with some strong heavy support and some dreadnaughts(now better now) or termicide squads and you have a force that may not mathammer wise be top of the pack, but is flexible and to a good general very flexable force 

HQ wise, I will be trying out my "dakka" prince at my next game, doom bolt and bolt of change. It runs a bit cheeper than the Warptime + Power prince and gives the range options as well... (for the few times when you do not want to drop in to CC)


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

With the new FAQ this isn't so bad

2000 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

Elite: Dreadnought 
1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)

Elite: Dreadnought
1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)

Elite: Dreadnought 
1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)

Heavy Support: Obliterators 
3 Obliterators @ 225 pts (Show Weapon Stats; Lascannon; Linked Flamer; Linked Meltagun; Linked Plasmagun; Multi-melta; Plasma Cannon)

Heavy Support: Obliterators 
3 Obliterators @ 225 pts (Show Weapon Stats; Lascannon; Linked Flamer; Linked Meltagun; Linked Plasmagun; Multi-melta; Plasma Cannon)

Heavy Support: Obliterators 
3 Obliterators @ 225 pts (Show Weapon Stats; Lascannon; Linked Flamer; Linked Meltagun; Linked Plasmagun; Multi-melta; Plasma Cannon)

Troops: Plague Marines 
1 Chaos Sorcerer @ 130 pts (Melta Bombs; Mark of Slaanesh; Lash of Submission)
1 Chaos Sorcerer @ 130 pts (Melta Bombs; Mark of Slaanesh; Lash of Submission)
5 Plague Marines @ 150 pts (Rhino)
1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines 
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines 
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines 
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Twin-Linked Bolter)


Total Roster Cost: 2000

Use lash to keep things away and be sure to position the Dreads correctly as well. The Plague Marines sit back on your home objective while the three squads of CSM have the option of advancing. If not going first don't place the Oblits or Dreads where the enemy can see them.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Dawnstar said:


> Just because Lash now only works on a 2+ does not mean it's nerfed to the point of being unusable. Warptime is now more of a way to ensure your Daemon Prince doesn't fail all of his attacks and be completely useless.


As long as it would be consistent it would be kind of ok, but JOTW, Blood Lance and other powers werent nerfed and thats the sole issue.

GW is faaar to god at being inconsistent for their own good:angry:


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## capnmoe (Mar 11, 2011)

Ragewind said:


> Elite: Dreadnought
> 1 Dreadnought @ 100 pts (Missile Launcher; Missile Launcher)
> 
> Elite: Dreadnought
> ...


You can't put 2 Missile Launchers on a singe dread.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Why do people suddenly think dreads are good? So you build a shooty dread , keep it at the front so it cant shoot your own stuff, then roll a 6 and your dread is now tied up with something that cant hurt it for the rest of the game, wonderful.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> Why do people suddenly think dreads are good? So you build a shooty dread , keep it at the front so it cant shoot your own stuff, then roll a 6 and your dread is now tied up with something that cant hurt it for the rest of the game, wonderful.


There are alot of fun tactics than can be used using dreads! beeing unexpected is not an issue, sure they are going to be the vangard of the advance, but thats fine they are a great way to bring firepower to a "Vernichtungsgedanke" based force.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Uveron, what does that mean?

I do German in college and I can understand that it means something about "Not thanking".

On topic, I think that Dreads could be used very effectively in some sort of Lascannon/Obliterator spam list.

Perhaps there's room for a new list where most models have tank-killing ranged weapons?

I'm thinking winged Daemon Prince of Tzeentch + bolt, three Dreadnoughts with twin-linked Lascannon's, nine Obliterators...

Hell, with all of that anti-tank we could use some Noise Marines or Rubric Marines to take care of troops. They could actually become competitively viable.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Points are better spent on termicide units than on dreads.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

It depends entirely on how you're going to run them.

I know you're pissed off, but you can't deny that.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Point for point, a termicide unit will give more bang for their buck while remaining reliable. I am not pissed off, I play Space Wolves normally, I just wish i could break out Kharn and his cronies as my top choice.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Point for point, a termicide unit will give more bang for their buck while remaining reliable. I am not pissed off, I play Space Wolves normally, I just wish i could break out Kharn and his cronies as my top choice.


I think you are missing the point of taking the new less retarded dreads, and that is the same as SM lists that spam dreads....armor saturation. This tactic is best used with a armor value in every slot. The logic being that it denies the enemy the use of 70% of all their weapons (Anti infantry guns being useless). Mind you its still not the most competitive army, but facing 10-12 units with a av of 11+ can get painful fast if your opponent rolls good.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Weapon said:


> Uveron, what does that mean?
> 
> I do German in college and I can understand that it means something about "Not thanking".


From Wiki- "Vernichtungsgedanke, literally meaning "concept of annihilation" in German and generally taken to mean "the concept of fast annihilation of enemy forces" is a tactical doctrine dating back to Frederick the Great."

Its use as a tactial system is much lower in current wars, but it works for table top games 



Weapon said:


> On topic, I think that Dreads could be used very effectively in some sort of Lascannon/Obliterator spam list.
> 
> Perhaps there's room for a new list where most models have tank-killing ranged weapons?
> 
> ...


The Advantage of Dreads, is that they can advance and support CC as well.. move up the table 6" at a time with firepower (Sure you may surge forward on occasion) arm the Rhinos with Havocs and vindicators that follow the dreads, the blast templates follow up with a barrage. The Normal CSM troops with 2 assault wepons make use of the 3 attacks on the charge to enter CC with the dreads to chop up tarpits.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Most armies bring enough anti-armour to deal with 3 shitty dreadnoughts. CSM don't do the armoured wall very well, considering that the best builds generally have 3> rhinos, which means that the armour saturation theory is somewhat non existent


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

mcmuffin said:


> Most armies bring enough anti-armour to deal with 3 shitty dreadnoughts. CSM don't do the armoured wall very well, considering that the best builds generally have 3> rhinos, which means that the armour saturation theory is somewhat non existent


I agree, Armour saturation is a stupid concept and it never works well. But Dreads are cheep for the firepower they can put out, but will die. So will a termicide squad which is the other choice I see people talking about. 

I personaly would rather have more units on the table at the start of the game than let my force be taken away peacemeal. At least thats there job in my view


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

capnmoe said:


> You can't put 2 Missile Launchers on a singe dread.


Really?> The book says it comes with a DCC and a Gun, after picking your Gun you can replace the DCC with a ML>? Am I reading it wrong?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

It says you can replace *one* CC arm with a missile launcher, while the other arm must be equipped with one of the listed weapons. A ML is not on the list. So no double missile pod dreads.


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

My list

Lash sorc
Lash sorc
Termicide
Plasma cannon dread
Zerkers w/fist (and sorc), rhino
Zerkers w/fist (and sorc), rhino
Plagues w/plasma guns, rhino
Plagues w/plasma guns, rhino
Oblits
Oblits
Defiler

Seems to work okay. Dread, defiler, berzerkers all advance. Lash stuff I want to kill into little plasma/battle cannon clumps, hopefully my zerker rhinos get popped turn 2 so they can charge in my turn, if not disembark and hide behind rhino. 

Oblits/plagues sit in midfield and react while everyone else goes munching on skulls for the blood god.


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> I want your input base on the new FAQ and current New dexes out there on whats the best Competitve and copy paste units in out CSM Dex now?


There isnt any. Im not trying to be condescending by skipping the entire 4 pages of discussion, and I know there are some people who do well with CSM locally, generally those who have played them since dinosaurs and dont have a particularly tough local meta. Today I played 5 games at my lgs. 1 was against a 7 razor, 18 long fang space wolf army. 2 were against a 40 th/ss cyclone spam deathwing army. The other 2 were against a...13 vehicle mech guard army. I am trying to imagine how csm do well against any of these.

All that aside, CSM are an army I am just not afraid of, ever. I would rather fight them than eldar. Its not that they cant compete well against mixed bag armies when run well, its that a really good mech shooty army just destroys you. Look at what most CSM armies are

2 princes/lash sorcerors
termicides/dreads
plagues/zerkers
9 oblits!!!

The lash princes are laughable anymore. They were good in 4th when you could hopscotch terrain, but now they just get spotted and die. I am much more afraid of the sorcerors, as these can hide in units.

Termicides are bad because, they have no reserve manipulation and crappy 2d6 scatter for a melta unit. They are also very easy to shoot/punch to death depending on what army im running. The dreads might do some shooting damage, but all I need to do is get a glance and its not shooting me. 

Plagues are a pain in the ass to kill at range, but are bad against real combat units, and are your only melta, so generally they will be coming at me. They are also extremely expensive. Zerkers I dont think are good, you either spend too many points and put them in a raider, or put them in rhinos in which case they become foot khorne marines, and die anyways to massed shooting.

Oblits are the best thing in your book, and also bad. 9 of them is 675 pts. If I can shoot say...1 squad dead a turn, assuming i also shoot other things, ive got the game. Against a 10+tank list, you can pew pew lascannons at a whopping...2 tanks a turn for ranged anti tank.

I used to play iron warriors, they were my favorite 40k army ever, so I know this feeling 

The biggest problem is, you, the chaos player, has very few ways of keeping me from shooting your stuff off the board, and cannot slow my incoming shots down fast enough. The game becomes eliminate units methodically with shooting while playing clean up.

my 2 cents.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yo dawg, you gotta take a Lord! With Terminator Armour, Mark of Khorne, and a Daemon Weapon! Then you take another one and a big unit of Terminators with the Mark of Khorne and LCs, man! You gotta spam Noise Marines to make your troops choices, because if they cost 20pts they're like Grey Knights mkay dawg? Then we've got this groovy shit called a Spawn, and they're fucking amazing, dawg! Like, awesome! Then finally we gotta have some Havocs in the Heavy Support section, 'cos their guns cost lots, dawg, and stuff that costs a lot must be good, right dawg?

Midnight


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

Durandal said:


> There isnt any. Im not trying to be condescending by skipping the entire 4 pages of discussion, and I know there are some people who do well with CSM locally, generally those who have played them since dinosaurs and dont have a particularly tough local meta. Today I played 5 games at my lgs. 1 was against a 7 razor, 18 long fang space wolf army. 2 were against a 40 th/ss cyclone spam deathwing army. The other 2 were against a...13 vehicle mech guard army. I am trying to imagine how csm do well against any of these.


Err, how would chaos not fair well against the deathwing army, even with the standard net list? 7-10 plasma cannons with dual lash putting those terminators into little clumps? He would lose half his army turn 1.

Space wolves are a tough match, they do everything chaos does, and are cheaper. So chaos has 2000 points of guys where space wolf has 2200 or so in comparison.

Mech guard? Chaos can put out an all deepstrike all melta reserve list pretty easily.

Termicide
Termicide
Termicide
Raptorcide
Raptorcide
Raptorcide
Oblits
Oblits
Oblits
Tzeentch winged prince with bolt
Tzeentch winged prince with bolt

Every one of these units can deepstrike in and pop a tank the turn they arrive.

Then for troops take 2 regular CSM with dual melta guns. Reserve them.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Kevlar said:


> Err, how would chaos not fair well against the deathwing army, even with the standard net list? 7-10 plasma cannons with dual lash putting those terminators into little clumps? He would lose half his army turn 1.


Not necessarily. Deathwing Assault allows the Dark Angel player to hold his army back and arrive on the table at the start of his first turn, meaning that he gets the first chance to shoot unless the Chaos player also reserves his army - a terrible idea considering that Chaos Marines have no ability to manipulate Reserves to their advantage. You can bet that the Daemon Princes and Obliterators would be among the first targets.



> Mech guard? Chaos can put out an all deepstrike all melta reserve list pretty easily.
> 
> Termicide
> Termicide
> ...


Who actually runs lists like this? An army built this way would have horrifically bad match ups in exchange for a small chance of being good against Guard or other mech spam armies. Again, Chaos has no ability to manipulate Reserves so half of his army would be arriving on Turn 2, scattering 2d6 inches (there's a good chance they'd scatter right out of range to do anything) and then get absolutely shot to pieces for their trouble. That army is a total one trick pony that relies entirely on good reserve and scatter rolls to be effective.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

I think that the deamon princes are better exchanged for lash sorcerors. Harder to pick out... and cheaper.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Lash Princes still have a place, however they have lost the ability to compete with other CC HQ units. In 4th ed, not only were they great because they had lash, but they were one of thes best combat forces in the Game due to their high strength and unusually high weapon skill. Now they are dwarfed by things like Thunderlords and any grey knight army due to their poor invulnerable save and mediocre toughness. 

We have lost a lot more than we have gained. Daemon princes need to have a more impressive statline. WS 7, BS 5 S7 T6 W4 I5 A5 3+/4++ with an option for a 2+ save


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

Katie Drake said:


> Who actually runs lists like this? An army built this way would have horrifically bad match ups in exchange for a small chance of being good against Guard or other mech spam armies. Again, Chaos has no ability to manipulate Reserves so half of his army would be arriving on Turn 2, scattering 2d6 inches (there's a good chance they'd scatter right out of range to do anything) and then get absolutely shot to pieces for their trouble. That army is a total one trick pony that relies entirely on good reserve and scatter rolls to be effective.


If you want it to be more precise take 3 units of nurgle melta bikers with teleport homers and turbo them where you want to deepstrike turn 1. A little more risky, you could get shot to pieces, but with 3 units and 3+ invulns, plus T6 someone should make it. You could also then take a greater demon since you will be starting the game with champions on the table. Then its a nice demon bomb on top of the precise deep striking melta. I think an army like that would give a parking lot guard army a rough time. 

It isn't an optimal tournament list, I'm sure grey knights would quickly table it, but it isn't like chaos can't field a list to compete with mech guard. There are other lists that can handle grey knights.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Kevlar said:


> If you want it to be more precise take 3 units of nurgle melta bikers and turbo them where you want to deepstrike turn 1. A little more risky, you could get shot to pieces, but with 3 units and 3+ invulns, plus T6 someone should make it. You could also then take a couple of greater demons since you will be starting the game with champions on the table. Then its a nice demon bomb on top of the precise deep striking melta. I think an army like that would give a parking lot guard army a rough time.
> 
> It isn't an optimal tournament list, I'm sure grey knights would quickly table it, but it isn't like chaos can't field a list to compete with mech guard. There are other lists that can handle grey knights.


So basically what you're saying is that Chaos can maybe beat Guard if they build a gimmicky "hate" list?

That's... not news. Almost any army can do that (probably not Daemons).


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

Katie Drake said:


> So basically what you're saying is that Chaos can maybe beat Guard if they build a gimmicky "hate" list?
> 
> That's... not news. Almost any army can do that (probably not Daemons).


If you read Durandel's post, to which I was originially replying, he stated that he had no idea how chaos could compete with 3 specific lists. Mech guard was one such list. 

Yes, this is a "gimmick" list, but if you are playing in a guard heavy environment and getting your tentacles blown off, then it is one I would consider fielding. I posted a 2000 point list in the army list section if you want to comment on specific units in the list and how they would fail/succeed.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Lash Princes still have a place, however they have lost the ability to compete with other CC HQ units. In 4th ed, not only were they great because they had lash, but they were one of thes best combat forces in the Game due to their high strength and unusually high weapon skill. Now they are dwarfed by things like Thunderlords and any grey knight army due to their poor invulnerable save and mediocre toughness.
> 
> We have lost a lot more than we have gained. Daemon princes need to have a more impressive statline. WS 7, BS 5 S7 T6 W4 I5 A5 3+/4++ with an option for a 2+ save


In 4th ed. I could beat a DP with a few bases of Scarabs, because they would just outnumber him and force him to suicide.

I'n not saying DPs are bad, but you need to be realistic about what they can actually achieve.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Kevlar said:


> If you read Durandel's post, to which I was originially replying, he stated that he had no idea how chaos could compete with 3 specific lists. Mech guard was one such list.
> 
> Yes, this is a "gimmick" list, but if you are playing in a guard heavy environment and getting your tentacles blown off, then it is one I would consider fielding. I posted a 2000 point list in the army list section if you want to comment on specific units in the list and how they would fail/succeed.


I see what you are getting at here, but, the problem is, even if the environment is heavy with mech guard, you will come up against other armies, and the list you proposed would happily fall on its face. Enter Strike Squads, warp quake, boom, half of your army disappears.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Kevlar said:


> If you read Durandel's post, to which I was originially replying, he stated that he had no idea how chaos could compete with 3 specific lists. Mech guard was one such list.
> 
> Yes, this is a "gimmick" list, but if you are playing in a guard heavy environment and getting your tentacles blown off, then it is one I would consider fielding. I posted a 2000 point list in the army list section if you want to comment on specific units in the list and how they would fail/succeed.


Then you play against Grey Knights and may as well just remove your models from the table at the start of your first turn (or just keep them in your case since they're all in reserve... =D ).

So yeah, you're right. You can (sometimes) take games off of Guard if you're lucky or they're seriously unlucky and you cripple yourself against literally everything else.

Unfortunately, everyone has to face it - Chaos sucks in its current incarnation. It isn't fun to admit, but facts are facts.


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Kevlar said:


> Err, how would chaos not fair well against the deathwing army, even with the standard net list? 7-10 plasma cannons with dual lash putting those terminators into little clumps? He would lose half his army turn 1.


Because the deathwing army has a very good shot at rocketing at least one prince off the board turn 1, and can stay spread out to not care about your 5 year old plasmacannon gimmick once your princes are dead. Oh and, fearless hammernators beat all your stuff up in combat.



> Space wolves are a tough match, they do everything chaos does, and are cheaper. So chaos has 2000 points of guys where space wolf has 2200 or so in comparison.


yes



> Mech guard? Chaos can put out an all deepstrike all melta reserve list pretty easily.
> 
> Termicide
> Termicide
> ...


I run a deep striking melta army, a much better one than this goofy chaos list. Its called 'blood angels' I get my shit packed in so hard by imperial guard I poop diamonds for a month. See, the guard guy, if hes smart, has officer of the fleet, so you are -1 to reserve rolls. He will also castle with either a wall of cheap guardsmen or empty chimeras. So you drop in, cant get into melta range, and then get shot off the board. This is fnp jumping melta marines with reroll deepstrikes and 1d6 scatter. You are much less resilient and much much less reliable. So its a horrible loss. That army, if it gets lucky, nets 3 kps off a good guard list. 



Katie Drake said:


> Then you play against Grey Knights and may as well just remove your models from the table at the start of your first turn (or just keep them in your case since they're all in reserve... =D ).
> 
> So yeah, you're right. You can (sometimes) take games off of Guard if you're lucky or they're seriously unlucky and you cripple yourself against literally everything else.
> 
> Unfortunately, everyone has to face it - Chaos sucks in its current incarnation. It isn't fun to admit, but facts are facts.



Im with Katie here. Chaos are by far my favorite faction in the game, but they just suck in the current rules. I have my iron warrior space wolves, and alpha legion/slaanesh grey knights to hold me over until the new book. When that drops, artscale emperors children.


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

mcmuffin said:


> I see what you are getting at here, but, the problem is, even if the environment is heavy with mech guard, you will come up against other armies, and the list you proposed would happily fall on its face. Enter Strike Squads, warp quake, boom, half of your army disappears.


Why would you put them in reserve against an army that only has 24" guns? In that case you would start them on the table. Still plenty of long range fire power.


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## Kevlar (Feb 5, 2012)

Durandal said:


> Because the deathwing army has a very good shot at rocketing at least one prince off the board turn 1, and can stay spread out to not care about your 5 year old plasmacannon gimmick once your princes are dead. Oh and, fearless hammernators beat all your stuff up in combat.


Which is why I run sorcs in rhinos most of the time.


> I run a deep striking melta army, a much better one than this goofy chaos list. Its called 'blood angels' I get my shit packed in so hard by imperial guard I poop diamonds for a month. See, the guard guy, if hes smart, has officer of the fleet, so you are -1 to reserve rolls. He will also castle with either a wall of cheap guardsmen or empty chimeras. So you drop in, cant get into melta range, and then get shot off the board. This is fnp jumping melta marines with reroll deepstrikes and 1d6 scatter. You are much less resilient and much much less reliable. So its a horrible loss. That army, if it gets lucky, nets 3 kps off a good guard list.


Blood angels are a different kind of deepstrike army. Chaos is dropping a lot more heavy weapons with obliterators, and the princes or greater demon, plus all the chain fists are going to do a lot of damage outside of shooting. FNP isn't going to help much against vendettas and battle cannons, but the terminators and obliterators can shrug a lot of that off.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Kevlar said:


> Why would you put them in reserve against an army that only has 24" guns? In that case you would start them on the table. Still plenty of long range fire power.


You suggested a reserve based alpha strike army, not me. Psyflemen and psybacks have more than 24" range. Let's face it. Unless you are an unbelievably good player, you will not be coming top 3 at too many tournaments with Chaos. I just hope thee new book gives us some love, i will be collecting it 2 days before release day anyway, whenever that is. As it stands, we need to stick with what works. Plague Marines, Princes/sorcerers and oblits.


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Kevlar said:


> Blood angels are a different kind of deepstrike army. Chaos is dropping a lot more heavy weapons with obliterators, and the princes or greater demon, plus all the chain fists are going to do a lot of damage outside of shooting. FNP isn't going to help much against vendettas and battle cannons, but the terminators and obliterators can shrug a lot of that off.


The chainfists wont do anything, because termicides will never see close ombat. Princes have meh shooting abilities, and also die to shooting quickly. Obliterators arent shrugging off 9 vendettas worth of lascannon and heavy bolter shots, they will be vaporized. If you have an officer, this game because 'castle and eliminate the enemy by grid'. FNP helps a lot against lasguns, multi lasers, heavy bolters, and the myriad anti infantry weapons guard armies bring that put out lots of shots. You dont have access to that. Heres a sample 2k list

CCS with 4 plasma guns, officer of the fleet
chimera

6 ratlings

3x melta vets in chimeras

2x plasma vets in chimeras

3 vendettas

2 hydras

2 manticores. 

Alpha strike that with deep striking chaos.


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