# My first post... a Dark Angels question



## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Hello. Painted the models and read White Dwarf over 20 years ago and just rediscovered warhammer via random novels at the bookstore last year. Since then, I've read over 30 novels and love them.

Currently reading Sons of Fenris, and encountered the Dark Angels. I know very little about them so I looked them up at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000

What I don't get is the Fallen. Their betrayal happened 10,000 years ago. They are still alive without chapter or legion assistance? Then I read about a confession from a Fallen Angel named Astelan, who is claimed to have been a chapter master at the time of the betrayal which got me wondering. Didn't the legions get split into chapters after the heresy? 

Lastly, I suppose I could read more in the book Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe. The problem there is that I have read Thorpe before and it was one of the worst books I have ever read. Anyone care to vouch for it? Thanks guys!


----------



## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

There were chapters and chapter master in some legions before heresy, they just commanded part of the force, they were not supreme commander. So it's not same tittle as today chapter masters.
Haven't read Angels of darkness, but I have read Descent of angels and Fallen Angels. Although most people find that they are weaker part of Horus heresy series, they are enjoyable. First one was really interesting to me, because it describes Caliban before Imperium came to it. So i recommend you to read them.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

You disliked it? Shit. Well I personally loved the book. I think people who hate the thing are just a bunch of Imperial ass kissers and Dark Angel Trolls. 

The book was good at looking at the perspective of a traitor without that cliche chaos look towards the character. Usually you think Chaos, you probably think of "anything for the dark lords!" type guys from the Dawn of War game.


----------



## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> You disliked it? Shit. Well I personally loved the book. I think people who hate the thing are just a bunch of Imperial ass kissers and Dark Angel Trolls.
> 
> The book was good at looking at the perspective of a traitor without that cliche chaos look towards the character. Usually you think Chaos, you probably think of "anything for the dark lords!" type guys from the Dawn of War game.


Malekith. That was the book I hated. It had nothing to do with the Imperium.


----------



## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

ooohhhh. it seemed as you read it and didn't like it. Well I would say its definitely a good read. Especially since new Dark Angels fluff is coming out. I'd read it before Age of Darkness/


----------



## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> ooohhhh. it seemed as you read it and didn't like it. Well I would say its definitely a good read. Especially since new Dark Angels fluff is coming out. I'd read it before Age of Darkness/



I'll pick it up then. I like getting the full perspective of the warhammer universe. I really liked those S.O.B. Iron Warriors courtesy of Graham MnNeill. It's a big world they greated for warhammer 40k. I can never seem to get enough 

I was just far from impressed with Thorpe in that one book. The new stuff gets pretty good ratings, I was just skeptical.


----------



## Shogun_Nate (Aug 2, 2008)

The Fallen have survived for thousands of years because, like a lot of traitor marines, the Chaos Gods protected them. If I remember correctly, when Caliban was sundered many of them were pulled into the warp and spread across the galaxy and time. They exist either solitary or in small groups. According to the old fluff, they know that want they did on Caliban was wrong and have a hatred for Chaos. They spend their days wandering the galaxy as mercenaries or pirates. As for their ranks, Legions were much larger than chapters. Titles like Chapter Master and Captain are used to denote the troops under their command. The Dark Angels had three or four second founding chapters after the Heresy meaning they had four to five thousand (or more as I can't remember how many there were LOL) marines. For each thousand marines (give or take) there was a chapter master and under the chapter master were the captains who commanded around one hundred marines. Or, that's how I understand it at least.

As for the Thorpe Dark Angel novels, I found Descent of Angels to be a decent read. While not as good as others in the Heresy series, it was still alright. I haven't had a chance to read the follow up book though.

Good luck and good gaming,

Nate


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yh, and basically the Fallen are just freelance chaos DAs, who the loyal DAs want to kill or capture at all costs so:
a) they can redeem their sins and the Lion will return to them
b) nobody outside the Unforgiven Inner Circle will find out about the Fall
essentially just read the bit in the DA codex on the Fall at your FLGS


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shogun_Nate said:


> As for the Thorpe Dark Angel novels, I found Descent of Angels to be a decent read. While not as good as others in the Heresy series, it was still alright. I haven't had a chance to read the follow up book though.
> 
> Good luck and good gaming,
> 
> Nate


For the record, _Descent_ was written by Mitchel Scanlon, not Thorpe.


----------



## Shogun_Nate (Aug 2, 2008)

LOL! I'm a daft bastid! :biggrin: Well-spotted! For the life of me I thought it was Thorpe (don't know why lol) but you are correct. Oh well! I'd best start paying more attention to authors lest I step on toes LOL!

Good luck and good gaming,

Nate


----------



## Company Master (Mar 25, 2011)

I have read angels of darkness and thought it was very interesting.I should not really say this but i kind of liked astelan a little bit!! Im kind of new to 40k so im reading whatever dark angels material i can find. Currently reading purging of kadillus between my painting and its nice to see boreas in it.. I have also read descent of angels and loved it!! I especially liked reading about the beast quests that they liked to declare on caliban!! Next book I will read after purging of kadillus will be legion.


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

The Fallen are currently broken up into 2 factions:

1) Typical "Chaos Fallen Traitor Legion" styled ones
2) "We're still loyal, you fekkers are the ones who's screwed up! We're following what the Emperor wanted us to be doing!"

After reading Angels of Darkness, it helps show those 2 sides out there and that there are "Fallen" Dark Angels who truly believe they're doing the right thing and honestly makes you think who has really fallen: Them, or the rest of the Astartes.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

cheeto said:


> What I don't get is the Fallen. Their betrayal happened 10,000 years ago. They are still alive without chapter or legion assistance?


When Caliban was destroyed (which is a story in and of itself), Chaos reached out and scattered the Fallen throughout space and time. Some Fallen are, as a consequence, thousands of years old. Others, like Astellan, arrived in late 40K (a few decades prior to the current timeline).



> Then I read about a confession from a Fallen Angel named Astelan, who is claimed to have been a chapter master at the time of the betrayal which got me wondering. Didn't the legions get split into chapters after the heresy?


Each Legion was sub-divided into smaller echelon units for the purpose of tactical flexibility/organization (much like a US Army Division is comprised of Brigades, which are made up of Battalions, etc.). Different Legions had different names for these sub-units. The Iron Warriors had Grand Companies, the Thousand Sons had Fellowships, the Dark Angels had Chapters, etc.

In this case, Astellan was a Chapter Commander--and thus in charge of a mere thousands warriors out of the Legion's tens of thousands of Astartes.



> Lastly, I suppose I could read more in the book Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe. The problem there is that I have read Thorpe before and it was one of the worst books I have ever read. Anyone care to vouch for it? Thanks guys!


Angels of Darkness is good, but it's a tricky book in the sense that it doesn't give you answers. What do I mean by that? You can't assume that everyone is telling the truth. You have to make up your own mind. Is Astellan being honest during his interrogation, for instance?

It's not an action novel, and a lot of folks didn't like what Astellan had to say. Between those two barbs, it didn't exactly gain a lot of popularity (though it did earn a lot of notoriety!). Personally, I enjoyed it--and I think Astellan's lying through his teeth. 



Diatribe1974 said:


> The Fallen are currently broken up into 2 factions:
> 
> 1) Typical "Chaos Fallen Traitor Legion" styled ones
> 2) "We're still loyal, you fekkers are the ones who's screwed up! We're following what the Emperor wanted us to be doing!"


Actually, that's not true.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines and the literature surrounding the Dark Angels and the Fallen are consistent on this matter. The Fallen tend to be:

1. True Chaos Space Marines who have fallen to Chaos. Their argument falls along the lines of "the Lion dishonored us by leaving us on Caliban, and thus we feel justified in turning against him and the Imperium." Examples of this can be found in the "Black Pearl" and "Unforgiven".
2. "Masterless men" who have repented what they did and wander the Galaxy as pirates, mercenaries, or "self-exiled" loners. No real examples are given, but this type is specified in the CSM Codex.

Finally, the older material also featured Cypher, notorious among the Dark Angels, leading squads of Fallen whose stats conformed to those of proper Space Marines. Their agenda was unknown, however.

Astellan, in fact, was a solitary exception: an individual who believed that he had been justified in his actions because he believed that the Lion had betrayed the Emperor and the Imperium. It's important to remember, however, that Astellan was subjected to the vagaries of Chaos before being spat out to the material universe--ten thousand years after being sucked into the Warp. If you read "Angels of Darkness", he never presents any proof for his assertions--and every time one of them is questioned or disproved, he moves to his next (unproven) point.

Opinions will, of course, vary, but I honestly believe that Astellan's arguments are the ones that Chaos perverted him with. He's repeating to Boreas the same stuff that he fell for. Otherwise, his arguments would indicate an individual suffering from serious insanity--his recollections in no way reconcile with the events of "Fallen Angels", where...



... Astellan stands by Luther's side (literally and metaphorically) when the latter proclaims rebellion against the Emperor and the Lion.




> After reading Angels of Darkness, it helps show those 2 sides out there and that there are "Fallen" Dark Angels who truly believe they're doing the right thing and honestly makes you think who has really fallen: Them, or the rest of the Astartes.


Well, actually, that's just Astellan. And, as posited above, it's pretty hard to take his side given that (A) he doesn't exactly offer up an proof and (B) his memories are just plain wrong. :grin:

Cheers,
P.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Ive had my confuzzlement about Chapters during the GC and HH as well, but as far as I know, Blood Angels had Chapter Masters (Horus Rising), Fulgrim had Chapter Masters (Galaxy in flames and Fulgrim I think they are mentioned briefly), Descent of Angels shows DA had them and then we have the Word Bearers who also had them (The First Heretic).

TS probably did not have them since they were such a small Legion, Raven Guard unknown but not impossible, UM probably had them. IF not mentioned and SW probably did not have them.  Salamanders and Death Guard I think were too small as well. Thats all I know.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*Dark Angels* - Chapters ... 1,000 Astartes?
_Unknown Legion_
*Emperor's Children* - Companies ... unknown size
*Iron Warriors* - Grand Companies ... unknown size
*White Scars* - unknown
*Space Wolves* - Great Companies ... unknown size
*Imperial Fists* - unknown
*Night Lords* - Companies ... unknown size, but: 10th Company is only unit listed for the "Covenant of the Blood", a Strike Cruiser stated as being capable of holding 300 Astartes...
*Blood Angels* - Chapters ... 1,000 Astartes?
*Iron Hands* - unknown, but: Morlocks (Veterans) were arranged in Companies
_Unknown Legion_
*World Eaters* - Companies ... unknown size
*Ultramarines* - Chapters ... 1,000 Astartes
*Death Guard* - Companies ... unknown size, though if there are only seven they are of unusually large size
*Thousand Sons* - Fellowships ... ostensibly 1,000 Astartes each
*Luna Wolves* - Companies ... unknown size
*Word Bearers* - Chapters ... 1,000 Astartes?
*Salamanders* - Unknown
*Raven Guard* - Can't remember
*Alpha Legion* - Companies ... unknown size


----------



## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> When Caliban was destroyed (which is a story in and of itself), Chaos reached out and scattered the Fallen throughout space and time. Some Fallen are, as a consequence, thousands of years old. Others, like Astellan, arrived in late 40K (a few decades prior to the current timeline).
> 
> 
> Each Legion was sub-divided into smaller echelon units for the purpose of tactical flexibility/organization (much like a US Army Division is comprised of Brigades, which are made up of Battalions, etc.). Different Legions had different names for these sub-units. The Iron Warriors had Grand Companies, the Thousand Sons had Fellowships, the Dark Angels had Chapters, etc.
> ...


Well! That settles that! :laugh:

Thanks for clearing all that up guys. It's kinda funny that I may have read as many as 30 books and still didn't know that lol


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> When Caliban was destroyed (which is a story in and of itself), Chaos reached out and scattered the Fallen throughout space and time. Some Fallen are, as a consequence, thousands of years old. Others, like Astellan, arrived in late 40K (a few decades prior to the current timeline).
> 
> 
> Each Legion was sub-divided into smaller echelon units for the purpose of tactical flexibility/organization (much like a US Army Division is comprised of Brigades, which are made up of Battalions, etc.). Different Legions had different names for these sub-units. The Iron Warriors had Grand Companies, the Thousand Sons had Fellowships, the Dark Angels had Chapters, etc.
> ...


I'm not sure Astellen was an isolated incident, as you describe him. Nor does he come across as someone who was "messed with" by the Warp after being stuck in it for 9,000 years after Caliban cracked. Honestly, I like his view of things & wish there was more vagueness involved with it (concerning the Dark Angels vs. the Fallen) so there'd be more of a "Who's Right & Who's full of sh*t?" discussions. The one part of what Astellen said that really made me like his character (thanks to Gav Thorpe's excellent writing), was when he broke down the Emperors Crusade not as something of a time of events, but a mentality of the players involved (re: The Crusade is always going on, regardless of if it's M31 or M41 or whatever).


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I call him an isolated case because, honestly, I haven't seen a single other story where the Fallen pull out the "I did what I did because the LION was the traitor!" card.

I posit that he might have been messed with by Chaos because he seems convinced of what he's saying. Given that the Horus Heresy novels prove his stories to be false, there's only two potential answers: (A) he's lying; (B) he's sincere, but clearly has false memories. The latter would indicate that he's either some flavor of insane, or tampered with by Chaos in some way. 

I did like Astellan's view on the Great Crusade, though. Personally, I think he was a good guy that lost his way, sided with Luther, and then kind of freaked out when he got scooped up by Chaos through space and time. He might have had a "Shutter Island" moment and imagined up whatever memories enabled him to stay relatively sane without having to confront his deeds. Who knows?

One thing's for sure, though. Astellan didn't do what he did because he thought the Lion might have been waiting to see who won, or because he might have sided with Horus. See "Fallen Angels" for his and Luther's motivations.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I call him an isolated case because, honestly, I haven't seen a single other story where the Fallen pull out the "I did what I did because the LION was the traitor!" card.
> 
> I posit that he might have been messed with by Chaos because he seems convinced of what he's saying. Given that the Horus Heresy novels prove his stories to be false, there's only two potential answers: (A) he's lying; (B) he's sincere, but clearly has false memories. The latter would indicate that he's either some flavor of insane, or tampered with by Chaos in some way.
> 
> ...


I agree completely. If you want to see another Fallen Angel, you should read the BloodQuest graphic novel. That guy there is a champion of Chaos too !


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Of Tzeentch, at that, and mutation-free. Weird! :biggrin:


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I call him an isolated case because, honestly, I haven't seen a single other story where the Fallen pull out the "I did what I did because the LION was the traitor!" card.
> 
> I posit that he might have been messed with by Chaos because he seems convinced of what he's saying. Given that the Horus Heresy novels prove his stories to be false, there's only two potential answers: (A) he's lying; (B) he's sincere, but clearly has false memories. The latter would indicate that he's either some flavor of insane, or tampered with by Chaos in some way.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm sure that some of the events that we read about in the Angels of Darkness book has been retconned somewhat since then in the HH line of books (seriously, I fekking hate that one bit of a change to be honest). Regardless, it doesn't change my view of a missed opportunity by GW to create a "Hmmm....who's right & who's wrong here? You decide!" styled situation with perceived loyalist Fallen Angels vs. Dark Angels vs. Other Fallen Angels. <---- Could've been some great stories derived from this setup, eh?


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> *Dark Angels* - Chapters ... 1,000 Astartes?
> _Unknown Legion_
> *Emperor's Children* - Companies ... unknown size
> *Iron Warriors* - Grand Companies ... unknown size
> ...


I think it was a Index Astartes which stated the Emperors Children had roughly 30 companies during the GC, but Im not sure how many Astartes in each.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Based on their smaller Legion size, then, I would them to be either Chapter-sized (so 30,000 Astartes) or approximately Chapter-sized (20-30,000 Astartes total).


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

The Last Chancers was quite atrocious, I thought, but his work in Angels of Darkness was simply amazing.

A must read, in my opinion, if you want to understand the psyche of the Dark Angels.

A very crunchy book, unapologetically BRUTAL but not exploitatively, and the psycho-drama is very intense.

After reading the story I had vertigo lol.



cheeto said:


> Hello. Painted the models and read White Dwarf over 20 years ago and just rediscovered warhammer via random novels at the bookstore last year. Since then, I've read over 30 novels and love them.
> 
> Currently reading Sons of Fenris, and encountered the Dark Angels. I know very little about them so I looked them up at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000
> 
> ...


----------

