# Change in Games Workshop Gaming and Painting policy for United kingdom stores?



## Tolethmemnos (Aug 9, 2010)

Evening all, Just wish to bring you all a little information from something that could be developing into a wider issue across the Uk GW stores. At our local store which shall not be named due to the ongoing issue with the store in question, The managment there has 'Enforced' a No open painting table and No open gaming table policy. Where you will have to 'book' a 30 minute to one hour painting session in order to come down into store to paint your models. Secondly, In order to utilise a gaming table a 2 week booking notice period has to be given, And is overuled should the management wish to utilse the table for an event they could create at the last minute should they want.

Curious as it is if anyone else in the United kingdom at any of the local games workshops lately have been noticing anything along the lines of this? As it was to my own knowledge and the knowledge of the group of Veteran gamers who utilse the store for painting, Product purchase and gaming manners that this policy seems almost aimed at getting rid of veteran or experienced hobby players, Depriving them of an area to utilse their hard earned hobby materials and products purchased from the company.

I will most certainly keep all informed from what I can find out from GW head office, Although their customer services seemed very shifty on the subject material when myself presented it to them. Just to note this isn't just scaremongering as I do have available a facebook message detailing the intentions of this manager to impliment this (Which they have done so far at a rapid pace). 

But to sum this up, If anyone else has experienced issues like this as of late, Please let myself know and should we go right into the method of going to head office with a displeased group of folk and letters of complaint.

Yours faithfully - Toleth.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

This happened in a few stores several years ago......it failed completely, the stores were always empty, and it took a long time to get customers back and the stores were hit hard.

In some stores its not quite as extreme, but I do know some who simply do not allow games instore, and do "hurry" painters along.

But hey, its why FLGS, clubs and houses exist.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its been an issue that crops up from time to time... some managers just seem to be intent on driving out veterans at any cost.

At my GW, about 5 years ago, there used to be a huge group of veterans who, amounst other things, had a weekly inquisitor game going on in the basement gaming room... this was about the time head office started getting anti-specialist games and the then-manager decided to use it as an excuse to shut down the sessions.... but he did it in such an arsy way that none of those 15-20 people will set foot in this GW or any other GW ever again.
While vets don't spend as much money as beginners chasing away 15 vets, all of whom are going to spend a few hundred pounds a year seems pretty damn silly. Especially since they went from being a pro-GW block of the community to being about as anti as its possible to be... even now I'll hear of them warning people off GW.... and seeing that this crap is still going on I can hardly blame them (first we lost all access to the 7 downstairs gaming tables, meaning we only have the 2-3 upstairs to use, and now games night has been discontinued).

I only go into GW to see friends now, if I want a game then there is a club on a sunday that I've started going to occasionally (when I have time and energy free).


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i guess if it happens you'll have to find someone with a basement and start ordering all your stuff online. get everyone to do it and the store will quickly change their tune.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Just as an aside to vets not spending as much as new, trust ne vets will spend FAAAAAAR more than new players, GW's problem is that they only sell 1 product, there own.
They limit painting and playing space because they are not game or hobby stores

You offer gamers space to play and products to buy and they spend craploads, veteran or new, my wallet knows this to be true, and so does my FLGS.

GW's failing, is that they should never of had stores, but certainly sell there product via independents


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Let the stores have their screaming children. This is why basements were invented.

Yes, it is.

At any rate, the store where you buy the models is usually the best place to play. You get exposure, everyone comes in there so theres no shortage of players at any one time, you don't have to hunt for a club or something, its all right there. Unfortunately, for some reason, some don't like veterans. Don't know why.


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## Battle Ready Studios (Dec 1, 2011)

Vote with your dollar.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Perhaps I'm fortunate to be on good terms with nearly all the staff at my local GW, even socialising with some...This strikes me as a foolish move overall, it'll fail in the mid to long term.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well I buy my stuff online already, so thats not all that effective...


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Battle Ready Studios said:


> Vote with your dollar.


That's with I'm doing... By selling my GW stuff on eBay. Re-investing massively in FFG boardgames and PS3 games. My whole group is tired of GW's shenanigans and we're keeping an army each. Unless 6th ed. is tremendously cool, we'll probably move out completely. Kinda sad since we're still hooked on BL's Horus Heresy novels (and the FFG boardgame). 

I plan on buying a FW model once in a while to paint it... Then off to eBay it'll go!

Phil


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

Fortunately my game store, which shall also not be named, is very friendly, but I only go every sunday for warlords, but I see people coming in randomly & painting, so either I'm one of the lucky ones or this sort of thing you have detailed is a rare occurrence.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I've never come across anything like this in any GW store I've visited in the North West, and I've been to pretty much all of them. All of them up here are happy to let you game at any time, unless it is an event day where they need the table, but they always announce those a week in advance so theres no problem there. And as for painting, they love old hands comming in and painting as it gives the newbie painters someone to ask about paint techniques other then the manager.

Sounds like the store in question has got a 'little Hitler' of a manager that needs complaining about to GW's head office. As mentioned in other post, that kind of atmosphere drives away customer, and GW don't want that.


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## Helicon One (Mar 9, 2012)

Tolethmemnos said:


> In order to utilise a gaming table a 2 week booking notice period has to be given


Interestingly my local store had this policy until recently when the former manager who implemented it was removed and replaced, so you probably shouldn't take it as an indication of a new general policy across the company.


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## alex567 (Feb 15, 2011)

My local store has gone through about 8 or more new managers (one man store) across the last 3 years, and the vast majority of them have tried to enforce this policy, now we tend to lollygag, while the staff memmbers are busy and have managed to get away with it, fortunately our most recent staff member has the policy, you must be painting or gaming to be in the store, which to be honest I'd rather have then the whole booking in advance scheme, veterans night's are fine gaming hasto be about 2 hours per game to alow for others to game, but we have about 4-6 painting stations available for painting and the staff member doesnt mind about us standing around on veterans night, but we also havea dediciated events day every week where the large majority of the day is for a big event, which I tendto participate in (and help run occasionaly), I like my local store at the moment, but kno it will not last, as stated above we have had a large quantity of staff members pass through our shop, most due to being part time replacements but some have stated that they will be permenant (about 5 years) only to move on 6 months later, but hey being dedicatde to tzeench isnt so bad for a store I guess?


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

never happened at mine-before we just had this policy where if ppl were not playing, gaming or buying they wanted us out-didn't work well either. Got lot of ppl pissed, Me being the biggest person with issues


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Should the staff be asked to leave?, they don't game or paint, and the last one I was in the manager was chatting to some bloke about putting an exhaust on his car..........which confused me Cus I thought cars came with one as standard.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

My GW is also a one-man store but he has recently started getting really peeved off with some of the kids that go there, so he implements a strict 'no-painting, no-assembling then no-sitting on the chairs rule'. Also no hanging about unless you are waiting for a gaming table or painting table. But this is only strict towards the teenagers and some of us are giving a little bit more free reign.. which is slightly unfair towards them but I understand why they do it


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Vanchet said:


> never happened at mine-before we just had this policy where if ppl were not playing, gaming or buying they wanted us out-didn't work well either. Got lot of ppl pissed, Me being the biggest person with issues


Yeah, hobby or home is a fecking stupid idea.
It vaguely works for people who paint in GW, but it crap for playing games. It means you can't organise games in store or wait for tables to be free... didn't take too many hour long round trips into my local GW before I started to get seriously annoyed... I know 3-4 people locally who won't go back into GW because of "hobby or home" related bollocks.

Oddly I know a hell of a lot of people who won't go into GW again due to some GW/manager policy or other... a couple of managers, many cover staff and 3 different area managers (including a real cock) have meant many different policies, with many having a detrimental effect on the store and its regulars.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Helicon One said:


> Interestingly my local store had this policy until recently when the former manager who implemented it was removed and replaced, so you probably shouldn't take it as an indication of a new general policy across the company.


Yep, there was a certain manager a an essex store that did this, and yes....he is gone from the company!


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

There used to be a GW store around here and I went in it a couple times (possibly), cause it was cool to look at all the stuff and get some ideas for scenery but my FLGS is where I would spend my money and play my matches. It's a much friendlier atmosphere and I don't have to worry about screaming kids. I think they're honestly trying to move away from their own stores as they've got plenty of programs to encourage independent retailers to carry their products.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Give us the name of the store in question and we can call the manager and ask if its his policy or company policy,otherwise i dont see any reason for people to be concerned.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> Should the staff be asked to leave?, they don't game or paint, and the last one I was in the manager was chatting to some bloke about putting an exhaust on his car..........which confused me Cus I thought cars came with one as standard.


I think you know the answer to this, i must say, stupid question.


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## Tolethmemnos (Aug 9, 2010)

If your going to call them go right ahead, Oxford branch of Games workshop.

Just as far as I and a great many other people have been aware, Its that Games workshop Hobby centers operate a open gaming and painting policy advertised on their website and in White dwarf. Unless a great many people have been mistaken..?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Just contact head office, tell them that this new "policy" has driven you and everyone you know away from that branch, and mention that you will not be back until it changes, and you will meanwhile be spending your money on other systems/games, and doing your best to get your friends to do so too. That should provoke some kind of response pretty quickly, especially if you can persuade some of your friends to write similar emails.

Ultimately, it's a very self-defeating policy. We used to have an arse of a manager who wouldn't allow you to talk about anything non-GW related in store e.g. D&D, WoW, Sci-Fi books/films etc. On the basis that they were "competing systems". Uh-huh. I was with a friend the first time we saw him enforce it, and we both walked out in disgust, when he was about to buy three Land Raiders for his new army. We didn't go back for months. GW probably lost about £400 just from the pair of us.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

This doesn't strike me as a "new" thing. A couple years back I used to go to my local GW, 3, 4 times a week and just sit in there, painting, chatting to the staff. Got quite friendly with all of them (except the manager) and started hanging around with them outside the store. I would almost always buy something while I was there too, sure sometimes just a few paints, but a lot of times it would be 20-100 pounds. 

Anyway, the manager then started clamping down, banned specialist games from being played in store, brought in a policy that you couldn't take a codex from the shelf to inspect before purchase (but the little kids that came in could. . . )
Ultimately, every. single. staff member left to go to other stores or jobs and a lot of us who went there regularly, stopped going. In the times I've been in there since, I've not seen any customers I recognise, which would be practically unheard of back then. 

I don't know whether it's still that bad now because I haven't spent more than five minutes in there before the new paints came out (sat in there silently for an hour testing them before catching a train)

That's why I prefer indie shops. Cheaper most of the time, more choice and you can use non GW models in games :grin:


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

It used to be that the gw stores really tried to foster a sense of community and were very helpful. Problem is that it's no longer in their policy to do so. It's all about the mighty $ or the red headed stepchild £.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> It's all about the mighty $ or the red headed stepchild £.


Hey, as the splinter nation, I think you'll find the $ is the redheaded stepchild of the two currencies.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Hey, as the splinter nation, I think you'll find the $ is the redheaded stepchild of the two currencies.


+1 :wink:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Tolethmemnos said:


> Evening all, Just wish to bring you all a little information from something that could be developing into a wider issue across the Uk GW stores. At our local store which shall not be named due to the ongoing issue with the store in question, The managment there has 'Enforced' a No open painting table and No open gaming table policy. Where you will have to 'book' a 30 minute to one hour painting session in order to come down into store to paint your models. Secondly, In order to utilise a gaming table a 2 week booking notice period has to be given, And is overuled should the management wish to utilse the table for an event they could create at the last minute should they want.
> .


 
This happened in my store, as well, in the US. I guess it is a company wide policy. I'm not sure how the no open gaming policy will work out. Open gaming is what brings in the veterans into the store. Otherwise, they buy their product from discount internet. Or, maybe they want to get rid of the veteran old guys, so they can attract the younger crowd. Do older men scare off kids? Or, maybe scare off parents of kids?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

imm0rtal reaper said:


> This doesn't strike me as a "new" thing. A couple years back I used to go to my local GW, 3, 4 times a week and just sit in there, painting, chatting to the staff. Got quite friendly with all of them (except the manager) and started hanging around with them outside the store. I would almost always buy something while I was there too, sure sometimes just a few paints, but a lot of times it would be 20-100 pounds.
> 
> :grin:


I wish there were independant stores near my house that I could go in and play 40K or talk to other fans. Sadly, there isn't. There's just the small GW store, that is an hour drive away, that apparently is trying to focus on new players and small children and drive away us old codger veterans.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

While it would annoy me if I was a regular at a store and got told I was no longer welcome to come and socialise I can see, in some situations, where it could be for the best.

My locals store is generally frequented by fat neckbeards wearing t-shirts three sizes too small and looking like they haven't been washed since they bought them. If anything is going to scare away new customers its them. 

"Come on in! Look, if you join our hobby in a few years time you too could be like this fat, vile smelling billy-no-mates!"


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

15 Years ago in my local store, it was only open-table on two nights a week. The rest of the time it was book in advance, or intro / store-run games. It's nothing new. The original post does seem a little extreme, but then: how many gaming tables and painting tables are there? Because when I was store staff, there always had to be 2 painting stools free for intro-lessons, and three gaming tables with intro games set up on them. Given the store had 4 tables and 4 stools, that cut down spontaneous gaming quite a bit. Set nights had the intro games cleared away and the stools all available.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

At my local store something similar was implemented by the manager, the painting tables were reserved for beginners unless you rang in advance to book the table, and the gaming tables also need to be booked in advanced, which has actually led to the same few gamers using the tables every so many days a week.

It seems more like this store because of the manager is geared more towards beginners then anything else, the manager himself is alittle arrogant and seems to show now real interest in what some people say about their hobby.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

I doubt even GW is this much off the chain. Sounds to me like a case of bad management. Anyways, I hope you store get's its act together soon.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

we should organize a boycott of GW goods and services.  it might be good to let GW know we can do without them, too.

Or we could at least boycott their hobby centres. There are always alternatives to those.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Hey, as the splinter nation, I think you'll find the $ is the redheaded stepchild of the two currencies.


Nope. We're actually germany's adopted child. It's where we got the hamburgers and frankfurters and christmas trees and whatnot.  I mean, our real parent was oppressive and abusive and constantly had those awful affairs with france. It was only during one such hot tryst that we were able to escape, after all 

If anything, the dollar is the rightfully-angsty teenage son.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

I don't go to them anyway since they are not nice places to be hobby wise, very unsocial gamers, rude and pushy staff and low hygiene, its not inviting and a very poor image and smell for new gamers

=^.^=


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Strangely enough, at my FLGS most of the gamers are married, mostly hygenic, and more than 21. Not the case at my local GWS.


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh for....

I do like how "OMG MY STORE IS DOING THIS" = Every store doing that.

I was at a Throne of Skulls event over the weekend. One of the guys i went to is a store manager. Now knowing how friendly he is with our group, he would of said if anything like that was happening.

Only thing we have in my local is a booking system for painting/assembling on Saturdays, purely because it gets a bit too frantic in there. Everything else is drop in and out, playing, painting, assembling.

Oh and really people? Boycott? Really? Lols.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Adramalech said:


> If anything, the dollar is the rightfully-angsty teenage son.


The rightfully-angsty *ginger-haired* teenage *step*son.

Fixed that for you.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

personally im really not sure what the issue actually is? most of the complaints in this thread seem to read "my local store expects us to be civil and use some manners by booking up or asking to do activity"

Every workshop that ive called home has had a very similar Policy, and i support it

if at my local gw's you walked in off the street and just sat at the table, starting to get out your models to paint the staff would say something along the lines of "im sorry fella, but you need to book in advance to do painting, so that everyone gets a fair chance at using the tables" 

If you came into the store with you case of models and went up to the staff and asked saying ive found myself with a couple of hours free, and wanted to do a bit of painting, then the staff would say something along the lines of "sure theres a table free at the moment, i'll just check when its booked up" then let that person know, that theres a booking system in place, so next time if you book up you'll know youve got a place.

ive seen these examples countless times and the only guys that seem put-out by it are people who expect to be able to bum about all day, and treat the store like there own front room. 

im usure how people justify "i didnt ask to look at the armie books and they asked me too put it back" as somehow being the staff being dicks?

The staff in the stores near me are really cool, have always got time to help you, and are always trying to be polite to people who arent showing them the same courtesy.

If people who have problems with this, dont come into the workshops i go into then awesome, i dont have to put up with the douchebags in my locals


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> It used to be that the gw stores really tried to foster a sense of community and were very helpful. Problem is that it's no longer in their policy to do so. It's all about the mighty $ or the red headed stepchild £.


I disagree. GW as a whole wants to make money sure, but when it comes to the sense of community and being helpful, that's up to the store managers themselves. If they want to be massive knobs and chase away their established customer base, that's their fault, not GW's as a whole.

Every time something like this happens people like to point the finger at the big company, who despite making the policies, doesn't control every aspect of their stores. That's why they have managers who in turn do things they believe will foster more cash in their tills. Some do this by promoting a friendly atmosphere and a sense of community. Others do this by being massive knobs who alienate their customer bases in an attempt to make large sales to new players only.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

jigplums said:


> personally im really not sure what the issue actually is? most of the complaints in this thread seem to read "my local store expects us to be civil and use some manners by booking up or asking to do activity"
> 
> Every workshop that ive called home has had a very similar Policy, and i support it
> 
> ...


You mean, people who forget that it's a business, and as such not actually there for their convenience? I've *_never_* encountered such people...:wink:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> You mean, people who forget that it's a business, and as such not actually there for their convenience? I've *_never_* encountered such people...:wink:


I think the point of the post was that people forget that some of these rules make sense when you consider other people. 

And having a job that deals with people on a daily basis that generally people as a whole are total knobs. Individuals can be great and you can have a group of people that are better than the average, but from my experience the average person is a bit of an inconsiderate moron who is more concerned with their short term happiness than anything else.

Then again I do live in America so it might be a cultural thing.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> I think the point of the post was that people forget that some of these rules make sense when you consider other people.
> 
> And having a job that deals with people on a daily basis that generally people as a whole are total knobs. Individuals can be great and you can have a group of people that are better than the average, but from my experience the average person is a bit of an inconsiderate moron who is more concerned with their short term happiness than anyone else.
> 
> Then again I do live in America so it might be a cultural thing.


I got it. 

And no, not unless it's a cultural thing to ALL native English-speakers...


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

ItsPug said:


> The rightfully-angsty *ginger-haired* teenage *step*son.
> 
> Fixed that for you.


Given the choice between hot trysts with france, or being a redheaded stepchild? I'll pick being a redheaded stepchild any day of the week. (also redheads and gingers are not remotely the same)

ON TOPIC: Back when it was still open, the GWS I went to was always pretty casual.

I can see the reasoning **for such policies, but at the same time I just... idk, I don't agree with them for some reason. Thinking about them makes my stomach churn.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Depends on how busy their tables are. If they're empty and have a "reserve only" policy, it's irritating. If they're always full, then it makes sense.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Personally i think booking a slot for a game makes perfect sense,the fact GW allow people to game in store is a miracle, the fact they offer a space to paint is also pretty bloody amazing, that space could very easily be turned over to free standing shelves and more product,which for someone like me who never games instore would be preferable. 

But that gaming space and painting space is in effect GWs marketing, thats the birthing pool and nursery of the hobby, Yes they do pander to younger gamers with parents with deep pockets. They have to encourage a new generation of players every year because every year "vets" leave the hobby (and people will have any number of reasons for doing so far too numerous to go into here). 

So organizing your available resources with bookings and such makes perfect sense, I think the problem people are having is that GW is changing its self to keep up with the "high street", shops are having to up there game and be much more professional because of competition from online stores, geography is no longer the ruling factor for a sale , neither is price, people are willing to travel further for better service or quality and people also have the choice to stay at home and let there goods come to them, that means shops on the high street need to offer a reason for oming through the door, that in GWs case will never be price, it will be happy helpful service and access to other players of similar ability/age and sensible, organized environment, i have never walked into my local GW stores and seen the chav rabble from the local council estate facing off in a 2000 point apocalypse game, the parents and children that GW have targeted are high working class/middle class with enough disposable income to keep Jonny occupied on a weekend while mum gets her bikkini line waxed and dad plays 18 holes.


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## Tolethmemnos (Aug 9, 2010)

In order to keep folk informed, The policies that this manager have put in place have been implied by the head office of Games workshop to not be company policy, And are awaiting the group of veteran gamers who often go the store (All 30 of us) to get in contact with them with a very detailed list of our grievances as such. So it is looking up somewhat,

Its good however to see that those who gave insight into their local stores policies backed up what we had thought - That Managers shouldn't be making policies that affect the actual playerbase of their store without higher authority. So many thanks all, And we will see how everything goes.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It's not the store manager that annoys me - we've had one who had his retard setting set to 11, but apart from that we've been quite lucky. No, the people that dissuade me from the FLGS are the other people. I should learn to stay out of arguments, but I can't help it sometimes and I get caught into an argument with a whole group of elitist ubergeeks who play Guard with Conscripts, Deathwing, and Footdar and will NOT admit that they are a bad army.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> It's not the store manager that annoys me - we've had one who had his retard setting set to 11, but apart from that we've been quite lucky. No, the people that dissuade me from the FLGS are the other people. I should learn to stay out of arguments, but I can't help it sometimes and I get caught into an argument with a whole group of elitist ubergeeks who play Guard with Conscripts, Deathwing, and Footdar and will NOT admit that they are a bad army.
> 
> Midnight


Personally I'll say I don't believe in "bad" or "good" armies. I see it this way: an army is a lot like a gun. If you're well versed in all it's ins and outs and know what you're doing you can do great things with it. Now some guns are more accurate or have longer ranges which does makes these sorts of things easier for sure, but if you're not skilled with it, or don't feel comfortable with it, it's not going to work for you and it won't perform as well as the gun you've practiced with and grown accustomed to. The same goes for an army. If you know the ins and outs of your army, and are comfortable with how to play it then you have the same potential of winning as the guy who jumps armies looking for the easiest way to win.

The problem that you can easilly run into in this case is when the skilled player comes along with one of these higher caliber armies, as like facing a skilled marksman with a more accurate rifle, you'll have to work hard to win, and will be punished harder for your mistakes. Does it make you less capable of winning? Only marginally, as even a simple army can have devastating effects in the right hands.

Just to finish up on my poor analogy here's an article about a Finish sniper who fought in the Winter War against Russia. Using just a rifle (a rather short varient of the Mosin Nagant) with just the iron sights and his skills he racked up 505 confirmed kills against the Russian Army. To me it's proof that a skilled man with a weapon he's comfortable with (he chose the rifle because it fit his small size) can do great things despite the odds. And less lethally so can a wargamer.

Simo Hayha


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

In the nicest possible way...bullshit.

Read THESE lists, and tell me there's no such thing as a 'bad list'...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> In the nicest possible way...bullshit.
> 
> Read THESE lists, and tell me there's no such thing as a 'bad list'...


While I was talking about armies that the internet says suck, fluffy armies that the internet says suck and generally speaking sure. Now without digging through my codex collection to decipher these (as I honestly don't have every single rule and model memorized, sorry) I can see what you're driving at. From what I'm gleaning from a quick scan through is very specialized lists that aren't balanced in the way you're standard competitive list is.

Now I can't say these are bad, just limited. It's like saying a flamethrower is bad because all it does is throw fire. Will they be able to compete against balanced lists or things they didn't prepare for? Not a chance. But given a situation the player designed (or played in the hands of someone who knows why the army works this way and how to make it effective) for they'll do fine. Just because you don't agree with how or why the army was built that way doesn't make it "bad", just different from your preferences.

Then again I play a "bad" army at a point level that it doesn't work on and regularly win against Marines (but ties against Venomspam Dark Eldar). So you can probably safely write my opinions off as the statements by someone who has been tainted by strange ideas and is likely just rebelling against the idea that you need to play certain things and do certain things to win. 

Maybe what I'm just trying to say with my long posts and strange analogies is to not count people out, even if they play armies that are less than stellar looking on paper.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Okay, there are no balanced lists that are bad - no-one would argue with that, right?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Okay, there are no balanced lists that are bad - no-one would argue with that, right?


That's most reasonable thing I've seen online in a while when it comes to how good/bad lists are. Sadly someone is bound to try and argue it, but I agree. Balanced lists are only limited by the dice (aka chance) and the players (aka skill).


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