# High elf cavalry army?



## endgamecutter

I've been thinking of starting a high elf army recently, and i decided a cavalry army would work best to start (since i like to be able to trample things...even if its just in my mind). First off, i'm not planning on switching to brets, because i like what I've read about elven magic, and i like having a dragon saying [email protected]#$ you to enemies. so i have 3 questions related to this: is an all cavalry army with elves possible? is an all cavalry army with elves viable? and how expensive would it be moneywise in Canada? (the prime unit would probably be silver helms)


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## Vaz

For your first question, no All Cavalry Elves are not possible. There are no Core Cavalry Elves.

If you're starting Warhammer, I am going to say stay away from All Cavalry armies. They are one trick ponies, and with the exception of 3 Units, it's not the Charge that's the most important thing - and nowadays, resisting the charge is far more important. Large Infantry Blocks, +5 Static Combat Resolution, 2+ Armour Saves, counter charging units, are all prevalent.

This is not 40K, where getting in the fastest, getting in the hardest, and stopping all attacks back is important. It is getting in, and _beating_, not killing the enemy that's important. It helps, but if you can break the enemy, then it's far easier. Cavalry aren't the breakers any more that they were in 6th Edition, and to win with them, you will need every trick of the trade, to outfight an enemy who outnumbers, outranks, outshoots, and will outmaneuvre you. Seems strange, but in the end, you're going to have to commit to a charge, unless you're Wood Elves, and all Cavalry Wood Elves win very, very rarely. This means that when your one 20point/model Cavalry hits the enemy line, they have a unit that costs 4-5pts, all in contact with your unit. That means that a quick idea, is they outnumber you 4:1. Not good odds, even for the Super heavies (Marked Chaos Knights, and Blood Knights). That's outmaneuvring. If you can maneuvre that you only have one target, and they can't support charge in their following turn, then that's you out maneuvring. But just having a faster move, and setting up a combined double charge on a unit isn't.

If you like Magic, the Chaos are *the* way to go for Cavalry.

Firstly, you have probably THE Best light cavalry unit in the Entire Game, and they can have a Mark - either increasing their attacks, reducing the ability to hit your units, stopping them from being scared, or even giving them a ward save.

Then you have probably the potential to be the best horsemen in the game - Chaos Knights. 2 Attacks each, WS5, Str 5, Magical Attacks... and can have Marks - with a Mark of Nurgle, to reduce enemies to hit, it even effects WS3 Infantry - they hit on 5's now, instead of 4's. Knights cause Fear as well.

Then there are Dragon Ogres. Str 7, 4 wounds, toughness 5... What more can you want? Although expensive, I've fielded 4 units in a 2000pt army - 12 of them can just rip through enemies. Oh, and they cause fear. they aren't cavalry per se, but have the same speed as them.

Then you have Cavalry Heroes. Archaon. Oh god I love this guy. 10 Str 5 Attacks, Ignores Armour. And gives ItP to a Knight unit he joins. He is tough as hell as well - 1+ Armour, can't be wounded on better than a 3+, and has a 3+ War Save.

Expensive, but worth it - he has an 18" command range as well. Then there's Kholek. Not strictly a Cavalry unit, but has the same Pace as one. He has a bloody big hammer, that does D3 wounds, making him perfect for going against enemy characters and monsters. And the fact that the only thing that can make a dent in him is a Cannonball... Very nice. He has a 2+ Save, T8, Str8, and a bucket of attacks, Terror Causes, and can bring a Lightning Strike down on an enemy, or on himself, and give him Frenzy.

Shaggoths are the same as Kholek, but at a lesser ability (but not by much).

Lords themselves have either Daemonic Steeds, Chaos Steeds, Steeds of Slaanesh (boobsnakes), or Juggernauts. All have their pro's, but either way, getting a Combat killy Lord (only Vampires have the potential to be better, and they need extra equipment and Powers, and Magic to make them better than Lords) in combat quicker is a bonus.

All Cavalry, is generally a no-no, unless you go for an All Cavalry Chaos, at least to start.

It also helps that other than the Heroes, Dragon Ogres, and monstrous creatures, an all cavalry army is quite cheap as well, due to being plastic.


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## Blackhiker

As said before an all cavalry army for high elves is not possible, but What I suggest for you if you like the magic and the cavalry is to have a dragon mage as your general a few small units of archers to satisfy your core requirements and provide a bit of cover to your cavalry. 

And then I would suggest at least units of 8 and if possible 11. this way since they count as units strength 2 you can have 16-22 unit strength for the unit. Also to have any good chance to win make sure the cavalry always have a banner and if possible get a hero with a banner that adds combat resolution. 

As for what the cavalry should be I suggest one or 2 units of silver helms and a unit of dragon princes and a unit of reavers. The princes are better for the heavy hitting, but the reavers are good for flanking.

And of course make sure you have either some eagles or bolt throwers to take out enemy ranged units quickly. the eagles are good for attacking artillery crews while the bolt thrower is all around a good unit.

Furthermore when you do get started make sure that when you attack that you get the charge and theat you are able to win in the first round of combat, otherwise the squishy elves will die fairly quick.


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## Snorri O'dubhda

Hey, not entirely sure but I'm afraid to say that I dont think that this is possible anymore. under the fairly recently released high elf rules there are not any cavalry units in the core section anymore and as a minimum number of core choices are needed then an all cavalry army would not be possible. sorry.


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## endgamecutter

do reavers come in box sets? and also, are there non-metal princes? (i can never get metal models together, as my bloodthirster from a few years back taught me)


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## Vaz

No you can't get Plastic Dragon Princes. The models themselves are metal, but other than attaching a shield to the prince, a Metal Head to the horse, and the Rider to the horse, it's not too hard.

And no, Reavers don't come in Box Sets, or Plastic Either. The models themselves are actually quite old, and DEFINATELY need an update (but Dragon Princes are delicious).

I'd suggest getting a box of Glade Riders, and using parts from the High Elf Range to give them the appearance of High elves.

Dragon and All Cavalry does not go well together, Blackhiker. You don't have enough points to take more than a single hammer unit and support, if you want anywhere near a chance of a win against a competent player.


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## endgamecutter

then what DO dragons go well with...and any tips on that conversion, I've never converted anything.


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## MaidenManiac

I would actually say that a Stardragon Lord, BSB and Caddy is playable. 
Add 20 archers for core, 2 units of Dragon Princes, some fast cav, 2 charriots 2 RBTs and 2 eagles and you should have a fairly useable army. Its gonna be tough against certain opponents but it can work:read:

Its when the "I want magic and all cav and Dragons and whatnot" combines it goes to hell. It is hard to get much out of magic if you want a Cav army but it can be done. You just need to test out. Either go with Dragons and CC characters _or_ magic for starters. When you have a good holld of that you can start the mixing out part. Doing both is very hard to fiddle into a normal sized army, alot worse if you have a 600+ pts Lord allready! Dont start out that way:nono:

And to give a solid answer if its viable. No.
Thats why I wrote take 20(2x10) archers for core. Thats the cheapest(cheapest usefull way) way around it as HE player, and its actually quite good with some shooting backup! Those archers combined with 2 RBTs support the army more then well


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## endgamecutter

i guess ill build up from dragons and CC, since thats a hell of a lot more visual. since you didn't simply say dragon, I'll assume theres more than one type of dragon i could use, is this just an overactive mind, or am i right?


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## Vaz

Indeed, there are 3 Dragons. Each one does the same thing, but gets better as you increase in Price. Dragons used to be identical except for Breath Weapons, in previous army books (Chaos Excepted). And with the Dragons being so famous in Caledor, there are 3 kinds, usually used to show the age of them, as they don't die, just get stronger as they age.

With a Lord on Dragon (particularly Star), you're looking at 650-700pts for him, then 200pts for a unit of Dragon Knights, and 150 for units of Silver Helms. Then you have Bolt Throwers taking off another tenth... You soon end up with an army thats by ratio smaller than my 20model 1000pt Chaos army.

When looking at these points, you can't afford to waste any points, anywhere.

With Cavalry, it's even more of the case, as you still have a similar sized unit, but if you fail to break, then you've lost.

Your army is looking like 25 Cavalry Models, 20 Archers, a Lord on Dragon, and 2 Eagles Claws.

Not very good.

Consider an army you would be going up against.

Chaos are popular at the moment.

2-3 Heroes, including a Mage or two. That's your dispel out the window. Now as I've said, they have two real heavy cavalry hitters - both easily outclassing your own. 2 units, of any mix of them, are popular. Then the infantry - One Chaos Warrior unit, Shields, and any other option, 4x or more Marauders have shields and Great Weapons.

Then you have a Heavy - either a Giant, a Shaggoth, or a Kholek. Any of them is a match for a Dragon - Eadbutt, Swing with Club, 5 Str 8 D3 Wounds... Not to mention even a Dragon wounds on 5's (?) vs. a Shaggoth. All in all, not good for Elves. And that's a typical tournament list.


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## endgamecutter

so...is it cavalry is a bad idea, elves are a bad idea, or dragons are a bad idea? if the dragon costs so much without being able to win against these things, whats its selling point?


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## Othiem

endgamecutter said:


> so...is it cavalry is a bad idea, elves are a bad idea, or dragons are a bad idea? if the dragon costs so much without being able to win against these things, whats its selling point?


The selling point is that your opponent has to either throw several units at a dragon to keep him busy, thus allowing your other units to go nuts, OR your opponent ignores the dragon and tries to clean up everybody else, leaving the dragon free to burn down all before him. WFB isn't very friendly to specialized lists, as very few units are able to dominate on their own, and those that are are crazy expensive. For a competitive army, you need a little bit of each.


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## endgamecutter

but the other guy said that a dragon would be mostly helpless against the shaggoth (ill be shocked if the shaggoth is the only one too, if there are apparently lots of these heavies) so couldn't they just use a turn to send one after the dragon and use their other forces on the main army?


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## Othiem

No way, your standard shaggoth isn't going to stand up to a dragon + rider, and Kholek is up in the Star Dragon points range. A giant could beat up a dragon for sure, except he's more likely to fall on his ass. 

No, there really are not a lot of huge heavies running around that can go toe to toe with a dragon, Warriors of Chaos just tends to have 90% of them. And when fighting Warriors of Chaos, their utter lack of range gives you the freedom to take advantage of the dragons 20" fly move to leap around the board, you don't need to slink behind cover avoiding bolt throwers and cannons. The who can beat up who point becomes moot, as your dragon can fly around charging into weaker units, or stick with the breath weapon and act as a platform for a mage if you go that way. 

The problem you are running into is not a dragon issue, it's than any army that drops a 600 point model on the table in a sub 2250 game is going to be horribly outmanned by an army that spreads their points more evenly. Vaz is right in that trying to stack 25 cavalry models in there will get you nowhere. However a dragon, one block of cav, some spears, some SMs, and now you're looking at a list that can back up the dragon and let him get to work.


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## endgamecutter

would lions of chrace fit into that? i think i have 3 of them in my mini-bin. also, i was snooping around the GW site to get an idea of what would be expensive to use, and i happened across an army list with a dragon for 395 pts including upgrades, so whats all this about 600? and my starting army would still probably be around 1500 points so i could learn the game, so i'll probably just get a horse-prince or something to tide me over until i start swinging around a model i hope is bigger than my bloodthirster.


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## Othiem

600ish is for a Star Dragon with Prince, that's the big one. You're probably looking at a list with a Sun Dragon.


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## Ascendant Valor

The whole dragon list idea stems from the fact that you would focus on the dragon. This reminds me of the "I Concede" topic... Basically, a dragon makes you put all (or most of) your eggs in a single basket. Not cool for a sub-2500 point game (maybe 2250 if you're good). Though good fighters, my dragons have always been the sole targets of every piece of war machinery and magic fielded by the enemy general. Hence, I tend to leave them in Ulthuan.

As for HE magic, it's decent. But HEs real power comes in their ability to slow or stop the enemy's magic phase. Drain Magic, cheaper scrolls, the Annulian Crystal, and so forth all come to mind. Sure, High Magic does have some beastly spells, you'd be wise to remember that HE mages are far more expensive than just about any other mage in WHFB. The exception to this is an Archmage with the Book of Hoeth or Teclis himself, but that's for another post, I'd imagine.
Don't be fooled by the Dragon Mage or Archmage on Dragon, either. Though the Archmage and Dragon Mage are nice as far as mages on their own, combining them with a Sun or Moon dragon isn't such a great idea. They'd be better left on foot so the points could go elsewhere. Imagine combining Cookies with Fried Chicken. If you would prefer a Mage on Dragon, do use caution: The dragon is meant for CC, the mage is NOT (even with Flaming Sword of Rhuin, they're still T3 with no armor).

Since the HE have no core cavalry, you'd be wise to start to weigh the options presented for core. You should agree that you'd want minimum core units with minimum points put into them. I typically use 2x10 archers, but that's not always the most effective if you want an all-CC army. Oh, and do think carefully if you want to use Sea Guard... they're too expensive for a HE Cavalry army.

As for the Special slots, HE are golden here. But be warned... Silver Helms are barely able to go toe-to-toe with ANY other army's core cavalry, on a charge or not. They may seem cheaper in points to Dragon Princes, but weigh your options carefully here, too: 
With 5 Silverhelms with a full command and shields, you'd run 155 points (I apologize if this goes against the forum rules).
With 5 Dragon Princes with just a musician (just in case), you run at 160 points.
They have the same base-line stats, save for the DPs extra attack, initiative (like that matters...) and leadership. Armor Save is the same, Movement is the same.
Thought DPs won't have a command, you can just as easily rely upon non-static combat resolution to save the day. That is, unless you fluff your attacks... Rubber lance syndrome will be the doom of your HE Cavalry, more so than any other cavalry out there.
Point being: Take DPs over SHs.

HE Chariots are cool, too. But remember that they too are not practical in all cases. They do eat away at your Special slot allotments faster than anything else in the army. Though I can say that my Lion Chariot has done me many good favors.

Reavers are a nice touch, though somewhat limited in use in CC and in Shooting. St3 bows are laughable against anything with a 4+ AS or better. They will also be violently denied victory on a charge, so be careful with them. They can, however, harass or defend flanks, hunt war machines (as long as they aren't looking down the barrel of a cannon) or mages, and march block.

For Rare, Great Eagles will be your friend. They can slow up your enemy long enough for you to stand a good chance at getting that oh-so-important charge off by turn 2. Though poor fighters, they can also fill the same role as the Reavers, mostly.



HE can field a decent Cavalry army, make no mistake. With cavalry, outnumbering is ALWAYS an issue, so don't let that fool you. With HE, you do have to be exceptionally tactful to stand a decent chance, though.

If HE, aside from cavalry, float your boat, they do have plenty of other strong troops, too. Check out their Army Book if you have a moment, endgamecutter.

Your White Lions, for instance, hit hard and first with WS5 St6 attacks! Great for tackling the big beasts in WH.


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## Ascendant Valor

I also should mention that a HE Prince can ride any of the three different Dragons. Of course, the points cost will be determined by the quality of Dragon they're are riding upon, as well as the equipment they are given.

Right now, I can think of a couple set ups that are (1) cost effective, but poor relative to (2) the superior model.

1. Prince on Sun Dragon
Naked

Total: 380


2. Prince on Star Dragon
Sword of Hoeth
Armor of Caledor
Gem of Courage

Total: 618


Granted, both setups are just off the top of my head and not very solid, but those do signify the points range that a Prince on a dragon can take up.


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## endgamecutter

do you mean strength by st? cause if you do, either the site is contradicting itself, both you AND the site are lying to me, or both mean either geared up or on charge. (I appologise if that came out rudely).
also, since the prospect of an elven cavalry army has pretty much withered into less than nothing, I was looking around at the other army that interested me: the vampire counts. I like the prospect of my army getting back up after being shot at, and i also love vampires (atleast when they retain their logic enough to not go on suicidal rampages). I read somewhere that the blood knights vampires were apparently non-evil, is this true? and also, are blood knight boxes REALLY $90? Or is the site misleading me here too?


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## Ascendant Valor

St, at least in my posts, typically denotes the Strength statistic.

Onto the topic at hand:


endgamecutter said:


> the prospect of an elven cavalry army has pretty much withered into less than nothing


As I stated before, a High Elf cavalry army can be done, and it can be done quite well. Don't think I was leading you away from it, I was just bringing up some overly-biased and over-exaggerated points. If you wish, I can help you through at least some of the logistics in making a High Elf cavalry army. 
That was, after all, the route I initially took with them (and still play from time to time). As such, I'd like to think I'd have at least some idea of what's going on!


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## endgamecutter

If a cavalry army is gonna be hard, i should probably start with something more basic. the only times i've ever played a wargame was in lord of the rings battles with my friend, and i only slaughtered him every time because i have about 10 heroes playing by the rules of their defence is what you need to roll to wound them, which made my heros i think literally unkillable. That combined with the fact that my only real tactical prowess involves sending a legion to its death, then preparing a new legion built to counter what i saw in the enemies base in RTS video games where you technically have limitless troops at your disposal, i wouldn't say hard-to-use-well armies would be the best choice. That said, I wouldn't mind advice on how to go about it, cavalry or no. And I'm also considering the counts a bit more, the main things making me think twice there are the prices of some units (*cough* blood knights *cough*) and the fact that their evil, so any enlightenment there is also welcome.


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## endgamecutter

An update as to what this topic is now about (its kinda changed...alot)

High Elves, as much as I'd like a cavary centric army with a dragon, thats pretty impossible for someone as new as me (and probably in general too). I guess either a lions or a phoenix guard army would work best (i value defence...almost enough to make me consider dwarves despite their hideous beards), but the genericness of them kinda bites at me a bit.

Wood elves, ranged warfare never really was something that struck me as a good idea (i worry about what happens when the charge is on me) but I've seen how effective it can be in video games (and heard about it in cases such as dwarf gunlines and static tau lines from 40k, they look kinda nice, not over-jazzing shiny-bits too much, but suffer the low durability of high elves (i suppose somewhat mitigated by ranged combat) and genericness

Lizardmen, I'm not sure whether i like the look or not, what i DO know is that its more original than elves, have good magic, ssswwwaaarrrmmm!, and i think good durability.

Vampyres, i like the look of blood knights, graveguard, and opf course, vampyres, but the undead look repulsive in most cases, and since I'm gonna be ressurecting swarms of them...

those are the armies i like the look of (i should probably change the title of this thread...) so can anyone push an envelope by either destroying what i think i know and/or telling me the prices of each?


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## Othiem

endgamecutter said:


> An update as to what this topic is now about (its kinda changed...alot)
> 
> High Elves, as much as I'd like a cavary centric army with a dragon, thats pretty impossible for someone as new as me (and probably in general too). I guess either a lions or a phoenix guard army would work best (i value defence...almost enough to make me consider dwarves despite their hideous beards), but the genericness of them kinda bites at me a bit.


High Elves really are the "defensive" elves, and if you like that play style you'll like them. ASF lets them sit back and position themselves better without having to sacrifice position to get a charge, and drain magic and other perks make them highly defensive in the magic phase.



> Wood elves, ranged warfare never really was something that struck me as a good idea (i worry about what happens when the charge is on me) but I've seen how effective it can be in video games (and heard about it in cases such as dwarf gunlines and static tau lines from 40k, they look kinda nice, not over-jazzing shiny-bits too much, but suffer the low durability of high elves (i suppose somewhat mitigated by ranged combat) and genericness


Yeah charging would be a bad thing....if you could ever charge the buggers. If you don't like ranged then don't go with them, but they've got enough tricks to keep them out of harms way. Some people feel playing them is boring due to the dearth of close combat phases.



> Lizardmen, I'm not sure whether i like the look or not, what i DO know is that its more original than elves, have good magic, ssswwwaaarrrmmm!, and i think good durability.


All true, lizards are fun. For an original army though, they probably play the closest to the "core" idea of the warhammer rules than any other army. This makes them a great starter.



> Vampyres, i like the look of blood knights, graveguard, and opf course, vampyres, but the undead look repulsive in most cases, and since I'm gonna be ressurecting swarms of them...


The army is strong, but if you like strong combat units, don't go with vampires. The army revolves around hordes of weak troops and crazy powerful heros.



> those are the armies i like the look of (i should probably change the title of this thread...) so can anyone push an envelope by either destroying what i think i know and/or telling me the prices of each?


Prices for all those are about the same, with High Elves possibly the most expensive due to metal units of phoenix guard or swordmasters. Vamps can get a bit expensive since you need a ton of undead, but you can just pick up two battalions and that will take care of you for a while. High point cost plastic saurus make lizardmen likely the cheapest force, but none of your options really stand out pricewise from each other.


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## Ascendant Valor

Do remember, endgamecutter, that eBay can be a wonderful tool if you're looking for a cheap setup. I've heard many good stories of people finding painted armies for much less than they'd expected. But do be careful regardless, in case of fraud or something of the sort.

As for which army, you know my stance on it by now, I'm sure. Sure, DP, PG, WL and SM will cost a bit, but eBay may help; and you could always proxy them with any of the plastics you might get your hands on until the funds come in for you to buy more metal figs.

For instance, the Silver Helms that come in the batallion box can make excellent Dragon Princes (a good start for your cavalry army!), while you take some extra Spear Elves as the special infantry, like SM, PG, or WL. When you get the cash, get some of the real models for the units, and continue on.

Also, the boxed sets, like the two plastic Mages or the Prince and Noble set can make some good replicas of the special characters. The prince on mount model made a solid Tyrion for me, for instance.

(Do remember that these ideas will work with any army)


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## endgamecutter

in my case, eBay is a useless tool, as i lack the means to use it.


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## Ascendant Valor

If eBay is no good, then you'll just have to deal with the ridiculous GW pricing, unless your local hobby shop has better prices. So just be careful how you spend your money.

If you want a cheap army, a horde army will not be the best case to start with. Though each unit box usually contains 20 models, it is still likely to cost US$30-35, and you will need quite a few of them to create a reasonably sized army. That's why I haven't really cared for my Empire army... it's just too hard and expensive to create a decent army (in my opinion, remember).

As for the most cost effective army; I really cannot say. I think you'll be paying up the arse with whatever faction you choose. As I stated above, you're likely to invest less money in an army whose units typically cost more points (like elves, ogres, etc). I would presume the other folks on this forum will have more insight into this idea than myself.

Crunching Numbers: I just created a hypothetical 2000pt army, I'll detail the costs:

Archmage (360 Total)
-BoH

Mage (140) Total
-Dispell Scroll
-Dispell Scroll

Korhil (140 Total)

Caradryn (175 Total)

Archers x10 (110 Total)

Spear Elves x16 (169 Total)
-Full Command

Dragon Princes x5 (150 Total)

Phoenix Guard x15 (305 Total)
-Full Command
-Banner of Sorcery

White Lions x15 (255 Total)
-Full Command

Repeater Bolt Thrower x2 (200 Total)

Total: 2004
So, you have 2000 points. I'd estimate the cost to be around US$300; Use the Battalion Box for the Spears, Archers and SH (who proxy as DP), while you grab the boxed pair of mages, Caradryn and Korhil, the PG and WL and an extra RBT. It's far from cheap, at least in my mind, but that's a pretty reasonable army that can stand a decent chance against most, and is kinda fun (despite the lack of magic item use). Trust me on that one. Plus, it has the DPs and PGs you were interested in (I think...).


Another thing to remember: if you're looking for an army to lead to easy victories, you're going to be disappointed. Any army in WHFB has the capacity to beat any other army (even Ogres have a chance against a DoC army). All that really matters is how well you play your army, so feel free to go with just about whatever army you wish, if win-ability is that important. Otherwise, focus on the fluff or looks, or some other aspect of the like. I just thought I'd include that little tidbit. Sorry if it was already obvious!


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## endgamecutter

I wasn't expecting an easy fight, i just didn't want to be trying something harder than out-singing Bruce Dickenson.


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## squeek

I think the thing you need to remember when picking an army is that it is important to know what you want from it. If you are a competitive player then as much as you might like the look of an army, picking a sub-par line up is bad news. If you are not so worried about winning, then make a cavalry-based HE army, or a fluffy OK army, or whatever army you really like the look of as long as it is legal.

I would suggest you have a read of the army introductions in this fantastic sticky, An Introduction to the Armies of Warhammer, though there are a few armies still to be finished the thread is full of useful advice from fans of each army.


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## Ascendant Valor

Had to Google that one, cutter... ha ha!

Anyway, the army I made is all about punching the enemy in the face as soon as possible. If you do that, then the ASF and high WS and reasonable S mixed with the decent number of attacks will usually give your enemy a headache, while the Archmage can toss around some decent spells to help your forces or hinder the enemy. The Mage is just a simple scroll caddy, to make sure you have an out in case your enemy has some powerful spells. Caradryn can and will neutralize any ridiculous enemy character you may face, and can also be put into the WL unit for interesting results. Korhil is good against cavalry and anything else with a good armor save, and will benefit from being in the Phoenix Guard.

You can trim the number of WL or PG to add in a chariot to keep up with the DP and do some serious carnage before any other infantry get within charge range, too! 

The RBTs and archers help to reduce the potency of the enemy, but that's it. The also limit the amount of victory points they can take from you, too.

Again, that's just a quick list for the High Elves I made that isn't too spectacular, but isn't that bad of a price for a Warhammer army and should prove to be quite fun.

If you have any more questions, do ask; I'd like to see a few more HE players around.

EDIT: Oh, and check out Squeek's link to the Intro to the Armies. It should help if you're ever stumped on an army choice. Great points, Squeek!


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## endgamecutter

hm, wait a tic, are the brettonian mounted guiys in the battleforce core troops? if so, I have a battleforce collecting dust I might consider using (not the pegasus though, i broke the floating stand it came with inside the hole where it attaches, so its broken) I probably wouldn't use the peasents for much, i don't like them much, just charging cavalry. Other than that, new system for me to consider after reading the intro-army thread (i hope it gets completed soon:threaten
Gameplay: high elves, Lizards, (maybe) Bretonia
Looks: high elves, (maybe) ogres, (maybe) Bretonia
Fluff: High elves, ogres
Ying/Yang (good vs. evil): High elves, (maybe) Bretonia (maybe) Ogres (maybe) Lizards
Painting ability: Bretonia...what? I'm a bad painter, the only notable feature of my painting is the degree to which I mix colors...wait, I just got a whole bunch of new color scheme Ideas for my brets!...and a need for half a body


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## Vaz

Yup, they are.

Knights of the Realm are a Compulsory Core Choice, and Knights Errant are Present as well.

For Lizardmen, they are certainly against Evil, they were designed to fight against Chaos. However, the Lizards have spent so long guarding the Ancient cities, and people come to plunder, so they usually attack them.

Bretonnia are for themselves, but have a semi-special relationship with Wood Elves (who again, are for themselves, but are the nemesis of Beastmen, so are good), and are also famed for fighting against the Vampires and norse raids, so can be considered good.

Ogres are currently quite weak - however Bretonnians aren't - you can also get easy ranks - you only need to be 3 wide instead of 5, and models down the side can attack as well.


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## endgamecutter

I guess its down to elves or bretonnia...durability over-god damnit, not this arguement again! *sigh*, it ALWAYS comes down to durability vs. power (and don't argue that point, I'm pretty sure that a dragon is more powerful than a horse, not to mention elitist troops and powerful magic) alright let me see...maybe I could look at it creativity (coat of arms means i can paint every model with a different color scheme in theory) vs myth (dragonsssssss)


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## Ascendant Valor

Nobody ever said an army HAS to look a certain way. Bretonnians can all have a common Heraldry, or High Elves can all have different schemes. It's all up to you.


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## endgamecutter

*sigh* FINE savings vs originality, happy?


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## Ascendant Valor

Ha ha, I'm sure just about everyone has found I can be a stubborn ass!


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## endgamecutter

I'm sure they have...
and now its hit&run vs...whatever goes well to adress high elves as, because I found some images on the games workshop site of bretonnians...even the KNIGHTS are deformed *shudders* I'll probably head down to the GW somewhere near a movie theater thats semi near my house, and try a sample game with one or both of the elves that interest me, anything else I should know beforehand?


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## Ascendant Valor

BRING LOTS OF MONEY! :grin:

Seriously, though, remember that ANY GW stuff is fairly expensive. Be ready to drop a fair amount of money, and quick.

Also, make sure you know what army you want to start to some certainty. If you're still undecided snag one of the Army Books and just check the details out. If worse comes to worse, you can likely ask to swap books.

For High Elves, the book and a battalion will go quite a way. A bit expensive for an initial purchase, but it should last you for 500 to 1000 pt games, if you manage to proxy a character in or two. After a couple games, you'll probably have an idea on which units to start tossing into your army.

Best of Luck with the game, by the way. Hopefully, if you can get your hands on the High Elves, you'll see just how cool the Asur really are!


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## jigplums

i dont consider £65 expensive for an initail purchase, i think its worth bearing in mind cost is a relative thing so expensive to you may not be expensive to someone else. Petty point i know but i don't earn loads and drop £100+ a month in gw. Its what i enjoy so is more than worth it too me. hell i bought my brother a t-shirt that cost £75 for xmas because he likes affliction clothing. To many £75 would be expensive for a t-shirt, but as its what he likes its worth it.


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## endgamecutter

well, due to weather constraints, I'm probably gonna wait til around march to go (way too cold for trying to FIND the store) so, I guess I'll just keep painfully analizing this as much as possible, seeing as I want to atleast feel I'm trying (and i need something to do while I can't access my PS3) so now I somehow managed this conclusion to my army opinions, so to those who have somehow not become impatient with my attempts to choose something so simple, (and I thank you for it) flame away!

High elves: they have a lot of stuff that interests me (powerful magic, dragons, elite troops etc.), the things making me uneasy are defences, and the lack of originality in being an elf.

wood elves: same as the elves, but they have tree units to give me some durability, however, they rely less on a solid strategy than the high elves, making them a bit less easy on my abilities, other than that, not really different than high elves

Lizards: I've started to like the look of them, and the more I read about their abilities (like durability and magic in one sweet toad of sh!t) the more they seem to resemble my prefered tactics. On the downside, I'm still not sure which side of the good-evil spectrum they occupy, and the look even harder to paint than flesh (my worst nightmare) Its also kinda hard to personalize anything about the army, from what I can tell, lizards are mindless being designed by the Old Ones (for gods sake, GW, is it SO hard to either make this and 40k canonically related instead of just using the same names and gods for absolutely everything? even the empire is the exact same as the imperium, you know its true...) who exist only to be used by the slaan to fufil the great plan.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

Want my advice? Stop analyzing so much. In my experience, if analysis doesn't yield a firm conclusion fairly swiftly, it's probably a wasted effort and will only lead to you second-guessing your eventual decision, whatever it may be. I reckon you should go with the Asur (High Elves). That was your first instinct, and it's not like any other army bar Chaos Dwarfs is a more "original" choice. Plus they'll always hit first, and often quite hard, so their durability is less of an issue. 

Incidentally, the Lizardmen are ostensibly neutral, viciously defending the plan of the Old Ones as they perceive it and trying to thwart Chaos's domination of the world. However, Mazdamundi (the oldest living Slann, and thus more or less the Lizzies' head honcho) has apparently recently determined that the Great Plan can only move forward through mass genocide, which seems more than slightly evil to me. So there you go.


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## endgamecutter

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Want my advice? Stop analyzing so much.


as nice as that would be, I'm not kidding when I say that I think over-analysis has literally been absorbed into my subconsious. no, seriously, I can't simply say "this one" to anything thats gonna have such a drastic impact on the future (be in schoolwise or boardgame/hobby), I always go over the possible outcomes constantly, trying to figure out which one will give me the most pleasing results.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

Heh. I do the same thing. I always have, and will likely always continue to do so, but I know for a fact that in most situations it's the wrong course of action. If you can break the habit, do. If you can't, try - at least you can always say you gave it a shot .


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## Vaz

Lizards are really quite easy to paint. Choose 2 colours that complement each other well. Choose a Shading (usually a wash) for the 'skin', and a highlight for the scales. Voila. Simple.

Obviously, you can get better results by spending more time on it, but it looks really effective for the time spent on it.


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## endgamecutter

the problem is mainly that I've never done more than the undercoat and one layer of colors, never done washes because the one time I use black ink completely blackened the model so I had to start again, never figured out how to do highlights etc...and how come I had to wait until now to find out that wood elves could have toughness 5 multiple wound multiple attack strength 5 fleshless trees to kick ass with? (treekin...and are they in blisters or box sets?)


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## Vaz

You're painting too thick.

THin your paint down (60:40 paint to water should be the thickest), and let the wash settle in the recesses. When it's dry, quickly layer over your base colour, leaving the wash in the recesses.

They are in Blisters. And very expensive, as they are one per Blister. Don't put too much trust in them, though. Good as they are, they're suitable for smashing through the light infantry units, and holding a charge until the Eternal Guard can support.

Basically, they do the job infantry do, while the infantry do the job Monsters do. Still, if you're in Combat, you've done something wrong.


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## endgamecutter

i have trouble believing that its a bad thing if you're in combat part, I mean, I saw that tree-only list in the army list section, and since no trees have ranged skill (i checked, the site helps alot more than I thought) that means that the W.elves SHOULD be able to win with combat, shouldn't they?


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## Vaz

Unless you've dedicated yourself to combat, then Ranged is your strength.

Focus on your strength, and minimise your weaknesses. Wood Elves need dedicating. Look at the successful Wood Elf Army lists in the tournaments. They are either Elven Combat, or Elven Ranged. Tree Only lists are typically Treesinging Mages, or a Treeman Ancient. Ranged lists have Highborns with the Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins, or Hail of Doom Arrow.

This means you're looking at one or the other. I would never ever suggest going for something so fragile that requires on a single trick in whatever build you go for. Chaos? They have the strength that can carry them through. High Elves? They have the speed and ASF. Dark Elves? They have the hitting power.

Wood Elves? They require every trick in the book to win successfully with a Balanced List. I'd suggest stick with either High Elves, Dwarves, Chaos, Lizardmen, Empire or Bretonnians as they are easily capable of covering any mistakes. I don't mean to badmouth you, or insult you by saying that you're a beginner in Fantasy, but you're not trying hard lists, and require some knowledge over the tricks and how to counter with a reasonable balanced list.

I don't run a Dragon Ogre 1000pt list for fun - it's 22 models at 1000pts. It takes practise - typically, even other Chaos Armies have 40+ Models in at this level. I don't want to get outnumbered, but they have the strength to shrug off the majority of stupid mistakes. However, even more so than even the typical glass cannon Dark Elves, make a mistake, and you've got to pull out everything to correct it, without messing up.

I'm not keen on them, due to the apparent weakness of Elves. make Waywatchers Specials, so they're not contending with the likes of Wild Riders and Treemen, and you're set. Not enough 'Lethal shot' to make them better than Wild Riders.


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## endgamecutter

the last line confused me a bit, mind fleshing it out?

I know i shouldn't go fr hard lists, problem is, i don't know WHICH lists are hard, all i can really find out is that toughness 5 with multiple wounds and strength 5 with multiple attacks in a squad (or block or whatever its called) is good, and toughness 3 with no armor is suicide (why the HELL are elves so stupid...and why don't they have armor in their stats when their clearly wearing it?) The general plan for h.elves would be dragon + lions = whole lot of high strength hits, lizards was ready to counter what the other guy tries to do, and w.elves was to find something to do with my army, and use a unit of way watchers (seeing as i already have 3 of them...and somehow 3 dark elf shades) to assasinate key things, like war machine crews, or evil toads of doom (yes, thats all i got on W.elves)


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## neilbatte

Vas is right while the fantasy armies are fairly balanced, granted with a few exceptions, as a beginner to fantasy your enjoyment of the game could be tempered by the inherant difficulties some of the armies present. 
Woodelves, Beastmen and Dark elves are normally second stage armies that experienced gamers move onto once the easier armies to use become stale. Lizards, Chaos, Dwarf, Empire and High elf are the simplest armies to use and although both Chaos and Dwarf lack in some specific phases they still stick to the basic rules set so you get to learn the game rather than a set of army specific rules.


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## Vaz

Waywatchers are beautiful - Lethal Shot is a killing blow ranged attack, making them excellent for taking out Enemy Heavy Units. I've once lost a unit of 5 Knights of Tzeentch with the Blasted Standard (4+ Ward Save) due to the predations of 2 units of 5. It's insanity just how good they can be in a ranged unit.

However, their cost is real put off, due to the other maeuverability you can get from Glade Riders, and the numbers of Glade Guard, not to mention the Treeman being a better unit thanks to his powerful attacks but small frontage. Wild Riders? Ward Save, and the best combat unit in the wood elf list, point for point. However, this is not good for a Ranged Wood Elf list, while the specials are far too weak in ranged (Warhawks? Bah), so the Waywatchers should be a Special Choice.

However, due to the wide frontage, and 90 degree vision, the Monstrous Infantry (Treekin) are quite unmaneuverable, despite their 6" move. Also, they're expensive, limiting the numbers you can field of Eternal Guard, and lowering the way in which they can support.

A typical unit is 3 wide, that's 120mm, or nearly 6 inches. They should be a supporting unit, or an anchor. And that requires immense Micro.

I'm not saying DON'T do them. But get used to the typical tricks of the trade with a 1000pt list, before attempting the advanced mechanics.

For example, you don't learn to Multiply before you can add up, can you?


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## endgamecutter

well, since I don't like being in over my head...*kicks w.elves out the door*
now its either high elves if I can figure out flesh
Lizards if I give up on being the good guy
or Dwarves if I can get over the beards (mostly I don't mind them, just the reeaally big or bright ones, like on slayers or longbeards), lack of magic and shortness

and no, I don't think this list will ever go under 3 options until I settle on one...which could take awhile


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

Aren't Dwarfs sort of the _exact opposite_ of what you originally said you wanted in an army?


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## endgamecutter

well, they're durable, which is one of the founding princibles of any sort of combat I involve myself in (in MMO's i take warrior, in DoW i take space marines etc.) I probably would've just gone with them if it weren't for horrid speed...and lack of cool monsters...and overwhelming beards...and being short...and generally having a freakish obsesion with beer...and no magic...on the plus side though, i could just buy battle for skull pass and have a fullish army of them, plus a rulebook, i THINK painters guide, and an army of goblins if I decide I prefer evil for some reason.


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## Ascendant Valor

Battle for Skull Pass is nice, plus it'll net you about 600pts of Dwarfs (with 600pts of Goblins). Do remember, though, that the set with the paints is around 80 or 90 US$ (somewhat expensive). You do get a couple characters and a few units, though.

Inquisitor Aurelius was dead on... you stated an interest in Cavalry; not stumpy, hairy, drunken miners. Aside from the looks, the gameplay is ENTIRELY different between a Dwarf army and any iteration of a Cavalry army. Do remember that each army plays differently is my point here!

The overall point? You seem to be dancing around between armies. Pick your motivation (Cavalry) and run with it. 
Hence:
High Elves have three different cavalry units and two chariot types, all are quite powerful and can be easy to use.
Lizardmen have saurus cavalry which can deal some damage on their own as well as a host of fliers (from what it sounds like).
Both armies emphasize mobility and a decent magic phase.

You'd be wise to look at these two armies further than to "broaden" your scope. By trying to maximize options, you limit yourself on how in depth you can be in truly determining which army is for you.

My advice? Keep narrowing the possibilities. If you want info on High Elves, check out www.ulthuan.net , there should be plenty of information to chew through for them. As for Lizardmen, I can't help you there, but a Google search should be quite rewarding. I'm sure you can gather a decent amount of information here, too, but it seems as though every opinion matters in your decision.

As for what I did? I rolled some dice and landed on an Empire Battalion.


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## endgamecutter

as I've also stated, durability is one of my staple concepts, and this thread, to be fair, DID start before I learnt about ASF and the lack of armor on high elves, speed is great, but it simply can't compete alone. Which is what got me looking at dwarves, they DO have heavy armor, they DO hit hard, they DON'T move fast, which is a serious con to them, they have no magic, another heavy blow, so for them its whether I want to maximize my combat ability at the sacrifice of all else, lizards if I can get used to godlike toads, and high elves if I forget about durability, which could take a deal of effort...I also don't like how they seem to only know the colors white blue gold and silver...also, out of curiosity, can lizardmen talk? or is just the slaan, or can they simply not communicate with the other races at all?


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## Syph

I don't think you're gonna find an army based on what you're after - which seems to be just about everything! :biggrin: 

I don't recall reading it, so correct me if I do, but have you actually played the game at all? If not, why not? Considering you've got Dwarves down as a potential why not play a stater game as it includes Dwarfs anyway.

And I don't know whether this'll help, but Kinson on these boards is collecting Wood Elves. We played a starter game the other evening and was frustrated by the lack of Dwarven mobility and despite their armour, my Goblin archers still did a fair bit of damage. It's just the nature of the game. He's played games in the past with High Elves btw.

My advice: get the High Elves. You like the way they look, you like the magic etc. You're not forced to paint them white, silver and blue: mine were bone, red and gold! I don't think you can equate your style of play on an RTS or MMORPG to a table top game either.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

endgamecutter said:


> [...] speed is great, but it simply can't compete alone.


Yes, it can. _Believe_ me. 75% of the winning in this game happens in the movement phase - and that's a conservative estimate. ASF negates the need for durability, particularly with things like White Lions and (shudder) Swordmasters, because they'll tend to kill whatever they're up against before it can hit them, and if they never get hit, the low Armour Saves and Toughness became a non-factor. It doesn't help against shooting, true, but heavily shooty armies are the exception rather than the rule. And the Elven Movement characteristic means they can dictate where they fight, and when they fight. Your Dwarf opponent's Ironbreakers have you worried? Don't sweat it - it's the guy with Movement on his side that gets to choose who fights and who doesn't. And anyway, your Great Weapon troops will make mincemeat out of 'em thanks to ASF.

You seem to be deliberately making this more difficult than it needs to be - Dwarfs weren't even on the table until Wood Elves were nixed. We're trying to help you, mate. Let us.


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## Syph

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Yes, it can. _Believe_ me. 75% of the winning in this game happens in the movement phase - and that's a conservative estimate. ASF negates the need for durability, particularly with things like White Lions and (shudder) Swordmasters, because they'll tend to kill whatever they're up against before it can hit them, and if they never get hit, the low Armour Saves and Toughness became a non-factor. It doesn't help against shooting, true, but heavily shooty armies are the exception rather than the rule. And the Elven Movement characteristic means they can dictate where they fight, and when they fight. Your Dwarf opponent's Ironbreakers have you worried? Don't sweat it - it's the guy with Movement on his side that gets to choose who fights and who doesn't. And anyway, your Great Weapon troops will make mincemeat out of 'em thanks to ASF.
> 
> You seem to be deliberately making this more difficult than it needs to be - Dwarfs weren't even on the table until Wood Elves were nixed. We're trying to help you, mate. Let us.


I agree. There's not a race out there that has _all_ you're after. I'd love my Dark Elves to be tougher, but at least they move damn fast, have awesome RXBs/Bolt Throwers and magic. Throw in the hydra, Executioners... Frightening. 

Same with High Elves. Just look at any threads about Swordmasters and how effective they are. 

As I said, have you tried a game?


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## endgamecutter

unless you consider 10-12 named characters and 48 elite troops versus 35 horde troops and one named character going by toughness is what you need to roll to wound a match (and I'm using the elite army) then no, I haven't played a match.
I know you're trying to help, I just always seem to focus on the worst, (eg: i see frail troops when looking at elves, I see evil douchbags that are completely unlikable when I look at chaos etc.) and high elf troops still only have 3 strength, which apparently needs 5+ to wound a saurus, or dwarf, or chaos warrior or anything else that isn't as frail as they are, great weapons (if i'm right, i think they add +2 strength to the user, but I'm not sure) THOSE would immensly help me out for ASF, but what about my basic troops? they still have to try and break a wall with a feather, and get killed by anything harder than a gust of wind, I never rely on any one thing, no matter how important, a fallout plan is always necesary in my eyes.
low toughness is different in the case of horde armies though, they just have so many guys that i could just ignore my losses (unless I'm losing entire regiments, thats worth considering) who knows, maybe I could make the vamps work, if I could avoid the larger hosts of undead (and probably use something like warriors of chaos instead of ghouls)
also, generally how large IS a battlefield anyway? that could make me reconsider my thoughts on dwarves in a heartbeat.

wait a tick, are the little stat headings on the GW site accurate? it says something about armor on the elves, is that out of date, or did the high elves suddenly become the only army holding up a "pick me!" sign? and...if that is accurate, would anyone have an issue if I used dark elf models on the high elves (cuz they look so much more badass...cold ones ftw!)


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## neilbatte

to be honest just looking at stats and models is just pointless unless you have played at least once and have a basic idea of what to expect from the game.
There is only so much people can say on forums like this and it is all down to personal opinion and their experiances, Different areas generally have a different take on the game, different levels of army builds and playstyles so helping you make a decision without local knowledge is difficult.
The rule of thumb when building an army that I use is if I like the look of the models enough to shell out for an army then I probably will.
The armies look usually impacts on their playstyle (Dwarves look slow but hard, Elves faster but less durable) so there is a visual element that can help when selecting an army.
My advise is to get a few practice games in then pick an army you like the look of, start small then if you like the army stick with it build it up bit by bit and only then start analysing the comparative stat lines otherwise you'll end up buying an army based purely on someone elses opinions find you don't like it and either have a load of models you don't want or quit the game completely. Every one on here probably has at least 1 failed project although it can be off putting when its your first.


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## endgamecutter

...but DO they actually have bonuses for armor? I'm probably gonna go lizardmen either way (if for no other reason than to get a laugh out of my friends when I say my army is lead by a giant floating toad)


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## squeek

endgamecutter said:


> ...but DO they actually have bonuses for armor? I'm probably gonna go lizardmen either way (if for no other reason than to get a laugh out of my friends when I say my army is lead by a giant floating toad)


Lizardmen are a fantastic choice my friend, the new models and armybook will make them a very interesting army to play. They are also a good mix of alot of the things you have said you are looking for.

If the whole good/evil thing bothers you it is quite easy to work in to their fluff that they are good lizards. Nobody will argue if you tell them your Lizardmen go to war in the name of the Old Ones in order to save the world from Chaos.


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## Vaz

I've run a list that has no armour. It's never lost a game yet. Armour Means bugger all if you can play a game.

Archaon and Grimgor are the best Point for Point Characters in the Game. Either 10 WS9 Str 5 Attacks, or 7 Str 7 Attacks, with Killing Blow, they can chew through units and enemy models like no tomorrow.

Stop being fussy about a whether it's not good at one thing or bad at another. You're going so far as to complain, that the next thing I see coming is you complaining that a Warrior of Chaos with the Mark of Khorne has a Crappy Ballistic Skill.

Look for an army that suits your ideal.

You originally wanted an All Cavalry Army. Without some good tactical nuance, and general experience, the only thing you should be trying for an all cavalry army is a Bretonnian, due to the ease of their use. Chaos are too few for a Cavalry Army (as an Example, Critta from here, created a 2000pt Cavalry list with 27 models), that will get outmananeuvred if you know what you're doing. High Elves are alright, and don't need Movement so much - they are a Real Beginners army, an Introduction if you like. Something to break you in. Want to get more technical? Try it out with the All Comers lists.

These Are - High Elves, Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts and Dwarfs.

High Elves have fantastic everything, but are expensive, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons and Lizards have Magic and Combat, but are relatively expensive, Dwarves are Anti-magic, and good at shooting and Combat, but require the enemy to close to make use of some of their points, Vampire Counts are fantastic (I'd go so far as to say the best unless against a Defensive High Elf magic Build, Tzeentch Daemons/Warriors of Chaos) at magic, and alrightish in Combat. Okayish as well in the movement phase.

Learn with these, then progress. This IS NOT 40K where there is an army that can take all comers with almost any build. This IS Fantasy where there are no hard counters, so don't need to be good at everything. You want to play a quick game where there aren't that many tactical decisions, play 40K. This means your troops have to be the best, your tanks have to be the best, your Characters have to be the best.

Fantasy is about making the right decisions 2-3 turns in place. You don't, you'll lose.

So please, stop over-analyzing, please choose the High Elves, get the Battalion, get a Character Box, and play a game. It was your original idea. So you like them. Go with them. Don't change them, because you hear that the tactic you chose for them was too complicated.

As I said, this isn't 40K where there are Hard Counters; it's not Rock Paper Scissors. You can make any build work. It's obviously not going to be as effective as some others, but if I can make 22 Models beat nearly 150 in a 1000pt game, I must be able to know what I'm doing. If I'm not, I'd lose. I don't want you to lose games, so play a game with a basic set, find out what suits your style, and build up.


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## endgamecutter

I'm waiting on the /end rant...
I'm DEFINATELY not going to make any batalion purchases until I'm SURE of the army I'm going with (I learnt my lesson when I bought all those chaos marines...) I've heard the people at GW would give you a starter game, so that can help me decide tactics instead of blowing $100.00 out my ass because I MIGHT like them.

Besides, I feel the best build is a flexible one, to hit the enemy with their weakness in order to gain the advantage (such as outrunning dwarves, or imobilising fast elves, or cutting off magic from vamp counts to avoid them raising more soldier etc.) since that IS minimizing my weaknesses. That is the very essence of versatility, and its why I love it so much. I'm sure its vital in fantasy, since theres no take all comers army, as you said (or I just contradicted myself to death).

I can understand if actually getting close enough to hit means more than being able to hit very hard, for example, but if you sacrifice your hitting power for being able to get in range to hit, then the whole point is ruined. A good balance has always been my other staple princible. The reliability of durability combined with the flexibility of balance/versatility is my vision of success, which is why lizards are so closely matched with elves in the army-choosing race. The lizards meet both of my concepts, but don't look as good as the elves. Elves make one of my concepts (versatility) and have cool looking armor...and I don't have to pray I don't break the flying base thingy as much (it cost me my brettonian pegasus) 

All in all, its a hard race, I'm trying to figure out which I'm going to value more: tactics and cooler mounts (and I'll bet cheaper too) vs. style and less potential to waste money, unless eagles are incredibly useful and needed in large amounts, in which case I lean towards the reptiles of doom.


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## endgamecutter

wait, theres one more incredibly decisive detail I forgot to ask about: how BIG is a map generally? (such as 20 inches by 40 inches for example) and, how many turns does your average game take?


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## Othiem

endgamecutter said:


> wait, theres one more incredibly decisive detail I forgot to ask about: how BIG is a map generally? (such as 20 inches by 40 inches for example) and, how many turns does your average game take?


And at that point you need to go and eat yourself a few giant burritos, then spend some quality time with the BRB on the head.


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## endgamecutter

Othiem said:


> And at that point you need to go and eat yourself a few giant burritos, then spend some quality time with the BRB on the head.


er...what?


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## Syph

endgamecutter said:


> er...what?


I think he means you need to read the rule book. IIRC a standard _table_ is 6'x4' isn't WHFB vets? 6 turns?


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## endgamecutter

*does math* gah, imagine dwarf on dwarf with no ranged support for either...
speaking of range support, I HAVE been looking up the armies since I started this topic (in hopes of making this take as short a time as possible, quite obviously, I failed) and the final factor on my elves vs. my lizards has come to this: (I promise, this is the last thing, I don't think its physically possible for any of you to want this topic to continue) what do the lizards have to make up for their lack of any ranged weaponry (I don't consider a blowpipe a ranged weapon, seeing as you can't exactly do much to an armored target with a small needle, and I wouldn't be using too many skinks anyway)


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## Vaz

A Toad with, according to the Pre-Release, the best command of Magic in the Warhammer World. I'm not sure if that includes Special Characters, but if they're up against the Likes of Greater Daemons, Tzeentchian WoC Sorcerors, Tzeentchian Beastlords, and High Elf/Dark Elf Lord Casters, then it's got to be good, even with the Magic Nerf.

Also, there are Razordons, and Salamanders - one shoots Spikes, the other flames, and both models, IMO, and really nice.

Finally, there's the Engine of the Gods/Skink Howdah Gigantic Bolt Thrower.

And yes, the standard table is a 6x4, or 8x4.


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## endgamecutter

i was unaware they could stick a balista on a triceratops...lizardmen it is! thanks for the help, and...sorry I was so indecisive about this


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## Vaz

It's okay - sorry I was so short (well, long rant, short tone) with you - musta bin a bad day.

Anyways - it'll be good to see this grow over time - will you be creating a Project log for us?

And what the fuck just happened? 4 pages of ummmm, errr.... arrrr...? Haha, class.  +Rep for that pal.


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## endgamecutter

probably, first I'm probably gonna wait for the new release before I start getting the lizards, then I'll need to leard how to paint in more than one layer...


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## zabo

squeek said:


> Lizardmen are a fantastic choice my friend, the new models and armybook will make them a very interesting army to play. They are also a good mix of alot of the things you have said you are looking for.
> 
> If the whole good/evil thing bothers you it is quite easy to work in to their fluff that they are good lizards. Nobody will argue if you tell them your Lizardmen go to war in the name of the Old Ones in order to save the world from Chaos.


Plus they have giant FROGS.


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## NagashKhemmler

Ascendant Valor said:


> St, at least in my posts, typically denotes the Strength statistic.
> 
> Onto the topic at hand:
> 
> 
> As I stated before, a High Elf cavalry army can be done, and it can be done quite well. Don't think I was leading you away from it, I was just bringing up some overly-biased and over-exaggerated points. If you wish, I can help you through at least some of the logistics in making a High Elf cavalry army.
> That was, after all, the route I initially took with them (and still play from time to time). As such, I'd like to think I'd have at least some idea of what's going on!


High elf cavalry doesn't take advantage of ASF imo.


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## Ascendant Valor

HE Cav can benefit from ASF, but any cavalry without a charge is usually worthless. Really, though, the ASF isn't what makes them strong. So, NK, I see your point, and I agree :victory:

Even Dragon Princes can't do crap against Chaos Marauders if they don't get a charge!


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