# How To Use I.G. Against Marines



## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

ok so lately i have read quite a few battle reports of I.G. losing horribly to space marine, or chaos marine forces as well as posts asking for advice on buidling army lists for I.G. that work well against armored foes. As a senior 40k player i am hoping to help a few of you with a general tactic that has worked very well for me and is easily adapted or varied so that it can be used with any I.G. player with the basic and common I.G. units

First off i often hear that the strength of the I.G. lie in their tanks and the ability to have commanding firepower from their vehicles....this however is not true. Although tanks are a significant part of an imperial guard army, they r not warmachines capable of winning you a game single handedly. i will touch on this alil later but let me talk more about the real strength of the imperial guard.

Its NUMBERS!!! the guard is able to field more units than any other race in the game (yes including orcs, and nids) and have in my opinion the most cost effective squads to boot. But as this article states im showing you how to use these squads effectively against marines.

1. skimp on ur sergents, (i rarely use veteran sergents and if i do NEVER give them powerfists, powerswords, etc) keep ur sergeants as is, wit the laspistol and cc weapon

2. Now in doing this some of you are probably worried about low leadership against marines and fearing that after the first assault you units will break against marines....the answer Master Vox caster in your HQ and a vox in each squad. this gives you the ability to use ur cc leadership (always and 8+) for everyone squad every turn  this keeps ur infantry squad of 10 troopers running from 5 marines with bolters

3. Always keep more than 6 inches from EACH infantry squad, the worst thing in the world is an assault squad consalodating from squad to squad when you cant even get a shot off

4. Fourth and most important rule of I.G. infantry in my opinion is the weapons you give them. Now although at first look the lasgun looks puny compared to a bolter remeber this. It is a rapid fire gun as well same as bolter. and if your playing SM chances are any guard player with half a brain will not try and assault him (unless u knw that turn your getting assaulted and feel the need to deny him of that extra +1 attack, the only time i rush in my grunts) then you have 20 men firing 2 shots each, 40 shots (even at S3 WILL do sumthing). But lets not forget your special and heavy weapons. For special wep the plasma gun is ur best bet. Same range n rapid fire option as a las and basically gives you the straight bet that if u hit a marine will most likely die. As far as heavy weapon, my personal favorit is a mix of missile launcher and autocannon, Missile launcher is great for hitting more than one marine (and if you have decent luck and hit 4 rines i almost always kill one) and if you use the krag option you now have another anti vehicle (or anti terminator..?) option to go with. The auto cannon is just all around good able to deal with most of their infantry and light veichles like bikes n speeders

Now to end im sure any expeience player is wondering ok so what do u use for his landraiders or predators...? the answer 3 leman russes (mabey one demolisher variant BUT ONLY ONE) Basislik is never worth its weight against marines and the griffon performs just as horribly. 3 leman russes with a basic loadout comes to 495 pts!!! for that your SM player cant even get 2 landraiders and u will be dumping 3 S8 AP3 Templates or 3 lascannons and 9 Heavy Bolter shots a turn...even the tau cant beat that for the point value...finally if you dont think u got enough anti tank get a squad of 3 sentinels with lascannons (i like 2 throw in 1 auto cannon for versatility) and u have effectively 3 cheap turrets that if they kill just 1 predator have already earned theyr points back (i have killed 2 landraiders with 1 squad)

So there you go, the SM are not the gods they seem and IG is a very easy to use army if you keep it simple and stick to wat works...hope this helped sumone


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

In short: Plasma spam IG infantry to beat SM armies...

Also I have to disagree on a couple of points; firstly Krak missiles are pretty pointless firing at Terminators as they are only AP3; you're better off firing Frag at them. 

Secondly, Basilisks are not as bad as you are making out, not by a long shot. The ability to hide them behind terrain and still drop S9 AP3 pie plates on anyone outside 36" means they will have to come to you if they want to stop getting shelled; straight into your waiting mass las/plasma gunline. Basilisks are also better at AT than the Leman Russ, although nowhere near as survivable. Clever positioning to get cover saves is key. 

You also completely missed the Veteran squads; capable of infiltrating three BS4 Plasmaguns in range of the enemy from turn 1, these can be the bane of SM armies.

Also, Vox is a waste of points; having a master vox and say, ten squads, each with a vox caster comes to about the price of another kitted out infantry squad. You are better having your officers in your command squads passing on their leadership within 12", with standards in the squads for the re-rolls; or Die-Hards doctrine, for only 5pts a command squad.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

*ok ill defer on a couple points*

ur prolly right on the vox, however i rarely see players use 10 squads of infantry but agree 2 disagree.

as far as the veteran squads i would just say stormtroopers r a better bet if only because for 2 pts more a model, ur getting a 4+ save for ST, instead of 5+ on Veterans which u DESPERATELY need against marines n massed bolter fire. and hotshot packs can really turn the table when used on rapid fire (turns 18+ S3 shots 2 S4)

and the basilisk is just an opinion i have nuthing to back it up other than experience of, it only getting 2 shots on infantry before all the marines r in cc, (cause lets face it, against guard that is every SM player tactics) and then ur basilisk is only able to hit tanks or dev squads which i find the leman russ a better bet able to fire (1 lascannon shot and 6 heavy bolter shots) with lucky rolling on ur part u could theoretically wipe out a 5 mine squad and a tank each round wit a russ...cant pull that wit a basilisk (unless the marine is incredibly stupid and clumps his units)


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

The bassie is tricky. Against SOME Marine armies it's a good idea, like Iron Warriors (who don't exist anymore I'm told) or Dark Angels. If you can afford standard Leman Russ's, go for it. If not, a basilisk will work. Even better than that is a demolisher with PC sponsons. That's the best TEq killer in the guard army. What's the best thing about being able to kill TEq's? Being able to kill MEq's too!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Forgive the point-by-point breakdown of your post. It's just far easier for me to organize my thoughts this way.



Justicar Auarilius said:


> 1. skimp on ur sergents, (i rarely use veteran sergents and if i do NEVER give them powerfists, powerswords, etc) keep ur sergeants as is, wit the laspistol and cc weapon


Agreed. Only time Veteran Sergeants are worthwhile for the average Imperial Guard Squad is when using Armored Fist Squads as allies for Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters to keep them steady (since the first loud bang will make Guard run for the hills without Ld support).



> 2. Now in doing this some of you are probably worried about low leadership against marines and fearing that after the first assault you units will break against marines....the answer Master Vox caster in your HQ and a vox in each squad. this gives you the ability to use ur cc leadership (always and 8+) for everyone squad every turn  this keeps ur infantry squad of 10 troopers running from 5 marines with bolters


This is really controversial as many discussions have taken place on different forums about this exact thing. Yes, a Master Vox will boost the Ld of your entire army (or, at least every unit in your army with a vox caster) but it makes your Command HQ an even higher priority target for your enemy. It only makes sense to expect your enemy to target your expensive Command Squad with some sort of big, nasty gun. Submunition railgun shots, battle cannons, earthshaker cannons, even Whirlwind launchers will all be aiming at the Command Squad in an effort to take them out as early as possible. Even if the Command HQ is in cover, they're still only Imperial Guardsmen and will take a lot of Wounds even from fairly low-Strength weapons. Fire Warriors are a great example of a relatively basic unit that can shred a Command Squad with ease if not dealt with early and quickly. Lastly, it's nigh-impossible to protect the Guardsman carrying the Master Vox, hence why it may not be a great idea to rely on it to keep your men steady.



> 3. Always keep more than 6 inches from EACH infantry squad, the worst thing in the world is an assault squad consalodating from squad to squad when you cant even get a shot off


Thankfully for Guard players this isn't a worry anymore. As of 5th edition, units cannot consolidate into enemy units after winning close combats which will always give the Guard a chance to shoot the hell out of nasty assault units.



> 4. Fourth and most important rule of I.G. infantry in my opinion is the weapons you give them. Now although at first look the lasgun looks puny compared to a bolter remeber this. It is a rapid fire gun as well same as bolter. and if your playing SM chances are any guard player with half a brain will not try and assault him (unless u knw that turn your getting assaulted and feel the need to deny him of that extra +1 attack, the only time i rush in my grunts) then you have 20 men firing 2 shots each, 40 shots (even at S3 WILL do sumthing). But lets not forget your special and heavy weapons. For special wep the plasma gun is ur best bet. Same range n rapid fire option as a las and basically gives you the straight bet that if u hit a marine will most likely die. As far as heavy weapon, my personal favorit is a mix of missile launcher and autocannon, Missile launcher is great for hitting more than one marine (and if you have decent luck and hit 4 rines i almost always kill one) and if you use the krag option you now have another anti vehicle (or anti terminator..?) option to go with. The auto cannon is just all around good able to deal with most of their infantry and light veichles like bikes n speeders


You're certainly correct in that lasguns are fine weapons used in great numbers. 10 Guardsmen can move up and unleash a good number of lasgun shots by rapid firing. It won't cause much damage, but that's why instead of moving up with just one squad of Guardsmen you do it with two, three or more. :biggrin:

I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment on the optimal heavy and special weapons for Infantry Squads, though.

Plasma guns are great weapons without a doubt, but in the hands of Guardsmen they rarely perform very well. You can generally expect to kill a single Space Marine whenever rapid firing a plasma gun, but there's always a chance of the weapon overheating and killing the soldier holding it. Many Guard players will shrug and say, "Oh well, it's just a Guardsman", but the fact of the matter is that flamers (my personal preference for Infantry Squads) never kill their firers and can easily take out the same single Space Marine if the template manages to cover 6 or more models (which isn't usually that difficult, especially since Space Marines will in all likelihood be coming toward you looking to beat you in close combat.

As for heavy weapons, I like autocannons as they have a high Strength, nice AP value and decent number of shots, but they're a fairly specialized weapon. They're really only decent at shooting up light vehicles with AV11 or less. In just about every other case you're better off rolling with a heavy bolter to cut down light and medium infantry. Heavy bolters are nice and cheap, too.

Missile launchers however, are in my humble opinion a total disaster waiting to happen. Frag missiles can certainly be useful when cutting down light infantry or even Space Marines if they're tightly packed. Krak missiles unfortunately suffer more than any other weapon from the average Guardsman's rather poor Ballistic Skill. It's a single shot weapon that only hits 50% of the time and even then oftentimes lacks the penetrating power (Strength) to destroy heavily armored targets.

This is where the expensive but infinitely more useful lascannon comes into play. While it's still just as inaccurate as the missile launcher and lacks a frag missile option, at least you can rest somewhat secure in the knowledge that when it hits, you'll be causing damage to your target. It's just as good at vaporizing Space Marines as krak missiles are and can scare off things like Terminators and Honor Guard, too.

Katie D


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

katie heres raises good points and i think for the most part we agree with each other (differences on heavy weps are generally just situational differences) how ever katie the one thing u exagerate here is targeting the cc...

first off if ur cc is dieing from firewarriors chances r ur a fucntioning retart for letting firewarriors be that close 2 ur cc. your cc squad should be the farthest from the enemy as possible and def out of range of any basic infantry weps...and since firewarriors r not very good assault units you should b engaging them before any reach 30" of ur cc

second. The I.G. sport in my opinon (and most others) the finest long range capabilities (although tau r VERY close) with the 2 longest range tank weapons and awesome heavy wep squads with your biggest asset being that you will ALWAYs have more than the other player... so if ur worried about ur cc taking fire from hammerheads, broadsides, n such the simple answer is target them first....i guarantee u a tau player will not sacrifice a hammerhead or broadside squad to deduct -1 leadership from all ur squads and if he does....trust me WORTH IT


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Justicar Auarilius said:


> first off if ur cc is dieing from firewarriors chances r ur a fucntioning retart for letting firewarriors be that close 2 ur cc. your cc squad should be the farthest from the enemy as possible and def out of range of any basic infantry weps...and since firewarriors r not very good assault units you should b engaging them before any reach 30" of ur cc


Wha..? Ohh... functioning retard! Gotcha. Please, try to type a little more clearly if you can so everyone here has an easy time understanding you. Not giving you trouble, just letting you know. 

Indeed, you're probably right that basic infantry weapons shouldn't be reaching a Command HQ. I'm not sure about sacrificing a Hammerhead or something not being worth it to deduct Leadership from the entire enemy army. After all, once you're doing that it's as simple as picking off those tiny 5 man Squads and the Guard will be at their very basic Ld.

I do see your point, though. Great to discuss with you! :good:


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

> Now in doing this some of you are probably worried about low leadership against marines and fearing that after the first assault you units will break against marines....the answer Master Vox caster in your HQ and a vox in each squad. this gives you the ability to use ur cc leadership (always and 8+) for everyone squad every turn  this keeps ur infantry squad of 10 troopers running from 5 marines with bolters


Adding to what Katie had to say. With a 10 man guard squad getting charged, having them fail and get run down is better than holding. Most likely that squad will be down to 3 or 4 guys after the combat. Staying in combat allows the enemy unit to be protected from your return fire. Since next turn the rest of the guard will probably be dead anyways after the combat the enemy is free to move closer and charge another unit on his turn. Running away leaves the unit open to be shot at by the rest of your gunline.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

As a very experienced guard player the best most vital piece of advice i can give you is never ever charge with you basic guy's. Take CoD and let your opponent charge you. You will die, in droves however. In your turn you will be free to rapid fire again. Also remember to take a few flamers. Most people over look them for plasma but honestly. With guard, the more dice you roll, the more dice they roll and there are more of you (except against orks lol)!


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Pffft.

Charge.

Deny your foe the extra attack, and lay claim to your armor saves.

It's not brain surgery.

It even works is you DID take CoD (which I don't)

Far more important than WHAT you give each squad is WHERE they are in relation to each other.

You need to create kill-zones which your enemy MUST approach... Even if you create those killzones in their DEPLOYMENT zone by infiltrating much of your army. via LI.

And against Marines, it's a gimme, since they, for the most part, are effective at a comparably short range.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's never about what you bring, but how you bring it.

If you're having trouble fighting Space Marines, totally irregardless of what army you're playing, remember the following:

-Focus on neutralizing a single threat at a time before moving on to the next. There aren't that many enemy units on the table, so completely eliminating one as a threat to your army means you can focus your attention on continually fewer enemy units. 

-Don't get hung up on doing anything too fancy. Stay flexible-- the Space Marines are just as flexible, if not more so-- and you can't give them an obvious weakness to exploit beyond what's naturally there in your army of choice. 

-If you don't get an armor save against boltguns (and, since this thread is about Imperial Guard, you presumably don't.) you're safer in close combat against Space Marines than you are at range. It sounds idiotic, but it's true. You have the same chance of hitting and wounding a Space Marine in close combat as you do with a given lasgun, and the Space Marine is equally likely to hit and wound you in return as they would be firing. The difference is that you get your 5+ armor save. You'd be surprised how many guardsmen that'll save. More importantly, if you feed a squad of ten guardsmen to a given Space Marine unit, you're able to reposition yourself to shred the Space Marines when they do butcher that squad of guardsmen in one or two rounds.

-Be aggressive. When in doubt, advance. If you sit still, your opponent has control of the table and is able to dictate where the fights occur. Don't let them do that. Don't be suckered into sitting still with a unit that has a heavy weapon just so you can shoot it, either-- sometimes, it's better to fall back to a more advantageous position and leave an enemy squad in an unexpected position than it is to pull the trigger on a single weapon. You've got lots more in the army, after all-- not firing one isn't the end of the world.

-If you're playing against a competent Space Marine player, then watch out for low-flying Land Speeders packing multi-meltas. Over the course of ten years of playing Space Marines, the single most consistent killer of heavy armour for me has been a Land Speeder armed with a multi-melta. AV14 really doesn't stand up too well to that sort of thing, so if you're leaning heavily on Leman Russ(es), then be sure that you don't allow anything to quickly neutralize them. 

-Throw the enemy army off-guard. Do something unexpected. It doesn't have to reek of intelligence, either-- if you have a single squad that you don't mind suffering a horrible, horrible death, you can usually draw someone's attention to where you want it by simply putting a unit of Light Infantry or Veteran Guardsmen in a forward position where they potentially threaten the advance of the enemy. It's the divide and conquer mentality, except the squad you use for the "dividing" is both forfeit and not there to do any actual conquering-- just stagger the enemy so that you can focus your attentions on the most immediate threat rather than having to deal with multiple things at a time.

-At the end of the day, the Imperial Guard is still probably the best army in the game in the hands of someone even vaguely competent. It's just a numbers thing... you've got the numerical advantage in men and firepower, and guardsmen aren't as terrible as people make them out to be. If you're still losing consistently with the Imperial Guard, it's not the army or the Codex...it's you.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

They're certainly my only undefeated force. :wink:


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

marzm this article was I.G. Infantry Against SM infantry (stick to the topic) and id agree with cole denying that extra attack is key

and this question was asked by me how to counter WITHOUT using doctrines...so again marzm READ and stick to topic thank you


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

The Son of Horus said:


> It's never about what you bring, but how you bring it.
> 
> -If you don't get an armor save against boltguns (and, since this thread is about Imperial Guard, you presumably don't.) you're safer in close combat against Space Marines than you are at range. It sounds idiotic, but it's true. You have the same chance of hitting and wounding a Space Marine in close combat as you do with a given lasgun, and the Space Marine is equally likely to hit and wound you in return as they would be firing. The difference is that you get your 5+ armor save. You'd be surprised how many guardsmen that'll save. More importantly, if you feed a squad of ten guardsmen to a given Space Marine unit, you're able to reposition yourself to shred the Space Marines when they do butcher that squad of guardsmen in one or two rounds.


I agree to a point, you should not be afraid to get into close combat with guard as they will do alright and burn up a turn of your foes and may do better than they would in the open. Can also block LOS, tie them up and even kill something.

But at ranged you should also make god use of cover, guard benifit a lot from cover. this makes being at range better, then add in special weapon and heavy weapon shots and you will want to shoot most of the time.

But i think his point was don't be so afraid of CC, and ersonally when i fall back i usually move another squad forward into theres. So they attack the squad i want, and i can then shoot em when they are done.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

i might try that morgal...moving a freshsquad to replace a battered squad that would prolly need to fall back...sounds intelligent plus with anyluck when u move up the enemy would b in "RAPID FIRE" range, u do that a couple times would def cause casualties


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Justicar Auarilius said:


> marzm this article was I.G. Infantry Against SM infantry (stick to the topic) and id agree with cole denying that extra attack is key
> 
> and this question was asked by me how to counter WITHOUT using doctrines...so again marzm READ and stick to topic thank you


Okay JA, I get that you're a bit upset that Marz veered from your topic but you have absolutely no right telling a moderator what's what. If you have a problem with something that he posts, you tell a Supermod or Admin - don't get up in his face, or I'll get in yours. Clear?


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

haha WHOA!! katie chill girl, im not getting up in anyones face (kinda hard on a laptop lol) it just seems like he didnt really get wat we were talkin bout so i was just letting him knw wat this discussion was on...

were all adults here (im guessing) and theres no need to make threats or talk smack, n i like u, u made sum good points earlier so just calm down a bit plz no one here is attempting to do anything but have a health discussion


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Justicar Auarilius said:


> were all adults here (im guessing) and theres no need to make threats or talk smack, n i like u, u made sum good points earlier so just calm down a bit plz no one here is attempting to do anything but have a health discussion


Yeah, telling people to "READ and stick to the topic" is a real friendly way of letting someone know that they may not be understanding what's going on.

If you feel the need to talk about this further, send me a PM and please leave it out of this thread. Thanks.

Katie D


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I feel I should reinforce and clarify a bit of what Katie said...

It doesn't matter that MarzM is a mod or not...if you're not a mod, you have no right to order *anyone* to 'stick to topic', and you certainly have no right to shout at them (that's what all caps is on the interwebs). Starting a thread does not give you the right to moderate it. If you have a problem with someone's post straying from topic, either gently try to guide them back or just report the offending post and let a moderator handle it.

I'm not trying to gang up on you here, just explaining things more clearly. 
Next time, try being polite instead of shouting and ordering and you'll find that you'll attract less unwanted attention from the mod staff. That's what brought this thread to our attention, nothing to do with MarzM's position. I'd be here saying the same thing no matter who you chose to shout at.

And for the future, please read and observe the forum rules (link in my sig), particularly the ones regarding post quality. It's difficult for people to carefully read and understand a thread if the author wasn't considerate enough to write it in a manner that's easy to read. You can hardly get worked up over someone missing your point if you're not willing to meet them halfway and make it easier to be understood. The whole 'caps = shouting' thing is explained there as well.

Nobody's in trouble here, I'm just explaining things so that future misunderstandings can be avoided.

Now, <ahem> Let's get back to subject please. Further discussion of forum rules should go to PMs

In my opinion, against marines the best way to go is pro-active. Maneuver, abuse cover (especially in 5th where it's usually 4+), use expendable units like conscripts to provide a defensive screen for the more valuable ones (though bear in mind it will also give the enemy a cover save), charge them before they can charge you, and whore the plasma. A plasma gunner is cheap and well worth the overheat risk, he'll earn his points back before he dies. 

It won;t be an easy fight, but it is one you can win.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

ya galahd makes good points (especially 5th ed cover is perfect for guard now where you can find decent cover almost anywhere)

however i fail to see why youd use conscripts, escpecially in anything over 1000 pts when a platoon of guard is pretty cheap, and the difference in stats in my opinion is worth it....i just find conscripts worthless as a guard player when already your troops are so cheap...

and although i too use a mobile I.G. force (got 2 armour fists squads and all my elites have chimeras for transports or deepstrike) for a new player against tough units like marines, a stotic firing line with just a multitude of lasguns and a fair amount of heavy weapons will also wor pretty well with decent rolls


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

I've always lost to massed lasgun fire, hands down. I can handle mechanized IG pretty easily on account of all my Dev Squads and plasma weapons, but when my opponent fields nothing but infantry platoons and heavy weapon support they cut a swathe through my marines like a lukewarm knife through very cold butter. Personally, I think a horde army with a higher BS than 2 is cheese of the beardiest variety, but that's just me :grin:

Nuttin but love for my fellow Imperial soldiers lol.

Seriously though the surest way for an IG player to take down a marine force is lasgun spam. It's not pretty, and probably not fun, but it works. Just my two cents anyway.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

haha Galus proves my point thoroughly and i agree with him...I.G. are cheap, which is the reason they are my tournament army lol

i one time was able to get 2 full platoons rapid firing on the same turn against nid...for those of you who dont know the stats, i was firing 76 las as well as 6 heavy weapons teams (armed with missile launchers and auto cannons) at 2 squads of hormaguants and some genestealers...lets just my guardsmen never had to fix bayonets lol


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