# Dark Angel dex



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Got DA codex today. Im one of these people who buys most dex's. Tis quite interesting. Anyone else got it yet?


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

nop. going to get it today. looking to start a ravenwing/deathwing army


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Got it ages ago with the army deal, a great codex in my opinion


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Really good stand alone codex I think.

Lots of nice new options especially with combat squads.

Ten man dev squad with four heavy weapons, split into two with two heavy each anyone?

Ravenwing and deathwing look good but the main thing for me is that it seems to hang together as a joint force. Won't suit the powergamers though as there don't seem to be any broken units!


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

Is the 1 asscan per termie unit the standard now?

What are the DA special rules, like traits etc?


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

the cabbage said:


> Really good stand alone codex I think.
> 
> 
> Ravenwing and deathwing look good but the main thing for me is that it seems to hang together as a joint force. Won't suit the powergamers though as there don't seem to be any broken units!


>> Not a DA player, but i agree, it is a good dex. you bang on with the broken units. Everything seems to be well balanced. The orginisation of the RW is good. Much the same, but mixing b/ab/ls together is decent.

>> The single assault cannon rule is good to/ I a marine player, but hated seeing nothing but cannons in lists. Hopefully it will become the norm, stop peeps bitching about the fuckin things. Don't want to start an argument about assault cannons, just having an opinion.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

Wrath of Khaine said:


> Is the 1 asscan per termie unit the standard now?
> 
> What are the DA special rules, like traits etc?



>> Army fearless, that generally it. 1 assault cannon per unit, whether termies or speeders. libby got mind worm psychic power, looks good. Ravenwing bikes all come with teleport homers. Most units get combat squad rule. not much else mate.


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## mattjgilbert (Feb 28, 2007)

A mate has it and I scanned it quickly. I like it. It gives the DAs their own special flavour of list and manages it very well. I can see the Combat Squad option working well in many ways and giving both the DA player and the enemy something more to think about.

It's also good news that Jervis Johnson has taken the time to answer the questions people had about some of the wording in the Codex... especially the assaulting-right-out-the-drop-pod nonsense which seemed to come up 

The same mate is also replacing all his old DA models and getting the new ones ready and painted up so I guess I'll see them in action soon enough.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

firewolf said:


> Wrath of Khaine said:
> 
> 
> > Is the 1 asscan per termie unit the standard now?
> ...


Well, there is the bit about being able to deep strike half your DW termies on the first turn. Why do you think DA bikes all have homers AND!! all DA bikes have the Scout USR. So may always deploy, free 12" move before the game and you can then use the homers to bring in half your DW termie squads (rounding up), and then get a first turn assault with the bikes. Lots more besides that hasn't been mentioned. Shheeeesh, not much else, yeah right.........


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

don_mondo said:


> [quote
> 
> Well, there is the bit about being able to deep strike half your DW termies on the first turn. Why do you think DA bikes all have homers AND!! all DA bikes have the Scout USR. So may always deploy, free 12" move before the game and you can then use the homers to bring in half your DW termie squads (rounding up), and then get a first turn assault with the bikes. Lots more besides that hasn't been mentioned. Shheeeesh, not much else, yeah right.........


>> I missed out 2 rules, oh dear. If i had missed out 4 -5 then bitch. 

>>What else did i miss, oh mighty tome of knowledge?


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

firewolf said:


> don_mondo said:
> 
> 
> > [quote
> ...


Well, there are the Bike squadrons, which can consist of 3 or6 bikes, and attack bike and a land speeder... Course the Attack bike and land speeder are automatically split off per the Combat Squad rule. 
Let's see, doesn't nearly every squad automatically get a vet sgt? 
All I can think of off the top of my head.


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## TYRANIDS (Dec 31, 2006)

can any one tell me sum stuff about ravenwing like wether the whole army can be on bikes and can you combine ravenwing with deathwing? 
or stuff like that cause i want to get about a 2k army of ravenwing but i dnt know wether i should and i dnt want to just go out and buy the codex in case i change my mind

but i want to have ravenwing and if i can make it fully bikes so troops on bikes fast attack on bikes/speeders hq on bike/speeder heavy support on bike or some devastaor squads


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Have eyed thru the codex, and it looks nice.
To bad we (DA) don't get any real flavor treat, like intractable.

But I guess this is what going to happen to all armies to come, that is - less rules and options.

A really good thing is that they finally started to make codex’s that are well tuned and aren't overpowered. No more the best army is the last army.

And no we don't get veteran sgts. for free we always have to take them...


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## EAZY-E (Dec 27, 2006)

firewolf said:


> >> The single assault cannon rule is good to/ I a marine player, but hated seeing nothing but cannons in lists.


http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1785339


As for the dex I think its sucks. They have made almost everything more expensive, they have limited the wargear options and thats about it. True the 5 or 10 man squad thing is characterful but they could of at least given us free vet sarges as well as the grenades to make up for it. That would of been fair.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

EAZY-E said:


> firewolf said:
> 
> 
> > >> The single assault cannon rule is good to/ I a marine player, but hated seeing nothing but cannons in lists.
> ...


umm DA's do get free grenades and vet SGT's and lots more stuff, so whats your point?


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Except they don't...

It's just a hidden fee that you can't choose not to pay.

5 SM's with Vet are 90
5 DA with Vet are 90


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Jeridian said:


> Except they don't...
> 
> It's just a hidden fee that you can't choose not to pay.
> 
> ...


Ahh yes, oh well, you still get free stuff


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

>>"Ahh yes, oh well, you still get free stuff"

Sorry but we don't. We pay for it with hidden costs and less options.

I don't like what I have seen so far, but I feel that GW has taken a new road with both Eldar and DA. Now they have more fixed units and fewer options for characters, all to make the game more streamlined. But I fear that it is the wrong things they are looking at when they "fix" the problems.

Having more options on characters isn't what makes the game difficult.
And I never heard any one complain that WH40K is a difficult game, sure there are some misses in wording of rules and codex’s. But on the whole there aren’t too much to complain about. But if they 

And in the time they put out other codexes, both Eldar and DA will be the most boring and static armies out there. But at least Eldar got more units to choose from, this makes for a couple of different army set-ups.

Tomorrow I will buy the codex and read it more thorough to see if I have missed anything important and then I will judge it.

And as I said, I think this is what will happen to all armies. But if they don't DA is screwed until they get a new codex.
__________

Stubborn and Intractable, RIP 
You will both be missed.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

God don't say 'Streamlined' 'fix' look what happened to the previous epic to current.

Brilliant new models with all the weapons options but 'firepower' instead of different weapon effects. Murdered the game now its a unsupported ghost moaning in the background. :x

All to make it easier to sell to younger and younger people.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

Combat squads is flavorful, but I am confused as to the point of it honestly. It's not as if you can't buy two seperate squads of vanilla marines and play them nearly the same way. All combat squads really seems to do is let you deploy two squads at once and have 12 scoring troops instead of 6. Most people don't use 6 troops choices anyhow, so can just make a 5 man squad with a las cannon and a 5 man squad with a plasma gun and vet sgt with power fist. I've been using the combat squads idea for ages with my vanilla sm's, doing just that, though I use one 6 man and one 8 man squad in tandum. 

Plasma cannons in tac squads is cool I guess, but since 4th ed put a hearty nerfing on small blast weapons I don't see it as being all that worthwhile. I usually don't hit more than 2 guys with a small blast template unless the opponent has them tightly packed into terrain, which he shouldn't. 

I was hoping they'd do something different with DA but the same things that made me decide against them the first time around will keep me away from them this time too, which is primarily the cost to benefit ratio of their terminators. Pay more points to have less firepower? I'd rather have seen a few special rules for, maybe, a terminator command squad and then nothing special for the termi squads but a light points reduction to make a deathwing army more do-able.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Sorry, if that didn't get thru, but that is what I meant.
The game is getting "Dumbed down" and I don't like it.

But in second edition it was too much special rules and strange wordings.

Compared to 40K I really think they made a good work on Fantasy, it is complex but clear.
The way to go would be to have optional rules that you could use to make the game more detailed and have extra effects on the game.

I like the scenario special rules; they work in a way I like.

One thing they seem to be quite set on doing is to have the same wording on all optional and extra rules and I really think this is crucial, so having them printed in one place and referenced make sense. But this hampers the game when they are afraid to bring new rules into future codexes. This means that the game can’t evolve.

This is what we can see in the DA codex, they reduce the extra rules and use a rigid rule set. The thought are excellent but the execution leave a whole lot more to wish for…


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Warboss Dakka said:


> I've been using teh combat squads idea for ages with my vanilla sm's, doing just that, though I use one 6 man and one 8 man squad in tandum.


This is the problem, combat squads stink.
If you want a special weapon squad you usually want some more bodies to back it up.

But for a las-cannon squad five men are perfect.

Now you have to buy ten to get the las-cannon and the best thing you can do is to detach five men to a single group that will have no staying power at all and it won’t have fire-power to make a big difference.




Warboss Dakka said:


> I was hoping they'd do something different with DA but the same things that made me decide against them the first time around will keep me away from them this time too, which is primarily the cost to benefit ratio of tehir terminators.


Deathwing is less efficient then standard termies, but at least they get the first turn deep-strike.

It can be very useful, but on the other hand it could be completely useless, depending on mission being played.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Lord Alkmie said:


> This is the problem, combat squads stink.
> If you want a special weapon squad you usually want some more bodies to back it up.
> 
> But for a las-cannon squad five men are perfect.


No, for a Lascannon squad five men is min-maxed.

The objective of the new combat squads is not to provide even more shooting than the normal Marines, but to reduce the omnipresence of six man LasPlas, and to give them the position-holding capacity they're famed for. As a result your Dark Angels have fewer heavies per man, but that's not what Marines are supposed to be for. If you want heavies, just take devastator squads, which with the Combat Squad rule, more than compensate for the lesser heavy ratio amongst your basic Marines.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> The objective of the new combat squads is not to provide even more shooting than the normal Marines, but to reduce the omnipresence of six man LasPlas, and to give them the position-holding capacity they're famed for. As a result your Dark Angels have fewer heavies per man, but that's not what Marines are supposed to be for.


This is all high and noble and I half agree with the sentiments, but...

In a gaming environment this means diddly squat, zip, nadda. The only thing a player on the battlefield will notice is that the Space Marine player across from him has more variety, more choice, cheaper weapons, etc, etc. Putting him at a noticeable advantage from the get go.

Unless and until it is applied across the armies, it will rightly look like a nerf in comparison to other armies.



> Brilliant new models with all the weapons options but 'firepower' instead of different weapon effects. Murdered the game now its a unsupported ghost moaning in the background.


Have you seen Epic Armageddon? It's free on the GW Specialist Website.
The weapons are split into AP (personnel), AT (vehicle) and MW (everything), with different values for each weapon.
E.g. twin-lascannon is AT 4+
lascannon is AT 5+

Each squad generally has one heavy/special weapon like this, whilst vehicles often have multiples.

It's a very good game IMO.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with Jeridian, the problem isn't the codex as it is but rather all other codexes and how they are built currently.

DA pays more for each and has fewer places to put the heavy weapons then standard marines. We actually don't get any real "edge" over the standard marines.

But I don't care along as this is the way all the other codex’s are heading, but if not I sure will play my DA as standard marines in tournaments.

I also want to point out that it is marvellous and really a great read!
Thumbs up GW


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

You get plenty of edges. Supercheap vehicles, twice as many scoring units, and the ability to split up your devastator squads, purely in terms of basic infantry.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

OK, I give you a half point for that.
Some things are cheaper to buy:

Bike squads are point on if you factor in all equipment. And they get Scouting.

Devastators with plasma are dirt cheep (25pts less then standard marines/40pts if you get a vet for the SM also). Plasma seems to be generally cheaper then in codex SM.

But devastators with heavy bolters/missile/las-cannon are ~15pts more (or 0pts if you get that vet for SM also)

And Rhinos and Razorbacks are cheaper if you get them plain or with the right combination of weapons.
___

But on the other hand our Dreads are ~15pts more expensive then SM dreads if you want a twin-las and missile. And they get no extra options. Actually most Las-cannon options are more expensive then for SM.

Also you have to factor in that most of the times you actually don't buy five or ten men squads, most likely you buy 7 or 8 devastators if you buy all 4 heavy weapons.
So to give the group some staying power you get 2-3 extra marines you might not want and that is an extra 15-45pts per squad.
In troop squads you actually have to pay for ten marines to get a heavy weapon, not just buy five and then a heavy weapon. And I know they can be broken down in two units, but that doesn’t help that much.

And on vehicles you make up for low initial cost (or pay even more) if you want extra armour, it is more then two times the cost of what SM pay. So most of the times DA will pay more per vehicle then SM, or at least the same.

I don't want to start a flame war or any thing, but DA is nerfed compared to SM.

GW finally listened to critique regarding the problem that every new codex gets better and better compared to old codexes. Therefore I strongly believe that Eldar and DA is the new way GW will build codexes, this mean all armies will "suffer" the same.
And when that happens I think the game will be more balanced and have a smoother rule-set all around.

So I am not moaning about it, I embrace it.
Even thou I feel a bit sad that the glorious DA will be one of the first "balanced" codex’s and this will mean that for a time SM and BT will be a stronger option then DA. That is until SM and BT get new codex’s (and I believe they will (don't read this as: I know they will, because I don't))



PS! I leave an option for me totally underestimating Combat-squads and missing some big thing.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> GW finally listened to critique regarding the problem that every new codex gets better and better compared to old codexes. Therefore I strongly believe that Eldar and DA is the new way GW will build codexes, this mean all armies will "suffer" the same.
> And when that happens I think the game will be more balanced and have a smoother rule-set all around.


Completely agree on this point, the only problem being how long will It take to redo ALL codex's and bring them to a level playing field?
While the DA's are somewhat 'nerfed' compared to codex SM anyone looking for a competetive DA army always have the option to use codex SM with traits building up a perfectly themed DA list and at a more efficient level.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> You get plenty of edges. Supercheap vehicles, twice as many scoring units, and the ability to split up your devastator squads, purely in terms of basic infantry.


Supercheap vehicles? Have you seen the price of speeders, Annihilators, Dreads etc? Twice as many scoring units sounds good on paper but when you've got a bunch of 5 man static combat squads waiting to be torrent of fired upon and slapped around In combat by the 'std' 8 man squad they start to lose that appeal, as for non-trait devs there Just begging for torrent of fire and can easilly be avoided due to their static nature.
Great codex fluff wise, but as It's already been mentioned for the hundreth time too many negatives and 0 positives!


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, things tend to look that way when you pretend that certain positives don't count for whatever reason. Works twice as fast when you don't even cancel the negatives you neuter them with.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

:twisted: 
Yes, that’s me only wanting what is best for me and not thinking of anyone else


Seriously, I don't claim that DA SUCKS!!! But I must say that some things don’t really feel thought thru.

Example:
Why does DA have to pay ~10pts more than SM for Las-cannons and Assault-cannons? Isn't it enough to make it hard just getting them in to the army?
(Also we actually have to pay a lot more then 10pts most of the times.)

And yes scoring units are good, but when they come in little tiny groups that easily gets shoot to pieces and then don't do jack***. Is it really any good then?

I think that min-max has its problem, but most armies have the option to min-max.
What I am sure of is that this isn’t the only or best solution.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Because you pay many less points for Plasma Cannon

Your little units only get shot to pieces if you don't use strategy.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Yup, the point cost is reversed. But as stated by me and many more:
You must buy ten DA marines and only five vanilla marines, point cost +90pts.

And I agree that there are worse or better ways to use the surplus five men squad, but they are just that; surplus men. Some where down the line they will get exposed and when that happen, five guys just don't survive as long as seven or eight.

Or have I missed something in the fluff in line with; "DA are known for skulking back in cover and at the last moment reveal them self and say, WE WIN!"

No wars are fought and won by idling sitting by!


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## spikydavid (Mar 11, 2007)

I swear that, if I wasn't so lazy, I would copy and keep every single negative comment made about Dark Angels so that, in a year's time, when the soopa-sekrit combo move of instant death is discovered, I can re-post them all and people will feel very, very silly.

Or I'll just quietly delete them when everyone gets proved right and there is not soopa-sekrit combo


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> I swear that, if I wasn't so lazy, I would copy and keep every single negative comment made about Dark Angels so that, in a year's time, when the soopa-sekrit combo move of instant death is discovered, I can re-post them all and people will feel very, very silly.


We both know that when a new Codex comes out the Netlist machine goes into overdrive and a Netlist is born within 3-4 weeks usually.
The newer Codex's are taking maybe 1-2 months instead (an achievement for GW) but if a Netlist doesn't come out and make IW's shudder after that- then there probably isn't some secret, hidden golden nugget in the DA Codex.



> Or I'll just quietly delete them when everyone gets proved right and there is not soopa-sekrit combo


Unfortunately far more likely.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> Because you pay many less points for Plasma Cannon
> 
> Your little units only get shot to pieces if you don't use strategy.


Thank god for this place, after GW Forums closed down I wondered where I'd ever hear dumbass statements about 40k again.

Your Grey Knights should only lose to Iron Warrior if you don't use strategy...

Yeah, out here in the 40k gaming community fluffy everyone's equal crap like that just doesn't stick.

So in exchange for more expensive plasmaguns, assault cannons, lascannons, squads (since Vet is compulsory, and it's 5 or 10)....I get a cheaper plasma cannon...and free bolt pistols.

Plasma cannon....not that great, blast weapons blow in 4th Ed. Anyone that see's you have a plasma cannon will spread out so either they can't be seen, or only 1-2 can be hit.

And it can overheat...woot.



> Supercheap vehicles


Only the Rhino, Razorback and Autocannon Predator have reduced in price and then when you factor in the necessary Extra Armour...only by 10pts or so.
You know why? Because non-skimmer transports are rubbish in 4th Ed, nobody uses them tournament wise (unless they have no choice- Mech Sisters) and even at DA prices...it's still debateable.
The Predator- twin-lascannon is just better, the only autocannon one I've ever seen fielded was my own...just because I was trying to scrape something from the horrible DA list that actually benefits over Marines.



> twice as many scoring units


If you still think static 5xman squads can cut it in 40k, you haven't played competitively at tournament level.
I could of course have the same number of 5xman squads in my SM list, for cheaper (no Vet), or 6xman to be more survivable, and not have to lump them into 10xman in Escalation.



> the ability to split up your devastator squads, purely in terms of basic infantry


5xman squads- you can keep them.


Basically from a background/fun gaming POV the DA army list/book is very well done.

From a competitive/tournament/actually want to be on equal footing in a game POV the DA army list/book fails miserably.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

Lord Alkmie said:


> Sorry, if that didn't get thru, but that is what I meant.
> The game is getting "Dumbed down" and I don't like it.


The game got dumbed down when it moved from RT to 2nd Ed? There is nothing new about that in GW's rules writing.

At least they didn't pull a Squat or Genestealer cult on us. I think we'll see more DA armoured assaults, rather than Pod lists from early looks at the rules. maybe the rhino rush is back.

I'm Glad assault troops can get their own transports if the ditch the jump packs and that GW has had the guts to not do a carbon copy of the vanilla lists.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

blessed knight said:


> Lord Alkmie said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, if that didn't get thru, but that is what I meant.
> ...


I pretty much concur with all of this.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

blessed knight said:


> I'm Glad assault troops can get their own transports if the ditch the jump packs and that GW has had the guts to not do a carbon copy of the vanilla lists.


I agree, it is fun they don't carbon copy. But then again DA wasn’t carbon copy in 3ed so why make this total redesign?

Might be that they feel that DA should be more in your face then outside your range?

And that’s OK; I like it close and personal. But I feel that we got strange restrictions on point cost and availability.

But the one thing that really gets to me is the removal of the armoury, there is just one word for that: BORING!!!


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

But, but...you've got free bolt pistols, :lol:


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

and frag and krak grenades...


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

YEAH, forgot that...

If it just weren't bolters, I might still be allowed to moan and bitch...
Darn, now I can't complain about any thing.

On the serious side, this is kind of cool. We now get to shoot and assault.
Hey at least it is something


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Well i just think we will have to wait and see what sort of list's people come up with. I feel a bit sorry for GW. If they had created a monster and the list was more powerful than an IW list could be they would be slated! But because it's not they get slated! It's a no win situation. 

IMHO ALL models should come with basic issue equipment as standard. So it's right that DA come with bolt pistols and grenades too. Combat Squads is HOW marines are supposed to work. IMO vanilla marines should have this rule too. Ass cannons are to powerful when used on mass, and tornadoes for 80pts is taking the piss! Personally i think 90pts would have been about right but perhaps 100pts is going a bit steep!

Armoured assault looks like the way to go, this backed up by raven/deathwing. I just think people have to learn to use the army in a different way to normal marines. Once all the other list are updated/toned down i think everything will look ok.

Perhaps (with any luck) this will signal the beginning of the end for powergamers the world over! Three cheers!

MarzM :mrgreen:


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

It certainly won't. There will always be people whose need to win is so overwhelming that no sacrifice is too little. They're just getting cranky now because they have to change tactics.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

I tried a basic SM list using the DA rumours as a model, 5/10 man squads, frag and krak taken on all models. etc.

The list actually worked surprisingly well. I even found myself getting to use the Krak grenades. :shock: 

It gave new Eldar and Chaos a run for their money which to be honest, i was rather shocked about.

having multiple 5 man units may be risky with torrent, but the sheer spread of enemy targets that you can use your heavies on more than makes up for it.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Been reading comments about the cheaper plasma cannon, but others being slightly more expensive. NOw , aren't DA suppossed to be plama specialists? Maybe made cannon cheaper to reflect this? Maybe not, but in WD dude said they were trying to make DA more like they were before the heresy, ie combat squads and plasma. If that was the intention, then its worked. Also agree that all armies should have pistol and grenades as standard, then my Grey hunters may only cost 15-16 pts wi a bolter, instead of 18.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Ok firstly Why compare DA to Iron warriors? We all know they are over powered and can be used by a relative newb and get good results. Therefore we know DA should not be as good as IW as it one of the 2/3 really powerful lists left in the current 40k meta.
Also it kinda gets me that whenever there is a GT heat or final people start bitching about whatever won. Last year you couldn't go anywhere on the net without hearing how Ultwe were broken. Heat one there was endless Mech eldar and tau slating, every list posted had some sore guys who'd gotten owned by them saying Yeah but how would it deal with mech eldar/tau. Then there was a spate on Mech marines. "you get owned by 3 preds and 9 landspeeders". Yeah its true, ALL armies have certain lists they will suffer against. IW can be beaten. The top 25 spots at the final weren't all IW. Remember those guys at the top tables all weekend, they actually are pretty good at 40k. Its not a case of paper/sissors/stone you have IW i lose.

Cool now ive got that out of the way we can look at why I think DA have the potential to be competative. Lets look at the evidence 

Ravenwing bikes having the scout move. So they start in escalation and get a 12" move before the game. So can Charge first turn. Potentially Very good as bikes are pretty tough to dislodge for armies not geared for cc[guard/tau]. 

Ravenwing have Teleport homers and scout. 1/2 your Deathwing can DS on thefirst turn. Ravenwing scout 12" termies teleport within 6" therefore up to 18" on. Side armour shots first turn, or overwhelm one flank. The ravenwing first turn assault can then block most return fire at the Deathwing. 

Preds and Razorbacks: Yes Lascannons are more expensive, but the other options are cheaper. This means you can take a fair amount of armour, albiet not the "optimal" builds, for very few points comparatively. More scoring units, give opp more target priority issues as they need to think if its even worth taking out as cheaper than normal. When Marines were re-done GW admitted that pred's were too cheap, but that they left the costs the same because they thought it would be unfair for chaos to still get them cheaply. Looks like they decided to sort that out in the DA codex. But to Balance it out they make the other options cheaper. Pred with Autocannon, heavybolter sponsons, smoke launchers and search light for less than 6 vanilla las/plas marines. To quote an Orange legend thats "cheap as chips"
Look how cheap the Razorback with HB's is. Yeah lascannons are better, thats why they are more expensive, although DA las razorback is less than Vanilla.

Tacticals:Sure combat squads suck. That out of the way lascannons are more expensive. Why? Well if a choice is taken 90% of the time and all other options are never seen its because the option is too good for its points. The plasmacannon doesn't see much use, even though its not a bad weapon. Solution? Make plasma cannon cheaper and lascannon more expensive. Same with plasma guns. The no brainer choice in vanilla, but if its slghtly more then maybe its worth thinking about the other options for once.

Assault cannons: WoW big surprise them becoming more expenisve, afterall there only the best heavy weapon in the game and too cheap in marine lists and do to marines what Oblits do to IW's. Maybe people will have to think when they chuck there list together. by the way thats a good thing guys.

Rhino's: Rhino's Cheaper: Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee! although EA is a tad expensive you have to ask yourself would you still take it. If it takes more than 5 seconds to decide it was probably too cheap before. Maybe Rhino mounted squads would be worth taking? Rapid fire bolters Can be very affective when used properly. 

Maybe they aren't as straight forward as standard marines or BA where you can throw in 3-6 lascannons and 3-6 assault cannons and know you can deal with pretty much anything by pointing at it and rolling dice.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

I think certain people are seeing the complaints about DA from a fluff vs. powergamer perspective. In most cases this isn't correct, and the posts bitching about how "Hurr, maybe the powergamers will have to think now" are generally not replying to the concerns. 
Its mainly the lack of choice and the mandatory wargear that people think make them worse than normal SM from what I've seen complained about. 
People want the choice to have to pay for mandatory bolt pistols and frag and krak for a dev squad or not. They want the option to be able to choose options for commanders and termies. They don't want to feel worse off than codex marines if they take anything other than the shiny new Raven/Deathwing options. Those are the main concerns I've seen voiced by DA players, not powergamers complaining.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Those are issues i see with the codex as well. although i dont agree with the pistols and grenades as being an issue. Its free and makes absolute sense from the fluff perspective of marines. Yes wargear options are much more individual just like eldar they have restricted our choice in what we can take. However they are going for the streamlined approach and i think we will be seeing this in each codex update as they happen, even marines when they get re-done.

My reply is specifically to the threads on this board that go on about they cant compete with IW so the list must be crap type posts


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

If it's any consolation, how many here actually think the IW list will remain untouched with the impending new chaos codex? I'll be the first to say I'm not builiding an IW army nor will I any time in the near future. The trend seems crystal clear lists GW feels have been abused are getting massive overhauls.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> streamlined approach


Do we have to use 'business speak'?

Dumbed down, simplified, reduced in complexity/choice/variety, all fit just as well.

And I agree with anathema, it is not a 'fluff gamers vs power gamers' thing. Why are fluff gamers happy that there is less and less choice about how they can make their army lists?

The variety in Codex SM's could be abused, but it could also be used to make original, and interesting lists. Like taking bionics on loads of guys- using this as a basis for bionic model conversions, etc.

Actually choosing not to give a squad frags and being punished when you charge into cover.

Actually choosing not to give a Commander and Iron halo and being punished when he gets hit by a fist.

Actually choosing not to give a squad a Vet.Sgt and being punished when they break on Ld 8.

Actually having to make the above choices, rather than having them spoon fed to you.


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## blessed knight (Feb 27, 2007)

Jeridian said:


> And I agree with anathema, it is not a 'fluff gamers vs power gamers' thing. Why are fluff gamers happy that there is less and less choice about how they can make their army lists?


Having looked at the list, i don't see less choice, I see different choices.
surely deciding to build your army with these limits is a choice in itself?



> Actually choosing not to give a squad frags and being punished when you charge into cover.


Why not just not use them? it's not like you payed points for them.
have it as a bit of your chapters fluff.



> Actually choosing not to give a Commander and Iron halo and being punished when he gets hit by a fist.


I think that was more game mechanics to get commanders to be used again over chaplains / librarians. now a librarian, Chaplain and captain all have special gear for a similar cost.



> Actually choosing not to give a squad a Vet.Sgt and being punished when they break on Ld 8.


OK, This one I agree on. My one dislike of the codex.

I think the wargear issue isn't really that bad as you make it. as its a first founding Chapter that mirrors the old squad equipment lists of the RT era Space Marines. Shame we didn't get the Graviton gun back...


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