# Versus Lash of Submission



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Twelve​*
This one's been in the wings for a while. Lash of Submission is probably the most hated power in the chaos arsenal, and probably in the whole game. A successful psychic test and suddenly one of your units within range of the caster is moving under the enemy's control, no doubt being dragged into assault range of a daemon prince, or towed through dangerous terrain, or moved to disrupt shots. What's worse, there's a pinning check after.

It's annoying as hell, and comes from an LD10 source, so even the usual anti-psychic routine doesn't always work.

About the best platform for the Lash is from a winged DP, rather than a Sorcerer, since the prince is much more dangerous in assault, so you;ve got a durable, hard to kill platform to worry about as well

So, *besides* psychic hoods, eldar runes and the like, how do you deal with the Lash?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Generally speaking, nobody around here touches Lash of Submission, because enough of us are utterly nuts enough to have sharp objects in the trunk of our cars.  But more seriously, it's just dumb, so we don't mess with it. If somebody does bring it, it's an out-of-towner at a tournament and we just bitch about him later and laugh about him not getting any of the prizes since we weigh sportsmanship and painting as high as winning games. 

HOWEVER, that's not really what you asked, now is it?

If push came to shove, and I had to deal with Lash of Submission on a regular basis, I'd just make it a point to have something that can whomp a daemon prince in every squad-- usually, that means a power fist. As a matter of habit, I do that anyway, but even an assault-happy monster is going to get seriously mauled by Sergeant Anonymous' power fist. Sure, you'll lose five or six Marines before you bring the prince down, but whatever-- you're still probably on the better end of that deal.

Another alternative is to get creative with your transport vehicles. I use 'em to block heavy weapons squads' line of sight once they're empty, since even if they blow the thing up, it's still blocking line of sight, and if they don't bother blowing it up and instead try to move around it, you can just park the vehicle in front of them again until they do bother blowing it up. Just do the same thing to whoever's casting Lash. It requires line of sight, after all. If the only thing the caster can see is an empty transport vehicle (or two, since sometimes it takes two to completely block useful LOS for a big model like a daemon prince) then that Lash isn't terribly exciting.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Since demon princes are not nearly as nasty as the greater daemon of eldar (Wraithlord for those who aren't in on the joke) lash is fairly easy to use. one thing to remember, only slanesh demon princes can use it. that means no bonus to invulnerable save, no extra toughness, no extra attack. autocannon fire, especially from a dread or termies will make that lash a thing of the past. If the power isin the hands of a sorcerer of slannesh, all the better, combine autocannon fire with any plasma gun fire to ensure elimination.

Of course, you could take the death guard approach, and ignore the annoyance that having one squad per turn repositioned since there are enough that one squad being messed with won't seriously disrupt your plans. 

Personally I don't see the cause for all of the whining, the power isn't all that powerful.


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## ugh (Mar 21, 2008)

Avatar fits the description of "greater demon of Eldar" better then WL me thinks...

All I can think of game wise is get first turn and pie plate the unit with lash to death.


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## hearthlord (Nov 16, 2007)

With my Kult of Speed I send 3 units after the Lash. Since it is difficult to target ICs, getting in hand to hand seems to work. Lash sends one unit back, then the other 2 units move foward. 

My basic ork army has 5 or 6 units of troops (Truckboyzs), one unit of Stormboyz, Warboss on a bike, and Snitrot. Sending enough units to kill the Lash is hard but not too hard. Note: every unit in my army that can have a Klaw has a Klaw.

I played in 1500pt tourney that my opponent had two Lashes and two Defilers. I won.:mrgreen:

With a shooty army, I would try to kill everything around the Lash, then kill it when I am allowed to target it. Not the best solution.

GW should have limited the Lash to one or prevent the Lash from changing the spacing of the models in the unit. But they didn't:shok:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I find powers like lash to be a challenge. I see no reason to complain, as the use of lash is not automatic, and the attempt can backfire. My philosophy is to not complain about bad rues, but to take it as an opportunity to improve my game.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Well i got to agree, the Lash of Submission is a VERY annoying power. Nothing worse then having your opponet line up your best models in the killzone and the others not

honestly to space Marine players, if you know that your oppoentent is going to bring in one of these, make sure you bring in a librarian.

Honestly the only way your going to avoid him is to shoot him with your heavy weapons. That's really it.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Son of mortarion said:


> I find powers like lash to be a challenge. I see no reason to complain, as the use of lash is not automatic, and the attempt can backfire. My philosophy is to not complain about bad rues, but to take it as an opportunity to improve my game.


We're not really here to discuss how we feel about the way it was written we;re here to discuss ways to counter it or minimize its effect.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Nothing? No other tactics to deal with the lash?


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## Insanity101 (Jan 13, 2008)

Most people really don't have a way to deal with it other than complain. Or normal anti-psychic stuff.


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## Argitist (Apr 29, 2008)

Kill/swarm really works. If you're relying on one or two units to get to the enemy and take them out, your in for trouble anyways.

Don't get too spread out, support your own units. 

The reason Lash is so powerful is because it's an unusual power, and you have to think/plan to over come it. *Lash is extremely powerful because it ruins basic tactics, stand and shoot, or run and charge. * Being obvious with your army is possibly the worst thing to do. 

I really suggest playing against it, and strange things like it. They really make you use your imagination to run your army, which in turn teaches you equally unusual and powerful things. 

The best way to deal with anything odd is experience. Play it, play it, and keep playing it.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Insanity101 said:


> Most people really don't have a way to deal with it other than complain. Or normal anti-psychic stuff.


which was why I said what I did about the complaints. My force has redundant units, so if one is eliminated it is not as serious as it is in a force that has no redundant units.


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## stone (May 15, 2008)

shoot it with heavy weapons, or with armies that has bikers, charge them into cc with the lash of submision, does that work?


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

Ive been playing with the lash of submission for a while and it really isnt all that good! certainly not as bad as ppl make it out to be - now 2 lashes is a different matter. as for ways to counter it - kill the user or get him into combat - keep him on the defenive (as the dp is SHOCKING in cc)this stops him moving ur heavy weaps around as ur more likely likely to protect the unit that costs 155 pts than risk being charged instead of charging with support - this lets the heavies then take him down (only t5 with a 5up inv is crap!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Single lash is trivial. He's not going to be able to do anything all that spectacular by moving one of your units about 7" on turn one. Shoot everything you have at the DP and it will go away. Double lash is the real problem because you can do all kinds of things if you can move a unit, on average, 14".

Counters then: The only sure way to prevent lash is to be out of sight or, since lash doesn't work on vehicles, in a vehicle. This isn't great news for shooting armies though, as they tend to need LOS on their targets to be effective.

Fielding a lot of vehicles is a pretty good idea in general. Tanks like hammerheads can sometimes have a great time fighting chaos armies that don't have the shooting to take them out. The trouble is, a good chaos player knows this and will back up his double lash with a respectable amount of AT - obliterators and the like.

You have to expect to lose units to lash. You are going to see your guys dragged off and killed, so prepare for it. If your unit is going to go down, make sure they go down hard. Advance and rapid fire, and consider charging the daemon princes if you think you can survive a turn's fighting - especially with fearless stuff. In many ways the best defence against lash is to get the DP locked in CC during its shooting phase. Do not do this if there's a significant chance of your unit breaking, or you are just throwing the unit away and moving the DP another D6" forward.

Mobility is very important. Yours and the chaos player's. The downside to lash is that you tend to see infantry units bunching up a bit to catch a ride off the lash target. They can get far downfield by all charging the unit, getting a free assault and massacre move. They will spread as much as they can in their massacre, and possibly spread the target unit, but they will still be close. At this point you absolutely have to blow the hell out of them. Target their faster units especially.

Avoid having big tough units. 20 fearless black templars is about the worst thing you could have against Lash. Forget your hidden powerfists and ICs, they are not going to be in the striking zone. You cannot afford to have your unit locked in CC, out of range of where any of your other guys can help, preventing your army from firing and dying in your own assault phase. That leaves the chaos guys free to double lash again in their 2nd turn and that's about the point at which you can concede the game. Far, far better for them to have eaten a 5 man lascannon team and then get shot by your whole army.


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## shas'o7 (May 17, 2008)

Twin-Linked Railguns straight to the Prince. 

Just kill the prince quickly.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

frankly, unless the player is a dice rolling god or has loaded dice your should be perfectly fine. lash is an ok power...its meerly ok. and at average the unit being lashed may move about 6".depending on the skill of the player you may have it work to your advantage anyway. honestly though for me i counter Lash with Lash. tit for tat, you lash my havocs into your prince i lash theirs into my berzerkers.


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## Untitled401 (May 12, 2008)

The way I play lash is have 2 rhinos follow my DP, ones got possessed and the other has either CSM or chosen (usually chosen). After lashing your troops, i use my smoke grenades, deep-strike terminators/obliterator, unload my chosen and wipe out your squad in one move. 

Here's the nasty part about Lash: "Pick a non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by *the chaos player*." Not to mention you can use lash once per turn, every turn and on any target you wish.

So I can squeeze your unit into a tight, tear-drop formation and I toast your squad with all the flamers I got. :victory:

In terms of countering, you dont want your most expensive guys anywhere near the lashing unit be it DP or Sorcerer. People who play lash, tend to lash something that they dont like and try and kill that unit asap because they feel that unit gives them problems. Keeping your units inside vehicles are a good way to counter or try and get a cheap unit to get the DP/sorcerer into CC and cut off the DP/sorcerer's support. As mentioned before, powerfists are a big help.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

In terms of countering, you dont want your most expensive guys anywhere near the lashing unit be it DP or Sorcerer. People who play lash, tend to lash something that they dont like and try and kill that unit asap because they feel that unit gives them problems. Keeping your units inside vehicles are a good way to counter or try and get a cheap unit to get the DP/sorcerer into CC and cut off the DP/sorcerer's support. As mentioned before, powerfists are a big help.[/QUOTE]

That is why I have the philosophy of not having the kitted-out Uber squad of doom that eats hive tyrants and poops leman russes. they are expensive, and a stray ordinance template can turn them into a pink paste. Redundant, identical squads makes powers like lash almost useless, as there is little advantage in moving one or two squads when there are four more like them where those came from:victory:


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

Best way is to use an IG armoured company, however if u have neither money or the inclination to field a lot tanks there are a number of ways to deal with lash including:

Psychic Defences - Psychic Hoods, The Shadow in the Warp, Runes of Warding. Most armies have one form or another though my favourite is the hood. Consider using a librarian if you SM or allying urself to an inquisitor otherwise for one (and get a assassin while your at it). If you Tau however I am afraid to see you are up the creek without a paddle

Vehicles - Lash doesn't affect them so don't be afraid to use them.

Ignore it - If u can't do much about best to focus ur attention elsewhere rather then worry and hope they roll 66 on the perils of the warp test

In 5th however people should note that Lash is not going to be as useful:

A) Lone IC's can't hide behind other units. As most So DPs or sorcerors with it are used solo it should be a lot easier to snipe the bleeders
B) LoS will limit its effective range, u can't use it on what u can't see and your own troops will block LOS
C) Won't be able to use it to targest powerfists and Nobs. With 2" rule going for casualties the current and incredibly nasty tactic of isolating the man with the fist is numbered.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Lord Kronus said:


> Best way is to use an IG armoured company, however if u have neither money or the inclination to field a lot tanks there are a number of ways to deal with lash including:
> 
> Psychic Defences - Psychic Hoods, The Shadow in the Warp, Runes of Warding. Most armies have one form or another though my favourite is the hood. Consider using a librarian if you SM or allying urself to an inquisitor otherwise for one (and get a assassin while your at it). If you Tau however I am afraid to see you are up the creek without a paddle
> 
> ...


Right on, worrying about lash is like worrying about a dread, the fear is more effectiv than the actual capability, causing second guessing and an overuse of force when ignoring it is more effective.


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## TheMotivesOfMan (Sep 11, 2008)

My friend usually runs two lashes in his army against my orks, as well as 3+ obliteraters, plague marines/and termies. Greatest counter to all of that AND lash at the same time? Flash Gitz. Fully kitted out, 8 4+/FnP W2 Nobz with S6 AP d6-1 Assault 2 24" range premeasuring guns are absolutely amazing. Horrendous point sink, but half the time their ap is 2 or less, negating the 2+ termie armour one of them has (the other is a balrog/deamon prince).

The only hard part is getting them into range, with the lash being the same range as the gitz, so now they are mainly a distraction for the lashes and used after the lashes are dead to wipe the rest of his army. Or the lashes both lash the gitz into the range of his entire army, and he spends an entire turn trying to make that squad disintegrate. Usually it works, but he has just wasted a turn of shooting against one squad instead of every other threatening unit in my army (ie all of them)

Basically, to kill two lashes, you need either

A: multiple units (4 to 5 when there are two lashes working together) rushing them.

B: multiple fast units (bikes, jump troops, deepstriking things, squads in transports, etc.)

C: Mass shooting with your regular units/ bad ap units, or take squads that can be assigned the role of fragging the lash in one turn. Example would be anti-tank units or specialist units with low ap guns.

Tanks also work great. Just avoid the enemy's anti-tank, cause the tanks will be high priority targets.

Also with only one lash, you might be able to simply ignore/distract it, but with two lashes, you can't ignore them and have a solid chance of winning.

Just my two cents 

Beware the tide of green.


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## SpinninC (May 24, 2008)

May I be as bold to point out 1 reason why lash has become so effective? And its this thread. Think of all the ways you are coming up with stoping the lash, and genraly speaking how many points and how much time and effort is required in doing this. I mean a libarian is a must in a marine army and thats all you need its just down to who can roll dice better in that situation, but the lash power its self isnt that broken. I have found the best way round the lash is to get rid of your opponents scoring units as quickly as posible because once there all gone the lash is either dead as well caught up in CC or isolated. Lash only works in tandom with another unit in the chaos army. So if you focus on what its going to be used along side its an easyer game to play. Take out what its going to be used along side. Obliterators firing plasma cannons seems to be a favorate atm.

I do know and see every ones fustration on how to beat the lash, but try and focus on the mission your playing and adapt to what ever happens, like you would in every other game you would play.

Chris


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## Shaun_wi (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree with SpinninC. The main problem I see with lash is that people tend to focus on beating it too much and not playing to the mission at hand. I tend to take a Land Raider Redeemer with 5 cc termies and a librarian (not always in the same unit) in most of my lists so lash never really bothers me. It's a pain but a bearable pain kind of like cramp while having sex :grin:


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## Ferik (Nov 5, 2008)

I use a 4 pronged solution I use which consist of having pretty much everything in vehicles.

Having a Librarian (with Termie Armour and SS) in the army.

The only unit I usually have in the open is a Thunderhammer Termie unit (with the Libby) and if they want them closer then by all means bring them closer (thats what I would want any ways) and if they push them back then I use Gate of Infinity in my turn and anouther factor would be they may not use it at all (though unlikely) and leave the scary unit alone. 

Lastly if they do Lash something up and shoot it some and I lose some guys I fail my leadership (combat tactics )and fall back out of assault range.

This usually covers all the angles for Anti-Lash for me at least.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Either I bring Eldar (whoops) or I point 15 lootas at it and maybe a squad of shoota boyz.

Enough paint at a wall.....


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## onlainari (May 10, 2008)

I hope this is useful.

I put kroot in front of my broadsides so he can't lash the broadsides closer. They can't move through my own units see. I generally lose the kroot though and they're pretty important for scoring but the broadsides do kill a lot of stuff, like whatever was going to charge them.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

The best way to beat lash is to go mech. Its not perfect, but in 5e you should be mech anyway.

It should be mentioned that if you opponent is merely using lash to move your units closer so he can assault them, he needs to learn to play. 

Librarians psychic hoods aren't very good anymore (Inquisitor ones are though). 

I really don't see "killing everything that works in tandem with lash" as a valid tactic. His ENTIRE army works with lash. You need to either kill the HQ or mount up and make it impossible for him to lash you.

Also, people need to realize that lash really IS that scary when used correctly. No one attaches a disproportionate amount of fear too it, you can't just ignore it, it is an amazing ability. No unit around will be able to survive a lash followed by a vindicator shot. The ability to move them into a tight formation makes the fact that you can move them closer or pin them just a bonus.

Mount up, move in, blast the prince at close range, and kill him in one turn (not necessarily turn one though). If you have a redudant squad to sacrifice, fine, but I would rather not.


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

stacking 5 Psychic screams backed by 5 Pinning pie-plates is my usual strat against lash. has worked so far for me, not with out casualities in the form of a zoanthrope or two but it's not like he walks out un harmed either so i don't mind losing a few KPs as long as he loses just as many / more


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

What do you plan on pinning? DP's are fearless.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

regardless of fearless or not, its real hard to make a psychic test on LD 5. Psychic choir is the best option for tyranids since they can't go mech.


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## Triangulum (Jul 15, 2008)

Just pretend the model that has it is a tank and hit it with AT caliber weaponry, or alternatively DS/Jump Infantry a squad right at it, make sure that anything that will be in range can take a lot of fire or an assault. For me this means either Ogryn, GK Terminators, Pariahs (snicker), or a DS crisis team armed with fusion and plasma.


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## stvgallardo (Mar 4, 2009)

New here but something doesnt' make sense to me about lash.... The DP can't hide behind other troops but being behind other troops obstructs his LOS? I don't have a Lash DP but that has to be one of those rules to where it is what it is because if he is tall enough to get shot then he should be tall enough to see whos shooting. Just an observation. I like hearing how to counter this though...sounds like it makes for interesting games


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> The best way to beat lash is to go mech. Its not perfect, but in 5e you should be mech anyway.
> 
> It should be mentioned that if you opponent is merely using lash to move your units closer so he can assault them, he needs to learn to play.
> 
> ...


Mech is probably the best way, drop 10 or so tanks on the table and watch the chaos player fret

Otherwise outrange it. 24" is medium range, just hit it with your longer stuff.

Often you will have transported troops to support the lash or vindicators, just pop those and the lash is not as effective. You need to determine what the actual threat of the lash is from your opponent first then act accordingly. Lash requires a support unit, rarely will the unit lashing be the one actually putting on the hurt, so look for this and stop the hammer unit.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The DP can see whatever it can actually see. True LoS, as with most other situations.

You can't ignore lash. It does affect some armies more than others but it is devastating if used correctly. The better the players involved, the more effective lash is. It has certainly won games for me, killing enemy units, saving my own and moving stuff to where I like it to be. Awesome ability.

Mechanising is a good option, though it tends to raise your kill point count quite a lot if you start including 30-40 point vehicles all over the place. It's worth mentioning that transports are a great way to keep your troops units on objectives against lash too. Your opponent will be trying to move your guys off, but can't if they are in a land raider. On the other hand, if you haven't killed the DP on turn 5, what have you been doing?


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

the pinnings mostly just kinda added cool, it's still a S8 shot


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Someguy said:


> The DP can see whatever it can actually see. True LoS, as with most other situations.
> 
> You can't ignore lash. It does affect some armies more than others but it is devastating if used correctly. The better the players involved, the more effective lash is. It has certainly won games for me, killing enemy units, saving my own and moving stuff to where I like it to be. Awesome ability.
> 
> Mechanising is a good option, though it tends to raise your kill point count quite a lot if you start including 30-40 point vehicles all over the place. It's worth mentioning that transports are a great way to keep your troops units on objectives against lash too. Your opponent will be trying to move your guys off, but can't if they are in a land raider. On the other hand, if you haven't killed the DP on turn 5, what have you been doing?


In regards to mechanizing - It depends on the transport - Wave serpents and Devilfishs are a great way of making an otherwise squishy troop choice into something half decent with great mobility. Also given the shear staying power of both of the above-mentioned vehicles.


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## Bobgenrut (Feb 5, 2008)

I think as people said that just sheer wait in numbers and hordes are a good way to beat it, but another good way of coarse is to get mech, which in all seriousness is never a bad thing.


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## SpinninC (May 24, 2008)

Has no one yet considered aiing a drop pod full of stern guard at the DP in question and opening up with 20 hell fire shots? wounding on a 2+ no need to waste anti tank fire on him or worry about what he will lash next, theres only so many 4+ saves you can make. Obviusly if your going for this aproach may I sugest hitting any pie plate wapons with anti tank fire that turn so that your sternguard ont ge turned into a smoking creater when ouropponent decides to unleash his wraith uon them.

Chris


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Make sure you carry enough long-range firepower to end the DP as quickly as possible and cope with one or two units being dragged off and killed. Ork lootas and warbike dakkaguns are my weapons of choice for this task for orks and missile pods, plasma rifles, and all the str 5 ap 5 stuff that tau have a ton of are my weapons of choice for tau.

If possible, try to avoid feeding the chaos 1 unit at a time if your units can handle melee. Choke as many down his throat at the same time as possible.

The best tactic I think is to use vehicles to block LoS if you can. With TLoS it's pretty hard unless your troops are actually embarked, but at the worst your troops are forced to move around your tanks, so they can't move straight forward.


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

Just pummel Him with AT, he's often more dangerous then most chaos tanks at the beginning of the game, so I usually go around thinking of him as a high-priority tank, and just pummeling him with fire. I have done this with my guard, and been on the receiving end of it with my chaos, and it works. 1 heavy wep squad from IG (with LCs and the bring it down order), can cripple a DP pretty bad, send 2 its way and the DP is as good as dead. Another way of minimizing it is using transported troops in its AO, use the transports to screen your units and voila, send you o foot troops to the other part of the board, and if your smart with AT he'll be dead before he gets there.


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

As a heavy lash user myself, I thought I'd contribute:

2 things and 2 things only ever gotten in the way of my Lash Princes:

Multiple shots (from weapons that either ignore armour saves or have a good ap value)

Multiple attacks from a large troop unit

In my opinion Lash Princes are better to target smaller squads as they could possibly kill em off before they even have a chance to fight back.
However when assaulting a large unit, Prince will kill an average 3-4 models before the unit fights back.. and when it does the Prince will be forced to roll a few armour saves.. and he will fail a couple of em..

I know sacrificing a whole unit to take down a prince is not in your best interest.. but you are dealing with one of the most powerful (non character) HQ choices in the game


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Pandorav3 said:


> Just pummel Him with AT, he's often more dangerous then most chaos tanks at the beginning of the game, so I usually go around thinking of him as a high-priority tank, and just pummeling him with fire. I have done this with my guard, and been on the receiving end of it with my chaos, and it works. 1 heavy wep squad from IG (with LCs and the bring it down order), can cripple a DP pretty bad, send 2 its way and the DP is as good as dead. Another way of minimizing it is using transported troops in its AO, use the transports to screen your units and voila, send you o foot troops to the other part of the board, and if your smart with AT he'll be dead before he gets there.


You have the right of it :goodpost:


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

One thing to keep in mind when developing strategies to use against a Lash Prince is that it is a very low cost unit; only 155 points. You are not successful if you tie up 400 points of your stuff for a few turns to kill a Lash Prince. That is the true beauty of using Lash. It is generally a win win for the Chaos player. Either the opponent is so scared of it that they throw a crazy amount of their army at it, in which case they have divided and conquered themselves for the Chaos player. Or they ignore the Lash, which is an exersize in futility, and the Chaos player uses it as he pleases. Or they try to throw a similar point cost unit at the Lash Prince, which he promptly eats and continues on his way.

I guess my point is don't try to ignore it, and don't throw a massively decked out squad at it either. The best possible situation is to have a tar pit squad that can tie it up for a few turns. Honestly I don't really have a decent strategy for dealing with Lash other than sitting in vehicles. What I do know is all the things I see people try and fail at when I use Lash successfully pretty much every game. And if I find myself in a game where Lash can't be utilized, I still have a 155 point flying MC fire magnet. Like I said..a win win =)


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## AngelofHope (Mar 14, 2009)

I agree.

After all, the Lash prince is best used in combination with other units (Obliterators, or Doom-Siren equipped Noise Marines, etc).

Most smart Chaos players won't just rush their Princes forward to go "Lash-Happy", I know very well (I am a twin-lash prince user myself) that it's on the last 2-3 turns that Lash is really useful (moving troops off objectives being a primary cause), at least for the 2/3 of the scenarios (objective-based).

Regarding KP scenarios, the twin lash-nose marines-rhinos with havoc launchers-9 obliterators combo is devastating against any enemy.

For me, Mechanized lists greatly reduce the Lash's effectiveness, as vehicles can't be lashed. Like someone said before, it has a 24" range, which will make the Prince vulnerable to close-range shooting, and his 3+/5+ save isnt anything too great (even worse than a 30pt Chaos Terminator save), so he can die relatively easily.

Just concentrate some amount of AT firepower against it, and it should do the trick after a turn or two. A Land Raider filled with nasty CC Termies will also do the trick as well.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

My second lord is my VoD lord (Necrons, of course). I'll pop up behind his lash with my Immortals, shoot him, and wait. They've attracted an enormous amount of attention by doing that; He'll lash them, probably succeed, and move the unit close enough to assault. My second lord, Revenant, also has a Warscythe, meaning the assaulting Prince takes a wound or two from that during CC. Then, on my turn, I VoD out of assault and shoot him again. That usually kills him, and he spent that vital turn lashing me, taking his focus off the rest of my army. He'll kill a couple of Immortals in the process but since Revenant also has an Orb I'll get some back, and those I don't can be replaced through a Monolith at a later occasion. Yes, a big unit of immortals is more costly than a DP; However, its not something to worry about, as the lash prince being dead is more important. After he's dead, my unit of Immortals, and generally every other foot unit, is that much more dangerous, since he tied up a tenth of his points in an ability he loses in a single turn. Meanwhile, I lost less than half what he spent, and can continue my merry way. Alternately, he might lash me further away, knowing he can't take me in an assault; Then, I just teleport next to him again and shoot him. Simple stuff, really. You can't fight it, you can't ignore it. Your only hope is bring in a third party attacker, which just means I'll teleport away again to a more vulnerable spot. The tighter you try to grip that unit, the more easily it will slide through your fingers. This means either your prince dies, or you devote so many resources to killing my Immortals that when you do finally succeed, you turn around, only to realize that there is a pair of monoliths and a big pile of warriors walking over you.

Thats only if I go infantry instead of jetbike, or run a TS instead of HDs. A full group of HDs will take a lash prince down in two rounds of firing on average (One round if you take the last wound with something else. This is where you use your Immortals in conjuntion for a one-two punch that knocks him flat on his ass before he can even use his power). Regular destroyers do it pretty good too. Heavy destroyers outrange him by a large amount of distance, so I can generally keep the pressure on him even if the first shot doesn't steak him. Lash prince is vulnerable to two things, close range shooting, and long range shooting. Heavy Destroyers laugh at the very concept of a Lash Prince. They can move as far as he can, sometimes farther, meaning no Lash for him. 3 str9, AP2 shots will wipe the smug grin right off that Prince's face, and at only 15 more points than he costs. For all you math cops out there, that 15 points is negligible when you consider the unit's ability to stay perpetually out of range.

People generally agree that Necrons are probably the ones who are most screwed by Lash, since they have no transports to hide in, and there are lots of things you need to keep them close to, most importantly, a Res Orb and other units of the same type. Lash can move them out of orb range, leaving them fairly exposed and vulnerable. Just remember LOS. I usually hide my units behind my Liths until the princes become a non-factor.


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

I have used Lash Princes - both as a single DP and as a 2DP combo. 

I got knocked out of my club comp when I failed 4 out of 5 attempts to Lash my opponent's army ;-( so I can assure you it does happen.

The principal way of dealing with the Lash is not to stroll about - stay in vehicles.

The second is not to overestimate how tough the DP is. As the DP must have MoS he will be a T5, 3+ save (or 5+Inv) model with just 4 wounds. That means anything from a Str 3 Lasgun up can hurt him. He's nowhere near as tough as a tank or even a Landspeeder. A Wraithlord will generally beat him in CC, so will an Avatar, and any number of other CC monsters. 

I don't think you need to use lots of AT shots - anything will do. The Assault Cannon is probably his worst nightmare. 

I don't think you should assault him with termies or even SMs with a PF Sergeant. He'll win the combats and you'll run and he'll probably wipe you out cos he's I5. 

TT
PS I've stopped using Lash Princes because I think the drift to a more mech game and the emergence of SW Rune Priests as leaders of choice means they've probably had their day.


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