# Being Told The Emperor Is Not A God?



## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It seems to be the common consensus that the Space Marines don't think of the Emperor as a God, a theory I'm not 100% convinced about TBH.
Bearing in mind that all Space Marines start out as normal humans who would worship the Emperor as the God of Mankind, at what point in their training and indoctrination would they be told that the thing they have spent most of their life worshipping as a God is in fact a just a man?
A super powered, immortal, brainiac uber mo'fo of a psyker man, but still just a man.
What sort of impact would this have on them, does it cause friction?
And, once they have been told this why don't they seem to carry on with the crusade of the Imperial truth and stand against the Ecclesiarchy?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> It seems to be the common consensus that the Space Marines don't think of the Emperor as a God, a theory I'm not 100% convinced about TBH.


Indeed, even First Founding Chapters, such as the Blood Angels, sometimes worship the Emperor as a deity.



> Bearing in mind that all Space Marines start out as normal humans who would worship the Emperor as the God of Mankind, at what point in their training and indoctrination would they be told that the thing they have spent most of their life worshipping as a God is in fact a just a man?
> ...
> What sort of impact would this have on them, does it cause friction?


The effect hypno-indoctrination has on Aspirants is astounding. It goes so far as to skew their pre-existing natural emotional responses on a number of areas. Sexuality, for instance, is suppressed. Memories of one's youth and pre-Astartes life are suppressed. Emotional responses and responses to a number of different topics, on the other hand, are generated and heightened.

Bottom line, it's brainwashing. Hence, the absence of friction.



> And, once they have been told this why don't they seem to carry on with the crusade of the Imperial truth and stand against the Ecclesiarchy?


Due to said brainwashing, and the ethos it cultivates.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Valid point. Although to my knowledge most of the psychoindoctrination-protocols in current 40k fluff seems to hint that a Space Marine doesn't remembers specifics about their lives prior to becoming Astartes. Although some do have distant, floggy memories of their pasts. Though, in the same breath, surely at least a few have questioned it, seeing as how they are intelligent enough to see normal humans and remember that they were once one of them and surely worshipped the Emperor.

Though I do believe SOME Astartes Chapters do worship the God-Emperor. The Black Templars may be one, but I am no fluff-expert on that chapter. The Iron Snakes of Ithaka do seem to have spiritual leanings as well.

I think what it ultimately comes down to is the individual chapter themselves and if they do or do not worship the God-Emperor.

I've never read one Ultramarines book (although I do plan to), but I would think of all the Astartes Chapters that they would be the least likely to worship him.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Space Marines are taught, from the beginning of their training, that the Emporer is NOT a god. Imperial Guardsmen and the rest of humanity, however, is taught he IS a god.


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

Read The First Heretic (HH Novel)... :biggrin:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> Space Marines are taught, from the beginning of their training, that the Emporer is NOT a god. Imperial Guardsmen and the rest of humanity, however, is taught he IS a god.


That's what i mean, at some point they will be told something different to what they have always believed.
A young kid turns up at the fortress monastery of [insert chapter name]
"Why are you here boy?"
"To serve the God Emperor as an Angel of Death"
"OK, there's one or two things you're probably not going to be too happy about..."

At some point this would lead the Astartes into conflict with the over riding belief that the Emperor is a God. 
Ultramar being a great example, it is one of the best run Empires within the Imperium thanks to the groundwork put in by Goolyman (That's how it's pronounced in one of the audio books I heard a snippet of). 
The Ultramarines, as boring as they are to many, are the exemplar of the Astartes and the least likely to see the Emperor as a god, so, how does this sit with the rest of the population of Ultramar?
Do the Astartes tell the people that they are wrong and that the big E isn't a god?
Surely a Chapter with as much support as the Smurfs could count on wouldn't need to be afraid of the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition. 
How do they feel about sitting back and seeing the hard work the Emperor put in with the Imperial Truth being flushed away for everyone except the Astartes?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

A Space Marine is also linked to the Emperor in a way that the masses of humanity are not. They could be considered his grandsons, there by making them demi-gods. They are related to him by blood (kind of) so worshiping him as a god would mean they themselves are gods to a degree.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

There is many many points to be made, but to start ...

- Not all space marine recruits are indoctrinated into the idea of the Emperor as a god. In fact, in most books I have read that include a recruitment element the recruit is not even aware of the concept of the Imperium. A prime example are the Space Wolf recruits from Fenris. 

- The idea of the Emperor as a god/saviour unites the Imperium. It's also a controlling mechanism like modern day religions.

- Who said the Emperor is not a god? It might not even be the same Emperor that united mankind during the Unification Wars. Maybe the basic mass belief in the Emperor shapes the warp and created the concept of a warp manifested God Emperor. Are the saints not essentially the Emperor equivalent of the chaos chosen champions?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I agree with Wusword. There's also the fact that the Chapter will be teaching these new kids their traditions and ways of thinking and aren't really going to give a crap about what the kid thinks. They also might feel that they are bringing enlightenment to the new recruits, telling them things that will give them a clearer view of the Imperium and what it stood for.
Besides, on many Astartes recruiting world the Emperor worship is quite different to the mainstream Imperial Cult. The God Emperor as a concept will have been fused onto their population's existing belief structure, so the Emperor is the Sun, or is what powers the Burning Mountain or the Winds of the Dead etc. Having these 'primitive' beliefs dispelled might be less of an issue as within the technological environment the aspirants now live in such belief structures no longer make sense.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That's what i mean, at some point they will be told something different to what they have always believed.
> A young kid turns up at the fortress monastery of [insert chapter name]
> "Why are you here boy?"
> "To serve the God Emperor as an Angel of Death"
> ...


The Adeptus Astartes are fiercely independent and seperate from other Imperial institutions. The Ecclesiarchy generally speaking maintains very little influence over the Astartes Chapters, especially in comparison with the rest of the Imperium.

As for the subject of recruiting, nomadic Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes who recruit from wherever they can (and who are generally fleet-based) are probably the Chapters that are more susceptible to the Ecclesiarchy's influence. Their recruits for the most part already being avid worshippers of the God-Emperor.

However those Chapters that maintain and safeguard a homeworld are those that via controlling their homeworld's populations are more capable of retaining their own traditions and individual Chapter cult. In the case of a Chapter who don't worship the Emperor as a god recruiting from said homeworlds, the populations won't worship the Emperor as god* and therefore neither will the Astartes. Thereby removing any chance of strife within the Chapter itself. It's a simple generalisation to make, but one that at least in some cases bears some truth.

*What _GFP_ said above is relavent here:


Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The God Emperor as a concept will have been fused onto their population's existing belief structure, so the Emperor is the Sun, or is what powers the Burning Mountain or the Winds of the Dead etc. Having these 'primitive' beliefs dispelled might be less of an issue as within the technological environment the aspirants now live in such belief structures no longer make sense.
> 
> GFP


That applies to Astartes homeworlds that do actually the Emperor as some form of god. Some homeworlds of course may not worship him as such at all if the Chapter in question also doesn't worship the Emperor as a god and maintains a heavy amount of influence and the will to quell such worship.

Those are just some examples of course though, that's how I see it. It's also aside from the fact that the Astartes indoctrination methods vastly alter the individual's psyche, perspective, Et cetera.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

There are some chapters that do follow the Imperial Creed - take, for example, the Fire Angels from Imperial Armor Vol. 9 who took part in the Badab War. Such is their zeal and their fervous belief in the Imperial Creed that they don't even revere Guilliman as most chapters descended from the Ultramarines do, as they believe it to be a form of idolatry. As a result of their belief in the Imperial Creed, they've won support from the Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle, some of the more warlike members of the Ministorum Synod, and even members of the Ordo Hereticus.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> Space Marines are taught, from the beginning of their training, that the Emporer is NOT a god. Imperial Guardsmen and the rest of humanity, however, is taught he IS a god.


But that's not always the case. The Blood Angels, for instance, do make reference to a _God-_Emperor.




normtheunsavoury said:


> That's what i mean, at some point they will be told something different to what they have always believed.
> A young kid turns up at the fortress monastery of [insert chapter name]
> "Why are you here boy?"
> "To serve the God Emperor as an Angel of Death"
> ...


No, not really.

Yeah, many of these cultures believe in an "All-Father", or "Sky Warriors", or, whatever. At the end of the day, though, the hypno-indoctrination and tutelary engines suppress memories, feelings, etc., and replace them with what the Chapter wants. By the time they get done with the Aspirants, understanding and compliance with the Chapter's ethos is complete and as genuine as possible.



> The Ultramarines, as boring as they are to many, are the exemplar of the Astartes and the least likely to see the Emperor as a god, so, how does this sit with the rest of the population of Ultramar?


Even Ultramar is a society divided between Space Marines and humans. Normal men (save for trusted serfs, who themselves are also probably highly indoctrinated) are not allowed in their chapels, theirs apothecaria, their armories, etc. The Angels of Death, even in such societies, largely remain a mystery.



> Do the Astartes tell the people that they are wrong and that the big E isn't a god?


No, and they don't need to. They themselves use axioms such as "blessed is the mind too small for doubt", and such. Let's not get the Astartes confused with individuals genuinely concerned with the fundamental rights that we, as 21st century people, take for granted.



> Surely a Chapter with as much support as the Smurfs could count on wouldn't need to be afraid of the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition.
> 
> How do they feel about sitting back and seeing the hard work the Emperor put in with the Imperial Truth being flushed away for everyone except the Astartes?


We will hopefully see a Scouring or post-Scouring novel that will explain just that, as the Primarchs disappear and the Imperial Cult rises.

My personal take? The Astartes have always seen themselves as separate from humans. Following Guiliman's reformations, they have also came to accept a role subservient to normal humans. Between those two factors, I imagine they could care less what ordinary people--even Inquisitors and High Lords--believe, so long as their fealty remains true to the Throne.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Go ask 'em yourself people, they're probably hanging out in the local Chaos legion :biggrin:


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

The difference between the Space Marines and normal humans when it comes to their understanding about the Emperor comes from the fact that the Astrates are the grandchildren of the Emperor. They know he is a man because His holy geneseed is inside of them, infusing them with His divine fury. The Space Marines know that they are made of the same stuff as the Emperor. The Space Marines know that they are men, and therefore the Emperor must be a man as well.

Its probably not an enforced doctrine so much as a general understanding among all the loyal marines.


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## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

i wasn't aware until recently that most SM don't belive in the divinity of the Emperor. in that case, why is it they are still fearless? is it something biological, or is it due to the brainwashing mentioned above? if it was biological, shouldn't the Chaos Marines be fearless as well? 

it also seems strange to me that some chapters wouldn't turn pacifist if they don't have any religious promises of an afterlife to convince them to bite the bullet for a regular human that will live a fraction of their own lifetime. wouldn't some simply disband? i realize they are bred for war and heavily indoctrinated, but im sure the occasional SM must occasionally question what the hell he's doing. It seems a space marine has so much more reason to live than a regular human, and so much more time and ability to experience all the universe holds. they could probably just find some uninhabited planet out of the billion planets in the Galaxy, and just do whatever they want, keeping their bolters ready in case the Dark Eldar or Orks start to get frisky. 

i do realize that the likelyhood of an entire chapter going rogue in this manner is next to zero, but one in 100000 space marines must ask questions, surely?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Fearlessness doesn't require religious belief. There have been many ideological fanatics throughout history that showed suicidal courage on the battlefield, whose causes were centered on something else--politics, the state, a warrior's code, etc.

Similarly, lack of religious belief has hardly led to pacifism in our time. Some of the most hardened warfighting elements (and also some of the worst criminals) the Nazis ever fielded were raised by an organization that ostensibly wanted to replace religious belief with a belief in the state.

Some Astartes do rebel... but not to become hermits, or pacifists. Again, the brainwashing and indoctrination they undergo is all geared toward making them warriors. Some do choose different loyalties (Chaos, their own brotherhood), but the drive to fight remains there.

Yes, the Space Marine's fearlessness is due to brainwashing.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> The difference between the Space Marines and normal humans when it comes to their understanding about the Emperor comes from the fact that the Astrates are the grandchildren of the Emperor. They know he is a man because His holy geneseed is inside of them, infusing them with His divine fury. The Space Marines know that they are made of the same stuff as the Emperor. The Space Marines know that they are men, and therefore the Emperor must be a man as well.
> 
> Its probably not an enforced doctrine so much as a general understanding among all the loyal marines.


That is not the case at all. Astartes are all well aware that the Emperor is so far above and beyond even them, he is peerless and his power inconceivable. 

And besides that, many Astartes do worship the Emperor as divine.


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## PapaSmurf124 (Mar 28, 2010)

As I think it has already been stated, a lot of SM recruits come from Death Worlds and Feral Worlds, and many of them don't really know much about the Imperium. Hell I remember reading somewhere that they try to avoid contacting the locals on some feral worlds until they need recruits because they are afraid that the sight of their technology will make them go bat shit crazy


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Heres a good link:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Emporers Champion said:


> Read The First Heretic (HH Novel)... :biggrin:


Yes. This, next to Thousand Sons, is my fav HH book. It really goes into great detail about the Emperor not wishing to be a god, even within the first chapters of the book.
Trust me, it is a fantasic read!


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