# The WORST Warmaster



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Ok, I've just read a thread on who would be the best Warmaster, and Why some guy (sorry if you are reading this, I couldn't remember your name! :cray thought Lorgar would be the best Warmaster. So, on the flip side, I thought it would be pretty interesting to see who you guys thought would have screwed the Imperium up the most had they have been Warmaster! Reasons for your choice please! Let the thread debate commence! :biggrin:


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Who voted Horus? Stating the obvious just because its called the HORUS heresy 

Fulgrim gets my vote, just because his legion is already stuck-up enough, their heads would've been so huge if their primarch was warmaster.


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

my vote goes to angron i because he is a violend mad men


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I would have voted for Hours if i knew he was there (reading fail).

I voted for Konrad Kurze because he's an all round nasty piece of work, even before the Heresy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

How did Horus make the worst Warmaster...?

Its hard to determine who would have made the worst. There is a collection of Primarchs who would have obviously been stupid and irrational choices; Angron, Leman Russ, Mortarion and Manus among them.

As you can only vote once I voted for Angron, for obvious reasons 

Generally speaking the Warmaster had to maintain and possess the following characteristics:
* A supreme Warrior and Strategist.
* An unparalleled Diplomat.
* Have the respect of the Imperium and have a good enough reputation.
* Have the respect and be on good-terms with most if not all of the other Primarchs.
* Have the Influence required among the Imperium's military.
* Be on close terms with the Emperor, and be completley trustworthy in his eyes.
* Have the ambition to complete the Great Crusade and enact the Emperor's will.

All these Characteristics were possessed by Horus, and Horus alone. Therefore Horus was the logical choice for Warmaster.


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## DaafiejjXD (Jun 22, 2009)

Voted for angron... he only possessed one of the traits mentioned above, supreme warrior, and he lacks all the others..

Need I say more?


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Personnaly, my Uncle, pissed, with a Crowbar and a nine-iron, with yet more Carlsburg and a porn mag would make Angron shat himself.

Worst... Warmaster? Dorn. Because as Child of the Emperor mentioned a Warmaster needs to be those things, and Dorn was - as the Siege of Terra proved - more of a defensive, stern and noble Primarch. He wouldn`t crush Xenos populations that defied the Emperor`s teachings, yet did not openly give war, like Horus, or the Emperor did....


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## Starship Trooper (Dec 2, 2009)

bobss said:


> Personnaly, my Uncle, pissed, with a Crowbar and a nine-iron, with yet more Carlsburg and a porn mag would make Angron shat himself.
> 
> Worst... Warmaster? Dorn. Because as Child of the Emperor mentioned a Warmaster needs to be those things, and Dorn was - as the Siege of Terra proved - more of a defensive, stern and noble Primarch. He wouldn`t crush Xenos populations that defied the Emperor`s teachings, yet did not openly give war, like Horus, or the Emperor did....


I disagree...

while what you say may show why Dorn wouldnt be the best warmaster it certinally dosent show why he would be the worst... that goes to Angron I think? But I'll have to do some reading and get back before I actually vote.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I voted Angron, as I believe many more Astartes and Imperial fighters would have died had he been the Warmaster, and he would have also decimated human civilisations found on the great crusade with just a little lee-way...


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## kamikazewatermelon (Jun 12, 2009)

Either Angron or Fulgrim.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I go by Angron (who got my vote), then Konrad 2nd and Lorgar 3rd worst option.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Angron, obviously. He might be able to rule out of sheer testosterone, but several of the Primarchs are stronger than him (one mindfuck from Magnus and hes down IMHO), so eventually he would be beaten up and told to STFU and GTFO.

Everyone else's capabilities are far above his to be called "worst Warmaster" in my opinion. Though Russ and Lion do come to mind, since they are probably the most self-obsessed and unruly Primarchs, one is the hitman and warhound of the Emperor, the other is an emo. Angron isn't exactly unruly, as long as 1, he and his Legion are fed with war and 2, the Warmaster is stronger than him/has earned his respect somehow. For instance, if Magnus were the Warmaster, Angron wouldn't have payed attention to what he said because he was a psyker and in Angron's eyes, a wuss. However, he would have obeyed Russ, since Russ was a warrior just as he and they weren't too far apart in their way of thinking.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Im surprised at these numbers lol. For Roboute Guilleman i mean. That guy is such a jackass. If anything we would have pissed off every single legion into joining chaos. No one liked him. Absolutuley no one.. Im not even talking about dislike and competitive level dislike. They almost hate him. Why should they not? Since the crusade they have been given the easiest campaigns and gained so many victories. Second to Horus.

I really dont think people give horus credit. He was only human, superhuman but he got stabbed by a fricken daemon weapon. That would fubar anyone. So I standby horus being the best.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> For Roboute Guilleman i mean. That guy is such a jackass. If anything we would have pissed off every single legion into joining chaos. No one liked him. Absolutuley no one.. Im not even talking about dislike and competitive level dislike. They almost hate him.


Umm, I don't know where your getting that from? Horus, Dorn and Sanguinius are noted as has having good relations with Guilliman. In fact Horus Rising states that Horus sought the approval of Guilliman as Warmaster. The only Primarchs noted to have not got on with Guilliman that Im aware of is Alpharius and Lorgar.



ckcrawford said:


> Why should they not? Since the crusade they have been given the easiest campaigns and gained so many victories. Second to Horus.


Again, where does it say he was given the easiest campaigns?

And also Horus Rising states that Rogal Dorn had the best record in the Great Crusade (apart from Horus).


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

whats with the Fulgrim hating? Prior to the Laer campaign and the unfortunate dealio in the temple he seemed a pretty solid Primarch, good tactics, good leader, had the respect of most the others etc.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> whats with the Fulgrim hating? Prior to the Laer campaign and the unfortunate dealio in the temple he seemed a pretty solid Primarch, good tactics, good leader, had the respect of most the others etc.


I think it might be that part on that Nid-looking planet where they were sent to save some Blood Angels but ended up asking for the aid of the Luna Wolves to save both asses. The ranking officer there was an ass, but the second in command was a nice guy. Its a shame that his type is a rarity amongst the Emperor's Children.


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> I think it might be that part on that Nid-looking planet where they were sent to save some Blood Angels but ended up asking for the aid of the Luna Wolves to save both asses. The ranking officer there was an ass, but the second in command was a nice guy. Its a shame that his type is a rarity amongst the Emperor's Children.



True the Lord Commander and Lucius were haughty cunts but the Emperor's Children acquited themselves fairly well on the Megarachnid world IMO (Compared to the Blood Angels at any rate, their tactic being retarded). As memory serves they responded to urgent distress calls from some Blood Angels, dropped to the planet in a single wave and sought out the Angels, hardly their fault how shit went. Seemed a bit random to me that Horus reprimanded them, did they even know the 63rd was on its way?

Sure the Emp's children had its fair share of sycophants and arrogent officers but that pretty much goes for most if not all pre-heresy legions neh?


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

Definately Angron. All aggression and very little, if any, diplomatic ability. Whole planets or even star systems would have been wiped out by him on a whim rather than putting in a bit of time and effort to assimilate them and adding them to the Imperium


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## WannabeKurt (Jan 19, 2008)

I think I must agree with Angron being the worst choice, but I think that just about every other Primarch would have been a good choice. Here are some examples.

El' Jonson- I'm not sure WHY everyone calls El' Jonson an emo, but he posses all the traits that Horus had, although perhaps to a lesser extent. And, as far as I know,everyone except Russ (who wasn't really against him- that was the Lion's fault) liked the Lion.

Night Haunter- Yes he did some screwed up stuff. but at the same time, he was committed to the Emperor, was, in his own way noble, and could have been quite the skilled diplomat- reputation preceding him and all that jazz. And though some may not have liked him, there is no denying that his tactics were quite effective.

Lorgar- A skilled warrior, and likely diplomat (he conquered a whole planet with just an army of normal humans), and utterly devoted to the Emperor. what more could have been asked of him?

Russ- Warrior supreme, and, in his own, admittedly rough, way, probably not a bad diplomat. Easier to bond over a beer, I suppose. Loved the Emperor.

Alpharion/Omegron- The two most devoted primarchs, hands down. Do you really think that any of the nine loyalists would have made the same decision? I doubt it, highly. Highly effective too. HAd they had more time (they were only active for, what, twenty years pre-Heresy?) they might have matched the Fists, or even bettered them.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus, Dorn and Sanguinius are noted as has having good relations with Guilliman.


I dont know about before the heresy, but afterwards Dorn and Guilliman had that huge dispute about splitting the legions, and obviously didn't like each other much then...pointing toward what almost was a second civil war.


I chose Konrad Curze just cuz...I dunno seems like he is such a background primarch. Least focused on of all of them.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Alpharius/Omegon cause there is two of them...possibly twice the failure..and there can only be one warmaster so which one would miss out lol...sibling squabbles over who is the warmaster


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> whats with the Fulgrim hating? Prior to the Laer campaign and the unfortunate dealio in the temple he seemed a pretty solid Primarch, good tactics, good leader, had the respect of most the others etc.


Although I don't think that Fulgrim would have been the worst Warmaster, He wouldn't have been a very successful one. He was extremley prideful bordering on arrogant as were his legion. Being made Warmaster would have pushed him over this fine line and made him even easier for Slaanesh to corrupt.

He also wouldn't have had the respect of hardly any of his brothers given his arrogance, and considering the role of Warmaster relied on loyalty and respect - he wouldn't have made a very good Warmaster.



WannabeKurt said:


> El' Jonson- I'm not sure WHY everyone calls El' Jonson an emo, but he posses all the traits that Horus had, although perhaps to a lesser extent. And, as far as I know,everyone except Russ (who wasn't really against him- that was the Lion's fault) liked the Lion.


The Lion himself was arrogant and believed he was the best choice for Warmaster, and his legion being the First legion only reinforced this. From _'Fallen Angels'_, he is noted as not really being able to read men very well. He wasn't even able to conquer/subdue Caliban to his rule, Luther had to do it. He in no way beats Horus as being the logical choice for Warmaster.



WannabeKurt said:


> Night Haunter- Yes he did some screwed up stuff. but at the same time, he was committed to the Emperor, was, in his own way noble, and could have been quite the skilled diplomat- reputation preceding him and all that jazz. And though some may not have liked him, there is no denying that his tactics were quite effective.


The Warmaster needed to be more than just committed to the Emperor. Aside from that Curze was dangerous, the Emperor knew that. Also in _'Lord of the Night'_ (im told, I havn't read it myself) its implied that he had a split personality, one of Konrad Curze a symbol of justice and the other, Night Haunter, a dangerous and terrible vigilante, also Chaos infected (apparently).



WannabeKurt said:


> Lorgar- A skilled warrior, and likely diplomat (he conquered a whole planet with just an army of normal humans), and utterly devoted to the Emperor. what more could have been asked of him?


Lorgar worshipped Chaos on Colchis prior to being united with the Imperium, and was essentially a zealot. He didn't hold much respect from his brother Primarchs and he was reprimaded by the Emperor himself, which turned him back to Chaos worship prior to the post of Warmaster even being created.



WannabeKurt said:


> Russ- Warrior supreme, and, in his own, admittedly rough, way, probably not a bad diplomat. Easier to bond over a beer, I suppose. Loved the Emperor.


Too close-minded in my opinon to have been Warmaster. He was no way near Horus in that regard, the Warmaster needed to balance a lot of talents and essentially act as Emperor while the real one was toiling away in the Imperial Dungeon. Russ didn't have the abilities and skills needed to be Warmaster.



WannabeKurt said:


> Alpharion/Omegron- The two most devoted primarchs, hands down. Do you really think that any of the nine loyalists would have made the same decision? I doubt it, highly. Highly effective too. HAd they had more time (they were only active for, what, twenty years pre-Heresy?) they might have matched the Fists, or even bettered them.


Well them being the 2 most devoted is arguable. The main examples that spring to mind is that they disagree with the Emperor when it comes to 'Pax Imperialis' and they thought that the Great Crusade was chasing unachievable utopian ideals.

That aside though, them being Warmaster was impractical. They had only been active for a few decades and the older, more established legions wouldn't have stood for the decision. I don't really think they would have handled to the post either.

The only logical choice for Warmaster was Horus.



unxpekted22 said:


> I dont know about before the heresy, but afterwards Dorn and Guilliman had that huge dispute about splitting the legions, and obviously didn't like each other much then...pointing toward what almost was a second civil war.


But we are talking Pre-Heresy, not Post-Heresy.



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Alpharius/Omegon cause there is two of them...possibly twice the failure..and there can only be one warmaster so which one would miss out lol...sibling squabbles over who is the warmaster


In that regard I dont think that wouldn't have been much of a problem. Heck if they were Warmaster, normal Alpha Marines would have ended up playing the role of Warmaster on certain occasions.

Alpharius and Omegon both played the role of the Primarch, One at a time. Being elevated to Warmaster wouldn't have been an issue (in this regard anyway!)

and as far as we know they didn't have sibling squabbles over who got to play Primarch today!


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I have heard of Alpharius but who is Omegon?


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## DaafiejjXD (Jun 22, 2009)

His twin, they were one soul in two bodies.
Here are all the details:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Omegon


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

I misread and thought it was who was the best one (fail)

The worst would have been Angron for obvious reasons...

Saunginius would have probably least screwed up the Imperium
Alpharius and Omegon qould have done a good job though because they were the cleverest ones (apart from mabye Magnus) and they understood the problem of Chaos even if it was a dumbed downed version. Magnus knew about Chaos but he was to in love with magic to have resited temptation. The 4 would have gotten to him eventually.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

WannabeKurt said:


> El' Jonson- I'm not sure WHY everyone calls El' Jonson an emo, but he posses all the traits that Horus had, although perhaps to a lesser extent. And, as far as I know,everyone except Russ (who wasn't really against him- that was the Lion's fault) liked the Lion.


I cant imagine why people call him emo as well, maybe a loner and not the social type but definitely not emo. But after reading Descent of Angels and Fallen angels, its pretty obvious he's not fit to be Warmaster as he wasn't the one who organized and united the people of Caliban, it was Luther who did. But he was a great heroic leader filled with curage and honor.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I am going to go for Angron. He was a bloodthirsty butcherer, all his World Eaters were good at was mindless slaughter. As for Lion El'Jonson, I am sure in the first Horus Heresy novel, or the second, that it mentions he was second to only Horus in his ammount of tactical victories. So why not?:grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Catpain Rich said:


> I have heard of Alpharius but who is Omegon?


They are both the Primarch of the Alpha Legion. The only twins among the 'children' of the Emperor. This is explained in _'Legion'_. 



Yog-Sothoth said:


> Alpharius and Omegon qould have done a good job though because they were the cleverest ones (apart from mabye Magnus) and they understood the problem of Chaos even if it was a dumbed downed version. Magnus knew about Chaos but he was to in love with magic to have resited temptation. The 4 would have gotten to him eventually.


I don't think its accurate to call Alpharius Omegon the most clever Primarch, what gives you that impression?

As for there knowledge of Chaos? They had next to none, like every other Primarch. They understood it was a primal and dangerous force within the warp but that was it. Horus knew that (and possibly slightly more), as shown when he calms Loken about the Whisperheads.

Magnus possibly knew just as much as the Emperor did about Chaos/The Warp, as its said in the _'Collected Visions'_ that the Emperor shared most of his warp knowledge with Magnus upon discovering him, and warned him of its danger. Magnus on the other hand believed he could master the warp, which ended which horrible consequences.



dark angel said:


> As for Lion El'Jonson, I am sure in the first Horus Heresy novel, or the second, that it mentions he was second to only Horus in his ammount of tactical victories. So why not?:grin:


I dont remember reading that, the only reference I remember to the Lion having the second highest number of conquests is in the old Dark Angels Codex. However in _'Horus Rising'_ it clearly states that Dorn had the second best record in the crusade.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Id have to say the lion, he couldn't keep control of his own legion, let alone the imperium. And he did a great job of keeping his homeworld in a good state....


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

On the Chaos/Warp issue why is it the primarches were woefully uninformed by the Emperor about the nature of it? Surely he knew a helluva lot more than he told? And letting them go out there ignorent caused the heresy.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I dont remember reading that, the only reference I remember to the Lion having the second highest number of conquests is in the old Dark Angels Codex. However in _'Horus Rising'_ it clearly states that Dorn had the second best record in the crusade.


Hmmm, I might be mistaken. Which is the novel where they say about the other Primarchs? I am sure it mentions it there....I might be wrong, if I can find which novel it is I shall post up a page number. My memory has been off for a while though, all that glue sniffing:alcoholic: Haha


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> On the Chaos/Warp issue why is it the primarches were woefully uninformed by the Emperor about the nature of it? Surely he knew a helluva lot more than he told? And letting them go out there ignorent caused the heresy.


It boils down to the Emperor's Paranoia in my opinion (Which may or may not have been well placed). The Imperial Truth (arguably which was actually a lie) was forced upon the Imperium, including the Primarchs in an attempt to starve Chaos of worship and therefore power. Magnus the Red may have been the only Primarch to know almost as much if not as much as the Emperor about the warp/Chaos.

It goes along the same lines as the Grand lie of Mars, The Emperor manipulated and tricked an entire civilisation thousands of years prior just so he would have war machines and equipment which would enable him to launch the Great Crusade. The Emperor deemed it unnecessary to tell the Primarchs any more than: "There are bad things in the Warp, which can corrupt things" - which was as much as the Primarchs knew. He probably feared that if knowledge of Chaos was well known among the Primarchs/Legions then many would willingly turn from his light and descend into Chaos. For example if Angron knew about the Chaos Gods and Khorne imparticular, given his hatred of the Emperor he may have willingly turned to Khorne, try explaining a Primarch running around killing Imperials to the ignorant masses of the Imperium, without it shattering the Imperial Truth!


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Pretty much what I thought, still it seems like a momentous cock-up for a guy with such wisdom and intelligence. The Imperial truth was a good idea but lying to the twenty sons he created to be his ultimate generals, entrusted with carrying out his plan just seems like a strange mistake for the Emperor to make, considering how well planned and executed everything else was. I'd have at least divulged everything to Horus, him being the person directly below the Emperor and all. Still, from a flavour point of view its cool, makes the Emperor seem a little less 'good and pure'


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

TL;DR, Angron + other stuff.

Angron is the most obvious choice for 'worst Warmaster,' for reasons that others have stated. I think, however, that all of the Primarchs were lacking in certain areas and all would have been undone given the right set of circumstances; I know this applies to all humans, but I feel that each of the 21 had, almost in opposition to their incredible strengths, a glaring weakness, even if we don't know what it is at the moment.
For eample, Fulgrim was martial and proud and wanted everyone to be perfect, that perfection being, for him, the only way to fight and live. However, the Laeran sword exposed a real insecurity about himself not living up to his own ideals, but also that those around him secretly thought little of him.
Mortarion was incredibly tough and implaccable, traits he passed to his Legion. However, he had issues with father-figures after what had happened on the world he had landed on, meaning that when it came to a choice between following his brothers or staying loyal to his father, it was no choice at all. These are just two examples from the HH series, doubtless there are others.
My point is that each of these demi-gods, because of circumstances acting upon these weaknesses, fell much faster than we would expect, with almost no looking back at what had happened and trying to see through it. Maybe I should describe it as a 'blindness', rather than a weakness.
To cut a very (dull and) long story short, whilst Angron was undoubtedly the worst choice as Warmaster, all of his brothers, if faced with the right emotional spurs, would probably have fallen and shown themselves as poor Warmaster. 

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> Pretty much what I thought, still it seems like a momentous cock-up for a guy with such wisdom and intelligence. The Imperial truth was a good idea but lying to the twenty sons he created to be his ultimate generals, entrusted with carrying out his plan just seems like a strange mistake for the Emperor to make, considering how well planned and executed everything else was. I'd have at least divulged everything to Horus, him being the person directly below the Emperor and all. Still, from a flavour point of view its cool, makes the Emperor seem a little less 'good and pure'


Well it may not have been a mistake. For all we know it was the better option to keep everyone ignorant, if he told everyone about Chaos it would arguably lead to corruption of some sort - even if he just told the Primarchs. Its the same tactic that the Inquisition uses in M41, they try to keep as many people as possible ignorant of Chaos simply because if people know about it they will be more tempted and thus more vulnerable to corruption.

The thing is though is that Horus (having no, or only latent psychic abilities) wouldn't have been able to fully grasp the threat of Chaos, and if the Emperor told him it may have only fanned his ambition and made his corruption assured.

Magnus on the other hand was the only primarch who could (and did) fully understand both the dangers and benefits of the warp, and this is why the Emperor told him most if not all he himself knew about the Warp (which Magnus actually already knew and feigned shock at)



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> To cut a very (dull and) long story short, whilst Angron was undoubtedly the worst choice as Warmaster, all of his brothers, if faced with the right emotional spurs, would probably have fallen and shown themselves as poor Warmaster.


Indeed, well said


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## bunji213 (Dec 11, 2009)

well sanguinius gets my vote. and the reason being. he aswell was tempremaental, and possesed taint in his gene seed. (who would attempt to kick horus in the nuts knowing he was a lesser man? only sanguinius has that under his belt. who knows what suicide missions he would have led the astartes on?
angron would have been exactly the same but at least he could have put up a decent fight in a dead end situation... 
(i recon he would even have beaten horus in a bitch slappin contest)


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

bunji213 said:


> well sanguinius gets my vote. and the reason being. he aswell was tempremaental, and possesed taint in his gene seed. (who would attempt to kick horus in the nuts knowing he was a lesser man? only sanguinius has that under his belt. who knows what suicide missions he would have led the astartes on?
> angron would have been exactly the same but at least he could have put up a decent fight in a dead end situation...
> (i recon he would even have beaten horus in a bitch slappin contest)


I disagree Sanguinis should have been warmaster as he is rememberd as by far and away the most noble of the primarchs, and going to fight horus knowing he was going to die was heroic, not foolish. Horus even said it should have been him when he was on what should have been his deathbed on Davin.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

scolatae said:


> I disagree Sanguinis should have been warmaster as he is rememberd as by far and away the most noble of the primarchs, and going to fight horus knowing he was going to die was heroic, not foolish. Horus even said it should have been him when he was on what should have been his deathbed on Davin.


Although I agree with you in that Sanguinius wouldn't have been the worst Warmaster (by a long shot actually). By no means was he more appropriate for the role than Horus.

Horus was the only man for the job, he alone had the right attributes, skills, influence, reputation and relationship with the Emperor to carry off such a role. (Guilliman & Dorn both accepted and said that Horus was the rightful Warmaster, and no one doubted Horus' fitness for the role).

On a side note confronting Horus before the Emperor was not necessarily an amazing feat of Heroism, any of the loyalist Primarchs would have likely done the same. In fact it may have even been foolhardy and reckless, if he had waited for the Emperor or even Dorn they could have confronted Horus together rather than seperatly.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Although I agree with you in that Sanguinius wouldn't have been the worst Warmaster (by a long shot actually). By no means was he more appropriate for the role than Horus.
> 
> Horus was the only man for the job, he alone had the right attributes, skills, influence, reputation and relationship with the Emperor to carry off such a role. (Guilliman & Dorn both accepted and said that Horus was the rightful Warmaster, and no one doubted Horus' fitness for the role).
> 
> On a side note confronting Horus before the Emperor was not necessarily an amazing feat of Heroism, any of the loyalist Primarchs would have likely done the same. In fact it may have even been foolhardy and reckless, if he had waited for the Emperor or even Dorn they could have confronted Horus together rather than seperatly.


In all fairness could he? We don't know how long it took the Emperor to turn up after sang's death nor did he realise I think just how badly he was outclassed by Horus, which he wasn't apparently in physical terms at least as it is stated that even at the height of his power Horus was no physical match for the angel and was forced to deal with him through psycic means. I still think that Horus's own opinion that sang was most like the emperor must be taken into account. As far as I know no one hated Sanguinis at all he was universally loved or at least regarded neutrally by all his brothers except the bitter one (Pertubo) and the angry one (Angron).:good:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

scolatae said:


> I still think that Horus's own opinion that sang was most like the emperor must be taken into account.


What about the Emperor's opinion that Horus was the best choice for Warmaster?!

Aside from that, Dorn and Guilliman both accepted Horus as the right and logical choice.

Horus believing he had failed the Emperor, and on his death bed was simply trying to justify his apparent mistakes by 'passing the buck' as it were. essentially: "I failed, I shouldn't have been made Warmaster, it should have been.... ergh.... *thinks* Sanguinius... yea.. hes a nice guy.."

It seems obvious to me that Horus said that about Sanguinius because he doubted his own abilities to lead when the Great Crusade was over and the galaxy was won:

(Page 202 False Gods)

"He has... the wisdom to rule once that victory is won..." (Horus regarding Sanguinius)
"what is left for a man of ambition when the work is over?" (Horus referring to himself)

Horus was chosen as Warmaster, primarily because he alone shared the Emperor's ambition to conquer the galaxy - “… for the first 3 decades of the Great Crusade I fought alongside the Emperor, and I alone felt the full weight of his ambition to rule the galaxy. He passed that vision to me and I carried it with me in my heart as we forged our path across the stars.” (False Gods Page 201) and “Me? I carry his ambition to rule. While the conquest of the galaxy lay before us that was enough, but now we are nearing the end…. The job is almost done and what is left for a man of ambition when the work is over?” (Page 202)

Infact this was one of the reasons (maybe the main one) why Horus became alienated with the Emperor and Imperium. The Emperor transfered to Horus his unimaginably vast Ambition, but as Horus himself said: "what is left for a man of ambition when the work is over?" 

This is the reason I believe he suggested Sanguinius as Warmaster, because he had the wisdom to rule when the victory was won. But it would seem that Sanguinius didn't possess the ambition required to conquer the Galaxy, at least not in the Emperor's eyes.



scolatae said:


> As far as I know no one hated Sanguinis at all he was universally loved or at least regarded neutrally by all his brothers except the bitter one (Pertubo) and the angry one (Angron).:good:


Well we don't know every single Primarchs relationships with every other Primarch. But its noted that Alpharius and Mortarion (as 2 examples) only ever got close to Horus and no one else. Horus had good relations with every single Primarch, which gave him unprecedented influence and authority, in my opinion if any other Primarch had been made Warmaster they would have relied on Horus for their own practical authority, seeing as he was the one who had the most influence.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Actually Horus and Corax didn't have a great relationship, almost coming to blows before the Primarch of the Raven Guard removed his Legion from Horus' command.

It's stated in the HH: Collected Visions that Horus strangled Sanguinius with his bare hands, if he was such a slouch in combat compared to a wearied Angel then that shouldn't have been possible.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually Horus and Corax didn't have a great relationship, almost coming to blows before the Primarch of the Raven Guard removed his Legion from Horus' command.


I've never heard any reference to that before, wheres that info coming from? 

I remember reading that Corax removed his legion from acting alongside Magnus' Thousand Sons because of his disdain for psychic practise/Sorcery, but I cant recall ever reading that he had a rocky relationship with Horus.

But even so, my point still stands. Horus had the most influence and best overall relations with his brother Primarchs.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I think Alpharius/ Omegon on such a large crusade the overall warmaster becomes little more than a figure head (except in his immediate battlezone) so angrons bloodthirsty tendencies and all out assault tactics still only would have effected the troops he commanded personally (A bit like Afganistan now, lots of different armies all with different training and strategy only loosely controlled by a generalised objective)
Alpharius/ Omegon would mke awful figureheads with their we are legion policy leaving no visible leader to reign in the other primarchs worst tendencies.


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## Heavy Russ Guy (Dec 9, 2009)

A close tie between Night Haunter and Angron for me, but I really have to go with Konrad on this one. Practically because you never, ever, should put an insane serial killer in charge of a whole empire's armed forces, ever. Angron comes close to me because he is too damn angry to direct the Imperial forces in a good manner.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think the Warmaster would have had a more general effect, certainly beyond his own immediate battlezone, allthough one that would have taken some time to become apparent. What I mean is that, a Warmaster who wants balls-to-the-wall assaults and piles of dead 100s of feet high as a punishment for the mere thought of standing against them will pass that on. Envoys and visiting Brass will see what's going on at HQ and be quick to ensure that, when the Warmaster, either himself or his surrogates, visit, they will be seen to be doing just what the top guy thinks is kewl. Plus, when appointments need to be made to the highest positions, then the Warmaster's voice will be very influential in just who takes command. So, if Angron had been Warmaster, it wouldn't have been too long before the Great Crusade became a competition between bloodthirsty madmen as to who could sterilise the galaxy first.
Again, if Magnus had been in charge, then Psykers would probably have become a more central plank of the GC. I'm stopping there becuase my point is already aching from being belaboured.
The personage of the Warmaster set the tone for galactic scale operations, at least in my opinion.

GFP


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## ryan355 (Jan 5, 2010)

i voted Alpharius/Omegon because there both twins and would fight over power


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ryan355 said:


> i voted Alpharius/Omegon because there both twins and would fight over power


Well that is irrational reasoning.

They are both the Primarch of the Alpha Legion, yet do they 'fight over power'? No. It would be no different if the circumstance was that they were Warmaster.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've never heard any reference to that before, wheres that info coming from?
> 
> I remember reading that Corax removed his legion from acting alongside Magnus' Thousand Sons because of his disdain for psychic practise/Sorcery, but I cant recall ever reading that he had a rocky relationship with Horus.
> 
> But even so, my point still stands. Horus had the most influence and best overall relations with his brother Primarchs.


For a while I was worried I was mistaken but I searched through the INdex Astartes articles and it's in the Raven Guard one (unsurprisingly).
Here's a direct quote:



> Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested it's aid many times in his campaigns, and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high. The Raven Guard's records are curiously reticent concerning this period of history, and Imperial historians suspect that the taciturn Corax did not like the more gregarious Horus and found him overly boastful and manipulative. It is rumoured that, on one occasion, the two almost came to blows, and bloodshed was only averted when Corax removed his Legion from the Warmaster's command.


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

ryan355 said:


> i voted Alpharius/Omegon because there both twins and would fight over power


What????? They Shared a soul they would not fight over power.... Any ways i voted Fulgrim because of his disdain for everything that was not perfection. (Everything?)


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

The Night Haunter as catpain rich said He was one messed up individual. I mean where would that lunatic start?

Followed closely by Angron.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angron. He would have just ordered front line charges into every single battle and cost millions of lives. That and whoever he kept around him would be silent for fear of being punched.

The best Warmaster would have been Sanguinius or Alpharius. Sanguinius possessed all the qualities of the Emperor and Alpharius was the smartest and sneakiest of all the Primarchs, nobody could surpass his legion in stealth.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The best Warmaster would have been Sanguinius or Alpharius. Sanguinius possessed all the qualities of the Emperor


There is no basis for that. Horus said on his death bed that Sanguinius possessed all the qualities of the Emperor, that doesn't make it a fact. Actually if you think about it, its incredably unlikely.

Horus himself states (I believe I've posted the relavent quotes in a previous post) that the reason he was made Warmaster was because he felt the full weight of the Emperor's ambition to rule the galaxy and this was passed onto him when Horus was the only discovered Primarch, and that he was the Primarch that inherited the Emperor's Ambition. This is _why_ Horus was made Warmaster, he had the ambition to conquer the galaxy, and thats what the Emperor needed. If Sanguinius would have made a better Warmaster im sure the Emperor would have made Sanguinius Warmaster instead!



Lord of the Night said:


> and Alpharius was the smartest and sneakiest of all the Primarchs, nobody could surpass his legion in stealth.


I imagine other legions could have reached a level of 'stealth' just as easily as the Alpha Legion. The point is though is that they didn't want to, and thought that such tactics were either unnecessary or beneath them. Also what is your reasoning for claiming Alpharius was the smartest?

I can think of two main reasons why Alpharius Omegon being Warmaster would have been a bad thing. Firstly he had only been discovered a few decades before Ullanor and thus was inexperianced compared to Horus for example who had been around for at least two centuries, this means that he didn't have the reputation or influence required to pull off the job of Warmaster.

Secondly, Alpharius believed that the Great Crusade was chasing after an impossible utopian ideal. He believed _Pax Imperialis_ was an impossibility. Putting someone in charge of the Crusade who didn't fully believe in what it was trying to achieve? Not a good idea. 

Dont get me wrong, Alpharius is probably my favourite primarch but as for him making a good Warmaster? No chance. 

I have a question for you. Why do you think that Horus wasn't the best choice for Warmaster?


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I have a question for you. Why do you think that Horus wasn't the best choice for Warmaster?


Well, even though I fully agree with your reasons for Horus becoming Warmaster, I think it's probably because of the whole Horus Heresy thing that happend. :biggrin:


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

but nobody knew that horus would be corrupted 
and before that he was the most suited primach


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Thank you Cain the Betrayer. 



Yog-Sothoth said:


> Well, even though I fully agree with your reasons for Horus becoming Warmaster, I think it's probably because of the whole Horus Heresy thing that happend. :biggrin:


You cannot use the Horus Heresy as a strong criticsm of Horus' initial suitability for the role of Warmaster pre-Ullanor. It would be illogical to.

Horus embodied the Emperor's needs at the time of the Ullanor Crusade for a Warmaster. Horus was the only Primarch that shared the Emperor's Ambition - as noted in _False Gods_, and it was this sense of Ambition coupled with a great level of diplomacy, mastery of war, loyalty, a high level of influence among the Primarchs and the Imperium as a whole that was required. Horus was the only Primarch who held such characteristics and traits. He was the only Logical choice for Warmaster.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Horus embodied the Emperor's needs at the time of the Ullanor Crusade for a Warmaster. Horus was the only Primarch that shared the Emperor's Ambition - as noted in [I said:


> False Gods[/I], and it was this sense of Ambition coupled with a great level of diplomacy, mastery of war, loyalty, a high level of influence among the Primarchs and the Imperium as a whole that was required. Horus was the only Primarch who held such characteristics and traits. He was the only Logical choice for Warmaster.



what about Roboute Guilliman?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

This goes too Child of the Emperor back to fricken 2 page

Im pretty sure half the loyal legions hated guilleman. especially after he turned all the legions into chapters. If i am correct didn't dorn almost go to war with him?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

First of all Roboute Guilleman was full of it. Horus seemed the most humble of the primarchs including his perfect battle tactics. 
I still stick with the notion that the warmaster was the best warmaster. If he hadn't been tricked with forsight into a possible reality and hadn't been stabbed by a daemon weapon he would have still been a savior of humanity.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Guilliman wasn't hated by anyone. As far as I can see, this whole Guilliman teh suxxorz thing is something that started with the dislike of the UMs, and has now mutated and buried itself into the fluff-story of the HH. Now, cos it's cool to dislike the UMs, Guilliman must also be besmirched. 
Guilliman was an organisational genius and driven, if the ruling of a small empire, and a nice one to live in to-boot, is anything to go by. He was, like almost all of the other Primarchs, a diplomat and a warrior unmatched by normal humans.  Hell, to do something so right that his Legion is rumoured to be 10x the size of any other, he must be doing something right; and the places he conquered stayed loyal to the Emperor (I think).
To my mind, he wasn't chosen as Warmaster for the reasons CoE gives. He had eveything that Horus had, but just not that 'extra' something. Call it ambition, call it bloodlust, call it...style. Hell, call it animal magnetism, but Horus was always the golden boy, and for good reasons.

GFP


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Wait a minute. First of all alpharius is known to have HATED guilleman and guilliman hated him too for sure. And of course the other legions hated him. Him and his legion were known to have one of the best battle records from any other legions. Your telling me there was no envy and or jelousy to this?! Bullshit! There were so many other legions! Many of the legions that had turned hated guilliman. Most of all the word bearers.

Not to mention my last post about guillimant changing the legions into chapters. Dorn hated this! In fact there was talk about going to war over this. Which was understandable when your asking a primarch to make his army weaker. In fact during this time primarchs chose sides over this. So to say guilliman wasn't hated by anyone is redicolous. In fact its completley redicolous considering that all the primarchs were prideful, arrogant, glorious, warmongering individuals. so more than others obviously. Its a trait displayed in all legions. Having color schemes that represent their legion seems to be more important then having color to blend in with enviroment and be combat productive. Charging into battle with helmets off. fighting amongst themselves because one chapter took away the others pride. Fighting recklessly. unneeded last stands.... and your telling me the fact that guillimans reputation with his victories did not piss off the other legions and their primarhcs...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

nate187 said:


> what about Roboute Guilliman?


Guilliman has never been noted for his Ambition. Roboute is generally categorised as a brilliant tactician, and have great administrative/organisational skills. 



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Guilliman wasn't hated by anyone. As far as I can see, this whole Guilliman teh suxxorz thing is something that started with the dislike of the UMs, and has now mutated and buried itself into the fluff-story of the HH. Now, cos it's cool to dislike the UMs, Guilliman must also be besmirched.


I think that is true to an extent. But Alpharius as someone said is noted (not necessary to hate) but not get on with Guilliman. Infact Alpharius stated that he simply ignored Guilliman, which doesn't really in my mind at least, mean hate. Lorgar also following his reprimand is noted as harbouring a burning jealously for Guilliman, which may have flourished into hate (at least it certainly did by the time of Heresy)



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> To my mind, he wasn't chosen as Warmaster for the reasons CoE gives. He had eveything that Horus had, but just not that 'extra' something. Call it ambition, call it bloodlust, call it...style. Hell, call it animal magnetism, but Horus was always the golden boy, and for good reasons.


Indeed. Well said. Guilliman wouldn't have made a terrible Warmaster by a long shot, but he just didn't have what Horus had.

*@ ckcrawford:* I think your using the term 'hate' too readily. Just because two Primarchs didn't see eye-to-eye doesn't mean they hated each other. The Primarchs were brothers, they bickered and sought to outdo one another just like any other brothers (although yes on a completley different scale!). As for your reasoning about other Primarchs hating him because he had one of the best records in the crusade (bar at least Horus & Dorn), doesn't that mean that everyone should in turn have hated Horus? Well the only Primarch I can think of that didn't get on with Horus was Corax, the rest loved him.

Also using the example of Dorn not getting on with Guilliman post-Heresy (over the issue of the Codex) is kind of illogical considering were talking about pre-heresy here.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

@ crcrawford: But isn't saying that Roboute was going to be a bad Warmaster, because the other Primarchs hated him for something that happened after the Horus Heresy a bit... um... weird? 

The only two Primarchs that were clearly stated to hate Roboute before the Heresy were Alpharius and Lorgar. The rest is left unsaid, so all we can do is guess. 

Also, quoting Roboute's victories as a reason is kinda strange too. Horus had a good tally and several other Primarchs were jealous of him. It didn't stop the Emperor from making him Warmaster.

I am not saying the Roboute was beloved by all, but I'm saying you're going to far by saying he was universally hated pre-Heresy. There's no indication that he was such an obnoxious individual in the fluff.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Firstly, Horus had many virtues but humility definitely wasn't one of them- Corax saw him as being boastful and manipulative.

Secondly, Alpharius didn't *hate* Guilliman- sure they weren't going to be making sweet, sweet love any time soon but it was never more than a severe dislike and until the Emperor reprimanded Lorgar and told him he should be more like Guilliman there's no evidence that the Word Bearers' Primarch hated him either.
It's never stated that Dorn hated Guilliman, even post-heresy, merely that he vehemently opposed the Ultramarines' Primarch's plans for the future of the Imperium- I regularly think my brother is an idiot and disagree with his ideas but that doesn't mean I hate him!

EDIT: ninja'd by Child


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is no basis for that. Horus said on his death bed that Sanguinius possessed all the qualities of the Emperor, that doesn't make it a fact. Actually if you think about it, its incredably unlikely.
> 
> Horus himself states (I believe I've posted the relavent quotes in a previous post) that the reason he was made Warmaster was because he felt the full weight of the Emperor's ambition to rule the galaxy and this was passed onto him when Horus was the only discovered Primarch, and that he was the Primarch that inherited the Emperor's Ambition. This is _why_ Horus was made Warmaster, he had the ambition to conquer the galaxy, and thats what the Emperor needed. If Sanguinius would have made a better Warmaster im sure the Emperor would have made Sanguinius Warmaster instead!


The Emperor chose Horus because he was the first Primarch to be found, seniority. Thats the real reason Horus was chosen, he had more experience. But he had flaws, that the Chaos Gods exploited. Sanguinius himself had none, he was the true epitome of the Primarchs.

Besides the Emperor's judgement was crappy. The Final Duel aboard Vengeful Spirit was a prime example, all the atrocities Horus had committed and the Emperor still thought good existed in him.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I imagine other legions could have reached a level of 'stealth' just as easily as the Alpha Legion. The point is though is that they didn't want to, and thought that such tactics were either unnecessary or beneath them. Also what is your reasoning for claiming Alpharius was the smartest?
> 
> I can think of two main reasons why Alpharius Omegon being Warmaster would have been a bad thing. Firstly he had only been discovered a few decades before Ullanor and thus was inexperianced compared to Horus for example who had been around for at least two centuries, this means that he didn't have the reputation or influence required to pull off the job of Warmaster.
> 
> ...


The Alpha Legion was unparalleled in their field. They took to a campaign and picked apart the defenders until they surrendered, the enemy took 90% casualties and no Space Marines were killed. This is the kind of thing Horus wanted to achieve, conquest without needless bloodshed. The planet itself was not devastated in open invasion and colonisation was easy. Alpharius perfected what Horus could not.

Just because Alpharius did not have the records of Horus or Guilliman does not mean he was inferior to them. If anything he was better, his legion were more skilled and didn't waste resources in full-scale invasions.

That is a great quality. Horus and the others blindly believed that humanity was destined to be victorious. Alpharius saw the possibility of failure, without recognizing the chance to fail you set yourself up for it. With Alpharius at the head of the crusade things would have gone far better.

Alpharius is one of my favourite Primarchs too, after Konrad Curze and Sanguinius, and I think he would have been a terrific Warmaster.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I have a question for you. Why do you think that Horus wasn't the best choice for Warmaster?


Because Horus was flawed, he believed blindly in the crusade, could not see the necessity behind the Emperor's leaving the crusade and for all his talk of peace with others I dont believe he ever achieved it once. Plus he was groomed from birth for corruption, the Dark Gods clearly had plans for him from the start.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

CK, mate, you seem to be jumping about the place with why Guilliman was hated. From your earlier post, you made it sound like the Primarch was hated. Now, you are saying that it was just inter-legionary differences. In that case, every Primarch was hated by every other and ther respective legion. As for Alpharius hating Guilliman (and vice versa), I certainly don't see it like that. I see Guilliman being dismissive of the AL's method as being pointless and needlessly complex, and as a result being quite condescending to Alpharius. In turn, Alpharius sees Guilliman as being overbearing and stuck-up and is determined to make him eat his words. I don't think he likes him, but hate is going way too far. After the legions turned, well, all of the traitors hated all of the loyalists, so why should we single out the Primarch of the UMs as if he was special? I don't see anywhere in the fluff Guilliman being hated, or even disliked, more than any other Primarch; thought of as stuck-up, aloof and maybe big-headed, but not hated.
As for the splitting of the legions. Dorn did have a huge falling out and, yes, there may have been a time when hate could be used. For the Primarchs who sided with Dorn, again, I don't see in the fluff hate being used. If they did hate Guilliman for this, then they must, by extension, have hated their brothers who were supportive of the split. But they didn't and the fact the the IFs follow the Codex so closely shows that, after the initial crisis, there was no left-over animosity. No, I don't believe hate can be used against ANY Primarch. Except maybe for Angron, but that was his ground-state and so maybe doesn't count.
If there is actual fluff that shows Guilliman being hated by lots of folks, and not just in the legionary rivalry stakes, then I'll be happy to change my mind. Even if Alpharius DID hate Guilliman, it doesn't mean that he is hated by everyone. Corax disliked Horus and refused to work with him, Russ hated Magnus' use of the warp and these feelings would have spilt over into their respective legions; does this mean that these Primarchs were as hated as Guilliman?

TL;DR wall of text and the name 'Guilliman' seemingly repeated every three words. 

GFP


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## Dr Mattheus (Jan 16, 2010)

Voted Alpharius because his name sounds like Elephant. Yuck could you imagine Warmaster (my name sounds like elephant) guy


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Dr Mattheus said:


> Voted Alpharius because his name sounds like Elephant. Yuck could you imagine Warmaster (my name sounds like elephant) guy


Thats an interesting reason for voting Alpharius, which sounds absolutely nothing like elephant.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> Thats an interesting reason for voting Alpharius, which sounds absolutely nothing like elephant.


hahahaha :laugh:


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> All these Characteristics were possessed by Horus, and Horus alone. Therefore Horus was the logical choice for Warmaster.


i believe if im not mistaken that Horus himself said that Sanguinius should have been the Warmaster. though the vampire thing may have been seen as a little weird but hey it would be better Than horus


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Vampire aspect was never really an aspect of the Blood Angels Legion before the Signus Campaign whch was further compounded by the agonising death of their Primarch.

It's amazing what dying men will say as their valediction, the statements made are opinions not always fact.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Plus he was groomed from birth for corruption, the Dark Gods clearly had plans for him from the start.


Spoiler for _A Thousand Sons_:



Of course we now know that the Chaos Gods actually intended for Magnus to be the one that instigated the Heresy, they wanted the Magnus Heresy! Horus was their second choice.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The lion the worst? Really? I would put him in the top three, just behind hours and Poppa Smurf.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm voting for Horus. I mean he could have hardly done a worse job could he? Even when he was Loyal his performance wasn't exactly steller IMO. 

I would give the job to Guilliman, just because he seems to be the only true Altruist in the bunch and isn't fettered with that daft "Fighting to be the best" thing Horus has.


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

How has The Night Haunter got so many votes for beein the worst? Hes a Badass!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Emporers Champion said:


> How has The Night Haunter got so many votes for beein the worst? Hes a Badass!


Because he is stark raving mad! :laugh:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah being an grimly efficient monster, with a penchant for terror tactics doesn't really lend itself for organising an array of Legions and Primarchs with vastly different skill sets.


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

He is choas! Hes ment to be mental, and a pycho killer!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And I don't disagree that he fulfils that role admirably, but as the leader of the myriad military branches of a growing Empire...not one he'd be suited for.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Everyone is hating on Angron... has anyone ever tried to look and see Angron's positive sides? Angron is a Primarch! he has tactical sense and he isnt always mad, just hot headed. Also his downfall is not being mad all the time, but that he was very Rash and Impatient. He needed results right away, and he was Head strong so he always liked to do things himself and didnt depend on others to get things done. I'm not saying he is a good choice for Warmaster but he also is not the worst choice. Just saying he is mad and angry and likes to punch and kill things is not good grounds if your just stating his negative side. His tactical sense can be seen through not only his many battles but through his first time experiences were as a young primarch before the emperor he managed to fight off whole armies with just a rag tag bunch of gladiators. He's pissed at the Emperor because the emperor did not help his brothers in arms when he was found and I would be pissed too. ( Teleporting me out of a fight were i am fighting with my brothers and watching them get slaughtered afterwards does not give me happy feelings towards anyone)


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

But to get back on Topic i would say Mortarion would be the worst because he has none of the above qualities or has a lacking of them compared to the other primarchs. You hardly ever hear his military record being praised though i doubt he had one worth mentioning.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

1) you can't use the fact Angron was a Primarch as a plus point- all the people in the poll were Primarchs!
2) Angron was a Primarch who made war in a very singular way- pure agression and brutality were his hall marks, Mortarion may have favoured infantry but he certainly had more flexibility than the World Eaters!


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

1.) i was using that as a fact that instead of Angron just being one pissed off gorilla, he still had some of the primarch qualities that made him a leader of his legion ( it is also noted that Kharn was the cool head of the legion who was supposed to calm Angron, which happened rarely. lol and now look at him) 

2.) yes, his battle doctrine was rather focused on head on brute strength assaults but he did employ tactics when they were needed. 

Mortarion's record is questionable though and seeing as he did not interact with the other primarchs that much since he was kind of a loner, his charisma was lacking.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm sorry but I don't see angron using a brilliantly planned and detailed stealth strike anytime soon.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Lol no, he detests Stealth and covert means of warfare. its the polar opposite of both his battle tactics and his personality. That kind of stuff is for Alpharius and yes i do believe Alpharius is a kick ass battle tactician and overall great commander and one tricky primarch. He can run circles around the Inquisition. and No one knows if it was him or his brother that were killed by Guilliman or that they are dead to begin with. everything is a illusion or a lie.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

i voted head smurf, hes way to busy doing admin! and buffing up his blue armour


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Emporers Champion said:


> How has The Night Haunter got so many votes for beein the worst? Hes a Badass!


Because when you get right down to it Night Haunter was an object of terror and nothing more. On the field of battle he was outstripped by nearly every single one of his brothers. 

He wasn't as good a general as Horus, Lion or Guilliman.
He wasn't as good a fighter as Angron, Sanguinius, Russ or Fulgrim.
He wasn't as good at covert fighting as Corax, Alpharius and Omegon.
He wasn't as good at the wibbly wobbly psychic stuff as Magnus.

Why would you want Kurze as anything other than an attack dog?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Why would you want Kurze as anything other than an attack dog?


Well at the end of the day, thats what all the Primarchs were really.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

"wibbly wobbly pyshic stuff" fucking classic!

im pretty sure he was a cracking covert fighter! anybody called night haunter surly knows his way around stealth 101?!


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How did Horus make the worst Warmaster...?
> 
> Its hard to determine who would have made the worst. There is a collection of Primarchs who would have obviously been stupid and irrational choices; Angron, Leman Russ, Mortarion and Manus among them.
> 
> ...


Well, almost causing destruction of humanity is quite a big reason Horus can hardly be surpassed by anyone else. Sure he does posses the right abilities to be the best warmaster, but then again he also had the traits that led him to betraying imperium, which did more damage than a few lost battles, that other warmasters would have done if they were worse than him.

And ironicaly this also could make Angron the best warmaster - maybe chaos god efforts to corrupt him would lead to "wtf is this KILL!" response from him without much of other thought.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

World Eater XII said:


> "wibbly wobbly pyshic stuff" fucking classic!
> 
> im pretty sure he was a cracking covert fighter! anybody called night haunter surly knows his way around stealth 101?!


Meh i doubt it and even then its a case of anything you can do Corax and Alpharius do better.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Well, almost causing destruction of humanity is quite a big reason Horus can hardly be surpassed by anyone else. Sure he does posses the right abilities to be the best warmaster, but then again he also had the traits that led him to betraying imperium, which did more damage than a few lost battles, that other warmasters would have done if they were worse than him.
> 
> And ironicaly this also could make Angron the best warmaster - maybe chaos god efforts to corrupt him would lead to "wtf is this KILL!" response from him without much of other thought.


Yes well its easy to say that in retrospect, but at the time Horus was the obvious choice. Most of the Primarchs accepted he was the best choice, and the Emperor obviously did as well.

If Angron was made Warmaster the Imperium would have fallen apart at that point, do you think all of his brothers would have accepted him as the logical choice? (as most did with Horus). You may well have had a future uprising occuring simply because of the wrong choice of Warmaster, remembering how pissed off El'Jonson and Perturabo (as two examples) were when Horus (the obvious choice) was chosen. 

How would Horus (a man of ambition) have reacted if Angron was chosen? You probably would have still had a _Horus_ Heresy, but based around the Chaos Gods slagging off the Emperor for being an idiot and choosing Angron, Horus probably still would have fallen to Chaos and used his influence to instigate a galatic scale rebellion. Heck Angron as Warmaster, would have still probably joined Horus considering he hated the Emperor so much.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Angron is obviously not the best choices for Warmaster...... that much is relevant... but this thread is about the worst warmaster, NOT the Best Warmaster!!! omg guys, can topics ever stay on topic? lol i just think he wouldnt be the worst choice. 

My worst warmaster list:
1. Mortarion
2. Magnus
3. Konrad Cruze


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well my worst Warmaster(s) are:
1. Konrad curze
2. Angron
3. Lorgar


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I disagree that magnus would be in the bottem 3. 
My list would be as fallows:
1) Angron
2) Cruze

Under either of these the imperium would crumble in a matter of years.

EDIT: ya add lorgar in there. Nothing would get done.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Why do you say the Imperium will crumble? The Job of Warmaster is War!! not running the Imperium. thats the Emperor's job. there's no administrative job shit that goes with Warmaster except for regular military actions and duties that come with being commander such as logistics, army supplies, numbers, resources and stuff like that and even the Primarchs dont deal with all of that. So if thats why you put Angron on the bottom of Warmaster then your seriously mistaken, he knows how to run his legion so i'm pretty sure he can run whole armies more. I agree with Conrad because he is a bit schitzophranic and not mentally stable for the job and i think he would agree with me on that.  
Magnus is on my bottom because:
1. he's a psyker so most of the primarchs didnt like that.
2. He spends alot of time not thinking about war unlike the other primarchs.
3. He was known to be a rather impetous and wild commander
4. primarchs didnt trust him which his warp affiliation.
5. i havent heard much when it comes to his battle tactics and skills.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He could make war better than either of them and could deal with the complexities. Angron most certainly couldn't deal with the complexities of the thing and Conrad is too brutal, the job of the warmaster if to use the other primarchs in the best way they can be used. Angrons orders would be as follows: "CHARGE!" and if that failed "CHARGE AGAIN!" He would simply fail and the warmaster runs all aspects of the crusade which means supply lines reconstruction efforts ECT. Angron would fail on an epic scale, in other words just because he was a good fighter he wouldn't make a good warmaster. If we were just going for tactical skill Poppa Smurf or the Lion may have been chosen over Horus.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Magnus is smart but he lacks in his relationship with the Primarchs which you stated is a need for a primarch to be Warmaster. and Angron is not about yelling charge and being some idiotic buffoon. apparantely you have not studied up on him enough to know anything else besides that and Angron would not need to manage the Warmaster duties by himself. he would simply have others do all the tedious details while he thinks about the next conquest. Also Angron is known to have MANY victories during the Great Crusade, but its his tactics and savage brutality which were questionable and disliked. he could lose alot of men, but instead of taking a different route he just didnt care and would simply throw more men in until the battle was won. Now if he had limited resources and he knew the battle would take more planning he would not be a idiot about it and actually think. its only when he's pissed that he doesnt have time to think about anything.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Magnus is smart but he lacks in his relationship with the Primarchs which you stated is a need for a primarch to be Warmaster. and Angron is not about yelling charge and being some idiotic buffoon. apparantely you have not studied up on him enough to know anything else besides that and Angron would not need to manage the Warmaster duties by himself. he would simply have others do all the tedious details while he thinks about the next conquest. Also Angron is known to have MANY victories during the Great Crusade, but its his tactics and savage brutality which were questionable and disliked. he could lose alot of men, but instead of taking a different route he just didnt care and would simply throw more men in until the battle was won. Now if he had limited resources and he knew the battle would take more planning he would not be a idiot about it and actually think. its only when he's pissed that he doesnt have time to think about anything.


But if he didn't do all the duties of a Warmaster then that would automatically make him an unsuitable candidate, and it's not like Angron was particularly popular himself- you never hear that he was particularly friendly with any other Primarch whereas at least Mortarion was close with Horus and Night Haunter, and Magnus certainly had a better relationship with the majority of Primarchs (with the notable exceptions of Russ, Dorn and Corax) than the Red Angel.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I dont see Horus going through EVery single duties of Warmaster continously or any other warmaster for that reason. Angron could commit to some duties of warmaster and was maybe average at other duties, though he did excel at the main ones. It is not stated anywere that Angron was not smart. i have not read anything saying that he was dumb, or that he lacked tactical sense or administrative skills. He favoured Brotherhood and comradeship highly, and viewed weaklings with distaste. He was one quick to anger and was rash and impatient. Horus understood Angron so they were friends somewhat. Angron respected the Strong, so most of his brother i'm guessing he would respect. ( except Fulgrim. lol) He was a good warrior and his Headstrong personality makes him a independant figure not really needing help from anyone and that usually means he would be at faults with alot of people's opinions.

Even though he sounds like he's only good for front line leadership command, what he lacked was a speciality in politics and lacked charisma. Aka he didnt know how to talk to people in the right way without sounding arrogant or to proud or hostile. He may not be the most influential primarch, but he instilled fear and respect in those who have witnessed his abilities and none have ever questioned his leadership ( or they were personally killed if they ever tried to defy authority). He may not be the best choice, but he is also not the worst choice. I would like to see if anyone else can see past his anger management problem and see Angron in a different light.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> I dont see Horus going through EVery single duties of Warmaster continously or any other warmaster for that reason. Angron could commit to some duties of warmaster and was maybe average at other duties, though he did excel at the main ones. It is not stated anywere that Angron was not smart. i have not read anything saying that he was dumb, or that he lacked tactical sense or administrative skills. He favoured Brotherhood and comradeship highly, and viewed weaklings with distaste. He was one quick to anger and was rash and impatient. Horus understood Angron so they were friends somewhat. Angron respected the Strong, so most of his brother i'm guessing he would respect. ( except Fulgrim. lol) He was a good warrior and his Headstrong personality makes him a independant figure not really needing help from anyone and that usually means he would be at faults with alot of people's opinions.
> 
> Even though he sounds like he's only good for front line leadership command, what he lacked was a speciality in politics and lacked charisma. Aka he didnt know how to talk to people in the right way without sounding arrogant or to proud or hostile. He may not be the most influential primarch, but he instilled fear and respect in those who have witnessed his abilities and none have ever questioned his leadership ( or they were personally killed if they ever tried to defy authority). He may not be the best choice, but he is also not the worst choice. I would like to see if anyone else can see past his anger management problem and see Angron in a different light.


That’s the thing; his anger is what makes him last on the list. Someone who is prone to such violent outburst and intense fits of rage cannot perform the tasks required by a warmaster. If you are angered by the slightest retort you can't accept criticism you will fail. As to his intelligence, we are not saying he was unintelligent we are saying the fact that he s prone to such violent fits of rage that all tactical sense leaves him and you are left with nothing more than a giant berserker is a horrible trait for a warmaster. Also, he would lack any kind of consistence in his leadership. At the very least Conrad was consistence and under his leadership his planet prospered........ even if the only reason it did was because every last citizen was scared shitless by the thought of him.

Horus did not perform every little task but he managed it all on that grand scale, something that I doubt Angron would be capable of.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Angron was not always in a pissy mood. Thats what Kharns job was. to help calm his primarch. He is not 24/7 lets get mad and kill something and not everything pisses him off. And in a fight his anger actually helps him by giving him strength. Here's a descipt of Angron i found by the user Gore Hunter: Angron fought innumerable campaigns alongside Horus and deeply respected his ability as a great military tactician and his sense of honor and pride as a warrior. Angron could manage but not as well as Horus and at least some help would be required. So your saying his only true fault is his Anger problems? haha. well i'm glad to say that though he does have problems, they do not occur often enough or a whole lot to hamper his ability as a military commander. His legion is an example by the fact that there still alive, active and effective and conquering worlds!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Simple fact of the matter is....... he is a horrible politician, he isn't all that adept a tactician, he isn't exactly innovative, he isn't well liked by the other primarchs and he is not all that good at micro-managing...... all that added together = crap warmaster. OH.... and incredibly easy to predict on the battle field, extremely inconsistent and you really can't really on him. Add that into the equation = worst possible primarch.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Angron would just do what he did on the istavaan betrayal! charge down frontal assault rape and pillage then home for some local brew!


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

> "After being enslaved and nursed back to health, Angron was brought to the planet's capital1 called Desh’ea.2 There, he was forced into the techno-gladiatorial arenas, where he proved to be undefeatable and a fan-favorite. Several times he tried to lead his fellow gladiators in revolt, and each time failed.
> 
> Yet once, he succeeded and after butchering his way through the crowd he led his rag-tag army into the mountains of the planet, where he lived for several years. The civilized cities sent armies to destroy Angron, but they were all obliterated. "


Thats angron, pretty effective leader if you ask me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

On the topic of Angron, yes he is intelligent and a great leader (hes a Primarch), but I still hold that he would have been one of the worst, if not the worst choice of Warmaster.

As an example imagine if it was he who got the news of the Council of Terra's bureaucratic nonsense, establishing tithes and what not, Horus didn't react well - Angron probably would have just ignored it. 

The role of Warmaster was a bridge between the Astartes Legions and the Human inhabitants of the Imperium, one that would have not been suited to Angron at all.

Corax muses in _Ravens Flight_ why Angron could have possibly turned traitor, and concluded that it was probably for the promises of Glory and Conquest but mostly because of freedom from restraint. Freedom. That is what Angron wanted, Freedom from the Emperor's bonds, Freedom from the Imperium, Freedom to do as he wished. Becoming Warmaster would have just tied him up further in Imperial bonds and restrictions. (Take into account as well that initially Angron refused to even take command of his Legion, he didn't want anything to do with the Emperor or Imperium)



XxDreMisterxX said:


> The Job of Warmaster is War!! not running the Imperium. thats the Emperor's job. there's no administrative job shit that goes with Warmaster except for regular military actions and duties that come with being commander such as logistics, army supplies, numbers, resources and stuff like that and even the Primarchs dont deal with all of that.


Effectively though the Warmaster is running the Imperium, acting as the Emperor's regent (alongside the Council of Terra). He is the executive branch where as the Council of Terra is the legislative branch if you will, he is the one that has to enact and enforce the laws and bureaucracy.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> or that he lacked administrative skills.


Which in itself is enough to disqualify him from the position of Warmaster.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> He favoured Brotherhood and comradeship highly, and viewed weaklings with distaste. He was one quick to anger and was rash and impatient.


Again that is another strong reason why he shouldn't have been Warmaster, he respected the stong and despised the weak... Well that wouldn't have made him a good arbitrator of Astartes/Imperial relations. He would have despised the Council of Terra and their laws that they were forcing on the Primarchs/Legions, even though they were put in place by direct command of the Emperor himself.

He was quick to anger, and was rash and impatient? Three more reasons why he shouldn't have been Warmaster.

(By the way, some great debates going on here guys - keep it up! everyone take some rep!! :biggrin


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On the topic of Angron, yes he is intelligent and a great leader (hes a Primarch), but I still hold that he would have been one of the worst, if not the worst choice of Warmaster.
> 
> As an example imagine if it was he who got the news of the Council of Terra's bureaucratic nonsense, establishing tithes and what not, Horus didn't react well - Angron probably would have just ignored it.
> 
> The role of Warmaster was a bridge between the Astartes Legions and the Human inhabitants of the Imperium, one that would have not been suited to Angron at all.


 You can never know that, ive been reading alot of roman history these days and it mentions alot of such political situations, one thing i noticed that its never certain how person can turn out. 

Some nobles were given high posts even if they were not fit for them at all, they changed and become very good at it in the end, some were very good at it but in the end got corrupted/degraded and it ended in disaster.

It might just be possible that by getting more duties and responsibilities angron could have changed his views and this, combined with his agressiveness, could have made him an effective political connection between the new worlds and Terra - he might have just blown up something to point out what tithes are gona do or did some different daring thing.

In any way i agree that Angron would not be well suited for the beaurocratic work that Warmaster does, and yes, it was mostly that for Horus in books. For this reason i do think Angron could have never become Warmaster - too many people wouldnt agree, but i say IF he was one


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## Muffinman (Aug 31, 2009)

I voted for Alpharius/Omegon, not because they're twins but because they were the youngest of the Legions so therefore they wouldnt have had much experienced. If they had had the experience of the other legions i think they might have actually been considered for Warmaster except for their very secretive nature.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would have said Angron. He might have actually been a good politician. lol "talk softly but carry a big stick."- Teddy Roosevelt in Angrons case "talk loudly and carry a big axe." hahaha. 

I think angron's major problem was his discontent with the emperor. I think that the emperor knew he pretty much pissed Angron when he led all his gladiator brethern die. So in my opinion I think the emperor basically knew that Angron would always live with that sense of anger and regret for the emperor. In that sense you can't have a warmaster who is discontent with you


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I'm sorry but I don't see angron using a brilliantly planned and detailed stealth strike anytime soon.


Space Marines, Stealth strike, you would have to be a fool not to see a eight foot tall brightly colored super human warrior trying to sneak up on you... and jumping in on them with jump packs aint stealth ether, they make a lot of noise, how would space marines make a stealth attack? by the time the SM are there the time for stealth has passed!
and i know space marines do attack with stealth, i am just saying that it diffenitly wouldn't be the first attack option.

you obiously didn't get a verison chocolate touch.... fool.
wana hang and paint tomorrow Gen?

and Dre you love and defense of angron does your name credit... but that does not change that angron had implants in his brain which essentially made his anger ten times greater, and the fact that he can switch between pissed off foaming at the mouth stark raving mad insanity, to a slightly not so stark raving made insanity does not a politician make, he would have been second to worst warmaster, besides being warmaster would have kept him away from leading the assaults personaly everytime, and well dre face it, he loved doing so. the first choice being night haunter, as killing every petty criminal on the new worlds would be counter productive if your building an empire... and well he is just out of his freaking mind. "sir, i'd keep an eye on curze, cause he has been talking in his sleep, and i got to tell you... its some scary stuff."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't know if I can G, but SMs can pull off stealth attacks.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I don't know if I can G, but SMs can pull off stealth attacks.



yes..... stealth attack... there weapons are not built for stealth, and i do not believe they have giant silencers for their bolters.......


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually they do. Also when the battle is entered, stealth is not required. lol


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay I think its safe to say that the overall winners to this are Vulkan, Dorn, and Ferrus Manus. I would add Perturabo just because some random dude just gave him one vote. But I guess we can go with the first three. I would say out of those three I would vote Dorn, Vulkan, and then Ferrus Manus. Im just saying that if those were the top three dogs we could vote for I would say Dorn would probably be my vote for favorite but that would be an interesting way to vote for a primarch based on which primarch is least hated. But hey Perturabo is up there. I'd vote for him before dorn. lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Helvron said:


> Space Marines, Stealth strike, you would have to be a fool not to see a eight foot tall brightly colored super human warrior trying to sneak up on you... and jumping in on them with jump packs aint stealth ether, they make a lot of noise, how would space marines make a stealth attack? by the time the SM are there the time for stealth has passed!
> and i know space marines do attack with stealth, i am just saying that it diffenitly wouldn't be the first attack option.


Tell that to the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard (to name two). Stealth doesn't specifically mean being quiet and using silenced weapons. Hit & run attacks, sabotage, operatives etc would fall under this category as well.



Helvron said:


> the first choice being night haunter, as killing every petty criminal on the new worlds would be counter productive if your building an empire... and well he is just out of his freaking mind. "sir, i'd keep an eye on curze, cause he has been talking in his sleep, and i got to tell you... its some scary stuff."


Curze didn't go around killing all the petty criminals on new worlds conquered, in fact the mere rumour of his presence was enough to 'rehabilitate' people.

He was the monster the Emperor needed.



ckcrawford said:


> Okay I think its safe to say that the overall winners to this are Vulkan, Dorn, and Ferrus Manus. I would add Perturabo just because some random dude just gave him one vote. But I guess we can go with the first three. I would say out of those three I would vote Dorn, Vulkan, and then Ferrus Manus. Im just saying that if those were the top three dogs we could vote for I would say Dorn would probably be my vote for favorite but that would be an interesting way to vote for a primarch based on which primarch is least hated. But hey Perturabo is up there. I'd vote for him before dorn. lol


This thread is about the _worst_ Warmaster, not _best_. Therefore Angron 'wins' the poll with the most votes. It doesn't mean that because Vulkan, Dorn and Ferrus Manus have the least votes, people think they would be the best Warmasters, that is a major misinterpretation of data.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

LOL at angrons failed hopes at being a decent warmaster


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This thread is about the _worst_ Warmaster, not _best_. Therefore Angron 'wins' the poll with the most votes. It doesn't mean that because Vulkan, Dorn and Ferrus Manus have the least votes, people think they would be the best Warmasters, that is a major misinterpretation of data.


Do not fear, I was only saying this would be a interesting way to chose the best Warmaster. Probably not a very good way but a way non the less.k:


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Tell that to the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard (to name two). Stealth doesn't specifically mean being quiet and using silenced weapons. Hit & run attacks, sabotage, operatives etc would fall under this category as well.


Hit and Run attacks do not fall under stealth, hit and run would fall under harrasment tactics in my book.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Curze didn't go around killing all the petty criminals on new worlds conquered, in fact the mere rumour of his presence was enough to 'rehabilitate' people.
> 
> He was the monster the Emperor needed.
> .


i was being facetious.... i know he didn;t stop off at every new world to kill off criminals... if it wasn't apparent (which i know it wasn't) i really dont like him...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Harassment tactics could fall under the category of stealth.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Harassment tactics could fall under the category of stealth.


i disagree.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If they employ stealth at any point is could be considered a stealth tactic. IE a surprise attack.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I can`t help but question why Angron has been voted the worst Warmaster. Surely, in a Galaxy full of the lost branches of humanity, unwilling to join the Emperor`s so called 'righteous' cause, Xenos intent upon humanities destruction, and rebels within conquered worlds, you would want an overall leader, who uses sheer-bloody-mindedness as his primary weapon. 

And then, what is it with The Night Haunter with his second place? After Angron I would want Curze, his tactical genius, and other mercilless traits. Though, I doubt it would be in his nature to assume the overall picture, concentrating perhaps more on singular conflicts, not taking command of the entire Crusade, as the title of Warmaster would require.

But, regardless, I doubt _any_ Primarch would have been a fitting Warmaster. The political ties and the sheer weight of other pointless matters, out-side of war, which - lets face it war is what the Astartes were created for - would irritate and hinder any of the 18. After Ullanor, the Crusade would probably have devolved into bickering and jealous rivalries - Though perhaps not the Virus Bombing of Istvaan III


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> I can`t help but question why Angron has been voted the worst Warmaster. Surely, in a Galaxy full of the lost branches of humanity, unwilling to join the Emperor`s so called 'righteous' cause, Xenos intent upon humanities destruction, and rebels within conquered worlds, you would want an overall leader, who uses sheer-bloody-mindedness as his primary weapon.


I don't think you would. The whole point of the Great Crusade (at least on the surface) was to bring enlightenment to the Galaxy not to merely shed its blood and wrap it in chains of oppression.

Angron was fantastic at what he did, but what he did was not what the role of Warmaster was created for.

And yes, your point about needing an incredable warrior and conqueror to tackle a galaxy full of hostilities is entirely valid, but all of the Primarchs fitted into that description, not just Angron.



bobss said:


> And then, what is it with The Night Haunter with his second place? After Angron I would want Curze, his tactical genius, and other mercilless traits. Though, I doubt it would be in his nature to assume the overall picture, concentrating perhaps more on singular conflicts, not taking command of the entire Crusade, as the title of Warmaster would require.


The same applies again.

Night Haunter was a monster. He was the scapegoat of the Crusade, the monster that the Emperor needed, but couldn't have been seen to have been himself. Curze was the monster needed to destroy monsters, he became the evil needed to destroy evil.

This is the role Night Haunter played during the Crusade, the Emperor's (secretly) sanctioned butcher and fear-mongerer. He was never intended to be Warmaster, and would never have made an effective one by the time Ullanor came about.


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