# Astartes Rivalries and Hatreds?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone. 

**There may be spoilers throughout this post depending on your having read certain Horus Heresy books or not.*

I'm just curious as to what other Astartes Legion or particular xeno race each of the 18 Legions has a rivalry or hatred of and why. This can also include 'friendly' rivalries and 40k Chapters.

Also if anyone wants to list their custom Chapter or Chaos Warbands particular rivalry/hatred that might be alot of fun too, and will add a bit more longevity to the topic.

I'll get the ball rolling :

*Loyalists

Ultramarines *- Word Bearers would be a definate due to the battle of Calith during the Heresy. Tyranids as well due to the battle of Maccrage againt Hive Fleet Behemoth.

*White Scars *- The Dark Eldar would definately be high on the White Scar's hitlist due to the raids on their home planet during the Heresy and the fact their Primarch was either slane or has been captured by DE forces in the webway.

*Blood Angels *- I would imagine Abaddon would personally be on their (s)hitlist due to simply having the Talon of Horus and also in a recent novel Fabius Bile caused quite a few problems for them. 

*Imperial Fists *- This would be the Iron Warriors as they had a rivalry even before the Heresy started as Perturabo hated Dorn's guts, and this culminated in the Iron Cage 'incident' lol.

*Space Wolves* - Thousand Sons would be their biggest rivalry I would think. I haven't read _Prospero Burns _yet, just _Thousand Sons_, so I'm biased in believing this is all there fault. So please if you want to elaborate more use spoiler tags lol.

*Dark Angels* - I would say themselves due to the whole hunting of the Fallen.

*Iron Hands* - Definately the Emperor's Children as their Primarch was slain by Fulgrim personally. 

*Crimson Fists *- I would imagine they have an intense hatred for the Orks.

*
Traitors

**Black Legion* - I would say literally everyone. They hate the Imperium in it's entirety and also they were turned on by all the other Chaos Legions in the Eye of Terror for being the first ones to retreat on Terra. Although the Emperor's Children and Fabius Bile might be particularly disliked for trying to clone Horus. 

*Word Bearers* - You only have to read _The First Heretic _to find out why they would hate the Ultramarines so much. Also apparently they dislike the Alpha Legion due to the nature of each Legions tactics and how they often come into conflict. So when the WB's try to set up Chaos cults the Alpha Legion may be trying to set-up terrorist like cells etc. Interestingly they also have kept up their hatred of all xeno's as well, which is indicated in _The Word Bearer's Trilogy_.

*Thousand Sons* - I would imagine that the Space Wolves aren't going to be invited to the Sorcerer's planet anytime soon (although maybe they will, but it won't be to their liking). The novel _Thousand Sons _made me completely sympathise with this Legion's plight.

*Iron Warriors* - They are pretty bitter about everyone, but the Imperial Fists and all of their Chapters would no doubt be the recipients of most of their hate. Although boy did they get them back in style (Ironcage). 

*World Eaters* - Easy answer would be everyone or Emperor's Children (because of GW's new simplified understanding of Chaos rivalries) although I would guess Kharn wouldn't be looked upon very kindly.


So there you have it folks. That's my contribution so far.

Just to reiterate, if anyone else want to contribute their own Chapter/Legion/Warband's fluff as well as talking about the original Legions, that might be a more fun way of discussing this topic.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The Crimson fists are a successor. I thought this was a list of the legions.

Edit: Ok...sorry I didn't read all of it.


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> *This can also include 'friendly' rivalries and 40k Chapters.
> *





locustgate said:


> The Crimson fists are a successor. I thought this was a list of the legions.


Hope that answers your question.


----------



## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

The Dark Angels and the Space Wolves have a "friendly" rivalry due to an incindent that occured during the greate crusade.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm all Team Russ, espcially after reading Prospero Burns. Even before i read it, no matter how sympathetic Thousand Sons did indeed make Magnus and the legion appear, their arrogance shone through completely, they believed they were masters of the warp and had no limits, they were corrupt from the very start they just didn't know it, they may have been loyal and for that i truely do sympathise with them, but their fall was inevitable, every single one of them doomed to fall, espically with their 'pet' deamons.

And afer reading Prospero Burns, spoilers ahead



The Vlka Fenryka(as the wolves will be known as from now on as its so much more of a good name) appear to me fully justifiable in their razing of Prospero and their rivalry. The so called hypocrisy of them using psychic powers is done away with in one conversation and why they dislike the Thousands Sons blatent use of it. They realise that they have limits with their powers, lines they cannot cross and they are not masters of the warp at all, whereas they(correctly) see the Thousand Sons as having no such limits, taking many steps over that line and believing themselves to be in full control of the warp.

And as for the burning, i even felt sorry for Russ for having to do it. He clearly doesn't want to do it, but he is probably one of the most loyal of the Emperors sons, he will do whatever is commanded of him, but he does not relish having to attack Propero at all. They key point aswell being when he attempts to communicate with Magnus, he tell him to evacuate all the civilians and innocents and then proceeds to beg Magnus, brother to brother, to present himself and his legion openely when he and the Vlka Fenryka arrive so that they can bring them in without any bloodshed. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had stood down and allowed Russ to take them in, their would have been no burning. But Magnus wanted his legion destroyed and himself defeated, he didn't want them to play any more part in the Gods plans. But in the end he gave in.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Space Wolves really dislike the Flesh Tearers- there's been full on combat between the 2 chapters after the FT rampaged through imperial civilians after driving the enemy away, sadly for the blood crazed madmen they were fighting alongside the Sons of Russ who take a dim view of such actions...


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Space Wolves really dislike the Flesh Tearers- there's been full on combat between the 2 chapters after the FT rampaged through imperial civilians after driving the enemy away, sadly for the blood crazed madmen they were fighting alongside the Sons of Russ who take a dim view of such actions...


Is that true?

By that I mean, where can I read that story, it sounds awesome lol?


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's in the BA Codex, the timeline section under 'Honour's End'.

Edit: no it's in the SW Codex, sorry.


----------



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

As of the 5E BA Codex, the Blood Angels appeared to have formed a rivalry with the World Eaters during the Great Crusade due to both of them sharing the role of shock troops. The World Eaters were reputedly bloodthirstier, however.

And I guess if you want to count it, my Stormhunters share a rivalry with the Ultramarines. </shameless self-advertising>


----------



## Marshal Ragnar (Sep 5, 2010)

High Marshal Helbrecht of the the Black Templars hates Thraka


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

A big one you missed was the Alpha Legion's antipathy towards the Ultramarines.


During the Crusade:
- Guilliman and his Ultramarines despised the XX Legion's use of subversion and covert tactics during the Great Crusade

Following the Heresy
- After Horus's defeat at Terra, the Alpha Legion moved to operate in the eastern rim of the galaxy (now the Ultima Segmentum)
- Guilliman killed Alpharius at Eskrandor, and although the Ultramarines were defeated the Alpha Legion was fractured following the battle


----------



## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I didn't think that the alpha legion was fractured, i thought that they always had an emphasis on acting as an independant unit form the whole, so the loss of 1 of their 2 primarchs wouldn't have ben a massive loss.

Don't the Ultramarines and the Word bearers have something going on aswell?


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Aye, pretty much everyone hated the Ultramarines, because Guilliman was a (to put it non-eloquently) a humourless douchebag that refused to believe anyone else's methods were better than his own.

Regarding the fracture of the Alpha Legion (from Lexicanum, which although I recognize it is not necessarily lore but I still tend to believe it)



> Following the battle on Eskrador, the Alpha Legion fractured in order to hide from the Imperium. Small, autonomous warbands were left in imperial space where they set up secret bases in asteroid fields, space hulks and barren worlds. These units launched frequent attacks against military targets that were weakened by the Heresy and still pose a threat to ships, settlements and garrisons. They further spread and coordinate Chaos Cults throughout the galaxy in order to instigate massive revolts against imperial rule. These insurrections are often used to lure imperial forces away from worlds they want to attack, paving the way for large scale assault from the Eye of Terror.


Basically, in my mind, they've become a massive insurgent-like organization, completely decentralized and... well... imagine a hydra


----------



## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

lotta heads


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Boc said:


> Basically, in my mind, they've become a massive insurgent-like organization, completely decentralized and... well... imagine a hydra


Pretty sure they were set up in the same way before the Heresy, _Legion_ certainly suggests a fair deal of autonomy amongst different members of the legion.

I would imagine there would be a fair deal of hatred of the Callidus, and assassins in general, by the Night Lords. Possible also the Imperial Fists but they might figure that Night Haunter settled that score already.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Pretty sure they were set up in the same way before the Heresy, _Legion_ certainly suggests a fair deal of autonomy amongst different members of the legion.


Agreed, however at least pre-Heresy Alpha Legion had a primarch in charge.

Not to ruin part of Legion...


Then again the whole twin-brother aspect could mean that perhaps Omegon (or perhaps Alpharius) is still running things from the background.


----------



## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Could be a mix, one of them might be leading a large force and whilst there might be several smaller cells of AL causing havok.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Boc said:


> Aye, pretty much everyone hated the Ultramarines, because Guilliman was a (to put it non-eloquently) a humourless douchebag that refused to believe anyone else's methods were better than his own.
> 
> Regarding the fracture of the Alpha Legion (from Lexicanum, which although I recognize it is not necessarily lore but I still tend to believe it)
> 
> ...


The Khan and Dorn at least are known to have liked Guilliman (despite the clash between Rogal and Roboute over the Codex):grin:

It's possible Alpharius wasn't killed- the only account of the Battle of Eskrador was provided in testimony from an Inquisitor who was later found to be a member of the Cult of the Hydra, he provided no evidence that could be verified to any degree of accuracy.

Personally I keep an open mind about that battle and just accept we'll likely never know the truth.


----------



## Jsay18 (Dec 12, 2010)

My Chapter The Angels of Justice Don't really like the black templars to much.

To arrogent and thinking that they are the best.
(my experience with Black templar Fans, but people on hersey aren't like that)


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Boc said:


> Agreed, however at least pre-Heresy Alpha Legion had a primarch in charge.
> 
> Not to ruin part of Legion...


Not to mention the fact that that story is disputed by the Ultramarines themselves, could very well mean the Alpha legions still has its primarch(s).


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I would have said that Space Wolves and Dark Angels definitely have a bitter but productive rivalry. Both pushing the other beyond their limits.

The Black Legion probably does hate every other legion. Especially since they basically were picked upon by everyone right after Horus fell.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Now to those of you. With the info regarding Alpha Legion, where do you guys find this information? I'm not trying to say "OH YEAAAAH?" I'm just legitimately curious, since my only source is Lexicanum and i'd likne to build upon my random 40k knowledge.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Boc said:


> A big one you missed was the Alpha Legion's antipathy towards the Ultramarines.


Since the release of _Legion_ I think the emnity between the Alpha Legion and Ultramarines has been downplayed. Alpharius simply stating he _'ignores'_ Guilliman.



Boc said:


> - Guilliman killed Alpharius at Eskrandor, and although the Ultramarines were defeated the Alpha Legion was fractured following the battle


The war on Eskrador is generally seen as a ploy to spread misinformation throughout Imperial records. It may well never have happened at all.



Boc said:


> Aye, pretty much everyone hated the Ultramarines, because Guilliman was a (to put it non-eloquently) a humourless douchebag that refused to believe anyone else's methods were better than his own.


Actually there is only reason to believe that only Lorgar and Alpharius never strictly saw eye to eye with Guilliman, and Lorgar only post-Monarchia. I don't believe there are any records of any other Primarchs not maintaining some form of healthy relationship with the Ultramarines' Primarch. Even Horus (in _Horus Rising_) states that he needs the support and influence that Guilliman maintains to effectively act as Warmaster, implying Guilliman maintained strong relationships throughout the Primarch brotherhood. _Horus Rising_ further states that Horus looked up to Guilliman as a younger sibling might look to an older brother for support. This only speaks highly of Guilliman's relationships.



Boc said:


> Agreed, however at least pre-Heresy Alpha Legion had a primarch in charge.


Indeed they did, but not in the conventional sense. Alpharius fostered individuality in his Legion, de-centralised his command structure and ensured his Legion could act in independent cells and without their Primarch. The Alpha Legion acts very similarily post-Heresy as they did pre-Heresy.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

As for where we got all our pre-Legion fluff from, the Alpha Legion Index Astartes and Chaos Marine codexs. The AL Index Astartes article is the one that details the battle on Eskrador, but as has been said, its very likely it didn't even happen or if it did, didn't happen how it was described as it was all reported from an Inquisitor who is now belived to have been working for the Alpha Legion all along. So chances are they still have both their Primarchs, though niether have been seen since the Heresy.


----------



## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

Don't think the WB and IW get on. In fact I'm sure they are at each others throats most days.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nightfish said:


> Don't think the WB and IW get on. In fact I'm sure they are at each others throats most days.


What makes you say that?

In my opinion the Iron Warriors probably don't get along with any of their traitor counterparts. In fact if they had anyone they could get along with, it would probably be the Word Bearers. Because unlike the other legions, both of them worship chaos in their entirety. Not just worshiping individual gods.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I would highly doubt that any of the traitor legions get along. They'll work together sure, but they won't enjoy doing so and will back-stab each other at the first opportunity.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Boc said:


> Aye, pretty much everyone hated the Ultramarines, because Guilliman was a (to put it non-eloquently) a humourless douchebag that refused to believe anyone else's methods were better than his own.


Actually no. The only one who seems to have a rivalry with the Ultramairnes are the Word Bearers.

In fact, in Visions of Darkness, Lorgar lumps Guilliman in with Sanguinius, Dorn and Horus, as one of the Primarchs whom all else would follow. Guilliman's _biggest hater_ is admitting to himself that the other Primarchs would follow Guilliman.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Word Beaerers and Alpha Legion have a mutual hatred for each other post-Heresy, both Legions use cults to infiltrate worlds (with differing methods and intentions) and so have clashed numerous times over the same resources/targets.


----------



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

The Crimson Fists and the Mortifactors almost had a scrap in 819.M41, but that was settled by Marneus Calgar.

In the same vein, the Knights of the Raven and the Aurora Chapter came to blows and Marneus Calgar had to end that, too. The KotR are now on a crusade of penance against Hive Fleet Kraken. There are no further details concerning this, so there's no telling what happened to the Aurora Chapter or why the conflict even started in the first place.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Would imagine the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers don't get on either as they are pretty much the opposite ends of the chaos followers spectrum. Lorgar and the Word Bearers fully submit to and embrace chaos in all its forms, where as Alpharius Omegon and the Alpha Legion of all the traitors are probably the least 'keen' as it were of chaos, making many bases outside of the Eye and operating outside of it alot. And then this might be purely subjective but they joined chaos for almost complete opposite reasons aswell. Lorgar was the orginal traitor and willingly turned to chaos, where as Alpharius and Omegon joined chaos to try and bring about its eventual downfall and were still technically loyal to the Emperor. Big parralels between the two when you look at it


----------



## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Salamanders and Night Lords!


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Carna said:


> Salamanders and Night Lords!


Why do they hate each other?


Also if anyone wants to post their own custom fluff about hatreds (including xenos, i.e. my Orks hate Blood Angels because) I'll give some rep out if the quality is good.

So don't just say, x hates y, give a bit of info and background.

ATM I'm debating (based on the armies I decide to run) about having my Blood Angels spin-off chapter hate a Word Bearers Host, depending how I finally decide to paint my CSM.

As I'm using alot of Sanguinary Priests and my a Reclusiarch in my BA Chapter, so I'm thinking it might be cool to have them be religious nutters facing off against each other. Maybe even have some of the BA turn traitor as I'm thinking of using some Sanguinary Guard as counts as Raptors.


----------



## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Would it not be more believable if it was a group of religious nutters against a group of less devoute subjects?

One that im surprised doesn't happen is Adeptus machanicus and the Inquisition/ sisters of battle, seeing as one is a group of extremely devoute Emperah worshippers and the other worship a machine god.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Why do they hate each other?


I think he was referring to the events of _The Core_ and _Prometheus Requiem_. But they are no basis to suggest the VIII and XVIII Legions have a long standing rivalry/hatred. In fact if that was the case you would have a basis to suggest every Legion had a rivalry/hatred towards every other Legion.


----------



## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Another Alpha Legion rivalry would be with White Scars and possibly Space Wolves... while most of Horus' entourage went to Terra the AL went on distraction missions to slow the arrival of more forces


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cowlicker16 said:


> Another Alpha Legion rivalry would be with White Scars and possibly Space Wolves... while most of Horus' entourage went to Terra the AL went on distraction missions to slow the arrival of more forces


But that doesn't automatically result in them bearing a longterm rivalry/hatred. It just means that there has been a conflict between them. And for the record the Alpha Legion never actually engaged the White Scars, they were able to jump ship to Terra before the Alpha Legion could stall them.


----------

