# Frustrated at no one wanting to play Forgeworld units



## nightlords (Feb 13, 2011)

Right so recently i started using me DKOK army that has been secretly building up behind closed doors.Anyway so i was at my local GW when I revealed my Death korps and a few people were like ok sure we will give it a shot after that no one wants to play them any more saying that the Death korps are "Broken" and that things like thud guns are to powerful i have since started playing my death korps as normal guard with out any of there extra stuff but i do feel like iv wasted money as i can no longer use most of my nice little extra stuff :/.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

what armies do they play? if they play grey knights then they have no cause for complaint. anyway, a good player with an army should be a challenge to beat, you dont just give up just because you cant beat someone, you adapt and change to beat them.

and if they still dont acept this just play without the "special" stuff of the DKoK, just use the thudd guns as autocannons/HB maybe.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

:goodpost:

Surely somebody would be up to the challenge of fighting them. Grey Knights are OP but plenty of people manage to beat them. It just takes some skill and maybe some lucky rolls.


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## nightlords (Feb 13, 2011)

Mainly space marines and orks as are the usual amongst the GW stores iv been too and a few eldar and GK.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

A weapon that only gets to fire 4 times in 6 turns is broken? lol. DKOK is by no means a broken army, in fact it's barely competitive. Just tell them how to beat your DKOK and try and minimize the use of units they see as "Broken"

I have had only great responses from people around here with my DKOK. I think most people here are just happy to not see space marine variant X on the field.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I was under the impression that Death Korps were significantly less powerful than the standard Imperial Guard, but the uncommon army syndrome kicks in and people get scared, as they have no idea of what new things are going to happen. It's just the same as when a new Codex is released - if you had to ask your opponent's permission to use the new things in a Codex, I reckon that a good portion of them would turn you down.

Midnight


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> I was under the impression that Death Korps were significantly less powerful than the standard Imperial Guard, but the uncommon army syndrome kicks in and people get scared, as they have no idea of what new things are going to happen. It's just the same as when a new Codex is released - if you had to ask your opponent's permission to use the new things in a Codex, I reckon that a good portion of them would turn you down.
> 
> Midnight


They are quite a bit different from regular guard. Only 1 transport and it's only for 5 models and doesn't have the command vehicle so can't even hide commmand squads in it....but the models are so pretty, and their artillery is pretty amazing. I think they are a blast even with a major disadvantage in most games.


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## Scythes (Dec 30, 2011)

I would say if you won those games against them they're sore losers. They see it as an army they just can't beat, even it's by no means some crazy OP army, and don't want to play against it. I would try to find someone else to play against, I have no problem losing, infact I do fairly often, but it's all in good fun.


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## arizonajirt (Apr 5, 2011)

I will happily let your DKoK wipe the floor with any of my armies. you can even pick which one you want to beat that day.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Sounds like your local might be saturated by fuckwits. As far as i am concerned, if it has gw published rules then it is a go. Rules from BOLS are also accepted(Only rules i could get for my leviathan) Obviously apoc units are apoc only.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

One of my regular guys has DKoK, and I find them quite refreshing to play against; Not just another Space Marine army. The Thudd guns are rather cool, and rather than complain about them, your opponents should be trying to figure out how to beat them...
There are MORE than enough OTHER shiny toys they can bring to deal with them. Just look at the nasty things Forge World has for those pesky Eldar... And your Ork player has nerve complaining when he can take those blasted Nob Bikers with Cy-Ork bodies...


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> Sounds like your local might be saturated by fuckwits. As far as i am concerned, if it has gw published rules then it is a go.


and provided that you have the IA book with the rules im game - actually there has been a movement, however small, @ my FLGS to include more FW units in games.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Fallen said:


> and provided that you have the IA book with the rules im game - actually there has been a movement, however small, @ my FLGS to include more FW units in games.


Exactly. :goodpost:


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

That's why I don't build apocalypse units anymore (like Stompas and such). You just don't get to use them enough. My last one broke in a move, and I can't work up the enthusiasm to assemble and store a new one, not when it's only going to be used in 1-2 games a year, which I can just as easily play without them.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

If you're ever going to be down in Manchester with them...


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

I love playing against forgeworld armies. They are different and force me to adapt, broken or not. I'd loved to play agianst you but since I am sevral hours drive/train away that might not be possible. I plan on doing the Summer or Fall TOS, so if you show there I'd be more than willing to play against you.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't see people's problem with going up against stuff like that. Seriously, if you were down my FLGS and needed a game I'd jump at it in a heartbeat! I've only had problems with my friends saying they don't want me using my Tomb Stalker and my response is always something along the lines of "Fuck off, I'm using it."


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Most Forge World stuff is hardly overpowered anyway - I'd like to see someone complain about facing Tyrant's Legion, for example. If anything, lots of stuff is expensive and not really that good, despite having awesome models - see Shadow Spectres.

I'm happy to play against Forge World units as long as I can see the rules and have a look through them beforehand.

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I use to have the problem in gw, but in my local club I've never even had to ask permission, although I don't have as much fw stuff as I would like, I usually just use the penance ruse vanquisher alternate ammo rules and co-axial heavy stubbers


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

My game of preference is Apocalypse. 
3,000-4,000 points per player. You get to field all kinds of Forge World goodies against their like and nobody can complain about them.

My Eldar collection that I select from is fully painted and based, completely WYSIWYG and stands at around 14,000 Points.

Irrespective of whether it is Apocalypse or Standard 40K I'm playing, as well as all my books I take two printed copies of my Army List that have been run up on Army Builder. They contain all the stats for each Unit and a photograph of that Unit. One copy is for me and one is for my opponent.

In addition, if I am using any Forge World models, I take along two photocopies of the relevant Datasheet. Again, one is for me and one is for my opponent. 

I give my opponent his copies before our game.

My opponent's copies are for them to keep, so they can read up in advance of any future battles we may have.

I always talk them through the Datasheets and demonstrate any relevant ranges and Templates so they have a good grasp of what to expect.

In game, my opponent has complete access to any and all my playing-aids.

How more open or sporting can I be?



In the last five years I have never once been offered an itemised army list by an opponent who finds Forge World objectionable. Not even a hand-written one. 

I have constantly and consistently been tailored against, out-pointed and downright cheated by these self-same people.


And yet I'm the one made to feel like I'm seeking an unfair advantage...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Silens said:


> I've only had problems with my friends saying they don't want me using my Tomb Stalker and my response is always something along the lines of "Fuck off, I'm using it."


Good to see you use a balanced and reasonable response and don't act like a toddler.

The problem isn't really that Forgeworld units are good or bad, some are certainly overpowered and some aren't. The issue is you've turned up for a pick up game and your opponent doesn't want the bother of learning rules for your IA Army. You might be on a time limit and all that time being super sporting explaining everything in your army in tedious detail is time that could be spent playing toy soldiers. Not explaining what could happen if toy soldiers were to be played. 

It's your opponents prerogative to play you or not as it's up to you to play them.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Silens said:


> I don't see people's problem with going up against stuff like that. Seriously, if you were down my FLGS and needed a game I'd jump at it in a heartbeat! I've only had problems with my friends saying they don't want me using my Tomb Stalker and my response is always something along the lines of "Fuck off, I'm using it."


FW rulebooks are hard back for a reason, a smack in the head with one is equal to a fuck off

I don't buy that whole "takes time explaining, wastes time" etc etc, it takes maybe less than a minute to explain an individual unit, if this unit is the same as a dozen others that's still a minute, even if your whole army is fw, that's maybe 5 minutes to very quickly give your opponent a quick run through, the majority they should learn in turn 1


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

The only fear of forgeworld models I've seen is that its a time crunch and they don't know the rules like Aramoro said. Now I subscribe to the fact that if I don't know the rules, I can trust my opponent to know them and I can learn it through the game. "Oh gods, I don't know your army perfectly".

I personally subscribe to the theory that I don't know everything and that neither does my army commander. I don't care if we show lists or not, I'll see your army when it hits the table and I'll see "Oh, that dude has a lascannon." "That model looks pretty pimp, I better watch out for whatever he does".

We've got a Elysium Drop Trooper player who plays on a regular basis with his drop troopers.

Edit: We also have a chaos player who enjoys his crazy renegade lists. Something about plague zombie swarming. Haven't played him personally yet.


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## shiftystylin (Mar 24, 2012)

Is this a common trend? I want to start a Carcharadon army with Tyberos 'cos he looks uber hard! :headbutt: 
Is that going to drive people away?


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

All depends on your local scene. Honestly, I think more and more folks are comming around to the idea of FW lists.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> FW rulebooks are hard back for a reason, a smack in the head with one is equal to a fuck off


You're going to regret the hardback nature of the book when someone force feeds you it for have the temerity to hit them with it. Because from here, you sound like a dick which makes it 100% more likely they'll refuse to let you use your FW units. 

As with most of these things, if you're a nice guy and you get on with people then you'll get to use your FW most of the time. Just trying stuff out, it's all good. If you turn up at your local store and announce you're using it and you'll fuck up anyone who says you can't with your book then you'll not get to use them.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Wow aramoro, ever heard of sarcasm, joking around?, Cus its not me that sounds like the Dick right now

You actually seriously think people would hit each other with the books?, wow.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

At my FLGS there seems to be a bit of a trend of bringing FW models to usual games and they are even legal in some tourneys. My friend brings a warphunter most of the time for his Eldar and no one seems to mind. I've even talked about adding Decimators to my Deamon army and no one batted an eyelid. I guess it all comes down to the people there.

The biggest argument against FW/IA stuff that I've heard in my area is "Not everyone has access to the rules for it". Personally I think thats crap. I don't own every single codex, I haven't got a clue about the new necrons but I'm not going to turn down a game against them because I don't have access to the book.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Yeah the no access thing is rather lame really, allot of the lists are free to download from FW directly, and if your willing to spend large amounts of money on models you can always afford the books, and like you say its the same with the codex, I don't have the orks, nids, black templar and maybe 1 mire I can't recall, don't mean I refuse to play, my opponent is surely going to be happy to show me


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> Wow aramoro, ever heard of sarcasm, joking around?, Cus its not me that sounds like the Dick right now
> 
> You actually seriously think people would hit each other with the books?, wow.


I've actually seen it so yes I would believe it. Of course no reasonable person would ever hit someone with a book, but then no reasonable person upon being told they can't use their FW units would say 'Fuck you, I'm using them' either so do you see my quandary. 

I know in my play group people can use pretty much whatever they want, it's just a game after all. At the same time if someone said, actually I'd rather not play against 'x, y or z' then that's also cool because we're adults and can use our words. However if you're going to a local store and playing against strangers in pick up games you can't force them to play against FW units, nor are they dicks for not wanting to play against them. It's a game and everyone gets to define the parameters of what will make that game fun for them.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I couldn't agree with Calamari more about the "I've no access to those rules" being a lame excuse.

Normally I agree with Aramoro, I find him to be one of the voices of reason on this Forum.
But in this instance I have to disagree with his backing for people who refuse to play against Forge World models.

"It's a game and everyone gets to define the parameters of what will make that game fun for them."

I don't think it's right or fair for somebody to object to playing against an army because a bog standard tank has got a slightly different turret weapon (Falcon/Warphunter), when they aren't bothering to follow the rules themselves regarding providing an army list or adhering to points limits.

I don't have the time to write my opponent's army list for them and then points cost it because they're too lazy or too cheating to do it for themselves.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Hell with how grey knights are they should need permission to be played over any FW item haha


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Well what right do you, to try to force what you want to use on your opponent? This applies to all things not just FW units. Like when we're playing WHFB here and I say hey I'd rather not play against Teclis, is that cool? Then I don't have to play against Teclis as that makes the game more fun for me and if he's cool with it then everyone is happy. 

If you're playing against people, without lists and well over points then just don't play them. You can't say 'you have no list so your MUST accept my FW units'. That just makes no sense at all.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So really what you are saying is that someone has just as much right to not play a FW unit as the other person has to field an FW unit?

Fair enough in my book.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So really what you are saying is that someone has just as much right to not play a FW unit as the other person has to field an FW unit?
> 
> Fair enough in my book.


Pretty much. You arrange a game, you say 'Mind if I play my FW army' If they say no then you have a choice, Don't play the game or play a different army. Or you can go up to someone and say 'Want to play against my FW army?' and then they have a choice, don't play the game or play it. 

No one is ever forced to play a game, so just come to a common understanding and go with it, use your words.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

I still think it's silly you have to ask your opponent to use the FW stuff. It should be just as main stream as a codex, especially complete army lists like DKOK, Renegades or Elysians

If your opponent chooses to not play against it, well that's their prerogative. It should be the same process of choosing not to play against Grey Knights or any other codex.


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## lasgun joker (Aug 30, 2011)

Well iv discovered the reason for my lack of games it was the " I don't have access to their rules" excuse. Even upon being offered the rules from the IA book to read through before we play they still refuse. My opinion? time to find a different place to go :/.


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## lasgun joker (Aug 30, 2011)

Pssyche said:


> If you're ever going to be down in Manchester with them...


 Well im currently in Manchester to see family and i found it amusing that you posted that the day i got here.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Magpie_Oz said:


> So really what you are saying is that someone has just as much right to not play a FW unit as the other person has to field an FW unit?
> 
> Fair enough in my book.


Mine too, and I'm in the 'all for playing FW' camp. Seriously, if either camp doesn't know that either one has as much right to say 'no' as the other then they're all idiots.

Said it before and I'll say it again,,,this issue will never go away regardless if GW make it official to use FW in any form of this game, because your opponent can always say 'no'.

The only way to get your way (use your FW stuff) is to find a group of like-minded players and play to your heart's content...totally deletes the anti-FW sentiment from the equation.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

At what point did I say I refused to play against people?


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

HOBO said:


> Mine too, and I'm in the 'all for playing FW' camp. Seriously, if either camp doesn't know that either one has as much right to say 'no' as the other then they're all idiots.
> 
> Said it before and I'll say it again,,,this issue will never go away regardless if GW make it official to use FW in any form of this game, because your opponent can always say 'no'.
> 
> The only way to get your way (use your FW stuff) is to find a group of like-minded players and play to your heart's content...totally deletes the anti-FW sentiment from the equation.


Well if it's official it will be a big step forward for FW stuff since you don't have to ask your opponent to use it, you just use it. It removes the step where you even have to ask, which is one less step that someone can say "No". At this stage it's no different than someone refusing to play a particular codex. Which I think is vastly different.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Taggerung said:


> Well if it's official it will be a big step forward for FW stuff since you don't have to ask your opponent to use it, you just use it. It removes the step where you even have to ask, which is one less step that someone can say "No". At this stage it's no different than someone refusing to play a particular codex. Which I think is vastly different.


I couldn't agree more, but your opponent can still say no when he/she realises you're using FW units...so the end result remains the same doesn't it.

I definitely think that people who oppose any FW use by arguing the whole 'it's overpowered and out of balance', are using a weak argument when there's legal Codex units that are 'known' to be overpowered etc.

But hey, that's the way it is, and all these arguments (whatever) put forward in this Thread will be the exact same ones put forward in the next Thread about this subject...and the one after that and the one after that - ad nauseum.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Good to see you use a balanced and reasonable response and don't act like a toddler.
> 
> The problem isn't really that Forgeworld units are good or bad, some are certainly overpowered and some aren't. The issue is you've turned up for a pick up game and your opponent doesn't want the bother of learning rules for your IA Army. You might be on a time limit and all that time being super sporting explaining everything in your army in tedious detail is time that could be spent playing toy soldiers. Not explaining what could happen if toy soldiers were to be played.
> 
> It's your opponents prerogative to play you or not as it's up to you to play them.


As I said, this'd be with my friends (Who often do it as a joke just to annoy me) and not with people in the shop who I don't really know. Plus, it's just the one model of which I've got the rules saved to my phone. It's not an entire IA army, and to be fair I'll happily go up against an Eldar army whilst having almost no idea what their rules are. You seemed to take my comment a bit more seriously than intended and I don't see any reason for the insult.

I don't think ignorance is an excuse whether battling a FW army or a GW army, and I'd consider it just as rude to refuse someone their shiny new FW model on the board as refusing them their 'over-powered' Games Workshop model. At my FLGS, the house-rule just seems to be something like "If you've got the rules, you can use it". In an apocalypse game not long ago, someone used three FW Chaos Space Marine plane thingies. Nobody had the rules for flyers, so the models had to be treated as skimmers for the duration of the game.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

The rules for flyers are in almost every IA book...


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

And nobody had any IA books.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Silens said:


> And nobody had any IA books.


So nobody would bring any fliers


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

An interesting thread, and I can see the argument from both camps. Even if you have a built a generic all comers list it can be hard to suddenly find you are up against something, which may not be over powered, but could be so outside of your experience you dont have time to accomidate it (such as a caestus assault ram dropping 10 assault terminators in amongst your fireing line on turn 2). But I can see that if you had just dropped several hundred pounds/dollars/euros on a Death Korps army, and not being able to use it as intended would be galling.

Personally I find most people I play against to be fine with FW. Although I dont use FW models, I know people at the local club who use them and have not heard of anyone refusing to let them be used. But to be fair we are a more mature bunch in general which could account for that more relaxed attitude.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

HOBO said:


> I definitely think that people who oppose any FW use by arguing the whole 'it's overpowered and out of balance', are using a weak argument when there's legal Codex units that are 'known' to be overpowered etc.


I disagree that there are "Overpowered" units in any 5th Edition codex. There are "Good" units and sometimes "Very good" units, but if there was such a thing as "Overpowered" then every single tournament player would bring the same codex with the same list, with as many of those units as possible. Sure, some units are better than others - I'd rather buy 15 Long Fangs than 20 Blood Claws, for example - but there is nothing in 40k that says "You automatically lose if I field this unit" or "If you take this army you must take this unit or lose every game".

On the other hand if you play a normal mechanised army and find yourself sitting opposite a Strength D weapon that ignores cover saves and automatically causes an AP1 penetrate on any vehicle touched by the large blast template regardless of where the hole is... You're pretty royally fucked. Especially since you cannot shake superheavies, you need to kill them at least twice over, and any weapon destroyed result gets a 4+ save on the main gun... I'd call that OP.

If FW rules were written by the same people who write codices and the main 40k rulebook, and were balanced accordingly, then sure, remove the restrictions on opponents permission. But so long as the FW rules seem to be written by monkeys on crack (both in terms of making stupidly bad and also stupidly good units) then I reserve the right to not play with them, because frankly it's not fun.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

If I had to fight a D weapon in 40k I would wonder where my opponent got the rules, as only apocalypse can use D weapons, and any FW unit with D weapons is only covered by apocalypse rules.

In that case your opponent is plain cheating, that's nothing to do with FW

If your opponent was using super heavies in 40k that's fine....so long as they are using the 40k version of the rules not the apocalypse version, like with the baneblade, but that is rubbish in basic 40k, but fun


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Pssyche said:


> I couldn't agree with Calamari more about the "I've no access to those rules" being a lame excuse.


Nonsense. A number of those IA books, possibly all of them in fact, are limited print runs, and only available for a limited time. Not all of the rules are available on the website, and it is entirely conceivable that someone, particularly players new to the game, will not have had ANY opportunity to pick up the rules for your units, and to know them. With that being the case, the POSSIBILITY of players cheating and making shit up is huge.

Doesn't even matter if you could somehow prove it had literally never happened in the history of the world - the fact remains that the opportunity is there, and mostly it would be easy for players to do. Those of us that don't own IA books don't have time to sit for half an hour, checking that your stuff is legal. Speaking of...


> "It's a game and everyone gets to define the parameters of what will make that game fun for them."
> 
> I don't think it's right or fair for somebody to object to playing against an army because a bog standard tank has got a slightly different turret weapon (Falcon/Warphunter), when they aren't bothering to follow the rules themselves regarding providing an army list or adhering to points limits.
> 
> I don't have the time to write my opponent's army list for them and then points cost it because they're too lazy or too cheating to do it for themselves.


Fair? Perhaps not, no - but if you don't have time to write my army list, I sure as hell don't have time to go through a book I'm unfamiliar with to figure out yours. I agree with you in part - people who can't present me with a list, particularly before my models leave my case, are jerkwads and should be avoided if possible...but a Warphunter doesn't have a SLIGHTLY different turret, it has a GOOD turret, and it is ALWAYS within the power of players to refuse a game, or else it wouldn't really be a Hobby anymore, would it?



Sethis said:


> I disagree that there are "Overpowered" units in any 5th Edition codex. There are "Good" units and sometimes "Very good" units, but if there was such a thing as "Overpowered" then every single tournament player would bring the same codex with the same list, with as many of those units as possible. Sure, some units are better than others - I'd rather buy 15 Long Fangs than 20 Blood Claws, for example - but there is nothing in 40k that says "You automatically lose if I field this unit" or "If you take this army you must take this unit or lose every game".
> 
> On the other hand if you play a normal mechanised army and find yourself sitting opposite a Strength D weapon that ignores cover saves and automatically causes an AP1 penetrate on any vehicle touched by the large blast template regardless of where the hole is... You're pretty royally fucked. Especially since you cannot shake superheavies, you need to kill them at least twice over, and any weapon destroyed result gets a 4+ save on the main gun... I'd call that OP.
> 
> If FW rules were written by the same people who write codices and the main 40k rulebook, and were balanced accordingly, then sure, remove the restrictions on opponents permission. But so long as the FW rules seem to be written by monkeys on crack (both in terms of making stupidly bad and also stupidly good units) then I reserve the right to not play with them, because frankly it's not fun.


^ This. Specifically


> If FW rules were written by the same people who write codices and the main 40k rulebook, and were balanced accordingly, then sure, remove the restrictions on opponents permission. But so long as the FW rules seem to be written by monkeys on crack (both in terms of making stupidly bad and also stupidly good units) then I reserve the right to not play with them, because frankly it's not fun.


Some of them are absolutely awful, some are fine, some are Land Raiders with no weaknesses instead of being crap as they are in normal 40k. If you want to prearrange a game with that inherently unbalanced stuff, fine - but don't involve me. Fun is subjective, and I don't get my fun playing against something I'll literally never encounter in a tournament, because I have limited time for games, and no reason to waste that time when I could be preparing myself.


VanquisherMBT said:


> If I had to fight a D weapon in 40k I would wonder where my opponent got the rules, as only apocalypse can use D weapons, and any FW unit with D weapons is only covered by apocalypse rules.
> 
> In that case your opponent is plain cheating, that's nothing to do with FW
> 
> If your opponent was using super heavies in 40k that's fine....so long as they are using the 40k version of the rules not the apocalypse version, like with the baneblade, but that is rubbish in basic 40k, but fun


Fun is subjective. I don't find it FUN to use a unit that gets automatically destroyed in Dawn of War, giving me a massive points advantage from Turn one.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

It's only a game, who cares if you destroying it gives you an advantage, you should just both giggle about it and carry on, the rest of the game could be hilarious, Hell you might still lose.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

VanquisherMBT said:


> It's only a game, who cares if you destroying it gives you an advantage, you should just both giggle about it and carry on, the rest of the game could be hilarious, Hell you might still lose.


As much as this can be true for some players, others will always get a little downhearted that the central plank of thier tactics has been wiped off the board with no chance of winning a game.

People should realise peoples idea of fun is not always the same.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Fun is subjective. I don't find it FUN to use a unit that gets automatically destroyed in Dawn of War, giving me a massive points advantage from Turn one.


Rolling a Dawn of War against someone with a Baneblade IS funny though, but not really a game as such.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> It's only a game, who cares if you destroying it gives you an advantage, you should just both giggle about it and carry on, the rest of the game could be hilarious, Hell you might still lose.


Because, like I said, that isn't how I get my kicks. If I wanted to play games without much challenge, I could easily do so - hell, if I wanted to beat people with inferior armies, I'd just get my Orks out of storage...but I want close, tight affairs where player skill is the determining factor, not who can afford the best Super Heavies, or who's found the most broken combo/unit in FW rules, or just dumb luck when we both take uncompetitive lists.

Naturally, those are only EXAMPLES of way I don't have fun, not the only ways to do so, or necessarily what anyone in this thread enjoys.


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## Zaiko (Jul 11, 2011)

I wouldn't consider playing against FW units because I don't play much and when I do I'm trying to get down stuff for tournaments and learn peoples lists and tactics, 
which playing against FW units doesn't allow me to do.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

I guess it works both ways then...at least for me, people who only want to prep for tourneys tend to be rules lawyers and I rarely enjoy a game against them, so they don't want to play against FW rules, and I generally don't want to play them at all


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Zaiko, part of that is the same mentality that fuels them not being acceptable in tournies. I don't see how playing against them could make you a worse general.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Sethis said:


> > I disagree that there are "Overpowered" units in any 5th Edition codex. There are "Good" units and sometimes "Very good" units, but if there was such a thing as "Overpowered" then every single tournament player would bring the same codex with the same list, with as many of those units as possible. Sure, some units are better than others - I'd rather buy 15 Long Fangs than 20 Blood Claws, for example - but there is nothing in 40k that says "You automatically lose if I field this unit" or "If you take this army you must take this unit or lose every game".
> 
> 
> As with this entire argument there are a whole gamut of different opinions, and some are agreed upon and some aren't. By 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced, and yes I should have wrote Units not Codexes', many of us (on Heresy and lots of other sites) include GK, SW, BA, IG, Necrons amongst them....there are a lot of Threads/Posts started about the various Units in these Codecii stating how OP etc they are, so I don't agree with your disagreement to my viewpoint on this. Doesn't make either of our opinions invalid though.
> ...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

@Hobo - how can it be possible that 5 of the 9 Fifth Edition Codexes can possibly be OVERpowered? It simply cannot be the case. Rather, you SHOULD be arguing the others (Nids, Sisters) are UNDERpowered. 

Codexes from previous Editions are IRRELEVANT.

Caps are lazy emphasis, not voice raising.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I am in the FW units to be allowed in games camp. So long as it is plain obvious they are not used in games that are not apocalypse. 

As to how I am normally allowed to use my Corsairs in a GW store. Firstly I am friendly with the manager and other staffers as well as most of the regulers. I am polite so I at least put out a good impression and as such others trust me not to treat. Secondly, regardless of my opponents skill, I always give my Imperial Armour 11 book to anyone who might want to play against me with at least a couple of hours before I play. This gives them time to read through my rules so they can tell what all my stuff dies well before we play.

Never had anyone refuse to play my Corsairs. Although that may be because I make crazy lists like an all deep strike list with lots of jetpacks...


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Stephen_Newman said:


> all my stuff dies well before we play.


And people say FW can be OP, yours dies well before you even play


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

HOBO said:


> As with this entire argument there are a whole gamut of different opinions, and some are agreed upon and some aren't. By 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced, and yes I should have wrote Units not Codexes', many of us (on Heresy and lots of other sites) include GK, SW, BA, IG, Necrons amongst them....there are a lot of Threads/Posts started about the various Units in these Codecii stating how OP etc they are, so I don't agree with your disagreement to my viewpoint on this. Doesn't make either of our opinions invalid though.


I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Either that almost every single 5th Ed codex is overpowered, or that almost every 5th Ed codex has at least 1 overpowered unit in it somewhere.

If your argument is the former, I would suggest that you are the one fielding an underpowered army i.e. one not designed for this edition of the game or one designed by people who do not understand game balance (Forgeworld).

If it is the latter I will point out that every single army book ever has had some units that are better than others. Always. Pointing at Long Fangs and screaming "OP" just ignores Gunline 4th Ed, Herohammer 3rd Ed and the entire Eldar codex in 2nd Ed. There have always been both terrible units (normally in the FA slot) and excellent units (normally in Elites or HS) in the same codex. The design team have admitted that they design some units to be better than others. Unless you want to start labelling some of these units as "Overpowered XL" vs "Overpowered XXXL" at which point the whole idea becomes rather laughable, you just need to find out which units are good and which are bad, and buy more of the good ones if you want to win games.



HOBO said:


> No sorry, but this has far more to do with the actual gamer (who I'd call out as a WAAC'er, and as you know I'm in the FW camp, so should give you an insight to how 'fair' a gamer I am), than FW models and Rules. You anti-FW'ers always throw this argument up about people fielding an Apoc-only FW super-heavy model into a standard 40K game as a means to cast all FW players into the same class, that being a WAAC'er, and it simply is not the case, and I actually would not believe you if you told me that every FW user who you've ever played against did field a super-heavy.


I am by no means lumping you all into the same catagory, I was just using it as an example. I'm sure if I had a copy of every single IA book in front of me I could find equally broken combinations of units/rules, such as Furioso Dreadnoughts with the Drop Pods that you can assault out of, etc etc. I'm not saying that I refuse to play all FW rules/models because I think everything they've ever produced is that OP, I'm saying that it's an example of why I don't like it.



HOBO said:


> Obviously you'll never change your view, and life's far too short afaic., so I'll keep it short -
> There are about a half dozen FW units that are 'universally' considered OP, stupidly bad/good, (whatever), and opinions will no doubt vary -
> - Caestus Assault Ram
> - Lucius Pattern Drop Pod
> ...


Well you seem to be proving my point for me... Some FW units are overpowered. For what, 60pts more or so, I can get a Land Raider that:

- Is effectively immune to meltaguns (the only thing other than Railguns that can *reliably* deal with them)
- Has two twin linked Multimeltas (better than Lascannons, Hurricanes or Redeemer Cannons)
- Has a hull mounted Thunderfire Cannon (better than Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons)
- Makes any gun effectively AP - against it
- STILL carries a scoring unit.

Why would you ever *not* do that? Apart from the fact that they're £62 a pop _and you need your opponents permission to use them_. If someone rolled up with three of them in his carry case I'd probably smile, nod, and then pack up my stuff and go somewhere else. If they were legal in tournaments you can damn well be sure every power armour player would be packing at least one, if not two or three of them. *That's* what I call overpowered.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> @Hobo - how can it be possible that 5 of the 9 Fifth Edition Codexes can possibly be OVERpowered? It simply cannot be the case. Rather, you SHOULD be arguing the others (Nids, Sisters) are UNDERpowered.
> 
> Codexes from previous Editions are IRRELEVANT.
> 
> Caps are lazy emphasis, not voice raising.


I did revise my comment that 'Codexes are overpowered' to some 'units within that codex' are...and sure underpowered is as much to do with the whole unbalanced etc issues that 40K has.

All of which doesn't alter much to this whole 'for and against FW' argument that keeps cropping up...the anti - FW camp will continue to be just that, and the same applies to the ones in the pro-FW camp.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Hell I only want my co-axial heavy stubbers and weak russ conquerors haha


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> For what, 60pts more or so, I can get a Land Raider that:
> 
> - Is effectively immune to meltaguns (the only thing other than Railguns that can *reliably* deal with them)
> - Has two twin linked Multimeltas (better than Lascannons, Hurricanes or Redeemer Cannons)
> ...


But you can't pack Terminators to make use of that survivability, you can't assault out of it, it has a confusing mixture of weaponry (Thunderfire Cannon, 60" range; Multi-Melta, 12" effective range. What?) that encourages you to sit back and fire whilst holding 5 Tactical Marines to take objectives, wasting your Multi Meltas and Melta-immunity. It's confused, just like the Phobos, and very, _very_ expensive to boot. 

You read 3++ - you know it's not the Land Raider that's scary, it's the thing inside, and in the case of the Achilles the thing inside isn't scary at all. Are Doomsday Arks OP because they sit at 72" range with AV13, effectively ignoring Shaken results and shrugging off 50% of stuns, for what isn't a massive points cost?

+ if everything was overpowered, it would be balanced. Paradox!

The thing I largely hate about Apocalypse is the wallet battle. The richest man wins. It's sickening.

Midnight


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> Sethis said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Either that almost every single 5th Ed codex is overpowered, or that almost every 5th Ed codex has at least 1 overpowered unit in it somewhere.
> ...


All I wanted to 'prove' was that out of the, well let's say hundreds, of Models/units FW produce there aren't actually that many that are considered 'bad'. On the Achilles...I know dozens of gamers including many SM ones, and I think there's only about a half dozen who have an Archilles - FW users aren't automatically powergamers by any stretch, or buy their models just because of its rules. Some do, sure!


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I'd like an Achilles...but only Cus the model is very nice, don't see it being effective though, because as said its confused, its a crap transport, its an expensive thunderfire (a weapon people moan about being crap) and its powerful anti-tank will rarely fire, and most land raiders I see get killed by lascannons, very rarely meltaguns if any sort


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> The thing I largely hate about Apocalypse is the wallet battle. The richest man wins. It's sickening.
> 
> Midnight


Completely unlike regular 40k obviously....


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Completely unlike regular 40k obviously....


Haha, very true very true


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ironic, then, that Tyranids and Sisters are the worst Codices, no?

Midnight


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> The thing I largely hate about Apocalypse is the wallet battle. The richest man wins. It's sickening.
> Midnight


It equals out if the players involved are equals...wallet size-wise, sense of fair play, Armylist balance between all the players involved etc.

Not easily achieved though:biggrin:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

HOBO said:


> It equals out if the players involved are equals...wallet size-wise, sense of fair play, Armylist balance between all the players involved etc.
> 
> Not easily achieved though:biggrin:


How many people are there around that can afford two Revenant Titans and a Phantom, and are allowed to use half-built models that aren't even on the board because everyone in store has a massive hard-on for WMD? Credit where it's due, the guy's nice, but it's everyone else that's the problem. Especially the massive obsession with Apocalyptic Explosions (the Str D one). Jesus damn I hate it - you _like_ removing your army in a single turn? Crazy person! Seriously, we need a Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies mechanic. It'd go down a storm.

Midnight


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Ironic, then, that Tyranids and Sisters are the worst Codices, no?
> 
> Midnight


True, but if they spend enough even they can win. My point was merely that the one with the most money has the most cheese (or whatever you'd call it).
It doesn't matter if they are spending obscene amounts on one army or have the income to change army as soon as something better comes along. Wallethammer is not exclusively an apocalypse-thing.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

MidnightSun said:


> How many people are there around that can afford two Revenant Titans and a Phantom, and are allowed to use half-built models that aren't even on the board because everyone in store has a massive hard-on for WMD? Credit where it's due, the guy's nice, but it's everyone else that's the problem. Especially the massive obsession with Apocalyptic Explosions (the Str D one). Jesus damn I hate it - you _like_ removing your army in a single turn? Crazy person! Seriously, we need a Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies mechanic. It'd go down a storm.
> 
> Midnight


My group play quite a lot of Apoc, and like I said all our lists are fairly evenly balanced. Between the 15 of us there's about 30/40 super-heavies (Baneblade varients, Macharius's, Malcadors, Eldar Vampire whats-its, Ork Mega Dreds, An'ggrath, various Datasheet Forces, plus other stuff for Nids,Tau, etc), but not a single Titan.

We also don't have or would allow any of those silly lists that have 50 Chapter Masters, all - Orbital Bombardment lists that some idiots want to field...you know the ones:shok: Apoc is all about fun so waac'ers need not apply.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Ours is quite a balanced group, the last 100,000pts apoc game seemed to go well for both sides, and wallet makes no difference, one guy had reaver titans, wsrhounds, thunderhawks, all scratchbuilt, then the other side had plenty to rival it...again scratchbuilt


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

VanquisherMBT said:


> So nobody would bring any fliers


Someone did bring fliers whilst not owning an IA book. They looked to be around university age and the fliers weren't fully painted; I presume they got them recently and didn't have the cash to buy an IA book with them. Some of my friends, and I, when strapped for cash have gone and bought the models we need to play without getting the books. I'm looking to buy beastmen at the moment, and I currently have £8 to make do with to buy over £150 worth of stuff. The book wouldn't have been a priority if it wasn't for an opportunity to get one popping up today. Hell, I've been playing 40k for over five years now and still wouldn't own the main rule-book if it wasn't for the school club supplying the people who run it (Me  ) with the miniature rule books.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The majority of FW/Apoc players aren't dickheads, that's a given. But, just like anything else, it only takes ONE to be to ruin it for everyone else they meet.

Like Planetstrike (only maybe more so) you need prearranged details for Apoc, like a limit of Super Heavies, or whether you're trying for 'fluffy' lists or whatever. Whether non-Troops score etc. It's a lot more involved than merely points limit.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

@silens: as soon as you said he was university age you need not say more if he was "that" person haha, the great unwashed


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> The majority of FW/Apoc players aren't dickheads, that's a given. But, just like anything else, it only takes ONE to be to ruin it for everyone else they meet.
> 
> Like Planetstrike (only maybe more so) you need prearranged details for Apoc, like a limit of Super Heavies, or whether you're trying for 'fluffy' lists or whatever. Whether non-Troops score etc. It's a lot more involved than merely points limit.


That is indeed very true. And also why pick-up apocalypse games rarely work.


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