# vindicators



## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

are vindicators a form of artillery? what doe they do/whats thier purpose?


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

They are direct fire and need line of sight.

They are usally used by Marine Chapters as fortification smashers, think of them as 41st Millenium seige engines.


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

cool can they be used against enemy armour? or units etc?


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Oh lordy yes! Thats just the fluff about buildings. Its pretty good for both those targets.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

yeah, there isn't much a S10 AP2 Ordnance can't do.

they are also intimidating, and having a set of vindys on teh table is a good way to draw fire away from other places.

I just wish they had another gun, so that when their cannon gets destroyed, theyed still have something they could fire, like a pintle mounted heavy bolter or something.


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

nice!! i sort of assumed they were just 'sit back and enjoy the fireworks' tanks rather than 'jump in and maul them' ones!! pretty versatile then?i really want the set of 3 for my IW


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Capital letters are your friend. Do you normally exclude your friends from conversation?

They are not versatile. They are a very big gun and that is it. They can do one thing ,and that is blow up anything that is under their template, assuming they're lucky enough to survive to "24, which usually won't happen.


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## d'hargetezan (Mar 1, 2008)

Uber, do I detect a pang of regret for a previous battle? I am sorry for you. My past experience has been to just press on forward no matter what. We all take the chance of losing our tanks very quickly in the game, that's the price for having a very big gun, if it works out, a Str 10 AP2 gun will provide you with the best support the CSM can offer. Good luck.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

There is not. I am simply saying that they will not make it to a firing position in any game where they matter because if your opponent lets a Vindicator that close they are stupid and you would win anyway. They can be very useful at taking up obscene amounts of fire, particularly with PotMS, but you cannot expect them to fire even once in a normal game.

That is the vindicator's failing. It is so good at its given role that it becomes no good at its given role. It can more than pay for its points in keeping enemy fire away from your more important vehicles.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> There is not. I am simply saying that they will not make it to a firing position in any game where they matter because if your opponent lets a Vindicator that close they are stupid and you would win anyway. They can be very useful at taking up obscene amounts of fire, particularly with PotMS, but you cannot expect them to fire even once in a normal game.


Taking Daemonic Possession would probably help you with this problem quite a bit.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

I hardly ever get to fire my vindicators, it is true

1 year ago I discovered the Vindicator with POTMS combo, and since then they have never ever been shaken or stunned, they have always been destroyed, exploded or weapon destroyed on the first glancing hit.

whereas I can only ever destroy an opponents vehicle once every 7 games.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Taking Daemonic Possession would probably help you with this problem quite a bit.


Black Templars have unusually few Daemonic powers.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Using them out of LOS to protect your flank is nice, just set them down and let the intimidation work for you. I also enjoy using them to guard wide open spaces on the board, let the enemy walk into your line of fire keeping your tank hidden from fire (ie center of the board, objectives, fatal funnel areas created by terrain). If they dont enter the area then your resticting thier mobility and they have to worry about getting LOS to the tank and taking it out. Uber is right they are fragile/unpredictable for the battle field task they are assigned to do...

apologies for the double post, having computer problems


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Using them out of LOS to protect your flank is nice, just set them down and let the intimidation work for you. Its not the best use, howevere the tank isn't super points heavy either. They won't be deep striking Termies/Meqs in that area unless they sure they are sure they can disable the vehicle for its shooting phase.

I also enjoy using them to guard wide open spaces on the board, let the enemy walk into your line of fire keeping your tank hidden from fire (ie center of the board, objectives, fatal funnel areas created by terrain). If they don't enter the area then your resticting thier mobility and they have to worry about getting LOS to the tank and taking it out. Uber is right they are fragile/unpredictable for the battle field task they are assigned to do...


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

LandRaiderLove said:


> are vindicators a form of artillery? what doe they do/whats thier purpose?


Yeah artillery, they blast the crap out the enemy. :victory:


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## NiGhTloRd (Mar 17, 2008)

Vindicator inc Iron Warriors ...need i say more ......:victory:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Vindicators are rubbish. Kind of.

The demolisher cannon sounds really good but in practice it doesn't really kill very much stuff. Your opponent knows it's coming and spreads out. It scatters. It has to roll to wound and stuff gets a cover save. It's a joke against MCs and overkill against infantry. It has a short range. It has really bad armour for a tank that needs to go close to stuff. Imagine putting vindicators against falcons or gunfexes in buildings.

5th edition introduces some interesting changes. One of these is that you will deploy knowing who is going to get first turn and in this environment you can be very aggressive with the deployment of vindicators. If you know you are going second your opponent's whole army will be deployed so you ought to be able to hide the vindicator in a position where it will get to shoot effectively at enemy threats. 

You will be able to use it to impose a degree of control over areas of the board where certain unit types really won't want to go. The cover save thing for vehicles may mean that it spends a bit less of its time shaken.

The thing is, there are plenty of other units you could use for this job. A vindicator will very rarely get its points back in a single shot, but that's often what people expect of it.

I did actually have a vindicator in the marine army I took to the 1999 GT, where I got best general. Back then, right at the beginning of 3rd edition, it couldn't even move and shoot. I think it did well in a game against khorne but it didn't stand out much the rest of the time. Rather a lot of other things were different back then as well though.


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

uberschveinen said:


> Capital letters are your friend. Do you normally exclude your friends from conversation?


 lol eh?





d'hargetezan said:


> Uber, do I detect a pang of regret for a previous battle? I am sorry for you. My past experience has been to just press on forward no matter what. We all take the chance of losing our tanks very quickly in the game, that's the price for having a very big gun, if it works out, a Str 10 AP2 gun will provide you with the best support the CSM can offer. Good luck.


 well your tactic of pressing forward sounds like what id do! lol good advice!



uberschveinen said:


> There is not. I am simply saying that they will not make it to a firing position in any game where they matter because if your opponent lets a Vindicator that close they are stupid and you would win anyway. They can be very useful at taking up obscene amounts of fire, particularly with PotMS, but you cannot expect them to fire even once in a normal game.
> 
> That is the vindicator's failing. It is so good at its given role that it becomes no good at its given role. It can more than pay for its points in keeping enemy fire away from your more important vehicles.


 oh dear, you dont like them then i assume


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Vindicators are rubbish. Kind of.
> 
> The demolisher cannon sounds really good but in practice it doesn't really kill very much stuff. Your opponent knows it's coming and spreads out. It scatters. It has to roll to wound and stuff gets a cover save. It's a joke against MCs and overkill against infantry. It has a short range. It has really bad armour for a tank that needs to go close to stuff. Imagine putting vindicators against falcons or gunfexes in buildings.
> 
> ...


cheers someguy! thats was very helpful!, so, does that mean in a cityscape battlefied with plenty of cover it would be a useful weapon, but with harldy any cover it'd be shite? cos it would be targeted straight away?


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

i didnt realise id get this much feedback!! haha!


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

bl0203 said:


> Using them out of LOS to protect your flank is nice, just set them down and let the intimidation work for you. I also enjoy using them to guard wide open spaces on the board, let the enemy walk into your line of fire keeping your tank hidden from fire (ie center of the board, objectives, fatal funnel areas created by terrain). If they dont enter the area then your resticting thier mobility and they have to worry about getting LOS to the tank and taking it out. Uber is right they are fragile/unpredictable for the battle field task they are assigned to do...
> 
> apologies for the double post, having computer problems


 no worries about the double post. yeah thats a good tactic too! using the terrain as a bottle neck.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

LandRaiderLove said:


> cheers someguy! thats was very helpful!, so, does that mean in a cityscape battlefied with plenty of cover it would be a useful weapon, but with harldy any cover it'd be shite? cos it would be targeted straight away?


Vindicators aren't very good in city battles. They hate firing at enemies in cover where their AP, their only good point, is effectively negated. Enemies can often get close to them without ever being seen.

They need relatively open arcs of fire but somewhere to hide. They like it when big units of expensive enemies run towards them across open ground. This doesn't happen very much.

To clarify: I do not consider vindicators to be a viable choice. They do not work. Sometimes you get lucky and you blow up a unit of necrons or something, but it really doesn't happen much. If you field one then it's possible that your enemy will go for it straight away and kill it, but waste a lot of his firepower. Field 3 and they will fire, and your opponent will find that they just aren't all that scary.

Vindicators are a gamble that you just don't need to take. A predator with twin las turret and heavy bolter sponsons will kill *far* more of your enemies and is more practical against any target. A whirlwind is better against horde because it can hit most of the battlefield from out of sight. 

Don't take a unit that might get its points back one game in ten.


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Vindicators aren't very good in city battles. They hate firing at enemies in cover where their AP, their only good point, is effectively negated. Enemies can often get close to them without ever being seen.
> 
> They need relatively open arcs of fire but somewhere to hide. They like it when big units of expensive enemies run towards them across open ground. This doesn't happen very much.
> 
> ...


 hmmm, see i wanted to get a basilisk for my IW, but was told now the rules say they count as a vindicator. is that true? if not are the basilisks any better? or can IW have whirlwinds?


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

There is no Iron Warriors anymore, so no more Basilisks. It can still fly in Apocalypse but the Chaos Codex got all the fluff surgically removed from it. So the best IW you can do is take vindicators.

I'm not much of a fan of vehicles at all right now, and especially not vindicators. 24" range and 11 side armor makes them too easy to kill. As an Eldar player I could actually kite a Vindicator with a fast moving skimmer, like a Vyper, and fire repeatedly from outside its threat range (scatter laser side armor shots FTW).


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## sneakNINJA (Jan 24, 2008)

Vindicators are most helpful when you deploy them together. You want to use them in such a way that their front armor is always showing. They might kill a huge chunk of your opponent's army (but they usually don't, in my experience). They almost always have to get shot at as a result. They work fine for me as a SW player with an additional land raider (and two other WGBL's with Las Cannons at 1850) for heavy weapons fire. I don't know how they'd work just sitting around by themselves as a one-of (or possibly a two-of). 

My Chaos list uses 2 possessed vindicators with lash. It's pretty solid, but without the lashes I would probably consider defilers instead.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> Black Templars have unusually few Daemonic powers.


My apologies. That's probably the first utterly stupid post I've made here. I'll do my best not to bother you with another.

Katie D


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> My apologies. That's probably the first utterly stupid post I've made here. I'll do my best not to bother you with another.
> 
> Katie D


 lol!! aww! dw all information is valued here! haha!


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

oh dear!!!! i really liked vindicators!! i thought theyd be good for supporting the rest of my army!! oh yeah Absolute035, no more IW???? what erased from existence?


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## NiGhTloRd (Mar 17, 2008)

Hmmm no more IW in the new codex ... in theory .... but they are now regular CM pity tho as it was said above it means they can no longer drop one fast support for a extra heavy squad ... but i guess you still have heavy unit options ...i hope ?

Theres no reason why you couldnt still play as IW as far as i`m concerned ,,,just a cpl less options ...it only because the regular SM were getting to much of a hammering :OP


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

NiGhTloRd said:


> Hmmm no more IW in the new codex ... in theory .... but they are now regular CM pity tho as it was said above it means they can no longer drop one fast support for a extra heavy squad ... but i guess you still have heavy unit options ...i hope ?
> 
> Theres no reason why you couldnt still play as IW as far as i`m concerned ,,,just a cpl less options ...it only because the regular SM were getting to much of a hammering :OP


 lol good point! haha!


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

The idea of running vindicators with the lash of submission is a really good one. It negates the disadvantages of vindicator (short range and not being able to hide). I might even consider trying out a list based on this combo. Two Lash princes and 3 vindicators for the win? Maybe or maybe not.


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## LandRaiderLove (Mar 4, 2008)

Ubiquitous said:


> The idea of running vindicators with the lash of submission is a really good one. It negates the disadvantages of vindicator (short range and not being able to hide). I might even consider trying out a list based on this combo. Two Lash princes and 3 vindicators for the win? Maybe or maybe not.


 sorry for sounding like an arse! lol! whats a lash?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's a dumb and somewhat overrated psychic power for Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh. You can make a unit move to a designated point with it. It's good, but countering it isn't terribly difficult.

Slightly different note, in my experience, you can almost throw tactics to the wind with a vindicator. Just roll the sucker forward and let it be a bullet magnet while your Rhinos advance behind it (thus taking advantage of its AV13 front). People are scared stupid by demolisher cannons for some inexplicable reason, even though they're really no better than any other ordinance weapon in most cases. They do the same thing to most infantry as a battle cannon, after all. I'm always amazed by how much fire gets diverted away from things that are far more threatening (such as, say, my Rhinos, loaded with assault-happy Space Marines with True Grit) to deal with the Vindicator. For 133 points (extra armour, smokes) it's really a steal. And when it happens to do something besides blow my own troops up (mine has earned the nickname "Lucky" locally because it's killed more of my men than anyone elses'...) then that's just a plus.


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## heliosmj12 (Mar 30, 2008)

2nd best weapon in the game and its limited to 24 inches, hmmm


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