# Grey Knights who've turned on the Imperium



## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

So I'm starting a Grey Knights army and decided i really liked a black color scheme. Which would naturally lean towards evil so i began to write the fluff for them. Long story short, does this sort of thing sound plausible? Very few knights (all power armoured variants) turned away from the Grey Knights because of the extreme nature of the way they acted killing innocents all to 'save the future'. 

They saw this as wrong, twisting this to never see anything come out of it but murder. They then turned renegade, vowing to become true knights of valor and defend the innocent against the Grey Knights themselves. They do not serve Chaos, but rather fight against the Grey Knights and every once in awhile some will leave the Grey Knights to join them. Their war is only against the Grey Knights and any who support their brutal 'murderous' ways. 

Whatcha guys think? Does this sound at any way plausible?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Don't think it fits with the fluff.... but I also wouldn't care. If you think it sounds vaguely plausible and think it'll be fun then go for it.

Then again I'm planning a Sons of Malice CSM army of Grey Knights: falling to chaos to get power to fight chaos (Malal/Malice is the 5th chaos god/daemon who is meant to represent chaos's tendency to destroy itself). I expect that for fluff purists my army will have to be 'stolen' armour used by CSM for ironic purposes, but I am going to have enormous fun converting all the inquisitorial units (or other imperium stuff) into being chaotic, or having grey knight models suddenly bursting into a greater daemon


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Not at all really. 

Regular Astartes are already heavily indoctrinated and monitored, it's why so few of them turn. Grey Knights would have ever more stringent checks and comprehensive indoctrination. 

Their premise for turning renegade is very flimsy. They don't like civillian deaths? Seriously. This is the forty first millenium where man fights tooth and nail against the horrors of the galaxy. They can't afford sentimentality. These are Astartes, raised and indoctrinated to kill since childhood. They have no compunctions about civilian casualties. The Grey Knights especially would know this, knowing that any citizen could fall to chaos or unleash a daemonic threat. One facet of their role is to guard humanity from itself, sometimes the innocent must perish to achieve this. 

Any Grey Knight who did turn (which has never yet happened) would be killed by his fellow or hunted down. There is no way they could escape notice, not the ways in which they're deployed. 

Where are your Grey Knights getting their equipment and supplies from? Why have they not been hunted down yet? Why do they only fight the Grey Knights, what a waste of time and impractical mission. 

I don't mean to sound too harsh but it's such an implausible and impractical scenario. 

If you want black Grey Knights paint them black. A dark, blackish grey colour used to be their old colour scheme.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

Dude, it's your fluff, it doesn't matter whether it's plausible or not. You're writing it for you, for your enjoyment and for the sake of the army that you're throwing money into. 

Do it.


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

I say go for it. =)

I also say...BURN THE HERETIC!!


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Yet another one of these threads? Some people do have a weird obsession with going all 'dark-side'. Just paint them black and be done with it. Going down the, "it could be fluffy" route is all okay when you're only doing it for yourself and a few like-minded friends. It's when you to try to convince everyone else that it is going to fall apart.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

oiad said:


> Yet another one of these threads? Some people do have a weird obsession with going all 'dark-side'. Just paint them black and be done with it. Going down the, "it could be fluffy" route is all okay when you're only doing it for yourself and a few like-minded friends. It's when you to try to convince everyone else that it is going to fall apart.


:goodpost: 

This. It does not fit with canon at all. There`s nothing to stop you from saying what you wish however. It is your hobby after all.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Black != evil. You can have tons of "Grey" nights that are painted differing shades of paint, but it wouldn't change their nature. A rose by any other name...


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

To reiterate, if the OP wanted to just paint them black then by all means do so. But they don't need to convince everyone with a controversial back-story to explain why.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Not entirely sure why Black has to be the Dark Side - after all the original colour of the Grey Knights was Black.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

oiad said:


> To reiterate, if the OP wanted to just paint them black then by all means do so. But they don't need to convince everyone with a controversial back-story to explain why.


Agreed.

Fluffwise evil/renegade GK doesn't work as they are explictedly stated to have never lost a member.
Fluffwise black armoured GK are iffy but can easily be justified as covert ops or whatever.

Black =/= Evil. So paint them black and be done with it.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Until GW says they can go rogue, the official line is that they don't. With that being said, it's your fluff, go with it. Just don't expect many of us to be saying "Oh man, great stuff. Have fun dude! I totally believe it!"


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nothing iffy about Black Armoured Grey Knights whatsoever.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Xela said:


> Very few knights (all power armoured variants) turned away from the Grey Knights because of the extreme nature of the way they acted killing innocents all to 'save the future'.
> 
> They saw this as wrong, twisting this to never see anything come out of it but murder. They then turned renegade, vowing to become true knights of valor and defend the innocent against the Grey Knights themselves. They do not serve Chaos, but rather fight against the Grey Knights and every once in awhile some will leave the Grey Knights to join them. Their war is only against the Grey Knights and any who support their brutal 'murderous' ways.


This is alarmingly parallel to fluff from Fallout 3, the video game, where a group of knights from the Brotherhood of Steel (who are, incidentally, grey-armoured) turn away from the Brotherhood because they do not approve of their methods, paint their armour black, and become Outcasts, following the "true" Brotherhood code. True, this "true" code is less moral than the new idea (which was making the area a better place instead of just harvesting tech) but the parallel remains.

Most curious.

Anyway, as long as you justify yourself very well (maybe even have brothers elected as "Chaplains" to show their faith in humanity but not the Grey Knights) and try not to fight Imperial Guard too often, then I'd accept that. :laugh:


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I am with the others who cry foul on flimsy fluff. if you want to paint them black, go ahead and do so. As several others have pointed out the original color scheme for the Grey knights was black anyway so you would be within the realms of archaic cannon. I for one don't think your fluff is plausible because it is completely contrary to the established background in the codex. Do what you want, but don't expect everyone to like it.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Do what you want. It's your army and your money and spare time you are putting in to this. Even if it isn't plausible with current cannon, who gives a shit? It won't affect anyone who thinks it isn't possible. Hell, even you probably know it isn't possible, but oh well, write what you want and if it sounds cool then awesome 

I'd like to read what you come up with. Even if there was no chance of it ever happening, it could still be a good read.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Black is a more than acceptable color for grey knights. In fact, I believe the only reason they were moved away from black to begin with was to differ them from Deathwatch.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Fluffwise evil/renegade GK doesn't work as they are explictedly stated to have never lost a member.


... so they say 

But yeah, the golden rule may have been downgraded to more of a suggestion, but its still worth following: this is a game and it is there for people to have fun with. Do what you like, and if people come up and tell you you can't do anything, pity them and their narrow minded boringness.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gally912 said:


> In fact, I believe the only reason they were moved away from black to begin with was to differ them from Deathwatch.


Or, to actually make the Grey Knights, well, um, grey? :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If I was doing a grey knights army I would of done it in black as I loved the original colour scheme.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Em? I would tend to find the fluff of grey knights going renegade more plausible than the fluff about Draigo setting grandpa nurgle's bush on fire etc etc. Go for it, but like others said, expect dickheads to tell you that your grey knights shouldn't be black, but then you can shove the previously posted image of black grey knights right up their ass, creating the infinitely feared Brown knights :rofl:


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

You could always make them an order within the GK's that frowns upon the others, and there dabbling with sorcery, and what not. There still based on Titan, and still fight demons, but not alongside the other orders in the GK.

I.E. They only fight with other Black Armored GK's to protect thier souls, or some such. 

I don't think that breaks canon/fluff to badly.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The GK are mankind's only trump card against Chaos in that they will never turn not even if they're in the very realm of the Chaos powers.

Good grief you guys need to give the Imperium something Chaos can't touch lol.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The GK are mankind's only trump card against Chaos in that they will never turn not even if they're in the very realm of the Chaos powers.
> 
> Good grief you guys need to give the Imperium something Chaos can't touch lol.


I did, I just gave the GK's some inner order fueding. Thats not falling to chaos, thats politics.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I meant to the OP and any others with a similar viewpoint.

Inner order feuding leads to Chaos I would think.

It's how some Inquisitors turn.

And the GK are closer together than any other Chapter I would imagine given their unique background and training so for them to turn against one another again is something I don't ever see happening.

in b4 someone owns me with fluff saying otherwise.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

is it plausible to have grey knights that have turn on the imperium? No, is it possible that they were another secret order who for all intents and purposes were the original but ultimately failed attempt at making grey knights? yes/maybe. This is 40K you can do anything to fit the fluff but if you want to be original think outside the fluff, grey knights dont fall! well why not? what a better way to get something right then to have tried it before and failed. so in the OP's case his grey knights pre-date the original grey knights by a few years but went rouge.
but failing that just paint them grey and if anyone asks just say these dudes are wearing the original armour colour. I also prefer my dark angels black as im not too keen on that green they use,but i also like space wolves to be grey rather than duck egg blue.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Not entirely sure why Black has to be the Dark Side - after all the original colour of the Grey Knights was Black.





Vaz said:


> Nothing iffy about Black Armoured Grey Knights whatsoever.


Oh yeah, it looks great. In fact my own Grey Knights are based somewhat on it. If others want to do the same then as said, go for it. But as interesting as the picture is, it is just an old *concept piece* that never made it anywhere, except for an issue of White Dwarf (#257). It's amusing how many people have fallen into believing it's actually canonical. The way the Garro novels are heading seems to indicate they've had grey 'unpainted' armour since their inception.

As for the 'Black = Dark-side' it's just a sly metaphor for anyone turning rebellious, as with the OP's story. Really didn't think people would get so confused by it.


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

you could say they have went and infiltrated another legion to maybe do a chaos primarch in or something like that


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

@Oiad given that the black colour scheme was the one used in their Index Astartes article (the series of which is canon) i would say it is fact canonical to some degree. It's not just a concept piece.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

In the 40k universe I thought the painting armour in red was the sign of a traitor?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

oiad said:


> But as interesting as the picture is, it is just an old *concept piece* that never made it anywhere, except for an issue of White Dwarf (#257). It's amusing how many people have fallen into believing it's actually canonical. The way the Garro novels are heading seems to indicate they've had grey 'unpainted' armour since their inception.


Bollocks.

Games Workshop published material, it's Canon.


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

aren't the exorcists supposed to be grey knight successors or something. You could try painting them up as 'experimental' successor chapter to satisfy the fluff zealots


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I say go for it mate, I just down right refuse to accept they are incorruptable. Everyone has a price!

With regards to your fluff this sounds a bit like my original Idea for my CSM army.

Originally they were all going to be Grey Knights who fell to Chaos because the real secret of the Grey Knights is that they lose members all the time, it's just kept so tightly guarded no one knows about it - Infact one of Draigo's goals is to scour the warp and eliminate these before they even get a chance to do anything dangerous. After all how would you explain that the Purest most Dedicated and powereful war engine than Humanity has to offer is just that - Human.

Other than that I wanted my Chaos Sorcerors to secretly be former Eldar Farseers who succamb to chaos and decided to become space marines instead. 

Around about this point in explainning my concept I had a congregation of people ready to burn me at the stake and one kid was in tears. I'm pretty sure they were all just Jelly-Mad that I had come up with some totally amazing and original fluff for my force.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Exorcists are normal marines that have been purposely exposed to the warp and then purified with the idea they are now more resistant to chaos.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Ardias26 said:


> aren't the exorcists supposed to be grey knight successors or something. You could try painting them up as 'experimental' successor chapter to satisfy the fluff zealots


The Exorcists are strictly speaking a codex chapter in practice (as per C:SM and IA:10) but it's not a bad idea to create your own. k:



Vaz said:


> Bollocks.
> 
> Games Workshop published material, it's Canon.


So going by that we can still treat the Squats as canon too. Awesome. 

Okay, perhaps I overdid it but saying it's in line with recent canon is a stretch too. The picture identifies those Grey Knights as M41 marines but it doesn't really fit in with the M41 Grey Knights we know now. Since that picture was published there have been two codices and amongst a dozens other releases. IIRC, not one that says/shows the Grey Knights in black as standard. So the it's either an idea that was quickly retconned or what it's looks like what – a designer's rough schematic/sketch for the then to be released 3E codex.

There is one bit of GK lore that talks about the GKs in alternative colours. Apparently, they once had to requisite armour from other chapters during the in the Thule Decimation and then went into battle without repainting them. Following a similar idea could give someone fluffy reasons to paint them a different colour. Though what with G:GK saying the chapter now has nearly enough armour for every marine it may be tricky to still justify.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Shame Exorcists are red tbh, I like the underlying idea of them but I hate painting red.


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> In the 40k universe I thought the painting armour in red was the sign of a traitor?


What about earlier incarnations of medics then, they painted part of their armour red after administrating their first battlefield transfusion. Does doing that make them heretics then?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

No but from the heresy you had Word Bearers and to some degree the World Eaters painting their armour red as a sign of their treachery, the Red Corsairs changed their armour to read, the Dragon Warriors turned their armour red, just seems to be a common occurrence.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Paint your Grey Knights black and call them renegades if you want. People that don't like it need to get lives.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Paint your Grey Knights black and call them renegades if you want. People that don't like it need to get lives.


That's just the thing.

If the fluff matters (and why else would you post here) then painting them black and calling them renegades goes directly against what GW have said on the subject. 
If the fluff doesn't matter then paint them black because black GK are cool, but why bother posting here and why call them renegades?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That's just the thing.
> 
> If the fluff matters (and why else would you post here) then painting them black and calling them renegades goes directly against what GW have said on the subject.
> If the fluff doesn't matter then paint them black because black GK are cool, but why bother posting here and why call them renegades?


I assume one would post here looking for feedback on one's ideas in this case.

The fluff matters because it's cool, but what doesn't matter is making sure that it's treated like the Bible.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> I'm planning a Sons of Malice CSM army of Grey Knights: falling to chaos to get power to fight chaos (Malal/Malice is the 5th chaos god/daemon who is meant to represent chaos's tendency to destroy itself). I expect that for fluff purists my army will have to be 'stolen' armour used by CSM for ironic purposes, but I am going to have enormous fun converting all the inquisitorial units...





Tim/Steve said:


> I expect that for fluff purists my army will have to be 'stolen' armour used by CSM for ironic purposes, but...





Tim/Steve said:


> used by CSM for ironic purposes, but...





Tim/Steve said:


> ironic purposes


Waaaaaaaaait a second.. so you have an army of HIPSTERS!??!


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> Waaaaaaaaait a second.. so you have an army of HIPSTERS!??!


Yeah man. See the grey knights are really just a representation of the pseudo-intellectual gestappo who work within the system to make the system a system of systems. They are so what the 1990's were to the 1980's and the 1980's to the 1970's. Clearly by turning to chaos they have made the statement that individuality comes from being part of a group.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think this should be in the games section. For fluff wise there's only one way to look at it. A Grey knight who turns isn't a Grey Knight. He's just a chaos space marine. If you paint him black then he's part of the Black Legion of Abbaddon. Grey Knights don't turn. I'm pretty sure Alaric solidified that with driving himself insane instead of being turned. Most others in that situation just die or if your Kaldor Draigo you proceed to John Woo your way out.


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

I had no idea the thread would become so big.... lol


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

oiad said:


> The Exorcists are strictly speaking a codex chapter in practice (as per C:SM and IA:10) but it's not a bad idea to create your own. k:
> 
> 
> So going by that we can still treat the Squats as canon too. Awesome.


They are canon... They were eaten by Tyranids, and have reappeared as the Demiurg, an alien race under the protection of the Tau Empire.



> Okay, perhaps I overdid it but saying it's in line with recent canon is a stretch too. The picture identifies those Grey Knights as M41 marines but it doesn't really fit in with the M41 Grey Knights we know now. Since that picture was published there have been two codices and amongst a dozens other releases. IIRC, not one that says/shows the Grey Knights in black as standard. So the it's either an idea that was quickly retconned or what it's looks like what – a designer's rough schematic/sketch for the then to be released 3E codex.


Actually the armour is MkVI which is as close as immediately post-Heresy as sod it is to swearing, and they invariably had earlier access to it that the newly formed Space Marine Chapters, while the Terminator Armour is also of a similar age.

The canon, much as we don't like it, is still canon. While the Grey Knights shown is them in their silver armour - doesn't mean to say that there are no longer Brotherhoods with the Black Armour. The Codex is hardly a complete encyclopedia.



> There is one bit of GK lore that talks about the GKs in alternative colours. Apparently, they once had to requisite armour from other chapters during the in the Thule Decimation and then went into battle without repainting them. Following a similar idea could give someone fluffy reasons to paint them a different colour. Though what with G:GK saying the chapter now has nearly enough armour for every marine it may be tricky to still justify.


You would then be recreating the Thule Decimation, not the Black Armoured Space Marines.


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