# They broke the Hammerhead!! (New Codex or errata please?)



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Allright, I guess most of you are wary seeing the thread title and waiting for the "cry wolf" punchline. But now that 5th edition is out, *something has gone horribly, horribly wrong with the Hammerhead.*

I have looked, and found no errata on this. *Now, I want your opinion as to what you would have done, as the Tau's opponent in this situation:*

In 4th edition, a Hammerhead could move 12" and fire 1 weapon. _If you bought a Multi-Tracker, you could fly the same distance and fire all weapons._

In 5th edition, it seems, you will be able to _fire only 1 weapon irrelevant of having a Multi-Tracker or not.
_

So what is supposed to be of the Hammerhead now? As I see it, these are the options a Tau player has:

a)you don't use it, and use a few Broadsides or a Sky Ray instead.
b)you pay the _old points cost_ and _use the old rules_ in this case
c)you _reduce the points cost_ of the Hammerhead (but by how much?) and _use the new rules_
d)don't agree with your opponent, have a fight, and leave the battlefield you meticulously put up and go home before turn 1.


Logically, we can guess that as soon as a new Tau Codex comes out, the Hammerhead will be fixed by either:

a)it gets cheaper
b)the Multi-Tracker wording is changed to allow for 12" move + fire all weapons.

Please discuss. Or rectify me if I somehow interpreted the rules wrong!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Same goes for a lot of tanks. A Predator with heavy bolter sponsons can no longer move 6" and fire them, a Leman russ can't move 6" and fire it's heavy bolters ( though they did get the turret thing )
Chimera's, same story.. pretty much every tank that had S5 defensive weapons now can no longer do this, at least you can move 6" and still fire with all weapons.


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## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

I wouldn't say that it's entirely broken. I mean, tossing a railgun on a Hammerhead gives you some ridiculous range advantage that is useful enough even if you are restricted to 6" in movement. I'm not entirely sure on the rules, despite my friend fielding Tau, but something like that is nothing to ignore.

I would say just adapt your strategy to the new codex. If it becomes such an anchor in your current set up then use points on other units. I suppose it is trouble if you arn't using railguns but they force me to be much more cautious with my advancing tanks. I'd _love_ to move 12" and fire the full fury of my Land Raider, but it just can't happen.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Chimera's, same story.. pretty much every tank that had S5 defensive weapons now can no longer do this, at least you can move 6" and still fire with all weapons.


Yes, but here is a critical difference: The Chimera's dropped around 20 points in the new Imperial Guard codex. (Don't know about the Predator, I haven't seen the SM codex since 4th)

As we all know, there is no 5th edition codex for Tau...

My point is, as it stands now, a Hammerhead costs too many points for what it does. Besides, it is fundamentally wrong to see Tau technology get _less_ effective as time passes, only more expensive.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Holmstrom said:


> If it becomes such an anchor in your current set up then use points on other units.


Indeed I would do this, but...

I hate Broadsides with a burning passion, and the Sky Ray isn't exactly effective...

The only option I have, probably, is fielding nothing but Devilfishes and Sky Rays, all kitted out with seeker missiles - which in turn forces me to grab throngs of markerlight users - which inevitably sees to it that I will play with almost the exact same army list for the next X years. :shok:

EDIT: AH, sorry for that double post


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## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

Well...What set up do you use on your Hammerhead? 72" range on a railgun is rediculous and at S10 probably should be expensive. However if you use missile pods which have significantly less range I think making the Hammerhead hull cheap but having expensive railguns could be more fair.

Removed text. Too many points costs details. Totals are fine, per item is not - The Wraithlord. So a Predator will be no more than 165 points, perhaps 130 on average.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Holmstrom said:


> Well...What set up do you use on your Hammerhead? 72" range on a railgun is rediculous and at S10 probably should be expensive. However if you use missile pods which have significantly less range I think making the Hammerhead hull cheap but having expensive railguns could be more fair.
> 
> Predators are 60 points. +45 to replace the autocannon with a TL Lascannon, +25 for heavy bolter sponsons and +60 for sponson lascannons. So a Predator will be no more than 165 points, perhaps 130 on average.


I usually use at least 1 HH with Railgun and 1 with Ion Cannon, and the last slot either goes into a Sky Ray or 3x Sniper Drone teams. And since Tau don't have anything listed as "defensive weapons" it counts as having 1-3 main weapons (?)

By the way, HH can't have Missile Pods, but Forge World has one which you have to ask your opponent to use..

EDIT: Forgot to mention; A Devilfish (with drones) costs 80pts. A barebone HH with _nothing_ costs 95pts. Railgun is 60 pts


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## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

Yeah sorry about that, I'm not a Tau player...hah. Just looked up the Ion cannon and see its 60" range...My friend just has one with an annoying railgun but considering the weapon range, I'm not sure. Weapons like that should be pricey to me.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

i wouldnt worry to much. the Railhead is the best tank ingame without any competition at all. So not being able to fire 6 str5 shots a turn isnt to much of a problem.

*waiting for guard players to put up an arguement*


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Well, for Witchunters, a CHIMERA costs 85 points. Rhino's 50.

Chimera's for the IG are cheaper, which is quite logical for a flimsy tank as it is.
It barely has any guns worth mentioning.
Any 'heavy' tanks are all just as expensive as your hammerhead with it's railgun.
And those all suffer from the same problem.
Kit a demolisher with side sponson heavy bolters, and it won't be able to fire them unless it's stationary.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Our local group just decided to make the Devilfish 25% cheaper and Hammerhead 10% cheaper, as well as many other vehicles for other armies.

We logically came to the conclusion that since the only vehicle that the Space Marines have *that didn't* go down in points cost is the Land Raider, and it gained a new rule that has it firing 2 weapons instead of 1 at 12" move, it must be because of these new movement rules that most tanks dropped and therefore we decided to drop all tank's points cost by a sane amount.

Of course, this is just our group. You should talk to the people you play regularly with if this is something you feel affected by:biggrin:


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## Audun54 (Jul 24, 2009)

about the IG tanks, doesnt the leman russ have the lumbering behemoth rule which allows it to fire all weapons if moving under 6"?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Audun54 said:


> about the IG tanks, doesnt the leman russ have the lumbering behemoth rule which allows it to fire all weapons if moving under 6"?


All I know is it got 1 more side armor since last edition, but I think my IG opponent fired all weapons when he moved only a little in my match this week.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Wait, moving at cruising speed you can't fire _any_ weapons unless your fast.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

From what I have heard about hammerhead rail guns you should be able to do pretty well just firing the rail gun and I don't believe a hammerhead is all that pricey anyways.


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## Ste (Aug 28, 2008)

LR can fire its turret i think if it moves less than "6 due to 'Lumbering Behemoth'

I'm not 100%


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Asmodeun said:


> Wait, moving at cruising speed you can't fire _any_ weapons unless your fast.


Indeed, and the Hammerhead can count as fast for shooting purpouses, but
now in 5th, that means 1 weapon fires when it moved 6"-12" instead of all of them.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Lumbering behemoth basically means you can fire you turret gun on top of any other shooting allowances you'd get for moving 6", so basically you can fire your turret gun and 1 other weapon.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Hammerheads are CHEAP for what they do. Stop using rubbish Ion Cannons, and suck it up. Try giving a _Falcon_ weaponry, jeez...

Also, can we please stop throwing out points values, huh?


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

The King is right. Hammerheads are waaaay to fucking cheap for the most powerfull gun in the game that hits with frustrating accuracy (3+ without markerlights isn't it?) spare a thought for the dozens of other units that have been hit far harder by 5th ed.

Genestealers could once rip into land raiders, not anymore since they made rending shit.

Thornback and symbiote rippers are now redundant

Predators with 2xheavy bolters and an autocannon can't move and fire all weapons anymore.

Aspiring champions, nobs, sargents, and anything else with a powerfist is down one attack from last edition.

If your game group has agreed to play with reduced points then thats your decision, but don't be suggesting it should be the norm for the rest of us.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

To clarify Leman Russ, and all it's variants, they all have the lumbering behemoth rule.
It is as follows.

Whem moving up to 6", A leman russ may fire it's turret, in addition to any other weapons it can fire, even if the turret is ordnance. So when stationary, it can fire it's ordnance turret, it's hull weapon and it's sponson weapons and any defensive weapons it might have ( storm bolter or heavy stubber if you upgraded it with one of these )
When moving up to 6", it can fire it's turret, and 1 other weapon and all defensive weapons.
When it wants to move full speed, it does not move up to 12", instead it moves up to 6 + 1d6 inch.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

KarlFranz40k said:


> If your game group has agreed to play with reduced points then thats your decision, but don't be suggesting it should be the norm for the rest of us.


I didn't. I suggested people who felt they too had this problem (Falcon/ Fire Prism/ Devilfish/ Hammerhead users for example) would try getting the same kind of deal since the new movement rules are the reason all tanks it affects have become cheaper.

And nearly 200 points for a hammerhead is cheap? What are you drinking? It's a 13/12/11 armor value skimmer. A Land Raider is 225 points and it's capable of MUCH more destruction than a Hammerhead, in addition it's 14/14/14 AND has the machine spirit!


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> And nearly 200 points for a hammerhead is cheap? What are you drinking? It's a 13/12/11 armor value skimmer. A Land Raider is 225 points and it's capable of MUCH more destruction than a Hammerhead, in addition it's 14/14/14 AND has the machine spirit!


There is no reason to field a Hammerhead over 165 pts (and I think the huge range on the rail gun makes being "fast" overrated anyway) and unless I am very much mistaken, the only Land Raider that cheap is the Chaos one, which doesn't have Power of the Machine Spirit.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The easy answer to getting fixing this problem with your Hammerheads without making up any rules is as follows: Roll with the changes. There are plenty of vehicles that are overpriced right now because of the changes to vehicle rules, yet you'll find that some of them, like the Eldar still manage to perform admirably in even the most competitive environments. Forget that you used to be able to move 12" and let fly with all your guns. Those days are dead and gone. Just give the Hammerhead a multi-tracker so you can move 6" and still fire all your weapons. A lot of the time you don't need to move the full 12" anyway since you can just take a disruption pod for cover saves. The Hammerhead is still easily one of the most deadly tanks in the entire game.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Forget that you used to be able to move 12" and let fly with all your guns. Those days are dead and gone.


Aha yes, the submissive way of doing it :biggrin:

But yeah, I don't expect every person I play to agree.

And a correction to the 6 words at the end of the quote: "Those days are dead and gone _until Tau gets updated_". Just like they were for the Imperial Guard, Orks and Space Marines. Besides, Tau aren't known to evolve backwards :wink:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Aha yes, the submissive way of doing it :biggrin:


It's really your only option as far as remaining official goes.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> It's really your only option as far as remaining official goes.


Correct. But seeing as I play in a group with basic common sense and where we frequently agree to amend the rules - there is no problem here.

An example; one of our old house rules from 3rd edition is now present in the 5th edition; Ramming. Another example; we still use area terrain, but only in cityfights. And I let the Imperial Guard player here pay less for his Storm Troopers and he lowers the AP on the hellgun.

It's a dynamic group, and I like to think were having more fun with the game than perfectly squared players content on using every rule and using every unit GW breaks between new rule book --> new codex.

However, if I were to go to a tournament I'd suck it up, no problem k:


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Oh dear, your _rail gun_ can only move 6" and shoot.

You still have a better combination of firepower and mobility than many armies can ever hope to achieve.


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## Majin (Jun 21, 2009)

besides u still get this annoying disruption field for 5 points not so bad at all ...


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## Cpt. Loken (Sep 7, 2008)

remove the tau race from 40k! I HATE TAU SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH!:angry:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

You have to remember though, the Railhead and Fireknife/Fireblade Crisis suits are the only good things Tau have access too. The rest is pure filth.


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## Honking_Elephant (May 8, 2008)

This is just my opinion, I don't think changing points cots for vehicles is a good idea at all, even if the rules change, because everybody has to deal with it, making it fair. Yes armies get updated codex's so any perceived downsides to vehicles are removed, so that it fits better with the current rule set, but any advantages are also lost, the fact that Tau vehicles get a cover save if they don't move, for such a low points cots is ridiculous. Beside the point somewhat, if a hammerhead with a railgun is able to fire everything, therefore reasonably close to enemy troops, your probably doing it wrong. With a 72" range you can sit around at the back of an army and splat stuff, but I digress, rule changes are inevitable, so just roll with the shots, if you want to change points costs in such a sweeping manner, that is your choice, I just think its a bad one, Honk


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Orochi said:


> You have to remember though, the Railhead and Fireknife/Fireblade Crisis suits are the only good things Tau have access too. The rest is pure filth.


.... This may win the award for Least Correct TSatement I Have Ever Read On These Boards.

Congratulations.

You know what DOESN'T scare my main army? Hammerheads or Crisis Suits. It's all about those damn mounted Fire Warriors.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Cole Deschain said:


> .... This may win the award for Least Correct TSatement I Have Ever Read On These Boards.
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> You know what DOESN'T scare my main army? Hammerheads or Crisis Suits. It's all about those damn mounted Fire Warriors.


This may win the Award for the most narrow-minded Statement I have Ever Read On These Boards.

Congratulations.

Just because they don't Scare you, doesn't mean it doesn't scare others.

:taunt:


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Orochi said:


> This may win the Award for the most narrow-minded Statement I have Ever Read On These Boards.
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> ...


Whatever scares you, it's probably linked to the army type you got.

He's an Ork player, maybe he'd be "scared" of the hammerhead if the Tau opponent would use some markerlights to help spamming submunitions... If they don't, they're oblivious as how to use them against Orks. Nothing more fun than reducing a 30 man ork unit down to 8 "men" on the first turn 

And maybe the Tau opponent doesn't frequently use Crisis suits with Twin-linked flamers and Burst Cannons either against him :wink:

And then there's you, probably got loads of armor, which a Hammerhead is perfect for. But, even better would be Broadsides (I never use them because they're ugly)


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Orochi said:


> This may win the Award for the most narrow-minded Statement I have Ever Read On These Boards.


Calling every other thing in their vast and varied arsenal garbage is vastly more narrow-minded than anything I could have ever said.



> Just because they don't Scare you, doesn't mean it doesn't scare others.



If you _believe_ this, then your initial post is patently fallacious.

For your own reasons turn into your bosom.



> :taunt:


Oh how cute, he wants to play.

You lose.

Good day, sir.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Cole Deschain said:


> If you _believe_ this, then your initial post is patently fallacious.


Why's that, exactly? I see no fallacy when he says that what threatens his army and "scares" him as a player might be different from what does the same to you. Are you of the opinion that anyone who thinks differently than yourself is wrong, or am I missing something?


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Why do i see this thread ending in a flame war......:shok:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Why do i see this thread ending in a flame war......:shok:


Not on my watch. :wink:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

This thread is fucking funny, although I don't see any posts fallating each other...(Ms Drake, please feel free to edit that out, it's mainly for your benefit, since I reckon you'll agree it's funny *crosses fingers*)

Anyway, Orochi merely called a spade a spade, that's why I like him. Most options in most Dexes are shit. Always have been, always will, it sells more toy soldiers revolving what's good. Deal with it. The best anti-tank Falcon is 200 points, a HH is 165, apparently. HH has better BS, and will neuter the Falcon in two/three shots every time. Falcon can do shit all to the HH. Deal.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> This thread is fucking funny, although I don't see any posts fallating each other...(Ms Drake, please feel free to edit that out, it's mainly for your benefit, since I reckon you'll agree it's funny *crosses fingers*)
> 
> Anyway, Orochi merely called a spade a spade, that's why I like him. Most options in most Dexes are shit. Always have been, always will, it sells more toy soldiers revolving what's good. Deal with it. The best anti-tank Falcon is 200 points, a HH is 165, apparently. HH has better BS, and will neuter the Falcon in two/three shots every time. Falcon can do shit all to the HH. Deal.


Yet people still whine.


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## Dezartfox (Jan 19, 2008)

Hammerheads are one of the best tanks going, give them a Multi Tracker and Disruption pod and you can move 12" over terrain, fire a S10 shot and get a 4+ cover save. that reduces the amount of hits your HH will take by half. Or you can move 6" and fire both the railgun and SMS. They have side armour 12 too, which a lot of people overlook. they're better armoured than any SM vehicles (except LR). 
Russ's are no problem to out-manoeuvre and their S8 cannon needs 5's to glance the front armour.
Only thing they've struggled against is the Eldar, they're the only vehicle that can really match them.

I don't know why people are complaining about them being bad...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Dezartfox said:


> Hammerheads are one of the best tanks going, give them a Multi Tracker and Disruption pod and you can move 12" over terrain, fire a S10 shot and get a 4+ cover save. that reduces the amount of hits your HH will take by half. Or you can move 6" and fire both the railgun and SMS. They have side armour 12 too, which a lot of people overlook. they're better armoured than any SM vehicles (except LR).
> Russ's are no problem to out-manoeuvre and their S8 cannon needs 5's to glance the front armour.
> Only thing they've struggled against is the Eldar, they're the only vehicle that can really match them.
> 
> I don't know why people are complaining about them being bad...


Exactly, I don't know why OP thinks that not being able to move 12" and fire ALL YOUR GUNS makes the HH terrible.
Moving 12" and firing the most powerful non-blast weapon in the game is a GODSEND.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Exactly, I don't know why OP thinks that not being able to move 12" and fire ALL YOUR GUNS makes the HH terrible.
> Moving 12" and firing the most powerful non-blast weapon in the game is a GODSEND.


Remember that the Fire Prism and Falcon _are_ fast, they don't just act like they are.

And I am not complaining about the HH being underpowered, I am merely suggesting that now it can't move 12" and fire all weapons, like it could in 4th edition, and the point cost in the codex does not reflect that...

As I've already said, what goes around comes around. And in my group we've already lowered the pts cost of most tanks, not just the HH. And the HH was one of the tanks that went down the least.

Happy birthday by the way :grin: (although a little late)


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Remember that the Fire Prism and Falcon _are_ fast, they don't just act like they are.
> 
> And I am not complaining about the HH being underpowered, I am merely suggesting that now it can't move 12" and fire all weapons, like it could in 4th edition, and the point cost in the codex does not reflect that...
> 
> ...


lol they don't need to lower the point cost's the tanks are still amazing!! The fact people are mad about something that was broken in the first place was taken away hurts my mind.

This is the same argument as me saying "WoW shame landraider can't move 12 and fire all its weapons!"


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Happy birthday by the way :grin: (although a little late)


Thanks 

But really, I don't see how the HH is overcosted.
You're paying for a Skimmer, with a Railgun, with Submunitions.
Submunitions may not be the best, but it's still great!
The Railgun is incredibly powerful even without Submunitions.
And the vehicle does come with Targetting Array by default, so that is factored into the cost.

6" movement and firing all 2-3 guns is plenty though, I don't understand how it could not be enough.
If you're moving 12", then you get to fire the Railgun alone, the secondary system is a small cost to pay for moving so far!

And remember, it does have front AV of 13, so it's not as though it's fragile.
Combining that with Disruption pod (one of the best vehicle upgrades in the game), you're set for toughness.


Broadsides (the Hammerhead's competitor) are FAR more fragile by comparison, and significantly less adaptable.
They ONLY have solid shot, they cost not a lot less than a Railhead, and have to stay stationary to shoot unless you want to pay more.
Yes they've got a 2+ armour save, but anything S8+ instant-kills them, and AP2 makes their armour worth nothing.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Why's that, exactly? I see no fallacy when he says that what threatens his army and "scares" him as a player might be different from what does the same to you. Are you of the opinion that anyone who thinks differently than yourself is wrong, or am I missing something?


...

What you're missing is that HE made the claim that there were truly worthless units first.

I simply pointed out that the his _opinion_ is not to be confused with _fact_.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

you hate broadsides? ......dude....how?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

unxpekted22 said:


> you hate broadsides? ......dude....how?


When they come in full plastic I might like them a bit more. However, their current state of osteophorosis had the only 3 I was foolish enough to buy break at the ankles while carried in a normal GW case...

Plus, they're ugly and immobile.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> When they come in full plastic I might like them a bit more. However, their current state of osteophorosis had the only 3 I was foolish enough to buy break at the ankles while carried in a normal GW case...
> 
> Plus, they're ugly and immobile.


Pinning Exists for this reason. Pin the legs and they will never break and you get one of the best heavy support units in the game.:victory:


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Pinning Exists for this reason. Pin the legs and they will never break and you get one of the best heavy support units in the game.:victory:


Quoted for truth.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Pinning Exists for this reason. Pin the legs and they will never break and you get one of the best heavy support units in the game.:victory:


I know, BUT I refuse to use them because of sloppy design. You should not _expect_ people to have to pin their models. I certainly _can_ but that would mean I'm letting GW get away with it.

It's not like it says on the box; "Painting, assembly and pinning required".


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Pinning Exists for this reason. Pin the legs and they will never break and you get one of the best heavy support units in the game.:victory:


Quite true, I'm just uneasy with pinning.
...
Probably because I've never tried it.

I'd get the FW ones though, they look heaps better, with their arm-mounted raep-cannon.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> I'd get the FW ones though, they look heaps better, with their arm-mounted raep-cannon.


Bah, I hate hearing that line, I must be the only person who disagrees fuly with that. I think FW's Broadsides are the fugliest Tau thing I've seen maybe except the Orca and Tetra. And that commander they make with the spinemounted stuff.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Cole Deschain said:


> Quoted for truth.


Why thank you, QUICK READ MY FW THREAD NOW I NEED ADVICE WOOOT!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I know, BUT I refuse to use them because of sloppy design. You should not _expect_ people to have to pin their models. I certainly _can_ but that would mean I'm letting GW get away with it.
> 
> It's not like it says on the box; "Painting, assembly and pinning required".


It's not sloppy design, it's what's possible. Making deep prefab holes in models and pins that fit into them neatly and deep enough for a model to be stable is pretty much impossible, unless the costs skyrocket.
Making the model a single piece of metal is similarly impossible, because then you can't pose it etc.

I don't mind pinning, I do it with nearly everything I convert, or if it's more than 1 piece and a backpack. It makes the connections between various parts nice and solid, so they won't break if someone drops the model or something like that ( which WILL happen eventually ).

Any large metal model will require pinning, it's a physical requirement for a stable assembly. Deal with it.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Bah, I hate hearing that line, I must be the only person who disagrees fuly with that. I think FW's Broadsides are the fugliest Tau thing I've seen maybe except the Orca and Tetra. And that commander they make with the spinemounted stuff.


What's ugly about them?
I mean, yeah, the Torso is a little eh.
But the rest of it is fine.

And what's wrong with the Orca?
I don't really like the Tetra, but don't hate it.
The different commanders are ok looking, but not too flash.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> It's not sloppy design, it's what's possible. Making deep prefab holes in models and pins that fit into them neatly and deep enough for a model to be stable is pretty much impossible, unless the costs skyrocket.
> Making the model a single piece of metal is similarly impossible, because then you can't pose it etc.
> 
> I don't mind pinning, I do it with nearly everything I convert, or if it's more than 1 piece and a backpack. It makes the connections between various parts nice and solid, so they won't break if someone drops the model or something like that ( which WILL happen eventually ).
> ...



Yup all tau suits should be pinned when built to avoid "Snap, Crackle, Oh Crap"

I shall now be known as...

The Witch King of Angmar
Forum Smart Ass


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Gah, what's this? Logic? This. Is. Warhammer!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Making deep prefab holes in models and pins that fit into them neatly and deep enough for a model to be stable is pretty much impossible, unless the costs skyrocket.
> Making the model a single piece of metal is similarly impossible, because then you can't pose it etc.


See, that's not what I meant.

They _could_ make a new mold for the legs, that are not 1 atom thin... For Crisis suits, that's not a problem, but a Broadside has 2 metal railguns, the stabilizer parts on the 'jetpack' and in addition they expect you to affix it all to the feet (in tin) with _super glue_.

It's *sloppy*, at best lazy and cheap.



Winterous said:


> What's ugly about them?
> I mean, yeah, the Torso is a little eh.
> But the rest of it is fine.
> 
> ...


Well, the FW's Broads go one step too many towards the stupid jap manga style I dislike.

The Orca is too boxy, and the internal layout doesn't make sense (looks like it has a cockpit on the outside, but has a bridge with a 3 man crew on the inside.) Besides, the only reason the rc looks like that is because of the PC game 'Fire Warrior', where they concocted that thing. And making an Orca model was basically the same as accepting 'Fire Warrior' as canon, when it truth it was a stinking pile of crap.

And the Tetra... Oh gods. It's got a Pulse Rifle and a markerlight on it. And it's crew are Pathfinders.



Witch King of Angmar said:


> Yup all tau suits should be pinned when built to avoid "Snap, Crackle, Oh Crap"


I use mostly flying bases with my Crisis suits, and the ones I have glued to bases I never had a problem with. Because they are 100% plastic, I guess


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Well, the FW's Broads go one step too many towards the stupid jap manga style I dislike.
> 
> The Orca is too boxy, and the internal layout doesn't make sense (looks like it has a cockpit on the outside, but has a bridge with a 3 man crew on the inside.) Besides, the only reason the rc looks like that is because of the PC game 'Fire Warrior', where they concocted that thing. And making an Orca model was basically the same as accepting 'Fire Warrior' as canon, when it truth it was a stinking pile of crap.
> 
> And the Tetra... Oh gods. It's got a Pulse Rifle and a markerlight on it. And it's crew are Pathfinders.


Ok, I don't really see how the FW Broadsides are MORE anime than the regular Battlesuits.
If anything they're significantly LESS so.
They're sleek and smooth, instead of hard-edged and stylised.

I will agree though, that the Broadside model is retarded.
The REGULAR Battlesuits can get away with having crappy ankles, they FLY AROUND.
But the Broadsides actually have to walk, so you think they'd need beefy ankles.

The reason I prefer the FW models is because I hate the shoulder-mounted Railguns, they look retarded, and don't function well at all.
The arm-mounted Railguns are the main reason I like the models, because it's a functional design that looks sweet; I will admit that the Torso looks stupid though.


I actually believe that the FW design for the Orca was, in fact, an original Forge World design, which may or may not have been commissioned for use in the Fire Warrior game.
I don't think GW would entrust the design of a new craft in a game designer, it was probably either a FW or GW designer who actually created the thing.

That said, I think it looks like a wicked craft.
It's boxy, but it's also the only Tau aircraft designed SOLELY to transport infantry; it needs an efficient design for what it does.
Take a look at the Devilfish, it's a troop transport, and looks quite boxy; the only difference is that it's sloped at the front, due to the smaller frame from it not being a space craft.

The cockpit thing is a bit odd though.
What I imagine it is though, is that the 'cockpit' is either where the actual _pilot_ is seated, or is just a large sensor array.
The 3 (2) crew (the Ethereal isn't really crew, just there for in-flight entertainment) are probably just there for navigation, communication, and coordination; and keeping an eye on the ship's systems, making sure nothing goes wrong.

Yes, the game was awful though.
It was a cool idea, but then again, so was this.






Yeah, the Tetra is a piece of crap.
The Markerlight is the only thing it has going for it, and Pathfinders do it heaps better.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

this topic has gone from the rules/points of a hammerhead, to the design of the broadside/tetra/orca.

I think its obvious to all that the Tau line is out of date...but then again, so are a handful of races. Have been for years.

And i think if we, the buyers of GW products, can see any change happening at all, only Imperial guard, SPACE MARINES (surprise fucking surprise), Chaos and orks will get any.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Orochi said:


> this topic has gone from the rules/points of a hammerhead, to the design of the broadside/tetra/orca.
> 
> I think its obvious to all that the Tau line is out of date...but then again, so are a handful of races. Have been for years.
> 
> And i think if we, the buyers of GW products, can see any change happening at all, only Imperial guard, SPACE MARINES (surprise fucking surprise), Chaos and orks will get any.


Tau aren't out of date. They should keep the current look of most of their models, if that's what you mean.

Besides, Tau is now selling more models than Orks. If GW's head is where it's money is, Tau will be a priority too.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Tau aren't out of date. They should keep the current look of most of their models, if that's what you mean.
> 
> Besides, Tau is now selling more models than Orks. If GW's head is where it's money is, Tau will be a priority too.


Wait- WHAT?
Tau, the army that uses a small number of elite models, is selling MORE models than Orks, the army that has a million and a quarter models in your standard army?!?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Wait- WHAT?
> Tau, the army that uses a small number of elite models, is selling MORE models than Orks, the army that has a million and a quarter models in your standard army?!?


Im not sure where he is getting this info on.
Not convinced he knows what he's going on about either.

@MHC
The Tau ARE out of date. Check the date in your codex...Does it say written in 2008/9?
Mine doesn't.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I take it back. This thread WAS funny.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Or model them sitting down on a convenient rock to support their little tiny ankles.


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

Back to the hammerhead...

I agree, I really don't see a problem with the hammerhead as it currently is. 

You want an overpriced tank? Look at the Leman Russ Punisher. 180 points before any upgrades, and although it's decent against hordes and such, the standard leman russ is far better for 30 points less, no upgrades required.

Seriously, the HH is one of the best tanks in the game. It can easily punch through AV14 and get a destroyed result on the first turn, take on hordes with submunitions, and for a few extra points you can get those disruption pods so it has a 4+ save. What's that, about 170 points? Seems like a good deal to me.

Why is moving 12" and firing everything so vital anyway?

Just figured I'd through my 2 cents in.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Lord_Murdock said:


> Back to the hammerhead...
> 
> I agree, I really don't see a problem with the hammerhead as it currently is.
> 
> ...


My army has always relied on mobility. I don't think I can remember a game where 1 of my HH's stood still or moved less than 6" for a single turn. I'm constantly thinking ahead to take out 1 target while positioning myself so that the Burst Cannons has something to shoot at while being in a good position to get to a good target the turn after.

Hammerheads are supposed to _move_, that's why they are skimmers in the first place. And I know the HH will be able to fire all weapons and move 12" when the codex comes out, but it remains to be seen if the points cost goes down, like all other tanks affected by the new movement rule so far in new codexes. The exception is the SM Land Raider, which isn't affected. (Machine Spirit)



Orochi said:


> Im not sure where he is getting this info on.
> Not convinced he knows what he's going on about either.
> 
> @MHC
> ...


The figures are from popularity in GT's and tournaments since 2003, since there is no real way to get the actual sales figures. One can only guess, which I'm pretty good at having been through business school.

Space Marines - (28.76%) 

Chaos Space Marines - (21.12%) 

Eldar - (13.03%) 

Tau - (8.69%) 

Imperial Guard - (6.40%) 

Necrons - (6.04%) 

Tyranids - (5.03%) 

Orks - (4.53%) 

Dark Eldar - (2.70%) 

Witchhunters - (2.01%) 

Daemonhunters - (1.69%)


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

how do you pin stuff? maybe my metal assault marines on plastic bases balancing on their toes would stand up better?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I seriously doubt that the HH will have a move 12" and fire everything. Likely just make it fast and be done with it.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

unxpekted22 said:


> how do you pin stuff? maybe my metal assault marines on plastic bases balancing on their toes would stand up better?


Gluing metal under the base usually helps too.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Pinning: Pin Vise, brass rod, or dreml tool, brass rod.

Drill a thin hole up through the weak point or joint, insert rod, glue.


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