# Dark Angel's secret



## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

I recently read a nice fluff rumour, that Lion El Jonson knew about Horus and his turning to the Chaos gods, but did nothing, waiting to see who will win eventually, the Emperor or Horus! the Fallen Angels are those who didn't want to just wait and see and left the chapter. After the defeat of Horus the Angels that left the chapter where a problem, if anyone found out the truth, the Dark Angels would be excommunicated, and the Inquisition would destroy them. So that's why the Dark Angels hunt down the Fallen Angels. 
I think it's a better story from the lame excuse : " we hunt the fallen because the turned to Chaos" Big deal!! half of the legion Astartes turned to chaos and you talk about half of your chapter!!! who gives a sh...t? we have Abbadon to deal and his damn black crusades and those damn tyrannids!
So anyone knows more about this fluff rumour? any conspiracy theories?
( but i'm big fun of the Dark Angels, nice models and interesting story)


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

i think that the first part is true - iv heard it somewhere before definately. dunno about the second bit though, but then atm i cant even remember the reason why the hunt them down in the first place...my DA-fu is not that good.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i have definately heard this many more times than the other excuse which is that the fallen had turned to chaos. if you have read descent of angels the ending leaves you thinking that it ws possible for luther to definately turn but its a load of shit. he was to noble and loved the lion to much. i agree with this reason for hunting the fallen. the dark angels were on the fence when the shit hit the fan and would side with whoever won. but the angels on caliban were still true to the emperor and fired on their fleet thinking they had turned to chaos. thus did the lion and luther battle and that leads us to today. as for why the fallen are able to move arund and use the warp and shit i think it is the emperor looking out for the fallen, especially cypher. ever noticed that even though they are supposedly so dedicated to chaos none are mutated? not even a small thing. i think the dark angels are covering up their own damn mistake. as for luther living a long time, he was blessed by the emperor cuz the emp knew about the lion and the only reason he was "sorry" was cuz he thought the dark angels had turned but they had sided with the winner who was the emperor so they wee still "loyal". idk those are my thoughts but all i gots to say is i hope cypher completes his mission to prove how sneaky and twofaced the dark angels are.....ive always been a space wolf player hehehehe


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

yeah it's rather funny that none of the fallen hasn't mutated! it will be a thrilling story if Cypher gets to terra and tell the truth about the DA.Imagine the scenario: apocalypse game, DA vs other Sm or IG , mission : capture the Rock.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

oooh i gaurantee the sons of russ would be spear heading that one!! breaking luther free is one of the objectives while finding the lion and bringing him to be interrogated is another! oh god that would be soooo cool! imagine what the luther model would look like?!


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

My second choise are the Space wolfs, but in that case i would go with the DA. see you at the Rock! i've just finished my first 40k book: the sons of Fenris, great book.(about the DA) . It had a fallen Angel that said the same thing, Lion was a traitor


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i would believe it if i were you. i would suggest reading The Descent of Angels. it gives a really good insight to how much of liar the Lion is and how two-faced he is. i would be one of the chaos lords taking advantage of the situation. i love the wolves but i love my Iron Warriors more


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

of all the rumors about the rift between the lion and luther, i have to say this is the one that makes the most sense. although i dont like thinking my primarch would do something like this, its definitely better than other rumors. as far as fluff goes, however, the ending paragraphs of Descent would definitely support this. perhaps a continuation is in store?


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

i agree, it is the best explanation on the secresy of the chapter. i will definetelly read the book, i want to know more about the Dark Angels saga. maybe the primarch did make a mistake but the chapter can stil redeemed it's self. we will wait and see, what the chaps of GW will think of.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i really hope that GW does continue this because quite truthfully i fully believe that Luther was a better person than the Lion. no offense to DA players but from what ive read he sounds like a stand up guy with good morals and stuff like that. i mean he had the chance to kill the lion twice, once in the forests of Caliban but he took him in and taught him everything he knew, and in Descent of Angels when that alien race they have negotiations with has a huge bomb strapped to their shuttle. he noticed the bomb right away and could have let it go but he came back to stop it. that to me sounds like the kind of comrade you want by your side but the Lion never gave him any props.


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

Even though sitting on the fence is a horrible thing, I always thought that the Lion and the Chapter realized the mistake, thus trying to erase it to hide their shame. Therefore I don't see them as traitors really. It's mentioned somewhere that the current head of the Space Wolves knows the Inner Circle's secrets.

There was a book that was published in limited quantities and is hard to find now-a-days but it has an interesting twist. Well, half the DA were from Terra and the other half from Caliban right? Well in this book the Lion doesn't trust the Terrans, and always has a Caliban Company shadowing it. So when word of the Heresy got out, the Terran marines (hehe) were getting ready to sally to the defense of their home. But the Lion was way off, stuck in the warp or what-not. And since the paranoid Primarch kept tight reigns on his legion, the Caliban Marines wouldn't let them leave as they distrusted them and didn't want to go to war without the Lion.

Neither side liked the others actions very much, and they blew each other to hell, each believing it was right (how were the Caliban Marines to trust the Terrans? they thought they could be with Horus etc.). Then the Lion arrived at Caliban, and hears the reports of what happened. Knowing he couldn't trust the victor he blew the planet up.

So this would mean that Luther wanting Lion's forgiveness would be him being sorry for not stopping the slaughter of Dark Angel on Dark Angels. This story is interesting as its not canon. The whole story is told by a Fallen Angel as he's being interrogated. So it's interesting to see how they see themselves.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

I have stated this in the Luther post. 
Luther was truly for the emperor and the Lion was indeed tainted by chaos. Why else would an extremely brilliant and agile commander who had jumped from the Galactic north of the Maelstrom to the ends of the Eastern Fringes to suppress and Ork uprising alongside the Ultramarines in a surprising 2 weeks amidst Warp storms take so much time to get to the Emperor's palace when he was only a few days away from the jump point to Terra near Caliban? 

He was truly tainted and only came to 'accept' it after he heard about the rebellion. There was a guy called the 'Whisperer' an agent of Tzeentch, he convinced the Lion that Luther was indeed the corrupted one and he also whispered to Luther about the Lion's betrayal, in desperation he sought to stop it and turned to the Gods of Chaos and he was granted powers unbeknownest to the cost of it all. When the Lion returned to Caliban the known events of its shattering happened, but alas the truth of the Lion's taint was revealed and the upper command decided to suppress the information from all the non-legion while defaulting their allegiance back to the Emeperor and they suceeded, subsequently killing any survivors of the fall of Caliban.

The one other faction who knew of this was Luther's followers, the Fallen, they seek to redeem themselves from the mark that has been put upon their legion by the taint of the Lion. Why are the called Fallen...Fallen from the grace of the Emeperor as they had let the Lion be corrupted and that Luther had accepted the Powers of Chaos when he was desperate. Dark Angels are just paranoid that they will go around telling everyone of what had happened. What happens then?...Inquisitorial Exterminatus and Excommunicatus Traitorous of the Dark Angels of course.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

So you're saying what's in the codex is wrong? Wow, GW can get really confusing sometimes...

But if the DA are tainted, why are they not mutated. I hardly beleive that the FIRST founded legion are traitorus. I can understand a miss-communication between the caliban forces and those travelling with the Lion, ending in the utter devastation of Caliban. But why then, do the DA hold Fallen until they 'confess' rather than just kill them outright if they were holding such a secret?

Also, why then do the DA fight the forces of chaos in the battle of Kurin's Acropolis in 551.M37 where master Baradiel slays the Sorcerer Potchek.

Also in 229.M38, the DA fight in the Emperors name upon Altid 156, ridding the planet of the colonists who had declared independance in which the Ravenwing guided down the Deathwing in a devastating assault on the planet.

It states the reason Lion took so long to reach Terra is because during travel his ships were assaulted by Daemons of the Warp

Question, what exactly are the "Watchers in the Dark"?


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> But if the DA are tainted, why are they not mutated.


to answer that question, the codex states that the Dark Angels are the first legion, and their geneseed is the _purest_ of all. im paraphrasing, of course, but thankfully it says in the codex that the Dark Angels have the purest geneseed of all the SM chapters!!
im not attacking anyone, im just happy that GW writes it in stone that the Dark Angels are the purest chapter! this thread is starting to scare me;
supposedly my primarch is a chaos-tainted traitor...
the man who supposedly betrayed the legion to chaos is actually the hero...
the fallen are actually the good guys?
still, its better than some other "fan" fluff.


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> the Dark Angels are the first legion, and their geneseed is the _purest_.



Sorry if I'm wrong but don't the Ultramarines have the purest >.>?


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Ultramarines have the most complete geneseed. Dark Angels are the purest.

-Dirge


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## Luciferi (Mar 2, 2008)

Dirge Eterna said:


> Ultramarines have the most complete geneseed. Dark Angels are the purest.
> 
> -Dirge


Excuse my ignorance but could you possibly explain the different ^^?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I think one of the places you may have gotten the gist of it is here. It was posted as a bit of homebrew fluff on Heresy about 4 months ago. No-one at the time had heard anything like it.

There is another Heresy thread here that discusses similar things.

So... I suspect (this includes you cccp, you're in there!) that you've read it on Heresy, then forgotten where it's from, and 'written it back in', so the next time you read it on Heresy you think the Heresy thread is confirming what you heard before...

:checking the sources cyclops:


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

On page 18 of the Dark Angels Codex it states;

"The Dark Angels are distinct in that their gene-seed is one of the purest and least degraded. There are no known aberrations in the Dark Angels' genetic stock..."

:booyah cyclops:


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Captain Galus said:


> ...
> 
> :booyah cyclops:


To me?

Missed.

I was talking about the idea that it was Lionel who betrayed the Emperor, while Luthor remained loyal. I care little for arguments about 'purity' as opposed to 'completeness' of geneseed. Sorry for not being clear on that.

:smug cyclops:


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Truth of the matter is i dont know why the Lion took so long to reach Terra, but him fending off chaos daemons sounds better than him sitting on the fence. Maybe he was planning where to hit the chaos legions where it would hurt them the most, maybe catching them in some cross fire? I know that luther was jealous and bitter which sows the seed for heresy, these feelings would leave him susceptable to the whispers of chaos and turn him, and given time he turned the other marines, or at least tricked the ones that would remain loyal by telling them that the Lion had fallen. So they attack the Lion who responds in kind and fights Luther...this is where you can tell Luther is corrupt...because he fights the Lion on almost an equal match. No space marine ever could fight toe to toe with a primarch for more than a second before being slapped into oblivion, but Luther did, why? Because he was possessed by chaos and when he was defeated they got pissed (as they always do...babies) and caused the warpstorm to scatter the fallen. And they left Luthers body, much like they did with Horus just before his soul was turned to nothingness. Now im convinced that some of the fallen were not tainted but where in fact tricked, Cypher springs to mind, his actions seem to aid the imperium, drawing the DA into conflicts where they are desperatly needed. Which could be why they dont mutate, because they dont follow chaos, but realise that their former comrades would capture, torture and kill them keeps them from returning to the fold. If the DA wern't so zealous in capturing the fallen in such a brutal way, maybe it would open the door for some of them to return. I also read somewhere that many fallen work as mercs and pirates and that kind of thing. Which assures me that they arn't chaos tainted. But for half of the legion to have turned to chaos or at least to have seemed to turn to chaos would, in the eyes of the inquisition, be cause for Inquisitorial Exterminatus and Excommunicatus Traitorous which is why they keep it a secret and hunt them on the hush hush. The DA are and always have been loyal to the emperor and his cause. They fight against chaos and all xeno threats. Hooray for the Dark Angels. Oh and as for the bloody space wolves, they've caused enough trouble, what with turning on Magnus and the thousand sons and turning them to chaos, silly Leman Russ, silly, niave space wolves. They need to keep their noses clean and out of other peoples affairs!!! As for the watchers in the dark, while reading about them my first thought was Eldar. The way they were described...just screams Eldar. But there is no proof.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> To me?


naw fool! i was jk


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

rgw said:


> There was a book that was published in limited quantities and is hard to find now-a-days but it has an interesting twist. Well, half the DA were from Terra and the other half from Caliban right? Well in this book the Lion doesn't trust the Terrans, and always has a Caliban Company shadowing it. So when word of the Heresy got out, the Terran marines (hehe) were getting ready to sally to the defense of their home. But the Lion was way off, stuck in the warp or what-not. And since the paranoid Primarch kept tight reigns on his legion, the Caliban Marines wouldn't let them leave as they distrusted them and didn't want to go to war without the Lion.
> 
> Neither side liked the others actions very much, and they blew each other to hell, each believing it was right (how were the Caliban Marines to trust the Terrans? they thought they could be with Horus etc.). Then the Lion arrived at Caliban, and hears the reports of what happened. Knowing he couldn't trust the victor he blew the planet up.
> 
> So this would mean that Luther wanting Lion's forgiveness would be him being sorry for not stopping the slaughter of Dark Angel on Dark Angels. This story is interesting as its not canon. The whole story is told by a Fallen Angel as he's being interrogated. So it's interesting to see how they see themselves.


The book is 'Angels of Darkness' and is easy to pick up as GW did a second print a couple of months back- you're sort of correct with the first part but way off with the rest. Whilst it's true that the 'Terran' Chapters had 'Caliban' Chapters usually in close proximity without the Terran Chapters knowledge, the opinion that the Lion didn't trust them was given by one of the Fallen so it can't be considered the hard and fast truth. 

The reason certain Chapter's got sent back to Caliban (other than what is stated in Descent of Angels) is because Chapter Master Astelan refused a direct order from the Lion (an order that would have sacrificed 500,000 Imperial citizens in order to preserve 100 Space Marine lives) so the Terran Chapters (on the whole) were sent back.

In fact in the same book Astelan states that is was only because of his support that Luthor was able to 'corrupt' the Astartes stationed on Caliban, some reacted angrily to what Luthor and Astelan were espousing and so began a guerilla war between the 'Fallen' and the few remaining loyalists on Caliban that was almost over when the Lion returned to his homeworld.

It's Astelan's opinion again that states the Lion was waiting to see who won in the Heresy so I wouldn't necesarily believe it.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Astalan was a traitor, a fallen and by current fluff he is the bad guy so how can his words be trusted as truth?


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## RazikTheDevourer (Jul 28, 2008)

As a Chaos fan all i gotta say is thanks for the Fallen.
Its good to see the Fallen Angels have good taste in Allies.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

i didn't expect tha th thread will go so deep in to Dark Angel secrets, but thanks for giving info. I think that the DA are loyal to the emperor and to the imperium, but the made a mistake, a big one back then, and now the seek redemption. By capturing all the fallen the secret will be safe, unless Cypher makes it to Terra.I don't think that the DA are corrupted by chaos because the adeptus mechanicus would have found it by now ( every chapter gives apercentage of it's gene-seed to Mars) and the woul have been some visible mutations. Neither the fallen are tainted for the same reasons. It's kind of a civil war inside a chapter between two factions. Anyway this rumor is far better than the "official", and we have to wait and see what GW will decide to do with story. I hope it will turn out to be true, the DA proclaimed excommunicated, being chased all over the galaxy by the inquisition, then vanishing without trace only to arrive in the darkest hours of the imperium to fight along their fellow marines to redeeme themselves!


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

No no no, the Dark Angels are loyal, will always be loyal. If the inquisition turned on a loyalist chapter with anything less than concrete evidence sealed in steel surrounded by a casing of adamantium and ceramite then i'm sure the other loyalist legions would turn on the inquisition, i'm pretty sure the loyalist legions are easily pissed off by the inquisition as they're always sticking theor noses in other peoples business and have a ton of power and you know what they say...power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I'm not saying they're chaos tainted just self-righteous and stuck up. 

No matter what is said about the Dark Angels they are loyal, always have been, always will be. They are the first legion and were bodyguards of the emperor back in the day. Go Angels, yeah baby yeah!


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

i know the DA are loyal but try to explain that to the inquisition 
"innocense proves nothing"


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Let an Inquisitor explain to an angry chapter master of the marines with the purest gene seed that they are 'innocent' traitorous fools. I can see it now... Inquisitor tries to arrest entire loyal chapter because he is some little glory hound trying to prove himself... Chapter Master mounts Inquisitors bloody mutilated carcass on a banner pole after 'teaching' him respect for his superiors... Inquisition gets angry and threatens Dark Angels... Other loyalist chapters crack their fists and bitchslap the inquisition in its place just by towering over them and looking pissed off... Hotheaded Space Wolf Chapter Master and select elite bodyguard sneaks into Dark Angels fortress to try to find out their secret... Find Lion's tomb, accidentally wake him up... Lion decides to knock out wolfy chapter master like he owned Leman Russ, with his fist... accidentally crushes chapter masters skull... Chapter Masters bodyguard sh*ts puppies and runs... right into angry Dark Angels chapter... *Hissing and popping of plasma incinerating flesh*


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## vorbis (Nov 20, 2007)

i remember reading that book, u sure it not canon?


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Look, DA aren't all inherently bad and they still fight for the Imperium, they have just realised their mistake and are tryin ta solve the mishmash by killing all old Fallen so that their style wont be cramped by the nogood inquisitors.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

and what mistake was that exactly?


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## Grand Master Belial (Jun 4, 2008)

Sweet Emperor! The Legions of Chaos are really trying to call the Dark Angels one of their own! Time to be reinforcement for the Lion.

Older Canon has the Dark Angels and Space Wolves teamed up and pushing the outer edges of the Imperium during the Great Crusade. During this time the Rivalry was started and the Lion ranked up his impressive streak (2nd only to Horus). 

When they get word of the Isstavan IV massacare, they drop what they are doing and head for Terra. There is a gray area that they stopped along the way, but that wasn't referenced so I don't know where that came from. I do know that the Chaos Gods control the Warp and can easily delay ships far from Terra from getting there in a timely manner.

Now we can add Angels of Darkness where Astellan was a Fallen Dark Angel. Having been turned by the oratory skills of Luther or by misinformation, he was under the impression that the Lion betrayed the Emperor and that justified his reasoning to do what he did. Whereas the viel of deception was lifted from Luther at the fall of Caliban, the same can not be said of Astellan and the other Fallen who would still be under the sway of deception left by Luther or whatever misinformation was fed to them. 

Now go back to the DA Codex, it says that the depths the Fallen fell went across the spectrum. From shamed marines in hiding to full Chaos Marines. This opens the door that the Fallen have wildly varying points of view as to what happened back then and why. 

What we are missing is the Lion's point of view during the time of the Heresy. There is a second DA book coming out in the HH series (currently being written I think) that should shed a little more light on to what was happening around the Lion.

Is there room for speculation? Sure. The Dark Angels have a background where there are plenty of dark voids that makes one wonder what is there. What happened during the Lion's time before his discovery? What else did he do during the Heresy? What is up with Cypher? It is what was facinating about them and is a major draw to gamers like me who like that kind of background.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

in reference to the reason the dark angels stopped half way to terra my theory is that they stopped to help out the space wolves. yeah russ and the lion had a rivalry but when they had their fight russ got knocked out but i think the lion would have had a respect for him and he wanted to help out a warrior who could match his prowess. 
yeah there is a lot of sinister stuff going on with the dark angels but during the great crusade and heresy the imperium was a total different place and things have been distorted over 10k years so maybe there is a good reason for their delay.


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

Man I've done this dance before on another thread in Hersey.

This is of course until GW decides to change the fluff with the follow up to Descent of the Angels.

LUTHER WAS A BAD GUY. period in the Codex Angels of Death from 1996 it states "Even though the Primarch possessed superhuman powers, the two oppenents were equally matched, for Luther's own, already considerable abilities, had been enhanced by the dark gods of Chaos." page 12 2nd column 2nd paragraph from the bottom.

He was possessed by the Chaos gods. 

It also states earlier on the same page that "Luther had used his skills at oratory to lead the Dark Angels under his command to the path of Chaos, instilling his own feelings of jealousy and rage in the Dark Angels who had been left behind on Caliban during the Great Crusade."

He polluted half the Legion. 

That's is it! That is until the fine folks at GW decide to flesh it out even more. I hope the next book in HH series about the DA is better than the first and explains a little more.

And finally the Dark Angels were not waiting to see the outcome of the Heresy. They were fighting with the Space Wolves and when news of Hersey broke out the came back to Terra but were to late to help.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

nice one, glad someone else agrees with me that dark angels were helping the space wolves out. the whole help from a unexpected quarter wasnt likely going to be eldar or orks was it, it was help from a brother legion that had been at each others throats for a while which makes it all the more noble for the lions angels and not making them some traitorous scum. they actually knew that if they left the wolves they would be exterminated and they took time to help them out instead of heading straight to earth and helping the emperor out.......... can anyone see a conspiracy opening up here


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## Asimondai (Jul 15, 2008)

quite possibly they where helping out the space wolves but in the collective vissions book it says Hourus sent the Night Lords (pretty sure it was NL, but may have been Alpha Legion) after the DA, but i'm not sure how Canonical this is.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think it was alpha legion that was attacking spacewolves but if it was maybe the unexpected quarter could have been alpharius or omegon and the dark suited warrior that was seen helping corrax and vulkan off isstvaan could have came to rescue yet another primarch for the cause.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> i really hope that GW does continue this because quite truthfully i fully believe that Luther was a better person than the Lion. no offense to DA players but from what ive read he sounds like a stand up guy with good morals and stuff like that. i mean he had the chance to kill the lion twice, once in the forests of Caliban but he took him in and taught him everything he knew, and in Descent of Angels when that alien race they have negotiations with has a huge bomb strapped to their shuttle. he noticed the bomb right away and could have let it go but he came back to stop it. that to me sounds like the kind of comrade you want by your side but the Lion never gave him any props.


Ok I agree with not killing him in the forests of Caliban, but the bomb malarky, nah his arse just fell out he couldnt see it through, he knew the consequences of what would happen, the boy lacked the courage of his convictions.
If Luther didnt turn to Chaos how would he have been able to stand up and go toe to toe with the Lion? If I remember rightly he actually wounded the Lion really badly before he realised what he'd done, same as above really his arse fell out, all in all he comes across as a wimp who couldnt do what needed to be done.

(can you tell Im a DA fan  lol)


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

it was written in Descent of Angels that Luther wasn't even a full space marine...he was too old. so the fact that he was able to not only stand up to the Lion, but _wound_ him is, I believe, concrete proof that he was aided by Chaos directly.


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## wd6669 (Feb 27, 2008)

Seeing how the dark angels love there secrets and seeing how lurther acts in decent of angels has anyone thought that the whole lurther turning to chaos could actually be a giant cover up for the lion turning to chaos? BY LURTHER cause if word got out the lion was chaos the DAs would be destroyed and we all know how lurther puts the lion first so maybe he had to somehow(probably with help) kill the lion and take the blame on himself so the lion would be remembered a hero and not a traitor? i have nothing to back this up btw just a theory


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## Asimondai (Jul 15, 2008)

Well, it may have already come up, but doesn't Luther just repeat over and over that the Lion will come and forgive him, also i read somewhere that DA use him to find the Fallen (may be false).

Also i see Luther as a very unluckt/tradgic character, he was almost the greatest warrior on calbian the he finds The Lion and he's made into second fiddle, then everyone becomes Space Marines, and he gets left behind, imagine how bitter he felt, "Yeh ofcourse ure second in comannad, but stay here while I go and win glory and your unkown to non-DA"


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

In the scale of something as large as the great crusade, there is no such thing as an unimportant position. Every tool is used. For Luther to resent being sent to Caliban to train recruits is pretty sad. That's an important job. You would be the face of the DA on Caliban. The recruits would revere you like they would the Lion. Luther was petty and jealous but that is a human weakness and can affect even the strongest of us (even the primarchs felt it) But since the Lion is sleeping under the watchful eyes of the erm watchers, then he may very well return and forgive Luther, maybe all the fallen, but i don't think he would. After all Luther's pettiness turned or tricked half of his legion to chaos or away from the good fight at least. The Lion was forced to kill many of his own legion. And then Caliban was destroyed!!! Luther has a lot to answer for....


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

It was also written in the Descent that Luther matched the Lion in all aspects even though he was a mere Human......What do they mean by this is it his exploits or his actual power? I was a bit torn over that statement.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

I think in terms of his achievments (at least up to the great crusade), popularity and charisma. Maybe even strategy and planning, but this is a little pushing it.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Iaint claiming it just asking, I was a bit confused by the statement. Maybe he was as good as him?:grin:


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Luther was the best caliban had to offer until the Lion grew up. Before the Lion he was a great leader, strong, popular...he had the best of eveything. He was top dog. He then found and raised the Lion and taught him all he knew until eventually the Lion surpassed him. But there was a point when Luther was better than the Lion (when the Lion was first found). There was a point when they were the roughly the same (when Lion was young) and then a time when the Lion surpassed everyone (When he was a little older like teenage years).


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

What I don't get is that if Luther wasn't turned into a space marine how has he survived 10000 years?


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Maybe the taint of chaos is still within him expanding his life or maybe his body fluctuates between the warp and realtime, or more likely the DA are keeping him alive...his own golden throne lol.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

He still had some operations didnt he? The only thing he didnt get if I remember rightly was the geneseed, is that what gives them long life?


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## Grand Master Belial (Jun 4, 2008)

angels of fire said:


> What I don't get is that if Luther wasn't turned into a space marine how has he survived 10000 years?


The 2nd Ed. Codex has Luther in stasis and each new Chapter Master takes him for a personal one-on-one chat. When they fail they stuff him back in stasis until the next Chapter Master shows up. The Sword of Secrets is the key that unlocks Luther's cell.


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## wd6669 (Feb 27, 2008)

i was reading the chaos book and it says something about a legion that turned chaos but once the emperor won they changed back and tried to cover it up


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## Camaris (Aug 4, 2008)

> I think it's a better story from the lame excuse : " we hunt the fallen because the turned to Chaos" Big deal!! half of the legion Astartes turned to chaos and you talk about half of your chapter!!!


Ah yes, but you have to think: "Would the Inquisition be understanding enough to not wipe us out even though clearly our chapter has a (proven) weakness when it comes to (not) resisting chaos?"
And of course it's a gigantic stain on the honor of the chapter.

They hunt the fallen because they were their brothers that betrayed them. Their own flesh and blood (literally when you think about the geneseed). Such a betrayal would be much more bitter then that of another chapter/legion.
That they're chaos is only salt on the wound...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

So, Luther is imprisoned in the Rock, with only the Capter Master knowing about it, and Jonson is hidden in the Rock by the Watchers in the Dark... That could lead to some explosive story lines if and when Jonson wakes. 

Does anyone have any more fluff on the Watchers? Even in Descent of Angels it's pretty vague. And what's their motivation for hiding Jonson? Is it to eventually wake him to help the Imperium in it's darkest hour, which it now seems to be entering, or is it for something more sinister?


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Im thinking the watchers are eldar, and if you've read the HH books, the eldar are always sticking their noses in; They tried to sway fulgrim until they fought and the SM won. An eldar tried to sway Alpharius (he may or may not have succeded), so its not a hard push to believe that they stuck their noses (do eldar even have noses?) into the DA chapter and whisked the Lion away. As for their purpose...i dunno. Maybe they got a master plan for chaos or the necrons...i think only they (and the brains of GW) know...!


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

I remember reading somewhere that the DA primarch was with the Emperor during the heresy and they fought without thinking about switching sides. When they returned home to Caliban, the second in command had become bitter at not being allowed to join them in battle, and had turned half of the legion to Chaos. The reason that the DA are so fervent in hunting the fallen angels is that if they were discovered, not only would they be under heavy inquisitorial investigation, their homeworld would likely be destroyed to remove any possibility of taint.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Their homeworld was destroyed....its a flying rock now yay! They hunt the fallen to hide the shame they brought by turning to chaos...they took the easy way in life and the DA will show them the light!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

NO angel you are wrong. Denounce your beleifs or else..... I will have to ask you again.


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

What about Cypher the Fallen Angel? He was a special character that could be used for either Chaos or IG, and nobody quite understands his motives. All that is known is that the DA will do whatever it takes to kill him.

Frankly, I'm going to cheer for joy if the DA spilt again. More Fallen Angels!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

im just wondering how long the order to get cypher has been in place. has it been around since the heresy or has it been along time after that. im just curious why they would want him that bad when there is a chance he could be aiming at doing something good.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> im just curious why they would want him that bad when there is a chance he could be aiming at doing something good.



Remember, even the DA themselves don't know the full story behind the chism in the Legion. As far as they're concerned he is a traitor to the Dark Angels, Jonsen, and the Emperor. They don't know he _may_ be working for the good guys, and wouldn't necessarily care if they did. He is a stain on their honour that must be cleansed.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

good point and i was thinking the guy is quite open in that he fights along side chaos and if he is wearing dark angel armour then it is very dangerous for them to have him waltzing around willy nilly and doing as he pleases.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

It is also said that Cypher is heading for holy Terra to slay the emperor....can't let that happen now can we!!!! Plus i think all the fallen are wearing the DA armour, the original pre-heresy armour i would think, unless they scrounged some new gear...

Also Cypher held an important role within the ancient order and presumably within the DA legion. He would've been a very high ranking and respected member, so his stain is greater than a regular fallen, but probably less than Luther who was second. I personally don't think Cypher fell to chaos but was rather tricked by Luther or at least left with no option but to run...i think he's a good guy; he seems to draw Dark Angels into conflicts where they are needed in the nick of time....that doesn't sound like the workings of chaos to me. Either way the DA are around for the end game and will probably succeed in 'forgiving' the fallen!


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

Or the DA have another split, and the second great heresy occurs


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

or the lion turns out to be the traitor and cypher slays him for the emperor and takes over the dark angels seeing as he has some respect from the emperor as seen in descent of angels.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

He couldn't slay a primarch (even if he found him) and the Lion was not a bloody traitor and there will be no more splitting. Surely its someone elses turn...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

We'll just have to wait for Jonsen to wake up and pick a side, then, won't we... Then again, maybe it's Cypher who holds the key to waking him. 

IIRC the sword of secrets is also the key to Luther's cell, well maybe the sword that Cypher carries but never uses is the key to Jonsen.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

He picked a side....remember he fought Luther; he possessed by chaos, traitor and heretic! Lion is for the emperor, why can no-one see that?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

One becuase i am a Black Apostle that has been around since before the Heresy and have met the Lion and Luther personally, both were arrogant beyond belief and both lied through their teeht just like Alpharius and his ilk. He fought Luther because Luther made the choice for him end of story. The Lion has the taint, I could smell it on him the last time we met before the Dropsite Massacre, my congregation and I were "aiding" him and his angels in a campaign. He may not have known it but his time spent in the twisted woods of Caliban left a stain upon his soul and it was that very taint that put him on the fence, even if for a little while, and it was that same taint that saw him disgrace the fool Luther. He got what he deserved loyal or not, he sowed Luther's seeds of dissent himself, he was just too ignorant to see it.


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

Thank you for your revelations, oh Dark Apostle, but Chaos is not a taint. It is freedom and bliss!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Thank you oh Dark Apostle of the blessed Daemon Primarch Lorgar, in the Book of Lorgar read Epistles of the Betrayer, Chapter 3 intoned as The Lion and his Pride. It will reveal the truth about the schism amongst the Legions of the False Emperor and of the treachery wrought by the Lion's schemes.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

We may call it taint brother, do not fear the wrath of chaos. For is it not a beautiful taint? One that shows us true power and the path to weilding it? As it is written in the Word it is the taint of power, true power. Glory to Chaos


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

The only real taint is the taint of the false emperor and his false teachings! They fear the raw power of Chaos!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Your name precides you brother for you are indeed wise.


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

True Wisdom is found in the freedom of Chaos! True Perfection is found in the power of Chaos!

Back to the thread... I really want Cypher to reach the emperor, regardless of the result. What if he's carrying the Emperor's sword and he resurrects the Emperor, or even better, the Emperor possesses his body? :shok:

On the same token, what if he slays the Emperor?


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

did someone say thread hijack, please stop guys, not cool.

Back on topic please guys.


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

Um, if you notice, I did return it to the orginal purpose by talking about Cypher. What do you guys think will happen if he ever reaches the Emperor?


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

gah, that isnt the topic, the topic is denoted by the thread title and this is about the DA's secrets, not what will happen if/when Cypher reaches the Emperor. And the way for the Emperor to resurrect is for him to die first, so he can't slay him without resurrecting him first, at which point the emp would kill him as soon as he saw malicious tendencies. NOW BACK TO DARK ANGELS!


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

CYPHER IS A FALLEN ANGEL! He very well might be the entire sum of the Dark Angel's secrets!


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Yes, but we are talking about the RIFT between the Fallen and the DA, NOT WHAT 1 FALLEN MAY OR MAY NOT EVER DO!


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Its ok guys calm down...I think only the Lion truely knows the secrets of the DA. Luther was possessed by chaos and twisted to their dark will so he probably doesn't know truth from lies. The other leaders of the current order know only what was passed to them and that info may have been diluted or falsified in its constant retelling...We must wait for the Lion...he will lead the way! (ps. he is a good guy. For the Emperor and against chaos.)


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah, I have to agree, I don't see anything that suggests the Lion is tainted... but I haven't read the Horus Heresy books yet.


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

I also haven't read the HH books but I can see in the DA Codex where you could make the argument for heresy. While his confession would be the biggest cleansing of all, why would the DA keep Luther alive and use him as an oracle (46) ? And who are the Watchers? No one seems to know, I've heard eldar, but isn't some Tzeenchen specter more likely, given their seemingly infinite lifespan?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Underground Heretic said:


> I also haven't read the HH books but I can see in the DA Codex where you could make the argument for heresy. While his confession would be the biggest cleansing of all, why would the DA keep Luther alive and use him as an oracle (46) ? And who are the Watchers? No one seems to know, I've heard eldar, but isn't some Tzeenchen specter more likely, given their seemingly infinite lifespan?


In Descent of Angels it describes Caliban as a world plagued by chaos-warped beasts. At one stage Jonsen goes on a solo hunt and encounters the Watchers in the Dark, and IIRC, they state that they predate all th other races, including the Eldar. If you look at the Azreal model you'll see they're definitly not Eldar.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060101324&orignav=10


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## TIE (Sep 2, 2008)

Nonono! You guys got it all wrong... DA's secret is something different altogether:

So they wear skirts... and their primarch is named after a homosexual poet... need I say more? :wink:

Hope you guys have a sense of humour and understand I'm just messin' with ya. :grin: I actually think Dark Angels are coolness incarnate, I just can't understand how this hasn't been brought up already...


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