# Thousand Sons ***SPOLIERS***



## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Best read of the HH so far and what an insight into the confusion, suspicion and manipulations of the early Heresy.

I do however have a few thoughts and questions.

1) I do think the TS were loyal to the end, hence Magnus's reluctance to battle the SW's on Prospero. However when he descends from his pyramid at the climax of the battle has made a pact with Tzeentch to transport his legion to the Planet of the Sorcerers?

2) The Tutelaries that are mentioned throughout the book, are they daemons?

3) What is the Rubric mentioned in the last sentencie if the book by Ahriman?

4) The last two pages of the book has left the seed of doubt in me. Are the TS totally comitted to Chaos are just the pursuit of knowledge by any means. The statements that they were loyal and that Ahriman set himself out o find a cure for the flesh change and be loyal to the Emperor once again has opened a series of possibilities.

5) That SW rune priest hell of a hypocrite!!! Cant stand the SW's now :angry:


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

1) pretty much!

2) i think so, im not to sure on it as towards end of the book they go banana crazy!

3)the rubric is the super spell ahriman attempts to cast to stop all mutation, which half worked and left all the non psyker Tsons as dust marines

4)Probably cursed to find all knowledge by tzeentch

5) yes he was a prick


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think the 1K Sons _thought_ they were loyal; however, Magnus' actions in making pacts with the Chaos Gods made whatever they thought utterly irrelevant. They were working towards the ends of Tzeentch wether they knew it or not.
What I find sad is the utter certainty they had, an almost blinding arrogance that they could study whatever they wanted and could master it. Without a doubt this has come from Magnus himself and it's not until he arrives on Terra, that he realises just how much he didn't know. I thought Magnus deserved everything he was going to get unti he meets the Emperor; he shafts the Imperial webway, knackers the Golden Throne and then, and only then, does he see why his father told him what he did. At that point I did feel sympathy.

2. I think the Tutelaries are Tzentchian daemons. The have led the Sons to believe that they are benevolent entities, there to help with the channeling of power. But, as the Wolves batter through Prospero, we see them actually turn on their erstwile masters, taking control of them and allowing the warp to pass through them unchecked, bringong about the fleshchange and the seepage of the warp onto the battlefield.

3. The Rubric of Ahriman is a spell that he, and a coven of the most powerful Sorcerors the Legion had left, performed to finally rid the Legion of the fleshchange. Unfortunately, what it did was make everyone above a certain level of sorcerous power more powerful, and those less powerful were turned to dust, their souls sealed inside their armour. This means that most Thousand Sons Astartes are in fact automata, merely armoured shells with barely any thoughts of their own, needing the direction of their more powerful brethren to function fully.

4. The last bit of the book says, to me at least, that Ahriman wants to find some way of making the knowledge that the Thousand Sons won available to the Imperium. He has seen what was lost and what good it might serve if Humanity is to become a fully psychic race. He knows that his Legion can't do this as they are considered traitors, but he wants to find a way around this. It could be a reference to the Blood Ravens origins and what their actual mission is.

5. Personally, I find this sudden Wolves 'hate' a bit odd. Not a dig at you, because I have seen it on a few sites now. Different societies see things in different ways, this perception colouring their attitudes towards it. Rune Priests may have, at the time, honestly beieved that what they were doing wasn't 'warp-based' as others were. Time will tell, I suppose.

A theme that I have noticed in the HH books is that of a growing, mmm, arrogance on the part of the Legions and their leaders. It seems that at this point in time, after all have shown just what they can do on the battlefield, that hubris has started to set in. The Astartes are starting to see themselves as something special; not just as specialists who excel in what they do for the greater glory of Humanity and the Emperor, but as actually better that mere mortals. Astartes concerns are coming more to the fore and fusing with Human concerns, then dominating and finally subsuming them.

GFP

ps These thoughts are just my own and I'm certainly not trying to make out that they are the only, or best, interpretation of what;s going on. There's loads to discuss in this book and if my thoughts achieve anything it will be as a first step off the springboard so kindly provided by Polynike.


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks for the comments guys.

@Penguin Ive never really been a fan of the SW's depsite being a scholar of Norse culture! I do agree with your assumption that the TS's were played by Tzeentch and Magnus more than any and I suppose we will have to wait for The Burning of Prospero to get Russ's point of view on it. There was a certain amount of subterfuge of the Rune Priests behalf on the first half of the book being all pally pally with Ahriman before turning on him and the TS's. I also concur with the arrogance point, but from all Legions not just traitor legeions. Maybe the Heresy had to happen to knock the SM's off their lofty perch. Perhaps the hand of the Emperor is to be seen in all this? He might have forseen it and regarded it as an inevitabel event knowing that some would turn against him while other primarcks would not, paralells to Judas and Peter.

As to Ahriman whats his current known status? Is he still part of the TS's? A deamon? Roaming the Eye of Terror? In current 40k canon what role do the TS's play? Do they partkae in Black Crusades or only show their hand when arcane knowledge or artifacts are in play?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

polynike said:


> As to Ahriman whats his current known status? Is he still part of the TS's? A deamon? Roaming the Eye of Terror? In current 40k canon what role do the TS's play? Do they partkae in Black Crusades or only show their hand when arcane knowledge or artifacts are in play?


Ahriman was exiled from the Legion following the Rubric of Ahriman. He was given the task of gaining knowledge to understand Tzeentch & Chaos, which some may argue is an impossibility. Whatever the case, he has plundered the galaxy for arcane knowledge for millenia, his latest goal is to gain access to the Black Library of Chaos - which he just narrowly failed to do (during the 13th Black Crusade). 

The Thousand Sons do take part in the Warmaster's crusades, but I imagine its only with the goal of attaining knowledge rather than to actually help the Chaos Forces.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm confused, what is the difference between this novel and Prospero burns?


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm confused, what is the difference between this novel and Prospero burns?


This one takes the story from the point of view of the TS, the other one will see the story from the SW's angle.

Thanks COE


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ahriman was exiled from the Legion following the Rubric of Ahriman. He was given the task of gaining knowledge to understand Tzeentch & Chaos, which some may argue is an impossibility. Whatever the case, he has plundered the galaxy for arcane knowledge for millenia, his latest goal is to gain access to the Black Library of Chaos - which he just narrowly failed to do (during the 13th Black Crusade).
> 
> The Thousand Sons do take part in the Warmaster's crusades, but I imagine its only with the goal of attaining knowledge rather than to actually help the Chaos Forces.



So does he have his own band of chaos marines? Other TS renegades perhaps?


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Ahriman has his own band but we don't really know what the band comprises of, some of the sons joined him when he was exiled, but he also has a tendency to pick up acoyltes as he travels the cosmos. he is generally accompanyed by a cabal of great sorcerers. The 1ks sons miitary activity is mainly targeted at destroying the wolves and destroying fenris, but it would appear that for the most of the time sorcerers are simply reading


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

polynike said:


> 5) That SW rune priest hell of a hypocrite!!! Cant stand the SW's now :angry:


He wasn't really, he actually believed that he wasn't using warp power, but the ancient shamanic skills of Fenris, which held that their power came from the cycle of life and death on Fenris, thus had nothing to do with the warp.

Don't be too quick to hate the SWs, if _Prospero Burns_ had come out first they'd probably be flavour of the month and the 1K sons the ultimate bad guys. Wait for both books, then decide.:victory:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I just finished the book this morning myself.

1: I don't think so. I think they were sort of fooling themselves telling each other they were loyal when their actions were totally at odds with what they preached. They may have done the wrong things for the right reasons, but they were still the wrong things and ultimatly they were following the path of Tzeentch rather than the Imperium.

2: I have no idea. Although I suppose it's possible it would be interesting to know if they still had them in the 41st Millenium.

3: The Rubic was a spell cast by Ahriman which rendered all the Sons who didn't have high psychic potential down into dust with their spirits trapped in their armour. He cast it in order to save the Legion from the rampant mutations they were experiencing.

4: It's possible they used to think that. However 10k years later and they're still one of the more powerful chaos legions. Admittedly they don't seem to have done much apart from attack Fenris (I love Madox by the way) and constantly fight a blood feud with the wolves. However the idea that they could be loyal to the Emperor and his ideals just not the current incarnation of the Imperium could be supported by the following quote.

"And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing, and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties."
-Ahriman of the Thousand Sons.

That could i suppose be read as having respect to the original ideals of the Crusade but despising what the imperium became. It's a little different from the whole "I SPIT ON THE EMPEROR'S NAME! AND DORN'S! AND GUILLIMAN! AND LION! AND SANGUINIUS!...." which the rest of the traitor legions parrot. 

5: I admit I'm not the biggest fan of the wolves myself (Dark Angels player) but I think the current round of Space Wolves hate is kinda daft. People seem to have got this idea that the wolves are utterly heroic noble and fuzzy puppies. If anything I think Russ had the right idea. Knowledge is a dangerous thing as Magnus proved and smashing his Legion and Prospero in general might not have been the nice thing, but it was the right thing. 
After all as Malcador said.

"To understand Chaos is to understand Insanity."


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Unsure of where I had read this, but I recall reading the Ahriman had lately been welcomed back to the Planet of Sorcerors; no-one knew why, but it obviously boded ill for the Imperium.

Back to the book. We see that Magnus, with the aid Tzeentch, was able to break into the webway. This raises the question can this be done still? I mean, could Tzeentch do this with its vast power, or was there something about Magnus/the circumstances that made it possible? If it's the former, then it suggests that Tzeentch is letting the webway remain for its own ends. If it's the latter, then there must be someone out there who has the state of mind needed...
There is still a lot of mystery about just what Magnus did to help his Sons. It's almost impossible to concieve of the Emperor not knowing what his son would do; he must have been convinced that Magnus would find an answer because once the Legion and Primarch were re-united, the big E buggered off to do something else. Could this be part of an overarching plan that sees the HH as necessary? _Visions_ as well as _A Thousand Sons_ both talk about the Golden Throne being Magnus' ultimate destiny, so is this just a blind to fool the dark gods? Might it be what he actually wanted?
I thought that Mr Mcniel did a great job at showing the blurring of the lines for the 1K Sons' attitudes to the powers they had. At first we see them being circumspect, keeping what they do in check, especially in front of others. But as the story progresses, they are using them all the time for more mundane things- and the vanity of one Marine using them to change how he looked. The Tutelaries are, to begin with, these wonderful, angelic beings who aid this Legion of psykers to harness the powers of the warp, powers that they obviously know all about...
It's like watching the jaws of some huge trap, one that was set-up long before any of the parties involved even had ancestors to make their existence a possibility, start to close inexorably and without pity; no-one who was ever in the trap is exempt, all of them caught in its jaws, jaws that rend the flesh as they burn the soul.

GFP

TL;DR, I thought it was a good book with some cool stuff to discuss.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I think magnus does mention towards the end of the book that he now saw that the destiny of his legion was pretty buggered from the begining.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Unsure of where I had read this, but I recall reading the Ahriman had lately been welcomed back to the Planet of Sorcerors; no-one knew why, but it obviously boded ill for the Imperium.


You would have read that in the conclusion of the Eye of Terror campaign. Where it was said that Ahriman's 'star is on the rise again' with Magnus - due to his Chaos causing during the 13th Black Crusade - y'know the whole summoning of the Leviathan and the Webway intrusion.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Back to the book. We see that Magnus, with the aid Tzeentch, was able to break into the webway. This raises the question can this be done still? I mean, could Tzeentch do this with its vast power, or was there something about Magnus/the circumstances that made it possible? If it's the former, then it suggests that Tzeentch is letting the webway remain for its own ends. If it's the latter, then there must be someone out there who has the state of mind needed...


Thats a good question. When I read it, I automatically presumed that Magnus acted as the conduit of Tzeentch's power which was then able to break in. Most of the (remaining) Webway is warded against Chaos intrusion, which must be successful in order for the Webway to still exist, so its possible that Tzeentch by himself isn't able to gain access, but through a powerful being he is.

Although to be honest, I wouldn't completely rule out that Tzeentch is capable of doing it himself, and that simply allows its existence. But one issue with that is the fact that Tzeentch's plans and schemes are infinite, which means that some will ultimately rely on the Webway's destruction - which if it was within his power to do, he would have done by now, merely for the sake of Change.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> There is still a lot of mystery about just what Magnus did to help his Sons. It's almost impossible to concieve of the Emperor not knowing what his son would do; he must have been convinced that Magnus would find an answer because once the Legion and Primarch were re-united, the big E buggered off to do something else. Could this be part of an overarching plan that sees the HH as necessary?


From this perspective and in this regard, I personally find that plausable at a stretch at best.

I guess its just another one of those unknown factors that seem surround the Emperor's decisions.

In regard to how Magnus stopped the 'Flesh-Change' upon being reunited with his Legion, (It obviously doesn't give us specifics but) theres a passage on Page 175-6 which describes Magnus wrenching the destiny of his Legion from the clutches of a 'malevolent shadow' - saving them also involved bargaining with the Warp Powers and somehow also involved the loss of his eye. Essentially we can read between the lines, but yeah you are right there is still a lot of mystery surrounding it, especially throughout the book.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I was also quite intrigiued, at the end of the book when Ahriman pushes a 'bolt of truth' into Wyrdmake, that Valdor seems to be implicated in the seeming change of Russ' orders from 'take Magnus prisoner' to 'utterly wolfenise the planet and anything else you fancy in the area'.
In one way, I did like the Custodes as being untouchable (no, not in that sense; or that one!) beings of pure intent, driven by the Emperor and having his considerations as the only thing on their mind when on a mission. But here we have a wrinkle, something to build a character on. What has Valdor said to change things? Was it really Valdor that made the grossest change to Russ' orders?
Just going back to Magnus on Terra. We know, now, that the Emperor and Magnus had a, for want of a better term, mind-meld! Now Magnus' whole schtick about this sorcerous intervention was two-fold. 1- to show his father that he, Magnus, was right all along about using his gifts to push further and further. 2- The Emperor needed to be able to see into Magnus' mind and witness everything he had witnessed about the corruption of Horus. This means, as far as I can see, the Emperor knows the truth of Magnus words and actually _is_ forewarned about what is going on. Does this put a new complection on what we know?
Lastly (I promise!). If the HH had been less destructive and the Emperor hadn't been put on the Golden Throne, do you think he might have been able to fix it/build a replacement? Hell, the fact that he found a piece of technology capable of doing what it did raises some pretty interesting questions in its own right. The Dark Age of Technology must hold some rolled-gold secrets about what Humanity was once able to do.

GFP

ps I really don't want to let this thread die!


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

I might point you guys in the direction of this thread as well. "A thousand sons (spoilers)". quite a good conversation going on here too. Don't stop! i just wanted you to be aware of this one as well. 

carry on, 

CP


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> He wasn't really, he actually believed that he wasn't using warp power, but the ancient shamanic skills of Fenris, which held that their power came from the cycle of life and death on Fenris, thus had nothing to do with the warp.
> 
> Don't be too quick to hate the SWs, if _Prospero Burns_ had come out first they'd probably be flavour of the month and the 1K sons the ultimate bad guys. Wait for both books, then decide.:victory:


AMEN TO THAT


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I have to admit the tragic nature of what befell the tsons has firmly activated my interest in them. I will have add several squads to my forces now. I guess the souece of the primarchs powers come from the warp in some form. In none of them is it as prevalent or as obvious as in magnus. I agree the legions was pretty much doomed by their heritage and their defective geneseed and the subtle manipulations of magnus himself. Yes he pretty much doomed his legion. He was convinced he was in control wheen he defied the emp. I do think however that for all his wisdom the emp should have enlightened Magnus rather than have him work in ignorance as magnus was alone in dealing with this kind of problem because of his innate powers.
Loved the book though. Want more.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

i love these guys, there so cool!


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm nearly done with this book.
Magnus knew he had to barter to "save" his legion, though he did not fully realize what he bartered at the time, and was in denial up until the end about being able to truely fix the problem.
The Emperor KNEW that this was going to happen to the legion. He specifically grouped the original legion together because of thier particular traits. He essentially set them up for failure. Then he goes and tries to deny them the ability to use that power. Talk about taking water away from a man dieing of thirst.

The legion itself - While some knew they had stepped over the line, I think most were doing what they believed was right, for the right reasons.
Essentially look at the passage in the later half of the book, Ahriman's story. They were placed together, emperor fully knowing their particular affinity, they were encouraged to develop this power. The emperor did nothing to step in and fix this problem in the first place, he had essentially abandoned them at this point already. They find Magnus who steps in and "fixes" the problem. The legions teachings is about moderation and control. The only times they really lose control is the percieved loss of their primarch.

I have not read the end, but everything I see so far points to them (unkowningly) doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, with the best intentions. They have a tendancy to put themselves in a catch-22 situation. Warn Horus, but in order to do it we have to use sorcery, all psy has been outlawed, If they do nothing then Horus is sure to fall. If they attemt to save his, by banished means, then they have a chance of saving him. 
What would you choose? 
Letting your brother fall, knowing you might have prevented it?
or
Defy the wishes of your father, knowing you will be punished, and try to save your brother?
it is situations such as that which has basically doomed them from the beginning.
Maybe they need to have a name change to Murphy's Son's?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think it is the utter arrogance of Magnus that is the real crux of the problem. If you listen to him talking about himself and his powers, he's alays going on about how exceptional he is, how great his mind is, how powerful he is with the warp and is only behind one person in the entire galaxy, in any of these fields.
He seems to be unable to comprehend the fact that he might not comprehend something once he turns his attention to it. He and the Emperor have flown through the warp together, the Big E teaching Magnus all he knew, more than he told any of the other Primarchs. He is utterly sure in his powers and knows no boundaries, to the point that he will make deals with warp entities including ones that he seems to recognise as a 'god' and will imagine he has the best of it for such a small price... Then he hits his limitations and shatters not just his world but a possible bright future for humanity, sacrificing his Legion in his guilt.
Yes, I think that the Emperor could have helped more with the mutation issues but I'm sure Magnus told him he was all over that and didn't need any help. Who's to know?
In all of the HH we've read so far, the Emperor seems to move around in the background, vast and inscrutable; his plans seem to be falling apart so easily, his decisions so utterly wrong and fateful. I want to blame him for things going wrong but it, at the same time, all seems so _organised_, _choreographed_, _planned_.
And to try to get to making some sort of point that is related to anything anyone else has posted(!), I think it is the way that Magnus goes about warning the Emperor that is the issue. He goes for a big in-your-face, smashing-through-the-webway, raaaaaargh-I'm-right Dad! And he's aided by a chaos god. The big E knows all of this as soon as they join minds and it might be this that pushes the Emperor against Magnus. He might see the 'truth' of Magnus revelation about Horus, but he also sees that he has been helped by Tzeentch to penetrate the webway, the great-hope for Humanity that is now lying in shattered ruins, legions of daemons massing to try to invade the Imperial Dungeon _as we speak_. Well, sort of

GFP


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