# Gene seed tithe



## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

So what's the point of that. Seems strange to me that SM's would hand over a portion of their most precious possession to the Mechanicus, unless it's to be used in the event that a chapter gets wiped out I guess, but I never read about that.


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

the Gene-seed tithe is also used for testing of said gene-seed for mutations and such. For as far as I recall anyhow.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

And yes some of the tithe is used for founding new chapters IIRC.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

cheeto said:


> So what's the point of that. Seems strange to me that SM's would hand over a portion of their most precious possession to the Mechanicus, unless it's to be used in the event that a chapter gets wiped out I guess, but I never read about that.


Well, for the most obvious reason why: If they don't do so, they will receive punitive action by the Imperium-- likely in the form of loyalist marines.

For other reasons, as others have pointed out, they need to see if there are any oddities in their geneseed (mutations, chaos taint, xenos infection). Also it allows the Imperium to found more Chapters. It is a very high honor to have a successor Chapter created from one's geneseed.

Also, in times of need, tithes can be greatly reduced or even completely withheld (for a time). The Imperium is understanding enough that a Chapter that has received massive causalities may skip or send smaller tithes for a couple centuries or three.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Beyond the actual reasons, as noted by Hailene et al, there might also be the fact that it it the primary test of a Chapter's loyalty; the way that tithes have worked for a long time.
If the Chapter 'pays up', then it is showing that it knows who's Boss and who calls the shots. Should the tithe be witheld (again, going past what Hailene mentioned, when circumstances mean a tithe is too much strain on necessary geneseed stocks), then it is a first glimmer that there needs to be a closer look taken by the Adeptus Terra to see what the problem is. I'd say it's almost like a safety feature, an alarm that is tripped by the absence of an action: no traitor Chapter would continue paying the tithe to leaders is has thrown off and any sub-par stuff sent to 'make up the numbers' would also be inspected more closely.

GFP


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## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

Gene seed tithe is in place so that when a chapter has tithed enough a new successor chapter is created. Only terra has the power to create a new chapter. Its also a way to guarantee that if a chapter is destroyed it can be remade. SMs are in the habit of fighting unwinnable wars vs impossible odds.


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## Capussa (Jun 22, 2012)

hailene said:


> Well, for the most obvious reason why: If they don't do so, they will receive punitive action by the Imperium-- likely in the form of loyalist marines.


See the Badab Wars for an example of this


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Anybody else have a sperm bank in mind when thinking about this?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Digg40k said:


> Anybody else have a sperm bank in mind when thinking about this?


You mean a bunch of men providing "samples" for offspring they'll probably never meet....? :laugh:


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

The Black Dragons come to mind. The AdMech have been looking very carefully at their tithes, but they're coming up pure, which is rather odd since they do have a noticeable mutation in the form of bone spines and ridges.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

not to mention you want to keep on the good side of the guys who make your guns,ammo and warmachines....


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Most chapters follow the tithe rule without question or care. Then you have chapters like the Black Dragons who display a unique mutation and their gene-seed is some how unmutated. Interesting, certainly it has nothing to do with the fact the Black Dragons seem to intentionally trying to piss the Inquisition off all the time lol


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> Most chapters follow the tithe rule without question or care. Then you have chapters like the Black Dragons who display a unique mutation and their gene-seed is some how unmutated. Interesting, certainly it has nothing to do with the fact the Black Dragons seem to intentionally trying to piss the Inquisition off all the time lol




In Death of Antagonis, it's explained that the Black Dragons have members with 0 mutations, some with the bone extensions that give their Chapter a bad reputation and some whose mutations have made them monsters. They send the gene-seed of the pure members to Terra for testing. A boring revelation indeed. I would prefer if they thought of some ingenious way of fooling the gene-seed biologists.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

I've heard that they were under suspicion of stealing another chapter's gene-seed somehow and using that to fool them. Interesting to say the least.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

It's no easy feat to steal gene-seed. Chaos Marines do it by annihilating a loyalist chapter. That would be noticed. And any other way would yield too little gene-seed for a tithe. Space Marines protect progenoids very well, even when on mission. In Deus Sanguinius, a Blood Angel ship is destroyed and another recovers the "black box" holding progenoids from marines who fell in battle earlier in the mission. You have to figure a container that can survive a Warp engine or plasma reactor exploding is carrying something very valuable.


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## Romanov77 (Jan 27, 2013)

I was wondering... what is stopping the Mechanicum from creating their pet Astartes chapters?


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Romanov77 said:


> I was wondering... what is stopping the Mechanicum from creating their pet Astartes chapters?


Probably the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra lol


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Romanov77 said:


> I was wondering... what is stopping the Mechanicum from creating their pet Astartes chapters?





Ddraig Cymry said:


> Probably the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra lol


That and they don't really need one. Skittari are (depending on the source, the term seems to cover a wide range of troops) anything from better than space marines, to almost as good, to crappy but completely re-usable. Plus the Mechanicus also has greater access to/control of the Titan Legions and probably some of those Knight robots still kicking around. They don't need Space Marines.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I love it, even in WH40K with hyper-engineered Astares you have the specter of faked drug tests. "Your progenoid shows the same amounts of estrogen as a pregnant woman... is this gene tithe actually from you, or did you get it from the Sisters of Silence?"


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> "Your progenoid shows the same amounts of estrogen as a pregnant woman... is this gene tithe actually from you, or did you get it from the Sisters of Silence?"


Ha. lol I think it's mostly for chaotic or uncontrollable mutations


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Lance armstrong is a space marine. A miracle of modern chemistry.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Skittari are (depending on the source, the term seems to cover a wide range of troops) anything from better than space marine


We've seen well-equipped Skittari units, but I don't recall them being better than an equal sized Astartes unit. When did this happen?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> We've seen well-equipped Skittari units, but I don't recall them being better than an equal sized Astartes unit. When did this happen?


Well, I recall one story (which I can`t recall the name of, maybe Dark Apostle?) where they were described as human bodies with mini-track legs and wired in missle launchers, meltaguns and heavy bolters, which effectively made them as fast as a vehicle whilst also having more, heavier weaponry than a marine. Sounds better to me. Though, as I said, not all Skittari are like this but the option is there.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I looked through _Dark Apostle_. You were close.

About a third of the way through the book, the WBs fight some Mechancius troops. They tear through the shield servitors and then rip apart the skitarii. Though these skitarii are better armed than regular Guardsmen, they're no match for the Astartes.

Then more troops in the form of "Heavily armoured servitors" engaged the WBs. They were probably the troops you were thinking about. They were about the size of a Space Marine and well-armed and armored.

They were probably more heavily armed than regular, bolter-wielding Astartes, though whether they were "better" is debatable. They are, however, undoubtedly not Skitarii.

Later on, heavily-armed, centaur-like troops are brought up, but they aren't referred to as Skitarii either.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Can I ask what the main difference is between a Skitarri and Servitor?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I looked through _Dark Apostle_. You were close.


Ah, my bad, I read that book a while ago so I guess the names and descriptions all kind of blurred together. As I said there doesn't really seem to be a hard and fast definition for what a 'Skittari' is, beyond something that's part human, part machine and a soldier of the Mechanicus (similarly Space Marine can cover everything from a Scout (which regular soldiers can be better than) to a Dreadnought). My point was that the Mechanicus doesn't need to steal gene-seed to make superior soldiers, and whatever they are called in the book (is it Praetorians? Or is that something else as well...) they are at least close to Tactical Marine-level killing power.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> Can I ask what the main difference is between a Skitarri and Servitor?


Both are cyborgs. The skitarri are able to think, while the servitors are mindless robot slaves.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> As I said there doesn't really seem to be a hard and fast definition for what a 'Skittari' is, beyond something that's part human, part machine and a soldier of the Mechanicus (similarly Space Marine can cover everything from a Scout (which regular soldiers can be better than) to a Dreadnought). My point was that the Mechanicus doesn't need to steal gene-seed to make superior soldiers, and whatever they are called in the book (is it Praetorians? Or is that something else as well...) they are at least close to Tactical Marine-level killing power.


In the Dan Abnett book Titanicus it describes hordes of Skittari swarming around the legs of the some of the Titans thousands at a time, in a seeming completely secondary battle to the main one being fought. Considering, the Astares would never have been needed even in the GC, or useful still in 40K, if the Mechanicum could just crank out template Skittari that were anywhere near the deadliness of an Astares. Skittari could still be every bit more deadly than even your elite Imperial soldier, but I think BL authors sometimes use a little too much hyperbole in their description.

As such, I do think there's still a case for Mechanicum forces who would want to hijack Space Marine progenoid glands, especially if they were being corrupted by Chaos hashcode. If nothing else than to try and create their own Skittari/Astares hybrid designs.

And not to be a Space Marine fanboy, but the only difference between an Astares Scout and a full fledged Space Marine are the black carapace and a few years experience in a Scout company, to my understanding. How would you think that regular Imperial soldiers could be better than an Astares Scout? Or are you thinking run-of-the mill inexperienced Scout vs. elite DCK or Cadian Guardsman?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> My point was that the Mechanicus doesn't need to steal gene-seed to make superior soldiers, and whatever they are called in the book (is it Praetorians? Or is that something else as well...) they are at least close to Tactical Marine-level killing power.


I agree that the Mechanicus can churn out better armed, better discplined line troops than most Imperial Guard regiments. (Though I'd imagine they'd struggle more with less traditional troops like a recon regiment.)

To go off on a tangent, I don't think anything the Mechanicus can make quite hits the golden ratio that is an Astartes. Sure, the Ad. Mech can make something bigger or stronger or faster or more armored than an Astartes, but the overall package seems much less than the sum of a Space Marine.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> And not to be a Space Marine fanboy, but the only difference between an Astares Scout and a full fledged Space Marine are the black carapace and a few years experience in a Scout company, to my understanding. How would you think that regular Imperial soldiers could be better than an Astares Scout? Or are you thinking run-of-the mill inexperienced Scout vs. elite DCK or Cadian Guardsman?


I think physically a Space Marine scout would come out ahead of even the most harden trooper. The most basic and earliest implants make them bigger, stronger, and more resistant to damage than any un-augmented human could hope to be. 

Though a few years in a scout company or even a youth on a death world wouldn't give them quite the same edge as someone who's been fighting major campaigns for the majority of their life. In this sense, a regular guardsmen may be superior to a scout.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> Can I ask what the main difference is between a Skitarri and Servitor?


Skitarri is the Mechanicus catch all term for its cybernetically enhanced soldiery. It's a very broad term and there have been wildly different forces all called skitarri. Some seem like augmented guardsmen where others are portrayed as custom designed and vat grown super soldiers then further augmented with cybernetics. 

Servitor are worker units with minimal intelligence of their own, often slaved to an overseer. They have substantial cybernetic augmentation to facilitiate their role in construction, drink serving, data gathering or whatever function they've been created for. Many are made from lobotomized humans.


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