# Are Chaos Better then the Imperals?



## MajorChaos (Oct 9, 2008)

I think that chaos are not better then the Imperals I think there better but my friend Shane thinks so he is a hard core chaos fan and me and my other friends cast him out and tell him that chaos suck lol, But to my point... Is Chaos Better then the Imperals i just want ppls input about this...


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Well, seeing as how Shane is my cousin i also tell him hes playing for a losing team. Chaos is just a bunch of tratiors and monsters. The Imperium is, i admit weaker than it used to be, but with all of the followers of the Emeror united chaos wouldnt stand a chance. So im going to say....FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!:yahoo:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

yes, no, maybe, who knows, who cares, cats, dogs.

the imperium goes around for no good reason killing entire worlds of innocent people
Chaos go around killing entire worlds of innocent people for no good reason

chaos, imperium, there all the same market


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I agreee with Stella, only major difference is at least Choas knows why they are killing, the Imperium does it for a corpse on a toilet who has not said a word to anyone in 10k years.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Meh. Free will over blind faith? I think I know where my vote's going. :biggrin:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Free will that turns you into a pile of snot if you don't do what a god tells you?

I'd prefer a bolt round to the head thanks.

Still, you're chaos. You fight for who you want. You have no honour, no scruples, no loyalty? You've refused what one god gave to you, who's to say you don't do it again?

You went for pleasures and material goods, instead of for what is right.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

"Right" is subjective. :wink:


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Still, you're chaos. You fight for who you want. You have no honour, no scruples, no loyalty? *You've refused what one god gave to you, who's to say you don't do it again?*


Based on the HH books, I'd say this isn't entirely true, the Emperor at the time was abjectly against his divinity and one of the deciding factors in Horus choosing to fight against the Emperor was the growing cult of the Emperor proclaiming him to be a god.

I would also suggest that Chaos Marines have both honour and loyalty, just to a different cause than the corpse-emperor.

Are you also trying to suggest that "right" is the organization which willingly feeds thousands of souls a day to the emperor so he can carry on existing? At least Chaos only takes the souls that go of their own free will rather than being carted off to be fed to a corpse.

However - this discussion is very similar to discussing which is the best of two different serial killers, at the end of the day they're both about as fucked up as each other and it just comes down to splitting hairs


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

I'd suggest that willingly feeding thousands of souls every day to the Emperor is, in fact, "right" in this particular situation. If the Golden Throne isn't fed, the Emperor dies. He dies, the Astronomican stops working. The Astronomican stops working, the Navigators can't navigate. And finally, if the Navigators can't navigate, Warp travel becomes impossible, all the worlds (or at least systems) in the Imperium are cut off from one another, and what was once the mighty Imperium of Man is now just easy prey to be destroyed piecemeal by an ultimately hostile galaxy. In other words, if the Emperor is allowed to die, all indications (vague prophecies aside) suggest that Humanity dies with him.

Having said that... Chaos for the win!


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Well I am gonna get off topic first; but the Emperor is misplaced, I mean he even said that he wasn't a god and that's one of the reasons why turned on him.I just bet that if he was revived or something along those lines he would be downright pissed off at the High Lords of Terra, the Adeptus Astartes and the Machine Cult for keeping mankind stuck right where he left it and not advancing into the future, because of superstitions and ridiculous ideals.He would probably say that they are no better then the forces of chaos.Hell he might just end leaving the Imperium like some of the primarchs had done.So to answer youre question it doesnt matter which one is better.


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## surreal-mind (Oct 11, 2008)

they are two sides of the same coin, they are both evil and righteous in there own ways


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

chaos and the imperium are like identical twins. both exactly the same but very slight differences that makes them different. personally i would prefer being a member of the imperium to being a member of chaos for obvious reasons but you can still die a horrible death from either.


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

Chaos seems to have a more defined purpose, total domination. Where the Empire is in a mire of confusion, own the stars or be the lackies of a corpse or follow the misdirection of ambitiuos men under the guise of divine leadership. Chaos is probably more "good" because they are true to their cause. Where the Imperials are veiled and shady using decption to lead and try to conquer instead of just saying "I want it all" and taking it as Chaos does. Good or bad. Relative terminoligy. I am biased though.
CHAOS for the win!:crazy:


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## Lioneljohnson510 (May 28, 2008)

there more inhanced but arnt as cool


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

Well OP, tell Shane he is a big stupid-face, because thats what _everyone_ who likes Chaos is.

*A BIG STUPID-FACE*

True story. 

Any and all those who support Chaos, Xenos, and anything else unatural, are traitors to the human race and deserve to be purged with the righteous roar of your Boltgun.

Thats just how it is. 

:/

But, remember, there is always hope, even for the most wayward of heretics! Recent research done in M38,385 shows that a combination of ritual flagellation and torture is the cure for the common heretic.

If all else fails, just be sure that you refer him to your local ecclesiarchal representative. He may be suitable for Archo-flagellation.

Good luck with Shane!


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Gakmesideways said:


> Well OP, tell Shane he is a big stupid-face, because thats what _everyone_ who likes Chaos is.
> 
> *A BIG STUPID-FACE*
> 
> ...


well then... fuck you :fuck:

chaos is technically still human so therefor only betrayed the Imperium

emperor = fail


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> well then... fuck you :fuck:
> 
> chaos is technically still human so therefor only betrayed the Imperium
> 
> emperor = fail


You can attempt to fuck me all you want.

It won't change how silly your face is.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

emperor = fail sauce and nothings going to change that, not even his golden toilet :so_happy:


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

Wait, who won the Horus Heresy?

Oh, right, the Imperium.

What did we win?

Oh, right, that sweet golden toilet.

/end thread


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

noise marine seems to like being a jackass man calm down it's a game.


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## sopmod (Oct 9, 2008)

when i'm in charge playing ig i know what side i would like to be on the oppsite.

Glory for the imperium cos i'm not on the front line


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Thank you, I'll be sure to try the torture thingk::biggrin:
lol


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Well "Gakmesideways" I would have to say if u actually think he can accomplish that u are sadly mistaken :biggrin: also I'll just have to provide u with a one of my twisted thoughts of tortue some time :so_happy: it will be a nice bonding experience especially the part where I make u swear ure allegiance to the blood god :grin: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ok getting back on track here. chaos is better, total freedom all you really have to do and you dont have to, is to pledge yourself to chaos and that's it! freedom to do what you want and the power to do it. we were betrayed by the imperium so our cause is the most righteous. and no im sorry whoever said that if the imperium were to band together and assault chaos they would win is a complete moron. once your sane humans hit the inside of the eye you fuckers would wouldnt stand a chance. it wont happen, ust like saying that another black crusade with some of the chaos primarchs wont happen........oh wait it will:fuck:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Define freedom.

Bow to the will of the Emperor from choice, and fighting for what is right, or go to a Chaos God, after you've fallen for bribery, lies, and the promise of mortal rewards, only to find that he requires more and more worship, just to keep these 'gifts' from turning round, and turning into a spawn of chaos, or be killed, just so some higher power can rise, only to be defeated in turn.

BlackApostleVillain, I just keep hearing fanboy trash talk - and when you're resorting to using 'fuckers' to 'win' an argument, you lose all respect.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

like that's not what's coming from the imperial side vaz? fanboy trashtalk? what is right has everything to deal with a person's opinion on what is right. im not being an ignorant stubborn asshole im just having fun and getting into this pointless argument. SO the next time YOU make an argument on what is right remember that from our point of view WE are right and YOU are wrong. what is right and what is wrong is left to be decided by each and every human being, there is no set right and wrong.

you have been reading too much propoganda from your imperium, what do you think complete freedom is? chaos, complete and utter freedom to do what you want when you want how you want. and those that are truly strong and worthy need not be afraid of the gods. bribery? lies? nay, what do you call daemonhood vaz? ultimate power and a gift from the dark gods. they reward those who have earned it just like any god would.

as for the chaos gods being destroyed, so long as the imperium still breathes chaos will live on. your precious imperium would have to be annihilated to the last man for chaos to even get close to being destroyed and even then the gods would feed off of the other races.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ultimate power, as long as you do the gods bidding?

Where does freedom come into that?

You were promised complete freedom, yet you still serve a master, who decieved you, promising untold power, and the wish to do whatever you want. But despite that, why are their Chaos Spawn? Champions of the chaos gods, blessed by mutation, who displeased them, and became degenerates?

I don't pretend to agree and say the Imperium as a whole is Free, but for mankind to survive it requires a strong, ruthless leadership. Chaos have the same ethic, minus the morals. Chaos gods are created, you said yourself, by weakness shown in particular by humans. You're a human (Space Marine or Guardsmen), and you're fighting for someone who feeds off your essence when you die? Basically, you're dying just so some greater power can stay alive, a tool to be used.

Those who stayed loyal realised that there are greater things than just take take take and want want want. However, the segregation of the Heresy just split the embattled Imperium. You're fighting for freedom? You fought for the Emperor who wanted mankind to be masters of the galaxy, maybe even universe. But instead, you turned your back on his light, and became a fighter for your own death. Good thinking there.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

the emperor turned his back on us when he left the great crusade. he put one brother above the others which inevitably led to animosity between them all. everyone has ******, i never said i didnt. the only chaos god that most likely has complete control over his followers is tzeentch. as for khorne, nurgle and slaanesh all you have to do is feed them souls. that's it. they dont say how they dont say who. kill is the only commandment coming from them.

the people of the imperium serve masters also, emperor/high lords/governors and the like. all souls go to the immaterium when they die, especially space marines. so it doesnt matter if i die and they eat my soul cause if i died fighting them the same thing would happen. chaos is for those who have the will and the drive to kill and live forever. i dont care if i have a master, i worship them as a pantheon. they are extremely giving masters and let you do as you please so long as you kill.

the chaos spawns are those who have become too foolish and in some way slighted the chaos gods, they are the weak willed. i am a space marine, space marines were made to be tools. the only difference between you and me is that i had a conscience 10k years ago and made my choice to have the freedom to kill and get what i deserve, sure i have masters who want me to kill for them but when that is what someone wants to do, is kill, then that becomes another freedom.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd say the Imperium has a strength to linger against Chaos, but the problem it has is its outlook and attitude brings it into conflict with other races that if not for the xenos complex and hatred, would possibly be willing to fight alongside them. (Tau, Eldar, hell I think even Blood Axes could be swayed if you got the right Warlord.)

Instead they fight everything, and eventually this will lead to their downfall, possibly with a second storming of Terra by Chaos, as thats exactly where the Legions will want to finish it, wheres as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons etc will probably be happy moping up their areas of the fringe and galatic rim.

As for philosphy regarding the two factions, its hard to judge, the stories and fluff seem to paint varying degrees of humanity, where although Exterminus happens, its not used as often as some folks seem to think it is. 

To be honest if I was going to pick any part of Humanity, I'd take the fringe, either a Rogue Trader type who walks along the line and sees both faces, and might well work with the other races on occasion. Or Renegades, who follow no particular Chaos God, and just stand against the Imperium and Chaos, for their own territory or beliefs.

Although saying all that as a Chaos Player, the Imperium is DOOOOOOMED!!!


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## Gakmesideways (Aug 16, 2008)

SonOfHorus said:


> Well "Gakmesideways" I would have to say if u actually think he can accomplish that u are sadly mistaken :biggrin: also I'll just have to provide u with a one of my twisted thoughts of tortue some time :so_happy: it will be a nice bonding experience especially the part where I make u swear ure allegiance to the blood god :grin: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!


Oh my.

Bonds?

Do you promise?

I haven't done S+M for ages.


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

If there was a second storming of Terra I'm confident that chaos would lose, just like the first time


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

I declair myself between. For the Star child!
The Imperium is corrupt, stagnent, and religos (Blegh!uke. They need a new leader who knows whats going on and dosent have a problom with the Xenos _just_ for being xenos. Tau? Hell yes! I'm not saying I'll join the greater good, but I'll give you colonisation rights to a cople dozen systems for plans to one of those battlesuits!
Chaos? I probably dont want to piss off them gods. I'll make you guys a deal: You let my ships pass thru the warp freely, I'll keep on having wars. You get souls, I get infrastructure.
To reiterate: FOR THE STAR CHILD!!!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Col. Schafer said:


> I declair myself between. For the Star child!
> The Imperium is corrupt, stagnent, and religos (Blegh!uke. They need a new leader who knows whats going on and dosent have a problom with the Xenos _just_ for being xenos. Tau? Hell yes! I'm not saying I'll join the greater good, but I'll give you colonisation rights to a cople dozen systems for plans to one of those battlesuits!
> Chaos? I probably dont want to piss off them gods. I'll make you guys a deal: You let my ships pass thru the warp freely, I'll keep on having wars. You get souls, I get infrastructure.
> To reiterate: FOR THE STAR CHILD!!!



i like it, you should be promoted to being a high lord of terra


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes I do promise :biggrin: It will be fun don't worry u wont die quickly we will get to spend much time together.... if you stay awake long enough =]


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

CommanderAnthor said:


> noise marine seems to like being a jackass man calm down it's a game.


and everytime a pro imperium person says something like this, gakmesideways as an example, they dont get yelled at, so Anthor shut up


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Can we keep the hostility to a minimum guys? We're all friends here...:scratchhead:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Yea Imperium is not all that great, it is after all the Imperium of man.


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## Netganks (Oct 16, 2008)

i think that the Imperals have more people then choas and there for are stronger but choas has the demons on there side so it is about even but i still think space mariens are cooler then chaos


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Emperor'sChild88 said:


> If there was a second storming of Terra I'm confident that chaos would lose, just like the first time


It's not our fault! It's just that this edition of codex sees us off to be "Cobra in space". We're hilarious villains with a constant "We'll get you next time!" thing going for us.

And you wouldn't dare be saying that to us last edition! You and your 3+ invul saves and silly HQ choices! We vanilla chaos marines scoff at you from our parapets of 'terror' and 'zanyness'.

Seriously. You just wait til we get a codex where the dark gods pay attention, than you'll be sorry.


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

I dont think the chaos gods will ever pay attention:fuck:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

now thats just sad man, without Chaos there will be no Emepror or anything you hold der, comon giv us the deserved credit or may the Dark Gods give you mutations you regret.


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

i think you got it backwards. without humanity, there would be no chaos:shok:. I will admit that chaos poses a huge threat to the Imperium, but its a threat that can be beaten. Hopefully...


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Dillon Chaos will never die it feeds off of the Imperiums people that they treat like worthless things but chaos gives them rewards i mean seriously why wouldn't you want to go to chaos they give u big flashy weapons if you become good enough =] and you can become a demon prince if you are totally bad ass what does the Imperium do? They force you to live in the worst possible places and if you do something good they don't reward you they just expect you to do it again they are nothing but power hungry fools :biggrin:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Yea what he said, sell your life for servitude to the False Emperor, otherwise known as Joe Schmoe or attain freedom through your soul


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Hah, your wasting your breath Shane. You know i would never forsake my oaths to the Emperor like you have. Unlike you i beleive in morals and I will never take the easy way out. Its easy to be a traitor shane, but to be loyal...always loyal through the hardest times, that takes courage and strength. Service under the Emperor is reward enough.
Duty and honor Shane.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

on the topic of a second storming of terra EC88, imperium would lose hands down. if the chaos legions were able to make their way TO terra then they definately could take it without a problem. what loyal primarchs do you know of who could just sit up and say "I will defend terra cause im still alive and well."? none as far as i can tell and there are still 7 traitor primarchs ready to lead their legions. AND on top of that the imperium has space marine chapters now not legions. they would get crushed. and i dont think there is anyone in the imperium that could stand up to Angron at this point in time, he was only banished for 100 some odd years, HA! that just pissed him off even more!

not to mention alpharius and omegon somewhere behind imperial lines, lorgar and his numerous cults, perturabo who would once again tear down terra's defences, fulgrim who would rape everything in site, magnus and his sorcerors, mortarion and all his damned diseases, and of course back to angron who is pretty much unbeatable. 

we also have numerous champions such as kor phaeron, lucius the eternal, ahriman, typhus, kharn and of course we cant forget Abaddon who is probably on par with the primarchs now in power. in short the imperium would be fucked.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Marines have Marneus Calgar. Fluff aside, he'd rape the Traitor Legions mano-et-mano.

Seriously though, if the traitor Legions ever made it intact to Terra, which they wouldn't they would find forces assembled that were not there during the Great Crusade and the first siege. A Chapter is a far more efficient force than a Legion. 1000 or so Chapters making their way to defend against the Traitor Legions, with more powerful ships, solely designed to get close and obliterate, compared to the Generic Ships of the Chaos Fleets, which are just glorified Troop Transports.

Then, you have still to get through the Cadian Gate. Even with the full might of Chaos, you couldn't get through. Terra is even more strongly defended now than before. You would slowly bleed yourselves to death, and while it would be a huge blow to the Imperium, you still have supply routes to maintain, which the Imperium has a complete monopoly of. To control them, you have to split your forces. Weakening one or the other.

I agree that while the Hammer of Chaos will hit hard, it can only hit that once - a Legion is too unwieldly to use, while a Chapter can just raid your supplies. Hell, the 13th Company defeated the 6th Grand Company (a difference of perhaps 800-1000+ marines) of the Black Legion. It's not going to be all chaos' way.

You speak of Alpharius _and_ Omegon. One is dead. The other is a rumour. You spread so many lies, you don't know whether it's true that there are twins. Why did Horus only find the one, then?

7 Primarchs. 2 are dead. We have many who are missing, who await the return of the Emperor. Believed to happen in the Starchild theory, a great sacrifice is needed, in his name. Surely you're not going to try and cause such a thing? Bring the anathema to Chaos back to life, to lead all his forces?

Then, Russ, Jaghatai, Vulkan, and Corax will return, Dorn is lost as well, he will return to aid against Chaos, and particularly to defeat Perturabo. Guilliman is healing. The Ultramarines will not go down without a fight, in the hope that he will return.

Then, you have your own internicine struggles. Tzeentch hates Nurgle, Slaanesh Hates Khorne, Nurgle hates Tzeentch, Khorne hates everyone. You will end up fighting amongst yourselves (Skalathrax?).

Going back to Legions vs. Chapters.

You have against you 10 Chapters (equal size to your Legion). Each one is different. You have just the same tactics. A Chapter itself as well will be able to fight on its own - you just destroy the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves will not be affected (well, they'll give you a pint, then kill you).

You Champions are particularly few and far between. The Imperium has 1000 Chapter Masters. It has a dedicated Daemon Hunting Force. It has more assassins than you an shake a stick at. You're not telling me, that Abaddons Bodyguard is going to be more interested in watching for snipers/Callidus knifes/Exploding Psychopaths/Psychic Nulls frying his head than killing loyalists?

Plus, you're forgetting the reason behind the first assault on Terra. You had Horus. No one has his compulsion, ability as a leader, or empathy, which made him so successful.
Abaddon is a damn good leader, and a powerful fighter, but he's only the Warmaster, because he took the leadership. You fled right after the death of Horus. Why? It was a last ditch attempt to kill Horus to end the war? Your leader dies, you run away?

And you call loyalists cowards? Next joke.


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## surreal-mind (Oct 11, 2008)

and you go into turmoil when the emperor dies...nice


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What's this 'when'?


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## surreal-mind (Oct 11, 2008)

he may as well be dead, all he is, is a giant generator and fuse box, no real leadership...


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Not true. He provides the beam so that starships can traverse the Warp, and so make longer journeys drastically shorter.

When you're being a beacon for hope -- for thousands of light years around -- by only sitting down, whilst 0.00001% alive, _and_ granting visions for those who are about to become heroes (or, if you're Guard, _an_ hero), then you're not a bad floor manager.

-Edit

Also when you're brave enough to stop demons bursting out of your toilet, you get my vote ten fold.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

the alpha legion did have two primarchs, read the HH novel Legion. and we dont know if guilliman did kill alpharius. the account that we have was written by an ultramarine captain, he's going to embellish and lie a bit, especially after the fact that they were soundly beaten and they knew it.

about the black crusades and the cadian gate read the black crusades thread on this website and you'll figure out that cadia and the rest of the imperium isn't all that safe. and i beg to differ that legions are more unweidly than chapters. sure chapters have less marines and therefore should be easier to control, on the other hand you have men who have been leading these legions since before all of your chapter masters have even been born. the legions consist of neigh on a hundred thousand marines and if not even more. 

the starchild is a THEORY. since when did these become truths? and on top of that marneus calgar would easily get killed. i have no doubt that the various chapter masters would definately cause some serious damage but calgar in no way shape or form could stand up to a traitor primarch or daemon prince let alone a greater daemon. the traitor legions had conquered the galaxy before the heresy and you say they arent effective? you must be blind. they've done more since their inception than any of the current chapters with the exception of the first founding chapters that were once legions. 
they conquered all in their path and set terra and the whole imperium alight with the heresy.

and how do you know what ships the chaos fleets consist of? they are most certainly NOT just troop transports. even though they have these in excess they have all the astartes battle barges that were in control of the legions at the turn of the heresy and all that have turned with renegade marines, they have countless imperial navy ships that were either traitor or captured. not to mention the forge worlds and dark mechanicus they have pumping out munitions, tanks, ships and god knows what else. oh and i almost forgot that they had TWO blackstone fortresses AND they KNOW how to use them. how many does the imperium have now? 0.

the imperium is fucked with the next black crusade. if one primarch(angron) and half his legion could cause hell for two hundred some odd years by themselves in just one sector, sheesh your imperial pride better see you through. and in case anyone didnt notice the next black crusade that is due will happen right around when angron's hundred years are up and he can enter the material realm again. no loyal primarch can stand up that and he slaughtered the grey knights that were sent to kill him, and they didnt even accomplish that, he was only banished for 100 years! that's it!

you talk as if guilliman is actually healing. show me the words where it specifically states this and i will believe it, until then your lieing. the rest of the loyal primarchs havent lead their legions since the heresy and two hundred years after. ours have led them since they were found on their damned home planets up until now. and they lead LEGIONS not chapters.

as for the chaos gods hating each other, of course they bicker and fight just like forces inside the imperium but your telling me abaddon doesnt have the drive that horus did? i believe he has more in truth. his gifts that have been given to him are tenfold then what horus had and ALL the chaos gods back him, as they did horus. and i doubt some lowly assassin will be able to kill him of all people. the only reason one was able to kill the nighthaunter was because he let her. abaddon is driven by the deepest hatred that im sure almost none could match and this alone gives him great power. he is surely no fool and each black crusade was orchestrated for a certain purpose as you will find out in that thread and if you are at all tactically sound.

the imperium would lose, you just dont want to say it.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ha! i love the toilet comment lol


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Well, ya know, I try...

Also, whether the Imperium would fall or not, the fact of the matter is; no one truly knows.


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## SkeletonPhoenix (Oct 20, 2008)

Ok. The whole warhammer 40K universe is f'd up. The only "good guys" are the Eldar or the Tau. Even then arguements against there Good guy status will arise.


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## sopmod (Oct 9, 2008)

having been following this thread for some time i have relised that a) the cadian Gate ahs fallen only Cadia stands under seige. Black Legonaires pooring out of the Gate. B)Yes i admit the Imperial propably could take the Black Legon and its demon friends and squish it about as affectively as a hurd of stampiding bufflo hurd if 6 million against 60 heavy machine guns= victory but with about 1/2 dead. But the imperum has less than half of its army in the cadian sector and that quater of the glaxey but it is mostly reforcing around the hive fleet levitan area, fighting tau, fighting necrons, fighting the red corsairs and many other rebal chapters/ companys.... the list is almost endless not to mention individual wars like the 3rd war for armegedon, ok argemidedon was saved but war still rages around the area. D) yes Gulliman is healing SLOWLY certanly not in time. Leman russ is killing everything in the eye of terror and possibaly a few others. But none can stand for the clone of Horus (this is posted in another thread but breifly horuses unique lighting claw can only fit Horus or his clone) Abadonn. Who would crush Russ now he has all his given powers form korn... +all other primarchs. E) I can't rember where i heard this but between Cadia and Terra there is nothing major stopping them.

This has caused my 400+ IG units dressed fully in the colours of Cadia have taken a shade of red.




For the BLOOD GOD may his seas of blood be full tonight!


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

It does look like the Imperium is in the s***. but they are stronger than Chaos.

They triumphed over Abbadon and his black crusades, triumphed over Armageddon. The Imperium is stronger than the chaos as they have been wopping there ass, the imperium have been fighting a lot with orks, tau, nids, necrons and chaos and are still holding back. the might be in the S*** but still strong.

also about chapter masters, they could take down a demon prince depending on the chapter master and Magnus Calger isnt the best Chapter Master and he cant take down a Primarch or 2 demon princes, GW just wrote about him the most.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ferrus manus show me some examples of how the imperium has so greatly whooped chaos' ass. until then the argument of "im better than you so there" is not going to work. provide concrete examples


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Armageddon. 12 Bloodthirsters and a Daemon Primarch, killed by a single company of Grek Knights.

Mathammer states that the Primarch killed 7, maybe 8 Grey Knights. Ouch, that's bad.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

math hammer? please the fluff states he killed all but 5 and they didnt even kill him, they "banished" him to the warp for 100 years. big woop. the emperor's farts last that long


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Big woop. "Some all powerful" daemon primarch _AND_ his huge ass bodyguard fails to even kill an entire company of 'measly' Space Marines?

And he is banished for 100 years?

You don't think that it can't be done again. I think that the Grey Knights might be a bit more daring this time. Send only 50. Hell, these recruits need their practise against something that might be dangerous, you know.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

HA! ill give you that one. the only reason he was banished was because the warpstorms were failing, which was what was weakening him and his bloodthirsters. 

and yes i dont hink it can be done again. they didnt banish him again when he burned through almost 100 systems did they? i believe that if an assault on terra were to happen again nothing would stop him short of the emperor himself. he was a daemon prince when he reached terra and i can gaurentee of there were to be another assualt it would take way more than 100 grey knights to banish him. 

and he did kill them all the other ones died while banishing him, he needed a little snack while he was going to be in the warp. dont act like that isnt a big deal. i know how powerful the grey knights are and what they are capable of and im not going to lie about it (not saying you are). you know its going to take a lot more to get rid of him if there was another assault on terra. a whole company died while fighting him and his bloodthirsters who were horribly outnumbered. but they can still materialize in this realm, so although they were banished they arent dead. 

and they fought just him and his bodyguard. they would have to fight through his legion to get to him in the assault no teleporting right into his midst. not only this but theyd have to deal with the other daemon primarchs AND numerous daemon princes. the grey knights are badasses yes but i dont think they would be able to hold up against all that. all the traitor legions and traitor primarchs and daemons and renegade marines, and traitor imperial gaurd and Navy AND mechanicus and Titan legions. bummage for the imperium.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

'Dominion of Fire'; Angron and fifty thousand World Eaters slaughtered their way through Imperial space for over two centuries. They took over seventy sectors and only a combined force of four space marine chapters, two titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments were sent on a crusade to retake what they had lost. Ninety percent of what was lost has since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.

face it this man is a beast.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

And that's just angron and his boys. Add to that Mortarion and the death guard, perturabo, with his legion of seige warriors, lorgar and the wordbearers, Magnus and his sons, alpharius/omegon and the many cults they have created,in addition to alpha legion resources, the night lords, and the emperor's children, all of these marines have had 10,000 years to perfect their craft. They would be galvanized and led by the black legion.

Add to that the many regiments of Imperial guard that sided with the warmaster, their fleets, traitor titans, and the dark mechanicus. 
In addition, there are whole chapters of space marine that have turned to chaos since the heresy, and they would add to the fighting forces.


oh, yeah daemons, lots of them. If it took 100 grey nights in a kamikaze attack on angron to merely give him a "time out," how would they stop his rampage when all of the forces of chaos band together and march on terra? as they progress, and they would under Abbadon's leadership, they would generate greater and greater amounts of warp energy, until warpspace and realspace overlap, preventing banishment. 

It is unrealistic to say that the first war on armageddon was any indication of the success of chaos. Chaos will win if they manage to band together long enough.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Key word _if_.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Vaz's posts are deadly we could be here argueing all day


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## MajorChaos (Oct 9, 2008)

With out the Emperor there is nothing, Rise up Childeren of the Imperium and fight back against these foul demons and heretics, If you fall in battle you will live on forever by the Emperor's side. Go my brothers the Emperor is with us FIGHT FOR THE IMPERIUM AND THE SAKE OF HUMANITY!!! CHARGE!

well and what does the chaos say?! i think that is alot better then saying sumthing like blood for the blood god or skulls for the skull throne... that just sucks come on lol!


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## Unknown Soldier (Oct 24, 2008)

Mmm? Which is better? I'd have to say Imperium. Why?

Chaos worshippers always end up covered in boils with horns for eyes and tentacles growing out of their bums and whatnot.

Plus the Blood God Christmas trees are kinda tacky.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Marines have Marneus Calgar. Fluff aside, he'd rape the Traitor Legions mano-et-mano.


Like he did when he was tricked into fighting the alpha legions false leader, which led him to be trapped in the mountains losing gallons of marines in hit-and-run attacks by the so-called 'defeated' alpha legion. Gb2lernings.



Vaz said:


> Seriously though, if the traitor Legions ever made it intact to Terra, which they wouldn't they would find forces assembled that were not there during the Great Crusade and the first siege. A Chapter is a far more efficient force than a Legion. 1000 or so Chapters making their way to defend against the Traitor Legions, with more powerful ships, solely designed to get close and obliterate, compared to the Generic Ships of the Chaos Fleets, which are just glorified Troop Transports.


Still. Twenty thousand chaos marines will trounce one thousand 'regular' marines any day of the week. And we have quite a few more legions than you have chapters. And generic ships of the chaos fleets? Including out gigantic daemonically possessed ships that eat hope and exhale evil? Jigga-what.



Vaz said:


> Then, you have still to get through the Cadian Gate. Even with the full might of Chaos, you couldn't get through. Terra is even more strongly defended now than before. You would slowly bleed yourselves to death, and while it would be a huge blow to the Imperium, you still have supply routes to maintain, which the Imperium has a complete monopoly of. To control them, you have to split your forces. Weakening one or the other.


We've been sending forth small task forces to bother the cadian gate. Honestly we could go on without it, it'd just be a pain in the ass that we'd talk about every meeting.
"And about the cadian gate..."
"Oh do they still have people there? God damnit."
Plus, you've been facing a divided legion and barely succeeding each time. You're already at the peak efficiency level of cohesion, we're just marauding bands of slaughterers. In the proposed hypothetical 'chaos gets it's act together' you'd be nothing more than brushed aside.



Vaz said:


> I agree that while the Hammer of Chaos will hit hard, it can only hit that once - a Legion is too unwieldly to use, while a Chapter can just raid your supplies. Hell, the 13th Company defeated the 6th Grand Company (a difference of perhaps 800-1000+ marines) of the Black Legion. It's not going to be all chaos' way.


Chapters are predictable. Space marines aren't raiders, they're there until the job is done. All those drop pods put you into danger, getting you out is your own job.
Also, each sect of chaos runs it's legion differently. Night lords don't attack en masse, ork style, they're sneakier than that. And, just like now, you'd never see alpha legion coming unless it was apart of the plan.



Vaz said:


> You speak of Alpharius _and_ Omegon. One is dead. The other is a rumour. You spread so many lies, you don't know whether it's true that there are twins. Why did Horus only find the one, then?


They are described to have had many of the champions and troops in the army as body and even face doubles. What the ultrasmurphs defeated was nothing more than some body double blundering about. And it's been proved they are twins...if we can count the horus heresy books as evidence. Are they canon?



Vaz said:


> 7 Primarchs. 2 are dead. We have many who are missing, who await the return of the Emperor. Believed to happen in the Starchild theory, a great sacrifice is needed, in his name. Surely you're not going to try and cause such a thing? Bring the anathema to Chaos back to life, to lead all his forces?


"shooting the cyborg in the head" isn't the same thing as "bring him fully functioning back to life". With the religious dogma surrounding the emperor, once the star child did rise past infancy, or awaken in an adult, he'd never be believed to be the next emperor. He'd simply be burned alive for being heretical enough to call himself emperor.



Vaz said:


> Then, Russ, Jaghatai, Vulkan, and Corax will return, Dorn is lost as well, he will return to aid against Chaos, and particularly to defeat Perturabo. Guilliman is healing. The Ultramarines will not go down without a fight, in the hope that he will return.


Oh good, you'd get a "Let's wolf the wolf out of those wolfing wolfers!" tactician, a "Everybody get on a bike, I've got a plan..." and "I'm going to go emo and mostly be ignored during fluff".
The ultramarines, strong as they are(fluffwise), are still limited in number. They're not in nigh infinite supply like our best troops. They'll simply be overwhelmed.



Vaz said:


> Then, you have your own internicine struggles. Tzeentch hates Nurgle, Slaanesh Hates Khorne, Nurgle hates Tzeentch, Khorne hates everyone. You will end up fighting amongst yourselves (Skalathrax?).


What are you talking about? Chaos does not hate itself anymore, that was all last edition. Now, when talking about chaos marines, chaos gods couldn't care less who's who.



Vaz said:


> Going back to Legions vs. Chapters.
> 
> You have against you 10 Chapters (equal size to your Legion). Each one is different. You have just the same tactics. A Chapter itself as well will be able to fight on its own - you just destroy the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves will not be affected (well, they'll give you a pint, then kill you).


We don't constrict legions to simply ten thousand, that'd be silly. Also, each of your chapters generally distrusts and won't work with each other unless they're all being cut down, in which case they'll all "go to ground" at the same time.



Vaz said:


> You Champions are particularly few and far between. The Imperium has 1000 Chapter Masters. It has a dedicated Daemon Hunting Force. It has more assassins than you an shake a stick at. You're not telling me, that Abaddons Bodyguard is going to be more interested in watching for snipers/Callidus knifes/Exploding Psychopaths/Psychic Nulls frying his head than killing loyalists?


Well technically, abaddons bodyguard has yet to be harmed by any of the eight assassins they sent after them. The only one that died was the golden-masked sorceror, and that was from an eldar farseer.(Last campeign on hydra five...I think).
Our champions are few and far inbetween? What do you base this on?

And all of our chosen can easily take up the mantle as assassins. Probably better than you're expensive, erratic ones that come from an organization that's just as likely to kill you as us.



Vaz said:


> Plus, you're forgetting the reason behind the first assault on Terra. You had Horus. No one has his compulsion, ability as a leader, or empathy, which made him so successful.


He was tricksy, we'll find another one in this hypothetical 'gw lets chaos do something' timeline.



Vaz said:


> Abaddon is a damn good leader, and a powerful fighter, but he's only the Warmaster, because he took the leadership. You fled right after the death of Horus. Why? It was a last ditch attempt to kill Horus to end the war? Your leader dies, you run away?


We mostly left because we were bored of it. We've slain a primarch and, more or less, destroyed the active role the emperor played in your lives. You've done nothing but rot afterward. What else were we going to do at terra? Chaos isn't going to make a lasting base, why would we?



Vaz said:


> And you call loyalists cowards? Next joke.


You are cowards. Prime example, instead of fighting the supposedly 'defeated' alpha legion on the ice planets surface, your primarch hopped into his starship and nuked the surface. Mostly out of fear, I assume. Or maybe he was late in getting to go get killed by Fulgrim...I can never tell these days...




Emperor'sChild88 said:


> I dont think the chaos gods will ever pay attention:fuck:


They will when the next codex comes out as is customary. We get a toned down one(3rd) than a big one(3.5) and than a toned down one (4th) so keep up your jibbajabba foo. Chaos is a'comin'!

Or. Failing that. Just you wait til we all quit and play another game with evil space men! We'll show you then!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you're so powerful, and all you desire is the Emperors Death, why haven't Chaos attacked the Imperium?

You sound like Polish builders; only do half a job.

1 - Gb2lerningsurself - Marneus Calgar didn't fight the false leader of the Alpha Legion.

2 - Of course 20,000 Chaos Marines will walk over 1,000 Space Marines. But 20,000 Chaos Marines have only the same tactics, different for each legion, yes, but each legion has only the same tactics. 20,000 Space Marines = 20 Different chapters, each of which is a specialist in a different style (as opposed to pick up an axe, scream, and run forwards, or pick up a boltgun, and march forward, ignoring being shot). Did you forget what happened on Terra? THe White Scars attack on the Space Port - the Traitors were not ready, and had nothing to counter their attack, because they were at the gates. Bit Pointless really, having a few things there to ward off the attack. And Daemonnically possessed ships? Didn't help Planet Killer.

3 - Space Marines are raiders. Or are you so focused on your original role of Blitzkrieg that you have no idea over what Space Marines are now? We no longer Spearhead attacks, they go for important areas which will either aid the main overall battle, or to remove strongpoints.

4 - No Horus Heresy Books aren't canon. Just one of the more 'factual' representations. Each one has a different writer as well. Hardly canon, until Games Workshop realeases it's own book about it. And while it may be well known that there were body doubles, how come Alpharius has never come back? Surely it would be worse for the Imperium to see that bugger back? And I don't see how the Emperor managed throughout all those years of Gene Therapy for his mutant sons, failed to notice that he had twins.

5 - Since when was a "nigh infinite supply" limited to about 100,000? Fabius Bile, and the Iron Warriors are steadily recruiting again. Means that they don't have the same experience. 

6 - The Emperor needed a physical vessel to be borne into. He already has his physical body, and his soul. They are seperated, and the sacrifice from those dying in his name is more likely to bring the two back together than 'leaving him to rot'. It's why the Thorians believe the Star Child theory is 'he will walk again', instead of the Inquisitors taking this great scarifice to be the Emperors death. This great sacrifice must be done in his name. With 1,000,000 Marines laying down their lives all over the Imperium, I'm sure that's going to have some effect, no?

7 - Yes, because having a Primarch who ran away from the 'barking mad wolfmen', is good, isn't it? I'm sure Russ would be rather pissed about finding Magnus. Being in the warp all that time will only have enhanced his resistance to its powers, and he has been fighting solidly, whereas the others cosied up at home on their new planets. My votes on the returned loyalists for that one. Also, the Space Marines, Ultras in particular are seen as the ultimate hero's of humanity. What they stand for is more powerful in the eyes of guardsmen than for each Marine on their own.

8 - Chaos does fight among itself. Why doesn't Angron have Psychic powers? Surely if the Chaos gods didn't fight amongst themselves, they would help each other. I know about the worship of different gods, etc, but none of that equates to why each champion of the god isn't aided by the others. Just think how powerful Angron would be - tougher with Nurgles blessing, causing plague with every breath, wielding magics with an ability that is natural, and dancing past enemies guards. I'm sure that 'measly' Grey Knights company wouldn't have done much good if they were all behind the champions of chaos, as you say.

9 - Yes, fair do's, you have the inner circle of Abaddons retinue - Ygethmor the Deceiever was killed by a Space Marine CAPTAIN, Sicarius on Medusa V. Some master champion of Chaos, killed by a single Captain. Not looking good. Oh - and it's not as though the Assassins just get bored, and run through Terra, killing people on the street. It's for those who show signs of Chaos.

10 - Horus was tricksy? Paragon of everything Chaos, His chosen son, best opportunity to destroy the Imperium of Man, and you failed. You won't, and categorically, I say _won't_ find another one. Angron leading the assembled forces of chaos? I don't think so. Abaddon? I didn't see the Daemon Primarchs following him. He's a good leader, I've stated that, but they see him for what he is - A jumped up captain with big ideas.

11 - You slew a Primarch, ended the Emperors physical effect on our lives? Had you forgotten that the Emperor had already retired to the Golden Throne, and would power the Astronomicon, at least until Magnus returned, then he would retire as Emperor, presidign only over the council. It wasn't as though he would drop pod into a warzone any more. You had the Imperium on the very edge of destruction - it was all there for you to take - and you left because you were _bored_? Bull. Shit. You were broke. The Emperor sacrificed everything he had for what was right and just, and despite his death, we still won.

12 - Prime Example of cowardice - hiding behind body doubles. You said it yourself, earlier in the post.

13 - Typical Chaos. Lose a fight, and run away. Sour Grapes, mate. Sour Grapes.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> ferrus manus show me some examples of how the imperium has so greatly whooped chaos' ass. until then the argument of "im better than you so there" is not going to work. provide concrete examples


k the Imperium didnt kick chaos's ass "greatly" all the time.

I mean Imperium has forced chaos into a little part of the Galaxy (eye of terror), it fought off the Horus Heresy even though Horus attacked in suprise, sent most loyal primarchs to the corners of the galaxy, and had 6 legions against 3 at the siege of Terra.

also Black Crusades havent succeded that alot, the whole of chaos is being held back by men in leather armour (IMperial guard at Cadia!!). the Imperium is withstanding the chaos attacks.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Vaz your posts rock.

The idea of chaos making it's way back to Terra for some grand final battle for the souls of all humanity is a big stretch as the game has changed in the 10k years from the heresy. Considering all the new aspects that they have to deal with in addition to FIGHTING the full way there I doubt they'd make it in any shape to take get past Saturn much less take Terra.

Horus made it by means of his surprise on the loyal forces. Currently the imperium EXPECTS Chaos to make a run towards Terra, which will be a gauntlet. 10k years is plenty of time to build up defences to, if not stop them cold, whittle them down until they are destroyed.

On top of that you now have the necrons, and nids that will undoubtably be in the way of that expansion by Chaos. Factor in the Eldar will most likly be making percision strikes on Chaos forces and it seems like its an uphill fight the whole way to Terra for Abbadon and his forces.

The truest reason that Chaos would not be able to take Terra, is they lack the will and conviction. They have no drive to see it through to the end or the cadian gate would have fallen all ready. They have their Primarchs yet none will step up to lead their forces. When Horus fell only Abbadon stuck around, the rest of Chaos fled to the eye of terror. Should Abbadon, or any leader of that matter, fall Chaos shall fall with them.

As for who's better? they both suck. both sides have lost their way.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> k the Imperium didnt kick chaos's ass "greatly" all the time.
> 
> I mean Imperium has forced chaos into a little part of the Galaxy (eye of terror), it fought off the Horus Heresy even though Horus attacked in suprise, sent most loyal primarchs to the corners of the galaxy, and had 6 legions against 3 at the siege of Terra.
> 
> ...


do you have any idea how many times that has been posted? that point is irrelevant.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Vaz said:


> If you're so powerful, and all you desire is the Emperors Death, why haven't Chaos attacked the Imperium?


We don't desire just the Emperors death, why would we just want to get rid of the most rotten apple in a garden? We need to remove the stain of everything. Besides, we've been loosely attacking, I've hardly seen the Imperium sending us anywhere we don't want to go.



Vaz said:


> You sound like Polish builders; only do half a job.


So that'd make you a mexican builder? Poor grasp of tactics and thinking things out?



Vaz said:


> 1 - Gb2lerningsurself - Marneus Calgar didn't fight the false leader of the Alpha Legion.


My point being your tactics *have not* changed since than, and marneus is a weak copy of an already inferior design of primarch. You said he'd single handedly destroy us all in a one-on-one fight, and that's simply not true. We've seen the projected outcome of a protracted battle between your chapter and my legion. You lost miserably.



Vaz said:


> 2 - Of course 20,000 Chaos Marines will walk over 1,000 Space Marines. But 20,000 Chaos Marines have only the same tactics, different for each legion, yes, but each legion has only the same tactics. 20,000 Space Marines = 20 Different chapters, each of which is a specialist in a different style (as opposed to pick up an axe, scream, and run forwards, or pick up a boltgun, and march forward, ignoring being shot). Did you forget what happened on Terra? THe White Scars attack on the Space Port - the Traitors were not ready, and had nothing to counter their attack, because they were at the gates. Bit Pointless really, having a few things there to ward off the attack. And Daemonnically possessed ships? Didn't help Planet Killer.


You seem to think we're all berserkers or death guard...do you even read chaos fluff or am I wasting my time explaining how we work?
And terra was never meant to be a conquest, it was an assassination run. An assassination run that worked. What the white scars did was equivalent toward slapping the hand after it had already been in the cookie jar.



Vaz said:


> 3 - Space Marines are raiders. Or are you so focused on your original role of Blitzkrieg that you have no idea over what Space Marines are now? We no longer Spearhead attacks, they go for important areas which will either aid the main overall battle, or to remove strongpoints.


Since when were you dark eldar?



Vaz said:


> 4 - No Horus Heresy Books aren't canon. Just one of the more 'factual' representations. Each one has a different writer as well. Hardly canon, until Games Workshop realeases it's own book about it. And while it may be well known that there were body doubles, how come Alpharius has never come back? Surely it would be worse for the Imperium to see that bugger back? And I don't see how the Emperor managed throughout all those years of Gene Therapy for his mutant sons, failed to notice that he had twins.


Why have none of the other primarchs surfaced besides the one insane enough to do so(angron)? Because they're smart enough to stay hidden. Alpharius is a highly valued peice, and so far his indirect interventions have been enough to win us the important battles. What would be better than showing off our fancy alive primarchs when it matters, not just when it's convient or dramatic.

And technically with his ever-watching eye, the children were still scattered. He's not good at his job.

And Alpharius having body doubles is only natural, it's how the legion works.



Vaz said:


> 5 - Since when was a "nigh infinite supply" limited to about 100,000? Fabius Bile, and the Iron Warriors are steadily recruiting again. Means that they don't have the same experience.


I see you read the ultramarines book about the iron warriors. Does that count as canon?



Vaz said:


> 6 - The Emperor needed a physical vessel to be borne into. He already has his physical body, and his soul. They are seperated, and the sacrifice from those dying in his name is more likely to bring the two back together than 'leaving him to rot'. It's why the Thorians believe the Star Child theory is 'he will walk again', instead of the Inquisitors taking this great scarifice to be the Emperors death. This great sacrifice must be done in his name. With 1,000,000 Marines laying down their lives all over the Imperium, I'm sure that's going to have some effect, no?


The theory was him needing to die and having another one become the star child(through possession or being a new vessel) and while marines are quite good at laying down their lives, that's hardly going to open the safe that holds the star childs power that is a living corpse. They're just dying for no reason...being the raiders they are, you know.



Vaz said:


> 7 - Yes, because having a Primarch who ran away from the 'barking mad wolfmen', is good, isn't it? I'm sure Russ would be rather pissed about finding Magnus. Being in the warp all that time will only have enhanced his resistance to its powers, and he has been fighting solidly, whereas the others cosied up at home on their new planets. My votes on the returned loyalists for that one. Also, the Space Marines, Ultras in particular are seen as the ultimate hero's of humanity. What they stand for is more powerful in the eyes of guardsmen than for each Marine on their own.


It's sad really, if you didn't have that idiot of a bigot, you'd still have one of the best psykers in the universe working for you. But hey, having a slobbering legion of drunken hobos works too.
Ultras only recently surfaced as "the bestest and the superest" by GW, before this codex they were just "The most played". And I'm sure the ultrasmurfs legacy has kept those guardsmen in line. You know, except for those we show the truth to. Because your one thousand ultras can't be everywhere at once.

As for the Russ/Magnus debate, what makes you think the wolves would win? Thousand son marines -slaughter- meqs. It's what they were born and dusted to do.



Vaz said:


> 8 - Chaos does fight among itself. Why doesn't Angron have Psychic powers? Surely if the Chaos gods didn't fight amongst themselves, they would help each other. I know about the worship of different gods, etc, but none of that equates to why each champion of the god isn't aided by the others. Just think how powerful Angron would be - tougher with Nurgles blessing, causing plague with every breath, wielding magics with an ability that is natural, and dancing past enemies guards. I'm sure that 'measly' Grey Knights company wouldn't have done much good if they were all behind the champions of chaos, as you say.


I'm sure tzeentch doesn't mind giving Angron an invulnerable save worthy of a chaos primarch, but honestly what would Angron do with spells? He's hardly of sound mind enough to focus and manifest them, he's better off devouring entire companies of grey knights, while severly weakened.
And each champion is beneath the notice of each chaos god(besides abaddon), it'd be a waste of resources to have each champion be an amazing fighter, extremely tough, fantastically fast, and wondrously invulnerable. They just don't need all that power on a creature that can still be lost in a warpstorm.
Besides, again, if we went around overcompensating like ultramarines, we'd spread ourselves too thin and be easily swept aside...like ultramarines.
And the grey knights attacked an ailing demon primarch that managed to kill them to a man. While they only made a minor inconvience for him. Way to go.



Vaz said:


> 9 - Yes, fair do's, you have the inner circle of Abaddons retinue - Ygethmor the Deceiever was killed by a Space Marine CAPTAIN, Sicarius on Medusa V. Some master champion of Chaos, killed by a single Captain. Not looking good. Oh - and it's not as though the Assassins just get bored, and run through Terra, killing people on the street. It's for those who show signs of Chaos.


He was slain by an eldar witch. You seem confused...but no matter, if I made up stories too, I too could falsely be proved victorious in arguments.
Here, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ygethmor, the page on wikipedia was recently deleted. Although surely I hope the bigotry that consumes you lessens.
And in case this one 'evaporates':
"Ygethmor is believed to have been slain on Medusa V before its destruction by the Eldar Autarch Elarique Swiftblade of Alaitoc. Elarique cut through hundreds of lackeys to finally kill Ygethmor by removing his head, armed only with her ancestral power sword. She was killed almost instantly by Ygethmor's men, although her actions have no doubt saved countless lives. "



Vaz said:


> 10 - Horus was tricksy? Paragon of everything Chaos, His chosen son, best opportunity to destroy the Imperium of Man, and you failed. You won't, and categorically, I say _won't_ find another one. Angron leading the assembled forces of chaos? I don't think so. Abaddon? I didn't see the Daemon Primarchs following him. He's a good leader, I've stated that, but they see him for what he is - A jumped up captain with big ideas.


Oh I never suggested Abaddon as leader. The man is a pathetic, dirtied-up mirror of Horus. No, we've something better in the works. And if that plan falls through, well, we'll eventually take the gate, or ignore it and retake worlds. Your vast control is slipping with each day, and your measly one million marines can't be everywhere at once. 
We can.



Vaz said:


> 11 - You slew a Primarch, ended the Emperors physical effect on our lives? Had you forgotten that the Emperor had already retired to the Golden Throne, and would power the Astronomicon, at least until Magnus returned, then he would retire as Emperor, presidign only over the council. It wasn't as though he would drop pod into a warzone any more. You had the Imperium on the very edge of destruction - it was all there for you to take - and you left because you were _bored_? Bull. Shit. You were broke. The Emperor sacrificed everything he had for what was right and just, and despite his death, we still won.


Oh, how could I have forgotten our ultimate gift to you? We gave you a permanent crutch for the rest of your existance, if the emperor dies(the whole way) your wonderful network of communication will die with him. As will the imperium. We've already worked ways around using him to send messages, and our travel is completely without his aid.
Ah and Magnus will take over for him hmm? Oh thank goodness we didn't let slobbering berserkers force him to turn against that which he loved. Oh. Oh wait. Yeah we did.

And just think, all we have to do is put a single bolt rocket into a dying old man for us to forever win this war. All you'd have to do is kill every last warpspawned daemon and hateful chaos marine. Hm. Yes, we lost that one.



Vaz said:


> 12 - Prime Example of cowardice - hiding behind body doubles. You said it yourself, earlier in the post.


Whomever said he hid behind the body doubles? He'd show up at random in front of them. See, still thinking two steps behind blueboy.



Vaz said:


> 13 - Typical Chaos. Lose a fight, and run away. Sour Grapes, mate. Sour Grapes.


It's alright. Some day you'll learn to cite facts and win arguments. Until than, enjoy your lies in blue and gold.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

wow VAZ you really must be in love with the smurfs, they aint all that great, they lost a lot of wars, not all battles are victories you know.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

damn you lord waffles! you beat me to the punch! well executed my friend! 
but before i hit the hay id like to say something about Alpharius and Omegon. they kicked the ultramarines' ass and your blue boys knew it. they had to somehow make it seem like they did something, kill alpharius maybe? hey sounds like a good idea, our primarch ended up killing their first captain thinking it was their primarch only to be pushed back and and raped the whole way home. we'll say we killed alpharius so we can save face.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

Chaos IS better,coz theres no "Ive worked out how a light bulb works!" then being carted of to the fiering squad.but cypher the fallen angel is right, if the emperor dies it would be better as he would(...should...)(...could...)be re born & then go woopass on the high lords


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## sopmod (Oct 9, 2008)

yes the imperum is doomed cos it's clopassing everwhere and even if we are defeated. Your boaders will be overrun as every poor sod in your empire has bugggered off to fight us. Then the Tau or the Eldar will take the glazy u go ahh the tau are invading Earth so. Flee back you both get crippled but one side eventually wins with like one guy left. then we strike and simply finish off whose left.

But you might say the Cadian Gate holds. No it dosen't only Cadia is left standing "Chaos streams form the gate spilling into poorly defended systems where the defenders have been drawn off to defent CADIA." thats what GW say.

Then you go "but the Codouse will sav the emperor," So there's what 10k of them?? they can't leave the Emperor's side. WELL imperial scum there's a little thing called sustained oprbital bombardment which will make you persious Emp go boom.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

sigh my brethren (Lucius and Sopmod), atleast edit out your typos so you can be taken seriously


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

The bottom line is the Imperium rocks, but doesn't rock EVERYONE. If there was a BEST race i'm sure it would dominate by now but the point is the players to decide in a game thats the point of the game.


And no damn reason to be dissing races or cultures this isthe example of people taking the game serious like WHY ARE ALL SPACE MARINES WHITE.

damn people.

And also to make a legitamate post I beleive it requires the right or atleast average grammar skills.

What the hell is collpssaing?


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Ok two things the Eye of Terror is the only place chaos can freely travel to the Imperium if they had more they would completely obliterate them another thing if the chaos gods stopped fighting each other nothing could stand in their way the combined forces would be to much for even the Imperium to withstand all those daemons and csm would be unstoppable =].


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Sopmod and Lucifer - Speak in English, and I'll be able to make sense of what you say. I'm guessing it's not really worth making a relevant argument to.

Black Apostle - I find it hard to see why Alpharius doesn't pop up, do Jazz Hands, and say "surprise!" Surely going to hurt morale far more than thinking him dead. And Omegon? If he's real, why doesn't he come forwards? Take the role of Primarch?

Wait, oh yes. There's no proof there's two primarchs, just the Alpha Legion says-so. Taken as the gospel, yes?

Exitus - to be fair, I'm not too loved up on the smurfs. Too boring. But canon states they were the most powerful Legion with Guillimans tactics and strategy. Surely a Chapter following religiously to his rules is going to have as much power on a relative scale. 

Still, while on the point of not every battle is a victory - Alpharius was slain. The Alpha Legion itself had some personality complex, and couldn't face being last. Yes, he had the beatdown put on him BigBlue, something I think was wrong. (While I don't believe the ends always justify the means, just because it's not honourable to sneaky sneaky, and cause uprisings while sitting back and having a chuckle, does not mean it has no place in the Order of battle. Hell, I'm in the Marines. Not much dishonourable about that - but I still run around with paint on my face wearing camo.) But it still doesn't state why the secrecy. Much of the workings of the Space Marines were kept hidden from the populace (no freedom of information acts in the 31st Millenium), so it wasn't as though the secrecy was all that important. You didn't know who your commanders are, or who the people in your unit really were - lack of trust = lack of team work = loss of battles.

And waffles - not really going to go Point for Point. You just keep stating the same things over and over. Like 2+2 = 5. I say it =4. You go, but no, if you do this magical thingy, you can get 5. I just keep stating 2+2=4.

Why get rid of the rotten apple, which comes from the rotten tree, in the rotten orchard? Why not get rid of the rotten orchard? Your arm got tired after throwing the rotten apple over the wall?

A poor grasp of tactics? You mean having butter spread to thinly to have an even spread of resourses to cover a wide area, in case of an attack, which will only hit one point in the wall. Great thinking there. Just because it takes the time to coordinate attacks and forces after the initial attacks, you take that as poor tactics? 

Think of the 13th Black Crusade. Imperial forces had a large concentration of their forces at Cadia, but the majority of their Navy was fighting against small Wolf Packs squadrons. Then at the start, as your vanguard came through, you were soundly beaten, then as more and more of your troops came through, and it was apparent that this was the attack beginning, more fleets and support from other sectors, and despite the initial headway made in the 2-4 weeks you made, you slowed down as more forces got put into the meatgrinder from both sides. 

The side attacks by Typhus and such were hardly greater grasp of tactics as more like lack of control saw blood hungry commanders going after their own targets, instead of a greater plan. That's lack of tactics.

If your assassination attempt worked, how come you weren't clever enough to ensure against unneccessary losses? How come the belief of the Emperor still carries on through 5 segmentums, with whole wars fought in his name? Hell, you just kicked the animal in the cage, now it's pissed, and will fight harder and harder. The more times you kick it, the more the cage gets weakened. After each attack, the Imperium has more faith. 14 times and more, the attacks have come. 14 times and more they have been defeated. You can't say that morale is low, or that you have won. If you've won, what are you still fighting for? It's not pacification.

Marines aren't raiders. They fight in His name. They die in his name. The shamans at first died in His name. There was no physical presence for the Emperors soul to be born into. However, the soul is there, and the physical presence is there; they are just seperated. The sacrifice is enough to bring him together.

And I'm sure that the Emperor being reborn would be able to prove his rebirth. How did he get everyone to agree to follow him at first? I can't see someone rising up now(2008AD) saying that they're the Emperor, and will lead us into the stars, and has these 20 supersons with him. I'd tell him to fuck right off. 

And Russ vs Magnus - if TSons 'slaughter' MEQ's, why did they all run away when drunken hobos (who funnily enough have a home, instead of claiming squatters rights on a daemon world) came and attacked them?

And your severely weakened daemon primarch slaughtered 7, maybe 8 grey knights. Entire companies my arse.

This something else in the works has got to be far better than Horus. Apparently, Horus was scared of getting a kick up the arse, and getting gang raped by the Ultramarines, who were under strength thanks to speedbumping by the Alpha Legion, and the Blood Angels, teh Imperial Fists, and the Custodes. So he opens his ship up to attack by Teleport. Strange thing to do, when you need something to do, you go on the defensive. Maybe my training is wrong, but if I need to attack a strongpointed room, I don't sit in the field and wait for them to come out.

What you have all just written just somes up the fact that you weren't content with what you already had, and just wanted 'more'. Sellouts, traitors, and ultimately, you are only encouraging your own destruction. Your 'eternal life' is infested with daemons who have more say, and you gradually turn into them, instead of living eternal livesas yourselfs, you're watching a movie of something else living your eternal life.

So all I see is someone who is too insecure, and feels they must always lie. Then I see a load of people who think they have a right to do something more than what they already have - hell, you had fighting, you had it all), but because one person was too weak and fell to Bribery, it just seperated the men from the boys.

And for 10,000 years living (which is hard to tell - considering time flows differently in the Warp), you don't seem to be much better for it. After all, it only takes that Battlecannon the same accuracy and to aim for Black instead of Blue, and your Chaos marine is still finished.


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## captain Veros (Oct 25, 2008)

people keep mentioning the heresy,and yet the only reason the imperium won was due to horus' error in lowering the shields on his battle barge allowing the emperor get on board and kill horus 

I personally think chaos could could win:so_happy:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes - the 'only' reason we won was because your 'all powerful, all conquering' hero decided to lower the Shielding, when he knew full well the Emperor would attack. Just a shame then that Horus was too weak to kill the Emperor, yeah?


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## death man 123 (Oct 25, 2008)

MajorChaos said:


> I think that chaos are not better then the Imperals I think there better but my friend Shane thinks so he is a hard core chaos fan and me and my other friends cast him out and tell him that chaos suck lol, But to my point... Is Chaos Better then the Imperals i just want ppls input about this...


imperials rule!:victory: chaos suck (they make me feel sick)uke:


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

death man 123 said:


> imperials rule!:victory: chaos suck (they make me feel sick)uke:


oh go die :laugh:


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

You go die, Imperials are the best:headbutt:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Sopmod and Lucifer - Speak in English, and I'll be able to make sense of what you say. I'm guessing it's not really worth making a relevant argument to.


Picking on the younger, more inexperienced members of chaos? I can't say I'm impressed. Honestly, I could look like I win arguments too if I chose your buddies to turn aside.



Vaz said:


> Black Apostle - I find it hard to see why Alpharius doesn't pop up, do Jazz Hands, and say "surprise!" Surely going to hurt morale far more than thinking him dead. And Omegon? If he's real, why doesn't he come forwards? Take the role of Primarch?


Again, read the fluff. It makes far more tactical sense to wield power through subtlety and deceit, not just shove our best weapon at every minor incursion.
You marines, always with your 'open the door with our face' technique...



Vaz said:


> Wait, oh yes. There's no proof there's two primarchs, just the Alpha Legion says-so. Taken as the gospel, yes?


And this is why the imperium will fall. Obvious facts and information that would have saved you is turned aside as "HERESY"!



Vaz said:


> Still, while on the point of not every battle is a victory - Alpharius was slain. The Alpha Legion itself had some personality complex, and couldn't face being last. Yes, he had the beatdown put on him BigBlue, something I think was wrong.


Let's break this rant into sections since you seem to have lost paragraphs.
Now, I've explained time and again Alpharius is alive, I'm trying very hard to give you marines a sporting chance but you turn aside information that you don't like as a falsehood.



Vaz said:


> (While I don't believe the ends always justify the means, just because it's not honourable to sneaky sneaky, and cause uprisings while sitting back and having a chuckle, does not mean it has no place in the Order of battle.


Subtlety. I'm glad to see you thinking outside the box.



Vaz said:


> Hell, I'm in the Marines. Not much dishonourable about that - but I still run around with paint on my face wearing camo.) But it still doesn't state why the secrecy. Much of the workings of the Space Marines were kept hidden from the populace (no freedom of information acts in the 31st Millenium), so it wasn't as though the secrecy was all that important.


This has little relevance toward the current discussion, unless this goes roundabout. Usually before space marines are deployed, the populace is USUALLY noted toward it, unless the space marines believe there is good reason to keep it a secret.



Vaz said:


> You didn't know who your commanders are, or who the people in your unit really were - lack of trust = lack of team work = loss of battles.


We know who's wearing the big hat. We don't have any lowest common denominators in our legion...also the people in our unit are either the trusted allies we were inducted with, or people smart enough to impersonate them flawlessly. The alpha legion trusts itself flawlessly, but is not above questioning reasonable suspicions.



Vaz said:


> And waffles - not really going to go Point for Point. You just keep stating the same things over and over. Like 2+2 = 5. I say it =4. You go, but no, if you do this magical thingy, you can get 5. I just keep stating 2+2=4.


You're not going point for point with me because you like to rant. If we went point for point, I'd inevitably have better resources, reasoning, and arguments because every point I make I defend. You'd rather act like a gigantic pelican, take a crap, and fly off.



Vaz said:


> Why get rid of the rotten apple, which comes from the rotten tree, in the rotten orchard? Why not get rid of the rotten orchard? Your arm got tired after throwing the rotten apple over the wall?


Because the orchard itself is not rotten in of itself. It's a very prosperous, healthy tree with many crunchy, delicious apples ripe for the picking. We just don't want to sully our boots stepping on rotten fruit. 

And in case this analogy missed you again, by fruit, I mean "populace of the imperium" and by "sully our boots stepping on rotten fruit" I mean losing a handful of our forces to your dying resistance.



Vaz said:


> A poor grasp of tactics? You mean having butter spread to thinly to have an even spread of resourses to cover a wide area, in case of an attack, which will only hit one point in the wall. Great thinking there. Just because it takes the time to coordinate attacks and forces after the initial attacks, you take that as poor tactics?


Have you ever had a piece of toast, rocky, craggy, toast, when you simply never have enough butter to cover each area equally? You couldn't possibly keep every single world safe if we striked simultaneously. All that would happen is the pockets of resistance would melt away.



Vaz said:


> Think of the 13th Black Crusade. Imperial forces had a large concentration of their forces at Cadia, but the majority of their Navy was fighting against small Wolf Packs squadrons. Then at the start, as your vanguard came through, you were soundly beaten, then as more and more of your troops came through, and it was apparent that this was the attack beginning, more fleets and support from other sectors, and despite the initial headway made in the 2-4 weeks you made, you slowed down as more forces got put into the meatgrinder from both sides.


Sadly, you missed the entire point of the exchange. Re-read my previous post about the whole "Hey, we squashed your god."



Vaz said:


> The side attacks by Typhus and such were hardly greater grasp of tactics as more like lack of control saw blood hungry commanders going after their own targets, instead of a greater plan. That's lack of tactics.


Oh hardly. We let our brethren do what they were crafted to excel at. Typhus saw you bothered enough that you had to withdraw enough forces for us to break through to the emporer...which was the sole reason you were defending terra.
But hey, it's a pretty nice rock.



Vaz said:


> If your assassination attempt worked, how come you weren't clever enough to ensure against unneccessary losses? How come the belief of the Emperor still carries on through 5 segmentums, with whole wars fought in his name? Hell, you just kicked the animal in the cage, now it's pissed, and will fight harder and harder. The more times you kick it, the more the cage gets weakened. After each attack, the Imperium has more faith. 14 times and more, the attacks have come. 14 times and more they have been defeated. You can't say that morale is low, or that you have won. If you've won, what are you still fighting for? It's not pacification.


Why would we care about such needless losses? Each death we suffered only strengthened the legion. We needed a large battle to root out those that weren't neccesary towards the big plan. Oh, you have a belief in a dead man in a chair. How cute.
We have gods. Real ones. Active ones. Gods that even the most pissed off animal can't destroy.
Once again, you've missed the point. Even if every chapter you've ever created jumped out of tera and into the eye of terror, you'd do nothing but abandon a large sector of the galaxy that we'd easily take. Than you'd lose everything that went into the eye of terror. We've forced you to stay on the defensive for over ten THOUSAND years and their's not a damn thing you rabid animals can do besides seeth and wait for the coming darkness. 
Marines have homeworlds and allegiances. Chaos has itself.



Vaz said:


> Marines aren't raiders. They fight in His name. They die in his name. The shamans at first died in His name. There was no physical presence for the Emperors soul to be born into. However, the soul is there, and the physical presence is there; they are just seperated. The sacrifice is enough to bring him together.


You...you just said they were raiders! HERESY!



Vaz said:


> And I'm sure that the Emperor being reborn would be able to prove his rebirth. How did he get everyone to agree to follow him at first? I can't see someone rising up now(2008AD) saying that they're the Emperor, and will lead us into the stars, and has these 20 supersons with him. I'd tell him to fuck right off.


He would try, but just like this argument, your dogmatic, brainwashed imperium would do nothing but turn aside his truths, and he'd see what a waste humanity had become.



Vaz said:


> And Russ vs Magnus - if TSons 'slaughter' MEQ's, why did they all run away when drunken hobos (who funnily enough have a home, instead of claiming squatters rights on a daemon world) came and attacked them?


Perhaps you misunderstood...or merely you didn't read through the story.
Russ attacked a scholarly world of teachers and philosophers.
Nowadays since Russ shoved an otherwise peaceful legion into the eye, they've become a much colder, heartless force. The whole "Rubrick of ahriman" thing happened.
You know, the whole part that makes them 'slaughter' meqs.



Vaz said:


> And your severely weakened daemon primarch slaughtered 7, maybe 8 grey knights. Entire companies my arse.


If you didn't read the response, you won't learn anything.



Vaz said:


> This something else in the works has got to be far better than Horus. Apparently, Horus was scared of getting a kick up the arse, and getting gang raped by the Ultramarines, who were under strength thanks to speedbumping by the Alpha Legion, and the Blood Angels, teh Imperial Fists, and the Custodes. So he opens his ship up to attack by Teleport. Strange thing to do, when you need something to do, you go on the defensive. Maybe my training is wrong, but if I need to attack a strongpointed room, I don't sit in the field and wait for them to come out.


Hence why we're designing something *better* than horus. Horus had the one weakness we never really planned on. He still had his humanity, we'll take that out in the next one.



Vaz said:


> What you have all just written just somes up the fact that you weren't content with what you already had, and just wanted 'more'. Sellouts, traitors, and ultimately, you are only encouraging your own destruction. Your 'eternal life' is infested with daemons who have more say, and you gradually turn into them, instead of living eternal livesas yourselfs, you're watching a movie of something else living your eternal life.


If only you knew what you were missing...



Vaz said:


> So all I see is someone who is too insecure, and feels they must always lie. Then I see a load of people who think they have a right to do something more than what they already have - hell, you had fighting, you had it all), but because one person was too weak and fell to Bribery, it just seperated the men from the boys.


We embraced what we wanted, and we were strong enough to take it. Seperating the men from the boys indeed. Men go their own way. Boys listen to their father.



Vaz said:


> And for 10,000 years living (which is hard to tell - considering time flows differently in the Warp), you don't seem to be much better for it. After all, it only takes that Battlecannon the same accuracy and to aim for Black instead of Blue, and your Chaos marine is still finished.


Howso? We've at least a 33% chance to avoid any and all incoming harm if we but erect a stake with a symbol of the all-knower tzeentch atop it. What do you have for serving your emperor besides the contempt of the entire galaxy and the hatred of the people you seek to enslave?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i think if there was a ebay system in 40k, it will be better. like the Emperor vs Abaddon, both bidding for Horus's weapon, or Lucius lipstick. that kind of stuff


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Dude Vaz, you cannot disregard canon HH books and just pick what you choose as right and ignore the rest. even though you claim that Ultra Prim Guilliman was a tactical genius he was still not able to completely stave off and destroy chaos forces now could he? then he is not as smart as he thought. You claim of a Daemon Primarch being defeated, yes but banished for a hundred years.....but what about Dorn, he was slain aboard a ship while he led the boarding party, and he and his retinue was "SLAUGHTERED" and the Imps barely made it out with only his hands...oh yea how tough are your primarchs ay? And I am sure there was no Primarch aboard that ship he was slaughtered by Chaos Marines, unless you can prove otherwise. Gulliman the genius general as you claim led an unorthodox assault on the Alpha which obviously went against the comically written tactic book called the Codex Astartes(More like Codex Get your ass handed) how can he commit such a treasonous act and get away with it? Oh yea he never really cared did he now. The weakness of his splitting of the legions was finely potrayed in teh Iron Cage Debacle, Dorn lost well over 600 Space Marines, 60% of his fighting force to a lose of only a few Iron warriors, only a fool*(Dorn) commanded by and Idiot*(Guilliman) would do that. Plus what is up with firing at your own cause Dorn refused to split his Legion, which was the sound thing to do.

Lord Waffles has my complete and utter support, imperials arent that great you have made it the hellhole it is, worshipping a know nothing Emperor who hasnt heard of the Chaos Theory(pun intended). I mean he couldn't even figure out that Necrons existed or that his son would turn against him, he suppressed those who intelligently questioned him and he shunned who worshipped him, he is the biggest irony in the galaxy. The one you should get rid of and join the true rule under the four Gods.


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Wow Exitus I don't believe any else has said it in a better way =] :drinks:


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

What I don't understand is if chaos is so allmighty and unbeatable, then why don't they just go ahead and destroy the Imperium? I mean they do have active Gods that are so badass that they have the power to crush Terra, right? Then why don't they?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Emperor'sChild88 said:


> You go die, Imperials are the best:headbutt:


well all the post did was serve to tell how noob imperium people are. :biggrin:


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## Emperor'sChild88 (Oct 7, 2008)

Noobs? The Imperium people are deff not noobs,
but chaos people are worse than noobs....its their goal to be a noob one day :taunt:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Emperor'sChild88 said:


> What I don't understand is if chaos is so allmighty and unbeatable, then why don't they just go ahead and destroy the Imperium? I mean they do have active Gods that are so badass that they have the power to crush Terra, right? Then why don't they?


Why the hell do you think mate? It is because it is tactical unfeasible and militarily impossible, not everyone is a raving mad fanatic of a moron within the Chaos Legions, they wait and plot the best way to destroy a strong opponent.
First the Cadian Gate will be captured, which is already happening, important naval bases crushed, ala Cyper Mundi and such then a massive attack on the other defensive hubs around the sectors near the Eye, then they withdraw back, this will lead the Imps to recapture the worlds which are overrun by cultists or more innumerable Daemons left behind, all togethr alot of man power has been spent by the Imperium to recapture the space, to fill in the gaps they ship in troops from other areas, further destroying the crumbling structure of the imperium from within, more orks rampaging through the undefended and undermanned sectors, tyranids start popping into the Imperium again, relentless raids from the Maelstrom and slowly the imperium will die. Does that sound tactical and plausible? Yes so there. hen and only then will we hit terra


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Emperor'sChild88 said:


> Noobs? The Imperium people are deff not noobs,
> but chaos people are worse than noobs....its their goal to be a noob one day :taunt:


really? comon mate? really?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Exitus_10 you're ignoring some of the information in the HH novels as well. 2nd book in the flashback while Horus is "healing" he is shown the emperors room while the primarchs are being created. The emperor says Horus will betray him. Theres also the fact that Horus tells Loken that the Emperor told him of Chaos after a demon took over one of Lokens men.

Then again if a chaos argument is nullified will Lord Waffles say its all an Alpha Legion plan?


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> really? comon mate? really?


We're not the ones that left to get more power cause we suck ass and look now with more demon powers it's still first to pull the trigger first to win.

That's the reason why you aren't rampaging morons that just charge and yet require tactics.

Sorry just felt the need to step in I wanted to eliminate someone.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> Exitus_10 you're ignoring some of the information in the HH novels as well. 2nd book in the flashback while Horus is "healing" he is shown the emperors room while the primarchs are being created. The emperor says Horus will betray him. Theres also the fact that Horus tells Loken that the Emperor told him of Chaos after a demon took over one of Lokens men.
> 
> Then again if a chaos argument is nullified will Lord Waffles say its all an Alpha Legion plan?


Can you please tell me which books and which pages for that Loken thing, I would like to see it and comment on that.
The Vision Horus had was a part hallucination and part reality a warped coma dream you cannot cite it as a reality or a real scene, i was in his mind. Either way if he knew so well why not stop it, why not prepare for it? He didnt canonically now did he? so therfore using the method of elimination he never knew or was more of an idiot than expected, hell he didnt even listen to Magnus mate!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

CommanderAnthor said:


> We're not the ones that left to get more power cause we suck ass and look now with more demon powers it's still first to pull the trigger first to win.
> 
> That's the reason why you aren't rampaging morons that just charge and yet require tactics.
> 
> Sorry just felt the need to step in I wanted to eliminate someone.


Of courser you did, what the hell was the Emperor greatest doing in his dig site? making apples? No he was breaking into the webway to 'gain more power' and then he died in the heresy and you put him in a Golden Toilet. Yes the daemon power is only given to those chosen by the Gods, most of them arent adversely affected, except mabe the followers of Tzeentch and Nurgle. But then again the Imperials have no hope of defeating Chaos...Ever! But Chaos has a very good chance of beating the living crap of Imperium, as it has been hammering away at the forces of the Imperium in and around the Cadian gate, 13 times they have rampaged across the Imperium and 13 times as explained in a thread before these are the pieces of a grander strategy set to completely destroy and annihilate the realm of the False Emperor.

BTW I really didnt understand he whole eliminate someone part, where you talking to me?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

So you followed someone into Heresy, because they decided to spazz out and listen to a raving madman following hallucinations? Safe.

"This Golden Toilet" was already there, or the basis of it was. It was used to power the Astronomicon - it was modified, however, to provide life support. And this 'golden toilet' was right where your almighty Primarch, Magnus was going to be.

And for Magnus, I'm looking at it from this point of view. He was told not to do something for his own good. An analogy of putting his hand into the fire. When he was told off (burnt), he thought I don't like that, I'm going to get rid of that. More phobic than the Imperium is basically. More _weak_.


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## Unknown Soldier (Oct 24, 2008)

Chaos better then the Imperials? Yes, no, maybe. Will Chaos ever totally defeat the Imperium? Doubtful. Why? Sheer numbers.

If several Tyrannid Hive Fleets couldn't overwhelm the Imperium (and they number in the billions) how will a bunch of ornately dressed antiquated SM do any better?

The only way Chaos could destroy the Imperium, would be to create the mother of all Warp Storms and totally decimate the galaxy. Of course, with the galaxy weakened to such an extent, it would be prime for invasion by the various other factions that make up the universe.

Chaos could destroy the Imperium but it would only herald their own destruction by the Tyrannid, Tau, Necron, etc. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> Of courser you did, what the hell was the Emperor greatest doing in his dig site? making apples? No he was breaking into the webway to 'gain more power' and then he died in the heresy and you put him in a Golden Toilet. Yes the daemon power is only given to those chosen by the Gods, most of them arent adversely affected, except mabe the followers of Tzeentch and Nurgle. But then again the Imperials have no hope of defeating Chaos...Ever! But Chaos has a very good chance of beating the living crap of Imperium, as it has been hammering away at the forces of the Imperium in and around the Cadian gate, 13 times they have rampaged across the Imperium and 13 times as explained in a thread before these are the pieces of a grander strategy set to completely destroy and annihilate the realm of the False Emperor.
> 
> BTW I really didnt understand he whole eliminate someone part, where you talking to me?



Eliminate was atheory to like eliminate chaos xD

I'm feeling left out soI had to put an arguement 

But the 13 times you guys where ramming our gate we held it off, if you guys where thinking tactics it seems that was your tactic and nothing happened lol

Also it's stated in a codex that some marines can offer their bodies to a demon and when they fight the demon rises out of them so he shares the body.

And obliterators are more daemon then normal supposedly.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> Exitus_10 you're ignoring some of the information in the HH novels as well. 2nd book in the flashback while Horus is "healing" he is shown the emperors room while the primarchs are being created. The emperor says Horus will betray him. Theres also the fact that Horus tells Loken that the Emperor told him of Chaos after a demon took over one of Lokens men.
> 
> Then again if a chaos argument is nullified will Lord Waffles say its all an Alpha Legion plan?


really? then why dont you post the page and the quote? Emp doesnt say Horus will betray him and he didnt tell Horus of Chaos either... Emp never did tell any of the primarch's about it. The most info they had on the warp and its gods was, there are semi sentient beings inside. Emp never said anything about chaos to Horus...


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

why does every imperial player hate the alpha legion so much? is it because a whole legion has been operating from inside the imperium without even the slightest hint of getting caught? the fact that they raise so many cults and raide so many worlds and still get away with it with little to no retribution? face it you hate the alpha legion because they are doing for chaos what you cannot do for the imperium, infiltrate, sabotage and gain information that other legions cant.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Probably because the Alpha Legion is the main army of LordWaffles, and the Ultramarines (typecast Marines - Mallet headed numpties going "we will never bow") vs. Sneaky Sneaky Alpha Legion, not to mention alternative battle plans, completely at opposite ends of the spectrum. Complete difference, easier to see the difference between them than World Eaters and Space Wolves/Blood Angels (i.e, Drink blood, and charge headlong without thought of safety, or drink blood/supersuper 500X beer and charge headlong without thought of safety).

Easier to draw parrallels between the former, as direct conflict.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Aye, probably scared that the next watch coming to replace them are Alpha Legion in disguise. :grin:

It would see odd that they are singled out though, surely the Word Bearers should be more reviled, after all they started the whole mess. Nice job lads. :good:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

CommanderAnthor said:


> Eliminate was atheory to like eliminate chaos xD
> 
> I'm feeling left out soI had to put an arguement
> 
> ...


Good gods man you must be a fool not to see that the area Around Cadian Gate being completely drained of resources and defence forces, it was all a ploy to break it all into pieces, just like Morgoth did in the Siege of Angband, what you call tactics are the same things used against you matey just look at what happened the 13 time you were invaded.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Unknown Soldier said:


> Chaos better then the Imperials? Yes, no, maybe. Will Chaos ever totally defeat the Imperium? Doubtful. Why? Sheer numbers.
> 
> If several Tyrannid Hive Fleets couldn't overwhelm the Imperium (and they number in the billions) how will a bunch of ornately dressed antiquated SM do any better?
> 
> ...


You have to realize the cost of the conflicts, no way they can hold on forever Imperium was in steady decay since the death of the Emperor an in10000 years of heresies and uprisings wars and expansion a hell of a lot of people have been slaughtered and manpower has been cut down significantly in many sectors. If you think about it the Imperium can never be truly defeated with its greatest weapon.....manpower, once it is strained and maniopulated down crashes the Imperium of the False Emperor


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Druchii in Space said:


> Aye, probably scared that the next watch coming to replace them are Alpha Legion in disguise. :grin:
> 
> It would see odd that they are singled out though, surely the Word Bearers should be more reviled, after all they started the whole mess. Nice job lads. :good:


THANK YOU! finally some one with some sense


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I think the Alpha legion are one of the best legions ever! i love thier tactics. for 100 marines to circle you and all of them to say at the same tim "I am Alpharius" and make you go crazy is cool.

also the Alpha legion is quite a problem for the Imperium right now as the Imperium is focused on Hive Fleet Kraken, the 14th black crusade and the Tau empire so with all those worries the Alpha legion sneak in, kick ass then dissapear


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Praise Lorgar!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> Praise Lorgar!


Yes Praise to the greatest Primarch to first find the true path, his blessed Legions Tens of Thousands strong march across the broken worlds of the false Emperor. The Galaxy will be awash with the blood of the enemies of the Dark Gods. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!.

I just ot a bit too excited.


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

Supa Omega Death Ray> Chaos and Imperium


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

if anyone other than abaddon were to lead the chaos legions against the imperium it would most likely be lorgar. after all he was the mastermind behind the heresy


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

I vote Fulgrim! :laugh:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

go perturabo! tearing down people's shit like nobodies business.


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## sopmod (Oct 9, 2008)

i can't find it but someone posted that chaos CAN ONY COME OUT OF THE EYE OF TERROR? if the imperum is being led by people like him they are doomed.


Because obivously some live in the malestrom and ferak warp rifts. EG how would the world bearers get all the way to the Macragge sun from the EYE of TERROR?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

sopmod said:


> i can't find it but someone posted that chaos CAN ONY COME OUT OF THE EYE OF TERROR? if the imperum is being led by people like him they are doomed.


well thats the main base for most of the legions, I know a fair few of them are in the Maelstrom though.


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## SonOfHorus (Oct 7, 2008)

Angron ftw!!!


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