# Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts/Sorcerer Lords



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I have two questions for you.

Firstly, we all know how insane, and thus not-exactly-useful Chaos Dreadnoughts are. But what if it is a Thousand Son Dreadnought? Their Marines turned into Rubric Marines, emotionless automatons thanks to Ahriman, we know that; but what happened to the Dreadnoughts? It is only logical to assume that they too ended up being brainwashed and telepathically linked to their sorcerer brethren. However, I couldn't find a single note or hint on this in the CSM codex, nor on Lexicanum. My question is: were the Thousand Sons' Dreadnoughts affected by the Rubric of Ahriman? Why/why not? Is there a possibility that this might recieve some attention by GW, or is it not worth it?

Secondly, there was something odd in the CSM codex. On page 70, there is a picture of a "Sorcerer Lord" of The Scourged; six pages later, he is called a "Sorcerer in Terminator Armour" by the army list. I immediately checked the codex's article on Sorcerers and Chaos Lords, and it seems that having a Sorcerer Lord is not possible: you can have either a Chaos Lord, or a Sorcerer, though the Terminator Armour is possible for both. However, in the Chaos Lord article, there are a few sentences on the Champion of Tzeentch, which hints that a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch is a potent magic user. What bugs me is that even though there is this bit of fluff, you can't buff your Tzeentchian Chaos Lord with any spell at all, not even a Doombolt. My question: is the title "Sorcerer Lord" true only fluff-wise (which means that technically hes still a Sorcerer, he just happens to be the boss around, but then why call him a Sorcerer Lord??)? Would it be a stupid idea/out of place to give a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord a spell or two?


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

For the first question I'm afraid I can't help you. However, the second question is much easier to answer. Being a sorceror used to be an upgrade for chaos lieutenants and lords, it wasn't a separate HQ choice and Tzeentch sorceror lords were the most potent because they always passed every psychic test automatically. Or it's just a typo.:shok:


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## your master (Jun 14, 2008)

not sure on the first but i think the rubican will of worked on the dreads too. the second one i think it would depend on what you give as wargear. you can have a sorcerer in TA and leave him bog standard or you can give him mark of tzeench and a familiar as well and turn him into a crazy sorcerer. as one is better than the other you could make the distinction.


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## Tau22 (Apr 27, 2009)

Question 1: No idea... but that can also depend on the amount of psyker abilities the guy in the dreadnaught once had. (Are there sorcerer-dreadnaughts?)
Anyway, if he was strong enough, maybe he got out of the Rubrics power... and probably became insane, like most others.
The others would probably be automatons, in my opinion.

Question 2: Conflicting fluff and rules, ftw!
Yes, Tzeentchey-belonging Chaos Lords should have at least some spells... I mean, come on! They're serving TZEENTCH!!!


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Who's to say the ones in the Thousand Sons dreadnought or even any other Thousand Sons vehicle are not Automatons you can't tell me that their all sorcerers. I also have a feeling that some chaos lords did not want to wait for a half dead guy so they could have a Chaos Dreads they could have easily just forced someone inside as a form of punishment as chaos marines do not find it to be honorable to be a dreadnought. It is also extremely rare to have a traitor legion dreadnought that has survived from the days of the Horus Heresy so you could easily say that the Thousand Sons didn't have any more and any of the ones that they built after the Heresy may have had a slave or some other marine placed inside one. In the previous codex you could have daemonic possession as an upgrade for chaos dread if that were still possible you could easily say that your Thousand Sons dreadnought was effected by the Rubricon; but then it would still have the Crazed special rule and I don't think that would be very fitting for a Rubric Dreadnought; but maybe a Rubric Dreadnought is a creation of a rubric marine being fused inside a dreadnought and daemons slip in with it and the soul of the Rubric marine is tortured by daemons and that's why it would have Crazed. Oh and I find Chaos Dreads useful; but I use a dreadclaw to drop mine in someones backyard.

Jackinator has part of the 2nd question covered with reference to the previous codex and who cares if a Tzeencth Lord doesn't have any spells. Mark of Tzeentch doesn't mean sorcerer powers are a given even thou it did in the previous codex; but Tzeentch could have said no you're a better servant without them. Now Thousand Sons leaders are all Sorcerers so if your running a Thousand Sons list only then you shouldn't be running anything else otherwise. Ah now I wish I could have Rubric Terminators again they would probably be so awesome right now *sigh


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I consider question 2 answered by the posts of Jackinator and imintdead, and I share Tau22's feelings on the topic.

However, the issue of TS Dreadnoughts is far not concluded in my opinion. 

If you look carefully, you find that the effects of the Rubric of Ahriman are not all too detailed. I quote: 

_"The results were not what Ahriman wanted, much less expected. The Thousand Sons were now safe from the taint of chaos, but at a terrible price. Those who had psychic powers were greatly strengthened. But those who hadn’t had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their souls were damned to live inside their armour forever, changing most of the legion into Rubric Marines; little more than mindless ghosts." _
(http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thousand_Sons)

This hints that not only the Marines were affected by the spell, but _the Legion as a whole_. Now you could argue that not every Marine had his PA on when the spell was cast, but you could rightfully say that such minor issues are of little concern to the Lord of Change. The supporting crew, who were not Marines at all? They're not relevant neither to the spell, nor the concerns of Ahriman; he was interested in saving his brothers, not the maggots serving them. Tank crew? Well, since they're waring PA too (correct me here if I'm wrong, I'm bluffing to be honest ), the effects of the Rubric should apply to them as well (technically, you could treat the crew as Rubric Marines).

But what happened to the Dreadnoughts? It would certainly raise an eyebrow that they were the only ones who were not affected by Ahriman's sorcery. Consequently, they too had the remains of their bodies turned into dust, their will bent to that of their sorcerers and their emotions dulled/torn out from them. This logically means that Thousand Son Dreadnoughts should not have the Crazed rule, for this very reason. I wouldn't consider this game-braking or anything, since GW could easily make the restriction that they could only be deployed in a Thousand Son army that has a Sorcerer or a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord. 

What do you think?


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## Fire starter Pyro (Apr 1, 2009)

Arn't Dreads normally Kept in stasis fields which as far as i can discern remove the object within from the normal passage of time so it could be fair to say that the spell may not have affected them.

secondly you could have it that the Rubic affected them and that the soul of the occupant is still in the throes of pain inflicted on it by the "pain divice", i can't remember the term used in the codex but it is mentioned that the pilots of Chaos dreads are kept in constant pain when not hardwired into the dreads body. this could be in the 3rd ed codex CS im not sure.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

From what I remember from the CSM codex I have (which seems to be the newest one, since it says the exact same things as everyone else's) they are simply kept outside of their Dreadnoughts, in a tube that keeps them alive but "offline", in a coma-like state. When the Chaos fleet nears its target, the Dreadnoughts weapons are armed and filled with ammo, and the pilot is put in, and by the time the gets DS-ed to the battlefield, hes fully awake... and pissed. The Dreadnought itself is chained, in fear of some remnant of the pilot's soul is still inside, but theres no mention of the machine being anywhere more special than a hangar... If there were any mention of a pain device or anything of the like, I'm sure I'd remember it. I'd look it up, but I don't have it on me right now. Could anyone clarify this?

About your second argument... well... firstly, I'm not trying to find a logical explanation for why TS Dreadnoughts have the Crazed rule; quite the opposite, they shouldn't have it at all in my opinion. Secondly, the Rubric did the same to everyone, as it is described in the link I quoted from and posted above. And I don't see why should it have a different effect on Dreadnoughts. It doesn't seem logical to me.


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

the crazed rule really blows dosent it. here you go guys heres a nice fluffy unit, btw its crazed and as such compleatly useless, its worse than kharn the betrayer for killing its own side. 
i think the 3 i have here will probly never get built or painted fully again. if i do it will only be because i like the mini. 

you would think that a chaos marine that has been made more powerful and given a bigger gun would be slap happy about it, especially if hes carrying on the work of the dark gods rather than being a cripple on the battle barge. 

the thousand sons are a prime example why we need a chaos legions book, there one of the most deviant armys in the entire 40k universe ffs.


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

for the first question it's really 50 50. i don't think any of the vechiles belonging to Thousands Sons became automaton because they already were, and they have no brain. So Thousands Sons Dreadnoughts might be too much machine to be affected. That being said, every thinking marine was turned into automaton besides the ones with warp powers, so maybe they were incased in their armour. If they had psykic abilities then no and they would have been heaps more powerful.

For the second one i think a tzeench Chaos lord should be able to have Psykic powers. To have survived the Rubric without being turned into automaton must have meant he was a Sorcerer, and it wouldn't make sense he just forgot how to use psykic powers once he became a Lord.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Angels Of Flame said:


> the crazed rule really blows dosent it. here you go guys heres a nice fluffy unit, btw its crazed and as such compleatly useless, its worse than kharn the betrayer for killing its own side.
> i think the 3 i have here will probly never get built or painted fully again. if i do it will only be because i like the mini.
> 
> you would think that a chaos marine that has been made more powerful and given a bigger gun would be slap happy about it, especially if hes carrying on the work of the dark gods rather than being a cripple on the battle barge.
> ...


My problem is not the Crazed rule; though it does seem odd that CSM consider becoming a Dreadnought a bad thing, since they achieve immortality, in a sense. Not to mention that every Traitor Legion has different views on this. For example, an Iron Warriors CSM would be out of his mind with joy if you ask me, while World Eaters would simply have none for obvious reasons. We could go on with the list, but as you have said, we desperately need a Codex that goes through at least the First Founding Traitor Legions, unit by unit (Rubric Termies, Raptors, Havocs and Chosen come to mind), so that issues such as this one could be solved at last.




Lupercal101 said:


> for the first question it's really 50 50. i don't think any of the vechiles belonging to Thousands Sons became automaton because they already were, and they have no brain. So Thousands Sons Dreadnoughts might be too much machine to be affected. That being said, every thinking marine was turned into automaton besides the ones with warp powers, so maybe they were incased in their armour. If they had psykic abilities then no and they would have been heaps more powerful.
> 
> For the second one i think a tzeench Chaos lord should be able to have Psykic powers. To have survived the Rubric without being turned into automaton must have meant he was a Sorcerer, and it wouldn't make sense he just forgot how to use psykic powers once he became a Lord.


I didn't say that the _vehicles_ turned into automatons, but the _crew_, which would have some kind of effect on Crew specific rules. However, you do seem to have a point there, saying that the Dreads could have been too much machine to be affected. Not a decisive, but a solid point.

LOL the concept of "Dreadnought Sorcerers" just came to my mind. The guy was some badass Sorcerer when he was walking on his own feet, but then he got blasted to pieces by some huge cannon. The Apothecaries managed to save him, but they had to put him into a Dreadnought. With some insane amount of luck, he survived the Horus Heresy and lived long enough to see the Rubric of Ahriman in its full glory. Then, since he was a Sorcerer, his powers got boosted, blablabla... There you go, a Dreadnought with no Crazed rule, in fact, stuffed with Warptime, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, whatnot... the guy would probably cost 240 points to field, maybe even 280, with enough guns and spells to take out whole squads singlehandedly... 

About the second question, there seems to be a concensus about this up here. Thats good.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

I'd guess the Rubric was as it was complex enough to just encompass the normal marines while the dread's pilot could be as little as a brain in a case instead of being a whole marine. It's a nice thought to think Tson dreads would be sane because they would be autonomatonic but that opens a can of worms as to what other CSM units should be different specific to their legions and then how you might be able to combine units from different legions. While I miss the Iron Warrior's rules I think the vanillization of the current CSM codex was a big step in simplifying it and leveling it out power wise.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Lord of Rebirth said:


> I'd guess the Rubric was as it was complex enough to just encompass the normal marines while the dread's pilot could be as little as a brain in a case instead of being a whole marine. It's a nice thought to think Tson dreads would be sane because they would be autonomatonic but that opens a can of worms as to what other CSM units should be different specific to their legions and then how you might be able to combine units from different legions. While I miss the Iron Warrior's rules I think the vanillization of the current CSM codex was a big step in simplifying it and leveling it out power wise.


But it also made being Chaos boring, and it aroused issues such as this one where fluff and rules are in conflict. Perfect idea. 
Let me argue with your statement a little.

*Combination of units from different Legions* 
I guess fluff doesn't matter much, since it is almost regular to see Khorne Berzerkers and Slaaneshi Noise Marines in the same army, despite the fact that these two deities are archenemies. If this were a concern, it would take only some ink to enforce this rule, like making a CSM Legions codex where they say "Take fluff seriously goddammit, or the Chaos Gods will rip your limbs off".
From a gamer perspective, the previous idea would solve the problem of having Khorne Berzerkers with sane Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts in the front lines. Considering the usual bypassing of rules through cunning (which is more than welcome if you ask me), you wouldn't be able to make an unbeatable Chaos army, because Chaos is everything but unbeatable. We're pricy, and can't field too many units at once, though what we do field tends to be badass (DPs, Obliterators, TS, etc.). Well played Necron Monoliths: more of a worry if you ask me.

*"Simplifying" and "leveling out power"*
First of all, I never considered WH40K a game that would be "simple" in any way, in comparison with most strategy games available. In fact, having more cunning and brains than your opponent is the whole point of this game in my opinion. 
From a more cynical perspective, favouring certain units over others does make your job simpler, because it takes guts (which lot of people don't have) to field units that aren't obviously great. I'm talking about Cult Troops here mainly (that shouldn't come as a surprise), but there are other units that require some attention, such as the Dreadnought and the DP (for example, is it just me who finds it absurd that DPs can't have Personal Icons?). Lets not start an argument over these guys, we're already going off topic.
With this in mind, the concept of every Legion having the same power level is hilarious. You rarely see Tzeentchian army lists, or even mentioned in one at all, and not just because of popularity issues. If it were worth it, people would field Tzeentchian armies more often, but since it doesn't, only raging Tzeentch fans such as myself stick to the Changer of Ways.

What I would like to point out with this rant is that it would be much welcome (and necessary, I might add) for GW to release a CSM Legions Codex, one of the thicker kind, and settle this issue once and for all. I believe I'm not alone when I say that I want my Legion to be unique, to have a different atmosphere than any other. For example, it feels totally wrong that a Word Bearer army feels pretty much like a Black Legion Army gameplay-wise: you can field anything you want, the only difference is the colour. If I roll Word Bearers, I want to have cheaper Daemons, because thats what they say in the fluff, that they summon hordes of them to serve as meat shield. If I play Iron Warriors, I want cheaper vehicles, sane Dreadnoughts, and more heavy weapons. If I play Red Corsairs, I want faster Troops and cheaper Fast Attack units. You get the idea.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Lupercal101 said:


> For the second one i think a tzeench Chaos lord should be able to have Psykic powers. To have survived the Rubric without being turned into automaton must have meant he was a Sorcerer, and it wouldn't make sense he just forgot how to use psykic powers once he became a Lord.


Being Tzeentch doesn't mean you were a Thousand Sons and Tzeentch works in mysterious ways and could have easily decided that some of his followers will not have any powers. We need to get that straight Tzeentch doesn't automatically make you Thousand Sons other wise we wouldn't have chaos marines with the mark of Tzeentch and all they get is an Invulnerable Save.



Khorothis said:


> My problem is not the Crazed rule; though it does seem odd that CSM consider becoming a Dreadnought a bad thing, since they achieve immortality, in a sense. Not to mention that every Traitor Legion has different views on this. For example, an Iron Warriors CSM would be out of his mind with joy if you ask me, while World Eaters would simply have none for obvious reasons. We could go on with the list, but as you have said, we desperately need a Codex that goes through at least the First Founding Traitor Legions, unit by unit (Rubric Termies, Raptors, Havocs and Chosen come to mind), so that issues such as this one could be solved at last.


Im sure they love the immortality part its just the other parts read the third paragraph for the Chaos Dread entry in the current CSM Codex pg 40 or the summary on pg 35 of the previous codex. Personnally I think an Iron Warrior would prefer to be a part of the obliterator cult then be a chaos dread.



Khorothis said:


> However, you do seem to have a point there, saying that the Dreads could have been too much machine to be affected. Not a decisive, but a solid point.


That brings up an interesting question does there have to be a body? something of flesh and blood to operate the dread? I know before you could have daemonic possession; but that just means a daemonic entity took control of the half dead dread pilot. So maybe the rubric did turn the TSons dreads into automatons; but they could not operate the machinery of the dread and their souls were put in power armour. Of coarse we are basing this conversation on the idea that the TSons had dreads when the rubric was released I'm not saying they didn't have dreads; but the dread may have all been lost before the rubric. 



Khorothis said:


> But it also made being Chaos boring, and it aroused issues such as this one where fluff and rules are in conflict. Perfect idea.


 Its true the dark gods lost quite a few good followers with the current codex. Some friends of mine, all they play are Chaos Space Marine and now they don't even play 40K because they feel they were stbbed in the back and once the new space marine codex had came out it was like a kick in the balls followed by a mocking laugh. It wasn't simplified and leveled it out it was gang raped as the infamous traitor legions were put in the same place as renegade space marine chapters :ireful2:


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I have read that part, many times in fact, so I wouldn't say BS. However, I can't ignore the feeling that this Crazed stuff about Dreads is a little... forced. I mean, Berzerkers could have it too, simple CSM even, because just who isn't *CENSORED* crazy among the Chaos worshippers? Come on... ah well, I'll just get back to painting... its relaxing...

_"That brings up an interesting question does there have to be a body? something of flesh and blood to operate the dread? I know before you could have daemonic possession; but that just means a daemonic entity took control of the half dead dread pilot. So maybe the rubric did turn the TSons dreads into automatons; but they could not operate the machinery of the dread and their souls were put in power armour. Of coarse we are basing this conversation on the idea that the TSons had dreads when the rubric was released I'm not saying they didn't have dreads; but the dread may have all been lost before the rubric."_
I'm convinced. Well, a CSM Legion Codex would be more convincing, but I'm afraid this has to be enough for the time being.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> I have read that part, many times in fact, so I wouldn't say BS. However, I can't ignore the feeling that this Crazed stuff about Dreads is a little... forced. I mean, Berzerkers could have it too, simple CSM even, because just who isn't *CENSORED* crazy among the Chaos worshippers? Come on... ah well, I'll just get back to painting... its relaxing...
> 
> I'm convinced. Well, a CSM Legion Codex would be more convincing, but I'm afraid this has to be enough for the time being.


I think they left the Crazed rule to seperate the chaos dreads from imperial dreads and then didn't realize how much chaos marines players would not care to use them once they didnt have the cool vehicle upgrades anymore.

Maybe we should start a post on a Thousand Sons codex over in houserules and homebrews. We could cover their specific units add our own little tid bits of fluff explaining them. Ah its just a thought.

I myself am more partial to the Word Bearers; but the Thousand Sons are awesome.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

As much as I like the idea of a legion army (They _really_ should do it). It would split my legion in two, literally. I'm kinda torn between Tzeench and Khorne and well, anyone can see the problem there.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

imntdead said:


> I think they left the Crazed rule to seperate the chaos dreads from imperial dreads and then didn't realize how much chaos marines players would not care to use them once they didnt have the cool vehicle upgrades anymore.
> 
> Maybe we should start a post on a Thousand Sons codex over in houserules and homebrews. We could cover their specific units add our own little tid bits of fluff explaining them. Ah its just a thought.
> 
> I myself am more partial to the Word Bearers; but the Thousand Sons are awesome.


Homebrew TS? Sounds nice. I'm in. 

Hey, they're my two favourite Legions too!  Though honestly I can't tell which one I like more.



Asmodeun said:


> As much as I like the idea of a legion army (They _really_ should do it). It would split my legion in two, literally. I'm kinda torn between Tzeench and Khorne and well, anyone can see the problem there.


There are a few Undivided Legions you might find enjoyable, but lets not forget the loaaads of Renegade Chapters out there. Plus theres good ol' Abaddon and Huron, they're always happy to have *any* kind of troops in their army, so long as they kill what they are told to kill. Also, Khorne and Tzeentch aren't archenemies, they just hate each other to death; for example, in DoW: Winter Assault, the Khornite Chaos Lord had a Sorcerer helping him. Of course, the Lord often threatened the Sorcerer with death, but thats nothing out of the ordinary in a Chaos army if you ask me.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Asmodeun said:


> As much as I like the idea of a legion army (They _really_ should do it). It would split my legion in two, literally. I'm kinda torn between Tzeench and Khorne and well, anyone can see the problem there.





Khorothis said:


> There are a few Undivided Legions you might find enjoyable, but lets not forget the loaaads of Renegade Chapters out there. Plus theres good ol' Abaddon and Huron, they're always happy to have *any* kind of troops in their army, so long as they kill what they are told to kill. Also, Khorne and Tzeentch aren't archenemies, they just hate each other to death; for example, in DoW: Winter Assault, the Khornite Chaos Lord had a Sorcerer helping him. Of course, the Lord often threatened the Sorcerer with death, but thats nothing out of the ordinary in a Chaos army if you ask me.


 Well I figure Black Legion would be pretty much going by the current codex with the take what you want attitude; but there would be legion specific units that they couldn't have like an uncrazed TSons Dreadnought. Or for example I always figure if there was true TSons force there could be squads of Rubric Marines operating with out the sorcerer just like the Eldars wraithguard; but they would have a downfall like the Eldars wraithguard special rule wraith sight and to void out that rule you can have a sorcerer. Now thats how a true TSons force would be; but for an Undivided army you get the standard TSons with a Sorcerer as it is presented now. So yeah you can have TSons, plague marines and such rolled into one but if you want legion specific and have other certain toys you go legion specific.

well I put up a new thread in Houserules and Homebrews concerning the idea of a Thousand Sons specific codex feel free to post what you like


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

I'd just like to point out that even in the old codex it would have been perfectly legal for a chaos player to field Khorne Beserkers and Noise Marines in an army led by an undivided HQ. They would have had to be elites, but fluff could fairly easily be concocted for them. More worrying, in my opinion, would be for someone to make an entire army out of conversions of beserkers, and then have actual Khorne beserker models converted to noise marines and still call them 'world eaters'. That is pushing it - or would have been in the old codex.


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## QAeternus (Nov 25, 2008)

In the old Index Astartes article, the dreadnaughts didn't roll on the "wig-out" table. IIRC


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