# Marines v Avatar of Khaine



## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

So I have this game coming up soon against an old mate who is also, unfortunately, a scumbag. His list largely revolves around Eldrad shepherding a fortuned avatar into your line which then rips your head off and pisses down the neckhole.

My question is: How the hell do you take down a fortuned avatar?

The only thing I can think of is a 10 man unit of sternguard led by a librarian with null-zone drop-podding early in the game. 

Ideas, people. I need ideas.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Jump in your pimpwagons and ride around wooping and a hollering. The Avatar is slow so don't sweat it too much. Run away from him and pew pew up the rest of his list, then deal with the Avatar. 

Aramoro


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## Niffty (Aug 5, 2009)

I play Eldar and since I also use a farseer to get the Avatar into battle, my best suggestion is to just get shooting at it. Enough AP 2 will force it to take its 4+ saves "which" should fail. MY avatar has dies to lots of heavy sustained fire, but that's what we want. All that heavy fire being diverted from the rest of the army means the rest of the Eldar force will do some royal pain. Beware of the Avatar, but don't freak out. You take out ELdar armies by removing units, ruining their ability to support other units. If you're still especially afraid consider running some deamon hunters as allies. Not only do they back a punch, but Inquisitors, pysker powers, and war gear option have alot of save canceling options. Don't forget the Avatar has the Daemon rule, so demon hunters can have a field day with it.

On a side note, this tactic is worthy of scum bag. Its dangerous and fun to play with, but not unfair. If you want scumbag try playing Eldrad in a unit of harlies w/ veil of tears. Add two fire prisms and things start looking really bad.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Fortuned Avatar isn't even a decent tactic. Is the Farseer by himself? And he DOESN'T have Fortune cast on him? Hit him with 2 Krak missiles and watch him die. Suddenly the Avatar has no psychic support and dies to rapid-firing boltguns. If the Farseer is in a unit, just hit the unit with Heavy Bolters and Blast weapons and it'll die rather easily.

Or just feed the Avatar a tactical squad and laugh as he wastes 2-3 turns killing it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Tactical squad with a Hidden fist as the above post says. He'll take it down, and if not, he'll knock off the odd wound at the very least.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Good advice guys. But I suppose context is everything, so luckily, I have his army list to hand. It's this one:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ryId=cat1300098&pIndex=6&aId=4600008a&start=7

Can we build an army list to stomp this?

Currently in my collection:

4x 10 man tac.
3x rhinos.
1x drop pod.
1x 10 man dev.
1x 10 man assault.
1x 5 man sniper scout.
1x 5 man scout.
1x 5 man Terminator.
1x 5 man Terminator TH/SS.
1x 5 man Terminator, or LC assault (magnetised).
1x Standard Raider.
1x LR Redeemer.
1x Whirlwind.
1x 5 man bikes (with attack bike)
1x mm dread.
1x ven dread.
1x captain/chapter master.
1x chaplain w/ jump pack.
1x librarian terminator.
1x Calgar (with honour guard).

On top of this, I have perhaps £40 I would be willing to spend. I'm thinking of Landspeeders, but would be open to ideas.

(Now posted this in 'army lists' as well, so feel free to comment there instead!)


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

jpunk said:


> Good advice guys. But I suppose context is everything, so luckily, I have his army list to hand. It's this one:
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ryId=cat1300098&pIndex=6&aId=4600008a&start=7
> 
> Can we build an army list to stomp this?
> ...


Ok, against that list. You'll need 2 tactical squads in Rhinos. Both packing missile launchers and meltaguns. Park one on your home objective and use the rhino's fire point for the missile launcher. The other will be your reserve unit, keep it back until you see a gap in your line.
Next, you defo want those TH/SS termis. They will be your anchor against the Wraithlords and avatar. To keep them safe, place them in a Standard Land raider, use that to knock wounds off of the monsterous creatures, OR if the oppotunity arrises, take out any seer council. 
The 5 sniper scouts are also a must.
10 Assault marines w/ sergeant w/ powerfist led by the Chaplain will be your avatar hunters. Deep strike them in to attack him. The re-roll to hit on the charge granted from the chaplain will help you pull it down. 
Thats about 1200 points thus far.
To deal with the Prism, you'll need some firepower, although it's not a massive priority. It's fast, so you'll need to keep up with it, so consider an Attack bike squadron (I know you only have one).
Due to the fact he has a large jetbike unit, it means you're going to have to try and cover at least 3 objectives. So I now recommend a 3rd tactical squad in a drop pod. Hold onto this till later on and try and get to his objective. 
Anything else is down to you.

He has a very mobile army, but it's not very big. So he will be reacting to you, rather than expecting you to sit and wait for him. So push hard. Try and get in amongst his units and break up his line. By forcing units into solitude, you can put the pressure onto him. As dangerous as the avatar is, I believe the Terminators can deal with him, so focus on knocking out the Wraiths and Prism. Then deal with the Avengers. Your Assault marines can waste his infantry, as he may have lots of rules, but low toughness. 

Failing that, Gunline him. He won't last long when you're pelting him with projectiles, he just doesn't have the manpower to survive that.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Cheers Orochi.

The main reservation I would have with your ideas are that his fire dragons will be on that LR and likely as not pop it in the first turn. He uses them as a suicide squad to hobble whatever he sees as the greatest mech threat, and a single LR is prime rib for dragons. (Mind you, I have a single LR in my attempt at a list as well).


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

- 4 tac squads with Missile launchers or lascannon if you have the points. Melta guns for specials and a powerfist each
- 5 TH/SS termies in a normal Raider
- Dev squad with 4 Missile Launchers or Lascannon if you have the points
- 5 Assault marines with 'Fist and Plasma pistol

Deploy at the back of your zone and stand still, blazing away with heavy weapons. Target priority is:

- Fire Dragon Wave Serpent. Once the transport dies, ignore the unit.
- Wraithlords
- Dire Avenger Wave Serpent. Once the transport dies, ignore the unit.
- Jetbike squads

Hopefully by turn 2 one of the Serpents will be down and you'll have a wound or two on a Wraithlord. Start moving away from him during turn 3, and keep shooting, hopefully killing a Wraithlord and dropping both Serpents. Eventually meet him in combat with TH/SS termies. Your 5 Assault marines are your "Prism hunting" unit, and will chase it for the entire game, preventing it from shooting anything. Consider Deep Striking them to get a shot at rear armour. Remember that if it's an objectives game that killing the Jetbikes is actually the easiest way to win.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Agreed. A Predator destructer will keep the Fire dragons in line if you pop it's transport. 
The scouts will be able to take wounds off of the MCs, one of each model would be earning their worth. 
As I said, he has a low low model count, so capitalise on that.

And yes, a lone raider would be the obvious target for his dragons, but thats exactly the point, you know exactly where they will be heading, allowing you to control where he places them.
Try placing the Raider on one flank, meaning he will most likely set up opposite it behind cover. Then, make sure you have plenty of fire lanes allowing you to shoot down the serpent, then fry the dragons.
Even if thats all you accomplish that one turn, thats great.

Alternatively, LET him destroy the land raider and use it as a bottle neck. A wrecked tank means he has to go around it with those MCs. Then you can both take it in turns playing cat and mouse, lure him out to attack you, and pick him off one at a time. The key to that would be making sure you have a strong base group (aka 3 tactical squads) and keep them together. If you can accomplish that, he cannot rely on being able to pick you apart. 4 losses from a unit isn't so bad when they are stood by their friends.

for 120 points you can grab 3 attack bikes w/ heavy bolters. This in itself poses a problem for him, as they are 3 models who can harm the Lords and avatar (just) but more importantly, will mow down his aspect warriors and put the heat on his Jetbikes.

Landspeeder Typhoons will also be a massive pain in his arse.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Something I knocked up:

1 librarian, Null Zone, Gate
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist 
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist
5 man Terminator, TH/SS, LR
1 Dreadnought, MM, HF, drop-pod
1 landspeeder, MM, HF
1 landspeeder, MM, HF 
5 man Assault, power fist 


I was thinking of dropping the dread and going for either the dragons transport or the fire prism first turn, and the assault squad would be useful for chasing jetbikes off objectives as well. The landspeeders would make themselves a nuisance to the wraithlords or take oppurtunistic pot-shots at the rear of falcons.

The other option would be to drop the dread in favour of extra special and heavy weapons, and change one tac squad to a dev.

Opinions/ideas?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'd question the use of Land Speeders and the Dreadnought. The Land Speeders will go down very easily to the Heavy Weapons on the Wraithlords and Serpents, and the Dread will get crushed by any of his MCs in combat.

Drop podding the dread is reliant on you getting the first turn, otherwise he'll just turbo-all his tanks and they'll have a 4+ cover save during your turn 1. Even if you DO go first then it's possible he'll keep the Prism in reserve and trust in Energy Fields to protect the Serpents (no 2D6 penetration for you!).

Overall, I think the Devestators would do better. One Typhoon with the double-Krak missiles wouldn't go amiss either, provided you sit it at the back and snipe from cover.

Also: Your Librarian is not going to reliably get powers off. Eldrad will make you take all psychic tests on 3D6, and you get perils on anything over 12 (as well as the increased chance of double ones). Consider a cheap Captain or Chaplain with a 'Fist instead.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Even though more Eldar savvy people have already chipped in I though I would give you my two cents.

Firstly most Eldar vehicles, or walkers are either going to turbo boast or be in cover. So being able to crank out masses of decent Anti tank fire is preferable to just having a few super weapons like laz cannons. Also as has already be stated dropping the model buffing the avatar is key, however if its Elderad, then good luck trying to kill him with instant gib weapons. Still the most aggravating part of this build is the fact that every anti-tank gun that gets wasted trying to kill the avatar or Elderad is one less weapon you have to try, and get through turbo boasting tanks 4+ save.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

The libby is a good bet though. Odds are he's going to stop a fortune on either the seer council or the avatar. then if he gets null zone off one of those 2 is utterly screwed by any sort of firepower which ignores their armor. If you can pack in flexible long range firepower in the form of predators or Typhoon Speeders then you can sit back and pour missiles into whichever one is the vulnerable target. 

The libby dosn't need toge them off every turn just 1 turn of null zoning an unfortunes seer council will should result in them gettign picked apart.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Drizzt read my mind on the lib. He's not really for his powers, more the debuff from the hood, and possibly a null zone.

If the raider is going down to the dragons then the termies can disembark and go for the falcon, whilst the libby ties up the dragons and prevents them from melting my boys.

Sethis, you're dead right on the dread, too much of a risk. I'll drop that and one landspeeder and see what I can do instead.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you're using the Libby as a "dispeller" instead of a "caster" then consider simply giving him one power instead of two. More points to spend elsewhere! 

And it's far from guaranteed that the Dragons will take down the Raider, if you deploy on your back line, even if he turbos then he's not going to arrive until turn 2, and you have all of turn 1 to pour firepower into it. Even with a 4+ save, you should be able to take it out with 2x TL Lascannon and 4x Missile Launchers.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Both powers are freebies, so I might as well take gate in case I need to shift my termies quick for any reason.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Not seeing any transports. So maybe Force dome to deflect that prism? If not, use that cover!

Simply put, look at where he sets up his wraithlords and set up as far away from them as you can. That why they spend more time walking. Null zone the avatar and a couple of turns or missiles will sort him out 

As for the seer council, just pummel them with bolters. It's all you can really do without wasting high damage weapons on them.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Was trading off transport protection for firepower, however... initial cover would be good, and when the killy unit gets closer, an inpromptu wall of 3 rhino's for them to get around probably wouldn't go amiss. 
This would mean dropping one of the tac squads to pay for rhino's, but would allow some extra lascannons.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

OK, another attempt:

1 librarian, Null Zone, Gate, meltabombs
10 man tac, meltagun, ML, power fist
10 man tac, meltagun, ML, power fist
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist
10 man tac, flamer, ML, power fist
5 man Terminator Assault, TH/SS, LR
5 man dev, 2x lascannon, 2x ML, 
1 landspeeder typhoon
5 man Assault, power fist


You can see what I've done here, so no need for explanations. No rhino's, but he does not have much firepower. I'm assuming that he'll send the bladestorming avengers after the dev squad which might be an argument for hiding the lascannons in the tac squads instead.

In total this list pumps out 8 kraks, and 4 lascannon shots per turn. Been fiddling around with the new combat calculator, and it gives 2.37 unsaved penetrating hits on a falcon, or 4.7 wounds on a wraithlord per turn, as long as all fire is focused. Pretty good odds.

Any improvements? Should I drop a tac in favour of rhino's and a sniper scout squad with ML?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Only problem I havn't seen tackled is what if Eldrad cast Mind War and melted the Lib's head and powerfists.


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Not a lot I can do to guard against mind war. I have a psychic hood, but if that doesn't stop it then there's no other option but to just suck it up.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Fortuned Avatar isn't even a decent tactic. Is the Farseer by himself? And he DOESN'T have Fortune cast on him? Hit him with 2 Krak missiles and watch him die. Suddenly the Avatar has no psychic support and dies to rapid-firing boltguns. If the Farseer is in a unit, just hit the unit with Heavy Bolters and Blast weapons and it'll die rather easily.
> 
> Or just feed the Avatar a tactical squad and laugh as he wastes 2-3 turns killing it.


Avatar can break a space marine squad pretty easily, and then just run them down. Certainly not a guarantee, but a big possibility.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

Arkanor said:


> Avatar can break a space marine squad pretty easily, and then just run them down. Certainly not a guarantee, but a big possibility.


Marines don't get run down, they're special. Infact they will try and break when their turn is coming up so they can shoot, if they get caught oh well it's just a few armor saves.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The other thing to bear in mind, especially in capture missions is the turbo boost ability of bikers. A 3+ cover save across multiple will be hard to shift.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Drizzt_13 said:


> Marines don't get run down, they're special. Infact they will try and break when their turn is coming up so they can shoot, if they get caught oh well it's just a few armor saves.


If they get away (admittedly not super easy), they're retreating, and need to be able to regroup, which they won't if the big guy is tagging along until they run off the board or something else comes along to escort them off.

If they stay stuck in, those saves add up and the avatar can chew through marines fairly quickly compared to the walkers, he's done his job (disruption) by this point at any rate.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

Arkanor said:


> If they get away (admittedly not super easy), they're retreating, and need to be able to regroup, which they won't if the big guy is tagging along until they run off the board or something else comes along to escort them off.
> 
> If they stay stuck in, those saves add up and the avatar can chew through marines fairly quickly compared to the walkers, he's done his job (disruption) by this point at any rate.


I'd rather have them breaking so I can shoot him then being un broken but locked in combat. You're right in that it dosen't change a lot in the way they are used I was just pointing out that marines don't get run down and he has a chance of escaping to shoot you another day.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Only problem expecting the avatar not catching the marines is that it starts with a higher initiative so it stands a greater chance of catching them.


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Well, start off with a drop pod full of sternguard using wound on 2+ ammo to force lots of saves. Add that librarian (or even a DH/WH Inq lord, I'd go with WH against Eldar) for a chance to block Fortune. If you take the WH Inq Lord, there's a wargear item or two taht negatively affect psykers, add those onto him while taking some penitents in the retinue fora 2+ to block psychic powers cast at the Inq/retinue. 

Me, I play IG so I just shoot it a lot, last time one actually reached me it was down to one wound and my IG killed it in hth..................


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

OK dudes, the battle is tommorrow. I'll let you know the outcome.
As a thanks for all the help, +rep all round!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

One thing you could consider last minute is swapping the Typhoon out for an assault cannon. So long as you can keep the Typhoon in the air 4 str6 shots + 3 str5 shots will be an absolute nightmare for the Seer council.

Yes, do let us know how you fair, then we can all learn from it and piece together something that will beat that list!


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## jpunk (Feb 8, 2009)

Right, brief battle report.

First off, we were unexpectedly limited to 1500 points and no SC's, so he dropped Eldrad, his seer council and one of his wraithlords in favour of a kitted out warlock in a serpent. I dropped the terminators, LR and 1 tac squad (I can hear your howls of anguish already) in favour of rhino's, a whirlwind, a sniper scout squad, and a vindicator. 

We played spearhead and capture and control, I chose table quarters and set up first, and gave him a quarter with almost no cover on it. In fear for his very life he refused to face me in a head on firefight and reserved his whole army, for which I berated him for cowardice.

I rushed three rhino's with combat squads forward and took his objective turn two, and maneouvered my gunline into favourable positions. It was here that he pulled a typically sneaky eldar move, and deployed on my end of his long board edge. Should have seen it coming.

The avatar charged directly into my scout unit, and got stuck there for three turns! Those scouts would have got promotions if they lived. Basically, the game was me rushing to redeploy whilst he started rolling me up from the back. 

Turn 5 came round and I was firmly in control of both objectives. He blew up the bunker that my objective was in and contested it whilst I fell back and prepared to consolidate. His Avatar, denied a clear path to my objective by the cunning placement of a rhino and de-weaponed vindicator, starting the long slog up the board to his own objective supported by the jetbikes.

Turn 6 saw me wipe out the jetbikes, and make a push back to contest my objective, whilst my three combat squads readied themselves for a seriously pissed off avatar.

Turn 7, and a combined charge from his last 2 fire dragons and a wraithlord with 1 
wound left just got enough wounds to wipe out the squad contesting my objective, whilst the avatar used his consolidation move to contest his own objective giving him the win.

Overall, the game was probably the best I have played in a long, long time. We are very long term opponents, and it was a pleasure to fight him in such an unexpectedly themed way. The game was a genuine sneaky eldar ambush onto my left flank, and it didn't really matter who won in the end as it was so much fun to play. 
He has asked for a rematch, but in a pitched battle setting, so I will finally get to bring my big guns to bear on his conniving space elves, and exact the emperors holy retribution.


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