# Land Raider Achilles



## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

There may be a thread on here about this particular variant but I didn't see it. What I am curious about is why everyone on the other forums seem to have issue with it? The biggest complaints seem to be coming from Eldar because of the Lance immunity but they have D-cannons, Wraithlords, Avatars, and Fire Prisms to compensate... where is the imbalance there?

I realize that you can math hammer it out but games rarely play with just one model sitting and shooting at one model, or maybe we just use better tactics where I play?


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## Snozz (Nov 16, 2010)

It's pretty fucking hard to kill for it's points, but it only has one structure point, can't carry much and as far as I know wouldn't be fielded outside of Apocalypse games (I don't know about everyone else, but for us you play with your codex in most games, Apoc is where Forgeworld rules and of course the Apoc rules are allowed to be used), where there bigger threats to tanks than Melta Guns and Lance weapons. I for one think it's pretty damn awesome, and would happily buy one if it weren't for being skint . Still, might have a stab at kitbashing one with a ton of Plasticard and that Land Raider I have lying around, once I actually finish my 1750 army.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Emperors Knights said:


> There may be a thread on here about this particular variant but I didn't see it. What I am curious about is why everyone on the other forums seem to have issue with it? The biggest complaints seem to be coming from Eldar because of the Lance immunity but they have D-cannons, Wraithlords, Avatars, and Fire Prisms to compensate... where is the imbalance there?


Only one of which people reliably take in competitive armies (Prism) and another (Wraithlord) which is never going to be able to reach the Raider, since it can drive (and shoot with Machine spirit) faster than it can run.

Oh, and you need 2x Prisms in order to gain a S10 AP1 shot, otherwise it's just an extremely overpriced Lascannon.

The reason why people hate it (I assume) is that 90% of armies use melta guns for their anti-tank rather than Lascannons. Melta guns glance it on 6s. Period.

Giving your MBT melta/ordnance immunity for 50pts is pretty damn strong. Only problem is the loss of transport capacity really. It can still contest an objective while giving the finger to the infantry squad it just drove through just fine.


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## angelXD19 (Feb 11, 2010)

sethis nailed it on the head


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

So really the issue is people have to add more to their lists which probably causes new sales for GW and FW... But otherwise it's a 300 point monster... It just seems that it is still as vulnerable as most monsterous creatures but you don't get special weapon rules against it... Yet it cost much more and has no invulnerable save like demon princes, avatars, deceivers, etc...

The best weapon in the SM codex shoots 24 inches, after that we get no special boost and most of our weapons crap out at 48" or less... We finally get our MC equivalent and everyone complains it is too hard to kill... It's a Land Raider!! It is supposed to be hard to kill. I was pissed when I found the lance weapons nullified my 250 point transport and now I have to pay an extra 50 just to have your weapons as effective as my melta and missle launchers and power fists and Thunder Hammers... 

I'm sorry but unless SM gets a primarch who can truly go toe to toe with an avatar it makes no sense to argue this is too tough to fight against... Unless you are running close with a bunch of transports this really only has one weapon, stay outside of 24 and it's not scary, don't eldar vehicles have special rules negating the extra dice on melta weapons on the front and sides? 

Just ignore it and know I spent 300 on a thunder fire cannon and a bunker with a multimelta.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Emperors Knights said:


> So really the issue is people have to add more to their lists which probably causes new sales for GW and FW... But otherwise it's a 300 point monster... It just seems that it is still as vulnerable as most monsterous creatures but you don't get special weapon rules against it... Yet it cost much more and has no invulnerable save like demon princes, avatars, deceivers, etc...
> 
> Why compare a vehicle to a monstrous creature? For the most part different weapons are used to take down the two; melta/str9-10/lance for land raiders and plasma/missiles for monstrous creatures. Not to mention the fact that monstrous creatures have more often than not 3+ armor saves. The issue is also not that people have to add more to their lists. The issue is that you have tailor your list to specifically beat this thing. Eldar for example rely more on lances and the like to take down armor, yet that is all nullified by this thing. Another example would be SM who rely more on melta to take down AV14, but knowing they may come up against this it forces the player to take vindis or other str 10 weapons that may not be incorporated in a balanced list.
> 
> ...


My problem with it is that this vehicle can pretty much fill any role and excel at it while being extremely hard to take down with a balanced list. It is simply the best objective camper out there, yes paying 300 points to hold an objective for the entire game is definitely worth it. It also is vicious in close range fights due to PotMS, immunity to melta, and the two multi meltas. I think if they removed the -1 on the vehicle damage chart, or removed its transport capacity it would be valued at 300 fairly. As is though I would definitely price it higher.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

So let me get this straight, the LRA removes the effects of Lance and Melta (the weapons designed to kill it), has PoTMS, Extra Armour, 2 Multi-Meltas, all for 300 pts and a reduced transport capacity? Oh, and don't forget its magic -1 on the damage chart, just because.

Yeah, i'm calling BS on that one.

The time i see a SM combat squad rolling towards me in a Super-Monolith armed with twin multi-meltas (one of which it can ALWAYS fire) is the time i pack up my shit and leave.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> So let me get this straight, the LRA removes the effects of Lance and Melta (the weapons designed to kill it), has PoTMS, Extra Armour, 2 Multi-Meltas, all for 300 pts and a reduced transport capacity? Oh, and don't forget its magic -1 on the damage chart, just because.
> 
> Yeah, i'm calling BS on that one.
> 
> The time i see a SM combat squad rolling towards me in a Super-Monolith armed with twin multi-meltas (one of which it can ALWAYS fire) is the time i pack up my shit and leave.


Just for the record, it says he plays space wolves, so if he is packing up his shit and leaving, you know its serious.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

TWC with hammers. Boom, done. But yeah, melta spam is about as effective as throwing dog crap at it. However, razorspam should still do away with it moderately well.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

My regular group have a lot of FW models and use them a lot, even in regular 40K games, but this is a bit over the top even for FW. A mate of mine rang FW yesterday about how crazily resilient the Achilles is, and they replied back saying that it will be changed somewhat in the printed IA10, maybe major changes.

They've had quite a few calls about the Achilles apparently...FW actually listen as well, unlike the parent company.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Just for the record, it says he plays space wolves, so if he is packing up his shit and leaving, you know its serious.


Wolves are mostly my joke army. I don't play anything resembling a competitive list with them. My tactics boil down to "Drop Pods AAAAWOOO!!!!!".

My srs bizness armies are CSM and Daemons.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I love the thing, but it is definitely too tough.
Railguns are just about the only thing that have any fucking hope against them.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I woul go for the throw enough lascannons at it in the hope it can either:

A) be immobilized

or

B) Knock enough weapons off

I think the only altercation to make is either allow AP1 to work on it or remove the -1 from damage table.


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

So dirty lists...

HQ	Librarian - Null Zone	
Troops 5 Tactical Marines	
Troops 5 Tactical Marines	
Elites	8 assault Terminators with thunderhammer and storm shield
Heavy Support	Land Raider Achillies	
Heavy Support	Land Raider Achillies	
Heavy Support	Land Raider Achillies	
- 1500 points

something like this...?

~O


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

although swapping out 2 termies to give a tank chronos and then spending 10 points on gear for the libby is tempting. And of course remembering that the null zone is measured from the raider's hull if he's on board...

Proxy at gamesnight methinks, will let you know how unkillable they are

~O


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I think the only altercation to make is either allow AP1 to work on it or remove the -1 from damage table.


Um, AP1 DOES work on it, it just negates the -1 that you normally get, meaning you've effectively got a normal hit.


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

the AP1 isn't part of the melta effect so it would still effect it. So therefore against any S8 melta weapons it can be imobilised to death at best while lances are even worse off with trying to 'weapon destroyed' it into oblivion, good reason to take an extra storm bolter if one can...

~O


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Put it this way:

A lascannon needs to hit, roll a 6 to penetrate, and then a 6 to destroy it. That's a 1-in-36 chance of a hit actually destroying the vehicle.

So, you need 9 Lascannons from a BS4 army in order to cause 6 hits per turn. That means on average, if you shoot 9 Lascannons every turn at a single Land Raider Achilles, you will destroy it by the end of the game.

Assuming that it is never in cover.

Or that your lascannons get never get destroyed/attacked/moved.

Oh, and then he has potentially two more of them, each of which is claiming/contesting an objective.

As far as I know, the only army to spam Lascannon to that measure in an all-comers list is Air-Cav Guard.

So for all-comers lists unless you're Tau, Mechdar with 2x Prisms or Lash with 2x Vindicators, you're pretty screwed.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

"Oh no, current tactics don't work against a new model, wah wah wah, what am I going to do? wah, wah, wah."

Didn't we have this with 3++ Storm Shield Assault Terminators, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Jaws of the World Wolf?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Vaz said:


> "Oh no, current tactics don't work against a new model, wah wah wah, what am I going to do? wah, wah, wah."
> 
> Didn't we have this with 3++ Storm Shield Assault Terminators, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Jaws of the World Wolf?


None of those are as obscenely unkillable as the Achilles.
Forge World have admitted that it needs very much to be toned down.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

And devastating? 

It's weaponry is fairly naughty - but there's not much damage it can do that a normal Land Raider or variant can't.

it's reduced capacity and without an assault ramp as well means that it's not going to be throwing SS Terminators around with the same near impunity they have. Multi-melta sponson's are short ranged - and have a limited arc of fire, neither can it take a pintle melta, so it's rear arc is under severe threat from armoured attack.

Add in with something to shoot from just outside the front 45 degree's and you stand a decent chance of withstanding.

The templates to the front arc are naughty - I'll give it that. But a monstrous creature or walker (especially, including the Chainfist Ironclad) in the frontor rear has a decent chance of surviving.

Not to mention that at 300pts, not Codex, and nearly £70 after postage and packaging, it's not going to exactly be every man and his dogs choice.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

i love it.........if i could take it. Seriously i curently run a Landraider list with 3 of the buggers and with just a little jiggering aobut i could take this as well....but i'm Blood angles and they can't take it. This really annoyed me and only my Imperial fists can now take it and my Heavy support for them is contested enough as it is with Dev's and Vindicators let alone an Achillies. I MIGHT get it for Apocalyse games but i'm a logn way away from playing a propper apocalypse game (i don't evne have the rule book yet)


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## zas240 (Apr 3, 2009)

Woah...Just seen the rules for that beauty...quick question, can it be used in regular games?

edit: way to make it even more indestructible, stick a techmarine near/in it with servitors to repair all the weapon destroyed and imobilised to help with the "BLAST IT WITH GLANCING HITS" tactic...would also give it a 4+ save


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

I think the minus-1 is a bit much but the immunity to lance/melta is fine (and should be standard fit on all LR's imo). It is probably under-costed though. I would pay 350pts for it tbh. I feel sorry for the Land Raider. There is such a stupid amount of lances, melta and mc's these days that av14 is quite irrelevant. I stopped using them ages ago (before I picked up Space Wolves) because they got destroyed far to easy.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

i dont think it can be used in regular games. Which is what will save most of us from it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Its not codex, so I'd generally not advise taking it for a pick up and play army.

If so, I'd make two lists, counting it as a Redeemer in one game, and if permission is given, an Achilles in the next.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I have no problem with them, after all its designed for appoc. That, and my warhound never seems to have trouble killing one in 1/2 a turn of shooting.


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

These arguments are so goofy. Again I think the concept is that SM has something that is as indestructible as most other xeno species have with monstrous creatures. Do I have a competitive list to take on an Avatar and 2 Wraithlords during every tournament? No, because chances are good that I won't face that consistently. Do I have to face down 3 carnifex's or a combination of Swarmlords and fex's every list? Well that seems more reasonable but still I know that those are not the scariest thing on the board. I also am under the impression I'm not going to fight 3 demon princes plus the warsmith every game so my list tries to balance what is it that is the biggest priority and the biggest threat? 

This whole guaranteed objective statements just doesn't hold water. First in a capture and control mission then you can simply contest him and hold your point and you win... he has 300+ unit cost tied up in one area... an orc mob on bikes would never even stress it unless you simply had no other tactic. Eldar are famous for their 36" boost on turn 5 to contest and winning the match... nids with the mawlock can simply deep strike on an objective last round, dark eldar have speeds similar to eldar... guard can do something similar with their fast vehicle, and space marines can deep strike, drop pod, fast vehicle, etc... where is the issue? Oh, but what about the objective games? Good question, how about you use the same tactic but know in a match with at least 3 objectives you know he's spent a good portion to hold one.... 

Lastly, annihilation... this should be the match everyone is excited about with the Achilles. Your opponent has literally spent 300 on a tank that can shoot the length of the board 4 shots per turn... other than that he's doing nothing, and virtually none of the shots (strength 6 has a chance) will do much to most vehicles... even raiders require a 5+ to penetrate! Couple that with being a fast vehicle and you should really just not worry. You manage to crack the Achilles with the numerous options you have (you do have other AT aside from Lance and Melta) then the squad inside is small, not terminators (except those dirty space wolves!), and will probably die relatively quickly for at least two kill points, possibly 3. 

Quit complaining about why it is to tough to beat and change your tactic. You'd think people playing a fantasy game based in the 41st century would be willing to think outside the box...


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

zas240 said:


> Woah...Just seen the rules for that beauty...quick question, can it be used in regular games?
> 
> edit: way to make it even more indestructible, stick a techmarine near/in it with servitors to repair all the weapon destroyed and imobilised to help with the "BLAST IT WITH GLANCING HITS" tactic...would also give it a 4+ save


being non-codex and forge wolrd you need your oppoents/tormiment (i can never spell that word right) orginaisewrs permision before you use it but it can be used by all Marines except Blood Angles (since there Landraiders are Dedicated transports only) and Chaos (becuase GW can't give chaos the shaft enough)


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> except Blood Angles (since there Landraiders are Dedicated transports only)


:shok:
Holy crap, I never realised they were ONLY DTs!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Blood Angels have Storm Ravens in their Heavy Support slot instead, Or I guess you could take a Devastator squad and give them a Raidier if you felt like.


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## Kiama (Oct 28, 2009)

I just read the rules on the tank and just sighed. Once more, SMs continue to get better and better and better. Damn right this thing better get a nerf! Apoc. or not!

Also, as it has been stated, with Eldar you'll almost never see a Avatar on the field save rare moments, and even if that or a wraithlord WAS there, they wouldnt be able to even get up to that thing fast enough without being shot to hell from tons of fire. Those saves are gonna fail eventually with enough fire.


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

*Eldar/schmeldar*



Kiama said:


> I just read the rules on the tank and just sighed. Once more, SMs continue to get better and better and better. Damn right this thing better get a nerf! Apoc. or not!
> 
> Also, as it has been stated, with Eldar you'll almost never see a Avatar on the field save rare moments, and even if that or a wraithlord WAS there, they wouldnt be able to even get up to that thing fast enough without being shot to hell from tons of fire. Those saves are gonna fail eventually with enough fire.


I might have built a rather stupid army for my girlfriend, but I put two wraithlords, an avatar, and three D-cannon's in it... So I don't see her as having an issue with the Achilles.... Perhaps that's not a successful set up though. Haven't had a chance to field it (still painting)


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

The new newsletter is out...no amendment of the rules in there...

-O


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Oldenhaller said:


> The new newsletter is out...no amendment of the rules in there...
> 
> -O


Here's a theory, just throwing it out there, so, you know.

Maybe they don't want to release them for free, maybe they'd rather release the finished rules in the book.


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

aye, true...but then how much have the rules for many things changed between thier playtest rules being released and the book coming out. And this close to when it's being released I don't really see that much of an amendment being made.

-O


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Oldenhaller said:


> aye, true...but then how much have the rules for many things changed between thier playtest rules being released and the book coming out. And this close to when it's being released I don't really see that much of an amendment being made.
> 
> -O


Maybe they've never gotten something so horribly, horribly wrong


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

lol....from a marine stand point, I'm curiously happy :victory:


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## UltraRich (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi folks -

I bought one. Just liked the look of a big Thunderfire Cannon on the front. I'm sure it will die just like everything else but it's going to be a lot of fun first. Like the idea of a terminator transport.

Anyone want to see pictures?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

UltraRich said:


> Hi folks -
> 
> I bought one. Just liked the look of a big Thunderfire Cannon on the front. I'm sure it will die just like everything else but it's going to be a lot of fun first. Like the idea of a terminator transport.
> 
> Anyone want to see pictures?


Well the point of the Achilles is that it DOESN'T die!
Sure, pictures away!


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Ahem.

People who say this is hard to crack obviously don't play guard.

Strength 10 AP 1 2d6 Armor pen Medusa artillery tanks? I eat Achilles for breakfast.


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## RIVALBLACKWELL (Dec 13, 2010)

After hearing how much it sucks then I hav to buy it...


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## UltraRich (Sep 15, 2010)

Unpainted bits for now. Hopefully have it painted in a few days 

All the resin bits http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269162167/in/set-72157625619505638/

Nice gun
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269149011/in/set-72157625619505638/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269158921/in/set-72157625619505638/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269768662/in/set-72157625619505638/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269159985/in/set-72157625619505638/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269769754/in/set-72157625619505638/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrarich/5269770218/in/set-72157625619505638/

Hmm. Was trying to post thumbnails. Guess I didn't try hard enough. Next time maybe...


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Scathainn said:


> Ahem.
> 
> People who say this is hard to crack obviously don't play guard.
> 
> Strength 10 AP 1 2d6 Armor pen Medusa artillery tanks? I eat Achilles for breakfast.


Well, sure. Guard and Tau can rape the damn thing through it's pants. Other armies have nothing that isn't OMFGAWEFULL to use to deal with it. Eldar get.. haywire grenades, D-Cannons and Wraithlords/Guard. All of which are awful. They can suppress with Vibros. Which are also... awful. DE get... not fucking much. Haywire blasters will suppress it, and I suppose they have *one* source of s9 firepower.

That's why it's such a shit piece of design work. There's no semblance in terms of balance when it comes to who you're fighting to. Except, hey, superheavies. Woo. I guess they want to make sure everyone who plays apoc loads up on the even nastier tanks, just in case.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

jaws900 said:


> being non-codex and forge wolrd you need your oppoents/tormiment (i can never spell that word right) orginaisewrs permision before you use it but it can be used by all Marines except Blood Angles (since there Landraiders are Dedicated transports only) and Chaos (becuase GW can't give chaos the shaft enough)


So which word can you never spell right?

Opponents
Tournament
Organisers
Permission
AngELs
because

Please get a spell checker plugin for your browser. It will make your posts easier to read. Even IE supports one now.

Apart from being hatfull-of-arseholes ugly (seems to be the case from much of the newer FW stuff), the rules seem OT even for FW. 
They often alter rules between original 'experimental' release and book publication. Even if the changes are only minor. This happened with both IAvol 1 and 2 also (between the CJ entries and the IA softcovers and IA vol1-2).

It's called an 'Achilles'. Where is its heel? It's weakness?
Do we need to wait for the DE Raider 'Paris'?
Armed with a S10 AP1 Heavy20 gun?


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm pretty sure jaws900 mentioned at some point that he's legitimately dyslexic...


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Scathainn said:


> I'm pretty sure jaws900 mentioned at some point that he's legitimately dyslexic...


Dyslexia is fine for a few minor mistakes, especially with uncommon, or 40k specific words, but to use it as an excuse to not bother fixing the words that are underlined in red when writing the post seems is wrong, as the tool to overcome the problem is present and very easy to use. 

I don't mean this as an attack, so much as to say that it is one thing to ask for some patience with minor errors, but when the errors are not related to a disability, but an unwillingness to edit one's own posts before posting, it looks like the poster fails to respect those that will read what is written.

As for the Achilles, I think that it is pretty awesome, even though I will not get to use it, as I don't play any of the armies that get it. As for dealing with it, it costs a lot of points and is very specialized, kill everything else and it is just a matter of minimizing what it can hit, same as any other land raider.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Scathainn said:


> I'm pretty sure jaws900 mentioned at some point that he's legitimately dyslexic...


Doesn't make it an excuse.
My wife has dyslexia. She doesn't use it as an excuse to NOT use the spell check though.

I've also known several other people with the condition. One of whom became an established games writer. So legible posts on internet fora are hardly out of the question.


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## RIVALBLACKWELL (Dec 13, 2010)

Jaws? Jaws!? Jaws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111122222222222222222222


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

chromedog said:


> S
> 
> Apart from being hatfull-of-arseholes ugly (seems to be the case from much of the newer FW stuff), the rules seem OT even for FW.
> They often alter rules between original 'experimental' release and book publication. Even if the changes are only minor. This happened with both IAvol 1 and 2 also (between the CJ entries and the IA softcovers and IA vol1-2).


The FW website now has the rules listed as an official excerpt from IA10, and the PDF is now made to look like a rulebook list entry rather than having the word "experiment" splashed over it. Them's its rules.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Scathainn had it right. This CAN be dealt with. As soon as something new comes out, everybody checks to see if their army can quickly take it down. If their current list can't, or if their army can't currently deal with it, its immediately "broken".

I've faced Guard tank lines, Tau fire walls, Tyranid genestealer swarms, and had many many HQ's and Terminators lost to a Rune Priest duet with JotWW. They are all armies my list has trouble handling sometimes. I die. It happens. They aren't broken and neither is this tank. Is it hard to kill? Absolutely, in regular 40k.....but HARK! its not meant for regular 40k! Its meant for apocalypse, a game where giant ass Titans are beating the crap outta you and Medusa guns run in the squadrons......NOTHING is more...not fun....than facing ALL that just to have your Land Raider Crusader, carrying your full capacity Term assault squad, get blown up by a well placed Lance or Melta blast. THEN getting unlucky and losing half your termies to terrible rolling. Like someone said, its expensive, hard to build, has little to no transport capacity AND costs 300+pts. Not everyone is going to play one, like maybe say BLOOD ANGELS >.< If you end up facing one consistently..... either don't play against said person if you can't handle losing....OR build a list that can handle it.......everyone can.:shout:

IMO


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

UltraRich said:


> Hi folks -
> 
> I bought one. Just liked the look of a big Thunderfire Cannon on the front. I'm sure it will die just like everything else but it's going to be a lot of fun first. Like the idea of a terminator transport.
> 
> Anyone want to see pictures?


Unless you're playing SW terminators are finding another ride.... Besides this isn't an assault vehicle and is designed to set back and hammer from a distance. Hurrah on Space Marines having a vehicle that can shoot over 48"! (don't point out HK missile we all know that's about useless)


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## Emperors Knights (May 21, 2010)

LordofFenris said:


> Scathainn had it right. This CAN be dealt with. As soon as something new comes out, everybody checks to see if their army can quickly take it down. If their current list can't, or if their army can't currently deal with it, its immediately "broken".
> 
> I've faced Guard tank lines, Tau fire walls, Tyranid genestealer swarms, and had many many HQ's and Terminators lost to a Rune Priest duet with JotWW. They are all armies my list has trouble handling sometimes. I die. It happens. They aren't broken and neither is this tank. Is it hard to kill? Absolutely, in regular 40k.....but HARK! its not meant for regular 40k! Its meant for apocalypse, a game where giant ass Titans are beating the crap outta you and Medusa guns run in the squadrons......NOTHING is more...not fun....than facing ALL that just to have your Land Raider Crusader, carrying your full capacity Term assault squad, get blown up by a well placed Lance or Melta blast. THEN getting unlucky and losing half your termies to terrible rolling. Like someone said, its expensive, hard to build, has little to no transport capacity AND costs 300+pts. Not everyone is going to play one, like maybe say BLOOD ANGELS >.< If you end up facing one consistently..... either don't play against said person if you can't handle losing....OR build a list that can handle it.......everyone can.:shout:
> 
> IMO


Exactly, every army is capable of destroying this. Surprise, surprise GW puts out models that make people buy new stuff so they can stay in business! Also you have to consider that it is impractical for GW (forgeworld) to create models of the same stat line as now. As a company they have to realize that if they simply switch out the weapons there are only so many variants before it has no options (see Leman Russ line). Now they could drop another vehicle with the same stats but why would anyone switch from models they already own, thus in 40k (and fantasy) newer models will always be better than previous stuff. I expect that the lance spam armies get new anti-vehicle in the next codex through haywire missiles or something similar...


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