# Daemons are broken



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Apparently.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86894

Why is everything I'm reading there seperate from what I've experienced? Maybe I just run extremely effective counter daemon armies (I do run Warriors, High Evels, and Phalanx Wood Elves, mind), but I've never seen them be that effective.

Or are they a bunch of spoonheads without much going on between the ears?

As soon as I saw Dark Elves and Skaven classed ahead of High Elves, and Lizards, and Warriors, I expected buffoonery. Then I saw them being noted as being equal to Lizards, and Vampires, as well as being underpointed, and I nearly died from laughing so hard my lung collapsed.

Now; do I class this down as inbred retardedness, or am I missing something about Daemons?

Their benefits are pretty much cancelled out by every standard rule in the BRB. ITP? BSB. Unbreakableish? BSB/Steadfast. Magic? BSB Lores/Winds of Magic. The only one is the Ward Save. Colour me jewish, but a global 5+ Ward when you have no armour is something I sneeze at on overpriced core infantry with no leeway in tactics.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

There are some pretty nasty combos at the high level, especially with Fateweaver, but I'm not sure about how this ever makes them any better than other armies. Skaven deserve one of the highest spots, but Dark Elves are too fragile to ever place that high, they're high-tier, but not top-tier.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

it should be "they were broken in 7th ed" in the new ed there not that bad. But If you were wornding why they were broken. l have seen Daemon armies in the 7th ed having 17 power dice among other things. Sure even in 8th ed the can get carzy but because they can't have anymore then 12, ect ect.

edit: the other major example MoN guys had regen and in 7th from memory you chould use both Regen and Ward save. (can't in 8th ed)


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I think people are purely talking about Masque Builds which are really bent against some armies. Skaven hate it because they rely on being LD10 Steadfast, so getting gimped to LD 5-6 means they run away.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Vaz said:


> As soon as I saw Dark Elves and Skaven classed ahead of High Elves, and Lizards, and Warriors, I expected buffoonery. Then I saw them being noted as being equal to Lizards, and Vampires, as well as being underpointed, and I nearly died from laughing so hard my lung collapsed.


That's what I thought as well. Vampires as powerful as lizards? :rofl: 

They're top tier (Daemons, not Vamps), sure, but they're not the craziness they were in 7th.



Vaz said:


> Their benefits are pretty much cancelled out by every standard rule in the BRB. ITP? BSB. Unbreakableish? BSB/Steadfast. Magic? BSB Lores/Winds of Magic. The only one is the Ward Save. Colour me jewish, but a global 5+ Ward when you have no armour is something I sneeze at on overpriced core infantry with no leeway in tactics.


Not to mention that Bloodletters (the unit taking a lot of heat in this thread) are only T3... My Saurus are about as survivable (more, once you take into account a Slann), yet they're not broken.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm not sure whats going on, I would love to know what the hell happened here

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87160

VC
Daemon
Daemon
Daemon
Dark Elves
VC
Lizardmen
VC
Dark Elves
Skaven

As the top 10 0.o


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I'm surprised by that: daemons just dont seem that competetive anymore. What surprises me even more is the lack of 'gunline' armies up at the top of the list. I would have expected empire and dwarves to have done much better. Lots of cheap artillery can be devastating in the new rules.
An empire army has easy access to many cannon, mortars, handgunners and magic 
(plus the more varied warmachines). I don't see how many armies combat such potent ranged abilities, especially daemons. A cannon or 2 to the face should deal with any of the daemon lords in a turn or 2 and mortars are devastating against their core (expensive T3 5++ models normally used in large blocks...)

I had a look at the Colonial rules, expecting that they put some sort of limit on warmachines... and they didn't. Essentially the only differences are that Teclis, Fateweaver and Thoric are banned, and you can choose to use a couple of different FAQs if you wish. Although that seems to be an easy source of cheese for me since to use the ruling you must produce the FAQ, so the only reason to use negative rulings is if the opponent has a copy of your FAQ (while you can still produce your own for teh +vs rulings)... I really hope no-one was that rubbish, but expect many were.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I think the lack of Teclis probably really hurt High Elves intent on playing Teclis-hammer. But I have literally no idea what to make of results like that. 

http://www.rankingshq.com/public/tournamentprofile.aspx?TournamentId=1382

Here's a Sheffield tourney

Lizardmen
Warriors of Chaos
Beastmen
Vampire Counts
Vampire Counts
Warriors of Chaos
Daemons of Chaos
Skaven
Vampire Counts
Lizardmen

That's your top 10, Sheffield had a bunch of restrictions ,more than normal but I don't see how those lead to this. They did have Max 4 War Machines I guess. And Hilariously they felt the need to nerf Bretoinians by 0-1ing Trebuchets. 

I just don't have a good enough handle on Warhammer to say whats good and whats not I think.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Putting a max limit on war machines will dramatically shift the balance of power of the different armies. Obviously armies that rely on war machines will be nerfed, but I recon it'll also mean that many people choose anti-infantry machines over a mix... giving rise to greater use of monsters. Suddenly some of the old 7th ed lists start to look a little shinier, with dragon, greater daemons and monstrous beastmen looking much better.

It does throw some funny light on different meta's though. I watched a local tourny a few months ago which was dominated by war machines. Half the players there were empire with a few dwarves and skaven following suit. I almost had to cry as I saw an ogre army try to attack one empire army... sheer carnage.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Cannon's still see regular use though - the ability to kill a rank of each turn in the 2-3 turns it takes to move to distance against a shooty army. The 100pts it costs when you're killing either 30pts of models a turn (or as much as 120 as with Ogres) really does even out.

I don't know if it's local meta (with Ogres, Trolls, Treekin, and Minotaurs being very popular choices), but there's rarely a game against Empire, Dwarves, or even the Druchii/Asur that I'll not find a multi-wounding war machine.

Keeper of Secrets - a Movement 10 ASF high attack Soulthirster is nice. Sure, who wouldn't want that? Me, when you've got 2-3 Cannons facing it for 2 Turns.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

VC's appearing to do so well has me utterly miffed?!:dunno: It honestly looks more like those tournaments are still in the mindset of 7th ed to me...
My local meta has seen VC's all but nerfed to level's of un-playability due to the spaming of 'uber 'kill outright right' mega spells, 1st turn power scrolling, teclis, gunlining & war machine spam, skaven power-builds, slaans, etc...

I think the recent 'ard boyz round 1 showed up the new power scale pretty well, as it seemed like mainly skaven, high elves, lizzies & warriors wrecking face, with a decent showing by flamer-heavy daemons, dark elves, empire & dwarf gunlines and such.
I only recall seeing about a half dozen VC armies making the cut, which goes to show just how gimped the 7th ed undead are.

Sure daemons still have some pretty broken shit; flamers, kairos, flamers, the masque, Life Tzherals, flamers... But there's nothing akin to the brokeness of 7th ed.

People need to get 7th ed out of their heads and thinking those same tactics still work!


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