# Would all 18 primarchs pose a threat to the Emperor?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

One Horus with all four Chaos Gods pumping him full of power was enough to challenge the Emperor (yes, I'm aware the Emperor might've held back out of love but Horus still managed to hurt him grievously). 

Could all 18 *pre-Heresy* primarchs give the Big E a run for his money. Do you think that uncorrupted primarchs would have a very hard time attempting to hurt their father (sort of like how uncorrupted Astartes generally find it very hard not to obey primarchs)?


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Hmmm they are clones of him or there abouts. I think they might give him a run for his money


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## Lord Hell (Aug 6, 2012)

It mostly depends on who the Primarch is. 

I am 100% postive that Angron(Loyal) would have no problem attacking the Emperor if he pissed him off. And contrast to Logar(Loyal) who probably would have killed himself before attacking the Emperor.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't know if we can really answer this. We've seen many of the Primarchs fight, seen them do physical feats (didn't Vulkan flip over a Predator tank?), and seen what sort of punishment they can take. Of the Emperor, however, we haven't really seen him in action. And not in any real detail.

There are too many blanks. All 18 of them may walk over him or the Emperor could crush them in an instant.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

If one very big Ork almost choked the Emperor, meaning he had to be saved by Horus (I think) then I would say that all 18 Primarchs would have kicked his butt.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> If one very big Ork almost choked the Emperor, meaning he had to be saved by Horus (I think) then I would say that all 18 Primarchs would have kicked his butt.


The Ork is never specified as *choking* the Emperor, but rather "struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him".

I could struggle to lift the Earth over my head. Doesn't necessarily mean I would succeed. (For the record, I would.)

I'm thinking there was either 1. Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet) 2. Used it as a way to deepen the bond between him and Horus. Or even as means for Horus to repay the Emperor for saving Horus's life during the Reillis city ambush.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

hailene said:


> The Ork is never specified as *choking* the Emperor, but rather "struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him".
> 
> I could struggle to lift the Earth over my head. Doesn't necessarily mean I would succeed. (For the record, I would.)
> 
> I'm thinking there was either 1. Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet) 2. Used it as a way to deepen the bond between him and Horus. Or even as means for Horus to repay the Emperor for saving Horus's life during the Reillis city ambush.


That's reading way more into it than I did, to me 'struggling to choke' and 'saved by Horus' was enough for me to draw the conclusion I did. But if you think otherwise then that's down to you.


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

I'd say they could definitely give him a run for his money- one on one tournament-style (assuming no Chaos involvement) I'd say the Emperor would lay down some pain. 18-on-1 might be pushing it for even the Emperor, seeing as the Primarchs themselves were supposedly second only to him individually. As a whole mob (can you imagine the point cost of _that_ squad?) they might have the oomph to take him on. 

Then again, it's mentioned that the Emperor was holding back throughout his entire duel with Horus, and rather quickly wasted him when he stopped handicapping himself. Maybe the Emperor could pull it off, but against all 18, I doubt it.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Some extraneous circumstance we're unaware of (say, the Emperor had to wield his psychic might to deaden the ability of the 50,000 weirdboyz on the planet)


I'm thinking the Ork who "struggled to choke" the Emp was the Ork equivalent of Chaos-empowered Horus, i.e. all 50,000 (or whatnot) Weird Boyz on the planet were channeling WAAAGH! energy into this one big Warboss


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

All 18 at once? I'm giving it to the Primarchs. It's just too much for even the emperor to take on. with Magnus to occupy his psychically, or at least blunt some of his force, that's 17 others to get in there physically. I don't think he could physically handle 17 Primarchs at once. 

Individually? He'd smack any of them around one on one if able to throw around his full power. 

Re the 'choked by an ork' story Forgeworld's Betrayal sheds more light on this. *(This is the second or third time i've had to explain this and it's a common talking point, could we get it added to the stickied FAQ? I'll happily provide an in depth explanation, cited and sourced if so.) *

Basically the event takes place on an ork world constructed out of scrap metal held together through dark age gravity tech. Think of an ork rok on a planetary scale. This world was noted for its inventive and powerful mekboys. Additionally you had nobs the size of dreadnoughts, so a warboss of these orks is going to be big. 

The Emperor and his Custodes spearhead a luna wolves attack on the world. During the fighting the emperor and the custodes are separated from the luna wolves and subjected to the full fury of thousands of these extraordinary orks. Temporarily overwhelm by the sheer weight of fire (i ascribe it to the emperors psychic shields temporarily overloading, much like a titan's void shields) a warboss manages to wrap its hands about the emperors neck.

Almost immediately Horus is there and he proceeds to chop the ork's arms off. There's no mention of the emperor being in mortal danger or that the ork was chocking the life out of him. After the battle the Emperor singlehandedly disables the gravity device and closes the resulting warp rift/black hole thing that shutting it off causes.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Why were those Orks of such incredible size? Were they drunk on WAAAGH! energy?


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## Calistrasza (Mar 11, 2013)

I think that given Orks' biology they might simply never stop growing- the reason we see tiny(comparatively) Orks today is because they generally die on battlefields rather than lord over entire Waaaaagh! Worlds. The more they fight, the bigger they get. And the rulers of an Ork planet would have to have fought quite a bit. 

Don't quote me on that, IDK if it's even close to the mark but it sounds like it could be.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> That's reading way more into it than I did, to me 'struggling to choke' and 'saved by Horus' was enough for me to draw the conclusion I did. But if you think otherwise then that's down to you.


As I said, something else could have been distracting or weakening the Emperor's power. He's the greatest psyker that humanity has (and perhaps beyond). I don't think an Ork would be able to choke him. Maybe the Ork was some sort of pariah?



Calistrasza said:


> can you imagine the point cost of that squad?


From Horus Heresy--Betrayal we know that Horus is 500 points, Angron is 400, Fulgrim is 380, and Mortarion is 425.

So I'd guess somewhere around 7500 points?



Rems said:


> Re the 'choked by an ork' story Forgeworld's Betrayal sheds more light on this.


I sat down and read the book in a single night. I missed out a whole lot (particularly all the new Legion units, dear God!) Could you toss me a bone and give me a page number? Seems like a lot of fluff nuggets are in the story.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Why were those Orks of such incredible size? Were they drunk on WAAAGH! energy?


I''d think I was likely Gravity rather than waagh voodoo, otherwise they would have to voodoo most orks on the planet 

Orks are products of their environment (nearly as much as nids), and like to test themselves to prove they "is the the strongest" 

If the gravity as stronger they would be required to grow more muscle mass in order to complete the same tasks. As a result they would grow stronger and larger 

Its the opposite of current space flight. in a zero G environment astronauts quickly lose muscle ass as they are not used as much and quickly lose bone mass as a dense skeleton is not needed to fight against gravity. 

Science Wins!


On topic the primarchs could win, the BIG could in 1 v 1 vs any but not all 18 (19 if you count Omegron). Well likely it would be 16 as Curze would just turn up to stab in the back, and Alpharius is planning something instead


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Barnster said:


> If the gravity as stronger they would be required to grow more muscle mass in order to complete the same tasks. As a result they would grow stronger and larger


Dragon Ball Z style


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

hailene said:


> I sat down and read the book in a single night. I missed out a whole lot (particularly all the new Legion units, dear God!) Could you toss me a bone and give me a page number? Seems like a lot of fluff nuggets are in the story.


Page 81, The Gorro Hollowing.

There's heaps of little fluff nuggets in the book, i highly recommend going back and rereading it in depth. You've got the construction of the Astronomicon, the first Black Ships and all sorts of lovely little bits. 

Having just reread that section i can supply some more detail to everyone else. Gorro was ruled by the mekboys, who had (invented or pirated) a new kind of more powerful plasma technology, unseen since. 

These orks, some not only larger than dreadnoughts were also bionically enhanced. Their weapons 'burned through power armour like a candle through parchment'. During the fighting the emperor was not only separated from the luna wolves but from the custodes themselves. 'Alone he slew hundreds until a blast from an ork plasma weapon opened his guard and one of the ork leaders seized him'. 'The tales say the ork's strength was so great that as it took hold of the Emperor it buckled his armour.'

So very advanced, very large, very dangerous orks. Note however that the emperor was not being chocked nor in mortal peril. 

@Monty

The higher the orkoid population the smarter and larger they get, the more advanced feats of technology they're capable of. This orkoid empire was near the size of Ullanor, with the added advantage of some relic dark age tech never seen before or since.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't know if we can really answer this. We've seen many of the Primarchs fight, seen them do physical feats (didn't Vulkan flip over a Predator tank?), and seen what sort of punishment they can take. Of the Emperor, however, we haven't really seen him in action. And not in any real detail.
> 
> There are too many blanks. All 18 of them may walk over him or the Emperor could crush them in an instant.


Vulkan flipped a tank?










Angron held up a Warhound titan from crushing Lorgar (Aaron Dembski Bowden's Betrayer) for a dozen seconds or so.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Silens said:


> Vulkan flipped a tank?
> 
> Angron held up a Warhound titan from crushing Lorgar (Aaron Dembski Bowden's Betrayer) for a dozen seconds or so.


Well, flipping something is definitely different than bracing and holding something up.

_Age of Darkness_ has Vulkan flipping over a Demolisher and "Vulkan was enraged, battering tanks aside like children’s toys."

The text also says that there's little doubt with Ferrus dead, Vulkan is the physically strongest Primarch.

So that means either 1. Holding up the Warhound's leg wasn't as hard as battering aside tanks or 2. Vulkan can do feats that exceed battering tanks around like children's toys or....3. Both.

A Warhound weighs 410 tons. Say, a third of the weight is on the other leg still? That means Angron was holding up 270 tons?

I don't have my experience holding weight (not lifting) weight above my head. Nor with flipping heavy, tank like objects. 

I'd figure holding up 4x the weight would be harder than flipping a tank, but even a Primarch couldn't really get a solid grip on a tank, either...

It's getting really late and I'm starting to ramble...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks for all the input guys. 

The Ork that buckles the Emp's armour could be the Warboss of Warbosses, an Ork who'd make Ghazkull look like a grot. 

Also, it might be possible for an Ork Warboss to serve as a nexus of WAAAGH! energy generated by surrounding Orks (all the WAAAGH! energy is concentrated in him _a la_ Chaos-buffed Horus in his duel with the Emp). 

It would be plausible for a Warboss psychically empowered by millions of other Orks to challenge the Emperor


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

It would have to go to the Primarchs. 

Take into account that in some cases individual Primarchs surpassed the Emperor in aspects of power:



Codex: Imperialis and 6th edn Rulebook said:


> ... He [the Emperor] created twenty super-human creatures, twenty beings whose powers equalled, and in some respects exceeded, his own.


And also a passage from _Angel Exterminatus_:



Ebook page 742 said:


> ...I hope that one day Magnus will return to me again, for he sees much that I do not.


Whilst the latter is hardly conclusive, it does suggest that Magnus's abilities in some form or another do surpass the Emperor's. As much can be gleaned from _A Thousand Sons_ as well. Regardless, the former quote categorically states that in some respects the power of the Primarchs exceeded that of the Emperor. So all eighteen against him? It would surely have to go to the Primarchs.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Explosive power is easier to achieve than continual effort; re flipping a tank, as opposed to a titan actively putting all power into its legs to crush you while you have just had a city land on your head, props go to Angron for this round.

I believe that there was once a list of 'feats of the Primarchs' compiled (Spikey? Thats his craic usually) which listed how powerful they were; ie Ferrus Manus punches a dreadnought of its feat, then is later shown to punch Fulgrim during their final duel, and Fulgrim splits a lip. While some might call that continuity errors, i much prefer to think that it was awesomeness instead.

@CotE is may refer to him being able to percieve things that the emperor is to busy to take the time to. It is also another Graham McNeil which is one I'm loath to take as a quote: his books are full of worfisms.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Saw a program on the Discovery channel that showed a human spinal column under compression and it took just under 2 metric before it shattered!!! Now a human being has not got the muscular development to support that, but goes to show how strong a spine actually is, so when it comes to genetically engineered uber humans powered by warp energy I'm willing to bet they can do all sorts of crazy shit!

As for taking on the E in a king of the ring scenario, I'm not sure to be honest, you would expect the numbers of the primarchs to count but the psychic might of the E is magnitudes greater than Magnus, so it may not be as cut and dry as you would think, the E is a tricksy bastard and I doubt he ever let His sons know how powerful he really was, except Horus for the last 2-3 seconds of his existence.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

didnt the Emperor knock russ out in one punch?he also seemed to be able to effortlessly tie down Magnus in the council of Nikea (the part where he takes out his sword).
he also did easily bring Corax to his knees when he gave Corax information regarding the primarch projecthe beat mortarions father, someone who could kill mortarion quite easily, the emperor killed him in one shot.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Thanks for all the input guys.
> 
> The Ork that buckles the Emp's armour could be the Warboss of Warbosses, an Ork who'd make Ghazkull look like a grot.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked orks were built to be the ultimate warriors. The more they fight and win the bigger they get. GHaz is 15 feet tall at last estimate. Keep in mind that during the said battle orks didn't have space marines to fight. Just whatever else was out there.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> @CotE is may refer to him being able to percieve things that the emperor is to busy to take the time to. It is also another Graham McNeil which is one I'm loath to take as a quote: his books are full of worfisms.


Admittedly yeah. But it does provide (albeit a weak) system of measurement between the two: The Emperor is not objectively psychically stronger/better/more powerful than Magnus across the spectrum. That is certainly the general impression I have got from various sources anyway.



Lost&Damned said:


> didnt the Emperor knock russ out in one punch?


Didn't the Lion also achieve such a feat?



Lost&Damned said:


> beat mortarions father, someone who could kill mortarion quite easily, the emperor killed him in one shot.


IIRC Mortarion never fought his "father" directly, he couldn't withstand the toxic atmosphere long enough to duel him.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Take into account that in some cases individual Primarchs surpassed the Emperor in aspects of power:


Some of them may exceed Emperor in certain fields. Say, Ferrus or Vulkan is stronger or Fulgrim a better swordsman. But if the Emperor is much faster or adept at fighting than Ferrus or Vulkan, or much stronger than Fulgrim, he may overcome any of those three.

Without knowing how much they exceed in certain aspects and fall in others, I don't think we can say "the Emperor loses". Not from this slice, anyway.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst the latter is hardly conclusive, it does suggest that Magnus's abilities in some form or another do surpass the Emperor's


Less clear cut, too. Magnus might see much that the Emperor doesn't, then again the Emperor may see much, much more than Magnus. The whole 3 blind men and elephant parable, ya know? Except one man might be less blind than others.

On the other hand, Magnus might indeed see more than the Emperor. It's not conclusive here.

But as you said in a later post, other sources give you a general feel for Magnus's overall superiority. /shrug



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Didn't the Lion also achieve such a feat?


The Lion did it when Russ had stopped. He probably didn't or roll with the punch or mitigate it in anyway.



Vaz said:


> It is also another Graham McNeil which is one I'm loath to take as a quote: his books are full of worfisms.


_Outcast Dead_.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

In _A Thousand Sons_ the Emperor's psychic flame dwarfs that of Magnus. The difference is probably bigger than the difference between Magnus and Ahriman.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> In _A Thousand Sons_ the Emperor's psychic flame dwarfs that of Magnus. The difference is probably bigger than the difference between Magnus and Ahriman.


Its not how big it is but what you do with it that counts :biggrin:


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Didn't the Lion also achieve such a feat?


after fighting for 3 days straight, Russ stayed unconscious for longer when punched by the Emperor


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## Lord Hell (Aug 6, 2012)

Horus vs The Emperor said:


> Mad laughter rings out. "Why? You ask me why? Have all those millennia taught you nothing? Weak fool, your timidity prevented you from binding the forces of Chaos. You shied away from the ultimate power. I have bound it to my will and will lead humanity into a new age. I, Horus, Master Of Chaos."
> 
> The Emperor looks at his former friend and shakes his head. He sees the trap that has ensnared Horus. "No man can master Chaos," he says quietly. "You have deluded yourself. You are the servant not the master."
> 
> ...


Might be outdated but this is the highest canon level of power showing by The Emperor and Corrupted Horus. It is from the 131 white dwarf also.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Just wanted to clarify that Angron never lifted a Titan off of Lorgar.

What happened was that Lorgar was use his telekenisis to dig down to Angron to save him, however in the midst of doing so a Ultramarines Warhound Titan came upon him. It aimed its main cannon into the hole that Lorgar was digging in, and fired a Plasma cannon charge at him of which Lorgar used his psychic powers to block and protect himself as well as a 5 foot radius around him. The Titan than shot a second plasma cannon charge at Lorgar, which this time charred Lorgar and burned nearly every inch of his skin leaving him in a near death state. 

The titan's core was exhausted after the second plasma cannon charge thus the captain said to crush lorgar by stepping on him, right before the Titans clawed foot landed on Lorgar Angron emerged and put himself between lorgar and the foot. It specifically states that every sinew in Angron's body was snapping and breaking, and that his spine even for a primarch was being crushed.

Angron never once lifted the Titans foot or pushed it back, in fact if the World Eaters Titan had not shown up both Lorgar and Angron would have died. Even with Lorgar adding the last of Psychic might to Angron's strength, Angron was still in the processing of being crushed. 

So where people get this idea that Angron lifted a Titan I have no idea, he merely slowed the descent of its foot from crushing Lorgar and would himself had died if not for being rescued.

As for a city falling on him, he was in the junction and the Ultramarines had lined the whole city block with Mines. They set off the mines and the city block caved in on itself, a city was never dropped of his head. Angron was merely sucked into the collapsing ground in a sort of quick sand like way, of which he then dug his way out of (after the gestalt told him the right way to dig).


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

what about 20 primarchs remember the 2 who we shall never speak of,that surely opens up a can of whoopass


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