# Why did the Primarchs leave?



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Since my previous thread about what the remaining loyalist Primarchs were up to after thousand of years away from the Imperium in form or another has become more a debate about if they are even alive I pose a different question. Why did those that left (and for the sake of making this less of an argument I define those as being Russ, Vulkan, Corax and Khan) leave the Imperium? I am aware of the fluff surrounding them to one extent or another but my question is more specific than why they say they left, I am interested in WHY they left. What did russ really hope to do charging directly into the Eye of Terror? Same thing for Corax. Why would two valuable generals of the Imperium, the last links to the great work of the Emperor, throw their lives away? Why would Vulkan disappear and order his chapter to search for items on the hope that it would occasion his return? 

As before I do not think their is a whole lot of fluff to support most ideas but I am most interested to hear what people think. Compare these warriors to Guilliman and Dorn who stayed with the Imperium and attempted to keep it going, why did four of their brothers leave (yes, I know that Khan was chasing Eldar) and only two stay to try to keep the Imperium running?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Out of universe? Primarchs are too powerful to keep around (that's why they either died or went missing).

In Universe? The Khan didn't really have much choice. He got stuck in the webway during a hunt.

Russ and Vulkan left for unknown reasons besides returning for the "end time". Maybe it was a vision given to them through some innate portion of their genetic code. Or some sensitivity derived from their warp-powered being. Maybe the Emperor on the Golden Throne told them psychically to leave. We don't know the specific reason.

Corax felt emotionally overwhelmed at what he had to do to rebuild his Legion after the Drop Site Massacre.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

In all honesty, would you have stayed?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I always see this argument about the Primarchs being too powerful. From what we've seen I don't really perscribe to that belief. If you look at some of the ways they were defeated like the Lion (Luthuer beoming a Chaos Chamipion) or Dorn (dying on the deck of a black crusade ship) there's not a lot of imagination in killing them. No special blade or unique power source. Decapitation (Ferrus and Konrad) works on them just as easily as it does on anyone else. Here's a list of the things that exist in today's 40k that can give the Primarch a run for their money:

Daemon Princes
Daemon Primarchs
Chaos Undivided Champions 
Greater Daemons
Chaos Lords
Chaos Cult Sorcerers 
Swarm Lord 
Multiple Carnifex's 
Avatar of Khaine
Ork Gargant
Abbaddon
Lucius
Typhus 
Chaos Possession (See Fulgrim)
Black Crusade (see Dorn)
Tyranid Hive Fleet 
Necron Technology
C'tan shard
Complete C'tan
Asdrubael Vect (possible, but I think it'd be a good fight)


If you really look at the Universe of 30k it was a lot safer. Ovcourse the Primarchs looked like demi-gods. The deadliest threat they had were the Eldar and Ork Warboss. In that, if you look at the ones who survived look at what happened. Two died by a daemon prince (Fulgrim). Dorn was killed by unknown means on the deck of a Chaos ship by who knows what or maybe it just crashed. As more dire threats began to surface, their power came to look like mortal. Your not going to see a primarch defeat an entire Tyranid fleet.If you brought back the Primarchs in todays 40k, I truly believe that beyond an obivious tactical and innovative advantage, their physical power will be tested to the limit by almost every faction.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's not just their power though, it's their personality and ability to lead and inspire. A Primarch good rally an enormous campaign army and really do some damage, more so than any other Imperial commander I would wager.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> In all honesty, would you have stayed?


Yes. I would not abandon the Imperium, the Emperor, and my own sons over emotional problems or leave after offering cryptic hints about maybe returning sometime. I never understood why any would just up and leave even more so when their brothers (Dorn and Guilliman) stayed and did the right thing, trying to keep the Emperor's vision going. Russ in particular would be a good one to have still in the Imperium, some one to challenge the oppressive authority that sprang up after the Emperor's internment on the Throne. Also these primarchs that left are sources of pure geneseed that could prove immensely valuable to the Imperium. 

It just strikes me as insane to just up and leave for some random reason and doubly insane to go to the Eye or wherever Vulkan went to. I could entertain the notion hailene suggested, that they were sent a vision or communication from the Emperor to leave, but otherwise their desertion seems to be random and unnecessary.

I also don't see them being to powerful in the 40k universe, with immense support or without. As mentioned they seem likely to have a hard time beating a lot of enemy HQ's or even just mobs. As for the Immense support argument I disagree based on the fact that 1. The Administarium and the Imperial Cult hold great sway over most of the population (crusades anyone?) and 2. That the Primarchs have consistently been shown, barring Dorn and Guilliman, to be more focused on their own legion than on the Imperium as a whole (Corax as an example). I suspect that Russ would just rampage around doing what ever he felt was best and Vulkan doing pretty much the same. In fact they might be a source of division rather than unity and serve to balance each other.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

hmmm, well lorgar beat Khrones most powerful Blood thrister, he is the weakest primarch (before his ascension), Corax fought for 99 days against 4 traitor legions, almost killed lorgar, gave Corax a run for his money and still he felt there was a slight chance of killing Angron.
Cruze wanted to die, Dorn we dont know how he died, Guilliman when he fought against Kor Phaeron, he almost lost only because he blown up and thrown into space which btw is freezing, but hell he still won.
I dont think we really know much about their capabilities, i mean Vulkan was described as just tossing traitor tanks around without any trouble, when ferrus punched Fulgrim in the face with apparently enough power to smash a dreadnought, but not enough to even bruise a primarch.
100s of tons of rock fell on Angron Pre Heresy and he shrugged it off.
The lion (According to a codex i read) could have killed Luther, but hestitated.
Magnus i think is a special case due to his Psyker power, but he could destory an entire planets psychic defense quite easily from half a galaxy away, Russ could Shout and kill every psyker in a nearby vicinity.
Therefore i conclude that no, Primarchs are hard to kill, and except kurze and maybe Dorn, no one has killed a Primarch except another primarch.
Possession and many enemies have a chance to defeat a Primarch but thats mainly because the Primarch dosent really know what to expect, i think that perhaps different writers show them at varying levels of power to suit their plot.

And to son of malice Russ and Corax were not created to be the type to sort of sit back, defending and guiding the imperium is more Guilliman and Dorns jobs, im sure all the Primarchs were told by the Emperor to leave for a reason russ and corax were made to take the fight to the enemy, the only one that left and should have stayed was Vulkan.

The Primarchs are also more than just tremendous physical strength, as AngelofBlood said they could rally vast armies, provide hope (therefore in some way slowing down chaos incursions) and would have massive negative effects the enemies soldiers.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Daemon Princes
> Daemon Primarchs
> Chaos Undivided Champions
> Greater Daemons
> ...


The Primarchs are more than a single soldier. They could be a rallying point for the Imperium or the creator of a better Imperium. Could you imagine what would have happened if Guilliman stuck around and rebuilt the Imperium in Ultramar's image? Do you really believe the Age of Apostasy would have happened under a Primarch's watch?

Also from that list you made, not to be insulting but you plucked some names out of the air, didn't you?

Daemon Princes/Primarchs are veritable enough in power, so it's hard to say "yes" or "no" to them. I can't discard it nor can I agree with it. Do keep in mind the Daemon Primarchs are kept chilling for the similar purpose that the Loyalist Primarchs have gone AWOL.

Chaos Undivided Champions? Do you really believe that a non-Daemon Prince really could give a Primarch a run for his money? Do you imagine Abaddon, with all his toys, could beat a Primarch head on?

Greater Daemons? Draigo has had a merry old time with them. 

Chaos Lords? They're significantly better than a normal Chaos Space Marine, but do you really expect someone like Huron to beat a Primarch?

Chaos Sorcerers? The Primarchs are generally pretty psyker resistant. Heck, Russ shrugs off Magnus, one of the greatest psykers to ever exist.

Swarm Lord? Both the Swarm Lord _and_ his Tyranid Guard were held in check by a single Space Marine long enough for Calgar and the rest of his honor guard to escape. A Primarch wouldn't have slowed his pace to dispatch a single marine.

Carnifex's are too slow to kill a Primarch by themselves. It would be the wrong tool. They're used as battering rams. Something as quick and powerful as a Primarch wouldn't fall victim to them. Plus Carinfexes have their own weaknesses. Besides being slow, they need a nearby synapse creature to function.

Avatar of Khaine--We all know how Calgar managed to hold his own for a while against one. He also beat it, though with the support and assistance of the rest of his men.

Gargants (and by extention most Titan-like machines) seem astoundingly vulnerable to small elite forces creeping up on them. Their void shields don't protect against relatively slow moving objects, like a person. In the Word Bearer's Trilogy we have a squad of Chaos Space Marines traveling up the leg of a Imperator and disabling it from within. I'm sure a Primarch would probably lose to a Gargant if they stood in the open plains and decided to exchange hits like boxers, but a Primarch wouldn't put himself in a situation.

Already touched on dear Abby.

Lucius is an interesting choice. Not in a straight up fight, since he'd get raped, but if Slaneesh's will could overcome a non-compromised Primarch. 

Typhus? Really?

Daemonic possession in the case of Fulgrim seemed to stem from ignorance of Chaos. After the Heresy, when the signs of Chaos become known to both the surviving Primarchs and Space Marines, I'm sure it would have proven much more difficult to trick a Primarch into becoming possessed.

The rest (minus Vect) are large enough to overwhelm a Primarch. 

Vect depends on the writer.

Even assuming that most of the things on the list could beat a Primarch (which most of them can't most of the time), a Primarch is more than a single warrior. Each one was a general and leader. They added more than simply the strength of their sword arm.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

> That the Primarchs have consistently been shown, barring Dorn and Guilliman, to be more focused on their own legion than on the Imperium as a whole (Corax as an example). I suspect that Russ would just rampage around doing what ever he felt was best and Vulkan doing pretty much the same. In fact they might be a source of division rather than unity and serve to balance each other.


This, Corax, Russ, Vulkan and the Khan werent leaders like Dorn, Gulliman, Horus or the Lion were, they probably went away because they felt they werent needed or they didnt have a clear goal after all the imperium was already built, their mission complete even if it came at a huge cost and all threats were controlled at bay (for some time), maybe it was during this time that they felt lost so they went to the one enemy that they couldnt defeat, Chaos, to exact revenge or find purpose or something like that.. Dorn and Guilliman stayed because they were always the ones to have a clear goal of what the imperium should be, they didnt just share the ideals of the emperor like the rest of their brothers, they probably had their own views on how the imperium should be built..

Dorn always struck me as a more cold, realist even cynical type, Gulliman as ambitious, power hungry and calculative, the Lion as even more cynical, distrustful and just plain dissenter, Horus obviously being the one with the closest view of what the Emperor wanted but still more focused in the war aspect of the imperium, still, they all had their own opinions and personal goals about the imperium..


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> The Primarchs are more than a single soldier. They could be a rallying point for the Imperium or the creator of a better Imperium. Could you imagine what would have happened if Guilliman stuck around and rebuilt the Imperium in Ultramar's image? Do you really believe the Age of Apostasy would have happened under a Primarch's watch?
> 
> Um, the heresy happened under the Emperor and Primarchs watch.....
> 
> ...


 

Here's the thing. The Imperium is going to die. This is the the story of how humankind dies, welcome to 40K. If they came back the only thing they'd do is give it a fighting chance as generals and leaders. I put a Primarch around a greater daemon in power (raw power) level depending on who they are just above or below. This post was referring to them as phsical beings. Everytime I refute the "Their to poweful to come back" statement someone comes back with the "I mean them as generals or Leaders."

Guess what? If the Tyranid Hive fleet ever bears it's full power, the Imperium will die. When Abbaddon breaks through Cadia, the Imperium will die. The Primarchs represent one thing that the Imperium does not have at this point hope. That they can bring new ideas and tactics no one else had thought of. The reason they can't come back is because they would make it a fair fight.A FAIR fight. That's it.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> Here's the thing. The Imperium is going to die. This is the the story of how humankind dies, welcome to 40K. If they came back the only thing they'd do is give it a fighting chance as generals and leaders. I put a Primarch around a greater daemon in power (raw power) level depending on who they are just above or below. This post was referring to them as phsical beings. Everytime I refute the "Their to poweful to come back" statement someone comes back with the "I mean them as generals or Leaders."
> 
> Guess what? If the Tyranid Hive fleet ever bears it's full power, the Imperium will die. When Abbaddon breaks through Cadia, the Imperium will die. The Primarchs represent one thing that the Imperium does not have at this point hope. That they can bring new ideas and tactics no one else had thought of. The reason they can't come back is because they would make it a fair fight.A FAIR fight. That's it.


"The Age of Battle is begun. The fires of war burn brightly from star to star. Everywhere the fortresses of Man are steeped in blood and ancient enemies appear from the darkness. Sensing weakness they gather for the kill. They know as we know that as night approaches all mortal life shall be extinguished. We know, as they cannot, that there shall be a new dawn and a new day when we will rise anew and they shall be driven into the darkness forever."

I can't remember which book I saw this in, but TVtropes had it. I prefer it to the grimdark version.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The age of the Primarchs was over, their time was up. The Imperium that emerged during the Age of Rebirth was not the Imperium that they had forged in the Great Crusade. The Imperial Fists IA article notes that: _"...Also, as fewer Primarchs remained, each began to attract unhealthy respect. With the Emperor on Terra, some distant systems began to deify the Primarchs they encountered. To Dorn, only the Emperor was worthy of this attention and he feared the consequences."_

This statement is implicit in suggesting that the Primarchs were becoming increasingly out-of-place in the new Imperium. They did not want to be worshipped, they (bar Guilliman) did not want to rule, their once-mighty Legions were reduced to manageable Chapters, what did they have to stay for? With the High Lords of Terra mustering all the meaningful power and authority to themselves, what would their role have been in the new Imperium? Could they have stood by knowing that the Imperium had completely diverged from the Emperor's vision? Perhaps some were too wracked with grief and regret (Corax/Dorn), others intent on pursuing a personal agenda/vengeance (Russ), and others simply as a result of circumstance (Khan) - perhaps they felt their death or disappearance (for whatever reason) would have better served mankind.

Regardless though, if they had stayed within the realms of man, they would all certainly be dead by M41 anyway.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Cote. If they came back now they'd give the Imperium a decent shot. IF they had all stuck around in the 10k of history I'm sure someone or thing would have gotten them by now.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> Um, the heresy happened under the Emperor and Primarchs watch.....
> 
> The Heresy is something completely different. It delt with Chaos, a little understood agent (outside the Emperor). Also, really, do you think Vandire, or any human individual, could have seized control when there was a Primarch to rally behind?
> 
> ...


The Imperium is currently in its shape _because the Primarchs left_.

The Imperium was, up to about the midway through the 36th millennium, pretty strong.

The 5th edition rulebook describes the time period as "The Golden Age of the Imperium". "The Borders of the Imperium expand to a point almost on par with the successes of the Great Crusade. Chaos Renegades and Xenos are purged from the galaxy in phenomenal numbers, and countless rebel systems are brought to heel."

The Age of Apostasy would have long lasting effects that ultimately put the Imperium in the position it is in today. I'd argue that with a Primarch, nearly any Primarch, alive and active in the Imperium it could not have happened.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Let's be fair, in any Primarch vs enemy fight authored by a member of Black Library, the Primarch is going to win. Especially against any kind of Xenos. Look at Fulgrim literally _punching the physical embodiment of a god of war to death_. Like that would ever happen. He might wound the Avatar, or force a tie, but there's no way he could punch it hard enough to kill it. Stupid McNeill.

Arguing about who could kill what is pretty pointless.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Sethis said:


> Let's be fair, in any Primarch vs enemy fight authored by a member of Black Library, the Primarch is going to win. Especially against any kind of Xenos. Look at Fulgrim literally _punching the physical embodiment of a god of war to death_. Like that would ever happen. He might wound the Avatar, or force a tie, but there's no way he could punch it hard enough to kill it. Stupid McNeill.
> 
> Arguing about who could kill what is pretty pointless.


Well primarchs are described as being able to punch straight through dreadnought armour and throw tanks quite easily, couple this with the fact the Eldar Gods like the Eldar are a dying race Khaine really never had a chance.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Do I think a normal Chaos undivided lord would beat a primarch? No. But I do think Abbadon would. He is not normal. He is the leader of Chaos undivided, he has more backing from the chaos gods than any other, he has as much plot armor as any primarch.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

JelloSea said:


> Do I think a normal Chaos undivided lord would beat a primarch? No. But I do think Abbadon would. He is not normal. He is the leader of Chaos undivided, he has more backing from the chaos gods than any other, he has as much plot armor as any primarch.


The thing with Abbadon is that it wouldn't be him really, rather the power of the four gods being channelled through him. Horus could never have defeated the Emperor alone, as it were, and was only able to almost do so because of the power he was being given. It would be the same with Abby, no way could he lay so much as a finger on a Primarch alone, but if he was powered up like Horus...

As for the rest, whenever the Primarchs were defeated or put in bother in 30k they were almost invariably wounded/ unprepared/ exhausted/ emotionally vulnerable. A healthy, fully armed, fully prepared Primarch would butcher pretty much anything short of another Primarch or the baddest greater daemons. The likes of Typhon, Lucius and Kharn wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Abadon isnt That strong, pretty sure Eldrad Ulthran almost killed him


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> The Imperium is currently in its shape _because the Primarchs left_.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> ...


And this is wher you wrong. The imperium was NEVER built for any primarch to rule. They were his generals not his princes. Gulliman took that role as he'd always schemed too. Could this have happened under a primarch? Before he turned who was Horus taking orders from? Malcador and the Council of Terra. The Primarchs were frustratingly learning their place. Now maybe not everything that happened would have gone down, but yes a Highlord could have accomplished a lot even against a primarch. If you remember the Astartes themselves stayed out of it as they saw it as a purely Imperial Administrative matter.

Also about the Lion, that is utter bullshit. The Lion was ready to do damamge. You made that up completely. He came down to that planet to face a traitor and couldn't take him. Nowhere in the fluff does it say he held back or was wrestling with his feelings. Good try Hailene but that's kinda crap isn't going to float with me. The only time emotions came into it was when Luther was about to deliver the coup de grace and stopped himself. That's it. Look it up.


As To the issue of the greater daemons. Go read Aurelian to see his battle against Angraath. For Sanguinius, a fair fight? This isn't LOTR. Queen Anne rules don't exist in real combat. Sanguinius lost in a fair as any daemon is going to give him fight. Yeah he rallied in the second bout, but he still got his ass kicked good enough to screw him against Horus himself. Moving on, nothing you said about the Anathame blade made any sense. Temba was a Great Unclean One. You realize that right? He stabbed Horus with a blade that did what most weapons of Nurgle would do and made his immune system not work or make him ill. That's Nurgles thing, sickness. The fact that a normal man is challenging able to challenge a Primarch onces possessed by a Greater daemon should give you an idea of the power they have. Oh, and Temba's purpose was to wound Horus to bring him to the negotiation table of the Gods. You read the books I'm assuming so you know that the Gods desired to speak with Horus and that's the way it happened. Either he took their deal and became their warmaster or the wound would kill him. 


You comments about the champions I find a little unfair. What threat had the Primarchs ever faced before the heresy that could equal somthing like Typhus?  What lone figure had ever killed that many people? To say killing millions close to billions is pointless when talking about Nurgle's champions. The real threat are those that didn't die and succumb to the promise of life. Those are in the billions. The new plague zombies, daemons, great unclean ones, and assorted horrors he's created. Lucius was thrown in because he's no longer mortal. 


When the 36th millenium is a golden age? The astartes legions have been decimated as a result of the Heresy and are a shadow of their former selves. The Mechanicum has been splint in half and has lost SOOOOO MUCH innovative technology and the ability to create it never to learned again. The Emperor has been on the throne for 6k. The daemon primarchs are a dire threat to the security and many of the loyalist primarchs are now gone. Let's not bullshit each other here, before Vandire did his thing they were already screwed. The Imperium's current state is because of the Heresy, the reign of blood contributed but was not the overall factor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Just to butt in quickly:


Deadeye776 said:


> Also about the Lion, that is utter bullshit. The Lion was ready to do damamge. You made that up completely. He came down to that planet to face a traitor and couldn't take him. Nowhere in the fluff does it say he held back or was wrestling with his feelings. Good try Hailene but that's kinda crap isn't going to float with me. The only time emotions came into it was when Luther was about to deliver the coup de grace and stopped himself. That's it. Look it up.


Actually:

_"...As Luther fell, Jonson raised his sword high, but [even in his rage] could not bring himself to deliver the killing blow. Luther had no such qualms and, as Jonson hesitated, he unleashed a terrible sorcerous attack that mortally wounded the Primarch…"_

That's from the IA article.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Beat me to it!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Let's make a list of things that have defeated a Primarch or come close that aren't other Primarchs:

1.The Megarachnids look like they were going to finish off the rest of EC and their boss
2. Kabbandah (this fully rested shit is BS). In a real war no one's going to give you a breather.
3. Great Unclean One Temba
4. Ork Warboss before Ullanor almost killed the Emperor
5. Kaldor Draigo (I'm sure Mortarion was rested and fully fed)
6. GK company took out Angron, the Skulltaker, and 12 Bloodthirster bodyguards on Armageddon.
7. Lord of Shadows kills Gulliman, I'm giving this one to him since he warped Fulgrims body and had possessed his mind.
8. Luther owned the Lion. It was a fair fight as any Chaos Champion could give and the Lion lost. He's only alive now,maybe, because Luther remembered that was his brother.
9. Ragnar Blackman w/ Spear of Russ banishes and wounds Magnus. If you've got the right tools you can handle even a daemon Primarch. 


I'm sure people will tear this list apart but he's my part. Luther had the backing of the dark gods and beat the Lion. Ragnar had a weapon that could kill or wound another primarch and was able to banish a primarch. The GK brought a company and banished a primarch, the executioner of Khorne, and 12 bloodthirsters. So if you've got the Dark Gods backing, the equipment, and numbers you can defeat a Primarch. Who do we know in 40k with those attributes? Abbaddon. Kaldor Draigo not only defeated but maimed and humiliated a primarch. Abbaddon is the chosen of Chaos Undivded and commands the legions of traitors (with the exception of the Night Lords who roll because they want to generally, and maybe the AL). 

All those forces he commands now. If you read the Night lord series you realize that most of the traitors feel like their primarchs don't even give a shit about them. They are generally seen as failures with the exception of Lorgar, Angron, and Fulgrim. Horus is not held in a favorable view and they know they have more now with Abby then with Horus.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just to butt in quickly:
> 
> 
> Actually:
> ...


 
You left out the part about them being evenly matched and that Luther "stumbled" and that's what gave Johnson the advantage. Yeah, I was wrong about the Lion's feelings but it was an even fight that chance, circumstance, and ruthlessness are what decided the match. I know where the article exists and it says it's an even fight proving my point. Luther or the Lion could have taken that match as easily as Abbaddon against any primarch would be a fair fight. Chaos champions are the equal of primarchs. Thanks.


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## zacktheRipper (Jan 23, 2012)

Even if the Loyalist Primarchs were still around, we still have some Daemon Primarchs to counter them. In fact, I'd argue that the Daemon Primarchs would win a fight with a Loyalist now, because they have thousands of years to hone their abilities that have been augmented by Chaos. I reference the Dominion of Fire, where Angron himself stepped in to kill, and it took the Imperium four Space Marine Chapters, 30 IG regiments, and two Titan legions to stop just one Daemon Primarch and fifty-thousand Berzerks. Then the First War for Armageddon, where he and only 4 companies of World Eaters and some Daemons ravaged the planet utterly. The Loyalist Primarchs would be able to best Chaos tactically, I would say, but actually combat with a Daemon Primarch would leave them broken.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

My dad is bigger than your dad...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

zacktheRipper said:


> Even if the Loyalist Primarchs were still around, we still have some Daemon Primarchs to counter them. In fact, I'd argue that the Daemon Primarchs would win a fight with a Loyalist now, because they have thousands of years to hone their abilities that have been augmented by Chaos. I reference the Dominion of Fire, where Angron himself stepped in to kill, and it took the Imperium four Space Marine Chapters, 30 IG regiments, and two Titan legions to stop just one Daemon Primarch and fifty-thousand Berzerks. Then the First War for Armageddon, where he and only 4 companies of World Eaters and some Daemons ravaged the planet utterly. The Loyalist Primarchs would be able to best Chaos tactically, I would say, but actually combat with a Daemon Primarch would leave them broken.


 
Actually thoough suffering great losses the GK's have always had the daemon primarch's number if they can get to within striking distance of it. Mortarion and Angron have been banished by the Knights.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> 3. Great Unclean One Temba


To be fair, it was the first time that anyone had ever seen a Plague Marine before, and he was armed with a weapon that was secreting venoms _designed_ to take down Horus. Not a Primarch, _Horus_ specifically. If I remember rightly, the Anathema also significantly boosted Temba's speed and strength. Now that's an unfair advantage.



Deadeye776 said:


> All those forces he commands now. If you read the Night lord series you realize that most of the traitors feel like their primarchs don't even give a shit about them. They are generally seen as failures with the exception of Lorgar, Angron, and Fulgrim. Horus is not held in a favorable view and they know they have more now with Abby then with Horus.


That's a group of Night Lords, who are cynical about everything at the best of times. Hell, it's probably a racial memory-type thing, like the Black Rage for BA; Curze hated everything, so they hate everything as they inherit his mindset via the gene-seed (in a limited fashion, of course, but we know it can happen - Talos draws his gift of prescience from the gene-seed).

Midnight


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> And this is wher you wrong. The imperium was NEVER built for any primarch to rule. They were his generals not his princes. Gulliman took that role as he'd always schemed too. Could this have happened under a primarch? Before he turned who was Horus taking orders from? Malcador and the Council of Terra. The Primarchs were frustratingly learning their place. Now maybe not everything that happened would have gone down, but yes a Highlord could have accomplished a lot even against a primarch. If you remember the Astartes themselves stayed out of it as they saw it as a purely Imperial Administrative matter.
> 
> So you believe the Emperor set up these 20 Generals with no other purpose for them to conquer the galaxy. Assuming the Emperor believed he could succeed, what would he then? Besides have 20 extremely charismatic, capable Generals with hundreds of thousands of the finest warriors armed with the best weapons his Imperium could arm them with?
> 
> ...


It was actually closer to the 32-36th milnemium that was the Golden Age of the Imperium. Says so in the 5th edition rule book.

The Apostasy not only ended the Golden Age, but led to the "Age of Redemption" where the Imperium went into over drive to try to correct for all the mistakes it made doing the Apostasy. This in turned led to an overextention of the Imperium and left it in the very vulnerable position we know today.

All from the 5th edition codex.



Deadeye776 said:


> Let's make a list of things that have defeated a Primarch or come close that aren't other Primarchs:
> 
> 1.The Megarachnids look like they were going to finish off the rest of EC and their boss
> 2. Kabbandah (this fully rested shit is BS). In a real war no one's going to give you a breather.
> ...


1. Since when is a Lord Commander equivalent to a Primarch? 

2. There's a difference between beating an opponent (which Ka'Bandha did) and being better than your opponent. Calgar beat an Avatar of Khaine, but only because it had been shot up by his men and his equipment. In a fair fight Calgar would have lost. No one is suddenly saying Papa Smurf is better than an Avatar, though.

3. Again, a matter of equipment and preparation. Gaunt kills several CSM in _Traitor General_. Because of the element of surprise and the over confidence of his enemies he was able to do so. No one is going to say Gaunt is a better fighter than a CSM.

4. It's not explictly said the Emperor was in any particular danger from the Ork. The exact quote is, "On the Ork infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge frenzied greenskin as it _struggled _to choke the Emperor's life out of him." Italics mine.

It seems the Ork was having problems strangling the Big E. Whether it was because the Emperor was resisting (maybe he put his wrist or something near his neck and was able to prevent the Ork from completely choking him) or because the Ork simply lacked the ability to choke the Emperor is unknown.

5. It never said Draigo beat him. Simply carved his name into his heart somehow.

6. Through the combined efforts of the Space Wolf counter attack and the 100 GK terminators they were able to banish him. Whether they were able to defeat him in a conventional sense is not clear.

7. He did. Though manifested through a Primarch's body. It's a gray zone.

8. Already touched on this in your last post. Luther would have lost had the Lion been resolved to finish him after he Luther exhausted himself.

9. I don't know the specifics of Ragnar's fight with Magnus.

As for the Nightlord series, the protagonist has a pretty dim view of Abby. He says that all crusades had been failures where Abaddon retorts that the Soul Hunter wasn't privy to Abaddon's plans and he had no right to judge whether any of his crusades were failures or not.

His own view of the traitor Primarchs is disparaging, but I think that's a general feel amongst all the traitors. "MY father didn't fail. It was because all YOUR fathers did jack diddly squat that we lost. In fact they're still doing squat and that's why the Long War hasn't been won yet."

I'm tagging myself out on the specifics of "Could a Primarch beat X". I'm tagging CotE to answer any further issues .


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just to butt in quickly:
> 
> 
> Actually:
> ...


:laugh: Owned.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> 6. GK company took out Angron, the Skulltaker, and 12 Bloodthirster bodyguards on Armageddon.
> 9. Ragnar Blackman w/ Spear of Russ banishes and wounds Magnus. If you've got the right tools you can handle even a daemon Primarch.


These are both instances of Daemon-Primarchs being banished, which is not the same as being beaten. I'd actually argue that Daemon-Primarchs are significantly weaker, in real-space combat, now than they were before hand. Primarily this is because they can be banished, which is not something that could be done before hand. Banishing a Daemon-Primarch does not require you to be better in close combat (or any other form of battle) it simply requires you to know the proper rights and get in the right position. In other words, an extremely lucky 8 year old could pull it off. Is an 8 year old a better fighter than a Primarch? 

I'd further point out that around 1/10 of the finest fighting force (and one specifically tuned to defeat Chaos), in addition to countless others, gave up their lives to banish (not kill, temporarily remove) Angron. And Magnus was attempting to manifest himself (not actually fighting IIRC), a ritual that is always noted to be finicky, and Ragnar manages simply to disrupt the ritual and losses a priceless artifact in so doing (so again, something an 8 year old could do). He is in fact banished for doing so, because the SW disagree with you about the significance of the act.

And as far as Draigo goes. 1) That was some grade AAA bad fluff and 2) We actually don't know much about what happened in that situation. The fact that a human can't actually exist in the realm of Chaos but Draigo can tells you he's not exactly a solid precedent. 



zacktheRipper said:


> In fact, I'd argue that the Daemon Primarchs would win a fight with a Loyalist now, because they have thousands of years to hone their abilities that have been augmented by Chaos.


And what do you think the loyalist Primarchs have been doing this whole time? Chilling with their homies? No wait, that's the traitors. IF any loyalist Primarchs survived to the present day, they would have had to prove themselves against far steeper opposition than the Daemon-Primarchs have faced.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> These are both instances of Daemon-Primarchs being banished, which is not the same as being beaten. I'd actually argue that Daemon-Primarchs are significantly weaker, in real-space combat, now than they were before hand. Primarily this is because they can be banished, which is not something that could be done before hand. Banishing a Daemon-Primarch does not require you to be better in close combat (or any other form of battle) it simply requires you to know the proper rights and get in the right position. In other words, an extremely lucky 8 year old could pull it off. Is an 8 year old a better fighter than a Primarch?
> 
> That's completely ridiculous logic. So your saying an 8 yr old could have gone to Armageddon with the knowledge of how to banish Angron, gotten past the dozen bloodthirsters, and the Skulltaker and banished a daemon primarch? Right. BL said that Kaldor Draigo kicked Mortarion's ass and maimed him. Where's that leave you? Same organization, I think it's a bit more than just position and luck when Mortarion got owned.
> 
> ...


I don't know what you mean by this.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Deadeye stop being so melodramatic and defensive, you're just embarrassinng yourself.

The 8 year old thing might seem a little ridiculous but to be honest in the right context it's plausible- banishment by ritual rather than combat is more than possible, the fact the GK took Angron down face-to-face (outnumbering the Primarch and his bodyguard nearly 10-1 doing it) suggests that they couldn't perform a banishment ritual. Probably because of all the menhirs and shrines to Khorne he'd created to sustain his power.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Why did the Primarch's leave? Because its another plot device to send mankind down the shit hole, aka, more grim dark for man.

Just face it, all the good heroes who had the possibility of improving the life of the Imperium have been killed off because of the setting's rules. Mankind isn't suppose to win remember, mankind is suppose to slowly die off into oblivion eventually and killing off any memorable characters that inspire hope helps a lot to the prior rule.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Baron Spikey said:


> Deadeye stop being so melodramatic and defensive, you're just embarrassinng yourself.
> 
> The 8 year old thing might seem a little ridiculous but to be honest in the right context it's plausible- banishment by ritual rather than combat is more than possible, the fact the GK took Angron down face-to-face (outnumbering the Primarch and his bodyguard nearly 10-1 doing it) suggests that they couldn't perform a banishment ritual. Probably because of all the menhirs and shrines to Khorne he'd created to sustain his power.


 


Please. The only thing here ridiculous is you just tried to explain how an 8 yr old child could have survived a chaos infected planet to banish a primarch. Ovcourse it's not impossible. Nothing is impossible. I'm sure there's a way to survive in a black hole or win 650 million in the state lottery. I believe you'd have better chances with those than watching some pre-teen banish the Red Angel. I don't know if you it's become obvious but the writers at BL and the guys who do the Codex's have obviously tried to move the power standard. The fact that you have GK's defeating and maiming daemon primarchs and that the Black Legion is now more powerful than they ever have been should tell you something

The primarchs are no longer the standard of power in 40k. Just like with the Necron's it seems that the Astartes have been beefed up to surpass their fathers/masters and make them obsolete. The Astartes have become more and more powerful and chapter masters like Marneus Calgar, Logan Grimnar, and Dante have all accomplished feats we normally would not attribute to a normal Astartes. I think the notion is is that the BL and GW don't need the primarchs loyalist/traitor for anything. They'll only come back when it's all over. Originally they were the standard of power, but it seems now guys like Abbaddon, Kaldor Draigo, and the Sanguinor represent a transcendant power themselves.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> That's completely ridiculous logic. So your saying an 8 yr old could have gone to Armageddon with the knowledge of how to banish Angron, gotten past the dozen bloodthirsters, and the Skulltaker and banished a daemon primarch?.


Obviously the 8 year old was an exaggeration. My point was that all it technically takes to banish a daemon (and thus Daemon-Primarch) is the proper ritual. So anyone who knows the ritual and can follow instructions could technically banish Angron. I was not trying to say that an 8 year old could have fought and defeated Angron or the bloodthirsters, quite the opposite in fact. 



> You don't get to pick and choose what you do and don't like. You can say it's b.s. and wish they would retcon it (like I do) but it's still apart of the story whether you like it or not. So yeah, buddy, it counts.


Actually I do get to pick and choose what I like, it's called having an opinion. You are right that my personal dislike doesn't invalidate any of the fluff, but I never said it did. I didn't dismiss it, I just pointed out that I didn't like it. And then I pointed out that whatever is going on with Draigo is something unique in the galaxy and thus saying 'Draigo can do it' is not a good basis for any position. 



> I don't know what you mean by this.I don't know what you mean by this.


Another poster seemed to be suggesting that the traitor Primarchs would be more experienced than any loyalists who might return in 40k. I was simply pointing out that this ignores the question of what the loyalists have been doing (ie. surviving in the Eye by themselves).



> I don't know if you it's become obvious but the writers at BL and the guys who do the Codex's have obviously tried to move the power standard. The fact that you have GK's defeating and maiming daemon primarchs and that the Black Legion is now more powerful than they ever have been should tell you something


1) One GK, who is as previously discussed a unique case, maimed a Daemon-Primarch. This is not the same as multiple GK's being capable of the act.
2) Is the Black Legion really all that much more powerful? Especially when compared to the Legions of old. Sure Abaddon can nominally call on any of the traitors but so could Horus, and as the Night Lords series shows some traitors really don't give two shits about Abaddon. The Black Legion itself is smaller than the Sons of Horus were and command drastically less respect and obedience than they did. Further, Abaddon primarily wields Horus' old gear and has a lesser blessing than Horus did, so the idea that he is stronger is far-fetched.



> The primarchs are no longer the standard of power in 40k.


The Primarchs were never the standard of power. They were, and are, the extreme. 



> ust like with the Necron's it seems that the Astartes have been beefed up to surpass their fathers/masters and make them obsolete.


I see it quite the opposite. By removing the C'tan from the game (by which I mean a complete C'tan) GW is able to rectify the perceived power-imbalance present by having Gods present on the battle-field. Exactly like what they did by never making the Primarchs playable (except Angron, and that failed for exactly the reason I said). The Necrons managed to outsmart the C'tan but that doesn't make them necessarily better (and certainly not stronger, the C'tan are still godlike beings) and it certainly doesn't make the C'tan obsolete. 



> The Astartes have become more and more powerful and chapter masters like Marneus Calgar, Logan Grimnar, and Dante have all accomplished feats we normally would not attribute to a normal Astartes.


Well for one thing Calgar, Grimnar and Dante aren't normal Marines, they are the Chapter Masters of perhaps the three greatest Chapters out there. Second compare Calgar v. Avatar with Fulgrim v. Avatar: Calgar gets his entire army to work on injuring the Avatar then is badly injured in their fight; Fulgrim, on the other hand, chokes it (and it's possibly stronger in this time period, as Khaine's death at Slaanesh's hands was recent) out with his bare hands. I think it's pretty clear which of these is a more impressive feat.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Obviously the 8 year old was an exaggeration. My point was that all it technically takes to banish a daemon (and thus Daemon-Primarch) is the proper ritual. So anyone who knows the ritual and can follow instructions could technically banish Angron. I was not trying to say that an 8 year old could have fought and defeated Angron or the bloodthirsters, quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> Hey, I'm gonna say it as simply as possible. I get it. All you "technically" need to banish a deamons in general. However, I think you over simplifying something. If you observe the banishments that have occured, a lot more had to happen than just the ceremony.
> 
> ...


Um, why not? None of the chapter masters named are even psykers. They rose through the ranks because the were exceptional yes. This however does not take away from my point.Underneath their rise it's being shown that poweful warriors doing things beyond what he primarchs did are coming through the legions. You have guys like Uriel Ventris, Ragnar Blackman, Justicar Alaric, Kor'sarro Khan, and Sigismund. Yeah I threw Sigismund in their because I believe he was the beginning of the "the Astartes are badass on their own" new school. Walking around challenging the top enemey commanders defines badass.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Actually it's called a precedent. Once something occurs you can site the event as a reference for the possibility of the event. That's how I usually debate these things.


Well like I was trying to say Draigo is a bad precedent. Not because of the action of defeating a Primarch (unprecedented yes but hey new fluff so whatever) but because he is capable of doing something that by all the laws of the universe (and I do mean the 40k universe) should be impossible, surviving in the warp. Because he can literally do the impossible, I think that Draigo isn't a solid precedent.



> Your making the assumption this is a unique case. The GK's regularly perform feats that seem to be miraculous when compared to other Astartes chapters.


You misunderstood me I think. Draigo isn't a unique case because he defeated a Primarch (though that is something only he has done), he is unique because he can survive in the warp an act which is impossible (as the warp doesn't actually have physical dimensions).

Yes the GK are awesome against daemons but you have to remember that they are specifically trained and equipped to fight daemons and nothing else. Personally I don't find most of what the regular GK do to be miraculous, its what they were created to do. Just like I don't find it miraculous when Marines triumph over superior numbers, its what they do.



> Hector Rex challenged Angraath the Unbound, the most powerful bloodthirster ever created, to personal combat and defeated it. If you look at the power Angraath has compared to a daemon primarch you could say that more and more powerful characters are beginning to appear in 40k. I think you'll agree that Angraath is close to if not equal to a primarch in power at the least.


Close to, but less. Lorgar is generally (and personally) acknowledged as one of the weakest Primarchs but he still beats Angraath. Plus, sources vary on just how powerful Angraath is (especially when compared to Ka'Banda, who was also defeated by a Primarch). 



> In the Blood Reaver Night Lord novel the Night Lord defector states that have many more times the forces currently at their command then Horus did. It's the scene where he's trying to convince Talos to defect as well if you want to check it out. As the series shows as well, going against Abbaddon can have dire consequences as the book showed.


 I don't remember that scene (are you referring to Soul Hunter, cause I don't even remember there being Black Legion in Blood Reaver?) but he's clearly lying (or mistaken). There is simply no way that roughly 2000 years of infighting, raids and the hazards of the warp has resulted in a net increase of Chaos Space Marines, especially given that few of them seem to actively recruit all that often. Yes, there are fresh influxes in the renegades but these Chapters are very loosely (at best) tied to Abaddon and likely are lesser in number and power than the elements of the Imperial Army and Mechanicus that turned with Horus. What remains in the Eye is the remnants of Horus' force, and by definition remnants can't be larger than the original.

I also don't remember any particularly drastic repercussions to going against Abaddon. Indeed Talos personally rejects not only Abaddon but envoys of all four Gods and then basically just walks away. The Exalted manages to ignore Abaddon's orders and slip his fleet with little trouble. Neither is particularly concerned with the Warmaster's wrath when they do these things.



> You really didn't see anyone other than primarchs challenge greater daemons, defeat gargantuan Ork Warbosses, and take on Eldar war god avatars. The primarchs took care of that stuff. That's what I mean by they were the standard.


They still are the only ones who are capable of doing these things on their own and with out a great deal of difficulty. Indeed I think that's what truely shows the Primarchs power. Sure other people can do what they did but it takes a number of them coordinating their efforts, and still generally results in near-defeat and grave injuries. 



> When they were around you really didn't see the regular astartes really step up to the plate. Only really the Custodians seemed unwilling to take shit from them.


I don't really see this. Yes, the Custodes are the only ones who look to go up against the Primarchs, but that's because they are the only ones not commanded by said Primarchs. I do not agree that the Marines of the Primarch's era were unwilling or unable to step up to the plate, it just appears that way because the Primarchs overshadowed them so badly. 



> None of the chapter masters named are even psykers.


What does their being psykers have to do with any thing?



> They rose through the ranks because the were exceptional yes. This however does not take away from my point.Underneath their rise it's being shown that poweful warriors doing things beyond what he primarchs did are coming through the legions. You have guys like Uriel Ventris, Ragnar Blackman, Justicar Alaric, Kor'sarro Khan, and Sigismund.


That's the thing though. These types of warriors (and Sigismund in the flesh) existed when the Primarchs were around. There were tons of Marines in all the Legions that would be legends in this day but are largely overlooked because of how awesome the Primarchs were. Lucius, Garro, Loken, Ingo Pech, Cestus, Mhotep, Skraal, Kharn, Ahriman, Argel Tal, Bjorn, Sevatar, etc, etc, etc. These men were just as badass, just as capable as the ones you named. Yet all that is remembered from that time is the Primarchs themselves. This will be the fate of Calgar, Ventris, Ragnar and all the others when their time passes.


EDIT: Also, could you please stop responding like that, it makes it really difficult to reply.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Just to chime in about the Black Legion's strength. Ruven does indeed mention that Abaddon commands more forces than Horus did:

"How much larger are the forces in the Eye now, than those that first fled after the failed Siege of Terra? How many billions of men, how many countless thousands of ships, have rallied to the Warmaster's banner in ten millennia? Abbadon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded."

Do keep in mind this seems to be overall strengths. Talos from _Soul Hunter_ does comment on the strength of the Black Legion itself:

"Do you fight, Warmaster, because you believe you can still win? After centuries of defeat, after failed Black Crusades, after infighting and war has _bled your Legion dry_ and draped you in ignominy among the other Legions? Is it not true your men are slaved to daemons to make up for the great losses you have sustained since the death of your primarch? You leech strength from other sources, because your own Legion's might is almost gone."

It seems that the Black Legion itself is a spent force and to compensate the BL has to draw forces from elsewhere. Traitor guard, cultists, daemons, ect.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Well like I was trying to say Draigo is a bad precedent. Not because of the action of defeating a Primarch (unprecedented yes but hey new fluff so whatever) but because he is capable of doing something that by all the laws of the universe (and I do mean the 40k universe) should be impossible, surviving in the warp. Because he can literally do the impossible, I think that Draigo isn't a solid precedent.
> 
> Until the new fluff came out I would've told you the Necrons had ZERO chance of defeating the C'tan. Things change and so do precedents.
> 
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

> Until the new fluff came out I would've told you the Necrons had ZERO chance of defeating the C'tan. Things change and so do precedents.


The warp does not have material dimensions and does not have matter in it, it is a realm of emotions and nothing else. Therefore it is not possible for something from the material realm to exist within the warp. Ships use Gellar fields to transport just enough reality in with them to protect them, once that field (and the reality it contains) are disabled the ship immediately becomes unstable, because it can't exist within the warp. These are not opinions, this is how the warp works, its fact. Now its also fact that Draigo can survive in the warp. This means that Draigo's existence fundamental breaks a basic rule of the 40k universe. Something that can this is not even remotely comparable to something that cannot. Ergo, the fact that Draigo can also defeat a Primarch does not mean that it is something that someone who cannot survive in the warp (ie. everyone) can do. 



> Lorgar is probably one of the most powerful primarchs when he fights Angraath. If you read Aurelian you'd know what I'm talking about.


Doesn't really change my point. Lorgar is a Primarch and defeats Angraath in the Eye, which is harder than it is in real-space.



> If you look up Angraath you'll see he's the most powerful bloodthirster that Khorne has second to none. The only bloodthirster that comes close is Skarbrand. Kabandah is powerful but weaker than Angraath.


Khorne has a lot of 'second most powerful servants'. Until An'ggrath was created by forge world Ka'Bandah was the most powerful and he is still amongst the greatest. Regardless, their exact levels compared to each other are irrelevant, both are very dangerous servants of Khrone and both were defeated by Primarchs. 



> It's the scene where the night lord defector is explaining how Abaddon is who they should put their stock and faith in. He says that the Primarchs are obsolete in so many words and that Abaddon is what they should look to as a leader for their future. He then explains the disposition of the forces the despoiler has compared to Horus.


I remember now (it was also quoted below) and I stand by my assessment. Regardless of whether Ruven is inflating Abaddon's position to try and convince Talos or just genuinely doesn't know what he's talking about, he's wrong.



> The scene I'm talkin about is with Ruven.


You said that the series showed dire consequences to crossing Abaddon. I pointed out that the Night Lords repeatedly cross Abaddon and not only do they not receive any 'dire consequences' they are not afraid of receiving them either.



> Primarchs have been defeated and mortally wounded by Greater daemons and xenos that Inquisitor lords, daemon hunters, chapter masters, and unique Astartes have defeated.


Primarchs are thus far the only thing to have mortally wounded each other (leaving aside Horus, as it was the blade that caused what was otherwise a scratch to be mortal). Sanguinous was defeated by Ka'badha but was not in good shape when that happened and won the rematch (with authority) anyway. 

Further, I have not said that others are incapable of defeating things that the Primarchs have (quite the opposite in fact). I have said that when you see something fight both a Primarch and a more ordinary marine it is quite clear that the Primarch's victory comes with greater ease and personal skill than the other. 



> I honestly see characters like Dante and Calgar doing things that would have been thought to be Primarch level and they aren't the only ones.


So cite one. Cite one victory that Dante or Calgar achieves (in single combat) that was not possible for a Primarch.


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