# Angron, The Daemon Primarch?



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Now this may have already been commented upon, so if you've stated your two cent about it you can either rewrite it or move along. 

That being said I was wandering about on the GW website when I came across the campaign rules for all three Wars for Armageddon. I knew Angron had led the first war against the beleaguered planet and so I was pleasantly surprised to see rules for use of him in the campaign (I so want rules for Daemon Primarch Fulgrim, hell if they made rules for Daemon Primarch Mortarion I'd actually run a Nurgle force, his Epic model was amazing eventhough it was tiny). Anyway back to topic, I noted his hefty price of 500 points, but then I noticed something else.

His (and I'm sorry for a Daemon Primarch) lacking stats. A couple of things jumped out immediately. Now I prerequisite this with I know nothing of how an Apocalypse game is ran. I haven't read the rulebook yet, I know nothing of data sheets and the like, I owned IA1 when it first came out and actually used the Baneblade from it way back in 3rd edition. So if what I am saying can be easily reputed with a "Well in Apoc..." then please feel free to say so, but:

He can be instant killed (not by weapons that are twice S, BUT by weapons that have it in their special rules).

He suffers the effects of psychic powers. Come on he's like Khorne's righthand man, even the Herald of Khorne can have his blessing!

He's really lacking on the special abilities of what we would interpret as a Daemon Primarch.

Roar of Hate only reduces enemy Ld by 1? :shok:

Maybe it should be Roar of Hate causes enemy troops to cower in fear. Any enemy unit that is not Fearless within 12" of Angron (even if in CC) must pass a successful Ld test or fall back immediately as per the Fall Back rules. Any unit in CC that falls back the unit assaulting them may make a sweeping advance. That makes more sense.

Maybe it's me, maybe he was created using these data sheets I read about for usage with Apoc. I don't know, but I think they could have created a much more fearsome opponent (and playable Daemon Primarch) than that.

EDIT: Sorry I noticed all the mistakes and just had to edit my thread.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree, I thought he was a bit useless as well. I think he shpuld have had sats more similiar to An'ggrath.

1. Lots of weapons have instant death; why is the most kick-ass blade in the universe not better than this?

2. If a C'tan can ignore invulnerable saves, then for almos double the cost he should too.

3. Why should you have to have at least 2 Bloodthirsters with him? Damn GW for trying to squeeze more money out of us...:ireful2:

4. If Skarbrand, an exile from Khorne's realm and fallen from his patrons favour, has a roar that makes everyone re-roll hits, then surely the most gifted of the Blood Gods servants should do? Mind you, most of the time the Daemon Primarchs sit there on their daemon world thinking 'Ooh this is pretty, I'll go do some gardening...'

Midnight


----------



## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I too found his stats lacking but i wasn't too bothered about him having to come with two bloodthirsters. It's quite fluffy if you read the white dwarf that daemon hunters came out in (282 i think). In that he has a bodyguard of daemon princes/greater daemons.


----------



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

yeah he should be WAAAAY better than them. I think if GW actually does release a codex for each major power I think one of the special characters should be the Daemon Primarchs and they should weigh in like how special characters in Fantasy weigh in. Isn't there some character in the Undead books that's like 1,600 points?

Anyway I've never read any of the HH novels so I couldn't really give a good rework of Angron but surely he should have some more potent abilities. Maybe his weapon could ignore invul saves (as most come from some psychic tuning and surely Khorne's champion could smash down a puny rune). Maybe he could have some sort of psychotic charge (when he charges into combat every successful to hit roll may be rolled again for an additional hit). He could be a psychic anathema. All psykers within 12" of Angron at the beginning of each player turn must roll a successful armour save or suffer one wound. I mean honestly the sky is the limit when it comes to such powerful characters.

EDIT: Again careless mistakes


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with midnight sun. Use the stats and rules for An'ggrath. They are far closer to what he should be. They would be similar in potency. Khorne's greatest bloodthirster and his greatest servant. Makes sense to me.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

On a side note Daemon Princes in general are noted as not being as powerful as Greater Daemons. Although Angron may be an exception being a Daemon _Primarch_. Also take into account that Angron isn't the most powerful Khornate Daemon Prince, that title goes to Doombreed according to the Chaos Marine Codex.


----------



## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

I think half the issue with the Daemon Primarchs is that they were hard as f**king nails even before they attained Daemonhood; to accurately represent how hard they'd really be in fluff, they'd be _stupidly_ overpowered in any kind of sensible game*. For starters, every single one of them should have Eternal Warrior - no ifs, ands or buts. 








* OK, so it's debatable how 'sensible' Apocalypse is in the first place. That's probably why I think it's so much fun


----------



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

but it's possible, I mean in fluff Space Marines are potent warriors, capable of taking on hordes in small units, however it would be overhwhelmingly unfair to have an army where for a thousand points that army can barely field one unit. 

I've never heard of the Daemon Primarchs being less powerful than their Greater Daemon colleagues, interesting add there Child.


----------



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Princes are almost as strong as greater demons. A loyalist primarch would take several greater demons and kindly hand their asses to them. I see no reason for traitor Primarchs to be worse.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On a side note Daemon Princes in general are noted as not being as powerful as Greater Daemons. Although Angron may be an exception being a Daemon _Primarch_. Also take into account that Angron isn't the most powerful Khornate Daemon Prince, that title goes to Doombreed according to the Chaos Marine Codex.


Yes I can see some DP being weaker, but again....

In BL Books DPs like in Daemon World, Soul Drinkers, Strom of Iron, are pretty powerful, and take whole worlds for themselves. GDs never seem to hold onto anything, even Daemon controled worlds. Then you have Primarchs like Sanguis and Fulgrim who take out Avatars of Khain and Bloodthirsters with their hands. 

Now lets give those same Primarchs DP status, even Angron has a Bodyguard, key word, of Bloodthirsters. A DP Primarch should own any GD easily.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Asmodeun said:


> Princes are almost as strong as greater demons. A loyalist primarch would take several greater demons and kindly hand their asses to them. I see no reason for traitor Primarchs to be worse.





Warlock in Training said:


> Yes I can see some DP being weaker, but again....
> 
> In BL Books DPs like in Daemon World, Soul Drinkers, Strom of Iron, are pretty powerful, and take whole worlds for themselves. GDs never seem to hold onto anything, even Daemon controled worlds. Then you have Primarchs like Sanguis and Fulgrim who take out Avatars of Khain and Bloodthirsters with their hands.
> 
> Now lets give those same Primarchs DP status, even Angron has a Bodyguard, key word, of Bloodthirsters. A DP Primarch should own any GD easily.


Im not saying Daemon Princes arn't powerful, quite the contrary. But in _most_ cases Greater Daemons outrank and are more powerful than Daemon Princes. 

Firstly Sanguinius was owned by Ka'Bandha the first time (Ka'Bandha allowed the Primarch to live), and only during their second encounter did Sanguinius triumph. Its not like Primarchs could go around bashing Greater Daemons on a whim, Greater Daemons are simply too powerful.

I didn't say Angron wasn't as powerful as Greater Daemons, I said he may be the exception to the norm considering hes a Daemon _Primarch_. Also regarding Angron's Apoc rules, having a 'bodyguard' of Bloodthirsters may not literally mean he goes around with a bodyguard of Greater Daemons, TT rules never transfer well to background fluff after all.

The Chaos Daemons Codex is generally speaking - conclusive about the fact that Greater Daemons are more powerful than Daemon Princes for the most part anyway. But as I said there may be some exceptions. Two examples may be Angron and Doombreed, who I would say are more powerful than all but the most powerful Greater Daemons (Skarbrand & An'ggrath being two notable ones).


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

No in the fluff Angron had a bodyguard of 12 greater daemons of khorne when he took on the grey knights. I believe this was stated in a article around the same time daemonhunters were released WD 279 or thereabouts.

Any way Angron should replace the roar of hate with say all units within certain range must take a leadership test at -1 leadership or go to ground.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im reading Dead Sky Black Sun, and in that it mentions a Struggle between a Powerful (fuking Khorn again, is there any other chaos god, I mean really) DP fighting his Rival a GD. The DP lost to the GD and was force into a daemonic train, while the GD poured itself into the Khornate armore called Heart of the Blood that was feature in Storm of Iron novel. So on the whole I would say DPs generally rate second to GDs. I think Primarch DPs rate much higher though. Like on lvl with Fate Weaver and Skarbrand.


----------



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I think so also. In the old Epic game the daemon primarchs were larger in stature than their greater daemon counterparts. I don't know any stats or rules concerning the game, but I think just by showing that they could be. Ofcourse these Daemon Primarchs were almost as tall as Titans.

EDIT: After looking at the epic models again I realized they were the same size, the Daemon Primarchs and the Greater Daemons, hmm interesting


----------



## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I can see your point its desappointing when powerful beings... well arnt powerful. That said look at the Ctan. I mean the Nightbringer is respectfully tough, i'm not arguing with that. But hes the reaper, the god damned reaper himself and he can be insta gibbed by the Swarmlord. the fluff talks abuot him extinguishing entire Star systems but one titan could destroy him in a shot. 

Somethings just dont come out as tough as they should.


----------



## reedschel (Apr 15, 2010)

he cant be killed by instant death because deamons are immune to this. I agree that he 

could be alot better, but he is really good already. his blade causes instant death, he

has furious charge, 6 I, and with a bodygaurd of bloodthirsters he almost unstopable.

p.s. u dont need to have a bodygaurd of two bloodthirsters. but if r going to have a

bodyguard u need at least two.


----------



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

daemons aren't automatically immuned to instant death. Where did you read this?


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

VanitusMalus said:


> daemons aren't automatically immuned to instant death. Where did you read this?


Codex: Chaos Daemons. All Daemons are _Eternal Warriors_.


----------



## Chaosrider (Feb 3, 2010)

new rule against guard: _brain aneurism_ any non-character model within 12" must take a leadership test with -1 Ld, if fail head explodes.

but primarchs were supposed to be end all awesome, then some decided they wanted to be a bit more awesome. But i'd say Angron would be on par with a bloodthirster (i want one!! no two ) stats wise, then have his truck load of special rules.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Bear in mind Angron was beaten by Grey Knights. They have to reflect this in the rules to keep the game fair.

On a side note, a friend of mine wrote his own profile for Angron that ended up costing two thousand points. We pitted it against a 2k army, and he left the enemy in ruins, only a handful of survivors, before he was brought down.

Personally, I think the WD rules are a bit fairer...


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Didnt it take a company of grey knights to mash him down?

And cant DP's hang around in the material 'verser a bit easier as they arent "full" daemons?


----------



## Chaosrider (Feb 3, 2010)

well, there is being truthful to the fluff, and then there is making a fair TT unit...


----------



## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

*posting from work*



Chaosrider said:


> well, there is being truthful to the fluff, and then there is making a fair TT unit...


Absolutely. You have to make a unit that's reasonable to play against, as well as fun for the person wielding it; as such, things like stats for Daemon Primarchs are always going to be more of a _representation_ of their abilities than a true-to-fluff set of stats relative to other units. They'd be ridiculously overpowered if that the case; the art is in making it work in-game. 

Example: Mortarion, the Angel of Death, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, hits you with his scythe. So, what happens? You die. You just _die_. Don't even think of surviving being hit by him, you're a grease spot. Now that's all fine and dandy in the fluff, but it's pants on the tabletop. In real life, Mortarion's _not_ going to roll a 1 if he swings at you, but for the sake of the game he needs to be able to on the tabletop.

Similarly, if Magnus points his finger at you and says 'Shazam!', you _will_ turn into a newt, all things being true to the fluff; but on the tabletop there should be some means of escape/survival no matter how unlikely statistically. Likewise for all the other Daemon Primarchs; I have to say that, as a fluffaholic myself, I'd actually favour making them stupidly hard to kill and extremely dangerous - but also very, very expensive to field. I can see why GW err on the side of caution, though, when it comes to statting up these guys.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree with making them more like characters from Fantasy. After all, Malekith is something like 1500pts on his dragon. Then again, there probably shouldn't be any rules for the Daemon Primarchs as Angron is the only one who has launched an invasion (Two in fact) into the material universe (I believe). Mortarion loads up the plague ships, orders them around and drinks a lot. Magnus sits there hunched over a book before riding his Segway to the room where he keeps his D&D. Finally, Fulgrim. Well you don't wanna know what Fulgrim sits there doing.

Midnight


----------

