# Lords of Change Tactics?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I was just wondering what you all think is the appropriate points level, and best way to kit out a Lord of Change?

I was wondering would it be possible to get one at 1500pts and not gimp the army?

The stats for it are really quite good, 12" movement, Toughness 6, 3++ Save, BS 5, with Bolt, Gaze and Devourer as standard. So I understand why it costs X pts.

My guess would be that the ideal build is - LoC, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Breath of Chaos - 330pts

Would that be right? 

And if thats the case, should I go for a plain Xpts LoC at 1500pts and the buffed one at 1850 - 2000pts?

Also, it would be great to hear from people that have actuallly used the model.

So, what do you think?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I use a Lord of Change at 1500 pts it's fairly fun, in no way points efficient but it's fun. It's upgrades are too expensive though so I would not bother with them at all. Just go for a plain LoC all the time. 

If you're thinking about upgrading him just take Fate Weaver instead.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

For a fun/semi-Competitive list ... could I really fit a LoC into a 1000pt list?

Like so:

*1000pt Chaos Daemon Army (1000pts) *


*HQ*

Lord of Change – 250pts


*ELITES*

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, Fury of Khorne, Instrument of Chaos, 135pts


*TROOPS*

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, – 95pts

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, – 95pts

10 Bloodletters of Khorne, Fury of Khorne – 170pts


*FAST ATTACK*

5 Seekers of Slaanesh, Transfixing Gaze – 90pts 


*HEAVY SUPPORT*

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Aura of Decay, Daemonic Gaze – 165pts


Is this list any good lol?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

LoC are very killy even without all the shooty bits. I don't find all the UG's are necessary, their base abilities are great along with the ability to use both without the upgrade. I run my LoC with fate, so he does all the shooty things and the LoC is like scotty pippen was to michael jordan. All in all he's over priced for what he does, but don't let that deter you!


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Ravner298 said:


> LoC are very killy even without all the shooty bits. I don't find all the UG's are necessary, their base abilities are great along with the ability to use both without the upgrade. I run my LoC with fate, so he does all the shooty things and the LoC is like scotty pippen was to michael jordan. All in all he's over priced for what he does, but don't let that deter you!


So thats two votes for the no upgrades (except for larger games obviously). Thanks for taking the time to answer and share experiences using the LoC.

I had a look over its profile again, and its that Toughness 6, 4 Wounds, 3++ Save that is making me drool lol.

As you said, whilst not a CC monster like the Bloodthrister or Keeper, it should be able to hold its own against opponent Troop Choices, and non-killy units in general, such as Havocs, Devastaors, Long Fangs etc, and the fact its an MC with 12" Jump Pack range, means it can always charge any Land Raiders or High Toughness vehicles it misses with Bolt.

Also, I actually think its fairly costed. Its got two (strongish) shooting attacks, a sword which forces lds test or suffer instant death (not that great), with Flight, BS5, T6, W4 etc etc and the holy of holy 3++ save.

But does it make 'Shooty' Daemon Princes redundant, or do you want as much BS5 shooty goodness as a list can manage?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I run the tzeentch globetrotters for my CD. Fate, LoC, 3 shooty winged dps, in a giant ball of fast moving MC reroll-y death. I guess it depends on what youre trying to do and what battlefield rolls you need to fill. LoC is great AT, still very strong in CC (but not khorne/slaanesh strong) and highly mobile. 3++ is very strong for a t6 w4 winged model. (3++/3++ even better  ) 

Between the 5 of them + 30 something horrors? My shooting phase is absolutely devestating. BS 5 on all the guys that matter? yeah. Enough said


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm just wondering what people's experiences have been with Fateweaver.

Is he worth it?

A LoC with Master of Sorcery, We are Legion and Breath of Chaos is 330pts

Kairo is 333pts has all the powers, which means Boon of Mutation extra over that previous build, and has a 6" wide re-roll ++ saves rule.

On the other hand he is minus 1 Strength 1 Toughness 1 Wound 1 Initiative and 1 Attack.

So a LoC with all the powers Kairos has (minus his unique re-roll ability) is 360pts whereas Kairos is 333pts.

So for an extra 27pts you get 1 extra Strength, Toughness, Wound and Attack.

Am I missing something or does Kairos not seem worth it?

(Also if your unlucky, Kairos can be killed in one wound, although its a statistically minimal chance).

So do you think Kairos is better than an upgraded LoC?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Rerolling all your saves is boss. Fateweaver is better than an LoC.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> So do you think Kairos is better than an upgraded LoC?


By himself? absolutely not. If you run a list that really takes advantage of his rerollable save? HELL YEAH. Grab 10 dice and see how many wounds you lose to a 3+/3+, and if the enemy is foolish and tries to kill the other things around him instead of the fateweaver, they'll regret it in a hurry.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

So what kind of units suit a Kairos list?

The three I can think of are:

1. Pink Horrors w/ Bolt 

2. Bloodcrushers (obviously because of FateCrusher lists)

3. _Tzeentch _'shooty' Daemon Princes


Anything I'm missing?

Also, do you think Kairos is viable at 1000pts? In other words can he make or justify his points cost?

I'm inclined to think that it might in fact be possible, although very risky.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

there's a fatecrusher variant that uses fiends instead, but it's the same idea. At 1k points? He's got quite the price tag. He will put out some damage and surely absorb his share in return, however one unlucky roll and youre out 1/3rd your army....I say do it haha, I've said it before, you have to love randomness if you play daemons in the first place.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Ravner298 said:


> there's a fatecrusher variant that uses fiends instead, but it's the same idea. At 1k points? He's got quite the price tag. He will put out some damage and surely absorb his share in return, however one unlucky roll and youre out 1/3rd your army....I say do it haha, I've said it before, you have to love randomness if you play daemons in the first place.


That's exactly what I think. I play daemons because I love the models, the fluff and don't worry for a second about 'lady luck'.

It takes a while to get used to, but I've stopped for example, working out what is the safest place to deepstrike in terms of scatter. Instead, I choose what would be the best places and scatter be damned!!!

I actually proxied a LoC today and it more than made up for its large points cost in a 1000pt game, I chose a 280pt Loc+Breath. It just ripped through the enemy, it killed 2 Rhino's, about 14 Marines, and took out Kharn the Betrayer. 

He absorbed so much shooting and even CC because of his 3++ save, so a re-rollable 3++ must be a flipping nightmare.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> He absorbed so much shooting and even CC because of his 3++ save, so a re-rollable 3++ must be a flipping nightmare.


eeeeexactly :aggressive:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> I was just wondering what you all think is the appropriate points level, and best way to kit out a Lord of Change?


I think it needs minimal upgrades honestly.



> I was wondering would it be possible to get one at 1500pts and not gimp the army?


Eh... it wouldn't completely ruin the list, but I think two Tzeentchian Heralds are better at that level as they're a little cheaper and are overall shootier (since there are two of them).



> My guess would be that the ideal build is - LoC, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery, Breath of Chaos - 330pts
> 
> Would that be right?


No, that would be wrong. At that point, take Fateweaver. He costs less than 5 points more.



> And if thats the case, should I go for a plain Xpts LoC at 1500pts and the buffed one at 1850 - 2000pts?
> 
> Also, it would be great to hear from people that have actuallly used the model.


I think if you're going to upgrade a Lord of Change you might as well just take Fateweaver. He doesn't fight as well, but he does a lot more for the army.



D-A-C said:


> So what kind of units suit a Kairos list?
> 
> The three I can think of are:
> 
> ...


Fateweaver tends to lend himself well to a lot of lists - most, in fact.

The best units in a Fateweaver army are the tougher ones usually, because they benefit a lot from the re-rolled Invulnerable saves. I used to run a list with some Plaguebearers for objective taking and people would have absolute fits trying to kill them when Fateweaver was around. So any Tzeentch or Nurgle Daemon (except Beasts, because they fucking suck) as well as Bloodcrushers and Daemon Princes are all fantastic with Fateweaver around.

Taking Fateweaver at 1K _can_ work, but I would think that it would make for some boring games as a lot of the time they would be decided on if the enemy can kill Fateweaver or not.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I think it needs minimal upgrades honestly.
> 
> Just adding that today I ran a LoC with Breath and he played brilliantly. I was suprised that you don't really need We Are Legion if you plan your targets carefully. Obviously it would help, but its not mandatory by any means.
> 
> ...


Comments above in green.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Bleh, please don't reply inside the quote tags, it makes responding a lot more work.



> Just adding that today I ran a LoC with Breath and he played brilliantly. I was suprised that you don't really need We Are Legion if you plan your targets carefully. Obviously it would help, but its not mandatory by any means.


Yeah, I should've said what I meant a little better. I think that a Lord of Change with _some_ upgrades is fine, like adding Breath. I just don't think that upgrading him a ton is worthwhile.



> But what about my argument that for 365pts you can get all the upgrades on a LoC, so your the same as Fateweaver except for his specially re-roll on ++ Saves, but you have +1 to Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, Iniative, and Attacks, and can't be instant killed by a lucky shot. Isn;t that worth 32pts?


I would say that it isn't, simply because a Lord of Change isn't intended to be a combat monster - if you want to crush face in close combat, you take a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets. The idea behind a Lord of Change is that you have all of your nasty spells (though not technically psychic powers, you get what I mean) on a durable platform that doesn't immediately roll over and die in close combat. Fateweaver is still _really_ tough due to his re-rollable Invulnerable save so you simply don't need the raw stat increases. You end up paying more points for a negligible increase in effectiveness.

Also, not generating re-rolls for nearby Daemons is _huge_. I'm not sure if you've tried Fateweaver before, but I suggest you use him for a bunch of games in a row and see the huge difference he makes. It's really something else.

Fateweaver tends to lend himself well to a lot of lists - most, in fact.



> Good call, I hadn't thought about this at all. What I love about Daemons (and most people hate) is I can play my list different depending on what opponent I face. I can DS aggressive or defensive, onto objectives, near objectives, in a group, as indivdual units etc etc. So a one way play list would annoy me.


Yeah, having an adaptable army is really nice, it stops things from getting stale.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I love my LoC, it is quite probably the best painted model that I've ever done... but I hate using him in games. I think that regardless of why you take him there is a better option out there... and he's not good enough as an all-rounder to justify the extra points.

GUO/KoS/Bloodthirster do far more damage then LoC in combat (and are cheaper/equal)
DP/HoT cahriots can do as much shooting for cheaper
Fateweaver does a bit of everything and is just plain awesome.

Only reason I would take a LoC would be in an Apoc mono-tzeentch army where he can be Fateweaver's bodyguard, otherwise I would take 1-2 of the things from the list above.
In the few games I have used a LoC (just to get the model on the table) I've run him with breath, and even though he won me one of the games (charging a 50 guardsman block and holding it combat for about 6+ rounds of combat letting 2 horrors just walk round the combat to grab an objective) I still didn't think he was worth the points... just give me a GUO with cloud of flies anytime (all time favorite daemon model/unit).


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

The problem as I see it is that I'm such a stickler once I get my mind set on things.

I've gone off Heralds because of the cost+time involved in converting the damn things, you need usually three boxes to make one - Herald, Chariot and things that pull the chariot.

Plus I fell in love with the Fateweaver model since it was released, and even though I suck at painting and hate working with metal I'm determined to get it (unless it is due to come in resin any time soon???).

Of all the GD's the LoC is the most appealing from a fluff & gaming perspective.

My main problem is ... Boon of Mutation. Yep. That's right.

In all honesty I prefer a LoC, WaL, MoS, BoC for 330pts to Fateweaver any day ... but then I want Boon dammit!!!

I want to be able to get stuck into CC use my rubbish LD test Instant Death Sword and get my crappy chance at turning someone into a mess of gooey arms and legs that can help me in combat next turn. 

So that means I need to pay 360pts and that's just too much. What a fine line huh?

Maybe I should bite the bullet and just pay the 360pts? It is divisible by 9 after all, maybe that's a sign?


Edit: You are right though that x2 'shooty' Herald or even a single 'shooty' Tzeentch Prince would be just as good. That's kind of annoying as well lol.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> My main problem is ... Boon of Mutation. Yep. That's right.
> 
> In all honesty I prefer a LoC, WaL, MoS, BoC for 330pts to Fateweaver any day ... but then I want Boon dammit!!!
> 
> ...


Well, I doubt we'll be able to convince you to not do it, so I for one won't bother. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Well, I doubt we'll be able to convince you to not do it, so I for one won't bother. ¯_(ツ)_/¯


I think how I'll get off the notion is by playtesting it. We only really play 1000-1500pt games. So if I start losing miserably with my over 1/5 cost of my army LoC I'll get put off quickly. I may favour fluff, but I still hate losing in a manner where I had no hope.

I'm on a high because of how well my 280pt LoC did, but maybe after realising that defeating Kharn in CC is the exception rather than the norm, I might be more inclined to listen.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

I did some mathhammer and rolling, LoC will win in all situations (LoC charge, Kharn Charge, no charge) unless kharn gets realy lucky.

But to put this inperspective Kharne costs 165 point vs a 280 point mc LoC. The T6 and 3++ are just to strong to get through, even on his charge he would get no wounds off almost as much as he would inflict a wound and rarely get multiple wounds. While a Kharn is a cc monster, the LoC is just in another league, points and profile wise, its not even an acheivement killing him.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

sounds like you should just use fateweaver if youre going to kit out a LoC to the cost of 360 pts!


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Ravner298 said:


> sounds like you should just use fateweaver if youre going to kit out a LoC to the cost of 360 pts!


I know, I'm actually a bit confused as to which is best.

If I want a regular LoC I want him to have all the powers.

So I might as well take Kairos for cheaper and get tasty ++ re-rolls.

But I also want to right my own fluff, and I'm terrified of losing 333pts to a flipping lucky bolter, or worse, as my Nephew plays Tau, Firewarriors!!!.

I think every round of shooting (against Kairos) I'd faint.

At the same time, as I said, thats definately the model I'm getting so...

I don't really know at the moment.

Heralds are more competitive but an absolute b*tch to convert for someone who has only recently completed painting his first full squad for 40k.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> I think every round of shooting (against Kairos) I'd faint.


Or you can just laugh as he shrugs off everything that shoots at him like I do. For reference sake, out of the 11 games I've played with fate (@1850, so alot more coming his way) He's only bowed out early once.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

It's really not all that nerve wracking. Most people aren't even aware that Fateweaver can disappear after each wound and will give up quickly after shooting at him a few times. Even if they do know, it takes a _lot_ of firepower to make him fail a save which keeps other units in your army safe.

I used Fateweaver from when the Daemon Codex came out in late 4th edition until about a year into 5th and I literally never lost him early. If he died, he died the normal way.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> It's really not all that nerve wracking. Most people aren't even aware that Fateweaver can disappear after each wound and will give up quickly after shooting at him a few times. Even if they do know, it takes a _lot_ of firepower to make him fail a save which keeps other units in your army safe.
> 
> I used Fateweaver from when the Daemon Codex came out in late 4th edition until about a year into 5th and I literally never lost him early. If he died, he died the normal way.


What I'll do is give him a proxy test and let you know how I get on.

Usually we play 1000pt games for proxy testing but I'll only use him in 1500pt games. As you said earlier, a list with him at 1000pts would be dull, as it would play one way, and then if he gets killed, its definately game over.

My question would be, when using him, how much should I deepstrike with him?

I know its list dependant but I always use Bloodcrushers, 10 Bloodletters, 10 Daemonettes, 10 Pink Horrors (2 squads of 5 with bolt), 5-10 Seekers or Hounds and a Nurgle Daemon Prince.

My inclination would be to actually put pink horrors near him so they can shoot as a wave with Kairos, and put the Daemonettes and Bloodletters out in front to walk forward with re-rollable saves, with shooting constantly from behind.

What I would then do is leave my Bloodcrushers (5 at 1500pts), Seekers/Hounds and my Daemon Prince out away from Kairos in good locations and basically say, 'go ahead, shoot me, or ignore me at your peril'.

Does that sound roughly about right, as I don't want to have to modify my basic list too much to incorporate Kairos, rather make him work for the template I have already.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

honestly I'd drop fateweaver with the crushers and DP in wave 1 (plus horrors with bolt I guess if there's armor on the table) and absorb -everything-


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