# New HellBrute sighted



## revilo44

i know this is a small picture but it may give us an insight with what's happing with Chaos . i knew that the hell brute (and maybe other stuff form the starter set) would get made as GW could never pass up a change to make money.


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## Tawa

Here's hoping! :good:


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## Einherjar667

We literally posted this at the exact same minute.


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## Jolnir

Very nice model. Guess I'll have to encourage my brother to start taking some CSM into his CD collection.


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## revilo44

I might buy one to add my army. As it a cool model



Einherjar667 said:


> We literally posted this at the exact same minute.


 i know isn't that it weird lol


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## Bindi Baji

Looks good, having to squint a lot to see it though



Einherjar667 said:


> We literally posted this at the exact same minute.


Rubbish, Revilo clearly manipulated the time vortex and nobbled the doo-hicky so it said the same time :grin:


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## Einherjar667

revilo44 said:


> i know isn't that it weird lol


yours wins, you have the photo linked.


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## Tawa

Bindi Baji said:


> Rubbish, Revilo clearly manipulated the time vortex and nobbled the doo-hicky so it said the same time :grin:


That would only have worked by splicing the widgrum into the wiring of the doo hickey but you would have to also bypass the twangdoodle or you would have a splungegarble overload.

Did you not listen in class!?


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## revilo44

Bindi Baji said:


> Looks good, having to squint a lot to see it though
> 
> 
> 
> Rubbish, Revilo clearly manipulated the time vortex and nobbled the doo-hicky so it said the same time :grin:


dont you know im one of chaos gods. 


anyway some close ups for u guys. i think it looks real as its not a super high quality picture and Mayble from visions as there is not much writing but i could be wrong. just waiting for slaanesh one now, they always leave him/her/it out .


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## venomlust

Awesooooome!

It would be so sweet if these are real. Doesn't mean we're guaranteed other kits too, but it fills me with hope. Really, I'm trying to fabricate some causal link to a Khorne supplement.


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## LukeValantine

Glad they are releasing a model, but its a to little to late for me as I already have 4 dreads at this point. Good news fro people getting into the army, but people that wanted dreads probably already have them.


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## Tawa

venomlust said:


>


*fap! fap! fap!* :crazy:


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## venomlust

Fair enough, it doesn't make their rules any better. But if you want to mess with them, at least you aren't restricted to a multimelta and power fist.

Can always try them in a Dreadclaw.


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## LukeValantine

Well I got so fed up waiting I actually got the forge world models so they are armed with the weapons I actually wanted.

On the plus side I got some shinny forge world dreds out of GW pissing the bed so I guess its win win. Now if the model release came with a rule adjustment (Av+1) to justify their drastically larger LoS profile then I would get them in a heart beat.


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## Kreuger

These look really nice. Though that thunder hammer arm is pretty award looking. The Khorne one even looks good with bunny ears (of rage).

I have a ton of chaos dreads, more than 7 I think. 

I particularly like that these have more marine like shoulder pads, they definitely add to the giant mutated look. 

I agree helbrutes should be more resilient to make up for their lack of usefulness. +1 av might be too much, but I could see granting then the same rules as daemon engines, much like forge fiends or obliterators.


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## Adramalech

;-; it's so beautiful... are we getting anything else with it?


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## Ddraig Cymry

Doesn't look terrible (I never like the Helbrute to begin with, to daemony for my Night Lords), interesting to see what kind of conversions people end up doing with it.


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## revilo44

Adramalech said:


> ;-; it's so beautiful... are we getting anything else with it?


I hope so. Some rumor a while ago said that there wpuld be chosen and cultists and correct if I'm wrong here but a new choas space marine box set.


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## Adramalech

revilo44 said:


> I hope so. Some rumor a while ago said that there wpuld be chosen and cultists and correct if I'm wrong here but a new choas space marine box set.


My kingdom! The head of john the baptist! ANYTHING FOR A PROPER MODEL WAVE!


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## Bindi Baji

Tawa said:


> That would only have worked by splicing the widgrum into the wiring of the doo hickey but you would have to also bypass the twangdoodle or you would have a splungegarble overload.
> 
> Did you not listen in class!?


Or you could just reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, or failing that press the big red button



revilo44 said:


> dont you know im one of chaos gods.


The Chaos God of better quality pictures, fancy a job on white dwarf? :laugh:


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## revilo44

Bindi Baji said:


> Or you could just reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, or failing that press the big red button
> 
> 
> 
> The Chaos God of better quality pictures, fancy a job on white dwarf? :laugh:


I couldn't do a worse job then what they now with visions.

The rumor bucket thickens 


> Via Natfka
> I agree, I like these, and look forward to seeing better pics. Not to mention rules wise we very well could be seeing some upgrades coming to them in the form of a new supplement that is rumored.


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## torealis

Looks like its from the next issue of Visions...


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## Tawa

bindi baji said:


> or you could just reverse the polarity of the neutron flow, or failing that press the big red button


do nots presz ze buttonn!!!!


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## venomlust

No, oh Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah, don't press the red button!!!!


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## Adramalech

"Danger warning levels hissed out loud, I saw the silver lining hidden in the mushroom cloud."

DO IT! PRESS THE RED BUTTON!


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## Einherjar667

We need a flux capacitor and 1.21 Gigawatts of Lightening, Marty!


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## Adramalech

I pressed the red button  Look at the pretty fireworks.


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## bitsandkits

hmm thats interesting, could this add weight to the new starter set rumours we were hearing about?


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## Adramalech

bitsandkits said:


> hmm thats interesting, could this add weight to the new starter set rumours we were hearing about?


Considering the knight titan biting into GW's production budget, I'd say "no."


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## bitsandkits

Adramalech said:


> Considering the knight titan biting into GW's production budget, I'd say "no."


I wouldnt worry about the budget, the knights are gonna sell like hot cakes, the wraithknight did and thats eldar only , they will be fighting at the till for the imperial knights.


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## Adramalech

bitsandkits said:


> I wouldnt worry about the budget, the knights are gonna sell like hot cakes, the wraithknight did and thats eldar only, they will be fighting at the till for the imperial knights.


I'm not sure exactly how a business like that works, but I'm pretty sure if their decision regarding whether or not to produce the new starter box is pending on the knight titan sales, we won't be seeing the new starter box until 2016 at the earliest.

A company as successful as GW wouldn't make a gamble like going over budget, in the hopes that both of the big products they're making by doing so will sell like hot cakes, even if it were a relatively safe one.

If, however, both were already in the budget... well, that's a different story.

TL;DR: don't hold your breath.


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## Bindi Baji

Adramalech said:


> I pressed the red button  Look at the pretty fireworks.


There was supposed to be a little sign that flashed up and stated "Don't press the red button - again" first



Adramalech said:


> A company as successful as GW wouldn't make a gamble like going over budget, in the hopes that both of the big products they're making by doing so will sell like hot cakes, even if it were a relatively safe one.


That would sound a little too much like the way a governmental department works or a bank,
GW are neither of these.


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## Adramalech

Bindi Baji said:


> That would sound a little too much like the way a governmental department works or a bank,
> GW are neither of these.


I think it sounds exactly like a company that wants to maintain their enormous profit margins.


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## Bindi Baji

Adramalech said:


> I think it sounds exactly like a company that wants to maintain their enormous profit margins.


Which is why I was agreeing with you :so_happy:


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## Adramalech

Bindi Baji said:


> Which is why I was agreeing with you :so_happy:


Ohhhh. Okay, cool.


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## Achaylus72

Well i have to get the new Helbrute kit, but i need 25 for my army, also they look eeeeeffffing awesome.


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## Nacho libre

Amazing model, shite rules


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## revilo44

here is another hellburte 











I think we can agree that GW lockdown is going well. 


These are the rumors about chaos marines from earlier in jan if you missed it or want to recap 



> From January 29th
> There have been a lot of rumors about Chaos Marines coming in the very near future, as well as a later release down the road. While most of the information came from a single source here on Faeit 212, it was very detailed, and later other rumor sites started to pick up on the information.
> 
> This is a full compilation of what is on the road, and I had been trying to get to doing this for several days to get everything in one nice compilation. Please remember that these are all still rumors.
> 
> 
> via Sources on Faeit 212
> Chaos Space Marines/ Chosen Box set
> and Havoc Box Set
> Got a bit of a news item for you. I've seen a few pictures of a sprue with a number of finished models. The sprue and models in question are for a new chaos space marine infantry kit. They are supposedly intended to be a replacement for the standard chaos infantry kit but also have options for chaos chosen within the kit ala the space wolves packs' wolf guard.
> 
> Design wise the models seemed to be a mix of ornate and non ornate armour pieces. There were a number of power weapons, combi weapons and what looked to be an autocannon in plastic. I was told that hopefully their release would not be far off and would be released with a few other chaos kits.
> 
> One of the new kits would be a plastic havoc boxset. With lots of bits to add to the models.
> 
> On the release date it's implied that the kits would be released in the 4th week of the month in the new weekly white dwarf.
> 
> gw have identified a number of issues with the chaos line with the main 3 being 1. The dated look of a number of models. 2. The hybrid nature of many kits 3. The lack of a generic non God marked lord outside of dark vengeance
> 
> There is to be a plastic clampack lord released in suitably ornate armour. The lord is mono posed and comprised of 5 pieces. This model has supposedly been designed as to be easy to kit bash/convert to allow chaos players to use the new updated power armour bits on.
> 
> Regarding the chosen. All power weapon variants are in the box with the lance and axe sharing the same body but with a separate head piece. Icons are included as is a number of God specific pads and heads. The kit has an "outrageous" number of head options.
> 
> Regarding the havoc. The havoc and new chosen/ standard marine kit share a core sprue containing 5 complete marine's. The havoc then has a number of unique sprues containing weaponry, backpacks and torso options. The havoc also boast an impressive number of heads with many appearing as mk2/3 heads with optical upgrades.
> 
> The icons are similar in design to the current plastic ones with one icon of each type being included. God specific pieces include a number of shoulder pads bearing a gods Mark and around 4 heads for each God. There is one unhelmeted head for each God excluding tzeentch which I think is meant to be due to the rubric fluff. It looks like you can add the finecast (noise marines and thousand sons) upgrade sprues to each unit to get a roughly full squad of marked marines.
> 
> The cultist and hellbrute models have been completed to my limited knowledge however I can't confirm seeing them. Release wise I have been told they are due but not so soon, they are meant to have been held off for another wave release alongside 2 more kits as yet un announced to me. An astute reader can most likely guess what these will be with finecast going the way of the dodo.
> 
> Chosen are in the 24 pounds Mark with havoc being similar in price. The lord is alas around the same price as the space marine captain/ librarian.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a much more detailed look at the new kits today. The lord is armed with a bolt pistol and mace\maul\club thingy.
> 
> The plastic autocannon on the standard squad sprue is suitable long and dangerous looking. It has the option of being belt or box mag fed. One of the chaos torso is basically a giant mutated demonic face with a piece that glues in in between the torso and legs to represent a big ole mouth.
> 
> The chosen/ regular marine kit has 4 sprues. Two core marine sprues that build 5 complete marines each with either bolter of ccw and bolt pistol. It should be noted that not all ccw are chainblades. The arms are the new style wrist and hand on the gun. There's then the command/ chosen sprue which contains power, special, heavy and combi weapons. This sprue also includes torso and head options along with lots of add on pieces. The final sprue contains all your god bits and icons and is smaller than the other sprues
> 
> 
> 
> Chaos Marine Supplement and
> Dark Vengeance Model Releases
> There is a supplement due for release.
> The long war/long crusade
> The name itself is a bit of an unknown to me but that's the general gist of it.
> 
> Contains fluff on what the legions have been doing for the last 10,000 years.
> 
> Rulewise any model with the veteran of the long war rule may purchase additional specialist skills represented by the universal rules. The skills vary in price with fear being one of the cheapest skills. Certain units may not take certain skills I.e havocs may not take fleet.
> 
> Confirmed skills so far are, fear,infiltrate,tank hunter, relentless,outflank?, stubborn, preferred enemy, shred and fleet.
> 
> Fear was around 5 points a squad with infiltrate being the most expensive skill available.
> 
> On an unrelated note expect a fair amount of metal models to disappear from sale within the next two ish months as gw is melting down metal stock again and selling it off.
> 
> 
> 
> Question and Answer Session
> Thanks for the excellent rumours! 1) is the new vet skill permanent to the squad, unlike a banner?
> 2) Any idea if it can be used with the BL supplement, or just the codex?
> 1.Skills are permament.
> 2. The supplement can be used with ANY chaos supplement not just the BL supplement. Future supplements may have restrictions on what skills may be taken however
> 
> Is FNP purchasable?
> FNP is not purchasable I'm afraid
> 
> Do you know if all of the skills will be available to all units with VotLW, or if each unit will have a separate selection of skills to choose from? On a related note, will it be a flat cost to upgrade or unit or will different units have to pay different amounts for each skill?
> Basically each skill has a list of units underneath it . Any unit on the list may take the skill. Certain units are not on the list due to whatever reason. The example I was given was havoc can't take the fleet skill.
> All skills cost the same no matter what unit takes them.
> 
> Are the different legions mentioned in the supplement, or is this just a way to expand upon the Chaos Marine codex? Can you take more than one upgrade?
> Yup, there's a limit of three skills I think per squad however. To answer your original question the legions are mentioned in fluff only. The supplement is really just Codex chaos space marines +1.
> 
> if it unlocks Stubborn at a decent unit price.... Man I'll be bringing some big ol CSM blobs to the party.
> Stubborn was one of the cheaper skills I think, at around 8 or ten points. I'm not sure if that's a decent price as I don't play sixth ed
> 8 or 10 for the whole squad right??
> All prices are for the whole unit. Hq's skills are 5pts each
> 
> Can you still take mark upgrades while also taking these vet upgrades?
> Marks can still be taken by the squad along with banners.
> 
> what's the projected release date for this mini-supplement?
> This is a bit of a mystery to me, it's a week 4 release in the new weekly white dwarf, all I really know is its coming soon. I'm expecting it to be out within 3 months at max
> 
> Can Plague marines take infiltrate? Can Terminators take infiltrate? Does shred apply to all weapons, or just melee weapons? Thanks!
> Terminator's can't take infiltrate, plague marines can I believe. Shred is for melee weapons only
> I'm not sure about the infiltrate on the thousand sons. Fearless is a skill that pretty much every unit can take, terminator included
> 
> can mutilators get fleet?
> I don't think oblits or mutilators can take any skills at all, I will have to double check in a few days time to confirm for certain
> 
> Can HQ's with VotLW take any of the USR upgrades?
> Yep, hq's can take the skills, they have access to every skill I think
> 
> If I can put Stuborn on my CSMs and not have it be shot out like the fearless banner, then assuming it's no more then 25 points, I think that will solve the biggest problem for CSMs as a unit, leadership.
> Stubborn was around 10 points as far as I can remember
> 
> Will the Rumored models (New CSMs, Lord, Etc.) be released alongside this supplement?
> Yesh.
> 
> Is there anything else in this supplement, let's say FOC modification?
> Is Infiltration really costy?
> Nope its nothing but skills I'm afraid. I'm no too sure if it's a full supplement or a big dataslate. I wasn't paying that much attention to begin with.
> Infiltration is 20pts a unit
> HQ skills are 5pts each
> All other units share the same skill price
> 
> Future?
> Future digital products WILL include free stuff for units of a comparable quality to chapter tactics.
> 
> i just want something to give my noise marine rending so i can pretend that they are palatine blades
> Rending may be on the skill lists. I can't confirm for a few days
> 
> Does the unit ~have~ to take the VotLW upgrade in order to qualify to be able to take an available USR upgrade on the unit?
> For now yes, future downloadable content is likely to change this or make the Votlw upgrade free
> 
> I also suspect that none of the Walkers can benefit from this?
> Walkers can benefit from a few skills, tank hunter being one which I can remember currently
> 
> from your perspective is the pairing between the unit and what the skills offer at least viable?
> Most units can take the majority of the skill sets. There are essentially pointless upgrade skills but you can still take them for whatever reason. It's very much a choose whatever you want kinda thing
> 
> All I play is Thousand Sons. Not really interested in what happens with Mark of Tzeentch CSMs but I am interested if you could describe what you know about the plastic god-specific bits (if anything)?
> Tzeentch heads are similar to the current thousand son heads, on head is also a very nice bird mask helmet.
> Nurgle heads include a mixture of gasmasky heads and a head with its brain exposed.
> Khorne heads are horney, spikey helmetty heads.
> Slaanesh heads include a hellraiser Esq pinhead. Helmets heads have stretched skin, tounges and big speaker grills
> 
> Now, it is a 10man kit? Are there any "sorcerer" looking things, or a tabard? Maybe a nice force staff?
> It is a ten man kit, there are a few tabardy things that go in between legs. The spear could be possibly converted to a staff without too much trouble I think
> 
> o Walkers can also get these skills!? All our Walkers? How does this work, as they can't take Veterans of the Long War - They have just access to these skills by default? Will they get further upgrades like Marks/Dedications so they something god-specific?
> 
> 
> Just dreadnoughts, predators and land raiders to my knowledge. I'm not sure how it works with vehicles tbh, I will find out and include it hopefully in my next info batch.
> Marks/dedications are not present CURRENTLY





> via 40k Radio
> Also here is what 40k Radio sources later said about these releases.
> On the Chaos Space Marine Releases. 1) Look for the stuff to be released beginning of summer. 2) Crimson Slaughter(CSM in the DV starter) might receive a Supplement as well.
> via Bols
> Also Bols had this to say from its sources
> Sources have told us that many of the quick assembly minis in the Dark Vengeance set are getting the full treatment and arriving as fully-optioned multi-part plastic kits. The following are on the way:
> -Helbrute with all the weapon options-Chaos Cultist set with options for Plague Zombies-Chaos Lord in clampack format said to be bits compatible with the existing CSM range.-Chaos Chosen with buckets of god-specific bits including 5 heads per god.-Obliterators/Mutilators combo-kit-Chaos Havocs with all new visual designs for certain weapons.
> Half of these will ship very soon, the other half closer to Summer.


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## Bindi Baji

revilo44 said:


> here is another hellburte


feel like I may have to build a HellBert and a HellErnie now


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## DarkDisciple_Nahum

I'm not sure if I like the hellbrute or not (I have 4 though, 2 were free), but the pic of the red one with the scourge and autocannon looks pretty cool I may have to get one...

Thanks Revilo44! I like the sound of new chosen and havocs! I'm not sure i'm willing to re-do my whole army but we'll see.


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## Tawa

Bindi Baji said:


> feel like I may have to build a HellBert and a HellErnie now


Thanks very much Bindi. I now have to mop coffee off my desk...... :laugh:


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## Khorne's Fist

It's a nice model, but I think I'd stick with the FW ones if I was going Chaos. It's the fleshy bits that put me off more than anything.


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## venomlust

Adramalech said:


> TL;DR: don't hold your breath.


Done and done. *dusts off hands*



Khorne's Fist said:


> It's a nice model, but I think I'd stick with the FW ones if I was going Chaos. It's the fleshy bits that put me off more than anything.


Yeah I'm with you on the flesh. Just the colors in these pictures, though. I'd paint them as some sort of "fleshmetal" metallic color, like Colossus from X-Men.


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## revilo44

i was flipping through weekly and there didn't say anything about chaos so i think we going to have wait till the 1st of march to see.


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## Adramalech

Nacho libre said:


> Amazing model, shite rules


Couldn't agree with you more!

I'm desperately hoping We see this guy on the 28th, and more CSMs on the 7th, 14th, and/or 21st of march.


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## Jacobite

New CSM Supp and it's not based on one of the 4 gods? Really? You know because one of those won't sell at all...


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## Adramalech

jacobite said:


> new csm supp and it's not based on one of the 4 gods? Really? you know because one of those won't sell at all...


wait, wait, wait, what!? there's a new CSM supplement?


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## Einherjar667

Adramalech said:


> wait, wait, wait, what!? there's a new CSM supplement?



Theres a rumor of a "veteran's of the long war" supp, it's mixed in with the god specific chosen lit rumor post.


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## Adramalech

Einherjar667 said:


> Theres a rumor of a "veteran's of the long war" supp, it's mixed in with the god specific chosen lit rumor post.


Well, I suppose it makes sense that we could see another supplement, though I also wouldn't be surprised if it was digital-only at first... I -really- -really- hope this is a proper model wave and not just the helbrute. I need me some shiny new CSMs. The god specific bitz would be nice, too, but I won't hold my breath for those.


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## Einherjar667

You and me both, man, but the chosen are in need of a kit as much as the helbrute so who knows.


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## Adramalech

Einherjar667 said:


> You and me both, man, but the chosen are in need of a kit as much as the helbrute so who knows.


I'm personally hoping we see CSMs, havocs, and bikes, but chosen and cult troops would be nice, too.

Guh. Just thinking about all the conversion possibilities makes me shiver <3


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## Einherjar667

I'd LOVE a god-specific tactical kit!!!! That's #1 on my wishlist


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## Adramalech

Einherjar667 said:


> I'd LOVE a god-specific tactical kit!!!! That's #1 on my wishlist


Yeah, but don't hold your breath on the god-specific bitz part of that wish... at least, don't hold your breath until we know more.

On a slightly unrelated note, I feel like this track is appropriate for the occasion, even if it just ends up being a helbrute release and nothing else.


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## Nacho libre

Adramalech said:


> Couldn't agree with you more!
> 
> I'm desperately hoping We see this guy on the 28th, and more CSMs on the 7th, 14th, and/or 21st of march.


If that was the case I would definitely get one, just for the sake of a good model.


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## Adramalech

Nacho libre said:


> If that was the case I would definitely get one, just for the sake of a good model.


I think there are some opportunities for conversion with the plastic daemon prince kit, if one has the right tools and skillset for the job. Instead of "the black mace" you could have "the iron fist of (name of daemon prince)"


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## Nacho libre

Adramalech said:


> I think there are some opportunities for conversion with the plastic daemon prince kit, if one has the right tools and skillset for the job. Instead of "the black mace" you could have "the iron fist of (name of daemon prince)"


The iron fist of prepare for your prostate exam


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## Adramalech

Nacho libre said:


> The iron fist of prepare for your prostate exam


I like that, but I think "the biggest, blackest fist of anal obliteration" is more fun.


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## venomlust

Always about the butthole, with you guys.


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## Adramalech

venomlust said:


> always about the butthole, with you guys.


teehee you said "butthole"


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## Nacho libre

venomlust said:


> Always about the butthole, with you guys.


<pee wee Herman giggle>


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## Tawa

You said "pee wee" :laugh:


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## Adramalech

Tawa said:


> You said "pee wee" :laugh:


-gigglesnort-


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## Achaylus72

^ this is when children should not have access to the interweb.

Very funny on the penile humour.


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## Adramalech

Achaylus72 said:


> ^ this is when children should not have access to the interweb.
> 
> Very funny on the penile humour.


I am not a child. I am a very childish adult. There is a difference, whether you recognize it or not.

GOOD DAY. -storms out of the thread-


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## Achaylus72

Adramalech said:


> I am not a child. I am a very childish adult. There is a difference, whether you recognize it or not.
> 
> GOOD DAY. -storms out of the thread-


Hey come back, i dig it really i do.


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## venomlust

Man, if you feed them they come back!


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## Adramalech

Achaylus72 said:


> Hey come back, i dig it really i do.


Okay.


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## venomlust

See!


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## Nordicus

So that Helbrute is awesome huh?


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## Gret79

Hang on, was that the topic of this thread I just saw? :laugh:

Why is there no slaanesh helbrute?


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## Tawa

Achaylus72 said:


> penile


:rofl:



Nordicus said:


> So that Helbrute is awesome huh?


They sure are, although I'm biased towards the "Nurgle" one :good:



Gret79 said:


> Why is there no slaanesh helbrute?


Not a real god


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## Firewolf

Gret79 said:


> Hang on, was that the topic of this thread I just saw? :laugh:
> 
> Why is there no slaanesh helbrute?


>> Because Slaanesh get no love from GW anymore.


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## Nordicus

Tawa said:


> Not a real god


I think you misunderstand the meaning of Slaanesh.


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## Gret79

Tawa said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> They sure are, although I'm biased towards the "Nurgle" one :good:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a real god


Lol - 
Slaanesh>Nurgle
Khorne>Nurgle
Tzeentch>Nurgle
Nurgle<Mutilators on toast.


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## revilo44

Firewolf said:


> >> Because Slaanesh get no love from GW anymore.


After starting an slaanesh chaos marine army i feel the pain (pun intended) . slaanesh don't even get a box for they cult marines :cray:


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## venomlust

So, we'll see if this is true very soon: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/02/helbrutes-advanced-orders-on-march-8th.html



> The new Helbrutes seen in leaks a week ago still have a lot of Chaos Marine fans watching the web for any sign of a release date for new models. There are even rumored new Chosen, Havocs, and possibly even a new supplement.
> 
> 
> Following recent trends, if there is a new release coming for Chaos Marines it would follow the recent trends; A model release one week, followed by a book release.
> 
> I for one, would love to see the current model range for Chaos Marines updated to correlate with the models from the Dark Vengeance box set. These models are awesome, and to ignore them permanently would be a great disservice to the hobby.
> 
> Please remember that these are rumors
> 
> via Darnok on Warseer
> As far as I'm informed, the Helbrutes will be available a week after the Knights Codex.
> It won't go up for advance order with the new Warhammer Visions though, as the Knight books have that spot. As far as I know, the Helbrutes release is the 15th (so advance order from 8th).


And later "confirmed" here: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/02/imperial-knight-shipping-and-helbrutes.html



> The idea that white boxes coming with Imperial Knight kits apparently has roused up some of people. Of course, I care less for the drama of a White Box, and just want to pick up my models. So here is a explanation that gets to the heart of the what is going on with the White Boxes for the Imperial Knight release, and why the model will be limited on its release day.
> 
> Also is a confirmation of a Helbrute release in March, and other Chaos kits.
> 
> 
> Please remember that these are rumors, and rumors always require salt.
> 
> via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
> 1.I see all the comments about the reduction in the available Imperial Knights hitting the US recently and thought I would relay the reason. The reason for the delay is not due to US customs but bad weather regarding the shipping. Apparantly 4,000 Imperial Knights were loaded onto a boat and shipped to the US ( I don't when when, still drooling over the vision of 4,000 Imperial Knights on a cargo ship!) and due to bad weather has been delayed. As a result GW have had to fly 1,800 Imperial Knights from the UK affecting stocks for Europe and limiting available numbers on both sides of the pond. The boxes ( as per mail order) are white as the covers are normally acquired from the printers specifically as opposed to boxes available.
> 
> 2. Hellbrute release dates confirmed for March as per your previous post, other Chaos kits to follow. Have not heard anything about a further supplement.


----------



## Badknox

idk where i got this idea but I really thought the leaked pics of the helbrutes were from the March issue of Visions. Which I can now confirm 100% are not in there :/ They must be from an upcomming WD then?


----------



## venomlust

So, the usual back and forth as it is with these rumors: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/02/no-helbrutes-in-warhammer-visions-march.html



> I was told last night that there is no Helbrutes in the upcoming Warhammer Visions magazine. That could very well mean that the pics are from an April edition, or from something else. Really hard to tell at the moment, but the magazine really is only a few hours from being released, and is probably available in many places already.
> 
> 
> So if you can confirm this, it would be greatly appeciated.
> 
> Here is what I was told. Please remember that until confirmed this must be considered a rumor.
> 
> via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
> I've flicked through the Visions magazine no sign of the Helbrute. Lots of Dwarfs and Tau, with a parting shot of a Chaos Warhound and Lord of Skulls.


----------



## Einherjar667

Not surprised the release isn't imminent, there is a LOT on the rumor docket. I'm sure after the Knights are out, it will be either Wood Elves or the new IG, and THEN maybe the Chaos wave. But I am just speculating.


----------



## Ravion

I hope that chaos wave is coming soon I could really use some new mods for my army.


----------



## Macas

Ravion said:


> I hope that chaos wave is coming soon I could really use some new mods for my army.


 Hope so aswell.


----------



## Achaylus72

Yeah i am waiting for the new stuff as i need to fill out my 5 Chaos Chosen squads.


----------



## revilo44

Hum some chaos stuff maybe be coming and i have money :grin: just as planned 


> via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
> i can confirm that this weekend we will be seeing a chaos box art update and the new hellbrute kit aswell as a crimson slaughter codex release


----------



## Tawa

> as well as a crimson slaughter codex release


Ok.....? :scratchhead:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Tawa said:


> Ok.....? :scratchhead:


If it exists it's probably a mini-dex,
at this rate we're due a Zoat Mini Dex any day


----------



## Tawa

Bindi Baji said:


> If it exists it's probably a mini-dex,
> at this rate we're due a Zoat Mini Dex any day


Awesome! :laugh:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Tawa said:


> Awesome! :laugh:


Personally my choice would be an ambull minidex but seeing as it's likely to consist of one choice(following lotd), maybe not


----------



## Tawa

Bindi Baji said:


> Personally my choice would be an ambull minidex but seeing as it's likely to consist of one choice(following lotd), maybe not


If we're going down that route, then I want Enslavers! :good:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Tawa said:


> If we're going down that route, then I want Enslavers! :good:


and not forgetting DA fans with the long awaited watchers in the dark mini-dex
((Deathly silence, somewhere a pin drops-not a metaphorical pin))

((((tumbleweed blows through forum))))


----------



## Tawa




----------



## Justindkates

Bindi Baji said:


> and not forgetting DA fans with the long awaited watchers in the dark mini-dex
> ((Deathly silence, somewhere a pin drops-not a metaphorical pin))
> 
> ((((tumbleweed blows through forum))))


From the shadows tiny terrors, they carry helmets and sneak back into the rock. Coming 3-12-2014 

CODEX Watchers In The Dark 

:laugh:


----------



## venomlust

Justindkates said:


> From the shadows tiny terrors, they carry helmets and sneak back into the rock. Coming 3-12-2014
> 
> CODEX Watchers In The Dark
> 
> :laugh:


Written by Matt Ward.

The Wardian twist: They're really Squats in robes, and had to kill some Sisters of Battle once or twice.


----------



## Gret79

but they really want to be ultramarines...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Gret79 said:


> but they really want to be ultramarines...


They started life as Watchers in The Dark and hope to eventually become Ultramarines

Hmm

40k The Musical Featuring music written by Andrew Lloyd Webber
includes the hit songs
"One day - I want to be an Ultramarine" performed by The Watchers
and 
"They Say It's Wonderful to be an Ultramarine" performed by the Sanguinor
and finally
"Nom nom nom" Performed by Hive Fleet Behemoth


----------



## venomlust

Bindi Baji said:


> 40k The Musical Featuring music written by Andrew Lloyd Webber
> includes the hit songs
> "One day - I want to be an Ultramarine" performed by The Watchers
> and
> "They Say It's Wonderful to be an Ultramarine" performed by the Sanguinor
> and finally
> "Nom nom nom (Ultramarines Taste the Best!)" Performed by Hive Fleet Behemoth


The most recent press release included the text in blue. It's the big song and dance number at the end of the final act.


----------



## Gret79

AFAIK, Ward is also going on a tour called '50 attacks on the charge with instant death'
Stars perfoming include
Draigo - 'I am the one and only'
Calgar - 'I punched a god and I liked it'
The Nightbringer -'Pokemon theme'
Fantasy Chaos demons - 'Breakstuff'

Supported by the Blood Ravens who've just finshed their thq/relic tour and will be performing their smash hits 'Spess Mahrines' and 'Steel Reihn'


----------



## Bindi Baji

Gret79 said:


> The Nightbringer -'Pokemon theme'


Snigger....
Slightly different if the creatures you are trying to catch want to tear you limb from limb


----------



## Tawa

Gret79 said:


> AFAIK, Ward is also going on a tour called '50 attacks on the charge with instant death'
> Stars perfoming include
> Draigo - 'I am the one and only'
> Calgar - 'I punched a god and I liked it'
> The Nightbringer -'Pokemon theme'
> Fantasy Chaos demons - 'Breakstuff'
> 
> Supported by the Blood Ravens who've just finshed their thq/relic tour and will be performing their smash hits 'Spess Mahrines' and 'Steel Reihn'



You forgot Horus with his cover of "The Great Pretender".


----------



## nevynxxx

Tawa said:


> You forgot Horus with his cover of "The Great Pretender".


Not sure the legionaries would be happy with their Big Bad being "happy and Gay, like a clown."


----------



## Bindi Baji

nevynxxx said:


> Not sure the legionaries would be happy with their Big Bad being "happy and Gay, like a clown."


To be fair the entire legion are in denial, 
it's a well known fact that the main reason for their becoming "The Black Legion" was because they all shaved off their 'taches and pretended that Horus wasn't "Big Gay Al"


----------



## Adramalech

Bindi Baji said:


> To be fair the entire legion are in denial,
> it's a well known fact that the main reason for their becoming "The Black Legion" was because they all shaved off their 'taches and pretended that Horus wasn't "Big Gay Al"


Some of them kept their black chaps, though, for those long campaigns when the warmaster grows lonely and there are no women in sight.

"YOU! NEW RECRUIT! You're Abaddon's cell bitch tonight. Put these on."


----------



## Justindkates

I really wish I had a Watcher in the dark model laying around I could convert to a Captain. 

Power Robe 6+ save, short counts as always being in cover 4++ 
Mistaken for Jawa's can use Mech troops.


----------



## Tawa

nevynxxx said:


> Not sure the legionaries would be happy with their Big Bad being "happy and Gay, like a clown."


Wait, he's happy _and_ happy.....? That's way too much happy for one guy.
Could be another reason for his rebellion I suppose..... 




Bindi Baji said:


> To be fair the entire legion are in denial,
> it's a well known fact that the main reason for their becoming "The Black Legion" was because they all shaved off their 'taches and pretended that Horus wasn't "Big Gay Al"


He's super. Thanks for asking!


----------



## nevynxxx

Tawa said:


> Wait, he's happy and happy.....? That's way too much happy for one guy.
> Could be another reason for his rebellion I suppose.....


I think it was the red nose, and white face paint.


----------



## Tawa

nevynxxx said:


> I think it was the red nose, and white face paint.


Lorgar....?


----------



## Gret79

Fulgrim.


----------



## Tawa

Gret79 said:


> Fulgrim.


I'd have thought that was more like a purple velvet leotard, lined and edged with gold thread and trimmed with white fur.....?


----------



## Justindkates

Fulgrim?


----------



## Tawa

Give him long white/blonde hair and you've nailed it :laugh:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Konrad Curze/Vicky was the schizosexual one


----------



## venomlust

So, here's hoping that there's more to this than fixing a subpar unit:

DATASLATE: HELBRUTES



> There are leaks of floating around showing off what is going to be released on pre-orders this weekend in the usual places. The one release we have not talked about is the upcoming release of Dataslate Helbrutes. While we already have rules for this model, I think this will end up being a formation or additional rules that the Helbrute may be getting.
> 
> Regardless of what it is, it goes up for pre-order March 15th, with a release date of March 22nd.
> 
> As this comes from leaks on 4chan, please take them as a rumor until we get something official.


Except it isn't a rumor:


----------



## scscofield

unless they give them a droppod i dont see a dataslate being that amazing


----------



## venomlust

Lawlz, yeah. I'm not complaining, though. It can't make them any worse (or so I think).


----------



## UndeadKing

Itll be can be taken as 1 to 3 in a single elite choice


----------



## revilo44

i hope they make them better i got one in my army now. 



> via BadTucker in the Faeit 212 Comment section
> yeah i read the WD today - its true - it gives further rules for hellbrutes, specifically a formation for them.





> via an anonymous reader from the Faeit 212 inbox
> Here is Dataslate Helbrutes-
> Delves into the history of the Chaos Space Marine Helbrutes
> Includes fameous examples
> Additional rules for fielding multiple Helbrutes as a formation


----------



## venomlust

I wouldn't mind that, but I usually don't run out of elites due to double force org. I hope there's more to it than that... that would be a monumental waste of money.


----------



## LukeValantine

Could care less about the history of hellbrutes as we pretty much know all about them at this point, unless the do a complete rework of what the are. Formations would be nice for those idiots that want to take more then 6 of them at a time, but for me 3 is enough at 2000pts. Although, out of all the units in the book with a armor value I got to admit that only the hellbrute makes sense for a formation due to its low points cost when kited for CC.


----------



## bitsandkits

that page from white dwarf also mean no Plastic havocs or chosen next week either, though i suppose they could be in for pre order 22nd of march for release 29th, but thats getting very close to when the new IG stuff is rumoured to start, plus we have pictures of IG stuff and none of the rumoured chaos units at this point.....


----------



## Zion

venomlust said:


> I wouldn't mind that, but I usually don't run out of elites due to double force org. I hope there's more to it than that... that would be a monumental waste of money.


Considering that dataslates have been in the range of $3.99-$14.99, "monumental" is overstating it a bit. This is probably going to be in the <$10 range (most likely in the $3.99-$6.99 range specifically) honestly if it only contains the rules for one unit (as rumored) which isn't that bad comparatively.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Considering that dataslates have been in the range of $3.99-$14.99, "monumental" is overstating it a bit. This is probably going to be in the <$10 range (most likely in the $3.99-$6.99 range specifically) honestly if it only contains the rules for one unit (as rumored) which isn't that bad comparatively.


If 4-7 bucks to have rules for a single unit isn't "that bad" I'm afraid the pricing standards have hit rock bottom.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> If 4-7 bucks to have rules for a single unit isn't "that bad" I'm afraid the pricing standards have hit rock bottom.


It's for rules and fluff actually.

And considering the price we pay for some things, and how long these rules will be good for (minimum of 5 years typically, if not longer if the rumors of GW trying to make these codex add-ons valid for longer than just this codex, but for future codexes is true) you're looking at a dollar or less a year of use. That ain't bad all things considered. 

But that's likely accounting and economics classes speaking when looking at what it costs, how long I expect to use something like that and how much use it could have.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> It's for rules and fluff actually.
> 
> And considering the price we pay for some things, and how long these rules will be good for (minimum of 5 years typically, if not longer if the rumors of GW trying to make these codex add-ons valid for longer than just this codex, but for future codexes is true) you're looking at a dollar or less a year of use. That ain't bad all things considered.
> 
> But that's likely accounting and economics classes speaking when looking at what it costs, how long I expect to use something like that and how much use it could have.


Yeah, it ain't bad. It's terrible.

I'm sorry, this is just Stockholm syndrome, no amount of accounting and economics is going to convince me that paying 4-7 bucks to have the rules for _one. single. model_. in a game that uses several per side per army is a good deal. Hell, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: the idea of having to pay up to 100€ for a rulebook and _one_ codex just to have the privilege of being included in the club is ridiculous.

But keep saying that economics prove this policy right and that market shares are on the rise and therefore it's the best thing ever. I have been alienated out of the game so hard I'm practically just following the rumour scene to have a laugh and sometimes playing with my buddies. If they can keep their routine on cashing in and sucking new customers' wallets dry and not give a flying fuck whether they stay or not afterwards, more power to them, but I still think it's ridiculous and people who spend this much money to get this little should know better.

Dataslates could have been a fun thing for living updates and some such, same goes for digital editions and weekly WD, but the quality has been so low it went beyond joke material. Maybe the old farts in suits that sit in their Nottingham HQ will one day wake up and realize it's not the 90s any more and quit blaming everyone but themselves, especially veteran players, if they keep losing ground or "the internet complains".

Yes, point at me and laugh, then come and tell me GW is still going strong and will be around forever and outlive every other miniature manufacturer around because they're the best ever. Sure, "the internet" spelt doom ten years ago too and GW is still going so this means every complaint is objectively wrong! Except the miniature wargaming scene was nothing like ten years ago, there's sculptors _already_ making a living with 3D printers and it's all going to get more affordable by the day.

Guess who'll be the #1 miniature company in 2020? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it won't be anyone charging dozens upon dozens of dollars for the base rules, without counting day 0 DLCs and paying for content patching. Feel free to save this rant of mine so you can quote it in 2020 and point and laugh at how stupid "the internet" and its naysaying is.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> Yeah, it ain't bad. It's terrible.


Which is your opinion. Mine disagrees.

As for the rest of your post I'm going to touch on a couple things to keep from turning this into some massive wall of text.



Mokuren said:


> I'm sorry, this is just Stockholm syndrome, no amount of accounting and economics is going to convince me that paying 4-7 bucks to have the rules for _one. single. model_. in a game that uses several per side per army is a good deal. Hell, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: the idea of having to pay up to 100€ for a rulebook and _one_ codex just to have the privilege of being included in the club is ridiculous.


Easy there. If you don't want to buy it, don't. You're not being forced to pay for an FAQ here, but rather an optional set of alternate rules that they came up with. You need a codex to play a specific army, yes, but you don't _need_ this if you don't _want_ it. 



Mokuren said:


> But keep saying that economics prove this policy right and that market shares are on the rise and therefore it's the best thing ever. I have been alienated out of the game so hard I'm practically just following the rumour scene to have a laugh and sometimes playing with my buddies. If they can keep their routine on cashing in and sucking new customers' wallets dry and not give a flying fuck whether they stay or not afterwards, more power to them, but I still think it's ridiculous and people who spend this much money to get this little should know better.


I was speaking more of the economic worth than market share. To some people out there the idea of Helbrute formations are worth that few bucks. To others it doesn't apply to them, or it's a disagreeable and it'll have a negative value to what they want to do.

Honestly with you feeling alienated I don't see anything GW does as something you'd approve of at this point (save for maybe Sisters in plastic) so you have a strong negative value against anything they put out. That's fine . You don't have to like their stuff, but to claim "Stockholm Syndrome" against anyone who doesn't see things the same way is a bit much.


----------



## venomlust

@Mokuren:

Damn, man. I agree with you in a lot of ways, but it's sad to see you so embittered by GW's decisions. Personally, other than very rare exceptions, I don't buy any products from GW directly. But as you say, the game can still be fun when you just treat it as a game to pass the time with your friends. All the anger and frustration just doesn't seem like it's worth the energy. I'm not laughing at you or criticizing you, just commiserating, I suppose.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Honestly with you feeling alienated I don't see anything GW does as something you'd approve of at this point (save for maybe Sisters in plastic) so you have a strong negative value against anything they put out. That's fine . You don't have to like their stuff, but to claim "Stockholm Syndrome" against anyone who doesn't see things the same way is a bit much.


Just to be perfectly clear: I'm not feeling forced to buy anything. Quite the contrary.

Remember when, back in the day, GW didn't even know you could have digital products? That was a couple years ago I think, not completely sure, and I was calling them dinosaurs for not having realized the potential in that market.

Then they get that market, but only with apple products, and at prices that make it a complete waste of time: for what you save, might as well get a hardback, at least it's pretty. The problem is, and this is the issue that drives me crazy, since selling digital rules for wargames is (to my knowledge) unique to Warhammer 40K I get the feeling that there's people left without a comparison to draw to and think their digital policy and prices are "okay".

They're not. Go check out Paizo's website. PDF only downloads are usually about half the price of the print release, and printed books come with their PDF version for free. They also sell the equivalent of 40K's dataslates... For prices as low as one single dollar. The best part? All the rules you need are actually available for free without needing to involve piracy.

GW not only took several months to make their digital contents actually available, instead of limited to Apple users, but the price tags are unbelievable. Seriously, there's practically no advantage in buying digital, especially considering you're getting a worse service.

Oh, sure, "but it's optimized .mobi or .epub", you'll say. And while that _still_ doesn't make the price tag reasonable in the slightest, it has another problem: it doesn't _do_ what it's meant to do.

I can tell from personal experience: flipping through a digidex from my tablet is a harrowing experience, I did that at a tournament and boy was I glad I actually printed a handmade resume of all the rules I needed on paper instead. Because yes, flipping pages is actually _faster_ than navigating on a digital device, especially if you take into account that the typical codex's layout isn't exactly stellar when you have to reference rules and all that.

So, what's the advantage of going digital? Having a slow, hard to navigate equivalent to a printed copy that costs marginally less? I'd rather being bulked with hardbacks, really.

And really, "It's rules and fluff" still doesn't excuse the fact that it's extremely little (digital) content for its price tag. Really, check out other shops in the net, like drivethruRPG or, hell, even lulu.com, GW's pricing for their digital content is outrageous and I can't for the love of me understand how anyone could think this can possibly make selling models easier.



venomlust said:


> @Mokuren:
> 
> Damn, man. I agree with you in a lot of ways, but it's sad to see you so embittered by GW's decisions. Personally, other than very rare exceptions, I don't buy any products from GW directly. But as you say, the game can still be fun when you just treat it as a game to pass the time with your friends. All the anger and frustration just doesn't seem like it's worth the energy. I'm not laughing at you or criticizing you, just commiserating, I suppose.


I don't care about GW, I can play games fine with my buddies even if it burns to cinder right in this moment.

I'm just in complete disbelief at how anyone can see their digital policies and prices and think "Eh, looks fair".


----------



## Einherjar667

The rampant bitching and negativity that most of these threads descend into is enough to make me leave the forum for good. GW's policy seems to come up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Maybe I am naive, but legal capitalism allows them to set their prices at what ever they please, and government regulation of war game product pricing isn't going to happen any time.


----------



## revilo44

Einherjar667 said:


> The rampant bitching and negativity that most of these threads descend into is enough to make me leave the forum for good. GW's policy seems to come up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Maybe I am naive, but legal capitalism allows them to set their prices at what ever they please, and government regulation of war game product pricing isn't going to happen any time.


i thought this thread was about the new hellbrute and its data slate which i hope will make them awesome.


----------



## Bindi Baji

On the one hand GW did a bad thing, when they try to alleviate that, it's a bad thing, when they did something different, it's a bad thing. 

Does that sum it up?,
basically what it sounds like GW should do is.....
make everything free then go bankrupt,
but that's bad, hmm. :headbutt:


----------



## Einherjar667

The eHelbrute looks liek an awesome model!

I want ine


----------



## venomlust

Einherjar667 said:


> The rampant bitching and negativity that most of these threads descend into is enough to make me leave the forum for good. GW's policy seems to come up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Maybe I am naive, but capitalism allows them to set their prices at what ever they please, and government regulation of war game product pricing isn't going to happen any time.


I dunno, I enjoy having discussions with people who have multiple points of view. I can understand why negativity is frustrating to you, but even in the worst situations I can also understand where people are coming from. I guess, unless they're being directly disrespectful to someone else, I see value in everyone's opinion. We can always return to a thread and get it back on topic after tempers have cooled a bit.


No matter how crappy they are, I'm picking up 2 brutes. They are just way too cool not to build.


----------



## Einherjar667

venomlust said:


> I dunno, I enjoy having discussions with people who have multiple points of view. I can understand why negativity is frustrating to you, but even in the worst situations I can also understand where people are coming from. I guess, unless they're being directly disrespectful to someone else, I see value in everyone's opinion. We can always return to a thread and get it back on topic after tempers have cooled a bit.
> 
> 
> No matter how crappy they are, I'm picking up 2 brutes. They are just way too cool not to build.



Don't get me wrong, complaining is fine, it's how we measure the ened for improvement. However this thread is about the new Helbrute model, not GW's policy. At most places, derailing a thread to complain and kick and scream about policy and such in a thread only remotely related to it, would be bad form. Especially when it seems to be the same people doing it in every thread. 

I get it, theres a sense of betrayed between the customer and GW, but the time, nor the place, to voice that betrayel, is in every thread at every time. I enter a thread to catch up on news or rumors, and inevitably end up reading a bunch of negative venom that sours the conversation, and leaves me with ill feelings and CERTAINLY does not make me want to return here.

I wont take this any further, as its hypocritical to do so.


----------



## Tawa

UndeadKing said:


> Itll be can be taken as 1 to 3 in a single elite choice


I'd not argue about that :good:


----------



## Zion

Einherjar667 said:


> The rampant bitching and negativity that most of these threads descend into is enough to make me leave the forum for good. GW's policy seems to come up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Maybe I am naive, but capitalism allows them to set their prices at what ever they please, and government regulation of war game product pricing isn't going to happen any time.


Exactly. Prices are set by what GW can supply (which is largly inflexible for the physical goods) and what we're willing/able to pay. And honestly my willingness/ability to pay isn't put off by their prices most of the time. When it does I don't buy.

Basically their prices are simple supply and demand. Complaining about them won't change that.

Also I recall doing some math to show that they didn't make *that* much net profit on each sale of their stuff. Something like 15% the listed price was profit IIRC. Less than that when it's sold through a brick and mortar too.

I think I might sit down and do that again in the future because I thought it was interesting info.


----------



## Ravion

Just got myself a Hellbrute and I'm assembling it right now. All the bits in the package are awesome. Pics will be uploaded on my project log soon.


----------



## Einherjar667

Zion said:


> Exactly. Prices are set by what GW can supply (which is largly inflexible for the physical goods) and what we're willing/able to pay. And honestly my willingness/ability to pay isn't put off by their prices most of the time. When it does I don't buy.
> 
> Basically their prices are simple supply and demand. Complaining about them won't change that.
> 
> Also I recall doing some math to show that they didn't make *that* much net profit on each sale of their stuff. Something like 15% the listed price was profit IIRC. Less than that when it's sold through a brick and mortar too.
> 
> I think I might sit down and do that again in the future because I thought it was interesting info.


Plus, the models are made in England. Something not made in China is worth the extra money.


----------



## Zion

So it looks like there may be a couple of different things coming out of the Helbrute Dataslate.

Picked up from the BoLS board:


daboarder said:


> Hellbrute Dataslate up for pre-order. *$4.99*
> 
> 3 dataslates
> 
> one formation: Helcult (Cultists and Brute)
> 
> one formation: Mayhem Pack (Teleporting brutes)
> 
> One unknown


I like that Helbrute Cult idea. That sounds awesome.


----------



## venomlust

Very exciting! And still a 3rd formation yet to be revealed. I pre-ordered this to go along with my inbound brutes.

3 Brutes with melta/power fist with a heavy flamer sounds pretty sweet for Deep Striking.


----------



## Kreuger

Huh, the bubble-wrap formation is now official.


----------



## venomlust

Oh snap! Formation 3. Check it:











Venerable Helbrute? Perfect chance to use my Contemptor.


----------



## revilo44

venomlust said:


> Oh snap! Formation 3. Check it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Venerable Helbrute? Perfect chance to use my Contemptor.


I think This formation interests me the most as I think it will change the way hellbrute work 
Plus should I buy the ebook or apple version of dataslate (I have an ipad)

Finally I posted the transfer sheet on the other thread but case you missed it here it is


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## venomlust

revilo44 said:


> I think This formation interests me the most as I think it will change the way hellbrute work
> Plus should I buy the ebook or apple version of dataslate (I have an ipad)
> 
> Finally I posted the transfer sheet on the other thread but case you missed it here it is


If you've got the iPad I figure you might as well get the fancy one.

The transfer sheet is cool, but I'm not sure which ones to use!


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## Kreuger

I would always go the epub or pdf version, because its much more widely useable. Unless you have a Mac you can't really read the ibooks version on a desktop or laptop.


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## DaisyDuke

Man, I can't wait to deep strike 3 brutes and a decimator with terms in to my opponents back field☺


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## venomlust

Only 5 days until the dataslate is released, I think. Can't wait that long! Must know rules nowwww!


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## Gret79

A friend reckons that the helcult formation should mean the helbrute can wing cultists at things as a shooting weapon. And be able to throw D6 of 'em on overwatch :laugh:


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## venomlust

Gret79 said:


> A friend reckons that the helcult formation should mean the helbrute can wing cultists at things as a shooting weapon. And be able to throw D6 of 'em on overwatch :laugh:


Hahaha! If you roll a 6 and then a 6 against a Leman Russ he manages to chuck a Cultist right down the barrel of the battle cannon, causing Weapon Destroyed, at the very least :laugh:.


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## Ravion

venomlust said:


> Hahaha! If you roll a 6 and then a 6 against a Leman Russ he manages to chuck a Cultist right down the barrel of the battle cannon, causing Weapon Destroyed, at the very least :laugh:.


 Why do I feel kinda orcish after reading that?:wink:


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## venomlust

Ravion said:


> Why do I feel kinda orcish after reading that?:wink:


Cuz dem boyz know how ta fight!


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## Ravion

venomlust said:


> Cuz dem boyz know how ta fight!


Datz right! :smoke:


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## dragonkingofthestars

Gret79 said:


> A friend reckons that the helcult formation should mean the helbrute can wing cultists at things as a shooting weapon. And be able to throw D6 of 'em on overwatch :laugh:


Doubt it's anything that fun, house rule it and tell us how it goes.


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## LukeValantine

Fun fact about supply and demand is how the release of a proper hellbrute kit will further drive down the cost of the DV mono build hellbrute. I am personally looking forward to getting 6 hellbrutes for $75.


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## venomlust

I wonder what the max unit sizes will be. Just imagining a sea of Helbrutes.


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## Ravion

A sea of helbrutes........... all the fun possibilities running through my head! :yahoo:


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## Zion

*Ahem* Some new information seems to have been revealed. It's not much, but I'll take what I can get.


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## venomlust

Woot! 20+ Cultists and a Helbrute! Helbrute character with Thunder Hammer/Scourge = HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGH!


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## Zion

Yeah, my next purchase for my Crimson Slaughter (when I finish working on what I've got right now that is. I've got 5 Raptors, a Daemon Prince, two Spawn, a Cuttledrake, a Forgefiend and 5 Terminators to prime/paint/base as is, and I plan on building 10 CSM and a Rhino here in the next week or so too) is either Dark Vengeance, or a whole bunch of Cultists and a Helbrute. I'll end up getting both eventually I'm sure, mostly so I can have a pile of Cultists and Kranon.

And a pile of Cultists with Kranon standing on top....


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## venomlust

Those cultists are gonna die, one way or the other. That's what they're for!


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## Zion

So who wants to know about the new Helbrute formations?


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## Ravion

I think I fell in love with the murder pack.:goodpost:


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## Zion

The Murderpack is a bit ridiculious in points and model count (and thus model cost), but I'm sure at 1.5k or less you could really screw with your opponent by dropping that blob into your Deployment Zone.


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## venomlust

Wow, thanks Zion! Those all sound really good, and I have the minis to pull them all off.

5 of any brute loadout sounds mighty destructive. 5 twin linked lascannons and missile launchers on top of Forgefiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Predators, whatever! Muahahaha!


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## Kreuger

So . . . if one were to cast prescience . . . Could you cast it on an entire formation?


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## Zion

venomlust said:


> Wow, thanks Zion! Those all sound really good, and I have the minis to pull them all off.


No problem. I actually keep doing these reviews because people like them so thank you.



venomlust said:


> 5 of any brute loadout sounds mighty destructive. 5 twin linked lascannons and missile launchers on top of Forgefiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Predators, whatever! Muahahaha!


You just start off at 500 points and then pile more points on to do it.

Also, while you can pick the Crazed result, it'll only benefit the models that have a Crazed marker on them so unless you want to juggle them around you're not too likely to have 5 models with Crazed Markers to, say, shoot twice with. 



Kreuger said:


> So . . . if one were to cast prescience . . . Could you cast it on an entire formation?


If the formation is a single unit, yes, otherwise no.


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## Kreuger

Zion said:


> If the formation is a single unit, yes, otherwise no.


Hmm, so reading the helbrute rules it looks like the murderpack is the only one that counts as a single squadron.

It would be impressive to see a squadron of helbrutes all with lascannons and missile launchers firing with prescience. What I don't recall, and would need to check, is if vehicle squadrons can split fire. If they can't then it would likely be a waste, but those 675 points of helbrutes would basically evaporate any other unit in the game. 

If they can split fire, then those 'Brutes would wreak some major havoc, as they insanely (but accurately!) fire away. It would be an amazing amount of psyker points efficiency.

Strangley . . . I think I have enough chaos dreadnoughts and helbrutes to field 2 of those formations. The by product of several editions where dreads were not so underwhelming.

[edit] Sadly, squadrons do have to all target the same enemy unit. So is that worth it? Would assault focused units be more useful?

Hmmm.


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## Zion

As far as I remember squadrons can't split fire, but I'm always willing to be wrong.


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## Kreuger

Nope, I checked. They can't. Unless its a huge game I can't see 5 'brutes firing in unison as that useful. It seems like overkill, or wasted points.


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## Zion

Kreuger said:


> Nope, I checked. They can't. Unless its a huge game I can't see 5 'brutes firing in unison as that useful. It seems like overkill, or wasted points.


Well then loading them to be a 5 models shooting platform is probably unneeded unless you play against a lot of large unit armies (Orks, Blob Guard, or Nids).


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## venomlust

I still see Lascannons/Missiles as being a pretty good option at erasing enemy armor. Given the amount of cover saves on tanks and invulnerable saves on units like Riptides, I think the volume of firepower is necessary to hopefully ensure you take the thing out in 1 round of shooting. Unlikely, with the 5 fucking wound Riptide, but you never know. Monstrous Creatures, too.

Prescience would be decent, but the Lascannons (and half the other shooty weapons) are already twin-linked. Could still be worth it for the missiles, though. 5 Krak missiles are capable of doing some damage.

Anti armor, anti horde... there are a lot of things we can do with Helbrutes now.

I wish I had enough brutes to run one of every detachment type :grin:.


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## Zion

That would require 9 'Brutes and/or Chaos Dreads.

That's a lot of armor.


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## venomlust

If I use my converted Contemptor and AoBR loyalist dread, I could have 6. 3 to go! Maybe I'll pick up some old school or FW dreads for cheap some day. They don't look quite as cool but the variety and savings would be great.


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## Uveron

Kreuger said:


> Nope, I checked. They can't. Unless its a huge game I can't see 5 'brutes firing in unison as that useful. It seems like overkill, or wasted points.


5 Lascannon shots are about what you need to take out a AV 14 tank. But the point cost is a lot to sink into that 'death-star'


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## Kreuger

I haven't thought the whole thing through. A walker vehicle squadron Deathstar . . . It seems insane (pun intended).

But it might just work in a larger game PROVIDED the unit has targets. If they end up marooned in a corner they still have range, but probably not LOS. 

Hmmm. With Las/missiles statistically they may kill about 90 points of marines or regular terminators a shooting phase. Which doesn't quite pay for them in a 4 or 5 turn game.

Or as you say, it could be a land raider for 250 points.


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## Gret79

Zion said:


> So who wants to know about the new Helbrute formations?


 
Is there any chance of a copy/paste or a brief description for the workblocked?


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## Zion

Gret79 said:


> Is there any chance of a copy/paste or a brief description for the workblocked?


Here's the Meat and Potatoes of the article:


> * Formation Rules*
> 
> As mentioned before, there are 3 Formations in this book. We'll look at each of them and I'll share my initial impressions of them in turn.
> 
> * Mayhem Pack*
> 
> Do you want to Deep Strike Helbrutes into your enemy's lines and watch the chaos unfurl? Well then this is the Formation for you. Consisting of 3 Helbrutes this formation has the 3 following Special Rules:
> 
> 
> *It Will Not Die*
> *Mayhem from the Maelstrom: *All of the units in this Formation must begin the game in Reserve. When making Reserve Rolls, make a single roll for the entire Formation. On a successful Reserve Roll, all of the units in this Formation arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike.
> *Tormented Terrors:* At the start of each of your Movement phases, make a single roll on the Crazed Table. All of the Helbrutes in this formation are affected by the result, even if they have not suffered a glancing or penetrating hit.
> While more dangerous than the loyalist method of throwing Dreadnoughts near enemy lines this method is cheaper, doesn't use a Force Organizational Slot and gives It Will Not Die to the Helbrutes. All in all not a bad option for throwing them deep in the enemy lines. I'd likely load a formation like this with Multi-Meltas and Powerfists with Flamers just to ensure as much carnage as quickly as possible, but everyone has their own idea how to best sow terror with these guys I bet. Regardless they look like they could be a lot of fun to throw into the enemy lines and watch the mayhem unfurl.
> *
> Helcult *
> 
> Do you like Cultists? Do you ever feel that those same Cultists could do more to protect other models in your army? Have you ever wanted to see them fling themselves in harm's way to protect other models? Then the Helcult has just the answer (and potential amusement) just for you! Consisting of a single Helbrute and 2 units of Cultist (of any size, but you may want to take large units for this one, you'll need the bodies) it comes with the following rules:
> 
> 
> *Apocalyptic Fury:* This Formation's Helbrute has the Rage special rule. Futhermore, when rolling To Hit with the Helbrute's Melee attacks, any unmodified rolls of 1 are not discard. Instead, they automatically hit a friendly model (but not the Helbrute) nearby. Randomly determine (for each roll of a 1) which model is hit, from those in 6" of the Helbrute, even if they are not involved in the same combat. If there are no viable targets in range, these Attacks are discarded.
> *Living Idol of Chaos: *As long as the Helbrute is alive, both of the Formation's units of Chaos Cultists have the fearless special rule. If the Helbrute is completely destroyed, the Formation's units of Chaos Cultists lose the Fearless special rule, but gain the Zealot special rule.
> *Human Shields: *If the Helbrute is partially obscured from the firer's line of sight by models from one, or more of the Formation's units of Chaos Cultists, it receives a 3+ cover save. However, for each successful cover save the controlling player makes as a result of this special rule the nearest intervening Cultist model is removed as a casualty with no saves allowed.
> When news of the formations first broke this was the formation that interested me the most, and I'm glad it to find out it's even more entertaining that I expected. With a Helbrute who acts like Kharn in close combat (with a bigger aura of killing!), Fearless Cultists who become Zealots if the Helbrute is killed (giving them Fearless and Hatred) and the Human Shields rule making it possible to bubble wrap the Helbrute and march him across the table this might be the most interesting (and possibly distracting) formation, especially if you take the maximum formation size with 70 Cultists running across the board!
> *
> Helfist Murderpack*
> 
> Do you like large vehicle squadrons? Or do you wish that Helbrutes could be a little more predictable and controllable? Perhaps you have a lot of extra Helbrute models floating around because you bought a lot of Dark Vengeance sets. Well if any of this applies to you, this might be right up your alley! A formation consisting of *five* Helbrutes (yes, *FIVE*) the Helbrutes in this formation has a special restriction: one Helbrute must be nominated as the *Helbrute Champion*. In exchange the formation has the following special rules:
> 
> 
> *Murder Pack:* All Helbrutes in this formation count as a single vehicle squadron.
> *Pack Leader:* The Helbrute Champion has the Vehicle (character) unit type, and the Aura of Dark Glory Chaos reward. Other Helbrutes in the same vehicle unit can make Look Out, Sir attempts to protect the Helbrute Champion as long as they are within 6". Furthermore, if any of the Formation's Helbrutes have crazed markers, do not roll on the Crazed Table if the Helbrute Champion is still alive; instead the controlling player can choose which result affects them each turn, though the nominated result applies to all the Helbrutes in the formation with crazed markers.
> *Death of a Leader:* If the Helbrute Champion is completely destroyed, all other Helbrutes in the Formation gain the Rage special rule.
> This on strikes me as possibly the biggest surprise. Running at least 500 points this is a unit with a massive footprint, but an interesting set of rules as well. The Helbrute Champion was an interesting addition with both the Character rule as well as the 5++ invulnerable save and the ability to pick which Crazed Result the unit will use every turn. Regardless of how you build the unit it won't be cheap but it will be possibly the most distracting vehicle squadron you could field outside of Apocalypse or the Guard codex. I don't see a lot of people running this one, mostly because of the model count requirement, but I do see it being potentially entertaining as you throw 5 large based models on the table and challenge your opponent to try and kill them quickly.


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## the_barwn

Hmmm.... the last formation does sound nasty but overall it looks pretty fun with the formations on offer


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## Badknox

Maybe I'm missing it, but I couldn't find it very clear which of the 3 formations take up a slot in the force org. Are they all external to the default setup?


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## nevynxxx

Badknox said:


> Maybe I'm missing it, but I couldn't find it very clear which of the 3 formations take up a slot in the force org. Are they all external to the default setup?


This may help


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## Zion

Badknox said:


> Maybe I'm missing it, but I couldn't find it very clear which of the 3 formations take up a slot in the force org. Are they all external to the default setup?


Each formation counts as a detachment that comes from the C:CSM codex but does not use a FOC slot for the primary detachment, or allies, even if allied to another army.



nevynxxx said:


> This may help


It doesn't cover the potentially infinite formation detachments you can have though.


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## nevynxxx

Zion said:


> Each formation counts as a detachment that comes from the C:CSM codex but does not use a FOC slot for the primary detachment, or allies, even if allied to another army.
> 
> 
> It doesn't cover the potentially infinite formation detachments you can have though.


Yes it does, at the very bottom......


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## Gret79

Just a couple of quick questions from someone who is now trying to figure out how the hell to get an e-book reader...on a windows phone, with awful signal and no internet for the next 15 days and who has not previously bought a dataslate...

Do the detachments have points values like in apoc of is it just the cost of the models?
Do troops bought as part of a detachment count as scoring?

I'm also hideously workblocked from most of the internet, so if anyone could answer a plain yes/no I'd really appreciate it


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## Zion

Gret79 said:


> Just a couple of quick questions from someone who is now trying to figure out how the hell to get an e-book reader...on a windows phone, with awful signal and no internet for the next 15 days and who has not previously bought a dataslate...
> 
> Do the detachments have points values like in apoc of is it just the cost of the models?
> Do troops bought as part of a detachment count as scoring?


Apoc formations don't have an additional cost since the new book dropped. GW moved to rewarding the player for having collections of models instead of charging them further for them so the Apoc formations no longer have added costs. Likewise neither do these formations.


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## Gret79

Zion said:


> Apoc formations don't have an additional cost since the new book dropped. GW moved to rewarding the player for having collections of models instead of charging them further for them so the Apoc formations no longer have added costs. Likewise neither do these formations.


 
Damn, I'm really behind :shok:

Thank you


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## mayegelt

Yeah the only cost is the "pay to win" formula GW are doing where buying dataslates at £3 each to get more powerful versions of the things you already have for no in game penalty  Much like some of the new supplement books 

I know that type of quote isn't completely fair as some of the slates and supplements have bonus and penalty for using them. But it seems like the majority seem to be done on the "How can we charge someone £3 - 30 for 1-2 pages of extra rules & a few new items?" with the reply being "We make the normal version ok, and in 6 months charge them £££ for the more powerful one to add to their book."
Some of this leads to 'Timmy Powergamer' Having to buy all the books and slates related to his army and allying Crimson Slaughter with Black Legion with CSM so they can have 5 heldrakes per FOC or whatever.


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## Zion

Dataslates are no different than the old WD Chapter Approved stuff that we used to get, only they can't run out of copies of the rules and then charge you a second time for the compilation book. This isn't new, this is just a better way to do it than they used too.


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## neferhet

Well, good news and bad news.
The trend of Pay for Win is going stronger but those rules are damn good and fun. 
I'm just not too happy to buy a codex that is impaired only to pay some 20 € more for 3-4 dataslates to field a proper army...


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## Zion

neferhet said:


> Well, good news and bad news.
> The trend of Pay for Win is going stronger but those rules are damn good and fun.
> I'm just not too happy to buy a codex that is impaired only to pay some 20 € more for 3-4 dataslates to field a proper army...


Even "good" codexes are getting Dataslates, so it's not just a way to buff "bad" armies. It just a couple of guys who work in the GW Digital Editions department who look at a bunch of models and the fluff and create some nice bonuses to people who have those in their collection.


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## neferhet

Zion said:


> Even "good" codexes are getting Dataslates, so it's not just a way to buff "bad" armies. It just a couple of guys who work in the GW Digital Editions department who look at a bunch of models and the fluff and create some nice bonuses to people who have those in their collection.


Of course, it's not only a way to make un-selling models more viable, it's a good way to expand the game too. I'm just a little bit pissed that if i am a uninterested player and just buy the codex i will not be able to fully use all the rules written for an army. I'm not complaining, i'm just not so happy about the effect it will have on the game in the long term. Just right now, i couldn't/wouldn't afford the extra 30 € for the Crimson Salughter supplement (enphasis on "Supplement") so no possessed as troops, no shinies etc. It's 30 € for 4 items and 3 extra rules. The same goes for the helbrute. A pdf with 3 extra rules for a model in your army, 3 €. It's pay for win  If i can afford that, i'm happy. If not, i'm unhappy.


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## Zion

neferhet said:


> Of course, it's not only a way to make un-selling models more viable, it's a good way to expand the game too. I'm just a little bit pissed that if i am a uninterested player and just buy the codex i will not be able to fully use all the rules written for an army. I'm not complaining, i'm just not so happy about the effect it will have on the game in the long term. Just right now, i couldn't/wouldn't afford the extra 30 € for the Crimson Salughter supplement (enphasis on "Supplement") so no possessed as troops, no shinies etc. It's 30 € for 4 items and 3 extra rules. The same goes for the helbrute. A pdf with 3 extra rules for a model in your army, 3 €. It's pay for win  If i can afford that, i'm happy. If not, i'm unhappy.


See, I think you're downplaying the supplements there. They aren't just "two pages of rules" (even then it's more like 3-4), but a lot of lore, art (some of it new!), models painted for that specific force (which for a lot of armies outside of the Marine Chapters who have their own books is a godsend to see how that force looks across the whole thing not just one or two models). They also include missions specific to the army's history (Eternal War) and how they fight (Altar of War). Crimson Slaughter added to that Cities of Death and Planetstrike supplements.

When you take _all_ the rules into account, not just the core ones for the army, they exceed those couple pages people credit them with.


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## mayegelt

Zion said:


> Even "good" codexes are getting Dataslates, so it's not just a way to buff "bad" armies. It just a couple of guys who work in the GW Digital Editions department who look at a bunch of models and the fluff and create some nice bonuses to people who have those in their collection.


I like the idea of Dataslates and Supplements in theory. Adding additional rules and stuff or new units is kinda cool. But £30 for the original codex + £30 per supplement is just nuts. Go back even just 10years or so and the codex were about £20-25 each (kinda not the point as of course prices go up) and often included chapter rules or craftworlds or whatever. But when they didn't you could get a book that was all the additional rules (normally about 6-10 pages min) + a load of fluff for about £10-12 (this is kinda the point that the supplements were half the price of the codex and contained more rules than the new supplements what cost the same as the army books).
I know that books like Imperial Armour and stuff like that also cost the same as the codex and generally were a compilation of a load of rules printed out in White Dwarf and stuff + a load of additional ones.
Also look back at thing like the skavan / beastmen army books. 50+ magic items for each book. New WFB armys have about 10, no doubt a load will be added in supplements as it seems to have worked in 40k.

Then again I'm a bitter old person


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## mayegelt

Zion said:


> See, I think you're downplaying the supplements there. They aren't just "two pages of rules" (even then it's more like 3-4), but a lot of lore, art (some of it new!), models painted for that specific force (which for a lot of armies outside of the Marine Chapters who have their own books is a godsend to see how that force looks across the whole thing not just one or two models). They also include missions specific to the army's history (Eternal War) and how they fight (Altar of War). Crimson Slaughter added to that Cities of Death and Planetstrike supplements.
> 
> When you take _all_ the rules into account, not just the core ones for the army, they exceed those couple pages people credit them with.


A lot of the Eternal War and Alter of War missions seem to be clones of the ones in the other supplements though. I was looking at the Black Legion one and when I went around to a friend who had the Imperial Fists one (cant remember the name) we checked the missions and I think 4 out of 6 were the same just with different armies involved. TBH it isn't hard to make up your own missions and agree to play them with people as well. However making up rules for models / armies are VERY rare to get peoples consent for using .
However when I went to Black Library day this year I asked the author of the Flesh Tearers books how does he use them in game or what rules would he give them if he was able to influence a supplement for them. His reply was along the lines of he just uses them as a whole army of death company and his friends accept that.


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## Zion

mayegelt said:


> Also look back at thing like the skavan / beastmen army books. 50+ magic items for each book. New WFB armys have about 10, no doubt a load will be added in supplements as it seems to have worked in 40k.
> 
> Then again I'm a bitter old person


Ones of the reason you have less Magic Items is the extensive list of common magic items (as almost every book had magic items that did a lot of the same stuff (ward saves, +X magic weapons, ect) so by shunting all of that into the core book that really shrunk the army's special magic items lists.


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## mayegelt

Zion said:


> Ones of the reason you have less Magic Items is the extensive list of common magic items (as almost every book had magic items that did a lot of the same stuff (ward saves, +X magic weapons, ect) so by shunting all of that into the core book that really shrunk the army's special magic items lists.


There were a lot more unique items though that didn't get qwoshed down in the common items lists. I think some of the prob may have also been that people were able to build better chars than the premade special chars what could cause problems. But also it did lead to a meta game in some cases of unless you buy X-Y-Z you suck. The trouble now seems to be that all you are left with is the X-Y and they removed the Z.
As said, bitter old man who was around for the WFB supplement Battle Magic that had something like 300 magical items what preaty much anyone could use, and the books had about 10 in themselves.
I do agree that there was a lot of redundancy in some of the items and who would take X when Y was only 5pts more type of things. Or an item just having no logical reason to use it.
BUT limiting all new armies (sorry gone back in to 40k now) to 5-7 items to make them stand out tends to make it that you have to play the way they want you to play the character, because you no longer have the option to change it (thinking something like the kai-gun from previous CSM book what turned you happly melee lord in to a ranged beast).


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## nevynxxx

mayegelt said:


> As said, bitter old man who was around for the WFB supplement Battle Magic that had something like 300 magical items what preaty much anyone could use, and the books had about 10 in themselves.


*cough* still have that. Love those cards. *cough*


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