# Deathmarks and Veil-teks



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Now the other day I was at the Middenlands massacre tournemant and took deathmarks with veil-tek, for the first time. I certainly felt thatthey proved their worth.

Against hoard armies they are ok, the hunters from hyperspace rules doesn't really have much effect because there are just that many units it can be hard to pick one they would be efficient against, however the big squads means that there are much more effected models even if they are weaker and would be wounded on 2+ anyway by anything which isn't Sx (In guard case anyway, maybe not orks or nids). In one nasty game with guard though the veil-tek helped a lot (not as much as another game I will talk about later but still), I was effectively corned in a building but I managed to pull them off the objective (they were the last of my army left), I veiled off to another objective and scared off the capturing unit with the staff mainly. Had the game gone on I could have amazingly drawn and veiled over to the only other held objective. Sadly not, but the veil-tek proved itself there

For standard sized armies, they are probably going to be the worst, but my opinion was probably down to me not thinking carefully about how I attacked my marked terminator lord. Against armies such as CSMs you probably want to be marking Deamon princes or the largest squad in terminator armour, or just a really big squad of something which could be a nusance. In my game against CSMs I marked the lord and was forced into combat otherwise the deamon weapon would have destroyed my lychguard, I know it was stupid now but the 2+ in combat aswell helped and I took off two of his wounds before they were killed... i no stupid and I don't know how my lychguard with sword did nothing, but hey they survived.

However they really come into their own against specialist armies such as Grey nights. They have normally very few but ridiculously tough squads. The list I was against was a 10 man squad of terminators with an inquisitor, another 5 man squad and 2 dreadnoughts. Now stupidly I brought my deathmarks in on the wrong side, I sacrificed my lychguard and scarabs (I know a waste but I needed to protect my lord and 7 warriors on th only held objective), and when they were finally killed in his assault phase, after about the 3rd round of it (thank god) I killed 7 of the 9 remaining terminators (got some terrible roles and only had 2 of the lych for most of it, thats why I only killed one) using the abyssal staff.

Now because it was the marked squad and a template weapon, so I wounded all of them on 2+ even though it should have been 5+ (because they had leadership 9) and the Ap1 made them fail all of their 5+ invulnerables (maybe one survived I was too excited to remember but it was still amazing) and then I got the rest of them in rapid fire with the deathmarks.

With that done I veiled across the field and pinned the other squad after killing 2 of them (Deathmarks would still wound on 4+ cus of Sx) 

Even without the cryptek in that situation I still would have taken out a fair few GN terminators with the general deathmark rolls especially if it rended, and this choice will be gladly taken in most of my army lists in future.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The Abyssal Staff is excellent in those situations. One of the reasons why GKTs suck, if anyone happens to read me say that, since I so frequently do...


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

So true, I was terrified about going up against him and everyone expected me to lose until they saw me do that


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

To be fair, he was the only Grey Knights player who had anything even faintly resembling a good list, so damn right we were scared of him.

This tactic is really mean, even though you say it's not ideal against horde armies - to be fair, even Orks or Tyranids usually have something that's markeable, whether it be Nobz, Meganobz, Tyranid Warriors, Fexstar (although if you see a Fextar at 1000pts you've probably won anyway), etc.

Midnight


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Why mark a high toughness MC though if you're going to wound it on a 4+ already? I personally would choose to mark a larger squad of terminators or marines over a Prince, to use the chaos example. That way you can get the most of your snipers.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Wounding on 2s on a big creature is still nice, if anti-MC is what your army's lacking. Bringing down Wraithlords, for example, since Gauss has no effect on living targets any more.

Midnight


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree, but still would hate taking down a creature and then feeling like my Deathmarks had no further purpose beyond becoming a rending Immortal. Everyone else is hurting the same creature on 6's if at all, so I'd rather dish out death to more models with them.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

To be fair, Wraithlords aren't living targets...


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Deathmarks are pretty useful, provided they don't scatter when deep striking. They usually earn their points back with their first shooting in my experience. After that, they are a tar-pit unit. Of course, mine destroy themselves on scatter about 20% of the time.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

'Making your points back' is a silly concept. Do you take Rhinos expecting the Storm Bolter to kill 35pts worth of troops? No. There's a good article about it on 3++; if you type 'Fallacy 40k: Making your points back' into your chosen search engine you'll find it.

Deathmarks can be awesome, but can fail. If you DS near a target, then they take an assault or something and die. No, their ideal use is to DS them into a good vantage point, not even necessarily near to your opponent - say, for example, there's a nice big hill with a cliff edge on the board edge, about halfway across, use the DS to go there. It's somewhat more difficult with Difficult Terrain involved, because you try and DS out of it and then run + use next turn's movement to get in, but it's not impossible.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> 'Making your points back' is a silly concept. Do you take Rhinos expecting the Storm Bolter to kill 35pts worth of troops? No.


Ah, it's such a relief, after 3 years, to finally see someone else post that...


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I said in the other thread, I scythe them in and have had moderately good success with that. I'd also like to jump on board and say it's more important for your models to contribute to victory and serve their purpose than kill their points value.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> 'Making your points back' is a silly concept. Do you take Rhinos expecting the Storm Bolter to kill 35pts worth of troops? No. There's a good article about it on 3++; if you type 'Fallacy 40k: Making your points back' into your chosen search engine you'll find it.
> 
> Deathmarks can be awesome, but can fail. If you DS near a target, then they take an assault or something and die. No, their ideal use is to DS them into a good vantage point, not even necessarily near to your opponent - say, for example, there's a nice big hill with a cliff edge on the board edge, about halfway across, use the DS to go there. It's somewhat more difficult with Difficult Terrain involved, because you try and DS out of it and then run + use next turn's movement to get in, but it's not impossible.
> 
> Midnight


Rhinos? No. I typically consider transports as part of the unit they are bought with. But I do see your point. A Land Raider for example will rarely kill 250+ points in a game, while a 105-130 point Ravager will destroy said Land Raider easily. It's an out modded concept that my gaming club still uses and a bad habit to break, like those who blow on dice for luck. I've actually seen that and it looked like blowing on them made them roll worse but the guy kept doing it. 

Anyway. As Sothot said, it is more important that they contribute to victory. Of course, with high cost models like Necrons and Marines, killing their same number of points typically works. But I perhaps should have said that my Deathmarks typically destroy a unit when they arrive. I don't find sitting in a vantage point to work with their short-range weaponry. In my last game, my squad of 5 DS(turn 2 as they have the miraculous habit of doing) and took out a squad of Dire Avengers. As you said, next turn they were assaulted by Striking Scorpions but actually stayed alive until my assault unit reached them. So they kill their marked unit and then tar pit something.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, when said Marked unit is a Troops choice, even better!


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

With the chaos example, there were no terminators, otherwise I would have but yeah, I rarely Deep strike them unless it is a big game, if i have my veil tek I can start the game with on them out of the way on the board, so then I can use them when I want to and won't have to roll to bring them in from reserve, then just veil to where I want them to be.

A lot of them time all you really need to do is bring them into an area which isn't dangerous if you scatter and then walk if you need to, most games I use them they are in range of the marked target after walking for a turn, granted theycan get shot at but atleast I won't wipe them out DS. The veil is for a more of an emergeny in-case-of-assault-by-big-scary-unit-and-can't-out-run.

The only problem when you do this tactic is you have to mark a squad at the beginning and you may end up not being able to reach them or they may end up doing nothing and another squad takes them out, whereas if you DS them you can mark a unit which you know is causing problems then come in within range to them to take them out.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Falcoso, out of curiosity, what sized deathmark unit did you use and what was the point limit of the tournament?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

5 Deathmarks with attached Cryptek with Veil and Abyssal Staff (?), in a 1000pt tournament.

I was _there_.

Midnight


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> 'Making your points back' is a silly concept.


I will say that the rhino is a poor example- or even a landraider. They perform a different function and should be considered differently.

However, Deathmarks are specifically designed to kill a single unit in your opponents army- their relative killing potential should be measured in some fashion.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok then. I'll use a different example. Do you take a Power Fist on your Sergeants expecting them to kill 25pts worth of guys with it? Do you take a Librarian with the expectation of killing 100pts of guys? No. You take Power Fists because _you don't want to be in close combat._ You're saying 'Dreadnought, come near me and I'll rip you a new one'. You take a Librarian because he makes killing things easier for the rest of your army via Null Zone.

Nothing, even units with powerful weapons, should not be expected to make their points back. With Deathmarks, you leave a potentially very mean unit sitting around, forcing your opponent to deal with it.

I'll use an example from my gaming history - I have a unit of 5 Scouts, who outflank into a ruin in my opponenent's deployment zone on turn 2 (it's a small game, by the way, 1000pts if I remember rightly). My opponent has some Berzerkers ready to barrel towards my firebase protecting an objective. But now he has to take fire from my firebase in front of him, whilst putting up with Poison 2+ Blasts and a smattering of Bolter shots from behind, and his objectives are now at risk. He goes for the Scouts, butchering all of them, but after combat is left in the open to be shot at. I kill 8 with a Plasma Cannon, and probably win the game because of that (8 Berzerkers is a significant investment at 1000pts).

Did the Scouts do any damage, even though I payed extra to buy them offensive upgrades? No, but they were enough of a threat to act as an effective distraction, and the outcome was me winning the game. At the end of the day, that's all that counts - it doesn't matter if you're left with 2 Ork Boyz and a Grot left standing, as long as you win the game.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

You're missing the point - making your points back is always a bad criterion.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I should've just said that instead :biggrin:

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Haha, I enjoyed your essay.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Why can I write so much for Heresy and write so little for school? 

Midnight


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Why can I write so much for Heresy and write so little for school?
> 
> Midnight


...because you're busy writing for Heresy?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Ok then. I'll use a different example. Do you take a Power Fist on your Sergeants expecting them to kill 25pts worth of guys with it? Do you take a Librarian with the expectation of killing 100pts of guys? No. You take Power Fists because _you don't want to be in close combat._ You're saying 'Dreadnought, come near me and I'll rip you a new one'. You take a Librarian because he makes killing things easier for the rest of your army via Null Zone.
> 
> Nothing, even units with powerful weapons, should not be expected to make their points back. With Deathmarks, you leave a potentially very mean unit sitting around, forcing your opponent to deal with it.
> 
> ...


So through their direct action, they eliminated 8 zerkers- and if they hadn't, they threatened his scoring? I would say that was making your points back. Definitely provided you with more destruction/advantages than their points cost. 

right?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Objectives have no points value, and Troops have no more inherent points value despite being more valuable. If you think of things in terms of points, you are setting yourself up to fail.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I would like to say that in some instances I expect to get my points back. Am I gonna attach a res orb lord to a squad of 5 warriors? No. It's not worth the points. Am I gonna attach it to a group of 20? Heck yes. It's likely to make its points back for me.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

While we are on Deathmarks, do they "remark" if they get redeployed with the Veil of Darkness?


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

As it is a redeployment, it technically counts though I feel this goes against the spirit of the necron rules and will hopefully be FAQ'd.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

I like the idea of the deathmarks being movile after their initial ds. My friend uses obyrin rather than a cryptec and lychguard instead of deathmarks. Jeje. I find that a lot of the overlooked units do well at lower point values. My mandrakes are killer at 500pts for example.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Why can I write so much for Heresy and write so little for school?
> 
> Midnight


Because cool spaceman killy stuff trumps a review of "Macbeth "


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> While we are on Deathmarks, do they "remark" if they get redeployed with the Veil of Darkness?


They only "mark" when deploying. The rules for the Veil of Darkness were actually written very carefully. There is no mention of "deploy" nor "redeploy." It sayd to remove them and then place them anywhere else using the rules for Deepstrike. I had the thought when I first bought some Deathmarks and carefully read their rules and the Veils. No such synergy. You might be able to do "remarks" with the C'Tan and Grand Illusion though. But I've not looked into it as you'd want 2 units of Deathmarks at least, so adding the C'Tan eats all your Elites.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Why 2 units of Deathmarks?


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Archon, the exact passage is thus: 
Pg 84. Veil of Darkness
(FLUFF)
The Cryptek can summon a veil of darkness which twists and billows like a ghostly cloak blown by an ethereal breeze. When the darkness ebbs, the Cryptek and his comrades have disappeared, only to rematerialize some distance away.
(RULES)
A Cryptek with a veil of darkness can use it in its Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Cryptek and his unit are REMOVED from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield. The veil of darkness cannot be used if the Cryptek or his unit are locked in combat.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Cause you could mark up to 4 units if it worked. It means that you're opponent would have more units to worry about keeping away from the Deathmarks. But I suppose 2 marked is a good threat too.



Lord Azune said:


> Archon, the exact passage is thus:
> Pg 84. Veil of Darkness
> (FLUFF)
> The Cryptek can summon a veil of darkness which twists and billows like a ghostly cloak blown by an ethereal breeze. When the darkness ebbs, the Cryptek and his comrades have disappeared, only to rematerialize some distance away.
> ...


Don't have my codex handy as a friend is borrowing it. Not sure why the exact quote is needed as I got the pertinent part. Both your quote and my paraphrase reach the same conclusion.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I disagree. Deep striking by nature is a method of deployment/redeployment. It's a very important difference from "Like a deepstrike" versus "deepstrike".


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Lord Azune said:


> I disagree. Deep striking by nature is a method of deployment/redeployment. It's a very important difference from "Like a deepstrike" versus "deepstrike".


Interesting point. I won't deny that it is something I'd like to do with my Deathmarks. But I ruled it out too soon maybe. Figured it would get protested by my gaming group, whose patients has run out with Necron abilities. So I prevented myself you could say.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I concur, as I said earlier it seems like it'd be broken but requires some hint from above. I'm hoping for a FAQ.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

In no way is it broken - powerful, sure...but without it, Deathmarks are pretty mediocre.

Once you get over the 'oh, new!' feeling, Necrons are somewhat limited in options and IF they were FAQ'd (incorrectly, according to the RAW, but not for the 1st time) not to work and re-mark with Veil moves, then Necrons would have no useful Elite slots at all.

The Triarch Stalker isn't usually considered bad, however the combination of no Dreadnought CCW, cost, having only 1 weapon, the likelihood of the Heat Ray killing what you shoot and preventing the twin-link thingy working, and that I expect a model more akin to a Defiler in height than a normal Dread (ie, too hard to get Cover) means that I don't see it as a truly viable option. Maybe if Ghost Arks didn't cost so damn much.

@Dan - no offence to your friends, but if they have an issue with something in your Codex, they should wise up. You are entitled to use anything in your Codex you see fit, it's your money, and your Hobby too. If they don't like it, they should start a new army.

@Azune - oh, and vis-a-vis a ResiLord? Bear in mind you're not only paying the exorbitant price of the Orb itself - you're paying for a Lord, and inevitably a Warscythe, that you will probably not get anything else out of for the entire game. Good as Warscythes are, a single I2 model with one poses no real deterrent to charging 4+ save guys with no special CCWs, I2, and few Attacks. In the case for 'getting points back' for this scenario, you'd need to resurrect, what, 9 Warriors you wouldn't have otherwise? Is that right? For me, a Resi Orb ONLY belongs if you also have a Phaeron attached and probably a Veil, and even then, Deathstars are bad.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

There is a LOT of weight put on the single use of the word "deploy" in the Deep Strike rule, I'd contend that is only applies when you roll for arrival out of reserve.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

TKE, I don't use a ton of warscythes. I'm more likely to leave it bare and use a staff of light and orb.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

But the Warscythe is absolutely the best upgrade in the book, point-for-point...

Mags - no, because if the were the case then a mishap putting you back in reserve surely wouldn't count either?


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

If you're trying to boost them in CC maybe. All I want is to give them a higher chance of comming back from the dead.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Mags - no, because if the were the case then a mishap putting you back in reserve surely wouldn't count either?


Sorry what do you mean?

Edit: hang on I see what you mean. 

I guess I wrote it wrong but I have seen it argued, at length, that the use of the word deploy in the DS rule makes any DS insertion a DEPLOY.

I am of the opinion that you DEPLOY to the board once and once only. Subsequent insertions by DS or any other method are not deployments. So if the DM's get sent to reserve by a mishap and then come back later I'd not consider that a deployment.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

But if they Mishap then they were never on the table, and thus never actually deployed...


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I think Mag assumed veil mishappinf.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> But if they Mishap then they were never on the table, and thus never actually deployed...


In that case yes, that is to say if this is their first DS and they've not hit the table yet, if it is when they Veil after having deployed then get sent to reserve then it wouldn't be a deployment.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> In that case yes, that is to say if this is their first DS and they've not hit the table yet, if it is when they Veil after having deployed then get sent to reserve then it wouldn't be a deployment.


Which I understand, but is still inconsistent. There is no mechanical difference between a redeploy by Veil and a deploy by DS, whether initial, or Mishap'd.

As the rule is written, it is consistent. If fluff is an issue, perhaps the Cryptek returns to DeathmarkVille with the DMs, and returns with a DIFFERENT unit, brought to battle by the promise of whatever it is Deathmarks fight for...


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Which I understand, but is still inconsistent. There is no mechanical difference between a redeploy by Veil and a deploy by DS, whether initial, or Mishap'd.
> 
> As the rule is written, it is consistent. If fluff is an issue, perhaps the Cryptek returns to DeathmarkVille with the DMs, and returns with a DIFFERENT unit, brought to battle by the promise of whatever it is Deathmarks fight for...


hmmmm, yes I see what you mean but the rule does say "begin the game in reserve" so that is the distinction for me, the veil units are going back to the beginning of the game, they just step out for a bit.

Mind you it's probably a fairly moot point? I can't imagine it happens too often that a unit veils, mishaps, reserves, returns and still has time to do anything useful.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Either way surely if you mark a new target the old one becomes 'unmarked', a veil of darkness can't actually bring a unit out of reserve so it isn't really redeploying. Also in the Hunters from hyperspace rule it say when the deathmarks deploy, which sought of imply in my opinion that re-deploying doesn't let you remark cus u have already deployed.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Lord Azune said:


> A Cryptek with a veil of darkness can use it in its Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Cryptek and his unit are REMOVED from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield. The veil of darkness cannot be used if the Cryptek or his unit are locked in combat.


I remember back in the good old days when necrons had good initiative, that the old veil would let you get out of combat... until they went and ruined it


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I think if you mishap back into reserve, you prolong marking a unit until you're actually on the table. I don't believe our spiritual liege Mr. Ward meant the veil of darkness to DEPLOY for a second time, thus potentially marking units every turn of the game.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

gally912 said:


> So through their direct action, they eliminated 8 zerkers- and if they hadn't, they threatened his scoring? I would say that was making your points back. Definitely provided you with more destruction/advantages than their points cost.
> 
> right?


They didn't kill 85pts of troops. They opened up an opportunity to kill that twice or three times over, but their direct actions did not kill enemy troops. They did, however, win me the game, as it forced a choice on my opponent - take fire and lose an objective, or not get his Berzerkers into combat until the final few turns of the game. As it was, he chose option two when option one may have been a better decision.

To 'make their points back', the unit has to be dead cheap, suicidal, or lucky. For example, Codex: Space Marines get dirt cheap Assault Terminators with Hammer and Shield. They can charge a unit of Nobz or Tyranid Warriors that cost a lot more than they do, or a Monstrous Creature that costs about the same or a little more (Trygons, Greater Daemons, Tyrannofexen etc.) and kill it horribly. They'll die like bitches to the 180pt Boyz squad, but they can 'make their points back' by counter-attacking the enemy's elite combat units.

Midnight

EDIT: You mark a unit with HfH when you 'deploy', so 'deploying by deep strike' would, RAW, give you another marked unit, in my opinion.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I concur Midnight. RAW they would. 

Falcoso. Hunters never says any condition in which the unit loses mark. Officially, they would still have mark because there is no removal process. (exception: The FAQ does state if you mark a unit with an IC and the IC leaves, he is not marked.)


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> @Dan - no offence to your friends, but if they have an issue with something in your Codex, they should wise up. You are entitled to use anything in your Codex you see fit, it's your money, and your Hobby too. If they don't like it, they should start a new army.


They're still reeling from my use of Imotekh in a big multi-player game. They were not happy having to roll for LOS for 3 turns. Nevermind that the darkness helped my side win, even my allies are still mad about it. I'm sort of banned from using him. And I'm hanging by a thread with Writhing Worldscape C'Tan. I think as long as I don't use it every big game I'll be okay. The big game's mission required that most things be left in reserve(at least as far as Necrons are concerned). And in an odd and fluffy coincidence, Imotekh did not arrive until turn 4. Like he waited for his storm to end before going to get his hands dirty.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

falcoso said:


> Either way surely if you mark a new target the old one becomes 'unmarked', a veil of darkness can't actually bring a unit out of reserve so it isn't really redeploying. Also in the Hunters from hyperspace rule it say when the deathmarks deploy, which sought of imply in my opinion that re-deploying doesn't let you remark cus u have already deployed.


That is how I read it but the rules aren't written that clearly. 

The Veil of Darkness sort of can bring a unit out of reserve if they mishap and get placed in reserve when trying to veil, but like you I don't see that as deploying.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> EDIT: You mark a unit with HfH when you 'deploy', so 'deploying by deep strike' would, RAW, give you another marked unit, in my opinion.


That is what I was alluding to before.

The rule for Veil says they "immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield" no mention of deploy. 

In the Deep Strike rules the rule talks about placing units in reserve at the start of the game and then "deploy them as follows", which I mean to read they deploy in this way which is different to how other units deploy. 

So to my mind the correct RAW is that Deep Striking does not necessarily mean you are deploying.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Are there similar bans on the special characters of other armies, Archon Dan? And a Writhing C'tan?! Your group is trying to neuter your army and that doesn't soundfun for anyone. I can understand being a gentleman and not playing Imotekh... Games where he's involved tend to drag on an extra hour or so what with all his extra rolls, but still. You're paying the points to use those rules and not including many more models than otherwise.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Sothot said:


> Are there similar bans on the special characters of other armies, Archon Dan? And a Writhing C'tan?! Your group is trying to neuter your army and that doesn't soundfun for anyone. I can understand being a gentleman and not playing Imotekh... Games where he's involved tend to drag on an extra hour or so what with all his extra rolls, but still. You're paying the points to use those rules and not including many more models than otherwise.


+1

Of course that might make it hard to find a game?


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, your gaming group is what it is, and sometimes to keep that group functional and...well, gaming, you have to avoid certain tactics or units. But to do the Writhing C'tan combo, you're spending over 400 points on a C'tan and Orikan (because you took Orikan, right? Riiight?!) Plus an extra couple hundred on some Crypteks to keep it working. That's a lot of points to put 6 or 7 models on the table. All you have to do is avoid terrain and kill the few Necrons you've shoehorned in around that and you're laughing.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> 'Making your points back' is a silly concept. Do you take Rhinos expecting the Storm Bolter to kill 35pts worth of troops? No. There's a good article about it on 3++; if you type 'Fallacy 40k: Making your points back' into your chosen search engine you'll find it.
> 
> Deathmarks can be awesome, but can fail. If you DS near a target, then they take an assault or something and die. No, their ideal use is to DS them into a good vantage point, not even necessarily near to your opponent - say, for example, there's a nice big hill with a cliff edge on the board edge, about halfway across, use the DS to go there. It's somewhat more difficult with Difficult Terrain involved, because you try and DS out of it and then run + use next turn's movement to get in, but it's not impossible.
> 
> Midnight


http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/10/forumitis-earning-your-points-back.html

I believe this is the article.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Lol, trying to deal with both threads of conversation here in one post, but not bothering to quote cos my Internets are slow tonight...ok.

Firstly - Deep Striking. You MUST Deploy when DS'ing, or else you couldn't use Combat Squads as you do, and CS upon arrival from Reserve as specified (and FINALLY made clear to everyone, not just me, in the last FAQ.) If we don't consider the use of the word to be either relevant or correct in its application the way I say, then a unit 'deploys' in Reserve, which is inconsistent with the above rule, and with another one that escapes me at present, but may come back...Also, it would mean you have to choose the Marked unit when you deploy the army, irrespective of where the Deathmarks are. I'm not sure if they can choose a unit inside a Transport, or in Reserve, as a target - but if it isn't Deploying to deploy with the Deep Strike rules every time, then it never is.

As for Imotekh...

Firstly, I thought he had to be on the board to Lord of the Storm? I accept that may have been wrong.
Secondly - if you're playing screwy missions and/or Apocalypse, they shouldn't let that have any bearing on what's overpowered or not, irrespective of whether or not screwy missions/Apoc are your standard play in the area, as some things are broken in some limited circumstances despite being crap otherwise (see Swooping Hawks with Melta Bombs in Planetstrike...)
Thirdly - Not happy about rolling for LoS?? Do they also ban Dawn of War deployments, Stealth Suits, Harlequins, Solar Pulses, Night Shields, The Blue Scribes and Line of Sight blocking terrain, because it interferes with their ability to shoot from distance? Do they ignore Shaken and Stunned results? Silly, I know, but Imotekh costs a TON, and hinders both players equally. Also, most Imperials get free Searchlights and/or Night Vision/Acute Senses.

Finally - if these are unilateral bans, this is victimisation because (sorry) they seem to lack the wherewithal to understand how to counter a threat and the cojones to try and overcome it. If they are banning other armies' things too...well, it's still entirely subjective, and probably I would find the list of what makes them throw the toys out of the pram in equal measure laughable and depressing.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

The rule is that an army including Imotekh activates storm rules, so he can still be reserved and cause storm. That was also a very good explanation of deployment through deep strike, commendations.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Firstly - Deep Striking. You MUST Deploy when DS'ing, or else you couldn't use Combat Squads as you do, and CS upon arrival from Reserve as specified (and FINALLY made clear to everyone, not just me, in the last FAQ.)


I'm not saying that when you deploy via Deep Strike you are not deploying I am saying you CAN deploy using Deep Strike but using Deep Strike isn't deploying in it self, therefore units that leave and return via Deep Strike after they have first deployed are not subsequently deploying.

I guess the combat squad example is a good one, I wouldn't think you can have a 10 man Strike Squad and then combat squad them by having the Libby Summon them. Nor indeed would I think that you can Combat Squad a unit that gets mishapped into reserve when it tries to Summon.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

You could indeed, the latter. See the Blood Angels FAQ quote here:


BA FAQ said:


> Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat
> Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat
> squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,
> two different locations? (p23)
> A: Yes.


It's the same in the others. Such as the GK FAQ itself, where we find:


> Q: If a unit being transported with The Summoning
> psychic power suffers a Delayed mishap what happens?
> (p25)
> A: They are placed in Reserve and will arrive by Deep
> Strike anywhere on the board once they turn up again.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Actually Magpie.. Deepstrike is a method of reserves which is a method of deployment. Therefore Deepstriking is a deployment.

Though as we're on the subject of Veilteks and Deathmarks. I'd love for someone to point out where Veil gives the cryptek the Deepstrike rule rather than allowing them to move using it. I say this because of everyone trying to use them to deepstrike them together initially.

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
special rule for it to do so

(Note, I say this so you'll think about it and actually deploy them on the field to begin with and then jump them around with said veiltek if that's the plan.)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Neither of which says deploy.

I might, actually I wouldn't but I can see how it might be read that way, concede that if you mishapped into reserve you might trigger this one but if you are moved across the board by something that causes you to re-enter play via deep strike neither of these FAQ's indicate that you are deploying.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Lord Azune said:


> Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
> from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
> A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
> special rule for it to do so
> ...


Its semantics. You can use the veil as your from-edge move, making it identical to deep strike in every way, just not _called_ deep striking. It only prevents Phased Reinforcements and Ethereal Intervention, which exclusively state the unit must be deep strike-capable.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Not purely semantics Iron Angel. A unit in Reserve, under normal circumstances, CANNOT decide to move onto the board via Deep Strike, Outflank, or any other means but from the board edge as described.

Veils granting a specific alteration to this rule is actually a huge change to the normal process.

EDIT: Also,


Mags said:


> Neither of which says deploy...neither of these FAQ's indicate that you are deploying.


They don't need to. On three occasions the Deep Strike rules specify that the unit is Deployed when using those rules, and it is also noted under the Reserves rules. Want quotes?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> They don't need to. On three occasions the Deep Strike rules specify that the unit is Deployed when using those rules, and it is also noted under the Reserves rules. Want quotes?


Yes please as I am keen to be able to Combat Squad my units as they jump out of my Storm Raven.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Its semantics. You can use the veil as your from-edge move, making it identical to deep strike in every way, just not _called_ deep striking. It only prevents Phased Reinforcements and Ethereal Intervention, which exclusively state the unit must be deep strike-capable.


Actually, the rulebook states: Each models movement is measured from the edge of the battlefield as if they had been positioned just off the board. Nowhere does it say they get an actual movement phase.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Lol, trying to deal with both threads of conversation here in one post, but not bothering to quote cos my Internets are slow tonight...ok.
> 
> Firstly - Deep Striking. You MUST Deploy when DS'ing, or else you couldn't use Combat Squads as you do, and CS upon arrival from Reserve as specified (and FINALLY made clear to everyone, not just me, in the last FAQ.) If we don't consider the use of the word to be either relevant or correct in its application the way I say, then a unit 'deploys' in Reserve, which is inconsistent with the above rule, and with another one that escapes me at present, but may come back...Also, it would mean you have to choose the Marked unit when you deploy the army, irrespective of where the Deathmarks are. I'm not sure if they can choose a unit inside a Transport, or in Reserve, as a target - but if it isn't Deploying to deploy with the Deep Strike rules every time, then it never is.
> 
> ...



I think the real issue is that he did not start on table. Because if he had, he would have been targeted right away. And it's not like they officially said I can't use him so much as when I show up for the big games each month they say, "You didn't bring Imotekh did you?" Which makes it uncomfortable to use him. I should just say screw them but I want to have fun and recieving angry glares detracts from that. Writhing Worldscape is easy enough to avoid even if they can't kill my C'Tan, but 3 turns of night fighting was apparently too much. Maybe next time I'll have a Harbinger of Eternity with him and make it last longer. But I'll get my revenge when we play Rumble in the Jungle, where the entire board is forest and I bring my Writhin Worldscape C'Tan again. Imotekh might show up too as it's 2000 points but that seems overkill. And no, as far as I know nothing is banned but I guess certain things are frowned upon. -sigh-


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

You should start moaning about some arbitrary unit in their force...maybe the fluff disconnect of a Blood Angel force containing no Tactical Marines or something.

As for Combat Squads out of a Stormraven...

The Deep Strike rules say:


First paragraph said:


> Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then *deploy them* as follows.





Under mishaps said:


> If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot *be deployed *because they would land off the table...





Mishap chart; Misplaced said:


> Your opponent may *deploy the unit* anywhere on the table


So using the Deep Strike rules is a form of unit deployment, I think there can be no question of this.

Stormravens say


> Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved over and *deploy the squad* as if it were deep striking onto that point.


NOTE - the second over in that sentence is superfluous and clunky. 

Anyway, I don't think it can be argued by RaW that you cannot Combat Squad jumping out of a Stormraven.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Anyway, I don't think it can be argued by RaW that you cannot Combat Squad jumping out of a Stormraven.


I am interested to see the look on my opponents face when I swoop my Raven over two objectives and drop a combat squad on each.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Nonono - you must disembark at the same point. They aren't deploying until they hit the deck, and the whole unit must disembark as one. While inside (as with a Drop Pod) they are one unit.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

How on earth do you figure that?

They are jumping out the back if we go off fluff but I really can't see rules wise how there is any distinction between the two.

If deep strike is ALWAYS deploying in the start of game sense then all that goes along with deploying, deathmarks, combat squads et al have to apply as well.

I don't agree at all. "Deploy" is what you do once in the game to get into play, anything after that is not a "deployment" as the rule says "enter play" and "begin the game in reserve". Other rules use the mechanism of the Deep Strike but aren't deploying in the biblical sense despite, in true GW style, using the word repeatedly.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I wasn't aware Jesus was deployed. opcorn:

The mechanism described is Deep Strike is a type of deployment, as the first quote illustrates. If you are using a method of deployment, you are deploying.

I'm confused as to why you think you can disembark separately?


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Can't argue with the word deploy. If it weren't there I'd argue it says like a deepstrike instead of being a deepstrike.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> I wasn't aware Jesus was deployed. opcorn:


I was alluding to "know" in the bib... oh never mind




TheKingElessar said:


> The mechanism described is Deep Strike is a type of deployment, as the first quote illustrates. If you are using a method of deployment, you are deploying.


I covered that before



TheKingElessar said:


> I'm confused as to why you think you can disembark separately?


Because you Combat Squad "when the unit is deployed" and can do so in separate locations.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

You can mark a squad which is in a transport but I don't know about reserve units. I guess u could re-mark if the veil of darkness makes u go back into reserve but t is a risky way of playing and would probably be more of a luck thing


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sure, but even though the squad Deploys, they can only do so after yuo declare they are Disembarking - which can only be done as a Collective, you cannot disembark half a squad and leave half in the vehicle - and they cannot become separate squads until after they disembark, as a Transport may never carry two units where it doesn't say otherwise (and the Raven's exception ONLY permits a Dreadnought as the second unit.)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So really it's not actually "deploying" is it.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Technically it is. It allows them to split as normal to... hit the ground running, so to speak.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So you can drop them in two spots then


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

The way my group has always done it is deployment is a single phase pre game. Absolutely everything that will be happening is "deployed and declared." Your troops are "deployed into reserve" or "deployed into deep strike." We assume that use of the term "deploy" after this phase is simply easier than saying "has arrived on the table." In this way, the Deathmarks choose their mark in the deployment pre-game, and subsequent deep strikes will not cause an additional mark. I assumed this was the proper way of "deploying"


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

...I'm just lost now , u would mark as soon as u get on the table even if that includes in a transport (if that is what u mean)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You would mark as soon as you get onto the table; a unit is 'deployed in their transport' so they choose their target at that moment. Deathmarks mark a target when they hit the board, in a vehicle or no.

So if you Deep Strike a Night Scythe, I guess you choose the DM target then.

Midnight


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Incorrect Magpie, as the rule says pick a point, not several points. and deploy the unit. So they can deepstrike and split, and then run towards separate points.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Well the rules state in the disembarking section that you deploy when disembarking, so "deploy" is used for other things than just arriving from reserves.

Seems it means physically putting the models on the table.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Lord Azune said:


> Incorrect Magpie, as the rule says pick a point, not several points. and deploy the unit. So they can deepstrike and split, and then run towards separate points.


ya think? The rules for Deep Striking from reserves say "place one model from the unit" so I guess Combat Squadding any DS unit is out then?

I actually don't think you can combat squad from a Stormraven but if you're going to insist that deploying is deploying is deploying then it is all or nothing. You can't pick and choose the bits that suit and leave out the bits that don't

I'm with Sothot and believe his interpretation of the whole situation to be 100% correct.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Honestly seems like we could use a GW FAQ on the definition of Deploying as sad as that sounds.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)




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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Bravo Angel... Bravo.... Now if someone can post the Picard Facepalm pic, I'd appreciate it.


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