# AP vs Rate of Fire



## Mortalis (Aug 23, 2008)

So I seen this topic on another website.... think it was Bell of Lost Souls, not sure thou and wanted to see what most people thought on the subject.

Me personally I'm a rate of fire person. Even marines fall under heavy flash light fire "Lasguns for those that dont know--lol" Rate of fire has always done well for me vs reg armour or cover saves. Just my thoughts, anyone else?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I play Orks. :laugh:
Next question...

Seriously, I think it depends on the cost, more than anything. The Starcannon isn't useless now because it only has 2 shots, but because it only has two shots _and_ costs more than an EML.


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## Weirdboyz (Apr 12, 2009)

I prefer...balanced? The more shots the better, becausde they will start failing saves. However, against 2+ saves.....I like having some Ap2 and Ap1 one guns sitting around.


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## jasonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

I would say balanced is a good way to go if you dont know what you're up against. Whatcategory would a pieplate fall under?


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## Weirdboyz (Apr 12, 2009)

awesome? *sigh*


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think it's still worth having some AP 1 and 2 weapons around. Not just because of armour saves, but because of stuff like feel no pain and vehicle damage.

Actually quite a lot of the weapons I use have low AP. I have a couple of vindicators that do quite well and all my special weps are melta guns.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Melta is slightly different though...the AP is almost incidental - it's the double penetration that's the real kicker...


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

When i pick what weapons to give my units, I don't have a prefference. What I do instead is anticipate how many rounds of shooting the weapon will get, so I know how many shots are going to be fired. Then take into account BS of the unit, to figure out how many hits I expect. Then same for wounds (assuming T4, Sv 3+). Then I know which weapon is best, based on how many marines I expect it to kill in a game.


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

it pays to have both types, against non meqs high rate of fire is amazing, but id still take meltaguns like crazy if im going against the deathwing or something.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Rate of fire is always useful, though my armies seem to amass a collection of Low AP weapons... I like having low AP pie plates or Save denying Templates, Flamers of Tzeentch, I love you


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I only use bolters and the strategic and cunning use of flags.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> I only use bolters and the strategic and cunning use of flags.



I would like to see how cunning you can be with a flag 

I go ROF everytime. I know its very handy to have low AP wpns and I do tend to take the meltagun option for AP results more than anything, and I am still trying to fire and assualt everything I can in one turn like I used too, but there is something to be said for throwing buckets of dice at your enemy till he keels over and you can yell SNAKE EYES MOFO! remove that Chapter master....


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

Hahaha, I think hoping for snake eyes is a little risky...  lol


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## HivefleetIngensus (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm a nid player, so rate of fire FTW!

I do have some low ap weaponry, Zoanthropes w/warp blast. Either way, the only other low ap weapon we have is Biovores, but I don't field them. Everything else is 5,-, or 4. Nothing all that low.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I think it depends on the BS of the shooting unit. If you have great BS then I would go for AP every time. If, on the other hand, your BS would make a one-armed mole with a nervous disorder look like a true sniper then you really need volume of fire and as many shots as possible.

BS4+ I would go with AP
BS3- I would go with rate of fire


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Alexious said:


> I would like to see how cunning you can be with a flag


I bring flags to any and all events I go to, as soon as I am challenged, I plant said flag(s) into the table and declare it in the name of the Alpha Legion. Provided no opponents have flags, I claim victory and back it up with the bolters.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Remind me to bring flags and claim the table in the name of the God-Emperor!


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## jasonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

i must now make flags..... I will use this in my upcoming tournament. "I capture this table in the name of the Emperor!"(but in hungarian)


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## Ensanguined Priest (Feb 11, 2009)

Rate of fire Everytime :biggrin:
My BA strikeforce is full of Assault Cannons and my Nids' full of Devourers.
Low AP things are nice, but i always prefer the chance of killing plenty models in a turn of shooting :wink:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I would have said RoF always over AP before I actually started thinking about this... my nids have a huge amount of fire and my SW rely on the CC equivalent (basic blood claw has 4A at WS3...) so I certainly cover the base for massed attacks. Having said that though I do love zoanthropes, bio-acid-vores, vindicators, plasma cannon dreads and general plasmaguns

I think that I would have to say that I like a base of RoF (to see what sticks) and then a small amount of lower AP stuff to force the opponent to have to think about cover ect- if everything I throw ignores cover (via armour save being as good or better) then my opponent can just stand in teh open without worry... I dont like giving anyone that easy an out; forcing them to try to grab cover to protect against a few shots and then throwing another 100 shots where cover is irrelevant is more my style


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

well i like a balanced approach, playing guard we already have the high ROF nailed with our basic troops, and we can have alot of them. So i tend to add more low AP waepons to provide a bit of unexpected instant kill goodness.

Ususally i try to go for a 60/30/10 mix, 60% of my weapons being a high ROF, minimal/no AP, low S. 30% being medium AP/ROF/S. 10% being high S/AP low ROF.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Its a simple statistical question, for example noise marines have great fire rate, but statisticaly you are better off taking some plasma weapons or oblits for high armor rating enemies.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> I bring flags to any and all events I go to, as soon as I am challenged, I plant said flag(s) into the table and declare it in the name of the Alpha Legion. Provided no opponents have flags, I claim victory and back it up with the bolters.


Oh... I thought it'd be through semaphore...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I love my RoF weapons but thinking through my normal army lists there are a whole lot of AP weapons... weirdly my Nids are almost maxed on their low ap weapons (I take zoanthropes and biovores.. just lack warp blast on my tyrants).

I think the differences in this thread are just amount of AP/RoF: a pure RoF army will be able to cope with anything but wont be happy to see units with a 2+ save or FNP. A pure AP army will get screwed over by hoards, invulnerable saves, cover saves and probably will suffer from low model count... so in a direct comparison RoF is far better.

Having said that I prefer the balanced (or slightly RoF weighted armies)- they throw enough at the wall for a lot to stick but can still manage the occasional surgical strike to punch holes in concentrated armour. The best example of this is nids: a mix of devourer armed units and zoanthropes is lethal to marines... it can pump out wounds like nothing else but any DS'ing marines or units that happen to be clustered out of cover will be wiped out very rapidly by the AP3 warp blasts of the 'thropes.

I have experimented with similar tactics in the past- my fexs throw S8 AP5 large blasts into units in cover and my zoanthropes fire the AP3 blasts at marines in the open... befoer now the combination of those with a few long range biovores and/or devourer shots has all but anhiliated marine armies before I even got close


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## SuperNovice (Mar 20, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Having said that I prefer the balanced (or slightly RoF weighted armies)- they throw enough at the wall for a lot to stick but can still manage the occasional surgical strike to punch holes in concentrated armour.


This is the way I feel as well, assuming I'm making a generic list. ROF is the better option in this case as enough volume can overwhelm good saves. That combined with the high points cost of most low save models and you'll at least have a chance against almost any opponent. On the flip side, if you show up with a bunch of low AP weapons against a horde army, you're pretty much screwed.

I still think it's worthwhile though to have a few low AP weapons in my army though so I tend towards ROF with some specialized units thrown in with high str, low AP weapons to deal with tanks/termies/etc.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Against 3+ saves, rate of fire helps, but AP helps more.

Vs marines, a Multimelta or Krak missile is usually more effective than a Heavy Bolter for example (if only fractionally). BS and S also play important roles.

Guardsmen miss half the time, so half your ROF goes right out the window right there.

S3 weapons vs T4 troopers means only 1/3 of those that actually hit are going to wound. So now we're at 1/6 your effective rate of fire.

Now, against 3+ saves, again only 1/3 of that is going to penetrate the armor. So we're at 1/9th so for every nine or ten shots, you'll get one kill.

That means you need truly overwhelming firepower to do much damage with just lasguns.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Whatever you can get the most out of on the cheap. Having ap 1 or 2 stuff is great for termies, FNP, etc., but loading up on it isn't a good idea. When I'm playing Tau I like to have plasma rifles at my disposal since they're high strength, good range, and low AP, but most of my firepower is in that str 5 ap 5 and lots of shots category.


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## heartoffury (Jun 17, 2009)

*On the fence...sort of*

I have to agree completely with Tim/Steve. I generally prefer RoF, but it's always good to have a smattering of good AP.

I habitually play SM/Chaos, so my nids' lack of enough good AP is frustrating, but if you pile tons of shots on they have to fail their saves sooner or later. Even my spinegaunts have taken out a healthy chaos lord in one round of shooting.

That being said, I still like having low AP weapons for those units that I just have to get off the table ASAP.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Galahad said:


> Guardsmen miss half the time, so half your ROF goes right out the window right there.


While that's obviously true, I don't see it as relevant to this question. Half a guardsman's shots will miss regardless of whether they are high RoF or low.

On the other hand, it can be an argument for using blast weapons instead, and forgetting RoF and AP. These tend to hit smoething, and punish low BS far less than a standard roll to hit.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Against 3+ saves, rate of fire helps, but AP helps more.
> 
> Vs marines, a Multimelta or Krak missile is usually more effective than a Heavy Bolter for example (if only fractionally). BS and S also play important roles.
> 
> ...


Actualy its about 18 shots from guardsmen xD, compared to 2 shots of melta (or 4 with cover), so yeh...

Also after playing some games i came to conclusion that troops or other kind of mass weak firepower just doesnt kill anything important, the harder stuff does, so my games basicaly go around oblits/princes/meele killing stuff, and marines get to actualy kill smth if enemy is foolish enough to let some really flimsy troops get shot.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

im not sure what this falls under but my personal favorite weapon in the game is an assault cannon. It has a high rate of fire and a good enough AP to cause some pain. The rending adds in the little potential you sometimes need to win a round. 

so long story shot, if it is AP 4 and has 2+ shots ill probably take as many of them as I can possibly grab. Anything else is just bonus


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## col44mag (Mar 30, 2008)

I prefer AP. I've had too many turns of blasting away with bolters or heavy bolters only to bounce off and no one die. Atleast with something (ie. Lascannon) if it hits they're pretty much dead. But from a strategic standpoint balanced is probably best. ive been raped by quite a few horde armies


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

As a guard/ork player, I'm a big fan of quantity>quality. Lots of shots have always served me well. Three words: Leman Russ Punisher. A major waste of points in smaller battles, but I've found it to be very effective in larger battles. Against Necron Wraiths? A Broodlord? BAM! 32 shots at BS4 (Pask). Force enough saves on them and they will fail... Also, with so many cover saves out there, it often doesn't matter what your AP is. When everyone has a 4+ save no matter what, you're thankful for high RoF weapons.

Of course, I always have some plasma guns or something to pick off people who aren't in cover.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

col44mag said:


> I prefer AP. I've had too many turns of blasting away with bolters or heavy bolters only to bounce off and no one die. Atleast with something (ie. Lascannon) if it hits they're pretty much dead. But from a strategic standpoint balanced is probably best. ive been raped by quite a few horde armies


Ah the failings of marines- they really dont have the firepower to do a RoF army... 
eg
500pts could get you 30 tacs with 3 heavy bolters.. or 27-54 bolter and 9 heavy bolter shots.
Nids- 500pts can get you 40 termagants and 10 dakka warriors... or 40 fleshborer and 40 devourer
Thats a comparison of averages of 22 vs 32 wounds on T4 enemies... its no wonder Ive rarely if ever seen a SM RoF army... end ever rarer to see it successful.


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## col44mag (Mar 30, 2008)

You think that's bad bud? Trying playing Imperial guard shooting 80 lasguns and having 20 wound. Then they roll for for 3+ power armour saves


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

col44mag said:


> You think that's bad bud? Trying playing Imperial guard shooting 80 lasguns and having 20 wound. Then they roll for for 3+ power armour saves


Only 80? There's your problem.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I think an important thing to consider besides just AP and ROF is strength.

It may take a dozen lasguns to get the same ratio of kills as a melta against meqs, but a heavy bolter comes fairly close (still loses out, but not much)

Tau may not have the AP to put a serious hurt on marines, but their S5 pulse guns can still be quite effective. Same BS, same ROF, AP too low to matter, but the S5 makes them about twice as effective against marines.

While a HB may not be as effective as a MM against marines (33% chance of a kill vs 42%) it becomes a lot more effective when used againt Sv4+ or less, which means that it's still a lot more effective anti-troop weapon, just not as effective against marines. Against T4, Sv4+ it's got a solid 1 kill per volley, 100% chance of a kill, compared to less than half that when the sv is 3+ meanwhile the MM has the same 42%, really underscoring rof vs ap.

Also worth noting is that on a single shot, plasma guns have the same chance of killing a marine as a melta (2+ to wound for S6 or S8, and both ignore saves), but the plasgun is twice as effective at 12", though overheats are a worry.

So...yeah, lots of factors, really.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Agree completely with Gal.. except for his maths- Heavy bolter averages at 1 kill a turn vs T4 4+ saves but has only a 83% chance to kill something a turn (ie 17% of rounds it wont kill anyone).

Personally when I talk about RoF I like to work out the average wounds the guns will cause on T3, T4 and T6 depending on what I would normally shoot it at. Comparing 80 lasgun shots to 20 bolter shots just doesnt mean much to me... but against T4 13.3wounds vs 6.7wounds is clear (at this point I would also be wondering where the rest of the guard were... ).


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

well ap does do pretty well. A good example would be hellguns - their AP, despite their lower strength, allows them to kill marines better than bolters. ROF isn't a factor here, but in S vs AP, AP is often the better choice.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

worth noting though that while stormies with hellguns kill marines better than if they had boltguns, marines with boltguns kill stormies exactly as well as stormies kill marines.

So the two units in RF range will be trading body for body thanks to the lower toughness and save of a stormtrooper


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## tastytaste (Mar 31, 2009)

My friend's blog tackled this very issue. So instead of speaking for him here is a direct link on his take which I totally agree with.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=742


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## Slayer23942 (May 6, 2009)

Quantity, took out 20 terminaters with lots and lots of lasguns...


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

for us ork the more the better... (which mainly is as our BF is so "nice" ) so AP is not the real matter... hitting is more important ^^

"AP? whatz dat? we flash gitz even dunno how stronga we shoot till we shoot" :grin:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Galahad said:


> worth noting though that while stormies with hellguns kill marines better than if they had boltguns, marines with boltguns kill stormies exactly as well as stormies kill marines.
> 
> So the two units in RF range will be trading body for body thanks to the lower toughness and save of a stormtrooper


To me, this demonstrates why storm troopers suck (I lost track of whether that was your intention). They are designed to kill one type of guy, and cost the same as those guys - though those guys get free special weapons, but never mind about that for now. 

When they go against the guys they are specifically designed to fight, they break even on average in shooting, but lose spectacularly in cc and had better hope the enemy isn't in cover.

Against anything else, they are rubbish. I struggle to think of any unit that these guys really beat on a point for point basis. I'm sure there is one, but the application for these guys is so incredibly narrow that it doesn't really exist. Add onto that the price of getting them into position in a chimera or valk, and things get very silly. I always think it's a bad thing when you have to buy elites to deal with your opponent's troops.

Added to which, it's not as if IG suffer from a lack of low-ap weaponry. Just shoot the marines with a battlecannon and have done with it. A leman russ with plasma sponsons is pretty great; far more effective against any target than the stormies, and costs less than they do if you want to get them a transport. 

10 storm troopers at 12" kill about 4.5 orks or marines, or half that if they are in cover. Fail.

That isn't an argument against low ap weapons in general, just against storm troopers. In general I find ap 3 far less interesting than ap 1 or 2, when you start getting around FNP, killing terminators and hurting tanks more. MEQs are in cover a lot of the time and in transports most of the rest of the time, so you are usually just changing a 3+ for a 4+.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, some excellent points.. I agree totally. Stormtroopers are almost totally useless (I would be happy to see them arrayed against my SW: they cost MORE then my MEQs do and although my bolt pitols and flamer might not quite outshoot them they wouldnt even nearly survive a round of combat with me...

As for AP3- yes, most games I play against marines they will be in cover or a vehicle for most of the game. This is why my genestealers always have flesh hooks rather then feeder tendrils. With cover being so prominant in 5th edition its often more reliaby just to throw 2-3 times as many shots and rely on failed armour saves rather then hoping your target is in the open so your AP weapons work well...


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

Thats one of the reasons why 1kSons are pretty f... by 5th edition.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Most low AP anti infantry is doing worse in 5th edition due to the "ever present" 4+ cover save. 

A savvy opponent will use bushes, trees, rocks, transports and sacrificial units to screen the valuable units, getting at least a 4+ save vs your expensive/few shots per round/low AP weapon. Vs a non AP, high ROF weapon he may get a better save, but he has to take it many times.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Let us all not forget FRFSRF it makes lasguns, both hot-shot and regular lasguns into true weapons of war with that lovely third shot. So sad that it doesn't work with all rapid fire weapons *sigh* plasma volley gallore... forget about overheating.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

KageRyuuUji said:


> Let us all not forget FRFSRF it makes lasguns, both hot-shot and regular lasguns into true weapons of war with that lovely third shot. So sad that it doesn't work with all rapid fire weapons *sigh* plasma volley gallore... forget about overheating.


"Hot-Shot Lasguns" are _not_ "Lasguns". They cannot FRFSRF.


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## Pukka (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh man, I was gonna say FRFSRF with Hot Shot Lasguns would be quite damaging


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> "Hot-Shot Lasguns" are _not_ "Lasguns". They cannot FRFSRF.


Cite your sources please.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The argument against: lasgun is a clearly defined gun with a profile. Hot shot lasguns are an entirely seperate gun with a seperate profile. If they wanted it to work on guns other than lasguns, they would have said.

The argument for: they have the word "lasgun" in their name.

Like many things in the codex it requires clarification. This is not the rules forum though, and this is not a thread about storm troopers. If somebody has a definitive, official clarification from GW HQ (not some redshirt or roolz boyz) then go ahead and post it. Otherwise forget it.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

another reason is that the FRFSRF rule specifies the ranges i.e
2 shots at 12"
3 shots at 24"

not exact quote but does clearly state the ranges, and that would then alter the Hot Shot Lasgun from 18" max range to 24" max range.

And on the subject of it, if hot shot lasguns were allowed to FRFSRF then it would be stated as las-weapons in the orders rules, meaning lascannons would get 2 shots!


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Well luckily for everone there aren't any official updates on the Erreta yet, and I find it funny that they would change the name from Hellgun to Hot-shot Lasgun without a reason. But regardless, FRFSRF sure does help the boys hold the line.

Now, if they make an erreta for Hot-shot Lasguns, not one of you could deny that it would offer the best of both worlds. If the erreta is against, then so be it, didn't lose any sleep over it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Obviously it'd be great, having good AP and high RoF is the best of both worlds. Today I played two games, and saw both in action - a pile of Melta from my Fire Dragons (15) and from my opponent's Vulkan list. Obviously there was other shooting (ShuriCans etc) - but overall the Autocannons were probably his most useful weapon, RoF being key - but my Prisms low AP blasts (a separate case again) and Fusion Guns did the damage on him. It really proves nothing, except that Melta is an exception, always being a step above it's rivals against vehicles.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Yep, unless you have an Executioner Tank ^^ nothin gets more hate from SM players than a tripple does of plasma cannon in the mornin lol so what if it costs almost as much as a Land Raider ^^


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## Bobgenrut (Feb 5, 2008)

For me I run probabilities on the guns, see roughly how many unsaved wounds each will cause. Then figure how many turns I plan for the model to be alive and see which one does better over all.

But balance is definatly key, go to heavy on ap you lose shots and normaly points. Go to heavy on shots you will be stuck on terminator or equivlant units.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Sometimes you need to go super heavy on the shots- Nids and Crons spring to mind especially, neither have decent AP1-2 weapons with which to kill termies. If you're not going CC then you need to mob fire; trust me when I say that 60 shots from half decent weapons (fleshborers, devourers, gauss whatever etc) will normally shread temies quite nicely


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

They are however the exception, namely becaus they lack truely low ap weapons.


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## Jack Jack (Nov 16, 2008)

In my own experience, I have always been foild by saves against Meq (and almost never had faced teq) so I would tend to favor high AP. However, it is true that I've only played necron so far so I can't say I've had success with high AP because the only thing I have for that is the particle whip and the heavy gauss canon, both of which are extremely heavy weapons. I usually end up ripping nids appart in the shooting phase after they launched their assault ("smoosh" on my monolith) but I can't say I do the same to battle sisters or even seraphims.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

KageRyuuUji said:


> They are however the exception, namely becaus they lack truely low ap weapons.


Orks. 

*Limit Break*


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

darklove said:


> I think it depends on the BS of the shooting unit. If you have great BS then I would go for AP every time. If, on the other hand, your BS would make a one-armed mole with a nervous disorder look like a true sniper then you really need volume of fire and as many shots as possible.
> 
> BS4+ I would go with AP
> BS3- I would go with rate of fire


I second dark love but if I were to have to pick between the two rof would get it. The ridiculous number of cover saves out there mean that chances are you opponent will be getting a save whether it is a armour one or otherwise so might as well force a lot of cover saves then a few.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

There's always templates, the average "ROF" weapon (singular) will only threaten 2 models on average, while a single flamer on average will threaten between 3 or 4 models. Sure you might have more bolters or lasguns then flamers, at best a 9-1 ratio, if you even use them enmasse. However, on those rare circumstances when they are, you can almost always expect some results.

Let us not forget either, they are one part to the saves puzzle. Cover.

Cover, Save, Armor

Templates get rid of the first
low AP gets rid of the second
and high Str and melta(really) get rid of the third.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, template weapons rock- my blood claw units often have 1 flamer ans 14 bolt pistols.. they may only be BS3 but still the flamer normally does far more damage then the others combined (especially on 5+AS in cover )


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

I prefer the heavy flamer myself or inferno cannon, but yes, templates do indeed rock, but is it truely ROF? If it is, then perhaps what you want isn't weapons with a lot of shots, but rather, a lot of templates.


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## BeastsofWar (Apr 1, 2009)

i prefer ROF to AP. but AP for a guard player is moslt tied up in templates. 

BoW- John


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

As I see it, the issue is the number of hits you get, not how you get them. 6 bs 2 shots, 4 bs 3 or 3 bs 4 - all basically the same thing. There is some variance which is worth considering, but usually you have about the same bs through an army and you don't have much choice about it.

Likewise templates. They can generally be considered RoF weps, but depend on the target and the mobility of the shooter. The difference is that they are rubbish against single targets like MCs, which are very rarely worth flamering.


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## Capt. Knight (Jul 15, 2009)

The best sentinel arrangement, iss usaully to have a lascannon, and two or 1 autocannons, for rate of fire and powerful armour piercing abilities and anti-infantry prowess.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

KageRyuuUji said:


> There's always templates, the average "ROF" weapon (singular) will only threaten 2 models on average, while a single flamer on average will threaten between 3 or 4 models. Sure you might have more bolters or lasguns then flamers, at best a 9-1 ratio, if you even use them enmasse. However, on those rare circumstances when they are, you can almost always expect some results.
> 
> Let us not forget either, they are one part to the saves puzzle. Cover.
> 
> ...


And THIS is one of the reasons I like SoBs so much.
Basic troops can carry flamer + heavy flamer or 2 flamers, and have a 3+ armour save, as well as BS 4 on those bolters.

Dominions can get a staggering 4 flamers.

An extra 1 shot flamer can be given to the veterans in squads.

And Divine Guidance does the rest.  Welcome to AP1 Hell.


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## Fatality (Oct 8, 2008)

Regarding what Einar said, thats the only reason i considered that army really, i have an obsession with flamers.
Secondly i find that a controlled mix of Ap to deal with those terminators with the 3+ invul save *they are the only thing i fear as tau since some people can just roll 3+ svs like nodbodys business, and high rate of fire to deal with either low save values cover saves or to just force more saves on a marine player than he can possibly save other wise.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes but you still outsource for the Banewolf ^^ because all you know it, the IG are the Princes of the Template (Sorry but since no two armies are married together there can be no king or queen, sorry but them's the facts ) lol Now if only the chem cannon was ap 2, then even terminators would have reason to fear muahahahaha!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Regarding what Einar said, thats the only reason i considered that army really, i have an obsession with flamers.
> Secondly i find that a controlled mix of Ap to deal with those terminators with the 3+ invul save *they are the only thing i fear as tau since some people can just roll 3+ svs like nodbodys business, and high rate of fire to deal with either low save values cover saves or to just force more saves on a marine player than he can possibly save other wise.


ANother reason I like SoBs so much.. against armies like Marines and chaos marines, you can use numbers to your advantage, while against hordes, your flamers will work wonders.

I REALLY should get to work sometime on making that squad of 20 sisters with 3 storm bolters.. and see what people say to rapidfiring 40 bolters at something with divine guidance...


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

Thinking about the difference between AP and rate of fire. I guess it boils down to what you know will work. 

I would tend to focus my railguns and rending attacks at tanks and wraithlords (and such) becuase their likely to get a wound, unlike low str attack which have less meaning against strong units compared to weak units which tend to consist of the troops section.

Of course with 4+ cover everywhere I would say that high str few shots (autocannon etc) for the needed wound is becoming more important that Low AP one shot (plasma etc) to get rid of a save which is easily replaced. Even Invunrable saves are becoming more common.

Just an idea


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## Pako (May 28, 2009)

I was always a fan of high S low AP like Lascannons until i realized how good rending can be. MotRW with three MM tornado LS followed by a LR Crusader with a squad of CC termis inside with a chaplain is a good mix of high S mid AP weapons. The chaplain and termis are there to further demonstrate my love of shaking big handfuls of dice at an opponent. 

In total that's 3 assault cannons, 2 tl assault cannons, 4 MM, 6 tl bolters, and a tl h. bolter with a bunch of pissed off termis to boot. And the ability to reroll alot of the misses is always a plus even with a BS of 4. If you really feel like being a jerk you can always put a storm bolter on the LR for a couple extra cheap shots. :victory:


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Personally I prefer rate of fire. I usually only have low AP weapons for anti-tank only and thats just because they have a high strength and in some cases other rules like lance or melta. If you put enough shots on something it will fail some saves.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Welcome to the forum, Ghost792. Hope you have lots of fun here. That said, please bear in mind that this thread has been dead for 7 months, and in general people are opposed to threadomancy. Please check the dates of the most recent post on a thread before bringing one back from the dead.


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