# Dark Eldar - Recurring Motifs?



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I've been lurking in the Dark Eldar section for a while now and I found that the first symptoms of "typical" lists are beginning to appear. 

From the looks of it, the most popular is the Duke with his harem of Wyches, occasionally spiced up with Miss 40K, Lelith Hesperax. 

This is followed by a yet unrefined space pirates list that revolves around spamming Warriors and maybe Trueborn in Raiders, Ravagers and 2-3x5-6 Reaver Jetbikes with either some cheap HQ or again the Duke, maybe Malys, or even Vect; this version also uses Incubi as HQ-huggers every now and then. 

Somewhat similar to this is the Baron's army of bladelovers, with lots of Hellions, again 2-3x5-6 Reavers and the obligatory Ravagers.

The last one is a pure/mostly pure Haemonculus force with varying setups for HQs, but the massed amounts of cheap Wracks and not-so-cheap-but-kickass Grotesques (or even Turbogrots if Urien is around, which tends to be the case, but some argue that hes not as good as he looks), and again the Ravagers. I don't think I saw a Haemonculus list with Taloses. Or maybe I missed it.

Of course, these lists have varying levels of competitiveness but it will take a few months 'till the dust settles on the shiny bitz and everything is perceived for what it really is, and the players gain experience and pain tokens. However, I think it is promising that there are so many viable lists that make the opponents of the Dark Eldar work hard for victory - if it is at all possible. 

What do you think about all this? Do you agree with this list of recurring motifs?

ITT: Happy Dark Eldar players explain why they are happy.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think you missed David Bowie with his Carbine Rangers - I.E. Sliscus with a trueborn squad w/carbines and Cannon. And the Ravens are starting to get their due. Now few still use Scourges, and I think that's a mistake. they can be a shock to those who tink they suck from the last time, when they were a big useless point sink. 

Most dissed unit? Mandrakes, no one seems to give them any love.

Favorites? David Bowie, seems like. Lelith is less popular, but good. Lady Malys seems to be the least popular. Though making an entire squad psycher-proof may turn out to be a major ability, down the road. 

Why am I happy? Cause the new models kick ass, there are more than one "standard build", and we get big, hulky elf-things to smash arraogant Mon-Keigh with!


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I like the idea of using Mandrakes as SM Scout equivalents, but they suffer from having to actually kill something in order to... kill something... which isn't the best use of a disposable unit. They also can't hit tanks with grenades, or threaten anything other than a combat squad. I think they potentially have a place as an answer to SW Missile spam, they tie up the Long Fangs from turn 1 with Fleet, MtC and Infiltrate.

I'm not even sure we can pin down archetypes yet. I've seen a lot of lists with the Duke/Baron/Vect, but then I've also seen a lot of lists that use no special characters at all.

I can pin down units people are not very keen on though, they appear to be Mandrakes, Grotesques, Scourge, Harlequins and Razorwing fighters. Also the bloodbrides seem to be less popular than anticipated, not sure why.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Bloodbrides are less popular, I believe, cause they aren't tough enough to warrant the cost increase over normal wyches. They get more wych weapons, but it's hard enough to afford all those wyches can buy. Trueborn get a fantastic set of loadout options, and are in general the elite choice that replaces bloodbrides in most choices. The Razorwing is supaantipersonnel, but it also a hideously weak eggshell. And, of course, no model.


----------



## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm just happy there are gonna be Dark Eldar armies at tournaments now. My chainaxes have been cleaving Eldar heads for years but I've yet to kill a single Dark Eldar. I can't wait to see some awesomely painted Dark Eldar armies with those new models and test my mettle against something that doesn't revolve around terminator deathstar units and more Russ tanks than I can count. 

GW finally did something I really like. Breathing life back into a classic army.


----------



## Immelman (Nov 18, 2010)

I find lists right now a bit unbalanced people relying on the same unit for the major make up of their army counting on them to perform all tasks. All warrior armies, all wych armies, all Hellion armies...

Personally I do not see the advantage of such lists but I guess it depends on your style of play. I would like to see more variety in lists, but I guess that will come with time.

The most undervalued unit I find is the Cronos or as I like to call it the token dispenser. It is my favorite unit even though I can't seem to be able to include it in my army list which is build around a very mobile force mounted on raiders.

What really makes my day in this new codex is the power from pain ability :biggrin:


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

People are just going through the phase of deciphering what they want to be 'good' and what actually is 'good'.

The Duke is featuring in alot of lists atm due to his ability to bring the poison roll down to a 3+ instead of a 4+. This is probably the weakest of his abilities, and very few people are taking him for the fact you can DEEPSTRIKE YOUR ENTIRE ARMY with him in charge.

Lelith will start crawling into some Wych lists, her potential danger is going to win out over the more staunch Archons.

As soon as people realise that Vect can and will kill pretty much anything in CC with ease, he will be the new Vulkan. He may not have EW, but when you have a 2+ inv save, it's not as much of a problem. WS8, I8 and 5 pwer weapon attacks that always wound on a 3 kinda enhance this.

It didn't take lng for people to work out what were the crap units though. Scourges and the Succubus.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Orochi said:


> People are just going through the phase of deciphering what they want to be 'good' and what actually is 'good'.


So true. Sadly, some won't ever emerge from this stage. 



> The Duke is featuring in alot of lists atm due to his ability to bring the poison roll down to a 3+ instead of a 4+. This is probably the weakest of his abilities, and very few people are taking him for the fact you can DEEPSTRIKE YOUR ENTIRE ARMY with him in charge.


Yeah, the Duke is something else. I think his best ability is his Contraband rule (but only in an army that uses a lot of Combat Drugs). The ability to get two chances at a good Combat Drug ability is _awesome._ He's also no slouch in combat, even if he is forced to join one of the army's Warriors or Trueborn at the start of the game (assuming the army contains one of either of these units). The Serpent's Venom is a nice rule but encourages taking a less than efficient unit in the form of Kabalite Trueborn packing a ton of poisoned weaponry.



> Lelith will start crawling into some Wych lists, her potential danger is going to win out over the more staunch Archons.


Perhaps. I'm thinking that more fluff-based Wych Cult lists will include Lelith while ones with a more competitive focus will give her a miss for Haemonculi and/or Archons. The former should be fairly obvious (Pain Tokens. Units with no armor worth mentioning), though the latter less so. Basically, I think that because an Archon can be equipped to be so deadly and good at more than just chopping things up in combat we'll see one of these guys in Wych Cult lists to help the army out with busting open vehicles and dueling with enemy characters.



> As soon as people realise that Vect can and will kill pretty much anything in CC with ease, he will be the new Vulkan. He may not have EW, but when you have a 2+ inv save, it's not as much of a problem. WS8, I8 and 5 pwer weapon attacks that always wound on a 3 kinda enhance this.


Vect is good, but I think he may be a bit on the expensive side, at least so far as that not everyone will want to take him.



> It didn't take lng for people to work out what were the crap units though. Scourges and the Succubus.


Succubus yes, Scourges not so much. Scourges are a bit more of a niche unit than Reavers, but they do have a place. Unfortunately their methods of delivery are rather few and far between - it's pretty much either a rather unreliable _Deep Strike_ or popping out a Webway Portal. The latter is the best option in my opinion as it's a nearly foolproof means of getting the Scourges into Heat Lance range with little to no risk to the Scourges themselves.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If the Duke had Scourge wings, then yes, I'd say that a bumper unit of Scourges would be ideal.
However, in comparison to a unit of Trueborn geared to dealing with Infantry, they are nowhere near as efficient.
As for tank hunting, Reavers with heat lances and/or blasters are better.

Although however, they are gonna be rather interesting when I want something to go aspect warrior hunting.

Yes I agree about vect, he is rather expensive. But if you tool up an Archon, you can reach 180-200 points. If you're willing to spend this much, you may aswell pay the extra points and get all of Vects regeneration grenades and rather extreme rules.
This guy, giving an entire unit of Incubi prefered enemy isnt a laughing matter, although will not be seen apart from as a deathstar or in apoc.

The Duke is a real bargain for what he does. The Contraband rule is very good (although, to be fair, I always 'overlook' it, as I field very little, if any, wyches, ever). I reckon people will find a away to use him, even if its only for one of his 3 rules. But if you want killy, an Archon w/Husk/trap/field/drugs is far better.

I'm beginning to see Archons as the 3.5Ed Chaos lords: one man armies. Can be geared to do anything and even everything should you take the points and put them into him. The Husk/Trap/Field/Drug/Blaster/Djin Archon, although a cost bomb. Can shoot, fight and be shot and hit back with relative safety. One man band anyone?


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Why have a husk and a djinn when you can only use one? Waste of points.

And I think Deep Striking is the Duke's worst ability, and part of the reason why I am edging away from taking him.


----------



## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Why have a husk and a djinn when you can only use one? Waste of points.
> 
> And I think Deep Striking is the Duke's worst ability, and part of the reason why I am edging away from taking him.


I am pretty sure that the Archon can use both of those in each CC phase. One is a CC weapon, and the other is just a piece of wargear that tacks on a couple PW attacks.

But I am starting to agree with you about the Deep Striking probably not being the way to go with Dark Eldar.

The way it looks, this is going to be a very hard army to win with against any army that knows what it can do. It can't hope for saves, it has terrible armor saves, mediocre shooting, great CC but low in Strength. Reavers seem to be doing a fantastic job, but only if they have the first turn (otherwise, they will be shot dead turn 1)


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

They are both power weapons, and both have different special rules, which means you cannot use both in one round of combat.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Nightshields help a lot for that t1 survival. As long as you're willing to start out of range with lances and have some sensible amount of cover then you should be able to not fall apart as soon as the game starts.

And hey, if you can't manage to do that, you *can* spend the points to go first 5/6 (ish) of the time, although then your power from pain capabilities will be greatly nerfed.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Sethis said:


> They are both power weapons, and both have different special rules, which means you cannot use both in one round of combat.


The way I read it, Djinn Blade's special rule doesn't require it to be used. It merely says that the 'Bearer' my make two additional attacks. 

All other weapons refer to the wielder or user (save for the demiklaives when "wielded separately, they give the bearer +2 Attacks' to save confusion on being able to use two special weapons simultaneously), which is a distinction to me. Of course, GW are inconsistent, but still, given the nature of the rule, that's my reading of it.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Creon said:


> Bloodbrides are less popular, I believe, cause they aren't tough enough to warrant the cost increase over normal wyches. They get more wych weapons, but it's hard enough to afford all those wyches can buy. Trueborn get a fantastic set of loadout options, and are in general the elite choice that replaces bloodbrides in most choices. The Razorwing is supaantipersonnel, but it also a hideously weak eggshell. And, of course, no model.


One would think that Wyches, or at the least Hekatrixes, would have a WS of 5. I'd even accept a BS of 3 in trade; after all, they're supposed to be awesome in close combat.


----------



## beakerpsych (Nov 12, 2010)

> The way it looks, this is going to be a very hard army to win with against any army that knows what it can do. It can't hope for saves, it has terrible armor saves, mediocre shooting, great CC but low in Strength. Reavers seem to be doing a fantastic job, but only if they have the first turn (otherwise, they will be shot dead turn 1)
> 
> Power Weapon (p42 40k 5th)


I don't agree with you on that one. (No surpirse.)
fnp makes for actually ok saves 
(5+ followed by 4+ fnp on warriors, for instance.
or for wyches 4+ in cc followed by 4+ fnp.
or for incubi 4+ followed by 4+ fnp
or archon with inv 2+
or grotesq with 5 T, 3 W and fnp (our very own plague bearers!)

Mediocre shooting of mostly 3+ to hit and wound of 4+
or DL spam, or Blasters, etc.. etc...

Also not at all easy to pin down what the army will do, at least not yet.
Lots of viable armies I think.

Gee bud, why so negative?


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

beakerpsych said:


> I don't agree with you on that one. (No surpirse.)
> fnp makes for actually ok saves
> (5+ followed by 4+ fnp on warriors, for instance.
> or for wyches 4+ in cc followed by 4+ fnp.
> ...


I fixed your message


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> The way I read it, Djinn Blade's special rule doesn't require it to be used. It merely says that the 'Bearer' my make two additional attacks.


Have you read the monumentally lolworthy thread in the Fantasy section about needing to "use" a magic item in order to gain the benefits? The argument appeared to be "The enchanted shield gives me +1 to my save even when I'm not using the shield".

You must be using a special weapon in order to get the benefits of said weapon. If they simply intended to tack on +2 attacks, they would have just said "The owner may make two special extra attacks per round of combat, in addition to his normal attacks. These count as power weapon attacks, and..."

The Djinn blade is a power weapon. Therefore it is a weapon. Therefore you need to use the weapon to gain the benefits stated.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

i have to agree with Sethis on the Djinn blade statistics.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I disagree. The Djin blade is a wargear Item, not a weapon. Thus does not take up a hand to use.
It simply grants a bonus +2 attacks at his basic strength with it's double to hit, hits yourself rule. He may make the rest of his attacks, be it with a pencil or a souped up, str10 huskblade.

A FAQ will sort this out. But if you need an answer now, ring GW and see what they say.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

It's not listed in the "weapon" section of the army list. Point. But:

In the wargear section of the book it specifically says that it is a power weapon. 

Further, it is in the "Weapons" sub-section of the wargear pages.

That makes me far more inclined to believe that the army list entry is a typo.


----------



## beakerpsych (Nov 12, 2010)

*Lady Malys*

I feel that the Lady is undervalued, especially for really small armies. At that point cost, with her special rules, with some incubi and perhaps a haemonculous, se is a steal.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Orochi you know that ringing up GW NEVER gets a straight answer.

Djinn blade is a *POWER WEAPON* it grants 2 bonus attacks that must be rolled separately, if you roll doubles on this, the blade rebels against the attacker - the 2 attacks automatically hit the bearer.

Yes, Orochi. the Djinn blade is wargear, so is an Agonizer, so is a Splinter Pistol, so are POWER WEAPONS. 

the thing that the rule book is basically stating is this: you do NOT replace your CCW/pistol in order to take a Djinn blade. it is mearly taken. it is STILL a weapon, it still has to be used in order to get its full effect.

Another example: Liquifier gun / hex rifle on Haemonculi. are you going to try and claim you can use both AND the pistol because the first 2 are "arcane wargear" and dont replace your pistol?

to sum it up. Djinn blade needs to be used in order to gain the 2 attacks, because it IS a weapon. it is just not replacing a weapon in order to be taken. IE: you CAN have a djinn blade, an agonizer and a Splinter pistol on an archon. Does not mean in any way shape or form that the Djinn blade gives 2 attacks to the agonizer. just means you can carry the Djinn blade along with an agonizer and splinter pistol.

To be honest Orochi, you seem to be all over the place. You claim to follow the rules in one way with Power from pain, but you follow the rules completely different for the Djinn blade?


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm not sold on the lady tbh unless you know that you're facing Eldrad. You pay 20pts over an Archon with a Djinn Blade and Shadowfield in order to gain redeployment but sacrifice a 2++ for a 4++

I'm not convinced that it's worth it. I'd rather take Baron and be more sure of going first instead - he also gives rather more certain buffs to the unit he joins.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Orochi you know that ringing up GW NEVER gets a straight answer.
> I guess sarcasm isn't to clear via text, so I'll forgive you for this.
> 
> Djinn blade is a *POWER WEAPON* it grants 2 bonus attacks that must be rolled separately, if you roll doubles on this, the blade rebels against the attacker - the 2 attacks automatically hit the bearer.
> ...


To be honest KA, you're wasting my time while I write this. If you are godsgift to rule interpretation, get a job with GW.

You're taking my interpretation too seriously. Please, troll elsewhere. Until GW clear this up, people are allowed to make there OWN interpretations on such matters. My club (some 50 odd members) have no problem with this.

And anyway, who the hell takes the Djin blade? 

Argh, kids shouldn't be allowed the internet!


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Orochi. Your a moron.

from the Codex itsself:

OPTIONS:
Replace Close combat weapon and/or splinter pistol with:
Venom Blade
Blast Pistol
Power weapon
Blaster
Agonizer
Electrocorrosive Whip
Huskblade
Take any of the following:
Haywire grenades
Ghostplate armor
Combat Drugs
Soul-trap
Djin Blade
Clone Field*
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Shadow Field
Webway portal

Notice how NO WHERE does it say weapon options?

Also if you mean where they explain all the weapons, Djin blade is CLEARLY in the WEAPONS section. case and point, you yourself are an arrogent troll trying to turn the blame off your own trolling to justify your opinion which has no basis. if your 'opinion' had a basis, it would be different. but your opinion just does not.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I have an idea.

Let's all call each other trolls and stubbornly insist that our interpretation of a rule is correct when clearly someone else has an equally strong, opposing opinion. Additionally, let's be sure to litter a non-rules oriented thread with our argument.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> I have an idea.
> 
> Let's all call each other trolls and stubbornly insist that our interpretation of a rule is correct when clearly someone else has an equally strong, opposing opinion. Additionally, let's be sure to litter a non-rules oriented thread with our argument.


cant be helped. hes spreading false information like a heratic. he must burn!


----------



## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

The Dark Eldar codex is superb. We have the fastest units in the game and in multiple force organization slots. Almost all of our units can take anti·personnel and anti-vehicle weaponry. Our vehicles are fragile but the bulk of our army can get feel no pain and use those fragile vehicles with invulnerable saves for cover to mitigate the enemies firepower.


Some of our underused units include

Haemonculi - Amazing HQ choice. You can purchase up to 3 per available HQ slot, give Feel No Pain, grants access to amazing Wargear. Worried about an IC take Mindphase Gauntlets, and a Shatter Shard. If the Shatter Shard doesn't outright kill then the Mindphase Gauntlet will stupify. Worried about hordes, run Scissors Hand, Liquifier Gun, and or Dark Gate. MEQ/Elite units are in your meta? Agoniser/Power Weapon an Orb of Despair close to some Torment Grenade Launchers. The combinations and support go on.

Grotesques - The are tough and will almost always have a Haemonculus with them meaning tons of St6/7 attacks on the charge. Good bye tanks! You think Rampage is a hindrence? When there's only a Grotesque or 2 left risk it and laugh when your opponents army suddenly gets nailed by more strength 5 hits then they could muster by themselves.

Wracks - As troops Wracks are an easy choice to make over Wyches because they're reliable! They always have FNP, Liquifier Guns are superior to Wych Weapos. The Poison Weapons always wound on 4+ and with Furious charge will re-reroll failed wounds against most units. Even the Acothyst has more wargear options then a hekatrix.


Beastmasters - Much like our Grotesques this is one of the few units that can punish vehicles in close combat without any gimmicks. 210 points worth of beast masters and razorwings nets you 55 total wounds, 10 ranged poison attacks, 70 close combat attacks 60 of which are rending!!! Not quite Orks, but they're I5 and have the beasts special rule. Worried about instant death/lack of cover then swap in a Clawed Fiend, and some Khymerae or deploy through a web way portal.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I actually love the new Bloodbrides in the elite slot +1A and +1LD to the normal wychg yes thanks.

They did take out the old wych weapons but it was no real big deal unless you rolled +1WS on the drugs which back them you wanted the 12" assault anyway or re-roll misses in CC.

The old wyches were 120pts for a 10 man squad and then you had to pay 1pt for grenades and wych weapons on top of this making them more expensive than the new ones where as the new ones just included the plasma grenades cost into them but also gained the bonuses said above.

The whole people spamming kabal warriors and trueborn I think will die down in a while when people realise that getting all your raiders shot down in battle and not having anything CC based to defend when the enemy reaches you with it's CC based units is no fun at all.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Orochi. You're a moron.
> 
> from the Codex Itself:
> 
> ...


Just the way I see it. 
You don't have to agree, I'd rather you didn't infact.
Keep barking Kiddo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic, I'm surprised Drazhar's buff hasn't inspired more people to take him. I do wonder if this has something to do with the lack of a new model (as of yet).


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Orochi said:


> Back on topic, I'm surprised Drazhar's buff hasn't inspired more people to take him. I do wonder if this has something to do with the lack of a new model (as of yet).


It's probably a lot to do with him being hideously expensive yet not adding anything to the army other than a rock hard combat monster which can be taken in several other places in the army, oftentimes for less points.


----------



## beakerpsych (Nov 12, 2010)

> I'm not sold on the lady tbh unless you know that you're facing Eldrad. You pay 20pts over an Archon with a Djinn Blade and Shadowfield in order to gain redeployment but sacrifice a 2++ for a 4++


The invulnerability to psych and redeployment rule is worth the 20 points imo. And it's a 2++ with a 16% chance of critical failure (i think my bad karma may give me a different perspective on this than yours though. )


----------



## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Drazhar being the cost of Asurmen and still not much better doesn't help. 200 maybe


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I think he (drazhar) has his place, the problem I see is his point costs in comparrison to what size games most people play as a bit much I mean in a 2000-2500pt game he'd be fine though anything smaller and he starts to take away from the army

I mean Drazhar is 240pts

for 247pts you could get the following

9 Bloodbrides
Syren
Agoniser
3 Hydra Gauntlets
Raider

In CC the wyches have invul savesso power weapons don't matter where as Drazhar has to pick his units carefully


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Drazhar isnt worth his points. hes a great SC, but he just costs too much for what he does. in a FoC game, you have Vect, Baron, a normal Archon, Lilith, the Duke, and haemonculi groupings, that, are more useful then Drazhar. Drazhar might see action in apoc, Its doubtful that he will see action anywhere else.

also for the record: Orochi, I do hope if your LGS is a GW they dont let you play like that, because your useing a personal opinion to try and sidestep a rule. IE: if an item isnt in the replacing weapons in hand, then it must be wargear that can add its effects to my already used weapons?


----------



## Sandbar (Feb 5, 2010)

There really is no squad that is unusable in the codex and everything seems to at least be reasonably priced. Drazhar is expensive but what you get is an IC with the ability that all other IC's wish they had. Being able to choose which model gets to engage him in cc is very powerful indeed. Simply move him out of base with any power weapons and he will shine.

That being said, so far the Duke has proved himself to be well worth his points. It really depends on what kind of army you would like to play, but with the available models Duke gives you an army wide boost that cannot be replicated. 3+ poison for warriors makes them the deadliest squad you can field to infantry. reroll drugs makes your wyches and archon have 1/3 chance to start with pain token. Deepstrike trueborn with blasters lets you disembark and fire at rear armor.

It all works together very well which is why we are seeing a lot of Duke armies. For most armies certain lists are clearly superior, but with all of the dirty tricks dark eldar can pull the army list is merely a tool to use, but will rely on outsmarting an opponent, rather than pure list strength.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Drazhar isnt worth his points. hes a great SC, but he just costs too much for what he does. in a FoC game, you have Vect, Baron, a normal Archon, Lilith, the Duke, and haemonculi groupings, that, are more useful then Drazhar. Drazhar might see action in apoc, Its doubtful that he will see action anywhere else.
> 
> also for the record: Orochi, I do hope if your LGS is a GW they dont let you play like that, because your useing a personal opinion to try and sidestep a rule. IE: if an item isnt in the replacing weapons in hand, then it must be wargear that can add its effects to my already used weapons?


About Drazhar: That's your opinion. 
Performed quite well at the tournament yesterday.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> About Drazhar: That's your opinion.
> Performed quite well at the tournament yesterday.


never said Drazhar couldnt hold his own. hes an awsome unit. But in all seriousness for his points, you have plenty of HQ you can take that are better.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Vrykolas2k said:


> About Drazhar: That's your opinion.
> Performed quite well at the tournament yesterday.


So he performed well in what, five games? That's hardly proof that he's an effective unit. In three months time ask people what they think of him and I'm quite confident he won't be too popular. It's not that he's not cool, he's just brutally expensive.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

So is Abbaddon and Typhus, yet they see almost as much action as Kharn... and sadly with better results.

Mephiston springs to mind as well. He just eats squads and yet cant join units and has no Inv. But he just eats squads.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the way Isee it, Drazhar may or may not see plenty of action, but effectiveness wise, the question comes down to is he really worth the points you pay for him. 

his abilities are cool, ill give him that.

his on an armor save of 6 make a base str attack back on the unit. not bad. of coarse thats assuming he takes an armor save. so going after any unit that has, say, power weapons, like terminators, that ability is void. thus in that situation, hes just not as good as other setups, ontop of the fact hes so many points.

he has less WS and I then an archon, 1 more W and T and 1 more attack OR one less attack and 2 more str. the attacks of coarse are before any bonus attacks gained.

yes, if you put him with a unit, you could potentially remove 60 points off his cost as he would basically replace the klaivex, Given you gave the klaivex the same options that Drazhar brings. still making him 50 points more then an archon with Agonizer, CD, and SF, and of coarse no bloodstone on the Klaivex.

Point is: Drazhar is a beast, and he will easily do well. but because of how massive his points are, and the kind of squad you would probably want to put him in, hes just not worth his points.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

From what I've seen from him, Drazhar is good for assassination and slaughtering anything with an invulnerable save no better than 5+. Positioning is key in his case. If you can put him B2B with a hostile IC and everyone else is out of B2B you're golden because there are precious few who can stand up to Drazhar in a duel, mainly because he'll be hitting first most of the time and Eternal Warrior makes sure he gets to land his attacks. Then keep being in B2B with only one model at a time, so that he won't get too many hits. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that hes just like almost every other HQ in the Codex: you must never ever put him in a fluffy unit (the only exclusions from this are the Baron and the Duke). Give him 9 Hekatrixes and they'll do just fine. Especially if you give the Hekatrixes three Shardnets and Impalers; with some clever positioning, you can reduce an otherwise deadly unit like Berzerkers to Tac Marines.

In order to keep the topic fresh and your brains fed with thought, what do you think of an army built around Grotesques? For instance, you could take 30 Grotesques and use 3 cheap Haemos to drop WWPs in turn one. Said cheap Haemos run with nine Wracks with no upgrades in a Raider. Thats 1785 points so far, so theres 215 points left to gear up the Grotesques and maybe the Wracks with Aberrations/Acothysts with Scissorhands (easily the best thing you can give these guys). Or maybe three Haemos with Flesh Gauntlets you attatch to the Grotesques.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I daren't post my opinions or interpretations again because apparentally I'm always wrong and shouldn't be allowed to play.

I can tell you though, I do plan to give Drazhar a whirl. And I heard a squeeky bit of info that he will be re-released, new model, later on..

Now to continue my neutral, opinionless postage.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> So he performed well in what, five games? That's hardly proof that he's an effective unit. In three months time ask people what they think of him and I'm quite confident he won't be too popular. It's not that he's not cool, he's just brutally expensive.


All of which, again, comes down to peoples' personal opinions.
He costs a lot of points, yes, but I pretty much consider him to be worth it.
I put him in a full squad of Incubi + Klaivex with Bloodstone, and they merrily hacked their way through everything they went against.
Were many left at the end of the games?
No.
BUT, they did their job of killing things.
Leaving the rest of my army to claim objectives, kill things, and blow crap up.
Personally, I don't go for popularity-contest winners when it comes to units that I pick; I go for what I like and can use effectively in my own lists.
I think a lot of people on the boards and in the hobby in general lose sight of things like that.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> All of which, again, comes down to peoples' personal opinions.
> He costs a lot of points, yes, but I pretty much consider him to be worth it.
> I put him in a full squad of Incubi + Klaivex with Bloodstone, and they merrily hacked their way through everything they went against.
> Were many left at the end of the games?
> ...


your opinion, since it doesnt break any rules of the game, is respected. though I can think of multiple ways to remove an incubi threat quite easily. and you will be putting him in a full incubi squad with a Klaivex with bloodstone. so 228 for the squad, 230 for Drazhar. 60 for the raider. in a 1500 game you just spent 518 points on a single squad that, if countered correctly, can die extremely speedily. You dont have any grenades in that squad, so if your enemies hide even one model of each unit in area terrain, they will always strike at I 1, meaning EVERYTHING will strike before them. Or if you turbo boost your raider across the field and they properly surround you then blow the raider up, they can eliminate the squad from the inability of space


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> your opinion, since it doesnt break any rules of the game, is respected. though I can think of multiple ways to remove an incubi threat quite easily. and you will be putting him in a full incubi squad with a Klaivex with bloodstone. so 228 for the squad, 230 for Drazhar. 60 for the raider. in a 1500 game you just spent 518 points on a single squad that, if countered correctly, can die extremely speedily. You dont have any grenades in that squad, so if your enemies hide even one model of each unit in area terrain, they will always strike at I 1, meaning EVERYTHING will strike before them. Or if you turbo boost your raider across the field and they properly surround you then blow the raider up, they can eliminate the squad from the inability of space


While I agree with the bulk of your post I just need to mention (2) things.

first, as long as your CHARGING models can move the full 6" and ONE of your models can touch ONE of your opponents without entering terrain (i.e. 9/10 of your models are 7" away & 1 model is 6" away from their 1 model who is out of terrain) you are not required to take a terrain test but in fact pull his models out of terrain towards you

second, he doesn't have to surround your raider. In the new BRB FAQ if you move flat out or faster & your raider suffers an immobilized, wrecked or explodes ALL passengers are killed.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

clever handle said:


> While I agree with the bulk of your post I just need to mention (2) things.
> 
> first, as long as your CHARGING models can move the full 6" and ONE of your models can touch ONE of your opponents without entering terrain (i.e. 9/10 of your models are 7" away & 1 model is 6" away from their 1 model who is out of terrain) you are not required to take a terrain test but in fact pull his models out of terrain towards you
> 
> second, he doesn't have to surround your raider. In the new BRB FAQ if you move flat out or faster & your raider suffers an immobilized, wrecked or explodes ALL passengers are killed.


ok to your first thing: you still count as charging a unit in area terrain even if you never touch the area terrain yourself, aslong as when you charge they count as being in area terrain. and you only need one unit in area terrain, in order for the whole unit to count as being in area terrain. its stupid, but its how the rules are written.

second: it only counts to PLAYER turn. so they could still disembark on their opponents turn if called to, but couldnt if they got destroyed on their own turn. its been discussed before, in this thread, has it not? I was referencing the surround more for design philosophy of if they were not destroyed. IE he used Aether sails to move an extra 12 inches but only moved 12 normally, so he didnt count as going flat out. he still could not disembark on his turn, but could for sure on the opponents turn, so surrounding the vehicle would effectively destroy his unit


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

clever handle said:


> second, he doesn't have to surround your raider. In the new BRB FAQ if you move flat out or faster & your raider suffers an immobilized, wrecked or explodes ALL passengers are killed.


Gah, no. This only happens in the same player turn that the fast vehicle moves Flat Out. There's been a discussion of this in at least two threads now.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

I have to Concede I was wrong about the assaulting through cover, I went to read it in my 5th ed book and people have been playing it wrong at my store, I need to give them a good ass kicking for it. Though my second point I stated still stands.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> your opinion, since it doesnt break any rules of the game, is respected. though I can think of multiple ways to remove an incubi threat quite easily. and you will be putting him in a full incubi squad with a Klaivex with bloodstone. so 228 for the squad, 230 for Drazhar. 60 for the raider. in a 1500 game you just spent 518 points on a single squad that, if countered correctly, can die extremely speedily. You dont have any grenades in that squad, so if your enemies hide even one model of each unit in area terrain, they will always strike at I 1, meaning EVERYTHING will strike before them. Or if you turbo boost your raider across the field and they properly surround you then blow the raider up, they can eliminate the squad from the inability of space


That's funny.
The squad numbered 11 models, no Raider.
They just ran cover to cover.
I don't generally play 1500 games.
The tournament was 2000.
I always assaulted the models that were out of terrain, forcing the units to come out of it. Even without that, their weapons skill and armour saves likely would have allowed strike-backs.
Sorry you don't agree/ didn't see the matches, I know only what I've personally experienced, not theories.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> That's funny.
> The squad numbered 11 models, no Raider.
> They just ran cover to cover.
> I don't generally play 1500 games.
> ...


well even then, its a 480 point squad, almost 1/4th of your army still. and even running cover to cover, Im assuming you probably had more threatening targets to the enemy? else your opponents obvously ignored taking out 1/4th of your army. 

Also let it be said we did say Drazhars points are less of an urgency in 2k plus games.

and you ran from cover to cover, IE whoever setup the board put area 7 inches from each other inbetween you and the enemy and the opponent setup a juicy target within 13 inches of area terrain every time?

The point im making, once again: he is a great unit, he will rape face on any unit he gets into close combat with. But his points, compared to Archons, compared to Haemonculi, compared to the Duke, or baron, or lilith. seems to me, like him pulling his weight compared to those choices, is hard.

no one here is questioning if hes awsome or not. but once people wise up to Dark Eldar in 5th, what takes priority to shoot. Drazhar will be a high target easily.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

You're not allowed an opinion in this thread Vrykolas2k. And don't even try to argue your point of view.

Only one person's opinion is allowed in this thread.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vrykolas is allowed his opinions, I have no ill will to him or want to change his opinion on the matter. I mearly have been explaining the reasons in which I think Drazhar, though awsome, is probably not worth the points he costs, despite him being insanely awsome.

Mind you: Vrykrolas' opinion in this case, follows the rules, your earlier 'opinion' Orochi, did, and does, not follow the rules of the game, and in any gaming store that cared to follow the correct rules while you played there, if you pulled that particular opinion of yours out of your ass, they would laugh, and deny it to you. if your playing it as house rules, thats different, but you were trying to claim that your opinion was legit to the rules, which it was not


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

It's a hypothetical situation that would never arise.
The Djin blade is a piece of wargear that offers very little for it's cost. I would, personally, never take it. So it's an arguement/discussion that would never rear.
Of course, on a board such as this, we can subjugate the point. However, when one side (myself) has very little interest on the outcome of the item in discussion (for whatever reason, in this case, because it's a wargear item I have no interest in), and when the other side (in this case, yourself) seems to have some delusional view that it is in your interest to correct every slightest abject to the rules, the two just are not productive.

In the case of Drazhar, Vry has stated that it works and is productive for him, yet, in some strange and actually considerably creepy fashion, you find the need to agree and disagree with him. Telling him that 'although drazhar is awesome' (paraphrased of course) 'he is not worth the points paid'. This seems to be some ongoing battle you have with several, if not all, members of the forum. You feel the need to try to sooth their opinions, yet, in the same post, completely undermine them.

It's not a case of appeasement, it's a case of horrendous people skills. I am nothing more than a voice on an internet board. Just the same as everyone else. Perhaps, you should stop trying to instegate network angst, and just settle for the fact that sometimes, people are wrong and sometimes (although in your eyes, god forbid it) have an alternative point of view to yours.

If you cannot, and will not, bring this flaw in your personality under control, then I strongly suggest you leave this forum. 
However, if you stop acting like some obssessive perfectionist, then I'm sure people will be a little more accepting of your 'Rule Nazi' ways. Myself included.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

@ Orochi - Stands and Applauds, I would give you more +rep but I can't as it needs to be spread more


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yes, I am obsessive perfectionist for correcting a flaw in how your perceiving something within the codex incorrectly. since though, the Djin blade holds little to no value because of its setbacks, other items could easily be brought to the fore.

In example. going by the thought process you have shown us in this thread even. we could perceive that you may find it acceptable to fire the hex rifle, the liquifier gun, AND the splinter rifle. Since "the Liquifier gun and the hex rifle are not replacing your weapons, so they are not weaponry, but wargear to add to what I already can use" this is the arguement, no matter how uninterested you were, tried to use. 

YOU can not seem to understand simple debates of thought process, and deflect with speeches of not caring in an attempt to make your original idea not seem so wrong. But fear not, thats just what we humans do, we deflect to try and make ourselves look better then we really are.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I am more than happy to accept that I am Wrong. If I am, I apologise.

What I do not like, neither do many other people on this forum, is obssessive compulsists like you, rule nazis, shoving your self branded justice down the throats of those that are wrong.

Moderating forums is for Mods, your vigilante style rule hammering is tiresome, unsocialble, demeaning and worst of all, Hollow.

As I have stated, this is an internet board, I can just glance over your feudal style posts and completely ignore you, yet I choose not to because I think you are in some dire need of people skill acquisition. I'm telling you, before anyone else does, that although we all appreciate those who know the rules very well, we do not appreciate those who feel it is within their power (elected or not) to police the rest of the forum to the point of apathy from it's users.

Honestly KA, chill out. You're behaving like a complete child. For all our sakes, just relax and enjoy this forum for what it is; an online meeting place for those who enjoy the same hobby.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yes, I am the child who keeps deflecting when wrong. as far as I see in this thread:

you give a, whoever uninterested, build.

you are told you are wrong

you argue that rule

you are given proof you are wrong

you continue to argue that its your opinion of the rule, never once admiting your wrong or backing up any debate on the matter other then a deflected post on how its your opinion.

and now your calling me a rule nazi whos forcing my own opinions down others throats despite it truly being just a deflection away from the issues at hand, turning the subject around from one aspect to another.


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Now you're just being rude.



Orochi said:


> I am more than happy to accept that I am Wrong. If I am, I apologise.


Please read posts before you argue.

This discussion with you isn't going anywhere. Luckily for me, I have work now. So I can sidestep this childish behaviour of yours.

I really, honestly, think you need to re-think how you're going to present yourself on this forum.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Orochi said:


> I daren't post my opinions or interpretations again because apparentally I'm always wrong and shouldn't be allowed to play.
> 
> I can tell you though, I do plan to give Drazhar a whirl. And I heard a squeeky bit of info that he will be re-released, new model, later on..
> 
> Now to continue my neutral, opinionless postage.


Actually, I enjoy listening to your opinions. Of course, I often disagree politely, but you have well thought out arguments, most times.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Now you're just being rude.





Orochi said:


> What I do not like, neither do many other people on this forum, is obssessive compulsists like you, rule nazis, shoving your self branded justice down the throats of those that are wrong.
> 
> Moderating forums is for Mods, your vigilante style rule hammering is tiresome, unsocialble, demeaning and worst of all, Hollow.


Pot? Kettle? Black?

KA: If someone disagrees with you, spend a couple of posts arguing your point, then leave it alone. You're not going to change anyone's mind by yelling at them for page after page of threads. Especially if you do it in a thread that was never intended to be used for the purpose. It's inconsiderate to the OP and makes it harder to read for everyone else.

Orochi: It's not your place to speak for the entire community and tell someone to effectively GTFO. That's a moderators call, as you've already said. Your place is to state your opinion, present ideas and try to be a helpful and friendly member of the community. If someone is offensive or breaks forum rules, you hit the "Report" button above their post and let the admin sort it out. Assuming that somehow the entire community shares your view of KA is the height of arrogance, as is your demand that he change his behaviour.

TLDR: Agree to disagree, drop the topic, and get back to what this thread is about, namely Dark Eldar archetypes. Please.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

but but but... I like arguing!

but to be serious and back on topic.

I am sure we will see many builds that the general community will build. since theres more in the DE book then any Dex before it for effective builds we will probably see at tournaments. since we can actually pull off mech and non mech builds, with varied setups of them


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Can we do non-Mech builds? It'd be a toss up between WWP combat armies, and Voidraven/Sniper Warrior builds as far as I can see, but even in the Raven army your troops could use transports to get them from A to B.

Has anyone tried playing a serious game with Portals (now you're thinking with portals! sorry... :laugh? Because I don't think it's a good format. Yeah you get a few inches closer than you might otherwise, but you only get 50% of your army on the board, which invites being slaughtered piecemeal, or even worse if you're unlucky with your reserve rolls, and we have no way to make them better (such as the Autarch or Astropath).


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

yeah reserve playing has that problem always has. now if you could opt to not roll for the first 2 turns and only roll on the third turn, I could see some serious dangers to a deep strike army, let the enemy have 2 - 3 turns of doing whatever they wanted, then drop a bombshell of warriors in raiders on their heads and watch them die to a mass of splinter fire


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Well, serious and serious, but the WWP army i tested a while ago was actually very good. Maybe not OTT but good enough to smack some marines around.

But IMO, you don't need a portal army as such. To me, it seems the best implication of the WWP is to just have one (or two, if you're scared ) and have a couple of units meant to go through it. For example: A standard balanced list with some kabalites, wracks, a heamy or two with portals, some ravagers/ravens and a couple of units of beasts or grotesques in reserve. 2 units of beasts seems enough, and because they are so fast themselves it doesn't hurt too much when they are forced to enter play via a board edge.

The payoff however, is that you have a rather fragile, expensive but very fast unit get close to the enemy unharmed, and pretty much having a guaranteed charge. And while they may be a little expensive, they do hit like a freight train in overdrive.

Whereas a dedicated WWP army might not be the best idea. Seems a little like chaos daemons and we all know how tourney worthy they are 
I'm still gonna make one though.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Well, serious and serious, but the WWP army i tested a while ago was actually very good. Maybe not OTT but good enough to smack some marines around.
> 
> But IMO, you don't need a portal army as such. To me, it seems the best implication of the WWP is to just have one (or two, if you're scared ) and have a couple of units meant to go through it. For example: A standard balanced list with some kabalites, wracks, a heamy or two with portals, some ravagers/ravens and a couple of units of beasts or grotesques in reserve. 2 units of beasts seems enough, and because they are so fast themselves it doesn't hurt too much when they are forced to enter play via a board edge.
> 
> ...


Are Beasts the only thing worth bringing through a portal? Would spammed Grotesques be a good idea in higher point levels? Or anything else? I'm curious, since WWP seems to be an interesting if hard to exploit aspect of the Dark Eldar.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Hellions also look like a good choice for dropping through a portal, since their skyboards mean they can fly out even if the portal is surrounded, and they have problems getting to the enemy intact if you deploy them normally (have you tried hiding 15 skyboards? Makes me wish they just had jump packs like every other squad out there - much easier to hide).

Grotesques are also a good choice - getting around the whole 2-slots-per-mdel problem, which tends to make the squads so small they don't kill much.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

> Are Beasts the only thing worth bringing through a portal? Would spammed Grotesques be a good idea in higher point levels? Or anything else? I'm curious, since WWP seems to be an interesting if hard to exploit aspect of the Dark Eldar.


Not the only thing, but they are the most optimal IMO, as they can charge pretty much anything if they come in on the second turn and they are one of those units you can't put in a transport.

The last list I used with a WWP army had 3 taloi and 2 units of beasts (very mixed, so I could play a douchebag with wound allocation) and the taloi worked just fine. So could grotesques, but since they actually can jump in a raider they don't need it as much.
I do think the WWP has it's uses, hell a dedicated WWP army is fun as hell. 
I just think that for a more competitive army you shouldn't place all your eggs in one basket.

And honestly, what can grotesques do that a loaded unit of beasts can't?

Edit - Oh, and Sethis has some good points btw.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the WWP could be used, for anything you could hold in reserve that you would want to have come out at a later time at the designated point. IE: I want to have Grotesques, which work out nicely for the WWP builds since you can get a full squad of them right into the enemies grill without taking many, if any, wounds from being shot. or you could dump an incubi squad right onto the enemies doorstep. 

I would say though, any unit you want on the enemies side of the board or not shot until CC, would be a unit for the WWP. so Wytches, Incubi, grotesques, or a 20 man warrior squad you want to move in for a take and hold objective of the enemies point


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Hmm-hmm... interesting input. So from the looks of it the WWP is useful for letting an otherwise unwiedly/easily-shot-to-pieces unit get into killing range of the opponent, right? If so, I think that packs of surprise-Scourges with their Shard Carbines can be used to great effect because they can fly to otherwise hardly approachable places and then shoot stuff up with their shard carbines.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm not sure throwing non-combat units like Warriors and Scourge through the portal is the best idea - it tends to put them in Flamer/Heavy Flamer range, which is obviously a Very Bad Thing (tm)


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> well even then, its a 480 point squad, almost 1/4th of your army still. and even running cover to cover, Im assuming you probably had more threatening targets to the enemy? else your opponents obvously ignored taking out 1/4th of your army.
> 
> Also let it be said we did say Drazhars points are less of an urgency in 2k plus games.
> 
> ...


Lances took out the transports, including land raiders, leaving the opposing units on foot.


----------



## Ninja D (Nov 9, 2010)

A WWP would be used to great effect with large warrior units if done in conjuction with CC units. For example, if playing an objectives game, you use your tooled up Archon or Haemonculi to move forward in a raider with a bodyguard unit, drop the WWP and them move on and begin tying up/killing enemy units on objectives. A turn or two down the road, a large unweildy 20 man warrior unit pops out of the WWP and is much closer to your opponents objectives and can not only contest, it can score AND hold itself in place as a fire base on their side of the board. Since Wyches are better utilized moving around the board and slaying units in close combat (as are Wracks, the only other potential scoring unit if you have Haemis, or Helions if you take Sathonyx), you don't really want those CC scoring units to stay still and hunker down. Warriors are made for that sort of thing. I see the potential of a WWP being a nice added option for you to be able to decide where you want your units. You can bring them on your board edge (moving and shooting), you could deep strike them (shooting), or you could choose to bring them through the WWP (moving, shooting, assaulting). I see it as just something else your opponent has to worry about along with the insane speed and outmanuevring capabilities of the DE and having to deal with your units getting stronger as the game progresses.

In short, the WWP is not just another way to bring in DE units, its a way to put the pressure on your opponent and exult in the fear that he may not be able to hold off your realspace raid as they won't be able to effectively react to every potential threat you can present in any given phase.

This is why I like the DE codex, lots of options and most of those options are actually viable and varied. I haven't seen that in a while.


----------



## beakerpsych (Nov 12, 2010)

> Grotesques? For instance, you could take 30 Grotesques and use 3 cheap Haemos to drop WWPs in turn one. Said cheap Haemos run with nine Wracks with no upgrades in a Raider. Thats 1785 points so far, so theres 215 points left to gear up the Grotesques and maybe the Wracks with Aberrations/Acothysts with Scissorhands (easily the best thing you can give these guys). Or maybe three Haemos with Flesh Gauntlets you attatch to the Grotesques.


90 toughness 5 fnp wounds is pretty cool. the lack of invulnerable saves will make them less resilient than plagueberers (and at twice the cost). you would need the homunculii with the squad so that they don't berzerk on you. (350+pts gone with one bad roll. ouch)
You would never be able to touch a land raider though, so think you would need a monstrous critter or two, not a lot of 'scoring' units, the enemy would only have to kill three units of wracks then keep away from the grotesques.
My conclusion is it is too much invested in the grotesques. I would still use the grotesques in some list incarnations though. (and posted one with urien and wwp)
I could see one big unit on foot with a talos or cronos behind running forward, as bait/red herring/threat to take the heat off of the rest of my delicate army. Or a raider with 4 grotesques as a nice tarpit.


----------



## Dudds (Oct 2, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> but once people wise up to Dark Eldar in 5th, what takes priority to shoot. Drazhar will be a high target easily.


I have to disagree. I think one of the strengths of DE mobility is to completely throw your opponent and force their actoins. After playing and watching (unfortunately more of the latter) a few games lately, I've really enjoyed seeing how one move can really throw your opponent. The highlight so far was watching 9 reavers with three heat lances turbo boost up the board picking up a pain token in the process. The threat created by 9 Reavers, 3 heat lances, with fnp and +3 cover demonstrated how well DE can spread their threat. Having that ability is great for diverting attention away from some of your more vulnerable units.

Suffice to say, the reavers didn't take any casualties. As a spectator I was really impressed with how quickly the opponent could be put on the back foot.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Dudds said:


> I have to disagree. I think one of the strengths of DE mobility is to completely throw your opponent and force their actoins. After playing and watching (unfortunately more of the latter) a few games lately, I've really enjoyed seeing how one move can really throw your opponent. The highlight so far was watching 9 reavers with three heat lances turbo boost up the board picking up a pain token in the process. The threat created by 9 Reavers, 3 heat lances, with fnp and +3 cover demonstrated how well DE can spread their threat. Having that ability is great for diverting attention away from some of your more vulnerable units.
> 
> Suffice to say, the reavers didn't take any casualties. As a spectator I was really impressed with how quickly the opponent could be put on the back foot.


oh, I dont disagree with you on this. but eventully there will be an order of which things get prioritized. and i have a feeling drazhar will be one of the higher threat targets since he will probably be put in a squad and made like 500 points of evil CC goodness which is a threat magnet to ALOT of armies that dont have what it takes to deal with the CC


----------



## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I can agree with this. After having played a few games against them, i have found that I am taking out the Jetbikes first then the CC transports after that.


----------



## Kurce (Dec 23, 2009)

> first, as long as your CHARGING models can move the full 6" and ONE of your models can touch ONE of your opponents without entering terrain (i.e. 9/10 of your models are 7" away & 1 model is 6" away from their 1 model who is out of terrain) you are not required to take a terrain test but in fact pull his models out of terrain towards you


I was skimming through this thread when I saw this.

I think this is incorrect isn't it? The rulebook states that if any model has to go through terrain then you have to take a difficult terrain test don't you? I don't have my rulebook handy. I'll check it out and post it later, though.

Actually, if someone would be so kind, could someone explain to me how this would even work if it works like how the quote says? My first model, which *HAS* to be the closest model to the enemy unit, charges first to the closest model as possible. Let us just say that he gets there fine without passing through any terrain. The rules state that the *NEXT* closest model now charges the next closest, unengaged enemy model. So, would this mean that the 2nd model that is moving in the assault gets to ignore the terrain between those two models (the assaulting model and the model that it is assault)? Or, do you just hang your guys around outside of the terrain? 

I am almost about 99% certain your whole squad has to make a difficult terrain test if _*ANY*_ model has to pass through terrain when making an assault move.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Er, you have to make sure you're in the right place when you start the charge, but as long as you can legally just charge models that don't require you to take a terrain check you're golden.

Or you could field harlies. For all their atrocious issues, they *do* ignore difficult terrain. So they backflip through the trees, mock the defender's attempts to hold their position and show their targets a really novel trick for making a pencil disappear.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Or you could field harlies. For all their atrocious issues, they *do* ignore difficult terrain. So they backflip through the trees, mock the defender's attempts to hold their position and show their targets a really novel trick for making a pencil disappear.


Made even more amusing in this circumstance by the fact that the pencil is filled with approximately one kilometer of mono-filament wire which unravels in a place where one kilometer of _anything_ apart from nerve tissue is never meant to be.

Re: Assaulting into terrain

If the enemy has 9 men in a bunker and 1 man from the same squad outside, and your squad has exactly one man within 6" then the following happens:

You move the closest man into base contact with the man outside the bunker.

You move the rest of the squad as close to that man as you can, up to a maximum distance of 6".

The enemy squad then moves all of it's models as far as possible, up to 6", in order to get as many men as possible into base contact with your squad.

Since none of your men have entered the bunker, you do not need to make any kind of test, nor do you strike at Initiative 1.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Made even more amusing in this circumstance by the fact that the pencil is filled with approximately one kilometer of mono-filament wire which unravels in a place where one kilometer of _anything_ apart from nerve tissue is never meant to be.
> 
> Re: Assaulting into terrain
> 
> ...


Usually in the case of the bunker, both people agree that everyone's in it; sometimes models just don't fit.
It isn't like the game's exactly to scale, after all.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Really? Why on earth would you do that?

The game already has rules that give the squad most of the benefits of being in cover if the majority of the squad is in it?

The game switched over to true line of sight and "skimmers can sit in impassable terrain if they can balance" for a reason. Things fit or they don't. If they don't, then half of them fitting is enough to get that cover save.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Honestly, I read the relevant section in the rules. It does appear that difficult terrain only affects the first unit the way it's written THERE. 2nd, yes, if you can only get to 1 guy you only engage that single guy. Oddly enough, the faq says when charging if any of your guys count as going through difficult terrain, they all do. So, who is right? Who can say.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Er, what? Who is right? People who sit down and read the rules can sy.

When charging an unengaged squad, if you take a difficult terrain test you're assaulting into cover. So, if you can assault in such a way that you never go through terrain and instead force people to leave it in the defender's react phase, you're golden.

Granted, RAWwise there are some amusing tidbits. Banshee's don't benefit from their masks when assaulting into cover, since the BRB FAQ clearly states that rules and abilities that "break" due to the rules change aren't fixed and the fact that assaulting into terrain no longer gives a bonus to the defenders (since the masks negate bonuses the defenders would gain) but instead gives a penalty to the attackers. On the bright side, under 4th ed rules plasma grenades benefited the whole squad if one member had them, so ICs "shared" their grenades. At least that stupidity is gone, along with Frag Grenades actually benefiting Humanity more than they should.


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> Really? Why on earth would you do that?
> 
> The game already has rules that give the squad most of the benefits of being in cover if the majority of the squad is in it?
> 
> The game switched over to true line of sight and "skimmers can sit in impassable terrain if they can balance" for a reason. Things fit or they don't. If they don't, then half of them fitting is enough to get that cover save.


For the same reason people assume that 10 models can fit in one of the new Raiders...


----------



## Tylith (Jan 10, 2011)

I am personally becoming a huge fan of the Razorwing Jetfighter and Voidraven Bombers. Popping Land Raiders on the first turn is really fun.

Has anyone actually fielded the Decapitator? Would he make a squad of Mandrakes acutally useful, or does his Shade Stalker special ability mean that only he can come in perfectly?


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

He cannot ever join a unit, so no-one else benefits from his awesome "I appear anywhere" rule.

I do like the idea of having a squad of mandrakes, I can just never justify the ~150pt price tag to myself. Maybe if they had an option for an Agoniser or something...


----------

