# Why All the Hate for Powerful Characters?



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Why do people not like the Grey Knight fluff or other fluff that makes a certain Space Marine powerful? I mean, it's not like it matters how powerful they are, they aren't anything compared to the powers of Chaos. Not even Draigo is all that powerful in the grand scheme of things, so what's with all the hate? 

I just don't get how people get upset when humanity gets a powerful character, and yet Chaos has infinite power, and whenever a powerful Chaos character is going to be destroyed, Abaddon vs Eldrad for example, the Chaos gods just teleport Abaddon away so he doesn't die. The "OP" fluff that humanity gets cannot touch the stuff of Chaos. 

I understand that everything is supposed to be all grim-dark, but anything short of the Emperor coming back is still going to be grim-dark for humanity.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I don't hate Kaldor Draigo. The thing is that he does stuff only a Primarch or a very powerful Saint should be able to do. He is basically the good counterpart of Abbaddon. So it makes sense in a way despite him beating a Daemon-Primarch and tattooing his heart while just being angry. Apparently Matt Ward thinks anger gives your superman additional superpowers as he has done that with the Ultramarines as well.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Because Draigo is stupid and a poorly thought out bit of fluff. I mean, what is it that makes Draigo so special? What gives him the ability to beat up and carve a name on a Daemon Primarch? What makes him so super awesome that he can be in the realm of the Gods and none of them can kill him? And he just walks around fucking things up. What gives him this ability to be this super duper awesome warrior that no one can touch?

Also I haven't actually seen much hate for him in a while. I am certain that people have just gotten over it (Like myself) about a month or 2 after the Grey Knights codex was released.

And about Humanity having OP characters; I remembering reading an interesting take on the whole situtation (pretty sure it was here in Heresy) where the time of OP superhumans and characters was 30K and 40K is all about normal humans. 

An Imperium ruled, governed and defended by normal men & women. With the help of Space Marines & (a few) Saints of course.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Tyrannus said:


> I mean, what is it that makes Draigo so special?


Luck of the draw, some people are just a natural at certain things (driving, playing sports, manual labour, math, etc.) and Draigo took to his training/teachings better than others.



Tyrannus said:


> What gives him the ability to beat up and carve a name on a Daemon Primarch?


Lets see:
-He's a superhuman warrior
-He is trained to specifically fight daemons
-Draigo wears and fights with gear designed to combat daemons
-Mortarion is a daemon when they fight
-They fought in the material realm (that place daemons are hard pressed to remain)
-Mortarion just fought Draigo's master (there is no mention of what, if anything, that guy did to him before being killed.)

You know, it might just be me but I'd be inclined to believe all of those things definitely helped put things in Draigo's favour. Just saying..



Tyrannus said:


> What makes him so super awesome that he can be in the realm of the Gods and none of them can kill him? And he just walks around fucking things up.


How about they trapped him there to kill him, and he just has enough strength of will to try and fight against this fate. Being an exceptional superhuman warrior trained to fight daemons, you'd think he might have a slight edge when fighting against daemons with his anti daemon weapons and gear.



Tyrannus said:


> What gives him this ability to be this super duper awesome warrior that no one can touch?


cough cough natural at his craft cough cough armed with anti daemon gear cough cough


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

The reason he hasn't been killed by one of the Chaos gods themselves is because they want to watch him struggle. They don't want him to die, they just want him to fight an eternal fight. That's another reason I say that humanity needs characters like him. Chaos has sooooooooo much power, what's wrong with a handful of powerful humans?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Actually darkreever has some good points, and he forgot to add that Kaldor is a powerful psyker as well, which can explain how he dispatched the deadliest members of the Death Guard alone and unaided. Plus he was superpowered to begin with and had superwrath.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Lets see:
> -He's a superhuman warrior
> -He is trained to specifically fight daemons
> -Draigo wears and fights with gear designed to combat daemons
> ...


So apart from the whole Fighting Draigo's master, you've just listed traits of your typical Grey Knight.



darkreever said:


> How about they trapped him there to kill him, and he just has enough strength of will to try and fight against this fate. Being an exceptional superhuman warrior trained to fight daemons, you'd think he might have a slight edge when fighting against daemons with his anti daemon weapons and gear.


He must have some pretty strong equipment to survive being in the warp and kicking all kind of Daemonic ass so why didn't it stop him getting banished in the first place?

The jist of your argument (or at least what I am getting) is that he's a naturally talented Grey Knight, right? A space marine specifically trained to fight daemons with anti daemon equipment who just so happens to be exceedingly good at his job.

To me (I stress that this is just a personal opinion, nothing more) I find that reasoning a bit weak but I'll accept it because this is 40K. 
Weirder shit is bound to happen.

EDIT: I still think he was poorly thought out and they should really review his fluff when they get the chance.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Name him a Saint or something and I think the fluff about him is swallowable.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Tyrannus said:


> So apart from the whole Fighting Draigo's master, you've just listed traits of your typical Grey Knight.


Yeah pretty much, when you step back and think about it everything was against Mortarion in that fight.



Tyrannus said:


> He must have some pretty strong equipment to survive being in the warp and kicking all kind of Daemonic ass so why didn't it stop him getting banished in the first place?


Powerful enough equipment to fight daemons, says nothing about fighting the godly masters of those daemons.



Tyrannus said:


> The jist of your argument (or at least what I am getting) is that he's a naturally talented Grey Knight, right? A space marine specifically trained to fight daemons with anti daemon equipment who just so happens to be exceedingly good at his job.
> 
> To me (I stress that this is just a personal opinion, nothing more) I find that reasoning a bit weak but I'll accept it because this is 40K.
> Weirder shit is bound to happen.
> ...


The idea, that I get, from the character is that he is extrodinarily powerful and would be able to turn quite a few tides against chaos. Because of the threat he represents, he is trapped within the warp to be killed (or as is his case merely trapped and unable to return to his brothers.)

His story is definitely supposed to be a tragedy, because he is such a boon to the Imperium but is now left to fight a never ending battle, making no noticeable difference, and only rarely temporarily returning to fight alongside man and turn a tide or two.


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

Here is an Off Topic/ On Topic question, how long had Matt Ward been writing 40K Fluff at the point of writing the GK Codex/ Fluff?

I see a lot of promise in the Kaldor Draigo fluff myself if just tweaked here and there a little, that could portray him as a Strong willed Hero of the IOM while also adding a more Grim Dark twist to the background

For example:

He is trapped within the Warp with the Chaos Gods watching him trying to corrupt his soul, knowing it will be the ultimate prize, turning the Grand Master of the GK to their cause.

To do this they make him fight the same battle over and over again, and on the cusp of victory everything is started over again and he has to go through it all again this is his eternal torment seeing the final victory over Chaos before he is denied his reward.

With each win snatched away at the last moment his soul is made heavier and heavier as he loses hope and the seed of doubt is planted within, so far his training and strong will has kept him from falling and turning to the path of Chaos.

That is how I would write it anyway :laugh:


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Hooray, I get to fight this battle again.

Tyrannus sums up the argument against Draigo, and really, against Matt Ward by extension. Draigo is symptomatic of four grievances against him I had in another thread: flat characters, shattering of willing suspension of disbelief, violation of previously-established fluff, and attitude.

Yes, Draigo is a Grey Knight, and an accomplished one at that. That does not change the odds against which he would face against such powerful entities as Mortarion, or the daemonic entities within the realms of the Gods, or surviving the Warp in the first place where other mortals simply cannot survive. What's more, nothing has been presented that could alter the odds of survival; many have provided explanations, but Matt Ward embraces none of them.

It took 109 Grey Knights to tackle Angron and his Bloodthirster bodyguard in the First War of Armageddon, and only 13 survived. As for Draigo vs. Mortarion?



The Battle of Kornovin said:


> Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.


There are things we don't know, of course. We don't know about any prior fighting beforehand. We don't know how powerful Mortarion's bodyguard was. We don't know Mortarion's prior condition. Can we expect [satisfactory] answers from Matt Ward himself to these questions? Consider this, found on Draigo's page on GW's website:



Matt Ward said:


> Lord Kaldor Draigo is a combat monster - there's no other way to describe him. He's lethal against non-daemonic foes, with plenty of Strength 5 force weapon attacks to lay a beat down. When faced with hated Daemons, his Titansword becomes Strength 10, ensuring a pretty one-sided fight in his favour. Even if his enemy survives, Draigo's storm shield is sure to keep him fighting. And on top of all of this, Draigo is a Grand Master, able to bestow extra abilities on his allies. Want your Dreadknight to capture objectives? Draigo can make that happen. Want a Scouting screen of Dreadnoughts? Draigo can make it happen. He's the best possible way to keep your opponent on his toes.


Matt Ward has a history of shilling whatever faction it is he's working on; his comments on the Ultramarines in a White Dwarf article (can't remember which) are well known by now and do not bear repeating. This has given him a reputation in the eyes of many readers as a tool and a hack. Are we to accept at face value that Draigo defeated Mortarion effortlessly while the latter was at the pinnacle of his power?

Of course not. You can ask readers to accept the impossible, but not the improbable. 40k is full of impossibilities, but the setting must stay consistent with itself. That is why readers such as myself take issue with Draigo's battle against Mortarion and his thriving in the Warp - because both are improbable, and nothing has been done by Ward to even the odds. Couple this with Ward's percieved attitude and readers like myself get the impression that Draigo's achievements have been tacked on to increase the size of his proverbial dick, to make him look awesome.

Yes, Draigo's story is meant to be tragic - he can achieve no lasting victories against his daemonic foes, and he is trapped in the Warp for ten millennia. That point, however, could have been reached without such suspension-of-disbelief-shattering clutter. It's like squeezing a lemon with a Rube Goldberg device; sure, you have your lemon juice, but couldn't you have just as easily squeezed the lemon with your own hands?

To sum up, some readers don't like Draigo's fluff because _they don't believe it_.



stephen.w.langdon said:


> Here is an Off Topic/ On Topic question, how long had Matt Ward been writing 40K Fluff at the point of writing the GK Codex/ Fluff?


At least since White Dwarf 292 (314?); he wrote the Catachan Devil fluff for the Creature Feature.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The only main issue I take with Ward's _Codex: Grey Knights_ is the alteration of the Grey Knight's corruptibility from potentially corruptible but without ever a single one having fallen, to utterly incorruptible. They (including Draigo) have lost a lot of character in my eyes because of that.

Other, more minor things, like hiding a moon in the warp while Horus's fleet sails by I also think weren't the best way to go.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He just can't write fluff. It's all just very very poorly written and lacks any suspension of disbelief as said above. I've not read any fluff from Ward that I've liked, it all just seems to be aimed at a younger audience and doesn't feel grim dark to me.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> He just can't write fluff. It's all just very very poorly written and lacks any suspension of disbelief as said above. I've not read any fluff from Ward that I've liked, it all just seems to be aimed at a younger audience and doesn't feel grim dark to me.


I heard he's doing the next edition of Orks from a buddy of mine. Is this true? If so... well nice knowing you Orks.


@CotE Don't forget them bathing in the menstr... er.... blood of sisters of battle to make them better in combat versus deamons. I don't think that nugget should be forgotten.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Draigo cannot fail because he was cursed by a Tzeentchian daemon. His fate was never to die, but to be trapped forever. 

Nothing he accomplishes in the warp matters, no matter how badass it is.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And yet I still despise his fluff.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yet I still despise his fluff.


Fortunately you don't have to. :smoke:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Wut? Not sure I follow.


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## OgreChubbs (Dec 13, 2011)

We all know he is going to be a lame ass reincarnation off the emperor that's why he went silent on the golden potty. Then they added this crap to banish the daemon primarchs. So yup get ready for more dumb ass fluff about emperor dusty bones made a new son. The one son the rule them all :wacko:


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

I just dont get why he is still the supreme grand master of the grey knights. All of his questionable accomplishments aside. it seems highly impractical for the grey knights to STILL have him as supreme grand master. i mean shit. he cant do anything to help the running of the chapter or anything and only rocks up when he can. To me it doesn't seem like the Grey Knights he rocks up to help have any idea that he is coming. 

Surely by now the Grey Knights would have replaced him? Even if they still counted him alive, keeping him in "command" when HE ISN'T EVEN THERE, just seems like a colossal waste. That doesn't make any sense to me. Also i just finished the Emperor's gift, it didn't make a single mention of Draigo, whereas pretty much every other space marine book mentions the chapter master atleast once, even offhandedly. He's not even relavent to the bog standard Grey knight anymore. (though how bog standard they are is very very debatable :grin. Which simply put, makes him irrelevant and a waste of time/space in the codex.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Leaving aside the feasibility of Draigo's situation, what do the Grey Knights lose by keeping him as their leader?

The fact of the matter is that the Grey Knights, probably more so than any other Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes are meant to operate as a number of smaller forces rather than as one big army. They can only spare but a fraction of their strength even for the most terrible threats - e.g., Angron and a whole Khornate army invading Armageddon.

This means that the preponderance of Grey Knights forces will be led by a Justicar, a Brother-Captain, or an Inquisitor. Given the example cited above, can you imagine how rare it would be for a force to take to the field led by a Grand Master?

Bottom line, without discounting the value Kaldor Draigo would hold for the Grey Knights*, I can't help but think that this argument undervalues the ability of all the other leaders of that Chapter more so than it proves that the Grey Knights can't get the job done without their Supreme Grand Master. It ignores the extreme loyalty that Space Marines feel, which I think would very plausibly allow them to keep the same leader - even if he was lost to them - so long as they knew he was still alive and fighting the good fight! 

* Going by the logic of the Codex, for instance, it is doubtful that most of the Grey Knights would sent to fight Angron would have died.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Out of curiosity what would people call Kaldor Draigo if not Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights? I thought such a title was in effect as long as the chap was alive.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Out of curiosity what would people call Kaldor Draigo if not Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights? I thought such a title was in effect as long as the chap was alive.


The Bastard stuck in the warp, thus not able to lead a band of demon hunters, let alone an entire chapter. The Warp Crusader, Warp Knight, Warp Man. He can't lead the chapter for all purposes he is the worst leader, he is absent damn near 100% the time.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> The Bastard stuck in the warp, thus not able to lead a band of demon hunters, let alone an entire chapter. The Warp Crusader, Warp Knight, Warp Man. He can't lead the chapter for all purposes he is the worst leader, he is absent damn near 100% the time.


And goodaymanaxeshaft to you to. What shall he be instead? Former Supreme Grandmaster? Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia? Ex-Supreme Grandmaster?

I'm not disputing that he is very hands off in how he leads the Grey Knights or even the IOM as a High Lord with his leadership in absentia, but I still doesn't think his title should or maybe even can be revoked.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> And goodaymanaxeshaft to you to. What shall he be instead? Former Supreme Grandmaster? Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia? Ex-Supreme Grandmaster?
> 
> I'm not disputing that he is very hands off in how he leads the Grey Knights or even the IOM as a High Lord with his leadership in absentia, but I still doesn't think his title should or maybe even can be revoked.


I like Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia, right now he's Supreme Grandmaster only in name. Give the leadership to someone who can lead the knights. By having him be the the Supreme Grandmaster it seems as if they are saying that the only Grey Knight capable of doing the job is stuck in the warp and every other knight is so incompetent they are worse in comparison to someone that isn't there.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

locustgate said:


> I like Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia, right now he's Supreme Grandmaster only in name. Give the leadership to someone who can lead the knights. By having him be the the Supreme Grandmaster it seems as if they are saying that the only Grey Knight capable of doing the job is stuck in the warp and every other knight is so incompetent they are worse in comparison to someone that isn't there.


Hahaha that's quite a fun opinion. Now I see the meetings between the grandmasters stalling for years in the same spot as Kaldor Draigo ain't present and the chapter being close to shutting down each time he disappears into the warp due to every Grey Knight being an incompetent idiot who's brilliant answer to Draigo disappearing is to twiddle his thumbs wondering what to do next.

I liked Ex-Supreme Grandmaster best myself, but I guess Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia makes most sense and is the most in-universe of the titles I suggested.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> The reason he hasn't been killed by one of the Chaos gods themselves is because they want to watch him struggle. They don't want him to die, they just want him to fight an eternal fight. That's another reason I say that humanity needs characters like him. Chaos has sooooooooo much power, what's wrong with a handful of powerful humans?


So it is not hard to conceive that not any kind of gellar field type device keeps him material in the immaterial, but that it is the will of a/the chaos gods. They simply allow him to exist, because they find it humorous. This makes it seem a lot less 'badass'.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I liked Ex-Supreme Grandmaster best myself, but I guess Supreme Grandmaster in Absentia makes most sense and is the most in-universe of the titles I suggested.


Or Supreme Grandmaster Pro Tempore, for whenever he drops by for a visit. That and your 'in Absentia' both keep the whold bastardized Latin flavor going.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

There is difference between powerful and just out right broken mary sues (kaldor draigo matt ward corrupted ultramarines)

The grey knights to beat angron lost a lot of members to do so yet this one guy is able to curb stomp most of the warp and beat a deamon primarch like he was a just born blood letter its insane


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Demon of Humanity said:


> There is difference between powerful and just out right broken mary sues (kaldor draigo matt ward corrupted ultramarines)
> 
> The grey knights to beat angron lost a lot of members to do so yet this one guy is able to curb stomp most of the warp and beat a daemon primarch like he was a just born blood letter its insane


Ironically, on the table the Brotherhood Champions and Crowe have a far better chance of destroying any creature than Draigo does. Granted they die in the process. 

Fluff wise I large couldn't care less but I think the point has to be made that a single ordinary Grey Knight is a 1 in 1 million find before they then become a Space Marine.
The absolute top dog of a force of those type of people HAS to be ridiculously awesome, particularly v Daemons.

If you look at all of the Grey Knight special characters you'll see that each of them is ensnared in the warp one way or another. 
Perhaps the final irony is that rather than being incorruptible the Grey Knights are actually simply puppets of the warp?

The fluff is only as bad as you choose to make it, if it doesn't "fit" fr you just rethink it in a way that does.

I'd also point out that the "ordinaryness" of the CSM is widely criticised because they didn't get awesomeness like Grey Knights. It's another damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'd also point out that the "ordinaryness" of the CSM is widely criticised because they didn't get awesomeness like Grey Knights. It's another damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.


Personally I don't have a problem with the OTT characters but I do object to the way Draigo's story is written. It kind of feels like the kind of story you could overhear in a conversation between a couple of ten year olds: "My guy is better than your guy and he can survive in the warp, burn down nurgles garden...oh and BTW he beat a Daemon primarch"
I just wish that they had made it more of a story than just a couple of lines among a whole 2 page spread of fluff. They should have at least done something similar to the "Sanguinor vs. Ka'Bandha" story in the blood angels codex.
As Death Guard is one of my armies and favorite factions I hate how their Primarch is just bitch-slapped with no explanation just to make another character look cool.


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