# GW ... They Aren't That Bad



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

Before beginning, I just want you all to take a nice, long, deep breath.

Feel better don't ya?


Seriously, I leave for three days come back and this happens:







Replace, GLOBAL WARMING with GW PRICE INCREASE, and that's the way things seem to be going.

It also seems everyone is hating on GW ... and ... well ... you know ... they aren't that bad.


1. *GW ARE DOUCHBAGS FOR RAISING PRICES*

Ok, maybe they are, but then again maybe they aren't. I haven't seen their business accounts and financial reports, so maybe they are milking us for way too much money, or then again, maybe they aren't.

So you have to wait a while longer before buying GW models and products, and you can't have multiple 2000pt + armies. That might not be a bad thing.

It means more people (like me) wont buy a heep of models, and never get round to actually painting them. Its a hobby, hobbies are for life, not just for christmas ... or maybe thats hobbits ... I forget sometimes.


2. *GW SUCK, I HATE THEIR CODICES AND THEIR RULES*

Lots of people complain about new codices, older codices, lack of codices, the way codices are written. 

The fact is, they do a pretty great job IMO and to be honest they are getting alot better. 

Do they make mistakes? Yes, yes they do, but so does every company.

The only real fault I have with GW is their lack of interest in fixing simple mistakes or updating profiles every now and then based on the latest releases. They really should interact a little bit more with the fanbase, and address problems that are highlighted by wide spread gaming, kind of like computer updates.

Other than that they aren't terrible.

Also I believe alot of the problems with codices are with the people who play the game, and the way they play the game. 

The fact there are two ways to interpret rules and that you do need to be a lawyer with some people is annoying and GW cannot be held responsible for these people.

Again, were GW is at fault, is for not clarifying things, or updating them if necessary. 

As I said a litte more interaction would easily solve this problem.


3. *GW NEED TO UPDATE THE 40K STORY PASSED 40K*

This isn't a major complaint, and to be honest I believe it is a minority view (a real minority at that), but I just thought it was worth dismissing.

They really, really, really don't need to ever update the story passed 40k.

Loads of things have gone on before 40k that are worth exploring and advancing.

We don't need to know what happens past 40k, we can speculate and suggest; every single thing doesn't need to be explained. We have imaginations, and we do use them here at Heresy when arguing about the future of various races in the 40k universe. 

Also GW and Black Library deserve major props for their various novels, most of which (especially the HH series) are written to an increasingly high standard and are leased out to very capable authors who are bringing new aspects to the 40k fluff. High brow literature is actually being introduced to readers (especially younger ones) via the Horus Heresy series and that is great; Plato's cave, The Picture of Dorian Gray, (loads more I cant remember this late at night).


I'll address any other criticisms that come up during this thread, and add the response to this OP so people can see the big picture.


So maybe GW aren't that bad after all?

What say you?


(P.S Stop posting multiple freaking threads about the fact there has been a price increase)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

what id like to point out to people is that 40k is just that, year 40 000. so if their time passed as ours does, it would still be 40k even if its 40 999


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

You've only addressed one of the issues people are upset about, the price increase. The other two you mentioned are negligible or non-existent (the 3rd one). The other issues include GW barring Europe based online retailers like maelstrom from selling outside of Europe so basically those in Australia, Canada, etc (everywhere but US and EU) are stuck paying GW's outrageous prices. The rumor that they will stop giving incoming announcements until only days (one week?) before release. The switch from metal to resin with an accompanying price increase. The lack of FAQ support. The lack of transparency from a HOBBY company. 

It's important to understand this is hardly a logical issue as I've seen GW's decisions trying to be explained away by a number of forum members. Perhaps they are right. But this is more an emotional issue as many of us are highly invested in the game. It's a wonderful social experience, but the combination of all these issues makes many members of the player base feel betrayed. With all these drastic decisions coming on, where is the future of this hobby going? I certainly don't want to stick around to find out.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hurricane said:


> You've only addressed one of the issues people are upset about, the price increase. The other two you mentioned are negligible or non-existent (the 3rd one). The other issues include GW barring Europe based online retailers like maelstrom from selling outside of Europe so basically those in Australia, Canada, etc (everywhere but US and EU) are stuck paying GW's outrageous prices. The rumor that they will stop giving incoming announcements until only days (one week?) before release. The switch from metal to resin with an accompanying price increase. The lack of FAQ support. The lack of transparency from a HOBBY company.
> 
> It's important to understand this is hardly a logical issue as I've seen GW's decisions trying to be explained away by a number of forum members. Perhaps they are right. But this is more an emotional issue as many of us are highly invested in the game. It's a wonderful social experience, but the combination of all these issues makes many members of the player base feel betrayed. With all these drastic decisions coming on, where is the future of this hobby going? I certainly don't want to stick around to find out.


Yeah but loads of companies do that.

Just look at the way DVD's are sold, they are region locked.

It all has to do with currency and exchange rates. If you can buy products cheaper (cumulatively) from China, why ever by them from your own country?

Also why don't you want to stick around to find out ... its not that expensive?

A decent night out where I live is around £60-100 thats still quite alot of Warhammer models.

Also, so you can only buy one squad every 2, 3, 4 weeks, start off playing 500pts, then 1000pts etc.

The hobby isn't so expensive that only a privilaged minority can afford it.

Also I covered that yes they do need to interact with fan alot more, and that would indeed include things like announcing new releases.

But then again, as a business, if you announce a new model is being released in 6 months, how many consumers will continue to buy the soon to be replaced model.

Unfair? Yes. Always done ... Yes!!!

That's capitalism for you.


Seriously, no-one needs to quit the hobby.

I think this is a gut reaction thing, like people saying they will sell their PS3's because of the whole hacking downtime.

Just an overreaction. Are there problems, yes, are they insurmountable, no.

Thats my $0.02 anyway.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

The Warhammers are the only games I know that have 1/15th of the rules released with 6 month gaps, with the armies at the end of the cycle getting shafted as, make no doubt, the new edition will arrive straight after, starting the fractal eternal wheel all over.

GW insists on supporting the long since dead LoTR franchise and the total of 3 players that play it by taking out of the pockets of the hundreds of thousands that play the Warhammers.

White Dwarf is an advertisement catalogue that costs 10$.

Citadel can't make (many) paints or _any_ glue or tools worth a damn compared to their competitors to save their life.

Every year thousands leave the hobby with the annual arbitrary price increase.

Games Workshop insists of producing their product and keeping HQ in the United Kingdom, even if outsourcing and relocating could cut costs by over 50%+. The factory in Singapore that helped them finally get into the green numbers was closed down, for no apparent reason.

Games Workshop, in the same fell swoop as they embargoed independent stockists from selling cross-continent, raised prices in the Americas and Germany by 20% on most product.

On the embargo itself: they could have more easily shut down their own shops in Australia and America, as they are one hundred percent useless. They are nothing but a liability, but instead they choose to make it impossible to buy from anywhere else, making people quit (although GW probably thinks they will keep buying at 2X the price)

Upon switching to resin, a 94% cheaper material than pewter, those very products went up in price by 20% - and this is in a year where Games Workshop has had more profits than ever before.

Black Library, to this day, refuse to print a book that is not about the Imperium or Chaos. It still remains to be seen if they'll _ever_ hire a writer that can form coherent sentences.

Games Workshop's codex editors have as much concept of overarching balance as a sentient unicycle with a drinking problem.

Games Workshop, in recent history and until now refuse to license a video game that isn't about SPESS MUGHREENGS or the spiky variants.

Warhammer 40K has 6 armies that are more or less the same, but with different codices. This bloating ensures those who are playing something interesting and adding to the variety of the game with other armies, will be in pain for several years before they get new rules.

GW are blind to it's competitors, and these competitors are finally rising to the challenge of making product as good looking as GW coupled with vastly superior rules. This means GW is quickly pricing themselves out of business.

Make no mistake, GW is shit. It is the games that were imagined 35 years ago that are awesome. Too bad my Tau army won't even get 3 months in 5th edition with an updated codex before it goes obsolete.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Lets say you consistently order from Warstore, Maelstrom, etc and are suddenly told that you can no longer order from these sites. Now you are paying the full price from your original 20% off plus the new price hike. Would you be content to sit around and say, "Logically I can see why GW is doing this, so I'm just fine with it too."

I also never said that I could not afford the hobby and many others are in the same boat. Yet when there are considerable price hikes every six months or so, in addition to the other problems I've mentioned, I simply don't really feel like being a part of that.

Please take down your straw men as I never said anything about them having a new advertising model in which they announce models six months in advance. I'm talking about them changing from their current advertising model to one where they pretty much announce nothing at all. How is a customer going to save up to buy a new army when they only have a week to a couple days from release?

If I'm mainly in this for the social aspect of the hobby, and I know I'm not alone, why stick with GW when PP is right around the corner? They have immediate FAQs to their rulebooks that are all kept balanced and up-to-date, cost less overall, have beautiful models (imo of course), and most people in my area have already made the change.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Yeah but loads of companies do that.
> 
> Just look at the way DVD's are sold, they are region locked.
> 
> ...


while l agree with what you are saying but over here in Aus its around %80 to %110 dollar difference. Take a look a the tomb kings new codex in usa its $37 in aus its $62 if you convert Aus back to USA that's around $68 in USA dollars. However if you look at it the other way around if you convent $37 USA to AUS it comes to 34 Aus dollars.

l understand it may cost a bit more with shipping and tax but there is no reason for that much of a difference.

now l will still buy from overseas shops as l am sure GW can't watch everyone . But most people are piss off with the "GW barring Europe based on-line retailers like maelstrom from selling outside of Europe" then the price hike. People still need to clam down though.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

In my opinion, they have spent more time trying to get price increases and cutting jobs than actually trying to spread the hobby and make the big bucks like they did back in the day. Price has always alienated potential fans. They are retarded. So this price increase is suppose to help them somehow?

They're expecting us... the loyal fan (code name: dumbass) that stuck with the hobby to keep buying all this shit and go... "Oh well... I still like this shit." Stupid fucken bastards. And I've actually strained away from the hobby because they are stupid. I love building shit for the hell of it. But I'm not going to let them squeeze me. 

As far as the codexes.... I don't know. Firstly, we should be expecting some evolution from the fluff. Some of the fluff is good, but then again, its newer information like the Daemon Codex that we now have good information on. But others... just seem like a load of bullshit ideas they piled up. The Tyranid Codex with the fucken Parasite thing, Doom of Malantai... wtf? Really? Single Tyranids taking on entire worlds? Thats some stupid fucking bullshit. We also have another Tyranid thats still hiding in Ultramar somehow. Okay... whatever. 

Of course... then we have the new Grey Knights codex. Which has the inquisition but only limited parts of it. Doesn't even have legitimate imperial guard options or battle sisters. 

Lets go back to Chaos. WTF! WTF! Seriously? A Chaos Space Marine Codex and A Daemons of Chaos Codex? You can't even use that book to play a legitimate army. They destroyed the fluffness of chaos! STupid Bastards. 

They also decided to make some cute codexes for the Black Templar and Dark Angels... which... cough.. cough... I must say. Suck dick. But for some reason wish not to shine any light on a Chaos Legion army which would probably boost GW with a whole bunch of teenage funs that walk by the GW stores and would probably say "ooooh look at the awesome night lords... or fucken dang Iron Warriors in those tanks." Cause we all know... EVERYBODY LOVES CHAOS! But why do that? Why help themselves out? I have a traditional GW idea! Lets make another second founding chapter codex!!! WTF! Lets also make the most interesting Chapter from the most interesting Legion look like shit on the table top!!!

GW really needs some interogator chaplains to fix this fricken problem. And yes... I'm afraid there must be blood!


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Guys, seriously, chill the FUCK out.

Games Workshop is just a company doing the best it can. Now, do I think it's made all the right decisions? No, hell it's made some pretty poor ones lately but the better way to handle it is be SUPPORTIVE of the company and try to help it get through hard times rather than bitch and moan about every single thing GW does (*cough*MetalHandkerchief*cough*).

It's not the fucking end of the world, if you don't like GW so much then either A: stop playing or B: solve your problems instead of bitching. For example, GW prices got you down? Boo fuckidy hoo, just buy from a third party that sells GW for cheap (I recommend darksphere.co.uk personally).

It's honestly not that hard, it's all this whining thats making it 1,000 times worse.

OP: I've never heard a single person ever complain about #3. Ever.....?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey! I also have the right to bitch! I don't give a shit! I'll bitch. I've been a loyal fan for over a decade. Fuck them. And for your info, I actually do not buy models at all from GW. And a few of my friends have strayed away from the hobby completely. I know many people who have also just stopped playing the game all together.

The only reason why I've managed to keep on the GW bandwagon is pretty much because of Black Library and the great work of a few Authors. Thats pretty much it. Sad thing is you can't really alienate yourself from GW completely if your a fan of purely the fluff because of the Codexes. You just can't do it. Those things are lethal for fluff. 

And come on! Your making it sound like this has only been happening for a couple years. Its been happening ever since I joined the hobby... back in the day.. till. Those fuckers need to fix something or either A) it goes down the drain as soon as another depression hits, or B) the fluff and coolness of warhammer is slowly changed to childish bullshit where GW sells itself out to younger fans just to preserve itself.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Scathainn said:


> Guys, seriously, chill the FUCK out.
> 
> Games Workshop is just a company doing the best it can. Now, do I think it's made all the right decisions? No, hell it's made some pretty poor ones lately but the better way to handle it is be SUPPORTIVE of the company and try to help it get through hard times rather than bitch and moan about every single thing GW does (*cough*MetalHandkerchief*cough*).
> 
> ...


Typical bitch-out attitude. You say bitching doesn't help? Well fuck me. I thought silently bending over and taking the corporate rod is what didn't help! Maybe if the customers are, you know, reacting poorly to the company and their poor practice in public, potential new players would steer away. Right now I wouldn't want my worst enemy to start up these games, until this company can show they got at least someone intelligent and educated making desicions.

Fact is, I reserve the right to "bitch and moan", and you forget that I am completely unaffected by Games Workshop's latest shark attack - I just can not stand by and watch their metaphorical rape of other customers that are.

No. I will not chill the fuck out. I will do my part as a human being and show some fucking sympathy.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

@Scathainn

I really like how you complain about the complainers...then go ahead and complain some more. You also seem to be oblivious to one of the larger concerns that the player base is having by saying,


> Boo fuckidy hoo, just buy from a third party that sells GW for cheap (I recommend darksphere.co.uk personally).


Ya thanks for being completely unhelpful by throwing more gasoline on the fire and offering no viable solution besides quitting, which I already have. If you really want to set an example, than just be calm and present a sound argument.

Also, why is it that everyone is talking about the expense being the sole reason people are leaving? MetalHandkerchief has many points, most of which I agree with, that are why I'm leaving GW. Beyond that however is again the fact that for many this is more than just a complete price/logic issue. People become highly involved in their hobbies and when a company makes all these changes it betrays the loyalty that the player base has for the company.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Scathainn said:


> GW prices got you down? Boo fuckidy hoo, just buy from a third party that sells GW for cheap (I recommend darksphere.co.uk personally).


Wow, that's a fantastic idea! Oh wait, they already covered that one. You see, we used to be able to do that, in fact, many of us did, but now no-one outside the EU can have those cheap prices. 

Hell, I have always payed Australian RRP (since I make so much use out of the local Battle Bunker, it's only right), and I'm pissed off- not because the hobby just got more expensive for me, but because I guess I feel a sense of betrayal after 7 years of staunch loyalty. 

I think you'll find that the general consensus of people outside the EU would actually understand a moderate price increase (say 20%), for shipping and differences in local economy and wotnot, but really, the difference people have to pay for not being European/American is ludicrous. I imagine that most Southern Hemispherians (if that's not a real word, then too bad) are really feeling a sense of discrimination, GW is basically saying that us convicts have to pay more exorbitantly more than our cousins of the motherland, just because they can.

D-A-C, may I ask where you're from? Because I'd bet a pretty penny that you're either in the US or EU. Assuming I'm correct (and if I'm not, then you're a fucking saint), perhaps before you condemn others for being vocal in their displeasure, you should walk a mile in their shoes?


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

@MetalHandkerChief Re: Black Library

You say that Black Library refuse to publish any books that aren't about imperium or chaos? I refer you to the book "Path of the Warrior", where the main character is an eldar, and chronicles the path of his journey from artist to aspect warrior. No chaos or imperial there i think you'll find. I will concede that the book isn't actually very good, but that stems more from the difficulty in making an alien race accessible to Human mentality, while retaining the otherworldliness of a race that has no comparisons among our kind. Put simply, imperial and chaos books sell well because humans can relate to them. Alien books do not sell well, because they are more difficult to emphasise with.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Grokfog said:


> @MetalHandkerChief Re: Black Library
> 
> You say that Black Library refuse to publish any books that aren't about imperium or chaos? I refer you to the book "Path of the Warrior", where the main character is an eldar, and chronicles the path of his journey from artist to aspect warrior. No chaos or imperial there i think you'll find. I will concede that the book isn't actually very good, but that stems more from the difficulty in making an alien race accessible to Human mentality, while retaining the otherworldliness of a race that has no comparisons among our kind. Put simply, imperial and chaos books sell well because humans can relate to them. Alien books do not sell well, because they are more difficult to emphasise with.


Hmm, well Fire Warrior was alright. The game turned out shit though. Maybe it's the _Silmarillion_ syndrome playing into the Path of the Warrior book. I haven't read PotW, might give it a look. God Silmarillion was hard to wrap one's head around at age 12. Elven god hymns and whatnot :laugh:


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## a_bad_curry (Mar 10, 2011)

What i do is buy everything from ebay. Everything. Even paints if i can get them, screw GW. I have been into a GW 3 times. Once, the guy tried to sell me marines. The second time, the guy tried to tell me i needed bout 5000000 paints for altansar guardians. I can understand that. The 3rd time i bought a battleforce. The guy probably recognised me and just didnt help that time.
Dont like the marine bias, the fact my army will be the next dark eldar and will probably get a new codex in 7th edition while my rules lawyer friend gloats about his bloody marines, and the other friend pretending to feel my pain while he puts mephiston with ws 10, s 10, 32457902 attacks etc. near my precious striking scorpions or fire dragons. This is the only reason i play chaos, so i can be competitive when necessary.
If GW promoted other races more, such as IG, Eldar, Dark eldar etc. maybe people would play them more.
I dont have a problem with the books
I think there should be a Necromunda style game for say, 50k, with the factions being like, order and disorder. Eg. Eldar minority, Tau and Imperium vs Chaos Minority, necrons, nids. something like that


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

It was the last straw. I could deal with the price rises and the resin, but I refuse to pay 2x the UK/US price for absolutely no reason.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

i have to agree that the prices are outrageous. i live in the U.K where they're cheapest and i haven't purchased anything major in 3 years. must be hell for those really involved


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

If I'm tired of constant price rises, I stop BUYING the stuff. I don't have to stop PLAYING (rules and models don't suddenly stop working if you stop buying more). It's not a strictly pay-to-play dealio. 
It's perfectly possible to play the game with models sourced from somewhere else (unless you like vampire or werewolf/viking marines, in which case Twilight might suit better) - you don't HAVE to use their product to play THEIR game (unless you are playing in THEIR stores, in which case, you're already damned.).

They are no more evil than Apple or Sony. GW have never destroyed one of their products that I purchased because I answered "NO" to one of their T&C (Are you going to play 40k with these models? No. *fump* lump of melted plastic.) - unlike the aforementioned fruit company.

[Not accepting the iTuNeS T&C will kill the mbs on your IpOd and otherwise brick it, killing it forever.]


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

chromedog said:


> If I'm tired of constant price rises, I stop BUYING the stuff. I don't have to stop PLAYING (rules and models don't suddenly stop working if you stop buying more). It's not a strictly pay-to-play dealio.
> It's perfectly possible to play the game with models sourced from somewhere else (unless you like vampire or werewolf/viking marines, in which case Twilight might suit better) - you don't HAVE to use their product to play THEIR game (unless you are playing in THEIR stores, in which case, you're already damned.).
> 
> They are no more evil than Apple or Sony. GW have never destroyed one of their products that I purchased because I answered "NO" to one of their T&C (Are you going to play 40k with these models? No. *fump* lump of melted plastic.) - unlike the aforementioned fruit company.
> ...


Exactly my feelings, though i imagine many of the "quitters" are just gonna carry on in the hobby anyway and will end up paying the increase despite protesting on here or elsewhere.

But as chrome and many others have said "why quit?" thats like saying "im quitting watching my dvds because Amazon have done X" If prices have gone up you just have to either get proactive and look for bargains elsewhere or spread your spend out over a longer period to complete your collection.


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

The only thing I would really like to see is Games Workshop go the way of Wizards of the Coast (Magic: the Gathering) in regards to thier business model. WotC had stores imbedded in malls across the world to promote thier product, which had to compete with other independent businesses. Then came the advent of the Internet Retailer like Star City Games (biggest independent MtG vendor/tournament host) which could severly undercut WotC store's profits. What did they do, became a strict "distributor only" to all independent stores. They now could set prices at whatever they wanted for retailers, no longer had to compete with profits made directly of the consumer, and no longer had to deal with the overhead of brick and mortar stores. In return, they pulled through some of the toughest economic times for hobby games and now boast the best sales among all TCGs retailers in the world.

If GW would go to "distribution only" they would no longer be constrained by prices that also support their brick and mortar stores, no longer need to embargo outside companies, and no longer need to sell directly from thier internet or brick and mortar stores. In the end, prices go down for consumers and independent stores get more opportunity for revenue, with local game stores seeing increased activity.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I would agree with this idea with one small addition. I think large "battle Bunker" locations in major areas should be kept. This allows them to have representation in certain areas and large gaming venues. Otherwise I think you are right on. I never enjoyed gaming in GW shops because they are usually small and have "HIGH" pressure sale associates.


Doc


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

docgeo said:


> I would agree with this idea with one small addition. I think large "battle Bunker" locations in major areas should be kept. This allows them to have representation in certain areas and large gaming venues. Otherwise I think you are right on. I never enjoyed gaming in GW shops because they are usually small and have "HIGH" pressure sale associates.
> 
> 
> Doc


Yep, completely agree. WotC also maintains it Pro Tour and Grand Prix circut, which are major metro area tournaments with huge support from both regional vendors and WotC itself. GW could easily do this with its "Battle Bunkers" and through Independent Retailers, which not only promotes the hobby, but generates free advertisements via the Independent Retailers involved in hosting the events.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Well SlamHammer you have hit the nail on the head. I feel that the plan you detailed with my small input would be win win for everyone. 1. GW would decrease overhead and increase profits. 2. Local brick and mortar stores would get all the local buisness allowing for successful small buisnesses 3. We win because they could make prices more competitvein regards to other companies. 4. more organized tourny's with cool prizr support.


Doc


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> The Warhammers are the only games I know that have 1/15th of the rules released with 6 month gaps, with the armies at the end of the cycle getting shafted as, make no doubt, the new edition will arrive straight after, starting the fractal eternal wheel all over.
> 
> GW insists on supporting the long since dead LoTR franchise and the total of 3 players that play it by taking out of the pockets of the hundreds of thousands that play the Warhammers.
> 
> ...



This. Thisthisthis. Thank you for making my screeching rant for me.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

a_bad_curry said:


> I think there should be a Necromunda style game for say, 50k, with the factions being like, order and disorder. Eg. Eldar minority, Tau and Imperium vs Chaos Minority, necrons, nids. something like that


I am actually working on something like this right now. I'm tired of watching kids leave the hobby because they don't have 300 shmuckers hard cash to spend right when they start. Also I was too late to join my store's Mordheim campaign so...

Also I was really inspired by path of the warrior. It would be interesting to play out the progress of a guardian to aspect warrior and then to exarch or warlock within the warband. Or the ritual duels to draw more warriors to an exarch.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not blind to the irony that I'm bitching about people bitching.

But at this point it's really getting out of hand.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I like both the background and the game of both 40K and Fantasy Battle; I like them enough that GW is a significant proportion of my non-essential spending in the last year.

I would love for product to be cheaper in the UK; however, I own a lot of product already, so - unless I suddenly decide to start a completely new army - I can buy as much as I can afford without suffering.

It would be great if everything was updated in a single pass, with regular updates; however, I care about having fun a lot more than I care about winning so a perfectly balanced system is a luxury.

I am not an economist, so have no strong stance on closing off certain points of sale.

So - whilst I have no real issue with people objecting to things GW do - I have no real problem with GW myself.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> GW insists on supporting the long since dead LoTR franchise and the total of 3 players that play it by taking out of the pockets of the hundreds of thousands that play the Warhammers.


Source please? This sounds like hyperbole to me. While we know that LotR makes less money then 40k and WHFB I doubt it is single handedly bringing down GW or they never would have renewed the licence.



> White Dwarf is an advertisement catalogue that costs 10$.


A magazine published by the producer of a product and people still seem mystified by the fact that it seems to promote newer products. Look at magazines like Xbox monthly, PSM and Nintendo Power all first party games get amazing reviews even when third party reviewers give them average/poor reviews.


> Citadel can't make (many) paints or _any_ glue or tools worth a damn compared to their competitors to save their life.


Tools are tools and glue is glue, hell I'd bet they buy from the same producer. Paints are another matter, but for the general hobbiest their paints are just fine.


> Every year thousands leave the hobby with the annual arbitrary price increase.


Source? What does it mean to leave the hobby? Not buying models? Not playing games? Not building models? A combo of any two? Combo of three? 


> Games Workshop insists of producing their product and keeping HQ in the United Kingdom, even if outsourcing and relocating could cut costs by over 50%+. The factory in Singapore that helped them finally get into the green numbers was closed down, for no apparent reason.


The only thing they could "outsource" is production, which they have been doing. Plus where would they relocate to? America has the highest corperate taxes in the world and relocating to mainland Europe won't save to much money on the conversion.


> Games Workshop, in the same fell swoop as they embargoed independent stockists from selling cross-continent, raised prices in the Americas and Germany by 20% on most product.
> 
> On the embargo itself: they could have more easily shut down their own shops in Australia and America, as they are one hundred percent useless. They are nothing but a liability, but instead they choose to make it impossible to buy from anywhere else, making people quit (although GW probably thinks they will keep buying at 2X the price)


Has anyone bothered to look into WHY GW charges so much in Australia? Closing down stores may not make much of an impact if GW has to pay high costs to own warehouses and ship into the country. Of course it plays into peoples ideas of the company being evil if they ignore those questions and think it's pure greed.


> Upon switching to resin, a 94% cheaper material than pewter, those very products went up in price by 20% - and this is in a year where Games Workshop has had more profits than ever before.


This was discussed in the Metal to Resin thread, but just because the materials cost went down it doesn't mean that the total cost of the product goes down. GW needs new equipment (big investment), new and additional molds (as they don't last as long anymore), casting takes longer so you have to get more employees to cast it, and you can't recast bad units so they must be tossed (for a total loss on the unit).


> Black Library, to this day, refuse to print a book that is not about the Imperium or Chaos. It still remains to be seen if they'll _ever_ hire a writer that can form coherent sentences.


covered in this thread already, but Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer is coming soon. Plus when you look at the WHFB books there are plenty of books about elves and dwarves.


> Games Workshop, in recent history and until now refuse to license a video game that isn't about SPESS MUGHREENGS or the spiky variants.


Because thats what sells and what people recognize. Other races aren't interesting enough (Necrons, Orks, and nids), make bad stories (Eldar and Dark Eldar), or aren't strong enough to make a hero character (Tau, IG, SOB). Most people that want to play games need a hero(s) that can make heroic stands against hordes of enemies and Space Marines are designed in the fluff to fit that bill.


> Warhammer 40K has 6 armies that are more or less the same, but with different codices. This bloating ensures those who are playing something interesting and adding to the variety of the game with other armies, will be in pain for several years before they get new rules.


And if they went from 6 to 2 everyone would complain that the Space Marine codex is too big with too many options and all codices should be like that or the 4 unique chapters (DA are a stretch but hey) get watered down to being lame and players complain. Anyway you slice it people complain because it's hat they're going to do.


> GW are blind to it's competitors, and these competitors are finally rising to the challenge of making product as good looking as GW coupled with vastly superior rules. This means GW is quickly pricing themselves out of business.


As good looking as GW doesn't mean the product is as good as GW. Plus their competitors can't match GW in aspects that would draw people into the game, like fluff and setting. There's more to getting people into this game then price or people would drop the game once it was priced above another.


Personally, I couldn't care less about GW. Increasing prices just means I buy less product per year. I just don't like people making a company out to be evil puppy and kitten killers when they have no evidense of it. Plus, if the company is increasing their prices and you still want to buy new products they have to be doing SOMETHING right.


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## Jubble (Jan 25, 2011)

a_bad_curry said:


> What i do is buy everything from ebay.





chromedog said:


> If I'm tired of constant price rises, I stop BUYING the stuff.


I agree with these sentiments - if you don't like the way the rules are developing and costs are increasing, be part of market forces and buy second-hand, or cheaper non-GW models. If the rules are being updated and you need a new codex or 12 and you don't feel the urge to play the new rules, just stick with the rules and codexes you've been used to. Buy the new models if they take your fancy, otherwise don't.

Reading the GW plc interim results from last year it looks like GW profits are decreasing, although of course they're forecasting increases. They state that sales are down but gross margin has increased, which offset one another - basically they've reduced costs by lowering staffing levels at their stores and consolidating their manufacturing to the UK, and by producing more plastics the overhead per model is lower as their easier to mass produce.

So I buy almost everything on eBay, and get enjoyment out of the hobby by making up scenarios and back-stories, playing enjoyable games with mates, and spending time being creative without spending too much.

On another point, there will always be a lot of turnover of people into the hobby, as teenagers grow up, find girls (or boys of course), jobs, families, then remember the good ole times and start playing again. Only natural.

So in summary I think the competition is increasing for GW and they will lose market share, but that doesn't really matter 'cause that just means more choice for the gamer.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

GW aren't bad. In terms of the rulesets these are quite well done, all they need is to be more precise and clearer with the writing, the mechanics of Fantasy are excellent and solid enough in 40k. Both are very well balanced as well considering the massive numbers of variables. If PP had to deal with a system of the size and complexity of Fantasy with all the variables and the dozens of armies and hundreds of units there are they would not be better than GW (if you believe they are better in the first place). The vast majority of the problems are self-inflicted by the players themselves.

The price rises aren't that bad anyway, you may have to buy things spread over a longer period of time but thats not gonna kill you. For the most part its people unable to handle thier own money that leaves them unable to spend as much as they want on GW.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Someone already covered most of this - but there were a few more things:



MetalHandkerchief said:


> The Warhammers are the only games I know that have 1/15th of the rules released with 6 month gaps, with the armies at the end of the cycle getting shafted as, make no doubt, the new edition will arrive straight after, starting the fractal eternal wheel all over.


So what alternative would you offer? Do you think they should update all the rules at the same time and then trickle release the models over the following 5-6 years? Thats what they did in rogue trader eras and basically all anyone ever complained about was that they had all these rules and no models for them - thats a fantastic backwards step there.

Also - its not 6month gaps - those gaps are ever decreasing, especially if you look at this year.

and -if you want an example of a game that releases its rules piecemeal over protracted periods of time - just look at D&D/ AD&D - their rules are released very slowly and they specifically held back character classes from the main players guide (like druids) to encourage people to buy the second one sold 2 years later...




> GW insists on supporting the long since dead LoTR franchise and the total of 3 players that play it by taking out of the pockets of the hundreds of thousands that play the Warhammers.


There are LOTS of good reasons for this if you bothered to look.

1) They have a contract to pay for - they pay out each year of that contract and no one cares if they dont actually do anyting with it, they still have to pay for it.

2) they have the hobbit films comming out in a years time - wait and watch the boom roll back in.

3) I hate the game, I want that clear - but other people do NOT hate the game and it would be 'Epic' all over again if they just dropped it suddenly.



> White Dwarf is an advertisement catalogue that costs 10$.


I say this all the time - I go back to the old one and look at them and think, actually, this is no better - this WD is over half as short and has more adverts (some of them back in the early 90's had adverts for non-GW products as well!) and the back of the magasine was dedicated to 10+ pages showing the unpainted models you could buy!



> Every year thousands leave the hobby with the annual arbitrary price increase.


Do you have some evidence of this other than hearsay?



> Games Workshop insists of producing their product and keeping HQ in the United Kingdom, even if outsourcing and relocating could cut costs by over 50%+. The factory in Singapore that helped them finally get into the green numbers was closed down, for no apparent reason.


Wow - that would make sense now wouldnt it. As far as I know that other factory was closed down because it was producing more than they needed and it was easier to keep it all under 1 roof. Thanks for recommending that a major (for nottingham) employer in the UK should simply up sticks and bugger off somewhere cheaper. I hope the same happens to the companies in norway for you too. Sigh...



> Games Workshop, in the same fell swoop as they embargoed independent stockists from selling cross-continent, raised prices in the Americas and Germany by 20% on most product.


That reminds me of oil companies... This happens in all sectors to certain products at certain times - whats your point?



> Upon switching to resin, a 94% cheaper material than pewter, those very products went up in price by 20% - and this is in a year where Games Workshop has had more profits than ever before.


Please stop quoting facts that are entirely fabricated. You categorically do NOT know what sort of resin is being used. You categorically do not know the cost of that resin and more over you are lying by omission by stating those figures because the cost of the resin will NOT be the deciding factor on that switch - it will be the level of automation, the cost of producign the molds more often, the wastage factor - all things that affect the price.



> Games Workshop, in recent history and until now refuse to license a video game that isn't about SPESS MUGHREENGS or the spiky variants.


Erm - define 'recent' history - there are LOTS of computer games they made that didnt focus around space marines:

fire warrior
dark omen
shadow of the horned rat
warhammer online
Mark of chaos
Blood bowl

Im sure there are more - what was your point again?


> Make no mistake, GW is shit. It is the games that were imagined 35 years ago that are awesome. Too bad my Tau army won't even get 3 months in 5th edition with an updated codex before it goes obsolete.


The game that was imagined 35 years ago...

Sorry what game was that - 40K was written in 1987 (give or take) thats 24 years ago, hell even fantasy was 1983 - so thats only 28 years old!


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Well they coud move to Ireland with our 12.5% corporation tax  then i could work there without having to move countries and i could sort out all these problems by drop-kicking mark wells in the teeth. :biggrin:


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> Has anyone bothered to look into WHY GW charges so much in Australia? Closing down stores may not make much of an impact if GW has to pay high costs to own warehouses and ship into the country. Of course it plays into peoples ideas of the company being evil if they ignore those questions and think it's pure greed.


Yes l have, 

l have tried many times before to figure it out, as far as l can work out its cost $2 to ship a normal size box of men to the Aus (mass ship). they then pay around $2.50 more for custom and to get the item to the store. Now from there things get hard as l can never seem to find a %100 sure cost of how much it cost them to make each box. Also l don't know how much it cost them to run a store as l am sure the rent is different in each area and so on.
Overall it cost them "around" $6 aus dollar's to make a 10 man unit, it then cost $4.50 to get out here that's a total of $11.50 now they sell it at the store for $41.00. Now l know they got to make a profit and l have not added in the store cost but l am sure its not that high. As a side note the same unit in the USA sells for $24 US dollar's or 22 Aus dollars.

the only reason l can see is the Australian dollar.

In 2001, the value of one Australian dollar went below 50 US cents for the first time. As of May 2006, the Australian dollar was worth 77 US cents. Now its about even (100 US cents) but the cost models have still gone up. we have gone up at the same rate as everyone else, for example USA is going up by %10 and so is Aus which makes sense but they seem to use the old cost not the new.

in 2001, 20 IG would cost $40 Aus and $20 US which was very good and fine. but now its not even.

Edit: l also forgot to say there is a %10 GST from the final sell cost which is whatever they set it to.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

SlamHammer said:


> The only thing I would really like to see is Games Workshop go the way of Wizards of the Coast (Magic: the Gathering) in regards to thier business model. WotC had stores imbedded in malls across the world to promote thier product, which had to compete with other independent businesses. Then came the advent of the Internet Retailer like Star City Games (biggest independent MtG vendor/tournament host) which could severly undercut WotC store's profits. What did they do, became a strict "distributor only" to all independent stores. They now could set prices at whatever they wanted for retailers, no longer had to compete with profits made directly of the consumer, and no longer had to deal with the overhead of brick and mortar stores. In return, they pulled through some of the toughest economic times for hobby games and now boast the best sales among all TCGs retailers in the world.
> 
> If GW would go to "distribution only" they would no longer be constrained by prices that also support their brick and mortar stores, no longer need to embargo outside companies, and no longer need to sell directly from thier internet or brick and mortar stores. In the end, prices go down for consumers and independent stores get more opportunity for revenue, with local game stores seeing increased activity.





docgeo said:


> I would agree with this idea with one small addition. I think large "battle Bunker" locations in major areas should be kept. This allows them to have representation in certain areas and large gaming venues. Otherwise I think you are right on. I never enjoyed gaming in GW shops because they are usually small and have "HIGH" pressure sale associates.
> 
> 
> Doc





SlamHammer said:


> Yep, completely agree. WotC also maintains it Pro Tour and Grand Prix circut, which are major metro area tournaments with huge support from both regional vendors and WotC itself. GW could easily do this with its "Battle Bunkers" and through Independent Retailers, which not only promotes the hobby, but generates free advertisements via the Independent Retailers involved in hosting the events.


Winning... duh :goodpost:.


GW suks, everything its been doing RECENTLY Suks.


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

Ultimately, the "buy it online" creed is likely the culprit of our current plight. I'm guilty of it myself, alot actually. But in the end it all goes back to not supporting FLGS's. An FLGS will give you a 10%-20% in-store discount.....yet people STILL shop online because they can get 10%-20% off TAX FREE. This way Local Business doesn't get your dollar (or equiv.), nor does the state/province. You lose twice. Because now, not only do you not have a place to play 40k, your children are retarded to add insult to injury...Why? Because you bought that last box of Space Wolves off of Ebay.

Here is my understanding of how Games Workshop handles biz. GW makes their models, pack them, and distributes them to all of their own GW Stores, as well as Independent Hobby Stores, and Online Distributors (competitors). Now, GW net profit off of sales inside their stores are great, they get the models the cheapest of anyone, so there is good money there....but they can't make money if they can't sell product the because the online distributors they recently sold to has been undercutting them on price. 

So I suggest, if GW would like to increase their profits AND keep player base (price hike gripe). Increase the price per unit to all Online Retailers. The OR's move more than enough product due to the modern geeks' laziness and social fears of actually leaving the house. ANYTHING to promote buying at the store level, if they can achieve that, would only help the game itself.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Killystar Gul Dakka said:


> Ultimately, the "buy it online" creed is likely the culprit of our current plight. I'm guilty of it myself, alot actually. But in the end it all goes back to not supporting FLGS's. An FLGS will give you a 10%-20% in-store discount.....yet people STILL shop online because they can get 10%-20% off TAX FREE. This way Local Business doesn't get your dollar (or equiv.), nor does the state/province. You lose twice. Because now, not only do you not have a place to play 40k, your children are retarded to add insult to injury...Why? Because you bought that last box of Space Wolves off of Ebay.
> 
> Here is my understanding of how Games Workshop handles biz. GW makes their models, pack them, and distributes them to all of their own GW Stores, as well as Independent Hobby Stores, and Online Distributors (competitors). Now, GW net profit off of sales inside their stores are great, they get the models the cheapest of anyone, so there is good money there....but they can't make money if they can't sell product the because the online distributors they recently sold to has been undercutting them on price.
> 
> So I suggest, if GW would like to increase their profits AND keep player base (price hike gripe). Increase the price per unit to all Online Retailers. The OR's move more than enough product due to the modern geeks' laziness and social fears of actually leaving the house. ANYTHING to promote buying at the store level, if they can achieve that, would only help the game itself.


You're forgetting that the vast majority of GW customers don't have a nearby store. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Could you imagine a PP retail store? No, and they don't need one because between local games stores and the internet they get sales and ads. When games workshop began the internet wasn't what it is today so they needed the public face to sell and poplularize their product. That really isn't needed anymore. So they could cut their overhead by doing away with 90% of their stores and letting local hobby stores handel the brick and mortar buisness.

Doc


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

sybarite said:


> Yes l have,
> 
> l have tried many times before to figure it out, as far as l can work out its cost $2 to ship a normal size box of men to the Aus (mass ship). they then pay around $2.50 more for custom and to get the item to the store. Now from there things get hard as l can never seem to find a %100 sure cost of how much it cost them to make each box. Also l don't know how much it cost them to run a store as l am sure the rent is different in each area and so on.
> Overall it cost them "around" $6 aus dollar's to make a 10 man unit, it then cost $4.50 to get out here that's a total of $11.50 now they sell it at the store for $41.00. Now l know they got to make a profit and l have not added in the store cost but l am sure its not that high. As a side note the same unit in the USA sells for $24 US dollar's or 22 Aus dollars.
> ...


You are forgetting the 35% import duties on EACH shipment they get.
The product is classified under "toys" and therefore attracts the duty and in the amounts they are shipping, the duty free threshold is well and truly long gone ($1000AUD more or less, It can be assessed from $900 though, depending on shipping histories).


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> GW really needs some interogator chaplains to fix this fricken problem. And yes... I'm afraid there must be blood!


Indeed. And that is all I have to say on the matter, for if the Dark Angels had a new codex (not written by Ward and with some decent points and units) then I wouldn't give a shit about price increases etc.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> You're forgetting that the vast majority of GW customers don't have a nearby store. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


If GW thought that closing all the stores would save them money and allow them to drive the hobby forwards, then they would in a heart beat.

It wouldn't. In the uk there are simply not enough independent stores to allow them to do this. The hobby would shrivel and die in the uk and the company would with it.

Ps - any chance of you addressing all the points I and others have raised regarding all your other 'facts' you posted earlier?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> So what alternative would you offer? Do you think they should update all the rules at the same time and then trickle release the models over the following 5-6 years? Thats what they did in rogue trader eras and basically all anyone ever complained about was that they had all these rules and no models for them - thats a fantastic backwards step there.


They should hire enough writers and stop skimping on production so WH40K and WHFB are completely separate entities that get updated at the same time, instead of the slow frog hopping we now endure. Three years of a "finished" edition for all codices should be a bare minimum.

On to LoTR:



Maidel said:


> 1) They have a contract to pay for - they pay out each year of that contract and no one cares if they dont actually do anyting with it, they still have to pay for it.
> 
> 2) they have the hobbit films comming out in a years time - wait and watch the boom roll back in.
> 
> 3) I hate the game, I want that clear - but other people do NOT hate the game and it would be 'Epic' all over again if they just dropped it suddenly.


1) A license fee is a one-time dealio, except where they choose to pay sequentially to continuously support it. Games Workshop does not have to pay license fees if they were to cease production.

2) I'm not sure LoTR was even profitable right after the movies came out, how would the Hobbit be any different. The Hobbit and it's story doesn't even translate into a war/skirmish game at all. It's a children's story, with very little to no action. A boardgame, maybe, a wargame no.

3) How is that bad, exactly? Epic was a crutch as well.




Maidel said:


> I say this all the time - I go back to the old one and look at them and think, actually, this is no better - this WD is over half as short and has more adverts (some of them back in the early 90's had adverts for non-GW products as well!) and the back of the magasine was dedicated to 10+ pages showing the unpainted models you could buy!


Give me a break. They used to have talented writers and competent journalists trying to look for different angles on presenting their content. The current crop is all written by salesmen.



Maidel said:


> Wow - that would make sense now wouldnt it. As far as I know that other factory was closed down because it was producing more than they needed and it was easier to keep it all under 1 roof. Thanks for recommending that a major (for nottingham) employer in the UK should simply up sticks and bugger off somewhere cheaper. I hope the same happens to the companies in norway for you too. Sigh...


Patriotism has nothing to do with profit. This _does_ happen in Norway, this country is the one country in the entire world with the single highest minimum wage. Companies outsource all the time, it's natural.



Maidel said:


> Please stop quoting facts that are entirely fabricated. You categorically do NOT know what sort of resin is being used. You categorically do not know the cost of that resin and blah blah blah


This is CATEGORICALLY your most over used sales pitch as the devil's advocate here. Let me get this through to you: *Mantic managed to reduce costs and increase customer value for money in their product by switching to resin from pewter*

Then you say GW might use some other Resin that's more expensive and production intensive, well I say: THEY CHOSE TO DO SO. If Games Workshop chose a resin that could not reduce their costs, they have made the bad desicion as they were already pricing themselves out of business in the first place!



Maidel said:


> fire warrior It had a budget of 5£ and a popsickle and thusly was crap, also it's older than the hills
> dark omen Ancient history
> shadow of the horned rat Ancient history, rubbish, not even 40K
> warhammer online not 40K
> ...


I'd rather keep my discussions from now on to people who have not shut closed their minds in one way or the other.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Those poor puppies and seals. I`ll spare you the fate of the kittens though...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Im sorry - how can you say things like this with a straight face:



> I'd rather keep my discussions from now on to people who have not shut closed their minds in one way or the other


Your mind is more closed than anyone else posting on this forum - you are SO negative and SO anti GW its not even possible to squeeze a sheet of paper in there. All you are actually saying is that you only want to have a discussion with people that agree with you.

I am NOT a GW appologist - I do NOT think they get everything right - I think they treated specialist games horribly, I think the LOTRs game is an abomination that should never have been made - that does not make everything GW does wrong!




MetalHandkerchief said:


> They should hire enough writers and stop skimping on production so WH40K and WHFB are completely separate entities that get updated at the same time, instead of the slow frog hopping we now endure. Three years of a "finished" edition for all codices should be a bare minimum.


Oh great - so a company that is cutting costs and retructuring to save money to ensure that they dont go out of business should in fact be hiring more staff and releasing the products faster?

How the hell can they do that - there is finite number of talented minature sculpters out there - they cannot simply update the rules without the models - and once those models have been sculpted they have to spend all the money to make the plastic molds - what you are advocating is corporate suicide. 




> 1) A license fee is a one-time dealio, except where they choose to pay sequentially to continuously support it. Games Workshop does not have to pay license fees if they were to cease production.


You do this all the time - you make statements as facts for things that you do not have the information for. Licencing agreements can be nearly anything - a 1 off fee, a yearly fee, monthly fee, cut of profits, cut of sales - almost anything - yet you assume that the one thing you pick on is the correct one without any corroborating evidence at all.




> 2) I'm not sure LoTR was even profitable right after the movies came out, how would the Hobbit be any different. The Hobbit and it's story doesn't even translate into a war/skirmish game at all. It's a children's story, with very little to no action. A boardgame, maybe, a wargame no.


Im sorry - were you hiding under a rock for 10 years? People talk over and over about the LOTRs sales bubble - GW made absolute fortunes out of it - the problem was they expanded too fast during it and it couldnt be susstained afterwards.



> 3) How is that bad, exactly? Epic was a crutch as well.


Epic was a crutch for what? I dont understand what you are getting at here.




> fire warrior It had a budget of 5£ and a popsickle and thusly was crap, also it's older than the hills
> dark omen Ancient history
> shadow of the horned rat Ancient history, rubbish, not even 40K
> warhammer online not 40K
> ...


Sorry, where did it say it had to be 40K games? You said they only make games about space marines - well they have made ONE franchise that focused around space marines in recent years - ONE - its had add ons and a sequal - but why the hell should GW NOT produce sequels and addons for a successful franchise?





> This is CATEGORICALLY your most over used sales pitch as the devil's advocate here. Let me get this through to you: *Mantic managed to reduce costs and increase customer value for money in their product by switching to resin from pewter*
> 
> Then you say GW might use some other Resin that's more expensive and production intensive, well I say: THEY CHOSE TO DO SO. If Games Workshop chose a resin that could not reduce their costs, they have made the bad desicion as they were already pricing themselves out of business in the first place!


You hammer on an on about mantic games - and in other threads ive asked you the same questions and you didnt answer them then either.

Do you know how mantic made metal models before hand

Do you know if the cost of the metal was the deciding factor in the cost of their product

Do you know if they had automated systems before because if they were manual casting before there is no increase in the worker levels to move to resin.

Those questions go on and on, and until you answer them for both GW and manic how the hell can you say one is a good referance for the other.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I'd rather keep my discussions from now on to people who have not shut closed their minds in one way or the other.


I would think that open debate would be a good thing. It helps to get everyone thinking and participating in the discussion. If everyone just agreed the forums would be very quite....lol

:grin:
Doc


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

docgeo said:


> I would think that open debate would be a good thing. It helps to get everyone thinking and participating in the discussion. If everyone just agreed the forums would be very quite....lol
> 
> :grin:
> Doc


The problem is that everyone refuses to budge from their position. This discussion is going no where. Either quit, like I did, or buy at an increased price (sorry everyone outside of the US and EU). It's as simple as that.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> The problem is that everyone refuses to budge from their position. This discussion is going no where. Either quit, like I did, or buy at an increased price (sorry everyone outside of the US and EU). It's as simple as that.


Please do not take this as a '**** off we dont want you' - this is simply a question.

If you have 'quit' the hobby, why do you want to remain here? Or have you merely quit buying new models? In hobbies that I have 'quit' before (EG - A few sports I used to do) I have simply severed ties entirely so as to not want to come back/ feel obliged to come back.

As mentioned above this is merely a question for my curiosity, nothing more, I have no axe to grid with you, nor do I wish you to bugger off and never return.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> The Hobbit and it's story doesn't even translate into a war/skirmish game at all. It's a children's story, with very little to no action. A boardgame, maybe, a wargame no.


*cough* The Battle of Five Armies *cough*


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Please do not take this as a '**** off we dont want you' - this is simply a question.
> 
> If you have 'quit' the hobby, why do you want to remain here? Or have you merely quit buying new models? In hobbies that I have 'quit' before (EG - A few sports I used to do) I have simply severed ties entirely so as to not want to come back/ feel obliged to come back.
> 
> As mentioned above this is merely a question for my curiosity, nothing more, I have no axe to grid with you, nor do I wish you to bugger off and never return.


I enjoy the community and while I don't intend on playing any more GW games, there are other sections to this forum besides 40k and fantasy.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> I enjoy the community and while I don't intend on playing any more GW games, there are other sections to this forum besides 40k and fantasy.


Thank you - that satisifed my curiosity.

Im now off to be killed at the same time as bunch of cats.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

chromedog said:


> You are forgetting the 35% import duties on EACH shipment they get.
> The product is classified under "toys" and therefore attracts the duty and in the amounts they are shipping, the duty free threshold is well and truly long gone ($1000AUD more or less, It can be assessed from $900 though, depending on shipping histories).


where do you get the 35% from ?

The Australian Customs Service (Customs) collects GST on taxable goods imported into Australia. The GST payable is 10% of the value of the imported product. The value of the product is the sum of:
the customs value of the goods

any customs duty payable

the amount paid or payable to transport the goods to the port or airport of final destination in Australia (or the place in Australia to which goods are posted)

the insurance cost for that transport, and

any wine equalisation tax payable

an example.

An importation of goods (other than tobacco products or alcoholic beverages) valued above A$1000

Customs value (Cval) 2000.00

Customs duty (Duty) @ 5% of Cval 100.00

International transport and insurance or postage (T&I) 150.00

Value of the Taxable Importation (VoTI) (Cval+Duty+T&I) 2250.00

Goods and Services Tax (GST) @ 10% of the VoTI 225.00

Total payable Duty + GST 325.00

over all that's 16.25% tax. info here http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page5549.asp#e987

Edit: sorry for the long info l use to work near there l still have never head anyone having to pay 35% overall.


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

Hurricane said:


> @Scathainn
> 
> I really like how you complain about the complainers...then go ahead and complain some more. You also seem to be oblivious to one of the larger concerns that the player base is having by saying,
> 
> ...


If you have quit, Why are you on a warhammer Forum?


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Rathios1337 said:


> If you have quit, Why are you on a warhammer Forum?


I JUST ANSWERED THIS TWO POSTS AGO!!! By the way, there are other sections of this forum if you have not noticed; a warmachine section, painting section, news/rumors section, an off topic section, etc.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Rathios1337 said:


> If you have quit, Why are you on a warhammer Forum?


Question: Why the fuck does it matter why he is here? It is his choice and his right to be here. He contributes to the forum, hell, he even helps pay for it, considering he is a subscriber. So what is the problem with it? :nono:


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

I was simply asking why he chose to come onto the 40K section, Why is he here? Just to complain? If so he should stick to the Warmachine or the sections that he currently plays or takes an interest in. I have nothing against him, I'm just tired of people moaning constantly. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted me, or if I was unclear on my point.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Rathios1337 said:


> If so he should stick to the Warmachine or the sections that he currently plays or takes an interest in. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted me, or if I was unclear on my point.


One: He, and everyone, has the right to voice their opinions wherever they want, as long as it conforms to the rules. 

Two: T's alright. :grin:


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

When they announce a price hike, I get a tad upset, and then I feel nothing. Is that normal? Everyone seems so gunhoe about quitting over price hikes/embargoes/etc. While I see the anger is well placed in the Down Under, everything else seems pretty negligible. If we got everything we wanted (rules support, better codices, and the like) they would be forced to raise prices even higher. I could be completely making that up too - I did fail my economics class the first time around.

What bothers me the most is that their prices will likely never go down.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I am going to bitch if I feel like bitching, and complain as long as I feel like complaining for. 

Whenever somone complains you get the people who decide to jump on their high horses and rattle off a list of why you shouldn't complain, according to them. 

Doesn't that matter your hobby may have just went from barely affordable to beyond your reach. Or that now you cant even imagine a scenario in which you will be able to afford to play.

Doesn't matter this company jerks around its (mostly) loyal customers. 

Because, according to *You* we are not entitled to be upset. 

Cool Story bro.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I am going to bitch if I feel like bitching, and complain as long as I feel like complaining for.
> 
> Whenever somone complains you get the people who decide to jump on their high horses and rattle off a list of why you shouldn't complain, according to them.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: Damn straight!


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I am going to bitch if I feel like bitching, and complain as long as I feel like complaining for.
> 
> Whenever somone complains you get the people who decide to jump on their high horses and rattle off a list of why you shouldn't complain, according to them.
> 
> ...


I, for one, have no problem with people bitching about the hobby. It is the manner in which people are bitching which is so annoying. Any little speck of change that doesn't conform to one's idealized version of how GW should operate is met by, what everyone else has labeled, an ill-thought gut reaction. I think it is almost childish. "GW raises prices? Pack up your armies! F those guys!"

Is it fair? No, it isn't. The consistent price increases turn away new players and enrage old ones. I am not happy about what is happening - but what control does anyone have? Should we just quit and pout in the corner if GW doesn't submit to our every hope and dream? No, as that is irrational silly. It is likely that anyone involved in the hobby has enough spare cash to buy something every month or so (I haven't bought anything in 6 months at least). So you can't buy your 2000 point army in 3 months? Oh well. Everyone has scale back.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you can barely afford the hobby, most likely you shouldn't be in it in the first place. I think we can agree though that it shouldn't be that way. I know several people whom love the 40k setting but cannot indulge in the game itself. That just really sucks. But what else is there to do? Shall we storm the Bastille? All we will get is a form letter, or nothing, in return. So honestly, ride the train or get off. Bitching about the fare when you are already riding is pretty absurd, isn't it?

What it comes down to is this: Gas prices too high? Drive less. Warhammer is too expensive? Buy less and/or play with what you got. I am so glad that when the going gets tough, the first reaction is to jump up and down in a hysteric tantrum.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

There are a multitude of reasons that have caused discontent here that have been explained in threads throughout this forum already. For some it may just be the price rise, but many of us have gotten a sour taste in our mouths after all of GW's recent actions.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

@ tzeen

Be really careful what you say. I pointed out that people were being irrational and I went on to point out that those that decided to leave should do so with a little bit of dignity.

I was then told that I was arrogant and rude, at the same time as being called a prick.


So I'd watch out for lots of contradictory and insulting responses if I was you.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

@Tzeen, the point is. Your opinion doesn't matter to me. I don't mean to be rude. But when people are upset, they don't need a bunch of self righteous bigots telling them they shouldn't be, and why they shouldn't be.

Especially since all your "reasons" aren't facts. This isn't a clear cut math question with definitive right and wrong. So you have no place, and to be honest, no right, to impose your ideas as to why nobody should be upset, on people who are upset. 

And before somone comes back with, "Well the same goes for those people making all those complaint threads!" Nobody makes you open them. I doubt any of them have misleading titles like Know it alls come read this.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Why shouldn't he offer his reasons why people shouldn't be upset. Telling him can't do that is not different from him telling you that you that you can't be upset. You can't gave it both ways.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Why shouldn't he offer his reasons why people shouldn't be upset. Telling him can't do that is not different from him telling you that you that you can't be upset. You can't gave it both ways.


Missed the last bit huh? 

You two can go make a thread, lets call it; "lets all talk about why GW is good." 

I could care less, I am not going to come into the thread, and start flinging mud. 

But you have the audacity to make a thread, telling me what I should be feeling, and why I should be feeling it. Where do you come off?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Hang on this thread is called GW they aren't that bad.

I think you are in the wrong thread..,


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

hahahahhahaha....funny....I was just told to chill out about my contry being called terrorists but people are okay with such anger of little pieces of plastic. Not you Maidel:biggrin:

Doc


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Yes it is called that, but what was the purpose of the thread? To tell people that they are wrong in being upset. Do you actually have anything relevant to say? Because I know you cannot really say that people have no reason to be upset, let alone that its another's prerogative to tell people why they are not allowed to be upset.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Everyone's opinion is very important as long as we all respond maturely and quasi-politelyk:

Doc


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Just got the last thing I ever ordered from Wayland. I'm not too proud to admit that I sad-faced. At least I have an excuse to finish all my abandoned projects now.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> @Tzeen, the point is. Your opinion doesn't matter to me. I don't mean to be rude. But when people are upset, they don't need a bunch of self righteous bigots telling them they shouldn't be, and why they shouldn't be.
> 
> Especially since all your "reasons" aren't facts. This isn't a clear cut math question with definitive right and wrong. So you have no place, and to be honest, no right, to impose your ideas as to why nobody should be upset, on people who are upset.
> 
> And before somone comes back with, "Well the same goes for those people making all those complaint threads!" Nobody makes you open them. I doubt any of them have misleading titles like Know it alls come read this.


I don't see anywhere saying that I can't post here. I don't even see anywhere where it says that people are forcing you to read my comments.

If my opinion doesn't matter then don't read it and don't respond to it. 

You can underline, bold, and italicize your points all you want - it is still childish nonsense. So many other companies do the same thing, but the only reason GW gets flak is because of their prices. That is the bottom line. If one box of Speiss Marinez costed $10 USD instead of $35 or $45 USD, people wouldn't complain nearly as much as they do. They wouldn't care about legal blunders, embargoes, and the like.

I guess my real problem is seeing people turned away from a game they love because of corporate idiocy. So I do apologize if I have offended anyone. I have said my peace and now I am done. My sincerest apologies.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Yes it is called that, but what was the purpose of the thread? To tell people that they are wrong in being upset. Do you actually have anything relevant to say? Because I know you cannot really say that people have no reason to be upset, let alone that its another's prerogative to tell people why they are not allowed to be upset.


Im sorry - I could simply be petty here and ask you the same question because nothing you have said is actually ontopic... But I wont do that 


You cannot come into a thread, tell people what they cannot say at the same time as telling them that the thing they cannot say is that they cannot say what someone else should not say. (PHEW....) Thats called 'the kettle calling the pot' Or, being hypocritical.

I dont care what people want to say - they can moan and whine and complain all they like - some complaints I will agree with, some I wont - hell I might even have some complaints that others dont agree with.

Thing is, there is utterly nothing to say that I can only agree with the topic at hand - I am more than free to disagree with it - this is, after all, a discussion forum. At the same time as disagreeing with people I am also quite free (as are you) to point out when another person is being irrational - which is basically what I have said all along.

It is utterly irrational to pack up a hobby you (I dont know if this part directly applies to you or not) have spent a lot of money on, because of the cost of the products that are yet to be sold. It is even more irrational to then get rid of all the stuff you already have, because the price of items you have no obligation to buy are also going up. This hobby is great because it litterally has endless value for money - you buy something, you paint it, you can use it for as long as you want.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Im sorry - I could simply be petty here and ask you the same question because nothing you have said is actually ontopic... But I wont do that
> 
> 
> You cannot come into a thread, tell people what they cannot say at the same time as telling them that the thing they cannot say is that they cannot say what someone else should not say. (PHEW....) Thats called 'the kettle calling the pot' Or, being hypocritical.
> ...


There you go again, applying logic to this argument.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> There you go again, applying logic to this argument.


I cant help myself - the world is a logical place - its just the people in it that are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. 


And it only took 1 post and 20 minutes to get it


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Men In Black

I demand cookies!


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

@Hurricane- I thought you quit the hobby..why are you stealing my rep:laugh:

JK,

Doc


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

This thread was really just designed to try and get people to put things in perspective.

Yes the price increase sucks, but 100 threads (not literally) saying how GW are evil and should be boycotted is a bit extreme IMO.

Yes people have a right to complain, yes they can stop buying GW products ... but this isn't the first ever price increase, and whilst the models are expensive, I'll still standby my assertion that they are not priced so high no-one can afford them.

What has perhaps happened is that people can no longer buy lots and lots of things at once.

My OPINION, (just mine) is that no-one should quit the hobby over a price increase, especially when there are ways to get models cheaper, such as Ebay, or people being kind enough to ship models to various countries privately etc etc.

But hey, thats just my opinion after all. People can do what they like.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Perhaps for some the price increase is the final straw, but for many others that is one of many reasons they are leaving the company. Just check out the news section for all the different announcements that have people upset. Also of note is that perhaps many of GW's recent actions are justified from a business perspective; their first and foremost goal of course being to make money. Yet people become emotionally involved in their hobbies, so when GW makes all these announcements people (including myself) do feel somewhat disgusted and betrayed.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I know what you mean Hurricane, but you better suck it up, we're not allowed to feel that way.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I think people forget that GW is a business first and a pleaser second.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I think people forget that GW is a business first and a pleaser second.


Editing out what I said before because of poor reading comprehension. I agree that many people do forget this is a business, but in the end that is irrelevant. These shifts can be justified, but all we care about is the bottom line.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I know what you mean Hurricane, but you better suck it up, we're not allowed to feel that way.


You are allowed to feel that way, in the same way that others are allowed not to feel that way. I am not emotionally invested in this hobby, and if the models were priced out of my reach I would still read BL published books as I enjoy the setting.

If people want to out and out quit the hobby (sell all GW product they own and never touch anything by them ever again) thats ok. Some of us feel it's a drastic step to take when there is nothing forcing you to purchase new models on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> Yet people become emotionally involved in their hobbies, so when GW makes all these announcements people (including myself) do feel somewhat disgusted and betrayed.





Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I know what you mean Hurricane, but you better suck it up, we're not allowed to feel that way.


The thing is you can FEEL however you like - you can also tell others how you feel - but they are free to tell you that they disagree with how you feel.

Whats so difficult to understand about that?

I can say that I 'feel' the game is under priced and it needs a price rise. Everyone will then pile in and say what a douche bag I am. Thats the point - if someone says something you disagree with you either say nothing, or say why you think that is wrong.

If you dont want people disagreeing with you, dont post it up in a thread for the world to see and read.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I've never said that I don't want people disagreeing with me and I've repeatedly stated that this is not a logic issue for many, but instead an emotional one.

I don't see why it is so difficult for you to understand that justifying GW's actions through logic does not change how people FEEL. I will continue posting how I feel and others are fine to disagree; I didn't expect anything else from a public forum.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> I've never said that I don't want people disagreeing with me and I've repeatedly stated that this is not a logic issue for many, but instead an emotional one.
> 
> I don't see why it is so difficult for you to understand that justifying GW's actions through logic does not change how people FEEL. I will continue posting how I feel and others are fine to disagree; I didn't expect anything else from a public forum.


Yea sorry, that part of the comment was more aimed at lord sven.

As for answering why I think logic might change peoples minds - well it has changed some peoples minds - there are some people posting now with very different views to a few days ago, although I can not draw a direct link to my own posts providing that change of heart.

I just think logic SHOULD work for everyone - everything I do I try to do logically, sure I still get annoyed when I drop a hammer on my foot, sure I still swear at the hammer, but I dont then pick up the hammer and throw it out of the window cursing it and refusing to ever use it again, because I know that logically the hammer didnt do anything, its just a tool.

So I suppose my lack of understanding is from the fact that I simply dont understand why a logical argument doesnt sway other peoples opinion - I will base my opinions on facts and the best logical argument - so I will change my position if someone provides me with new information and facts.

Therefore, to put that into this context, if someone can provide me with evidence that GW are in fact killing kittens and puppies, then I will change my mind and boycott them, or less ridiculously, if someone could provide me with evidence that GW are raising prices purely because they are greedy and in fact they have no need of the additional money because they are all already stinking rich, then again I will change my position.

However it is clear than many people do not subscribe to my logical standpoint.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

gw also sells to canadian hobby stores for an outlandish price dispite the fact that our dollar is getting stronger other companies like wizards and comicbook providers are not screwing us like they are

GW is only hurting themselves by doing this


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

*Day 10:* I can't stop shivering. I'm cold all over, but boiling hot at the same time. The blanket wrapped around me is drenched in sweat, and I've vomited 3 times since I woke up.

I caught sight of a laptop connected to the internet and it took 3 of my mates to wrestle me away from it. Luckily the pulled me away before I got to the checkout page. I begged them, screamed at them and cried like a child, before passing out.

Maybe tomorrow will be easier.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I think people forget that GW is a business first and a pleaser second.


Well considering they are a "hobby" buisness they better work a little on pleasing or they won't have a buisness:biggrin:

Doc


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