# The grey knights are massing!



## The Fall (Aug 30, 2009)

well heres an interesting problem


an army that is made of pure grey knight troops and termies

20 knights
30 termies
1 brother captain stern

with my space marine army i tries to exploit there rubbish wepons (only wepons in the army are storm bolters and incinerators) so i went for drednoughts and bikes to out manuver and over power, but massed storm bolter fire ate my bikes up like popcorn. and 'the shrouding' rule stopped my pikking them off with las cannons


how do i take them down without getting into close combat (aka death)


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Dreadnaughts are a decent way of playing them, as are all vehicles.

Personally if I was feeling truly evil I would run heavy on vindicators, dreadnaughts (with plasma cannons) and tac marines in rhinos (with plasmaguns and flamers).

Dont be scared to get in close or even getting into close combat (especially with dreadnaughts). The problem with grey knights is that they are all really expensive: an army of 100% knights is going to be very small and elite... if you throw nothing but cheap units at them they'll have no chance.

BIggest thing is to remember what the nemesis force weapons do on the different units- they are just S6 on normal knights, S6 power weapons on justicars and termies and are actually full force weapons on the characters... so if you can get a termy unit or mebbe even assault marines to charge into the basic troops (or fast attack) then they'll die just like other things/ Keep the plasma for the termies (at 55+pls they are really expensive versions of your own termies but I4 S6 instead).


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The key thing is that he has really quite a lot of infantry, all with at least a 3+ save and fearless. That isn't particularly easy to remove. Also, Grey knights can more than hold their own in a shooting match against marines, and beat them in cc as well.

Ironclad dreads are one option. Howevever, they won't kill the GKs very fast and cost a lot. They are good tar pits unless the termies have a few thunder hammers in the units. If they do have them, there's really no point in you being anywhere near them.

I'd personally be looking at vindicators. Those big squads are pretty vulnerable to pie plates and don't get their armour saves. Their guns can't hurt the vindicator's front armour, though you obviously want to stay well clear of CC. A couple of vindicators would really even the balance.

Pie plates don't tend to be great for wiping out squads though ,so you do want some conventional dakka guns. This might be where your tactical squads can disembark from their rhinos and spray bolter fire at stuff. Best still to stay the hell away from the termies though, or bring back up from ironclads.

Basically then, hit them with demolisher cannons, then clean up with other guys to make sure the whole squad is gone.


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## The Fall (Aug 30, 2009)

thanks guys, vidicators looking good at the moment, ill try a few of the tactics out next match


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I would also suggest Whirlwinds, basically anything artillery based keep out of medium range since in my experience thats where Grey Knights excel. 
However don't be too scared of CQC especially if you can get a squad of assault terminators in there. 

Depending on which marine army you are playing I would also suggest either the Death Company or Worlf Guard. I've seen both special units chew through GK characters.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Wolf Guard can chew through anything if you set them up right, but I would say that using them against GKs is probably not the best idea (though giving them all combi-plasmas wolf pelts and power weapons will kill elite MEQ/TEQs easily enough, though at 48pts each they'll be VERY expensive).
- if you are taking wolf guard bodyguards then take some fenrisians too: the WGBL (or other HQ) should be having 6-7A at S5 I5, the wolf guard kill any remaining guys and return hits take out a 12pt wolf (this is how I build my termy units: AP2 weapons hit a wolf, AP3+ weapons hit a rerollable 2+ save).


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## maniclurker (Jun 12, 2008)

TH/SS termies will bend them over.


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

... AV14 vehicles? I mean... I don't think he has anything that can counter AV14. At all.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

maniclurker said:


> TH/SS termies will bend them over.


Actually their Terminators will win. Ever time I've seen Grey Knight Terminators go against TH/SS the Grey Knight Terminators always win.


Sqwerlpunk said:


> ... AV14 vehicles? I mean... I don't think he has anything that can counter AV14. At all.


Their Justicars and characters can take Melta bombs or hammerhead which gives them a counter to AV14.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

TH/SS wont beat GK termies: ~15A at S6 and I4-5 should kill about 3 termies before they get to attack, a unit of 5 TH/SS would only kill about 1 GK in return.


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't see how 5 TH/SS termies would kill only one GK a turn.

10 attacks (15 if on the charge), assuming all get to strike, 5 (or 7-8) hit, of which, you should get 4-5 (or 6-7) wounds, which ignore armor.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Let say neither side charge and each side has 5 Terimantors.
Grey Knights Strike First, they get 11 attacks, they hits on 3 meaning 7.3 hits. Then they wound on 2's which means about 6 wounds which you will fail about 2 saves. You get 6 attacks back which hits on 4 meaning only 3 will hit and then you should kill about 2 of them. So it's a tie but if you continue it the Grey Knights will win. The main thing to remeber is Grey Knight Terminators strike first, hit on 3' and wound on 2's. On top of that they can cast Holocaust twice (one from the squad and one from the brother captain) dealing additional wounds.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Sqwerlpunk said:


> I don't see how 5 TH/SS termies would kill only one GK a turn.
> 
> 10 attacks (15 if on the charge), assuming all get to strike, 5 (or 7-8) hit, of which, you should get 4-5 (or 6-7) wounds, which ignore armor.


"assuming they get to strike" is the massive problem with this thinking... yes, if the GKs miss all of their attacks you will win (obviously). TH/SS will kill 2.8-4.1 GK termies a turn if charged/charging IF they all get to hit.

If the GK charge you then you should lose about 2.9 termies (so 3 normally- plus 0.55 from shooting) and get 4A back, which would kill 1.1 GK termies (so 1 normally)... in the second turn you would be lucky to get any attacks back at all

If the SM termies charge then ~2 will die, the rest will kill ~2.5.... then the GKs are likely to win in the subsequent turns.


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## maniclurker (Jun 12, 2008)

@Tim/Steve:
Well, I guess if you always favor the GK with the charge, then they win. Maybe. There's also the 'stacking multiple wounds on the serg' factor. Regardless, the real statistics are as follows (we are going to use 5 man squads):

GK charging:

Turn 1-
GKs charge and kill 2.7778 or 1.7778, depending on whether the serg catches and extra wound. I don't feel like computing what they overall kills would be when factoring that in.
TH/SS termies swing back, killing 1.2345 or 1.7901, depending on whether the serg caught the extra wound. The TH/SS termies may come out on top if the serg catches the extra wound, but they'll eventually lose combat, but they'll just make the GK pay for it more.

Turn 2-
GKs swing first, killing 1.6735. I'm not going to bother with factoring in the 'serg catches 2 wounds' fluke from last turn, or apply it here, as it doesn't matter.
TH/SS termies kill 0.3048 in return.


TH/SS termies charge:

Turn 1-
GKs swing first, killing 1.8518. Nowhere near as much as them charging.
TH/SS termies kill 2.6235. Looks like someones ahead...

Turn 2-
GKs swing first, killing 0.8801
TH/SS termies kill 1.2600

Turn 3-
GKs swing first, killing 0.4135
TH/SS termies kill 1.0303... The GK termies are all dead.

Conclusion... whoever charges wins. However, TH/SS termies are far cheaper... a additional factor that needs considering.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well for a start that piece of math hammer is just plain WRONG.
The chances of having 2 fails on the sgt is FRACTIONAL- GKscharging will cause an average of 8.9 wounds. You need the 2 allocated to the sgt both to fail to gain any advantage- for the massive average reduction of 0.11 wounds for the first turn (chance of failing 1st*chance of failing 2nd= 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9=0.1111.)- I guess the sgt being there really doesnt make much difference (seeing as he is identical in equipment and stats its a dodgy one to even claim anyway, if he isnt modelled any differently not many would allow 'allocating' wounds to him).
- you also forget that the GKs have a sgt: the brother captain.


GKs on the charge should cause 8.9 wounds... which means the sgt can have 2, leaving 6.9 for the unit. Total average failed is 2.96 with 0.11 chance of the sgt failing 2 saves- for an average loss of 2.85.
SM does an average of 1.2W back.. losing by 1.6 (and having about a 33% chance of breaking- not realy important unless the GKs just consolidate up behind them and shepard them off the board).

SMs on the charge get hit by 11A, causing 6.11 wounds, again 2 on the sgt reduces the average total taken by 0.11 leaving 1.93 fails. SM termies kill 2.56 GKs. 
2nd turn the GK sgt shoouldnt have taken a save so 5.88 attacks do an average of 3.27wounds, the SM sgt has a 44% chance of still being alive so the average reduction from allocating him wounds is now <0.048 (you might not take enough wounds to allocate 2) meaning the SMs lose another 1.04 termies. SMs kill 1.12 in return... the SMs should eventually beat the GKs but it's getting pretty damn tight as to which side comes out on top.


So GKs charge- they win convincingly. SMs charge- they might win but its pretty much a draw (they'll certainly have less then '1' surviving SM termy for pure mathhammer results when the GKs hit 0.. meaning the GKs will win a fair proportion of the fights- probably something like 20-30%).

Yes the same GK unit costs 245pts, 45 more then the TH/SS but since we ignore any effects of shooting and psychic powers it's a pretty even trade.
- if your tactics are good and you can nearly guarentee the TH/SS will get the charge then they are an adequate counter... if you think there is a chance you'll let the GKs shoot you for multiple turns or that they might get the charge then the TH/SS are just not gonna work for you.


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

Hm, well, I see the Mathhammer now. I was also assuming I had Vulkan riding shotgun in my head, since I nearly always take him, haha


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's clear anyway that assault termies aren't particularly great at fighting GK termies. Guns are pretty good though. Just being in a rhino so that the termies can barely hurt you at all is also good.

Occasionally, I do see suggestions to try and beat khorne berzerkers in cc, out-shoot Tau and so on. This is the wrong approach in my opinion. If somebody has 30 terminators and you don't, invest in AP2 guns.


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## Lord Cornilius (Nov 20, 2008)

Sqwerlpunk said:


> I don't see how 5 TH/SS termies would kill only one GK a turn.
> 
> 10 attacks (15 if on the charge), assuming all get to strike, 5 (or 7-8) hit, of which, you should get 4-5 (or 6-7) wounds, which ignore armor.


Because the GKT strike first and remove 3 terms which leaves on 2 striking back. Remember, GKT are hitting on 3's with WS5. 

Of course he who charges has a big advantage.


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