# Are Eldar Flyers Competitive?



## Dildozer (Sep 27, 2013)

hey guys, so Ive recently began thinking about the place our flyers have in competitive lists. Ive never been a big "tournament" guy but i have heard peoples opinions on our two flyers. im basically wondering a few things
A. what do you think of our flyers considering the heavy saturation of ADL's out there
B. Ive seen 0 lists with a hemlock wraith fighter in them and even though i am unimpressed with the model's rules im wondering if anyone has used one or knows someone who has had success with one. 
C. is the crimson hunter good for its cost? Ive been wondering a lot about this recently because even though it can kill flyers very quickly unless you can kill the opponents ADL before it comes in its going to be destroyed. 
D. is the crimson hunter exarch worth the 20 points? i would argue that it is based on how my dice seem to roll but that's just me. 
E. how does our flyer rank up with other flyers in warhammer 40k? just curious on this one.

feel free to answer any of these questions or all of them. general comments on the flyers or anything related would also be apprecitated for discussion.


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

I have also yet to see a hemlock in use or in a posted army list, although I think it may have place in the scary spirit council+Farseer army (with horrify and psychic shriek). Otherwise it's just too overpriced imo. It's weapon/ability range also seems pretty small for a flyer, vector dancer only goes so far... although I've only played a couple games with a flyer, so maybe I'm just bad at maneuvering them 

The Crimson hunter is solid, and I think the exarch upgrade is very worth it. A lot of people will say it's pointless to bring only 1 because of intercept being so prevalent, but to me you just have to make the ADL gun a higher priority target... Again, I haven't played enough games to have an opinion on that myself, I'm just passing on theorycrafting plus lots of forum time!


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Remember that you're not just thinking about a single unit. You're thinking about an army. Yes, an Aegis might be an issue, with its anti-air firepower, but Eldar also get the Autarch. If he's in your army, you can actually use his rules to _delay_ your fliers so that you have time to utterly destroy whatever squad is hiding behind the wall. 

As for the Crimson Hunter itself, the fighter is good, but it's great with the Exarch. It has four shots capable of basically blowing up anything (alright, only 2 against a land raider), and only misses on a 1. Even without the skills, it's worth it. If you know you're going to be up against, say, Deathwing, then it might be worth even flipping over to the starcannons for more AP2. Then you can even add the Marksman's Eye to really have some fun with it.


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## Dildozer (Sep 27, 2013)

hmmm... i mean the quad gun should not be that hard to kill but remember that even if you buy the autarch its still only a 50% chance that you will be able to delay the flyer. i think autarchs have their place in heavy reserve lists but i cant seem to justify using one when im not consistently putting more than 3 units in reserve.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Well, to be fair, usually you don't actually want your reserves to not come in; so it would allow 3s to not count. Or allow them to arrive on 2s. If you ran two Autarchs, then 4s would keep them out if you wanted. Personally I like running Saim Hann, so an Autarch on a bike is pretty much stock.

On the other hand, the arguments that you're listing for the Aegis are the same for every army that uses a flier, so asking about it in an Eldar List is kind of moot. The Autarch gives it a better chance of survivability than, say, Space Marines.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

IMO the exarch skills are wasted on a CH. I have never needed any of them but the exarch upgrade is still pretty handy for it relieves your Farseer to cast guide on something else


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've always run mine as standard. 160pts is expensive enough without adding to it, and since Guide is 24" range with the option for a Jetbike to be taken then you ought to be in range if you need it most of the time.

I would have to say that they're mediocre, to be honest. You're gambling that:

1. You can destroy their Quad by turn 2.
2. Your flyer comes on after their flyers.
3. They don't have any Skyfire apart from the Quad.

And you're spending more points than a Wave Serpent for less overall firepower. In most situations I think I'd rather take other units to perform the same role, such as Walkers, Prisms and Wraithknights.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I've always found forgeworld fliers to be far more fun.
The nightwing while only having 2hp has a 2+ jink. It also has 2 brightlances and 2 shurikien cannon and is less than 150pts.
My Phoenix Bomber has 2 st5 ap3 heavy 3 missile launchers, 2 shuriken cannons and a pulse laser with a 3+ evade and is about 220pts (iirc - been a while since I've played my eldar)

Nightwings are great for distracting enemy fliers/anti air and the phoenix will quietly fly round and mop marines up.

So one comes in cheaper than the codex flier but is less anti tank and one is a bit more but is a lot more dangerous to marines. I prefer either over the codex fliers, which is a shame as I really like the idea of the hemlock, I just don't like that it cant cast it's power on the turn it arrives and compared to the fliers I have, it'll die so much faster.
It's also worth noting that the FW fliers haven't been faq'd to get bladestorm yet.


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## Dugong (Apr 13, 2008)

From what I've seen the CH whist uncommon, has appeared in competetive lists. My guess is because of its ability to quickly deal with enemy fliers the turn it arrives, just don't expect it to last any longer.

On the other hand it makes a decent MC hunter, going after Tyranic MC's, Dreadknights, Wraithknights and Riptides (if they don't have skyfire), but removing the opponents anti-air is key, 160 points is a lot for 1 turn of shooting. I guess this is why you don't see it much in competitive lists since most will pack significant anti-air, casual however tends to be very light AA in comparison.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Hemlock has a place in a weird list based on Illic Nightspear, Farseer taking Telepathy, maxed Rangers, Hemlocks, and allied Guard with a Psyker Battle Squad; designed to make the enemy take as many Pinning and Morale checks as possible.

But no, they're pretty bad. They're simply too fragile.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

If only we could buy them Holo-Fields!


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## Dugong (Apr 13, 2008)

Moriouce said:


> If only we could buy them Holo-Fields!


Even then people wouldn't take it, you only get the save if you evade, forcing all of your shots next turn to be snap shots. If say we had say a constant 5+ cover save like the Skimmer special rule and put holo fields on top of that, it might be worthwhile (tau still laugh at it though). This is partly why the AV 12 5++ with IWND Helldrakes were auto includes, they were super durable.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dugong said:


> This is partly why the AV 12 5++ with IWND Helldrakes were auto includes, they were super durable.


Why the past tense? Heldrakes are still the best individual unit in 40k :victory:

The Nightwing from Forge World is nice. Same fragility problem, but permanent 5+ save from Shrouded with a 2+ when it Evades, and has essentially the same loadout as the Hunter.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Why the past tense? Heldrakes are still the best individual unit in 40k :victory:


Obviously is dependant on role. It is, for example, a terrible scoring unit. :laugh: And it's mediocre-to-poor versus MCs and Heavy Tanks and even cheap hordes. However if you're looking to murderate MEQs and Chimeras, look no further!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Obviously is dependant on role. It is, for example, a terrible scoring unit. :laugh: And it's mediocre-to-poor versus MCs and Heavy Tanks and even cheap hordes. However if you're looking to murderate MEQs and Chimeras, look no further!


I was referring more to the fact that it is entirely independant (hell, it can sustain an entire Codex with no support) and can attack (and be good against) so many targets, but yeah - if you want to kill Land Raiders, then Warrior Acolytes or Fire Dragons are probably the droids you're looking for


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

You Eldar players (both Eldar and Dark Eldar) have so many Skimmer craft already that using the term "Fliers" for them seems habitual. As far as their effectiveness I;'ve seen mixed results, but the idea that their competative is like saying two pink muffins are competative in a cooking contest.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> You Eldar players (both Eldar and Dark Eldar) have so many Skimmer craft already that using the term "Fliers" for them seems habitual. As far as their effectiveness I;'ve seen mixed results, but the idea that their competative is like saying two pink muffins are competative in a cooking contest.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> You Eldar players (both Eldar and Dark Eldar) have so many Skimmer craft already that using the term "Fliers" for them seems habitual. As far as their effectiveness I;'ve seen mixed results, but the idea that their competative is like saying two pink muffins are competative in a cooking contest.


2 pink muffins would be competative in a cooking contest. If it was a pink muffin baking contest. :so_happy:

Forgeworld fliers are good, the codex ones are good for a turn. And we can change the odds of which turn by bringing an autarch.
You non eldar players (both not eldar and not dark eldar) have so many more fliers that using the term fliers seems to have been invented by 6th edition and is a habitual (for 18ish months now) use of the term as added by the 6th edition rulebook...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> You non eldar players (both not eldar and not dark eldar) have so many more fliers that using the term fliers seems to have been invented by 6th edition and is a habitual (for 18ish months now) use of the term as added by the 6th edition rulebook...


Well nobody ran Flyers before 6th because they were Apocalypse only... :scratchhead:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Yeah, I was just making a counter non-point to the post I quoted :grin:


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Pink Muffins are way OP and only WAAC players use them. Using two even more so.

(substitute "Pink Muffins" for whatever unit you hate.)

I'm thinking of using a CH in an upcoming tourney. With Exarch as the only upgrade. I need some anti-air for my list which comprises mainly of very shooty stuff.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> Pink Muffins are way OP and only WAAC players use them. Using two even more so.
> 
> (substitute "Pink Muffins" for whatever unit you hate.)
> 
> I'm thinking of using a CH in an upcoming tourney. With Exarch as the only upgrade. I need some anti-air for my list which comprises mainly of very shooty stuff.


Omg how dare u ues Edlar, they're so op, Wave Serpents are invincible and kill every unit ever in 1 shot, you should feel terrible


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I've always run mine as standard. 160pts is expensive enough without adding to it, and since Guide is 24" range with the option for a Jetbike to be taken then you ought to be in range if you need it most of the time.
> 
> I would have to say that they're mediocre, to be honest. You're *gambling* that:
> 
> ...


1: Dark Reapers
2: Go second
3: Dark Reapers

Edit: Dark Reapers with Ignores Cover (however you want to get it) Clearly the Reaper Rangefinders make a mockery of the Jink rule allowing you to kill enemy serpents unaided.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

1. I don't understand how you think S5 missiles sufficiently answer T7.

2. "Go second" is only a choice you get to make 50% of the time. Even if you do make the choice, they have a 33% (or 50%, if they have special rules) chance for each Flyer to not arrive. For every 33% chance they make, you have a 66% chance of arriving before them. I would call that a gamble.

3. I don't understand how you think Dark Reapers are a good answer to Skyfire/Interceptor units given that the strongest one in the game is probably Broadsides with a utility commander, who are T5 2W and 2+ Sv. Other Skyfire units include mainly other Flyers (which Reapers can't hit or Pen) or... AV14 buildings with emplacements?

The only Skyfire option Reapers would seem to answer would be Devs with Flakks, and who takes those?

I suppose you could be implying taking the S8 upgrade, but then you're spending 38pts per model for a T3 1W 3+ Sv guy with a Krak Missile, which is terrible in and of itself, and there is no way to ignore cover with them apart from Jinks.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> 1. I don't understand how you think S5 missiles sufficiently answer T7.
> 
> 2. "Go second" is only a choice you get to make 50% of the time. Even if you do make the choice, they have a 33% (or 50%, if they have special rules) chance for each Flyer to not arrive. For every 33% chance they make, you have a 66% chance of arriving before them. I would call that a gamble.
> 
> ...


The Str 8 handles everything your talking about, points cost or no. With a Farseer and Perfect Timing or a Tau Commander and a Sensor Suite you can kill Quad guns and their like without any resistance, most other AA options are AV 10 or AV 11 meaning Str 8 will punch through it. Even other Flyers will get hit simply by twin linking the weapons again with a Farseer or a Commander.

Its 38 points sure, but its 38 points that is going to be very versatile and can win you games. Only certain units like a Riptide are a problem, and that's mostly because of the JsJ rather than the 2+ armor.

Going second 50% of the time is not quite right. Among other things you can alter your rolls to see who goes first or seizes, you can (as an eldar player) have a 2+ to seize if you really want too. If you are worried about going first one Selection of Void Shields can protect any flyers who enter their territory or you can fly them behind LOS blocking terrain or behind terrain that provides a nice save like a Ruin or a Landing Pad.

Really you have a lot of options, but worrying over one T7 2W model or one Stalker, or a TAC squad with Flakk shouldn't prevent you from taking some Hunters as Dark Reapers handle nearly everything. Heck with Tank Hunters you can even bring down a AV 14 building fairly reliably with 9-11 Krak Missiles (twin linking of course)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

No.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Maybe?


Well grab 9-11 dice, roll them once, then roll any non 6's once again. If you like you can shoot the building before hand with a lance or something to improve your odds.

Edit: I say 9 because I like to take my aspect squads in 8 man units and in the above squad 9 shots would include Fast Shot, 11 would be if you took 10 Models (that's really expensive though)


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Ragewind said:


> The Str 8 handles everything your talking about, points cost or no.


Well gee, a squadron of Russes would handle all of it as well, it doesn't mean it's efficient or good.



Ragewind said:


> With a Farseer and Perfect Timing


So a 100pt model rolling 3 times for a 1-in-6 chance, attached to an 8 man unit costing 300pts plus Exarch plus toys, plus any fortifications you might have bought for them to camp in? Reliable? No. Points effective? Hell no.



Ragewind said:


> or a Tau Commander and a Sensor Suite you can kill Quad guns and their like without any resistance


More reliable than the Farseer, but 105pts (assuming no other systems or weapons) and requires you to ally in Tau.



Ragewind said:


> most other AA options are AV 10 or AV 11 meaning Str 8 will punch through it.


What other AA options? How many are going to be in range and LoS of the Reapers? How many of your Reapers are going to be alive?



Ragewind said:


> Even other Flyers will get hit simply by twin linking the weapons again with a Farseer or a Commander.


Only if you have a large unit of Reapers. A unit of 3 only inflicts a single hit on average when Twin Linked, so a unit of 6 averages two hits or so, with negligible AP values against AV12/11 vehicles with 2-4 HPs.



Ragewind said:


> Its 38 points sure, but its 38 points that is going to be very versatile and can win you games.


If your opponent can't handle >10 models that cost over 400pts for T3 and a 3+ for protection, they're shit opponents. Sorry.



Ragewind said:


> Only certain units like a Riptide are a problem, and that's mostly because of the JsJ rather than the 2+ armor.


Are you joking? 10 S8 shots nets you 7 hits without twin linking, 6 wounds, and 1 failed save. A Riptide can tank that shit all day in the open while blasting back with BS5 cover ignoring pie plates of AP2 death. And that's only a 185pt model versus your 300pts.



Ragewind said:


> Going second 50% of the time is not quite right. Among other things you can alter your rolls to see who goes first or seizes, you can (as an eldar player) have a 2+ to seize if you really want too. If you are worried about going first one Selection of Void Shields can protect any flyers who enter their territory or you can fly them behind LOS blocking terrain or behind terrain that provides a nice save like a Ruin or a Landing Pad.


If you spend even MORE points just to alter that dice roll, or ally in even more armies completely unrelated. Void Shields apply IF you're playing Escalation (I don't know anyone who does, certainly most tournaments won't). Ruins are certainly a useful thing to be behind, but you can't always guarantee there will be some on the table tall enough to matter, you're sacrificing your own fire arcs to do so, and restricting your own movement phases.



Ragewind said:


> Really you have a lot of options, but worrying over one T7 2W model or one Stalker, or a TAC squad with Flakk shouldn't prevent you from taking some Hunters as Dark Reapers handle nearly everything. Heck with Tank Hunters you can even bring down a AV 14 building fairly reliably with 9-11 Krak Missiles (twin linking of course)


If a unit that statistically loses a near 40pt model for roughly every 6 boltguns that are fired at it (not even 6 hits, 6 SHOTS) is handling "nearly everything" then you really need to get out and play more opponents. Like, really. They don't even have Interceptor, so the first Heldrake you come across is going to wipe 75% of your unit out on the first pass.

Bear in mind that all of this is in defence of a 160pt Flyer with AV10 and 2HP that only puts out 4 S8 AP2 shots. You can take a Falcon with a Bright Lance (one of the most choices in the codex) for cheaper, it shoots from T1, and has a 3+ save behind a ruin or 4+ in the open, AV12 and 3HP, and can transport a scoring unit. You can take Hornets from FW that have paired Pulse Lasers for sub-100pts per model in squadrons.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Such hostility Sethis, much Wow.

I don't have time to reply in depth atm, ill try and check in tomorrow morning with some answers for you.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Hostility?

Point out to me where I've insulted you in any way, and I'll sincerely apologise. 

I think I insulted the caliber of your opponents twice, but not you!

Oh, and I also rather thoroughly panned Dark Reapers, but I hope you won't take that personally. :good:


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Hostility?
> 
> Point out to me where I've insulted you in any way, and I'll sincerely apologise.
> 
> ...


Looks lets take a step and see what the original question was. Are Crimson Hunters competitive? My answer is "Maybe" (the Wraith Flyers are clearly not)

IF you spend points to baby them, IF you counter the normal threats, then yes. They will own the skys and only ON OCCASION get shot down by rapid firing Tau. For example a Hunter Exarch (which you should never take) is great at killing enemy MC's with some Star Cannons.

IF you don't spend the points required to fit them into your lists they will literately crash and burn, in this case the "points required" vary from list to list and player to player.

If you are going to spend 300 points on a Wraithknight, then you can 300 spend points on a 8 man Reaper unit with Krakk upgrades instead. Nothing else in the Eldar codex can handle the wide variety of threats that an Eldar player faces on average these days. While the new Nid book is not exactly a power house I remind you 9-11 Krakk missiles (hopefully with Twin Link and Monster Hunter) is excellent in taking out a three man Fex unit, AND can kill opposing Wraithknights quickly etc etc.

While you don't seem to like the idea of taking Tau as allys, especially if the Commander is just providing buffs...like a farseer, you cannot deny the reliability of Ignore Cover and such. In this situation you don't HAVE to take one, but when you fight against someone who does and they wipe unit after unit without providing a save its going to feel frustrating.

As my signature clearly suggests "The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable"
Taking one or two Reapers units can be expensive and they CAN die easily, when you throw the weight of the remaining army behind it however then everything, even Shinning Spears, shine.

I also HIGHLY recommend taking some sort of defensive fortification, in this specific case of Crimson Hunters, Void Shields will protect your flyers if you but fly them in the bubble. For a measly 100 points (the cost of a Defense Line+Quad) you are stopping all but the most dedicated AA options. If you are feeling frisky you can pump even more points and basically make them (and everything else under the shields) immune to ranged firepower.

While you very clearly do not have to take Reapers, IF you are taking Crimson Hunters and want to make the most of them, I *highly recommend* taking at least one unit of them to make them Competitive. Otherwise (as you pointed out) without some favorable terrain its going to be rough keeping them alive.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm afraid I don't really see how taking one mediocre unit to support another mediocre unit to the tune of ~500pts non scoring models is a good idea. Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Sethis said:


> I'm afraid I don't really see how taking one mediocre unit to support another mediocre unit to the tune of ~500pts non scoring models is a good idea. Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.


What would you do then to keep at least 1 of 3 flyers alive by turn 5? If your not taking Hunters then you will need to look to allies to take care of AA.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ragewind said:


> If your not taking Hunters then you will need to look to allies to take care of AA.


Exactly - bring Tau, because, well, at least you'll be running something original :headbutt:



Sethis said:


> Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.


So why Wraithknights? They're a mediocre unit, but you tend to rate those. Not being confrontational, just curious


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't take Wraithknights - I don't know how they entered the discussion at all? I still believe that Knights are a "reasonable but not OP" choice, despite all the apparant bitching and whining about them.

Frankly I don't run serious AA, and never have. I find wiping out the entirity of my enemies Troops while keeping at least one unit of mine alive til T5 serves to win me games while ignoring anything in the sky.

That 400+pts of Reapers buys me two more Guardians/Avengers+Serpents that are a million times more survivable, kick out equivalent firepower, and do so while moving 6-12" per turn and capping objectives instead of being stuck behind a wall.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I don't take Wraithknights - I don't know how they entered the discussion at all? I still believe that Knights are a "reasonable but not OP" choice, despite all the apparant bitching and whining about them.


It was a response to your 'Don't take mediocre units' comment - I admit, not entirely relevant, but I've been wanting to know the big appeal of Wraithknights for a while and tried to segway into it.



Sethis said:


> ]Frankly I don't run serious AA, and never have. I find wiping out the entirity of my enemies Troops while keeping at least one unit of mine alive til T5 serves to win me games while ignoring anything in the sky.


I tried that against a Heldrake. It doesn't work. Admittedly, that's with Marines, but you can't just 'ignore' a Heldrake.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I find I can, since Chaos lists tend to rely on Plaguies (expensive and few) or Cultists (Serpents lol) so they're welcome to Vector Strike a Serpent per turn at S7 and have their flamers do nothing until they manage to disembark one of my units. He's going to run out of Troops long before I do, and there's no way even two Heldrakes are taking down 4-6 Serpents in one game.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I find I can, since Chaos lists tend to rely on Plaguies (expensive and few) or Cultists (Serpents lol) so they're welcome to Vector Strike a Serpent per turn at S7 and have their flamers do nothing until they manage to disembark one of my units. He's going to run out of Troops long before I do, and there's no way even two Heldrakes are taking down 4-6 Serpents in one game.


Ah, the joys of Eldar, where you can paint up your really nice infantry models in interesting schemes and never, ever see them :victory:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, pretty much. That's why my grav tanks have freehand and crap on them while the guardians are 3 colour basic level


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Sethis said:


> You're gambling that:
> 
> 1. You can destroy their Quad by turn 2. This isn't too difficult with as much S6+ that Eldar can through out against something with only a couple wounds a mediocre save. So I consider that less of a challenge and more of a "remember to do this."
> 
> ...


The problem isn't that Eldar flyers are weak. With the exception of the Hemlock, most Eldar flyers are extremely effective at their jobs. All of them suffer from the risks of Interceptor though. Luckily they have reasonably ranged gear and the special rules to better let them take advantage of their range. Assuming you can kill off a single emplaced weapon, you will have a much easier time maneuvering around the board the rest of the game. Many times I find that my Hunters rarely have to leave my deployment zone and often camp my board edge for a good number of turns. 

All lists should be made with the rest of the list in mind. That isn't something unique to CH lists, its the way any good list should be built. While the CH is not a top tier flyer it does its job well enough. Fast Attack is one of Eldar's most contested slots. Is this a job for the Hunter or the Spider?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Styro-J said:


> This isn't too difficult with as much S6+ that Eldar can through out against something with only a couple wounds a mediocre save. So I consider that less of a challenge and more of a "remember to do this."


It depends what else in in your army, and what's in theirs. Assuming they're actually behind the Aegis, it takes something on the order of two Wave Serpents shooting at a quad gun to kill it. That's 260pts of your army (or whatever) spending T1 (the most important turn regarding firepower application) killing a 50pt model just so it doesn't wreck your 160pt+ flyer when it comes on. I'd rather just not take the Flyer, and then use those Serpents to shoot more threatening things.



Styro-J said:


> Other than playing reserves games, the only other option is to stay back to force the opposing flyer to deploy aggressively if it wants to attack the CH. This can serve to pull the opponent into dangerous waters near other ground threats or limit its potential threat the following turns. If you want the contents of a flyer (or the flyer itself) near a particular wave serpent then this may be the method for you.


It depends on the enemy flyer. A Heldrake needs to get near enough to Vector Strike you, so I suppose it works against them, however Scythes and Vendettas will just happily be 48" away while shooting you into a smoking crater.



Styro-J said:


> Most non-Quad Skyfire options are weak either in terms of range, mobility, and/or survivability. The Space Marine tanks are rather squishy (and not very useful from what I've seen). Broadsides with missiles don't have the range to threaten the backboard with Interceptor and if they only have Skyfire the CH could easily dampen their day before they have a chance to shoot.


If you plan to stay on the back board with your flyer, you're severely limiting your own fire arcs and range (Lances are only 36" remember) in return for surviving - all your weapons are hull mounted and therefore only have 45 degree arcs. If you want to shoot up-table, even with Vector dancer you're going to be hard pressed to hold your ground and still get effective targets. If they're in cover, a CH doesn't even kill a single Broadside (~3 hits, ~3 wounds, 4+ cover is 1.5 saved, and they probably have a tanking commander out front or Drones.



Styro-J said:


> Which cost a similar amount for similar fire power on a similarly fragile platform.


But you can Battle Focus with Fleet after shooting to avoid almost all retaliation provided you have terrain that actually blocks LoS. And as you say, shoot from T1, and all of those shots have Lance, not just 2 of them.

I'm not saying (and never have) that the Hunter is never worth taking, I'm saying that by doing so you're making the game harder on yourself than it has to be, by forcing more difficult choices on you and having to take risks that wouldn't be necessary if you'd spent the points elsewhere.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Sethis said:


> It depends what else in in your army, and what's in theirs. Assuming they're actually behind the Aegis, it takes something on the order of two Wave Serpents shooting at a quad gun to kill it. That's 260pts of your army (or whatever) spending T1 (the most important turn regarding firepower application) killing a 50pt model just so it doesn't wreck your 160pt+ flyer when it comes on. I'd rather just not take the Flyer, and then use those Serpents to shoot more threatening things.
> 
> As always it comes down to threat evaluation, but Eldar have an option to kill it with just about any unit so it keeps possibilities open.
> 
> ...


I know you aren't picking on the flyer and are just insisting players keep their options open to more suitable options. I certainly agree with that sentiment. But I want other players that have already decided on a Hunter to think more tactically about how to get the most out of their choice. So my answer to the original question is that yes the Crimson Hunter can be considered competitive in the right list. But you must be able to use it effectively to get the most out of it.

In terms of gameplay, Eldar haven't really shifted since 5th edition. Mechdar is still the way to go and Seer Councils can still be a major thorn in any army's side (though a little too risky for my tastes). Elites can go largely untouched for the most part, Fast Attack sees little that can compete with Spiders for effectiveness, and Heavy Support is just there to tackle the big stuff. In essence, I agree that solid Eldar lists can be made without a dedicated AA option simply due to the quality of the vehicles they have.


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