# The Death of Mech in Ard Boyz



## TBCX6628 (Apr 29, 2008)

3 KP awarded for a unit that can move more then 6 inches in a single phase, so im guessing that includes rhinos, and other vehicles. GW sticking it to the mech list.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Sucks to be a Tau player with that kind of point system


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

wait, so if i field 2 rhinos, with say a tactical sqaud in each- if both rhinos and sqauds are killed, thats 8 KP's to the opponent? is that right?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ouch for a Jump Pack heavy BA force...


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## TBCX6628 (Apr 29, 2008)

yea its 8 kp for 2 tac squads and their rhinos. It is really brutal. I kinda like the decision its punishing the new mech trend which i'm ok with, it's only 1 mission but its brutal if you have like 6 or 7 transports.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> Ouch for a Jump Pack heavy BA force...


It's worse for a transport heavy Blood Angel (or indeed any) force, trust me. My 'Ard Boyz list has four Rhinos and a Razorback, plus two Predators and a Librarian Furioso with _Wings of Sanguinius_. That's 24 possible Kill Points without including any infantry or Independent Characters.

I'm hoping that this won't be as disastrous as it sounds like it's going to be. I mean, it works both ways, right? The name of the game will be to blow the hell out of the other guy's transports as quickly as possible, or if you can't do that collect the bonus Battle Points.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Sounds like you would get a lot of hoard guard/ork, standard nid and daemon (slaanesh FTW) armies and drop pod marine armies... fleet just became the new god and walkers are your standard Mech (oh god, I can just see the ork armies now...)


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Gosh, it's almost like they were trying to balance out the attractiveness of mechanized forces in the first two scenarios with penalties in the third.

18kp Daemon army that I was thinking of using goes to 30-34 kill points for mission three. Somehow, I'm thinking the mobility's still worth it.

P.S. Why is this in the rules forum? I don't see any rules question.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

It seems like it may even be a bad day to be a Beast/Calvary unit too...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Makes Necron armies unviable again... Monoliths are fine, but if Destroyers, Destroyer Lord, Wraiths and Scarabs are worth 3KP each it is going to give away a lot.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

darklove said:


> Makes Necron armies unviable again... Monoliths are fine, but if Destroyers, Destroyer Lord, Wraiths and Scarabs are worth 3KP each it is going to give away a lot.


I wasn't aware they were viable in highly competitive environments anyway. :laugh:


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## TBCX6628 (Apr 29, 2008)

Lol im running nids so when i saw this i smiled im bringing 9 hive guard so ill rip up transports. though it sucks that my raveners count for 3 kp oh well.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

TBCX6628 said:


> Lol im running nids so when i saw this i smiled im bringing 9 hive guard so ill rip up transports. though it sucks that my raveners count for 3 kp oh well.


It'd be pretty easy to swap out the Raveners for some Warriors or Genestealers. Then again if you're only running one Ravener unit I doubt it's worth worrying about.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Doesn't hurt Eldar Mech too much either, our tanks are fairly hard to kill as it stands.

People using units of 3 Jetbikes are f'd in the a though... 3 KP for killing 3 vanilla marines that are easier to see? Ok then...


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Like DE wasn't suffering in the KP missions already....oh well, not going and I can't remember the last time DE won anything anyway. Certainly not at this point level.

And since it works both way, it'll probably not change much. Only make nids and daemons a little more attractive to play.


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## Uncle Nurgle (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm sorry if this totally sounds retarded, but wtf where is this 3KP coming from?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Uncle Nurgle said:


> I'm sorry if this totally sounds retarded, but wtf where is this 3KP coming from?


It really helps to download the 'Ard Boyz mission pack.  The third mission has some funky rules about how Kill Points are scored.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

Ard Boyz Scenario rulesare up look at scenario 3.

I really think this does little to kill mech and here's why: it's in scenario 3. If you've made it here odds are you have a good list and can fight through two missions worth of tough opponents. Which mean you will usually have mech. people who take footlists trying to capitalize off this might not make it against mech lists in round 1 and 2. If you are a good player and run mech in round 1 and 2 then odds are you'll make it to round 3, possibly against another player who ran mech as well. If anything I would say this encourages mech brinksmanship, players will try to cut a balance of how much mech they should run. I think some players may decrease the amount their running but I doubt it will kill mech as you need it to get through rounds 1-2. If there's anyone this helps it's blood angels wolves and tyraninds, yes you move 12 but your units that do that are far more survivable then a rhino or chimera and don't loose their maneuverability when the transport is killed.


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## Lopspoon (Jun 23, 2009)

I know tihs has somewhat been asked before butwhere can the scenarios be downloaded from? I googled it to no avail.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I wasn't aware they were viable in highly competitive environments anyway. :laugh:


I was at a tournament at Warhammer World in Nottingham a few weeks ago and the Necron armies were unbeaten. I was playing my new Tyranids, but it was still nice to see Necrons doing so well. They are a winning army, but only if you have a steady nerve and know the codex inside-out.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

darklove said:


> I was at a tournament at Warhammer World in Nottingham a few weeks ago and the Necron armies were unbeaten. I was playing my new Tyranids, but it was still nice to see Necrons doing so well. They are a winning army, but only if you have a steady nerve and know the codex inside-out.


Meh, winnign a tournament does not prove a build is good. Matchups may have been a factor in this or the player running them was simply amazing, dosen't mean the army is good just that they are. I really doubt Necrons can *Reliably* beat good mech armies, they can do it occasionally and win a few tournies but I doubt they will do it reliably.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Drizzt_13 said:


> Meh, winnign a tournament does not prove a build is good. Matchups may have been a factor in this or the player running them was simply amazing, dosen't mean the army is good just that they are. I really doubt Necrons can *Reliably* beat good mech armies, they can do it occasionally and win a few tournies but I doubt they will do it reliably.


Don't be a tool. If a list wins a tourny then by definition it is competitive, which was what Katie was commenting on. The Necrons didn't win by luck, they steam-rollered the enemy. Each round was winners vs winners, so they weren't up against uncompetitive lists either. 
No list from any army can reliably beat every other list in existence, so what exactly is your specific point against Necrons?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Necrons are weak and you wouldn't _expect_ them to win tournaments... but they are certainly still a viable army and are _capable_ of winning tournaments.
I am just starting my own necron army and I certainly intend for them to win- I'm sick of all the people I play saying that they are too abd to win and want to aim to prove just how wrong they are.
A properly built and played cron army is certainly a very nasty proposal... I might not fear it as much as nasty lists from other armies but their abilities can mean that they have potentially the most reisilient troops in the game and some of the nastiest shooting to back them up (if your list doesnt have anything that can deal with them then you are screwed- eg a hoard IG army with auto-cannon/HB spam and a few lascannon/MLs seems quite popular at tournies I have been to lately but it woldnt stand a chance against crons as it cant throw the ranged power to kill units in a single turn at over 12", cant remove WBB and cannot possibly kill monoliths).

I've done the same in fantasy with ogres- an army that is far weaker then crons are in 40k and yet I have about a 90% win record in club/FLGS (though it is actually impossible for me to beat even semi-serious daemon lists- and I do mean impossible). They may have my flaws (and flying monsters being untouchable is a huge flaw) but if they come up against the 'standard' block combat units or cav armies so may people like to play they are laughing... if you come up against armies you can deal with then you are laughing, if you come up against things you cant then you'll die


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Its kind of interesting to see people go "ZOMG!!1!one! mech is dead" because 1/3 missions disfavours mech armies. What about the other 2/3 missions?

In the end I think that most players will play fairly mechanized anyway, with some armies (that really can afford it) cutting out on the mech spam. First contender to that would be the Orks I guess...

As a general rule of thumbs I find scenarios like that good, since it can change what people play, gives more army diversity and thus a more fun game for the vast majority of all participants


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

darklove said:


> Don't be a tool. If a list wins a tourny then by definition it is competitive,


Honestly I disagree with you on this point, which is a fairly large issue on the internet. I think the main term we have to define is competitive and if we can define that we may have some issues resolved. While this is more of a placeholder definition for now I would define a competitive list as anything which can hold it's own against other current optimized lists. While yes this is recursive it should do for the purpose of this argument. An example of lists I would consider Competitive, "leafblower" style guard, Razorback spam space marines, immolator spam lists, cavalry based wolves, Blood angels jumper armies (if done well). Are necrons capable of beating these lists? Yes, but they do start in a huge hole against these lists as they only have a few units capable of killing tanks and those units aren't very efficient at that role and can't be fielded in large quantities. 
Look Necrons are going to win tournaments, there are so many people who play necrons and so many tournaments going on it would be highly improbably for them not to. Does the fact that a few players have done so solve the massive issues facing the army, hell no. 



darklove said:


> The Necrons didn't win by luck, they steam-rollered the enemy. Each round was winners vs winners, so they weren't up against uncompetitive lists either.


There is more that goes into winning a tourney then list though, player skill (both yours and those you play against) is a huge factor. The fact that some very good players were able to overcome these issues does not vindicate the issues the entire army faces. Also i would be interested in seeing the other lists entered in the tournament and what sort of comp scores were in place. Some tournaments are more about getting a whole bunch of people to play each other then finding out who is the absolute best player present. 
There is always a debate going on on the internet about which is more about theory justification for the power of a list or the personal experience aspect of seeing it win a tournament. This was demonstrated by the controversy over the Reece Robins footdar post on BOLS, and other numerous issues on the web. 



darklove said:


> No list from any army can reliably beat every other list in existence, so what exactly is your specific point against Necrons?


I am simply saying the necron army is crippled by a number of issues, lack of mech, lack of ability to deal with mech, lack of ways to keep their troops safe from assault, being generally overcosted compared to newer codecies. A competitive list would at least give you even odds of beating a player of equal skill using a top list in a game. the Necron army requires you to either play vastly better then your opponent or come up against a series of lists which are not optimized. 

Winning a tournament doesn't mean a build is good or even competitive, it does mean the player using it most likely was.

Edit:
So to summarize my point more concisely, A Competitive list is a list that has achieved rough parity with, or is advantaged against, all lists bar those tailored completely against it. I add the tailored bit mostly as a disclaimer, really competitive lists such as combined arms mech guard can be tailored against it would be hard to find a way of tailoring a list against so that winning is really easy the way I could tailor against an all horde ork army, or plauge marine rhino rush. While rough parity is still a very loose term I don't think I could really define it much better, suffice it to say that too highly competitive lists can be matched up and give one a slight advantage but the difference shoul only be slight. I think Mech Guard would have a slight advantage over full mech razorback spam marines, as the marines have a number of slots better at killing rhinos then chimeras whereas the guard are quite good at killing rhinos I don't think the difference is large enough to give either player more of an advantage then going first does in chess, that is to say only matters if everything else is perfectly even.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Competitive: well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition.

If Necrons win a competition then they were well suited for that competition and are therefore competitive.

For all your bluster, I think it all boils down to the fact that you have a definition of 'competitive' that is other than that found in the English language.

Necron armies probably represent less than 10% of all tournament entries, they are by no means common. This scarcity will certainly encourage a cognitive bias that presumes Necrons to be uncompetitive.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

1. Necrons are competitive since they do win. Just because they did not beat you does not mean they are not competitive.

2. The one thing people have to remember is the mission in question is the third mission. By then all the leafblower/Seer Council/Razorback spam lists will have knocked the Nids and foot slogging orks to the bottom tables.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

There aren't any bottom tables in Ard Boyz. You just play 3 randomly assigned opponents. The only consideration taken into account is that you won't play the same guy twice.

Then you tally up your scores earned over the 3 battles and the highest wins.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

darklove said:


> Competitive: well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition.
> 
> If Necrons win a competition then they were well suited for that competition and are therefore competitive.


There is more that goes into winning a tourney then the list and by extension the army. That player may have been well suited for competition, the environment he was in may have been (comped) and the opponents he went up against may not have been running optimized lists, which leaves him on fairly even footing then him. 

The list dosen't win the tourney the player does. Necron's aren't particularly well suited for competition (well they are in the sense they are capable of winning), but those players were. 



darklove said:


> For all your bluster, I think it all boils down to the fact that you have a definition of 'competitive' that is other than that found in the English language.


the definition found in the English language (merriam webster), is really too nebulous to be used for 40k. 


Merriam Webster said:


> *Competitive*
> 1 : relating to, characterized by, or based on competition <competitive sports>
> 2 : inclined, desiring, or suited to compete <a competitive personality>
> 
> ...


BY such definitions all 40k lists would be considered competitive as all being suited to compete means is that it strives towards a goal or is in a state of rivalry with another army and player. Therefore we cannot use the English definition as all but those lists intentionally created to be bad and therefore not desiring to "strive consciously for an objective" should be considered uncompetitive. Yet this is certainly not the way competitive is used on a 40k site, and while my definition is more a strict power gamers definition there is a general consensus even among those with less strict definitions then me that necrons are currently the worst army in the game and largely uncompetitive. 



darklove said:


> Necron armies probably represent less than 10% of all tournament entries, they are by no means common. This scarcity will certainly encourage a cognitive bias that presumes Necrons to be uncompetitive.


The other thing that certainly creates a cognitive bias that necrons are uncompetitive is the necron codex. The army lacks efficient ways of killing tanks like every other army has and brings no transports of it's own. You can take units that can kill tanks in only a few slots and they are all out-competed by something else or not very efficient any way. 




njfed said:


> 1. Necrons are competitive since they do win. Just because they did not beat you does not mean they are not competitive.


Look this isn't a case of me playing some noob with necrons crushing him and then laughing about how much they suck, I played necrons and had a 3000 point army of them in 4th edition. The first ard boyz that was in 5th edition I played with them and got 3rd at my FLGS. Why? because I played two mostly foot based armies and 1 army that consisted of rhino mounted chaos space marines, a relatively favorable group of opponents for me. 

While I see that it's possible for me to win tournaments with them I also saw that if my opponents were bringing good (mechanized) lists there was little I could do to win. The only times I did win against mech was when my opponent made painfully bad mistakes. Now I recognize I am not a great necron player and i have admiration for those who have stuck with them and play them well. regardless I feel against another player of equal skill running an optimized list there is very little necrons could put out that would give them much of a chance. 

Show me an optimized necron list that can reliably deal with a top mech list at 1850, then I'll be convinced that necrons are competitive. this is the internet and appropriate theory arguments are far more convincing then relating personal experience. 

That is not to say that I doubt that the necron players won, it is to say that until you can explain why they won and how that can be applied to other builds the knowledge that they did win is pretty much useless


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I've beaten full IG Armoured Companies in 2k games with Necrons, in 5th ed. Armoured lists are NOT a big problem for Necrons because any Necron gun can glance any AV, there are lots of S6 shots with Gauss, and the Monolith is very good a popping tanks. In CC there are C'tan, Lords, Wraiths, TSs and Pariahs that can penetrate most if not all things, and even basic Warriors, Scarabs and Flayed Ones can glance any AV.
Mech lists are not an issue at all.
Monoliths are a great transport option for Necrons, if you know how to use them. They give the army massive mobility if deployed correctly. At 1,850pts most Necron armies will have at least 2 Monoliths.


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I don't think it will slow down the "leaf blower" list one bit. It only punishes them on one scenrio and even then if they get a player that isn't that experienced they will just blast them off the board. I think if they had all the scenerios that were 3KP for fast moving units that would really put the hurt on mech list.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

The whole point of leafblower types is that KP dont come into it- they blow the enemy to bits so fast that return fire is limitted... and then aim to table them anyway. So giving away a few more KP here or there isnt really that important if you are going for anhiliation anyway- I used to play my nids that same way with the 4th ed nid dex: I had so many KP (and used biovores) that I was unlikely to win if I had to count KP... but there was so much shooting that anything short of full mech normally didnt survive long.


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

Styro-J said:


> There aren't any bottom tables in Ard Boyz. You just play 3 randomly assigned opponents. The only consideration taken into account is that you won't play the same guy twice.
> 
> Then you tally up your scores earned over the 3 battles and the highest wins.


not true

the first encounter is random, then all the players are assigned in function of their actual placement (ie after first round the player who's first in points play against the second, the third and fourth etc) with the only exception that u cant play against the same opponent twice


also in 'ard boyz it's really difficoult that someone will be tabled, with a 2500pts army and a 2hours and half time limit most games will be of 3turns and even the cheesiest list wont table opponents in 3turns...

anyway since in the first 2rounds mech lists are usually stronger they will probably battle each other in 3rd battle limiting the disadvantage of the antifast ruling since both armies could be mech heavy... just a tought on the many many many many different possibilities


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

darklove said:


> I've beaten full IG Armoured Companies in 2k games with Necrons, in 5th ed. Armoured lists are NOT a big problem for Necrons because any Necron gun can glance any AV, there are lots of S6 shots with Gauss, and the Monolith is very good a popping tanks. In CC there are C'tan, Lords, Wraiths, TSs and Pariahs that can penetrate most if not all things, and even basic Warriors, Scarabs and Flayed Ones can glance any AV.
> Mech lists are not an issue at all.


Yes you can glance but that has been so nerfed in 5th ed it rarely matters, most transports will have EA so they'll still get their guys were they need to go. Your fairly effective at stunning the hell out of vindicators and short range gun tanks but your less effective against longer ranged tanks which can sit in the back and fire long range. Your destroyers have the range but against rhinos they are one of the few things in your army which will get penetrating results. therefore you have the tough choice of deciding whether or not you wan to split open transports so the rest of your army can actually do something or if you want to stop the battletanks that are doing the damage to your force. .

Killing transports in CC is pretty unreliable, if they moved 12 inches last turn you'll be lucky to hit at all and even if you do pen that's still only a 1/3 chance of killing the vehicle. Monoliths can do it but then they don't get to teleport troops which is really inconvenient. Also most of your anti tank platforms, destroyers, wraith scarabs and flayes ones aren't the most durable of units and if they are really the only concern your opponent can focus fire on them and eliminate them quickly. 


darklove said:


> Monoliths are a great transport option for Necrons, if you know how to use them. They give the army massive mobility if deployed correctly. At 1,850pts most Necron armies will have at least 2 Monoliths.


Monoliths aren't a transport the way a chimera or a rhino is a transport though, it lets your troops hop around faster but it dosen't provide the advantage of mech spam. Because your warriors can't actually stay inside it you don't have the advantage of full mech in that your opponents anti infantry guns have few targets for turns 1-2. You rarely deny you opponents the ability to shoot your troops without denying the ability of your troops to shoot as well. While the monolith is very survivable there is a small downside to that in that now all the S8 guns people bring along for rhinos will be hitting your destroyers instead and those are the most potent part of your army. 

I don't doubt that necrons's aren't capable of beating good mech armies but they start at a considerable disadvantage against them.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I like using foot forces. Although being Eldar a lot of it is fast as it is. Any ways transport vehicles are easy to counter in any mission whilst using a foot force. Just target prioritize. Such as aim for the rhino full of chaos marines that could rapid-fire next turn rather than the other rhino full of khorne beserkers that can't do nothin till turn 2.


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

morfangdakka said:


> I don't think it will slow down the "leaf blower" list one bit. It only punishes them on one scenrio and even then if they get a player that isn't that experienced they will just blast them off the board. I think if they had all the scenerios that were 3KP for fast moving units that would really put the hurt on mech list.


I have been informed that the "leaf blower" list has been banned. Just what I was told.
It's unfortunate, but it the 3rd scenario does not bother me. It teaches people to play other types of lists instead of mechanized. Forces more tactics too.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

paolodistruggiuova said:


> the first encounter is random, then all the players are assigned in function of their actual placement (ie after first round the player who's first in points play against the second, the third and fourth etc) with the only exception that u cant play against the same opponent twice
> 
> 
> also in 'ard boyz it's really difficoult that someone will be tabled, with a 2500pts army and a 2hours and half time limit most games will be of 3turns and even the cheesiest list wont table opponents in 3turns...


I stand corrected, that's just what I get for reading the 1st and last sentence of the paragraph only.

But trust me, unless your playing against a horde Orks or the like, you can finish your games.


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## goldleader23 (May 5, 2010)

ChaosSpaceMarineGuy said:


> I have been informed that the "leaf blower" list has been banned. Just what I was told.
> It's unfortunate, but it the 3rd scenario does not bother me. It teaches people to play other types of lists instead of mechanized. Forces more tactics too.


Where in gods name did you hear that the list has been banned? ... 
There is no way they would ban a list. 
gah...

But anyways.. This scenario really screws with my army since im a Blood Angels player... everything in my army moves over 6"... how is that fair too me...


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

@ goldleader23> It doesn't matter where I heard it, but I don't believe that (or anything) without doing my own research to confirm or deny what has been said. It would not surprise me because of and this did happen at a tournament. This is not word from word from what he posted:
On a forum (and it is trustworthy for you doubters out there) I read that this guy was saying he entered a tournament that contained *6*, that's right *6* leaf-blower lists. And I forgot if it was him or one of his buddies that actually had to face a leaf-blower list every round due to rotten luck.
So that is why I would not be surprised that if that exact build was banned. And as for your BA army....either overcome the obstacle or don't play it in the tourny.


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## goldleader23 (May 5, 2010)

ChaosSpaceMarineGuy said:


> @ goldleader23> It doesn't matter where I heard it, but I don't believe that (or anything) without doing my own research to confirm or deny what has been said. It would not surprise me because of and this did happen at a tournament. This is not word from word from what he posted:
> On a forum (and it is trustworthy for you doubters out there) I read that this guy was saying he entered a tournament that contained *6*, that's right *6* leaf-blower lists. And I forgot if it was him or one of his buddies that actually had to face a leaf-blower list every round due to rotten luck.
> So that is why I would not be surprised that if that exact build was banned. And as for your BA army....either overcome the obstacle or don't play it in the tourny.



How can you "Ban" an army list? 
Do you ban the models they used? which would make any guard army useless?
Do you ban the exact list or any variation of it possible? 
Also useless?
Or do you just ban guard altogether? 

Any of those 3 things are ridiculously far-fetched. so whoever you heard that from is wrong. Guard is still dumb. Spam-raider list are still dumb. Warlock councils are still dumb. They cant "Ban" a list.

Also so what your saying is that i should just run vanilla space marines then? 
I should build my list around not using Jump infantry? Oh wait... Blood angels....
Thatll work out just great wont it.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Have to agree that banning a list would be very difficult... they could only do it by restricting the numbers of different tanks/transports that you could take in an army (eg <2 of X, Y and Z... no more then 10 vehicles total) but doing so would scrap many other list allongside the leafblower... which rather defeats the whole point of Ard Boyz.

Anyways, my money is still on blood angels to break this years event.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

What on earth is a leafblower list? Does it have any other names?


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## goldleader23 (May 5, 2010)

I dont understand how my army will break the tournament this year with that third scenario... kinda ruins it for me... lol.. but if you have an insight please message me so i may know and have hope =P 

And "Leafblower" is a guard army that basically uses a static gunline of tanks. Basically drops templates and eradicates most armies turn 1. Won Ard boys last year if im not mistaken... Its the most powerful list in the game ATM. who knows if something will come out and stop it.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Something which is important to note is Leafblower is the best meta-list going about just now. I.E it performs very well against the other top tier list. There are lots of janky builds that can beat it but unfortunately they perform poorly against the Lash-Obliterators etc of this world. 

Aramoro


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Ah, I see. Cheers for that. Does it work in 1750/1500 point battles? It seems to me more like a 2000+ list.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It can do, leafblower is more a principal than a list as such. You just wont have as much of some stuff and you lose some of the meta choices like Inquisitors with Psycannon and the Mystics maybe. 

Aramoro


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

Styro-J said:


> I stand corrected, that's just what I get for reading the 1st and last sentence of the paragraph only.
> 
> But trust me, unless your playing against a horde Orks or the like, you can finish your games.


well then the problem probably is that i'm slow  also i usually play 1500, my only 2k game was horde orks vs horde nidz...maybe that's cause it lasted so long ;D


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> What on earth is a leafblower list? Does it have any other names?


The Leafblower was the list that won last years ardboys, it was run by Darkwynn from BOLS. it was named that because he won every game in under 60 minutes. it is essentially a lot of chimera mounted infantry and long range artillery on chimera chassis that al together muster enough fire power to just cripple your army turn 1. It relies heavily on alpha strike and one of the things that contributed to his winning record was that he got first every game and none of his opponents reserved their army. Nevertheless it'sa ver good list. 

The powergamer community then took it upon themselves to show how it could be made better, removing things like power fists from command squads and making it generally more cutthroat then it already was. The powergamer community finds leafblower very frustrating because it is close to their design philosophy and is widely accepted, wheras other lists that follow the same principles have not had players win major tournaments with them and so are less widely accepted. 

The next part of the whole leafblower fiasco was when darkwynn and the BOLS crew showed up to adepticon and found tons of people running the same style list but for lower points value, thus causing Darkwynn to write a piece about how he had ruined 40k for people and was sorry and was shelving the leafblower.

This really pissed off all the powergamers, they felt lists of similar quality could be made from nearly any codex, people simply weren't because the people running the best known blog hadn't posted them. They would prefer to elevate all army lists to such a high standard of play and teach people to learn to use the elafblower. Also they found the article a little arrogant and that Darkwynn was saying that he ruined 40k by being too awesome at list building when they had been building similar lists for awhile. 

So the Leafblower debate is largely over whether or not the correct way of dealing with really good build is using them until people figure out how to deal with them or simply not use them because people won't have fun getting beat that badly while they're trying to figure out how to beat it.

personally I think it's a good list but it's not unbeatable and other armies can make lists of similar caliber. I don't think you should force people to learn how to deal with it when your playing at a FLGS because that'sa ll about fun but when you're at a tourney and play is competitive I would go for the all out approach.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Cheers for that mate, much apprieciated 

I agree with your last statements. That the list would be good, but not unbeatable. 'Ard Boyz is such a high points value compared to other tournaments, different builds are bound to be dominant.

EDIT: I would have though 9 Oblits would have been enough to put the pressure on a vehicle gunline...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Its luck of the draw, leafblower was designed to be good against Lash-Oblit lists. If you Deep strike in then you're risking not getting on till too late due to Master of the Fleet and when you do arrive you can't land too close or that Mystic might end up making you explode before you get a chance to fire a shot. So you're kinda left deploying on the board and blazing away with your lascannons, stuck in a fire fight with a gunline Guard army. There are weakness in the list, big ones, but very few competitive lists out and out wipe it off the board. 

Aramoro


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I'm a little torn on that issue my self. Necrons always winning was starting to really put people off, and their gaming really froze up because their nerves could not get past the anticipation of defeat. My solution was to always play to win with Necrons, even though almost noone can beat them, and to start another race that I play more often. That way it stays fun for everyone, without having to be patronising by playing below par.


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