# why are their so many white people?



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

has anyone ever noticed that all the human and eldar figurines are white? Why is it that everyone in the future is Caucasian? the only time I have seen a non-white person in 40K was in DoW. Where the inquisitor was from the Caribbean islands, complete with accent. 

Does anyone else find this a little funny and equally sad?


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

from a game, thats mainly derrived from fantasy, and brittain? nope, not funny atall.

you have to remember, its really hard to make something look non caucasian in this game without making it look like a very racial sterotyped game.

Eldar = ELVES, which are fair skinned tall lenky people with light eye colours like blue and green.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, I think white scars are "asian"
salamander are dark skinned 
and there is an Imperial Fists chaplain called Lo Chang


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

Dark Angels are black people... nuff said...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Seeing as how the game is centred on Nottingham, England its not overly surprising that there are mostly 'white' people (especially since elves and 'good' dwarves have pretty much always been described as white to various degrees)- it would be pretty hard to create models the had obvious racial differences between causasian and Pakistani/Indian. The easiest racial difference to show would be caucasian-afro/carribbean but there is a reason why no one has ever coined the phrase African-English; there are relatively few 'black' people in the UK (though universities tend to be much more diverse... dont know if that is just UK or my uni or what...)


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Tallen desert raiders for IG are idian looking


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

There are different ethnic groups in 40K but I do agree that it's white-biased in all the photos and whatnot. I mean you do have Tallarans, Salamanders and Attilan Rough Riders plus somebody's always got a black Mohawk-wearing catachan somewhere but I agree that there's not much diversity out there.
Mind you, we're the ones doing the painting and its up to you to have different ethnic groups in your armies. My cadians have a 7:1 white:black ratio for instance.


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## Dark Assassin101 (Jul 3, 2009)

Samir_Duran said:


> Dark Angels are black people... nuff said...


I think they are more native american 
anyway as was said its how you paint them and most of the time they are wearing full body armour so you cant tell


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well all my Nids are green... see, it is a racial diverse galaxy


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## DeathTyrant (Aug 23, 2009)

Well, the games originated before political correctness and the need to make games and/or media diverse.
The games also originated from my pasty white homeland. Sure, Britain has plenty of Indian/Asian and Black people, but I think I am right in saying that the GW stuff is mostly enjoyed by white males. Or is that an unreasonable assumption?

Would it be nice to see some more colour in the Imperium? Sure, why not. Maybe they can think about writing up some cool fluff and new regiments, I don't see why not.
I don't think that GW should be pressured into doing so though. The people who buy the stuff can make them whatever colour they like, but until those people decide to do so, you will mostly be seeing white boys in the IG and SM.

Hell, before GW existed the Elves and Dwarves of fantasy have been typically white, or perhaps ruddy cheeked in the case of Dwarves.

So, long story short, no one is stopping you from making Afghani Eldar, Translucent Orks, or Chinese Imperial Guard. If you feel strongly about it, go make some.


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

I keep all sorts of skin tones in my SM army, just because it looks better I reckon.


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## Fire Lord (Feb 15, 2009)

Don't forget the Tau, they're blue/grey.:grin: Power to the blue/grey people! Seriously, just paint it any way you want. Be creative and make a squad of guard green, and claim they drank too much, or just had a wonderful ride in a valkryie!uke: :laugh:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> Does anyone else find this a little funny and equally sad?


in all honesty, yes i do find is funny as well as sad, but i don't find it all that surprising.

this is a topic that comes up every few month, and frankly i'm not surprised that it does. i'm unconcerned with racial equality, because 40k is set in a fictional universe and thus it is what it is, however, i find the lack of racial diversity absurd and rather off putting. the difference between one or other army isn't even skin deep!

there are is a logical reason for this lack of diversity (even if there are no excuses):

firstly, the game was developed in 80s Britain, where racial diversity was minimal. the game really reflects the experiences and understandings of those times, rather than a deliberate attempt to cut non-white people out.

following on from that, for whatever reason, wargaming is and has always been a predominately white activity. the 40k does not sell well in the East Asian market and is effectively unheard of in African and the Middle East. i can't say i have ever lived in a region like the Midlands (UK) that has a very high percentage of non-white residents, but i've never lived anywhere where i didn't know some, and i can't say i know any non-white wargamers. that's not to say that other people don't, but i have no reason to suspect that my experience is particularly unique.

this has two effects on the game. if there is no market for the game there is no pressure from below for white developers to move the game in a direction more suitable to them. also, if there is no fan base then it means there are no (or very very few) non-white gamers becoming developers/miniature designers/miniature painters and applying pressure from above as well. (as an aside, can anyone think of a non-white member of the design team or WD team?)



MontytheMighty said:


> well, I think white scars are "asian"


they're about as Mongol as John Wayne pretending to be Genghis Khan in The Conqueror



MontytheMighty said:


> salamander are dark skinned


the Salamanders may have obsidian black skin and blood red eyes, but culturally they are European. thankfully, for you and i, culture is more than mere skin colour.



MontytheMighty said:


> and there is an Imperial Fists chaplain called Lo Chang


that's even less like a foreign culture and ethnicity than the Salamanders example.



Samir_Duran said:


> Dark Angels are black people... nuff said...


where did you get that from?



Dagmire said:


> Tallen desert raiders for IG are idian looking


i've never come across any reference made in the background to their ethnic identity, and all the illustrations i've seen of them give them the same generic white features that pretty much everyone else has. the same goes for the models.

the only possible hint that we've really got is there one special character, Al'rahem. which implies that GW would want them to have an Arabic theme rather than an Indian theme.

(though it would be very cool to have an Indian themed army)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dark Assassin101 said:


> I think they are more native american
> anyway as was said its how you paint them and most of the time they are wearing full body armour so you cant tell


their homeplanet Caliban was dominated by a knightly order 
that sounds really European

I think currently some of their recruits come from a planet inhabited by Native American-like people
but those are just some individuals, they're still a very Knights Templar-themed chapter in my opinion


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## Zodd (Jul 27, 2009)

Regarding Dark Angels; In the DeathWing-story, they were very much native-american based ( by Ansell/Wattson) . And the termies-suit likewise ( an extention to SH, do i remember right ? ). But it seems to have been altered.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Zodd said:


> Regarding Dark Angels; In the DeathWing-story, they were very much native-american based ( by Ansell/Wattson) . And the termies-suit likewise ( an extention to SH, do i remember right ? ). But it seems to have been altered.


yeah, but I'm just saying that Caliban, where the Dark Angels style developed was not Native American

overall they're still a European monk-templar-inspired chapter 



admiraldick said:


> they're about as Mongol as John Wayne pretending to be Genghis Khan in The Conqueror


I'm not sure what you mean, they come from a planet with place names like Quan Zhou, and they're supposed to look Asian/Mongolian (they're pretty much as Mongolian as space wolves are Viking)








...doesn't look like a white guy, I even have the feeling they were trying to emphasise his "oriental eyes"
it's about as close to diversity as you'll get from GW




> the Salamanders may have obsidian black skin and blood red eyes, but culturally they are European. thankfully, for you and i, culture is more than mere skin colour.


yeah they're not African, but they're almost like a new race of human that branched off in the future, they probably couldn't be classified as caucasian





> that's even less like a foreign culture and ethnicity than the Salamanders example.


well, Lo Chang is a "moon-faced" chaplain of the Imperial Fists, not exactly politically correct, but probably not white, so he prob came from a planet with moon-faced people, hint of diversity perhaps


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Survival of the fittest?


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> the Salamanders may have obsidian black skin and blood red eyes, but culturally they are European. thankfully, for you and i, culture is more than mere skin colour.


The Salamanders are described in the 4th Ed SM Codex as being dark skinned with vibrant eye colours such as red and violet. They mention specifically that they are _sometimes_ seen with obsidian skin, but to me the word _sometimes_, implies that it is not the majority. 

I personally paint the Salamaders as predominantly black (not african-american as none of the salamanders have American citizenship, nor did they arrive here from Africa). 

I am a white American who wargmes only casually, and more often than not I game with my longtime friend, who is black. He plays CSM and IG, and not one of his marines is painted anything but caucasian. He painted them himself and has no reason to be upset. 

Racism is only a prevelant as you choose to make it. Another way of saying that may be to say that no matter what you look for, you_ will _find it.

Pollyanna said it best, for anyone who would get the refference.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Paint them Ido-Caribbean then.

Curry and Banana's.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Survival of the fittest?


...all I am going to say is that in America people have been shot for saying a lot less then that.


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## Despoiled (Aug 23, 2009)

Hmm, Im part white and part native american and never thought about race in the game but I play CSM so I have all different colors of skin (blue, green, white what ever) in my army. Having mostly all "white" game dosnt bug me at all but it maybe because Im part white too, I think being a mix race you tend to forget race as a factor more then a "all white, all black, all native american's do". I think of us as all human not color, I never understoot the stress people (of all races) put on the color of skin.


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## HandOfNephthys (Aug 18, 2009)

Well, My Tyranids are brown.
Hey man, Im black with white stripes


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> ...all I am going to say is that in America people have been shot for saying a lot less then that.


I think the people who said stuff like that were often also the people doing the shooting...


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm not sure what you mean,


the point is that John Wayne is a white American dressed (unconvicingly) to play the part of a man from another race. the White Scars are little more.



MontytheMighty said:


> yeah they're not African, but they're almost like a new race of human that branched off in the future, they probably couldn't be classified as caucasian


i whole heartly agree that they are not African, nor of African decent, and i'm not even looking for Africans to be part of the game (because it is the far future and the continent of Africa is as relevant as Europe or Antarctica). however, what i am looking for, and what will improve the variety and diversity of the game considerably is if the cultures present in the game are more than just European fantasy stereotypes. they may well have different coloured skin, but they are still very white at heart. 




MontytheMighty said:


> well, Lo Chang is a "moon-faced" chaplain of the Imperial Fists, not exactly politically correct, but probably not white, so he prob came from a planet with moon-faced people, hint of diversity perhaps


a hint could be considered more racist than abscence. at least if diversity was absent it could be put down to ignorance.



Prince Endymion said:


> The Salamanders are described in the 4th Ed SM Codex as being dark skinned with vibrant eye colours such as red and violet. They mention specifically that they are _sometimes_ seen with obsidian skin, but to me the word _sometimes_, implies that it is not the majority.


that would depend entirely on what background you read. the Salamanders have been portrayed as predominantly obsidian skinned since 1st Ed. it was only in the late 3rd and 4th eds that they became dark-skinned. and then they reverted back for 5th.



Prince Endymion said:


> I am a white American who wargmes only casually, and more often than not I game with my longtime friend, who is black. He plays CSM and IG, and not one of his marines is painted anything but caucasian. He painted them himself and has no reason to be upset.


i'm very happy to hear that, but i still don't think that it implies racial diversity either in the game or in its fan base.

and whilst i have no reason to question your particular friend, it is certainly worth remembering that simply because all parties are implicit in an act of racism, doesn't make it any less racist.

as an aside i think its worth us bearing in mind that its difficult to talk about such an emotive subject, particularly considering that some of the biggest examples of racism we have are from white people against African people. people can be quick to reverting to talking to people in stereotype, as though they personally had committed historical acts of racism (and as though they had personally been violated by historical acts of racism), but its not really helpful to the discussion.



Prince Endymion said:


> Racism is only a prevelant as you choose to make it. Another way of saying that may be to say that no matter what you look for, you_ will _find it.


i really cannot agree with that statement. there is such a thing as racism and it can be measured, objectively.

i agree though that if all parties are implicit and comfortable with the situation then it is not always a problem. however, that doesn't mean that we, as enlightened and educated individuals and communities shouldn't be working towards eliminating as much as is humanly possible.



GabrialSagan said:


> ...all I am going to say is that in America people have been shot for saying a lot less then that.


sadly though i suspect that far more people have been killed for not agreeing with it.


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

Vaz--WTF?!


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## shmabadu (Oct 2, 2009)

What about the emperor he was supposed to have been born in Anatolia 5,000 years ago. Is he white? The people of that region at that time were dark-haired olive skinned people, and could probably pass now as white(Greek, Southern Italian) or Asian(Turkish, Iranian). On race in the 41st millenium I would say each planet probably was originally composed of different races that mixed and then homogenized and then evolved over 40,000 years. What you see now isn't white but an evolved different race as different from us as we are to Cro-magnon.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, world is getting smaller... racial groups will start to re-homogenise, in another thousand years I would recon there wont be much racial difference accross the planet (so long as travel/comms keep getting easier). Then again that would change once people started to collonise other worlds... Im guessing there would be very little resettling from 1 world to another (at least not significant to the numbers living there) unless planetary travel was incredibly quick.

If Darwinian evolution was in effect then people should be getting more and more white skinned as they increasingly move to an indoors lifestyle... but then human populations are no longer work on a Darwinian scheme (biologically fittest dont survive best... might be that socially fittest people do)


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> i whole heartly agree that they are not African, nor of African decent, and i'm not even looking for Africans to be part of the game (because it is the far future and the continent of Africa is as relevant as Europe or Antarctica). however, what i am looking for, and what will improve the variety and diversity of the game considerably is if the cultures present in the game are more than just European fantasy stereotypes. they may well have different coloured skin, but they are still very white at heart.


That seems like the simple, idealogically convenient way of looking at things.

Whether you trace it back via religion or some crude method of scientific guess-work, mankind has a point of origin. At that point, our race was not diverse and we were all one color. The inevitable argument about what color we were at that point is irrelavent, all that matters is that we were not divided by color. 

From there, you can deduce again by faith or by theory, that we were scattered and divided over the ages (whether the tower of babel or some other solution pleases you again makes no difference). 

Racism is not inate to mankind. In our purest form we are all united by our humanity, not our cosmetic appearance. It is superficial and simple to draw a line beyond that. 

In our distant history you are correct. The white, caucasian men dominated the globe (save China) and held influence over the races whose numbers were fewer. a few hundred years ago there were cases of abuse and mistreatment, even outright murder of slaves and servants was not unheard of (though certainly not common, it did hapen). 

Over the centuries, stories tend to loose their context and what was once a simple in-equality is seen now as hateful, vindictive, racism. Perspective changes everything.

Now the tables have turned. The same culture that was once persecuted is now the most outwardly racist community in the world. The US President (though I am not a suporter of his office) did, at least, afford a statement of similar point, urging people of his color to behave more... "responsibly". 

I don't understand your statement about how white men are to blame for anything. If anything, we are the victims of racism, as we are the only race to not be given tax cuts, releif funds, and credit erasure simply becouse of our skin color. The white, Christian male is the only applicant to US universities that does not receive financial aid or benefits. 

Again, perspective. 





admiraldick said:


> i really cannot agree with that statement. there is such a thing as racism and it can be measured, objectively.


Racism is an illusion, it is a fire that fuels itself, and is sustained only by parties with something to gain by its existence, even if what they gain is nothing more that satisfaction or vindication of their beleif that someone else is to blame for their problems.




admiraldick said:


> i agree though that if all parties are implicit and comfortable with the situation then it is not always a problem. however, that doesn't mean that we, as enlightened and educated individuals and communities shouldn't be working towards eliminating as much as is humanly possible.


Coddling the poor fools who suffer from this self-imposed condition does nothing to alleviate the problem, it perpetuates it, and keeps it from being relegated to its propper place in history. 





admiraldick said:


> sadly though i suspect that far more people have been killed for not agreeing with it.


I have to disagree there, history has been written and re-written so rapaciously in the recent years that there is simply no telling what the numbers were in the past, but we can witness them growing every day the issue is allowed to survive in our time, now.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> the point is that John Wayne is a white American dressed (unconvicingly) to play the part of a man from another race. the White Scars are little more.


yeah I get what you're trying to say, I'm asking what are you basing that statement on, where is it hinted in the fluff that the white scars are just "white people" masquerading as "mongols"?

In all the GW artwork they clearly look very oriental, whereas other chapters like the Ultramarines look very white
Maybe you think the artists didn't draw them convincingly enough as non-white mongols (I think this might be what you're really getting at), but that's what they're clearly intended to be, just like John Wayne on screen was clearly intended to be the mongol genghis khan

Furthermore in the picture of the model I posted, the white scars captain clearly does not look white, in fact I think the painter did a pretty good job of painting a convincing mongol

compare this...








with this...









I mean, I don't know how they're supposed to make the white scars space marine more "Asian" than he already is


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

@MontytheMighty

I agree completely. The model does a fine job adding details that set the unit apart. 

I honestly don't know what the purpose of this thread was, sinse this game is already very diverse culturally. Almost every faction available to the players is a representation of some existing culture.

The Ultramarines are very clearly framed after the Romans.

The Dark Angels are very clearly the germaic Goths.

The White Scars are most definately Mongol, the name "Khan" being given to many of their characters.
The Necrons have a lot of cultural cross-references with egyptian lore.

The Tau are a complete image of Communist China. they were even introduced at a time when that was center-stage in world politics.

The Space Wolves are laced with Viking reference.

The IG have many factions within itself:
The Vestroyans are a spitting image of the pre-revolotionary Russian white army. 

The Valhalans, are well, norse (Valhala, duh).

The Tallaran Desert Raiders are very clearly post-muslim-influence Arabic tribes.

There are a dozeon or more cultural references in the game, and more to choose from than I have listed here. Color, is what people are whining about, the simple, shallow, superficial, cosmetic self image that clearly means more to people than it should.

GW has done a fine job offering diverse armies and models, and yet complaints persist... hope truly is the first step on the road to dissapointment.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Has anybody considered this possibility. Look at the names on the paint jars the light flesh tones are Tallarn flesh, elf flesh, dwarf flesh. There are no dark flesh tones. The browns are graveyard earth etc. If when newbies go to paint flesh they will allways reach first for a jar associated with a flesh tone. I know I did. Hence the predominantly light skinned armies. I have an entire army of guard who look like white black mix because i used too much flesh ink and their skin tones are very dark.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> Racism is not inate to mankind. In our purest form we are all united by our humanity, not our cosmetic appearance. It is superficial and simple to draw a line beyond that.


i'm not really sure what the 'purest form' of humanity is, i can't say i have ever come across such a thing. i agree that racism per se is not inate to mankind, however, arguing over and making boundaries based on difference seem to be pretty universal. 



Prince Endymion said:


> I don't understand your statement about how white men are to blame for anything.


i don't think that i said anything like that. however, what i was trying to say is that discussions about racism can be taken off kilter by those who perceive themselves to have been part of group that have suffered some historical act of racism or by those that deny that such acts took place. and unfortunately the most common histroical events in which these attitudes manifest are the 2nd World War and the European enslavement of Africans.

it can mean that conversations can never move beyond, 'you can't possibly talk about this because you're white, so you are part fo the problem'.



Prince Endymion said:


> Racism is an illusion, it is a fire that fuels itself, and is sustained only by parties with something to gain by its existence, even if what they gain is nothing more that satisfaction or vindication of their beleif that someone else is to blame for their problems.


i'm afraid that i cannot agree with any of that statement. worse still it is a farce of logic. of course those who are abused by racism benefit if the racism ceases, but that does not go in anyway to say that they are the cause.



Prince Endymion said:


> Coddling the poor fools who suffer from this self-imposed condition does nothing to alleviate the problem, it perpetuates it, and keeps it from being relegated to its propper place in history.


there is not much i can say in response to this, because or concepts of the issue are fundamentally different, so our ideas of solutions are unrelated. i don't percieve the problem to be entirely self-generated, so i can't argue for or against you idea of a remedy for it.



MontytheMighty said:


> yeah I get what you're trying to say, I'm asking what are you basing that statement on, where is it hinted in the fluff that the white scars are just "white people" masquerading as "mongols"?


we obviously have very different opions as to what constitutes acceptable efforts to creating a sense of diversity and avoiding racial stereotypes. i was not suggesting that their background implied that they were just pretending to be the way they are, i was suggesting that the effort put into it was only half-hearted and was only as effective as refering to them as 'yellow, slitty-eyed bastards" and calling them all Ting-Tong.

its just drab and unconvincing.

conversely, LotR actually does have quite a lot of ethnic diversity in it. some of which is unique (or at least only hints towards another real culture) and others are more closely tied to a real culture. the Gondorians, Haradrim, Umbar, Khand and Easterlings (who i forget the name of their country) to look, and feel genuinely different.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> we obviously have very different opions as to what constitutes acceptable efforts to creating a sense of diversity and avoiding racial stereotypes. i was not suggesting that their background implied that they were just pretending to be the way they are, i was suggesting that the effort put into it was only half-hearted and was only as effective as refering to them as 'yellow, slitty-eyed bastards" and calling them all Ting-Tong. its just drab and unconvincing.


hmmm...well I don't completely disagree with you there, GW is a European "toy soldier" company, and I doubt the GW folks have a firm grasp on the nuances of Asian cultures, the moon-faced Lo Chang is clearly a good example at a very clumsy and frankly quite lame attempt to throw in a bit of diversity

yeah, the White Scars are stereotypical Mongols
for some reason I thought you were implying that they're just white people with an Asian-inspired culture (which I don't think is the case, even GW wouldn't do something as out of place as that)


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> however, what i was trying to say is that discussions about racism can be taken off kilter by those who perceive themselves to have been part of group that have suffered some historical act of racism or by those that deny that such acts took place. and unfortunately the most common histroical events in which these attitudes manifest are the 2nd World War and the European enslavement of Africans.


For my part I do not see WW2 as being an example of true racism. I highly doubt that what occured at that time was motivated by hatred or any racial boundries, but was simple politics. Hilter needed a place to focus the frustrations and resentment of the German population, which up to that time, had been flundering. This was a great move strategically, but was inhuman and cold for the people on the receiving end.



admiraldick said:


> i'm afraid that i cannot agree with any of that statement. worse still it is a farce of logic. of course those who are abused by racism benefit if the racism ceases, but that does not go in anyway to say that they are the cause.


I think you do agree and just didnt realize it. When I stated that racism is sustained only by people with something to gain by its existance, that is _exactly_ what I meant. The fact that the 'victims' draw that line creates a seperation between them and others; they have suffered so only they are able to understand, is the logic by which they segregate themselves and sustain the very racism they claim to be victims of (in in fact, no one alive today was around to be victimized by).

On the issue of the White Scars... what exactly would you like GW to do about it? Making an attempt to replicate a culture in its entirety would be counter-productive to the game, sinse humanity is supposed to be a singularity in 40k. They stand alone against all else, the only division GW needed to make was between traitors and loyalists. Making further distinctions just makes the whole of humanity seem more diluted in a game where that is (even if fiction) not the case.

The diversity they do add is thematic, allowing players to see a unified human race, with differences in appearance and method from being scattered across the stars. In this way, they can allow players to experience various cultures from a very basic point, without having to play a completely different race than human.


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## heretical by nature (Sep 22, 2009)

i dunno i spose ease of painting is in there aswell, like rolling your troops off a production line so to speak. having different skin tones imo would slow down this process so yeah i rekon that contributes to thit aswell


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I really don't see why this is such an issue for some people. If you want to add some different levels of Mellonin to your troops then go ahead it's just a matter of painting. I know for a fact that the BL books are not the sole territory of ******.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> I think you do agree and just didnt realize it. When I stated that racism is sustained only by people with something to gain by its existance, that is _exactly_ what I meant. The fact that the 'victims' draw that line creates a seperation between them and others; they have suffered so only they are able to understand, is the logic by which they segregate themselves and sustain the very racism they claim to be victims of (in in fact, no one alive today was around to be victimized by).


I think racism is alive and well today, it may appear in more subtle forms but it's there
if you think no one nowadays is victimised by racism then that's just a point of fact we won't agree on

yes, the victims sometimes overplay and "sustain" it, but it's impossible for them to sustain it solely on their own
it takes two sides to tango, and I think more blame should be put on the perpetrators than the victims 
after all, if you're the victim of racism in a society with free speech and press, of course you're going to play it up


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I recon white people are now probably the biggest recipients of racism now (least in the UK)- they are the only group you can be racist against and get away with it. Positive discimination is still official racism... but somehow I dont expect this extends to having to worry about being attacked walking down a street because of your skin colour.

As for GW products its up to the painter- a friend of mine did an arbites army that looked amasing... he new race would pop up so he made it part of the army: all the cops were white, of the 4 convict squads 3 were black... but then the general was black- so he kept pretty much to the stereotype except just with an added twist.

On a personal note- I either paint for fluff or for feel: my SW were nordic so all were white, my ogres are an offshoot of greenskins (as far as Im concerned) so tend to be blue/grey-green and my elves boringly predictable... if I was an IG player I would want to play more of a 'commonwealth' type army with different units having different racial backgrounds and mebbe even different uniforms (like a peace keeping force)- it just depends on how much variety the owner/painter wants to get in there


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

tallaran are Arabic for one, and really the universe is probably plenty diverse on the human end at least, it just isn't pointed out so much because in the grand scheme of the galactic turmoil it is irrelevant what a person's ethnicity is just that they defend the imperium. besides, on that same note why aren't there red orks either? orks are an algae and red tides are from red algae blooms, so where are the red tide orks?


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## Brother Boozekitty (Sep 29, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> The Salamanders are described in the 4th Ed SM Codex as being dark skinned with vibrant eye colours such as red and violet. They mention specifically that they are _sometimes_ seen with obsidian skin, but to me the word _sometimes_, implies that it is not the majority.
> 
> I personally paint the Salamaders as predominantly black (not african-american as none of the salamanders have American citizenship, nor did they arrive here from Africa).
> 
> ...


/Agree.

I fail to understand why racial "equality" would be forced into a fantasy world based around a futuristic 'medieval' setting. How many indian Templar Hospitaler do you know of? How many asian Nords were there? How about black Roman Legionnaires? Because this world was/is a somewhat transposed medieval world with high-tech weaponry I believe the "cultures" should remain intact. Warhammer 40K is very comfortable for me this way, PC or not. It just seems to make sense in that historic cultures are reflected, not revised. Ultras = Romans, Templars = European crusaders, Space Wolves = Nordic Vikings (how awesome is that?) etc. 

The _problem_ I see, is that if you take a politically correct stance on this issue and effectively *force* an ethnic trait or culture where it doesn't fit (like say, forcing GW to say that Fenris is 50% black when we know it is not) just to appease someone who cries to hear their own voice... you really stifle the fans/followers of the lore and make it very uncomfortable for everyone. When a product or story is not aggressively racist, there is no reason to inject race into it. It ends up being unbelievable (so to speak... this IS sci-fi) and usually leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths. Like revisionist history is doing to our culture here in the States. A good example? Making Sir Lancelot of Camelot black because someone gets offended that King Arthur didn't have anyone of his round table made up by someone with noteable ethnicity.

That is complete and utter 'bollocks' I say. Bollocks. (Hope I used that word right.)

The other thing to remember is that GW has given the gamers and lore followers complete license to make anything up they want! Come on... they hand you the brush and tell you to go to town on the canvas any way you want... and someone complains that they didn't do it for them? How much sense does that make? 

"Well the writers extol about mostly white races and cultures. That offends me."

Yeah? Well Hollywood, with its raging hard-on for political correctness and diversity, said that Tom f*cking Cruise was a Samurai. That offends _me_.

You want political correctness or ethnic diversity in Warhammer 40K? Jump on the Tau wagon. Once you're finished with the re-education camps and have learned your place in pure submission and civil obedience, you'll fit right in with all the other races of their cadre of every creed and color. Heck, you may even fit into the US society as it is now. Wouldn't that be a treat?
:laugh:


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## dradcliffe09 (Sep 4, 2009)

I asked my self the same question long ago, in the 2nd Ed 40k days. I simply decided at that point to paint a dark skinned eldar guardian squad, and wouldn't you know it -- they were among the most popular of the paint jobs I did at that time.

So I say make your own mark in the pages of GW history! Paint your self a force of culturally diverse minions and display them the next chance you get. No doubt it will evoke some responses in little or no time at all. 

And BTW, for the old school plastic guardians, I had to shave the original heads off and replace them with bare SM sergeant heads to show the skin color, but it was worth it!


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

If you look in the How to paint Space marines book it has a picture of a black Black Templar (no joke) 
If you think about it, you have a white emperor with white sons (....and a Mongol...?) who pass on thier geneseed that genetically alters them...you have whiteys (....and Mongols...?) anyway, it's also planet-based. Most legions have a homeworld who pick thier initiates from certain tribes meaning it is very controlled and racially void. It makes more sense to have a black Inquisitor or Black Templar because they get recruits from anywhere. I have also seen my share of black Imperial guard...but that's asking for trouble anyway (what with white Commisars. True story that I'm not going to tell......)


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## PandaPaws (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks guys... a informative and intellectual thread that was both a great read and an inspiration for my next army to collect.

To ensure that my IG army has a true sense of both cultural and racial diversity I'll be using South Park's Operation Dark Shield as a basis... /wink


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Skye said:


> If you look in the How to paint Space marines book it has a picture of a black Black Templar (no joke)
> If you think about it, you have a white emperor with white sons (....and a Mongol...?) who pass on thier geneseed that genetically alters them...you have whiteys (....and Mongols...?) anyway, it's also planet-based. Most legions have a homeworld who pick thier initiates from certain tribes meaning it is very controlled and racially void. It makes more sense to have a black Inquisitor or Black Templar because they get recruits from anywhere. I have also seen my share of black Imperial guard...but that's asking for trouble anyway (what with white Commisars. True story that I'm not going to tell......)



White Emperor? The one picture of the Emperor I have seen he is dark skinned. He is suppose to be Turkish.


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## PandaPaws (Sep 23, 2008)

When/where is there any mention of him being 'Turkish'? If you're taking notice of the region of Terra that he's supposedly originated from, what make you so sure that that region will be 'Turkish' in the future? Human racial types have moved across the globe greatly and we're only in the 3rd Millennium!


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

I've only seen the emperor painted white; but back on topic, the Salamanders are *literally* black, and lots of people in BL books i've read have had dark skin/ are black.


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Nah, the Emperor is obviously going to be rather fair-skinned. Who else but a tanned pretty-boy to rule the galaxy. ....I guess he's pretty pale now though....

On a seperate note I have also seen plenty of guardsmen with Native American themes. I'm pretty sure the most diverse Guard example is the kill-team they show in 4th edition.
(An african american, a Native American, a woman, an Englishman looking guy, the works.)


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

Funny thing, just to note: When we play Dark Heresy, on of my gamers rolled his dices for appearence, names, surnames... He is a Tanned man with a moustache, and is named Dorn Ramirez... Funny Shit....


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## Ijustmadethisup4 (Apr 7, 2009)

Sales pitch, who are their clientel? (Clue: suberban middle/upper class white people who have a hint of nerdy in them.)


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> : my SW were nordic so all were white


SWs aren't entirely Vikings, there's also a little bit of Native American influence in there. This is even in the models, Ragnar Blackmane is slightly native american looking (the paint job in the codex, not the one on the GW site).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I never said they were entirely Viking... I said *mine* were nordic 

Have some fluff for your army and stick to it- marines should all have the same skin tones and background simply because of the common genetics, but if you have an IG army then you could certainly play around with it: my nids are all green (ok 4 rippers arent but they too will be when re painted) because that is the common genetic theme for the army- not mixing in kraken/leviathan/behemoth colour schemes isnt in any way xeno racism its just because my hive fleet (Ourobouris) is completely seperate...
I just recon that if you want to have fun with adding in racial variety into your army, and can come up with fluff for it happening then go for it... if you cant its not necessarily racism.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

With regards the emp's origins I think I read somewhere he first appeared in turkey. Not sure where I read it though. Anyone else know?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

It is mentioned in one of the 40k rulebooks. Anatolian region (Turkey).

He is the mythological hero archetype of many cultures combined. 

With regards to the large number of 'white folks' in the game ...

There is such a thing as 'blending'. Certain racial traits will become less pronounced over time and generations unless they remain within their same genotype - and local conditions also play a part. The 'modern' human has not been around for that long, chronologically speaking (yet there are the many different groups among 'humanity'). A blurring of the differences over 38000 years wouldn't be that much of a stretch. 

Some friends of mine have koori ancestry (there are small identifiers in facial shape and features as well as build type) but you wouldn't know it when speaking to them face to face unless you knew what to look for. They look as "white" as I am (and I'm half Romany) but their Grandparents are far different - and of the more 'koori' appearance.

Not to say that some 'cultures' during the 'golden age' did not go off and form their own colony worlds in order to preserve 'their' differences. This is probably the way you that worlds like Tallarn (pre heresy and saturation bombing that reduced it to a desert) and the various other 'theme' worlds in the imperium were founded.


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

True enough. I have a good amount of Native American in me from my mother and me, her, and my two sisters look whiter than white. These days you see a lot of racial blending, so +38000 years from now the only thing that would effect racial diversity is the home-world origins and geneseed implantation.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GabrialSagan said:


> Why is it that everyone in the future is Caucasian?


Because GW have to appeal to the American market, Americans playing with colored models is beyond imagination


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## Endova (Nov 5, 2009)

It seems to me, as Chromedog said, that in the 41st millennium, racial diversity would be pretty much gone, and humanity would have very little ethnic variation left.

I paint all my IG with a Tallarn Flesh basecoat, with usually an Ogryn Flesh wash. In my opinion, that seems to be a good (and I hate this term) "mixed race" skin color.

As for the gamer demographic, I once met a very knowledgeable middle-aged African American at the Games Workshop Store on 8th street. He seemed to know the staff pretty well, and talked to me extensively about the composition of my fledgling Guard army. So, go figure...


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

Well the artists out there are the ones with the paints and the brushes so maybe we should all start thinking outside the box and have multiracial armies. To discover how multiracial the 40k universe really is just read the novels; salamanders are black as night; albino,asian, and black inqisition staff and quite often extreme natural appearances come from the psykers


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

True enough. Skin tone comes from the hand of the painter.


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## Ironwinds (Nov 9, 2009)

In the far far future... all the races mated enough to create one bland looking race.



> Because GW have to appeal to the American market, Americans playing with colored models is beyond imagination


No I have a friend who has a white sorcerer with a pointy hat and white armor.... and a big power 'cross' as a weapon. Calls the sorcerer the 'grand dragon.' Only has the 1 mini but calls the army the Khorne Khoas Killers.

He did it for laughs of course.... or at least I hope:good:. 

I know black gamers though, so I don't see how American's playing with black minis would be beyond imagination.....


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Skye said:


> True enough. Skin tone comes from the hand of the painter.


Spot on.

The joke here [from an eavy metal point of view] is that it is simply due to knowing how to paint different shades... because they have the most experience painting caucasian skin tones... they paint caucasian skin tones.

Individuals are free to paint any colour skin they like, my scout squads have a variety of skin tones [to stop me getting bored] and my DA army i did learn to paint in a more native american shade.

IMO it woiuld be more insulting if GW instructed the eavy metal guys to ensure racial representation. Who knows the racial makeup of the 40th millenium, i sure as hell don't... you could probably paint the skin blue and argue it's a side effect of unique radiation rays from that worlds sun. 

Basically a pointless discussion [which begs the question why i've contributed three paragraphs to it  ]


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