# Could Kh�rn be a perpetual?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

*Could Khârn be a perpetual?*

After all he died on Isstvan III when the Rhino impaled him but he returns to life. Also the older fluff in index Astartes says he's killed again on Terra (hopefully by Sanguinius or Sigismund) but again his body is recovered by the World Eaters and he comes back to life.

In the old fluff it's hinted Khorne himself returns his soul but with the new info about perpetuals, is it more likely Khârn is actually a perpetual?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm not actually sure, but I thought the new fluff left it ambiguous as to whether he ever actually died or not? 

I'm quite sure he survived the incident with the rhino during his duel with Loken, but I don't know for sure about Terra. It is said that he was believed to have been killed, but once they were away his fellow world eaters discovered him to be alive. It's pretty open ended as to whether he actually died or not, leaving it possible that he simply survived his wounds on both occasions. Astartes physiology is remarkably resilient after all. 

That's just my take on it.


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## Felix Fisherman (Jan 13, 2015)

I personally find this perpetual thing confusing and sort of inconsistent. Why the hell is the emperor still sitting on his golden toilet if he is perpetual like Vulkan? Or the GT keeps him from respawning? But Vulkan didn't need to be reborn, he just regrew, until he got stabbed by that spear. Horus didn't have any special weapon to kill perpetuals, yet he seems to have totally incapacitated the big E, who in turn became just a skeleton. And I don't believe in that conspiracy theory that empy in fact was put on the GT against his will. It was Dorn if I remember who put him on the throne... Totally inconsistent. 

And yes, both Lucius and Kharn are perpetuals, although not natural born but because their gods (slaanesh and khorn respectively) don't let them die as they don't want to lose their best champions. Thus Kharn is a perpetual.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Felix Fisherman said:


> I personally find this perpetual thing confusing and sort of inconsistent. Why the hell is the emperor still sitting on his golden toilet if he is perpetual like Vulkan? Or the GT keeps him from respawning? But Vulkan didn't need to be reborn, he just regrew, until he got stabbed by that spear. Horus didn't have any special weapon to kill perpetuals, yet he seems to have totally incapacitated the big E, who in turn became just a skeleton. And I don't believe in that conspiracy theory that empy in fact was put on the GT against his will. It was Dorn if I remember who put him on the throne... Totally inconsistent.
> 
> And yes, both Lucius and Kharn are perpetuals, although not natural born but because their gods (slaanesh and khorn respectively) don't let them die as they don't want to lose their best champions. Thus Kharn is a perpetual.


There seems to be a fuzzy line between certain definitions of perpetual and living saint. Some have to die in order to be respawned. Others just cannot die to begin with. Given the situation I'd say that Emp is the former while Vulkan was the latter. There was a Living Saint in the Czevak novel which was like Vulkan; She couldn't die as her flesh constantly reknitted all wounds she received, but she could be trapped if she was impaled on something and her flesh constantly tried to regrow despite the obstruction. 

I think it likely that these are just different names for the same thing, and like psykers there are different levels and types. 


And frankly, I don't think that's a fitting enough reaosn to call either of those two perpetual. Lucus survives due to his god's direct intervention, and as I said we have no evidence that Kharn has ever even been killed at all.


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## Felix Fisherman (Jan 13, 2015)

It makes things clear, yet Slaanesh's interventions technically make Lucius unkillable. Maybe unless he is killed by a necron or eaten by 'nids. And Kharn, well there is evidence he received wounds that would be lethal for a space marine, even despite his enhanced physiology. But yes, they can't be called perpetual.

I wonder if there are perpetuals amongst other xeno races. Like the eldar or orks (perpetual ork sounds ridiculous but still, maybe there are).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'd hope not - am I the only one who finds the Perpetuals to be a really, really silly storyline that doesn't have a place in the Heresy storyline?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Is the Emperor perpetual? If he is, the irony is that the Throne is keeping him alive, (for a reason only he knows) preventing him from dying and respawning. Hopefully that will be expounded upon (if the old fluff regarding the Emperor imparting Dorn with the knowledge is held to be true).


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## Felix Fisherman (Jan 13, 2015)

Vaz said:


> Is the Emperor perpetual? If he is, the irony is that the Throne is keeping him alive, (for a reason only he knows) preventing him from dying and respawning. Hopefully that will be expounded upon (if the old fluff regarding the Emperor imparting Dorn with the knowledge is held to be true).


Well, yes. He is. Vulkan lives reveals that both Vulkan and the emperor are perpetuals. It's like there are different types of perpetuals. Ones need to be killed completely before they can be reborn and the other ones just regenerate their wounds and a few things can actually kill them forever. 
John Grammaticus was an artificially made perpetual - an eldar autarch who was a member of the cabal made him perpetual. Others are perpetuals from birth.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Is the Emperor perpetual? If he is, the irony is that the Throne is keeping him alive, (for a reason only he knows) preventing him from dying and respawning. Hopefully that will be expounded upon (if the old fluff regarding the Emperor imparting Dorn with the knowledge is held to be true).


In reading your musing, the first thing that popped to mind is the manner of the Emperor's true god-like powers being derived from his 'stealing' them from the Warp. The Emperor might be concerned that if he actually died, the power making him the Emperor wouldn't come back with him. Vulcan is reincarnated as himself, if a little worse for wear in the mental stability department.

Can you imagine, in a room full of the Ecclisiarch, Custodes, and High Lords of Terra all standing around the Corpse Emperor as the Golden Throne fails, only to see a big puff of smoke and out strides a hale and hearty Joe Average who looks at them and says, "Hi I'm Barry, you want fries with that?"


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Felix Fisherman said:


> Well, yes. He is. Vulkan lives reveals that both Vulkan and the emperor are perpetuals. It's like there are different types of perpetuals. Ones need to be killed completely before they can be reborn and the other ones just regenerate their wounds and a few things can actually kill them forever.


There also seem to be ones that will live forever if they avoid getting killed, but if they are killed they stay dead. 



> John Grammaticus was an artificially made perpetual - an eldar autarch who was a member of the cabal made him perpetual. Others are perpetuals from birth.


He's not artificial, he's been around for Millenia before humanity came across the Eldar. IIRC Oll Persson mentions fighting alongside him in WWI, and I think in Legion Grammaticus insinuates he hung around with the Emperor for years. However, his powers did seem to fade for some reason, and the last couple of times he came back was with the aid of the Eldar.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> He's not artificial, he's been around for Millenia before humanity came across the Eldar. IIRC Oll Persson mentions fighting alongside him in WWI, and I think in Legion Grammaticus insinuates he hung around with the Emperor for years. However, his powers did seem to fade for some reason, and the last couple of times he came back was with the aid of the Eldar.


Didn't he mention dieing multiple times.....could it be like Doctor Who, he has a finite number of 'reincarnations', though it's been 3-5+ years since I've read legion.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Felix Fisherman said:


> Well, yes. He is. Vulkan lives reveals that both Vulkan and the emperor are perpetuals. It's like there are different types of perpetuals. Ones need to be killed completely before they can be reborn and the other ones just regenerate their wounds and a few things can actually kill them forever.
> John Grammaticus was an artificially made perpetual - an eldar autarch who was a member of the cabal made him perpetual. Others are perpetuals from birth.


I cannot remember where it states the Emperor is a perpetual (although it makes sense, given Vulkan's nature), but Vulkan does actually die each and every time.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

John is artifical...(though I guess we're not 100% sure how others are made, but he's artificial in the sense that he wasn't born one.)

_Legion_ says, "Grammaticus was beginning to think he had been a fool to accept the Cabal’s gift of reincarnation. He began to wish, honestly and absolutely, that his first death had been his only death."

It also states that, as of M.31 John was a thousand years old.

Oll is considerably older. I think he fought back in the...Roman? Greek days. Been a while since I read that short story.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

hailene said:


> John is artifical...(though I guess we're not 100% sure how others are made, but he's artificial in the sense that he wasn't born one.)
> 
> _Legion_ says, "Grammaticus was beginning to think he had been a fool to accept the Cabal’s gift of reincarnation. He began to wish, honestly and absolutely, that his first death had been his only death."
> 
> ...


I think the earliest it mentions Oll being around is during the Viking Age. I don't remember it saying if he was around any earlier than that.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

He mentions traveling to Colchis...which was founded back in the 13th century BCE and destroyed in the 2nd century BCE. This Colchis "was still a kingdom on the Black Sea". And he remembers rowing towards it.

He also talks about a "Cyclades warship"...Cyclades is a Greek island.

He also remembers watching out for Sarmatian riders. Those would have been somewhere in the 5th century BCE to 4th century CE.

He also talks about someone named Gaius who's on "the Wall"...talking about Galician girls. I can't pin point which Gaius that is, but it's some Roman I assume.

He also remembers hearing a man speak in a strong Scythian accent about bronze stirrups (those guys were giving China all sorts of pain back in the 8th century BCE).

So he's pretty old.


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## Felix Fisherman (Jan 13, 2015)

And what happened to Oll? Is he still alive? I don't remember much about him. 

Yes he is way older than John. And yes, the emperor is perpetual, but I assume the custodes, the ecclesiarchy etc don't know what kind of perpetual he is. Maybe the throne doesn't let his crippled skeleton die completely but it also keeps him from being born again. Maybe no, maybe he is just ageless - unaffected by age but actually he can be killed if he takes damage beyond recovery. He's just an extremely powerful psyker. Frankly I don't believe GW will ever advance the plot to this point. 40k needs to remain grimdark. If the emperor gets ressurected somehow it will give humanity its second chance (the great crusade was first). Humanity is doomed. But the game goes on. Same thing with the eldar. Everyone says they're a dying race yet they will never die out completely henci it would have made the whole (!) army disappear from the game... Do you really think GW will remove an army from the game which is a money maker (one could hate on the eldar, still they are popular enough). Same goes for the nids/crons/chaos. They will always be the bad guys of 40k posing a considerable threat to the imperium. They are all armies that help GW make money...

Sorry for off-topic


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm thinking that the Emperor and the Imperium can't afford the time it'd take the Emperor to reincarnate. Not with him guiding the Astronomican and holding the daemons in the Webway at bay.

We've seen Vulkan and Oll take at least some hours to recover (though admittedly Vulkan started coming back faster and faster...though that seemed correlated with the amount of times he died. Since the Emperor has yet to die...), I don't think it'd be worth it.

Then again if we hit the Godzilla Threshold, maybe allowing thousands of ships to be lost in the Warp and having Terra overrun by daemons might be a valid choice.


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## Felix Fisherman (Jan 13, 2015)

hailene said:


> I'm thinking that the Emperor and the Imperium can't afford the time it'd take the Emperor to reincarnate. Not with him guiding the Astronomican and holding the daemons in the Webway at bay.
> 
> We've seen Vulkan and Oll take at least some hours to recover (though admittedly Vulkan started coming back faster and faster...though that seemed correlated with the amount of times he died. Since the Emperor has yet to die...), I don't think it'd be worth it.
> 
> Then again if we hit the Godzilla Threshold, maybe allowing thousands of ships to be lost in the Warp and having Terra overrun by daemons might be a valid choice.


This.

Even if the empy gets disconnected from the GT for a second the Astronomical will fade out and thousands of ships will be immediately lost in the warp for ever. The daemons will take over Terra and slaughter everyone in their path. It's a nutshell. 

I believe the big E would get pissed if he saw what the imperium had become now. Doesn't really look like his dream for humanity as a dominating race in the galaxy  He would have to start everything over again.

I've also hear another theory (quite unlikely though). The eldar god of healing and rejuvenation Isha is kept in Nurgle's cage and Nurgle tests all his brand new diseases on her, watching how long it takes her to recover, as she can heal absolutely anything. So if she gets freed from there she might be able to heal the emperor. Maybe some of the lost primarchs (Russ?) finds her... The point is if anyone was able to heal the emperor without ripping him off the GT thus letting him die, it would make things a bit easier.


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## Ultramarine (Mar 21, 2014)

Felix Fisherman said:


> Maybe some of the lost primarchs (Russ?) finds her....


I don't think Russ would treat with an Eldar "God" if he were to stay true to the fluff and somehow he were to make it into Nurgles lair and survives I think he'd either try to slay her himself of leave her to her fate.

But that's just what I see Russ doing.

But back on topic. I think Kharn isn't a perpetual. I think he was just too much of a boon for his patron god to let him die. If Gods can glimpse into the future he could have possibly seen how many skulls he has reaped and decided to let him live.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I would not exactly say that Kharn is a perpetual, simply favored. It is stated that Kharn died on Terra and his lifeless body was brought back aboard the ship, but it is never stated he died on Istvaan III. I would rule this more as his gods favor than being a perpetual. 

Outside of the established perpetuals, I would argue Justicar Thawn of the Grey Knights is in fact a perpetual. Unlike Kharn and Lucius, he has no god who favors him, he is brought back time and time again for seemingly no reason... Other than buffing the grey Knight fluff.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> I would not exactly say that Kharn is a perpetual, simply favored. It is stated that Kharn died on Terra and his lifeless body was brought back aboard the ship, but it is never stated he died on Istvaan III. I would rule this more as his gods favor than being a perpetual.
> 
> Outside of the established perpetuals, I would argue Justicar Thawn of the Grey Knights is in fact a perpetual. Unlike Kharn and Lucius, he has no god who favors him, he is brought back time and time again for seemingly no reason... Other than buffing the grey Knight fluff.


He is a perpetual
From the short story: The Ghost Halls
The spiritseer’s haste was evident. Returned to his own craftworld and with the waystones of Malan’tai restored to the infinity circuit, he now made for the farseer enclave. He alone had been made emissary for the council. The message that he bore was simple, but filled with grave import. They would need to know. ‘The mon-keigh have rediscovered the last Perpetual – Anval Thawn has ascended to the ranks of the Grey Knights. I await your guidance.’


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The 7th edition Codex: Grey Knights mentions nothing about Thawn being a Perpetual - he's simply stated as dying at the hands of N'kari during the cleansing of Malan'tai.

I'd also question the author of this _Ghost Halls_ on his knowledge of Grey Knight fluff - it's fairly important in their lore that Grey Knights get their identities completely broken down and rebuilt with a new name given to them that is the counterpart to a particular Daemon's true name.

On the other hand, there are multiple Anval Thawns, more than one of whom I'm sure is promoted to Justicar.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Wow, I didn't think I'd get so many responses. Thanks everyone. I'd not thought about Lucius so thanks for pointing him out as well. Well I hope the question is settled one way or the other in the battle for Terra


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> The 7th edition Codex: Grey Knights mentions nothing about Thawn being a Perpetual - he's simply stated as dying at the hands of N'kari during the cleansing of Malan'tai.
> 
> I'd also question the author of this _Ghost Halls_ on his knowledge of Grey Knight fluff - it's fairly important in their lore that Grey Knights get their identities completely broken down and rebuilt with a new name given to them that is the counterpart to a particular Daemon's true name.
> 
> On the other hand, there are multiple Anval Thawns, more than one of whom I'm sure is promoted to Justicar.


Its Laurie Goulding whom wrote The Ghost Halls. They also did the recent Incorruptible and Mortarions Heart.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> I would not exactly say that Kharn is a perpetual, simply favored. It is stated that Kharn died on Terra and his lifeless body was brought back aboard the ship, but it is never stated he died on Istvaan III. I would rule this more as his gods favor than being a perpetual.
> 
> Outside of the established perpetuals, I would argue Justicar Thawn of the Grey Knights is in fact a perpetual. Unlike Kharn and Lucius, he has no god who favors him, he is brought back time and time again for seemingly no reason... Other than buffing the grey Knight fluff.


I don't remember where but there was a tidbit that went into exactly what being a perpetual meant to thrawn. It had something to do with survivors guilt.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I think it was hinted at that Oll was a part of the Argonites (on the ship _Argo_) as well. I wouldn't call Khârn or Lucius a Perpetual, as I would say they are a breed of their own with traits that remind of those of the perpetuals. I believe in _Vulkan Lives_ (which I haven't read yet) it is hinted at that the Emperor is an Perpetual and that as all his sons got a trait of the Emperor. Vulkan got his undying Perpetual abillity.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I don't think being a Perpetual is a real thing. I think its their term to describe being an immortal. Grammaticus describes himself as being "artificial" while Ollie is an organic perpetual. Kharn however is not a perpetual. He has the favor or Khorne and therefore is there is warp power that is sponsoring his vitality. The same is true of Lucius who is more of a parasite than an immortal. I don't believe that the Emperor is a human being in the sense as we perceive it. I think he is a power that inhabited a man or a man who evolved into a power. His physical appearance is based on perception and not reality which Lorgar described as "facelessness."

While being a perpetual has not been defined, I think it is a general term for immortals but this does not describe a lot of the immortals we see. While I believe the Saints are perpetuals and so is Ollie, that's it. The Emperor is something else and I don't believe the term human describes it. The fact that creatures from the warp that have observed and focused on humanity for countless eons describe him as not human is extremely telling. Creatures bred from human emotion would know a human when they saw one because of possible possession, summoning, and seduction potentials. They look at the Emperor and see something else entirely than a human and I don't think it's just the power. He possessed Malcador to speak with his son Corax. His face and body take different shapes and sizes to where his own genetic progeny can barely perceive his true visage. I'm waiting for the novel or codex that explains that.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Felix Fisherman said:


> This.
> 
> Even if the empy gets disconnected from the GT for a second the Astronomical will fade out and thousands of ships will be immediately lost in the warp for ever. The daemons will take over Terra and slaughter everyone in their path. It's a nutshell.


Off-topic from the OP, but the Emperor directs the Astronomican, while the thousands of psykers sacrificed every day actually provide the raw power. That being the case, I wonder about the Astronomican fading if the Emperor is removed from the Golden Throne, or if it would still be relatively visible from the Warp.

It might be a moot point considering how close the City of Silence is to the GT, and the daemons would most certainly see all those bright psychic beacons like a stoner with a buffet.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Asterion_Moloc

Asterion Moloc appears to be a perpetual as well.

There are apparently seven different events where he was reported killed in action yet his body was recovered alive. Could just be luck that he managed to survive seven times on the brink of death though.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

ffs. Anything where some one comes back from the dead theyare automatically a perpetual? No. 

Just stop it.

Moloc is the cover used by several Chapter Masters of the Minotaurs as his Dread Reputation is the worth more than him being allowed to be known as killed.


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