# C`tan



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Something else just sprang to mind. The necron codex says that the necrontyr found many c`tan and that these creatures were eventually pitted against each other when the harvsts grew thin. It says that four remain, but is that absolute?

I mean, what if, hypothetically, a certain necron lord realized that he could give form to another star god? It says nowhere (that I`m aware of) that ALL of the c`tan had been discovered. What if said Necron Lord decided to summon a few more to join the harvest. Surely they have the technology to detect, communicate and manifest these beings, so what I don`t understand is why they haven`t.

I doubt the existing c`tan would smile on this, but ultimately, what could they do if it happened? Maybe it already has happened...:shok:

Then again, maybe not. What do you think?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

While it's true we don't know if there are any other Ctan, it's highly unlikely.

They took most probably billions of years to become what they were and if any others survived, they would have made thier presence known.

The Necrons are slaves to the Ctan and in no way related, they can't spawn/summon them (they made contact with their entire race prior to becoming slaves)


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Where does it say the ENTIRE race was contacted?
I do not mean summon in the sense of daemons, but what if some of the c`tan were not contacted? What if some are still living their original existence, feeding on stars? They only became aware of matter after the necrontyr communicated with them.
What I`m theorizing is that there may be more, still in their original state of existence utterly unaware of everything else that is going on. Though I doubt it as well, I just thought it would be interesting if the Necrons contacte more of them.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Where does it say the ENTIRE race was contacted?
> I do not mean summon in the sense of daemons, but what if some of the c`tan were not contacted? What if some are still living their original existence, feeding on stars? They only became aware of matter after the necrontyr communicated with them.
> What I`m theorizing is that there may be more, still in their original state of existence utterly unaware of everything else that is going on. Though I doubt it as well, I just thought it would be interesting if the Necrons contacte more of them.


Well one of the Ctan went on an eating spree and consumed a lot of them and the rest warred with one another.

So I doubt there were some neutral Ctan watching things in the background sipping on some sun juice.

The Necrons are slaves, they lack free will and obey one or all of the remaining Ctans, they can't do anything but what they are ordered to do.

I don't see why the remaining Ctan would want to contact any other potential survivors especially since they've always been competing with one another to the point of extinction.


----------



## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Where does it say the ENTIRE race was contacted?
> I do not mean summon in the sense of daemons, but what if some of the c`tan were not contacted? What if some are still living their original existence, feeding on stars? They only became aware of matter after the necrontyr communicated with them.
> What I`m theorizing is that there may be more, still in their original state of existence utterly unaware of everything else that is going on. Though I doubt it as well, I just thought it would be interesting if the Necrons contacte more of them.


Let us think here, the necrotyr are gone they no longer have any sense of self they are merely slaves to the star gods. Even assuming that the Eldar and old ones didn't kill all the remaining star gods in this galaxy, then they couldn't be manifested by the necrontyr because they don't exist. But wait! let us try to imagine a rather young not particularly long lived race technologicly advanced and naive. Who springs to mind? :biggrin::grin:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> While it's true we don't know if there are any other Ctan, it's highly unlikely.


Back in the second edition (before the C'tan background was released) Rick Priestley included a mention of the 'quiescent perils of the C'tan' nothing more than that, except that 'they lay beyond the Gates of Varl.'

Now, the Gates of Varl are at the galatic core where the stars and systems are extremley dense. This in itself could support the idea of C'tan inhabiting the area in their natural form. They would be C'tan that went undiscovered by the Necrontyr and thus are merely feeding on stars as all C'tan were prior to being discovered by the Necrontyr.

So personally I find it perfectly plausable that there are more C'tan in the galaxy (most likely near the galactic core), but they would be unable to interact with the material realms unless discovered and channelled into true physical form by a capable species (which couldn't be the Necrons seeing as 'only a few of the very strongest retained their intellect and even they were shadows of their former selves').



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Necrons are slaves to the Ctan and in no way related, they can't spawn/summon them (they made contact with their entire race prior to becoming slaves)


It doesn't state the _entire_ C'tan species were contacted.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hate to say it but the 4 remaining C'tan are almost certainly the last ones left. Not to mention the Necrons have not been a unified race for a incredibly long time. As to the idea of a missing C'tan making contact its not bloody likely since such a C'tan would be vary reluctant to make himself know especially to the likes of the Deceiver, or heaven forbid the the void dragon or the other ass hole. 

I mean most c'tan especially the weak pathetic ones that would have hid or ran from the night bringer would not be worth mentioning. I mean after the war in heaven most c'tan would stay as far away as possible from the remaining big for especial the insane one, the I'm going to eat you one, and the prick who almost made your race extinct one.

In other words even if their where other c'tan they would have no interest in the section of space under the control of those that almost made them all extinct its just common %$#$% sense. On a positive not to stop this from depressing necron players when the new codex is released they will be moving the night bringer to appoc only so you can finally get a taste of how insanely over powered he really is.

I imagine he will be something like T10 W6+ save 2+/4+ with a bunch of retarded unbalanced rules.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

If there are other C'tan out there it's completely irrelevant, as the necron are in no shape to build forms for them and all other races know better.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> and all other races know better.


Thats a bit of a sweeping generalisation and also quite frankly false.

The Necrontyr at first saw the C'tan as a simple weapon to utilise against the hated Old Ones, they didn't envision themselves being enslaved. And not to mention that basically no one in the galaxy knows about the C'tan anyway (Prominent exception being the Eldar).

Regardless though, I doubt that any race in existence actually has the technology and means available to actually communicate with a C'tan.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I think it's extremely likely that there are C'tan who never made the transference to the same state of the 4 star gods, there would surely be countless thousands, even millions, of C'tan and I doubt more than a small percentage were ever contacted by the Necrontyr.

Now I agree with everyone else in that I don't believe they could be contacted by the mortal races.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> they didn't envision themselves being enslaved.


Debatable 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And not to mention that basically no one in the galaxy knows about the C'tan anyway (Prominent exception being the Eldar).


Uriel Ventris and a handful of other Ultramarines.

I'm sure some higher ups know of them as well, & the Cullux (sp) assassins as well.



Baron Spikey said:


> there would surely be countless thousands, even millions, of C'tan


Doubt it, the Ctan are the oldest living things in the material realm and they are massive beings that feed on even bigger stars.

For such a race to evolve to such massive proportions, it would undoubtedly take billions if not trillions of years to evolve and if they were a vastly populated race, we would see a lot less stars.



Baron Spikey said:


> I doubt more than a small percentage were ever contacted by the Necrontyr.
> 
> I think it's extremely likely that there are C'tan who never made the transference to the same state of the 4 star gods


And what Ctan would pass up the opportunity to feed on some mortals and enjoy ruling over lesser races as opposed to sleepily snacking on some stars without anyone noticing. 

The Ctan love their new found power and I doubt the Necrons wouldn't have asked/found a way to contact all of the Ctan (or that a few Ctan would've gotten the sweet necrodermis deal without being noticed by other Ctan) in their desperate bid to defeat the Old Ones.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> there would surely be countless thousands, even millions, of C'tan


Doubt it, the Ctan are the oldest living things in the material realm and they are massive beings that feed on even bigger stars.

For such a race to evolve to such massive proportions, it would undoubtedly take billions if not trillions of years to evolve and if they were a vastly populated race, we would see a lot less stars.



Baron Spikey said:


> I doubt more than a small percentage were ever contacted by the Necrontyr.
> 
> I think it's extremely likely that there are C'tan who never made the transference to the same state of the 4 star gods


And what Ctan would pass up the opportunity to feed on some mortals and enjoy ruling over lesser races as opposed to sleepily snacking on some stars without anyone noticing. 

The Ctan love their new found power and I doubt the Necrons wouldn't have asked/found a way to contact all of the Ctan in their desperate bid to defeat the Old Ones.

[/QUOTE]


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

To sum up the general response of all the posts in this thread so far, it is vary likely that the current 4 are the only remaining star gods. Which makes sense when you consider even back in their hay day their where vary few compared to any other race. 

I mean just think about it this way C'tan are like the apex predator of the universe, up their with the chaos gods. Now in any ecosystem their always has to be substantially less predators then pray, and since the C'tan are at the top and need billions of lives just to feel satiated for a time it would be impossible even back at their apex that their where ever be even a thousand C'tan, since it would have been impossible for any sized universe to sustain them, even if the had enough restraint to limit themselves to 1 for every 3 galaxies.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The C'tan didn't evolve they are the first race, nothing to evolve from- and the C'tan only gained a appreciation of the mortal realm when they transferred into their Necrodermis vessels- so it's not inconceivable that C'tan who didn't make that transference wouldn't know what they were missing.

And they might have been the apex predator due to their power but judging their numbers by the races that emerged millions of years after them and who the C'tan had no interest for millions of years after that is just silly. With billions of stars to feed from and each star sustaining a C'tan for millions of years the racial population could have been vast.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The C'tan didn't evolve they are the first race, nothing to evolve from-


So they just popped into existence, BOOM, huge Ctan?



Baron Spikey said:


> and the C'tan only gained a appreciation of the mortal realm when they transferred into their Necrodermis vessels- so it's not inconceivable that C'tan who didn't make that transference wouldn't know what they were missing.


Again as I pointed out, do you think a few Ctan would have accepted the deal (a huge event where they first dealt with mortal races from a different dimension), and love the results without other Ctan finding out?



Baron Spikey said:


> And they might have been the apex predator due to their power but judging their numbers by the races that emerged millions of years after them


Tiny races in comparison to huge star sized races = bigger numbers. Pretty simple.



Baron Spikey said:


> and who the C'tan had no interest for millions of years after that is just silly.


They were unaware of the dimension through which the mortal races dwelled?



Baron Spikey said:


> With billions of stars to feed from and each star sustaining a C'tan for millions of years the racial population could have been vast.


First, we don't know how many stars have been devoured by the Ctan in comparison to how many currently exist and second, we don't know how quickly or slowly it takes a Ctan to devour a star.

It's just logical that such large physical beings could not possibly thrive in the millions +


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So they just popped into existence, BOOM, huge Ctan?


Actually yes, they formed when the stars did and some even stayed with the star they formed nearest for millions of years



Malus Darkblade said:


> Again as I pointed out, do you think a few Ctan would have accepted the deal (a huge event where they first dealt with mortal races from a different dimension), and love the results without other Ctan finding out?


How would the other C'tan find out as you put it? The Necrontyr had to spend aeons just conversing with a single C'tan as it couldn't appreciate any contact of a lesser time period and there's nothing to suggest the C'tan ever communicated with each other when in energy form.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Tiny races in comparison to huge star sized races = bigger numbers. Pretty simple.
> 
> They were unaware of the dimension through which the mortal races dwelled?


I'm not saying that some races didn't have larger numbers than the C'tan just that the C'tan as a race still had a vast population (though the term population is misleading as I doubt they ever actually interacted in their energy form) and yes they were completely oblivious to the mortal races, and planets in general, until the Nightbringer was contacted by the Necrontyr.




Malus Darkblade said:


> First, we don't know how many stars have been devoured by the Ctan in comparison to how many currently exist and second, we don't know how quickly or slowly it takes a Ctan to devour a star.
> 
> It's just logical that such large physical beings could not possibly thrive in the millions +


Well we know that the Nightbringer was shortening the lifespan of the Necrontyr's star by millions of year and most star have a life span measured in the billions of years so that's certainly indicative that the Nightbringer could have contentedly leeched the star's energies for millions of years before he would be require to move on, in fact the Necrontyr star was the Nightbringer's 'home' star so for the time period required for the Necrontyr to evolve on their planet would suggest the Nightbringer had been feasting for millions of years.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats a bit of a sweeping generalisation and also quite frankly false.


Perhaps better phrasing is in order, then. The current philosophies of each race make it unlikely that tapping into the C'tan would seem like a prudent option if they were fully aware of their nature. The Imperium hates everyone that isn't human, chaos and orks have their own gods, the eldar _do_ know better, the tyranids rely too much on the warp, and the tau ... actually, maybe the tau would be interested. 

There are, of course, exceptions. If the C'tan can pass itself off as a god the Imperium likes (like the Void Dragon may or may not have) then the Imperium may be keen on worshipping one, but it will likely never develop the technology to contact or manifest one. So the existence of more C'tan is still a moot point. There may be more, there may not be. It doesn't mean a thing in the grand scope of things.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Let me pose another question, then.

We can pretty safely assume that the Void Dragon is sealed on Mars. (Mechanicum and Nec Codex)

The Nightbringer is feeding on the star Cyclo. (Nightbringer and Nec Codex)

The Outsider was imprisoned by the Eldar. (Nec Codex and DoW Tempest I think. I know I read it somewhere.)

The Deceiver is playing around with the mechanicum. (Nec Codex and Deus ex Mechanicus)


In DoW Ascension, there is a "yngir" in stasis below Rahe`s Paradise. When the Capital "yngir" ship is destroyed, a figure is seen as the ship breaks apart and is described as "a star god caught in his own inferno".

No mere necron could withstand such an explosion, not even a Lord. So who was this?:dunno:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Debatable


So when the Nightbringer was discovered on their star, they knew then that they would have ended up a slave race to these 'children of the stars'? No, the C'tan were simply viewed as weapons at that point.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Uriel Ventris and a handful of other Ultramarines.


I havn't read _Nightbringer_ myself, but I was under the impression that they just thought it was some powerful Xenos creature, rather than knowing and comprehending that it was actually a C'tan, and knowing what such a thing meant.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm sure some higher ups know of them as well, & the Cullux (sp) assassins as well.


Well a few would obviously know, generally from old Eldar myths. But my point still stands; next to no one in the galaxy knows anything about the C'tan. So even if there were natural, undiscovered C'tan through the Gates of Varl or anywhere else it would be a herculean task to even discover them, let alone contact them.



Malus Darkblade said:


> For such a race to evolve to such massive proportions, it would undoubtedly take billions if not trillions of years to evolve


And they have been around for billions if not trillions of years. But as the Baron said, they didn't evolve as there was nothing to evolve from, essentially they just burst into existence.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And what Ctan would pass up the opportunity to feed on some mortals and enjoy ruling over lesser races as opposed to sleepily snacking on some stars without anyone noticing.


The C'tan pre-Necrodermis weren't even aware of mortal races and what delights enslaving and feeding on them could bring. C'tan in their natural form wouldn't even register entire planets on their hunger/desire to feed.

'They paid no heed to the hunks of solid matter which they passed in the void, the internal fires and pulsing electromagnetism of these new-born planets insufficient to even register on their monstrous hunger.' -Page 24 Necron codex

'As the C'tan became ever more manifest with the focusing of their consciousness, they began to appreciate the subtleties and pleasures of both matter and life' - Page 24 Necron Codex



LukeValantine said:


> Which makes sense when you consider even back in their hay day their where vary few compared to any other race.


source?



LukeValantine said:


> Now in any ecosystem their always has to be substantially less predators then pray, and since the C'tan are at the top and need billions of lives just to feel satiated for a time it would be impossible even back at their apex that their where ever be even a thousand C'tan, since it would have been impossible for any sized universe to sustain them, even if the had enough restraint to limit themselves to 1 for every 3 galaxies.


Naturally the C'tan fed off of Stars, of which its safe to assume outnumber the C'tan. Their incarnation into the Necrodermis was not a natural occurence therefore the natural ecosystem rules do not apply.




Malus Darkblade said:


> They were unaware of the dimension through which the mortal races dwelled?


In short, Yes - Planets and Mortal Races didn't even register on the consciousness of the C'tan. Its all written in the Necron codex.



K3k3000 said:


> if they were fully aware of their nature.


Thats exactly it though, I think its safe to assume that the vast majority of races/species in the galaxy are not fully aware of the C'tan or their nature.



K3k3000 said:


> So the existence of more C'tan is still a moot point. There may be more, there may not be. It doesn't mean a thing in the grand scope of things.


Quite possibly. Although I don't think such a thing is completely beyond the realms of possibility. The Necrontyr managed to achieve such a thing via science and technology, something which other races are capable of achieving. Perhaps even the Tau some day may be able to contact and manifest a C'tan for example.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So when the Nightbringer was discovered on their star, they knew then that they would have ended up a slave race to these 'children of the stars'? No, the C'tan were simply viewed as weapons at that point.


They went from being desperate to win to pure blind hatred of the Old Ones borne out of jealousy and resentment.

They knew that without the Old Ones helping them, they would continue to live their short and brief lives.

I'm not saying that they were aware or not aware that accepting the help of the Ctan would lead to their eventual position as slaves. 

They were too intelligent not to think of all the possibilities and to be frank I don't know how the Ctan came to control them. The Ctan didn't create the necrodermis and you would think the Necrons would know what the capabilities of the necrodermis would be.

Also they didn't become slaves lacking their free will straight away, whenever they died, their essence would be transferred and each time it would eat away at their free will.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I havn't read _Nightbringer_ myself, but I was under the impression that they just thought it was some powerful Xenos creature, rather than knowing and comprehending that it was actually a C'tan, and knowing what such a thing meant.


It's been a while but I recall that he got glimpses of the nightbringer's mind/vision and realized what it was.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And they have been around for billions if not trillions of years. But as the Baron said, they didn't evolve as there was nothing to evolve from, essentially they just burst into existence.


Meh I suppose.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The C'tan pre-Necrodermis weren't even aware of mortal races and what delights enslaving and feeding on them could bring. C'tan in their natural form wouldn't even register entire planets on their hunger/desire to feed.
> 
> 'They paid no heed to the hunks of solid matter which they passed in the void, the internal fires and pulsing electromagnetism of these new-born planets insufficient to even register on their monstrous hunger.' -Page 24 Necron codex
> 
> 'As the C'tan became ever more manifest with the focusing of their consciousness, they began to appreciate the subtleties and pleasures of both matter and life' - Page 24 Necron Codex




As I mentioned, the Ctan obviously would have some sort of connection with one another and I don't think the Ctan who didn't make the necrodermis deal would be unaware of the ones who did.

And the Necrons would most likely ask for the assistance of all of them in their fight against the Old ones and their many creations.

-----

One thing that confuses me is the gates of varl and what exactly empowers the Ctan's abilities.

Are the Ctan naturally from a different dimension or just some obscure part of the galaxy (gates of varl) ?

And its been said that these gates are an eldar prison of some sorts?

And this has always puzzeled me, for what could empower the ctan to a) enslave the necrons b)assume different forms c)have various abilities all without the use of the warp? It would indicate that the dimension/part where the Ctan are naturally from has a completely different source of power, something that is not the warp at all.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> they didn't envision themselves being enslaved.





Malus Darkblade said:


> Debatable





Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm not saying that they were aware or not aware that accepting the help of the Ctan would lead to their eventual position as slaves.


Sounds like you at least suggested it.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't know how the Ctan came to control them.


"The Necrontyr fell into awe at their discovery, and the C'tan quickly took control. The powers of the C'tan were indeed those of gods and it was not long before the C'tan became truly worshipped as such..." - Page 24 Necron codex.

Although it gives us no specifics its safe to assume that their unparalleled power and sudden craving for worship and slaves put them in the perfect position for taking over rule of the Necrontyr Empire. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also they didn't become slaves lacking their free will straight away, whenever they died, their essence would be transferred and each time it would eat away at their free will.


I don't know where you getting that from.

"...But their race was utterly purged, becoming instead the Necrons and cursing themselves to eternal servitude of their star-born gods. The C'tan feasted upon their entire race, leaving behind only ghostly echoes of the Necrontyr. Only a few of the very strongest retained their intellect and even they were shadows of their former selves." - Page 25 Necron codex.

No where does it state their free will was eroded over time. It states the C'tan 'feasted' on the entire Necrontyr race and of that feast the Necrons were born. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> As I mentioned, the Ctan obviously would have some sort of connection with one another and I don't think the Ctan who didn't make the necrodermis deal would be unaware of the ones who did.


Thats quite a large assumption. No where does it state that the C'tan would have had some form of connection to each other. Its perfectly plausable that as mortal races and planets were not even comprehended or registered by the C'tan, that the initial deals of the Nightbringer and the successive C'tan went unnoticed in other parts of the galaxy/universe where natural C'tan plausably resided. Its also fairly probable that C'tan inhabit other galaxies as well.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And the Necrons would most likely ask for the assistance of all of them in their fight against the Old ones and their many creations.


If they managed to discover them all.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And this has always puzzeled me, for what could empower the ctan to a) enslave the necrons b)assume different forms c)have various abilities all without the use of the warp?


Their innate energy essentially. 

"...formed of insensate energies unleashed in that churning mass of unimaginable force."

"...here was the weapon the Necrontyr had sought, the children of the stars themselves - progeny of their death-god to cast down the Old Ones."

"The power of these creatures was awesome, the raw energy of stars made animate..."

"The entities were dispersed across areas larger than planets, their consciousness too vast to comprehend."

"Incomprehensible forces were compressed into the living metal of the false bodies which the Necrontyr had forged as the full power of the C'tan found form."

"The C'tan wield the primal energies of creation. Their power is such that they can defy natural laws and alter the fabric of reality itself."

Those quotes may give us some indication of their power and where it comes from.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It would indicate that the dimension/part where the Ctan are naturally from has a completely different source of power, something that is not the warp at all.


Not at all. Essentially the C'tan harnessed the energy that powered and birthed stars. When they were transferred into Necrodermis, this vast and incomprehensible amount of energy was compressed into a form that could interact with the material universe as we percieve it.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

@Malus- you've got to stop thinking of the C'tan as anything like any other race in the 40K Galaxy, we're carbon-based corporeal life forms whereas they're essentially sentient Nebulas, in their natural forms they undoubtedly look like nothing more than a vast blanket of energy larger than a star (and that's if the energy wavelength can even be detected).


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

youknow what i think 

i think that ther eare no more ctan i also believe that hey the void dragon is on mars and since the mechanicus guys like all thoses implants and stuff this how the void dragons gets powere. some where in the fluff it says that emperor put the void dragon there. also the laughing god is really the deciever and yes the star gods do have an affect on mortal races since in the codex it states the nightbringer has but the fear of death in all races maind except one Orks. oh yeah the chaos gods also fear the ctan too


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> youknow what i think
> 
> i think that ther eare no more ctan i also believe that hey the void dragon is on mars and since the mechanicus guys like all thoses implants and stuff this how the void dragons gets powere. some where in the fluff it says that emperor put the void dragon there. also the laughing god is really the deciever and yes the star gods do have an affect on mortal races since in the codex it states the nightbringer has but the fear of death in all races maind except one Orks. oh yeah the chaos gods also fear the ctan too


The laughing god is not the deceiver. Cegorach is the laughing god of the eldar harlequns and is said to reside in the webway beyond the reach of Slaanesh. The Deceiver is otherwise known as the Jackal God. Though there is some some confusion as to their roles during the war in heaven, but you can`t expect much else considering they are of a similar characer to one another, specialising in lies and manipulation.
Try to know your fluff a bit better before you make stupid assumptions. (And work on your horrible grammar as well.):nono:


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The laughing god is not the deceiver. Cegorach is the laughing god of the eldar harlequns and is said to reside in the webway beyond the reach of Slaanesh. The Deceiver is otherwise known as the Jackal God. Though there is some some confusion as to their roles during the war in heaven, but you can`t expect much else considering they are of a similar characer to one another, specialising in lies and manipulation.
> Try to know your fluff a bit better before you make stupid assumptions. (And work on your horrible grammar as well.):nono:


well my bad i dont know everything and sorry my grammar sux you dont have to insult me


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> well my bad i dont know everything and sorry my grammar sux you dont have to insult me



Didn`t mean to belittle you, I`m sorry. Like my sign says, don`t take me too seriously. I don`t know everything either.

Which end of the gun do the bullets go in?


----------



## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Try to know your fluff a bit better before you make stupid assumptions. (And work on your horrible grammar as well.):nono:


It is understandable why he made that mistake, it's been clearly stated that the Laughing God and the Deciever have imitated each other countless times over the years


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> oh yeah the chaos gods also fear the ctan too


Source/Evidence?



Serpion5 said:


> The laughing god is not the deceiver. Cegorach is the laughing god of the eldar harlequns and is said to reside in the webway beyond the reach of Slaanesh. The Deceiver is otherwise known as the Jackal God. Though there is some some confusion as to their roles during the war in heaven, but you can`t expect much else considering they are of a similar characer to one another, specialising in lies and manipulation.
> Try to know your fluff a bit better before you make stupid assumptions. (And work on your horrible grammar as well.):nono:


Actually, it has been theorised and I believe is mentioned in some source material (i'll dig around and see what I can find) that its perfectly plausable that Cegorach and the Deciever are one and the same entity.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually, it has been theorised and I believe is mentioned in some source material (i'll dig around and see what I can find) that its perfectly plausable that Cegorach and the Deciever are one and the same entity.


That would seriously screw with the harlequins. But personally, I doubt it. The Deceiver was dormant until sometime during the 35th or 37th milennium (I think). The eldar worshipped Cegorach for thousands of years during that time, and he was one of the few named eldar gods to have survived Slaanesh`s birth. Also, he is only active in the webway (so it is claimed by the harlequins) which a c`tan could not do, as it is a part of the warp.

I cannot remember where i read about the Deceiver and when he woke up. But if you do find it, it should validate my theory. I think it may have been Deus ex Mechanicus but I`m not sure.

I won`t insult anyone`s intelligence or ability (again), but maybe you overlooked or were unaware of these tidbits of info?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

By The Fifth Horseman:



"_Firstly, there is a part of the White Dwarf fluff that tells us that Laughing God is most certainly the Deceiver. The one where it is said that it was the Laughing God who tricked Nightbringer into killing its fellow C'Tan. Now, Codex:Necrons tells us the same about Deceiver.
Obvious proof.

Second, Laughing God has survived the Fall of the Eldar unscathed. That's another strange thing, as Khaine was saved inly because Slaanesh and Khorne fought against each other and he managed to escape to the material realm and split himself into the Avatars. Now, if Laughing God was Deceiver then it would be quite simple as to why it survived - it was not a warp entity like other Eldar gods were.
Second proof, logically developing from the previous one.

Third thing is that that altough that Warp is anathema to the C'Tan, they assume foolishly that Webway counts under this as well.. that's only partially truth, as the access to the Webway can be gained through the warp gates. Now, if a C'Tan learned how to use a Warp Gate it would fairly easily gain access to the webway. And they did, as Necrons were allowed to fight in the Webway during the Eye of Terror campaign.
Therefore, Webway is not really an anathema to the C'tan and so Deceiver can in fact be Lauging God.
Third proof, maybe not SO obvious, but firm nonethless.

Click, Click, Click. Three proofs bring confirmation to the fact that Deceiver is Laughing God.

Another two are not really hard-proofed, but are pieces of this puzzle anyway.

Four - Harlequins are a mystery as much to Eldar as to Humanity. They can be followers of the Deceiver, even though they are not truly aware of this. The fact that Deceiver is not a psychic entity can bring them protection from Chaos. Also the schemes of trickery and disguise employed by Deceiver quite resemble the ways of Harlequins.

Fifth - on page 27 of Codex Necrons there is a drawing of Deceiver in a jester-like outfit. Whatever you say, it brings the term of "Great Harlequin" to mind."_

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/general-hobby-discussion/13605-vaul-3.html


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Interesting, Malus.
I thought the Deceiver convinced the Nightbringer to hunt down his fellows.
And the Laughing God tricked the outsider into doing the same.

The outsider pranked by Cegorach is covered in the DoW series, but the same book also mentions the battle between Khaine and the Nightbringer, where the Nightbringer`s armies slaughtered the Eldar warriors after a long battle, but Khaine himself was able to pierce the C`tans necrodermis.

This info coupled with your theory (though I have not seen the WD you spoke of) has succeeded in confusing the hell out of me. I1m not as sure as I used to be, but you have yet to fully convince me. I just can`t understand it. It sort of makes sense, but remember thet the Deceiver slept for millions of years. Does anyone have a time frame on when the harlequins came into being? DoW Tempest says during the war in heaven, which kind of helps it add up, I guess.

CURSE YOU MALUS! YOU`VE DESTROYED MY SANITY! 


(oh well, it`s not like I was using it...)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> That would seriously screw with the harlequins. But personally, I doubt it. The Deceiver was dormant until sometime during the 35th or 37th milennium (I think). The eldar worshipped Cegorach for thousands of years during that time, and he was one of the few named eldar gods to have survived Slaanesh`s birth. Also, he is only active in the webway (so it is claimed by the harlequins) which a c`tan could not do, as it is a part of the warp.
> 
> I cannot remember where i read about the Deceiver and when he woke up. But if you do find it, it should validate my theory. I think it may have been Deus ex Mechanicus but I`m not sure.
> 
> I won`t insult anyone`s intelligence or ability (again), but maybe you overlooked or were unaware of these tidbits of info?


Yes I was aware of that, and I personally was not postulating such a theory, but said it was plausable that they are one and the same entity.

@ _Malus_ - To be honest though, that guy's theory, although interesting is hardly watertight. Quite simply the Deciever and Cegorach may well be the same entity, or they may not be - we'll never know for sure.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Quite right. GW is simply too vague on this one. But I wonder what it would mean if they are the same entity. Nothing good, for sure.

I`m about ready to lay this one to rest. Deceiver vs Cegorach, for now, CotE is right, it is a pointless discussion.


----------



## Koraxs (Apr 9, 2010)

Hello.Tell me please:Eldar named C`tan "Yngir".
How named C`tan other races???


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yngir was the eldar name.

C`tan was the necrons name.

But in any language, it translates as "star god."


----------



## Koraxs (Apr 9, 2010)

Yes,but 1 well-known man say that "star god."have more names that only C`tan and Yngir!!!


----------



## robot-waffle (Apr 9, 2010)

They might also think that C'tan is scary and they might prefer staying away from him 
What if Necrontyr couldnt contact most of them? Everyone likes to have slaves that bring you lemonade when you want. I dont see why C'tan dosent wnt to contact em


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Deceiver is Mephet`ran, The Messenger, and about a thousand other names.

The Nightbringer is Kaelis Ra, the Reaper, Bringer of Darkness, Doom of worlds etc. etc.

Not much on the Outsider or the Void Dragon.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I wonder. Assuming there are other undiscovered C'tan in the 40kverse, would a C'tan (surviving 4) ever assist in creating another necrodermis C'tan? I realize they generally compete with each other for food/worshippers, but having an ally would have it's uses.

(On a complete side note: Necrodermis is a stupid name it should have been called metallikosdermis or metallodermis. It's a mouthful, but at least it makes sense.)


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

True, corpse skin makes little sense. 

The Deceiver might consider it. The Nightbringer probably not. I don`t know enough about the other two.


----------

