# Ultramarine Casualties at Calth



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but has the exact casualty figures been given for the Ultramarines at Calth. I ask as I was in a GW store today and the guy who worked there said they suffered 90% casualties and to be exact they suffered 270,000 casualties out of a total Legion strength of 300,000.

I didn't want to argue with the guy as I wasn't sure so I thought I'd ask here


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Whilst I don't have the figures or an approximate to hand, though I'll have a look later, I can say that it was not that high.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst I don't have the figures or an approximate to hand, though I'll have a look later, I can say that it was not that high.


I didn't think it was but as I didn't have any info to give back I politely nodded


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I didn't think it was but as I didn't have any info to give back I politely nodded


I haven't got _Know No Fear_ to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember _KNF_ stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that _KNF_ directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War. 

If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.

@zerachiel: Have you read _Know No Fear_?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I haven't got _Know No Fear_ to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember _KNF_ stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that _KNF_ directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War.
> 
> If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.
> 
> @zerachiel: Have you read _Know No Fear_?


Thanks for the info COTE and yes I read it a while back and unfortunately I now cannot find it d'oh!!! 

I agree it's incredible that they were able to recover as well as they did! It also brings into perspective the losses of the shattered Legions as going the figures you quote , the UMs lost more Marines (200,000) than the Raven Guard (77,000) and the Salamanders (80 ish thousand) put together. 

In fact it could even be argued (since I'm not sure of the exact number of losses suffered by the Iron Hands) that the UMs lost a similar number of Marines at Calth and during the Shadow Crusade than all 3 of the shattered Legions combined at Istvaan V, and yet recovered enough to lead the scouring 7 years later. To me that is staggering!!


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## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

Helps when you have a 500 world empire.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I haven't got _Know No Fear_ to hand, so I'm working off memory here: Out of a total Legion size of (roughly) 250,000, I seem to remember _KNF_ stating that 200,000 mustered at Calth whilst the remaining 50,000 were garrisoning the remaining Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. Off the top of my head I can't remember the number of casualties, but I just did a quick search and a guy over at Warseer claims that _KNF_ directly states 4/5ths of the Ultramarines Fleet was destroyed and over half of the Space Marines at Calth were confirmed to have been killed, with most of the remainder subsequently either stranded on Calth or involved in the Underworld War.
> 
> If those numbers are accurate (someone with an ebook copy may be able to confirm/deny) then the XIII Legion probably lost well over half of their overall numbers and the vast majority of their fleet as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I would go as far as to estimate perhaps as many as 75% (I admit that is not a conservative estimate!) of their overall Legion numbers were killed as a result of Calth and the Shadow Crusade - it being a testament to their organisation and the productiveness of Ultramar that they were able to recover relatively successfully.
> 
> @zerachiel: Have you read _Know No Fear_?


Would not be surprised. It sounds about right considering they were literally fighting with guns pointed at their backs. Even though they still managed to thwart off the betrayal, I would not be surprised if it was higher. I used to be really good with numbers, but I remember the Ultramarines being 300,000 before the heresy. I wouldn't be surprised if it was bigger during the battle of the Calth.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I read _KnF_ a few times...I don't believe we get a real accurate number on fleet destruction. Even a set percentage is misleading, since the Word Bearers purposely left the largest ships alone...to be boarded later to augment the Word Bearers' fleet.

As for exact losses...it's unclear. In the closing phase of the surprise attack, we have "as many" as thirty thousand *active* marines fighting on Calth. So that means 170,000 dead Ultramarines, right? QED?

Not quite. Remember, it says "as many as"...which means less, potentially.

On the other hand, this estimate is based upon the information of 1 limited data-engine. There could have been a lot more fighting on the planet, but simply not registered by the engine.

Also, this only includes active members. Many marines might have gone to ground, looking for supplies, fallen into a sus-an induced coma, or simply regrouping and getting ready to strike. Many were probably cut-off, choked by scrap code, and just holding tight until they figure out what the hell is going on.

My own opinion, with these allowances, I'm guessing the number of marines that survived the conflict...definitely 50,000+ (which means over 100,000 marines left). Maybe as much as 120,000 as an upper limit.

Calth certainly hurt the Ultramarines (80,000-150,000) losses, but I don't think it crippled them in anyway that the Raven Guard or Salamanders were.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Angel of Lies said:


> Helps when you have a 500 world empire.


Yup, although I'm unsure how many worlds were left after the Shadow Crusade.



hailene said:


> I read _KnF_ a few times...I don't believe we get a real accurate number on fleet destruction. Even a set percentage is misleading, since the Word Bearers purposely left the largest ships alone...to be boarded later to augment the Word Bearers' fleet.
> 
> As for exact losses...it's unclear. In the closing phase of the surprise attack, we have "as many" as thirty thousand *active* marines fighting on Calth. So that means 170,000 dead Ultramarines, right? QED?
> 
> ...


You raise a really good point here Hailene, "actively fighting" is such an interesting phrase. 

If they lost 150,000 that would roughly equal the losses of the Raven Guard and Salamanders put together at Istvaan V which I still find staggering.

Thanks everyone for your responses and I'll have to decide if I want to continue searching for my copy of KNF or whether to buy a new copy!


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought they got hit lightly. As the Space Marine codex mentions the 23 times deal, and Dan Abnett said 250.000 plus auxiliaries, also they formed the backbone of the new Space Marines. Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Ultramarines look to have chapters spread out throughout the 500 worlds as well, along with being scattered across numerous space stations, detachments to other Legions and stationed on special worlds like Molech. I reckon if you took all these together you would have quite a large chunk of the Legion not present at Calth.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> I thought they got hit lightly. As the Space Marine codex mentions the 23 times deal, and Dan Abnett said 250.000 plus auxiliaries, also they formed the backbone of the new Space Marines. Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.


Really? See the first strike on the Ultramarines seemed to have been a death stroke. I mean the Word Bearers literally butchered entire Ultramarines at a time. If this is so, it would make sense for just the initial assault to have equalled the amount of the perpetrators, or at least pretty close. It was really the Word Bearer's tendency to disperse and not really focus most of their force on the remnants that allowed the Ultramarines to consolidate and fight back.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Ultramarines look to have chapters spread out throughout the 500 worlds as well, along with being scattered across numerous space stations, detachments to other Legions and stationed on special worlds like Molech. I reckon if you took all these together you would have quite a large chunk of the Legion not present at Calth.


_KNF_ directly states they had around 50,000 Space Marines stationed around the Five Hundred Worlds (or otherwise not mustered at Calth). 



ckcrawford said:


> Really? See the first strike on the Ultramarines seemed to have been a death stroke. I mean the Word Bearers literally butchered entire Ultramarines at a time. If this is so, it would make sense for just the initial assault to have equalled the amount of the perpetrators, or at least pretty close. It was really the Word Bearer's tendency to disperse and not really focus most of their force on the remnants that allowed the Ultramarines to consolidate and fight back.


Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _KNF_
> Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.


I would agree with that. In fact, I would be surprised if the Ultramarines numbers weren't higher than 300,000 in total throughout the Imperium. I thought it was assumed that the legions kept growing.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> You raise a really good point here Hailene, "actively fighting" is such an interesting phrase.


Oh, I forgot to mention, this only accounts for the Ultramarines on the planet. Remember, the attack happened less than a day before the Calth muster was supposed to leave. Most of the Ultramarines were _probably_ already loaded up.

True, while the Ultramarine fleet was devastated in the attack...the largest of the ships were notably spared. God knows how many Ultramarines were safe on these ships.



Beaviz81 said:


> Also when the Grey Knights were founded there were about 400 chapters. That comes from the Grey Knight codex.


We had a discussion about 400 Second-Founding Chapters in another thread...a year or two ago? We did the math, and there couldn't really have been 400,000 Loyalist marines by the end of the Scouring. Best guess we had was that the new Chapters were probably understrength (which makes sense).



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also note that, as far as I know, the Ultramarines vastly outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.


Very likely true. We know that the Word Bearers were supposed to bring 50,000 men to Calth gathering. While it is possible the Word Bearers lied about their numbers, it seems a very unlikely lie. The extra numbers could have tipped the Word Bearers' hand before their surprise attack. Plus, if they wanted to send more, why not tell Horus to tell Guilliman 75,000 or 100,000 Word Bearers were coming instead? Remember, Horus is still a "loyal" Warmaster at this point.

This 50,000 of course is compared to the 200,000 Ultramarines we know to be mustered at Calth.



ckcrawford said:


> I would agree with that. In fact, I would be surprised if the Ultramarines numbers weren't higher than 300,000 in total throughout the Imperium.


Very unlikely. We're told specifically that the Ultramarines have 25 Chapters. And each Chapter is made up of 10,000 men. I mean, theoretically, each of these Chapters could be overstrengthed...but we're talking about the Ultramarines and bloody Guilliman at the helm. I don't think he'd allow the numbers to be fudged that long.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> We had a discussion about 400 Second-Founding Chapters in another thread...a year or two ago? We did the math, and there couldn't really have been 400,000 Loyalist marines by the end of the Scouring. Best guess we had was that the new Chapters were probably understrength (which makes sense).


I can't remember the discussion, but many people think there weren't 400k SM around. Well I have just done the math and the most causality-ridden unit ever in any warfare were the German u-boats, with 66%. So my numbers stands the test of time which I think the authors more than likely based the whole deal on. 

The IOM seems to have had around 2-3 million Space Marines when the HH erupted. Half of that being lost with some of them suffering really catastrophic losses of like 80% or more can just be described by the word calamity.

The endgame shows that the Ultramarines for better or worse escaped relatively unharmed despite the battle of Calth and their subsequent battles with the Alpha legion which is well-established in fluff.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> I can't remember the discussion, but many people think there weren't 400k SM around. Well I have just done the math and the most causality-ridden unit ever in any warfare were the German u-boats, with 66%. So my numbers stands the test of time which I think the authors more than likely based the whole deal on.


This makes almost no sense. You decide to compare casualties between the German U-boat sailors and a fictional war.

That's...wow. 

Could you come up with some numbers, post-Scouring, for the remaining 9 Loyalist Legions to end up with 400k+ marines? Just a list of Loyalist Legions with their original strength (pre-Heresy) and their strength post-Scouring.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Of course it makes sense, the Space Marines seems to have lost approximately half their number while the German u-boats lot about 66% of their number as a unit tend to be routed if it suffers more than 50% causalities in war. Doesn't sound that much but it truly is much.

As for the numbers. You have the Ultramarines being about 250.000 and such. I guess you can find the numbering here http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions if you trust the site.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Ain't the U-boats fictional? Better to compare to infantry regiment losses during the Battle of Stalingrad then.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Of course it makes sense, the Space Marines seems to have lost approximately half their number while the German u-boats lot about 66% of their number as a unit tend to be routed if it suffers more than 50% causalities in war. Doesn't sound that much but it truly is much.


Lol. These are Space Marines we are talking about. There are numerous examples of whole Chapters fighting, literally, to the last man. Space Marines know no fear and will not route unless ordered to do so.



Beaviz81 said:


> The endgame shows that the Ultramarines for better or worse escaped relatively unharmed despite the battle of Calth and their subsequent battles with the Alpha legion which is well-established in fluff.


Sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. The Battle of Calth and the Shadow Crusade would have destroyed at least 50% of the Ultramarines overall numbers (if not significantly more). It is also known that they took the brunt of the fighting during The Scouring. 

They may have recovered relatively well, but they certainly did not escape "relatively unharmed despite the Battle of Calth..."

Also, it cannot be confirmed whether or not the Battle of Eskrador (against the Alpha Legion) actually happened.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> As for the numbers.


No, I want post-Scouring numbers. I want you to list me what you think the strengths of the Loyalists Legions were after the Scouring.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, it cannot be confirmed whether or not the Battle of Eskrador (against the Alpha Legion) actually happened.


Just read the Space Marine-codex, there the Alphas out-everythinged the Ulras and were defeated by the Ultras getting mad.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. The Battle of Calth and the Shadow Crusade would have destroyed at least 50% of the Ultramarines overall numbers (if not significantly more). It is also known that they took the brunt of the fighting during The Scouring.


Maybe present at the planet, the question is how many that were as someone have earlier mentioned that 50.000 maybe more were absent ruling other planets.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Lol. These are Space Marines we are talking about. There are numerous examples of whole Chapters fighting, literally, to the last man. Space Marines know no fear and will not route unless ordered to do so.


Its about cohesion. Such losses would wreck the cohesion of any unit. And you still have to counter 400 chapters as mentioned in the Grey knight-codex. And yeah I have read about the glorious last stand-stories but I'm as usual not sure what you are rambling on about.



Moriouce said:


> Ain't the U-boats fictional? Better to compare to infantry regiment losses during the Battle of Stalingrad then.


You didn't just tell me that WWII is fictional? I suppose I have to link for this one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat

I considered naming Confederate regiments and brigades as well as 100.000 plus Germans entered Stalingrad with only 6.000 returning a few years after WWII and the POW-camps, so that army was totally annihilated while the u-boats still were an effective fighting-force. Sort of surprised that you didn't know about the wolf-packs and such during WWII.

The reason I didn't go for the Confederate units were that they were wrecked by desertion and disease.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> You didn't just tell me that WWII is fictional? I suppose I have to link for this one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat
> 
> 
> 
> I considered naming Confederate regiments and brigades as well as 100.000 plus Germans entered Stalingrad with only 6.000 returning a few years after WWII and the POW-camps, so that army was totally annihilated while the u-boats still were an effective fighting-force. Sort of surprised that you didn't know about the wolf-packs and such.



Haha! I am very well aware of the wolves actions during WWII. It was more intended as a small pun of compare fictional losses to non-fictional losses. It simply doesn't prove anything. And you made that clear yourself with stating Numbers from stalingrad. In reality, 96% losses are as likely as 66%. What I try o say is I second hailene on that one.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Just read the Space Marine-codex, there the Alphas out-everythinged the Ulras and were defeated by the Ultras getting mad.


The account of the Battle of Eskrador comes solely from Inquisitor Kravin (the Ultramarines themselves don't have an account of the battle) who was later suspected of being an Alpha Legion infiltrator and subsequently disappeared. Thus is whole account of the Battle has to be called into account. As far as 40k lore is concerned, the Battle of Eskrador may well just be a fabrication. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Maybe present at the planet, the question is how many that were as someone have earlier mentioned that 50.000 maybe more were absent ruling other planets.


No, no. I've already said twice in this thread but I'll repeat myself again: _Know No Fear_ directly states that the only Ultramarines not mustered at Calth were the 50,000 that were stationed around the Five Hundred Worlds or otherwise engaged. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Its about cohesion. Such losses would wreck the cohesion of any unit. And you still have to counter 400 chapters as mentioned in the Grey knight-codex. And yeah I have read about the glorious last stand-stories but I'm as usual not sure what you are rambling on about.


That says a lot about either about you, or your command of the English language. You used an analogy from the Second World War to justify your conclusion that the Ultramarines simply couldn't have suffered a lot during the Heresy because of their post-Heresy/post-Scouring position. :wacko: Several of us have pointed out this is a load of bollocks - read _Know No Fear_ and _Betrayer_, the former even gives us explicit numbers. The Ultramarines suffered catastrophic casualties at Calth and during the Shadow Crusade, it is testament both to their decision to remain in Ultramar and recover (during the Heresy) and the mauling every other Legion received that they emerged from the Heresy/Scouring as the dominant Imperial Legion. 



Beaviz81 said:


> You didn't just tell me that WWII is fictional?


Guess you missed the humour on that one. :laugh:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm still desperately trying to figure out how you're trying to use statistics from WWII to justify your own figures from a fictional universe, in a fictional war that makes WWII look like a two man firefight.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I think he tries to say that you don't need to kill 100% of the enemy before he is defeated. At 50% the commandstructure has taken so much damage that an army stops functioning as a whole and the remaining parts fights on individual and ineffective. Then space marines ain't human in that way. I guess everyone is quite capable of taking on the bruden of command. Then I don't know how space marines take care of their fallen during battle, if they let them be or if they carry them back field to be taken care off. "One dead enemy is one enemy less, one wonded enemy is three enemies less since two must carry him" from the education I received during my time in the Swedish Army. And casualties are not only the dead, it is all who has been rendered incapable of battle, wounded, missing, broken. 

So if the UM took, say 80% casualties during Calth, then only half of them might have died, the rest may have been wounded, extracted and recovered to fight another day. That is how I read what Beviz write, if I try hard. Then again I don't know if this is what he ment.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Moriouce said:


> I think he tries to say that you don't need to kill 100% of the enemy before he is defeated. At 50% the commandstructure has taken so much damage that an army stops functioning as a whole and the remaining parts fights on individual and ineffective. Then space marines ain't human in that way. I guess everyone is quite capable of taking on the bruden of command. Then I don't know how space marines take care of their fallen during battle, if they let them be or if they carry them back field to be taken care off. "One dead enemy is one enemy less, one wonded enemy is three enemies less since two must carry him" from the education I received during my time in the Swedish Army. And casualties are not only the dead, it is all who has been rendered incapable of battle, wounded, missing, broken.
> 
> So if the UM took, say 80% casualties during Calth, then only half of them might have died, the rest may have been wounded, extracted and recovered to fight another day. That is how I read what Beviz write, if I try hard. Then again I don't know if this is what he ment.


Spot on. An army with 50% causalities looses everything about cohesion just like the Raven Guard, Salamanders and the Iron Hands that were absolutely annihilated at Istvaan. The Ultramarines merely lost about 10-20% so they could still work. 

Anyway the Ultras remained enough of a force to be reconned with to threaten Horus during the latter part of he Heresy and they shouldered the burden of carrying the whole IOM on it back for years after the Heresy as Guilliman got to be a High Lord of Terra. 

And they were the fighting-force to be reconned with as everything else were exhausted and they ended up consisting of over half of the Space Marines in the new IOM. And somehow people finds this conservative view of fluff offensive? I can't and won't compute.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Maybe I'm just not reading it right, but how does the casualties the U-boats took, prove that the Ultramarines didn't suffer as many casualties as others have said in this thread.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> An army with 50% causalities looses everything about cohesion just like the Raven Guard, Salamanders and the Iron Hands that were absolutely annihilated at Istvaan.


The Raven Guard were able to continue to fight as a cohesive force despite taking ~95% casualties. Look at the FW book _Massacre_ for further details.



Beaviz81 said:


> he Ultramarines merely lost about 10-20% so they could still work.


Holy crap. Where on Earth did you get the Ultramarines lost only 10-20% of their forces?



Angel of Blood said:


> Maybe I'm just not reading it right, but how does the casualties the U-boats took, prove that the Ultramarines didn't suffer as many casualties as others have said in this thread.


I think we're all scratching our heads here, too, Angel of Blood.

It doesn't even make sense on a basic level, since we have seen last stands of _human_ armies where they fight essentially to the last man. Just drawing on World War 2 examples, look at the Japanese. They had small groups, sometimes just single men, continuing to fight almost 30 years _after_ the war had ended! Onoda Hiroo fought until 1974! Japanese casualties in battle in the latter portion of the war approached 90% while they continued to resist as an army.

And the other point is that he's trying to compare human armies (who were largely, to my knowledge, conscripted) to post-human super soldiers that have undergone physical, chemical, and psychic conditioning to be relentless killing machines. 

I think he's just being a better troll than Lux, honestly. Only real explanation.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Maybe I'm just not reading it right, but how does the casualties the U-boats took, prove that the Ultramarines didn't suffer as many casualties as others have said in this thread.


Ehm from this I think you need to do some major research about fluff or stop confusing your own opinions for fluff. Please don't be so arrogant.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That says a lot about either about you, or your command of the English language. You used an analogy from the Second World War to justify your conclusion that the Ultramarines simply couldn't have suffered a lot during the Heresy because of their post-Heresy/post-Scouring position. :wacko:


Says who? You? And you seem to not have a proper command about the word analogy even.


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Says who? You? And you seem to not have a proper command about the word analogy even.


a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/Submit
noun
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
"an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

By the very definition of the word, CotE has used it correctly.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Did people really just start a flame war over grammar?. For fucks sake, grow up!.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ehm from this I think you need to do some major research about fluff or stop confusing your own opinions for fluff. Please don't be so arrogant.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who? You? And you seem to not have a proper command about the word analogy even.


Sorry, but neither point you raise here makes any sense in the context of this thread. 

I don't know how people can argue with the figures actually stated in the novels. It's one of the few times we've been given anything close to exact numbers concerning the largest of the Legions.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Nacho libre said:


> Did people really just start a flame war over grammar?. For fucks sake, grow up!.



Seconded! Beviz has explained what he ment so stop argue about how he said it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He has? Cause personally I still need more clarification.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

hailene said:


> The Raven Guard were able to continue to fight as a cohesive force despite taking ~95% casualties. Look at the FW book Massacre for further details.


They had to regroup and Corax basically sold the future of the chapter with what he did (creating slobbering monsters through the rushed Astartes-creation). Plus they now have so corrupted geneseed that they can't even use post-heresy geneseed so I'm unsure how that can count as a victory. Though I would compare them to the Germans walking out of Russia after Stalingrad.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Anyway the Ultras remained enough of a force to be reconned with to threaten Horus during the latter part of he Heresy and they shouldered the burden of carrying the whole IOM on it back for years after the Heresy as Guilliman got to be a High Lord of Terra.
> 
> And they were the fighting-force to be reconned with as everything else were exhausted and they ended up consisting of over half of the Space Marines in the new IOM. And somehow people finds this conservative view of fluff offensive? I can't and won't compute.


No one finds it offensive. What I find odd is that you are ignoring *explicit* numbers from _Know No Fear_, the novel about the Battle of Calth. 

The Ultramarines remained a powerful enough force to, alongside the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, threaten Horus at the Siege of Terra (assuming the HH novels continue this lore in the series). But that doesn't automatically mean, as you are suggesting, that the Ultramarines took very few casualties during the Calth War and Shadow Crusade. That is where we are all disagreeing with you.

I'll run through the numbers again: Out of the Legion total of 250,000 Space Marines, 200,000 Ultramarines were mustered at Calth and were ambushed by the Word Bearers. The remaining 50,000 Ultramarines were not involved in the Calth War. At the end of _Know No Fear_ it is clearly stated that out of those 200,000 involved in the Calth War, "as many" as 30,000 remained "active". As _hailene_ said earlier, that doesn't automatically mean 170,000 were killed, but I think it's safe to say somewhere near that number could be classed as casualties (killed, injured or incapacitated). In my opinion, and some may disagree, but I would say an estimate of 100,000-150,000 is a sensible conclusion for Ultramarine deaths at Calth - especially if you read _Know No Fear_ which portrays the sheer carnage that the Word Bearers unleash on the Ultramarines. 

Aside from Calth, yes the Ultramarines maintained a powerful enough force to threaten Horus and his forces (alongside the Space Wolves and Dark Angels), yes they bore the brunt of the fighting during the Scouring, and yes they contributed by far the most to the Second Founding. However, that doesn't mean they were left unharmed or only minimally damaged by Calth and the Shadow Crusade, it is a testament to their decision to remain in Ultramar for most of the Heresy and their ability to rebuild (using their famous organisational prowess and the resources that their own empire yielded). 

Can I ask _Beaviz_, have you read _Know No Fear_?



Malus Darkblade said:


> Says who? You?


Yes, what is your point here Malus?



Tugger said:


> By the very definition of the word, CotE has used it correctly.


Thanks mate. :laugh:



Khorne's Fist said:


> I don't know how people can argue with the figures actually stated in the novels. It's one of the few times we've been given anything close to exact numbers concerning the largest of the Legions.


This is what all of this boils down to, I think.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No one finds it offensive. What I find odd is that you are ignoring explicit numbers from Know No Fear, the novel about the Battle of Calth.


State were you found the number then. Page and quote. Thats all as I trust you no more than I could throw the Big Ben.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> State were you found the number then. Page and quote. Thats all as I trust you no more than I could throw the Big Ben.


God you sound like fun at parties.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> God you sound like fun at parties.


Heyh I'm told I'm a joy to be around at parties. I would know more in about a week. Can we speak then?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> State were you found the number then. Page and quote.


Seeing as you can't be bothered to read the novel yourself, here are the references:

_Know No Fear_, ebook page 51/689: "The XIII Legion, largest of all Legiones Astartes, is divided into Chapters... Each Chapter is formed of ten companies. The basic unit currency is the company, a thousand legionaries...". To translate, a Chapter = 10,000 Space Marines. 

_Know No Fear_, ebook page 52/689: "*Today, at Calth, twenty of the XIII's twenty-five Chapters will conjunct for deployment. Two hundred companies. Two hundred thousand legionaries.* The remainder will maintain garrison positions throughout the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar." To translate, as I said earlier, 200,000 Ultramarines mustered at Calth, with the remaining 50,000 elsewhere. 

_Know No Fear_, ebook page 587/689: "[following the Battle and following the Ultramarines reactivating their data-engine] 'We have built a picture of resistance across the planet. It is broken and scattered, but it is fierce. Spread across hundreds of locations. *As many as thirty thousand of your battle-brothers and two hundred thousand Army and Mechanicum warriors are still active.*" To translate, the Ultramarines got bloody mauled. 

However, I suggest you read the novel yourself to get a more comprehensive view of the sheer amount of damage the Ultramarines suffered. It's probably not wise to continue to argue a point in a thread about the casualties the Ultramarines suffered at Calth if you haven't read the one and only novel which focuses on the Battle of Calth. :wacko:



Beaviz81 said:


> Thats all as I trust you no more than I could throw the Big Ben.


I was going to ask why you didn't trust me, but then I realised I didn't care. If you don't trust my posts, that's your problem. But I have probably contributed more than anyone to these fluff forums over the years (including the fluff FAQ) and no one can ever accuse me of not providing citations, quotations or references for my posts.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

@Beaviz81 mate, can you stop causing an argument over every little thing?.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Seeing as you can't be bothered to read the novel yourself, here are the references:
> 
> _Know No Fear_, ebook page 51/689: "The XIII Legion, largest of all Legiones Astartes, is divided into Chapters... Each Chapter is formed of ten companies. The basic unit currency is the company, a thousand legionaries...". To translate, a Chapter = 10,000 Space Marines.
> 
> ...


For my own benefit thanks for the info. 

I never expected this thread to cause such arguments. :shok: After all it was just a question of numbers which you and others have provided. Thanks again


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> They had to regroup and Corax basically sold the future of the chapter with what he did


No, I'm talking about on the sands of Istvaan V. Before the geneseed mishap.

And he hardly sold the future of his LEGION. He was very successful in creating new, better astartes. Only deliberate sabotage by the Alpha Legion caused the mishap.

And where on Earth did you get the idea that the Raven Guard have no successors? They had at least 3 Chapters in the Second Founding. Plus many more Chapters from them or their own successors down the road.




zerachiel76 said:


> I never expected this thread to cause such arguments.


Mostly because Beaviz is arguing from his butt with no sources against hard numbers given in one of the HH novels. It's frustrating in the extreme.

As CotE said, I have this horrible suspicion that Beaviz hasn't read KnF...or much source material period, really.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> For my own benefit thanks for the info.


You're welcome pal.


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