# Technological Progress in The 40k Universe?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I just have a few questions about technology in the 40k universe.

1. Was the Age of Technology the highpoint of human civilization technologically? What I mean is, was it even more advanced than the age of the Imperium around 29-30k onwards? Had the Emperor's Imperium already 'lost' technology that it could never recover, or could only find fragments of? Are there any examples?

2. Are things like Terminator Armour, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Titans etc still capable of being produced, albiet at a slower rate, or can they literally not be made anymore? Are there any known examples of what exactly cannot be built in 40k which could be built prior to the Horus Heresy?

3. Is there any technological advancement in 40k? I know innovation is stifled because of mountains of bureaucracy and religious persecution, but is there any known examples of new technology? I know a few things were merely prototypes during the Heresy, such as Jump Packs, but is there any definatively new weapons, machines etc?

4. Finally, after giving it some thought, do you think is the Dark Mechanicum more innovative than the the current Imperial Mechanicum in 40? What I mean is, are THEY still interested in creating new technology (propably aided with the infusion of daemonic entities) whereas the current Imperial mechanicum considers changing or even improving equipment sac-religious? What do you think the Dark Mechanicum are up to, despite merely keeping the Legions supplied in the Eye of Terror?


Any info and/or opinions would be welcome about the topic. Thanks.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

As you said, religious persecution & dedicTed to the Omnissiah mean they are outgunned by Tau. To my knowledge the stuff you mentioned are being produced at a slower rate, apart from conversion beamers, which is a 'lost art'.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Interesting questions, although a few of them have been debated before.
Regarding what still can be made, 
- First of all the mechanicum is still capable of tantalizing technical achievements compared to a current (2012) status, especially bio-engineering seems to be really advanced.
I have never read a clear reference stating that dreadnoughts and terminator armor can still be made, I have read somewhere that they termi armour is often a patchwork. However it is clear that they can still be repaired up to a high degree, furthermore if one where no longer capable of creating new termi armor and dreadnought armor for the last 10 K years, I doubt there would still be any around. So my interpretation of the fluff is that they can still be made, be it at a very slow rate and in specialized locations, probably one of the main challenges is gathering the resources required caused by the major logistic issues in the empirium. Furthermore dreadnought armor (and dreadnought technology) is of great strategic value, for example in fall of damnos it proved to be (besides psychic powers) one of the only effective weapons against necrons, also the space wolves need not to be remembered regarding the effectiveness of dreadnoughts. As such the incentive to salvage the technology is enormous, it is my personal opinion that mass production of termi and dreadnought armor would greatly improve the fighting chances of the empirium. (I find it interesting to know if the BA librarian dreadnoughts have been created before or after Nikea).
Regarding land raiders, they can still be made, baneblades is another issue, also here the output rate is very low also I feel mainly caused by logistics of resources.
Titans can still be made up to imperator class I understood that this knowledge is lost, although I have no reference, only vague remembrances of discussions on several forums.
Regarding cruisers and battle barges I have no real reference of what can be made
During the heresy a lot of knowledge got lost, for me a striking example is given in (I think) battle of the abyss where it was stated that very specific knowledge regarding ship creation has been destroyed. In mechanicum this issue is addressed in more detail.

if there is still tech development in the 40 K universe? for sure,
although it depends on which author you read,
as far as I understand the mechanicum does no longer allow AI due to the mishaps from the past, furthermore it undermines the human superiority (a nice reference is given in know no fear). As such they use vat grown brains and other organic-based decision support. One does not need to be an engineer to understand that not using AI limits the technical manufacturing capacity (a lot of mechanicum tech creation is ritual based), this might be an explenation why the plasma weapons are so unstable, the precise magnetic field is here of extreme importance. On the other hand the more organic orientation makes me believe that the bio-engineering capacity is still greatly advanced and creative, e.g. the magos biologis in warriors of ultramar was very creative designing the tyranid weapon, and in the chapters's due it has been stated that research was performed on crop growth enhancement (this tech was abused by the IW). The IG does not get bolters in stead of lasguns but are bio-engineered (a nice disription is given in Legion)
But here we come to the author discussion. Graham actually portraits very interesting magos persons who often tend to be rather liberal, e.g. in warriors of ultramar and the chapter's due where a magos (don't know his name) pulled some nasty algo's agains scrap code which seemed very advanced, also in his mechanicum book I got the impression of a rather liberal and open minded mechanicum. Another striking example of technical cunning is for example the noosphere (used by Graham and Dan) which I find really really advanced. The adaptabiliy of the mechanicum displayed in titanicus also indicates that certainly not all fractions are rusty and against development and certainly not against creativity. Creativity being the starting point for development and advancement (besides luck and a lot of mental sweat). The image we get from several codex books is often more grim. Another example is a recent silver skull short story where it has been mentioned they no longer have decent jump suits.
Generally speaking I think the mechanicum is capable of tremendous technical achievements, however the secrecy and paranoia is limiting its effectiveness, the more organic inspired approach is limiting in the sense of manufacturing but results in a strong gene-tech. And although the credo is that all tech has been developed and has to be rediscovered I get the impression that there is still creativity and actual technical cunning, the main ingredients for development and advancement. The main 'perceived' flaw is the lack of high tech output, termi armour, titans, teleporters. And the often strange decisions e.g. lasguns in stead of bolters for IG. Often this is based upon power and control but also, I think, this is based upon pure mathematical optimization related to logistics of resources.
As such I personally feel the mechancum could do a lot better but they are far more than dogmatic degrading c3p0's


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> I just have a few questions about technology in the 40k universe.
> 
> ...


Those are my thoughts on the matter. Hope they help, and I hope people correct me where I'm wrong.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

1. The Golden and Dark Ages of Technology were the periods of the highest technological achievements. This is when navigators were created, warp travel discovered, The Iron Men were slaved to humanity and there were fully functioning STC systems. Yes they were far more advanced than even during 30k. 

2. All those are still being produced, albeit slowly and in limited numbers (as compared to the needs of a galaxy spanning empire). The Mechanicus may not know exactly how the things they are building work but then can replicate and produce them. Jetbikes, conversion beamers and contemptor pattern dreadnoughts are three things i can think of off the top of my head that 30k could produce that 40k can't. Though in the case of jetbikes the anti grav technology is still available (see land speeders etc) but jet bikes were likely deemed too much hassle to maintain and produce for their benefits. Miniaturised plasma weaponry also seems something of a lost art. Plasma generators and ship and titan scale designs seem to be no great problem but man portable versions are rare and temperamental. 

3. There does indeed seem to be some advancement and refining (or at least adaptation) of the Imperium's technologies. The rhino for example. In 30k the mark1 was the pattern most widely used but now it's the mark2 which is actually superior, being more rugged and dependable. Ship designs too have changed since 30k with the current Imperial navy being very different (and arguable superior) than the 30k version. The Soul Drinkers novels would suggest some forms of reverse engineering are taking place as the Mechanicus sought to steal the Soul Spear and learn more about vortex weapons. 

The main problem with the Imperium and technology is logistics. The Imperium spans the galaxy and is comprised of a million worlds and uncounted people. It's damned hard to keep all those armies supplied so you have to make concessions. Use lasguns as they're rechargeable and sturdy, easy to maintain, flak armour is easy to produce and Leman Russes are reliable and can run off any fuel source. I have no doubt if the Imperium solely comprised the Segmentum Solar then every guardsman would have carapace armour and hellguns and power armour would be common.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Progress? 
Heretic!

I have read that innovation, initiative and open-mindedness are regarded as sins in the Mechanicum. Aside from re-discovering STCs and adapting or upgrading existing STCs, there would be little growth. In fact, newly discovered STCs must face thorough investigation to prove they are pure and untainted. And the Mechanicum's bureaucratic procedures are even worse than the rest of the Imperium.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The only races that can actually be considered to be advancing are the tau, tyanids and to an extent the orks. 

Every other faction is either stagnant or declining. 

Mankind reached their peak during the Golden Age of Technology. Nothing they've done before or since has surpassed what they accomplished back then.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

There is certainly a vast number of splinter fraction from the imperium that are developing new tech all the time. Maybe not at the speed or high-tech-level of the age of technology but still progress. 

Outside the imperium there should be a great number of races spread across the galaxy, with a rapid technological advancement but still planet bound or just not caught by the imperiums sentinels, much like the Tau 1k years ago. There is simply no telling what, and by whom, something is invented, anywhere, all the time.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

If I remember right, Terminator armor is still being produced veerrrrryyy slowly. Some of the more complex parts' makings have been lost to the Adeptus Mechanicus, so they will usually use pieces from pre-existing armor.

That's all I know about the questions. Hope it helped


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Great responses guys, thanks. So it seems the Imperium still can produce things like Terminator Armour and Dreadnoughts, but because its so slow, and there are so many chapters, its a case of 'here are 10 suits of Termie armour and a Dreadnought shell, don't break them because it will be 1000 years before your Chapter gets any more .... oh and sign here please  '.

But that begs the question, do you think the Dark Mechanicum has been able to set up production facilities for those things, or do they need to be stolen?

We know the Black Legion is pretty well stocked for ships, Termie armour, weapons, tanks, and even titans, so I doubt they could steal everything?

Plus if they can make defilers, surely they can build other impressive war machines.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Rems is correct in that logistics is an issue, but I think the main issue facing the Imperium is the marriage of technology to religion, superstition, and dogma. Innovation is literally a sin. New designs go through a process of vetting not unlike that of the Catholic Church canonizing a Saint.

It's that fundamental limitation that keeps further human advancement in check. Without it, humans have already proven they can improve on existing STC technology (as Rems pointed out).

As far as other factions go, I think the Tau definitely count (as Serpion5 pointed out), but I would also argue that, following a steep drop, the Craftworld Eldar are also showing signs of advancement in _some_ sectors. That is, assuming that the psychic, spiritual, technological, and sociological innovations associated with Phoenix Lords, Aspect Warriors, Wraithguard, the Path in general, Bonesingers and wraithbone technology, etc., didn't precede their Fall.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The eldar won't survive until past 50k. Mathmatically it's impossible. Your seeing farseers getting waxed like Eldrad and Chaos is only getting stronger. That Ygnir prophecy is their only way to fix what they screwed up,and that assuming he can actual take Slaanesh which IMHO is a long shot (see other attempts by eldar gods). The Tau have become by geographic circumstance a bulwark against the Tyranids along with the Orks. Both species have maybe another 10k before being assimilated into the tyranid species. The orks will last longer. This is if no one finds a way before then the defeat the Hive Mind which is IMHO the only way to take this race on.

The tau don't have the warp affinity to get it done and the Orks are for lack of a better term to stupid to see this as a viable option over open war. It's funny that the one thing the Emperor was prepared to openly reprimand his son over has become the bane of the imperiums new existance. As an atheist I'll leave my religious commentary for somewhere else but your completely right. Dogma has made innovation a worthless pursuit and it's been stated they've even forgotten vast amounts never to be relearned. I know that the Imperiums is supposed to be the main protagonist of this but if you looked at this from a pure objective stand point there should only by 60k be 3 races still in the game as empires. 

Based on weapons,industrialization,warp power,adaptability,military abilit,logisitcs,and overall power: Necrons,Tyranids,and Chaos.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You know, the Eldar typically come hand-in-hand with the "Dying Race" label, but I wonder how much of that is really valid.

I mean, are they endangered? *Absolutely!* They have to make sure that every little move they make is carefully calculated to ensure survival/avoid any number of dangers and pitfalls. And they don't just do so in the sense of _"Maybe going here is a bad idea. It could be dangerous."_ They have to operate with a _"Going here might bite us in the ass in the next millennium, assuming these other three potential future threads intersect with that our action."_

Having said that... The Craftworlds _have only gotten bigger._ That's a core staple of Eldar fluff, and it stands in stark contrast to the idea that they are irrevocably dying (IMHO). Unless they're just making their mobile homes roomier and fancier, that implies that there _is_ growth. It just isn't dynamic enough to secure them their own corner of the galaxy (like the Tau) or for them to operate less cautiously than they do (see above).

Let's remember also that Eldrad did not die in vain. He sacrificed himself to ensure that Chaos did not manage to win the greatest battle its minions have fought since the Horus Heresy.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> You know, the Eldar typically come hand-in-hand with the "Dying Race" label, but I wonder how much of that is really valid.
> 
> I mean, are they endangered? *Absolutely!* They have to make sure that every little move they make is carefully calculated to ensure survival/avoid any number of dangers and pitfalls. And they don't just do so in the sense of _"Maybe going here is a bad idea. It could be dangerous."_ They have to operate with a _"Going here might bite us in the ass in the next millennium, assuming these other three potential future threads intersect with that our action."_
> 
> ...


The Eldar are a "dying race" like the Imperium is in the "Time of Ending." They make it sound like it'll happen tomorrow, when it will actually happen at some point in the future (maybe near, maybe distant).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Let's remember also that Eldrad did not die in vain. He sacrificed himself to ensure that Chaos did not manage to win the greatest battle its minions have fought since the Horus Heresy.


Although they still won... as total war will soon embrace Segmentum Obscurus. :spiteful:

Beyond that IIRC his sacrifice in attempting to retake the Talisman of Vaul did not have a wider or significant effect on the outcome of the Black Crusade, unless you were referring to him splitting his consciousness into waystones to guide the Ulthwé forces thereby crediting him with the aid the Imperium recieved from the Eldar?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

There's losing, and then there's *losing*.

Had Quarren not worked his magic, Abaddon wouldn't just be revelling about the fact that the Cadian Gate was finally open to him - he wouldn't have stopped. He would have been burning his way across the galaxy. The theme of the game would be "The Imperium lost; here are the tales immediately preceding Abaddon's destruction of it" as opposed to "The Ends Times are nigh!" Hence why the Inquisition can afford to waste time and resources suppressing Ciaphas Cain's memoirs a full five years after the Thirteenth Black Crusade... :wink:

Where Eldrad is concerned, I was mostly pointing out that his death wasn't a "Another Farseer bites the dust..." sort of thing. The leaders of the Eldar do not risk their lives needlessly, and they sacrifice them only for the most critical causes. So, while I'm not familiar with Eldrad's ultimate contribution vs. Abaddon, I don't think his destruction was part of a recurring theme of Eldar Farseers dropping like flies. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

@COTE

I disagree that Segmentum Obscuras is facing a total war. While the Cadian Gate has been broken and the forces of chaos are more free to come and go without detection and opposition than ever before the Imperium has i feel, still contained the threat. 

In the last stages of the war the Imperial Navy had regained orbital superiority throughout the theatre of war. Abaddon's fleets are done, defeated, the Blackstones neutralised. The Imperium can now slowly take back those worlds fallen and win where conflicts are ongoing. They now again have the advantage for logistics and manoeuvring. The Chaos ground forces will no doubt inflict a lot of damage but ultimately they will lose and have to retreat if able or be stranded and destroyed. Abaddon's exhausted his forces once again and unlike the Imperium does not posses unlimited man power.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

GW won't let anything major happen....ever. So despite it making sense the following will probably never happen in 40k. 

1) Any single race being completely killed of (at least not anymore)
2) Any race, but the tau really designing any new powerful tech that shifts the balance.
3) ext ext blah blah blah.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> 1) Any single race being completely killed of (at least not anymore)


I was going to mention Squats, but then I saw the 'any more' part.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The theme of the game would be "The Imperium lost; here are the tales immediately preceding Abaddon's destruction of it" as opposed to "The Ends Times are nigh!" :wink:


I was under the impression that the 13th Black Crusade is still technically _"ongoing"_ and not over. Thus technically if the theme is looking back from the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Cadian Gate, _"The End Times [are still] nigh!"_ - Abaddon just hasn't pursued his advance as of yet, especially considering resistance is still present on Cadia. But the final and conclusive newsletter of the Eye of Terror campaign is not shy in stating that the 13th Black Crusade was a Chaos victory.



Rems said:


> @COTE
> 
> I disagree that Segmentum Obscuras is facing a total war. While the Cadian Gate has been broken and the forces of chaos are more free to come and go without detection and opposition than ever before the Imperium has i feel, still contained the threat.
> 
> In the last stages of the war the Imperial Navy had regained orbital superiority throughout the theatre of war. Abaddon's fleets are done, defeated, the Blackstones neutralised. The Imperium can now slowly take back those worlds fallen and win where conflicts are ongoing. They now again have the advantage for logistics and manoeuvring. The Chaos ground forces will no doubt inflict a lot of damage but ultimately they will lose and have to retreat if able or be stranded and destroyed. Abaddon's exhausted his forces once again and unlike the Imperium does not posses unlimited man power.


The Eye of Terror campaign final newsletter reads:

_"...Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate - perhaps forever. *The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos.* The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. *Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed.* The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years - he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man."_

The Eye of Terror itself is surging forward, the Necron pylons have buckled and failed to hold the warp at bay (I will find the source for that if needed). Cadia stands alone - the newsletter certainly portrays the remaining Imperial forces on Cadia as isolated, being supplied by Imperial vessels that only have a small channel by which they can reach the planet. The newsletter goes on to say:

_"The order is given - ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’."_

Yet considering Cadia is alone and isolated, with the warp surging forward around it - it certainly doesn't seem like Abaddon's forces are contained. The entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic as well as a _"substantial proportion"_ of Battle Fleet Solar is being _"rapidly redeployed"_ in an attempt to prevent Abaddon's forces swamping Segmentum Obscurus, whether they can do so is another matter - especially if it leaves the Imperial Navy stretched too thin in other areas that still need defending. If the Imperium can prevent Abaddon's forces enroaching fully into Segmentum Obscurus whilst also holding Cadia, they may have reason to hope - but being able to achieve that seems unlikely.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The beginning of _Prospero Burns_ suggests that the Imerium is in the process of regathering much of the knowledge lost after the DAoT, with Kaspar becoming concerned that the sheer floof of knowledge is fast overwhelming Humanity's ability to actually _know_ what it knows. With the events of the HH, I can't see this situation improving at all.
The Mechanicus, probably in an extreme reaction to the forbidden advances of the DarkMech, might have clamped down on new research and leading to the long and drawn-out process of the 40k era, where advances take centuries to be approved.
My own personal opinion, however, is that there are places across the fragmented and heterogenous Imperium, where there are advances taking place as a matter of course. Sectors may not be aware of what neighbours are doing, AdMech Magi may be so engrossed at what they are doing that they don't build anything, but keep it all in the realms od dataslates- slates which may have them burned by the Fabricator General should they ever be found. Hells, what might be considered heretekcal in one place may be, for whatever reason, accepted somehwere else, maybe an eccentric Arch Magos being interested, or offended, by a particular area of research.

GFP


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