# GW Australia Responds to Customers Concerns



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

You can read the original letter here.



> Dear Anthony,
> 
> Thanks for contacting Games Workshop about the change in our trading terms for European accounts. I know this has frustrated you and for that I am truly sorry. As a long standing customer, you deserve to know why we made this decision.
> 
> ...


Seems pretty reasonable to me.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

TL;DR:

"We aren't going to do the right thing and shut our Australian shops down even if they're nothing but a crutch, but here is a fantasy tale of feigned investment in the hobby aspect of the game and how important it seemingly is to have a GW store to play in"

Although they could just as easily play their games at home, using models they bought overseas. What a giant piece of trash.


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## ServiceStud (Mar 1, 2008)

Good reasons notwithstanding: Black market ahoy!


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

It is reasonable, and i can fully understand why they are doing it.

Australia has high living costs, high rent, high wages, and as a result they need to charge extra for their models.

But honestly, i don't think it will stop people from buying overseas.

I have zero respect for GW-AU (not because of prices or stopping European trade, but for other reasons), and i will still refuse to buy anything from them.

Personally i think they would save more money if they just closed down all of the GW-AU stores, dropped their prices to relate to the current exchange rates, and used independent retailers to sell the products.

As i have said in other threads, there are more than enough wargaming clubs all over Australia to give more than enough support for the hobby. We don't even use GW stores anyway.


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## ServiceStud (Mar 1, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> TL;DR:
> 
> "We aren't going to do the right thing and shut our Australian shops down even if they're nothing but a crutch, but here is a fantasy tale of feigned investment in the hobby aspect of the game and how important it seemingly is to have a GW store to play in"
> 
> Although they could just as easily play their games at home, using models they bought overseas. What a giant piece of trash.


The hobby centres and stores are not ONLY ther to sell stuff, they are also there to grow the market hobby.

Point taken, tho.

EDIT:: That was ment to be a strikethrough tag.

EDIT 2:: Seems KoC has a better grab of the market, I defer. I still think it is less for nefarious reasons, more for practical (read: business) reasons. Remember, people work at those stores you are so eager to close. People who eat. And sleep under roofs...


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Seems pretty reasonable to me.


I'm with Katie on this one.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I live over 2,000 kilometres from the nearest GW Shop. That does not stop me or any of my dozen playfellows from playing the game. Nor did it handicap us or turn us away from the hobby when we were new to it. We buy from overseas, always have, always will. Although now, eBay is our only option - not out of necessity, but out of spite and solidarity to our fellows in stricken territories. We're all determined to make GW hurt for this, and will not be buying from any store that is a registered company of any state. We buy strictly second hand. If we have to strip paint, no problem. It's the least we can do to wax the oppressors and contribute in a symbolic way.

That is at least 12,000£ per year in lost sales for GW, from us. We won't stand by and watch and shrug when Aussies take the bomb sandwich, because frankly, _those who think they are not next in line are retarded._


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Not really telling me and many others anything we don't know already...standard Business Practice wording for the most part.
Aus customers will vote with their money in the end, so some will continue as usual while some will stop or cut back. What the overall impact this has on GW Aus - time will tell.

I and the other 50 odd guys I know who play regularly don't game at a GW, and get all our Paints etc from local FLGS's, so it purely comes down to price...and GW retail prices are too high period, irregardless of the spin they put on it.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

While I am not particularly happy with the rises. I can see the viewpoint in this response. In truth while internet trade has given consumers what they want for less. It has also killed a lot of shops (not just games shops). In some ways by us buying over the internet we drive the retail outlet prices up. Now I am no GW apologist but I can see what they are moving against and that they are trying to protect their business, something a lot of shops were unable to do & if I think back 10yr's to how many games shops there were to what there is now, it's quite sad to see so manys demise. Ultimately their price rises won't turn me off while I still like their product. I think this will be the same for many no matter how bitter the taste may be at the moment. At the end of the day they produce a great product and if we want to see that continue we have to respect the business decisions they make to allow this to continue. Ultimately everyone has the choice to walk away if they want to and I am sure some will. I am sure GW realised the gravity of this announcement and wouldn't have done it unless absolutely necessary. I am also sure others will have another take on things and this is just my personal viewpoint and not an attack on anyone elses. We all have a right to are own opinion I guess?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The thing is, I wonder if their customers want this business model. I try never to go in what I call "the informercial center" (the GW store). First, it's downtown, so it's a nightmare going there. Second, the personnel treat me like an idiot who's never played (even though I explain gently to them that I do). 

Also, My whole gaming group has learned about WFb (and later WH40k) through the internet. We tought ourselves to model, paint and play. We do so in my friend's basement.

Maybe we're not the norm, who knows? But I'll still buy online, no matter what...

Phil


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Where are GW's located in Aus? Isn't there only one in Queensland? Brisbane? 4 hours from my town? I could understand it if it is like London where there are 3 or 4 different stores, but Australia doesn't have many to begin with. Reasonable though, but I think they're hoping our economy will tank.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

The bitch of it all is that Mark Wells is correct (i hate to admit this). 

KoC has it wrong, if GW Australia closed all of it's stores the hobby dies, more than 10,000 folks will lose their jobs, independent retailers will then be forced to import all GW product from overseas, they will then have to contend with imoprtation expediture and the like.

This will be even more expensive and as for wargaming clubs in my area we had four (4) wargaming clubs 12 months ago but now that is down to one (1), why? that is a qustion i can't answer.

We need GW to have a bricks and mortar outlets if Warhammer/LotR is to survive.

But i'll still buy exclusively from EBay, i am a hypocrate.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

They're fucking dreaming if they think this sob story will make me pay full retail for their products. I've found a local internet vendor that sells GW products at a 25% discount, not as good as Wayland I know, but far better than paying full retail. I'm also going to look into getting friends in the EU to receive orders from Wayland for me and then redirect them here, this however will depend on how much postage will cost me.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Carna said:


> Where are GW's located in Aus? Isn't there only one in Queensland? Brisbane? 4 hours from my town? I could understand it if it is like London where there are 3 or 4 different stores, but Australia doesn't have many to begin with. Reasonable though, but I think they're hoping our economy will tank.


In some ways you have hit on a key point. For GW to open more stores they have to make enough margin on product to have enough profits to invest in more stores. Now I know some will not want stores but then again the people those stores employ and the support jobs around the shop i.e. other businesses may not share the same viewpoint. In a way. The internet has probably created more unemployment. This is something we can all moan about as well but everytime we buy the over the internet (I do to) we hurt employment in our own small way for our own small profit.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

My FLGS has had 4 different owners in 10 years. They're still there and trying. If they lowered the cost even by 15% people would buy in store. $6 for a pot of paint? I'd rather go to Maccas and get a $5 lunch deal and 2 soft serve cones thanks.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Carna said:


> Where are GW's located in Aus? Isn't there only one in Queensland? Brisbane? 4 hours from my town? I could understand it if it is like London where there are 3 or 4 different stores, but Australia doesn't have many to begin with. Reasonable though, but I think they're hoping our economy will tank.


In Brisbane there are 3 that I know of...Mt Gravatt (Bunker), Brisbane City and Chermside. There was a fourth (Carindale) but it closed a few months back.
There's also one on the Gold Coast..so they're all roughly within 2 hours of each other.

In other States I am a bit clueless as to how many there are.

I don't agree wih KOC that it won't matter that GW stores close down...there are many gamers who use them to play a game at. I have no idea how many sales they generate though.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Carna said:


> My FLGS has had 4 different owners in 10 years. They're still there and trying. If they lowered the cost even by 15% people would buy in store. $6 for a pot of paint? I'd rather go to Maccas and get a $5 lunch deal and 2 soft serve cones thanks.


If the FLGS was profitable it probably wouldn't have changed ownership 4 times. These people are probably trying to make it work because of their love for the hobby or they are misguided in thinking maybe they can make something work that others haven't. I have seen the same pattern in the UK and eventually they shut completely. In recent years this has mainly been due to them trying to compete with internet prices.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> If the FLGS was profitable it probably wouldn't have changed ownership 4 times. These people are probably trying to make it work because of their love for the hobby or they are misguided in thinking maybe they can meke something work that others haven't. I have seen the same pattern in the UK and eventually they shut completely. In recent years this had mainly been de to them trying to compete with internet prices.


That's the point though, how can they make a profit with such high costs? If people walk into a FLGS, see it's $6 for a pot of paint, $60 for a box set, they're going to think "what else costs $60? Oh right, a couple cartons of grog." and walk back out.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Carna said:


> That's the point though, how can they make a profit with such high costs? If people walk into a FLGS, see it's $6 for a pot of paint, $60 for a box set, they're going to think "what else costs $60? Oh right, a couple cartons of grog." and walk back out.


Personally I think if you are happy to throw $6 on maccas then spending money isn't probably as important to you as you think. Especially when it's no good for you, although it may taste nice. In truth I think people spend what they want how they want these days if they really want something. If I remember back to my youth I had to save for ages to get some things I wanted and thats how it was those days. Now I see kids bitch their parents in whatever store and they just buckle and spend £100 on the brat without batting an eye lid. This is also reflected in modern society in the must have it now culture that exists these days or at least did before the crunch. In response to how can they make a profit. GW have basically done what a lot haven't got the balls to do or are not in a strong enough position to do. I suppose it all comes down to if your willing to spend that extra 15-20% in shop.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> Personally I think if you are happy to throw $6 on maccas then spending money isn't probably as important to you as you think. Especially when it's no good for you, although it may taste nice. In truth I think people spend what they want how they want these days if they really want something. If I remember back to my youth I had to save for ages to get some things I wanted and thats how it was those days. Now I see kids bitch their parents in whatever store and they just buckle and spend £100 on the brat without batting an eye lid. This is also reflected in modern society in the must have it now culture that exists these days or at least did before the crunch. In response to how can they make a profit. GW have basically done what a lot haven't got the balls to do or are not in a strong enough position to do. I suppose it all comes down to if your willing to spend that extra 15-20% in shop.


Fair point. The McDonalds part was just an example of what, by comparison, you can get instead of over-priced paint.


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## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

HOBO said:


> In Brisbane there are 3 that I know of...Mt Gravatt (Bunker), Brisbane City and Chermside. There was a fourth (Carindale) but it closed a few months back.


There are also a few independents that stock GW stuff around to. There is also a "Webstore" that is Brisbane based and offers a small discount on most goods. I know of none further north though (none in T'ville, might be one in Cairns).

The Carindale store shut? Been a few months since I went near there, but it was always fairly busy.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Yes there are a few Indies...Toyworld been one. Irresistible Force run an on-line Store as well as having an actual shop - 15% off I think is their discount. They play mainly Warmachine though...used to be right into Fantasy but ditched it when 8th Ed hit.

I believe Carindale closed due to rent increases...don't quote me for certain though.


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## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

Biellann said:


> I know of none further north though (none in T'ville, might be one in Cairns)


There's two in Townsville. One Toyworld (Which has a very limited range, but is all 20% off at the moment) and Fortress Games. I think Fortress Games does okay because they sell lots of Anime movies, as far as I know they're the only store in Townsville that does.

Anyway, GW's response seems somewhat reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact that I can't afford their prices anymore. In building my renegade guard army I'll simply use whatever cool looking substitutes I can find from other mini manufacturers.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i dont understand why GW doesnt take the same approach as Apple does here in the US - have 1-2 stores per city with more than 1 million people (not a whole lot/nowhere near you :laugh

or just the major cities and then just have a warehouse glorified up to being a "distribution center" which can supply all the stores in the country/region.

seems like it would reduce the amount of GW stores allowing them to simply hold the product while independent stores call them up for orders. allowing the 3rd party stores to sell it at whatever price is beneficial for them to still get a profit.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

IF Hobby centers are so important then why the hell has the store they promised us 6 months ago magically disappeared form ever existing? I call bull shit and we all know they get a hell of a profit off us.


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## GhostDog (Apr 16, 2010)

GhostDog said:


> I'm sure the official story is to protect the sales by independant retailers in the countries affected. However if GW had better prices then they wouldn't have to protect the sales.


I was quite close. However they're kidding themselves if they think this will bring in more money. The reason I don't buy from GW stores or FLGS's in NZ not because I can get it cheaper online, it's because I can't afford to buy them there. So now I won't buy any GW models any where, so now they won't get any money from me. If I was still able to buy from UK online they would at least get the money from me that way.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> Seems pretty reasonable to me.


when you look at it like that it makes total sense and is reasonable. I like my local GW store manager and wouldn't want to see him out of a job. He probably doesn't get paid enough as it is for the shitty job he has to do.

Rev


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

What seems to be missed is that if you're not buying from GW because you're buying from 3rd party distributors like Wayland already then you're really not supporting GW. The point of their recent actions is that they as a company aren't getting the support they need to maintain their business - you can still continue to buy from ebay stores like hoard-o-bits or whomever but by doing so you're still part of the problem. If you vilify GW don't play their games. It is as simple as that. There are all sorts of other mini-games out there if you'd prefer to deal with a "softer" company - privateer press has a couple good systems, flames of war, etc.

You can say that their CO just gave you "company line bullshit" but there is a reason that "bullshit" is company line. It's because at the most fundamental level it is true. We can look and say "shame on GW, making those guys in the southern hemisphere foot our bill!" but hey, 

If they don't buy, GW sells less.
If GW sells, they have less income for development
If GW spends less on game development, they lose existing customers & fail to gain new ones
If that happens, they have even less income for games development, etc

It isn't just Australia & New Zealand; if Canadian's quite playing it will be the same. Germans? You bet it is the same.

It is laughable to believe that GW (or any company) providing goods and or services to a buyer's market would be willingly putting the screws to their customers. Please refer to these threads for some good discussion that has occured regarding price fixing: here or here. Simply put, the prices aren't arbitrarily decided & no _evil suit_ decided to fuck over the southern hemisphere. Prices are set based on the agregate cost of production & distribution with a mark-up which is determined by primarily (2) factors: a) market trending, which is based primarily on the current competition & what corporate determines a market is willing to pay; b) growth strategy. See my point above for why a growth strategy matters.


Also, in regards to the import of frontline locations - what made you choose warhammer? Was it a vague concept you saw on the internet or read about in a magazine? Was it the DOW video games? Did you walk into a GW / local retailer & see people playing the game & your interest was sparked? Well, if you answered anything except DOW you need to recognize that on some level the retailers were important. If nobody _ever_ went to a GW store then what would have separated WH40K from any other miniature game? In my city we're lucky enough to have the largest gaming store in western Canada - there are litterally dozens of miniature games on display. Why do I play 40K & not some other game? Because it was a GW store that got me & my friends interested in miniatures in the first place. Without one I never would have gone to the Sentry Box & seen the other offerings on the market. Now you may say that you were introduced by someone else, but where were they introduced? Or the person who introduced them? Ultimately it comes back to that front line marketing. That must be established for word of mouth to take over. 

Well what about getting your intro from the internet? Well, those fansites & forums like Heresy here, all started by folks who were introduced to the hobby & became passionate. Where were they introduced? (see above for answer...).

Presence & branding matters. When you go into a retail outlet & see a section of shelving loaded with whatever gubbins you're after you know that either (a) the customers demand that product, or (b) the seller paid for that display. Why would the seller pay for that display & shelf space? well, so people buy their product, like it and then begin to insist that said product is carried. Without the presence the product is lost amongst the masses - this is why Justin Bieber will sell 2.5 million albums where someone else will struggle to sell 2.5 thousand.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Well it's nice they gave such an indepth response, although I suspect anyone else would get exactly the same cut and paste pre prepared answer as well.

I would like to point out that I said all of those things a few days ago (I'm shocked how accurate I was!) and I was utterly hammered for it...


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

I can't believe you guys are buying it.



> Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists.


I'd make the opposite accusation: that GW Australia has been exploiting the currency movements by charging an unreasonably high wholesale price for their product (which _doesn't_ include the costs for a retailer to run a store), and that this is simply an attempt to protect their monopolistic pricing structure.



> the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country.


Maelstrom and their kin have done far more for the hobby than GW Australia ever will. By charging a fair price instead of twice as much, they make it far easier for _gamers_ to grow the hobby, by word of mouth. You know, the form of advertising GW claims to think is vitally important.


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## GhostDog (Apr 16, 2010)

clever handle said:


> What seems to be missed is that if you're not buying from GW because you're buying from 3rd party distributors like Wayland already then you're really not supporting GW. The point of their recent actions is that they as a company aren't getting the support they need to maintain their business - you can still continue to buy from ebay stores like hoard-o-bits or whomever but by doing so you're still part of the problem. If you vilify GW don't play their games. It is as simple as that. There are all sorts of other mini-games out there if you'd prefer to deal with a "softer" company - privateer press has a couple good systems, flames of war, etc.
> 
> You can say that their CO just gave you "company line bullshit" but there is a reason that "bullshit" is company line. It's because at the most fundamental level it is true. We can look and say "shame on GW, making those guys in the southern hemisphere foot our bill!" but hey,
> 
> ...


I have to disagree here. If I buy from Wayland Games or some other 3rd party distributor then I am still supporting GW. Where do you think these 3rd parties get there miniatures from? Do they make them? No. They buy them from GW. Sure if I went to a GW store, then GW would more money as they would get the extra margin that all stores put on the product, however I can't afford to buy direct from them or from a local FLGS. I couldn't before the price rise and I can't after. Also how many of these 3rd party distributors have gaming tables of there own and that is a supporting the hobby. Sure only the locals can use these resources, but this is also true for the GW stores.
I personally have no problem with the price rise. Price rises happen all the time everywhere, its a fact of life. Also all hobbies are expensive I know this and luckily this hobby is reasonably cheap in the long run. I buy a model and I have that for life. I don't have to upgrade when the model I have because it is ruined from overuse (unless you paint it over and over). Sure you might have to change a model or 2 in your army to make it legal or competitive, but that really isn't that expensive. My wife (and a lot of girls) apply a 'cost per wear' amount to the clothes she buys. Where the more she wears it the better it is as she is getting more return the the initial outlay. This hobby has a 'cost per play' element. However when that initial outlay becomes more than what people consider reasonable, decisions must be made.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Jeeze, wish my wife did that...

She goes with the theory 'have cash, will spend'.

But for me, GW has the best cash for hours of use return of any hobby going. The only thing that has a better value for use is my computer, but that's because I use it for work as well.

A single box of 10 figures works out at less than a £1 and hour just through me building and painting them.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Well i think that the response is reasonable and confirms what has been said by me and others, this change was made because GW Australia cant run stores and fill them with players who bought everything from wayland etc , what will be interesting is how this will effect the UK traders... nobody has mentioned what impact this will have on them, after all if they are shifting enough GW gear down under to force a change to terms and conditions i can imagine its gonna have a knock on effect.


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## GhostDog (Apr 16, 2010)

I disagree with he first part and agree with the second part


AlexHolker said:


> I can't believe you guys are buying it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But would you do if every week you went into your FLGS or GW aus store and all the prices had changed? Cause if they followed the exchange rate then this would happen. GW Aus have to set a price and for good or bad they have to stick to it. Sure sometimes it would be good for you and sometimes bad. Having to watch the exchange rates to see if I was going to buy models that week would be annoying. I understand this is done when shopping with Maelstrom or any other UK online supplier but it is far easier looking at the prices online than driving to the local store to see what they are charging this week.



AlexHolker said:


> Maelstrom and their kin have done far more for the hobby than GW Australia ever will. By charging a fair price instead of twice as much, they make it far easier for _gamers_ to grow the hobby, by word of mouth. You know, the form of advertising GW claims to think is vitally important.


I agree. Although a big part of GW's advertising is the stores themselves with the 'Hey what's this' factor.


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## GhostDog (Apr 16, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Jeeze, wish my wife did that...
> 
> She goes with the theory 'have cash, will spend'.
> 
> ...


lol.. My wife does that too. She just tries to justify it with 'cost per wear'


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

I can tell you straight up and down it's a fat load of shit. There aren't any solid answers besides "Oh, we have to pay our staff and bills in AUD". And the prices could be fair and equivalent and you'd be doing fine.

The simple fact of the matter is anything imported into the country has a fat profit margin tacked onto it simply because it's 'imported'. It's not to actually cover the cost disparity of shipping it here, it's bald-faced greed. _Everyone_ does it so that somehow makes it OK, and the Australian consumers continue to complacently take it up the ass.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> I can tell you straight up and down it's a fat load of shit. There aren't any solid answers besides "Oh, we have to pay our staff and bills in AUD". And the prices could be fair and equivalent and you'd be doing fine.
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is anything imported into the country has a fat profit margin tacked onto it simply because it's 'imported'. It's not to actually cover the cost disparity of shipping it here, it's bald-faced greed. _Everyone_ does it so that somehow makes it OK, and the Australian consumers continue to complacently take it up the ass.


'everyone does it'

Sorry, can you not see then that if EVERYONE does it there probably is a illegitimate reason for doing so...


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

GhostDog said:


> GW Aus have to set a price and for good or bad they have to stick to it.


They've never held themselves to this requirement. If they did, we wouldn't have annual price hikes.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

AlexHolker said:


> They've never held themselves to this requirement. If they did, we wouldn't have annual price hikes.


Of course not. Prices of everything go up every year and that's compounded when you are a third or fourt in the chain producer because the costs of all the products in the chain before you have also gone up.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> It is reasonable, and i can fully understand why they are doing it.
> 
> Australia has high living costs, high rent, high wages, and as a result they need to charge extra for their models.
> 
> ...





Carna said:


> Where are GW's located in Aus? Isn't there only one in Queensland? Brisbane? 4 hours from my town? I could understand it if it is like London where there are 3 or 4 different stores, but Australia doesn't have many to begin with. Reasonable though, but I think they're hoping our economy will tank.





AlexHolker said:


> I can't believe you guys are buying it.
> 
> 
> I'd make the opposite accusation: that GW Australia has been exploiting the currency movements by charging an unreasonably high wholesale price for their product (which _doesn't_ include the costs for a retailer to run a store), and that this is simply an attempt to protect their monopolistic pricing structure.
> ...





Maidel said:


> 'everyone does it'
> 
> Sorry, can you not see then that if EVERYONE does it there probably is a illegitimate reason for doing so...



It sounds reasonable to me in a sense. Admittedly I visit a GW regularly to game and partake of the hobby. They no longer pressure me into sales, they are firends more than anything. 

It has been some time since I bought anything substantial, and still they have no issue with me using their venue to paint my models and game with the other regulars. I will definitely hope the best for them, but at the same time my spending of late has decreased dramatically and will likely continue to be very slow. 

To those who say Aussie GW stores are pointless, you are wrong. There are over a hundred odd customers who visit the stores across the greater sydney area on a regular basis. They are the ideal environment to game without the strings of being attached to a club. There is no reason to believe that shutting all these stores down would be beneficial, I for one would miss them despite everything that has happened these past few weeks.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> It is reasonable, and i can fully understand why they are doing it.
> 
> Australia has high living costs, high rent, high wages, and as a result they need to charge extra for their models.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

This is what Wizards of the coast did in 2000-2001 and it was a Win scenario.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

GhostDog said:


> But would you do if every week you went into your FLGS or GW aus store and all the prices had changed? Cause if they followed the exchange rate then this would happen. GW Aus have to set a price and for good or bad they have to stick to it. Sure sometimes it would be good for you and sometimes bad. Having to watch the exchange rates to see if I was going to buy models that week would be annoying. I understand this is done when shopping with Maelstrom or any other UK online supplier but it is far easier looking at the prices online than driving to the local store to see what they are charging this week.


The wonderful invention of th phone would come in handy
but they don't need to adjust prices every week. sure there are fluctuations, but these are usually minimal, just a couple of cents either way. Dramatic changes in currency value happen over a period of time unless an economy collapses or suffers a major blow. An annual price review would do the trick, just to keep GW products slightly in line with exchange rates.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> 'everyone does it'
> 
> Sorry, can you not see then that if EVERYONE does it there probably is a illegitimate reason for doing so...


Simple answer is because they can. There is a cost involved, with import tariffs, but it's nowhere near the price markup on imported goods. Automotive manufacturers are the worst offenders.


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

Forgeworld do not contribute to GW Aus either, but they have no restrictions.

They are also, in some cases, now cheaper to buy direct from forgeworld than buying plastic from a local GW store in Australia.

The answer wasnt to restrict sales, it was to alleviate the cost disparity.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

A quick look on Wikipedia shows that Minimum wage in Aus-Land is $15 per hours. A Land Raider is $103. If you work a minimum wage job for less than 7 hours you make enough for a Land Raider, not counting all deductions.

Minimum wage in the US is $7.25 on the hour. You must work at least 8&1/2 hours to make enough money to buy a Land Raider without any deductions. So in all truths and percentages the people from down under already get it cheaper than the consumers in the US do.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

OIIIIIIO said:


> A quick look on Wikipedia shows that Minimum wage in Aus-Land is $15 per hours. A Land Raider is $103. If you work a minimum wage job for less than 7 hours you make enough for a Land Raider, not counting all deductions.
> 
> Minimum wage in the US is $7.25 on the hour. You must work at least 8&1/2 hours to make enough money to buy a Land Raider without any deductions. So in all truths and percentages the people from down under already get it cheaper than the consumers in the US do.


and in the UK it would be about 6.5 hours, so it sounds to me that all this stems from high costs of living rather than maliciousness on GW's part.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> and in the UK it would be about 6.5 hours, so it sounds to me that all this stems from high costs of living rather than maliciousness on GW's part.


Wait no don't tell them that...I am making a fortune off of torches and pitch forks right now...lol


Doc


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, the fact that GW felt and obligation to responds means one thing to me: they know that it was a wrong move and they feel they have crossed a line. No matter how they sugar-coat it, it's really lies. What they want is to profit from currency variation by forcing us to buy locally in local currency. If they really cared that much about "not eroding the customer base", they would at the very least have adjusted the local prices accordingly. In the last two years the Pound has lost about 10% in regards to the Canadian $. Yet, I still pay a lot more. Can they justify that ordering a box of GKs from GW Canada is 35% more expensive (33.5CDN$-VAT included from GW UK vs 45CDN$-local taxes included from GW Canada!!!)? Heck, can they justify that, even though our dollars are at parity for more than 3 years, there is ALSO 20% difference (before any taxes) between GW US and GW Canada!? What, because they "prevent eroding the customer base" by maintaining a tiny GW Store in one of the most expensive mall downtown Montreal(I know, I used to own a store there)? 

Oh, and please let's not compare "Minimum Wage". Let's compare "net income". Because yes, minimum wage is about 10$ here, compared to 7.25$ in the US. But our taxes are a lot higher, so I actually keep less in my pocket...

Please, let's not be fooled by the "We are so kind because we take time to answer" charade. It's probably written by the same lawyers who justified the BP spill by letting us know that BP was a friendly company trying to share the oil with Mother Nature.

It's really sad...

Phil


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> Well, the fact that GW felt and obligation to responds means one thing to me: they know that it was a wrong move and they feel they have crossed a line. No matter how they sugar-coat it, it's really lies. What they want is to profit from currency variation by forcing us to buy locally in local currency.


whats wrong with profiting from a situation that exists if you can exploit it?would any other company do it differently? why should we expect GW to be any different?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

boreas said:


> Edit:
> Oh, and please let's not compare "Minimum Wage". Let's compare "net income". Because yes, minimum wage is about 10$ here, compared to 7.25$ in the US. But our taxes are a lot higher, so I actually keep less in my pocket...
> 
> Please, let's not be fooled by the "We are so kind because we take time to answer" charade. It's probably written by the same lawyers who justified the BP spill by letting us know that BP was a friendly company trying to share the oil with Mother Nature.
> ...


The reason I only brought Minimum wage in as a factor was because I really did not want to bring other things into it. Yes you pay more for your taxes but you also pay nothing for your healthcare. I pay MUCH more in taxes and healthcare than any Canadian does. My payscale is $26.38 an hour. My benefits cost an additional $14 an hour. $2.02 of that 14 is my Annuity fund and $3.27 is for my pension. The rest is for my medical and dental insurance.
Can you honestly say that you are paying more than $2,550 a month in taxes?
That is what I pay in taxes and insurance every month, over $1,300 is pure insurance. Now I make a decent wage for a living but I also have the fourth most dangerous job in the world. I honestly think that it is only fair that they should have to pay a little more as they have been getting it cheap for years, and it is STILL cheaper than what I can get it for. GW is doing the right thing here I think. It is hardly fair that you could put a large army togther for a cheaper price than the rest of us.

That is how I feel about it after just a little bit of research.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

OIIIIIIO said:


> . Now I make a decent wage for a living but I also have the fourth most dangerous job in the world.



whats the fourth most dangerous job in the world then?
1.bitz supplier (constant assassination attempts by extremist militant donkeys)
2.crab fisherman
3.Matt Ward
4?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Ironworker .... not sure what other countries call us but, we connect steel structures together like skyscrapers, bridges, and most of the time are unable to tie off to anything as there is no such thing as a sky hook. Highest height I have worked at not tied off is 805 feet. I often call myself a paid retard. There is something wrong with you if you have no qualms about walking on a piece of steel 2 inches wide and are about 140 feet off the ground. I love it though because when I meet new people and I tell them what I do they usually say " No way in hell would I do that." It makes me smile every time. That is why on my little army thing that Varakir made it says We walk where others tremble.


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## Gog (May 27, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> whats the fourth most dangerous job in the world then?
> 1.bitz supplier (constant assassination attempts by extremist militant donkeys)
> 2.crab fisherman
> 3.Matt Ward
> 4?


1.bitz supplier (constant assassination attempts by extremist militant donkeys)
2.crab fisherman
3.Matt Ward
4.Justin bieber

Kill HIIIIIIIM


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Is your avatar you pushing your competition off that very thin steel girder.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Justin Bieber ... first time I saw him I did't know if I wanted to fight him or fuck him.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

GhostDog said:


> I have to disagree here. If I buy from Wayland Games or some other 3rd party distributor then I am still supporting GW. Where do you think these 3rd parties get there miniatures from? Do they make them? No. They buy them from GW. Sure if I went to a GW store, then GW would more money as they would get the extra margin that all stores put on the product, however I can't afford to buy direct from them or from a local FLGS. I couldn't before the price rise and I can't after. Also how many of these 3rd party distributors have gaming tables of there own and that is a supporting the hobby. Sure only the locals can use these resources, but this is also true for the GW stores.


You are supporting GW, but not GW in your area & by doing so you are not helping them to absorb the costs they incure by providing you with their goods. By purchasing from a discount retailer in another part of the world you are not helping GW offset the costs of shipping, import tarifs, domestic transportation, domestic holding costs, wages for their employees. I can't speak to the stores in anyone else's area but in mine almost all dedicated hobby centers have tables set up that on certain nights play WHFB, WH40K, warmachine, etc.
Now again, maybe you & your friends are able to play in someone's garage, basement or wherever, but without domestic retailers where do you find new players to expand your group?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> whats wrong with profiting from a situation that exists if you can exploit it?would any other company do it differently? why should we expect GW to be any different?


Maybe we should not... But then again, as a pharmacist, I expect big pharmas not to act like douchbags (yet they do, and I complain against that on other venues). I also expect all companies to stop acting like they own their customers. I think it's a global problem with the economy right now. But in this particular world that is "miniature wargaming", I expect, and will try to pressure, GW not acting like buttholes towards their customers. 

Let me give you an example. I own a drugstore. Yet, when someone comes in and he/she doesn't need medication, I just don't sell them anything. I tell them to use the Tylenol they already have at home, drink plenty of water and rest. I also know that I then build trust with that customer and that, we needed, he/she will quite probably come back to see me. 

So yes, screwing customers is what most companies do. Should that justify what GW does? No.

Idealist much? Yes.

Phil

ps @OIIIIIIO: I know you can't straight compare gross income, net income or most other factor. Because then again my healthcare doesn't cost anything, but my gas is higher, etc. etc. I didn't mean to snipe at you. The thing is 25+% discrepancies in price between countries for a similar product isn't right. And blocking international trade to personally profit from that price difference is NOT really justified because they encourage local employees/business. The real reason behind this charade is that GW puts most of that difference in their pockets.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

boreas said:


> Maybe we should not... But then again, as a pharmacist, I expect big pharmas not to act like douchbags (yet they do, and I complain against that on other venues). I also expect all companies to stop acting like they own their customers. I think it's a global problem with the economy right now. But in this particular world that is "miniature wargaming", I expect, and will try to pressure, GW not acting like buttholes towards their customers.
> 
> Let me give you an example. I own a drugstore. Yet, when someone comes in and he/she doesn't need medication, I just don't sell them anything. I tell them to use the Tylenol they already have at home, drink plenty of water and rest. I also know that I then build trust with that customer and that, we needed, he/she will quite probably come back to see me.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

Good, solid, fair dialogue.


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

clever handle said:


> You are supporting GW, but not GW in your area & by doing so you are not helping them to absorb the costs they incure by providing you with their goods. By purchasing from a discount retailer in another part of the world you are not helping GW offset the costs of shipping, import tarifs, domestic transportation, domestic holding costs, wages for their employees.


Blatant lies.

By purchasing from a discount retailer _who ships the product themselves_ you are reducing the amount of product that _GW_ ships to Australia, which pretty much by definition reduces their costs of shipping, tariffs, domestic transportation, etc, etc.

Import tariffs are 5% on toys and 0% on model kits, not 60-70%.

And the reason Australian prices are so high is largely because GWAU's _wholesale_ price is high. If Mark Wells claims that charging independant retailers twice as much for their product is meant to help subsidise their higher costs for labour in Australia, when this price is _in addition_ to the cost of labour, he is either a liar or a moron.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

by purchasing from other vendors you are removing the revenue from GWAU which hurts their ability to employ front line retailers which then hurts their ability to gain & maintain market visibility.

I don't know the specifics as to where the actual breakdown of costs lies (as I'm not a GW employee), but if you refer to the discussion in the links I posted in a previous post you'll see that the relative higher dollar costs seen in many regions is offset by the higher minimum & avereage incomes.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Justin Bieber ... first time I saw him I did't know if I wanted to fight him or fuck him.


Pedo? dun know yur sex, but im assuming like most people male, so gay pedo? XD


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> whats the fourth most dangerous job in the world then?...
> 
> 3.Matt Ward


Oh, I dunno. Ward-wrangling isn't so bad, as long as you keep your wits about you and make sure you've taken your fluff-supplement tablets that day. On the induction day they showed us the film of the guy who forgot to take his tabs, though...man, that was rough. 2 hours of exposure to the Wardster, and he'd turned into a Possessed Tyranid working alongside the Necrons to help Roboute Guilliman and Abaddon turn Titan into a Sororitas theme park, complete with force rollercoasters and everything. 

The lesson...? _Always_ take your fluff tablets.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

docgeo said:


> Wait no don't tell them that...I am making a fortune off of torches and pitch forks right now...lol
> 
> 
> Doc


Hope they're at a decent cost for the average worker.:wink:


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## nogginthenog (Sep 8, 2008)

clever handle said:


> by purchasing from other vendors you are removing the revenue from GWAU which hurts their ability to employ front line retailers which then hurts their ability to gain & maintain market visibility.
> 
> I don't know the specifics as to where the actual breakdown of costs lies (as I'm not a GW employee), but if you refer to the discussion in the links I posted in a previous post you'll see that the relative higher dollar costs seen in many regions is offset by the higher minimum & avereage incomes.


GW AU, just as GW UK, has a history of opening stores next door/close to independants in decent catchment areas and putting them out of business, and this is why the whole 'we need to give you places to play' is bullshit.

It wasnt important when they were closing stores that provided that before they turned up.

This is about profit. What he is saying , is wayland, maelstrom et al , and customers, are using the strong $AU to their advantage by getting stuff cheaper.

What he wants is to use it to his advantage by using it to increase profits.

Within their rights as a company? Most certainly.

Short term gain at the expense of longer term growth?
Remains to be seen. I think they are vulnerable to a well organised sales campaign from Corvus Belli or Privateer Press, especially in New Zealand, where they don't even hold tournaments any longer.


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## Whamhammer (Jan 19, 2009)

Yeah this is bullshit, especially for us New Zealanders, there's like 3 gw stores in the whole country. So there whole argument seems like crap to me.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Whamhammer said:


> Yeah this is bullshit, especially for us New Zealanders, there's like 3 gw stores in the whole country. So there whole argument seems like crap to me.


well surely that is proof that it isnt bullshit, if GW had the sales in your nation you would have expanded to more stores, but if those three stores are suffering GW wont expand and may even close those, so its not bull shit is it?


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> Hope they're at a decent cost for the average worker.:wink:


Well there is shipping cost, the torches have hazmat fuel on them so that is a higher cost, then my workers are demanding more breaks and this droped their unit per hours production rate,...etc:laugh:

Doc


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## Jormungandr (May 11, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> well surely that is proof that it isnt bullshit, if GW had the sales in your nation you would have expanded to more stores, but if those three stores are suffering GW wont expand and may even close those, so its not bull shit is it?


Precisely! If they dont get 1st hand sales, they cannot afford to keep the few stores they have open, and will hardly be inclined to open more, because they will (quite rightly) assume there is little to no interest in their products, and probably (again, quite rightly) close 2 of those stores.

People seem to believe that buying from 3rd party retailers is the same as buying direct are sadly mistaken. Indie retailers pay wholesale price for those products, and apply markup upto RRP. Regardless of what you then pay for it, GW still only get that wholesale price in their coffers, with wholesale generally only being between 30% and 60% of retail price, dependant on profit margins for that particular item.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Katie for putting up the GW response. Althought there is a lot about the response that makes a lot of sense, I'm still not convinced.
Here is an alternative view (maybe a bit of a conspiracy theory, but hey, I will leave it to you what you think).
GW's experiment with independents has back-fired. Not long ago there were big adverts in white dwarf asking anyone with a shop to sell their product. You could even win a prize if you nominated a shop and they took up the stock.
Some stores have been very successful - Wayland, Maelstrum etc. They have sold a lot of GW product and GW were initially very happy. However, these stores have exposed gamers to a wider market of wargaming products and sytems. Gamers have looked at these systems and like them, so have moved away from, or split their dollar, on rivals. GW does not like this turn of events. They want you to enter a store that sells only GW product. They want you to buy direct as it increases their profit. They don't want you to see other systrms in case you wake up and realise GW are not the only system out there, and god forbid, you find a better one!
I predict this will be the first wave of attacks on indie sellers. I would not be surprised if the new terms and conditions in the future reduce the discount they can sell at in the UK and EU. GW has realised indie sellers are now a threat to their position and will try to protect themselves.
From a G-dub point of view it is the right thing to do, but it does undermine the wider hobby of gaming, and that is why I oppose it.


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## mic1402 (Jun 4, 2010)

slaaneshy said:


> Thanks Katie for putting up the GW response. Althought there is a lot about the response that makes a lot of sense, I'm still not convinced.
> Here is an alternative view (maybe a bit of a conspiracy theory, but hey, I will leave it to you what you think).
> GW's experiment with independents has back-fired. Not long ago there were big adverts in white dwarf asking anyone with a shop to sell their product. You could even win a prize if you nominated a shop and they took up the stock.
> Some stores have been very successful - Wayland, Maelstrum etc. They have sold a lot of GW product and GW were initially very happy. However, these stores have exposed gamers to a wider market of wargaming products and sytems. Gamers have looked at these systems and like them, so have moved away from, or split their dollar, on rivals. GW does not like this turn of events. They want you to enter a store that sells only GW product. They want you to buy direct as it increases their profit. They don't want you to see other systrms in case you wake up and realise GW are not the only system out there, and god forbid, you find a better one!
> ...



that theory makes abit of sense if you consider GW's policy of: "you use miniatures from other company's? KILL THE HERETIC!"


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> well surely that is proof that it isnt bullshit, if GW had the sales in your nation you would have expanded to more stores, but if those three stores are suffering GW wont expand and may even close those, so its not bull shit is it?


Not necessarily. Maybe in most areas, there isn't a good enough population density to have more stores. In sprawling suburbia, kids from 14-20 don't always have cars and having to get to a store isn't a possibility. The few in our gaming groups that played WH40k during their school years did so through school clubs. Sure, at the time they bought through stores (it was the mid-90s). But now, I'd be surprised if kids (or their parents) didn't order through the internet instead of driving 20-25 minutes both ways to buy their models. 

Plus, there is the whole experience gamers that they, once again, kick in the shin. I know, I'll get the whole "it's the new players that bring in the money" thing. Still, we are not insignificant (and would be even more important if for once GW catered to vets). In my area, the older gamers (myself included) don't like to go and buy stuff. First, I have to drive 20-25 minutes both ways. Then I have to browse through the GW section (not always orderly) to try and see if the have the blister/box that I want, then I have to chit-chat with the guy at the cash who is very interested in trying to show me what I should do with my army. Of course, I could tell him to shut the frak up, but I'm a decent person. With a full time job, a house, a wife and 2 kids, that's an hour+ that I don't want to spend. I want to "click-click" buy my tiny plastic soldiers and find them on my doorstep a few days later and not pay the "keep the FLGS alive" premium.

And with that GW still gets my money (and they deserve it, make no mistake, because they make awesome kits). But they don't get to profit of me just because of currency market conjuncture. If GKs are 35% more expensive that Tac SM because they are a much better kit, I don't mind paying: GW deserves my money, If my GK squad is 33% more expensive in Canada than it is in the neighboring US because GW profits of currency change, they DON'T deserve me to pay that money.

And this is not GW-hate. I buy stuff locally if it will help local producers(most of my fruits and vegetables come from a nearby Bio farm and are grown locally. It's important to me. But internationally-made thing like my home-theater projector, I'll buy anywhere in the world that will sell for less. My high-canadian dollar is costing jobs here in Canada because we, as a country will sell less internationally. We might as well profit from it buy buying international stuff for less. Global economy can't just advantage corporations.

Phil


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Jormungandr said:


> Precisely! If they dont get 1st hand sales, they cannot afford to keep the few stores they have open, and will hardly be inclined to open more, because they will (quite rightly) assume there is little to no interest in their products, and probably (again, quite rightly) close 2 of those stores.
> 
> People seem to believe that buying from 3rd party retailers is the same as buying direct are sadly mistaken. Indie retailers pay wholesale price for those products, and apply markup upto RRP. Regardless of what you then pay for it, GW still only get that wholesale price in their coffers, with wholesale generally only being between 30% and 60% of retail price, dependant on profit margins for that particular item.


Fuck there store. Internet and Shipping is the best thing for me. I never been in a GW store and never will. PP doesnt have its own store and its booming. Point is a FLGS or Gaming Club is all that needed. GW stores are worthless. Unless you play GW and GW ONLY. Then go ahead, part with your hard earn money. I enjoy the Hobby, not the GW suck fest.



slaaneshy said:


> Thanks Katie for putting up the GW response. Althought there is a lot about the response that makes a lot of sense, I'm still not convinced.
> Here is an alternative view (maybe a bit of a conspiracy theory, but hey, I will leave it to you what you think).
> GW's experiment with independents has back-fired. Not long ago there were big adverts in white dwarf asking anyone with a shop to sell their product. You could even win a prize if you nominated a shop and they took up the stock.
> Some stores have been very successful - Wayland, Maelstrum etc. They have sold a lot of GW product and GW were initially very happy. However, these stores have exposed gamers to a wider market of wargaming products and sytems. Gamers have looked at these systems and like them, so have moved away from, or split their dollar, on rivals. GW does not like this turn of events. They want you to enter a store that sells only GW product. They want you to buy direct as it increases their profit. They don't want you to see other systrms in case you wake up and realise GW are not the only system out there, and god forbid, you find a better one!
> ...


I perfectly agree. GW are a typical greedy comapany that will attack the fans and seem to belive they are the only gaming company around. Sorry GW you dont have a full monopoly yet.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Fuck there store. Internet and Shipping is the best thing for me. I never been in a GW store and never will. PP doesnt have its own store and its booming. Point is a FLGS or Gaming Club is all that needed. GW stores are worthless. Unless you play GW and GW ONLY. Then go ahead, part with your hard earn money. I enjoy the Hobby, not the GW suck fest.


Im sorry this just doesnt make any sense - how the product is sold has nothing to do with the consumer, its entirely up to the retailer to decide that.

Think about a resturant. Some resturants will make you come to them and sit in the resturant, some will allow you to collect from them, some will offer home delivery and some will offer home delivery ordered over the internet.

Just because you, the consumer, only want to order over the internet for them to deliver to you does not mean that suddenly all resturants will be able to or want to offer that service.

Therefore if the method of purchase is all that is important to you, then you pick a company that will offer that service, dont like it, dont buy it.

This is not some sort of 'We Love GW' - its just that some of us understand why a company works the way it does and dont think they are being unreasonable, stupid, money grabbing or any of the other things that people level at them.


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## qotsa4life (Dec 31, 2009)

I haven't read all the posts about the recent developments, so forgive me if this has already been posted. It is a link to a site that presents some interesting facts and makes suggestions about what disgruntled gamers could do to make things right. 

http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

qotsa4life said:


> I haven't read all the posts about the recent developments, so forgive me if this has already been posted. It is a link to a site that presents some interesting facts and makes suggestions about what disgruntled gamers could do to make things right.
> 
> http://tabletophooligans.com/?p=241


read it and its mostly garbage, guy knows feck all about retail and hes just another internet blogger.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Im sorry this just doesnt make any sense - how the product is sold has nothing to do with the consumer, its entirely up to the retailer to decide that.
> 
> Think about a resturant. Some resturants will make you come to them and sit in the resturant, some will allow you to collect from them, some will offer home delivery and some will offer home delivery ordered over the internet.
> why a company works the way it does and dont think they are being unreasonable, stupid, money grabbing or any of the other things that people level at them.


But there is a major difference. First, restaurants can't sue other restaurants that make the same food. If a Chinese restaurant stops delivering, I can order from another Chinese restaurant. If there was 3-4 big companies that did games with the same amount of gaming material, I'd just switch. The problem here is that GW is a quasi-monopolistic company. Now, that stupid move of theirs might just encourage movement towards other, smaller games (like warmachine) and finally create the competition that should be (and finally allows me to switch). 

The other thing is that I can make food myself. If my local Chinese food restaurant decides it won't allows take-out or delivery, I can go to the grocery and make myself some chicken General Tao. I'm pretty sure GW wouldn't be so cocky if 3D printers were convenient to make affordable and great "home-made" models. Look at how downloads changed the music industry model. Just like the iTune store doesn't give a damn about local CD retailers, GW doens't give a damn about FLGS. 

Now, ultimately, a restaurant wants me to eat as much as I can from them, so it will choose a way to lure me in. Either price and convenience (McDonald's), or high quality (Fancy French restaurant) or specialty food (Sushi Bar). What GW is doing here is cutting on the convenience (price and availability) and positioning itself as a high-quality/specialty company (high price, high quality, unique offer) company. I'm fine with that. But what they are telling me is that when I walk in the restaurant, I'll have to show my passport and I will be charged a premium because I'm born in Canada? Or worst yet, I'll pay a premium at table "x" because they insist the have more waiters at that table?

No matter how this is turned around, it's not a decision to help customers, or local GW stores, or FLGS. It's a decision (quite legal) by the accountants to maximize profit while giving nothing in return. It's, once again, quite legal. It's also a common business pattern used by many industries (cars, electronics, books). It's also, in my very humble opinion, unethical. 

Phil


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> Not necessarily. Maybe in most areas, there isn't a good enough population density to have more stores. In sprawling suburbia, kids from 14-20 don't always have cars and having to get to a store isn't a possibility. The few in our gaming groups that played WH40k during their school years did so through school clubs. Sure, at the time they bought through stores (it was the mid-90s). But now, I'd be surprised if kids (or their parents) didn't order through the internet instead of driving 20-25 minutes both ways to buy their models.
> 
> Plus, there is the whole experience gamers that they, once again, kick in the shin. I know, I'll get the whole "it's the new players that bring in the money" thing. Still, we are not insignificant (and would be even more important if for once GW catered to vets). In my area, the older gamers (myself included) don't like to go and buy stuff. First, I have to drive 20-25 minutes both ways. Then I have to browse through the GW section (not always orderly) to try and see if the have the blister/box that I want, then I have to chit-chat with the guy at the cash who is very interested in trying to show me what I should do with my army. Of course, I could tell him to shut the frak up, but I'm a decent person. With a full time job, a house, a wife and 2 kids, that's an hour+ that I don't want to spend. I want to "click-click" buy my tiny plastic soldiers and find them on my doorstep a few days later and not pay the "keep the FLGS alive" premium.
> 
> ...


Working on the population density it would be about right for new Zealand to have up to 10 stores but at least 4 (one for each of the large citys) and realistically 6 if you think that Aukland could support three plus one in the other three major cities, 53% of the islands population live in the 4 major cities which would be over 2.5 million people give or take. 

So using population density as a key its clear to me that there is room for GW to expand in new zealand, but they havent because the sales are not there to support the store system because people buy online from the UK for cheaper(cant blame them its money after all), but GW has masses of faith in the store system as it is there main way to bring people into the hobby, and im sorry but in the UK atleast the vast majority of people get in to the GW hobby by visiting a shop, how they ended up in the shop is a mystery but the shop is still the way most people discover the hobby, some get directed by DOW but mostly its word of mouth and trying and seeing the games and model in the cabinets in store. Thats what made GW great, thats what GW know and that like it or not is what GW will keep supporting because so far its served them well.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> But there is a major difference. First, restaurants can't sue other restaurants that make the same food. If a Chinese restaurant stops delivering, I can order from another Chinese restaurant. If there was 3-4 big companies that did games with the same amount of gaming material, I'd just switch. The problem here is that GW is a quasi-monopolistic company. Now, that stupid move of theirs might just encourage movement towards other, smaller games (like warmachine) and finally create the competition that should be (and finally allows me to switch).
> 
> The other thing is that I can make food myself. If my local Chinese food restaurant decides it won't allows take-out or delivery, I can go to the grocery and make myself some chicken General Tao. I'm pretty sure GW wouldn't be so cocky if 3D printers were convenient to make affordable and great "home-made" models. Look at how downloads changed the music industry model. Just like the iTune store doesn't give a damn about local CD retailers, GW doens't give a damn about FLGS.
> 
> ...


Well thats not exactly what GW are saying, they are saying these UK food merchants are hurting the food merchants in your own country and fortunately we value the merchants in Canada enough to stop the food merchants in the UK from under cutting them and protecting businesses in your country.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> Thats what made GW great, thats what GW know and that like it or not is what GW will keep supporting because so far its served them well.
> 
> ...
> 
> Well thats not exactly what GW are saying, they are saying these UK food merchants are hurting the food merchants in your own country and fortunately we value the merchants in Canada enough to stop the food merchants in the UK from under cutting them and protecting businesses in your country.


Well, two things... If GW really wanted to support those local store, they would at the very least re-balanced the scales by giving a (small) reduction in prices to show parity. Even with gas prices, it's a lot cheaper for me to drive across the border to the US (45 minutes both ways) to the local US FLGS than to buy from the local (25 minutes both ways) FLGS store. I can still order from the US cheaper than from Canadian internet stores.

Second thing (and responding in a very hypothetical way to your first point), maybe it's a cultural thing? Maybe players from ROW don't like stores as much as UK players do? Maybe with our sprawling suburbias and bigger houses (the average suburbian house, from what I understand is larger than theavarage London house, but maybe I'm very wrong!) with big basements we prefer to drink a few beers while playing in our home?

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> But there is a major difference. First, restaurants can't sue other restaurants that make the same food.


Erm - yes they can. There are 2 big burger chains - they both make burgers, cant sue for that - but if you copied the exact make up of a big mac and called it a 'large mac' then I am pretty damn sure macdonalds could sue you for that.




> If a Chinese restaurant stops delivering, I can order from another Chinese restaurant. If there was 3-4 big companies that did games with the same amount of gaming material, I'd just switch. The problem here is that GW is a quasi-monopolistic company. Now, that stupid move of theirs might just encourage movement towards other, smaller games (like warmachine) and finally create the competition that should be (and finally allows me to switch).


So the problem is in fact that GW are just too good at what they do and you feel there is no viable alternative? Well thats not GWs fault is it?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Erm - yes they can. There are 2 big burger chains - they both make burgers, cant sue for that - but if you copied the exact make up of a big mac and called it a 'large mac' then I am pretty damn sure macdonalds could sue you for that.


So then why don't coke and pepsi sue each other all the time?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> So then why don't coke and pepsi sue each other all the time?


Do a search for 'coke sued pepsi cola coca cola' or some variety of that and you will see the ridiculous number of times they have sued each other for everything from prices, to new coke to bottle shapes.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Erm - yes they can. There are 2 big burger chains - they both make burgers, cant sue for that - but if you copied the exact make up of a big mac and called it a 'large mac' then I am pretty damn sure macdonalds could sue you for that.
> 
> 
> 
> So the problem is in fact that GW are just too good at what they do and you feel there is no viable alternative? Well thats not GWs fault is it?


Sure, but you can take the basic composition of a burger and make it at home. GW is like McDonald on cocaine: it will sue another company because they have a lamasu head... err... pickles in their burgers. In fact, you can do something extraordinarily close to McDonald's menu and not get sued if you don't try to use their trademark. Cheeseburgers all over the world, as well a fries, are extraordinarily similar. Just try and put on the market something close enough to GW's models in a large output, but call them Galactic Soldiers, and you'll get sued into the ground. Right now they tolerate small business like Scibor, but I'd like to see what would happen if someone tried to make mass-market kits.

I don't see GW being good as a problem. In fact, I'm willing to pay a premium for their models because they are good. I'm actually happy when they do profits because I want them to keep doing great kits. But I see them trying to benefit from international currency difference when they sell their products as a problem, especially in a quasi-monopolistic market. That' because then I don't get more for more money (like I get more from a GK kit, quality-wise than for a Tac-sqad kit so I'm willing to pay more per game point), I just get less. And once again, that's true of Drug Companies, Electronics, Cars, etc... It's actually a debate that surface in the newspapers every once in a while here in Canada and most consumer advocate group are of the same opinion: big companies profit from currency exchange and that is not ethical. And I don't, and won't believe in that "we do it to help save jobs in your country" crap. I'd have more respect for GW if they actually told me: "sorry dude, but this way we can make more profit" than taken me for an imbecile by sugar-coating it.

Now, if you truly believe that this measure will result in expanding the hobby in Australia, New-Zealand and Canada (meaning more gamers and more models per gamer) because hobby stores will rake in the difference, I respect that. I believe that it will result in less gamers and less models per gamers in the long run. And that is not only detrimental to GW, it's detrimental to the whole hobby.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Sure, but you can take the basic composition of a burger and make it at home. GW is like McDonald on cocaine: it will sue another company because they have a lamasu head... err... pickles in their burgers. In fact, you can do something extraordinarily close to McDonald's menu and not get sued if you don't try to use their trademark. Cheeseburgers all over the world, as well a fries, are extraordinarily similar. Just try and put on the market something close enough to GW's models in a large output, but call them Galactic Soldiers, and you'll get sued into the ground. Right now they tolerate small business like Scibor, but I'd like to see what would happen if someone tried to make mass-market kits.


The thing is the 'burger and chips' idea is very old. In the same way 'elves' are very old and GW cant and wont stop other companies from making elves. However the lamasu head was such a rip off it wasnt even funny - it was like a company making a burger just like macdonalds and then having the cheek to put a picture of ronald macdonald on the front of the box!



> And once again, that's true of Drug Companies, Electronics, Cars, etc... It's actually a debate that surface in the newspapers every once in a while here in Canada and most consumer advocate group are of the same opinion: big companies profit from currency exchange and that is not ethical. And I don't, and won't believe in that "we do it to help save jobs in your country" crap. I'd have more respect for GW if they actually told me: "sorry dude, but this way we can make more profit" than taken me for an imbecile by sugar-coating it.


As you say, everyone does it - and american companies do the same in reverse to the UK (sorry I dont know any major canadian companies that export to the UK so I cant comment there). Why rail on GW for doing exactly what every other company does?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> As you say, everyone does it - and american companies do the same in reverse to the UK (sorry I dont know any major canadian companies that export to the UK so I cant comment there). Why rail on GW for doing exactly what every other company does?


Here is problem with that argument, its like saying well he killed someone and got away with it so why can't I kill someone? The fact is someone has to stand up these companies and say they shouldn't do this. I've sent an email to gw asking why and depending on there response I will be sending an email to the Conservative and NDP parties. Until something happens I will simply refuse to buy there product.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Here is problem with that argument, its like saying well he killed someone and got away with it so why can't I kill someone? The fact is someone has to stand up these companies and say they shouldn't do this. I've sent an email to gw asking why and depending on there response I will be sending an email to the Conservative and NDP parties. Until something happens I will simply refuse to buy there product.


I dont mean to be funny - but what do you honestly think they will do?

Have you seen the response to the australian thread that GW australia gave - basically it said 'very sorry, live with it' but 1000x longer.

As for writing to your MP/ whatever they are calling in your country, what the hell do you think they are going to do? GW is fully within its rights to treble the cost if they want, in fact, they are fully within their rights to charge you 10000x what they charge elsewhere, thats simply up to them. Sure you dont have to buy from them, but I really do not understand what you expect to achieve.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I dont mean to be funny - but what do you honestly think they will do?
> 
> Have you seen the response to the australian thread that GW australia gave - basically it said 'very sorry, live with it' but 1000x longer.
> 
> As for writing to your MP/ whatever they are calling in your country, what the hell do you think they are going to do? GW is fully within its rights to treble the cost if they want, in fact, they are fully within their rights to charge you 10000x what they charge elsewhere, thats simply up to them. Sure you dont have to buy from them, but I really do not understand what you expect to achieve.


Actually they are not. That is called price fixing and our government is taking aim at these companies right now.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Here is problem with that argument, its like saying well he killed someone and got away with it so why can't I kill someone? The fact is someone has to stand up these companies and say they shouldn't do this. I've sent an email to gw asking why and depending on there response I will be sending an email to the Conservative and NDP parties. Until something happens I will simply refuse to buy there product.


Products have a RRP to facilitate the sale. Back in the days of bartering an item was worth whatever someone was willing to pay for it.

If people aren't prepared to pay the RRP the Canadian stores will go out of business.

I don't understand where the ethical or consumer protection argument comes into it. The GW products are not necessities and they are quite within their rights to contractually prevent their Euro independant sellers from making huge profits in sales to other countries.

The current pricing in Australian/Canada may prove to be their downfall in those regions, but it will be through lack of sales rather than a telling off from any consumer protection group.

edit: Pricefixing is agreeing a minimum market price with your competitors. GW is not doing this.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Actually they are not. That is called price fixing and our government is taking aim at these companies right now.


Erm - no. Thats simply not the case.

A wholesaler can sell is product at any price they so wish. Therefore GW can sell its product to stores in canada for any price they wish to sell for.

There is NOTHING to stop a retailer in Canada from buying the product at retail price in the USA, paying for it to be shipped into canda and then reselling the product.

There is also nothing to stop a wholesaler granting contracts to sell only in one region - if that was illegal then the region locked DVDs would be illegal.

Price fixing is when a company sells its product to distributors and then insists on setting the retail price. GW does not do this - they sell to independant retailers who can then sell for whatever price they want to within their own region. Hell those independant retailers if they so wished could sell GWs products at a loss to them if they felt like it!

EDIT - price fixing can also be what increso said above.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

increaso said:


> Products have a RRP to facilitate the sale. Back in the days of bartering an item was worth whatever someone was willing to pay for it.
> 
> If people aren't prepared to pay the RRP the Canadian stores will go out of business.
> 
> ...


Going off by Wikipedia, pricing fixing includes but is not limited to "purposefully reduce output or sales in order to charge higher prices".


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> As you say, everyone does it - and american companies do the same in reverse to the UK (sorry I dont know any major canadian companies that export to the UK so I cant comment there). Why rail on GW for doing exactly what every other company does?


Exactly my point. I could rail against Panasonic here, but it would be out of place. I did so on other venues. International business should profit both the consumer AND the company. Not only the company. Now, GW benefits from international sales (increased sales), and so do I (lower prices). Now, GW wants me to stop benefiting from consumer sales and hopes it will keep the whole pie for themselves by having me nicely pay the Canadian upcharge? And I should say nothing, just because they can do whatever they please?

Come on, consumers everywhere should stand up a little more for themselves, no?

Phil


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Going off by Wikipedia, pricing fixing includes but is not limited to "purposefully reduce output or sales in order to charge higher prices".


The same Wikipedia paragraph starts with:

_Price fixing requires a conspiracy between sellers or buyers_

and goes on to say

_Sellers might agree to ... purposefully reduce output or sales in order to charge higher prices._

There is no conspiracy between sellers. It is one company setting a price for their product in a particular jurisdiction. You can buy another 'sellers' non-GW models for a lesser price.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Going off by Wikipedia, pricing fixing includes but is not limited to "purposefully reduce output or sales in order to charge higher prices".


Erm - where is GW doing that?

That only applies in a comodity driven price market - EG crude oil. If you decrease the volume of oil produced, but the demand stays the same, then the price increases as bidders place orders at progressively higher prices in order to get the oil above their competators.

GW does not do this - they have a fixed price system and thats the price that is paid - therefore their price is not fixed to the volume that they produce and thus this has no relavence to this discussion.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Come on, consumers everywhere should stand up a little more for themselves, no?
> 
> Phil


And they can do that - they vote with their wallets - dont like it, dont buy it.

Problem is consumers keep buying, so companies keep charging.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Hell those independant retailers if they so wished could sell GWs products at a loss to them if they felt like it!
> 
> EDIT - price fixing can also be what increso said above.


Sell products at lose might fall under Predatory pricing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Sell products at lose might fall under Predatory pricing.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing


And that again has nothing to do with GW...

did you not read what I said - I said that an independant retailer could do that if they wanted.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Erm - where is GW doing that?
> 
> That only applies in a comodity driven price market - EG crude oil. If you decrease the volume of oil produced, but the demand stays the same, then the price increases as bidders place orders at progressively higher prices in order to get the oil above their competators.
> 
> GW does not do this - they have a fixed price system and thats the price that is paid - therefore their price is not fixed to the volume that they produce and thus this has no relavence to this discussion.


"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a *product, service, or* commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand."

So it is not limited to commodity.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> "Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a *product, service, or* commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand."
> 
> So it is not limited to commodity.


GW is an individual company - they CANNOT be on the same side as themselves!

Seriously, please stop it with the wiki quotes, you dont actually understand what you are quoting.

I used oil comodity as an example - The word commodity can be applied to any product - hell prostitutes are a 'comodity', even thought they offer a service - it could equally be applied to taxi fares (if all the taxis refused to work and thus drove up the prices of fares as there were less of them on the road.) or to anything else that is driven by the volume of the product/service being the deciding factor of the price.

But I shall repeat - GW cannot price fix ON ITS OWN - it is allowed to set its own prices at whatever level it wants to.

GW could price fix with independant retailers (For its own products) by insisting on a price at which they sell (which it doesnt do) or with its competators (like PP or any other indpenedant model maker) and agree to charge the same prices for similar box sets - which they also dont do.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> "Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a *product, service, or* commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand."
> 
> So it is not limited to commodity.


Correct, but it doesn't move the argument along any.

Two companies agree to produce only x numbers of a product and they both agree to charge no less than y per item.

Both companies save on all the costs associated with making and getting the product to store, but make the same profit as they would have if they mass produced.

The illegal part is the agreement between the two companies to do this.

It is nothing like what GW do.

Edit: Maidel beat me to it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i think GW are guilty of anti competitive practice by changing its terms and conditions to prevent sale in a free market, but it would be up to the Indies in the EU to take them on over it, which could be an issue in itself.

but they are not in anyway price fixing


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> i think GW are guilty of anti competitive practice by changing its terms and conditions to prevent sale in a free market, but it would be up to the Indies in the EU to take them on over it, which could be an issue in itself.


do you think its the changing of the terms and conditions that makes it illegal, or the fact that they prevent them from selling outside of their territory?

The thing is that many things are limited to individual areas - EG - I cant buy songs from the american itunes despite the fact it would actually be cheaper for me to do so. I cant buy audio books from the american audible website despite the fact it would be cheaper AND they have a wider range of books. Add to that the whole region locked DVD players and computer consols.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Its an area of product law that I am not 100% up on, but Id be interrested to know why you think what GW is doing is potentially breaking the law, because I cant see how its different.




> but they are not in anyway price fixing


Again you are the voice of reason


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## Whamhammer (Jan 19, 2009)

What i was saying before about their new terms and conditions being bullshit and that its proof with their 3 stores around the country. There are basically no other model stores besides GW i can only think of one in my city and i live in the biggest city, its bs because there just stopping us from buying online so that we are forced to pay their prices, which trust me if all you Brits and Americans had to pay you would be boycotting GW, everything is at least double some times triple what you guys pay and now that we gotta go to Gw to get our models were gonna get ripped off, the prices will never go down and there constantly go up, I'm talking like 90 dollars for a box of 20 skaven. They won't be opening any new stores i can guarantee it, when ever they make a new Gw they close another one down. There's no where to buy warhammer besides GW and one other model store one, one of the Gws is literally and hour drive away as well.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel is quite right. We cannot complain that GW works in an illegal manner. We can, though, complain that they act unethically by restricting international commerce to make more profit in a way that's detrimental to costumers by rising prices without any relation to value or even the local market.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Maidel is quite right. We cannot complain that GW works in an illegal manner. We can, though, complain that they act unethically by restricting international commerce to make more profit in a way that's detrimental to costumers by rising prices without any relation to value or even the local market.
> 
> Phil


I'd question if it was even unethical really. Ethics are dictated by the society as a whole, ethics do not have a fixed value (eg now it is considered unethical to do many things which years ago were considered quite normal and proper).

Therefore if we agree that GW is not doing anything different to other international companies (see my post above for a few examples of other practices which restrict trade across regions) then we either have to agree that GW is acting ethically, or that the entire society is acting unethically.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

I have a split view on this:

1. Of course it's GW's business and property, and to some extent they have the right to control their product and distribution. Inflation is higher than a lot of people realize in many parts of the world, and it's certainly effecting GW and its supply chain. 

2. This was an utterly boneheaded move, and it doesn't really fix the problem. What they should have done is raise their wholesale prices and let the secondary market sort itself out. Every boxed set or blister rolled off a GW assembly line, whether it gets sold in London, Chicago, or Sydney. They need to make their money on that first sale and not try to control every sale for the life of the models.

3. #2 would have addressed the real problem, which is that GW brick and mortar stores are very hard pressed to make money in an environment where people can easily order GW products online. GW is clinging to a dying business model by expecting people to drop by their Hobby Center once a month, drop $100, and chat it up with the store staff about what's coming out next. It's not going to happen, no matter how many people they threaten or sue. 

4. Ultimately they're going to lose anyways. GW can't enforce product sales by individuals, so it's just going to drive the secondary market underground. Hobby shop owner opens up a personal eBay account and keeps right on selling to people. 

"Reasonable" or "legal", I suppose so. Good business? No way. This isn't a good sign for the future of GW. I'd recommend stocking up now, since prices for used models are going to rise right along with the new. Make sure to indicate you'll ship Down Under on your listings if you're selling too.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I'd question if it was even unethical really. Ethics are dictated by the society as a whole, ethics do not have a fixed value (eg now it is considered unethical to do many things which years ago were considered quite normal and proper).
> 
> Therefore if we agree that GW is not doing anything different to other international companies (see my post above for a few examples of other practices which restrict trade across regions) then we either have to agree that GW is acting ethically, or that the entire society is acting unethically.


Actually, almost all consumer advocacy group I know say it's unethical to keep a price difference between the US and Canada even though the dollar has reached parity. This difference was, say 25% 8 years ago (when the CDN$ was worth 30% less than the US$). Now that we've reached parity, the price difference is the same. Yet, average cost of life and average income haven't changed relatively. So, imported good should cost less to Canadians, the downside being that it's now more difficult for our industries to sell our products abroad. But they don't, and that's because foreign companies are putting that difference in their pockets. 

Now, at least most companies don't stop independent seller from selling abroad. I bought my Home theater projector from the US at _less than the cost_ of that same projector in an independent retailer here. Sad for that retailer, but the "service" he offered me wasn't worth the difference in price. 

As for drug companies, at least drug prices are regulated by the government and major insurance companies (big powerful multinationals themselves)and as such they are kept in check.

But GW takes it a step further by trying to stop international commerce. 

Now, Ethics are dictated by society as a whole, but the companies are not a majority of society and as such can't dictate ethics.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Now, Ethics are dictated by society as a whole, but the companies are not a majority of society and as such can't dictate ethics.
> 
> Phil


Ok, I am only basing this on other peoples comments, I dont live in canada, nor do I have particularly close ties with my cousins over there (they are weird...)

However on this thread and many others people keep saying 'everyone does it' when refering to companies outside of canada (and australia and new zealand) having increased prices despite the fact it goes way above the exchange rate and/or shipping.

Now feel free to disagree with that bit ^^ because its the bit I am relying on other people for, but if that is the case and GW is doing nothing that all the other international companies are also doing - then either they are ALL unethical, or they are not unethical. GW on their own cannot be unethical if what they are doing is 'normal practice'.

While companies do not comprise the whole of society if they 'all' conduct business in this fashion then I would say it is impossible for their actions to be 'unethical' because you cannot have an entire society (where I say society there read 'international companies) that are all acting unethically because that then changes the defintion of ethics because if everyone is doing it, it cant be unethical.

It can however be grossly unfair from your point of view, but not unethical.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Three cheers for Ohiocat110! You hit it on the head.

I've been reading for 11 pages waiting for somebody to say this.



ohiocat110 said:


> 2. This was an utterly boneheaded move, and it doesn't really fix the problem. What they should have done is raise their wholesale prices and let the secondary market sort itself out. Every boxed set or blister rolled off a GW assembly line, whether it gets sold in London, Chicago, or Sydney. They need to make their money on that first sale and not try to control every sale for the life of the models.


I worked for a USA FLGS until 2001. At that time the wholesale margin was pretty slim for a retailer. We got a certain additional discount based I believe on volume and the amount of store space dedicated to games-workshop product, but even so our discount from RRP to determine our wholesale price was only 30-35%. Which is pretty slim. I know it had been higher years before, and since I've stopped into the shop, it has gone down further.

Raising wholesale prices won't necessarily balance out the disparity between online retailers and brick and mortar stores. It won't change their relative overhead. BUT it will change the minimum profit GW makes from each unit sold, there-by increasing their fiscal stability. 

Gw might be able to raise the price they sell to online retailers, to set the price barrier equally. Though that would likely cause all sorts of other problems. And very likely the online sector of sales would drop dramatically. (Though with the reduction to available markets online retailers can ship to that may happen anyway.)

GW ultimately created this problem for themselves, as has been pointed out. When I started playing GW games 20 or so years ago, there wasn't any other outlet for GW models, and certainly none at a discount. The only place to mail order them was from GW itself. And otherwise it was GW or a FLGS.

When the presence of online retailers expanded and GW sold to them and simultaneously kept their retail stores, they started on a road to undercutting their own store presence. At the time it probably seemed a small matter, but as the online market has grown so extensively - GW must be looking for ways to trim the competition to their retail stores.

The problem for them is even greater in the Australian and New Zealand markets, where the prices their stores charge are a massive dis-incentive for players to buy there; and the inverse corollary is the incentive to buy online, overseas, for much lower prices, and with a higher purchasing power. And of course with the increased power of the AU dollar, maintaining high retail prices is even more attractive for GW.

So what's a retail giant in a niche market to do? How do they keep customers and continue to make a profit? Because ultimately, savvy sellers and buyers will find ways to circumvent GW's international restrictions, until such time as GW sets the rules up in such a way that consumers WANT to buy through the channels GW establishes.

They have a few choices.


*Cut their brick and mortar stores almost completely.* 
They cost a lot, but this would leave a market/visibility vacuum. If they do this then they should almost certainly reinvest some of their former overhead expenditure into organizing grass-roots community. Helping to build online communities (like this one!) drive player involvement. Sponsor a greater variety of events - likely smaller ones partnering with regional clubs and groups. If instead of a store GW head regional Reps who worked with games shops and clubs to build player interest and hobby visibility, then suddenly GW could get the base more focused and the stores really working _for_ them. This would likely service the player base well.


*Freeze out the secondary retailers completely*. 
If they clamp back down and refuse to sell to online retailers or other stores who may mark product down, then GW can ensure that most of the product that goes out sells at the RRP. Making up the shortfall in wholesale would likely be very difficult. This would also cut GW's overall product availability and visibility. I'm fairly certain there would be an outcry of Biblical proportions, with much gnashing of teeth - from retailers and customers.


*Increase the wholesale price.* 
Increasing the base cost increases the minimum retailers can sell units for. There is a minimum they MUST add to make sales and stocking worthwhile. If the wholesale total is high enough GW can ensure positive revenue. Also GW stores won't be burdened with this difference, their bottom line doesn't change. If fact, it is possible in this scenario that GW could charge less at its stores than independent retailers could - driving more business to their stores. Online retailers would likely still be able to mark things down, but not as much and still make a profit. Customers at the online retailers would largely benefit from the convenience of choice and shipping. Retailers would like not appreciate this, and many might cease to carry GW stock. For players it would depend on how the final prices worked out. In general it would likely cause a problem, but not a terrible one.

It is likely that we are seeing a combination of #2 and #3 being played out now.

Though I think scenario #1 and #3 together are the most likely to succeed. Building community with hands on investment, while cutting costs, and moderately raising prices (which GW do yearly anyway) would ensure the larges base of support with the most avenues to purchase at prices that evenly benefit GW.


Cheers,
Kreuger

p.s. - A salute to Maidel, Boreas, and BitsandKits for solid discourse without invective or hyperbole!


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maidel said:


> do you think its the changing of the terms and conditions that makes it illegal, or the fact that they prevent them from selling outside of their territory?
> 
> The thing is that many things are limited to individual areas - EG - I cant buy songs from the american itunes despite the fact it would actually be cheaper for me to do so. I cant buy audio books from the american audible website despite the fact it would be cheaper AND they have a wider range of books. Add to that the whole region locked DVD players and computer consols.
> 
> ...


But just because Itunes say you cant does not mean that its right for them to do it, besides GW are not saying that customers down under cant buy from indies they are saying to the UK indies you cant sell to people down under or other territories , which in corporate law would likely be completely different, i dont know the exact ins and outs but i think that there is a link between this and the recent tesco case were they(tesco) were told they couldnt sell cheap imported levis(levi were available for considerably less than the trade price outside the EU so Tesco were buying them up and importing them to sell instores for less than the ridiculas price from other uk outlets) , i think GW have seen that case as a green light to restrict indies from selling outside of the EU, but i still think that this would be classed as uncompetitive practice but as with anything it would require someone to challenge them and that requires money and time.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> p.s. - A salute to Maidel, Boreas, and BitsandKits for solid discourse without invective or hyperbole!


I had to look invective up... its quite rare I have to do that now :biggrin:

I will read and respond to the rest of it later - Im supposed to be writing up some survey reports at the moment...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> i dont know the exact ins and outs but i think that there is a link between this and the recent tesco case were they(tesco) were told they couldnt sell cheap imported levis(levi were available for considerably less than the trade price outside the EU so Tesco were buying them up and importing them to sell instores for less than the ridiculas price from other uk outlets) , i.


Im pretty certain that tescos lost that battle - I used that example earlier in one of the threads....


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Im pretty certain that tescos lost that battle - I used that example earlier in one of the threads....


exactly, they lost (which was a shock to be honest) which is why i think GW have seen it as a green light to bully indies, because Levi were basically given license to dictate who and how and what can be charged for there goods, which for the life of me i cant understand the judge ruling in favour of Levi on that one as its pretty much fuck you to the consumer, but in the "fashion industry" i can see the reasoning in some way as a brand is everything, the clothes can be shit and aweful looking but people will still buy them for the label , but toy manufacture is a different ball game so im not certain GW are on solid ground and i think wayland and the other big online retailers should "talk" to those involved and consult with legal people about the "legality" of the change to the conditions all the same.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> exactly, they lost (which was a shock to be honest) which is why i think GW have seen it as a green light to bully indies, because Levi were basically given license to dictate who and how and what can be charged for there goods, which for the life of me i cant understand the judge ruling in favour of Levi on that one as its pretty much fuck you to the consumer, but in the "fashion industry" i can see the reasoning in some way as a brand is everything, the clothes can be shit and aweful looking but people will still buy them for the label , but toy manufacture is a different ball game so im not certain GW are on solid ground and i think wayland and the other big online retailers should "talk" to those involved and consult with legal people about the "legality" of the change to the conditions all the same.


Oh good, glad we are both on the same page here!

I dont see how the different sectors would actually affect the outcome of that case. British law is all based on 'case law' so unless the goverment legislate a specific item of law the courts will simply base their decisions of previous decisions.

Levi won that case (in my understanding) because Tescos were not a retailer that they had allowed to sell their products in the UK and thus had broken some trade agreement. The same sort of trade agreement that Apple signed with O2 for years to let them be the sole supplier of the Iphone (I know that has now expired).

Therefore if you look at the case history GW are doing nothing wrong - they are allowing only specific retailers in specific areas to sell their products and wont allow people to sell their products internationally.

I suppose there is absolutely nothing to stop any of the retaillers in UK applying for a licence to sell the products in a different country, but I think GW stipulate that they have to have a physical shop in that region in order to do so.

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that GW have case law on their side and there is nothing that they are doing that is illegal in the UK and thus will 'carry on regardless'.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Basically, it all boils down to the fact that GW have case law on their side and there is nothing that they are doing that is illegal in the UK and thus will 'carry on regardless'.


On that point, I'm completely with you. Although I still hope that pressure from sellers like Wayland mught have them reconsider.

And although I never download any material from GW that I don't already buy (I consider having a printed copy of my bought material ok since it can help me keep my codice intact), I'll keep trying to buy from out of the country legal retailers. I consider that whether I buy from Wayland or my local GW store, GW still gets it's profit. But I think this all boils down to personnal views on the ethics of business. 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> And although I never download any material from GW that I don't already buy (I consider having a printed copy of my bought material ok since it can help me keep my codice intact), I'll keep trying to buy from out of the country legal retailers. I consider that whether I buy from Wayland or my local GW store, GW still gets it's profit. But I think this all boils down to personnal views on the ethics of business.
> 
> Phil


The way they look at it, GW central gets your money if you buy from an independant, but GW canada/ north america doesnt get squat and in their words 'wont get investment' - (think tornaments).

But, as far as you are concerned carry on, I personally will be buying from wherever i can get cheapest, be it ebay or an independant.


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## Kontempt (Dec 1, 2009)

It's hard to continue to justify spending money at GW stores here when we have a price hike every 3 or 4 months. It was only a year and a half ago, maybe two that you could buy Terminators for $55, now they are $80. With the cost of living continually increasing it makes it hard to afford the hobby unless you buy online. I'm not exactly poor, but buying new models has now become a bit of a luxury. Also they don't exactly run a lot of tounaments and when you talk to the guys at the store about your painting techniques, they sort of sneer and take a condescending tone. Many of my models actually look better than theirs do! So for me I will buy from wherever I can at a cheaper price just to spite the dicks at the _Friendly_ Local Game Store.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> And they can do that - they vote with their wallets - dont like it, dont buy it.
> 
> Problem is consumers keep buying, so companies keep charging.


I wrote a long-winded post about a whole heap of trivial junk that agreed and elaborated on your point. Decided to re-write it as bulletpoints:

- GW are greedy: 'nuff said. They may not be the baby-eating bastards we make them out to be, but they are very much in the business of wringing as much money out of us as they can.

- Australian/NZ/Canadian consumers are 'voting with their wallet' by buying overseas. Rather than bringing parity to the pricing (it could still be 25% more expensive and people would buy it out of convenience) GW tries to stop people voting with their wallets. This is a major dick move on GW's part, regardless of how they or we spin it.

- The consumer base are idiots: GW are making enough money from brick-and-mortar stores that they think putting their product availability back into the era of the 1920's (i.e. only available on a national level) is a way to make money. Enough people will continue to buy from FLGS to make that viable. Or at least GW hopes so.

- GW are also idiots: If the plan laid out in the previous bullet doesn't work, GW will trim the fat in that region by laying off staff and closing stores, and blame the player base for the slump in sales saying, "Well it's your own fault that there aren't any stores in your country since you didn't buy enough of our products", rather than saying "Hey, maybe people would buy more if this stuff was cheaper?" Take a note from the Chinese, sell product at a lower price, but much more of it, and reap higher profits.

I'm still not entirely sure what we as players can do, either the company will go out of business and we're up shit creek, or their prices continue to rise, and we're _still_ up shit creek.

Also, this:


Kontempt said:


> Also they don't exactly run a lot of tounaments and when you talk to the guys at the store about your painting techniques, they sort of sneer and take a condescending tone. Many of my models actually look better than theirs do! So for me I will buy from wherever I can at a cheaper price just to spite the dicks at the _Friendly_ Local Game Store.


Fellow Australian and have noticed a distinct lack of friendly from the store staff; I had the store manager sneer at me and let loose a wave of sarcasm when I shared some DE rumours with him, but I get the feeling they hate GW as much as we do. Probably underpaid like a motherfucker.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

> - GW are also idiots: If the plan laid out in the previous bullet doesn't work, GW will trim the fat in that region by laying off staff and closing stores, and blame the player base for the slump in sales saying, "Well it's your own fault that there aren't any stores in your country since you didn't buy enough of our products", rather than saying "Hey, maybe people would buy more if this stuff was cheaper?" Take a note from the Chinese, sell product at a lower price, but much more of it, and reap higher profits.


There is a flaw in that. Consider this:

GW has worked out that they can on average sell their products for £10 and make £5 profit (made up numbers just for example). Now consider at that price they sell 100 units they make £500 profit.

Now consider your suggestion. Let's drop the price by 25%. it's now sold for £7.50 and they make £2.50 profit. With that 25% drop in price they now need to sell 200 units before they equal the profit they made from selling 100 units.

That's the reality of the situation, if they can make the same (or more) money from selling less of the product at a higher price, they will. If you could earn more money for working less but charging more, wouldn't you do it?


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

The 'flaw' you pointed out entirely relies on the customers buying those 100 units in the first place. I'm sure if GW had a price drop (or heck, even just a sale) they'd easily double their sales figures.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> The 'flaw' you pointed out entirely relies on the customers buying those 100 units in the first place. I'm sure if GW had a price drop (or heck, even just a sale) they'd easily double their sales figures.


Are you sure?

How much of a price drop are you thinking about? 5%? 10%, 50%?

Dont forget that any price drop is directly affecting profit and nothing else. So as you can see with my example above, a 25% drop in price is in actual fact a 50% drop in profits (obviously I dont know GWs profit margin per item).

And yes, you are right it does rely on customers buying those units - but, lets be frank, we all do buy stuff, thus, we perpetuate the price increases.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Khargoth said:


> The 'flaw' you pointed out entirely relies on the customers buying those 100 units in the first place. I'm sure if GW had a price drop (or heck, even just a sale) they'd easily double their sales figures.


why would GW have a sale ? which items currently on the shelf of a GW store is about to go out of season or be replaced by a more fashionable model or more advanced model?(making the old model obsolete), the only real items that can go obsolete are rule books which you already own or will be useless to you once they are replaced by a new edition(unless your retro gaming).

Sales are generally not for making "profit" they are for generating "cash" or clearing stock you cant sell, most shops that have sales are doing it to make space for new stock or to free up invested money so it can be reinvested in stock that is more likely to generate profit. 

Im not saying GW couldnt be cheaper, but the reality is not as simple as "they should cut prices and sell more" they dont need to , they have zero competition, no body else produces warhammer/40k products so they dont have to compete with anyone, they only need to keep the company afloat and produce niche products to sell to a small number of people scattered all over the world in a business model that defies complete logic and should not be possible, but some how it works and has worked for over 30 years and GW see no reason why it cant carry on working aslong as they keep a tight hold of the reigns even when it annoys the hell out of its customers.
GWs focus is and always has been to get people through the doors of a store to buy stuff and see the cabinets and maybe play a game or two, and then go home ,paint ,model and game in a basement/bedroom/garage etc with friends or at a club and rinse and repeat!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

And just to add to that, those 'people' do not have to be the same 'people' fir GWs business model to work. What I mean is that they don't care about long term custom, if every person who came in the store was a new customer who bought a rule book, some paints and a battalion box set then they would be happy.

People who keep comming back buying small amounts are just a bonus for them.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> And yes, you are right it does rely on customers buying those units - but, lets be frank, we all do buy stuff, thus, we perpetuate the price increases.


Yep, see the previous bullet point 'the consumer base are idiots'.

I personally haven't really bought anything in years, a Wraith here, Sentinel there, but I've already given GW close to a grand or two in the past, before all that price increase malarky. Those Finecast minis and new 'crons are damn tempting though. But it really comes down to how much people are willing to part with for their plastic crack. Especially when I picked up _four_ Dragon PaK-40 guns, with six crew apiece, for a grand total of sixty bucks. And the minis weren't far behind GW for quality.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> Yep, see the previous bullet point 'the consumer base are idiots'..


 
'people' are always idiots.

My favourite quote at the moment:



> A person is smart; people are dumb panicky dangerous animals and you know it.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

_Gods_, I love that movie. (Though I think the quote begins "_The_ person...")

I think Khargoth's most important point didn't come with a bullet, however: we, as GW's customers, are essentially boned. Neither boycotting nor continuing to purchase the product is actually conducive the the outcome we want to achieve (i.e. lower prices, or at least international price parity). Our only out is to remove ourselves from the entire 'GW customer' subset of the populace and simply decide not to give a fuck whether or not they go under. 

Of course, some of us have tried that (repeatedly, in my case). Never quite seems to stick, though. The term 'plastic crack' caught on for a reason.

So to reiterate: we're screwed. Rant if it makes you feel better; ditto for jumping to GW's defense. Or hell, light your minis on fire - I can imagine there might be a certain amount of catharsis to be had there, though I suspect it'd be swiftly replaced by regret in most cases. Just don't expect anything to actually, y'know, _change_.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Dude, you,re Canadian. So one word: survival. Buy wath you can under GW's radar. Rant a lot on board hoping to annoy a bit. Every once in a while, because you're in the area of that GW Store that's in a 7 hours dive radius, go in annoy the clerk (gently, it's not his fault).

I don't think thing will change, but I'll keep using what I've got. I'll keep being unhappy with GW. I'll keep playing with my friends outside of GW stores or FLGS.

And you know what? In the long run, screw GW. Either they fail or they wont, but one thing is sure, I won't play with fraking "plastique bonhommes" for the rest of my life. In the meanwhile, I wont let nerdrage corrupt my gaming experience.

Phil


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Isn't that... kind of what I said?

Or were you addressing some other Canadian?


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> _Gods_
> e. Or hell, light your minis on fire - I can imagine there might be a certain amount of catharsis to be had there, though I suspect it'd be swiftly replaced by regret in most cases. Just don't expect anything to actually, y'know, _change_.


The Fumes would you kill you im pretty sure and the fire would be fast burning and un-enjoyable....just like the new prices! :shout:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> Isn't that... kind of what I said?
> 
> Or were you addressing some other Canadian?


Yep, that's what you said... Just a wee bit of misplaced patriotism combined with late hour (22h40 is late when you have kids that wake up a 6h00!). :biggrin:

Phil


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

well the price has not gone up yet down here even though they say it should be 1st of june.

l will say its had an effect already has 10 people from are group has left. 

l also work near the Melbourne store and it now seems to be empty for the last 2 weeks when fine cast was announced.

Edit: l mean platisc guys have not gone up yet, the finecast guys are all up by 20% compare to the old metal guys.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> why would GW have a sale ? which items currently on the shelf of a GW store is about to go out of season or be replaced by a more fashionable model or more advanced model?(making the old model obsolete),
> 
> 
> Answer - the metal models that are now going 'finecast'.
> ...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> Answer - the metal models that are now going 'finecast'.
> 
> Also, sales can stimulate interest in other things - i.e. as a non-warhammer player, but a 40k player, if the warhammer rule book was to have 50% off I may buy it to see what the fuss is about, like it, then buy warhammer stuff.


Seriously... think about that for a second.

They have brought out a new range of the SAME models, which are slightly higher detailed. If they had a sale of the metal models first all they would do was kill the sales of finecast as people bought up the models that they wanted in metal first.

They are much better off recalling all those blisters, melting them down and selling off the peuter.

As for sales drawing new people in, well unless you have a sale on the ENTIRE range, it simply isnt going to attract any new people.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

slaaneshy said:


> bitsandkits said:
> 
> 
> > why would GW have a sale ? which items currently on the shelf of a GW store is about to go out of season or be replaced by a more fashionable model or more advanced model?(making the old model obsolete),
> ...


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Oh while I'm on:

I'm still bitching about GWs changes to shaft Australian and New Zealand players, raise their prices and just generally be wankers.

It's time to go make your cat sandwich Maidel. I expect a video within the hour. 



PS: I hear mayo goes well with cat.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Oh while I'm on:
> 
> I'm still bitching about GWs changes to shaft Australian and New Zealand players, raise their prices and just generally be wankers.
> 
> ...


 
Its not even close to a month after I said that - more like 10 days. :laugh:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel's right. No matter how you turn it, GW has ZERO incentive to help you save money. They basically own the only large scale 28-32mm sci-fi/fantasy wargame. And they know that most gamers will buy the plast-crack no matter what. For every gamer I know that complains about prices (like me), there are 10 gamers with more stuff on the sprue that they can actually paint in a years (like...me!).

And gamers are curious people that get hooked easily. They love to try new stuff, new codice, new units. They don't need for that product to be "on sale". 

Now, I still think that GW is going the wrong way with brick-and-mortar shops. I still think that international currencies should help gamers with higher-currency buy cheaper stuff from abroad, even though most companies manage otherwise. But one thing is sure: GW has shown with the various letters (especially that "generic answer") that it doesn't care. 

The one think that's positive in that situation is that you, in turn, don't have to care about GW. While I don't condone illegal stuff (codex download, recasts, etc), you can have no qualms about fniding any way you can to buy from a legit seller outside Oz, NZ, Canada or other.

Phil


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Its not even close to a month after I said that - more like 10 days. :laugh:


Lets meet in the middle and call it 20. Start warming up your toasty maker.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Lets meet in the middle and call it 20. Start warming up your toasty maker.


Sorry - your post was FAR to humorous to count as a moan.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

My suggestion behind a sale was because most people can't walk past a bargain, especially in the case of a when-hell-freezes-over scenario like a GW sale. 10-15% off, maybe 25% on selected items, and a lot of people would buy stuff that they'd otherwise walk past. GW knows we all need our plastic crack, so why not give us an incentive to buy _lots_ of it?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> My suggestion behind a sale was because most people can't walk past a bargain, especially in the case of a when-hell-freezes-over scenario like a GW sale. 10-15% off, maybe 25% on selected items, and a lot of people would buy stuff that they'd otherwise walk past. GW knows we all need our plastic crack, so why not give us an incentive to buy _lots_ of it?


Two reasons:

1) Where their incentive - all they have to do is announce something new and shiney and BOOOMB sales go up. (EG new edition, fine cast etc)

2) If people bought stuff at a 25% discount from GW, chances are 90% of it would be on ebay after the sale finished at 10% under GW retail price. Therefore GW loses twice, once because it sold it at 25% less and twice because the person then made a 15% profit off them that GW dont see any of.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Maidel said:


> If people bought stuff at a 25% discount from GW, chances are 90% of it would be on ebay after the sale finished at 10% under GW retail price. Therefore GW loses twice, once because it sold it at 25% less and twice because the person then made a 15% profit off them that GW dont see any of.


Yeah, that occurred to me. So we're back to square 1. If GW products weren't so expensive and they weren't such dicks about their pricing, it wouldn't be such a "Holy shit!" situation to see something at 10% below retail on Ebay. And a sale wouldn't be necessary because less people would have issue with their prices and would happily buy more of their products.

So the logical strategy is to lower prices and have an advertising blitz to get more people into the hobby and buying their products. But that's not really a smart bet for GW because wargaming is uncool, chainsaw axes or not *madly runs for cover*


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Khargoth said:


> Yeah, that occurred to me. So we're back to square 1. If GW products weren't so expensive and they weren't such dicks about their pricing, it wouldn't be such a "Holy shit!" situation to see something at 10% below retail on Ebay. And a sale wouldn't be necessary because less people would have issue with their prices and would happily buy more of their products.
> 
> So the logical strategy is to lower prices and have an advertising blitz to get more people into the hobby and buying their products. But that's not really a smart bet for GW because wargaming is uncool, chainsaw axes or not *madly runs for cover*


The thing is, GWs prices arent 'high'.

If GWs prices were high then you would see them posting £50+million profits, not £10 million after massive restructuring and cost cutting.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

The main problem that even I find hard to get to grips with is that GW's product does not require volume of sales to make a profit.

If I strech my mind back several years to my GCSE economics, there are broadly two types of product and pricing has a dramatic effect on profit.

A company sells 10 packs of biscuits at 33p and makes a good profit. It it were to raise the price by 1p sales drop to 1 packet and the company is in trouble. If it lowers the price by 1p and sells 100 packets, profit per pack is down by the total gross profit is higher.

On the flip side a car maker sells 10 cars £10,000. If it lowers the price it sells more but does not make enough profit per unit and goes bust. It it raises the price and it sells one car but makes more profit from this than selling 10 cars.

GW falls into the luxury car maker bracket. Lowering price will not see more profit although more units will be sold. Raising price may well see less sales but higher profits. As it is a niche market, like luxury cars, they have to follow the trend for that particular Supply and Demand curve. 

If they invested a hefty amount of money on T.V. comercials and lowered unit prices would it see stores getting higher foot fall to justify the extremely large amount of money? GW probably can not take that sort of finacail risk. 

I sympathise with the problems in Australia as my sister in law is living over there at the moment and the price of living is extremely high. She still buys stuff online in the UK and gets it delivered out there as it is cheaper than buying in OZ. Sadly she will be coming back this August, not like the good old days when someone was sent to Australia. And no she does not buy GW products before anyone asks.

I don't like price rises regardless although the current ones seem out of line with UK inflation and other increases. I understand it from a buisness point of veiw,. but it does not cushion the blow.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

GW prices are high. High isn't defined by how much profit you turn in. I could own a jewelry store and not make much profit. "High" prices are defined by what people are willing to pay and comparison with similar items or items of a similar category.

A GW army runs about 400-600$. A Warmachine/Hordes army runs 200-250$. If one considers them of similar enjoyment (I don't), the GW is more expensive than Warmachine/Hordes.

But 400-600$ can also buy 4-8 great board games (not Monopoly, more Horus Heresy or Settlers of Catan), that both you and 1-8 of you friends can enjoy. No need for another 400-600$ army, paint, brushes, boards. Plus they store easily.

Also, 400-600$ buys a lots of M:TG cards. AD&D or other RPG books. Or a gaming console and a few used games. OR 15-20 DVD box set....

There is a reason why there are a lot more non-GW gamers out there than WFB/WH40k players. One reason is the sheer work you have to put in just to built (or even paint, which unfortunately too few players do!) your minis. But when I speak to many of my "geek" friends about GW games, they usually cringe because of the price. 

Now, I'm not saying GW should reduce prices across the board. I think they produce a luxury item (in that small world or Wargaming) that has good value (quality of the models, number of bits, etc). But I think that they might want to take care at not overreaching because the community could eventually move away faster, or the entry price might become to high for new players. After all, I'm not sure how far parent will be willing to go to buy miniatures. If GW breaks the 700$-800$ barrier for a 1500pts army, they just won't be able to compete with a new X-Box or a PS3. 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Lash Machine said:


> GW falls into the luxury car maker bracket. Lowering price will not see more profit although more units will be sold. Raising price may well see less sales but higher profits. As it is a niche market, like luxury cars, they have to follow the trend for that particular Supply and Demand curve.


 
:goodpost:Someone has seen the light!!!




boreas said:


> There is a reason why there are a lot more non-GW gamers out there than WFB/WH40k players.


Its a regional thing - that statement would make no sense in england.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Its a regional thing - that statement would make no sense in england.


Are you sure there are more GW-games players than AD&D, M:TG and boardgames (high-end, like FFGs or Settler, etc) in England? If so, that really is a regional thing.

But even if that is the case, GW's cannot think only by UK paradigms all over the world. I could insert some crass joke about English Imperialism here, but the truth is GW will fail outside of UK if it keeps rising the prices (or doesn't adapt to regional pricing or values and game style). Willing or not, NA and Australia represent more revenue than the UK (2009-2010 GW financial report p. 37) and possibly the best market for expansion (especially NA, with more than 5 times the UK population in the US and Canada). 

By antagonizing those markets (via the blockage of international sales), they rake in more immediate profit. But in the long run, I'm not sure they're providing good growth.

GW cannot be compared to luxury cars. Luxury car have one thing that GW won't ever have. They are a social symbol. Very rich people will keep paying more for a Porsche, because they can drive it to work and brag about it. More, it become a status symbol that might have a career/income value if you're a professional. They are hardly replaceable by a equivalent, except maybe a luxury boat. 

GW is a niche toy with no social value. No big-shot lawyer brags about his newly bought GK army at work. It's mainly a luxury past-time that has value inside a small circle of gamers, which circle might stop increasing (cynic will tell you that the roughly flat sales since 2004 show it has stopped increasing). But that past-time has a lot of equivalent past-time that gamers can easily switch to. Board-games, video games, CCG, RPG. HEck, even LARPS 

Of course, Luxury vehicles compete. One could buy a Porsche or buy a Lotus. That is the reason even though they are "high-priced" they don't increase prices as widely as GW has done in the last few years. In fact, the rise of high-end non-"symbol" cars (like the lexus) has forced Porsche to have low-end models like the boxter. Lower prices, more sales. GW should heed that warning.


Phil


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

Maidel said:


> The thing is, GWs prices arent 'high'.
> 
> If GWs prices were high then you would see them posting £50+million profits, not £10 million after massive restructuring and cost cutting.


That doesn't mean their prices aren't high, that means their high prices are strangling the life out of their business. If I tried to sell you a candy bar for $50 my profit would be zero, _because_ of the high price.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Are you sure there are more GW-games players than AD&D, M:TG and boardgames (high-end, like FFGs or Settler, etc) in England? If so, that really is a regional thing.


Without a shadow of doubt there are more people in England that play GW games than any of those listed.

Im not sure about all of them combined, but I wouldnt be surpised if that was the case.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

AlexHolker said:


> That doesn't mean their prices aren't high, that means their high prices are strangling the life out of their business. If I tried to sell you a candy bar for $50 my profit would be zero, _because_ of the high price.


Read above (think it was lash machine) - he explains that perfectly.

They are not only just in profit because of the prices, they are only just out of debt because of their prices.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

boreas said:


> Are you sure there are more GW-games players than AD&D, M:TG and boardgames (high-end, like FFGs or Settler, etc) in England? If so, that really is a regional thing.


Firstly, I think Maidel has it right. I know quite a few people who play GW games and we have not all met via tabletop gaming. I don't know anyone that plays any of the others.



> But even if that is the case, GW's cannot think only by UK paradigms all over the world. I could insert some crass joke about English Imperialism here, but the truth is GW will fail outside of UK if it keeps rising the prices (or doesn't adapt to regional pricing or values and game style). Willing or not, NA and Australia represent more revenue than the UK (2009-2010 GW financial report p. 37) and possibly the best market for expansion (especially NA, with more than 5 times the UK population in the US and Canada).
> 
> By antagonizing those markets (via the blockage of international sales), they rake in more immediate profit. But in the long run, I'm not sure they're providing good growth.


Somewhat amusingly, I suspect that the GW financial report does not factor in international sales made by European independant sellers.



> GW cannot be compared to luxury cars. Luxury car have one thing that GW won't ever have. They are a social symbol. Very rich people will keep paying more for a Porsche, because they can drive it to work and brag about it. More, it become a status symbol that might have a career/income value if you're a professional. They are hardly replaceable by a equivalent, except maybe a luxury boat.


It doesn't have to be a luxury car. It is just an example of a type of product that makes a good profit from low sales at higher cost rather than more sales at a lower cost.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

increaso said:


> It doesn't have to be a luxury car. It is just an example of a type of product that makes a good profit from low sales at higher cost rather than more sales at a lower cost.


The thing is, those luxury items usually charge for one thing: status symbol. If Gucci bags were cheap, they'd lose symbol status. GW products are niche products, not luxury products (even though lots of people, including me, often interchange the words). For a luxury item, you usually have a status associated. FW models might be considered luxury items, because you can bring that model to your club and show it off.

On that same reasonning, if GW pushes the envelope too much, they will increase to black market production (like if they were a luxury item). Already, on eBay, you can buy recasts, but then again mostly of FW models, because it responds better to the luxury product market. And let's not talk about codice/rulebook downloads.

When a niche product rises prices too much, it doesn't drive people to a black market. It pushed them to another niche. And those niches are plentiful and sometimes not-so-nichey. They are, basically, any sci-fi or fantasy related small group games. 

Now, it seems, from what you both tell me, that GW is pretty well implanted in the UK "geek" audience. Far from it here. I'd say that GW products are completely unknown to 95%+ of the population in larger Montreal and is played far far less than M:TG and/or RPGs. I'd like to find WoTC's sales globally, but I can't seem to . It would be a good example of comparative sales, both in NA and worldwide.

Phil


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

boreas said:


> The thing is, those luxury items usually charge for one thing: status symbol. If Gucci bags were cheap, they'd lose symbol status. GW products are niche products, not luxury products (even though lots of people, including me, often interchange the words). For a luxury item, you usually have a status associated. FW models might be considered luxury items, because you can bring that model to your club and show it off.
> 
> SNIP
> Phil


It's interesting to see how different things are across the water re: popularity of different game systems.

I have seen on warseer how people bitch over whether GW is a 'luxury' item or not and it was poorly compared to sports cars. It's fair to go with your phrasing and call it a 'niche' product.

I don't think it's so much about status in the UK. Warhammer is the tabletop game. You can find a Warhammer store in the UK in almost any decent town (although we have only just got one here in the last 12 months or so). The store is pretty much the place where you meet up to play and unlike Canada and America and other geographically large places you can pretty much find a store (not a LFGS, but the actual GW store) within 30 miles of any spot in England. I live in mid-Cheshire (which is fairly rural) and I know of 4 stores within 25 miles.

Basically GW players are catered for better over here and there isn't much competition. You need to have or use Warhammer minis to play 40k in a GW store so they lure you in and you are pretty much stuck with buying the brand. 

I can't think of a great comparison, but an analogy would be having a bicycle when your friends have motorbikes. It's not about the status (although motorbikes are cooler) you simply can't hang out with your motorised friends because you can't do what their doing.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I dont even think GW should be classed as a niche, i dont think they can really be classed as a subset of another market, they pretty much created the market they are in, they are unique, every time these debates come up people start chucking around analogies and poor examples, because simply there is no other company that does exactly what GW does, some come close and some are in the same arena but GW does not have a direct competitor with the exact same business model, so really its impossible to say they are doing anything wrong, because they can only be measured against themselves, and if you looks at there successes and growth over the last 30 years and the simple fact they have managed to weather some serious storms over the years and have grown from a few guys selling RPG's on the 70's to a global business with £100 million a year turn over from a factory in nottingham England, they are doing something right. 

Also i dont think its fair to say that the hobby and GW is shrinking, if anything the "greater" hobby has grown significantly and at the forefront of that is GW, most of the small companies that are able to produce models and such, can do so because of GW's success, if GW were a poor business then why do they have so many pretenders? There is no evidence to say that GWs prices are driving people from the hobby,GW still sell millions of units a year,new stores are opening, more large chain store indies are stocking the range,the black libary range tops charts,computer games with GW IP are very well thought of and sell very well, and blogs,forums,tweets and websites devoted to the GW hobby pop up all the time....despite people claiming they are going to play "cheaper" alternatives.


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## Todeswind (Mar 2, 2010)

I think in discussing this we've sort of lost sight of something.

I love the FLGS, I don't even disagree that it is contrary to logic that GW would ban the sale of miniatures by wholesalers for discount prices from a business persecutive, however it is totally contrary to logic to claim that the cost of business in Australia would completely explain why there are paying double to cost of miniatures elsewhere in the world.Ultimately the issue is not the Malestrom and so on were "selling" worldwide so much as they were "underselling." And its easy to understand how they were able to do that, GW's pricing structure is practically designed so that they can be undersold on an international market. GW ought to be adjusting their prices yearly so that they are roughly even from country to country. Say just set the prices in UK currency and convert it yearly. 

It makes no sense for an international company that sells purely to the developed world to be selling its product for two wildly different prices in two different countries. That is the entire point of having a standard retail price, to make sure that product X costs Y dollars worldwide. Malestrom and other companies are able to vastly undersell GW and local gaming stores because the prices of purchasing miniatures in Canada and Australia are so wildly out of proportion with the prices in the rest of the world. Were the prices simply at a flat rate from region to region there wouldn't need to be any of these absurd restrictions on miniatures sales abroad.

And I say "absurd" not because I want to buy miniatures for as cheap as I can manage to get them (though it would unquestionably be a lie if I said I do not) but because I live in a region of the world that is virtually unsupported by GW for all intents and purposes. There simply are not physical FLGS in asia outside of Japan. Luckily GW direct does ship in Japan, but there is no FLGS near where I live in need of being protected nor are there GW stores. In fact for the majority of gamers in Asia and South America this ban isn't so much "pricing them out of the hobby" but "banning them from realistically being able to import GW product."

I have a couple of friends in China and India who are now asking me if I can ship them miniatures and frankly I doubt they'll want me to when I quote the shipping costs to them. The ROW ban makes NO sense for countries unsupported by GW direct shipping or with nonexistent FLGS presence. Where are gamers who do not live in countries that GW is directing its marketing energy towards supposed to buy their miniatures if companies like Malestrom aren't allowed to ship to them?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, it makes sense if GW thinks it has a complete stranglehold on the products. In fact, they do have it. But what they don't see, IMHO, is that they have more competitors than they think. Outside UK, and I profoundly believe it's a cultural thing, they do have competitors, though. The thing is, the competition is not miniature wargaming. It's a myriad of other hobbies.

Now, I think that GW has done a great job in bringing this hobby to where it is. The extraordinary background, the great models, the painting/hobby article and the enjoyment of the game (despite the rules/codice/FAQ being the weak link) have built them a following like no other mini-wargaming company. 

But I still think that GW is overconfident in it's business model when it come to the ROW. The cultural differences (even in the type of gaming WH40k provides, where NA players seem to play quite differently than UK gamers), the geographical differences (proximity to a FLGS/GW store), the fidelity to mini-wargaming (CCG/videogames being so much stronger in Asia, RPG/CCG/videogames being, I think, stronger in NA) are all factors that might drive players not to another mini-wargame, but to a different hobby altogether.

Now, only time will tell, so I won't prolonge that discussion in what could become an annoying back-and-forth for other forum members. I do hope that Maidel and B&K are right and that the hobby will keep growing. But I'm not optimistic as the number of players keep shrinking and the vets have stopped buying new stuff.

Phil


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

The fundamental flaw in GW is that it has decided on a path that i think will see it become an inhouse distributer, meaning that in years to come, the only place you will get GW product is from GW Bricks & Mortar Stores and Online Services.

This will eventually give GW Global Absolute Control on its own product World wide.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> This will eventually give GW Global Absolute Control on its own product World wide.


they already have total control over its own products, they are the manufacture and distributor, anyone selling its products on in a professional capacity has to dance to GW's tune, but GW really dont want to only sell via its shops and online, they want small and large indies to stock it too, they want it in as many places as possible, thats how you grow your business, what they dont want however is big british indies undercutting brick and mortar GW stores and Indies in expanding territories


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> they already have total control over its own products, they are the manufacture and distributor, anyone selling its products on in a professional capacity has to dance to GW's tune, but GW really dont want to only sell via its shops and online, they want small and large indies to stock it too, they want it in as many places as possible, thats how you grow your business, what they dont want however is big british indies undercutting brick and mortar GW stores and Indies in expanding territories


Well i absolutely agree with you. But i have this gut feeling that just wont go away, my gut feelings are very rarely wrong, i hope in this case it is.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i absolutely agree with you. But i have this gut feeling that just wont go away, my gut feelings are very rarely wrong, i hope in this case it is.


If in 'years to come' there is a GW in every major city in the world - what would the issue be about only allowing the models to be sold 'in house.'

There are numerous companies that already do this (big food chains like macdonalds or burger king for example), cars are only avaiable via approved dealerships (so effectively 'in house').

If GW did remove its product from other gaming stores right now, then it would be an issue, not only for the public, but also for the company as a whole, because there are huge areas it DOESNT cover - but if one did it did, what would the problem be?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Maidel said:


> If in 'years to come' there is a GW in every major city in the world - what would the issue be about only allowing the models to be sold 'in house.'
> 
> There are numerous companies that already do this (big food chains like macdonalds or burger king for example), cars are only avaiable via approved dealerships (so effectively 'in house').
> 
> If GW did remove its product from other gaming stores right now, then it would be an issue, not only for the public, but also for the company as a whole, because there are huge areas it DOESNT cover - but if one did it did, what would the problem be?


I suppose you are right.


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## ThunderHawk (Oct 6, 2010)

There are NO GW shops in Indonesia.

Still, there are lots of gaming shops where me and my fellows can play.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

One of my local LGS owners was saying today that his GW-related sales are down 80+% from the last financial year, and when he moves to their bigger Store in a month or 2 he isn't stocking any GW product at all, and not just because of the drop in sales but also because the vast majority of comments he's hearing from his customers/gamers who play in-store is that not only are they not buying anymore 40K and/or Fantasy models but are moving to other games systems , namely Warmachine...reason given that it's the king hit from the price increase, the Embargo, and also the lack of concern/poor attitude that GW are showing towards their customers.

He also said that this is the general vibe that many other LGS's are saying as well.

Doesn't surprise me one bit, and mirrors the actions/feelings that many of the Gamers I know have.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Doesn't really surprise me. Of the 5 guys I play with only 1 is still buying GW stuff after the embargo. 

Two have picked up Warmachine though, so I may look into it too.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Doesn't really surprise me. Of the 5 guys I play with only 1 is still buying GW stuff after the embargo.
> 
> Two have picked up Warmachine though, so I may look into it too.


so you guys have dumped a game you already have stuff for in favor of buying something else?


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> so you guys have dumped a game you already have stuff for in favor of buying something else?


Hell no...my regular group have over, damn probably 200K of 40K alone, let alone Fantasy, and we'll still be playing those games...just not buying anymore GW models.

But yes, we will (and are already) also be playing Warmachine....it's a win-win, for us gamers at least.

I feel sorry for my mate who owns the LGS, but he understands completely why this is happening...hell he's a massive gamer himself but is sticking to Warmachine.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> so you guys have dumped a game you already have stuff for in favor of buying something else?


What makes you think we 'dumped the game'? I just stopped buying new stuff, I didn't throw all my models on the floor and jump up and down on them. 

Warmachine is tempting cause the models are pretty and I can still buy them from Wayland/Maelstrom for cheap. The fact that PP doesn't give Australia the finger as often as GW does is just a bonus.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> so you guys have dumped a game you already have stuff for in favor of buying something else?


Why do you have to give up one game to pick up another? Why does not buying new things mean that you're going to keep playing the game? Why are we asking so many questions? 

I know many people in my group have sworn off buying new stuff for the moment, but most would probably go back to buying GW if the prices came back down to something reasonable, and even those who aren't buying are still playing the game with their current armies (many have backlogs of stuff to build and paint anyway). The thing is though that it has opened the flood gates for competing systems, and many are moving over to competing systems to get their kicks, and some of those might go back eventually, but others will find a different game that suits them. You'll just have to get used to the fact that wargaming is not a GW monopoly anymore, that there are other, mainstream choices now, and some people are exploring other systems.


Edit: looks up at thread - looks like I'm too slow


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> What makes you think we 'dumped the game'? I just stopped buying new stuff, I didn't throw all my models on the floor and jump up and down on them.
> 
> Warmachine is tempting cause the models are pretty and I can still buy them from Wayland/Maelstrom for cheap. The fact that PP doesn't give Australia the finger as often as GW does is just a bonus.


Well the negativity of your post mostly made me assume you had walked away from the GW hobby and if you look it was a question not a statement, the correct response was, no, we are still playing but just not gonna buy anything new for the moment because GW have done us an injustice.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Same trend here... People (like me) who like painting have started to buy non-gaming minis, just for the sake of painting (like this one http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/m...auscon-steampunk-dorothy-limited-edition.html).

The rest of the budget has been shunted to boardgames... Of course, we're keeping our finished armies. We are selling our incomplete armies and whatever is on sprue (bits and stuff).

Sadly for my, it seems that the Sisters of Battle army that started my love story with WH40k will never see an update. So close, yet so far... 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Ive made a little note of all the people who have said these 'Im not buying anymore models' - I currently have 19 names.

I shall name and shame any of them that post up pictures of 'new' models.

And it will happen. 


And please, Im not trying to be 'controversial' or 'Pro-GW' or anything else you want to throw at me - Im just treating it as a little exercise and hopefully a small amount of humour. Ive even made a little banner that I will post up in their threads....


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Ive made a little note of all the people who have said these 'Im not buying anymore models' - I currently have 19 names.
> 
> I shall name and shame any of them that post up pictures of 'new' models.


With my backlog I could be posting up new stuff for 1000+ years without buying anything new. I may be exaggerating slightly.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> With my backlog I could be posting up new stuff for 1000+ years without buying anything new. I may be exaggerating slightly.


Ah - dont worry - thats why I said 'new' - so, basically anything made after Dark Eldar/tomb kings.

:biggrin:

So, in the words of dads army - 'Your name vill also go on zee list'


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Seems pretty reasonable to me.


"Thank you sir, may I have another?"

It's only reasonable if you think it's reasonable to cripple potential product moved, crush customer trust, and ignore thousands of other opinions for the sole reason that it's more cost effective to ship the same amount of product for more money, even if it just sits there in the shop.

Honestly I'd like to see the numbers on how well this policy is working for them in terms of bulk product moved through australia pre-decision and post. Albeit this is probably improbable to procure.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> "Thank you sir, may I have another?"


Waffles you devil, how did you know? :grin:


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Ive made a little note of all the people who have said these 'Im not buying anymore models' - I currently have 19 names.
> 
> I shall name and shame any of them that post up pictures of 'new' models.
> 
> ...


Go for it.opcorn:
You argue about this whole issue in a very mature and well thought out way, very logical (as you like to put it). 

This Hobby however, for the individual, is a lot about the emotive side, and logic is more suited to GW's stand on this issue...not to everyone of course (like yourself).

I will throw a little something at you...'name and shame' says far more about you than the people on which you perpetrate this...arrogant much.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Dear god.

Does anyone on this site have a sense of humour?

I even quoted dads bloody army!

I haven't got a list, and I bloody well have better things to do with my time than chase people up for that.

Do I need to use a certain colour text if I want to make a joke? Or maybe there is a humourous font I can use.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Obviously yes you do....the humour didn't smack me in the face (one little smilie doesn't cut it), and actually fits with your take on the situation...from what I've garnered from your many posts on this issue.

Anyway...peace out.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Dear god.
> 
> Does anyone on this site have a sense of humour?
> 
> ...


If you find the humorous font you'll have to let me know what it is so I can stop getting banned every other month for being too smarmy and jagged.

See I think as long as you provide a consistent line of posting in the same sort of attitude, people will generally pick up on how you type and how you react to situational comedy. Or if you just put a fuck ton of smilies on everything. Here. Watch.

You're a:threaten::threaten::threaten::threaten: decidedly :blackeye: sickening :biggrin:cuntwipe :search: on the soul :headbuttf tabletop :angry::angry: gaming and I wish :grin: a blight opcorn:k::victoryn your:ireful2: family:wink::wink::wink:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Nope. Sorry waffles. Evidentally smilies don't work.

To be honest, I don't think it's that people don't 'understand' humour, it's just that they don't see it when they don't want to.

And I don't see how it remotely 'fits with my point of view'. My point of view has always been to look for a reason why something happens. If there isn't a reason behind something then fine make a fuss, but GW most of the time has a reason and that is what I have been highlighting all along.

I'm going with orange as my 'humour' colour, and I'll put it in my sig so people understand. Anything in orange from now on means 'don't take seriously'.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

For fuck sake everyone calm down, its worse than a child minding centre full of kiddies with ADHD.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Achaylus72 said:


> For fuck sake everyone calm down, its worse than a child minding centre full of kiddies with ADHD.


Now that's funny:biggrin: and I am calm...have to be because 1 more 'turn' could be my last:drinks:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> For fuck sake everyone calm down, its worse than a child minding centre full of kiddies with ADHD.


Waffles, I don't think someone understood it was a joke.


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## Jormungandr (May 11, 2011)

Ive been thinking of setting up a commissions website, and I had an Idea for Australian Hobbyists, where if they pay maybe 5% more than Wayland Games' price, I would order the models myself, before getting on with the commission business, and shipping in boxed foam trays.

Just wanted to guage interest, really, I will be starting a thread in the painting section in a moment.


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## Jormungandr (May 11, 2011)

thread can be found here:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=995785


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## DeceivedRadek (Jun 4, 2011)

boreas said:


> The thing is, I wonder if their customers want this business model. I try never to go in what I call "the informercial center" (the GW store). First, it's downtown, so it's a nightmare going there. Second, the personnel treat me like an idiot who's never played (even though I explain gently to them that I do).
> 
> Also, My whole gaming group has learned about WFb (and later WH40k) through the internet. We tought ourselves to model, paint and play. We do so in my friend's basement.
> 
> ...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DeceivedRadek said:


> I think you are the norm. all my friends learned is all online


in the uk, with GWs very high store presence (at least one in every city and major urban area) it's not the norm, but in the rest of the world it probably is.


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