# What if The Fall never happened?



## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

So there are always a lot of topics about "what if the HH never occurred", and i was thinking, what about the Eldar version of race changing event, what do you guys think would've went down, would the Eldar put down the emp and his imperium, etc?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

more likely the Imperium put down the Eldar


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

If the Eldar had remained at the height of their power, chances are Humanity would have been squished flat. One uber psyker is no match for hundereds of nearly-just-as-powerful psykers.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Hard to say, especially considering the Fall of the Eldar also ended the Dark Age of Technology, when mankind was arguably at its greatest. Plus, with the end of the DAoT was ultimately what lead to the rise of the Emperor and the Imperium. So if the Fall didn't happen, Slaanesh's birth would not have happened (or at least the violent way it was) and the galaxy would not be plagued by the severe Warp Storms of the Chaos God's birth, hence the DAoT would have come to an end and the Imperium of Man would never come to be, at least as we know it.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

We don't know what human civilization was like during the DAoT. We could have encountered the Eldar and opened trade with them, similar to what happen when Humanity met the Vulkans in Star Trek.

Hell the eldar could have evolved to pure psychic beings by M41, leaving an empty universe for humanity to inherit.

Or Humanity and Eldar could have fought a massive war until intolerable losses were taken on both sides.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Akatsuki13,

Was it not the case that the birth of Slaneesh actually FREED Terra from the Warp Storm that had encapsulated our solar system, and thus allowed the Emperor to begin the Great Crusade?

I was always under the impression that the end of the Dark Age of Technology came with the beginning of "Old Night"/the Age of Strife, which lasted several millennia in its own right, and ended, as stated above, by the Fall. I had understood the onset of the Age of Strife and the Warp Storms to have been caused by the proliferation of psykers among the widespread Human race. Lexicanum, on the other hand, claims that it was the slow birth of Slaneesh that caused those, with its birth cry finally causing the Eye of Terror to form and the other Warp Storms to go out.

Which is the case?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

As far as I know, the Birth of Slaanesh unleashed the Warp Storms that ultimately shattered the human empire of the DAoT. The Storms for centuries until they finally dissipated (for the most part as there are Storms that are said to be still be raging from that time) allowing the Emperor to launch the GC. In fact, I vaguely recall Horus Rising hinting at that happening. Though just involving the sudden coming of the Warp Storms and their gradual dissipation.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Slaanesh`s growth caused the warp storms over several thousand years. But when she was born their energy was spent and they disappaited. 

I believe the source for this info is in one of the codexes. Possibly DE...?


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Slaanesh`s growth caused the warp storms over several thousand years. But when she was born their energy was spent and they disappaited.
> 
> I believe the source for this info is in one of the codexes. Possibly DE...?


Na I have that codex and the only place they talk about Slaanesh is when they are talking about how the DE invented a way to keep themselves from her and how she influences them. More likely CD or CSM I would think.


On the OP, Humanity would be squashed, like a bug. On a further note, not sure if there is a reason behind it in fluff, but why, if Eldar could see so far into the future, didn't they see what the Imperium would become and snuff them out when they were masters of the universe?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> Na I have that codex and the only place they talk about Slaanesh is when they are talking about how the DE invented a way to keep themselves from her and how she influences them. More likely CD or CSM I would think.
> 
> 
> On the OP, Humanity would be squashed, like a bug. On a further note, not sure if there is a reason behind it in fluff, but why, if Eldar could see so far into the future, didn't they see what the Imperium would become and snuff them out when they were masters of the universe?


i thought in fulgrim, the farseer tried to do just that only to have fulgrim and his sons turn on him, granted it was under the power of the Lauren sword which in itself was a weapon of Slannesh, but the eldar did try and warn them of what was occuring. 

op seems that the Eldars fall paved the way for humanity to expand itself further and reunify themselves, had it not happened then the GC might not have and neither then in itself the HH might not have happened


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm pretty sure aswell that it was the birth of Slaanesh that 'blew out' the warpstorms around the sol system, thus allowing the Emperor to launch the Great Crusade.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> i thought in fulgrim, the farseer tried to do just that only to have fulgrim and his sons turn on him, granted it was under the power of the Lauren sword which in itself was a weapon of Slannesh, but the eldar did try and warn them of what was occuring.


Yeah Eldrad tried to warn the Emp. through Fulgrim but Fulgrim was alsready corrupted, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was why didn't they see it when humanity was still, like, neanderthals.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> On the OP, Humanity would be squashed, like a bug.


I really don't think it would be that one-sided. I'm not saying the Eldar couldn't beat Humanity, they most likely could. But it would probably be pretty brutal. Remember, humanity was at the height of its technological powers and had enough powerful tech that many alien races signed non-aggression treaties with them rather than fight them. Not to mention that the human population would very likely have been enormous. Think about it, this is the original human empire that initially spread the species all over the Milky Way.



Cyleune said:


> Yeah Eldrad tried to warn the Emp. through Fulgrim but Fulgrim was alsready corrupted, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was why didn't they see it when humanity was still, like, neanderthals.


Probably because, as we've established, the Great Crusade and thus the Horus Heresy was only made possible by the Fall. The Eldar were probably so sure of their dominance and never thought that they would ever reach a point like the Fall, and thus, if they had seen it, hadn't considered that such an event like the HH would ever be able to occur.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Hard to say, especially considering the Fall of the Eldar also ended the Dark Age of Technology, when mankind was arguably at its greatest.


Well not exactly. The turbulence of the warp is what caused the Age of Strife (and therefore the end of the Dark Age of Technology). To be technical anyway. 



Wusword77 said:


> We don't know what human civilization was like during the DAoT. We could have encountered the Eldar and opened trade with them, similar to what happen when Humanity met the Vulkans in Star Trek.


It's almost certain that one of the alien species that humanity maintained "non-aggression pacts" with, was the Eldar Empire. 



Wusword77 said:


> Or Humanity and Eldar could have fought a massive war until intolerable losses were taken on both sides.


The Eldar Empire was by far the most supreme force in the galaxy. If they so wished, they could have destroyed the human federations, even with humanity being at the peak of their technological achievements.



Phoebus said:


> I had understood the onset of the Age of Strife and the Warp Storms to have been caused by the proliferation of psykers among the widespread Human race. Lexicanum, on the other hand, claims that it was the slow birth of Slaneesh that caused those, with its birth cry finally causing the Eye of Terror to form and the other Warp Storms to go out.
> 
> Which is the case?


It's generally seen as the coalescing of Slaanesh within the warp that causes the warp turbulence. The rise in the manifestations of human psykers is most likely a result of the increased warp activity throughout the galaxy (caused by Slaanesh).



Cyleune said:


> On the OP, Humanity would be squashed, like a bug. On a further note, not sure if there is a reason behind it in fluff, but why, if Eldar could see so far into the future, didn't they see what the Imperium would become and snuff them out when they were masters of the universe?


It is by no means that simple. The Eldar don't _know_ the future. 

OT: The Fall of the Eldar is the underlying factor to most of Imperial history. The descent of Eldar soceity into anarchy is what indirectly caused the Age of Strife and the end of the Dark Age of Technology. The Fall itself is what allowed the Emperor to initiate the Great Crusade and forge the Imperium. If the Eldar never "fell" then potentially the galaxy would be as it was during the Dark Age of Technology, well perhaps not politically but at least in essence. Dependent of course though on other factors, like the Emperor and the Chaos Gods. The Fall not occuring though pretty much changes the basis of everything 40k.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

The Eldar were at the hieght of thier powers when their fall happened and Slannesh came screaming into the universe, thier hedonistic ways brought that about so imho the eldar fall had to happen in order for the greater powers of the universe to move on and perhapes teach the eldar a lesson that they had been too arrogant to even understand at the time and thus such arrogance caused thier downfall and such excesses not only (I believe correct me if i am wrong baron or COTE or anyone else) killed the majority if not all thier own gods but brought into creation a god/goddess whom the eldar fear above all else and above all others.
Similary the Emperor was forging ahead with his new Imperium intent on bringing humanity to thier rightful place (as he saw it) as the natural inheritors of the universe. His technomagic created sons (can't seem to find the right word for the primarchs creations) and in turn thier gene enhanced sons paving the way to light humanity and it was a grand gesture.
However as in all things, the bigger they are the harder they must fall. The Eldar ruled the waves as it were and thier society was grandious and thier technology far beyound anything ever seen at the time.
The Great Crusade was the human equivelent and as they got more influential and more powerful the universe powers stepped in once more and destroyed all that had been achieved from the inside out.
I think in the long and the short of it is what the universe gives it takes away. The balance restored and things needed to be put back into some order unfortunatly that order is ten thousand years of warfare


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

The Eldar (if the fall had never happened) would be able to squash humanity like a bug, because they were the top dogs back then. The eldar had machines to do everything for them and humanity's empire at the time was kinda small compared to the eldar's. I reckon they would have had a hard time killing the emperor though.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> I reckon they would have had a hard time killing the emperor though.


1 uber-psyker is no match for millions of nearly as powerful uber-psykers.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> 1 uber-psyker is no match for millions of nearly as powerful uber-psykers.


It should be noted though that by reading between the lines throughout the established lore, it seems clear that the Emperor is much more powerful than any of the Eldar. Or at least _'modern'_ Eldar (as opposed to _'ancient'_ Eldar (those who stood against the Yngir and their Legions) or Eldar of the Empire pre-Fall).

Take into account that the Emperor is the single reason why the galaxy hasn't already been _'engulfed by the Realm of Chaos'_. His power is beyond comprehension. In any hypothetical total war between the Eldar Empire (pre-Fall) and the Human Federations of the Dark Age of Technology, the Emperor would have no doubt played a major role. Although it should be noted he wasn't in any known position of dominance or rulership among humanity during that age, so he would have at least initially not have been able to play a major political role in the conflict. Being as powerful and apparently as fiercely protective of his race as he was however would have no doubt resulted in him playing a major role in the conflict.

Regardless though it has always been a subject of intrigue for me; how the Eldar (Craftworlders and otherwise) view/perceive the Emperor. And whether or not they realise his importance to mortals as a whole, not just humanity. I can only currently recall seeing one minor reference in _Codex: Eye of Terror_, where Eldrad refers to him as the human's _'corpse of a seer'_. That besides the Dark Eldar (and C'tan for that matter) finding it highly amusing that humanity worships a corpse.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

They probably view him as another nuisance, and I can see them scorning the Imperium with something like, "You worship a corpse, you Idiots!"


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It should be noted though that by reading between the lines throughout the established lore, it seems clear that the Emperor is much more powerful than any of the Eldar. Or at least _'modern'_ Eldar (as opposed to _'ancient'_ Eldar (those who stood against the Yngir and their Legions) or Eldar of the Empire pre-Fall).


I don't think you really need to read between the lines all that much. The Emp has some truly ridiculous feats. For example, I've never heard of a single farseer coming even close to being able to force their will on the minds of a 100,000 astartes simultaneously like the Emperor did the in _The First Heretic_. That was actually kinda fucking scary how easily he could render such a powerful force completely useless.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> I don't think you really need to read between the lines all that much. The Emp has some truly ridiculous feats. For example, I've never heard of a single farseer coming even close to being able to force their will on the minds of a 100,000 astartes simultaneously like the Emperor did the in _The First Heretic_. That was actually kinda fucking scary how easily he could render such a powerful force completely useless.


i didn't actually understand the scope of what uberpschye could do until i read _first heretic_, it was one thing knowing that he lights the way for the many vessels that sail the imperium but to bring an entire legion down to its knees by his will alone.....made me sit back and go whoa do not piss this man off


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

There'd be a heck of a lot more Eldar players, but still very little success. The only way for Eldar to win is to die, so their Death God will kill everyone :biggrin:.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> I don't think you really need to read between the lines all that much.


Well what I meant was that it's never directly stated that the Emperor is more powerful than any individual Eldar. Hence the reading between the lines.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Well heres a thought, wouldn't pre-fall have all of their gods still alive and kicking? Surely a full strength Khaine, who took on Slaanesh and wasn't completely consumed, would be quite a match for the emprah, along with The Laughing God, and all the others, right?


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Cchaos likely would have helped humanity, at least fought against the dlar full force. Chaos potentially could have been threatened if they saw humanity was in danger of being killed off, as humanity is their greatest source of power, or would become their greatest source.

Besides its already hinted chaos made deals with the emperor, I could see chaos giving humans blesings to aid in their fight against the eldar. Would these gifts likely have untold consequences? Maybe, but I could see the eldar losing, hard.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

But the emp is only one dude, and I don't think we knOw if chaos is trustworthy and on top of that ALL of the eldar gods who might be on par with the emperor I f not collectively, even with ruinious powers, would smash him. Imo


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Well heres a thought, wouldn't pre-fall have all of their gods still alive and kicking? Surely a full strength Khaine, who took on Slaanesh and wasn't completely consumed, would be quite a match for the emprah, along with The Laughing God, and all the others, right?


I love it when people try to compare the Emp to gods.

Wether you like it or not, the Emp is still only HUMAN and he CANNOT challenge the will of ANY god.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

From the fluff available on the Eldar, their decline wasn't over 1,000 years, or even the span of the Imperium's 10,000, but on the order of 50,000 - 100,000+ years. The Eldar Empire that was destroyed, by all accounts, could make the Chaos Gods blush with their excesses and decadence. The Fall was inescapable, but even if it didn't happen, I think the Emperor would have gazed out on the galaxy as it would have been and decided that his little corner was good enough. Considering the Emperor had been around about 30,000 years by the time of The Fall, he'd already taken his measure of the Eldar and decided not to move against them.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> I love it when people try to compare the Emp to gods.
> 
> Wether you like it or not, the Emp is still only HUMAN and he CANNOT challenge the will of ANY god.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. The HH novel Mechcanius revealed that the Emperor battled and contained the C'tan known as the Void Dragon. Admittedly, the Star God was weakened by its hibernation but even a weakened C'tan is still a formidable being, far beyond what mortals could defeat.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> I love it when people try to compare the Emp to gods.
> 
> Wether you like it or not, the Emp is still only HUMAN and he CANNOT challenge the will of ANY god.


Well, that's kinda my point, I'm saying to the people who thought the eldar would Lose a conflict that their gods were still around....


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> I wouldn't be so sure about that. The HH novel Mechcanius revealed that the Emperor battled and contained the C'tan known as the Void Dragon. Admittedly, the Star God was weakened by its hibernation but even a weakened C'tan is still a formidable being, far beyond what mortals could defeat.Hellhound (p50, 101 C:IG)
> Horus Heresy


From my understanding the C'Tan aren't exactly gods but sort of beings born from the death of a star...



> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From the fluff available on the Eldar, their decline wasn't over 1,000 years, or even the span of the Imperium's 10,000, but on the order of 50,000 - 100,000+ years. The Eldar Empire that was destroyed, by all accounts, could make the Chaos Gods blush with their excesses and decadence. The Fall was inescapable, but even if it didn't happen, I think the Emperor would have gazed out on the galaxy as it would have been and decided that his little corner was good enough. Considering the Emperor had been around about 30,000 years by the time of The Fall, he'd already taken his measure of the Eldar and decided not to move against them.


Yeah it's like that, though as he saw them declin I think he would begin to move against them but still extremely cautiously.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> From my understanding the C'Tan aren't exactly gods but sort of beings born from the death of a star...


No, they are the Gods of the material universe, born shortly after the Big Bang created the universe. They predate both the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods. Often times in the fluff, the Imperials call the technology of the Necrons techno-sorcery. It is not because the Necrons use sorcery in conjunction with their technology, it's because their technology is so beyond every other race's understanding of science and technology that it appears more akin to sorcery. It is not because of the technology that the Necrontyr possessed but rather the knowledge of the material universe that the C'tan possess.

Nor can they be easily killed. At most, a mortal could destroy the necrodermis body that contains them while their true form cannot be destroyed (or even seen for that matter) by any means that the other races have. There is only one confirmed way to destroy them, have another C'tan consume them. Supposedly the Eldar God, Vaul, created the Blackstone Fortresses to destroy the C'tan but it's never been confirmed if they've been used successfully to destroy a C'tan or that the Eldar truly know how to use them against the C'tan.

They are Gods, just in a different sense from the Chaos Gods, Mork and Gork, and the Emperor.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> No, they are the Gods of the material universe, born shortly after the Big Bang created the universe. They predate both the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods. Often times in the fluff, the Imperials call the technology of the Necrons techno-sorcery. It is not because the Necrons use sorcery in conjunction with their technology, it's because their technology is so beyond every other race's understanding of science and technology that it appears more akin to sorcery. It is not because of the technology that the Necrontyr possessed but rather the knowledge of the material universe that the C'tan possess.
> 
> Nor can they be easily killed. At most, a mortal could destroy the necrodermis body that contains them while their true form cannot be destroyed (or even seen for that matter) by any means that the other races have. There is only one confirmed way to destroy them, have another C'tan consume them. Supposedly the Eldar God, Vaul, created the Blackstone Fortresses to destroy the C'tan but it's never been confirmed if they've been used successfully to destroy a C'tan or that the Eldar truly know how to use them against the C'tan.
> 
> They are Gods, just in a different sense from the Chaos Gods, Mork and Gork, and the Emperor.


Yeah what he siad, , oh and pleas the Emprah is a false god


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> No, they are the Gods of the material universe, born shortly after the Big Bang created the universe. They predate both the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods. Often times in the fluff, the Imperials call the technology of the Necrons techno-sorcery. It is not because the Necrons use sorcery in conjunction with their technology, it's because their technology is so beyond every other race's understanding of science and technology that it appears more akin to sorcery. It is not because of the technology that the Necrontyr possessed but rather the knowledge of the material universe that the C'tan possess.


This is correct 




> Nor can they be easily killed. At most, a mortal could destroy the necrodermis body that contains them while their true form cannot be destroyed (or even seen for that matter) by any means that the other races have. There is only one confirmed way to destroy them, have another C'tan consume them. Supposedly the Eldar God, Vaul, created the Blackstone Fortresses to destroy the C'tan but it's never been confirmed if they've been used successfully to destroy a C'tan or that the Eldar truly know how to use them against the C'tan.


This is also true. However, the Blackstone Fortresses were used a few times (not sure by whom, probably Eldar) on the Void Dragon, seriously maiming him and expelling him from the Universe but did not kill him, as he only retreated to wherver he came from and is now resting there to stirke again. Now most of the Blackstone Fortresses are destroyed but there are a few still around (I know Chaos has at least one, but I think the Imperium found them after the Eldar abandoned them and now use them as their big warships, but they don't know, as far as I know, how to use the Warp cannon installed on them).


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> This is also true. However, the Blackstone Fortresses were used a few times (not sure by whom, probably Eldar) on the Void Dragon, seriously maiming him and expelling him from the Universe but did not kill him, as he only retreated to wherver he came from and is now resting there to stirke again.


Yeah, I forgot about that the Void Dragon had been injured by the Blackstone Fortresses back in the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones. But most likely, it would have been Vaul himself that unleashed the power of the Fortresses on the Dragon. However, since then none of them have been fully used to their full potential, it's quite possible that the knowledge of how to fully use them has been lost with the Fall and Vaul's death. Of course, the damage done to the Void Dragon didn't stop the C'tan or weaken him enough to entice the Nightbringer from making a snack of him like the other C'tan he's consumed, as the Dragon would also in hibernation alongside the Nightbringer and the Deceiver, until he woke and did battle with the Emperor long, long before the GC and was imprisoned on Mars.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Of course, the damage done to the Void Dragon didn't stop the C'tan or weaken him enough to entice the Nightbringer from making a snack of him like the other C'tan he's consumed, as the Dragon would also in hibernation alongside the Nightbringer and the Deceiver, until he woke and did battle with the Emperor long, long before the GC and was imprisoned on Mars


I didn't know 'bout all that 

Yeah I always assumed most of the technology to use and create the Fortresses has been lost, I'm noticing a trend in fluff that all the races are declining. (Besides the Tau)


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