# Big Es Divine Power?



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

So reading False Gods recently I notice something that made NO SENSE to me at all.

When Sindemann and Keeler were attack by the Horror, she banish it with the Big Es divin power. However the Big E with all this Divin power granted to his followers has very little clue whats going on in the Galaxy. Hell Eldrad saw what would happen with the HH where Emperor could not. Yet this power that Keeler wields in the Emperors name had impact on the Daemon. WTF kinda crappy writing is that? Any thoughts on his Godhood and Emps lack of knowledge of his own powers?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I think any discussion on the degree of the Emperor's sentience or awareness would ultimately amount to a fistful of interpretations.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Why are you so sure it was the Emperor's power she was utilising? 

A widely used counter to this issue is the assumption that Keeler was some type of latent Psyker, and that her faith somehow manifested her own abilities. That, or her unshakeable faith bent the Warp to do her bidding (or what her faith dictated).


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

How do you know that he is not fully aware of what is going on and does not let onto it? I've said in other threads that I don't think that the Emperor's motives have ever been clear.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

I think that Emperor knew (at least to some degree) of Horus's treachery, but he just couldn't force himself to believe that his favorite son, along with others, could betray him.

Concerning his "divine power", as you put it - there are many possible explanations. Maybe you have misunderstood the situation a bit - it's not like Emperor himself granted her the power, it was more probable that she simply discovered "faith" or her own psychic powers. In 40k, half of the Imperium has the ability to banish daemons (for example, Inquisition) and the Emperor doesn't give them power since he is barely alive. Instead, they have blessed weapons and whatnot to do the job.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It`s just faith. Daemons cannot stand faith, they prey on fear and unease, etc.

The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance. But he does act as a figure head for their beliefs and their faith. Grey knights are especially good at this as they are also psykers, which if anything would only enhance the effect.

It doesn`t work against everything however. Hold an aquila pendant up in front of a daemon and it recoils in disgust. 
But just try it on a tyranid or necron.:laugh:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'd posit that there are many ways in which prescience/omniscience have been depicted in science fiction... and not all of them indicate that the individual with this power necessarily has _control_ over what happens.

Consider Paul Atreides, from the "Dune" series, or Cassandra, from "The Iliad". Both were clearly prescient, but were unable to alter the will of the gods/destiny. In Cassandra's case, the gods even made other people ignore her warnings. Perhaps the Emperor knows, but is powerless to avoid the events happening, even as he struggles to counter them?.

Consider Dr. Manhattan, from "The Watchmen" for an even more dramatic effect: his is the experience of past, present and future, simultaneously, to include a psychological detachment from the impact of an event *until it happens*. Perhaps the Emperor, sum of all of Terra's ancient shamans, has such an inhuman perspective that he fights on even though he instinctively knows that he cannot win?

There are a number of reasons the Emperor may or may not know about events taking place, or may or may not be able to act on his knowledge.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Quite true. In the inheritance series the dragons are described as having unlimited power, but no control over their ability to use it. How much would that suck?

Can`t definitely say, but I don`t think that this is what happened in this scenario however... I still think it was faith that banished the daemon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance.


While that sounds logical, its still an assumption. The Emperor's conversation with Jaq Draco seems to suggest that the Emperor has somehow split his consciousness in order so that he can focus his attention on seperate events. In some cases part of himself is completely unaware of what other parts of himself are doing.

So while I will generally agree with you, its still plausable (if unlikely) that he may literally protect the entire species in every circumstance.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why are you so sure it was the Emperor's power she was utilising?
> 
> A widely used counter to this issue is the assumption that Keeler was some type of latent Psyker, and that her faith somehow manifested her own abilities. That, or her unshakeable faith bent the Warp to do her bidding (or what her faith dictated).


Thats my Favorite Answere right there. I can buy that.



Serpion5 said:


> It`s just faith. Daemons cannot stand faith, they prey on fear and unease, etc.
> 
> The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance. But he does act as a figure head for their beliefs and their faith. Grey knights are especially good at this as they are also psykers, which if anything would only enhance the effect.
> 
> ...


Thats possible too.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> While that sounds logical, its still an assumption. The Emperor's conversation with Jaq Draco seems to suggest that the Emperor has somehow split his consciousness in order so that he can focus his attention on seperate events. In some cases part of himself is completely unaware of what other parts of himself are doing.
> 
> So while I will generally agree with you, its still plausable (if unlikely) that he may literally protect the entire species in every circumstance.


Thats a good one also, the Emperor is Senile :taunt: I can sleep better at night now.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

There are no Gods in 40k , not the emporror or the chaos entitiies called gods. Since even they are just emergent consciousness of trillions of fragmented consciousnesses. In other words those individuals may who preform miracles like banishing Daemons are not so much using the power of the emperor, as making themselves similar enough to certain pockets of psychic energies, in order to draw on the power of a fragment of the warp that is completely made up of humanities positive elements (After all contless billions have dead completely in the service of the emperium) . In other words the emperor would not even necessarily even been involved directly, since Sindemann and Keeler may have actually been drawing on latent imperial psychic energy in the warp. 

All of this is connected to my interpretation of the metaphysics of the warp. After all Parils, and the dangerous they pose are from daemons attacking the entity drawing on some of their psychic essence. However if you are drawing on a section of the warp made up of almost identical psychic energy, then their is no threat of this. That's why sisters of battles miracles, and Daemonic Gifts don't require psychic tests.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I hate your avatar. I cant make heads or tails of it. :no:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> There are no Gods in 40k


That statement is equally true as it is false.

The truth is, the term 'god' in 40k is utterly and completely ambiguous, some entities are worshipped by countless billions and wield power to make them for all intents and purposes gods, but others would disagree with this classification regardless.

As Horus says in the opening Trilogy of the Heresy series, it doesn't matter if you call such entities gods, super xenos, or intelligences - it doesn't change the facts.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> There are no Gods in 40k , not the emporror or the chaos entitiies called gods. Since even they are just emergent consciousness of trillions of fragmented consciousnesses.


40K itself doesn't have a consistent definition of "god," but that doesn't mean they don't fit conventional definitions. For example:

god [god]
n (plural gods) 
1. *supernatural being*: one of a group of supernatural male beings in some religions, each of which *is worshiped* as the *personification or controller of some aspect of the universe* 

The chaos powers fit that bill almost perfectly. To say that they aren't gods is silly. They are immortal. They are ageless. They have supernatural abilities that defy our understanding of reality. They live in separate planes of existence, a spiritual realm. They are ethereal. They grant "boons" to mortals. They are objects of worship. They represent concepts. They do practically everything gods have been expected to do throughout history. 40K's definition of gods may be ambiguous, but considering they fit the modern definition of gods, and are called gods within the series, I think it's rather silly to not accept them as such.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> 40K itself doesn't have a consistent definition of "god," but that doesn't mean they don't fit conventional definitions. For example:
> 
> god [god]
> n (plural gods)
> ...


second k:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ambiguous in that their existence can be explained. They are the product of mortal psyche and their power is contained within that role. 

Ageless and immortal, yes. Worshipped and invincible yes. But because I consider a god to be all powerful. Because their power is limited, I cannot consider them true gods in accordance with my personal definition.

By that logic, neither can the emperor, hivemind, c`tan or any other entity be considered a true all powerful god. 

Stuff like this is up to personal definition and opinion. I don`t think it`s right to call it as silly for someone to see something differently.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

But like in reality there is polytheism where the gods are not all knowing all endgame beings. They are the aspects of a singular power split into multiple personalities. Think of the "gods" of 40k as one power not their own separate endgame version of god


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

The Greek Gods are a prime example of Gods without omnipotence.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

and there is my back up


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Like I said, opinion. I can see where you`re coming from.

The greek gods were described as higher beings, but could die and be killed just like humans, subject to their own character flaws and emotional strengths and weaknesses. I don`t know how educated you ar on the topic but I would not regard them as gods either. Personally, I use the word deity to describe them and such because it is a less ambiguous word.

And the deities in polytheism do not seem to fit the immortality argument you posted on another thread, Baltar. Why the backflip?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Basically, if you completed the reading of the thread, I had come across a fact that permits the use of the word "immortal" to fit both descriptions of immortality with equal correctness. In other words, technically, both sides of the argument were found to be considerable as immortal in terms of the definition - purely because the definition has no specific meaning (as there is no such thing as immortality other than as an abstract concept).

IE: I accepted that despite my opinion of what immortality is, all the other arguments for what it might be are equally as correct, simply because the word has no meaning (it only has a definition).

I would agree with you. The Greek gods are certainly a deity, and I would personally not consider them a god (other than for, perhaps, Zeus), and perhaps more likened to an angel, or something. Despite them being "godlike" in some of their abilities.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

well in all aspects they fit the definition of a "god" they may never be called one but they do fit the mold. They may be aspects of a more sinister force at work though.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@Baltar: I finished reading the thread, and I know you came around. The backflip I was referring to was your referral to the greek deities as gods, even though they do not fit all of the definitions that BBP gave. They could be born and could die, and so were not ageless. And I did refer to not knowing how educated either of you were on that particular topic. Sorry if it was vague.

@BBP: I concede that. I am working on my own belief that a real god should be omnipotent, and so none of them fit that role. Thus I will continue to call them deities. But I will not force that on anyone, especially since it is not "technically" accurate...


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

fair enough


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

:biggrin:

Dance, Stormtrooper, Dance!


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Like I said, opinion. I can see where you`re coming from.
> 
> The greek gods were described as higher beings, but could die and be killed just like humans, subject to their own character flaws and emotional strengths and weaknesses.


While the latter bits are definitely true, I can't recall any myth where the Greek gods were killed. The Norse ones, certainly, but not the Greeks.



> I don`t know how educated you ar on the topic but I would not regard them as gods either. Personally, I use the word deity to describe them and such because it is a less ambiguous word.


Less ambiguous? It means the exact same thing.

de·i·ty [d ətee]
(plural de·i·ties) 
n 
1. god or goddess: a god, goddess, or other being regarded as divine


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

well I see the chaos gods, emperor, C'tan, etc... as the appendages of a greater force. Suppose the warp isn't just where the demons dwell and it isn't just a means of faster transportation but that it's playing everyone for fools. Using each "deity" as an extension of its self in the material realm. So pretty much like the demons do but just on a MUCH more epic scale


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Blueberrypop said:


> well I see the chaos gods, emperor, C'tan, etc... as the appendages of a greater force. Suppose the warp isn't just where the demons dwell and it isn't just a means of faster transportation but that it's playing everyone for fools. Using each "deity" as an extension of its self in the material realm. So pretty much like the demons do but just on a MUCH more epic scale


Describing the warp as a sentient entity unto itself?

That I can believe as a god. But sadly, it`s only a theory.

BTW, the c`tan are not warp entities and each of them is a seperate being. The same can be posited for the emperor, but I`m not so sure on that.

@K3K: It was the greeks own belief. I recall no such instances either, but they certainly fought each other. To me that implies a chance of victory and one`s death.

I did not deny that the words have similar meanings. It depends on the source. As I said, this was personal preference.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

see here's the thing if the warp is acting on its own who can say what it really controls? There just might be a clash within the warp itself, what part gains control of the physical world.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That in itself limits the warp`s influence on the materium. It`s not called the realm of chaos for nothing... Infighting among the lesser deities could cause any number of hindrances to the overall ambition of Chaos itself.


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## Blueberrypop (Apr 27, 2010)

here's another point what if chaos is a parasite on the warp because we do not know WHAT the warp is. We just know demons come from there. What if the demons cause the warp to act sporadically. Suppose in its own dimension it is a deterrence between our galaxy and one that is even worse.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Blueberrypop said:


> see here's the thing if the warp is acting on its own who can say what it really controls? There just might be a clash within the warp itself, what part gains control of the physical world.


Isnt this what we call God and Satan? Yes, it kinda is.



Serpion5 said:


> That in itself limits the warp`s influence on the materium. It`s not called the realm of chaos for nothing... Infighting among the lesser deities could cause any number of hindrances to the overall ambition of Chaos itself.


Same as God becoming Man and Satan trying to fuck up his plan.
Or Adam and Eve being trick into eating the Apple by the Devil.
Or half of the Angels being cast down from heaven.
Sounds like infighting to me. Yet Christian/Muslim/Hebrew God is Omnipotent.



Serpion5 said:


> @Baltar: I finished reading the thread, and I know you came around. The backflip I was referring to was your referral to the greek deities as gods, even though they do not fit all of the definitions that BBP gave. They could be born and could die, and so were not ageless. And I did refer to not knowing how educated either of you were on that particular topic. Sorry if it was vague.
> 
> I concede that. I am working on my own belief that a real god should be omnipotent, and so none of them fit that role. Thus I will continue to call them deities. But I will not force that on anyone, especially since it is not "technically" accurate...


Thats your definition and thats perfectly fine. Very High Standards though. Zeus, Thor, Anubis .... your fired.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Blueberrypop said:


> here's another point what if chaos is a parasite on the warp


Chaos and the Warp are completely indivisible, they are one and the same thing.



Blueberrypop said:


> because we do not know WHAT the warp is.


Well in essence we do. The warp is the immaterial dimension, mortals may not be able to comprehend or grasp it, or understand its workings - but we know essentially what it is.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Isnt this what we call God and Satan? Yes, it kinda is.


The first book of the series implies that Satan had basically died out because of nonbelief. Or at least is nothing of the threat he used to be. An interesting concept, he could still exist somewhere in 40k, if someone remembers him.




Warlock in Training said:


> Same as God becoming Man and Satan trying to fuck up his plan.
> Or Adam and Eve being trick into eating the Apple by the Devil.
> Or half of the Angels being cast down from heaven.
> Sounds like infighting to me. Yet Christian/Muslim/Hebrew God is Omnipotent.


Ah, the whole God debate. Methinks the whole omnipotent thing is propaganda to secure followers. 




Warlock in Training said:


> Thats your definition and thats perfectly fine. Very High Standards though. Zeus, Thor, Anubis .... your fired.


Basically, I believe in a form of animism. Every spark of existence in the universe has a link beyond the physical, and the collective conscioussness is what I call "God." But obviously, it does not interact on the same level that any bible or other holy text would say. I view God as a concept, a presence, but not an entity. Anything less than absolute power is not worthy of the name in my view. Rereading this, it makes little sense but my belief is difficult to put into words unfortunately.


Zeus, Thor and Anubis will have to take a pay cut and a demotion. And their office doors have to be repainted to say "Deity."


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Ah yes, the warp... very interesting discussion.

This all reminds me of someone on relicnews forums who was in a discussion with another person about the nature of the warp. What really intrigued me was that he used the ocean as a metaphor to the warp. Now I know that the main metaphor for the warp is a river with a current, but hey... oceans have currents too.
He continued on that in theory that the chaos gods, on a grand scale, might pale in comparison to some other entity in the warp. The guy said that the realm of chaos is like a island in the ocean... and if that is true (metaphorically) then their must be other islands or even a continent out their (thus representing a much bigger power). Just some food for thought.


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