# Grey Knights Tesseract Labyrinths



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Some new lore may have explained where these mythical devices come from. For those who don't know what the Tesseract Labyrinths are i'll fill you in.

The Tesseract Labyrinths are arcane devices used by the Grey Knights to imprison Daemons, it is a prison they cannot escape from. So far only Lesser Daemons and one Greater Daemon have been bound, but they represent a hope that the Daemon threat can be contained. The Labyrinths come from an unnamed race, but apparantely relations with this race have deteriorated so the Grey Knights don't hold out hope of getting more.

Now that race has been revealed. Its the Necrons. The new Getting Started article for the Necrons mentions that the Necrons use the Tesseract Labyrinths to imprison the C'tan shards, and likely they are the creators of these devices.

So the Grey Knights get their Daemon prisons from the Necrons.

Opinions?


Lord of the Night


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

The Necrons could have gotten them from another race, also. Also, these devices would never really be able to "contain" the daemon threat, because there's no limit to the number of daemons.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

These are the devices the necrons used to imprison the c`tan. It is their design. They had the technology to allow the c`tan to manifest, it is no surprise they would figure out how to contain them. 

This is interesting to say the least. So we can assume that at one stage the necrons and Grey Knights were at least on some kind of trade level. At least Ward had the sense to make it clear that this is no longer the case. The tessarect labyrinths owned by the GK are finite, yet the necrons have control of this technology. 

I like this development.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It would make more sense and be more interesting imo if it was another alien race that came up with this technology.

How would the Necrons know anything about how to contain Warp entities which are different than C'tan shards, the latter being purely physical entities?

The pylons around Cadia apparently aren't so effective or perhaps the ravages of time are to blame but I would imagine closing an anomaly in the material ream (warp rifts) is different than when it comes to pure warp energy in a box/enclosed space.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Personally i view this as ward should stop writing fluff

I don't think the idea of GK and necrons trading makes much sense, It is however a possibility that the GKs/ inquisition stole them from unawoken tomb complexes, there were many stories in older fluff of deathwatch investigating tomb complexes, usually to plant a bomb but that by and by. Could it be that a number of necron artifacts were recovered in these, over time catalogued and then raids focused on the collection of the items, giving the I access to a finite number of prisons 

All records have of course since been lost, as is the imperiums way to lose ideas/ technology and records as they never make backups


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It would make more sense and be more interesting imo if it was another alien race that came up with this technology.
> 
> How would the Necrons know anything about how to contain Warp entities which are different than C'tan shards, the latter being purely physical entities?
> 
> The pylons around Cadia apparently aren't so effective or perhaps the ravages of time are to blame but I would imagine closing an anomaly in the material ream (warp rifts) is different than when it comes to pure warp energy in a box/enclosed space.


Even Warp energy does have some physical properties. For instance, a certain genome/brain structure is required for a mortal to have any tangible link to the warp. Across a galaxy of life forms many of which were enginered by a psyker heavy race, it is no surprise that the warp became so prevalent. The potential energy it contains is at a point of being limitless. 

Unfortunately this will come back to one of those debates over whether the Warp or Realspace came first (a matter none seem able to agree on) so I will simply say that in order for the warp to intersect Realspace certain physical requirements must be met. From this we can assume that it does have properties which can be measured and to a degree controlled (as evident by eldar, Imperium and tyranid methods). 

From this I think we can assume that the necrons would also have the ability to recalibrate or adjust the technology to suit. 



> Personally i view this as ward should stop writing fluff


Get over it. 



> I don't think the idea of GK and necrons trading makes much sense, It is however a possibility that the GKs/ inquisition stole them from unawoken tomb complexes, there were many stories in older fluff of deathwatch investigating tomb complexes, usually to plant a bomb but that by and by. Could it be that a number of necron artifacts were recovered in these, over time catalogued and then raids focused on the collection of the items, giving the I access to a finite number of prisons
> 
> All records have of course since been lost, as is the imperiums way to lose ideas/ technology and records as they never make backups


It is established in the GK codex that this technology was obtained via trade. It is also said that relations with said race have deteriorated to the point of hostility. So there is no fear of Necrons brofisting Grey Knights.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Talk about a retcon. When would this have happened? Have the Grey Knights only recently gotten the devices? In previous fluff, the Imperium only just recently (like in the last 500 years?) discovered the Necron. Maybe they purchased the devices from pirates who raided a Necron tomb?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Even Warp energy does have some physical properties. For instance, a certain genome/brain structure is required for a mortal to have any tangible link to the warp. Across a galaxy of life forms many of which were enginered by a psyker heavy race, it is no surprise that the warp became so prevalent. The potential energy it contains is at a point of being limitless.


Did you just make that up? :laugh:

What he was saying is that C'tan are not Warp Entities. So, how could the technology hold both types of beings? Now, I don't know much about C'tan fluff, but how in the world could they be warp entities? I thought they were the anti-warp beings of the universe.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maybe the grey knight versions are for holding warp entity and the Necrons ones for ctan is a different variant, why is it so hard to think about trading happening between races, 40k is set in reality and in reality races will trade,fight,eat and shit and do everything else they have to to survive. Personally i love the idea that races are capable of more interaction that just killing each other.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There could have been an intermediary.

Just because one race has them, and another race trades to get them doesn't provide any conclusive proof that this is the Necrons.

Hell, could be traded from the Demiurgs who escaped their destruction at the hands of the Hive Fleets by hiding on a Necron Tomb World, and they plundered them, trading to allow them to purchase new weaponry and defences, and now with the Demiurg protected economically and militarily by the Tau Empire somewhat , the Demiurg have called off trade negotiations with the Imperium who left them as bait during the Tyrannic Wars.

I should write fluff tbh.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Some random questions I thought of.

1) What did the Grey Knights, a chapter focused primarily on stopping daemonic incursions in realspace, possess that the Necrons would have wanted? 

I am thinking access to planets where remnants of their ancient technology lay buried underground, now lost to them or to their faction, without Imperial interference? 

If so, then the Grey Knights must surely of known that such a thing would strengthen the Necrons but they deemed their focus on their battle with Chaos was of more importance?

Could the unrepairable deterioration of the Golden Throne and with it the potential loss of the Emperor, the single most important being in the Imperium and the one responsible for holding an infinite amount of daemons at bay, of been a factor in their desperate decision?

2) What could have caused the deterioration of their relationship? Who or what was behind the breaking of the alliance?

3) Has there ever been a direct conflict between the Grey Knights and the Necrons? I can't recall any memorable battles.

4) Was the brief alliance between the Blood Angels and the Necrons a factor in the temporary trading partnership between the Grey Knights and the Necrons? The latter realizing that some forces of the Imperium were not impossible to reconcile with and seeing an opportunity to take advantage of?


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I lean twards the side saying that the grey knights didn't trade with the necrons. The thing we have that they would want is resources, and that's all that comes to mind. They can just take that stuff. I do agree that they got it from another source, a different minor race without a codex or even name. Perhaps it went something like: deathwatch found these cubes in a tomb world, found out what they do, and tried getting more however they could. The race had them, grey knights traded and it all went down from there. Maybe they didn't have anymore or just didn't want to give them anymmore! Hell, who knows. Maybe I'm so far off it isn't funny! But that's what I love about 40k best, its all in what you want to do or believe!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Seriously, what has the Imperium got that the necrons would need and just couldn't take? 

They can extinguish stars with their tech, and abhor all organic life in the universe. Why would they bother trading weapons with a backward race that spans most of the galaxy, one they will eventually do their damndest to eradicate? 

I'm not gonna get on the Matt Ward blame train, because as much as people like to think so, he's not the only one who writes fluff in the codecies, but this is yet another piece of bullshit from GW fluff writers. Why couldn't they just stick with it being something like a jokearo technology? We know they just randomly come up with the strangest, most deadly tech, why not keep it that simple?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

jaysen said:


> Did you just make that up? :laugh:
> 
> What he was saying is that C'tan are not Warp Entities. So, how could the technology hold both types of beings? Now, I don't know much about C'tan fluff, but how in the world could they be warp entities? I thought they were the anti-warp beings of the universe.


Er... no. I don`t need to make shit up to prove my point. Warp or not, daemons and c`tan are both energy. Different forms of energy, but still energy. 

Did you completely glance over my mention of the technology possibly being *adjusted* or *recalibrated*? 

I am well aware of what the c`tan are and aren`t made of. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Some random questions I thought of.
> 
> 1) What did the Grey Knights, a chapter focused primarily on stopping daemonic incursions in realspace, possess that the Necrons would have wanted?


Er, knowledge? Information on the state of the galaxy, data on potential current threats, as well as the realization that despite everything they share a very powerful common enemy? 



> Could the unrepairable deterioration of the Golden Throne and with it the potential loss of the Emperor, the single most important being in the Imperium and the one responsible for holding an infinite amount of daemons at bay, of been a factor in their desperate decision?


This is something I would not overlook either.



> 2) What could have caused the deterioration of their relationship? Who or what was behind the breaking of the alliance?


Hostilities between necrons and other Imperial factions. Mayhap the necrons didn`t make the distinction and hit delete on facebook soon after? 



> 3) Has there ever been a direct conflict between the Grey Knights and the Necrons? I can't recall any memorable battles.


Off the top of my head, no. 



> 4) Was the brief alliance between the Blood Angels and the Necrons a factor in the temporary trading partnership between the Grey Knights and the Necrons? The latter realizing that some forces of the Imperium were not impossible to reconcile with and seeing an opportunity to take advantage of?


The Silent King is attributed to being the ruler of the necron empire before the sleep. It says that he left the galaxy to atone for his sins, and there at some point he encountered the tyranids. Somehow seeing them for the threat they are, he returned to stir his legions into action. 

It is entirely possible that he simply allowed the Blood Angels to live because of how effective they proved able to fight the tyranids. It never once said they openly became allies, only that hostiities were put aside between them for the time being. There were no words of gratitude or congratulations, no handshake. They simply up and left each other afterward. We know now that necrons are not above respect. 

The BA story no longer seems ludicrous when the new nec fluff is accounted for. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> They can extinguish stars with their tech, and abhor all organic life in the universe. Why would they bother trading weapons with a backward race that spans most of the galaxy, one they will eventually do their damndest to eradicate?


They no longer abhor life to the extremes. They simply want their empire back. Various tomb worlds show differing levels of aggression depending on the ambition of their rulers. 



> I'm not gonna get on the Matt Ward blame train, because as much as people like to think so, he's not the only one who writes fluff in the codecies, but this is yet another piece of bullshit from GW fluff writers. Why couldn't they just stick with it being something like a jokearo technology? We know they just randomly come up with the strangest, most deadly tech, why not keep it that simple?


I think I understand the aim of some of the new fluff. This is my own theory, but I think GW seems to be trying to establish some kind of political influence. Hence we have more communication lines between races that weren`t there previously. Think about it. 

We`ve had necrons affiliated with BA and GK. 

We`ve had DE affiliated with Eldar. 

Prior to the current edition codexes, these things would never have happened. I`m sure there are more examples, and probably more to come.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Seriously, what has the Imperium got that the necrons would need and just couldn't take?
> 
> They can extinguish stars with their tech, and abhor all organic life in the universe. Why would they bother trading weapons with a backward race that spans most of the galaxy, one they will eventually do their damndest to eradicate?


The Necrons don't hate organic life, they simply want to extinguish their enemies, find a suitable race to transfer their minds into, then conquer the rest of the galaxy. 

I believe that the reason why they want to trade in weapons is because maybe the imperium, tau and various other races have some trinkets that the Necron's don't have that they may desire. Anti-demon weapons perhaps? We may not know that yet.



> I'm not gonna get on the Matt Ward blame train, because as much as people like to think so, he's not the only one who writes fluff in the codecies, but this is yet another piece of bullshit from GW fluff writers. Why couldn't they just stick with it being something like a jokearo technology? We know they just randomly come up with the strangest, most deadly tech, why not keep it that simple?


Saying the jokearo made these Tesseract Labyrinths is just plain silly. The Jokearo make their super speshul tech in needs of survival and curiosity, not because they have the desire to stop a universal force of destruction and save everyone from oblivion. Plus its pretty much proven that Necron tech is better than space monkey tech so it would make much more logical sense that the necrons made the labyrinths.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Er, knowledge? Information on the state of the galaxy, data on potential current threats, as well as the realization that despite everything they share a very powerful common enemy?


All things the Necrons could have obtained using their advanced technology or the myriad of races of the Wh40k universe, especially the ones more keen on record keeping like the Hrud for example who also aren't nearly as dangerous as xenos-hating Astartes.



Serpion5 said:


> Hostilities between necrons and other Imperial factions. Mayhap the necrons didn`t make the distinction and hit delete on facebook soon after?


The Necrons and Imperium have exchanged blows numerous times and so the Necrons were always hostile to humanity. And yet they traded with perhaps the most xenophobic warriors of the Imperium. 

Something major must have occurred for them to trade with them and something even bigger to have suddenly become hostile.



Serpion5 said:


> Off the top of my head, no.


More evidence that perhaps it was not something as simple as a sudden dispute but something else.



Serpion5 said:


> It is entirely possible that he simply allowed the Blood Angels to live because of how effective they proved able to fight the tyranids. It never once said they openly became allies, only that hostiities were put aside between them for the time being. There were no words of gratitude or congratulations, no handshake. They simply up and left each other afterward. We know now that necrons are not above respect.


The BA to my knowledge have never been noted as being extraordinary fighters against the Tyranids or nor is the Imperium for that matter. 

If anything the Necrons above all other races would be the most efficient at overpowering the Tyranids given their unsurpassed technology.



Serpion5 said:


> The BA story no longer seems ludicrous when the new nec fluff is accounted for.


From a ret-conning perspective, it would make more sense if the Necrons briefly teamed up with the Ultramarines given that their chapter has the most experience with the Tyranids.



ThatOtherGuy said:


> I believe that the reason why they want to trade in weapons is because maybe the imperium, tau and various other races have some trinkets that the Necron's don't have that they may desire. Anti-demon weapons perhaps? We may not know that yet.


Apparently the Necrons possess technology that is very efficient at containing the effects of the warp (Cadian pylons, Tesseract Labyrinths, etc.) while the Imperium's most powerful weapon against Chaos is fighting fire with fire, something the Necrons can never imitate given their lack of a soul.



ThatOtherGuy said:


> Saying the jokearo made these Tesseract Labyrinths is just plain silly. The Jokearo make their super speshul tech in needs of survival and curiosity, not because they have the desire to stop a universal force of destruction and save everyone from oblivion. Plus its pretty much proven that Necron tech is better than space monkey tech so it would make much more logical sense that the necrons made the labyrinths.


The Jokearo like the Orks, instinctively know how to create advanced forms of technology but they do not understand how it works but rather simply what it does. Both races were created by the Old Ones.

So I would argue that seeing as how the Old Ones were the Necrons ancient enemy, Jokearo technology should not be underestimated.

But no, nothing not even the technology of the Old Ones could compete with the Necrons hence why the Old Ones turned to creating pskyer races to aid them.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think this is poorly thought-out fluff

GK and Necrons trading...really?

Someone already pointed out that a much better idea would be for the Deathwatch to have _stolen_ the tech or something along those lines

maybe tesseract labyrinths are capable of imprisoning entities regardless of whether they're warp entities or physical entities...but the idea that the Necrons came up with devices capable of imprisoning daemons just smacks of sloppy writing, I mean Necrons have almost no history of warp interaction


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Labyrinths are capable of trapping energy, no matter how you dress it up in confusing passages regarding the insanity of the warp and how the immaterium doesn't obey the laws of physics, it's a dimension of energy.

Everything within that dimension is energy in one form or another, manipulated to create an illusion of matter? Yes. But energy it still is, and if it's energy then it can be trapped by a construct that is designed to restrain said force in all it's forms.

I wouldn't be surprised if Containment spells designed to hold Daemons didn't operate on a similar principle if in a different fashion.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

I think it more likely it came to them via one or more Ordo Xenos Inquisitors (who due to the nature of their path will tend to come into greater contact with xenos tech and weaponry.

The tesseract labyrinth is just based upon the principle of the hypercube (which is a four dimensional space). Not uncommon in SF literature at all (or television. The Tardis is a hypercube, for example).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So the Grey Knights are trafficking with the Necrons? By the comment that the relationship went sour means that at one point they were cool? Also it's official now that the Necrons are the masters of the C'tan? Okay well if that's the case the guys at the black library are idiots. What's the new fluff? The Necrons allowed the C'tan to encase them in automoton bodies and pretended to serve at their whims. They control the Night Bringer and the Void Dragon? With the retcon of the Emperor's badass backstory and now this I'm surprised the Space Marines aren't in fact those aliens from men in black that control human bodies like machines.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Some of these posts are bordering on ignorance. The C'tan and the Void dragon specifically are the reason the Imperium has the tech it has. He's what the Mechanicus is actually worshipping. Between the dark age of technology which with the time span seems to be the dragon's inspiritional time as well it seems that there should be nothing the imperium has they want. The Imperium cannot create any new technology and can barely replicate the ones it has. Innovation is dead. So of all the races to trade with I think the tau would make more sense.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Some of these posts are bordering on ignorance.


I`d noticed that. But some people seem to refuse being enlightened and cling to their own assumptions. 

What can ya do? :dunno:



EDIT: To clarify, you are judging the new fluff without having read it. Every major c`tan related event is still perfectly valid, even with the new fluff. 

A shard of a star god is still a shard of a _*Star God*_ and is just as capable of inflicting misery in a primitive Earth civilization before being vanquished by the Emperor. Or just as capable of decimating a small group of Ultramarines before escaping to feed on a nearby star. Or just as capable of making subtle machinations that trigger a sector wide war and cause ancient weapons to fall into more favourable possession. 

I have been reading the xenos lore of 40k (especially the necron related lore) for close to a decade now and I do not see any problems with this new fluff. Some people simply refuse to accept even the slightest change. Problem? :rtfm:


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Maybe the GK traded with a representative of the Necrons, such as a C'tan, most likely the Deceiver. Maybe they traded it the locations of tomb worlds, the locations of the Talismans of Vaul (The old cron codex mentions that the Deceiver managed to destroy most of them shortly after awakening), or other information that it wanted. In return perhaps it gave the GK something that would help fight daemons, reasoning that any demon neutralized by the GK was one that it wouldn't have to deal with. Now, the Necrons have trapped the C'tan in metahl bawkses, and no longer have an interest in making deals with the Imperium.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

It's not that I can't except the new fluff. The frustating shit is that they're changing the backstory of their plot instead of progressing it or even atempting to close loose plots such as Cypher or Epheral Stern. Even Marvel eventually gave you the truth of Wolverines origins after decades of bullshit. You don't have to change the story, just progress it. Kill the Emperor or make him become something else. Settle the Void Dragons imprisonment if he's going to get free. If your not going to use characters like Typhus,Lucius,Kharn,or the crapton others that you rarely here of kill them. Kill Cypher or let him complete whatever the hell he's going to do. If not then at least tell us what the hell he's trying to get at. Do something with Kaldor Draigo besides the bs he's doing now. Killing creatures in the warp does as much damage as uriniating on a california wildfire. You want to impress me with Draigo? Have him take on Abbaddon.All these open plots and instead of settling or progressing them what do they do? You change what's happened. That's what makes me upset.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> Maybe the grey knight versions are for holding warp entity and the Necrons ones for ctan is a different variant, why is it so hard to think about trading happening between races, 40k is set in reality and in reality races will trade,fight,eat and shit and do everything else they have to to survive. Personally i love the idea that races are capable of more interaction that just killing each other.


I agree. 



Deadeye776 said:


> Some of these posts are bordering on ignorance. The C'tan and the Void dragon specifically are the reason the Imperium has the tech it has. He's what the Mechanicus is actually worshipping. Between the dark age of technology which with the time span seems to be the dragon's inspiritional time as well it seems that there should be nothing the imperium has they want. The Imperium cannot create any new technology and can barely replicate the ones it has. Innovation is dead. So of all the races to trade with I think the tau would make more sense.


You're basing that on the assumption that the Necrons sought Imperial technology, which is obviously fairly unlikely. Assuming it was a simple economic/trading relationship, there are numerous things the Imperium/Grey Knights had or had access to that could have proved valuable to the Necrons. Information is the obvious example. This is a race that had just emerged after sixty million years of slumber, it needed to learn it's new surroundings. Or perhaps information/aid in regards to combating the forces of Chaos (who are much more prevelant than they were during the age of the Necrontyr Empire). It could have been anything really.

There could also have been many reasons for Grey Knight/Necron contact beyond that of simple trade pacts though. Who knows to what extent the Grey Knights are willing to go to protect the Imperium?



Deadeye776 said:


> It's not that I can't except the new fluff. The frustating shit is that they're changing the backstory of their plot instead of progressing it or even atempting to close loose plots such as Cypher or Epheral Stern. Even Marvel eventually gave you the truth of Wolverines origins after decades of bullshit. You don't have to change the story, just progress it. Kill the Emperor or make him become something else. Settle the Void Dragons imprisonment if he's going to get free. If your not going to use characters like Typhus,Lucius,Kharn,or the crapton others that you rarely here of kill them. Kill Cypher or let him complete whatever the hell he's going to do. If not then at least tell us what the hell he's trying to get at. Do something with Kaldor Draigo besides the bs he's doing now. Killing creatures in the warp does as much damage as uriniating on a california wildfire. You want to impress me with Draigo? Have him take on Abbaddon.All these open plots and instead of settling or progressing them what do they do? You change what's happened. That's what makes me upset.


I feel that is a different matter altogether than the one being discussed here (regarding the Necrons). 40k is a setting not a progressional storyline, it's always been that way.


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## unexpectedbill (Aug 10, 2011)

Vaz said:


> There could have been an intermediary.
> 
> Just because one race has them, and another race trades to get them doesn't provide any conclusive proof that this is the Necrons.
> 
> ...


As I play both tau and Grek Knights I find this fluff to be most plausible and +1 rep by the way. I also think the idea of rogue traders gathering them and trading with the Grey Knights to also be a plausible method.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I can't wrap my head how everyone is cool with this. This isn't the eldar that will screw you over but aren't innately evil just deceptive. These are the Necron. What kind of information could they want. Think about it. The Imperium is the dumbest race IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE, THEY DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING. They still don't grasp the exact concept of the warp, they don't know how to stop or where the tyranids came from, they can't fix the golden throne,the Emperor couldn't forsee his own son turning on him even though a cabal and Eldrad saw it coming. Tell me what information they could have that would be profitalble in a trade? Technology? We've already settled that argument that the Necrons are better off with their own stuff. Tactical knowledge? The imperium haven't truly defeated anyone as enemies just keep accumulating. To add to this the Imperium have the C'tan Star Dragon imprisoned on mars and don't even know it. How are these two forces getting along with that elephant in the room?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> there are numerous things the Imperium/Grey Knights had or had access to that could have proved valuable to the Necrons. Information is the obvious example. This is a race that had just emerged after sixty million years of slumber, it needed to learn it's new surroundings.


Why choose the most xenophobic race in the galaxy and the most devout practitioners of this mentality as opposed to less hostile races and ones who naturally keep records/information like the Hrud?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Or perhaps information/aid in regards to combating the forces of Chaos (who are much more prevelant than they were during the age of the Necrontyr Empire). It could have been anything really.


The Necrons seem to know what they are doing in regards to combating Chaos seeing as how they are behind two powerful anti-warp devices (Labyrinth, Cadian pylons) and perhaps even more.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I can't wrap my head how everyone is cool with this. This isn't the eldar that will screw you over but aren't innately evil just deceptive. These are the Necron. What kind of information could they want. Think about it. The Imperium is the dumbest race IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE, THEY DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING. They still don't grasp the exact concept of the warp, they don't know how to stop or where the tyranids came from, they can't fix the golden throne,the Emperor couldn't forsee his own son turning on him even though a cabal and Eldrad saw it coming. Tell me what information they could have that would be profitable in a trade? Technology? We've already settled that argument that the Necrons are better off with their own stuff. Tactical knowledge? The imperium haven't truly defeated anyone as enemies just keep accumulating. To add to this the Imperium have the C'tan Star Dragon imprisoned on mars and don't even know it. How are these two forces getting along with that elephant in the room?


You really need to take a step back and take a good look at it. If someone kidnapped you then put you in an airplane and dumped your ass in the middle of an ocean, would you be willing to part with your socks to find out what ocean it was? I would as that would give me a rough idea of where I was in the world. Would you part with your shirt to find out how far away from shore you were? You can keep your shirt and die or lose the damn thing and find out what direction you need to swim. Would you give up your jeans for a sailboat? I sure as hell would. If this is the current fluff then I think that it is fine as the TRUE Necron army rising would need to get their bearings and basically get a status report of the way of the galaxy as it is now. The tech that they gave up was mere trinkets to them but information is of vital importance.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I can't wrap my head how everyone is cool with this. This isn't the eldar that will screw you over but aren't innately evil just deceptive. These are the Necron. What kind of information could they want. Think about it. The Imperium is the dumbest race IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE, THEY DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING. They still don't grasp the exact concept of the warp, they don't know how to stop or where the tyranids came from, they can't fix the golden throne,the Emperor couldn't forsee his own son turning on him even though a cabal and Eldrad saw it coming. Tell me what information they could have that would be profitalble in a trade? Technology? We've already settled that argument that the Necrons are better off with their own stuff. Tactical knowledge? The imperium haven't truly defeated anyone as enemies just keep accumulating. To add to this the Imperium have the C'tan Star Dragon imprisoned on mars and don't even know it. How are these two forces getting along with that elephant in the room?


The Grey Knights, the Inquisition and the High lords of Terra are far more enlightened than the rest of the Imperium. We`re talking about factions here that bargain with xenos on a semi regular basis. The GK have had dealings with the eldar, Inquisitors have traded information with harlequins and the *High Lords are likely very aware of this* (I can`t confirm this bit, I am guessing). 

So while the GK and the big ][ are among the most devout of the Imperium`s servants, they are also the most willing to take extreme measures. Parley with aliens to fight daemons is sising with the lesser of two evils any day of the week. 

I will also *repeat* that the GK codex clearly states that diplomatic relations between the necrons and the GK have *long since deteriorated to the point of hostility*. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Why choose the most xenophobic race in the galaxy and the most devout practitioners of this mentality as opposed to less hostile races and ones who naturally keep records/information like the Hrud?


Likely because the Imperium is more prevalent and thus was encountered first? This is just me using logic here.  Also the necrons would have had little idea on the Imperium`s views when they made first contact, so initial good relations with GK may have been fluked.



> The Necrons seem to know what they are doing in regards to combating Chaos seeing as how they are behind two powerful anti-warp devices (Labyrinth, Cadian pylons) and perhaps even more.


True, but keep in mind the warp was not the playground of daemons back then that it has become now. The forces of Chaos have become far stronger than the necrons would have expected. It is no surprise that the necrons would seek to gather information.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Imperium is more prevalent but also barely in touch with a majority of it's worlds. It's a giant empire stretched too far and too thin.

The Necrons have encountered many races older than humanity without a doubt.

It doesen't make sense that out of all the races they could have spoken to, they chose humanity and on top of that, the most secretive soldiers of the Imperium. Just knowing about the existence of the Grey Knights points to these newly awakened Necrons knowing a great deal.

Again, the Necrons could easily have obtained the information they seek from any other race experienced with Chaos through trade relations or brute force. But they _chose _the Grey @#@#% Knights of all beings lol?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

It seems unlikely that the Necrons would purposely seek out the Grey Knights as well as vice versa so it only makes sense to assume that their first meeting was by sheer chance.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> It seems unlikely that the Necrons would purposely seek out the Grey Knights as well as vice versa so it only makes sense to assume that their first meeting was by sheer chance.


Stranger shit has happened.


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## Archlich (Apr 14, 2011)

The easiest explaination to me is that Deciver caused all of that.

He could pretend to be any race....

He just wanted to use some imperial simpletons to do his bidding (battling daemons)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The C'tan are jokes now unless all previous encounters with them by the necrons/various mortal races have been only partial manifestations of their true selves which doesn't seem likely and also because GW has exhausted their yearly usage of retcons imo.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I will also *repeat* that the GK codex clearly states that diplomatic relations between the necrons and the GK have *long since deteriorated to the point of hostility*.


This is actually one of the things I have a problem with. The Necrons are fairly recently awoken. Relationships between the GK and the source of this tech has 'long since' collapsed. Assuming that a hostile race like the Imperium is not eager to enter into trade alliances with unknown aliens then it must have taken some time for the Imperium and the Necrons to develop a trade alliance. Assuming that once made the GK would want to hold on to this trade alliance we can say that it would likely not have deteriorated overnight. To me, the process of creating a trade alliance that evolves to the point were you're handing off very powerful and rare tech and then have that alliance deteriorate to the current level of hostility takes a lot of time. More time that the Necrons have been awake in any kind of numbers I think. 



> Likely because the Imperium is more prevalent and thus was encountered first?


The Imperium is quite prevelant, however the GK are not. The Imperium would be unwilling to negotiate/trade with the xenos Necrons, however the GK might be. To me it seems less likely that the Necrons would randomly encounter the GK (who are based on only one world) than that they might randomly encounter some other race (who might have an empire of several dozen worlds). 



> Also the necrons would have had little idea on the Imperium`s views when they made first contact,


However the Imperium would not hesitate to make it's views clear. Also, bear in mind that the first recorded contact between the Necrons and the Imperium (unless this has been changed in the new codex) was when the Necrons slaughtered a shrine world, totally out of the blue. Doesn't really sound like a good foundation for a trade-alliance to me.



> True, but keep in mind the warp was not the playground of daemons back then that it has become now.


Except that it was. The emergence of daemons and the Enslavers was a least part of the reason why the Necrons went to sleep. They may not have expected the current power of the Gods but that's hardly something the Imperium could reveal to them (as the majority of the Imperium refuses to accept the Gods and it's doubtful that the GK would talk about it with random xenos).


I personnally don't have trouble accepting that the devices are Necron in origin or that they were acquired through trade. However I find it hard to believe that this trade was directly between the Necrons and the GK, given the difficulties with the probablility of them meeting, being willing to talk and having useful information for each other given the tightness of the timeline of this relationship.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Necrons have encountered many races older than humanity without a doubt.
> 
> It doesen't make sense that out of all the races they could have spoken to, they chose humanity and on top of that, the most secretive soldiers of the Imperium.


That is assuming that they have only had contact with the Imperium. No doubt they have been in contact with other species/civilisations/empires as well. But the Imperium is still the largest galactic empire as things stand, to an outsider (or one waking up after sixty million years) the Imperium (being the largest and seemingly most powerful empire in the galaxy) would be the obvious ones to go to for information (before attempting to destroy them obviously).



Malus Darkblade said:


> Just knowing about the existence of the Grey Knights points to these newly awakened Necrons knowing a great deal.


We don't know the specifics about the Grey Knight/Necron relationship, only that they were in contact and the Grey Knights acquired Tesseract Labyrinths from the Necrons. Who is to say the Grey Knights didn't make contact with the Necrons rather than the other way around? Who is say it wasn't an accidental/circumstantial meeting? It doesn't exactly point to the Necrons _"knowing a great deal [about secret Imperial organisations]"_ immediately.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Again, the Necrons could easily have obtained the information they seek from any other race experienced with Chaos through trade relations or brute force. But they _chose _the Grey @#@#% Knights of all beings lol?


Again, who said they _chose_ the Grey Knights out of everyone? We don't know the specifics. But also, the Grey Knights are one of the (if not _the_) most experienced and knowledgeable organisations of daemonhunters in the galaxy, if they wanted knowledge about Chaos the Grey Knights were probably the ones to go to.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The C'tan are jokes now unless all previous encounters with them by the necrons/various mortal races have been only partial manifestations of their true selves which doesn't seem likely and also because GW has exhausted their yearly usage of retcons imo.


The new C'tan lore is an improvement in my opinion and fits more in line with traditional 40k lore (à la not having near-omnipotent gods running around the galaxy instead of being incapacitated/weakened et cetera). Whilst we don't know the extent of it yet, it seems to be that all current encounters with the C'tan that we know of (First Black Crusade, Gothic War, Dragon of Mars, Pavonis, et cetera) were encounters with shards of the C'tan instead. It doesn't change the facts or lore at all in that regard, the shards are still immensely powerful entities. 



MEQinc said:


> This is actually one of the things I have a problem with. The Necrons are fairly recently awoken. Relationships between the GK and the source of this tech has 'long since' collapsed. Assuming that a hostile race like the Imperium is not eager to enter into trade alliances with unknown aliens then it must have taken some time for the Imperium and the Necrons to develop a trade alliance. Assuming that once made the GK would want to hold on to this trade alliance we can say that it would likely not have deteriorated overnight. To me, the process of creating a trade alliance that evolves to the point were you're handing off very powerful and rare tech and then have that alliance deteriorate to the current level of hostility takes a lot of time. More time that the Necrons have been awake in any kind of numbers I think.


Depends how you define _"long since"_ I guess. Some tomb worlds may have risen a lot sooner than others, and also not all Necrons have slumbered for sixty million years, the Triarch Praetorians for example didn't enter stasis at all.

A few hundred years is quite sufficient to match the description of the trade alliance given.

EDIT:
On a side note, is it actually explicity stated that the Tesseract Labyrinths were acquired via trade? Who is to say that the Tesseract Labyrinths weren't the reason for the deterioration into hostility of the relations between the Grey Knights and Necrons. Perhaps they had some form of non-hostile contact at first, then the Grey Knights stole the Tesseract Labyrinths (realising their potential) and that was the reason for the now open-hostility? Just a suggestion. But I can't access my _Codex: Grey Knights_ at the moment so I can't check the wording.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> EDIT:
> On a side note, is it actually explicity stated that the Tesseract Labyrinths were acquired via trade?


Nope, it doesn't mention how they were acquired. All it says is that relations with the creators have deteriorated to the point that it is unlikely that more labyrinths can be acquired.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

You're all assuming the Labyrinths are priceless artifacts. It's entirely possibly the Necrons are perfectly capable of manufacturing more of them and used only a few of them as the proverbial carrot-on-a-stick for the Inquisition. How much do you think the Inquisition would be willing to give up for "a few priceless artifacts" capable of containing daemons? And then how pissed off do you think they'd be once they figured out the Necrons had an endless supply of them and the ][ had given up far more than they were worth to their creators?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> You're all assuming the Labyrinths are priceless artifacts. It's entirely possibly the Necrons are perfectly capable of manufacturing more of them and used only a few of them as the proverbial carrot-on-a-stick for the Inquisition.


It seems highly unlikely that the Necrons would have huge quantities of these devices. Going on the assumption that they were created to capture the C'tan and then modified, why would the Necrons need more? All the C'tan have been captured in some way by this point (haven't they? I haven't actually read the fluff). Further, the Necrons hatred of the warp is primarily a result of the C'tan fearing what they cannot control and the Eldar pwning their robotic faces in the War in Heaven. That said trapping individual daemons seems like a really unnecessary thing for the Necrons to decide to do, especially when they have (or had) the ability to seperate the warp entirely. Which of those tech would you spend time working on?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> It seems highly unlikely that the Necrons would have huge quantities of these devices. Going on the assumption that they were created to capture the C'tan and then modified, why would the Necrons need more? All the C'tan have been captured in some way by this point (haven't they?





yakface said:


> Basically, the Necrons know they cannot fully destroy the C'Tan (only shatter them into shards) and are deathly afraid one of them will get their full power back together and take their revenge back on the Necrons for betraying them. So the Necrons are generally hunting down the shards and locking them in inter-dimensional prisons. However they somehow have the ability to force these shards to fight for them (presumably through the Necodermis the shards reside in)


From what yakface has said so far of the fluff(which is not all of it, mind you,) they are continuously hunting down shards, meaning they have not captured them all. The Void Dragon on Mars is one such instance.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

> On a side note, is it actually explicity stated that the Tesseract Labyrinths were acquired via trade? Who is to say that the Tesseract Labyrinths weren't the reason for the deterioration into hostility of the relations between the Grey Knights and Necrons. Perhaps they had some form of non-hostile contact at first, then the Grey Knights stole the Tesseract Labyrinths (realising their potential) and that was the reason for the now open-hostility? Just a suggestion. But I can't access my Codex: Grey Knights at the moment so I can't check the wording.


CotE, the answer is in the GK codex, Page 11. 



> Within the vault lie scores upon scores of tesseract labyrinths, fist sized cubes of an alien design that are capable of imprisoning beings of pure energy, among whose ranks Daemons can be counted.


This suggests that the GK own a decent number of such devices. 



> As things stand, the Grey Knights have yet to fully trust the technological solutions offered by the tesseract labyrinths - theirs is a calling weighted in sorcery rather than science. It is doubtful any that any Battle Brother truly understands the sciences behind the tesseract labyrinth. Arcane ritual has long replaced simple activation, to the point where the chants, sigils and pentagrams used to "awaken" the tesseract labyrinth now hold far more significance in the users mind than the simple pushbutton interface that engages the devices zero point reactor. It is unsurprising then, that the Chapters techmarines have been unable to duplicate the technology involved, *and as the Grey Knights relations with the mysterious creator race have deteriorated to the point of hostility*, it is likely these few labyrinths are the only ones the Grey Knights will ever have.


The text in bold is what points to the necrons being the creators, given that these devices seem to have appeared in the new nec codex as the same devices used to imprison the c`tan.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> From what yakface has said so far of the fluff(which is not all of it, mind you,) they are continuously hunting down shards, meaning they have not captured them all. The Void Dragon on Mars is one such instance.


So, the 'shards' are free aspects of the C'tan? I had thought that the 'shards' were what they were calling the various portions which had been trapped within Labrynths (basically going with the idea that a C'tan is too powerful to be bound in just one). So, does that mean that the C'tan can/do/have split themselves into smaller portions intentionally? Or is this as yet unknown?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> So, the 'shards' are free aspects of the C'tan? I had thought that the 'shards' were what they were calling the various portions which had been trapped within Labrynths (basically going with the idea that a C'tan is too powerful to be bound in just one). So, does that mean that the C'tan can/do/have split themselves into smaller portions intentionally? Or is this as yet unknown?


'Shards' are what you get when you blow up a C'tan in a Necrodermis body. The C'tan are pure materium energy, and as such cannot be destroyed. However, they are contained within the living metal bodies the Necrons made for them so they could interact with matter. The shards can reform back into a full C'tan if given the opportunity, so they have imprisoned each shard in a separate labrynth so they can't find each other to regenerate. C'tan are fairly large, and when they explode they split into thousands of tiny shards, each one holding a fraction of immense power over the materium. Each shard was given a full sized 'body' but has only a very small amount of the power of a full C'tan, making them useful on the battlefield but not strong enough to turn on the Necrons. Given the Necrons' fear of the shards reforming into a full C'tan, I'd say that the shards must have at least some sort of reforming instinct, giving them the possibility of reforming if someone were to allow that. Which would, of course, be a very bad idea.

Also, there are still some free shards roaming around, so they're hunting them down constantly. That was probably what the DE and Ultrasmurfs encountered(Shard of the Nightbringer.) Also the Void Dragon shard on Mars, and perhaps a shard of the Deceiver is running around making Pariahs, if they kept that part in the fluff at all. Unknown yet as to what exactly they did with those.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'll say it again - Who is to say that the mysterious race from which the Grey Knight traded to get the Labyrinths is the Necrons?

All that I can see is that the Necrons originally had them, then there's a mysterious race who then trade with the Grey Knights. That mysterious race could be anybody.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I'll say it again - Who is to say that the mysterious race from which the Grey Knight traded to get the Labyrinths is the Necrons?
> 
> All that I can see is that the Necrons originally had them, then there's a mysterious race who then trade with the Grey Knights. That mysterious race could be anybody.


This.

The Imperium didn't get C'Tan Phase Blades by trading them off Necrons.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> This.
> 
> The Imperium didn't get C'Tan Phase Blades by trading them off Necrons.


Maybe they just blew some Eldar up and took some stuff they had in their vaults? Unlikely, yes, but Eldar Craftworlds have been raided by Space Marines before, so who knows? As for the Labyrinths, unless it turns out to be Necrons, it's possible it was just some random xenos race that had plundered a dormant tomb world. Perhaps it was just a throw away line that was never meant to be looked at. Which, of course, means there will be 3 novels and a paragraph in a codex dedicated to it 10 years from now. :biggrin:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> 'Shards' are what you get when you blow up a C'tan in a Necrodermis body.


Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Though now I'm confused as to how the Labrinyth's could be adapted. After all necrodermis is a type of metal right? As in a solid piece of matter, not 'pure' energy like the C'tan themselves or daemons. So how can a piece of tech be designed to hold a piece of very powerful matter but then be adapted to hold a being of pure energy.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Though now I'm confused as to how the Labrinyth's could be adapted. After all necrodermis is a type of metal right? As in a solid piece of matter, not 'pure' energy like the C'tan themselves or daemons. So how can a piece of tech be designed to hold a piece of very powerful matter but then be adapted to hold a being of pure energy.


Both C'tan and Daemons have both energy and matter properties to be able to exist and manipulate things in the materium (C'tan could not actually do very much before they were given their metal bodies, which I guess they permanently bonded to or something, it's a tad vague.) I guess their technology either doesn't care if it's warp-based or not, or they are able to adapt the technology to take in both. Given that their technology is millions of years old and influenced by Star gods, it's not impossible to think they can do whatever they want whenever they want. They were hunting gods, after all, so I think a few measly daemons should be easy pickings.

Also, yes, there is some confusion over who controls what. It's said the C'tan are vulnerable to the Warp and are unable to comprehend it, much less exist in it. However, somehow Khaine blowing up the Nightbringer caused Nightbringer shards to enter and 'infect' Khaine, corrupting him. How exactly the Necrodermis was able to corrupt a Warp god, I have no idea. And if Khaine isn't a Warp god, how exactly did he fight Slaanesh, who can't exist in the materium? :wacko:

tl;dr F--kin' Labyrinths, how do they work?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Soulgazer, you have misinterpreted. 

C`tan consist of immense energy beings made manifest in necrodermis bodies. Their power is that of gods and during the war in heaven they fought alongside the necrons to destroy the Old Ones civilization. After this, the necrons rebelled and somehow managed to imprison these beings in pocket dimensions which are what became known as the tesseract labyrinths. 

When the Fluff refers to C`tan Shards, what it actually means is a tiny portion of the god`s energy being released into a metal body to fight for the necrons. At this reduced capacity, they are unable to wield the full extent of their power yet still pose enough of a threat that the necrons can use them as weapons while retaining control of them. 



As for Khain being able to directly battle the Nightbringer... This happened at a time when the Warp and Materium were closer and the Eldar Gods were able to manifest themselves so the confrontation between star god and warp god was a very possible scenario. Hints given in the excerpts from the War in Heaven fluff in the eldar codex point to the fact that Asuryan (the eldar king god) later sealed the warp from the materium forever. This accounts for why warp gods can no longer manifest in the real universe. 


@Vaz and Aramoro: You are both referring to old fluff which, as we`ve established, is being changed.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Soulgazer, you have misinterpreted.


It's entirely possible. Although, how you would catch a being made entirely of energy if it didn't want to be caught is confusing. I mean, can't it just move at the speed of light? The reason I supposed they were bound to the metal bodies was to give them some sort of hindrance that would slow them down. I know the Necrons can already detect and put the C'tan in the metal bodies, but that's when they're willing(or not whole enough to consider otherwise.) How do they manage to get them in the labyrinths if they're unwilling?

Daemons can be bound to the materium in several ways(Daemonhosts, etc.,) so it makes sense that you could make them sit still long enough to catch them. Do they do something similar to the C'tan? Dunno what techno-babble would be able to achieve that, but I'm sure they'll make it exist. Guess we'll have to find out in the new Codex.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

You know I can think of one thing the Imperium has access to, that the necrons would want. Access to the webway............................


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Why would the Necrons want access to the webway?


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## Erinyi (Jun 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Why would the Necrons want access to the webway?


They've been asleep for a shitload of time and really need some entertainment? Harlequin theatre and dance? 

On another note, any of you consider that a trade agreement probably wouldn't incorporate the entire Necron race, but rather just the forces of a particular Necron Overlord?

My point is, it would narrow the perspective quite a bit. There may be more for a specific legion to be interested in within a trade.

Bit tired, spellcheck is off, but you catch my drift.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Why would the Necrons want access to the webway?


I dunno, why would they want access to the Eldar races sanctuary? It couldn't possibly be to find the black library, or Commorah, and raze it to the ground. Or go craft world hunting, couldn't be any of those things. :read:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Because they despise the eldar race with a passion? 

And on the labyrinths`s workings, if they can detect and track different kinds of energy, it is no surprise to think they would be able to hunt down c`tan.


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## GrumpyJester (Dec 25, 2010)

It's pretty clear the labyrinths were a gift from the Necrons. The Grey Knight codex states they dealt with the labyrinths' creator race. They didn't steal them or found them on a black market: they were *gifts*. 

It makes sense too: the Necrons and Grey Knights definitely have a common enemy in the Daemons, and they're both pragmatic enough in their new codices.

Sure, you can add all kinds of uncertainties if you want to...maybe the Grey Knights just _thought_ they were dealing with the creator race. That just seems incredibly redundant though, driven by a desperate desire to not have any Necron - Grey Knight connections at all.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, since posting, I've found out that we now have Necron Mercenaries.

Go figure.


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## Cyric313 (Feb 18, 2010)

say whaaa?

say it aint so, say it aint so!


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

So according to the new Codex, not only did Trazyn the Infinite give Inquisitor Valeria her Hypercube as a gift, the Necrons also have access to the Webway via what they call Dolmen Gates. They use it to travel around the galaxy, conquer things, and beat up the Eldar living in there. Now we know! :so_happy:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Dear god I hope you're joking.

If not then, I... just don't know anymore.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Dear god I hope you're joking.
> 
> If not then, I... just don't know anymore.


Sorry to say, I am not joking. Many Tomb Worlds had their Dolmen Gates destroyed during the Great Sleep, and sometimes a world that has them is cut off due to shifts in the Webway or other random things. Sometimes the Eldar willingly cut off some of the Webway to deny it to the Necrons, but from what I read the more powerful dynasties use them often and reliably to do pretty much whatever they want.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Sorry to say, I am not joking. Many Tomb Worlds had their Dolmen Gates destroyed during the Great Sleep, and sometimes a world that has them is cut off due to shifts in the Webway or other random things. Sometimes the Eldar willingly cut off some of the Webway to deny it to the Necrons, but from what I read the more powerful dynasties use them often and reliably to do pretty much whatever they want.


So, in short, the Necrons are now just a different take of the Eldar. Whoopie...


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> So, in short, the Necrons are now just a different take of the Eldar. Whoopie...


And now you know why I was bitching about the C'tan being retconned, haha.

Eldar Tomb Kings.... IN SPAAAAACE!


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

SoulGazer said:


> Sorry to say, I am not joking. Many Tomb Worlds had their Dolmen Gates destroyed during the Great Sleep, and sometimes a world that has them is cut off due to shifts in the Webway or other random things. Sometimes the Eldar willingly cut off some of the Webway to deny it to the Necrons, but from what I read the more powerful dynasties use them often and reliably to do pretty much whatever they want.


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but your ABSOLUTELY postive these gates, utilize the Webway? I just want to make sure.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

mob16151 said:


> Sorry to beat a dead horse, but your ABSOLUTELY postive these gates, utilize the Webway? I just want to make sure.


That's what the Codex says.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> That's what the Codex says.


NERDRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thats a freaking horrible idea. This is the first piece of fluff ever, that makes me insnaely angry.:angry:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deal with it. The webway is expansive enough to harbour an entire civilization, connect another, and still have countless seemingly empty space left over. It`s always been this way. 

The necrons used the Old Ones greatest creation to bring about their demise and still use it today to spite the lesser races. I am fine with this. The eldar have sealed off the portions stolen by the necrons and the necrons are unable to rebuild any sections they lose. It`s a weakness, reliance on technology they cannot replicate.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

But then it takes away from the Necrons greatest strength being their supposedly unparalleled technology. 

Who knows how much of their technology is actually theirs and how much they stole.

Literally everything people have come to love about the Necrons is going away. I honestly don't see their appeal anymore.

They are just a cyborg faction of Eldar now, soulless and unable to wield the powers of the warp. But the latter probably will change.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Their tech is still unparallelled. 

They`ve lost the FTL they used to have, which imo was a bit overpowered. To say that they can simply go wherever they like whenever they please is giving them too much play considering what else they can do.

It was a sensible change if you ask me. They still have access to most of the galaxy at their whim, but more importantly they have been dealt a potential weakness. It prevents scenarios like a necron force being overwhelmed simply calling for aid which arrives from a neighbouring tomb half an hour later to save the day. 

It forces more strategic thinking, and allows for more interesting plot points.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Their tech is still unparallelled.


The biggest threat about a Necron force was their ability to strike anywhere instantly, bypass defenses and their ability to self-repair. Two of these abilities are only possible by relying on another race's technology.



Serpion5 said:


> They`ve lost the FTL they used to have, which imo was a bit overpowered. To say that they can simply go wherever they like whenever they please is giving them too much play considering what else they can do.


There is no difference between FTL and the Webway in terms of speed, they both teleport their users to their location instantly.

The only real difference is that the Webway utilizes the Warp indirectly while FTL relies on cold, hard science and nothing else.

Prior to their changes, the Necrons possessed FTL and still did not manage to bring the Imperium to its knees indicating that the Necrons simply could not compete with the might of the Imperium despite their technology and were not directed en masse (since certain Tomb Worlds are active, not all of them).

So why the change from FTL to the Webway, a technology created by their most hated enemy? Simply to spite them? So now the Necrons have changed from beings who hated all life to ones who enjoy spiting their long-dead enemies?



Serpion5 said:


> It was a sensible change if you ask me. They still have access to most of the galaxy at their whim, but more importantly they have been dealt a potential weakness. It prevents scenarios like a necron force being overwhelmed simply calling for aid which arrives from a neighbouring tomb half an hour later to save the day.


Yes they still can access most of the galaxy instantly but the main difference is that they are using the technology of another race when their whole selling point at first was their unrivaled technology that even the Old Ones could not compete with hence why they turned to creating Warp-using races since the Necrons could not deal with the Warp whatsoever.

Just the idea that the Necrons had to rely on an enemy's technology to get around just utterly *destroys *the notion of the Necrons being a technologically superior race to me. Clearly the Old Ones were vastly superior to them in every way.



Serpion5 said:


> It forces more strategic thinking, and allows for more interesting plot points.


I am talking about the fluff not the table-top.

How soon until we see the Necrons talking, all of them and not just a few? Or until they start using the Warp? Turning to Chaos? Befriending the Tau? It would seem nothing is stable anymore or too far fetched in regards to their fluff.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The biggest threat about a Necron force was their ability to strike anywhere instantly, bypass defenses and their ability to self-repair. Two of these abilities are only possible by relying on another race's technology.


Erm, no. The phase technology they use to bypass defenses is still theirs and only theirs. Teleportation is still very much necron dominated tech as well. You`re exaggerating, and your argument loses strength based on the fact that even though the webway is not their tech originally, it is still far beyond the understanding of most foes and thus perfectly adequate.



> There is no difference between FTL and the Webway in terms of speed, they both teleport their users to their location instantly.


FTL was actual physical travel unfettered by relativity. It was by no means ever a form of teleportation. 



> The only real difference is that the Webway utilizes the Warp indirectly while FTL relies on cold, hard science and nothing else.


Science which, if you`ve studied these things, proves FTL to be all but physically impossible in the terms that GW fluff portrayed it. Reducing them to a semi sorcerous method actually adds a touch of credibility. 



> Prior to their changes, the Necrons possessed FTL and still did not manage to bring the Imperium to its knees indicating that the Necrons simply could not compete with the might of the Imperium and were not directed en masse (since certain Tomb Worlds are active, not all of them).


Prior to this, the necrons were portrayed as only beginning to awaken. That is no longer the case. They are far more active than they were in the old edition and their apparent lack of progress can be attributed to a lack of unity rather than a lack of capability. Those necrons who are aggressive have proven to be exceedingly good at it in most cases.



> So why the change from FTL to the Webway, a technology created by their most hated enemy? Simply to spite them? So now the Necrons have changed from beings who hated all life to ones who enjoy spiting their enemies?


Well to be frank, yes. Necron royalty and noble courts are rife with internal rivalries and politics, and are not above putting their own petty desires before the greater good of their dynasty if of the mind to do so. Spite is by no means beyond their tact.



> Yes they still can access most of the galaxy instantly but the main difference is that they are using the technology of another race when their whole selling point at first was their unrivaled technology that even the Old Ones could not compete with hence why they turned to creating Warp-using races since the Necrons could not deal with the Warp whatsoever.


They are still the most advance race. The Old Ones bested the necrons at first thanks to the webway. So the necrons did the logical thing and harnessed the one thing that was keeping them from victory. Sound tactic if you ask me, pity the Imperium doesn`t think like this.



> Just the idea that the Necrons had to rely on an enemy's technology to get around just utterly *destroys *the notion of the Necrons being a technologically superior race to me. Clearly the Old Ones were vastly superior to them in every way.


And yet, which race is still around? 



> I am talking about the fluff not the table-top.


As was I, in the sense that necron commanders must be more careful in planning campaigns knowing that reinforcements can only be received from certain locations if called for. In what possible way could what I said be applied to TT and why would I bring it up here? 




On a semi related note, I would like to ask this: 

Am I the only member here who is actually *looking for positives* in this book rather than simply seizing incessantly upon *every little negative* and having a whiny bitch about it? Please tell me there is somebody else out there who can appreciate how much more character and refinement the new necrons have? PLEASE? :rtfm:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Am I the only member here who is actually *looking for positives* in this book rather than simply seizing incessantly upon *every little negative* and having a whiny bitch about it? Please tell me there is somebody else out there who can appreciate how much more character and refinement the new necrons have? PLEASE? :rtfm:


The new Necrons are in pretty much every single aspect considerably better than the old Necrons...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Did you not read about the recent discovery of these molecules/whatever that are apparently faster than the speed of light?

As for the rest of your post, not going to bother replying back and forth with you so whatever floats your boat. 

I used to love the Necrons but not to the point where I deny that they have become a joke of their former selves. It isn't just this forum that is pissed off about the new changes FYI.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Did you not read about the recent discovery of these molecules/whatever that are apparently faster than the speed of light?
> 
> As for the rest of your post, not going to bother replying back and forth with you so whatever floats your boat.
> 
> I used to love the Necrons but not to the point where I deny that they have become a joke of their former selves. It isn't just this forum that is pissed off about the new changes FYI.


Yes I have read about them. It was a thread on Heresy recently and I found the article interesting to say the least. But it does not break physics, it simply alters what we know. Faster than light may be possible, but how much faster and at what cost? 

And to be fair I can understand your viewpoint, but I cannot empathise. Nor do I care to listen to the complaints of those who refuse to focus on anything but the negatives. Change was needed. Everybody knew this. Then so many started crying when it happened because it wasn`t what they wanted. 

So I will finish by saying this. Get over it. And get over yourself. I am grateful that they were willing to give the necrons so much attention. Granted it`s not what I imagined it would be either (no pariahs?), but it certainly isn`t a "joke."


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Deal with it. The webway is expansive enough to harbour an entire civilization, connect another, and still have countless seemingly empty space left over. It`s always been this way.
> 
> The necrons used the Old Ones greatest creation to bring about their demise and still use it today to spite the lesser races. I am fine with this. The eldar have sealed off the portions stolen by the necrons and the necrons are unable to rebuild any sections they lose. It`s a weakness, reliance on technology they cannot replicate.


 
The point is this, if the necrons could/can access the Webway at will, why are the eldar still around as a viable species? How did Comorrah not get razed. When are the necrons going to come boiling out of the Imperial palace? How are the craftworlds still around?

Still the dumbest thing Ward has come up with.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It isn't just this forum that is pissed off about the new changes FYI.


No there are Forever Alones on a lot of websites (see #4 in particular).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

mob16151 said:


> The point is this, if the necrons could/can access the Webway at will, why are the eldar still around as a viable species? How did Comorrah not get razed. When are the necrons going to come boiling out of the Imperial palace? How are the craftworlds still around?
> 
> Still the dumbest thing Ward has come up with.


Because the eldar can control parts of the webway that the crons cannot? The sections used by necrons are largely isolated and restricted due to the eldar sealing those sections off from the rest. So while the necrons have access to limited sections that only link between themselves, the eldar managed to seal off threatened areas long ago. 

You didn`t read that I take it, rather just jumped on the first sentence and assumed the rest? Genius. icknose:


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Because the eldar can control parts of the webway that the crons cannot? The sections used by necrons are largely isolated and restricted due to the eldar sealing those sections off from the rest. So while the necrons have access to limited sections that only link between themselves, the eldar managed to seal off threatened areas long ago.
> 
> You didn`t read that I take it, rather just jumped on the first sentence and assumed the rest? Genius. icknose:


I believe it says the eldar have been able to seal off *some of the sections the necrons have breached.:smoke:*


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

mob16151 said:


> I believe it says the eldar have been able to seal off *some of the sections the necrons have breached.:smoke:*


It also says the Webway actively seals off the breaches made by the Necrons, and that it has caused the Necrons losses as a result.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Wusword77 said:


> It also says the Webway actively seals off the breaches made by the Necrons, and that it has caused the Necrons losses as a result.


The webway seals itself, or the Eldar seal it?
Because if it's the webway defending itself,thats cool.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I am generally a fan of the new direction the Necron lore has taken. The dynasties, revived character, and feel of the Necrons themselves is a big improvement. I even prefer what they've done with the C'tan.

What I remain mainly skeptical of is this whole webway business. I havn't been able to take a look at the codex yet so if its not too much effort could someone post up the exact wording of the prose relating to the Necron/webway interaction?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I am generally a fan of the new direction the Necron lore has taken. The dynasties, revived character, and feel of the Necrons themselves is a big improvement. I even prefer what they've done with the C'tan.
> 
> What I remain mainly skeptical of is this whole webway business. I havn't been able to take a look at the codex yet so if its not too much effort could someone post up the exact wording of the prose relating to the Necron/webway interaction?


the whole tidbit



> In the closing years of the War in Heaven the tides began to shift when the Necrons finally gained access to the webway. The C'Tan known as Nayadra'zatha, the Burning One, had long desired to carry his eldritch fires into that space beyond space, and showed the Necrons how to breach it's boundaries. Through a series of living stone portals known as the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons were finally able to turn the Old Ones' greatest weapon against them, vastly accelerating the end of the War in Heaven.
> 
> The portals offered by the Dolmen Gates are neither so stable, nor so controllable as the naturally occurring entrance to the webway. Indeed, in some curious fashion, the webway can detect when its environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attempts to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed. So, the Necrons must reach their destination quickly, lest the network itself bring about their destruction.
> 
> Aeons have passed since those times. The Old Ones are gone and the webway itself has become a tangled and broken labyrinth. Many Dolmen Gates were lost or abandoned during the time of the Great Sleep, and many more were destroyed by the Eldar. Those that remain grant access to but a small portion of the webway, much of that voluntarily sealed off by the Eldar to prevent further contamination. Yet the webway is immeasurably vast, and even these sundered skeins allow the necrons a mode of travel that far outpaces the younger races. It is well that this is so. As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation.


This can be found on Page 8 of the new Necron codex, bottom right.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That. In my view this is a very well placed piece of fluff. For while it allows the necrons to remain a considerable threat, it also means that they have a potentially fatal weakness. 

All of which adds to potential plot points.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

> Through a series of living stone portals known as the Dolmen Gates,


Minor (very minor) irritant here. Does this not sound exactly like a description of wraithbone? I.e. the tech that the eldar use to access and manipulate the webway (and other things). 



> Indeed, in some curious fashion, the webway can detect when its environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attempts to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed.


This is very cool. I've always liked the implications that the Webway is almost sentient.



> As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation.


This is the part that strikes me as a mistake. No longer are the Necrons the masters of their own destinies (despite the fact that they overthrew the C'tan). They are dependent on tech that they don't understand, that actively resists them and that at the best of times is hazardous to travel and links only certain locations.

They do not have control of their own travel technology. That is a joke. The race we are supposed to believe have the greatest tech (and until recently did) are dependent on tech that they don't understand and can't control. That's the Imperiums schtick, the webway is the Eldar's schtick. The Necrons *had* their own schtick, I'm not sure they do anymore.

Can the writers of GW not add to a race without forcing it to conform to other races roles? That is my beef with the new Necrons. I have no problem with the change to the C'tan, the addition of dynasties and politics, whatever. I have a problem with the fact that the Necron are lossing their own flavour in favour of borrowing other races.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> This is the part that strikes me as a mistake. No longer are the Necrons the masters of their own destinies (despite the fact that they overthrew the C'tan). They are dependent on tech that they don't understand, that actively resists them and that at the best of times is hazardous to travel and links only certain locations.
> 
> They do not have control of their own travel technology. That is a joke. The race we are supposed to believe have the greatest tech (and until recently did) are dependent on tech that they don't understand and can't control. That's the Imperiums schtick, the webway is the Eldar's schtick. The Necrons *had* their own schtick, I'm not sure they do anymore.
> 
> Can the writers of GW not add to a race without forcing it to conform to other races roles? That is my beef with the new Necrons. I have no problem with the change to the C'tan, the addition of dynasties and politics, whatever. I have a problem with the fact that the Necron are lossing their own flavour in favour of borrowing other races.


Well, there's nothing in the codex that says they no longer have the Hyperspace travel that was available. Their hyperdrive tech may not be anywhere near the speed of Warp travel, still requiring the use of stasis ships as it could take years to get from one star system to another.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Well, there's nothing in the codex that says they no longer have the Hyperspace travel that was available. Their hyperdrive tech may not be anywhere near the speed of Warp travel, still requiring the use of stasis ships as it could take years to get from one star system to another.


It's explictedly stated (in the quote provided on this page) that they are dependent on stasis ships if they can't use the webway. I realize that this gives them an alternate transport method but it doesn't change my beef. Statis ships move very slowly (relative to FTL transport obviously) making them completely useless for carrying out any kind of military plan. You might as well suggest that the Imperium doesn't depend on the warp for travel as say that the Necrons aren't dependent on the webway.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> It's explictedly stated (in the quote provided on this page) that they are dependent on stasis ships if they can't use the webway. I realize that this gives them an alternate transport method but it doesn't change my beef. Statis ships move very slowly (relative to FTL transport obviously) making them completely useless for carrying out any kind of military plan. You might as well suggest that the Imperium doesn't depend on the warp for travel as say that the Necrons aren't dependent on the webway.


Can you give me a published source on where GW/FW states that the Necrons have FTL travel that is similar to or surpasses star trek/star wars/generic Sci-Fi series type of FTL travel. The only thing I have found is that they have access to an Inertialess drive system, but that doesn't mean that their drives can get between star systems within hours or even days.

You would need to travel thousands of time the speed of light to make it from one star system to another in a matter of days in real space.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Can you give me a published source on where GW/FW states that the Necrons have FTL travel that is similar to or surpasses star trek/star wars/generic Sci-Fi series type of FTL travel.


_Dark Creed_ and/or possibly _Dark Disciple_ mention Necron ships moving at increadible rates. Battlefleet Gothic material also makes mention of Necron ships moving at rates faster than the eye/machine can perceive (ships 'appear' in a system and appear to be deccelerating). Etc.

It was pretty clearly established that the Necrons had non-warp based FTL travel before this codex came out.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I think
1) that after valaria got here Teresect from Trazyn, the techmarines replicated the technology (Replicated not understand) making a weaker but working version.

2)many tombworlds have been destroyed its entirely possible that they found a lot of them on an old and deactive tomb world.

3) its Matt Ward suck your thumb and live with it.

Edit: Old codex mentions FTL travel.


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## Geddon (Nov 5, 2011)

I find it extremely plausible that the Necrons traded or even gave the GK Tesseract Labyrinths. It states on pg7 of the Necron codex that they "do not share their secrets with lesser races & have set contingencies to prevent their supreme technologies from falling into the wrong hands". Obviously if the GK know how to opperate a TL then they were told & if they have a hold of some then they aren't supremely important to the Necrons, so expendable.

Also at mob16151, it explicitly says on page 10 in the little box about Dolmen Gates, "In some curious fashion, the webway can detect when it's environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate & swiftly attempts to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed". It also states that the Eldar have voluntarily blocked off many of the Dolmen Gate access points.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Geddon said:


> I find it extremely plausible that the Necrons traded or even gave the GK Tesseract Labyrinths. It states on pg7 of the Necron codex that they "do not share their secrets with lesser races & have set contingencies to prevent their supreme technologies from falling into the wrong hands".


Where exactly does this quote give you the idea that the Necrons would trade info and tech? Is it the part where it eplictly says they don't "share secrets"?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> _Dark Creed_ and/or possibly _Dark Disciple_ mention Necron ships moving at increadible rates. Battlefleet Gothic material also makes mention of Necron ships moving at rates faster than the eye/machine can perceive (ships 'appear' in a system and appear to be deccelerating). Etc.
> 
> It was pretty clearly established that the Necrons had non-warp based FTL travel before this codex came out.


Battlefleet Gothic mentions that Necrons use Ineritaless Drives to preform FTL travel. Those types of drives work by moving things through real space (as opposed to Hyperspace or Warp Space) at speeds that exceed Light speed.

Given that the nearest stars to earth are 4-5 light years from us (and we'll call that a galaxy average) you would need to travel hundreds or even thousands of times faster then light to get to planets in reasonable lengths of time (Days, as opposed to Months or Years).

If the Necrons can't do that their only option is to use stasis ships while it takes 4-5 years in between stops at Star systems.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> If the Necrons can't do that their only option is to use stasis ships while it takes 4-5 years in between stops at Star systems.


Which makes you wonder: If they don't have the Inertialess Drive anymore, what good are their ships? And what the hell was Imotekh doing on his ship when Helbrecht attacked him? :shok:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Given that the nearest stars to earth are 4-5 light years from us (and we'll call that a galaxy average) you would need to travel hundreds or even thousands of times faster then light to get to planets in reasonable lengths of time (Days, as opposed to Months or Years).
> 
> If the Necrons can't do that their only option is to use stasis ships while it takes 4-5 years in between stops at Star systems.


Okay... 
1) I'm not really sure what they point is that you're trying to make.
2) Necrons don't physically age and thus would only need statis chambers for increadibly long journeys (as in long enough to have an impact on their metal bodies), not for one lasting several years.
3) Imperial warp travel often takes months and even years, so I see no reason why Necron ships would have to be faster than this. 
4) The Necrons *used* to be able to do this. As in the Inerialess Drives *used* to push their ships sufficently fast. This is undeniable. I simply question the descision to remove this ability *completely* instead of limit it (possibly just by defining it to be slightly slower than warp travel, it's not like they ever gave speeds before).



SoulGazer said:


> Which makes you wonder: If they don't have the Inertialess Drive anymore, what good are their ships?


They aren't. That's the whole point. They now rely entirely on the webway. Which actively hates them and tries to keep them out. Worst. Mode. Of. Transport. Ever.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> They aren't. That's the whole point. They now rely entirely on the webway. Which actively hates them and tries to keep them out. Worst. Mode. Of. Transport. Ever.


Ok, but, how do they get around to invade planets? Just hope they have open Webway gates and go for it? No orbital cover, very few initial anti-air units, even fewer (perhaps even _zero_) anti-space weapons... How are these guys supposed to be a threat, again? How are they supposed to do anything at all?

See, this is why I think they have something else, they have to. At least some more limited version of the Intertialess Drive. Imotekh was on his flagship when Helbrecht attacked, they have to have some way of getting around otherwise it would have been pointless for him to be on there in the first place.

Unless of course their fleets are now just masses of Tyranid-like vessels of slow inevitability. That would make Necrons a combination of no less than 4 races, probably more. This is getting silly.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> See, this is why I think they have something else, they have to. At least some more limited version of the Intertialess Drive. Imotekh was on his flagship when Helbrecht attacked, they have to have some way of getting around otherwise it would have been pointless for him to be on there in there


It's specifically stated that they are limited to the webway and conventional statis ships.

However it is worth noting that there are portals into the webway located in space and capable of fitting massive space ships. I don't know whether the Necrons can open Dolmen gates of this size/nature but would assume they must in order for space ships to be a viable part of their armies.


Also, Tyranid fleets are capable of non-warp based FTL travel. So suck it, Necrons.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure Tyranid fleets hibernate because of how far away their target is and how slow they are otherwise they would starve.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty sure Tyranid fleets hibernate because of how far away their target is and how slow they are otherwise they would starve.


Well yeah, cause it still takes them months or even years to reach their target. But it would take literally millions of years for them to travel between star systems without FTL travel. Plus that's the Narwhal's (or whatever the beast is called) explicted purpose.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The thing is that we only see splinter fleets because the Tyranids sent them out as scouting parties while the main force is behind probably in the other galaxy trying to catch up.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> However it is worth noting that there are portals into the webway located in space and capable of fitting massive space ships. I don't know whether the Necrons can open Dolmen gates of this size/nature but would assume they must in order for space ships to be a viable part of their armies.


Yeah, and there are literally millions of these huge sized gates just lying around the galaxy, right?  The Necrons may be able to build them in places they've already conquered, but I'm talking about when they're invading other planets with no gates at all, never mind massive ones ships can get through.

Edit: Oh yes, in the Codex it also says that while Helbrecht was attacking Imotekh's fleet, Imotekh teleported onto an escort vessel and "made his escape." How, pray tell, would he have escaped with no FTL drive?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Okay...
> 1) I'm not really sure what they point is that you're trying to make.


The point I'm trying to make is that inertialess drive Drives don't automatically equate to a ship being able to move at the same speed or greater then Warp travel.


> 2) Necrons don't physically age and thus would only need statis chambers for increadibly long journeys (as in long enough to have an impact on their metal bodies), not for one lasting several years.


The ships could have been built and designed when the Necrons had physical bodies. Given that the Necrons had very short lifespans as in their physical bodies they may not view losing months/years in the same way we would as humans. If this is the case, there is no surprise that the Necrons would still use stasis ships.



> 3) Imperial warp travel often takes months and even years, so I see no reason why Necron ships would have to be faster than this.


Considering that Warp travel is not an exact science (not knowing what time period you'll come out in) Necron inertialess drive (which moves at a set speed through real space) has the potential to be faster then Warp travel. If the Warp is having an off day.


> 4) The Necrons *used* to be able to do this. As in the Inerialess Drives *used* to push their ships sufficently fast. This is undeniable. I simply question the descision to remove this ability *completely* instead of limit it (possibly just by defining it to be slightly slower than warp travel, it's not like they ever gave speeds before).


There's nothing that states that the Necrons use ships equipped with conventional drives to make interstellar trips. It simply states they use ships that travel slower hen Webway travel. Which isn't very surprising as normal Warp travel tends to be slower then Webway travel.

Plus the Necrons still took over the a large portion of the Galaxy and waged war against the Old Ones using the slower inertialess drive system.



> They aren't. That's the whole point. They now rely entirely on the webway. Which actively hates them and tries to keep them out. Worst. Mode. Of. Transport. Ever.


Not much different then the Warp for the Imperium then huh?


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## Geddon (Nov 5, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Where exactly does this quote give you the idea that the Necrons would trade info and tech? Is it the part where it eplictly says they don't "share secrets"?


Well in the Inset box on Trazyn the Infinites page, he willingly gives the Hyperstone Maze, which is a TL, to Inquisitor Valeria. If one Necron would do it, whats to say more don't. The Codex alludes to the fact that the Necrons aren't a unified race & they all work towards their own goals. Though, I'm not saying that they DID infact trade them to the GK, but it is plausible that some may have.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Geddon said:


> Well in the Inset box on Trazyn the Infinites page, he willingly gives the Hyperstone Maze, which is a TL, to Inquisitor Valeria. If one Necron would do it, whats to say more don't. The Codex alludes to the fact that the Necrons aren't a unified race & they all work towards their own goals. Though, I'm not saying that they DID infact trade them to the GK, but it is plausible that some may have.


That's not quite right though. Valeria tries to destroy Trazyn the Infinite with some Imperial Guard Regiments and because he's mad as a box of frogs he send her the Hyperstone Maze as a gift in return. This doesn't imply any kind of trade at all between humans and necrons. All it implies is that Trazyn is mad.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Yeah, and there are literally millions of these huge sized gates just lying around the galaxy, right?  The Necrons may be able to build them in places they've already conquered, but I'm talking about when they're invading other planets with no gates at all, never mind massive ones ships can get through.


Well apparently the Necrons are no longer able to invade such planets. This doesn't really appear to have impacted the Eldar however so maybe it's not that big a deal. 



> Edit: Oh yes, in the Codex it also says that while Helbrecht was attacking Imotekh's fleet, Imotekh teleported onto an escort vessel and "made his escape." How, pray tell, would he have escaped with no FTL drive?


Three ways:
1) He had a Dolmen gate floating out in space that no one noticed.
2) He somehow accessed a webway gate that the Eldar had left there.
3) The writer forgot how the race worked/wrote this before they changed the transport mode.



Wusword77 said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that inertialess drive Drives don't automatically equate to a ship being able to move at the same speed or greater then Warp travel.


 This, and


> Considering that Warp travel is not an exact science (not knowing what time period you'll come out in) Necron inertialess drive (which moves at a set speed through real space) has the potential to be faster then Warp travel. If the Warp is having an off day.


Are pretty much contradictory. Plus I never stated that the Necrons necessary travelled faster than warp travel, and pretty much speculated that it would be roughly the same.



> The ships could have been built and designed when the Necrons had physical bodies. Given that the Necrons had very short lifespans as in their physical bodies they may not view losing months/years in the same way we would as humans. If this is the case, there is no surprise that the Necrons would still use stasis ships.


Except that having such stasis chambers would be a massive drain on resources (space amongst them) so there is no reason to maintain a design which is so fundamentally obsolete.



> There's nothing that states that the Necrons use ships equipped with conventional drives to make interstellar trips. It simply states they use ships that travel slower hen Webway travel.


It calls their other means of transport 'ponderously slow' which is a very clear divergence from the 'blinding speed' they used to be capable of. It doesn't really matter if they still have Inertialess Drives as they have been removed as a viable means of transport.



> Which isn't very surprising as normal Warp travel tends to be slower then Webway travel.


This is simply false. The webway is vastly more reliable than the warp, it has never been suggested to be faster. Given that it is a twisted maze that no one can properly map out (as opposed to roughly straight line travel in the warp) and is often navigated by slow ships and even foot soldiers, I see no reason to believe that it is faster.



> Not much different then the Warp for the Imperium then huh?


Actually quite different. The warp does not and cannot seal parts of itself away from humanity. Further the warp connects to every point in the galaxy (at least) and can thus be used to get anywhere from anywhere, the webway cannot. 

The Imperium is dependent on a high-risk-high-reward mode of transport, the Eldar use a low-risk-lower-reward mode of transport. By trying to steal the Eldars mode of transport the Necron have wound up with a high-risk-low-reward mode of transport. Giving them the least access to the galaxy, low(ish) speeds and the risk of never arriving at all. No other race boasts a mode of galactic transport so bad.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Bad writing, huzzah. I'm not even gonna blame Ward for this one, he usually makes things super overpowered, not underpowered and useless. I'm gonna say this one was ordered by GW to make the Necrons seem like less of a threat than Chaos for 6th. Meh, they'll retcon this retcon later in a book or something, I'm sure.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> This, and
> 
> Are pretty much contradictory. Plus I never stated that the Necrons necessary travelled faster than warp travel, and pretty much speculated that it would be roughly the same.


At the same time they aren't though. There is plenty of fluff about ships entering the Warp for normal travel and not emerging until 10, 100, or even 1000 years later. Plus they could never be roughly the same for the exact same reason. I also only stated that the Necrons tech has the potential to be faster, not that it was.



> Except that having such stasis chambers would be a massive drain on resources (space amongst them) so there is no reason to maintain a design which is so fundamentally obsolete.


Would having the stasis chambers be any more of a resource drain than decommissioning the ship to remove an obsolete component? I think it would be less of a drain just to leave it.



> It calls their other means of transport 'ponderously slow' which is a very clear divergence from the 'blinding speed' they used to be capable of. It doesn't really matter if they still have Inertialess Drives as they have been removed as a viable means of transport.


The only time I see a reference to "blinding speed" is when people see the ships moving in a navel engagement. The claim on "ponderously slow" is made when discussing the difference in speed compared to the Webway, two very different scenarios.



> This is simply false. The webway is vastly more reliable than the warp, it has never been suggested to be faster. Given that it is a twisted maze that no one can properly map out (as opposed to roughly straight line travel in the warp) and is often navigated by slow ships and even foot soldiers, I see no reason to believe that it is faster.


I fail to see how it could be a slow means of travel between points if foot soldiers are able to march from one point to another. A commander would only let them do that if they could get to the point in a reasonable length of time so it wouldn't effect the outcome of a battle plan.



> Actually quite different. The warp does not and cannot seal parts of itself away from humanity. Further the warp connects to every point in the galaxy (at least) and can thus be used to get anywhere from anywhere, the webway cannot.


Except the Warp actively tries to kill/destroy/corrupt whatever enters it. Plus Warp travel is not the surest route, which explains how Humanity has planets all over the galaxy but limited numbers of planets in truly close proximity to each other.



> The Imperium is dependent on a high-risk-high-reward mode of transport, the Eldar use a low-risk-lower-reward mode of transport. By trying to steal the Eldars mode of transport the Necron have wound up with a high-risk-low-reward mode of transport. Giving them the least access to the galaxy, low(ish) speeds and the risk of never arriving at all. No other race boasts a mode of galactic transport so bad.


I wouldn't call the Webway a low-risk-lower-reward compared to standard Warp travel. The webway offers a high reward for the low risk, in that the Eldar are able to get almost anywhere in the Galaxy quickly, safely, and undetected through it's use.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Plus they could never be roughly the same for the exact same reason.


I meant to imply that the average travel time would be the same, with Warp travel simply having more significant outliers.



> Would having the stasis chambers be any more of a resource drain than decommissioning the ship to remove an obsolete component?


Um, yeah. The repeated use of the ships over the past several billion years (the Necrons are implied as not having been as dormant as previously thought right?) would easily cause a bigger waste of resources.

Plus the Necrons have pretty much completely revolutionized their technology since they gained metal bodies. I would find it extremely odd if they had not altered their ships.



> I fail to see how it could be a slow means of travel between points if foot soldiers are able to march from one point to another. A commander would only let them do that if they could get to the point in a reasonable length of time so it wouldn't effect the outcome of a battle plan.


Hmmm seems I didn't make my point properly. The speed of travel within the webway is limited to the speed of the vehicle/device travelling through it, which will be lower than even a conventional spacecraft given that most of the tunnels are restrictive in size. Adding in the fact that you may not be certain of the path to your destination and that your travel is unlikely to be a straight line (thus adding distance) it seems likely to me the webway is slower than conventional warp travel.



> Except the Warp actively tries to kill/destroy/corrupt whatever enters it.


This is very true. It's why I said 'seal parts of itself off'. I was not referencing the dangers involved in the travel but rather the limits it places on where you can travel.



> Plus Warp travel is not the surest route, which explains how Humanity has planets all over the galaxy but limited numbers of planets in truly close proximity to each other


Right, this is the one advantage the webway has. I have never denied this. My position is that the tradeoff of being limited only to places you've been to previously and established gates at, further compounded by the webway actively sealing off many of these places, is a bigger drawback than the reliablity. Especially when compared to the Necrons previous mode of transit which was seemingly perfectly reliable and much faster.



> I wouldn't call the Webway a low-risk-lower-reward compared to standard Warp travel.


When I was talking about reward I was referencing speed. The warp provides the fastest means off travel with the (admittedly large) caveat of possibly being horribly murdered or sent years off course. The webway conversely offers slower but more reliable transit.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Until BFG Necrons get an update, i'm still zooming around in my FTL inertialess tomb ships. Lalalalala...


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