# Improving Vanguard



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Now there is one problem with the 'Heroic Intervention'. In order to the get the charge you have to get within six inches of the enemy unit. This puts you close enough to scatter and lose an expensive unit. Now a Locater Beacon makes this almost 100% reliable but limits their kill range. Would adding Shrike make the, realiable enough? It will put them futher away from the unit but you wont know your fleet move is. What do you all think about it?


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Shrike seems to be the best way to go...and besides you can get pretty damn close with pods, thats how i see it at least


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

But then you cant assualt. Or did i misread it?


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

no, you read it right. they can only HI if equipped with jump packs. I read them closly to see how gate of infinety work with them.
It dosn't


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Now there is one problem with the 'Heroic Intervention'. In order to the get the charge you have to get within six inches of the enemy unit. This puts you close enough to scatter and lose an expensive unit. Now a Locater Beacon makes this almost 100% reliable but limits their kill range. Would adding Shrike make the, realiable enough? It will put them futher away from the unit but you wont know your fleet move is. What do you all think about it?


Simple.

Best Tactic with a Vanguard squad:

Take Shrike

Attach him to Vanguard.

Elect to Infiltrate/Outflank.

When it's your turn to Infiltrate the unit, declare they will be held in reserve as an Outflanking unit.

When they arrive from reserves, they will get to move from the short edge 12", Fleet D6", and charge 6"

That's a 19-24" reach, shooting and assaulting before your enemy can even lift a finger...

You be able to crash home a full strength charge without losing any men on the way in.

I myself prefer terminators, not as much reach, but ridiculously more survivable in the enemy's next shooting phase...


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

infriltrate some scouts with a beacon and have them all with those cloak thingys. Try and infriltrate them as close to 12" as possible. then do it...


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> infriltrate some scouts with a beacon and have them all with those cloak thingys. Try and infriltrate them as close to 12" as possible. then do it...


locator beacon can be taken by scout bikes, not foot-slogging scouts- they can take teleporter homer- good only for terminators and other teleporters.so, dropping a pod with a beacon near the intended-to-be-assaulted enemy unit, or get some bike scouts (I've hears this are going to be good).


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

HI only works if you DS via JPs, and it does NOT work if you have an IC attached. 

Frankly, I say fuck it. Vanguard are too expensive to be practical with their 10 point jump packs (Seriously...10?! When they charge like 2 on assault troops?), and HI is nice, but it ain't all that.

Drop the packs, take them on foot, with Shrike attached. Infiltrate someplace useful, preferably out of direct LOS so you can come in at 13", then fleet around and go for a first turn assault powerfist enema, just to get the game off on the right foot. After that, they can fleet so they make up for some of the lost mobility that stems from losing the JPs (but aren't hampered by being unable to use terrain without fear of dying), either keep Shrike or have him detach and fly over to a unit that needs his assault punch more.

Back them up with some podding sternguard and/or Ironclads

If you are going the homing beacon route, it's only for Scout Bikers and Drop Pods, but generally you want to pod in shooting assets, which means assault assets homing in on their pod will likely land out of range.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The only advantage vanguard have over normal assault marines is HI. They have an extra attack, but they cost so much more that you end up getting considerably more attacks per point if you buy (more) assault marines. You could go mad with extra weapons if you like spending points, but that just makes it all the more impossible to get your points back against a good opponent. Shrike is better with an assault squad in my opinion.

You can use a beacon to make them more accurate if you want, but this seems very strange to me. Surely the whole point of HI is that you are charging somewhere that is difficult for your guys to reach? If you are able to get conventional guys with a beacon within 12" of the enemy to guide in your vanguards, why not just put some other unit there instead, and assault with them?

I might be possible to argue for putting vanguards in a land raider of some kind and charging with them. Assault termies would probably do the job at least as well though.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I can't belive how expensive Vanguard Vets are. With Jump Packs, 30 points per model is fucking sickeningly overpriced.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Exactly, and that's before you buy any weapons for them.

Blood angels Veteran Assault squads are actually *cheaper* (And remember, you're buying a 25 point DC marine too, If you subtract that it's even cheaper), with more effective weapon selections. Sure, not everyone can have a special, but 3 special melee weapons and 2 assault weapons is plenty brutal.

If you're just going to slap them in a raider then buy assault termies instead. 40 points for the same base stats, a 2+/3++ and a thunder hammer.

The only real reason to take VV is the HI, unless you just want to load up on special melee weapons. 

But because the JPs required for HI are so insanely expensive, it's not practical to take them...which brings us back to why you should bother if they won't have HI

Honestly, VV without JPs are playable with Shrike leading them, so you can get a first turn charge with your megadeath unit. Otherwise they're just not worth it. Deploying them any other way just makes them look like weak assault terms.

VV with PW = 35 points
Assault Term with LC or TH/SS = 40 points


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

DC are 5 points more than that but still great point. My VAS went up against a VV sqaud and wiped them out for considerably less points.... they fall just like normal marines so DSing them into the firing lines of some armies hoping to get HI will only get them ripped apoart if they don't get it. And if you didn't put in special weapons into the squad then they'd have only a slightly better chance than basic marines. They're just not worth it...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

If you do the math, you're paying 25 points extra for the VAS (and most other squads) for that DC marine, so you get a 5 point 'discount'...wooo


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## Red Geist (Sep 18, 2008)

Not as expensive as Grey Knights, thier points cost will stupify me till the day that the Inquisition codex arrives.

The Vanguard are awesome, no doubt about it. You just have to use them against the proper army and in higher point games. In a 2000 point list, I take an Epistolary with a five man Assault Squad, a Vanguard Squad, a Chaplain with a Bike Squad, and any assortment of troops and vehicles. The two squads attached to the HQ units can support the Vanguard rather nicely (if needed) while the other squads provide fire support. Vanguard are good against armies that are not meant for combat, allowing you to deep strike, assault, and move from combat to combat with little struggle. Tau, Eldar, IG, Battle Sisters, and maybe some Marines usually fall into this category.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Galahad said:


> If you do the math, you're paying 25 points extra for the VAS (and most other squads) for that DC marine, so you get a 5 point 'discount'...wooo


Didn't know that actually.... I only did it with tac. squads....

Still any BA non troop assault unit will destroy them. DC, veteran assault squads, honour guards, they all are better and usually cheaper than vanguard....


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

And they allow greater tactical flexibility. With JP VVs, if you don't deep strike you're wasting a shit ton of points, so you always use them the same way, every game. At least with the VAS you;re not losing out if you use them differently


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

not true jump packs shrike multible units to assualt against guard assualting three squads spread out first turn would suck for enemy and you can aslong as you are in coherency i love new rules


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Blood Angel Veteran Assaulters and Honor Guards are better for their points than Vanguard for one reason: the entire Blood Angel army is pretty decent in close combat. Codex Marines however are a weaker close combat army so they need to pay through the nose for units with excellent assault ability.

Personally, I like Vanguard. I submit that they're not the best choice, but they are one of the few units that can go toe-to-toe with some of the more powerful units in other armies. Besides, I don't really like Terminators. Jump packers ftw!


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## D3mon (Jul 31, 2008)

i played with them the other day for the first time and i was hopeing for something amazing to happen but the scatter went in the totally wrong direction whitch left me satnding practically in the middle of the feild which also meant i got cained for being stupid whitch also lost me soooo many points whitch could have been a ton more usefull!! Im not giving up on them just yet but i robaly will soon!! Just plain and simply too expensive!!


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## gblai6 (Feb 20, 2008)

To add to Galahad's "add Shrike" theory. Instead of adding him to Vanguard, wack him in with a normal squad of assault marines. The way line of sight is these days I think it's usually very difficult to get closer than 18" with the infiltrate. This way you've got the squad going 12", fleet a minimum of 1" and assault 6". Unless terrain gets in the way of any of that you're assaulting in turn one (if you're going first).


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> I can't belive how expensive Vanguard Vets are. With Jump Packs, 30 points per model is fucking sickeningly overpriced.


And the wargear to make them appreciably better than assault marines hikes it even further. :biggrin:

Sternguard for me, thankee kindly.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I was looking over the codex, just got it, the other day. I've noticed that everyone is comparing them to Assault troops. I understand that they are a FA choice, but I got to thinking, and started to compare them to a Tact squad.

They start at a 35 point difference, Tact being cheaper.
Sgt gets a PW changing that to a 20 point difference
Each Vanguard marine gets a bonus to the A and Ld scores, while this does not make up the difference the points reflect the ability to get access to some really neat things.
There is a 4 pt spread on purchasing the extra marines 2pts per A and Ld bonus.

So right now all the Vanguard is, is a CC equiped Tact squad that cannot hold objectives
Taking a rhino, getting a few of the extra CC weapon options really puts a "line" unit that most people are not expecting in a "normal" marine force. In the long run (please excuse if I'm getting this wrong) it likens itself to a SW Grey Hunter pack

Now I do understand that in order to use the special rule you need the jetpacks, but that does make the unit extremely expensive to use a rule that may/may not work properly.

In reality the role they play would be not that much different from a Veteran CC squad from 4th ed.


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