# Anyone Else Find Primarchs.......OP?



## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Not sure about the other ones, but I just finished reading Fulgrim, and it left me with sort of a hate towards Graham McNeil.

Maybe it's just my love of Eldar making me bias'd, but it seems to me that essentially tackling a Wraithlord to the ground (when they're supposed to be hundreds of feet tall in some cases) and then somehow pinning it down, smashing its face in, cutting off its arms as it tries to push you off or get up, ripping out the spirit stone, and then crushing it (when it's supposed to be unbreakable by almost everything).

He then goes on to smash a few tanks with a sword, behead some banshees, toss some other stuff around, and eventually choking the Avatar to death with his barehands...

To me this seems a bit unpractical, even for a Primarch, mainly because I don't see how you could pin down a Wraithlord and smash it to bits, and because I don't think you can choke a molten ball of iron to death....nevermind the flames which are supposed to be all-consuming.

Input anyone?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think they grow Wraithlords that big. Maybe a couple dozen of feet? Even titans are not more than a couple hundred feet tall at the tallest. Much less a Wraithlord.

Anyway, not only is he a Primarch, but he has been gifted powers by the daemon within his sword.

Fulgrim was also considered amongst the finest warriors of all the Emperor's sons.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

Keep in mind that they're supposed to be superhuman. 

I can see some of your wrath but honestly if he's been given the gene-seed AND powered by a demon, plus considered one of the best warriors...well then perhaps it's not that far fetched. no? 

It'd be different if all the Primarchs were that way but this is a one off


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

From what I remember reading Fulgrim . He had that demon sword but I'm not sure if he actually had any demon power..not yet that is. The sword was slowly possessing him and it took complete control of him after his final battle with Ferrus. 

I have to re-read that battle passage...again when it comes to the power level of a primarch it depends on the author sometimes. 

It's kind of like in the "Battle of the Fang", Magnus should of been soooo much powerful considering he was a demonic primarch and should not of lost to anyone.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> It's kind of like in the "Battle of the Fang", Magnus should of been soooo much powerful considering he was a demonic primarch and should not of lost to anyone.


My cut was he was possessing a temporary body on top of being just one of his many fragments abound.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> (when they're supposed to be hundreds of feet tall in some cases)


Ugh, you sure we two are reading the same fluff? 

Meh, he is a Primarch. He is supposed to define badass.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Wraithlords are most definitely not hundreds of feet tall. A couple dozen perhaps but no more. Titans can be a couple hundred and a wraithlord is not a titan. 

As to why Fulgrim can do all that; he's a Primarch. It's not just his 'natural' strength and abilities, he's warp powered/enhanced, all the Primarchs are. that's why they can perform all their supernatural, superhuman feats. I admit the Avatar bit was over the top and not necessary but it was done to show just how good a primarch is supposed to be.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Meh, they're not quite in league with with DB-Z OP-level retardiness, yet. But give it a decade or so and I wouldn't put it past some BL writers treating them all like Superman. As you can guess, I'm not a huge fan of their fictional portrayal when it comes to some of the more high-end feats. Or even some of those of regular SMs TBH. IMO, fiction is far more interesting when antagonists aren't treated like such simple walkovers, but offer a monumental challenge. Still, BL give the fans what they want and that's all that really matters...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This wraithlord was never defined as being anything more than a few dozen feet at best. And I don`t think it was even that. The impression I got was of it being perhaps one and a half times Fulgrim`s height, considering he was able to fight it on equal footing to begin with. 

Also bear in mind that despite what the model range and DoW video games portray, the Avatar is barely over 12 ft in height himself. Look to the artwork for a better idea of scale, particularly the unit description in the eldar codex. From that I estimate three and a half metres or whatever equivalent in feet. 


I didn`t find this fluff too hard to accept at all.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Primarchs, forged from a combination of ancient science and powerful warp magicks. Remember, the greatest human psyker to have ever existed supposedly required knowledge and power from the dark gods in order to create these beings. They are quite literally probably the greatest warlords to have ever graced the galaxy, spearheading the conquest of the galaxy in a mere two hundred years. 

Fulgrim slew the Avatar of Ulthwé, I don't find that hard to accept. Did you expect the Avatar to have killed a Primarch? It doesn't really matter though, the Avatar returned to the heart of Ulthwé and was reborn anyway.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lubacca said:


> I can see some of your wrath but honestly if he's been given the gene-seed AND powered by a demon...


Primarchs don't have gene seed. They were born with all their abilities ingrained at a genetic level, not transformed from a normal human to super human in their adolescence, which is what geneseed is made to do.

I think it's in _A Thousand Sons _that Ahriman notes that a primarch's anatomy has no relation to normal human physiology. They were supposed to be the ultimate evolutionary leap for humanity. Considering primarchs are to marines what marines are to normal humans, it's not hard to imagine him taking down a wraithlord or avatar, in fact I'd be disappointed if they gave him any real problems. There are after all, marine characters who could take down wraithlords on their own.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Fulgrim slew the Avatar of Ulthwé, I don't find that hard to accept. Did you expect the Avatar to have killed a Primarch? It doesn't really matter though, the Avatar returned to the heart of Ulthwé and was reborn anyway.


Not that I expected the Wraithlord/Avatar to win against Fulgrim (he wasn't possesed at this point just his sword was), but I expected more of a fight, I mean the Wraithlord got shit on, and the Avatar got _choked_!

And in Battle of the Fang, Magnus was essentially just a warp entity held together in realspace, if he had a real body I dont think Ironhelm (or whatever his name was) would've stood a chance.



> There are after all, marine characters who could take down wraithlords on their own


Which is totally wrong, most marines can't even wound a Wraithlord in cc.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Cyleune said:


> Which is totally wrong, most marines can't even wound a Wraithlord in cc.


Unless they have specialist equipment designed for such situations, like say a powerfist? Wraithlords limbs etc are fairly thin, a few solid blows from a powerfist should do some significant damage.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Wraithlord Fulgrim killed was not just any Wraithlord mind you, it was Khiraen Goldhelm, it killed Fulgrim's entire Phoenix Guard bodyguard and Fulgrim had to use the daemonic power granted by his sword to defeat him. 

Just as not all Space Marines are the same, not all Wraithlords are the same, some are more powerful than others.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Eh, really any funky story can be made up over any wraithlord/dreadnought/captain or whatever. 

They`re _all_ uber heroes expected to defeat lesser beings with ease. Elite bodyguard or not, the Phoenix Guard were still astartes against an ancient war construct with possibly millennia of experience over them. 

In current terms, no different to generic Honour Guard vs generic Wraithlord. It`s an easy win to the big guy. 

That Fulgrim was able to overcome it just speaks of how much higher he was than his own protectors. Daemonic assistance notwithstanding.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> and the Avatar got _choked_!


People seem to object to this based on the idea that an Avatar is primarily a warp consruct and thus doesn't breathe. However just because he's choked to death doesn't mean he died of asphyxiation (sp?). Avatars are embodiments of the war spirit of their craftworld right? They could therefore be de-powered by the craftworld losing the will to fight, or being disheartened. What is more dishearening than whatching a dude choke out your war-god? Watching him beat up an ancient warrior, or slaughtering countless other eldar? Oops, he did that too. 

Plus Fulgrim himself is a warp construct. Maybe he just spirit choked the Avatars 'soul-engine-thingy' out of its body or something.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> Which is totally wrong, most marines can't even wound a Wraithlord in cc.


So Lysander, Shrike, Grimnar or Calgar wouldn't stand a chance? I think not.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> So Lysander, Shrike, Grimnar or Calgar wouldn't stand a chance? I think not.


Depends on the circumstance, against a Wraithlord of Khiraen Goldhelm's ability probably not. Against a lesser Wraithlord then they have a good chance. Fulgrim needed the additional strength bestowed by the Daemon to beat Khiraen Goldhelm so it's not unreasonable to assume that without it then it would have been an even match.

(in game terms Shrike cannot wound a Wraithlord at all)


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Not being into the codexes, does anyone know how much of this battle was made up by the author whole-cloth and how much was it the author trying to fit a square peg into a fluffy hole?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> (in game terms Shrike cannot wound a Wraithlord at all)


Shrike's lightning claws have the rending rule. He can.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> People seem to object to this based on the idea that an Avatar is primarily a warp consruct and thus doesn't breathe. However just because he's choked to death doesn't mean he died of asphyxiation (sp?). Avatars are embodiments of the war spirit of their craftworld right? They could therefore be de-powered by the craftworld losing the will to fight, or being disheartened. What is more dishearening than whatching a dude choke out your war-god? Watching him beat up an ancient warrior, or slaughtering countless other eldar? Oops, he did that too.


When the codex desribes the Avatar as their embodiment of war, it didn't mean it literally. An Avatar is a warp-entity made of molten iron (or some metal), and in it's fluff the fire is supposed to be able to overcome anything (save for 1000 year old gloves), you cant choke molten metal.



> So Lysander, Shrike, Grimnar or Calgar wouldn't stand a chance? I think not


Saw that coming, notice the word _most_. Plus, like Aramoro said, the Wraithlord wasn't your generic wraithlord, in his former life he was one of the Eldar's greatest warriors, against a 10k+ year old warrior they don't stand a chance.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> When the codex desribes the Avatar as their embodiment of war, it didn't mean it literally. An Avatar is a warp-entity made of molten iron (or some metal), and in it's fluff the fire is supposed to be able to overcome anything (save for 1000 year old gloves), you cant choke molten metal.


Well apparently a Primarchs hands and armour can also withstand it, at least for a short while. Plus I specifically said I didn't think he choked metal, he did some sort of absract killy thing (aided by the physical act of choking obviously). 




> Plus, like Aramoro said, the Wraithlord wasn't your generic wraithlord, in his former life he was one of the Eldar's greatest warriors, against a 10k+ year old warrior they don't stand a chance.


I would imagine that most wraithlords would be legendary warriors. They're like dreadnoughts, not just anybody gets one.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Eldar are the _go to_ race to make others look good, it's a sad fact but it's true. So I'm not surprised Fulgrim did that to them, also didn't Fulgrim eat the soulstone so it could be devoured by the daemon in him?

Anyway look at all the Codices and most short stories involving Eldar, they are usually owned by a smaller force, heck I think about four craftworlds got destroyed in some random manner that made them look stupid (Possessed Avatar anyone?)


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Edit: Posted in wrong thread. Cheers for the heads up!


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Err, think you've posted in the wrong thread mate. 

Adding to your post though Guilliman and Dorn are both dead. Dorn's skeleton is encased in amber on the Phalanx, so there's no getting out of that. Guilliman is dead, you can't heal in a stasis field. It's just a popular belief amongst the common people of Ultramar that he's healing. The Ultramarines themselves don't believe it and multiple sources say he's dead.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Rems - cheers! Haha, posted in the wrong Primarch thread.

I didn't realise Dorn's skeleton had been found. Is it in a book or something? I know you can't heal in a statis field but I read how, for some reason, his wound was healing. However your post contradicts that, and it sounds legit. If the Ultramarines don't believe it, then he's probably not healing.

cheers for the additions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Eldar are the _go to_ race to make others look good, it's a sad fact but it's true. So I'm not surprised Fulgrim did that to them, also didn't Fulgrim eat the soulstone so it could be devoured by the daemon in him?
> 
> Anyway look at all the Codices and most short stories involving Eldar, they are usually owned by a smaller force, heck I think about four craftworlds got destroyed in some random manner that made them look stupid (Possed Avatar anyone?)


There was a reason thread about a trope of Harlequins that butch a squad of Deathwatch effortlessly. Not only that, they made the Deathwatch squad, made up of amongst the most honored and skilled marines from across many Chapters, look like hamfisted, half-trained conscripts that struck out in blind pain and frustration. 

So it's not all bad. Just mostly bad for the Eldar.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

You know why you never hear about legions 2 and 13? They annoyed the Eldar. Their utter humiliation at the hands of the craftworlds led to their being struck from the record. Of every imperial. Everywhere.

Who says Eldar don't win? We just don't blab to everyone about it like those wimpy space marines trying to boost their failing self esteem by yelling about every victory they get. :biggrin:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Primarchs have have trouble taking on Greater Daemons (i.e. Sanguinius's broken legs, the Daemon probably could've killed Sang if it had wanted to) 
I don't see a primarch _easily_ beating an Avatar


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yet Sanguinus came back and owned him on Terra.

A Primarch, an entity that the universe has never seen or ever will again, took on a much weaker form of the avatar (since Slaanesh shattered the original one into a billion pieces or w/e) so I don't see what's so hard to believe (<---- note: I'm assuming it was Khaine or w/e, been a while)


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

There was no original Avatar. The original was Khaine himself, a god in every sense of the word. Nearly defeated Slaneesh and even when Slaneesh beat him he was so weak from the fight he couldn't destroy Khaine and so was only able to shatter him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Samules said:


> There was no original Avatar. The original was Khaine himself, a god in every sense of the word. Nearly defeated Slaneesh and even when Slaneesh beat him he was so weak from the fight he couldn't destroy Khaine and so was only able to shatter him.


Yeah just wanted to make sure that Avatar always refers to Khaine.

But I am positive that Khaine didn't even come close to defeating Slaanesh.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The original Index Astartes article only stated his hand was encased in amber, I personally never read his whole body had been found. Either way the fluff on Dorn is so old it could easily be retconned.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Yeah just wanted to make sure that Avatar always refers to Khaine.
> 
> But I am positive that Khaine didn't even come close to defeating Slaanesh.


Khaine did push Slaanesh very very close but then the Necron fluff-rape machine did a drive by on the Story and the Nightbringer corrupted Khaine when Khaine handed him his ass. Making it the Nightbringer that precipitated the fall.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Where is it stated that Khaine caused Slaanesh to break a sweat?

Genuinely curious.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Where is it stated that Khaine caused Slaanesh to break a sweat?
> 
> Genuinely curious.


There are different accounts of the confrontation, one claiming that after Khaine's defeat Slaanesh was essentially too exhausted to consume/destroy Khaine so she shattered what remained of him and exiled him from the warp. The other main account is different however and claims that Khorne (impressed by Khaine's martial prowess) fought Slaanesh for the defeated war god and their fighting over him was what shattered him and drove him out of the warp. Either way, Slaanesh didn't consume Khaine like she did most other Eldar gods.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Interesting.

The first account would suggest that the chaos powers aren't as powerful as they seem unless you assume the newly born Slaanesh didn't develop fully and thus wasn't as strong as it is now.

In any case, Khaine is a bad-ass for holding his own.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well Slaanesh developed from the Eldar, it was only after his birth did he start doing more corrupting of the humans etc which would of course make him stronger.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Well there is some confusing fluff mentioning that the chaos powers always existed despite being born or whatever.

Plus he is emotion given life for all mortal beings while Khaine is exclusive to the Eldar so in any case, I would imagine it would be stronger even moments after it _ materialized_.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

In the version where Khaine fights Slaanesh and exhausts him Slaanesh is able to stand toe to toe with Khaine because he's just consumed all the other Eldar gods and get to Khaine last, using the gathered power to defeat him. It's definitely implied that if Slaanesh had not consumed the other gods first then he wouldn't have been able to beat Khaine.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The first account would suggest that the chaos powers aren't as powerful as they seem unless you assume the newly born Slaanesh didn't develop fully and thus wasn't as strong as it is now.


Well Slaanesh had consumed the Eldar pantheon (bar 3) and had just devoured near the entire Eldar civilisation (à la trillions of souls), she was glutted on the power of the Eldar and their gods and the codex implies this was how she was able to ultimately defeat Khaine (_"Slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods, eventually proved the stronger."_). I don't think this degrades the power or standing of the chaos gods though, merely proves the immense power and ability of the war god Khaine.

I do imagine that Slaanesh has grown significantly in power and influence since the Fall as well.



Cyleune said:


> When the codex desribes the Avatar as their embodiment of war, it didn't mean it literally. An Avatar is a warp-entity made of molten iron (or some metal), and in it's fluff the fire is supposed to be able to overcome anything (save for 1000 year old gloves), you cant choke molten metal.


It does mean literally actually. Kaela Mensha Khaine is literally the Eldar's embodiment of war, their lust for it, their need for it, and their hatred of it. The Eldar codex even explains that the only reason the three gods survived the fall (Isha, Cegorach and Khaine) was because each set of ideas and values that each god represented were so firmly rooted in the Eldar psyche that not even the ultimate fall of their entire civilisation could erase them from the racial consciousness. Slaanesh consumed and replaced the other aspects of the Eldar psyche (represented by the rest of the Eldar pantheon) and became the dominant representation of the post-Fall Eldar psyche. 

In-depth analysis of the subject generally concludes that the gods were not simply warp-entities but aspects of the Eldar psyche given form within the warp, but nonetheless intrinsically linked with the Eldar species. The fall of their Empire and corruption of their psyche was reflected in the warp with the birth of Slaanesh and the death of Asuryan and the Pantheon, both events were simultaneously caused by and a result of the other.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Just to illustrate the difference between the eldar gods and the chaos gods here...

The Chaos Gods are primordial embodiments of emotional extremes. They feed on and perpetuate acts and thoughts that benefit them in order to increase their power. They do not require the worship of any single race, instead deriving power from all mortal races that have even a tenuous link to the warp. 


The eldar gods on the other hand were shaped specifically by eldar belief. The Old Ones encouraged the young but powerful eldar to venerate deities that would protect them, and it was the faith of the highly psychic eldar that brought about the eldar pantheon. The original purpose was to fight the c`tan, but as time went on and the Old Ones vanished from the universe the gods became the eldar`s new leadership. As their influence grew they became self aware and began to fit right into the role of gods, rather than the weapons and tools of warp borne origins they had been intended as.



It is easy to tell the differences, for example there is no base emotion that represents Vaul, he is a smith and artificer who creates weapons. Such a being would require a very specific imagery and worship to form as he did. Similar lines of development can be drawn with Isha, Asuryan and Kurnous.

Also a defining difference was the ability of the eldar gods to exist in the materium, one such example being the Nightbringer`s clash with Khaine. This was eventually stopped by Asuryan who wished to protect the eldar from Khaine`s jealousy. 


And as usual, the thread has wandered off topic. :crazy: Sorry.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Just to illustrate the difference between the eldar gods and the chaos gods here...
> 
> The Chaos Gods are primordial embodiments of emotional extremes. They feed on and perpetuate acts and thoughts that benefit them in order to increase their power. They do not require the worship of any single race, instead deriving power from all mortal races that have even a tenuous link to the warp.
> 
> ...


The only issue I have is that most of that information comes from cryptic Eldar myths and legends, which cannot truly be taken literally. Some also claim that Asuryan was the ancestor of all mortal life for example, but that doesn't make it literally true. But in regards to the Eldar mythic cycles, they are not simply myths but an integral part of the Eldar psyche and their culture (unlike human myths and legends). There are so many unanswered questions in regards to the Eldar myths and pantheon that it renders them subject to mass amounts of skepticism at best.

How you illustrated the creation of the Eldar gods is also an assumption (logical or not), its certainly not portrayed anywhere other than in vague myths that im aware of. Unless you know something I don't.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

It IS known that the eldar were created specifically to have a strong warp presence by the old ones. The warp candle analogy can be used here, humans shine like candles in the warp while eldar shine like bonfires, the natural tendency of any culture is to make up myths and with eldar the devotion to these myths for the Eldar is kind of like, tossing a log from their bonfire on a new pile. Eventually the pile becomes so big it is its own bonfire. This physical (before Asuryan sealed the warp from the mortal realm to stop khine from killing the eldar based on a prophecy that they would cause him to be torn into a hundred pieces) and mental presence of the gods meant that worship for all gods never fluctuated like it did in human society, if you don't believe in Khaine he comes down fro the heavens and smacks you, easy as that. So eventually all the eldar gods slowly grew to tremendous power but the onrush of power to Slaneesh made him the most powerful and so only prowess mattered. Cegorach, the trickster, essentially squirted a seltzer in Slaneesh's face and danced off into the webway (further supporting my other theory that the webway is a shielded part of the warp) while Khaine was an incarnation of the mastery of war so essentially in a fair fight he COULD NOT BE BEAT, and so Slaneesh needed to wail on him with all her magic to bring him down.

(Also Isha didn't survive in 40k, she might have in fantasy though.)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Isha is held captive by Nurgle, he tests all his diseases on her because she can overcome them and depending on how quick she does, it shows how potent his diseases are.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Samules said:


> It IS known that the eldar were created specifically to have a strong warp presence by the old ones.


I never said otherwise.



Samules said:


> the natural tendency of any culture is to make up myths and with eldar the devotion to these myths for the Eldar is kind of like, tossing a log from their bonfire on a new pile.


The Eldar mythic cycle is intrinsically connected with their very psyche, its a very different situation to what we humans understand myths and legends as.



Samules said:


> if you don't believe in Khaine he comes down fro the heavens and smacks you, easy as that.


It wasn't a case of simply believing in Khaine or not, the Eldar gods were literal manifestations of the Eldar psyche, they were the echoes of the Eldar race in the warp. Your drawing too much of a parallel with current human experience of the divine. The Eldar gods were very different.



Samules said:


> (Also Isha didn't survive in 40k, she might have in fantasy though.)


Isha did survive in 40k. Read _Codex: Chaos Daemons_.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> Maybe it's just my love of Eldar making me bias'd


every faction gets treated as a whipping boy from time to time

I've read a part of _Atlas Infernal_, and in it, harlequins casually dispatch a deathwatch captain and his marines


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Luckily it's not like DW are on a roll of humiliating defeats. I'd hate to think that they are turning into SM wiping boys when as a chapter completely comprised of highly-equipped veterans they should be considered a notch above the others.

Keeping it on subject and with known lore like Ka'Bandha aside, I wonder if they'll be any other personal defeats for a Primarch in future HH novels?..

*EDIT* - ...obviously in bouts not involving other Primarchs or the Big-E.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only issue I have is that most of that information comes from cryptic Eldar myths and legends, which cannot truly be taken literally. Some also claim that Asuryan was the ancestor of all mortal life for example, but that doesn't make it literally true. But in regards to the Eldar mythic cycles, they are not simply myths but an integral part of the Eldar psyche and their culture (unlike human myths and legends). There are so many unanswered questions in regards to the Eldar myths and pantheon that it renders them subject to mass amounts of skepticism at best.
> 
> How you illustrated the creation of the Eldar gods is also an assumption (logical or not), its certainly not portrayed anywhere other than in vague myths that im aware of. Unless you know something I don't.


I`d be concerned if you took _any_ of this literally CotE.  

Frankly, I feel that there is enough subtle hinting and careful placement of mythos and lore to come to what I said as a logical conclusion. I cannot think of any other means for such gods to have come about given that they do not fit the description of the Old Ones. 

Given that GW is never going to contradict me directly (if they do I will naturally accept that I was wrong) I am happy to sit on what I know as the best explanation.


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## InExterminatusExtremis (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi!


I'm not sure which books are considered canon and which are not. But reading Xenology a couple of months ago I found that it hinted pretty strongly that the Eldar gods were/are actually the last Old Ones still alive after they lost against the Necrons and Enslavers.

I'll see if I can find the direct quotes later.


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

@ Samules: in fantasy not only does Isha survive, all the other gods survive as well, actually the arn't even attacked so... and slannesh existed with the other gods prior, another reason why there can't be a 40k/Fantasy crossover.


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