# Will the Grey Knight's Codex Effect the Game in a Major Way?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I suppose this deals with tactics. But will the knew Grey Knights Codex effect how people play the game in a major way? Will people begin to change their armies around? What do you think?

The new Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine Codex have totally changed how other players play these armies. Now that the Grey Knights have been elevated from their previous Codex and have had several changes done to them, do you think this will also change lists around? Haha, basically the same question asked twice.

The main reason I want to discuss this is because the CSM codex is a huge section to the 40k game. Now that they have all these over powered units that basically make CSM close combat units look like shit, do you think players will change really good lists that have Daemon Princes and Bezerkers to solve their problems against Daemon Hunter Players?

Who knows? Maybe the Grey Knights Codex will end up dead like its predecesor. Or maybe it might pick up more fans. Please share your thoughts?


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

well if they've done their job properly then we'll have to change our approaches. GK are a army designed to deal with our strengths, so it would be a failure if we could still win with our power builds. 

the good news is that if our codex has been written well then we can still win if we make the needed changes. time will tell if this is the case. i think it will be.

also, all this change has the added benefit of driving sales. we can no longer be complacent with what we have. we will have to expand and field lists that were previously unattractive to us.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

one bore of this will that you'll see another rise in lash lists. What most players have been trying to break apart from.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I'll certainly be considering addin some form of plasma to my lists from now on, but other than that I dont think I'll change my list much

I predict that Obliterators will see a major spike in use though.....


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

I want to say a whole lot on this subject, but frankly it'd be a tactica not a post. In short though, if GK change the landscape of the game as it stands currently, I will be very surprised.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'd be worried about using Bezerkers against these guys. They would essentially be a wasted of points in every respect. 

These guys are essentially Possessed with all the upgrades, and the high roll, and a high weapon skill. 

We shall see of course when point cost comes out. Apparently they can get plus one initiative power weapons or initiative two power weapons. So I'm guessing they will be paying more points.


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

I dont like the idea of them having pretty much 'free' TP move of up to 30" with no scatter anywhere on the board, for shooty armies this is not good


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Well... the models( from what ive seen) are exquisite, so i think more people will scrap their armies for GK in the near future xD

If you can resist the temptation, anything that does relatively well against MEQ's will see an increase. 
And if the GK are going to be a power weapon-y army, some players will want units that can take invul/cover saves as much as possible.
and stating the obvious, daemon armies are gonna get a rough time from these guys.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

As an Emperors Children player (yes that means that I use Noise Marines) Im gonna give up playing the army.
I simply wont pay 5 more points for a Sonic Blaster armed NM then a PAGK. Its not happening. Ill revive my 2nd/3d ed SW instead and actually get a fun army to use and play. A lot better then being angry over how damn limiting the CSM codex is.

For Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch players it might still be a game in various ways:
Berzerkers will run into I6 halberds and die, if the GKs were cheap asses though (skipped Halberd) they will get a pasting. As they cant shoot in a useful way they will have a hard time for sure.
Plague Marines will still be awesome as long as they stay the hell out of CC and even there they will last longer thanks to defensive grenades and T5.
1kSons however should see a boon in their chances. AP3 Bolters and 4++ save is a godsend against the Emperors Righteous Fury. Too bad Gav forgot to include Psycic hoods in the CSM codex 

Obliterators will become even more mandatory (and thats saying a hell of a lot) to make sure you have enough plasma weaponry available. 


I guess everything will depend on armies/missions/table as always, but Khorne players pretending to be the gods of CC will have to find another idea against GKs. You cant rely on charging stuff if they fight at I6 with Forceweapons. As a whole it will force CSM to try to play a more varied army and with the limits of the CSM codex thats a problem due to few actually "points for points useful units".

Or one could simply soldier on like nothing happened and if GK hits the other side of the table play for a draw from start and skip illusions:stop:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Actually not too bad. Grey Knights suck. But they and the points it takes to purchase their really good upgrades is pretty cheap.

Another Crazy thing is that Grey Knight Terminators are just as cheap as regular terminators except they have a 4+ Invulnerable. Upgrades are also cheap. 

I see Grey Knights generally being ignored with much terminator use.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The only way that the Grey Knight Codex will effect the game for Chaos Marine players is that it's just one more book that Chaos players will have to struggle to tackle so for those that attend tournaments at least, I'd expect to have a more difficult time.

I think all players will want to look into more plasma weaponry than usual, but other than that I don't see any need for any major changes in army lists or even tactics.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah. I was a bit worried about it before I took a good look. But now I'm not that freaked out. Daemon Princes and Bezerkers still have their spots in the game. 

I suggest people go take a look at the new codex in their local GWs.

Essentially, the Grey Knights have awesome weapons and shit. But they really lack attacks to make them work effectively. 

Grey Knights are basically the same stats as a regular space marine... surprisingly. 
They have power weapons/Nemesis Swords. Basically a force weapon that gives the carrier a + plus one invulnerable. At twenty points a pop. 

They may upgrade their swords to haldebierds for five points. Its a two handed weapon which is a force weapon with initiative +2. The champion can get a whole bunch of cool shit. Hammer only 10 points. 

But terminators are pretty interesting. Because they are treated as troop choices with a better invulernable save. Plus... lol, they are all force weapons. I wouldn't be surprised to see all terminator armies now. Sounds reasonable due to the fact they have fire power and they have reliable saves now. Plus again... upgrades cheap.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Actually not too bad. Grey Knights suck. But they and the points it takes to purchase their really good upgrades is pretty cheap.
> 
> Another Crazy thing is that Grey Knight Terminators are just as cheap as regular terminators except they have a 4+ Invulnerable. Upgrades are also cheap.
> 
> I see Grey Knights generally being ignored with much terminator use.


They only get a 4+ Invul in close combat.

Otherwise, they're easily shot up or crawling through cover.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> The only way that the Grey Knight Codex will effect the game for Chaos Marine players is that it's just one more book that Chaos players will have to struggle to tackle so for those that attend tournaments at least, I'd expect to have a more difficult time.
> 
> I think all players will want to look into more plasma weaponry than usual, but other than that I don't see any need for any major changes in army lists or even tactics.


I think if any army can handle MEQ well they won't need to change much vs. GK. They are just another Marine army.

As for Plasma weaponry, yes, we will see a little bit more of that. The same applies to Vindicators and Demolishers.

Those armies that can't deal with Paladins and Terminators in tournaments don't need to worry about GK winning as long as there's Eldar and Dark Eldar around.

Overall, I'd say the GK codex moved the metagame into a better direction. More plasma, less melta spam, less deathstar units of TWC and the like, and Nob Bikers are basically extinct if they weren't before.

In addition, Oblits will see more tournament play and Chaos Vindicators must be pretty happy. but yes, don't get into CC with Grey Knights with Halberds if you want to keep your dudes alive. Berserkers will murder standard naked GKSS though, unless of course they have Halberds as well.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats good to know. Thanks for the update son.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LKHERO said:


> I think if any army can handle MEQ well they won't need to change much vs. GK. They are just another Marine army.


I think that's a little bit of an oversimplification. It depends entirely on what kind of Grey Knight list we're talking about. A list that's heavy on Henchmen operates entirely differently than one with tons of Purifiers as Troops in Rhinos and so on.



> As for Plasma weaponry, yes, we will see a little bit more of that. The same applies to Vindicators and Demolishers.


I dunno about that, but time will tell.



> Those armies that can't deal with Paladins and Terminators in tournaments don't need to worry about GK winning as long as there's Eldar and Dark Eldar around.


I'm struggling to think of an army that has a hope in hell of winning a tournament that can't deal with Terminators and I'm not having much luck.



> Overall, I'd say the GK codex moved the metagame into a better direction. More plasma, less melta spam, less deathstar units of TWC and the like, and Nob Bikers are basically extinct if they weren't before.


The Grey Knights aren't anywhere nearly revolutionary enough to alter the metagame on their own. At least not in any significant way.



> In addition, Oblits will see more tournament play and Chaos Vindicators must be pretty happy. but yes, don't get into CC with Grey Knights with Halberds if you want to keep your dudes alive. Berserkers will murder standard naked GKSS though, unless of course they have Halberds as well.


Many tournament lists maxed out on Obliterators anyway.

I wouldn't be so scared of Grey Knight Strike Squads in close combat. They have one Attack each - even with halberds that's about three kills from a ten man unit. The Berserkers can murder Grey Knights in close combat even after losing a few models.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd be more interested in how GK will shake up the metagame concerning MC's and leafblower/razorwolf.

The first is more of a personal distaste in the current tyranid tactic of tervigon spam to flood the board and waste time. The second is the actual top tier list.
I don't give a fuck about that waste of time CSM codex getting yet another kick, it was never the most competitive list, and now with wolves/ig out it definitely isn't the top tier anymore. Now if GK shakes up those two, it might make CSM better in the longer run, if you see what I incoherently mean.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Now if GK shakes up those two, it might make CSM better in the longer run, if you see what I incoherently mean.


It's possible yes, but the Grey Knights will most likely alter the metagame simply by being played in place of those Imperial Guard and Space Wolf armies rather than by presenting them with something that they need to adapt to overcome.

So in larger events at least, I wouldn't be surprised to see less Guard and Wolves placing near the top if only because there'll be less Guard and Wolf armies around.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

They fight like the rest and they will die like the rest. The new GK codex has done nothing but refuel me in playing my daemons and my new shiny csm army.


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## abitterbuffalo (May 7, 2009)

From play testing the army and actually seeing how the new GK codex has come together, they're not as daunting as the most of folk make them out to be. Even though the newer armies can field more models than the previous GK codex, it's not an unmanageable amount. They're still subject to the weaknesses that all marine armies are, especially with losing Fearless and S6 in melee.

Yes, Nemesis Weapons are now truly Force Weapons and so many power weapons across the field is hard for many armies to deal with. The fact that entire squads can cause instant death with their attacks is countered by the fact that most units with multiple wounds have high T. At S4, these units are just as hard to actually wound as they are with other marine armies. If you want to make them easier to wound, you lose instant death. It's a very dynamic trade off that offers depth to every Grey Knight army list.

It seems like all the newer codecies have been following the trend of offering many options as well as more inter-unit synergies. I'd have to say I like the direction GW is taking the game. In the coming editions we'll be seeing more diverse army compositions coming from different players. With every faction having several highly competitive builds, games will be decided by personal strategy and style rather than a single, dominating list.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

abitterbuffalo said:


> ...especially with losing Fearless and S6 in melee.


The first here (fearless) is worse then Marine morale rules. Sure you can goof that LD9 roll every now and then, but being allowed to roll LD, then flee test and if caught roll saves is a hell of a lot better then rolling plain saves straight up.
Then again arent Purifiers and other choices still fearless?

Losing S6 in CC is a loss though for sure, even though I6 is a sweet replacement


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree, when I first created the thread it was because I heard about the special rules provided to them with the rules that its current edition already had. So yes, that S 6 and fearless really played a role. Also, I believe True Grit is also not an option. So its just 1 attack per model.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree, when I first created the thread it was because I heard about the special rules provided to them with the rules that its current edition already had. So yes, that S 6 and fearless really played a role. Also, I believe True Grit is also not an option. So its just 1 attack per model.


1A is a fact on PAGKs but the Purifiers (elite PA dudes) have 2A base so they are all the same glory still. Albeit with I6 S4 Forceweapon attacks for 1 point less then they used to be


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm still quite disapointed by the new codex. It had so much potential to be something pretty awesome.


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## genesis80 (Jan 12, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> It's possible yes, but the Grey Knights will most likely alter the metagame simply by being played in place of those Imperial Guard and Space Wolf armies rather than by presenting them with something that they need to adapt to overcome.
> 
> So in larger events at least, I wouldn't be surprised to see less Guard and Wolves placing near the top if only because there'll be less Guard and Wolf armies around.


May I ask why? Seems to me like most people go to an event to win. And so far, nothing in the GK codex does as much as SW or IG. Sure, there will be lots of new GK armies, but no list i've seen so far comes close to the IG or Wolves effectiveness (which makes GK a meh list in my view) so why would one bring them to a tournament IN PLACE OF a leafblower or razorwolf?!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

genesis80 said:


> so why would one bring them to a tournament IN PLACE OF a leafblower or razorwolf?!


That would be because the user stopped being a piece of shit gamer.
Ha ha ha.

Nah but I'm waiting on the mathhammer monkeys to figure out all the special rules and try to forge a list of all the top-tier stuff before I pass judgement on it, it's a ton of new psychic powers and nuances that make it desirable, but at the end of the day if it's bad, it's bad.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

genesis80 said:


> May I ask why? Seems to me like most people go to an event to win. And so far, nothing in the GK codex does as much as SW or IG. Sure, there will be lots of new GK armies, but no list i've seen so far comes close to the IG or Wolves effectiveness (which makes GK a meh list in my view) so why would one bring them to a tournament IN PLACE OF a leafblower or razorwolf?!


Considering the Codex isn't even out yet and the vast majority of people haven't even gotten a game in with it, it's too early to say that it isn't as effective as Wolves or Guard.


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## abitterbuffalo (May 7, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> Losing S6 in CC is a loss though for sure, even though I6 is a sweet replacement


There's a trade off with I6 as well. For PAGK, you'll have to pay for the upgrade. Terminator Squads may take the Halberds for free, but what's the real cost? Nemesis Swords give units that have invuln saves a +1 (or -1, depending on how you look at it) bonus to that save while in close combat. As we all know 4++ is much better than 5++, and 3++ is even better when your HQ have Iron Halos and Nemesis Swords in CC.

One nifty combo I've noticed is that when an IC runs with another unit, you can use Hammerhand on the PAGK, let's say. The +1 str bonus is applied to the entire unit, IC as well. If that IC uses Hammerhand as well, he confers +1 Str to the entire unit. Hammerhand doesn't specify it can not be stacked with itself. No instant death that round, but perhaps we haven't lost S6 Grey Knights?


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

abitterbuffalo said:


> One nifty combo I've noticed is that when an IC runs with another unit, you can use Hammerhand on the PAGK, let's say. The +1 str bonus is applied to the entire unit, IC as well. If that IC uses Hammerhand as well, he confers +1 Str to the entire unit. Hammerhand doesn't specify it can not be stacked with itself. No instant death that round, but perhaps we haven't lost S6 Grey Knights?


If that works how you think it works, you could go higher than S6, too (after all, you can stick multiple IC's in one squad).


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## abitterbuffalo (May 7, 2009)

Jack Mac said:


> If that works how you think it works, you could go higher than S6, too (after all, you can stick multiple IC's in one squad).


Yep, I'm already thinking Strike Squads of 8 with Champion and Tech-marine in Rhinos. Cheap way of getting S7 on normal troops, could field two of such groups plus plenty of long range armor punchers in 1500.


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## callred (Jun 24, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> Losing S6 in CC is a loss though for sure, even though I6 is a sweet replacement



it is good however S6 did mean that you were wounding a lot more in the past now you my go first but still need to hit and then wound to do the damage - which i've found to be the problem so far unless you running a big Purifier squad with Crowe or BH Champ for re-rolls to hit

just my 10p worth so far :grin:


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## abitterbuffalo (May 7, 2009)

callred said:


> it is good however S6 did mean that you were wounding a lot more in the past now you my go first but still need to hit and then wound to do the damage - which i've found to be the problem so far unless you running a big Purifier squad with Crowe or BH Champ for re-rolls to hit
> 
> just my 10p worth so far :grin:


Yeah, another overlooked difference is that the most of GK have lost WS5, which makes the new instant kill mechanic a lot less scary. Champions having the Chaplin ability to reroll hits in the first round of cc does help.

Something I'm pondering... and let's see how ridiculous we can get...

Let's say we have a squad composed of the following:
Librarian - Hammerhand, Might of Titan, Psyker Mastery 2
Librarian - Hammerhand, Might of Titan, Psyker Mastery 2
Tech-priest - Hammerhand
PAGK - Hammerhand

Does this mean we are looking at S10 marines in the assault (provided all Psyker tests are passed)?!?!?!?

Might of Titan specifies that is stacks with Hammerhand... but Hammerhand does not specify whether or not it stacks with itself.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

abitterbuffalo said:


> Might of Titan specifies that is stacks with Hammerhand... but Hammerhand does not specify whether or not it stacks with itself.


A pretty clear indication that the power is not stackable, no?


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## abitterbuffalo (May 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> A pretty clear indication that the power is not stackable, no?


Not exactly, I would say. Hammerhand's wording is as follows:

This power is used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase. Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth.

There is absolutely no indication either way. By how it is worded here, it seems entirely possible to use multiple Hammerhands from different casters within the same unit. They at least took the effort to mention that it affects not only who is casting the power but also the entire unit they are joined with.


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

Bah. Silly Greyknights and their force weapons. Makes no difference against one wound models. I shall still collect their skulls with swarms of berzerkers and Kharn!


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Here is a kinda abusive list:

HQ: Cortez

And 6 Warbands of Jerico troops with Chimeras

So much Shooting out of a chimera and it all fits under 1500 pts....

So if it actually works against a lot of people I'd imagine more anti mech lists just to remove the safety net for the space monkeys.

P.S. it fits under a 1,500 force


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Some funny stuff I have planned for Apoc Games.

Mastery 3 Libby, Staff, Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Empyrean Brain Mines
Brotherhood Champion, Empyrean Brain Mines
10 Paladins, Apothecary, with Staff, Banner, Psycannon w/ MC Halberd, Psycannon with Falchion, Psycannon w/ Halberd, Psycannon w/ Sword, Halberd, MC Halberd, Sword, Falchion

Ignore the insane cost, for a second (~1000pts, and non scoring - Ouch), and look at the tactic.

Librarian triggers Might of Titan x3
Brotherhood Champion triggers Hammerhand (S8)
Paladins auto-activated Force Weapons (or Hammerhand again for S9 against none multi-wound models or T5+/Eternal Warriors).

On the charge, chance to stop an enemy target from attacking on the off chance they fail to kill enough. 
Puts out D3+2 Reroll to hit, reroll to wound I10 S8 Instant Death/S9 Power Weapon attacks against a monstrous creature or IC (note he cannot Sacrifice - although after that... you'd need to?)
16 Reroll to hit, I6 S8 Instant Death/S9 Power Weapon attacks with +3D6 to penetrate armour.
28 Reroll to hit, I4 S8 Instant Death/S9 Power Weapon attacks with +3D6 to penetrate armour.

If any enemy is left alive - I have the ability to use Shrouding to get Stealth/6+ Cover Save in addition to the 2+/5++ they have, then use Sanctuary to have a good chance of causing a couple of wounds against chargers, and followed up by Hammerhand for S6/7 if they still make it to combat (where admittedly, I lose the rerolls to hit, and an attack off every model). At which point I have a 2+ with FNP, or I can take the Power Fist/Weapon attacks on the Sword or Stave armed models (who have a 4++ or 2++ respectively)


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## Daxora (Sep 4, 2010)

> Bah. Silly Greyknights and their force weapons. Makes no difference against one wound models. I shall still collect their skulls with swarms of berzerkers and Kharn!


I've tried. 7 zerkers (with fist) assaulted a Grandmaster and 2 purifiers, locked in CC with 5 Plaguemarines. And they failed miserably.
Hurray for rad and psychotroke grenades. -.-'

I know, csm isn't considered the most compatitive army, but so far had the chance against anything.
But against gk i just have no idea. CC is a dead idea obviously, and thanks to shrouding, lash and obliterator plasma cannons won't help either if the whole squad rolls 3+ cover (also tried)

Deny me if I'm wrong, but IMO all the other MEQ armies are down as well (excep SW of course), since they can't field enough firepower either.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On the plus note GK's are perfectly aligned with how I typically build my CMS. Hell my 1000 point list has 4 AC's, 6 Plasma guns, and 4 melt's with 1-2 large blast weapons in the mix for good measure, mind you DP's take a hit against such armies do to low number of attacks vs entire units using hammer hand (Basically makes you a marine captain with 4 wounds fighting a entire unit with power weapons.), but still I only expect moderate change being facilitated for my own play style at least.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

played my first knight today and can only say no need to worry! i typically play 1500 so when called for 2000 i upgraded my 10 thousandsons to 20 and took a couple of raptors. 
the sons were brilliant. ap3 is brill and when i was then assaulted the 4++ really holds its own.
zerkers and plagues still have a very strong place. gk being very capable at shooting makes the plagues a good defence and zerkers are still very strong on the attack.
play GK and see how little you're fighting. relax. kill them


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