# I am having second thoughts about playing 40k



## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

I am having serious second thoughts about playing 40k. Ever since I graduated from beginners club at my local games workshop, my beloved hobby has taken a turn for the worst. Here's what happened...

i've been happily collecting an Imperial guard army since October (when a friend finally convinced me after lots of umms and errs), thinking that I had a great little army. Every sunday, I'd take my fledgling 500 point force out to my local games workshop playing alonside the umpteen space marine players against the umpteen tyranid players (battle of macragge, obviously). I had mixed fates and after about a month and a bit, I was told by my teacher that I have grasped enough knowledge to play the beautiful game (40k, not football).

Then things took a turn for the worst. Games rarely lasted over 2 turns :shok: and then came the boasting. A typical conversation in my wargames club would go:

Guy 1: My ork nob has power claw which doubles his strength to ten! What can better that?
Guy 2: Well, my chaos lord is in terminator armour. 2+ save and 4+ invulnerable save! How about you Chris?
Me: Well, I...I...I got nothing.
Guy 1: Exactly, cause guardsmen suck.
Me 

I feel that me and my guardsmen are rubbish. twenty games, and only ever taken out 4 units in each. I really don't know what to do. I can't leave the Guard (because I love them and my parents won't let me) and no other armies appeal to me. What should I do? Thanks for listening forum users.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

To win with the guard you need to have a wide variety of forces to mix together into the optimal force for certain enemies. Yes it will seem like the guard are lousy, but mostly they just need to be used properly. 

Also for characters and such remember when they toss together an awesome character then he will cost a lot. normally you will be able to afford an entire platoon of infantry for what they pay for 1 guy. this means that you can have about 30-40 shots fired at this 1 guy, with this many shots the guy will go down eventually even if he does manage to take some of your guard with him. then you can let your massed firepower start to gain some extra points.

Also remember to use your artilery to great effect. The guard had just about the widest selection of tanks that when used properly you will injury the enemy. Remember to get Basilisks with inderect fire. since it is an artilary weapon you don't have to rely on guard accuracy and it fires templates which will seriously hurt your opponent. 

Also try and bulk up your men with weapons that can pierce through your enemies armor. Mostly try to get plasma, melta, and as many AP 4 or better weapons as possible.

Mostly it just seems that you don't have enough figures to field appropriate armies based on your opponent, but also remember that it takes a while to learn the best strategy against your opponents.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Dude, keep in mind that IG are not about Uber-Characters... IG are about the masses of lasguns and firepower that those stupid characters need to overcome...

Ask them... How many models are you fielding? Then tell them how many you are. Quantity is a quality all its own.

At 2250 (the local norm) my IG boasts 120 infantry and 7 vehicles... even the Ork and Bug players fail to top it with what they consider to be horde lists. My IG are also the local faves to win in any local tourney. Their record of 17 wins, 2 draws, and only 1 loss in local tourneys testifies to the fact that Uber-Characters are not what the game is really about.


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## darkane (Nov 14, 2007)

while i have never played the IG it is definitly my understanding that they are an army that you have to learn to be successful with, like tau. i got blasted in many games before i truly understood the intricacies of the army. The other armies that you seem to be playing are armies where if you screw up it might not hurt to badly.

as far as bragging go, take what you do well and use that. i LOVE to talk before the game how great rail guns are. strength 10 AP1 man, that is some fire power, the enemy armor better watch out. then when the game plays out they didnt get killed by the big uber gun but a piranah that snuck up behind their big uber vehicle or character and put a fusion blaster shot right up their respective tailpipes. 

use your strengths to your advantage, it takes time. like a sports player moving up into a new level of play, that is what you have done, and you are playing people who have already had their 40k growth spurt. 

lasgun lasgun lasgun!!!!!!


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## evantar (Dec 31, 2007)

Characters are great and all, but characters are nothing when they have to make 40 saves. What are the odds of passing 40 saves, even if its 2+? Far too often have my HQs dropped to fire like this. From what I know about IG, they are a shootie army. They are meant to get many many many shots down field and a wide variety of shots at that. Not to mention they have some of the best tanks in the game... If your worried about characters, maybe you should get an assassin if it is allowed for Imperial Gaurd? Like the Callidus assassin. "Move that unit 6" forward out of cover so I can shoot at them please." "Why? Because my Callidus assassin said so."


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

If you want to you can bring out assassins by allying in a few deamonhunters, or witchhunters


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Blackhiker said:


> If you want to you can bring out assassins by allying in a few deamonhunters, or witchhunters


turbo penetrator muhahhha die +2 save


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Personally I switched from guard because I got tired of having useless infantry with armor that does next to nothing and flashlights or heavy weapons that always seemed to miss in the clinch. They can be a competitive army, they're just not my style.

At least my Orks are tough and have some fun abilities.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, the only Guard infantry I ever use are Krieg Grenadiers, but I think you need a sh*tload of lasguns, backed up heavy weapon teams and serious armored support. Take my army for example. 

Command Tank, Command Tank, Tank Ace, Tank Ace, Tank Ace, Tank Squad, Tank Squad, Tank Squad, Tank Squad, (guess what?) Tank Squad, Stormtroopers, Stormtroopers, Hellhound Squad, Basilisk, Basilisk, Basilisk.

My army, in it's entirety at the tourney at my local GW. The point is, you will almost ALWAYS outnumber your erstwhile opponents, so wait back and pummel them with massed lasgun fire and Lascannons, Battle Cannons, Demolishers, Earthshakers, and *gasp* Baneblades.

-Dirge

-Dirge


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

find i player who uses guard and wins with them. Steal their army list and use it as your own. From this you will see what works and gain ideas of your own. But most important of all don't give up on 40k after only a month


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

Mad King George said:


> turbo penetrator muhahhha die +2 save


the turbo penetrator does 2 wounds and slices through vehicles, the rifle is always AP 2


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Do not give up yet, if that was the ase I would have given up 12 years ago when I was getting spanked over and over, and a cou[le years when I was.... but that is besides the point. Build your army up a bit more, tanks are always a wonderful thing. But they are correct you can throw so many shots down range that statistically you are going to kill models even with the better armor save.


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

i'm working on some guard myself. thus far, in my (extremely) limited experience, the guard's main strength lies in both number of bodies and number of heavy/spec weapons they can bring to bear. i mean, when compared to, say, marines, you can easily field 3-4 times the troops, with 3-4 times the heavy/spec weapons, for the same points. used correctly, this can devestate the opposition. oh, and you can take a leman russ. 'nough said:biggrin:


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Blackhiker said:


> the turbo penetrator does 2 wounds and slices through vehicles, the rifle is always AP 2


He meant the Hellfire round, I think


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Oh, the callidus is great for killing charcters by the way...
You:"take three wounds"
opponent with super char:" I have a 4+ INVUL save"(nerdy voice)
You:"what invul save"(maniacle laughter)

Or use a vindicare, or ally some 3+ save sisters of battle if you really want to
As mentioned before, guard strength is numbers...infantry and vehicles. You can field a crap load of lascannons and battle cannons do deal with marines and a crap load of lasguns to deal with horde nids and the lascannons to deal with those monstrous creatures.
Unfortunately you have to buy it all but sometimes that is the best part, holding in your hands a new tank is always fun.

Don't quit and you will get better...Veterancy takes time.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

The guard isn't exactly the most newbie friendly army. It has a interesting force organization chart. Once you figure out how it works, and get over the nervous breakdown when you realize just HOW MANY models you need to buy/assemble/paint, you should start to win.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Nosotros said:


> He meant the Hellfire round, I think


no i ment turbo ;-) ive been allowed to use my assasin a few times win big battle games

hahaha


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Mad King George said:


> no i ment turbo ;-) ive been allowed to use my assasin a few times win big battle games
> 
> hahaha


Ah well, regardless of what you meant I think we can all agree that Vindicares=Kick Ass.
I was using one at the local hobby center today and almost throughout the entire game he wasn't shot at because units kept on failing the night battle test for the stealth suit, heheh.


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## obsidian492 (Nov 14, 2007)

chrisman 007 said:


> I feel that me and my guardsmen are rubbish.


Believe it or not that's exactly why I chose Guard as my main army - they suck! w00t!

On a more serious note, I think you just need more games under your belt. You'll get used to the boasting (I sure have), and soon you'll be able to come up with some great responses ... like whipping them in the game, and pointing out that the Ork Nob didn't really get to use that strength 10 because he was shot to heck ...


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

One of the great inspirational paraphrased quotes of the Imperial Guard is, "If you surrender to them, I'll shoot you myself." The following is probably vaguely offensive, but it'll make you feel better all the same.




Some points to remember when going to play pick-up games of any variety, whether they be 40k or a cat-punting contest:

-In the end, it's a game with plastic spacemen. If Gamer X needs to pump himself up by telling Gamer Y that his Terminator Lord can kill everyone without taking a scratch (and he can't... shoot him with lasguns and watch the halarity of statistics do their thing) and that's the only way he can get his kicks, then Gamer X's best and only friend is probably that Terminator Lord. 

-Does either of the aforementioned "My army's character is meaner than Chuck Norris" players smell vaguely of a dumpster? If so, read the bit after the parentheses in the first point again. The Terminator Lord is all that guy has. Similarly, if these guys look like they could shatter a mirror by glancing at it due to their horrific appearance, their probable virginity, or unemployment at age 35, read the first point again after the parentheses.

-Let me reiterate the point. There are gamers out there who, simply put, are dicks because it makes them feel better about their crappy lives, whatever the reason may be. If telling a new player that their army sucks is all that keeps them from passing out in the gutter, then that's really their problem, you know? People who're there to have fun don't act like that, after all. 

-For whatever reason, gamers respond well to "an eye for an eye." If they tell you your army sucks, tell them why their army is for men who require an excessive dose of viagra. If that doesn't get a reaction, and the person who's been putting you down has Space Marines of any sort, tell them sometime that Space Marines are child molesters, and you'd rather have an army of brown shirts than Michael Jacksons. And honestly, that's not much of a joke. Read about Black Templar Neophytes sometime and tell me that's not the most unsubtle thing ever.

-If the offensive aforementioned points that put down the other player in some way, shape, or form, or attempt to analyze their personality based entirely on stereotypes doesn't do anything for you, then think of this. The Games Workshop hobby is a HOBBY. The word implies a craft of some sort. You started an Imperial Guard army presumably because you like the models, and ultimately, that's what's the most important thing. Unless you're dipping your models in drywall (someone I played in a tournament the other day had Horrors of Tzeentch that had been...drywalled... you can't make that up...) you're probably spending more time putting them together and painting them than you ever will actually playing the game. I certainly spend about ten hours painting for every hour of game time I get, and most games I play are around two and a half hours. 

-Finally, if that really doesn't cut it, I'll just be blunt. Or blunter than I have been. Imperial Guard are probably one of the top three armies in the game overall from a competitive playability standpoint. You can seriously jack up a Space Marine army in about two turns of shooting without breaking a sweat. In 1000 points, you can field twenty missile launchers pretty easily. Theoretically, half of those hit, but statistics don't really mean much-- lasguns kill more terminators than anything else in this game for some crazy reason. If twenty missile launchers isn't enough for you, you've got the one and only main battle tank (or what most closely passes for one) in the game at your disposal, and it puts nice holes in 300 point Space Marine squads with its battle cannon. Bring three Leman Russes and see what happens. If that still isn't good enough, then do one (or both) of two things. Post your army list on here, and we'll help you fix it up, and ask about what you can do with certain units to be more effective when you think you need to; and/or bring Commissar Yarrick and fifty conscripts. Let the Chaos Terminator Lord suck on that for six turns. He'll never kill 'em all, and they'll never run off. Even if he does kill 'em all, that represents like ten percent of your army's total points in Conscripts in a 2000 point game, and Yarrick probably will never even got into close combat if you position him far enough back. The really stupid part about all of that is that the Conscripts will eventually pull him down before he kills them all if you play past six turns.

-In closing, I'd like to reiterate my first point. This is a game involving plastic spacemen, household chemicals applied to said spacemen, and killing a couple hours on a given afternoon when we should all be at work/school instead. Have fun with it, and if they still give you crap, then be a man and complain to the redshirts. The sad truth is that Games Workshop wants your money bad enough that they'll tell those guys to shove it so you can have a good time. But that's really the last resort, if the aforementioned half-jokes regarding midlife crisises and male impotence don't do the trick.


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## Hicks (Nov 20, 2007)

Well I see something that's pretty obvious to me. Guards are pretty bad in low point games because their troop choices aren't min-maxable. In 500pts games, I have no trouble believing that you get owned by flyrants or daemon princes. You have to take tons of troops that have virtually no chance to stop those monsters from reaching your line. When they do you can't sacrifice enough bodies to stop MCs or dedicated assault units long enough to be able shoot them up with the few plasma guns you'll have.

Try playing a 1500pts game with 3 Leman Russes, plasma galore and maxed out heavy weapons and leadership enhencers, you shouldn't lose so badly. Lasguns just aren't good enough to win and at 500pts that's what you'll be mostly shooting with.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Las Death Las Death Las Death!
People hate it it when their men die to Las Death
and you could get 50 Consvripts for just 200pts 
not to mention you get the Earthshaker cannon
The Demolisher 
and the Battle tank
oh and my old favourite Ratlings 
Rough Riders and Ogryns always do their part in Combat
and then Last Of all Yarrik who needs an invulnerable save when you get a Force field that can reduce strngth 10 to strength 4.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

You have a sick amount of options that you can take with your army. Just look and see what you need to get next. I would seriously suggest posting your army list and let centuries of experience work for you on what to get next so the next time you go into the GW store you spank that arrogant ass who makes you feel bad about your army.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Also, the community seems a little pants in my area. I went to my schools club for two hours, spent one and a half of those hours arguing witha tyranid playing first year with a bloated ego.


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## Hicks (Nov 20, 2007)

chrisman 007 said:


> Also, the community seems a little pants in my area. I went to my schools club for two hours, spent one and a half of those hours arguing witha tyranid playing first year with a bloated ego.


I hear you, I have had bad experience with pick up games too. Nowadays I only play with my close friends and we have so much more fun.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

lol, Welcome to the ordeal of competitive gaming. You'll eventually find players that are good people to hang with, even when opposing one another over the tabletop.

Generally, when just beginning, you'll end up spending more time theorizing and getting familiar with the game rules, and the rules for each unique army, than you will in actual game play. Kinda sucks, but there it is.

My first games, at 1850, took over 3 hours usually. Soon after, my 2250 games would take less than 2 hours. If it is at all possible, ask whomever you consider to be the local 'veteran' to walk you through the paces in a few practice games... These games are meant to be instructional. This Vet should be able to point out mistakes during the game, allowing you to make corrections, and explaining the pros and cons of your move/shoot/assault options as they occur. Generally, a few games like this and a thorough rereading of the BBB will have you as prepared to face the enemy as you can. Only experience can help progress you further from there, generally by facing the unknown army and taking some serious losses.

Remember to never leave a game without going over the highs and lows with your opponent, and covering any disagreements or uncertainties that occured during the game. Even in tourneys this is common practice, and a huge way to not only be come a better player, but a better sportsman as well.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think you need to find another club mate. Because as Sons has pointed out the majority of them sound like tossers. IG are a great army. Versitile as hell. Plus when you play IG you are infact playing 3 different Codexs as you can play Witch Hunters and Deamon Hunters as well. 

If you do get sick of getting your ass kicked by DP and Nids just buy a Grey Knight Grand Master and ally it to your IG. When you get beyond five hundred points then get him a bodyguard. The unit is expensive but who cares that thing will tear through pratically everything. Then see who is laughing and comparing stats. That would be you my freind.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

> the community seems a little pants in my area


Where is your area? Maybe someone can give you a hint at where else to find a game.


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## Nosotros (Jan 8, 2008)

Jacobite said:


> If you do get sick of getting your ass kicked by DP and Nids just buy a Grey Knight Grand Master and ally it to your IG. When you get beyond five hundred points then get him a bodyguard.


Amen to that, my gm would kick Calgar's ass!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

We talk smack at our group, but we don't do it to be a bunch of asses. Sounds like some people in your area need to be smacked with a large trout.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Or drop kicked into a river


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Or bitched slapped. Seriously, ask those guys if they've ever even held a girl's hand and I bet you anything that many won't be able to answer yes honestly. 

Don't worry so much. 40k's just a game after all, so do what you can to enjoy it.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

dude IG arent about cool flashy characters with 2+ saves and power fists
theyre about the sheer weight of firepower that 4230920488 guardsman can rain down on that flashy character with a 2+ save and a power fist because thats how many guardsman u can get for the same point value 
happy hunting


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Heres a point...The DP will get owned in the face by a beefed GM, and the bad ass carnifex will as well because force weapons don't count as inficting instant death, otherwise expand your army as fast as you can, play 2 different kids that have not as many points to make it eqaul and have a ball. cause now your on the same ground.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

No smart infantry group enters battle against a tougher opponent without armor. Armor is the key to victory! If not in actual armor saves, then in Battle Tank armor. Usually two or three squads would move up with a tank, so make sure to stick a few Leman Russes in there, and maybe a vanquisher to hunting scary enemy armor.

I have a 5,000pt armored company, so let me tell you, that is where the power lies. And never turn your back on the heavy bolter! I've killed triple the marines with heavy bolters over the years than with lascannons or missile launchers. Hell, I used to field an infiltrating chaos army with twin devastator(havoc) squads maxed out with heavy bolters. In a multi-tourney winning army!

To win with guard, have armor to back up your meatshieldsmen and use the most amount of shots possible per turn. In essence, it's financially expensive to have a murderous guard army, but once you spend the cash you see the difference.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

> No smart infantry group enters battle against a tougher opponent without armor. Armor is the key to victory! If not in actual armor saves, then in Battle Tank armor. Usually two or three squads would move up with a tank, so make sure to stick a few Leman Russes in there, and maybe a vanquisher to hunting scary enemy armor.


Actually, all infantry IG armies are generally considered more competitive than ones that mix some tanks in.


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## mgtymouze (Dec 7, 2007)

I didn't see this but are you deploying your guard in cover? At least the cover save should help your survival rate while you rain down flashlight death. Also this should help; talk to the emperor while you play (randomly look at ceiling and say something), make lasgun shooting sounds while you engage, as each casuality is pulled off let out a death scream for each, and don't forget to give the squads a pep talk before each shooting phase. These things usually unnerve oponents and are just fun to do.


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## Kapeesh (Oct 31, 2007)

Son of Horus, that was beutiful.

If these guys are annoying you then just show them a mirror, they'll probably either just shut up or start crying, finaly realising they are some one with no balls.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Guard can be a competative army they just need alot more planning and tactical sense than some armies. If you wanna see some decent guard builds search for some of jezlad's GT guard armies. There not the only competative builds, but it may give you some idea of what units work well and how the different units go together


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

actually, i would say that vindicares suck.



jigplums said:


> Guard can be a competative army they just need alot more planning and tactical sense than some armies. If you wanna see some decent guard builds search for some of jezlad's GT guard armies. There not the only competative builds, but it may give you some idea of what units work well and how the different units go together



yeah they are good lists!

guard are a very unforgiving army imo. iv been playing with them for a couple of years and i still cant use them right.


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## Saggers (Jan 9, 2008)

There is another way, big gw staff, kerb stomp is a word used frequently in our GW


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## Apokra (Jan 28, 2008)

Why is it you feel Vindicares suck?


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

dont give up just because people say your rubbish


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

Apokra said:


> Why is it you feel Vindicares suck?


if youre talking to me...

well, firstly, the points cost. a vindicare costs about 160 points if i remember correctly, and for that you get a max 6 shots per game, and statistically one will miss. he is a massive points sink.
dont you need an inq lord also?
there are much better things than a vindicare out there.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Apokra said:


> Why is it you feel Vindicares suck?


It doesn't. Well, it does if it gets hit by a krak missile. Boom. Bits of vindicare everywhere.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

110 points for a vindicare. You need an inquistor. You'd be better off with SM scouts or Ratlings


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

oops, points cost wrong. but yes, you are still much better off with 10 LD5 rat men.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Apokra said:


> Why is it you feel Vindicares suck?


he never hits when you need it
he never wounds when you need it
when he uses hellfire he IS GUARANTEED to fail to wound
hes just a waste of points, for 110pts I would want him to ALWAYS hit on 2+ and ALWAYS wound on 2+


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## HKJGN (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't know how old this thread is but i hope you haven't stopped playing either, I just started this game not more than a year ago, and so far i've experienced a couple of losses myself (With Space marines no doubt! theyre like, designed for n00bs x.x) but the one thing i've noticed is, it's not just about winning, it's about the story.

You wouldn't believe how proud i was of my Assault Marines in a League game for nearly taking out a squad of termigaunts and Three Warriors that i had to deal with with just a 10man squad of assault marines. It was brought down to literally my Sgt. and one tyranid warrior, both fought incredibly well, but eventually the Rending talons on the warrior finally brought my Marine down.

you feel an incredible surge of justified effort after losing, nobodies army is better than the other, dice rolls in the end count for about 60% of the game, you can't really blame anyone as Dice are immune to being biased, they calculate the fates without cause or concern.

if you lose again with IG, just remember it isn't the army, or you, but the situation at hand, like a story of life, your soldiers stood valiantly to protect the worlds of the Imperium, men of character in a galaxy surrounding them with nothing but screams of beings of unknown origin and the laughter of thirsting gods, ready to devour them like pawns. of all the armies of the 40K universe, i love, and wholly respect and admire the reserve men like the Imperial Guard have to stand toe to toe with Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Chaos daemons, and the Tau! could you imagine being one of them? a Hormigaunt is almost 7ft tall standing up, with talons as long as you are capable of shredding you into tethers and ripping through the toughest armor, i don't even want to get started about the daemons!

What your IG lack for in superhuman strength and ability they make up for in Firepower, the IG spill more lead on the battlefield than any other army in the Imperium (this is a fact!), they Rain fire from the sky with massive Seige engines of war and Orbital strikes from Country Sized battleships in space! If the Space Marines are Considered a sword of the Emperor, then the IG are the Hammer! Striking blow after blow with incredible force that not even the Marines can muster, regardless of their armor, speed, and super human strength.

If you want to play a little more competitively, i suggest taking out some high cost units, have either a CCS or PCS (Or both, its up to you), and take at least one 20man squad of Infantry, at range they can make 40 shots with a Command Squad near them, in mid range over 60!, i don't care WHAT they have, Terminators, Daemon Princes, or what, the math argues to differ, 60 dice rolls at 3bs means atleast 30 hit, even at +5 10 will wound, and even with a +2 armor save, you'll take 3-4 wounds, and those are just broken down by their least odds! a Daemon prince only has 4 wounds, a Chaos lord not so much 

I'd also suggest Veterans with Meltas, good addon unit when building up an army, give them 3 meltas, throw them in a Chimera, and do a laser light show of death against Their friggin Chaos Lord, What now? 3 hits a 8str and 1ap, i'm pretty sure most stuff is going to instantly die from that.. if not, it's almost 3 unanswered wounds, so its going to take a big chunk out of whatever you're shooting.

Then there's good ol' Yarrick, Is your opponent playing necrons? No? well then, they can't say they have the worlds only other Zombie in the galaxy! he's got a str6 attack, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 5ws, and oh yeah, he can't die on a 3 or higher, also, EW is the bomb. throw him in a squad of ANYTHING you're willing to go face to face with and he'll literally punch the enemy until they burst into coins (Scott Pilgrim refference). this is totally missing the fact that all wounds on him must be re rolled... that sir is an HQ of unholy origin.

We're not even Mentioning how his Leadership messes with a unit, or how he gives that squad stubborn, Commissars are already pretty cool units, he's just on the level of Retarded..

also, chaos players (no offense to anyone who is, this is a generalization but im aware people are different) tend to be turbonerds anyway, if they're snorting about their bloody Chaos Lord just remind them that the CSM are the Busted Ass pinto to the SM's Dodge Charger. 

+2 armor saves are only cool to a point, the same people take these units and throw them at a semi's worth of high powered weaponry, take that initiative, shoot them with as much Raw power as you can, i don't care how cool they are, they can't live forever .

I'm sorry pricks made you feel bad about playing the game you like, i hate that, Reason i quit Magic was everyone built the same deck of cards and it was all a matter of 'who can spend the most money'. Warhammer ain't about that, it's about who's the craziest and the Luckiest, Money and Rarity are not factors in the 40k universe, that prick is probably from one of those types of games, and such is labeled a Douchbag.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

HKJGN said:


> I don't know how old this thread is


The clue is in the date of the last post


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Risen from the dead almost 3 years later.....

This thread is completely irrelevant considering...

- He has LOTS of posts since then, indicating that he is indeed still playing.
- Its under an old codex, thus all previous advise regarding lists are irrelevant.
- Did i mention it was almost 3 years old? lol


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## CaptainFatty (Nov 9, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> all previous advise regarding lists are irrelevant.


I don't know about that. They can still put out a wall of fire if you need it and their tanks are some of the best in the game. Trust me, I've faced a maxed out conscript squad who passed their ld test for first rank second rank fire at rapid fire range.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

CaptainFatty said:


> I don't know about that. They can still put out a wall of fire if you need it and their tanks are some of the best in the game. Trust me, I've faced a maxed out conscript squad who passed their ld test for first rank second rank fire at rapid fire range.


A lot of the tactics and units are still similar, but a lot of them are different now too.
With a new codex, new core rulebook, and several new units/vehicles, a fair bit has changed.
The general ideas are still valid, but the specifics are not so much.


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

What an excellent Necro.


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

This is like going to a grave and shouting "Don't give up! Stay with me!" at the tombstone.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

We have a pretty relaxed view of Threadcromancy on Heresy as long as you are adding to the thread and its pertinent information.

Which in this case its not, due to change of heart by the poster and the new Dex etc.

Three years may be a record. 

*Thread Locked*


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