# New to warhammer fantasy



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

Hey all! never ever been into fantasy much never played or collected.....until now...

But where to start? Is there armies that are good for beginners to learn with or just pick the one you prefer?

I do like Vamp counts, warriors of chaos, lizardmen but which one or are these questions daft?

Any advice is good any other articles/ links would rock!

Thanks!


----------



## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

WHFB models are designed to rank up so are less dramatically posed than 40K; unit sizes are usually larger, so you will be painting more of them; therefore I feel it is important to choose an army where you like the look of the core troops.


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> WHFB models are designed to rank up so are less dramatically posed than 40K; unit sizes are usually larger, so you will be painting more of them; therefore I feel it is important to choose an army where you like the look of the core troops.


I dont have the rulebook for it yet so whats the typical unit size? looking through batreps and painting it looks between 20-30 but is there a massive margin of limit per squad? 

Also game play with magic?!?! is it more block movement and strategic (not that 40k isnt) but on a larger scale if you get my meaning? 

I guess ill be on Games workshops website for awhile looking at them thanks!!!


----------



## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I would and always do suggest that you go for the armies that you like the look of, having said that out of those that you have listed I would suggest Vampire Counts as they have the latest book release (of those listed by you) and from experience they're very dangerous and have a multitude of different options


----------



## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

hm im also new to fantasy and thinkin of doing empire

what do you recomend getting?


----------



## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

There is some good advice on Empire by older player in this thread

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112212


----------



## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Dragblud da scrunka said:


> I dont have the rulebook for it yet so whats the typical unit size? looking through batreps and painting it looks between 20-30 but is there a massive margin of limit per squad?


Most units are formed of ranks of 5+ models and there are benefits for extra ranks after the first up to 3, so many units have 20 (4 ranks @ 5 per rank) as a minimum. There are also benefits for having ranks of more than 10 models so some units of cheap troops can be huge.

Some elite units have an upper size but most units do not, however additional ranks beyond 3 have much less impact on effectiveness so the usual upper limit is how many points the player wants to pay for the benefit of a larger unit.



Dragblud da scrunka said:


> Also game play with magic?!?! is it more block movement and strategic (not that 40k isnt) but on a larger scale if you get my meaning?


Magic is a separate phase (unlike psychic powers which happen in phases) and can have a huge effect so produces a different tactical challenge. On the other hand many armies do not have a powerful shooting phase.

WHFB is very much about block movement and having a long term plan: most units have strict facings, can only see and charge forward and lose some or all movement when they change direction; they also suffer negative effects if attacked in the side or rear. So a superior unit can be decimated by an enemy that can get behind it.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

All armies you have listed have fairly weak shooting, but make up for it other ways- strong magic, rocj hard combat units, or powerful special rules.

Of the 3, Vampire counts are the only 8th edition book, and they maintain a strong presence due to theor strength, ability to raise troops and combine a fighter and magic general where others must choose typically one or the other.

Warriors are next on the agenda, a rumoured winter release might see much info invalidated (as has proven with all of the new 8th army books).

Lizards have the best variety of magic, but lack the strength of their own unique lore, their monsters lack flight to help them get the charges, and are generally fairly poor in comparison to others (especially none ridden ones). They also have some ranged attacks, but it boils down to an essentially situational monster and handler unit, and short ranged expensive skirmishers that suffer from a lack of support due to slow infantry and relatively poor monstrous infantry. However salamanders can be hilarious against massed ranks of skaven, provided they arent shot off first.

Unit sizes for a core infantry range from around 30 (for a typically average unit) to in excess of 150 in the event of skaven slaves. Most elite infantry units tend to benefit the most from sitting in blocks of around 50 wounds, not only do they tie up a lot of points, but are easier to paint, and often only get better as they get bigger with rare exceptions.

Note that I said wounds - this is because ogres tend to work in ubits about 18 strong, but have 3 wounds apiece.

A good value to aim for is 1200, then work up to 2400, that way you can build in blocks of about 300, equivalent to 2 characters, two average quality medium sized blocks of infantry, one elite infantry unit, two small cavalry units, or 2 war machines, each one doable in a month to build/paint and game with at a basic standard (says me with around £600 worth of unpainted minis untouched for a year or more).

Good armies to start with are empire, or beastmen. Both armies have a wide variety of troops/monsters/war machines/magic, and depending on how they are constructed and used together, can be weak or strong.

If you are asking 'is there a draigowing' no there isn't.


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

"If you are asking 'is there a draigowing' no there isn't." I must admit I don't care about being competitive I would rather have a massively challenging game full of strategy and conflict and losing than just walking in stomping and winning... Even though it can be fun

Ha! thanks for all your advice guys i will get back to you on decisions because i need a proper look and decision Lots of food for thought thank you all


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

What do you guys think is the least collected is there is one... and Im looking at the troops and do the command give any benefit to the troop as a whole or are they there to look pretty? sorry no rulebook or codexes as of yet


----------



## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Dragblud da scrunka said:


> ...do the command give any benefit to the troop as a whole or are they there to look pretty?


Command models each give a unit additional benefits and can sometime have different equipment.


----------



## Tor_Anloc (Mar 14, 2012)

Least collected and played army varies from area to area, for example I have yet to face off against The Empire and Dwarfs. Whereas Beastmen, Wood Elves and Bretonnians are well represented (which is rather rare) out of the 3 armies you listed the least played army would be Lizardmen


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

A lot of the strategy comes down to deployment and list creation. Tactics can help sway the game, but to able to well, you need to learn a what goes where. Thankfully the game is intuitive in that aspect as it can be quite hard to explain otherwise.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Late to the game. 

There is no easy answer in picking armies. A lot depends on play style, preferences and fluff. Some also choose armies that are more competitive; others focus on army appearance and stye/fluff. Also, playing something different from others can be more fun and challenging. One of the reasons I really like WHFB is that the armies all ahve distinctly different flavours and unique rules and the number of models and units one plays is a lot larger. 

I'd generally favour the newer army books. They are less likely to have significant changes in rules and, thus, you can play the army for a while without having to deal with a new army book and having to buy new models and redesign the army. The new 8th edition books of Ogres (ogrestronghold.com), Vampires (Carpe Noctum at vampirecounts.com), Empire (Warhammer-Empire.com) and Orcs & Goblins (Da Warpath or Orc_Goblin-Warpath search on google) are all fun to play and can produce competitive army builds. I would not recommend Tomb Kings (tomb-kings.net or kemri.co.nr or search for Khemri) because it is a different kind of army to play and is less competitive unless you really know how to play it. 
O&G are more hit and miss just because of the animosity rules and misfire rules, but Empire, Ogres and Vamps can produce consistent and reliable army builds. O&G have all elements of the game (war machines, solid infantry, shooting, magic, tough infantry in savage orcs, and interesting chariots and similar models in mangler squigs) and are a lot of fun. Ogres really need to be played at higher points totals but the other 3 new armies are scalable and can be played from 1000 points up. 

The more recent 7th edition book of Skaven (The_UnderEmpire search on google) is excellent, fun to play with lots of different competitive builds and options, and produces a top tier army for 8th edition but requires a lot of investment and assembling and painting a lot of models. Beastmen (search for The Herdstone web site) was the last 7th edition book and is more competitive and fun to play in 8th edition than it was in 7th edition but it has internal balance problems and is below average competitively. Lizardmen (lustria_online.com) is also a newer 7th edition book and probably will not get a new book until at least 2014 and is top tier competitively and a fun army to play. 
By contrast, Warriors of Chaos is an easier army to play and always competitive but the fairly sold rumors are that Warriors will get a new army book with significant changes some time between August and October would lead me to shy away from starting this army at this time until you know what the competitive builds for army in the new army book will look like. Warriors currently are limited in the lack of scouts and skirmishers and weak shooting options (hellcannon is kind of a mixed model) but has a monstrous infantry option that I believe is often under-rated. 
Daemons of Chaos (thedaemonlegion.com) are one of the most competitive armies and can be a lot of fun to play (with elite core hordes, small fast hard hitting elite units and the best shooting skirmisher unit in the game) but it is a 7th edition book (where it was almost a broken and over-the-top army) and that limits its options and there is a risk that it will get a new book within the next two years, although rumors of work on a new book are scant. Daemons make an excellent starter army because the army can be forgiving and is very scalable allowing for good army builds at 800 through 3000 points. 
Dark Elves (druchii.net) have the most options and is often consider top tier of the elf armies because of the amount of magic items, unique units and troops and hydras (which are the best or one of the best monsters and handlers units in the game). Dark Elf armies really play best at and above 2400 points. Dark Elves will likely get a new army book late in 2013.

Books that are dated but still can be very competitive and fun to play include: dwarves Bugman's Brewery bugmansbrewery.com web site is one of the best) and brettonian (roundtable-bretonnia.org). Both armies are proving to be quite good in 8th edition in competitive play. Books that are dated and not very competitive are Wood Elves (asrai.org). Wood Elves can be competitive but require a lot of skill to play and are currently out of favour because they have a poor magic lore and limitations. High Elves (ulthuan.net) came out in mid 7th edition and have great magic and elite infantry but they simply need more units and options (parrticularly their cav, chariot, and rare units need to be lowered in points cost or refreshed with more options added). 
High Elves are a very popular army with a loyal following and got a huge benefit in 8th edition with being able to strike first (re-rolling to hit if they have equal or greater initiative even with great weapons) but the limited unit options and types (especially in the rare slot) and high cost per model has made this army harder to play and win with in 8th edition than was originally expected. 

Lizardmen:

I, for one, really like Lizardmen. It is consistently a top tier army. My son is doing very well with Lizardmen of late. He was second best general at Indy GT tournaments in January and February and won best general last weekend (all tournaments of more than 40 players). Look for the Lustria web site (http://www.lustria-online.com/) for a lot of dedicated discussion on this army. The core and special infantry are tough as nails and not cheap but with augments can hold up in combat. The Slann is the best lord in the game because he he the ability to take disciplines allowing him to exploit the magic phase and to be harder to kill, can sit in the second rank of the Temple Guard unit, and can be both the BSB and the general. 

Salamanders are some of the best units in the game because they can march and shoot with ranged flaming template shots and the misfire consequences in units of two or three can be minimized. Salamanders can tear apart massed unit and the flaming attack cuts through armour. 

Skinks have poisoned shooting, which can be very effective. While they have shorter range, skink skirmishers and chameleon skinks can march and shoot and free reform to get into positions to avoid being charged. They can kill very tough monsters and war machines with poison shooting. They are cheap for what they do and can get in the way and bait and flee. 

Ranked skinks are very under-rated. My son runs units of 10. They can move up into the face of an opposing unit, shot poisoned javelins and then get off a quck to fire stand and shoot and redirect and divert units (basically get in the way) that are threats. They also can be run in a much larger unit with Kroxigors (monstrous infantry) in the second rank. Their speed (6" movement) allows them to get around and in position against most slower infantry. 

You also have stegadons that can be kitted out a number of ways including with a skink priest making an ancient steg an engine of the gods which gives a ward save to units in range or can damage enemy units in range. 

The oldblood lord and scar vet heroes are also excellent fighting characters for units. 

There is a dedicated empire site but I find it a bit scattered. I posted on empire elsewhere as a previous post mentioned. I like this army and it is a new book. You have a lot of options to make this a playable and competitive army, whether massed infantry units with detachments or heavy cav focused and a mix of war machines. 

Beastmen:
Beastmen was mentioned. It is a fun and easier army to play but requires a lot of skill to play right. Razorgors are great a single model diverters and to deal with light units. Beastmen are better and more competitive in 8th edition. They have decent core infantry but their monsters are over-costed and the limitations mean that the army typically performs below average in competition. 

Ogres:
This is a competitive army that is cheaper to buy and build due to the fewer models. It not has good shooting and good combat and speed (movement 6 monstrous infantry). It has a new book, so you know it will be around for a while.


----------



## BozlyLittle (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't want to say don't choose what you like, But unless you have 2 grand don't even think about vc. Lizardmen are easy, WoC are meh, Dwarfs are easy to learn and cheap if you don't buy the metal models. (Just use the warriors to make ironbreakers and hammerers)

Also buy a rulebook buy the armybooks and study study study. I bought all the armybooks before I decided on dwarfs. Fantasy is a heavy investment compared to 40k. Unless you have a liquid budget. Study like hell. 

Also pro-tip, Though you can build a super death star face smashing pwning unit. Don't do it. Size is more important than strength. Take duplicates, Don't waste points on useless magic banners and other magic nicknacks that aren't as important. Just because its the most expensive *DOES NOT* mean it is the best. I can't say how many times I destroyed someone because they thought their super death pwn face smash death ball was going to roflpwn my army. When instead the met a tarpit unit and were stuck for 4 turns.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Sage advice from Bozly. 

Cost is an issue, so is time and effort. The number of models required to play WHFB as it is intended (usually at 2000, 2400, 2500 or 3000+ points) is quite large. One well-regarded skaven player has often advised people not to start with skaven simply because of the amount of time and expense to buy and assemble and paint the army. He said it took years for him to finally get his entire army painted and to get a decent appearance score at tourneys. By contrast, you could start an Ogres army with relatively few models and a lot less cost and time. If you do not play at a GW event and your store or group or tourney allows, look at Mantic and some others for a lot of the VC models (you can buy in sets for less than a $1 a model from Mantic). You can similarly find other manufacturers that produce suitable halberdiers, speasrmen, skeleton, and cav models for empire, bretts, etc. But some of the special and unique models, like Crypt Horrors, Mortis Engines, Corse Carts, Vargheists and Terrorgheists in the VC army, unless you are really good and creative will probably have to come from GW boxes if you run VC, for example. 

If I know for sure what I want to run and can buy stuff used (which means a lot of work and probably not as well painted) and strategically on E-bay or used from someone through connections, I can sometimes get an army all in for about $350 to $500 a decent 2500 to 3000 point army (including buying a bulk army that has half of what I need). One gentleman in my town had purchased a lot of empire units (enough for about 4000 points of models) and sorted the various options from the sprues into ziplock bags and everything without assembling them. Because he was too busy with family and kids and not able to play or finish the work. he sold me the whole set for about $350. However, I am finding that I am spending as much as $2,000 or more (even buying on E-bay and through local retailers that give me a 20% discount or phone order discounted stuff) if I continue to play an army for more than a year because I want variety and never play the exact same army twice from one tourney to the next. There are always people that buy sets wanting to play an army and then decide it is not for them (too much work to assemble and paint, lose too much, or change in financial circumstances) and it is fair and right that we should limit their losses. Local independ. gamer sites and even online used listings (like Craigslist in the US can often produce some really good bargains). In fact, whenever I buy something I figure some day I might recover half of its cost if I decided not to play it later. 

I am also a big advocate for cutting corners, like converting state troops into greatswords, dwarf warriors into hammerers and ironbreakers, and converting saurus into Temple Guard because GW has decided to rediculously price the special models. Similarly, I don't mind people converting the older one-piece two hand weapon Orcs into savage orcs. I even bought the cheaper Tomb Kings chariots and used some left-over wolf rider wolves and riders to make wolf chariots (they look cool, like the goblins stole TK chariots from their tombs while they slept). One experienced player in our area got a large number of 20mm models of terracotta soliders (like from the tombs in China) for cheap and made them his zombies or skellies units and built his VC army around that terracotta undead theme. His army looked great and got a good appearance score as a result. 

Another trick is unit fillers for larger army units. If you are running a larger unit, then using some stiff material (like some use for movement trays) and creating out of stuff you can find in hobby stores and elsewhere interesting and dynamic items that fit the theme of the unit to take the place of say 4 or 6 or 8 models for each unit filler can actually improve the look of the unit, make it easier to set up and move and also remove casualties and will save you from have to buy as many models. For example, you can run a unit of 50 skaven slaves with half the slots filled by 40mm square bases with green "warpstones" on them dispersed throughout the unit.


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

olderplayer thanks so much it helps! I have thought and read and looked and the thing with VC is that i would totally collect them if they had troops of vampire thralls humans but slaves and also the cost... on the other hand bretonnia look great but the knights seem alittle garish which isn't a big problem. Skaven is now a no no haha didn't like them anyway! 

The last idea i had was a troll orc army using Different trolls and minimal orcs and goblins would this work even on a casual game scale?

At this moment in time I think that im erring towards the brettonia side of things but making them almost battle hardened and humble with more subtle colours and having the odd token shield or sword instead of overly colour vommiting knights which I personally don't like!

Thanks!


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Bretts are an interesting choice. You don't have to follow any particular paint scheme and can make your knights more uniform. They are still surprisingly competitive (with damsel casters in the middle of the second rank having access to the good common magic lore) despite having a dated army book but do require some time to learn how to use the lance formation rules to your advantage and the right mix of questing knights and core knights. 

You can also run a knight focused Empire army now that is competitive with many of the same models and some people do use Empire knight kits for their Brett knights. Empire will add demigryph knights, steam tanks and a few other items (war machines) that the Bretts army does not have and the characters will differ. Bretts will have peg knights instead of Demigryph knights instead (although one can proxy for the other, you will have to use a larger base footprint for DG knights). Thus, you can kind of get a one and a half (or three-quarters) for one buy out of it (although the characters will differ between Empire and Bretts in terms of warrior priests and male battle wizards in the Empire, as will the war machines with Bretts only having Trebuchets and the empire having hellblaster volley guns, cannons, and engineers). You can even share Brett bowman as Empire archers.

Trolls have limitations. I have seen 6 troll units be successful and some O&G players run single trolls as chaff/redirector units, but a lot of things have flaming attacks which nerf the trolls regen save. A troll based core army with the special character in a warriors of chaos army (with chaos knights, dragon ogres, chaos ogres, and hounds) is an interesting and surprisingly effective army.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Cost.

This is my VC army at 3k points and is undefeated in 17 matches against high level armies and very decent players.

3 Vampires on Horses
Winged Vampire
Necromancer

132 Skeletons (technically at 10 models a box, this is 140 models, but unit fillers work wonders here). You can replace these with more expensive crypt ghouls, coming in at 76 models, or 8 boxes without fillers
27 zombies (technically 2, but with unit fillers, only one box).

27 Black Knights (5 boxes, leaves plenty of parts to help make unit fillers).

www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112198

That is my full list, If you need its capabilities explaining more in depth, dont hesitate to ask. 

Compare that to Slaughtermaster, Bruiser, 2 Hunter or 4 Sabretusks, 10 boxes of ironguts, 4+ boxes of mournfangs and 2+ ironblasters.

I shall edit this post with a price comparison between these two lists.

Vampires (£306) from gw online store, using ghouls over skeles (420 ish with skeles). Ogres wade in at around £440 for a similar points value. Not much between the two, but while one has around 180 minis (with skeles, with ghouls, about 120) the other has about 70 (albeit, big ones).

Bear in mind you might get accused of power gaming with ogres whereas massive cavalry blocks are largely ignored competitively (hence why they are currently doing so well in the competitive meta, Ogres etc lose their charge and stomps, while the typically higher armour save resists damage better.)


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Cost.
> 
> This is my VC army at 3k points and is undefeated in 17 matches against high level armies and very decent players.
> 
> ...


So in all truth and honesty depending on the army build and minis you go for you spend as much or as little as you need and there is ways around it!

Thats the problem with me is that im finding it intimidating to think about the volume of grunt minis im going to have to paint... And in my position at the moment I personally know no one in fantasy stuff But wieghing up my options and discussing it with you guys does help!

Thanks alot Vaz  how long did it take u to paint them all?


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

About a half hour to spray them all black. 

Yeah Im not much of a painter. I usually pick up a half dozen on a free night or if Im having a quiet one with the footy, and paint a single colour, then get bored of it, before cracking out a codex and seeing what new bullshit I can come up with (like the unkillable vampire lord, it was unique when I posted it not long after I got back, and slight variations are cropping up all over the place now, tok many seemed to be trying to make ubercasters or red fury unit destroyers, rather than attempting to keep their 600 point general alive).

But yeah, painting is not my strong suit. I was described as a twelve year old that I was 'easily agitated' and 'not one to keep caged in a classroom for an hour' during my school report, I rather have fun, so game, and make rules, and free 'painting' nights end up as me getting smashed. Other times Im working or travelling with work - I have 3 different bases across the uk I need to travel to each fortnight, so rather than cart an army and paints, I just take one of my grey/black armies of death and organize games with mates in the area.

(I have 2 vampires lists, wood elves, 2 woc list trolls ogre kingdoms the start of a second ogre kingdoms, 40k 2 marines (allowing me to play as any marine, c, gk build I like), de venom spam and necron scythe heavy lists, and lotr galadhrim, easterlings and khand, so 14 armies over the course of 10 years in the hobby, with not one fully painted).

I do enjoy the modelling side, at least the plastic sets and kit bashing. Problem is, especially forge world upgrade kits, if I start painting a unit and then theres an update like the minotaur shoulder pads, or new bolters or style of armour, I have to get those, but to get the funds, I sell of my older models. I have ocd about them all looking perfect and if some are different excessively, then they go.


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

I see! well different things suit different people haha which means you do know about army lists and VC!


----------



## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Late to the game- 

My first army to Fantasy was Bretonnians. I was regretting it for a long time. I loved the look of the army. I loved the style and the story. I LOVE KNIGHTS. KNIGHTS ARE SO COOL OMGENJTBKEJFJ. Problem was I never won a game. It got to the point of wanting to LITERALLY throw them in the trash. 

And then I did a little research and I lost, but barely. Then I tied. Then I managed to squeak by a win, and then another, and another. 

Bretonnians are a HARD army in my opinion. Their biggest weakness IS the current meta(at least as far as I know blocks of infantry are still what cool kids are doing). But if you take the time to learn they can trample everyone else under-hoof. If you like Bretonnians, they are fairly cheap. Fairly easy to paint. 

The cons is...well...your gonna use a lot of guys on horses. And, well, very little else. And, again, steep learning curve. 

Vampire Counts, well I can;t comment on a gampley mechanic, are super cool. SUPER COOL. Dude, your general (which is you) is a LORD OF THE UNDEAD and you can play PIMP MY VAMP, which is really fun. 

Lizardmen- Awesome magic oh and hey, NBD or anything but um...THEY'RE FREAKING DINOSAURS. I mean...DINOSAURS. That's awesome. 

Pick the army you- Like the look of the best, like the feel (without playing them. Every army has a feel) and you like the lore. Go look on the GW site, look at some army specific forums. Get a "preview" of the army books.


----------



## Dragblud da scrunka (Mar 26, 2009)

Arlex said:


> Late to the game-
> 
> My first army to Fantasy was Bretonnians. I was regretting it for a long time. I loved the look of the army. I loved the style and the story. I LOVE KNIGHTS. KNIGHTS ARE SO COOL OMGENJTBKEJFJ. Problem was I never won a game. It got to the point of wanting to LITERALLY throw them in the trash.
> 
> ...



Haha thanks one question what le fook does :OMGENJTBKEJFJ stand for? but i see where you are coming from and need another sit and read session i think!


----------



## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I got as far as Oh My God and then assume the rest is the sound of an orgasm!


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Valid points on Bretts. I love their lance formation concept and ability to hide the damsel in the second rank of the formation but the S3 and 2+ AS are a problem. Empire knights can now get to 1+ AS and S4 with core inner circle knights and reiksguard (which are stubborn). Empire can also get to S5 or S6 core knights with great weapons with 2+ AS. What Bretts get is the blessing ward save in return but, if tar pitted, the lance formations do become quite vulnerable and will struggle to cut through a steadfast or stubborn horde with S4 or greater or AP while they lose knights slowly over time.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Their best knight unit is also the most vulnerable - Their Quest Knights with a ruby goblet Damsel with Beasts is the shit. Supported with a Life Prophetess and Verdant Heart for Regrowth, and you are sorted. +1 Movement Banner, and it can power through (with support).


----------



## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm always trying to convert people to the path of the Lady. 

Now silence about other people's knight's being better! 

-Prays to The Lady for a new Bretonnian book sometime this decade-


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hmm, isnt the pilgrim block unbreakable? Something along the lines of a Unbreakable T7 unit with a ward save and regrowth while dual Trebs reign hell, obstacled flaming archers lead by a foot knight BSB with stubborn hat and ironcurse icon, [email protected] halberd hordes and pegasus aircav running all over the place supporting a KotR lance? Refused flank like a baws.


----------

