# Why Defilers are bad



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Defilers are bad. The reasons? I'll go through them.

*1. Combat ability*
Defilers are unfortunately lacking in all arenas of combat. They have a Battle Cannon! OMG! One large blast... at AP3... what do you mean, it allows cover? That's right, the Battle Cannon isn't all that good because against most things, they'll have a cover save. Reducing Marine armour from 3+ to 4+ isn't that good, and even worse if they're in their Rhinos and Razorbacks. If you want another gun on the Defiler, say, another Autocannon to deal with the light infantry, you can't fire your Battle Cannon. It's Ordnance. Boo hoo sad story.

But what about close combat? It is a giant demon robot crab, after all! I'm not ok with CC Defilers. WS3 means that you get smacked about on 3s by everyone that can realistically hurt you, and I3 means you get hit before some of the stuff that can still pile on damage outside of I1 weapons - Big Choppa Nob squads (when charging) and Trygons as examples. Fighting against, say, Assault Terminators. You kill two if you're lucky through their Invulnerables. They hit you back on threes and really mess up your day. As a final strike against them, they're huge and are paying points for a Battle Cannon that they don't want anyway. Dreadnoughts do fighty more betterer than the big silly crab walker, and for cheap.

*2. Survivability*
The Defiler, as befits a giant demonic crab, is *huge*. You will not, *will not* find cover for it, ever. As with all AV12 stuff, this is very bad. You want to get to Close Combat, you have to run out into the open and Smoke Launchers are only so good. You want to fire your Battle Cannon? Well, best get into a position where you can see with it because you don't get indirect fire. Oh, wait, getting into a position in which you can fire your big gun means you're not in cover more often than not. Damn. Sure, Possession helps a little bit, but you're still not immune to having your gun blown off or your legs torn from your big shiny body.

*3. Cost*
In both points and opportunity costs. A Defiler will set you back 150pts, minimum. You want upgrades, you buy them (but no, you can't get Defensive Weapons). 150pts buys you a Leman Russ Battle Tank if you're a squishy human. Let's look at that in a bit more detail:

Leman Russ:
Front AV: 14
Side AV: 13
Rear AV: 10

Defiler:
Front AV: 12
Side AV: 12
Rear AV: 10

Leman Russ weapons:
Turret Battle Cannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter

Defiler weapons:
Two DCCWs, a Heavy Flamer, a Reaper Autocannon, and a Battle Cannon.

Leman Russ: Tank
Defiler: Walker

Leman Russ can move 6+D6" and fire to full effect with it's cannon.
Defiler can move 6" and fire it's cannon.

Leman Russ has an average footprint, and is quite squat from the front. It's weapon is atop the hull, allowing it to hide behind suitable walls and things.
Defiler is very wide, quite narrow depending on how you build it's legs, and very tall.

So, the Defiler clearly wins on weapons. It has more, and more is betterer, right? Well, actually, it can't use at least one of those weapons if it's using another. The Russ can fire at full effect, even whilst moving. The Russ has a LOT more survivability, with utter immunity to Autocannons and it chortles at the Missiles that make the Defiler scuttle back onto the shelf.

The Defiler can go into close combat, but as we've estabished it isn't very good at it. It can still actually *do* combat though, so that's a point. But, and this is important; it cannot Tank Shock. Sometimes, you need a vehicle to roll up and park on an enemy objective, going right through bubble wrap units and being generally hard to remove. The Leman Russ can only do this in a limited fashion, but in the interests of a fair argument, I'll say that it can still actually *do* Tank Shocks and that's better than what the Defiler can do.

How many bare Leman Russes do you see? Not many. That's because they're in competition with Hydrae and the other Leman Russ variants, and also costs a lot of points when Guard can get cheap things in other slots (130pts Vendettae, 100pt Melta Veterans).

The killer blow for the Defiler is it's opportunity cost. Taking one means that you're losing the opportunity for two Obliterators, who can take cover, have various weapons for situations (2 relentless Plasma Cannons > 1 Battle Cannon, and they have Multi-Meltae and Lascannons which is important in 5th because we have lots of tanks), cannot be removed in one shot, are more survivable against the Missile Launchers and Autocannons that are so common in this addition, and even have 4 Strength 8 attacks in close combat, with WS4 and 2+/5++ to ward off return blows.


And that, gentlemen, is why Defilers are bad.

Midnight


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Well what do you expect - they were commissioned by Failbaddon


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

It's still cool, so cool wins meaning you can take one with no shame, and heck why stop at 1, go with 2, if take 3 then you have a Wang, and a Wang is good, that's proven by science.

UNLEASH THE DAEMON CRABS!! *gribbles* so cute =^.^=


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## Sandshreeeew (Apr 26, 2011)

Defilers have a purpose IMO, you buy two boxes and make a Brass Scorpion and play Apocalypse with it  But seriously, I never saw the appeal in them to begin with, the model is too big and ugly to have any gaming/aesthetic appeal. Tie in the fact that it costs as much as a Land Raider, a Dreadnought or Two Obliterators, all of which can do the same job as it, but better, and cheaper in the case of the Dread and Oblits.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Well if the rumors are right, CSM are the next codex. So maybe they'll be good then.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Who needs to drop £80 on a Brass Scorpion when you can get two Doomsday Devices for a tenner?

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Already good, so can only be better, mmm 3 nurgle crabs in a proper nurgle army...that would be nice.

But brass scorpions are cooler than doomsday devices, and in apocalypse cool really is more important.


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## Sandshreeeew (Apr 26, 2011)

Apoc = cool "OMG WTF IS THAT?" appeal. I AM pretty interested to see what they do with them in the new codex though, I thought that the Soul Grinder in Daemons was handled pretty well, maybe something along those lines? Also 6th edition might change the way that vehicles/walker can shoot weapons and how many, as well as cover, so it's entirely possible that Defilers will become more viable in the future even with the current rules. There's probably still going to be better options, but it's possible haha


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Soul grinders are super awesome, be nice if basic chaos got them.

And there will always be things better than other things, doesn't mean you should take those things all the time and ignore everything else, that's just daft, and the opposite of tactical really, which should be about how to use something to the best of its ability even if its not the best choice,not just saying something immature about feeling bad about taking one, that helps nobody, and then compiling a sarcastic filled list basically saying "this is rubbish because" helps even less.

If somebody wants to take defilers how about writing tactics on using them, not just whining about how that person should feel bad for taking them, that's the wrong attitude to have for a game, and one of the reasons many of US avoid socializing with other gamers


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> But brass scorpions are cooler than doomsday devices


Entirely subjective. Personally, I'm a sucker for warp-powered WMDs.



Sakura_ninja said:


> Soul grinders are super awesome, be nice if basic chaos got them.


Models, yes, rules, no.



Sakura_ninja said:


> And there will always be things better than other things, doesn't mean you should take those things all the time and ignore everything else, that's just daft, and the opposite of tactical really, which should be about how to use something to the best of its ability even if its not the best choice,not just saying something immature about feeling bad about taking one, that helps nobody, and then compiling a sarcastic filled list basically saying "this is rubbish because" helps even less.


Obliterators > Defilers. Too many times do I see people take Defilers instead of Obliterators. They are not as good in any real situation.



Sakura_ninja said:


> If somebody wants to take defilers how about writing tactics on using them, not just whining about how that person should feel bad for taking them, that's the wrong attitude to have for a game, and one of the reasons many of US avoid socializing with other gamers


I eagerly await your tactica on the usage of Defilers, it will be most enlightening.

The 'you should feel bad for taking them' is a joke, but I understand that due to the fact that you 'avoid socializing with other gamers', you don't know what a joke is.

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> The 'you should feel bad for taking them' is a joke, but I understand that due to the fact that you 'avoid socializing with other gamers', you don't know what a joke is.
> 
> Midnight


Wow...what a jerk, guess you just reinforced my feelings towards not socializing, because that's the attitude I refer to, it stinks and is very off putting.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Wow...what a jerk, guess you just reinforced my feelings towards not socializing, because that's the attitude I refer to, it stinks and is very off putting.


If you're going to come into my thread and bash it for expressing my opinion, in that Defilers are bad, without a tactica of your own to back yourself up, then you should expect flak. Deal with it.

Midnight


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i think it depends on the local meta and personal preferences.

I will admit that defilers are outclassed by oblits at a global level, but that means nothing if you do not like the look of oblits/like defilers.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

> If you're going to come into my thread and bash it for expressing my opinion, in that Defilers are bad, without a tactica of your own to back yourself up, then you should expect flak. Deal with it.
> 
> Midnight


:goodpost:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Fallen said:


> that means nothing if you do not like the look of oblits/like defilers.


This is a tactics article, it's devoted to optimum output on the table. We have a fluff and a modelling/painting section for people who take things because they look pretty.

I hate it when people say that a bad unit's good, that's why I wrote the article. I'm attempting to, to quote, 'destroy this city of delusion'.

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> If you're going to come into my thread and bash it for expressing my opinion, in that Defilers are bad, without a tactica of your own to back yourself up, then you should expect flak. Deal with it.
> 
> Midnight


Except I never bashed it.

You started off poorly by saying you should feel bad for taking them, joke or not makes no difference humour + typed words = not easy to get across
Your entire "tactics" post is then basically a sarcasm filled wall of text that just in basic terms tells us the defiler is not as good as oblits or is just shit.
And then you insult me at not getting your "humour" because of me being sheltered
Get off your horse, its not big, its not clever and your proving nothing by acting like a little child

as to the so called point of the thread, People know its not as good as oblits, we don't need to be constantly told its not as good though, so surely a tactica on the defiler should be about using the defiler as best you can despite this weakness, but once again as most tacticas I've read so far here its not, its just the same old crap of calling a unit rubbish and telling people not to take it.

That's not tactics.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

is it not tactics to take the best option avaible to you?

if so then telling people what to take is tactics, and telling people that something is rubbish is tactics as it informs them not to take it


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

khrone forever said:


> is it not tactics to take the best option avaible to you?
> 
> if so then telling people what to take is tactics, and telling people that something is rubbish is tactics as it informs them not to take it


Not really, not everybody wants to take the best, its boring, some people like the challenge, some people like the models and background but still want to use it effectively, how does telling them "its crap" help?

And midnights attitude of "you write one then" is pathetic, he isn't helping anyone by pointing.g out the obvious, beating a dead cow and then passing it to somebody else to do, plus I could sit here for hours writing about defiler use, post it up and 5 minutes him and his followers (I do notice when he posts the next post following is usually the same people, not here long but I do notice things like that) are just gonna come along, say its a load of crap and everyone else just thinks "oh I'm not reading that now, its just another tactica thread with people bitching"


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Not really, not everybody wants to take the best, its boring, well if you post a list or ask for advice on a forum you usually want the best advice you can getsome people like the challenge, some people like the models and background but still want to use it effectively, how does telling them "its crap" help? then you would ask for non competitive advice on things or a list
> 
> And midnights attitude of "you write one then" is pathetic, he isn't helping anyone by pointing.g out the obvious, beating a dead cow and then passing it to somebody else to do, plus I could sit here for hours writing about defiler use, post it up and 5 minutes him and his followers (I do notice when he posts the next post following is usually the same people, not here long but I do notice things like that)(maybe the same people like the same sections of the forums, or else hit the new posts buttons and read/post on them, which would explain the "coincidence" are just gonna come along, say its a load of crap and everyone else just thinks "oh I'm not reading that now, its just another tactica thread with people bitching"then you would put non-competitive in the title so people would understand that its a fluff/fun tactica


answers in green

khrone

[EDIT] and also this tactica is actually entitled "why defilers are bad" and not "how to use defilers to their best potential even though they are bad" which hints to its anti-defiler nature


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

This article is crap, Midnight.

Not once, not ONCE, do you mention that it's nature as a CCC (Close Combat Crab) is in direct opposition to it's long-ranged and unable-to-fire-if-the-template-will-touch-itself weaponry, which dilutes it's ability to fulfil a task, rather than giving it options, as it pays points for both (limited) abilities rather than being, say, 100 points with EITHER two claws or a Battle Cannon (which wouldn't fit the model, or be as cool, but that's not the point of discussing how good it is.)

If you had pointed this out, you could have said how it's tactically inept by being too generalised a unit despite not possessing (pun intended) any genuine aptitude for either - a true CC unit doesn't have WS3, for obvious reasons, and a true shooting unit wouldn't be so blasted inefficient at it, either.

You should also have discussed how attempting to use it in the fashion for which the Soulgrinder is best known (Walk Me Closer, I Want To Hit Them With My Sword!) and the Defiler is also most commonly described, in fluff you open yourself up to the possibility of being Melta'd - without some form of Ceramite Plating, the Defiler is intensely vulnerable to Melta weapons, and in trying to put itself in 12" of things to make Assault Moves, it will naturally be in range to get popped.

The vehicle then, from a tactical perspective, is too weak at shooting (it provides anti-infantry, which is not what CSM lack, even if it WERE adequate at this role) and it is even weaker at close combat (which is decidedly inferior to shooting in this ruleset) so it present a tactical dilemma to yourself, not the opponent - this is the inverse of good.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> This article is crap, Midnight.
> 
> Not once, not ONCE, do you mention that it's nature as a CCC (Close Combat Crab) is in direct opposition to it's long-ranged and unable-to-fire-if-the-template-will-touch-itself weaponry, which dilutes it's ability to fulfil a task, rather than giving it options, as it pays points for both (limited) abilities rather than being, say, 100 points with EITHER two claws or a Battle Cannon (which wouldn't fit the model, or be as cool, but that's not the point of discussing how good it is.)
> 
> The vehicle then, from a tactical perspective, is too weak at shooting (it provides anti-infantry, which is not what CSM lack, even if it WERE adequate at this role) and it is even weaker at close combat (which is decidedly inferior to shooting in this ruleset) so it present a tactical dilemma to yourself, not the opponent - this is the inverse of good.


Oh man, I guess I forgot to say about how it was bad at both combat and shooting in my 'Combat Ability' section! And how it was bad in combat because it was only WS3, and how it wasn't good at shooting because of it's lack of options to shoot many weapons.

What a silly oversight.

Although it might help if you read the damn article first, dumbass.

Alright, now I'm done jesting, on to the serious bits.

How is asking you to give us your own material so yo can prove me wrong rather than saying 'You suck, I like Defilers so I'll use them' being a jerk? You say I'm pointing out the obvious? A simple "You're right, Defilers are bad" would have sufficed. However, in the thread in General you _did_ say that Defilers were awesome...


> defilers are awesome, nobody can say a big ap3 template ain't cool or useful


Anime girl avatar... bashes other people's threads without offering up their own content... sound familiar?

Get that Stella out of here.

Midnight


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

I disagree entirely. I run three in my Khorne army and they are ALWAYS the enemies first priority target. 

Just because they are not optimal according to the community doesn't mean they are bad. Boiling a unit down to " it wont kill stuff in cover and dies to Melta and Power Fists" isn't terribly productive.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

DeathKlokk said:


> I disagree entirely. I run three in my Khorne army and they are ALWAYS the enemies first priority target.
> 
> Just because they are not optimal according to the community doesn't mean they are bad. Boiling a unit down to " it wont kill stuff in cover and dies to Melta and Power Fists" isn't terribly productive.


Apparently deathklokk your wrong, and your a crap player for taking not just 1 but 3, that's the general consensus unfortunately.

But don't worry, if you just go out and buy oblits, you'll be a good player, and your guaranteed to win games, all you have to do is play wallethammer £40.000

Hehehe
=^.-=


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

no hes not wrong, he just dosnt play competitively with this army


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Deathklokk, I have a great respect for you but here you've made what is in my opinion a meaningless post. You say you take three and they always get shot at first and are high on the target priority list - Obliterators serve that purpose too. You can't afford to ignore Obliterators, so claiming that Defilers are good because they attract fire doesn't really give them any points.

In the end, boiling a unit down to whether it succeeds or fails is vital for a tactical analysis - after all, you have to say whether it's good or bad in the end. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that Defilers are bad. Because Defilers fail at what they try to do, they are a bad unit. That's really all there is to it.

Midnight


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

They are not the optimal choice for an army. That I can agree to from harsh personal experience. Powerfist, lascannon, and melta decimate them pretty fast, this is also true. Long range with them is substandard at best and horrid at worst. Not in dispute. Close combat is something of a bad joke, no argument. But this is a unit from the CHAOS SPACE MARINE CODEX. Obliterators are one of the gems that you can find there, I run them when ever I use my Thousand Sons army and am trying to be at least a small challenge. But that is my issue with this post, though I agree with the basics of your analyses I feel it is more a rant than a tactical discussion. 

The reason I say this is that while this unit is substandard you are not offering any options, ideas or TACTICS to try to mitigate it. Chaos Dreads and possessed get the same bad rap because yes, there are much better things to be had. By no means though does that prevent them from doing something constructive. Hell, even chaos spawn CAN be used to some effect. I have two defilers, I use them in a non competitive World Eater army so I am with you as far as the issues go. The question I ask is what do you propose to do about it? Can't change the codex (Please lord Tzeentch grant us a new one PLEASE) and people will buy them regardless of their lack of advantage. So how would you (or any one) suggest using them tactically to partially offset their flaws?

If a person had a defiler but no oblits how should he best employ his unit? IF a person has both but (like me) wishes to split them up how can they be used to a good effect? That is tactics at its core, getting the right unit for the situation is a combination of strategy and logistics. Tactics is where metal meets meat and I can't change a model out mid game because it isn't doing as well as I hoped it would. All I can do is try to minimize its flaws and maximize its strengths and hope that is enough.

I would love to have a tactical breakdown on the Defiler, they desperately need some love (like half their codex) but writing them off as bad is (while not incorrect certainly) isn't really helpful. We all know some units > other units. How do we get the best out of the units that aren't as good though?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Read the title of the thread. It isn't saying how to use Defilers, it's saying _why_ you shouldn't, because I'm trying to get a message across to the boards - Defilers, lone Vindicators, and Power Fist Champions are bad to awful and I've had enough of people saying that they're good. Rather than go through explaining why Defilers are bad every time I see an army with one in, I can just link this article.

I will concede, however, that Defilers benefit more than most things if you take them in multiples (Lanchester Square Principle, or something) - Vindicators have this too, and some vehicles are really improved by taking a trio. Defilers go from bad to middling if you fill your Heavy Support slots, but then how are you getting that vital long range anti-tank? Building a list around the Defilers can kinda work ok, but throwing them into a list doesn't slide. Obliterators, on the other hand, will almost always make any list better.

Midnight


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Agreed, Oblits are amazing. I thought the tagline was a reference for a zoidberg meme and not the actual intent of the post, too much time on reddit I suppose lol. I didn't realize that people were unaware of the mechanical reality of the defiler. Odd really.


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## chaosspace2 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Watches the dust settle*

Have we all stopped trying to kill each other with words of hatred yet? Nice to see that heretics are sticking to our true natures, Chaos space marines bickering with each other over tactics and how things should be done. 

My friend is always going on about how good his defiler is...it lasts on average two turns. When quizzed on why he continues to use it, he answers quite simply "Their shooting something rubbish while the rest of my army marches unscathed". And that is (currently) the role of defilers in my opinion, a tank shield, and they are pretty good at it. A giant walker with a cannon and horrible close combat weapons, ignored at your opponents peril. I am not trying to pick sides here, I am simply saying (as others have tried to) it has its role to play. The old saying "A bad workman always blames his tools" can be applied here, there is no such thing as a 'terrible model', they just need more thought as to how they can be used.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Midnight, i liked the article, but you could have saved yourself a lot of writing. 

what i would have written:

"Defilers are not obliterators, so they are bad. "

Even oblits aren't that great, it just shows what a load of whale dick the codex is when that unit is the best in the book.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh they are fire magnets for sure! That's about how long mine last as well btw. I use 2 land raiders as dedicated transports so I at least have a few lascannons to strike back with. I use them for that reason, for fluff reasons, and it really is a massive attention draw. By the time they die I have my world eaters carving their way through the enemy. That said I don't like the cost for the (Lack) of utility. I really hope they update it, the potential for a good unit is there but just got botched.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

chaosspace2 said:


> The old saying "A bad workman always blames his tools" can be applied here,


Very true, very true indeed


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sure a bad workman blames his tools. But only a retarded workman would bring a screwdriver to hammer in a nail.


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## chaosspace2 (Mar 26, 2012)

mcmuffin said:


> Sure a bad workman blames his tools. But only a retarded workman would bring a screwdriver to hammer in a nail.


Still do-able though, if you hammer it in with the rubber/plastic end


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

chaosspace2 said:


> And that is (currently) the role of defilers in my opinion, a tank shield, and they are pretty good at it. A giant walker with a cannon and horrible close combat weapons, ignored at your opponents peril. I am not trying to pick sides here, I am simply saying (as others have tried to) it has its role to play. The old saying "A bad workman always blames his tools" can be applied here, there is no such thing as a 'terrible model', they just need more thought as to how they can be used.


A 150pt shield is a damn costly bullet magnet. Why not use 35pt Rhinos? They don't slow the tanks down, unlike the 6" move of the Defiler, and you can buy a lot more of them - you can't bring down the shield with one Lascannon or Meltagun shot. They can also swap out positions in the formation with canny movement so you're always Obscured.

The Defiler, therefore, doesn't have a real role. Dreadnoughts do combat better, Obliterators do shooting better, Rhinos do screening better. So what does a Defiler do that something else doesn't do cheaper?

Midnight


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

chaosspace2 said:


> Still do-able though, if you hammer it in with the rubber/plastic end


But why the fuck would you bring a screwdriver instead of a hammer? Why bring a defiler when oblits are there? It takes 1 shot potentially to kill a defiler, but 2 at minimum to kill 2 oblits


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> But why the fuck would you bring a screwdriver instead of a hammer? Why bring a defiler when oblits are there? It takes 1 shot potentially to kill a defiler, but 2 at minimum to kill 2 oblits


Precisely.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

A Codex on the verge of 2 Editions old that wasn't even very good when released...why do you seriously expect there are viable Competitive applications of suboptimal units at all?

HINT: There aren't.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

khrone forever said:


> no hes not wrong, he just dosnt play competitively with this army


Actually, I've been able to take them to the final round of Ard Boyz two years running but had no interest in traveling that far for $300.

If the entire game was something where you plunked down your list and decided who the winner was solely based upon the list, this type of discussion would be valid. Since the game is based upon a players ability and a myriad of other random factors, it is very hard to say that a marginally less viable option is a truly awful option. 

I like mine, they accomplish what I need them to do. If only to take a few lascannon shots while the Zerkers close. They are a unit that may not do much if focused upon, but really must be dealt with. Which is pretty much my whole army, so it makes for some tough target priority choices. Which is what I call a good list.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> Actually, I've been able to take them to the final round of Ard Boyz two years running but had no interest in traveling that far for $300.


DeathKlokk, Ard Boyz was VERY far from actually being a Competitive event, as I'm sure you know?

I mean, the scenarios looked like they were written by a 6-year old...


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> DeathKlokk, Ard Boyz was VERY far from actually being a Competitive event, as I'm sure you know?
> 
> I mean, the scenarios looked like they were written by a 6-year old...


No doubt similar would of been said about any event he mentioned though


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Hardly, Ard Boyz has never been recognised as a 'competitive' event. The points level, entry system, scenarios and more all made it less than competitive. Now something like NOVA, is a great deal closer (still has it's issues but is a far sight better and will only get better with time).

As to defilers i have no time for them. They're too large, underwhelming for their cost, have an inherent conflict of role and are a bitch to transport. Give me obilerators any day. (Hell i'd even prefer Chaos Dreadnoughts, though dreadnoughts are just so cool and i take them half the time just for the hell of it).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> I like mine, they accomplish what I need them to do. If only to take a few lascannon shots while the Zerkers close. They are a unit that may not do much if focused upon, but really must be dealt with. Which is pretty much my whole army, so it makes for some tough target priority choices. Which is what I call a good list.


Obliterators force target priority too, in that you need to kill them or they'll reliably drop three tanks per turn. Defilers? If you don't kill them, they walk towards you at 6" per turn, dropping down a single Battle Cannon shot each per turn... but you're safe in your vehicles, so Battle Cannons don't really scare you. They have less than a 1/3 chance to kill you if they get a direct hit, and I'll not even factor in the BS 3 that makes your Defiler miss most of the time.

Midnight


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I do agree that Defilers really aren't great, but you may be slightly missed the point on one bit, The defiler isn't meant for attacking infantry or walkers in CC, it uses it's nice grabby claws to tear through the enemy tanks. 
Shame it can't because it's such a large rocket/lascannon/powerfist/other methods of high strength, low AP death, magnet. 

Looks kinda cool though.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Why would you want to take something that kills tanks in close combat when you can take Obliterators to do it at range?

*Defiler:*
Hits on 6s, because nobody will stay still in the face of a Defiler charge
Strength 10

*Obliterators:*
Hits on 3s
Strength 8
AP 1
2D6 Penetration

OR

Strength 9

Don't get it :dunno:

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Why would it always hit on 6's?, you immobilize the vehicle first with shooting, then tear it with claws while the oblits shoot something moving, nobody would be dumb enough to charge a constantly moving vehicle, defiler or no defiler.

Though I find it funny you go on and on about not being able to hide the defiler, yet all of a sudden your oblits which require line of sight are superior because obviously your enemy never hides the vehicles they have haha

In fact the defiler is superior to oblits in the LoS department, as its taller size means your able to draw LoS easier to things over cover, where oblits cannot


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> In fact the defiler is superior to oblits in the LoS department, as its taller size means your able to draw LoS easier to things over cover, where oblits cannot


FINALLY! An actual point. This is absolutely correct, in the same way that a Vendetta has that as a benefit...until the enemy shooting phase. Anything that isn't at least AV13 isn't resistant enough to Missiles for it to matter hugely.

Plus, again, while Battle Cannons CAN kill Tanks, they usually don't - you only fire Blast weapons at Vehicles as a last resort.

Vis-a-vis charging my Immobilised Tank with your Defiler - even if this comes to pass, the only Tanks you'll get anywhere near are Transports. Typically, the stuff that falls out has a Melta or two, and you've traded a Bishop for a Pawn.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Don't matter if its the same as a vendetta getting shot, its a wargame, that happens quite allot shockingly.

And I wouldn't want to fire my cannon at anything other than thinks, sentinels and other low av vehicles, but I'll fire it at troops, because troops are not always in cover, its not possible to keep an entire army in cover and remain effective, so hide your defiler (which actually is easier to do than some believe) then when a unit is in open ground, walk out and shoot.
If it is shot live with it, vehicles die, big woop, so do oblits believe it or not.

And why would I charge the transport if the passengers haven't been neutralized beforehand?, heck you could shoot say a rhino with the defiler, kill it, and then charge the passengers, if its guard, tau, eldar, dark eldar or orks or marines with no power fist you can pub a unit down for a few turns, your defiler is safe from shooting and power fists are not as common as 4th

Ooooh, and grey knights, you could charge 10 paladins and be immune if they don't take a hammer, and I don't see many lists actually take them, that's hilarious then


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

And how precisely do you neutralise a unit inside a Transport?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> And how precisely do you neutralise a unit inside a Transport?


Pad lock the doors ?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> And how precisely do you neutralise a unit inside a Transport?


Shoot them with your chaos marines
Charge them with your chaos marines to keep them busy, or bezerkers, or nurgle marines
Blast them with AP3 bolters
Lash them away from the transport and out of range
Hit them with a unit of bikes or raptors
In basic terms by using your codex


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Shoot them with your chaos marines
> Charge them with your chaos marines to keep them busy, or bezerkers, or nurgle marines
> Blast them with AP3 bolters
> Lash them away from the transport and out of range
> ...


...Let me rephrase. 

How, exactly, do you neutralise a unit WHILE IT IS INSIDE a transport?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> ...Let me rephrase.
> 
> How, exactly, do you neutralise a unit WHILE IT IS INSIDE a transport?


Oh I dunno, you could try...shooting it, or....wait till they get out *rolls eyes*


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Right. Since this is obviously over your head, I shall have to explain.

You said you were charging it with the Defiler. Ok, fine. You blew it up, why not. Now, it's the end of your assault phase, or at best, the middle. AT THIS JUNCTURE, the FIRST opportunity to materially affect a unit that was inside a Transport, what do you do? The answer is nothing, because you cannot.

Killing Transports with Walkers in CC in *only *good if they are empty, or the unit inside cannot damage the Walker, and is not Fearless/won't be able to tie it up all game.

I cannot stress this enough - it is a horrible tactical decision, and should only ever be attempted through desperation.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

I never said your charging a full transport.

Later I said you could shoot the transport, then charge the passengers
Or shoot it with something else

I also said you could tie up the passengers and charge the transport


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Got to admit this tactic is a bit ridiculous. Comparing units across codecies is never a good idea. I mean comparing any vehicle against those possessed by the guard is silly. Its like saying a DP is crap because a swarmlord would own it. 

You also left out the free possession and the fact it can defend itself in CC (Relatively poorly mind you, but its enough to beat back most infantry). You also in the first page failed to mention the one actual failing of the defiler, and that's how it takes a heavy slot away from the only reliable long rang AT units the codex has, and for what? A blast template? Most CSM builds do not require more anti-swarm or anti-MeQ as that's what berzerkers and plague marines are for. (I know you mention this later, but as a tactica you should update the front page with all the points discussed later).

I am surprised by the quality of this critic of the defiler. It doesn't even use mathematical break downs of the units performance or compare it against other contenders in the heavy slots.

For instance a Defiler will ignore 66% of all glances, and 33% of all pens. Something no guard tank can boast. If the defiler was even Av13-13-11 it would be horrifically more survivable then any IG tank. The armaments are indeed a bit underwhelming, but once again this seems to be in place to balance the fact it can fight in CC like a dreadnought.

If anything the defiler is a victim of muti-tasking. Something that gives you flexibility, but leads to meh performance overall compared to specialist units.

Note I do not use defilers myself as I use dirt cheap 6 man havoks (Damn DE) and oblitorators.

Sad how poorly the defiler has aged, but its not so horrible that it should not see use, that's a honor reserved for units like spawn, possessed, and predator tanks (My personal opinion, but they always seem like a bucket of overpriced fail)

I will say that defilers still have one niche and that is in a armor spam lists, with dreadnoughts and rhino's. Armor saturation is a hit and miss tactic, but if you are a defiler fancier fielding a entire list of units with a armor value can be a sound tactic.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I never said your charging a full transport.
> 
> Later I said you could shoot the transport, then charge the passengers
> Or shoot it with something else


With what? Missile Launcher Havocs? Prohibitively expensive. Lascannons and Missile Launchers in CSM squads? Take twin Meltaguns if you want anti-tank, you want to keep moving into the midfield and a Heavy Weapon will be wasted. They're only 'good' in Tactical Squads, and in that Codex they're free and you can take Multi-Meltas.



Sakura_ninja said:


> I also said you could tie up the passengers and charge the transport


What's stopping it from driving away from you while you assault the disembarked passengers? Even wierder, why are you assaulting 35pt Rhinos or 55pt Chimeras when there's a 70pts/160pt Guardsman or Space Marine sat next to it?



LukeValantine said:


> Got to admit this tactic is a bit ridiculous. Comparing units across codecies is never a good idea. I mean comparing any vehicle against those possessed by the guard is silly. Its like saying a DP is crap because a swarmlord would own it.


But Leman Russes are regarded as bad and they're better than Defilers. Doesn't matter that it's in a different Codex; it only matters then if you pit units against each other. 'Thousand Sons are better than Sternguard because they beat them' as opposed to 'Sternguard are better than Thousand Sons because they're more effective against a variety of targets'. Happily I've not seen anyone doing this yet.



LukeValantine said:


> You also left out the free possession and the fact it can defend itself in CC (Relatively poorly mind you, but its enough to beat back most infantry). You also in the first page failed to mention the one actual failing of the defiler, and that's how it takes a heavy slot away from the only reliable long rang AT units the codex has, and for what? A blast template? Most CSM builds do not require more anti-swarm or anti-MeQ as that's what berzerkers and plague marines are for. (I know you mention this later, but as a tactica you should update the front page with all the points discussed later).


The 'Free Possession' isn't free - you're paying how many points over a Dreadnought for a Battle Cannon and Daemonic Possession? Bear in mind that the Dread has to pay for it's higher WS, BS and I as well.



LukeValantine said:


> I am surprised by the quality of this critic of the defiler. It doesn't even use mathematical break downs of the units performance or compare it against other contenders in the heavy slots.


I don't need to math it out; Obliterators are better than Defilers. Maths will achieve nothing in this situation; mathhammer tends to warp things that aren't in happy vacuums, in my opinion.



LukeValantine said:


> For instance a Defiler will ignore 66% of all glances, and 33% of all pens. Something no guard tank can boast. If the defiler was even Av13-13-11 it would be horrifically more survivable then any IG tank. The armaments are indeed a bit underwhelming, but once again this seems to be in place to balance the fact it can fight in CC like a dreadnought.


So, you ignore 33% of all Pens from Missile Launchers. Leman Russ ignores them completely. You ignore 66% of all glances from Autocannons! Leman Russ ignores them completely.

It doesn't do very well in CC though, as Power Fists and high strength models will usually hit it on 3s, if it even gets to combat - massive model running _towards_ Meltaguns? Average life span - Movement Phase. Shooting phase, it dies.



LukeValantine said:


> If anything the defiler is a victim of muti-tasking. Something that gives you flexibility, but leads to meh performance overall compared to specialist units.


This is pretty much what I said - it can't shoot very well, it can't fight well, it can't tank much damage.



LukeValantine said:


> Note I do not use defilers myself as I use dirt cheap 6 man havoks (Damn DE) and oblitorators.


Nor me, because Obliterators are a lot better.



LukeValantine said:


> Sad how poorly the defiler has aged, but its not so horrible that it should not see use, that's a honor reserved for units like spawn, possessed, and predator tanks (My personal opinion, but they always seem like a bucket of overpriced fail)


I think that it shouldn't see use because taking one means less Obliterators and Predators (Preds are not as good as the Loyalist ones, but still not bad. Competes with Obliterators, though).



LukeValantine said:


> I will say that defilers still have one niche and that is in a armor spam lists, with dreadnoughts and rhino's. Armor saturation is a hit and miss tactic, but if you are a defiler fancier fielding a entire list of units with a armor value can be a sound tactic.


How are you deploying this army of many Rhinos, with three Dreadnoughts and three fuckhueg crab models? Because Manticores, Blood Lances, Melta Torpedoes, tri-Ravagers, and Death Rays will take you apart. And how are you dealing with these things? You didn't take any Obliterators for your long-range support, so Manticores are effectively untouchable for a couple of turns. Blood Lance? He's in an assault squad with Power Fist/Infernus Pistol and Meltaguns, or in a Dreadnought that hits before you with 3 Str 10 attacks at WS 6. Melta Torpedoes? He'll be in a squad with a Strength 10 NFHammer. Ravagers? Again, you can't do crap to them. They've killed or taken your Defilers out of action on turn 1, and your only anti-tank left, Meltaguns, are out of range. Death Rays? Moves fast, so you can't assault him so rely on shooting with your scattertastic Battle Cannon.

Defilers wouldn't be that bad if Obliterators weren't in the Heavy Support section, but they are, and can you really manage without them?

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Leman russ are regarded as bad?






Wow...just...wow, I don't even...where....I...wow.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Basic LRBTs with no upgrades aren't exactly regarded as the most competitive choice.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

You actually like predators? They are never a good buy....ever. However everyone is entitled to their own personal favorites, but AV 13 is not noticeably better then 12, and without possession they are actually worse off then defilers. If you facing Tau or guard and they have alpha strike you have pretty much just handed the opponent 150-450pts of your army depending on their rolls. (But this is irrelevant to the matter at hand). Mind you I find almost every las cannon platform underwhelming overall. ( I only bring this point up to illustrate that in all fairness predators are just as useless as Defilers, and if you purpose is to direct people away from lemon units you should do so in a fair and rounded way.) 

Also I tend to think that even obiltorators are starting to show their age. 75pts is a bit much by the modern standards. Still hopefully that will be rectified in the next edition.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Did I say that my Predators were Lascannon platforms?

Keep em cheap, give them Heavy Bolters. Far from optimal, but if you need an extra hull on the field they're pretty good.

I'm not directly comparing them to Defilers, either - Predators are ranged anti-infantry support that can threaten and suppress AV10, Defilers are mediocre jacks-of-all-trades that can kinda shoot, kinda fight, and die easily.

AV13 is better than 12 because all of a sudden, Eldar have to work harder to disable you with their Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons. Multi-Lasers have no effect. Autocannons, one of the most common suppressive weapons, bounce off you with no hope of destroying. It also means that Missile Launchers, another common anti-armour weapon in 40k, have 50% less chance of getting a Penetrating Hit on the vehicle.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

......Why would you include heavy bolters in a list at all? The heavy slot is for ranged anti-tank in the CSM book. I wouldn't buy a HB if the pradator was 50pts. A HB Predator may survive the entire game, but just because the enemy doesn't give a shit about them. With cover working the way it does you will only average 2-4 kills a turn...against guard. I can see your point about the defiler, but in respect to Predators I can't see your point of view at all. There is a reason you never see them these days, just like why you see defilers less and less.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, they're most certainly a lot worse than Obliterators, but six Obliterators and Chaos Dreadnoughts with Autocannons, or Terminators with Combi-Meltas is an acceptable amount of anti-tank - maybe a little on the low side, with no real method of suppression fire, but if you're desperate to get in the Predator you can work it...

Who am I kidding, I know they suck. I just have one and I'm proud of the paint scheme.

Midnight

EDIT: But still, something that is quite bad in a Codex full of bad units is to be expected. It's a hell of a lot better than some of the other options anway (primarily Land Raiders, lone Vindicators, and Havocs with Heavy Weapons).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On the plus side hellfire style CSM dreads are now usable, so the codex has that going for it. Great way to get another two light AT weapons in a list. Which sadly is something that is becoming more of a necessity then a option with DE and BA lists floating around. Good thing they are only 105-115pts.

However if they decide to put them in the heavy slot next edition I just may take a hammer to my CSM dreads.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Who am I kidding, I know they suck. I just have one and I'm proud of the paint scheme.
> 
> Midnight


*cough*


MidnightSun said:


> This is a tactics article, it's devoted to optimum output on the table. We have a fluff and a modelling/painting section for people who take things because they look pretty.


*whistles*


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> This is a *tactics article*, it's devoted to optimum output on the table. We have a fluff and a modelling/painting section for people who take things because they look pretty.


If I write a *tactics article* saying how you should take Dakka Preds for Chaos, feel free to display your one-upmanship.

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

No one-upmanship here, I haven't said a thing, that midnight bloke said it, have a word with him.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

> AV13 is better than 12 because all of a sudden, Eldar have to work harder to disable you with their Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons. Multi-Lasers have no effect. Autocannons, one of the most common suppressive weapons, bounce off you with no hope of destroying. It also means that Missile Launchers, another common anti-armour weapon in 40k, have 50% less chance of getting a Penetrating Hit on the vehicle.


they can actually glace you to death, 2 imobilized results = wrecked, enough weapon destroyed = imobilized + one more weapon destroyed = wrecked


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

One time I shot a defiler to save a plague squad from impending CC doom, and its scattered backwards and did half the job for the enemy. 

Haven't used one since.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

You can't really blame a poor dice roll for not to take a defiler, but then why shoot a unit about to charge a toughness 5 fnp enemy?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> You can't really blame a poor dice roll for not to take a defiler, but then why shoot a unit about to charge a toughness 5 fnp enemy?


Tried to lighten the mood of this dreary thread, but I can see now that's not going to happen.

/ABANDON THREAD


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> You actually like predators? They are never a good buy....ever. However everyone is entitled to their own personal favorites, but AV 13 is not noticeably better then 12, and without possession they are actually worse off then defilers. If you facing Tau or guard and they have alpha strike you have pretty much just handed the opponent 150-450pts of your army depending on their rolls. (But this is irrelevant to the matter at hand). Mind you I find almost every las cannon platform underwhelming overall.


Wow reall, the amount of times my predator has saved my ass is unbeleivable, take one every time over most CSM heavy support - come on 2 lascannons (potentially) and a twin-linked lascannon, can't go far wrong when u have key vehicles o take out.



LukeValantine said:


> ......Why would you include heavy bolters in a list at all?.


Dunno maybe u have a hoarde army that u need to kill? again have 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon u have 8 shots, and at AP4 most standard ork and nids won't get save thats pretty good for 70pts, and it would probably be much more effective than a defiler.



Sakura_ninja said:


> No one-upmanship here, I haven't said a thing, that midnight bloke said it, have a word with him.


Ur really gonna do that? - all midnight did was change his mind about something and gave a reason y he even thought what he did in the first place, and also he wrote the thread so tbh he can post what he wants (within reason)

*brushes self down and comes out of hiding*

Back to the topic in hand, personally I would go for a dreadnought over a defiler - its 60pts cheaper, can have a variety of much better weapons (in my opinion) and has higher initiative. Ok yes there is the 1/6 chance that u end up shooting ur own guys, but if u r close enough to the enemy and far enough away from ur own guy its doesn't matter. And when it charges towards the enemy on a 6, its only really irritating if u know its not gonna be close enough to assault.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

khrone forever said:


> 2 imobilized results = wrecked,


I assume that's a typo...


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

indeed it was, oops 

i meant + weapons destroyed


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Glancing a tank to death is no longer a viable strategy. It's far from reliable, with 1/2 of the results contributing nothing to the vehicle's demise.

Midnight


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Because they take up slots that can have Vindies or Oblits.

Sorted.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

:goodpost:

Like I've been saying all along; opportunity cost.

Midnight


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree with your OP Midnight, which is why I hate the Excorcist tank. Sure, it's decent, but compared to a Leman Russ it is not nearly as effective. I really wish that GW were more considerate across the board with effectiveness vs point cost.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

To wade in here... there is at least a single big problem with oblits. namely Codex: Dark Eldar. It is all well & good to espouse how the defiler is sub-par because it will die horribly to any reasonable anti-tank (it will...) BUT so will obliterators... In fact the defiler stands up much better to lance fire than an obliterator does in cover (a lance has a 27.8% chance to kill an oblit and only 7.4% to kill the defiler...) In addition to this fact, the defiler is immune to all anti-infantry firepower (poison...). Of course, the flip side of this is that the defiler adds almost nothing in the way killing off DE (tl reaper autocannon at BS3?).

further elaboration on some mathhammers (i know you don't like it, but it kind of disproves your point a bit here...)

Assumptions: Shots fired at BS4. OBlit gets cover, crab-boy doesn't

Lance fire
% to kill obliterator: 27.8
% to kill defiler: 7.4

Lascannon
% to kill obliterator: 27.8
% to kill defiler: 11.1%

Autocannon
% to WOUND PER SHOT obliterator: 9.25%
% to kill defiler: 3.7%

Missile Launcher
% to kill obliterator: 9.25%
% to kill defiler: 7.4%

Again - Defiler's are HARDER to remove than obliterators at range when using dedicated anti-tank firepower (anything AP2 or better). If you have a rhino-rush army & the only units you deploy on foot are obliterators you better believe the AC's are going into your rhinos & the lascannons are going into your obliterators... if you have a foot army - well, same story (and you're losing games becuase you're taking a weak-ass codex & playing it in a weak-ass way). If you're playing full mech, then the opponent needs to decide whether to fire their lascannons at your rhino's full of short-ranged melta/cc TROOPS, or the "meh" defiler... Remember, the "single lucky shot" argument is a straw-man when comparing two units - that single lucky lascannon is almost 4x as likely to kill the obliterator as it is the defiler. 

Further, My scatterdice must love me. My battle-cannon hardly ever misses (though when it does it misses big...) the BC is good at hitting parking lots as it is ordinance & 2x(1/3) to pen is (2/3)... - you also have about a 40% chance to hit dead on (better than 50% if shooting a vehicle) with the added benefit of being able to clip things behind said vehicle.

Now I'm not saying the defiler is great, but frankly it's not bad. Run w/ BC & 4 DCCW, walk up 6", fire cannon, repeat until cannon is blown off then run forward and charge something. Sure a PF hits on 3's & pen's on a 5+, but most PF wielders only have 2 attacks - which means in CC they'll be lucky to score 1 penetrating hit (and frankly once in combat glances are next to meaningless for a defiler...)

also... PROTIP: don't put walkers in combat with other walkers...

EDIT

_a bit more now that I'm home from work..._

Obviously you don't want your obliterator's in combat, they're a shooty unit with powerfists; it's nice to have, but not required & most people would choose not to take them where they offered as an upgrade. The obliterator's perfect firing option for every target at every range is what makes it so amazing. The defiler on the other hand (I believe anyways...) is built for combat - just not against other walkers (refer to protip above). The WS doesn't matter for general infantry attaching grenades and the difference between WS3 & WS4 is barely significant when only tossing 3 dice for a PF (the difference is less than 5% chance to destroy over 3 swings).

With no discussion left regarding chaos dreadnoughts I find I now enjoy running them TLLC:ML, this gives me a fairly decent firebase to move up with defilers & plague marines in rhinos. Groups of 3 rhinos move up a flank c/w 4DCCW defiler & dreadnought. If I get a firefrenzy result the defiler gets peppered with a pretty slim chance (around 30%...) the autocannon does any real damage.

Units move up & rhino's pop smoke, the defiler does claim cover behind a rhino or two because the legs & lower chasis can be obscured leaving only the turret visible - allowing it to fire overtop. Turn 2 you may be in range to move up, have PM shoot melta / plasma to de-mech / weaken infantry. Their rhino get's nuked & they get charged, defiler can counter charge against the unit (potentially safe from or isolating a PF as the situation requires...) & can reasonably expect to sway the combat by about 3 kills.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

falcoso said:


> Did you even notice that me and midnight actually agree about the true status of the predator?
> 
> Wow reall, the amount of times my predator has saved my ass is unbeleivable, take one every time over most CSM heavy support - come on 2 lascannons (potentially) and a twin-linked lascannon, can't go far wrong when u have key vehicles o take out.
> -Said build is 165pts...for a AV13 tank that can be stun locked for a entire game with relative ease.
> ...




If you actually have any points to prove your point beyond referencing meaningless games where you lucked out then please share them, but generally its accepted that predators are a toss up unit that you can include in a list if you really want, but are no where near being the bread and butter of the army.

Like the look of the green text more.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Oblits are more likely to die to ranged AP2 fire, of course. However - they cannot be prevented from shooting, save by death. Defilers can be damaged in many ways without killing them.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets keep it civil everybody. If you dont agree with a members views or tactical use of a certain unit, explain why, don't expect a reply 'Your wrong and your farts smell of dead hedgehogs' pursuade them you know best.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Handle, you missed out one crucial thing in your evaluation - that of LoS. Obliterators are happy to sit quite at 48" away, shooting down Raiders with their Lascannons. They can stand behind stuff first turn, and kill the things that can see them on other turns whilst still having Rhinos etc. block LoS to them.

Defilers, on the other hand, will get cover if you play with a large number of Bastions and put them in the player's depolyment zones, in which case I'd get some new terrain.

Midnight


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

In a game with so many rules built around base size, the defiler being the only model without one automatically makes you a cheater if you field it.

What was the sarcasm font color again?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sarcasm's blue, everyone uses that.

Midnight


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

@MidnightSun, I'm not arguing that defilers > obliterators (nobody is...) but my point is that they have a different role to play and can work in armies. They are not *BAD*. Possessed are bad, spawn are bad, shock attack guns are bad, mandrakes are bad. The defiler is a non-standard HS choice & trying to shoe-horn it into a backfield fire support choice is incorrect. You can take a 10-man CSM squad & give them a missile launcher - this doesn't make them a good long range fire support option.

As to cover - my mathhammers in my previos post were assuming your oblits HAVE cover & your defiler doesn't. doesn't really save the oblit's much... they still die faster to AT firepower and they are where that AT firepower will go when facing a fast army like DE / BA, or an army with a LOT of AT & lot of tanks (Guard) due to the fact that they are the biggest threat turn one & two until your rhinos close the distance. My defilers are able to claim cover behind one or two rhinos (depending on the angle, usually 2 are required) because if the legs count for measuring ranges, the legs count as part of the "hull" & that pushes the center of mass to below the "waist" joint which is conveniently located below the top of a rhino. Also, defiler's have smoke launchers which allows them to generate their own cover (move 6, smoke, run, assault? hopefully wipe out unit, consolidate closer & still benefit from smoke)


@TKE: 

railgun fire to prevent a defiler from shooting: (2/3)*(2/3) = 4/9 = 44.4%.
railgun fire to pevent an obliterator from shooting: (5/6)*(1/2) = 5/12 = 41.7%
NOTE this is after the roll to hit as it is the same for both....

as such the defiler vs oblit durability isn't significantly different (of course there are 2 oblits for every 1 defiler...). The %'s swing in the defiler's favour when looking at lascannons & dark lances.

Again, I'm not advocating defilers as > obliterators. I'm stating that they are not *BAD* and in a full mech list they have a place that obliterators will struggle to fit in.

sample 2,000 point army:

lash sorc x 2

TLAC:ML dreadnought x3

4x plague marines (5), c/w (2) meltaguns, rhino w/ combimelta
1x plague marines (5), c/w (2) plasmaguns, rhino w/ combimelta
1x plague marines (5), c/w (2) plasmaguns, rhino

4DCCW defiler x2

this list has long range fire support for low AV suppression (dreadnoughts)
close range melta & torrent for 2+ saves in the durable troops
counter-charge w/ defilers all meched up.

If you were to replace the defilers with oblit's they are the only thing without an AV deployed on your table. As their firepower trumps the dreadnoughts (lascannon / multimelta, etc) they will see the first round of high strength, low AP fire because the rhino's aren't scary for at least two turns. They will also see any long range AI firepower go their way in an attempt to force wounds & torrent them (scatter lasers, poison, etc)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

clever handle said:


> @MidnightSun, I'm not arguing that defilers > obliterators (nobody is...) but my point is that they have a different role to play and can work in armies. They are not *BAD*. Possessed are bad, spawn are bad, shock attack guns are bad, mandrakes are bad.


Then we're categorizing things with massively broad categories; 'good' and 'bad'. No, Swooping Hawks, Spawn and Mandrakes are *awful.* Defilers and Fire Warriors are *bad*. Then we go up through *ok*, with Tactical Marines, Boyz, and Vindicators. We arrive at *good* with Land Speeders, Terminators and Nobz, before hitting the *great* boundary with Assault Terminators, Scarabs, Coteaz, Sliscus, and Venoms.
Even that's not enough; you still have things like Obliterators, which go somewhere in between good and great.

Midnight


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> If you actually have any points to prove your point beyond referencing meaningless games where you lucked out then please share them, but generally its accepted that predators are a toss up unit that you can include in a list if you really want, but are no where near being the bread and butter of the army.
> 
> Like the look of the green text more.


Fair enough is all I can sayk: I know when I'm beat...


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

@MidnightSun, now you're adding shades of grey to a discussion that used to be binary. Good / Bad leaves no room for shades of grey. But since you didn't quantify up-front that your scale runs from 0-Awful to 5-Great I will agree that defilers sit at about 1.5-2. Oblits sit around a 3-3.5.

But fact is (and remains to be disputed) that the defiler has a role that it can play remarkably well if used properly. The hallmark of a good general isn't the ability to build a good list using only the "auto-includes" but to control the flow of the game to build scenarios that suit his army & put the opponent on the back-foot. By understanding what your peices do well you are able to put them into position to excel - it doesn't matter how amazing your unit of 10-strong paladins c/w apothecary is when they deepstrike infront of my DE raider-spam. They're going to zap one vehicle & eat 20 darklight weapons because you used them wrong. Same is true for the defiler. Don't load it up with TLLC / AC & fire from the backfield, wrong application. If you want meched up firesupport take 5 havocs w/ 2 ML & put them in a daemonically possessed rhino; if you're not worried about the mech factor, oblits; if you're not after fire support try defilers


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

The Defiler is a cool concept, nice model and has some very nice weapons and vehicle upgrades considering its points cost.

But I never use my three because:

1. They are a pain in the arse to transport easily.
2. They are so huge on the board they'll almost never get a cover save, limiting their survivability considerably.
3. No base, irritating if (like me) you like precise measurements.

There are two main reasons you take a Defiler in my mind:
1. Battle Cannon (which IMO is not very good, sure you could kill 15 models with one shoot but the likelyhood of that is not good).
2. A shooty unit that can double as an supporting Assault unit. 

I don't have need for either of these in my army.

Ways to improve the Defiler:
1. More vehicle upgrades (interesting ones not the ones we already have).
2. Make it smaller.
3. Give it a base!


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. The arguments (debates, whatever you wish to call them) are fantastic. So that being said, let’s start another one (or two).

@Midnight: Why are Champs w/PF bad? I use them constantly. (Note: backup to follow; pending your reasoning)

@LukeVal: Why are Auto-Preds w/HB bad? At 1k, they are great fire support, and for only 100 points, quite useful. They create a solid firing lane that nothing, short of heavy vehicles or something that can move all of the way through it, wants to cross. Since they create such a solid lane of fire, they act as a great funneling tool, which allows you to more effectively use your other units.
LET THE FUN ENSUE!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

CPT Killjoy said:


> I have really enjoyed reading this thread. The arguments (debates, whatever you wish to call them) are fantastic. So that being said, let’s start another one (or two).
> 
> @Midnight: Why are Champs w/PF bad? I use them constantly. (Note: backup to follow; pending your reasoning)
> 
> ...


You have to keep in mind that me, midnight, and other people that often critique units and list do so with the mind set of competitive play, and in all honesty codex balance collapses under 1000pts and over 3000pts. The reason why tournaments typically are 1500pts to 2250pts.

In fact under 750pts they could be useful addition just because they are a mobile av13 tank with a weapon that can split open transports. However in large pt games they are stealing a slot from the AT fire base units, something the codex needs to take all comers. Also with the warhammer 40k system favoring MeQ 50% of your opponent will most often be able to slowly walk towards a dakka pred and only lose around 45-60pts of marines in doing so (Assuming you get 3-4 turns of shooting, and emperor help you if your facing plague marines or necron immortals, as your shooting will be all but useless.

These are the typical reason I advice against dakka preds. However my advice is only for those interested in highly cooperative play where numbers and versatility are the deciding factors over luck. If you are not into this kind of gaming scene then feel free to ignore my advice.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

clever handle said:


> @MidnightSun, I'm not arguing that defilers > obliterators (nobody is...) but my point is that they have a different role to play and can work in armies. They are not *BAD*. Possessed are bad, spawn are bad, shock attack guns are bad, mandrakes are bad. The defiler is a non-standard HS choice & trying to shoe-horn it into a backfield fire support choice is incorrect. You can take a 10-man CSM squad & give them a missile launcher - this doesn't make them a good long range fire support option....
> [SNIP]
> If you were to replace the defilers with oblit's they are the only thing without an AV deployed on your table. As their firepower trumps the dreadnoughts (lascannon / multimelta, etc) they will see the first round of high strength, low AP fire because the rhino's aren't scary for at least two turns. They will also see any long range AI firepower go their way in an attempt to force wounds & torrent them (scatter lasers, poison, etc)


Ah, but Oblits have the Deployment option of Deep Striking on Icons, with no scatter, and right into Melta range. I'd only deploy them if I were trying to Lascannon stuff from T1, in which case I LOS block with terrain/Rhinos/both.

No question, Defilers work better in some types of list - and I'd like to point out I consider the Obliterator to be merely 'okay' - not even good, at this stage. Too expensive, really. Alas, Chaos struggles for Multi-Meltas apart from them.



XT-1984 said:


> The Defiler is a cool concept,


Absolutely!!! Conceptually, it is amazing, one of the few things Chaos has that are truly unique (well, Triarch Stalkers now, and Arachnaroks in WFB...oh, and Soulgrinders...but still) - they are a phenomenal concept.


CPT Killjoy said:


> I have really enjoyed reading this thread. The arguments (debates, whatever you wish to call them) are fantastic. So that being said, let’s start another one (or two).
> 
> @Midnight: Why are Champs w/PF bad? I use them constantly. (Note: backup to follow; pending your reasoning)
> 
> ...


As Luke said, at 1k it's not really the same game as we're discussing - though I'd actually relegate 1500 point games to a different bracket too, things change too much for some (but not all) Codexes, the balance is pretty different.

That said - I don't rate Dakka Preds of ANY variety, in ANY Codex, except as a deployment AV13 screen to protect from Autocannons and Missiles.

PF Champs...Would take too long to type right now, sorry. 
Will return to it, but hopefully Midnight will answer in the interim.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

All good points, thanks to all. It is getting a bit late, I'll leave the remaining counter arguments till tomorrow.
More to follow...


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

XT-1984 said:


> 3. Give it a base!












RAAAAAAWRRRRRR!


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Oh great, now there gonna bitch and whine about it being on a base haha


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> RAAAAAAWRRRRRR!


I like that usage of the arms... consider the idea stollen!


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## TheLaughingMan (Jan 30, 2012)

That is a f**king wicked looking Defiler! Man Wish I did that for mine but im painting it at the moment and may I say it is such a pain in the arse to do so! Gah! And it breaks all the time when I go to Gamesworkshop for battle nights, and mates places. So sad  such a great looking model!

EDIT: Through my personal experience using a defiler it hasn't performed as well as I hoped it would be most of the time it has been either blown up by a Melta shot or wrecked in close combat by Genestealers or a Blood thirster (Mind you I didn't opt it for an assault from either) so as much as the gamesworkshop guys say it is and all that I was a bit of a waste of $110 but I am still going to use him because I am a casual gamer and Im not really phased by "What's best" I usual go for "What's fun," but from reading this entire thread I may go and buy some Oblits just to see how they fair in my next game.

I must admit though, this thread got pretty damn nasty at times!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Putting it on a base allows it to properly function within the rules. If only that were GW's concern...

LaughingMan - I recommend buying Black Reach Terminators, some Green Stuff, and raiding your bits box for energy weapons to mutate into their flesh. MUCH cheaper.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

TheKingElessar said:


> A Codex on the verge of 2 Editions old that wasn't even very good when released...why do you seriously expect there are viable Competitive applications of suboptimal units at all?
> 
> HINT: There aren't.


when the codex came out, it completely dominated the competative scene. at least in the uk. with double lash daemon princes being the most popular core.
Im not sure why so many people hate on the codex, it doesnt quite "keep up" with the mech powerhouses in this edition and there are definately some units that arent as competative as others, but it can still give anybook out there a run for its money with a competative build.

The issue with defilers is that currently the likely things your going to face will be Bristling with vehicles, and there not great at tackling armour. Unless of course you fleet forward and rip a tank open in cc, but then you risk melta range.

For the record a tactica talks about how to use something tactically which may include its limitations, not slates it in an attemp to troll.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

jigplums said:


> when the codex came out, it completely dominated the competative scene. at least in the uk. with double lash daemon princes being the most popular core.


The competitive scene in general was pretty slow to move from Transports Are Deathtraps to Transports Are Practically Free Extra Threats at the start of 5th - and how well the Codex did in 4th is wholly irrelevant to it's power now. k:

After-all, in 4e Drop Podding Assault Cannon Terminators, Fear of the Darkness, Unkillable Harlequin-filled Falcons, and Nidzilla ran rampant. Only one of those is in any small way competitive now, and who knows what will happen in July.

And by 'not very good when released' I meant there was little variety or creativity in lists. It's basically been a mono-build army since this Codex came out, it's just that the Edition change has shifted what that mono-build is.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

jigplums said:


> For the record a tactica talks about how to use something tactically which may include its limitations, not slates it in an attemp to troll.


Apparently not.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

TheKingElessar said:


> The competitive scene in general was pretty slow to move from Transports Are Deathtraps to Transports Are Practically Free Extra Threats at the start of 5th - and how well the Codex did in 4th is wholly irrelevant to it's power now. k:
> 
> After-all, in 4e Drop Podding Assault Cannon Terminators, Fear of the Darkness, Unkillable Harlequin-filled Falcons, and Nidzilla ran rampant. Only one of those is in any small way competitive now, and who knows what will happen in July.
> 
> And by 'not very good when released' I meant there was little variety or creativity in lists. It's basically been a mono-build army since this Codex came out, it's just that the Edition change has shifted what that mono-build is.


You say that there was little variety or creativity, but it seems throughout the thread that you abdicate only taking the Very best unit/option possible in an army lists and that no other option is worth taking.

The book itself has masses more variety then alot of other books. I think generally this is the net-perception and i always hear the same about every army when people talk about competative builds. 

normal csm with their options are good, plague marines are good, beserkers are good, 3 useable troops choices is alot more than most books have

daemon princes, chaos lords and chaos sorcerrors are all good in the right builds and although lash is berrated for its over-use it is still extremely useful ability to have, and adds something in the army that few other armies can take.

when i have gone to tournaments there has actually been more variety then people give credit for, and although certain things will be the same i have never seen the exact same 2 armies at a tournament.

If you look on the net, and slate everything that isnt what you expect to see then yes, lists will be mono-net-lists


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I have never seen the exact same list played by 2 players either at an event, but I don't mean you have no choice of what exact units you use...example:

DP;
MoS, Lash, Wings - 155
DP;
MoS, Lash, Wings - 155

8 Zerks;
Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Melta - 258
8 Zerks;
Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Melta - 258
8 Zerks;
Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Melta - 258
5 Daemons - 65
5 Raptors;
2 Melta, IoCG - 130
5 Raptors;
2 Melta, IoCG - 130
5 Raptors;
2 Melta - 120
2 Oblits - 150
2 Oblits - 150
2 Oblits - 150
1989

Compare to:
Kharn - 165
5 Plagues;
2 Melta, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Bolter - 180
5 Plagues;
2 Melta, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Bolter - 180
5 Plagues;
2 Melta, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Bolter - 180
5 Plagues;
2 Melta, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Bolter - 180
5 Plagues;
2 Melta, Icon, Rhino, Combi-Bolter - 180
5 Noise Marines;
Blastmaster, Rhino - 175
6 Daemons - 78
3 Oblits - 225
3 Oblits - 225
3 Oblits - 225
1993

There is no material difference in how these lists PLAY. The units involved are irrelevant, there is no way to play Chaos other than 'run forwards asap and try to hit them over the head a lot' - especially when they lack especially in the ranged anti-tank department.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I have not used by CSM for some time, and certainly not in the last 2 years, so my tactical application of a defiler will be somewhat out of date. What I did use to find was that getting into close combat with anything (even if it had a power) was the best way to keep it alive and to tie up a close combat unit for any length of time. Unless it is immobilised it will generally only get the 1 strike against it in combat which will still need a better than average roll to cause a penetrate. 

Its ability to ignore stunned and shaken should not be overlooked. The battlecannon is weak due to the low BS but against horde armies it is really the only long range crowd thinner that CSM have. So there is a use for this beasty in CSM but the overall negative direction of this thread automatically consigns what’s a great model (but maybe not a great unit) to the scrap heap without trying to discuss how to utilise it more useful aspects.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

how many ways do tau play? or eldar? daemons? tyranids?

even space wolves and bloodangels basically play "some stuff to kill tanks at range" and "the stuff that rushes forwards and hits stuff"

CSM does have ranged options, Preds, vindicators, defiler, oblits, havocs, chosen and csm with heavy weapons it etc.., they are however supposed to be a close ranged and assault specialising army.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

jigplums said:


> how many ways do tau play? or eldar? daemons? tyranids?
> 
> even space wolves and bloodangels basically play "some stuff to kill tanks at range" and "the stuff that rushes forwards and hits stuff"


Well, since Nids are the worst 5e book by far, and the others are roughly as outdated as Chaos, it's a meaningless comparison.

Space Wolves are actually quite restricted, it's true. That's why, despite the Internet wailing and gnashing of teeth, Wolves have never been the best Codex in 5e. They have essentially 2 builds, Mechanised and LoganWing, with an honorable mention to TWC-heavy lists as being pretty different from their baseline.

Blood Angels have significant variety - they can play Flamerbacks, which are completely different to AssBacks and again to Las/Plas. They can do Jump Packs, or Sanguinary Guard. They can do Drop Pods better than most Marines. They can do a list of stupid numbers of Dreadnoughts, and one of 6 Predators - most of these are semi-competitive, but since most players aren't even really playing semi-, BA are one of the best books, equal to SMs, GKs, DE and only behind IG for variety of useful builds (as opposed to objectively useful units, where they drop down a bit, and others rearrange around them.)

EDIT: 24" is NOT ranged support. It's midfield. That rules out Vindicators. Units with 1 Heavy Weapon need to be cheap to be any good, and even then if they don't Score, they're of limited quality. That leaves 4 'reliable' options - Oblits, Preds, Havocs, Defilers...surely you see the problem?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> The competitive scene in general was pretty slow to move from Transports Are Deathtraps to Transports Are Practically Free Extra Threats at the start of 5th - and how well the Codex did in 4th is wholly irrelevant to it's power now.


Ah, the golden era of daemons!




> Apparently not.


Stop being so snarky, please



> so my tactical application of a defiler will be somewhat out of date. What I did use to find was that getting into close combat with anything (even if it had a power) was the best way to keep it alive and to tie up a close combat unit for any length of time.


I used to run them the same way, but the trend of the game shifted to mech and melta saturation so rushing it head long became more of a death sentence than a threat. I'd probably still run a defiler or two, even in the current meta, if the model was smaller and easier to obtain cover with.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, since Nids are the worst 5e book by far, and the others are roughly as outdated as Chaos, it's a meaningless comparison.
> 
> Space Wolves are actually quite restricted, it's true. That's why, despite the Internet wailing and gnashing of teeth, Wolves have never been the best Codex in 5e. They have essentially 2 builds, Mechanised and LoganWing, with an honorable mention to TWC-heavy lists as being pretty different from their baseline.
> 
> ...



i agree 24" is not long ranged, but it is shooty, and also a pretty useful weapon against some of armies you may face [i.e drago wing]. my point was not that it is a really competitive option, but that you can make a csm army that is based around shooting if you want to but many people dismiss any unit that they feel in not optimal. some of the lists like the logan/drago wings are highly unbalanced, and although they maybe saw 5 minutes of competitive play they are easily countered. The list is about as competitive as a CSM army that takes 30 terminators with combi-bolters and as many oblits as it can afford. Will smash some armies hard. Yet most competitive builds are going to have stuff in there to make sure they can deal with that type of threat, which is where overall the era of the transport comes through. Its very versatile.

Also i dont think dark eldar can be classes as competitive. would love it if they could, but everytime ive played them competitively ive wiped them completely with so few loses its scary. Thats neither here or there though

My main point is that if you dismiss all options from an army book that are sub optimal in the current meta, then in general all but the last couple of army books boil down to mono-builds. even the last few become limited and probably play the same. Your example of blood angels as an example, i think the jump pack, sanguinary guard variants that you mentioned arent optimal so wouldnt count.

My mate wom 4/5 games last big tournament[120+ people] we went to with CSM and he ran 2x raptors and 2x noisemarines[footslogging]. not the best units according to most, yet can do well competitively when used well


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

@LukeVal: Thanks for a solid response. I always view things from a 1k perspective, as that is the points level I like to play at. I would say that I like to play “competitively”, but not really in competitions if that makes any sense (in other words, I don’t like having what I consider a “poor list”, or a “just for fun” list. Though I’ll happily play against one). I do see your point as to why Preds are nowhere near as effective in the 1500-2500 points range. If I did take one, it would have to be because I somehow lacked Anti-Infantry support and had too much AT (which as we all know, probably isn’t going to happen in those point ranges). I do like the fact that at 1kpoints, there are so many differences to the 40k game, which is the main reason I like to play at that level. The chaos codex offers quite a few useful options at 1k, which is nice since it seems to become more limited at higher ranges (hence this discussion). I don’t disregard advice based on whether the game is competitive or not, but I do compare it against the points level that I play at. That being said, it’s probably why I have a different opinion then you and Midnight as to what is a good or bad unit is (Such as PF Champs or Auto-Preds). 

@TheKingElessar: Same as above. Out of curiousity though, why don’t you think they are effective in a 1k points game? They basically act as another squad of marines with better armor and an auto-cannon for 100pts. That, to me, makes them very worth their points. Normally at 1k, you’re not worried about your slots, since you will never fill them up anyway. Because of that, I can use the Pred to supplement my squads and add reasonable range support. Otherwise, I would have to either take havocs or Chosen with a rhino which comes out to many more points (*no codex with me at the moment*) for the same effect. I could take one more Oblit, but it doesn’t do the same thing. Actually, I would argue that nothing in the codex really does, especially for 100pts. I’m not saying everyone should bring one, and the rest of your army has to reflect your need for one (as outlined above), but they certainly have their uses, and work quite well in a 1k game. Again, I can’t argue that above this points level they are terribly useful, since they take up at Heavy slot, and you can easily fit in enough troops to perform the same task (and hold objectives). I still say they work well as I listed though, and that puts them in the good catagory (3 out of 5 at least).

PF/PW Champ anyone?


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> PF/PW Champ anyone?


I believe the consensus is to keep your squads small and shooty. 5 man plague squads with 2 specials in a rhino is more cost effective than 7 featuring plague champ. Its that MSU mindset.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I normally go for a PW over a fist cus I don't really assault vehicles, but to be honest it depends on whether I want a squad to do one thing or another.

So something like zerkers I would say are much more infatry CC so a power weapon would be used there. Granted the strength bonus would make it more likely to kill on averag a model per assault but going last every time isn't worth it and it saves 10pts

Standard CSM I would probably put one in if there is a melta in there too, so basically you would walk by a tank and shoot it, if the melta fails then assault to get the job done... maybe.

Again something similar with Plague marines but I would be more tempted to go for a PW because the feel no pain wouldn't really be put to full effect going tank killing, another squad can do this which is more likely to get killed so the plague marines can take on more stubborn tasks.

Terminators I would go 70/30 PW/Chain fist (maybe a lightning claw or two as well probably on an HQ), granted they are more than PF so if I ran out of points it would probably be those which I cut down on first. Then the terminators are balanced for both scenarios - infantry (so you don't have them all attacking last all the time and can get rid of some of them before they attack) or they happen to walk by a tank screaming for a whole to punched through. Because chain fists are 2d6 for armour penetration that is why i would hav less than power weapons but if it was PF I would go for 50/50 just to be sure.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

@jigplums & TKE (btw, tke - read your stuff on 3++ too, generally like it)

I have to disagree with your comments re SW & DE.

I'll deal with DE first since they're the easiest... the DE codex is the single best 5th ed book released so far. There is a marked variety in types of builds possible, you can be successful with creating fast lists that haven't a single AV point at all (beasts, scourge, hellions, lance trueborn, wyches comign through portals) or you can do a variety of full mech lists, or hybrids. DE suffers at a "competitive level" because most tournaments suffer from a distinct lack of correct terrain meaning the DE player can't make use of his speed to counter his fragility by placing obstacles between you.

I have personally placed on the top table in my region in both tournaments I have taken my 5th ed DE to (the first time I had to play on a table set up for fantasy against dual storm raven BA... not fun when the terrain consists of 2 fences and, two forrests and the chaos alter (thing with the giant skulls....) NO LOS blocking terrain at all.


Also to SW, there is as much variety in their codex as there is in the C:SM book. Sure you're basically stuck taking long fangs in your heavy support & grey hunters in your troops, but the variety of HQ, Elite & Fast options available (that are competitive) is astounding! Wolf guard, dreadnoughts, wolf scouts lone wolves are all competitive choices with great roles to play. Each HQ (except the iron wolf & chaplain...) is fantastic. Rune priests offer some of the best psychic powers & arguably the best imperial psychic defence out there right now, wolf lords & battle leaders offer exceptional killiness at almost any points level. In the fast slot you have bikers & twc, of course twc are so ridiculously OTT that it is rare to see anyone take anything but them, but that doesn't mean sW bikers are bad.

While you are limited with your wolf guard due to them not having access to heavy weapons, you have the ability to build very aggressive squads that move up & bash face with loads of PW / rending attacks, or you can build squads that sit at 24" & control the midfield daring oponents to charge them.

Both are great books. DE suffer from a logistical problem at competive events (and also suffer on soft scores as they have no well defined "fluff builds beyond limiting yourself to full on wych cults, kabals, or flesh covens... same flaw as chaos....) SW suffer, not because they lack for competitive options, but because they have a few choices that are so obviously auto-includes the other stuff gets glossed over.

I can't remember, think it was TKE who posted earlier about 14 "dud" units in codex SW... he's wrong, named characters never count because frankly, they're usually bad & when you get a good one (slicius, sathonyx, kharn, draigo, coteaz, etc) it is a coveted diamond in the rough. The only "BAD" choices in C:SW are bloodclaws & their varients. And they're only bad due to being WS3 assault troops....


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

yeah agree that terrain makes a big difference to an army like darkeldar. although when i have played them there's been more terrain then you describe, there's certainly not enough for them to keep everything hidden.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

PF/PW Champ anyone?

PW generally = a waste of points. Your basically paying 45pts+ to average one extra marine kill a turn. In fact PF's and PW's on regular marines is a bit of a idiot tax as 2-3 armor ignoring attacks is generally never going to win a combat unless your picking on inferior enemies.

PF on the other hand have their uses with any unit with 3+ attacks, and are particularly deadly on berzerkers (Why the hell do you care if 1 model doesn't have int4-5?). A berzerker champ is st9 on the charge with 4 attack at WS5, that's enough to auto remove a dreadnought or rip through a MC in 1-2 turns of combat. However putting a fist on a regular squad or on every squad will quickly lead your army to hemorrhage points all over the place as you will most often end up spending 150pts on units that will most likely never see combat.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

the argument for PF is what happens if/when you get stuck in with a dreadnought? The dreadnought (unless it is a furiouso) kills 2 or 3 marines & the PF has a chance to gib it back (reference the previous 11 pages of discussion on why defilers are bad...)

Also the chance to 1-shot gib a character is tough to pass up.

I run 2 chaos armies - emperor's children with assaulty noise marines (non-comp, I know) w/ DS/PF champs - the PF always performs. My other army is death guard - I run 2x plasma squads & 2x melta squads. As the melta squad is up close to drop melta shots I throw PF's on them so they can lay some hurt down for the next 5 rounds of combat - killing one or two marines every turn is better than killing zero or one...


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

Hmmm.... I do see what your saying. Once again, it's seems like we are more or less on the same page, it was more in the wording than anything. I primarily use a PF on my Zerker squad, and then I have one built onto a standard marine, which has it's uses depending on where he's placed. The Zerker always preforms well. The standard marine is sort of hit or miss. I've placed him with a unit of chosen before which worked out fairly well. Other than that, if I do play him, he is normally attached to a larger unit I send flanking up one side. I completely understand why you would say that a PF is points sink. It' hard to add a PF exactly where it's needed all of the time, and that can easily be a waste of 40pts if he dies prior to being able to use it. Still though, I have seen it save a game or two before (not just mine), and it's hard for me to want to run an army without any of them at all. Again, probably a 3 out of 5.


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## TheLaughingMan (Jan 30, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Putting it on a base allows it to properly function within the rules. If only that were GW's concern...
> 
> LaughingMan - I recommend buying Black Reach Terminators, some Green Stuff, and raiding your bits box for energy weapons to mutate into their flesh. MUCH cheaper.


Oh I wish I had the time and money at the moment to do so, I've got the creativity just not the time! SO I might consider proxying some terminators. I also don't like to look of CSM raptors so I might order some off Forge World as they are less likely to fall over and chip (I have a squad of metal raptors!) so annoying!

@CTPKilljoy
I have to Agree with you and the Zerks and Plauge Marines, I have a squad of PM and for the points that they are worth have been very useful and have caused some havoc on the field, even though my tactics aren't the best and the dice gods are always against me. A PF seems to be a good option in my opinion because if it hits you've always guareented a kill at least and having something die is always a nice feeling. I can't say so much for a PW, but I haven't had much experience with them so my input on that isn't very valid at all.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Pushed for time - but a PF Champ usually has two Attacks. 

This means, he hits a Dreadnought 50%, ie once, and rolls to damage AV12 witrh S8, so 50%, so half a damage, only 1/3 chance of a Pen, which has a further 1/3 of destroying them. Striking AFTER his squad gets mulched.

If it were a Chainfist, go nuts, well worth it, almost guaranteed Pen result!

But a Power Fist is a waste of points for killing Dreads.


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## CPT Killjoy (Feb 15, 2012)

@TheKingElessar:

If only they would let me put a chain fist on a normal marine...... 

I won't argue numbers, because you are right of course. And I won't say I go Dread hunting with a single squad with a PF (because that would be stupid..). But again, should the situation arise (which it often does), where a Dread or some elite infantry come to destroy my well placed squad, it always seems to pay off having a PF availible rather then having the whole squad get destroyed with no reply. Of course this has to be balanced with points cost, since they are expensive as all hell, and therefore can't be given to everyone.


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