# Luke's desired fixes for the next CSM codex.



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Before I start I want to state this is A) not a wish list, and B) Not a thread for ragging on the current codex. However this thread is were I will point out minor fixes that would go a long way to making the CSM codex more balanced and allow for more flexibility and diversity in army builds. Besides at the very least those that read this thread can get a better picture of the inner working of my mind as a veteran CSM gamer, who has moved beyond lamenting the failed design strategies of this codex. Also as this is a ongoing thread I will split my choices into roster selections.

Note that some of the points costs I suggest are not in line with most loyalist codexes. The reason for this should be obvious, and that is to encourage CSM player to design different forces from their loyalist counter parts. I really believe this is the design scheme that should be utilized to further separate loyalist from CSM.

*General*
1) Laz cannons are almost prohibitively expensive, as such they should be dropped to 20-30 points for infantry. Seriously their is a reason they are such a rare sight in CSM armies.
Troops.

Troops
*CSM's*
-1) As rhino's can only hold 10 troops it would be logical to allow the selection of a heavy or second special weapons for 9 marine units, after all I don't think gamers should have to choice between attaching a character to these squads over attaching said weapons. (This fault is only magnified by how plague marines do not have this restriction and are generally better in most ways).
-2) (Aspiring champion) Drop the cost of plasma pistols to 10 or even five points, I mean seriously back when they gave +1A to PFs the heightened points cost made sense, but really 30 points for the ability to take one str7 ap2 shot come on. (Not to mention the whole PF champ killing himself problem with over heats really makes the 15pt plasma pistol look stupid beyond reason)
-3) (Aspiring champ) Drop the cost of a power weapon to 5-10. After all on average a PW equipped champ will only net one extra meq kill a turn, and provides no additional defense against swarm, MC, or vehicles yet is only 10 points less then a PF. (Just ask your self how many times have you seen a serious CSM player put a PW on a champ?).

*Noise marines *(there is a reason they are almost none existent in tournaments)
-1) Drop them to 22pts a model and include the sonic weapon, I mean for the love of Slaanesh as it stands they are the single most expensive troop in the codex and also the weakest of the cult troops (weakness and high cost should never go together unless the unit generates some none direct bonus that counteracts these failings)
-2) Failing the above statement they could just chose to buff the gun itself to bring it into lines with the other dedicated mid range shooting units like purifiers/stern guard. (I always thought it was odd that sonic weapons are assault bolters that can fire as heavies at 24", after all nothing in the fluff supports this stat bar so why is it their?)
*
Berzerkers*
1) ....Drop Plasma pistols to 10pts at the most.

*Thousand sons*
- Make sorcs not retardedly over costed. I mean what the hell a sorc counts for 40% of the cost of modest sized units, and will often kill himself with the 6 psychic tests he will take over the course of a game. (Base lever sorc is 70pts...am I the only one that thinks paying 20pts less then a lord for a asp champ with force weapon is a bit stupid?)

Fast attack
*Bikes.*
1) Drop the cost to 28-29 points so there is a reason to take more then 4 of the buggers in competitive lists.
2) They need something extra to make them unique as they are out shun in every way by loyalists. Either make them have more possible assault weapons or increase the cost of all ranged weapon upgrades and offer cheap CC enhancement options.

*Raptors*
1) Either drop them to 19-18 points each or..
2) Add the option to take 3 assault weapons or...
3) Give them some veteran skill to differentiate them from jump marines. I would like to see either furious charge/hit and run.
*
Spawn*
-1) Sweet jesus remove these from fast attack and move them to the none FoC slot like GD and Lesser daemons.

*Furies*
-Add them to fast attack as they still fit with the generalized feel of the CSM codex as they are the only undivided daemons. (Not with the CD stats though as that would still result with no one taking them)

None FoC
-Lesser daemons
1) Assuming they remain in the Codex they should be dropped to 12-11pts as they are not worth 13pts despite marine stats (FWI GW 50%+ of a marines cost is for the bolter and the 3+ armor save)
2) should be able to take marks like every other squad.

*GD*
- 1) Get rid of the need for a champion to have to be sacrificed, either make it able to come out of any marine or get rid of the need to sacrifice a model period ( I know people love these idiotic counter productive rules, as they believe they capture the chaotic nature of chaos, but really fluff or not I don't like the idea of a warlord or asp champion willingly sacrificing himself for some vanilla greater daemon that will vanish after a short period of time). 
- 2) Two words eternal warrior! (it is still a daemon damn it!)

Elites
*Terminators*
1) Actually provide all the combi-weapons you ass hats!
2) Drop the cost of a reaper auto cannon to 10-15pts so its actually a appealing option. (Its not a assault cannon, and is in no way equal to one so its price tag should reflect this)
3) Drop the cost of marks (They are the uber elite they really should be favored by the gods a little bit more then some idiot csm that just underwent transformation.
4) Or failing all these options make them WS5 and up their cost by 2-3 points.

*Chosen *
-1) Should be dedicated CC unit and lose infiltrate.
-2) Need to be WS5, maybe even I5. 
-3) Make some new unit to replace Chosen as infiltrators, Call them operatives or something and make them dedicated mid range infiltrating shooty marines.

*Dreadnought.*
-1) Either change the Crazed rules table to provide a potential for some actual benefit to counter act the retarded chances of the unit killing it self or other friendly troops.
-2) Or make the crazed result only trigger on a D6 roll of one the have the table split into two results that are then rolled for in the standard D2 method.
-3) need more options 
-4) If none of these options occur it would be a modest recompence for CSM marines if the dreadnought was dropped to 80pts to counter act their suicidal tendencies.

More to come later.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

I agree with you on all accounts especially the Dreadnought, this might sound far fetched but what about 2 entry's for Chaos Dreadnoughts, the regular Dreadnought and a Great Crusade Veteran Dreadnought, sort like Venerable Dreadnought, but unlike a normal Chaos Dreadnought it wouldnt suffer the crazed rule.

Silly idea really but i like the sound of it

Also Possessed, I think going back to buying their abilities would make them far more viable, there fun now but can be useless if the roll isnt rolled for Rending or Power Weapons.

Daemon Princes need more options mainly Daemon Weapons.


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> However this thread is were I will point out minor fixes that would go a long way to making the CSM codex more balanced and allow for more flexibility and diversity in army builds.


So a wish list?

Use the codex as it is and stop moaning about what could be better.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I cant belive you never mention the Icons and how crappy they are for any Non Cult Troop. Make the Icons into Marks for the whole squad. How is it my squad loses T5 because Nurgles Icon fell to the ground? Stupid. Aslo You never even touched up on 2 of the most wasted units.

Raptor?
Possessed?
Bikers?

All suck as they stand. Also I totaly disagree with NMs being the worst. For 250 pts I get 8 NMs with 5 sonic Blasters and a Siren/PW champ that kills MEQs and whole suads of Zerkers. It crushes SMs to little bits better than Zerkers simply cause I can hide in my Rhino and DS the shit out of squads. Or get out and DS a Sqaud, fire 10 Bolter shots, 2 more Bolt Pistols, then charge with 21 attacks plus 4 PW attacks at int 5!!! Then Im still int 5 rest of combat unlike Zerkers. Zerkers cost 242 for squad of 8 with PF Champ and Rhino. So for 8 more points I get a BETTER Marine Killer unit with a Str5 AP3 Flamer and shit ton of Mid range Bolter Shots before a Assault. Even if Im Assaulted I get to strike MEQs first lessening the damage, unlike Zerks wgo are ONLY good when charging and then being killed. 

So how are NMs bad again? TS, now they suck.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Just pop it in the post to Jim


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Raptor? Was mentioned in the fast attack section
> Possessed? I wanted to avoid them because they need a redesign and in all honesty I don't know what direction they are going with them so I avoided it all together.
> Bikers? Was also mentioned in the Fast attack section
> 
> ...


So that sums up the statistically based reasoning behind why NM need a rethink in the next codex. As always opinion plays little role in my take on the current codex, and most of the suggested changes are based on comparisons to every other MeQ codex, and on cost to effectiveness calculations.

As always there will be disagreements on these matters however the tournament community speaks volumes about what units actually carry their own weight in most situations vs quirky units that have a niche but are over costed. This does not mean I don't respect your opinion on the matter, and appreciate your feed back.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

nightfish said:


> So a wish list?
> 
> Use the codex as it is and stop moaning about what could be better.


So in other words your a none csm gamer that came here to troll, and contribute nothing to this discussion, and even your comment to this thread shows your complete waste of everyone time by having no content, and no support for your opinion? No offense, but why did you even bother entering this thread if you A) didn't care about the content and B) and couldn't be bothered to actual make a meaningful evaluation of the post or its content to support your idiotic and dismissive attitude.

Note: I actually enjoy the current codex, and if you actually have been on the forum for more then say a couple of months your would see I am actually fairly conservative, if you had taken the time to read this thread you would see that it exists because the codex will be reworked in the next 1.5-2 years, and there are some minor fixes that should be addressed. (See how I would prefer minor fixes, and not a rework or return to 3edd as that would be stupid).


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

l agree with all of these,

with the Raptors l find it very odd that blood angles get a better jet troop's all round who also cost less .

l would like to see something that blood angles ones don't have, and around the same cost.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

Much as i agree with you, this is turning into another moaning thread, if you dont like the dex, dont play the race, thems the rules, deal with it.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Dakingofchaos said:


> Much as i agree with you, this is turning into another moaning thread, if you dont like the dex, dont play the race, thems the rules, deal with it.


I agree that this thread is taking a negative turn back to moaning, but the original premise stands. That premise is that the current codex is fine, but a rewrite is coming and some changes would be nice in the next edition, and would help to make all CSM armies less mono build. Some of us would like to take raptors, bikes, ect, however their is never a good reason to do so. As it stands the book is perfectly serviceable, but the balance across units should be addressed in the next book so that people can take certain units without hurting their chances of winning.

In a effort to re-rail the thread I will point out some units that should be rained in because they are too good and ruin the balance of the codex. The first thing that comes to mind is berzerkers. at 21 points each they are one of the most powerful MeQ troop. Seriously for 21 points they get +1A,WS,fearless and furious charge? Where is the motivation to take any other troop beyond these and plague marines when for 6 points they almost double the CC prowess of regular CSMs?

DP's also speaks volumes about a poor design strategy, when a flying MC with a 3+ armor, and WS 7 is only 130pts. Seriously their is rarely a good reason to even entertain the thought of taking any other HQ, and this should not be the case where a single choice dominates a entire section to the extent that only a fool would take anything else (With the exception of kharn, but even he is under costed by 15 or so points.)


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I have to disagree with you on the greater demon. The way of chaos is that they will happily forsake a champion for advantage. In that way I like the way the GD arrives. If you are using one then you have to plan for the behavior of chaos. Look at it this way, why would a greater demom be interested in posessing a random normal chump? He/she/it wants a powerful vessel to contain its essence. And to me the fluff is important.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> DP's also speaks volumes about a poor design strategy, when a flying MC with a 3+ armor, and WS 7 is only 130pts. Seriously their is rarely a good reason to even entertain the thought of taking any other HQ, and this should not be the case where a single choice dominates a entire section to the extent that only a fool would take anything else (With the exception of kharn, but even he is under costed by 15 or so points.)


DPs are poorly designed, but not because they're too cheap. For what you get 130 points for wings & 3+/5++ isn't a bad deal, especially since that extra weapon skill doesn't give much of an advantage. DPs however need to be completely redesigned. For around 200 points starting cost, they should have at least straight 8s across the stat board, 2+/3++ saves and around 5-6 wounds. These guys should be the hardest things in the whole game, requiring immense (really immense to the point where an entire army shooting at/assaulting them is needed to bring them down) effort to destroy. Instead they're often outclassed by Hive Tyrants, Assault Terminators, Archons and the like. Given that they're ten thousand plus years old, nothing should outclass them.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Huh, Somehow I keep overlooking the FA. I went from Troops to Non FOC..... I guess its too painful to look at. 
As for the NMs its true the Doom Siren Champ is what hold the unit or makes it passable as useful. 



The Sullen One said:


> DPs are poorly designed, but not because they're too cheap. For what you get 130 points for wings & 3+/5++ isn't a bad deal, especially since that extra weapon skill doesn't give much of an advantage. DPs however need to be completely redesigned. For around 200 points starting cost, they should have at least straight 8s across the stat board, 2+/3++ saves and around 5-6 wounds. These guys should be the hardest things in the whole game, requiring immense (really immense to the point where an entire army shooting at/assaulting them is needed to bring them down) effort to destroy. Instead they're often outclassed by Hive Tyrants, Assault Terminators, Archons and the like. Given that they're ten thousand plus years old, nothing should outclass them.


Totally agree. A Blood Thirster and Keeper of Secrets has Stats that would be keeping with a GD. But DPs who are right behind them in power are severly lacking. Mephiston is more of a DP than ours :hang1:


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> For around 200 points starting cost, they should have at least straight 8s across the stat board, 2+/3++ saves and around 5-6 wounds.


 WS/BS8, S8 l can agree with but with I8 or T8 might be pushing it. As for the saves for 200 points 2+/4++ with 4 to 5 wounds if he was 250 to 260. l can see 2+/3++ saves and around 5-6 wounds
at 200 points he be way to good. ofcause he is still a MC with wings and add some skills like FC ect.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Because I value any attempt at some sort of forward progress, I will attempt to provide your quality post with some measure of respect, that being said:


LukeValantine said:


> Note that some of the points costs I suggest are not in line with most loyalist codexes. The reason for this should be obvious, and that is to encourage CSM player to design different forces from their loyalist counter parts. I really believe this is the design scheme that should be utilized to further separate loyalist from CSM.


I like this. Being bad space marines is stupid.


LukeValantine said:


> *General*
> 1) Laz cannons are almost prohibitively expensive, as such they should be dropped to 20-30 points for infantry. Seriously their is a reason they are such a rare sight in CSM armies.


Try more like 20-25 points max. Nobody takes them because you have to take marines to hold them. By the time I buy five havocs and three lascannons I could have gotten a predator with two LCs and a TL one on top.


LukeValantine said:


> Troops
> *CSM's*
> -1) As rhino's can only hold 10 troops it would be logical to allow the selection of a heavy or second special weapons for 9 marine units, after all I don't think gamers should have to choice between attaching a character to these squads over attaching said weapons. (This fault is only magnified by how plague marines do not have this restriction and are generally better in most ways).
> -2) (Aspiring champion) Drop the cost of plasma pistols to 10 or even five points, I mean seriously back when they gave +1A to PFs the heightened points cost made sense, but really 30 points for the ability to take one str7 ap2 shot come on. (Not to mention the whole PF champ killing himself problem with over heats really makes the 15pt plasma pistol look stupid beyond reason)
> -3) (Aspiring champ) Drop the cost of a power weapon to 5-10. After all on average a PW equipped champ will only net one extra meq kill a turn, and provides no additional defense against swarm, MC, or vehicles yet is only 10 points less then a PF. (Just ask your self how many times have you seen a serious CSM player put a PW on a champ?).


Make us capable of having two special weapons at five guys for nillas. As it stands, vanilla chaos marines are the worst marines in the game. Icons only exacerbate the problem by making us cost more.
Point one should have been turn icons into marks. Mark of khorne should be 3 points per guy, not 30 for a squad. Turn the icon into either fearless, or a ld reroll, or stubborn, something that helps that pitiful lack of "ATSKNF"
Giving the option for powertoys instead of special weapons shouldn't be ignored either. They are bloodthirsty maniacs and I can't imagine a chaos marine enjoying sniping over visceral combat.

On point 3, you need to drop the cost of fists as well. Nobody in this edition will ever take a powerweapon in a squad. The fist is straight better. I don't care if the powersword is five points, I'd rather shell out for the fist. It's just infinitely better. Now, letting us take powerweapons for nonchamps is a brilliant idea. 5-10 points for a basic marine with 3a on the charge with power for 20-25 points isn't unreasonable, hell grey knights do it with way better stuff.
Aspiring champions need some option of lesser-point costed followers. Wolves were a great edition to a squad and made sense that these blood-thirsty pants-on-head-crazy psychopaths would have some gribbly beasts slobbering after them, feasting on the spoils. Plus they made adequate, low-costed bullet shields that made the squad more durable, without raising the cost of a marine any higher.
Veteran skills like furious charge, counter attack, move-through-cover, and infiltrate made the chaos marines seem like veterans of a thousand years of war, and truly made a strong foil to loyalists who had better gear, but less skills.
Point being, nobody takes nillas unless they need 75 points to cry on an objective. Take them in line between a space marine and grey knight, or give them something worthwhile that separates the playstyle from ultramarines.

Point 2 is nonexistent, nobody takes plasma pistols unless they enjoy having their rectums widened by bad luck. The damn things a death trap. I wouldn't take it if it was free.


LukeValantine said:


> *Noise marines *(there is a reason they are almost none existent in tournaments)
> -1) Drop them to 22pts a model and include the sonic weapon, I mean for the love of Slaanesh as it stands they are the single most expensive troop in the codex and also the weakest of the cult troops (weakness and high cost should never go together unless the unit generates some none direct bonus that counteracts these failings)
> -2) Failing the above statement they could just chose to buff the gun itself to bring it into lines with the other dedicated mid range shooting units like purifiers/stern guard. (I always thought it was odd that sonic weapons are assault bolters that can fire as heavies at 24", after all nothing in the fluff supports this stat bar so why is it their?)


Slaanesh troops suck because you're paying a premium of points to do two jobs poorly. First you pay the points for I5. This is worthless. Take the I5 away. Then you pay for things like a pistol/CC weapon. This is worthless, take them away. We have toolbox marines already called vanillas. Why the fuck would we want more expensive toolmarines, when we don't take the cheap ones.
And nothing in the fluff supports anything about sonic blasters because it's rarely, if ever mentioned. Seriously the new codex briefly mentions you send concentrated waves of rocknroll at the enemy and somebody shit out a random statline for you. Be glad you have that.
Take my advice and you could be dropped to 18-19 points a guy and be able to be taken in a list.


LukeValantine said:


> *Berzerkers*
> 1) ....Drop Plasma pistols to 10pts at the most.


I'll agree. It'd be nice to have the option for powerweapons instead for the same price.


LukeValantine said:


> *Thousand sons*
> - Make sorcs not retardedly over costed. I mean what the hell a sorc counts for 40% of the cost of modest sized units, and will often kill himself with the 6 psychic tests he will take over the course of a game. (Base lever sorc is 70pts...am I the only one that thinks paying 20pts less then a lord for a asp champ with force weapon is a bit stupid?)


They're terrible even without the sorcerer. Nobody would take them even if the damn sorcerer was free because they excel at sucking dicks.
They get a 4++ save that was entirely unneeded this edition due to cover, and they get ap3 bolters that don't matter, either due to coverhammer40k, or due to the fact that sterngard do it better, for cheaper, since they don't pay for the invul.
The only value for the 4++ than is standing in combat, which, with one attack each, they can't do either.


LukeValantine said:


> Fast attack
> *Bikes.*
> 1) Drop the cost to 28-29 points so there is a reason to take more then 4 of the buggers in competitive lists.
> 2) They need something extra to make them unique as they are out shun in every way by loyalists. Either make them have more possible assault weapons or increase the cost of all ranged weapon upgrades and offer cheap CC enhancement options.


Change icons to marks. Mark of nurgle. This squad is fine once the points are brought in line with other codexes.


LukeValantine said:


> *Raptors*
> 1) Either drop them to 19-18 points each or..
> 2) Add the option to take 3 assault weapons or...
> 3) Give them some veteran skill to differentiate them from jump marines. I would like to see either furious charge/hit and run.


Make them 18pts with 3 meltas. Fuck furious charge. I don't want to pay more points for non-scoring troops that can't win assaults anyway. Hit-and-run would be stellar


LukeValantine said:


> *Spawn*
> -1) Sweet jesus remove these from fast attack and move them to the none FoC slot like GD and Lesser daemons.


Just take them out entirely. Even at 20pts nobody would take them. They'd be better off without the goofy fucked up rules, and be better off moving at normal speed as an add-on to a chaos champion, supplying him with another body to throw in the way. It'd be more feasible than deploying a whackbag and hope it gets somewhere. Nobody likes the game to play itself unless they're non-competitive.


LukeValantine said:


> *Furies*
> -Add them to fast attack as they still fit with the generalized feel of the CSM codex as they are the only undivided daemons. (Not with the CD stats though as that would still result with no one taking them)


Replace furies with cultists and you have yourself a deal. We have too many troops as is, and we need those sneaky fucks to go somewhere in this codex.


LukeValantine said:


> None FoC
> -Lesser daemons
> 1) Assuming they remain in the Codex they should be dropped to 12-11pts as they are not worth 13pts despite marine stats (FWI GW 50%+ of a marines cost is for the bolter and the 3+ armor save)
> 2) should be able to take marks like every other squad.


Your pricing is actually spot-on. A warrior acolyte with power armor and a bolter is around 15 points.
Hell drop them to ten points with a minimum squad size of five and we might have a unit that would appear in lists.


LukeValantine said:


> *GD*
> - 1) Get rid of the need for a champion to have to be sacrificed, either make it able to come out of any marine or get rid of the need to sacrifice a model period ( I know people love these idiotic counter productive rules, as they believe they capture the chaotic nature of chaos, but really fluff or not I don't like the idea of a warlord or asp champion willingly sacrificing himself for some vanilla greater daemon that will vanish after a short period of time).
> - 2) Two words eternal warrior! (it is still a daemon damn it!)


It's a shitmon. It's not a daemon. A daemon comes out of the warp and doesn't stumble drunkenly around with shitty stats and no movement. A shitmon is pooped out by an aspiring champion.
Also declaring a single model to be the target of possession at the beginning of the game is infinitely more fluffy than EVERY CHAMPION IN THE CHAOS CODEX HOPING THEY SELF DESTRUCT. It says nothing about chaos champions wanting to get assploded for the "Greater chaos". It's bizarre and makes very little sense that every SELF-SERVING, EGOTISTICAL, champion would want to kill himself in hopes he'd be remembered.


LukeValantine said:


> Elites
> *Terminators*
> 1) Actually provide all the combi-weapons you ass hats!
> 2) Drop the cost of a reaper auto cannon to 10-15pts so its actually a appealing option. (Its not a assault cannon, and is in no way equal to one so its price tag should reflect this)
> ...


Reaper autocannon isn't worth 15 points. It's more in line with 5. That way we'd take it over the combi and possibly heavy flamer. The marks are cheaper, but need to be paid per member of the squad. WS5 should be standard, but you're missing the biggest reason nobody takes them.
Lack of Fearless.
And lack of damage circumvention. We don't have feel no pain apothecaries, and we don't have storm shields. We can half ass either job with the IoN and IoT respectively, but we end up losing each fight. We lack specialization to do any one job well aside from carry 3combis and be 30pt terminators. Insofar our job is to be the most DISPOSABLE of all space marine terminators. Derp.


LukeValantine said:


> *Chosen *
> -1) Should be dedicated CC unit and lose infiltrate.
> -2) Need to be WS5, maybe even I5.
> -3) Make some new unit to replace Chosen as infiltrators, Call them operatives or something and make them dedicated mid range infiltrating shooty marines.


They should be retinue for Chaos Lords. They do not need to lose infiltrate, instead make it an option. Some chaos marines become powerful by knowing where to strike and how to get there unnoticed.


LukeValantine said:


> *Dreadnought.*
> -1) Either change the Crazed rules table to provide a potential for some actual benefit to counter act the retarded chances of the unit killing it self or other friendly troops.
> -2) Or make the crazed result only trigger on a D6 roll of one the have the table split into two results that are then rolled for in the standard D2 method.
> -3) need more options
> -4) If none of these options occur it would be a modest recompence for CSM marines if the dreadnought was dropped to 80pts to counter act their suicidal tendencies.


Here's a stellar idea.
Have the option of choosing which rage it can fly into, but still have the rage trigger 1/3 of the time.
Have fire frenzy locate enemy targets first.(Changing this was fucking stupid. I wouldn't take the dreadnought if he was 70 points.)
Change bloodrage to be beneficial. Doubling his attacks was amazing, it reflected the apeshit nature of the dreadnought perfectly as he became better in combat by being consumed by rage. Almost like the benefit of CHARGING FURIOUSLY. Instead the bloodrage, as is, just makes him lop happily out of cover to charge things when he has no frag grenades. Derp.
Frag grenades standard. I don't care how many points they need to be to be fair. This metal monster is supposed to be a psychotic, sacrificial monster. Not a reliable place I put big metal guns on.

Last someone mentioned daemon princes.
Daemon princes are the half-men, half-daemons who lead a legion of psychotic madmen who's only ambition is putting pain into the first thing they see because they get off on it, and than wear the faces of the enemy because it's god-damn hilarious. He leads those assholes.
Every single one of them is after his job. And according to this codex it's not only sane, but recommended that you have two people of equal power leading a group held together only by intimidation, and the idea that the DP is bigger than them and entirely unstoppable. Having two breaks this apart.
That being said, a chaos lord is the same exact dude, only he's not gotten his final badge of daemonhood, either through some machination of douchebaggy gods or because he chose not to ascend for whatever reason(Maybe he likes fitting in rhinos).
This dude drinks human screams while having the choice caviar of shredded children and tears, his chair is made of aborted dreams and stabbed backs. He is bad people. Somehow he manages to avoid assassination without being an MC by all the people under him. ALL of them.
Yet he's a space marine captain with less options and a bitchstick that he trips over.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

With regards to the Thousand Sons, id like them to move a little bit closer to their fluff description.

If I recall the god old days correctly, they were al but immune to small arms fire, but suffers at the larger anti tank weapons as it took the destruction of the armour to stop them.
Currently... they can plough through anti tank weapons with ease, yet drop just as easily to lasgun fire as their squishy brothers with bodies.

Something that irritates me...

keep the ap3 bolters, and sorceror upgrades, but obviously drop the points, far too expensive.
Maybe have 2 wounds and eternal warrior? or make them immune to shots of st 4 or less.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Eetion said:


> With regards to the Thousand Sons, id like them to move a little bit closer to their fluff description.
> 
> If I recall the god old days correctly, they were al but immune to small arms fire, but suffers at the larger anti tank weapons as it took the destruction of the armour to stop them.
> Currently... they can plough through anti tank weapons with ease, yet drop just as easily to lasgun fire as their squishy brothers with bodies.
> ...


Personally I feel noise marines should have got the ap3 weapons, and thousand sons should have been two wounds with eternal warrior, with no other benefit but the sorc. That would have bee more fluffy.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Personally I feel noise marines should have got the ap3 weapons, and thousand sons should have been two wounds with eternal warrior, with no other benefit but the sorc. That would have bee more fluffy.


Then why not keep the Noise Marine costs the same, drop the Sonic Blaster's Ap to 3, change the Thousand Sons to S5 Heavy 3 weapons and give them 2 wounds each?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I think this dex is trully showing its age now with the BA, SW, and the GK and DE dexes out now... It really has come time for at least an FAQ or somthing to bring some competitiveness back into it. Luke makes a valid point on this thread and I mostly agree with all he has thought would make a good change.

I agree with the Icon thing though its kinda silly that once the icon goes the whole unit seems to forget what they were fightin for, at the same time most of us don't use any icon on a nilla troop except the glory just because of the re-roll morale tests.

Warlock and I were disscussing this last weekend when we were throwin down (by the way screw your damn gaurd Warlock when I come back they shall die mean evil deaths) and one thing we thought was either reg. CSM should be able to re-roll morale as a standard spec. rule for them or they should get a higher Ld. stat. To justify this we were discussing how these guys aren't loyalists and they have been living in some of the most dangerous and terrafying environments for thousands of years, for hell's sake they worship daemons and damonic gods why in hell would they even be afraid of a group UM smurfs with bolt guns, where is the logic in that.

I personally feel that the defiler could use some tweaking, its a shame the in order for such a unique and interesting looking model to survive or do any good you have either A run the bastard or B take more than one to make them useful, and why is it a Soul Grinder has a higher armour than a defiler when they are essentially the same damn critter just one is slightly more mutated than the other. 

Posessed is another thing as well they need a few more options as well or they need that lil chart that made them awesome again. They are some the coolest models in the army and its a shame that they never get used or they just supply us chaos players with random bitz to kit bash with.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I belive obliterators should have an auto cannon equivalent. I get that they fire energy based weapons but they need a long range weapon with more shots. It's one of the reasons DE are near impossible to beat with CSM. We dont have enough long range firepower. 

Also. I would like to see more daemonic engines. There's so much that could be done with that idea and it would only help further the difference between CSM and the loyalists.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

yeah I agree they need more differences because right now they are like a watered down UM army with cooler armour


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

I would like to see more variety, less standardization.
the basic marines and terminators should have more options, more configurations. They're not following some codex, and each one is an ambitious and canny warrior, and each one has their own gear and talents. 
I would like to see a return the the old ways, where every unit is basically a retinue for a powerful Champion, basically allowing every unit the options to be constructed like Inquisitorial Warbands or SM Command Squads with a variety of weapons and specialties and warrior types, depending on what that Champion has recruited. Make the unit champions more powerful, but don't have any IC's. 
Each FOC entry would be a character and their retinue, with options being different depending on which FOC slot they fill. A Fast Attack Champion and his retinue would be able to take a wider variety or greater number of pistols, special CCW's, CC- or movement-related skills and jump packs. A Heavy Support Champion and his retinue would be able to take more, or a wider variety, of heavy weapons and defensive or shooting special rules. A 0-1 Chaos Lord would also have a retinue, maybe with some powerful skills and wargear only available in his unit. Same with Sorcerers, they also have to have a retinue, and they have wargear, abilities and powers only available to that retinue. Cult units would be the same, buy a Noise Marine Champion, and his retinue can take noise weapons, or better, come with them.
Daemon Princes, Dreadnoughts, Defilers and the like wouldn't have retinues but wouldn't be able to join units either, and characters that lost their units couldn't join others, and couldn't leave their retinues.

It would be a total revamp of the codex, and would probably make Chaos play more like Grey Knights, in the sense of having smaller numbers of more elite models, but it would provide for very characterful and wildly varying lists to still be competitive.

This is what I would like to see anyway.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> I would like to see more variety, less standardization.
> the basic marines and terminators should have more options, more configurations. They're not following some codex, and each one is an ambitious and canny warrior, and each one has their own gear and talents.
> I would like to see a return the the old ways, where every unit is basically a retinue for a powerful Champion, basically allowing every unit the options to be constructed like Inquisitorial Warbands or SM Command Squads with a variety of weapons and specialties and warrior types, depending on what that Champion has recruited. Make the unit champions more powerful, but don't have any IC's.
> Each FOC entry would be a character and their retinue, with options being different depending on which FOC slot they fill. A Fast Attack Champion and his retinue would be able to take a wider variety or greater number of pistols, special CCW's, CC- or movement-related skills and jump packs. A Heavy Support Champion and his retinue would be able to take more, or a wider variety, of heavy weapons and defensive or shooting special rules. A 0-1 Chaos Lord would also have a retinue, maybe with some powerful skills and wargear only available in his unit. Same with Sorcerers, they also have to have a retinue, and they have wargear, abilities and powers only available to that retinue. Cult units would be the same, buy a Noise Marine Champion, and his retinue can take noise weapons, or better, come with them.
> ...


You forgot more daemonic engines


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> So in other words your a none csm gamer that came here to troll,


I play Word Bearers. Pictures if you want them.

Heres discussion - codex is fine, all what it needs is a few clarifications.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

yanlou said:


> Daemon Princes need more options mainly Daemon Weapons.


 More guns. As in the ability to give them something!


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Anarkitty said:


> I would like to see more variety, less standardization.
> the basic marines and terminators should have more options, more configurations. They're not following some codex, and each one is an ambitious and canny warrior, and each one has their own gear and talents.
> I would like to see a return the the old ways, where every unit is basically a retinue for a powerful Champion, basically allowing every unit the options to be constructed like Inquisitorial Warbands or SM Command Squads with a variety of weapons and specialties and warrior types, depending on what that Champion has recruited. Make the unit champions more powerful, but don't have any IC's.
> Each FOC entry would be a character and their retinue, with options being different depending on which FOC slot they fill. A Fast Attack Champion and his retinue would be able to take a wider variety or greater number of pistols, special CCW's, CC- or movement-related skills and jump packs. A Heavy Support Champion and his retinue would be able to take more, or a wider variety, of heavy weapons and defensive or shooting special rules. A 0-1 Chaos Lord would also have a retinue, maybe with some powerful skills and wargear only available in his unit. Same with Sorcerers, they also have to have a retinue, and they have wargear, abilities and powers only available to that retinue. Cult units would be the same, buy a Noise Marine Champion, and his retinue can take noise weapons, or better, come with them.
> ...


 Secondified


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

I agree the chaos codex needs to be changed firstly with Khorne Bezerkers getting chainaxes back and sorcerers of Tzeentch need to automatically pass psychic tests again be immune to perils of the warp and the chaos marines getting a rule similar to and they shall know no fear and stubborn and some form of artilliry


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

What are all of your opinions on how Daemons should be treated now that they have been granted a seperate codex?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> What are all of your opinions on how Daemons should be treated now that they have been granted a seperate codex?


They should either be made to not suck or go back into the CSM Codex. I don't care which one.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe Daemons in the next csm codex could be back to actual power specific Daemons, but without the extensive upgrades in the Daemon codex, so i suppose what im saying is base line stats and wargear options, so with that youd still get the flavour of real Daemons in the CSM codex without making the Daemon codex redundant. and again they wouldnt count towards the force organization slots.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I'd be cool with making CSM almost just like standard space marines with some expensive upgrade options. Make upgrades like the marks, daemonic or heretic weapons, mutations like wings, etc...

However, DO NOT go back to the uber cheesy codex it was before the current one, which makes every newb player buy a berzerker army.

If they are going to be elite, allow them, but charge the hell out of them on points. I like noise marines just the way they are. A moving / shooting army with 24-36" range = awesomeness. Noise marines are probably my favourite troops choice for a moving / shooting army.

Legion specific codex would also be not out of the question. That would put chaos armies on a par with space marines. Have a vanilla CSM codex similar to the current one, then a specific codex for each of the non-vanilla legions - death guard, emperor's children, world eaters, thousand sons.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

jaysen said:


> Legion specific codex would also be not out of the question. That would put chaos armies on a par with space marines. Have a vanilla CSM codex similar to the current one, then a specific codex for each of the non-vanilla legions - death guard, emperor's children, world eaters, thousand sons.


That would be nice, but GW has for the last 3-4 years rejected the idea that legions will ever be made, hence why seasoned vets want a codex that would allow them to build specific CSM legions.

In other words we will most likely never get legion codexes, so CSM's should never have a codex that is just spikey marines, because where space marines can deal with that shit do to having 5 separate space marine codexes CSM's only have one codex to represent 5+ legions (warbands).

Also wanted to point out the fact that your experience with 3rd is questionable as you said "However, DO NOT go back to the uber cheesy codex it was before the current one, which makes every newb player buy a berzerker army". Because for about 20+ points you got a marine with a extra attack, and a weapon that was only useful against 2-3+ armor, not to mention all the insane limitations on heavy support if you took the mark of khorn on everything. Hell even worse your berzerkers had a random chance of jumping out of their 50 point rhino's in favor of running at the enemy like a idiot. Hell point for point modern berzerkers out kill old school ones against almost every target but those with 2+ armor.

Anyone who actually played in 3rd knows it was the IW, and word bearers daemon bomb that caused all the bitching and moaning about the CSM codex that caused CSM to end up on jervise's chopping block (Well that and the intended codex separation in 2-3 years after the codex was released). 

Hell there should be a general role of thumb for this thread. If you a) just started playing CSM this edition don't bother posting (You don't have enough experience to know what CSM really are. Or b) only play for fun then don't post (because really if your just playing for the sake of playing then you could probably see the bright side of being forced to play with a all grot army, so once again your opinion is not useful to codex design).

On a personal note almost nothing changed for me when the change occurred from 3-4th edd as I always played a vanilla CSM list. In fact unlike my fellow CSM players the choices I was taking actually became stronger (Rhino's, CMS squads ect, although I miss tank hunting havocs). However even I was shocked by the design changes. For one bezerkers became a hell lot more effective, as did plague marines, while other choices like dreadnoughts, and raptors became the short bus choices of the codex (not that I ever took them, but still no one bitched about them so why did they get nerfed?)

Also why the hell do people keep thinking noise marines are awesome? They have range 24" bolters that can potentially crank out 3 shots for almost twice the price of a regular marine! That means I can literally have 17+ marines for every ten noise marines you have. Do you know how many marines those extra bolter rounds will kill?...1 on average and 2 if your damn lucky. The only thing that makes the unit useful is the doom siren. 

I get why dedicated EC players would advocate for NM's, but really 25+ points a head for a extra 12 inches, and a extra bolter shot? Are people that mathematically challenged that they can't see how much of a rip off that is even by 4th edition standards? Hell run noise marines against any other cult troop or even regular CSM's in the same cost bracket with out a doom siren, and you will see NM's lose 75% of the time!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> What are all of your opinions on how Daemons should be treated now that they have been granted a seperate codex?


I hate to say it, but with daemons a separate codex they by design have to be serverly limited in the CSM codex. In all honesty I don't think they should be re-integrated into the CSM codex either, as that would require a complete redesign of both forces as daemon in their current form are in no way balanced for the CSM codex.

What they should do is keep the current Lesser daemons and greater daemon, and simple allow them to take marks that grant them a minor stat boasts, and give them a special rule. For instance a Greater daemon with mark of Nurgle would be T7 with feel no pain, but would be around 150-160pts compared to 100-110 for the venilla one. I think this would be the best way to revitalize daemons in the CSM codex without compromising the current design scheme.

....that and they should also drop lesser daemons to 12pts each without marks as they currently will lose to guardsmen on the charge if their target is in cover (units of equal points values of course).


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I think they should re-intergrate the lesser daemons and the GD as well but they should still have there own traits that sets them apart from genaric daemon.

The daemons dex though is beginning the rear its age a lil is still a solid dex and many of the daemon player that complaign about are those that just don't understand how to use the army. For those who are new to the game and wanna play daemons learn the game a lil more then make that move... I had to use a lot of trial and error with them until and I have been playin for over 10 years.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Also wanted to point out the fact that your experience with 3rd is questionable as you said "However, DO NOT go back to the uber cheesy codex it was before the current one, which makes every newb player buy a berzerker army"
> 
> Anyone who actually played in 3rd knows it was the IW, and word bearers daemon bomb that caused all the bitching and moaning about the CSM codex that caused CSM to end up on jervise's chopping block (Well that and the intended codex separation in 2-3 years after the codex was released).


Also the Alpha Legion infiltrating DP with Chosen, all the vet chaos marines also infiltrating, cultists to pick up the AV slack(Bet you it's infiltrating).
Games turned into exactly two turns, you either shoot everything I have to death in one fantastic round of shooting, or next turn I assault you and win(Because nothing in that edition ever beat Chosen+DP).
But I totally agree with the message.

Lesser daemons would need to be substantially cheaper or have powertoys or rending to even be viable. Right now they're just half cost possessed without a Daemonkin roll(Lesser daemons are less daemonic than possessed. Sheer brilliance.) As is, they're more in line with being 8 points(2 less than a scout for the loss of a bolt pistol, and the 4+ armor turns into a 5+ invul, also losing frag/krak, all wargear options, etc). I mean they're essentially useless besides putting the cheapest minimum unit you can on the home objective.
We should really compile a mathematically-deduced list of rational changes that aren't wishlisting, such as possessed costing __% less, or ___ points for special rule ____ decided before deployment. Things like that.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I think that these Chaos Codex suggestions are as problematic as getting Chaos Astartes to work together in 40K.

Everyone wants something different.

'I want my Alpha Legion to have infiltrate and be sneaky''

'I want my Iron Warriors to have 3 Baslisks and extra Heavy Support'

'I want my Night Lords to be so scary and fear inducing that looking at them makes everyone run away'

'I want my Death Guard to be tough as nails, so hard in fact that they can walk across the board and laugh at opponents gunfire'


The fact is, the Chaos Legions are dead and buried and their Primarch's have abandoned them and the desire to see the end of the Imperium. They don't care anymore, and neither do I.

With Abaddon and _his_ Black Legion is where Chaos followers should be at this point in time. Kneeling before their rightful Warmaster, the B*stard Clone Son of Horus, Abaddon the Despoiler.

I think half the problem with developing a good Chaos Codex is that people want _their _favourite legion represented with loads of spiffy rules and unique characters and models.

Its just not realistic.

The fact is, that any Traitor Astartes worth their salt know that if they want to bring down the Imperium that they have to cast off their old Legion, like washing off the stench of failure, and join the Warmaster on his Great Black Crusade!!!!

The new codex in my opinion should be *Codex Black Legion*. That is the only proper representation of powerful Traitor Astartes available.

The 'old' Legions should be, at best, a seperate codex, but what's the point?

Most Chaos players have a 'mono' outlook. I want _pure _Khorne, _pure _Slaanesh, _pure_ Nurgle, _pure_ Tzeentch, _pure _Alpha Legion etc etc.

Heck, even Daemon players are always harping on about mono this and mono that.

Chaos is at its strongest when it is being led by a personality, who, through sheer force of will and guile, can unite all the petty interests that Chaos players actually champion!!!



To hell with the Legions, who needs them and their failures. Just because Chaos failed in the past, doesn't mean it will fail in the future.

Give me a codex that alllows me to swear fealty to the mighty Warmaster and take up arms in one of his Great Black Crusades. 

That's what I, and the true followers of Chaos want!!!!


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

in other words your happy with the current dex JK

Well the thing is if you look at the warbands in paticular they all derive from another source just like the SM chapters and those warband snormally contiue to us the same doctrine as their parent legion and what not.

DAC I agree daemon player need to stop the whole i want a mon bla list because that army only really works when you combine them all together its just some people cant think outside the fluff even though the fluff states it can and has been done.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

DAC I disagree.

I think the "black legion, black legion" everywhere dilutes the best part of the army, the character. Chaos has never been intrinsically about being unified. That's anathema. They revoke your union-of-disunion membership for that. The best part about chaos is the amazing variety and diversity of units, factions, and troops available to a chaos player. 

Overview of Chaosy Variety:


Daemon princes
Chaos lords
Sorcerers
[Champions - formerly 3 levels]
Regular chaos renegades
Chosen
Terminators
possessed
Plague marines
Berzerkers
Noise marines
Thousand sons
Havocs
Obliterators
Raptors
Chaos Dreadnoughts
[Space marine tanks + spikes and other trimmings]
Defilers
[Daemon engines]
[Blood slaughterer]
[Cauldron of blood]
[Cannon of Khorne]
Blood Thirsters
Great Unclean Ones
Keepers of Secrets
Lords of Change
Bloodletters
Flesh Hounds
Juggernauts
Plague Bearers
Nurglings
Beasts of Nurgle
Daemonettes
Fiends of Slaanesh
Pink Horrors
Blue horrors
Flamers of Tzeentch

And I'm sure I'm leaving things out.

I've played chaos in 40k and fantasy since the dawn of 2nd edition. That whole time the most compelling and fun lists I've played, were all about mixing troops. I played entirely khorne armies, and while fun it got stagnant really quickly. I've been playing Iron Warriors since Andy chambers painted an army of them for the 2nd ed chaos codex, and I never played using the bonus heavy support list. I liked them because they looked mean and mechanistic. 

I do agree that the Damon dex should probably get subsumed back into Codex Chaos Marines. Especially because what makes the Chaos army unique and exciting (to me) is the wild variety of things that can show up in it.

I particularly enjoyed the daemon engines, and anything strange and baroque.


More at the OP, I think you have a lot of good suggestions going on here, and I think LordWaffles nailed the rest. (Other than needing daemon engines!) 

Keep the variety alive, and recompute the point values so they make sense.

I know GW avoids talking about it, but the fact that a statistical metagame exists suggests that all armies are not created equal or balanced. (And I don't mean Chaos)

There should be a better way to balance out point costs.


Cheers,
Kreuger


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> DAC I disagree.
> 
> I think the "black legion, black legion" everywhere dilutes the best part of the army, the character. Chaos has never been intrinsically about being unified. That's anathema. They revoke your union-of-disunion membership for that. The best part about chaos is the amazing variety and diversity of units, factions, and troops available to a chaos player.


I couldn't agree more. So why are you disagreeing with me and not the people I was having a go at?

The people who say, I want to play, mono-Death Guard, mono-Emperor's Children etc etc.

They are the ones who are ruining diversity by always wanting the best rules and models for *their favoured legion*.

The Black Legion is what offers true variety. They can have any Troops, any Daemons, any Marks, any engines of war and the most interesting and unique special characters will all turn up on the battlefields of the Great Black Crusades.

But, people should be under no illusion. THE LEGIONS ARE NO MORE. The only force that can command powerful fleets and armies *on a consistant basis*, is the Black Legion and Warmaster Abaddon.

You can paint your Army Night Lords Blue or Iron Warriors Silver, but it is only under the banner of the Warmaster that Chaos is a true army, a true force capable of delivering serious wounds to the decaying Imperium.

AT BEST, the others are capable of assaulted a handful of worlds after bypassing Imperial defences at Cadia.

Only Abaddon and his Legion are capable of assaulting the most heavily defended planet after Terra itself.

Supporting a Black Legion orientated dex is about supporting diversity. 

Supporting one legion in particular stifles diversity, as people can't think for themselves and imagine a simple scenario of how an Emperor's Children Astartes and World Eater's Astarte could set aside their conflicting natures and attack the Imperium together. 

They need mono-Legion Armies. Armies led by _their_ Legion, containing only _their_ Legion and only for _their_ Legion.

To you, the Black Legion must be another example of conformity, to me the Black Legion is the most powerful force Chaos Astartes possess, filled with every single type of unit Chaos Astartes possess.

Paint your Chaos figures any colour you want, but make no mistake, it is only under the banner of Abaddon that they can harm the Imperium.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I believe legions should be possible, but not have enshrined rules. For instance it is still possible to make a world eaters, death guard, ect through spamming certain types of units, but some factions are just not possible or advisable do to the intrinsic matter of none representative points cost. I firmly believe that if the codex was balanced better everyone would still be able to represent their favorite legion, while at the same time keeping the internal balance of the codex. 

I also feel that reabsorbing all elements into the black legion is a poor idea, not everyone likes the black legion, or cares about their crusades. After all how many strong are the UM or the other major loyalist factions, 1000 or so. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't their that many berzerkers, iron warriors ect floating around the warp in varying sizes of warbands? By dac's logic all marine chapters should be reabsorbed into the space wolfs, UM, and black templar, because really what are 100 or so marines going to accomplish in the grand scheme of protecting the imperium?


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i dont understand why you cant just purchase an upgrade on your HQs that are "legion tactics" thats the quick and easy fix to the lack of flavor for the old legions/powerful renegades

just a few i thought of

Alpha Legion - Allows Undivided units to infiltrate
Black Legion - 
Death Guard - Allow MoN units to be troops
World Eaters - Allow MoK units to be troops
Iron Warriors - Allow obilits to be taken as Elites (like MotF with dreads)
Night Lords - All undivided units cause Terror (Ld check if within 6"?)
Emperor's Children - Allow MoS units to be troops
Thousand Sons - Allow MoT units to be troops
Word Bearers - each unit consisting of 10(or more) undivided, and has an icon/mark get a free 5 man unit of lesser demons...
Red Corsairs - Huron allows Bikes and Raptors to become troops

these ideas were just made up on the spot so not much thought has been put into them but something like this can easily fix the lack of flavor for CSMs.

a few things i would like to see changed is that if we will still have to buy our champions in the next codex then the other upgrades we can give the champions should have a reduction to their wargear.

i wish that NMs were 20 points and came stock with sonic blasters, and could take special weapons, like melta.

Reduce the starting points of the aspiring sorcerer for the Tsons.

allow demonic possession to have "marks" as well


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Fallen, I agree. Something like Chapter tactics that SM get would be a great place to start

I'd like to see Noise Marine's even just have a Sonic Blaster as standard. Berzerkers should have some form of rending option as well I think


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Also wanted to point out the fact that your experience with 3rd is questionable as you said "
> 
> Hell there should be a general role of thumb for this thread. If you a) just started playing CSM this edition don't bother posting (You don't have enough experience to know what CSM really are. Or b) only play for fun then don't post (because really if your just playing for the sake of playing then you could probably see the bright side of being forced to play with a all grot army, so once again your opinion is not useful to codex design).
> 
> Also why the hell do people keep thinking noise marines are awesome? They have range 24" bolters that can potentially crank out 3 shots for almost twice the price of a regular marine! That means I can literally have 17+ marines for every ten noise marines you have.


1. I must've hit close to the mark, eh? Calm down and think twice before you post a flame.

Edited in order to take my own advice.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

jaysen said:


> 1. I must've hit close to the mark, eh? Calm down and think twice before you post a flame.


I do a apologies if you interpreted the second section of that post as being directed at you as only the first section was meant as a critic of your pst. The second element was in response to other posters that have questionable stakes in the matter. For instance "A word bearers player that does not have a problem with the current edition?" highly dubious if you ask me.

I will now respond to your other concerns in a orderly manner.

2: As only the first element of my post was aimed at you I can understand why you may have taken offense, but honestly no one I have ever talked to thought the old world eaters list was broken, so I thought I would draw attention to this fact.

3: I started in 1996 so we are in a relatively similar boat, although I have to admit my interactions with 3rd where limited do to sever limitations in time and founding. Yet me and my opponents never had a hard time against anything, but the infamous alpha legion, IW, Word bearers armies.

4: Once again I don't mean to come of as attacking you, but you do realize said terminators would have been 60+ points each and would still get curve stomped by modern TH/SH terminators. This brings up another good point the perception of cheese vs what actually gives a unfair advantage. Daemonic gifts and the like rarely gave a unfair advantage in 3rd against a competent opponent. I know most people have no ability for meta gaming, and advanced probability calculations, but 60+pt terminators no matter how awesome are never a sound investment nor where other point pit falls like asp champs with Dst, and Dattck. As these kinds op options load outs rarly paid off.

Case in point only idiots take paladins in the new GK book, since for all their awesomeness they rarely if ever make themselves useful vs a competent opponent. It was these lacks in understanding that caused the call for a overly aggressive redesign that ignored some core balancing issues.

5: Once again I have to criticis your interaction with competent and veteran meta gamers that played CSM, For no one is calling for a broken codex, but one that has justifiable points costs, I mean 13 points for lesser daemons, 25 for noise marines? While crap like berzerkers and plague marines had a unjustified boast in effectiveness for virtually no points increase. If you run the numbers both choice became incredibly more effective while other choices where made almost unusable in a competitive setting (Bikes).

For those that actually followed the history of this codex their are some interesting confessions by designers that have lead to suspicions about this codex. Part of the confessions revealed that major changes where made not in a effort to make a balanced codex, but to address concerns in the gaming community (Like the overly complicated nature of the codex not being friendly for new gamers/sales (Note they did not signify that the codex was unbalanced just unnecessarily complicated), also it has been mentioned that the CSM codex was the testing ground for the simplifying design strategy that was to be implemented across all codexes (only ended up sticking for UM before they started deviating back to adding new units and rules versus removing them).

Interesting side note: If you run any 3rd edition csm faction, but the broken legions against a modern codex or even the modern CSM codex you will soon see some interesting factors. 1) you will be out numbered considerably. 2) You will probably get beaten fairly badly by new units (I can have 2 dp's for your one DP, and your stat bonuses won't help much when I lash you in front of 10 plasma guns).

- If you still feel that my criticism of you post is unfounded then please offer a rational and fact based justification of your view point and I will address your concerns as my critics are rarely based on idiotic emotionality, and simple none fact based opinion.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> I couldn't agree more. So why are you disagreeing with me and not the people I was having a go at?
> 
> To you, the Black Legion must be another example of conformity, to me the Black Legion is the most powerful force Chaos Astartes possess, filled with every single type of unit Chaos Astartes possess.
> 
> Paint your Chaos figures any colour you want, but make no mistake, it is only under the banner of Abaddon that they can harm the Imperium.


D-A-C, you perceive my feelings on the matter perfectly. I find any sort of codex enforced Chaos mono-culture antithetic.

I think its great to allow people to play monotheistic chaos armies if they so desire, but the rules should be reasonable. Those armies should be fun, and competitive, but less flexible than a more heterogeneous army. I miss the days when Khorne armies (or any god army) had a complement of tactical and devastator units.

Chaos Marines to me have always been characterized by their motley nature. Considering the scale 40k is played at, I don't feel any real need to represent the Black Legion. I agree, your argument is logical. The Black Legion is according to the fluff - the largest chaos force making concerted forays out of the Eye of terror, however, I much prefer playing from the perspective of a warband assaulting from an orbiting space hulk or in search of arcana. 

Cheers,
Kreuger

p.s. - Perhaps if I were playing a lot of Apocalypse games it might make sense to play as though the chaos side were Black Legion controlled.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> They are the ones who are ruining diversity by always wanting the best rules and models for *their favoured CHAPTER*.
> 
> The ULTRAMARINES is what offers true variety. They can have any Troops, any Tanks, any Wargear, any engines of war and the most interesting and unique special characters will all turn up on the battlefields of the GENERIC CONFLICT FROM 500 TO 5000pts.
> 
> ...


Just showing this from the other side of the issue. Sure I could use generic rules for my Dark Angels, Black Templar, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights, but why would I? Does somehow the Imperium possess a magical force that makes codexes capable of being written to curtail to a certain force?
Does the Imperium have simply MORE variety than CHAOS ITSELF? Is it totally out of the question to have a mere two codexes to represent legions and traitors(Respectively), one having fought the imperium from the heresy til present, the other fresh turncoats?
Does a Black Templar division have such incredible differences from a Blood Angel? Would a Khorne army have any less disimilarities from a Tzeentch force?
Dark Angels and Space Wolves/Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors? Does somehow the label of "Chaos" make all marines not radically different or unique? Did the legions lose all of their tactical intrigue and variance to the point a single unit of Generic Chaos Space Marines can represent the multitude of Legions, wargear, idealisms, tactics, and special rules sufficiently?
I say no. We are not asking for separate codexes for the FOUNDING legions of chaos, we aren't even asking for a separate codex for the original nine legions to be fully represented. We're asking for nine pages out of a codex to be written, half of the page can be inane fluff, but we're hoping for 4.5 pages of rules to simply represent the immense diversity and doctrines present in the legions of chaos.

You say more special rules means the death of diversity, well let's take a look at the old codex. Three big scary armies with some variance between each of the sublists and multiple ways of tailoring them to prime perfection.

Now let's look at the new codex.

There is exactly one list. Every single time. Without fail.

It is the single most boring army to play in the entire game. Necrons have more unit variety than we do. A book printed since the dawn of time has more options and flavor than the entirety of the Black Legion.

So with all due respect sir, you may take your Black Legion and keep it. In fact if the opinion of the company is only to represent forces directly under Ababblesdabblesdooblesdon(Generic piratical raiders, IE:Current book), and no Legions, you may keep the entire damn army. 
People don't play chaos to have less choices, less fun, and less spikes in the bitzbox.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Good call Waffles.

Next release they may as well lump the Ultramarines and the Black Legion together in one codex.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Kreuger said:


> Good call Waffles.
> 
> Next release they may as well lump the Ultramarines and the Black Legion together in one codex.


Hell let's lump everyone who's majority t3 s3 together as well. We'll call it codex "Not Space Marines".


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Its funny, my rant was against mono-thinkers and yet I seem to have been lumped in with them.

I just don't like people who follow Chaos and are under the illusion that this is still the army of Horus and his great Brothers.

They are gone, and gone for good.

I used to be very pro Horus, especially when the first Horus Heresy novels came out.

Now I say _"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away."

_I'm genuinely sick of hearing about how Abaddon is a failure for not having destroyed the Imperium. Like that's just a simple walk in the park.

I want people to understand just how terrified the Imperium is of each and every Black Crusade.

Your right about one thing though. Just as the SM have their Ultramarines, we have our Black Legion.

You can like an individual Legion, but only the Black Legion is truely powerful when it comes to Chaos Astartes.

All the former Traitor Legions look at Abaddon and what he has created with envy and awe. Unlike Matt Wards weird intention of making all the other Chapters want to be Ultramarines, ALL Chaos Astrates want to be like Abaddon and have the power he has. That is a fact.

They may call him failure behind his back, but no-one would dare walk up to him and say that to him without getting their asses handed to them.

You saw in _Soul Hunter_ how Abaddon dealt with that attitude.

1. He rightly asked whether the person in question 'was privy to his inner-most plans?'.

2. He put a Bolter round in his chest. 

I can't say more without spoiling it for others. But _Soul Hunter _showed in a few paragraphs, just how powerful Abaddon is.

Like I said, have your unique warband and fluff. 

But understand that when your unique commander gets tired of living on scraps like a rat, and wants to strike out at the Imperium properly, he is going to kneel before Abaddon, and swear an oath of fealty to the true Warmaster.


EDIT: Just so everyone is aware, my favourite Legion is the Emperor's Children. But an army with all Noise Marines and Slaanesh Marks would be horribly dull to play IMO. Not to mention leaves no room for really inventive and unique fluff.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Just so everyone is aware, my favourite Legion is the Emperor's Children. But an army with all Noise Marines and Slaanesh Marks would be horribly dull to play IMO. Not to mention leaves no room for really inventive and unique fluff.


but it would be nice if those of us that want to take an all slaaneshi army wouldnt be hamstrung, because of ridiculous over pricing, before to see who goes 1st. im more than ok knowing that id have an uphill battle to win competitively but not just hate playing my army/legion/warband because of the codex.

or in general whatever army that you want to use, people would like to see something thats not the EXACT same, reason why chapter tactics and other codexs make SMs fun...that and matt ward writes their codexs.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Its funny, my rant was against mono-thinkers and yet I seem to have been lumped in with them.
> 
> I just don't like people who follow Chaos and are under the illusion that this is still the army of Horus and his great Brothers.
> 
> I'm genuinely sick of hearing about how Abaddon is a failure for not having destroyed the Imperium. Like that's just a simple walk in the park.


In counter-argument:
Abaddon blows mad meats. He had a SINGLE FUCKING JOB. To take a SINGLE FUCKING PLANET. And he's failed and lost hundreds of thousands of irreplaceble weapons, armor, troops, and titans. His flagship, the Planet Killer, can't even do what's in it's name.


D-A-C said:


> I want people to understand just how terrified the Imperium is of each and every Black Crusade.


"Oh golly gee is that Abaddon's flagship? Whelp. I guess we better send a single planet to defend."
"But sir we have hundreds of planets."
"Nope. Just one will scare'em off after he loses most of his forces, gains no ground, and grinds off the scum of the imperial guard."


D-A-C said:


> Your right about one thing though. Just as the SM have their Ultramarines, we have our Black Legion.
> 
> You can like an individual Legion, but only the Black Legion is truely powerful when it comes to Chaos Astartes.


But they aren't the elite. They're just another legion.
Just because they have swelled due to renegades doesn't make their bolters any stronger, the marines armor harder. In fact, in terms of gameplay, the black legion's soldiers are INFINITELY worse than any of the Legions. It's not so astounding to see why he hasn't conquered cadia.


D-A-C said:


> All the former Traitor Legions look at Abaddon and what he has created with envy and awe. Unlike Matt Wards weird intention of making all the other Chapters want to be Ultramarines, ALL Chaos Astrates want to be like Abaddon and have the power he has. That is a fact.


But. They don't. Or at least I can't think of any reason *why* they'd want to be him, or serve him.
"Hey guys do you want to fail spectacularly 16 times in a row?"
"Uhhh no. I'm cool."


D-A-C said:


> They may call him failure behind his back, but no-one would dare walk up to him and say that to him without getting their asses handed to them.
> 
> You saw in _Soul Hunter_ how Abaddon dealt with that attitude.
> 
> ...


So he behaved like a one-dimensional supervillain that gets easily flipped over and assfucked. Neat.


D-A-C said:


> Like I said, have your unique warband and fluff.
> 
> But understand that when your unique commander gets tired of living on scraps like a rat, and wants to strike out at the Imperium properly, he is going to kneel before Abaddon, and swear an oath of fealty to the true Warmaster.


And like I said. Keep your army. Keep your renegaydes(amirit?), keep your false legionnaires, keep your lazy, incompetent Abaddon with his 17th black failade.
Chaos Lord Malekkor, Champion of the Hundred-Headed Bloodscreaming Hydras, will gladly play the game using grey knight rules. Ones that decently represent his warp-tainted brethren having returned from death itself time and again via the eye of terror. A codex that makes the distinction between a vanilla ultramarine, and a terror-breathing psychotic warp-empowered immortal legionnaire(Purifier).

So, in closing; sir you can keep your black crusades, you can keep your shitfilers, you can keep your oblitafailators, keep your icons of weaksauce, keep your combi-fails, keep your eternally dead hqs, and keep your damn faildex!
Oh and keep your coupon for one free suck of Abaddon's cock to do anything nearing a victory. That's also a poor bargaining chip.



D-A-C said:


> EDIT: Just so everyone is aware, my favourite Legion is the Emperor's Children. But an army with all Noise Marines and Slaanesh Marks would be horribly dull to play IMO. Not to mention leaves no room for really inventive and unique fluff.


You should have played last edition. Terminators and havocs were noise marines. Hell, predators had noise weaponry. With an entire two pages of slaaneshi-themed wargear, and spells. God how boring.
I only get to play the best army ever, and all my stuff is customized to meet my exact specifications. God, I sure hope next edition takes all this shit away. I hate having wildly divergent lists that everyone is satisfied playing with(Not always against, mind you)

And not to mock you but taking a big ol' swig of Abba cock to join in on the 17th failure in a row is like...the worst sales pitch ever.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I feel like you may be missing something here, D-A-C and I think I said it earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again.

Nobody cares if the "fluff facts" state that the Legions are broken up and the Black Legion are the head honchos. We _liked_ unified Legions and nobody gives a fuck if it isn't official anymore. People want what they want and I would be incredibly surprised to find that the next Chaos Marine book doesn't allow people some sort of bonus for taking a mono-themed army.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Or at least makes in more feasible.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

My solution.

Codex Chaos Daemons (They are sooooo different they deserve their own codex)

Codex Black Legion (The Chaos equivilent of Codex Space Marines)

Codex Legions (Containing two pages of alternate rules and models for each Legion)

3 Codices for Chaos.


Imperium should be:

Codex Imperial Guard

Codex Inquisition and Grey Knights

Codex Ultramarines and their equivilents (basically Guillimans book club)

Codex vampires, wolves, crusaders and other non-book club members.

4 For Good guys.



Then you've got:

2 Eldar - Dark / Craft World

Orks

Tau

Necrons

Nids



So 7 human/Astartes and 6 Xeno in total. You could even add a new alien race and get 7 each.

Win + win.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

GW being fair, and progressive? Tell me you jest. Its far more likly that they will dissolve the legions idea all together, and just say any force can be presented with the core codex, chosen become alpha legionnaires, havocs become IW weapon teams, and everything else just get renamed, and rebranded. Then Codex Iron hands gets released, and orks and tyranids get combined into one codex because 6 xeno codex's is just such a complicated number. ...wait were am I what time is it?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I do agree that they need some more diversity in the CSM dex and yeah it would be nice to use a mono legion style army instead of here is your troops and now just give everything else icons oh and if those icons die your squad now for the life of them can't remember what god they worship.

I can see why GW wont make several chaos legion dexs considering how many armies there are now, but I also have felt for quite some time how silly it is that they have so many SM books out there, all chapters with the exception of the GKs(because they really are way too different) should be compiled in one book, but making everyone buy books is how GW markets and makes money off of us. 

I have a feeling that the next CSM book is gonna be much more like the last 3.5 one.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> I have a feeling that the next CSM book is gonna be much more like the last 3.5 one.


I agree with this. GW would have to be stupid not to realize that something like the 3rd Ed. Chaos Codex is what most people want... Oh wait...


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Dawnstar said:


> I agree with this. GW would have to be stupid not to realize that something like the 3rd Ed. Chaos Codex is what most people want... Oh wait...


This is GW we are talkin about!


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Hence the "Oh wait...." at the end


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

With the level of redesign being thrown around these days I honestly have no idea what the new CSM codex will look like, for all we know berzerkzers may get storm bolters for some reason.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Berzerkers w/ rending would be nice though


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> if those icons die your squad now for the life of them can't remember what god they worship.


"Guys, Malgathresh over there dropped the flag and well...I can't remember what I was so angry about. I wanna say....Broccoli? Tomato? What was our god's name? Toyota?"


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Reasonable points cost are needed, as well as the variety and feasablity to run mono/multi armies.

I think that would make everyone happy.

Some custom legion rules would be a bonus.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I think the current trend they went with the cult marines should be expanded on or left at their current points costs depending on the units current build ect.

Berzerkers: Dedicated CC with virtually no ranged ability.
Plague marines: Bullet sponges for anti infantry fire.

Now here are the confused choices.

Noise marines: Dedicated anti light infantry soldiers...with the ability to take a single anti-tankish weapon, and a incredibly potent anti heavy infantry weapon?
Thousand sons: Bullet sponges against meq killing weapons, and oddly anti-MeQ ranged weapons....with a single unit with a force weapon to scare of IC, and weak MC's?

See the odd men out in this equation?
Personaly I think they should better fit units to their inteded role even if it does hurt mono building.

Noise marines: Make them ranged anti light infantry soldeirs without peer, but give them little anti-armor and anti MeQ. Make doom sirens Str6, AP4. And make the blast master a dedicated anti-infantry weapon.

Thousand sons: Not to sure what direction they should take these guys as they have been completely redesigned in each codex so anything is possible with them. However going with the current trend they should be made dedicated anti-MeQ. To do this drop the Inv save to 5+, make the sorc come base with winds of chaos or some other dedicated anti MeQ power. Or if they want to expand their old role as bullet sponges (Make more sense fluff wize, but who cares about fluff these days. To do this they should make them two wounds each with eternal warrior, and remove the inferno bolt rule.

I have no idea what they should point cost these kinds of changes, but they should be kept under a prohibitivly cost to encourage a balanced cult selection in lists. As the current idea behind cult marines favor a edlar like list with specialists that fill a very specific role, and requiring symmetry in a army is what builds truly poweful lists....well with the exemption fo GK, and SW/BA.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i agree with you luke, but i think that the cult troops currently are a pretty good fit where they are rules wise and specialty; its points, stats and war gear (lack of?) that screw them over.

NMs - 20 pts, come with a sonic blaster stock and just a cheaper blastmaster option (thats quite as anti tank but has more shots, like the DE splinter cannon (i think i got the right gun). the Doom siren im not sure about, if you drop it then NMs should be able to take regular assault weapons (melta, flamer, plasma) as well and. The BM should also be either 1 for every 5 or something.

Tsons, make them 22 points and relentless with a sorcerer, and when he dies they become S&P. make the sorcerer 30 points base + cost of power (MoT psychic powers should be cheaper IMO)

Bezerkers i think should be on par with death company(in CC only)

Plague marines i think should be strait T5.
--------

a couple of things mentioned earlier by people...

the return of bonuses if taken in God specific number.

that each unit should be more like a "mini lord" + retinue and the retinue should have options for power weapons (but no PFs) and that lords should be able to take DWs, PFs, or better PWs (dual lightning claws example). 

i think that these things could be a pretty cool example on how to make CSMs more unique than CC spiky marines, spiky marines, dakka spiky marines, and harder to kill spiky marines.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Talking about these possible chnages gets me exited about chaos again, after all I currently have every csm model I would ever want to collect in this dex, and a new dex for better or worse would at least give me a reason to shift my collection again.

Keep in mind Iam under no utopian idea about a futre codex as in any new rule book something will become the short bus of the list or atleast the quircky red headed step child. However any change is good change and having mastered what I can from this codex I am looking forward to a bit of chaos in the cuture.

Dystopian CSM codex future? DP''s become 130pts base and have T,S,WS dropped to five, with the same limited options currectly availible and become a o-1 choice. Berzerkers lose WS5, and become subject to the rage rule. Plague marines lose feel no pain yet retain 23pt cost. ect ect.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Talking about these possible chnages gets me exited about chaos again, after all I currently have every csm model I would ever want to collect in this dex, and a new dex for better or worse would at least give me a reason to shift my collection again.
> 
> Keep in mind Iam under no utopian idea about a futre codex as in any new rule book something will become the short bus of the list or atleast the quircky red headed step child. However any change is good change and having mastered what I can from this codex I am looking forward to a bit of chaos in the cuture.
> 
> Destopian CSM codex future? DP''s become 130pts base and have T,S,WS dropped to five, with the same limited options currectly availible and become a o-1 choice. Berzerkers lose WS5, and become subject to the rage rule. Plague marines lose feel no pain yet retain 23pt cost. ect ect.


Dude that would nerf the DP so badly, I think his standard profile is fine, but I feel he should have a higher toughness and a slightly hirgher strength, We are talking about a hug hulking daemonic creature that can exist in both worlds, not to mention DPs mortal and CSM champions that have been elevated to this level their stats should be much higher than a normal lord, also they should have a better save than 3+/5+. Sure this would make them way more espensive in points, but it would reflect better on waht aDP is. 

Hell read the fluff and the novels, in the novels and fluff DPs are capable of destroying worlds and whole systems on their own, but in game wise these fools can fall to bolter fire.

I feel there stat should read:
WS - 7 BS - 3(maybe 4 but 3 makes sense considering a DP would be more geared towards CC) S - 6 T- 6 W- 4 Ld- 10 Sv- 2+/4+

To me yeah this seems way pver powered, but it doesn't at the same time this would prolly him quite expensive but it would reflect more on what a DP is.

Also zerks losing Furious Charge and PM losing FNP is completely doing away with what makes them good at what they do, why would you want to nerf them like that, thats like saying we should just take rending from the daemonettes which is there only real advantage.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

!Dystopian<--- CSM codex future!


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Also zerks losing Furious Charge and PM losing FNP is completely doing away with what makes them good at what they do, why would you want to nerf them like that, thats like saying we should just take rending from the daemonettes which is there only real advantage.


I think Luke was saying it as a worst case scenario.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

turel2 said:


> I think Luke was saying it as a worst case scenario.


My bad for not paying attention Ill go to the corner now  Sowwy


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