# Angron's Rampages



## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Do you guys think that his all abiding hatred for his father, and by extension his father's empire is why Angron is the only one of the four Daemon Prince Primarchs to return and rampage ?

Fulgrim is no longer Fulgrim, and his legion is in tatters because they preyed on everyone and were smited.

Peturabo also is bitter, but it seems directed more towards his brother Primarchs more than the Imperium itself.

Mortorion seems to be wallowing in self-pity while Thypus actually runs shit.

Magnus, is not really against the Imperium, also wallowing in self pity while his sons wage a war of vengeance against mostly the SW.

Lorgar is meditating and his children are playing games amongst themselves.

How much damage have the rest of them caused since ascention to Daemonhood ?


By damage I mean led, conquests/rampages.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Honestly, other than Angron the rest of them have pretty much done jack shit themselves. They leave the imperium terrorizing to their legions and are probably more focussed on the great game the chaos gods play. The only thing I can think of of the top of my head is Magnus trying to manifest in real space to try and destroy the space wolves but all that got him was a poke in the eye.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Re-reading After Desh'ea, and instead of the usual fanfare and pomp, The corpse god basically dumped a traumatised Angron into the ranks of his Legion with nary a word and left them to themselves.

Saying "they must take this duty upon themselves".


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Nope only angron went on Rampaging. The rest let Abbaddon rule their Legions for them .


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Fluffwise, GW have pumped the primarchs up a bit too much to let them loose like that really. So they just set one on the Imperium, if only to show how kingshit they have become, before citing some crap about how their priorities have changed.

I think it`s pretty weak myself, this whole heresy thing nearly consumed their souls, the souls of their legions and brothers, and now they suddenly don`t care? They`ve (conveniently) just put it all behind them?


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## Clegane (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, Fulgrim mortally wounded Gulliman (sp?) So there must have been some activity after the Heresy.. perhaps during the Scouring? But by and large I think Serpion5 is right there seems to be a lack of interest on the Daemon Primarchs agenda.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Clegane said:


> Well, Fulgrim mortally wounded Gulliman (sp?) So there must have been some activity after the Heresy.. perhaps during the Scouring? But by and large I think Serpion5 is right there seems to be a lack of interest on the Daemon Primarchs agenda.


I think that if there were more of the loyalist primarchs out there to fight, the traitor primarchs might be tempted enough to fight them. I think the example of Fulgrim and Guilliman is pretty good. Perturabo had already proved to himself better than Dorn in the "Iron Cage." Guilliman is down so now Alpharius doesn't have any motive to utterly destroy the Imperium. He simply just screws around with the Imperium. 

In some way I think the loyalist primarchs kind of disapeared on purpose so that the daemon prince primarchs would no longer have the competition and motivation to utterly lead their legions to destroy the Imperium again. This is obviously just my conspiracy but if it really was the case, it has worked. Can you imagine the world of shit the Imperium would be if every chaos primarch and the support of every legion was at the Cadian gates?


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

That is very true...

But I really think now that they have had 10,000 years to think, they realise they were being assholes, even though their father is the asshole king of horrible parenting.

Maybe they just feel sorry for themselves like Magnus does.

Angron didn't like the Emp from day one, so he is still pissy.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think in a way perhaps Magnus, Perturabo, and Mortarion might have some regret over what they did. I don't know much about Mortarion yet, but at least Magnus and Perturabo both payed the ultimate price in trying to be loyal and basically broke themselves. Magnus broke the rules and Perturabo broke himself. But at least in this way they can say they tried everything and nothing worked. So maybe in that sense they don't have regret.

Fulgrim is possessed and lost forever, so it doesn't really matter if his tortured soul has regret or not.

Alpharius is on his own program as I've always said.

Angron was a uncontrollable animal ever since his slave owner put that aggression implant in his brain. I think it was Corax in _Raven's Flight_ who asked why Angron would do such a thing as betray his father and his brothers. The answer was "freedom." Ever since the Emperor found Angron all he felt was shackled by his father and kept at bay by his true potential; his murder frenzy. Ever since his betrayel all he feels is freedom, freedom to slaughter for all eternity. I don't think he'll ever feel regret.

In some cases though I can see some regret, but I think in many ways they remember what it was like to be under the shackles of the Imperium and their father who is now in a golden toilet.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think in a way perhaps Magnus, Perturabo, and Mortarion might have some regret over what they did. I don't know much about Mortarion yet, but at least Magnus and Perturabo both payed the ultimate price in trying to be loyal and basically broke themselves. Magnus broke the rules and Perturabo broke himself. But at least in this way they can say they tried everything and nothing worked. So maybe in that sense they don't have regret.
> 
> Fulgrim is possessed and lost forever, so it doesn't really matter if his tortured soul has regret or not.
> 
> ...


I don't think he was an uncontrollable animal from then, he was created to be that way by the Emp.

In the Tales of Heresy novel, his Legion was censured for decimating thier OWN allies in combat before they had even met him. So the violence was in the gene-seed.

It also showed Angron was into combat for honour (he had his Triumph rope with no losses), and he hated fighting his own honourable brethren just to please the upper class "high-riders." He did however have no issue with total butchery of the enemy, especially when he considered them beneath him.

He actually classes the Emperor as a "high-rider" giving commands from up high while others fought and died for him.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Maybe it's just the fact, that when their Patron God ascends them into Daemonhood, they gain access to a whole daemon-world worth of power...

Being the evil Bastards they are, they could just basically have gone

"F- This, you can do it abaddon, i'm pretty good where i am, maybe in a few thousand years."

Unless your a really angry like Angron, who did go on that rampage.

Do you see what i'm saying? Maybe they just don't need to do anything, they just enjoy watching everything around them die, in unholy fires, from the comfort of their own Realm.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Other Daemon princes are far more active and particpate in destruction and slaughter. The Primarches were gene built to conquer and rule, kinda lazy for them to slack off, when humans/ regular space marines are doing something positive with their Daemonhood.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

ROT said:


> Maybe it's just the fact, that when their Patron God ascends them into Daemonhood, they gain access to a whole daemon-world worth of power...
> 
> Being the evil Bastards they are, they could just basically have gone
> 
> ...


It comes down to how exciting being a king on the eye of terror can really be. So you play with the warp all day. I mean eventually you'd get bored. Personally, if I was a daemon prince I think it'd be fun picking on the Imperium. And going on campaigns, destroying worlds and fleets that were thought to be unbeatable, or impregnable. Making my name infamous throughout the galaxy. That'd be a lot more fun than just lieing around my home planet in the warp. Especially since being a primarch means you were created for such a thing; its in each primarchs nature. But hey... thats what I would do. I don't buy that idea that they think they are too good to fight the Imperium anymore, even if it was the case, what else would the primarchs be doing? Theres only one thing better than doing battle and thats getting drunk and then layed. I refuse to believe they have good females or whiskey down in the eye of terror


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I mean eventually you'd get bored.


Your applying human ethics and behavioural patterns to daemons, which is a mistake.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your applying human ethics and behavioural patterns to daemons, which is a mistake.


Not necessarly. Daemon Princes still hold ambition and traits that drove them to becoming what they are. They must still hold some ambition whether it is to further themselves in their eyes of their gods or just because they must do something to further entertain their gods.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Exactly, they are still human, just with Daemon "power armour" so to speak, even though they probably do have a bit of the Chaos god essence, so they should be doing what they were doing before, just on a grander scale.

But then, that would n't make sense, because Angron is the only one actually acting Khornish.


Magnus is not gaining knowledge, or plotting on a grand scale, just being a crybaby.

Mortorian never seemed to want to be hugged by Granpa Nurgle, so he probably despises himself.

Fulgrim is lost, not even enjoying his Daemonhood at all.

I would storm the Cadian gate like they were giving away money. Ban me for 100 years, no problem, the nanosecond that 100 yrs is up, it's me again, stirring up shit all over.

In 10,000 years, I would have made at least 100 attacks. The Imperium would KNOW that Chaos don't joke.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Not necessarly. Daemon Princes still hold ambition and traits that drove them to becoming what they are. They must still hold some ambition whether it is to further themselves in their eyes of their gods or just because they must do something to further entertain their gods.


Not necessarily. They have already achieved the ultimate reward for servitude to Chaos, there is no longer any need to further seek recognition or favour from the gods. Their mere existence as Daemon Princes is enough to empower their patrons.

They are now part of the Warp and therefore ever-lasting, they cannot be killed and are now eternally part of the ebb and flow of Chaos. It matters not if the Imperium falls in a year or in ten millennia, they will still be present when it inevitably does. In fact they have probably already experianced its collapse, as well as ceasing to exist all together - It has to be taken into account that they are now part of the warp, where events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect and where time does not exist.

And as for their ambition, sacrificing your mortality and reality, becoming part of a completely different realm which bears no phyiscal rules or matter, no space or time, and being completely reforged in mind, body and soul as an daemonic entity can do a lot to change your perspective, purpose and ambitions.

Also:



Codex Chaos Space Marines 4th Ed said:


> The Daemon Primarchs Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are content to wage wars against their enemies within the Eye of Terror. It is almost unheard of for them to lead forth their warriors from their Daemon Worlds, preferring to leave such petty tasks to favour-seeking fanatical underlings.





nestersan said:


> Exactly, they are still human


No their not.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Not literally human!!!! Sheesh.

Human in the sense that they remember their lives as humans (Primarches), they were not willed into existense by a Chaos god like a regular Daemon. It is not only lust for worshipping a chaos god that makes a non daemon want to go daemon prince, it is about lust for personal gain/power/revenge/anger, basically human emotions.

Which makes me wonder why Kharn and others who have probaly earned it 1000 times over are content to remain human? 

But then Angron has lead his forces out. Twice.... So that is not really accurate.

Based on current BL books, Fulgrim isn't even Fulgrim anymore, he is some minor Slaneeshi Daemon who found an idiot and currupted him and won more power after that.


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## the god emporer (Aug 2, 2009)

sorry to go off topic but......

FOR THE EMPORER


how did dorn die i never knew?


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

the god emporer said:


> sorry to go off topic but......
> 
> FOR THE EMPORER
> 
> ...



a: Death to your corpse god
b: Start your own thread.



> Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.2


--- http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I agree with what you said Above Child...

but then about becoming more famous, I doubt that. The general who sits in his office and smokes cigars is paid more and more well known than Private Jones who went on a 7 KS in real life.

So effectively it's the same, Daemon Primarch X sends Daemon Primarch X's endless hordes of suck ups at a planet for his amusement, the Defenders cry out ARGH ITS DAEMON PRIMARCH X's Fleet of death, or whatever, and so the Song is sung in the Name of Daemon Primarch X, while hes sat their playing with himself in the warp.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

ROT said:


> I agree with what you said Above Child...
> 
> but then about becoming more famous, I doubt that. The general who sits in his office and smokes cigars is paid more and more well known than Private Jones who went on a 7 KS in real life.
> 
> So effectively it's the same, Daemon Primarch X sends Daemon Primarch X's endless hordes of suck ups at a planet for his amusement, the Defenders cry out ARGH ITS DAEMON PRIMARCH X's Fleet of death, or whatever, and so the Song is sung in the Name of Daemon Primarch X, while hes sat their playing with himself in the warp.


But there are other powerful Daemon Princes than the primarch daemon princes. They go around personally with daemons, marines, and fanatics and are much, or if not becoming more popular and powerful the the Daemon Prince primarchs.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree.

Sooner or later, the lazyness of the aligned Primarches will get them overthrown by others who are more favoured.(realistically).

Primarch or not, a Daemon prince is a daemon prince. Lexicanum is filled with other Daemon Princes who are actively spreading ruin. Even though, like the Primarchs they have no need to, they all have Demon Worlds as well.

They just do it cause they want to see the Imperium suffer.

Which is why I say the Primarchs are self pitying and just idle


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## Clegane (Jun 17, 2010)

While I like the Idea that until some loyalist primarchs come back to the fray the Daemon primarchs won't come out to play, I think Chaos' problem is well Chaos! They fight amongst themselves so much to achieve power in the EOT they can't agree on attacks against the Imperium. 
Even Abbaddon who can sometimes cobble up an alliance among Chaos wargroups is perfectlly willing to betray other Chaos warriors to benefit the Black Legion. They don't have an united sense of purpose.... even the main chaos gods challenge each other and when they succeed on some level they turn on each other often for the spoils of war.:angry:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> But there are other powerful Daemon Princes than the primarch daemon princes. They go around personally with daemons, marines, and fanatics and are much, or if not becoming more popular and powerful the the Daemon Prince primarchs.


Yes there are more powerful Daemon Princes than the Daemon Primarchs, but there is not many recorded occassions when even they have led expeditions into real-space, and certainly not as many recorded attempts as the Daemon Primarchs themselves, just to recap we have:

Angron's Dominion of Fire.
Angron's First War for Armageddon.
Fulgrim's defeat of the Ultramarines and killing of Guilliman.
Magnus' attempt to destory the Space Wolves.
And who is to say that they havn't been involved in other invasions/conspiracies/activities in the Imperium/Realspace, their presence just may not have been confirmed by the Imperium, or even speculated (therefore we don't know about them).

Also, just because they don't lead their Legions into Realspace very often doesn't mean they are losing favour with their patrons. They have already gained the ultimate reward for servitude to Chaos, and by merely existing are a great boon for their gods. But by waging war, spreading pestilence, plotting and enacting sensual experiances within the Eye of Terror itself against their patron's enemies is probably more valuable to their respective gods than leading pointless, glory-seeking expeditions into Realspace. Especially considering that for the most part the Chaos Gods care nothing about the affairs of mortals or events in Realspace, the vast majority of the time the vast majority of their consciousness is focused solely on the Great Game, therefore its only logical that this also applies to their daemon servants (incluing the Daemon Primarchs).



nestersan said:


> They just do it cause they want to see the Imperium suffer.


Thats an assumpion.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

> Fulgrim's defeat of the Ultramarines and killing of Guilliman.
> Magnus' attempt to destory the Space Wolves.


Those sounded like vendettas, like Peturabo and Dorn....


After that they just chilled, cause the last human concerns had been fulfilled it seems.

While Angron is still pissed at his dad and wants to keep breaking his dad's stuff.

You don't think the human Daemon princes who actively attack the Imperium are doing it because they are really hateful and bitter toward the Imperium ?

I think some of them feel betrayed by what the Imperium has become, and how they see themselves treated.

Considering humans are probably the weakest of all races, why else would the human Daemon princes join Abbadon for example? 

He plays no favorites, is not particularly powerful (in comparison) and working along with hated Daemons from other gods would only happen if there was a mutual more hated enemy. 

I think if I currupted/slaughtered Eldar I would gain more favour than doing the same to a human, consdering the greater psyker powers and scarcity of them. Humans are easier to catch, so it is easier to slaughter 100 billion of them in one sitting, than a craftworld full of eldar.

Isn't the point of Daemonhood to acquire ever increasing amounts of power ?

While you can idle away doing jack for eternity, the naked ambition that got you to where you are must inspire you to even greater power

In the BL books, I don't see much infighting going on. All the fighting I read about took place before and it's mostly everyone beating up on the Emperor's Children for trying to get more victims for Slaneesh. When I say infighting I don't mean ten or twenty ships and a planet, I mean Black crusade level type Fighting. 

The Black Legion and the Iron warriors and the Word Bearers still have huge Legions I think.

Hang on...

It's funny how the Aligned Primarchs don't really have any solidified armies.

World Eaters are broken, as are the Emp's Children, and The Thousand Sons. Thypus seems more to run the plague marines than Mortarian does.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Those sounded like vendettas, like Peturabo and Dorn....


Perhaps. But the rest of my previous post still stands.



nestersan said:


> While Angron is still pissed at his dad and wants to keep breaking his dad's stuff.


Probably, although that is an assumption. I could come up with several ulterior (and probably more likely) motives for Angron's Dominion of Fire and First War for Armageddon than 'Hes still pissed at the Emperor'.



nestersan said:


> You don't think the human Daemon princes who actively attack the Imperium are doing it because they are really hateful and bitter toward the Imperium ?


Not necessarily no I dont.



nestersan said:


> Considering humans are probably the weakest of all races, why else would the human Daemon princes join Abbadon for example?


Because joining Abaddon gives them the one and only chance to be part of a gargantuan staged invasion of realspace...



nestersan said:


> Isn't the point of Daemonhood to acquire ever increasing amounts of power ?


Daemonhood can be seen as the endgame. It is the ultimate reward for a Chaos follower, once achieved they can do whatever the hell they want with untold power at their fingertips. If they desire further influence or power, this is achieved through participating in the Great Game (which all the Daemon Primarchs do).



nestersan said:


> While you can idle away doing jack for eternity, the naked ambition that got you to where you are must inspire you to even greater power


They don't do 'jack'. As I said in my previous post the Chaos Daemons codex states that the Chaos Gods for the most part care nothing of the affairs of mortals and the vast majority of the time the vast majority of their consciousness if focussed solely on the Great Game, its only logical that their followers, worshipppers and above all their daemons, follow this line of thought - the vast majority of the time they are focussed solely on the Great Game.



nestersan said:


> In the BL books, I don't see much infighting going on. All the fighting I read about took place before and it's mostly everyone beating up on the Emperor's Children for trying to get more victims for Slaneesh. When I say infighting I don't mean ten or twenty ships and a planet, I mean Black crusade level type Fighting.


Trust me, it does happen. Just because BL novels havn't covered it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (after all BL are often too busy writing about bolter-porn and loyalist Astartes). The Inter-Legionary wars within the Eye of Terror have probably been more bitter and on a grander scale than most Black Crusades, not only that but the Eye of Terror is in a constant state of warfare, not only due to the Great Game but also because of the bitter rivalries between the mortal followers of Chaos who reside there.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Ok, can you tell me one of your ideas regarding Angron's interest ?

Sibling anger toward a parent taken on that scale can be a terrible thing. I seen familiy members butcher each other in RL.

In the Angron story, he thought the Emp was no better than the people who used to force him to fight. Someone without honour, who did not even pay him due, and dumped him unceremoniously into his Legion, he even thought his Legion were people sent by the Emp to fight him.

Not to mention he left his bretren to die. He was crying over it, and I really don't see any of those guys except "Snuggle Blanket" Dorn, crying over anything, especially considering the rivers of blood Angron spilled during the time as a gladiator and during his revolt he was a hard, hard man.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Ok, can you tell me one of your ideas regarding Angron's interest ?


Regarding the Dominion of Fire and the First War for Armageddon? Most likely the Great Game. It is everything to the Chaos Gods and their Daemons, its their entire purpose. If Khorne willed the invasion of Armageddon to bring him some advantage in the Great Game, Angron had no choice but to oblidge, and even if he did he wouldn't have thought twice. Or indeed maybe Khorne did wish to make war on the Imperium, but ultimately I don't think its as simple as Angron mustering up old emotions and thoughts of vengenace, thoughts and emotions which I consider for the most part to be anathema to him now and completely behind him. 

He may still maintain some motion of vengeance directed at the Imperium for the past, but I think for the most part this gets drowned out by his current being and purpose.



nestersan said:


> Sibling anger toward a parent taken on that scale can be a terrible thing. I seen familiy members butcher each other in RL.


You've really got to grasp that Angron is not a human, or even a Primarch anymore. He is a daemon, and daemons are so far removed from humanity that we cannot really comprehend them at all. 

Im not denying that Angron despised the Emperor, of course he did, what the Emperor did to Angron has no obvious justification at all. But that was ten thousand years ago, when Angron had conceptions of honour and loyalty. Angron is now an avatar of Khorne, the entire fibre of his being is made up of anger and hatred, he is rage incarnate. All he cares about is shedding blood and taking skulls for his master, any concept of loyalty or honour has long been drowned out in blood. To us humans, he would seem irrational, illogical and insane. But thats only because we cannot grasp or comprehend entites of the warp, or their desires and purposes.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I can see your point, but I like to think that some humanity (as in memories of the past, still live inside them).

Daemons have feelings too I would imagine, didn't I read about some Khornate Daemon attacking Khorne him-self because of some whisperings of Tzeentch ?

That's not a Daemon Prince who did this, this was a Pure Daemon who was formed entirely by the will of the blood God.



> Khorne snatched up Skarbrand in his clawed grip, and choked him until all vestiges of personality and thought had left the Bloodthirster, leaving only his rage behind.


So if that source is accurate, a Daemon who is supposed to have only his makers will and purpose, does have personality and his own mental processes.

So it seemed that Khorn removed everything leaving only anger and hatred behind. This seems like the Daemon was able to think and process even blasphemous thoughts.

I would then imagine that a former human would have even more of his own personality and thoughts as vestiges of a previous life.


Another question:

Lorgar is a Daemon prince of Chaos as well, since he worships/venerates Chaos undivided, how exactly was he elevated ?


What is he an avatar of ?

He was still coherent enough to tell his Followers to leave him alone while he meditates, so how does he embody Chaos ?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Daemons have feelings too I would imagine, didn't I read about some Khornate Daemon attacking Khorne him-self because of some whisperings of Tzeentch ?
> 
> That's not a Daemon Prince who did this, this was a Pure Daemon who was formed entirely by the will of the blood God:
> 
> ...


Yeah, most daemons are removed from their patrons enough to maintain a sense of individuality:



> ...This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the warp.


But regardless, this personality is entirely dictated by their patron. For example, you can't have jolly and happy bloodletters. Daemons of the Blood God are always going to have the sole purpose of maiming and destroying, but they each maintain enough of an individual consciousness to have their own ambitions, slights, and track records as examples. In regards to Skarbrand, Khorne choked him until 'all vestiges of personality and thought had left', it depends how you interpret it but it could mean that his individuality (including his own ambitions etc) was lost and is now just a smouldering avatar of rage who just mindlessly slays in Khorne's name with no other thought, ambition or purpose. 

Now bringing this back to Angron, yes hes an avatar of the Blood God and yes he is rage incarnate, but even as a daemon dependent on Khorne's own power and influence he still retains individuality, a seperate consciousness, his own ambitions etc. He still has a personality of sorts, but it is entirely centred around and dominated by his servitude to Khorne, basically hes always angry and wants to kill things!



nestersan said:


> Another question:
> 
> Lorgar is a Daemon prince of Chaos as well, since he worships/venerates Chaos undivided, how exactly was he elevated ?


Undivided Daemon Princes is a topic that comes up fairly often. It is speculated that they are either elevated by all four Chaos Gods acting in unison (something which I personally refute). By Chaos Undivided itself consciously or otherwise. What I mean by that is the acts they preform cause enough of a 'disturbance' in the warp that effectively they indirectly elevate themselves by having a certain effect on the warp/chaos itself, which then elevates them to daemonhood without the involvement from the consciousness of any individual god.

Aside from that there are other theories, some have postulated that Chaos Undivided is a seperate entity and has a form of consciousness in and of itself, perhaps drawing on the forms and consciousness' of *all* other gods and seperate chaos entities. Others have suggested that the Daemon Prince is elevated by and represents 2 or more seperate Chaos Powers (although this doesn't really roll with the whole 'Undivided' angle) at the same time. Or a minor Chaos God. Or that the individual is so enfused with Chaos Energy (via gifts, or just via his own methods) that he elevates himself to Daemonhood (whilst being lucky not to implode before hand).

Ultimately its not entirely clear how Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided are elevated to Daemonhood. People will have their own theories and ideas, its a very interesting topic though.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

So it seems, that as an aspiring Chaos Champion, it is a somewhat safer bet to go for Chaos undivided...

I am thinking the unaligned Daemon Princes have even more of an individuality than that of an aligned Daemon Prince, and they would also be more rare.

Reading an old issue of Warhammer Monthly, and a Khornate Deamon Prince, still looking human, but unable to talk other than "RRRR" is blown the hell up by a Krak Grenade. I don't think it killed him, but he fell into a blood sea, and was not heard from.

For a Daemon Prince, his power was kinda awfully weak. Although he beat up all the Blood Angels without getting a scratch.

The Eye of Terror seems like an interesting place to hang out.

Back to Angron, since he is angry and we both agree he has a sense of personality, that rage I think is still focused primarily on the Imperium. Khorne cares not where the blood flows, so whether he is hacking Slaneeshies or human to death, it would still feed into Khornes power.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I personally don't think he's angry with the Imperium anymore. The emperor is basically dead, he's what keeping Terra and the Milky Way from becomming another eye of terror, but I think Angron is content in the Imperium's suffering if indeed he even cares.

If he has a venedeta, then I think that it would lie with the Space Wolves and the Grey Knights who ended his battle for Armagedon. Probably go and masacre them and retreat to the warp.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes there are more powerful Daemon Princes than the Daemon Primarchs, but there is not many recorded occassions when even they have led expeditions into real-space, and certainly not as many recorded attempts as the Daemon Primarchs themselves, just to recap we have:
> 
> Angron's Dominion of Fire.
> Angron's First War for Armageddon.
> ...



I just wanted to point out the Deamon Princes who have been shown to have as much (if not more) recorded occassions.

Ve'Meth: Nurgle DP that wanted to take as many worlds as possible to give Papa Nurgle huge power boon. Helps Nurgle in the Great Game.

Abraxes: Tzeentch DP that wanted to take the Soul Drinkers as his personal CSMs, and used them to undermine Ve'Meth. Thus playing the Great Game.

Ss'll Sh'Karr: Very Powerful DP of Khorn who defeated a Tzeenth ruler for a treasured Daemon World in the Maelstrom. He was then imprison and realese many centuries later to reign hell on the now Slannesh ruled planet. His mindset was simply ruling in the name of Khorn.

The Warsmith: In Storm of Iron this powerful Lord reaached Daemonhood and left his warband after the Campaign to join the Legions in the warp. He was not align to any Chaos God, but he wanted to play the Great Game it seems more than continue rule of the Iron Warriors.

Omphalos Daemonium: Another Khorn DP, that was bound to a Daemon Train by a uber Blood Thirster. Was set free and possessing the Slaughter Man (a powerful Iron Warrior) planned its revenge on the Blood Thirster. The DP just wanted to prove to Khorn he was the Better. Not really the Great Game involve here, just interfighting for Khorns grace. 

Doombreed: Rumored to be one of Khorns first DP and older than any other. He was suppose to have been part of the Heresy. He was even suppose to have been on Horus ship when the Emperor KOed Horus. If this is accurate, as little to nothing is written on him, then he was not really playing a Great Game, but rather sent by Khorn to back Horus.

Im sure their is MANY more DPs fetured in BL and Codexes, and the one thing is they all have thier own Personalities and Free Will. They seek continue Favore from their perspective God, but they will do their own thing as well. Like th Primarch DPs, Dps seem to Infight or be content to rule a Daemon World filled with all the worship they desire.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I hate to become embroiled within an argument, which will _essentially_ deviate into varying members trying to assert mortal categories/emotional traits, onto something so emotionally-wrought it is barely more than a faceless, gibbering mass of Warp-energy/splinter of the essense of its patron. Bar those who have accumulated such a mass/quantity of this ''stuff''' that a singular, self-sufficient and altruistic (Bar their allegience to their God) entity has formed - Greater Daemons; or retains some of its mortal intelligence. AKA *Child-of-the-Emperor *knows best kiddies.

However, may I ask -without a shit-ton of spoilers from_ Legion_- didn't Guilliman slay Alpharius or Omegon?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I just wanted to point out the Deamon Princes who have been shown to have as much (if not more) recorded occassions.


Thanks for that _Warlock_, although we were referring to Daemon Princes who were more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs, not just any Daemon Princes (although in retrospect it was kind of pointless anyway, especially given we don't really have a great method of measuring favour and power among Daemon Princes).



bobss said:


> didn't Guilliman slay Alpharius or Omegon?


A perfect time for a change of subject I think, hurrah for _bobss_! 

Now, the account of Alpharius' death comes solely from Inquisitor Kravin, who passes on a first-hand account of an Ultramarines Captain who was present at the Battle of Eskrador (supposedly where Alpharius was killed).

Inquisitor Kravin has since vanished, and is highly suspected of being corrupt and possibly a member of the Cult of the Hydra, working for the Alpha Legion to plant misinformation in Imperial records. Thus the Inquisition and even the Ultramarines are highly suspicious of Kravin's works. So all in all its plausable that the Ultramarine Captain's account was tampered with or completely fabricated by Kravin, and indeed its even plausable that the Battle of Eskrador never occured at all.

Other reasons which make the survival of Alpharius more likely are the following:

1). Alpharius had no reason to face Guilliman in single-combat, he had nothing to prove or no vendetta to chase.
2). Since _Legion_ has been published, we know that all Alpha Legion Astartes referred to themselves as 'Alpharius' infront of outsiders, and went to great efforts to physically resemble their Primarch. If the Battle of Eskrador did occur, it seems likely that Guilliman mistook another Alpha Astartes or Captain for Alpharius.
3). According to the account of the Battle of Eskrador, Alpharius was slain in a single-blow by Guilliman. This seems unlikely for one of a Primarch's abilities, even when facing another Primarch. This further reinforces the theory that Guilliman faced an Alpha Astartes posing as Alpharius.
4). Alpharius, always knowing that secrecy was the greatest weapon of the Alpha Legion, would benefit greatly from having the Imperium believe he was dead.

And so on.

But ultimately even if Alpharius was killed on Eskrador, Omegon presumably survived and took over sole command of the Last Legion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

In short; a solid maybe.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I hope I get some more out of Angron and Peturabo in the upcoming HH books. After reading Lord of the Night, my hatred for the Imperium knows no bounds..


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That's only because you read a book about a group of total nutters and perceive it to be trueth. Iow, you know nothing!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nestersan said:


> I hope I get some more out of Angron and Peturabo in the upcoming HH books. After reading Lord of the Night, my hatred for the Imperium knows no bounds..


You should read Soul Hunter. That would really piss you off with the Imperium if your a fan of the Night Lords. I'm not sure if you read it or not, as you do have its sequel as your avatar.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Maybe the other daemon primarchs are put off by the idea of having to respawn in the warp when they die.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> That's only because you read a book about a group of total nutters and perceive it to be trueth. Iow, you know nothing!


Not all of us can be fortunate to be all knowing like yourself.....:victory:

Yay you !!

@ckcrawford , yup I read Soul Hunter, my stack of Bl books is growing slowly.

Waiting for the First Heretic and the rest of the Night Lords novels, and some more on Honsou. Hoping Bl does something game-changing at some point in future regarding the 'out to lunch' Primarchs.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is alright, I shall permit your continued existance.... For now. Lol


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It is alright, I shall permit your continued existance.... For now. Lol


One day I shall ascend and turn you into a daemon spawn.:threaten:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You can't, as a sw I have far to many rp for you to ever get a spell off. Muahahahaha.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

The Inquisition is watching your den of mutant psykers....Sooner of later we will currupt a High Lord and pronounce the entire Legion Renegade..

Your soul will come shrieking to the warp sooner or later.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Not all of us can be fortunate to be all knowing like yourself.....:victory:
> 
> Yay you !!
> 
> ...


After _Iron Warrior_ the novel, Graham McNeill screws over Honsou. Sucks as I almost cried waiting for the last novel on Honsou, _The Chapter's Due_. A bunch of Ultramarines luck like always but shit happens right?


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Especially since being a primarch means you were created for such a thing; its in each primarchs nature.


I'd think that the direct physical and sensory exposure to the warp that comes with daemonic ascension would change your nature, not to mention the actual physical change of discarding your body and becoming a being of pure warp energy. I would not put it beyond the Chaos Gods to do a little psychological adjustment as part of the ascension process.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

randian said:


> I'd think that the direct physical and sensory exposure to the warp that comes with daemonic ascension would change your nature, not to mention the actual physical change of discarding your body and becoming a being of pure warp energy. I would not put it beyond the Chaos Gods to do a little psychological adjustment as part of the ascension process.


It definitley would effect them to some extent, especially the more dedicated ones who are serving the gods directly. If the statement though that they leave the Imperium to squabbling chaos champions than leading it themselves, shows they do have free reign to some extent. I just wonder what they could possibly find more entertaining than seeing the Imperium burn. But the mind of daemons is not for us humans to contemply.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I just wonder what they could possibly find more entertaining than seeing the Imperium burn.


Daemon Princes arguably have more personality than Greater Daemons, owing to their mortal origins. As far as seeing the Imperium burn, they've already done enough of that to warrant daemonic ascension, why not move on?


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

But do any of them actually serve ? Short of Angron ?

It is all well and good to say they are contemplating chaos like Lorgar and playing the Great Game, but that smacks of lazyness. 

Especially since the power they are given seems to differ from Chaos god to Chaos god.

Has there ever been a case where Daemonhood was stripped from a Daemon prince ? Or one destroyed utterly like Horus's soul was ?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

In the book Daemon World, I was convinced that Arguleon Veq was a daemon prince. I'm not sure what was up. But it seemed that he was so gifted with chaos that he could be whatever form he wanted to take. In many cases though Arguleon Veq has lost favor with the chaos gods, though not killed. I was a bit surprised that after his deeds in destroying the planet that the Gods didn't just obliterate him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

nestersan said:


> It is all well and good to say they are contemplating chaos like Lorgar and playing the Great Game, but that smacks of lazyness.


Why does that seem like lazyness to you?!

The Great Game is an eternal conflict, one that rages to such an extent that it takes the vast majority of the Chaos Gods' consciousness and energy constantly focused upon it. The warp is a battlefield, unrelentingly fought over by the daemonic legions of Chaos.

If you calling the Daemon Primarchs lazy by partaking primarily in the Great Game, then your calling the Chaos Gods and all Daemons lazy as well! Which to me, seems absurd.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

nestersan said:


> Has there ever been a case where Daemonhood was stripped from a Daemon prince ? Or one destroyed utterly like Horus's soul was ?


Not to my knowledge, but the codex does say that once they belong to a chaos god, their existence is essentially slaved forever to the will of their master. 

A daemon Prince will forever serve their patron in each action they take, so I do not believe the gods ever have cause to revoke their gifts.

That said, I am sure they would be capable if they so chose.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Has there ever been a case where Daemonhood was stripped from a Daemon prince ? Or one destroyed utterly like Horus's soul was ?


Khorne did once destroy the mind of one of his rebellious greater daemons. Utter destruction a la Horus is obviously possible in principle, though I know of no examples of it.

Daemonhood not something you can remove. Elevation to Daemon Prince and concomitant conversion to a warp entity is a one-way trip. Your god has no means of giving you your (or in my opinion any) material body back, not that any failure or rebellion so egregious as to warrant such a punishment would be treated so leniently. Mental/Spiritual destruction is the best you can hope for, as your "body", so to speak, is still valuable. You'd become the equivalent of a Spawn with the power of a Daemon Prince.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> A daemon Prince will forever serve their patron in each action they take, so I do not believe the gods ever have cause to revoke their gifts.


Daemon Princes do it because they _want_ to, not because they were _created_ to like regular daemons. I think that pleases the Chaos Gods immensely. Even Greater Daemons, who have a measure of free will, are essentially mindlessly slavish sycophants at heart.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

randian said:


> Khorne did once destroy the mind of one of his rebellious greater daemons. Utter destruction a la Horus is obviously possible in principle, though I know of no examples of it.
> 
> Daemonhood not something you can remove. Elevation to Daemon Prince and concomitant conversion to a warp entity is a one-way trip. Your god has no means of giving you your (or in my opinion any) material body back, not that any failure or rebellion so egregious as to warrant such a punishment would be treated so leniently. Mental/Spiritual destruction is the best you can hope for, as your "body", so to speak, is still valuable. You'd become the equivalent of a Spawn with the power of a Daemon Prince.


I don't think the Chaos Gods would care what happened to the Daemon Prince if they removed their blessing- the fact that the Prince would be utterly destroyed would probably be their aim.


randian said:


> Daemon Princes do it because they _want_ to, not because they were _created_ to like regular daemons. I think that pleases the Chaos Gods immensely. Even Greater Daemons, who have a measure of free will, are essentially mindlessly slavish sycophants at heart.


Daemon Princes _have_ to fulfil their God's wishes, they are as reliant on their God's good will as any Daemon, possibly more so as when a Daemon is destroyed that's it it just doesn't exist but with a Prince their soul would be destined for an eternity of torment.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why does that seem like lazyness to you?!
> 
> The Great Game is an eternal conflict, one that rages to such an extent that it takes the vast majority of the Chaos Gods' consciousness and energy constantly focused upon it. The warp is a battlefield, unrelentingly fought over by the daemonic legions of Chaos.
> 
> If you calling the Daemon Primarchs lazy by partaking primarily in the Great Game, then your calling the Chaos Gods and all Daemons lazy as well! Which to me, seems absurd.


No, I didn't mean lazyness like that, was at work and couldn't finish my sentence properly. What I meant was that in the various BL books, we see Daemon Princes and Aspiring Champs furthering the cause of their gods.

Considering what a Primarch it is lazyness to just say they are playing the great game, when there are many tales to tell of the game playing that they are doing. I don't think BL is gonna go anywhere with them for now, and it is frustrating. (Kinda like waiting for Marvel to talk about Wolverines past when I was still in high school)


In Mortarions case, who wasn't seeking it, didn't want it (unless his impassioned plea at Nikea was bullshit, which I doubt), was Nurgle just playing 'me too' and wanted a Primarch for himself ?



Also those Daemons are not as slaved to the will of the creatore gods as is thought, cause the one that Khorne mind-wiped was under the slight influence of Tzeentch when he attacked Khorne. That daemon was not a former human, he was a pure Khornate daemon, created from the will of Khorne and given life. So for him to be swayed by another god is kinda funny.

Almost like a Custodian attacking the Emp.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

A recent example of a demon prince being destroyed forever can be found in the new ultramarine book Chapters due. In it, the demon prince mkar was banished to the nothingness (and hence not the warp), and it was the one thing that he was truly afraid of.

There could be another reason why the other primarchs haven't appeared other than angron is because of the realities and consequences of leaving the eye of terror. 

Most demons require sacrifices to be made before entering the material realm, the stronger the demon the stronger the required sacrifice (the summoning of magnus comes to mind in this case). Maybe the reason why they are not walking around here was because the cost to materialize them is too high. 

Alternatively, the risk could be too high. When angron was banished back to the warp, maybe it hurt him so much that the other primarchs thought twice of leading a crusade of their own.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I must add though daemons do not care of the affairs of mortals, but they do care about creating devastation which furthers my point.



> Though often preoccupied by the Great Game of their creators, the Daemons of Chaos lust after the mortal realm. It is here that the Daemons can dominate and destroy, conquer and corrupt, in a material universe that can permanently be changed. For this reason, Daemons are constantly seeking egress into the realm of mortals where they can wreak havoc and increase the power of their maters and gain worshippers of their own.


-_Chaos Daemons Codex page 14_

The next piece of text brings me tp the conclusion that Angron will indeed seek revenge.



> The slight to a 'slain' Daemon's pride is considerable, and the daemon is forced to endure the mockery of its fellows until it can return to corporeal form and avenge itself. The most powerful Daemons will call upon the any servants and tributary lesser daemons to help them achieve their revenge.


_Chaos Daemons Codex page 7_

Basically Angron is pissed... He will come back to get his revenge... the Imperium will pay... and as the Jigsawman in Saw would say "...And yes... there will be blood."


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nestersan said:


> Has there ever been a case where Daemonhood was stripped from a Daemon prince ? Or one destroyed utterly like Horus's soul was ?


According to the CDC, daemons usually are absorbed back to their patrons when they die. There are only a select few that they chose to give respawn points to so that they continue their service as they have potential.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That`s not what I read. The god has to choose to reabsorb the daemon`s energy, otherwise they exist forever. Unless something else has the strength to destroy them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> That`s not what I read. The god has to choose to reabsorb the daemon`s energy, otherwise they exist forever. Unless something else has the strength to destroy them.





> When a Daemon is 'killed' in the material world, it is not truly destroyed but banished to the void. It must remain there regain its strength, and is sometimes absorbed completely by its creator, or will eventually manifest itself again.


 CDC pg.7 

I imagine that Chaos Gods for the most part, have their foot soldier daemons are absorbeds, as they chose not to wait 1000 years so that they get themselves killed again just to wait 1000 years again and so forth. So yes, the god choses whether to "reabsorb" their daemons energy or not. I imagine that they would leave their greatest daemon princes and greater daemons alone, as they will probably shine brightly after their banishment. Replacing one of these would probably hurt then benefit.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Keep in mind that that is myth and conjecture, and that time is meaningless in the warp. The next few lines of the text I believe?


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