# Chaos Terminator Tactica and Discussion



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone, I'm just starting this tactica for one of my favourite units in the game Chaos Terminators. What I am going to do is provide an overview of my own opinions of the unit and would welcome everyone to add their own tactics and experiences. Also I will talk about fluff at some stage, because for some people (like me) fluff is like extra rules that really have to be taken into account. At the same time I will say I'm not stupid and do like to play at a competitive level as well. 


Before beginning however, saying the unit sucks and is broken isn't helpful. I'm writing this because I love the models and want to use them. So lets see if we can put our heads together and get around the problems with them in their current form. 

*Which Mark?*
Well as we all know Terminators aren't fearless and to be honest they shouldn't be. The rule should be that if a unit of Terminators is joined by a fearless IC they are fearless until he is killed. That represents their bodyguard type role and also the fact that they aren't stupid and will retreat and fight another day. So....

IOCG - Good and cheap and allows for rerolling LD tests always take unless you are specifcally taking another, no reason not to. This is by far the best mark, I just hope its fluffy when you choose it 

IOS - I dont like this mark outside of themed lists because it only makes them INT 5 which for me isn't good enough its equal to too many elite units and doesn't beat/equal the real INT monsters like genestealers so really why bother? Also they usually need one powerfist in the unit and that wastes the initiative bonus.

IOK - I actually really like this, basically makes the entire unit champions and gets extra attacks for any powerfists and chainfists.The problem with this is the Icon bearer can die which negates its positive effects, still a good alternate to IOCG.

IOT - Really good for this unit as it helps against the weaponry that it fears the most, High Strength Ap 1-2, also helps in close combat. Kind of expensive but for its benefits in and out of combat I like it.

ION - I don't like this outside of theme lists. It too expensive, I know its only 5pts more than IOT but that icon gives alot more than this. This only really helps against small arms fire which isnt good enough for its cost


*To Champion or Not to Champion?
*This is a difficult question, because the benefit of an extra attack is permanant unlike the IOK. Therefore I suggest a single champ per unit and give him the equipment of what you want that list to do. This means if its anti-tank, get him a chanifist, anti-elites, MC, infantry give him twin-linked lightning claws or a powerfist. Any more than one champion seems silly fluff wise, and to make a whole unit champions is too expensive.

*
The Equipment*
We have great customization for our guys that should be kept intact when we get our next codex 

*Single-Lightning Claw* - No never, its the same cost as two and these are best on champs, so your denying yourself that extra 4th attack by not doubling up.
*
Pair of Lightning Claws* - Yes, one pair on a champion, anymore of these and the unit becomes completely one dimensional and we have better units that can fulfil that specific a role and are cheaper aka Khorne Berzerkers

*Powerfist* -Yes get one, could be on the champ to get an extra fist attack. There are too many things like dreadnoughts, MC, IC, that just warrant the inclusion of aat least one.
*
Chainfist* - Yes again! I really like these, great on a champ for an extra attack, all the benefits of powerfist and extra D6 for vehicle penetration and for only 5 points more. You never know when this will come in handy and for 5pts and still getting powerfist attacks for MC etc great.
*
Combi-Weapons* - I'm not going to do the mathhammer for this, but lets face it, if we want to kill things with a bolter use other units such as regular CSM, so don't worry about losing twin-linked, always take Combi's. The choice really comes down to melta or plasma or a mix of the two as 4-5 flamers is inefficent (one however can always be welcome) My own opinion, and others may disagree, is that, I prefer the one shot combi-melta on a BS 5 Lord/Sorcerer. For the average joes I like my plasma, great against light vehicles, the back/sides of heavy ones and against MC, plus I can fire too shots at the 12" range of a melta. Plus if I remember correctly melta's only get two D6 at 6". I think this debate stems from this editions obsession with melta. The fact is there are better units to put meltas on.

*Heavy Flamer* - I'm really torn on this, its quite good and pretty cheap at only 5 points, however if we are all honest, its rare to use this more than once, maybe twice, which means I prefer to keep a single combi-flamer handy to ensure a squad is never swamped by gaunts or Boyz. However if you use your Terminators in a Landraider you should probably take it then so you can maximize the number of targets you can assault reliably, meaning you can give hordes or armour 4 enemies something to worry about.

*Reaper Autocannon* - I like these alot better than the HF because its great at popping light vehicles so we can get to the juicey bits inside, taking down skimmers and wounding MC and we can move at shoot. I always take one. Some people say its over priced but ruining even one light vehicle and its made its 25pts back and more. Also don't forget these can be handy on a Termicide squad, because its twin linked, rerolling those hits usually ensures it makes its points back, and if you deepstrike behind or at the sides of most vehicles you've almost guaranteed a kill.


Thats it so far, get those comments in and don't worry more is yet to come......


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Next up we have

*Squad Size and How to Use*
I'm putting these two things together because depending on how you use the Terminators will dictate how large a squad you need.

*Land Raider* - First off we have the famous Landraider tactic, 5 Terminators, variously kitted out rushing forwards in the safety of a big metal tomb (car, sorry). I will be open and honest about my loathing of this vehicle especially in its current form. It dies to one lucky shot, if its immobized its useless, and the biggest problem from a Terminator tactica point of view is you've just added 220-240pts (depending on kit) to the price of your squad. I really want to hear some other opinions on this in particular, but my advice, avoid, it's too expensive, limited to five models, one shot death (even though its tough) and also when your Terminators are dropped off they need support from other units anyway because five is too small to last long, meaning your 400+ pts are wasted.

*Termicide* - For shame, For Shame! Our precious Terminator armour that can't ever be replaced being thrown away on such a callous tactic. Ok in all seriousness the tactic is pretty darn good. A 3 man squad with combi's melta or plasma 105pts you can't beat that bargain basement price. It gets the job done, and to be honest even if it doesn't your not out much. A good tactic especially if you have a few points to spare. Fluff wise lets imagine them as Kamikazes going after that aircraft carrier (aka A14 Vehicle)

*Footslogging* - Probably my favourite tactic, they look awesome doing this, they draw alot of fire away from other units and because they are walking you need 7-10 models minimum which is a great excuse to see lots of them on the tabletop. Obviously you want the Reaper Autocannon so you can walk and pickoff some skimmers, light vehicles, MC wounds etc, combi's are questionable though, I think only plasma is viable on this build, but still keep that powerfist and chainfist in there as you never know what you might meet. The best thing about footslogging like this is, even though it is slow, they really can be given an entire area to themselves and can be trusted to either deny it to the enemy, or contest it in such a way that they draw more fire and attention than they cost you, leaving the rest of your army free to get on with their business. In saying that, don't leave them totally on an island, make sure your other units are taking advantage of the hail of fire no longer being directed at them. 


*Lords and Sorcerers*
I'm going to finish by discussing Lord and Sorcerer Terminators and how they can add to a Terminator squad. The great thing about these is how fluffy they are, its alot easier to imagine them leading a warband than two daemon princes all the time. Yes they aren't eternal warrior, but 2+/5+ is hard to kill especially in a squad.

*Terminator Lord* - If you choose a Terminator Lord you've made your squad alot more killy in close combat no matter what the set-up, what I do recommend though is a combi-melta on this guy because he has a BS5 meaning you've got a great chance of making that one shot count. Also don't think you can't take a powerfist or chainfist on him, yes it wastes his initiative, but that extra attack can be golden at times, as for a daemon weapon, simply put, undivided extra strength and attacks good, Nurgle wounding on 4+ and rerolls against meq great, Khorne don't bother as it will only kill you, Tzeentch is fine because you get a better inv save to help against wounding yourself, slaanesh looks good but on most things worth insta killing like MC your wounding on 5's and 6's kind of a red herring that one. 

*Terminator Sorcerer* - The sorcerer is actually really interesting and customizable as a Terminator, as before add that combi-melta, and if you want advice on the various powers go read about them elsewhere for more depth. But for my money, I would choose Wind of Chaos, as because I love the Reaper autocannon, you are still getting the best possible flamer template weapon we have in the squad, meaning your great against hordes, elites, MEQ, and glance vehicles. Pretty awesome in my opinion and keeps him relatively cheap and adds the most to a Terminator squad which can already kill things in close combat anyway. Finally that force weapon shouldnt be underrated. 


*Character Terminators*
In our codex we have two of these, a Mr Abaddon and a Mr Typhus. For me adding these characters to a squad can be too expensive to have them footslogging and therefore becomes the only time I actually recommend a Land Raider. The reason being 4 Terminators, plus either of these two can survive longer in the middle of an enemy army unlike 5 regulars on their own IMO.

*Abaddon* should only really be used at 2000+ games, he is awesome and all, but him, plus land raider, plus 4 friends is a Deathstar unit that will win big or have you wondering why you didn't buy lots of other things instead. Equipping his buddies is really tricky, I think IOCG is the way to go so that they don't decide to carry Abaddon to safety off the board (  ) he basically kills the MC and dreadnoughts by himself, so just keep the chainfist to help get that extra D6 for A14 targets. Risky, but hey when you win, what a story, when you lose, it's only Abaddon, and sure he is a poor man's Horus anyway. Just make sure you write his success or failure in epic style and he pays for himself.

*Typhus* on the other hand is actually a steal for his points. Where to begin? His daemon weapon, which is also a force weapon (for all you rule Nazis his weapon is the same as the Plaguebringer, not the undivided weapon) he gets Blight grenades which benefit the squad, and he gets Nurgles Rot (underrated vs Hordes) and Wind of Chaos (awesome) as part of the bargain and better yet never needs a psychic test to use them (screw you Eldar, Marines, and Tyranids). Personally I love this characters fluff and his rules and just wish I ran Death Guard. As for his for friends, MON is ok in this situation, although again IOCG might be better, give two a Powerfist/Chainfist 4 Combi's x2 melta x2 plasma and we are good.


Anyway folks, I think thats everything covered. As I said, the reason I am writing this is too discuss tactics on how to use our Terminators. I am not an expert with a million games played, these are just my opinions and I hope everyone else will chip in and give their two cents on these guys. That way I can eventually go back and re-edit this in a finalized form and more importantly try to get it so we see more of them on the tabletop (and GW rewards me for a boost in the sale of the models)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

I have to disagree with you about the Icon of Slaanesh.

Its cheap as chips, and makes you strike before MEQ.
Id say its a bargain.
And yes, i am aware of the downfall of using it with a Fist, but realistically there is only going to be one of them in the unit anyway.


I would recommend talking about the different builds too.
Termicide, Raider, Retinue, etc.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Just to clarify, I have since repented of my heresy and joined the Inquisition, but I was always (for the year and a half I played) under the impression that if the Icon bearer dies, the benefits still continue, because unlike the Space marine banners (which explicitly say that the effects are lost after the bearer is killed) there is nothing saying the bonus is lost once the bearer is dead, because I believe that the Icon gives each model an individual mark (effectively). The only thing that is lost is the deep striking help is lost with the icon. Feel free to correct me, but that was always my opinion on the rule.

One of the most useful Icons, I personally feel, is the IoN. Makes them T5, which gives them resilience to small arms fire such as lasguns and bolters, which for me have always been the best way to bring down terminators, weight of fire.

Might comment more later, but am a bit to tired atm to make much more sense on the matter.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

> One of the most useful Icons, I personally feel, is the IoN. Makes them T5, which gives them resilience to small arms fire such as lasguns and bolters, which for me have always been the best way to bring down terminators, weight of fire.


too right, if it's one thing that's killed my terminators, it's lasguns, but that extra toughness actually halfs the chance of getting wounded by one (from a 5+ to a 6+), this means only half of my termies die! :biggrin:


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> Just to clarify, I have since repented of my heresy and joined the Inquisition, but I was always (for the year and a half I played) under the impression that if the Icon bearer dies, the benefits still continue, because unlike the Space marine banners (which explicitly say that the effects are lost after the bearer is killed) there is nothing saying the bonus is lost once the bearer is dead, because I believe that the Icon gives each model an individual mark (effectively). The only thing that is lost is the deep striking help is lost with the icon. Feel free to correct me, but that was always my opinion on the rule.


Page 81 of the CSM Codex...
"If the Icon bearer is killed, all the effects of the Icon are lost."

Seems fairly straight forward lol.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Equipping his buddies is really tricky, I think IOCG is the way to go so that they don't decide to carry Abaddon to safety of the board


IOCG is pointless here because Abbadon makes the terminators fearless and there is no way that Abbadon should be dying before them. With the blissgiver and its use against MCs I think its worth it. You may need 5s or 6s to wound an MC, but you only need one. If you roll a 3 or better for the DW, in my experience at least, you should have enough attacks to get that 6. If the MC is an EW then I dont see why you would be attacking it in CC instead of shooting it to death.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Not a bad write up, though there's a few things you might want to touch on.

Firstly, MoS - it doesn't seem like much at first, but it is actually a very good mark for a Land Raider death star unit. Equipping most of the unit with Twin LCs (and at least one with a Chain fist of course), you can have a unit that will absolutely murder any marine unit before it has a chance. With this you can rip through a lot of the elite units out there, and take far less strikes back.

On the equipment side, you should almost always have 1-2 Chain fists in your squad, no powerfists. The extra 5 points is sooo worth it if you ever need to beat down a vehicle.




Ghost792 said:


> IOCG is pointless here because Abbadon makes the terminators fearless


Umm... you might want to double check that bit  He does nothing except beat things to death.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

maddermax said:


> Umm... you might want to double check that bit  He does nothing except beat things to death.


Yeah my brother was reading the BRB and just informed me of that fact. I guess then ICOG is a good icon to give termies.+++


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

MoS on chaos terminators rocks. Striking before loyalist terminators can save your squad and deal some serious damage to the enemy. Now running a PF in a Chaos Terminator squad is dumb. The squad all come with a PW and twinlink bolter for 30 points which is really cheap. the only reason to take a PF is to hit vehicles, and then you should change it to a chainfist. I take terminators on foot as cover for vehicles you take a 10 man squad with autocannons and 1 chainfist with MoS They truge on foot and i lash stuff into them. I currently dont take terminators because i run a Chosen heavy list. But if you want to use this squad as a great assualt squad run them as champions with pair lightning claws with MoS. take abbadon and run them up the board in a landraider with a daemon prince and lash stuff into the squad.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I like to run a squad of four with four combi plasma and one power fist. If I could squeeze in a chain fist, (as well as go to the effort of remodelling it), I would but that unit never really needs it due to the nature of how it works. Deep striking and giving something a dose of plasma. I found this unit more survvieable and relaible than a unit of 5 chosen in a rhino with plasma due to their armour save and close combat weapons. also cheaper.

Another use for terminators is to bring a land raider transport for a unit of bezerkers to mount up in on turn one whilst the terminators deep strike. Not particulary fluffy but well within the rules and quite useful to keep the three heavy support slots free for oblitorators.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Well I'm glad to see this tactica is helping people, even if it is only clarifying the rules, such as the rules about icons and fearless that have been discussed so far.

Regarding Slaanesh icon, it really isn't very good, yay you strike before loyalists, 1. you paid 220-240pts to get there 2. if they are in cover you aren't striking before them 3. If i'm not mistaken a SS is 3++ meaning yes you hit before them, but you probably didn't kill very many 4. If you took a Terminator with a Fist or Chainsfist (as you should) you wasted the initiative 5. You don't have IOCG to allow you to reroll your LD, IOK to help get some extra wounds, IOT / ION for extra defence, congrats you lost the combat and wasted 400+ points. 6. You can't sweeping advance. Finally even if you are successful what you kill will be alot less than the pts you invested killing it in the first place.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

10) 8 PF, 2 PW with IcK, or IcT Anti-monsterous creature, anti-everything. This build is designed to fight the things your regular CSM's can't fight, so now PW's won't cut it.

5) 1-2 PF/CHPF with 5 combi-plas/melta, IcCG. Ranged specialists (Termicide).

5-6) PW with one fist IcG or IcSl. Cheap anti-MeQ

Have a goal in mind achieve it. After all PW's are great, but if you need halp hurting MeQ your not playing CSM right.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I actually must say, the MoS may be the best mark in the game. And the point is, that it is that very ability to go first that makes it so destructive. People who use terminators often accompany them with a hero or special character so that they don't have to spend the points on a powerfist for that extra strength. I like to use champion slaanesh terminators. So lets see what happens with an assault on a space marine unit with five terminators with the mark of Slaanesh. 25 attacks cut into half because of WS 4 vs WS 4. So you hit twelve times with lightning claws. Wound on fours so thats half again. So fsix dead models plus re-rolls which brings it up to nine models dead before they are even able to attack back. Thats... fucken awesome.

The problem with powerfists and terminators, is that you sacrifice quite a bit by going last.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I have to strongly disagree with you ckcrawford, the problem with your imaginary scenario is you are forgetting the fact that in all likely hood you purchased a Land Raider to get you Terminators in that position, plus, ok so they took out a space marine unit, so can lots of other things in our codex, heck, noise marines, and even regular CSM with IOS would probably be just as good at doing what the Terminators did. Plus by not having a Fist, one dreadnought or MC charges you and your probably done for.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

The big problem in tournamnet play is that like normal Chaos marines they cost too much to make them effective and thus deplete the resources of the rest of the army. Mark of Slaneesh and Nurgle are probably the best two but the most efficeint way to use the unit is to deepstrike three to four vanilla terminators onto an icon to support another unit all armed with one type of combi weapon with either a fist or chain fist chucked in just in case.

Although you can make some nasty combinations once you add the lanraider in to deliver the unit it just costs far too much when you have access to the more cheap and efficeint Khorne Bezerkers, who also happen to be fearless.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Good point after you take into account the cost of landraider the unit will cost 600+ pts. Hence making trying to make back the units cost a huge priority.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> I have to disagree with you about the Icon of Slaanesh.
> 
> Its cheap as chips, and makes you strike before MEQ.
> Id say its a bargain.
> ...


Guys let's discuss WHY the icon of slaanesh is cheap:
First, if we run it in a squad, it's obviously going to be a land raider or walker size, correct? Termicide is a waste. So we have either a land-raider bound squad or a walker squad both costing a very large amount of points, so what exactly are these 5-10 badasses going to be doing? What are the made the kill?
The most obvious target is power-armoured foes, since swinging nine lightning claws and one fist at a single tank isn't exactly cost-effective.
So we jump out of the land raider, or somehow make it on foot, and we get the charge and murder every last one of the 220 point squad, yeah, we got them good. But now we get shot to pieces, disaster!

With only t4 and a 5++ save we get killed very easily by weight of fire, vindicator shells, or plasma/melta. So we just get mowed down.

But Lord, you say with eyes sparkling with slaaneshi dreams, there is cover everywhere to hide within! We will simply lurk in that thus gaining a 4+ cover save!

Ah such tender youth, you forget that _WE HAVE NO GRENADES_ if our slaaneshi friends TOUCH a piece of terrain you just WASTED an icon. Because we'd strike LAST in combat.

Likewise for the land raider, any smart person will keep a model or two behind cover, if we strike last we'll still kill that tac squad, but if it's a competitive(READ: Wolves) squad they'll take down four or so of us before we swing, nearly paying for the cost. And our land raider doesn't have frag launchers, so we're fucked!

The only viable icons are nurgle and tzeentch, it depends on the local metagame, nurgle makes you nearly immune to bolter and las chatter, and makes you harder to weight of fire, but with the nids carrying poison everywhere it makes that t5 not as grand. But the MoT is fantastic! With a 4++ we can go toe-to-toe with the things terminators are MEANT to be chopping to bits, and with that 4++ we can stand around in broad daylight and act like we deserve a cover save. It makes the wave so much more fearsome.

Add to the fact that other terminators from other armies have rules like "Furious charge" AND "Preffered Enemy" on the same unit we just can't match that. Not to mention banshees, tyranids(oops lash whip you go last kthxbai) just cleave right through them. Their's just not enough i4 in the game to matter and without grenades it is fucking terrible.



Dakingofchaos said:


> too right, if it's one thing that's killed my terminators, it's lasguns, but that extra toughness actually halfs the chance of getting wounded by one (from a 5+ to a 6+), this means only half of my termies die! :biggrin:


This is true but most people will just fire plasma guns at the squad, effectively nuetering the t5 and still killing them as fast, or using vindicator shells or the like.



Ghost792 said:


> IOCG is pointless here because Abbadon makes the terminators fearless and there is no way that Abbadon should be dying before them. With the blissgiver and its use against MCs I think its worth it. You may need 5s or 6s to wound an MC, but you only need one. If you roll a 3 or better for the DW, in my experience at least, you should have enough attacks to get that 6. If the MC is an EW then I dont see why you would be attacking it in CC instead of shooting it to death.


Herpderp terminators make Abbadabbadoobadon fearFUL.





5tonsledge said:


> MoS on chaos terminators rocks. Striking before loyalist terminators can save your squad and deal some serious damage to the enemy. Now running a PF in a Chaos Terminator squad is dumb. The squad all come with a PW and twinlink bolter for 30 points which is really cheap. the only reason to take a PF is to hit vehicles, and then you should change it to a chainfist. I take terminators on foot as cover for vehicles you take a 10 man squad with autocannons and 1 chainfist with MoS They truge on foot and i lash stuff into them. I currently dont take terminators because i run a Chosen heavy list. But if you want to use this squad as a great assualt squad run them as champions with pair lightning claws with MoS. take abbadon and run them up the board in a landraider with a daemon prince and lash stuff into the squad.


See above statements of this strategy not working outside the bubble. Also chainfist are pro, and the squad should have a decent number of them.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Edit: Damnit! started this on my lunch break & couldn't finish it for a couple of hours & now look at all the fantastic defence of slaanesh that has popped up...



D-A-C said:


> Regarding Slaanesh icon, it really isn't very good


Have to disagree. In my humble opinion the IoS is almost guaranteed to be the best Icon you can take on Terminators. I'll explain why after:



D-A-C said:


> yay you strike before loyalists, 1. you paid 220-240pts to get there 2. if they are in cover you aren't striking before them


In & of itself the cost is moot - Slaanesh is the cheapest cult icon (see debates about the effectiveness of IoCG elsewhere, but suffice to say that your squad is going to be small. If you've lost combat you're probably looking at only having a couple of terminators left anyways...)

I'm a firm believer that a termicide squad shouldn't have a mark. Slaanesh certainly would be the wrong one for it since they are primarily meant for deepstriking & shooting. Not assaulting. The retinue though is where Slaanesh shines. Footslogging with a sorceror? Well, that SLAANESHI sorceror has access to the best spell in the chaos book - Lash. So you shouldn't be assaulting into cover - the unit has been pulled towards you through the cover. And if you're in a Land Raider? well, you can probably sit a turn & wait for them to come towards you with melta, OR just pick another target (or drive around/over/through the cover & assault from the rear...)



D-A-C said:


> 3. If i'm not mistaken a SS is 3++ meaning yes you hit before them, but you probably didn't kill very many


well, a TH/SS terminator would strike at I1 anyways so the icon again is moot in the comparison. But what you will see a lot of is a combined squad with TLC & TH/SS terminators since the loyalists are trying to maximise the number of attacks they can put out at initiative while still having the survivability of the SS. Being I5 here will really help you by potentially forcing wounds onto those LC before they get to attack and ensuring you have fewer 5++ saves to make. But really, fundamentals of 40K should let you know that if you have a similar loyalist & xenos / traitor unit the loyalist unit will come out on top 9/10 times.... you shouldn't be bee-lining your terminators towards his TH/SS termies... shoot them from afar my friend... Being I5 will allow you to CRUSH veterans, tacticals, assault marines, grey hunters and even 'zerkers if they didn't charge.



D-A-C said:


> 4. If you took a Terminator with a Fist or Chainsfist (as you should) you wasted the initiative


Fair enough - one model strikes at I1. My 6-man noise marine squads all have PF champs even though they are I5... 



D-A-C said:


> 5. You don't have IOCG to allow you to reroll your LD, IOK to help get some extra wounds, IOT / ION for extra defence, congrats you lost the combat and wasted 400+ points.


others have said it better than I could above.



D-A-C said:


> 6. You can't sweeping advance. Finally even if you are successful what you kill will be alot less than the pts you invested killing it in the first place.


You always use your BASE stats for sweeping advance anyways. Chaos marines marked with IoS are still considered I4 for the purposes of sweeping advance & falling back. This point is moot.

Frankly your second sentence doesn't swing your argument either. With IoS being the cheapest cult mark if you're really worried about point efficiency it IS a better bet than IoK/etc...


It is my opinion that while using terminators they are best used not as an anvil, but as a hammer either counter-assaulting to bail out a unit (or catch someone after they've wiped out another...) or assaulting a unit in the open. 
This means that they are usually nearby but rarely are they your front line. 

The ability for anything to hide behind its peers in 40K is a unique phenomenon in my opinion (frankly if I was joe-guardsman standing against the hordes of chaos as they poured across the battlefield towards me I don't give a damn if I kill the warrior in the front rank, or the guy 2-steps behind him... as long as I kill someone...) 4+ coversaves are available almost everywhere nowadays rendering the IoT expensive & moot. I find the only times I ever get caught standing in the open is when (a) my transport gets blown up - but wait! didn't you bring your craters? if you didn't you're a fool, you're just throwing away that coversave; (b) a failed charge. This doesn't usually happen - I know that generally shooting into a unit before I charge it is a BAD idea since the canny player will just remove casualties ensuring I'm out of charge range (or worst case he'll take & fail a leadership check...). The only other time I find myself out in the open is when there is a scarcity of terrain on the field, and if that's the case you need to MAKE a coversave by utilizing your relatively cheaper power-armored marines & vehicles to keep your heavy-hitters safe.

IoN is there to keep your expensive terminators safer from small arms fire. Everyone whose ever fielded terminators will tell you that they lose more on average to combined small arms fire (first rank fire -second rank fire FTW!) so this one can really pay off. That being said however, a canny player will still just hit you with plasma or a demolisher shell - both still wounding on 2's and denying your AV. So yeah, Nurgle CAN be worth it to keep you safe from the hordes of angry flashlights, it's just too damned expensive considering most lists will be able to throw a lot of high strength at you anyways. I'd say this could however be useful if you find yourself facing a lot of ork hordes or tyranid swarms, but in my experience you're going to see more guard & marine lists on average.

IoK - now this one is certainly the one to take if you do see yourself facing a lot of hordes! One thing you have to consider when facing GeQ's or MeQ's is that you actually want the combats YOU initiate to go for (2) rounds. Why? Well you charge, annihilate your enemy and now what? you're left smiling in the face of all his guns. Therefore you actually want to have that single model left heroically standing against your squad. If you take IoK on powerweapon wielding troops you'll find that with an average round of rolling you're going to wipe the floor with your average 10-man guard / marine squad, only to get shot to hell the next turn. There is a fine line between over-kill and the right amount of killiness - IoK tends to push you towards overkill. A 5-man TLC, IoK termi-squad with no champions can reasonably expect to kill 8-10 MeQ's on the charge. That's gonna leave you getting shot to hell. Now, if you mostly play against hordes of orks / nids this ceases to be a problem as you really want to put those extra few wounds on - you're not going to pull through a 30-man boy squad on the charge even with IoK.

That leaves you with Slaansh or Glory (or nothing really...) Slaanesh of course gives you I5, and why you say would that be a good thing? Well - if you take stock of the codeci available for 40K you'll notice that at least 1/3 of them wear power armor & strike at I4, so while it is true that against guard/orks/necrons your I5 will be wasted and against eldar/stealers it isn't going to be a big benefit it's still keeping you where you want to be for killing marines and frankly that's what terminators are for.

When facing off against eldar, striking simul rather than after means you may get that extra model or two to attack. I'd rather have 5 terminators with 3 attacks than 3 terminators with 4 (of course I'd rather have 4 with 4 but hey... that doesn't serve to illustrate my point now does it? :blush: )
When charged by 'zerkers/gaunts wouldn't you rather go simul than after? I know I would.
When facing a (chaos) space marine character you're going simultaneous.
When taking I checks (JotWW) I'd rather have a 1/6 chance to fail than a 1/3

Final reason to run with IoS:

Pink terminators charging out of a pink land raider is awesome.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Well, an easy way to settle the argument over the IoS is to simply state that Terminator squads in Land Raiders dont belong in a competitive army in the first place.

The most competitive way to run Terminators is as a 3-man Termicide squad, with either 3x Combi-Melta or 3x Combi-Plasma... no Icons.

So... if running 5 Terminators in a Land Raider isnt competitive, then why are we arguing so much about which mark is the best?
You obviously havent taken them to WAAC, all 5 of the Icons are an advantage, not a HUGE difference in price of the squad, so just pick one and have fun with it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Initiative tests are taken from the base value, so mos makes no difference. i run 10 chaos terminators with iok, 3 chainfists, 3 powerfists, 4 combi weapons and both a reaper autocannon and a heavy flamer (i usually play 2500pts) and you know what they are? Awesome. Deep strike beside a vehicle with an icon inside, put all the ranged stuff on one side, but make sure it is only 4 models, that way i still get my cover saves, then open up on whatever will shoot me. death star. 
the solution to the mess the iok leaves behind is to consolidate into cover.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Well, an easy way to settle the argument over the IoS is to simply state that Terminator squads in Land Raiders dont belong in a competitive army in the first place.
> 
> The most competitive way to run Terminators is as a 3-man Termicide squad, with either 3x Combi-Melta or 3x Combi-Plasma... no Icons.
> 
> ...


Agreed. In my apparently "unlikely" situation, you'd obviously be running a list with many assault units. Probably CSM in rhinos with MoS or MoK, Daemon Princes, Beserkers, or other types of assault units. By the time the terminators are done whipping out a unit the rest of your army would be in close combat. Having your terminators free to assault units next turn is indeed a great advantage. And having the capability to cause the same destruction again is also awesome.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> I have to strongly disagree with you ckcrawford, the problem with your imaginary scenario is you are forgetting the fact that in all likely hood you purchased a Land Raider to get you Terminators in that position, plus, ok so they took out a space marine unit, so can lots of other things in our codex, heck, noise marines, and even regular CSM with IOS would probably be just as good at doing what the Terminators did. Plus by not having a Fist, one dreadnought or MC charges you and your probably done for.


False. Show me the math. Lets say we put the best option fully upgraded.

Bezerkers: 9 normal zerkers, 1 champion with fist. 36-24 for hits, 24-16 for wounding, Thats five to six wounds with failed armor saves. Now with a power Fist I would give the benefit of doubt that the unit survives. Thats two more wounds. Now thats 8 total. Same as the terminators. 

Then I'm also giving the benefit of the doubt they charged and got that furious charge, as to where Terminators of the mark of slaanesh would just be missing a few attacks. 

The margin of error is greater for the Bezerkers fully upgraded as you have these factors to worry about.
1 Greater amount of attacks
2 Almost all wounds still give armor saves 
3 charge bonus is essential

As to a scenario where they are charged into instead. 

Terminators: 20-10 for hits, 10-8 for wounds that are attomatic,
as they are initiative five they don't have to worry about casualties because the unit charged but got whipped out before performing any casualty ratings.

Bezerkers: 27-18 for hits, 18-9 for wounds that require armor saves, causing 3 wounds with failed armor saves. I'll add two powerfist wounds and get 5 wounds. 

Their is a huge difference as demonstrated above. And thats with probably the best strategical close combat unit for "chaos." So what a squad of terminators with the MoS is quite considerably something that very few units can actually do in the entire game.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

clever handle said:


> I'm a firm believer that a termicide squad shouldn't have a mark. Slaanesh certainly would be the wrong one for it since they are primarily meant for deepstriking & shooting. Not assaulting. The retinue though is where Slaanesh shines. Footslogging with a sorceror? Well, that SLAANESHI sorceror has access to the best spell in the chaos book - Lash. So you shouldn't be assaulting into cover - the unit has been pulled towards you through the cover. And if you're in a Land Raider? well, you can probably sit a turn & wait for them to come towards you with melta, OR just pick another target (or drive around/over/through the cover & assault from the rear...)


Where to even begin. Why bother with increased I when you dont have the tenacity to kill elite options. The big trick is i5 that doesn't work through cover, on hive tyrants, against guns, or makes you hit any stronger in melee. It is the worst possible icon for a few short reasons:
Only works on marines
Marines don't give a fuck about i5, they will stomp you with th/ss or hit you with furious charge wolf claws.

The only thing slaaneshi termies are successfully and predictably good at was fighting other 5+ terminators and striking first, so if your opponent brings khornate ones that never leave cover? Super.

Also we were debating the effectiveness of just the squad, if you start drawing in attached ics you've ruined the purpose of discussion, for instance if I just bring a chaos lord of slaanesh you get dicked before you swing.




clever handle said:


> well, a TH/SS terminator would strike at I1 anyways so the icon again is moot in the comparison. But what you will see a lot of is a combined squad with TLC & TH/SS terminators since the loyalists are trying to maximise the number of attacks they can put out at initiative while still having the survivability of the SS. Being I5 here will really help you by potentially forcing wounds onto those LC before they get to attack and ensuring you have fewer 5++ saves to make. But really, fundamentals of 40K should let you know that if you have a similar loyalist & xenos / traitor unit the loyalist unit will come out on top 9/10 times.... you shouldn't be bee-lining your terminators towards his TH/SS termies... shoot them from afar my friend... Being I5 will allow you to CRUSH veterans, tacticals, assault marines, grey hunters and even 'zerkers if they didn't charge.


So you sank 450 points into these guys. These guys with t4 and no good invul save? I highly doubt anyone of any quality will let you make in across the board. In a vacuum you get dusted by two squads of wolves with rhinos, which are very near equivalent points(double melta gun means no land raider, then surround the wreckage. Chaos deploys and MUST charge through difficult terrain, gg with wolf banner.





clever handle said:


> Fair enough - one model strikes at I1. My 6-man noise marine squads all have PF champs even though they are I5...


I really should have just let this one stand. Fanboyism is not something that belongs in a tactica discussion.




clever handle said:


> You always use your BASE stats for sweeping advance anyways. Chaos marines marked with IoS are still considered I4 for the purposes of sweeping advance & falling back. This point is moot.


They can't sweep. Also wow I thought they at least could run. Sad day.



clever handle said:


> Frankly your second sentence doesn't swing your argument either. With IoS being the cheapest cult mark if you're really worried about point efficiency it IS a better bet than IoK/etc...


It's cheap because it's BAD. It's not point efficient to bring bad things in, that's wasting points.




clever handle said:


> It is my opinion that while using terminators they are best used not as an anvil, but as a hammer either counter-assaulting to bail out a unit (or catch someone after they've wiped out another...) or assaulting a unit in the open.
> This means that they are usually nearby but rarely are they your front line.


That's a third of your army sitting in av14 for awhile. Honestly I'd put my hopes in two squads of plagues for the same point, or three squads of weaponful chosen in outflank rhinos. But that's not the topic we're discussing.



clever handle said:


> The ability for anything to hide behind its peers in 40K is a unique phenomenon in my opinion (frankly if I was joe-guardsman standing against the hordes of chaos as they poured across the battlefield towards me I don't give a damn if I kill the warrior in the front rank, or the guy 2-steps behind him... as long as I kill someone...) 4+ coversaves are available almost everywhere nowadays rendering the IoT expensive & moot.


The only place you should find terminators is either out of combat in the open(A situation you JUST DESCRIBED EARLIER) or in combat, in either circumstance, I'd take the tzeentch icon even if it costed twice again what it does now.




clever handle said:


> I find the only times I ever get caught standing in the open is when (a) my transport gets blown up - but wait! didn't you bring your craters? if you didn't you're a fool, you're just throwing away that coversave; (b) a failed charge.


You just described charging a unit when they're out in the open, I assuming if you're using the words charging, that your ride didn't implode yet. Also stranding them in cover does provide a 4+ cover, but if your wreckage gets surrounded you MUST assault through it, put on top of that, if you blow open a rhino to get at the juicy meat inside they can deploy inside the same damn crater forcing you to jump through and die horribly.



clever handle said:


> IoN...a canny player will still just hit you with plasma or a demolisher shell - both still wounding on 2's and denying your t5.


Real fast. Hypothetical here. What stops the IoS termies from succumbing to small arms fire in the same vein of argument? Nurgle marines have the advantage of being damn near impervious to lasfire, and bolters are rough. Plus cover saves as mentioned earlier make them the best of both worlds(Tzeentch/Nurgle) as far as shooting goes. This is the only other semi-competitive icon in my eyes.



clever handle said:


> IoK - now this one is certainly the one to take if you do see yourself facing a lot of hordes! One thing you have to consider when facing GeQ's or MeQ's is that you actually want the combats YOU initiate to go for (2) rounds. Why? Well you charge, annihilate your enemy and now what? you're left smiling in the face of all his guns. Therefore you actually want to have that single model left heroically standing against your squad. If you take IoK on powerweapon wielding troops you'll find that with an average round of rolling you're going to wipe the floor with your average 10-man guard / marine squad, only to get shot to hell the next turn. There is a fine line between over-kill and the right amount of killiness - IoK tends to push you towards overkill. A 5-man TLC, IoK termi-squad with no champions can reasonably expect to kill 8-10 MeQ's on the charge. That's gonna leave you getting shot to hell. Now, if you mostly play against hordes of orks / nids this ceases to be a problem as you really want to put those extra few wounds on - you're not going to pull through a 30-man boy squad on the charge even with IoK.


Afterthough:
IoK can't kill thirty boyz, IoS kills LESS boyz. D:



clever handle said:


> That leaves you with Slaansh or Glory (or nothing really...) Slaanesh of course gives you I5, and why you say would that be a good thing? Well - if you take stock of the codeci available for 40K you'll notice that at least 1/3 of them wear power armor & strike at I4, so while it is true that against guard/orks/necrons your I5 will be wasted and against eldar/stealers it isn't going to be a big benefit it's still keeping you where you want to be for killing marines and frankly that's what terminators are for.


Anything with cars will force you to assault through cover by the nature of not dumbitis. Also they strike at I4, but many now have furious charge AND preffered enemy. So they don't care about improved I. And even if all of your opinions held true, 2/3 of the time you wasted an icon and squad and land raider.



clever handle said:


> When facing off against eldar, striking simul rather than after means you may get that extra model or two to attack. I'd rather have 5 terminators with 3 attacks than 3 terminators with 4 (of course I'd rather have 4 with 4 but hey... that doesn't serve to illustrate my point now does it? :blush: )


Banshees. Also 4++ or T5 makes you survive more lulz.



clever handle said:


> When charged by 'zerkers/gaunts wouldn't you rather go simul than after? I know I would.
> When facing a (chaos) space marine character you're going simultaneous.
> When taking I checks (JotWW) I'd rather have a 1/6 chance to fail than a 1/3


Conversely if you're charged by gaunts you did something wrong, and since gaunts don't carry grenades and we live in a world of coverhammer, all the other icons do just as well(khorne even better!). As for zerkers, you'd be trading a squad for a squad. Only the zerks cost less. Compared to nurgle where you lose a sixth less, or tzeentch that...only really matters when the fist comes a'calling.

Also JotWW isn't as pro as living lightning. But yes in that one single circumstance IoS is better.



clever handle said:


> Final reason to run with IoS:
> 
> Gay gay gay butts gay gay cowboy butts


I am appalled and offended! :biggrin:


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> I have to strongly disagree with you ckcrawford, the problem with your imaginary scenario is you are forgetting the fact that in all likely hood you purchased a Land Raider to get you Terminators in that position, plus, ok so they took out a space marine unit, so can lots of other things in our codex, heck, noise marines, and even regular CSM with IOS would probably be just as good at doing what the Terminators did. Plus by not having a Fist, one dreadnought or MC charges you and your probably done for.


the thing about terminators is you have to be willing to spend the points. Terminators are expensive and often time will lose or win a game for you. If you are going to take terminators and deck them out with MoS lightning claws and champions you might aswell take the landraider becasue they will get shot to shit without one. Also I suggest taking abbadon because he is S8 so you dont need a powerfist. Also you would have to be a fucking retard to get assualted by a dreadnought without a weapon to kill it. all in all i dont take terminators since i started playing competetive. Chosen seem to get the job done and i they just absolutely rip terminators open with my plasmaguns. Powerfist are the number one reason why Loyalist regular terminators dont scare me. As long as my terminators go first i will often time whipe the squad before they can attack back.


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## PhantomPhoenix (Oct 4, 2009)

LordWaffles, all of your arguments against the IoS are the exact same arguments against Chaos Terminators in general. The only way to make them effective is either Termicide 3 for 105 or spend ungodly points for a unit that still isn't as good as what it's built to fight. I know it sucks, I really like Chaos Termis and wish they weren't as bad. What we have to focus on is what our terminators can do that no one else's can, which is provide accurate, reliable spot removal. At 105 for 3 termis and 3 combis (melta is the way to go imo) w/ a 50% chance to drop on turn 2 and with cheap personal icons they're extremely accurate and dirt cheap to boot. Currently the only thing they have to worry about are Mystics, and they'll be gone when the new GK book drops. Just drop 'em in pop a big vehicle, and they've already made their points back and, worst case scenario, are a KP trade. Nothing ruins the TH/SS Termis day more than popping their ride top of 2 then eating fire while slogging toward you as slow as ever. No other army can do it as cheaply or as reliably as we can, even the angels DoA RAS w/ just Melta/Infernus is 115 and they've only got 2 shots and one needs to be within 3" to do well.

That said, if you still want to run them Chaos Glory is far and away the best option. Very little sucks more than having your expensive unit of kitted terminators get overrun because of 1 turn of bad rolls, this is doubly as important if they're escorting an IC because losing Abbadon because his groupies are pansies is a swift kick in the gonads.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

PhantomPhoenix said:


> LordWaffles, all of your arguments against the IoS are the exact same arguments against Chaos Terminators in general. The only way to make them effective is either Termicide 3 for 105 or spend ungodly points for a unit that still isn't as good as what it's built to fight.


This is the kind of quote that I wished these discussions could avoid but at the end of the day there it is. Termicide or nothing at all.

That being said I made mention about making them a 2+/4++ or t5, I think those work okay.




PhantomPhoenix said:


> That said, if you still want to run them Chaos Glory is far and away the best option. Very little sucks more than having your expensive unit of kitted terminators get overrun because of 1 turn of bad rolls, this is doubly as important if they're escorting an IC because losing Abbadon because his groupies are pansies is a swift kick in the gonads.


I'd argue that their's no point in taking them if they just get shot to pieces or have no effect when they get there.
But for termicide, IoCG rocks face! They stay to the last.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I actually think all this discussion is really helping, I think that what we have established so far is that, competitively the IOS is not good and that any kind of Land Raider Terminator build is inefficent points wise and actually pretty crappy in general. This means we can narrow using Terminators to two builds, Termicide and Footslogging. The former (Termicide) is fine and warrants discussion of how exactly to equip your 3 Terminators and generally how to tactically use them. The latter (footslogging) I feel needs to be justified (by me and others!) in order to figure out if its viable, therefore I am going to discuss the matter with the Dark Council (My friends, including imaginary ones!!!  ) and also examine the texts of Lorgar (The codex....shudder....Lorgar was not having a good day when he wrote it) and see if I can argue the case for footslogging Terminators


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

For any marine army footslogging is not an option even if it is with armour 2 and T5 or 4+ armour save, especially for what a chaos terminator unit brings to the table in view of ranged support and points efficientcy.

With regards to termicide which is sadly the best and most effeicent option at points levels below 2000 if it is going to be melta combis then stick to a unit of 3 with no upgrades as it's a cheap throw away unit. If you are going with plasma I would recomend going 4 strong, ( or maybe even 5), with a fist of some description just in case there is a possibiliy of engaging something after they have discharged their plasma. You really need 8 plasma shots as opposed to 6 to guarantee as near enough to nailing a big target like a monstrous creature or putting about 5 armoured targets down for good.


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## PhantomPhoenix (Oct 4, 2009)

I tried really hard not to say termicide or go home, and if what I wrote seemed to say that I apologize as that was not my intent. What I was trying to say was love our terminators for what they are not what they are compared to. If you directly compare our terminators in combat to Loyalist Assault Terminators in combat, ours suck. To get them to a similar level of effectiveness we have to spend almost twice as much for something not as good that rides in an even worse variant of a loyalist transport. Our Terminators are, however, better than Loyalist Tactical Terminators. Cheaper base (same once you buy fist) and access to combi-weapons make then much more flexible and a bigger threat to your average unit walking around, but in all honesty Tac Termis are pretty terrible right now too.

The other point I wanted to get across was, that Chaos Terminators CAN termicide, don't scoff at it because it makes it into tournament lists. It does so because it is truly effective and something uniquely Chaos. I know a few armies that would kill for something like that. 

The big problem with the footslogging build is the same as with anything else, you will get shot to hell and it wil most likely be by weapons that you don't get that precious 2+ save against (IG Vet Squads, BA Honourguard, Eldar Fire Dragons, Etc). Add that to the fact that the only decent slogging weapon they've got, the Reaper, is horribly overcosted, I don't see a recipe for success on the slogging front.

In all honesty though, I really hope someone finds some as yet undiscovered gem in the Chaos Terminator entry because, like I said in the last post, I really do like them.


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## Silverclaw (Mar 11, 2010)

While probably not the most competitive build, I have had some success with a small unit (most often just 3) with just a reaper...
I admit that my opponents are mostly casual gamers so I do not know if it will work for more competitive games.

Primarily advantages are:
small unit (so don't need much cover to get a save)
Decent fire-power and range (reaper)
Pretty tough (especially if in cover)
And off course the ability to move and shoot

What are your opinions on this build?


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## angelXD19 (Feb 11, 2010)

really nice tactica. I will always DS my termies. make them 4, 2 combi-meltas, 1 heavy flamer, 1 chainfist. that way they deal with everything that needs to be taken care of. i'm glad to also see you not putting down the termie lord. I love that beast


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

angelXD19 said:


> i'm glad to also see you not putting down the termie lord. I love that beast


KA-FISTED WITH A 5++ TO SAVE. FUUUUUUUUCK.


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