# Are all dreadnoughts "mentally" wounded?



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Sup Heretics.

I've recently begun liking dreadnought fluff and toying with the idea of a fluff project based around the life of a dreadnought.

One of the thing's I've noticed however is that when Marines become dreadnoughts they seem to lose alot of the memories of life and become kinda...well brain-damaged from the whole experience.

Is there any example of a dreadnought who hasn't lost part of his mind or identity that people could point me too for inspiration, or is the transition to dreadnought really so traumatic that its the end of the "person" who goes inside?

I'm thinking alot about Davian Thule (dawn of war), Tankred (damnation crusade) and that chaos dreadnought from the Ultramarines omnibus (name escapes me but im sure there's one!) - they all seem to lose alot of their mind / memories when they get encased.

Anyway any help as usual would be great


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Bjorn maybe?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The dreadnought in the Crusade for Armageddon book and its sequel was very lucid and self aware. So too was Malcharion from Soul Hunter. 

I imagine a dreadnoughts lucidity is determined by how they died, whether they wanted to become a dreadnought, and how long they have been interred. Its often said how the longer the marine is in a dreadnought the more he loses his grip on reality and the longer the techmarines let them sleep. 

A very new dreadnought would be very lucid i imagine. They would however still be adjusting to their new life and no doubt have flashbacks of their old life and their 'death'. Many dreadnoughts seem to feel a great sense of loss and become detached and mealchonic.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

It can be a bit traumatic to loose parts of your body, you know. Its like when people have gotten a replacement body part from another human (possibly dead human), and the body part will have brought with it memories and reflexes of its former body. Just that reversed. What the fuck am I trying to explain.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Doelago said:


> What the fuck am I trying to explain.


Being a zombie in a giant metal killy-thing is cool, but it also sucks because your memory has, very likely, gone to shit. 

In line with what Rems said, I'd think a dreadnaught's lucidity is influenced by the manner of his death and the amount of time he's been interred in the tomb-machine. In cases like Davian Thule, who had suffered massive damage at the hands of the Tyrant and who had been in a coma, being eaten away from inside by the Tyranid poison, for a period of several solar days, the state of his dreadnaught is not surprising. We can imagine he "lost" himself while in that coma, and placing him in the dreadnaught was a last-ditch effort to preserve him.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

In my opinion, it's the extended lifespan and how it is achieved that causes the issues. Firstly, the pilot doesn't get to stay 'awake' like he used to, rather, he is pulled in and out of stasis. From what was written in _Prospero Burns_, when the main character was in his own stasis-sleep, disembodied minds seem to be hanging around and talking to each other. They seem to be stuck in a sort of dreamworld and if they are spending lots of time in this state over the course of an extended life, then it probably becomes more and more difficult to distinguish between life and dreams; as they are only going to be awakened to go to war, it's not like they get to really ground themselves in the camaraderie of the battle brothers. How much of their dreaming must be about war, conflicts that they have fought in, battles they only dream they were in, and battles recounted by other stasis-bound pilots? After this, how would it be possible to know what is dream and what is real, until the searing pain of wounds cuts through the haze? 
Being wounded in this way might also cause mental problems, as dreams suddenly have to be mistrusted as they might suddenly turn very real. At this point it would not be surprising should their anger be massively over-the-top, as paranoia, long stoked hate and desire for revenge boil over.
Another issue might be the Mind-Impulse Unit that the pilots use to commune with the machinery. In _Titanicus_, the story suggests that long-term use of MIUs can cause a progressive dementia, the strain of operating a body not their own and continually fighting the machine spirit for supremacy, becoming too much.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not all. There are two Dreadnoughts in _Fall of Damnos_ that represent either side perfectly. 

One is trapped in the past, endlessly reliving the battle that killed him as he fights a completely different battle millennia later, while the other remains coherent, going on to lead the campaign to n extent after...



...Sicarius gets almost cut in half by a necron lord. :biggrin:


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Don't they have wires and other "computery" things put in their brains so they can operate their new body? Maybe memory loss is a side effect.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that Malcharion is the best example of a sane Dreadnought (At least, he remembers names, Chapter organisation, even the name of the ship's dead Astropath). However, 

When he fights Raguel at the end, all the members of First Claw agree that they saw the original fight between the two when they were Astartes on Terra.
 I guess the Dreadnoughts saw the same thing.

Midnight


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Dreads lucidness fall into 3 types. 1) Sane and in the moment. 2) Sane but slips into the past life every now and then. 3) Insane and never in the present. Dreads ranging from just interred to been around since the HH fall into all 3 categories regardless of age. Example, Warmonger from the WBs been around since HH yet he falls into #2. Bjorn the Fell Handed been around since HH days too and he falls into #1. Then we have Captain Davian Thull of the Blood Ravens who from day one being interred falls into #2. So on and so forth. All depends on the Dread.


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## GreatUncleanOne (Apr 25, 2011)

I think the dread in HH 3 was a good example. cant remember which legion it was a member of. it tried to tell a caption to enter the bunkers before the virus bombing. He tried to lie and say his body would protect him but really he had a gash which let it in and mulched him inside


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Most chaos dreadnaughts, atleast the newer ones, are a form of punishment if you anger the Chaos lord and they have a spare dreadnaught they shove you in a cockpit and then inside a dreadnaught when they feel like it. (CSM dex)


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Doelago said:


> It can be a bit traumatic to loose parts of your body, you know. Its like when people have gotten a replacement body part from another human (possibly dead human), and the body part will have brought with it memories and reflexes of its former body. Just that reversed. What the fuck am I trying to explain.


Not sure why, but I thought this was funny stuff. True, and I think I got what you were getting at, but the last line cracked me up 

+rep


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

GreatUncleanOne said:


> I think the dread in HH 3 was a good example. cant remember which legion it was a member of. it tried to tell a caption to enter the bunkers before the virus bombing. He tried to lie and say his body would protect him but really he had a gash which let it in and mulched him inside


I believe that was a Death Guard dread. 

There was also that Emperors Children dread who sustained no damage during the fight and lived through the virus bombing. The one that went into the catacombs beneath the Palace in the same book. It explains it a bit more in Fulgrim, but that one was sane as well.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

DeathJester921 said:


> I believe that was a Death Guard dread.
> 
> There was also that Emperors Children dread who sustained no damage during the fight and lived through the virus bombing. The one that went into the catacombs beneath the Palace in the same book. It explains it a bit more in Fulgrim, but that one was sane as well.


Does ANYONE know what happen to that Dread? In Galaxy in Flames its explain he left and retreated into the Catacombs and same was said in Fulgrim tho in either case nothing more was really mention of this wise Dread.


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## MrFiddlewitt (Jul 19, 2011)

I think a good example would be the chapter master of the blood swords in the book Red Fury... If he was able to hold the rank of chapter master as a dread then he definetly was completely sane and level headed.


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## the_man_with_plan (May 3, 2011)

I thought that dreads were permanently removed from the chain of command as a measure to prevent everyone from being ruled by out-dated and/or crazy ancient mecha zombies


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

the_man_with_plan said:


> I thought that dreads were permanently removed from the chain of command as a measure to prevent everyone from being ruled by out-dated and/or crazy ancient mecha zombies


Like the lucidity of dreadnoughts, the role and place of dreadnoughts differs from chapter to chapter.

The Iron Hands, for example, are led by dreadnoughts because they are one of the closest ways to 'perfection' for them.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Ninja. I was about to point out the iron hands differing arrangements with regard dreads. For them there is no negative to becomming a dread. They aspire to it.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Humans have evolved to have a finite lifespan, and our mind is based upon this term. No matter how the Astartes have been enhanced, their brain is still based on this; at some point, an extended lifespan is going to hit the borders of what the mind can cope with. 
We've seen, specially in the HH series, that neuro-enhancement can be done, but it doesn't seem to be done to the Astartes. This might be a reason the older Dreads start going funny, their brain just can't cope with the continuing input of information over such a long time. The effects of, effectively, running out of Harddrive? Well, the 'read function' starts to act up, getting stuck or reading randomly. New info might not get added at all, or might be added in fragments, or even push old info out. This will, doubtlessly, affect the emotional stability of the pilot who will find their own mind becoming less sure and not being able to trust what they think they know. At that point, at possibly thousands of years old, will it not be easier, and fitting with the Astartes' nature, to just fall-back on killing and destruction?
Operative word for this post is _might_!

GFP


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Sorry to veer slightly off topic, but I was wondering if there are any references to librarian dreadnaughts?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Sorry to veer slightly off topic, but I was wondering if there are any references to librarian dreadnaughts?


The BAs have the Furioso(sp) Dreadnaught which is a librarian and every GK naught is a psyker.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

locustgate said:


> The BAs have the Furioso(sp) Dreadnaught which is a librarian and every GK naught is a psyker.


Yeah, the GKs are an obvious one, but I was wondering if a regular librarian would still be able to actively use his abilities after being put into a dreadnaught. 

I'd imagine using something like the lightning abilities that many librarians seem to be so fond of would deep fry some of the internal wiring inside a dreadnaught. 

Or for that matter, would they be coherent enough and have enough focus to even call on their abilities, seeing as this thread is about how dreads seem to go batty after a while.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's a dreadnought in _Battle for the Fang_ who had forgotten a great deal, in fact I think it was the first time he was awoken and had to rely on a human to get him up to speed, including reawakening a bit of personality.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Humans have evolved to have a finite lifespan, and our mind is based upon this term. No matter how the Astartes have been enhanced, their brain is still based on this; at some point, an extended lifespan is going to hit the borders of what the mind can cope with.
> We've seen, specially in the HH series, that neuro-enhancement can be done, but it doesn't seem to be done to the Astartes. This might be a reason the older Dreads start going funny, their brain just can't cope with the continuing input of information over such a long time. The effects of, effectively, running out of Harddrive? Well, the 'read function' starts to act up, getting stuck or reading randomly. New info might not get added at all, or might be added in fragments, or even push old info out. This will, doubtlessly, affect the emotional stability of the pilot who will find their own mind becoming less sure and not being able to trust what they think they know. At that point, at possibly thousands of years old, will it not be easier, and fitting with the Astartes' nature, to just fall-back on killing and destruction?
> Operative word for this post is _might_!
> 
> GFP


Sorry to contradict you, but as someone with a grounding in neural science I thought it necessary to correct you. The limits of the human brain for storage and organizing data is not known, because current evidence shows that not aged brains will grow, and reprogram new dendrites and neurons as the need is required. The reason some memories seem to fade in younger individuals is because neurons become re-purposed for more common or important mental processes.

The true cause of permanent memory lapse and failure is the natural process of neural decay that happens as we reach advanced age, or with sever levels of neural inactivity/brain damage. As marines are more or less immune to natural aging these factors would not really affect them.

The most likely cause for the mental deficiency of marines is sever neural damage/brain damage most likely caused by what ever killed them. This would contribute to the sever PTSD that many dreadnoughts seem to suffer from. This situation would also not improve because the natural process of neural repair ect is retarded by the limited form of suspended animation the pilot is in.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Does ANYONE know what happen to that Dread? In Galaxy in Flames its explain he left and retreated into the Catacombs and same was said in Fulgrim tho in either case nothing more was really mention of this wise Dread.


Well, we can assume he lived through the Dies Irae's bombardment (or maybe it was the Warmaster who bombarded it? I cant remember) of the building, but after that, nothing else is mentioned of him. He's likely still alive down there. Or he may have gotten picked up by the Imperial Fists, as I recall Dorn saying something about sending a small fleet to scout out the Istvaan system. Perhaps they picked up the survivors?
Anyway, they're probably saving that tidbit for a later HH book.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> The true cause of permentant mammory lapse


Ummm....I think you mean memory


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Lol really got to spell check my more lengthy entries more thoroughly. Well thanks for showing me my oversight that would have been embarrassing if it stayed like that permanently.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm not an expert on the subject but wouldn't the way they were wounded have an effect on how they are?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, if they already have, I've missed it, but if you look at Thule in Retribution and Chaos Rising he's actually improved greatly, he is considerably more lucid and is capable of carrying on a conversation, although he...speaks...in...a...very...stilt...ed...mann..er... But yeah I'd actually say your average dreadnought improves as he gets used to being "entombed."


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I would correct you and say the Warmonger is in the 3rd cathegory since he thinks hes fighting on Terra still in the whole time, but he maybe changes in the other 2 books? The senile Dread in Fall of Damnos I would say the same about.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

He was Genious and very Sane when the WBs had to defeat the Necs without Daemon power to aid them. He switches to sane to insane.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

forkmaster said:


> I would correct you and say the Warmonger is in the 3rd cathegory since he thinks hes fighting on Terra still in the whole time, but he maybe changes in the other 2 books? The senile Dread in Fall of Damnos I would say the same about.


Hmm,I guess the simplest explanation, how they take being entombed is unique to each one. maybe Bjorn only survives from the Heresy because he was the only one who stayed sane and alive?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> He was Genious and very Sane when the WBs had to defeat the Necs without Daemon power to aid them. He switches to sane to insane.


I will have to re-read that book then soon. 



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Hmm,I guess the simplest explanation, how they take being entombed is unique to each one. maybe Bjorn only survives from the Heresy because he was the only one who stayed sane and alive?


It could be that.  As I understand it, he's one of the few longest surviving from the Heresy as his death has never been displayed or written into light anywhere.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

hmmmmmmmmm a EC dread just wandering a zombie infested world. Sounds like the next George A. Romero film to be.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

TheSpore said:


> hmmmmmmmmm a EC dread just wandering a zombie infested world. Sounds like the next George A. Romero film to be.


why? There'd be no tension, unless the zombies have grenade launchers they aint cracking the Dread's shell.


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## Arthurianmaxima (Jul 29, 2011)

In the book "fall of damnos" there are 3 dreadnaught one is killed pretty early and didn't have much description beyond "big, killy, stompy and giant target for gauss fire"

there is one i cant remember the name of who became a dreadnaught in the defence of chundrabad "doesn't know where or when he fights, but he knows he fights for the glory of ultramar" 

and then there is Agrippan who is perfectly lucid at all times and is a seemingly immortal badass killing the necron lord who just cut down cato sicarus by punching him (the necron lord that is) and stomping on him after.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Arthurianmaxima said:


> In the book "fall of damnos" there are 3 dreadnaught one is killed pretty early and didn't have much description beyond "big, killy, stompy and giant target for gauss fire"
> 
> there is one i cant remember the name of who became a dreadnaught in the defence of chundrabad "doesn't know where or when he fights, but he knows he fights for the glory of ultramar"
> 
> and then there is Agrippan who is perfectly lucid at all times and is a seemingly immortal badass killing the necron lord who just cut down cato sicarus by punching him (the necron lord that is) and stomping on him after.


Nice spoilers there ;-)


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I guess it really depends on the manner of how it died/got cyborg'ed. I think it's safe to assume the more traumatic the event/wound was, the more likely he is to get a severe case of _"I'm an Alzheimer's Patient with a Gattling Gun, Run While You Still Trust Me"_. 

It really goes both ways as you get a couple hopelessly confused ones in the games, and then you've got a couple like in the Word Bearers trilogy (I'm blanking out on the names) who was actually really aware of his surroundings.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Warmonger.... thats his name. Theres another Warsmith Dreadnought in Dead Sky Black Sun who also was very sane if not blood thirsty.Then another Dreadnought of the Violaters Chapter in Daemon World who also was very sane and the Captain of the Renegade Marines.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I suppose the amount of brain damage sustained during life as a marine would affect the lucidity of the dreadnought

are there any instances of marines being interred against their will?
I didn't think loyalist space marines would do that to their brothers


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't recall any loyalist examples off hand of any marines being interred against their will. They're have been some who were not quite overjoyed to wake up and find themselves a dreadnought such as the one in Crusade for Armageddon. Their was also a dark angels one in the anthology let the galaxy burn who didn't really like his dreadnought existence.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Another issue might be the Mind-Impulse Unit that the pilots use to commune with the machinery. In _Titanicus_, the story suggests that long-term use of MIUs can cause a progressive dementia, the strain of operating a body not their own and continually fighting the machine spirit for supremacy, becoming too much.
> 
> GFP


just joining in with...yes you are right fossil, in _Mechanicum_ the titan pilots slowly loose their mind any only live to fight and have to be intered in an amniotic tank (or what ever).


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