# Maxi-mining (an interesting challenge)



## Hywel (Nov 10, 2008)

Hi All,

Here's a challenge I'm planning to try to stretch the old tactical grey cells. 

In theory, a unit's usefulness is reflected by how many points it costs. In practice, of course, it is all about getting the most bang for your points, and putting together an army of units that works well together.

But here's the challenge: put together a 1500 pt list from your own fave army... but make it the very worst combo you can come up with. 

Your opponent does likewise. Then you swap armies- he plays your lousy, rotten, waste-of-space army roster. The one you've tried to make as ineffectual and expensive as possible. But you have to face your own list across the table, armed only with the dross of his codex. So think- what would you be LEAST afraid of facing, from your own army?

I call it maxi-minning (the opposite of mini-maxing). 

I wonder how many interesting tactical possibilities might be discovered by doing that. Anyone ever tried it? What would your worst combo be? I've been doing it as a thought experiment and it is quite fun to think how you could use all these normally-ignored units together as an effective force.

For my Necrons my first "worst guess" army would have the minimum number of warriors, maximum number of pariahs, monoliths, tomb spiders, maybe a C'Tan and really watch out for that phase out limit... but would you really want to be sitting across the table facing that list with the very worst units that your opponent can think to give you from his army list? :no:

Cheers, Hywel.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Objectives games with Ripper Swarm armies and Biovores.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

hmm probably chaos space marine squads with one heavy weapon. And bolt pistols and chainswords, and The IoK. just lots of them running at me.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

150- Broodlord + 5 Stealers (no upgrades)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)
224- 16 spinegaunts (every upgrade except WoN)

1494pts of total rubbish- kill the broodlord and the rest of the army will just run off the table

Alternatively thow in a couple of:
180pts- Fex- 2*rending claws, acid maw, +I, +BS, flesh hooks, regen, spore cists, sym rippers, TW scythe, thornback, toxin sacs.
the ultimate in rubbish fexs


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Start with Fabius Bile as the HQ. Take two squads of Chaos Marines. 5 marines per squad and giving them Fabius' enhanced warriors rule for both squads. My requirements are now met for the FOC. Now, fill in all of the remaining points with spawn units. 

So...

HQ) Fabius Bile
Comp 1) 5 chaos marines (enhanced by Fabius)
Comp 2) 5 chaos marines (enhanced by Fabius) 
*29* chaos spawn

That's _exactly_ 1,500 points... that's my crap list, try and beat it! You can't!!!


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## Valanehtar (Sep 10, 2009)

I got a good one (or horrible) courtesy of DH, and I'm pretty sure WH can do the exact same thing or close to...here goes:

HQ:
Inq Lord, Teleport Homer, Psy Bolts, GoTN, Purity Seals, Sacred Incense, Emperor's Tarot, Consecrated Scrolls, Carapace Armor, MC CCWs, MC hellpistol, Banishment, Destroy Daemon, Sanctuary, 3 Familiars, 3 Acolytes (Teleport Homer, Purity Seals), 3 Heirophants, 3 Mystics

330 pts (yea thats 330 points for an HQ with T3 and mainly 6+s and laspistols)

BC, Banishment, Storm Shield, MC Combi-plasma, Teleport Homer, Auspex

133 (that's right, I gave him a storm shield and took away his NFW)
Elite:
3 x Inq, Teleport Homer, Psy Bolts, GoTN, Purity Seals, Sacred Incense, Consecrated Scrolls, MC CCW, MC hellpistol, Banishment, Destroy Daemon, Santuary, 3 Heirophants, 3 Acolytes (Teleport Homer, Purity Seals)

250x3=750

Troops:
2 x 5 IST, Vet (Teleport Homer, MC hellgun, MC CCW)

2x 101=202

5 IST, Vet (Teleport Homer, MC hellgun)

85

Total: 1500 pts of crap


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Dark Eldar

HQ:
Haemonculus - 2 squads of 3 (432pts)
- destructor
- scissor hand
- combat drugs
-plasma grenades

Elites: 
7 mandrakes - (105pts)

Troops: 
10 warriors - 2 squads (160pts)

Heavy Support:
10 Scourge - 3 squads (798pts) (must deepstrike)
- 4 dark lances
- sybarite

Total: 1495pts


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Derpa-Tau

Shas'o with:
Advanced SS, Shield Generator, Targeting Array, Bonding knife, Failsafe detonater, Blacksun filt., Multi-Tracker, Target lock

A Retinue of 2 Shas'vre with:
Advanced SS, Shield Generator, Targeting Array, Bonding knife, Blacksun filter, Multi-Tracker, Target lock


Crisis team of 2 Shas'ui and 1 Shas'vre with:
Advanced SS, Shield Generator, Targeting Array, Bonding knife, Blacksun filter, Multi-Tracker, Target lock

Another 2 identical Crisis teams


Fire Warrior Team	of 7 Shas'la with:
Pulse Carbine, Photon grenades, EMP grenades
1 Shas'ui with:
Carbine, Photon grenades, EMP grenades, Mark.L, Drone controller, Gun Drone, Shield Drone, Blacksun Filter

Another identical Fire Warrior team, but the Shas'ui doesn't have a Drone controller or Blacksun Filter.


Exactly 1.5k, and only 17 guns.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Valanehtar said:


> I got a good one (or horrible) courtesy of DH, and I'm pretty sure WH can do the exact same thing or close to...here goes:
> 
> [list of horribleness]
> 
> Total: 1500 pts of crap


Witch hunters could go head to head with that I think.

*HQ*
Inquisitor Lord, 3 penitent, 3 familiars, Psychic hood, lots of other things, 192

Inquisitor Lord, 3 penitent, 3 familiars, Psychic hood, lots of other things, 192

3 Priests, lots of little things, 75 each (225)
*
Elites*
Inquisitor, 3 penitent, 3 familiars, bunch of little things, 143

Inquisitor, 3 penitent, 3 familiars, bunch of little things, 143

Inquisitor, 3 penitent, 3 familiars, bunch of little things, 143

*Troops*

5 IST, vet sarge with bionics, Melta bombs

5 IST, vet sarge with bionics, Melta bombs

*Heavy Support*

5 Retributers, 4 multimeltas, frag, krak, Sister Superior w/ bionics, Melta bombs 209


So, you have 18 guns in the army, the priest have to join the ISTs and the Retributers, and so they Always count as moving, meaning only 14 guns can actually ever fire, and those always count as moving, and you have to charge if able, so you can't shoot if you're within 6" of an enemy. And you could probably do even worse than that, if you took some completely useless options, which I tried to avoid.

so 13 las guns and a bolter can fire, all count as moving, so max 12" range.

Oh, and you get 13 kill points for killing that lot of tosh. Even spawn and spine gaunts and the dregs of the tau would wipe it up I'd say.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Derpa-Tau
> 
> Shas'o with:
> Advanced SS, Shield Generator, Targeting Array, Bonding knife, Failsafe detonater, Blacksun filt., Multi-Tracker, Target lock
> ...



I thought crap tau list would include Etherals more than suits for HQ and kroot for troops

You could waste more points on the SC Etheral


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> I thought crap tau list would include Etherals more than suits for HQ and kroot for troops
> 
> You could waste more points on the SC Etheral


Kroot for troops?
They're actually GOOD at something though, even without the proper support!
Kroot are a pretty decent CC unit, by no means a waste of points.
And dude, Ethereals ARE good if used right, they're just crap in combat.

But look at it dude, I've got a bunch of (rather hard to kill) Battlesuits, WHO HAVE NO GUNS!


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

I tried this challenge with Eldar, it really hilighted how each Eldar choice has its role.

Despite my best efforts, using the shittiest choices the armies I was coming up with would have chomped many of those already listed - but before we cry OP on Eldar, the interesting thing was that every army I came up with would have been crushed by even the worst of players with a bad regular army - the reason - the balance was completely off.

Each army would have functioned in one aspect of the game, expensively and badly but would have still functioned.

Would it be better to insist that the army you build is of actual functional units? this is more interesting as it gets you to question why the unit is "bad" and not simply field deliberatly sabotaged units such as unarmed battlesuits (is that really possible? I thought of fielding unarmed war walkers but the codex does not allow you to).

So shall we rephrase to build the most underpowered army you can, as in select and arm troops correctly and in a way in which someone might actually try and field them, but with the intention of making an army soo functionally weak it will be almost impossible to win.
The Genestealer army as a good example, in that it IS an army, but pretty damned flawed.

As for Eldar, yes I can see some ways of making the army aweful, but self nerfing is actually hard - even hawks have their uses :S


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## Hywel (Nov 10, 2008)

I was thinking more along the lines of a functional but underpowered army rather than deliberately sabotage units like unarmed battlesuits (the fluff for which would be really stretching a point: maybe they were surprised in mid-refit and their guns hadn't been re-installed yet?)

The broodlords-and-gaunts army is a very interesting one. Sure, kill the broodlord and the rest of the army is likely to scatter, but remember that your opponent is going to be trying to win with them and will therefore attempt to make the tactical best of the underpowered army you've given him, and will play accordingly. There's an awful lot of gaunts to try to survive, given that you are going to be fielding the most underpowered army he could give you, too. 

Eldar - lots of guardian units? Against my Necrons they seem to just evaporate...

Cheers, Hywel.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Sure- he'll have no choice but to hide the broodlord deep in his lines.. and will have to deploy his gaunts in lines to get every unit with a model within 12" of the BL.. the army has a LOT of dakka and is actually one of the best anti TH/SS lists (or would be if the gaunts had sensible biomorphs/weapons/pts) but if he gives me any shooting the BL is toast.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Bubble Matrix I'm pretty sure Tau have to take weapons aswell


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm coming up with an idea for a shitty WH list.. and got it down pat mostly.. but I don't have my WH codex here at works, so I can't give a definite list.
When I get home I'll show you the list that will lose to all those given!


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Hywel said:


> Eldar - lots of guardian units? Against my Necrons they seem to just evaporate...QUOTE]
> 
> True, but 1500 points of mostly guardians is a lot of guns - against any "real" army it would be toasted as they would be hopelessly outclassed. But against another deliberatly tailored "bad" army even the vanilla warriors become not that aweful. The reasons guardians are shocking dont constitute the same handicap a poorly formed army gains and ultimately their sheer number of dice will start to look pretty good.
> 
> ...


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## cybernomad (Oct 24, 2008)

Try this for an Eldar List

HQ
Plain Autarch

Troops

20 Guardians
Shuriken Cannon
Warlock
Enhance
x6

Fast

Vyper
Shuriken Cannon
Underslung shuriken cannon
holo-fields
x2


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Its pretty damned plain yes, but still has some capability, I think its too easy to get shuriken cannons into the army and they arent at all that bad.
An autarch with no specials is pretty dire (missed that one).

Another option I suppose is an army made of guardian jetbikes in 3's with no cannons, they would be owned and flee pretty quickly


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

This actually sounds like it would be a really fun game to play if you aren't feeling too competitive. The one big problem is that I don't have the models for my codex's worst options.

I would have a Slaaneshi lord on a mount. No special weapon, just his CCW. Throw in a bunch of footslogging berzerkers, some Chaos Dreads with HB and ML, and round it out with loads of Spawn.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Gul Torgo said:


> This actually sounds like it would be a really fun game to play if you aren't feeling too competitive. The one big problem is that I don't have the models for my codex's worst options.
> 
> I would have a Slaaneshi lord on a mount. No special weapon, just his CCW. Throw in a bunch of footslogging berzerkers, some Chaos Dreads with HB and ML, and round it out with loads of Spawn.


What's wrong with a Slaanesh lord on mount..?
I really like the idea, it'd do good as 

And Spawn I think are underappreciated.
Sure you can't control them, and they're unpredictable, but what the are is POWERFUL and kinda fast.
Seriously, anyone looking at that will either shoot it, or face a serious issue on its hands.


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## cybernomad (Oct 24, 2008)

Bubblematrix said:


> Its pretty damned plain yes, but still has some capability, I think its too easy to get shuriken cannons into the army and they arent at all that bad.
> An autarch with no specials is pretty dire (missed that one).
> 
> Another option I suppose is an army made of guardian jetbikes in 3's with no cannons, they would be owned and flee pretty quickly


The jetbike idea wouldn't be terrible... the only thing would be that 3+ cover save if they just zoom around the board. And if you group attack with them well, do a 6" assault move and use one squad as cover the list could actually do well.

The idea with the guardians and the warlock with enhance (silly point sink for regular guardians) is that its easy to make them flee without the embolden. 

Here is a list idea going with your jetbike idea.

HQ

Autarch

Troops

3 Jetbikes
x6

Elite
6 Banshees
WS, Acro, Executioner
x2

Heavy
3 Vibro Cannons
Lock 
Enhance
x3

Few more points to spend.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

*WH rubbish*

Right.. here is my attempt at creating 1500 points of inquisitorial Rubbish.

Inquisitor Lord 220
MC CCW
MC Shotgun
Bionics
Carapace Armour
Excruciators
Hexagrammic Wards
Psycannon bolts 
Purity Seals 
PsyOcculum 
Liber Heresius
PsyTracker

Psychic Powers:
Word of the Emperor
Purgatus

Retinue:
(Accolyte, MC Shotgun, MC CCW, Bionics, Auspex ) x 3
Servo Skull x 3
Penitent x 3
Total retinue: 195

Elites: ( where else to get more overpriced units I can totally sabotage? )

Inquisitor 132
MC CCW
MC Shotgun
Bionics
Carapace Armour
Hexagrammic Wards
Psycannon bolts
Purity Seals
PsyOcculum
Auspex
Psychic Hood
Liber Heresius

Psychic Power:
Word of the Emperor

Retinue:
(Accolyte, MC Shotgun, MC CCW, Bionics, Auspex ) x 3
Retinue cost: 156

Inquisitor 132
MC CCW
MC Shotgun
Bionics
Carapace Armour
Hexagrammic Wards
Psycannon bolts
Purity Seals
PsyOcculum
Auspex
Psychic Hood
Liber Heresius

Psychic Power:
Word of the Emperor

Retinue:
(Accolyte, MC Shotgun, MC CCW, Bionics, Auspex ) x 3
Retinue cost: 156

Inquisitor 125
MC CCW
MC Shotgun
Bionics
Carapace Armour
Hexagrammic Wards
Psycannon bolts
PsyOcculum
Psychic Hood
Liber Heresius

Psychic Power:
Word of the Emperor

Troops: ( I SUPPOSE I have to add some.. )

Inquisitorial Stormtrooper squad: 142
Trooper x 5 => Shotguns
Veteran Sergeant, MC Shotgun, MC CCW, Purity Seals, Rosarius, Bionics, Power Armour

Inquisitorial Stormtrooper squad: 142
Trooper x 5 => Shotguns
Veteran Sergeant, MC Shotgun, MC CCW, Purity Seals, Rosarius, Bionics, Power Armour


Total: 1500 points on the dot.

What you get:
0 anti-tank weapons
two 5 man troop squads to score.
2 4 man squads that can reroll 1 attack each but do not get extra close combat attacks for additional close comabt weapons and such, and most of which have a 6+ save, and WS/BS 3

A single inquisitor on their own that can do very little.
3 psychic hoods, of which you can only use 1 per psychic power fired at you, and it's wearer's leadership is 8, so it's not effective at all.

An inquisitor lord who has a FOUR pluss armour save instead of his regular 3+, due to his 'upgrades', and who can do just about jack squat, and has a unit full of nobodies.

Nobody in the army has a shooting range of more than 12"


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

I have to disagree with your Necron list. You will have a very hard time building a crappy necron list. The worst you could do would be:

Naked Lord
Naked Lord
10 Flayed Ones
10 Flayed Ones
10 Flayed Ones
10 warriors
10 Warriors
3 Tomb Spiders

That equals around 1265 and actually has some decent fight to it. Anything else you buy would actually be useful.
Note, you have maxed out on HQ, Elite and Hv slots. All you could get now are more warriors, destroyers, wraiths or scarabs. That may scarabs would be scary awesome.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

njfed said:


> I have to disagree with your Necron list. You will have a very hard time building a crappy necron list. The worst you could do would be:
> 
> Naked Lord
> Naked Lord
> ...


Lol, I'd dare you to give that to me to field, and I'll give you my 1500 points list.. I bet I'll kill you to bits!
The tomb spiders alone would tear a massive hole in that witchhunter list I posted :so_happy:


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

cybernomad said:


> Heavy
> 3 Vibro Cannons
> Lock
> Enhance
> ...


I would die of shame fielding enchanced Vibro Cannons :good:


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Well i'm sorry to tell you that i beat all of you.
Tyranid list:

-Plain Broodlord with no retinue.

-2x Ripper swarm

I dont know how much point it is, i dont have the nid codex, but here is my army. Remember that point limitations are ...limits! you can stay under if you want, you just dont have to go higher...so as this army as an HQ and 2 troops, it is perfectly legal.


If you really want a 1500 pts army, here is one....

Chaos Marines.

HQ(295): 
-Lord with MoT, mount and icon (135)
-Fabius Bile (160)

Elite(315): 
3x dreadnought with plasma canon and missile launcher (3x105)

Troops(600)
6xCSM "FabuisBilised" squad (5men) with autocanon(100)

Fast Attack(270)

Raptor squad (5 men) 2 plasma guns (130)
Raptor squad (5 men) plasma gun (115)
Spawn (40)

Total 1495 points.

Every squad in this army will have to choose between (small) firepower or (small) CC abilities. The 6 CSM and the Raptors squads are here to give free kill points. The raptors have plasma gun because , as they are Rapid fire weapons, the raptors wont be able to assault in the same turn, and will take lot of fire from close range. Same aplyes to autocanons in CSM squads, stay stationary to fire the autocanon is wasting 30 points of Strengh bonuses, and assaulting to use them is wasting the 10 points put on the autocanons. I could give them lascanons, but the AP4 of the autocanons was worse than having only one shoot. Finally, the dreads are here to shoot on your own troops with plasma canons and missiles, and the Lord just because ...welll he is useless.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Dies Irae said:


> Finally, the dreads are here to shoot on your own troops with plasma canons and missiles


Um, why would your opponent shoot at his own units when he takes over control of this army, if we were all talking sef suicide then its a whole other challenge and a lot easier.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Dies Irae said:


> Well i'm sorry to tell you that i beat all of you.
> Tyranid list:
> 
> -Plain Broodlord with no retinue.
> ...


LMAO for 2 reasons...
firstly you have a 3 unit army and have 3 illegal units in it (broodlord needs 5-11 stealers as a retinue and rippers needs units of 3). 
secondly- thats an immense idea, if not cheating a little... play a 1500pt game with 100pt armies (recon guard would probably out-do most people though).


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Lol, I'd dare you to give that to me to field, and I'll give you my 1500 points list.. I bet I'll kill you to bits!
> The tomb spiders alone would tear a massive hole in that witchhunter list I posted :so_happy:


My point exactly...Necrons are one of the few armies with no useless units. Mixing flayed ones with warriors means you have limited fire power with average CC units. This keeps you away from the nasty Necron units. I did not consider loading up the lords with pointless powers..like the chronometer power that lets you roll 3 dice to retreat. Anywho, against most other maxi-min armies you are going to win.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Tim/Steve -> I dont think the Broodlord MUST have a retinue. Playing him without is useless, but it is possible IIRC. And when i say Ripper swarm, i mean Ripper SwarmS...so take units of 3 if you want, it is still a <500 point army with no unit to take objectives, no firepower and very limited CC impact (the broodlord owns in CC, but he cant be everywhere ....)

And i dont play, i didn't even read the Codex in depth, but your idea sounds interesting. The main thing with Ripper Swarms is that, as Swarms, they can't hold objectives. You can use spinegaunts too, but at least Spinegaunts have some firepower + CC impact, and can hold objectives...


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Dies Irae said:


> Tim/Steve -> I dont think the Broodlord MUST have a retinue. Playing him without is useless, but it is possible IIRC. And when i say Ripper swarm, i mean Ripper SwarmS...so take units of 3 if you want, it is still a <500 point army with no unit to take objectives, no firepower and very limited CC impact (the broodlord owns in CC, but he cant be everywhere ....)


Trust me on this, I've studied the nid codex many times, and tim/steve is right, you can't have a broodlord with no retinue, the unit requirement is 1 broodlord and 5-11 stealers.

This is a mad thread. I really like dies irae's idea of taking a fire amount of reasonable stuff then nurfing it in clever ways. An army that doesnt look that terrible at a glance, but is bullshit to play.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

While yes, it's a smart idea to only field 100 pts worth of units, it's not quite the spirit of the idea here.
To formulate it precisely, create a 1500 points army, with no less than 1495 points, that is as rubbish as you possibly can.
I think I succeeded very nicely with my Witchunter list.
39 models, half of which have a 6+ armour save, no weapons above strength 3, nothing to bypass armour saves and no firing range over 12".


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> I think I succeeded very nicely with my Witchunter list.
> 39 models, half of which have a 6+ armour save, no weapons above strength 3, nothing to bypass armour saves and no firing range over 12".


I think you did too, but with my chaos marine list with only bile as the HQ, two 5 man CSM's as troops choice and 29 spawn to eat up the rest of the points I have you beat. Remember that spawn have no ranged attack, no save, slow and perp and are mindless with only a 3 for initiative. Yes they have 3 wounds but with no save at all against any attack they fall down very quickly to any shooting attacks and against a moderate mêlée unit they don't even get a chance to attack. 

So far only a few "crap" lists are actually that, crap. Some have a reasonable amount of stamina to take on a "regular" list if used to the full potential. 

I still think 29 spawn does fit the bill of a crap list for the simple fact that the have no save what-so-ever.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I would personally like to see how and army of spawn would go I used to have 12 spawn but they werent part of my army so sold them off. But it would be fun to see that many I mean after all you do need S10 weapons to instantly kill them so really Tau would be the main ones to have fun against them.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Unforgiven302 said:


> I think you did too, but with my chaos marine list with only bile as the HQ, two 5 man CSM's as troops choice and 29 spawn to eat up the rest of the points I have you beat. Remember that spawn have no ranged attack, no save, slow and perp and are mindless with only a 3 for initiative. Yes they have 3 wounds but with no save at all against any attack they fall down very quickly to any shooting attacks and against a moderate mêlée unit they don't even get a chance to attack.
> 
> So far only a few "crap" lists are actually that, crap. Some have a reasonable amount of stamina to take on a "regular" list if used to the full potential.
> 
> I still think 29 spawn does fit the bill of a crap list for the simple fact that the have no save what-so-ever.


spawn still would eat the WHs list alive. WH would be wounding on 6s, spawn on 2s, and any WH unit would have less attacks than 3 spawn. IT would be a massacre. The sheer amount of abuse you can do to the old 3rd ed armoury lists is quite impressive, with even vet sarges able to take upto a hundred points worth, is rather impressive. Any 4th or 5th ed. codex I think has no chance of beating it.

Inquisitor Einar: It's a good list, did you check out mine earlier in the thread? your list with a couple of priests (with only CC weapon ), and hell guns on the ISTs would be best I think, as it reduces even further the possiblity of the ISTs doing anything useful. Swap out the shot guns on your inqisitors too, you wouldn't want them accidently hurting the enemy now would you?:wink: Also, your alocytes have too much stuff on them, you can only give them 15 points. so take a mancatcher (swapping out las pistols), and bionics. So suddenly the unit has NO shooting attacks, spiffy eh?
So the whole army suddenly has no shooting over 12", and no shooting under 6" (thanks to priests on the ISTs).

So WH win. or lose. well, they win at losing.

And for something completely different, an analogy of this thread:
 (pops)

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

maddermax said:


> spawn still would eat the WHs list alive. WH would be wounding on 6s, spawn on 2s, and any WH unit would have less attacks than 3 spawn. IT would be a massacre. The sheer amount of abuse you can do to the old 3rd ed armoury lists is quite impressive, with even vet sarges able to take upto a hundred points worth, is rather impressive. Any 4th or 5th ed. codex I think has no chance of beating it.
> 
> Inquisitor Einar: It's a good list, did you check out mine earlier in the thread? your list with a couple of priests (with only CC weapon ), and hell guns on the ISTs would be best I think, as it reduces even further the possiblity of the ISTs doing anything useful. Swap out the shot guns on your inqisitors too, you wouldn't want them accidently hurting the enemy now would you?:wink: Also, your alocytes have too much stuff on them, you can only give them 15 points. so take a mancatcher (swapping out las pistols), and bionics. So suddenly the unit has NO shooting attacks, spiffy eh?
> So the whole army suddenly has no shooting over 12", and no shooting under 6" (thanks to priests on the ISTs).
> ...


We lived in a cardboard box in the middle of a highway, we had to get up 6 hours before we went to sleep, work 23 hours a day, and when we came home our father would feed us cold poison and dance on our graves singin' 'alelulia!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I know the rules for the acolytes.. and mastercrafting a weapon doesn't count for their wargear.. so if you give them two weapons that are both mastercrafted, you can get 30 points extra in the equasion.
Also, I thought about the priests, but unless you field a priest for every unit, the owning player can choose where to attach them to before the battle begins. And giving the wrong units a reroll to hit on the assault, even with their puny weapons was something I wanted to avoid.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> I know the rules for the acolytes.. and mastercrafting a weapon doesn't count for their wargear.. so if you give them two weapons that are both mastercrafted, you can get 30 points extra in the equasion.
> Also, I thought about the priests, but unless you field a priest for every unit, the owning player can choose where to attach them to before the battle begins. And giving the wrong units a reroll to hit on the assault, even with their puny weapons was something I wanted to avoid.


With master crafting, it's actually the other way around, at least that's what it seems to say in the amoury. The 15 point upgrade, but not the weapon cost, is taken from the points allowance.

As for the priests, in your army they can only and are required to join the ISTs, not the inquisitor squads, but I do see what you mean...

Anywho, how ever you do it, I doubt anything can lose against it


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

This is a cool idea. The games based on this would be good fun to play.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> This is a cool idea. The games based on this would be good fun to play.


You'd have to switch armies though, and do your BEST to win!


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

This list has a hard time winning:

Abbadon(yes)
Greater Daemon(guess whom he will possess?)

5 CSM
5 CSM

75 Lesser Daemons

Basically Abbadon will get possessed of a Greater Daemon, a huge pointsink if anything. The 75 lesser daemons can not be summoned since you lack icons, and the 2x5 CSMs are looking at a tough tomorrow
You do have 1 GD, which is fairly hard, but thats more or less your whole army:shok:


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## Baalirock (Oct 6, 2008)

Interesting idea! Haven't seen any Ork or Space Marine lists yet. I'll try my hand at a Gretchin-Heavy Ork list when I get home. :mrgreen:


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> This list has a hard time winning:
> 
> Abbadon(yes)
> Greater Daemon(guess whom he will possess?)
> ...


That's a fantastic idea!
Really though, I would take instead a stock Lord, just him, nothing else.
And then max out on Daemons, even more points wasted.

Remember, since the Daemons don't take up a slot, you're not limited to how many you can take


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

HQ: Primaris psyker - the one HQ choice that cant help my guardsmens LD

TROOPS: 

Infantry platoon:
Comand squad - flamer, sniper rifle, autocannon, power fist, plasmapistol
Infantry squad - flamer, lascannon, krack grenades, bolt pistol
Infantry squad - Meltagun, autocannon, krack grenades, bolt pistol
5X heavy weapon squad - heavy bolter, moarter, lascannon
5X special weapon squad, flamer, sniper, plasmagun

Penal leigion squad

FAST ATTACK:

Armored Sentinal squad:
3X armored sentinal, smoke launchers, search lights 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Leman Russ squadron:
Punisher, Vanquisher 

1500 exactly

Oh wow is for the days of doctorines! So many ways to nerf the guard with doctorines! alass...


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

so the basic idea is to make the shittiest army list ever and then prove how shit it is by beating it with your opponents shitty list. interesting.....


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

moshpiler said:


> so the basic idea is to make the shittiest army list ever and then prove how shit it is by beating it with your opponents shitty list. interesting.....


Yeah, exactly.
I mean, if you play your OWN shitty list, then you'll just stand still and do nothing.
But if you play your enemy's shitty list, you'll be trying your absolute HARDEST to win, to prove how shit YOUR list is.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I gave some thought to Space Marines, and honestly, the best thing I can come up with is a character running around by himself-- it's totally irrelevant as to which one it actually is-- the point is, the model isn't contributing its leadership to a squad and is easy to kill since he's on his own. Then, bring two minimum-size units of Scouts armed with pistols and knives, and nothing else for Troops. That makes it almost impossible to hold objectives, which is a third of the missions, and those are both easy kill points, which is another third of the missions. I'd then load up on things that can't possibly get a return on their points cost, but have specific niches in the army all the same-- things like Land Raiders. The thing about Land Raiders is that they're AV14 and are primed for delivering a devastating assault. However, if you use them as the actual means of primarily dealing damage to your opponent's army, you'll find that they're not points effective. They're excellent as supporting fire for whatever they've unloaded into the enemy's lines, but because of their high price tag, it's almost impossible to get an even return on your investment. Moreover, by bringing maybe three Land Raiders, you're offering up relatively easy targets for your opponent's anti-tank capabilities. While that sounds ludicrous at first glance, the army doesn't have the damage output potential to stop a charge, so things like power fists are going to get there. There's also the issue of the high instance of melta weapons running around this edition to contend with. That's just on the Imperial end of things, too-- an Eldar army of either persuasion, Tau army, or Necron army with Heavy Destroyers-- even ones that aren't particularly well played or constructed will ruin it. I'm a huge proponent of playing well over having a good army list-- I firmly believe that you can bring almost whatever you want to the table, provided you cover your bases, and you'll do fine if you play it intelligently. However, bright lances, railguns, and heavy gauss will all make a mockery of AV14, so investing say 1250-1500 points in heavy armor is a great way to not only not cover those aforementioned bases by bringing a well-rounded army, but a great way to watch your army die in a fire BECAUSE it's not well-rounded and has a glaring and easily exploitable weakness.

So, for shits and giggles:

1500 Point Space Marine army

HQ/
Chaplain
-Bolt pistol, power fist, meltabombs, jump pack. _He jumps around on his own, trying to go tank hunting, but just gets shot._

ELITES/
Dreadnought
-Extra armour, twin-linked lascannon, heavy flamer _the heavy flamer is a waste of points here, since the dreadnought is probably going to spend its time in the back field with its lascannon. More importantly, the anti-tank capabilities of the army are so steeply loaded that the dreadnought would be better with an anti-infantry weapon, such as an assault cannon or plasma cannon._

ELITES/
Techmarine
-Servo Harness, Plasma Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Four Servitors; two of which have heavy bolters. _On first glance, not a bad call to bring a Techmarine in an army so front-loaded with heavy armor. However, there are redundant, expensive things on the Techmarine, and the servitor unit not only makes it more vulnerable to shooting, as it forgoes its Independent Character functionality while it's got its own unit it can't leave, but the heavy bolters will either never fire as the techmarine constantly moves to keep up with the land raiders, or will force the unit to be stationary, so that the techmarine never actually does his job of keeping the vehicles in the fight._

TROOPS/
Scout Squad
-5-strong. Each is armed with a bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

TROOPS/
Scout Squad
-5-strong. Each is armed with a bolt pistol and close combat weapon. _These are both easy kill points, and in missions where kill points aren't in place, they're the only Scoring Units, and are absurdly easy to kill-- aim a heavy bolter at them and watch what happens..._

HEAVY SUPPORT/
Land Raider
-Extra Armour, Pintle Storm Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT/
Land Raider
-Extra Armour, Pintle Storm Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT/
Land Raider
-Extra Armour, Pintle Storm Bolter _So, at first glance, the Land Raiders provide a lot of versatility. They can get where you need them, and have a mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower available to them in the form of a twin heavy bolter and pintle storm bolter and two twin lascannons. Power of the Machine Spirit means the vehicle can engage both an infantry unit with the twin heavy bolter, and an armored target with a lascannon each turn. However, the output isn't enough to actually stop the opposing army from getting SOMETHING capable of opening AV14 to it. Similarly, the damage output isn't high enough to neutralize a horde army that may not actually HAVE a way of dealing with AV14. Three models comprising more than half of the army also means that target selection for your opponent is really a non-issue-- while the Scouts could, theoretically, be inside the Land Raiders, that just leaves every gun aimed at the Chaplain and the Techmarine that can't ding AV14, and every anti-tank weapon the other guy brought aimed at four models. It's a great way to get tabled by turn 3 or 4 without having actually made a serious dent in your opponent's ability to stop you. Now, I suppose, by some fluke, if you went first and destroyed six vehicles between the three Land Raiders (as they can split fire with PotMS), you might actually be okay, particularly if you're fighting against an Imperial Guard army that brought that many vehicles. But that's a very specific circumstance, and not one that's even vaguely statistically likely to come up._


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Heh, TSoH, if you'd field that, I will totally CRUSH you when you try and use my feeble Inquisitorial force of 29 models, most of which have less weapons, and less armour and less toughness than you. Against the crap force you will be playing ( my witchhunters ), those 3 landraiders will have a FIELD day, since there is no anti-tank capability at all in that force. So the techmarine won't need to repair them, so can hang back and oblitorate all those squads that don't get any saves against those wonderfull heavy bolters you gave me 

The dread will be doing the same, walking forward and crushing anything underfoot.


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## jaren (Jul 7, 2008)

black templar:
HQ:
emperor's champion with abhor the witch 110 pts

castellan with a bolter 66

command squad with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour hunter killer missile pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit 220

Elites:
sword bretheren with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour hunter killer missile pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit search light and smoke 239

sword bretheren with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour hunter killer missile pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit 235

sword bretheren with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit 220

troops:
crusader squad with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit 205
crusader squad with 5 bolter initiates crusader seals frag and krak grenades with a
rhino with dozer blades extra armour pintle mounted storm bolter power of the machine spirit 205

all for 1500 points

i think the problem is this can possible do damage against some of the other armies, lol.

the thing i did though is you got 14 kill points to destroy, no close combat on a known close combat army, only 2 units that can take and control objectives, the hq's are horrible ineffective, and the elites are way to overpriced for what you get. yes i know all this is in armour, but it is light armour.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> and the servitor unit not only makes it more vulnerable to shooting, as it forgoes its Independent Character functionality while it's got its own unit it can't leave


Nope, the Techmarine is free to leave the squad of Servitors.
They're not a retinue, they're a separate unit entirely.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Forgot to include the reason to my madness:



Col. Schafer said:


> HQ: Primaris psyker - the one HQ choice that cant help my guardsmens LD
> 
> TROOPS:
> 
> ...


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

I brought this up with my friends and one of them said take a chaos lord (no wargear), two 5 man CSM squads (no wargear), and with the rest of the points take lesser demons. If you don't take an icon the demons can't come in.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

davespil said:


> I brought this up with my friends and one of them said take a chaos lord (no wargear), two 5 man CSM squads (no wargear), and with the rest of the points take lesser demons. If you don't take an icon the demons can't come in.


Someone already suggested this.



MaidenManiac said:


> This list has a hard time winning:
> 
> Abbadon(yes)
> Greater Daemon(guess whom he will possess?)
> ...


Doesn't make it any less fantastic an idea.
Frankly it beats my Derpa-Tau (who simply had an amazing lack of guns), as nothing is above S4 except for 11 Krak grenades.
You'd have a very hard time winning with 11 models!


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

your missing the point that your opponent would be playing that list, he wouldnt posses abbadon untill he was on his last wound, thereby maximizing the advantage of having him.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Having an army that actually doesnt work is not really in the spirit of this- you want to make a fully workable 1500pt list which is just totally and irredeamably crap. 

I just wish that we could do this in fantasy-
Bruiser, Maw seeker
622 Gnoblars
3 Bulls

a stupid Ld8 general, a compulsory core choice and almost a 25*25 unit of gnoblars (with max SCR of 3)


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Imperial Guard:

Primaris Psyker

2x 10 Veterans with Shotguns and Heavy Flamer (Demolitions, Forward Sentries and Grenadiers)

2x 8 Ogryns with Bone 'ead

2x Deathstrike Missile Launchers

1500 points.

2x scary av12 tanks for sucking up all the opposing AT fire
2x large mobs of Ogryns for soaking up wounds while the crappy, overpriced veterans go flame something.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Angels Of Flame said:


> your missing the point that your opponent would be playing that list, he wouldnt posses abbadon untill he was on his last wound, thereby maximizing the advantage of having him.


Nice fail.
When the Greater Daemon becomes available from reserves, you HAVE TO choose a valid model to possess, it's not an option.
So as soon as the GD becomes available, Abbadon is either in reserves or dead.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm pretty sure a shitty Tau army would have to include the maximum number of sniper drones (240 points for 9), 2 sky rays w/o upgrades (240) a minimized Pathfinder squad (4 models + devilfish = 128pts), 2 squads of 6 Fire Warriors each with Pulse Carbines (120), and for the two remaining fast attack slots - two lonesome Piranhas fully kitted out with seeker missiles and whatnot. Oh, and any Kroot squads you take must have 3 mandatory Krootox and of course the 6+ save upgrade. HQ is an Ethereal with 2 gun drones and no retinue. Blacksun filters and EMP grenades all around.

All you have to do is kill 6 fire warriors and it won't be able to hold an objective. Then, the rest of the army should be so offensively stunted that whoever they're fighting could hold an objective with grots without facing heavy losses.:so_happy:


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Tau fail.


Actually, I did better 



Winterous said:


> Derpa-Tau
> 
> Shas'o with:
> Advanced SS, Shield Generator, Targeting Array, Bonding knife, Failsafe detonater, Blacksun filt., Multi-Tracker, Target lock
> ...


Battlesuits WITHOUT GUNS!


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Winterous from what I recall Tau XV8's must take weapon systems (don't have codex on me) as I remember reading in there they must fill all 3 slots


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Winterous from what I recall Tau XV8's must take weapon systems (don't have codex on me) as I remember reading in there they must fill all 3 slots


Nope, don't have to take weapons.
They must fill all 3 slots with Weapon systems and/or Support systems.


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## Crude (Mar 15, 2009)

okay.. I think you could play an epic tournament with this. Everybody shows up with their shitty list and hands it to the person on their left. This is the army they will be using for the whole tournament - possibly an army they have never played before and have no understanding of how to play either.

If its a tournament, it needs rules!

1500 points - the army must be between 1490 and 1500 points.

Nothing unusable - by this i mean, no demons that cannot be summoned, no heavy weapons in squads that are required to move every turn or otherwise cannot shoot them etc.. on the other hand, replacing a good weapon with a crap one would be acceptable.

anybody disagree or have anything to add? go for it.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Crude said:


> okay.. I think you could play an epic tournament with this. Everybody shows up with their shitty list and hands it to the person on their left. This is the army they will be using for the whole tournament - possibly an army they have never played before and have no understanding of how to play either.
> 
> If its a tournament, it needs rules!
> 
> ...


It makes more sense to switch lists with your opponent every time you play, because then you can heavily exploit the weaknesses of your own list.
Unfortunately, doing that means you need to spend time working out how to best play the list you're given.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Actually, I did better
> 
> 
> 
> Battlesuits WITHOUT GUNS!


No, no, no. Pathfinders will always suck more than XV8's with no guns, because, let's face it - at least XV8's can function in close combat!

And how can you bring more fail to your army list than a lonely Ethereal with nothing but 2 gun drones? Or 2 single piranhas with ALL upgrades? That's basically a 110 point burst cannon with 18" movement per round!


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

an Ork list, with two big meks with choppas as HQ's all my troop choices taken up with maxed out gretchin squads, and a bunch of nob squads to soak up massive points, but without any special upgrades. and a random assortment of deffcopas and other junk.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> No, no, no. Pathfinders will always suck more than XV8's with no guns, because, let's face it - at least XV8's can function in close combat!
> 
> And how can you bring more fail to your army list than a lonely Ethereal with nothing but 2 gun drones? Or 2 single piranhas with ALL upgrades? That's basically a 110 point burst cannon with 18" movement per round!


You're kidding right?
Pathfinders are one of the best units in the army!

Not for their shooting obviously, but for their sheer weight of Markerlights.
And even then, they're just Fire Warriors with Carbines (the 18" range is useful on foot), but cost 2 points more.
Their Devilfish is great too, because it allows you to re-roll Deep Strike scatter!

Anyway, the Ethereal could always join a unit, he doesn't have to be alone.
I'll admit though, the Piranha are pretty fail.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Send the ethereal forward and get him killed... then COMBAT TAU woot


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Send the ethereal forward and get him killed... then COMBAT TAU woot


With lots of Battlesuits, you could actually do that to decent avail.
I mean, it'd still be worthless, but it could really surprise a lot of people with how well they do.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

You weren't trying hard enough with crap Eldar 

Autarch with Lasblaster and Banshee Mask 74
10 Stormies 80
10 Stormies 80
10 Stormies 80
3x Vypers, All upgrades, Bright Lances 495
3x Vypers, All upgrades, Bright Lances 495
3x Vibrocannon with Warlock with Spiritseer, Singing Spear and Enhance 193
1497

1000pts in 6x Armour 10 vehicles? That hit with 3 shots per turn, gibbing 2 infantry or causing 1-2 damaging hits on any armour 12 vehicle (on average)? Oh, and they get destroyed if they're immobilised, even with Vectored Engines! :laugh:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hmm, thought of a new fun nid list to do:

96pts- 3 Warriors- scything, rending, leaping
240pts- 24 WoN Devigaunts
240pts- 24 WoN Devigaunts
230pts- 23 WoN Devigaunts
230pts- 23 WoN Devigaunts
230pts- 23 WoN Devigaunts
230pts- 23 WoN Devigaunts
1496

280 S2 shots a turn, 6W in synapse that must be in CC to kill anything.... and once/if the synapse is dead the nid army will start doing the Okey-Cokey on and off the board as WoN keeps bringing back any unit that runs off 
Its not the worst army list done but it'll cause the opposition to bang his head onto the table and laugh/cry:cray:... I am an evil genious 

Sethis's vehicles are looking pretty safe now :


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Hmm, thought of a new fun nid list to do:
> 
> 96pts- 3 Warriors- scything, rending, leaping
> 240pts- 24 WoN Devigaunts
> ...


First of all, why don't you give pointless upgrades?
Like +1 BS for the Melee Warriors 
And +1 Armour for the Gaunts, AP5 is common as dirt after all!
Oh, and why not simply take 2 ripper swarms as Troops? Then you can't even capture objectives!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> You're kidding right?
> Pathfinders are one of the best units in the army!


What??? They've been 100% codex space waste since they came out lol up until they errata'ed the part where they had to be on foot to get a scout move, that raised their usefulness to "slightly more useful than slag"


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Winterous said:


> First of all, why don't you give pointless upgrades?
> Like +1 BS for the Melee Warriors
> And +1 Armour for the Gaunts, AP5 is common as dirt after all!
> Oh, and why not simply take 2 ripper swarms as Troops? Then you can't even capture objectives!


I feel you may not have understood the joy of this army- I went for 'comedy' over 'crapness'...its still rubbish but is also the perfect counter to some of these other rubbish lists (eg Einar's), but at the same time a couple of long range shots will result in TOTAL CHAOS


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

buckythefly said:


> an Ork list, with two big meks with choppas as HQ's all my troop choices taken up with maxed out gretchin squads, and a bunch of nob squads to soak up massive points, but without any special upgrades. and a random assortment of deffcopas and other junk.


I have been pondering something like that too:

2x Weirdboy Warphead 85
(LD 7 Psyker? Not a single Ork unit in the army to help him out...Good luck )

6x 30 Grots + 3 Runt Herds w Grot Prods
(180 Grots are many, but this quantity lacks a quality of its own completely. In order to be able to fit into the BWs they must first lose atleast 13 models and then pass an LD test...)

Wartrakk: RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armour Plates
(filling the last points out, the army actually got 1 half-decent gun here...)

3x Battlewagon: Ard Case, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Stickbomb Chukka, Armour Plates, Boardingplank, Wrecking Ball, Grabing Claw, Reinforced Ram
(Well, not a single gun and really nothing that benefits from riding in it, sounds good to me)

Deffkopta version

2x Weirdboy Warphead 85
(LD 7 Psyker? Not a single Ork unit in the army to help him out...Good luck )

6x 30 Grots + 3 Runt Herds w Grot Prods
(180 Grots are many, but this quantity lacks a quality of its own completely. In order to be able to fit into the BWs they must first lose atleast 13 models and then pass an LD test...)

2x5 Deffkoptas w BigBooms, this is probably even worse


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> What??? They've been 100% codex space waste since they came out lol up until they errata'ed the part where they had to be on foot to get a scout move, that raised their usefulness to "slightly more useful than slag"


I saw nothing in the FAQ about their scout move.
They don't need to be on foot, the Scouts rule is conferred to any Dedicated transports.

And that alone means they can get into a good position to use their Markerlights from the get go.
I really don't understand how you don't like them, they're magnificent.



Tim/Steve said:


> I feel you may not have understood the joy of this army- I went for 'comedy' over 'crapness'...its still rubbish but is also the perfect counter to some of these other rubbish lists (eg Einar's), but at the same time a couple of long range shots will result in TOTAL CHAOS


And oh yes, fair enough 
It would be funny to watch, but they could always just lurk.

Oh, and with the WON rules, it's actually voluntary to bring them on.
It says along the lines of:

"In the turn following the unit's destruction, you may bring them back on the board "

Meaning at the start of your next turn, you're given the option of bringing them back on, or leaving them dead.
You only get the option the turn following their death though, so if you leave them dead, they stay dead.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> I saw nothing in the FAQ about their scout move.
> They don't need to be on foot, the Scouts rule is conferred to any Dedicated transports.
> 
> And that alone means they can get into a good position to use their Markerlights from the get go.
> I really don't understand how you don't like them, they're magnificent.


The first Tau faq after 3rd ed. codex came out, GW stated the scout move was *not* conferred to the devilfish.

Then, after 2 years they made a general errata about the scout special rule and said any units with it conferred it to their transport.

2 years of space waste.

Then, they made up what was supposed to be the great savior from Spess Muhreens, the Rail Rifle, as Tau had extremely few AP3 or better weapons. This was of course a joke of a solution, to stick up to 4 of these in a pathfinder squad and expect them to murder space marines by the handfuls. lols.

And then they made Vespid, an entirely different matter, but we all know how ineffective they are.

Anyway, the reason I dislike them is because they are too expensive points wise, the unit is too small and they will go *poof* before turn 2 due to led poisoning. I mean, a unit of max 8 models with carapace armor is the first to stick it's neck out means it's already dead.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> And then they made Vespid, an entirely different matter, but we all know how ineffective they are.


Unfortunately, Vespid are not good 
I love them so much, easily one of my favorite units in the game, but they're just not good enough!

I think to improve them, they need Counter Attack, (they're supposed to be quick-witted, they deserve it) Rending on their CC attacks, (their claws can dig through rock easily) and maybe 2 attacks.
They also need 2 of the following:

18" range.
Assault 2 weapons.
A cost reduction to 12-13 points.

I think those 2 things in combination would make them quite good!



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Anyway, the reason I dislike them is because they are too expensive points wise, the unit is too small and they will go *poof* before turn 2 due to led poisoning. I mean, a unit of max 8 models with carapace armor is the first to stick it's neck out means it's already dead.


Fair enough I guess, they do die easily if shot at, but no more easily than Fire Warriors, and the damage they can (help) do by that time is quite significant!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Unfortunately, Vespid are not good
> I love them so much, easily one of my favorite units in the game, but they're just not good enough!
> 
> I think to improve them, they need Counter Attack, (they're supposed to be quick-witted, they deserve it) Rending on their CC attacks, (their claws can dig through rock easily) and maybe 2 attacks.
> ...


lol, and here I am just wanting the cost to go down. Their weapons should definitely be assault 2, and counter attack would be nice. But then the points cost would logically stay the same. At the moment though, they are brutally overpriced for their use and too flimsy.

Sadly, Tau's weakest unit.

But my favourite unit isn't exactly top tier either, XV25. They also suffer from this-points-cost-is-something-we-decided-when-drunk syndrome.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> lol, and here I am just wanting the cost to go down. Their weapons should definitely be assault 2, and counter attack would be nice. But then the points cost would logically stay the same. At the moment though, they are brutally overpriced for their use and too flimsy.
> 
> Sadly, Tau's weakest unit.
> 
> But my favourite unit isn't exactly top tier either, XV25. They also suffer from this-points-cost-is-something-we-decided-when-drunk syndrome.


I said counter-attack, rending, and MAYBE 2 attacks, I admit that would make them quite deadly in melee (they SHOULD be though).
If they got 2 attacks, they'd definitely stay the same cost, and probably only get 1 of those 3, ok so 2 attacks is on the list, so 2 of those 4 I think.

Frankly I'd be rapped if they got Rending, Counter Attack, Assault 2 guns, and 2 attacks, they'd be WORTH their cost then!

Keeping in mind, they'd still be equally as fragile.


One thing I've never understood though, is how can they really be considered fragile if they can take cover?
I mean, they re-roll DT tests, so there's only a 1/36 chance of them hitting a tree (justification for Counter Attack, they're quick to react), so they'll usually get their 4+ cover.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Oh, and with the WON rules, it's actually voluntary to bring them on.
> It says along the lines of:
> 
> "In the turn following the unit's destruction, you may bring them back on the board "
> ...


Yeah I know.. but the player using the army is trying to win.. leaving the gaunts dead isnt gonna help them with that unless its anhiliation... and that requires them to get a lead.

Lurking would be a good plan with this list so long as the enemy has nothing with more then 18" range..


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