# Female Primarch??



## Talonmaster Raptoris

just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs?? 
I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


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## Khorne's Fist

The Primarchs were created using the Emperor's own DNA, to be his clones almost. I would guess that he deliberstly engineered them to be *men* to lead the Legions of space marine *men* that he would later create. 

Besides, on a personal note, female Primarch? That's just wrong.:no:uke:


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## Fenrakk101

All the SMs, CSMs, and even new SM recruits are all male. It's probably because the Emporer is male, and so his clones were, and his clone's clones were(SMs). This probably started a tradition that went down through the new recruits and such.


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## Ian_V

Khorne's Fist said:


> The Primarchs were created using the Emperor's own DNA, to be his clones almost. I would guess that he deliberstly engineered them to be *men* to lead the Legions of space marine *men* that he would later create.
> 
> Besides, on a personal note, female Primarch? That's just wrong.:no:uke:


Yup, males being genespliced with female DNA. Whatever would result from that would be just wrong...


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## Son of mortarion

THe argument that because it was all based upon the emperor's genes is sound, both with science and fluff. The reason the emperor used males is because part of the process is hoemonr treatments, and the amount od testosterone necessary for the process would make any female subjects effectively male, thus making it pointless to use females.


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## nightmare12369

hermafroditic primarch anyone?


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## Haraldrr

nightmare12369 said:


> hermafroditic primarch anyone?


no thanksuke:


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## Angel of Retribution

Oh i don't know a female primarch would be especially useful around that certain time of the month....she'd be able to wipe out planets single handedly, just don't try talking to her! It could possibly be the same for an hermaphrodite primarch but didn't they do one of those already; Fulgrim (pink/purple armour, flowing hair, thought he was prettiest primarch and got into wierd orgies and shit!)


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## Cato Sicarius

Primarch of Slaanesh!


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## Epic Fail

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??



Because a female primach on her period would end the imperium.


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## Camaris

It's very simple but not so politically correct.

Men have superior strength and stamina over women and are more suited to battle/hunting/defending then women who's primary function is to raise babies (talking from an evolutionairy standpoint here, not a conviction or a slight to women). This is even apparent in the male and female psychology.

If you want to create super soldiers you use men. Not women. Because you have to start with the best possible body to improve upon. Why make something (female sm) when you can make it better from the start up (male sm).

Now girls, before you get angry at me just know I would let you run the whole world. Just leave the fighting up to the men.


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## Maggard

it would beg the question what woman would have been worthy enough to provide the DNA for the female primarchs as well, Emperor = immortal and essentially the most powerful human to have ever lived, there's just no woman even close to being that good in the 40k fluff. 
Also i have to agree with some of the other guys, the amount of hormone therapy a human'd have to go through to become a marine would make it pretty sick for a woman to go through with it and ofc since only the guys who're the absolute peak of physical perfection have a hope in hell of getting picked and surviving the process the pool of potential women getting in becomes incredibly small.


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## Mithras

What about sisters of battle? I'm a warhammer guy myself so don't know much 40k fluff... but they're basically strong enough to wear power armour, if not quie up to par with space marines in other departments (that was based on one game I watched where sisters got slapped around by SM in close combat)

Don't the sisters go through a similiar GM proccess?


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## Khorne's Fist

Mithras said:


> What about sisters of battle? I'm a warhammer guy myself so don't know much 40k fluff... but they're basically strong enough to wear power armour, if not quie up to par with space marines in other departments (that was based on one game I watched where sisters got slapped around by SM in close combat)
> 
> Don't the sisters go through a similiar GM proccess?



Sisters don't go through anything like SMs do. They are not enhanced in any way beyond what rigourous training, strict discipline, and religious indoctrination would do for you. As for wearing power armour, you don't have to have a certain level of strength to wear it. It enhances the wearer's strength but is not reliant on it.


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## Mithras

Ah... well thanks for clearing that up...
Hey wait a minute, are you saying that while SM aren't good enough to defend mankind and wear power armour till they've been through genetic modifaction and all that. All the SoB have to do to get basicaly the same equipment and job just by being completely faithful/bonkers?


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## Camaris

> Hey wait a minute, are you saying that while SM aren't good enough to defend mankind and wear power armour till they've been through genetic modifaction and all that. All the SoB have to do to get basicaly the same equipment and job just by being completely faithful/bonkers?


Eeehhh... No.
Their genetic modification provides them with numerous upgrades that have no effect in game. The ability to spit poison, the closing of the ribs over the ribcage, the secondary heart, the ability to absorb a slain enemies memories by eating his flesh or drinking his blood, etc...
And the Black Carapace which is a part of their transformation allows them to fully intergrate with their power armour. It has no effect in game but it would be like putting an every-day-joe or a formula one pilot behind the wheel of a super charged car.
Sure you can use it to go 40 mph but to really get the most out of it you need Fernando Alonso.


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## normtheunsavoury

Ian_V said:


> Yup, males being genespliced with female DNA. Whatever would result from that would be just wrong...


There's got to be a Slaaneshy joke in there somewhere!


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## Khorne's Fist

Camaris said:


> Eeehhh... No.
> Their genetic modification provides them with numerous upgrades that have no effect in game. The ability to spit poison, the closing of the ribs over the ribcage, the secondary heart, the ability to absorb a slain enemies memories by eating his flesh or drinking his blood, etc...
> And the Black Carapace which is a part of their transformation allows them to fully intergrate with their power armour. It has no effect in game but it would be like putting an every-day-joe or a formula one pilot behind the wheel of a super charged car.
> Sure you can use it to go 40 mph but to really get the most out of it you need Fernando Alonso.


Exactly. 40k stats don't really represent just how superior a SM is. For a more realistic idea look at the Inquisitor stats, were a marine is three times as strong as a guardsman, twice as tough, and can use all of the above mentioned abilities. And that's without power armour.


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## Sniper

Thats true but even GW arent dumb enough to make SM that powerfull on the tabletop! *wishes they were*:biggrin:

Sniper


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## The Son of Horus

If it consoles anyone, Games Workshop at least made one of the Primarchs effeminate... I mean, it's behaviorally similar... and if you don't get the Michael Jackson vibe from Fulgrim... yeah.


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## Sniper

....theres something up with u! lol 

Sniper


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## Alaric

Epic Fail said:


> Because a female primach on her period would end the imperium.


hahaha sooooo true.

and the gene seed doesnt work with females. thats why there is no female space marines. and im guessing it has to do with that they have the emperors DNA. which hes a man. which is in his DNA. so there mean also.


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## Morgal

There are "movie marines" who's stats are more in line with what SM are like in fluff.

Bassically you have a 1500 army in 2 5 man squads.


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## Baltar

*clears throat*.... Guess most of us gamers missed biology 101 then eh?

Just because the Emperor is male does not mean that he does not carry genes necessary to create a female offspring... Ever wondered why you can get twins who are brother and sister... Any person carries gametes for either gender of offspring in equal propportion...

Remember, they didnt CLONE the Emperor, so its not just like taking his DNA in its entirety and inserting it into a gamete to recreate himself... its just taking some portion of each part of his DNA to create 20 different primarchs as offspring... If you morphed all the primarchs together, you would get one whole Emperor (each primarch is meant to represent some facet of the emperor's characteristics).

So if we are being anally retentively picky about it, there should technically be 10 female primarchs and 10 male ones...

Although... female primarchs would suck big time...


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## Baltar

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Although... female primarchs would suck big time...


Sorry, absolutely NO pun intended btw... :biggrin:


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## Cato Sicarius

Lol, that just sounded wrong! But even so, your right about the gene thing.


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## godzy

well, Marines are actually chimeras after the procedures they undergo. 



> So if we are being anally retentively picky about it, there should technically be 10 female primarchs and 10 male ones...


 since the Emperor is the ultimate MAN, might he actually have two Y chromosomes? I have herd that two Y chromosome are more pron to violent behavior -> a masculine quality non can argue. as he is so perfect he suffers from no mutation (except that whole psyker stuff) side effects.

to create a female from the emperor you will need to use the same X chromosome twice (if he has any), which has a high risk of mutation.


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## Baltar

True, but also if we are being really picky, and use both his X and Y chromosome, then you just get another Emperor (a cloned copy)...

Although, if you take one X chromosome from one gamete produced by the Emperor, and a different X chromosome from another one of his gamete's (of which there would be a huge selection), then you would get a range of differences... rather than taking it directly from cells in his body... (his gametes being sperm, which contain a variation on his own DNA - but not a direct copy)

And his Gametes would ALSO contain Y chromosomes...

Unless, as you say he has double Y chromosomes. But that would be a genetic mutation...


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## Baltar

PS: referring just to creation of Primarchs... Marines are not really the same...


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## revenant13

hmmm

female primarch having her period VS agron having the biggest fit ever.

who would win?


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## Grik

revenant13 said:


> hmmm
> 
> female primarch having her period VS agron having the biggest fit ever.
> 
> who would win?


lol 

Female Primarch hands down. 

Now after Angron becomes the ultimate Daemon Prince badass he wins.

I just can't see anyone- even a hyer hormonal woman- beating that.


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## Angel of Retribution

Think of a female primarch who is pregnant and going in labour...talk about anger issues! I know it sounds stereotypical but its bloody true....women in labour hate men and probably bad-arse daemon primarchs too!!!


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## NerdyOgre254

There's one way to definitely make sure that the female Primarch wins:

"Angron Stole YOur Chocolate!"

stand WELL back from her.


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## [email protected]

Gene-seed of the emporer which is inside all marines can only be matched with male DNA


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## LordWaffles

Hahaha in any other hobby we might have issues about offending people.

But more to the point, if you really want to make a female primarch, go for it, it makes a nice plotline for all the imperial armies attacking your female spess mehreens "HERESY!"

But I think the reason there isn't female marines is because of what someone said earlier, the testosterone treatment would just make her effectively male anyway, but at a slight defeciet of muscle mass and anger(Albeit slight)


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## The Thunder Ravens

I don't think discounting female space marines as viable is a good idea since the whole 40k system is dependent on suspension of belief. My point here being the 2 chapters that were deleted from the chapter list in the background could have had female primarchs and thats the reason they were deleted personally i like the modelling opportunities that female marines provide i've posted my female marine captain in the gallery section and i think it's still there go have a look if you wanna know what i think a female marine would look like.


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## lawrence96

okay if there were some SMurfettes created, but only partially (not as many enhancements) wouldn't it benefit the imperium as they could breed with the SMurfs and have a genetically superior offspring thereby if not recreating a perfect SM but making a hybrid able to bolster IG lines, of course some would be perfect for the SM but what i mean is the "rejects" and you would be able to get a higher success rate for the SM recruitment.

please discuss


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## Red Geist

Are we talking about Female Primarchs or Female Space Marines?

For Female SMs, if the chapter was ok with the concept, she could be given the genetic modifications. First of all, she probably have to be a Battle Sister to survive the training. But the hormonal stimulant implant is not direct DNA of the Emperor, it is diluted by any of hundreds of Marines who died but had retrievable progenoid glands. There could be any possibility of what her appearence would end up to be, but with a suit of power armor and a helmet makes it a moot point. Nobody could tell!

Female Primarch: It doesnt matter if they are a clone, they are grown, thus any modifications can be made to the appearence. Fulgrim doesnt look like him, and Gulliman doesnt look like Fulgrim. I think a female Primarch would end up like St. Celestine only taller and carrying a real gun.


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## Farseer Beltiac

The Thunder Ravens said:


> My point here being the 2 chapters that were deleted from the chapter list in the background could have had female primarchs and thats the reason they were deleted personally i like the modelling opportunities that female marines provide i've posted my female marine captain in the gallery section and i think it's still there go have a look if you wanna know what i think a female marine would look like.



Ummmm....hello? Sisters of Sexy Battle:biggrin:??? Ummm.....oh crap, I hope there aren't many ladies on here.....I'm so friggin' screwed.....


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## Red Geist

Sisters of Battle are normal Humans with most SM weapons, but with the genetic implants, I think that the end result would make no difference when side by side in a suit of power armor.


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## BloodANgels89

Th reason why there is NO female space marine is simple...They're bodies can not handle the gene seed. Which is why Sisters of Battle remain lesser than a Space Marine (in terms of power in combat), because they can not handle the super human transformation.


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## Red Geist

But what about a Female Primarch, if the Emperor can build clones of himself from scratch, he could simply add a woman's DNA or simply play with his own genes to create the person.

What kind of armor and weapons would she have? What would her combat tactics be, and which Legion/Chapter would she lead?


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## Camaris

> What kind of armor and weapons would she have? What would her combat tactics be, and which Legion/Chapter would she lead?


She'd have none above the above because it couldn't happen.
No female space marines.
No female primarch.


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## Baltar

I think there is some confusion here...

Space marines and Primarchs are too very very different things.

A space marine is essentially a normal human, with an added implant, which them makes them grow into a space marine. It is NOT a clone in any way at all. It still remains more or less, other than in size, exactly the same physical looks as the person did before. If the person given the gland looks nothing like their primarch, then that space marine wont look anything like their primarch.

Primarchs, also, are not 'clones' WHATSOEVER. A clone would suggest the emperor has copied himself. This is not the case. The emperor simply took DNA from hid body, and created 20 beings from it.

Just because the DNA was taken from his body, technically, would not at all suggest they would be anything at all like him, as he could select exactly what he wanted.

He made them all to be exactly as they were. If he wanted a female primarch, there is no reason it couldnt have happened.

Female space marines however - no


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## Red Geist

I say there should be a modelling contest to create a female primarch if we ever end this debate. This talk is making me curious...


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## Cards344

Well their are 2 Space Marine chapters we know nothing about. Maybe one of their Primarchs was female and that was why all records where destroyed. To cover up that failure or succes.


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## Baltar

There is much speculation about the two unknown primarchs. One thing that is guaranteed is that neither of them has anything to do with the Grey Knights (which I keep hearing one of them must be - load of rubbish).

One of them (for those who have read HH series) is likely to be the primarch that Horus disturbed during his creation by smashing the front of his growth chamber. (one that vanished).


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## countchocula86

I just have a question about the creation of the Primarchs, and just how this would prevent a female ones? Simply because they are 'clones' of the Emperor? Ive also heard 'testosterone treatment' tosses around, and so Im just wondering if an abbreviated creation mechanism can be provided?


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## Red Geist

There are not many gender based hormones in SM genetic enhancement. The progenoid glands are two kidney sized glands located on either side of the middle of the spine, meant as a second pituitary gland, but only regulating the implants themselves and storing the chemical coding of the implants for later use after the Marine's death. Primarchs are not really clones, none of them look like each other. They were grown in pods/machines/tubes/etc.

Males were easier to create than females because the Emperor used his DNA as a template, which was already male. For female primarchs, he would need a woman's DNA as a base. Once a gender was selected, he could build thier appearence from scratch afterwords. I think they did this in Jurassic Park.


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## Camaris

Why Primarchs are male instead of female is simple.
Primarch are meant to be super soldiers. Just like space marines.
Males are superior to women when it comes to strength, speed and stamina. (Have a look at any sport event and compare male and female stats.)
If you want to create the greatest warriors the galaxy has ever known you don't start from a less-then-optimal starting point.
You want to nurture and have babies? Create women.
You want to crush, kill and destroy (or defend)? Create men.

That's why the primarchs are male.


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## Ragnar_Burmane

Also, without wanting to be sexist women aren't as strong as men. They can't run as fast, swim as fast, throw as far, jump as far..... World records in all the above do the talking


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## lawrence96

what about all the reports and such of women flipping cars to get to their children when trapped underneath cars?

i know my mum once threw heavy pallets one-handed when a load fell on my dad, if the emporer could genetically engineer SM to live virtually forever, be super strong, super fast ect. then surely he could engineer women to "believe" that their children are in danger from those xenos/heretical gits thus making the women go mad and literally rip a daemons nads off?


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## Baltar

I think we are also forgetting one major point here. GW games and their back stories are pretty much totally created by men.

Most of the GW novels and stories were written by men.

Almost every single main character/hero is male.

There wouldnt be a female primarch...


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## Ragnar_Burmane

You have a curiously valid point there....

Women genetically engineered to see everyone as a threat to the family... It could work


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## Red Geist

Stats have mostly nothing to do with it. The Primarchs could have just as easily been androids then clones (I thought they were a combo of the two before I actually looked it up).

I think it was mostly the decision of GW to include no female primarchs. They either ran out of slots for Primarchs before choosing a female primarch or they believed that only one woman and nineteen men leading the legions would be seen as sexist. I've seen them use just as bad judgement.

I would think the Emperor would not include the reproductive system in the Primarchs. Such matters would distract them from thier duties. This means that a female primarch would not experience most of the things normal women do. They are warriors genetically built from scratch, designed to lead the Space Marines and vanquish the enemies of the First Crusade.

I only want a Female Primarch because Battle Angel Alita would make a cool Primarch


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## Baltar

Space Marines are so mentally indoctrinated, conditioned, and generally of the genetic disposition, that despite the fact they DO have reproductive organs, they would never, ever feel the urge to use them. Ever. In the same way a space marine never has either the mental or physical disposition to feel fear.

Space marines are simply not subject to any of these petty weaknesses that humans are.


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## Casual_T

They probably did it form a marketing standpoint. Most of the people who play this game are men and I know a lot of men who wouldn't want their legion to be made up of women. That is why the sisters were created, The Ecclesiarchy (sp?) is forbidden to have MEN at arms... so they used women. If you want women space marines play sisters, if you want men space marines, play space marines. Yes you do have to make sacrifices to play women space marines... Oh well.


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## Red Geist

True, Female Space Marines are impossible, and there never will be a Female Primarch. It didn't happen, but it could have.

Say a Female Primarch was created, what would her abilities/weapons be?


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## LeeHarvey

According to GW's established fluff (I can't remember were I read it, I'll look when I get home) The extra organs and Zygotes used to create a Space Marine are coded to male DNA so it is an impossibility for them to make female Space Marines/Primarchs.


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## Haraldrr

Red Geist said:


> Say a Female Primarch was created, what would her abilities/weapons be?


Boltgun jubblies:laugh:


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## comrade

Hmm... maybe.. (personal Thought, not trying ot be sexist here)

In the age of strife Terra was wracked by wars, and battlezones, he used Techno-Barbarians in a variant of Power Armor which enhanced the strength of the user, thus All (or almost all mind you) were me due to the simple known fact of men are stronger then women generally.

Going ev en farther, lets say due to constant warfare, Terra is underpopulated, how do you fix that, produce offspring, now do you want your Offspring producers being Killed off in war? no its a bad technical move on your part.

Going even farther, once The Emperor moved off and went into The crusades, his Armies still consisted of the Techno Barbarians. Thus when he Created his Primarily, he saw no reason to create females, for throughout all of his experience he knows that men, are better then Women in Warfare. Thus creating 20 MALE Primarchs.

Also, on another point. There is no ACLU in 40k. and if there was, The =][= would have eliminated them from existence for questioning the will of the emperor. Thus, the Emperor could be sexist if he wanted to, he the Emperor for gods sake.

But I think that the Emperor, with all his combat Know how created all his Primarchs to be male, and would have never created a Female Primarch. Too much risk, He couldn't change completely how they thought, thus the Horus Heresy.

And on the Side point, SMs can't create Offspring. Their Modifications remove that ability, thus the idea of having Male and Female SM offspring is invalid. According to fluff at least.


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## Cards344

For somereason I dont think that female Primarchs or Female Space Marines are an impossability. We have seen how well SIsters of Battle and Sisters of Silence can fight. And their was a female Chaos Space Marine in the Book Storm Of Iron who killed an Aspiring Champion and then became an avatar of Khorn after killing and Imperial Fists Librarion.


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## BenedictWolfe

Fenrakk101 said:


> All the SMs, CSMs, and even new SM recruits are all male. It's probably because the Emporer is male, and so his clones were, and his clone's clones were(SMs). This probably started a tradition that went down through the new recruits and such.


No: When the Emperor first began engineering genes to create super soldiers, he only did so on men (most soldiers being males). After the Emperor was entombed, the Imperium only had the gene-seed of the Adeptus Astartes to replicate and no technology with which to create brand new gene-seed. Since only male compatible gene-seed exists, only men (well, boys) can be turned into Space Marines.



Cards344 said:


> For somereason I dont think that female Primarchs or Female Space Marines are an impossability. We have seen how well SIsters of Battle and Sisters of Silence can fight. And their was a female Chaos Space Marine in the Book Storm Of Iron who killed an Aspiring Champion and then became an avatar of Khorn after killing and Imperial Fists Librarion.


She was an Imperial Guardswoman, not a Space Marine. She was seduced by a suit of daemonic armour and put it on, at which point it took control.
But that entire yarn was ridiculous and the book would have been tons better without it.


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## Celyis

Alicia Dominica may have been a different model of the Gene Seed based upon what happened to her on Terra (which to this point is still unknown) plus her psyical prowess and actual body rivaled that of a Space Marine, but the fact of the matter is, while probable, all evidence given points it in different directions.

Emperor is a guy, all the gene seeds are male. The biggest counter to the argument of course is how easily you could change the XY to XX genetically especially with the MASSIVE modifications that came to the rest of the Primarchs, I mean, look at Sangunius, he has... WINGS.... The emperor didn't have wings. Konrad Kraze, it really is just a shoe in. Though ruling out that one or both were female is heresy in and of itself saying that the God Emperor CAN'T do something.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

to settle the point it has been said in one of the HH novels and in the index astartes that the Emperor created 20 primarchs, a BROTHERHOOD of warriors to lead his legions of space marines into battle against the enemies of mankind.

on a side note men are naturally built and geared towards war. they are stronger, faster, and as far as ive seen have a better handle on simple tactics. who would you want to save you on the battlefield if you were hurt, a big hairy sob who could carry you easily and shoot at the same time or a woman (and im not being sexist cause this is true) who weighs 50+ pounds less then you and has to carry you who is most likely way over 200 pounds with gear and all? my choice is the hairy sob. 

although women have a higher pain tolerance then men and are far more sneaky and underhanded in their battle tactics (im talking to you eldar and dark eldar players i have played, alll were women) men are just better suited, end of story. id rather follow a male primarch such as Dorn or Angron who was unbelievably huge and imposing and who could whip me into a battle frenzy then a woman primarch who would naturally be smaller than those two. it just doesnt seem right.


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## countchocula86

Ahem, just as a general statement to the people posting in this thread. Just because you say you arent being sexist doesnt make in true....




And also, its a world meant to fuel ones imagination. Anything is possible. Anything.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

ok i was being sexist but it still is true. if there was a female primarch i doubt she would look all that feminine due to her...ehem enhancements. OR she would be the hottest thing to ever hit the universe, i like this one better, and still be able to kick angron's arse.


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## Son of mortarion

countchocula86 said:


> Ahem, just as a general statement to the people posting in this thread. Just because you say you arent being sexist doesnt make in true....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also, its a world meant to fuel ones imagination. Anything is possible. Anything.


no, it is not sexist to state that there are fundamental differences, both biological and physical between men and women, it is only sexist when the statement is used to justify either being inferior. Stating that men are better at something is different, as it is not a matter of saying men are better, period, but better at a particular task.

You certainly can use your imagination, but within limits, if you added steampunk elements, it would no longer be warhammer 40k, but the "other" wargame. Part of what makes 4ok what it is it the limits, such as no female space marines or no male sisters of battle, no intelligent orks, etc.
The imagination argument seems to be used to justify making alterations that fundamentally alter the game, instead of enhancing it. 

If you are going to make fundamental changes, I think that it should be total, and you should not call the result warhammer 40k, because it isn't. It might be fun however, because the basic rules are great to use for exploring other concepts, such as steampunk, instead of gothic fantasy/sci-fi


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## Baltar

There are no female primarchs, no female space marines. The end.


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## Son of mortarion

The Real Sanguinius said:


> There are no female primarchs, no female space marines. The end.


definitely agreed.


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## Lioneljohnson510

it dosent seem sexist because the emperor created them from his own gene seed so they would pretty much have to be men


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## col44mag

I have a question. If SM's are from are genetic representations what about the SoB's? Are they all orphans or something?and if so why are there so many unwanted female babies with white hair?


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## Son of mortarion

col44mag said:


> I have a question. If SM's are from are genetic representations what about the SoB's? Are they all orphans or something?and if so why are there so many unwanted female babies with white hair?


Sisters of battle are either orphans, or the daughters of imperial nobility, they are taught at progenium facilities like storm troopers and commisars. as for the hair, it is dyed, as a part of the particular order they belong to.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

Right. I recognize that I'm not adding much to the central debate here, but there are several points scattered throughout the thread that I'm pedantic enough to feel compelled to correct. Here goes...



The Real Sanguinius said:


> It still remains more or less, other than in size, exactly the same physical looks as the person did before. If the person given the gland looks nothing like their primarch, then that space marine wont look anything like their primarch.


Not so. The Raven Guard gradually develop Corax's ash-white skin and black hair as they age, I'm fairly certain that Sallies get darker, and every named Blood Angel that I know of has blonde hair, though that may just be because it's a dominant trait on Baal.



lawrence96 said:


> what about all the reports and such of women flipping cars to get to their children when trapped underneath cars?
> 
> i know my mum once threw heavy pallets one-handed when a load fell on my dad, if the emporer could genetically engineer SM to live virtually forever, be super strong, super fast ect. then surely he could engineer women to "believe" that their children are in danger from those xenos/heretical gits thus making the women go mad and literally rip a daemons nads off?


That's all because of adrenaline, which affects men in the same way. You just don't hear about it as much because it's more impressive when a hundred and thirty pound woman lifts the back end of a car.



The Real Sanguinius said:


> Space Marines are so mentally indoctrinated, conditioned, and generally of the genetic disposition, that despite the fact they DO have reproductive organs, they would never, ever feel the urge to use them. Ever. In the same way a space marine never has either the mental or physical disposition to feel fear.
> 
> Space marines are simply not subject to any of these petty weaknesses that humans are.


Horus Heresy, anybody? They're not supposed to be subject to human weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they aren't. Fulgrim's doubtless gotten more use out of his "reproductive organs" than Don Juan, Casanova and Johnny Depp all rolled into one.



Son of mortarion said:


> ... no intelligent orks...


I'm not sure what Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka would have to say on that subject, and Mekboyz can be pretty clever - if you allow for a very loose definition of the word. Still, they're certainly exceptions to the rule, I'll give you that.

Sorry for being such an obsessive prig; I just don't like to see inaccurate information circulated (well, not in most circumstances, anyway...). For the sake of keeping the thread at least marginally on topic, I'll also say that I'm quite sure it's been officially established that the implants required to make a human into a Space Marine are incompatible with female physiology, though I couldn't tell you where.

[EDIT: Minor additions.]


----------



## Baltar

I think the thing about Blood Angels all developing blonde hair may be incorrect. I am willing to count is as incorrect unless someone is willing to cite some canon...

because I have read novels involving blood angels with dark hair, and have seen much artwork also depicting blood angels with dark hair.


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## Son of mortarion

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think the thing about Blood Angels all developing blonde hair may be incorrect. I am willing to count is as incorrect unless someone is willing to cite some canon...
> 
> because I have read novels involving blood angels with dark hair, and have seen much artwork also depicting blood angels with dark hair.


the index astartes article on blood angels says that the process that creates blood angels takes a native of Baal (hideous normally, due to radiation and harsh environment) and while undergoing the change to a blood angel, those defects are corrected, creating a warrior that is a physically beautiful specimen, in the image of their primarch. This can be taken to mean blonde haired and blue eyed, but is more likely to mean free of blemishes, the proportions are improved, hair is healthy, etc.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius

I don't recall seeing or reading anything about dark haired Blood Angels, but as mentioned, one could speculate that blonde hair may just be a dominant trait on Baal or something. In any case, I'll give it to you. The Raven Guard I'm certain of though, and I'm around 95% sure about the Salamanders as well, so my point still stands.

[EDIT: I seem to have been ninja'd. Seems to happen to me rather a lot, actually. C'est la vie...]


----------



## Baltar

The front cover of the new Blood Angels novel, for a start, as the first of a few that comes to mind, features a Blood Angels seargeant with long black hair.

You are correct about Salamanders - However, I wouldnt say that they changed appearence after they become a marine (other than proportions, like musculature etc). I would say rather that the world from which they select their candidates simply has a climiate which means that all of the inhabitants are naturally dark skinned. Whichs fits with Salamanders canon too, seeing as apparently they come from a very hot world.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

to correct something sanguinius does not have blonde hair its black. read the HH novels and when it describes him he has black hair. sorry just nitpicking


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## Baltar

Sanguinius has blonde hair. Even in the HH novels.

In fact, one of his most stereotypical recognised features is that he has golden hair.

More to the point, the official artwork published by GW portraying Sanguinius (my avatar) shows him with blonde hair also.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

> His long black hair was pressed down by the weight of the shawl of gold chainhe wore across his head. The edges of it framed his solemn features. He had marked his cheeks with grey ash in mourning.


this is in Horus Rising pg. 334. im not trying to put you down or anything but once again due to GW ambiguity he has been stated having long black hair while being drawn with blonde.


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## Baltar

I have read the book, but I honestly don't remember that description. But now you have pointed it out I will have to look it up as Im very interested. Especially as I've always taken it for granted that Sanguinius had blonde hair.


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## Son of mortarion

If you look yo bloodquest, both dante and mephiston have black hairwhich seems to indicate that Sanguinius is rightm that it is more common for them to have black hair,

On a side note, I have noyiced that the special characters, especially those that are chapter masters, seem to physically resemble their primarchs more than that reat of the chapter.


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## Baltar

I am pretty sure mephiston does not have black hair, and I have not heard dante given the description of having black hair after reading the blood angels omnibus and red fury.

There seems to be some definate ambiguity here.

I have to say, this is the only time I've ever heard Sanguinius described as having black hair, and every single depiction in artwork (there are many) I have ever seen of him, has been him with blonde hair. The same applies to mephiston.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i was under the impression Dante had white hair just cause he was so old.


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## Son of mortarion

both were drawn with black hair


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

oh i see. i think GW needs to work on keeping the artwork and the books on the same page. it would clear up a lot. just a question did Guilliman have white hair or blonde? cuz i've heard both


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## Baltar

Son of mortarion said:


> both were drawn with black hair


Where have you seen either mephiston or sanguinius drawn with black hair?

Because I have seen a few images with blonde, and the Heavy Metal mephiston model also has blonde hair.

As for Guilleman, I am not sure, as there has been nothing written directly describing him that I remember, and GW didnt release any artwork of him that Ive seen for the HH books. I think there may be a picture of him somewhere in the HH card game, but I havnt seen it. The only description of him I remember is a description of him in stasis, dead, in the ultramarines omnibus, but I dont remember any mention of the hair.

Although, I do remember that Uriel Ventris, the Ultramarines captain, has black hair, and his seargent Pasanius, has blonde hair.


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## MajorChaos

Well you do have women in the imperal guard, i guess the sm thought the emporer was male hence his "angels" had to be as well i don't see any point in haven a female, no offence its just traditions, but that would be neat if there was a women but wouldn't make any sence... the sm's where trying to take the look of the emperor...


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## Son of mortarion

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Where have you seen either mephiston or sanguinius drawn with black hair?
> 
> Because I have seen a few images with blonde, and the Heavy Metal mephiston model also has blonde hair.
> 
> As for Guilleman, I am not sure, as there has been nothing written directly describing him that I remember, and GW didnt release any artwork of him that Ive seen for the HH books. I think there may be a picture of him somewhere in the HH card game, but I havnt seen it. The only description of him I remember is a description of him in stasis, dead, in the ultramarines omnibus, but I dont remember any mention of the hair.
> 
> Although, I do remember that Uriel Ventris, the Ultramarines captain, has black hair, and his seargent Pasanius, has blonde hair.


It was in bloodquest, when the exiles are being questioned. both had black haie and a very "vampire' look to them, it might havew been a stylistic thing, bu I think Blackapostle is right on, that Gw needs to have more cosistency between the 'eavy metal paint, the descriptions, and warhammer monthly illustrations.
The problem with white/blonde hair, is platinum blonde, which can be nearly indistinguishable from white.


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## Baltar

I dunno about the blonde hair, I just remember that his seargeant was described as blonde. Although I dont think the Ultramarines do conform to any specific type of cast, or physical trait.

They are too boring and generic for such class or any sort of distinction.

May aswell not even bother taking their helmets off tbf.


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## Farseer Beltiac

I always took Sanguinius to be a blondie......


----------



## Lord Lucius

...lol...!


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## Baltar

He is a blondie.

Trust me.


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## Exitus_10

Thats BS all the Primarchs are white....racist man...except for a few others


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## MarqFJA87

Discussion going off-topic, people.

My thoughts on the main subject:

All known Primarchs are male; the two lost Primarchs are by convention assumed to be male, too, but that still doesn't rule out the alternate possibility. Also, someone around here mentioned "brotherhood"... Sadly, it's an old established convention in the English language to use male-gender nouns and pronouns when the gender of the subject is ambiguous (Take the "Brotherhood of Nod" from Command & Conquer, whose membership includes men _*and*_ women); had this been any other language that possessed gender-neutral alternatives, things could've been quite different. BTW, the word "brotherhood" itself does have gender-neutral definitions.

The current gene-seed is male-compatible only. As of yet, there's no Emperor - or at least someone(s) with the Emperor's intelligence - to create any new kind of gene-seed, as all pertinent knowledge was lost in the vast destruction wrought by the Siege of Terra.

Thus, my conclusion is that while it's *possible* to create female-compatible gene-seed, the probability of that happening is so low, it might as well _be_ non-existent - not that _that_ is going to stop us, anyway. 

BTW, I think I found a whole new can of worms spawned by the concept: The possibility of totally new gene-seed types that capitalize on the two (or three... maybe make it four... alright, *FIVE!!!*) things that most fundamentally differentiate men from women. Hint: Take the first thing out, and any kids you would have will eventually die unless you get a substitute from the store; take the second thing out, and you won't have to worry about kids ever again.


----------



## Major Maxillary

no female space marines because the black carapace is incompatible with the X chromosome. or at least that's the explanation last I heard, and admittedly that was back when the chaos gods weren't friends AND ALWAYS HAD BEEN.

I dunno GW seems to have a minitrue so who knows the lost primarch might be the martyred lady or something..

now, female chaos marines is entirely possible. what with Slaanesh being big on sex change.


----------



## MarqFJA87

As I said, current fluff's gene-seed is male genome-coded - and if anyone can actually _attempt_ to alter that part, it would be the Emperor, since he's the one that designed them in the first place.

Slaneesh... I won't argue with that one. :grin: However, I think that would be limited to those that earn enough favour from him/her/it/whatever-pronoun.


----------



## Pauly55

Scientifically, A female primarch (matriarch?) would have been possible to create. The only genetic difference between a man and a woman is that women have XX sex chromosomes, and men have XY. It would have been a simple matter to copy his x chromosome and not include the Y to make a female primarch. Not to mention that biology has probably advanced and the emperor can do what ever he damn well pleases when it comes to making things.

As for female space marines: If we had the technology to make the added glands interface with male specimens, it would be very easy to alter the gene-seeds to be able to interface with females. Basically as it stands now, It couldn't happen, but if they have the technology to make male super warriors, then they could EASILY develop it for female super warriors. 

@ people who don't think females can be as good warriors as males in the scope of 40k: I ask you to refer to the Callidus Assassin. S:4 T:4 Gender:F

I would love to see someone model female space marines.


----------



## Zooey72

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


Real world answer - same reason women are not allowed in combat positions. They are not as physically able (in the areas that count for combat) than men are. Don't like it - take it up with god... the emperor... or whoever made the rules. This is not opinion, it is fact.

As far as the 40k universe goes. Astares are masculine, making a female primarch ruins the image and destroys the genre of the marines.


----------



## Lord of Rebirth

The Emperor would have XY DNA since he is male and thusly to turn it into XX to make a female you would need to add a section of DNA and where would that come from?


----------



## Baltar

OMG

I have no words for some of the seriously spurious talk of genetics going on here.

If some of us are going to add (or attempt) to this discussion, then I think they will perhaps need to do a little reading up first...


----------



## Pauly55

lord of rebirth said:


> The Emperor would have XY DNA since he is male and thusly to turn it into XX to make a female you would need to add a section of DNA and where would that come from?


You could just duplicate his single X chromosome. We already have the technology to do this. It could cause bad recessive traits on the chromosome come up under normal circumstances, but this is the emperor of mankind here, I'm pretty sure all his traits, recessive or not, are essentially perfect.

It has baffled me as to why they haven't cloned the Emperor. Probably because the Emperor wants to stay in power.


----------



## Baltar

Remember, duplicating his X chromosome is like cloning it.

THAT ISNT WHAT THE EMPEROR DID TO MAKE PRIMARCHS

They arent him. They arent his clones. They DO have some of his genes, but thats all... The same genetic disposition a child is to their father. They dont have the 'same' chromoshome, but they share genes within it.

Knowing this, it does not matter that he has XY chromosomes, as he wouldnt use whole chromosomes from his own cells, he would use genetic material taken from gametes (his sperm), which contain BOTH X and Y chromosomes which are different from his own... (as they create offspring)...

If he can create a man, he can create a woman.

End.


----------



## scolatae

Cards344 said:


> Well their are 2 Space Marine chapters we know nothing about. Maybe one of their Primarchs was female and that was why all records where destroyed. To cover up that failure or succes.


I would just like to point out that THERE IS A 900 MARINE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CHAPTER AND A LEGION (anvantage to the legion).:angry:


----------



## Baltar

scolatae said:


> I would just like to point out that THERE IS A 900 MARINE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CHAPTER AND A LEGION (anvantage to the legion).:angry:


WRONG

There is a 9000 marine difference between a chapter and a legion. Advantage to the legion...

Think you made a typo... :mrgreen:


----------



## Pauly55

The Real Sanguinius said:


> They DO have some of his genes, but thats all... The same genetic disposition a child is to their father. They dont have the 'same' chromoshome, but they share genes within it.



Right, but this brings up another question: If the primarchs are not genetically identical to the Emperor, then where did they get the rest of their genetic information? Either there is a primarch mother out there, or the emperor tweaked the genetic codes of the primarchs by making mutations. I'm leaning to the latter, given the wings of sanguinius, but it's fun to speculate that there is a mother of the imperium out there.


----------



## Baltar

Pauly55 said:


> Right, but this brings up another question: If the primarchs are not genetically identical to the Emperor, then where did they get the rest of their genetic information? Either there is a primarch mother out there, or the emperor tweaked the genetic codes of the primarchs by making mutations. I'm leaning to the latter, given the wings of sanguinius, but it's fun to speculate that there is a mother of the imperium out there.


This is a good question. However, a slight background in genetics would have answered it...

The genetic material found within the gametes of the emperor (his sperm not his cells) would contain the same genetic material the emperor possessed in his cells, except that it would be rearranged so that the resulting DNA chromosomes were actually different. However, they wouldnt be incomplete... there would be enough to make a new being which had the same DNA all taken from the emperor, simply rearranged so that the resulting person was totally different. This can also account for traits like wings etc, because the emperor may pass those genes on to his gametes (sperm) without them being active traits within his own cells (he may have the dna, but the genes may be dormant). Or, genetic traits such as those (like wings) may come from resultant rearrangement of the emperors dna to make new genes. OR it may not have been random rearrangement, he may have calculated the necessary rearrangement of his own DNA to form the required genes within the chromosome to create a progeny with wings (or other traits)...

However, he would have plenty of his own DNA taken from him to make many different primarchs, all different to him (and each other), all with unique traits... without ever having to get DNA from anywhere else...

Hence the miracle of genetics.

EDIT: and to add to that, before anyone points out, he would have had to use material taken from more than one gamete to create a whole being, as one gamete only contains half. Not a problem for someone so advanced as the emperor Im sure....


----------



## scolatae

The Real Sanguinius said:


> WRONG
> 
> There is a 9000 marine difference between a chapter and a legion. Advantage to the legion...
> 
> Think you made a typo... :mrgreen:


Yeah woops.


----------



## Pauly55

That doesn't answer the question

In order for a trait such as wings or even a more innocuous trait such as Russ's teeth to be in a gamete, the trait would have to be present on one of his chromosomes. Normal humans don't have anything close to being able to make wings by simple gamete creation. This type of stuff would have to be created by random mutations, and the chances of those making fully formed angel wings is slim to say the least.

I understand that you can get plenty of variation by genetic recombination when the gametes are formed, and this allows the primarchs to not be clones. But I think its a stretch to assume that you can get wings on offspring by simple recombination. If it was that easy, there would be more primarchs with wings. This means one of two things, either he got genetic information from something else, like an albatross, or he specifically engineered these mutations by swapping out bases.

Which did he do?


----------



## Justicar Auarilius

O this is easy...

Ok so think about this tactical situation

(At a all femal space marine chapter)

"Sound the alarm, tyranids sighted on the Surface of Caverlia, all Space Marines to the armoury and drop pods weve got to save this planet" - Admiral of Ship

(The Femal space Marines get to the armory, check the weapons, grenades and such everythings good. They put on their armor and then.....)

"OH MY GOD!!! THe left pauldron of my armor doesnt match the right one, i cant fight alien creatures in this - Member of 1st squad

"O honey you look fine, is this because that guardsmen didnt comment on how good you looked when you took off your helmet...?" - Other member of 1st squad

"no...its just (sigh) its that time of the month and i need some 'me time'. How come we always have to fight aliens, i mean i never have time to go shopping for new AP rounds for my bolter, and i was TOTALLY gonna bedazzle my chainsword after the Thetaris campaign, but its like doesnt anyone love me."

(After this goes on for about 6-7 hours another announcement comes over the intercom)

"Caverlia is lost to the tyranids....thanks alot Adeptus Sluts" - Admiral


----------



## Baltar

Pauly55 said:


> That doesn't answer the question
> 
> In order for a trait such as wings or even a more innocuous trait such as Russ's teeth to be in a gamete, the trait would have to be present on one of his chromosomes. Normal humans don't have anything close to being able to make wings by simple gamete creation. This type of stuff would have to be created by random mutations, and the chances of those making fully formed angel wings is slim to say the least.
> 
> I understand that you can get plenty of variation by genetic recombination when the gametes are formed, and this allows the primarchs to not be clones. But I think its a stretch to assume that you can get wings on offspring by simple recombination. If it was that easy, there would be more primarchs with wings. This means one of two things, either he got genetic information from something else, like an albatross, or he specifically engineered these mutations by swapping out bases.
> 
> Which did he do?


I agree the chances of such a complex trait such as wings being formed from recombination are so remote that they may as well be impossible, however, assuming the emperor genetically engineered and designed the primarchs to be exactly as they were made, then we can only assume that their DNA structure was also designed to be the way it was (logically). So it must be assumed then that these traits were intentionally added, and the only way I can see such a thing being done is through forceful manipulation of the chromosomes by swapping out genes and bases.

Which, one could argue that while the emperor may have literally taken the genes from his own gametes or cells, if he rearranged the bases to form completely new traits, then in some ways the primarchs do not at all share those genes with the emperor.

However, it could also be that the emperor does contain the genes necessary to create such a trait as wings, but it may be recessive and he simply forced this trait to be created when producing the primarchs.


----------



## Micklez

If were going on about Sanguinius wings then it should be noted that Index Astaries says this was the result of Baal's toxic atmosphere (if i remember correctally, its been a while since i read the article)


----------



## Primarch Lord CAG

he's a Freak! and should have been struck down on sight!


----------



## Son of mortarion

Pauly55 said:


> That doesn't answer the question
> 
> In order for a trait such as wings or even a more innocuous trait such as Russ's teeth to be in a gamete, the trait would have to be present on one of his chromosomes. Normal humans don't have anything close to being able to make wings by simple gamete creation. This type of stuff would have to be created by random mutations, and the chances of those making fully formed angel wings is slim to say the least.
> 
> I understand that you can get plenty of variation by genetic recombination when the gametes are formed, and this allows the primarchs to not be clones. But I think its a stretch to assume that you can get wings on offspring by simple recombination. If it was that easy, there would be more primarchs with wings. This means one of two things, either he got genetic information from something else, like an albatross, or he specifically engineered these mutations by swapping out bases.
> 
> Which did he do?


we do have the genes for these traits, in fact, we have genes for every trait possessed by vertebrate life originating on earth. most 90%) are dormant, approximately9.9% are genes for things like lungs, hair skin, and are possessed by nearly all mammals, the .1% that is left are the genes that make us specifically human, and those that make us the individuals that we are.


----------



## War_pig18

Uhm...did anyone think of the fact that in the womb(thanks to dna or not)we are all....'gasp' female...its actually a hormone produced in the womb that causes the embryos sexy to change.....

There also 2 missing primarches,who said 1 or both weren't female( the hormones were left out).........



P.s.Maybe that's why they were lost,no map...lol


----------



## Baltar

Yes, but this is irrelevant for an artificially grown embrio


----------



## Pauly55

Son of mortarion said:


> we do have the genes for these traits, in fact, we have genes for every trait possessed by vertebrate life originating on earth. most 90%) are dormant, approximately9.9% are genes for things like lungs, hair skin, and are possessed by nearly all mammals, the .1% that is left are the genes that make us specifically human, and those that make us the individuals that we are.


The two halves of your statement are non sequiter.

We do NOT have the genes for every vertebrate life form on earth. We merely share a large amount (90% or whatever it is, like you said). No where in our (human) genome are coding regions for wings.

If we had genes for wings, we would have wings. Its simple really. If a bird has its genetic code altered via mutation so that it no longer develops wings, then _by definition_ it no longer has the genes to create wings. The bird may, however, have a region that could easily be turned back into a region which codes for wings by another mutation.


----------



## Talonmaster Raptoris

wow.:shok::shok::shok: this is an intense argument, i was just wondering at the time about why, i didn't think complicated debates of genetics would arise. but continue for it amuses me:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Creon

Pauly55 said:


> The two halves of your statement are non sequiter.
> 
> We do NOT have the genes for every vertebrate life form on earth. We merely share a large amount (90% or whatever it is, like you said). No where in our (human) genome are coding regions for wings.
> 
> If we had genes for wings, we would have wings. Its simple really. If a bird has its genetic code altered via mutation so that it no longer develops wings, then _by definition_ it no longer has the genes to create wings. The bird may, however, have a region that could easily be turned back into a region which codes for wings by another mutation.



From what I understand of genetics, both statements above are correct. We do probably have the genes to produce wings. However, those codes are "turned off" as are a majority of the sequences we don't use. They've spliced chickens to "activate" the genes for teeth. They get chickens with teeth. They didn't "Add" anything to produce teeth, we have no idea why most genes do what they do. But we can tell when a sequence is "on" or "off" and in general what it does. OTOH, producing "wings" requires a MASSIVE set of interlocked genetic systems that, if activated, would produce a bird, not a human from the embryo.


----------



## Zondarian

Pauly55 said:


> If we had genes for wings, we would have wings.


While is almost certain we don't have coding for wings it as not as simple as if we have coding for something then the trait appears. We may have coding for a trait but without the correct Base Triplet at the beginning of the coding, it is simply left unread, called dormant genes or dormancy. As we have no known flying ancestry we are not going to have coding for wings and the like. However we do have dormant coding for almost all of our genetic history so somewhere in our genes their will be coding for gills and the such. If I remember correctly for a gene to be read you must have a base triplet of AUG coding for Methionine


----------



## KarlFranz40k

How about we quit the geno-argument and just face it that women are nine times out of ten smaller and dont develope muscles nearly as well as men do....having said that I know a couple who could beat me up, and I'm not a wee guy.

What about female Inquistitors? Are there many? Apart from the sisters of course? Having said that, which is there more of, Astartes or Sisters? I got a gut feeling the latter is in excess.....come on GW, make plastic SoB!!!


----------



## Creon

KarlFranz40k said:


> How about we quit the geno-argument and just face it that women are nine times out of ten smaller and dont develope muscles nearly as well as men do....having said that I know a couple who could beat me up, and I'm not a wee guy.
> 
> What about female Inquistitors? Are there many? Apart from the sisters of course? Having said that, which is there more of, Astartes or Sisters? I got a gut feeling the latter is in excess.....come on GW, make plastic SoB!!!


Looks like between 1/3 and 1/2 of inquisitors are female, if the the Dark Heresy RPG is any indication.


----------



## Inquisitor Einar

KarlFranz40k said:


> How about we quit the geno-argument and just face it that women are nine times out of ten smaller and dont develope muscles nearly as well as men do....having said that I know a couple who could beat me up, and I'm not a wee guy.
> 
> What about female Inquistitors? Are there many? Apart from the sisters of course? Having said that, which is there more of, Astartes or Sisters? I got a gut feeling the latter is in excess.....come on GW, make plastic SoB!!!


Well, for numbers on SoB vs SMs.. the SoB only have 6 orders, so with about 10000 sisters per orders, that's 60000 Adepta Sororitas, where as there's waaay many more space marine chapters, though they don't have more than 1000 each I believe. so.. 50/50?


----------



## vacantghost

I think, like others, if the emperor did manage to make female clones of himself with his own DNA the creations would be just deemed as mutants because what else would they be?


----------



## darkreever

Inquisitor Einar said:


> Well, for numbers on SoB vs SMs.. the SoB only have 6 orders, so with about 10000 sisters per orders, that's 60000 Adepta Sororitas, where as there's waaay many more space marine chapters, though they don't have more than 1000 each I believe. so.. 50/50?


Remember though, thats only the six orders majoris of the order militant for the adeptus sororitas. There are a number of minor orders, plus the different major and minor orders within the orders hospitaller, dialogous, and famulous. Though they might not all be completly devoted to war, all of them make up the sisters of battle. Then theres also the missions, comandery, and preceptory which can be active outside of an order. (Thank you witch hunter codex and lexicanum for the information you both contain...)

Theres likely a lot more in the adeptus sororitas than the adeptus astartes.


----------



## MyI)arkness

I didnt read the previous 10 pages, but imo female primarch could have been a good idea, because females are better at some army stuff than men, i can take few examples i remember from ww2 memuars written by some soldiers, it was not rare to point out female superiority in some stuff, when they were mentioned, for examle russian female snipers and female artillery batteries, the latter could shoot with better precision thus making the shots extremely deadly, also common female soldiers may not have enough strength for long battles and marches, but where they fight they fight with a very good morale...so creating female primarch with her legion(s) would probably work well as a supplementary force to marines.


----------



## nightfish

I dont think GW have been sexist although it would have been nice for the SoB to have a more front line role than the support role they are suppose to take. Eldar and Dark Eldar have a sizable female contingent, why can't the imperium.

Reading the last few pages about primarchs it seems like everyone here loves the argument - 'Well they aren't as strong as males'. Strength is of no importance, next time you get beat by anyone Eldar, come back to me with that one. 

Personally, I think a female primarch would be great. Might get more women into the hobby.


----------



## MyI)arkness

Well if we assume sob could be the representation of female "primarch" warriors, than maybe their "primarch" could have been some sort of saint?


----------



## your master

MyI)arkness said:


> I didnt read the previous 10 pages, but imo female primarch could have been a good idea, because females are better at some army stuff than men, i can take few examples i remember from ww2 memuars written by some soldiers, it was not rare to point out female superiority in some stuff, when they were mentioned, for examle russian female snipers and female artillery batteries, the latter could shoot with better precision thus making the shots extremely deadly, also common female soldiers may not have enough strength for long battles and marches, but where they fight they fight with a very good morale...so creating female primarch with her legion(s) would probably work well as a supplementary force to marines.


couldnt it just be that those females were good and not that females do it it better??? plus there is a female supplement to marine forces they are call SOB


----------



## Lord of Rebirth

your master said:


> couldnt it just be that those females were good and not that females do it it better???


+Rep for this cause it is so true. Neither sex is specifically better at anything than the other.


----------



## Ardias26

the threads posted here is perhaps the final, definitive proof that 40k players have never lost their virginity


----------



## Captain Galus

Claws back in kitty! RWEER! :laugh:


----------



## Arcane

darkreever said:


> Remember though, thats only the six orders majoris of the order militant for the adeptus sororitas. There are a number of minor orders, plus the different major and minor orders within the orders hospitaller, dialogous, and famulous. Though they might not all be completly devoted to war, all of them make up the sisters of battle. Then theres also the missions, comandery, and preceptory which can be active outside of an order. (Thank you witch hunter codex and lexicanum for the information you both contain...)
> 
> Theres likely a lot more in the adeptus sororitas than the adeptus astartes.


That is just bollocks. I get sick of people constantly saying, "There are more Inquisitors than Marines" And now we have people saying there are more SoB too. Look at the facts. 

Ultramarines
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Imperial Fists
White Scars
Iron Hands
Salamanders
Raven Guard
Angels of Vengeance
Astral Claws
Black Dragons
Black Templars
Blood Ravens
Crimson Fists
Deathwatch
Doom Eagles
Executioners
Fire Hawks
Flesh Tearers
Heralds of Vengeance
Howling Griffons
Knights of Order
Lamenters
Mantis Legion
Marines Errant
Marines Malevolent
Raptors
Relictor
Scythes of the Emperor
Sons of Deliverance
Sons of Guilliman
Soul Drinkers 
Sons of Medax
Scions of Dorn
Steel Cobras
Storm Dragons
Storm Lords
Subjugators
Vultures
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
Saints Chapter
Hydra brothers

You are telling me now that with ALL those chapters that the Sisters of Battle, (Thats just SoB, meaning units with the Adeptus Sororitas rule) number more than that with only 6 major orders?

Cmon...


----------



## darkreever

Again, the adeptus sororitas extend to more than just the six major orders of the order militant. Some of their sections may carry out duties that place war second, but that does not make them any less a part of the adeptus sororitas. (Seeing as you generally can't play as the other sections of the adeptus sororitas, you can't exactly say they do or do not have the adeptus sororitas rule.)

And again, there are also minor orders within the order militant; it does not just stop at the six main orders. So like I said, there are very likely more of the adeptus sororitas than adeptus astartes. (Whats this, there are more inquisitors than space marines crap? I really doubt such a thing is even remotely true; maybe there are more inquisitors plus their respective retinues, but not inquisitors alone.)


----------



## Creon

Remember, the Crews of the Black Ships are Sisters of Battle. That puts a lot of them out in the field.

As to the insults, my wife says Nyahhh to you all.  Now i'm going back to play with my toys, as she says.


----------



## Arcane

While I agree that there are surely many more SoB than just the 6 in the orders, even if there were twice as many, three times as many, even six times as many, they still wouldn't have as many as all those Chapters (if each had 1000 more or less, with some having many more). That is not even counting the Grey Knights (Space Marines still, though not Adeptus Astartes) or the Chapters not mentioned in the Codex which are assuredly as numeral as the SoB not mentioned in the respective Codex. 

Also, most of those SoB you speak of who's jobs do not include battle would be considered part of the Adeptus Ministorum and not the Adeptus Sororitas. I believe aswell that the entire Adeptus Sororitas _is_ a militant order since they are the militant order of the Ecclesiarchy. Sure some of them sweep the floor and clean the privy but they are still SoB and ready for battle within an order.



Creon said:


> Remember, the Crews of the Black Ships are Sisters of Battle. That puts a lot of them out in the field.


You mean the Adeptus Astra Telepathica? They would not be Adeptus Sororitas, nor would the Sisters of Silence.

And what of the Chapter serfs who crew the Space Marine Fleet?


----------



## Lord of Rebirth

Are not there supposed to be about 1000 chapters of about 1000 marines each? That would give you roughly a million marines. Also from what I have read the 6 "main" orders of the sisters were just the first 6 orders founded thousands of years ago and since then many orders have been founded all over in many different forms from small convents on tiny colony worlds to major orders on hive worlds.

While I'd say initially there sisters would be fewer in number but the "current" time line though are probably at least a couple hundred million.


----------



## MyI)arkness

your master said:


> couldnt it just be that those females were good and not that females do it it better??? plus there is a female supplement to marine forces they are call SOB


Well statisticaly, no


----------



## Micklez

Creon said:


> Remember, the Crews of the Black Ships are Sisters of Battle. That puts a lot of them out in the field.





Arcane said:


> You mean the Adeptus Astra Telepathica?


I believe that he was more refering to those that guard the prisoners in the ships, not who crew them. In Fire and Faith it describes how Dione of the Order of the Argent Shroud and her sisters were guarding Vaun before he was transfered to Miriya's squad. If this is the case then i believe that this isnt pernament, however i havnt found any fluff for or against it. Sisters dont really seem all that keen on jailor duty, prefering just to execute the heretics rather then let they live.


----------



## Arcane

lord of rebirth said:


> While I'd say initially there sisters would be fewer in number but the "current" time line though are probably at least a couple hundred million.


That jump of logic doesn't seem to fit. Those were not the 6 founding orders. In actuality there was one founding order called the Daughters of the Emperor or rather Bride's of the Emperor as they became. The other orders came later after the Age of Aposty. 

"When Thor first took over, there were only 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor, but this quickly expanded to over 10,000 after the Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) was founded"

"Their Orders were later expanded to hold more than 15,000 Sisters, but their current standing places each Order with no more than 7,000 members"

In the beginning there were 4 orders, Martyred Lady, Valorous Heart, Ebon Chalice and the Argent Shroud. The rest were added later and are as follows. There are small missions of SoB *but* they still fall under one of these orders. 

Order of Our Martyred Lady
Order of the Valorous Heart
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Argent Shroud
Orders Hospitaller 
Order of the Eternal Candle
Order of Serenity
Order of the Cleansing Water
Order of the Torch
Orders Famulous
Order of the Key
Order of the Gate
Order of the Holy Seal
Order of the Sacred Coin
Orders Dialogous 
Order of the Holy Word
Order of the Quill 
Order of the Sacred Oath
Order of the Lexicon

So no, there are not more Adeptus Sororitas than Adeptus Astartes.


----------



## Creon

There must be! They're cheaper in points cost!

*the previous was humor. Please take it as such*


----------



## Arcane

Obviously it's cheaper at the door for ladies, otherwise none of the men will come and buy them drinks. 

/threadcompletelyderailedsorry


----------



## Boss Luwee

The same reason that today in America males are required to sign up for the draft on their 18th birthday, while females are not? 

So those of you state side write your congress and tell them to change the law to require females to sign up. Equal rights... my arse.


----------



## drivebybaptism

Its a fact that men are stronger and faster than women, example being the olympics where each sex competes against their own sex.

Even today 99% of frontline troops are male and AFAIK, special forces around the world only allow male troopers to go on missions behind enemy lines.

And again look back in history. Kings would take their sons out to lead their troops out to defeat their enemies, makes sence that the Emporer would want the same.


----------



## Arcane




----------



## Inquisitor Einar

Ohh.. that's an Awesome pic of a femal space marine. 

Back on the track of orders though.. there are more orders than those. There are several minor orders including armed ones. Read the codex 
This is ofcourse so people can make their own colour scheme and fluff for their sister order. I personally chose not to make my own order, but went with the martyred lady, and work out my fluff based on my convent. ( which is still all in my head, since I can't get a good starting point to begin writing the fluff, once I get that, I'll write everything down and post it  )


----------



## Arcane

Sorry I didn't make that model, just a figure I found on google and I agree it is pretty cool. 

Indeed, there are some other orders, but I was just trying to make a point that given the general numbers, and with each order having around 7-10k, it is very unlikely there are more than Space Marines.


----------



## Kettu

Arcane said:


> That jump of logic doesn't seem to fit. Those were not the 6 founding orders. In actuality there was one founding order called the Daughters of the Emperor or rather Bride's of the Emperor as they became. The other orders came later after the Age of Aposty.
> 
> "When Thor first took over, there were only 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor, but this quickly expanded to over 10,000 after the Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) was founded"
> 
> "Their Orders were later expanded to hold more than 15,000 Sisters, but their current standing places each Order with no more than 7,000 members"
> 
> In the beginning there were 4 orders, Martyred Lady, Valorous Heart, Ebon Chalice and the Argent Shroud. The rest were added later and are as follows. There are small missions of SoB *but* they still fall under one of these orders.
> 
> -SKIP-
> 
> So no, there are not more Adeptus Sororitas than Adeptus Astartes.


Codex Witchhunters speaks differently in this regard. (Following sources used for the following is Codex Witchhunters, various published material for the old Inquisition game and the novel 'Faith and Fire'.

There is an 'Unknown Number' of Lesser Orders, so already fluff wise it is said that a full number is impossible to know.

Around about 50% or higher of all girls to graduate from the Schola Progenium become part of the Sisterhood. Of which more then two-thirds will go into the Orders Militant.
The Sisters are present at all churches and Shrines.
They guard the Pilgrimage lanes in space.
They conduct nearly all Wars of Faith
They work part time as guards aboard the Black Ships (Assuming the rest of the time it is Sisters of Silence)
They police the church itself.
They police most branches of the Imperium under guidance from the Ordo Hereticus.

Now, even if there was only a squad of ten(10) girls, the minimum squad allowed per Codex Witchhunters, on only half the worlds in the Imperium (Assuming the rest don't have shrines or churches) then there is still Five Million (10 x 500,000 = 5,000,000) Sisters in the Imperium.
As it is confirmed that the six major orders alone have more then Twenty-one thousand girls all up and that any Shrine World (World with excessively high Ecclesiarchy presence) will have numbers of Sisters into the thousands and that there is also whole armies of the girls defending pilgrim lanes in space then even 5 million is starting to look rather small.
(Not to mention that the exact wording in C: WH is that ‘…a significant force of battle sisters will be present…’ in relation to Churches and Shrines. What constitutes ‘significant’ isn’t discussed but would probably be a damn lot more then just ten girls.)

And so, the Daughters of the Emperor probably have numbers well into, if not greater then, millions. 

Sorry for the length of the post but I just wanted to make sure I covered everything.


----------



## klaswullt

Space Marine Females is a bad idea. They SHOULD BE MEN. 
The Female Space Marine picture makes me sick.


they cant be small and female, they must all be big bulky and masculine giants.
They cant costumize their power armour, even if they where females inside
the power armour would look the same.
You couldn't tell their appearance inside the armour.
Disgusting... and Space Marines are male.. devoid of female personality traits.




Female Primarch is a great idea.

The Primarchs are clones of the Emperior, who are still all genetically unique
becouse their parents DNA is so complex.
Children of two parents are not identical to that parent and they can have either gender
but in a way they have the same GENES. 

Primarchs are like that and they are born in TUBES but born and grown.
NOT CREATED BY IMPLANTING ORGANS.

They dont have the X chromosome dependency either
becouse that is a function of the geneseed.


SO YES.... a Primarch can be female.


----------



## klaswullt

drivebybaptism said:


> Its a fact that men are stronger and faster than women, example being the olympics where each sex competes against their own sex.
> 
> Even today 99% of frontline troops are male and AFAIK, special forces around the world only allow male troopers to go on missions behind enemy lines.
> 
> And again look back in history. Kings would take their sons out to lead their troops out to defeat their enemies, makes sence that the Emporer would want the same.


 
But that is reality and in reality women can be soldiers.
Men and women are different, but that is not the same as saying that women cant be soldiers. Modern firearms are making women more usefull than men is some regards,
what you are talking about is the male proficiency for axes and swords.
Even in histoical time it is not that simple. 
You don't win war just with brute strenght and women are agile, dexterious. enduring and
have high pain resistance.
BUT WOMEN CAN NOT BE GIANT BULKY SPACE MARINES...


Its about sexual contraceptions really, women where needed in the homes
so the men went to war and all societies in all history have been sexist anyway.
Lets face it, we are a sexist and racist species, that doesn create any retroactive
"it was the way it way becouse there was a rational reason for it".

Space Marines are not even human, so male to female differences are not the issue. 
The Space Marines are based on reinforced masculine features out of proportion.

In the Imperial Guard male and female have the same usefullness.

However I would like to explore sexist and racist Empirium, 
in the same manner as mutant hating and xeonopobia.


----------



## gen.ahab

03-24-09, 03:36 PM <---- first post before you. 
Today, 02:20 AM <----- Your post. 
Difference? 
About 1072 days. 
Time stamps, gotta love'm.


----------



## Buttons

Ian_V said:


> Yup, males being genespliced with female DNA. Whatever would result from that would be just wrong...


Sounds like a job for Fabulous Bile. Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, and now Hermaphroditic Marines.


----------



## jonileth

Genetically speaking, all males started off life as females. Any embryo in fact is a female embryo to start with. The only thing that sets them apart is a specific enzyme introduced during pregnancy that starts the gender change and creates a male child.

The gene-seeds are not 'technically' gender specific. They only modify basic characteristics and kick start muscle production and bone growth. The implants are also not gender specific. The acceptance and rejection of the implants is based solely on the body's ability to suppress it's immune system and allow the implants to enter into a symbiotic relationship with the host body.

I think really, the only reason we don't have female Astartes is because no one bothered to make it so.


----------



## LukeValantine

Fenrakk101 said:


> All the SMs, CSMs, and even new SM recruits are all male. It's probably because the Emporer is male, and so his clones were, and his clone's clones were(SMs). This probably started a tradition that went down through the new recruits and such.


Actaully marines are all male because the process of making space marines involves gene alteration, and biological enhancements specifically designed for males, and even then defects occur because of incompatibility that cause neophytes to die.

A female primarch would have been fully possible as primarch are actually not space marines and don't undergo the same process, and probably don't even have the same biology. However they were all specifically designed by the emporer as semi-cloned versions of himself. In theory he could have made a female primarch, but considering his roman militaristic style its doubtful he ever did.


----------



## klaswullt

jonileth said:


> Genetically speaking, all males started off life as females. Any embryo in fact is a female embryo to start with. The only thing that sets them apart is a specific enzyme introduced during pregnancy that starts the gender change and creates a male child.
> 
> The gene-seeds are not 'technically' gender specific. They only modify basic characteristics and kick start muscle production and bone growth. The implants are also not gender specific. The acceptance and rejection of the implants is based solely on the body's ability to suppress it's immune system and allow the implants to enter into a symbiotic relationship with the host body.
> 
> I think really, the only reason we don't have female Astartes is because no one bothered to make it so.


You are extremely wrong, Primarch and Space Marine implants are totally different points!

The geneseed and all the organs are gender-dependent. They all lock to and are dependent on the male Y-chromosome.
They dont just just depend on immune system and there is no such thing as "only"
when it comes to the geneseed.
Anyway you missed more than a few of the 20 organs that makes a space marine.

Only the Primarch could for the reason you give be female.


----------



## jonileth

klaswullt said:


> They all lock to and are dependent on the male Y-chromosome.


I've done a fair amount of reading on the background fluff of 40K but I don't remember it ever saying this. This is either a revelation and I'd love to see where you got this information from, or it is simply an inference and nothing more.

And in any case, if a Primarch were to BE female, then the implants tied to the geneseed/implants would then, by your inference above, also be XX chromosome specific. Which means, basically, that if the Emperor had chosen to make a 'daughter', she would have spawned a female legion of Space Marines, which would mean it is perfectly reasonable that a SM could be female.


----------



## unxpekted22

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


hahaha. No it doesn't seem sexist. The game is catered mostly to males and such its main characters are male. Also throughout mankind's history men have been the forefront of military power, not women. Just how it is. GW was thoughtful enough to make a whole race/army nothing but females, after all. And they are very clear in the eldar codex books that gender means nothing to them in terms of skill, might, or right but for humans it still does.


----------



## klaswullt

jonileth said:


> I've done a fair amount of reading on the background fluff of 40K but I don't remember it ever saying this. This is either a revelation and I'd love to see where you got this information from, or it is simply an inference and nothing more.
> 
> And in any case, if a Primarch were to BE female, then the implants tied to the geneseed/implants would then, by your inference above, also be XX chromosome specific. Which means, basically, that if the Emperor had chosen to make a 'daughter', she would have spawned a female legion of Space Marines, which would mean it is perfectly reasonable that a SM could be female.


No and No and no way in hell.
Please dont be so extreme, I do agree about some things and not others.
If you continue, you will loose my support.
I LIKED the idea of female Primarch and why does that have to get out of control.


1.
The female Primarch would not have any geneseed, becouse the geneseed are using the Y-chromosome and the Emperor used spare Y-chromose DNA to create the geneseed.
The emperior probably only cared about gender when he created the geneseed
which is supported by the creation of the Thunder Warriors before the Primarch
and the difference in methods of cloning vs organ implants.
The basic design was supermale but wait for the huge parantesis.

(Alternative, the female Primarch have created its own brand
of genetically enginered Super Soldiers or Super Commandos, but they would not be Space Marines.
In actuallity they would be some form of Thunder Warriors.
Becouse superwomen, would not be as large, strong nor as psycho-agressive 
as required of Space Marines. 
Instead they would reinforce female traits, endurance, speed, dexterity, patience
and high pain threshold. 
No way, they should look like Space Marines, they should look more like a cross of Thunder Warriors, Assassines and Sisters Of Battle
)

OBSERVE
Emperior just ignored the super X-chromosome. reasoning psychotic males are better killing
machines than psychotic bitches.
But yes, there is X-chromosone in the labs, with supergenes. 
I think that Emperor had both supergenes in his Y and X-chromosomes. 
The female Primarch would just be an interesting person
with no legion of space marines.


2
The Emperor didn't chose the gender, its an random product or a personification of a natural force (I did prefer that) and so is all the Primarchs genetic personality and genetic unique traits.


----------



## Sworn Radical

klaswullt said:


> You are extremely wrong,...





klaswullt said:


> No and No and no way in hell.
> Please dont be so extreme, I do agree about some things and not others.
> If you continue, you will loose my support.



Regardless of the stupid (and very old) topic at hand, you're telling people the crap as how to behave *and* that their opinion is wrong without ever looking into their arguments, yet at the same time blatantly try to subdue them ?
I'd rather watch my manners if I were you ... 
How old were you again ? Oh, rather old enough to have heard about the most basic information about genetics in high school ...

Speaking of watching one's manners, berating a new member is not the way to educate them. Please mind your posting in the future?

- Serpa


----------



## klaswullt

Sworn Radical said:


> Regardless of the stupid (and very old) topic at hand, you're telling people the crap as how to behave *and* that their opinion is wrong without ever looking into their arguments, yet at the same time blatantly try to subdue them ?
> I'd rather watch my manners if I were you ...
> How old were you again ? Oh, rather old enough to have heard about the most basic information about genetics in high school …
> 
> 
> 
> Please. I do care about every argument and meant no harm, honestly.
> I stated my counter-arguments.
> You are telling me how to behave more than I do, I honestly don't know if
> am telling people how to behave.
> Subdue?, I intend to win arguments, though I guess I could be less aggressive.
> Its not like I don't respect other peoples opinion.
> Can I not tell people that they are wrong?, isn't that what everyone does?
> I haven't called anyone stupid, I haven't used any curse words either.
> You however insult me now, I haven't used any similar insults.
> I honestly don't intend to marginalize anyone.
> Are you sure you are not over-reacting and could calm down or something?
> What could I possible have written to deserve this?


----------



## MontytheMighty

Fact: Women are physically weaker and have menstrual cycles 

War is a man's game
The primarchs were made for war


----------



## Darkoan

jonileth said:


> I've done a fair amount of reading on the background fluff of 40K but I don't remember it ever saying this. This is either a revelation and I'd love to see where you got this information from, or it is simply an inference and nothing more.
> 
> And in any case, if a Primarch were to BE female, then the implants tied to the geneseed/implants would then, by your inference above, also be XX chromosome specific. Which means, basically, that if the Emperor had chosen to make a 'daughter', she would have spawned a female legion of Space Marines, which would mean it is perfectly reasonable that a SM could be female.


This.

As someone with a biomedical science background, there hasnt been a single argument in this zombie-like thread to suggest (with appropriate suspension of disbelief of course) why there could not have been a female Primarch.

Assuming the Emperor had the usual XY chromosome male genotype, theres no reason a Primarch could not have been created with an XX female genotype (for example, E could replicate his X chromosome, maybe play around with the XX chromosomes for some genetic variation etc). Dont forget the Primarchs were not clones of the Big E.

Furthermore theres no reason IF a female Primarch had been created why female Space Marines couldnt thereafter be 'produced' off her template. The argument that the conversion of a mortal to a SM is only able to occur in men (because of testosterone use??) is spurious - firstly women have testosterone in their systems (just not as much as men) and in fact we can see that women can endure higher levels of testosterone (see female body builders). Secondly, why couldnt the Emperor have made a slight adaptation to the process for the creation of female Space Marines which took into account their different hormone disposition?

People are (bewilderingly) getting Space Marines and Primarchs confused in this thread. However I DO agree that it would be very unlikely to create a female SM in the current 40k setting, as all known geneseed/implants would be hardwired to the XY genotype (having originated from males), and therefore incompatible with a mortal female. 

As for the question as whether the Big E WOULD have created Female Primarchs - why not? Its one of my theories for the lost Primarchs. This rubbish about women being inadequate as soldiers - compare Alpharius/Omegon to Angron - is it always about brawn? 

Anyone know a smart, conniving, calculating woman out there? I do. And Id prefer to serve a Primarch version of them, compared to a psycho Primarch like Angron or Curze.

But in the end, I have to relent and agree with the simple argument that women in the military just doesnt work. The less distractions the better and its as simple as that. We're talking about conquering the galaxy here - would you risk it for the sake of political correctness?


----------



## Aramoro

MontytheMighty said:


> Fact: Women are physically weaker and have menstrual cycles
> 
> War is a man's game
> The primarchs were made for war


Gee I wonder if the Emperor could have solved some of these issues when he was crafting the Primarchs? Oh of course not, I forgot people can see past the ludicrous nature of the back story but not past the fact they're scared of girl cause girls smell of wee. 

The Primarchs were men in the same way you are a Macaque.


----------



## Buttons

Aramoro said:


> Gee I wonder if the Emperor could have solved some of these issues when he was crafting the Primarchs? Oh of course not, I forgot people can see past the ludicrous nature of the back story but not past the fact they're scared of girl cause girls smell of wee.
> 
> The Primarchs were men in the same way you are a Macaque.


They were male in that they shared the same general physical appearance of a human male and presumably had male reproductive organs.


----------



## Aramoro

Buttons said:


> They were male in that they shared the same general physical appearance of a human male and presumably had male reproductive organs.


You have male reproductive organs, just like a male Macaque. The Primarchs were not Humans, Astarte are not humans so drawing parallels between them is not really that useful.


----------



## DeathKlokk

Ian_V said:


> Yup, males being genespliced with female DNA. Whatever would result from that would be just wrong...












WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!!!!


----------



## Aramoro

I don't see the problem.


----------



## DeathKlokk

"I am FranknFurticus! ALL will love me and DESPAIR!!!!!"

Beats the fuck out of Pony marines I guess.


----------



## Warped Bitz

Aramoro said:


> I don't see the problem.


Thanks for making me splutter tea all over my keyboard -.- haha


----------



## LukeValantine

Darkoan said:


> This.
> 
> As someone with a biomedical science background, there hasnt been a single argument in this zombie-like thread to suggest (with appropriate suspension of disbelief of course) why there could not have been a female Primarch.
> 
> Assuming the Emperor had the usual XY chromosome male genotype, theres no reason a Primarch could not have been created with an XX female genotype (for example, E could replicate his X chromosome, maybe play around with the XX chromosomes for some genetic variation etc). Dont forget the Primarchs were not clones of the Big E.
> 
> Furthermore theres no reason IF a female Primarch had been created why female Space Marines couldnt thereafter be 'produced' off her template. The argument that the conversion of a mortal to a SM is only able to occur in men (because of testosterone use??) is spurious - firstly women have testosterone in their systems (just not as much as men) and in fact we can see that women can endure higher levels of testosterone (see female body builders). Secondly, why couldnt the Emperor have made a slight adaptation to the process for the creation of female Space Marines which took into account their different hormone disposition?
> 
> People are (bewilderingly) getting Space Marines and Primarchs confused in this thread. However I DO agree that it would be very unlikely to create a female SM in the current 40k setting, as all known geneseed/implants would be hardwired to the XY genotype (having originated from males), and therefore incompatible with a mortal female.
> 
> As for the question as whether the Big E WOULD have created Female Primarchs - why not? Its one of my theories for the lost Primarchs. This rubbish about women being inadequate as soldiers - compare Alpharius/Omegon to Angron - is it always about brawn?
> 
> Anyone know a smart, conniving, calculating woman out there? I do. And Id prefer to serve a Primarch version of them, compared to a psycho Primarch like Angron or Curze.
> 
> But in the end, I have to relent and agree with the simple argument that women in the military just doesnt work. The less distractions the better and its as simple as that. We're talking about conquering the galaxy here - would you risk it for the sake of political correctness?


Glad to see someone else applying a neutral scientific view to the matter. As I mentioned earlier space marine does not equal primarch. In fact despite genetic similarities they probably are different enough to be considered different species, just like a marine vs a human.


----------



## LukeValantine

In fact its funny how the imperium hates mutants and xeno's, but by definition marines aren't human, nor are its primarchs or the emperor, and no they aren't super human they are none-human. Going by the fluff they are physiologically and genetically different enough to be considered a different species altogether.


----------



## bobss

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


Why the Hell should canon plausibility be compromised for equality bullshit?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Darkoan said:


> This.
> 
> As someone with a biomedical science background


As good as your argument is, the moment you try and apply science to 40K everything falls apart. The reason there are no female Space Marines or Primarchs is the same reason as bricks can fly and no one has ever thought to cover the tracks on a tank. The genetics involved in making a Primarch mean that it wouldn't have been possible to build a female version, what the scientific reason is will never be known, because GW didn't really think about that at the time.


----------



## LukeValantine

True 40k science is more like magic then anything......in fact or tech is magic.


----------



## COMPNOR

So, 18 pages later to include reviving what appeared to have been a long dormant thread, and I didn't see one person ask this question: What would be the benefit of a female Primarch?

I mean, the Emperor engineered these Primarchs right? Using parts of his own DNA, but sculpting them to fit his vision. So while I'm sure he could have made a Pitbull with Lipstick, massive Double G's, with the strength and smarts of any male Primarch, other than touting gender-equality, what tangible benefit would this bring? Why would the Emperor do this?

Several have pointed out women are better at things then men. Sure. But if he was making this Primarchs, wouldn't he have made them better in those areas if he so chose? 

Simply what benefit would a female Primarch bring other then the "Cool factor"? 

The movie "Soldier", men were selected to be the super soldiers. In Starship Troopers(novel), the Mobile Infantry were all men, but the Navy was primarily made up of Females. Shall we call those sexist too?

For all we know, maybe the Primarchs are really masculine Females, or Hermaphrodites who just get the male treat in the novels.

Or it's a lot simpler. The Emperor was a big homosexual, who liked to surround himself with fine male specimens, and not icky girls whom he had no interest in.


----------



## Darkoan

normtheunsavoury said:


> As good as your argument is, the moment you try and apply science to 40K everything falls apart. The reason there are no female Space Marines or Primarchs is the same reason as bricks can fly and no one has ever thought to cover the tracks on a tank. The genetics involved in making a Primarch mean that it wouldn't have been possible to build a female version, what the scientific reason is will never be known, because GW didn't really think about that at the time.


 
Fair enough too, but i also said 'with appropriate suspension of disbelief (SOD)'.

All discussion of fluff has to have a certain amount of SOD. My explanation of why a female Primarch COULD have been created within the paramters of known science both in our universe and the universe of WH40K i think passes this and noone has ever said anything reasonable to discount it apart from simple assertion (eg 'it wouldnt have been possible' - ok why not??), including some comment about bricks flying. I didnt follow you there.

As for why the Emperor WOULD make a female Primarchs, apart from ultimately agreeing that it wouldnt be a good idea, diversity for diversity's sake would be a reason. To argue why there should be no female Primarchs is exactly the same as arguing that there should have been 20 Guillimans or 20 Sanguinius' or 20 Angrons etc. 

Think The Origin of Species by Darwin with a healthy understanding of human anthropology. Diversity is very often a good thing with apparent reasons not evidently clear to a short-sighted view of things. The Emperor clearly believed in this when he created 20 very different Primarchs, and my extrapolation is that it is within the realms of possibilities that he could have made a female primarch following on the theme. 

Unlikely I admit.


----------



## COMPNOR

But _how_?? I mean, not even going "anything you can do I can do better", what diversity does it bring? What insight? These are all genetically engineered, created from scratch to be who they are. 

What does adding breasts bring to the table? You're right every Primarch is unique, but I haven't seen the benefit described to having a female Primarch. I don't see the diversity this brings, other than she has to go to the bathroom a different way.

Let's stop talking about is it possible, since the Emperor is gifted enough to do just about anything he wants. Let's talk about the benefits of it.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I use female Space Marines, don't see why there could not have been a female Primarch and I could not give a shit about the fluff in that regard.

There is very little reason, _scientifically_, why a female Space Marine could not be created. Sure they will more resemble a man rather than a woman at the end but I still see no reason why if a chapter was short of recruits (say a war on their home planet most of the men died protecting the planet whilst the women and children hid) why they would not use female Space Marines as a necessary interim for the chapter.


----------



## Serpion5

Stephen_Newman said:


> I use female Space Marines, don't see why there could not have been a female Primarch and I could not give a shit about the fluff in that regard.
> 
> There is very little reason, _scientifically_, why a female Space Marine could not be created. Sure they will more resemble a man rather than a woman at the end but I still see no reason why if a chapter was short of recruits (say a war on their home planet most of the men died protecting the planet whilst the women and children hid) why they would not use female Space Marines as a necessary interim for the chapter.


:suicide: 







Sorry.  But I can't really take this seriously. Dogma would stop them if science didn't.


----------



## gothik

Farseer Beltiac said:


> Ummmm....hello? Sisters of Sexy Battle:biggrin:??? Ummm.....oh crap, I hope there aren't many ladies on here.....I'm so friggin' screwed.....


yup one here and unless u have hidden the chocolate you are safe.....maybe :biggrin:


----------



## Old Man78

Because the game was invented by a bunch of male uber geeks not female uber geeks and as a male uber geek when I was a little un I always dreamed of being big and powerful and smashing baddies, it is really basic male psychology, any young boy who wants to grow up to be superwoman not superman has ISSUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Deadeye776

The Emperor's choice. There's no other reason. With his biological genius if he wanted females in the roles of custodes,astartes,or primarchs he woul've made it happen. He didn't. We've spent many other debates trying to see this guy's logic and your going to have to chalk this one up to because he felt like it. He had the Silent Sisterhood. How come there weren't any males on that? Because he felt like women. Who knows, maybe there is an innate genetic reason.Maybe it was easier that way for him. Maybe not.


----------



## JelloSea

The Emperor was married to Slaanesh but didnt know it, used Slaanesh's DNA to make 2 primarchs since the power of his mate was outsanding. The heresy happened and the emperor got a divorce and Slaanesh had a good lawyer (Tzeench) and gained control of the two legions.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Is it significant that women seem to be only represented on the evil side of things? 

Dark Eldar and Eldar, Slaanesh, only the long neglected SoB carry the female flag for the Emperor.


----------



## JelloSea

How are you supposed to look sexy as a servant of the emperor? You need to be a bad, naughty girl!


----------



## Serpion5

Which would defeat the purpose wouldn't it?


----------



## Aramoro

Magpie_Oz said:


> Is it significant that women seem to be only represented on the evil side of things?
> 
> Dark Eldar and Eldar, Slaanesh, only the long neglected SoB carry the female flag for the Emperor.


I would contest the point that Eldar are evil, there are female guardsmen and female Inquisitors as well.


----------



## jonileth

40K is not so inflexible as to preclude the possibility of there being a female Primarch if that's what someone wants to believe. As has been stated before elsewhere, the concept of 'canon' in 40K is just as much a flexible thing as the fans need and want it to be. If it fits your stories and works well in YOUR interpretation of the 40K lore to have a female Primarch busting heads in the galaxy with a Chapter of female Space Marines to uphold her legacy... get right after it.

On the flip side, if you hold to the ideal that a female Primarch is a travesty of 40K, then don't acknowledge one and don't worry about it. Just because someone else wants it, it doesn't invalidate the decades of awesome gaming that has come of the 40K universe. Whether you like it or hate it, the concept itself isn't so perverse or strange that it can't exist. It's up to you, the player, as to what you believe and what you refuse to believe.

This idea that there is some kind of 'purity' of canon is ridiculous, I've seen just as many contradictions in 40K over the years to convince me that there is no such thing. It's all about what makes the story captivating. If you can make the story better, then why not have a female Primarch? And if you can't wrap your brain around a girl in Space Marine power armor... DON'T! Just press on thinking the Space Marines are all a bunch of dudes and live life like you want to. There's no shame in taking either side, for or against. As long as, at the end of the day, you can still enjoy the games, the fluff, and the legacy that is 40K... who cares?!


----------



## LukeValantine

Oldman78 said:


> Because the game was invented by a bunch of male uber geeks not female uber geeks and as a male uber geek when I was a little un I always dreamed of being big and powerful and smashing baddies, it is really basic male psychology, any young boy who wants to grow up to be superwoman not superman has ISSUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I always wanted to grow up to be a transcendent being who could blast people apart by simply thinking about it. Never though gender was relevant to my particular power fantasy. In that respect I always loved the chaos gods as they could take the super human marine martial ideal of every male child and simply render them into ash with a casual gesture.


----------



## MEQinc

Stephen_Newman said:


> There is very little reason, _scientifically_, why a female Space Marine could not be created. Sure they will more resemble a man rather than a woman at the end but I still see no reason why if a chapter was short of recruits (say a war on their home planet most of the men died protecting the planet whilst the women and children hid) why they would not use female Space Marines as a necessary interim for the chapter.


Well the women clearly aren't worthy of being Space Marines. Not because they're girls but because they're cowards (or at least less interested in being alien-bashing-awesome-incarnate than in surviving). Becoming a Space Marine isn't about physical compatibility its about worth. And the fact of the matter is that men are typically more physically and mentally capable and willing to enact grievous violence on each other and thus draw the attention of the Marines, particularly on the culturally backwater worlds that Chapters tend to prefer.

As for a female Primarch. Yes, the Emperor could probably have created one if he'd wanted to, so you have all the wiggle room you need to craft your own. However as others have pointed out, there's no reason to create a female Primarch. A woman doesn't fundamentally think differently than a man. Ultimately all being a woman does is make armour somewhat more awkward.

Also can someone prove that the Primarchs are men? Their junk is never discussed and its possible that they don't even have conventional human DNA (as in an X and Y chromosome). They are masculine certainly, but that's to be expected.

And finally some food for thought. Isn't creating a female Primarch just because she's female just as sexist? What does she bring to the table that another Primarch can't, aside from boobs? Is being a girl special enough that being one is all you need to justify your existence in a story? Does holding up one Primarch and going "Look she's a girl!" really change the generally masculine and male-oriented nature of 40k? Is a female character necessary in order for something not to be sexist, and conversely does the existence of a female character automatically make a work not sexist?


----------



## Sturmovic

Pauly55 said:


> Right, but this brings up another question: If the primarchs are not genetically identical to the Emperor, then where did they get the rest of their genetic information? Either there is a primarch mother out there, or the emperor tweaked the genetic codes of the primarchs by making mutations. I'm leaning to the latter, given the wings of sanguinius, but it's fun to speculate that there is a mother of the imperium out there.


I say leftovers from the Dark Age of Technology.


Plus, has anyone considered the possibility that the Empra is sexist? He was born 8000 BC after all, so he might have had quite a few antiquated notions.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Pauly55 said:


> Right, but this brings up another question: If the primarchs are not genetically identical to the Emperor, then where did they get the rest of their genetic information? Either there is a primarch mother out there, or the emperor tweaked the genetic codes of the primarchs by making mutations. I'm leaning to the latter, given the wings of sanguinius, but it's fun to speculate that there is a mother of the imperium out there.


The _Horus Heresy_ series have dropped hints about this. It has been suggested that these were either mutations from the warp when being scattered or that the Primarchs were also created with power given to the Big E by the Chaos Gods.


----------



## Aramoro

MEQinc said:


> Well the women clearly aren't worthy of being Space Marines. Not because they're girls but because they're cowards



Back that up a second here, did you actually just say that? I'm fairly sure you did. ......... yup yes you did.


----------



## Darkoan

Aramoro said:


> Back that up a second here, did you actually just say that? I'm fairly sure you did. ......... yup yes you did.



I liked "A woman doesn't fundamentally think differently than a man"

I cant comment on the type of women this guy meets, but damn, wouldnt it be awesome if he were right? Do you realise how much more fellatio in the world there would be?


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Darkoan said:


> I liked "A woman doesn't fundamentally think differently than a man"
> 
> I cant comment on the type of women this guy meets, but damn, wouldnt it be awesome if he were right? Do you realise how much more fellatio in the world there would be?


Actually that doesn't follow as men think about getting not giving.


----------



## Serpion5

And we're beginning to wander...


----------



## LukeValantine

Into a black bog of despair full of faceless nightmares beyond imagining?


----------



## MEQinc

Aramoro said:


> Back that up a second here, did you actually just say that? I'm fairly sure you did. ......... yup yes you did.


Cowards because they ran and hid from the invading aliens. And I did rephrase it to "less interested in being alien-bashing-awesome-incarnate than in surviving". That's not a bad thing, not at all, but it's not what marines are. 

And different focus' =/= fundamental different thought processes. As in, most guys probably think about sex more than most women but that doesn't mean women aren't capable of thinking about sex or think about it in a different way. Just that they think about it less. So a female Primarch then might spend less time thinking about getting laid than the masculine Primarchs, who think about it how much exactly?


----------



## Darkoan

MEQinc said:


> Cowards because they ran and hid from the invading aliens. And I did rephrase it to "less interested in being alien-bashing-awesome-incarnate than in surviving". That's not a bad thing, not at all, but it's not what marines are.
> 
> And different focus' =/= fundamental different thought processes. As in, most guys probably think about sex more than most women but that doesn't mean women aren't capable of thinking about sex or think about it in a different way. Just that they think about it less. So a female Primarch then might spend less time thinking about getting laid than the masculine Primarchs, who think about it how much exactly?


Firstly, I think its near canon that Space Marines, and certainly Primarchs, have little to no interest in sex (that has ever been mentioned). So Im not sure how thats relevant. And... wait Im sorry, I have to move on. 




Serpion5 said:


> And we're beginning to wander...


 

Ahem yes, what I really wanted to say is that this point of view that a female Primarch would be some kind of second-best version is ridiculous - the same applies whether youre talking about a SM or a Primarch.

My argument is simple - SMs are not just about brawn. And neither are the Primarchs. So therefore any suggestion that a female Primarch, who lets be honest would be likely physically weaker than her male counterparts, would not fit into the Emperor's plan is disingenuous. Its not unimportant, but its just not the only thing to consider.

Firstly, look at the number of implants a Space Marine receives - only two of them relate to brute force (Ossmodula - bones
Biscopea - muscle growth). Many aspects of physical superiority a Space Marine makes.

Secondly, the weakest IG wielding a plasma cannon packs the same firepower as a Primarch wielding it. In the WH40k setting, of any setting, brute strength is in fact an overrated characteristic to have. The books dont portray it that way because we all know hand to hand combat is awesome to read 

Thirdly, to say brute force is all the Primarchs are about is just nonsense - if it were so the Emperor would have made 20 Angrons. But he didnt. Primarchs were designed not only to fight wth their bare fists and chain axes - they wielded spaceships, they commanded armies, they were military diplomats and strategists. Aspects unrelated to brawn. Brawn was relevant, but not as important as other characteristics IMO. For example, think of how much the Alpha twins (the 'weakest' Primarchs) accomplished in DL.

Now dont get me wrong, I hate political correctness and I detest 'diversity for diversity's sake' arguments. But I do believe that a diversity of thought process (which might reasonably be expected of a female Primarch) could have benefitted the GC. All 18 known Primarchs were diverse - a female point of view would have fit into that. Sure, that female legion would have been a little weaker physically, but as pointed out above I think that slight decrease in strength really is unimportant if one is prepared to take the stance that a diversity has its benefits as well.

I think a more relevant questions is what would have happended if ALL the Primarchs had been female?

If we can stereotype here: if women are less power hungry, more facilitative, less brazen, would the HH have even occurred?

Is it arguable that 20 female Primarchs with the faith of the sisters of battle would not have been tempted by Chaos? 
I thinks its a very good argument.

So therefore would a female Primarch be an utterly ridiculous idea?


----------



## doofyoofy

Ive not read the all the posts jsut the first couple of pages and the last couple. 
@ darkoan
just would liek to say that a female Primarch might not necessarily be weaker physically than the "average" Primarch, or even than the stronger Primarchs. Primarchs are ridiculously far removed from humanity, there is no reason that if the Big E had made a female Primarch, he couldnt have made it as a strong as the men, considering they are genengineered. Assuaming he kept the physiological differences in terms off strength of men and women, he could also have made up for it with a "warp power", similar to Sanguinous Wings. 

Also small nitpick, but Vulkan and Ferrus Manus are purportedly the 2 strongest physically Primarchs. Magnus being the largest physicaly, Vulkan and Manus close seconds in size, but stronger. IRRC brings this up in one of the Horus Heresy anthologies, the one with the Salamander and Ultramarine together.


----------



## Prometheus41k

There doesnt need to be female primarchs...there are female living saints. They are pretty darn powerful as well.


----------



## klaswullt

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


Why are everyone so feminist anyway.


Its not sexist, we know why there probably are not.

I would like there to be a female primarch as long
as there are no female space marines.


They would be more like assassines anyway.


----------



## MEQinc

Darkoan said:


> Firstly, I think its near canon that Space Marines, and certainly Primarchs, have little to no interest in sex (that has ever been mentioned). So Im not sure how thats relevant. And... wait Im sorry, I have to move on.


The question was meant to be rhetorical.



> But I do believe that a diversity of thought process (which might reasonably be expected of a female Primarch) could have benefitted the GC. All 18 known Primarchs were diverse - a female point of view would have fit into that.


What is a female point of view? And what diversity does it add, that a male couldn't provide? If the Emperor had wanted a Primarch that would bake cookies and feel sorry for those they were sent to conquer, he could've made a male Primarch to feel that way (as some dudes are actually compassionate and junk). If he'd wanted to give Angron boobs, he could've but that wouldn't change Angron's personality. 

My point is that the Emperor scratch built the Primarchs, their bodies and their personalities. There isn't necessarily any correlation between the two, unless the Emperor wanted there to be. Therefore a 'female' perspective is no more or less diverse than a 'male' perspective amongst the Primarchs.



> If we can stereotype here: if women are less power hungry, more facilitative, less brazen, would the HH have even occurred?


The Primarchs, regardless of gender, would have to be power-hungry and brazen in order to be effective. One does not rise to rule a planet, and then go on to conquer hundreds, without being headstrong, proud, assertive and violent. The characteristics that Chaos latched on to are not ones restricted to men.


----------



## Darkoan

'What is a female point of view?' In the 40k universe, I agree with you that its probably not that different from a male perspective. But let me just say that your question answers itself - who knows? Thats the point of doing something differently sometimes - to have an ace up your sleeve, a failsafe, a short circuit, a difference that you may not have contemplated for the sake of difference.

For example
the Emperor in his wisdom and his vast knowledge of 100s of generations of human civilisation may have discerned some pattern in the thought process and leadership abilities of women when compared to men. Perhaps they were more empathetic, fairer, less fair, more restrained, less restrained, or perhaps being a minority brings an advantage in itself, in a way an 'underdog story' can not only lead to alternate ways to accomplish certain tasks against the odds, but also creates an inspirational anthology of stories for human kind to be inspired by.

And leading on from this, perhaps the Emperor may have believed that it would be easier to get the buy in and dedication of the fairer 50% of the population if 2 of the Primarchs were female. Not too far fetched, given that pretty much what we're doing know with company boards/management.

While I generally agree that the Primarchs were 'brazen', they were not all power-hungry and headstrong, and therefore i dont think all Primarchs had to have qualities that made them lightning rods for Chaos. As we know, 9 Primarchs DIDNT turn to Chaos. Guilliman and Vulkan as examples of Primarchs with 'humane' qualities (ie mercy, compassion, restraint), which are significant factors on why they didnt turn to Chaos. And so my point is that if the Emperor with some kind of wisdom decided to imbue 2 Primarchs with feminine qualities, not because he thought they had a discernible advantage over their male counterparts, but as a way to provide a balance to the more masculine approaches because for some reason that was beneficial (in fact we can point to a benefit that you have even highlighted, that being a proclivity to avoid the corruption of chaos) - in my line of work its called avoiding concentration risk. If I can use a financial term here, perhaps the Emperor wanted to 'diversify his portfolio' of Primarchs.

At the end of it, Im inclined to agree with you, its unlikely based on canon, speculation and suspension of disbelief that the Big E made female Primarchs BUT there is no reason why he COULDNT have, and furthermore Ive posited some reasons why in fact it would have been advantageous. So for the purpose of my little WH40K fantasies Im going with at least one of Primarch II and XI were female and not one bit of reasonable speculation has caused me to pause and think otherwise. Happy to be convinced otherwise.


----------



## MEQinc

Darkoan said:


> And leading on from this, perhaps the Emperor may have believed that it would be easier to get the buy in and dedication of the fairer 50% of the population if 2 of the Primarchs were female.


Interesting but ultimately unlikely. The Emperor doesn't seem to be all that interested in getting people to 'buy in' to his ideas, at least not right away. That's what the Iterators were for. The Primarchs on the other hand were created to conquer and you don't really need approval to conquer (just look at Curze's rep).

In addition, women can and have followed, and agreed with, men. The idea that women would follow only another woman, or that they would be more inclined to agree with another woman, is silly. Would Angron be more likable as a chick? Hell no.



> While I generally agree that the Primarchs were 'brazen', they were not all power-hungry and headstrong, and therefore i dont think all Primarchs had to have qualities that made them lightning rods for Chaos.


1) All the Primarchs were most definitely power-hungry. No one rises to run a country, let alone a sector, without wanting to. I would describe anyone with the drive to rule hundreds of planets as being hungry for power, because that's the only reason someone would do it. The Primarchs all hungered for control, for dominance and thus ultimately for power. 

2) I'd argue that any quality can serve as a lightning rod for Chaos, that's what makes it so dangerous. However that's not really relevant to the topic at hand, so I won't go into greater detail.



> Guilliman and Vulkan as examples of Primarchs with 'humane' qualities (ie mercy, compassion, restraint), which are significant factors on why they didnt turn to Chaos.


1) I'm not really sure that you could call Guilliman or Vulkan merciful or restrained. Sure they're not quite as unrepentantly psychotic as some of their brothers but then, no one is. Guilliman's warriors still burned an entire city, who's only crime was devotion to the Emperor (Monarchia) and did so without hesitation, he still decided to completely abandon the rest of the galaxy to the predations of Chaos (his Second Imperium). These are not the acts of a merciful man.

2) Many positive qualities can be seen in the traitor Primarchs as well. One cannot argue that Magnus, Mortarion or Perturabo did not love their sons, or their father. Horus was proclaimed the best of them and many felt that he was a truly great man. And if _The Outcast Dead_ is any indication, even Angron might have restrained himself (indeed probably all the Primarchs did to some degree, to even interact with mortals they'd have to tone everything down).



> And so my point is that if the Emperor with some kind of wisdom decided to imbue 2 Primarchs with feminine qualities, not because he thought they had a discernible advantage over their male counterparts, but as a way to provide a balance to the more masculine approaches because for some reason that was beneficial (in fact we can point to a benefit that you have even highlighted, that being a proclivity to avoid the corruption of chaos)


1) I directly stated that I did not believe a female Primarch would be more resistant to Chaos, and have continued to expound upon my reasoning for this.

2) Feminine qualities are not held exclusively by females. The Emperor scratch built the Primarchs, if he'd wanted to he could've easily given 'feminine' qualities to a 'male' Primarch. Hell, he gave canine qualities to one which I would think would be a decidedly harder feat.

3) A 'masculine' approach is pretty much exactly what the Primarchs were created for. Like it or not, our society (and every historical one that I can think of) views war as a masculine activity. That's not to say that women can't fight or kill, or can't be good at it. What it means is that they will be viewed as being masculine because of it. 

Let's try a thought experiment. I want you to picture a warrior, draped in furs and drenched in blood. An axe gripped tight in one hand, whilst the other holds aloft the head of a vanquished foe. Tell me, is the individual your picturing a man or a woman? My money is on it being a man. 
When you hear warrior/soldier/killer/etc most people assume a man. Think of Samus, it was surprising when it was revealed that she's a girl because it was assumed that, by virtue simply of being a good soldier, she was a man.



> its unlikely based on canon, speculation and suspension of disbelief that the Big E made female Primarchs BUT there is no reason why he COULDNT have,


Oh, I'm not saying he couldn't have. I simply don't see any reason why he should've or would've.


----------



## Azkaellon

Talonmaster Raptoris said:


> just a quick question, why are there no female primarchs??
> I'm not a girl, but doesn't that seem sexist??


No because if you read the books it explains that the emperor made them from his DNA so there more or less Mini-Clones, Each representing a different part of the emperors Personality\ ability s.


----------



## Aramoro

MEQinc said:


> What is a female point of view? And what diversity does it add, that a male couldn't provide? If the Emperor had wanted a Primarch that would bake cookies and feel sorry for those they were sent to conquer, he could've made a male Primarch to feel that way (as some dudes are actually compassionate and junk). If he'd wanted to give Angron boobs, he could've but that wouldn't change Angron's personality.


I do like reading MEQinc's posts in this thread, it's like his entire knowledge of women comes from bad US sitcoms or something.


----------



## Iron Angel

I think is point is that gender was actually irrelevant to the issue. I seriously doubt the Emperor decided on all men because he hates women, but rather to keep it homogenous and because generally there are more male soldiers than women, meaning it makes more sense to pick all men than all women. I'm sure plenty of distinguished female guard and such are passed over for selection simply because the Imperium as we know it is a theocratic clusterfuck and since the Emperor picked only men, well, we can't go around defying the emperor now can we?

It makes sense from a fluff point of view. All men required less tampering with the genes of the primarchs and created a basic template that could be applied across all of them, instead of needing special female genes for some and male for others.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Aramoro said:


> I do like reading MEQinc's posts in this thread, it's like his entire knowledge of women comes from bad US sitcoms or something.


Quite a feat when you have your head up your arse.


----------



## Serpion5

Aramoro said:


> I do like reading MEQinc's posts in this thread, it's like his entire knowledge of women comes from bad US sitcoms or something.





Magpie_Oz said:


> Quite a feat when you have your head up your arse.


Play nice.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Iron Angel said:


> It makes sense from a fluff point of view. All men required less tampering with the genes of the primarchs and created a basic template that could be applied across all of them, instead of needing special female genes for some and male for others.


Actually if he had any sense at all he would have made all Primarchs and Space Marines Female as they would then be easily genetically engineered to be capable of asexual reproduction/parthenogenesis, thus solving a large number of problems that face the Space Marines in regards of preserving their gene seed.


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## Aramoro

Serpion5 said:


> Play nice.


That is me playing nice.


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## Magpie_Oz

+1, I was holding back too


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## Serpion5

Aramoro said:


> That is me playing nice.





Magpie_Oz said:


> +1, I was holding back too


And that will be the end of it.


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## MEQinc

Aramoro said:


> I do like reading MEQinc's posts in this thread, it's like his entire knowledge of women comes from bad US sitcoms or something.


It appears I have not been making myself clear. I do not believe that there is a distinctly and solely female way of thinking. The 'cookies and sympathy' comment was deliberately stereotypical, as I am guessing that this is what others are referring to when they talk about a female perspective (because no one has responded to my questions as to what this perspective is). I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Or if by trying to have an actual discussion about the topic I'm ruining your fun.



Iron Angel said:


> I think is point is that gender was actually irrelevant to the issue.


Yes, thank you.

Primarchs are effectively genderless, as they are almost certainly incapable of reproduction. They are exclusively masculine, but as I have attempted to explain being masculine is not the same as being a man.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Actually if he had any sense at all he would have made all Primarchs and Space Marines Female as they would then be easily genetically engineered to be capable of asexual reproduction/parthenogenesis, thus solving a large number of problems that face the Space Marines in regards of preserving their gene seed.


Well, given that the Primarchs were created from scratch (I feel like I say that in every post) if the Emperor had wanted them to be capable of asexual reproduction then he could've done so. And I don't think women are actually all that much closer to be capable of this than men (aside from the fact that they can give birth, which is an admittedly big issue). Also, I'm not sure what problems you are referring to. As far as I can tell, none of the founding Legions have a problem when it comes to the amount of gene-seed they have, or their ability to store it. They have problems with it becoming diluted, due to numerous generations of implantation but that cannot really be helped (breeding would actually likely cause a far swifter variance).


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## Darkoan

Firstly, interesting points.
Secondly, ultimately I believe you are arguing why the E WOULDNT have made female Primarchs, and Im arguing theres no reason why the E COULDNT. I agree mostly why he wouldnt, but if he wanted to he COULD, and furthermore I can think of some reasons why he would.
Thirdly, not to strangle a dead cat, but i thought Id offer a different perspective on some of the things you said.




MEQinc said:


> Interesting but ultimately unlikely. The Emperor doesn't seem to be all that interested in getting people to 'buy in' to his ideas, at least not right away. That's what the Iterators were for. The Primarchs on the other hand were created to conquer and you don't really need approval to conquer (just look at Curze's rep).
> They didnt need to be like Curze, and in fact, shouldnt they have done the opposite of him? Didnt Guilliman, Lorgar and Vulkan attempt to get buy-in? Cmon seriously, the Emperor appears to have altruistic views on uniting the galaxy (as opposed to just being a murderous conqueror) - you dont think he wanted humanity's buy-in?
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, women can and have followed, and agreed with, men. The idea that women would follow only another woman, or that they would be more inclined to agree with another woman, is silly. Would Angron be more likable as a chick? Hell no.
> I didnt say women would only follow a women, but I believe human psychology finds symbols important, so dont you think women might appreciate a galaxy ruled by men if the E had acknowledged that women had a place in it too not only as citizens, but as its conquerors (albeit a token 1 or 2 out of 20)?
> 
> 
> 1) ... The Primarchs all hungered for control, for dominance and thus ultimately for power.
> To some extent of course, but mostly I disagree. Didnt most of them conquer worlds and then leave? Hardly if any of them ever have mentioned any desire for power in the HH novels. In terms of ruling systems Guilliman was more the exception than the rule. Lorgar sought to rule/govern not for power but to spread faith.
> 
> 2) I'd argue that any quality can serve as a lightning rod for Chaos,
> Agreed
> 
> 1) I'm not really sure that you could call Guilliman or Vulkan merciful or restrained.
> Im reading the Salamanders books at the moment and if Vulkan had anything to do with the Salamanders he was merciful and respectful of mortals.
> Guilliman's warriors still burned an entire city,
> At the Emperors orders. I highly doubt he would have done it otherwise.
> 
> 2) Many positive qualities can be seen in the traitor Primarchs as well.
> Yes - but doesnt demonstrate why the E would have thought a female Primarch was a bad idea
> 
> 
> 1) I directly stated that I did not believe a female Primarch would be more resistant to Chaos, and have continued to expound upon my reasoning for this.
> Agreed - and issue not relevant
> 
> 
> 2) Feminine qualities are not held exclusively by females. The Emperor scratch built the Primarchs, if he'd wanted to he could've easily given 'feminine' qualities to a 'male' Primarch.
> True - but IF he wanted to have a Primarch with feminine qualities, wouldnt it have been a natural fit to, I dont know, place them in a female?
> 
> 3) A 'masculine' approach is pretty much exactly what the Primarchs were created for. Like it or not, our society (and every historical one that I can think of) views war as a masculine activity.
> Have a look at the increasing number of women in the military, and how rapidly the proportions are changing. Extrapolate that 30,000 years. Cmon, seriously guy.
> 
> Let's try a thought experiment. I want you to picture a warrior, draped in furs and drenched in blood.
> Olga Kurylenko in Centurion? Sarah Connor in Terminator 2? Ripley from Aliens? Charlize Theron in Monster? The chick I just broke up with - man she was scary. Id face down Angron any day, but not her.
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm not saying he couldn't have. I simply don't see any reason why he should've or would've.
> Fair enough - see my first line. I just think it would make for an interesting story and is feasible.
> /quote]
> 
> 
> 
> Please do not post in red text, red is reserved for the staff. Thank you.
> 
> - Serpa


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## COMPNOR

> At the Emperors orders. I highly doubt he would have done it otherwise.


I dunno. That city basically stood for everything they were against. Considering they did give people time to evacuate, I believe they would have raised it to the ground whether the emperor ordered it or not. 

I agree that the Emperor had the knowledge to if he wanted. Hell, I'm sure he could have made a viable human centipede. I just don't think he would have, nor do I think it would be very interesting to have one or two females running around as Primarchs. Maybe if like half where men, and half were female, but one or two, or a missing one?

Hell, I think that's sexiest right there. Because it's basically saying a woman was token to begin with, and then couldn't hack it, and had to be put down.


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## MEQinc

Darkoan said:


> Didnt Guilliman, Lorgar and Vulkan attempt to get buy-in? Cmon seriously, the Emperor appears to have altruistic views on uniting the galaxy (as opposed to just being a murderous conqueror) - you dont think he wanted humanity's buy-in?




He certainly wanted them to buy-in, eventually. Like I said, I don't think he necessarily needed people to buy-in straight away, that he needed the Primarchs to get people to buy-in. All of the Primarchs (except maybe 1) made at least a perfunctory effort to get people to join willingly (what I'd call buying-in). All of them were perfectly willing to force those same people to surrender. The Primarchs were ultimately conquerors, they were built to bring people into the Imperium, whether they wanted to join or not. The people's willingness to buy-in to the ideals of the Imperium was, at best, a secondary concern. Indeed, Lorgar was punished (in part) for working to hard on getting people to buy in. The Emperor wanted to rule the galaxy (for whatever reason) and to do so he needed to conquer the galaxy, he was perfectly content to have to consolidate his rule after it had been established.
 


> Didnt most of them conquer worlds and then leave?


Mostly I was referring to their home-worlds, which they did not leave until the Emperor came for them. Beyond that though, they all conquered as part of a vision of a united Imperium, one which they would have a important role in running. Whether or not they remained on the planet is largely irrelevant, their place in its power-structure cannot be ignored. 




> Im reading the Salamanders books at the moment and if Vulkan had anything to do with the Salamanders he was merciful and respectful of mortals.


Vulkan and the Salamanders are merciful, for Marines. As in, compared to other mass-murdering super-soldiers, they are indeed 'nice' people. That's a weak comparison though, and I think that when you look at them compared to regular people they are still on the emotionless killing-machine side of the scale. 

 


> At the Emperors orders. I highly doubt he would have done it otherwise.


So? He still murdered countless people, simply because they didn't agree with his father (or in the case of Monarchia, because they had been mislead). This is not the act of a merciful man. A merciful man does not kill innocent people, regardless of his orders. Curze believed that he was following orders. Does that make him any less of a monster? 

 


> Yes - but doesnt demonstrate why the E would have thought a female Primarch was a bad idea


No, my point was more that positive qualities do not a loyalist make. Thus meaning that a female (whom you seem to think would have more positive qualities) would not necessarily be any more immune to Chaos.

 


> Olga Kurylenko in Centurion? Sarah Connor in Terminator 2? Ripley from Aliens?


1) Well, if that's what you picture then good on ya I guess. My point wasn't that women can't be warriors, just that the term is skewed towards a masculine interpretation (at least in my experience). 

2) Are any of these women what you would consider conventionally feminine (in personality)? 

3) I don't think that theses characters being women causes them to think or behave in ways that are fundamentally different from the way the male members of their respective stories (or similar such stories) do. 




> I just think it would make for an interesting story and is feasible.




Sure. Pretty much anything is feasible in 40k (that's one of the great things about it). I just don't think it's likely. I'm not trying to say that you can't have female Primarchs in your interpretation of the 40k verse, you're free to do whatever you want. I suppose all I'm really trying to do is explain why I don't have female Primarchs in my version and why I think GW doesn't have one in their canon (as of yet).


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## Magpie_Oz

Here's one.

Testosterone.

Testosterone has a marked affect on both the physiology and psychology of humans.
In particular testosterone promotes grow in the body in general but the brain in particular. The more testosterone you have the bigger your organs will be and the greater the number of synapses will be in your brain. It increases you spatial abilities and memory.

Females have less testosterone than Males but are effected more by changes in the testosterone levels.

In Males testosterone levels decrease when they fall in love. In Females the opposite happens. 

Thus when the Emperor made the Primarchs, those who would raise the legions that would defend mankind, the situation arose that the more those faithful servants love him, the less they become.

A Female Primarch and her descendents would have grown stronger by loving the Emperor.


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## Lost&Damned

@Magpie
they would also grow penises and body hair /thread
and space marines dont feel "love" just duty, honour etc...


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## Magpie_Oz

Testosterone does not genetically alter you to grow male genitalia. It is of course essential for male genitalia.

I am not suggesting that female Space Marines would be dosed on testosterone rather that love of the Emperor will have a positive physical effect on females and a deleterious one on males.

Love transcends all, how many men have forsaken their honour, duty etc for love? Edward the VIII springs to mind.


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## Lost&Damned

sorry your right they would have enlarged clitorises, and to become a astartes you have to undergo chemical therapy where they pump you up with all sorts of drugs no doubt testosterone forms a large part of this, (btw testosterone also plays a massive role in height, bone density and muscle mass).
and again space marines dont love.
id post pictures of bodybuilding females clits but i dont think it would be allowed (it's basically a very small penis)
A female primarch COULD work but like MEQinc explains there is no reason for it, However, female Astartes wouldnt work, why use females then make them masculine when you you could just use males who already have higher levels of testosterone, higher bone density, more muscle mass, more brain synapses etc...
>The clitoris is formed from the same tissues that would have become the glans and upper shaft of a penis if the embryo had been exposed to "male" hormones. sauce is wiki.
no need for asexual reproduction, they can just be cloned if they really wanted to do that.


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## Magpie_Oz

What Space marine do or do not do at the moment is irrelevant, yes female space marines would not be male space marines, no big surprise there.

I'm not convinced that Space Marines don't love by the way, I think more that such feelings are repressed. Never a good thing. Love is a stronger bond than any other and is missing from their arsenal.

You can enhance or change a Females body without changing the internal anatomy.

I'm sorry to tell you mate but the female clitoris is nothing like the male penis, despite any vague visual similarity. I'd recommend that we cease this line of discussion as I am sure there is a forum rule it is in contravention of.

The whole point would be that had there been a Female Primarch there would be a different type of space marine with different, possibly better in some cases, characteristics. I've given 2, the ability to give birth, possibly asexually and the devotion to a cause that comes from love.

They would have all of those things you mention WITHOUT them being reduced if they love the Emperor and if they truly love the Emperor they would be incorruptible and the whole Traitor Legion thing would never have happened.


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## Iron Angel

This topic got weird in a hurry.


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## DeathKlokk

*Got* weird?! The fucking TITLE is weird.


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## Iron Angel

Well, weird_er._

I mean, the topic of engorged clitorises (clitori?) was actually brought up. Seriously.


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## Magpie_Oz

hey I didn't bring up "lady bits"

Mind you 14k+ views, at least we know what the crowd likes.


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## Serpion5

Alright, this thread has caused enough tension and I am sick of dealing with the complaints. Nothing is worth the pointless argument this is leading to. 

Closed.


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