# What BL book would you consider Superior Literature?



## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Is there any book published by Black Library that one would consider a great work, worthy of an award or something someone would consider a Superior Piece of Literature? Like how one would consider Lord of the Rings to be one of if not the best piece of Fiction ever created. Is there anything like that set in the 40k or Fantasy universe?

Now, I've read not a small amount of books from BL, the Ultramarines Novels, Ravenor, the first Gaunts Ghosts Omnibus, Faith and Fire, the first Ciaphas Cain Omnibus. However, that is a small drop in the ocean that is the Black Library. At last count wasn't there more the 100 books published so far?


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## ashmo (Mar 20, 2011)

I loved the ultramarines omnibus i thought it was very well written and i couldnt put it down!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Yeah, there are a lot of BL books out there, and the number of them is always increasing. 

What is superior literature, though? Not much. I love BL to bits, but most of their work isn't all that cerebral.

Hmm...the Horus Heresy series is definitely a large investment of time and money, but at the same time, it's a rather thoughtful series on the rise and fall of man as an empire. Plus it lays a lot of great groundwork for how humankind in the year 30k will change by the year 40k.

If you decide to get into the Horus Heresy series (which I wholly recommend), definitely start out with the first trilogy: _Horus Rising, False Gods,_ and _Galaxy in Flames_. That said, one of the reasons I brought it up as literature (rather than as just a better sci fi series than much of BL's somewhat pulpy work) was one of the more recent works in the series, _Prospero Burns_. It's paired with _A Thousand Sons_ as one of two books about the fight between the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons.

But where _A Thousand Sons_ is merely great, and a great example of how the Horus Heresy is improving the quality of BL's output, _Prospero Burns_ is one of the first BL books that I truly consider literature. It's a deep, broad-rooted, wholly perception-altering view of 30k and 40k, and I was deeply enriched in reading it.

That's not to say that there aren't some glimmers of brilliance in the rest of the Horus Heresy series, though. The aforementioned _A Thousand Sons_ and opening trilogy, as well as quite a few more books that transcend mere hack-and-slashery: _Legion, The First Heretic, The Flight of the Eisenstein_, and some of the short stories in _Tales of Heresy_ ("The Last Church" and "After De'Shea" in particular).

Less massive investments than most of the Heresy? Can do!

A firm personal favorite is the Shira Calpurnia Omnibus, _Enforcer_. Imagine my amusement when I went to find my recent post on it and found that I'd been replying to you at the time! 

In that case, I'll reiterate another recommendation, too: Si Spurrier's _Lord of the Night_. Plus I've heard excellent things (but shamefully not read for myself) about how AD-B portrays the Night Lords in his own rendition of them, _Soul Hunter_.

And...my quiver's out, for now.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I gotta go with this list in order.

1. _Horus Rising_
2. _Prospero Burns_
3. _Fulgrim_
4. _Thousand Sons_
5. _The First Heretic_


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I gotta go with this list in order.
> 
> 1. _Horus Rising_
> 2. _Prospero Burns_
> ...


(all, for clarity's sake, among the Horus Heresy books)


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## ashmo (Mar 20, 2011)

Hmm I've been told about the horus heresy books but never really looked into them, now when I've finished reading courage and honour I'll buy the heresy series they sound really good


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Both Space Wolves Omnibus (specially William Kings 4 books). The Smur...er...Ultramarines 6 books (have read 5 of the 6, so I'll lump in the last one due to the previous 5's track record).


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Goddammit, I forgot to mention the Horus Heresy Novels. Ya, I've read all of them except Mechanicum, Nemesis, Properor Burns, and the First Heretic. Everything else is read. The Horus Heresy Series is all well written, besides a few that really weren't that good at all, that I agree with. 

Funnily enough, I just bought the Enforcer Omnibus today, right before I posted this thread. It's awesome to know it will be a great book.

Further clarification on what I'm asking: Is there any BL novel that you would think deserves one of the Sci-fi/Fantasy, or fiction awards other novels get? Anything you consider of a quality that you consider should be remembered for all time(like LotR).

There are so many BL books, I was just wondering which one, if any, deserves that kind of recognition.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

If you really want literature, i think 75% of BL novels aint it. Some HH books are quite great, Eisenhorn too and maybe few more like Angels of Darkness.

Most sadly fell to average. Too much action, not enough plot or depth of characters.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

75%? More like 95%. And I don't mean to be disparaging, merely realistic.

I agree with _Prospero Burns_ beng the closest to what I personally consider a literary work.

Not that this subject hugely matters; many, many BL books are extremely good at what they are and make no attempt or even allusion at being literature. I think _Prospero Burns_ only comes close by (relative) accident, due to the inspiration behind the style and construction of the book. I also think that Abnett's grown as a writer to the point where if he _wanted_ to sit down and write a piece of literature, I think he could probably do it.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

What Mob said, on all counts. As long as you don't go into Prospero Burns expecting it to be a continuation of _A Thousand Sons_, or to cover...well, its titular event more than _Sons_, you should be fine. A great many fans cried foul when they were given a harrowing psycholocigal intrigue about a scribe attached to the Space Wolves rather than a bolter porn book about the Space Wolves tearing apart all sorts of enemies (especially the Thousand Sons).

And as I said about Enforcer again, be forewarned that the plot is...diffuse. Shira Calpurnia, especially in the second book, can at times be a mere bystander to the events going on. Sometimes swathes of description bog down the plot. Still, it's by far the best look into the Imperium's operation and day-to-day existence that exists!


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of BL books out there, and the number of them is always increasing.
> 
> What is superior literature, though? Not much. I love BL to bits, but most of their work isn't all that cerebral.
> 
> ...



Indeed and all you have heard is correct. I wouldnt call it masterful literature but it is, for me, the best BL book, of the 30+ i have, that I have read from a literary point of view as well as a fan of the genre.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Okay, here's my top 10.

_Prospero Burns_
_A Thousand Sons_
_Horus Rising_
_Soul Hunter_
_The First Heretic_
_The Flight of the Eisentien_
_Fulgrim_
_Fall of Damnos_
_Tales of Heresy_
_Legion_

There we go. Not in order mind you, and everything apart from _Fall of Damnos_ and _Soul Hunter_ are in the Horus Heresy series.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Black Library produces fun books that are meant to get the reader to go "oh, that was neat", but are they great works of literature? No.... hell no. That just isn't what they are meant to be. I love BL, their book are great, but they are not now, nor will they ever be, great works of literature. Thats just simply not what they are their for.

P.S. There is no way in fuck they will ever even get close enough to kiss the feet of something like the Lord of The Rings. Their writers are nowhere close to that adept.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> Okay, here's my top 10.
> 
> _Prospero Burns_
> _A Thousand Sons_
> ...


Think this was thread about real literature and what readers consider more serious and mature read and not just top 10. Even though i agree with your list those are great books but only few of those i consider close to real literature. Ian Watson's books comes quite close to this.

And guys here were right about Prospero burns, i liked this book and even though i dont think its not near top of HH series, its plotwise more intriguing than most of them. I dont mind that most of BL books aint real literature, but after reading last 10 BL books i had to jump outside of 40K universe atleast for little while.

And gen.ahab above is right. If Lord of the Rings can be given perfect 10 as book (even though paper-thin characters), some reviewers here should think what they score for a book. On their scale if they would post review of Tolkien's book it should get 15/10


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Roninman said:


> *Think this was thread about real literature and what readers consider more serious and mature read and not just top 10. *Even though i agree with your list those are great books but only few of those i consider close to real literature. Ian Watson's books comes quite close to this.


Yes, I know that. That's why I included the ones that in my opinon are the best lierature wise. I should've probably stated that in my original post, but my favourite top ten would have no doubt included others that are different to this list.



Roninman said:


> And gen.ahab above is right. If Lord of the Rings can be given perfect 10 as book (even though paper-thin characters), some reviewers here should think what they score for a book. On their scale if they would post review of Tolkien's book it should get 15/10


I should've also probably stated that during my reviews I have a different rating scale for Black Library books and non-black library books, I might point out.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Well in my opinion the Gaunts Ghosts are to Sci-Fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy, so yeah.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

My top favorite BL books

1 The First Heretic
2 The Thousand Sons
3 Legion

I have only read the HH series but I am currently reading Storm of Iron.
Next up is Grey Knights Omn and Titanicus


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Well in my opinion the Gaunts Ghosts are to Sci-Fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy, so yeah.


In my opinion that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark. GGs do exactly what they say on the tin. A great series about the IG in the 40K universe, comparing it to LotR is like comparing Manchester United to the the school's under 12's! For me the best book in the series is Necropolis. The story is very well written, the action free flowing and they way it moves the whole saga on is great. But as a LotR nay chance!


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Androxine Vortex said:


> My top favorite BL books
> 
> 1 The First Heretic
> 2 The Thousand Sons
> ...


You will not be disappointed with that one. Great Titan battle scenes


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

polynike said:


> In my opinion that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark. GGs do exactly what they say on the tin. A great series about the IG in the 40K universe, comparing it to LotR is like comparing Manchester United to the the school's under 12's! For me the best book in the series is Necropolis. The story is very well written, the action free flowing and they way it moves the whole saga on is great. But as a LotR nay chance!


Simply posted my opinion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Well in my opinion the Gaunts Ghosts are to Sci-Fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy, so yeah.


Agreed, and just like Doelago said, it's our opinion, who are you to say its wrong.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Agreed, and just like Doelago said, it's our opinion, who are you to say its wrong.


As stated, many of us think you are wrong. That is our opinion. We are members of heresy, so, on these forums, we have as much a right to say you are wrong as you have to say we are.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Can anyone name a piece of literature (not just warhammer) that is considered, by the majority, 'superior'?



No, you can not 


It all comes down to opinion and on a very shallow level it is simply 'I like this book the best'.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> As stated, many of us think you are wrong.


Many? I have counted two this far.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Many? I have counted two this far.


3 maybe 4 to your 2. That counts as many, relatively speaking.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Only two of you have said we are wrong.

And no ou can't tell me my opinion is wrong. You can disagree with it certainly and express your own opinion, but no one can say someone elses opinion is wrong. 

And for the record did i say Gaunts Ghosts was as good as Lord of the Rings? No i didn't, i agreed that it is to sci-fi as to what LotR is to fantasy. Again who the hell are you to say my own opinion is wrong.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Eisenhorn is a definite front runner for this, but I have yet to read any gaunts ghosts and most people seem to revere them.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

increaso said:


> Can anyone name a piece of literature (not just warhammer) that is considered, by the majority, 'superior'?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...I gue-ess...but I'd love for you to explain your point more. While critical evaluation can be emasculated with the response "well, that's your opinon, but I think _The Divine Comedy_ sucks", I'd be hard-pressed to take such a rebuttal seriously.

It's similar with the angle I see developing in that someone's opinion can't be wrong and they shouldn't be told otherwise; well, of course it can and they can be. If you hold an opinion that flies in the face of fact, your opinion is provably wrong and you possibly should be told for your own education. But that's drifting off-topic. What I would say is that, get people whose lives have been spent in studying literature to read the Ghosts and ask them if they measure up...and they'll say no.

But they'll probably enjoy the hell out of some damn good sci-fi adventure stories in the process!

We're on a bit of an Abnett theme now, so while I'm at - and no, I don't consider it near-literature - I would like to join in with the suggestion of _Titanicus_ to go on people's reading lists if they haven't already, while we're on this subject. Ignoring battle-scenes (which while they are well-written they are largely irrelevant to my point) Abnett's handling of characterisation (admittedly shallowly) and the fable-like use of faith in the novel are the type of things I think of when considering if BL could ever approach 'serious' writing. 

Not that it needs to at all.

<aside>I think there's some mileage in a critical evaluation of some of Abnett's work now; principally the way in which he constructs things and homages other genres/work. Though I'm a bit worried about how many parallels I could draw between the highly-thought-of _Legion_ and _Use of Weapons_ by Iain M. Banks, and how it feels like it might become less 'homage' and more 'awkwardly covers some of the same ground'</aside>.

edit: oh and any opportunity to pimp ADB's work, the man is talented as hell and could easily write an amazing non-BL book (and I hope he does). His characterisation is top-notch, and you gotta love a guy that's trying to get unarguably complex psychology and believable romantic relationships into BL.
And that's also an indicator of the amazing strength of this brand/franchise; that these themes and authorial talents can be explored intelligently and artistically inside what was created as the setting for a grimderp tabletop wargame, and that (in the hands of some of the authors) the material is only going to continue to transcend. It's a good time to be a fan of BL novels.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Only two of you have said we are wrong.
> 
> And no ou can't tell me my opinion is wrong. You can disagree with it certainly and express your own opinion, but no one can say someone elses opinion is wrong.
> 
> And for the record did i say Gaunts Ghosts was as good as Lord of the Rings? No i didn't, i agreed that it is to sci-fi as to what LotR is to fantasy. Again who the hell are you to say my own opinion is wrong.


I assumed the third was implied, but you have me there.

I have not and I will not, kind of. I have said that it is my opinion that you are wrong, but have I said that you are factually wrong? No, it is just my opinion that your assessment is incorrect, it doesn't mean it actually is, just that I think it is. 

You have stated that it has had a similar impact, which I don't think is true.

I am ahab, it is nice to meet you.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

BL will never produce anything that could be classed as superiour literature. That's not what it's there for. There are a (very) few top notch writers in the BL stable, who may go on to bigger and better things, but they'll never write a literary masterpiece for BL.

As an aside, I never really got the whole fascination with LotR. As a fantasy piece IMO it's average at best when compared to the likes of Raymond Feist's _Magician_ or the Wheel of Time series. It's tone is grey and depressing, it's pace is desperatley slow, the characters are bland at best, the action is infrequent, and it's about 300 pages too long.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, opinions differ. I find Wheel of time is shite, didn't read Feist, but heard from some people who did its average at best. Though LOTR is not my Tolkien's favourite book, and there are some fantasy books I like more, like Song of ice and fire.

I agree with a first paragraph.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Tolkein, as far as I am aware, is generally considered Literature due to the fact that it essentially defined a genre while containing deeper themes regarding 'Real Life'. I have read a number of 'Classics' that I consider to have been written poorly, or at least not to the standards of some of the greats, but I cannot deny, when taken in historical context for the time they were written plus the deeper meanings contained within, that they are great works of Literature; just not my favorite.

That being said, I feel Prospero Burns is not only well-written enough, but also contains spectacular plays on self-determination; a theme often associated with great works such as Paradise Lost, Brave New World, and others. Of all of the BL books and stories I have read, that is the only one I would consider true Literature. Church of the Storm might have made the list for me had the ending been disguised better or been tweaked slightly to make the theme either hit home more unexpectedly or hit harder.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Well in my opinion the Gaunts Ghosts are to Sci-Fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy, so yeah.


Not to join in on the ragging against you because you stated your opinion, but I'd humbly posit that, rather, the Gaunts Ghosts series is to Sci-Fi what Sharpe's Rifles is to fantasy. They have very similar overarching themes and the series is structured much the same way. I personally think that in order for that comparison to hold true, the Lord of the Rings would have to be something like...a series following the Rohirrim through their major battles. Mmmm, dreamy imaginations: Theoden as Corbec. "Forth, Eorlingas!"



Khorne's Fist said:


> As an aside, I never really got the whole fascination with LotR. As a fantasy piece IMO it's average at best when compared to the likes of Raymond Feist's _Magician_ or the Wheel of Time series. It's tone is grey and depressing, it's pace is desperatley slow, the characters are bland at best, the action is infrequent, and it's about 300 pages too long.


...whoa whoa whoa. Those are your complaints about the Lord of the Rings, and you're saying the Wheel of Time is _better_?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Mossy Toes said:


> ...whoa whoa whoa. Those are your complaints about the Lord of the Rings, and you're saying the Wheel of Time is _better_?


I'll admit the pace of the WoT slowed dramatically from book 7 when it became apparent that Jordan had painted himself into a corner, but the characters are well developed, there is a good smathering of action, and with Sanderson having pulled it all back together in the last two books, it is finally reaching it's epic conclusion. 

Having said that, I am now half way through the 2nd book of _A Song of Ice and Fire,_ and it truely is refreshing to see someone almost race through a story to get to the good bits. He's certainly not afraid to kill off main characters either. The contrast from this series to LotR or WoT is stunning.



> I'd humbly posit that, rather, the Gaunts Ghosts series is to Sci-Fi what Sharpe's Rifles is to fantasy. They have very similar overarching themes and the series is structured much the same way.


Couldn't be more true. The Sharpe series is excellent, and it's no surprise that they would act as a template for other genres, especially one that contains the possibility of a tight knit band of elite light infantry marksmen.


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## Phil73805 (Feb 28, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> _Prospero Burns_ is one of the first BL books that I truly consider literature. It's a deep, broad-rooted, wholly perception-altering view of 30k and 40k, and I was deeply enriched in reading it.


Amen. Well said sir.


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Simply posted my opinion.


and i was expressing mine and we differ. No problem here please move on :so_happy:


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