# "Invocation" really that powerful?



## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

Sorry if this is in the wrong spot. It maybe should go in the rules discussion.

My brother just got the new Vampire Codex. And on the first turn of our game he raised 35(!!!) models. Let me set the scene...

I cast Fulminating Flame Cage on his unit of grave guard. The initial attack did no damage, but when it came to his turn he moved them. He took 6 wounds on his unit of 20. To get the wounds back he cast "Invocation of Nehek" from his master necromancer riding a corspe cart. The necromancer cast the first level version. (6 inch range) and revived all the grave guard. (All he needed was a 2 or more because of being a lvl 4 mage) Normally he would cast Invocation on just his grave guard. And raise them to full again. But because it targets all units within 6 inches he hit 4 other units. Raising each of them by 9 each (average).

He took an upgrade that let him raise units above starting size. And the necromancer did cost him 450 (some odd) points. But still... 35 models!

Are we doing something wrong? Or are vampires just that powerful now?

Edit: Got "vampire" and "necromancer" messed up.


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## DecrepitDragon (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm afraid that what you're describing is very possibly correct. Except for the fact that what you refer to as vampire, should in fact be a Master Necromancer.

When the spell is cast, all units within 6" (at the lowest power rating) will be healed a number of D6, plus the casters level, in ressurected models.

There are restrictions however - the D6 is only for infantry, for example.

It sounds to me though as if your opponent just got a little lucky - and be fair to yourself too - its a new spell after all.

Hope that clarifies. :victory:


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

A Vampire (Lord) cannot ride a Corpse Cart.
A Vampire (Lord) cannot acquire the Master of the Dead power.
A Master Necromancer could easily be outfitted that way though.

Otherwise, yes. If your opponent gets lucky he could very well be able to raise a lot of models with one casting of Invocation if all the units would be within target range of the spell.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

In theroy it is that powerful. On the tabletop though it should be easy to keep it under control if you throw all your anti-magic against it. That's how I kept it shutdown previously. It's not easy though. With xp you'll find ways to combat it though.


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## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

Abomination said:


> In theroy it is that powerful. On the tabletop though it should be easy to keep it under control if you throw all your anti-magic against it. That's how I kept it shutdown previously. It's not easy though. With xp you'll find ways to combat it though.


I thought that because it was a simple 6+ to cast spell I should let it go through and save my dis-spell dice for another more powerful spell. Invocation just seems to powerful for a "signature easy cast" spell.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

easy cast means easy dispel... you just have to know what is worth dispelling and what is worth saving dice for. I had the balance right against old vampires, but haven't played new vampires yet: in the old rules I just let through high rolling invocations and saved dice for low rolled invocations... but always keeping a couple dice until the end of the phase (last few power dice) so that they would never be able to spam a few raises without opposition. In the end I would normally face 1-2 successful casts raising 5-10 models but nothing more... which was pretty easy to fend off.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Android089 said:


> I thought that because it was a simple 6+ to cast spell I should let it go through and save my dis-spell dice for another more powerful spell. Invocation just seems to powerful for a "signature easy cast" spell.


Invocation is the lifeblood of the VC army, so it really _*is*_ a powerfull spell even at basic casting values.
Keep in mind how VC fight; a purely close combat army, yet with the game's worst Ld and most its weakest combat units. (sounds really odd, I know!)

The new VC lore is devastatingly effect and there is not a single 'useless' spell in there;
Sig Spell = Invocation. It'll do all the raising with an are effect now, basically doing with 1 cast what we did before with multiple casts from the same wizard.
The range is always equal to it's casting value, either 6" ---> 12" ---> 18"
ALL Infantry come back at D6 + caster's Lv, while vampire, large & ethereal units come back just 1 per cast. Everything else comes back 1+caster's Lv. (ie; black knights & crypt horrors)

Vanhel's Danse = extra movement + re-rolls in combat untill the start of the next VC magic phase. Even better than before, despite not being able to magically charge! Both effects in just 1 casting synergise really well for undead infantry as they should never be charging to begin with!
The movement aspect simply allows the army to march like everyone else and set-up for those flank/rear attcks

Hellish Vigor = re-rolls to-wound. Undead are almost universally stuck at S3/4 across the board untill you hit the rare section. (hexwraiths & varghiests are S5 & Special choices however)
Again, with only limited amounts of great weapons and charging lances, this spell helps negate one of the VC's biggest weakness; being able to inflict meaningfull damage outside of characters & expensive rares.

Gaze of Nagash = basic magic missile spell. It's better than the BRB versions, but then VC's have no real shooting outside of short-ranged screams, so this will hurt a wee bit!

Raise Dead = create a new unit of zombies or power it up and get skittles instead! And without the penalty of handing away 'free' VP's either htis time too! (because only in the last book did that ever happen.)
Zombies especially are now dangerous to allow to be summoned, since they get even more models back per invocation. (scary, isn't it?!) You'll actually raise anywhere between 7-27 + caster's Lv worth of zombies with raise dead + 1x invocation! (told you it was scary)

Curse of Years = how VC's can deal with 'uber deathstars & elite hordes like Khornate Marauders or Temple Guard.
Remember, VC's have 0 war machines or big templates to flatten stuff with, so this is how we go about it, with a 'remains in play' spell that gets progressively worse the longer it's effect lasts.

Wind of Death = how VC's deal with 'rank buses'. You know, those cheap chaff units that rank-up 5 or 6 wide and then build 7+ ranks deep to keep the steadfast bonus?!
The more ranks you have, the more this spell hurts you



Every VC spell is highly dangerous and is also pretty easy to cast with Lv3/4 wizards. Why? because VC use just a magic phase to do what everyone else can do with their magic _*and *_shooting phases.
Weathering the VC magic phase is about knowing which spells are most crucial to the army in the coming turn. If they've taken some decent damage or it's the first turn, then you need to stop those invos to prevent the hordes from re-growing/increasing. If they're in combat or close to it, put the kibash on vanhel's & vigor to deny them the units their re-rolls. If you're currently rocking alot of deeply ranked units to ensure steadfast, don't let wind of death through before you get a chance to reform a bit!

VC's will always get some spells through because we have alot of abilities/items that give us control over our magic dice pools, so you'll never really be able to shut down a VC phase completely... (okay, Empire & Dwarfs can, but they can still cheat!)
Experience will teach you what key spells to stop each turn as you get better at evaluating what the VC army is planning each turn!


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I have a feeling it will take a few months of play and regular builds to combat the new VC effectively. They have arrived and hit hard so far.... BUT things I have noticed..

1). Fear was seen till last week as a bit of a "who cares now" routine toward VC. This has changed dramatically. People need to think this through when building a list now more than ever.

2). VC magic is powerful, as it should be for an army with NO ranged attacks. The example above with so many things so close together is screaming where are the mortars? where are the templates? where is the cavalry models? where is your artillery?

3). Vampires are still reliant on 1 to 2 characters getting things done, whether it be leadership, magic or other roles. Without the characters they will fail. The hex wraith bogeyman that has been set up fails miserably with the few games I have seen played thus far due to this alone if an opposing general thinks things through.

Are they tough? yep... should they be? Damn right... are they with weakness... always have been with zero shooting... and high priority vamp lord targets waiting for cannon, snipers, magic and others..... things still die to cracks call, 13th spell, suns, steam tanks, ogre just about anything, caskets of sorcerey, dark elf daggers and assassins, teclis..... and a PLETHORA of other things. Just think your list through!

Lexi.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Bear in mind that any Wizard in the army using the Lore of Vampires can halt crumbling; killing the army general results in a single round of crumbling, and from then onwards another wizard takes the strain and becomes the new "general". No longer can cannon-snipes on turn one instantly ruin the game for the VC player.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> No longer can cannon-snipes on turn one instantly ruin the game for the VC player.


No, but I bet the Hellheart still can, and anyone with one cannon has more than one cannon, so it's still a viable strategy to try and nobble the casters if that's the kind of army you're playing.

It very much looks like the Characters are still as much a VC weakness as a strength. Which is no bad thing.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Cannon sniping the general (and likely highest lv mage) still gets you some sweet bonuses and makes the magic phase so much easier to control (both yours and the VC's). Its no longer auto-win but that can only be a good thing, as anyone who had killed a vamp general in turns 1-2 can surely agree with.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> Cannon sniping the general (and likely highest lv mage) still gets you some sweet bonuses and makes the magic phase so much easier to control (both yours and the VC's). Its no longer auto-win but that can only be a good thing, as anyone who had killed a vamp general in turns 1-2 can surely agree with.


I doubt the general will be that high level a wizard anymore honestly... The fact that we can individually buy levels allows us to run a cheap general and then support them with either a Master Necromancer or a beefier Lord
Plus, the Ghoul King exists now and he's going to be rather popular and yet can only ever be a Lv1 wizard.

I find overall that our magic is now spread out alot more evenly across the army - losing 1 model doesn't leave us with a pile of Lv1's anymore!
It's actually quite viable and fairly easy to run a Lv2 Lord as the general, support him with a Lv3 or 4 Necro Master and sprinkle a couple of Lv1 or 2's wizards through the heroes alotment.

Sure aiming for the VC general is still a very viable tactic, but it's not going to impact our magic phase nearly as much anymore since we have more than 1 lord option now!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well that sounds quite cool... but after playing a game against the new VC yesterday I have to say I was shocked to find they can only march if they themselves are vamps or if within range of the general. Not being allowed to march even when you have a vamp in your unit might change things quite a bit...


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

They took away some things and gave some things. The Helm that allowed a vamp to give its WS to a unit in range was taken away. Danse no longer can be used to make a magical charge and give ASF. The loss of the Drak. (regen banner) is very big for some armies. They also took away the overpowered winds spell and replaced it with a vortex. They reduced the number of models created by raise dead. They limited marching to within range of the general or a unit that is vampiric. They increased the points costs of crypt ghouls (to a fair price for what they can do). They also took wight blades (magical attacks) from grave guard and black guard. They changed the black coach (no longer eats up power dice and takes longer to generate extra levels on it). They also change master of the dark arts (can't generate extra power dice but can boost Nehek casts by +D3) and reduce the number of vampiric powers and magic items a lot (increasing the costs of some of them).

On the positive side:
They lowered points costs for skellies and gave them some options, like master of the dead on a master necro. Made zombies S3 T3 with no shambling horde rule and reasonable points cost given the ability to use Nehek to raise 2D6+ level and grow them above starting size. The gave use crypt horrors and vargheists. 

They changed Nehek and turned necros into dedicated wizards. The Nehek on the master necromanscer with master of the dead (able to raise units of skellies, as well as zombies) is huge, as is the area effect on all units (not ethereal and not vampiric) and the D6+level boost to infantry (instead of D6 to one unit) and 1+ level for non-infantry units (not ethereal, vampiric or large). What this means is that you dispel the Nehek cast by the master necro, especially early on if he can regrow skellies and zombies abofe their starting sizes, but probably let ones cast by the other characters through if they affect fewer units or units with few wounds that can be regrown. 

I'd rather let many of the other spells get through than Nehek early on and when in combat with units in range of that spell. A large block of zombies, now S3 and T3, augmented to re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound and able to keep regrowing 2D6+ level zombies every time Nehek is in range becomes a very viable tar pit/anvil that can slow up and wear down enemy units (even win combats against skaven slaves and clanrats and those units are depleted while the zombies keep getting regrown faster than they crumble). 

A fairly standard, cost=effective character build-out is one master necro (lvl 3 or lvl 4)with master of the dead in a skelly bunker with full command and ethereal wraith heroes to fill out the front rank and limit damage in combat from non-magical attacks and to allow the necro to be hidden and a vamp lord well protected (lvl1 or 2 only) and a vamp BSB well protected (lvl 1 or 2). The vamps cast Nehek and, if lvl 2, maybe one other spell for the lore attibute for them with the Book of Arkan on one character. That way one has three Neheks, two Danses, and a healthy mix of the rest of the lore with focus on Danse and Hellish Vigor and maybe raise dead as primary spells and most of the miscast risk is absorbed by the master necro (give him earthing rod).


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

The only problem with taking lots of ethereal heroes is that you won't have the other heroes who I find bring alot more to the table;
- Thralls are much better generalists now with the stat boost they've recieved plus they've got much better synergies with the new powers & being able to buy basic options like equipment/magic levels.

- Necros provide more access to cheap invo-spaming, especially when combined with a mortis engine!
They can also be used as cheap hex or direct damage batteries with the cursed book and/or death magic.

- Wight Kings are cheap & highly resiliant fighters who have one of the most beastly 'Hero' level stat lines! (T5/W3 with access to magic armour)
They also come with killing blow as standard and thus make better character killer than the ethereals.


I'm not saying the ethereal heroes are crap or anything! Just that I don't think it's all that good an indea to bulk-out an entire unit's front rank with them as you're gaining a gimmick but denying yourself alot of the built-in synergies VC's now have.

Sure it may be fun to try once or twice for shits and giggles, but outside of that, I'd never see myself playing that tactic - I want the other stuff first!


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

It was actually developing into a strategy after the White Dwarf amendments in September. I saw it at a large Indy GT in November being run by multiple VC armies. I'm not necessarily sold on it, but it is a strategy used by Ogres (full command plus other characters in rank one to allow the BSB and a naked caster in rank two to avoid combat for a while). Using lvl 1 necros instead does not help as much as ethereals in that they are more easily killed unless you want to spend a lot of magic points on them. You are investing in say three to five ethereals with a champ, music and standard in order to ensure that the master necro stays in the second row reliably. It is not cheap. I'm tempted to say that the master necro bunker is probably better protected by being run right behind another unit and with units on each flank; all able to be regrown with the master necro and other casters spamming Nehek. 

The Wight King with T5 and 3 wounds is still great for a BSB, but conservative of points on characters and the desire to cast Nehek, access to vamp powers (like beguile) with the lore attribute may cause some to favour the Vamp BSB.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

The biggest issue with why it's dumb to run a tournament list full of front rank ethereal creatures; Daemons, Skaven, High Elves, Wood Elves, Chaos Knights, Grail Knights, half the TK shooters, anyone with access to the lores of fire or light and plenty more will laugh at you!

Some people seem to think there's a lack of magical attacks in this game. They're surprisingly easy to come by actually.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

But them some people play with ogres, WE and shooty lizards... some idiots do all 3.

I would hate to see that unit on the tabletop, but if I did it would instantly go int the pile of 'avoid and ignore', along with things like shrine'd chosen. Some units you just can't shift and have to avoid... luckily for me while I don't normally have much in the way of offensive magic/magic attacks I do love to have highly mobile armies, so I normally just dodge anything too nasty to fight. It does mean suffering the magic being churned out by a unit though...


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> But them some people play with ogres, WE and shooty lizards... some idiots do all 3.
> 
> I would hate to see that unit on the tabletop, but if I did it would instantly go int the pile of 'avoid and ignore', along with things like shrine'd chosen. Some units you just can't shift and have to avoid... luckily for me while I don't normally have much in the way of offensive magic/magic attacks I do love to have highly mobile armies, so I normally just dodge anything too nasty to fight. It does mean suffering the magic being churned out by a unit though...


Shooty lizards are the only army there that will be outright forced to avoid the ethereal front rank;
- I've yet to see a WE army in 8th that doesn't have 'oodles of forest spirits!
- Ogres have firebellies, yetees and the ability to take the same cheap 5pts magic weapons like everyone else!

At the very least, the new VC's and our ability to field a terribly gimmicky ethereal circus will encourage people to move away from Lv4 shadow/life spam. Now there's damn good reasons for players to take a fighty hero or two with cheap magic weapons in their main units and perhaps consider something as awful as taking a Lv2 lore of fire or light wizard!

If someone comes to the table with 0 magical attacks of any kind when they're so readily available, they deserve to get roflstomped by an equally gimmicky and overall crap army like 'pure ethereal' or 'ethereal skeletons'.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> Shooty lizards are the only army there that will be outright forced to avoid the ethereal front rank;
> - I've yet to see a WE army in 8th that doesn't have 'oodles of forest spirits!
> - Ogres have firebellies, yetees and the ability to take the same cheap 5pts magic weapons like everyone else!


Sounds believable... until you give it a second thought and realise that none of that actually works (oh, with the possible exception of treekin... but they are the least seen of the forest spirits, I'm not counting wild riders).

Fact is that if you block off the front of your unit with ethereals some armies would just laugh at you and crush your overly expensive unit... but most would be pretty screwed. That doesn't mean they couldn't fight/defeat that unit, just that it would require a very good general using very good tactics (and probably getting a little lucky). But then luck is always a part of this game: I remember being very happy back in 7th when my yhetees finally manged to charge some cairnwraith.... only to fluff their attacks, break and get run down.


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