# Codex Astartes - Good or Bad?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I'm just wondering what are peoples opinions of the Codex Astartes? That is the restructuring of the Legions into Chapters after the Heresy.

Say you were a Primarch, member of the Imperial Council, a high ranking general or even just a regular grunt ... what would your opinion of it be?

I'd ask that people answer this in two ways:


1. From the perspective of the fluff, i.e the Heresy has just occurred, the Imperium is shattered and exhausted and you don't know how things will turn out.

2. From the perspective of our knowledge of how things pan out, has it been a success?


I actually think it's a very tough question.

On the one hand the Legions built the Imperium, but they also brought its knees aswell.

My own answers are.


1. As a High Lord I would have actually welcomed the reform, as it eliminated the potential for one person, such as a Primarch, to rebel and then take his entire Legion with him, as happened during the Heresy.

My biggest problem with it though would have been that by its very nature it seems defensive. Its almost an ackowledgement that another Great Crusade would never emerge, and that the Imperium would forever be on the defensive. The Astartes are now like firemen, rushing from sector to sector, where there is the most trouble. Rather than taking the fight to the enemy,

2. Overall I think that the Codex Astartes and dissolution of the Legions into Chapters has been a positive thing, as in many ways has the disapperance of the Primarchs themselves. 

The Imperium is based on humanity, not genetically modified super soldiers, and the limiting of the power of the Astartes, has in many ways made the Imperium ... more human, if that makes sense.

Humanity itself now has to adapt to its enemies, it cannot rely on demi-gods of science fighting its battles while it reeps in the rewards.


Thats my opinion anyway.

What say you?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

My opinions are pretty much the same as yours. Whilst like you said they are adopting a defensive formation, do they really have the resources to do anything other?


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

At the time it was likely needed and even though not all of the primarch's agreed or wanted it..they did it to provide a unified front after such loss. I think in the current 40k time certain really isolated areas could benefit from allowing the chapter to increase in size. I think the Idea that the Astral Claws had was at its heart sound the problem was they did it through deceit and lies. 


Doc


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## darkbubba (Apr 20, 2011)

I think that tactically the chapters are a good idea. 1000 per chapter times 1000 men is more than equal or the same as the legions. For morale the chapters allow individual personality and tactical flexibility as some chapters have different strengths than other chapters.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Bah! The Space Wolves don't care for rules! They only care for the well-being of the helpless people, and they won't let Imperial authorities, or ancient books get in their way!


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Codex astarte, the tatcial parts, has help the imperium and made sure that when planing a attack all marines are "on the same page" but the reorgnzation was horrific.

it was a exterm answere to the problem and it acknowled that marines, the genetic super troopers are as included to heresy as guardsmen. I mean some countrol had to in place, heck in the US army we rotate are offcers round to keep the troops from getting more loyal to them then the prsident. but we don't split are regiments into there own self contained units like the impeirum has.

between all the interchapter wars they caused more damage then some Wagghs. marine do not defect offten enough to warrent that it was one speical case and one never replcated. you could argue that was due to the reforms, but there has also never been another great crusade and the Imperium is dieing. it was a bandage solution and one that has failed. with the old legions you had better cordnation between grand companys then you do between chapters so the Leagions could handel bigger battles, longer and effectivly patrol and control large swaths of space, I say if the Ultramarines were Legion sized they could likley hack out a area of space 20 time that of the current Ultramsector.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Honestly, I'm fine with the Codex Astartes being implemented, but I like to think that even in the 41st millenium, adherence to it is based in two camps of chapters and those chapters in between.

The first camp espouses strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, not just its organizational doctrines, but also its many, many, _many_ tactical and strategic doctrines. In so doing, these Codex chapters have a solution for pretty much everything right off the bat, but they have the potential to become hidebound in their thinking; why come up with a new solution, when the Codex already explains how to solve a given problem in the best possible fashion? Of course, once new enemies such as the Tau, the Tyranids, and the Necrons start showing up, _that's_ when chapters such as these start coming up with new stuff, and even then, there will likely be interchapter dissent; there certainly was with the creation of the Ultramarines' Tyrannic War Veterans, after all. Chapters who view the Codex Astartes in a religious light are squarely in this camp; this naturally includes the Ultramarines but also includes chapters such as the Genesis and Novamarines chapters.

The second camp simply does not follow the Codex at all, or is wildy divergent from it. You know who fits in here: Black Templars, Space Wolves, and the Astral Claws during the Badab War (IA9: Tyrant's Legion). There's not much to explain about these fellows, except that they do what seems to work for them. On the one hand, this can encourage innovative and creative tactics, but on the other hand, they can fall into the trap of being hidebound even sooner than Codex chapters, convinced that a single strategy will win every engagement. If you're wondering where I get that assumption, it should be noted that chapters in this camp are few and far between, and the two that get the spotlight, the Black Templars and the Space Wolves, are very close-combat centered.

Not all Chapters fit into one camp or the other; in fact, the vast majority don't. This includes chapters that adhere only broadly to the Codex Astartes, such as the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and also the Sons of Medusa, Minotaurs, Space Sharks, etc. The standards laid down by the Codex are nothing if not malleable. Indeed, Roboute Guilliman did not intend for chapters to adhere so strictly to it (_Rules of Engagement_, I believe); I note a bit of dramatic irony as the Ultramarines, _his_ legion, end up doing just that.

But to answer the question directly, I believe the splitting of legions into chapters was a good idea, yes. The threat of Chaos was and still is everywhere and like an infectious disease (Nurgle notwithstanding), it needed to be quarantined as best as one could. The strategies and tactics outlined in the Codex were also sound. In the 41st millenium, however, strict adherence to the Codex will not save a Chapter from defeat, nor will shunning it entirely.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I really dislike the idea in the general sense.

In a tactical sense, with the special tactics being implemented, I think it was a smart idea.

But this is where I stand differently compared to most people. 1000 astartes? Really? Why the hell would one limit the power of your strongest force/s during its most desperate time?

Sorry but I really don't see how I could be possibly wrong with seeing the fault of just having a bunch of divided forces during this time in the Imperium's history. Its pretty much an "I told you so." You have Chaos breaking lose in Cadia, you don't have a force strong enough to fight the C'tan, you don't have force strong enough to hold the Tyranids. The Chapters? Obviously the wrong answer.

But I'm not blind by other people's opinion. The old "well... look at what happened before?" But the problem with those questions, is simply, the "What if..."


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

I know the pros of it, but I think the pros of legions far outweigh it. In the beginning I think it was the correct choice but now limiting chapters to 1000 when some have the ability to go higher is a poor choice. Your purposefully limiting your best fighting strength in a war that your losing. In war risks must be taken. With 1000 man chapters you are doing nothing but losing the war. The codex astartes needs to be burned and 1000 chapters need to start working on becoming legions of 10,000+


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm of the opinion that if you want more Marines then just create more chapters.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

It's a good thing. As a guide it's immensely useful. I think it's tactically viable against almost anyone, including enemies Guilli didn't even meet, like the Tyranids or Tau. It wouldn't mention them specifically, but I can imagine something about when facing "numerically superior, expendable melee troops do..." or something along the lines of that.

As for breaking up the Legions? Probably a good idea, too.

And there's nothing intrinsically defensive about it. We've seen multiple chapters group up to wage war. Sometimes more harmoniously than other times, but when we had multiple Legions acting in concert we had problems, too (Russ and the Lion, Angron in general...).


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

I choose neutral
Let the pretty boys have their codex to keep them warm at night.
Go ahead and defend your rock, it is a good thing.
But I'm gonna just forge ahead and take the fight to the enemies of the imperium! 
Fuck their precious book, Black Templars will continue the Emperor's true goal, as it was before Horus soo rudely interrupted! The galaxy shall be ours!


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

The biggest problem as many have said is being limited to 1,000 troops. They have the mentality of sending bits of their chapter at a time to answer a problem while leaving the rest back home. This would be alright if sending a couple hundred marines wasn't 1/3 of your total army, the legions could afford to send hundreds of guys and know that in the off chance they couldn't handle it or they wanted more for a second front they could send hundreds more to help out. They lost the unity of a large fighting unit and have sunk to the point where they have convinced themselves that 30 of them can save the galaxy themselves.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

Cowlicker16 said:


> they have convinced themselves that 30 of them can save the galaxy themselves.


there is somthing to that, in Dawn of war II it was only 30 marines, tops, that fended off hive fleet, Ork Waaghh, eldar attack, and later (though they got reinforced) stopped attack by chaos marines. so there is somthing to this. with out the Legeon backing them up they have become a army of heros. I am sure that any one of a modern marine could likely become a captain of a old legion who sacficed a bit of this supper hummerism for numbers.

That said if given the choice between 30 super-mega warriors or 300 "normal" super troopers, I go for the 300 just for the Dakka.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree that it functions as a great basis for the SM but my problem is that it doesn't allow for improvisation(SP). As can bee seen with what happened to Uriel Venteris of the 4th Company in the SM books. His decisoins while not to the codex format were brilliant and saved lives nd imperial planets but he was still punished.


Doc


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

_"Yes - It was necessary for the Imperium to survive."_ Without a doubt.



JelloSea said:


> With 1000 man chapters you are doing nothing but losing the war. The codex astartes needs to be burned and 1000 chapters need to start working on becoming legions of 10,000+


There is a vast difference between the Imperium of the Crusade-era and the Imperium of the post-Scouring era in military terms. The Imperium of the Crusade-era spread out from Terra almost at an incomprehensible speed, the Astartes Legions obviously spearheading the assault. Astartes forces the size of Legions were needed for this task, Chapters during the Great Crusade would have been useless.

The Imperium of the post-Scouring era was in a very different position. It had just fought a devastating civil war which it had barely survived, and then throughout the Scouring had driven the remaining rebels from most of its territory. The Imperium now became focussed on defence rather than offence. Legions were no longer needed.

The flexible nature of Chapters brought about by the Codex reformed the very purpose of the Astartes (as was needed), more akin now to rapid reaction forces rather than all-consuming Legions capable of subduing entire empires and civilisations. The Imperium no longer needed Legions in military terms, and the paranoia that had been rooted across the Imperium since the Heresy dictated that no longer were individuals at the heads of vast Legions of Astartes to be trusted. The fall of a Legion-sized Astartes force to Chaos could have proved to be just too costly for the Imperium to endure.

Thus Chapter-sized forces of Astartes were much more sensible and reflected the change of military philosophy in the Imperium. Some people seem to assume that reforming the Legions at the expense of the Chapters would automatically put the Imperium at a strong advantage, which is laughable. They look at the Legions as near-unstoppable military forces of an age forgotten and assume they would bring the Imperium of the _"current"_ incredible advantages (some even seem to suggest it would be an auto _"I win button"_). But what they fail to recognise is the change in military philosophy and the danger that would be posed by such forces. 

They also seem to look past the fact that even if the Legions were reformed, their forces would still need to be scattered throughout the stars to act as the current Chapters do. Therefore making them even more pointless. But also that when a campaign or conflict requires the use of more than a Chapter's worth of Astartes, more than one Chapter can be used in unison. We have countless examples of such. The most prominent probably being the long-standing _Astartes Praeses_.

The Imperium is in a much more stable position with Chapters rather than Legions. 



Gree said:


> I'm of the opinion that if you want more Marines then just create more chapters.


Exactly.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Of course it is bloody necessary. 

And CoTE, +rep.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I like the codex as a tactical guide, not a set of rules that must be strictly adhered to. The idea of every space marine chapter in the galaxy using the same set of tactics is not really feasible and would therefore mean any intelligent foe in a war against the Imperium would be able to account for how the Astartes would fight. I prefer it that the chapters are able to refer to the Codex for advice, but can do their own "outside-the-box" thinking when the situation arises.
Concerning chapter layout, again I believe the Codex is merely a guideline that chapters can choose to deviate from to suit their own preferences such as the DAs and BAs. However, I do prefer the idea of autonomous companies such as the Wolves (or to some extent the Raven Guard) as it means the chapter can function better when seperated rather than relying on support from the first company or tenth company, which can be easily depleted if there are heavy casualties or large demand.
With regard to the splitting of the Legions, I think it was necessary, but were the primarchs still around I would say to reform the Legions, but with independent companies that although are under overall control of the primarch, can function independently, like SW Great Companies. This therefore maximises the leadership of the primarchs, the power of the legion and the flexibility of the chapter.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think that the codex astartes was necessary for the imperium to survive for a period of time. However I think what has let the codex down was when the chapters, especially the Ultramarines, began to think that the scriptures written were non-negotiable and this has left them vulnerable on more than one occasion (Tyranids invading Macragge being a prime example). 

I think that the codex should have been used when the Imperium was defending itself during the Scouring. However once the immeadiate threat was over they should keep the chapter organisation but occassionally form a bunch of chapters into 1 or 2 legions to go on a crusade and capture a couple of key areas of interest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> I like the codex as a tactical guide, not a set of rules that must be strictly adhered to.


And with _Rules of Engagement_, we see that was its original intention. Its not necessarily Guilliman's fault that the Codex has evolved into a strict set of tactical rules (never to be broken) considering that wasn't its original intention.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Concerning chapter layout, again I believe the Codex is merely a guideline that chapters can choose to deviate from to suit their own preferences such as the DAs and BAs.





Stephen_Newman said:


> However once the immeadiate threat was over they should keep the chapter organisation but occassionally form a bunch of chapters into 1 or 2 legions to go on a crusade and capture a couple of key areas of interest.


Thats just not practical. You can't really have a *guideline* for Chapter organisation, where a Chapter chooses to adhere to it or not. Its either the absolute rule, or its basically pointless. All or nothing folks.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> With regard to the splitting of the Legions, I think it was necessary, but were the primarchs still around I would say to reform the Legions, but with independent companies that although are under overall control of the primarch, can function independently, like SW Great Companies. This therefore maximises the leadership of the primarchs, the power of the legion and the flexibility of the chapter.


Why? The Primarchs (just like any other individual) were not beyond corruption. Are you forgetting that (at least) nine turned from the Imperium and embraced Heresy?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

No, but the ones that did not turn traitor would have less motivation to do so after the Heresy as they see what would befall all that they have strived to protect. And to say that you can't have a guideline for chapter organisation, well that has occurred already with the non-codex chapters so it is not that impractical.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I am actually curious as to what everyone thinks would have happened if the Heresy failed to start/not as many legions turned traitor and the the Imperium with it's Emperor could have been preserved for a much longer time with much less damage.

Do you think the Codex would have still been penned? If the Heresy never happened, the Imperium would have been on the defensive indefinitely, and perhaps Chapters would be be effective at dealing with the little threats?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I think that the codex astartes was necessary for the imperium to survive for a period of time. However I think what has let the codex down was when the chapters, especially the Ultramarines, began to think that the scriptures written were non-negotiable


Except we already have sources that tell us that the Codex does change and evolve.

5th Edition Marine Codex.



> The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history


Index Malleus



> Blane's work was to be integrated into the Codex Astartes, but upon reviewing the data the Iron Fathers of the Iron Hands Chapter objected strongly enough that the notion was set aside.


Blane was an IF Techmarine, the Imperial Fists being the second most Codex Chapter after the Ultramarines.



Stephen_Newman said:


> and this has left them vulnerable on more than one occasion (Tyranids invading Macragge being a prime example).


How did it leave them vulnerable? I don't see the Ultramarines doing any worse or better than a non-Codex chapter in that battle.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats just not practical. You can't really have a *guideline* for Chapter organisation, where a Chapter chooses to adhere to it or not. Its either the absolute rule, or its basically pointless. All or nothing folks.QUOTE]
> 
> Actually you can. I think that flexibility in the strcuture of an army is very vital. It is quite often the case in history that when not on the attack units are quite likely to sit in one particular area and defend it for their empire. Kinda like the chapters of current. However when on the attack it is the norm for several such defensive forces to band together and fight together. This could not only strengthen bonds of friendship but make sure that the forces in general have experiance in all fields at certain times, kinda like the legions of M31.
> 
> ...


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## the Autarch (Aug 23, 2009)

it worked then but i think that if chapter size was increased the imperium would be in a better position now...


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Again. Can't remember where but it is known that Clagar faced the Tyranids on Prandium and used a battle line that was very strictly codex in formation and how it operated. It got slaughtered. It was a short time afterwards when Calgar realised that the chapter did utilise an over-reliance on using the codex and failed to act on its own initiative at times.


I'm afraid I've never heard of that in any account of the Tyranid War. Calgar engaged the Tyranids at Cold Steel Ridge on Macragge, but his defeat in that battle was not due to any failing of the Codex. Prandium recieves only a brief mention in the 4th and 5th edition Tyranid Codices and it's not even mentioned in the 5th edition Marine Codex.

Frnakly, the idea of the Ultramarines being hidebound with the Codex really only came from McNeill's writings. Prior to that, the Codex was never presented as a weakness or drawback of any kind. Indeed it's hard for me to see how when such a document changes and evolves according to tactical needs.

I don't think the Codex Astartes has the perfect solution for every situation. A force using the Codex Astartes is not guaranteed to win, and may still be defeated. But I do think that using the Codex Astartes will be beneficial in all situations, and I do not think there will be situations where relying on the Codex Astartes would be detrimental. It may not adress certain situations (like the Tyranids when they were completely unknown), but in such instances it will simply be of no use, it will not be detrimental. 

Once the Tyranids have been fought, new data and treatises on their tactics will be added to the Codex and things will change and adapt. This is nothing new for the Codex as we have had multiple statements in the fluff talking about how the Codex evolves and changes over time from the minds of military thinkers throughout history.



the Autarch said:


> it worked then but i think that if chapter size was increased the imperium would be in a better position now...


I'll say it again. If you want more Space Marines than just make more chapters.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

I think the chapter thing is good. It is mentioned a few time in the Heresy books, but it is a royal bitch to supply a space marine legion. It was a royal bitch back when the Imperium was doing 'good' during the crusades; could you imagine trying to get supplies to 10,000 strong army force, that eats through ammo and fuel like it's not there? 

Also, it is hard to move around those 10,000 marines. Even if the legions are broken down in to companies (1,000 if I'm correct), that would be the equivalent of an entire chapter going to war, a big deal.

One last thing, since there are such fewer marines, does that means they are better (I bet this has been asked before)? Fluff wise it seems that a chapter of marines invading a planet if a massive a massive amount of firepower, something used rarely. But a legion of 10,000 marines invading was normal. And it seems as the same result is accomplished.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Again. Can't remember where but it is known that Clagar faced the Tyranids on Prandium and used a battle line that was very strictly codex in formation and how it operated. It got slaughtered. It was a short time afterwards when Calgar realised that the chapter did utilise an over-reliance on using the codex and failed to act on its own initiative at times.



As it has been said before, apparently in the early days of the Tyranid attack on Macragge Calgar "...achieved great success in the early days of the campaign."

And that "Under the Swarmlord's dominion the swarm adapted to defeat Calgar's tactics as quickly as the Master of Macragge developed them."

How one applies the tenants of the Codex can vary greatly from each individual. The Codex embraces all tactical ideas and weighs the merits and demerits of each action against a particular enemy. It's like a massive cheat guide to battlefield tactics. Not a strict mold that people pour their forces into.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Aagh! It is annoying me as to where I found it but I remember one passage where it directly relates that Calgar declares that "the Ultramarines were guilty of the sin of pride. And that their plans against the Tyranids would never work because when the blessed primarch wrote the blessed tome (Index Astartes) that he had no prior knowledge of the Tyranid threat."

I will find it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> I'm of the opinion that if you want more Marines then just create more chapters.


I disagree, this is just to general and simplistic to say. Chapters are limited in too many ways, especially man power. And it is exactly with Chapters that the astartes have been able to me more diminished within the Imperium. 

Think of it like this. They only have 1000 astartes. Whenever they go into several engagements, they are even dividing their Chapter into more pieces and fragments from which they broken down even more. 

For your sake of the argument... sure, why not just make another Chapter... fuck it. Right? But it still doesn't solve the issue of having astartes organizations that are limited with what type of power they hold. They are still limited. 

You could have several divided chapters that disagree on tactic, each other, and are just divided. Or you can combine them to have a single purpose and make them work more coherentely, with the unstoppable power of a legion. 

Yet, whats worse is having these chapters switch alliegences against the Imperium. Because they are a Chapter, it makes it a lot easier to gain influence and taint the Chapter. 

With legions, it wouldn't be the same, because the Legions would require too much influence. If there was heresy, which would happen realistically, it would probably be at most on a company scale. The respect and authority of the legion taking control of most of the legion.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Yet, whats worse is having these chapters switch alliegences against the Imperium. Because they are a Chapter, it makes it a lot easier to gain influence and taint the Chapter.
> 
> With legions, it wouldn't be the same, because the Legions would require too much influence. If there was heresy, which would happen realistically, it would probably be at most on a company scale. The respect and authority of the legion taking control of most of the legion.


Wait, wait, wait, what? They broke down the Legions to avoid wide scale rebellion. Once a Primarch turned (or even before on occassion) the whole thing fell over.

"But there aren't any Primarchs, so the charisma to turn an entire Legion doesn't exist!" Look at what happened to the Dark Angels. The Lion didn't turn but a good chunk of his Legion still turned to Chaos.

When Space Marines are broken down into Chapters it's much easier to keep them in line. If a Chapter starts refusing to turn in tithes or begins questionable practices (like destroying rebellious planets instead of pacifying them) then you can pressure them into change. If worse comes to worse you call up a couple-three other Chapters and have them deal with it.

If a Legion starts screwing around you can't really do squat. Calling in two or three Legions to deal with one would cripple the Imperium (since there's only 9 left, anyway).

There is something to having some dissonance within joint Chapter endeavors. It gives multiple points of view on an objective. Through debate maybe a better idea could be forged. Then again sometimes it blows up and no one wants to play ball and the entire operation is crippled. It happened with the Legions, anyway (Russ and the Lion, Angron and pretty much everyone else).

Would you support having one super-legion, Crawford?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Would you support having one super-legion, Crawford


No, I admire the differences of the old legion's tactics. Thats as big as I would go. 

You say it would be easier for legions to fall. But the fact is that these legions did not fall. In a sense, these legions were stronger against the taint of chaos. And even if they weren't tested because the just didn't capture the gods gaze, they sacrificed too much to turn back. The astartes of those legions and now chapters have examples set for them to live by.

The whole thing about how the Heresy started is because they thought the Emperor turned their back on them. Horus and even Lorgar. To an extent you can say that about every traitor primarch. 

With the loyal legions, they have fathers that sacrificed everything... some even their lives for their legion's (now chapters) to have that legacy of remaining loyal and being bright stars in the darkness of the Imperium.

"Heresy grows from idleness."

In someways this is true. Besides... how many of the loyal legions and now chapters have fallen to the taint? None... thats right. NONE. Its just some evidence to prove my point. None of the loyal Primarch's legacies (chapters as an entirety) have fallen to the Dark Gods.

Of course your going to have instances where you lose chapters or companies here and there because they feel abandoned or betrayed by the Imperium. 

But a WHOLE LEGION? You have to convince and start all the way from the root of its leadership. After after the heresy... those loyalist roots run deep. Especially those chapters who were original legions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I never said that a Chapter would have a harder time changing to Chaos. I said that if a Chapter started acting funny you could either force a change or take them out entirely. A Legion you don't have that luxury. With a Legion they're so powerful you have to let them do whatever the hell they want because trying to put your foot down would lead to your extinction.

And let me get this straight, because the remaining Legions (do keep in mind that a full half of the original Legions turned to Chaos, not a very good track record) resisted Chaos once (and, as you said, not all of them even drew Chaos's attention) that they will remain loyal forever? Or do you accept that they may in fact turn to Chaos?

You mention that none of the first founding Chapters have turned to Chaos. True...but keep in mind at what percentage of Chapters have turned, period. 1%? 2%? In all likelihood they're a Chapter will not turn. The fact that the original foundings did not turn is to be expected.

The fact that Legions have turned (and a large percentage at that) isn't exactly working in your favor. 

Plus, how would you deal with a Legion Master that decided to give the Imperium the middle finger? They don't have to turn to Chaos. Maybe they believe that the rest of humanity isn't worth saving anymore. 

Or say that two Legions feel that the other had slighted the other. Look at Guilli and Dorn. After the Horus Heresy they were about to plunge the Imperium into a second civil war. Who could have stopped them if they decided to fight? The other Legions? What happens if the rest of the Legions split between the two (which they did, Vulkan and Russ with Dorn and Corax and the Khan for Gulli). Shit would hit the fan.

Or you could have them broken down into convenient Chapter sized bites. If one or three decide to go AWOL then you can bring them down without threatening the safety of the Imperium.

On another thought, how would a Legion be particularly useful? Even back in the Horus Heresy the Legions were broken down into smaller units. 3 companies here. A thousand marines to that fleet. Maybe just a couple squads for this fleet. Rarely were they brought together, and even rarer did they fight as a Legion (when was it ever needed? Oh, yeah, when they wanted to kill all the loyalists).

Don't get me wrong, there are pros to having Legions, but the risk outweighs the benefits. Heresy and taint are realities they have to deal with. It's better to play it safe than sorry.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Aagh! It is annoying me as to where I found it but I remember one passage where it directly relates that Calgar declares that "the Ultramarines were guilty of the sin of pride. And that their plans against the Tyranids would never work because when the blessed primarch wrote the blessed tome (Index Astartes) that he had no prior knowledge of the Tyranid threat."
> 
> I will find it.


Then that is not a failing of the Codex at all. In such a case it would not be detirimental, it would simply be of no use at the time. Afterwards new data on the Tyranids would be entered into the Codex and it would adapt as the Ultramarines have done so before.



ckcrawford said:


> Think of it like this. They only have 1000 astartes. Whenever they go into several engagements, they are even dividing their Chapter into more pieces and fragments from which they broken down even more.
> 
> For your sake of the argument... sure, why not just make another Chapter... fuck it. Right? But it still doesn't solve the issue of having astartes organizations that are limited with what type of power they hold. They are still limited.


How so? In general Astartes chapters cover a specific region of space. The Legions would have the exact same problem as they would have to be spread out and divded up anyway across the galaxy to protect it from all the threats.

In practically in the current situation of the galaxy the Legions would be in the exact same position as the chapters, scattered to protect areas of Space better.



ckcrawford said:


> You could have several divided chapters that disagree on tactic, each other, and are just divided. Or you can combine them to have a single purpose and make them work more coherentely, with the unstoppable power of a legion.


Except Chapters can and do cooperate with each other rather efficently. Case in point Ziest and the Balur Crusade.

The Legions would inevitably suffer in familarity since they would have to be broken up in order to protect the reaches of space better.



ckcrawford said:


> Yet, whats worse is having these chapters switch alliegences against the Imperium. Because they are a Chapter, it makes it a lot easier to gain influence and taint the Chapter.


Why would it be easier?



ckcrawford said:


> With legions, it wouldn't be the same, because the Legions would require too much influence. If there was heresy, which would happen realistically, it would probably be at most on a company scale. The respect and authority of the legion taking control of most of the legion.


If you want to corrupt a Legion then you simply have to corrupt it's commanders. Case in point the Heresy.



ckcrawford said:


> In someways this is true. Besides... how many of the loyal legions and now chapters have fallen to the taint? None... thats right. NONE. Its just some evidence to prove my point. None of the loyal Primarch's legacies (chapters as an entirety) have fallen to the Dark Gods.


Actually the 3.5 Chaos Codex and the 4th edition Chaos Codex note that some chapters have turned entirely. The 3rd edition Marine book notes some chapters that have turned entirely to Chaos but does not name them.


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