# Sisters of Battle - We've been bagged!



## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm sure you are aware you can no longer buy the 10 man boxes of Sisters or the Seraphim. The boxed set of Inquisitor's troupe is out as well being discluded from the codex. Now it seems our tanks are also being delivered in bags, as GW seems to have run out? This is what I just got when I ordered a new Immolator from my FLGS. He assured me as usual they are getting a new dex and models soon, but has said the same for 2 years now.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Maybe not a good sign , but then again maybe the stock is being run down in anticipation of all the new cool Finecast Sisters ?

(psst they don't come in 10 MAN boxes :biggrin: )


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

This happened a while ago actually. The Exorcist comes in a brown box too. I wouldn't panic just yet since it's been like this for about 6-8 months if memory serves. I ordered some of the Immolator kits (I use them over the standard Rhino because they're just so darn awesome looking) a while back to beef up my army around when the WD Codex came out and that's how the Immolators came.

All it means to me is that they stopped printing the old box and to me that's okay. It means things may be in the works to update things like the design of the packaging or they've run out of the old boxes and don't want to spend money on them anymore.

So to steal something from the British (you know, since they do make this game and all):


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

The Exorcist has been in a brown box for at least two years now and the Immolator hasn't had it's own box for a few months, I believe.

Mind you, last time I ordered an Immolator, about this time last year the Immolator sprue (not the Rhino bitz, the specific Immolator frame) came absolutely dripping with mold release, which implies that it had been cast pretty recently, so I suspect they are not so much running down their stock as casting small runs as-needed.


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## Helicon One (Mar 9, 2012)

The fact that Sisters of Battle are being neglected comes as no surprise to anyone who was paying attention in the last few years. Its been quite obvious at least since the White Dwarf list was released that GW is doing the bare minimum to keep the army table-legal so they can keep their "no more Squattings" promise, and nothing more. Not even bothering to reprint new runs of the packaging is just another example.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Helicon One said:


> The fact that Sisters of Battle are being neglected comes as no surprise to anyone who was paying attention in the last few years. Its been quite obvious at least since the White Dwarf list was released that GW is doing the bare minimum to keep the army table-legal so they can keep their "no more Squattings" promise, and nothing more. Not even bothering to reprint new runs of the packaging is just another example.


"Bare minimum to keep the army table-legal'. What? This isn't Magic the Gathering, as long as you have the books, the models and GW hasn't Squatted them they're legal.

The box was old, it's more likely that they phased it out so they can more easily replace it when the Sisters get a proper update. 

Can we keep the ridiculous levels of conspiracy theory and GW hate that occur in Sister threads out of this one please? Sisters aren't great, but they aren't that bad. They're actually pretty solid middle tier. Those games in my signature? I play those at 2,000 points, the level the army is "unplayable" at. 

I'm going to stop here before I end up ranting. Basically the hating needs to stop. Yes it's a White Dwarf book but despite it all it competes very well if you know how to play the missions well.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

With all the new boxes coming out recently, something has to be done to make shelf space. And putting immolators in bags like that means you can have 3-6 in a 2-peg space, rather than on an actual shelf. 

It's something that's been done before, and ensures there'll be room in stores to keep them there rather than making them direct only.


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## Helicon One (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm not suggesting any 'conspiracy', its fairly clear that the Sisters are firmly in back-burner (there's a bad pun about flamers in there somewhere) mode so they get minimal resources dedicated to them, WD articles rather than Codex releases, no new models, the new uber-unit from the WD list not being made up of Battle Sisters at all, and vehicles sent out in the generic Citadel bags once the existing packaging ran out. 

That's not 'hating' either, simply an acknowledgement of how any creative industry works - at least since Andy Hoare left the designers don't have anyone advocating for a big push on the Sisters, and there's nobody really leaning on them from the marketing side either since there isn't exactly a gigantic horde of Battle Sisters players out there beating on the walls demanding that GW take their money.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Helicon One said:


> ... there isn't exactly a gigantic horde of Battle Sisters players out there beating on the walls demanding that GW take their money.


Are you sure about that? Everyone in my area that I talk to is keen to see new Sisters, I don't have an army of them but if they come out in plastic I will for sure. I think "New Sisters" are maybe more anticipated than you might think.

Crikey the manager of the local GW shop and two other guys have a SoB tattoos !

Yeh I know we are a small group in a small country but surely we aren't that different?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I know lots of people who want to start sisters or use sisters for conversions but they are simply waiting for plastic sisters.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> With all the new boxes coming out recently, something has to be done to make shelf space. And putting immolators in bags like that means you can have 3-6 in a 2-peg space, rather than on an actual shelf.
> 
> It's something that's been done before, and ensures there'll be room in stores to keep them there rather than making them direct only.


What do you mean, they ARE direct only, every model. I've never seen a GW store stock them let alone a FLGS unless maybe some place in GB still has some old ones left over.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> What do you mean, they ARE direct only, every model. I've never seen a GW store stock them let alone a FLGS unless maybe some place in GB still has some old ones left over.


My FLGS keeps Sisters in stock.

Probably because I keep buying them.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

My FLGS does not keep SoB in stock. I have to order them and wait 2 weeks for them come in. I started buying them in the 3 pack but just can't keep throwing away good money on such a money sink. Not to mention I hate pewter models. Eventually GW will release them properly or throw them away completely. They don't get another red penny from my until they sh*t or get off the pot. Back to my smurfs/orks/SW until then.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

:goodpost: I'm in that boat too


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

texcuda said:


> My FLGS does not keep SoB in stock. I have to order them and wait 2 weeks for them come in. I started buying them in the 3 pack but just can't keep throwing away good money on such a money sink. Not to mention I hate pewter models. Eventually GW will release them properly or throw them away completely. They don't get another red penny from my until they sh*t or get off the pot. Back to my smurfs/orks/SW until then.


So in the end GW is getting your money anyways, just through other armies that have the newer plastic kits? Kind of a mixed message your post has there.

I can respect people who don't want to commit to the Sisters due to cost, or a dislike of Pewter models but you're not boycotting the company if you buy other armies (I see this come up a LOT...what can I say, when you spend a lot of time looking for news on Sisters you tend to see certain topics and posts repeated after a while). Either play them or don't. I'm going to keep playing with them and going to keep kicking as much butt as I can with them. Save for some pointy chins and the Repentia Mistress having a case of the Madonna boobs the models aren't that bad. Yes there are only like four basic Sisters models (and about half of the ones I own are the Sister pulling the Grenade Pin with her teeth) but honestly I don't find the models to be that bad. In fact I would say they're reasonably decent and I've grown rather find of them.

But then again I was crazy enough to get all of mine new for the sake of making sure nothing was missing (backpacks for them tend to get....lost) so I was willing to shell out a bit more per model than most people (and before people complain about the three packs they really should be looking at the individual models like the Heavy Weapons Sisters, and the Seraphim. You want ridiculious prices? There you go).


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

^ Oh god, 14 dollars for one special weapons model... why do I even, what is this... take my money GW


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> ^ Oh god, 14 dollars for one special weapons model... why do I even, what is this... take my money GW


Luxury ! We DREAM of paying as little as $14 for a model. I think our cheapest of just about any army is about $20


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Zion said:


> So in the end GW is getting your money anyways, just through other armies that have the newer plastic kits? Kind of a mixed message your post has there.
> 
> I can respect people who don't want to commit to the Sisters due to cost, or a dislike of Pewter models but you're not boycotting the company if you buy other armies (I see this come up a LOT...what can I say, when you spend a lot of time looking for news on Sisters you tend to see certain topics and posts repeated after a while). Either play them or don't. I'm going to keep playing with them and going to keep kicking as much butt as I can with them. Save for some pointy chins and the Repentia Mistress having a case of the Madonna boobs the models aren't that bad. Yes there are only like four basic Sisters models (and about half of the ones I own are the Sister pulling the Grenade Pin with her teeth) but honestly I don't find the models to be that bad. In fact I would say they're reasonably decent and I've grown rather find of them.
> 
> But then again I was crazy enough to get all of mine new for the sake of making sure nothing was missing (backpacks for them tend to get....lost) so I was willing to shell out a bit more per model than most people (and before people complain about the three packs they really should be looking at the individual models like the Heavy Weapons Sisters, and the Seraphim. You want ridiculious prices? There you go).


True, yet they aren't getting my money at a much higher per model cost. I'm winning that battle hands down. Rather than pay $100 for 10 SoB I can pay $35 for 10 SM tact troops and be way ahead with that army. I don't mind spending the money, I mind being taken advantage of because they either won't, can't or don't care to take care of their repeat customers. Perhaps they would see their SoB sales raise to match more "popular" armys if people didn't have to take a second mortgage to afford 1500 pts worth of SoB. As for the actual models I don't mind the current SoB poses, I hate PEWTER models of any army.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> ^ Oh god, 14 dollars for one special weapons model... why do I even, what is this... take my money GW


Exactly. Atleast the three packs give us the models for $5.75 USD. Yes, it's sad when you consider that an improvement. Sometimes I wonder if I'm paying for the Marines that GW can't stock on that shelf space the Sisters take up when I order them. 



Magpie_Oz said:


> Luxury ! We DREAM of paying as little as $14 for a model. I think our cheapest of just about any army is about $20


By the time the new Sisters get out I'm sure the folks who've been playing them a while will be telling stories about how they took out second morgages on their mothers to afford new models, and had their spines crushed by the weight of the cases as they dragged them to their FLGS uphill in a blizzard just to play a game with their expensive models. And they liked it.



texcuda said:


> True, yet they aren't getting my money at a much higher per model cost. I'm winning that battle hands down. Rather than pay $100 for 10 SoB I can pay $35 for 10 SM tact troops and be way ahead with that army. I don't mind spending the money, I mind being taken advantage of because they either won't, can't or don't care to take care of their repeat customers. Perhaps they would see their SoB sales raise to match more "popular" armys if people didn't have to take a second mortgage to afford 1500 pts worth of SoB. As for the actual models I don't mind the current SoB poses, I hate PEWTER models of any army.


That's fair, and makes more sense. It was just that your initial post seemed a bit muddled on that point because it reads more like "they can't have my money, except for this and this and this". I can honestly say there are a lot of things that I don't like about Pewter models but I like army enough to look past these things.

The current Sisters are one of those things that you love or you don't. It's just one of those facts I'm aware of and I don't mind if other people can't look past the problems because at the end of the day I've got an army I dig, and usually earns me some games just because they aren't Marines.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Are you sure about that? Everyone in my area that I talk to is keen to see new Sisters, I don't have an army of them but if they come out in plastic I will for sure. I think "New Sisters" are maybe more anticipated than you might think.
> 
> Crikey the manager of the local GW shop and two other guys have a SoB tattoos !
> 
> Yeh I know we are a small group in a small country but surely we aren't that different?


And how many of those Sisters players / wannabe players have made their desires know to GW in any way they are likely to hear where the decisions are made? 

Talking to store staff doesn't get heard at HQ.
Talking on forums doesn't get heard at HQ. 
Talking direct to GW on their recognised means of communication, or contacting them directly (like we're trying to do here) *does*. 

All those players want HQ to know they still want more? TELL THEM. I do, regularly, both online and in person. Hell, the community could get a 100k+ signature petition on the matter done in a matter of days, which I could get printed and hand to them in person. 

Shouting into the aether does nothing but frustrate.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> And how many of those Sisters players / wannabe players have made their desires know to GW in any way they are likely to hear where the decisions are made?
> 
> Talking to store staff doesn't get heard at HQ.
> Talking on forums doesn't get heard at HQ.
> ...


That might not be bad idea. We should start a petition!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

The only thing I don't like about the current models is that the size creep of new models causes Sisters to look short, stocky and dwarfish in comparison. Hold a SoB next to a DE Wych and you'll see what I mean.



Necrosis said:


> That might not be bad idea. We should start a petition!


I've got a portion addressing this in an open letter Heresy is compiling and sending to GW HQ.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

SilverTabby said:


> All those players want HQ to know they still want more? TELL THEM. I do, regularly, both online and in person.


We do, I have a long series of Emails with GW Australia, mainly about Finecast but on the Sisters as well and my Local store manager also talks with them in regards of SoB whenever he goes to Sydney.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

May I suggest talking to them about whether they pass on your concerns and emails to GWUK HQ? Because if they don't then it'll get you no-where, as *all* the writing and sculpting and decisions are made in Nottingham. Every other location is an outlet or secondary manufacturing facility. 

Localised WDs can print more specific articles, but again - little filters back other than "why on earth did they write that one?"


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I've written to GW (Notts.) Arcane is writing to them, you tell them in person, MadCowCrazy absolutely sent them chocolate with his letter.

Not that they don't already know.

In 2002 GW ran a poll asking what models people most wanted in plastic. Sisters of Battle won, and by a significant margin. The top four in fact were Sisters, Valhallans, Red Corsairs and Cadians. As you we know, in 2003 Plastic Cadians!

And it won't do a thing. Games Workshop is not Father Christmas, they are a publicly traded company. That means they must chase the bottom line (the law requires them to pursue the best return for their investors, to the best of their ability).

To GW, that means sucking money out of Little Timmy ('s parents) - NOT you and I. We want plastic Sisters. Little Timmy is afraid of girls and thinks 40k starts and finishes with Marines.

That's life, gentlemen, we, the adults, those of us who frequent fora and take note of upcoming releases are a very small slice of the market and at best a periphery demographic.

I think plastic Sisters would sell well, GW disagrees and it's their decision. All the letters and petitions (has an online petition ever made a difference to anything?) won't change that.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

You know what really helps fuel interest in a army?

A new Codex with fresh models.

Not to long ago no one, and I mean no one, in my area played Dark Eldar. Boom New Codex, we have 4 or 5 people who play now.

If GW got off their lazy butts and actually printed the Sister's Codex and made some plastic Sisters I'd bet a ton of people would start to play them.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Catch 22 delayed Dark Eldar for a long time. No-one bought the god-awful models, so they made no money. As they made no money, there was no call for new models. It was as incredibly frustrating on the inside as it was to the public outside.

With the main supporters of the Sisters no longer bugging from the inside, this situation is likely to last even longer for the Sisters...


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

If you're referring to Andy Hoare*, didn't he leave a couple of years back? That's hardly a new development.

In any event, Joka, I stand by what I said - people like you and I would buy new Sisters, but no one else would. Everyone will buy whatever Marines appear.


*Edit - I was less than surprised to learn that almost the first thing he did for Fantasy Flight Games was a Splatbook focusing on the Sisters. God bless you, Andy.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> You know what really helps fuel interest in a army?
> 
> A new Codex with fresh models.
> 
> ...


Start so well finish so silly

You are spot on I reckon; Grey Knights are uber right now and they are selling like hot cakes the next army to get a new 'Dex and becomes the army to have will also sell well, it is simple marketing.

I have no idea why GW shy away from the Sisters but I really think Azezel has hit pretty close to the mark. 

Maybe the whole concept of women soldiers is a bit too polarising? 
Alien women seem to go OK with the Dark Elves, Elves, Dark Eldar and Eldar seeming to manage alright. Women figures aren't all that prominent in "human" armies. Maybe they are concerned with the look, too ugly for the old guys or too sexy for Timmy? I know some of my more risqué figures to raise an eyebrow or two around home. I think the Infinity models to hit a pretty good middle ground, between militant and sexy, with many of their figures, maybe GW needs to take a look at their efforts?

GW is responding to their market, and that market is not just us, suggesting they are lazy is just ridiculous.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Azezel said:


> If you're referring to Andy Hoare*, didn't he leave a couple of years back? That's hardly a new development.
> 
> In any event, Joka, I stand by what I said - people like you and I would buy new Sisters, but no one else would. Everyone will buy whatever Marines appear.
> 
> ...


Back before he left, Andy was down to write the codex, and told me the timeline was 2 years for completion. There were a few others, myself included, who kept the torch burning for the nuns with guns. Unfortunately virtually all are no longer there pushing. 

Doesn't mean there's no hope, it's just a little harder to be heard and have influence. Still possible though :wink:


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## EwokDwf (Apr 13, 2011)

i know in all the stores around me they cant stop selling sisters of battle and there are alot of people waiting for them. just cuase gw is dialing down all there Sob doesnt mean they are getting read of them if anything i wouldnt be suprised if they are the next army or so to get an update.. i think out of all the armies out there sisters of battle will be in the next 4 or 5 to get the update along with tau and chaos space marines..


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Alien women seem to go OK with the Dark Elves, *Elves*, Dark Eldar and Eldar seeming to manage alright.


High Elves don't have any female soldiers, though Dark and Wood elves do.

Well, actually, _my_ High Elves do, but that's conversion work.

A dearth of female figures is precisely what one'd expect, though, from a company targeting the 10-15 year old boy demographic. I know my nephew (who is squarely in that self same demographic) finds it bizarre that I'd collect Sisters of Battle, or convert female Elves despite not being a woman myself.




EwokDwf said:


> i think out of all the armies out there sisters of battle will be in the next 4 or 5 to get the update along with tau and chaos space marines..


I'd take that bet.We've definately got at least two Marines coming (Spiky and non-spiky of some colour), Tau, as you say. After that, any or all of Eldar, Smurfs, Guard and at least one more Marine book has a better shot of coming out before Sisters.

Averaging 3 books a year, we're looking at 2015 as an optimistic date.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

So, do I count as Optimist or Pessimist being confident, Sisters will get a release before 8th edition comes out???


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Yes there are female high elf figures, I own them so they exist: though some are now oop. 

And it's not the demographic that dictates very few female figures: it's the genre. War has almost always been a male arena. The men fight, the women make more fighters. In all of our cultures, how many have more than a single figure % of female *frontline* fighters? 

The Sisters exist in 40k because of a loophole exploited by the Ministorum. Some IG worlds have an Amazonian theme, and so have female armies. Xenos armies have a non-human mindset, so can have either mixed or specialist units that include females. But for the main part, human armies are male. They are bigger, physically stronger (in parts) so are considered the better option for fighters.

It's nothing new, nothing radical, and that GW caters for those who want females shows they aren't sexist.

And I say all this as a 20+ year female wargaming veteran :wink:


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

People are saying about a new dex=sales but I disagree their are no more necrons players in my area now than before the new dex came out, the DE dex did well because it was hugely publicised nearly all the 40k battle reports for a year after the release has dark eldar in it and by all accounts the old pre update army was nearly unuseable. The SoB army by the sounds of it is a useable but challenging army almost exclusively used by veterans of the game

Also let's not forget the hate storm that descended on GW when the GK dex came out from the old daemon hunter players. Never forget that some people enjoy the challenges of playing a flawed army and GW will have to tread very carefully with SoB to not just attract new gamers to the army but not alienate the older vets who have worked hard to excel using the old rules


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

bobahoff said:


> People are saying about a new dex=sales but I disagree their are no more necrons players in my area now than before the new dex came out, the DE dex did well because it was hugely publicised nearly all the 40k battle reports for a year after the release has dark eldar in it and by all accounts the old pre update army was nearly unuseable. The SoB army by the sounds of it is a useable but challenging army almost exclusively used by veterans of the game
> 
> Also let's not forget the hate storm that descended on GW when the GK dex came out from the old daemon hunter players. Never forget that some people enjoy the challenges of playing a flawed army and GW will have to tread very carefully with SoB to not just attract new gamers to the army but not alienate the older vets who have worked hard to excel using the old rules


Everybody has anecdotal evidence, but there is no doubt in my mind that the new Grey Knights and Dark Eldar sold better. They are both better armies now, by a long shot and the models are awesome. They flew off the shelves when the first came out at my local game store. Not having new models (and currently having old expensive ones) and having a adequate codex won't cause Sisters to sell better. The reason only veterans are playing them is becuase few people are willing to spend the amount of money on a "new" army. I've totalled the cost of some of my 2000 point armies for Sisters and one at least reached over 1000 dollars US new. A similarly built space marine army costs significantly less in dollars. Suffice to say that most armies will cost less if not all


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

andrewm9 said:


> Everybody has anecdotal evidence, but there is no doubt in my mind that the new Grey Knights and Dark Eldar sold better. They are both better armies now, by a long shot and the models are awesome. They flew off the shelves when the first came out at my local game store.


Yeah agreed there but like I said the shitstorm has only just abated from daemon hunter players getting pissed off about everyone using their favourite army. 
I reckon if they were to redo sisters they'd sell well but the feedback from the vets would be bad that everyone is doing sisters now


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I don't care what other players are using. When Sisters get released, it will mean *my* army gets better and has new figures. 

40% of all players will still use marines, and the rest fluctuate between 1 - 10% each. The number of x players in any one location will go up, but the base numbers above will always be true. They have been for decades, no one release will change that hugely. It's designed that way.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

SilverTabby said:


> I don't care what other players are using. When Sisters get released, it will mean *my* army gets better and has new figures.


+1 it will mean MY army will be finally complete!


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

andrewm9 said:


> I've totalled the cost of some of my 2000 point armies for Sisters and one at least reached over 1000 dollars US new. A similarly built space marine army costs significantly less in dollars. Suffice to say that most armies will cost less if not all


When I totaled up the price to replace my Sisters (for insurance purposes/porpoises*) it was a hair under £700.

I know that last year someone did some maths to the effect that you could have a FW Death Korp of Kreig army for less than the price of an equivalent Battle Sisters army. Now that's just _wrong_.


*If you do have a Sisters army, you should strongly consider adding it as a named item to your Homes & Contents insurance. Some companies will baulk at paying £700 for toy soldiers if you don't.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> +1 it will mean MY army will be finally complete!


I won't claim anything that ambitious, but my Sisters models will definitely end up doubling in number if we got a good kit, and tripling in number if we get more kinds of units to work with.

I'm personally looking forward to see what GW gives us in the next book. I've got some ideas of what I'd like to see (and I'm compiling my jumbled thoughts into a more organized and concise document to send into the design team with hopes of inspiring someone to work on a new book for us, or at least some new toys for us when they get there).

I'm not going to post any of the ideas here though as GW's submission policy requires me to give up anything I send in as no longer being my work. That said, I'm not planning on breaking the Holy Trinity, and I'm planning on keeping the book Ecclesiarchal in scope. It's a massive organization with nearly limitless resources, and I honestly think the Sisters should reflect that a bit more by providing them with some more non-Imperium standard toys in their books. Nothing too particularly insane, just some more vehicles based around the Rhino chassis to provide them with light tanks that look like something they could use that's a little bit different.

I have gone through and read (and do re-read) other fan works that people have done as thought experiments and have gotten an idea or two but most of my ideas are based around older options that used to exist (like the Pintle-Flamer on a Rhino) or some things I think might fit a Sisters army (namely continuing that feel of mixing religion and warfare into hybrid that you don't see in the other armies).

Anyways, I've prattled on too long about a rather silly idea I'm working on. Keep the faith, I'm sure we'll see something in the future that doesn't consist of a message that they've cancelled the army (I'm rather hoping for 2013 myself, but that's just blind optimism).


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Good point. I have 13+ years of Sisters models alone, I may need to do some maths (and take pictures for proof)...


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Zion said:


> Anyways, I've prattled on too long about a rather silly idea I'm working on.


Sounds like a great idea and I hope it comes to some form of fruition.

I have the goal of completing 3 Armies, each of the Ordo's and their militants. GK tick, Deathwatch Tick , Sisters .... 0


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Sounds like a great idea and I hope it comes to some form of fruition.


Thanks! I hope so too. I will admit that I'm rather toying with the idea of tying in the Grey Knights fluff (as inspired by the book Hammer and Anvil) where the Sisters are rather (sorry, the name escapes me) took place, but they have sworn themselves to find out and take vengeance on whomever is responsible. A bit petty? Perhaps, but I think it's something they'd do if an entire branch of an Order went *poof* and disappeared.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Zion said:


> I will admit that I'm rather toying with the idea of tying in the Grey Knights fluff (as inspired by the book Hammer and Anvil) where the Sisters are rather (sorry, the name escapes me) took place, but they have sworn themselves to find out and take vengeance on whomever is responsible. A bit petty? Perhaps, but I think it's something they'd do if an entire branch of an Order went *poof* and disappeared.


I've stated openly to my friends this is the one reason that I won't play GK. After reading that Ben Counter GK short story about what it takes to "bless" their arms and equipment, I can't consider playing them. 

As someone who wants to build (and play) SoB, I find that there are far too many obstacles. Price is one (I have disposable income, but I baulk at the eBay prices--they're actually more expensive than those on the GW website at this point), but finding a copy of the WDex is the other.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> I've stated openly to my friends this is the one reason that I won't play GK. After reading that Ben Counter GK short story about what it takes to "bless" their arms and equipment, I can't consider playing them.


I've read somewhere where it was explained better. Essentially no Grey Knight has ever willingly fallen to the temptations of the Ruinous Powers, but it doesn't make them immune to it's effects (Nurgle can still infect them, Khorne can blind them with rage, Tzeetch can still inflict mutations, Slannesh can still....well you get the idea), so they needed a way to counter the Bloodtide, and with Khorne being very anti-psyker it's debatable that they could have just thrown up a kind of barrier and waded in. So they used what could be seen as a kind of Blood Magic to counter the effects long enough to allow them to stop the daemon.

Granted this is all fan theory, but at least it's one that not only makes sense but cleans up the whole thing a lot better. Doesn't mean I can't be annoyed on how poorly written the offical version is though.



Dicrel Seijin said:


> As someone who wants to build (and play) SoB, I find that there are far too many obstacles. Price is one (I have disposable income, but I baulk at the eBay prices--they're actually more expensive than those on the GW website at this point), but finding a copy of the WDex is the other.


I bought about 95% of my Sisters directly from GW. The rest I got from a friend who wasn't using them and sold them to me fairly cheaply. So building an army can be done, it just won't be cheap, and if you're on a budget, won't be fast.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

bobahoff said:


> People are saying about a new dex=sales but I disagree their are no more necrons players in my area now than before the new dex came out, the DE dex did well because it was hugely publicised nearly all the 40k battle reports for a year after the release has dark eldar in it and by all accounts the old pre update army was nearly unuseable. The SoB army by the sounds of it is a useable but challenging army almost exclusively used by veterans of the game


I must also disagree. My FLGS is very diverse. Actually I am having trouble thinking of any player who uses Vanilla Marines. Many of these players had small Necron or DE armies and finished them now that the dexes came out. In an upcoming tourney I expect to face 3 Necrons, 1-2 DE, 3 GK, 1-2 Eldar, 2-3 Chaos, Some space wolves and idk what else. Then again Michigan in a very racial and culturaly diverse place compared to much of the USA and some of GB.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Azezel said:


> When I totaled up the price to replace my Sisters (for insurance purposes/porpoises*) it was a hair under £700.
> 
> I know that last year someone did some maths to the effect that you could have a FW Death Korp of Kreig army for less than the price of an equivalent Battle Sisters army. Now that's just _wrong_.
> 
> ...


Yeah I should really do that, although my wife might freak out.

One time she asked me how much I had invested in the models. My reply was that invested wasn't the right word.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

You have an odd definition of 'very diverse'



Arcane said:


> In an upcoming tourney I expect to face 3 Necrons, 1-2 DE, 3 GK, 1-2 Eldar, 2-3 Chaos, Some space wolves and idk what else. Then again Michigan in a very racial and culturaly diverse place compared to much of the USA and some of GB.


That means in the upcoming tournie, you expect more than half of the players will be playing Marines (depending on what 'some Space Wolves' means in actual numbers).

Now, that's far more diverse than my neck of the woods, but that doesn't make it 'very diverse'.

Which of course, brings us back the the unescapable problem: any Marine 'dex will outsell a Sisters 'dex by so brobdingnagian a margin that updating Sisters will _never_ be a truly wise thing for GW to do.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Azezel said:


> Which of course, brings us back the the unescapable problem: any Marine 'dex will outsell a Sisters 'dex by so brobdingnagian a margin that updating Sisters will _never_ be a truly wise thing for GW to do.


I find that debatable personally. If they were THAT bad they wouldn't have gotten an update. GW would have just squatted them, we liked it or not. The fact of the matter is they are still making them, which tells me that they still make at least a little money. 

Some former GW employees had an FAQ on reddit a couple weeks ago, they said that Marines COLLECTIVELY made 12% of all the profits GW did with the other armies averaging about 8% each. That's a bit of a bump, yes, but it takes 5 armies put together to pass the other armies (joy of shared models) which tells me that overall that for the most part sales aren't that uneven.

My rambling point aside is that GW wouldn't be LOSING money by releasing Sisters, if anything they'd make money due to the release of a wider model range, and the release of plastic kits which would allow more players to pick up the army and the existing players to expand their armies with fun new models. Would they catch on more than Marines as the poster women of 40K? Not likely since GW loves pushing the Marines as the mainstay of the game, but they wouldn't be any worse off than Dark Eldar as long as they're handled well.

But then again I'm a bit of an optimist when it comes to Sisters. I honestly believe they'll get an update and when they do it'll be pretty darn sweet.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Me too Zion, I just don't think they are in a hurry either.

They will need a full range of new models to release when they do it, and that's a good bit of work. If they has problems getting them right, then they are likely to just wait a bit and let them simmer till someone gets "inspired" modeling them some way that looks good and works well.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> I find that debatable personally. If they were THAT bad they wouldn't have gotten an update. GW would have just squatted them, we liked it or not. The fact of the matter is they are still making them, which tells me that they still make at least a little money.
> 
> Some former GW employees had an FAQ on reddit a couple weeks ago, they said that Marines COLLECTIVELY made 12% of all the profits GW did with the other armies averaging about 8% each. That's a bit of a bump, yes, but it takes 5 armies put together to pass the other armies (joy of shared models) which tells me that overall that for the most part sales aren't that uneven.
> 
> ...


Marines form 40-odd% of *all* 40k sales. The other armies are betwenn 3 - 8% each. I don't know how that relates to total sales, but I know that figure is accurate.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> Marines form 40-odd% of *all* 40k sales. The other armies are betwenn 3 - 8% each. I don't know how that relates to total sales, but I know that figure is accurate.


Yeah, I don't know where this 12% bs keeps coming from, it's clearly a fabrication, or at least 15 years out of date.

While I don't think that Sisters being rereleased will end up being a loss for GW (obviously) I do think that it will be so expensive to do (with the necessity to redo virtually the entire range) that they will need some significant sales to make it work...they'd maybe even settle for 3 waves of release, since any given army (bar Marines as a collective) sells far more in the initial month of 'release' than the rest of the time.

New = Shiny after all.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, I don't know where this 12% bs keeps coming from, it's clearly a fabrication, or at least 15 years out of date.


Personally I got it from a Reddit thread that was running a few months back with a few former GW employees (as involved in sales, production, ect. No front store blokes there) but most of them where out of the company for the while, so it's possible. I would like to see the actual breakdown because 40% seems a little high to me for something that shares so many models (and so many codex jumping players recycle between books that GW doesn't make much money off of them when they do that).



TheKingElessar said:


> While I don't think that Sisters being rereleased will end up being a loss for GW (obviously) I do think that it will be so expensive to do (with the necessity to redo virtually the entire range) that they will need some significant sales to make it work...they'd maybe even settle for 3 waves of release, since any given army (bar Marines as a collective) sells far more in the initial month of 'release' than the rest of the time.
> 
> New = Shiny after all.


Every army that needs to be updated has this same problem (save for Marines because they keep updating them constantly). To act like it's limited to Sisters is a bit silly. With how poor sales must be going right now to justify such high sales prices I can't imagine that updating the Sisters would do anything but make GW money hand over fist and get them back into the black after the molds are paid for.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter and not based on any hard fact. I wish I could base my posts on hard fact but that'd require GW to be more open about what goes on behind the curtain.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh, I'm not insinuating it was any different for, say, Dark Eldar - they had as large a refit. Thing is, that cost a lot, and it'll be a little while before we see that huge a range shift again, most likely. Even Necrons left their plastics alone, but Sisters really don't have any but Transports.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

It is possible we will get a flyer model here at some point, although I haven't seen or heard of any such rumor. Even a different vehicle added in at some point through another WD update would help fill out the codex nicely.


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Oh, I'm not insinuating it was any different for, say, Dark Eldar - they had as large a refit. Thing is, that cost a lot, and it'll be a little while before we see that huge a range shift again, most likely. Even Necrons left their plastics alone, but Sisters really don't have any but Transports.


But as you know, if they were to design even a single Battle Sister kit with a lot of special weapons that woudl cover almost the entire current codex. Doing teh Exorcist wouldn't take much (relatively speaking) at all as its mostly plastic. Just change the metal parts into another sprue and maybe add a few other bits and bobs to round it out. That leaves just Seraphim and Repentia.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Zion said:


> Personally I got it from a Reddit thread that was running a few months back with a few former GW employees (as involved in sales, production, ect. No front store blokes there) but most of them where out of the company for the while, so it's possible. I would like to see the actual breakdown because 40% seems a little high to me for something that shares so many models (and so many codex jumping players recycle between books...


It came from a talk, given by Tom Kirby at GWHQ Nottingham for the Studio staff about 5 years ago when he broke down the figures and explained them :wink:

They may have changed since, but I doubt it's by much...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> It came from a talk, given by Tom Kirby at GWHQ Nottingham for the Studio staff about 5 years ago when he broke down the figures and explained them :wink:
> 
> They may have changed since, but I doubt it's by much...


So we're both using old numbers that are possibly wrong? Works for me. I'd really like to know what the current breakdown looks like.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

The numbers had been the same for 40k for the previous 5 years too, so I doubt it's varied much. *shrugs* All that is certain, is that marines are at least 3 times more profitable than any other 40k army.

And yes, to make money they'd need to add more units as Sisters, Dominions, and celestians are pretty much identical weapon-wise, and can be made from the same kit. I'd imagine the Ministorum would get new units to supplement the power armour, and at least 1 new tank option.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I imagine that eventually, we're just going to have Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, and all the other armies will have been dropped entirely.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

andrewm9 said:


> But as you know, if they were to design even a single Battle Sister kit with a lot of special weapons that woudl cover almost the entire current codex. Doing teh Exorcist wouldn't take much (relatively speaking) at all as its mostly plastic. Just change the metal parts into another sprue and maybe add a few other bits and bobs to round it out. That leaves just Seraphim and Repentia.


While studio time isn't cheap per see, it's not the main limiting factor. Which is to say, the sculptors are saleried, they get paid the same no matter what they're sculpting, so it costs GW the same to sculpt a new Battle Sister as it does a new Smurf, or whatever.

However, the tools used for injection molding are crazy expensive, as in £50-£100k a pop.

From GW's perspective, that means they need to sell a lot of £25 pound kits to make it worth the price of admission. It's much easier to sell some kits than others. F'rex, the Tau Drone tool is expected _never_ to recoup its cost.

Just making the current Sisters codex options plastic would require, let's see...

Battle Sisters+loadsaweapons (Makes Sisters, Dominions, Retributors and Celestians) - at least two unique sprues.

Repentia one unique sprue.

Seraphim - might just get away with one unique sprue, but doubtful.

Exorcist - one unique sprue.

Penitent Engine - at least two unique sprues, maybe three.

Canonness and Celestine get damned to Finecast.

Just for the tools to make plastic sisters, we're talking the best part of half a million quid. That's not exactly chump change for a company that only made 15 million last year (or possibly 2010, I forget).

Compared to that price tag, a new Marine 'dex, which has a much, much larger fanbase and much lower costs (requiring maybe one or two new kits) is by far the better option for GW.

I never said updating Sisters would lose GW money, I said it's lose GW money _compared to updating a Marine book_.

Updating Sisters earns £, updating Marines earns £££, which would you do, if you had to explain the decision to your shareholders, during a recession?


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> The numbers had been the same for 40k for the previous 5 years too, so I doubt it's varied much. *shrugs* All that is certain, is that marines are at least 3 times more profitable than any other 40k army.
> 
> And yes, to make money they'd need to add more units as Sisters, Dominions, and celestians are pretty much identical weapon-wise, and can be made from the same kit. I'd imagine the Ministorum would get new units to supplement the power armour, and at least 1 new tank option.


I just have never understood why they don't want to update the sisters. They are unprofitable becuase the unsupported and they are unsupported becuase they are unprofitable. Its a viscious cycle. Expanding the army range and making them plastic would almost certainly make them profitable and people would jump at the chance. Grey Knights weren't making any money really either and suddenly with new rules (some would say broken) and new plastic kits everyone (well enough anyway) suddenly want to play them. Dark Eldar and Necrons were in much the same boat with Dark Eldar getting a complete facelift replacing almost every model they had in their line and then some.

I can easily conceive and write rules for half a dozen or more units that make sense for the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy. I am perfectly willign to be patient but it took 7 years to update from the last time and most of the existing model range is is around 15 years old. Who else has that kind aging model for their troops. These have been around since 2nd edition. I think its time.

Furthermore, this new codex addresses none of the issue the previous codex had in 5th edition. I can only hope that in 6th edition it shines a bit more. of course the codex is functional, but I don't think it in any way matches up to the codices that have recieved more care and love.


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

Azezel said:


> While studio time isn't cheap per see, it's not the main limiting factor. Which is to say, the sculptors are saleried, they get paid the same no matter what they're sculpting, so it costs GW the same to sculpt a new Battle Sister as it does a new Smurf, or whatever.
> 
> However, the tools used for injection molding are crazy expensive, as in £50-£100k a pop.
> 
> ...


I don't have to explain it to them fortunately. Eventually GW will start losing more money even on marines given their current business model IMO. I'm no economist and I don't play one on TV, but marines (non GK) are not really getting much in the way of updated models. I mean what is really new in the last 5 years? Thunderfire, Lost and the Damned, Stormraven, Death Company, Sanguinary guard, Thunderwolves, Wolf Guard Termies, and grey Hunters. Several of those are army specific. Those tactical marines from 2004 are continuing to pay for themselves since they have not been upgraded.


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## lordseamus (Apr 24, 2012)

I am new to the forum--so hello to you all. I have read the threads on the cost of making new models etc... I have been playing 40k since 87--so I am an old timer. I get the business end of what GW is trying to do, such as 'lets make stuff that sells.' But have you noticed how cyclical GW seems to be? Seems like that make an new army--then it sort of goes stale for a few years--and then they spring back with a new variation on the same army--sometimes making us buy new stuff (which I don't mind) to go along with new rules. That seems to be their history as I see it. Just thought I'd share.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Besides what has already been said, making say the rhino sprue is much more profitable for them because it is used by sooo many codexes (sp?).

Even the base SM sprue is sort of technically applicable to many more armies than a very specific model like SoB, Eldar, etc.

So as someone else said they have a higher priority to do some of those first to make more profit. Eventually they will take care of every army.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

lordseamus said:


> I am new to the forum--so hello to you all. I have read the threads on the cost of making new models etc... I have been playing 40k since 87--so I am an old timer. I get the business end of what GW is trying to do, such as 'lets make stuff that sells.' But have you noticed how cyclical GW seems to be? Seems like that make an new army--then it sort of goes stale for a few years--and then they spring back with a new variation on the same army--sometimes making us buy new stuff (which I don't mind) to go along with new rules. That seems to be their history as I see it. Just thought I'd share.


and make different models or models completely new to the codex the better units in the codex.

Yeah we know, but it's nice to state for new players.


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## lordseamus (Apr 24, 2012)

I have an SOB army of the Order of the Argent Shroud. I sure would like to have some new models--I must say. Speaking of which--looking on ebay I saw that someone was selling female space marines supposedly made by Forge World. Anyone know anything about that?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Producing new boxes to match all the other new releases is expensive. You have to pay the art department to design the thing, then send it to print and production, then box stuff. It's a big investment that needs to sell a lot of models in order to recoup funds. Since there are very few SoB players and they probably don't intend to attract tons of new customers without new models and a new codex, they have saved themselves some cash by saving box/codex development and printing costs. Be happy that they didn't just cancel the army, ala Squats.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

jaysen said:


> Producing new boxes to match all the other new releases is expensive. You have to pay the art department to design the thing, then send it to print and production, then box stuff. It's a big investment that needs to sell a lot of models in order to recoup funds. Since there are very few SoB players and they probably don't intend to attract tons of new customers without new models and a new codex, they have saved themselves some cash by saving box/codex development and printing costs. Be happy that they didn't just cancel the army, ala Squats.


I really hate it when people say this "be happy if your army wasn't squatted." It is such an insult to sister players. How would you feel if your codex was reduce to bare and bones white dwarf and people said be happy you didn't get squatted. As for the need to do arts and design, that isn't that expensive, as you only need to pay them once.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

In reading up on the Squats it wasn't lack of popularity that was the death knell of the Squats but rather GW not really being able to work them into the game system.

Sure things cost like art work and codices etc but that is business, money invested, money returned that is all it comes down too. 

The Sisters are well established in the 40k Universe and I am sure that we will get our revamp of them ..... soon ..... ish.

Does any one know of comparative sales figures of the different types of GW mini's ?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

*waves at Lordseamus* Welcome to the forum, from another oldtimer :wink:

@magpie_oz: In the meeting I described on page 6, marines were 40% of all 40k sales, including marine add-ons like codeces. Chaos were next at around 12%, everyone else weighing in between 3 - 8%. Dark eldar were at the lower end with WH, eldar were around 6%, I can't accurately remember the others (it's been 5 years and two kids since then) but given it was Tom Kirby and Mark Wells telling us, I'd say it was accurate back then. DE will have moved since then, probably to about 5-6%. 

@everyone else:
There is another thing to consider that hasn't been raised: The theme of a Ministorum based book. 

Consider this: the Sisters are female, highly religious fanatics. Their list includes suicide squads and used to contain suicide bombers. They preach indoctrination, fanatisism, and dying for your religion. And little Timmy is going to read all this in a new codex and think it's cool. 

In todays day and age, what parent (who isn't a player themselves) is going to approve of that? 

There are a lot of factors to consider when making a new codex. GW are unlikely to want to drop a popular army, but influence from the real world *can* make doing some a worse idea than others. The update will do us for the moment whilst figures get done, but timing the release of such a codex could well make or break GW from a publicity point of view.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

very good point, I'd not even considered that angle


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> @everyone else:
> There is another thing to consider that hasn't been raised: The theme of a Ministorum based book.
> 
> Consider this: the Sisters are female, highly religious fanatics. Their list includes suicide squads and used to contain suicide bombers. They preach indoctrination, fanatisism, and dying for your religion. And little Timmy is going to read all this in a new codex and think it's cool.
> ...


That's a very interesting thought. I've always seen the Sisters are more focused on purging Heresy (aka the Spanish Inquisition) or being a parody of the Catholic church than anything.

I'll have to go back and look at my 2nd edition codex but I don't recall suicide bombers in there (and Sisters weren't a playable faction in Rogue Trader), but I may have forgotten.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I know I converted several figures for my first sisters army back in the late 90s / early 00s that had grenades strapped all over them, and I can't for the life of me remember where the rules for them are (I've just reread my 2nd ed codex). I do distinctly remember having legal rules for them setting themselves off in combat. They may well have been confessors with wargear or similar. *shrugs* 

Having reread the Sacred Rites in the 2nd Ed codex, the current faith system is still better than that was. :grin:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I remember Frenzon Controllers and Techpriests having remote detonation devices for Penal legion, but I can't remember Sisters killing themselves.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> I know I converted several figures for my first sisters army back in the late 90s / early 00s that had grenades strapped all over them, and I can't for the life of me remember where the rules for them are (I've just reread my 2nd ed codex). I do distinctly remember having legal rules for them setting themselves off in combat. They may well have been confessors with wargear or similar. *shrugs*
> 
> Having reread the Sacred Rites in the 2nd Ed codex, the current faith system is still better than that was. :grin:


Wasn't 3rd edition around that time? Maybe it was some alternate rules from a White Dwarf or something?

Yeah, the Sacred Rites where okay, but when it comes to the Faith System I'd rather have something like a hybrid of 3rd and 5th's rules. One table for everyone, but attempts like we have now (since it's a simple mechanic that can get as low as a 2+ for getting the Act off) but I think Faith Points could use a tweak. Like having them equal to the number of Faithful units in your army that haven't been destroyed/are falling back that turn (units not yet arrived from reserves would not count, but point generation could occur after reserve rolls but before the movement phase) each game turn.

Sorry, I've been spending a lot of time working on my draft of new stuff for GW again. I'm hoping that even if they don't use anything I send them that it inspires them to do something with the army anyways. Maybe showing them there are some dedicated fans out there might help?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

It's entirely possible I had allied guard and those were modelled for that. I'll do some digging when I have the chance.

on another note: boy, the 2nd Ed artwork is... Pointy, to say the least :wink: I hope some of the old Relics make a reappearance, if nothing else, the names are cool.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

People are looking at some flyers being released in the June WD. It would be sad to have DE, Necrons, SM, Orks, Chaos, etc. to get flyers and be totally left out as SoB players. Then again, they will get around to doing something for us when they have good models and rules.

For now patience and maybe what Zion is doing to show they have interested players and give them good ideas.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> For now patience and maybe what Zion is doing to show they have interested players and give them good ideas.


I'm being a complete and utter nerd and essentially writing a codex that combines aspects of all three codexs (background, rules, wargear, statlines, points costs), fan materials (not taking everything, just a few ideas that I've seen) and sending it into the design team with a large candy based bribe (as well as a digital copy so they can just copy and paste anything they like rather than retyping it). I'm not making drastic changes (no I7 Battle Sister Squads or anything like that), just trying to put something together that reflects the kind of dedication Sisters players have.

So basically I'm offering GW my time and commitment for free to do the legwork to give them a framework to build further on, or adjust and use. Because I'm giving it to them though I can't post it HERE or anywhere else though because you have to give up the rights to anything you give them (like this). Well that and I'm planning on sending a sugary bribe (perhaps a large bag of chocolates?) to encourage them to at least LOOK.

Even if they don't use anything I send them, if it gets them to realize that there are fans dedicated enough to put forth the time and effort to tackle a project like this it might get the ball rolling?

Yes I know this is kind of sad and rather insane to be pursuing this line of thought, but at this point, what can it hurt?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It can't hurt anything but your feelings.

Despite my strong negative opinion for what's been done, I'll point out that the Sisters still got SOMETHING to bring them in-line. Tau and BTs are now technically much older, and they, with DA, CSM, Eldar, Orks, and a swathe of WFB books, are theoretically much higher up the agenda.

Even if they love what you write, Sisters will be lucky to get a new Codex before 7th.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> It can't hurt anything but your feelings.
> 
> Despite my strong negative opinion for what's been done, I'll point out that the Sisters still got SOMETHING to bring them in-line. Tau and BTs are now technically much older, and they, with DA, CSM, Eldar, Orks, and a swathe of WFB books, are theoretically much higher up the agenda.
> 
> Even if they love what you write, Sisters will be lucky to get a new Codex before 7th.


Black Templars and Dark Angels got improvements to their codexes. Sisters had half of theirs torn out. I wouldn't say it's "in line".

GW has said more than once that they know which books need an update (and I highly doubt Sisters have come off that list) but they don't touch anything until they feel they have enough material, ideas and motivation to make a good codex. 

So what I'm basically saying is that they could totally shuffle the order based on having some material to work with and bump Sisters from 20XX to a more reasonable date.

EDIT: Yes I'm being silly, but I don't like the idea of quietly sitting on the sidelines on my hands, or shelving the army because I feel I'm being mistreated. And at the very least it keeps me busy.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm not trying to put you off, what you're doing is cool, and could indeed help...But the BTs and Tau, at the very very least, should come out before Sisters, due to the sheer amount of unusable gear and units.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm not trying to put you off, what you're doing is cool, and could indeed help...But the BTs and Tau, at the very very least, should come out before Sisters, due to the sheer amount of unusable gear and units.


I can agree with you on Tau, but Marines don't become unplayable that easilly (Dark Angels and Chaos Marines are worse off than Black Templars in terms of selection, unit pricing, special rules and the like and they still hold up better than Tau). Either way I'm not taking anything personally, just explaining my reasoning. With GW we've seen many occasions where "less deserving" codexes get updated before others, and honestly I wouldn't mind being on that list someday.

EDIT: And as for wargear I just want to point out that the Sister's entire Wargear section is 18 items (6 of which are vehicle items, most of which are just taken from the Space Marines codex, and at least 3 are just lifted straight from other books) and it all fits on a single sheet of 8.5"x11" paper.

This is down from what used to be about four pages. So in terms of "loss of usable gear" I'd say Sisters took a bigger hit than DA or BT, both of whom got erratas that fixed a majority of their wargear problems (like giving them 3++ Stormshields).


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm not trying to put you off, what you're doing is cool, and could indeed help...But the BTs and Tau, at the very very least, should come out before Sisters, due to the sheer amount of unusable gear and units.


I disagree, you guys have plastic models which you can buy in sets. Do you know how expensive it is to start sisters? I have to buy each model individually which are metal and only have one pose. Not to mention what little choices we have in the book (ex. one troop choice).


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Erratas to correct points costs is an unsustainable model. BTs special characters still require permission, their Drop Pods come in as standard reserves, they have wargear that's not much better than nothing, and I'm sure they have one or two items that literally do nothing, like Tau...though I can't think of any off-hand.

I really DO have sympathy for the cost of starting Sisters...but the fact is, virtually no-one would start them with that crap army list, even if the range wasn't 99% metal.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Erratas to correct points costs is an unsustainable model. BTs special characters still require permission, their Drop Pods come in as standard reserves, they have wargear that's not much better than nothing, and I'm sure they have one or two items that literally do nothing, like Tau...though I can't think of any off-hand.
> 
> I really DO have sympathy for the cost of starting Sisters...but the fact is, virtually no-one would start them with that crap army list, even if the range wasn't 99% metal.


But the fact remains that you have far more viable war-gear and options then the sisters do. Your last point only weakens your argument, a crappy army list is even more of a reason that the sisters of battle need to be redone. Also lots of people would use the sister models to do conversion.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I don't play BTs. But they're certainly one of the worst, if not THE worst, Marine books.

Thing is, Marines can be relied upon to sell, even if shit. Sisters can't. Hopefully when they reimagine Sisters for their next book, they'll only have Carapace Armour...Then they might actually get to be cheap enough to run as a horde, instead of being shit.

Would also be fluffier.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, I don't play BTs. But they're certainly one of the worst, if not THE worst, Marine books.
> 
> Thing is, Marines can be relied upon to sell, even if shit. Sisters can't. Hopefully when they reimagine Sisters for their next book, they'll only have Carapace Armour...Then they might actually get to be cheap enough to run as a horde, instead of being shit.
> 
> Would also be fluffier.


Worse marine book does not mean you need an update more then other armies who are in worse condition. As for your other comment it is an attempt to troll sister players by enraging them. Cause before sisters got the white dwarf update they were a decent army that could be played competitively.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> I really hate it when people say this "be happy if your army wasn't squatted." It is such an insult to sister players. How would you feel if your codex was reduce to bare and bones white dwarf and people said be happy you didn't get squatted. As for the need to do arts and design, that isn't that expensive, as you only need to pay them once.


They did do that to my army. Blood angels were completely nerfed in White Dwarf before the newest codex came out.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

jaysen said:


> They did do that to my army. Blood angels were completely nerfed in White Dwarf before the newest codex came out.


And how fun was it to play with blood angels in a white dwarf codex?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Worse marine book does not mean you need an update more then other armies who are in worse condition. As for your other comment it is an attempt to troll sister players by enraging them. Cause before sisters got the white dwarf update they were a decent army that could be played competitively.


Yeah, they were. And it's a shame. But Power Armour shouldn't work without a Black Carapace, just like Inquisitors shouldn't get it. At the very least, it should make you very slow.

As for BA's WDdex, it was better than DA at the time...


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, they were. And it's a shame. But Power Armour shouldn't work without a Black Carapace, just like Inquisitors shouldn't get it. At the very least, it should make you very slow.
> 
> As for BA's WDdex, it was better than DA at the time...


There are two types of Power armour. Their is civilian power armour which doesn't need black carapace and then their is the space marine power armour which require black carapace. You can see dark heresy and death watch for these rules. They even have Inquisitorial Terminator armour which is built for humans. Power armour actual makes you move faster (both civilian and black carapace) but in dark heresy and death watch wearing civilian power armour gives the enemy a +10 to hit you unlike the black carapace version.

Before you make an argument saying their should be some differences between the two on the table top, remember that 40k uses a d6 system in which case the power armour works the same.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sorry, I don't buy that. It sounds like a semi-retcon, not least as they haven't removed the fluff about Marines needing the Black Carapace to increases their strength to move as easily as if naked. At the very least, it should bear an I penalty, though the fact that Inquisitorial suits aren't mass-produced the way SoB armour is I can live with it not doing so for them (although I have a CLEAR preference...)

Also, 'civilian' ? Lol. I'm sure that's not the right word...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, they were. And it's a shame. But Power Armour shouldn't work without a Black Carapace, just like Inquisitors shouldn't get it. At the very least, it should make you very slow.


And that's why they're I3 (mostly). Well that and the lack of combat stilletos that give I6.

Not to mention Power Armor works without the Black Carapace, it's just that the way the Space Marine's armor works in combination with the Black Carapace turns it from a reactive suit of protective armor that enhances your strength and endurance into a second skin that moves as fast at the Marine's nerves can transmit the signal to move. It's why Marines are I4, their enhanced physiology isn't slowed down by the armor. That and it's able to feed information back into the Marine's body letting him have a better understanding of what's around him, how much pressure is being exerted on his armor....ect.

As for the Sisters, I look at I3 being fair. They react a little slower since the armor has to react to what the Sister is doing (though its possible it can read the electronic signals of their nerves but it's still probably slower than being directly plugged in) while she reacts to what's going on around her. With the extent of their training though, I am willing to bet that they are at least as fast as a normal person in their armor thanks to being used to working around this problem, if not a little faster.

And yes, because the armor can't feed information back into their bodies like the Marine's can that would be why the Sister have things like prey sight. Either way the armor would still make the Sisters stronger and more protected than a normal human (though they aren't giant slabs of meat with double the number of normal organs like Marines so won't be S4/T4) but it also gives them a greater amount of endurance since they can use the armor to support the weight of things like their Bolters (which are MASSIVE weapons) and heavier weapons like the Multi-Melta instead of their bodies doing as much work.

EDIT: We need to remember that these numbers we see are generalizations to represent a concept. If normal Humans are S3, but Marines are large, more powerful then making them all S4 shows that well without breaking the game. But the numbers can represent anything from a small gap to a rather large one with a lot of deviation because if it was real life the differences between Marine to Marine would be as different as person to person. 

TL;DR: Don't get too caught up on the numbers. They're there to represent a concept not to actually represent the full range of the differences that would occur from person to person, Marine to Marine, ect.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Sorry, I don't buy that. It sounds like a semi-retcon, not least as they haven't removed the fluff about Marines needing the Black Carapace to increases their strength to move as easily as if naked. At the very least, it should bear an I penalty, though the fact that Inquisitorial suits aren't mass-produced the way SoB armour is I can live with it not doing so for them (although I have a CLEAR preference...)
> 
> Also, 'civilian' ? Lol. I'm sure that's not the right word...


Sorry to say this but it doesn't matter what you think cause that is what is in the dark heresy rule book. If you don't believe me you can buy the dark heresy rule book and read it for yourself. Now sisters actually do wear a different type of power armour from civilian version which is also represent in dark heresy expansion rule book dark heresy: blood of martyrs.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sisters don't earn I4 anyway though. They're basically Veteran IG in PA, arguably braver. It'd be very interesting if they were I2, as much as the caps locking would be tiresome. More unique statlines are good for the game.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Sisters don't earn I4 anyway though. They're basically Veteran IG in PA, arguably braver. It'd be very interesting if they were I2, as much as the caps locking would be tiresome. More unique statlines are good for the game.


Your know making a big mistake, your telling fluff dictate the rules which is a terrible thing to do. In dark heresy and death watch nothing says that power armour slows down your speed in any way. You may want it to work like that but that's not how it works. Celestians and Seraphims should be I4, in order to be competitive, the game should be fun and balance before being fluffy. Or else space marines stat lines would be way higher.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> the game should be fun and balance before being fluffy.


Absolutely. And SIsters aren't a CC army, and shouldn't try to be. Repentia, DCA, Penitent Engines - these are CC units, yes, but everything else should be ok at best. [At least, everything from the current selection.]

I don't honestly care very much what fluff by a subsidiary says, GW can and will change it on a whim - but still current Marine fluff says that PA would slow even them down, if not for the neural interface the Carapace provides. *Shrug* Marines SHOULD be better, and the system should be d10 not d6, but sadly it is d6, and they aren't.

Sisters should be balanced by:
a) Weight of numbers
b) Incredible close-range firepower. Something like Lysander's Bolter Drill, but for all Celestians, for instance. Hurricane Bolter turrets for Immolators maybe.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Absolutely. And SIsters aren't a CC army, and shouldn't try to be. Repentia, DCA, Penitent Engines - these are CC units, yes, but everything else should be ok at best. [At least, everything from the current selection.]
> 
> I don't honestly care very much what fluff by a subsidiary says, GW can and will change it on a whim - but still current Marine fluff says that PA would slow even them down, if not for the neural interface the Carapace provides. *Shrug* Marines SHOULD be better, and the system should be d10 not d6, but sadly it is d6, and they aren't.
> 
> ...


Celestians are a close combat warriors. It says so in their fluff and is somewhat represented in their rules. Also I don't think GW can actually change their fluff on a whim do to the contract they have with fantasy flight (or at-least they won't) whose rules has the actually 40k logo on it.

Also what your describing is a guard army. Effectively all your suggestions seem to be making sisters into guard 2.0.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Sisters don't earn I4 anyway though. They're basically Veteran IG in PA, arguably braver. It'd be very interesting if they were I2, as much as the caps locking would be tiresome. More unique statlines are good for the game.


So you want them to be worse then they are now and be completely slaughtered when they get locked into combat with other I3 models then? They have a pretty unique statline for an army as the only thing that is legitimately close are Stormtroopers (but they rock worse armor and lower leadership)and I don't think they really need to be changed all that much as an army (other than maybe some new wargear options, the ability to make units exchange their ranged abilities for some close combat ones.... but that's all just me rambling again).

But that's just my bias speaking now.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Not really, IG are much more about ranged firepower. I don't want Sisters to have Artillery. I want Bolters, Flamers, and Meltas, the Trifecta of Blessed Weaponry. Oh, and massive fuck-off Chainswords.

Lasguns can suck a dick.

Celestians aren't a true CC unit, and never can be. They aren't going to be given Power Weapons, or 4A each, so they'll never beat other CC units. Makes it a waste of time paying points for stuff you won't use. They deserve a decent WS, fine, they can hold their own, but as a defensive CC prowess, like a Dire Avenger has.

I don't want Sisters to be IG any more than I want them to be T3 Marines. I want to create a unique niche like GKs have, and that through, rather than Henchmen like GKs do, the Frateris Militia. They would basically be Good Chaos Cultists. Shotguns, Fearless, Priests, tons of bodies, shitty stats. They'd bubblewrap while Sisters unleashed volley after volley of disciplined Bolter fire. My vision of Sisters is a great one, I wish you could read my mental imagery rather than me try to convey it. I think, at the very least, you'd agree it would be interesting, even if not how you'd like ideally.

@Zion - hardly. Name me an I3 unit that would have sufficient Power Weapons to threaten Sisters? Especially if they get to use pistols in CC in 6th, which removes the S3 issue too...


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> *waves at Lordseamus* Welcome to the forum, from another oldtimer :wink:
> 
> @magpie_oz: In the meeting I described on page 6, marines were 40% of all 40k sales, including marine add-ons like codeces. .


Now, when you say marines, you are talking about all the space marine derived codices or just the space marines codices? I see space marines, blood angels, space wolves, black templars, and grey knights as completely different codices. Sure, they have similar armor and weapons, but they are definitely different codices.

To be fair, you should break these numbers into each distinct codex, not group them into armies that look similar.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Not really, IG are much more about ranged firepower. I don't want Sisters to have Artillery. I want Bolters, Flamers, and Meltas, the Trifecta of Blessed Weaponry. Oh, and massive fuck-off Chainswords.
> 
> Lasguns can suck a dick.
> 
> ...


So you want sisters not to have any long range and suck in close combat. Wow that is a great idea for an army, lets give them two major weakness and make them good only for one or two turns (not to mention them having limited weapons as well). As for Celestians not getting power weapons, they get them in dark heresy but hi, the more restrictions we put on an army, the more fun the army gets... right? Also what are Dire avengers intiative? Sure Celestians shouldn't beat CC units but they should be able to beat tactical marine squad in close combat (which isn't a cc unit). If they don't have I4, their not going to be able to do that.

I have nothing against Frateris Militia but what I do have a problem is the weak sisters suck in close combat so we have to send in the men to do the fighting for them.


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

just my 2 cents...my wife plays sob, if u havent tabled her by turn 3 u have lost...its walking tanks and fire...she has all inf and 3 excoricist tanks with a range of meltas and heavy bolters...one game she shot a tau army off the board by turn 2, dow deployment...she loves the new over the old codex.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

What I don't understand is that they HAD the material and left it out. They didn't need to make new models, new rules or alter anything, just add more to the list that got left out. I don't understand why SoB can't take:

-Landraiders (ok maybe they want a different feel for the army?)
-Inquisitorial Chimeras
-Razorbacks (Well we do have Immolators...) 
-Whirlwinds (and Excorcists)
-The vast majority of Inquisitorial Henchmen like Mystics, Acolytes, Servitors, why wouldn't the Ecclesiarchy have these? Servoskulls anyone?
-Stormtroopers

Then many units are rubish like Priests, Celestians, Canoness, Command squad or vanilla Confessors. Repentia vs other units in the codex like Death Cult Assassins are laughable. Penitent engines are still pitiful compared to their counter parts in other codex. Myself and any other competitive player would never take any of these and are not going to buy the models. GW is shooting themselves in the foot by making these units terrible. If PEngines were at least like Kans I might take them. 

It's like they were starting to make a really great codex and then just stopped half way through and published it.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Arcane said:


> What I don't understand is that they HAD the material and left it out. They didn't need to make new models, new rules or alter anything, just add more to the list that got left out. I don't understand why SoB can't take:
> 
> -Landraiders (ok maybe they want a different feel for the army?)
> -Inquisitorial Chimeras
> ...


Ecclesiarchy got to much influence at one point and cause a huge civil war with the Imperium that nearly destroyed it. As a result they were not allowed to bear men under arms (which is why sisters are all females) and have other restrictions (like sisters not having a fleet on top of many other things). As for all the Inquisition stuff, that is due to Grey Knight Codex who all three Inquisition factions are part of, meaning the sisters are no longer part of the Inquisition.



TheKingElessar said:


> @Zion - hardly. Name me an I3 unit that would have sufficient Power Weapons to threaten Sisters? Especially if they get to use pistols in CC in 6th, which removes the S3 issue too...


Clearly you don't understand how to kill sisters. You don't use power weapons or ap3 weapons to kill them but you do lots of wounds to them, the best weapon to kill sisters is a heavy bolter, as your wounding them on 2's with it. I3 units that can beat a normal sisters squad? Guardsmen with a normal commissar charging the sisters. Also don't use rumors to support your argument.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I love the sisters. But, you guys that think the game should be based on the fluff have it all backwards... Fluff is made up stuff to make the game more memorable. It is based entirely on the game and should have no (take not that I said no, as in zero) influence on the rules or stats of the game.

That being said, they need to look at the meta-game and create codices that are competitive. If they can remain within the legacy of fluff, all the better. If not, then make new fluff and discard the old. If you don't understand, reference the current Matt Ward codices.

The only problem I have with Sisters of Battle is the lack of new/plastic models and the insane price tag on current ones. If they'd come out with a 10-woman squad with a $37.00 price tag, or comparable to space marines tactical squad, I'd be happy. SoB is my secondary army.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Of course I understand how to kill them, they're T3, it's not hard. Heavy Bolters aren't the best weapon, the best ranged weapon would obviously be AP3, perhaps a Battlecannon, or, more likely, a Colossus' mortar. Neither of those can be used in CC of course, which is what we spoke of. There are no I3 units I can think of (of course, I maybe forgot something obvious) that would easily beat even I2 Sisters in CC. Guardsmen with a Commissar CAN beat them, but shouldn't, statistically, given they may not shoot at full effect and also assault.

I didn't say no long range, I said no Artillery. Not the same.

Also, I want Repentia and Penitent Engines to be the CC hitters, not Frateris Militia. :/
Militia are there to bubblewrap as I said - to delay the enemy and block movement etc....to basically function as Kroot do, in the simplest terms. To give the rest of the force more shooting phases in which to bring things down.

Anyway, armies can win at 40k without CC elements now, so, again, paying points to be half-decent in CC is a waste if you can instead spend them on more shooting.

Finally, Celestians beating Tacticals? You forget perhaps that Tacticals are the best of the line Marines. The ones with most experience of the theatres of war, excepting of course Veterans of whatever description. Beating Tacticals in CC is an easy barometer to understand, and for balance arguably important - but in reality, being able to fight them to a standstill should be where Celestians aspire too. Should only be winning that if you've invested points in doing so (eg, a Power Weapon.)


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Of course I understand how to kill them, they're T3, it's not hard. Heavy Bolters aren't the best weapon, the best ranged weapon would obviously be AP3, perhaps a Battlecannon, or, more likely, a Colossus' mortar. Neither of those can be used in CC of course, which is what we spoke of. There are no I3 units I can think of (of course, I maybe forgot something obvious) that would easily beat even I2 Sisters in CC. Guardsmen with a Commissar CAN beat them, but shouldn't, statistically, given they may not shoot at full effect and also assault.
> 
> I didn't say no long range, I said no Artillery. Not the same.
> 
> ...


Once again your letting the fluff cloud your judgement, by that argument a tactical should be able to defeat an assault marine even know we know that is not the case. The fact is when we take out the fluff and look at them stat wise, they are not a close combat unit at all. If a tactical squad is better then you at close combat, then you suck at close combat.

Also Guardsmen would easily defeat sisters if sisters were I2. Hell even tau would be able to put a fight seeing as they would strike at the same time. In fact lets reverse the question, name me an I3 units that sisters could easily beat if they were I2. Also I decided to math hammer it, guardsmen with a commissar charging sisters will win even when the sisters are I3.

Also for having Repentia, Penitent engines as close combat? Well Repentia is a suicide unit that to be honest will probably die most of the time in close combat but will take down the enemy with them unless they have invu saves (so wyches, termiantors, wraiths will destory repentias while not taking much casualties). That is if you can get them into combat and they are not shot to death. So in the end their not really a close combat unit but a suicide unit. As for Peitent Engines, good luck getting it in close combat. Even if it becomes a monstrous creature, being I3 and probably much weaker then a dreadknight will mean it won't be that great in close combat, if it doesn't get shot to death and it does scream, shoot me, shoot me.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

jaysen said:


> Now, when you say marines, you are talking about all the space marine derived codices or just the space marines codices? I see space marines, blood angels, space wolves, black templars, and grey knights as completely different codices. Sure, they have similar armor and weapons, but they are definitely different codices.
> 
> To be fair, you should break these numbers into each distinct codex, not group them into armies that look similar.


You make it sound like I make the decisions :wink:

It was Tom and Mark that grouped them like that. And it makes perfect sense to have the marines lumped in as one from the point of view of those *outside* the hobby. They are all, after all, men in power armour. Marines sell well. Why overcomplicate the figures by saying grey marines sell better than green ones?

As for all the hate going on about the new 'dex: it's not a nerf, it's *a new list*. Treat it as such and you'll see it works just fine. And this from someone who regularly plays a pure Sisters force, and has done for over a decade. Never needed the inquisition to win, and have been winning more with this list than the old one. 

Of course, that's just me :wink:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Once again your letting the fluff cloud your judgement, by that argument a tactical should be able to defeat an assault marine even know we know that is not the case. The fact is when we take out the fluff and look at them stat wise, they are not a close combat unit at all. If a tactical squad is better then you at close combat, then you suck at close combat.
> 
> Also Guardsmen would easily defeat sisters if sisters were I2. Hell even tau would be able to put a fight seeing as they would strike at the same time. In fact lets reverse the question, name me an I3 units that sisters could easily beat if they were I2. Also I decided to math hammer it, guardsmen with a commissar charging sisters will win even when the sisters are I3.
> 
> Also for having Repentia, Penitent engines as close combat? Well Repentia is a suicide unit that to be honest will probably die most of the time in close combat but will take down the enemy with them unless they have invu saves (so wyches, termiantors, wraiths will destory repentias while not taking much casualties). That is if you can get them into combat and they are not shot to death. So in the end their not really a close combat unit but a suicide unit. As for Peitent Engines, good luck getting it in close combat. Even if it becomes a monstrous creature, being I3 and probably much weaker then a dreadknight will mean it won't be that great in close combat, if it doesn't get shot to death and it does scream, shoot me, shoot me.


No, because a charging Assault Marine is still getting an advantage over the Tactical in terms of positioning, element of surprise, whatever. Statwise, Tacs are no worse than ASM, for obvious reason. Tactical Squads are still Marines - and Marines are the elite. Fuck, ignoring fluff, they still have an above (the theoretical) average Statline, so they can hardly truly be said to suck at anything! That's the point. For a Celestian squad to stand up to Tacticals, and beat them in a situation where the Superior's running around with a PW/Eviscerator is exactly the level they SHOULD be at. Assault Marines charging Sisters should tear them apart.

Well, I don't know how many Guardsmen you worked it out with, so without that information, no conclusions can be drawn.

You also seem to be missing my point that IG trying to assault Sisters (since they have no Assault vehicles to shield their approach) will just explode in a shower of blood and gristle in the Bolter fusillade.

An I3 unit Sisters could easily beat at I2 themselves? Easy, 20 Conscripts vs 10 Battle Sisters. Again, however, Bolters.

Perhaps Repentia need more weapon options? Bearing in mind Confessors will still give the army access to DCA, Crusaders and Arco-Flagellents...
Penitent Engines are better off as Walkers IMO. Yeah, they scream shoot me, so you grant them cover by hiding them behind a wall of Immolators/Rhinos. You reflect their weakness and lack of flexibility in their points cost, and they get held back by the hulls preventing their Rage being a drawback.

Have you seen Cabin in the Woods? (Irrelevant as it seems, it's important...)


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> No, because a charging Assault Marine is still getting an advantage over the Tactical in terms of positioning, element of surprise, whatever. Statwise, Tacs are no worse than ASM, for obvious reason. Tactical Squads are still Marines - and Marines are the elite. Fuck, ignoring fluff, they still have an above (the theoretical) average Statline, so they can hardly truly be said to suck at anything! That's the point. For a Celestian squad to stand up to Tacticals, and beat them in a situation where the Superior's running around with a PW/Eviscerator is exactly the level they SHOULD be at. Assault Marines charging Sisters should tear them apart.


And that's the level we're already at, so why make it so they get killed before they get to swing against everything else (save for Necrons and Power Fists)?



TheKingElessar said:


> Well, I don't know how many Guardsmen you worked it out with, so without that information, no conclusions can be drawn.




Just for fun I did some math with the Combat Calculator:

Currently 10 Sisters in Combat with 10 Guardsmen (no special equipment or characters, just measuring ability against ability here (so no charge either)): 
Sisters:



> Attacks:10
> Hit Chance:50%[
> SIZE=2]Hits:[/SIZE]5
> Wound Chance:50%
> ...




and at the same time Guard:



> Attacks:10
> Hit Chance:50%
> Hits:5
> Wound Chance:50%
> ...


So as it stands right now 10 Guard vs 10 Battle Sisters = 1 dead Sister, 2 dead Guardsmen. Now let's look at it if the Sisters were I2. Since the Sisters will lose some models I'll start with Guard:



> Attacks:10
> Hit Chance:50%
> Hits:5
> Wound Chance:50%
> ...




So no changes there. What about the Sisters? Well they already lost a model so now 9 models are swinging back:





> Attacks:9
> Hit Chance:50%
> Hits:4.5
> Wound Chance:50%
> ...




Doesn't look like much of a change with the Sisters dropping from 1.667 killed to 1.5, but this is without any special equipment or a charge. If you start tooling up the squads and comparing things like getting charging attacks and the like it gets more muddled. This minor shift here becomes more significant the more we dig into this. Against a normal Guard unit the Sisters would likely be stuck in combat with 15-30 Guardsmen which is devastating to their numbers normally, but they'd normally get to swing at the same time, if they go afterwards they'll lose any sort of combat effectiveness they have and be wiped completely.



TheKingElessar said:


> You also seem to be missing my point that IG trying to assault Sisters (since they have no Assault vehicles to shield their approach) will just explode in a shower of blood and gristle in the Bolter fusillade. [/quote
> 
> Since I still have it open let's look at the possible outcomes of Sisters shooting Guardsmen with just Bolters (just for fun):
> 
> ...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, then I won't spoil it with the image I was trying to convey.

Penitents are shit under the current rules, yes. But Rage compels them to move in a direct line, and a Rhino Chassis in the way blocks them.

(Wait, does it? Or does it only force you to end your move closer? If the latter, that's easy...)

The Guard aren't going to be in Cover if trying to assault you unless it's the craters of their own vehicles. Unlike Marines, SoBs should be using squads in concert, not independently, so you'd rarely, if ever, get into that situation. Plus, of course, you could afford to fire a couple squads of Sisters' Bolters into them, having created a gap in the Rhino wall for the PE to assault - and you can always block the IG with the Rhinos too. 

Ten IG have 12 Attacks, they have a Sergeant, who may not have a Lasgun but must have pistol and CCW. All it does is change that .8 to a 1. I would have Sister Superiors mandatory too of course, adding an A or two to the Sisters' attacks.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, then I won't spoil it with the image I was trying to convey.
> 
> Penitents are shit under the current rules, yes. But Rage compels them to move in a direct line, and a Rhino Chassis in the way blocks them.
> 
> (Wait, does it? Or does it only force you to end your move closer? If the latter, that's easy...)


I'll have to double check when I get off work but I believe that it means that when you move you must move the furthest you can towards an enemy unit. 

And as it's an open-topped walker the 4+ cover save is nice but it's likelihood of dying is probably increased in this way as you're not taking advantage of the run movements and instead slowing down a model that really needs to get to the other end of the board.

I just thought of something that could potentially fix it. Outflanking (though I'd probably say it should be able to have a chance to come in on the opponent's board edge too). Having the Pentinent Engine be able to burst in Kool-Aid Man style from the board edge would make it immensely better since you'd be able to get them into the Assault a lot sooner. 



TheKingElessar said:


> The Guard aren't going to be in Cover if trying to assault you unless it's the craters of their own vehicles. Unlike Marines, SoBs should be using squads in concert, not independently, so you'd rarely, if ever, get into that situation. Plus, of course, you could afford to fire a couple squads of Sisters' Bolters into them, having created a gap in the Rhino wall for the PE to assault - and you can always block the IG with the Rhinos too.


Guard shouldn't be working alone either, and often done (unless they're a Vet Guard army, but that's a different story). And considering the Guards MANY tanks of "accidentally your whole unit" with large templates and AP3/2 or via a high volume of shots the Sisters are probably going to be trying to utilize everything they've got to shut the tanks down at the same time. Which means not shooting at the Guardsmen.

And Pentinent Engines compete with the Exorcist which gives a LOT more bang for it's points cost and is the only thing in the book with a 42".



TheKingElessar said:


> Ten IG have 12 Attacks, they have a Sergeant, who may not have a Lasgun but must have pistol and CCW. All it does is change that .8 to a 1. I would have Sister Superiors mandatory too of course, adding an A or two to the Sisters' attacks.


I left them out because I wanted to look strictly at the basic troops of either side in a straight up fight. When you start talking about Superiors then you usually talk about Power Weapons, same for the Guard Sergeant if you're planning on having to deal with any combat (might as well make those wounds stick after all), Commissars also tend to have Power Weapons, and either are supported by their tanks which would swing the results all sorts of ways. So for the sake of simplicity and eliminating variables I left them out.

Also if I was planning on assaulting with a Guard unit (say I moved my Chimera up, hopped out and rapid fired) I'd try and keep at least some of them in cover to protect them during my opponent's turn so that I'd have a better chance of not losing models and being able to bring the hammer.

Then again if I was playing Guard I'd be assaulting with 30 models against units of 10 instead of bringing 10.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Ecclesiarchy got to much influence at one point and cause a huge civil war with the Imperium that nearly destroyed it. As a result they were not allowed to bear men under arms (which is why sisters are all females) and have other restrictions (like sisters not having a fleet on top of many other things). As for all the Inquisition stuff, that is due to Grey Knight Codex who all three Inquisition factions are part of, meaning the sisters are no longer part of the Inquisition.


I've been playing both Greyknights (Daemonhunters) and Sisters of Battle (Witchhunters) for something like 7 years now. I'm very familiar with the whys and wherefores of both armies and how they have changed.

Just because the Adeptus Sororitas have no men doesn't mean they can't pilot a LandRaider or Razorback. Also there is no reason the Ecclesiarchy cannot deploy Mystics, Acolytes, Servitors and all the other things I listed. Like Uriah Jacobus, they are not men at arms but simply priests or lay members of the Ecclesiarchy who also happen to kick lots of ass between prayers. 

The reason of no longer being part of the Inquisition, giving their codex a huge model and unit count nerf is just pure laziness.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Arcane said:


> I've been playing both Greyknights (Daemonhunters) and Sisters of Battle (Witchhunters) for something like 7 years now. I'm very familiar with the whys and wherefores of both armies and how they have changed.
> 
> Just because the Adeptus Sororitas have no men doesn't mean they can't pilot a LandRaider or Razorback. Also there is no reason the Ecclesiarchy cannot deploy Mystics, Acolytes, Servitors and all the other things I listed. Like Uriah Jacobus, they are not men at arms but simply priests or lay members of the Ecclesiarchy who also happen to kick lots of ass between prayers.
> 
> The reason of no longer being part of the Inquisition, giving their codex a huge model and unit count nerf is just pure laziness.


Sisters of battle are not allowed to pilot Landriaders and razorbacks due to the decree passive. In fact when one of the orders were given the Repressors for helping arbites put down a revolution, it cause some conflicts within the sister hood and had to be resolved by the Lords of Terra (who then said it was the Emperor will for the sisters to get repressors). Now this entire argument can easily be negated by new codex which can changes this fluff and says sisters can have tanks and a navy.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> Celestians are a close combat warriors. It says so in their fluff and is somewhat represented in their rules. Also I don't think GW can actually change their fluff on a whim do to the contract they have with fantasy flight (or at-least they won't) whose rules has the actually 40k logo on it.
> 
> Also what your describing is a guard army. Effectively all your suggestions seem to be making sisters into guard 2.0.


I think the relationship you have there is backwards between FFG and GW. GW holds the license and FFG makes things with the license that they clear through GW first. If GW wants to it can do whatever it wants to with the fluff and doesn't need any permission at all from FFG.

I'll say "Hi" to Mack for you next time I'm there if you want.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Sisters of battle are not allowed to pilot Landriaders and razorbacks due to the decree passive. .


Also they are not allowed land raiders due to a decree by the Emperor during the Horus Heresy that all loyalist landraiders be handed over to the Loyalist marine legions. As this decree was never rescinded due to the emperoro incapicitation it still stands. Of course this goes double for SOB as it is, to them, the word of god...


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Sisters of battle are not allowed to pilot Landriaders and razorbacks due to the decree passive. In fact when one of the orders were given the Repressors for helping arbites put down a revolution, it cause some conflicts within the sister hood and had to be resolved by the Lords of Terra (who then said it was the Emperor will for the sisters to get repressors). Now this entire argument can easily be negated by new codex which can changes this fluff and says sisters can have tanks and a navy.


I'll admit I have not read the book you are referring to specifically however the decree passive states that the Ecclesiarchy cannot have a standing army of men at arms. So what does that have to do with taking a big gun and putting it on the top of a Rhino, which is pretty much what a Razorback is? Yet they can have an Immolator which is almost the exact same thing but with less options. 

Now unless the Sisters are turning wrenches themselves there are some Adeptus Mechanicus somewhere out there helping them outfit their vehicles and it's silly that they can have a Rhino with a MultiMelta on top but can't put an Assault Cannon up there. If it's a question of what gear they can actually get their hands on, let's assume they literally have no access to Plasma Guns, Assault Cannons, Lascannons etc, okay. What's to stop them from making a Predator with Heavy Flamer variants or Heavy Bolters? 

Why can't GW make up a tank, call it the Excommunicator or Purginatinatinor or some other crap, have it based on a Rhino with existing models and give the SoB more options without having to recast a single model? Hell, they don't even come in Boxes any more so they don't even have to print a label!?

You can come up with some weird fluff explanation but it comes down to SoB having a half written codex and the real reason is probably Matt IHateSoB(and probably all women in general) Ward.



Yllib Enaz said:


> Also they are not allowed land raiders due to a decree by the Emperor during the Horus Heresy that all loyalist landraiders be handed over to the Loyalist marine legions. As this decree was never rescinded due to the emperoro incapicitation it still stands. Of course this goes double for SOB as it is, to them, the word of god...


Which was the distant past. New Landraiders have been made since then, many of which have been taken by Inquisitors for their use and are no longer in the possession of Loyalist Marine Legions. However that was before all this stuff got retconned out and suddenly Inquisitors only work with Greyknights because they really needed more units/options in their codex.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Matt Ward is in no way responsible for the Sisters' current state...


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

*checks her white dwarf 380, p.90*

Uhm, "written by Robin Cruddace and Matt Ward". Sorry.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Arcane said:


> I'll admit I have not read the book you are referring to specifically however the decree passive states that the Ecclesiarchy cannot have a standing army of men at arms. So what does that have to do with taking a big gun and putting it on the top of a Rhino, which is pretty much what a Razorback is? Yet they can have an Immolator which is almost the exact same thing but with less options.
> 
> Now unless the Sisters are turning wrenches themselves there are some Adeptus Mechanicus somewhere out there helping them outfit their vehicles and it's silly that they can have a Rhino with a MultiMelta on top but can't put an Assault Cannon up there. If it's a question of what gear they can actually get their hands on, let's assume they literally have no access to Plasma Guns, Assault Cannons, Lascannons etc, okay. What's to stop them from making a Predator with Heavy Flamer variants or Heavy Bolters?
> 
> ...


I do agree, I would love to see sisters get new tanks but in order to do so their going to need their fluff to be changed in the new codex (which should happen).

Decree Passive is more then just the Ecclesiarchy cannot bear arms, it puts restrictions on sisters. Like if you go to the Witch Hunter Codex and look at the Important Note for Orbital Strikes, it says sisters cannot maintain its own war fleets.


TheKingElessar said:


> Matt Ward is in no way responsible for the Sisters' current state...


I do agree. It was who ever decided to put sisters in a white dwarf codex and not give them plastic models on top of many other reasons.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> *checks her white dwarf 380, p.90*
> 
> Uhm, "written by Robin Cruddace and Matt Ward". Sorry.


Ward wrote the fluff, Cruddace the list. Since no-one has expressed an issue with the fluff, as far as I'm aware...


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Ward wrote the fluff, Cruddace the list. Since no-one has expressed an issue with the fluff, as far as I'm aware...


Do you have a source for this, that Ward wrote the fluff and Cruddace wrote the rules.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm pretty sure it was in one of those same WDs...possibly in the Battle Report where Cruddace played the Sisters vs Nids.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I've got the WDs here I can check after dinner. Of course the HQ makes the final descision and choices as to what will and won't happen, however, every time GW makes a Codex that stinks of something wrong it has Ward's name all over it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, that's your opinion, but I'd like to point out that for two years it was 'Wolves are OP!11!' everywhere, and Ward didn't write that one...


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Meh Wolves have a few units that are crazy, sure, but generally they are not that big of a deal. Last time I faced a heavy weps missile list and I wasn't too impressed. Anyways, looked through WD quickly, didn't find that part... My gripe is, I play GK, I really like them, but wtf the codex is just too much. It's like 2 armies in there and almost everything is extremely powerful. The same can be said of Blood Angels who also get all sorts of unprecedented powerful units, often times at the same or near point cost as similar units in other codex. Sure is good for selling models, not so good for power creep. Then they come out with this WD codex, super half assed, with most of the flavorful units given to GK who definitely didn't need more HQs or Elites but got em anyways. Why nerf the Canoness, was she just tearing apart the tourney circuit? Why nerf Immolators? I guess they were just selling too many of them they couldn't even keep up printing boxes for them (see first post). Believe me, I'm not bitching about GK because I don't like them. There are about 80 of them on my shelf right now and have been for years. 

Maybe I will eat my words when they come out with a SoB codex within the next couple years and prove that they actually do care about their loyal, long time fans/customers. Necrons were really surprisingly well done, though they did take quite a big crap on the old fluff for them... maybe that was a good thing in that particular circumstance.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Matt Ward is in no way responsible for the Sisters' current state...


He might not be entirely to blame, or he isn't the only or major cause, so far I could agree.
But I think he did his fair share in all the annoyance Sister-fans had to endure from GW.
His Sister fluff in the GK Codex for instance. What did it tell me?
- GKs aren't fit for the job they were made for, fighting demons
- Sisters are purer than GKs
As such, I see it as completely pointless and considering HOW it was written, had only one purpose, annoying SoB-players!
Unnecessary to note, I am NOT the most objective of people!


TheKingElessar said:


> Ward wrote the fluff, Cruddace the list. Since no-one has expressed an issue with the fluff, as far as I'm aware...


No issues with fluff!?!
What about turning Saint Celestine into a one woman Legion of the Damned?
What about Sisters (with the exception of Celestine) winning anything of significance?
What being the point of revoking Praxedes's Sainthood?
Or am I really the only one to have issues with those?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Grogbart said:


> He might not be entirely to blame, or he isn't the only or major cause, so far I could agree.
> But I think he did his fair share in all the annoyance Sister-fans had to endure from GW.
> His Sister fluff in the GK Codex for instance. What did it tell me?
> - GKs aren't fit for the job they were made for, fighting demons
> ...


It's a white dwarf codex. Don't expect any major victories in it or for it to be written well. Also Ward now gave us a special character who isn't dead.

Also with we want to take this whole blood protection thing seriously, here is what should have happened: "Grey knights order an exterminatus on the planet" but that would have been a boring story. Either way the sisters were going to die.

Enough with the Ward hate, lets move on and be productive with our time.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> It's a white dwarf codex. Don't expect any major victories in it or for it to be written well.


Well excuse me, for trying to clear up someone else's misconception and my inability to show, not everybody is perfectly fine with things as they are, without letting slip I'm not!



Necrosis said:


> Also Ward now gave us a special character who isn't dead.


Congratulations, if that alone let you forget all other problems, you're way more easily pleased than me.



Necrosis said:


> Also with we want to take this whole blood protection thing seriously, here is what should have happened: "Grey knights order an exterminatus on the planet" but that would have been a boring story. Either way the sisters were going to die.


And that disproves, saying it was pointless, how?



Necrosis said:


> Enough with the Ward hate, lets move on and be productive with our time.


Isn't that contradicting itself?
I mean, what is there to be productive about, if I'm perfectly fine with everything GW does?

And besides, last time I tried to be productive, I was actually annoying people in the Homebrew Section.:wink:



PS:Truth be told I'm still a bit pissed off (and glad I didn't send a reply with the mood I was in yesterday!!!).
How should I have stated I differ with TheKingElessar's opinion, in order not receive such "stop complaining"-orders and being accused of Ward-hatred?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Maybe phrased it in a way other than "Matt's a b*stard"? :wink:

To be honest, I haven't read the GK fluff. I haven't read what they put in WD in detail. The background for my army was written back in 1997, and the changes made since haven't affected it. If the GK used Sisters blood because they were pure, surely that's a compliment? And it's long *long* standing fluff that GK do *whatever* it takes to stop daemons. I'll borrow the book and see what all the fuss is about. 

Having reread the blurbs from WD, there is nothing in there to substanciate the "Ward wrote this bit, Cruddace wrote that" statements.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Personally, I thought the Sisters' blood thing was silly, but not offensive. I've been around long enough to see GW fluff be all kinds of ludicrous.

I think people in this thread could benefit from reading this article.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Why don't you do this.... USE THE GREY KNIGHTS CODEX! with sisters models.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Oooh... Converting sisters in the equivalent of terminator armour...

No! Bad Tabby! *slap paw* Finish the project you're already on! :ireful2:


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

SilverTabby said:


> Maybe phrased it in a way other than "Matt's a b*stard"? :wink:


Dear SilverTabby, if I did inadvertently write my post to convey such a message, would you be so kind to enlighten me, where exactly you did extract if from and what I might do to phrase my opinion in a way to avoid such misunderstandings?

This is no "Prove it!"-kind of challenge, but me genuinely asking for help, cause this isn't the first time I noticed, other people pulling messages out of my written English, which I'm just not able relate to in my text.
I'm perfectly willing to accept it could be my fault, but I need to know the errors I make in order to avoid them. You'll have probably noticed English is a foreign language to me and even in my native language I'm no master of words.

So help me please, I'm getting tired of having to apologise for things, I didn't even realise I've said, all the time!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Grogbart - if it's any consolation, your English is better than most people I know, and I'd probably say most on these boards too...


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Grogbart - if it's any consolation, your English is better than most people I know, and I'd probably say most on these boards too...


I agree. Your text is very easily understood, clear, concise, and correct. Mine aint so good.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Stupid internet and lack of conveying messages properly. *shakes fist at phone*

Dear Grogbart, I wasn't entirely serious with that comment, hence the "winking face" after it. It's just that I know Matt quite well, and when every post I read that mentions his name is also saying he's a crap writer, or his books are shit, I tend to get irate. And people talk down his work, even the stuff that they profess to like, a lot. He's the writer everyone seems to love to hate, and it gets old very quickly. 

Given English isn't your first language, you write much better than a lot of english-speakers on here. :biggrin: Keep up the good work of making us natives look bad at our own language :wink:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It pisses me off, and I've never met the guy. :laugh: But that's because I think he's the best Codex writer in the Studio.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I hate to be so rough on a guy I've never even met. It does seem pretty unfair.

However, the SoB fluff reads like "Sisters get attacked by so and so then get slaughtered. Sisters attack planet X and get slaughtered but one survives to bring back a silver chalice of stuff. Sisters are saved on planet Z by some space marines but end up getting slaughtered anyways". Then there's the half done army list. All that by it's self isn't so bad...

But then you look at Ward's other books like GK and BA, the fluff is like "GKs get attacked by so and so and the GKs completely destroy them. One lone GK get's lost on planet X and manages to single handedly kick every baddies arse. GK kill SoB and bathe in their blood because they can finish any job those crappy Sisters can't do." Then they go ahead and write the most powerful, complete and huge Codex for both armies with a slew of new models... I am left thinking, wtf?

So yeah Matt Ward may not be at fault here and his writing may not be bad, but if SoB can't even get model updates or full codex could they at least not look like the Imperium's red headed step child in the fluff also?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I think he's possibly just trying to lower the baseline expectation. I mean, some people look at them in their Power Armour (ahem) and expect them to be teh aw3som3z or whatever, when in reality they're closer to the Guard in how they go about their business - they simply aren't superhumans like the Marines, they require application of large, disciplined forces. If his/their intent was to drive a wedge between them and Marines in the minds of the players, then good.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

So, this afternoon I read the 'offending' chapter in the GKs codex. 

I see no problem with it whatsoever. In some ways, it's an underhanded compliment to the purity of the SoB. And don't forget, GKs are *not good guys*. They do whatever it takes to stop the daemon. They are not nice. Hell, none of the Space Marines are. The Imperium may be the focus of 40k, but they aren't the good guys. 

So, some sisters came in contact with the Bloodtide and weren't corrupted. Proves their devotion to the Emperor is absolute, so they won't mind dying in the fulfillment of His work, carried out by the GKs hands. Also, I fully agree with the above statements about sisters being guardsmen inslightly better armour with a slightly better aim. The Guard are thrown at everything in huge numbers because they die in their millions. The sisters are not much better, and there's fewer of them. Of course they need backup, and most of what they face that isn't rogue guardsmen will overwhelm them...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I think that's a large part of why the minimum size for Battle Sisters is now ten.

That said, I hate that fact, as I don't think a unit should have the option for a Transport they cannot legally begin the game inside.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> I think that's a large part of why the minimum size for Battle Sisters is now ten.
> 
> That said, I hate that fact, as I don't think a unit should have the option for a Transport they cannot legally begin the game inside.


It always been ten.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It has? Well, as I already said, the entry cost of metal armies (and I hate metal models, always have) meant I never even seriously contemplated Sisters as an army.

Either way - the Immolator shouldn't be an option if they can't embark at Deployment.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> It has? Well, as I already said, the entry cost of metal armies (and I hate metal models, always have) meant I never even seriously contemplated Sisters as an army.
> 
> Either way - the Immolator shouldn't be an option if they can't embark at Deployment.


You can blame the Chaos Codex for that!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah it's always been ten, except in the past Troop SoB couldn't take an Immolator as a dedicated transport which they can now. What really bothered me was the change in taking away the Immolator's firing points. It may have been to bring it in line with similar tanks but as others in this thread have pointed out, it isn't a Razorback, so why change it? 

I'll concede you make a point about their fluff. They are not the super humans who are collectively known as Space Marines. However, GW really are not doing themselves a favor by portraying them as so vulnerable and weak, needing their big brothers to come bail them out all the time. Anyone who plays them knows a skilled player can wipe the floor with some Marines. 

I still say, with positive and supporting fluff, new great infantry models like DE and Necrons and a full Codex they could be very successful. All they really need are 1 box of Sisters since with different guns they could be almost any unit in the Codex. Just 1 box! All we need...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Yeah it's always been ten, except in the past Troop SoB couldn't take an Immolator as a dedicated transport which they can now. What really bothered me was the change in taking away the Immolator's firing points. It may have been to bring it in line with similar tanks but as others in this thread have pointed out, it isn't a Razorback, so why change it?


It strikes me as they were considering changing the minimum size to 5 but forgot to make sure the Immolator wasn't an option when they decided against it. 

I personally don't mind the minimum 10 thing (again, separating us from Marines rather than mimicking them), but I think something should have been done to make the 11-20 model sized squad model actually useful. I'd say for every 5 models in the squad you'd be able to take a special weapon and for every 10 one of those specials could be a heavy instead. But that's just me being silly again and thinking of ways things could suck less. 



Arcane said:


> I'll concede you make a point about their fluff. They are not the super humans who are collectively known as Space Marines. However, GW really are not doing themselves a favor by portraying them as so vulnerable and weak, needing their big brothers to come bail them out all the time. Anyone who plays them knows a skilled player can wipe the floor with some Marines.


I do like showing Marine players that my army can (and often does) smack theirs about, even at levels I'm supposed to be bad at. The Sisters really do need to get some legitimate fluff that shows that they actually DO something in the universe and are more than Diet Marines or Uber-Guardsmen.



Arcane said:


> I still say, with positive and supporting fluff, new great infantry models like DE and Necrons and a full Codex they could be very successful. All they really need are 1 box of Sisters since with different guns they could be almost any unit in the Codex. Just 1 box! All we need...


Box of 10 Sisters with guns unattached to the bodies like the old Cadians so you can plug and play your models? It'd likely be Finecast but it'd be easier to work with and be cheaper collectively to build units that it is now.

Then again the lack of models could be them not realizing the demand (since the people in charge seem to be blind to these kind of sites) or there may be plans to update the range and book that are in the works that we haven't heard about since they'd likely still be in the development stage at this point and not ready for casting or printing yet (which is when we tend to hear about things).

But that's just me trying to see GW's point of view purely by assumption.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> It strikes me as they were considering changing the minimum size to 5 but forgot to make sure the Immolator wasn't an option when they decided against it.
> 
> I personally don't mind the minimum 10 thing (again, separating us from Marines rather than mimicking them), but I think something should have been done to make the 11-20 model sized squad model actually useful. I'd say for every 5 models in the squad you'd be able to take a special weapon and for every 10 one of those specials could be a heavy instead. But that's just me being silly again and thinking of ways things could suck less.


This would be great, make sense and give them more flexibility and options... but I guess such an idea would take too much ink to print for the WD dex because the GK does this similarly. 



Zion said:


> I do like showing Marine players that my army can (and often does) smack theirs about, even at levels I'm supposed to be bad at. The Sisters really do need to get some legitimate fluff that shows that they actually DO something in the universe and are more than Diet Marines or Uber-Guardsmen.
> 
> Box of 10 Sisters with guns unattached to the bodies like the old Cadians so you can plug and play your models? It'd likely be Finecast but it'd be easier to work with and be cheaper collectively to build units that it is now.


Yes! Essentially just a box of torso, legs, guns and heads. Little fleur de lis to attach on the helmet for Celestians. Box should come with bolters, 2 flamers and meltas, then a heavy bolter and a multi melta. I would buy half a dozen right away. 



Zion said:


> Then again the lack of models could be them not realizing the demand (since the people in charge seem to be blind to these kind of sites) or there may be plans to update the range and book that are in the works that we haven't heard about since they'd likely still be in the development stage at this point and not ready for casting or printing yet (which is when we tend to hear about things).


I think the fluff for the Emperor and Golden Throne was actually inspired by GW's business model. We know they are always there, most of the time though they seem to be dead. Then once in a great while a miracle happens.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

They are going to try to do things efficiently. It will be plastic troops and matching units based on what they are making for other codices. If they don't have the plastic models ready to be sold then they are not going to do the codex different. They also need to fill in more for other units etc. to make the full codex = even more models they need to get ready. If they had issues, which presumably they did, then this whole thing falls apart and they put the resources (people) on other projects which will pay off sooner/easier.

Plus they had 6th Ed. in there, all the new LotRO stuff coming out for the new movie, so it comes down to them doing the best they can at the moment. I must be in a gracoius mood at the momnt.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

Seems GW found a free minute and finally changed our Forgeworld section from Witch Hunters to Sisters of Battle.k:

Yet they somehow decided Sisters are no longer worthy of Purity Seals!
I know that's not the most serious of issues and I apologise for nitpicking. But it's just one of those little stings that just add up to MY subjective feeling of GW not caring for Sisters or worse.
And before misunderstanding arise once again, I'm not telling anyone to hate GW, I'm just stating how I feel about it!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Grogbart said:


> Seems GW found a free minute and finally changed our Forgeworld section from Witch Hunters to Sisters of Battle.k:


Now if only they could take 5 more minutes out of their busy schedules and give Repressors Shield of Faith in the PDF download that would be great.

And don't you know, according to the GK Codex, Sister's ARE purity seals!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Just to point out - GW isn't really directly responsible for anything on the FW website. Blame the FW team for their tardiness...


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Correction, the main GW webteam aren't responsible for FWs website. FW are still part of GW...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Tabby, I said for the website, not for FW itself...:dunno:


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

No one at GW seems responsible for what any other team does. Their left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

If FW doesn't update the site and FW is owned by GW, even the bottom of the website is all covered with credits to GW, then who's to blame? I bet it all comes down to Carl the mail guy who didn't deliver that envelope last year. Someone really needs to tell Carl to get his butt in gear.

But chances of a PDF update seem grim seeing as how the Codex hasn't even been released via PDF yet.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Maybe they are saving up for after 6th ed.

Unless they add a model/unit of some kind what would be the point? Other than having an electronic copy?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I think it's as Tabby said - they don't expect anyone to start Sisters, and aren't bothered about making it easier to do.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Probably. The issue now is if you want to play "new" sisters it can be hard to get the two WD containing the codex since they are no longer in print, even for old WH players who want the current rules. Of course you can find a copy illegaly online but many tournies may frown on that, especially GW ones. It just seems silly they wouldn't take the time to release the PDF since it robably already exists in the form they send to the printer. It only takes adding a few lines of text in an HTML entry to do so.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It's possible they deleted it.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Wouldn't be surprised lol. So what is GW's stance on OOP Dex/WD or Heresy's stance on sharing such things?


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Why did they even bother updating it then? A FAQ like the BT/DA one would've been better


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

IDK why they did it. It was printed in the August and September White Dwarf magazine in 2011 and are complete rewrites and different from the old 4th edition codex. Problem is you can't buy them most anywhere and GW never released a PDF version.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

redmapa said:


> Why did they even bother updating it then? A FAQ like the BT/DA one would've been better


Maybe they were afraid that since the codex was digital that no one would notice if they changed it? They did dedicate space from two different White Dwarfs that could have been used to sell Necrons or Marines to make sure that people knew they were getting updated.

I chalk it up to GW not being sure how to interact with it's fanbase at times, and wanting to appease us while making sure that the Sister's old stat lines and rules that they used to share with Grey Knights got updated. I'm sure this also bumped sales in White Dwarf with how fast they sold out, as well as likely drove up Sisters sales at least a little (I know I spent about a grand on my army so far, most of this direct order from GW) so it may have validated there is still a market out there for them.

Of course this is just more supposition on my part, but I think it makes some sense.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I think getting extra sales for White Dwarf would have been a factor, certainly. I wouldn't claim to know HOW BIG a factor, but certainly a consideration.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Anyone with the white dwarf codex hate the fact that its over two issues. I ripped all my pages out, scanned them in and reprinted them in a nice codex with a cover and all.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

asianavatar said:


> Anyone with the white dwarf codex hate the fact that its over two issues. I ripped all my pages out, scanned them in and reprinted them in a nice codex with a cover and all.


I cut the pages out and put them into document protectors inside of a binder. But yes, some kind of removable or separate inclusion to the magazine would have been awesome.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Given all the rumours about 6th and how every list is likely to need some kind of online update, release of a PDF version will likely not happen til 6ths release. A WD codex is fine for 8ish months, and release it online afterwards. 

If of course that's what they're doing. *shrugs*


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think they put the SOB codex in WD so that they could crank up the price of their OOP metal figures and make a buck on them. This profit would then fund the finecast version replacements.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

jaysen said:


> I think they put the SOB codex in WD so that they could crank up the price of their OOP metal figures and make a buck on them. This profit would then fund the finecast version replacements.


Nice theory if that happened, but I was buying models for Sisters BEFORE the White Dwarf update and the prices haven't changed.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> Given all the rumours about 6th and how every list is likely to need some kind of online update, release of a PDF version will likely not happen til 6ths release. A WD codex is fine for 8ish months, and release it online afterwards.
> 
> If of course that's what they're doing. *shrugs*


That is a sound theory. 

Couldn't you like, bust in on them in the office at GW and show them all the threads of us rabid SoB fans chomping at the bit for something new? lol


And what's with everyone saying the models are OOP? I think there's only 1 model that's actually OOP, the sister holding up the large =I= icon. Other than that they are all still available. For some reason this rumor seems to be causing Ebay prices for Sisters to sell for retail or more on *used* models! Crazy considering GW offers free shipping on most orders. I guess people really hate gluing together models.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Arcane said:


> That is a sound theory.
> 
> Couldn't you like, bust in on them in the office at GW and show them all the threads of us rabid SoB fans chomping at the bit for something new? lol
> 
> ...


Who is to lazy to glue sister of battles? Honestly let me sum it up in 2 steps:
1: Glue the backpack to the model
2: Glue the model to the base
Finished!


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Arcane said:


> And what's with everyone saying the models are OOP? I think there's only 1 model that's actually OOP, the sister holding up the large =I= icon. Other than that they are all still available. For some reason this rumor seems to be causing Ebay prices for Sisters to sell for retail or more on *used* models! Crazy considering GW offers free shipping on most orders. I guess people really hate gluing together models.


I remember talking to my friend about this last month. I told him I regretted not picking up the armies I saw on sale right after the WDex release. 

I've toyed with the idea of buying the models from GW online, but I keep hoping that the prices will drop to more reasonable levels.


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## Grogbart (Aug 29, 2010)

Arcane said:


> And what's with everyone saying the models are OOP? I think there's only 1 model that's actually OOP, the sister holding up the large =I= icon. Other than that they are all still available.


There is also the model of a helmet-less sister holding a banner pole (without banner).
And wasn't it an ecclesiarchal 'I' rather than a inquisitorial one on the model you mentioned?
Sorry, no time searching for pictures right now.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Damn, guess I'm a heretic, I didn't know there was an ecclesiarch I. I thought they were always the inquisition I.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Some of the adepts use the I as a symbol, the only difference is the symbol in the middle of the I.

Adeptus Telepathica has an eye for example


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> Damn, guess I'm a heretic, I didn't know there was an ecclesiarch I. I thought they were always the inquisition I.


The "I" is also how the Emperor signed things (supposedly according to an Arbite novel I ran across). It's my understanding that all "Imperium" based organizations (Navigators, Ecclesiarch, Inquisition) all have their own variant of the "I".


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

Zion said:


> The "I" is also how the Emperor signed things (supposedly according to an Arbite novel I ran across). It's my understanding that all "Imperium" based organizations (Navigators, Ecclesiarch, Inquisition) all have their own variant of the "I".


It probably stands for Imperator to go along with the rest of the faux Latin that makes up Gothic (i.e. Imperial speak). The Sisters often say 'Ave Imperator' in their novels. (what few that exist anyway).


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

The Emperor is/was more accurately called 'Impirator' - i.e. Latin/High Gothic for 'Emperor.

Most of the Imperiumn's adeptae use an 'I' as their symbol, in each case superimposed with something else.

An I on it's own, unadorned stands for the Emperor Himself.

The Inquisition's I has three crossbars in the middle.









The Ecclesiarchy has a skull and starburst on it:









The Adeptus Arbites has the scales of justice on it:









There are others besides like the:

Adeptus Telepathica









Administratum










Note that the Inquisition =][= appears nowhere on any Sisters of Battlee model, save for the Exorcist. That's because, apart from the Exorcist, all Sisters models were created long before anyone thought to shackle them to the Inquisition.

The Sisters bare the Ecclesiarchy's skull-and-starburst I, and on their spaulders, the bare I of the Emperor Himself, superimposed over the wings of an eagle.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Azezel said:


> (One rather awersome post of awesome with pictures, removed for length)



Very nice bit of connect the dots there. I knew some of this but didn't have the full picture. Thanks!


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Hmmm, Arcoflagellants, Crusaders, Sister Dialogous have the inquisition I right? I'll have to go look at my penitent engines, but the one on GW website at least has it painted on.

I guess they were all considered acolytes though in the WH codex.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Azazel, what's with Draigo having a large Ecclesiarchy I above his banner? >.>


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Azazel, what's with Draigo having a large Ecclesiarchy I above his banner? >.>


Maybe he stole it?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe it's a Holy Relic that gives him the strength of ten Tigers?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe he's really a woman!


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