# Corax's argument with Horus and follow up Q



## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

I've read that sometime during the great crusade Corax and Horus almost came to blows over a disagreement of some sort but i haven't found what the argument was actually about or when it took place. Can anyone fill me in?

Also after the argument he left Horus' command. I realize the the raven guard are well known to operate by themselves without orders from even the RG higher ups but during the Great Crusade it seems strange that this would be acceptable. Did he just start doing his own thing, under no ones command? That seems like something the Emp and/or horus would not be into as a decent chunk of the most powerful warriors ever were off their chain.

Or did he transfer to someone else's command? Was there even anyone else who outranked him with the Emp being on terra?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

I think it was to do with how he operated and the style of his command that set Corax into the argument with Horus. CotE or the Baron might know more about where, when and what followed.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

High_Seraph said:


> I think it was to do with how he operated and the style of his command that set Corax into the argument with Horus. CotE or the Baron might know more about where, when and what followed.


There may actually not be an answer the the first question based on research... i've look EVERYWHERE.

My guess would be that it would be horus moving to fast in the conquest of planets rather than actually establishing proper rule over conquered worlds like corax wanted to do on his home world. 

The second question should have an answer though.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Think this only came up during the Index Astartes article. I don't think Corax ever really likeed Horus, in the article it says "Corax did not like the more gregarious Horus, finding him overly boastful and manipulative." 

It then goes on to say they nearly came to blows and bloodshed was only averted when Corax took his legion away from Horus's command and he never saw him again.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Anybody? I am more interested in the 2nd question as i'm pretty sure the first has not been answered in any official form.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Corax took his legion away from the direct command of Horus. The two did not see eye to eye on things, and Corax refused to let Horus command a legion that was not his to command (as warmaster Horus could direct legions to where they might be needed, but the manner in which those legions operated would still fall to their respective primarchs.)


Corax in no way went rogue or operated beyond the command of others. He just would not let any outsiders order members of his legion around and keep them from fighting in the fashion that they did.


At least, thats my take on it.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Corax took his legion away from the direct command of Horus. The two did not see eye to eye on things, and Corax refused to let Horus command a legion that was not his to command (as warmaster Horus could direct legions to where they might be needed, but the manner in which those legions operated would still fall to their respective primarchs.)
> 
> 
> Corax in no way went rogue or operated beyond the command of others. He just would not let any outsiders order members of his legion around and keep them from fighting in the fashion that they did.
> ...


There had to be some kind of overall plan for the great crusade though. If every primarch could just take on any mission they desired then their would be no direction.

The whole point of having Horus as warmaster was to have a "brain" controlling the GC while the Emp was on Terra. He was well known for pitting legions against each other to increase their overall inefficiency so i question how much control the other primarch had as well. They seemed to follow his orders fairly closely. 

And before the argument Corax was Horus' main tactical adviser (before the discovery of Alpharious anyway) so i find it suspect that Horus was ordering the RG around in a manner that Corax opposed. 

Once Corax left the RG still had to be a piece on the chessboard and needed direction. I can't see them being as effective as an individual force.

Maybe you could explain your though a bit deeper? i may just be misinterpreting it.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Corax is a Primarch. He doesn't need to be under the command of anyone else.

However, Horus mentored several other Primarchs when they were found and began to lead their legions, such as Fulgrim and the EC who were too small a legion, and Alpharius, for whatever reason. Remember also that because he was the last one to be found at such a late time, he never traveled to Terra and met the Emperor.

Also, the legions worked together many, many times, as the EC and the IH during the conflict against the Diaspora. the IH, DG and the Salamanders during the events of the Promethean Sun. The Word Bearers and the Luna Wolves during the Davin campaign. The Word Bearers, Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons during the Shrike Campaign.

So it is ok for Corax to defer to Horus since Horus is the "First" Primarch anyways.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax didn't just disappear, he probably went to another fleet and started doing his own thing. Remember they where a legion at this time, they where more than capable of taking a planet or even a system by themselves. They probably had normal army units with them when they left or as I said took control of one.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> Corax is a Primarch. He doesn't need to be under the command of anyone else.





Words_of_Truth said:


> Corax didn't just disappear, he probably went to another fleet and started doing his own thing. Remember they where a legion at this time, they where more than capable of taking a planet or even a system by themselves. They probably had normal army units with them when they left or as I said took control of one.


I don't see how that would work. The Emp made Horus Warmaster and put him in charge of the GC. Therefore he made the decisions on where to go and who to attack (with advisement). 

If any primarch could just leave his command and go off and "do his own thing" that throws the entire chain of command out the window.

Say Horus ordered the Space Wolves and the Word Bearers to attacks planets A, B and C.

Upon arrival to planet A they find that it has already been concurred by the Raven Guard. Oh well they wasted a week or so traveling for no reason. They fly off to planet B... same thing. More wasted time with no results. Then they get to planet C Which the raven guard have currently infiltrated and started dismantling the enemy HQ. Now the SW have missed 2 battles so they are chomping at the bit for some action and they rush in, ruining all the Raven guards nicely laid plans. Many Raven Guard are killed.

It wouldn't work in anyone's favor if there was not a unified plan in place for the GC and that couldn't happen without some form of a chain of command. Having a 18 legions all working by themselves would just turn into a jumbled mess of confusion and knowing the pride of most of the primarchs a point of major tension.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

This could of been before he was made Warmaster, pretty sure it would of come up in the heresy books if it had happened after he was made Warmaster since to me at least there was very little time difference. 

Horus probably just let him go and kept tabs on him to make sure he was doing it right. Brothers do fall out it's just in this case it was two of the greatest individuals in the Imperium, Horus soon got a replacement in the form of Alpharius though


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I imagine that the Warmaster-Primarch relationship would commonly go like:

Horus: Russ I need you to take planet X in Y days with Fleet abc before moving to sector Z and asssiting me there.
Russ: Sure thing boss.
Russ proceeds to take move Fleet abc to planet X and take it in Y-2 days. The fleet goes to sector Z and Horus congratulates him before taking command and leading a combined force.

Whereas the new Warmaster-Corax relationship would be more like:
Horus: Corax I need you to take planet X in Y days with Fleet abc before moving to sector Z and asssiting me there.
Corax: Yeah, whatever.
Corax then proceeds to send Fleet abc directly to sector Z, and begins infiltrating without Luna Wolf assistance, while fleet 123 infiltrates planet X. Y+4 days latter planet X is in Imperial hands. Horus arrives in sector Z, is contacted by Fleet abc who inform him that RG operations are underway. Horus is p'oed but takes the planet anyway.

So basically Corax is still following the Warmasters general instructions but acheiving them in his own way. It's not really directly undermining Horus' authority so he lets it slide, especially given that he may already be developing plans to destroy them.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It does say Corax didn't like Horus's boasting and manipulation, which could point towards Horus taking praise for Corax's accomplishments simply because he gave the first order.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> So basically Corax is still following the Warmasters general instructions but acheiving them in his own way. It's not really directly undermining Horus' authority so he lets it slide, especially given that he may already be developing plans to destroy them.


The only problem with that is it specifically says they never speak after the argument and the Raven Guard and Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus don't meet up again until Istvann. Where ever Corax went he got pretty far away from Horus.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe he went to work with Sanguinius or Dorn, there are other Primarchs that imo while not officially ranked higher, are considered worthy of leading other Primarchs. I mean even Vulkan via his personality ended up "commanding" Mortarion and Ferrus in Promethean Sun.

Just reading the RG IA article now and it says - "Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested their aid many times in his campaigns and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high."


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Maybe he went to work with Sanguinius or Dorn, there are other Primarchs that imo while not officially ranked higher, are considered worthy of leading other Primarchs. I mean even Vulkan via his personality ended up "commanding" Mortarion and Ferrus in Promethean Sun.


It would be strange for him to work with either of those legions, as he had to stay closer to Istvann than them.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not always, the Crusade happened over a period of time he could of been any where.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

Klaivex, you appear to have assumed that Corax was under Horus's direct command after Horus became Warmaster. I have seen no information to back this up anywhere. It seems much more likely to me that at some stage earlier in the Great Crusade, the RG were attached to a battle group (of 2 or more) legions under the overall command of Horus. There are plenty of instances of various Primarchs being given strategic command of a specific campaign. In fact it makes perfect sense, you wouldn't want there to be multiple supreme commanders over the same theatre of war. Perhaps the most relevant example I can think of is the loyalist attack at the drop site massacre - overall strategic command given to Ferrus even though 3 legions were involved.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

In the IA article it does refer to Horus as the Warmaster when this happens, so it appears to have happened after the Emperor went back home apparently.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

But since in Horus Rising, Loken utters the title Warmaster for the first time in war at 63-19, and since no Raven Guard are mentioned, this has to have been before. Ergo, it has been retconned as regards to the timeline.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

It doesn't really matter if he was warmaster or not. Horus was in command of the great crusade every time the Emperor left to meet a new son which happened at least 18 times (not counting Alpharius because he never met the Emp). So even if he wasn't warmaster he was still acting commander.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Horus was in command of the great crusade every time the Emperor left to meet a new son which happened at least 18 times


That's not strictly true at all, and has no lore to back it up. The Emperor was directly in command of the Great Crusade up until Ullanor (he didn't remove himself from overall command when a Primarch was discovered, why would he have?) - Obviously he couldn't have been everywhere at once however so other lords, generals and commanders reigned in different campaigns and theatres of war. In regards to Horus and Corax's disagreement, as someone above said it was not uncommon for a single Primarch to be in overall command of a campaign even when it involved other Primarchs and Legions. The IA tells us that at some point during the Great Crusade Corax found himself under Horus' command and removed his Legion from Horus' command due to their disagreement, theres not much more to it than that.

It seems logical that this occured before Ullanor, despite the IA article refering to Horus as _Warmaster_ (the title which he held post-Ullanor) at the time. You can put it down to the Heresy series updating and expanding on previous lore.



Klaivex said:


> (not counting Alpharius because he never met the Emp).


Ergh... Alpharius did actually meet the Emperor.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That's not strictly true at all, and has no lore to back it up. The Emperor was directly in command of the Great Crusade up until Ullanor (he didn't remove himself from overall command when a Primarch was discovered, why would he have?) - Obviously he couldn't have been everywhere at once however so other lords, generals and commanders reigned in different campaigns and theatres of war. In regards to Horus and Corax's disagreement, as someone above said it was not uncommon for a single Primarch to be in overall command of a campaign even when it involved other Primarchs and Legions. The IA tells us that at some point during the Great Crusade Corax found himself under Horus' command and removed his Legion from Horus' command due to their disagreement, theres not much more to it than that.
> 
> It seems logical that this occured before Ullanor, despite the IA article refering to Horus as _Warmaster_ (the title which he held post-Ullanor) at the time. You can put it down to the Heresy series updating and expanding on previous lore.
> 
> ...


He would have had to left front line command whenever he left to meet a new primarch. After having spent 30 some years with horus and forming a bond of trust and respect it would make perfect sense for him to be left in charge.

And i realize that different primarchs took charge for different campaigns but there was an overall plan that united all the different campaigns. The Emperor of course set up the original master plan but Horus enacted his will while the emperor was away and took over it when the emperor left for terra.

Perhaps my mistake was thinking that he removed himself from horus' command of one particular campaign and not as in removing himself from the overall plan of the GC which was under horus' command upon becoming warmaster.

And i meant Alpharius did not meet the Emp upon his founding like the other primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> He would have had to left front line command whenever he left to meet a new primarch.


The point is that there wasn't only one front line during the Great Crusade...

The Emperor was in overall command, but he did not directly command every campaign. Ultimately there were likely thousands (if not more) of individuals who maintained frontline command throughout the Great Crusade (even when the Emperor was in overall command), ranging from minor Imperial Army commanders through to the Primarchs and Emperor. The Emperor did not abandon overall command of the Crusade every time a Primarch was discovered, that would have been a logistical nightmare. Horus inherited overall command as the _Warmaster_ following the Ullanor campaign when the Emperor returned to Terra.



Klaivex said:


> And i realize that different primarchs took charge for different campaigns but there was an overall plan that united all the different campaigns. The Emperor of course set up the original master plan but Horus enacted his will while the emperor was away and took over it when the emperor left for terra.


You don't seem to be grasping the sheer concept of the Great Crusade. In a mere two hundred years Imperial forces conquered vast swathes of the galaxy, reuniting the vast majority of all human controlled systems. There wasn't one rampaging army under the command of the Emperor that went from system to system marauding and conquering, which then passed into the command of Horus when the Emperor needed to be elsewhere. The Great Crusade was seperated into hundreds and hundreds of expeditionary fleets, hundreds of thousands of garrison/PDF-equivalent forces and other military ventures. Overall command went to the Emperor, but essentially the hundreds of fleets and other military ventures were semi-autonomous under different commanders. My point is that the Emperor did not directly command the entire Great Crusade, he would have likely only directly commanded a single fleet/crusade/venture (out of thousands). Just because he/his fleet was required to welcome a newly discovered Primarch into the Imperial fold doesn't mean overall command had to pass to Horus, it would have been pointless. The Emperor could have still indirectly commanded the Great Crusade from his venture to discover one of his sons, just as he did when he crusading separately with his own fleet.



Klaivex said:


> but there was an overall plan that united all the different campaigns.


The overall plan was to reunite the distant colonies and strands of humanity under the rule of Terra. The thousands of seperate campaigns were fought at the discretion of the individual commanders.



Klaivex said:


> Perhaps my mistake was thinking that he removed himself from horus' command of one particular campaign and not as in removing himself from the overall plan of the GC which was under horus' command upon becoming warmaster.


Thats sounds like the misunderstanding yeah.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Corax was one of the few Primarchs who actually was pretty normal as far as I'm concerned. He only fell apart after creating mutated sons and then having to euthanize them en masse. This would effect any patriarch and he felt that he had failed his legion sons. Sadly him taking a ship alone into the eye of terror 10,000 years ago would lead me to believe with his mental state of a man wanting absolution some greater daemon gave it to him. Unlike Russ or Khan who rolled deep when the disappeared going on your own is pretty much suicide into that realm.


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## Marshall Gabriel (Sep 17, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You don't seem to be grasping the sheer concept of the Great Crusade. In a mere two hundred years Imperial forces conquered vast swathes of the galaxy, reuniting the vast majority of all human controlled systems. There wasn't one rampaging army under the command of the Emperor that went from system to system marauding and conquering, which then passed into the command of Horus when the Emperor needed to be elsewhere. The Great Crusade was seperated into hundreds and hundreds of expeditionary fleets, hundreds of thousands of garrison/PDF-equivalent forces and other military ventures. Overall command went to the Emperor, but essentially the hundreds of fleets and other military ventures were semi-autonomous under different commanders. My point is that the Emperor did not directly command the entire Great Crusade, he would have likely only directly commanded a single fleet/crusade/venture (out of thousands). Just because he/his fleet was required to welcome a newly discovered Primarch into the Imperial fold doesn't mean overall command had to pass to Horus, it would have been pointless. The Emperor could have still indirectly commanded the Great Crusade from his venture to discover one of his sons, just as he did when he crusading separately with his own fleet.
> 
> The overall plan was to reunite the distant colonies and strands of humanity under the rule of Terra. The thousands of seperate campaigns were fought at the discretion of the individual commanders.
> 
> Thats sounds like the misunderstanding yeah.





Horus Rising..Page 46.

4,287 Primary Expedition Fleets
60,000 odd Secondary Deployment Groups
372 Primary Expeditions in Regroup/Refit/Resupplying

This is about a year after Horus was made Warmaster at Ullanor.

So..yeah. Some Fleets were as small as 18 ships (the 140th was a Blood Angels Fleet at Murder.) Some may have been smaller, but not sure. Others much larger..probably the largest is the 63rd. No idea how many boats that fleet has though.


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## Marcoos (Sep 26, 2010)

It is incorrect to say Horus was in charge of the great crusade whenever the Emperor left it. The appointment of Horus to Warmaster was a massive step, as is heavily commented on throughout the HH series, because for the first time the Emperor had 'abandoned' the great crusade to another person in order to go and do something else. 

Up until this point I would bet a lot of money that Horus had commanded many sub-theatres, with various other army units and legions under his local control, but the overall crusade direction was still under the Emperor. I am also sure various other Primarchs ran their own campaigns (the early Heresy books list the Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Death Guard at least as having their own campaigns). There are also instances of other multi-legion campaigns where one Primarch was over others - the one in Promethean Sun, the one in Lightening Tower/Dark King for example. I would also heavily bet that Horus was never a subordinate to another commander, other than the Emperor, because he was found first so is like the elder brother over the other Primarchs.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

*Reason why Horus and Corax Never met eye to eye.*

I think the true reason; though not the exact reason/ spark that finally made them hate each other, is found in _Raven's Flight._ I believe the Emperor used Horus as Warmaster because Horus had the closest vision of the Imperium as the Emperor did. 

In _Raven's Flight_ it states that Corax never truly saw eye to eye with the Emperor and his Imperium. He only followed it because it gave him a sense of purpose. 

I think when the Emperor finally made Horus Warmaster, Corax could just vent out his hate over what he thought about the Imperium because Horus was in charge of the last parts of the Great Crusade. However, expressing your discontent about the Emperor is heretical... But since Horus is in charge... well thats okay... as long as your another primarch.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

I view it like this, the Primarchs are all Generals. As far as I am aware (and this may have changed) the UK, Canada, Australia, Germany, France, and US all have top rank at 4 star Generals. The US will promote a 4 star to a 5 star (no pay increase or anything) for one reason and one reason only, so that we can take control of the war.

The other generals still have control of their armies but we ask them to go take care of certain objectives, they can feel free to say no. If the 5 star general deems it imperative enough he will order it to be done. The same goes for the Primarchs. Horus is the 5 star but he mostly would only have to ask his brothers to do what he wants as the Big E gave him authority to pull rank if need be. I really think that they would pretty much do what he wanted as it was for the betterment of humanity, except for the whole 'I went to the dark side cause the cookies were fucking AWESOME' thing.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I think the true reason; though not the exact reason/ spark that finally made them hate each other, is found in _Raven's Flight._ I believe the Emperor used Horus as Warmaster because Horus had the closest vision of the Imperium as the Emperor did.
> 
> In _Raven's Flight_ it states that Corax never truly saw eye to eye with the Emperor and his Imperium. He only followed it because it gave him a sense of purpose.
> 
> I think when the Emperor finally made Horus Warmaster, Corax could just vent out his hate over what he thought about the Imperium because Horus was in charge of the last parts of the Great Crusade. However, expressing your discontent about the Emperor is heretical... But since Horus is in charge... well thats okay... as long as your another primarch.


The Raven's Flight doesn't say anything like that... Corax has always been one of the most dedicated Primarchs. He even goes to Terra after the Dropsite Massacre to consult with the Emperor on how to rebuild his legion.

Horus was made Warmaster for the reason you mention, and also because he was the first Primarch to be found and thus had been with him the longest. The Emperor had a chance to 'mould' him much more than he did with others, all of whom were affected one way or another by their homeworlds. To the best of my knowledge, nothing irregular has ever been mentioned about Chthonia. It doesn't compare in any way to the worlds of the other Traitor Primarchs.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I think the true reason; though not the exact reason/ spark that finally made them hate each other, is found in _Raven's Flight._ I believe the Emperor used Horus as Warmaster because Horus had the closest vision of the Imperium as the Emperor did.
> 
> In _Raven's Flight_ it states that Corax never truly saw eye to eye with the Emperor and his Imperium. He only followed it because it gave him a sense of purpose.
> 
> I think when the Emperor finally made Horus Warmaster, Corax could just vent out his hate over what he thought about the Imperium because Horus was in charge of the last parts of the Great Crusade. However, expressing your discontent about the Emperor is heretical... But since Horus is in charge... well thats okay... as long as your another primarch.


The Raven's Flight doesn't say anything like that... Corax has always been one of the most dedicated Primarchs. He even goes to Terra after the Dropsite Massacre to consult with the Emperor on how to rebuild his legion.

Horus was made Warmaster for the reason you mention, and also because he was the first Primarch to be found and thus had been with him the longest. The Emperor had a chance to 'mould' him much more than he did with others, all of whom were affected one way or another by their homeworlds. To the best of my knowledge, nothing irregular has ever been mentioned about Chthonia. It doesn't compare in any way to the worlds of the other Traitor Primarchs.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> The Raven's Flight doesn't say anything like that...


"Corax had freed Deliverance from the slave masters and then guided them into the fold of the Imperium. Perhaps he had merely swapped one master for another..." *Freedom* 3:50-3:59


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He does say perhaps though, not that he never truly saw eye to eye with the Emperor, in a way he did swap masters, except one in which he was willing to fight for.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Or he could leave his world without the Imperium and get ran through by the eldar or orks. In that galaxy you need some kind of backing so it's idealist bullshit to think his planet would be able to operate independently indefintely. I think he was just musing in his head. I don't see that comment as a real conflict with the Imperiums plan. There's a huge different between slavery and working for a regime that is constantly assailed. From what I know most of the Primarchs homeworlds aren't really molested as much as the other imperial worlds. Look at Fenris, Ultramar, Chogoris, Medusa, The rock the DA float on, and Deliverance. While there are a few hives started and maybe some mining I don't think they entire planet is corrupted like some other worlds we've seen.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> "Corax had freed Deliverance from the slave masters and then guided them into the fold of the Imperium. Perhaps he had merely swapped one master for another..." *Freedom* 3:50-3:59


Should have quoted the whole thing. Corax chose to fight for the Emperor. If he is choosing to serve him then there is no "hate" or otherwise. It also doesn't say that he didn't see eye to eye with the Emperor over whatever decisions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I could go on to quote the whole thing. But I didn't think I had too. He states a few things. Firstly that the Emperor gave him purpose. Thats why he chose to fight for the Imperium. Is there really another alternative? Fight for or against the Emperor. Corax fought his whole life against the slave masters only to end up fighting for the Imperium and becoming a tyrant himself. 

And the word "hate" I'm afraid is your word. For me, I think Corax is one of those individuals that regrets what the Imperium became to be, but knew there was no other option. And yet still ponders upon what he was and what he had become. 

And you really don't need to quote the whole thing. You can see by just that one line, Corax had doubt about the Imperium and what he was fighting for.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Oh, well I'm sure in a fairy tale everybody get's unicorns and umpa lumpa butlers. I wish that we didn't have to fight wars and everyone got along in the middle east.That's an idealist wish. Pragmatically, the guy who created you shows up and says it's time to fufill your destiny, you go. Corax wouldn't exist without the Emperor. So they discuss for a day and night the terms and Corax agrees. I'm sure every primarch had their reservations about the imperial plan, some more than others (traitors). I don't think Corax once faced with the events of the Drop site massacre and would have doubts about what the Imperium stands for. Either you stand with Chaos or with the Imperium.Anything else is a horrible death at the hands of the tyranids,necron,orks,or dark eldar.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> Should have quoted the whole thing. Corax chose to fight for the Emperor. If he is choosing to serve him then there is no "hate" or otherwise. It also doesn't say that he didn't see eye to eye with the Emperor over whatever decisions.


Ckcrawford's good on this one, I fear. Arguably both Angron and Mortarion 'hated' the Emperor. Overwhelming resentment, certainly.

My conjecture on the topic: Corax's beef with Horus might've been that Horus was being far too commanding/domineering for a 'mere other primarch'. As far as Corax was concerned, Horus shouldn't be 'commanding' his brothers (then, at least), and that encouragement was sufficient to distance himself from Horus.

Having said all that, it's a bit of an extrapolation. All we can solidly take from the passage in _Raven's Flight_ is that Corax still felt uneasy about the idea of having masters. That's not 'hate', but similarly it's not not seeing 'eye to eye'. Rather: it give's Corax quite an implied learning curve throughout his years, albeit one that's never really touched on or explored aside from very slight mentions.

One of the upsides of _Outcast Dead_ is the (slight) expansion on Rogal Dorn's progress through the Heresy.

I desperately want to start seeing more Sigismund after watching Dogma this evening e.g.:
"I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the Throne."

I can see Sigismund saying that one day. Dorn 'goes a bit mad', but Sigismund, he's Astartes. Abaddon, Typhon and Erebus should've went after him, but they didn't, Dorn was always too close (maybe?), so Sigy couldn't be turned, but he's 'their kind', he knows the Astartes inherit the Imperium, but it doesn't affect his judgement.

Possibly. Perhaps not though. Hope it's done well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Xisor said:


> My conjecture on the topic: Corax's beef with Horus might've been that Horus was being far too commanding/domineering for a 'mere other primarch'. As far as Corax was concerned, Horus shouldn't be 'commanding' his brothers (then, at least), and that encouragement was sufficient to distance himself from Horus.


The wording in the IA article simply suggests that the "taciturn" Corax did not see eye-to-eye with the more "gregarious" Horus and viewed him as "overly boastful and manipulative." I don't think we can deter from this that Corax had an issue with Horus' authority in the particular campaign in question (or any other campaigns where both the Luna Wolves and Raven Guard joined forces, or in general for that matter). Horus was always seen as the _first Primarch_ after all, and always seemed to have an unofficial authority over the others (taking into account he trained most of them as well).

In regards to the Corax/Horus relationship, I think it was down to their conflicting characters and personalities, which peaked in the particular campaign in question which resulted in Corax removing himself and his Legion from the campaign to avoid bloodshed.


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