# 6th Edition Rumors (1st Post Updated 27 June 2012)



## Zion

Due to size restrictions I've restructured this post to catalog only what we know about 6th edition. I thank everyone who has helped contribute to this so far, but there just isn't room to do quote. Everything below is as it has been presented. Things may be different in the actual rulebook as some of these are based on rumors, others are based on poorly written (and thus hard to read) Reddit posts.

General
Premeasuring is now in.
Night Fighting can happen in any game (on a 4+) and if rolled will continue until the roll is failed at the start of a turn (Night Fighting limits weapon's max range to 36" with anything over 24" counting as "Shrouded" and getting a 2+ Cover Save. Any model over 12" away counts as having the Stealth USR).
Turn Order remains the same (Move->Shoot->Assault). No psychic phase.
Jet Packs give Relentless and 2D6" movement in the Assault Phase if not Assaulting.
Squad Leaders (Sister Superiors, Space Marine Sergeants, Eldar Exarchs, ect) count as Characters and can accept challenges and benefit from the "Look Out Sir!" rule on a 4+.
Area Terrain grants a +2 Cover Save(?)
Reserve Rolls changed: Turn 2 = 3+, Turn 3 = 2+, Turn 4 = Automatic
Random Game Lengths are still in.

USRs
Snap Fire - Fire weapons you wouldn't normally be able to fire at BS1 (heavy weapons, sponsons on a tank that has moved and fired it's main weapon....more information will be available on the exact details upon the release of the rulebook). Blast weapons may not snap fire.
Acute Senses - Reroll Outflank.
Night Vision - Ignore Night Fighting.
Stealth - No Change.
Rage - +2 Attacks on the charge, no movement penalties.
Fear - (Currently Daemons of Chaos only but that is pending FAQ) Same as Fantasy. Leadership test to avoid being WS1. Units that are Fearless or have "And They Shall Know No Fear" are immune.
Jink - Currently mentioned as a rule for Fast Skimmer and Jetbikes. Gives a 5+ Cover Save if the model moves at all, and a 4+ if it went flat out.
Fleet - Allows you to reroll the run roll or the charge roll during a turn. No longer allows you to run AND assault in the same turn (as that'd give a unit with this rule a 24" threat bubble under the new rules).
Hammer of Wrath - Single attack at I10, hitting at strength (no word of it auto-hits or if you have to roll to hit). Jump Infantry is said to have it, and the recent White Dwarf seems to imply Dreadnoughts may have it too.
Zoom - a Flyer USR that keeps the flyer from ramming, tank shocking, being rammed, being tank shocked, must move 18" if at all possible, may turn up to 90* before moving, can move upwards to 36". It may still fire 4 weapons when moving at these speeds. If the flyer ends up moving off the table due to the Zoom rule it may roll to come back on the next turn.
Sky Fire - Allows you to shoot at Flyers without penalties.
Vector Strike - Flying Monstrous Creatures can attack models they fly over inflicting D3+1 hits at strength.
Relentless - No Change.
Fearless - Possible change to assaults: Fearless may no longer cause casualties from losing combat. Fearless Units can't elect to break from combat if they're locked in combat against a unit/model they can't hurt.
Counter Attack - No Change.
Feel no Pain - Now 5+ and is only prevented by Instant Death.
Instant Death - No Change.
Calvary - No movement penalties for difficult terrain, however it is now dangerous terrain (no word if this applies to the change to initiative for assaulting through cover though).
Beasts - Ignore all penalties for moving through terrain (to include assaulting).
Smash - Monstrous Creatures can use this to halve the number of attacks they make on a vehicle to strike at double strength (rumored that it may also let you reroll the penetration result as well).
Preferred Enemy - Reroll all 1s for shooting and close combat (both to hit and to wound).
Furious Charge - +1S, No I bonus
Slow and Purposeful - Move 6", Can Not Run
Skilled Rider - +1 to Cover Save
Rending - AP2 on the roll of a 6, +D3 to armor penetration roll versus Vehicles (also on the roll of a 6)


Weapons
All Close Combat weapons now have an AP value (ranging from - to 1)
Power Weapons now have types with different rules and stats. Most commonly mentioned are the Power Sword (AP3, MAY give a 5++ Invulnerable Save in Close Combat) and the Power Axe (+1S, AP2, Unwieldy). Other types like spears have been mentioned too. If the type of Power Weapon is not mentioned in the book or the FAQ/Errata then the type will be determined by what the model is actively equipped with.
New Weapon USR(s): Unwieldy - Weapon strikes at I1; Rapid Fire - Always get 1 shot to full range or 2 shots at half range. Still can't assault after Rapid Firing; Salvo - Full number of shots at max range when stationary, 1/2 number of total shots at half range if moved.
List of the new Power Weapons as follows:
Powersword: AP3
Poweraxe: +1S, AP2, I1
Powerfist: 2xS, AP2, I1
Chainfist: 2xS, AP2, I1, 2D6 vs. armor
Powermaul: +2S, AP4
Powerlance: +1S & AP3 on the charge, AP4 otherwise
Lightning Claws: S User, AP3, Melee, Shred, Specialist Weapon
Forceweapon: AP3
Force Sword S User, AP3, Melee, Force
Force Axe S +1, AP2, Melee, Force, Unwieldy
Force stave S +2, AP4, Melee, Concussive, Force

Unusual Force Weapons - Force Weapons with special rules are AP3 and use the special rules in their codex (this means you Grey Knights)
Pistols don't add any additional bonuses in combat (may still retain bonus attack for being paired with a CCW though)
Sniper Weapons still wound on 4+, have pinning and rending.
Weapons that don't roll to hit (like the the Monolith Portal) can not be snap-fired. This does not affect Flamer Templates (at least the ones in squads, vehicles are unspecified).
Plasma's "Get's Hot!" rule now effects vehicles. If the Plasma weapon rolls a 1, a second die is rolled. On 1-3 the vehicle takes a Glancing Hit.
Poisoned Weapons wound on a fixed number _unless a lower number would be needed_. No more rerolls.

Close Combat
Assaults are no longer static charges. 2d6" assault range for all models.
Different unit types have different assault ranges. The main rulebook has a table for these
Multi-Assault (assaulting more than one unit with a single unit) no longer gives bonus attacks.
Assaulting Through Cover - Roll 3D6 and discard the highest. Strike at I1 unless you have Assault Grenades.
Overwatch - When charged units able to shoot may do so using the Snap Fire rules. Templates hit d3 times, blast weapons may not be fired. This can only be done once per unit per turn.
No Parry Saves.

Shooting 
Shooting now only works against models the unit can see, with the enemy unit taking saves from closest to furthest, only pulling casualties as models fail their saves. This will likely slow games down, but should prevent other wound allocation cheese that occurs. 
Shots from Overwatch also allocate wounds this way and can prevent a unit from successfully being able to assualt due to taking enough wounds that the first rank doesn't reach the unit.
Regardless of the number of hits actually made, you can only wound and kill models that are in range of your weapons.
No Half Strength blast templates vs vehicles. Templates now do full strength hits regardless where the center hole is.
Independent Characters and Snipers may allocate wounds to visible models in range with rolls of 6s to hit.
Grenades may now be used as a shooting attack.
Unit Leaders (example: Battle Sister Superior) and Independent Characters benefit from "Look Out Sir!" save versus shooting to prevent from taking wounds.
Cover saves are given on a model to model basis, not a unit to unit one. Only 25% of the model needs to be covered though.
Plasma Grenades may be thrown.


Vehicles
Vehicle types now include: Tank, Flyer, Skimmer, Fast, Heavy, Transport, Walker, and Chariot. Vehicles may have more than one type.
Fliers can only be shot on 6s by units that don't have the Sky Fire rule in addition to any rules they get for Hover or Zoom.
Fliers may attempt to 
Heavy Vehicles work like the Monolith. They have a slow movement speed but can still function rather powerfully.
All vehicles now have Hull Points.
Disembarking can only be done if the vehicle moved 6" or less and must be placed within base contact with the access point and then moved upwards to 6" from the access point. No more 8"+ bubble from the access points when disembarking.
Count as WS0 when Stationary and WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn.
Unit counts as moving if the vehicle moves, and may only snap fire if the vehicle moves over 6" (up to 12").
Flyers that explode after zooming in the previous turn inflict an S10 wound on all passengers (no armor saves allowed), and a S6 large blast under where it crashes.
Dark Eldar Raiders, Ravagers, Razorwings and Voidwings have 3 Hull Points.
Dark Eldar Venom has 2 Hull Points.
Leman Russ has 3 Hull Points
Ork Battlewagon has 4 Hull Points
Sentinel has 2 Hull Points
Vehicles in Squadrons must stay within 4" of each other
Immobilized models split off from Squadrons and become independent units
Squadrons are hit closest to furthers from the shooter. So the closest vehicle has to be destroyed before the others can be effected


Hull Points/Damaging Vehicles
When a vehicle is glanced 1 Hull Point is removed for each successful glancing hit. When a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit a Hull Point is lost and then a roll on the vehicle damage chart is made (+1 for Open Topped, +1 for AP2 and +2 for AP1, no penalties for AP-): 1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4-5 Weapon Destroyed, 6 Explodes!). When all Hull Points are gone the vehicle becomes a wreck.
Most vehicles have 3 Hull Points, however some have 4 (examples: Soul Grinder, Land Raider, Ghost Ark, Monolith) and others have 2 (examples: Vyper and Ork Buggies).

Cover
Most things provide a 5+ (to include shooting through units, being inside of craters and being partially concealed) though Ruins give 4+. Vehicles and models now get cover saves if 25% of the model/unit is covered instead of 50%.

Psychic Powers
Units within a certain range have a 6+ to nullify the power, Psychic Hoods improve this to a 4+.
New generic powers are available to most armies with psykers as follows (the list is incomplete at this time but it's been improved upon to give us abetter idea of what we should be looking at for the powers next edition):
Biomancy - 
Smite - 12" Range S4, AP2, Assault 4.
Iron Arm - User gains +D3 Strength and Toughness.
Enfeeble - 24" Range, Target unit gets -1 Strength and Toughness, treats all terrain as difficult.
Endurance - 24" Range, target unit gains the Feel no Pain special rule.
Life Leech - 12" Range, S?, AP?, Assault 2, for every unsaved wound the user gains a wound (up to starting wounds).
Warp Speed - User gets +D3 Initiative.
Haemorrhage - Haemorrhage is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 12". The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover save allowed. If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.

Divination - 
Prescience - 12" Range, Target unit rerolls failed to hit rolls.
Foreboding - Psyker (and any unit the Psyker is with) gain Counter Attack and use their full Ballistic Skill when Overwatching.
Forewarning - 12" range, Target unit gains a 4++ invulnerable
? - Target unit rerolls passed armor saves
Perfect Timing - Psyker and Unit ignore cover saves.
Precognition - Psyker rerolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls and Armor Saves
Scrier's Gaze - Scrier's Gaze is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll three dice and chose the result you want when rolling for Reserves, Outflank and mysterious terrain.

Pyromancy -
Flame Breath - S4, AP5, Assault 1, Template
Fiery Form - Psyker gains +2 strength (unconfirmed?), Blaze special (4++ Invunerable?)
Fire Shield - 24" Range, Target Unit gains a 4+ Cover Save
Inferno - 24" Range, S?, AP?, Assault 1, Soul Blaze (?), Blast, Ignores cover
Spontaneous Combustion - Target model takes 1 wound with no armor/cover saves allowed and a small blast template is centeredon them. Any models hit take a S4, AP5 hit.
Sunburst - 6" Range, S?, AP?, Assault 2D6, Blind (?), Ignores Cover
Molten Beam - 12" Range, S8, AP1, Assault 1, Melta 

Telekinesis -
Assail - 18" Range, S6, AP?, Assault 1, Strikedown (affected target halves their initative and moves as if in dangerous terrain)
Crush - ?" Range, Roll 2D6, Target takes hits equal to strength (11 or 12 auto wound), AP is equal to seperate dice roll
Gaze of Infinity - Remove models from table, Deep Strike anywhere within 24" of their previous location
Objuration - Target enemy unit must reroll to hit and wounds of 6.
Shockwave - Range 12", S?, AP?, Assault D6, Pinning
Telekine Dome - All friendly units in 12" get 5++ Invunerable
Vortex of Doom - is a witchfire power with the following profile: Range 12" S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast* If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psyhick test, centre the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Psyker - in this case, the template does not scatter.

Telepathy
Psychic Shriek - Roll 3D6, unit suffers leadership wounds (?)
Dominte - within 24", must pass a leadership roll or do nothing
Mental Fort(ification) - Unit stops falling back and becomes fearless
Puppet Master - Target model makes an attack as if it were owned by the Psyker
Terrify - Target unit loses Fearless and treats all units as fear causing
Invisibility - Target unit gains shrouding and stealth, hostile units charged by this unit lose counter attack and fight at WS1
Hallucination - is a malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit).
D6 Result
1-2 Bugs! I Hate Bugs! Something unspeakable has gotten under the victims armour and has begun to crawl around. The unit is automatically Pinned, unless it would normally automatically pass Pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
3-4 Ermmm? All sense of urgency is lost, and the befuddled warrior just stare listlessly into space. The unit cannot shoot, Run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
5-6 You! You're a Traitor! Paranoia set in and the panicked warriors lash out at thei comrades. Every model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on his own unit, resolved at that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any).

Generic Powers are taken based on availability determined by a chart in the Big Rule Book. If taken they are used in lieu of the powers listed in the codex. These powers don't replace powers the model automatically has (like Hammerhand).

Units get a 6+ vs Psychic Powers targeted at them
If the unit contains a psyker of equal or lesser Mastery Level it becomes a 5+
If the unit contains a psyker of higher Mastery Level it becomes a 4+
If you have a guy within 6" of the unit with a psychic hood you can roll as if he were in the unit
If the psyker is inside of a vehicle he can only increase the vehicle's save

Allies
Perks/Penalties based on trust level between two armies. Some armies can't ally with certain other armies and Tyranids aren't allowed Allies.
Can NOT ally with your own army to break the FOC.
Allies require you to take 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice before taking any other options. May take an additional Troop Choice and up to 1 of any non-HQ choice from the Ally's army.

Fortifications
Are bought as part of your army in a 0-1 Slot and count against your army's total points.
Fortifications have Hull Points like vehicles.
Can be upgraded (examples given: weapons with the Skyfire rule and Comm Units (give bonuses to reserves)).
Include the Aegis Defense Line, Bastion, Skyshield Landing Pad and Fortress of Redemption.
Must be deployed inside of your deployment zone.

Warlords
New rule sets that add free bonuses to one of your HQs (the one with the highest LD cost, if tied player chooses) based on a die roll on one of the three tables available (no word if Special Characters can get these rolls or if it's limited to generic HQs only):
Command:
1. friendly units in 12" get to use your LD
2. enemy units in 12" use the lowest LD in their squad.
3. all friendly units in 12" get move through cover.
4. all friendly units in 12" may reroll running.
5. all friendly units in 12" re roll 1s to hit when shooting at an enemy within 3 of an objective.
6. all friendly units in 12" add 1 to charge distance.

Personal:
1. warlord and his unit get counter attack if in own deployment zone.
2. warlord and his unit get furious charge if in enemy deployment zone.
3. warlord and any unit he joins in deployment get outflank.
4. get 1 VP for each character killed by you warlord.
5. your warlord and his unit get FnP if within 3" of an objective.
6. your warlord is a scoring unit.

Strategic:
1. all your units get move though cover for ruins and stealth in ruins.
2. you amy have night fighting on the first turn.
3. your outflanking units get acute senses.
4. while he is alive you may reroll reserve rolls.
5. while he is alive your opponent get -1 on reserve rolls.
6. after both sides have deployed but before scouts you may redeploy 1 unit 3D6", or 3 units D6", may not leave deployment zone. 

Terrain
Mysterious Terrain - Similiar to the Magic Terrain rules these are provided as a way to spice up the game when you enter them with effects varying from attacks against all the Psykers on the board to dangerous terrain to the terrain itself assaulting the unit inside.
Mysterious Terrain Table For Objectives:
1 Sabotaged - S4 hits to whole unit,
2 Nothing
3 Skyfire Nexus - Unit gains Skyfire rule
4 Targeting Relay - Reroll1's when shooting
5 Scatterfield - +1 Coversave,
6 Grav Wave Generator - Unit charging halves charge range

Missions
3 Deployment Types - Pitched Battle, Short Table Edges (12" in) and a triangle shaped deployment that cuts the table into fourths, corner to corner style.
6 Scenarios with various objectives and situations. 
Secondary Objectives (add 1 VP) - Slay the Warlord (kill the enemy HQ (perhaps Warlord?)), First Blood (destroy an enemy unit, no word if vehicles will count), Linebreaker (having models in the enemy's deployment zone).

Monstrous Creatures
All attacks are AP2 unless using a weapon that makes them AP1..
Gain Smash versus vehicles, lose 2D6 penetration rolls.
Winged MCs can use Vector Strike against Vehicles. Inflicts D3+1 Hits at Unmodified Strength (sorry, no Smash) at AP2.
Winged MCs may make a Swoop Movement (similiar to a Flyer's Zoom)
While Swooping the MC may fire two weapons.
Vector Strike counts as shooting one weapon. The MC may fire a second weapon at a different target after Vector Striking.
Winged MCs don't count as Flyers and instead have their own specific rules.

Additional rules/changes will be added as discovered. Due to space restrictions I will not be adding anymore long posts with fluff or Q&As to this post though.

EDIT: New additions added in yellow.


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## maddermax

Watch it in full screen, has some interesting glimpses of the rules


New vehicle types: Chariot, Heavy, Flyer (of course) and Hover

Flyer rules: Zoom is 18-36" (crusing and combat speed), and flyers can fire up to 4 weapons at FULL BS while zooming, and cannot be assaulted afterwards. Downside is that flyers can only make a 90degree turn before movement, and have to go straight after that. They can also go off the table and return the next turn, as we've heard before, which will be useful if you want to keep zooming around, to keep your flyer protected.

Also, flyers suffering an immobilised result has to move at the same speed it had been going. If it's destroyed, a large blast template scatters from it, and hits with Str 6. Anyone inside a destroyed transport flyer takes a ST 10 (well, MEQs won't care as long as they don't have an instagibbed expensive character, but IG and Orks will be worried about that), and are placed inside the blast marker. 

Also, theres a little bit on Allies - they come in levels. Allies of convenience, whichever level they might be, treat eachother as enemy models, who cannot be targeted (including by psychic powers) or assaulted. That'll stop quite a bit of the allied shenanigans, though far from all of them. It'll also be good for the Imperial forces, as they'll probably have a lot more Brothers-in-arms allies (which probably have better synergy) than any of the Xeno races.

Few other bits and bobs, mostly stuff we've heard before like Psyker levels and


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## MadCowCrazy

*Flyers*

*Aerial Support*
Flyers must being the game in Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

*Flyers and Measuring*
Flyers have flying bases that suspend them above the battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer's hull, with the exception of the vehicle's weapons and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of the Flyer is effectively ignored, except for when:

-The Flyer is being assaulted, in which case the models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.

-Models are embarking or disembarking from the Flyer, in which case the base of the Flyer is used as the Access Point.

*Flyers and other Models*
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

*Zoom*
Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds making it very difficult to shoot down, but limiting its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and Cruising Speed of 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18". If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

To represent its limited manoeuvrability, a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves. Thereafter, it must move directly forwards in a straight line. In a turn in which a Flyer enter the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again. A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassible terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassible terrain. Finally, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

*Zoom, Tank Shock and Ramming*
Zooming Flyers cannot Tank Shock or Ram nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed.

*Zooming and Shooting*
Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.

*Assaulting Zooming Flyers*
Due to their high speed (and presumably high altitude)...
Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted.

*Leaving Combat Airspace*
It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will....
the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens
the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters
Ongoing Reserves (see page 125). A Flyer that leaves combat
airspace must Zoom back on when it returns from Ongoing
Reserves, even if it has the Hover type.

*Flyers and Damage Results*
Zooming Flyers follow the exceptions given below.

*Locked Velocity*
If a Zooming Flyer suffers an Immobilised result, its velocity is
locked. A Flyer with Locked Velocity cannot change speed
for the rest of the game, but must continue to Zoom at
Combat Speed or Cruising Speed (whichever it was using when
it suffered the Immobilised result). Once a Flyer's velocity is
locked, it cannot Evade and cannot move Flat Out, however
with Locked Velocity you can still turn before it moves as normal
and if it leaves the board will enter Ongoing Reserves.

*Crash and Burn*
If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, its flaming hull
rains down on the battlefield. Centre a large blast marker
over the Flyer - it then scatters 2D6". Any models under the
blast marker's final position suffers a Strength 6, AP- hit. The
Flyer is the taken off the board. If the Flyer is also a transport
any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves
allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the
marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that
cannot be placed are removed as casualites.


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## MadCowCrazy

*Allies*
Unforeseen alliances happen all the time in the murky world of Warhammer 40,000. The Eldar might assist the Tau in destroying a Tyranid invasion, knowing that if they don't the vassals of the Hive Mind will destroy a Craftworld. An Imperial Guard general might hire Orks of the Bloodaxe clan, little realising that his Chaos Space Marine enemies have already struck a similar arrangement with the selfsame greenskins. The possibilities are endless! From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up entirely new tactical possibilities, making your already formidable force even more so.

*Levels of Alliance*
Of course, in the grim darkness of the far future (where there is only war), it's a sad fact that very few armies trust one another entirely - if a all. A labyrinthine history of grudges, wars, campaigns and betrayals (intentional or otherwise) have the....

*Allies of Convenience*
The tides of war can often throw unlikely allies together
forcing them to work in common cause for a time. Such
alliances seldom last for an entire battle, let alone a campaign
but that brief while can be sufficient for immediate ne...

Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy
units that cannot be charged, shot, targetted with psychic
powers or have templates or blast markers placed over.
However, if a psychic power, scattering Blast weapon or other
ability that affects an area hits some of these Allies of Convenience
they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units. This
means that, for example, Allies of Convenience units:

-Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied ch...
-Cannot be joined by allied Independent Characters


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## maddermax

Zion said:


> Touche. I deal with an internet connection that gets pants when I try that so I didn't even try that. I had it on fullscreen and took notes but every time I'd click to my other monitor to take notes it shrinks so my notes were a bit short but covered the big details.


The Screen Print button was invented for a reason 




































/Still props to MCC for typing it out.
//You might need to right click and hit View Image to see the flyer one at it's full res, so it's easier to read.


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## MadCowCrazy

You guys might want to take a look at THIS...


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## MadCowCrazy

Alliances on GW website is exact same as in the Double Weeks, so one can assume the level of alliance between them is the exact same as well. Only thing that's different seems to be the bonuses and negatives.


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## pantat

I for pne am actually very excited about this edition. One of best things is the overwatch imo and using grenades against MCs. Our group spoke about those loads and now its coming through. Hull points i'm still undecided but only because of the lack of concrete evidence of how it really works right now. Bring on thursday already!


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## Doelago

pantat said:


> I for pne am actually very excited about this edition.


Also really excited. Ordered both the special editions, and eagerly awaiting the boxed set. Looking forward to actually playing 40k properly for the first time. :laugh:


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## Synack

Friend linked me this on the GW site. Shows what can be allied with what
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ex=0&aId=22400024a&start=1&multiPageMode=true


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## pantat

Doelago said:


> Also really excited. Ordered both the special editions, and eagerly awaiting the boxed set. Looking forward to actually playing 40k properly for the first time. :laugh:


I probably would have too if i could have afforded it lol. I pretty mich could not be slightly arsed to play 40k since the 5th ed rulebooks were recalled from stores. Concentrated on painting lol


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## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> Alliances on GW website is exact same as in the Double Weeks, so one can assume the level of alliance between them is the exact same as well. Only thing that's different seems to be the bonuses and negatives.
> ]


...:shok:

I can haz orks wit me Dark Angels now?!?!

Hmm. Guess saving those AoBR orks wasn't a terrible idea, this should be hilarious looking.


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## SilverTabby

They're both green, it could work... :wink:

As for nids and no allies - yes, 'stealer cults are a thing. And in friendly games, why not? Thing is, you allow IG and nids to ally *officially*, and people won't just take 'stealers. Suddenly you have tyranid armies with lascannon heavy weapon squads...


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## Necrosis

All you have to say is the heavy weapon squads are just genestealler cultists (along with the people driving the tanks and etc).

Here another example, Dark Eldar capture a bunch of Tyranids. They use their beast-masters (drugs and other stuff) to take control of them.

To be honest, fluff be damned. Every army should have to the ability to take allies or none of them should be able to.


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## Atzunew

It's great that this was reformatted, makes it easy to read through, informative and less cluttered.

On topic though many of these changes seem like good additions for a core set of rules. I wish, for the sake of 'Nid players, that there are at least some alliance opportunities, even if they are all "unholy alliances.

I'll have to see how this all pans out though when we get our books next week for the full story on the rules. Until then though popcorn time to sit and wait! opcorn:

~Atzunew


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## Eleven

alliances are literally the one thing that bring this edition down for me. I hope all the things they put in that I like (which is almlst everything they did) will counter balance this.


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## Wax

So jump packs let you reroll the 2d6" assault, and fleet lets you reroll the 2d6 assault. So what if you have a jump pack and fleet? I'm hoping the fleet one is BS.


----------



## Da Joka

$10 says Catacomb Command Barges get reclassified as Chariots.

Maybe they'll let you use non-shooting attack powers (like Anrakyr The Traveller's Mind in the Machine) while in chariots...


----------



## CattleBruiser

Is it me, or asides from tyranids is every army allowed to ally with basically every other one?


----------



## Zion

CattleBruiser said:


> Is it me, or asides from tyranids is every army allowed to ally with basically every other one?


It seems that way, but allying might not be a thing that is done on a sliding scale (Situational Allies like Blood Angels and Necrons to Trusted Allies like Space Marines and the Imperial Guard). I hope Tyranids get a special rule that lets them pair up with other armies too (Genestealer cults mostly).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Full rulebook picture


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Kill those bastard traitors! For the Lion! For the Emperor! Fuck the Fallen!

... sorry, got a bit carried away there...


----------



## MidnightSun

I don't like the idea that Flying Monstrous Creatures cannot engage in close combat without being 'shot down' first, have I read that right?

Midnight


----------



## AwesomusPrime

MidnightSun said:


> I don't like the idea that Flying Monstrous Creatures cannot engage in close combat without being 'shot down' first, have I read that right?
> 
> Midnight



My understanding is that that rule is in effect only if they make theeir flying attack move and move a certain distance. It was mentioned that they have two ways of moving, I assume the other is 12" and then land and be assaulted as normal.


----------



## maddermax

MidnightSun said:


> I don't like the idea that Flying Monstrous Creatures cannot engage in close combat without being 'shot down' first, have I read that right?
> 
> Midnight


Cannot be engaged, but if they want to engage, they can always just choose not to make the 24" move. However, if you have a shooty MC, being able to fly 24" do d3+1 hits AND shoot two weapons, I can't see why you'd ever not fly. I suppose if there was a battery of hydras that would make you take that falling damage too, that'd be about the only reason. It'll be interesting to see what comes out on top here, as it seems many things are being made more powerful. Except assault, as now units gets more shot up on the way in, lose bonus attacks if they multi-charge, have less effective power weapons and can't engage flyers/flying MCs. Potentially longer charge range I suppose, but it doesn't seem much to count on.


----------



## Sethis

Bikes and Jump Infantry also get impact hits... That's about it from what I've seen. Shrug.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think we will be seeing allot more snipers in 6E, heck Pathfinders will be extremely nasty as they get AP1 on hits of 5-6, so for every hit of a 6 they get to select the model they roll to wound against and that model only gets it's inv or cover save.


----------



## seermaster

mmad cow crazy were did u find the link on gw to the allies tanks psycers etc i cant find it on gw and can only acsess the allies


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

It's not a link - it's from the latest White Dwarf issue.


----------



## seermaster

were do i find it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

seermaster said:


> mmad cow crazy were did u find the link on gw to the allies tanks psycers etc i cant find it on gw and can only acsess the allies


You mean this?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...tm_campaign=Feed:+Astronomican+(Astronomican)


Hmm, it seems they have disabled everything except the Allies, let me get the other links if I can find them.


----------



## CattleBruiser

Guys, if there are no saves against perils of hte warp anymore, does that mean eldar ghosthelms are now useless? or does Codex trump rulebook here too?


----------



## Necrosis

CattleBruiser said:


> Guys, if there are no saves against perils of hte warp anymore, does that mean eldar ghosthelms are now useless? or does Codex trump rulebook here too?


It will probably be FAQ, if not I would say the Codex trumps the FAQ.


----------



## pantat

MadCowCrazy said:


> You mean this?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...tm_campaign=Feed:+Astronomican+(Astronomican)
> 
> 
> Hmm, it seems they have disabled everything except the Allies, let me get the other links if I can find them.



I found this was the case when you posted it last night. And the pictures in the allies page didnt work, just the list on the left


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is a list of everything

Allies You have to press the bar on the Right or click the Next button on the bottom of the page to scroll through them
Psykers
Furious Firefights
Black Library
Legendary Heroes

Rock Hard Tanks
Close Combat
Scenery
Flyers


----------



## seermaster

cheers mate


----------



## Sethis

CattleBruiser said:


> Guys, if there are no saves against perils of hte warp anymore, does that mean eldar ghosthelms are now useless? or does Codex trump rulebook here too?


Ghosthelm is not a save.


> "If a Farseer suffers a Perils of the Warp attack his Ghosthelm will prevent it on a 3+"


It isn't a save against Perils, it prevents it entirely. Ergo Farseers will get it.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a list of everything
> 
> Allies You have to press the bar on the Right or click the Next button on the bottom of the page to scroll through them
> Psykers
> Furious Firefights
> Black Library
> Legendary Heroes
> 
> Rock Hard Tanks
> Close Combat
> Scenery
> Flyers


See I think my post where I wrote them all out might still of been useful here


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You guys might wanna take a look at this as well 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: What are the details for bringing in allied units from other armies? If any, I'm just working off rumors

A: u can take an allied detachment or something. must have 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and may have 1 more troop and 1 of each other slot except HQ. there is a table of who can ally with who and how good friends they are. good friends can join each others unit with independent chars and cast physic powers as if they were friendly. middle friends cant do that. and bad friends have to roll at the begging of each turn if they are withing 6, if they roll a 1 they cant do anything. and a lot of armies can ally at all. nids cant ally with anyone.

Q: What about powers, say a blood angels sanguinary priest with a feel no pain 6" buff. will that work across armies? Even if it specifically says "any friendly units" for some armies? Or have GW gone down the "nope, separate for all" route?

A: probs one for the FAQ, allies specifically talks about physic powers. ps FnP is now 5+.

Q: but works against nearly everything, right? power weapons used to stop it but I believe that's not the case now.

On power weapons. is the power axe/power sword differentiation actually true? I heard they have different profiles now.

A: you get FnP against anything that dosnt cause instant death.

power swords are AP 3. Axes +1 S, AP2 and make you I 1. then there are mauls and spears that are lame.

it says any power weapons unspecified you must look at the model and see what they have for what kind of power weapon they have.

Q: Jesus. Frost weapons for Space Wolves, particularly frost axes just got boner-iffic. S6!

A: no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

Q: Actually, another power weapon question. Do power fists strike auto last then? It seems a power axe would struggle to stand up against a power fist if there wasn't some gap between who went first? If both are I1 then a power fist might be better.

Does that mean there's still a power weapon gets all attacks but power fist only get the base attacks in the profile?

Q: Awesome, thanks! Is there anything specific that jumps out at you as being really cool or really different?

A: power weapons AP 3, throwing grenades as a weapon (so amazing for eldar), hull points, allies, fortifications and new scenarios.

Q: Also, can you tell us about the 6 new missions?


A: hmmm no. on page 334 there is a golden demon display page, go and check at ure local GW if ure so suspicious.

Q: GW is currently closed. They didn't have one to show me yesterday, and I can't imagine they would have had a delivery on a sunday. Don't need your face in it, just the book, and paper with your username and the date.

A: i have no camera, and couldn't be bothered anyway. ask any page and ill tell you whats on it and you can check if u need to tmoz. or you could just ask instead of needing to prove someone wrong.

Q: Its not too much to ask for proof, seems like a pretty standard practice

A: http://imgur.com/L3UMV

Q: Awesome!

Are there any additional scenarios like combat patrol?

A: there are 6 scenarios for general use. all look pretty cool. is combat patrol the one with small armies? i cant see anything like that.

Q: Yeah, it was a white dwarf thing and then in the 4th book I think. 6 sounds good. Is dawn of war deployment gone? As a green tide player having to bring everything on at the start of turn one is such a waste of time.

A: yea new deployments are normal, split from corner to corner and lengthways with 24 between deployment zones.

A: and yea dawn of war is gone.

Q: I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I would love for you to actually have a copy so we can all get some answers. Just a little suspicious after previous AMAs and the Pancake rules.

A: friends camera borrowed. ask away.

Q: Are the codex updates written into the rulebook or separate?

A: no, not in the main book unfortunately. and nothing came with it either.

Q: I would wager that those will be released separately. They've always done FAQ and errata updates on the website.

Q: If I'm not mistaken, I believe there's an appendix at the back of the book that brings all the current stats up to date (i.e. giving vehicles hull points, giving weapons appropriate types, etc.), but that's it for now.

Judging by what they did with Fantasy though, there's gonna be a huge batch of FAQs that'll fix (or "fix") most everything else not too long after the release.

A: yea its all the same stats but changes some of the unit types. makes the flyers actually in to flyers.

Q: What are the rules for infantry types (jump, MC, etc.)?

What is the deal with charges?

What does preferred enemy do?

Hull points?

A: jump move 12, re roll charge dice (2D6) get a impact hits (called hammer of wrath). bikes turbo boost in shooting phase 12 (jet bikes 24, eldar jetbikes 36!!! for a total of 48inch move in 1 turn). charges are 2D6, and u can overwatch against it witch is every model gets to shoot at BS1 except heavy weapons. preferred enemy is reroll all hits and wounds that roll a 1, from shooting and combat!!! hull points are taken off by glancing hits. all gone = wreck. most vehicles have 3. land raider have 4, vipers have 2.

Q: So is preferred enemy reroll 1's for hits and wounds, or reroll all hits, and just 1's for wounds? Also what does fleet do? And what's the deal with the new psychic powers? Specifically, any things shout out as being good/bad for Tyranids?

A: re roll all 1s.

fleet lets you re roll all run and change moves.

dunno for nids. new powers are pretty fun. i like divination and telepathy the most as they give SICK buffs and debuffs.

Q: Does fleet let you do as above and still let you run and assault in the same turn? Thanks for answering questions as well.

A: u cant run and charge even with fleet. lets you reroll the charge and you runs. and thanks. whats the point of having the rules if u cant discuss them with others gamers!

Q: Do you have to use the second result when you reroll the charge for jump packs and fleet? Or can you choose either one?

Q: how many hull points for trukks, battlewagons, and killa kanz?

A: all 3 except wagon thats 4, buggies are 2.

Q: how do hull points work? is there still a random vehicle damage table?

A: pens roll on the table. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon gone, 5 immobilised, 6 explodes. loose all hull points and you get wrecked.

Q: do glances roll on the table?

A: oh and glances take of a hull point but no roll on the table.

Q: Who can Orks ally with!?!?!?

A: battle brothers (good friends) with no one. allies of convenience with chaos marines, IG, necrons and tau. desperate allies with chaos deamons, eldar, dark eldar, most marines. cant ally with nids, blood angles, sisters or Templars.

Q: Can you list the allies for Necrons, please?
A: no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies.

Q: Interesting. Blood Angels aren't allies of convenience for them? I might have to make some possessed blood angels or something. I WILL have the Brofist Alliance.

A: bah, im sorry read it wrong. are desperate allies with Templars and blood angels.

Q: Blegh. Oh well, I guess I can still have some delightful synergies with purifiers adding to my 24" range salvos. I'm definitely modeling scarabs on everybody's heads, though, lol.

Q: Seems like this ally matrix from the GW 2v2 tournament is correct. Can you confirm?

Q: what do the 3 different tiers of allies even mean?

Q: Could you possibly look up the Overwatch ability thing? The wording with template weapons that I have seen all over the place is strange.

A: they do D3 auto hits at S and AP of the weapon. blast cant snapshot so no over-watch shots.

Q: Alright, thanks. Was (kind of) hoping I'd get to put out D3 flamer templates or something. ;p

A: wow you're a bad person if you thought that! lol. as most shots are hitting on a 6, the flamers D3 hits is pretty amazing.

Q: How does counter attack work?
How does overwatch work? Must you give up shooting to set it?

A: just the same as now. and no its more like stand and shoot from fantasy you get to do it even if they dont reach you with that charge.

Q: So if I shoot the shit out of a unit with grey hunters, they can charge me next turn, I get to shoot at them again using overwatch and THEN roll for counter attack?

A: lol yup.

Q: Space Wolves went from good defence and good short range offence to Fucking amazing defence and good short range offence (possibly even better with full range rapid fire move and shoot)

A: yea its looking good, there is a new psychic power that lets you overwatch with full BS as well.

Q: What's the deal with armies who have no psykers? I know (almost) everyone has some sort of 6+ defense thing that's augmented if there's a psyker in the unit (hello, Grey Knights), but what about armies with no psykers (i.e almost half the bloody armies in the game)? Do they get some sort of natural augmented resistence?

A: as far as i can see you just dont get anything extra. but if you are going to i dont think it would be in the main book. look out for updates and FAQs.

Q: Will the Ghosthelm, used by Eldar Farseers and Eldrar, not work to prevent Perils of the Warp anymore?

A: it works the same as far as i can see. eldar only get 2 of the 5 power lists (they are my army as well) but its teh 2 best i think.

Q: Alright, have read rumors there would be no saves against perils, so that's a relief! Another question - what psyker powers are there in Divination and Telepathy?

A: some AMAZING ONES is the answer. i cant be bothered to write them all out so here my faves.

Div: - roll 3 dice for reserves, outflank and terrain and choose. - make an opponent reroll all Armour saves for a game turn! -make a units shooting ignor cover.

Telepathy: - make a single model shoot its own army. -make a unit hallucinate. wither pinned, cant do anything or hits its self. - give a units +3 stealth save, can be counter attacked, and CC opponents are WS1.

Q: Hogging your thread but what about wound allocation.

We know it'staking the nearest model in your unit as a casualty for the FIRST wound you take. Is this the case for for ALL wounds you receive you take the nearest model out, one at a time from the closest to the furthest away or can you then allocate them?

Also, does wound allocation sound fairer to stop people doing that wargear switcharoo to maximise a unit?

A: no its working back from the closest. i like it alot. also as a side note if you cant see a model or are out of range you cant kill it no matter how many wounds you do on the unit. pretty mental.

Q: What about for wound allocation shenanigans (I'd be lynched on warseer who are now lurking this thread if I didn't ask).

Is there a rule to stop people spreading wounds around? Or is the closest model first the GW attempt to do so? Say you cause 3 wounds on a 2 wound per model unit. Do you automatically remove the closest model then put one wound on the next closest? Or can you still use a unique equipment argument to spread them around like people do in 5th?

Q: is the cover save for obscured vehicles still 4+?

A: 5+ sorry, ruins is 4+, most everything else is 5+ including shooting thought troops. but you only need to have 25% hidden or troops or tanks to get cover.

Q: How do challenges work

A: 2D6, if u dont hit you dont move. lots of people can re roll it (jumppacks and fleet.)

Q: those the core rulebook give the details on weapon profiles? if so have any changed? does it list which weapons can shoot air?

A: anything can shoot air, but only with snapshots (6+). some weapons are AA and hit normally.

Q: Can you tell us what weapons (if any) get the Skyfire rule?

Q: How big is the FAQ at the end (assuming there is one)?

Does it help at all to translate codexes or have GW left us to wait for a website one?

A: no FAQ. no help translating, guess it will be done separately.

Q: How does wound allocation work for multi wounded models and different wargear on such models?

Q: And is this 5+ cover save for fast skimmers true or only for Dark Angels as we have also heard.

A: closest to furthest. wargear makes no difference.

Q: Has the turn order changed or is it still Move->Shoot->Assault? What is the terrify USR that Chaos Daemons get now?

A: turns are the same. and its fear for demons. its a LD test or become WS1. fearless units and know no fear and immune to it.

Q: Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat?

Does assaulting into difficult terrain still reduce initiative to 1?

Q: so... how long until you scan it and upload it?

A: i promised i wouldn't so im not gong to. soz.


----------



## Bayonet

MadCowCrazy said:


> You guys might wanna take a look at this as well
> 
> http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/


*Drool*


----------



## scscofield

Hmmm someone with a account to reddit should ask about Calvary/ Beast movements and assaults.


----------



## pantat

Lots of interesting stuff there! Cant wait for thursday!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: Is this 5+ cover save for fast skimmers true or only for Dark Angels as we have also heard and how far do you need to move to get it, if at all.

A: all fast skimmers get jink 5+ cover save if they move at all, so do jetbikes.

Q: Another wound allocation question. In a multi armoured unit (think terminator wolf guard leading a power armoured wearing squad).

How does the wound thing work?

Is it the terminator 2+ save over and over until he finally dies then the rest of the squad? Or is it still a majority armour save applying?


Q: Are there any heftier penalties for being in an Exploding (non-Flyer) Transport?

Q: What's on page 42?

Q: Has fearless changed when you lose a combat? So no more lots of wounds taken when you lose a combat just because you're not scared of anyone?

Q: Are there any changes to Force Organisation? If so, what?

Q: How does the USR rage work now? Any changes allowing u control would make death companies viable if not a bit beast.

Q: Is seize initiative still in?

A: yup, and still roll of for first turn. boring.

Q: whats with shooting with vehicles? is it still one weapon and all defensive weapons?

A: its basically the same except any weapons you could not have previously shot can be snap shotted, so hit on a 6+.

Q: You still cannot assault out of deepstrike correct? Turn order is the same?

A: yea thats all the same.

Q: 1). Does Run still disallow Assaults? If so, does Fleet still overcome this?

2). I'd be thrilled if you could post the Warlord Trait tables.

3). Same deal for some highlights from the Psychic Powers we haven't seen yet would be great.

4). Are you seeing anything about the capability of Characters to decide where their wounds are allocated, along the same lines of new Snipers?

5). Any changes to Deep Strike aside from the new Mishap table?

6). Assault Through Cover specifics! Please!


A: Assulting through cover: roll and extra dice and take away the highest. and then you are I 1 unless you have assault grenades then its normal I order.

A: runs do disallow assaults. fleet dosnt overcome this but lets you reroll your charge. ill have a crack at tables in a bit. yea chars and snipers that roll a 6 to hit can allocate the wound to a legal model. no changes to deep strike except the new (nicer) table.

Q: Ahhh, so it's reliant on sixes even with characters. Still handy.

Must have Assault Through Cover specifics! How does it alter the 2d6 charge, and does the I1 penalty for no grenades still exist?

Q: Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat?
Does assaulting into difficult terrain still reduce initiative to 1?

A: no cant consolidate in to new enemies. and yea makes the assaulting unit I 1.


----------



## SilverTabby

Is it just me, or does that chap only answer questions that are in the rumourmill already? Any specifics on page numbers and questions that haven't been covered are conveniently ignored...

It's not that long to wait. I'll wait til Saturday.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

scscofield said:


> Hmmm someone with a account to reddit should ask about Calvary/ Beast movements and assaults.


I made an account just to be able to ask questions. If anyone has a question THAT HAS NOT BEEN ANSWERED!!! feel free to ask it and I will forward it.
It all depends on whether or not he will answer.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Do buildings have Hull Points, like vehicles?

And are Artillery still shit like 5th ed, or have they been buffed?


----------



## scscofield

I really am curious as to what the Calvary/Beast assault rules are now, since all assaults are 2d6 for other units. That mean Calvary/Beast is 4d6 since they had double the range before?


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I made an account just to be able to ask questions. If anyone has a question THAT HAS NOT BEEN ANSWERED!!! feel free to ask it and I will forward it.
> It all depends on whether or not he will answer.


I've asked for more details on new USR, the new psychic lores and if Monstrous Creatures still get 2d6 to armour pen, but I guess my posts got lost in the mess. Instead tons of people are asking the dumbest things that we already know :/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

scscofield said:


> I really am curious as to what the Calvary/Beast assault rules are now, since all assaults are 2d6 for other units. That mean Calvary/Beast is 4d6 since they had double the range before?


Q: Cavalry/Beast movements and assaults info please

A: move 12. are fleet. cav arnt slowed by terrain but counts as dangerous. beasts ignore terrain altogether!



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Do buildings have Hull Points, like vehicles?
> 
> And are Artillery still shit like 5th ed, or have they been buffed?


Will ask about buildings, the other is not a question but an opinion so wont ask.


----------



## scscofield

Thanks MCC


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: Cavalry/Beast movements and assaults info please

A: move 12. are fleet. cav arnt slowed by terrain but counts as dangerous. beasts ignore terrain altogether!

Q: How does Rage work, is it only +2A on charge or do you actually have control of your unit? Could you list all the USRs?

A: rage is JUST + 2 attacks, no moveing stuff. and i really dont have time to type out all the special rules really sorry

Q: Was the to hit chart rumors true? bs3 hitting moving infantry on 4+ and stationary tanks on 2+ etc

A: no thats not in it anywhere. you hit the same as 5th.

Q: Could you also check if Monstrous Creatures still get 2d6 to armour penetration? Or did that get entirely removed in favor of Smash?

A: yea smash take its place, but does teh same thing just with the option of halfing attacks and doubling strenth.

Q: How fast can a vehicle move before passengers are unable to shoot from it?

A: flatout.

Q: Was the to hit chart rumors true? bs3 hitting moving infantry on 4+ and stationary tanks on 2+ etc

A: no thats not in it anywhere. you hit the same as 5th.

Q: Any changes to the reserve rules?

A: not as such, but there are lots of things that let you reroll, warlord traits and com station as an upgrade for some fortifications.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: Assault Through Cover specifics! Please!

A: Assulting through cover: roll and extra dice and take away the highest. and then you are I 1 unless you have assault grenades then its normal I order.

Q: What about units with Move Through Cover?

A: runs do disallow assaults. fleet dosnt overcome this but lets you reroll your charge. ill have a crack at tables in a bit. yea chars and snipers that roll a 6 to hit can allocate the wound to a legal model. no changes to deep strike except the new (nicer) table.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

MadCowCrazy said:


> the other is not a question but an opinion so wont ask.


Sorry. How are Artillery treated? Do they follow the rules for vehicles, or is it completely different?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: Please, give us some BG. Status of the galaxy? TheEmperor? Is everything finally gone? And about rapid fire: is always 2 shots to 12 and 1 shot to 24? Or if stationary is maybe 2 shots to 24? Thanks a lot, really.

A: i havent read in depth the background, but there is alot and some stunning art work as well. rapid fire always 1 shot to max range, 2 shots to half so tau are getting 2 at 15. but cant assault.

oh acute senses now let you reroll outflank rolls

at 2000 pts you can take 2 FoCs. and 1 fortification slot. aside from that not much.

i really cant find anything about fearless taking extra wounds. i hope im just being a mong and missing it but i really cant find it. 

all things on flying bases are flyers as far as i can see. storm ravens are listen under the vanilla space marine section also!!!!!

Q: Can a model still only make one save? What about ICs?

A: yup one save. except FnP of course


and im wrong smash is AP2 and half attacks to double strength and reroll Armour pen results.


A: Any changes to instant death or do multi-wound models like battlesuits and nid warriors still get gibbed by missiles?

Q: its the same, double S is insta death.


Q: Does relentless do anything other than allow units to assault after firing rapid fire? Extra shots? anything?

A: no, just can move and shoot and shoot and assult with heavy and rapid fire weapons.


Q: Do buildings have Hull Points? Can beasts go into buildings? Template Weapons, how are they fired? Reserve Rolls? 3+ Turn 2? 2+ Turn 3? Automatically come in Turn 4?

A: yea they have hull points. the rest is all the same as 5th.


----------



## scscofield

'at 2000 pts you can take 2 FoCs. and 1 fortification slot. aside from that not much.'

Is this a point limit for ally armies? Or can you do super small ones like 1k.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: 
Any changes to the relentless rule?
Any changes to smoke launchers, and what about extra armour?
Changes to the scout rule?
Are there any big difference in assault when it comes down to combat resulotion? Is there still a sweeping advance etc?

A: no all those are the same as far as i can see.


Q: When you perform Overwatch, is it possible to kill enough models so they dont actually make the distance into CC with you?
If 2 or more units charge 1 unit, can you overwatch both of them? If 4 units charge 2 units, can both units shoot each unit or is it limited to 1 charging unit only?
Any change to Swarms? Still double wounds from blast and template?

A: swarms are the same.
you over watch first and take from teh front. so yea can affect assults. only 1 over watch a turn.

Q: Can you ally with yourself to expand your FOC?

A: no you may not. but at 2000 pts u get a second FOC if u want it.

Q: Here are a few on behalf of Dakkadakka.com:

Are there any new vehicle types (in addition to flyers?)
How does a flyer's 'evade' rule work?
And are there any new universal special rules that really jump out? Or big changes to old ones?
Is sweeping advance still around? Has it changed?
How do fortifications/fortification slots work? Are their costs worked into your normal points allowance, or are they extra?

Thanks.

A: hello dakka dakka.

chariots. look like they work like the necron command barge. and heavy, works like the monlith.

you may choose to evade if you are zooming (as opposed to hovering) works like going to ground and gives you jink but can only shoot snap shots next turn.

acute senses is rerolling outflank. rage is only +2 attack on assult. and as far as i can see fearless dosnt take extra wounds, i looked in the combat section and coudnt find anything about it either.


Q: Still hit a vehicle in the rear armour in close combat? A power axe might be a fairly decent anti vehicle weapon if so.

Can you double check the power axe? Is it minus 1 to Initiative or is it specifically I1? Request from warseer.

A: has the unwieldy rule same as a powerfist. make you I 1. and yes still rear Armour.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Post more questions, I can't think of anything that hasn't really been answered. He wont answer USR questions and still no answer on the artillery one.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Does morale play a larger role in 6th ed? E.g. is it still 25% shooting casualties etc, or is it more prominent?


----------



## scscofield

Is there any 'good' mysterious terrain results, the only ones I have seen make the terrain a horrible choice to enter.


----------



## scscofield

He logged for the day, will be back tomorrow.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

scscofield said:


> Is there any 'good' mysterious terrain results, the only ones I have seen make the terrain a horrible choice to enter.


As none of the armies I play actually have psykers I like the DE psybugs one


----------



## Webster 21

Are Glaive Encarmines ap2 or 3? Do you have any benift from them being two handed and losing an attack?


----------



## pantat

I dont get this whole power axe thing. I used a power axe from sanguinary guard for a power weapon on one of my death company. Obviously the entry is 'power weapon' so i cant use it as an axe can i? I dont even know anything that has power axe as an upgrade. Must read the rules properly myself!


----------



## Atzunew

Really great of that sir/madame to post that up, great work for the community. I can see some shenanigans coming from the TOS wound allocation, I hope I'm wrong as all that could do is create arguments. I can see the new changes to rage making units like BA DC more viable.

~Atzunew


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Atzunew said:


> Really great of that sir/madame to post that up, great work for the community. I can see some shenanigans coming from the TOS wound allocation, I hope I'm wrong as all that could do is create arguments. I can see the new changes to rage making units like BA DC more viable.
> 
> ~Atzunew



Of all the armies Sisters of Battle benefit the most from this rule as it makes Repentia and Penitent Engines actually fieldable. Now I'm starting to think the 17pts for a Repentia is actually worth it.


----------



## scscofield

The way I am reading the wound allocation rules it is closest model dies first. If your unit has different armor types you use the closest armor type first, and go from there. If you have a multiwound model leading he dies first before another takes a save. Seems fairly straightforward.


----------



## scscofield

Heh SW can have 8 hqs at 2k+


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Of all the armies Sisters of Battle benefit the most from this rule as it makes Repentia and Penitent Engines actually fieldable. Now I'm starting to think the 17pts for a Repentia is actually worth it.


Well they took a nerf with fnp.


----------



## scscofield

Still not sure if FnP is a nerf or a sideways buff/change with it being a 5+ to all things but ID


----------



## pantat

scscofield said:


> Still not sure if FnP is a nerf or a sideways buff/change with it being a 5+ to all things but ID


Agree. 5+ is worse but against almost everything is much better


----------



## Kelann08

MadCowCrazy said:


>


Considering 2,000 points is a pretty common size, that chart worries me. I don't see why it isn't 2,001+ doubles your FOC. Is that chart interpreted from resoponses on Reddit or is it a replica of one in the book?


----------



## scscofield

It is misleading, it is a second FoC. Which means you would have to take 1 hq and 2 troops before you started to add the other stuff.


----------



## Kelann08

scscofield said:


> Still not sure if FnP is a nerf or a sideways buff/change with it being a 5+ to all things but ID


I still think they got rid of AP 4, 5, and 6 weapons meaning weaker armor saves will get their save and FNP. It'll be AP 1, 2 or 3 or you get your save.


----------



## Kelann08

scscofield said:


> It is misleading, it is a second FoC. Which means you would have to take 1 hq and 2 troops before you started to add the other stuff.


Yeah, my concern is with one FOC up to 2,000 you can only take 3 of each slot. If you allow double FOC at 2,000 you can bring HQ, two troops and 6 HS or 6 elite to cap out your points.


----------



## scscofield

Points will limit how op that could be though, it's still only 2k and you will have to spend at least 4-600 of that in hq and troop requirements


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> Heh SW can have 8 hqs at 2k+


So can Chaos Daemons (2 Heralds to an HQ slot).

Sorry folks, I can't add MCC's post from Reddit to the first post, it's just too long.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> So can Chaos Daemons (2 Heralds to an HQ slot).
> 
> Sorry folks, I can't add MCC's post from Reddit to the first post, it's just too long.


This is the reason I have about 10 posts in all rumour threads, a post can contain a max of 60 000 characters. I run out all the time and when that happens and you manage to save the change doesn't happen and when you press edit all your text is gone....

So always keep a copy of your bigger posts.

As for the Reddit answers, it would be better to simply shorten them down to simple short answers.


----------



## aboytervigon

At 2k can you have 3 allies? Cause Deathguard with traitor guard, epidemius and necrons sounds awesome.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> This is the reason I have about 10 posts in all rumour threads, a post can contain a max of 60 000 characters. I run out all the time and when that happens and you manage to save the change doesn't happen and when you press edit all your text is gone....
> 
> So always keep a copy of your bigger posts.
> 
> As for the Reddit answers, it would be better to simply shorten them down to simple short answers.


The Reddit stuff took us over 64K. I'll have to do a lot of reading and shortening to get us a coherent and shorter post. In the meantime I've just linked the main post to your posts.


----------



## Kelann08

aboytervigon said:


> At 2k can you have 3 allies? Cause Deathguard with traitor guard, epidemius and necrons sounds awesome.


We don't have access to the rules to indicate you can't, but I seriously, seriously, seriously doubt it. The flavor text before the rules says something "an allied detachment" not "allied detachments". Allies, like fortifications, are likely to be optional extensions of the FOC, not a part of it that doubles at 2,000 points.


----------



## aboytervigon

Meh I can dream.


----------



## Kelann08

aboytervigon said:


> Meh I can dream.



At some point the line needs to be drawn. Why even have different "factions" if you could take anything you want from anywhere. I'm sure the eternal GW hating skeptics in the world like to think this is no doubt the road we're going down (as some I've seen seem to think the addition of flyers means one day GW will allow Titans in normal games just to sell them) but as long as allies are balanced in some fashion, there's no need to continue expanding the process. There's no need for you to own one army that features CSM, IG and Necrons. If you want to play a game like that, you could easily play doubles with someone who has your missing component. 

Fluff balances on a knife's edge right now. It still needs to be important.


----------



## aboytervigon

Nurgle traitor guard, Death guard and nurgle daemons fit in with the fluff perfectly. Plus necrons are like chuck Norris and the emperor in a fanboys wet dream.

-Necron fanboy


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Slaanesh and Nurgle worshipper in me is delighted over allies...


----------



## Azkaellon

MadCowCrazy said:


> The Slaanesh and Nurgle worshipper in me is delighted over allies...
> 
> LMFAO - Sorry For Party Rocking Parody - I Should Have Worn a Condom - YouTube


The Dark Eldar in me is making me happy i get to use humans as meat shields


----------



## Zion

I cleaned up the Reddit stuff to be easier to read through (often by rewriting the questions and answers to be shorter, directly to the point and less opinionated), removed the duplicates and any questions that didn't get answered.



> Q: How do allies work?
> A: Allies work by taking an Allied Detachment. You must have 1 HQ and 1 Troop Choice from the Allied Army, in addition you may have 1 additional Troop Choice and 1 of any other non-HQ slot. There is a chart that details the level of allies and their bonuses/penalties. Nids don't ally with anyone.
> 
> Q: Are powers/special rules shared?
> A: Probably covered in FAQs. The Allies rules specifically mention psychic powers.
> 
> Q: Is FnP now a 5+ vs almost anything?
> A: Yes, against anything that doesn't cause Instant Death.
> 
> Q:Are Power Swords and Power Axes different now?
> AL: Yes, Power Swords are AP3 and hit at the model's strength, Power Axes are +1S, AP2 and make you I1. There are Mauls and Spears but those aren't very good. Additionally for if the power weapon is unspecified then you look at the model and see what kind of weapon they have.
> 
> Q: How will Frost Weapons work?
> A: If it has its' own special rules but counts as a power weapon it'll be AP3. But FAQs should help sort this out further.
> 
> Q: Actually, another power weapon question. Do power fists strike auto last then? It seems a power axe would struggle to stand up against a power fist if there wasn't some gap between who went first? If both are I1 then a power fist might be better.
> 
> Does that mean there's still a power weapon gets all attacks but power fist only get the base attacks in the profile?
> 
> Q: Anything that strikes you as really cool or different?
> A: Power Weapons being AP3, the ability to throw Grenades as a weapon, hull points, allies, fortifications and new scenarios.
> 
> Q: What do the new deployments look like?
> A: Pitched Battle is still around, the table being split from corner to corner and lastly lengthways with 24” between deployment zones. And no more Dawn of War.
> 
> Q: Are the codex updates in the main rulebook or included with the rulebook?
> A: No. They're probably getting released in FAQ/Errata updates on the website. Some of the stat blocks in the back update the unit types though.
> 
> Q: What are the rules for some unit types?
> A: Jump Infantry moves 12”, rerolls the charge distance, and gets an impact hit (called Hammer of Wrath); Bikes turbo-boost in the shooting phase 12” (24” for Jetbikes, and 36” for Eldar Jetbikes),
> 
> 
> Q: How do charges work?
> A: Charges are 2d6” for all units (Overwatch can be used against this at BS1 for everything but heavy weapons).
> 
> Q: How does Preferred Enemy Work?
> A: Preferred Enemy gives rerolls against all hits and wounds that roll 1s, for shooting and close combat.
> 
> Q: How do Hull Points work?
> A: Hull Points are lost by any glancing or penetrating hit. When the hull points are gone the vehicle becomes wrecked. Most vehicles have 3, though some (like Land Raiders) have 4, and Vipers have 2.
> 
> Q: How does Fleet work?
> A: Fleet lets you re-roll all run and charge moves. You can't run and charge in the same turn with fleet any more though.
> 
> Q: How many Hull Points do Orks get?
> A: Everything gets 3 Hull Points each, except Battle Wagons get 4 and Buggies get 2.
> 
> Q: How does the Vehicle Damage Table work?
> A: Glancing rolls don't roll on the table anymore, and the table is as follows: 1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 Weapon Destroyed, 5 Immobilised, 6 Explodes. Lose all the Hull Points and you become wrecked.
> 
> Q: How does Overwatch work for Template weapons?
> A: Template weapons do D3 autohits at S and AP of the weapon. Blast weapons can't snapshot so no overwatch shots.
> 
> Q: Does Counter Attack change?
> A: No, it's the same as it is now.
> 
> Q: Do you have to skip shooting to get the overwatch shooting attack?
> A: No. It's more like stand and shoot from fantasy. Additionally you get to do it even if the charge fails.
> 
> Q: If I shoot at a unit with Grey Hunters, then I'm charged the next turn can I shoot them with Overwatch AND roll for counter attack?
> A: Yes.
> 
> Q: Are there any bonuses for armies that have no psykers?
> A: I didn't see anything extra, but it may be in the updates and FAQs.
> 
> Q: How does wound allocation work for shooting now?
> A: It's closest to farthest, but only against the models you can actually see. You can't kill the models that are out of line of sight now.
> 
> Q: What about for wound allocation shenanigans (I'd be lynched on warseer who are now lurking this thread if I didn't ask).
> 
> Q: How do cover saves work?
> A: Ruins give a 4+, most things give a 5+ (to include shooting through troops or obscured vehicles but only 25% needs to be covered to qualify now).
> 
> Q: What kind of weapons can shoot flyers?
> A: Anything can shoot at flyers (at BS1), but only weapons with Skyfire get to shoot at fliers without penalities.
> Q: How does wound allocation work for multi-wound models or with different wargear.
> A: It's closest to furthest only. Wargear makes no difference.
> 
> Q: Has the turn order changed?
> A: No, it's still Move->Shoot->Assault.
> 
> Q: Do Daemons get anything?
> A: Daemons cause fear. It's a Leadership test or become WS1. Fearless units, “And They Shall Know No Fear” and units without leadership values are immune.
> 
> Q: Does the Jink rule apply to all fast skimmers or just for Dark Angels?
> A: All fast skimmers get a 5+ cover save if they move at all, as do all jetbikes.
> 
> Q: Is seize initiative still in?
> A: Yes. And players still roll to see who goes first.
> 
> Q: Have shooting with vehicles changed?
> A: Basically the same, except that any weapons that haven't been shot (for example sponsons on a Predator that has fired its turret weapon) can be snap shot and will hit on 6+.
> 
> Q: Has Assualting after Deep Striking changed?
> A: No. It's still the same.
> 
> Q: How does assaulting through cover work?
> A: Roll an additional D6 and discard the highest, and you hit at I1 unless you have assault grenades then you strike in initiative order.
> 
> Q: Do Snipers and Characters allocate wounds?
> A: Yes, the can allocate wounds to a legal model (one they can see and is in range) on a to hit roll of a 6.
> 
> Q: Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat?
> A: No.
> 
> Q: How do Cavalry/Beasts movements/assaults work?
> A: Cavalry/Beasts have a 12” movement in the movement phase and are fleet. Cavalry aren't slowed by terrain but count difficult as dangerous terrain, but beasts ignore terrain completely.
> 
> Q: How doe Rage work?
> A: Rage adds +2 attacks on the charge. No movement restrictions.
> 
> Q: Has the Close Combat To Hit Chart Changed?
> A: No.
> 
> Q: Has the Smash rule replaced Monstrous Creatures getting a 2d6 penetration roll versus vehicles?
> A: Yes. You either get all your attacks at strength against the vehicle or half your attacks to double your strength and reroll the Armour Penetration result.
> 
> Q: How fast must a vehicle move before the passengers are unable to shoot from it?
> A: Flatout.
> 
> Q: Were the to hit chart rumors true (bs3 hitting moving infantry on 4+, and stationary tanks on 2+, ect)?
> A: No, it's the same as it is now.
> 
> Q: Any changes to the reserve rules?
> A: Not directly. There are a lot of new things that let you reroll though (warlord traits and the comm station for some fortifications).
> 
> Q: How does Rapid Fire work?
> A: Always 1 shot to max range and 2 shots at half range. Still can't assault after shooting.
> 
> Q: Anything else worth noting?
> A: Acute senses now let you reroll outflank rolls, at 2,000 points you can take 2 Force Organisation Chasts and 1 Fortification Slot. There doesn't seem to be any additional wounds for losing combat if you're fearless but I may have missed that. And it seems all things with flyer bases are now flyers.
> 
> Q: Can a model still only make one save?
> A: Yes, except for Feel no Pain models only get one save.
> 
> Q: Any change to Instant Death?
> A: No changes. Doubt strength still causes instant death.
> 
> Q: Has Relentless changed?
> A: No. It just lets you move, shoot and assault with heavy and rapid fire weapons.
> 
> Q: Do buildings have Hull Points?
> A: Yes.
> 
> Q: With Overwatch is it possible to kill enough models that the charging unit fails the charge?
> A: Yes.
> 
> Q: Can you use Overwatch against multiple units that charge a single unit?
> A: No. Each unit can only use Overwatch once per turn.
> 
> Q: Any changes to Swarms?
> A: No.
> 
> Q: Can you ally with yourself to expand your Force Organisation Chart?
> A: No. At 2,000 points you get a second Force Organisation Chart though.
> 
> Q: Are their any new vehicle types?
> A: Chariots (they look like they work like the Necron Command Barge), and Heavy (which works like the Monolith).
> 
> Q: How does a flyer's 'evade' rule work?
> A: You may choose to evade if you are zooming (as opposed to hover) and it works like you are going to ground and gives you jink (5+ save) but you can only shap shot the next turn.
> Q: When you assault a vehicle do you still hit the rear armour?
> A: Yes.
> 
> Q: Is the Power Axe -1 Iniative or specifically I1?
> A: It has the unweildy rule just like the Powerfist which makes you I1.


EDIT: Something I noticed from the WD: it's mentioned that Dreadnoughts get the Hammer of Wrath (which is reportedly the rule name for Impact hits). Page 33 under the box that starts with "Carl:".

EDIT PART DEUX: Also from the WD, the Fortress of Redemption is Fortification. It starts at 20 points cheaper than a Redeemer. The good news is that since Fortifications have hull points (and it's already Immobilized since it's a building), breaking it shouldn't be too out of the question


----------



## Necrosis

Rumors from DakkaDakka

Warlord. Your warlord is one of your HQs with the highest LD, you choose in a draw. 3 different charts command traits, personal and strategic.

Command:
1.) friendly units in 12 get to use your LD
2.) enemy units in 12 use the lowest LD in their squad.
3.) all friendly units in 12 get move through cover.
4.) all friendly units in 12 may reroll running.
5.) all friendly units in 12 re roll 1s to hit when shooting at an enemy within 3 of an objective.
6.) all friendly units in 12 add 1 to charge distance.

Personal:
1.) warlord and his unit get counter attack if in own deployment zone.
2.) warlord and his unit get furious charge if in enemy deployment zone.
3.) warlord and any unit he joins in deployment get outflank.
4.) get 1 VP for each character killed by you warlord.
5.) your warlord and his unit get FnP if within 3 of an objective.
6.) your warlord is a scoring unit.

Strategic:
1.) all your units get move though cover for ruins and stealth in ruins.
2.) you amy have night fighting on the first turn.
3.) your outflanking units get acute senses.
4.) while he is alive you may reroll reserve rolls.
5.) while he is alive your opponent get -1 on reserve rolls.
6.) after both sides have deployed but before scouts you may redeploy 1 unit 3D6 inches, or 3 units D6 inches, may not leave deployment zone.


----------



## Da Joka

Soo when will all of these "rumors" start to break the forum rules of posting word for word rules?


----------



## Kelann08

Da Joka said:


> Soo when will all of these "rumors" start to break the forum rules of posting word for word rules?


I would assume when we know they actually are rules.


----------



## LukeValantine

Still fail to see the point in ever taking a power axe unless they are like 10 points and PFs are 25pts.


----------



## scscofield

Power axe adds +1 to str


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Has there been any change in other weapons, namely chainswords/axes, or do they still do the same as hitting someone with a pointy stick?


----------



## LukeValantine

scscofield said:


> Power axe adds +1 to str


I know but they are also apparently I1just like a fist so why the hell would you bother taking a axe?


----------



## maddermax

LukeValantine said:


> I know but they are also apparently I1just like a fist so why the hell would you bother taking a axe?


Might be cheaper? And not everyone has the option of Power Fists.


----------



## SilverTabby

MadCowCrazy said:


> Of all the armies Sisters of Battle benefit the most from this rule as it makes Repentia and Penitent Engines actually fieldable. Now I'm starting to think the 17pts for a Repentia is actually worth it.


True, but the supposed nerf of the Fleet rule (you can reroll runs but not run then assault) makes my girls AND my 'nids much slower, and will get shot to pieces more. 

I am perplexed that Relentless should become the new Fleet. That's going to throw all the armies built to be fast on their heads, and 1k Sons into an assault army...

However, my Carnifexes become a better option than my Trygon now. No Smash shenanigans needed, just full attacks at S9/10 :biggrin:


----------



## pantat

SilverTabby said:


> True, but the supposed nerf of the Fleet rule (you can reroll runs but not run then assault) makes my girls AND my 'nids much slower, and will get shot to pieces more.
> 
> I am perplexed that Relentless should become the new Fleet. That's going to throw all the armies built to be fast on their heads, and 1k Sons into an assault army...
> 
> However, my Carnifexes become a better option than my Trygon now. No Smash shenanigans needed, just full attacks at S9/10 :biggrin:


Terminators are looking awesome now too (if that is true). Most of the time still using 2+ armour and a potential 24" charge?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Q: Ordnance weapon still disallows a vehicle from firing all other weapons?
A: Yes

Q: How exactly does hitting a tank in cc work
A: WS1 if it moved, WS0 if it didn't, so auto hit


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So basically power swords are used to cut down marines and power fists are used to cut down stronger units like Terminators, probably about right, although power axes are weird.


----------



## Bodo1260

Has anything been said about super-heavies?


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> So basically power swords are used to cut down marines and power fists are used to cut down stronger units like Terminators, probably about right, although power axes are weird.


They're probably cheaper than Power Fists, and I'm guessing that units who don't have Power Fists may have those instead.


----------



## elmir

Erm, what am I missing here... Why would powerweapons be less effective against terminators?

Also... Any word on GK nemesis weaponry and how they fit in now?


----------



## kickboxerdog

elmir said:


> Erm, what am I missing here... Why would powerweapons be less effective against terminators?


from what i read it said that power swords will have AP 3 in cc and power axes AP2 but not sure if thats confirmed


----------



## Madden

Anyone know about rending? And the jumpers hammer attack does it use there weapon bonuses (power/rend etc)? Thanks


----------



## Da Joka

Bodo1260 said:


> Has anything been said about super-heavies?


Super Heavies are still Apoc Only. With the new system they did get buffed however. As a Glance now does Nothing to a Super Heavy, only pens do anything.


----------



## SilverTabby

Hmmm. If rumours are to believed, shooting is even better than it was and cc armies suffer a downgrade. Fleet no longer gets you across the table any faster, but because everyone (even heavy weapons) get to move and fire they had to make relentless worth it, so made it a shooting *and* an assaulting buff. 

I definately need to see how all this is going to balance up, the FAQs are going to be huge...


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Hmmm. If rumours are to believed, shooting is even better than it was and cc armies suffer a downgrade. Fleet no longer gets you across the table any faster, but because everyone (even heavy weapons) get to move and fire they had to make relentless worth it, so made it a shooting *and* an assaulting buff.
> 
> I definately need to see how all this is going to balance up, the FAQs are going to be huge...


Initially it's going to be a fuster clcuk until we get used to the rules. Fleet did get worse in that you can't run and assault but fleeting units get the reroll for assaulting so they can assault more reliably more often. With everyone having an 18" threat range now for charging I don't really see it as a downside to Fleet as if they kept the old rule we'd have a 24" threat range for Fleet.


----------



## Gret79

Zion said:


> With everyone having an 18" threat range now for charging.


Aargh! my guardians 12" shooting range just got even worse :angry:


----------



## SilverTabby

I will have to see how it affects my 'nids, and other armies like DE. Assaulting now 8 - 18" as opposed to 13 - 18" previously, and you can be shot at as you close for cc. 

Not going to let it dent my keen though. :wink:


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Initially it's going to be a fuster clcuk until we get used to the rules. Fleet did get worse in that you can't run and assault but fleeting units get the reroll for assaulting so they can assault more reliably more often. With everyone having an 18" threat range now for charging I don't really see it as a downside to Fleet as if they kept the old rule we'd have a 24" threat range for Fleet.


It appears it's going to be a fun, new and refreshing clusterfuck, but yes, a clusterfuck nonetheless.

Also, Space Wolves have been buffed even more as they can now shoot like crazy and render practically any CC-based unit next to useless against them. Oh, and Wyches get shafted, I foresee plenty of auctions as DE players will try to get rid of a unit that has been rendered quite useless and instead get everything that can shoot and only shoot forever and ever.

Indeed, aside from terminators, it seems like going CC is pretty much suicide and fleet doesn't help one bit. Guess SPACE MARINES weren't buffed through the roof enough and needed something _more_ to gloat on.


----------



## Zion

Gret79 said:


> Aargh! my guardians 12" shooting range just got even worse :angry:


Everyone's 12" shooting got a little worse (or at least less safe), but Rapid Fire weapons got better (always get 1 to max range and 2 to half range but can't assault) so even if you're shuffling away from enemy units with say, Sisters, you'll be able to pop shots off to prevent from getting steamrolled.

Additionally your Guardians are going to get to pop shots off as BS1 if they're charged, even if the charge fails (though they can only do this once a turn so I expect to see a rise in cheaper units charging first to take the Overwatch shots instead of the killier blender units to compensate for this), and with one of the new psychic powers (and Eldar do have access to it you can make units Overwatch at their full BS instead.


----------



## Gret79

Off the top of my head, the only unit I can think of for eldar that gets rapid fire are the warp spiders. They've still only got a 12" range...All the cover I can find to buy is imperial/orks (they've got walls) and no fliers for me yet...

I need an FAQ... where it turns my fast skimmers into fliers (like the 3 falcon apoc formation) and puts everything right with the world 

I'm also assuming that my opponants will know I've cast the overwatch power on a squad. and then not charge it, but something else...

However, I like the multi-squad charge nerf - no attacking bonuses and all of the charged squads get to shoot


----------



## Synack

If move through cover ignores all difficult terrain effects, including striking at I1 when charging into CC, then I'm more than happy with the fleet change. Ravenours look pretty good now. They always had a 24" threat range, but it looks way more reliable now.

One of the biggest issues I had with the Nid codex was the loss of a "assault grenade" type effect. If move through cover fixes this, it will help the Nids loads.


----------



## Eleven

Gret79 said:


> I need an FAQ... where it turns my fast skimmers into fliers (like the 3 falcon apoc formation) and puts everything right with the world


i'm pretty sure you would never want this to happen.

Think about it, all your tanks flying around willy nilly out of control. 

It would be one thing to plan actions for 2-3 fliers, but for 9-14?

Granted you could just put them on the ground with the regular skimmer rules, but then what would be the point?

You also won't be able to zoom in and capture objectives on the last turn anymore, so basically eldar are doomed until the next codex. They were already pretty bad off in my opinion though. it's not a good sign when net lists still have trouble beating fluffy armies.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> It appears it's going to be a fun, new and refreshing clusterfuck, but yes, a clusterfuck nonetheless.
> 
> Also, Space Wolves have been buffed even more as they can now shoot like crazy and render practically any CC-based unit next to useless against them. Oh, and Wyches get shafted, I foresee plenty of auctions as DE players will try to get rid of a unit that has been rendered quite useless and instead get everything that can shoot and only shoot forever and ever.
> 
> Indeed, aside from terminators, it seems like going CC is pretty much suicide and fleet doesn't help one bit. Guess SPACE MARINES weren't buffed through the roof enough and needed something _more_ to gloat on.


I don't see Wyches being that bad. You reroll the charge range (less failed charges meaning you won't end up standing in front of a unit to get rapid fired) and against your standard Marine (Bolters, BS4, ect) they only lose 2 models on average on the charge to Overwatch which turns into 1 with FnP. Then the Wyches still swing first and do mean things to the Marines.

Personally I see the CC units who will be least affected by this are units like the Death Cultists (who will still nuke Tactical Squads in close combat) who pack in large numbers of power weapon attacks. Though it seems the best thing to kill Terminators in close combat will be other Terminators. Which means shooting them will massed fire is the best option.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> They're probably cheaper than Power Fists, and I'm guessing that units who don't have Power Fists may have those instead.


i'm just hoping that warscythes count as power axes...


----------



## darklove

Eleven said:


> i'm just hoping that warscythes count as power axes...


Warscythes are not power weapons, they have their own rules.


----------



## SilverTabby

Synack said:


> If move through cover ignores all difficult terrain effects, including striking at I1 when charging into CC, then I'm more than happy with the fleet change. Ravenours look pretty good now. They always had a 24" threat range, but it looks way more reliable now.
> 
> One of the biggest issues I had with the Nid codex was the loss of a "assault grenade" type effect. If move through cover fixes this, it will help the Nids loads.


If move through cover does indeed do this, then suddenly the *entire* 'nid army pretty much gets frag grenades - unless they've taken it away from MCs, in which case the Carnifex is *even better*. Which would be nice. :biggrin: 

I like my Raveners. Depends what they've done to Beasts movement-wise, it looks like they're trying to level everything that isn't airborne to an 18" threat range, with various rerolls.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


>


Jesus....I hope that's not true. 0-4 for 2000 points would have been 1 thing but 0-6?

So at 1850 points we will see normal balanced armies but at 2000 points we will se armies with 6 heavy support options? I sure hope not. That's practically apoc levels of cheese and unbalance.

The very thought of wolves with 6 units of longfangs makes me crank up my costanza.jpeg to 11.


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> I like my Raveners. Depends what they've done to Beasts movement-wise, it looks like they're trying to level everything that isn't airborne to an 18" threat range, with various rerolls.


i'm hoping for beasts to always roll a 12 on charges.


----------



## Zion

darklove said:


> Warscythes are not power weapons, they have their own rules.


Pending any FAQ/Erratas of course. GW may indeed be changing that to decrease the number of "counts as power weapons" and "ignores armor" for actual AP values. So what GW does with the Warscythe will have to be seen when the FAQs come out.


----------



## Gret79

Zion said:


> Pending any FAQ/Erratas of course. GW may indeed be changing that to decrease the number of "counts as power weapons" and "ignores armor" for actual AP values. So what GW does with the Warscythe will have to be seen when the FAQs come out.


Do we know when 'roughly' faq's/errata will be updated with 6th?

I've not paid attention during a rule change before.


----------



## Synack

SilverTabby said:


> If move through cover does indeed do this, then suddenly the *entire* 'nid army pretty much gets frag grenades - unless they've taken it away from MCs, in which case the Carnifex is *even better*. Which would be nice. :biggrin:
> 
> I like my Raveners. Depends what they've done to Beasts movement-wise, it looks like they're trying to level everything that isn't airborne to an 18" threat range, with various rerolls.


Well, the reddit (page 1 quote) Q&A said that beasts now move 12" but ignore all difficult terrain when moving (and hopfully assaulying). Since they have fleet, they reroll the charge too.


----------



## Synack

Gret79 said:


> Do we know when 'roughly' faq's/errata will be updated with 6th?
> 
> I've not paid attention during a rule change before.


They should come out either on the day, or within a couple days. The FAQs have probably been done for quite sometime, so there shouldn't be much delay putting them up. It's the 1.1 and 1.2 vesions that may take some time. But the WHFB FAQs were updated pretty quick.


----------



## scscofield

Eleven said:


> Jesus....I hope that's not true. 0-4 for 2000 points would have been 1 thing but 0-6?
> 
> So at 1850 points we will see normal balanced armies but at 2000 points we will se armies with 6 heavy support options? I sure hope not. That's practically apoc levels of cheese and unbalance.
> 
> The very thought of wolves with 6 units of longfangs makes me crank up my costanza.jpeg to 11.


I don't see this being that bad honestly, if someone does go to town on things like LF spam the rest of their army will suffer badly. 6 ml LF units would be 840 points, plus another 200 in hqs and at the very least 300 in 4 stripped troops. Would leave you 660 points to try and fill all the gaps your army had. The chart is misleading in the fact that it is 2 FoCs at 2k so you would be required to take 2 hq and 4 troops.


----------



## darklove

Zion said:


> Pending any FAQ/Erratas of course. GW may indeed be changing that to decrease the number of "counts as power weapons" and "ignores armor" for actual AP values. So what GW does with the Warscythe will have to be seen when the FAQs come out.


Some weapons in the Necron codex are specifically identified as Power Weapons. Warscythes are not, instead they have a description that explains how they work; i.e. +2 S, 2d6 AP and no armour saves allowed.


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> I don't see this being that bad honestly, if someone does go to town on things like LF spam the rest of their army will suffer badly. 6 ml LF units would be 840 points, plus another 200 in hqs and at the very least 300 in 4 stripped troops. Would leave you 660 points to try and fill all the gaps your army had. The chart is misleading in the fact that it is 2 FoCs at 2k so you would be required to take 2 hq and 4 troops.


I'm not so sure that the list you just created there wouldn't be fucking epic.

I'm loving the rumor that ATSKNF makes you immune to the daemon's fear effect. So chaos space marines will be afraid of the daemons but regular marines will not. Pretty smart move GWS.

Now let's think about what armies will actually be effected by this fear. Well for starters these armies will be immune:

Space marines
blood angels
Space wolves
Grey knights
Black Templars
Dark Angels
Tyranids
Most of chaos (except for chaos lords, and csms, lol)
Daemons
Orks usually


That leaves a couple of armies that are going to be feared by daemons
Tau
IG
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Sisters of battle (lol)


So basically, the eldar are the only ones that will really suffer for this rule. I think making space marines immune to the daemon's fear is a pretty big fail for gws. Why create the fear at all?


----------



## scscofield

Epic for the first turn of shooting.... You can't Overwatch or Snapfire blast weapons. Your LF would die the moment something got in among them.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> Epic for the first turn of shooting.... You can't Overwatch or Snapfire blast weapons. Your LF would die the moment something got in among them.


Long Fangs with Lascannons would work great though. Heavy Bolters wouldn't be too bad either. The real question is if you can snapfire the Krak Missile since it's not a blast.


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> i'm hoping for beasts to always roll a 12 on charges.


A 3D6 charge range, or roll 3 dice discard the lowest would give a similar effect. 



scscofield said:


> I don't see this being that bad honestly, if someone does go to town on things like LF spam the rest of their army will suffer badly. 6 ml LF units would be 840 points, plus another 200 in hqs and at the very least 300 in 4 stripped troops. Would leave you 660 points to try and fill all the gaps your army had. The chart is misleading in the fact that it is 2 FoCs at 2k so you would be required to take 2 hq and 4 troops.


Except that that table says at 2k, minimum HQ is 1, and minimum troops is 2. It doesn't say 2 FOC. It says 'this is how many of each you can take'. 

This is the problem with taking small sections out of context. Besides, I doubt that's lifted straight from the book, as the book would not use the words "6th edition"


----------



## scscofield

The guy who has been answering questions with direct access from the book: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/

Has stated multiple times that it is 2 FoC and 1 Fortification at 2k.


----------



## SilverTabby

scscofield said:


> Epic for the first turn of shooting.... You can't Overwatch or Snapfire blast weapons. Your LF would die the moment something got in among them.


They're still marines. They've still got better than average stats, power armour, and any other bonuses Space Wolves get. Heavy weapon encumberance vanished several editions ago.


----------



## SilverTabby

scscofield said:


> The guy who has been answering questions with direct access from the book: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/
> 
> Has stated multiple times that it is 2 FoC and 1 Fortification at 2k.


Then take down that table. It's misleading and not from the book :wink:


----------



## scscofield

SilverTabby said:


> A 3D6 charge range, or roll 3 dice discard the lowest would give a similar effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that that table says at 2k, minimum HQ is 1, and minimum troops is 2. It doesn't say 2 FOC. It says 'this is how many of each you can take'.
> 
> This is the problem with taking small sections out of context. Besides, I doubt that's lifted straight from the book, as the book would not use the words "6th edition"



Beast and Cav get 12inch move, then the fleet rule allows them to either reroll the run or reroll the 2d6 assault. If you run you can't assault. Beasts ignore terrain, Cav treat it as difficult.


----------



## scscofield

SilverTabby said:


> Then take down that table. It's misleading and not from the book :wink:


I agree and have been stating it was misleading since it was put up.


----------



## pantat

Madden said:


> Anyone know about rending? And the jumpers hammer attack does it use there weapon bonuses (power/rend etc)? Thanks


I believe that it is like a kick or a shoulder barge or an elbow to the face or something and it is at base strength and ap-. Don't take my word for it, but that's what I think it *should* be


----------



## scscofield

you get 1 auto hit at your base S at I 10 when assaulting with jump inf. you roll, i can be 12 or can be 2. 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/c5545f8


----------



## pantat

scscofield said:


> you get 1 auto hit at your base S at I 10 when assaulting with jump inf. *you roll, i can be 12 or can be 2. *
> 
> http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/vj64o/im_sitting_here_with_a_new_40k_rulebook_ama/c5545f8


What does that even mean? The first part was what I gathered but have no clue what the 12 or 2 is


----------



## scscofield

All units assault is now 2d6 in the assault phase instead of 6 inches.


----------



## Synack

pantat said:


> What does that even mean? The first part was what I gathered but have no clue what the 12 or 2 is


2d6: min of 2, max of 12


----------



## pantat

Synack said:


> 2d6: min of 2, max of 12


OH! That means the range of the assault! I thought it was the strength or the save or I had no idea. Worded terribly!


----------



## pantat

scscofield said:


> All units assault is now 2d6 in the assault phase instead of 6 inches.


Yeah I knew that, just didn't quite understand the way it was reading. Been a long day already....


----------



## Zion

Synack said:


> 2d6: min of 2, max of 12


Right but Fleet and Jump Infantry reroll their charge range meaning they make their charges more often. Of course those are just the ones we know about, we don't even know all the possibilities yet.



pantat said:


> I believe that it is like a kick or a shoulder barge or an elbow to the face or something and it is at base strength and ap-. Don't take my word for it, but that's what I think it *should* be


From what I've seen it's an I10 attack that hits at strength. It looks like Jump Infantry gets it, and the WD mentions that Dreadnoughts get the "Hammer of Wrath" too (which is what the guy on Reddit said the Impact Hits were called).


----------



## scscofield

The guy answering the questions is getting hammered by them so his responses can get garbled.


----------



## SilverTabby

I think he was saying the answer was badly worded and caused confusion :wink:

It doesn't help that the quotes we're getting from the chap who apparently has the book (see my sceptisism as there's nothing new in the answers) are written with terrible grammar, seemingly random and avoidingquestions on specific pages that he could be called on.

4.5 days to go.


----------



## scscofield

http://imgur.com/L3UMV

He has answered some of the page number questions


----------



## SilverTabby

Then we've not long to wait to see if he's BSing or not :wink: 

I still maintain my comments on grammar.


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> Epic for the first turn of shooting.... You can't Overwatch or Snapfire blast weapons. Your LF would die the moment something got in among them.


I don't see why every is getting so intense about snap fire and over watch. Sure ts gonna make a difference but at bs 1 it's not going to be a big deal

Also krak missiles are what you use anyways and they are not blast so that doesn't matter at all. 


Hey I have a question! I've heard that they nerfed night fighting BIGTIME. Anyone have any info about this? Cause it would make a pretty big difference for my necrons.


----------



## scscofield

Want to say it was 36 inches you cant see them
24 inches the get +2 to cover
12 inches they have Stealth
It was in that link, im on my phone atm


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> Want to say it was 36 inches you cant see them
> 24 inches the get +2 to cover
> 12 inches they have Stealth
> It was in that link, im on my phone atm


Eek... That sucks alot. If tht ends up being true then search lights will make nightfighting beyond pointless. I'll have to figure out how to play without solar pulses.

One more ability that marines will be immune to I guess.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Then we've not long to wait to see if he's BSing or not :wink:
> 
> I still maintain my comments on grammar.


That's why it took me so long to rewrite everything to be legible and have it make some kind of actual sense. The people asking the questions didn't help either since they were pretty bad about using actual coherent questions and not re-asking things six or seven times.

EDIT: From the GW Blog page today :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dGMDh5q-K5I]

And once again I fail to embed this.


----------



## pantat

SilverTabby said:


> I think he was saying the answer was badly worded and caused confusion :wink:
> 
> It doesn't help that the quotes we're getting from the chap who apparently has the book (see my sceptisism as there's nothing new in the answers) are written with terrible grammar, seemingly random and avoidingquestions on specific pages that he could be called on.
> 
> 4.5 days to go.


Yes i was lol. I actually get my rulebook before the saturday so i'm sure i could answer questions too! Lol. But i bet loads will be in the same position!


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> That's why it took me so long to rewrite everything to be legible and have it make some kind of actual sense. The people asking the questions didn't help either since they were pretty bad about using actual coherent questions and not re-asking things six or seven times.


The occasional mis-spelling is one thing (if your browser doesn't correct it...) but when I see terrible grammer I just ignore it. I don't go around the decipher what people are trying to say but are to lazy to type. Have a friend that does that. Fine to talk to, but I can't read anything he types.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Karyudo-DS said:


> The occasional mis-spelling is one thing (if your browser doesn't correct it...) but when I see terrible grammer I just ignore it. I don't go around the? decipher what people are trying to say but are too lazy to type. Have a friend that does that. Fine to talk to, but I can't read anything he types.


Drives me crazy too


----------



## seermaster

how do fast skimers work, do they get jink .do they get jink if there a tank ie wave serpant falcon fire prism etc. can the eldar skimers upgrade to fly . can eldrad mix match with eldar telepathy divintion powers or does he get 4 of wich one he wants . i think it sais in any combination but does he keep one power as he has 5 and only generates 4 i no this is all eldar but from the snipets in white dwarf it seems there may be clarification in the book thanks


----------



## Zion

seermaster said:


> how do fast skimers work, do they get jink .do they get jink if there a tank ie wave serpant falcon fire prism etc. can the eldar skimers upgrade to fly . can eldrad mix match with eldar telepathy divintion powers or does he get 4 of wich one he wants . i think it sais in any combination but does he keep one power as he has 5 and only generates 4 i no this is all eldar but from the snipets in white dwarf it seems there may be clarification in the book thanks


Please learn to use full punctuation and capitals. I can only read so much Internet English at a time before my eyes start to bleed.

In order:
Fast skimmers can jink, but ONLY Fast skimmers. Currently there are no rumors that skimmers can be fliers. Eldrad can take the new powers but if he does he can't take the Eldar codex powers. He can use any combination of the powers FROM THE BRB that are available to the army, but NOT the BRB -and- the Codex. It's on or the other.

This really all has been covered in the long Q&A and several rumors.


----------



## mcmuffin

normtheunsavoury said:


> Drives me crazy too


Also worth noting that "Grammar" is spelt with an "a" not an "e"


----------



## seermaster

sorry if it had been covered but i hadnt seen it


----------



## Zion

seermaster said:


> sorry if it had been covered but i hadnt seen it


Trust me, as I've had to go through EVERYTHING (got to check for duplicates in the very least) at some point or another, it's all in there.:wink:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

mcmuffin said:


> Also worth noting that "Grammar" is spelt with an "a" not an "e"


Phone just didn't catch it like it usually does.


----------



## Zion

Karyudo-DS said:


> Phone just didn't catch it like it usually does.


I don't trust the phone very much since it can turn perfectly spelt words into basically anything but, and Firefox has a fairly good spell check but occasionally it needs words added (like "Bolter" or from above "spelt") to keep from turning everything into an ocean of red squiggles.


----------



## pantat

I just sorta do the whole proof-reading thing...:laugh::biggrin:


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> ...turning everything into an ocean of red squiggles.


But I like oceans... Either way, I have few options at work so there you have it.

We need more rules though as we seem to be slightly off topic


----------



## katfude

Oh man, adding a detachment of sacrifice-bunt anti-tank Tau to my orks is going to be histerical.

1 deep strike Helios commander

1 deep strike Helios 'ui

12 firewarriors to support boyz blobs with cover fire

2 broadsides, 1 with lock and 1 with target array and a couple drones with a knife

Who says orks don't have much AP1? :yahoo:


----------



## Words_of_Truth

My space marine defection to tau idea is quite possible now


----------



## Synack

Chaplin + DC in my GK army...


----------



## mcmuffin

Ordo Xeno Inquisitor with all of the grenades. 10 Purifiers and 3 acolytes with a chimera to compliment my SW


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Hmmm. Some Paladins to go well with my Deathwing perhaps (with Draigo of course)... :crazy:


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Has anything changed to skimmers?


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> Has anything changed to skimmers?


Hull Points and Fast Skimmers getting the Jink rule.



On another note, I'm not going to be surprised that Grey Knights can't ally with everyone as a friendly ally like it seems everyone hopes.

Besides there are more entertaining things to ally into armies. Kharn rolling around in a squad of Bloodletters anyone?


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Zion said:


> Besides there are more entertaining things to ally into armies. Kharn rolling around in a squad of Bloodletters anyone?


Bloodcrushers you mean


----------



## Zion

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Bloodcrushers you mean


It'd be awesome if he could ride one, but sadly not.

OH! Bloodletters in a Land Raider!

EDIT: From Faeit212


> Beasts, Nightfighting, and Warlords in 6th Edition
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a few more rules that are coming down from high above. Night Fighting possible in every game? Looks that way with nightfighting occuring on a 4+ round 1. (and you guys were worried that shooting armies would dominate).
> 
> The warlord charts are here, and right now I do not remember if you get to choose or you roll. It looks like you might choose a category, and then roll, but I do not recall hearing a definitive answer on this one.
> 
> via DJ3 and Rixitotal
> Beasts ignore cover completely for assault purposes. Beastmasters finally get to hit at I5-6
> 
> Night Fight changed completely:
> Every mission has Night Fight by default, but only on a 4+, including Turn 1. If it triggers, keep rolling each turn til it fails.
> cant shoot over 36. over 24 away have shrouded (+2 cover save), over 12 away have stealth.
> Night Vision now completely ignores Night Fight, as well.
> It's important to note that doesn't include Acute Senses (which is now just a re-roll for Outflank), so we're mostly talking about Dark Eldar.
> 
> As a Dark Eldar Player, I have these questions: How many hull points on: - Venom - Raider - Ravager - Razorwing/voidraven
> Has poison changed for shooting?
> How far can a flat out fast skimmer go? (basically an outline of how tanks move + how it affects their shooting)
> Can I move the raider 12" snap fire out with my passengers as im open topped and then flat out?
> all 3 except venom, thats 2 like vipers.
> 
> poison is the same.
> 
> fast is 6 fire all, 12 fire 2 at bs and the rest as snapshot. then can go 18 as a flatout if ure a fast skimmer.
> cant fire out if u go flatout, neither can troops inside.
> So passengers can fire 2 at BS and snapshot the rest if their open-topped transport moves 12"?
> Is 18 the farthest you can go, or can fast skimmers still do 24"?
> no, turbo boosting and flatout is done in the shooting phase instead of shooting, u still move first. so fast skimmers can go 30 in 1 turn, eldar jet bikes can go 48!!! and no that shooting is for the vehicle.
> 
> 
> You can move 6" after disembarking from a vehicle, even if the vehicle has moved at Combat Speed.
> This undoes the vast majority of the problems we encountered after learning you can no longer disembark from Cruising Speed vehicles, and means Trukk/Raider armies aren't crippled as we feared.
> The 2" disembark radius is gone, however, so those things are still slightly worse. You basically move 6" from the hull of the vehicle (or access point, where relevant).
> I should have stated it better, but I was assuming context of previous rumors--we heard earlier that you cannot disembark when going Cruising Speed, so obviously you cannot disembark when going faster. I'll edit to clarify for anyone that hadn't heard that.
> 
> Warlord Charts
> Command:
> 1. friendly units in 12 get to use your LD
> 2. enemy units in 12 use the lowest LD in their squad.
> 3. all friendly units in 12 get move through cover.
> 4. all friendly units in 12 may reroll running.
> 5. all friendly units in 12 re roll 1s to hit when shooting at an enemy within 3 of an objective.
> 6. all friendly units in 12 add 1 to charge distance.
> 
> Personal:
> 1. warlord and his unit get counter attack if in own deployment zone.
> 2. warlord and his unit get furious charge if in enemy deployment zone.
> 3. warlord and any unit he joins in deployment get outflank.
> 4. get 1 VP for each character killed by you warlord.
> 5. your warlord and his unit get FnP if within 3 of an objective.
> 6. your warlord is a scoring unit.
> 
> Strategic:
> 1. all your units get move though cover for ruins and stealth in ruins.
> 2. you amy have night fighting on the first turn.
> 3. your outflanking units get acute senses.
> 4. while he is alive you may reroll reserve rolls.
> 5. while he is alive your opponent get -1 on reserve rolls.
> 6. after both sides have deployed but before scouts you may redeploy 1 unit 3D6 inches, or 3 units D6 inches, may not leave deployment zone.


With how long the first post is (somewhere in the mid to upper 50K character range) I'm going to start working on a more condensed version on all of this. I hope to have it up later tonight.


----------



## SilverTabby

If we're looking at wacky combinations that shouldn't be allowed, how about *any* army with a DE Chronos tagged on? Pain tokens all round!


----------



## Necrosis

Dark Eldar Archon with Shadow Field + Eldar Farseer casting fortune on the Archon = Unstoppable Archon. He has a 2++ that he rerolls.


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Dark Eldar Archon with Shadow Field + Eldar Farseer casting fortune on the Archon = Unstoppable Archon. He has a 2++ that he rerolls.


Oh, I know a few people who would manage to consistently fail that save...


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Oh, I know a few people who would manage to consistently fail that save...


I know one guy who rolls like that so often that it's said that his mere presence curses your dice, and we named an award for taking dead last in a tournament after him!


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Are the Warlord abilities on top of the standard HQ special rules or are they a replacement like the Psyker rules?

So, playing BA with Dante, do I still get Surgical Strike and Tactical Precision as well as a Warlord ability or do I have to exchange them for a random roll?


----------



## XT-1984

Boon of Mutation ought to sort him out.

What I really want to know is if Flying Monsterous Creatures need 6s to Hit a Zooming Flyer. And vice versa.


----------



## Zion

normtheunsavoury said:


> Are the Warlord abilities on top of the standard HQ special rules or are they a replacement like the Psyker rules?
> 
> So, playing BA with Dante, do I still get Surgical Strike and Tactical Precision as well as a Warlord ability or do I have to exchange them for a random roll?


From what I've read it's an bonus rule. No word if Special Characters get these rolls or just Generic HQs.


----------



## Zion

XT-1984 said:


> Boon of Mutation ought to sort him out.
> 
> What I really want to know is if Flying Monsterous Creatures need 6s to Hit a Zooming Flyer. And vice versa.


I guess it'll come down to if the Flying Monstrous Creature's attacks are treated like close combat attacks (which wouldn't be allowed to hit a Zooming Flyer since you can't assault those) or shooting attacks (and if it's "allocated like shooting" do the attacks benefit from the Sky Fire rule?).

I'm guessing they count as close combat attacks but we'll see for sure in the near future.


----------



## Kelann08

Zion said:


> I guess it'll come down to if the Flying Monstrous Creature's attacks are treated like close combat attacks (which wouldn't be allowed to hit a Zooming Flyer since you can't assault those) or shooting attacks (and if it's "allocated like shooting" do the attacks benefit from the Sky Fire rule?).
> 
> I'm guessing they count as close combat attacks but we'll see for sure in the near future.


I smell a "declare dog fight" rule for just such an occasion...


----------



## Necrosis

Is Boon of Mutation a shooting attack? If so then I can just allocate it to another model using the "Look out sir" rule that is being added in 6th.


----------



## XT-1984

Necrosis said:


> Is Boon of Mutation a shooting attack? If so then I can just allocate it to another model using the "Look out sir" rule that is being added in 6th.


Ha thats a good point. At least that'd be one less 2++, or I'd have to wipe out his squad first.

As for the Flyers I was thinking of their ranged attacks, things like Bolt of Tzeentch or what ever guns the flying Hive Tyrant can have. 

I think if they need 6s the poor Tyranids are at a massive disadvantage against Flyers (even if they buy a Fortification with a gun with the Skyfire rule).


----------



## Zion

Just so no one misses it I'm also adding it here. I went through and turned the first post into a list of changes that we're seeing. If you spot something I missed let me know and I'll add it. Due to the space restrictions being hit last night I feel this is the best course of action now since we're no longer looking at when the edition will be coming out, but rather what is specifically in it.

These are not rumors from me (save for the Dreadnoughts getting Hammer of Wrath as I spotted that in the WD and hadn't seen it posted yet), just a consolidated list in an effort to cut down post size as the amount of information we're recieving is greatly exceeding the maximum character limit (I broke 60,000 characters last night and even after cleaning up the post and trimming it we were over 50,000 so this will hopefully help fix that). This is also an easier way to spot specific changes you're looking for (like vehicle rules or psychic powers for example as I keep seeing those come up).



> General
> Premeasuring is now in.
> Night Fighting can happen in any game (on a 4+) and if rolled will continue until the roll is failed at the start of a turn (Night Fighting limits weapon's max range to 36" with anything over 24" counting as "Shrouded" and getting a 2+ Cover Save. Any model over 12" away counts as having the Stealth USR)..
> 
> USRs
> Snap Fire - Fire weapons you wouldn't normally be able to fire at BS1 (heavy weapons, sponsons on a tank that has moved and fired it's main weapon....more information will be available on the exact details upon the release of the rulebook). Blast weapons may not snap fire.
> Acute Senses - Reroll Outflank.
> Night Vision - Ignore Night Fighting.
> Stealth - No Change.
> Rage - +2 Attacks on the charge, no movement penalties.
> Fear - (Currently Daemons of Chaos only but that is pending FAQ) Same as Fantasy. Leadership test to avoid being WS1. Units that are Fearless or have "And They Shall Know No Fear" are immune.
> Jink - Currently mentioned as a rule for Fast Skimmer and Jetbikes. Gives a 5+ Cover Save if the model moves at all, and a 4+ if it went flat out.
> Fleet - Allows you to reroll the run roll or the charge roll during a turn. No longer allows you to run AND assault in the same turn (as that'd give a unit with this rule a 24" threat bubble under the new rules).
> Hammer of Wrath - Single attack at I10, hitting at strength (no word of it auto-hits or if you have to roll to hit). Jump Infantry is said to have it, and the recent White Dwarf seems to imply Dreadnoughts may have it too.
> Zoom - a Flyer USR that keeps the flyer from ramming, tank shocking, being rammed, being tank shocked, must move 18" if at all possible, may turn up to 90* before moving, can move upwards to 36". It may still fire 4 weapons when moving at these speeds. If the flyer ends up moving off the table due to the Zoom rule it may roll to come back on the next turn.
> Sky Fire - Allows you to shoot at Flyers without penalties.
> Vector Strike - Flying Monstrous Creatures can attack models they fly over inflicting D3+1 hits at strength.
> Relentless - No Change.
> Fearless - Possible change to assaults: Fearless may no longer cause casualties from losing combat.
> Counter Attack - No Change.
> Feel no Pain - Now 5+ and is only prevented by Instant Death.
> Instant Death - No Change.
> Calvary - No movement penalties for difficult terrain, however it is now dangerous terrain (no word if this applies to the change to initiative for assaulting through cover though).
> Beasts - Ignore all penalties for moving through terrain (to include assaulting).
> Smash - Monstrous Creatures can use this to halve the number of attacks they make on a vehicle to strike at double strength (rumored that it may also let you reroll the penetration result as well).
> Preferred Enemy - Reroll all 1s for shooting and close combat (both to hit and to wound).
> 
> Weapons
> All Close Comabt weapons now have an AP value (ranging from - to 1)
> Power Weapons now have types with different rules and stats. Most commonly mentioned are the Power Sword (AP3, MAY give a 5++ Invunerable Save in Close Combat) and the Power Axe (+1S, AP2, Unwieldy). Other types like spears have been mentioned too. If the type of Power Weapon is not mentioned in the book or the FAQ/Errata then the type will be determined by what the model is actively equipped with.
> New Weapon USR(s): Unwieldy - Weapon strikes at I1; Rapid Fire - Always get 1 shot to full range or 2 shots at half range. Still can't assault after Rapid Firing; Salvo - Full number of shots at max range when stationary, 1/2 number of total shots at half range if moved.
> 
> Close Combat
> Assaults are no longer static charges. 2d6" assault range for all models.
> Multi-Assault (assaulting more than one unit with a single unit) no longer gives bonus attacks.
> Assaulting Through Cover - Roll 3D6 and discard the highest. Strike at I1 unless you have Assault Grenades.
> Overwatch - When charged units able to shoot may do so using the Snap Fire rules. Templates hit d3 times, blast weapons may not be fired. This can only be done once per unit per turn.
> 
> Shooting
> Shooting now only works against models the unit can see, with the enemy unit taking saves from closest to furthest, only pulling casualties as models fail their saves. This will likely slow games down, but should prevent other wound allocation cheese that occurs.
> Shots from Overwatch also allocate wounds this way and can prevent a unit from successfully being able to assualt due to taking enough wounds that the first rank doesn't reach the unit.
> Regardless of the number of hits actually made, you can only wound and kill models that are in range of your weapons.
> No Half Strength blast templates vs vehicles. Templates now do full strength hits regardless where the center hole is.
> Independent Characters and Snipers may allocate wounds to visible models in range with rolls of 6s to hit.
> Grenades may now be used as a shooting attack.
> Unit Leaders (example: Battle Sister Superior) and Independent Characters benefit from "Look Out Sir!" save versus shooting to prevent from taking wounds.
> 
> Vehicles
> Vehicle types now include: Tank, Flyer, Skimmer, Fast, Heavy, Transport, Walker, and Chariot. Vehicles may have more than one type.
> Fliers can only be shot on 6s by units that don't have the Sky Fire rule in addition to any rules they get for Hover or Zoom.
> Fliers may attempt to
> Heavy Vehicles work like the Monolith. They have a slow movement speed but can still function rather powerfully.
> All vehicles now have Hull Points.
> Disembarking can only be done if the vehicle moved 6" or less and must be placed within base contact with the access point and then moved upwards to 6" from the access point. No more 8"+ bubble from the access points when disembarking.
> Count as WS0 when Stationary and WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn.
> Unit counts as moving if the vehicle moves, and may only snap fire if the vehicle moves over 6" (up to 12").
> Flyers that explode after zooming in the previous turn inflict an S10 wound on all passengers (no armor saves allowed), and a S6 large blast under where it crashes.
> 
> Hull Points/Damaging Vehicles
> When a vehicle is glanced 1 Hull Point is removed for each successful glancing hit. When a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit a Hull Point is lost and then a roll on the vehicle damage chart is made (+1 for Open Topped, +1 for AP2 and +2 for AP1, no penalties for AP-): 1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4-5 Weapon Destroyed, 6 Explodes!). When all Hull Points are gone the vehicle becomes a wreck.
> Most vehicles have 3 Hull Points, however some have 4 (examples: Soul Grinder, Land Raider, Ghost Ark, Monolith) and others have 2 (examples: Vyper and Ork Buggies).
> 
> Cover
> Most things provide a 5+ (to include shooting through units, being inside of craters and being partially concealed) though Ruins give 4+. Vehicles and models now get cover saves if 25% of the model/unit is covered instead of 50%.
> 
> Psychic Powers
> Units within a certain range have a 6+ to nullify the power, Psychic Hoods improve this to a 4+.
> New generic powers are available to most armies with psykers as follows (names and what could be seen of full rules in the White Dwarf are listed below):
> Biomancy -
> Smite Range 12" - is a Witchfire
> Iron Arm -something about Toughness
> Enfeeble within 24" - suffers a -1, treats all terrain
> Endurance within 24" - gains the Fe (Feel no Pain?), special rule
> Life Leech Range 12" - If Life Leech, immediately, to his starting
> Warp Speed - Attacks (Roll
> 6. Haemorrhage - Haemorrhage is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 12". The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover save allowed. If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.
> 
> Divination -
> Prescience - within 12, can reroll
> Foreboding - this power is, Counter-attack, full Ballistic, this does not, Overwatch
> Forewarning - within 12", a 4+ invulnerable
> Endurance from Biomancy listed....
> Perfect Timing - have the Ig
> Precognition - Hit and To Wound
> 6. Scrier's Gaze - Scrier's Gaze is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll three dice and chose the result you want when rolling for Reserves, Outflank and mysterious terrain.
> 
> Pyromancy -
> Flame Breath - Template
> Fiery Form - +2 strength, Blaze special
> Fire Shield - within 24"
> Inferno - Range 24"
> 4. Spontaneous Combustion
> Sunburst - Range 6
> 6. Molten Beam - is a beam with the following profile Range 12" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta
> 
> Telekinesis -
> Assail - Range 18"
> Crush - is a f, Roll 2D6, equal to the, automatically, automatic, of a separate
> Gaze of Infinity - 24", Deep Strike
> 3. Objuration - a single enemy, rolls a 6, squadron)., with the H, for each).
> Shockwave - Range 12"
> Telekine Dome - within 12", invulnerable, power is in effect, AP equal
> 6. Vortex of Doom - is a witchfire power with the following profile: Range 12" S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast* If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psyhick test, centre the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Psyker - in this case, the template does not scatter.
> 
> Telepathy
> Psyhic Shriek - Roll 3D6, unit suffers, Armour and, caused by
> Dominte - within 24", must pass a, shoot, Run, action is fo
> Mental Fort(ification) - unit within, regroups
> Puppet Master - of 24", as if it was, the Psyker, players control
> Terrify - is a malediction, unit within, the Fearless, having the, Furthermore
> Invisibility - within 24", Stealth special, gain no benefit, don't see it, Skill 1
> 6. Hallucination - is a malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit).
> D6 Result
> 1-2 Bugs! I Hate Bugs! Something unspeakable has gotten under the victims armour and has begun to crawl around. The unit is automatically Pinned, unless it would normally automatically pass Pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
> 3-4 Ermmm? All sense of urgency is lost, and the befuddled warrior just stare listlessly into space. The unit cannot shoot, Run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
> 5-6 You! You're a Traitor! Paranoia set in and the panicked warriors lash out at thei comrades. Every model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on his own unit, resolved at that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any).
> 
> Generic Powers are taken based on availability determined by a chart in the Big Rule Book. If taken they are used in lieu of the powers listed in the codex. These powers don't replace powers the model automatically has (like Hammerhand).
> 
> Allies
> Perks/Penalties based on trust level between two armies. Some armies can't ally with certain other armies and Tyranids aren't allowed Allies.
> Can NOT ally with your own army to break the FOC.
> Allies require you to take 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice before taking any other options. May take an additional Troop Choice and up to 1 of any non-HQ choice from the Ally's army.
> 
> Fortifications
> Are bought as part of your army in a 0-1 Slot and count against your army's total points.
> Fortifications have Hull Points like vehicles.
> Can be upgraded (examples given: weapons with the Skyfire rule and Comm Units (give bonuses to reserves)).
> Include the Aegis Defense Line, Bastion, Skyshield Landing Pad and Fortress of Redemption.
> Must be deployed inside of your deployment zone.
> 
> Warlords
> New rule sets that add free bonuses to one of your HQs (the one with the highest LD cost, if tied player chooses) based on a die roll on one of the three tables available (no word if Special Characters can get these rolls or if it's limited to generic HQs only):
> Command:
> 1. friendly units in 12" get to use your LD
> 2. enemy units in 12" use the lowest LD in their squad.
> 3. all friendly units in 12" get move through cover.
> 4. all friendly units in 12" may reroll running.
> 5. all friendly units in 12" re roll 1s to hit when shooting at an enemy within 3 of an objective.
> 6. all friendly units in 12" add 1 to charge distance.
> 
> Personal:
> 1. warlord and his unit get counter attack if in own deployment zone.
> 2. warlord and his unit get furious charge if in enemy deployment zone.
> 3. warlord and any unit he joins in deployment get outflank.
> 4. get 1 VP for each character killed by you warlord.
> 5. your warlord and his unit get FnP if within 3" of an objective.
> 6. your warlord is a scoring unit.
> 
> Strategic:
> 1. all your units get move though cover for ruins and stealth in ruins.
> 2. you amy have night fighting on the first turn.
> 3. your outflanking units get acute senses.
> 4. while he is alive you may reroll reserve rolls.
> 5. while he is alive your opponent get -1 on reserve rolls.
> 6. after both sides have deployed but before scouts you may redeploy 1 unit 3D6", or 3 units D6", may not leave deployment zone.
> 
> Terrain
> Mysterious Terrain - Similiar to the Magic Terrain rules these are provided as a way to spice up the game when you enter them with effects varying from attacks against all the Psykers on the board to dangerous terrain to the terrain itself assaulting the unit inside.
> 
> Missions
> 3 Deployment Types - Pitched Battle, Short Table Edges (12" in) and a triangle shaped deployment that cuts the table into fourths, corner to corner style.
> 6 Scenarios with various objectives and situations.
> Secondary Objectives (add 1 VP) - Slay the Warlord (kill the enemy HQ (perhaps Warlord?)), First Blood (destroy an enemy unit, no word if vehicles will count), Linebreaker (having models in the enemy's deployment zone).
> 
> Monstrous Creatures
> All attacks are AP2.
> Gain Smash versus vehicles, lose 2D6 penetration rolls.
> 
> Misc
> Turn Order remains the same (Move->Shoot->Assault). No psychic phase.


----------



## Da Joka

Eleven said:


> i'm just hoping that warscythes count as power axes...


Why would you want to nerf the Warscythe like that??? Right now it doesn't slow you down, get's +2 str, and gets 2d6 armor Pen. All they need to do is make it AP2. It's closer to a Chainfist then a Power Axe.


----------



## paddlepop lion

Also warscythes are not power weapons, they ignore armour saves. This may be changed in the new rules who knows but RAW at the moment (lol i hope im the first to say that) they would get through terminator armour.


----------



## mcmuffin

paddlepop lion said:


> Also warscythes are not power weapons, they ignore armour saves. This may be changed in the new rules who knows but RAW at the moment (lol i hope im the first to say that) they would get through terminator armour.


Yep, pretty sure this is deliberate too, considering hyperphase swords are power weapons.


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## Karyudo-DS

Hrm... if fearless no longer causes wounds in CC and power weapons are AP3... my DW will likely spend most of their time punching things in the faces for great justice. :biggrin:


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## Eleven

Here's what I imagine will be the go to ally: farseer for psychic defense and fortune doom. Unit of rangers for allocatable ap 1 shots. Fire dragons in falcon optional.


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## Karyudo-DS

But but but...I like my bladestorms


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## scscofield

Eldar can only provide psychic bonuses to Tau and Dark Eldar since they are the only ones that have 'zomgzorsuperfriends' status. 
Someone also mentioned the Cronus giving pain tokens to everyone earlier, which is useless unless said unit has Power from Pain. 
The Warlord thing is your highest LDR hq is your Warlord. If you have multiple in that spot then it is a random roll to see which is the Warlord. You then choose one of the 3 charts and roll to see what bonus the Warlord gets.


----------



## Necrosis

I believe you choose your warlord if they have equal leadership.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So far I haven't seen a single thing I dislike about 6th....wtf? I was expecting it to be epic fail but I guess there is still time to mess it up. Thing I'm most curious about right now though is Vehicle Squadron rules, the WD mentioned it making vehicles more survivable (which is the opposite of what it did in 5th) and vehicles not blocking line of sight in squadrons. I really want my Penitent Engines to be worthwhile... So far they are looking half decent. Then again auto dead on a pen with an AP1 weapon with the current squadron rules (AP1=+2 to dmg table, Open Topped=+1, so if you roll a 1 it becomes a 4 which is Immobilized and vehicle dead with the current squadron rules).


----------



## Necrosis

I took a quick look at the rumored vehicle damage chart and their is no immobilize result.


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## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> So far I haven't seen a single thing I dislike about 6th....wtf? I was expecting it to be epic fail but I guess there is still time to mess it up.


Give it a chance! At least play it first before you give up hope.

Also yeah I thought I immobilized was omitted too, sort of would make some tech marine abilities useless I think. Though it could keep them in the fight more.


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## alex567

I have something I dislike about 6th Ed... The week I have to bloody wait for its its release.


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## Kelann08

Karyudo-DS said:


> Give it a chance! At least play it first before you give up hope.


He said he sees nothing he DISLIKES. That's a good thing. :grin:


----------



## clever handle

I believe immobilized is a 5 result on the pen table. Isn't it:

1-2: shaken
3: stunned
4: weapon
5: immobilized
6: explodes

that is what I saw posted most recently.


----------



## Necrosis

Going from page one, results of 4 and 5 is a weapon destroyed.


----------



## Eleven

MadCowCrazy said:


> Then again auto dead on a pen with an AP1 weapon with the current squadron rules (AP1=+2 to dmg table, Open Topped=+1, so if you roll a 1 it becomes a 4 which is Immobilized and vehicle dead with the current squadron rules).


heh, auto dead...that sucks.

Oh wait, a 4 on the new chart is weapon destroyed not immobilized. But still you will die on a 2+


----------



## normtheunsavoury

On a completely different tangent to the current discussion, is there anything new, different or revolutionary in the fluff that anyone knows about yet?

Please tell me the nonsense about the big E being dead and the Smurfs babysitting the Tau is a load of old tosh:ireful2:


----------



## Necrosis

Eleven said:


> heh, auto dead...that sucks.
> 
> Oh wait, a 4 on the new chart is weapon destroyed not immobilized. But still you will die on a 2+


We don't know if immoblize kills vechiles in squadrons anymore. They may have done it different now (perhaps it suffers a weapon destroyed).


normtheunsavoury said:


> On a completely different tangent to the current discussion, is there anything new, different or revolutionary in the fluff that anyone knows about yet?
> 
> Please tell me the nonsense about the big E being dead and the Smurfs babysitting the Tau is a load of old tosh:ireful2:


Big E has been dead for a long time just not fully dead. I doubt they would kill him off. That would have to many consequences (like no warp travel for the Imperium of Man). As for the Ultramarines babysitting Tau, that is true.


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> Eldar can only provide psychic bonuses to Tau and Dark Eldar since they are the only ones that have 'zomgzorsuperfriends' status.


So, are you just guessing here? I've heard several rumors about how the superfriends, kinda friends, and totally hated but still working together for no reason, levels work. however, I haven't seen any good rumors regarding this, so i'm still assuming you are just guessing here.

Even if it's not true, you could take a farseer for just the psychic defense and doom, or any of the new powers that will likely rock.




scscofield said:


> The Warlord thing is your highest LDR hq is your Warlord. If you have multiple in that spot then it is a random roll to see which is the Warlord. You then choose one of the 3 charts and roll to see what bonus the Warlord gets.


Jeez, I hope you are wrong on this one. How dumb would it be for us all if we couldn't even choose who is the leader of our army.

imagine if you were trying to play a fluffy army and the guy that was the general of your army in your story ended up not being the warlord of your army in the table top.

For instance if you had abadon in your army and then a random chaos lord and then the chaos lord was the warlord. lollers.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Kelann08 said:


> He said he sees nothing he DISLIKES. That's a good thing. :grin:


Oh I know, I'm just saying it might still be there!  Though so far a lot of these rules seem to make even my meager units more potent than before. Which seems like it could be fun, though whether it will be the same kind of fun or not remains to be seen. With as much as I know about it I'm still thinking it's going to at least feel weird at first. Granted if it helps a 1500 pt game finish in an hour...I guess that could be a good thing. Some of these rules I've toyed with in friendly games (before even seeing them rumored to be real) so some of this is welcome easily. I think.


----------



## scscofield

Eleven said:


> So, are you just guessing here? I've heard several rumors about how the superfriends, kinda friends, and totally hated but still working together for no reason, levels work. however, I haven't seen any good rumors regarding this, so i'm still assuming you are just guessing here.
> 
> Even if it's not true, you could take a farseer for just the psychic defense and doom, or any of the new powers that will likely rock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeez, I hope you are wrong on this one. How dumb would it be for us all if we couldn't even choose who is the leader of our army.
> 
> imagine if you were trying to play a fluffy army and the guy that was the general of your army in your story ended up not being the warlord of your army in the table top.
> 
> For instance if you had abadon in your army and then a random chaos lord and then the chaos lord was the warlord. lollers.


Everything I've said is based off that reddit post. It states only the highest level of ally can interact and only via IC crossfaction unit joining and psychic power buffs.

If you are running a fluff focused army I would be shocked if those you played didn't let you use the lower lrd dude. Especially since tge ability/perks have many based iff the model lrd and you would ve downgrading yourself.


----------



## Dicrel Seijin

Necrosis said:


> As for the Ultramarines babysitting Tau, that is true.


No, say it ain't so. :shok: I spent five or so minutes in ranting denial when my friend called me up yesterday asking about this.


----------



## Bclion

Has there been any mention of how vehicle squadrons work? More specific, Do damage results work like the new wound allocation? The first vehicle takes all damage until wrecked?

Thanks


----------



## pantat

MadCowCrazy said:


> So far I haven't seen a single thing I dislike about 6th....wtf? I was expecting it to be epic fail but I guess there is still time to mess it up. Thing I'm most curious about right now though is Vehicle Squadron rules, the WD mentioned it making vehicles more survivable (which is the opposite of what it did in 5th) and vehicles not blocking line of sight in squadrons. I really want my Penitent Engines to be worthwhile... So far they are looking half decent. Then again auto dead on a pen with an AP1 weapon with the current squadron rules (AP1=+2 to dmg table, Open Topped=+1, so if you roll a 1 it becomes a 4 which is Immobilized and vehicle dead with the current squadron rules).


For me, at first, it was the wound allocation of closest first. However, now that i've heard more about the supposed way it will work i think its actually better. Makes the game more realistic. Now my missile launcher who pokes his head out from the corner of a building will be the only one to die, instead of the other 4 guys just cowering behind it! And the ability to possibly postpone a nid or ork attack for a turn will cause a lol or two. 

Overall, i still maintain that i am incredibly excited about this edition. Lots of fancy new ad different stuff, sure. But potentially fun and hopefully makes it a little less boring than some 5th ed games became


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> If you are running a fluff focused army I would be shocked if those you played didn't let you use the lower lrd dude. Especially since tge ability/perks have many based iff the model lrd and you would ve downgrading yourself.


Well the way it looks now, you have to ignore some of the rules to play competitively, ignore some of the rules to play fluffy.

I'm just wondering, what do you think it adds to the game for the leader of your army to be random and not chosen by the player? That's what baffles me. He's already going to have a random possibly useless ability. (ability related to objective points in a KP game. Ability that makes you scoring when you are already inside a unit of troops, etc). I really don't see the advantage to a player not even knowing what his own army does, or even who the leader of it is until the game starts.


----------



## scscofield

Choosing your lrd is up to you, just because the warlord is maybe someone else means nothing. All these ppl saying they are going to ignore rules just because they dont like them is thier choice. I would be suprised if the same kind of rants didn't happen when the prior rulesets launched. I suggest yah relax and see how shit gies down.


----------



## pantat

Well i dont like paying rent when i play monopoly so next time i will be ignoring that rule.


----------



## Eleven

scscofield said:


> Choosing your lrd is up to you, just because the warlord is maybe someone else means nothing. All these ppl saying they are going to ignore rules just because they dont like them is thier choice. I would be suprised if the same kind of rants didn't happen when the prior rulesets launched. I suggest yah relax and see how shit gies down.


well, i think the edition overall is going to be good. It will probably be 6 months before we realize if they broke the game with allies or not, but that's impossible to tell without play testing.

The warlord being random is dumb because it could mean that in the game you would need to protect a character that you didn't really care about while sacrificing a character you intended to be the leader of your army because of the VP that it gives your enemy. It's dumb there's no doubt about it. GWS's boner for random and useless rules is strange at times.


----------



## scscofield

It is only random if you field a bunch of same ldr hq. If you are concerned about it just make sure this doesn't happen. Or if it's casual game just ask to use the one you want, rule of fun or whatever GW calls it.


----------



## pantat

Eleven said:


> well, i think the edition overall is going to be good. It will probably be 6 months before we realize if they broke the game with allies or not, but that's impossible to tell without play testing.
> 
> The warlord being random is dumb because it could mean that in the game you would need to protect a character that you didn't really care about while sacrificing a character you intended to be the leader of your army because of the VP that it gives your enemy. It's dumb there's no doubt about it. GWS's boner for random and useless rules is strange at times.





Zion said:


> Warlords
> New rule sets that add free bonuses to one of your HQs (the one with the highest LD cost, if tied player chooses) based on a die roll on one of the three tables available (no word if Special Characters can get these rolls or if it's limited to generic HQs only):


Pretty sure that implies its not random?


----------



## scscofield

Hmmm it does say that, I'm a fucktard. Sorry for causing yah stress about it Eleven.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Eleven said:


> heh, auto dead...that sucks.
> 
> Oh wait, a 4 on the new chart is weapon destroyed not immobilized. But still you will die on a 2+


Well, I guess it's neither an improvement or nerf as PEs currently die on a 2+ in a squadron. Biggest difference I can now control where they go... I really wish they could outflank.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Don't forget that you only roll on the chart for a PEN now. Glancing hits just remove hull points.

That should help survivability some.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Don't forget that you only roll on the chart for a PEN now. Glancing hits just remove hull points.
> 
> That should help survivability some.


Melta pens on 3+ on 2D6 if within half weapon range, basically 3+ 3+ to kill 1 PE which isn't that hard with Melta. Difference now is that I can avoid running straight at the melta toting dudes, problem is there are melta toting dudes everywhere :-/


----------



## khrone forever

Purge the Heretic said:


> Don't forget that you only roll on the chart for a PEN now. Glancing hits just remove hull points.
> 
> That should help survivability some.


how does that help survivability, you need 3 glancing hits to kill most tanks. 4 if its a monster like LR, monolith


----------



## Purge the Heretic

I was referring to squadroned penitents specifically. Along with leapfrogging shenanigans if the nearest model in a squadron is the always the one hit (This is the case with infantry), they should be able to get closer even without cover.

And they only need 25% concealment for cover now.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here are the Biomancy powers:

biomancy
caster gets D3 str and toughness
target unit get -1 str and toughness
target unit get FNP
assault 2 every unsaved would heals one off caster
pysker get +d3 init
target makes toughness test or take 1 wound no save, if slain jumps to model with in 2' and make save. continue till someone saves or no targets left


----------



## khrone forever

i hive tyrant using the FnP on a unit of 25-30 hormagaunts would be really fun :biggrin:


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> Pretty sure that implies its not random?


While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm not a source of fact on this as I just compile the rumors which could be wrong. Let's hope Warlords work that way though because dicing off between a bunch of them (like between Heralds and a Greater Daemon) would be silly.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

khrone forever said:


> i hive tyrant using the FnP on a unit of 25-30 hormagaunts would be really fun :biggrin:


How is this any different from a Tervigon doing it right now?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Update on the Powerweapons

Powersword: AP3

Poweraxe: +1S, AP2, I1

Powerfist: 2xS, AP2, I1

Chainfist: 2xS, AP2, I1, 2D6 vs. armor

Powermaul: +2S, AP4

Powerlance: +1S & AP3 on the charge, AP4 otherwise

Lightningclaw: AP3

Forceweapon: AP3


----------



## khrone forever

MadCowCrazy said:


> How is this any different from a Tervigon doing it right now?


you can do it on several things........maybe.......


----------



## Zion

Hey MMC are those Biomancy powers in order? I want to add them so the names line up with the effects if possible.

EDIT: My Superiors with their power mauls just got better. S5, AP4? Beats S3, even if the AP takes a nerf.

Double EDIT: Added the Power Weapon info to the first post.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Could power maul be considered a power hammer?


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> Could power maul be considered a power hammer?






Seeing as this is an actual model with a "Power Maul"? No.


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I'm not a source of fact on this as I just compile the rumors which could be wrong. Let's hope Warlords work that way though because dicing off between a bunch of them (like between Heralds and a Greater Daemon) would be silly.


Surely an army knows who its general is tho. Even in fantasy you pick your general dont you..? Marneus calgar isnt going to let a random librarian take the lead in an army is he? Lots of other examples. 



MadCowCrazy said:


> Update on the Powerweapons
> 
> Powersword: AP3
> 
> Poweraxe: +1S, AP2, I1
> 
> Powerfist: 2xS, AP2, I1
> 
> Chainfist: 2xS, AP2, I1, 2D6 vs. armor
> 
> Powermaul: +2S, AP4
> 
> Powerlance: +1S & AP3 on the charge, AP4 otherwise
> 
> Lightningclaw: AP3
> 
> Forceweapon: AP3


I still would like to know if you have to specifically pay for a power axe or if it just a power weapon that is an axe and you use the axe rules. Example from before, i used the axe from the sanguinary guard kit for a death company guy and was using it as a power weapon. Would it now count as a power axe or as a 'counts as power weapon' because deatg company cant specifically buy power axes, just power weapons. Also, would the glaive encarmine of aanguinary guard count as a power axe as they are two handed? 

I'm so totally spending a day locked away reading this rulebook inside out!


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> I still would like to know if you have to specifically pay for a power axe or if it just a power weapon that is an axe and you use the axe rules. Example from before, i used the axe from the sanguinary guard kit for a death company guy and was using it as a power weapon. Would it now count as a power axe or as a 'counts as power weapon' because deatg company cant specifically buy power axes, just power weapons. Also, would the glaive encarmine of aanguinary guard count as a power axe as they are two handed?
> 
> I'm so totally spending a day locked away reading this rulebook inside out!


From what I translated out of the Reddit posts were that there were going to be Erratas that would address the whole Power Axe/Power Sword thing, and in the end if it didn't, it'd come down to what was on the model. 

I think in some respects this could be a nerf to Frost Weapons since most of them are axes. I wonder if the Frost Weapon rule will stack with them being power weapons that are axes (for a total of +2S) or if it'll be capped (+1S).


----------



## Purge the Heretic

As the Sister's WD codex specifically mentions changing the weapon to a power sworrd, I'm a little worried about the coming errata. Though with the model avaliable???

Still, I may start changing some of those Eviscerators into morning stars. (I've put off my army update while I was deployed.)


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> From what I translated out of the Reddit posts were that there were going to be Erratas that would address the whole Power Axe/Power Sword thing, and in the end if it didn't, it'd come down to what was on the model.
> 
> I think in some respects this could be a nerf to Frost Weapons since most of them are axes. I wonder if the Frost Weapon rule will stack with them being power weapons that are axes (for a total of +2S) or if it'll be capped (+1S).


Yes I really hope the FAQs and Erratas come out simultaneously on the Saturday and that they are extensive enough to cover these issues. Sadly, they probably will still leave some gaps before the second FAQ update.

If it is WYSIWYG then I will get more sanguinary guard axes for my death company lol


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I'm making an Lord Commander Eidolon model for my Emperor's Children and he has a hammer, but I don't envisage him using a thunder hammer though, so I was wondering what it would be then?


----------



## Troublehalf

Can't wait for my Ultimate Edition to arrive.... God I love reading rule books.....


----------



## Purge the Heretic

So was the ultimate edition the same as the gamers edition in the US? (standard RB, satchel munitorium dice)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> Hey MMC are those Biomancy powers in order? I want to add them so the names line up with the effects if possible.


No idea, dude over at Dakka has the rulebook, I would assume he listed them in the order they appear in the rulebook.

Hmm, 3 Zoanthropes who trough some miracle got the same power and if they stack... T10 S10 Zoanthropes.... :crazy:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rulebook Allies Matrix


----------



## pantat

Guessing 'come the apocalypse' means cant ally? Looks same as the doubles matrix, unless im missing anything?


----------



## pantat

Guess that sort of answers the whole power sword/axe thing too


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Can't see the photos here at work. I get that the allies is the same, is there stats for all the weapons?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

All psychic powers

biomancy
primary power is a basic smite

caster gets D3 str and toughness
target unit get -1 str and toughness
target unit get FNP
assault 2 every unsaved would heals one off caster
pysker get +d3 init
target makes toughness test or take 1 wound no save, if slain jumps to model with in 2' and make save. continue till someone saves or no targets left


divination
primary target unit rerolls failed hits
psycher and unit gain counter attack and get full BS for overwatch
target unit gain 4++
target unit must reroll passed armor saves
psycher and unit ignore cover
psyker rerolls failed failed hits, wounds and armor saves
psyker roll 3 dicechoose the result you want when rolling for reserves, outflank and mysterious terrain

pyromancy
primary flame breath (flamer)
psyker gains 4+ invo
target unit gains 4+ cover save
flame attack assault 1, sould blaze (no idea) blast, ignore cover
target model takes 1 wound , no armor or cover save allowed, place small blast template anyone hit takes a str 4 ap 5 hit
assault 2d6, blind, ignore cover attack
str 8, ap 1 assault 1, melta

telekenisis
assault 1 str 6 . strikedown (halves init and target moves as if its dangerous terrain)
roll 2d6 target takes hit equal to strength (11 or 12 auto wound) ap is equal to seperate dice roll
remove models from table, deepstrike within 24 inchs of where they were
hostile unit must reroll hits and wounds of 6
assault D6 pinning attack
all friendlies with 12 inchs get 5++
str 10, heavy 1 blast

telepathy
primary 3d6 - target leadership wounds to target unit
target unit has to make leadership roll or do nothing
target freindly stops falling back and gets fearless
hostile model makes an attack as if it owned by psyker
target hostile losses fearless and treats all units as fear causing
invisibility gains shrouding and stealth, hostiles charged by this unit lose counter attack and fight at WS 1
roll on table 1-2 unit pinned, 3-4 cannot run, shoot or stirke blows 5-6 attack own unit


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Can't see the photos here at work. I get that the allies is the same, is there stats for all the weapons?


Just what we already know but now confirmed with the picture.

Force Sword S User, AP3, Melee, Force
Force Axe S +1, AP2, Melee, Force, Unwieldy
Force stave S +2, AP4, Melee, Concussive, Force

Lightning claws S User, AP3, Melee, Shred, Specialist Weapon


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Hope those melee weapons balance out. Buying a power weapon and now wysiwyg the type seems like a crap game mechanic so I would assume they tried. 

Come to think of it I do have some old axe bits around.


----------



## Hellgore

So where do NFW end up in this case? Unusual force weapons? So even Hammers would be AP3?


----------



## scscofield

Where is the thread you are getting this stuff from MCC?


----------



## Zion

Purge the Heretic said:


> As the Sister's WD codex specifically mentions changing the weapon to a power sworrd, I'm a little worried about the coming errata. Though with the model avaliable???
> 
> Still, I may start changing some of those Eviscerators into morning stars. (I've put off my army update while I was deployed.)


Current Sisters Erratta changes all references of a "Power Sword" to a "Power Weapon" so we'll see.

Eviscerators count as power fists that get an additional D6 armor pen, not as power weapons (I liked it better when they were Chainfists because it was easier to explain, but what are you going to do?).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

scscofield said:


> Where is the thread you are getting this stuff from MCC?


http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22683&page=13

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3180/456706.page#4446466


----------



## SilverTabby

Those were Force weapons, not Power weapons in that picture. 

As for WYSIWYG, once we've got the erratas and FAQs, if it says "what's on the model" I have soooo many old Imperial Force Axes, which with the blade cut off make perfect mauls too.....:biggrin:

As for "Come the Apocalypse", I'd imagine it's "we're on the same side, but given the chance I'll blow your heads off when the boss isn't looking". :wink: Battle Brothers means my Sisters army is back where it was in the WH days... Hooray! More Dinosaurs! And I may just make that third Penitent Engine now, too. Let's see if the FAQ for the Sisters puts the word "squadron" into their entry or not.


----------



## Zion

Compiled the previous Psychic Powers info (names, partial rules) with the rules MadCowCrazy found over on Dakka into the first post. They're incomplete, but it's giving us a better picture I think.


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> Those were Force weapons, not Power weapons in that picture.
> 
> As for WYSIWYG, once we've got the erratas and FAQs, if it says "what's on the model" I have soooo many old Imperial Force Axes, which with the blade cut off make perfect mauls too.....:biggrin:
> 
> As for "Come the Apocalypse", I'd imagine it's "we're on the same side, but given the chance I'll blow your heads off when the boss isn't looking". :wink: Battle Brothers means my Sisters army is back where it was in the WH days... Hooray! More Dinosaurs! And I may just make that third Penitent Engine now, too. Let's see if the FAQ for the Sisters puts the word "squadron" into their entry or not.


I presumed that come the apocalypse meant even if it were the apocalypse they still wouldn't ally.


----------



## LukeValantine

Lol my csm teminators have 3 power axes and 2 power mauls so really not sure what enemy type I am supposed to attack with them?.

Also this would be the perfect time fro GW to release a power/force weapon sprue...at 20-3- dollars a pop most likely.


----------



## scscofield

Fluffy rainbow farting unicorns of course!


----------



## Zion

LukeValantine said:


> Lol my csm teminators have 3 power axes and 2 power mauls so really not sure what enemy type I am supposed to attack with them?.


Tau naturally. Don't worry, they've got it coming.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Eleven said:


> I presumed that come the apocalypse meant even if it were the apocalypse they still wouldn't ally.


Or it could mean Apocalypse games only, which is how it is at the moment (I think?)


----------



## LukeValantine

At least with the change to AP my terminators could stand still and beat other units a lot longer with their various ap3-4 weapons. Hell almost all the GK weapons are AP3 (Honestly we all saw this one comming when you think of the implications of a entire army of AP2 weapons....why would anyone bring terminators to a force weapon fight?)


----------



## scscofield

Seriously though I wouldn't be shocked if a large part of the errata/faq updates for the codexs are weapon definitions.


----------



## Eleven

LukeValantine said:


> Lol my csm teminators have 3 power axes and 2 power mauls so really not sure what enemy type I am supposed to attack with them?.
> 
> Also this would be the perfect time fro GW to release a power/force weapon sprue...at 20-3- dollars a pop most likely.


I have this going on too. Power maul just makes me shake my head. Not a lot of circumstances that it would be preferable. 

Think about it, all the units that have 4+ armor have 3 toughness so the extra str is useless, except, that the cause instant death. So they deny fnp to toughness 3 while also striping their armor unless they are incubus or something. Seems like something you would take for de only.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> I have this going on too. Power maul just makes me shake my head. Not a lot of circumstances that it would be preferable.
> 
> Think about it, all the units that have 4+ armor have 3 toughness so the extra str is useless, except, that the cause instant death. So they deny fnp to toughness 3 while also striping their armor unless they are incubus or something. Seems like something you would take for de only.


Or with Sisters who have it as a model already and are S3 so the extra strength bonus is worth it, even if it doesn't instant gib Marines (it means T6 MCs will take wounds on 5s which is a big improvement for the Sisters over what they have now). Will it help Marines? No. But not EVERYTHING is written for those guys.


----------



## Da Joka

Hmmm I'm going to guess that Big Choppas will be "Power Mauls" Unless they make them full on power weapons... witch would be very nice


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> But not EVERYTHING is written for those guys.


You mean its not?! :shok::shok:


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> You mean its not?! :shok::shok:


Nope. Or else Dark Eldar wouldn't get access to Melta Lances but the Marines would. And all Marines would have a 1+++ Save that would be rerollable against everything and fire a large blast template at any range with no scatter.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> Or with Sisters who have it as a model already and are S3 so the extra strength bonus is worth it, even if it doesn't instant gib Marines (it means T6 MCs will take wounds on 5s which is a big improvement for the Sisters over what they have now). Will it help Marines? No. But not EVERYTHING is written for those guys.


I have to question in even in the hands of a sister

A 6 toughness mc with a 3+ save is going to be way easier to hurt with a sister with a power weapon than with a maul. If ts got a 2 plus you are doomed either way. 

Against a marine obviously the power weapon is better. The only difference is that with sisters it won't kill the fnp against de. So eh, heh.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Nope. Or else Dark Eldar wouldn't get access to Melta Lances but the Marines would. And all Marines would have a 1+++ Save that would be rerollable against everything and fire a large blast template at any range with no scatter.


See it seems like we're seeing things like that in the rules and since everyone here could give me the stats for a marine without looking it up it's easy to apply the "this is to good for them" mantra. I mean if I can swap out psyker powers, PWs are mostly AP2, and fearless no longer causes CC backlash then I can see trying some radical new builds/tactics with my Angels...

On the other hand a part me is thinking of the stats I don't have memorized that I'll be up against. There's plenty of scay units that aren't Marines or only in the last codex. People just don't always think about that because those two are easy scapegoats.

Hope the errata for this is at least mosty complete. Not sure why you would fix some pricing errors in a codex while leaving more blatant ones sitting there.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> I have to question in even in the hands of a sister
> 
> A 6 toughness mc with a 3+ save is going to be way easier to hurt with a sister with a power weapon than with a maul. If ts got a 2 plus you are doomed either way.
> 
> Against a marine obviously the power weapon is better. The only difference is that with sisters it won't kill the fnp against de. So eh, heh.


Just for fun running the Combat Calculator for a Battle Sister Superior locked in Combat with a WS3, T6, 3+ MC. No charges, just a straight comparison of how many wounds the Superior can inflict.

With the Power Weapon:
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.167
Unsaved Wounds: 0.167

With the Maul:
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.333
Saved Wounds: 0.222
Unsaved Wounds: 0.111

Yeah, the Maul is actually a little better because the hits that go through are a little more than twice as likely to inflict a wound, but has a the downside of giving the model a better chance of saving them.

Just for fun a Superior vs a Tactical Marine with the same loadout:

With the Power Weapon:
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.333
Unsaved Wounds: 0.333

With the Maul:
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.667
Saved Wounds: 0.444
Unsaved Wounds: 0.222

Again, more likely to wound (same chance of hitting), though we again see an increased chance of negating the wounds inflicted.

In the long run, if you're throwing large numbers of attacks/wounds against enemy models then it adds more wounds to the pile, but if you're relying on quality wounds that won't get saves then you might as well get a Power Sword. Either way they're roughly the same in the end it seems. The extra wounding power of the Maul is countered by it's lower chance of forcing wounds against T4+ models. Alternatively against T3 models you'll wound even more often because you'll wound on a 2+ instead of a 4+ so at that level it may prove to be a better choice.


----------



## CattleBruiser

Wait, if halberds count as power axes, does that mean grey knight termies with halberds are now init 3? or still init 6?


----------



## Zion

CattleBruiser said:


> Wait, if halberds count as power axes, does that mean grey knight termies with halberds are now init 3? or still init 6?


We'll have to wait to see their FAQ, but Nemesis Force Weapons might be the exception to the generic rules. After all Codex trumps Rulebook.


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> Nope. Or else Dark Eldar wouldn't get access to Melta Lances but the Marines would. And all Marines would have a 1+++ Save that would be rerollable against everything and fire a large blast template at any range with no scatter.


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Wrath

CattleBruiser said:


> Wait, if halberds count as power axes, does that mean grey knight termies with halberds are now init 3? or still init 6?


They are not axes. They fall under the unusual weapon heading. AP 3


----------



## Zion

Wrath said:


> They are not axes. They fall under the unusual weapon heading. AP 3


Is this a sure thing or opinion?


----------



## Wrath

Zion said:


> Is this a sure thing or opinion?


anything that has extra rules tacked on goes into the Unusual Weapons. Since it has a +2I <??> it just gets a AP3. Now the faq of course could change that.

I am pulling my info from the picture so I do not have the full story but it seems to read that way.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> Just for fun running the Combat Calculator for a Battle Sister Superior locked in Combat with a WS3, T6, 3+ MC. No charges, just a straight comparison of how many wounds the Superior can inflict.
> 
> With the Power Weapon:
> Hits: 1
> Wounds: 0.167
> Unsaved Wounds: 0.167
> 
> With the Maul:
> Hits: 1
> Wounds: 0.333
> Saved Wounds: 0.222
> Unsaved Wounds: 0.111
> 
> Yeah, the Maul is actually a little better because the hits that go through are a little more than twice as likely to inflict a wound, but has a the downside of giving the model a better chance of saving them.
> 
> Just for fun a Superior vs a Tactical Marine with the same loadout:
> 
> With the Power Weapon:
> Hits: 1
> Wounds: 0.333
> Unsaved Wounds: 0.333
> 
> With the Maul:
> Hits: 1
> Wounds: 0.667
> Saved Wounds: 0.444
> Unsaved Wounds: 0.222
> 
> Again, more likely to wound (same chance of hitting), though we again see an increased chance of negating the wounds inflicted.
> 
> In the long run, if you're throwing large numbers of attacks/wounds against enemy models then it adds more wounds to the pile, but if you're relying on quality wounds that won't get saves then you might as well get a Power Sword. Either way they're roughly the same in the end it seems. The extra wounding power of the Maul is countered by it's lower chance of forcing wounds against T4+ models. Alternatively against T3 models you'll wound even more often because you'll wound on a 2+ instead of a 4+ so at that level it may prove to be a better choice.


I'm confused. The data you just posted proves that the power weapon is better than the power maul against both Mcs and meq. 

Although the power mail will be better against both teq and 4+. But both will be weak against teq.


----------



## Drinkgasoline

This AP stuff for close combat seems awful.

Apparently the heroes of the Imperium such as Khan, Sicarius and Tigurius can't hurt a single terminator?

Lame.


----------



## SilverTabby

No, it make Terminators as hard as they should be. It's called Tactical Dreadnought Armour *for a reason*. 

And I hate marines, so don't benefit from these upgrades at all....


----------



## Madden

Deamon hammers are (at the moment) unusual force weapons so ap3 lol.


----------



## Necrosis

Grey Knight Weapons will probably get an FAQ.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Yeah terminators have always seemed poor to me simply because any bod with a power weapon can effectively negate their best defence and bring them to the level of a guardsmen.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> I'm confused. The data you just posted proves that the power weapon is better than the power maul against both Mcs and meq.
> 
> Although the power mail will be better against both teq and 4+. But both will be weak against teq.


The trend I saw from it was that the Power Sword would force wounds more easilly but have a harder time making the wounding rolls. The Power Maul would make wounding rolls more easilly but fail to make them stick on anything 3+ or better. Basically they're roughly equal, but I personally think the versatility of S5 in a squad trumps S3 (but then again I've seen that S3 weapon wiff a LOT so don't rely on it anyways).



Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah dreadnoughts have always seemed poor to me simply because any bod with a power weapon can effectively negate their best defence and bring them to the level of a guardsmen.


Do you mean Terminators (who wear Tactical Dreadnought armor) or Dreadnoughts (as in the big walkers)?

If you mean Terminators, massed shooting is the trick to do them in. Guard gunlines excel at this sort of defense because under the weight of enough fire the Terminators will fall, regardless if they're saving on a 2+, a 3++ or a 5++. Even with the new changes I see this as the way to handle them effectively: by filling the air will bullets. :biggrin:

On a seperate note Bell of Lost Souls put up an explination of the Ally rules:


> *The 4 Categories of Allies
> 
> Battle Brothers* - these allies are truly friends and benefit from each other's universal special rules, psychic powers, and everything, they act as one force.
> 
> *Allies of Convenience* - these allies will fight together if they have a common foe, they do not get to benefit from each others USR or powers, and in effect act as independent armies on the table.
> 
> *Desperate Allies* - these allies only fight in dire straights and gain no benefit from each other. you must roll a d6 if the roll is failed your allies do nothing for the turn as they are watching you for betrayal.
> *
> Not Before the Apocolypse* - these armies listed here can never be allies.
> 
> So, if you can ally, you get an allied detachment of:
> 
> *MANDATORY *
> - 1 HQ (not a Named IC)
> - 1 Troop
> * OPTIONAL*
> - 1 Troop
> - 1 Elite
> - 1 Fast Attack
> - 1 Heavy Support


And from Faeit212:


> *via the Video release from GW... Glimpses of the Rulebook Allies Page
> *_Units in your army treat allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targetted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed on them. However, if a psychic power, scatering blast weapon or ability that effects an area hits soem of these allies of convience they will be affected along with any friendly or enemy units._
> 
> _ Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied character_
> _ Cannot be joined by an allied Independent character_
> 
> Now that is directly from the video were we get to see the page of the rulebook. I am sure there are more rules we cannot see there.
> 
> This is what the rumors say
> *Battle Brothers:* Good can join each others units with IC's and cast psychic powers as if they were friendly.
> 
> *Allies of convienance:* Cant join units or cast friendly powers
> 
> *Desperate Allies:* Have to roll if within 6" of an allied unit. if they roll a 1, they cannot do anything.


Most armies were Allies of Convience from what I saw on that chart, so in the end it's the armies that pair up as Battle Brothers you need to look out for. 
Everyone else will not share rules or potentially sabotage itself by being allies with the other armies.


----------



## LukeValantine

Lets be honest terminators needed the buff and GK needed the nerf.


----------



## scscofield

Hmmm that thing from BoLS contradicts what the guy on Dakka Dakka posted and he has posted a picture of the rule book in front of the dakkadakka forum.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> Hmmm that thing from BoLS contradicts what the guy on Dakka Dakka posted and he has posted a picture of the rule book in front of the dakkadakka forum.


And that's why this is still a rumors thread and not a news thread regarding the upcoming rules and changes. 

There is still a lot of cross chatter that contradicts other things people post so rather than get frustrated about it, everything I see as a Schrodinger's rumor: it's both wrong and true until we see what the real thing looks like.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Zion said:


> Do you mean Terminators (who wear Tactical Dreadnought armor) or Dreadnoughts (as in the big walkers)?


Yeah Terminators sorry, someone was speaking to me and I wasn't focusing.


----------



## elmir

LukeValantine said:


> Lets be honest terminators needed the buff and GK needed the nerf.


How do you reckon the GKs are getting a nerf here? Terminators are getting a significant buff with these changes and GKs can pretty much switch to full termie armies... If anything, the powerweapon changes benefit GKs immensly! 

I don't think demonhammers are going to be AP3 btw... That just wouldn't make any sense. Halberds are still rockhard, you just can't use them to chew through terminators anymore, pretty much like powerswords. 

This is just a blanket nerf to powerweapons/NFW... but only against terminators. 

These changes can hardly be described as targeted GK-nerfs. In fact, GKs probably gain more from these changes then any other army (since terminators are troops).


----------



## LukeValantine

Yah 45+ pt troops that still die the same to massed fire, however as most of their terminators have force weapons and not power fists or axes I think we will find a lot of CSM and loyalist terminators kicking GK ass on a regular basis. So yah it was a nerf.

Also note that most GK builds have 1 DH in a squad so I really don't care if they have 2-4 attacks at AP2. Its not going to matter against a regular marine terminators 10-20 ap2 attacks (I expect to see a lot more GK players shunning halberds and the like for DH spam).


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## Zion

Odd question that just came to mind: anyone know why Crypteks are on the Psykers page on the GW site that MadCowCrazy linked?


----------



## elmir

LukeValantine said:


> Yah 45+ pt troops that still die the same to massed fire, however as most of their terminators have force weapons and not power fists or axes I think we will find a lot of CSM and loyalist terminators kicking GK ass on a regular basis. So yah it was a nerf.


Ah, in that matchup... Yeah, I don't think these changes will really make me switch to full hammer setups in favor of halbards.

But again, that's not a nerf that only affects GKs... It's more like "anything that previously had powerweapons standard is now going to get their face chewed off by Hammer/fist termies."

PS: GK termies are only 40 points, the only option that takes them over this value is nemesis falchions and that was the "derp" choice to begin with... 

If all nemesis weaponry is going to be AP3, GKs will be heavily gimped all round in AP. It's not like they have a lot of options to spam melta/plasma (coteaz lists excluded).


----------



## SilverTabby

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah terminators have always seemed poor to me simply because any bod with a power weapon can effectively negate their best defence and bring them to the level of a guardsmen.


All those johnny-come-lately's never experienced Terminators with a 3+ on 2D6 save. Even against lascannons they still got a 9+ save. *That* was how hard their armour should have stayed. Downside of switching to a 1D6 system. 

Even though as both 'nids and Sisters I'm really going to have a hard time with them, I love the buff. Now, if only they cost an appropriate amount too, instead of the same as my Warriors... :wink:


----------



## elmir

Is rending AP3 or AP2/1? That might make rending quite attractive compared to regular powerweapons if it's superior AP...


----------



## mcmuffin

elmir said:


> Ah, in that matchup... Yeah, I don't think these changes will really make me switch to full hammer setups in favor of halbards.
> 
> But again, that's not a nerf that only affects GKs... It's more like "anything that previously had powerweapons standard is now going to get their face chewed off by Hammer/fist termies."
> 
> PS: GK termies are only 40 points, the only option that takes them over this value is nemesis falchions and that was the "derp" choice to begin with...
> 
> If all nemesis weaponry is going to be AP3, GKs will be heavily gimped all round in AP. It's not like they have a lot of options to spam melta/plasma (coteaz lists excluded).


GKs dont need combat to kill terminators, stormbolters and psycannons fucking rape termies.


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> Odd question that just came to mind: anyone know why Crypteks are on the Psykers page on the GW site that MadCowCrazy linked?


I saw that yesterday and thought the exact same thing. Considering the white dwarf table says necrons cant take any of the new powers and have no actual psychic powers themselves it was very odd...


----------



## boreas

mcmuffin said:


> GKs dont need combat to kill terminators, stormbolters and psycannons fucking rape termies.


This. I will not have to adjust my list, I'll just have to change my targetting priority. Also, with LRs possibly more fragile (since they can be "eaten away" through multiple glancings), there's more chance that my opponent will have to walk the table. Oh, and if worse comes to worse, my vindicare (really, auto-added to all lists) can scrap that raider 50% of the time.

So, nerf to GKs? Yes, in a sense. Important? No...


----------



## Eleven

Glad to hear that te grudging allies get a crippling debuff. 

Now who is battle brothers with sang priests again?


----------



## pantat

Eleven said:


> Glad to hear that te grudging allies get a crippling debuff.
> 
> Now who is battle brothers with sang priests again?


Black templars, dark angels, imperial guard, space marines and space wolves. 

Altho i dont see y the sight of a blood chalice would help any of them get fnp but it seems they will... Deathwing will soon be added as allies lol


----------



## Eleven

I looked back thru the alliance chart. I'm thinking you will really only see battle brother alliances since they are te ones that will yield the brokest combinations. Maybe occasionally convenience. It's pretty poor form that csm only get daemons and not ig. 

I don't think it would have been a huge stretch to give chaos battle brothers with ig. Some of the ig abilities could have been useful. All I have to say is that the csm codex better stand pretty well on its own since space marine armies will be looking at 6 choices of godlike combos.


----------



## SilverTabby

elmir said:


> Is rending AP3 or AP2/1? That might make rending quite attractive compared to regular powerweapons if it's superior AP...


If they are going all-out fluffy with the new rules, rending should be AP2 at least, AP1 possibly. Reason? The one creature in the universe able to tear throughg Terminator armour and tanks like tissue paper is the Genestealer. Rending is how they do it. Every wound has a 1/6 chance of rending, rather than every wound with power weapons / fists / etc, so there's less chance of destroying a whole squad, but the cinematic image of one stealer on the back of one terminator tearing his head off is lovely, whilst the rest of the terminators see off his buddies. 

I think AP1, because that way it's useful against tanks too. And with 'nids not being able to ally to get more tank-busting, rending is the way forwards. Outside of nids, what other stuff has rending? 

Daemonettes, assault cannons, Retributors, what else? Would this (wistful) idea be a game-breaker?


----------



## seermaster

who are eldar's battle brothers
and harlies have rending witch still makes sense fluff wise


----------



## pantat

seermaster said:


> who are eldar's battle brothers
> and harlies have rending witch still makes sense fluff wise


Dark eldar and tau. 

Tau??


----------



## SilverTabby

pantat said:


> Dark eldar and tau.
> 
> Tau??


Young, interested in doing things for the greater good, likely easily convinced by Old and Knowledgable types that what they do *is* for the greater good, I'd imagine.


----------



## Madden

Praetorians have rending as well as entropic. On the nid hive it was mentioned that rending is ap2 +d3 against vehicles which is good as that's plus 1 on the damage chart, I'm wondering if there hammer attacks benefit from entropic strike, reduce armour befor things even start lovely.( but we'll probably have to wait a few days to find out).


----------



## pantat

SilverTabby said:


> Young, interested in doing things for the greater good, likely easily convinced by Old and Knowledgable types that what they do *is* for the greater good, I'd imagine.


Fair enough, good enough reason for me. 



Madden said:


> Praetorians have rending as well as entropic. On the nid hive it was mentioned that rending is ap2 +d3 against vehicles which is good as that's plus 1 on the damage chart, I'm wondering if there hammer attacks benefit from entropic strike, reduce armour befor things even start lovely.( but we'll probably have to wait a few days to find out).


I think rending should be ap2 instead of ap1 otherwise +2 on vehicle damage for a genestealer would be ridiculous even if it might fit fluff. Ap2 good enough i reckon and better than power weapons now. 

I dont think the hammer of wrath (?) on praetorians will get to be an entropic strike. Its more of them jumping onto the opponent from the air before trying to then attack them normally.


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> Fair enough, good enough reason for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I think rending should be ap2 instead of ap1 otherwise +2 on vehicle damage for a genestealer would be ridiculous even if it might fit fluff. Ap2 good enough i reckon and better than power weapons now.
> 
> I dont think the hammer of wrath (?) on praetorians will get to be an entropic strike. Its more of them jumping onto the opponent from the air before trying to then attack them normally.


Hammer of Wrath hasn't been seen in full yet outside of impact hits. And honestly, dropping in pointy weapon first on the enemy isn't a bad plan. It's how I'd land on someone if I was going that route. Either way the big book or FAQ should explain that in better detail.


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> Hammer of Wrath hasn't been seen in full yet outside of impact hits. And honestly, dropping in pointy weapon first on the enemy isn't a bad plan. It's how I'd land on someone if I was going that route. Either way the big book or FAQ should explain that in better detail.


Yes true, but thats why you get the +1A for charging i guess? And no that is just my assumption on how it works but they way i logically think they will do it. Then again, logic is absent from a lot of GW stuff....


----------



## Iron Angel

So if Power Weapons are going to be AP3, how the hell is anyone supposed to kill Terminators? They are now unkillable in CC and chances are you don't have enough AP2 weapons to wipe them out unless you're playing lascannon-heavy guard or something. The only AP2 or better weapons Necrons have are the Doomsday Cannon (Which was a termie wiper before anyway), Destructeks (Expensive and limited in number) And Heavy Destroyers (Also quite expensive, though PE is getting a buff). Yes yes Praetorians etc. But thats only their one shot. After that its charge or be charged and then their power weapons count for dick.

So, how the hell are you supposed to kill terminators now?


----------



## scscofield

Fastest way my termis always died was to masses of bolter fire. Forcing them to take saves over and over again leads to dead termies.


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## Iron Angel

I would always just wave warscythes at them until they died. TH/SS termies S8 counts for dick against t5 PS/WS/MSS lords. Now I can't even use MSS to make them kill themselves.

Or shoot them with the DD cannon. Entire unit of termies wiped with one shot is amazing.


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## scscofield

I am betting they will have errata and whatnot that will help control termy populations. Afterall they want to sell lots and lots of models not just termies.


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## scscofield

Hell with that whole focus fire then you can just swing your unit to the side so that something blocks most of them from sight. Then you can say well I focus fire on those two, make 25 saves.


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## Karyudo-DS

Yeah I've either been hit by Las or equivalent artillery of some sort or just massive swarms of small arms fire. They are harder to kill in CC but at range they're basically unchanged from the sound of it, just have distance and lots of guns.

Which is also my goto answer for everything!


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> Yes true, but thats why you get the +1A for charging i guess? And no that is just my assumption on how it works but they way i logically think they will do it. Then again, logic is absent from a lot of GW stuff....


Single (?) I10 Attack, MIGHT Auto-Hit, wounding rolls done at strength. Jump Infantry and at the very least SOME Dreadnoughts have it (or at least on GW employee's does?). Then everything else (to include regular attacks) happen in Initiative Order.


----------



## Iron Angel

I guess that will make praetorians usable against anything thats not a terminator, unless the Rod of COvenant is like the Warscythe in that it ignores armor altogether.

That said, my lords can still annihilate THSS termies, because the rules for the warscythe state it ignores armor completely. Suck it human filth!


----------



## Lash Machine

Check your new FAQ first.

With the way casulties are removed, improved shooting and more vulnerable vehicles I suspect the games at current points level are going to be quicker. by the looks of it there is no actual allocation of wounds like there is at the moment, just closest models being removed from those within weapon range. I am wondering whether the curent 1500 to 1750 points are going to morph into 2000 to 2500.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Iron Angel said:


> That said, my lords can still annihilate THSS termies, because the rules for the warscythe state it ignores armor completely. Suck it human filth!


Armor and invul saves?


----------



## MidnightSun

You still get your Invuln against Scythes. That's old rules, where they were held by Pariahs, with one attack Str 4 attack each and so needed that ability to be even worth thinking about, which they rarely were.

Midnight


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> Single (?) I10 Attack, MIGHT Auto-Hit, wounding rolls done at strength. Jump Infantry and at the very least SOME Dreadnoughts have it (or at least on GW employee's does?). Then everything else (to include regular attacks) happen in Initiative Order.


No i meant the jumping with a pointy stick is why you get +1 attack normally. Not that hammer of wrath is that. Anyway i'm going to try to stop talking about everything until i get my rulebook on thursday. :grin:


----------



## Synack

Found this on pastebin (don't ask). Seems like another pretty decent summary

http://pastebin.com/RuisVUYh


----------



## boreas

SilverTabby said:


> Daemonettes, assault cannons, Retributors, what else? Would this (wistful) idea be a game-breaker?


People will moan (more!) about psycannons :biggrin: Those now-unkillable paladins with 8 St7 rending shots? 8 shots, 6 hits, 1 rending (so penetrates a LR) +1 to damage? 

Phil


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> No i meant the jumping with a pointy stick is why you get +1 attack normally. Not that hammer of wrath is that. Anyway i'm going to try to stop talking about everything until i get my rulebook on thursday. :grin:


Hammer of Wrath is the Impact Hit rule. We don't have the full details if things like Entropic Strike (or Furious Charge, do you count as +1S on that hit or do you resolve using your base statline?) still apply to that if they do that.

From the Pastebin link:


> The only odd weapon with an AP is a ''heavy chainsword'' with AP 5


Eviscerators? Some kind of new toy?



> Walkers still move 6" and get Hammer of Wrath, a single auto hit attack at base S and AP-


Well that might be the answer to that then. Hammer of Wrath auto-hits, wounds as per base S and everyone gets their save against it. Base strength means we won't see Dreadnoughts doing this at S10 either.

I like the sound of a Defiler hitting enemy lines, getting an Impact hit, then a bunch more when their initiative step comes around.

Also Penitent Engines may have just gotten good. Free hit on the charge, then their attacks with a +2 for Rage. That looks positively awesome.



> Squadron rules are the same, and use the proximity wound allocation


Well no wound allocation nonsense I guess, but the question is how do you spread the results around for the pen rolls, or do they only apply to the first vehicle until it dies or explodes?



> 85.Monstrous Creatures
> 86.· No longer get 2D6 armor pen
> 87.· Get smash: AP2 and half attacks to double strength and reroll Armour pen results.
> 88.· Can be "shot down" during a Vector Strike. Getting shot down is 1 or more hits from a units shooting, and then rolling a 1or2 on a D6.
> 89.· Get Hammer of Wrath (the impact hit)


Impact Hits are a nice bonus for them.


----------



## pantat

Zion said:


> Hammer of Wrath is the Impact Hit rule. We don't have the full details if things like Entropic Strike (or Furious Charge, do you count as +1S on that hit or do you resolve using your base statline?) still apply to that if they do that.


No exactly why i want to stop speculating and assuming and trying to apply my own logic to how i think it will be. I will probably get confused over the rumours and the real thing now lol


----------



## Zion

pantat said:


> No exactly why i want to stop speculating and assuming and trying to apply my own logic to how i think it will be. I will probably get confused over the rumours and the real thing now lol


Or have a headstart on learning the rules! :biggrin:


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## TechPr1est

12 000 views for this thread and im the 340th replier but the 341st poster


----------



## Karyudo-DS

TechPr1est said:


> ...and im the 340th replier but the 341st poster


Purely amazing.

On another note I was just thinking about lighting claws... does anyone know for sure what "specialist weapon" means? A reroll to wound reference?


----------



## Styro-J

Specialist Weapon means the only way to get an extra attack via 2 ccw with it is to have another weapon like it. Just like Lightning Claws and Powerfists now.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Ah okay, makes sense. Thanks, I figured it was something simple like that with a new code-word.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Styro-J said:


> Specialist Weapon means the only way to get an extra attack via 2 ccw with it is to have another weapon like it. Just like Lightning Claws and Powerfists now.


I bet Orks look at their shoota and shoppa an think of them as specialists weapons...

Seems like a huge nerf to most xeno close combat units...


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I bet Orks look at their shoota and shoppa an think of them as specialists weapons...
> 
> Seems like a huge nerf to most xeno close combat units...


So far the only Specialist Weapons I've heard of are Lightning Claws and Powerfist (and one can assume Chainfists too) which need to be paired for bonus attacks. So where is the Xeno nerf exactly? I don't know of any Xeno weapons that require being taken in a paired set to gain the extra attack.


----------



## Jacobite

Why the hell anybody would give a unit power axes I don't know. AP2... good... +1S... yea goodish I1? WTF? so its basically a slightly better PS in terms of damage but its as slow as a TH or a PF? Who in their right minds is going to take a PA over a sword or a hammer? Its halfway between the two and crap.

Looks like my SG priests need to have their weapons replaced then.


----------



## Zion

Jacobite said:


> Why the hell anybody would give a unit power axes I don't know. AP2... good... +1S... yea goodish I1? WTF? so its basically a slightly better PS in terms of damage but its as slow as a TH or a PF? Who in their right minds is going to take a PA over a sword or a hammer? Its halfway between the two and crap.
> 
> Looks like my SG priests need to have their weapons replaced then.


I think a lot of this will come down to Erratta and points. Well that and preference.


----------



## Iron Angel

Karyudo-DS said:


> Armor and invul saves?


Oh, I know that. But the fact is that you're taken from 2+ to 3+, which is actually a massive difference when rolling saves. And considering exactly how many wounds I can force on you with a group of WS/MSS lords, considering you'll also be hitting yourself, that means THSS termies are still as good as dead. Phew.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> So far the only Specialist Weapons I've heard of are Lightning Claws and Powerfist (and one can assume Chainfists too) which need to be paired for bonus attacks. So where is the Xeno nerf exactly? I don't know of any Xeno weapons that require being taken in a paired set to gain the extra attack.


I think MCC may have been sarcastic. If they changed a couple lines of rules into "Specialist Weapon" they probably did it to save space and be able to apply it to other weapons. Overall though it doesn't really change much, just a simple rule reference.

And Xeno's have Powerfist counting weapons till Saturday at least. Though I don't remember any that let you buy them in pairs.



Iron Angel said:


> Oh, I know that. But the fact is that you're taken from 2+ to 3+, which is actually a massive difference when rolling saves.


Yep, sure can. +3 is still a good save, though in a bad game I lose entire +2 squads left and right anyway. Might be a good reason to use line of sight blocking cover though, in 5th Marines have been like Batman, safest in the middle of the mobs of thugs than anywhere else


----------



## pantat

The good news is that mephiston wont die in combat as easily now 

Personally i will probably be changing my death company to have axes instead of power swords as there are only a couple of them and the ap2 moght help them a bit. Although by removing the 'moving to the closest unit' thing i might not have to attack terminators with them anyway!


----------



## lobukia

Anyone seen what changes bikes will have in 6e. I've seen rumors, but with people having book in hand an posting all over the interweb, just wondering what do we know about bikes?


----------



## maddermax

lobukia said:


> Anyone seen what changes bikes will have in 6e. I've seen rumors, but with people having book in hand an posting all over the interweb, just wondering what do we know about bikes?


They can move 12" normally, terrain is dangerous as before. In the shooting phase they can turbo-boost, and move another 12" (or 24" for Jetbikes, 36" for eldar jetbikes) instead of shooting. I'm not sure about other changes to cover saves and whatnot however.


----------



## SilverTabby

TechPr1est said:


> 12 000 views for this thread and im the 340th replier but the 341st poster


On *this* thread? Or including the 2 50+ page threads that preceded it? And replies come after the first post, hence 341st poster.



maddermax said:


> They can move 12" normally, terrain is dangerous as before. In the shooting phase they can turbo-boost, and move another 12" (or 24" for Jetbikes, 36" for eldar jetbikes) instead of shooting. I'm not sure about other changes to cover saves and whatnot however.


Out of curiosity, are there any jetbikes that aren't Eldar other than Sammael?


----------



## pantat

SilverTabby said:


> Out of curiosity, are there any jetbikes that aren't Eldar other than Sammael?


Necron tomb blades spring to mind, but I don't know what else


----------



## scscofield

DE reavers and some Tau unit? (piranha?)


----------



## SilverTabby

Dark Eldar are Eldar. Clues in the name :wink:

Piranha are skimmers like Land Speeders, aren't they? And I'd forgotten Tomb Blades. My excuse is they're new ...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Zion said:


> So where is the Xeno nerf exactly?


I thought you needed 2 special weapons to get the +1 bonus attack for 2CCW. Meaning an Ork boy with a shoppa and slugga would not get an extra attack.
So having 2 regular CCW still gives you a bonus attack then I take it, same as it's always been?


----------



## SilverTabby

Wistful conjecture time. 

If the rumour that AP 4-6 is now gone from shooting is true, (which makes footsloggers more survivable) and the AP system being introduced for CC (which makes sense, it's easier to place an armourbusting blow up close), it balances things out very nicely. Shooting has been the dominant force for at least 2 editions now, to the point where CC is largely either won massively in the first round or a pointless waste of time where two sides flail ineffectually at each other all game.

Removing AP4-6 from shooting balances the fact that everything can shoot, all the time, and means the armies in flak or mesh don't just die to every shot that is vaguely aimed in their direction. Massively overcosted units like Shrikes suddenly become worth it. 

I really hope this is true.


----------



## khrone forever

and guard can be in the open :shok:


----------



## SilverTabby

MadCowCrazy said:


> I thought you needed 2 special weapons to get the +1 bonus attack for 2CCW. Meaning an Ork boy with a shoppa and slugga would not get an extra attack.
> So having 2 regular CCW still gives you a bonus attack then I take it, same as it's always been?


I believe the "only get +1 attack" came from paired weapons with the "specialist" special rule. Which makes sense, they're hard to use effectively. I very much doubt they'd remove +1 attack for 2 CC wpns. Though I do hope they reintroduce that heavy, if not basic, weapons mean you can't get that bonus. Chaos marines in particular annoy me with that. Where exactly are they putting that lascannon when they use boltpistol and close combat weapon?


----------



## misfratz

Jacobite said:


> Why the hell anybody would give a unit power axes I don't know. AP2... good... +1S... yea goodish I1? WTF? so its basically a slightly better PS in terms of damage but its as slow as a TH or a PF? Who in their right minds is going to take a PA over a sword or a hammer? Its halfway between the two and crap.
> 
> Looks like my SG priests need to have their weapons replaced then.


I will, because I prefer the look of an axe over a sword.

They also fill a tactical niche now that power swords are AP3 - they're strong enough to take out terminators, mega-armoured nobz, etc, while being a lot cheaper than power fists. That's a fair trade in my opinion.


----------



## SilverTabby

I *really* hope AP4-6 is gone in shooting, and that they haven't just made 1-3 the only ones that can bust tanks. That'll shut up those who say the game is just written for those in power armour.

KEEN! Where the hell is Saturday?


----------



## LukeValantine

SilverTabby said:


> I believe the "only get +1 attack" came from paired weapons with the "specialist" special rule. Which makes sense, they're hard to use effectively. I very much doubt they'd remove +1 attack for 2 CC wpns. Though I do hope they reintroduce that heavy, if not basic, weapons mean you can't get that bonus. Chaos marines in particular annoy me with that. Where exactly are they putting that lascannon when they use boltpistol and close combat weapon?


Your post concerns me as virtually no unit has 2 CCW's. Orks, CSM's and almost all other armies get the bonus attack from a pistol and CCW. Also logic would dictate that a Havok would just drop the laz cannon and grab his hip mounted pistol and a combat knife. Also taking that bonus from CSM's would ultimately make them just a poor mans marine with no rule to stop them from breaking from combat (Which I would accept if the new book makes CSM's 13pts each).

Also note that with the changes to shooting removing such a bonus would screw over armies like orks (Choppa and pistol) So much that even basic marines would stop them left and right.


----------



## misfratz

LukeValantine said:


> Your post concerns me as virtually no unit has 2 CCW's. Orks, CSM's and almost all other armies get the bonus attack from a pistol and CCW.


My understanding was that the current rules for pistols state that they can be used as a close combat weapon. Assuming that this stays the same then nothing has changed in the rules.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I thought you needed 2 special weapons to get the +1 bonus attack for 2CCW. Meaning an Ork boy with a shoppa and slugga would not get an extra attack.
> So having 2 regular CCW still gives you a bonus attack then I take it, same as it's always been?


I haven't heard anything on this either way to be honest, but I don't see why GW would change it honestly.



SilverTabby said:


> I believe the "only get +1 attack" came from paired weapons with the "specialist" special rule. Which makes sense, they're hard to use effectively. I very much doubt they'd remove +1 attack for 2 CC wpns. Though I do hope they reintroduce that heavy, if not basic, weapons mean you can't get that bonus. Chaos marines in particular annoy me with that. Where exactly are they putting that lascannon when they use boltpistol and close combat weapon?


They have a special pocket that let's them keep it in the Warp.



LukeValantine said:


> Your post concerns me as virtually no unit has 2 CCW's. Orks, CSM's and almost all other armies get the bonus attack from a pistol and CCW. Also logic would dictate that a Havok would just drop the laz cannon and grab his hip mounted pistol and a combat knife. Also taking that bonus from CSM's would ultimately make them just a poor mans marine with no rule to stop them from breaking from combat (Which I would accept if the new book makes CSM's 13pts each).
> 
> Also note that with the changes to shooting removing such a bonus would screw over armies like orks (Choppa and pistol) So much that even basic marines would stop them left and right.


Mistress of Repentia has two CCW, Death Company Dread has two CCW, Penitent Engine has two CCW, some HQ builds have two CCW (paticularly Xenos), just about everything Tyranid has two CCW and the bonus attacks are included in the profile, Defiler has two CCW and can get 4, Deff Dred has two CCW, Ironclad Dreads can have 2 CCW, Soul Grinder has two CCW...and that's just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head (and not including anything that uses a Pistol as a CCW).

If they get rid of paired CCW that'd screw a lot of things out there so I don't see it. And honestly I don't want to see the Pistol+CCW crowd get screwed but at the same time I don't really rely on that myself so I don't mind as much if that goes away.


----------



## SilverTabby

Pistols *are* close combat weapons. They are specifically stated as such, sorry if that caused confusion.

My point was that it used to be you'd only get +1A for having 2 CC weapons (including pistols) if you weren't carrying anything bigger. Basic weapons like lasguns and bolters took two hands to wield, and got in the way of fighting effectively. Heavy weapons most definately did. It's why marine sergeants has CC weapons instead of a bolter, it gave them 3 attacks rather than 1.

That way, the bonus attack was earned by those kitted out for close combat, not every marine in existence and their spikey cousins. 

Close combat bonuses for close combat troops only would be lovely.


----------



## LukeValantine

Regular marines only have a bolter and CCW so they don't get the bonus anyways, and as stated taking away the bonus for units with CCW, Bolt pistol, and bolter effects very few units besides CSM's as most have either a rapid fire weapon or a pistol. As stated taking away said bonus would make CMS's over priced by 1-2 pts across their entire army while doing little against most armies (Especially shooty armies that got a boast).

However this edition is such a change up that we will not know the extent of the impact in game for a month or so. Something as simple as overwatch may invalidate some army builds. Hell you may find armies that would be ruined by the loss of the CCW, pistol, bolter combo in light of the apparent potential for hordes of well thought out gaurd and tau armies to steam rolling MeQ lists. After all there are apparently well enough major changes without contemplating our own desires for the new edition.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Pistols *are* close combat weapons. They are specifically stated as such, sorry if that caused confusion.
> 
> My point was that it used to be you'd only get +1A for having 2 CC weapons (including pistols) if you weren't carrying anything bigger. Basic weapons like lasguns and bolters took two hands to wield, and got in the way of fighting effectively. Heavy weapons most definately did. It's why marine sergeants has CC weapons instead of a bolter, it gave them 3 attacks rather than 1.
> 
> That way, the bonus attack was earned by those kitted out for close combat, not every marine in existence and their spikey cousins.
> 
> Close combat bonuses for close combat troops only would be lovely.


Currently that combat bonus (in terms of Marines) is limited to Chaos Marines, Space Wolves, and any Marine who uses Bolt Pistols and CCWs exclusively. There aren't too many armies that use Bolter/Bolt Pistol/CCW.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Currently that combat bonus (in terms of Marines) is limited to Chaos Marines, Space Wolves, and any Marine who uses Bolt Pistols and CCWs exclusively. There aren't too many armies that use Bolter/Bolt Pistol/CCW.


Some vets can take a CCW+Pistol and then a storm bolter on top. Though I can't take a whole army of it. Strange to me that Chaos Havoks get them but they shouldn't be the same anyway.


----------



## SilverTabby

They've dropped the knife marines always used to have stashed in their pants? Shows how often I read my marine codex :wink: I could have sworn that was still in the massive list of everything Dark Angels got from Jervis...

And a nerf on CSM won't hurt them for the month before they get their new 'dex. It's very annoying when my tooled-up can-only-do-CC troops get less attacks than a basic spikey marine.


----------



## Sephyr

SilverTabby said:


> I *really* hope AP4-6 is gone in shooting, and that they haven't just made 1-3 the only ones that can bust tanks. That'll shut up those who say the game is just written for those in power armour.


Careful with that line of reasoning. If it's NOT true, will you be ready to admit that 40K has become a gravy train for Imperial MeQ armies? On the record? And dedicate your life to curb-stomping Mat Ward? :biggrin:


----------



## Zion

Sephyr said:


> Careful with that line of reasoning. If it's NOT true, will you be ready to admit that 40K has become a gravy train for Imperial MeQ armies? On the record? And dedicate your life to curb-stomping Mat Ward? :biggrin:


It's not as much as some people assume. Marines aren't impossible to kill, but because the Internet says they are everyone insists on playing Marines so they "stand a chance of winning". The Internet's meta isn't based on having a good time or a fun game but on busting heads so it's no surprise they insist that Marines are the only way to win (and by extension then Terminators MUST be better, and Terminators with psychic powers are EVEN BETTER THAN THAT so Grey Knights = Win according to the internet. That's why they were the most heavilly represented army in a recent even BoLS provided information on, but only one army made it into the final 8. (Necrons took 3 of those 8 places btw)).

If it hasn't been apparent in the past: I don't believe the Internet is right about the balance and power of most codexes. My balanced Sisters list has beaten Blood Angels of different builds at least 6 times alone. Could decent generalship and good dice rolls be a factor? Sure, but if the Internet was REALLY right my 2K Sisters list should NEVER win against any other army EVER. Especially not an AWESOME army of UBER Marines like the Blood Angels.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> They've dropped the knife marines always used to have stashed in their pants? Shows how often I read my marine codex :wink: I could have sworn that was still in the massive list of everything Dark Angels got from Jervis...
> 
> And a nerf on CSM won't hurt them for the month before they get their new 'dex. It's very annoying when my tooled-up can-only-do-CC troops get less attacks than a basic spikey marine.


You still get knives in the kits but they don't count it in addition to the bolter/bolt pistol. Only thing Dark Angels got from Jervis was the honor of being the beta balancing codex for C:SM so half the gear was overpriced and the other half gimped. Massive indeed, I think C:SM was ten times as long! 

But Choas Marines have the power of um...Chaos? Of course you don't usually charge into CC with Havoks. Though you might now. Though I know what you mean, it seems insane to attaca heavy weapon squad with a CC squad and still end up with fewer attacks. Of course it's not a huge deal since it might change soon.



Zion said:


> It's not as much as some people assume. Marines aren't impossible to kill, but because the Internet says they are everyone insists on playing Marines so they "stand a chance of winning". The Internet's meta isn't based on having a good time or a fun game but on busting heads so it's no surprise they insist that Marines are the only way to win (and by extension then Terminators MUST be better, and Terminators with psychic powers are EVEN BETTER THAN THAT so Grey Knights = Win according to the internet.
> 
> Sure, but if the Internet was REALLY right my 2K Sisters list should NEVER win against any other army EVER. Especially not an AWESOME army of UBER Marines like the Blood Angels.


Well the internet is right about some things Marines are generally a very forgiving army and generalist oriented in some aspects. You can shoot me and then assault and I could still will out. If you lose a dedicated CC unit before it gets into combat you might have a problem whereas a Marine squad can just try and wing it and have a have a chance at doing okay. Don't get me wrong. That doesn't by any means make them instant win though.

Far as the internet is concerned I don't think DA is supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with SM because of the abnormally slight point difference. Which is about right if you built a list like a basic Marine....and didn't use dice. My only complain is that RW only feel useful with DW in the army and it just feels like you have to have DW period otherwise you bought the wrong codex... But being severely outgunned is kinda fun!


----------



## seermaster

My gw manager told me that when u attack in cc with a pistol u use its ap this could make up for not getting extra attacks i suppos.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So plasma pistol attacks would be ap 3?


----------



## Zion

seermaster said:


> My gw manager told me that when u attack in cc with a pistol u use its ap this could make up for not getting extra attacks i suppos.


While this isn't possible this has only been detailed in the Pancake rules.



Words_of_Truth said:


> So plasma pistol attacks would be ap 3?


If the pistol rumor turns out to be true Plasma Pistol attacks would be AP2, and (unless it's been removed) still Get's Hot!


----------



## seermaster

what are the pankake rules


----------



## Zion

seermaster said:


> what are the pankake rules


The massive PDF document that was making rounds for a while. What it was later rumored to be was a large document that someone had compiled from a (or several) brainstorming sessions of the things the GW devs were considering to change. Some of the ideas made it into 6th edition, but most of them were killed off.


----------



## seermaster

so why isnt it possible


----------



## Zion

seermaster said:


> so why isnt it possible


I never said it wasn't possible, just that no one has mentioned it being in the actual rulebook.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well, the rulebook has arrived at the local store here. I can go get it but I think it's a waste of money as I'm going for the small rulebook from the starter instead and our club gets it's copy on friday. Was hoping I could go buy the clubs copy and get money for it on friday but nope. Ah well, guess I will have to wait until friday before I read it...


----------



## The Sturk

SilverTabby said:


> Wistful conjecture time.
> 
> If the rumour that AP 4-6 is now gone from shooting is true, (which makes footsloggers more survivable) and the AP system being introduced for CC (which makes sense, it's easier to place an armourbusting blow up close), it balances things out very nicely. Shooting has been the dominant force for at least 2 editions now, to the point where CC is largely either won massively in the first round or a pointless waste of time where two sides flail ineffectually at each other all game.
> 
> Removing AP4-6 from shooting balances the fact that everything can shoot, all the time, and means the armies in flak or mesh don't just die to every shot that is vaguely aimed in their direction. Massively overcosted units like Shrikes suddenly become worth it.
> 
> I really hope this is true.


I disagree. It doesn't make sense that guardsmen can all of the sudden shrug off Rocket Propelled, Uranium-Tipped, explosive bullets of a Bolter or the disintegrating power of a Gauss Flayer. 

Also, in terms to the Gauss Blaster, it's AP value is really the only thing that might make it worth using over the Tesla Carbine.

As much as it may balance a few things, it probably won't happen.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, the rulebook has arrived at the local store here. I can go get it but I think it's a waste of money as I'm going for the small rulebook from the starter instead and our club gets it's copy on friday. Was hoping I could go buy the clubs copy and get money for it on friday but nope. Ah well, guess I will have to wait until friday before I read it...


My FLGS likely won't get it until Thursday but I don't get paid until Friday so I won't be getting it until then either way. Our club is getting a copy as well (using a combination of club funds and donations to purchase it), but I know I'm going to want my own for pouring over. Plus I like looking at the pretty pictures and reading the fluff.

Thinking of 6th Edition, I'm hoping it turns out Sisters get their PDF on the release to help clarify some of the rules things that are still goody looking, and give them some nice 6th Ed based rules so they can continue to be awesome in 6th. Who knows, if they turn out to be decent outside of their metal boxes I may be looking more at using them as a foot or hybrid army rather than looking at jumping ship.

Either way I'll be looking to update my write up on Sisters once we see what they're getting (FAQ/New PDF/Boot To the Face) once I get that rulebook in hand.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I hate reading the BRB, it's too big, too much fluff and other shit thrown about the rules. The mini rulebook is to the point without all that extra stuff. I hate reading the codicies as well as the first paragraph is always allot of useless fluff for gaming purposes.

I prefer reading them in PDF format, that way I can quickly skip around the book to what I'm looking for. The only thing I use the rulebooks for is when I play, otherwise I use the PDFs.

Just went to the local store to have a look and guess what.... GW has sent us 6 copies of the 5E rulebook... even though it's not been possible to order it for about a month now. We have 6 more books incoming but they have the same IO numbers so we are guessing we will get another 6 5E books. That's 12 5E rulebooks GW will have sent us for last weeks rulebook order. How the hell can they fuck up that badly?!

Guess I will have to wait for the PDF as we wont be getting the rulebook for another 2 weeks...


----------



## mcmuffin

MadCowCrazy said:


> I hate reading the BRB, it's too big, too much fluff and other shit thrown about the rules. The mini rulebook is to the point without all that extra stuff. I hate reading the codicies as well as the first paragraph is always allot of useless fluff for gaming purposes.
> 
> I prefer reading them in PDF format, that way I can quickly skip around the book to what I'm looking for. The only thing I use the rulebooks for is when I play, otherwise I use the PDFs.
> 
> Just went to the local store to have a look and guess what.... GW has sent us 6 copies of the 5E rulebook... even though it's not been possible to order it for about a month now. We have 6 more books incoming but they have the same IO numbers so we are guessing we will get another 6 5E books. That's 12 5E rulebooks GW will have sent us for last weeks rulebook order. How the hell can they fuck up that badly?!
> 
> Guess I will have to wait for the PDF as we wont be getting the rulebook for another 2 weeks...


I'm convinced they should employ monkeys instead, probably would have a higher combined IQ than most of the staff


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> I hate reading the BRB, it's too big, too much fluff and other shit thrown about the rules. The mini rulebook is to the point without all that extra stuff. I hate reading the codicies as well as the first paragraph is always allot of useless fluff for gaming purposes.


I'm a dirty heretical monkey who enjoys reading fluff. It gives me a feel for the army/unit and why I should like them and what makes them different from Army X (outside of statlines and special rules. While those do a nice bit to differentiate between armies, if it wasn't for fluff all the Marines would basically be the same).

EDIT: Faeit212 posted up the summary from a Q&A they had last night with someone who has the rulebook. I've included it below. I'm reading through it and will include a list of the things we haven't seen mentioned yet.



> On Faeit 212 we had an all night QnA session with the new 6th edition rulebook, and it went off very well. It got a little cumbersome to read through as we went through well over 250 questions and answers, so I figured it was time to do a summary of what was gleaned through it.
> 
> I want to give a huge thanks, to anyone with the book that chimed in, and also to our "will remain anonymous" source who gave up a lot of time and effort to help us discover what is in the book. I know how hard that was, and I am sure his head was swimming after only a few short hours, and he went much longer than that. Great Stamina!
> 
> Please do not ask more questions here, this is for comments on what we learned already. If our source wants to do another QnA session, I will make one available for him. (same for other people with the book)
> 
> Here is the start of it.........
> 
> Flyers
> flyers can move at "zoom" speed and "hover" speed
> 
> zooming flyers can shoot up to four weapons at full BS if they move at combat/cruising speed. this is at ground targets
> shots shot at skimmers must be "snap shot" which are hit on 6s unless you have the "skyfire" special rule
> "skyfire": normal BS when shooting skimmers and flying MCs and skimmers snap shots against all other targets
> 
> MCs or jump infantry assaulting fliers. (I was sad when I read this  ) - in fact I can't even see a way for flying MCs to get skyfire so they aren't even more effective at shooting flyers !!!
> 
> flyer rules say that "a zooming flyer cannot be assaulted" so I will assume that they cannot
> 
> Template, vlast and large blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode"
> - I guess that solves that problem
> 
> the stormraven gunship is listed as a spacemarine vehicle in the appendix
> it is also listed as BS4 AV12 all round HP 3, flyer, hover, transport
> 
> "shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap shots"
> "If a model...snap shots...it's ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"
> (are you thinking marker lights to increase BS? If so I guess they would work along with any other BS boosting ability)
> 
> Fortifications
> fortifications are deployed after mission type and deployment type are chosen, but before other terrain is placed. Fortifications are placed on your table half (not deployment zone) more than 3" from another fortification, starting with the player who chose table halves. It is worded in such a way that implies in the future some armies may be able to take more than one fortification slot.....
> 
> there are a few fortification types mentioned, all are imperial, (however the video implied you can "loot" imperial buildings for xenos armies) and also it says - check future white dwarfs and our web site for rules for future fortification types
> 
> All the gw kits have rules ie bastion, fortress of redemption etc.
> Not faction specific. So build or modify your own tau or necron bastion as you see fit within commonsense "counts as" guidelines, of course.
> 
> the rulebook is remarkably silent as far as I have read on weather something is faction specific/build your own. All they have said is that more will be released in WD and on their web site)
> 
> Fortification listed in rulebook are:
> Aegis defense line, Skyshield landing pad, Imperial bastion, Fortress of Redemption. All with appropriate and interesting special rules
> 
> Monstrous Creatures
> confirmed MCs are AP2 (unless using AP1 weapon). can also perform "smash" attack - half attacks, double strength to maximum of 10. furthermore model making a smash attack can re-roll armour penetration rolls. Interestingly MCs no longer re-roll 2D6 armour penetration as far as I can see
> 
> on a related note (as I play nids) Furious charge is now +1S, but no I boost, and poison has been reworded to be "wound on a fixed number... unless a lower result would be required" so my trygons are dropping adrenals and taking up poisoned.... opposite of 5th
> 
> I do not see any way in which flying MCs/jump infantry can assault flyers unfortunately
> Flying MCs that make a "swoop" move (as oppose to a "glide" move - similar to zoom move, can fire up to two weapons as per normal
> 
> Are Flying MCs able to use their new "Vector Strike" against flyers/other vehicles? Also, does Vector Strike dole out AP2 wounds?
> YES!!!!! - so that's how flying MC's can hurt flyers!!!
> See this is good for me too, thanks Muninn, you're a thinker
> you make D3+1 hit, unmodified strength and AP 3 (not 2 ). against vehicles these are resolved against side armour. a model who has made a vector strike counts as having shot one weapon, however you can choose a different target for your other weapon in the shooting phase
> 
> winged MCs are not flyers, they are "flying MCs" which have their own rules
> 
> Assaults
> 2 phases; charge and fight
> resolve the charge phase for each unit before you move on to fight phase
> 
> charge phase:
> - pick a unit and declare unit it wishes to charge (also declare if multi-assaulting)
> - each enemy unit nominated can resolve Overwatch fire (only once per turn, Snap shot, cannot cause morale or pinning tests)
> - roll for range (usually 2D6 but theres a table for every different unit type)
> 
> Fight:
> - choose a combat to resolve ( the player whose turn it is decides)
> - declare a challenge (move models base to base)
> - starting at I10 and complete for each initiative step
> - Pile in moves
> - engaged models resolve attacks (roll to hit, roll to wound/armour penetration)
> - resolve a challenge
> - determine assault results - side that caused the least unsaved wounds loses. must take a morale check - no mention of fearless wounds - I believe it no longer exists - if losing side fails morale, then fall back and sweeping advance. If passes, continue on. If you cannot hurt the model you are in combat with you can elect to automatically fail morale check (fearless can't do this)
> - consolidate D6
> 
> overwatch are: once per turn per unit, can't do if locked in combat, can't cause morale/pinning tests, shots fired can only be snap shots (BS1). they must also follow all other rules for shooting (line of site, cover, etc) so there are no directional restrictions
> 
> Pistols do not provide any additional bonuses in CC.
> But taking the new "snap shot" rule into account, it could help in holding off an attack when you are being charged
> 
> Weapons
> Master crafted, reeroll one failed roll to hit per turn
> 
> gets hot will now give a vehicle a glancing hit on a to hit of one and a further role of 1, 2 or 3
> If a model has the ability to re-roll it only suffers a wound if the re-roll is also a 1.
> 
> 1. How are blast weapons fired. exactly as before
> 
> 2. for flyers:any model within suffers a S10 hit with no armour saves allowed
> "any models within suffer a S10 hit with no armour saves allowed"
> 
> for skimmers: no information listed under skimmer, will follow rules for normal transports I assume which are;unit suffers S4 AP- hits equal to number of models
> 
> 3. twin linked blasts: you may reroll the 2D6 and scatter dice
> twin linked templates: may reroll to wound and armour pen rolls
> 
> 4. To hit chart not changed
> 
> template and ordnance, blast cannot be fired as snap shots, any weapon that does not use ballistic skill (e.g. monolith portal) cannot be snap fired
> 
> Sniper weapons:
> rolls to hit of 6 are "precision shots" (you can choose how to allocate within unit)
> always wounds on a 4+
> Against vehicles sniper weapons are S3
> Sniper weapons also have pinning and rending
> So as I read max armour penetration is 3+D3=6
> 
> Melee Weapons
> if unspecified: S: user AP: -
> chainsword: S:user AP: -
> Eviscerator S: x2 AP:2 USR:armourbane(2D6 armour pen), two handed, unwieldly (I1 unless walker/MC)
> Heavy chainsword: S: +2 AP: 5 USR: two-handed
> choppa not mentiond mandrake weapon not mentioned - therefore uses codex rules unless "generic CC weapon" in which case as above
> 
> Wychblades
> S: User AP: - USR: Fleshbane(wounds on 2+), armourbane (2D6 armour penetration)
> 
> Lightning Claws
> S: user AP: 3 USR: shred (reroll wounds), specialist weapon (need to have another specialist weapon to get +1 attacks) - the way I read this you could give them a lightning claw and a thunder hammer and still get +1 attack
> 
> Relic Blades
> no mention of Relic Blades in the rulebook. As such they follow the rules in the codex I assume (I don't actually know the rules for relic blades off the top of my head)
> 
> a model fighting with this weapon never gains a bonus for having two weapons
> 
> No other generic bonuses/rules, although most two handed weapons have other bonuses specific to the weapon
> power klaw and power fist are identical despite different entries
> 
> Vehicles
> Heavy:
> can never move faster than combat speed, can't move flat out (6" max move - yes 6, not 12)
> for shooting, allways considered as having remained stationary (i.e. can move and shoot barrage, use full BS on all shots, etc...)
> 
> Chariot:
> move normally for a vehicle of their type, if skimmer, can also make sweep attacks (3+/4+ depending on speed, chance to deal a melee attack for each attack in profile to a unit that you pass over during movement i.e. can do a melee attack in movement phase then disapear before retaliation)
> 
> shot same as other vehicles, rider cannot be individually targeted
> can declare a charge - rider is considered to be in base to base with all models in base to base with the chariot, can strike and be struck as such, cannot be locked in combat, can't do a challenge
> +1 to armour saves
> crew is considered part of the chariot, can't attack, etc (basically ignored) Rider is fearless, can cause "Hammer of wrath" ->impact hit but gets D6 attacks resolved at S6 AP- (as oppose to 1 at user S)
> 
> Searchlights
> 1)searchlights used AFTER firing all weapons, can then choose to illuminate target, if so also illuminates self. Illumination lasts until the end of following turn. Illuminated units gain no benefit from night fighting special rule. (I assume this means that if a target is illuminated it doesn't get shrouded at 24-36" (+2 to cover save) or stealth at 12-24" (+1 cover save)
> 
> as a side note: extra armour gives crew stunned to crew shaken, not extra hull points. and vehicles are easier to hide (only need 25% of facing side to be obscured)
> 
> Flyers
> flyers can choose to use skyfire special rule at the start of shooting phase (i.e. normal BS for flyers, 6s for gorund)
> 
> standard: 6" combat, 12"cruising, 6" flat out (if a vehicle moves cruising can only snap fire, combat can fire single weapon at BS, others as snap shots)
> 
> Fast: 6" combat, 12" cruising, 12" flat out (combat speed can shoot as stationary, cruising can shoot two weapons at full BS and others as snap shot)
> 
> As Jink is a cover saver, yes it stacks with nightfighting
> 
> open topped vehicles: can be assaulted out of as in last edition
> 
> Bikes/Jump Infantry
> if you charge a model behind a barricade/aegis defense line, you must take a dangerous terrain test.
> Hammer of wrath (attack at I10 on charging), Jink(+5 cover if moving, 4+ if turbo boost), relentless
> bikes turbo boost 12", jetbikes 24", eldar jetbikes 36"
> otherwise no changes I believe
> 
> Bikes are still relentless and +1Toughness
> 
> Psychic Powers
> Beam psychic power type: choose a point within range. draw a line 1mm thick between that point and middle of psyker base. first model hit at full S. next model at S-1, etc. Buildings take a hit as if it were another model and beam still continues. ruins/wall reduce beam strength by one as if they had taken a hit and beam continues. Friends and foes can be struck by said beam
> 
> perils of the warp: double 1s or double 6s. 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed. double 1s still pass
> 
> no you do not. specifically states deny the witch does not work on force weapons. in addition deny the witch only works on offensive powers that target enemy units. Your enemy cannot deny the witch if the power targets your own squads.
> 
> as psychic hoods now only augment deny the witch by allowing all units within 6" take the psykers deny the witch roll, this means that augmentative psychic powers are AWESOME I reckon.
> 
> and on that note, alot of the "divination" powers are similar to the eldar powers, so you won't need to take eldrad as an ally to augment vect or anyone else for that matter....
> 
> "The Force USR (pg37) says they do, so long as the psyker expends a warp charge and passes a psychic test. No Deny the Witch saves vs this either.
> 
> USRs
> Relentless models shoot; heavy, salvo and ordnance weapons counting as stationary even if they moved. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fired heavy, ordnance, rapid fire and salvo
> 
> Instant death, much the same as before
> Eternal warrior ignores instant death
> No different levels of two abilities
> 
> FNP saves are taken after saves, invul included (so yes you can take both).
> FNP cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death but there are no restrictions for AP1-2 weapons
> Deepstrike mishaps are now 1: Destroyed, 2-3: misplaced, 4-6: delayed
> 
> Infiltrate
> set up the same
> "a unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn" --> bummer!!!!
> IC can join infiltrators during deployment and infiltrate with them (even if they do not have infiltrate)
> otherwise I believe it is the same
> 
> Acute senses: re roll if you arrive on a random table edge (outflank included)
> 
> outflank: I can't see any major changes
> 
> scout: infantry, artillery, walker and MC redeploy within 6", others redeploy within 12". Must remain 12" away from enemies. cannot charge in first turn. Otherwise the same (I believe)
> 
> Move through cover: role an extra D6 when rolling to move thorugh difficult terrain, pick the highest. Automatically pass dangerous terrain tests (!!) has no affect on charge or impact tests
> 
> as stated by others FNP does not work on force weapons as =instant death
> I cannot think of any ways that we can manipulate things pro tyranids yet (although trust me I'm thinking about it, they're my army!) - although the changes to dangerous terrain and night fighting are massive boosts for venomthropes (I can explain my thoughts more if you're interested )
> 
> Allies
> I have looked over it though and I can see no limitations on special characters named/independant or otherwise.
> 
> interestingly even battle brothers (best tupe) cannot embark in allied transports although they act as friendly/models of same army for practically everything else (i.e. IC joining and psychic powers)
> 
> If special characters can be used as allies? can you benefit from there special rules such as fateweaver letting you re-roll saves?
> 1) yes
> 2)if you are battle brothers yes, any other type of ally - no
> 
> Allies: one allied detachment per primary detachment (so at 2000 points where you can take two primary detachments, if you take a second primary detachment you can also take a second allied detachment, although as you can imagine this will chew up a lot of points)
> 
> There is no indication that this is not for normal games, so yes this is for standard games
> 
> Misc
> I have come across absolutely no indication of forgeworld except that some of the army pictures have forgeworld models
> 
> Wound allocation:
> choose the model closest to the firing unit. this model then takes a wound. if it passes it takes another wound, this continues until that model fails. his wounds are reduced by one. If this reduces his wounds to 0 he is removed as a casualty. you then pick the next closest model to the firing unit and repeat the process. This process is essentially the same if you have different armour saves/toughness/wargear/weapons. So it is the closest model that matters. So potentially one model could take 20 wounds for an entire squad - go space wolf terminator squad leaders...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think the sniper pen is wrong, it should be 3+6(+D3)= 9 (10-12 on Rend).


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Seems like what we thought we knew though thanks for the wound clarification. I was guessing you just put it on the first model. SW Terminators and Terminators with shields out in front! Which does actually look a bit more dramatic but looks good. Will have to get an early game in next week to try this stuff out.


----------



## Zion

List of new rules:

Monstrous Creatures are AP2, unless using an AP1 weapon (which means that at the very least some MCs have access to AP1 toys).

Furious Charge is +1S but no longer boosts Initiative. So now Furious Charging models will be hitting harder but not faster (Sorry Orks!).

Poison wounds on a fixed number (I'm guessing they mean universally) unless you need a lower result (so no more rerolls if you'd wound on 3s but Poison wounds on 4s, you'd just wound on 3s instead).

Flying MC's can Swoop (similiar to Zoom) and still fire twice while doing so. (I assume this will keep them from assaulting the turn they do it).

Vector Strike works against Flyers and will hit with AP3. You'll get D3+1 hits, using your unmodified strength against the side armor. Vector Strike counts as shooting one weapon and you can Vector Strike and then shoot two different targets.

Winged MCs don't count as Flyers and have their own rule set.

Different unit types may roll different numbers of dice to determine their charge range (standard is 2D6 but there is a table for all the unit types).

Fearless units can't elect to break from combat if they're locked in against a unit they can't hurt. 

Pistols will not give additional bonuses.

Vehicles using Plasma can suffer a Gets Hot! result if they roll a one, followed by a 1-3. This causes a glancing hit.

Weapons that don't use a BS (such as the Monolith Portal) can not be Snap Fired. (I assume this doesn't effect Flamers since they do D3 auto-hits instead).

Sniper weapons still have both pinning and rending and still wound on a 4+.

Some more weapons information:


> Melee Weapons
> if unspecified: S: user AP: -
> chainsword: S:user AP: -
> Eviscerator S: x2 AP:2 USR:armourbane(2D6 armour pen), two handed, unwieldly (I1 unless walker/MC)
> Heavy chainsword: S: +2 AP: 5 USR: two-handed
> choppa not mentiond mandrake weapon not mentioned - therefore uses codex rules unless "generic CC weapon" in which case as above.
> 
> Wychblades
> S: User AP: - USR: Fleshbane(wounds on 2+), armourbane (2D6 armour penetration)
> 
> Lightning Claws
> S: user AP: 3 USR: shred (reroll wounds), specialist weapon (need to have another specialist weapon to get +1 attacks)
> 
> Relic Blades
> No mention of Relic Blades in the rulebook.


 (I like this news here as Repentia will still annoy Terminators then if used correctly, and will continue to make a mess of Tactical Marine Squads ). 

Heavy and Chariot Vehicles explained:


> Heavy:
> can never move faster than combat speed, can't move flat out (6" max move - yes 6, not 12)
> for shooting, allways considered as having remained stationary (i.e. can move and shoot barrage, use full BS on all shots, etc...)
> 
> Chariot:
> move normally for a vehicle of their type, if skimmer, can also make sweep attacks (3+/4+ depending on speed, chance to deal a melee attack for each attack in profile to a unit that you pass over during movement i.e. can do a melee attack in movement phase then disapear before retaliation)
> 
> shot same as other vehicles, rider cannot be individually targeted
> can declare a charge - rider is considered to be in base to base with all models in base to base with the chariot, can strike and be struck as such, cannot be locked in combat, can't do a challenge
> +1 to armour saves
> crew is considered part of the chariot, can't attack, etc (basically ignored) Rider is fearless, can cause "Hammer of wrath" ->impact hit but gets D6 attacks resolved at S6 AP- (as oppose to 1 at user S)


Extra armor will not change, so no extra Hull Points for taking it.

Infiltrate will continue to work the same, and won't be able to charge 1st turn, even if they're in range.

ICs deployed with a squad of Infiltrators will benefit from the Infiltrate special rule.

Move Through Cover Ignores Dangerous Terrain.

Feel No Pain can't be taken against anything that causes Instant Death.

Allies can't use friendly transports, even if they are "Battle Brothers". (No Repentia in a Chimera then)

Apparently Special Characters CAN be used as Allies, but their rules only work on their own units or with armies that are Battle Brothers (so no Grand Master Grey Knight characters making Predator tanks scoring).

Allies are limited to 1 Detachment to FOC (so at 2K where you can get 2 FOC you can get a 2nd Allied detachment).

------

So yeah, even the summary of just the new stuff is long. There is something in there about Scouts but I couldn't make heads or tails what they were trying to say.

EDIT: I'm on my lunch break at the moment at work but I'll add these to the first post rollup when I get home this evening.


----------



## pantat

Looking good! Be amazingly funny to see a marine take 20 hits and pass 19 for a whole squad haha


----------



## mcmuffin

So, rune priests just got dumped in with all the other generic shit? wow. that blows. hoping psycannons will be FAQ'd to a salvo weapon


----------



## LukeValantine

Anyone notice the retarded shit possible with this wound allocation system? Look my marines and terminators now have a 2+ or 3+ inv save on the two guys at the front of the unit guess you are going to have to count on causing 12 or so wounds before my unit gives a damn about the AP of your guns. I see a lot of force stave duecebaggery from GK players in the near future.

Side note: Berzerkers now only have 2 attacks and no way to boast initiative. If the new book wasn't coming up soon I would seriously consider smashing them into plastic dust to cast more plasma guns for my chosen.


----------



## mcmuffin

LukeValantine said:


> Anyone notice the retarded shit possible with this wound allocation system? Look my marines and terminators now have a 2+ or 3+ inv save on the two guys at the front of the unit guess you are going to have to count on causing 12 or so wounds before my unit gives a damn about the AP of your guns. I see a lot of force stave duecebaggery from GK players in the near future.
> 
> Side note: Berzerkers now only have 2 attacks and no way to boast initiative. If the new book wasn't coming up soon I would seriously consider smashing them into plastic dust to cast more plasma guns for my chosen.


Warding stave only works in combat


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Wow, lookes like wyches got nerfed a LOT! No more bonus attack from pistols, fleet doesn't allow to charge after running and finally: overwatch. how for the webways sake are they supposed to even survive the incoming fire??? thats bulls*** :angry:


----------



## SilverTabby

Sephyr said:


> Careful with that line of reasoning. If it's NOT true, will you be ready to admit that 40K has become a gravy train for Imperial MeQ armies? On the record? And dedicate your life to curb-stomping Mat Ward? :biggrin:


Just because they haven't changed it so it's better for those not in power armour, doesn't mean it's *just* written for those who are. World's not black and white, sorry :wink:



The Sturk said:


> I disagree. It doesn't make sense that guardsmen can all of the sudden shrug off Rocket Propelled, Uranium-Tipped, explosive bullets of a Bolter or the disintegrating power of a Gauss Flayer.
> 
> Also, in terms to the Gauss Blaster, it's AP value is really the only thing that might make it worth using over the Tesla Carbine.
> 
> As much as it may balance a few things, it probably won't happen.


With shooting it's easier to see them exploding nearby and armour deflecting, etc, but you're likely right, which is why it was wistful. You've got to admit, for Dark Eldar, Orks, IG and most 'nids, they may as well come to battle naked for all the good their armour does them.


Zion said:


> My FLGS likely won't get it until Thursday but I don't get paid until Friday so I won't be getting it until then either way. Our club is getting a copy as well (using a combination of club funds and donations to purchase it), but I know I'm going to want my own for pouring over. Plus I like looking at the pretty pictures and reading the fluff.
> 
> Thinking of 6th Edition, I'm hoping it turns out Sisters get their PDF on the release to help clarify some of the rules things that are still goody looking, and give them some nice 6th Ed based rules so they can continue to be awesome in 6th. Who knows, if they turn out to be decent outside of their metal boxes I may be looking more at using them as a foot or hybrid army rather than looking at jumping ship.
> 
> Either way I'll be looking to update my write up on Sisters once we see what they're getti ng (FAQ/New PDF/Boot To the Face) once I get that rulebook in hand.


Sisters were written with the rulebook finished. Most we'll get is updated wording and adding in of rules that would otherwise have made people go "wtf?"


----------



## Necrosis

Akhara'Keth said:


> Wow, lookes like wyches got nerfed a LOT! No more bonus attack from pistols, fleet doesn't allow to charge after running and finally: overwatch. how for the webways sake are they supposed to even survive the incoming fire??? thats bulls*** :angry:


Actually I'm looking at the way the person worded the way he said it:
Pistols do not provide any *additional* bonuses in CC.
Now this may be wishful thinking on my part but I think the person is saying aside from the extra close combat attack they don't provide other bonuses. Such as using its strength or AP (which were rumored to do so).


----------



## LukeValantine

I hope so necrosis as this edition already looks like a shooting gallery with massive nerfs to most CC armies and troops all over the place.

Note: I really don't like the idea of guard,tau stopping superior orc or nid players just because of constant good rolls on over watch and bad rolls on charges.


----------



## Eleven

Necrosis said:


> Actually I'm looking at the way the person worded the way he said it:
> Pistols do not provide any *additional* bonuses in CC.
> Now this may be wishful thinking on my part but I think the person is saying aside from the extra close combat attack they don't provide other bonuses. Such as using its strength or AP (which were rumored to do so).


I thought this was a no brainier
Myself. 

They meant they they offer no advantages that they don't currently offer

I remember rumors about plasma pistols counting as power weapons.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Necrosis said:


> Actually I'm looking at the way the person worded the way he said it:
> Pistols do not provide any *additional* bonuses in CC.
> Now this may be wishful thinking on my part but I think the person is saying aside from the extra close combat attack they don't provide other bonuses. Such as using its strength or AP (which were rumored to do so).


Let's hope so :ireful2:


----------



## Eleven

I just realized that we will now have to roll all our saves 1 at a time. Lol. Can you shine how long it will take some players to do this. Ugh.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Sisters were written with the rulebook finished. Most we'll get is updated wording and adding in of rules that would otherwise have made people go "wtf?"


While I want to assume you're correct (and you likely are) I'm withholding judgement on this until I see what comes from all of this. Either way, like I mentioned, I'll be updating the old SoB write-up I've got for a newer one.

I do hope that if they do put out a new SoB codex that they specify if Penitent Engines just share the slot but act independent or if they're a Squadron (they don't get the Squadron USR but they don't specify as acting individually, while I don't use them I think it can be too easily argued either way to be definite without clarification). It's been my biggest headscratcher since the codex dropped.



Necrosis said:


> Actually I'm looking at the way the person worded the way he said it:
> Pistols do not provide any *additional* bonuses in CC.


Good catch. I wasn't paying attention the first time I read that. I've fixed it in the summary of new changes post.

EDIT:


Eleven said:


> I just realized that we will now have to roll all our saves 1 at a time. Lol. Can you shine how long it will take some players to do this. Ugh.


Units like Gaunts will be able to roll all at once and just pull from the front. There will likely be ways to do it faster. It's the mixed armor value squads that will likely cause problems since you won't be able to roll them all together and pull from the front until all the casualties are accounted for.


----------



## Necrosis

Eleven said:


> I just realized that we will now have to roll all our saves 1 at a time. Lol. Can you shine how long it will take some players to do this. Ugh.


Why would you roll all your saves one at a time? You would allocate the wounds, then remove the models that are closest to the shooting unit.


----------



## pantat

Necrosis said:


> Why would you roll all your saves one at a time? You would allocate the wounds, then remove the models that are closest to the shooting unit.


No it was something along the lines of you take all saves on the front model until he fails one then move on to the next. So if true, that would require rolling one at a time.


----------



## Necrosis

pantat said:


> No it was something along the lines of you take all saves on the front model until he fails one then move on to the next. So if true, that would require rolling one at a time.


I'm pretty sure I'm right and your wrong. GW has done some questionable things but I don't think they would do this as it would slow the game down so much. Also we have only gotten a single line from the wound allocation, now go and look at the 5th edition rule book and tell me how many pages their are explaining how to allocate shooting attacks.


----------



## mcmuffin

Necrosis said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm right and your wrong. GW has done some questionable things but I don't think they would do this as it would slow the game down so much. Also we have only gotten a single line from the wound allocation, now go and look at the 5th edition rule book and tell me how many pages their are explaining how to allocate shooting attacks.


This is from literally 3 pages ago. you are wrong.


> Wound allocation:
> choose the model closest to the firing unit. this model then takes a wound. if it passes it takes another wound, this continues until that model fails. his wounds are reduced by one. If this reduces his wounds to 0 he is removed as a casualty. you then pick the next closest model to the firing unit and repeat the process. This process is essentially the same if you have different armour saves/toughness/wargear/weapons. So it is the closest model that matters. So potentially one model could take 20 wounds for an entire squad - go space wolf terminator squad leaders...


----------



## Necrosis

Well that person probably misread the rule or something (or its for a multiwound unit who equipment is different).


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Actually, it seems reasonable to work this way. And really the only time you would have to take them one at a time would be in cases where a unit contains models with different armour saves. Like terminator Wolf Guard in Grey Hunter squads. All other times you would just roll all your saves and remove from the front. 

So it would actually, for the most part, be faster than in 5th.


----------



## Necrosis

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Actually, it seems reasonable to work this way. And really the only time you would have to take them one at a time would be in cases where a unit contains models with different armour saves. Like terminator Wolf Guard in Grey Hunter squads. All other times you would just roll all your saves and remove from the front.
> 
> So it would actually, for the most part, be faster than in 5th.


I was just stating to think about that. That actual does make sense. If you take 20 wounds on a 5 man unit who all have different equipment but the same save. You would roll it all at once and then remove the closes model to the furthest. The way the person explained it made it seem terrible.


----------



## Voss

I think I'm going to want to read that myself (even more than other things). One save at a time is pretty tedious, but it does produce a dramatically different effect.


The other thing I am doubting is no +1 attack for pistol/CCW (if I read that right). That doesn't make any sense at all- it is a major drop in ability for a lot of units, and some units in particular make little sense, particularly anyone who can choose between a rapid fire weapon and the pistol version. The stand out, of course, is ork slugga boys. They would be so inferior to shoota boyz, it isn't even amusing.

It would also mean that a great many 'combat specialist' units would drop to a single attack, and be no better than shooting specialists in close combat, and completely outclassed by other CC specialists that innately have multiple attacks.


----------



## pantat

I suppose for a squad of necron warriors then justroll at once. But even with a tactical squad with sergeant, special weapon and heavy then it might need individual rolling. Thats how i would interpret it.

Edit: Based on the current apparent rules above


----------



## Voss

pantat said:


> I suppose for a squad of necron warriors then justroll at once. But even with a tactical squad with sergeant, special weapon and heavy then it might need individual rolling. Thats how i would interpret it.
> 
> Edit: Based on the current apparent rules above


Dunno, personally. I thought the point of the 'remove closest' was that all the stuff about differentiating saves based on gear from 5th went out the window. Whichever model is closest just takes the wound (and usually dies), and you move through the unit, regardless of gear.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Is it me or is the Dark Angel found on the special edition of the rulebook (You can see him roughly 18 seconds into the video on page 1 of this thread) the same Dark Angel that has been slowly been revealed over the WD covers?


----------



## mcmuffin

Stephen_Newman said:


> Is it me or is the Dark Angel found on the special edition of the rulebook (You can see him roughly 18 seconds into the video on page 1 of this thread) the same Dark Angel that has been slowly been revealed over the WD covers?


Yes


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Stephen_Newman said:


> Is it me or is the Dark Angel found on the special edition of the rulebook (You can see him roughly 18 seconds into the video on page 1 of this thread) the same Dark Angel that has been slowly been revealed over the WD covers?


Azrael, yes. Good they used that art somewhere that will matter rather than just the WD spines.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Voss said:


> Dunno, personally. I thought the point of the 'remove closest' was that all the stuff about differentiating saves based on gear from 5th went out the window. Whichever model is closest just takes the wound (and usually dies), and you move through the unit, regardless of gear.


Which is what I assume. They are changing the allocation system to be that way because it's simpler, can't be abused (as easily it would seem) and is more "cinematic". If you still had to be concerned with eguipment (other than armour) it would just be even more complicated, weird and time consuming than it is now.


----------



## pantat

Voss said:


> Dunno, personally. I thought the point of the 'remove closest' was that all the stuff about differentiating saves based on gear from 5th went out the window. Whichever model is closest just takes the wound (and usually dies), and you move through the unit, regardless of gear.


Come to think of it they have the same save so yes, roll all and take off. It would be different for terminator assault squads with TH/SS and lightning claws being shot by lascannons. Then you put the shields atthe front


----------



## LukeValantine

Side note: Necron overlords are now one of the best bullet sponges for your army. It should only take around 85-100 bolter rounds before the enemy can hit my warriors. Then there is always the chance he will stand back up (This is assuming that you give him the 2+ save)


----------



## Karyudo-DS

pantat said:


> Come to think of it they have the same save so yes, roll all and take off. It would be different for terminator assault squads with TH/SS and lightning claws being shot by lascannons. Then you put the shields atthe front


My question though is if you have multiple saves how is THAT handled? I mean if you rolled all at once you'd end up with a bunch of rolsthat could kill the rest of the unit, but what if only one kills the unit that would have absorb the rest? Seems like single rolling would be the simple way to make sure those wounds either bounce or pass on to the next guy...

Of course I expect that to be clarified in the rules. Just hope its not based on average save...for SW and Exarch's.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

How many different saves are you likely to have in a single unit? 

If an IC has joined a unit and he is at the front roll for him, when he dies roll everyone else's.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

LukeValantine said:


> Side note: Necron overlords are now one of the best bullet sponges for your army. It should only take around 85-100 bolter rounds before the enemy can hit my warriors. Then there is always the chance he will stand back up (This is assuming that you give him the 2+ save)


How so?:shok:


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

LukeValantine said:


> Side note: Necron overlords are now one of the best bullet sponges for your army. It should only take around 85-100 bolter rounds before the enemy can hit my warriors. Then there is always the chance he will stand back up (This is assuming that you give him the 2+ save)


Indeed they are. Esecially if the unit has Chronometron-tek in it and the lord has a res orb. And if your opponent starts to las-cannon him to death you can just "Look out, sir!" all those nasty ap2 shots to the warriors. 
Maybe Necrons is the new black....


----------



## Voss

normtheunsavoury said:


> How many different saves are you likely to have in a single unit?
> 
> If an IC has joined a unit and he is at the front roll for him, when he dies roll everyone else's.


Depending on the incoming shots, and with battle brother allies... uh... 5? 6?

Example: BT crusader squad with initiates (3+) and neophytes (4+). Toss in the EC (doesn't count towards HQ units), a marshal in terminator armor (2+/5++) and another IC with a stormshield (3+/3++). Now toss in a Battle brother ally with yet another save configuration, and set up the unit with the ICs toward the front. 

This is suddenly a mess.


----------



## SilverTabby

Good grief, way to try and overcomplicate a simple system. 

From what I understand, any unit you roll saves. That many die, take from the front first regardless of equipment. Simple.

If you have something spangly at the front, which isn't going to happen often, like an IC or Exarch with an invulnerable, that's the only time you'd need to go one by one. 

Though to be honest: space marine character with 3+ followed by 5+ for whatever reason, in a tactical squad. 10 wounds caused: 2 saves made. Roll addition spangly 5+ 8 times: 2 saves made. Hey presto, there's enough failed wounds for your 3 wound captain to die, and then the remaining kill 3 marines. 

Doesn't seem too hard. Let's see how it's worded it the book, as that quoted post isn't direct from the book with that wording...


----------



## SilverTabby

Voss said:


> Depending on the incoming shots, and with battle brother allies... uh... 5? 6?
> 
> Example: BT crusader squad with initiates (3+) and neophytes (4+). Toss in the EC (doesn't count towards HQ units), a marshal in terminator armor (2+/5++) and another IC with a stormshield (3+/3++). Now toss in a Battle brother ally with yet another save configuration, and set up the unit with the ICs toward the front.
> 
> This is suddenly a mess.


Not really. Assuming those blokes are at the front:

Pick one. Roll all saves vs his save. Any excess over what is needed to kill him gets rerolled vs the next blokes save. Carry on until you run out of dice or blokes. If multiple the same have the same save, take multiple off. 

People are making this seem more complicated than it needs to be. Let's see how the wording is in the actual book before getting all het up. And as to the example above: if you don't want to have saves take forever, *don't build units like that*. 'tis your own fault :wink:


----------



## GrizBe

Tabby has pretty much pegged it I think. Just roll all the saves at once and start counting the number of failed saves starting closest to the shooter. Just cause you've got some 3+ and 4+ guys wouldn't mean the 3+ guy could take 30 shots while the 4+ could take 10. It just makes it more realistic at the end of the day that the guys in the line of the hail of bullets are gonna get killed before the guys at the back. 

Think about it... take 10 saves at 4+, say you average 6 saves.. so 4 wounds... in a 5 man squad you loose 4 of them. Add in the 3+ character and you make 7 saves, you only loose 2 guys and take a wound off the character. As said... more realisitc.


----------



## Voss

SilverTabby said:


> Not really. Assuming those blokes are at the front:
> 
> Pick one. Roll all saves vs his save. Any excess over what is needed to kill him gets rerolled vs the next blokes save. Carry on until you run out of dice or blokes. If multiple the same have the same save, take multiple off.
> 
> People are making this seem more complicated than it needs to be. Let's see how the wording is in the actual book before getting all het up. And as to the example above: if you don't want to have saves take forever, *don't build units like that*. 'tis your own fault :wink:



Actually, I was just answering 'how many saves could you have in a single unit,' I wouldn't actually put together a unit like that. 

But you're also oversimplifying a bit. If the 3+ and 4+ are alternated with each other (and the characters as well), you can't just take out batches, because 'closest' wouldn't be consistent, and you wouldn't know how many to remove until you've rolled the dice.

But basically, I think this new information from Faiet is inaccurate in some way. It doesn't really match up with earlier rumours, and it seems more problematic (in terms of time and exploiting the rules) than those initial rumours. We'll see how it actually is in a couple days.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

GrizBe said:


> Tabby has pretty much pegged it I think. Just roll all the saves at once and start counting the number of failed saves starting closest to the shooter. Just cause you've got some 3+ and 4+ guys wouldn't mean the 3+ guy could take 30 shots while the 4+ could take 10. It just makes it more realistic...


That's the thing though, do you roll everything that guy failed or everything the next guy would have failed too if the first dies? I never said it was complicated, just wondered how they set it up. I mean why take a wound that the first guy would save? Rerolling sort of makes sense as it wouldn't just blast through the first automatically but it could possibly do that.

That's why I want to see the wording. Seems like it must be simple but there are a few ways to do that.


----------



## GrizBe

Karyudo-DS said:


> That's the thing though, do you roll everything that guy failed or everything the next guy would have failed too if the first dies? I never said it was complicated, just wondered how they set it up. I mean why take a wound that the first guy would save? Rerolling sort of makes sense as it wouldn't just blast through the first automatically but it could possibly do that.
> 
> That's why I want to see the wording. Seems like it must be simple but there are a few ways to do that.



I understand where your comming from, but its just a fairer way of wound allocation. Instead of picking who died from failed saves, they're just taking out from the closest to the shooter first. You'd still have failed X many saves, its just who dies which has changed with the ruling.


----------



## The Sturk

LukeValantine said:


> Side note: Necron overlords are now one of the best bullet sponges for your army. It should only take around 85-100 bolter rounds before the enemy can hit my warriors. Then there is always the chance he will stand back up (This is assuming that you give him the 2+ save)


Yes indeed. Throw him an a Court with 2 more Necron Lords with the same save and you have one very hard-to-kill unit.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

GrizBe said:


> I understand where your comming from, but its just a fairer way of wound allocation. Instead of picking who died from failed saves, they're just taking out from the closest to the shooter first. You'd still have failed X many saves, its just who dies which has changed with the ruling.


Um...its just fairer? What is IT? I'm talking about dealing with different save values, not gear.

If the best save is in front or anywhere down the line it makes a difference when you get to them if they would fail or not if you went front to back. That's where I'm coming from. The front to back wounding doesn't bother me.


----------



## Nisditil

hmmm, sooo many new strategies come to mind now and many of the currently ones seem like they need lots of tweaking....


----------



## Eleven

Imagine this unit (a common one). 

Necron lord with weave, several lychguard, and a cryptek. 

You have 3 different save values in there. What if you had it even worse, two crypteks. 

You would be almost guaranteed to be rolling 1 dice at a time with this unit.

Closest to furthest is cool but they sure goofed this shit up a lot. It shouldn't be impossible for a guy in the back to get shot first. They Could have had allocation like before, but you have to allocate to the closest units first.

I have a feeling that the way they executed this will quickly garner as much hate as wound shenanigans did.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Imagine this unit (a common one).
> 
> Necron lord with weave, several lychguard, and a cryptek.
> 
> You have 3 different save values in there. What if you had it even worse, two crypteks.
> 
> You would be almost guaranteed to be rolling 1 dice at a time with this unit.
> 
> Closest to furthest is cool but they sure goofed this shit up a lot. It shouldn't be impossible for a guy in the back to get shot first. They Could have had allocation like before, but you have to allocate to the closest units first.
> 
> I have a feeling that the way they executed this will quickly garner as much hate as wound shenanigans did.


No matter what GW does people complain. I mean you're doing it right now about how they goofed it up. 

We complained that it was to hard to kill things because of Allocations so they made it easier and now we complain about that they made it easier to kill models. Full models will go first and no longer are multiple wounds or different equipment going to protect you from dying now. 

Model placement for units like Marines or Eldar with Exarchs will matter now and honestly I think it's a good thing. 

Sure it'll take a little longer to figure it out, but when dealing with weapons that AP you, you'll just pick up the models starting in the front. Specialist units will be the slowest to work out, but only if they have different saves.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Eleven said:


> You have 3 different save values in there. What if you had it even worse, two crypteks.
> 
> You would be almost guaranteed to be rolling 1 dice at a time with this unit.


I have a similar issue with DW now as they often end up all unique.

Problem is, that seems like it would slow things down if there were a lot of wounds. Sometimes there isn't so who knows. Seems like you could roll all of them on the closest type of wound and then if you come to another reroll the passed saves and give them a chance to either wound or do nothing...

I don't know. The concept of the system makes sense, it just seems tricky with these types of units. Granted I'm not terribly concerned till I see how it actually does deal with them. My point was just that I wanted to see that  As many times as it's been repeated there hasn't been any better detail on a lot of these rules. I guess that's to be expected.



Zion said:


> No matter what GW does people complain. I mean you're doing it right now about how they goofed it up.


I don't think they have, not yet. Though I just hope it doesn't cause a huge speed bump, I just want to know the details in that situation. I know I will run into it often.


----------



## The Sturk

I like the new Wound Allocation system. It just makes sense to me.

HOWEVER, I have a friend who has a comment/question about Tau Battlesuits and Shield Drones.

He usually keeps Shield Drones behind his battlesuits. Lets say a Lascannon hits and wounds the Battlesuit. The Battlesuit is unable to make the save, but the shield drone can.

Does the battlesuit die, effectively making shield drones worthless? OR will the save go to the drone as normal?


----------



## LukeValantine

They had to change the game eventually and although some things are a bit sketchy I think they could have done a lot worse. Despite my own reservations I am looking forward to trying the new system.

According to the system presented in this forum the wound would go on the drone> Just tell your firned to put his damn drone sin front from now on.


----------



## Zion

The Sturk said:


> I like the new Wound Allocation system. It just makes sense to me.
> 
> HOWEVER, I have a friend who has a comment/question about Tau Battlesuits and Shield Drones.
> 
> He usually keeps Shield Drones behind his battlesuits. Lets say a Lascannon hits and wounds the Battlesuit. The Battlesuit is unable to make the save, but the shield drone can.
> 
> Does the battlesuit die, effectively making shield drones worthless? OR will the save go to the drone as normal?


I'm willing to bet this will be covered in an FAQ or the main rule book but my guess is that if the IC is the one in front he'll be able to use a "Look Out Sir!" save to reallocate the wound to another model in the unit (in this case the Shield Drones).


----------



## scscofield

The Sturk said:


> I like the new Wound Allocation system. It just makes sense to me.
> 
> HOWEVER, I have a friend who has a comment/question about Tau Battlesuits and Shield Drones.
> 
> He usually keeps Shield Drones behind his battlesuits. Lets say a Lascannon hits and wounds the Battlesuit. The Battlesuit is unable to make the save, but the shield drone can.
> 
> Does the battlesuit die, effectively making shield drones worthless? OR will the save go to the drone as normal?


Simple fix to that is put the drone up front.


----------



## The Sturk

LukeValantine said:


> They had to change the game eventually and although some things are a bit sketchy I think they could have done a lot worse. Despite my own reservations I am looking forward to trying the new system.
> 
> According to the system presented in this forum the wound would go on the drone> Just tell your firned to put his damn drone sin front from now on.


Only problem with that is that the drone can die to standard fire, when he likes to save them for any AP3 or lower weapons.


----------



## Zion

Added in rumors from the post from earlier today as well the new stuff I could glean from this post from Faiet212 as well:



> via andyc over at Warseer
> Dark Eldar Raiders, Ravagers, Razorwings, and Voidravens have 3 hull points, Venoms have 2
> 
> Cover saves seem to be taken on a per model basis, so when you get shot you allocate the wounds how you wish, but the cover save is per model, not per unit. The model only needs to be 25% obscured to earn a cover save
> 
> You can choose to focus fire on a unit in which case you pick a cover save and the enemy can only allocate wounds against models with that cover save or worse.
> 
> Plasma grenades can be thrown
> 
> And they shall know no fear breaks all the rules with regard to fear checks, falling back, regrouping.
> 
> Characters are not only the independent characters but squad leaders, even monstrous creatures in some cases. All of these characters can issue a challenge and then subsequently be helped out by a stronger character with an intervention
> 
> Slow and purposeful simply move 6, but cannot run
> 
> Gargoyles are still jump infantry and subject to dangerous terrain tests, but also get skyhammer
> 
> In area terrain you get +2 to cover save
> 
> Random game lengths are in, same as 5th
> 
> Reserves are roll 3+ turn 2, 3+ turn 3, and auto enter turn 4
> 
> Nightfighting gets rolled for in turn 1 on a 4+. If it doesn't activate then you roll for it again turn 5
> 
> Bikes get the skyhammer rule, and get armour saves against failed dangerous terrain tests
> 
> Skilled rider gets you +1 to your cover save
> 
> Beasts can now climb levels
> 
> to hit chart and to wound chart is like 5th. You can't wound everything on 6's
> 
> challenges are made in the fight subphase
> issue a challenge like fantasy, only one challenge per combat phase
> nominate a guy to challenge
> nominate a guy to accept a challenge
> if you refuse the enemy can choose one of your characters not to attack this phase
> move the guys to base contact
> only only challenger and challenged can hit each other
> if you only have one character and the other character has a unit as well then there is a bonus reroll for every 5 'spectators'
> unsaved wounds add to the overall combat res
> they continue to fight, even if a space marine flees and is caught with ATSKNF
> glorious intervention allows you to switch characters with initiative test
> 
> How I understand it you decide at the beginning of your movement whether the flier is zooming or hovering. If zooming you then turn if you want and move however far you want. You then use those rules to decide what you can shoot and at what BS.
> 
> land raider is just tank and transport, no heavy (I was surprised at that)
> 
> only one character can attempt glorious intervention per turn but you can do the switch each turn
> 
> characters can do precision strikes and choose the model afflicted when they roll a 6 to hit. Independent characters get a 4+ lookout sir to take it on another model.
> 
> leman russ 3, ork battlewagon 4 hull points sentinel gets 2
> 
> exploded vehicle same as 5th str 3 hit d6 from vehicle
> 
> suspect vector strikes will get cover save as it is counted as shooting a weapon
> 
> bikes don't get the 3+ cover save but other than that not much changed. Can move 2d6 in assault phase, still +1 toughness, also get hammer impact hits, cannot go to ground, cannot be pinned. I have a marine biker army so have looked at the bikes quite a bit.
> 
> Singing spear (as it is in book) 12" str X AP6 ass 1
> 
> No entry for boneswords or lashwhips and so I expect them to be hit with the AP3 nerfbat
> 
> primary objectives are controlled now. one unit can only control one objective (massive change) control is being within 3"
> 
> troops are scoring units. vehicles are not scoring and cannot contest (unless stated by the mission)
> 
> swarms cannot contest (now called denial)
> 
> objectives can be mysterious and you roll on a table.
> 1 sabotaged str4 hits to whole unit,
> 2 nothing,
> 3 skyfire nexus, unit gets skyfire rule,
> 4 targeting relay, reroll1s when shooting,
> 5 scatterfield +1 coversave,
> 6 grav wave generator unit charging will halve charge range
> 
> move within 3" and then roll for it or use your spangly GW dice.
> one mission uses the objective dice to assign values to objecitves but you can create the markers yourself
> 
> No shining spear entry in book, laser lance is 6" range, st6ap6ass1
> 
> fast skimmer combat speed all weapons, cruising speed 2 weapon at full ballistic skill (yes, Venoms still great)
> normal vehicle can move 12" in movment phase and 6" in shooting phase flat out
> fast vehicles can move 12" in movement phase, and 12" in shooting phase flat out
> fast skimmers can move 12" in movement phase and 18" in shooting phase flat out
> 
> No parry rule
> 
> squadrons must stay within 4"
> individual models declare flat out moves
> shots at squadrons are resolved to nearest model first, one at a time
> when that model is destroyed move to the next nearest
> if a model is immobilised the rest can abandon it. The immobilised vehicle is then an indiviidual model (cool)
> if a model is stunned it can't be abandoned
> 
> A flyer that zooms has a combat speed of 18 and a crusing speed of 36. a zooming flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18
> 
> railgun is the same
> 
> you can roll a 6+ against a psychic attack on that unit to stop the attack
> if you have a psyker in the unit who has equal or less mastery level it is 5+
> if you have a psyker in the unit with higher mastery level it is 4+
> if you have a guy with psychic hood within 6" of the unit you can roll as if he were in the unit
> interestingly if the psyker is in a vehicle he can only help the vehicle
> 
> Units don't get cover anymore. Individual models roll for their individual cover save
> 
> rend has no change, although it is clarified as a to wound roll of 6 is AP2 and add d3 to strength against vehicles
> 
> I think force weapons are the same allbeit the power part is AP3. Activate the weapon with ld test and it causes ID. You will see more GK's activating force weapons, and DTW (Deny the Witch) rolls cannot be taken against them
> 
> allied battle brothers cannot embark allied transports.
> 
> They are AP-, get armourbane +2d6 Armour Penetration and fleshbane wound on 2+
> 
> The focus fire thing allows you to choose which models to hit and that is judged by what individual cover save they get.
> 
> If you shoot normally you roll to hit and roll for wounds as normal. You then roll for armour saves and any failed ones represent unsaved wounds, and in multiple wound cases you kill one model and then move to the next model and so on. Your opponent gets to choose which AP wounds are allocated first. characters roll a look out sir of 4+ to pass it on to another model. It seems to me that you allocate wounds to the nearest model first, and as you come across a model which deserves a cover save, you then roll for it. If everyone has armour saves then you simply roll all the armour saves and start taking off models. If there is no armour save then you take off nearest models and roll cover saves for those in cover. Hope that make sense.
> 
> You disembark as long as the vehicle has moved less than 6", ie combat speed. You disembark in the movement phase and its 6" from exit points. You then get your shooting phase and the vehicle can then move flat out or shoot.
> 
> Page 79, "Disembarking restrictions: After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to Run in their subsequent shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent assault phase..
> 
> And then on page 33, "Assault Vehicle: Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed".
> 
> If your vehicle is open topped or an assault vehicle, you can charge.
> 
> No change to grenades, other than the ability to throw them. No mention of gk specifically.


If this keeps up much longer I think I'll have all the new rules down before seeing the new book. Assuming they're accurate that is.


----------



## Nisditil

Eleven said:


> Imagine this unit (a common one).
> 
> Necron lord with weave, several lychguard, and a cryptek.
> 
> You have 3 different save values in there. What if you had it even worse, two crypteks.
> 
> You would be almost guaranteed to be rolling 1 dice at a time with this unit.
> 
> Closest to furthest is cool but they sure goofed this shit up a lot. It shouldn't be impossible for a guy in the back to get shot first. They Could have had allocation like before, but you have to allocate to the closest units first.
> 
> I have a feeling that the way they executed this will quickly garner as much hate as wound shenanigans did.


Nah, just roll for however many lychguards you have first and do that many at a time until they are all dead.


----------



## Necrosis

Wait what? Area Terrain gives you a 2+ cover save?


----------



## scscofield

Think it meansyou get a 4+. Base save of 6 reduced by 2?


----------



## Wax

Necrosis said:


> Wait what? Area Terrain gives you a 2+ cover save?


I think they mean +2 cover save, as in a 5+.

Also, hammer of wrath is auto-hit. Just like impact hits in WFB.


----------



## Iron Angel

This brings up another point- Obyron just stopped being completely underpowered in CC due to lack of 3++. Now he's a total beast.

Also, the automatic night-fighting thing has a 50% chance of making Imotekh's Lord of the Storm useless (Unless I am reading it wrong?) but at the same time can make it immensely powerful too (If you roll it in late in the game)


----------



## misfratz

Voss said:


> Depending on the incoming shots, and with battle brother allies... uh... 5? 6?
> 
> Example: BT crusader squad with initiates (3+) and neophytes (4+). Toss in the EC (doesn't count towards HQ units), a marshal in terminator armor (2+/5++) and another IC with a stormshield (3+/3++). Now toss in a Battle brother ally with yet another save configuration, and set up the unit with the ICs toward the front.
> 
> This is suddenly a mess.


I don't see how what we know about the new system is any more messy than the current system, for the example that you give. The main thing we don't know is the order that you would take saving throws for different AP weapons.

As far as I can see the new system simplifies many situations and leaves others roughly the same as they are now.


----------



## misfratz

SilverTabby said:


> I *really* hope AP4-6 is gone in shooting, and that they haven't just made 1-3 the only ones that can bust tanks. That'll shut up those who say the game is just written for those in power armour.
> 
> KEEN! Where the hell is Saturday?


With apologies for disappointing you SilverTabby, but I asked this question of xxRavenxx on Warseer - who had a copy of the rulebook - and the reply was that AP4-6 is not gone in shooting.

Let us all know if you find some people who are willing to test it out in a few games for the fun of it, though. I'll be interested to hear what difference it makes.


----------



## scscofield

The way I'm reading this shooting wotks as follows:
1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Player being shot at starts to roll saves. 
3a. Front model first. 
3b. If it is one of a grp of simular saves then roll all at once. Remove casualties front to back. If the front say 4 out of 10 are the same roll the dice in grps of4
3c. If it is a multiwound model roll that many dice( its wound total) until it dies are rolled when failed.
3d. Any failed rolls that can be rerolled( look out sir, FnP) are rerolled as they are failed.
3e. High ap woinfs are mixed into all this as the controlling player sees fit. Unless its directed ( snipers)


Want to say CC is much like this also but done in Initiative order. That I1 powerfist might be left standing in the back because the front ranks took all the CC wounds before he could pile in. Means high Initiative models can pick who they get in B2B with.


----------



## seermaster

why is obyron know a beast have i missed somthing


----------



## darklove

seermaster said:


> why is obyron know a beast have i missed somthing


2+ save is no longer automatically ignored by power weapons, and he gets additional attacks for failed attacks against him. He is also T5 and S7 in CC. His attacks ignore all armour saves, and get 2d6 AP against vehicles.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Anything major changed for flamers/template weapons?


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> Anything major changed for flamers/template weapons?


They do d3 autohits when snapfiring at a unit that's charging them. The problem is with the new wound allocation rules they aren't the good options they used to be since they need to be towards the front to work well.


----------



## fynn

Main thing im intrested in at the moment, is if Allies can/will benifit from any wargear/USR's from the parent army, and vice-versa.
If the Allies rules are the same as being used this weekend at the 40K doubles tourny (which imo they are, just to see if players try to break em), then USR's and wargear can-not be used on any allies, with only special rules given to the warlord being alble to used on both lots of troops


----------



## Zion

fynn said:


> Main thing im intrested in at the moment, is if Allies can/will benifit from any wargear/USR's from the parent army, and vice-versa.
> If the Allies rules are the same as being used this weekend at the 40K doubles tourny (which imo they are, just to see if players try to break em), then USR's and wargear can-not be used on any allies, with only special rules given to the warlord being alble to used on both lots of troops


Only armies that ally as "Battle Brothers" (basically trusted allies) gain any benefit from being allied. Some allies actually have penalties for being allied as well.

More stuff from the rulebook (to be added post work to the main post), this time from BoLS (there are some duplicates to stuff we already had, but I spotted a bunch of news stuff, hence why I'm reposting it here):



> So i decided to start a new thread so you wouldnt miss this big post i have for you guys. i know i missed a few questions but i have been working all day.
> 
> so MadCowCrazy i think asked these a few times.
> 
> MORALE CHECKS: same as 5th edition, forced at 25% shooting casualty's or by losing combat. also when losing combat you get a -1 modifier to your leader ship by however many wounds you lost by.
> 
> YOU MAY REGROUP IF 25% OF THE UNIT OR MORE IS STILL ALIVE
> 
> TERRAIN:
> 
> lots here, first.
> 
> BUILDING DAMAGE TABLE (D6 EFFECT)
> 
> 1 - building breached it suffers -1 to armour on all facings.
> 2 - tremor - the building shudders making units inside only able to sanp fire for the following turn, additionally if they try to disembark from the building they may only disembark 3 inches rather then the normal 6.
> 3- partial collapse - the unit suffers d6 s6 ap- hits with no cover saves allowed.
> 4- structural collapse - same effect as above except 2d6 hits instead of just 1d6
> 5- catastrophice breach - reduce the building armour value by d3 on all sides
> 6 - the unit takes 4d6 s6 ap- hits, has to make an emergency disembark, if the unit cannot disembark it is destroyed. the building is classed as a ruin.
> 7- the building is utterly destroyed, the unit inside suffer 4d6 s6 hits with no ap, they then must emergency disembark as above, if they cant they die ect. and the building is treated as impassable terrain for the rest of the game, also any unit within d6 suffers s4 ap- hits, the amount of hits is how many models are in the unit that is hit 'OUCH'
> 
> BATTLEFIELD DEBRIE
> 
> amunition dumps - any unit withing 2 inches is allowed to reroll failed to hit rolls with shooting.
> barricades and walls - 4+ cover save if they are behind it.
> comms relay - any player with an unengaded model within 2 inches of a comms relay can reroll reserve rolls, it also offers a 5+ cover save if your behind it
> defence lines- any unit that goes to ground behind defence lines gains +2 to cover instead of the usual +1
> 
> there is another 10+ to many to list.
> 
> FORTIFICATIONS YOU MAY PURCHASE AS PART OF YOUR FOC
> 
> skyshield landing pad - 75 points
> eagies defence lines - 50 points + weapons
> imperial bastion - 75 points + weapons
> fortress of redemption - 220 points + weapons
> 
> THAT IS IT, sorry xenos players. though you could make your own buildings and just use the above fortifications rules.
> 
> PSYCHIC POWERS
> 
> 3 types, blessings, malediction, and conjuration.
> lots here will come back to it once iv read through it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FLYERS
> 
> zooming, must move 18'' - 36'', if it moves under 18 it is counted as destroyed, any units shooting at a zooming flyer have to resolve there to hit rolls as snap shots. flyers cannot be tank shocked OR tank shock themselves. you have to be zooming with a flier to gain the 'jink' special rules (5+ cover save)
> 
> ZOOMING FLYERS CANNOT BE ASSAULTED :O op much
> 
> flyers may only shoot 2 missiles per turn, looking at you storm ravens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flyers MUST begin the game in reserve
> 
> 
> JUMP PACKS AND JET PACKS
> 
> both count your models as having the bulky special rule.
> 
> jet packs move 2d6 in the assault phase instead of assaulting (if you wish)
> 
> jetpacks count as relentless
> 
> SPECIAL RULES
> 
> acute senses - reroll outflank rolls
> and they shall know no fear - as 5th edition for marines
> armourbane - 2d6 armour pen in close combat against vehicles
> blind - any unit hit buy a model or unit with this special rule must take an initiative test. if it fails they are reduced to ws and bs 1 till there next turn.
> eternal warrior - same as 5th
> daemon - gains the fear rule and has a 5+ invuln
> fear - if in base contact with a unit or model with fear you must take a morale check, if failed reduces the opponents weaponskill to 1 for the rest of the tunr
> fearess - as it is in 5th
> feel no pain - +5
> fleet - reroll run and charge move distnaces
> fleshbane - always wounds on 2+ in CC
> crusader- adds d3 to sweaping andvance move and rolls an extra diece for running allowing you to choose the highest result
> furious charge - recieves +1 strength when charging into close combat, if disorderly charged you gain no benefit
> gets hot - same as 5th
> hammer of wrath - when the model charges into base contact, it gains one attack at initiative 10 (strength is unmodified)
> jink - if a model moves flat out or turbo boosts it gains a 4+ cover save till the end of your opponents turn
> monster hunter - rerolls all failed to wound and hit rolls against monstrous creatures
> it will not die - roll a d6 on a 5+ the model ragains one wound (rolled for at the end of your turn)
> POISONED - SAME AS 5TH
> rage - +2 attacks for charging
> shred - rerolls cc to wound in combat
> shrouded - + 2 to cover save
> skilled rider - +1 to jink save
> relentless - same as 5th
> night vision - ignore the effects of nightfighting
> night fighting - same as 5th
> smash - reroll armour pen rolls, half attacks, gains double strength, ap 2
> slow and purposeful - same as 5th
> skyfire - shoots at nomral bs when targeting, flyers, skimmers, and flyig monstrous creatures.
> splitfire - leadership test, if passed, one model may shoot at a different target to the rest of the unit


----------



## misfratz

> THAT IS IT, sorry xenos players. though you could make your own buildings and just use the above fortifications rules.


I'll be amazed if Forge World, at least, haven't released a whole bunch of xenos fortifications within a year, complete with points values, and it would be a surprise if subsequent codex releases were also absent race-specific foritifications.


> both count your models as having the bulky special rule.


I couldn't find the bulky special rule on the first page summary - what's that?


----------



## Bindi Baji

misfratz said:


> I'll be amazed if Forge World, at least, haven't released a whole bunch of xenos fortifications within a year, complete with points values, and it would be a surprise if subsequent codex releases were also absent race-specific foritifications


I suspect we'll see something in white dwarf in the not too distant future about fortifications,
I also think we'll see a lot of FW imperial guard heavy bolter emplacements popping up


----------



## Zion

misfratz said:


> I couldn't find the bulky special rule on the first page summary - what's that?


I haven't seen it yet either, but I assume it means they can't ride in transports unless the transports say otherwise, and take up two spaces when they do it, just like now.


----------



## Madden

I imagine that bulky counts as two for transport capacity.
Like the sound of split fire (first I've heard of that) finally my heavy weapons arnt wasted shooting infantry and vice verser.

Going of all the rumors it seems an interesting set and will shake things up.
One question for those with the book can you still assault if outflanking? (or save my stealers lol).


----------



## Styro-J

Evidently, no assaults can be made the turn you come in from reserves (unless stated otherwise). That cripples my WWP list, but I guess I'll adapt.


----------



## Zion

Styro-J said:


> Evidently, no assaults can be made the turn you come in from reserves (unless stated otherwise). That cripples my WWP list, but I guess I'll adapt.


I must have missed that. I saw that you can't first turn assault from Infiltrating, but I haven't seen anyone mention it as being impossible from reserves.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, it seems Furious Charge only gives you +1S now, not sure if this has been posted yet.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, it seems Furious Charge only gives you +1S now, not sure if this has been posted yet.


Yup! I'm a bit sneaky like that.


----------



## scscofield

Zion said:


> I must have missed that. I saw that you can't first turn assault from Infiltrating, but I haven't seen anyone mention it as being impossible from reserves.


So my wolf scouts come in behind enemy lines, and can not assault..... I really hope that is bullshit.


----------



## Zion

scscofield said:


> So my wolf scouts come in behind enemy lines, and can not assault..... I really hope that is bullshit.


No, that's Outflanking. Infiltrating is when you deploy a unit outside of your deployment zone but in terrain.


----------



## scscofield

Styro-J said:


> Evidently, no assaults can be made the turn you come in from reserves (unless stated otherwise). That cripples my WWP list, but I guess I'll adapt.



This was what I was responding too


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Found this on youtube, I think it pretty much sums up the Imperiums relationship with the Tau...for another day at least. Come Saturday all will be forgiven and the SM and Tau are all buddy buddy :crazy:


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> No, that's Outflanking. Infiltrating is when you deploy a unit outside of your deployment zone but in terrain.


I hate to get into rules lawyering as I don't even have a copy of the rulebook, but isn't outflanking a type of infiltrating similar to how ramming is a type of tank shock?


----------



## scscofield

From http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4650/456706.page#4455495


_coredump wrote:A few questions for one of you kind souls...

I saw where it said you can't assault from reserves. Are there any 'bulk' exceptions to that rule? Like.. outflanking allows assaulting. Or anything, like a USR, to indicate that this rule will not quite be universal?


COuld you give some of the details about reserves. Is that 50% of your entire army? Or does that not count things that *have* to be put in reserve? (such as flyers.) How do drop pods and passengers figure into that?


What do standard reserves (not flyers) need to come in on turn 2? 3?

Flying MCs have special rules... does that count any MC with Wings? Or is it a special designation?


And last of all, could you please check on the particulars of how poison works now. What if S is equal to T? What if S is 3 higher than T? etc.

Thanks



You cannot assault from reserves anymore, not even outflanking.

Reserves are now

Turn 1 - None
Turn 2 - 3+
Turn 3 - 3+
Turn 4 - Automatically in

As far as I can see only flyers are forced into reserves. _



Ugh, those errata/faq better be highly detailed, my wolf scouts just got ass raped.


----------



## IntereoVivo

Man I hope the books come in today.

I'm wondering what's going to stop Shooty DE from absolutely murdering in all Night Fight games. Ignoring sight restrictions, getting a 3+ cover at 24"+ and a 4+ outside of 12". This means that spam lists (which just got silly at 2K+) are going to be able to lay a hurting down for at least one turn, potentially more. This seems a bit too strong. I know that Hull Points will reduce the effectiveness of a Ravager, but when I have 6 of them is it going to matter? This also makes running 3/4 DL Ravagers + 2/3 Dissi Ravagers super effective (since I effectively get an extra turn of tank popping).

On an off note, Haywire Blasters and Grenades just got silly good at taking down vehicles. About the only thing Wyches are good for anymore, but at least they'll MURDER parking lots.


----------



## scscofield

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/listByUser/0/52704/6.page

All the posts from one of the guys with the book. There is pictures of the Psychic pages among all that.


----------



## mcmuffin

The psychic stuff is horseshit. Every army is now going to have a pile of psykers buffing them which can't be nullified by hoods or runic weapons.


----------



## SilverTabby

No assault from outflanking? Annoying, but again I can see why. Having units charged by suddenly appearing things you can do nothing about gets old, real quick. Plus, why can they assault when deepstrikers can't? It makes those few armies that have troops that can (Ymgarls, summoned daemons) more special...

As for the "many psykers buffing" thing - how many armies can actually manage more than 2 or 3 psykers, tops, apart from Eldar (meant to), Tzeentch (meant to) and maybe 'nids (meant to)?


----------



## scscofield

They are saying its no assault from ALL reserves, not just outflanking. You come in on your board edge, there is a unit right there, all you can do is shoot it. Pretty much nerfs the whole WWP aspect of DE.


----------



## Eleven

IntereoVivo said:


> Man I hope the books come in today.
> 
> I'm wondering what's going to stop Shooty DE from absolutely murdering in all Night Fight games. Ignoring sight restrictions, getting a 3+ cover at 24"+ and a 4+ outside of 12". This means that spam lists (which just got silly at 2K+) are going to be able to lay a hurting down for at least one turn, potentially more. This seems a bit too strong. I know that Hull Points will reduce the effectiveness of a Ravager, but when I have 6 of them is it going to matter? This also makes running 3/4 DL Ravagers + 2/3 Dissi Ravagers super effective (since I effectively get an extra turn of tank popping).
> 
> On an off note, Haywire Blasters and Grenades just got silly good at taking down vehicles. About the only thing Wyches are good for anymore, but at least they'll MURDER parking lots.


well, csm, guard, all marines have search lights which will basically make night fighting a non-issue. It will be the non DE xenos that really suffer from this.


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> No assault from outflanking? Annoying, but again I can see why. Having units charged by suddenly appearing things you can do nothing about gets old, real quick. Plus, why can they assault when deepstrikers can't? It makes those few armies that have troops that can (Ymgarls, summoned daemons) more special...
> 
> As for the "many psykers buffing" thing - how many armies can actually manage more than 2 or 3 psykers, tops, apart from Eldar (meant to), Tzeentch (meant to) and maybe 'nids (meant to)?


4 rune priests with divination casting all of the shit on their units? Also, the whole point of outflankers is to hit stuff from the side, when you cant charge, units like wolf scouts and snikrott become shit


----------



## Eleven

SilverTabby said:


> No assault from outflanking? Annoying, but again I can see why. Having units charged by suddenly appearing things you can do nothing about gets old, real quick. Plus, why can they assault when deepstrikers can't? It makes those few armies that have troops that can (Ymgarls, summoned daemons) more special...
> 
> As for the "many psykers buffing" thing - how many armies can actually manage more than 2 or 3 psykers, tops, apart from Eldar (meant to), Tzeentch (meant to) and maybe 'nids (meant to)?


I don't know why you have eldar on that list. Unless i'm missing something they can only have 2. Am I forgetting something?

Grey knights, Chaos, nids, wolves can have more than 3


----------



## Gret79

Eleven said:


> I don't know why you have eldar on that list. Unless i'm missing something they can only have 2. Am I forgetting something?
> 
> Grey knights, Chaos, nids, wolves can have more than 3


many, many warlocks


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> 4 rune priests with divination casting all of the shit on their units? Also, the whole point of outflankers is to hit stuff from the side, when you cant charge, units like wolf scouts and snikrott become shit


Remember, you pick the focus but have to roll for the powers, so you could end up with different things. Additionally, there may be FAQs for the Space Wolves to prevent this (like not being able to take the same powers, or access to the same group of powers because Space Wolf heroes insist on being super special snowflakes). We'll have to wait and see.



Gret79 said:


> many, many warlocks


Warlocks don't have access to psychic powers like Farseers. Sure they're psykers by fluff but they provide constant, automatic effects without needing to test and I don't really see that changing.

And before I forget:
All the tools that shut down psykers haven't been rumored to go away. Eldar stacking Runes of Warding, Nids dropping Leadership (Oh Hai Deathleaper!), the Grey Knights Aegis and Space Marine Psychic Hoods are all still things that exist. Who knows what the FAQs will give the armies that can't touch the new powers or don't have powers will get, and if it REALLY bothers you allying with Eldar to get some Runes of Warding isn't a bad deal.

And I know Necrons have an Anti-Psyker thing but I forgot what it's called. Sorry.


----------



## mcmuffin

I don't like the sound of it. too much like "Lol, cast spells, roll dice and remove that many models" also known as WHFB. the outflanking thing has me well pissed off, so many good units that will just be dumped now because of a rule that makes no logical sense.


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> I don't like the sound of it. too much like "Lol, cast spells, roll dice and remove that many models" also known as WHFB. the outflanking thing has me well pissed off, so many good units that will just be dumped now because of a rule that makes no logical sense.


There isn't a power in every "lore" that murders whole units and negates armies (no Characteristic Tests or Die spells running rampant this time!). Sure there are a lot of powers but most are small shooty powers or small buffs/debuffs. And you have to choose them from the school randomly.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> All the tools that shut down psykers haven't been rumored to go away. Eldar stacking Runes of Warding, Nids dropping Leadership (Oh Hai Deathleaper!), the Grey Knights Aegis and Space Marine Psychic Hoods are all still things that exist. Who knows what the FAQs will give the armies that can't touch the new powers or don't have powers will get, and if it REALLY bothers you allying with Eldar to get some Runes of Warding isn't a bad deal.
> 
> And I know Necrons have an Anti-Psyker thing but I forgot what it's called. Sorry.


since they brutally nerfed psychic hood, the only viable psychic defense in that list (I mean really truly viable) will be the eldar's runes. unless they nerf that too.




Zion said:


> There isn't a power in every "lore" that murders whole units and negates armies (no Characteristic Tests or Die spells running rampant this time!). Sure there are a lot of powers but most are small shooty powers or small buffs/debuffs. And you have to choose them from the school randomly.


Yeah, the brute force powers look weak to me. It's the telepathy and div powers that are gonna be the toughies.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> since they brutally nerfed psychic hood, the only viable psychic defense in that list (I mean really truly viable) will be the eldar's runes. unless they nerf that too.


We haven't seen anything that changes the rules for the Psychic Hood from the Space Marine book yet, just that it gives a unit bonuses to it's rolls to negate powers. We'll have to wait and see to know for sure how this will go.



Eleven said:


> Yeah, the brute force powers look weak to me. It's the telepathy and div powers that are gonna be the toughies.


I can agree with that. Watching a unit of Paladins fight themselves would be hilarious.


----------



## Voss

misfratz said:


> I don't see how what we know about the new system is any more messy than the current system, for the example that you give. The main thing we don't know is the order that you would take saving throws for different AP weapons.
> 
> As far as I can see the new system simplifies many situations and leaves others roughly the same as they are now.


Well the big difference is the effect and the time involved. Under the current system, you assign wounds, then roll groups. 

Under this new system, 1 by 1 rolls are pretty much required, and shooting can be much less effective with the right setup. For example, put a 3 wound character with a 2+ save at the front of a unit with 4 neophytes and 3 marines. Say its hit with 20 bolter shots. Under the old system, it is pretty simple...you can simply assign 2 wounds to the character, 12 to neophytes and 6 to the marines. This yields 4 dead neophytes and 2 dead marines and nothing on the character (statistically).

Under the new system, with the character in front, the character soaks 12+ shots (lets be nice and say 12 for now), and then alternate position of neophytes and marines. So, ~2 shots to kill a neophyte, ~3 for a marine. So 12 shots kill the character, the next 2 kill a neophyte, 3 to a marine, 2 to another initiate and the last wound to a marine that likely isn't killed. So a character, 2 neophytes and a marine, and a lot of time spent rolling individual dice. 

Naturally, people are going to quibble about putting the character up front, but frankly, he could potentially soak a full 18 shots (or even more, though possibly less as well) before going down, or you can play other games with the way the unit is set up. But whatever you do, roll saves until the closet model dies pretty much objectively takes more time and effort.


----------



## Eleven

Zion said:


> We haven't seen anything that changes the rules for the Psychic Hood from the Space Marine book yet, just that it gives a unit bonuses to it's rolls to negate powers. We'll have to wait and see to know for sure how this will go.


lol, you're right. They probably made it so that psychic hoods do both. Thanks for reminding me that there probably won't be any nerfs to space marines.

Man a 4 plus to nullify within 24 and then another 4+ to deny the witch. That would be pretty broken.


----------



## Eleven

Voss said:


> Well the big difference is the effect and the time involved. Under the current system, you assign wounds, then roll groups.
> 
> Under this new system, 1 by 1 rolls are pretty much required, and shooting can be much less effective with the right setup. For example, put a 3 wound character with a 2+ save at the front of a unit with 4 neophytes and 3 marines. Say its hit with 20 bolter shots. Under the old system, it is pretty simple...you can simply assign 2 wounds to the character, 12 to neophytes and 6 to the marines. This yields 4 dead neophytes and 2 dead marines and nothing on the character (statistically).
> 
> Under the new system, with the character in front, the character soaks 12+ shots (lets be nice and say 12 for now), and then alternate position of neophytes and marines. So, ~2 shots to kill a neophyte, ~3 for a marine. So 12 shots kill the character, the next 2 kill a neophyte, 3 to a marine, 2 to another initiate and the last wound to a marine that likely isn't killed. So a character, 2 neophytes and a marine, and a lot of time spent rolling individual dice.
> 
> Naturally, people are going to quibble about putting the character up front, but frankly, he could potentially soak a full 18 shots (or even more, though possibly less as well) before going down, or you can play other games with the way the unit is set up. But whatever you do, roll saves until the closet model dies pretty much objectively takes more time and effort.


It will be way way longer for units that have multiple armor saves.

It will be a little shorter for units that don't. If everything in the unit has a 3+ you won't have to allocate anything anymore. that will be nice.


----------



## seermaster

The new system makes sense it gets rid of wound alocation pallies and nobs. Witch were bludy anoying, and ok people can sacrifice charecters to save a squad but with all the meltas missiles it doesnt really matter. As they'll dy in 1 shot from the melta anyway .


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Voss said:


> Under this new system, 1 by 1 rolls are pretty much required, and shooting can be much less effective with the right setup.


This is the only problem I have with this system. Rolling 1 at a time isn't a huge issue, until as in your example we're talking 10-20 wounds. Just doesn't seem in the interest of cinematicness if you have stop and roll dice one at a time...several times in that phase. Going to be interesting how this all works out though. I'm not passing judgment till I try it, right now it seems like we might be missing info on how that works too.

Not assaulting from an outflank I can sort of see. I mean if you have over watch that would balance it a bit but the enemy has no idea you're unit is there because of a table edge and you get to just jump him? Sounds bull to me in a way too. That doesn't make scouts useless though, just have to use terrain and not show up right in front of enemy troops. I do that like I just don't care with DW but they're normally safer in front of cover after all.


----------



## Voss

Eleven said:


> It will be way way longer for units that have multiple armor saves.
> 
> It will be a little shorter for units that don't. If everything in the unit has a 3+ you won't have to allocate anything anymore. that will be nice.


It won't be shorter, however. You may not have to allocate as in 5th, but if you roll in a bunch you can get vastly different results than you do if you roll saves one at a time until the closet model dies. If each model can get multiple saves until they die, the statistical average doesn't tell the whole story- it also suddenly matters what order the numbers come in.


----------



## SilverTabby

How many units that regularly outflank have no capacilty to shoot? Tyranids suffer from Outflank / reserves not assaulting, who else? 

This won't affect my Dominions in the slightest. Are Wolf Scouts only good for for combat? 

I can't see it ruining units, just forcing you to rethink how they are used as it won't be "appear, kill in combat, you can't do anything hur hur hur". To be fair, I've never played *anyone* (barring one newbie) who deployed within assaulting range of the edge when they knew I had outflankers. And my guys had fleet.


----------



## Eleven

Voss said:


> It won't be shorter, however. You may not have to allocate as in 5th, but if you roll in a bunch you can get vastly different results than you do if you roll saves one at a time until the closet model dies. If each model can get multiple saves until they die, the statistical average doesn't tell the whole story- it also suddenly matters what order the numbers come in.


You are not understanding this I don't think.

If all the models in the unit are the same armor save, then you will never have to allocate and you will not have to roll 1 at a time.

If you have 5 guys, each different but with the same save, then even if you get hit with 15 wounds, then you will just roll them all at once and remove from the front first. The only time it will be slower is when there are mixed saves. in the old system 15 wounds on 5 different models would take a lot of time. In the new system, you will just roll and remove no problem.


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> They do d3 autohits when snapfiring at a unit that's charging them. The problem is with the new wound allocation rules they aren't the good options they used to be since they need to be towards the front to work well.


They needed to be near the front to work well in 5th. The template wasn't allowed to touch friendlies. And D3 shots snapshooting is much better than having to be at the front and not be able to hit anything if they're out of template range before they charge. Having a template would make flamers etc MUCH too powerful.



Voss said:


> Well the big difference is the effect and the time involved. Under the current system, you assign wounds, then roll groups.
> 
> Under this new system, 1 by 1 rolls are pretty much required, and shooting can be much less effective with the right setup. For example, put a 3 wound character with a 2+ save at the front of a unit with 4 neophytes and 3 marines. Say its hit with 20 bolter shots. Under the old system, it is pretty simple...you can simply assign 2 wounds to the character, 12 to neophytes and 6 to the marines. This yields 4 dead neophytes and 2 dead marines and nothing on the character (statistically).
> 
> Under the new system, with the character in front, the character soaks 12+ shots (lets be nice and say 12 for now), and then alternate position of neophytes and marines. So, ~2 shots to kill a neophyte, ~3 for a marine. So 12 shots kill the character, the next 2 kill a neophyte, 3 to a marine, 2 to another initiate and the last wound to a marine that likely isn't killed. So a character, 2 neophytes and a marine, and a lot of time spent rolling individual dice.
> 
> Naturally, people are going to quibble about putting the character up front, but frankly, he could potentially soak a full 18 shots (or even more, though possibly less as well) before going down, or you can play other games with the way the unit is set up. But whatever you do, roll saves until the closet model dies pretty much objectively takes more time and effort.


If you make a unit like that (and let's face it, can anyone other than Templars do it?) then it's your own fault it takes forever. Equipment doesn't seem to matter any more, it's what your save value is and where you are in the unit. Much simpler than the multi-wound shenanigans that went on with differently armed mw creatures...


Voss said:


> It won't be shorter, however. You may not have to allocate as in 5th, but if you roll in a bunch you can get vastly different results than you do if you roll saves one at a time until the closet model dies. If each model can get multiple saves until they die, the statistical average doesn't tell the whole story- it also suddenly matters what order the numbers come in.


You can't normally have more than 2 saves - armour then FnP. So you roll armour saves in a batch (if all saves are identical). Then roll FnP, then take off that many people starting at the front. If you have mixed saves, just roll the batches multiple times until you run out of people with that save, take out the failed dice then roll again with the new save value. 

And yes, hiding behind the terminator in front is perfectly valid. It's what I'd do if the bloke in front had better armour than me. 

These arguements are all based off speculation though, how about we wait til Saturday when we can argue off the same page?


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> Are Wolf Scouts only good for for combat?
> 
> I can't see it ruining units, just forcing you to rethink how they are used as it won't be "appear, kill in combat, you can't do anything hur hur hur". To be fair, I've never played *anyone* (barring one newbie) who deployed within assaulting range of the edge when they knew I had outflankers. And my guys had fleet.


You just contradicted yourself. You argue that you can't come on and kill shit anymore because of the rules which is somehow a good thing, yet you argue that against a good player you never could. So what is the problem with it?

Wolf Scouts rely on getting a charge off when they arrive to stop them dying to shooting.

Genestealers need to get a charge off or else be shot to shit

All of the high impact outflankers rely on a charge when they arrive or else rely on their ability to force the enemy's movement. If they aren't a threat then people can ignore them


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> They needed to be near the front to work well in 5th. The template wasn't allowed to touch friendlies. And D3 shots snapshooting is much better than having to be at the front and not be able to hit anything if they're out of template range before they charge. Having a template would make flamers etc MUCH too powerful.


I'm sorry if my meaning wasn't clear: the Flamer is likely one of the soonest to die because it needs to be near the front to be effective as anything outside of a counter-charge weapon. And unless something changes I don't think you can use the template over your own models.



SilverTabby said:


> If you make a unit like that (and let's face it, can anyone other than Templars do it?) then it's your own fault it takes forever. Equipment doesn't seem to matter any more, it's what your save value is and where you are in the unit. Much simpler than the multi-wound shenanigans that went on with differently armed mw creatures...


Sisters of Battle have the Battle Conclave, and Grey Knights have the Inquisitorial Henchmen Squads that I assume would be slower to roll for, but only a little.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> And yes, hiding behind the terminator in front is perfectly valid. It's what I'd do if the bloke in front had better armour than me.
> 
> These arguements are all based off speculation though, how about we wait til Saturday when we can argue off the same page?


Yeah, that's why I brought it up, exactly how that's delt with for some reason hasn't come up. Honestly just rolling all wounds at once and maybe rwrolling I'd you hit a unit with a new save that isn't killed by one of the rolls makes sense to me.

Of course what's on the page is a mystery even with all these people who already have the book. Silly.


----------



## Zion

Karyudo-DS said:


> Yeah, that's why I brought it up, exactly how that's delt with for some reason hasn't come up. Honestly just rolling all wounds at once and maybe rwrolling I'd you hit a unit with a new save that isn't killed by one of the rolls makes sense to me.
> 
> Of course what's on the page is a mystery even with all these people who already have the book. Silly.


Thanks to some scanned pages that I was forwarded this morning from 4chan (for legality sake the pages will not be posted, but I will be transcribing the new info for the rollup post and adding it all to the tail end of the thread so people will be less likely to miss it after I get home from work) I've seen part of how this will work:

If a unit has identical armor saves they roll together and pull from side of the unit closest to the shooter.

Yes, that part really is that simple.

Unfortuantely, how to handle mixed units is on a different page and was not in the pages I saw. Other things that will be coming are more Fortification rules, and the "Arceotech" stuff (random terrain).


----------



## SilverTabby

mcmuffin said:


> You just contradicted yourself. You argue that you can't come on and kill shit anymore because of the rules which is somehow a good thing, yet you argue that against a good player you never could. So what is the problem with it?
> 
> Wolf Scouts rely on getting a charge off when they arrive to stop them dying to shooting.
> 
> Genestealers need to get a charge off or else be shot to shit
> 
> All of the high impact outflankers rely on a charge when they arrive or else rely on their ability to force the enemy's movement. If they aren't a threat then people can ignore them


I didn't contradict myself, I said I don't mind the idea, which is different. My genestealers never got a charge off from outflanking, so I won't miss the option. Having people outflank me, I like the idea I'll get one round of shooting off at them beforehand.

Before, something turned up from outflanking it was a threat, but that was irrelevant as you couldn't do anything about it, so choosing to ignore it wasn't an option. Now, you get the option to ignore it and die next turn, or deal with it somehow. Much less one-sided. 

The high impact outflankers don't rely on a charge, they just have a better effect when they can. As someone who can quite happily outflank with stealers, not charge first turn and still brutalize with them, I can't see the problem here. If they are going to be shot at, think harder about how you place / move them. You've got an entire edge, after all.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Zion said:


> Yes, that part really is that simple.
> 
> Unfortuantely, how to handle mixed units is on a different page and was not in the pages I saw. Other things that will be coming are more Fortification rules, and the "Arceotech" stuff (random terrain).


Haha, that's what I mean. We figured that part yet the "interesting" piece of the puzzle is still hiding. Oh well, only a couple days at most anyway.


----------



## mcmuffin

SilverTabby said:


> I didn't contradict myself, I said I don't mind the idea, which is different. My genestealers never got a charge off from outflanking, so I won't miss the option. Having people outflank me, I like the idea I'll get one round of shooting off at them beforehand.
> 
> Before, something turned up from outflanking it was a threat, but that was irrelevant as you couldn't do anything about it, so choosing to ignore it wasn't an option. Now, you get the option to ignore it and die next turn, or deal with it somehow. Much less one-sided.
> 
> The high impact outflankers don't rely on a charge, they just have a better effect when they can. As someone who can quite happily outflank with stealers, not charge first turn and still brutalize with them, I can't see the problem here. If they are going to be shot at, think harder about how you place / move them. You've got an entire edge, after all.


You currently can do something about outflankers. move in from the table edges


----------



## Nisditil

The necron antipsyker is the Canaptyk Spider with a Gloom Prison that nullifies all psyker powers used against it or any troops within 3 inches of it on a 4+ iirc


----------



## The Sturk

Here is how I figured to do wound allocation with a unit with varying armor saves:

Lets say you have 5 3+ guys in front and 10 4+ guys in back. You are wounded 20 times. Take 5 dice and roll them till some die, say 2 die. Then roll 3 die and repeat until all 3+ guys are dead. Then for the rest of the shots, use the 4+ saves.


----------



## SilverTabby

mcmuffin said:


> You currently can do something about outflankers. move in from the table edges


Hence my original point of never having got a charge off in the turn they arrive.


The Sturk said:


> Here is how I figured to do wound allocation with a unit with varying armor saves:
> 
> Lets say you have 5 3+ guys in front and 10 4+ guys in back. You are wounded 20 times. Take 5 dice and roll them till some die, say 2 die. Then roll 3 die and repeat until all 3+ guys are dead. Then for the rest of the shots, use the 4+ saves.


I am a big enough person to admit when I've made an error. I was going to say roll 20 dice, take off the failed dice then move on to the different saves, but that means you'll be taking more wounds than you should. 

It is better to do 5 dice for 5 blokes from a pool of 20 at a time, that way you know which were saved before beating the armour. Otherwise each shot has multiple chances of killing someone instead of just one chance. My bad.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

MORALE CHECKS: same as 5th edition, forced at 25% shooting casualty's or by losing combat. also when losing combat you get a -1 modifier to your leader ship by however many wounds you lost by.

YOU MAY REGROUP IF 25% OF THE UNIT OR MORE IS STILL ALIVE

TERRAIN:

lots here, first.

BUILDING DAMAGE TABLE (D6 EFFECT)

1 - building breached it suffers -1 to armour on all facings.
2 - tremor - the building shudders making units inside only able to sanp fire for the following turn, additionally if they try to disembark from the building they may only disembark 3 inches rather then the normal 6.
3- partial collapse - the unit suffers d6 s6 ap- hits with no cover saves allowed.
4- structural collapse - same effect as above except 2d6 hits instead of just 1d6
5- catastrophice breach - reduce the building armour value by d3 on all sides
6 - the unit takes 4d6 s6 ap- hits, has to make an emergency disembark, if the unit cannot disembark it is destroyed. the building is classed as a ruin.
7- the building is utterly destroyed, the unit inside suffer 4d6 s6 hits with no ap, they then must emergency disembark as above, if they cant they die ect. and the building is treated as impassable terrain for the rest of the game, also any unit within d6 suffers s4 ap- hits, the amount of hits is how many models are in the unit that is hit 'OUCH'

BATTLEFIELD DEBRIE

amunition dumps - any unit withing 2 inches is allowed to reroll failed to hit rolls with shooting.
barricades and walls - 4+ cover save if they are behind it.
comms relay - any player with an unengaded model within 2 inches of a comms relay can reroll reserve rolls, it also offers a 5+ cover save if your behind it
defence lines- any unit that goes to ground behind defence lines gains +2 to cover instead of the usual +1

there is another 10+ to many to list.

FORTIFICATIONS YOU MAY PURCHASE AS PART OF YOUR FOC

skyshield landing pad - 75 points
eagies defence lines - 50 points + weapons
imperial bastion - 75 points + weapons
fortress of redemption - 220 points + weapons

THAT IS IT, sorry xenos players. though you could make your own buildings and just use the above fortifications rules.

PSYCHIC POWERS

3 types, blessings, malediction, and conjuration.
lots here will come back to it once iv read through it

FLYERS

zooming, must move 18'' - 36'', if it moves under 18 it is counted as destroyed, any units shooting at a zooming flyer have to resolve there to hit rolls as snap shots. flyers cannot be tank shocked OR tank shock themselves. you have to be zooming with a flier to gain the 'jink' special rules (5+ cover save)

ZOOMING FLYERS CANNOT BE ASSAULTED :O op much

flyers may only shoot 2 missiles per turn, looking at you storm ravens

flyers MUST begin the game in reserve


JUMP PACKS AND JET PACKS

both count your models as having the bulky special rule.

jet packs move 2d6 in the assault phase instead of assaulting (if you wish)

jetpacks count as relentless

SPECIAL RULES

acute senses - reroll outflank rolls
and they shall know no fear - as 5th edition for marines
armourbane - 2d6 armour pen in close combat against vehicles
blind - any unit hit buy a model or unit with this special rule must take an initiative test. if it fails they are reduced to ws and bs 1 till there next turn.
eternal warrior - same as 5th
daemon - gains the fear rule and has a 5+ invuln
fear - if in base contact with a unit or model with fear you must take a morale check, if failed reduces the opponents weaponskill to 1 for the rest of the tunr
fearess - as it is in 5th
feel no pain - +5
fleet - reroll run and charge move distnaces
fleshbane - always wounds on 2+ in CC
crusader- adds d3 to sweaping andvance move and rolls an extra diece for running allowing you to choose the highest result
furious charge - recieves +1 strength when charging into close combat, if disorderly charged you gain no benefit
gets hot - same as 5th
hammer of wrath - when the model charges into base contact, it gains one attack at initiative 10 (strength is unmodified)
jink - if a model moves flat out or turbo boosts it gains a 4+ cover save till the end of your opponents turn
monster hunter - rerolls all failed to wound and hit rolls against monstrous creatures
it will not die - roll a d6 on a 5+ the model ragains one wound (rolled for at the end of your turn)
POISONED - SAME AS 5TH
rage - +2 attacks for charging
shred - rerolls cc to wound in combat
shrouded - + 2 to cover save
skilled rider - +1 to jink save
relentless - same as 5th
night vision - ignore the effects of nightfighting
night fighting - same as 5th
smash - reroll armour pen rolls, half attacks, gains double strength, ap 2
slow and purposeful - same as 5th
skyfire - shoots at nomral bs when targeting, flyers, skimmers, and flyig monstrous creatures.
splitfire - leadership test, if passed, one model may shoot at a different target to the rest of the unit


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> *snip*


Sorry MCC, saw that this morning over on the BoLS forum and ninja'd you a few pages back. It's going into the rollup as well when I get off work.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> It is better to do 5 dice for 5 blokes from a pool of 20 at a time, that way you know which were saved before beating the armour .


Makes sense, though I could also see just rolling them all and comparing the rolls lowest to highest. So if you have say, a terminator bested in you unit and roll nothing but ones and twos but run out of deaths by ones he would save the rest. That would be less rolling but maybe im biased.


----------



## Diatribe1974

Mmmm.....Saturday can't come soon enough!


----------



## Voss

Eleven said:


> You are not understanding this I don't think.
> 
> If all the models in the unit are the same armor save, then you will never have to allocate and you will not have to roll 1 at a time.
> 
> If you have 5 guys, each different but with the same save, then even if you get hit with 15 wounds, then you will just roll them all at once and remove from the front first. The only time it will be slower is when there are mixed saves. in the old system 15 wounds on 5 different models would take a lot of time. In the new system, you will just roll and remove no problem.


Erm, I'm talking specifically about the summary from Faiet yesterday which stated _specifically_ that saves are rolled one at a time until the closest model dies, then you move to the next closest and roll saves until that model dies and so on. I'm a little skeptical of it (if only for the amount of extra time it takes), but that was the rumour given.


----------



## Firewolf

>> Night fighting is not the same as 5th. Night fighting makes units over 36" impossible to hit, 24-36 shrouded, 12-24 stealth, and 12 hit as normal. I only read this part o the rule, the dice for spotting may still be in there, no sure.


----------



## Firewolf

>> Some of the warlord traits are cool. 1 gives yer entire army move through cover (ruins) and stealth(ruins). 1 gies yer boss and unit acute senses. Basically 3 tables, choose a table, d6 roll, theres yer skill. Some are good, some are great and some are stinky.


----------



## Eleven

Voss said:


> Erm, I'm talking specifically about the summary from Faiet yesterday which stated _specifically_ that saves are rolled one at a time until the closest model dies, then you move to the next closest and roll saves until that model dies and so on. I'm a little skeptical of it (if only for the amount of extra time it takes), but that was the rumour given.


There would be literally no difference between rolling one at a time and rolling all at once in terms of gameplay, so even if gws put in the rule book that you are supposed to roll one at a time (really doubt that lol) then players will still not roll 1 at a time since it makes no sense to do so.


----------



## Eleven

Hey I just had a thought...since you allocated closest to furthest, won't that mean that vector strike will cherry pick units to kill (aka the one you flew over will be the one to die). Or did they address this somehow.


----------



## Firewolf

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, it seems Furious Charge only gives you +1S now, not sure if this has been posted yet.


>> Yer right mate, +1s only.


----------



## Zion

Eleven said:


> Hey I just had a thought...since you allocated closest to furthest, won't that mean that vector strike will cherry pick units to kill (aka the one you flew over will be the one to die). Or did they address this somehow.


Flying MCs are said to have their own section for rules, so I assume that this will be addressed there.


----------



## fynn

So berserkers lose one of the main Advantages they had on the charge with the old Furious charge (+1 int,+1 str).
But then they may gain new rules once the new CSM codex appears, which will make up for the lack of the +1I


----------



## mcmuffin

Acute senses is a load of ballsack now. Sure, wolf scouts will almost always turn up on the desired table edge, but that is one unit. 

Some of these USRs are pure asshattery


----------



## Zion

mcmuffin said:


> Acute senses is a load of ballsack now. Sure, wolf scouts will almost always turn up on the desired table edge, but that is one unit.
> 
> Some of these USRs are pure asshattery


Wait until we get FAQs to complain. For all you know the Space Wolves may be getting some new rules (like Night Vision) in exchange for Acute Senses. At least it makes more sense now than having multiple USRs that do that same thing.


----------



## SilverTabby

Some of those USRs are direct contradictions of previous. Like relentless - in 5th it doesn't allow move:shoot:assault, but we now have 2 versions. Fearless had claims you no longer lose wounds (though the wound loss wasn't in the USR, it was in the morale section).

I think things are getting lost in translation here.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Some of those USRs are direct contradictions of previous. Like relentless - in 5th it doesn't allow move:shoot:assault, but we now have 2 versions. Fearless had claims you no longer lose wounds (though the wound loss wasn't in the USR, it was in the morale section).
> 
> I think things are getting lost in translation here.


In some cases I think your last sentence is litterally true. Some of these rules seem to be translated from copies of the rulebook that aren't in English. I'm hopeful that the final rules will be cleaner and less confusing.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Any reference in the rulebook to this wall of flames phil was all goo goo over in todays vid, or is that the d3 overwatch attacks?

Got off the phone with customer service after my tracking number wouldn't work. They aren't actually shipping the gamer's edition til friday.


----------



## pantat

Just played my first game of 6th and it is fooking awesome. I'll definitely be taking my rulebook with me to work tomorrow and reading it!!


----------



## pantat

Purge the Heretic said:


> Any reference in the rulebook to this wall of flames phil was all goo goo over in todays vid, or is that the d3 overwatch attacks?
> 
> Got off the phone with customer service after my tracking number wouldn't work. They aren't actually shipping the gamer's edition til friday.


Yes wallof flames is the description for template weapons getting d3 attacks overwatch


----------



## Karyudo-DS

pantat said:


> Just played my first game of 6th and it is fooking awesome.


You did what now? :shok:

So erm... did the multiple save type thing for wounding come up? Just curious.


----------



## Nisditil

hmm, with 6th edition having random night fighting rules and Imotekh the Storm Lord causing night fight, if he loses it and then night fight comes back does that mean he can use the lord of storms attack? I know he can't on solar pulse's but "Whilst the Night Fighting rules remain in play" so if night fight goes away and then comes back giving the night fighting rules again.....


----------



## The Sturk

No, the lightning only lasts when it is caused by him. And since the game has nightfight going because of him, it would likely override the random chance of lightning.


----------



## Nisditil

I was wondering how that may work as it says that solar flares don't allow it but if its random night fighting during a game now almost seems like it would double up his chances to keep it, but then again that may or may not make him more powerful...


----------



## Imwookie2

Have we seen anything about the hover rule yet......and how you disembark from flyers


----------



## pantat

Karyudo-DS said:


> You did what now? :shok:
> 
> So erm... did the multiple save type thing for wounding come up? Just curious.


Not in the armies we fielded, no. But it does have a paragraph mentioning it and yes you could have a terminator wolf lord soak up all the hits. It specifically says something like they know its slightly slower but gives everyone chance for their save or something. I can quote it later when i take my bookto work lol


----------



## pantat

Nisditil said:


> hmm, with 6th edition having random night fighting rules and Imotekh the Storm Lord causing night fight, if he loses it and then night fight comes back does that mean he can use the lord of storms attack? I know he can't on solar pulse's but "Whilst the Night Fighting rules remain in play" so if night fight goes away and then comes back giving the night fighting rules again.....


Random night fighting is just like in cities of death. 4+ on turn 1 then its noght fighting. If not, 4+ on turn 5 will be night fighting and fir the rest of the game


----------



## pantat

Imwookie2 said:


> Have we seen anything about the hover rule yet......and how you disembark from flyers


Hover mode basically turns a flyer into a fast skimmer for the turn. 

Disembarking is the same as for vehicles listed somewhere before, up to 6" away from the base of the flyer and no further move allowed. Same as vehicles but from an access point


----------



## Drinkgasoline

These different types of power weapons are really incoherent.

How do you define things like Relic Blades or other special CC weapons in various codexes?


----------



## LukeValantine

Unusual power weapons are ap3


----------



## pantat

LukeValantine said:


> Unusual power weapons are ap3


Yes


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Power Mauls are one of the better ones (Crozious for the Chappies) +2 Str AP4 and forces a wounded model to be at I1 until the end of next turn ... sweet (concussive special rule)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

We just got another load of rulebooks to the toystore here, 5 6E rulebooks. So I will be picking one up later today. Not sure what hasn't been answered but if there are still some questions by the time I get back I will try to answer them.


----------



## Hellgore

Got mine today 

Don't know if it's already been mentioned... concerning different weaponstats shot at a unit 

You group different weaponstats together. So, say a Tacsquad hits with 8 Bolters, Multimelta, Melta and Plasmapistol that would be:
8x S4Ap5
2x S8Ap1
1x S7Ap2

Now the SHOOTING Player decides, which weapongroup must be resolved against the unit shot at. So no more stacking of armourignoring hits on one model etc. That sounds really really great.


----------



## pantat

Hellgore said:


> Got mine today
> 
> Don't know if it's already been mentioned... concerning different weaponstats shot at a unit
> 
> You group different weaponstats together. So, say a Tacsquad hits with 8 Bolters, Multimelta, Melta and Plasmapistol that would be:
> 8x S4Ap5
> 2x S8Ap1
> 1x S7Ap2
> 
> Now the SHOOTING Player decides, which weapongroup must be resolved against the unit shot at. So no more stacking of armourignoring hits on one model etc. That sounds really really great.


Yes that is quite good now. So the melta shot on the terminator wolf lord whatever at the front then the rest on the squad after he dies


----------



## Wrath

pantat said:


> Yes that is quite good now. So the melta shot on the terminator wolf lord whatever at the front then the rest on the squad after he dies


He will get a 4+ look out sir! roll to re-allocate.


----------



## asianavatar

> Yes that is quite good now. So the melta shot on the terminator wolf lord whatever at the front then the rest on the squad after he dies


Kind of, from what I understand you allocate wounds till someone dies. So as the shooting player I would say, allocate all the S8 AP1 wounds first. If your wolf lord is the closest model than you make your save, if fail than you get your look out sir roll. If he dies than the next would goes against the next guy. If he lives though, you keep throwing those saves against him till he eats them all or dies.


----------



## pantat

Yes it is slightly slower in that case but makes sense. If you wearthe better armour surely you should take all the hits for the squad lol.


----------



## maddermax

asianavatar said:


> Kind of, from what I understand you allocate wounds till someone dies. So as the shooting player I would say, allocate all the S8 AP1 wounds first. If your wolf lord is the closest model than you make your save, if fail than you get your look out sir roll. If he dies than the next would goes against the next guy. If he lives though, you keep throwing those saves against him till he eats them all or dies.


Seems like it could be very slow, if you have multiple different characters/profiles in your list. A unit of mixed Black Templars could take a fair while to go through, as you work out who's closest, roll wounds one by one till he fails, then go to the next closest. A unit of mixed save models, possibly with characters with a different profile again could take a long time to work through...


----------



## Eleven

asianavatar said:


> Kind of, from what I understand you allocate wounds till someone dies. So as the shooting player I would say, allocate all the S8 AP1 wounds first. If your wolf lord is the closest model than you make your save, if fail than you get your look out sir roll. If he dies than the next would goes against the next guy. If he lives though, you keep throwing those saves against him till he eats them all or dies.


I think not captain.

I haven't read the rules yet, but I would say you have to make the look out sir roll before you save the wound. otherwise, 1 model with a better armor save would be able to essentially give the entire unit his armor.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if I can get in trouble for saying this, but -- Yes, in fact you CAN get in trouble for that. -G


----------



## Hellgore

Eleven said:


> I think not captain.
> 
> I haven't read the rules yet, but I would say you have to make the look out sir roll before you save the wound. otherwise, 1 model with a better armor save would be able to essentially give the entire unit his armor.


You make the lookout-roll before you roll a save. But you roll for one hit. Not for the whole group. So if another model takes the hit, you proceed again with the SC (if he has a different save than others and stands closest to the shooting unit, mind you) with the next hit, which can be rolled against with lookout sir again.


----------



## Eleven

Hellgore said:


> You make the lookout-roll before you roll a save. But you roll for one hit. Not for the whole group. So if another model takes the hit, you proceed again with the SC (if he has a different save than others and stands closest to the shooting unit, mind you) with the next hit, which can be rolled against with lookout sir again.


or you could roll all the shots you want to be look out sir'd at once and the roll them on the whole squad, then remove.

Then roll all the wounds you don't want to look out sir on the HQ three at a time (or however many wounds he has)

Ok, I now have a copy of the rulebook and will answer any questions that might be out there.


Here's a little tidbit I don't think anyone has mentioned. If a unit has different speed values in one unit, they can move the maximum distance each model is allowed as long as they remain within unit coherency. kinda neat I guess, I can't think of an example where this is particularly useful.

Movement now effects units on a model to model basis, so you could move all the models in a unit of space marines and keep the lascannon still so it can still shoot. Neat.

Instant death now appears to be double the toughness after modifiers instead of before. Thanks nurgle and bikers.


----------



## Hellgore

Eleven said:


> or you could roll all the shots you want to be look out sir'd at once and the roll them on the whole squad, then remove.
> 
> Then roll all the wounds you don't want to look out sir on the HQ three at a time (or however many wounds he has)


No, it doesn't work like that.
Following my given example - let's say they shot at a grey hunter squad with a termiwolfguard which is the closest model. I say he has to soak the S8Ap1 first. So the WG uses lookout for the first of the two hits and succeeds. The player can redirect the hit to another model within 6" of the WG. Then the second S8AP1 hit is resolved, again against the WG. This time he fails lookout and has to take his inv save. If he succeeds, the next group is allocated, again him being the first model hit.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

pantat said:


> Not in the armies we fielded, no. But it does have a paragraph mentioning it and yes you could have a terminator wolf lord soak up all the hits. It specifically says something like they know its slightly slower but gives everyone chance for their save or something. I can quote it later when i take my bookto work lol


So you really roll one at a time? Seems needlessly slow if you have a lot of rolls. Though I guess it let's him deflect some of the wounds before dying off. Funny they wouldn't have a quicker way.


----------



## asianavatar

You can always roll them in sets based on the number of wounds the hero has. So a three wound model in a unit who took 8 saves, would roll a set of three dice. If one wound is caused, pick up another two dice roll those, etc. Save works with units with mixed armour saves.

Look out Sir happens before armour saves.


----------



## Hellgore

Karyudo-DS said:


> So you really roll one at a time? Seems needlessly slow if you have a lot of rolls. Though I guess it let's him deflect some of the wounds before dying off. Funny they wouldn't have. Quicker way.


They explicitly say that it takes longer but it is assured this way that every model makes most use of its save. And it's only in this special case. They have an example for quick rolling with an 17 model sized orkmob with nob (4+ vs 6+ of the rest). Here there are six orks in front of the nob. After 8 hits from a guard unit the player rolls for those six models altogether, fails 4 and rolls the remaining two wounds against the remaining two orks. If they'd have failed all 6, the nob would have to take the remaining two wounds with his save one by one.


----------



## Hellgore

asianavatar said:


> You can always roll them in sets based on the number of wounds the hero has. So a three wound model in a unit who took 8 saves, would roll a set of three dice. If one wound is caused, pick up another two dice roll those, etc. Save works with units with mixed armour saves.
> 
> Look out Sir happens before armour saves.


But not in case of instant killing wounds.


----------



## asianavatar

> But not in case of instant killing wounds


Yes, sorry forgot to mention that.

Overall, I guess the system deals with last editions wounds spiting crap, but it kind of sucks that my cool looking squad leader now sits at the back of a unit of guys, instead of the front. Also, if you have a mix squad with different saves, setting them up to alternate in saves based on closeness gives you somewhat wound splitting shenanigans.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Hellgore said:


> They explicitly say that it takes longer but it is assured this way that every model makes most use of its save. And it's only in this special case.


Their admission doesn't shorten it though lol. I mean I agree you do get a better chance of survival which is good. Problem with this "special" case is with some armies you can apply it to most of the squads in the codex. Exarches, Wolf Guard, Deathwing with shields... (depending on wounding AP). I don't think I've ever used an army where every squad member had the same save...mostly because people like to lascannon terminators.


----------



## pantat

asianavatar said:


> Yes, sorry forgot to mention that.
> 
> Overall, I guess the system deals with last editions wounds spiting crap, but it kind of sucks that my cool looking squad leader now sits at the back of a unit of guys, instead of the front. Also, if you have a mix squad with different saves, setting them up to alternate in saves based on closeness gives you somewhat wound splitting shenanigans.


But not if i fly to the side and shoot you from there? Lol


----------



## Madden

See what you think
http://i.imgur.com/LMXb9h.jpg
From a source on warseer.


----------



## Voss

MadCowCrazy said:


> We just got another load of rulebooks to the toystore here, 5 6E rulebooks. So I will be picking one up later today. Not sure what hasn't been answered but if there are still some questions by the time I get back I will try to answer them.


Heard something about jump packs can only be used for movement or assault, but not both. That true?


----------



## asianavatar

> Heard something about jump packs can only be used for movement or assault, but not both. That true?


Did not remember seeing anything that stated that. Jet packs however can move 12 inches in the charge phase but not charge. Maybe that is where that idea came from.


----------



## pantat

Wow i just read the bit about jumping down from ruins or buildings! Basically get to jump from the top floor to anywhere within 3" of the base of the building. Takes an 'impact test' which is essentially a dangerous terrain test but with a -1 modifier for each full 3" fallen. 

Jump and jet packs ignore this rule if jumping more than 3"!

Edit: i made an error there. The jump infantry can go within 3" of the building but normal models can only jump straight down. 

Also, no armour saves


----------



## SilverTabby

Eleven said:


> Here's a little tidbit I don't think anyone has mentioned. If a unit has different speed values in one unit, they can move the maximum distance each model is allowed as long as they remain within unit coherency. kinda neat I guess, I can't think of an example where this is particularly useful.
> 
> Movement now effects units on a model to model basis, so you could move all the models in a unit of space marines and keep the lascannon still so it can still shoot. Neat.
> 
> Instant death now appears to be double the toughness after modifiers instead of before. Thanks nurgle and bikers.


Tyranid Primes in units of Hormogaunts instantly spring to mind. He'll start at the front, end up at the back, then detatch from the unit the turn they charge. Before, he'd slow the unit horrendously as he couldn't do the 3D6 run roll, stopping the entire unit doing it. 

The 'don't move the lascannon but shuffle the unit" is something I've ALWAYS wanted to see. Yay!


----------



## mcmuffin

asianavatar said:


> Did not remember seeing anything that stated that. Jet packs however can move 12 inches in the charge phase but not charge. Maybe that is where that idea came from.


The first paragraph states you may use the jump/ jet packs once per turn in either the moving or assault phase.


----------



## pantat

mcmuffin said:


> The first paragraph states you may use the jump/ jet packs once per turn in either the moving or assault phase.


Exactly. 

"jump units can use their jump packa once each turn to move swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase - they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn"


----------



## Voss

pantat said:


> Exactly.
> 
> "jump units can use their jump packa once each turn to move swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase - they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn"


Hmm. That changes things a bit. The rerolled charge distance and bonus hits are too much to give up, though. Unless you just have to get to an enemy unit 15-16" away.

Not a big deal for jet packs, since during the movement phase, the don't really do much (ignore difficult terrain but take dangerous terrain tests for starting/ending in terrain, I believe). Not worth trading the whole bonus move for.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

Voss said:


> Hmm. That changes things a bit. The rerolled charge distance and bonus hits are too much to give up, though. Unless you just have to get to an enemy unit 15-16" away.[/
> 
> Could be useful if you want to charge a target but it ends up dead before the assault phase anyway.


----------



## The Sturk

Voss said:


> Hmm. That changes things a bit. The rerolled charge distance and bonus hits are too much to give up, though. Unless you just have to get to an enemy unit 15-16" away.
> 
> Not a big deal for jet packs, since during the movement phase, the don't really do much (ignore difficult terrain but take dangerous terrain tests for starting/ending in terrain, I believe). Not worth trading the whole bonus move for.


Likely, people will do a 12" move first turn then save the pack for re-rolling second turn .


----------



## asianavatar

Thanks I missed that part. I guess depending on the distance to your target you will use one or the other. If you are countering a unit than the jump pack in the charge phase makes more sense. If you are bringing the fight to the enemy, the jump in the movement makes it more likely to get the charge off in the assault phase because you will be close, (which is almost how they are used now, so not that much loss).


----------



## Voss

The Sturk said:


> Likely, people will do a 12" move first turn then save the pack for re-rolling second turn .


In general, yeah. But on the other hand, with the change to rapid fire weapons, the movement phase actually matters for gun units- people may well be able to maneuver away from jump squads (especially with casualties being removed from the front) so the standard 12"+run, followed by move and assault on turn 2 may not even work if the opponent is running his army well.

Ah, tactics. Where have you been for so long. :grin:


----------



## asianavatar

Also, whether you moved is based on a model by model basis. Moving front lines guys out of charge range and leaving the back heavy weapons means they can still fire.


----------



## mcmuffin

So you use the jump packs to jet up the field for the first turn or two then you use them to shoot into combat. nice bit of tactical diversity, now i wish skyclaws weren't total ballbaggery


----------



## Zion

Wrath said:


> He will get a 4+ look out sir! roll to re-allocate.


Wolf Lords are ICs and get a 2+ from what I've heard. Only generic Characters (Sergeants, Superiors, ect) get the 4+.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm back, got the BRB in hand. If there are still questions unanswered I can try to answer them.

One thing I found interesting was how assault work.
Basically the attacker moves his units into base contact (unless shot to death from Overwatch), after this his models are moved as close as possible if they can't get into base contact. Same 2" gets to attack as in 5E. Now the Initiative Steps start, you start at I10 and go down to I1, skipping the ones where there are no initiative takers. Then the first player who has initiative gets to pile in 3" and then perform his attacks.

So if 10 SM change 10 Orks the SM player first gets to charge 2D6 and if he gets into base to base with at least 1 model he also gets to do a pile in at I4 of 3". This means that if there were models outside mele range they should have been able to get within range. You then resolve combat and wounds, killing the closest models first. At the Orks I2 they get to pile in 3" and do their attacks. At the end of the assault phase both players perform a 3" pile in again if there are models left.

I think this will help large units of 20-30 models allot.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Big nerf to Orks, when you charge more than 1 unit it's now called Disorganised charge, when you do this you do not get +1A for charging and you DO NOT GET +1S from Furious Charge. FC has no bonus Initiative now.

So Orks charging 2 or more units gets 3A each (2 profile +1 for 2CCW) at S3 instead of 4A at S4 I3 as they would now.


Another interesting bit is that if a unit is already engaged in combat you get no initiative penalty for charging trough difficult terrain. This could help high I units like Death Cults get to strike at their I without having grenades.


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Big nerf to Orks, when you charge more than 1 unit it's now called Disorganised charge, when you do this you do not get +1A for charging and you DO NOT GET +1S from Furious Charge. FC has no bonus Initiative now.
> 
> So Orks charging 2 or more units gets 3A each (2 profile +1 for 2CCW) at S3 instead of 4A at S4 I3 as they would now.
> 
> 
> Another interesting bit is that if a unit is already engaged in combat you get no initiative penalty for charging trough difficult terrain. This could help high I units like Death Cults get to strike at their I without having grenades.


What I'm hearing is that it pays to throw a weaker, or less armored unit (like Fernsian Wolves) into an enemy unit first (they soak up the enemy fire since you can only Overwatch once) and then a second unit can smash into the enemy unit with no problems.

Ripper Swarms charging before Hormagaunts or Raveners anyone?


----------



## The Sturk

Are Blasts and Barrages any different?


----------



## Wrath

Zion said:


> Wolf Lords are ICs and get a 2+ from what I've heard. Only generic Characters (Sergeants, Superiors, ect) get the 4+.


Oops! I read it as Wolf Guard.

I haven't seen the IC rule myself yet but many others who have had the book longer have confirmed it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Sturk said:


> Are Blasts and Barrages any different?


Nope, no change other than if you focus fire a unit you can't place the templates over a part of the unit you are not focus firing on.

Say 20 orks, 10 in cover, 10 outside. You can focus fire the ones outside cover, this means you can't place the blast marker on any of the models in cover, though it can still scatter upon them.

Regrouping:

If unit is above 25% you can regroup by performing a Leadership test

If unit is below 25% you need a heroic leadership roll of double 1s

If an IC is in the unit you always do the test as if there were 25% or more still alive.

You can regroup no matter how close enemy units are.

If charged you perform a regroup test as if at 25% or higher, if you succeed you regroup, if you fail the unit is destroyed.


----------



## asianavatar

> Are Blasts and Barrages any different?


NO they are pretty much the same. They cleared up twin linked blasts to rerolling both scatter and distance. Multiple barrages are more confusing as you have to calculate each blast separately for the sake of wound allocation.


----------



## scscofield

Clarify the Brother In Arms bonuses and perks please. 

Also is there any Heavy or Skyfire listings tacked onto the codex reviews of stat lines?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Infiltrate is same as before but you cannot charge on the first turn with an Infiltrating unit.

Scout is different: Infantry, Artiller, Walker or Monstrous Creatures can redeploy within 6" of it's current position.
All other unit types can deploy within 12".
Scouting units cannot charge on the first turn, nor can you disembark or embark as part of a scout redeployment.
So no more turbo boosting Valk/Vendetta full of storm troops with demolition charges.


Outflank is different: When a outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: exact same as before.
I see no restrictions to charging, so it seems you can still charge on the same turn you arrive. However, you can only arrive with outflank on turn 2 and 3, on turn 4 Ongoing Reserves come into effect and all units in reserve come on.
Turn 2 and 3 reserve roll is 3+, so if unlucky your units will not outflank.

Move Trough Cover allows you to auto pass Dangerous Terrain checks which is nice


----------



## Voss

MadCowCrazy said:


> Big nerf to Orks, when you charge more than 1 unit it's now called Disorganised charge, when you do this you do not get +1A for charging and you DO NOT GET +1S from Furious Charge. FC has no bonus Initiative now.


I think the multicharge is bad for almost everyone now. There are certain situations where it is useful, but multiple overwatch shots plus losing bonuses for charging makes for a much less effective situation overall. What I could see is doing it with a resilient or cheap unit to tie them up, then following up with real combat specialists. That way they don't get the overwatch shots on the units that matter (and the units that matter don't need grenades, apparently).


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Move Trough Cover allows you to auto pass Dangerous Terrain checks which is nice


Take that you Stupid C'Tan Shard.


----------



## asianavatar

I noticed with the rules for larger games, it doesn't make it clear whether you need to have the first org chart filled out to use the second org chart. For example in a 2000 point game I need 2 HQ and 4 troops as a min. If I have that, could I use the rest of my points for 6 heavies.


----------



## mcmuffin

Hey MCC, could you give us a rundown on how cavalry work mate? it is something i have yet to read about.


----------



## SilverTabby

MadCowCrazy said:


> Big nerf to Orks, when you charge more than 1 unit it's now called Disorganised charge, when you do this you do not get +1A for charging and you DO NOT GET +1S from Furious Charge. FC has no bonus Initiative now.
> 
> So Orks charging 2 or more units gets 3A each (2 profile +1 for 2CCW) at S3 instead of 4A at S4 I3 as they would now.
> 
> 
> Another interesting bit is that if a unit is already engaged in combat you get no initiative penalty for charging trough difficult terrain. This could help high I units like Death Cults get to strike at their I without having grenades.


I can see the point. It's easy to go "get 'em lads!" and charge Pell mell into one squad. Much harder to go "you lads charge dem, you charge dem, I'll get dese onez..." 

I'm sure there'll be situations where doing it anyway is good, like tying up multiple units with a fast expendable one whilst your other troops advance unmolested, then charge without overwatch.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

mcmuffin said:


> Hey MCC, could you give us a rundown on how cavalry work mate? it is something i have yet to read about.



12" movement
not slowed down by difficult terrain
treat difficult as dangerous instead
3D6 fall back
Fleet and Hammer of wrath USR


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> I can see the point. It's easy to go "get 'em lads!" and charge Pell mell into one squad. Much harder to go "you lads charge dem, you charge dem, I'll get dese onez..."
> 
> I'm sure there'll be situations where doing it anyway is good, like tying up multiple units with a fast expendable one whilst your other troops advance unmolested, then charge without overwatch.


Grots charge 2 units, tie them up and then a Mobs of Boyz hits each unit? I could see that.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

So now we charge in, then pile in and attack killing the front top initiative down... does sound sort of dramatic though I didn't mind how 5E did it. 

Though I haven't noticed it mentioned, but is the hammer of wrath; is that one initial attack, or per charging unit or one per defender model?


----------



## Zion

Karyudo-DS said:


> So now we charge in, then pile in and attack killing the front top initiative down... does sound sort of dramatic though I didn't mind how 5E did it.
> 
> Though I haven't noticed it mentioned, but is the hammer of wrath; is that one initial attack, or per charging unit or one per defender model?


I believe it's one per model in the charging unit (though some models like Dreadnoughts _*might*_ get multiple hits from charging), I haven't seen the rules yet to know for sure).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Jump units can only use their jump in the movement or in assault but not both.
Movement phase: up to 12" move
Assault phase: Re-roll charge distance

If used in charge phase they also get the Hammer of Wrath special rule (1 strike per model at base S at I10).

So do you move 12" and not get Hammer of Wrath or do you move 6" and get it (if you manage the charge distance)...


----------



## Zion

MadCowCrazy said:


> Jump units can only use their jump in the movement or in assault but not both.
> Movement phase: up to 12" move
> Assault phase: Re-roll charge distance


And if they jump in the movement phase they charge just like regular infantry if I read the charge distance chart correctly in those scans.


----------



## The Sturk

Zion said:


> And if they jump in the movement phase they charge just like regular infantry if I read the charge distance chart correctly in those scans.


If they move 12" (so jump in the movement), they only roll the 2D6 once for the charge and take what they get. Else I assume its move 6" and you can re-roll the charge.


----------



## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> If used in charge phase they also get the Hammer of Wrath special rule (1 strike per model at base S at I10).
> 
> So do you move 12" and not get Hammer of Wrath or do you move 6" and get it (if you manage the charge distance)...


Thanks! 1 strike per model regardless of what it is... well at least I can still run things down with bikers right?

Nice that jump troops can manage their movement like that too. May have to try using them now.


----------



## Necrosis

What does the bulky rule do?


----------



## Styro-J

I'd bet Bulky makes you take up more space in transports.


----------



## gally912

Bulky is 2, then theres extra and super bulky at 3 and 5 spaces respectively.

MadCowCrazy: Corrected the Extremely Bulky to 5: Bulky 2, Very Bulky 3 and Extremely Bulky 5. As could be seen in the Night Scythe transport rules in the Necron codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think someone asked about Witchblades earlier

Witchblade S User, Melee, Armourbane (2D6 armour pen), Fleshbane (always wounds on 2+).


----------



## Styro-J

So, how does that work for Singing Spears? I guess they are the same as they are now, since their rules are codex based.


----------



## scscofield

:: pokes MCC :: Brother in arms restrictions/perks ?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Battle Brothers are treated as friendly units
-Can be joined by Allied Independent Characters
-Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities and so on.
-However, note that not even BB can embark in allied transports.

Allies of Convenience, treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.
Blasts or other AoE effects can still scatter and kill them.
-Can't benefit from the Warlord Trait of an allied character
-Cannot be joined by allied ICs.
-Are not counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers.

Desperate Allies, treated same as Allies of Convenience in addition
One Eye Open: At the start of each of your Movement phases, each of your units within 6" of a DA unit must roll a D6, on a roll of a 1, that unit cannot move, shoot, run or assault that turn (they're too busy watching for betrayal).

The chart has been posted many times over, exact same as doubles tournament.


----------



## scscofield

Hmmm nothing defined about named ICs....


----------



## CattleBruiser

Do witchblades ignore armour? or are they like now and kinda bad against MeQ?


----------



## Necrosis

So what happens if I have an allied independent character join an allied unit. Can they then enter a transport?


----------



## scscofield

It says no in that post he just put up.


----------



## LukeValantine

I feel sorry for madcowcrazy having to address the same questions over rand over again.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

CattleBruiser said:


> Do witchblades ignore armour? or are they like now and kinda bad against MeQ?


They do not, at least no the default profile listed in the rulebook. Most of the rules etc dont apply to anything we know of yet, will have to wait for the FAQs.

I'd say the game is almost unplayable without the FAQs as you wont know what units have what rules.


I think this is new, Walkers can't do Death or Glory. So you can ram a walker without the fear of it attacking you back, it gets to attack you in the assault phase though.


Seems like vehicles can only shoot a single unit at a time, this sucks imo. Your sponson weapons should be able to shoot different targets, heavy bolter upgrade for Valk or was it Vendetta is still useless as you can never draw LOS from both of them to the same unit.


----------



## scscofield

Interesting tidbit I saw elsehwere, not sure if it has been mentioned. The shooting player chooses which set of wounds gets saved first. If you have a pile of bolter shots, a few melta shots and some plas you can tell the defender the order of the wounds he has to make the saves on.


----------



## Wrath

scscofield said:


> Interesting tidbit I saw elsehwere, not sure if it has been mentioned. The shooting player chooses which set of wounds gets saved first. If you have a pile of bolter shots, a few melta shots and some plas you can tell the defender the order of the wounds he has to make the saves on.


yep but you choose by group.

In this case you have 3 groups. you choose a group resolve all saves, then choose next group resolve, then last group.

<mind you this is a VERY simple example! The groups are actually broken down into AP and strength>


----------



## Allos

In 5th IC chars counted as having Move though cover, and skilled rider. is this still true for 6th?

And If so what does Skilled rider give, if as MCC put"Move Trough Cover allows you to auto pass Dangerous Terrain checks which is nice "?


----------



## Karyudo-DS

CattleBruiser said:


> Do witchblades ignore armour? or are they like now and kinda bad against MeQ?


Bad? You almost always get wounds! I've taken down dreadnaughts with them too. Sure most units get their saves but still seems alright to me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Someone with the rulebook, look at page 397, The Hell Feaster. Is this what the new Chaos Dreadnought will look like? All the other pics there seems to correlate with current models but I've never seen one like that dread before. Can someone post a scan of it?


----------



## LukeValantine

Kinda like how the DP was sighted in codecies and WD a year before its release.


----------



## scscofield

Lawl!

Under the Pistol Weapons description

Gunslinger: All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase. This follows the normal rules for shooting. 

So you can double tap then assault and count as having two CCW since they count as CCW in CC.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Allos said:


> In 5th IC chars counted as having Move though cover, and skilled rider. is this still true for 6th?


IC seems to have no special USRs at all.

They have a 2+ Look Out Sir
Heroic Morale which means a unit they are joined to can roll for regrouping as if they were 25% or more (normal leadership).

Joining and leaving units is the same as 5th. They dont confer or get any special rules form units they join, unless the rule does so (which allot of them do).

If a unit gains a good or bad effect the IC is also affected.

This is it, this is all ICs get.

They also have the rules of normal characters which include challenges, precision shots and strikes (rolls to hit on a 6 can be assigned to anyone you want).

In challenges you can do Glorious Intervention, basically if your character is fighting a Grot can decide to come to the Herders aid. It has to do an I test, if successful it fights instead of the Grot Herder that round. If failed nothing happens.

IC dont seem all that special but tons of USRs are now unit based instead of model based.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LukeValantine said:


> Kinda like how the DP was sighted in codecies and WD a year before its release.


Kinda, it's more like a drawn illustration...

Here is the picture in question


----------



## Necrosis

Dangerous terrain now allows Armour saves. Take that again you stupid c'tan shard.


----------



## SilverTabby

LukeValantine said:


> Kinda like how the DP was sighted in codecies and WD a year before its release.


It was made almost 2 years before it's release. Mounted daemonettes were made a long time before their release too. Sometimes things get hoarded for when they can do a bigger splash release.



scscofield said:


> Lawl!
> 
> Under the Pistol Weapons description
> 
> Gunslinger: All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase. This follows the normal rules for shooting.
> 
> So you can double tap then assault and count as having two CCW since they count as CCW in CC.


No wonder the price on Seraphim came tumbling down, if anyone with two pistols gets that rule. 

However, how many units can actually choose to have 2 pistols? Makes sense of a couple of unit sergeant entries where you can choose which weapon to replace with, oooh, say a Plasma Pistol...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

SilverTabby said:


> However, how many units can actually choose to have 2 pistols? Makes sense of a couple of unit sergeant entries where you can choose which weapon to replace with, oooh, say a Plasma Pistol...


I honestly can't think of any other unit than Seraphim, unless you give your sergeant models another pistol. If you can replace bolter or CCW with a pistol.
BA Vanguard vets can do this, they can replace bolt pistol and chansword with flamer, plasma, infernus pistols. So you could have 10 Vanguard Vets with 20 hand flamers, plasma pistols or infernus pistols....


MC are finally immune to dangerous terrain (they come with Move Through Cover) and Reaver Jetbikes can move 48", ignore Dangerous Terrain and always have a 4+ cover save going down to 3+ if they go flat out or turbo boost.


----------



## CattleBruiser

Necrosis, do you have the rulebook or are you hoping? If you get armour saves against dangerous terrain tests then i don't see marine players caring about dangerous terrain in the slightest. 1/6 chance to take a wound, then 1/3 chance to actually lose the model.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vanguard Veterans 115
5x more 100pts
10x jump packs 100pts
20x plasma or infernus pistols 300pts
Jump up and shoot down that 10 man Paladin squad in 1 turn= Priceless... well, 615pts but meh 


Did the math and it seems you kill 7 on average if they get a 5++ inv save or 5+ cover save. FNP and the rest is negated. I'm 100% sure they had a 5++ but can't find it in their rules.

Shots:	20 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	13.333 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	11.111 
Saved Wounds:	3.704 
Unsaved Wounds:	14.815 
Models Killed:	7.407


----------



## Necrosis

CattleBruiser said:


> Necrosis, do you have the rulebook or are you hoping? If you get armour saves against dangerous terrain tests then i don't see marine players caring about dangerous terrain in the slightest. 1/6 chance to take a wound, then 1/3 chance to actually lose the model.


I have recently gotten the rule book (like 2 or 3 hours ago).


----------



## Bayonet

Are there any Flyers listed for A) the Space Wolves and/or B) for Armies that don't yet have a flyer?


----------



## Necrosis

I have not seen any new units introduce. That being said Missile Launchers now have a new shot that is Strength 7 Ap 4 and hits flyers on their normal bs.


----------



## shaantitus

I am not sure if anyone has commented on this one. The rule book is up on the gw site, and the price in australia is $124. Fucking madness.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bayonet said:


> Are there any Flyers listed for A) the Space Wolves and/or B) for Armies that don't yet have a flyer?


Nothing new is listed in the Appendix, all it contains is the unit stats for every unit in the game currently and vehicle Hull Points.

There is only 1 entry that is "new", SM have the Stormraven Gunship listed though they can't currently use it.
It has the Stormtalon as well but that's to be expected.



boreas said:


> But there can be some allocation shenanigans still. If the closest(s) models have a sword, they have a 4++ save. And there's always the odd chance that a single model will make more than 1 save (depending on how exactly those are distributed. It's complicated statistical math, here with the odd of multiple negative being multipliers rather than addition, etc). So 3-7 dead, pretty good! Unfortunately, the 3-7 charging back might just wipe off the vets...


Was using the Infernus Pistol stats at S8 AP1 as that would cause ID and ignore FNP etc on the Paladins. I thought the sword 4++ was only in assault. Im sure there is all sorts of shenanigans you can do to prevent wounds but have fun charging those vets as well since they get to make another 20 infernus shots on you (unless they got shot to pieces first).


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> Vanguard Veterans 115
> Shots:	20
> Hit Chance:	66.67%
> Hits:	13.333
> Wound Chance:	83.33%
> Wounds:	11.111
> Saved Wounds:	3.704
> Unsaved Wounds:	14.815
> Models Killed:	7.407


Actually:
Shots:	20 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	13.333 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	11.111 
Saved wounds: 3.704
Unsaved wounds:	7.4
Models killed: 3.7 (4) w/ plasma pistols OR 8 w/ infernus pistol (St8 IIRC). 

But there can be some allocation shenanigans still. If the closest(s) models have a sword, they have a 4++ save. And there's always the odd chance that a single model will make more than 1 save (depending on how exactly those are distributed. It's complicated statistical math, here with the odd of multiple negative being multipliers rather than addition, etc). So 3-7 dead, pretty good! Unfortunately, the 3-7 charging back might just wipe off the vets...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There is a new weapon type called Salvo Weapons:

Salvo weapons are essentially larger and more destructive Rapid Fire weapons.

Salvo weapons have two number on their profile (listed after their type) separated by a /. A model armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away. In this case, the number of shots is equal to the first number. If the model has not moved, it can instead fire a greater number of shots at a target up to the weapons maximum range. In this case, the number of shots is equal to the second number.

Models that shoot with Salvo weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault phase.

Shellstorm Cannon 48" S6 AP5 Salvo 2/4

I'm skimmed over the weapons appendix and I can't find a single weapon that has the Salvo rule.

Did a google search and the only thing I could find was this but it has nothing to do with the weapon above or Salvo.

All in all the new rulebook is almost useless until we get the new FAQs, sure you can still play but things might be very different once the FAQs come out. I really hope they come out tomorrow...




boreas said:


> But there can be some allocation shenanigans still. If the closest(s) models have a sword, they have a 4++ save. And there's always the odd chance that a single model will make more than 1 save (depending on how exactly those are distributed. It's complicated statistical math, here with the odd of multiple negative being multipliers rather than addition, etc). So 3-7 dead, pretty good! Unfortunately, the 3-7 charging back might just wipe off the vets...


Was using the Infernus Pistol stats at S8 AP1 as that would cause ID and ignore FNP etc on the Paladins. I thought the sword 4++ was only in assault. Im sure there is all sorts of shenanigans you can do to prevent wounds but have fun charging those vets as well since they get to make another 20 infernus shots on you (unless they got shot to pieces first).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh yeah, how the hell did we miss this?

Vehicles now suffer Gets Hot!
If you roll a 1 when shooting your vehicle suffers a glancing hit on a roll of 1,2 or 3...


----------



## OpTi

well i have a fun day at work tomorrow giving intro games of 6th to people, should be amusing tho. Hopefully i can't remember all the rules :/


----------



## Karyudo-DS

MadCowCrazy said:


> I honestly can't think of any other unit than Seraphim, unless you give your sergeant models another pistol. If you can replace bolter or CCW with a pistol.


Fun fact, pretty sure DA vets can have both pistols and plasma pistols...seemed silly till now.


----------



## Arcane

MadCowCrazy said:


> Scout is different: Infantry, Artiller, Walker or Monstrous Creatures can redeploy within 6" of it's current position.
> All other unit types can deploy within 12".
> Scouting units cannot charge on the first turn, nor can you disembark or embark as part of a scout redeployment.
> So no more turbo boosting Valk/Vendetta full of storm troops with demolition charges.


Can a Infantry unit with Scouts still confer it's Scouts ability to it's dedicated transport and move at the full speed of the vehicle during scouting? Or are they limited to 6" since it's technically the Infantry conferring the Scout move?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Arcane said:


> Can a Infantry unit with Scouts still confer it's Scouts ability to it's dedicated transport and move at the full speed of the vehicle during scouting? Or are they limited to 6" since it's technically the Infantry conferring the Scout move?


They would be able to redeploy 12" as a dedicated transport gains all the rules of the squads they are assigned to in terms of scout, infiltrate and outflank.

This is an interesting question though and probably one for the FAQ, but I'm 100% sure they could redeploy 12".

You can no longer move or use and special moves like turbo boost or anything like that. You simply move the unit 6" or 12" depending on the type of unit, be that 6" or 12" towards your opponents deployment side.

Scout is now basically a shitty version of Infiltrate, outflank is the only good part of Scout now imo.


----------



## Necrosis

Well you can still assault when you scout (unlike infiltrate).


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> Was using the Infernus Pistol stats at S8 AP1 as that would cause ID and ignore FNP etc on the Paladins. I thought the sword 4++ was only in assault. Im sure there is all sorts of shenanigans you can do to prevent wounds but have fun charging those vets as well since they get to make another 20 infernus shots on you (unless they got shot to pieces first).


Ah yes, the stand and shoot. Completely forgot about those  Goes to show, we'll have some catching up to do! They should finish of the termies if infernus are indeed used...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Necrosis said:


> Well you can still assault when you scout (unlike infiltrate).


"A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first turn."

It seems like Outflanking is the only rule that allows you to assault, probably because they come in on turn 2 and 3 (turn 4 and they walk on from your table edge). Scouts and Infiltrators can't assault during the first turn if they use their special rules.


----------



## Arcane

MadCowCrazy said:


> "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first turn."
> 
> It seems like Outflanking is the only rule that allows you to assault, probably because they come in on turn 2 and 3 (turn 4 and they walk on from your table edge). Scouts and Infiltrators can't assault during the first turn if they use their special rules.


Thanks for that clarifications. I use scout on my Immolators to roll up first turn and multimelta transports, so that is what I was concerned about.


----------



## asianavatar

> How do you define things like Relic Blades or other special CC weapons in various codexes


They will probably all get cleared up in FAQ's. They might be given special rules or slotted into one of the categories.


----------



## boreas

Don't know if that's been said, but artillery have toughness and wounds now?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, have fun charging 15 Burn boys or Lootas, 10 assault marines will have trouble surviving the Overwatch. It's not like the Orks care about their BS...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> Don't know if that's been said, but artillery have toughness and wounds now?


This only applies to Artillery units, of which I only know of 2. The one Eldar have that can be given to guardians and the Ork Big Gunz.
I dont know of any other Artillery units in the game.

Thunderfire Cannon is not artillery as it counts as AV10 if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Styro-J

Hell, have fun charging a full Seer Council. Especially now that they can Fortune AND Turbo Boost 48" in the same turn. 8 D3 Overwatch keeping the enemy at bay just might do the trick. And as far as I can see Psychic Hoods won't be the ones to stop the power.


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> This only applies to Artillery units, of which I only know of 2. The one Eldar have that can be given to guardians and the Ork Big Gunz.
> I dont know of any other Artillery units in the game.
> 
> Thunderfire Cannon is not artillery as it counts as AV10 if I'm not mistaken.


Page 142, Thunderfire cannon unit type artillery.


----------



## CattleBruiser

wait, what's the T of artillery? and how many wounds do they have?


----------



## Necrosis

Toughness 7 and 2 wounds. Also you use its toughness for the unit (unless I misread it).


----------



## Nisditil

Overwatch by a bunch of Necron immortals with tesla will suck now, as they need 6's to hit but on 6's they get 2 more D6's for wounds LOL....

Also I see they made Necron Flayed ones even more useless now.


----------



## mcmuffin

So wait, you can or cannot assault after outflank? This is so confusing.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mcmuffin said:


> So wait, you can or cannot assault after outflank? This is so confusing.


You CAN assault after outflank.
You CAN NOT assault on the first turn if you Infiltrate or Scout Redeploy (new name for scout move).


----------



## mcmuffin

Awesome, so wolf scouts aren't turds. Nor is the Ghazbomb


----------



## Wrath

MadCowCrazy said:


> You CAN assault after outflank.


Wait, it says in Reserves you cannot Assault when you enter from reserves.
P.125 Top left Bolded paragraph.

Outflank states that you enter as reserves. p. 40 top third paragraph under Outflank.

What am I missing here?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wrath said:


> Wait, it says in Reserves you cannot Assault when you enter from reserves.
> P.125 Top left Bolded paragraph.
> 
> Outflank states that you enter as reserves. p. 40 top third paragraph under Outflank.
> 
> What am I missing here?


Hmm, haven't read that far yet. Guess I'm wrong


----------



## Wrath

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, haven't read that far yet. Guess I'm wrong


no! You were suppose to right, and tell me your secrets. =]


----------



## lockeF

Damn. No assaulting after outflanking or infiltrating. Genestealers just lost a lot of usefulness.


----------



## Rohan the everlasting

Anyone notice that you can use meltabombs against monstrous creatures
Lol


----------



## Necrosis

Rohan the everlasting said:


> Anyone notice that you can use meltabombs against monstrous creatures
> Lol


Veteran Guardsmen squad with demolition upgrade. Watch as the deadliest monstrous creatures runs away from guardsmen.


----------



## pantat

Wrath said:


> Wait, it says in Reserves you cannot Assault when you enter from reserves.
> P.125 Top left Bolded paragraph.
> 
> Outflank states that you enter as reserves. p. 40 top third paragraph under Outflank.
> 
> What am I missing here?


True. Seems nothing can assault after entering from reserve at all now. But the paragraph does start with "unless stated otherwise". So i'm guessing some FAQs or a new codex could allow certain units to still charge after assaulting. Until then, genestealers will just be shot off the board when they arrive!


----------



## SilverTabby

I may have to equip as many of my nids who can have them with some sort of gun. Otherwise they will lose out more than before if charged. 

I shall have to plan better than "get there as fast as possible and charge". This pleases me. KEEN! Hopefully my book will be with me today, then I'm going to spend a week reading it cover to cover...


----------



## scscofield

:: taps foot and glares at GW site waiting for FAQ/Errata ::


----------



## Bayonet

I ordered mine with the £10 super special delivery only to be told the courier doesn't work weekends so I can expect mine Tuesday...

Lovely.


----------



## pantat

Bayonet said:


> I ordered mine with the £10 super special delivery only to be told the courier doesn't work weekends so I can expect mine Tuesday...
> 
> Lovely.


Demand a refund!


----------



## Bayonet

pantat said:


> Demand a refund!


I did and they obliged thankfully, bloody stupid though!


----------



## pantat

Bayonet said:


> I did and they obliged thankfully, bloody stupid though!


Just as well! Annoying you have to wait until tuesday now tho!


----------



## Wrath

FAQs are up.


----------



## pantat

Wrath said:


> FAQs are up.


Cheers!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GET YOUR FAQs HERE!!


----------



## boreas

NDK is a Jump Monstrous Creature!? WTF, GW, is that a MC creature with a jump pack or a Flying MC?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wow, Night Scythes...
Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 36". If the Night Scythe moves more than 24" in the same turn, the disembarking unit can only fire Snap Shots.

How does the Pharao rule work with this as it gives a unit Relentless?

Warscythe, S2+, AP1, Armourbane.... So a Lord has S7, roll 2D6 for armour pen and does +2 on the damage chart... ouch...

Mindshackle scarabs can be used specifically to target characters in challenges  So go ahead, challenge me 

Whip Coils confuse me now...
As a set value modifier the Whip Couls effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.

So does this mean GKs get their +2I from their halberds or not?


----------



## Dawnstar

Combat Squads:

A ten-man unit with this special rule can break down into two five-man units called combat squads.

You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before deployment. A unit split into combat squads is now two separate units for all game purposes... Note that two combat squads split from the same unit can embark in the same transport vehicle, providing its transport capacity allows.

:shok:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Old FAQ

Q: Can I take a flickerfield save against becoming
immobilised from a Dangerous Terrain test? (p63)
A: No. The save from a flickerfield can only be taken
against glancing and penetrating hits.

New FAQ
A: Yes


----------



## pantat

Dawnstar said:


> Combat Squads:
> 
> A ten-man unit with this special rule can break down into two five-man units called combat squads.
> 
> You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before deployment. A unit split into combat squads is now two separate units for all game purposes... Note that two combat squads split from the same unit can embark in the same transport vehicle, providing its transport capacity allows.
> 
> :shok:


This very much caught my eye too!! This means my missile launcher combat squad can stay in the vehicle and snap fire as well as movin the melta gunner closer!


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## spanner94ezekiel

So essentially there's not much point in Flickerfields now then? Night shields however, are now awesome.


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## Dawnstar

pantat said:


> This very much caught my eye too!! This means my missile launcher combat squad can stay in the vehicle and snap fire as well as movin the melta gunner closer!


I admit, I was thinking more along the lines of shenaniganry with a Land Raider/Stormraven but that definitely works too


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## MadCowCrazy

Hydra Flak Tank, Hydra Autocannon
Add the Skyfire special rule to the Hydra Autocannon's type.

Well, this was expected but what's interesting to know is that weapons with the Skyfire rule can only snap shot at non flying units or vehicles. So it will be allot harder to use the Hydra for anti tank/infantry...


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## pantat

Dawnstar said:


> I admit, I was thinking more along the lines of shenaniganry with a Land Raider/Stormraven but that definitely works too


Ooh yes that would be good too! Move in with the raider, shoot the shit out of everything and then assault 2 separate units with 2 of your own


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## MadCowCrazy

spanner94ezekiel said:


> So essentially there's not much point in Flickerfields now then? Night shields however, are now awesome.


Hmm? The Flickerfields got better...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

So what happens to a farseer with Spirit Stones. does he become Mastery Level 2? If not, what's the point in taking them then?


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## spanner94ezekiel

AFAIK the 5+ ignoring damage thingy has been replaced by the Jink rule? Or am I wrong (likely, lol)?


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## Grokfog

Has anyone else noticed the universal special rule "Brotherhood of Psykers/*Sorcerors*" ? I'm thinking that could be a hint towards an eldar/chaos unit made up of psykers similar to Grey Knights?


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## nevynxxx

Hmm, from the Tau FAQ, things that reduce the unit's BS to 1 don't affect seeker missiles, they still work at BS5. Does that mean they are decent anti-flier defence?


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## SilverTabby

The Hydra may be good at anti-flyer and less good at anti-infantry, but you still get a heavy bolter, and rerolls to get those 6s. And it's dirt cheap.

Can anyone who has access to an actual PC rather than a phone see if there is now a PDF copy of the Sisters Codex on the site anywhere, or if I have to have words with the Studio...


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## Dawnstar

Grokfog said:


> Has anyone else noticed the universal special rule "Brotherhood of Psykers/*Sorcerors*" ? I'm thinking that could be a hint towards an eldar/chaos unit made up of psykers similar to Grey Knights?


I'd be surprised if Thousand Sons units don't gain this in some form



SilverTabby said:


> Can anyone who has access to an actual PC rather than a phone see if there is now a PDF copy of the Sisters Codex on the site anywhere, or if I have to have words with the Studio...


Quick search on the GW site leads me to believe that you might need to have a few words with the Studio..


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## AwesomusPrime

nevynxxx said:


> Hmm, from the Tau FAQ, things that reduce the unit's BS to 1 don't affect seeker missiles, they still work at BS5. Does that mean they are decent anti-flier defence?


Don't you still have to hit the flyer with a markerlight at BS1 to fire the Seeker Missile? My codex is downstairs and I have the stomach flu so I could be messing that up, I never use Seeker missiles.


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## boreas

Techmarines can restore hull points... Those are going to sell! Bonesword not FAQed, so still ignores armour. That should rejoice nids players!


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## pantat

SilverTabby said:


> The Hydra may be good at anti-flyer and less good at anti-infantry, but you still get a heavy bolter, and rerolls to get those 6s. And it's dirt cheap.
> 
> Can anyone who has access to an actual PC rather than a phone see if there is now a PDF copy of the Sisters Codex on the site anywhere, or if I have to have words with the Studio...


This not it...? 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420317a_Sisters_of_Battle_6th_Ed_V1.pdf


----------



## nevynxxx

AwesomusPrime said:


> Don't you still have to hit the flyer with a markerlight at BS1 to fire the Seeker Missile? My codex is downstairs and I have the stomach flu so I could be messing that up, I never use Seeker missiles.


Ah, yes, that's the bit I'm missing! Thanks.


----------



## nevynxxx

pantat said:


> This not it...?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420317a_Sisters_of_Battle_6th_Ed_V1.pdf



That's the FAQ.....


----------



## SilverTabby

pantat said:


> This not it...?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420317a_Sisters_of_Battle_6th_Ed_V1.pdf


You have to have the White Dwarf army list to use that FAQ, which is no longer legally available as you can't order the WD it came in. I doubt Games Dev are aware of this (once it's written, selling / distributing it is not their job), so I'll nudge them to see if a PDF version can be made available.


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## boreas

SilverTabby said:


> You have to have the White Dwarf army list to use that FAQ, which is no longer legally available as you can't order the WD it came in. I doubt Games Dev are aware of this (once it's written, selling / distributing it is not their job), so I'll nudge them to see if a PDF version can be made available.


Also, this whole 6th ed. rules and FAQs is going pretty well. No major fuck-ups of general discontent as far as I can read on the major boards. Pass on my congrats to the team!


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## nevynxxx

SilverTabby said:


> You have to have the White Dwarf army list to use that FAQ, which is no longer legally available as you can't order the WD it came in. I doubt Games Dev are aware of this (once it's written, selling / distributing it is not their job), so I'll nudge them to see if a PDF version can be made available.


I really doubt you will see a free PDF. There is hope with the digital stuff on iTunes. If they put the Sisters Codex on line for free, it just opens up *every* other army's players to demanding the same.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's stupid, and think the codices should be available as freely as possible just to remove the barrier to entry and sell more models, but hey ho....


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## Wrath

boreas said:


> Also, this whole 6th ed. rules and FAQs is going pretty well. No major fuck-ups of general discontent as far as I can read on the major boards. Pass on my congrats to the team!


Tau are still in shock. give us a second.


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## LukeValantine

I can count one fuck up so far. Both kharn and typhus are int1 in CC apparently (Who else couldn't give less of a fuck that they get +1 str?).

On the plus side almost no nurgle model can be instant gibed unless by a force weapon or rail gun.


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## Eleven

boreas said:


> Also, this whole 6th ed. rules and FAQs is going pretty well. No major fuck-ups of general discontent as far as I can read on the major boards. Pass on my congrats to the team!


well, i'm going to be playing 6th edition all day today and tomorrow. I'll report back all the problems I find that the FAQ failed to address. i'm sure there will be at least a few.


----------



## Callistarius

LukeValantine said:


> I can count one fuck up so far. Both kharn and typhus are int1 in CC apparently (Who else couldn't give less of a fuck that they get +1 str?).


Add Dante (he of the surgical hit & run strike) to your list. "Hang on guys, I'll just be a while then we're out of here." At least he'll be STR 7 on the Furious Charge.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

MadCowCrazy said:


> Whip Coils confuse me now...
> As a set value modifier the Whip Couls effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.
> 
> So does this mean GKs get their +2I from their halberds or not?


The wording merely means this: As Whip Coils sets a characteristics value to a predetermined amount, it is applied after any other types of modifiers. In this case, it means that they have become better as GK nemesis halberds first apply their +2 modifier, then the Whip Coils sets them to 1. I would imagine, based on the wording, that Lashwhips and Banshee Masks work the same way.


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## Purge the Heretic

boreas said:


> Also, this whole 6th ed. rules and FAQs is going pretty well. No major fuck-ups of general discontent as far as I can read on the major boards. Pass on my congrats to the team!


Is that sarcasm? There are still holes all over the place.


----------



## pantat

nevynxxx said:


> That's the FAQ.....


Ah sorry. Misread the original post


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> You have to have the White Dwarf army list to use that FAQ, which is no longer legally available as you can't order the WD it came in. I doubt Games Dev are aware of this (once it's written, selling / distributing it is not their job), so I'll nudge them to see if a PDF version can be made available.


How do you "nudge" with a sword? :shok:


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## davespil

So you guys got your rulebooks now but no post about all the changes. Wassup with that? I figured the first would be updating the first post with all of the relevant data. You know, to take care of all the guys who didn't get their's yet or are waiting for the digital/rules only version.

How much of the rumors were correct?


----------



## Zion

davespil said:


> So you guys got your rulebooks now but no post about all the changes. Wassup with that? I figured the first would be updating the first post with all of the relevant data. You know, to take care of all the guys who didn't get their's yet or are waiting for the digital/rules only version.
> 
> How much of the rumors were correct?


Sorry about that. Got the book and then spent all of last night playing Shadowrun. I went to bed at dawn. I'm getting around to that soon though.


----------



## SilverTabby

nevynxxx said:


> I really doubt you will see a free PDF. There is hope with the digital stuff on iTunes. If they put the Sisters Codex on line for free, it just opens up *every* other army's players to demanding the same


Except everyone else's is in book form and readily available. Best I can do is point is out as see what happens. 


AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> The wording merely means this: As Whip Coils sets a characteristics value to a predetermined amount, it is applied after any other types of modifiers. In this case, it means that they have become better as GK nemesis halberds first apply their +2 modifier, then the Whip Coils sets them to 1. I would imagine, based on the wording, that Lashwhips and Banshee Masks work the same way.


Lashwhips are indeed the same, all sorts of awesome.


Purge the Heretic said:


> Is that sarcasm? There are still holes all over the place.


Such as? It's all very well saying that, but without examples to back it up...


Zion said:


> How do you "nudge" with a sword? :shok:


Imaginatively :wink:


davespil said:


> So you guys got your rulebooks now but no post about all the changes. Wassup with that? I figured the first would be updating the first post with all of the relevant data. You know, to take care of all the guys who didn't get their's yet or are waiting for the digital/rules only version.
> 
> How much of the rumors were correct?


I've got mine, but have been doing housework all day and am putting the kids to bed. Then have to sort more stuff, and may get to open it forr the first time at about 11 tonight. 

I intend to take a week or so reading it cover to cover, rather than skimming and missing things, such as the blanket rule on assaulting from reserves I'm told about.


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## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> Sorry about that. Got the book and then spent all of last night playing Shadowrun. I went to bed at dawn. I'm getting around to that soon though.


Oooh, which edition? I always played 2nd Ed, but am sorely tempted by the 5th I have sitting outside.

I miss all-night roleplay sessions. They were hardcore.


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## davespil

Zion said:


> Sorry about that. Got the book and then spent all of last night playing Shadowrun. I went to bed at dawn. I'm getting around to that soon though.


Not a problem, I was talking about all of the people on here discussing rules but not posting them and letting me know what I'm missing. Its ok though, I know how to get a glimpse now.


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## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Oooh, which edition? I always played 2nd Ed, but am sorely tempted by the 5th I have sitting outside.
> 
> I miss all-night roleplay sessions. They were hardcore.


4th. I missed all nighters too, but all the joits in my body didn't. Sore is a good way to put how I felt waking up.



davespil said:


> Not a problem, I was talking about all of the people on here discussing rules but not posting them and letting me know what I'm missing.


To give you an idea, the USR section is over 4 pages long. The oly weapon in the back of the book with Skyfire is the Flakk Missile and casualties always pull from the "front" (starting with the models closest to the ones initiating the damage).

Hey Silvertabby, see if you can talk the devs into giving the Sisters army the zealot rule while you're at it please.


----------



## davespil

So do you roll one save at a time until the guy in the front dies and then move to the next guy? I heard that argument a few days ago.


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## scscofield

That method is not going to be as bad as people are making it out to be. More often than not it will probably be done in groups as there won't be one super special dude out front. If there is then you roll until he dies, not really any different than what would have happened before with wound allocation crap. The amount of firepower that is going to be tossed around the board this will probably only slow the game down the first round of shooting at most unless the dice gods are fickle that day.


----------



## Arcane

boreas said:


> Also, this whole 6th ed. rules and FAQs is going pretty well. No major fuck-ups of general discontent as far as I can read on the major boards. Pass on my congrats to the team!


You mean like Flak missiles being listed as an option but no actual existing missile launchers being able to use them? Awesome work GW, bravo. :clapping:


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## Zion

davespil said:


> So do you roll one save at a time until the guy in the front dies and then move to the next guy? I heard that argument a few days ago.


There is a little sidebar on how to do it quickly for units with mixed armor saves. The example given has a number of normal Ork Boyz and a Nob in 'Eavy Armor all facing potential wounds. First a number of wounds are counted out for the boyz and are rolled. Then starting from the front models are removed for each of the failed saves. Any that live take more of the wounds and roll again. Repeat until you run out of wounds. If you run out of Boyz you move onto the Nob and repeat (though the Nob also gets a 4+ to allocate to a nearby model in the unit with the Look Out Sir! so actually gets a 4+, then his armor save against each wound if the Look Out Sir! fails, if it passes a nearby Boy takes the wound instead. In a unit with more than one character you can actually use Look Out Sir! rolls to move wounds from one character to another, but can't do it more than once).

For the record (from the Guard FAQ), the Bodyguard's "Look Out - Arghh!" rule now automatically passes the "Look Out Sir!" roll, but the wound can only be allocated to a Bodyguard model.


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## Vhalyar

Arcane said:


> You mean like Flak missiles being listed as an option but no actual existing missile launchers being able to use them? Awesome work GW, bravo. :clapping:


It seems to me like something that will show up in the future.

Unless you think it's ok to allow marines to dominate flyers, since they are the only ones who can bring huge quantities of them? Longfangs need a buff, you're right


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## nevynxxx

SilverTabby said:


> Except everyone else's is in book form and readily available.


Oh, I agree! 

I'm just saying that I'll be surprised if they'd rather hear 95%+ of the player base shouting "Waaagghh they get a free codex, I want one too!!" rather than the small minority of people who want to play Sisters and haven't managed to get the White Dwarf shouting for a codex.


----------



## mcmuffin

so yeah, autolose to flier spam is going to be my general them for this edition, thanks GW for not giving any SW stuff skyfire. good stuff


----------



## scscofield

I still plan to spam the shit out of LF ML spam to deal with fliers.


----------



## mcmuffin

wooo, 2-3 hits per turn, then trying to glance and then them failing their cover save. so maybe a flier per turn

phenomenal. off to guard.


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## SilverTabby

Arcane said:


> You mean like Flak missiles being listed as an option but no actual existing missile launchers being able to use them? Awesome work GW, bravo. :clapping:


Oh ye of little faith. Would it preferable to bring out a rulebook that has all the same things and rules in and means new codeces will just be rehashes of the old ones, or one that allows for future growth, new stuff and new possibilities?

Two of the ones claiming they are worst hit are rumoured to be being released this year. 
With the rumoured rules such as 'zealot' (I have yet to get my rulebook out) I have no doubt they have been placed there for armies such as BT and SoB. 
Forgeworld are going to have a field day with this.
Isn't there a larger version of the Stormtalon that any marines are allowed, that's bristling with weapons?

With Tau, Eldar and Templars all rumoured for next year, we'll shortly be down to no-one really having a problem with the new stuff. I would love to add SoB to that list, but being realistic we're likely to be last on the list. Stupid catch22 release cycle *grumble* *shrugs*

Anyway, time for bed and some reading...


----------



## boreas

Purge the Heretic said:


> Is that sarcasm? There are still holes all over the place.


Nope... A thorough reading of 6th ed. have my gaming group exicited. Way better than 5th ed. In fact, lots of 5th ed. hole plugged, plus great new rules (challenges, flyiers, etc.). FAQs seem to patch thing up decently as far as our IG, SM, GK, Nids and Orks are concerned.

All in all, a MUCH better transition than when 5th happened. I'm not, by a far margin a GW fanboy (and Silvertabby can confirm  ). 

So, perfect? No, very good? Yes. Which is a lot better than what I'm used to from GW.

Phil


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> With the rumoured rules such as 'zealot' (I have yet to get my rulebook out) I have no doubt they have been placed there for armies such as BT and SoB.


That wasn't exactly a rumor. It's the last Special Rule on page 43. It gives Hatred and Fearless to the affected unit (which only needs -1- model in it with this rule to benefit from it).

EDIT: It seems the dreaded blue screens of death are continuing to plague my progress. As such I will not be continuing to attempt to post the missing USRs. Sorry, but the third time I got BSOD and lost what I'd typed was enough to make me give up. I'll confirm that from what I've ready that there is a lot more correct that people think there is though. If I can regain the motivation I'll try again, but honestly with so many books floating around we're well past "rumors" at this point and there is so much to read still that I don't think anyone can fully list all of the changes yet.


----------



## lockeF

Did anyone else realize that when they are describing each army in the BRB (i.e., Tyranids, Guard, Sisters, Marines), they specifically detail Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Codex Space Marines. Not Black Templar.

In fact, models painted in the Black Templar scheme are featured under Codex Space Marines - could this mean they are losing their codex and just being put in the vanilla dex? Perhaps its nothing important, just a thought.


----------



## Zion

lockeF said:


> Did anyone else realize that when they are describing each army in the BRB (i.e., Tyranids, Guard, Sisters, Marines), they specifically detail Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Codex Space Marines. Not Black Templar.
> 
> In fact, models painted in the Black Templar scheme are featured under Codex Space Marines - could this mean they are losing their codex and just being put in the vanilla dex? Perhaps its nothing important, just a thought.


I've go an alternate theory: they are overhauling the codex and didn't want to include something that was changing (possibly dramatically).


----------



## SilverTabby

Whilst skimming the USR section last night, I noticed something about a good proportion of them. 

They all have the wording "If at least one model in the unit has (x), the unit can..."

Which means ICs will confer whatever they have on their whole unit. This includes Scout, which also confers outflank, and to a transport. Vice versa, units will confer the rules to ICs that join them.

I have yet to read the other sections to find out if another ruling contradicts that, but it's what's implied from this section. Which is cool! Want Synapse on the back of the board? Send a Prime in with your 'Stealers. Or the Parasite, who can then go flying off...

Another that made me grin - poison. It's 4+ *unless you'd need a lower roll*, and still rerolls if you have the same / higher strength. Guns count as S1, but in combat? Yay!


----------



## lockeF

Zion said:


> I've go an alternate theory: they are overhauling the codex and didn't want to include something that was changing (possibly dramatically).


Possibly (I know I would be more helpful with the page numbers, but I don't have the book right now), but it was just left out of the fluff section. I can't imagine the fluff would be dramatically changed. You know, when the book is just detailing the fluff behind each army and providing pictures as examples of possible paint schemes.


----------



## yanlou

Can someone confirm if the Khorne Berzerkers in the picture on page 387 are conversions or a possible new kit. 
Thanks


----------



## Brother Droopy

Yanlou, I don't see anything on that that I can't make out of a CSM box and a Zerker box. Am I missing some bits that are different?


----------



## unxpekted22

lockeF said:


> Possibly (I know I would be more helpful with the page numbers, but I don't have the book right now), but it was just left out of the fluff section. I can't imagine the fluff would be dramatically changed. You know, when the book is just detailing the fluff behind each army and providing pictures as examples of possible paint schemes.


It might also be because Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels are all Legion chapters. Technically black templars are supposed to be a codex marine chapter, but they became the largest and one of the most unique.

I dont think we should start throwing out the idea of GW getting rid of them at this point in time.


----------



## lockeF

unxpekted22 said:


> It might also be because Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels are all Legion chapters. Technically black templars are supposed to be a codex marine chapter, but they became the largest and one of the most unique.
> 
> I dont think we should start throwing out the idea of GW getting rid of them at this point in time.


You know what, that makes a lot of sense. I forget a lot of the time that they are an imperial fist decedent. It was merely speculation, I really doubt they would get rid of a whole army. Especially one as popular as BT.


----------



## unxpekted22

Roll two dice every time you try and assault? What....the fuck?


----------



## yanlou

Brother Droopy said:


> Yanlou, I don't see anything on that that I can't make out of a CSM box and a Zerker box. Am I missing some bits that are different?


well some of the bits im seeing are not in the box, but it doesnt stop certain bits from been from fantasy or other kits, but looking at the image again see what looks like a arm from the chaos mutations kit with a zerker forearm attached and a arm from a chaos knight kit.


----------



## bitsandkits

yanlou said:


> well some of the bits im seeing are not in the box, but it doesnt stop certain bits from been from fantasy or other kits, but looking at the image again see what looks like a arm from the chaos mutations kit with a zerker forearm attached and a arm from a chaos knight kit.


i will take a look if my book arrives today


----------



## SilverTabby

yanlou said:


> well some of the bits im seeing are not in the box, but it doesnt stop certain bits from been from fantasy or other kits, but looking at the image again see what looks like a arm from the chaos mutations kit with a zerker forearm attached and a arm from a chaos knight kit.


There is one model (centre front) that has a grey-skinned upper arm and no shoulderpad. Other than that, it's all standard stuff I'm seeing...


----------



## Zion

unxpekted22 said:


> Roll two dice every time you try and assault? What....the fuck?


That's right, 2D6" Assault ranges.


----------



## SilverTabby

Averaging 7", maxing out at 12". That's better than 6" in my opinion. :wink:

Though I will miss my Raveners' guaranteed 12" charge...


----------



## Svartmetall

SilverTabby said:


> Though I will miss my Raveners' guaranteed 12" charge...


After the way they nommed my poor little Plague Marines last time, _I_ won't


----------



## Dawnstar

SilverTabby said:


> Averaging 7", maxing out at 12". That's better than 6" in my opinion. :wink:


I'm going to thoroughly enjoy using Mephiston 

12" move in the Movement phase due to Wings of Sanguinius as well as a 2D6" charge range with re-rolls to either/both dice due to fleet, and he can shoot as well. :grin:

May not be an increase on range, but at least it seems more reliable now


----------

