# have chaos marines ever worked with space marines?



## Jordo02 (Nov 21, 2008)

against a common invasion of some kind, like tyranid?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

the odds are pretty high. Probably through lords and old captain brothers. there were several of these back in the day, so they probably have.
there are two types
one where they fight an enemy and then fight each other afterwords to see the ultimate winner- probably most common
or long lost friends helping each other out and then leaving each other never to see each other again.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I'd say no.

The Imperium has co-operated with Xenos on occassion - particularly the Eldar, and relations with the Tau have not alsways been immediately hostile, and on one occassion some Orks rescued some Humans from a Nid attack (and in earlier versions of the fluff, Orks worked as mercenaries for Humans). But I can't think of a single instance where Chaos and Loyalist have worked together (though of course there could be some I don't know about), nor why they should. The Traitor Marines have deliberately turned away from the Emperor's Light - I can't see that there's any way back.

That's different from those Chapters who were led into error, but have repented, eg Chapters that joined the Badab uprising, who were judged foolish, but not Heretical, and had heavy penances imposed; but confirmed followers of Chaos? I can't see it.

:not getting how its possible cyclops:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm with Red Orc on this one. Chaos couldn't give a fudge about the Imperium, they're trying to defeat it after all.

Chaos are more likely to withdraw, and defeat the Nid invasion afterwards, or the remains of the Imperial Defence.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Technicaly they were fighting, before traitor legions declared emperor as enemy and killed off all royalists in their ranks xD also once a space marine captain didnt know he was fighting alongside chaos, when Lucius started killing his own squad and this guy came to help Lucius, thinking its traitors attacking.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

out all the space marine expeditions rolling around the galaxy there is bound to be a few that have sided with chaos for a battle a few times for survival.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

A loyalist would never side with Chaos. They would rather destroy Chaos and die in the attempt, than side with them, whether that meant dieing attacking the forces of Chaos, or in the face of an ork Waaagh/Nid Splinter Fleet.

Should they side with chaos, they will either join with them, or do like the Soul Drinkers and go renegade (rather than traitor). Should they return after siding with Chaos, they will be killed by the Imperium.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

yeah soooo.... im sure not chaos deities. But only the inquisition really keeps dabs on stuff like that. And there no way in hell they can. Chaos is also hard to define. Chaos is almost put to any space marine that does not belong to the empyream. Most of the "chaos" marine do not devote themselves to the chaos cause if you will.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Renegades (still technically Imperial Space Marines) do fight alongside Chaos warbands on occasion. And the Fallen Dark Angels fight for Chaos sometimes, while technically not being Chaos Marines.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> yeah soooo.... im sure not chaos deities. But only the inquisition really keeps dabs on stuff like that. And there no way in hell they can. Chaos is also hard to define. Chaos is almost put to any space marine that does not belong to the empyream. Most of the "chaos" marine do not devote themselves to the chaos cause if you will.


It's, "Imperium," not, "Empyream." Empyream is more of a dream land, other world, astral space, sort of like the warp. Start talking about the empyream and some folks are going to think you're talking about the warp. :wink:

But no, Chaos isn't that hard to define when it comes to who you are working with. If you work with a bunch of guys, no matter the reason, with a a ton of horns, spikes, eight-rayed stars, etc protruding from them, or working with former loyalists, or working with renegades, in the eyes of the Inquisition, those are ALL chaos. Anyone deemed, "excommunicatus traitoris," is deemed an obvious enemy of the Imperium, and at the very, very least, will draw some serious attention from the =][=.

And yeah, I agree, there are quite a few marines out there that don't devote themselves to the Ruinous Powers, but the inquisition doesn't really care. 

The Imperium as a whole looks at stuff like:

They have apples. They hate oranges. If there is another fruit out there, and it isn't an apple, then it MUST be an orange and MUST be discarded.

Ah yes...Imperial xenophobia/genocidal doctrines/intolerance... Doesn't matter *why* you've done what you've done, just that you have *done* it. :wink:


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## Fang127 (Jan 6, 2009)

It's hard to imagine the Loyalists siding with a Chaos Legion for anything. They're trying to destroy these guys, and these guys are trying to destroy them! When it comes down to it Space Marines would only stand and fight an incoming invasion for one of two reasons; It's their homeworld, or it's an Imperial world. Both reasons are the reasons why a Chaos Legion wouldn't help them - They want those planets to be destroyed!

I can see them both fighting the same thing, though, like if the Chaos Marines were trying to get something from the planet in need, but they wouldn't directly help the Loyalists, or even let them know they're there, and they'd never go out of there way to damage the invasion beyond what they need to to survive for their objective.

So no, I can't see Loyalists working with Chaos - Of course, this is ignoring the hinted stuff about the Alpha Legion. 

And any "Rebel" Chapter isn't a Loyalist chapter, because by the title a Loyalist chapter has to be loyal to the Imperium - If you've rebelled and no longer fight for them, how can you be a loyalist?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> yeah soooo.... im sure not chaos deities. But only the inquisition really keeps dabs on stuff like that. And there no way in hell they can. Chaos is also hard to define. Chaos is almost put to any space marine that does not belong to the empyream. Most of the "chaos" marine do not devote themselves to the chaos cause if you will.


Most chaos Marines do devote themselves to Chaos. Well, all of them do, actually. Hence 'Chaos' Marines.

If you're talking Renegade Marines (Fallen Angels, Soul Drinkers, etc), then yes, they might, but Loyalist Marines, never.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I agree, Imperial Marines would never side with Chaos Marines and visa versa. Loyalist troops would rather die than allying with Chaos in order to achieve victory. And Chaos Marines see imperials as ignorant, weak minded fools who deserve nothing better than death, they would never ally even if it would be mutually beneficial. 

I mean could you actually imagine a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer shaking hands with an Imperial commander? (I suppose it wouldn't have to go that far but still!)

It would never happen.

However allying with Xenos can be tolerated if the need is dire enough. On many occasions Imperials have allied with Eldar or Tau to defeat a more serious threat. And Chaos have been known to have fragile alliances with Orks for example (DoW: Winter Assault?), but as soon as the Imperials were out of the way went back against each other!


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I mean could you actually imagine a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer shaking hands with an Imperial commander? (I suppose it wouldn't have to go that far but still!)



Hell, I could even see a group hug between the Imperial Fists (I mean, really... who wears yellow???) and a Slaaneshi Lord. I think it'd go quite well, right up until the 'Fists commander tried to grope the Slaaneshi commander's ass, then it'd one of the most amusing slap fights in the history of slap fighting...

Back to serious-land... :biggrin:

Yeah, the imperials will allow a temporary alliance so as long as it gets the job done, and in that case, it'd be only in the most dire of circumstances. Severely outnumbered and their defeat means that their ultimate goal cannot be achieved, that sort of thing. Many more examples, but my brain is weary from the work week, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Chaos... Heh, yeah, Chaos will use anyone to further their own means. As CotE mentioned, Chaos allied with orks for a while, but to them, the orks were only another tool to be used to achieve their goals.

So, in conclusion to the original question, and the added deduction that either the imperium or chaos would ally with another race:

Imperium: Will ally with others if they are pigeon-holed into doing so. Doesn't mean they have to like it. Will never ally with chaos.

Chaos: Will ally with those who they feel they can use, regardless of who it is.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> A loyalist would never side with Chaos. They would rather destroy Chaos and die in the attempt, than side with them, whether that meant dieing attacking the forces of Chaos, or in the face of an ork Waaagh/Nid Splinter Fleet.
> 
> Should they side with chaos, they will either join with them, or do like the Soul Drinkers and go renegade (rather than traitor). Should they return after siding with Chaos, they will be killed by the Imperium.


Uh no, read abit about red corsairs, 3 chapters joined Huron in his rebelion against imperium and some space wolfes killed off their own and joined Huron in battle for wolf fenris, so no, space marines Tend to go evil.

So by knowing this, and realising that space marines are not walking saints of pure morality as they should be, its QUITE POSSIBLE that they would forget their ideals and join forces with chaos in case of, lets say, ork invasion, and then just gtfo away from each other, i mean there were cases of marines fighting alongside Tau and eldar already...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Uh no, read abit about red corsairs, 3 chapters joined Huron in his rebelion against imperium and some space wolfes killed off their own and joined Huron in battle for wolf fenris, so no, space marines Tend to go evil.
> 
> So by knowing this, and realising that space marines are not walking saints of pure morality as they should be, its QUITE POSSIBLE that they would forget their ideals and join forces with chaos in case of, lets say, ork invasion, and then just gtfo away from each other, i mean there were cases of marines fighting alongside Tau and eldar already...


I think Vaz ment that Loyalist forces wouldnt fight alongside Chaos forces when their loyal. In talking about Huron your talking about renegades/traitors.

And yes although Imperials have sided with Eldar/Tau quite a few times, Chaos is a completley different matter. Eldar and Tau are considered part of the 'Forces of Order' and actually share similar goals with the Imperium (although the Imperium would never admit this because their xenophobic!), but in dire enough circumstances Imperials will ally with Tau/Eldar or other 'friendly' aliens.

Chaos is different, Chaos doesn't care, Chaos wants to let the galaxy burn. 

To use an example if an imperial planet was being besieged by Chaos Forces then a hive fleet or an Ork Waaagh came along, the Chaos forces would either contine to fight the Imperials aswell as the new invaders, or withdraw and just come back later to mop up. Infact by helping the Imperials, even indirectly there working against themselves and their own objectives. They Would rather destroy the Imperials or leave them to get destroyed by others.


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

I think the only chaos legion that is even close to being able to commit to something like that without killing of a loyalist in process is probably the Black Legion but then again, which loyalist chapter would want to cooperate with the people who trashed the imperium a milennia ago?


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

MyI)arkness said:


> Uh no, read abit about red corsairs, 3 chapters joined Huron in his rebelion against imperium and some space wolfes killed off their own and joined Huron in battle for wolf fenris, so no, space marines Tend to go evil...


I'm not sure what the point is you're making; but I was pretty certain I'd dealt with this before.

1 - Huron rebelled aginst the Imperium; other SM chapters joined the rebellion; no-one, at this stage, had 'gone over to Chaos';
2 - the rebellion was defeated, _some_ SMs including Huron fled to the Maelstrom (thus proving they had 'gone over to Chaos') and some SMs who had taken part in the rebellion _but not gone over to Chaos_ recanted and were pardonned on the imposition of a penance;
3 - there is no way back for those who have 'gone over to Chaos' (Huron and the Red Corsiars will never be accepted back into the Imperium);
4 - those who are in error can recant their error, repent of their pride (usually), and take their punishment, thereby proving their worthiness.

:father confessor cyclops:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

vacantghost said:


> I think the only chaos legion that is even close to being able to commit to something like that without killing of a loyalist in process is probably the Black Legion but then again, which loyalist chapter would want to cooperate with the people who trashed the imperium a milennia ago?


Out of all the Chaos Legions (none of them would ally with the Imperium anyway) the Black Legion is the one least likely to ally with the Imperials.

They are the ones that hold the most hate for the Imperium (The Cult Legions and their daemon primarchs dont really care that much anymore, there mainly just concerned with the Great Game now).

Abaddon arguably still holds the most hatred for the Imperium, and therefore his Black Legion do. (Who killed Horus after all?!)

:good:


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## vacantghost (Feb 16, 2008)

-scratches head-
damn, i must have mistaken the black legion for... ... ... well some legion. I forgot the source but i remembered i read through a GW article talking about a chaos task force betrayed by half their men and started a civil massacre whilst trying to invade an imperial planet.

i'll try and pin down the source but apologies otherwise.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

vacantghost said:


> -scratches head-
> damn, i must have mistaken the black legion for... ... ... well some legion. I forgot the source but i remembered i read through a GW article talking about a chaos task force betrayed by half their men and started a civil massacre whilst trying to invade an imperial planet.
> 
> i'll try and pin down the source but apologies otherwise.


Was it definitely a Chaos Legion? or could it have been a renegade chapter?

:good:


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think Vaz ment that Loyalist forces wouldnt fight alongside Chaos forces when their loyal. In talking about Huron your talking about renegades/traitors.
> 
> And yes although Imperials have sided with Eldar/Tau quite a few times, Chaos is a completley different matter. Eldar and Tau are considered part of the 'Forces of Order' and actually share similar goals with the Imperium (although the Imperium would never admit this because their xenophobic!), but in dire enough circumstances Imperials will ally with Tau/Eldar or other 'friendly' aliens.
> 
> ...


Well there is no real line between "regegade" and "loyal", if so many chapters would rebel, than there is nothing from stopping them to side with their enemies for one day. I mean space wolves even killed thousand sons on Horus order and they are still loyal, so its definetly not impossible. 
As for chaos themselves - not all of them are so fanatical and stupid as abaddon, tzentch marines could just be searching for lost knowledge, word bearer could be going with their own agenda etc, you can make multiple scenarios where both sides would benefit from joining forces to survive, but yeh, i dont know any such real case:S


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> I'm not sure what the point is you're making; but I was pretty certain I'd dealt with this before.
> 
> 1 - Huron rebelled aginst the Imperium; other SM chapters joined the rebellion; no-one, at this stage, had 'gone over to Chaos';
> 2 - the rebellion was defeated, _some_ SMs including Huron fled to the Maelstrom (thus proving they had 'gone over to Chaos') and some SMs who had taken part in the rebellion _but not gone over to Chaos_ recanted and were pardonned on the imposition of a penance;
> ...


So basicaly a space marine chapter can side with chaos marines, and while they dont go over to maelstorm too, they can get pardoned later :so_happy:


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## safeinacell (Aug 27, 2008)

I don't think that an open alliance between the Traito Legions and Imperial forces would ever be likely, or even possible. There is far to much hatred and spilled blood under the bridge for them to come together, even in the face of annihilation.
However, it's not entirely beyond the realm of possibility that some of the more radical elements of the Imperium my engage in some covert operations, such as fast raids on isolated Tyranid forces, supply drops and intelligence passed on through plausible second parties. If it leads to the destruction of a hive fleet, then great, if the Chaos forces get overun, a bad result, but at least the Imperium has one less enemy to tackle.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

MyI)arkness said:


> Well there is no real line between "regegade" and "loyal", if so many chapters would rebel, than there is nothing from stopping them to side with their enemies for one day. I mean space wolves even killed thousand sons on Horus order and they are still loyal, so its definetly not impossible.


The thousand Sons were considered traitors at the time. The Space Wolves may have been tricked by Horus but at no point did they rebel or disobey orders.



> As for chaos themselves - not all of them are so fanatical and stupid as abaddon, tzentch marines could just be searching for lost knowledge, word bearer could be going with their own agenda etc,


Both Legions are more likely to support Abaddon than siding with loyalists.



MyI)arkness said:


> So basicaly a space marine chapter can side with chaos marines, and while they dont go over to maelstorm too, they can get pardoned later :so_happy:


No. 

The Badab war had absolutely nothing to do with Chaos. Huron and his men turned Chaos after the war.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Of course they work together. Let me take everyone back to Chaos 121, there once was a legion called the Alpha Legion, these marines turned to chaos and specialise in infiltrating loyal forces and turning the population of a planet of space marine force. They will commonly fight on the loyalists team for years before revealing there true chaos colours. They do work together even if the loyalist dont know it.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

MyI)arkness said:


> So basicaly a space marine chapter can side with chaos marines, and while they dont go over to maelstorm too, they can get pardoned later :so_happy:


You didn't read it, twice, did you?

So, no, completely wrong, smug smiley faces and all.

The Astral Claws were not "Chaos Marines".

Technically you could argue that the Red Corsairs are not "Chaos Marines" (they are however definately "Renegades"").

Even if they _are_ "Chaos Marines" now, they did not become so until _after they had fled to the Maelstrom_.

So, and let me make this perfectly clear, *no loyal Marine Chapters allied theselves with Chaos Marines*.

:already wondering how he's going to try to explain the same thing next time cyclops:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fluff'Ead said:


> The thousand Sons were considered traitors at the time. The Space Wolves may have been tricked by Horus but at no point did they rebel or disobey orders.


Indeed 



Fluff'Ead said:


> Both Legions are more likely to support Abaddon than siding with loyalists.


And yes although thats true, Its plausable that the Thousand Sons or a tzeetchian daemonic force could appear alongside Loyalists and actually 'help' them, given the nature of Tzeentch. "The Daemons of Tzeentch often plot and conspire against each other, and it is common for them to aid the enemies of rival Tzeentchian Daemons" 

I think this is the only plausable example of chaos forces indriectly aiding imperials. They would never ally for mutual benefit, an alliance of the above nature would only occur because of the nature of Tzeentch; infinite and eternal plots, even against ones own kind.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Fluff'Ead said:


> The thousand Sons were considered traitors at the time. The Space Wolves may have been tricked by Horus but at no point did they rebel or disobey orders.
> 
> Both Legions are more likely to support Abaddon than siding with loyalists.
> 
> ...


I never said they should go to open alliance, just a short siding for survival, without which Both sides would die out

As the wolf example - yes you are right, but i just want to point out, that if marines can so easily fight other marines, they might aswel leave their ideals of fighting chaos, for a short time sooner or later.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> You didn't read it, twice, did you?
> 
> So, no, completely wrong, smug smiley faces and all.
> 
> ...


Yes, but did you read my message twice? If they had sided with a chapter, that later became "chaos", and got pardoned, thats seriously close to having sided with chaos itself, and we are not even talking about official siding, just a battle alliance about which no one would prolly even know, because, as it seems, even marines tend to do evil things, so it wouldnt be unusual if they tried to hide that spot of their carrier from officials (and smug smiles are jsut for lolz :mrgreen


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

You are wrong if you this the red crosairs arn't chaos. They most definitley are. Any Legion that allows Chaos worship in their ranks is a chaos legion. If you deny that the red crosairs arn't chaos then you could also say, iron warriors, alpha legion, and other legions that have not devoted themselves to chaos are renegade. Plus they are in the chaos book

as for the chaos branding. The individual that said all the traitor marines are devoted to chaos. That is also false. One must look at the word "devote." Almost every other legion besides the word bearers have not devoted themselves to appeasing chaos. They have become traitor and have bent the will of chaos to their own means. But there not gonna go do something for the chaos gods unless they are benefiting from it. They think of themselves first.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I have a good one! The grey knight in hammer of daemons sided with chaos entities!!! There you go!!! BOOM!!! Not only did he side with chaos individuals he also sided with orks who basically had the khorne mark. SEE! For survival almost anything will ally with anything. Its a means to an end. If a grey knight could side with daemons, khorne worshipers, fanatics, and orks, then a space marine could very well and probably have sided with chaos marines for the means of survival.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

MyI)arkness said:


> ...a chapter, that later became "chaos", and got pardoned...


*Who the frell are you talking about?*

No Chaos Chapters were pardoned! As I have said three times already, in various ways, *there is no way back from the Maelstrom*.

Will you please both read, and at least try to understand, people's posts? I can't possibly see how we can make it any clearer. *No Chaos Marines have been pardoned!*

The chapters who were pardoned were *not* Chaos Marines. Even the chapters who were _not_ pardoned were, at the time of the Badab Uprising, *not Chaos Marines*.

No Chaos Marines were involved in the Badab Uprising. The question of Chaos involvement, Chaos Marines, Chaos Chapters, with regard to the Badab Uprising, is a *non-question*.

_If_ the Red Corsairs are considered 'Chaos Marines' now, that *does not mean* that the Astral Claws or the other Chapters in the Badab Uprising were Chaos Marines.

:thinking how to explain the same thing a fifth time cyclops:


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## keytag33 (Apr 20, 2008)

Red Orc allow me to give you my hammer of bashiness understandingness, some times that's all you need.

But to the point I agree with you the Badaab uprising was fought between _loyal_ forces and _rebel_ forces. No where was it stated that chaos marines where anywhere near there.

Now could the whispers of chaos caused the sould drinkers to turn erm...possible, but that dosen't mean their allies where tainted so to speak but where simply following a powerful and charasmatic orator. As such they can be pardoned as they never fell under the taint of chaos

Backing the Orc on this one.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I think everyone has to back the Orc, because he is right. The Astral Claws were not chaos warriors during the Badab period, they turned later. Any pardons granted at that time were not for Chaos Warriors but for Rebel Warriors, there is a huge difference.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I have read and re-read all of this about five times and I think I have the cause of the misunderstanding.

So; MyI)arkness, I apologise about becoming annoyed. I think, that part at least of our mutual incomprehension comes from my misunderstnding one of your posts. In my defence, I don't think the grammar is very clear, but I'm going to try to set out what I think you mean, and we'll see if it is; then, perhaps, we can all get on with our lives.

What I think you might have meant is this:

The Astral Claws and others rebelled against the Imperium; some of the rebels later recanted and were pardoned; those who did not recant became Red Corsairs Chaos Marines; does this not mean that those Chapters who recanted were allied with Chaos Marines?

And the answer, as Zondarian and Keytag have said, far more calmly than I, is that, at the time of the Badab Uprising, the Astral Claws were _not_ Chaos Marines. Just as, at the time of the Great Crusade, the Luna Wolves and Emperor's Children and the rest, were _not_ Chaos Marines. What happened later is not the fault of their one-time allies - either the Ultramarines and Blood Angels at the time of the Heresy, or the other Chapters (indeed, likely a few loyal Asreal Claws) at the time Huron fled to the Maelstrom.

It is the fleeing to the Maelstrom that marks Huron and the Red Corsairs - they could, like the other Chapters, have stayed to seek absolution through devotion to the Imperium, but they didn't. But at the time they led the other Chapters into error (and error was all it was in the beginning), they were not "Chaos Marines".

:much calmer now cyclops:


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

I'd have to say that any instances of Chaos Marines or Chaos Renegades aiding loyalist Space Marines would boil down to a three way fight with a very big enemy getting in the way. The Chaos and Imperial forces might not be shooting each other _yet_.

The Inquision has a term for Imperial forces helping Chaos forces: Falling to Chaos.

The forces of Chaos might not be so strict about the matter, but it would take a really good reason to make them help the forces which are going to attack them next. Then again, I suppose one warband could maneuver one of its rivals into that position in an attempt to eliminate two enemies--weaken or eliminate the rival and throw suspicion onto the Imperial forces.


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## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

they have worked together, pre-heresy......

But in all honesty I wouldn't see them directly working together with chaos as loyalists hate them with a passion. However I could see chaos using loyalists as tool, particularity alpha legion doing this. But it's not really team work as they end up fighting in the end, more like co-opetition.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> You are wrong if you this the red crosairs arn't chaos. They most definitley are. Any Legion that allows Chaos worship in their ranks is a chaos legion. If you deny that the red crosairs arn't chaos then you could also say, iron warriors, alpha legion, and other legions that have not devoted themselves to chaos are renegade. Plus they are in the chaos book
> 
> as for the chaos branding. The individual that said all the traitor marines are devoted to chaos. That is also false. One must look at the word "devote." Almost every other legion besides the word bearers have not devoted themselves to appeasing chaos. They have become traitor and have bent the will of chaos to their own means. But there not gonna go do something for the chaos gods unless they are benefiting from it. They think of themselves first.


As Red Orc has now explained he didn't say the Red Corsairs weren't chaos devoted because they obviously are *now*

His point was at the time of the Badab uprising they weren't Chaos Marines, they were just normal Rebels. They became 'Chaos Marines' after fleeing the to Maelstrom. 

Hmm... I would argue that all traitors legions are actually devoted to Chaos. Some may not know it, but they all are. They may try to use Chaos as a 'tool' to further there own objectives (Night Lords for example) but at the end of the day Chaos is actually using them as a tool.

The 4 Cult Legions can easily be described as devoted to Chaos
Word Bearers - most certainly!
Iron Warriors - I would also argue yes, Chaos has become their sanctuary and safe-haven, and of course Perturabo is a Daemon Prince!
Black Legion - Worship Chaos Undivided (not in the same sense as the Word Bearers though)
Alpha Legion - Loyality is in question. But certainly at least some of their number are devoted to Chaos
Night Lords - Try to use Chaos as a tool for their raids to spread fear etc, but they are actually the ones being used!


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Traitor Marines have deliberately turned away from the Emperor's Light - I can't see that there's any way back.





Red Orc said:


> there is no way back for those who have 'gone over to Chaos





Red Orc said:


> there is no way back from the Maelstrom


 Please tell me you mean there is no one back into the Imperium, for the path to redemption is never closed eternally and may it be that one day we who have fallen so far may rise once again into his light. 

I once created an army known as the Knights of Redemption, they have broken away from Chaos; but they can no longer return to the Imperium; but in their fluff it is said that few have surrendered for their past crimes against the Emperor some were executed immediately, some were tortured to death slowly and some were taken away by the Inquisition never to be seen again. Oh yes there is a way back.

anyways on with this thread

Imperial Marines and Chaos Marines working together :scratchhead: it would have to be the most drastic of situations, something far more threatening then an Ork Waaagh or Tyranid Hive Fleet, something that could threaten the Imperium and the Warp as a whole. The only thing that comes to mind are the Necrons; but they are few and scattered. 

Maybe a Necron Fleet threatens to destroy an Imperial world that is defended by valiant Imperial Marines. However there is something about this world something important to chaos and by the will of the Dark Gods they will send their devoted followers who shall aid the Imperium against this threat. Cooperation between both sides is at the very least cooperative and after it is over the last of the chaos marines still standing the ones that still have retained some of their honour give themselves over to be executed as their souls transcend into warp increasing the power of their cruel lords. 

Not very detailed; but it does present a possibility and please don't any of you say that chaos marines have no shred of honour, because I say otherwise


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

imntdead said:


> Please tell me you mean there is no one back into the Imperium, for the path to redemption is never closed eternally and may it be that one day we who have fallen so far may rise once again into his light.


There is a difference between Traitors and Heretics.

Traitors can never be forgiven. 

Heretics can be absolved through death.

- So for traitors the path to redemption (if you can call it that) is closed, not that they want your redemption anyway! (source: Witch Hunters codex)



imntdead said:


> something that could threaten the Imperium and the Warp as a whole.


How would this threaten the warp?


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Its pretty well known that the Necrons have plans to destroy the warp as its their gods weakness.

Also i think the points been pretty much made, traitors CAN NOT come back into the imperium after they fall to chaos


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Amen :victory:


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## Jordo02 (Nov 21, 2008)

so..... if there is a chaos space marine warband, can they have marks of nurgle, tzeentch, slaneesh, and khorne all in the same army and remain fluffy? my guess is that would make it chaos unidivded?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Jordo02 said:


> so..... if there is a chaos space marine warband, can they have marks of nurgle, tzeentch, slaneesh, and khorne all in the same army and remain fluffy? my guess is that would make it chaos unidivded?


Yes they could, look at the Black Legion for example. 

However This is only likely to happen under a Chaos Undivided leader. (for example a Slaaneshi follower would never place himself and/or his men under the command of someone dedicated to Khorne)

But yes its perfectly plausable and does happen, most notably in the warbands of the Black Legion.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

The simple truth is that Loyalist Marines hate Chaos and Renegades more then perhaps anything. That said, they are too prideful and stubborn to set aside that hatred to fight a common enemy (as they see the 'traitors' as the greatest threat).

However, that does not mean Loyalist Marines could not unintentionally aid CSMs. Remember that deception, trickery, and sorcery are all tricks within the chaos hat. A clever sorcerer might cast some sort of guise to mislead a Loyalist chapter, causing it to believe the chaos marines were imperials. Then they might. Or something like that.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> However, that does not mean Loyalist Marines could not unintentionally aid CSMs. Remember that deception, trickery, and sorcery are all tricks within the chaos hat. A clever sorcerer might cast some sort of guise to mislead a Loyalist chapter, causing it to believe the chaos marines were imperials. Then they might. Or something like that.


That could, and does, happen. Look at the Horus and Erebus scene in the HH novels. Erebus uses the body of one of Horus' dead comerades to try to manipulate him. However, as i and many people have said previously, loyalists can not work co-opperativly with chaos, they just cant. What your going onto here mate is manipulation while the OP was asking more about an alliance if ive read it right.


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## The Emperor (Apr 1, 2009)

FUCKKKKKKK NOOOOO
consider this two loyalist legions the space wolves and the dark angles hate each otehr so much they will resort to violence if they come inot contact with one anotehr. now imagine if any loyalist met up with any chaos. hell no id believe SMs teaming with orks before i believed chaos


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Anyone whose ever fought with the Dark Angels. ZING!!!


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is a difference between Traitors and Heretics.
> Traitors can never be forgiven.
> Heretics can be absolved through death.
> - So for traitors the path to redemption (if you can call it that) is closed, not that they want your redemption anyway! (source: Witch Hunters codex)


:ireful2: I know the difference between traitors and heretics I am not some newbie who reads only a tiny bit of fluff and thinks he knows everything. What I am saying is that Traitor Marines know that they can not be forgiven by the Imperium; but it could be possible that by forsaking the Chaos Gods and to fight for the Emperor once again, by taking the a path of redemption which is not closed is a possibility and of course at this point the path most likely can only end in death. Maybe I should I have put it more clearly. 

Besides Traitor Marines who wished to be forgiven would want to be forgiven by the Emperor, not the Inquisition and not by some official claiming to carry the word of the Emperor like the High Lords of Terra; but of course they will never have the chance to come before the Golden Throne 

To say that treachery is unforgivable and redemption is not a possibility, no I don't think so



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How would this threaten the warp?


 What you didn't read the part that there was something important to Chaos on the planet? Like I said not to many details; but there was enough to start up the imagination. Now I know that space marines and traitor marines working to together is most likely never never ever gonna happen I just wanted to present something and I thought Necrons would be the best enemy to make that happen because well they are a threat to everything, just not a big threat. I was mostly having an argument with myself as I presented the idea because I knew it wasn't very possible; but I do like impossible things and I need to stop myself now before I keep babbling on.


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## Jordo02 (Nov 21, 2008)

what do chaos space marines do in their spare time i wonder? get in pjs and watch metalocalypse on cartoon networks adult swim?? =P


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Emperor said:


> consider this two loyalist legions the space wolves and the dark angles hate each otehr so much they will resort to violence if they come inot contact with one anotehr.


No they dont.

There is a rivalry which manifests itself in the form of 'Honour duels' - representing when The Lion and Russ had that little scrap. (source: Codex: Angels of Death P.67)

But they certainly do not attack each other! They have been present and fought alongside each other in many of the same campaigns. (For example several Black Crusades)


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I think the point was when they go to the pub afterwards. Dark Angels in one corner drinking Snakebite and Black, shouting "Who let the Dogs Out?", and the Space Wolves downing gallons of cider, going "woah! Backs to the wall lads, the Dark Fairies are in town!"

Then someone puts "Bad Moon Rising" on the jukie and it all kicks off, kinda thing...

:no really, I've been in that pub cyclops:


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## Zyke (Feb 15, 2008)

I have to agree that the chances are extremely small of it. 

Space Marines hate the traitors (and vice versa) almost more than you can imagine. They'd almost certainly rather die trying to destroy them than ever work with them, almost regardless of the cost. I really just can't see it.


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## Wu-Tang-Tau (Apr 2, 2009)

Jordo02 said:


> what do chaos space marines do in their spare time i wonder? get in pjs and watch metalocalypse on cartoon networks adult swim?? =P


Do you really want to ask what Slannesh marines do in their spare time?

ANyway, I think it will involve "insertion" if you know what I mean


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## Jordo02 (Nov 21, 2008)

Wu-Tang-Tau said:


> Do you really want to ask what Slannesh marines do in their spare time?
> 
> ANyway, I think it will involve "insertion" if you know what I mean


Hahahaha, this is why i play chaos undivided.


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