# Help switching gears. (WoC to HE)



## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

So I have decided to return to fantasy after a more than a year break. Initially I really didn't care too much for 8th because of how different it was from 7th. Now I have decided to give it another shot looking at it from the perspective of being a whole new game.

I started WoC back about 10 years ago and have played them almost exclusively in fantasy since then. I love the dark gods but I really feel that WoC are just a little too straight forward and bland. As luck would have it though I recently came into some HE minis and they sound like quite a bit of fun to me. They have some good killing power like WoC but, unlike WoC they die when someone sneezes at them. This provides a challenge that I think will make the game a lot more fun and interesting for me.

Now I have written a few lists recently and I find it very hard not to feel naked when writing them. The high points cost mixed with the low survivability of the units makes me feel uncomfortable as I am used to T4 and chaos armor.

Do you guys have any advice on tactics, overall strategy and list construction for someone coming over to the light side? A few things I am trying to shy away from are god mode choices such as Teclis and Book of Hoeth as I want to have a fun and good game as opposed to winning at all costs. Im also a little wary of hordes as they can sometimes be fun but it is also a little boring basing your army around 2 blocks of troops and a couple of support elements. 

Please veteran pointy ears, help this poor filthy chaos worshipping dog adapt to every day life in Ulthuan.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

Welcome to the light! You are on the money about the differences between WoC and HE, they are dramatic. You will need to kind of back out of your experience altogether and come at it fresh. Like any other army, you'll have to decide your overall strategy or flavor and these two armies are night and day (literally)!
Very basically the HEs use archers to clear chaff, eagles to disrupt enemy movement, tarpits to hold enemy units, and a few elite units or characters to deliver the killing blow. Magic is required to assist everywhere.

There are many types of HE army: Heavy Magic gunline, Heavy magic MSU, Heavy magic cavalry character bus, and Heavy magic Dragon Prince. Notice that they're all heavy magic...to whit:

Magic - No list of HE advantages is complete without magic, but this is a long and very complicated subject. All that I want to say here is that any HE mage can cast from any spell list or High Magic. The potential combinations are unimaginably various and the synergy between your lore choice (or choices) and your combat units is the most important decision in your army. The most popular choices are Shadow, High, Light, and Life. However, there are many other lists built around Beasts, Fire, and Death! Really you can use any but Shadow or High are good to start with. Truly a HE army is built around your magic. Silver Wand, Seerstaff, Annulian crystal, Robes of Forliath and talisman of Saphery are all commonly used items.

ASF - Money. Elves are very fragile and expensive and this ability helps out but it makes them a glass cannon. You must really focus on engineering combats to enable you to wipe out enemy forces in one go to reduce the step-up attacks you take in return. Swordmasters are great for this, combo with chariots (very fragile!) or small-ish blocks of infantry (a la Empire detachments) to strip enemy rank bonuses.

Spear blocks - Not cheap, but the HE fight in an extra rank in addition to the extra rank for spears. A moderate sized, non-horde HE spear block can attack in four ranks on the defense. Amazing, right...but don't forget the ASF! Attack first with re-rolls against most opponents. They make a surprisingly effective tarpit for folks that think they're worthless and squishy.

Phoenix Guard - Speaking of tarpits. Cause fear, 4+ ward, and ASF. Only S4 which isn't great, and very expensive per model, but the champion can carry magic items and the unit can have a magic banner. Built right these guys can really plant their feet and have at it or survive as an MSU unit long enough to help out on "The Big Combat". In high point games these guys commonly carry the Banner of Sorcery.

Longbows - Very weak S, but 30" range allows you to clear chaff and stay out of return fire range. Remember that ASF? It doesn't make these guys a tarpit, but anybody that jumps them will have to survive 10 S3 attacks (on average) that go first and re-roll misses. This makes even the Archers useful as rank-bonus-strippers if they are unfortunate enough to be near combat. Many players use these guys instead of spears for character bunkers.

Giant Eagles - Excellent cheap redirectors to set up your attacks and prevent the enemy's from coordinating. Very very important units to HE and even the most veteran players at the lowest points still make room for at least one.

Dragon Princes - Generic Heavy Cav, but wait a sec! Look at their stat line again... 2 attacks! Lances! ASF! Very popular Hammer unit but they are expensive and if they don't break a unit on the charge they only have S3 in following turns and will be stuck for a very long time.

White Lions of Chrace - Another very popular Hammer. 3+ save vs. Shooting is just lovely, and S6 ASF attacks are too! Very popular unit. In fact, lately I've seen some players using these guys in units of 30 or so and they are devastating. They have fewer attacks than the Swordmasters but higher S and better ranged defence. Good for hunting Cavalry and monsters. Often granted a Flaming Banner to strip regen from their targets.

Lastly, I'll plug www.ulthuan.net and HE strategy articles stickied on heresy for more detailed info and advice. Best of luck!


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks a lot. Just the kind of info I was looking for to get myself in the right mind set. I don't claim to be the best at Fantasy but I am not a noob either. Its just kind of tough starting out with a new army that is a good deal different than my other army.

Really learning 8th along with really learning a new army will be a challenge. I think it will be a fun challenge though.

How do people feel about Seaguard versus spearmen? Are they worth the extra points or do you use them to fill a different role from the spears?


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Good advice from Dog Boy. I have seen a lot of success with a spearmen block and phoenix guard block (banner of saphery) because of the size of the former and resiliency of the latter. I saw an inexperienced player with a HE army beat a top ranked player with his standard WoC army (won first overall at an Indy GT). He used the lvl 4archmage with with the robes and talismen and shadow (more mindrazor and to nerf toughness or strength and wss and I of opponent) and a scroll and a mage lvl 2 with high magic (drain magic, shield of saphery and vaul's unmaking to take away those 4+ wards and crown of command). With shadow, the phoenix guard and spearmen are far more effective. PG strike at S9 with mindrazor and spearmen at S8 when dealing with units with very high armour saves or high toughness and one can use withering to make tougher units easier to wounds and enfeeble to make stronger units less killy and miasma to reduce to either reduce the opposing hit rate or improve your hit rate and against elite characters to ensure re-rolls to hit. We found that the characters are quite good, the prince with great weapon with 2+ AS and vambraces is extremely hard to kill and very effective in the front rank of the spears (reduces the rate at which spearmen are lost and improves CR) and a noble BSB with great weapon and 2+ AS and dawnstone (especially if shield of saphery is up) can hold as well. He then ran flanker units of 5 swordsmen and 6 (often 2 ranks of 3 when facing monsters) of white lions. The white lions proved to be excellent screens to ranged attacks and, because they are stubborn, they can hold something up for a turn or more and do a lot of damage in the first round of combat. He finished up with two 10 archer units (one with the lvl 2 in it. He ran one eagle but found that its two attacks and the lack of any save at all were simply not enough (compare with the 4 attacks with AP, M 10 and 5+ ward save of a daemons of chaos fiend) and the best that could be said was that the eagle often took the shooting that would have killed something else (took 32 shots from a larger leadbelcher unit in turn one) and always died early sacrificing itself to delay combat or to create a flank charge.

Another player had success with a similar build with lore of life on the lvl 4 (throne of vines plus flesh to stone made on unit rock hard and earthblood proved useful as well as long as one avoided flaming attacks) but ran a white lion horde and a swordmen horde instead of the pheonix guard block and smaller units of white lions and swordmasters. Swordmasters are great but they are only S5 and less survivable to ranged attacks and not stubborn like white lions. The two attacks of swordmasters increase attacks in the front rank but, in a horde or deeper unit, the swordmasters get no more supporting attacks than white lions but white lions are S6, instead of S5, and stubborn. Thus, swordmasters are best against decent T3 units with high WS while white lions are better when faced with a lot of S3 and S4 ranged attacks and/or T4 to T6 units/models or models with greater armour saves.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

olderplayer said:


> the best that could be said was that it often got shot up and always died early sacrificing itself to save something else.


Just so, and that's why I'm so thankful that they're cheap. The primary value is derived from their fly ability and large base size. They _may_ be able to see off a warmachine's crew or individual small units of archers or skirmishers, but really that's not what they are for so I wouldn't worry too much about direct stat line comparisons. There is a thread of jokes among vet HE players about dead eagles, cause they are generally sacrificed to redirect or charge block that one enemy unit you are too afraid to face! In that case, the Eagles point cost has to be judged against the points you earn with another round of shooting or magic or charge set-ups or whatever. Just keep 'em under cover until the sacrifice is worth it.

Another useful trait, if they live long enough, is to use the fly ability to set up a flank charge bonus to CR. You won't strip steadfast, but you can still get the +1 or 2! Combo CC is fundamental to HE strategy.



Wiccus said:


> How do people feel about Seaguard versus spearmen? Are they worth the extra points or do you use them to fill a different role from the spears?


Right, well that's a matter of opinion. There are pretty much an even number of folks on both sides of the fence. I tend to favor the more specialized troops over the Seaguard myself, but even I concede that is not always the case.

The biggest advantage to the Seaguard is their multi-role capacity. Compared to the more vanilla troops they trade a little to get a little. As archers, they have regular bows which have only 24" range, but they are much more dangerous in CC. As spearmen they get a ranged attack and Stand-and-Shoot, but want to stay in an archer formation as long as possible.

On the down side they are extremely expensive, only 1 pt cheaper than your elites, yet they are just spearmen with bows. Their multi-role capability seems great in low point games because they can CC and shoot, but they are nearly 50% more than spearmen and almost 25% more than archers. Another disadvantage is that they are always sacrificing some of the ability you are paying through the nose for. A big block of shooty spears? Great, but if you are not in an archer line than you are wasting shots, the bigger the block the more you lose. Take an archer line? Also great, but now you are losing the advantage of all those extra spear attacks and if you fail to reform in time then those points are wasted, also.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Agreed on the eagles. I think eagles should either have 3 attacks at least (beaks and claws equal 3) and be perhaps a 40 point model. That way, they'd have a better chance against war machines and light units. 

Seaguard theoretically are good but fall into the rule that a unit that tries to do too many things does nothing well. When you add the shield, you are paying 4 points more for seaguard over spearmen (both have martial prowess for an extra rank of attacks in combat with spears) simply for the ability to shoot regular bows. Additionally, in order to benefit from the spears and martial prowess ability, the seaguard need to be ranked up in more than 2 ranks and that means that the back ranks either do not get to shoot or only get to volley fire.

One would think that seaguard with spears and martial prowess would be preferred to archers because archers with light armour cost the same as seaguard with light armour and seaguard have martial prowess. However, archers have longbows with range of 30" instead of 24" and that means archers often do not have to move to shoot as often (especially if going first on turn one) and hit at a greater rate (short range shooting) units beyond 12" and at or under 15" from the unit. 

Compared with dark elf repeater crossbowmen (DE RXBs), HE archers should have an option to buy shields and cost a point or two less. I'd take the ability to take two shots with range 24" and AP over one shot with a range of 30" and no AP, especially when DE RXBs come with light armour and can buy shields for the cost of a HE archer with no armour and no shield.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

I think after reading your comments as well as studying the interwebs I am starting to get a real grasp on how HE play. Im liking that they will be a challenge to really master especially since I flat out refuse to take BoH or Teclis. The fact that they have options which is one thing that I feel at the moment WoC don't have. I will have to do a bunch of experimenting and probably lose a dozen battles before I fully understand what I am doing with them.

One other thing I am curious about is the special choices. Now these guys are obviously what really makes HE. I know each have their merits and uses but which selection do people seem to get the most mileage out of? 

Also do you guys feel that HE can be competitive without a lvl 4? I am sure they can be I'm just wondering about success stories others might have going relatively light on magic. I see the merits to a lvl 4 but I happen to have some block about having my army led by a spell caster. It just seems wrong and I feel like I should have a combat badass leading my troops.

I know I will really just have to get some games under my belt to really come to understand their capabilities but it just helps to absorb wisdom from veterans. Thanks for the help so far.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

If you play at 2400 or 2500 points, you can afford a prince with vambrances, 2+ As and a GW and can still afford a fully kitted lvl 4. The prince is LD10 and the general. I think that the prince kitted like that is severely under-rated. With the banner or sorcery and the weaknesses of HE armies, you really need the lvl 4 to be competitive. Once you are at 2400 to 2500 points, a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 become fairly standard. At 2000 points, you can run a fully kitted prince (Armour of Caledor and Vambrances) with a great weapon and a fairly naked archmage with maybe a good arcane item (Silver wand gives you an extra spell, which is almost as good as having loremaster, dispel scroll; you can also use lore of life to recover wounds on the archmage or the prince if the prince is within range whenever you successfully cast spells). I have seen some HE armies run with two lvl 2's but they don't seem to be as effective.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

Remember that magic is critical to the HE. You really should bring an Archmage or you are sacrificing the biggest strength of the army. Magic is really what HE are best at and it the magic phase is the one that the HE can trounce in...virtually the only one that they have a clear and unmistakable advantage. No problem in not bringing the BoH or Teclis, many turnaments, leagues, and polite players recognize that they are broken refuse to bring them as well.

Remember how I said that the choice of Lore will really set up your armies strategy? Well you must be certain that the Lore is going to function correctly. If the spells fail to go off then your army is going to suffer badly from low numbers, low T, low S, and poor armor saves so you have to get that magic to work for you. Thus the need for a powerful, well kitted mage before a noble or Prince.

Fluff wise, HE armies led by archmages are not unusual at all, and no army ever leaves home without them!

Another mage strategy gaining popularity is one that you may appreciate as a former WoC player, the Light Coven. This utilizes a lvl 4 Light mage w/ the Annulian Crytal or Silver Wand, a prince/noble with the Radiant Gem of Hoeth (makes him a lvl 1 mage) and pick Light for him, plus a lvl1 Light mage with the Seerstaff (lets him pick a spell, even a duplicate). If you got the point left, maybe get another lvl1 Light mage with either a dispel scroll, the Jewel of Dusk, or the Annulian Crystal if you don't already have it. The idea is to get Banishment twice and max it out at S6 or 7. Remember it's 2D6 vs Undead or demons, and all successful ward saves have to be re-rolled! Awesome vs. warmachines, Ogres, Trolls, Dragons, Greater Demons...all those really expensive things that HEs have a hard time hurting.

As far as special choices go, note that all of the elite infantry are the exact same cost, so you can switch units in and out without changing your roster at all. Very easy to experiment. Chariots are great, impact hits are fantastic, but the Elf chariots are very fragile and cannot survive protracted fights. Best saved for bigger games to pile on the CR modifiers. This is also true for the dreaded Lion chariots. Although the cause fear and are more powerful, the are expensive and not much tougher. Nonetheless, if you show up with a Lion Chariot at a 1000pt game your going to freak some people out! They definitely have no trouble running down and wiping out chaff, skirmishers and warmachines.

For the Cav, I already mentioned the Dragon Princes. Many players say the Silver Helms are completely worthless, but don't listen to them. The DPs are better at everything, yes, but the SH are much cheaper and they are still heavy cavalry with ASF and Elf WS. If you bring a tooled up mounted Prince as your general a large unit of SH (say 9) makes a more reasonable "Character bus" whose primary function is not to win combat, surprisingly! They are there to provide "extra wounds" via the Look Out, Sir rule, to prevent him from being picked out by ranged attacks, and deliver him into the combat you need to win. It's actually the Prince that is the killer! In this case your general needs some major kitting out, rerollable 2+ AS, maybe a ward save, and a magic weapon with high strength like the Ogre or Giant Blade.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

I've thought of doing that. It just seems like a lot of points. A Prince, Archmage, Noble BSB (BSBs seem pretty much mandatory in 8th) and a lvl 2. That is between 800 to 850ish. That leaves even fewer points for what seem to be rather expensive troops overall. I might have to try writing up a list like that. I have a couple of lists with a Prince like that and I really like the idea behind him and I also like they idea of a lvl 4 buffing or debuffing all day.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

I think that's just the way it is, but you instincts are right. You really have to decide which your army is going to do: Noble-cruncher or magic. The Lvl 4 archmage is desired because he has +5 to dispel and with the Silver Wand knows 5 spells (6 if he uses High Magic). 

If you want to focus on the noble then consider dropping the mage to Lvl. 1 and giving him or her a Dispel Scroll or a Silver wand and High magic (3 spells!). Even without the Wand you still get Drain Magic and the 5+ ward spell. Both very useful and easy to cast. His job would be to use Drain Magic and the scroll to set up a strong magic defense for cheap. Plus, even though he's lvl1, he has a +2 to dispel. You could also drop the Archmage to Lvl3, but then you would have to make a very difficult choice about whether to give him the Silver Wand or the Annulian Crystal. The Crystal is an excellent item and very useful in all situations, but the lvl 3 will also want the wand to increase the likelihood of getting the spell you want.

Now all that's only 70 pts saved. You may want to get just lvl2 and a lvl1, or even drop the second Mage altogether and get a Lvl 2 with the Annulian Crystal. This is alot riskier if you depend on magic and makes you more vulnerable to enemt magic as well, but if you want to spend those points on a prince you might as well go whole hog and move your casters into the hero slot.


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