# Best army for magic phase domination



## melsaphim

Morning Heresy, having made my decision after the last discussion to work on a small Dark Elf force i have well and truly been bitten by the GW bug hard once again. I have a small 40k force of a converted nurgley lord and 3 squads of 7 marines to convert into nurgley plague marines and my conversion of the DE Cauldron of Blood is now moving into the final stages of painting (with the rest of the models for the army starting to trickle in around Christmas)

But i'm never one to settle for two things when i can have many many more (much to the distress of my wallet and girlfriend) :laugh: and so i'm here with another topic of discussion for the wonderful fountain of knowledge that is Heresy, you guys helped a lot with the discussion on the pros/cons of HE and DE so hopefully we can get another good discussion going here.

This time i am curious as to what you believe to be the greatest army for magical devastation and or dominance, with reasons as to why this is so. I'm looking to create an army that truly annihilates in the magic phase with as many spells going off as i can field in the points limit. I know this may not be competitive but it will sure as hell be fun.

I'm looking for help on which army has the best magic users and why? including magic items available and special rules. Who has the best lore's of magic available to them? what spells truly dominate the field not just in damage output but maybe in control or buff/debuff aswell?

Look forward to hearing from you all with your opinions and ideas, feel free to include comments on special characters but i am aiming for basing this army without the use of them in the end.

Cheers
Liam


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## Azezel

It's always going to be a toss-up between High Elves and Lizardmen.

Lizardmen bet all their marbles on a big ugly from who has Loremaster and adds an extra die to every cast. No doubt about it, that's some heay magical firepower.

High Elves Will generally bring a Banner granting +d3 Power dice/turn and an Arcane Item which takes an enemy Power Die and turns it into a Dispel Die, they also have a 10 point item to grant an additional spell.


Both Lizzies and Helfs have access to all eight Lores from the core book, but High Elves also have their own Lore. High Magic isn't that great, but its spells are super-cheap in eighth edition, so you'll cast more per turn.

Unlike Lizards, high Elf Hero casters also have access to their full nine Lores. Lizard hero casters get Heavens only.

Lizards have solid anti-misscast protection, High Elves have only limited protection if they burn an Arcane slot for it.

Lizards can have Loremaster, High Elves can take an item which lets you chose spells instead of rolling.


Both are very strong in the magic phase, but in different ways. Lizards have the edge in raw power, High Elves in finesse.


Unless you count Teclis. When the big T is on the table all bets are off. Loremaster, any Lore, immune to one miscast/phase, every double of any kind is irresistable without miscast ad he can permanantly remove an enemy spell from play.


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## kavyanshrike

Or if you want an army which relies on magic to stay alive try tomb kings and vampire counts as magic keeps the army alive  stuff like the casket of souls is funny to use


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## Words_of_Truth

Does anyone know how good Chaos Dwarfs are at magic?


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## melsaphim

Azezel said:


> It's always going to be a toss-up between High Elves and Lizardmen.
> 
> Lizardmen bet all their marbles on a big ugly from who has Loremaster and adds an extra die to every cast. No doubt about it, that's some heay magical firepower.
> 
> High Elves Will generally bring a Banner granting +d3 Power dice/turn and an Arcane Item which takes an enemy Power Die and turns it into a Dispel Die, they also have a 10 point item to grant an additional spell.
> 
> 
> Both Lizzies and Helfs have access to all eight Lores from the core book, but High Elves also have their own Lore. High Magic isn't that great, but its spells are super-cheap in eighth edition, so you'll cast more per turn.
> 
> Unlike Lizards, high Elf Hero casters also have access to their full nine Lores. Lizard hero casters get Heavens only.
> 
> Lizards have solid anti-misscast protection, High Elves have only limited protection if they burn an Arcane slot for it.
> 
> Lizards can have Loremaster, High Elves can take an item which lets you chose spells instead of rolling.
> 
> 
> Both are very strong in the magic phase, but in different ways. Lizards have the edge in raw power, High Elves in finesse.
> 
> 
> Unless you count Teclis. When the big T is on the table all bets are off. Loremaster, any Lore, immune to one miscast/phase, every double of any kind is irresistable without miscast ad he can permanantly remove an enemy spell from play.


Can Lizardmen only have the one Slaan? i don't have the lizard book so i can't check up on that one myself. I'm simply trying to make a list with as many magic users in as possible. So if only 1 Slaan the rest would have to be skink priests. although can't a priest be on the engine of the gods? does this effect the magic phase in any way/shape or form?

As for HE i know from playing them before a few times that their magic can be effective, but i'm wanting to avoid teclis and focus mainly on the army as a whole in magic rather than special chars and magic



kavyanshrike said:


> Or if you want an army which relies on magic to stay alive try tomb kings and vampire counts as magic keeps the army alive  stuff like the casket of souls is funny to use


What are the TK and VC lores like? as i know they both have their own respectively but i have no idea how they work or how good they are.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Does anyone know how good Chaos Dwarfs are at magic?


I'm afraid all i know about Chaos dwarves is how good their artillery is :laugh: sorry to not be of any help there but if anyone does know i'd be quite interested in that one too


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## Vaz

Chaos dwarves have IMHO best Hex in the game (ash storm), and it rates up there with Okkams Razor and Purple Sun. However with only the Lord capable to take it, it is a bit limited in availability.

Lizards; dual Slann (life and light/shadow) is awesome.


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## Azezel

melsaphim said:


> Can Lizardmen only have the one Slaan? i don't have the lizard book so i can't check up on that one myself. I'm simply trying to make a list with as many magic users in as possible. So if only 1 Slaan the rest would have to be skink priests. although can't a priest be on the engine of the gods? does this effect the magic phase in any way/shape or form?


Lizards can have two Slann, but there are limits on duplicate Disciplines.

No matter though, if you just want to cast a ton of spells every round you want Greenskins. They have (correct me if I'm wrong) the cheapest casters in the game, and they can generate extra Power Dice and that's what you need if your definition of of dominating the magic phase is having a lot of spells and dice.

Empire would also be good, cheap wizards and Priests with bound spells.


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## Masked Jackal

Dark Elves absolutely dominate at higher point levels because of Power of Darkness. Multiple wizards, even with the 2d6 power dice, can end up pumping out pretty obscene numbers of spells if you simply save your last few dice for Power of Darkness, and Sacrifical Dagger as well as cheap Dark spells can bring out a lot of pain. At more normal point levels though, I'll agree with the Lizardmen, even over High Elves, but mostly because I consider Teclis to not exist. *Shuns away everyone who uses him*


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## kavyanshrike

The tomb kings lores are for mostly healing and improving your troops but the tomb kings magical units are a lot better with stuff like the casket of souls and they can gain additional power dice through the casket and the hierotitan

I have never used the vampire counts but from what I have seen from friends using them you can create new units through magic meaning you can constantly replenish your army.

The problem with both of these armies is that for the tomb kings if your kill the hierophant (your highest level magic user) or for vampires your main vampire your army begins to crumble and die.

Also another good army for magic may be daemons with teen tech daemons been able to have any lore and lore master


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## DivineEdge

High elves, dark elves, and lizardmen have the best magic. Greenskins have cheap casters but only two crappy lores. Don't do them for magic dominance. Kings and counts need magic to be competitive. 
Lizards just need one slann. No need for too many skinks, they have only one lore and won't get many die. 
Dark elves have the only magic phase that scales with points cost and gets exponentially better with reach wizard you take - power of darkness and sax dagger are why. Plus they get good lores with the exception of fire and darkness. 
High elves are more suited to magical defense unless you take the book or teclis.

You already have druchii so I'd say stick with them.


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## Vaz

The Tomb Kings magic phase; all these power dice and nothing worthwile to cast.

VC; the most useful lore regarding balance of the army. It is integral to making the army play at its best, but doesn't hamper if you don't take more than a L1 Blender Fighty Lord or L4 Master of the Dead Necrolord.

Divine Edge; Crappy lores? damn, if OnG were actually better at doing anything, then their Little Waagh would be among the more powerful lores in the game.


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## DivineEdge

It's not terrible. The little wagh is much more nuanced then some other lores, but I'd take shadow, death, life, or even some WoC/DoC lores over it. Skaven spells are better, and I could make a case for the elf lores too. The poisoned attacks and armour piercing are pretty lame to me. The fix it spell is just like curse of the midnight wind (or some spell from heavens). Night shroud is situational at best and vindictive glare just sucks. Itchy nusiance is pretty good, and bad moon can be, but you have a 50% chance of casting the big one on 6 die with a level 4. Mushrooms can help, but your mage is about to blow himself up then. 

Magic phases are integral to undead, but in all honesty, the tomb kings only have a few semi-decent buffs. Nothing else is IMO worth casting.


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## Tim/Steve

Personally I love OnG mage: orcs magic sucks mainly because its all direct damage and so doesn't work when in combat (not sure which genius thought that up) but little waargh is pretty awesome. Itchy nuisance is one of the best spells in the game (you do NOT want to be striking after a hoard of savage orcs) and combined with higher level bad moon (or just a lucky little moon) it'll destroy whole armies.
Best of all you should just shove a cheap lv1 night goblin onto the side of each and every unit of orcs: you get a few extra channels for cheap and have sneaky stabbin all over the place. Its nice for armour piercing but if you happen to flank its devastating.


But if we are going for magical dominance there's only 3 races in it: DE, HE and lizards. Lizards certainly have the best defence of the 3 and they are pretty strong but I think they are out done by banner of sorcery/jewel of dusk HE or spammed Lv1-2 DE: getting +2-4 power dice a turn is nasty but then being able to throw 1 dice at power of darkness off 2-3 throwaway mages to help power-up an uber sorceress can also be devastating.
... as to which is actually strongest, I don't really know, but allow Teclis and the debate ends rather quickly...


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## Vaz

Yup. Gobbo magic mainly.

Sneaky Stealing Attribute; free power dice? Works better with trickle casting which works for Wood Elves and Vampires; not so much Dweller/Pit/Sun bombs.

Sneaky Stabbing; Armour Piercing and Rerolls to hit and wound in the flank? One dicing to get armour piercing is good enough, anything extra just makes enemies even more careful not to expose a flank. Imagine this on any sort of med strength (4-5) unit with decent movement. One dicing as well just to get additional Power Dice? Definately

Vindictive Glare; we know Magic Missiles are shit. So lets give it low casting cost. Wait; 5+? That is worth one dicing definately. Again, just worth casting to get the additional dice, but 7-10.5 s3 hits is not much to sniff at against Elves etc.

Gift of the Spider God; Name one any unit which would not appreciate an 8+ (!) spell to get Poisoned attacks, or a buff to existing poison.

Itchy Nusiance; Another cheap spell; battlefield control, and I1? What is not to love?

Gork'll fix it; 8+ to become near enough immune to a units poison/killing blow while effectively giving all units targetting it Armour Piercing?

Night Shroud; Dangerous Terrain with a 24" bubble, throwing in -1 to enemy BS? Yes please. Curse of Anraheir is a 10+ spell and only affects one.

Curse; This synergises with Shadow/Death so well it is unreal. If you have both Dwellers/Pit/Sun you can roll decently, and have a good chance of getting off 2'nukes in a turn.


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## melsaphim

Thanks again to all who have posted so far on this topic, this is once more turning into an invaluable source of information and ideas.

To everyone who has said DE for a variety of reasons i am planning on including a lot of magic potential in my DE army but also a reasonable amount of killy killy CC character build so for this 'magic' army i'm really wanting to focus away from DE, not to discredit your comments or their value as this is at heart still a discussion of the best army for magic dominance in fantasy not a 'whats best out of these armies' kind of list without DE in it.

On the topic of Lizardmen if i take two slaan i am assuming they are lord options allowing me to use my heroes on skink priests? I am almost completely certain this army i make will include nothing but magic casting/using characters nothing else so all chars must use magic hence why i would want the heroes to be skink priests if i use any.

With this in mind what would be the best army to saturate the field with magic caster characters and nothing else. What army can field the highest ratio of magic users in their list so to speak. and could an army of pure magic Characters and then units to support those characters work for that matter?


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## Vaz

If you take Dual Slann, there won't be many points left in the pot after taking a ton of Chameleon Skinks, Salamanders and Saurus. Under dual Slann with shadow; try a Skink Cohort with Mindrazor; s6 attacks are still nasty as hell (you still get Javelins as well), and it can force the opponent onto your Saurus Blocks in time for a Dwellers/Pit of Shades.


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## Tim/Steve

Thought of that... but unfortunately mindrazor specifies close combat attacks. So no S6 javs for skinks :cray:


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## Vaz

Sorry forgot to say that; but even so Javelins can get their fair share of kills.


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## Azezel

melsaphim said:


> With this in mind what would be the best army to saturate the field with magic caster characters and nothing else. What army can field the highest ratio of magic users in their list so to speak. and could an army of pure magic Characters and then units to support those characters work for that matter?


There are only two armies which can do this without gimping yourself.

Non undead armies need a BSB. Trying to play 8ed without a BSB is taking a deliberate handicap.

Lizardmen and high elves have this covered.

Slann can act as both general and BSB for Lizardmen.

High elves need a Noble as BSB, but for 45 points you can give him the Radient Gem of Hoeth to make him a Wizard. He's a pretty damned good fighter/mage too with heavy armour, and an ASF Great Weapon.

(You can also give the Gem to a Prince which is pretty damned brutal).

High elves can also have Dragon Mages (Hero level Fire Mage riding a dragon) and mount Archmages on Dragons. Not really a good idea, but they can do it.

You could even have a dragon-riding prince with the gem to make him a wizard and a hero-level Dragonmage.


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## Words_of_Truth

What's the worse magical race, aside from those who don't have it?


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## Azezel

Wood Elves?

Limited lores, Expensive Wizards, bad unique Lore that their Hero level casters MUST take, very little in the way of dick-with-the-magic-phase abilities.


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## Words_of_Truth

What about Bretonnians?


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## Vaz

I wouldn't call a 155pt Mage with 2 wounds, a 5+ Armour, no ward save and only access to High Magic to be a decent BSB. You might as well just hand them free VP's/Win Conditions.

Worst mages? OnG; as good as the little waagh is, the army is just atrocious. None Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos; Daemon Magic Lores, and Tomb Kings; again like OnG, the TK army sucks donkey balls, so despite Death and Light, they aren't brilliant, their own lore is atrocious.

Ogres lore is fairly bad; but they don't need their lore. It is only because Slaughtermasters are decent fighters, can take magic armour, and can heal themselves that they take it. Course +1 strength/stubborn is always good fun, but it is not the lore that makes it good.

Wood Elves lore blows balls; although they have the only remaining magical charge move remaining in the game, they have nothing worthwhile to cast it on. Even Treekin don't benefit from it.


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## kavyanshrike

Azezel said:


> There are only two armies which can do this without gimping yourself.
> 
> Non undead armies need a BSB. Trying to play 8ed without a BSB is taking a deliberate handicap.
> 
> Lizardmen and high elves have this covered.
> 
> Slann can act as both general and BSB for Lizardmen.
> 
> High elves need a Noble as BSB, but for 45 points you can give him the Radient Gem of Hoeth to make him a Wizard. He's a pretty damned good fighter/mage too with heavy armour, and an ASF Great Weapon.
> 
> (You can also give the Gem to a Prince which is pretty damned brutal).
> 
> High elves can also have Dragon Mages (Hero level Fire Mage riding a dragon) and mount Archmages on Dragons. Not really a good idea, but they can do it.
> 
> You could even have a dragon-riding prince with the gem to make him a wizard and a hero-level Dragonmage.


That last combo sounds really painful


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## Azezel

Words_of_Truth said:


> What about Bretonnians?



Not at all bad at the ol' Magic game.

Typical Bret wizard is cheap and will have a 6+ for being Mounted and a 6++/5++ Blessing save and Magic Resistance 1/2, She can ride in the second rank and still cast with line of sight and has access to the Lore of Life. They can also have two dispel items and the Fey enchantress has the only spell(s) in the game whcih cast for absolutely no power dice.



They cannot play Magic with the big boys, but they are not bad at it.


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## Tim/Steve

Vaz said:


> Worst mages? OnG; as good as the little waagh is, the army is just atrocious. None Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos; Daemon Magic Lores, and Tomb Kings; again like OnG, the TK army sucks donkey balls, so despite Death and Light, they aren't brilliant, their own lore is atrocious.
> 
> Ogres lore is fairly bad; but they don't need their lore. It is only because Slaughtermasters are decent fighters, can take magic armour, and can heal themselves that they take it. Course +1 strength/stubborn is always good fun, but it is not the lore that makes it good.


OnG can be a powerful army... if played right. But very few are willing to put in the money to add those units that turn a very bog-standard army into a killer.

I've not really played slaaneshi magic much but I know its a bad lore... not for the spels, just because its so hard to take. At 2k you really can't fit a decent wizard. Tzeentch is solid just not a scratch on the choice of BRB lores and Nurgle is a much maligned army... but actually pretty decent. If you can take a Lv4 GUO and keep him alive (no cannons/pit of shades) then you should have fun in the magic phase... but the chances of keeping him alive are fairly shite.

As for ogres... great maw is one of the best lores in the game in my view. Being able to bubble +1T and/or regen can turn an ogre unit from hard to devastating... and since with an expensive army its relatively easy to get army wide its a massively impressive lore. I will also always look down on anyone who gives slaughtermasters magic armour: its an acknowledged mistake... that GW lack the balls to correct it doesn't mean it should be used.


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## DivineEdge

WoC Slaanesh is good. DoC slaanesh is impossible to get. Wand of wych elm single-handedly makes wood elves better. No better at casting - but great at dispelling. athel loren sucks. 

I'd say OnG worst at casting becauseof restricted lores. TK aren't great either, but if they really invest into it it can be pretty good. Great maw is ok crappy but toothcracker and guts are turn it amazing. 

Lore of the wild is the worst though. So maybe we could include beastmen - but thank god they got beasts.


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## Vaz

How can TK be good? They have to take Nehekhara, and that lore sucks, and if you take a second Lore, you're stuck with WS2 (3?) Chariots. 

The Giant is a massive "shoot me". The Casket is good, but random, the Kanopi only affect's RiP spells and there are few enough of those around. Sure, you can go Death or Light - but by that stage; you've spent what, 450-600pts to get the same output that a 200-300pt Caster is able to from other armies, and you're actually no better off than they are. 

Arguably; Beast's isn't that Brilliant; it has one good spell; Curse of Anraheir (just try telling me that Open Ground is not a Terrain Type), Wyssan's wildform only makes killy units more killy (and Minotaurs/Bestigors are among the nastiest in the game already and don't need augmenting), while lower level units still suck and get beaten up fairly easily thanks to not improving the Initiative or Save. And as good as a Savage Beast looks on a Doombull; yeah, it's already about as Deadly as it can go and enhancing it is overkill.


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## DivineEdge

Wssyans's wildform is amazing on a horde of gors. Minotaurs or the like less - you are right, they don't need the buff, but going from 3/4 to 4/5 make you amazing. If you have banner of the beasts...

Nekehara isn't terrible. The buff spells are decent, and the lore attribute is nice to get guys back with. Yes, hierotitans scream shoot me, but half the freakin' army does, and sphinxes are still regarded as pretty good. 
Kb - is decent. Buffing up kb is pretty awesome. Dessication can nueter a unit. Extra movement is amazing. Amazing - and literally makes the army better jus from its presence. The buffs/hexes in nekehara are what are good - not the BABOOM - I mean fizzle spells that try to do damage. And light of death. Plus, you must take a hierophant, so might as well make him good.

PS - put a prince in chariots.


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## Vaz

I don't have my army book to hand; But the Undead need the extra movement; unlike the Vampires who have easy access to Fast Movement (Vargheists/Varghuls, Black Coach, Black Knights, Vampire Knights, Terrorgheists), whereas TK have... Two forms of Cavalry whose core rules render them useless (4+ heavy cav, and missile cav who cannot march and shoot and are limited to 5+ to hit), tomb scorps who are stuck under the sand until later turns, carrion who are war machine hunters and one of the 3 good units, Necrosphinx (huge toughness rendered useless by the wound chart), and chariots (cannot march and require the use of a king to be useful after the charge without being hammered by being hit on a 3+). That movement is required to make them actually be anywhere near the quality of other armies.

KB on units which can barely hit, barely move, attack last in CC, and quite frankly be generally ignored is not much use at all.

The buff and debuffs cannot keep up with other lores from the BRB. You MUST take a heirophant, It MUST take Nehekhara; and it is no good. You're spending 140 pts on a caster with t4, 3 wounds, and no armour save, who cannot heal himself, cannot pass over the Heirophant-ism to another so you are stuck with crumble, cannot defend himself in combat, cannot flee, and the rest of the army is reliant on healing no more than 8-16 Skeletons a turn?

Compare that to a Vampire Lord with L4, 5 WS7 I7 S7 Attacks, a 2+/4++ Save and forcing successful wounds to be rerolled, healing a wound off himself each time he casts a spell, rerolls to hit/wound (with a unit of wights having 2+ to hit and killing blow s6 charge), and can restore 5 dead knights to his retinue, or one who can quite simply lash out 16 ASF s5 attacks with reroll to wound, etc. 

Or a Master Necro raising up to 10 Skeletons or 16 Zombies, and then plonking a unit of zombies at just the right angle to redirect/speedbump. 

There is a reason that Vampires are considered tier 2 or even top tier in the right hands and set up, and that Tomb Kings are sitting rock bottom next to Wood Elves; wood elves have the benefit of a 7(?) year old army book and combat style not well supported by the core rules; while TK have a comparatively brand new book, which on paper is well supported by the core rules; Monstrous Infantry, Flying HKB Monster, Chariot units, Buffing characters, Flying healable cheap chaff which are fairly decent in combat, war machines, cheap blocks of unbreakable core infantry... What went wrong? Shit magic lores which they are forced to take; even wood elves have Treekin and
Eternal Guard backed up by Lore of Life. How is it that wood elves are able to have more "undead" than Tomb Kings? 

Other armies which do well without good magic are Bretonnians, Empire and Dwarves; Bretons and Cavalry Empire's strength comes from countering the ability of the Ogres (and to a lesser extent, Monstrous Infantry all over) to succeed, while Dwarves and Artillery Empire just obliterate the enemy magic user or shut it down as soon as possible, either through the 5+ to dispel they have or shooting the enemy caster with one of their 3 sniperball cannons or dual Organ guns/helblasters and/or 40 Thunderers; at which point it becomes a race between who can get off the Purple Sun/Pit of Shades/Dwellers/5" Save or Die template first before losing their caster;

Incidentally where a Dual Slann works best; oh dear you've killed my Life General? No more Dwellers; oh well, Soulblight+Purple Sun/Withering+Pit of Shades/Okkams Mindrazor here we come.


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## Azezel

DivineEdge said:


> Nekehara isn't terrible. The buff spells are decent, and the lore attribute is nice to get guys back with.


I think the problem with the Lore of Nehekara is that it bumps TK units up to where everyone else starts out.

A lore full of strong augments (which it is) sounds good until one notices that TK need those augs to function at all, where everyone else can use augments to, well augment their units, rather than just make them the work at all.

The TK Lore is not very good because of the enormous drag factor that is the TK army.


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## Words_of_Truth

Beastmen any good at magic?


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## Vaz

Yes and no. Gor blocks are good with lore of beasts and a couple of their magic items are considered "broken" for the purposes of ETC tournaments; and with cheap T5 4 wound chariots as core, cheap chaff, and pumbagors the army, despite monobuild effectively, they are right up there as a solid tier 3, maybe even 2 army (along with Chaos Warriors, High Elves, Empire).

If you are interested; my tiers are as;

1: Lizards, Daemons, Dark Elves
2; Dwarves, Ogres (drops to tier 2.5 vs bretons), Vampires, Skaven
2.5; Chaos Warriors, Empire, High Elves, Beastmen
3; Bretonnians (goes up to Tier 2.5 vs Ogres), Chaos Dwarfs
4; Wood Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Dogs of War (still technically legal)
5; 
6; Tomb Kings

Notice the armies at the bottom? 3 Have shit magic on the whole, while
Dogs of War and Wood Elves who have access to better magic are hampered by being 2-3 editions out of date with null rules (WE being at the "shit end" of 6th) and overcosted.


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