# Chapter Fleet



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'd got to thinking about the wider fleet composition of my DIY Chapter, and started to wonder what would there be, other than the main warships?
At its organisstional base, my fleet is 3 Battlebarges, each supported by two Strike Cruisers, with a tenth Strike Cruiser set apart for 'other'. Each Strike Cruiser would be escorted by Sword and Gladius squadrons (those are the Astartes escorts, aren't they?), each BB being escorted by more. So far, so froody. But, what else? Especially for a Crusading/Fleet-based Chapter?
I envisage there being a variety of Forgeships, bigger and smaller and committed to a Task Force dependant on the mission. There would also have to be some sort of heavy-lift capacity. With most Chapters only having a few Thunderhawks and Transporters, there aren't enough of them to get the Chapter and its armour planetside quuick enough. So, Thunderhawks for close-in insertion on the line-of-battle, other carriers for further back for vehicles and infantry?
I also wonder about air/void support. For a whole-Chapter deployment, the group would suffer from such a vulnerability; inbuilt, I know, to avoid another Heresy. But how is this overcome? I do imagine Serfs equipped with some sort of fighter, at least in limited numbers and for certain jobs, especially if the Chapter is operating alone. Not saying it's the greatest fluff-supported solution, but there is a feeling of _rightness_ about it being in there to some degree.
Anyway, before I rant on and on, what other stuff do you think is there making-up the fleet of a Chapter- small or large? I'm looking for ideas of ships that we don't really ever hear about, or are even out-and-out original creations. BFG and the wider background tell us about lots of Imperial ships, but in a galaxy, and Imperium, that big, I don't think we could ever call it comprehensive, just typical of what we might find. Ideas?

GFP


----------



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Stealth fighters, possibly communication inception ships, I mean just look up all of the aircraft used in today's world. Its basically the same thing in 40k with just giant turbo boost engines and lasers. How about drone ships that collect data before engaging in combat? Or ships that look like they are legit aircrafts but instead they are missiles, kinda like grot bombs. The possibilities are endless.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think each cruiser would have a squadron of escorts. From BFG, it says that "few battleships fight without a pair of Swords..." I mean, it's not impossible that each cruiser would have a squadron of escorts, particularly for a Fleet based chapter, but having 30-40 frigates would probably be pushing it. Those things aren't tiny exactly.

The Space Marines have a few escorts that are mostly theirs, the Hunter, Gladius, and Nova classes. The first being a destroyer and the last two being frigates (and keep in mind that frigates are larger than destroyers in WH40k). 

BFG mentions that space based Chapters using their fortress monasteries as "workshops, training areas, and dock facilities for the entire Chapter..." It mentions that no Chapter is to have more than one of them. Depending on how much you want to spread your fleet around (say, across the entire galaxy like the Black Templars) you'd probably need manufacturing facilities on all the battle barges, if not on the strike cruisers as well. If you prefer to keep'em all together like the Space Sharks, then your fortress monastery is probably sufficient. 

The Thunder Hawks (3 per a Strike Cruiser or 9 for a Battle Barge) carry all the equipment the Space Marines need. This includes their AFVs. Space Marines generally don't need to create fortifications or field bases, so they don't need so much lifting. Plus there are so few of them. The entire Chapter is a fraction of most regiments. 

The BFG book says that 3 thunderhawks is sufficient to deploy an entire company with all their equipment. Therefore a BB's 9 is enough for 3 companies. And astoundingly, it says that fortress monasteries can hold up to 30 or more Thunder Hawks (theorically deploying an entire Chapter at once!)

I don't quite understand your question about air/void support? Some Space Marines stay aboard the ships (particularly the Master of the Fleet). Most positions are handled by Chapter serfs, including the captaincy of the escorts and and possibly some of the Strike Cruisers (though there's probably a Space Marine on the bridge to give tactical or strategic orders). I can't recall Space Marines using strike craft, but if your chapter decides to use them, they'd be manned by serfs (unless your Space Marines want to man them. Ought to be interesting, remodeling the strike craft using Space Marine tolerances.), though Thunder Hawks are manned by Space Marines.


----------



## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Im not sure even a fleet based chapter would have 3 battle barrages. I thought that most only had one if any, and it was only the oldest chapters like black templars, UM, blood angels who had more than that.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

BFG says that "Most Space Marine Chapters control two or three battle barges." So, yeah, they do.

Do keep in mind that there's not a "Battle Barge" class that they crank out of shipyards. The Space Sharks, for example, refitted a Charibdys class Grand Cruiser into a Battle Barge.

On a side note, the chapter Sons of Medusa sent 5-6 companies worth of Space Marines to fight in the Badab War and they came with 2 forge ships. That ought to give a reasonable number for forge ships for a fleet based chapter. Then again they're offshoots of the Iron Hands, and they share their ancestor's love of machinery. So it may be a high estimation? Or perhaps a low one, if their other capital ships are heavily fitted with their own manufacturing and refit centers. Hrm...


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I suppose we should put _some_ parameters on this...
Any Chapter fleet would have to fit with the Imperial seperation of forces; the Imperial Navy already have issues with the Astartes having a Lance-equipped Escort, so we can't get too excited with the stuff they can lug around.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at is what weaknesses might a Chapter fleet have and what would they be allowed to have to try to fill them?
It seems some sort of forgeship is agreed on- I imagine they would need some larger facility for repair and fabrication than even a Battlebarge can supply, specially if you've got lots of large complex stuff that needs fixing.
Might they take some sort of dedicated defence Monitor? How these beasts would keep up, I've no idea. Would they be allowed some sort of fighter defence, void or atmospheric? This seems troublesome, I imagine the IN being unhappy about it, unless it was scaled to be only close-support in atmosphere or fighter suppression in space. As long as an Astartes fleet can't do it all, then we have room to manouver.
I can see minelayers being useful, stealth-ish scouts. But what stuff might do the heavy lifting from void to mud? Aquilla landers; bigger versions, maybe? I know I'm asking a lot, but I'd like to leaven my ideas with other folk's POV so I don't go too overboard!

GFP


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Considering Battle Barges are of a similar size to IN Battleships but only carry 3 Companies worth of Astartes...well that is a lot of unused space if that's simply the case. Whilst I imagine a dedicated Forge Ship would be required for larger repairs, manufacturing etc the Battle Barges themselves likely have extensive armouries and manufactory levels- no use being able to ferry a strike force of marines if you can't keep them at effective operating strengths with repairs etc.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Fortress monastery could probably fill in whatever is required. As I said earlier, if you intend your chapter to break up into multiple fleets, some forgeships would probably be required. If you want them to stick together then probably not.

Though keep in mind that the norm is that they'd break up as a whole chapter is overkill for everything except the more direst situations.

Ships incapable of enter the warp could dock with the Fortress monastery.

And, really, the IN can complain all they want, but unless a Chapter does some really questionable things (holding back geneseed tithes, killing allies, and even these have some latitude) then a Chapter can generally go on its own merry way. Even the Inquisition turns a blind eye to things as long as the Chapter remains staunchly loyal.

Mine layers and the like don't really fit with Space Marine planetary assault doctrine. Even in fleet engagements they're pretty straight forward: get close and either pound the enemy ship to dust or board it.

As I said earlier, they don't need any heavy lifting. What's the heaviest thing they need to move? A Land Raider? It fits in a Thunder Hawk.


----------



## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

hailene said:


> The BFG book says that 3 thunderhawks is sufficient to deploy an entire company with all their equipment. Therefore a BB's 9 is enough for 3 companies. And astoundingly, it says that fortress monasteries can hold up to 30 or more Thunder Hawks (theorically deploying an entire Chapter at once!)


Realistically, it would take at least four Thunderhawks to deploy a full strength company at once. Each Thunderhawk is capable of carrying up to 30 power armored marines (terminators take up two places and a dreadnought takes up 5). Since the Thunderhawk also serves a space interceptor/bomber role, the regular complement for strike cruiser would probably be at least four or more Thunderhawks, with at least one or two additional Thunderhawk Transporter variants to land heavy vehicles.

I could see some chapters using a limited number of Lightning fighters for point defense and perhaps even close fighter support, though that probably wouldn't be sanctioned by the codex.

Of course, some chapters just do whatever they want. The Space Wolves operate at least two imperial battleships (the Pride of Fenris the Iron Wolf) in addition to several battle barges and strike cruisers.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

BFG says that 3 Thunderhaws is sufficient to send an entire company planetside. Imperial Armour II says it can only carry 30 Space Marines. Pick one or another, since typically a full strength company would be closer to 105 men. So whether a Thunderhawk can carry ~35 men or 30 men is unclear.

On the other hand, Imperial Armour II mentions different Thunderhawk variants. The Thunderhawk gunship we're familiar with carries 30 marines, supposedly. There's the Thunderhawk Transporter that can bring down one Land Raider or two Rhinos at a time. It's only armed with heavy bolters for self-defense, though. It can't carry men down, though it does have an attachment for an underslung supply pod that can carry fuel, ammo, and "other important supplies".

None of the Space Marine ships use strike craft of any sort in BFG, though Imperial Armour II states that there is a deep-space bombing configuration for Thunderhawks.

On the ground, they use Thunderhawks for close air support, saturation bombing, and long-range bombing missions. 

The Space Marines don't appear to use any sort of air-superiority fighters.

And I don't think the Space Marines would use Lightnings in Space, as Imperial Armour I says that Thuderbolts and Lightnings can be given rocket booster engines to work in space, but it's purely for transportation or deployment purposes. Furies are used for space superiority, running CAP, and the like.


----------



## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

I think it would really rankle the Navy if a chapter started operating its own Furies, but who knows?

If the crew of a Thunderhawk aren't included in the 30 Space Marine capacity, I suppose that gets closer to fitting a full company on three of them; assuming that companies are rarely at full strength, three probably would suffice most of the time.

According to the Space Marine Codex, the Ultramarines' Fleet Command consists of 8 Strike Cruisers, 3 Battle Barges, 12 Rapid Strike Vessels and a mere 31 Thunderhawk Gunships. If that's the sum total of the chapter's Thunderhawks, that's fewer than three Thunderhawks per capital ship, which seems woefully inadequate to me (if each battle barge typically carries 9, that leaves a mere 4 Thunderhawks for the 8 Strike Cruisers); I suspect that each company could have Thunderhawks assigned to them that aren't included in the Fleet Command totals.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I chalk it up to them taking on the Hive fleets Kraken and Levi plus their little party with the Tau.

That could account for a lot of lost Thunderhawks. 

Then there's M'kar the reborn being, well, reborn, and other "warlords" attacking the Ultramar empire. Their forces are probably hurting.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Thing is, when the Order of Battle is written for most Chapters, there is still this small number of Thunderhawks. Certainly, if you set all the 'hawks to one task you can do what the fluff says; my issue is what happens when you come to split missions, each one just as important and immediate. In cases like that you need something else to shoulder the burden.
A heavy-lift ship could take Astartes in if it's not dropping into danger, although a 'hawk csn be more aggressive.
What if you need you 'hawks for planetside ops and you're under attack from void fighters? AAA can only take you so far before fighters of your own are necessary.
Just like the troop 'hawk, your Transporters will be oversubscribed in one small area; what if you need to move armour/supplies when there are no Transporters?
You get the jist...
With the minelayer idea above, I know they're not very 'Astartes', but if your only void-fighters are taking troops around the battlefields below then area-denial and narrowing avenues of attack would be hugely welcome.
I'm not looking for fluff 'justification' for these things- I can spout the necessary fluff-crap to make mos things fit!- I'm interested to see what consensus we can reach on unexplored ships in a Chapter-sized, or large at least, fleet.

GFP


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

To my knowledge they don't have a heavy lift ship. They have Thudnerhawks designed to take down heavy cargo (Land raiders and other vehicles). If you want your marines to have some sort of super-lander like the Guard have, then go for it. It's not something Space Marines usually have, though.

The escorts (the frigates) are there to fend off bombers and smaller ships. The Astartes don't use fighters.

Space Marines can do a lot with very little, and they generally don't fight very long. They're in and out sort of deals, unless they're defending. And if they're defending, supplies aren't too much of an issue, hopefully.

As I said earlier, Space Marines don't use any sort of void fighter.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think we may have drifted slightly from the point. I'm not trying to 'up-gun' my DIY fleet to be some uber-mega galaxy crusher, rather I'm just trying to explore perceived weaknesses when a large fleet/Taskforce heads out.
With the small number of Thunderhawks, and smaller number of Transporters, the mobility, and size, of a deployment is severly limited. What if you want to move more than 1 Company at a time? You can carry troops in the vehicles being transported (anyone picture Jason Statham grimacing in the cockpit?), but that's more risk and, again, you're putting all of your aircraft in the same place with none left over for other important operations.
Certainly, I underestimated how many Escort-class ships a Chapter would have. The, seeming, swarms of these would be a good counter for enemy fighters, although I still see there being 'wiggle-room' for some short-range, defensive void-fighters in an Astartes fleet. Seperation of powers would probably allow them if they were very short-ranged (IE operating only within fleet itself, weaving between the friendly ships) and only able to be used against enemy fighters/bombers. Having the range and munitions to threaten an opposing fleet, however, might upset the IN...
This isn't about making the Astartes more powerful; rather it's about trying to identify any 'niche' roles that go unfulfilled in an Astartes fleet, and if such roles are usual or situational, and hypothesising what might fill it in a way that upholds the Imperial Naval policy?
When it comes to the heavy-lifter, I'm imagining something that can carry about the same as a Thunderhawk, but slower and with less offensive/defensive firepower. This does the donkey work, although it might only be of use when the deployment is going to be extended and based in one place, rather than the hit-and-run strikes you would usually get. Useful if you need to get bulk supplies and the Thunderhawk crew is getting pissy about the floor getting dirty...

GFP


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

On a Strike Cruiser you never move more than a company at a time. There's only a company.

Likewise, on a BB there's only ever 3 companies on it. At any given time you can ship every marine down to the planet in a matter of minutes. Combined with drop pods you can probably drop off most of their heavy equipment with them.

The Astartes fleet doesn't really do fleet actions, not in the Imperial Navy sense. They drive straight towards the enemy fleet, get close where they can do the most damage, and initiate boarding actions to take out enemy ships (engineering sections, bridge, ect). They do not use fighters, whether limited or not.

The heavy lifter you're talking about is the Thunderhawk Transporter. It's a variant of the Thunderhawk Gunship we're all familiar with.

I've repeated these points a few times already. I feel like I'm answer your questions. Could you perhaps create a list of specific questions you'd like answered so I may better help you?


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I really do appreciate you taking the time to post in this thread, but you're right- I don't think I've got my point across about what I'm really after.
When it comes to what is part of an Astartes fleet, I know what there is. I know about the Thunderhawk and the Thunderhawk Transporter. My point is that whenever I have seen any fleet organisation written down, giving us figure for how many of what there is, there doesn't seem to be enough Thunderhawks to do the jobs that are required of them.
Certainly, you could have an entire Company delivered by Thunderhawk. You could do fleet-defense with them. You could do support runs and vehicle drops. But if you choose to assign them to one role, there aren't enough to give to the other; also, if a fleet is equipped with enough to take on _all_ of these roles, then there aren't _any_ left for any other Chapter Taskforce.
This is what I'm getting at. In a Chapter's vehicle pool, there aren't enough Thunderhawks to go around and there are even less Thunderhawk Transporters. So, without trying to inflate these numbers beyond what is canon, there needs to be some other vehicles that the Astartes use. If you have, say, 5 Thunderhawks and 2 Transporters (which would seem to be average, although still edging towards too many) in one Taskforce, and you need to deliver troops, vehicles and supplies, whilst at the same time the fleet in orbit needs to be defended from attack and the attacker's ships need to be attacked in turn by Thunderhawks. Not enough to go around. If there are, then it means every other Chapter Taskforce has none. There _has_ to be something else the Astartes will use.
So, I suppose, my question would be, what characteristics would a multi-use, non-Astartes piloted (non-Thunderhawk) ship look like and be able to (not)do? 
Same again with the fighters idea. If such things didn't have such a great effect, and enough returned from their missions so that they had enough to re-use again and again, then the best defence against them is other fighters. The Thunderhawk is a fantastic counter _but there aren't enough_, specially if they are pulling other duties. So, what characteristics would a 'allowable' fighter have? Piloted by Serfs, of course, not Marines.
I hope this makes more sense.

GFP


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

There's *at least* 3 per a Strike Cruiser and *at least* 9 for a Battle Barge. That gives the minimum to land all your men down at once. You can go back for more as needed.

And you may not need to plop all your men down at once. You might only need a squad or a two to clear an objective.

And as I said again and again, Thunderhawks aren't used in space. They're not really usable in space. All they can do in space is move around just enough to dock with a ship.

And it's not like Thunderhawks can only fit 30 marines as if they were sardines. They bring spare ammo,grenades, and support weapons down with them. There's enough time for the Thunderhawk to circle back and pick up a load of supplies as needed.

A Thunderhawk doesn't have to be every where at once. They could drop off marines in a nearby forest and wait the couple hours it'd take to drop supplies off. If you're in a super rush, say an enemy fleet is going to transition into the system in the next 45 minutes, you can opt to use drop pods to land the marines and use the Thunderhawks to drop off any vehicles you need.

And how many supply runs or vehicle drops do you think they'd need? 3 or so a company? That's just a few trips, back and forth.

I'll say this one last time in bold, orange letters:

THUNDERHAWKS ARE NOT USED AS FIGHTERS. SPACE MARINES DO NOT UTILIZE SPACE-BASED FIGHTERS IN THEIR FLEETS.

Edit: I've been going through some of the Imperial Armours and noticed that they gave the Thunderhawk complements on some of them.

For one of them, a battle barge holds 9 Thunderhawk gunships and 6 Thunderhawk transports.

One Strike Cruiser holds 4 gunships and 3 transporters.

A pair of Strike cruisers hold 12 gunships and 8 transporters.

A battle barge and 3 Striker Cruisers hold 15 gunships and 18 transporters.

That gives a lot of wiggle room. A lot more than even I thought they had.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

A lot more than I thought as well. Makes me a little sad my imagination-hawks mightn't be needed at all!
For what it's worth, the Lex article on the T-hawk says it is incredibly successful as a void-fighter, able to take more punishment and hang around longer than those it fights. There's also the fact that in, I believe _Hunt for Voldorius_, the White Scars leave their main vessels well away from the orbit they want and infiltrate in their Thunderhawks. BFG also talks about them being used as Assault Boats, so they *can* be used in space beyond being just intra-orbit transports.
Didn't appreciate the bold orange, by the way. If I have an idea, it's usually come from somewhere; if you don't agree fine, but even if you don't think I'm getting your point just move on and don't patronise me. It rather spoiled the discussion. Thanks for joining in, I reckon I'm better off now with the IA info.

GFP


----------



## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Oh, the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights do also use Stormraven Gunships, which are sort of scaled down versions of the Thunderhawk with more maneuverability and a lot of firepower. It's likely that Blood Angels successor chapters would also use these, and considering their utility, other chapters might adopt them as well (I could definitely see them being used by Raven Guard, for instance).

As for simple utility ships, they probably use Arvus Lighters or some other unarmed shuttle/transport craft to ferry serfs and supplies to and from their ships in orbit.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Edit: Scratch that all. I was reading the Space Marine codex for a little tidbit and stumbled upon this:

"Although initially designed to airlift Space Marines into the battlezone and then provide fire support, the Thunderhawk's role has broadened considerably over the millennium, with many chapters using them as...spacebound heavy fighters"

So apparently Thunderhawk gunships can be used as fighters. Go figure.


----------



## airdale91 (May 23, 2011)

GFP,

I to am working on a DIY Fleet Based Chapter and trying determine the amount of and type of ships so that it's realistic. 

After reading this thread, I remember something that read about another DIY chapter that I came across. They had added their own style of IG type soldiers that fought along side the Marines. The were part of the Chapter. To me, that is a neat idea. the Regular troops could be used for defensive while the SM's are handling the offensive.

So now to what you asking about, with the space fighters. Why not do the same thing, but style it with to the IN. The chapter could have have a few small carrier type ships that hold a couple of squadrons. They woulnd't be needed for protecting the main fleet, but for a Stike Cruiser Task Force. Attach a carrier ship along the the SCTF, they could handle the small stuff. Chaos War bands are also made up on renegade IG and IN personnel.

Honestly, I don't think the IN would gripe to much. It would only be a handle full of carrier ships, with a small amount of fighters. Besides, depending on what's happening to the IN when the SMTF got to the fight, the IN could use the extra fighters.

Just a thought


----------



## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

I'd imagine that Chapter serfs would provide at least a portion of the security aboard a chapter vessel. For instance, a chapter Cobra-class destroyer only has 5 Space Marines assigned to it. Serfs are frequently aspirants or their descendants that didn't make the cut to be a Space Marine, but they would still likely be a cut above to have even tried and would be still be trained, armed and equipped by the chapter. They don't go into offensive engagements, but they are relied on to act as auxiliaries in the defense of the chapter fortress and vessels, alongside the Space Marines.

Depending on the status of the chapter, it might get away with having a dedicated carrier vessel, though a chapter fleet with a carrier and Nova-class frigates would almost certainly rouse the suspicions of both the Navy and the Inquisition. I still think Stormravens are a nice solution for fighter-bomber and interceptor duties for those chapters that can obtain them.


----------

