# The Outsider is the Hivemind?



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What is your opinion on this revelation?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

The Hive Mind is not nearly insane enough to be the Outsider.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh boy, Lux thread! You sure didnt try too hard with this one though. Not only has the idea been brought up repeatedly, but it isn't even that hard to quash (Especially in light of the new fluff).
I do not believe the Tyranids are being led by a C'tan Shard.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well actually I made this thread due to the new necron codex, prior to it I would have never thought that the outsider was the hive mind. However due to the new codex I now believe it is a strong possibility


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Lux, I am disappoint. Usually, you have paragraphs and paragraphs of stuff to wade through to figure out what you're trying to convey, and at the end you feel even more confused than at the start. 

This thread is concise and to the point, but it doesn't provide any evidence, merely claims it's a known fact when it's no more than a theory.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Lux said:


> Well actually I made this thread due to the new necron codex, prior to it I would have never thought that the outsider was the hive mind. However due to the new codex I now believe it is a strong possibility


I am convinced. 
After the sharding, the Outsider planted itself in a remote galaxy and found strange insectoid life. In their collective insanity, the Outsider shards establish themselves as psionic resonators, which grow in power and lead the insectoid race to other more nommable galaxies. The Silent King recognizes the threat the Tyranid army represents by the Outsider (now hive minds (also plural just because there are more than one I have evidence)) and teams up with Marines because of it.

...lux seemed to say


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, the Hive Mind is a warp based entity. C'tan and their shards are not. There is no logical way to tie them together. 

C'tan shards can effect mental powers, but they cannot account for the tyranid's shadow in the warp which is a psychic phenomenon.

No, no revelation at all, just a disappointing beating of a pointless dead horse.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The hive mind operates in the warp, something that, as serpion pointed out C'tan are incapable of. Besides, the outsider is mad crazy. The Tyranids are way too organized and effective to be the Outsider.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> Well actually I made this thread due to the new necron codex, *prior to it I would have never thought that the outsider was the hive mind.*


Thats something I can't bring myself to believe... :laugh: Especially given some of your previous theories (Emperor is Asuryan, Horus was an avatar of the Deciever, Slaanesh is actually Khaine, the being on the Golden Throne is not the Emperor but actually Horus, Night Haunter has a papier-mâché head and is also an avatar of the Outsider, Ferrus Manus didn't get decapitated, and that there are "clues in the many of the dexs" which support all of these theories)

What I do want to know though is whether you've now changed your mind, a while ago you posted: _"Asuryan now as hive mind of tyrannids is heading to terra,knowing the truth of ctan rulled imperium, to destroy it to save galaxy."_ (I can't directly quote as the thread was closed). So is the Hive Mind now the Outsider rather than Asuryan?

On a side note _Lux_, I am now convinced that more than one person uses your account - given the gulf in grammar/spelling, evidence posted and general effort gone into some of your posts between threads.

Also, if we're playing along with this theory, would you please cite your evidence so it can be torn apart?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I've heard this theory before. Can't remember if it was from Lux or not (although the odds seem pretty good that it was). I think the Hive Mind is absolutely a separate entity from The Outsider. However, I didn't know it actually operated in the Warp; I thought its "shadow" was an ability, but not an effect of it using the Warp. Yay for learning new things. That fact completely destroys this theory.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...Night Haunter has a papier-mâché head and is also an avatar of the Outsider...


Lol.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

This kind of intrigue is gone. Newcron C'tans are just shards to be used as measly slaves. Outsider was listed as a C'tan shard in White Dwarf.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It was a barely credible theory anyway...


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

the mind, whether shared or not, of any creaure exists (at least partially) in the material universe, as well as in the warp. (How else could psykers breach the gap to use their powers?) So, maybe the outsider shards have some sort of hold the realspace-part of the tyranid hive mind?

And certainly, the outsiders' shards goal is to destroy the necrons and/or reunite the c'tan shards. Tyranids seem like a pretty ineffective tool for that. Hence, the fractured mind and insanity of the outsider are taken into account. Remember: crazy and stupid are not mutually exclusive.

Buuuut, since the general consensus of everyone else is that it doesn't appear to be clearly stated or even hinted at in any canon sources, this is all purely rendered to fan speculation.

P.S. Lux, according to the attitudes of everyone else, you're like the resident 40k conspiracy theorist lolcow? would this be accurate?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

I wonder if the Outsider is actually fully sharded.

Look at the allegations about him being in the Dyson Sphere. If he is, then surely it's entirely possible that he's 'largely intact' within the DS, and is merely being held prisoner there. When people need to _use_ it, they do so by 'quarrying' the Outsider for shards. The composite Outsider is thoroughly restrained and impressively bonkers - but as shards? Well, they could be highly variable, but individual shards could be impressively... normal. Lucid, even, albeit not aware of their diminished state. (Or if they are: they might just be _co-operative_ with the Necrons rather than mindless slaves. The other shards have to be slaved because they're not insane, they're bits of gods. But bits of an insane god being sane? I like it.)

So, having that as an option, I vastly prefer it to the Outsider being the Hivemind, mainly because it could be anyone/anything. Whereas what we know of the Outsider, it seems more... neat, to have the Necrons be quarrying the insane person and exploiting it for further use.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

In my opinion the Tyranids were created by the Old ones, they had tried countless times to undermine, destroy, overcome chaoses influence, but the psychically attuned races THEY created where far too inexorably intertwined to chaos, as long as psychically attuned races i.e. their creations existed, chaos would always have a foothold, so after trying loads of different things they (or perhaps a more group of radical ones) created the tyranids, this foe would utterly consume every opponent, and with every battle go not only stronger and smarter, but consume and catalogue billions of years worth of evolutionary data, as they keep fighting new races in different conditions they use the genetic information they took to overcome the new prey, they will (or at least the old ones hope) eventually wipe out all races (starting with the more psychically attuned, hence they go after the emperor), after all the enemies are overcome the Tyranids will be starved of prey, but more importantly so will chaos.

Thus the galaxy will be returned to its original state, the old ones will have learned from their mistakes and in honor of their previous prototype races ,would use the accumulated genetic DNA that the Tyranids had consumed to create their new races.

not really thread related, but fuck it


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I believe Lux. Though his theory is flawed in a number of ways.

First and foremost -- I don't even know what the Outsider is. 

Secondly, the Emperor isn't even on the Golden Throne, he's already been reincarnated and was killed during the Psyker Cullings of the Black Ships -- alas, he never foresaw dying again and having to relearn who he was ... terrible it is then, that the Emperor damned himself over and over. Ironic isn't it?

Thirdly, Horus isn't dead. He mind switched with Abaddon at the last moment.

Fourth, the Hive Mind is in fact the psychic manifest of Horus' rage made manifest while the Tau were elevated to the heights of technology by the psyche will of the Emperor, who after 50,000 years of constant Human failure said "Fuck this bullshit!" and is now leading the Tau.

Lastly, Lux is the one upon the Golden Throne of Terra and we're all heretical adepts he's locked within a Matrix-type device. We are being tested brothers -- which pill should we take?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

This is probably Lux's best argument so far. And when I mean best I mean there is a microscopic shred of speculative proof supporting it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> This is probably Lux's best argument so far. And when I mean best I mean there is a microscopic shred of speculative proof supporting it.


Ironic, then, that he presents no evidence.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The reason the Outsider is contained within a Dyson sphere is simple. 

The necrons missed on of the shards. The eldar, not having access to tesseract labyrinths, made do with what they could. This took the form of the Dyson sphere. It isn't anything special, just extenuating circumstance.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The tyranids were created by the Old Ones? Right I can see it now:

"Okay guys, the wars obviously not goin our way so I've got this idea, bare with me. We've created these races that, while interesting, not packing that much of a punch. With that in mind, I've decided to up the ante. Instead of sentient creatures, lets create an entire race of multiple species ruled by a warp 'Hive Mind' and let them perpetuate by devouring and reproducing from organic matter. I know, the Necrons and C'tan aren't biological organisms but I see this going great. There's no way this isn't a suicidal idea that will eventually become the other possible doom of the universe. So who's in?"


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

The Outsider can't be the Hivemind, because he is quite clearly Zombie Jesus. All you have to do is look at any of the 5th ed 'dexes or the bible, it's supported in pretty much all of them. 

82% of scientists agree.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> The Outsider can't be the Hivemind, because he is quite clearly Zombie Jesus. All you have to do is look at any of the 5th ed 'dexes or the bible, it's supported in pretty much all of them.
> 
> 82% of scientists agree.


Aye, but 99.9% of statisticians agree that 71% of statistics on the Internet are fabricated. So... where does this leave us? Oh, right. The Outsider is the Hive Mind!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Aye, but 99.9% of statisticians agree that 71% of statistics on the Internet are fabricated. So... where does this leave us? Oh, right. The Outsider is the Hive Mind!


I can't trust those numbers, when 300% of statistics are made up on the spot.

8 out of 10 elephants agree.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The tyranids were created by the Old Ones? Right I can see it now:
> 
> "Okay guys, the wars obviously not goin our way so I've got this idea, bare with me. We've created these races that, while interesting, not packing that much of a punch. With that in mind, I've decided to up the ante. Instead of sentient creatures, lets create an entire race of multiple species ruled by a warp 'Hive Mind' and let them perpetuate by devouring and reproducing from organic matter. I know, the Necrons and C'tan aren't biological organisms but I see this going great. There's no way this isn't a suicidal idea that will eventually become the other possible doom of the universe. So who's in?"


Well if you put it in a sarcastic context, you can discredit pretty much anything.

How about a more serious attempt? :wink: 

_'This shall be our final creation, our legacy to a galaxy lost to war of our own making. They shall return to this place upon their awakening and they shall consume and scour our past mistakes. The differences between our past creations have led to naught but dissent, and for this we must abandon all notions of free will.

These creatures shall unite all life in this galaxy and others by force, and with such might at their disposal the Great Enemy will finally be starved and conquered. 

May our creations, our children, forgive us for this last desperate act...' _


Regardless of whether this is true or not, the tyranids being a creation of the Old Ones is an infinitely more credible theory than the Outsider being the Hive Mind.  

One that I personally hold to be quite a realistic possibility, all things considered.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Eloquently written, Thanks Serpion.
should point out my theory is also the fact that the Tyranids only have degrees of autonomy, the hivemind has the Most because it needs to think, to evolve its strategic ethos, but ultimatley the old ones have final say over who/when/where.
they are basically a Galactic restart button.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Eloquently written, Thanks Serpion.
> should point out my theory is also the fact that the Tyranids only have degrees of autonomy, the hivemind has the Most because it needs to think, to evolve its strategic ethos, but ultimatley the old ones have final say over who/when/where.
> they are basically a Galactic restart button.


Technically, the Overmind of each fleet (typically embodied by a dominant Hive Tyrant) has control. The Hive Mind is a collection of racial thoughts and memories that spans between fleets. It is the repository of all knowledge the tyranids have accrued, not necessarily an aware entity in itself. 

This is my theory after taking notes on tyranid behaviour in various sources.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

It is also interesting to note _Serp_ that the Tyranids are noted in their codex as being referred to as the _"penance of the elder gods"_...

Personally though, I dont find much credibility in such theories.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> _'This shall be our final creation, our legacy to a galaxy lost to war of our own making. They shall return to this place upon their awakening and they shall consume and scour our past mistakes. The differences between our past creations have led to naught but dissent, and for this we must abandon all notions of free will.
> 
> These creatures shall unite all life in this galaxy and others by force, and with such might at their disposal the Great Enemy will finally be starved and conquered.
> 
> May our creations, our children, forgive us for this last desperate act...' _


Good theory Serpion! Really well written, I think it is a pretty good theory actually, either that or maybe Lost&Damned was right and the Tyranids were supposed to be some kind of intergalactic eraser. They swarm across the universe, kill everything, die out, then the necrons are happy because all the living things aren't living anymore, then they go back to sleep and the Old Ones get back to work rebuilding the universe. Only they died. So the plan didn't quite work. Ooops 

On a more serious note though, I think that the Old Ones could have made the tyranids, your quote-thing provides a very good argument, kinda reminds me of halo and the Flood...


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

If anything the Tyranids are probably a natural evolution starting out consuming small organisms like itself and growing eventually consuming the whole planet and so forth, so i doubt the hivemind is a ctan god.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Sorry but I don't see it. They could have easily built in failsafes if they wanted to truly "control" their children. If you look at it logically the tyranids if they are successful have only one eventually future: extinction. If they do succeed in taking out all life in the universe what will sustain them if they are completely successful? Wiping out all life in the universe use to be the aim of only one faction: the Necron/C'tan originally. The Old Ones represented the will of life and perpetuation as did the races they created. To unleash a species that will eventually consume and destroy itself seems adverse to their original aims. 


The Tyranids in my opinion are a production of cosmic nature. The thought is many of you who still cling to ridiculous notions of intelligent design think there is some grand puppeteer that either or both created and controlls these creatures. The miniscule warp presence they had in the unexplored eastern fringes of space, combined with them developing unmolested for millenia, and combining to create a warp presence with perpetuation as its sole purpose in existence. If the Old Ones could create such a force why not manufacture a race that fed off of C'tan energy? IMO, I see these things representing the will of cosmic nature and wildlife magnified by trillions upon trillions of minscule warp presences forming a Hive Mind.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i dont think you read my post properly, they are MEANT to eventually starve, then using the accumulated genetic information that they harvested to create new species, in sort of "memory/commemoration" of the races they created, they didnt make fail safes because they didn't originally know they were gonna screw with the warp to such a degree.
They would destroy the newer races to save it from a fate worse than...death (subservience to chaos), cliched but it makes sense, again, they are a galactic restart button.
"after all the enemies are overcome the Tyranids will be starved of prey, but more importantly so will chaos." a quote from my post
i cba repeating what i wrote and what serp said, stop being such a douche and read it properly.
however i have no qualms with your Opinion in your second paragraph.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Wiping out all life in the universe use to be the aim of only one faction: the Necron/C'tan originally.


Quick correction: The C'tan/Necrons of the old lore never intended to exterminate all life in the universe, just sudbue it to a state where the red harvests could be enacted at will.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye, the simple solution to that quandry is that they are too good at surviving for their own good. Nobody ever claimed that even the tyranids were the perfect life form. And fail-safes beforehand were probably not deemed necessary by such a powerful race. They exterminated entire species and brought about new ones, I doubt dissent was going to be an issue.

If extinction is the tyranids' only outcome, then that may well be the case. However, it is neither their concern nor their goal for all we know. :dunno: 


I just like to speculate.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I quite like the idea that the Tyranid race is fleeing from something en masse. Which makes you question, what is big and bad enough for them to run away as a whole?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Quick correction: The C'tan/Necrons of the old lore never intended to exterminate all life in the universe, just sudbue it to a state where the red harvests could be enacted at will.


The plan to cut off the Warp from the materium forever would have killed all sentient life in the galaxy. Granted, it probably would have come back and then been enslaved by the C'tan/Necrons, but I suppose they have all the time they need to wait for that to happen so it's a bit of a moot point.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

How would it have killed them? Being separated from the warp suddenly makes everyone's brain explode? What about non-psyker races like Tau?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> How would it have killed them? Being separated from the warp suddenly makes everyone's brain explode? What about non-psyker races like Tau?


They still have very small presences in the warp, barely registered, but still there. I'm guessing a psychic backlash from having the dimension connected to every soul in the galaxy suddenly sundered from reality would have been slightly detrimental to living.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> They still have very small presences in the warp, barely registered, but still there. I'm guessing a psychic backlash from having the dimension connected to every soul in the galaxy suddenly sundered from reality would have been slightly detrimental to living.


Doubtless lots of people would die but I am not convinced every single sentient form of life would (that's a *lot* of stuff). Further the goal of the plan is to eliminate chaos as a threat, that everything else might die is a side-effect, not the aim (as was claimed).


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Doubtless lots of people would die but I am not convinced every single sentient form of life would (that's a *lot* of stuff). Further the goal of the plan is to eliminate chaos as a threat, that everything else might die is a side-effect, not the aim (as was claimed).


Back then, I dunno. The galaxy was not as inhabited by sentient life forms as it is now. The Necrons were the dominant race that covered most of the galaxy at the time and it wouldn't have affected them. So the Eldar and a handful of other races would have been killed. Humanity wouldn't have been touched since they weren't sentient yet. I dunno, sounds plausible to me. Also, there was no Chaos as we know it during the war in heaven. It was just Warp entities attacking stuff. The Chaos gods hadn't manifested yet so there wasn't anything to really fight and no one was worshiping Chaos at the time. Granted, since the Warp is ever-present in time, the Chaos gods could have existed before they existed but I don't think GW had thought that part through as the story developed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SoulGazer said:


> The plan to cut off the Warp from the materium forever would have killed all sentient life in the galaxy.


No it wouldn't have, undoubtedly it would have had significant consequences and would have killed many - but everyone? No.

Look at the Word Bearers series when the Nexus Arrangement was activited, the loss of connection to the warp had a detrimental effect but did not suddenly kill everyone.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No it wouldn't have, undoubtedly it would have had significant consequences and would have killed many - but everyone? No.
> 
> Look at the Word Bearers series when the Nexus Arrangement was activited, the loss of connection to the warp had a detrimental effect but did not suddenly kill everyone.


Ehh, the Nexus Arrangement was a plot device. If the Necrons could make and transport those things everywhere Chaos is dead meat. I mean, how did the Word Bearers even teleport if the warp was blocked? The Oldcrons were written to be unstoppable and counter Chaos, but I seriously doubt they have anything like the Nexus Arrangement now. They have Null Field Matricies, true, but as far as I can tell those are rare and don't completely block the warp, just kinda interfere with it a lot. And they're certainly not mobile as far as I can tell.

Edit: Teleporters go through the warp, how did they teleport at all?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay here's the thing. I don't think the Nids are fleeing from anything. They are drawn to the now teeming with life western regions of the galaxy. Who knows, maybe there are systems in the Eastern fringes they were working on that they took a while to absorb. Now it's the west's turn. We have seen many times in nature a mass horde of a species (bees,locust,birds,rats) moving and operating en masse with a singular puprose. Just because it's planetary nature doesn't mean this behavior can't be attributed to cosmic or interplanetary nature as well. Multiple species coming together for a singal primal impulse to perpetuate and feed doesn't really bely any grand intelligence. 

The tyranids in my opinion represent the true horror of nature. The chaos represent the horror of the mind. The Necrons and C'tan represented the horror of technology. At least they use too. These factions were not created by any intelligent design but instead were a result of cosmic nature and circumstance. They just exist.


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## BalancedDiet (Apr 23, 2012)

The entire concept is so full of holes you could put it on a sandwich and call it Swiss cheese (But it wouldn't taste fantastic).

C'Tan not having a warp presence would be the obvious one, they're entirely material and energetic beings.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I've never understood why the C'Tan, beings who feed on pure energy, can't simply gobble up Daemons...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> I've never understood why the C'Tan, beings who feed on pure energy, can't simply gobble up Daemons...


The warp is the only dimension that the c'tan could not manipulate to their will. Daemons, being composed of said energy, are not a valid food source.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, I don't get that. How can they feed on the energies of a Star or a lifeforce equally, but not the other-realm life-force? Do things they eat still exist in the Warp? I think it's implied otherwise somewhere...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, I don't get that. How can they feed on the energies of a Star or a lifeforce equally, but not the other-realm life-force? Do things they eat still exist in the Warp? I think it's implied otherwise somewhere...


Mortal forms give off energy in the form of heat and bioelectricity. The c'tan are able to feed off this, but warp based energy such as souls are simply cast to the warp as with any normal death.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Ok, but Daemons possess energy from our universe, or else they'd incorporeal.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I do love a good read of a Lux thread.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Surely if any of the C'Tan are the hive mind it would be Iash'uddra the Endless Swarm. Personally I think the only C'Tan that are important fluff-wise are the Deceiver, Nightbringer, and Void Dragon (Possibly the Omnissiah?)


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

SoulGazer said:


> They still have very small presences in the warp, barely registered, but still there. I'm guessing a psychic backlash from having the dimension connected to every soul in the galaxy suddenly sundered from reality would have been slightly detrimental to living.


By this theory anything entering a null field or standing next to someone with the pariah gene (And people WITH the pariah gene for that matter) should just drop dead from having their connection to the warp severed. It wouldn't kill everyone. Psykers? Probably. It would at least drive them mad. But Average Joe? Probably not.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> By this theory anything entering a null field or standing next to someone with the pariah gene (And people WITH the pariah gene for that matter) should just drop dead from having their connection to the warp severed. It wouldn't kill everyone. Psykers? Probably. It would at least drive them mad. But Average Joe? Probably not.


Blanks and Pariahs are still psykers, they're just anti-psyker psykers. They push the warp away, but they don't block it completely. A blank can be "burned out" by being near a powerful psyker for too long as happened in the last book of the Ravenor trilogy. (No idea if this is also possible for pariahs.)

An event like the warp being _severed_ from the entire galaxy wouldn't just backlash into the minds of living beings, but into their souls, the part that is able to be in both realms, the very part that _actually_ gives the Chaos gods form and power. It would not be just pushing the warp away from everything, it would literally rip the two dimensions apart forever in every way possible. That's a hell of a lot more difficult, and traumatic, than just having the warp pushed away temporarily.


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