# Greater Demons



## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

I've heard they suck, and i've heard speculation at infiltrating a 6-man squad and summoning chaos behind the enemy, Im really interested in anyones experience in using them, i'm most likely going to use one - 
and knowing that is there a best way to use them in your opinions? be opinionated! [[you cant be wrong if its your opinion]] 

thanks!


Edited::

*Terminator Lord compared to Terminator Sorceror?*
whats your take?


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Greater demons can be very potent, just have to use them well, like for your example infiltrating chosen and summoning it there to be a big time tank hunter, they're not useless in the new codex just not /as/ versatile, you need to focus it on one job, and usually that job isnt to counter their CC specialist, but to chew up shooting squads and eat through heavy support


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

thanks for the reply! very helpful [[and quick]]

If i might add on to this thread instead of starting a new one, and still awaiting anymore advice if anyone still wants to offer, I"d also like to ask

[[seeing your sig i can tell you're no stranger to the word bearer's]]

Terminator Lord compared to Terminator Sorceror? [dark apostle]


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Depends on what you want to go for and what mark you are going to give him actually. A Khorne lord with a daemon weapon in term armour is downright viscous while a Slanneshi Sorc can Lach the crap out of units at will while a Tzeentch Sorc can cast 2 powers a turn, etc. Personally, I like the Sorc better for the powers and the force weapon as standard.

As for Greater Daemons, they are dirt cheap, can come out of the champ you choose at the time of the roll instead of a designated one, have brutal stats and are killy as all hell. Totally worth it imho and I run one in all my Thousand Sons lists.


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Depends on what you want to go for and what mark you are going to give him actually. A Khorne lord with a daemon weapon in term armous is downright viscous while a Slanneshi Sorc can Lach the crap out of units at will while a Tzeentch Sorc can cast 2 powers a turn, etc. Personally, I like the Sorc better for the powers and the force weapon as standard.
> 
> As for Greater Daemons, they are dirt cheap, can come out of the champ you choose at the time of the roll instead of a designated one, have brutal stats and are killy as all hell. Totally worth it imho and I run one in all my Thousand Sons lists.


lol, i've been trying to find someone to promote the use of a Greater Daemon, and you're the first to promote one outright, any tips for using one would be very helpful


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

@Wraithlord

Do you summon Greater Daemons out of Aspiring Champions or Aspiring Sorcerors?? If their popping out of Aspiring Sorcerors I think your shooting yourself in the foot but thats just me. Seriously an AS can run you 70Pts+ so your now upping your "dirt cheap" Greater Daemon to nearly double his points cost.

If your popping them out of some Aspiring Champion in a regular (or even Iconed) squad thats a diffrent story.

If you have the Daemon then great.. use them by all means... my last game with Tau vs New Chaos I lost half my Tau army to the Greater Daemon in HtH... so by all means they can be vicous.. it just takes good tactics to make sure you dont waste your points with them. They fall victim of being fire magnets to HS squads/vehicles.


On to your second question Apostle... Terminator Lord if those were my only choices... a friend and I were looking at Terminator Sorcerors the other day and the ONLY thing you get with them is a 2+ save versus your regular 3+... on the downside you loose your additional CCW attack and the ability to sweeping advance as well as the points you could have spent getting another power or something. You dont recieve any additional attacks for Terminator armor in the Chaos Codex, there are no options to give it an additional CCW attack, and your sorceror already has the 5+ INV. Personally I would take a plasma pistol over Terminator armor. But if it came down to it I would take a regular Sorceror over a Lord. Sorcerors and Psychic powers are far more potent now a days.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Either a winged sorcerer, or a winged DP with psychic powers ;-) Terminator ICs aren't as awesome as they seem these days (what with the loss of attached command squad/retinues), unless you have a land raider laying around

If you absolutely must have a terminator IC, I would say Sorc, if only for the idea of turning him into an armored sniper. Warptime and Bolt of Change are a potent combo, and his lack of mobility won;t matter much from that range, and even without the extra CCW, he;s still a formidable opponent in CC should anyone get ballsy and charge


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

I think greater deamons are worth it they are cheaper than deamon princes and have better stats the only down side is they have to be summund


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## Moschaboy (Jan 5, 2007)

i think that terminator sorcerors are useless.
i'd just get it a steed bolt of change and warp time and fly around to shoot the side of tanks or rip apart lonely chars and/or support squads.
the termy lord is also only worth it if he sits in a land raider or is used in a counter attack unit when your firepower is superior and the opponent comes your way. the lack of retinue and long range firepower in the new codex almost prevents this lord from beeing useful. i'd rather take a 3 terminators suicide teleport squad with reaper and 2 combi plasmas aa power fist and that chaos glory icon for the points of a termy lord with power weapon.

greater daemons look very good cause they cost almost nohing for their skills, yet they are very slow and need careful champion planning to get them where thei're needed. bikes and chosen could do this. cause when he comes in round 2 you'll have problems reaching the enemy with it for the round it can't move and it's allround slowness.also always consider the points of the champion and the use of it before choosing a greater daemon, cause loosing the champ might cripple the squad (like marines with meltas loosing their pf champ).


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally I'm going for sorcerors without terminator armour. To be hontest TA seems like paying points to make your guy worse.

The only point in taking a lord is a daemon weapon, and I don't like daemon weapons. I like lash and initiative 6 force weapons.

One of the more broken things about lash is that a sorceror with it is one of the cheapest options for your HQ at 125 all in. You could buy him some other stuff like wings or a second power maybe, but I can't really see why you would bother. Wings would be good if they didn't put him in reserve for escalation games.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Yeah sorcerors have become far more usefull and powerfull now a days. I favor using them over lords unless you just have to save points for a small game or something but even then its still worth it. But in TA they only have 3 Attacks.. which isnt very much considering that thats the base that SM Librarians have.. SM Librarians can take TH or TA for +1 as well as additional CCW so thats 5 attacks compared to Sorcerors pallsly 3 in TA.

Im not to thrilled with the new Daemonweapons. The whole roll 1 thing makes Khorne DW do nothing 1/3 the time. Nurgles wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness could be a hinderance against Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and even Tyranid swarm armies. Tzeentch gets a gun which doesnt go through Terminator armor, and Slanneshs is no better than a power weapon against single wound models.. Lamo.. you ask me the best one is actually the generic chaos glory daemon weapon.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> lol, i've been trying to find someone to promote the use of a Greater Daemon, and you're the first to promote one outright, any tips for using one would be very helpful


You need to plan on them coming out at the worst possible moment and compensate for it. If it shows up on turn two and you have it summoned from a champion in the middle of the table then chances are you are going to lose it to shooting without ever hitting enemy lines. Placing it in an Infiltrating Chosen squad or within a Rhino or Land Raider carried squad means that you are more likely to have it close enough to charge when needed. I also like charging my chosen squad into combat asap so that the greater daemon pops up in the middle of combat and can't be shot at all.



> If your popping them out of some Aspiring Champion in a regular (or even Iconed) squad thats a diffrent story.



An infiltrating Chosen champion to be exact. Another thing to think about is if you have a Lord or Daemon Prince as well and it is down to a single wound or such and is most likely to die in the next round anyway. If that is the case, use that model for the Greater Daemon to come out of as a) they were going to die anyway, and b) the appearance of a greater daemon inside an ongoing combat that is about to be won is severely demoralizing to most opponents.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I think you'll find that a unit of Bikers is an excellent way to get your Greater Daemon into combat. I'd try taking a fair size unit, between 4-6 Bikers plus an Aspiring Champion, and then using _Turbo Boost_ to approach your enemy along a flank.

From there, you should be mighty close to the enemy, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get your Greater Daemon into combat.

To expand on this tactic, I've seen people summon Lesser Daemons with the Bikers as well, which can really put a lot of pressure on an enemy's flank.

Food for thought.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah, but a biker champ is a very expensive model to throw away. At least with Chosen it;s only an extra couple points and you could make him the guy without any special weapons.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

and with chosen if you wanted you could take more than one asp, but then you back into expensive territory. Bikers have the most reliabilty, as you can get them where you want them, even when things change, no good in that infiltrating unit if the enemy moves away, or if it comes out late and what you were positioned to attack is already dealt with. the bikes can turboboost around to go for anything you want.
Raptors are the middleground choice as they have the movement, and are cheaper than bikes, but not as tough, and cant move 24 if needed


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Problem with raptors and bikers though is that in those units (especially the raptor) you really need that champ with his powerfist. It's practically a prerequisite for an assault squad. 'Course the daemon will do mor damage, but it means youlre either upgrading a sacrificial lamb so he can be useful before the daemon comes, or you;re taking a power hit for a few turns.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Escalation is an issue. The chosen will be there, the bikes may not. It's no fun having your reserves show up and find a GD sitting in their deployment zone already. 

Of course if you play mech and can come on 4' away then it's less of a problem, but I suppose a GD suffers against mech at the best of times.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> An infiltrating Chosen champion to be exact. Another thing to think about is if you have a Lord or Daemon Prince as well and it is down to a single wound or such and is most likely to die in the next round anyway. If that is the case, use that model for the Greater Daemon to come out of as a) they were going to die anyway, and b) the appearance of a greater daemon inside an ongoing combat that is about to be won is severely demoralizing to most opponents.


Yeah Chosen, Infiltrating, Raptor, and Biker Champions are all good ideas. The wounded HQ units are good to except for DP... hes not a viable unit to be summoned through.. only champions, aspiring sorcerors, sorcerors, and lords will work. I personally tool my champions for cc with pfs so thats the only reason I personally shy away from them.. they just dont fit my style, but I do still think they are viable for use.. I have been on the recieving end of them with my Tau army and it ate through 600pts to devestate my army.


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

You guys are all bringing up great points i havent thought of - if anyones still reading would there be a different strategy from a battle agaisnt some orks to some necrons?

necrons in specific seem to me to completely counter any bikers

whereas agaisnt some orks, I think they'd be alot more effective
[[just one example for mah Q]]


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Necrons dont counter the Bikers.. actually they re-enforce it over the orks. Necron would wound normal Death Guard on 5 and Nurgle Bikers on 6.. Orks wound both the bikers and normal Death Guard on 6s due to only being Str 3. So against the Orks I would go with Icon of Khorne for the extra attack. The Inv wont help you much for Tzeentch, you already have Init so Slaanesh would be wasted as well. Against Necrons though its a toss up between Tzeentch and Nurgle as to wich would get the most benefit. Only wounding on 6s vs having a 5+ Inv against them destroyers...

Against Necrons for heavies I would look at lots of plasma or missle launchers.. plasma would keep you mobile while missle launchers would give you range and would work against CTan and Monoliths. If you have the points go with Las but thats only if you dont mind taking fewer models. Personally the more the merrier I say. Against Orks the more Heavy Bolters the better.. Heavy Bolters and if you want to kill extra points Plasma Cannons. If you want to have fun you can go with Flamers  for an assualty force. 

Again troop wise Death Guard are awesome in both cases... against Necrons you would actually have them beat init wise and toughness wise for just barely more points so the more troops you can take the better your chances of kicking the **** out them. Just remember your Powerfists and plasma guns and your all set.


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

Is that exclusively in CC? I meant on the way up - I worry a little too excessively about the worst possible thing that could happen and try to avoid it, I'm mostly afraid of the bikers getting fucked by destroyers and avg. gauss flayers before they can do anything 
:headbutt:


edited::
Although i'm mostly in a scruff with Necrons, I think it carries over to Tau and nicely positioned devastator/havocs squads, and if i was more experienced I could prolly give more examples with other armies


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## Dartanyun (Nov 14, 2007)

Best suggestion i can give is to make the biker squad 10 men and turbo near a line but not right in front. I guess it comes down to location. pick a good unit on the flank and you will take less fire power, but you would dish out more damage on the clustered units. it all depends on how much you're willing to gamble.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think that a unit of 10 bikers is a lot to pay to deliver your greater daemon.

Personally I think the best thing about daemon princes is that they are cheap relative to their power. You don't want to spend 350 points delivering them or that cheapness is gone.

I think that infiltrating chosen are almost certainly the best delivery systsem. You can just have a patsy champion with no upgraded gear who infiltrates to near the target, deploys in escalation games and then causes trouble. I really don't think you should have a delivery unit that is itself in reserve in omega. What do you do if the daemon appears before the delivery guys?

Another option is to just use the GD for countering enemy assault. You could have a noise marine army, for example, which used a couple of lashes to keep stuff away, had a load of noise marines, havocs and oblitorators to shoot stuff dead, and a GD that could pop out of an aspiring champ in any of your shooty units as required.


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks guys [[I freaking love this site - my gamers club has a forums but no ones ever on and they've all got their "in" clics]]


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## Dartanyun (Nov 14, 2007)

the reason for ten is so that they survive massive shooting, and are still strong enough to assault as well. Plus i just like full squads.


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## darklightknight448 (Nov 9, 2007)

Suck? SUCK?!?! If Daemon Princes are not quite Greater Daemons, and Daemon Princes are, as I learned the hard way, amazing if fully equipped, the greater daemons such as, say, Bloodthirsters must be amazingly amazing when fully eqiupped. Sorry if i'm totally wrong, I don't know all that much about the forces of Chaos.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Compared to the sheer brutality that was the Bloodthirster of the previous codex Dark, yeah they suck. Not to say that they suck so that they shouldn't be used because they are hard as nails for a ridiculously cheap price now, but they don't hold a candle to the old Bloodthirster.

Now if they could still fly.....


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I Tend to find that Greater Daemons Work well against Powerful combat units like Hq's
but I always make sure there are no Snipers because thats a a way around its Toughness also don't take on large infantry units because it will be overwhelmed and his save is'nt too good against massive swarms of attacks.


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