# Oh man am I mad!!!



## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

Ok first off before you tell me to write this elsewhere, there will be a tactics ordeal involved with this post, but first let me start with why I'm angry!

So I'm a Black Templar player, and I really do love my army, but as of lately I was having 2nd thoughts about them. The reason for this being is that my main opponent is my cousin who plays Tau, and let me tell you what more often than not our games aren't even close. He usually just mops the board with me and my men and I couldn't figure out why. 

Normally I ran a dual crusader list at him, with a couple trilas preds in the back giving me some fire support, a venerable tank killing dread, and a small troop in a razorback for additional objective takers. A fairly good well rounded list ya know nothing to specific, more focused on combat than shooting since I'm a combat army blah blah you get it. 

Anyway I went into his room this morning to grab something real quick (we live together btw) and I just happened to notice a piece of paper that I took a gander at... the title "1750 Tau Anti Vehicle/MEQ list".

He has been playing a list totally tailored to beating mine this whole time!:angry: Now arguably I could be considered a nub for not realizing this in game, but I dont play Tau so I wouldn't know how a balanced Tau list would work ya know? So after reading up some forums and comparing his list with what I read, its almost perfectly adapted to wrecking a Mech heavy marine list.... 

So we are going to play a game in the next day or so and again I'm letting him believe I'm taking a slight variant of yet again another mech list... however, I changed things up just a little bit, here is the 1750 I plan on bringing..

HQ

Emperors Champion (Accept any challenge no matter the odds) 140 pts

Reclusiarch (Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol, 3 Cenobyte servitors w/CCW’s) 141 pts	

Reclusiarch (Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol, 3 Cenobyte servitors w/CCW’s) 141 pts	


Troops

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Weapon, Flamer) 9 Neophytes (Close Combat) 266 pts

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Weapon, Flamer) 9 Neophytes (Close Combat) 266 pts

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Fist, Melta) Drop Pod 185 pts

10 Marines (8 Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Plasma Gun) Drop Pod 186 pts

10 Marines (8 Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Plasma Gun) Drop Pod 186 pts

Fast Attack

5 Initiate Bikers (3 power weapons, 2 Bolt Pistols, All CCW’s) 1 Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter) 240 pts


So I believe the tactic is fairly obvious, use the bikes to ride up a flank and cause a distraction, the huge crusader squads (Over 20 models in each) with the chaplains making them fearless and the servitors for extra movement on RZ rolls are coming right up the center. He has a ton of Anti-Tank and very very few Vehicles (3 Devilfish) so the lack of anti armor isnt really a concern for me.

I figure while he wont have enough shots on the board to even think about dealing the the two horde squads coming after him, the drop pods are a nice little extra unish: that he isnt used to countering.

As for what he takes its something like

3 Devilfish, 2 have firewarriors, one has pathfinders

a command squad with pulse rifles? and missle pods

3 more suit squads, equipped the same as command, but one has fusion guns? whatever the tau variant of meltas are

2 3 strong broadside teams

all suits have shield drones

another fire warrior team thats a sit squad, so its something along those lines in a 1750....

Anyway what do you guys think? is this a good plan, pretty much feint the charge up the flank, the real threat being the globs of marines up the center, and then the drop podding to cut him off? personally i think it will work, but opinions are needed. Normally i play fair and nice, but i want this to be a decisive quick "hey i can tailor to ur list too so build a well rounded force" realization game for him.

Any C&C is actually needed here, help me get my revenge


----------



## Major Strombardt (Feb 22, 2009)

Know your enemy...ie do your homework next time!!!


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

haha, your Tau brother is in for a suprise and serves him right too! and instead of having so many Gun infantry footsloggers, get some Sword brethren!! Sword Bretheren Assualt marines can do wonders against Tau.


----------



## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

The reason i dont have sword brethren is the points cost, the point here is a high volume of infantry (3/5 of the infantry units are geared for assault) since he doesnt have to much in the way of anti infantry. Plus marines destroy tau in combat, they really dont have to be specialist assault units


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Well, you're certainly onto something as far as your new list goes, but I'd drop one of the 10 man plasma/plasma Crusader squads in Pod for a unit of 5 Terminators with two assault cannons. For the big squads, swap out the flamers for meltaguns and the power weapons for power fists. To afford this, think about dropping a Bike or something, as they're not usually terribly great in Templar lists. You'll find it pretty easy to just roll over his army with the two huge Crusader squads that _love_ to get shot at.

Good luck. :good:


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Ruin his shit. Ruin it good.

Tau are shit in CC. remember that. Looks like you have a good list that should have him browning his pants once he sees it rolling over him.


----------



## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

I don't have one list that I use against everyone. Thats just dumb. If I'm going against horde armries I have a list for that. If I'm going against mech armies I got a list for that. No commander has the same battle plan for every army. Being military you should know that.

I must admit I know nothing of Black Templars, but I don't think your squads need to be that big.

Having been a Tau player and having beaten Tau players with my other armies I can tell you this. Put all your troops in rhinos and razorbacks. Get some assault Marines too. Drop pods are a great idea too. What you need to do is assualt his broadsides and crisis suits. Pop his devilfish (easier said then done) and kill the firewarriors inside and you win. Rhinos are great cause you can get 10 guys in them and move 12 inches every round. More importantly they are not expensive, you can field a lot of them, and his broadside teams can only focus on one rhino per team each turn. Put smoke launchers on them and use that smoke round 1. By round 3 you should be deploying your Marines in his lines, so your rhinos don't have to last that long. Pop his devilfish with heavy weapons and assault the FW as they pop out. The crisis suits can't hold up to a full squad of Marines in melee.

A LR is a great target for his Broadsides. 3 TL Str 10, AP1 shots from each team, each turn. That is enough to destroy 500 points of your army and delay whatever units you had in them for another turn or two. Broadside teams are great against big targets like LR, preds, and dreads. They suck against hoard armies (or as much of a horde as you can get with SM). Present them with a lot of targets in different units and they will not be very effective. Crisis suits will have a tough time popping rhinos until they get close and by then it will be too late.


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

A suggestion from a guy who is no expert but, what about a multi melta attack bike instead. Zip up and knock out a devilfish and chew on the soft center. Would keep some of his firewarriors out of it for a little longer. I have not had much to do with bt or generic marines but can you fire a mm on an attack bike and charge into cc? That would take out one of his few armoured sections. Especially if you hit the fish with the pathfinders.

The change in list will surely make him think real hard about over specialising. I think the pods will be his undoing.


----------



## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

To Davespill:

I understand that you like to specialize ur list and optimize urself for winning, but remember sometimes you wont know ahead of time what exactly it is you will be facing, I.E. if you ever went into a tournament you have to go with one army list... plus its just a bit more friendly ya know?

thank you all for your comments

Katie Drake- I like the idea of terminators and was thinking of DSing them and giving both chaplains teleport homers and giving the termies tank hunters with assault cannons, that would be more than enough to pop the small amount of armor he had.. maybe i'll drop one shooting squad and a drop pod, could drop a neo or two to bring in the spare points

Shantitus- the reason the bike has a heavy bolter is because the attack bike is just a throw away wound, he doesnt have much armor in his list so i'm not terribly worried about overspeicializing against anti-armor


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

You should have a pretty easy time running him over if he barely uses any vehicles. Templars specialize in beating the snot out of infantry units. I imagine he'll be basically crushed by the bottom of turn 5.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

davespil said:


> I don't have one list that I use against everyone. Thats just dumb. If I'm going against horde armries I have a list for that. If I'm going against mech armies I got a list for that. No commander has the same battle plan for every army. Being military you should know that.


Its not dumb, its a better way of playing the game. If you happen to know your friend has lots of tanks and like to play them and you make a list to counter it then you really should win pretty much every game... if you know someone is running a hoard then again, your counter list should win every time.
This can also bite you in the ass- some of the last games of WFB I've played have been my HE against dwarves... both times I've just taken a generic lists with 1-2 small alterations (not specifically to make me better against dwarves, just better in general), while the dwarves have tailored their list to beat me. Unfortunately for the enemy I have a couple of lists I play (and will play either against any opposition) and each time the enemy tailored they guessed wrong... so they had masses of anti-magic against a zero magic list and lots of short ranged guns and no magic defence against my long range shooting/magic army
- if you try to tailor to 1 type of enemy and you guess wrong you are screwed.

On the flip side- if you try to build a 'tournament' style list where you are rounded enough to deal with all enemies then you can deal with whatever you face each game... it takes more skill in making the list and isnt the auto-win button that a well written counter list is but it can be more rewarding.
It also gives more of a feel to your army... since if you use 1 or 2 lists then "your army" is pretty much set, so in your mind the same force can go from battle to battle in their own little story... while if you tailor for every game it can get a little stagnant (and if you lose with a tailore list you know you got trounced).


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

a bud of mine plays BT and he uses alot of assault marines, DS sword bretheren termies, Drop pod dreads and emperors champ w/ grimaldus and a marshal. his guys kill me fast when in close quarters.


----------



## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

Lets hope so katie lol, so i totally forgot to add in the points for the drop pods on my crusader squads, meaning the list took quite a hit this is it now

HQ

Emperors Champion (Accept any challenge no matter the odds) 140 pts

Reclusiarch (Teleport Homer, Bolt Pistol, 3 Cenobyte servitors w/CCW’s) 131 pts	

Reclusiarch (Teleport Homer, Bolt Pistol, 3 Cenobyte servitors w/CCW’s) 131 pts	

Troops

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Weapon, Flamer) 7 Neophytes (Close Combat) 246 pts

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Weapon, Flamer) 6 Neophytes (Close Combat) 236 pts

10 Marines (Close Combat Setup, Power Fist, Melta) Drop Pod 225 pts

8 Marines (6 Bolters, 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Plasma Gun) Drop Pod 194 pts

Elites

Terminators (3 Storm Bolters, 2 Assault cannons, Tank Hunters) 255 pts

Fast Attack

5 Initiate Bikers (3 power weapons, 2 Bolt Pistols, All CCW’s) 190 pts

I dropped the chaplains terminator honors, figured the extra attack prolly wont be needed as much since i'm fighting the tau and gave them both teleport homers, i figure when the termies come in to DS the chaplain with the best position will be used as the DS point pretty obvious there

The crusader squads had to take a hit, of this i'm a little concerned, with seperation of commanders this makes each squad only 21 models strong, of which i dont want to lose the cenobyte servitors for their added movement bonus.. feeling as though these squads might just not be big enough

The dreaded terminators are in here now, these will be good, gives me a little more tank hunting ability against those devilfish

as for the bikes, most ppl dont know but black templar bikes do get 2 attacks base in close combat, they dont have a weapon profile and they are Initiates, the standard initiate is armed with a BP and CCW its a bit of an overlooked thing, and i checked it up on the rules forum here, seems legitimate... but the attack bike is also gone now, meaning this unit only has 2 throw away wounds, gonna have to do what i can to turbo boos them out of los and force him to shoot at the big crusader squads


----------



## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Well, you're certainly onto something as far as your new list goes, but I'd drop one of the 10 man plasma/plasma Crusader squads in Pod for a unit of 5 Terminators with two assault cannons. For the big squads, swap out the flamers for meltaguns and the power weapons for power fists. To afford this, think about dropping a Bike or something, as they're not usually terribly great in Templar lists. You'll find it pretty easy to just roll over his army with the two huge Crusader squads that _love_ to get shot at.
> 
> Good luck. :good:


Seconded. Black Templars are the only Marine army that can still get 2 Assault Cannons in a 5 man Terminator squad. DS those on one of his flanks and watch his face drop. He will have to choose between Terminators and Crusader squads.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Note also: Teleport homers do NOT help Drop pods when they come in. use them for your termies instead.


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

We will need a battle report on this one when it goes down. Should be a good read.


----------



## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Looking at that list, footies is definitely the best way to go. 9 Broadside suits? That's a clear case of counterbuild, no one takes that many rail suits. No Hammerheads means he's going to have a hell of a tough time killing your men with no railgun blast or burst cannons.

I would almost throw some initiates in there to screen the front line, they're cheaper right? Use them for cover saves on your actual power armored units so his railguns become nearly useless unless he wants to shoot your screen.



I don't suspect any of my friends against building against me, but I like to run something a little (or a lot different) every time just to mix it up. Unfortunately my list is a lot of heavy anti-tank and one of my main opponents doesn't even run tanks :/


----------



## marcch (Apr 1, 2008)

My main army is Tau and I use a similar list when going against MEQs. His list is definately ant-MEQ so his main weapon load out is low volume high AP. Oversaturate his target choices (use of screening units, volume, etc...) and get into CC. Tau cannot hold up in CC for long. His high strength weapons will be able to crack open your transports easily so run them fast or behind cover as much as possible. Blow away the shield drones as quickly as possible to eliminate invunerable saves. Good luck!


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The "Tailor List" vs "All Comers" is a debate that has been raging for well over 10 years. As with all debates there are people at either extreme as well as people in the middle.

I'm stood in the middle. I believe in building a solid, well rounded army, but don't have any problems modifying it -slightly- if I know what I'm facing, for example taking a few flamers over melta guns or vice versa.

Completely tailoring your list makes for boring games in my mind, imagine playing an RTS where you can see exactly everything that your opponent is doing... takes away a lot of the fun.

New list looks solid though!


----------



## bakoren (Nov 16, 2009)

As for the arguement I try to build well rounded, with squads set for popping almost anything.

My HT is usually my anti-Unique/Monstrous and I have been testing a hyper steriod Flyrent and the swarmlord. I still can't choose!


----------



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

For the arguement, I will generally only tailor my list if I know the person well like I am playing my cousin or my good friend. We both do it and have a fun game. I generally like to build well round list mainly because I will just show up at the store when I get a chance so I never know what I will be facing. I might make small adjustments to my list depending on the army I'm facing but usually I just stick to what I got. 

The evil side of me so likes what about to happen I can't stop smiling. My black templar models cheer for your swift revenge.


----------



## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

Hey thanks for the posts everyone! I'm going to try to push the game for tonight, I just finished painting the biker unit for this game too (well just the 3 I bought but hey its a start) i will be sure to post a battle report, hopefully things go my way here!


----------



## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Sethis said:


> The "Tailor List" vs "All Comers" is a debate that has been raging for well over 10 years. As with all debates there are people at either extreme as well as people in the middle.
> 
> I'm stood in the middle. I believe in building a solid, well rounded army, but don't have any problems modifying it -slightly- if I know what I'm facing, for example taking a few flamers over melta guns or vice versa.
> 
> Completely tailoring your list makes for boring games in my mind, imagine playing an RTS where you can see exactly everything that your opponent is doing... takes away a lot of the fun.


I disapprove heartily of tailoring lists specifically to beat one person excepting special circumstances, like once I beat a guy I play with regularly who was helping me test a tourney list. He wanted a rematch and I encouraged him to gear up to kick my butt to show me where I was weak. He came back with pretty much nothing but guardsmen clumped together with assault screens out front and 0 anti-tank and lasgunned me off the board. I threw some killa kans into my list as a response and won the tourney and the kans played a pivotal role in doing so.

Personally I only believe in creating all-comers lists. I even frown upon the minor tailoring Sethis discusses, though not as much. For shooty armies a little tailoring gives them a good boost whereas I can't really tailor my Orks much without changing what units I take. Basically it comes down to my preference for tournament-style matches where a single list will have to be able to adapt to multiple opponents and styles, and I find it's much more fun to conceptualize and play for me and makes me better when I actually do tournaments.

One of the things I liked about playing over Vassal the most was being completely ignorant of what your opponent was running because you both posted lists that were revealed simultaneously. Even when you know someone's username they can still field a completely different army and style that day because they aren't limited by models. IRL it's harder to get that anonymity as people at my FLGS know I'm only playing my Orks nowadays, but the most I'll see generally is some minor upgrade weapon swaps. I also like switching up how I run my army, what units I take, and the style I build it around, just to keep people guessing. Typically people show up with pre-printed lists anyway, which is what I do to show that I built it at home before even knowing who was going to show up.

I do admit that if a particular list is crushing my opponents, I like the challenge of being tailored against, just to show that I can make a list that can truly take on all comers.


----------



## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Hmmm well i used to play tau and iv played against templars alot...

You need to simply Throw your tacticals in rhino's to protect them and move at max speed well popping smoke first round, The second Piece of advice i have for you is to go back to having a landraider, let him take all anti-armor units you can simply use them as a direction throw a terminator squad in it and it will be his nightmare!


----------



## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

I also only build take all comers lists. I find I get a lot of enjoyment out of spending hours figuring out how to remove any potential weaknesses in my lists and coming up with the best balance I can. In my mind, tailoring lists to destroy a specific army that you know you will be playing next is along the lines of taking more points than your opponent to get the upper hand, or bringing a list with "mistakes" on it that allow you to win, or winning by using rules that don't exist against an opponent that doesn't know better. The games are suppossed to start out equal, and the outcome should depend on who is the better general. Yes there certain armies, that when both are played with balanced lists, won't quite be equal. But superior generalship can accomplish amazing things in this game. 

If you take actions to throw games out of balance in your favour before the game even starts, whats the point of playing at all?


To the OP...kick his ass and then post a battle report for us =)


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, Im an all-comers player too... about the most I ever did as far as tailoring was to swap out melta when playing nids but even then i have gone into games against nids with lots of melta and very few flamers... just makes it more fun.


----------



## Grinnsira (Jan 5, 2010)

Attack bikes are relentless so can move 12" and fire both the TL bolters and the MM, and still charge


----------



## wargamereric (Jan 20, 2010)

Well done Marine, infiltrating enemy HQ and aquiring such valuable data. Such effort deserves a purity seal!

...lol no but seriously, just glue tau body parts on your bases and you'll crush him for sure. Demoralize the enemy!


----------

