# using chaos without worshipping it



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Are their any factions that support the use of warp-craft and magic without the worship of the 4 gods of Chaos.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Well that's kind of the radicals dream to utilise the warp and not fall to Chaos, but do you just genrally mean magic, like the eldar use that, or more dangerous Chaos based magic?


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Night Lords & Iron Warriors chaos legions don't worship the chaos pantheon as a rule but certianly make use of chaotic energies...

Technically ALL psykers are using powers from the warp & most do not worship chaos

The imperium nagivates through the warp & do not worship chaos


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

clever handle said:


> Night Lords & Iron Warriors chaos legions don't worship the chaos pantheon as a rule but certianly make use of chaotic energies...
> 
> Technically ALL psykers are using powers from the warp & most do not worship chaos
> 
> The imperium nagivates through the warp & do not worship chaos


We're lead to believe that sorcery is chaos specific, and that the energies and psychic abilities typical psykers, like the eldar and imperial librarians, use are at least slightly different.


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## SHarrington (Jan 7, 2010)

I know this will sound silly at first, but SOME Thousand Sons do not worship Tzeentch or any of the Chaos powers for that matter. Those exiled by Magnus because of Ahriman. Ahriman would make a good commander for such an army as the fluff is very clear that he is out to master Chaos, not be mastered by it.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

This describes exactly the path of the radical inquisitor.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

From what I've read the Alpha Legion sides with chaos without worshiping the chaos gods. The HH novel Legion made it pretty obvious they weren't interested in worshiping chaos at all, but were picking that side for the sake of humanity. I suppose that wouldn't stop them from making use of some of the benefits of chaos though.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GabrialSagan said:


> Are their any factions that support the use of warp-craft and magic without the worship of the 4 gods of Chaos.


yes the entire imperium of man is basically one of those.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

If your looking an Imperial specific...

Relictors SM chapter... uses Chaos Wpns and artifacts to fight Chaos.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't understand how anybody can "use" Chaos without being wholly corrupted by it and falling to its worship.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> I don't understand how anybody can "use" Chaos without being wholly corrupted by it and falling to its worship.


Chaos _is_ the Warp, and the Warp _is_ Chaos. The two are indivisible.

In this regard the vast majority of factions/races in the 40k galaxy utilise Chaos for their own benefit (eg. Warp Travel), and most without worshipping the Chaos Gods, or at least not consciously.



Zaden said:


> From what I've read the Alpha Legion sides with chaos without worshiping the chaos gods. The HH novel Legion made it pretty obvious they weren't interested in worshiping chaos at all, but were picking that side for the sake of humanity. I suppose that wouldn't stop them from making use of some of the benefits of chaos though.


For a start thats an assumption, and secondly that was over 10,000 years ago - the Alpha Legion could have easily fallen into Chaos worship over that time span.


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> For a start thats an assumption, and secondly that was over 10,000 years ago - the Alpha Legion could have easily fallen into Chaos worship over that time span.


That would make this a..counter assumption then?


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

As someone mentioned before the Night Lords do not worship any particular chaos gods but rather consider them a 'tool to be used' against their real enemy, the imperium. In fact in Lord of the night the night lord Zso Sahaal refers on several occassions to chaos as simply 'the enemy of my enemy' not as helping chaos directly. Not saying that a NL couldn't fall to chaos, in fact the way a night lord hunts and kills his prey would make Khorne a very happy boy indeed and I wonder in their pursuit of 'perfect fear' the NL's are not inadvertently worshiping Khorne through mindless bloodshed and slaughter... But that's a discussion for another time.

The Iron Warriors also use chaos as a tool but there is evidence to suggest individual marines (and the marines serving under them) have chosen a path of chaos and followed it, either willing or unwilling. It's mentioned in Storm of iron that the IW marine Kroeger was treading the path of khorne and would fall to the blood gods call sooner or later. 

Alpha legion? Well I'm yet to see much substantial post heresy fluff on them yet. Till then I'll reserve my judgement.

So yes, some legions try to not worship chaos but use them as a tool... But in the end o think by simply thinking you can control or 'use' chaos is the first step in being a tool OF chaos... 

Food for thought?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zaden said:


> That would make this a..counter assumption then?


Of course  I was just illustrating that what you put forward was an assumption!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Eisenhorn, the inquisitor, used a Chaos Daemon to his own benefit a couple of times, actually. Although a few characters debated whether or not he became a heretic, I firmly believe that author intended us to believe not.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> For a start thats an assumption, and secondly that was over 10,000 years ago - the Alpha Legion could have easily fallen into Chaos worship over that time span.


Precisely. The upcoming BL novel _The Hunt for Voldorius_ seems to support the notion that at least some of the Alpha Legion is truely chaotic, now. The blurb on Amazon says: "A warleader of the renegade Alpha Legion, the demon prince Kernax Voldrius..."

I have yet to meet a demon prince that doesn't worship chaos. (of course, I have yet to meet an actual demon prince, but that's beside the point...)



Brother Subtle said:


> As someone mentioned before the Night Lords do not worship any particular chaos gods but rather consider them a 'tool to be used' against their real enemy, the imperium. In fact in Lord of the night the night lord Zso Sahaal refers on several occassions to chaos as simply 'the enemy of my enemy' not as helping chaos directly. Not saying that a NL couldn't fall to chaos, in fact the way a night lord hunts and kills his prey would make Khorne a very happy boy indeed and I wonder in their pursuit of 'perfect fear' the NL's are not inadvertently worshiping Khorne through mindless bloodshed and slaughter... But that's a discussion for another time.
> 
> The Iron Warriors also use chaos as a tool but there is evidence to suggest individual marines (and the marines serving under them) have chosen a path of chaos and followed it, either willing or unwilling. It's mentioned in Storm of iron that the IW marine Kroeger was treading the path of khorne and would fall to the blood gods call sooner or later.


Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, but only that it does.

I have to say, though, that the Emperor's Children, had they not fought the Laer, would have made ideal converts to Khorne as well...

The Night Lords: well, in _Lord of the Night,_


Talonmaster Zso Sahaal does indeed see the dangers of the trap of chaos, if a bit too late. One must remember, he is absolutely horrified by the chaotic changes that have run rampant over the Night Lords since the Heresy when he sees them in person...


Ah well, I suppose that we'll have to wait for _Soul Hunter_ to truly establish whether or not the Night Lords have fallen--and if so, as we can suspect, how far.

Sadly enough, I have not read _Storm of Iron_, despite wanting to very much, so I can't testify on it as to whether or not the Iron Warriors are so far corrupt. Neither have I read the Ultramarine books, so I can't compare Honsou from there either. Perturabo's demonhood is a rather telling indicator, though, at least in my mind.



hailene said:


> Eisenhorn, the inquisitor, used a Chaos Daemon to his own benefit a couple of times, actually. Although a few characters debated whether or not he became a heretic, I firmly believe that author intended us to believe not.


Aha--but Abnett has stated that he's planning to write a third series regarding his Inquisitor characters. More specifically, a trilogy that Eisenhorn AGAINST Ravenor (through the eyes of Alizebeth Bequin). So even the good Gregor is not safe from the lure of Chaos...or at least, the xenophile Ravenor begins to see him as irrevocably corrupt.

But then again, I'm leaping to a certain island from _The Phantom Tollbooth_...Conclusions.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Their is also the exorcist marines who have each been possessed by a chaos daemon and then fight it off and free themselves. This makes them far more effective at fighting daemons. So I guess that counts as using chaos without worshiping it.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Oh, and somebody erroneously mentioned that Ahriman did not labor in service to Tzeentch. This is incorrect--after the 13th Black Crusade, Ahriman was noted to have achieved some major, ineffable goal for the Puppet Master, and to have come back into His good graces. So his separate cabal do worship Tzeentch as well...


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Sadly enough, I have not read _Storm of Iron_, despite wanting to very much, so I can't testify on it as to whether or not the Iron Warriors are so far corrupt.


The Iron Warriors perform voluntary daemonic possession, engage the services of the Dark Mechanicus, utilize Chaos artifacts and sorcery, and hew to the same generally self-serving immorality that any Chaos worshipper does. They follow Warsmiths, each of whom has a unique tactical doctrine and organization informed by visions from the warp, and some of whom are Chaos Champions. Many Iron Warriors are direct and explicit followers of one of the Chaos Gods. And all of them worship Perturabo, an obvious Chaos power, as their savior. They are so corrupt that I think it's meaningless to say they "use but don't worship" Chaos. They aren't zealots like the Word Bearers, but ask yourself this: if they are not now Chaos worshippers, what would they be doing differently if they _were_?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Precisely. The upcoming BL novel _The Hunt for Voldorius_ seems to support the notion that at least some of the Alpha Legion is truely chaotic, now. The blurb on Amazon says: "A warleader of the renegade Alpha Legion, the demon prince Kernax Voldrius..."


Indeed, its guaranteed that at least _some_ Alpha Marines have fallen to Chaos.



Mossy Toes said:


> Oh, and somebody erroneously mentioned that Ahriman did not labor in service to Tzeentch. This is incorrect--after the 13th Black Crusade, Ahriman was noted to have achieved some major, ineffable goal for the Puppet Master, and to have come back into His good graces. So his separate cabal do worship Tzeentch as well...


The Thousand Sons'/Tzeentch relationship is a tricky one. We know that Magnus (and Ahriman) realises that Tzeentch has his 'fingers in all the pies' so to speak, that he is the 'puppet master' and the Architect of Fate, and that his plots and schemes effect all.

But as to whether Magnus/Ahriman worships Tzeentch and has any sense of deformed loyalty to him is unknown. We know Magnus turned to Tzeentch in order to save himself and the remnants of his legion, and ultimately ended up in the Eye of Terror. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Thousand Sons worship Tzeentch.

Ahriman for example was exiled and given the quest (in some sources) by Magnus to gain knowledge of Tzeentch, to understand the god, and thus gain immense power. All the sources also say that if Ahriman successfully gained entrence to the Black Library he would have become a god in his own right.

I mean its obvious that the Thousand Sons are Tzeentch's lackeys (but then arguably so is everyone!), but they seem to be trying to break free from his grasp, to understand his power and possibly to break free from his grasp. Also remember that the Thousand Sons always believed that they were the masters of the warp, not the warp masters of them. They could still hold this belief.

But then again they may completley accept that Tzeentch is the top dog, and everything is just part of his infinite schemes, and trying to break his grasp, or usurp him to some degree is ultimately futile. Who knows.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed, its guaranteed that at least _some_ Alpha Marines have fallen to Chaos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it would be hard to become a daemon primarch and not worship the god 

I think Magnus does worship Tzeentch as he has seen the power of Tzeentch and how he is always pulling the strings. It would be hard to resist Tzeentch when you have glimpsed his power.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> after the 13th Black Crusade, Ahriman was noted to have achieved some major, ineffable goal for the Puppet Master, and to have come back into His good graces. So his separate cabal do worship Tzeentch as well...


It was into Magnus' good graces Ahriman returned, not into Tzeentchs.



Yog-Sothoth said:


> I think it would be hard to become a daemon primarch and not worship the god


I disagree, especially regarding Tzeentch. Magnus becoming a Daemon Prince was merely part of another one of Tzeentch's infinite and varied schemes, it didn't necessary require acceptance or worship of Tzeentch. 

Its implied that Magnus accepted his part in Tzeentch's schemes when he escaped Prospero, but that doesn't mean he worships Tzeentch, for the time being he may accept his part in the infinite schemes of Tzeentch but that doesn't prevent him from trying to escape the influence and manipulation of the Lord of Change. I still see Magnus as thinking it possible to master Chaos.

On a side note becoming a Daemon Prince plausably doesn't even require the consent of the individual.



Yog-Sothoth said:


> I think Magnus does worship Tzeentch as he has seen the power of Tzeentch and how he is always pulling the strings. It would be hard to resist Tzeentch when you have glimpsed his power.


Unless of course he clings to his initial belief that he is able to master the warp. He knows that currently Tzeentch is the string-puller, but I see him as trying to free himself from Tzeentch's schemes. Ahriman's exile in a sense supports this because Ahriman was tasked with understanding Tzeentch and the Warp, and the 13th Black Crusade background specifically stated that if Ahriman was able to gain access to the Black Library he would become a god in his own right.

Of course this is largely just my interpretation though


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On a side note becoming a Daemon Prince plausably doesn't even require the consent of the individual.


I disagree. Abaddon has turned down daemonhood for quite a while now, hasn't he?

Though it's still a possibility that a Chaos God might force daemonhood on somebody, rather than simply offering it, rather rendering my example moot...


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

I thought that it did require the ultimate consent of the Champion to ascend. Abaddon for example, has refused to become a Daemon Prince numerous times. I suppose however, there's nothing to stop the Gods from forcing someone to become a Daemon Prince. Never heard of it happenning but if anyone can enlighten me...?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> I disagree. Abaddon has turned down daemonhood for quite a while now, hasn't he?
> 
> Though it's still a possibility that a Chaos God might force daemonhood on somebody, rather than simply offering it, rather rendering my example moot...


Nowhere does it say specifically say that Abaddon has refused Daemonhood.

The Chaos Marines Codex (Under the Chaos Spawn entry if I remember correctly) gives examples of mutations and boons given by the Chaos Gods, and how they are percieved by the Warp Powers. 

A mere mortal could not simply refuse to be elevated to the ranks of Daemonhood, if they have drawn the gaze of the gods they will either end up achieving Spawndom or Daemonhood. Abaddon (and possibly Horus) is the exception, he has the blessings of the gods and bears the mark of Chaos Ascendent, perhaps its by the will of the gods that he isn't a Daemon Prince, but I doubt its specifically by his own choice.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> I disagree. Abaddon has turned down daemonhood for quite a while now, hasn't he?
> 
> Though it's still a possibility that a Chaos God might force daemonhood on somebody, rather than simply offering it, rather rendering my example moot...



I think it's because if Abbadon was a Daemon Prince he couldn't move as freely out of the warp as he can when he's mortal.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It was into Magnus' good graces Ahriman returned, not into Tzeentchs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point. Tzeentch could of just elevated Magnus to have better control over him. However, wouldn't Magnus have better sense then to, after glimpsing the full power of the warp, arrogantly assume he could control it in any shape or form? I thought he was more sensible than that.


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## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Nowhere does it say specifically say that Abaddon has refused Daemonhood.


Put it this way, I definately read it somewhere- something to do about the fact that if he were to be elevated to Daemonhood, he would be unable to continue his crusade against the Imperium properly.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Pg 22 of the previous edition of the CSM codex is a heretic's ruminations on the reasoning behind Abaddon's not having become a daemon prince. Also, the 3rd edition CSM codex had another, more persuasive piece saying that Abaddon had been offered daemonhood--which I hesitate to point out, as I can't find my battered old 3rd E codex.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I havn't got any of my source material with my where I currently am (bar my Heresy Novels) but is this the quote you are referring to:

"Twelve times has the Despoiler held the galaxy within his grasp, and each time he had but to claim what was his for the taking. I am now sure there exists some greater scheme, some unfathomable logic driving Abaddon in his endeavors. I ask myself, 'Why has he not claimed the gifts of the ruinous powers must certainly have proffered him? Why does he still walk amongst mortals when surely the path of elevation to daemonhood has been set before him twelve times and more?' The one conclusion I can draw is that the Despoiler's motives lie not with the abstract, spiritual power of the Empyrean: more, they lie with the mundane, with physical, earthly power. Abbadon is driven by hatred and bitterness, to such an extent that he will not rest until he sees righted the wrong he perceives commited against him and his kind ten millenia past by our lord Emperor. Perhapsafter his 13th Black Crusade he will consider his mission complete, and only then will he assume the mantle of Daemomhood , over the very ashes of the Imperium."

If so, well this is still just one guys speculation, and does not offer any conclusive evidence.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its implied that Magnus accepted his part in Tzeentch's schemes when he escaped Prospero, but that doesn't mean he worships Tzeentch, for the time being he may accept his part in the infinite schemes of Tzeentch but that doesn't prevent him from trying to escape the influence and manipulation of the Lord of Change.


How would he accomplish it? A mortal, even one that is a mighty Chaos Champion (see _Daemon World_), can abandon Chaos and go his own way, but daemonic ascension is a one-way street.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> How would he accomplish it? A mortal, even one that is a mighty Chaos Champion (see _Daemon World_), can abandon Chaos and go his own way, but daemonic ascension is a one-way street.


I wasn't suggesting anyway he could accomplish it, or even if it would be possible. I speculated only that he wished it.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> ...is a heretic's ruminations on the reasoning behind Abaddon's not having become a daemon prince.


I didn't say that it was conclusive. If memory serves, however, the 3rd Edition quote on the same thing was by a CSM who had spoken to Abaddon on the subject. Gah, damn. I wish that I could find it.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> Are their any factions that support the use of warp-craft and magic without the worship of the 4 gods of Chaos.


Yes, all of them (except for the Necrons).


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