# Origins of the Chaos Gods - First Heretic Spoilers



## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Hiya,

As the title says, this thread will contain spoilers from The First Heretic. You have been warned!


Now, I want to draw your attention to page 263. Here the Word Bearers have reached Cadia, at the edge of the Eye of Terror. Ingethel has just ascended in the ritual. There is one thing she says that caught my eye:



> *"You are not the first Colchisians to reach this world. Khaane. Tezen. Slanat. Narag. All ventured here, millennia ago, guided by visions of angels."*


I doubt you have missed the similarities between the names; Khorne = Khaane, Tzeentch = Tezen, and so on. So does this mean that the Chaos Gods were originally mortals? Could it mean the creation of a Chaos God comes about when there is sufficient emotion fuelling the apotheosis of a mortal being? Perhaps the Eldar didn't create Slaanesh, but rather provided the raw energy needed for Slanat's ascension? 

If there was enough of another emotion (maybe faith/devotion), perhaps Lorgar could become Lorgeth, fifth Chaos God? Or maybe even the Emperor could?!

What do you think?


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Had forgotten about such a thing. Understandably confusing...I didn't know what to make of it either for a moment. So I looked it up.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?235724-The-First-Heretic/page8

Aaron Dembski Bowden (Dead.Blue.Clown) calls it a legend/parable that doesn't make sense. He wrote it, so I guess he ought to know. Compares it to mythology like the Odyssey.

True enough, it doesn't really mesh with established background. The gods also go by many names and forms. Tzeentch for example is worshipped also as Tchar among other names while Slaanesh has this said about him:



> The name of Slaanesh derives from his Dark Tongue name of "Slaaneth"[1], from which also derives the other names he is known by. Slaanesh is known as the Loesh the Serpent to the Tokmar of the Eastern Steppes and as Shornaal the Prideful to the Skaeling of Norsca, while in the more civilised lands of the south he is known as the Dark Prince of Chaos, Prince of Excess or Prince of Pleasure.


Most of these names probably have confusing mythologies about them in these communities.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

I suppose I could point, in a very futile manner, towards the possibility of Dead Blue Clown being an imposter, but I doubt the likelihood of that. Shame; could have been very interesting indeed.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I suppose I could point, in a very futile manner, towards the possibility of Dead Blue Clown being an imposter, but I doubt the likelihood of that. Shame; could have been very interesting indeed.


I think he uses the same moniker here (Edit:yes, he does) though my memory might fail me on that. I do know he posts on forums every now and again and has repeatedly had to clarify his own writings.

I don't really think the yarn being inaccurate makes it uninteresting though. I coincidentally had thought about making a list for myself of the different aliases of the gods (and listing minor gods etc. of which there are a few), but had forgotten about that bit. Thanks for reminding me. :biggrin:


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## TyphoidLmJ (May 20, 2012)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> If there was enough of another emotion (maybe faith/devotion), perhaps Lorgar could become Lorgeth, fifth Chaos God? Or maybe even the Emperor could?!
> 
> What do you think?


How about the end of "The long dark tea-time of the soul", when Dirk Gently's unopened fridge creates the ultra-powerful god of procrastination and guilt?:laugh:

Seriously though, I think you got something there. Especially about the Emperor. In a universe(the warp) where thoughts become reality, how the warped faith of the Imperial Cult has not already done this is a mystery to me.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

TyphoidLmJ said:


> How about the end of "The long dark tea-time of the soul", when Dirk Gently's unopened fridge creates the ultra-powerful god of procrastination and guilt?:laugh:
> 
> Seriously though, I think you got something there. Especially about the Emperor. In a universe(the warp) where thoughts become reality, how the warped faith of the Imperial Cult has not already done this is a mystery to me.


Brilliant...I genuinely should get myself to read Douglas Adams. I have however procrastinated and feel guilty about it. :biggrin:

As for the serious business, I agree. I think the reason for why it hasn't happened though is probably that the imperium doesn't know what it's doing. Maybe if they were more like the craftworld eldar... 
It's believed by some in the inquisition that the emperor might become this when he finally dies...and the rest try to keep them from pulling the plug on him.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Perhaps because the Eldar experienced emotions so much more than humans? That would account for them being unable to reincarnate the Emperor as the God of Zeal. After all, the original Empire of the Eldar may well have had as many Eldar as there are humans in the Imperium, or at least close enough that the balance of humans : Eldar doesn't overshadow the human emotion : Eldar emotion ratio.

Still, if the Inquisiton could engineer a genetic modification allowing for similar levels of intensity and spread it... they could make the Emperor a Chaos God.

Of course, that would mean the current Gods would go into overdrive; all of humanity's sorrow and rage would be similarly amplified. But wait!

Unless the Chaos Gods are significantly weaker now the Eldar are all gone (fewer beings with hyper-emotions) then the balance of Eldar Empire population VS human Imperium population is NOT equal. Here's what I mean:

Case 1. Eldar Empire has X gazillion Eldar, all with hyper-emotions. Chaos Gods very strong, Slaanesh born. Eldar wiped out (almost). Human Imperium has X gazillion humans, with normal emotions. Chaos Gods have substituted X gazillion hyper emotions for X gazillion normal ones. Chaos Gods are weaker.

Case 2. Eldar Empire has Y gazillion Eldar, where X>Y. Chaos Gods at regular strength. Eldar die. Imperium has X gazillion humans. Chaos God strength unchanged. More humans with weaker emotions roughly equivalent to fewer Eldar with hyper emotions.

Now, we can do two things. Firstly we can say Case 1 is true. That would account for the Gods total destruction of the Eldar Empire and half-destruction of the Imperium (at the moment). This isn't likely however as the Eldar Empire created a new god, which was a whole different ball-game to the regular Primordial Annihilation of a star-empire. We also don't know if Chaos eventually wins and the Imperium is destroyed just like the Eldar.

So Case 2 most be true. THEREFORE the force of emotion of the Imperium is roughly equivalent to the Eldar Empire. The Eldar Empire was capable of creating a Chaos God through mass-emotion, THEREFORE the Imperium is also capable of such creation.

So, by deduction, we have proved that the Imperium has the capability to create a new Chaos God. What sort of God, though? Which emotion would be strong enough? That's more speculative.


*tl;dr: I have proved the Imperium can create a Chaos God like the Eldar Empire did.*


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

I would add a few points myself. Beware...this is going to get ugly and very murky. Overthinking Ahoy! :grin:

Firstly on Khaane, Tezen, Slanat and Narag. There's no telling what is going on in the myth...is it about the gods as is clearly hinted? Or some other people? Also, if they were other people they could be Daemon princes...thus in a way direct extensions of their gods...and if one speaks to a "chaos god" in person or vision it can often be a greater daemon or similar acting on his master's behalf. In fact the "sentience" of the chaos gods is something akin to a hive mind of the mess they consist of.

Since it's sometimes said that Slaanesh has always existed, even though his birth is recorded (due to how linear time doesn't exist in the same way in the warp)...and the chaos gods are like "pseudo hive minds" in some ways...one could maybe cobble together a way in which Khaane, Tezen, Slanat and Narag are the gods...or at least extensions of them. Or it could just be a seeded myth, planted for later exploitation, much like in the Dune franchise.

Part of the reason I think the emperor could conceivably become something similar is that he is sometimes portrayed as having a similar mind/nature (though specifically what it consists of and whether it was always this way is unclear). The difference of course is that he is bound to a material body...at least for now, whereas the chaos gods seem to have merely "emerged" as a function and consequence of the warp itself. Some cults also view the chaos gods as merely aspects of a single chaotic entity. In some murky way this could be true.

I would bring up Ahzek Ahriman also, who is on a (doomed IMO) quest to outdo Tzeentch and become a chaos god, by getting into the black library of the eldar (presumably by forcing the BL authors at gunpoint to write him a satisfying ending ). He seems determined it might work...could it? I don't know.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Well the Emperor isn't truly bound to a mortal body; his psychic will is enforced throughout the universe. His mind is fuelled by sacrifice to make the Astronomicon; so powerful that even the Warp bends to it.

So in a really, really weird way, the Emperor already is a Chaos God... his power is anything but Chaotic, though. He brings order to chaos.

Also, the Emperor was supposedly created by the unity of loads of super-psychic Terran shamans; similar to psychic-echoes of emotions in the Warp...? And if the Emperor couldn't access the Warp, how did he ask the Chaos Gods how to make the Primarchs?


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Well the Emperor isn't truly bound to a mortal body; his psychic will is enforced throughout the universe. His mind is fuelled by sacrifice to make the Astronomicon; so powerful that even the Warp bends to it.
> 
> So in a really, really weird way, the Emperor already is a Chaos God... his power is anything but Chaotic, though. He brings order to chaos.
> 
> Also, the Emperor was supposedly created by the unity of loads of super-psychic Terran shamans; similar to psychic-echoes of emotions in the Warp...? And if the Emperor couldn't access the Warp, how did he ask the Chaos Gods how to make the Primarchs?


Yes, I was referring to the shamans of old fluff and a scene I've read about from the Draco trilogy. Also the first heretic gives off this sort of impression. 

It's also interesting what the gods have to say about him and his dealings with them. This could simply be a lie or their opinion about him using the warp IE their ways and resources. Or maybe they did literally strike a deal way back when? Was it just a way for him to buy time against them? What (if anything) happened between them and why will likely not be explained.

It's true that the emperor can reach throughout the empire with the astronomican, but no one knows what happens if you kill the body completely. Some want to try it and some would die to keep it from happening. The consequences could be anything: 
1) the Starchild entity 
2) more or less nothing, change of ritual maybe 
3) death, the imperium suddenly becoming permanently and irreparably f***ed. 
4) other 
5) comedy alternative answer 
etc.. 
Understandably, some are not so eager to test it.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

There is also the following possibility.

The Colchisians were always a very spiritual people. Maybe the pilgrims from Colchis were named in honour of the Gods. 

As has been mentioned the Gods have many varied names, its not beyond the realms of possibility that Pilgrims were named to honour them.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Eetion said:


> There is also the following possibility.
> 
> The Colchisians were always a very spiritual people. Maybe the pilgrims from Colchis were named in honour of the Gods.
> 
> As has been mentioned the Gods have many varied names, its not beyond the realms of possibility that Pilgrims were named to honour them.


Good point that I didn't really think about. Reminds me of how the big bad Tzeentchian Sorcerer Lord in warhammer online is named Tchar'zanek...Tchar being one of the many names of Tzeentch as I blurted out earlier.


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