# Primarch Tabletop Rules And Statlines!



## SGMAlice

Good afternoon,

With nothing better to do i have been sorting through my PC's and their contents for anything extraneous; When i came across a PDF file called 'The Horus Heresy: Emperor Edition'

Its contents are a campaign written for non tournament game play, set during the Heresy with rules for many many units we have not seen the likes of since our Rogue Trader days. Including rules for Sisters of Silence and the Custodes!

However it is the entries for the Primarchs that i post this thread.

Have a read through and see what you think. Are they Over Powered? Under Powered? or even simply Feasible or not?


Lion El'Jonson



THE PRIMARCH LION EL’JONSON 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Lion Sword (+2 Str master crafted Power weapon)
• Lion Helm (4+ Inv Save to any unit he joins)
• Master Crafted Bolt Pistol
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs

Dedicated Transport
May select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport.
(C:SM pg 135) If a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer is taken
these do not count as your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle
Special Rules
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Surprise Attack (C:SM pg 85)
• Redeploy d3 friendly units before Scout moves but after
Firestorm.
• Master Strategist (the army may add or minus 1 to reserve rolls)
• Favouritism (all Favoured units with 12” gain +1 Attack in
combat)
Legion Tactics
If you include Lion El’Jonson then all units in your army keep the
Combat Tactics special rule. If more than one character in your
army has the Legion Tactics special rule then you must choose
which version will apply



Jaghatai Khan



THE PRIMARCH JAGHATAI KHAN 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
10 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Moonfang (C:SM pg 94)
• Master Crafted Bolt Pistol
• The Horse Bow (counts as sniper rifle)
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs

Dedicated Transport
May select a Thunder Rhino or Land Raider of any type
as a dedicated transport. (C:SM pg 135) If a Land Raider
Crusader or Redeemer is taken these do not count
towards your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle.
Special Rules
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Master of the Hunt (C:SM pg 94)
• Eye of Vengeance (C:SM pg 88)

Options
• Jaghatai Khan may ride a Space Marine Bike or Jetbike for +50 points. He may not choose a Dedicated
transport if he takes this option. White Scar Primarch Honour Guard in an army led by Jaghatai Khan on a
bike or Jetbike may be given Space Marine Bikes or Jetbikes at +20 points each.
Legion Tactics
If you include Jaghatai Khan then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the
ability to Outflank. If you deploy a unit using the Outflank rule then their dedicated transport also gains the
ability to Outflank.



Leman Russ



THE PRIMARCH LEMAN RUSS 525 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
10 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Freki the Fierce 5 0 5 5 2 4 3 10 6+

Geri the Cunning 5 0 4 5 2 4 2 10 6+

Unit Composition
• 1 Leman Russ (Unique)
• 1 Freki the Fierce (Unique)
• 1 Geri the Cunning (Unique)
The unit count as four models
for transport purposes.

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Mjainar (+1 Str Master Crafted Power weapon)
• Master Crafted Bolt Pistol
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs
May Not Deep Strike (unless transported in a Drop
Pod)

Special Rules (Russ only)
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Furious Charge
• Counter Attack

Warrior‐Born
During the Assault phase, Russ gets a bonus to his Attacks equal to the number of models he killed in the previous Assault phase.

Dedicated Transport
May select a Thunder Rhino or Land Raider of any
type as a dedicated transport. (C:SM pg 135)
Freki & Geri: Armed with teeth and claws (Geri’s
attacks ignore armour saves). Freki and Geri have the
Furious Charge special rule. Leman Russ may still join
other units even though accompanied by his wolf
brothers.

Legion Tactics If you include Leman Russ then all
units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics
special rule for Counter Attack and Acute Senses
universal special rules. Any tactical squad members
may exchange their Bolt Guns for close combat
weapons.



Rogal Dorn



THE PRIMARCH ROGAL DORN 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Dorn’s Arrow (C:SM pg 90)
• Primarch Armour
• Fist of Dorn (C:SM pg 91)
• Storm Shield
• Master Crafted Power Weapon
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs

Special Rules
• Primarch
• Bolster Defences (C:SM pg 71)
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Honour or Death (C:SM pg 53)

Dedicated Transport
May select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport.
(C:SM pg 135) If a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer is taken
these do not count towards your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle.
Siege Master
All Imperial Fist vehicles may be give Siege Shields for +10 points
each.
Legion Tactics
If you include Rogal Dorn then all units in
your army exchange the Combat Tactics
special rule for the Stubborn universal
special rule. All Imperial Fist vehicles may
be give Siege Shields for +10 points each.
Imperial Fists have Preferred enemy
against Iron Warriors.



Sanguinius



THE PRIMARCH SANGUINIUS 500 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
10 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Jump Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Blood Sword (+1 Str Master Crafted Power weapon)
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs
• Wings (counts as Jump Pack)
• Master Crafted Bolt Pistol

Special Rules
• Primarch
• Surprise Attack (C:SM pg 85)
• Gift of Prescience (C: SM pg 86)
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)

Red Thirst
Sanguinius has the Furious Charge ability and the
Preferred Enemy special rule.

Black Rage
If Sanguinius is reduced to 1 Wound he gains +2 Str and
+1 Toughness.

Legion Tactics
If you include Sanguinius then all units in
your army keep the Combat Tactics
special rule. Additionally, Assault squads
may be taken as Troop choices. Primarch Honour Guard in an army led
by Sanguinius may be given Jump Packs
at +15 points each.



Ferrus Manus



THE PRIMARCH FERRUS MANUS 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Fireblade (each turn decide if it is wielded two
handed in which case it strikes as a Thunder
Hammer or one handed as a +1 Str Power
Weapon)
• Living Metal hands (his attacks ignore invulnerable
saves – cannot be combined with Fireblade)
• Servo Arm
• Master crafted Bolt Pistol
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs
Fated: Ferrus Manus loses the Eternal Warrior ability
in combat with Fulgrim.
Special Rules
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Furious Charge
Master‐crafter
D3 selected rapid fire, close combat or assault weapons in the army gain the master crafted rule

Dedicated Transport
May select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport. (C:SM pg 135) If a Land Raider Crusader or
Redeemer is taken these do not count as your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle

Legion Tactics
If you include Ferrus Manus then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the
Stubborn universal special rule and a 6+ Feel No Pain save. Additionally, an Iron Hands army may take a
Master of the Forge as an Elite choice.
Hatred: Ferrus Manus has Preferred Enemy against all units in the Armies of the Warmaster.
The Morlocks: Iron Hands Primarch Honour Guard, known as the Morlocks, always wear Terminator Armour.



Roboute Guilliman



THE PRIMARCH ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Master Crafted Power Fist or Power Weapon
• Master Crafted Bolt Pistol
• Master Crafted Bolt Gun
• Storm Shield
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs

Special Rules
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• God of War ‐ replaces Inspiring Presence (C:SM pg 84)
• Master Strategist (may add or minus 1 to reserve rolls)
• Special Issue Ammunition (C:SM pg 63)

Dedicated Transport
May select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated
transport. (C:SM pg 135) If a Land Raider Crusader or
Redeemer is taken these do not count as your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle.
Legion Tactics
If you include Roboute Guilliman then all units in your army
with the Combat Tactics special rule keep it and take great
comfort that it makes them the most flexible of all the
Astartes. They embody all that it means to be a space
marine. If more than one character (with the exception of a
brother Primarch) in your army has the Legion Tactics
special rule then Roboute‘s wise council over‐rules their
Legion tactic ability.



Vulkan He'Stan



THE PRIMARCH VULKAN 475 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 7 6 5 5 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Deathfire (Master crafted Power weapon. If it causes a wound it reduces
opponent to Initiative 1 for the next round of combat)
• Gauntlet of the Forge (C:SM pg 93)
• Kesare’s Mantle (C:SM pg 93)
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs
• Song of Entropy (Shooting attack. One use per battle. All enemy units in
line of sight take pinning test. Vulkan may not move or assault in the same
turn as using the Song)

Special Rules
• Primarch
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Vulkan’s Sigil (Counts as a Locator Beacon)

Master‐crafter
D3 selected rapid fire, close combat or assault weapons in the army gain the master crafted rule

Dedicated Transport
May select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport. (C:SM pg 135) If a Land
Raider Crusader or Redeemer is taken these do not count as your 0‐1 limit for each vehicle

Legion Tactics
If you include Vulkan then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule.
Instead all thunder hammers in your army will count as master crafted, and all flamer,
heavy flamers, melta guns and multi‐meltas count as twin‐linked.



Corax



THE PRIMARCH CORAX HQ 450 POINTS
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
9 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 1+

Unit Composition
• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type
• Infantry (Primarch)

Wargear
• Primarch Armour
• Frag Grenades and Melta Bombs
Either
• Deliverer (Master Crafted + 1 Str Power Weapon, Rending)
• Master Crafted Plasma Pistol
• Master Crafted Bolt Gun
• Scout (applies to squad he leads)
Or for +25 points:
• The Raven’s Talons (C:SM pg 92)
• Jump Pack
• Becomes Jump Infantry
• Furious Charge

Special Rules
• Primarch
• Hit and Run (applies to squad he leads)
• Rites of Battle (C:SM pg 85)
• Stealth (applies to squad he leads)
• See, But Remain Unseen (C:SM pg 92
applies to squad)

Survive Against the Odds
Should Corax be reduced to 1 Wound his Feel No Pain
save increases to 2+

Legion Tactics
If you include Corax then all units in your army
exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the Fleet
universal special rule.
Primarch Honour Guard in an army led by Corax with a
Jump Pack may also be given Jump Packs at +15 points
each.



Primarch rules are as follows:



> The Primarchs were the twenty genetically‐engineered "sons" of the Emperor. The Emperor used his own DNA in their creation, and they were designed to
> be far superior to the average human: larger, stronger, hardier, faster, and smarter. They were also incredibly charismatic, as their main role was to be
> generals and leaders of the Imperial military. They were created in a secret underground laboratory on Luna under tightest security. However, the forces of
> Chaos managed to spirit them away just prior to their maturation. These were scattered across the galaxy, beyond the Emperor's reach, and all of them
> landed on different worlds. The Emperor could sense that the Primarchs were alive, but was unable to reach them. The genetic material of each one of them
> was used to found a single Space Marine Legion, twenty in total. As the Emperor found them, he was generally pleased by their actions, and quickly gave
> them the leadership of their respective legion. Now that several of the Primarchs have turned from the Emperor it is the grim duty of these brothers to
> wage war and slay one another.
> 
> All models with the designation Primarch count as two models for transport purposes (except Sanguinius who count as three due to his size).
> Primarch’s benefit from the following special rules:
> Independent Character Deep Strike
> Eternal Warrior Fleet
> Relentless Acute Senses
> Invulnerable 4+ Save Feel No Pain
> 
> Majestic: Primarchs may be targeted by shooting even if they have joined a unit (unless he is leading a unit of Primarch Honour Guard).
> 
> Inspiring Presence: The Primarch and any allied Space Marine units within 12” of the Primarch are Fearless. In addition, all models in a unit containing a
> Primarch gain the Counter Attack special rule.
> 
> Titanic Might: Such is the power of the Primarchs that they may re‐roll all failed rolls to wound with close combat and shooting attacks.
> Heroic Strike: Instead of making their normal attacks in close combat, the Primarch may instead make a single attack which hits and wounds automatically.
> Against vehicles it causes an automatic penetrating hit against its target. The Heroic Strike is AP 1.
> 
> Primarch Armour: The artifice incorporated into the armour of the Primarchs means that none but the most determined of attacks can penetrate it. The
> armour provides a 1+ armour save (remembering that a roll of a 1 is always a failure).
> 
> Fallen Hero: Should a Primarch be reduced to 0 wounds or be taken out of the game in some manner, do not remove the model from the table. Instead
> place the model on its side (as practically possible). The model now forms an additional objective in Planetstrike, Seize Ground and the Capture and Control
> missions. In Annihilation and Planetstrike missions the Primarch counts as D3 kill points. Furthermore all allied Imperial units that remain within 6” of the
> gravely wounded Primarch gain the Counter Attack and Fearless universal special rules and all Astartes of the Primarch’s Legion on the battlefield are
> Fearless.


I have put them in spoilers tags to reduce the size of the post.
All entries are Cut/Paste from the PDF so any errors are not mine.
Let the rage commence :laugh:

SGMAlice


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

There are some sorta unexplained rules/wargear that would be nice to know what they do e.g. Primarch Armour and Legion Tactics etc.
Also, by having a 1+ armour save, does this mean they can only be wounded by weapons that ignore armour saves or are AP1?

Otherwise the stats seem pretty measured with nothing insanely OP, but I've only had a quick glance over it.


----------



## Loli

Personaly i think its pure win, do you know where you got the pdf from since id like to browse that since seems full of laughs.

Onto the Primarchs, honestly i really dont think they are all that bad. In apoc games it would be awesome and with bits of tweaking to there statlines i dont see much of a problem for normal games. Plus if you tweak the statlines, to slightly less then what they are you could just fluff it and say they are flawed clones of the Primarch hence not as good stat wise.

If anything its there abilities/tactics are the major draw from them. Since with them you can field (with the exception of Vulkan) lists closer to the chapter. ie i love Iron Hands and Ferrus would enable me to feild a list that feels and plays like Iron Hands if that makes sense.

I dont think they are unbeatable but it would take alot of work and effort to down these guys which as Primarchs it should. Purely from a fun stand point i dont see that much of a problem  Though i imagine im in a minority and shall get yelled at from the Halls.

Btw does Lion not have any tactic according to the PDF??


----------



## SGMAlice

spanner94ezekiel said:


> There are some sorta unexplained rules/wargear that would be nice to know what they do e.g. Primarch Armour and Legion Tactics etc.


Added them to the post.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Also, by having a 1+ armour save, does this mean they can only be wounded by weapons that ignore armour saves or are AP1?


As i figure this its a 2+, just poorly worded as a D6 roll of 1 is an automatic fail.



Loli said:


> Personaly i think its pure win, do you know where you got the pdf from since id like to browse that since seems full of laughs.


I have no idea where it came from. All i have is the PDF.



Loli said:


> Btw does Lion not have any tactic according to the PDF??


Must have missed that off, added to post.


Interesting point to note: The PDF states that the campaign should use 5th Ed. rules, Its not too old.

SGMAlice


----------



## Loli

Does the pdf contain the fallen Primarchs since Ferrus Manus gives referance to Fulgrim and Dorn gives reference to Iron Warriors, so presumably the other side have rules too?

And i think its good that it apparently was devised with 5th in mind so should make playing simple enough.

Shame really  Since i imagine someone yelling OP if you ever hit the table with some of these models.


----------



## OpTi

thats the old tempus fugitives pack i think there's a new one with much better rules for all the legions

http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/component/content/article/4/15-age-of-the-emperor

the rules are the expansion button on the right


----------



## Samules

I recommend dropping weapon skill by 1. They aren't gods so leave the godly stats to the actual gods.


----------



## Baltar

Sanguinius has a lower toughness than Mephiston.

FAIL.

Primarch stats should be rarely lower than 10 for anything... ever...


----------



## Baltar

Samules said:


> I recommend dropping weapon skill by 1. They aren't gods so leave the godly stats to the actual gods.


Even if all stats were 10, it wouldn't be close to true 'godlike' stats.

There are plenty of characters inferior to primarchs with very high stats.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Too bad this is only a PDF. Would love to have this issued with Primarch minis to match.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I think Corax should be looked at again, a lot of new info has sprung up with him and he's actually a lot more of a badass than you'd think. 

Dorn has a chainsword, he never wielded a the Fist of Dorn afaik, it was a weapon handed down by the captain of the 1st company terminators.

Vulkan wielded a massive two handed thunder hammer than no one else had the strength to carry afaik. Rather than being a frenzied fighter he was more of a lumbering behemoth.

Actually think a lot of the stats are should be higher to.


----------



## Imwookie2

They are pretty cool...has anyone tried to play with any of them?


----------



## Necrosis

OpTi said:


> thats the old tempus fugitives pack i think there's a new one with much better rules for all the legions
> 
> http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/component/content/article/4/15-age-of-the-emperor
> 
> the rules are the expansion button on the right


Dammit, just look at the update rules, you can't make a pure sister of silence army anymore!


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

I'm going to build a Rogal Dorn and try him out.


----------



## Imwookie2

ok cool Id really like to hear how he plays....let us know


----------



## OpTi

Well my group here are running a heresy era campaign and we are currently playtesting and soo far it's sooo much more fun than plain 40k.

Our last game had 2 primarchs, around 165 marines/terminators, 6 landraider spartans plus a few other bits and it was hella fun soo much carnage and marines everywhere.


----------



## Necrosis

OpTi said:


> Well my group here are running a heresy era campaign and we are currently playtesting and soo far it's sooo much more fun than plain 40k.
> 
> Our last game had 2 primarchs, around 165 marines/terminators, 6 landraider spartans plus a few other bits and it was hella fun soo much carnage and marines everywhere.


How many points was that?


----------



## OpTi

Necrosis said:


> How many points was that?


4 players with 2k pts each, so 8k pts on the table.

We're writing our own missions and our own FAQ while everyone is building and playtesting thier armies, we're hoping to get 4-5 players in some of the larger games with 2-2.5k pts each


----------



## Necrosis

Sounds like fun, will you be writing battle reports?


----------



## OpTi

we probably could do yes, infact i'm gonna suggest it on thursday while at GW


----------



## Necrosis

I look forward to reading it.
*Goes and writes a 2000 pt army list for fun*


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## Azkaellon

odd sanguinius is way weaker then the other primarchs even know he is the top swordsman amoung them and the most skill melee combatant.......well except for chaos power horus....Also he never has a bolt pistol in art work or fluff.....so this must be a pretty fail fan made doccument.


----------



## Necrosis

Azkaellon said:


> odd sanguinius is way weaker then the other primarchs even know he is the top swordsman amoung them and the most skill melee combatant.......well except for chaos power horus....Also he never has a bolt pistol in art work or fluff.....so this must be a pretty fail fan made doccument.


So basically there is one or two things I don't agree with so its an auto fail.


----------



## Baltar

It's "autofail" because most of the stats of the primarchs are inadequate.

That doesn't really mean there's anything wrong with it - because it's all just for fun.


----------



## Necrosis

Cause there stats are high enough already! Nothing like sanguinius hitting you with 6 S9 hits that rerolls failed to wounds, that strike at I7, assuming no blood angels died previous turn. Cause he gets bonus attacks for every single blood angel that died the previous turn.


----------



## Baltar

Mephiston, a blood angel Librarian, hits at S10, 7 attacks on the charge, with WS8, I7. He also has T6 and 5 wounds.

This is supposed to be SANGUINIUS.

Not "Mr Reasonably Hard".

Same applies to ALL the primarchs.


----------



## Necrosis

Baltar said:


> Mephiston, a blood angel Librarian, hits at S10, 7 attacks on the charge, with WS8, I7. He also has T6 and 5 wounds.
> 
> This is supposed to be SANGUINIUS.
> 
> Not "Mr Reasonably Hard".
> 
> Same applies to ALL the primarchs.


Is he rerolling failed to wounds?
WS8? Who cares Sanguinius is ws10! What you want something higher?
5 Wounds? Sanguinius has 6! What you want more? A guy who has an invu save and feel no pain needs more then 6 wounds? Good luck having an chance of even killing him!
Also what happens if you use psychic hood? Suddenly Mephiston isn't as strong? 
Does he have eternal warrior? Nope! 
Does he have an Invu save? Nope! 
Does he have a +1 Armour save? Nope! 
Does he have feel no pain? Nope!
Does he have independent character? Nope! 
Does he get extra attacks for blood angels that died the previous turn? Nope! Cause if 10 blood angels died the previous turn now Sanguinius is making 15 attacks! And yes this will be happening if you are fielding Sanguinius due to LP.


----------



## gen.ahab

Very cool, though I don't feel the stats are quite right in all cases. Regardless, Aus likey.


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## Baltar

Necrosis said:


> Is he rerolling failed to wounds?
> WS8? Who cares Sanguinius is ws10! What you want something higher?
> 5 Wounds? Sanguinius has 6! What you want more? A guy who has an invu save and feel no pain needs more then 6 wounds? Good luck having an chance of even killing him!
> Also what happens if you use psychic hood? Suddenly Mephiston isn't as strong?
> Does he have eternal warrior? Nope!
> Does he have an Invu save? Nope!
> Does he have a +1 Armour save? Nope!
> Does he have feel no pain? Nope!
> Does he have independent character? Nope!
> Does he get extra attacks for blood angels that died the previous turn? Nope! Cause if 10 blood angels died the previous turn now Sanguinius is making 15 attacks! And yes this will be happening if you are fielding Sanguinius due to LP.


He re-rolls to hit AND wound.

And Sanguinius costs *double* the points.

His stats are crap. You aren't convincing anyone.


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## Necrosis

Baltar said:


> He re-rolls to hit AND wound.
> 
> And Sanguinius costs *double* the points.
> 
> His stats are crap. You aren't convincing anyone.


Read the updated rules. You know you should actually do some research and find out where the information came from before passing judgement. Seeing if they change a few things which they did.

Also the rerolling hits and wound only happens if your opponent fails their test and only verse an independent character. Also lets not forget about Draigo who defeated a Primarch.

The new Sanguinius costs 155 points and 6 LP.


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## Djinn24

Baltar said:


> He re-rolls to hit AND wound.
> 
> And Sanguinius costs *double* the points.
> 
> His stats are crap. You aren't convincing anyone.


Actually its more along the lines that you aren't convincing anyone.

There is for sure some room for revision. Kahn not on a bike jumps out at me as being a bit off.

Remember kiddies, this game is not suppose to have unbeatable characters if you want that go play second edition.


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## Necrosis

Time for some math hammer:

So Mephiston goes first.


> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Attacks:* 5
> *Hit Chance:* 75%
> *Hits:* 3.75
> *Wound Chance:* 97.22%
> *Wounds:* 3.646
> *Saved Wounds:* 1.823
> *Unsaved Wounds:* 1.823
> *Models Killed:* 0.304
> *Options:* Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 3.75
> *Wounds:* 3.646
> *Saves:* 1.823
> *Wounds Lost:* 1.823
> *Models Lost:* 0.304 / 1 (30.4%)
> *Kills in I order:*
> *I:7* 0.304
> *Options:* Eternal
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


Now Sanguinius goes. If your wondering why he has 7 attacks, it cause it won't let me reroll a single attack.


> *Assaulting*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Attacks:* 7
> *Hit Chance:* 66.67%
> *Hits:* 4.667
> *Wound Chance:* 97.22%
> *Wounds:* 4.537
> *Unsaved Wounds:* 4.537
> *Models Killed:* 0.907
> *Options:* Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 4.667
> *Wounds:* 4.537
> *Wounds Lost:* 4.537
> *Models Lost:* 0.907 / 1 (90.7%)
> *Kills in I order:*
> *I:6* 0.907
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


As we can see Sanguinius won. Also Sanguinius helps the army out to. Like allowing you to reroll reserves, giving you a 2nd chance at taking the initiative and allowing allied units to use his leadership.


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## Necrosis

djinn24 said:


> Actually its more along the lines that you aren't convincing anyone.
> 
> There is for sure some room for revision. Kahn not on a bike jumps out at me as being a bit off.
> 
> Remember kiddies, this game is not suppose to have unbeatable characters if you want that go play second edition.


In the updated rules he can be given a bike.


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## OpTi

i'm sorry but i've seen the primarchs in action on the tabletop and they are plenty powerful, necrosis is correct that they are pretty cheap pts wise too.

My current list i run as an example of a 2k list

Thousand Son's AotE -2000pts

LP's
2000pts = +2LPs
20 Man Primary Units = +4LPs
Signature Units = +2LPs
Total = 8LPs
Used = 7LPs

HQ

Azhek Ahriman(Exhalted)	- 190pts -2LPs
Exhalted - Obscuration, Might, Null, Gate

Honour Guard Squad - 460 -4LPs
1 Chapter Champion, 8 Honour Guard
9 Relic Blades
Primarch Honour Guard - 1LP
Terminator Armour - 1LP
9 Storm Shields - 1LP
Legion Banner - 1LP
Land Raider Spartan - 220
Quickening, Potency
Extra Armour, Dozer


Troops

Legion Tactical Squad - 340pts +3LPs
20man, 2 Meltagun, 2 Missile Launcher
Pavoni - Mental Lash

Legion Tactical Squad - 380pts +3LPs
20man, 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist, Chain Blades
Hesyre - 1LP
Raptora – Potency of the Nine (+1S 2D6 ArmPen)
Land Raider Spartan - 220
Extra Armour, Dozer

Heavy Support

Legion Devastator Squad - 190pts
10man, 4 Missile Launcher
Pavoni - Mental Lash


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## Noddin

Yeah looking at the stats simply doesnt allow you to realise how powerful they are on the table top.

Ive been running AotE Ultras and I can say its FAR more fun than 40k

If the primarchs were much more powerful, they would not be ble to be stopped. Choose what you want but when you got a primarch running round with 10 Termi Primarch honour guard or 20 power armoured Marines or something similar, getting rid of them is VERY hard, if not nigh on immpossible. I promise you, pretty much all the Primarchs would rape Mephiston, and its simpy down to having the built in Invunerable save. Were also talking about potentially the best individual from 40k, and Primarchs will bust him.

Its not just about Primarchs though, the 20man squads of Marines is great. There are a few upgrade characters for a few legions which allow you to get special ammo, which is devastating. Also, Emperors Children Scout squad with 10 Lascannons, or a Iron Warrior Dev squad with 20 Tank Hunting heavy weapons? Yes please!

Heres my original list. Ive used a few different once since then. Flying Rhino, Primarch, 60 Marines and some Termis. Gotta love it!

Ultramarines 2000pts (+2LP)

Chapter Master 100pts
+ Artificer Armour 20pts
+ Powerfist 20pts
+ Storm Shield 10pts
Upgrade to Guilliman (-6LP)

Constantin Valdor 170pts (-3LP)

Emperors Gift 100pts (-1LP) 

Legion Tactical Squad 160pts
+ 10 Marines 160pts
+ Back Banner (Squad Leader) 15pts (+3LP) 
Upgrade to Squad Leader Batiatus (-1LP)
+ Gemini Drop Pods 80pts 

Legion Tactical Squad 160pts (+3LP)
+ 10 Marines 160pts
+ 2 Heavy Bolters 
+ 2 Meltaguns 20pts
+ Power fist (Veteran Sergeant) 20pts
+ Back Banner (Veteran Sergeant) 15pts

Legion Devastator Squad 150pts (+3LP)
+ 10 Marines 150pts
+ 8 Missile Launchers 80pts 
+ Land Raider Spartan 200pts
+ Extra Armour 15pts
+ Dozer Blade 5pts 

3 Legion Terminators 100pts
+1 Chain Fists 15pts
+3 Combi Melta 

Predator AAV 65pts
+ Dozer Blade 5pts
+ Extra Armour 15pts


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## Baltar

It's not about 'beating' Mephiston. Obviously a primarch would win with these rules.

My point is that they shouldn't just win, they should do it without taking a fucking scratch.

I suppose it depends whether you want the rules to be playable or accurate: You obviously can NOT have both.


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## Ravner298

Baltar said:


> It's not about 'beating' Mephiston. Obviously a primarch would win with these rules.
> 
> My point is that they shouldn't just win, they should do it without taking a fucking scratch.
> 
> I suppose it depends whether you want the rules to be playable or accurate: You obviously can NOT have both.


 
That's basically what it come down to. If you translate fluff into table top, they'd basically be untouchable, save vs. another primarch.

At least this way they're playable, beatable, yet still an incredible threat.

PS where's the chaos love?


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## Noddin

What killed Primarch Dorn according to the fluff?


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## Baltar

I was under the impression that it wasn't even certain that he is dead. I thought that only his hand was found...


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## Noddin

His body and power armour were apparently recovered, and his skeleton is entombed in amber (so I heard)

My point is he wasnt killed by another Primarch.

Depends how powerful you think a primarch was really I guess. Under the AotE rules, a Primarch will still nail a 20 man marine unit easy. 2 things I would change in the pack about primarchs. I would give them a 4+ FnP against any wound suffered (even ones normally ignoring FnP) and I would give them 2D6 armour pen vs vehicles. I personally think thats about right

Anyway, about the AotE pack, if you havnt tried it, give it a go, it sure is fun!


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## Ravner298

> and I would give them 2D6 armour pen vs vehicles.


isn't the might blow or whatever rule an auto pen at ap1? That far surpasses 2d6


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## Noddin

I dont know if you have an old pack or something, but that rule was in the Horus Heresy Pack. The new improved (and much more playable) AotE pack does not have that rule in. If you want to see the pack, use the link OpTi posted earlier in this thread


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## Baltar

Noddin said:


> His body and power armour were apparently recovered, and his skeleton is entombed in amber (so I heard)
> 
> My point is he wasnt killed by another Primarch.
> 
> Depends how powerful you think a primarch was really I guess. Under the AotE rules, a Primarch will still nail a 20 man marine unit easy. 2 things I would change in the pack about primarchs. I would give them a 4+ FnP against any wound suffered (even ones normally ignoring FnP) and I would give them 2D6 armour pen vs vehicles. I personally think thats about right
> 
> Anyway, about the AotE pack, if you havnt tried it, give it a go, it sure is fun!


I think you might be mistaken there. I believe it is Sanguinius who is entombed in amber - and he was killed by Horus.

AFIAK - Dorn's body has never been found. Only his hand.


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## Noddin

Dorn's skeleton without his hands is kept within a chapel, and embedded in clear amber contoured to the body form of the Primarch himself. Dorn's skeletal fists are kept within two shrines, the bones intricately engraved with the heraldry of all the Chapter's previous Masters. Only the Chapter Master has the right to engrave his name upon the bones. Each bone corresponds to former commanders. Left hand, the first metacarpal: Lords _Bronwin_ _Abermort_, _Maximus Thane_, _Kalman Flodensbog_, the first phalanx of the thumb, _Ambrosian Spactor_, etc.

Taken from 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn#.TzkyXLQXITA

I do conceed that there may be differing opinions online, though this is what I read along with a few other sites


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## OpTi

Ravner298 said:


> isn't the might blow or whatever rule an auto pen at ap1? That far surpasses 2d6


Thats the old pack you have

http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/component/content/article/4/15-age-of-the-emperor

The expansion button gets you the new much improved pack.


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## Necrosis

Anyone up for playing this on vassal?


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## gen.ahab

Ok, Leman Russ definitely needs some updating. I would change it so that he can only be used by C:SW, and his legion tactics are utterly useless. I would say that he should give all the units in the army fearless or something.


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## Necrosis

gen.ahab said:


> Ok, Leman Russ definitely needs some updating. I would change it so that he can only be used by C:SW, and his legion tactics are utterly useless. I would say that he should give all the units in the army fearless or something.


If you look at the update rules, he does everything you say. Give fearless (and headstrong) to 24 around him and can only be used by space wolves.


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## gen.ahab

Necrosis said:


> If you look at the update rules, he does everything you say. Give fearless (and headstrong) to 24 around him and can only be used by space wolves.


(looks at the updated PDF)

:shok: Best. PDF. Ever.


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## Eleven

I didn't read the whole thread to see if someone answered this, but to me, a 1+ save is like a 2+ save but you can't stop it with AP2 weapons.


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## Necrosis

Eleven said:


> I didn't read the whole thread to see if someone answered this, but to me, a 1+ save is like a 2+ save but you can't stop it with AP2 weapons.


I think that is it. So if you shot them with a plasma gun they will still get their 2+ save. It also gives them a 4+ invu save, relentless and allows them to be teleported on the battlefield.


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## Baltar

Seriously, these primarchs are weak beyond their combat capabilities. Think about how much they would inspire their troops... They are gods in the eyes of their marines...


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## Djinn24

Eleven said:


> I didn't read the whole thread to see if someone answered this, but to me, a 1+ save is like a 2+ save but you can't stop it with AP2 weapons.


As far as I am understanding it as well.


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## Necrosis

Baltar said:


> Seriously, these primarchs are weak beyond their combat capabilities. Think about how much they would inspire their troops... They are gods in the eyes of their marines...


Oh yes, cause a primarch should have 10's all across the table, make your army get every single special rule while were at it why don't we make it as soon as you field him you should automatically win the game. Here the thing, their not unbeatable, they do get defeated. Take Sanguinius, a bloodthirster defeated him. Right now their stats are slight stronger then a bloodthirster which is were it should be (this is not including their special rules which gives them a much greater advantage). Also you need to make them balance, cause if they are unbeatable why would anyone want to play verse you? Keep in mind these rules are also used in events. 

Seriously if you don't like then fine but that doesn't mean you have to keep coming here and moaning about it. At least back up your arguments with examples.


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## Baltar

Any bloodthirster did not beat him. The LORD of all bloodthirsters beat him - there is a difference.

The stats are slightly low - but as others have pointed out, the special rules more than make up for it. However, they (all) don't convey enough to their army.

The presence of (say) Sanguinius (or any other primarch) would make their army fight SO much better that it's indescribable. This isn't conveyed by the rules. They can fight like beasts, but nothing much more (with the odd exception).


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## Necrosis

Baltar said:


> Any bloodthirster did not beat him. The LORD of all bloodthirsters beat him - there is a difference.
> 
> The stats are slightly low - but as others have pointed out, the special rules more than make up for it. However, they (all) don't convey enough to their army.
> 
> The presence of (say) Sanguinius (or any other primarch) would make their army fight SO much better that it's indescribable. This isn't conveyed by the rules. They can fight like beasts, but nothing much more (with the odd exception).


And what would you do? Make every single primarch give his entire army furious charge, counter attack, +1 attack, feel no pain? Then why would anyone not playing space marines who is fielding their own primarch fight you? Why? What would be the point? Sanguinius already allows you to reroll the steal inititive, reroll reserves and allows blood angels to use his leadership. If you gave him anything else you would break the game. In the table top a space marine who is far stronger then a human in psychical strength and is wearing power armour which even enhances his strength even more still only has 1 additional strength then a guardsmen. Remember there is also a thing called balance which overrules the fluff.


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## Baltar

Hey man, you've already got at what I'm getting at: Primarchs either break the game or they are misrepresented - END OF STORY.

You can't have both.

You either make their rules playable but COMPLETELY shit. Or you make them accurate but unbeatable. Make a choice.

I don't care.

If they are playable to you and your opponents, then the rules are COMPLETE SHIT.

If they are unbeatable, why use them?

END.


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## Necrosis

Then why are you constantly coming back and constantly complaining about it? If you really didn't care you wouldn't have keep coming back and posting about it. I really don't see why you have to make such a big deal about it.


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## Djinn24

Just report him for trolling and block him like I did. Nice not having to see repeated trash spew forth over and over.


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## shaantitus

Good find Alice. It is things like this that can add a whole new dimension to the game of 40k. Very cool.


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## Serpion5

Baltar said:


> Hey man, you've already got at what I'm getting at: Primarchs either break the game or they are misrepresented - END OF STORY.
> 
> You can't have both.
> 
> You either make their rules playable but COMPLETELY shit. Or you make them accurate but unbeatable. Make a choice.
> 
> I don't care.
> 
> If they are playable to you and your opponents, then the rules are COMPLETE SHIT.
> 
> If they are unbeatable, why use them?
> 
> END.


Well, we're obviously done here. The local authority has made his call and the discussion need not continue.  


In case that was too subtle, that was code speak for Baltar, please keep your snideness levels to a minimum. Yours is not the be all and end all of a discussion as you seem to believe.


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## BrainFreeze

I read through the PDF on this and the characters seem interesting in a SM focused game but when you add other factions them seem over godlike. For example yes each Primarch should be a badass, but none of them should be able to stand up to and entity like the Nightbringer in one on one combat, this just seems to be a case of stacking cool ability on top of cool ability in a push to make people thing SMs are even cooler.

I guess what I would like to see are rules for the other big baddies on here, we have CSM and SM well represented. I would like to see equilivants of Eldrad/The Nightbringer/The Deceiver some of the larger Orcs who have been shown to be mighter then certain beings..


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## shaantitus

On the other hand fulgrim beat the avatar bare handed, and ferrus manus beat the silver worm (Possible C-tan)Asirnoth(sp?) bare handed. They are indeed mighty. Then there is the time an un-augmented human managed to stick a sword into alpharius.:headbutt:


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## Serpion5

Primarchs are indeed mighty warriors. But in the end they could bleed and they could die, as many did in fact. :crazy: 

Keep in mind that game stats do not reflect canon or limitations. I doubt Sanguinius is going to expend the same amount of effort battling orks as he would fighting a Bloodthirster. By the same token I have read of a space marine bringing down monsters of orkoid and chaotic alignment, whilst elsewhere one might be laid low by a lucky swing from a hormagaunt.


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## Baltar

BrainFreeze said:


> I read through the PDF on this and the characters seem interesting in a SM focused game but when you add other factions them seem over godlike. For example yes each Primarch should be a badass, but none of them should be able to stand up to and entity like the Nightbringer in one on one combat, this just seems to be a case of stacking cool ability on top of cool ability in a push to make people thing SMs are even cooler.
> 
> I guess what I would like to see are rules for the other big baddies on here, we have CSM and SM well represented. I would like to see equilivants of Eldrad/The Nightbringer/The Deceiver some of the larger Orcs who have been shown to be mighter then certain beings..


If you mean an *actual* Nightbringer, then yeah maybe.

If you mean the new, super shitty Nightbringer 'shard' (or whatever it is now), then hell no. If a primarch couldn't beat that thing, then it'd be very questionable.


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## OpTi

BrainFreeze said:


> I read through the PDF on this and the characters seem interesting in a SM focused game but when you add other factions them seem over godlike. For example yes each Primarch should be a badass, but none of them should be able to stand up to and entity like the Nightbringer in one on one combat, this just seems to be a case of stacking cool ability on top of cool ability in a push to make people thing SMs are even cooler.
> 
> I guess what I would like to see are rules for the other big baddies on here, we have CSM and SM well represented. I would like to see equilivants of Eldrad/The Nightbringer/The Deceiver some of the larger Orcs who have been shown to be mighter then certain beings..


The pack is designed for SM on SM, other races would likely just get crushed without the added currency of the LP system giving you free upgrades effectively. They did add another pack with some dark eldar and orks but the SC's cost pure points so they didn't really add anything to the army.


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## Boc

Baltar said:


> If you mean an *actual* Nightbringer, then yeah maybe.
> 
> If you mean the new, super shitty Nightbringer 'shard' (or whatever it is now), then hell no. If a primarch couldn't beat that thing, then it'd be very questionable.


I actually agree with this... the older Nightbringer, since it was an actual C'Tan, should have been able to rip apart a Primarch. However, if we say a C'Tan Shard is on par with, say, an Avatar of Khaine (broken fragment of a God, and all), then since one was strangled to death by a primarch, I wouldn't see it as overly unlikely, though still probably a pretty even fight.

And back on topic from the fluff behind it to the actual rules... very cool shit. Pretty awesome find, though I probably wouldn't use the rules unless I didn't suck at converting enough to actually make a worthy model of them haha.


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