# Were the Traitor Primarchs really betrayed by the Emperor?



## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

a few examples could be Magnus and Perturabo.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

IMHO none of them really were betrayed by the Emperor. That was just the way each of them perceived it after horus planted the idea that the Emperor was using them all so that he could ascend to godhood (which this idea was given to horus by the chaos gods when he was being "saved".) It really was just a matter of which primarch was more loyal to, Horus as the Warmaster (which essentially was that he was to operate on the Emperor's behalf) or the Emperor himself.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

None were actually betrayed by the Emperor. The closest is Magnus, but it is said Horus redirected the Space Wolves to attack them instead of just bringing Magnus to a court hearing for breaking the no-sorcery pact.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

They weren't really betrayed but manipulated by the Emperor. I dont think Emperor is a good guy, hes just another Chaos god trying to control and manipulate others to his will.
He exploited each of the Primarchs according o their strengths and their weaknesses, like Angron was sent into only bloody assaults or when slaughtering an entire population.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> They weren't really betrayed but manipulated by the Emperor. I dont think Emperor is a good guy, hes just another Chaos god trying to control and manipulate others to his will.
> He exploited each of the Primarchs according o their strengths and their weaknesses, like Angron was sent into only bloody assaults or when slaughtering an entire population.


That's a rather hard pill to swallow as every book written that includes any mention of the Emperor always paints him in either the light of this holy, divine, all good being or (if from the standpoint of the traitor legions) the false god/corpse emperor. He didn't really exploit the Primarchs, he played to their strengths as any good commander would do. Why would you send Angron into a situation that needed finesse? I'm pretty sure Angron didn't mind being sent on bloody assaults or slaughtering entire populations. According to all the fluff I've read, the Emperor did not betray or exploit anybody but rather was betrayed by his own "sons". Besides, all the primarchs owe their existence to the Emperor as he's the one that created them in his own likeness, giving each one a part of the Emperor's ability (Magnus had the psyker ability, Horus the indomitable will to conquer, Angron the bloodlust, Emperor's Children the precise and strategic planning, etc.)


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

They were definitely the betrayers.

Look at Mortarion. When the Destroyer Hive infested his body it reminded him of the time right before the Emperor stepped in to save his life. I'd bet all I own that he wished that the Emperor could have saved him rather than Nurgle.

As for Magnus, it wasn't just the Emperor, Horus had a hand in trying to turn another of his brothers to Chaos. He was a master of psychology and did it anyway he could.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

IMHO the only Primach to be betrayed by the big fella was Konrad Cruze. The Emperor used him as a terror tatic and then when he became to effective he got had up on War Crimes basically. Thats bullshit in my opinion. The weapon is only as dangerous as the man who weilds it. This was before the Heresy had started. Horus then used it to his advantage.

Horus and the others weren't betrayed by the Emperor, they just got a better offer from somebody else. They were the Betrayers. Magnus was betrayed by Horus, not the Emperor.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

The Emperor betrayed the Chaos Gods. Then Horus betrayed the Emperor. The Chaos Gods betrayed Horus after he'd killed the Emperor.

The Emperor really began the whole cycle. If he hadn't either betrayed the Chaos Gods in the first place, or borrowed their power to create the Primarches, then the Chaos Gods wouldn't have had to turn Horus and use him as a tool to destroy the Emperor.

Not that it matters now. Everything worked out for the best - both the Emperor and Horus are dead and the Imperium is stagnant and ignorant, feeding the Chaos Gods on their superstitious, mindless worship until the end of time.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

how did chaos betray horus the emperor killed him in the end with a massive psycic attack that obliteraed his soul


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

NoiseMarine said:


> how did chaos betray horus the emperor killed him in the end with a massive psycic attack that obliteraed his soul


Yes, yes, we've all heard the story. Horus turns traitor, declares his allegiance to Chaos, turns his brother Primarches against the Emperor, pulls an ambush on the Loyalist SMs and massacres them along with a loyal Primarch, causes a civil war that halts the Great Crusade and kills countless billions of Imperial citizens, then he sieges Terra, inexplicably lowers the shields on his ship (and his ship alone), and then personally kills his brother Sanguinius.

Enter the Emperor. Who, supposedly, sees all this (Horus a warp-twisted madman laughing over the corpse of his weakling brother while declaring his unending fealty to Chaos and his hatred of the Emperor) and still thinks Horus can be saved (not a great stretch of the imagination, the Emperor _was_ a cretin). So they fight, and Horus beats the Emperor to within an inch of his life, while sustaining no fatal wounds himself.

Then (and this is the really hilarious bit) in walks one random loyalist Terminator who Horus kills. And THIS is what finally convinces the Emperor that perhaps Horus is a wee bit beyond salvation? So he doesn't care about the death of Sanguinius? Or the deaths of countless billions? It was one terminator that did it. And then the Emperor insta-kills Horus, because he could have done that all along but decided that having his LUNGS RIPPED OUT isn't proof enough that Horus doesn't like daddy anymore.

Does that make the slightest bit of sense? It's Imperial propaganda. Horus killed the Emperor, then the Chaos Gods claimed his soul (he _did_ sell it to them). After all, they don't want to off the Emperor only to have his son take over - what's the difference between one powercrazed cretin and another? Much better to leave the Imperium leaderless and scared. Breeds better worshippers that way.

Maybe the Imperium really believes that happened. Dorn saw the Emperor's body and Horus a pile of ash, and believing that the Emperor was just a benevolent (but incredibly, _incredibly_ stupid) guy who couldn't accept that his son was evil made the most sense. To a moron like Dorn that'd make sense anyway. It's fairly obvious what really happened.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

So i take it you dont like the emperor or his sons very much then, eh Pseudo?

And i believe it was the way in which Horus killed the terminator (or was it one of the Custodes?)that woke the emperor up...it showed him there was no salvagable Horus left, that he was simply a pawn of chaos and nothing more.

But have you ever really looked at the emperor? If the primarchs each reflectde a part of the emperor, that doesn't paint a very nice picture of the guy does it...lok at night haunter and angron kinda scary isnt it, and the fact that many of the primarchs, fully half, were so easy to corrupt...just makes me think there's something major wrong with the emperor...which is what i've felt since i got into 40K.

But i dont believe the emperor betrayed them, just kept them in the dark about things...


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## vorbis (Nov 20, 2007)

i cant remember which one it was and to tired to find it out but didnt one try to warn big empy boy that horus was turning traitor but because the only way to do it was using chaos he was declared a heretic bit hypocritical if ya asks me


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Yes, it was Magnus of the thousand sons and he used the warp to send a psyker message to the emperor who had forbade its usage and in turn sent Leman Russ of the space wolves to bring him back to Terra. But the emperor didn't betray Magnus, he wanted him brought alive to terra to answer in person, Horus convinced Russ to destroy prospero and kill Magnus (and Russ was plenty eager to kill his brother---was he tainted?) But the emperor had also called for night haunter to be brought to terra as well to answer for his crimes. There was no betrayal at all from the emperor unless you think that the most powerful psyker ever probaly saw the future, saw Horus turn, Sanguinus die, the imperium fall into eternal struggle and chose to ignore it, then, then maybe that could be seen as a betrayal...


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

:laugh:The future is foreseeable?

I don't see this as granted.To eldar,any look into the _possible_ future is a guess,not a easy and secure way to get a advice.
Its not a use psi-power and know what will happen ability.
So even the emperor,as able psyker,had no chance to look into the 
future and see the heresy.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

I dont believe that, especially if you read some of the books and info out there, there is much talk of the foreseeable future (read Legion for one) and just because the eldar guess the future doesn't mean the beacon of humanity, the god emperor himself does, im pretty sure he's above and beyond even the most capable of the eldar farseers!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

while im a loyalist at heart i do think there is something dodgy about the emperor and i think by not fully telling the primarchs about the dangers of chaos and what they can do he did betray them as he left them susceptable to the whispers of chaos.
maybe it was to keep any of his sons from eventually gaining more power than him (magnus) and maybe he did have some plan and didnt want anyone throwing a spanner in the works (konrad curze). he was quite into the sychphant primarchs (dorn and guilleman). 
the only one that was probably the most honourable in the galaxy was sanguinius and he was best suited for the emperors position but yet the emperor let horus become warmaster and sanguinius was somehow the first to attack horus, maybe emp tampered with teleporter so the main rival for the title would be killed. 
anyway, we will find out soon enough in HH novels and then we might finally have answers to all this.


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## vorbis (Nov 20, 2007)

i read a lot on these boards about the emp making a deal with chaos? whats that all about?


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

vorbis said:


> i read a lot on these boards about the emp making a deal with chaos? whats that all about?


**FALSE GODS SPOILERS**



From the Horus Heresy book False Gods. It explains how the Emperor made a deal with Chaos in order to get power and to create the Primarches. After he had created them, he betrayed Chaos. In retribution the Chaos Gods snatched the Primarches away while they were infants and scattered them on seperate worlds.

Yep, that means the Emperor was just a regular 'ole Chaos Cultist. He got a bit too big for his boots so the Chaos Gods smacked him down.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

which i think is just chaos propaganda really. i mean we are talking about chaos making this statement which is not a reliable source really. though i do think the emperor is far from a perfect being and has been being sly for a hell of a long time.


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## vorbis (Nov 20, 2007)

although something dodgy about emp it smacks of a great big lie to me what could he poss of offered the gods so they would give him power to rival theirs and means that even now believers in him have icons so powerful it can banish their demons


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Except everything else that Erebus showed/said was true - the future Ecclesiarchy, the rampant worship of the 'God'-Emperor, the Primarches and how they were created and then scattered through the warp.

Why would he/Chaos lie about ONE detail that wasn't even relevant to the point he/Chaos was trying to make - namely that the Emperor was trying to become a God - when everything else he said was true?


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

but by opposing the emperor and horus putting a end to him then they have created that god that they did not want around.

if they had let the emperor live then he wouldnt have been anymore powerful than he already was at that point, now he has attained godhood and possibly gained godly power just from the worship of mankind the same as any other god has done for the other races. 

if they had left him he would have come unstuck somewhere when he couldnt get things done as he couldnt be in all places at once and slowly resentment for the emperor would have taken over and this would follow by rebellion and the eventual turning from the emperor and chaos no doubt stepping in and reigning supreme. though they wouldnt have a almighty warp powered god-emperor to put the spanner in the works.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

For a start, you don't attain godhood through worship. A Chaos God is just an amalgamation of like-minded souls (all the souls of angry people who have died join together to become Khorne, for example). Worship won't change that, the Emperor is just a desiccated corpse.

Not that it matters - what matters is that what Erebus said WAS true. The Emperor DID end up getting worshipped as a God. Erebus/Chaos didn't lie to Horus at any point.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Erebus/Chaos didn't lie to Horus at any point.


You mean except when he was pretending to be Sejanus? :good:

I read this board an awful lot, and I enjoy reading the books a lot more than playing the game, so I think I'll weigh in with my opinion.

First though to keep on topic, I reckon Angorn could have felt aggrieved at the Emp, considering he teleported the big red dude away from his slave army just before it was massacred, not the best idea the Emp ever had really, I believe he kept his sons and to an extent the Imperium as a whole in the dark over the Chaos Gods so it wouldnt feed their power, obviously that was folly, but you cant blame him for effort lol

SPOILER ALERT

Erebus and Chaos was the ones who effectivley killed Horus in the first place with the weapon from the Intersex <sp?> thats not exactly honest.
About Davin though, hmmm well Erebus was betrayed by the lodge woman (cant remember her name) when she slit his throat so he could distort Horus' perceptions of what had happend, which wasn't a good start.
He did this by appearing to Horus as his most favourite son Sejanus, not exactly honest is it.
Then they showed him a vision of what could be, operative word being COULD, Horus was the one who made sure it came to pass, they didnt say to him 'just let yourself die and this wont happen' no they let him believe it was cast in iron.
Then they show him what they reckon happened with his and his brothers creation, we dont have another side of that story just what they say and given who they are its a bit hard to believe.

Anyway just my take on things


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Ok, let me append that to 'he didn't lie about anything to do with the Emperor'.

And he didn't tell him what could happen. He told him what DOES happen. Besides which, even if your quantum physics-y argument did hold weight, how did you know that the Emperor wasn't going to be worshipped as a God even if Horus didn't turn traitor? The Imperial Cult that would later become the Ecclesiarchy had already taken root before the Emperor had even left Horus' side.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> For a start, you don't attain godhood through worship. A Chaos God is just an amalgamation of like-minded souls (all the souls of angry people who have died join together to become Khorne, for example). Worship won't change that, the Emperor is just a desiccated corpse.
> 
> Not that it matters - what matters is that what Erebus said WAS true. The Emperor DID end up getting worshipped as a God. Erebus/Chaos didn't lie to Horus at any point.



but with the emperor having one of the most powerful souls in the warp and what ever the golden thrones does to the emperors powers then any worship for the emperor could give him power like when chaos gets worshipped they recieve power. this is the same with all gods in the 40k universe. its evident with the star gods as the deciever was getting more powerful as he had the most worship and the other gods didnt like it so to stop himself being destroyed he sent some of his followers to worship others. i know they are different to warp beings but there will be the same principal to all gods.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Ok, let me append that to 'he didn't lie about anything to do with the Emperor'.
> 
> And he didn't tell him what could happen. He told him what DOES happen. Besides which, even if your quantum physics-y argument did hold weight, how did you know that the Emperor wasn't going to be worshipped as a God even if Horus didn't turn traitor? The Imperial Cult that would later become the Ecclesiarchy had already taken root before the Emperor had even left Horus' side.


the thing is that what is now the imperial cult went through a few thousands years of change to get to the current standard worship. there was said to be hundreds of different cults that would destroy each other and so forth until the standard imperial cult was formed. not sure if it was after the reign of vandire or something, i read that fluff a while ago now. 
but the emperor was always gonna be regarded as a god because of his outstanding powers. maybe if he had said he was a god from the beginning it would have been better for mankind as they seem like they need to worship a higher power and instead of people turning to chaos they could have always believed in the emperor.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Ok, let me append that to 'he didn't lie about anything to do with the Emperor'.
> 
> And he didn't tell him what could happen. He told him what DOES happen. Besides which, even if your quantum physics-y argument did hold weight, how did you know that the Emperor wasn't going to be worshipped as a God even if Horus didn't turn traitor? The Imperial Cult that would later become the Ecclesiarchy had already taken root before the Emperor had even left Horus' side.


You seem to fail to grasp the idea that Horus brought it about by his actions, granted it was starting to take a hold but was kept in check, when the Emp was interred in the Golden Throne it really spread like wildfire, and who put him in the throne?
Chaos showed him what they wanted him to see, their version of the truth, until we see another side to what happened we cant say for certain it's exact.
Choas by its very nature is decietful, not only Tzeentch but the lot of them, look at poor Fulgrim for example.


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## Asimondai (Jul 15, 2008)

Some of the Traitor Primarches were bitter, especially Angorn and Peturabo, partly because of their preception of the Emporers return to Terra, however the psyhcological (spelt wrong i think) issues they faced also came from what they thought other Primarches thought about them. This can be seen in Alpharious, Night haunter and Mortarion. Horus used their insecurities to turn them, i.e they would overcome those who look down on us. 

This is only my opinion.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

In reality i don't see the emperor betraying the primarchs but they do, as it has been stated, which is probably in part from the emperor keeping info from them, but thats easy to understand when you look at the psycholgical profiles of many of the primarchs and the power they had and the incredible strain and stress they were under. Even their backgrounds deepen the cracks in their psyche. It was only the weakest of mind that fell to chaos, those whos minds could be easily manipulated, which is why chaos chose them. Reading the HH books shows snippets of this particularily with Horus and Fulgrim. Other primarchs you can see it from fluff such as Night Haunter and Angron. The fact that they are broken mentally leads to their anger issues which allows them to perform as daemon princes. If they would let go of their anger and hatred, i'm sure they could again side with good. But that's way too much to hope for...


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

if they could let go fo their anger? wtf do expect them to be friggin hippies or something?! for shits sake ALL the primarchs had cracks in their psychie that could be exploited, this doesnt make them "weak willed". Angron did have anger issues but it didnt make him weak, he had resented the emperor from the start and we all know this. the emperor betrayed his sense of honor by letting his whole army get slaughtered while he was teleported to safety. the fact he thought the emp was a sneaky bastard doesnt make him "weak". maybe you meant something else cause that was a poor choice of words. what about Dorn's monstrous pride? isnt that a weakness in humans? and chaos didnt choose them, Horus did. he knew which ones had a grudge with how they were being treated by the emp and he exploited them. dorn and guilliman were too much the sycophants to be turned and he knew that so he turned the ones that knew they were being screwed over. as for lorgar he was a puss and if erebus hadnt planted that stupid sword to injure horus i dount horus would have turned at all. they werent weak they were human just like everyone else. night haunter WAS being used and he knew it. wouldnt you turn on someone who was using you? fuck i would, same with perturabo, no props on breaking down every inpenetrable barrier in the Imperium's way just the breaking up of your legion as a reward. and dont give me the crap that it was horus that did this to turn perturabo cuz it had been going on since perturabo had been given command and horus wasnt warmaster at that time people so that means it was the emp's command. the guy was a douchebag to his sons and the ones that turned saw the truth of it.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

All children resent their parents at one time or another but it is only a certain few that chop them up in their beds. The fragility of the human psyche is inside everyone, but some are more fragile than others. For instance Dorn's monsterous pride...the gods couldn't sway him because his pride is what ties him to the Imperium. The primarchs who fell had suposed grievances towards the Imperium which is why they were swayed. And as for Night Haunter...all the primarchs were being used as were humanity. They are all tools.His tool was different sure, but he messed up, through choice or judgement, he made a mistake...a flaw in his character. Angron hated the emperor for saving his skin and leaving his men, ok, im sure the emperor could've gone down there and mopped them up easily but there was a bigger picture, there is always a bigger picture and Angron couldn't see or didn't want to see this. Many humans share same flaws in mental makeup (such as phobias and paranoia and other such things) as im sure the one or more of the primarchs shared some of their flaws, but only a few were turned. Chaos and/or Horus turned them because they felt slighted by the emperor or the imperium or both, but did they really get slighted or did they just percieve the slight? I say they were not, that they saw or heard exactly what they wanted too, why, IMO becaus their weaknesses were exploited to the fullest. We know chaos tried to convert Ferrus Manus of the Iron hands and he resisted. Maybe all the primarchs were tested in some way and half resisted, the other half didn't. This is all just speculation and my opinion, you don't have to get too upset by it. Each to their own and all...


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Unknown Primarch said:


> but with the emperor having one of the most powerful souls in the warp and what ever the golden thrones does to the emperors powers then any worship for the emperor could give him power like when chaos gets worshipped they recieve power.


Except Chaos Gods don't receive power when they're worshipped. They receive power through sacrifice - a living person who is brought to the brink of that God's ethos (bloodlust/sensation/decay/hope) and then killed.

When the Chaos Gods receive that person's soul they can use it to add to themselves (a Chaos God is just a giant lump of souls (to be even more exact, the ripples these souls cause in the warp)) thus receiving more power.

The only way in which the Emperor is similar to a Chaos God is that his warp presence is also made up of several souls - to be exact, his is made of the souls of a bunch of shamans who commited mass suicide. Which is all irrelevant anyway, because the Emperor is long dead.



Kickback said:


> You seem to fail to grasp the idea that Horus brought it about by his actions, granted it was starting to take a hold but was kept in check, when the Emp was interred in the Golden Throne it really spread like wildfire, and who put him in the throne?
> Chaos showed him what they wanted him to see, their version of the truth, until we see another side to what happened we cant say for certain it's exact.
> Choas by its very nature is decietful, not only Tzeentch but the lot of them, look at poor Fulgrim for example.


Ugh, I grasp what happened perfectly.

Chaos/Erebus said they were showing Horus the future - TRUE.

Chaos/Erebus said this is what MAY happen depending on Horus' actions - ALSO VERY TRUE.

Obviously they were very deceitful, *but they didn't lie*. Which is beside the point anyway, all I wanted to show was that the Chaos Gods' didn't tell any lies (in the sense that they gave false information).

I know they withheld information, that's perfectly obvious, but when they said that *the Emperor made a deal with them in exchange for power to create the Primarches* it's doubtful they would've outrighted lied (because up until then they hadn't, about anything - and why would they suddenly start making stuff up when it had nothing to do with turning Horus to Chaos anyway?).

They might have, again, withheld information. But what information could they be withholding that'd make the Emperor trading with Chaos for power seem justified? That he didn't say please and thank you?


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeah but chaos were the ones that cultivated all this not the emperor.

if chaos had never tried to turned the primarchs and left the emperor to build the imperium to its full glory then none of what they showed horus would have happened. 
the emperor would have made sure no one worshipped him as a god, trillions of people would not have been killed in the heresy, none of the primarchs would have turned and become daemon princes and the imperium wouldnt have been in the state it is in now. 

its is all chaos's doing and they probably planned it all that way so it made what they were saying all along true. they were totally jealous of what the emperor was doing and for them all to unite (which is rare) shows that they werent has powerful as they seemed or the emperor was more powerful than anyone realised.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

The only way enemies would ally would to fight a common enemy that was stronger than them individually. They feared the emperor or at the very least felt threatened by him. 

And as for Chaos' lies, every lie has an ounce of truth to it, as would misinformation. So no matter what lies or deceptions chaos pulled there IS truth in there, you just have to find it. 

As for withholding information about the emperors deal with them, maybe it was chaos who struck the deal with the emperor. Maybe chaos gave the emperor the plans for the primarchs and promised him the galaxy then betrayed him. If they would have told that Horus he probably would've rejected them. Just a thought...


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Unknown Primarch said:


> yeah but chaos were the ones that cultivated all this not the emperor.


Yes, I can see why you'd think that. What with the way he begged for power from them, then betrayed them.



Unknown Primarch said:


> if chaos had never tried to turned the primarchs and left the emperor to build the imperium to its full glory then none of what they showed horus would have happened.


Which you know for a fact, huh? Or are you baselessly speculating?



Unknown Primarch said:


> the emperor would have made sure no one worshipped him as a god, trillions of people would not have been killed in the heresy, none of the primarchs would have turned and become daemon princes and the imperium wouldnt have been in the state it is in now.


Buuuh... the Emperor WANTED to be a Chaos God. Why would he ally with the Chaos Gods for power, otherwise? Why would he bother trying to gather so many worshippers? So he could go back to Terra and spend the rest of eternity talking to beurocrats? If that were the case (which it patently isn't), Horus did him a favor.



Unknown Primarch said:


> its is all chaos's doing and they probably planned it all that way so it made what they were saying all along true. they were totally jealous of what the emperor was doing and for them all to unite (which is rare) shows that they werent has powerful as they seemed or the emperor was more powerful than anyone realised.


Where does it say that the Chaos Gods united? Technically it doesn't say anywhere that they were even vaguely interested in the Emperor!

But even if they were, they have brains the size of solar systems. Do you really think it'd take them long to come up with a plan as complicated as 'pick on emo kid till he goes kill daddy'?

As a Black Library writer said not too long ago, the Chaos Gods are ageless, unbelievably powerful deities that cannot be harmed. The lives of empires, nevermind individuals, pass them by so quickly they can barely perceive them. They care about as much for the Emperor, or the Imperium for that matter, as you do for Bob the Stalk of Wheat that was part of your lunch today.



Angel of Retribution said:


> The only way enemies would ally would to fight a common enemy that was stronger than them individually. They feared the emperor or at the very least felt threatened by him.


No they didn't, don't be daft. The Emperor might be powerful by mortal standards but he wasn't even up for the task of killing his son, nevermind a Galaxy-spawning, immortal, timeless super-entity that can destroy entire star systems in raw energy at a mere whim (see - warp storm).



Angel of Retribution said:


> And as for Chaos' lies, every lie has an ounce of truth to it, as would misinformation. So no matter what lies or deceptions chaos pulled there IS truth in there, you just have to find it.


Why lie when the truth is better?



Angel of Retribution said:


> As for withholding information about the emperors deal with them, maybe it was chaos who struck the deal with the emperor. Maybe chaos gave the emperor the plans for the primarchs and promised him the galaxy then betrayed him. If they would have told that Horus he probably would've rejected them. Just a thought...


Not that that's true, I just want it to go on the record that you believe the Emperor was nothing more than a pawn of the Chaos Gods, who used Chaos' own plans to create the Primarches (which not even I said, I just said he used their power to create the plans himself).

Man, you Dark Angels have a knack for the heretical, don't you? Oh well, another Fallen to bolster the masses.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

“Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the war’s desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born – we are the flame of Humanity where the rest of the galaxy is just the spark. In centuries of warfare, against the vileness of the alien, the lies of the heretic, the foulness of the mutant, I have never known fear – but your silence terrifies me.”


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> No they didn't, don't be daft. The Emperor might be powerful by mortal standards but he wasn't even up for the task of killing his son, nevermind a Galaxy-spawning, immortal, timeless super-entity that can destroy entire star systems in raw energy at a mere whim (see - warp storm).
> 
> Why lie when the truth is better?
> 
> ...


Numero Uno: He did in fact kill his son it was his compasion and love that held him back for so long. And talk about emo kids, that's all the chaos gods really are!!!

Numero Two-o: You can't handle the truth. Most people can't; Try telling a skinny girl she's not fat and she spends an hour throwing up in the bogs. Tell a fat girl she aint skinny and you get belted around the head a lot!!!

Numero the Third: It was just a suggestion not a belief as i said, just a thought!!! I believe that the emperor was striving to become a god or was a chaos god in human form (not going to go deep into that one right now) and because of this the chaos gods turned on him by turning many of his beloved sons. And why not use somebody elses ideas to further your own goals, after all the chaos gods reside in the warp and he resides in the real world. He don't need them.

And finally:

Numero Three Squared: I AM NO HERETIC WORD BEARER! I AM NO FALLEN! I HUNT THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPEROR, HUNT THE WEAK WHO FELL! GLORY TO THE EMPEROR! REPENT FALLEN, REPENT! Now i must pray for your sins and the sins i shall do to the enemIes of the mighty Emperor!!!!!!


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Numero Uno: He did in fact kill his son it was his compasion and love that held him back for so long. And talk about emo kids, that's all the chaos gods really are!!!


See my second post - the Emperor can't kill Horus if he's already dead.



Angel of Retribution said:


> Numero Two-o: You can't handle the truth. Most people can't; Try telling a skinny girl she's not fat and she spends an hour throwing up in the bogs. Tell a fat girl she aint skinny and you get belted around the head a lot!!!


Sounds like you not only can't handle the truth, you can't handle the blindingly obvious!

Also - you hang around a lot of slaaneshi girls, from the sounds of things. You say skinny and fat, I see vanity and greed. Nice one Fallen, those slaanesh cultists put out, don't they? :good:



Angel of Retribution said:


> Numero the Third: It was just a suggestion not a belief as i said, just a thought!!! I believe that the emperor was striving to become a god or was a chaos god in human form (not going to go deep into that one right now) and because of this the chaos gods turned on him by turning many of his beloved sons. And why not use somebody elses ideas to further your own goals, after all the chaos gods reside in the warp and he resides in the real world. He don't need them.


Except his power comes from the fact that he's a psyker. And a psyker's power comes from the warp (psychic powers ARE the warp). Sooo... the Emperor was really closer to a daemon I guess. Not a full Chaos God, but a strong warp presence, no doubt.

THAT raises an interesting thought - what if the Emperor was just a daemon that posessed some human? That'd make a lot of sense - how he got his power from the Chaos Gods, why he betrayed them, his strong warp presence, why the Chaos Gods were interested in killing him (didn't want other daemons getting the same idea)...



Angel of Retribution said:


> Numero Three Squared: I AM NO HERETIC WORD BEARER! I AM NO FALLEN! I HUNT THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPEROR, HUNT THE WEAK WHO FELL! GLORY TO THE EMPEROR! REPENT FALLEN, REPENT! Now i must pray for your sins and the sins i shall do to the enemIes of the mighty Emperor!!!!!!


You'd make a fantastic Khorne cultist, you know that? Can you be a Khorne worshipper and Fallen at the same time?


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> See my second post - the Emperor can't kill Horus if he's already dead.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:
funny,those word bearers


> Except his power comes from the fact that he's a psyker. And a psyker's power comes from the warp (psychic powers ARE the warp). Sooo... the Emperor was really closer to a daemon I guess. Not a full Chaos God, but a strong warp presence, no doubt.
> 
> THAT raises an interesting thought - what if the Emperor was just a daemon that posessed some human? That'd make a lot of sense - how he got his power from the Chaos Gods, why he betrayed them, his strong warp presence, why the Chaos Gods were interested in killing him (didn't want other daemons getting the same idea)...


Never seen any traitor so helpless defending his non-existing arguments.
emperor-psyker-warp-demon :laugh: 
Where do you take this "he got his power from the chaos uke:godsuke:" from? The warp was installed by the old ones as weapon against the C'Tan,
your so called gods are not more than a weapon out of control.



You'd make a fantastic tau player, you know that? Can you be a greater good worshipper and word bearer at the same time?:taunt:


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Sounds like you not only can't handle the truth, you can't handle the blindingly obvious!
> 
> Also - you hang around a lot of slaaneshi girls, from the sounds of things. You say skinny and fat, I see vanity and greed. Nice one Fallen, those slaanesh cultists put out, don't they? :good:
> 
> You'd make a fantastic Khorne cultist, you know that? Can you be a Khorne worshipper and Fallen at the same time?



I don't need to see the truth only fight the enemies of the empire. The servant need not see through the eyes of the master only trust that his master can see...

I never claimed to be perfect. Im sure i show all seven sins at one time or another but that was just an example, the only one i could think of after geting off work and it was simple enough to work. But why insist i am fallen. I can't play the bad guy very well and to be on the run forever is just too much work. Besides i fight for the emperor, the non-betrayer, the beacon of humanity. Chaos fight because they're sulking.

Actually in truth, if i chose a chaos god to follow it would be Khorne. Mindless slaughter and letting the blood flow appeal to my sinister half. And sure if the fallen believed in chaos he could be both, but since the DA are loyal it doesn't really matter. It is not the emperor who betrays but those who turned their backs on him...


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

The emporer betrayed nobody,if magnus had acctually listenend to the "no psyic tricks" rule he wouldnt have been turned on.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Think I need to read these new HH books, it sounds like the authors have been taking 'ruddy great Chainswords' to the original fluff, hehehe.

(And I mean that in a good way, never was a great deal written or truly set in stone before.)

On a side note about the Sacrificing bit, unless the books have changed the fluff, and tbh I have no idea as I haven't read them yet. The Emperor has folks being sacrificed to him daily.. to keep him 'alive' not that you can really call it that. So surely that does open up the possibility that the old Emp could be the 5th God, or is more chaotic than he seems anyways. 

Hmmm.


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## Horus' Left Elbow (Aug 1, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Yes, it was Magnus of the thousand sons and he used the warp to send a psyker message to the emperor who had forbade its usage and in turn sent Leman Russ of the space wolves to bring him back to Terra. But the emperor didn't betray Magnus, he wanted him brought alive to terra to answer in person, Horus convinced Russ to destroy prospero and kill Magnus (and Russ was plenty eager to kill his brother---was he tainted?) But the emperor had also called for night haunter to be brought to terra as well to answer for his crimes. There was no betrayal at all from the emperor unless you think that the most powerful psyker ever probaly saw the future, saw Horus turn, Sanguinus die, the imperium fall into eternal struggle and chose to ignore it, then, then maybe that could be seen as a betrayal...


I don't think Russ was tainted - he was a wolf/dog, so he does what he's told to do, loyal, "man's best friend" etc, but I suppose that still doesn't explain why he listened to Horus and ignored the Emperor's command. Beats me. Explain please GW.

:biggrin:


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Probably not but surely he would'vr thought something was wrong...i mean the number one guy says, bring him to me, we gotta talk and then number two guy says, don't trouble yourself, just kill him...come on that's a pretty severe request from Horus and yet Russ followed willingly...his own brother. I don't think Russ is that dumb so what went on?


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Horus' Left Elbow said:


> I don't think Russ was tainted - he was a wolf/dog, so he does what he's told to do, loyal, "man's best friend" etc, but I suppose that still doesn't explain why he listened to Horus and ignored the Emperor's command. Beats me. Explain please GW.
> 
> :biggrin:


only answer i can suggest is he and few other primarch had a disliking to magnus and lorgar. they said they always had a stink of sorcery about them and i think russ just jumped at the chance to end a treachirous and unhonourable foe. he hated the use of psykers and that sort of thing so just took it up on himself to do away with magnus.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Yeah but surely if he had killed magnus then gone back to the emperor (a super psyker) he would've expected a super (psychic) bitchslap...he wanted to willingly murder his brother, fellow primarch and son of the emperor. Even if he hated psykers, to do that would put his own life on the line don't you think?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Russ saw Magnus as weak and detested him just as dorn and perturabo hated each other and guilliman and alpharius. im sure if horus had asked guilliman to do the same to alpharius he would have happily obliged. unfortunately some brothers hate each other, also keep in mind that the fact the thousand sons fought back urged the wolves of fenris on a little, although i do love them as my favourite marines they CAN be a little barbaric sometimes just as the dark angels can lie through their teeth.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Yeah but surely if he had killed magnus then gone back to the emperor (a super psyker) he would've expected a super (psychic) bitchslap...he wanted to willingly murder his brother, fellow primarch and son of the emperor. Even if he hated psykers, to do that would put his own life on the line don't you think?


well the emperor gave totally controlling power to horus and seeing as horus gave the order then russ has a good excuss if the emperor started asking questions. nothing could be done at this point because the heresy was just about to become common knowledge and the emperor was stuck on his throne so russ could have just not returned to terra and waited it out


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

pseudo, you talk alot of rubbish!

1. chaos does recieve power through worship as sacrificing someone is seen as worship to them, so is killing, torturing, mutating and scheming.

2. the emperor has the biggest presence in the warp, all other warp sensitive beings know this and when have you heard anyone say they can see any of the chaos gods presence when in the warp. so this shows the power of the emperor.

3. you say none of the chaos gods lie but by definition tzeentch is the biggest liar of them all and he's proud of it. he was created by all the lies in the universe as khorne was created by all the killing, slaanesh by decedent pleasure and nurgle by all the death and despair of illness and disease

4. the emperor never made a deal with the gods, he just had enough knowledge to create powerful beings (primarchs) and had a decent plan to rule the galaxy like they wanted for themselves. they were jealous and had to go through other people to try and stop him. hell in the HH the eldar say that chaos has not fully ascended to godhood yet but the heresy will facilitate that. so your word bearers were worshipping them as gods before they were even that. hell you were worshipping a more powerful being before turning to heresy so go figure.

5. you say the emperor wanted to be a chaos god. why would he want to do that. if he wanted to be a god he just had to be a god in the material realm as he was already the most powerful being in the warp so if he was worshipped in the material realm then he would have best of both worlds. thats probably why they wanted the emperor stopped because he would have been the ultimate power if he had succeeded with the great crusade.

6. the chaos gods did unite to defeat the emperor. they all gave power to horus and when the emperor was about to give horus the psyhcic lance they retreated because they knew they would be slain.

7. you comment on angel of retributions good points and try and belittle the dark angels but they will end up being good and you'll find it was luther that was the traitor and when he was free of possession he realised his mistake and wanted forgiveness from the lion. this is much like when horus was deserted by the chaos gods in his final seconds, he realised all he had done and weeped at his wrong-doing. hell even the acuity showed even when he was still worshipping chaos he realised all he had done and would have proceeded to destroy humanity for what they had become. so you have chaos's greatest pawns realising the wrongness of chaos and repenting.

8. you seem to be quite a geek, you try and talk like you are a word bearer and come with there feeble propaganda against the emperor. wait until end of time and you and all your traitor brethrin get totally annilated by the forces of good or they realise their mistake and return to the emperors light (with will happen in the end) then all this crap you talk will be for nothing.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Unknown Primarch............go on my son!!! Chaos will fall in the end and the Imperium will see the dawn...The Dark Angels will see it so. The forces of chaos are fickle and weak, they turned on the emperor when he needed them the most. They betrayed him and for what? Eternal life; They are mearly pawns to warp powers. Opportunity to bring down the emperor and rule the galaxy; yeah, good job so far. The chaos gods give less glory than the emperor did, all will see. Repent followers of chaos, repent and save your souls (maybe).


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## uriel ventures (Aug 5, 2008)

i agree with this.

though i would say magnus was betrayed. ok he broke the no sorccoring rule the emporor made. but he did it to warn him of horus,s betrayle. so guessing after he had finished fighting against the spacewolves he decided to going horus


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## uriel ventures (Aug 5, 2008)

Brother Wulox said:


> The emporer betrayed nobody,if magnus had acctually listenend to the "no psyic tricks" rule he wouldnt have been turned on.


yeah but he did it to warn the emporor of man kind of horus and the other primarchs that have joined him have betrayed him and march to terra to kill him to take over the universe


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i must admit that i feel sorry for magnus as he had quite a good relationship with the emperor before the heresy and he was trying to warn his father about horus. then when he sided with chaos he had all his warriors turned into zombie marines and tzeentch did nothing about it, hell i think he planned it didnt he. 
maybe theres a chance that magnus can come back to the light and reep vengence on tzeentch in the end times and bring his vast knowledge of chaos to the forces of good.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Nay Magnus and the other primarchs are too far gone to ever repent with the excpetion of maybe Fulgrim if the daemon possessing him could be exorcised. as for the others angron is too damn soaked in blood, no luck there he's actually enjoying himself too much, and the others are too full of hatred as what THEY see as a wrong to them. hatred is the strongest human emotion, not love hippies. As for my primarch Perturabo and my glorious legion we had been played by horus and turned against the emperor. when we realized this on Olympia we could never had gone back, you cant judge that decission because your legions were not in that place. what we had done was too much for the emperor to forgive us so we chose the only other side. and in case you havent noticed the Iron Warriors work with no other traitor legion, not even the Black Legion. As for Dorn, he was always a pompous ass and never deserved half the trespect he got so we took the chance to humble him and his oh so mighty Imperial Fists.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

I will Never Repent to a Dark Angel whose war cry is Repent For tomorrow you die! I mean tomorrow comon? What you gotta a manicure appointment or is the 'Interrogator Chaplains' balls in the wrong tights? End of the day the bloody Emperor didnt know what the hell he was doing:no: and Horus only did what he shouldk:, lead humanity away from damnation, Chaos, for it is the only way forward. Chaos is the Start Chaos is the End, Chaos is the Question, Chaos is the Answer, Chaos is Kindness, Chaos is Benevolence, Chaos is Malevolence, Chaos is Birth, Chaos is Suffering, Chaos is Pleasure, Chaos is Death, Chaos is Denial, Chaos is Acceptance, Chaos is Worship, Chaos is Nihilism, Chaos is God, Chaos is the Universe, Chaos is Existence.

Oh and the Emperor is wrong, very wrong, he himself is Malal (What i believe) and is a just a poopy head. Chaos owns all, or you will be ours eventually 

*Infernus Repensum Diabolus Maximus Insidious Chaotica Daemonica!*:angry:
Hail Horus. Lupercal. Lupercal. Lupercal.
Hail Abaddon. Hail the Despoiler. Hail the Warmaster
Hail the Chaos Gods.
Death to the False Emperor.:threaten:
Death to the Weakling Imperium of Man.:threaten:
:victory:


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Its all happened because poor Lorgar got told off by his daddy. The only person who betrayed anyone was Lorgar. It took Horus being injured, and taken advantage of when he was at his weakest. The other Primarchs followed Horus through loyalty to the Warmaster. I think Magnus was the one who got shafted hardest. Yes, he broke the rulings from the council of Nikea(?), but he was only trying to warn Empereor of the treachery. Russ went to Prospero to bring Magnus in, under orders from the Emperor, and any military types will know that you follow yer Commanders orders. So, the Emperor betrayed no-one, imho.

>> Lionel Johnson is, however another story.........!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> I never claimed to be perfect. Im sure i show all seven sins at one time or another but that was just an example, the only one i could think of after geting off work and it was simple enough to work. But why insist i am fallen. I can't play the bad guy very well and to be on the run forever is just too much work. Besides i fight for the emperor, the non-betrayer, the beacon of humanity. Chaos fight because they're sulking.


DARK ANGELS UNITE!!!

Besides, Chaos was only able to turn the soon-to-be traitor primarchs because of their already enormous personality defects. The only reason there are any chaos primarchs is because poor little Fulgrim/Lorgar/Angron/Konrad/etc couldn't take ONE spanking from their daddy; they were pansy-ass bitches LONG before chaos ever got ahold of them.

rant over


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

To quote a recent Disturbed lyric; "How can I be free if I can't be as twisted as I want to be?" I will now expand upon this thought with my Toaster argument, which I use a lot of times in religious discussion, but at any rate...

*A Chef creates a Toaster. He pores his heart into this machine for the sole task of providing him delicous toast everytime he puts in bread. And boy howdy does this toaster do it's job quite well; warm, crisp and tasty toast every time. But during the toasters creation, the Chef, for whatever unknown reason, provides the toaster with sentiance. 

Now when the toaster first came into being, the Chef explained to the toaster why it was created; to make toast. That was it's sole purpose, to provide the Chef with toast. The toaster did so for a while but then noticed all the other appliances around the kitchen. He even noticed a flower pot. The toaster was so enamored with it that he decided he wanted to be a flower pot as well since it got to hold such beautiful flowers.

The Chef came back to his kitchen one day to find flowers in his toaster. He scolded the toaster and took the flowers out of it. The toaster got more flowers the next day. The Chef then turned the toaster on and destroyed it's flowers. The toaster became angry and refused to make toast for the chef for what he did. 

The Chef demanded to know why the toaster refused to do it's duties and threatened to destroy it for disobeying. The toaster responded thusly; "Because I choose." *

The Emporer created the Primarchs to do his works. He commanded them to perform the actions they were best at. When they performed said actions; the Emporer punished them for doing what they were told. When they refused, they were punished. 

The Chaos Gods then enter and allow the Primarchs to do whatever they want to do, so long as they serve them. So do you serve one who punishes you for doing what you were created to do? Or do you serve one who grants you all the freedoms you could dream? 

Who betrayed who?


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## Horus' Left Elbow (Aug 1, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> For a start, you don't attain godhood through worship. A Chaos God is just an amalgamation of like-minded souls (all the souls of angry people who have died join together to become Khorne, for example). Worship won't change that, the Emperor is just a desiccated corpse.


Then how do explain how Sigmar became (a) god of the Empire in Fantasy. When he started out, he was just a mortal man, but after he had disappeared to wherever he went, he was worshipped as a god by the people of the Empire. He became a god through worship.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

We aren't talking about Sigmar mate we are still on the false godhood of the False-Emperor. But you seem to confuse yourself with your thought, you see the Chaos gods are primal forces of the universe given a singular megapowerful godlike existence in the Immaterium. They are a collective consciousness of like minded souls which melded into the one Beings conscience, which later became the gods of Chaos. They want to be worshiped to keep the loyalty of their followers rock solid, for if you have no faith or worship of the one thing you strive or follow in life, you fail. and this is assured through Worship of the Gods.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

fuck sigmar, he's not part of 40k and isnt a damn primarch anyways so who cares. Revelations hit it on the nail, the primarchs who turned traitor got freedom in an oppressive regime(Imperium of Man), it just so happened that the chaos gods were willing to back them up, opportunists that they are. also they are not pussies, maybe fulgrim, i dont remember hearing how dorn and his legion were thrown at every impregnable barrier that EVERY OTHER legion couldnt get passed and shattered it but perturabo nad his Iron Warriors could, they even tore down Terra's mighty defences and when all the other legions fled in terror the Iron Warriors held their ground on each planet they had under their control and died like warriors until finally making their home in the eye after humiliating Dorn and the Fists which to me seems very cocky not pussy like. as for Angron he never was or will be a pussy he's just quite literally insane is all and i think we can all agree on that one. i cant vouch for the others but i know for certain that those two are definately NOT pussies.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> The Emporer created the Primarchs to do his works. He commanded them to perform the actions they were best at. When they performed said actions; the Emporer punished them for doing what they were told. When they refused, they were punished.
> 
> The Chaos Gods then enter and allow the Primarchs to do whatever they want to do, so long as they serve them. So do you serve one who punishes you for doing what you were created to do? Or do you serve one who grants you all the freedoms you could dream?


This would be all well and good if real, unadulterated freedom was anything more than a fanciful illusion, which it's not. In reality, we are constrained by laws _for the good of society and the safety of others_. If we were really "free," you could buy a chainsaw and cut up your neighbor and nobody would bat an eyelash.
But wait; if everyone could do whatever they want, whenever they want without consequence, what would happen to society?!


We'd all be _fucked_.



Now, the fundamental problem with that mindset is that it is mutually exclusive to itself when taken on anything more than an individual basis. Society _needs_ rules, constraints, limits, and punishments to protect it, collectively, from itself.

There were a few primarchs who realized that they were supposed to do only what they were good at, and nothing more, so that humanity would prosper. They realized that service to humanity meant they were sacrificing their individuality so that humanity would be kept safe and intact. They realized that there was more to life than simple self-fulfillment. Dorn, Guilliman, Jonson, Sanguinius, Manus, Russ (to an extent), Corax, Kahn, Vulkan, and up until a certain point, Magnus and Alpharius all realized this. They held onto the belief that humanity was worth saving (accept the last two) until they died, and their last breath's were given in service to humanity.


> To quote a recent Disturbed lyric; "How can I be free if I can't be as twisted as I want to be?" I will now expand upon this thought with my Toaster argument, which I use a lot of times in religious discussion, but at any rate...


An interesting quote. Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffery Dahmer all thought the same way; I think that is _ample_ proof as to where that line of thinking will get you.

Humanity needs rules like we need food and water. Without understand our place in society, there _is_ no society. The traitor primarchs either forgot or forsook this, and that is why we now know them as the _traitor primarchs_.

Hot damn I love a good fluff debate!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the thing is is that the primarchs were there to do battle and conquer for the imperium and never were part of a society. they never just chilled at home and went out with their mates and lived a normal life. they just saw death and destruction all the time and this would effect anyone however hardend to battle they were. they were still human and had the same human emotions and if they werent supposed to give a shit about shooting and stabbing people all the time then who can judge them when they got abit out of control. and if they were supposed to be able to judge when they are going too far then surely they can be forgiven when they finally snapped and went nuts and slaughtered people. even our own veteran soldiers snap when they have seen too much. i think all the primarchs can be forgiven for any brutality they did as they in a lose lose situation. do too much damage and get reprimanded and not do enough and still get reprimanded. even the emperor can be forgiven for failing some of his sons as he was around to teach them from young and couldnt be around to guide them when they were given such a high responsiblities. they basically got found and taken from their enviroments and thrust into a galaxy spanning war and expected to do a perfect job without question and that would be hard on anyone, especially when you discover this almighty powerful father who you want to make proud of you. 
the whole thing is a bitter sweet affair that probaly couldnt have turned out good if it tried.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> the whole thing is a bitter sweet affair that probaly couldnt have turned out good if it tried.
> Reply With Quote


Well said!

On a side note, Dorn and Guilliman (to my knowledge) never cracked. If a primarch that was born for bloodlust, slaughter, destruction, and sheer violence like angron couldn't handle said bloodlust, slaughter, destruction, and sheer violence, then making the primarchs at all was just a huge brain fart on the emperor's part.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Brain Fart. reminds me. Emperor is soo old that he farts out dust.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

LMAO! that was a good one


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

The poor traitor primarchs who wern't supposed to fear a thing were scared of a little arse slap from daddy and ran crying to the coniving gits that promised them whatever and they turned their backs on everything they stood for...and they did it because they were scared of daddy! 

In regards to an earlier post i forgot to quote but can't be arsed going back and doing it, even though its taking longer to write this out...anywhoo...Perturabo could've asked forgivesness from the emperor...the beacon of humanity, im sure would've granted it, maybe sent him on a 100 year forgiveness campaign or summat, but he would've forgiven him. All he needed to do was ask, but like an emo child he went sulking into the dark and the heresy went ahead. Ask and thou shalt recieve. Don't and spend the rest of eternity with horns growing out your head, farting thunder and firing lightning from your arse while foaming at the mouth...


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Yea all that is Evil Lionel Johnsons hobbies. He always pisses me off, same with Dark Angels their existence is anathema to the Imperial Creed of shunning traitors. But what are you going to do eh? we know the Imperium is corrupt and rotten to the bones, its crumbling and falling into its own filth it created for the Galaxy. It is weak and scattered and will eventually fail once Abaddon breaks into the throne room and steals the Emperor's Asthma Inhaler and let him asthma to death. hahahahahaha


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

If it happens it happens....but the imperium will do all in its power to stop that. And you shouldn't hate me for my views. I support the loyalists; the good guys of course im gonna hate the bad guys....but we can all hate the neutral guys together...


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Yeah, we can all hate tau with their "for the greater good" communist crap. Haha, hate to tell you but Abaddon's going to fail like the other dozen times he's tried. How many times are the chaos gods gonna let him try before they go, "You know what, one of our daemons is bound to do a better job than you" and kicks his arse out of the game. None of the primarchs were betrayed be the emperor. It was simply the fact that once they had a figurehead such as horus, who was deceived by the chaos gods, it was easy for them to rally around such a figurehead especially after the chaos gods began picking at the fallen primarchs' character flaws.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Aw gods-dammit, I completely forgot about this thread. Time to get demagogue on your sorry heretic asses.



Unknown Primarch said:


> 1. chaos does recieve power through worship as sacrificing someone is seen as worship to them, so is killing, torturing, mutating and scheming.


Yes, they receive power through sacrifice. That it's seen as worship is irrelevant. It's the sacrifice bit that they receive power from, not the worship bit.

Both killing and torturing (assuming the torture is fatal) are both forms of sacrifice - a soul is being released into the warp. An angry soul. Khorne will have that soul.

Mutating is what the Chaos Gods give as reward, it isn't worship. :/

Scheming doesn't increase any Chaos God's power, unless that scheming results in death.



Unknown Primarch said:


> 2. the emperor has the biggest presence in the warp, all other warp sensitive beings know this and when have you heard anyone say they can see any of the chaos gods presence when in the warp. so this shows the power of the emperor.


No, no he doesn't. Nobody can sense the Emperor's presence in the warp. They can sense the presence of the Astronomicon. The Astronomicon is not the Emperor.

Also - plenty of psykers feel the presence of the Chaos Gods. When they get turned into living portal's for that God's minions to enter the materium.



Unknown Primarch said:


> 3. you say none of the chaos gods lie but by definition tzeentch is the biggest liar of them all and he's proud of it. he was created by all the lies in the universe as khorne was created by all the killing, slaanesh by decedent pleasure and nurgle by all the death and despair of illness and disease


Actually, Tzeentch is created by hope, not lies. Tzeentch is the great deceiver - that doesn't mean he lies (the truth is so much better at stirring hope in the hearts of men).

And for the record - Khorne is anger and martial pride, not killing, Slaanesh is sensation and experience, not decadent pleasure, and Nurgle is stoicism and the desire to *avoid* death.



Unknown Primarch said:


> 4. the emperor never made a deal with the gods, he just had enough knowledge to create powerful beings (primarchs) and had a decent plan to rule the galaxy like they wanted for themselves. they were jealous and had to go through other people to try and stop him. hell in the HH the eldar say that chaos has not fully ascended to godhood yet but the heresy will facilitate that. so your word bearers were worshipping them as gods before they were even that. hell you were worshipping a more powerful being before turning to heresy so go figure.


Where do the Eldar say that the Chaos God's hadn't acheived godhood yet? I'd think, given that *one* of the Chaos Gods killed almost every Eldar AND personally slew almost the entire remaining pantheon of Eldar gods that they'd be the first to say just how powerful the Chaos Gods truly are!

Also - the Emperor wasn't even vaguely powerful. Horus killed him. Horus also saved the Emperor from being killed by an Ork Warlord. So not only is Horus more powerful than the Emperor, so is a random Ork!

Besides - if the Emperor was more powerful than a Chaos God capable of annihilating the entire (very extensive, at the time) Eldar empire, what would he need with the Primarches?



Unknown Primarch said:


> 5. you say the emperor wanted to be a chaos god. why would he want to do that. if he wanted to be a god he just had to be a god in the material realm as he was already the most powerful being in the warp so if he was worshipped in the material realm then he would have best of both worlds. thats probably why they wanted the emperor stopped because he would have been the ultimate power if he had succeeded with the great crusade.


He wasn't the most powerful in either realm. Not by a long shot. He was a coward and a weakling who relied on others to fight his wars. He was jealous of the Chaos Gods, tried to steal some of their power to feed his own petty ambition, and was easily slaughtered as a result.

It barely took the Chaos Gods a few hundred years to stamp him and his Imperium out - to those ageless beings, I doubt he barely even registered as an annoyance, never mind a threat!



Unknown Primarch said:


> 6. the chaos gods did unite to defeat the emperor. they all gave power to horus and when the emperor was about to give horus the psyhcic lance they retreated because they knew they would be slain.


Which is who's interpretation of the events? Of course some petty priest is going to say that the combined might of the Chaos Gods was needed to lay the Emperor low, he's hardly going to preach that the Emperor was a weakling who was killed by Horus alone, and that the master of mankind didn't even register to the Chaos God's attentions.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, what you're told is the Imperial version of events, which is very obviously false (it's either false, or the Emperor is MASSIVELY stupid on many fundamental levels for not striking the very-obviously-fallen Horus down the minute he stepped on the battle barge's bridge - choose one).



Unknown Primarch said:


> 7. you comment on angel of retributions good points and try and belittle the dark angels but they will end up being good and you'll find it was luther that was the traitor and when he was free of possession he realised his mistake and wanted forgiveness from the lion. this is much like when horus was deserted by the chaos gods in his final seconds, he realised all he had done and weeped at his wrong-doing. hell even the acuity showed even when he was still worshipping chaos he realised all he had done and would have proceeded to destroy humanity for what they had become. so you have chaos's greatest pawns realising the wrongness of chaos and repenting.


As I've already stated (as has Black Library, as has Games Workshop themselves), many many times, the events you read about are the *Imperium's interpretation of things*. Horus didn't recant. The Lion was a traitor.

This much is all very obvious to anyone with an iota of common sense.



Unknown Primarch said:


> 8. you seem to be quite a geek, you try and talk like you are a word bearer and come with there feeble propaganda against the emperor. wait until end of time and you and all your traitor brethrin get totally annilated by the forces of good or they realise their mistake and return to the emperors light (with will happen in the end) then all this crap you talk will be for nothing.


I find this very ironic. So I'm a geek for supporting chaos, but screaming 'FOR TEH EMPERARAH' like an illiterate servitor is cool, right? If I'm geekish, so are you (and I _am_ geekish - I work as a programmer, collect little toy soldiers and argue about science fiction fluff on internet forums :mrgreen.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i have answers to all your points put as i got down your list you just spouted that chaos shit again and i know this gonna go on forever so it pointless. 

one thing though if you read legion the eldar clearly state that the horus heresy will complete the chaos gods ascension and if they cant be stopped at or before the heresy then the whole galaxy is gonna be in 10-20k years of death and destruction. it is down on paper and others will be able to state what was exactly said as i havent got the book with me.

also were in the black library did it say the lion was a traitor?


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> also were in the black library did it say the lion was a traitor?


I forget who or where it was said, but the Lion was on the fence about who to fight for. He wanted to be on the winning side, so it left him open to debate whether he was going to fight for chaos or for the emperor.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeah ive heard that before put i thought they had retconned that.

i think if they havent they will have DA saving SW skin and thats the reason for the delay to earth. just my opinion, i could be totally wrong


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

IMHO, the Emperor is an intolerant, hypocritical xenophobe. That said, the chaos primarchs weren't right either (except maybe for Magnus, Angron, Perturabo, or Konrad Curze) In 40k, there are no straight-up GOOD GUYS. Then again, if you look closer at some of the "evil" armies there is good there. Khorne is a god of war, bloodlust, and death, but also of honor, bravery and skill in warfare. Nurgle is a god of pestilence and decay, but death brings about new life and he is also the god of stoicism, as another person on this thread phrased it. Slaanesh is the god of lust, excess and hedonism, but he/she/it is also the god of pleasure, and who says that pleasure is a bad thing?
Tzeentch is the god of liars and schemers, but he's also the god of change and ambition and without change or ambition you cannot have progress. Chaos is chaos, it is everything. If chaos was only evil it wouldn't be really chaotic XD There's two sides to every god, but the chaos codex really only shows you the evil side, just like the space marine codex talks about the glory of the emperor and how noble and brave space marines are. They serve a repressive, cruel and intolerant institution that runs on superstition and persecution. They serve an institution that murders its own citizens indiscriminately and looks away when people do truly bad things, if they do it in the imperium's name. Space marines are portrayed as good and Chaos marines are portrayed as evil. You can't assign labels like that. The Emperor betrayed his sons AND his sons betrayed him. That's my stand.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

What and where was the betrayal?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Having watched this thread develop, it's made me realise just how much the Emperor manipulated the Primarchs. The over-riding theme is sons-betray-father or vice versa. Well how about this.

Maybe the Emperor didn't see them as sons. I know he used his own DNA in the process of creating them, but he grew them for a purpose, just like we would create a tool to make a job easier. He made them as tools, weapons of mass destruction, and nothing more. He had specific jobs in mind and created a multi-tool with twenty different blades, so to speak.

He had to do the whole "long lost son" routine to get them to accept him, and bend them to his will. As we know this worked. But I think he underestimated them to a degree, not expecting the various reactions from the Primarchs when he withdrew to Terra and created the Administratum to run the empire carved with the blood of the space marines.

They resented this, and resentment (with a little push from the Chaos Gods) leads to fear, "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to pain."(to quote some little green guy). In the mean time the Emperor has moved on to a new pet project, leaving aside the Primarchs, like you would with a tool you no longer need.

So, maybe it wasn't a deliberate betrayal by the Emperor, but his decision to withdraw without explanation and imposing the Administratum on them looks like a serious brain fart on his behalf brought about by the fact that he never really gave a toss about them beyond what use they were to him.

That's my tuppence worth anyway.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I think there was something fundamentaly wrong with the primarchs to start with but thats the problem with putting soldiers in charge outside of war ,look at hitler and napolean as examples. I get kept in the dark and shafted by my boss on a daily basis as do most but have so far resisted the urge to destroy him and all he stands for however tempting the voices in my head telling me to may be.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> If it happens it happens....but the imperium will do all in its power to stop that. And you shouldn't hate me for my views. I support the loyalists; the good guys of course im gonna hate the bad guys....but we can all hate the neutral guys together...


I dont hate you, I respect you and Embrace you Like Chaos Embraces all souls that would be a character of a bigot. I was just assuming you realised i wan not really all that serious....I didnt know you would take it seriously, I mean we are all arguing over the validity of a non-existent Imaginary Universe.


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> So, maybe it wasn't a deliberate betrayal by the Emperor, but his decision to withdraw without explanation and imposing the Administratum on them looks like a serious brain fart on his behalf brought about by the fact that he never really gave a toss about them beyond what use they were to him.
> 
> That's my tuppence worth anyway.


His decision was made when he thought his longtime-buddy and first found son,Horus, should take over the military part. 
And Horus did! :shok: 
_Just refuse the command over a great crusade if you feel not up to_
:ireful2:
The work of the emperor was always to research ways to help humanity out
of their "age of strife" to a new start.Maybe he was so taken by his plans
that he forgot the needs of his primarchs.

The real betrayal was the attack of Horus on his brother-marines.:threaten:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think that the emperor still had the idea that they were the perfect beings he intended them to be and overlooked the flaws that wormed there way in while away from his teaching. we all know that if he chose sanguinius most primarchs would have gone along with it but He chose his favourite which is bound to cause resentment as not all the primarchs were as close or even close to the emperor than what horus was. 
so you have 20 kids vying for the fathers attention and its hard for him to be equal to them all especially when some are already fucked in the head and go on abit emo.
He did let some of them down in His actions but then so did some of the primarchs but i suppose 2 wrongs dont make a right. 
One thing is that horus was cast low and tricked into turning from the emperor when some did it by their own choice so the answer is the emperor did betray some (konrad curze,angron)but some betrayed him (lorgar, perturabo) some were betrayed by their own men into turning (fulgrim, mortarion, horus) and one was put in a position were there was no other option but to seek help from chaos (magnus)


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

poor magnus, he was so loyal to the emp too, but all he got in return was Nikea and a shaft up the ass from russ.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> I dont hate you, I respect you and Embrace you Like Chaos Embraces all souls that would be a character of a bigot. I was just assuming you realised i wan not really all that serious....I didnt know you would take it seriously, I mean we are all arguing over the validity of a non-existent Imaginary Universe.


WHAT!!!! You mean it isn't real.........shit, i've been sat here waiting for drop pods and thunder hawks to fall out of the sky for bloody ages now. Well that's just effing marvelous!:ireful2:

It was still the primarchs who turned on the emperor. They could've chose a different way but they turned to chaos and turned on him...they wanted to kill him, tear him of the throne. Kill the loyalists, humanity and burn the imperium down (and still do). He only fought them in defense...even his favourite son he only killed after depleting other options; he took it easy on him, giving him ample opportunity to stop but no emo child had to carry on! They betrayed him regardless of what slight they percieved against them they chose willingly to betray him (except Magnus who was unfortunatly pushed...probably just to make loyalist/renegade numbers equal). The traitor primarchs arn't called traitors for nothing!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

I was just kidding angel. BTW. I am sure i can convince you to join us....
'When a man is born his purpose is undefined, but ultimately he marches to chaos. Even the most honored warriors feed Khorne. The most controlled priest finds pleasure in serving his higher, thus honoring Slannesh. The most brilliant tactician pays homage to Tzeentch by his actions in intense planning. The most experienced Doctor will enhance the diseases by treating them, mutating them, thus empowering the will of Nurgle.' Chaos is evrywhere, the Word has explained it. Read the signature. The Word of Lorgar is above all texts, save perhaps the Tome of Chaos. I shall endeavor to convert the likes of you to the glory that is Chaos, may the Gods watch your soul, may they empower you, may their will be done. By the authority of the blessed Primarch of the Word Bearers, the indomitable Lorgar, I shall pray for your soul, I hereby dub thee a Novice of Chaos, you are marked Angel.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

I would sooner have my soul splintered a million times then vanquished to nothingness than turn my back on the emperor!!!! And your master Lorgar is the foremost fallen traitor cos he was the first to willingly betray our beloved emperor and actually orchastrated the fall of Horus (or at the very least authorised it). He is the greatest traitor...he broke the imperium. Damn him. For the Emperor!





P.S: I know you were joking...................maybe!


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

The same False Emperor who had lied to you and said there were no gods? The same False Emperor who said that Warp was nothing but random energies? The same False Emperor who denied glory to his many sons and crushed the devotion of my most devout Primarch? The same False Emperor who refused divinity,yet since the ascension to the Golden Throne is venerated a a god? These are all the questions I put to you, he is a false one, he seeks to destroy and mar the name of the Dark Gods. Why would you go against the Emperor's words and worship him? Does that not make you a Heretic in his eyes? Why do you pledge your soul to a ingrate atop a golden throne devoid of any worries? He lives but only by a thread or two, certainly he will die, so he is not an Immortal isn't he? My visions are clear you will join us. Your blind faith leads nowhere, follow the Word and claim glory as your own, your soul will be eternally reincarnated as an exalted spirit within the warp. Choose wisely my Friend, for the False Emperor forsook you long ago!


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> The same False Emperor who had lied to you and said there were no gods?


it needs a true emperor to call one a false


> The same False Emperor who said that Warp was nothing but random energies?


the emperor that explained that chaos is only mislead warpenergy


> The same False Emperor who denied glory to his many sons and crushed the devotion of my most devout Primarch?


he denied you what glory?
crushed your primarch because he won't be praised as a god?


> The same False Emperor who refused divinity,yet since the ascension to the Golden Throne is venerated a a god?


the same true emperor that is venerated and couldn't stop it from his throne even if he wants to.


> These are all the questions I put to you, he is a false one, he seeks to destroy and mar the name of the Dark Gods. Why would you go against the Emperor's words and worship him? Does that not make you a Heretic in his eyes? Why do you pledge your soul to a ingrate atop a golden throne devoid of any worries? He lives but only by a thread or two, certainly he will die, so he is not an Immortal isn't he? My visions are clear you will join us. Your blind faith leads nowhere, follow the Word and claim glory as your own, your soul will be eternally reincarnated as an exalted spirit within the warp. Choose wisely my Friend, for the False Emperor forsook you long ago!


Sorry,but nothing will be reincarnated from the warp that is not a demon.
Crawl back to your demon-worshipping Lorgar and his obsession to write bad
horror stories to scare little children.:taunt:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

The following is not to be taken seriously, unless you are a mentally retarded moron. If you find it offensive Fhadhq, you may retort to your own liking, I have full assurance you will make a fool of yourself. Glory to the Pantheon.



Fhadhq said:


> it needs a true emperor to call one a false


1.It needs a true emperor to call one false? what the hell? Are you stupid or high?


Fhadhq said:


> the emperor that explained that chaos is only mislead warpenergyhe denied you what glory?


2.The emperor never explained the true meaning of the Warp or the Gods within, he claimed it to be currents of random energy that must be carefully manipulated to the Imperium's end.


Fhadhq;166367crushed your primarch because he won't be praised as a god? [/QUOTE said:


> 3. Once again read the post again my Liderhossen wearing schwool freind. I never said My glory, I said my primarch's, as in Word Bearer Primarch amongst the other Chosen one's of Chaos. The emperor had chosen to bestow his favour over the few he considered his lapdogs and gun dogs to bring about his own twisted and evil views.
> 
> 
> Fhadhq said:
> ...


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> you are a mentally retarded moron.


Didnt' get the quoting done and supposed me a moron?:laugh: 



> 1.It needs a true emperor to call one false? what the hell? Are you stupid or high?


you'l not deny that the traitors tried to install horus as new emperor,thus calling the existing emperor a "false".


> lapdogs and gun dogs to bring about his own twisted and evil views.
> The emperor is not a god, he is not a saviour, he is a coward


Did i call him a god? The man,fighting from the frontline against everyone in the great crusade is a coward? What do you call you're WB-brethen then for hiding behind masses of cultists? The "dog"theme is you're poor effort to lie to
yourself about your Status as puppet or slave to Chaos.


> then the Word has simply taken a 100 billion lives over the past 10 millenia


so we shall fear self-overestimating cretins,unworthy to be called space marines?:laughlease read something non-related to Chaos when arguing over the warp.so much i appreciate that you type in what i expect from a word bearer,your utter nonsense about the emperors intentions and deny of fluffwise true use of facts is not so funny as you may think. 


> Once again we prevail, so it is written.


you have written your own history to prevail?Didnt' like reality,do you:taunt: 


> was just a bit pissed of that you would enter a message please:fuck: off


so scared when told my opinion? You can swear or call me names,it doesn't matter.we both know that you hide "down under",so i couldn't challenge you to the table to deliver the emperors vengance upon you.:ireful2:


> No Offence really, I am just a servant of Chaos


no offence? Would be interesting to see a really offensive post from you if this was not.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

##SPOILER

In Fulgrim Eldrad Uthran tells Fulgrim that the chaos gods were turning Horus with 'Lies wrapped in truth'. The most convincing lie is always one which encompasses as much truth as possible. Mainly because fools make the argument that the rest is true so why would this be a lie.

##END SPOILER

Also the chaos gods are not eternal. They are fundamentally of the same make as the Eldar gods who are mostly dead (baring a shattered Khaine, a hiding Laughing God and an as of yet unborn Eldar god of death). They were not there at the dawn of time. Slaanesh came into existence around 26k. The others reputedly came into existence at the dawn of human culture (it was the creation of these chaos gods that made the warp too turbulent for the shamans to reincarnate, forcing the creation of the Emperor).

The collapse of Eldar culture killed the Eldar gods and the collapse of chaos will kill the chaos gods. The Emperor grows stronger in the warp. The moment chaos finally wins and drives the souls of the loyal to the Emperors side will be the moment of their ultimate defeat. The Emperor will be reborn as Slaanesh was and will do to the chaos gods what they did to the Eldar pantheon. There's a reason that Tzeentch has desperately tried to stop the ultimate defeat of either the Eldar or the Imperium. The final death of the Eldar would raise their god of the dead to life. Defeating the Imperium would bring the Emperor back. It's the nature of chaos that it can never win. Only live in stalemate.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Fhadq I must say you sound pretty damn cocky about your abilities on the table and about your crumbling Imperium. Face it whether you like chaos or not whether you think you will prevail you will not. the point is moot, chaos is everlasting you cant have realspace without the warp its been said in countless books from the BL. you cant have order without chaos its the yin yang theory. BUT as of right now like someone had mentioned before how tzeentch is trying to avoid completely destroying the imperium and the eldar because te gods will have nothing to feed on and they will die, this does not mean that the chaos legions do not realize this with the exception of maybe the average frontline marine and the world eaters who do not follow angron. we will kill the emperor and all who are loyal to him and take the imperium like we should have done 10,000 years ago. your imperium is crumbling in on itself and with each black crusade cadia gets closer to falling completely. the imperium will fall and when it does all who are loyal to the emp will die and all who are not will surely turn to chaos which is a lot more people than you think. the hive workers who know nothing of chaos and when given the chance if tey had to choose between an oppressive regime (imperium) or pure freedom (chaos) they would choose chaos. we are content to know that we write our own history and that we know no matter what that the imperium will fall no matter how long it takes because after all we hae waited 10,000 years whats a couple more 100 until finally being righted? vindication is a wonderous thing once it happens. and by the way i would love to crush you on the table top both of my chaos armies have yet to lose to an imperial force, my word bearers have only lost to the necrons twice and my Apoc army my Iron Warriors Grand Company has never lost a match. i am sorry but the lapdogs of the corpse emperor would fail once again in the face of my men.


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

I'll not fall to pride like the emperors children,nor will i fail him in battle.:so_happy:

Use the warp to move your ships if you must,but don't kneel before warpentities or xenos if you're a space marine.Do you call yourself this?

It took you 10k years to wait? Not successful so long and still patient?
Bad news,you'll have to wait until the stars go out.
Theres no chance that the traitors win,we beat them in the past,the present and the future.Glory to him on terra,praised be the day when the traitors show
up to receive his vengeance.:biggrin:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

the emperor is dead the imperium is just to stupid to give up on him. and no we have not been waiting, when was the last time the imperium grew the balls enough to attack us on our own turf? they havent. everytime the chaos legions fight the imperium it is always on imperial turf, shows who has the intiative. you may say you will not fail him in battle but you have not faced a traitor legion or a marine who has been around since the heresy. i kill welps like you just by looking at them and them i eat them and shit out their O so holy bones and feed them to my pet warpbeasts. the astartes have lost sight of their heritage and in that being said you obviously have not faced a true chaos army. you cant beat chaos and thats the bottm line. i kneel to true gods, not some rotting corpse on a throne. many are the times that the glorious legions of chaos have come out of the eye and destroyed much of the imperium. it is only by your emperor's commanders sacrificing billions of souls did they stop us and that was more of a heavy toll on the imperium than it ever was on us. we can recruit our own marines thanks to bile and his works and there are no more space marine legions around in the imperium. cadia was shattered during the last black crusade and with the newest one right around the corner it will be shattered again and taken for our purposes and we will pour into the imperium and kill all who stand in our way. and where are your loyalist primarchs? they are either dead or they fled like cowards when the imperium needed them most. and you are proud to follow them? we were used by the emperor and were shunned and reprimanded by him in return for only doing what we were told by him. our primarchs still live and they did not flee when we needed them, they stood by their son's sides and fought with us as father and son should and they are still with us today. your imperium will fall, your just to ignorant to know it.


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

I love how everyone always brings up the fact that abaddon has crusaded 13 times to show that he "failed" 13 times. He punched the imperium in the face 13 times and just sat there waiting for them to hit back...but they never did.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

thank you! finally someone who is not blinded by this misguided faith!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the thing with the imperium is that they are fighting enemies on all fronts, not just from out but from in too. chaos has the imperium and the eldar to some extent as their enemies and like someone said, no one ever goes into the eye and wages war on the forces of chaos. im surprised the orks havent sent a waaaagh! into the eye as they would have a good time in there but the tau are the other side of the galaxy, nids seem to only hang around the galaxtic east too and i think the necrons wouldnt be able to handle all the warp energies in the eye so they probably dont bother. then the eldar, well who understands the eldar. 
so if the forces of the emperor didnt have so much on their plate then i think they would be able to put up a greater fight with chaos and maybe do some damage to them for once.

once the emperor decides to do something instead of sitting on the throne and when some of those lost primarchs return maybe we will see something done about chaos but in the meantime i hope everyone enjoys the 14th black crusade brought to a imperial world near you by the one and only abbadon the despoiler, may the emperor protect your lost soul


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> the emperor is dead


sorry but wrong.You want it to be,but i didn't need him to hold my hand like
many chaos-slaves unable to fight without someone doing their work.


> the imperium is just to stupid to give up on him. and no we have not been waiting, when was the last time the imperium grew the balls enough to attack us on our own turf? they havent. everytime the chaos legions fight the imperium it is always on imperial turf, shows who has the intiative.


So i have to pull you out of the warphole where you hide from me?


> you may say you will not fail him in battle but you have not faced a traitor legion or a marine who has been around since the heresy. i kill welps like you just by looking at them and them i eat them and shit out their O so holy bones and feed them to my pet warpbeasts.


How do you know I have not? Maybe there was not enough left from your traitor-buddies to tell you about their extiction?


> the astartes have lost sight of their heritage


Says the player of "paint-schemes" :laugh:
Can you field a dark apostle?Any word bearer or iron warriors character?
Your own dex won't give you this.A few words about and a dex full of renegades to replace "legionaires".Face it: your down.Your so-called heritage means nothing (to GW)! Seek the emperors mercy and maybe he grants 
you access to his codex SM.:so_happy:


> and in that being said you obviously have not faced a true chaos army. you cant beat chaos and thats the bottom line. i kneel to false gods, not my rightful "commander in chief" on a throne. many are the times that the glorious legions of chaos have come out of the eye and destroyed less of the imperium. it is only by your emperor's commanders sacrificing thousands of souls did they stop us and that was more of a acceptable toll on the imperium than it ever was on us.


Too bad,you achieved nothing.Sooner or later you will fall to our feet and pledge for forgiveness.Every xenos does more damage than you to us.


> we can recruit our own marines thanks to bile and his works and there are no more space marine legions around in the imperium.


Yes,no more legions,no loyal and IMPORTANT for YOU no traitor.
Bile is just a overestimated apothecary,he can't make new marines.
There is no proof about traitor successfully recruiting.
As said before GW replaces your losses with renegades (gullimans boys) and so you'll get smurfed.Inthe past there was 20 legions,in the future theres only
ultramarines.(yes very grim and dark then):angry:


> cadia was shattered during the last black crusade and with the newest one right around the corner it will be shattered again and taken for our purposes and we will pour into the imperium and kill all who stand in our way. and where are your loyalist primarchs? they are either dead or they fled like cowards when the imperium needed them most. and you are proud to follow them?


The imperium needed the full action of all 20 primarchs.
I don't see any traitor primarch accompanying a black crusade.
Mine did not flee.Yours were never in the midst of battle.
Hiding in the warp and never leading his traitor-warband into well-deserved
defeat is the daily work of those who betrayed their brethren.


> we were used by the emperor and were shunned and reprimanded by him in return for only doing what we were told by him.


If you had done as told by him,you wouldn't be shunned and reprimanded.
Accept your failure.:threaten:


> your imperium will fall, your just to ignorant to know it.


It may fall as every imperium falls someday,but not to you.:no:

When the xenos has overrun humanity,you will be proud to be the one that
survived hiding in his selfdigged grave.I will stand at the side of my emperor,
fighting till the last and knowing that I've chosen right.:grin:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Fhadhq said:


> we both know that you hide "down under",so i couldn't challenge you to the table to deliver the emperors vengance upon you.:ireful2:


Don't worry, with the new dex you can table ANYONE with marines :biggrin:


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Don't worry, with the new dex you can table ANYONE with marines :biggrin:


How could I worry with marines?:grin:

A few months to adapt and the dex will be back in his place on the 
power-chart because everyone wants to table marines.k:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

and how do you know he lives? have you been to terra? have you walked up to him and sked him how he was feeling? please you put blind faith before your own reasoning. and im not talking about tabletop, i dont need a Black Apostle or any special Iron Warrior to kick a space marine player's ass i use tactics that i have primed to destroying SM forces. that aside im talking about fluff buddy i dont give a rats ass about tabletop i dont need special characters to help me win. my lords do not need to walk the battlefield because they know that when the time comes we will strike at the right moment and the imperium will fall. you call that cowardice? throwing your troops at implacable walls and certain death is more of a downright dumbass tactic then awaiting the perfect moment. if you dont think so ask an imperial assassin. 
who says i hide from you? just like the imperium refuelling and arming must be done. as for the eye the traitor legions there are caged in it because the imperium didnt have the strenght to confornt us face to face like we did in the Horus Heresy. you hope by making fortress worlds and numberless fleets around the eye that you will stall the problem that has been nagging at you for ten thousand years. and even those blockades have not stopped the black crusades form breaking through and somehow lord angron and his numberless hordes of berserkers were able to break through on a measly space hulk? you reak of failure not I. just because horus could not finish the job does not mean my forces and lords were not successful. perturabo tore down terra's defences the ones built by the oh so implacable dorn and his fists. meanwhile half of your guard regiments assigned to protect terra were turned by lorgar and his legion and they fought for us deserting your side. those do not seem like defeats to me. when have the loyalists ever massacred three entire legions? never, you can call it trickery and whatever you may like but even when it was just manus, vulkan and corax horus and his brothers were playing with them read the HH books and you will find this out. those three legions were nearly destroyed to the last man and were put out of action for the nex two centuries. another victory for chaos. 
need i remind you of the iron cage? dorn having to have his arse saved by guilliman because of his pride and thousands of his sons slaughtered. say that perturabo was a coward for not killing him, he wasnt because he knew that by shattering dorn's pride and showing him how below him he was that would hurt him more than if he were just killed outright. another victory for chaos. once again guilliman being killed by fulgrim, he cannot heal in stasis people stasis means time in that area has stopped meaning guilliman cannot heal meaning he is dead. another victoriy for chaos. abbadons 13 black crusades, 13 more victories for chaos, they were not aimed at destroying the imperium they were aimed at certain objectives such as blackstone fortresses for one. dorn's death on a chaos cruiser, another victory for chaos. the turning of the people of the imperium and many space marine chapters to chaos, another victory for chaos. 
i can name more but i think you have the point, also mostly all the chaos marines you scum fight are renegades not the traitor legions unless of course you are stationed at the eye like the good mindless gaurd dogs you are. a marine with 5 centuries of experience can do nothing to one who has survived for ten thousand years. kor phaeron did not need lorgar to hold his hand did he? you contradict yourself first you say our primarchs hold our hands when we battle and the next you say they hide in the eye and do not lead us, make up your mind fool. i dont need special characters like mephiston or chaplains and librarians to kill in the name of the gods. the whole reason GW took out the special characters and rules for each legion was because they were too powerful. when i was able to field a black apostle with his own special stats and the word bearers' special rules there was no one who could even stand a chance at beating me, the endless daemons and the demagogue and desecrated crozius abilities were too damn powerful when in the hands of a competent player. as for my iron warriors they didnt have any special abilities with the exception of the servo arm, seige specialists and thats it. i didnt use those anyways and i still havent lost a match with them for the 8 years i have had them as for my word bearers it only took me two losses out the hundreds of games i played with them to redoe my tactics around our latest fucked up codex and the hundred after that i havent lost yet. as i said before chaos will win, you act as if the primarchs are not scheming or carrying out plans but they are you think they woulf just sit idle on their planets? why do you thin so many chaos cults are sprining up? so many forge worlds are suddenly degenerating into chaos until csm arrive to take over? they have a plan and have had one for thousands of years and have been carrying it out, they are just more patient then you or your pisspoor battlebrothers.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Damn, learn how to construct paragraphs, man. I stopped reading half way through because I went cross eyed.


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## MindFreaky (Jan 24, 2008)

Well this thread is actually quite pointless, the Chaos Players will always talk about the strength of our gods vs the emperor, and how the emperor favoured certain Primarchs. The ignorant loyalists will of course choose to believe that the emperor protects and all that crap, and how the Chaos Primarchs chose to betray the emperor. 

But the emperor betrayed our Primarchs. Other then scold Lorgar, he did precious little to stop his being Deified (loyalists still call him the god-emperor ffs). He used Nighthaunter as a weapon of terror, then got pissed off when he did it too well. He's a stupidly powerful being (at least according to the imperium), but Magnus realized Horus had turned and the emperor didn't. Not only did he not realize Horus was a traitor, he sends a barbaric psycho to bring Magnus to justice? He loved the fact that Imperial fists because they were so good at holding back a siege, but not the Iron Warriors for actually breaking Sieges (just as much potential for saving lives?)

Honestly *WTF?*


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## Wilder (Jun 10, 2008)

The Emperor went to work on cracking the eldar webway technology. Which he kept in complete secret aside ffrom those who needed to know. Who else but his "loyal' sons, the primarchs, to continue the Holy crusade? It was no different than in ancient or medieval times when a king might send his son to war to represent his house. Samething here. Only Horus got his mind twisted by the lies of the choas gods and thought that the Emperor was betraying them(the primarchs).


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## MindFreaky (Jan 24, 2008)

And why would his "Loyal" Sons as you put theme not need to know? Hell they're busy conquering the galaxy for you while you're trying to hop into the Webway for crying out loud? Why not warn at least warn them about the dangers out there, (which being such a SUPER being you should know about).


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Because half of them are little whiny bitches who sulk in the eye of terror or as i like to call it the crying corner...


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> and how do you know he lives?


IF he is dead,the whole "malfunctioning throne"thing would be useless.


> and im not talking about tabletop, i dont need a Black Apostle or any special Iron Warrior to kick a space marine player's ass i use tactics that i have primed to destroying SM forces. that aside im talking about fluff buddy i dont give a rats ass about tabletop i dont need special characters to help me win.


:laugh:You're not in need of SC? Not talking about tabletop?:taunt:


> who says i hide from you?


I for one? If you are really so good at 40k,you would not repeat 5 times in a
post how "undefeated" you are.


> the imperium didnt have the strenght to confront us face to face like we did in the Horus Heresy.


Lets have a look: 
Istvaan => 7 traitor legions against 3 loyalist legions.
Terra => 7 traitor legions against 3 loyalist legions.
 you really confronted us. Did you win one on one? Surely not!
The only way you can win is against the unwary or unarmed and weak.
Everytime you had to fight face to face you have lost.


> :ireful2:blah blah


Sorry,but i had to edit your illusions of chaos victorys out. 


> guilliman being killed by fulgrim,


:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Didn't you miss something here?


> a marine with 5 centuries of experience can do nothing to one who has survived for ten thousand years.


you know my experience? read your fluff and notice that even normal humans
can kill a "geriatric" traitor.Your marines are a case for archeologists.


> the whole reason GW took out the special characters and rules for each legion was because they were too powerful.


I'm relieved. a chaos player agrees his dex is/was pure cheese.


> and i still havent lost a match with them for the 8 years i have had them as for my word bearers it only took me two losses out the hundreds of games i played with them and the hundred after that i havent lost yet.


So you're Mr luck himself (and the dice always with you and against your opponent)or a dirty cheater?

If you have a point please one at:
were the traitor primarchs really betrayed by the emperor?
:biggrin:


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

MindFreaky said:


> And why would his "Loyal" Sons as you put theme not need to know? Hell they're busy conquering the galaxy for you while you're trying to hop into the Webway for crying out loud? Why not warn at least warn them about the dangers out there, (which being such a SUPER being you should know about).


The dangers of the warp were at least halfway known to Horus.
But the rationalistic way of the imperium before heresy denied any beeing a
existence out of the material plane.
So the knowledge about the warp was restricted to a few persons.
IMHO the Custodes,the sisters of silence and the emperor had some insight,
the primarchs may be not fully told or to ignorant.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

i just dont know how to argue with loyalist scum they refuse to believe chaos is the superior because it has been driven into their dogmatic minds by the emperor that chaos is weak and the corpse emperor is the only way their level of pragmatic retardation leaves me breathless by the stupidity of it all and the pointless of arguing about it to those who just refuse to believe that chaos is indeed much more powerful, and that no the black crusades were not failures they each had specific objectives that WERE achieved you just refuse to believe it, that all of them were meant to destroy the imperium it does not matter even if they were the imperium will eventually fall in upon itself i mean their conquest has just stopped no more new worlds will rise and the ones that are held are being lost leaving the imperium slowly bleeding to death and u fools just outright refuse to see the reason of it all 
The chaos gods are the only way they are all thats eternal they will survive forever the imperium is besieged on all sides and slowly being bled to death it will surely fall and u fools refuse to see the reason of it all u know not the true power of the chaos gods the legions do not sit idly in the eye they plot each world is slowly being picked apart by cults which grow in numbver every day that goes by when finally the chaos legions will come to lay claim to their worlds the imperium is dying and not even your corpse emperor can see it, this is surely inevitable and you know it to be true


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> i just dont know how to argue with loyalist scum


It would help to use this => . and that => , and maybe paragraphs :biggrin:

Also helpful: 
-to have a point,not just refusing to agree.
-bring a argument.
-use the official fluff,not your "I am teh best" selfwritten one.
:wink:

Too bad that no loyalist is scared about traitors.:grin:


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

loyalists arent scared becuz they have to much misplaced faith in the corpse emperor if only they could see the inevitable downfall of the imperium :sigh:


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## Fhadhq (Jun 12, 2008)

The inevitable fall will be not ours,we fight on and will battle every threat,as
our emperor has made us to be sword and shield of mankind.

Faith is was the traitors lacked,so they turned and we lost the brothers
we need to take what belongs to the emperor from the xenos.

Truth is,so much factions try to bring us down,I fear for you that it will be
no traitor to take the trophy. :wink:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the downfall of the imperium will be a good thing so keep trying to crush it but it wont mean the victory that chaos has been trying to get for 10k years as the downfall of the imperium will spell a new golden age for man. 
the imperium has changed for the worse since the heresy but is still able to carry on with a great deal of success, most of the imperium is not aware of the dangers of the galaxy and they still thrive, most dont hear from the imperium for hundreds of years anyway so if the imperium fell they wouldnt know about it for a very long time. 

So for the imperium to fall, the high lords, senate or even the whole of terra would need to be destroyed, all geneseed would need destroying so there is no more marines, the inquistion would need totally wiping out or anyone of them could start the order back up, something major would need to happen to the mechanicum so they didnt help they couldnt help the imperium technologically, imperial creed would need something to shake it to the core so people stopped believing or widespread knowledge that the emperor had finally died. 

Chaos has got to do more than have a few crusades at cadia to even effect the imperium. it would have to make a big push all the way to terra to cause enough damage to actually take over the imperium. 
in my opinion the legions were at the best point possible while executing the seige of terra to take over the imperium and for them to turn tail just because horus fell seems a silly time to get cold feet. its quite possible that the news of horus being killed didnt follow by the news of the emperor being fatally wounded and they thought 'shit we have backed the wrong horse here but no way is He gonna take us back' so they hightailed it out of the solar system before the DA, SW and UM got there to totally annilate them.

It also begs the question of why didnt the chaos gods totally kill the emperor when they were channeling their power through horus. yeah he may have been fighting them but then maybe they were toying with Him then the psychic lance got them very worried, they retreated and they had no one else to possess to finish the job. 

I think the reasons that the imperium hasnt done more to eradicate the traitor forces is that they had big spells of rebuilding to do after the heresy, they have aliens causing trouble for them all over the galaxy that have to be dealt with too and they had a guy like vandire who was a major cause of a lack of progression too. come to think about it, wasnt that guy a agent of chaos and seeing as he was in such a powerful position why didnt he hand humanity to chaos?

overall the imperium was at its strongest at the time of the heresy and only just beat chaos but the imperium is at its lowest right now and chaos still seems unable to kill the wounded beast who has other predators circling it too. 
chaos has no other natural enemy than mankind so should be in a position to finish it off but doesnt. so the question is why?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Who cares if the Emperor is dead? It's faith, and belief that allows the Imperium to continue in a semi-coherent manner.

The Space Marine Chapters are ever dwindling - while the forces of Chaos can only get stronger. During each of the Black Crusades, it's testament that few turn their back on the Emperor. There is no denying that some turn traitor - but then again, in many of the books from the Black Library it talks of those who were strong enough to resist the temptation placed in their hearts. Many defeat it. Some don't. Who is stronger - the man who doesn't give up on his original faith - or do as the traitor Primarchs did. Hell, you may even do as Lion El Johnson did, and sit on the fence until they know who will succeed. Shit me - virtually everyone in this thread has denounced him for it.

Why did it take 4 "Omnipotent" gods to depose of the Emperor? Whenever the Chaos Gods have led incursions, they have all been beaten more soundly than any that had the blessing of all - Doombreed, Angron, that Slaanesh Black Cursade (I forget the name of the Warlord).


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

u forget the astronomican is linked and kept running by the emperor if he died the imperium would indeed fall apart because they need that for psycic messages and shit like that every psyker in service to the imperium would either immediately know or just die... so yes the imperium would fall and why do u think that if the imperium it would open a new golden age? becuz the emp gets reborn do u know how long hed take to find? and reincarnation u dont know about your past life do u think hed be suited for the job NO! the imperium would be fucked and chaos would prevail!!!!!!
the only reason chaos hasnt won yet is that the loyalists are GW's posterboys (weaklings that they are)


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

so the emperor powers something that can be seen in most of the warp does he? and chaos call Him a weakling, thats just stupid. thats like me say the chaos gods are powerless. but the fall of the astronomican doesnt mean the end of humanity, they did ok with out for about 10k years before the emperor so why not prevail when He dies.
The only thing is if He takes ages to return and seeing as He has been idle for 10k years im sure He will get back to business pretty quickly instead of floating around the warp. 
But this brings another question, why havent the chaos gods devoured His soul by now seeing as its supposed to be reforming in the warp. its just there for the taking and i bet its a tasty one too.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> so the emperor powers something that can be seen in most of the warp does he? and chaos call Him a weakling, thats just stupid. thats like me say the chaos gods are powerless. but the fall of the astronomican doesnt mean the end of humanity, they did ok with out for about 10k years before the emperor so why not prevail when He dies.
> The only thing is if He takes ages to return and seeing as He has been idle for 10k years im sure He will get back to business pretty quickly instead of floating around the warp.
> But this brings another question, why havent the chaos gods devoured His soul by now seeing as its supposed to be reforming in the warp. its just there for the taking and i bet its a tasty one too.


do you forget how many more enemies humanity has made?!?!?!?!? plus after the emperor died there would be no faith! who else would the masses turn to? the chaos gods who accept all into their service with all to open arms :taunt: and im pretty sure everyone would feel it if the emperor died most acutely those in his service (imperium)


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the inquistion wouldnt let this become common knowledge, yeah the navy and guard and marines would know but they would all just be waiting for the return of the emperor and this would create even more faith in the masses if they ever found out it definatly wouldnt cause evryone to turn to chaos they would just wait for the saviour to return and maybe His enemies would be cautious to so they dont incur His wrath too.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

How have they 'made' enemies? They hoped to unite the Imperium, but when the Explorator fleets made contact with Xenos and Daemons, hell, even long lost people from before the Dissipation of the warp storms around Terra, they tried to make diplomacy. Some were rejected out of hand, but Oh, lets look at Erebus shall we? A Word Bearer. Who undid all that Horus had done for the Imperium.

Still, he taught a valuable lesson to those who were still loyal - nothing is friendly now.

Noisemarine - who is to say the Emperor is dead? It's not as though the Imperium knows if he's dead now, they still believe without the proof of his life. So what happens when you broadcast that fact - 

"The Emperors Dead"
"You've already tried that one"
"But no, really, he's dead"
"Lies lies lies"
"I was lying before, he's really dead now".

Either way, Chaos are/will lie about the Emperor being dead.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> How have they 'made' enemies? They hoped to unite the Imperium, but when the Explorator fleets made contact with Xenos and Daemons, hell, even long lost people from before the Dissipation of the warp storms around Terra, they tried to make diplomacy. Some were rejected out of hand, but Oh, lets look at Erebus shall we? A Word Bearer. Who undid all that Horus had done for the Imperium.
> 
> Still, he taught a valuable lesson to those who were still loyal - nothing is friendly now.


are u an idiot what do mean hasnt made any enemies? do u know how many alien races hate the imperium just as much if not more than the Chaos Marines even? Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, and many countless others. i mean sure some planets would prolly forge alliances with tau and or eldar since theyd be destroyed otherwise but then theyd be enemies to the imperium and imperium doesnt have enuf resources for another great crusade since all their forces would be spread across the galaxy after the emperors death just admit it you would be FUCKED your logic if it could be called that is just one excuse after another.

and no they did not try to be diplomatic with xenos are u kidding me? the imperium is profoundly racist and xenos was shoot on site they wanted to unite humanity and destroy all others!!! do u see any xenos living in the imperium as citizens? no they even have special organisations to destroy them even if they would be peaceful the only solution the imperium has for xenos is to destroy them, how little you know of the true nature of that which you serve.

you refuse to see that the imperium CAN and WILL be destroyed!!!!!!!! do you know what your talking about? hehe im obviously outnumbered here but i will win :biggrin:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

chaos will be destroyed one way or the other. even if the imperium falls the necrons will just comelong unhindered and build there pylons everywhere and seal of the warp for good meaning no more sustinance for chaos meaning the end. 
what effect having those pylons made will have on the eye of terror im not sure but i bet it wont be good fro anyone living in it thats for sure. so if chaos hasnt any food and any living being left on their side multiverse stay alive, they wont be for long with hungry warp entities lurking around. :scare:


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

you really think the necrons will win out in the end but you accept the imperium will die? curious sounds like your trying to steal my victory!!!! anyway the traitor legions can still fight the necs and so can everything else because if chaos you know what that means dont you more cultists YEAH!!! more traitor guard yeah !!!!! MORE TRAITOR SM DOUBLE YEAH!!!!!!!!! and possibly the mechanicum would turn to since there old master is dead :biggrin:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Noisemarine, you must be touched in the head. Read what I said - they haven't 'made' enemies. They were attacked in all respects. The Eldar attacked the Human race because they wanted to avert the coming of Chaos. The Tyranids attacked because they needed to eat. The Necrons - hell, they're Necrons, they hate life. Dark Eldar - need slaves. Tau - unlucky for them, 10 millenia of warfare against Aliens and Chaos. So yes, they were attacked on contact. Plus, they attacked Human Worlds.

What your small mind can't seem to comprehend is the fact that you don't know if he's dead or not. Faith is securing the Imperium at the moment. You think that actually finishing him off, if he is even still alive, will do anything more. The Inquisitorial Ordo's and Grand High Lords of Terra remove the notion of Chaos - the true nature of those they are fighting. it won't be too hard to actually filter out the 'fact' that the Emperor is still alive.

Do I see any Xenos living in the Empire? Well, I see Ogryns. I see Ratlings. And I'm talking about during the Reunification Crusades - particularly read up on the Megarachnids, and the SixtyThreeNineTeen campaign. How little I know? I know that the Ordo's actually remove knowledge of the enemies from all but those who need to know. And even then, most is a diluted version.

And thanks to the Unification wars, The Imperium does attack and destroy the Xenos - this being due to getting continually attacked by Greenskin, Nid, and Tau - for the sake of fightin', Eating, and Expansion. #

Noisemarine, I'm not going to bother fighting with an idiot - you'll lower me down to your level, and yes, you'll win by experience.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

are you nuts, the imperium will never loss just because GW will decree it. but if they did the necrons would harvest all living life so no new members for chaos. then its gonna be the big showdown between the chaos gods and the star gods and i would want to be the one on the star gods side. 

anyway the emperor is more powerful than he was in the time of the heresy and seeing as he totally annilateed horus and the psychic lance was powerful enough to make the chaos gods retreat from horus even when the emperor had a arm,leg and eye ripped out and his back broken this just gives you a idea of what his power will be like now. plus he doesnt even have to deal with slaanesh as thats the new eldar gods fight and maybe the laughing god can help too.
tzeentch is shitting himself at what will happen if the emperor is reborn so they will never intensionally let the golden throne be destroyed so the imperium cant fall for the good of chaos.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

ogryns and ratlings are not alien lifeforms they are variation of human genes probably mixed since theyr still human they are allowed to live the imperium kills all who are not HUMAN!!! the imperium was not attacked on site they chose to revile all aliens lifeforms and attack them they are racist because they chose to believ all xenos are destructice they couldv allied with tau they were only attacked by them because its there own damn fault the imperium's repuation seems to preceed them so knowing they would be attacked they said fuck it lets get them b4 they get us i never said he was dead i said he was in stasis and is going to eventually get destroyed on terra which would throw the imperium into chaos.

and no the emperor cannot already be dead because its official that once he dies he will be reborn do you even know that? if he was already dead that wouldv happened alread and your "golden age" wouldv already happened you call me stupid becaus i am right and you have no other way to win the argument other than proclaiming me idiot and moving on because you have lost

its gonna take someone else from chaos to disagree with me to even think twice about this as of now ill wait for that to happen anyway ppl who follow chaos are supposed to be nuts


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

for the imperium to be destroyed and chaos to enslave mankind the emperor would need to be totally annilated and seeing as the chaos gods are incapable then its not gonna happen. if they could do it then they would.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yes I do know of the Starchild Theory. So who are these people who go about saying about the day the Emperor will rise again? Thorians and the like?

And how could the Imperiums reputation proceed them? They have only fought against people who resisted? If it did preceed them, why did they retaliate, when they knew they would lose?

And again, your ignorance makes you fall - the Emperor is not in stasis.

Xenophobia is something which is hatred of anything not human, or otherwise alien to humans. Something that is not purely human, I.e, Ogryns are Xenos, regardless of human strains. 'Probably mixed' is not the same as saying they are mutations of the Human Genome. Hence, alien to human nature. Hence Xenos.

I'm going to take you on a trip to the PreHeresy Unification Crusades. Urisarach, home of the Megarachnids, was landed upon by the Blood Angels, followed by the Emperors Children, and again by the Luna Wolves. The First dozen companies were destroyed during the piecemeal landings, by the aliens. When the Wolves dropped on, they were attacked and this called for the full 6 companies and the drop of the Imperial Army into the Warzone.

Again, I point you to 6319. This time, the Marines came across people who were indoctrinated into thinking that their 'Emperor' was 'the' Emperor. After sending Sejanus to speak on friendly diplomatic terms, they were killed. Horus ordered their destruction after his 'son' was killed.

And you still haven't answered my point about Erebus, and how he managed to sour negotiations between the Interex and the Marines.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

well therd prolly be a short window of time before he was reincarnated perfect for him to be devoured by the gods and if we cant totally annilhilate the emp just gonna have to destroy golden throne and and destroy the rest of the loyalists who will not convert


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

But if you're so powerful, why haven't youu already done it? And have a look at my posts from before.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Yes I do know of the Starchild Theory. So who are these people who go about saying about the day the Emperor will rise again? Thorians and the like?
> 
> And how could the Imperiums reputation proceed them? They have only fought against people who resisted? If it did preceed them, why did they retaliate, when they knew they would lose?
> 
> ...


i know about the megarachnids and ive read all the HH books so far dont quote them to me i know what you think your talking about

sejanus was sent because they were still humans!! not xenos so therefor not destroyed on sight

and ogryns are like really big cavemen hailing from feral worlds so ther a bit farther down the evolutionary chain but still human same with ratlings

emperor is in stasis how else would he be preserved so long with his lungs ripped out? i know hes the emp but he cant do it for 10,000 years

again i said this already imperium is GW's poster boys (only reason heresy didnt prevail) so destroying would make them lose over half their fan base


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ogryns are Mutations of the Human Genome. Which you fail to grasp is ALIEN to humans.

And if they're not humans, what are the Interex? Long lost brothers, so says the Heresy. But did that stop them being Diplomatic together? No - although, as Abaddon rightly suggested, kill them. Oh - but what's that? The avatar of chaos telling someone to do something that you're accusing the Imperium of being?

And he's not in stasis, for why else would he require the souls of 10,000 psykers a year to keep him projecting the astronomicon. 

Also, Bjorn the Fellhanded was crippled similiarly to the state of the Emperor, but he is still alive - albeit in a Dreadnought. More likely to have something a bit more powerful than just a dreadnought for his Lordship, no?

Nowhere does it say the Emperor is in stasis. The Golden Throne is something which is holding the Warp Gate used by the Eldar beneath the Palace Closed, using that to be a Lighthouse for the Astronomicon.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Ogryns are Mutations of the Human Genome. Which you fail to grasp is ALIEN to humans.
> 
> And if they're not humans, what are the Interex? Long lost brothers, so says the Heresy. But did that stop them being Diplomatic together? No - although, as Abaddon rightly suggested, kill them. Oh - but what's that? The avatar of chaos telling someone to do something that you're accusing the Imperium of being?
> 
> ...


if its a mutation its a common one and even if they were the imperium does not kill mutants it shuns them. what better way than to send it suicide in the imperiums hopeless armies

why would they confine the emp to stay in one place for all eternity if not for some reason remember he had his lungs ripped out and was laying there for hours!!! kinda hard to breathe dont you think? he mustv been beyond even internment in a dreadnaught sarcofagaus which means horus mustv fucked him up pretty bad:laugh:

he needs 10,000 souls because hes a corpse sitting on a throne for 10,000 years dont you think that might drain his potency just a little bit? only thing his body actually does is harbor his soul and he couldnt be placed in somthing like a dreadnought because his nerves are prolly all rotted out!


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

You call the loyalists stupid for not seing the end of the imperium and hanging on their faith and yet every chaos player rejects the fact that the imperium can and have beat them so does that make you guys stupid too?

I can tell you that no loyalist will accept the emperor's death or the reign of chaos, as no traitor will accept the reign of the imperium or chaos' eventual defeat...poor, poor chaos...At least we loyalists have faith, faith in our emperor, our primarchs and our brothers, chaos are in it for themselves that is why they will fail. We are legion for We are many, the imperium has millions of troops (and the human race keeps on reproducing), chaos doesn't, it's only a matter of time...


And if the imperium are GW poster boys them doesn't that put chaos on the endangered species list, cos there aint no way that the poster boys will fall...Ha!


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

saying that youll win cuz your the poster boys does not prove your competence any since you cant lose for that very reason which is the only reason are not dead yet.

i honestly dont think GW will destroy any of the races so noones on the endangered species list with chaos second to last on armies they may get rid of. GW's not killing anyone off any time soon so i dont even know why anyone was arguing about who will in the first place :angry:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

How can nerves be rotted out? You have the nerves endings or you don't. Think fuse wire - they're electrical links, heading into the medulla and cerebral cortex. Plus, why should the Emperor, the staple of Mankind be herded into battle in an Armoured Sarcophagus? he retired to Terra to oversee the Administration of the Imperium. Don't you think that if he had less important things to do he'd be out in the Field, doing divine justice? He does more good as a light than as a warrior.

As long as that's there, and working, then pretty much anything can be interred. You seem to forget that despite getting "Fucked Up Pretty Bad", Horus is dead. Biggest baddet, bad guy. Dead. Nothing much can bring him back. 

Again, you go back on yourself - he's Alive, He's a Corpse, He's ALIVE!! He's a Corpse on throne!! Make up your mind love. Also, you keep telling me you're right in everything you say. I've proved you wrong about the Unification, Erebus, Intership in a Dreadnought, Faith. What makes you right about anything else?

Now just stop it - your bad spelling and punctuation is just embarrasing yourself, and ruining your argument.

Noisemarine, stop going back on yourself, for fucks sake. You made a point. You just got it backhanded to you. You then say don't bring it up about them being the mascots. Next thing will be the sentence about theworld being fictional.

You don't honestly think they'll destroy the races eh? Chaos Dwarves anyone?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

sorry for the long paragraph guys i got a little carried away when writing it.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ok im going to step out of my chaos skin here for a minute and lend some outside help to this argument. chaos is directly connected to the real universe, GW has stated this in many books and codexs and such. the chaos gods were heavily connected to the other races before humans came along making them very weak, with the exception of slaanesh and the eldar. once us humans came onto the scene for some reason i cant exlain we started feeding the chaos gods with our emotions and actions, making them directly connected to the human race. once the imperium sprang up and the great crusade and all the blood and shit that went it fed the gods even more making them stronger. BUT they were not strong enough to manifest this side of the warp or kill the emperor as stated in the HH novel Legion. it also says in Legion that if Alpharius wanted humanity to survive he would aide horus and eventually after horus killed the emperor chaos would burn itself out along with the humans thus saving the galaxy from the warp. 



so you see the gods went from being connected to the galaxy as a whole to almost 80% humans, for their power source. although they are much stronger than they once were they are pure warp beings meaning that they are tied to the warp and cannot manifest in realspace. this is why khorne isnt knocking on terra's doors along with tzeentch nurgle and slaanesh asking if the emperor can come out to play. they ARE gods they dont think in the time frame we do sa vast is their intellect a day for them might be millions of years for us so the imperium and the emp are a very big tasty morsel to them that they are trying to suck as much out of as possible without destroying it before it dissipates lie everything else. thats why chaos hasnt destroyed the imperium,as much as the gods hate to admit it they are connected to us at the moment and until they are through getting their fill if the human race were to fall to the traitor legions everyone can admit that they would destroy almost everything in their site and most of the imperium's population leaving them and a few subjects on each planet they didnt fully destroy. and after that they woudl have to deal with orks, tyranids, eldar and everything else and the human race would die out leaving the gods of the warp weak, ahich they dont want cause they are very power hungry. so they let the chaos legions believe that they will LET them destroy the imperium but they wont let them.


so there's the answer, not as a chaos player that is turning into a fanatic, but as a normal 40k fan. granted the whole reason chaos marines got fucked up the ass for a codex and space marines are now uber powerful, this is because people are drawn more to the space marines making them GW posterboys and heros. and like i said before chaos was originally a very very powerful army to play almost to good to be beat so they dumbed it down when they realized not that many were playing them also they just put out the new army daemons of chaos. still cant believe how fuced chaos players got.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> once us humans came onto the scene for some reason i cant exlain we started feeding the chaos gods with our emotions and actions, making them directly connected to the human race.


That was one thing that never sat right with me. The Gods appeared around the dawn of human civilization, fueled by our emotions. Ten thousand years ago there wasn't a whole lot of us, and we were living in mud huts thinking thunder was a god's fart, or some such. Yet we managed to spawn warp powers of insurmountable scope. What about the other races that were already out there? They had their own gods, but none of them ever reached the same level as ours. The Eldar gods were destroyed. Surely Gork and Mork should be as powerful and prominent, with countless worshippers that span the galaxy. It seems disproportienate to me.


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