# Dickishness levels



## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Me and my younger brother just had a little .... discussion about the nature of space marines. 
He argues that they are all, inherently dicks. His main argument is that it is a moderatly dickish thing to do, to hunt down and slaughter all races not strictly human. 

He says this makes every single Space Marine a massive arsehole. But no matter what I say he refuses to find any kind of plausible reason why this happens. 

Unfortunatly I find my little brother infuriating to hold a conversation with of this calibre so could I please get a few more, professional points of view. 

Personally I think that not all space marines are arseholes mainly because for one they are following orders, for another thing humanity needs the unity they bring about to survive the many trillions of horrors they face. 

But mainly because dickishness should not be determined by proffession as seemingly in my mind he is calling every single soldier in the imperium a bad person simply for having this job. Which seems a little small minded and unfair to me, but maybe I am wrong in all this.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

They are, but they aren't. They are because they are blindly following orders that are slowly destroying mankind. If they allied with, say, the Eldar and the Tau, whoalyshit, all of a sudden they are immensely more powerful. But their fear and xenophobia, taken to the extremes of hate, make humanity weaker. They are dicks, but they aren't.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Its a tad crazy to even judge space marines by our morals and ideals, if we ignore the fact that they are a fictional race in a fictional universe, they live in a time where certain things have happened to the "human" race that has shaped the ideals of that time,It makes no sense to apply our feelings on the subject when we are not living in the 41st millennium than it would to judge how the Romans conducted themselves 2000 years ago.
Also the fiction involved is skewed to give a reason for the setting of 40k so we have a never ending war with limitless enemies, the imperium is always under threat and the imperium is always persecuting xenos or its own people if they run out of aliens.

So are marines dicks? not really they have a thankless job to do and do it without question, if they stopped to question should they do it, they would be heretics and be attacked by other marines for it....so then you have to ask are the renegade marines really the evil ones? or simply the ones who question the motivations of the imperium?


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

cegorach said:


> His main argument is that it is a moderatly dickish thing to do, to hunt down and slaughter all races not strictly human.


Let's do a rundown shall we?

Chaos Demons will possess psykers and mutate them. Other humans are to be sacrificed, slaughtered, corrupted, or a combination of all three.

Chaos Marines will enslave or convert humans to Chaos.

Dark Eldar... what they are willing to do humans does not bear thinking about unless you want nightmares.

Eldar are willing to co-exist with the Imperium, but will not hesitate to sacrifice humans for the sake and safety of other eldar.

Necrons, for the most part, will slaughter any and all humans that happen to inhabit their tomb worlds. Though with the new fluff, it seems they're willing to capture some to experiment upon them in new and interestingly unspeakable ways.

Orks live for the Waaagh! With the exception of Freebooters and Blood Axes, most Orks will attack any human on sight just for a good fight.

Psykers are gateways to the Warp and the Daemons therein. Self control is all that keeps them from being possessed. They are a danger to the planet they live on. 

Tau may or may not be harmless depending. Humans can live how they want without threat of persecution, but there are rumors of sterilization and the kroot mercenaries are known to eat enemies on the battlefield.

Tyranids will kill you and eat you, not necessarily in that order.


So if your little brother feels the SM are "dicks" for hunting down xenos, what should the SM do to not be "dicks" in his eyes? And would he be okay with the consequences? I mean let's face it, with his metric, all of 40K are "dicks."


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't think they are dicks.

Space Marines are just good soldiers. They follow orders from superiors and they are good at those orders.

Fluff shows us how not all Space Marines are heartless bastards. The Salamanders strike out to me here because they are shown to really care about civilians of the imperium and their protection. They are even prepared to punch up other Marines from other chapters if they shell or kill civilians to stop enemies (Marines Malevolent from the Armageddon campaign spring to mind). Heck even Space Wolves are caring. They hate the inquisition for quarantining all Imperial Guard forces that helped stop Angrons rampage in the first war of Armageddon simply because the Inuquisition were scared that exposure to chaos had harmed them in some way.

If you ask me its the Inquisition that are complete dicks. No sympathy for anyone there.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Bitsandkits makes some good philosophical and idealogical arguments. Dictel Seijin makes good comparative arguements. But for me, the question of them being dicks is not how they treat their enemies but how they treat their brethren. A Space Marine chapter is like a large family. They respect and protect each other, they honour and fight for each other and they even joke or share good times with each other. 

I've recently begun to read the Blood Angels Omnibus and even in chapter one I could see these traits. Granted Rafen did throttle a Word Bearer, though the Word Bearer surely intended to kill Rafen too. Their's even mention of his hatred for Word Bearers coming from indoctrination ceremonies. This means they are "programmed" to hate and kill. 

As for soldiers following orders, I have but one quote. 
"Theirs not to reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die." - The Charge of the Light Brigade -


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Archon Dan said:


> Theirs but to do and die." - The Charge of the Light Brigade -


And we all know what happened to THOSE dicks


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> And we all know what happened to THOSE dicks


do we ? 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-brigade-was-a-military-success-6161884.html


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Archon Dan said:


> Bitsandkits makes some good philosophical and idealogical arguments. Dictel Seijin makes good comparative arguements. But for me, the question of them being dicks is not how they treat their enemies but how they treat their brethren. A Space Marine chapter is like a large family. They respect and protect each other, they honour and fight for each other and they even joke or share good times with each other.
> 
> I've recently begun to read the Blood Angels Omnibus and even in chapter one I could see these traits. Granted Rafen did throttle a Word Bearer, though the Word Bearer surely intended to kill Rafen too. Their's even mention of his hatred for Word Bearers coming from indoctrination ceremonies. This means they are "programmed" to hate and kill.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: Couldn't agree more. 

Space Marines exist because the galaxy is a harsh and horrible place that holds nothing but death and pain for humanity. That our guardians must be so monstrous, so inhuman, speaks more to the state of the galaxy than to any inherent dickishness. Marines are horrible, horrible beings to their enemies because that was what they were made to do, it's their entire purpose. Now it'd be easy for them to be just as awful to each other but there not, because inherently they're not dicks. Some Marines are not very nice to generic people but even then you have to look at it from their perspective. They were created to destroy utterly the enemies of mankind, they weren't created to protect us (not directly). Sometimes, innocent people have to die for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that's the nature of 40k and it's the nature of Space Marines (most of them) and the Inquisition to recognize that.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium there is only DICKS!


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Some are most definitely dicks, but not all. Immediately I recall the book Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett. In it we see the character of Priad interact with a human female (cant remember the name) and treats her with dignity and respect. He even cares for her in some way. Also in the story the Dreadnought Autolochus treats the same human with respect and kindness despite her immediate fear of him. Of course on the flip side we have several characters in the Ultramarine's books that act like complete assholes towards people.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I say it's nature vs nurture. They were raised that way, taught that they were the soldiers for humanity, killers of xenos and heretics, the Emporer's Chosen, etc. etc. They did not choose that path, but that's how they were taught to live.


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## Marius_Ruberu (Feb 15, 2012)

All heretics and xenos must burn… FOR THE EMPORER!!!


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Your brother is judging Space Marines by today's standards, which is understandable, but unless he changes his mind after you explain the 40k universe a bit more (and how fucked up humanity's state and chances of survival are), he will never understand.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks for all your valuable input here. 

I am pretty damn sure you have by combined intellect convinced him to change his mind, shame his arrogance won't permit him to admit it but I know him well enough to be able to tell when he knows he is beaten. 

Overall we cannot judge them by modern standards because the very nature of the universe has changed so drastically that the moral code has been completely reset with an almost completely new set of ethics needed to prolong humanities struggle for existance. 

But even by modern day standards, I still find many marines rather nice guys. Even with their very essence having engineered them to be ruthless, unwavering, zealous killing machines. Some still manage to maintain etiquette and respect for the common, fully inferior man under their heel. 

Thanks once again for such a brilliant response, I promise to repay you all somehow, someday. Even you LukeValantine and Marius_Ruberu. :biggrin:


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Designation P-90 said:


> Some are most definitely dicks, but not all. Immediately I recall the book Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett. In it we see the character of Priad interact with a human female (cant remember the name) and treats her with dignity and respect. He even cares for her in some way. Also in the story the Dreadnought Autolochus treats the same human with respect and kindness despite her immediate fear of him. Of course on the flip side we have several characters in the Ultramarine's books that act like complete assholes towards people.


The fact that even a Dreadnought can be respectful and kind to a human shows the Marines' greatnest. Somebody transformed into a literal machine of destruction still having positive emotions is incredible. They could all be like Bjorn the Fell-handed, pissed they aren't dead and taking vengeance on all around them. Yes, I know Bjorn has good reason; being 10000 years old justification enough.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

well i believe one of the fundamental problems is that mankind can never accept that a xenos race would put mankind's needs before its own (See: Eldar).
However, i think that one of the telling points on mankinds behaviour was the great crusade were millions of aliens were killed and genocides were commited every day, all becuase they were where humans wanted to live. I remember when, in one of the first 3 Horus heresy books (cant remember which) Horus shot a *negotiator* from another *human* civilisation merely becuase they had an STC. While some will argue that he was tainted by this point there were other space marines who were still completely untainted that stood idly by and didnt even bat an eyelid.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

It's so complicated. Marines just seem removed from mortal concerns because of their indoctrination. 

The other thing I was thinking the other day was: Marines are taken as children esentially and turned into men in a military environment, so their moral compass never had time to develop into adulthood as a mortal and therefore they still see everything as black and white with no shades of grey. Their emotions were stripped from them before they even developed beyond "I'm hungry therefore I eat". 

so they aren't good or bad, they just have serious issues! :shok:


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Following orders is never an excuse.

Though, they are engineered to be assholes, so they don't have a choice.

But assholes they are.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

AgentOrange24 said:


> Following orders is never an excuse.
> 
> Though, they are engineered to be assholes, so they don't have a choice.
> 
> But assholes they are.


They are engineered to be killing machines, not assholes. I believe that the personality of the individual has a lot more influence on their "dickishness level" than their augmentation.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

By our standards, I would say that all space marines are dicks at one point or another. I chose it's complicated because our reality and theirs are so completely different. Most soldiers today would balk at killing civilians or even killing them through inaction. Most soldiers of the Imperium would believe that it was a necessary evil, or that they were doing the moral thing, because of the world that they have to live in. 

In fact, I would go as far as to say that when the difference between our world and theirs is taken into account you will find that Space Marines are better people than most people today. Today, you'll see people being pricks because of a simple slight, or becoming disillusioned with humanity because of some inconsequential fault. Space Marines must see the best and the worst of humanity every day of their lives. They fight and die for people who may love them or hate them, may be heroes or cowards, may be loyal to the Imperium or secretly traitors. Despite this they are willing to do so again and again, without thought for themselves. They have such a great respect for humanity that it overrides their personal desires. While their actions in pursuit of expressing that respect may be called into question, ultimately they are only doing what needs to be done to protect humanity as a whole, however even in the midst of a battle, the Space Marines will find the time to help individual humans. 

If the Space Marines are assholes, than I am Mickey Mouse!


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Their attitude towards xenos aside, remember that different Chapters will have a different general character that combines genetic predispositions passed down from their primarch with the psycho-indoctrination and training that would be necessary for them to do what they do . Take the Salamanders for example.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

In the Horus Heresy books mainly the second Loken begins to question even Horus after he kills inoccent humans they have just made contact with, and even feels guilty after they pay no heed to the civilians they have just brutaly crushed under there ceramite shod boots. So really it depends on the space marine. Some have morals others follow blindly. Which in my opinion is the Chaos space marines, afterall they are the ones that killed there brothers for even saying they shouldnt turn on the emperor. Following there Primarchs just because they because the Primarchs say they should.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

oOChrisOo said:


> Some have morals others follow blindly. Which in my opinion is the Chaos space marines, afterall they are the ones that killed there brothers for even saying they shouldnt turn on the emperor. Following there Primarchs just because they because the Primarchs say they should.


So the individuals with the gall to question the Emperor are the blind followers? Odd.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah his argument does seem a tad disjointed.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> So the individuals with the gall to question the Emperor are the blind followers? Odd.


I think his point was more that they were blind followers to their traitorous Primarchs instead, but it wasn't simply their gene-father they respected; it was also a legionary honor and pride thing. Even if a Marine belonged to a treacherous Legion and he harbored secret doubts, he had to remain loyal.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Many times in fiction individual marines are shown as capable of compassion towards "mortal" humans.

As far as Xenos go, space marines spend most of their lives fighting Xenos that are happily butchering their way through entire planetary populations. More often than not the battle is in the defence of a human world that has been invaded by said Xenos.

Lets face it in the name of political correctness in the 40k universe, How far are you going to get trying to make nice with Orks, Nids, Necrons, Dark Eldar, chaos marines, Daemons etc etc? 

What would your brother have the marines do? Hold a Tea Party, invite a Blood Thirster? Perhaps they should sponsor Hug a Gene Stealer Days?

Defending planetary populations of billions from "Xenos" who want to murder, maim, eat, torture, sacrifice said human civilians is what a Space Marines life is all about. Space Marines are Humans they look after HUMAN interests, no surprise given that almost every other race out there wants nothing more than to wipe them out.

Rarely has the Imperium went after alien worlds to conquer to make way for mankind, as far as Im aware the Imperium does very little actual expansion and colonisation.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Space marines are NOT people. They stand apart from humanity as their guardians.
People are whom they are tasked to protect (however, this won't stop them sacrificing entire worlds to save an imperium).


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> do we ?
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-brigade-was-a-military-success-6161884.html


I like how they say "every school child knows", oh dear, if only they knew, most adults have no idea what it is.

We are astartes!, We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Tau and the Eldar are pussies. And Abbadon is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate -and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy universe, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!

Marneus Calgar-addressing the high lords at the outbreak of the black crusade


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

I think it's a 50/50, but I'd say they were more bastards than not. If you're under suspicion of them there's nothing down for you.

The Soul Drinkers brought this to light pretty well, I can't remember the book, but it they were fighting chaos in some place or other. I can't remember the exact story as it's been years, but there were Crimson Fists there fighting chaos too, and no matter what, the CF were attacking the SD on sight and hunting them down. I can't rememmber the ins and outs, but it portrayed the CF as total bastards.

The same can safely be said for tonnes of instances in the Heresy books of them slaughetering races (most books) because they immediately wouldn't submit, or destroying cities to prove a point (the one the Word Bearers set up to worship the big E). There can be no denying, they are bastards.

That said, in a universe where aliens and chaos are trying to pull the rug from under their feet with all manner of trickery, it's no wonder. You'd need soldiers of that calibre to fight for the Imperium and protect it's people from every other bugger that wants to kill them. They follow orders to the letter and get the job done.

I think they are bastards, but they need to be.

But then there's always exceptions to the rules. Redmaw going against orders to evacuate people from a planet as Tyranids attack and countless other Marines sticking their necks out to protect the people the rest of the Imperium would just leave to their fate.

Has to be said though, in the 40k universe, there's no goodies and baddies, just varying degrees of bastard.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

Im not sure if theyre Dicks, but they definitely arent Pussies. Some may be assholes, and some may be dicks, but I think to generalise about them all being dicks would not be correct, as some are clearly assholes.

If I were to generalise then I would say that no Marines are pussies.

I think the biggest example of dickishness and assholery is the great crusade. Killing Humans who would not bow down to the Emperor, even if those Humans were not evil, corrupted or aggressive, just because the Emperor had decreed that all Humans should come back into the fold. I mean Space marines killing un-prepared humans is like giants killing midgets, just crap, and unfair. A paradox of serving/protecting/re-building the human empire.

I also think the best example of awesomeness is the great crusade. Killing anyone who stood in their way, with the fall back statement "FOR THE EMPEROR", slapping midgets, and bodyslamming anyone who questioned them. Just awesome.

So its complicated I think.


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