# First Heretic new Primarch Questions. (Warning: This may be a spoiler)



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

OK in reading First Heretic there is a reveal of some of the primarchs as they land on their respected planets. Going through the paragraphs you can make comparisons and come to conclusions on which ones are shown.

It seems to me that the pods are shown in number order, from the traitor side.

That is except the first, which is clearly the Lion on Caliban.

The Lion's motives during the Heresy have been suspect for a while. Could this be painting the idea of him not truly being a loyal Primarch?

What are the thoughts of the other Heretics? Got other ideas? Think it mentions other Primarchs?


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

I think ADB only included the Lion because he knows that question will never be answered, or at least for a long time, and just wanted to stoke the fires of fan debates.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It definitely adds more current fluff from existing sources trying to make claim at such a notion. But yeah, pretty interesting. I do think they will do something that will make the Lion an unusual character compared to the other primarchs. But as far as being a straight up traitor for chaos I think not.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

Yeah, its already been made clear (or at least from my pov) that he's just sitting on the fence waiting to see who will be the definite winner, maybe chaos did not claim him as completely as the others. BL will probably maintain that throughout the rest of the series.


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## X FiftY 1ne (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm wondering if Chaos had this planned all along (or at least after they learned of the Emperor backing out of the pact). Ingethel makes reference that Chaos started seeding worlds in the past with the taint of Chaos (how they went about this I don't know). I'm wondering since the pact between the Emperor and Chaos was not honored, Chaos seeded these Primarchs home planets, already laying the base for the Heresy; hoping to tear the kingdom of man in half and damn them to eternal war. Which leads me to my next question...

In the Rulebook on page 103 under *Empire Among the Stars* third paragraph, last few sentences. It reads "Warp space act as dimensional vortices, ensnaring spacecraft and tearing them apart with impossible forces. In others, time flows disjointedly with the material realm. Days become nanoseconds, minutes stretch into years, *and the future spirals into the past.*

Does this mean the scene where Argel'Tal and his marines cut the Geller Field cables, that they actually are the cause of the "incident" in which it's referred to when Chaos opens up a warp storm and scatters the Primarchs? Not just scattering the Primarchs, but placing the ones they believed would turn to Chaos seeded planets?

This daemon shows these marines a vision, but does she? Is time so bent that maybe they really are there? Ingethel keeps telling them not to disturb the workers or the Emperor will know they're there. That seems odd to me if it's only suppose to be a vision. Honestly, the Word Bearers are being deceived. Just how Horus was deceived. Yes, Horus was shown "_A_" future not "_THE_" future. Both Argel'Tal and Horus still had choice. A choice to determine any future. There would be no Heresy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In regards to the Primarchs pod scene:



ADB said:


> In regards to ther Lions pod alongside the other traitor pods in the first heretic:
> 
> I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.
> 
> ...


It seems that the Chaos Gods viewed the Lion as potential for corruption, especially from the beginning. But it would seem on the surface of things that this didn't occur. But who knows, we havn't a clue what the Lion was upto throughout the Age of Darkness yet, except engage the Night Lords to some extent.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I thought the one on the mountain in snow was Dorn.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I thought the one on the mountain in snow was Dorn.


Nope, that was Perturabo.

To quote Aaron again:



ADB said:


> For kicks, here's the order the pods come down:
> 
> The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place.
> 
> Basically, the Traitor Primarchs - in Legion order - and the Lion as well, perhaps reflecting the lore that he may or may not have been wavering in his loyalties, at least in the eyes of the Chaos Gods.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

ah ok. Kind of funny both Dorn and Perturabo share a similiar beginning.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

well the fact that Lion'el was originally planned to be corrupted and one of the traitor primarchs but turned out to act in a neutral state is pretty cool and i seem to like the character of Lion'el Johnson even more now 

I was wondering as Lion'el was strong enough to resist the influence of Chaos and the gods would not all the traitor primarchs have been strong enough to stay loyal (Such as Alpharius/Omegon who are hinted to be loyal but turn traitor under the persuasion that turning traitor would be for the greater good), so it seems that the Emperors actions are more significant reasons for primarchs turning traitor, for instance disgracing Lorgar by telling him he was wrong in having faith, by condeming Magnus wrong because of his warning, leaving the crusade and refusing to tell Horus of his future plans, so the Emperor's leave from the crusade and his and his lack of guidance for his sons could be a more significant reason for why the heresy happend, in my opinion 

Im not sure if anybody else picked up on this, but i count that the visions of the pods falling sum up to 10, half the number of primarchs, so i wasnt sure whether these were the list of all the primarchs that turned traitor, hinting that the two missing primarchs did not turn traitor, or whether this was a list of the primarchs that were originally supposed to turn traitor..

also two last questions if someon could answer for me 
im unsure of where alpharius/omegon landed, but it hints that it could be some kind of ship, if so how could they be corrupted by chaos
and second why did the chaos gods not attempt to corrupt all of the primarchs by sending them to chaos corrupted worlds or other situations...?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm assuming Lion'el was destined to fall after he took the fort of those Lupus fellows, he kind of did of course as the next Cypher was one of them.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

@ ferrus mannus. to your question of why didnt they try and turn all primarchs. my personal guess and it may be far off point but i think there is a possiblity of it be right is that this so called pact between the emperor and chaos could be that they split the forces down the middle and have a massive war and see who can win and well whoever wins gets the galaxy if you get my meaning. i think the emperor then went about trying to use the webway to try and limit the influence of chaos thus having a advantage, they caught wind of this scheme and devised their own. now being they live in a realm with no time then they could have witnessed it already and where all along trying to scheme to get the advantage themselves so seeded certain planets with chaos and when the primarch landed they got influenced or rebeled against said taint and the rest is history.

maybe chaos cant kill the emperor by there own means directly and he cant end them directly so while playing this game they both decide on a covert plan to rid themselves of each other i.e the emperor trying to stop worship and thus weakening chaos and chaos combining together, placing their power in a vessel (horus) and using him to defeat the emperor that way.

now i wont go into too much more detail as to the acuity vision but that could just be xeno tricks, chaos influenced or the truth. but im sure the emperor had certain things to counter chaos schemes as if some lowly eldar and other xeno can see the future im sure the emperor could have also. this train of thought could create a series of its own but ill leave it at that for the time being.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

The major thing I took out of the First Heretic are on page 296 in the chat between Argal Tal, Dagotal and Xaphen:

"But the 11th Legion-"
"Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the 2nd. I'm not saying I don't feel temptation creeping over me brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod and we'd unwrite a shameful future"
"And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers"
... "Those are just rumours"
"... The 13th definitely swelled to eclipse all the other legions around the time the 2nd and 11th were forgotten by Imperial archives."

All I can say to this is wow :shok: This raises so many questions for me:
For the Ultras to have absorbed the 2nd and 11th Legions marines the Emperor must have approved it, as must Guilliman. This raises a question of what was their crime that was so bad that their entire Legions were dissolved and removed from the archives, but was not so bad that the Emperor and the Primarch who most liked to play by the rules Guilliman, was able to absorb the marines from the 2 Legions into his own? This would indicate that the 2nd and 11th geneseed was not corrupted as Guilliman would not have accepted them. Therefore I theorise that the 2nd and 11th Legions weren't corrupted by Aliens or Chaos as neither the Emperor nor Guilliman equally would have accepted such marines.

I wonder if the rumours about the Ultras is what made the Word Bearers dislike them amongst other reasons considering they saw the 2nd and 11th Legions actions as shameful and yet the Ultras absorbed these "shamed" marines and yet the Emperor still lauded their actions while shaming them and Lorgar?

Finally on this bit (that I can currently think of, more may yet come :biggrin, since 2/3rd of the current space marine geneseed comes from the Ultras, if they did absorb the 2nd and 11th Legions marines with their geneseed, some of the current Chapters may in fact be descended from the 2nd or 11th Legions?

The other bit I find fascinating is on page 163 where Lorgar and Magnus discuss the lost Primarchs and Magnus calls them the lost and the purged. This can either be taken to mean the 2nd Legion was lost (in some way) while the 11th were purged. Alternatively they were both lost and purged in some way. Also the Emperor talked to the other Primarchs about what to do about the Word Bearers and Horus, Magnus and Russ supported Lorgar and his Legion, with Russ saying he'd lost 2 brothers and had no desire to lose a third (interesting considering his later attitude towards Magnus and his Legion).

On a side note, since Russ and the SW are considered to be the Anti-Legion Legion, I wonder if they did the purging of the 2nd and 11th Legions? :grin:

From this I interpret this as even Russ saw what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions as sad rather than something to be rejoiced on and he didn't want to see it repeated. This is supported by Dorn and Malcadors attitude towards the Traitor Primarchs statues in the Lightning Tower where Malcador asks Dorn if he'd tear them down (which is what is hinted happened to the 2nd and 11th Primarchs statues) rather than just shrouded. Why did the Emperor simply laugh when tearing down the traitor Primarchs statues was suggested in comparison to the 2nd and 11th statues. It gets stranger and stranger!!

Sorry this is a long post (my first in a while) but reading the book has had my head buzzing!!:biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

If it is true, yes it would have far-reaching ramifications.

However it's more likely that it's merely a rumour.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?





Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Naw, I'm genuinely surprised people are taking that as fact. It seems possible that it happened, but I don't really think it's likely. When one of them says _"What? You're all thinking it..."_ it doesn't exactly feel like stone cold fact to me. They're just guessing and spouting rumour.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I do agree they're all spouting rumour but the info about the size of the Ultras increasing around the time of the 2nd and 11th being dissolved seems to be stated as something the person knows rather than simply rumour.

I agree the rest is opinion but it can be made to fit if I close my eyes and wish hard enough! :biggrin: *closes eyes*

I especially like the thought that the Word Bearers hate the Ultras for absorbing the shamed marines but still being lauded by the Emperor while they're ridiculed by him.


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