# Why are CSM novels so much cooler than SM?



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

I've read all the UM/BA/SW/SD SM novels and also the NL/WB + Storm of Iron CSM novels. I enjoyed the CSM books like 3x as much as the SM ones. Why is that? Is it just the bad guys are so much cooler than good guys scenario? Or is it more to do with the authors who write the CSM series vs SM series authors?

With a Black Legion and Ahriman series on the way next year, it's left me little desire to read much goody two shoes SM novels at all.

Thoughts?


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Brother Subtle said:


> ...the bad guys are so much cooler than good guys...


This, pretty much. There's a fascination with seeing what they'll do next, the dark-side mad crazy shit that everyone fantasises about doing on occasion to their boss, neighbour or whoever but holds off from doing because they're not actually psychotic 7-foot-tall killing machines...and Chaos Marines get to do it _all_, all the time. They have no constraints on their behaviour - moral or otherwise - save those they impose themselves, and that's always compelling to sane people from an 'outside looking in' perspective; that's why Hannibal Lecter is remembered far more vivdly than Clarice Starling.

Plus, we have _way_ better music.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Brother Subtle said:


> I enjoyed the CSM books like 3x as much as the SM ones.


I think that is your answer right there. You read some books you enjoyed. I on the other hand don't like the CSM ones. I guess it just depends on what floats your boat.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It comes down to the author and the quality of the book. If writing villains inherently led to more interesting characters and plots, don't you think writers would have figured that out a much longer time ago?

Proof of that? Let's take Aaron Dembski-Bowden - his "Helsreach" is every bit as good as his "Night Lords" trilogy (at any rate, I doubt anyone would say they're not at least _comparable_ in quality). By contrast, look at some of the complaints about the Ultramarine novels and the Salamanders novels... Uriel is seen by too many as a "Mary Sue" of sorts, and some of the dynamics Kyme featured seemed contrived - Tsu'Gan coming off pointlessly antagonistic, for instance.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I do agree on some points, loyalists can be as intesting, but it does depend on the writing. I'm reading siege if castielax at the moment which is a chaos space marine book and defiantly one of the best I have read.

One thing that can annoy me with chaos books, is just how typically everyone is just an asshole. Very rairly will members of the same war band have any friends in at all in the legion. I get that they think humans are scum not worth their time, but how many of their own slaves they kill for no apparent reason comes off as mental.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

raider1987 said:


> ... typically everyone is just an asshole. ...slaves they kill for no apparent reason comes off as mental.


I think those are the very essence of Chaos tho' aren't they?

Being nice just wouldn't quite fit I think


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

And that's where characterization comes into play. If the author largely defines a protagonist as a Chaos Space Marine on the basis of his sadism, then obviously you're in for a weak story. Every character should have motivations and goals that the reader might not share... but should nonetheless recognize as plausible.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

In short; the authors have to come up with "Why is being bad so cool?". 

Whether it's leaving your ciggy unstubbed in the ash tray, or not flushing the toilet; simply just breaking the rules has always been cool; not tucking in your shirt, or wearing your tie. Hell, you can pull girls by "being bad"; shows you're a bit devil may care.

However, later on in life, when the "rebel" in you gets replaced by the actual worries of life ("Oh shit I have a home/wife/kid/mistress to pay for"); you enjoy it by other ways; by watching other people be bad; it explains why people like Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, etc.

Hell, even in the goodie two shoes Superheroes, who seriously prefers Superman or Captain America over Ironman, Thor (when he's doing a "whatever the fuck he wants to"), or Batman?

James Bond? He might be suave, and sophisticated, and be doing "good", but who liked the Scenes when he's "being bond" - driving fast, and smashing in the backdoors of faster women, kicking fifty shades of shit out of other people?

It's not just being bad, but the actual doing of bad; however, sadly a lot of writers (including ADB, who personally I believe deserves the title of finest writer of GW Fiction to date), tend to fall into the trap of identifying "bad" as in acting "bad" and doing "bad" things; as in, you can only be bad while doing bad things.

Good people who are "bad" - Space Marines often have "reasons" as to why they're "bad" - It's X implant, or Y Item, or Z behavioural flaw inherent; i.e. Flesh Tearers, or Soul Drinkers. Others; Salamanders and Ultramarines often simply come across as being "wet" for want of another word.

The few truly "bad" Space Marines who are still loyal, in my opinion are the ones who are the best written in this regard; I'd love to read about Minotaurs, Executioners, Space Sharks, or Mantis Warriors (not including Goto, that short was fucking horrendous, when they were "just" Samurai in Space); they did bad stuff, and it wasn't "explained away" as "oh it was X".

When I look at the CSM books; for the most part, I think Scooby Doo villains; either they're hiding under the pretence of being Friends (my one complaint about Know No Fear), or are generally OTT evil villains; stroking the white cat, etc, or coming out with shitty one liners - "No Mr Peturabo, I don't expect you to talk; I expect you to die" was the one line that McNeil missed to turn his Fulgrim into a complete retard.

As for "who is cool" - the Night Lords could equally be applied to the "good" space marines; storm of iron I believe is highly over-exaggerated and bears up poorly compared to more modern BL library; but even so, there's very little that comes across as "chaos is cool" that couldn't actually be applied to loyalist marines again.

Hell; look at Sevatar in Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows; an equally awesome character; yet he didn't "become" that way by being evil, he always was a) a bit of a cunt, and b) part of a legion which became evil, but the Night Lords were good; in the same way that a nihilist thinking of "to save the human populace we must destroy the world", but they are on the whole good. I'd be interested to see why they joined Chaos rather than striking out on their own.

Space Wolves again; people love to read and quote the whole "Executioner" line; why? Because they're a "fuck you" to the rules of the Imperium. I always felt that line out of place; other Legions were equally, if not more capable of being "Executioners", and although other Legions obeyed Imperial Tenets they still did pretty bad shit; i.e genocide, and racial cleansing; it's just that the Space Wolves and other legions like them (World Eaters, Night Lords, Sons of Horus etc) who revel in such a reputation are really favourites.

It's the same way people look to life outside; who else as a kid stole from the pick and mix, or slipped a sneaky top shelf mag into their bag? Or in the military; we get to break a few rules here and there, but Special Forces? Everyone loves them, they get to do shit no-one else is allowed to do. They get to grow beards, and long hair man. How sick is that?

In short; breaking rules = cool, following rules = not cool. Who hated Azkaellon in Fear to Tread? I know I did; yet he followed the rules to the letter and didn't want to split from it. That's one of the Legion Praetors; same for Corswain; he's similar in attitude, but comes across as dull. Compare that Sevatar or Ahriman, or Kharn, or Abaddon. However, throw it the other way around; Loken, and Tarvitz are well liked; why? Because they broke the rules of being part of the Chaos legions. Same for Ahriman. Why? Because they made a one finger salute to the rules there were expected to abide by.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

With the loyalist stories, pretty much 99% of them follow the exact same formula. Goody two shoes Marine(s) faces huge, unbeatable enemy. Lots of his friends die (sadface), but he comes out on top, beats the bad things, and good(ish) is triumphant. I got tired of reading about loyalists (at least 40K, still not sick of 30K) fairly soon after getting into the books.

As others have said, Chaos Marine novels have the constant "what sick crap is going to come up next." It's much less cut and dry, much less formulaic, and much more can happen outside of the "norm."

Granted, I always wanted Cobra to win when playing G.I. Joes as a kid, so my perception is likely very biased anyways towards the bad guys


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## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

One of the things I love about the 40K portrayal of CSMs (the Traitor Legions, anyway) is that they're walking history. This may be particular to ADB's Night Lords, though I've seen touches of it in other books, but their commitment to evil comes from the fact that they're convinced they were right. Not all of them, certainly, but enough that there's a strong current of completely amoral actions driven by a sense of moral conviction.

The 40k SM Chapters just don't have that. Their convictions are only as old as their chapters and most of their origin stories are unknown or speculative. None of them ever saw the Emperor, met the Primarchs, or have any real idea what the details of the conflict are. They're just following roles which, while necessary to their function as Space Marines, come across as a bit cardboard. They're warrior heros, but that's all they'll ever be.

The CSMs have history, remembered grievances, and a sense of how much the Imperium has lost over the past 10,000 years. It adds depth to their narrative.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Because Chaos Space Marines are cooler. It's that simple.

Firstly they are indeed "walking history." The majority of them are ten thousand years old by galactic standards, and only one loyalist is that old anymore and that is only because he doesn't fight much anymore. But the Traitor marines lived through all the stories and myths the Imperium perpetrates, they walked in an era of Gods and Daemons and that definitely works in their favour. It lends them an aura of age, and in 40k age tends to equal power and superiority over the newer things that are generally inferior to what came before.

Secondly they are evil, and that is usually much more interesting to read about than good. Motivation is a part of that, the Chaos Space Marines generally don't consider themselves the bad guys. They believe that they are right and the Imperium is wrong, that Chaos is the truth and the Imperial Creed is a lie and though some of their motivations have changed it is still ultimately all about "Death to the False Emperor!" The things that they do in the name of Chaos are also interesting to read about because it's interesting to see what they see and think when they order/do these things, do they revel in it? Regard it as a necessary evil? Ignore it as irrelevant? Villains tend to come in much more shades than heroes and that makes them funner to read because there are only so many types of hero you can read about, but there are so many many more types of villains to read about.

Third,










Show me a loyalist who looks cooler than that! :so_happy:


LotN


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Proof of that? Let's take Aaron Dembski-Bowden - his "Helsreach" is every bit as good as his "Night Lords" trilogy


Have to disagree there. His CSM stuff is markedly superior. 

His loyalist stuff is above average but nowhere near as impressive. His Crimson Fists, Black Templars, and GKs were meh (IMO of course)...only his Flesh Tearers approach the quality of his NL


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## Paceyjg (May 12, 2011)

Murder, betrayal, daemonic possession

Vs

Praying, cleaning guns, brotherly love.

No brainer really :grin:


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

This is starting to become annoying but I agree with Monty ADB does not have the same heart for loyalists as for CSM, not in Hellsreach and not in the emperor's gift, but that is ok.
Examples: The genesis chapter marine and his monosynaptic rambling on how he is the bane of (kings) of traitors,...
Blood angels squad getting killed because a NL hit a plasma coil, WTF 

actually the reason for that has to do with the average profile of the 40K reader,
face it, YOU are all geeks (not me), with probably an on average beta profile, we got bullied at school, were crap at sports and girls were/are allergic to us, we did not like this, 40 K gives us an escape, say a parallel universe where we escape from this, driven by 2 facts, SM are created by genetic engineering, so to say in such a universe WE geeks could become SM making it mentally acceptable to project ones gestalt on the concept of a SM
psykers, I think the average IQ of a 40 K reader is above 100, we know this, one of the reasons why a mental projection on a psyker is acceptable, in the 40 K universe people like us could be librarians kicking ass, making us connect with this universe (wizzards in a fantasy setting). 
This is the first step in understanding why we like SM, now why CSM, that is a simple step explained by: a dirty mind is a joy forever or like weird al jankovich would say, spent my nights with bubble wrap. Our minds are a little deformed to somewhat more depraved thoughts (I do not know why, but all of my collegues are) making us affiliate more with CSM, that beying said, from a punk (like in the popular 70-ties movement) perspective I am a loyalist (BA) fan, this becomes stronger and stronger the more they are getting their arses kicked, which happens a lot if not all of the time (I also count the Pyreus victories) in recent 40 K novels,
anyhow these are my 2 cents on why you depraved souls like CSM, deep inside those dark pitts you call your soul you know I am right (except the Americans, they have no soul )


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

This is starting to become annoying but I agree with Monty ADB does not have the same heart for loyalists as for CSM, not in Hellsreach and not in the emperor's gift, but that is ok.
Examples: The genesis chapter marine and his monosynaptic rambling on how he is the bane of (kings) of traitors,...
Blood angels squad getting killed because a NL hit a plasma coil, WTF 

actually the reason for that has to do with the average profile of the 40K reader,
face it, YOU are all geeks (not me), with probably an on average beta profile, we got bullied at school, were crap at sports and girls were/are allergic to us, we did not like this, 40 K gives us an escape, say a parallel universe where we escape from this, driven by 2 facts, SM are created by genetic engineering, so to say in such a universe WE geeks could become SM making it mentally acceptable to project ones gestalt on the concept of a SM
psykers, I think the average IQ of a 40 K reader is above 100, we know this, one of the reasons why a mental projection on a psyker is acceptable, in the 40 K universe people like us could be librarians kicking ass, making us connect with this universe (wizzards in a fantasy setting). 
This is the first step in understanding why we like SM, now why CSM, that is a simple step explained by: a dirty mind is a joy forever or like weird al jankovich would say, spent my nights with bubble wrap. Our minds are a little deformed to somewhat more depraved thoughts (I do not know why, but all of my collegues are) making us affiliate more with CSM, that beying said, from a punk (like in the popular 70-ties movement) perspective I am a loyalist (BA) fan, this becomes stronger and stronger the more they are getting their arses kicked, which happens a lot if not all of the time (I also count the Pyreus victories) in recent 40 K novels,
anyhow these are my 2 cents on why you depraved souls like CSM, deep inside those dark pitts you call your soul you know I am right (except the Americans, they have no soul )


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

piemelke said:


> Examples: The genesis chapter marine and his monosynaptic rambling on how he is the bane of (kings) of traitors


I remember reading that part. The Genesis champion smashes one of the NL to the ground with his thunder hammer...miraculously (surprise surprise!) the NL doesn't die and neither does the Genesis dude hit the NL again to finish him off

If I recall correctly, the Genesis dude only manages to inflict one casualty: Xarl, who dies of his wounds...but only after disemboweling and decapitating the Genesis guy (who continues his silly monologue as he is being killed) 



> Blood angels squad getting killed because a NL hit a plasma coil, WTF


Yes, and the 10,000 year old BA dreadnought failing yet again against Malcharion

...so essentially, the BA lose their equivalent of Bjorn, whereas Malcharion is repaired 

ADB writes well but I groan whenever he handles loyalists (as the antagonists of his NL)


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

piemelke said:


> Actually the reason for that has to do with the average profile of the 40K reader,
> face it, YOU are all geeks (not me), with probably an on average beta profile, we got bullied at school, were crap at sports and girls were/are allergic to us, we did not like this, 40 K gives us an escape, say a parallel universe where we escape from this, driven by 2 facts, SM are created by genetic engineering, so to say in such a universe WE geeks could become SM making it mentally acceptable to project ones gestalt on the concept of a SM
> psykers, I think the average IQ of a 40 K reader is above 100, we know this, one of the reasons why a mental projection on a psyker is acceptable, in the 40 K universe people like us could be librarians kicking ass, making us connect with this universe (wizzards in a fantasy setting).
> This is the first step in understanding why we like SM, now why CSM, that is a simple step explained by: a dirty mind is a joy forever or like weird al jankovich would say, spent my nights with bubble wrap. Our minds are a little deformed to somewhat more depraved thoughts (I do not know why, but all of my collegues are) making us affiliate more with CSM, that beying said, from a punk (like in the popular 70-ties movement) perspective I am a loyalist (BA) fan, this becomes stronger and stronger the more they are getting their arses kicked, which happens a lot if not all of the time (I also count the Pyreus victories) in recent 40 K novels,
> anyhow these are my 2 cents on why you depraved souls like CSM, deep inside those dark pitts you call your soul you know I am right (except the Americans, they have no soul )


Ok I think what you have just put is insulting to 40k fans.

I am most certainly not a 40k fan because I desire to escape from real life, which by the way is not like you describe. I am a 40k fan because the 40k universe is a fascinating one filled with stories where the heroes are defeated by evil, where the heroes are just as cruel but for different reasons, where there are a million shades of grey but the universe believes there is only black and white, and admittedly yes because it's a badass universe but it is that for much more reasons than Space Marines killing each other.

I don't read 40k because I want to escape into that world, why the hell would you want to? With our 21st century attitudes we'd be burned as heretics in a second. I read 40k because I find the stories, characters, battles and everything else to be interesting and because it's well written literature. And I like Chaos Space Marines more than loyalists because they are more interesting to me as characters, why they do the things they do and how they view them are almost never what you expect and it's always interesting to see behind the eyes of a famous CSM like Ahriman or Abaddon as we'll get to next year and see how they view the events that until now we've only ever seen from the view of the Imperium.

You say that being a geek is a bad thing, or at least your post reads like it. I am a geek and proud of it, because I love sci-fi and fantasy and other such things. Why should I be ashamed of that?


LotN


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> SPOILERS!


Dude, spoiler tags, I just started that series and didn't know any of that.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

piemelke said:


> actually the reason for that has to do with the average profile of the 40K reader,
> face it, YOU are all geeks (not me), with probably an on average beta profile, we got bullied at school, were crap at sports and girls were/are allergic to us, we did not like this,


Hmmm... Hate to burst your bubble. Without trying to sound up myself, rather to help illustrate the point. I played footy all through high school, was in the 'popular' group, voted school captain, was never picked on and never had a problem with the ladies. Went to university, now I'm married with 2 children and have a successful career. Yet I still love 40k, always have. You'll also find many armed servicemen love 40k too.

We're not all stereotypical fat 20/30 something nerds living in our mothers basement dude. I'm sure you insulted many people with that post.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I remember reading that part. The Genesis champion smashes one of the NL to the ground with his thunder hammer...miraculously (surprise surprise!) the NL doesn't die and neither does the Genesis dude hit the NL again to finish him off
> 
> If I recall correctly, the Genesis dude only manages to inflict one casualty: Xarl, who dies of his wounds...but only after disemboweling and decapitating the Genesis guy (who continues his silly monologue as he is being killed)
> 
> ...





A Thunder Hammer hit, though powerful and often debilitating, is not a guaranteed kill hit every time. As for not striking Xarl when he was down Tolemion was being honorable. An honorable warrior does not strike an enemy while he is down. That Xarl would have done that does not make it stupid because to Tolemion, such honor is what makes him better than Xarl. It's also why he died.

No he inflicts one on-screen casualty. Likely he killed a score of Night Lords while fighting his way through the bridge. Xarl inflicts incredible wounds onto Tolemion who continues to praise the Emperor and curse the traitors as he dies yes, because that is what Imperial marines do. They are defiant until their final breath and if they can't kill their enemies they'll go out praising the Emperor and promising vengeance.

Malcharion was the better warrior. That he beat Raguel both as Astartes and as Dreadnoughts only proves it. Some warriors are just better than others. And no Malcharion incapacitated Raguel, Talos executed him. So yes the Blood Angels did lose him in that attack but it was not Malcharion that killed Raguel, he only beat him. If they had been able to pull Raguel back he would have lived.



ADB handles loyalists very well. Hyperion, Grimaldus and his Flesh Tearers are brilliant characters that depart from the typical loyalist characters by being either vastly different like Hyperion, new and filled with doubt like Grimaldus, or being virtual outcasts like his Flesh Tearers. Admittedly his CSM are better but ADB writes the best CSM in Black Library.


LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

hmmm the Irony did not really came across
I a am a fat 30 year old nerd with a phd in physics (and also proud of it), I do however not live with my mom,
I just went to my local GW shop tp pick up siege of castellax, 
trust me Nerds (like me) ALL over the place

pretty funny how this tread is on evil guys being cool and all, I mention we are geeks and everyone is insulted, does that make me also a cool SM (in case it is not entirely clear the latter was also ironic)


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

I'm not sure where this '40k nerd' discussion is going, nor do I give a flying f**k. But it has nothing to do with the topic. Please keep on topic from now on. If you would like to keep talking about that line of discussion, please start your own thread.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> A Thunder Hammer hit, though powerful and often debilitating, is not a guaranteed kill hit every time. As for not striking Xarl when he was down Tolemion was being honorable. An honorable warrior does not strike an enemy while he is down. That Xarl would have done that does not make it stupid because to Tolemion, such honor is what makes him better than Xarl. It's also why he died.


I found it lame, you found it awesome

We can agree to disagree



> No he inflicts one on-screen casualty. Likely he killed a score of Night Lords while fighting his way through the bridge.


Please remember that my main complaint was "it's almost like ADB is allergic to having NL killed by loyalist SM *on-screen*" 

IIRC, there were *zero* "loyalist on NL" kills in the entirety of _Blood Reaver_ (not counting dreadnought kill). There's only a passing mention of the number of NL killed (a line in the dialogue to the effect of "the BA killed X number of our warriors") 

Despite the high quality of ADB's writing, this...quirk of his really hampers my enjoyment of his NL work 



> Xarl inflicts incredible wounds onto Tolemion who continues to praise the Emperor and curse the traitors as he dies yes, because that is what Imperial marines do.


No...that's what Tolemion does. Plenty of loyalists are able to keep their mouths shut when fighting dangerous foes. Tolemion's non-stop yapping is only a nit-pick of mind. I didn't find it to be very silly, just a little silly. 



> Malcharion was the better warrior.


Perhaps



> That he beat Raguel both as Astartes and as Dreadnoughts only proves it.


Eh...no


No doubt he laid low Raguel as an Astartes. However, we don't know how he pulled it off. For all we know, he could've cut Raguel down from behind...Malcharion is a NL after all). He fought Raguel to a stalemate as a dreadnought. My point is that the humiliation inflicted on the BA is pretty extreme. Talos killing BA left and right with a BA relic sword. Malcharion beating Raguel. Raguel failing again. The BA lose a 10,000 year old dreadnought. The NL only lose "thirty of our warriors". I found it unbalanced
 



> ADB handles loyalists very well. Hyperion, Grimaldus and his Flesh Tearers are brilliant characters


His Flesh Tearers are great. I think he does Dark Angels pretty well. 

I just hope he doesn't make them idiots so that Sevatar can make a grand escape. I mean, he's giving me reason to worry (trying to hold enemy Asartes in iron cages they can melt with their spit...really? I don't think the Lion and his DA are _that_ dumb)


Not that impressed by his other loyalist work. I didn't find Grimaldus or Hyperion to be very interesting. Helsreach and The Emperor's Gift are solid novels, but not great in my opinion.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

piemelke said:


> This is starting to become annoying but I agree with Monty ADB does not have the same heart for loyalists as for CSM, not in Hellsreach and not in the emperor's gift, but that is ok.
> Examples: The genesis chapter marine and his monosynaptic rambling on how he is the bane of (kings) of traitors,...
> Blood angels squad getting killed because a NL hit a plasma coil, WTF
> 
> ...


What a load of crap. Guys like action movies with arnold schewarzenneger and stallone etc., does that make them all fat no-lifer geeks who want to escape into that "world" ?

Speak for yourself, dude.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

On movies badboy roles are definately more interesting and many actors themselves have said that offer more interesting acting challenges. Same applies to many books, even though readers hate villains they are usually why some scenes are so memorable.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I found it lame, you found it awesome
> 
> We can agree to disagree


Fair enough.




MontytheMighty said:


> IIRC, there were *zero* "loyalist on NL" kills in the entirety of _Blood Reaver_ (not counting dreadnought kill). There's only a passing mention of the number of NL killed (a line in the dialogue to the effect of "the BA killed X number of our warriors")
> 
> Despite the high quality of ADB's writing, this...quirk of his really hampers my enjoyment of his NL work.


That's because there were no loyalists in _Blood Reaver_. Only the Red Corsairs.




MontytheMighty said:


> No...that's what Tolemion does. Plenty of loyalists are able to keep their mouths shut when fighting dangerous foes. Tolemion's non-stop yapping is only a nit-pick of mind. I didn't find it to be very silly, just a little silly.


And i'm sure many others do as well. It's all down to the marine and his chapter, Tolemion went out praising the Emperor. I enjoyed it as it felt like something a loyalist hopped up on the Emperor would do.




MontytheMighty said:


> Eh...no
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt he laid low Raguel as an Astartes. However, we don't know how he pulled it off. For all we know, he could've cut Raguel down from behind...Malcharion is a NL after all). He fought Raguel to a stalemate as a dreadnought. My point is that the humiliation inflicted on the BA is pretty extreme. Talos killing BA left and right with a BA relic sword. Malcharion beating Raguel. Raguel failing again. The BA lose a 10,000 year old dreadnought. The NL only lose "thirty of our warriors". I found it unbalanced


Eh. Yes.




Uzas and Talos state that they saw Malcharion duelling Raguel on the walls of the Imperial Palace, Uzas says that the Dreadnought duel reminded him of seeing the two crossing blades at Terra. It was an honest fight that Malcharion won. And as for the "BA humiliation" Malcharion kills a fellow Dreadnought in battle and Talos cuts down a handful of Blood Angels. Both of them are highly skilled warriors and Talos was armed with a superior weapon. It was no different than a Space Marine captain cutting down multiple redshirt marines, Talos cut down a handful of redshirt Blood Angels. Hardly killing them left and right.




LotN


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> That's because there were no loyalists in _Blood Reaver_. Only the Red Corsairs.


Uh...the BA weren't in Blood Reaver (am I confusing Soul Hunter with Blood Reaver?)



> And i'm sure many others do as well.


Well, I don't know about that. First time I read something like that. I only know that some chaplains are known to spew litanies when fighting. I found it to be rather silly but I can let it slide, no biggie 





> Eh. Yes.
> 
> Uzas and Talos state that they saw Malcharion duelling Raguel on the walls of the Imperial Palace, Uzas says that the Dreadnought duel reminded him of seeing the two crossing blades at Terra. It was an honest fight that Malcharion won.


Eh. No again. 

Unfortunately, my memory of the part of the dialogue you're referring to is non-existent.

Let's say they fight an "honest duel". Even so, winning a hard-fought duel doesn't mean A is superior to B. It only means that A has defeated B under a certain set of circumstances. When two fighters of similar or even equal skill go at it, one is bound to lose. Hell, the slightly more skilled fighter could end up losing. 

Winning doesn't necessarily mean you're superior fighter, unless you're defining "superior" as simply "victorious". 



> And as for the "BA humiliation" Malcharion kills a fellow Dreadnought in battle and Talos cuts down a handful of Blood Angels. Both of them are highly skilled warriors and Talos was armed with a superior weapon. It was no different than a Space Marine captain cutting down multiple redshirt marines, Talos cut down a handful of redshirt Blood Angels. Hardly killing them left and right.




The BA boarding operation was a complete catastrophe. It achieved very little at the cost of a 10,000 year old dreadnought and the lives of all the accompanying BA. Malcharion was simply repaired. They killed "almost thirty" NL (almost thirty, not even a full thirty...I went back to check) and a bunch of mortal crew. Big deal. It was a terrible exchange.


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