# Empire and its cheddar



## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Had a game against the new empire on thursday and I must say that they really are not that bad, even though I still won the game I was starting to get stressed out with a certain cheese build that I think will be at tournaments.

It consisted of great swords and archer detachments, archers are stubborn because of the silly new rule that passes on any special rules the parent unit has.

After a well organised beating from shooting followed by a stand and shoot, I was then stuck in combat with a stubborn archer unit. 

These were than backed up by a warrior priest spam that can attempt to keep casting prayers even when they fail the cast due to their prayers being a bound spell. My opponent just one diced every prayer and eventually I ran out of dispel dice.

This was then followed up by a big casting of some death magic from his lvl4 mage with a forbidden rod to gain extra dice if rolled low.


Rant over I just needed to get this cheese out of my system.


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

Couldn't have been too cheesy if you still beat him 

A couple of points to check though... Those archers come out of his special points if they're a detachment of great swords. They don't count as core.

Also, the way you phrased the priest casting made me pause. He can cast each of his 3 spells regardless of whether the others failed, but he still only gets one attempt per bound spell per phase. I hope he wasn't rolling each one until he cast it?


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

No he wasnt casting until a success he had just spamed out on them and was able to try with another priest.

Did not know about the detachment ruling, I will check that out next time I play him.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

sounds like a rather interesting build. i can see seomthing like the archers being used to pull a unit sideways and setting up the parent for a flank charge. hmmm me likes.


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## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

all so rules only get passed to the detachment if they are with in the 3in range if they move out or regimental unit moves out side range or is destroyed. 

Also just a side note spells don't effect both units, and if a special rule is giving to the detachment say frenzy that does not pass on to the regimental unit.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The detachment rule BTW is that the points cost of the detachments count as the same as the parent unit, so using archers in that manner means that they are special units since greatswords are special, not core. Also, the limit on the detachment size to being no more than half the size of the parent means detachments are generally not feasible as horde units and are often best used for stand and shoot, flank charges, and as relatively inexpensive roadblock and redirection units. 

Detachments with 3" of the parent unit can borrow from the parent unit's leadership and carry over its psychology (frenzy, hartred, Hold the Line, Immune to Psych, Stubborn, Steadfast, and stupidity). Also, any battle prayers by arch lectors and warrior priests in the parent unit (on the parent unit) benefit the detachments within 3" of that unit (p. 36). 

I don't find archer detachments with greatswords parent units to be cheesy. Archers are skirmishers (meaning no rank bonuses) with no armour and their characteristics (as shown on GW's site) are WS, BS, S, T, and I of 3 and LD of 7. 

The empire book is not broken and using detachments of archers to stand and shoot and act as stubborn diverters is a legit strategy. In fact, the example in the book (p. 30) is of using a detachment of shooting models (handgunners) with a stubborn parent of greatswords to gain stubborn and greater LD for the detachment. A strategy intended by the author of the book is not cheesy, especially given how much they nerfed stuff in empire and made most state troop units (including greatswords) more expensive in points costs. 

The real debate is whether it is worthwhile to employ a large parent unit with detachments and to spam warrior priests given that the points cost is very high and the detachments often lack hitting power. Warrior priests do have (as noted) the ability to cast bound spells with single dice in order to eat up dispel dice. The problem with the battle prayers is that the bound spells are really only effective in combat and only benefit the unit the warrior priest is in and any detachments associated with that unit that remain within 3" of the parent. Thus, the battle prayers are largely useless until a regiment or one of its detachments are actually in combat. That means warrior priests will often be eventually exposed to combat and will be killed and give up VPs before the end of the battle. Given that, there are risks and costs to the strategy mentioned. 

I'd complain a lot more about a skaven slave horde within range of a general and BSB than archer detachments with a greatsword parent.


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## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Just finished slaughtering WoC with my 50 of Greatswords supported by 25s of swordsmen and halberds as detachments. Droped a BSB and priest with the GS and replaced the missing model from the detachments with a witch hunter in each. Managed to take out three 25 blocks of warriors with shields with ease. sadly I had forgotten that failing a prayer doesn't end th turn for that priest. Oops, now I'm even stronger!

Never under estimate a priest. Hatred combined with Sigmar's Hammer means Me and my detachments are re-rolling both to hit AND to wound. Shield of Faith in GREAT at keeping your men alive and Soulburn is just what the doctor ordered for those pesky flanking cavalry or chariots. Add your witch hunters to the smaller units that you know will attract eney spells for the MR2 virtual immunity to terror (treat as fear with re-roll from the BSB) I never saw a DP so surprised!

I will say that Arch-Lectors look like a waste. 35 pts for +1 wound +1 Ld and the ability to waste extra points in Magic items and the new, not so awesome, war altar. No thank you! THey at least needed one or two extra prayers or the ability to try the same prayer twice or maybe cast it on a unit that he's not a part of (without that crappy altar), I don't know, something.

Anyway, Empire is sweet even if some of the stuff got apparently nerfed (Mortar anyone?)
Where was I going with this???

Oh yeah, I like the new detachment rules.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok as Olderplayer said, they are not really cheesy tactics as I had originaly stated, it just came as a bit of a shock when my opponent told what they could do and then proceeded to make me really work hard to win the battle. 

I dont know maybe I was being a bit full of myself, as up until that point I ahd always rolled over the Empire but I can see that a new book is what they needed and next time I will not get ahead of myself and will be cautious until I have learnt all their new tricks.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for the report. Consistent with what I am testing. The arch lector makes sense only in that it is harder to kill due to the extra wound and greater magic items allowance and, thus, more likely to survive and the extra +1 LD can make sense in the unit. The question is whether it makes sense compared to spamming warrior priests for a lot less points costs.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

karlhunt said:


> Just finished slaughtering WoC with my 50 of Greatswords supported by 25s of swordsmen and halberds as detachments. Droped a BSB and priest with the GS and replaced the missing model from the detachments with a witch hunter in each. Managed to take out three 25 blocks of warriors with shields with ease. sadly I had forgotten that failing a prayer doesn't end th turn for that priest. Oops, now I'm even stronger!
> 
> Never under estimate a priest. Hatred combined with Sigmar's Hammer means Me and my detachments are re-rolling both to hit AND to wound. Shield of Faith in GREAT at keeping your men alive and Soulburn is just what the doctor ordered for those pesky flanking cavalry or chariots. Add your witch hunters to the smaller units that you know will attract eney spells for the MR2 virtual immunity to terror (treat as fear with re-roll from the BSB) I never saw a DP so surprised!
> 
> ...


What size games are you playing??

Those detachments to those greatswords are special as well so one has to wonder where your core choices are...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

not really doubtimg you but must have rolled poorly to let 50 asl s5 units beat 75 warriors with shields? bit surprised there was nothing to stop your prayer going off and a daemon prince in any sense of the imagination is a subpar choice, sacrificing a 4+ as and magic items at worst simply because its a daemon in exchange for fly and a crappy ward save? ouch.

you can easily spam the warrior preliests if you need you dont share allowance and you sacrifice 2 state troopers from a unit to fit him in? stubborn hat enchanted shield, sword of no armour saves. fairly cheap reroll to hit reroll to wound no armour saves allowed, 3+ armour team up with anotherpriest for or 5+ ward and you have a decent fighter general. put witj bsb for htl, put in hallies or spears dependimg in local meta and rock on.

mr2 is shit. magic missiles and wounding spells are so less prevalent over remove model spells or augments/hexes. 

afaik your priest spells do not affect detachments unleas the caster priest is in the unit. 

as said you also were missing core. 

finally - greatswords blow. asl t3 4+ armour troops? sure can bless them but theyll die to a wet blanket. 50 can be avoided, flanked etc and if anyone ranks up fully instead of narrowing frontage they deserve to lose


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