# Best troop choice?



## Bloodspeaker (Mar 15, 2008)

Well the title says it all what is in most players opinion the best troop choice in the game and why?

I'll start by saying it's the plague marines for their overall resilience and objective holding efficiency.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Necron Warriors, a group of twenty can use the Gausstacular Shot Spam against an AV14 vehicle, which will immobilize, then destroy weapons, then asplode once all of those are gone. Ok, so it wont Explode, but still, it'll Wreck. Two units of twenty warriors (Or four of ten for those who value more units) can take out basically anything. They're insanely tough with a 3+ Armor Save and even though they suck in melee you can usually shoot down anything that tries to come close.


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

While i would love to say Avengers as i love them, i would have to say either marines (tactical units for both CSM and loyalists) or Crons have the best troops. Marines as they have versatility and a damn good stat line or Crons for the amazing stat line and the gauss death gun


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## DaafiejjXD (Jun 22, 2009)

imeprial guerd platoon, what about a troops choice which consists of ~100 soldiers(conscripts) and if you've got chenkove, you can take the conscripst from play, and the next turn they will come back as if they hadn't even fought yet, BRILLIANT


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Plaguemarines, without a doubt.

You can cram them into a rhino, give them two special weapons, T5, FnP, Fearless and Blight grenades, all for under 25pts.

Necron Warriors are forced to trudge along in the open at a painfully slow rate, leaving them open to the weapons that are effective against them. Too expensive for not a very high return.

And I'm not going to leave a vehicle within 12" of them if I actually fear them. Glancing things to death is statistically not that high at all; 20 shots, 13 hits and what, 2 Glances? Hardly glancing it to death... Even then you have 3 weapon destroyed and an Immobilise to get through to bring down a land raider.

Plaguemarines are tougher 

And for that 100 man squad, I'd just assault it with units I don't mind tying up 100 of the enemies models with in a single assault. Different story if you don't combine the squad... But still not impossible to deal with.


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## Lucius The Typhus (Apr 5, 2009)

Concrete Hero said:


> Plaguemarines, without a doubt.
> 
> You can cram them into a rhino, give them two special weapons, T5, FnP, Fearless and Blight grenades, all for under 25pts.
> 
> ...


I started to type a post, then realized it's almost identical to what you wrote. :biggrin: . Your post basically sums every thing up!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I would say either:

A) Plague Marines- for above reasons
B) Blood Claws- MEQs with 4A on charge (or on defence after passing a Ld8 test) and having 1 PF for every 5th model (2at8-10, 3at11-15) with 3A charging/counter-charge and only 14pts each (and 12pts for PFs).... but not for long
C) Orc Boyz- Throwing out a possible 120A at S4 is immense on any level.

Cron Warriors are good on paper but without transports and with their horrific liability in CC they just dont cut it- they are always hiding/running away to avoid CC so they never achieve the potential they might have otherwise managed.

I would also throw in DE warriors to the mix- rarely seen but give them a transport and some nice weapon upgrades and they are lethal.


Although I collect Nids and normally fill all their troop slots I cant say their troops are good... gaunts are good in numbers but just not game winners, hormogaunts totally suck and genestealers are way too expensive.


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## Ascendant (Dec 11, 2008)

Shoota Boyz. Get a dozen, throw them in a Trukk. Get Twenty and Throw them in a Wagon. Or max out the squad and have them just plough along.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Concrete Hero said:


> Plaguemarines, without a doubt.
> 
> You can cram them into a rhino, give them two special weapons, T5, FnP, Fearless and Blight grenades, all for under 25pts.
> 
> ...


20 warriors shoot 40 shots. In larger games where LReq can be afforded safely you'll face more than twenty, probably 30+, which comes out to 60 shots, resulting in about 9 glances which means 4-3 immobs/weapon destroyed. At best you'll have one weapon left on it or it can move. If you only get weapon destroyeds you could tank shock but the enemy, which will be about useless. Land raider is toast since Warriors are rarely moved apart, and you'll have to face the wrath of all of them at once. Plus remember that if you're that close to warriors you're going to be that close to a Monolith. And that Particle Whip is downright nasty. And lets not forget some of those glances will be Shaken and Stunned results, making it useless next turn even if they don't manage to destroy it.


As for trudging along, you can speed the process with a monolith, but since the damn things are basically indestructible in any conflict that doesn't involve power weapons, S8, or ordnance, they don't need to be that fast, and if you pack a Lord with a Res Orb (And theres no reason you shouldn't) not even those things are all that threatening. So, if you have a res orb, there are _no_ weapons that are particularly effective against them, because they can always come back.

EDIT:
Whoa, why the hell did it double post my edit?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Bloodspeaker said:


> Well the title says it all what is in most players opinion the best troop choice in the game and why?
> 
> I'll start by saying it's the plague marines for their overall resilience and objective holding efficiency.





Concrete Hero said:


> Plaguemarines, without a doubt.
> 
> You can cram them into a rhino, give them two special weapons, T5, FnP, Fearless and Blight grenades, all for under 25pts...





Lucius The Typhus said:


> I started to type a post, then realized it's almost identical to what you wrote. :biggrin: . Your post basically sums every thing up!





Tim/Steve said:


> I would say either:
> 
> A) Plague Marines- for above reasons...


I 5th Plague Marines, they are rock hard:good:


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I'll say BATTLESISTERS!
Why? Because you get BETTER Shooting than marines, have good special weapon options ( melta's and flamers is all you need!  and throw in a Heavy flamer for more fun ), can come in squads of 20! have the same 3+ armour save, and are far cheaper than anything mentioned before. Especially when you have multiple squads and a cannoness etc. your faith will soar, meaning divine guidance to make those bolters AP1 will be prevalent when needed, so bye bye FNP or armour saves.

Sure, the girls aren't that good in CC, but they can still tarpit you quite nicely, since they're ld9 and effectively stubborn++ ( with a BoSL ) and still have that 3+ armour save( which in the end can also become invulnerable, prolonging the tarpit )

All in all, you get more bang for your buck than expensive plague marines, and necron warriors etc.


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## Bloodspeaker (Mar 15, 2008)

And i was wondering when the sisters would be brought up... 

All in all good points but what happens when your faith is not "strong" enough or when it runs out...


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

the trick is, using faith properly.. big squads get divine guidance. if there's 20 sisters rapidfiring bolters, you only fail on a double six, that's better ods than psychic powers.
And there are other tricks to make sure you get the most out of your faith.
Also, don't forget, because they're so cheap, you will have multiple squads, allowing you room to sacrifice certain squads by making them a high priority threat for the enemy ( seraphim and cannonesses are great for this ), these will eventually be brought down, giving you more faith points. I almost never run out of faith points.
Usually I send my cannoness solo against the enemy, using her 2+ invulnerable save and draw fire, prepare the kill with the rest of my troops, wear them down with my heavy bolters, Sacrifice my seraphim destroy enemy armour and keep some of them out of position to counterattack the rest of my army.
Then send in the rest for the final kill.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Ork boyz are probably the best value in the entire game.


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## hells_fury (Apr 17, 2008)

id go with einar as sisters are defiantly nasty, a squad of 20 is still dangerous in cc, hurling up to 20 S5 attacks, a lot of things are in for a world of hurt, and their stubborn, haha, even dark eldar hate it, one guys talos was locked in cc with a squad of dominions for the whole game, he was only killing one a turn and they would not break and flee.

they also can become fearless and have invun saves if you kill enough. sure they might not be the best, but they would be pretty high up, and if you reckon 20 sisters isnt that scary, ask the 2 chaos lords and socceror in termie amour that DS in front off them, all three were dead as a doorbell when the sisters finished with them


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## jaren (Jul 7, 2008)

black templar crusader squad

up to 10 initiates and 10 neophytes, can take a LRC as a dedicated transport (which is cheaper then vanilla marines) can have 2 heavy weapons in a squad as small as 5 initiates, they can have many bonuses due to a vow taken, but usually you will see them re-roll missed hits in close combat, they can have either a bolter or bp/ccw.

this is arguably the best troops choice in the game, the blacktide lists can prove this.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

In terms of pure hurt: Nob bikers (assuming a Warboss as HQ) Taking into account cost and such, I think sisters are pretty hard to beat. Although 30 shoota boyz can be deadly too... I can't decide between my nuns and orks. :grin:


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

I'd go for Ork Boyz, not only are they dirt cheap but 30 Ork Boyz charging at ST4 with over a hundred attacks along with a few whacks with a PK are bound to maul almost any unit in the game! Plus 30 Shoota Boyz firing full auto isn't too shabby either.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Its got to be Plague Marines, without me been biast towards my first ever army, I have been playing Death Guard for years and Plague Marines are easily the best unit of any Army I have played.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Ok guys, you have all been deliberately avoiding the coolest troop unit of all: Thousand Sons. Bad ass fluff, Bad ass models, MEQ killers without compare, tough as nails (on a par with Plague Marines I think), bad ass models, bad ass fluff )).

Thousand Sons: it's what the cool kids play.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

hells_fury said:


> id go with einar as sisters are defiantly nasty, a squad of 20 is still dangerous in cc, hurling up to 20 S5 attacks, a lot of things are in for a world of hurt, and their stubborn, haha, even dark eldar hate it, one guys talos was locked in cc with a squad of dominions for the whole game, he was only killing one a turn and they would not break and flee.
> 
> they also can become fearless and have invun saves if you kill enough. sure they might not be the best, but they would be pretty high up, and if you reckon 20 sisters isnt that scary, ask the 2 chaos lords and socceror in termie amour that DS in front off them, all three were dead as a doorbell when the sisters finished with them


Don't forget that you can use another act of faith that makes them ap1/power weapons on roll's of 6s. 20 sisters at strenght 5 and ignoring armour on rolls of 6 is pretty scary.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Point For Point? Genestealers.


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## HighHubris (Mar 16, 2009)

10 wraith guard with a spiritseer running either enhance or conceal.

sure it's 400 points but i'll stick by em cause i'm half retarded but i love em.

serious though...
5 Deathwing TH/SS termies mixed with a chaplain in a landraider. (not so cheap)
Plaguemarines (still not so cheap, but cheaper than above)
then Guardian jetbikes (dirt cheap)


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

While 1ksons, plague marines and boys are all nasty, I still hold that sisters are better, simply because of the cost/benefit economics. The chaos guys are expensive as hell, and the boys don't have any armour to speak of, meaning that they get shot to ribbons before getting to where they're supposed to be. BS2 of orks also kinda makes their guns rather unreliable at best.
Battlesisters, even with their T3 are still tough as nails to kill due to their 3+ armour save, and they have bolters, while on SMs those aren't that impressive due to low numbers, with sisters, because they're so cheap, they can MASS bolterfire, which is where when those bolters come into their own. Add to this the fact that with faith, 1/6 of the wounds become AP1, and you have some deadly girls on the battlefield.

While they're not the toughest, or killiest unit in the game, they're the most economic one I think.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Iron Angel said:


> 20 warriors shoot 40 shots. In larger games where LReq can be afforded safely you'll face more than twenty, probably 30+, which comes out to 60 shots, resulting in about 9 glances which means 4-3 immobs/weapon destroyed. At best you'll have one weapon left on it or it can move. If you only get weapon destroyeds you could tank shock but the enemy, which will be about useless. Land raider is toast since Warriors are rarely moved apart, and you'll have to face the wrath of all of them at once. Plus remember that if you're that close to warriors you're going to be that close to a Monolith. And that Particle Whip is downright nasty. And lets not forget some of those glances will be Shaken and Stunned results, making it useless next turn even if they don't manage to destroy it.
> 
> 
> Only 40 shots within 12". More than likely the vehicle that's going to be within 12" is going to be a transport. 30 warriors costs how much? Thats 540pts shooting at 35-55 of mine. And if I'm that close I'll be forcing the assault, pretty much condemning the Necrons.
> ...



I've never really had that much trouble killing Necron Warriors, true Monolithes boost their presence, but they also cost a bomb and are hardly game winning. I fear Destroyers over Monolithes


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## norest4thewicked (Jun 3, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Necron Warriors, a group of twenty can use the Gausstacular Shot Spam against an AV14 vehicle, which will immobilize, then destroy weapons, then asplode once all of those are gone. Ok, so it wont Explode, but still, it'll Wreck. Two units of twenty warriors (Or four of ten for those who value more units) can take out basically anything. They're insanely tough with a 3+ Armor Save and even though they suck in melee you can usually shoot down anything that tries to come close.


haha im sure that will happen if your fighting a 5 year old child with autism,
people fighting warriors will usually give it cover with either buildings or troops, i mean yeah 6+ glance is great! but when your faced with a horde of orks or plague marines who will eat your silly gauss weapons, then assault you and your dead. Sure you use your monolith to kill the opponent but then he uses that tank you didnt destroy and wipes out some more people... i mean i feel sorry for necrons :laugh:


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

noise marines...
sonic blasters and blastmasters are arguably the best upgrades for a troops choice there is.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I have to go back to the IG troop platoons, take combined squads 3 x 10 with a tooled up commissar and tooled up sgts. Stubborn LD9 with reroll, giving out a lot of fire (granted mostly torches but still) and should win through attrition against mosts things, and still dish out at least 9 power attacks a turn. 

Fairly cheap and can be tooled up to do what ever needs to be done. Very good indeed, especially when combined with other guard units.


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## SKITTLESKITTEN (Feb 12, 2008)

Orc Boys - 6pts ea and can mob 30 deep


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

norest4thewicked said:


> haha im sure that will happen if your fighting a 5 year old child with autism,
> people fighting warriors will usually give it cover with either buildings or troops, i mean yeah 6+ glance is great! but when your faced with a horde of orks or plague marines who will eat your silly gauss weapons, then assault you and your dead. Sure you use your monolith to kill the opponent but then he uses that tank you didnt destroy and wipes out some more people... i mean i feel sorry for necrons :laugh:


Except that assaulting a unit of 20 necrons with anything at all is pure suicide if they're that close to a monolith, since once you're done with your fancy-dancy assault I'll warp them out of the assault with my Monolith, reroll all their WBB rolls, get 3/4ths of them back, and then proceed to mow down the unit you just assaulted me with. At the most you, what, killed two or three warriors dead forever? I just killed every single one of your terminators (Or whatever you rushed me with). The problem is that you're trying to play attrition with Necrons, by hiding your vehicles or not taking out entire units with one turn. And Necrons are the undisputed masters of attrition warfare. 20 Necron Warriors, from my experience, CAN'T be killed in one turn, so you've always got at least fifteen to deal with. Leaving just a single Necron Warrior alive out of a unit will result in me getting half the dead back from WBB (Because I will ALWAYS have a Res Orb nearby) then ANOTHER half back from the reroll from Lith.

Necron warriors, if used properly, are impossible to destroy. Plague marines get FNP but once they're dead they're dead. Necron Warriors that get killed and then fail their WBB rolls can still return by using the Monolith, and their sheer tenacity is what makes them so downright nasty.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Except that assaulting a unit of 20 necrons with anything at all is pure suicide if they're that close to a monolith, since once you're done with your fancy-dancy assault I'll warp them out of the assault with my Monolith, reroll all their WBB rolls, get 3/4ths of them back,


anything ... really. 595pts of necrons, that gets me 35 blood claws with 7 powerfists, so I should kill 17 of your warriors and then run down the other 3. Without a res ord 9 of them are just plain dead, and without another warriors within 6" all of them are down for the count.

even if I just oppose the warriors its 360pts, gets me more then 20 blood claws, I should kill 10+, you should kill 1-2... then I run down 10 guys


Moral of this story- necrons in combat with something good are DEAD, necrons charged by something rubbish have a high chance of being mown down into bits... sure if you charge them and fail then they'll ignore any damage they do take (if they were stubborn at Ld9-10 then yes, this would then be a good tactic)


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

I personally feel that the slannesh (sp?) marines, sound marines, are very strong, they have a tough save and an ap 3 blast weapon.

Although their ultimate downfall is their speed and number, they cost a lot and the first time i played them I won due to firepower, lucky saves and speed.

But I still feel their pretty tough as they don't suffer from the nurgle D6 movement which really hinders them


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The BEST troop choice, wins both cost efficency and table tp abilitiy.

Easily the Khorne berzerker.

4 str 5, initiative 5 attacks on the charge at WS5.
Fearless.
Cheap.
Power armour.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

Orochi said:


> The BEST troop choice, wins both cost efficency and table tp abilitiy.
> 
> Easily the Khorne berzerker.
> 
> ...



I guess it depends on how you set the troops up, I personally see the rhino as part of the tactical squad as the seargent is, gets a few different rules but all in all they act as one.

Deamons suffer from not having dedicated transport, its nice that they can deep strike but they really suffer from the enemies shooting phase.

I agree that they get a lot for their points, but I think it tries to make up for them not having a transport, what do you think?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well I think that bloodletters and berzerkers are very different things... the bloodletters suck, but bezerkers are just about the nastiest thing about (well, comparable to blood claws at least- 10 guys 31 S4 WS3 I4 attacks on/off charge- 4 each-, 6 S8 powerfist attacks and a flamer all for 170pts).


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

lol Fire Warriors. Hands down. Cheap, insanely effective, and has high morale.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

You telling me a Fire warrior stands up to any type of marine?

Good, i didnt think you were


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## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

I eat Firewarriors for breakfast...not good for the colon.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Orochi said:


> You telling me a Fire warrior stands up to any type of marine?
> 
> Good, i didnt think you were


Considering you get 1.6 Fire Warriors for every Space Marine, yes, without a doubt. When you add access to the best APC in the game for it's cost, there's no competition at all!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Again, you telling me that a Devilfish is better than a Wave serpent for its cost?
I hope not.

10 space Marines = 16 Fire warriors (for the costs).
at 24"
-10 marines = 6.6 hits = 4.2 wounds = 2.1 dead tau
-16 fire warriors = 8 hits = 5.3 wounds = 1.7 dead marines

Oh, don't forget, you can only field maximum units of 12 fire warriors?

so yes, there is competition. If there wasn't, people would field Tau over Marines, and...that isn't ever going to happen.

12 Dire Avangers Vs 12 Fire warriors
@ 18"
-12 Dire avengers = 18 hits = 12 wounds = 6 dead tau
-12 Fire Warriors = 6 hits = 5 wounds = 2.5 dead Avengers

And before you say 'well rapid firing range would mean double the death' and 'I have a range of 30"'...
No good player is going to walk up to your fire warriors, and no good player is stupid enough to stay in your rapid firing range. So before you play that card, don't bother. We're not stupid enough to allow you to have that advantage if we can help it.

3 Death wing terminators (they come in units of 5, but its a ratio)
3 Deathwing = 4 hits = 2.6 wounds = 1.3 dead tau
12 Fire warriors = 6 hits = 4 wounds = 0.6 dead terminators

12 Fire warriors would have to inflict 20 wounds to defeat 3 terminators. On average you cause 4 a turn, meaning that a full strength fire warrior squad will kill 3 deathwing in 5 turns.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Again, you telling me that a Devilfish is better than a Wave serpent for its cost?


Uh, last time I checked the Wave Serpent was the most expensive APC in the game... So I'm going to go with yes on that one :laugh:



Orochi said:


> 10 space Marines = 16 Fire warriors (for the costs).
> at 24"
> -10 marines = 6.6 hits = 4.2 wounds = 2.1 dead tau
> -16 fire warriors = 8 hits = 5.3 wounds = 1.7 dead marines


Leaving roughly 13% of the Tau dead, and 17% of the marines dead.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Its the most expensive, due to the fact it has a better gun, more armour, higher transport caperbilities and a special rule.

A Wave serpent can be tailored to engage other vehicles or armour. Can a devil fish? nope.
Also, BS4 is a luxury denied to the Tau Devilfish, while all the guns on a WS are twin.

And the Best tranport option in the game is the land raider crusader. failing that, the Thunderhawk.

And the Tau manta costs 2000 ish points whilst empty. I can get an army for that.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

this is best troop, not tank, please keep focus


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief Im not entirely sure what your trying to prove there- yes Tau can outshoot marines... thats what they do. The problem comes when the marines get into combat and the Tau evaporate from the battlefield.

Wave serpents are good... are they the best for pts, I would give them a solid maybe- their rule and upgrades makes them nigh unkillable at times, nice, but not always worth it.

Best troops in the game are going to be the new SW Grey Hunters when they come out next month... frankly I couldnt be more annoyed about this- codex creep is one thing but GHs are going to have chaos set up with marine ATSKNF and will be cheaper then both. I might have to bury my SWs as too beady to contemplate.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, each codex that appears is better than the rest.

I dread to think what the new Necron codex will be like.

And thank you Tim/Steve for aiding my correct arguement.


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## bob_the_grea (Jul 27, 2009)

yeh i got to agree, take it from a guy who plays a mech tau and mech eldar. the wave serpent in vastly better.

of so you get disruption pods, you know how many times that fails, and every time it does you know that lascannon is going right through you.

the waveserpant with eml is one of my favorite verhicles to date, just incredibly flexible.

and then theres the troops that go in in, dire avengers are one of the best all-round troops in the game, each time i dump out of wave serpants and shoot a marine squad they get hurt. and thats not including doom and guide.

30 shots- 20 hits -10 wound - thats 3/4 dead

fir warriors

20 shots- 10 hits- 5 wounds- 1 dead maybe two.

however its the marines turn where it goes bad for the tau, his 9 marines then charge you...game over for the tau fire warriors.

as for the dire avenger, with defend and shimmer field, those marines are going to bounce..

the power fits will hit 1 once, wound once, with 1/3 chance of saving
the 6 marines will hit 3, wound 2, one dies

the dire avengers strike at the same time, and the exarch if he rolls well will kill one before he strikes.

chances are your going to draw with him, then the hammer unit comes in.
unlike the fire warriors who dont have a hammer unit ( and if you say kroot you need your head testing lol)

i must say dire avengers are very very good, but tactical sqauds are now very good, for 170 points, you have 10 marines, a flamer and a missile laucher. thats pretty decent.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

In terms of balance i can see the grey knights becoming small teams of gods on the battlefeild when their redone, each GK is about twice the price of a normal marine so I can only expect some sort of mega boost which will allow 10 men and a dreadnought or something roam the battlefeild being neight unstoppable.

Remembering that in a 1000pt army you get about 10 men and a cheap HQ, a dreadnought or something.

I want to wait and see what they give the Space Wolves for a pts comparisen, but I can only expect something a lot tougher than the previous Grey Knights


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## FatBoyFat (Feb 23, 2009)

I put my vote in for an infantry platoon of the good ol' Guard, command squad, 5 infantry squads, 1 conscript squad, 5 heavy weapons squads and 2 special weapons squads, 147 loyal and lovely troops of imperial guard, 21 heavy weapons, 12-13 special weapons, a couple of power weapons, stick a comissor as well. In a one troop choice vs one troop choice fight, I'd like to see any army that could stand up to it, 106 lasguns, or 212 at rapid fire, thats a lot of dice!


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## Virus49 (Aug 7, 2009)

I will be a man of wise words here. And say...

It is not the troops chosen. But the skill of the person leading them.


and luck... lots and lots of luck


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> anything ... really. 595pts of necrons, that gets me 35 blood claws with 7 powerfists, so I should kill 17 of your warriors and then run down the other 3. Without a res ord 9 of them are just plain dead, and without another warriors within 6" all of them are down for the count.
> 
> even if I just oppose the warriors its 360pts, gets me more then 20 blood claws, I should kill 10+, you should kill 1-2... then I run down 10 guys
> 
> ...


Lets start with them about 18" apart. I say this because, if we're evaluating ONLY troops choices, they won't magically appear on top of my warriors. This is the only way to get an unbiased view of the event as, if you appear on top of me in melee and we calculate it out, I'm screwed. If we calculate ONLY shooting, well, you're obviously screwed since BCs can't shoot. So we need to do this how it would transpire if it were actually happening on a battlefield.

You move, then run, and get within 6" of my models. Then I shoot you with 40 shots, and then charge YOU instead just to keep you from getting 3 attacks a model for charging, and the likelihood of my warriors, despite their shitty Initiative, killing the remaining BCs with 40 melee attacks before removing dead ones is very high, and even if I don't, you're immensely outnumbered, so you'll likely fall back. You'll likely roll higher than I do for I and fall back successfully- Which means I'll just shoot you dead next turn.

Another thing you might try is to goad me forward by not moving within 12 inches of me, so that if I move forward at all, you can move forward and charge me. But, I'll just long range shot you until you come closer. I don't get as many shots, but I'm not particularly threatened.

No matter what, my goal will be to deprive you of the +2 A you get on the charge, and get you at range before melee starts to improve my chances.

I challenge anyone to build a single unit of Troops choices that comes to 320 or less and find a way to defeat a 320 point unit of Necron warriors if both start 14" away from one another or have a special rule that lest them DS or otherwise appear closer than 14". This is a friendly challenge; I'm not completely convinced, I'm not that arrogant. But I can't find one that can do it, and I'd like to see if there is one, so I can prepare if I see it, and so you can know what to use as well.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

easy.. 20 sisters with 2 stormbolters, and a veteran with a stormbolter. that's around 250 points.
Now, for this, scenario, we'll assume that there is more army around the table.
At 24" range, I will have 23 shots to your 20, Same BS, Same strength. Now, you will have the advantage of +1T over me, but I will have Divine Guidance, in massed fire this really shines because I will be dropping several AP1 shots on your head, reducing your necrons to bits.
If we get into 12", my rapidfire will be even more devastating, since more shots = more AP1.
I'd have to mathhammer it, but I'm quite sure I'll come out on top.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Lets start with them about 18" apart. I say this because, if we're evaluating ONLY troops choices, they won't magically appear on top of my warriors. This is the only way to get an unbiased view of the event as, if you appear on top of me in melee and we calculate it out, I'm screwed. If we calculate ONLY shooting, well, you're obviously screwed since BCs can't shoot. So we need to do this how it would transpire if it were actually happening on a battlefield.
> 
> You move, then run, and get within 6" of my models. Then I shoot you with 40 shots, and then charge YOU instead just to keep you from getting 3 attacks a model for charging, and the likelihood of my warriors, despite their shitty Initiative, killing the remaining BCs with 40 melee attacks before removing dead ones is very high, and even if I don't, you're immensely outnumbered, so you'll likely fall back. You'll likely roll higher than I do for I and fall back successfully- Which means I'll just shoot you dead next turn.
> 
> ...



*rolls eyes*
trying to be beardy is never going to work with necrons- warriors shooting at blood claws is just a waste. 10vs 10 (ie 180pts vs 170pts with wargear equipped), you should get 1 round of shooting at 24"... but if we're kind and I roll badly, giving you 2 round at 24" and 1 at 12" then you would kill 4 (ok 4.4)... then 6 BCs smash you in combat (and thats without tactics or rhinos).
Currently you cant stop them getting +2 attack as they counter attack with 2 attacks currently (not in the new dex).

- next month it'll be 10 grey hunters with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino (195pts): they can outshoot warriors, mean you need a res orb, have a transport and with 3A on charge/counter-charge and 2A every other round crons just cant hope to compete


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Interesting.

Edit: Alright, the Mathhammer has struck.

20 Necrons shoot at 20 BCs from 12"-. Necrons need a 3+ to hit at BS4. That means about 27 out of 40 are successful hits. Gauss Flayer is AP5, SW armor save is 3+. They must roll a 3 or 4 to save, which means of those 27 hits 18 are unsaved wounds. That leaves a paltry two Blood Claws in front of them which I assault. Even if they do get 6 attacks to my 40, I think the outcome is little more than a foregone conclusion at this point. I don't see the counter-attack rules in the Space Wolves codex, but I'll take your word for it.

1: We'll assume both have no Power Fists. Thats the only way both will get to attack at all. They attack at 6 attacks, s3 ws4. 2 wound the Necrons. If they have power weapons thats two dead necrons. If they don't, its one.
2: 36 (We'll assume the 2 necrons died) melee attacks at s4 ws4 are made. 18 connect. 3+ armor save plus to wound roll means about 4 wounds make it through. Blood Claws = dead.

EDIT: I don't see whats so beardy about it. All I'm doing is forcing your hand, which is key to winning any battle.


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

FatBoyFat said:


> I put my vote in for an infantry platoon of the good ol' Guard, command squad, 5 infantry squads, 1 conscript squad, 5 heavy weapons squads and 2 special weapons squads, 147 loyal and lovely troops of imperial guard, 21 heavy weapons, 12-13 special weapons, a couple of power weapons, stick a comissor as well. In a one troop choice vs one troop choice fight, I'd like to see any army that could stand up to it, 106 lasguns, or 212 at rapid fire, thats a lot of dice!



318 when given FRFSRF!


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

I 'd say that Guard can just about win any troop vs troop battle. 

If you give a platoon Chenkov and 4 GLs, two infantry squads with GL and 50 conscripts with SITNW, they are nigh unkillable. As a matter of fact, the PCS and infantry squads would be entirely secondary, as you only need Chenkov and the conscripts. 

Attrition will win any battle, as long as you are equipped for it in numbers.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> 20 Necrons shoot at 20 BCs from 12"-. Necrons need a 3+ to hit at BS4. That means about 27 out of 40 are successful hits. Gauss Flayer is AP5, SW armor save is 3+. They must roll a 3 or 4 to save


Um, we both play the same game right? AP5 has no effect on a BC's 3+ save.

20 crons shoot 40 shots, 27hits, 13 wound, 4.4 die.
15.6BCs shoot- 2 flamer and 13 pistols kill 2 crons shooting.

50A on charge kill 4 more crons, 14 crons kill 1.5 BCs. Powerfists take another 2.5.... Ld 5 test for necrons with 72% chance to fail and a 83% of getting run down and destroyed (so 14BCs survive when they are 340pts vs 360pts of crons).


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Interesting.

Admittedly I don't get to play against SM very much so any special AP resistance they have is foreign to me. I just read over the "armor saves" section of 5th edition and it would appear I am correct, an AP5 weapon would ignore a saving roll of 5 or 6, and the armor being 3+ means if I roll a 1 or 2 your save fails. Can you direct me to a specific rule that SW or SM have that makes their armor impervious to AP values on weapons?

EDIT: Looked over their rules again, and spotted something interesting. Counter attack does not grant the defenders their additional attacks they would get from assaulting. Direct quote:
"Models that counter-attack do not get the +1 attack bonus for charging".
Blood claws get +2 though; Does it still count?

And Einar, if you get other units on the board, I do too. Lets pretend I have a Lord with a Res Orb and a monolith within 6". I'll park my Lith at an angle and hide my Lord behind a corner so you can't shoot it due to LOS. I could bring the Pie Plate into this but I won't since this is a battle of the troop choices. If you shoot my guys, kill every one. If you don't, I'll roll them through the Lith after they take their standard WBB roll, then reroll all the failed ones since I ported through the Lith. I'll play attrition with you, and I'll win simply because my 20 Necrons can outlast your Sisters (IE, they can outlast you _indefinitely_). Now, at 12"- I'm not so sure because that AP1 is still pretty intimidating and you actually might drop the entire unit in one round of shooting. If you leave just a single Necron Warrior alive though its back to where we started and I'll have about fifteen again next shooting phase. I'd say the sisters are the first I've heard suggested that pose a significant threat. Good selection, Einar.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> IAdmittedly I don't get to play against SM very much so any special AP resistance they have is foreign to me. I just read over the "armor saves" section of 5th edition and it would appear I am correct, an AP5 weapon would ignore a saving roll of 5 or 6, and the armor being 3+ means if I roll a 1 or 2 your save fails. Can you direct me to a specific rule that SW or SM have that makes their armor impervious to AP values on weapons?


You've got it wrong.
An AP5 weapon ignores armour saves of 5 or 6, it doesn't ignore a roll of 5 or 6 on an armour saving throw.
AP3 weapons ignore anything but a 2+ armour save.
AP4 weapons ignore anything but a 2+ or 3+ armour save.
Get it now?



Iron Angel said:


> And Einar, if you get other units on the board, I do too. Lets pretend I have a Lord with a Res Orb and a monolith within 6". I'll park my Lith at an angle and hide my Lord behind a corner so you can't shoot it due to LOS. I could bring the Pie Plate into this but I won't since this is a battle of the troop choices. If you shoot my guys, kill every one. If you don't, I'll roll them through the Lith after they take their standard WBB roll, then reroll all the failed ones since I ported through the Lith. I'll play attrition with you, and I'll win simply because my 20 Necrons can outlast your Sisters (IE, they can outlast you _indefinitely_). Now, at 12"- I'm not so sure because that AP1 is still pretty intimidating and you actually might drop the entire unit in one round of shooting. If you leave just a single Necron Warrior alive though its back to where we started and I'll have about fifteen again next shooting phase. I'd say the sisters are the first I've heard suggested that pose a significant threat. Good selection, Einar.


Keep in mind, you would probably have a Tomb Spyder, those things are great.

But really, Necron Warriors aren't that great a troop choice, sure they're hard to kill, but that's all they have going for them.
In shooting they're only _slightly_ better than a Marine.

*edit*


Iron Angel said:


> Then I shoot you with 40 shots, and then charge YOU


Keep in mind, you're firing a Rapid Fire weapon.
You CAN'T charge after firing.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm going to throw a mention in and my vote to the Dark Eldar Warrior - costing the same as an eldar warrior, and with the similar bells and whistles but having a WS and BS of 4 meaning we can hit things really nicely which makes a great suprise to our opponent when they see them and go "wow 15 warriors just like the eldar ones 12" guns and a BS of 3", only to find out we can hit 24" with guns at a lower strength when need have in my opinion one of the best supresive fire guns in the game namedly the Splinter Cannon. On top of this we can have 4 special weapons per squad and up to 20 men in a squad so for 190 pts we can have 20 warriors 2 splinter cannons (8 assault S4 shots), 2 short range dark lances (known as the blaster) and 32 splinter rifle shots all hitting on 3's. Add to this a sybarite with poison baldes and you can then take on MC's in CC wounding them on 2's.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> one of the best supresive fire guns in the game namedly the Splinter Cannon.


Er, it's 2 Storm Bolters strapped together.
How is that 'supresive fire'?

In this game, there are 2 things which can be considered suppressive fire.
Shooting at someone with a weapon of sufficient AP to beat their armour, forcing them to stay in cover.
Pinning weapons.

The Splinter cannon is neither of those things, as its AP is mediocre, and it doesn't pin.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Ah. In that case, I am bested.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Ah. In that case, I am bested.


Yup- there's a reason that many cron players are calling for a new dex (codex creep has screwed you over: whoever has older codeces is normally going to be weak).
Having said that there are rumours of the new cron dex for early next year (no idea if that is right or not) and they'll be awesome when it gets redone, if the crons dont get a lot more units then I guess warriors will become just about the best troops in the game (since GW cant pimp the elites/fast attack/heavy support units much simply because there arent that many of them troops will have to get better).


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

A man who underestimates a horde of Ork Boyz is a dead man in the very near future.


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