# Loyal Chaos Legions?



## Fluff Master (Nov 11, 2008)

I know what you're thinking; Loyal Chao Legions, what the hell is he talking about? But, if you examine the Horus Heresy Novels you find that it wasn't all "Our Primarchs evil, better go with him." For Some Marines, they stayed loyal towards the Emperor. 
So i was thinking, what about a loyal portion of the, say, Emperor's Children? I always liked their colours and background. So, does anyone know whether you can do that? Make a LOYAL Emperor's Children? And if you can, do they have any special Rules? 
Thanks for all comments.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I don't see why you couldn't have loyal ECs. But they'd be called something else, like, the Really Really Loyal Dead Into Doing What They're Told What Chaos No Not Us Marines.

There are loyal... Word Bearers (I think), and there are persitent rumours of loyal Thousand Sons. There may be other loyal remnants of Chaos Legions.

The question is, what rules should you use? I know of Blood Angels who use the Chaos list, Chaos Marines and Imperial Fists that use the Blood Angels list, and several non-codex chapters that use the Codex SM list. Personally, I'd say Codex SM, Codex CSM, Codex DA, Codex SW, Codex BT and Codex BA are all equally valid for representing marines.

Obviously, if they're loyalists, they're not going to be summoning daemons, but there may be ways to think around some of the most obvious 'chaotic' elements. After all, if Mephiston, Librarian of the Blood Angels, is equal to a Daemon Prince, that must mean that a daemon prince is equal to a SM special character (so you can use the rules for one to represent the other)...

You might want to think about DA as the basis. The EC were famous for their jetbike attacks I believe, and DA has the only Imperial jetbike still flying.

Of course, it would all be much easier if GW just released Codex: Horus Heresy, but maybe it would be less fun!

Good luck!

:encouraging cyclops:


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Of course, it would all be much easier if GW just released Codex: Horus Heresy!


that would be awesome on so many fronts that i dont think that GW could even fathom the idea of it. 

i mean first of all there would be special rules, and possibly models, of the primarchs and the emperor...

second it could actually fix all of GWs problems that contradict each other fluff wise

....*head hurts* my brain has just hurt itself from the logic of the idea


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Tsons are the chapter that I have heard the most about having Splinter loyal ffactions but the names of the chapter escapes me right now. Also rumor has it that the Alpha legion are still loyal as well. Spoiler: Most Loyalist where killed off on Istavan III but some escaped.


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## Fluff Master (Nov 11, 2008)

Alright. So, what if i say that the loyal remnants of the Emperor's Children escaped slaughter and stayed in hiding, out of fear of heresy accusation? And then, they could re-emerge in,say, the first war for armageddon or a Black Crusade under a new name and new colours? 
And, what if i said that chaplains were the company captains because they are the most loyal of the Emperor. Yeah, it's all falling into place. But, if you have better ideas, they're welcome.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Wouldn't the loyalist EC have been tainted beyond redemption by their traitor brothers in the eyes of the imperium and the other SM legions? Tainted enough to be destroyed on contact. I know they could go on a 100 year crusade or something for redemption, but your talking about loyal emperors children and the EC were a founding legion that trashed Terra and helped put the emperor in the golden throne (and not forgetting the slaughter of billions of human civilians and a shite load of marines as well). That's like a cardinal sin, too much to forgive perhaps?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe they could have remained hidden amongst the ranks of the EC until the attack on Terra, only turning on their brothers at the last moment. They switched sides and led a suicide assualt right in the middle of their traitor brothers. This act of self sacrifice was seen by one of the Primarchs and he granted the last remaining survivors a stay of execution, sending them on a 100 year crusade to seek forgiveness.
They leave as a tiny number but decide they will not return until they have cleared their names and have rebuilt their strength.
Ten thousand years later they have fallen into myth, legends and tales tell of a group of fanatical space marines who appear and lead insane attacks against impossible odds. 
Then during the 13th Black Crusade they reappear at full strength fighting in the name of the Emperor.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

The problem with the 'going into hiding' idea is that whenever they did emerge, they would be treated as Heretics, no matter what they said. It would just be seen as a trick. "My Lord, they say they're not heretics!" "Ha, that's what those Alpha Legion johnnies said, I'm not falling for that again! Kill them all!"

Easiest, I think, to say that their repentence was earlier rather than later. As soon as the treachery of Horus was revealed, Fulgrim tried to reason with him but was won over. What if, at that point, some of the ECs fled to Terra, ahead of Horus's fleet?

They could still be sent on a 1,000 year crusade after the Heresy, if you want them to disappear and become legendary. Not a problem. But if you want them to be loyal, they need to have nailed their colours to the Emperor's mast pretty damned quick.

That's my take, anyway. Luckily though, it's your army Fluff Master, and you can do whatever you like! :wink:

:fluffy cyclops:


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## Fluff Master (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for your opinions. I like the idea of a suicide assault. Sounds pretty heroic. The Redemption Crusade is pretty important too, it seems, so that will have to fit in somewhere. I'm hoping this chapter would look and sound pretty sweet in the long run, but only the Emperor knows...
By the way, with the loyal Thousand Sons, would they still have psychic powers, or just be normal marines? And would they be red still? Not that important, just a bit of curiousity. Thanks again for all your help.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

there are loyal chaos legions, for example theres a whole arguement that Blood Ravens were loyal 1000 sons.

and it might be that the Alpha legion is loyal, well not all of it but most of it including their primarch, because their battle cry is "for the emperor" it might be just them mocking or they might mean it, also in "Legion" book Alpharius says he will do whats best for the imperium.


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## Aryx (Nov 6, 2008)

There may be at least one EC that survived. The Ancient Raylanor (sp?) was sent to guard an underground bunker or something before the last bombardment. Being encased in a Dread, even under a bunch of rubble, he most likely survived. And I always thought that it would be cool to have an old, pissed off Dread hunting down his fallen brothers.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Aryx said:


> There may be at least one EC that survived. The Ancient Raylanor (sp?) was sent to guard an underground bunker or something before the last bombardment. Being encased in a Dread, even under a bunch of rubble, he most likely survived. And I always thought that it would be cool to have an old, pissed off Dread hunting down his fallen brothers.


he died during the virus bombing, as the life eater virus entered through minor damage he took during the previous battle.


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## Aryx (Nov 6, 2008)

No, that was Huron-fal (I think that is his name) of the Death Guard. He and I believe it was Temeter blew them selves up to cheat the traitors out of their deaths via the viral bomb.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Wouldn't the loyalist EC have been tainted beyond redemption by their traitor brothers in the eyes of the imperium and the other SM legions? Tainted enough to be destroyed on contact. I know they could go on a 100 year crusade or something for redemption, but your talking about loyal emperors children and the EC were a founding legion that trashed Terra and helped put the emperor in the golden throne (and not forgetting the slaughter of billions of human civilians and a shite load of marines as well). That's like a cardinal sin, too much to forgive perhaps?


This was not always the case in the fiction. For example Nathaniel Garro (Death Guard) remained loyal along with dozens of his men and they elude to him being a founder of the inquisition. I have not read it yet, but a buddy told me that in "Battle for the Abyss" there are loyalist world eaters, Sons of Horus and even a 1000 son who fight against the Word Bearers.

IMO, more than likely there were many loyalist marines in all of the traitor legions. Istavaan III proves that (so many so Horus had to postpone his attack for months dealing with them). The only Legion that may not have any loyalist might be the word bearers... but I wouldn't be suprised if there were even a few loyalist there. With the new found spirituality Keeler is bringing they may have held out believing the emp is god.

I used to like Chaos a lot more than I do now. Some of the char. in the books you have to feel a bit sorry for. Both sides of the same coin would be Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim. Both destroyed by chaos, one fighting for - one agianst.

DO NOT SUFFER THE HERETIC TO LIVE!!!


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## zaceee (May 23, 2008)

Im pretty sure alpha legion is sort of loyal in a round about way, i forgot where i read this , but apparently the illuminati contacted them, before the heresy, and warned alpharius? (or the omegus guy) that if a heresy started, it would fall upon which side their legion took, if they fought for the emporer, then the emporer would fail, if they fought for horus, the emporer would win eventually, now, wether that was true, or just the illuminati being annoying, and trying to create as many deaths as possible, i dont know, but it suggests that the alpha legion are loyal, in a very twisted way, and explains why their battle cry is "for the emporer", because they still think they are helping him by supporting chaos.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

yea son of mortarion that was huron fal, a death gaurd dreadnought that got killed in the virus bombing. ancient rylanor was sent by tarvitz to protect some hangar beneath the palace that he had found. who knows maybe rylanor and a few loyalists still sit in there waiting to be found, but i have a hunch that once horus and his lackeys left they booked it. also a loyalist faction of the Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors and Night Lords were discovered or showed up on terra to fight for the emperor. The Emperor's Children faction was a FA company that was stranded in some system for years that spanned the heresy, they were sent on a redemption crusade and renamed the Screamin Hawks. The Iron Warriors were a grand company that left for terra and were renamed the Angels of Iron, it was the same deal for the Night Lords but they were renamed the Angels of Glory or something like that.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

I dunno, if they came outta hiding they definately would be branded as traitors unless they were able to get back to Terra before the battles at Mars and Earth... Can't say I'd believe a ragtag bunch saying they're loyal! As for Alpha Legion, I don't think they really are followers of Chaos, they have open minds is all, and like the Soul Drinkers have been branded evil because of choices they make which seem to aid the Imperium. The Battle for the Abyss happened before those Marines (World Eater etc) really knew what was going on, and in true TSons fashion the lowly guy used his powers to save the others despite what the Space Wolf and others thought to be Heretical! That's why I don't think Ahriman's crew really are followers of Chaos, but again just have open minds. 

Should be interesting to see what you come up with with the idea you got!!


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

I didn't know any of that stuff about the Screaming Angels and the Angels of Iron. I had always hoped the Imperium would allow some loyalists to live. Must have been really tense when they first turned up with all their traitor colours. Makes sense to rename them, mind.

As for the tsons, I personally think they are chaos. I wouldn't say they were originally chaos but Magnus did open himself to Tzeentch to save his legion and I believe he is now a deamon prince like many of the others. Arihman is definitely chaos, he is a nutter, driven solely by his desire to know everything. Obviously most the Tsons are not chaos or imperial or human. Automans don't really have an opinion.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

HorusReborn said:


> I dunno, if they came outta hiding they definately would be branded as traitors unless they were able to get back to Terra before the battles at Mars and Earth... Can't say I'd believe a ragtag bunch saying they're loyal! As for Alpha Legion, I don't think they really are followers of Chaos, they have open minds is all, and like the Soul Drinkers have been branded evil because of choices they make which seem to aid the Imperium. The Battle for the Abyss happened before those Marines (World Eater etc) really knew what was going on, and in true TSons fashion the lowly guy used his powers to save the others despite what the Space Wolf and others thought to be Heretical! That's why I don't think Ahriman's crew really are followers of Chaos, but again just have open minds.
> 
> Should be interesting to see what you come up with with the idea you got!!


Sorry about rylanor, I must have gotten them mixed up.

If they had to get back to terra before the battle mfor mars, they would have been too late as the battle for mars was approximately the same time as the mopping up of IsstvanIII, they would have not had enough time to get back to terra. There is no such thing as "they just have open minds" in the 40k universe, it ain't that nice. If a Psyker had an "open mind" they would be either a pawn of xenos or chaos in short time.

As for Ahriman, he is definitely a chaos worshiper. At no point was ha intended to be heroic, he is named after the persian god that became the Christian satan, after all. The eldar would not be so concerned about his quest to reach the black library.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

actually it says in the chaos codex that ahriman desnot worship chaos,he merely uses it.still hes no loyalist!All the loyal ec died (exept maybe that dread...)coz lucius and the over guy(cant remember his name but he got tricked)butchered them


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Where do they say Ancient Raylnor goes tot he hanger? I am up to Battle for the Abyss in the HH series and I don't remember that bit at all. I like the idea of course but is there some other source for HH fluff other than random bits in different codexes?

Also the Alpha Legion seem to be closer to Impartial than anything. I mean they do attack and terrorize the Imperium but can you really attack and terrorize chaos? I haven't read a ton about them mind you but it seems they with clash with anyone they want and do their own things for themselves for the most part so I don't think it's fair to put them on any particular side. I'd actually like to see an Alpha Legion codex one day that lets their marines be more impartial and allows them a selection of non-CSMish units like what Imperial Guard rules represent well but with more specialization and uniqueness. I mean I'd love to have such an army led by marine characters with something like storm troopers for the main infantry, though with variations in storm trooper units, then have some mid scale artillery support. (Mid-scale as in not small as heavy weapon teams but not as large as basilisks.

I think the Thousand Sons are a lot of things of course but even the ones that are likely not worshipers of chaos are effectively under the power of chaos in some way since psychers and warp magics are the substance of the warp. Though don't kill me since travelling through the warp is using the warp too and thusly everything but Tyranids are chaos since that is going overboard with the idea.


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## joebob (Dec 15, 2008)

your loyalists ec where brought into the hawk lords sm chapter cuz ec colors were purple with gold trim just like the hawk lords there was only a hand full but i believe thats how the hawklords came into excistence


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Fluff Master said:


> I know what you're thinking; Loyal Chao Legions, what the hell is he talking about? But, if you examine the Horus Heresy Novels you find that it wasn't all "Our Primarchs evil, better go with him."


personally i wouldn't 'examine' the HH novels if i wanted to understand the background further. the more they write the less relevance they seem to bear to the background of the game at the moment. its like they describe a weird alternate history of the game. whether they will tie these disperate things together in the end has yet to be seen, but some how i doubt it.

the whole concept that Marines from the traitorous Legions were allowed back into the Imperial fold (and possibly even to form the Grey Knights) rather pisses in the face of the Dark Angels background. the whole point is that the traitors were in some sence predisposed to joining forces with Chaos (genetically, psychologically or whatever), its one of the things that we are told the Codex Astartes was introduced to make sure never happend again (by strictly controlling what genetic material was used in future foundings). the very nature of being a Space Marine is to be 'tarred with the same brush' as you chapter, legion and all other Space Marines. its the reason that the Dark Angels strive so zealously to purge themselves of the Fallen, to prove that they are not going to faulter. they cannot let a single one escape and must hunt them down, because the alternative is just to accept that they will all eventually succumb.

its an interesting speculation and a fun modelling project, but i don't presonally think that the idea adds any weight to the background at all (it just makes the greatest threat to the stability of the Imperium seem that bit less threatening). however, its not all that interesting because if there were enough guys left after the Heresy to form an army, then they would look and act exactly as they did before the Heresy. so you'd be just as well to collect a Pre-heresy army.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

As Lord Lucius said, Ahriman does not worship chaos. He is after the fabled Black Library to gain access to the secrets it harbours. Rumour has it that he wants to use the knowledge within the Black Library to reverse the course of history and stop the Thousand Sons going over to Tzeentch.

EDIT: spelling


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

It has pretty much stated in his "Heroes and Villains" article that Ahriman wants the knowledge of the Black Library in order to master Chaos and ascend to godhood.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

what makes you think Ahriman doesn't worship Chaos? what eactly do you think Chaos worship entails? does one need to 'love' Chaos, to be a Chaos Worshiper?

the background would seem to suggest not. people usually come to chaos for selfish means but become fodder for it, like a fly to a venus fly-trap. caring little for the deity's machinations and becoming disgruntled at their lack of attention and favour for you does not stop you being a Chaos worshiper.

in fact we are told repeatedly that Sorcery _is _equivalent to a form a Chaos worship, as opposed to the more appropriate use of warp power. and there is no way that you could say that Ahriman is not a sorcerer.


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## Salvor (Jul 7, 2008)

But weren't the legions originally made up of earth based marines, and only once the primarch's had been found were there home worlds/systems given over to the recruitment of there legions?
So perhaps the ties of planet/primarch weren't as strong as some of the newer marines.
In the HH novels we do have a lot of splinter groups of the traitor legions still remaining loyal too the emperor.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> what makes you think Ahriman doesn't worship Chaos? what eactly do you think Chaos worship entails? does one need to 'love' Chaos, to be a Chaos Worshiper?
> 
> the background would seem to suggest not. people usually come to chaos for selfish means but become fodder for it, like a fly to a venus fly-trap. caring little for the deity's machinations and becoming disgruntled at their lack of attention and favour for you does not stop you being a Chaos worshiper.
> 
> in fact we are told repeatedly that Sorcery _is _equivalent to a form a Chaos worship, as opposed to the more appropriate use of warp power. and there is no way that you could say that Ahriman is not a sorcerer.


Worship is different to belief, i think you have merged the two together. By definition, to worship is the 'reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, or a sacred object'. I'm afraid the Oxford dictionary trumps your definition of worship :good:

Now belief is 'an accepted truth'. i.e. one must manipulate the warp to use sorcery/psychic abilities. If that means calling upon the power of chaos then so be it but this in itself is not worship. Otherwise the Emperor would worship Chaos. :nono:

Regarding Ahriman, as i said my suggestion was just a rumour so any enlightenment is appreciated


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fluff'Ead said:


> It has pretty much stated in his "Heroes and Villains" article that Ahriman wants the knowledge of the Black Library in order to master Chaos and ascend to godhood.


Indeed thats what the fluff says. :good:

But i refuse to believe that gaining all the knowledge in the Black Library of Chaos would enable one to master Chaos.

The Library is the surviving source of Eldar knowledge concerning Chaos, how can mortals have the knowledge which would enable one to master that which cannot be comprehended let alone understood or mastered. Notably it contains valuable information, including a copy of the Book of Magnus, but it would not enable one to master Chaos. 

If anything allows one to master Chaos it would be the Hidden Library not the Black Library!

And also if it contains the knowledge to give one the ability to master Chaos, why havn't the Harlequins done so? surely they could master Chaos and destroy/limit it?

Notably it would give Ahriman untold power if he was able to gain entry to it, but not the ability to master Chaos itself.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed thats what the fluff says. :good:
> 
> But i refuse to believe that gaining all the knowledge in the Black Library of Chaos would enable one to master Chaos.
> 
> ...


Very good point.

What would the Black Library allow Ahriman to do? Could he actually go back and change history or would he just be uber knowledgeable and powerful? I like to think there's some greater purpose than just power, or should i say to increase his abilities to rule over that which he could not do so before.


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## General Panic (Jul 31, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> The Emperor's Children faction was a FA company..... renamed the Screamin Hawks. The Iron Warriors were a grand company that left for terra and were renamed the Angels of Iron, it was the same deal for the Night Lords but they were renamed the Angels of Glory or something like that.


Er, where on earth did you get that snippet from?


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But i refuse to believe that gaining all the knowledge in the Black Library of Chaos would enable one to master Chaos.


It's probably all part of one Tzeentchs master plans. Originally Magnus wanted to kill Ahriman for his rubric spell but then he heard the words "Magnusss, you would ssmash my pawns too readiliy." 

By serving himself, Ahriman might actually only serve Tzeentch.



> And also if it contains the knowledge to give one the ability to master Chaos, why havn't the Harlequins done so? surely they could master Chaos and destroy/limit it?


1) Ahriman could be wrong about mastering Chaos, which is what Tzeentch anticipated.
2) Some, if not many tomes of the Black Library might too dangerous for the uncorrupted to be studied.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fluff'Ead said:


> It's probably all part of one Tzeentchs master plans. Originally Magnus wanted to kill Ahriman for his rubric spell but then he heard the words "Magnusss, you would ssmash my pawns too readiliy."
> 
> By serving himself, Ahriman might actually only serve Tzeentch.
> 
> ...


Firstly ok it could be one of Tzeentch's schemes, but this doesn't mean that someone who gained entrence to the Black Library would be able to Master Chaos. 

Remember Tzeentch already knows everything that is in the Black Library.

And i guess its a plausable argument that the Harlequins don't want to risk corruption by studying all of the tomes. :good:


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## krusty (Jun 16, 2008)

Didnt Loken survive (interview in white dwarf asking if we would see the return of Loken and was told cant possibly say).The survivng marines in the palace were bombed (Saul tarvitz,My personal opinion the best character ever by games workshop fluff wise) and in Battle for abyss there were stations were squads of marines of all different legions were based for special missions(kinda like special ops troops today). The iron warriors were used to garrison a load of worlds so there could be another source of non traitor traitor marines. You already had garro and qruze at the sisters of silence base on the moon who knew which marines werent traitors so they probably would have given the names when they were debriefed/interrogated as well as the remebrancers. Since they gave an early warning there words would have had some weight.
Also the alpha legion,with there habit of pretending to be other chapters,probab;y have some of their old companies posing as other chapters and for the eye of terror didnt it say that an area was cleared of chaos and declared as been taken over by an unknown chapter (potential traitior legion,renegade chapter)


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