# GW's Prices



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

This is not a bitch-thread. Posts bitching about prices will be reported as attempts at thread-jacking.

That bit of warning aside, I had an idea roll around in my head for a while now and I wanted to talk about it, preferably in an adult manner. Read the entire post before you hit "New Post" and start bashing me though, it makes more sense when you do.

I've come to the conclusion that GW's relationship with Independent Stores may actually be to blame for the price increases.

Before people start taking that out of context or yelling at me, keep reading.

GW has an agreement with a number of Independent Stores (aka the Level 1 Stockists) which stipulates that they will never undersell the Independents. Now while GW _can_ change this, if they do they'll end up losing these guaranteed sales that they make to the Independents. 

Additionally, when GW makes a price increase and the Independents follow by increasing their price as well the Independents make more profit off their existing stock, creating a winning situation. Those who don't do it on their existing stock make more by selling the cheaper stock until they run out, still netting them a tidy profit.

Either way the Independents make a rather steady bit of cash as long as GW doesn't cut prices. Doing this will elicit the natural reaction of many independent stores cutting ties with GW, and generally hit GW, at least in the short term.

So here's where we sit: to preserve ties with the Independents GW can't have sales, can't cut prices, and is only left with one option to ensure they still have profits every year (outside of the changes to the stores, because even that doesn't cover the problems of funding new products and training new employees, ect): raise prices.

TL;DR: The FLGS is why GW doesn't cut prices, hold sales, ect. It's too risky for them at this time to try and run a loss leader with their product at this time. If the economy wasn't in the shitter we might see a different GW, but for now expect things to continue this trend until the reward of taking prices down (thus enticing us to buy more) outweighs the risk (the loss of profits by alienating the Independents).


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

Or don't raise prices and the stockists sell at the MSRP they originally planned for, making the margin they planned for, making the profit they planned for.

Your theory posits GW has to constantly raise prices to allow stockists to sell "cheaper" or sell higher with original stock, making a larger profit.

Don't you think that is entirely unsustainable?

Maybe GW raises prices cause they need to constantly chase higher profit margins because they're publicly traded. Just like every other publicly traded company selling a good like GW. It isn't evil. It isn't wrong. It's just capitalism.

I think if you ask Independents, they'll for the most part not agree that GW is doing ANYTHING to assist them with the price raises besides push gamers to the Independents other stocked games.

Which there you go, is just a valid a theory of GW helping Independents: they help Independents by driving consumers to new games that they have to buy in to. Hahaha!


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

I'll be interested to see how this thread develops.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only logical problem i see is that the independents pay GW roughly 1/3-1/2 of MSRP (so GW is probably only making a 25-45% "sale" - im estimating here) the rest of the MSRP price is profit for the Independents.

I still fail to see how GW cant have "online only" or "in GW stores only" sales every so often.

nor can i see GW not putting in the WD "manufacturer's coupons" if you buy X amount or Y amount off of a box Z or higher.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

GW sells to their high selling independents at 50% list, the others buy at 65% list. There is a lot of wiggle room there for profit. The reason they do what they do is because people are still buying. Until they hit the point where price increases seriously impact sales they have no reason not to continue raising prices.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

notsoevil said:


> Or don't raise prices and the stockists sell at the MSRP they originally planned for, making the margin they planned for, making the profit they planned for.


Inflation eventually will force them to raise prices anyways with this model.



notsoevil said:


> Your theory posits GW has to constantly raise prices to allow stockists to sell "cheaper" or sell higher with original stock, making a larger profit.
> 
> Don't you think that is entirely unsustainable?


Yes.



notsoevil said:


> Maybe GW raises prices cause they need to constantly chase higher profit margins because they're publicly traded. Just like every other publicly traded company selling a good like GW. It isn't evil. It isn't wrong. It's just capitalism.


True, it's not evil or wrong. I never claimed it was. The thing is that when you read the recent Press Release you see that large gross turn into a much smaller net. GW is in the black, but not by nearly as much as they could be. The price raises provide a buffer to keep them in the black.



notsoevil said:


> I think if you ask Independents, they'll for the most part not agree that GW is doing ANYTHING to assist them with the price raises besides push gamers to the Independents other stocked games.


They aren't actively attempting to screw them over either. Not every relationship involves all parties to be bed-fellows, but they need to at least be working on some kind of mutual understanding of each other.



notsoevil said:


> Which there you go, is just a valid a theory of GW helping Independents: they help Independents by driving consumers to new games that they have to buy in to. Hahaha!


That wasn't what I said at all. I said GW has hog tied themselves into only being able to raise prices to prevent from losing the independents who are a steady source of income. Losing the independents by lowering prices would hurt GW in the short term until things balanced back out again, and even then it would take time for GW to build up that buffer to keep them in securely in the black.

The long and short of it was that GW isn't raising prices in some kind of malicious scheme to price people out of the hobby, or even chase off independents or veterans/new players. It's to keep from driving off steady sources of income while trying to keep the company running in a profitable manner.

New molds, equipment parts, leases, employee training, recruitment efforts, and even the cost of the basic materials that go into the models we buy all cost something. If GW lost that steady source of Independent income they'd be hurting a lot more than they are now. 

TL;DR: I was talking about GW trying to protect the bottom line in a way that wouldn't put them out of business in this economy, not about GW doing anything special to support Independents. It's a buisness strategy that will eventually become unsustainable, but hopefully the economy will level out and things will gain some normalcy before that occurs and we see GW have to _really_ tighten the belt.


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## Leonardo (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm fine with the prices to be honest, I can only paint a certain amount within a month which limits the amount I spend more than my financial situation. Obviously for a youngster without a job/income the prices are high, but it was that way for me as a child 15+ years ago. I only got stuff from GW on birthdays and Xmas'.

Also for me, I am fine with them charging what they want. I buy things based on a number of criteria, generally based on my desire to own the product and cost. 

I'm just glad they are riding out the recession and are around for me to enjoy. Too many companies have gone out of business over the past years and that depresses me more.

I would expect GW to have a financing department whose sole purpose is to make the company maximum profits based on statistics and cost and whatever else, and I don't believe these people need to care about the fans or product because that is not their job.

I think ultimately prices have gone up as a result of everything else going up (materials, tools, etc...).

People would buy from GW direct if independant stores did not sell their product, there is a lot of negativity regarding GW policy and prices everywhere I look on the internet and people are still buying the product, playing the games, visiting the forums, etc.. Also I understand GW would rather not sell through independant stores? I might be mistaken on that...

It is the world we are living in and during these hard times people need to support the things they love with their wallets if they want them to stay around.

An interesting thought but I can't see it to be honest.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Fallen said:


> the only logical problem i see is that the independents pay GW roughly 1/3-1/2 of MSRP (so GW is probably only making a 25-45% "sale" - im estimating here) the rest of the MSRP price is profit for the Independents.
> 
> I still fail to see how GW cant have "online only" or "in GW stores only" sales every so often.
> 
> nor can i see GW not putting in the WD "manufacturer's coupons" if you buy X amount or Y amount off of a box Z or higher.


Consider it this way: GW sells a box of Marines for $35 USD. An Independent pays about $17.50. That means the Independent makes $17.50 on a box of Marines, maybe less. Now say GW has a sale on Marines and they go for $30 instead. 

Now those Marines are sitting on the shelves unsold because people were buying Marines from GW for a little cheaper. To a store owner unsold product is lost money. It actually hurts them to have product not moving out of the store, and if GW is having a sale they may feel pressured to match that sale to ensure they can still move that product.

That box of Marines now makes them $12.50 because they price-matched. Now you're big online retailers that resell through third parties globally for cheaper, or get the product for cheap and sell it cheap (as some sell for as much as 20% off online) make up that lower profit margin by selling bulk.

But your small FLGS relies on that profit margin to continue making money and keep the store open.

Now let's look at that same $35 box of Marines. Say GW bumps their price up to $40, now that FLGS is making an additional $5 a box off the stuff they already have, _or_ if they don't raise their price, still making the same amount per box off the old merchandise, selling more as people won't buy from the online store or the local GW if they can get it cheaper at the FLGS, and eventually the price at the FLGS goes up anyways and the FLGS goes back to keeping the same profit margin on their merchandise again.

This is why a price drop would drive away Independents, too many of them would be soured by the way they feel GW had slighted them, and stop supporting GW.

This means GW stops selling products, and then stops making as much money. Then their profit margin drops, then they stop looking like they're doing so good as they go from being in the black and start going towards the red. Because let's be honest here: it's expensive to run GW.

And I think GW is pretty aware of this potential problem too.

Also, just like not all grocery stores honour manufacturer's coupons, not all FLGS would either. This would create rifts as well.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Honesty I don't think GW cares that much about independent stores. From the few discussions I have had with local stores it is not even remotely like your saying. A lot of the smaller independents go thru distributors because they do not have enough volume of sales to deal directly with GW. One of the local players got a few of the Houston stores up and going. He still has a lot of the documentation from it. Even in big cities many stores deal with s distributor instead of GW direct.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

There's a few theories floating around that GW are/have used the Aussie prices as a benchmark for what their customer base will actually pay for their models...and will start applying that price ceiling across the board in every country.

You just have to take a look at those Threads that crop up every now and then, when someone from the UK, etc, has selected the wrong flag and got Aus $ prices instead of £ prices....and shit themselves. Then you'll have a better understanding of the pain us Aussies feel (and kiwis, etc), and calls of 'suck it up' might not be so forthcoming.

The other Theory is that GW are rising prices until the amount of profit they get from supplying Indies, etc, actually equals the profit they want to achieve...and they ain't at that point yet.

GW are making profits from their current business model, but I can't see how anyone can argue that less customers paying higher prices year over year is a sustainable business model...not in the long haul anyway.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

@Zion, i know and understand why GW wont drop prices (at least now), but them dropping prices and them having a sale for the week/weekend of X week are two entirely different things.

I work at officeMax (an office supply store) and our online store often has "OfficeMax online only" sales that we cannot match. GW should be able to, if they want, to have in store sales or online sales at their whim, they are NOT dealing with the Independents at all and GW is still getting profits due to increased sales.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with Hobo's comment but in some areas of aus the business model runs into some difficulties. Because of the higher prices,and the lower population densities in much of regional aus the independents shift so little product that they go to the wall. The international embargo also hurts their sales because everyone is buying off ebay and any alternatives they can(i use forgeworld funnily enough). However there are some aussie onliners who are doing ok but their prices are considerably marked down compared to gw. A maulerfiend is $71.99 instead of $90.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

HOBO said:


> You just have to take a look at those Threads that crop up every now and then, when someone from the UK, etc, has selected the wrong flag and got Aus $ prices instead of £ prices....and shit themselves. Then you'll have a better understanding of the pain us Aussies feel (and kiwis, etc), and calls of 'suck it up' might not be so forthcoming.


GW like to have stores on the ground, and my understanding is that th cost of running a store in Aus was much higher than other parts of the world, hence the higher prices to sustain any shops (independent or GW). Basically you have a higher basic cost of living you will pay a higher cost for luxuries. The embargo has just closed a nice little loop hole Aus seems to have by buying things of the internet from international suppliers.

As for the lowering prices or sales by GW its not going to happen. Sales are designed to increase through put of stock and bring in customers who would otherwise go to another retailer. GW don’t have this problem. If you want a Grey Knight figure, only GW provides this product so you must get it through them in some way. The other reason for sales it to get rid of old stock, which is another problem GW don’t have. How many plastics have actually been fully replaced in recent years? 

I normally get my figures through various independents and GW stores, and will continue to do so as long as the price does not become to exorbitant. GW are not the dark enemy that most people perceive them to be. In fact if they were would they still have such a massive following?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Fallen said:


> @Zion, i know and understand why GW wont drop prices (at least now), but them dropping prices and them having a sale for the week/weekend of X week are two entirely different things.
> 
> I work at officeMax (an office supply store) and our online store often has "OfficeMax online only" sales that we cannot match. GW should be able to, if they want, to have in store sales or online sales at their whim, they are NOT dealing with the Independents at all and GW is still getting profits due to increased sales.


why does your company have a sale? why does any company have a sale?
the answer is to clear out stock, any company who buys in stock to sell has a sale every now and again to clear out slow selling ot non selling stock to make way for new stock and to recoup the investment they made in that stock.

When you are the manufacture and the retailer you dont need to do those things, if you produce too much stock you just dont make any more till you need it, if you made too little stock you manufacture more to meet demand.

GW could do more in terms of promoting its self, but who would it promote it to? is there anything GW could do that would really make any difference to how you spend your money or make you spend more than you already do?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I have to agree with Humakt, Aussie prices are not that disproportionate compared to anywhere else in the world once you factor in things like general cost of living and % of wages ect. Australia was, if anything, spoiled by low prices for a long time, you got used to it and when GW put a stop to it you found out what it costs the rest of the world. 

GW are a company, a business, and they are in the business of making money, its what they do. Their blurb is that they make 'the best toy soldiers in the world', they then sell these toy soldiers for a premium because they really do believe they are the best in the world at what they do. 

As a fan of much of what GW produce I have to accept that there is a price tag that goes along with the hobby I want to be a part of, if something is too expensive for me to justify the purchase, I don't get it or I save for it or get it cheap on Ebay, I don't stamp my feet and claim to know more than them about the business they have been successful in for decades. The same as I wouldn't walk into an Aston Martin dealership and demand they lower their prices because I love their cars and want to own one. 

As for sales or money off vouchers and such, GW have no reason to do this at all, for the reasons Humakt has already listed above. Also there will always be a finite number of people who will ever get into wargaming, its not for everyone and GW understand this. If GW were to sell a box of 10 SM's for £5 a pop, would their sales really go up by any real noticeable amount? 

I doubt it. 

GW will always be in a position where they are selling a limited amount of stock to a limited number of people, nerds, geeks and oddballs. They are not mainstream and never will be, no matter how much all of us nerds, geeks and oddballs may think otherwise.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The problem is again the business model. There are only 20-odd million people in aus, in a country of similar area to the us, of course bricks and mortar shops wont work properly. The benefits of dedicated stores are plain to see but if they wont work here then change the model. Indies and online, fine, we will happily pay the required postage but dont continue to gouge us for non existent other benefits. I dont mind paying for the hobby, but artificially inflated prices over and above that which is reasonable. Would you pay it? Especially when I can by many GW products from a GW SUBSIDIARY completly legit for 30%less. Look at forgeworld.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Fallen said:


> @Zion, i know and understand why GW wont drop prices (at least now), but them dropping prices and them having a sale for the week/weekend of X week are two entirely different things.
> 
> I work at officeMax (an office supply store) and our online store often has "OfficeMax online only" sales that we cannot match. GW should be able to, if they want, to have in store sales or online sales at their whim, they are NOT dealing with the Independents at all and GW is still getting profits due to increased sales.


Bits already covered sales, but I wanted to point out something else too:

GW supplies other stores with their product that they make in house, Office Max does not.

Office Max either runs their stores as branches of the company or franchises, but either way they're not worried about screwing themselves over, but GW has to be aware of it's independent partners.

I know it's been said that GW doesn't do anything to actively assist the Independents, but I still think that GW is fully aware of the consequences of what will happen if they screw them over.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> The problem is again the business model. There are only 20-odd million people in aus, in a country of similar area to the us, of course bricks and mortar shops wont work properly. The benefits of dedicated stores are plain to see but if they wont work here then change the model. Indies and online, fine, we will happily pay the required postage but dont continue to gouge us for non existent other benefits. I dont mind paying for the hobby, but artificially inflated prices over and above that which is reasonable. Would you pay it? Especially when I can by many GW products from a GW SUBSIDIARY completly legit for 30%less. Look at forgeworld.


 Im not sure why people feel this way towards stores,i can only assume that IF a GW store model doesnt work then neither does any other shop in your nation? A GW store is a shop just like any other, it has four walls a roof ,stock and staff to sell the stuff, How is that any different to anything else on your highstreets and shopping centers? plus 12 of the 20 million population live 5 of the cities, thats like shooting fish in a barrel for a retailer, this will also be part of the reason your prices are high, with populations that large in a few cities the retail rents will be massive,you will be talking london,paris,new york level rents for somewhere like Sydney, even if GW puts roots down in more out of the way locations the rents and rates of stores will be much higher than somewhere like Fulchester in the UK.

How would people get into the hobby in your nation without the GW stores? the indies exist because GW stores exist, i would go as far as to say without GW stores, fantasy/scifi wargaming wouldnt exist now, All the gamers i have met personally have been directly influenced to start the hobby by there first few visits to the GW stores in there area.

I think alot of people will start going back to the high street in general very soon, alot of the postal companies around the world are making grumbles about making more money( royal mail loses money every year) and thats gonna mean people are going to have to pay much more money to get items mailed to them, USPS has already increased is prices this year, that gonna impact on mail order prices, i think free postage is gonna be a thing of the past for many companies as petrol prices keep going up, i have had a warning from royal mail this month to expect further prices hikes from them, which after last year was a bit of a shock considering the massive increase and VAT added to many services, I think as consumers we have had it very good for a while and the true cost of internet shopping is about to come home with a bang.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> How would people get into the hobby in your nation without the GW stores? the indies exist because GW stores exist, i would go as far as to say without GW stores, fantasy/scifi wargaming wouldnt exist now, All the gamers i have met personally have been directly influenced to start the hobby by there first few visits to the GW stores in there area.


While I agree with pretty much everything else you've said I have to disagree about the stores, on a purely personal basis. I got into 40K through friends at school and a local computer store that sold GW stuff, along with D&D and a few other bits and bobs. They didn't have any gaming tables and weren't particularly helpful either, only one or two members of staff had any idea what any of the wargaming/roleplaying stuff was and unless it was 2nd ed AD&D they were not interested. My closest GW was miles away, I didn't visit one for years and wasn't that impressed when I did, being swooped upon by a prick trying to pressure me into buying everything in the store was not what I expected or wanted. 
I understand the job the stores do and that many people get into gaming through GW stores but to say that its the only way to get into wargaming or that wargaming wouldn't exist without them is going a little too far in my opinion. None of the group I used to play with ever visited a GW but we still had a thriving roleplay/wargame scene at school.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Seems like other model companies are starting up quite regular now, usually with their own games to go with them. Gw has stopped sponsoring tournaments, correct? Meaning you don't necessarily need to use GW models anymore.

With what you have discussed about there being some high prioce point where sales are affected and these other companies coming in to cover more and more models at lower prices, there will be some "breaking point" here soon where GW sales will be affected significantly.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Suijin said:


> Seems like other model companies are starting up quite regular now, usually with their own games to go with them. Gw has stopped sponsoring tournaments, correct? Meaning you don't necessarily need to use GW models anymore.
> 
> With what you have discussed about there being some high prioce point where sales are affected and these other companies coming in to cover more and more models at lower prices, there will be some "breaking point" here soon where GW sales will be affected significantly.


I'd have to say that "soon" is a relative term. GW might be feeling the squeeze now, or it might take a few years. 

Just to clear something up before people get the wrong idea going: I don't want it to be said that I _like_ paying a lot for these models, afterall, I'm not rich and will be soon dealig with the job market like a lot of people, but that doesn't mean I can't understand what seems to be goig on here: GW's own setup, while it works fine when the economy was booming seems to be hurting it.

But that's just my uneducated guess.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

About the only thing that may change GW approach to their customers is someone popping up and giving them some real competition but even then I'm not so sure. The new competitor would need to be offering something that not only undercuts GW but is of an equal or higher quality. 
Although, with the recent WoC release I think there may be a few companies out there offering better miniatures at the moment, they just need to sort out the pricing, background, customer support and highstreet presence.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I think many of the independent retailers could handle a WD coupon. Very few sell just GW. And it would also drive up their WD sales. And as with all manufacturer coupons, the retailer still makes what they always make. The funny thing about coupons is what people will do to get them. Buying a $10 magazine(that you don't normally buy) just to get 1 or 2 $5 off coupons doesn't save you any money. Even a WD subscriber will only save $1.66 if they get 2 coupons. 

It is a good theory for why prices go up and probably pretty close to reality. I only hope GW realizes quite a few of us can't afford certain tanks, Flyers and MCs. And there are ways to lower prices without undercutting independent retailers.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> I think many of the independent retailers could handle a WD coupon. Very few sell just GW. And it would also drive up their WD sales. And as with all manufacturer coupons, the retailer still makes what they always make. The funny thing about coupons is what people will do to get them. Buying a $10 magazine(that you don't normally buy) just to get 1 or 2 $5 off coupons doesn't save you any money. Even a WD subscriber will only save $1.66 if they get 2 coupons.
> 
> It is a good theory for why prices go up and probably pretty close to reality. I only hope GW realizes quite a few of us can't afford certain tanks, Flyers and MCs. And there are ways to lower prices without undercutting independent retailers.


I'm actually pretty glad to hear that my theory sounds like it has some clout. It's always nice to hear that you don't sound like that crazy guy who lives in a room with walls plastered with newspaper clippings and red string connecting things.

The big independents would be able to handle it, but I know of independents (like on in my home town) that get most of their income from GW. They support Magic and recently Warmachine, but their primary source of income for years has been GW products. A sale like that would shoot them in the foot pretty bad. And if there is one of those, there are likely a lot more.

I'm not saying that sales, or other methods are a bad idea, but with how GW handles all it's casting in house I can't imagine them having a massive surplus of things, especially if they only cast when stock gets below a certian number (or is projected to) (as GW seems to be following the LEAN method, where they keep the lowest possible amount of stock on hand of items to keep from wasting money by having too much stock sitting about) which means to support a sale GW would actually need to spend money to ensure they could potentially make money.

And honestly I'm sure someone has done a lot of work on the potential risk/reward on this and found it to be too much risk for the reward. GW's Bean Counters seem to be pretty good at their jobs as they've kept GW out of financial hot water thus far.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Zion said:


> If the economy wasn't in the shitter we might see a different GW, but for now expect things to continue this trend until the reward of taking prices down (thus enticing us to buy more) outweighs the risk (the loss of profits by alienating the Independents)


GW, being a profit driven company, will never lower their prices, whatever the economic situation. They can't even give a price break on their new army bundles, which is what practically every other company would do when offering multi unit bundles like this. They never have had, or never will have a sale, offer discounts or reward long time customers.



notsoevil said:


> I think if you ask Independents, they'll for the most part not agree that GW is doing ANYTHING to assist them with the price raises besides push gamers to the Independents other stocked games.


This. The club I game with plays at an LGS, and in the last year several of us have moved away from 40k altogether into other systems stocked there. _Flames of War_ and _Infinity _seem to be the biggest winners in this situation.



HOBO said:


> GW are making profits from their current business model, but I can't see how anyone can argue that less customers paying higher prices year over year is a sustainable business model...not in the long haul anyway.


Exactly. From my experience there seems to be a massive bleed of players from the hobby in general, especially since 6th Ed came out. And for the most part they are veterans of the hobby going all the way back to Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed, who have good jobs and plenty of disposable income to throw at a hobby. They are the ones that would support that type of business model, but for a number of reasons over the last year they are now throwing that money at the likes of Battlefront, West Wind, Privateer Press etc. 



bitsandkits said:


> GW could do more in terms of promoting its self, but who would it promote it to? is there anything GW could do that would really make any difference to how you spend your money or make you spend more than you already do?


There was a time when GW spent fortunes on advertising the likes of Hero Quest and Space Crusade. That particular venture netted most of the gamers that I know around my age. I know it's a completely different environment now, they would have to compete with the likes of the console giants as well, but simpy relying on word of mouth isn't a viable marketing strategy any more.



normtheunsavoury said:


> About the only thing that may change GW approach to their customers is someone popping up and giving them some real competition but even then I'm not so sure. The new competitor would need to be offering something that not only undercuts GW but is of an equal or higher quality.


Any new kid on the block simply could not compete with the behemoth that GW has become with regards to quality of product. Whatever we say about them, their models are fantastic. The progression over the last 20 years could not be matched by by anybody else in the market at the moment, never mind a new start up. Also, the customer base they have built up in areas other than the table top is huge. Just look at the fact BL has had several best sellers on the NY Times list. No other company will ever match that.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> GW, being a profit driven company, will never lower their prices, whatever the economic situation. They can't even give a price break on their new army bundles, which is what practically every other company would do when offering multi unit bundles like this. They never have had, or never will have a sale, offer discounts or reward long time customers.


Actually I've heard tales of GW having special deals long in the past in the late-80's/early-90's. They also had the Skullz reward system too (from Warseer):



> The first ever subscription to WD I got they sent me a 2nd ed Lictor.
> 
> I had so many skullz stickers by the end of it I had:
> 
> ...


So never say GW never has done something. Chances are they have, but it was before your time. And before the economy took a crap GW did sell the Battleforces and Megaforces at a discount. It's only in the past couple years that this has stopped.

So yes, I really do think GW will be more likely bring back the discounts (however how small) when we see the economy go down, or we pester Tom Kirby with enough bulk mail.




Khorne's Fist said:


> This. The club I game with plays at an LGS, and in the last year several of us have moved away from 40k altogether into other systems stocked there. _Flames of War_ and _Infinity _seem to be the biggest winners in this situation.


As much as I hate to be "that guy" but anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. People move away GW's games all the time. Eventually a number of them come back too. 




Khorne's Fist said:


> Exactly. From my experience there seems to be a massive bleed of players from the hobby in general, especially since 6th Ed came out. And for the most part they are veterans of the hobby going all the way back to Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed, who have good jobs and plenty of disposable income to throw at a hobby. They are the ones that would support that type of business model, but for a number of reasons over the last year they are now throwing that money at the likes of Battlefront, West Wind, Privateer Press etc.


So some people don't like this edition, this happens at the start of EVERY edition. By the time we roll around to the end of 6th we'll see a lot of players again as the knee-jerking wears off (remember the edition won't be a year old for another 7 months) and they start trickling back in. Honestly it's too soon now to say that GW is screwed just because they dropped a new edition of 40k out and some people don't like it.



Khorne's Fist said:


> There was a time when GW spent fortunes on advertising the likes of Hero Quest and Space Crusade. That particular venture netted most of the gamers that I know around my age. I know it's a completely different environment now, they would have to compete with the likes of the console giants as well, but simpy relying on word of mouth isn't a viable marketing strategy any more.


I'd say it's not a dead method either, but I can agree GW could do a little more to get their name out their. Though I've seen commercials some local GW Stores and Battle Bunkers have used on Youtube so I know there are some places pushing to get their name out there.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Any new kid on the block simply could not compete with the behemoth that GW has become with regards to quality of product. Whatever we say about them, their models are fantastic. The progression over the last 20 years could not be matched by by anybody else in the market at the moment, never mind a new start up. Also, the customer base they have built up in areas other than the table top is huge. Just look at the fact BL has had several best sellers on the NY Times list. No other company will ever match that.


As much as I like GW's work, I wouldn't say that "no other company will ever match that". I'm sure some of these companies can learn from GW's missteps in the past to push themselves to the top much faster and sooner by making those key pushes sooner, and avoiding where GW has made mistakes or miscalculated.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Mostly by "soon" I meant a lot of stuff is ongoing and/or coming out this year. Any market pressure wouldn't even show up for at least 3 years from now. Games like Warmachine and Infinity have had some impact, but a lot of people either dual game or come back to 40K after a bit so it doesn't affect GW as much as you might initially think.

GW still sells a good product, so I don't see a huge market dip coming for them soon either.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Zion said:


> So some people don't like this edition, this happens at the start of EVERY edition. By the time we roll around to the end of 6th we'll see a lot of players again as the knee-jerking wears off (remember the edition won't be a year old for another 7 months) and they start trickling back in. Honestly it's too soon now to say that GW is screwed just because they dropped a new edition of 40k out and some people don't like it.


These are people who have stuck with GW through all 5 previous editions. People who have pumped thousands of £/$/€ over the course of 20 years and more. Some have even competed in international competitions like the ETC. They are not flighty teens who threw a strop because they don't like a new edition. 



Zion said:


> As much as I like GW's work, I wouldn't say that "no other company will ever match that". I'm sure some of these companies can learn from GW's missteps in the past to push themselves to the top much faster and sooner by making those key pushes sooner, and avoiding where GW has made mistakes or miscalculated.


No new company will have the money to start off at the level GW are at now. Even if they avoid the mistakes GW down the years, they would still take a couple of decades to get to where it's taken GW 30 odd years to get to. By which time they would still be trailing in the shadow of a monster. 



Zion said:


> So yes, I really do think GW will be more likely bring back the discounts (however how small) *when we see the economy go down*


Never gonna happen. The global economic situation can't get much worse, yet they still raise prices. The time to do it is now. Like I stated about the army bundles, you're not saving a cent by buying them. Would even a 10% discount for buying 3 dreadnoughts have hurt? It's €38 for a single dread, or €108 for the three. They could have made it a straight €100 and the brownie pts gained would have been worth the other €8.

But I digress. Apologies. I know you were trying to avoid a GW hate thread, so I'll bow out now.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> Im not sure why people feel this way towards stores,i can only assume that IF a GW store model doesnt work then neither does any other shop in your nation? A GW store is a shop just like any other, it has four walls a roof ,stock and staff to sell the stuff, How is that any different to anything else on your highstreets and shopping centers? plus 12 of the 20 million population live 5 of the cities, thats like shooting fish in a barrel for a retailer, this will also be part of the reason your prices are high, with populations that large in a few cities the retail rents will be massive,you will be talking london,paris,new york level rents for somewhere like Sydney, even if GW puts roots down in more out of the way locations the rents and rates of stores will be much higher than somewhere like Fulchester in the UK.


B&K, it is the dedicated gamesworkshop store that wont work ,there is not enough gw product selling to support the store, indies support more than one game system/hobby and so are not dependent on gw alone. 
The 12 mil in the cities being like shooting fish in a barrel? That is a crock and you know it.
UK pop 62mil or there abouts area 243000sqkm. 255people per square kilometer.
Aus pop 22 mil area 71000000km. 1 person per 3 square kilometers.
London is twice the population of our largest city. That is fish in a barrel. Be realistic.
Also given the size of the uk, it is relatively easy to put a store within a couple of hundred kms of pretty much anywhere. Personally I would have no problem driving 250 kms to a nearby store, in fact I did it to get the 5th ed chaos codex. Townsville to Cairns,334kms.(That store no longer carries gw either) Here, there is probably a third of the country that does not have a store within 1000-1500 kms. Big barrel, small fish. Price it reasonably , do a decent job of online sales, and watch the profits bloom.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

shaantitus said:


> Also given the size of the uk, it is relatively easy to put a store within a couple of hundred kms of pretty much anywhere. Personally I would have no problem driving 250 kms to a nearby store, in fact I did it to get the 5th ed chaos codex. Townsville to Cairns,334kms.(That store no longer carries gw either) Here, there is probably a third of the country that does not have a store within 1000-1500 kms. Big barrel, small fish. Price it reasonably , do a decent job of online sales, and watch the profits bloom.



No you wouldn't, because a litre of petrol here costs £1.40 here and our roads are extremely crowded compared to the roads in North America (trust me, my wife is Canadian and i'm a Brit, and everytime I go back to Canada I laugh at everyone moaning at $1.00 ((60p)) a litre...Don't know how good they've got it! Also, the amount of space and lack of traffic - even if big cities - is mind boggling to me!). 
Both factors combined, people here are less willing to drive long distances. Driving more than 300-400 miles is almost unheard of. 

Anyway, my view is that GW (in the UK at least) are going to follow many other high street retail stores: They will go down to minimal 'skeleton' staffing. Then they will exist solely to get kids (or returning veterans) into 'the hobby', offer painting classes and general advice, while they hand over the gaming side to local independent stores, which they will promote in-store. This is happening right now in some parts of the uk, including my hometown and many of the smaller cities in the southern region. 
I'm sure the bigger cities will maintain gaming nights and full-staffed events, but think they will become increasingly rare. 
I think it will be different in different countries though. 

All this means prices will stay the same, with the usual above-inflation increases every year. 

Regardless, those that argue GW prices are unfair while citing prices for 2nd edition don't seem to realise just how much model-quality has increased since then. 
And anyway, most online retailers do a 20% even 30% discount, and there is ebay and very easy ways to paint strip, so I generally don't see how I can justify moaning about it. I knew it was expensive back when I started 15 years ago so my choice, my problem. I earn not much above minimum wage and still manage to afford collecting 4 armies.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Anyway, my view is that GW (in the UK at least) are going to follow many other high street retail stores: They will go down to minimal 'skeleton' staffing. Then they will exist solely to get kids (or returning veterans) into 'the hobby', offer painting classes and general advice, while they hand over the gaming side to local independent stores, which they will promote in-store. This is happening right now in some parts of the uk, including my hometown and many of the smaller cities in the southern region.


This has been the case in my local GW for about four years now. It's only a small store I grant you, but there used to be a manager, 2-3 staff and a bunch of key-timers. And the store was heaving day in day out.
The store only seems to get busy beginner nights/days now :/


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, I guess this is the right thread to put this in. 

I recently had a long chat over a game of 40K with my LGS owner. He's dropping GW entirely from his store. I was rather taken shocked by this seeing how he has usually had everything new when its come out and made good money off of myself and a few friends who buy on a consistent basis.

"Why? What happened to cause this?"

"I'm now required to keep $6K in stock in order to continue to be a GW (carrier or whatever term he used) and can't afford to. I don't sell enough GW as it is except to you and 4 or so others. I can't keep up with it and the price increases last year dropped my sales of it compared to 2011. I can't have $6K of stock that hardly moves off my shelves."

Luckily, he is going to continue to support the game by means of allowing players of WHFB and 40K to keep playing there.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Well, I guess this is the right thread to put this in.
> 
> I recently had a long chat over a game of 40K with my LGS owner. He's dropping GW entirely from his store. I was rather taken shocked by this seeing how he has usually had everything new when its come out and made good money off of myself and a few friends who buy on a consistent basis.
> 
> ...


That is a thing, yes. GW requires Stockist to maintain certain minimum levels of inventory to stay stockists. Honestly I don't agree with it since it forces the stockists to keep stuff that may not be selling, but there were benefits to is as well (tournament prize support for example).

I tried finding where the information came out last year regarding the stockist levels and what the trade off for them was.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

6k of gw stock isnt that much, if your going to maintain a shop level of stock 6k should be an easy level to maintain, i seriously doubt you could genuinely have one of each item that indies can order for 6k, its all about avialability, GW want customers who go into an indie store to be able to purchase almost anything from the core range, if the indie only has half the range , the customer goes away disapointed, which is bad for the indie and bad for GW. Think about it this way if you went into a mcdonalds franchise and they only had half the menu what would feel?


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> 6k of gw stock isnt that much, if your going to maintain a shop level of stock 6k should be an easy level to maintain, i seriously doubt you could genuinely have one of each item that indies can order for 6k, its all about avialability, GW want customers who go into an indie store to be able to purchase almost anything from the core range, if the indie only has half the range , the customer goes away disapointed, which is bad for the indie and bad for GW. Think about it this way if you went into a mcdonalds franchise and they only had half the menu what would feel?


I see what you're saying, but, I think this may have to do with two possibilities.

1. Loss of interest by gamers due to price increase.
2. Spreading ones stock to thin by having a lot of other things that aren't moving either.

I could list things that I think may be the potential cause for this demise, but, these 2 are probably the top two of that list for that gaming area/community.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Zion said:


> That is a thing, yes. GW requires Stockist to maintain certain minimum levels of inventory to stay stockists. Honestly I don't agree with it since it forces the stockists to keep stuff that may not be selling, but there were benefits to is as well (tournament prize support for example).
> 
> I tried finding where the information came out last year regarding the stockist levels and what the trade off for them was.


From what my store's owners tell me, GW prize support isn't that great, especially compared to prize support for Magic: The Gathering. Of course, there is a huge difference in price between a pack of cards and a box of Marines. But the way Magic is set up(expansions every 3 months) and the way players buy boxes, Magic players can spend more than us. 

At any rate, my gaming store opens a starter set once every three months for prize support. We do big games with prize support once a month and the set has more than enough to cover everybody playing for those 3 month cycles. But the owner said prize support covers 1.5 starter sets. So the store is giving away 2.5 starter sets a year. Granted that's only $250 but you'd think GW would give more than $150 in prize support.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I forgot about replying to this one, so here goes:



Khorne's Fist said:


> These are people who have stuck with GW through all 5 previous editions. People who have pumped thousands of £/$/€ over the course of 20 years and more. Some have even competed in international competitions like the ETC. They are not flighty teens who threw a strop because they don't like a new edition.


I never said they were, but GW loses people like that _all the time_. In fact, lots of games do. What's funny is a lot of vets who played 2nd Edition actually keep comparing this edition to that one which I think is kinda neat. GW has basically brought us 2nd Edition Redux and it's not bad.



Khorne's Fist said:


> No new company will have the money to start off at the level GW are at now. Even if they avoid the mistakes GW down the years, they would still take a couple of decades to get to where it's taken GW 30 odd years to get to. By which time they would still be trailing in the shadow of a monster.


With Kickstarter they can get a lot more starting capital a lot faster though. And sure they'd be trailing behind GW in some ways, I think there are alternatives to GW's business model that would work pretty well too.




Khorne's Fist said:


> Never gonna happen. The global economic situation can't get much worse, yet they still raise prices. The time to do it is now. Like I stated about the army bundles, you're not saving a cent by buying them. Would even a 10% discount for buying 3 dreadnoughts have hurt? It's €38 for a single dread, or €108 for the three. They could have made it a straight €100 and the brownie pts gained would have been worth the other €8.


Yeah, my goof, I meant to say prices may get better when the economy improves. I think my brain wandered off there.

And having looked at their last earnings report (which included extra holiday season cash in it), the time to do it _not_ now. GW has FAR too much tied up everything right now to afford it. They'll need to finish reducing costs by committing completely to the one man-stores to get enough of a buffer in their to make it work.



Khorne's Fist said:


> But I digress. Apologies. I know you were trying to avoid a GW hate thread, so I'll bow out now.


Back and forth like this is perfectly fine. I've never been against people disagreeing with me, just how they do it. You're not wearing your pants on your head screaming about how GW is secretly out to get you, so you're fine.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> From what my store's owners tell me, GW prize support isn't that great, especially compared to prize support for Magic: The Gathering. Of course, there is a huge difference in price between a pack of cards and a box of Marines. But the way Magic is set up(expansions every 3 months) and the way players buy boxes, Magic players can spend more than us.


Yeah, Magic's set-up works great for a CCG, but horrible for a game involving models, so it's really not a fair comparison. GW is still doing more than they actually need to be doing, and while the prize support isn't nearly as good as it could be, GW offers it to everyone so we have to take that into account too. The reason it doesn't go as far is pretty clear when you realize that prize support basically haemorrhages them money.



Archon Dan said:


> At any rate, my gaming store opens a starter set once every three months for prize support. We do big games with prize support once a month and the set has more than enough to cover everybody playing for those 3 month cycles. But the owner said prize support covers 1.5 starter sets. So the store is giving away 2.5 starter sets a year. Granted that's only $250 but you'd think GW would give more than $150 in prize support.


We used the Pot method (like Poker) where the winner takes 80% in store credit, the 2nd place takes 20% and the painting comp winner usually gets $15 on the house. Sometimes the FGLS owner kicks in extras on top of that as well, which likely comes from that support budget, but it works for him.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

That's a good setup for prizes too. I'm sure it works to keep players competitive. But our monthly games are pretty casual and we get kids showing up. So they like for everybody to be able to get a model. It's something that they can show their parents to show they get something for playing. 

There were plenty of Fridays when I played Magic that I walked home with no prize. So I do like this setup better. Even if it's just a Cultist model I get something. And since the better performers pick first, I can get a Terminator or Biker if I do well.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Zion, 

GW doesn't have sales right now because it likely doesn't need to. The production costs compared to the retail prices of GW's plastics are pretty amazing if I recall correctly. And GW is the only producer of GW products, so no one will be able to really compete without first paying GW.

I think you've overlooked something critical here. GW doesn't have mail order sales because they don't want to under-cut their corporate retail locations. The draw for people coming to buy from the store would be even further reduced if GW.

Independents aren't treated very well by GW's corporate sales dept. I worked for a FLGS here in the states, and like the store mentioned above, we have to carry $X.xx of product at all times AND dedicate a certain amount of store square footage to GW product displays. Additionally, our discount was continually being reduced. And by the time I worked there our retailer's discount never exceeded 30 or 35%. So in the USA stores that sell GW at a steep discount are often making next to nothing on each sale.

I can also attest to GW having sales in the 90's. The sale I participated in was for clearing out old stock. Mail order was freeing up space and was selling 40k/fantasy grab bags: 20 random blisters for $20. At the time GW would often have sales through mail order. I don't know if there were GW store sales at the time, because I wasn't near a store. 

For the record the other reason a company has a sale is to encourage additional sales to increase profits through volume of sales. Because GW is the source of all warhammer product the potential increase in sales probably isn't worth the decrease in cost, as it has been noted this is a niche and luxury product a decrease in cost is not likely to draw new customers or significantly additional purchases from existing customers to offset the lost income by reducing the price.

TL;DR: GW doesn't have any competition producing GW product, therefore any discounted sale is primarily detrimental to GW. Any effect on independent retailers is coincidental.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> Zion,
> 
> GW doesn't have sales right now because it likely doesn't need to. The production costs compared to the retail prices of GW's plastics are pretty amazing if I recall correctly. And GW is the only producer of GW products, so no one will be able to really compete without first paying GW.


Yup, this is what we basically established. No sales because they don't need to do them.



Kreuger said:


> I think you've overlooked something critical here. GW doesn't have mail order sales because they don't want to under-cut their corporate retail locations. The draw for people coming to buy from the store would be even further reduced if GW.


GW doesn't work their personal stores like a franchise, so their stores don't lose money like an FLGS does due to the sales. But yeah this could still be a reason why.



Kreuger said:


> Independents aren't treated very well by GW's corporate sales dept. I worked for a FLGS here in the states, and like the store mentioned above, we have to carry $X.xx of product at all times AND dedicate a certain amount of store square footage to GW product displays. Additionally, our discount was continually being reduced. And by the time I worked there our retailer's discount never exceeded 30 or 35%. So in the USA stores that sell GW at a steep discount are often making next to nothing on each sale.


I was talking to my FGLS and other than having to explain to someone who was covering down for his usual supplier that he wanted the direct-only Finecast stuff he was requesting, he's had no trouble. I even confirmed that he pays about 60% on the normal stuff, and around 70% for the direct-only stuff which is what it's been for a long time.

Stores that do those steep discounts are making up their money by volume, much like Big Box Stores (Wal-Mart, Target, ect). They sell online to reach a larger customer base and make up their money that way.



Kreuger said:


> I can also attest to GW having sales in the 90's. The sale I participated in was for clearing out old stock. Mail order was freeing up space and was selling 40k/fantasy grab bags: 20 random blisters for $20. At the time GW would often have sales through mail order. I don't know if there were GW store sales at the time, because I wasn't near a store.


I wasn't playing back then, but this sounds about right with what I've heard in the past.



Kreuger said:


> For the record the other reason a company has a sale is to encourage additional sales to increase profits through volume of sales. Because GW is the source of all warhammer product the potential increase in sales probably isn't worth the decrease in cost, as it has been noted this is a niche and luxury product a decrease in cost is not likely to draw new customers or significantly additional purchases from existing customers to offset the lost income by reducing the price.


Again, a fair point. Something will have to give though as sooner or later as eventually we will reach a threshold where people won't be able to reasonable afford GW's price point. I don't think we're near that point yet, but as the price goes up we'll continue to get closer and closer to that point.



Kreuger said:


> TL;DR: GW doesn't have any competition producing GW product, therefore any discounted sale is primarily detrimental to GW. Any effect on independent retailers is coincidental.


Honestly I get what you're saying but there are more FLGS than GW's who carry their product and buy it ahead of time, that pay for the product ahead of the time, and I don't think GW wants to hurt their guaranteed revenue through these retailers because of that. That's a lot of money coming in every month from all over the world, and I don't think we can just write them off and say GW doesn't care. I honestly think they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot and screw over these FGLSs a.k.a. the steady money. GW right now ended their six-month period so far with a net income (the money left after the day to day running the company costs are taken care of) of £8,078. And frankly that tells me that they need that FGLS money if they want to keep making money (as they they don't need to pay FGLS for their business, and with mandatory stock levels they know they're going to keep the money coming in as long as they don't chase the FGLS away.

TL;DR: It's complicated.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Zion said:


> TL;DR: It's complicated.


This is really what it boils down to when it comes to GW, there isnt one person on this forum or likely any other that can actually give a definitive explanation of how GW operates as a business, even those with letters after there name and are educated in such things will be left scratching there heads on how GW manages to stay afloat and make a profit,While well respected massive companies with long trading histories selling things we need  have gone down the pipes in the current economic minefield.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

What does TL DR stand for?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Too long, didn't read.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> What does TL DR stand for?


too long didnt read, but im not sure why zion used it there to be honest?


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Too long, didn't read.





bitsandkits said:


> too long didnt read, but im not sure why zion used it there to be honest?


Ok. Then I guess it isn't as technical of a term as I had thought. Thanks for the clarification.:grin:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> This is really what it boils down to when it comes to GW, there isnt one person on this forum or likely any other that can actually give a definitive explanation of how GW operates as a business, even those with letters after there name and are educated in such things will be left scratching there heads on how GW manages to stay afloat and make a profit,While well respected massive companies with long trading histories selling things we need have gone down the pipes in the current economic minefield.


Agreed. I was just taking my best crack at why they never drop the price but raise it.

I do think GW might benefit from releasing things initially a bit below the norm and then bumping the price to normal levels on new stuff 3-6 months later to create that incentive to start something new, or pick it up. But that's one of those ideas that has no support by the real world so I don't know how it'd work.

Maybe if Pre-Orders were cheaper and then the release price was more expensive enticing people to pre-order all the new shiny?



bitsandkits said:


> too long didnt read, but im not sure why zion used it there to be honest?


I get kind of wordy and like to summarize so people's eyes don't glaze over.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Zion said:


> Agreed. I was just taking my best crack at why they never drop the price but raise it.
> 
> I do think GW might benefit from releasing things initially a bit below the norm and then bumping the price to normal levels on new stuff 3-6 months later to create that incentive to start something new, or pick it up. But that's one of those ideas that has no support by the real world so I don't know how it'd work.
> 
> ...


I can explain the business model pertaining to the Australian Market.

This is why GW Australian prices are what they are.

Consider this.

Australia has one of the highest retail rentals in the world.
Australia has one of the highest wages in the world.
Australia has the highest penalty rates for overtime in the world.
Australia has one of the highest public liability insurance rates in the world.
Australian business charge between 75% to 245% mark ups on floor stock to break even or make modest profits.
Australia has some of the highest utillity charges in the world. Some business have had their electricity rise by 400%+ in just over two years.
Australia has one of the highest internal delivery systems in the world.

So GW Australia is actually not that special.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I disagree with the above. As is said before, change the model. Australia is so spread out is should be geared toward online sales. Make the prices appropriate to that. Choose not to and waste your opportunities. I am aware of many people who no longer purchase gw products from the usual stockists at their inflated prices. They do all they can to avoid being gouged and prevent that extra cash going to gw. There used to be a time when i would drop more than a thousand bucks in one hit on gw, No more, all my large purchases recently have come from other manufacturers because they offer better value or service. Also any gw purchases are from alternative suppliers who offer the same product at a less ridiculous price. I have been converted (by gw's policies )from a totally devoted gw fanboy to someone who will continue to use their world for my gaming. If they go broke, then i will continue to play the game , but put together new models from alternative sources. I have no loyalty to them anymore as they have shown no interest in cultivating australian support.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

shaantitus said:


> I disagree with the above. As is said before, change the model. Australia is so spread out is should be geared toward online sales. Make the prices appropriate to that. Choose not to and waste your opportunities. I am aware of many people who no longer purchase gw products from the usual stockists at their inflated prices. They do all they can to avoid being gouged and prevent that extra cash going to gw. There used to be a time when i would drop more than a thousand bucks in one hit on gw, No more, all my large purchases recently have come from other manufacturers because they offer better value or service. Also any gw purchases are from alternative suppliers who offer the same product at a less ridiculous price. I have been converted (by gw's policies )from a totally devoted gw fanboy to someone who will continue to use their world for my gaming. If they go broke, then i will continue to play the game , but put together new models from alternative sources. I have no loyalty to them anymore as they have shown no interest in cultivating australian support.


I agree with some of what you have said but i'll give you an example.

GW Hornsby closed its doors the reason it cost GW Australia over $210,000AuD for the Financial Year 2011/2012 and a couple of months into financial year 2012/13 $100,000AuD in rent alone. It sold $90,000 worth of stock, making a trading deficit of $120,000AuD.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree the system in aus is not working, It used to be mentioned( i cannot remember where) that in years past there has been fanatical support for gw in australia(i believe the term 'cult following' was used). I also think that that cult following has been' taken advantage of. Maybe the demographic has changed and that cult following has dissipated. But if independent onliners here in aus can do it with reasonable prices then gw should too. Even the store here in townsville used to offer a standard 15% discount to help keep the product moving but to no avail. It was not the reduced price that killed him, it was a total inability to shift stock, either through a lack of customer numbers or exorbitant prices. You cannot blame the customer if they have limited funds, for trying to get the best deal. If that means online, then make the change and make it effective.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The reason Australia had such a fanatical GW fan base is that thanks to companies like Wayland, Maelstrom and any number of other companies could sell to Oz at massively reduced rates compared to the rest of the world. GW products were being snapped up at a pittance compared to what gamers were paying anywhere else. Then the embargo kicked in and you had to pay the same as everyone else, armies of Australians all started moaning that their hobby was unreasonably expensive, welcome to the real world! 

If GW Australia goes tits up do you really think that GW will change its pricing policy? Of course they won't, you'll just get gouged online. They'll keep the embargo and charge you through the nose for online sales and delivery costs, whether you like the business model or not, if you want to buy GW stuff you have to in some way subsidise their stores, they are, as Bits said a few pages back, most people's first access point to the hobby and they will remain so whether you like them or not. 

GW Australia are making a profit, whether that profit is sustainable remains to be seen but its a profit for now. All the time they are in profit they will continue to charge what they do and someone somewhere will buy it. Pricing for Australia will remain high for the reasons Achaylus mentioned, its no more expensive than anywhere else in the world once you take all the factors into account, you've just been brought into line with what the rest of us have been paying for ages.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Good point Norm, I have a upper middle class job and a new Stormraven would take me most of a shift to get the money for one. How many hours before taxes would you guys in OZ have to work to get it?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

ah fuck it


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Good point Norm, I have a upper middle class job and a new Stormraven would take me most of a shift to get the money for one. How many hours before taxes would you guys in OZ have to work to get it?


1.4 if I buy form the USA 0.7


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

I have an upper middle class job and the price for the Stormraven is, IMHO, not practical in comparison to my monthly bills. At least the price it is now, I'm glad I picked one up last year.



shaantitus said:


> ah fuck it


Umm... sorry?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Heh I feel the same way about it Jace but the more the Aussies talk about it the less I feel sorry for them. It sounds like they have been getting the stuff for dirt cheap.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

whats an upper middle class job?


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> whats an upper middle class job?


IMHO, a job that allows you to pay your bills and afford a hobby without breaking your bank account.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> There used to be a time when i would drop more than a thousand bucks in one hit on gw, No more, all my large purchases recently have come from other manufacturers because they offer better value or service.


This may be a fair comment, except for one small detail. GW has to be the best customer service provider I have ever come across. There is never a quibble or moan or gripe or excuse. If you have a problem they will try to make it good. Just the other day I was talking to my son about how one of the paints we had had split and could not mix back together. The shop assistant heard and gave me a free replacement without even needing to see a receipt or the knackered paint. Now that's service.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Jace of Ultramar said:


> IMHO, a job that allows you to pay your bills and afford a hobby without breaking your bank account.


You can do that on minimum wage provided you budget. I'm on ~£6.20 per hour (minimum wage) and can afford to drop ~£200 per month on GW if I want to. It means not buying DVDs, PC games, adding to my savings and so on, but I can happily pay my bills and rent.

Not being able to afford something more often than not is due to not setting your long term lifestyle up correctly, such as having a too-expensive car/mortgage/rent/phone/internet/TV/utilities etc. Not because you don't earn enough per hour.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Sethis said:


> You can do that on minimum wage provided you budget. I'm on ~£6.20 per hour (minimum wage) and can afford to drop ~£200 per month on GW if I want to. It means not buying DVDs, PC games, adding to my savings and so on, but I can happily pay my bills and rent.


Ditto, although my £100 monthly budget also gets pumped into going away at weekends to play with explosives. The more I go away, the less plastic I buy.

Works for me anyhoo


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

My monthly spend is roughly between £30 and £50 depending on what system I am buying for. 

I live fairly comfortably from my job but purchase gaming stuff on the equation that two bottles of my favourite red wine costs less than one squad of Space Marines......:grin:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Logaan said:


> I live fairly comfortably from my job but purchase gaming stuff on the equation that two bottles of my favourite red wine costs less than one squad of Space Marines


Poof! :laugh:

Right now I'm wishing I could up the budget as my next project is going to be pricey.....


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

If you budget, nothing is unaffordable. Me, I have bills. I save and then purchase for the things I want. But, I don't let a hobby endanger my monthly commitments. Mortgage, car notes, gas, insurance(s), groceries, pets, and phone bills can add up fast and get higher priority. Heaven forbid a car needs maintenance or the house needs some upkeep, someone gets sick, or an unexpected vet bill comes up. 
Personally, any little change I come by gets socked away for hobby funding. I find change on the ground in a parking lot, I'm not so proud that I can't pick it up and add it to my stash for a future purchase.


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

Tawa said:


> Poof! :laugh:


Careful now.

Like Jace says, the hobby never gets in the way of my sensible stuff; rent, tax, bills, food, general outgoings. I wouldn't spend 4 weeks eating Super Noodles just to buy that extra unit. 

I also save a lot by conducting my entire my life within one square mile. This is tragic but true.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Logaan said:


> I live fairly comfortably from my job but purchase gaming stuff on the equation that two bottles of my favourite red wine costs less than one squad of Space Marines......:grin:


I tried pointing that out to my wife once, she likes a nice drop......... didn't end well. :grin:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Logaan said:


> I also save a lot by conducting my entire my life within one square mile. This is tragic but true.


Yup, this I know :laugh:

My budget is also secondary to all the grown up stuff. My hobby money is kept "on paper" yet stays in the bank. At present I have £120 to play with, however I need to be careful with plastic crack as the re-enactment season is gearing up again next month and my hobby money also has to cover my food/fuel/beer at these events 

I used to be manic at spending my cash, but I'm pretty anal about keeping hold of it now :laugh:
Personal finance records in a folder and everything..... :blush:


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Once i pay off all my oustanding bills and loans, i'll begin to buy my plastic crack, but at the mo' my budget is for paints only, i have at least 6 months worth of painting to occupy my time, so hopefully by July at the earliest, i begin to purchase again, which is budgeted for about $100.00AuD a month.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Yep, I have to agree that it's fairly easy to afford on minimum wage. 

I am studying part-time and on a fairly low wage. I budget about £50 a month. I manage this easily if I don't go out drinking every weekend (I am getting older now so that doesn't happen as much anymore). Also, ebay and discount online stores (triple helix) help. I have no qualms buying badly painted models and paint stripping them. I think I managed to assemble 3000pts of Guard for about £250 over the past 2 years. Not bad. My current Tzeentch Daemons and CSM list (2500pts) will probably come in at about £200. And my Space Wolves look set to be around £150 for 2000pts. Dark Angels Deathwing-Ravenwing will probably be £150 for 2000pts on completion. 
I use a mix of old and new models, second-hand and discounted. All of the above comes to a very reasonable £750 and will keep me occupied for another year at least as I finish each project. God knows how much that would all cost new....


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Yep, I have to agree that it's fairly easy to afford on minimum wage.
> 
> I am studying part-time and on a fairly low wage. I budget about £50 a month. I manage this easily if I don't go out drinking every weekend (I am getting older now so that doesn't happen as much anymore). Also, ebay and discount online stores (triple helix) help. I have no qualms buying badly painted models and paint stripping them. I think I managed to assemble 3000pts of Guard for about £250 over the past 2 years. Not bad. My current Tzeentch Daemons and CSM list (2500pts) will probably come in at about £200. And my Space Wolves look set to be around £150 for 2000pts. Dark Angels Deathwing-Ravenwing will probably be £150 for 2000pts on completion.
> I use a mix of old and new models, second-hand and discounted. All of the above comes to a very reasonable £750 and will keep me occupied for another year at least as I finish each project. God knows how much that would all cost new....


I have found that sometime i get a pot of gold when getting job lots on the internet, i once got a job lot and was able to built a complete Chaos Tactical Space Marine unit for about 10 British Pounds from Britian.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I also find that many gamers hold on to things they dont need that are worth money that they will never use again or have never used and also quite willing to buy things that they intend to "paint/build/model/convert" but never get around to.
Anyone on a tight budget should take a long hard look around there home and consider what dusty items could be liberated on ebay to raise a few pounds towards your next army book or project. 
The wife recently went through our blu ray collection,blu rays have come down in price in the last 2 years and the number of people with players have increased, so we sold a fair number before christmas and raised £200, now i know not everyone has an extensive Blu ray collection, but ebay can surprise you with how much someone will pay for something you have thrown in the back of a cupboard.


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