# Who would be the next Warmaster if Abbadon falls?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Would it throw the Forces of Chaos into...well, erm...chaos? Who would rise to take his place? 

Also, why doesn't one of the Daemon Primarchs depose Abbadon and take his place? Are they too busy doing their daemonic sh*t? Would they rather settle on Abbadon rather than fight each other for leadership?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Kharn, Lucius, Typhus, Ahriman, Huron and others would all gather together on a neutral world to decide who among them would lead the forces of Chaos next as their mortal champion. Many insults are traded, accusations of past failures are made over Abbadons armless body. Kharn challenges any of them to a duel, Lucius suggests they all audition for the film adaptation of the popular Heresy era erotic novel "Fifty shades of 'Oh my fucking god what the actual fuck is happening!?'" With the champion winning the lead role also becoming Warmaster. But as Typhus steps forward, they all suddenly realise it isn't Typhus at all, but actually the Planet Killer, already under control of somebody else along with the rest of Abbadons forces.

Furiously they all look at each other with confusion and suspicion, before it dawns on them. With a rare singular and shared thought, they all look to the sky and scream out...


CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

If Abbaddon fails again? Mind you he has 13 Black Crusades on his belt. 13 bad losses.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Huron would probably try and make alliances with the legions if abaddon dies


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> If Abbaddon fails again? Mind you he has 13 Black Crusades on his belt. 13 bad losses.


Fall not fail



Angel of Blood said:


> Kharn, Lucius, Typhus, Ahriman, Huron and others would all gather together on a neutral world to decide who among them would lead the forces of Chaos next as their mortal champion.


I really can't see the old guard traitors submitting to Huron



redmapa said:


> Huron would probably try and make alliances with the legions if abaddon dies


Huron is a big fish in a small pond. There are arguable hundreds if not thousands of Chaos lords of similar power. I mean, how much clout does he have right now really? His little empire was broken. He just has a sizeable Chaos fleet at his disposal. 

He's a minor Chaos lord who gets mentioned a lot in the fluff


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> If Abbaddon fails again? Mind you he has 13 Black Crusades on his belt. 13 bad losses.


Think you could elaborate on how all of his previous black crusades have been failures? Especially considering the fact that he achieved his goals during no less than three of them (because each crusade is not an attempt to outright dethrone the Emperor.)


There would be no new warmaster if the Despoiler ever fell. Abbadon is the only mortal (a term I use loosely) to achieve favour from all four chaos gods and unite the various traitor legions for a single cause since Horus himself. Abbadon leads a legion of his own creation, one which threw off many of the shackled that were the bad blood with other legions (bad blood which many legions still have with one another.)

None of the other great chaos marine champions have the ties, favour, or charisma of the Despoiler. Some, like Erebus, Kor Pheron, Kharn, Typhus, and Huron are great in some respects but not all of them, which is what makes Abbadon the threat that he is.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Think you could elaborate on how all of his previous black crusades have been failures? Especially considering the fact that he achieved his goals during no less than three of them (because each crusade is not an attempt to outright dethrone the Emperor.)
> 
> 
> There would be no new warmaster if the Despoiler ever fell. Abbadon is the only mortal (a term I use loosely) to achieve favour from all four chaos gods and unite the various traitor legions for a single cause since Horus himself. Abbadon leads a legion of his own creation, one which threw off many of the shackled that were the bad blood with other legions (bad blood which many legions still have with one another.)
> ...


This. (Especially about 'Failbaddon and the 13 fail crusades' meme).

The Black crusade would just fall apart without Abaddon. I cannot see anyone ever replacing him or at least not in the near future or with any of the current chaos characters.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Of course, Abbaddon must be the best logistical mind of all times, I mean half his time he is using to settle arguments between four sides that really doesn't like eachother. It's like getting fanatical Muslims, Nazis, fanatical Jews and fanatical other people to cooperate. Of course this is just an example, but it shows how hard the job of Abbaddon is. I also never take it too seriously when a person says Abaaddon is Failabbaddon the Armless. That's just humor not a serious opinion, as the IOM sic everything they have at him once he rears his ugly head.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> Stuff


So..would that be a 'no I cannot elaborate on how all of Abbadon's black crusades were failures' or are you just trying to avoid the question?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

They were all failures, though not all can be lopped at him.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> They were all failures, though not all can be lopped at him.


WHAT???

How were they all failures? 

13th aim was to get a foothold on cadia, which they did
1st one killed a loyalist primarch
One secured his magical sword etc etc
The Eye has expanded hugely 

Don't think of chaos as a linear black white idea of all we want is to invade terra. That is not their goal. If any thing I imagine Abbadon will want to create a second imperium rather than rushing to terra. He knows he can't just rush to terra, he needs to get out of the eye and start the grind and thats what he is doing


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Which Primarch was killed? Getting trinkets counts as victory? Gaining a foothold only to be blasted away by the Imperial Navy, and I don't think Abbaddon can do anything about the Eye of Terror expanding as last I checked he had negligible psychic prowess.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> They were all failures, though not all can be lopped at him.


They weren't. CotE is probably rolling in his bed/office chair/whatever the hell he's doing at the moment.



Beaviz81 said:


> Which Primarch was killed?


It's not specifically stated, but all the data points at Dorn dying in the first Black Crusade.



Beaviz81 said:


> Getting trinkets counts as victory?


When said "trinket" is the objective of the Black Crusade...then, yes. 

Drach'nyen is hardly a trinket. Nor is a Blackstone fortress.



Beaviz81 said:


> Gaining a foothold only to be blasted away by the Imperial Navy


Things still look very ugly. And ultimately taking Cadia isn't even the objective. He just needs to cause enough havoc to tear open the Cadian Gate, anyway.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

1st crusade killed Dorn, gained sword
2nd Failed
3rd Abaddon wasn't involved in
4th bit meh captured a planet
5th Abaddon not involved with
6th ???
7th lots of fighting and death - no notable gain 
8th ??
9th Destroyed naval fortresses defending system
10th not really a crusade just several battles
11th ??
12th crusade abbadon acquired 2 blackstone fortresses - mixed victory he wanted 4
13th crusade foothold is still intact - The imperial navy never blasted him away. He lost a lot of ships but they likely float back to they eye as all debris does. The ships can be repaired re-crewed and sent out again in the future 

The expanding eye is due to the fluctuations of chaos powers which occurs during the crusades, chaos is at a peak and once a planet is swallowed its never returned. This is due to the huge gathering of chaos power generally orchestrated by abbaddon. 

Abbadon is not 13 times the loser. He has a near impossible task, but he is making gains. Wait is time for a near immortal?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

He has launched 13 Black Crusades Barnster. Hehe, though it sounds fun that he manages to be in absentia in some.

I mean Abbaddon ain't the only person going on Black Crusades and he haven't copyrighted them like Disney have copyrighted Disney. I now envision Abbaddon hiring an army and suing Doombreed for taking it's name. Hehe quite a vision that Abbaddon and Doombreed in suit and tie in a courtroom.

Also Rogal Dorn stopped a Black Crusade by sacrifising himself, but it wasn't Abbaddon's Black Crusade.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Barnster said:


> The expanding eye is due to the fluctuations of chaos powers which occurs during the crusades, chaos is at a peak and once a planet is swallowed its never returned.


Haven't the zombie art collectors (Necrons) whacked a couple of anti-psychic phallic towers on there that stop the eye getting too lary?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Haven't the zombie art collectors (Necrons) whacked a couple of anti-psychic phallic towers on there that stop the eye getting too lary?


They are falling apart, Abaddon is trying to get force them to break, when they do the eye will engulf Cadia.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought the Eye of Terror varied in size. Doesn't it?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> He has launched 13 Black Crusades Barnster.
> 
> Hehe, though it sounds fun that he manages to be in absentia in some.


Actually no, while there have been black crusades led by others, the numbered ones have all been led by Abbadon (even though there are some with no information on them at this time.)



Beaviz81 said:


> Also Rogal Dorn stopped a Black Crusade by sacrifising himself, but it wasn't Abbaddon's Black Crusade.


Thats debatable as we do not know which black crusade he died in, and whether or not he even died in one (because of the canon conflict regarding when he was lost to the Imperium.)




Beaviz81 said:


> Getting trinkets counts as victory?


When those 'trinkets' include his daemon sword, the eye of night, hand of darkness, and blackstone fortresses, I'd say yes. And while his aim in the 12th crusade was to acquire all six fortresses, two was plenty and three would have been more than enough.

Why? Because three blackstone fortresses had the power to make a sun supernova and destroy an entire system; two had the power to destroy a planet.



Beaviz81 said:


> Gaining a foothold only to be blasted away by the Imperial Navy,


Gaining a foothold on one of the most heavily defended worlds, bar terra, and ensuring that the Imperium has to spend an ungodly amount of resources (even for them) to completely remove a now entrenched chaos hold.

You seem to like to believe the matter is so cut and dry but its not. Every time the Imperium would have lost ground on Cadia (and lets face it, they did) thats a strong-point or heavily defended locale now in the hands of the enemy. Its locations designed to be nigh impossible to take, and in the case of the Imperium retake.


Once again, and getting to be rather unsurprising, your opinion-as-fact mentality is quite wrong/misinformed.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Wow Darkreaver, just wow. Well that's your opinion, I refuse to voice mine about you.

I was poking fun at the idea that Abbaddon manages to lead in absentia, it's a wild theory not reality though it's a fun thought which I cracked a joke about with the lawsuit of Abbaddon suing Doombreed. I'm not blind for fluff, as I already mentioned, every time Abbaddon rears his ugly head they sic everything they have at him.

I was maybe a bit informal about calling the nice things Abbaddon got trinkets, but it almost seems like a really longwinded computer-game with him picking up gear like I could do in Baldur's Gate and still he never gets any closer to getting to Terra despite winning symbolic victories.

And I'm pretty much convinced Cadia is the second-best defended planet in the entire Galaxy. And I also uses knowledge about what fighting in ruins does to an army, that will just bring it down, just look at Stalingrad, that's my view of Cadia.

If anything was speculation on my part it was Dorn sacrificing himself to stop a Black Crusade, but that to my surprise you didn't protest too much about.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> Wow Darkreaver, just wow. Well that's your opinion, I refuse to voice mine about you.


Whats my opinion? That you have previously attempted to use your opinion as fact, and that your posts here are reminiscent of that? Or would it be the meat of my post, about things like the blackstone fortresses and gaining a foothold on Cadia and that the numbered crusades are the ones led by Abbadon?



Beaviz81 said:


> If anything was speculation on my part it was Dorn sacrificing himself to stop a Black Crusade, but that to my surprise you didn't protest too much about.


To my knowledge, and I honestly haven't read my copy of index astartes in some time, I think it is actually mentioned that Dorn's actions aboard the Sword of Sacrilege was the lynchpin in stop that black crusade. Meaning that what you said is correct, so why would I protest about you being right?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I don't deny that Abbaddon has had successes and hell I called him the greatest logistical mind ever, mind you he has an assortment of haters siding which eachother (the things I wrote about the guys of differencing religions comes to mind as when I joke Abbaddon is an Armless fuckwit, while I'm painfully aware of him being the greatest threat to the IOM since Horus, there is a difference), and if I come off that way, then I should try to be more clear that it's my opinion and interpretation despite me writing in a very direct way.

Foothold on Cadia means foothold in Stalingrad in my vocabulary. Yes Abbaddon won the ground-war there but he lost the air-war which is what counts. Again this is my opinion nothing else, but it's kind of backed by fluff.

Maybe you are right Darkreaver, but I remember it being fairly weakly written and rather an anti-climax, I mean this is the greatest story never told as I would actually buy that book.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> He's a minor Chaos lord who gets mentioned a lot in the fluff


I wouldn't say he's a "minor" Chaos Lord. He probably maintains one of the largest pirate fleets in the galaxy.



hailene said:


> They weren't. CotE is probably rolling in his bed/office chair/whatever the hell he's doing at the moment.


:ireful2::angry::headbutt::ireful2:



Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Haven't the zombie art collectors (Necrons) whacked a couple of anti-psychic phallic towers on there that stop the eye getting too lary?


They are all but destroyed now as of the 13th Crusade.



darkreever said:


> Actually no, while there have been black crusades led by others, the numbered ones have all been led by Abbadon (even though there are some with no information on them at this time.)


Just to clear up a bit of general confusion (not necessary aimed at you _d_): Abaddon has personally led 13 Black Crusades, though we only have information on a few of them. But a "Black Crusade" is not necessarily synonymous with Abaddon and many more have been led by other Chaos Champions. 

Also, just to clear up some confusion concerning the 13th Black Crusade: Abaddon is now largely in control of Cadia (bar a few pockets of resistance) and the Cadian Gate can no longer be utilised to bar the Chaos forces within the Eye. The Imperial Navy is *not* in command of Cadian orbit, but still has access to the inter-system space lanes that are not overrun. Effectively, the conclusion of the Eye of Terror Campaign resulted in the Imperium losing it's stranglehold on the Cadian Gate and has set up Abaddon for his establishment of the Crimson Path.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Effectively, the conclusion of the Eye of Terror Campaign resulted in the Imperium losing it's stranglehold on the Cadian Gate and has set up Abaddon for his establishment of the Crimson Path.


Isn't the conclusion Imperial forces are poised to retake Cadia, a large number of Chaos forces are scattered/fleeing

Might've read this on another forum


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Isn't the conclusion Imperial forces are poised to retake Cadia, a large number of Chaos forces are scattered/fleeing
> 
> Might've read this on another forum


Yeah, that's what I read. I'd prefer Chaos to have a solid foothold, but I was always under the assumption of what MtM thought, swear I've read it on some official GW thing somewhere.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I can't find the original campaign report. 

The Lex' says that Chaos pretty much owns the entire planet with Imperial forces stuck in their fortresses. Though the Imperium has control of the space around Cadia.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Back to the original question. Who could take over?

I mean Peturbo and Lorgar are there both blessed by Chaos Undivided, but I can't come up with anyone else that would be a good idea placing there at the head instead of Abbaddon as just a normal Astartes would mean no cooperation from the legions of the Daemon Primarches as I have seen other Space Marines pop up.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Back to the original question. Who could take over?
> 
> I mean Peturbo and Lorgar are there both blessed by Chaos Undivided, but I can't come up with anyone else that would be a good idea placing there at the head instead of Abbaddon as just a normal Astartes would mean no cooperation from the legions of the Daemon Primarches as I have seen other Space Marines pop up.


The main issue would be if they are actually interested in taking over.

I could see Lorgar taking over but current fluff dictates that he's been on Sicarus meditating in a temple for a thousand years with no indication that he'll be finished anytime soon.

And Perturabo, well, IRC he isn't the most charismatic chap and (to me) he doesn't seem too interested with the material realm (A byproduct of Daemonhood I am guessing).

And even if both of them were interested, would the other legions follow them? I understand why they follow Abbadon seeing as he is the natural successor to Horus, has built up the Black Legion into a powerful military entity and has lead Black Crusades and has basically actually been doing things. 

What has Lorgar or Perturabo done recently of note?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Been meditating and drank beer and be unemployed. I mean so little is known about Peturbo that I'm almost tempted to write about him myself.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> If Abbaddon fails again? Mind you he has 13 Black Crusades on his belt. 13 bad losses.


Sigh.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Isn't the conclusion Imperial forces are poised to retake Cadia, a large number of Chaos forces are scattered/fleeing
> 
> Might've read this on another forum


Quoted below from a thread, a few weeks back... (Dude, you're actually _in the thread_ where I explained this. Bad Monty, no biscuit.):

_"The 13th Black Crusade, in the lore, hasn't happened yet according to the recent background. It's about to happen, or in the process of happening. But it's the culmination of 10,000 years of prophecy that the End Times will come, and even taking the now-defunct and ignored global campaign of over a decade ago into consideration (which is being generous, at best) the Cadian Gate is broken open, and the Traitor Legions have unprecedented access to the Imperium 'now'. 

You could argue that it's not really the purview of an old, old store campaign (played by a tiiiiiny fraction of the fanbase) to determine so much vital stuff, set in stone decades later. Plus, the way its ending was presented wasn't always clear. The Cadian Gate was broken, but people forget that and focus on "LOL ABADDON'S GOT NO REINFORCEMENTS ON CADIA."

Uh, no. He doesn't need them. He's smashed through.

But even so, this is all irrelevant, as we've both stated. The Crimson Path is what's happening now."_


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nothing better than ADB stepping in again to tell it how it is. Cheers again!


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Sigh.


I feel your pain, every time someone makes that claim.


As to the original question, as I said before there would be no new warmaster, or at least not one close to the equal of Abbadon. There might be many who attempt to claim the title, but it wouldn't be recognized as it is for him.

And this really is because no one else is able to match his actions and deeds, not even the remaining traitor primarchs. For Mortarion, Magnus, Angron, and Fulgrim this comes down to the fact that their concerns are more towards the great game of the gods, the actions and feats of mere mortals truly mean nothing to them now.

Perturabo lacks the charisma and flexibility (his way of waging war isn't terribly three dimensional after all) for the majority of other chaos forces to follow him and Lorgar the achievements and strength to force the loyalty of others.

Beyond them you have some of the greater champions of chaos, like Typhus and Huron, who would be the most viable candidates. The problem with them is:

Typhus and his plague fleet don't exactly play well with others, especially those who worship some of the other gods.

Huron is a pirate warlord leading a rabble of renegade astartes. His major claim to fame is plunging a dozen or so systems into civil war with the Imperium before ultimately being defeated (with both his chapter and himself all but destroyed in the process.) As awesome and powerful as he is, the tyrant is nothing compared to many of the older champions.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

It's clear that only Angron can take over.

He's the only daemon primarch that can get shit done.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> He's the only daemon primarch that can get shit done.


Unless the shit that needs to be done extends only as far as "There are people with skulls and blood over there, let's kill them!", I don't think Angron is the best choice.

As to the original question...I don't think anyone, as DarkReever has said, is ready to or capable of leading the forces of Chaos. Power is like money: You need to have money ,or at least convince enough people that you do have enough money, in order to get more.

No one wants to back a loser. The next Warmaster will have to have the influence, power, and drive to engage the Imperium.

I personally think Huron is the best bet. Give him another couple thousands of years to turn his 5000 astartes into 50,000 and we'll see what he can do.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> It's clear that only Angron can take over.
> 
> He's the only daemon primarch that can get shit done.


Unfortunately Angron is automatically disqualified as a leader of Khorne. Same with Morarion, Fulgrim and Magnus. Though Mortarion and Magnus only shows up to be humiliated, though the main reason for them to not lead is that one god becomes dominant.

That's why I advocated Peturbo and Lorgar, though memetic mutation has made Peturbo into a demigod form of the jobless jackass living on your couch and Lorgar just chose to meditate for many years and is a known hater of grandeur which the title of Warmaster is all about and more. Neither has actually done much stuff lately.

The Space Marines who are candidates would meet resistance from the HH-era Space Marines, be realistic, the HH-era Space Marines regard the Space Marines of 40k. as children, that's actually canon as I read that in an old WD of the 90's in regard to a HH-era Fallen Angel being interrogated. They would object to being led by them. That's infact a major obstacle. Same with the demons, they won't be too happy either being led by children.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> Unfortunately Angron is automatically disqualified as a leader of Khorne. Same with Morarion, Fulgrim and Magnus.


Like I said before, they have each ascended to a point where they, like their respective gods, care mostly about the great game. Because of that they could, or would, never seek/obtain favour with the other godly factions unless to damage another.



Beaviz81 said:


> Though Mortarion and Magnus only shows up to be humiliated, though the main reason for them to not lead is that one god becomes dominant.


I guess you should lop Angron into that lot then, he was only banished by a company of Grey Knights and all (remember Draigo legend only tell the tale of him fighting Mortarion in a way to honour him, not to tell all the facts exactly as they were.)

Of those four, Mortarion and Angron occassionally come out and wreak havoc, while Magnus and Fulgrim seem content to pursue other things than war.



Beaviz81 said:


> though memetic mutation has made Peturbo into a demigod form of the jobless jackass living on your couch


And why is that exactly (that he does nothing)? The destruction of the forgeworld Toil and the Iron Cage incident were both his doing after all, and who knows what he has done within the Eye. Its not just their actions against the Imperium that you'd have to consider after all.



Beaviz81 said:


> and Lorgar just chose to meditate for many years and is a known hater of grandeur which the title of Warmaster is all about and more.


And gods know what he has been doing in his isolation, beyond meditating of course.



Beaviz81 said:


> I read that in an old WD of the 90's in regard to a HH-era Fallen Angel being interrogated.


Assuming what you read there hasn't since been retconned in 13-23 years.




Beaviz81 said:


> Same with the demons, they won't be too happy either being led by children.


Daemons view the heresy era traitors as children, because compared to daemons (who have been around for thousands of years or more) they are.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I earlier wrote I'm considering just writing about Perturbo just for someone to write about him. That's how much a Scrappy he feels to me, and you should look at the wording, that was straight from 1d4chan. And I haven't read anything about him doing much, but if I was GW I would have him leading the aforementioned Black Crusade and haven Dorn banish him from the warp for the sacrifice of Dorn being mortally wounded, though that's just me. But I don't doubt for a minute it would be an awesome read and give a powerful reason to Dorn being dead.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I assumed the wording was not your own, thats why I limited my question to just why you think Perturabo has done nothing.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Quoted below from a thread, a few weeks back... (Dude, you're actually _in the thread_ where I explained this. Bad Monty, no biscuit.)[/I]


I remember reading in another thread, I can't for the life of me remember whether it's on this forum or another, that...

Basically the loyalists totally dominated Chaos in the old global campaign thing...but GW (probably wisely) didn't base the narrative solely on campaign battle reports. The end result was Cadia falling but surrounding space firmly under Imperial control as the Imperial made come back or something like that...

I have to dig to find where I read this


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I have to dig to find where I read this


Please do, I took part in a lot of that in my area and even then remember it coming out as chaos generally eaking out the win.

Looking back, considering how young I was at the time I'm rather surprised I did as well as I did during that campaign.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

In my area we curb stomped chaos. My Blood Angels rampaged across the entire sector inflicting loses on the wrong side of hilarious for Chaos. I thought the national result was rather more in the favour of Disorder though.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ahriman or Erebus.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Huron or Honsou.

Seriously, probably Huron. He's done some pretty awesome stuff (destroying a Space Marine Chapter with minimal losses to his own forces and reaping a huge reward in gene seed, despite losing a pretty powerful battleship - that was to his own allies, admittedly). He's got a large pirate empire with docks such as Hell's Iris at his command. Huron's the rising star for CSM.

Midnight


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> destroying a Space Marine Chapter with minimal losses to his own forces


Which chapter was this?


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Which chapter was this?


I am guessing MidnightSun was talking about the Marines Errant chapter. It happened in the Night Lords trilogy.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Unfortunately Angron is automatically disqualified as a leader of Khorne. Same with Morarion, Fulgrim and Magnus. Though Mortarion and Magnus only shows up to be humiliated, though the main reason for them to not lead is that one god becomes dominant.
> 
> That's why I advocated Peturbo and Lorgar, though memetic mutation has made Peturbo into a demigod form of the jobless jackass living on your couch and Lorgar just chose to meditate for many years and is a known hater of grandeur which the title of Warmaster is all about and more. Neither has actually done much stuff lately.
> 
> The Space Marines who are candidates would meet resistance from the HH-era Space Marines, be realistic, the HH-era Space Marines regard the Space Marines of 40k. as children, that's actually canon as I read that in an old WD of the 90's in regard to a HH-era Fallen Angel being interrogated. They would object to being led by them. That's infact a major obstacle. Same with the demons, they won't be too happy either being led by children.


Magnus did lead his shattered legion into a semi successful attack on the fang and destroyed any hope of the wolves getting the wulfen cured.

Angron lead a successful berserker campaign for over two centuries and across 70 sectors he also invaded armageddon and indirectly caused the wolves to pwn the inquisition and the grey knights.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Tyrannus said:


> I am guessing MidnightSun was talking about the Marines Errant chapter. It happened in the Night Lords trilogy.


Aren't the Marines Errant still around (but missing almost all of their geneseed stock, so they're kinda fooked in the long run)?


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Huron or Honsou.
> 
> Seriously, probably Huron. He's done some pretty awesome stuff (destroying a Space Marine Chapter with minimal losses to his own forces and reaping a huge reward in gene seed, despite losing a pretty powerful battleship - that was to his own allies, admittedly). He's got a large pirate empire with docks such as Hell's Iris at his command. Huron's the rising star for CSM.


I'd disagree. For one, he's based out of the Maelstrom, and while he certainly has tons of manpower, in terms of both Astartes and other assorted scum, he's not in a position to unite the warbands in and around the Eye of Terror. Second, he doesn't have the necessary political or religious clout. Abaddon, like Horus, is one of the only Chaos commanders to bear the marks of all four gods, whereas Huron is as-yet undedicated. He doesn't have the pull to unite the legions the way Abaddon has. He's a pirate- one of the most infamous, with a huge fleet, but still just a reaver at the end of the day.

Huron is certainly one of the most powerful warlords out there, but there are others, some under Abaddon's command, who are just as powerful, and probably more influential. Honsou I could definitely see leading his own Black Crusade someday, but I don't know if he's Warmaster material.

I don't see Erebus (or the rest of the Dark Council, for that matter) taking Warmastership. Erebus and Kor Phaeron and the rest are string-pullers, the powers-behind-the-throne for whoever's in charge, just like they were with Lorgar and Horus. However, if they sponsored a certain champion, he'd have a very good shot at filling Abaddon's shoes.

One of the reasons Abaddon came to power was his constant acquisition and mastery of various superweapons. Drach'nyen, one of the most powerful daemon weapons in the galaxy, has made him basically unstoppable, the Blackstone Fortresses and the Planet Killer allowed him to achieve naval dominance, and now he's got the Heart of Chaos, though who knows what that is. If Abaddon were to fall, whoever acquired (and mastered) Drach'nyen (or discovered an object of similar power) would have a good shot at filling his vacancy. That goes for the Blackstone Fortresses too (the Planet Killer was left under the command of one of Abaddon's captains and destroyed, IIRC).


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Aren't the Marines Errant still around (but missing almost all of their geneseed stock, so they're kinda fooked in the long run)?


Words from the blurb: 

"Their mission: To steal the loyalist chapter's gene-seed, dooming them to a slow demise."

And as pointed out earlier in this thread, they managed that and I am pretty sure they inflicted serious amounts of casualties when taking the Gene-seed.

So yeah, you're kind of right they are still "around" but in few numbers and aren't able to replace said casualties. 

They really don't look like they can recover from this serious blow so in all intents & purposes, they're dead.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Tyrannus said:


> "Their mission: To steal the loyalist chapter's gene-seed, dooming them to a slow demise."
> 
> And as pointed out earlier in this thread, they managed that and I am pretty sure they inflicted serious amounts of casualties when taking the Gene-seed


IIRC, only one company of Marines Errant was guarding their fortress monastery when the Red Corsairs and Night Lords descended upon it to steal the geneseed

At most they lost 100 marines?


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> IIRC, only one company of Marines Errant was guarding their fortress monastery when the Red Corsairs and Night Lords descended upon it to steal the geneseed
> 
> At most they lost 100 marines?


I'll admit, I got the "major casualties" wrong (I haven't read Blood Reaver since its release). While I haven't got Blood Reaver on hand atm, I did find "The fall of Vilamus" in the 5th edition rulebook on pg 146. It mentions that there were 120 Marines defending the Monastery. It doesn't specifically mention the casualties but it's safe to say most of the marines( and serfs) died in the attack. 

It does mention the same line (or close to it) as in the Blood Reaver blurb:
"Huron escaped with nearly all of the Chapter's gene-seed, dooming the Marine's errant to a slow demise."

OT: The only viable replacement I can think of is one Black Library (or ADB or whichever author has to potentially deal with Abbadon's death) will have to create. I know it sounds like a cop out, but (as I mentioned in a previous post on this thread) I can't really see any of the current characters having the ability to replace him. 

Maybe they could create an ambitious Black Legion warlord who is in command of a significant amount of the legion (but obviously subservient to Abbadon).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I remember reading in another thread, I can't for the life of me remember whether it's on this forum or another, that...
> 
> Basically the loyalists totally dominated Chaos in the old global campaign thing...but GW (probably wisely) didn't base the narrative solely on campaign battle reports. The end result was Cadia falling but surrounding space firmly under Imperial control as the Imperial made come back or something like that...
> 
> I have to dig to find where I read this


Actually, I remember the Eye of Terror Campaign and overall the Disorder players were much, much more organised and ran out as clear winners (there were even suggestions that GW intervened in certain aspects to limit the Disorder victory).

Anyway, IIRC in none of the Eye of Terror Campaign/13th Black Crusade material was it mentioned that the Imperium were poised to retake Cadia. In fact the final campaign newsletter stressed just how much of a victory the Crusade was for Abaddon.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah it's that way when you tries to let the TT decide things. I mean had GW let the TT dictate fluff then we would have been absent the Ultramarines since the late 90's. In a WD. Retconned on the spot. Even I thought it was insane to publish. Then they did the same with Armageddon. Hehe hilarious. Medusa was fun as well and a better alternative as unlike Ultramar, Armageddon and Cadia Medusa doesn't carry a large profit. If I recall correctly the IOM lost badly at the ground at Cadia so then they fluffed out the IOM won the air-war.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

OK I found it. I read this on another forum (there was quite an argument going on):





> A GW authors opinon is exactly that, he is NOT a canon voice in any way outside of what he officaly writes for GW. So no, he is clearly wrong when he can be SHOWN to be wrong, unless he writes soemthing that GW say 'This is canon'.
> 
> Please; EVERY one of those Crusades was ultimatly focused on the strategic objective to break open the Gate and allow unimpeeded access to the rest of the Galaxy, even if there were immediate objectives to that fact. The Gothic War was not at the Gate, but ultimatly it was about getting the bigass eldar guns to LET him break open the gate, it was a glorified hit, hold and run BACK to the eye, to then break open the front door to the eye. And he only managed a partial success there, and lost almost all of the Blackstones anyway when he tried to use them in the 13th Crusade to smash open the door.
> 
> ...


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> OK I found it. I read this on another forum (there was quite an argument going on):


Jesus. People get so agonisingly worked up when they're that deep in denial.

Stuff like: "Please; EVERY one of those Crusades was ultimatly focused on the strategic objective to break open the Gate and allow unimpeeded access to the rest of the Galaxy, even if there were immediate objectives to that fact" always sort of horrifies me, because it's the worst kind of fan reaction. It's stating a perception (against all evidence to the contrary) with such ferocity, that you know when more detail emerges based on actual lore and IP discussion, they'll just hiss and spit and insist it's wrong or a change to the previous lore. In that particular instance, it's categorically incorrect, and I know that (as do most 40K fans) from the lore itself, let alone the fact that I'm lucky enough to be able to ask these things directly to the IP department and the IP manager. Yet you've got some very serious forum froth going on, insisting any disagreement with his wildly incorrect interpretations is somehow the domain of fools and hacks.

The 13th Black Crusade is one of the worst offenders about this, because so much of the (barely existent) lore is based on a 15-year-old campaign newsletter that GW itself has ignored and not cared about for... well, for over a decade. I can tell you, straight up, that the newsletter is essentially worthless in terms of lore, and utterly ignored. That's not even a scandalous or controversial point: it's a _newsletter_ from a _store campaign_ _over ten years ago_. I mean... I mean, seriously. I can't just pretend that matters, and base a novel series around it. 

And that's not even counting how all the talk of how the 13th Black Crusade ended is meaningless to anyone outside that old campaign, because the new edition(s) is/are set at two minutes to midnight, just before the 13th Black Crusade starts. Y'know, the crusade that's prophetically destined to end the Imperium, and herald in the "midnight" of the IP.

Also, one of the main problems with getting quoted out of context on other forums is that it can make it look like I just blithely rock up and announce stuff, when 99.9% of the time I'm answering something someone has directly asked about for clarity on a matter related to something I'm writing about.

Take a project like dealing with the Black Legion. That'll involve having access to every single word ever written about them, their characters, their origins, and so on. Every written word. It'll also involve discussions with various IP folks, and synopses going back and forth, and just generally getting immersed in it all. Part of that, thankfully, is getting to ask things like "So... how does the IP work?" and "So what's the deal with the Black Crusades, because sometimes it looks like X, and sometimes it looks like Y..."

And when you get the answers, they don't always match the rabid, vocal forum perception, which is often based on old memes and inaccurate lore, anyway.

So what do you do?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

As of late, I've begun to seriously think about the whole Failbaddon meme situation. Are memes such as Failbaddon, the Alpha Legion's nonexistence, Eldrad's dickery, etc. based more on a disregard or outright contempt for GW's fluff?

I don't mean to say so in a condescending, "shame on you!" fashion. I stick to the Failbaddon meme because I find it funny, and for little else. I also do not think that the presence of these memes detract from my immersion into 40k as a whole, in the same way that Deus Ex's "What a Shame" and "A bomb!" do not detract from its enjoyability.

What I mean to say, however is that perhaps fans simply don't care. About two years back, a fellow on /tg/ posted this - and before I get slammed for bringing /tg/ into the equation, I will say that this could be indicative of theirs and others' attitudes towards ultra-powerful or ultra-influential beings like Abaddon. In Abaddon's case, the 13 Black Crusades were just what they needed to take him down a notch, as it were. It wouldn't be the first time players have been contemptuous of ultra-powerful characters; Marneus Calgar comes to mind, and before you-know-who got his hands on him, no less.

This is all to say, perhaps adherents of the Failbaddon meme and others like it don't want to consider Abaddon at all in the context GW has given him, and this meme and the armless meme offer a sort of escape from it. I don't know why that is; maybe it's because a lot of players are more concerned with their own plastic soldiers and their grimdark adventures, as the 1d4chan article suggests, or maybe there's another reason. I sure as hell could not speak for the majority of players because I myself can't wrap my head around this phenomenon.

In any case, it's just a thought; I certainly can't endorse it until I've made up my mind about the whole business. I'll continue thinking about it.



MontytheMighty said:


> Who would rise to take his place?


*
ME! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!*


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> As of late, I've begun to seriously think about the whole Failbaddon meme situation. Are memes such as Failbaddon, the Alpha Legion's nonexistence, Eldrad's dickery, etc. based more on a disregard or outright contempt for GW's fluff?
> 
> I don't mean to say so in a condescending, "shame on you!" fashion. I stick to the Failbaddon meme because I find it funny, and for little else. I also do not think that the presence of these memes detract from my immersion into 40k as a whole, in the same way that Deus Ex's "What a Shame" and "A bomb!" do not detract from its enjoyability.
> 
> ...


That feels unarguably true for a lot of gamers, fans, and readers - and, I'll note, I reckon it's a good and healthy dose of perspective. I also think it's fair to say that even those folks who don't adopt that attitude wholesale will still carry aspects of it around with them. I certainly do, not just for 40K but for a lot of licenses/IPs that I like.

But I find discussion and exchange only breaks down when you've got opinions that directly counter everything about that stance you mention, Prot. In the text Monty quoted, you've got several pages of vitriolic argument insisting this, that, and everything else, with such righteous vehemence, that they're clearly not just getting involved with the memes/ using them for kicks / taking aspects of them / etc. They're insisting the memes are ironclad truth as GW intended, and anyone cites other evidence is either wrong or seeking to distort some objective truth. They don't just care about about this stuff; they practically demand everyone else bows to their vision of it, even if it's wrong - and most importantly, they demand that their interpretation is what 40K _is_, that the way _they_ see it is exactly what GW is actually saying.

I think that's when stuff breaks down. Even the license's contributors (me included) don't say "This is how it is" in our work. I spend a great deal of time and effort on forums and in my writing presenting my perspective of the setting, in a license where there famously "is no canon". But I base all of that on extensive research and the perspectives of many other contributors, too. I also point out that it doesn't make my interpretation any more valid than anyone else's preferences for 40K, but it puts me in pretty good stead to explain stuff that doesn't always come over in the background very clearly.

I say all that as a pretty big fan of the Failbaddon meme, because it's funny - especially when considering almost none of his life or career has ever had any light shone on it. So on one hand, I love that stuff. I put a reference in _Betrayer_ to a pretty famous Kharn meme, too. But on the other hand, it's my job to shine that light and show a lot of the truths between infrequent mentions of vague directives in Black Crusades. Because that's another key difference in topics like this: people who take every written line and cite them as All There Is are still missing the point. There's a great deal of inference in this setting, which is part of why it's so open to interpretation. Abaddon has lived for thousands and thousands of years in a literal Hell, seeing more war and treachery than any living being in the galaxy. If his entire life was distilled down into a few paragraphs and vague talk of a few Black Crusades (or, worse, an ancient store campaign)... I mean, that can't be it. That would make no sense at all. If that was really all there was, then I'd find it easier to commit wholesale to the memes as objective reality. 

I got wildly sidetracked by sidepoints there, but TL;DR: I dig your point a lot, and reckon it holds true, to some degree, for a lot of folks.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> OK I found it. I read this on another forum (there was quite an argument going on):


The discussion on Spacebattles correct? Ah I still remember that. Kinda surprised to see it quoted here.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

One thing though...I don't think you can fault the participants in that Spacebattles thread for citing old newsletters released by GW. I mean, at least they're trying to base their arguments on relevant sources. Whether or not they're misinterpreting said newsletter for their own agendas is another matter. I'm not really qualified to comment as I've never read said newsletter. 

OK...so what is the status of the 13th Black Crusade? The Imperial Nava controls the Cadian space lanes but Chaos controls the planet itself? What's going on? Is the older fluff (newsletters and such) pretty much ignored at GW/BL (i.e. writers essentially enjoy a blank slate to rework the fluff)? 

For the record, I don't mind if Mr. DB disregards older fluff or only uses part of it. I'm fine with that. I'm all for it when BL writers improve previously rather mediocre GW fluff. 

Oh oh, could someone explain the "armless" meme to me?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't think any of the Daemon Primarchs could take control as Warmaster. Nurgle followers would never follow Ahriman. The same can be said for the Khorne/Slaanesh hatred. A new Warmaster would have to be a follower of Chaos Undivided.

I would say Fabius Bile stands a chance, though not all the Legions and Warbands would trust him. But he could offer quite a few of them his augmentations to be stronger. If not, he could always clone Abbadon, but control the clone behind the scenes. That's assuming he cloned him quickly enough to convince the Black Legion that he did not truly die.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Remember only a Primarch has what's needed and both Lorgar and Peturbo are champions of Undivided. I mean why go for a second-stinger when you have two very fanatical and great leaders to replace Abbaddon as leader? Of course Abbaddon ain't gonna be replaced as he is still hanging around so the subject is sort of moot.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Remember only a Primarch has what's needed...


Abaddon is a Primarch then he is? He's been more successful than the Primarchs have ever been.



MontytheMighty said:


> One thing though...I don't think you can fault the participants in that Spacebattles thread for citing old newsletters released by GW. I mean, at least they're trying to base their arguments on relevant sources. Whether or not they're misinterpreting said newsletter for their own agendas is another matter. I'm not really qualified to comment as I've never read said newsletter.
> 
> OK...so what is the status of the 13th Black Crusade? The Imperial Nava controls the Cadian space lanes but Chaos controls the planet itself? What's going on? Is the older fluff (newsletters and such) pretty much ignored at GW/BL (i.e. writers essentially enjoy a blank slate to rework the fluff)?
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, here's what the final newsletter says:



*The Beginning of the End Times*

Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants. While Cadia still stands, humanity has reason to hope, but Abaddon the Despoiler has finally achieved what he has failed to do on twelve previous occasions, over ten thousand years- he has breached the Cadian Gate, and none can now hold back the inexorable tide of Chaos unleashed upon the Imperium of Man. 

*Cadia*

The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’. 

*Agripinaa*

The industrial heartland of the Cadian Gate lies in ruin. Though the Imperial Navy controls space, many worlds of the sector are lost to anarchy and destruction. Agripinaa itself may stand, but without the Agri-worlds of Yayor, Ulthor and Dentor, its populace may yet starve to death, and without the vital materiels provided by the Hive worlds of Albitern, Amistel and Tabor, its mighty forges may yet fall silent. With Typhus, Herald of Nurgle consolidating his grip upon the Ulthor system, as if claiming it as the capital of a nascent, plague-ridden empire of his own, it is apparent that the taint of Chaos is well and truly upon the Agripinaa sector.

*The Space Lanes*

The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands the space lanes, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

_(excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes, I copied and pasted it.)_



Outcome:

The Imperium's hold on the Cadian Gate has been broken and the Eye of Terror is beginning to expand and devour the worlds lost to Chaos (as per Abaddon's plan). The Imperial industrial and agricultural centres in the Cadian Gate have been reduced to ruins. Cadia itself, although maintaining pockets of resistance, is as good as Abaddon's - as is Cadian orbit. The only advantage the Imperium can call upon is the Imperial Navy's access to the inter-system space lanes. But given the wording of the newsletter, the consideration that the 13th Black Crusade is ushering in the Time of Ending, and Abaddon as the bringer of the Apocalypse, the Imperium was never going to push the forces of Chaos back.

Though, it seems, as AD-B said, that GW/BL put no stock in an old store-campaign and it's published results (probably rightly so). But those who claim that the 13th Black Crusade was a stalemate or that the Imperium are poised to retake Cadia are missing the point entirely - this is the Imperium's final hour, that is the theme of 40k. A theme which pretty much requires Chaos to win (or at least not conclusively lose) given the whole _1 minute to midnight_ thing.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Abaddon is a Primarch then he is? He's been more successful than the Primarchs have ever been.


At least he is about as powerful as a Primarch I guess. I mean he is the guy that inherited the things Horus had. As for successful, well he is the threat that rears his head as Lorgar is praying, Perturbo is sleeping and drinking beer, Angron, Magnus and Mortarion are getting banished in humiliating ways and well Fulgrim is occupied being perfect. So yeah, but the Primarches are demons and demons gets banished sooner or later.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *The Beginning of the End Times*
> 
> Darkness has fallen across a hundred worlds, and for the defenders of the Cadian Gate, the pure light of day now seems but a distant memory. Though the forces of the Despoiler have been denied the ultimate prize of the fall of Cadia, Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come. Abaddon and his council of three have outmanoeuvred and out fought the forces of the Imperium at almost every turn. Corpses litter the battlefields in their millions, yet millions more still stand beleaguered, against a foe that knows no mercy and whose only goal is the utter destruction of all who stand before them.
> 
> ...


Someone mentioned on that other thread that there were two newsletters (one Chaos, one Imperial) and that they're both pretty biased

Would the one you've quoted be the Chaos one?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> Would the one you've quoted be the Chaos one?


Does it matter? If there was more than one, then by your own admission neither can be wholly trusted, though the Imperium one would likely contain more propaganda to fit in with that theme.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Someone mentioned on that other thread that there were two newsletters (one Chaos, one Imperial) and that they're both pretty biased
> 
> Would the one you've quoted be the Chaos one?


No, as far as I am aware there was only one "final newsletter".

Publishing two would have been pointless and inconclusive.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Publishing two would have been pointless and inconclusive.


Pointless and inconclusive? Warhammer 40k? Never!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Does it matter? If there was more than one, then by your own admission neither can be wholly trusted, though the Imperium one would likely contain more propaganda to fit in with that theme.


It matters because then we'd know that the truth lies somewhere between the two biased newsletters (as opposed to being accurately reflected in one objective newsletter)...



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, as far as I am aware there was only one "final newsletter".
> 
> Publishing two would have been pointless and inconclusive.


Ah thanks


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