# Theory regarding "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels"



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Right, I got done re-reading "Fallen Angels" recently, and I thought I arrived at a fairly plausible theory on what's going on that doesn't reach too much or overly draw from outside-the-book supposition.

I'll outline my theory chronologically. I'll also qualify what is fact, what is conjecture on my part, and what is a stated belief (but not necessarily fact) of a character.

*SPOILERS ABOUND BELOW...*

(FACT) Lion El'Jonson and the Order engage in open war the Knights of Lupus. Following this struggle, they capture that knighthood's secret library, which includes, among other things, occult treatises and books containing knowledge related to the Warp, Chaos, Daemons and monsters. The contents of this library are taken to Aldurukh ("the Rock"), but kept secret. Some few individuals, though, including Sar Daviel, peruse its contents and thus become aware of (A) Caliban's ancient taint and (B) the fact that the Lion is aware of said taint.

(CONJECTURE) The Lion may or may not have known about the taint of Caliban prior to this, but folowing this discovery, he almost certainly does.

(FACT... and some CONJECTURE) Cypher is recruited into the Order. He almost certainly is the surviving Knight of Lupus, he almost certainly knows about the taint corrupting Caliban, and the Lion has almost certainly made him Lord Cypher so that he can have an expert advise him on this threat... and keep the threat (and Cypher's identity) secret.

Before anything can really be done about the taint, though, the Emperor arrives on Caliban.

(CONJECTURE) The Emperor reveals to the Lion the truth about the Warp and its ties to Caliban. 

(FACT) Terran engineers at some point arrive on Caliban and begin working on rituals meant to *banish* the Daemon whose corruption has tainted Caliban since time immemorial.

(CONJECTURE) The Emperor, who is well aware of sorcery, has put these engineers/sorcerers in place to banish the Daemon. The Lion, aware that forces are at work to cleanse his homeworld, and knowing that his duty is amongst the stars, departs with his Legion.

The Lion's silence on the matter of the taint, however, leads Daviel, Remiel and others to believe that he has betrayed Caliban and abandoned its people to the monsters.

(CONJECTURE) Cypher is left behind for the same reason the veterans of Sarosh will be sent back (see below).

(FACT) The events of Sarosh occur. Luther comes close to letting the Lion die but changes his mind after Zahariel confronts him. The Lion, Luther, Zahariel, Israfael, and others defeat the daemonic entity beneath Sarosh.

(CONJECTURE) The Lion exiles Luther and Zahariel because they were complicit in his near-assassination. He sends with them the veterans of Sarosh (including Israfael) not out of punishment, but because this is the current policy.

Remember, we are only about 140 or so years into the Great Crusade at this point. During the events of both "Horus Rising" and "A Thousand Sons", it is demonstrably shown that Astartes *do not know* of daemons--at least not in these sense revealed in "Descent of Angels".

For this same reason, Cypher has been left behind. He possesses knowledge he shouldn't.

(FACT) Luther begins his exile still loyal. His focus is on recruiting, training, and equipping Astartes, as well as overseeing the affairs of Caliban.

About fifty years pass, during which the rebellion of Caliban begins. Part of the cause is the ham-handed oppression of the Imperium. A great part of it, though, has to do with the return of monsters. We know that the monsters are linked to the Warp. We also know that the Warp feeds off emotions, especially negative ones. As the Imperium's oppression raises said negative emotions, the monsters become more frequent. Until, in a classic case of "chicken or the egg?", the rebellion begins.

Luther initially suppresses knowledge of the rebellion.

(FACT) The incident at the manufactory then occurs. Zahariel tells Luther of what he has seen, but the Master of Caliban suppresses this knowledge as well.

At some point, he takes refuge into the Library beneath Aldurukh.

(CONJECTURE) Cypher, who now knows that the monsters have returned, and ignorant of the efforts of the Terran engineer/sorcerers to banish the Daemon corrupting Caliban, reveals his knowledge and the library's existence to Luther.

ENDSTATE:

Luther and others (this might include Cypher) come to honestly believe that the Lion and the Emperor withheld the truth from them and consigned them to a horrid fate. Their aims are honorable, but horribly unfortunate--they seek to master an ancient Daemon to save Caliban and throw off the yoke of the Imperium.

Zahariel, however, no longer shares their cause--not after he realizes that the Terrans were trying to banish the Daemon, and not summon them. He now probably realizes that events behind the scenes were aimed at solving the issues they were trying to combat (monsters, the taint, etc.).

The tragedy in all this is two-fold.

First, the Imperium's typical disregard toward human life has been a major factor to this. Existence on Caliban has been all about self-sacrifice and protecting people against threats. The Imperial approach--crush the problem with little thought toward the harm wrought on the innocent is anathema to them. In this case, it directly led to the rebellion and, later, to Luther becoming an enemy of the Imperium.

Second, the recurring theme of secrecy leads to the undoing of it all. The Emperor and the Lion likely felt that it all had to be a secret for a number of reasons... first and foremost because knowledge of Daemons, the Warp, etc., would undo all the work of the Imperial Truth. Also, Luther's suppression of knowledge of the rebellion leads to the situation spiralling out of control--since he couldn't have known what forces were fuelling it.

Neither the Lion nor Luther are true villains. Insofar as 40k is concerned, of course. One of the two, the Lion, came to believe (under my theory) that only through great sacrifice (the rituals of the Terrans, assimilation under a quite draconian and tyranical regime) could Caliban be saved. The other, Luther, believed that the most terrible of powers were necessary if his people were to be saved.

Thoughts?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Very interesting ideas Phoebus, but i had a different theory

1. The Cypher is the lone surviving Lupus Knight and Lion'el discovers the taint

2. The Emperor discovers Caliban and does not sense the taint, Lion also does not choose to inform him or act because if he was to reveal the plant he has spent his whole life (up to that point) growing up on is tainted, the Imperium would destroy it, kill as the inhabitants and the Emperor would probably be convinced that Lion'el Johnson himself would be tainted, therefore being forced to kill him. (Also Lion'el would not have the power to stop the Imperium from destroying his planet)

3. Lion'el Johnson leaves Caliban to decay slowly rather than be destroyed at once, and he sends all the un-trustworthy people, or the ones who knew too much and were a threat, to die along with the planet.

4. Luther and the rest discover and sustain the chaos on Caliban, as well as discovering that Lion was waiting to see who would win the Horus Heresy, therefore the Lion pronounced Luther and the rest as traitors, keeping his secret of Betrayal hidden and the the "Fallen" would be unable to communicate with the imperium and reveal Johnsons betrayal...

thats just my theory 
i want to see the thoughts of others..


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Ferrus,

There are three big problems with your theory that I can see:

1. It doesn't account for the Terran engineers/sorcerers who are trying to banish the Daemon.

2. More importantly, if even Israfael could sense the taint of Caliban from the get-go (something he reveals in "Fallen Angels"), it's simply untenable to think that the Emperor--the most powerful psyker alive--wouldn't.

3. As shown in "Fallen Angels", Luther's actions had nothing to do with the idea that the Lion was waiting to see who would win. His decision to rebel ONLY had to do with the notion that the Emperor and the Lion knowingly betrayed Caliban. He THOUGHT they could get away with rebellion because the Heresy was going on at the same time.

Ultimately, I think your theory would have been as valid as any other _before_ "Fallen Angels" was published, but now it's simply disproved by Luther's own admitted motivations. In my humble opinion, of course.

Cheers,
P.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Phoebus, I have a question here. How would the Terran Engineers banish the Daemon? By all accounts, they were fueling the taint on Caliban. 

As shown in Fallen Angels, the Lion is a terrible peoples person. He could have intended to send Luther and retinue back to Caliban to deal with the taint that is (by Zahariel's accounts) similar to that on Sarosh. Zahariel and the gang were the only ones with real experience fighting the taint, so the Lion could have intended for them to get back and fight it once things were in order. 

He may have just forgotten to tell them that, figuring that it was implyed. 
Then he forgot, because he kept recieving "all is well" messages.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Cruor99,

*SPOILER BELOW*

Remember the end of "Fallen Angels"? After awakening from his coma, Zahariel reveals to us, the audience (if not Luther), that he knows the Daemon's true name _and that the ritual was meant to banish_ it... not bring it forth.

The problem is that they took the typical Imperium approach to the problem: meaning, they didn't give a damn about casualties among the innocent. Just as the Imperium as a whole is ostensibly all about protecting Humanity while consigning it to conditions of misery, low life spans, horrific wars, etc.; so did the Terran engineers/sorcerers not care a bit about the tens of thousands of people who would die in the Northwilds Arcology if it meant defeating Caliban's taint.

This would be vintage Emperor: make war on xenos and either eradicate or assimilate them, but secretely base the survival of the Imperium on xenos tech (the Webway); concurrently, outlaw the use of sorcery, but maintain secret cabals of trusted sorcerors to take care of dirty business.

The Lion a terrible peoples' person? Come on, this is little more than a internet meme. MOST of the Primarchs are larger than life and unnerving to normal people and Astartes alike.

Re-read "Fallen Angels", please. The Lion makes jokes, makes a gracious offer to Governor Kulick to save his men, etc. Nemiel, _the only person who expresses negative emotions toward the Lion_ (e.g., fear, dread, etc.), is also a cynic--both in his own eyes and in the eyes of the author.

No offense, but the Lion sending Luther and the gang back to Caliban makes no sense whatsoever. How would they take care of a problem he didn't tell them about? The only way this can be reconciled is if the Lion told Cypher to tell Luther about the taint and Cypher chose not to. But then this doesn't account for the Terran engineers/sorcerers.

Hey may have just forgotten to tell them? I... don't think that's plausible at all.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

You know its kind of interesting, you say your interested in the thoughts of others here Phoebus, but whenever someone ventures a thought or idea that is not in line with your you are fairly quick to shoot that idea down.

Mind you, if the facts are there thats one thing; but if your simply looking to see how many people agree with what your thinking then thats something else entirely.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think I understand what Cruor99 was saying. Though I see it as a more undiplomatic type trait and maybe even a passive feel towards human life. There are some evidence that suggest this mind you. Astellan's accounts of how the Lion used a entire human city as bait for an ork invasion. It was also Luther who pretty much united much of the knightly orders around the Lion.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

darkreever said:


> You know its kind of interesting, you say your interested in the thoughts of others here Phoebus, but whenever someone ventures a thought or idea that is not in line with your you are fairly quick to shoot that idea down.


I like to think that I'm quick to debate it.

But fine, let's take it from your approach. I set out to outline a theory that can be reconciled with the fluff that has been published that far. Am I that wrong for pointing out when a different theory is categorically disproven by the material the individual putting it forth is citing?



> Mind you, if the facts are there thats one thing; but if your simply looking to see how many people agree with what your thinking then thats something else entirely.


If someone wants to discuss my theory, that's great. The fact that I admitted from the get go that there is conjecture in my theory should be an indicator that I'm by no means 100% that it's the final answer.

If someone, on the other hand, wants to outline their own theory, _that's great as well._ Again, though, I don't think I'm somehow stepping on toes if I point out that Source X disputes their assertion.

Nor, incidentally, would I fret if someone pointed out that Source Y disputes my own. :grin:


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Ferrus,
> 
> There are three big problems with your theory that I can see:
> 
> ...


its totally fine to argue against my theory, but now its my turn 

1. Werent the Terran engineers the ones who murdered all the Caliban guardsman, worked along with the demons... anyway if i am wrong about that then why would the engineers attempt to sustain the taint, after all they are only engineers and they failed the control the taint, leading to demons rampaging through the lower decks of civilized areas and power stations...

2. Ok if Israfel could sense that taint then im not going to argue that the Emperor couldnt, but if the fluff was that the librarian* and *the Emperor *could* sense the taint, then surely during the Great Crusade there would be no caliban, no Lion'el Johnson and all the Dark Angel who originate from Caliban would be dead.... as ive stated before if the Emperor would realize that the planet one of his sons as spent his whole life growing up on is tainted by Chaos (the deadliest enemy) he would undoubtly execute Lion'el.

3. Yes i agree with you Luther rebeled agaisnt the Imperium because of Lion'el Johnson leaving them to die on Caliban and not because of Johnson's betrayal to the emperor, ive already said this.... 



> 3. Lion'el Johnson leaves Caliban to decay slowly rather than be destroyed at once, and he sends all the un-trustworthy people, or the ones who knew too much and were a threat, to die along with the planet.
> 
> 4. Luther and the rest discover and sustain the chaos on Caliban, as well as discovering that Lion was waiting to see who would win the Horus Heresy, therefore the Lion pronounced Luther and the rest as traitors, keeping his secret of Betrayal hidden and the the "Fallen" would be unable to communicate with the imperium and reveal Johnsons betrayal...


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> its totally fine to argue against my theory, but now its my turn
> 
> 1. Werent the Terran engineers the ones who murdered all the Caliban guardsman, worked along with the demons... anyway if i am wrong about that then why would the engineers attempt to sustain the taint, after all they are only engineers and they failed the control the taint, leading to demons rampaging through the lower decks of civilized areas and power stations...


Yes, they were! :grin:

Here's the thing. Zahariel realizes they were trying to banish the Daemon that was corrupting Caliban. Were they failing? In a way, yes... but not in the way we think. If I'm right, the Imperium failed because they were trying to contain the problem while _at the same time_ being responsible for the conditions that made it worse (the arcologies, making the people resent them, violence, etc.).

If I'm wrong, then we need to wait until the next book to find out just WHERE those guys came from. Because otherwise it becomes really hard to explain a bunch of Terrans who are _part_ of the Imperial effort on Caliban and who also know sorcery and who also know about the taint and who also are trying to banish the Daemon responsible for it. Too many coincidences!



> 2. Ok if Israfel could sense that taint then im not going to argue that the Emperor couldnt, but if the fluff was that the librarian* and *the Emperor *could* sense the taint, then surely during the Great Crusade there would be no caliban, no Lion'el Johnson and all the Dark Angel who originate from Caliban would be dead.... as ive stated before if the Emperor would realize that the planet one of his sons as spent his whole life growing up on is tainted by Chaos (the deadliest enemy) he would undoubtly execute Lion'el.


No, not really. The Emperor accepted a complete sociopath (Night Haunter) and an insane killing machine (Angron). By contrast, Lion El'Jonson was completely lucid and any taint would have been revealed to the Emperor's powers. Why kill him if he wasn't tainted?

Hence why the Terran engineer/sorcerers were brought in. The Emperor knew about the Warp, sorcery, etc. And we know he was kind of a hypocrite when it comes to xenos tech, mind powers, etc. :grin:

As for Luther's reasoning, I only mentioned what I did because you _also_ stated that he believed the Lion was waiting to see who would win... and that was not the case.

Cheers,
P.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Ferrus Manus said:


> its totally fine to argue against my theory, but now its my turn
> 
> 1. Werent the Terran engineers the ones who murdered all the Caliban guardsman, worked along with the demons... anyway if i am wrong about that then why would the engineers attempt to sustain the taint, after all they are only engineers and they failed the control the taint, leading to demons rampaging through the lower decks of civilized areas and power stations...


I think that the Terran's were doing what they needed to do to get rid of the demonic taint for good. To me it seemed like they needed to get it all in one place before they could banish it, other wise it would just recycle again like it did when you killed a monster. To the ignorant locals it seemed like they were doing evil things. Maybe those guards men were part of a cult, or needed to die as part of the summoning ritual. Seem like the Emperor did not trust the locals to do the right thing so he kept them in the dark, thinking they were loyal and would follow his orders. (/WRONG!) 

I also think that the Lion choose the Astartes who were sent back purposefully. I think he wanted them to stop the Terrans that is why he sent Cypher. I also thing he sent Luther because he would succeed and at the same time disgrace himself so he would be out of his way. I think he became a threat to the Lion's control of the legion as he was seen as a almost equal.

The others i feel were chosen because of a perceived character flaw that woud allow them to side with Luther against the Terrens. I see the Lion wanting to have his cake (stop the Emperor from cleaning his world), and eat it too (not get the blame). 

The Lion was mad over not being named the War-Master. Maybe he thought the Emp screwed the the galaxy and would not let him do it to Caliban.


Now to the side thread that has been talked about. We all are lucky tht we have forums like this to bounce our thoughts off of those who share our interests/ passion. I like it when people disagree with me. It helps to have thick skin when reading disagreement. It is hard read the true emotion behind posts so i try (and fail sometimes) to not take it personally.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Phoebus, 
I see the point you make now. Quite interesting, I didn't notice that particular part before. Or well, I didn't pay heed to it. Quite interesting, indeed. 

And on the part of the Lion being a bad peoples person. I might have came out wrong with that. What I mean, is not that he can't socialize and play on people's emotions. That is all part of politics and tactics. What I mean about a people's person, is the fact that he can't read people.

You mentioned yourself the part about where he flatters the Governor, and that is all part of politics. But when he then asks Nemiel about the Magos and the Governor, that gives an interesting look into the Lion's main flaw. 

He was raised in the wild. The Calibanite wild. He is not human, less so than the other primarchs perhaps. He is the last Calibanite Lion, so to say  

And the part about sorcery, I do not find it as part of a hypocrisy on the behalf of the Emperor. I think he, as many other leaders among history, figured out that the general populace would not understand sorcery and warp-stuff. I believe that the Emperor saw in the Thousand Sons what he feared himself if the populace knew about Chaos and the warp in the same way. And that may be why he then hid the Terran Engineers as he did, however tragic the outcome became. 

I like your theory, it is quite interesting. 
And I say interesting to much :/


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> The others i feel were chosen because of a perceived character flaw that woud allow them to side with Luther against the Terrens.


Why send back Israfael, then? The man was staunchly loyal to the Emperor.



> I see the Lion wanting to have his cake (stop the Emperor from cleaning his world), and eat it too (not get the blame).
> ...
> The Lion was mad over not being named the War-Master. Maybe he thought the Emp screwed the the galaxy and would not let him do it to Caliban.


What does the former of the two complaints have to do with his aims for Caliban though? Furthermore, that seems like an extreme, vague, and convoluted scheme when compared to his clearly-planned and executed agenda to gain influence/become the Warmaster by denying him the weapons he needs.

If he thinks the Emperor screwed the galaxy, how exactly is he undoing any of this by (A) fighting for him or (B) by striking against the one individual who has the power to stand against the Emperor (Horus)?

I'd like to hear some more of what role you think Cypher played in all this, if you don't mind. He's quite the elusive one. :grin:



Cruor99 said:


> Phoebus,
> What I mean about a people's person, is the fact that he can't read people.


Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I see this online all the time. Fact of the matter is, I think a lot of folks are overanalyzing *Nemiel's* opinion of the Primarch, which is just that.

I'd posit that Astartes are so used to holding the Primarchs over themselves as these flawless, god-like beings, that they are totally unprepared when one of them doesn't act like this holier-than-thou being. The Lion asked for his opinion, and Nemiel came up with a crisis of faith. What's more likely? That the Lion can't read people, or that Nemiel can't read Primarchs?



> You mentioned yourself the part about where he flatters the Governor, and that is all part of politics. But when he then asks Nemiel about the Magos and the Governor, that gives an interesting look into the Lion's main flaw.


Actually, I was talking about their encounter after Archoi's treachery, when only the Governor and 100-200 of his soldiers are left. The Lion tells him that they have suffered enough, and asks them to allow the Astartes to take over their burden.



> And the part about sorcery, I do not find it as part of a hypocrisy on the behalf of the Emperor. I think he, as many other leaders among history, figured out that the general populace would not understand sorcery and warp-stuff.


Oh, I know and I agree in fact. It's still a bit hypocritical, but given the context of the 40k universe, it's completely understandable why the Emperor would want to hide all that.

Thanks for the kind words, by the way.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

I think we've got a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B here, Phoebus. 

When I think about it, he asks for Nemiel's opinion on the techpriest. A techmagos (albeit a traitor at that point and obviously covering for himself) being one of the, possibly, hardest things to get any kind of personality out of. I can definately see myself (and others) over-emphasizing that particular encounter. 

However, I think that in the larger picture, the Lion was just not that carismatic a leader. As I stated before, when Luther found him, the Lion had already spent a good amount of time alone in the wilderness of Caliban. Keep in mind, this is the same wilderness that is tainted by Chaos and rife with the foulest beasts immaginable. He would have been there alone, only being able to rely on himself and his skills. 
Such things do not easily go away, especially not on the mind of a Primarch (which, I assume, can be generally assumed to be equal to a grown man's intellect almost within the first months of existance.) 

The Lion not interracting with people may have been what caused this downfall to happen. Lorgar met religious fanatics, and was brought into their cult. He became the person to start the Imperial Cult. One can assume that this has something to do with pre-destination and such, but let's not delve to much into that. Cruze as well is a prime example on a Primarch being shaped by his growth. He lived in a lawless and decadent society, and took on the role as a vigilante through fear-tactics. That led to the way his legion acted. Why is the Lion any different? Something of the Taint has to be there still. 

And I believe that has something to do with The Lion's inability to put his full trust in people. Any people. Keep in mind, he was probably aware that Luther considered killing him off then and there when he found him. Luther may have raised him as his own, but to the Lion, Luther may have been more of a "lion-tamer" so to say


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Cruor99 said:


> When I think about it, he asks for Nemiel's opinion on the techpriest.


Indeed. To which I ask, what's wrong with that? This is hardly the first time we've seen Primarchs ask for an Astartes' opinion.



> A techmagos (albeit a traitor at that point and obviously covering for himself) being one of the, possibly, hardest things to get any kind of personality out of.


Agreed. Hence why it makes even more sense that the Lion would be looking for a second opinion. It's qualified in the book that he is concerned about Horus having pre-established agents to do his will throughout the Imperium. 



> However, I think that in the larger picture, the Lion was just not that carismatic a leader.


I don't see the evidence for this. The closest we can arrive at this conclusion is that Luther was the spokesman for the Lion's plan to unify Caliban. By that same argument, though, the Lion may simply have understood the advantage of an established icon carrying the weight of public relations. Luther had been around for decades and was a legend; the Lion but for a few years, an unknown quantity, and--judging by the initial reaction of the knights who found him--perhaps a bit feared.

The common thread I'm seeing here is that the Lion isn't so full of himself as to try to do everything on his own. 



> Why is the Lion any different? Something of the Taint has to be there still.


The Emperor would have sensed it. He would have been "Records Wiped" #3.



> And I believe that has something to do with The Lion's inability to put his full trust in people. Any people.


Like Nemiel? When it comes down to just 60 of them being able to fight the Sons of Horus, the siege weapons and their lives on the line, and an untested last-ditch plan to carry the day?

The only people the Lion showed he categorically did not trust was the guy that thought about letting him get blown up and the guy that tried to cover for him. :grin:


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

There is no direct evidence for the Lion being less charismatic. 
It is, however, heavily implied that he would have never been able to rid Caliban of the 
Great Beasts without Luther there to rally the people. Then again, this could come down to what you claimed. But that seems kind of.. odd. 

And I do not believe the Emperor would have purged the records of Caliban and the first legion because of some taint on Caliban. Looking towards Lorgar, it is heavily implied that they worshipped Chaos in some way on Colchis before the Emperor found them, and that it is through that Kol Phaeron introduced it to the Golden-skinned Primarch.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, I look at it this way. It's opinion, so take it for what you will.

Different Primarchs arrived at different leadership positions due to the unique situations each encountered in their adopted homeworlds.

Leman Russ, for example, was adopted by a king on a planet rife with internecine warfare. By Fenrisian society, what he said was law. So, charisma or not ("A Thousand Sons" doesn't exactly advertise him as the bawdy, brawling barbarian we've known and loved), Fenrisians he conquered were more or less obligated to obey him.

By contrast, the Lion was found and "adopted" by knights belonging to the Order--a meritocratic association of knights that placed no stock in nobility, station, etc. Had the Lion come out and started ordering around knights senior to him in age and experience, he would have been going against the grain of his society. Luther was (technically) senior to him and already famous when the Crusade against the Beasts was proposed. The Lion only was proclaimed Supreme Grand Master following the completion of the Crusade--ten years of unprecedented warfare and quests led by the Lion.

You'll note there are parallels found to corroborate this in other Primarchs' tales as well. Guilliman, for example, had a far different upbringing as a son of a Consul than Fulgrim did. The latter had to earn his way through the ranks of workers, engineers and executives to finally arrive at the point that he was entrusted with the workings of Chemos itself--and even then, the impetus behind the alliance of his city-state with the rest on that planet was the dire need of resources.

As for Colchis and Lorgar, you make excellent points. I suppose we'll have to wait until "The First Heretic" to see to what degree that planet was actually corrupted by Chaos.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Let's just say I eagerly anticipate The First Heretic. I read the teaser on the author's blog (also posted here on heresy in the new news blog thing) and boy am I psyched. 

But you bring up a good point when it comes to the Lion. His position at the time was that of a nobody (to everyone but The Order). However, (I might be totally off here, been some time since I read Descent of Angels, and I do not have the book with me) didn't the rest of the knightly orders resent what The Order was trying to do, taking a somewhat more passive stance of that of the Knights of Lupus? This might be me confusing the resentment towards the Imperials for removing the nobility with it being somewhat similar of what The Order was trying to do. 

I also seem to remember Descent of Angels mentioning (this at a great Feast, either that of Zahariel's slaying of the Beast, or The Lion's appointment to grand master) how Luther and El'Johnson complementing each other. Luther having the Charisma and leadership to gather everyone together, and El'Johnson being the tactical mastermind and brilliant strategic leader. In other terms, look at Luther being a sort of Chaplain or Priest to The Order, while El'Johnson was more along the lines of Chapter Master/Tactical Genius(Creeeeeed!!  ) 

As for Leman Russ, A Thousand Sons gives a brilliant look into the Fenrisian primarch. If you remember, I believe it was Ahriman who had but a single sentence that was quite interesting. It went something along the lines of Russ putting up a barbaric and brutish appearance and Ahriman saw something in Russ that showed that it was but an act. 

This showing, that Leman Russ may have been the brawly drunk barbarian of Fenris that we've all come to love. But only to those he wanted to. To the others, he might have been just as bad as Angron. 

A Thousand Sons is also interesting in that Lorgar shows how The Wolf and The Lion were closer as brothers than many of the other Primarchs. This due to the incident where The Lion knocked Russ out cold.

_Quite intersting._


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Cruor99 said:


> Let's just say I eagerly anticipate The First Heretic. I read the teaser on the author's blog (also posted here on heresy in the new news blog thing) and boy am I psyched.


Likewise, man--it should be really good. 



> ... didn't the rest of the knightly orders resent what The Order was trying to do, taking a somewhat more passive stance of that of the Knights of Lupus?


As I recall, there are two major points of contention against the Order.

The first, which I believe predates the Lion, was that the Order did not recruit exclusively from the warrior-nobles of Caliban, which was seen as going against the grain of the established culture and society.

Mind you, it might be that the Lion deferred to Luther for convincing the others _because_ the Order already had a strike against it, and a young member trying to act like the leader of all would be reminescent of this. But that's just my opinion.

The second was when the Knights of Lupus questioned the Order's Crusade to rid Caliban of the Beasts. They (the Knights of Lupus) enjoyed little to no support over this stance.



> This might be me confusing the resentment towards the Imperials for removing the nobility with it being somewhat similar of what The Order was trying to do.


The Calibanites resented the Imperium coming in and completely changing their lives and their world. Remember, by the time the Emperor arrives, the Lion has cleaned out Caliban--no more monsters. The Calibanites, for a short time at least, were probably quite happy with a lush, beautiful, and now safe world. In comes the Emperor, whose followers level all the forests and force everyone into hive-like arcologies.

_The nobles_ were peeved that they lost their status, but this was hardly the pressing worry among the population.



> I also seem to remember ... Luther and El'Johnson complementing each other. Luther having the Charisma and leadership to gather everyone together, and El'Johnson being the tactical mastermind and brilliant strategic leader.


I remember this when they mentioned the whole plan for the Crusade.



> As for Leman Russ, A Thousand Sons gives a brilliant look into the Fenrisian primarch.


Oh, agreed. My whole point was that, even _if_ Russ really wasn't the Russ we love, his society was one that would follow him simply because he was the strongest and wore the crown. The Calibanites didn't think like that, though.

Good words!


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The first, which I believe predates the Lion, was that the Order did not recruit exclusively from the warrior-nobles of Caliban, which was seen as going against the grain of the established culture and society.


Ah yes, that it was. 

Anyways, I have to commend you for holding my interest like this. A really _interesting_ (can't seem to get away from that word..) discussion we've had. 

I feel I should give you some rep!


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