# What does Tzeentch represent, exactly?



## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

See, i have a slight confusion with Tzeentch's position as a Chaos God... For one he doesn't actually seem very chaotic, seeing as it just plans and plans and never does anything.

Maybe it's because with the other 3; You can link to the worlds 'Evils' at the moment;

Khorne would represent: War, Hatred, Anger.
Nurgle would represent: Disease, Decay
and Slaanesh would cover Moral-evils: Rape, Paedophilia, Lies, Slander, and anything else that is quite obviously a sin of the Purple Pervert.

But Tzeentch...? I just can't see how he's in anyway deserving of his place in the big 4.

Anyone want to enlighten me?

ROT out.


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## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

Ambitoin,plotting and, change i think and also psychic powers


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

dont think about it to hard it hurts your brain


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

cragnes417 said:


> Ambitoin,plotting and, change i think and also psychic powers


Ambition and Plotting aren't evil, and Change is only Evil if you are that was inclined. Because Change can be Good; where as Rape, War and Disease are horrific in the majority of angles it can be looked at.

_No i'm not asking for a debate on whether War is good, Because I really don't want that argument; It's just seen as a horrific evil by most people._

And Psychic Powers are used throughout all armies.

What i mean by what does 'Tz' represent, is in terms of evils of our world.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He represents change, hope, human ambition, and so on. You're confused as to what the gods really are; emotion. The gods are human emotion taken to extreme and beyond.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Well, you have to remember that the gods are not 'evil' in the general sense of the word.

I always consider Tzeentch to be the god of the gods.

Tzeentch feeds off change. 

As i see it, that is the closest thing to the word 'chaos' and is possibly as opposite as you can get to the other big 3 in that they constantly seek the same sort of adoration and worship.


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## Malak Falco (Jul 1, 2010)

Chaos isn't pure evil... However the Warp tends to erode anything resembling sanity or base humanity which means the resulting corruption tends to amount to the same thing where non-warp entities are concerned. 

Still. Tz's plans tend to hold Not Nice Things for your average Imperium world/system/sector. Plus Knowledge tends to drive people insane.... and yea...


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> He represents change, hope, human ambition, and so on. You're confused as to what the gods really are; emotion. The gods are human emotion taken to extreme and beyond.


 But surely the idea of Chaos is that they are the bad-guys. Which would roughly translate by Nerd-Law to them being evil. And I don't think Hope and Human Ambition are particularly a Negative emotion.
If anything, Ambition is a Good emotion... You have to remember that they aren't the 4 Gods in general
They are the 4 Gods of Chaos.



increaso said:


> Well, you have to remember that the gods are not 'evil' in the general sense of the word.
> 
> As i see it, that is the closest thing to the word 'chaos' and is possibly as opposite as you can get to the other big 3 in that they constantly seek the same sort of adoration and worship.


 But the Gods ARE evil, maybe evil is the wrong word, But they seek the demise and destruction of the Human race, for no tactical reason other than they want to see the IoM suffer and die.
That's Evil.
And again i disagree, If we're going to go by the actual definition of Chaos being: 

_–noun
1.
a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order._

Planning and plotting, is the complete opposite of this. So I'm still convinced Tzeentch has no place in the Big 4, and with more and more discussion, I'm starting to not understand why he's a God of Chaos at all.



Malak Falco said:


> Still. Tz's plans tend to hold Not Nice Things for your average Imperium world/system/sector. Plus Knowledge tends to drive people insane.... and yea...


See that makes alot more sense... But I would also disagree to a certain extent. If Tzeentch's Link to the ideals of Chaos is that he doesn't like the IoM, then that's a really crap judgement for him being in the big 4.

I'm sure there is a Lesser-God, with a more Chaotic sense of evil, opposed to Planning, and Change.

I just don't see how he fits.


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

they are supposed to be the extremes of human emotion. 

Ambition can work both ways, a mans ambition can be as deadly as any plague, in the pusuit of his goal, a man can cause the other three to occur.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Good and evil are a matter of perspective.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

bobg said:


> they are supposed to be the extremes of human emotion.
> 
> Ambition can work both ways, a mans ambition can be as deadly as any plague, in the pusuit of his goal, a man can cause the other three to occur.


 Even if that's the case... Why is the God of Ambition; which you've established to be an ambiguous emotion- Representing 'CHAOS' as a member of the Big 4..
I can accept that some people will see Tzeentch as evil... But the my point remains... why is he in the Big 4?

Surely something like *Pride* or *Tragedy* would be related to Chaos more than *Ambition* and *Hope*.



gen.ahab said:


> Good and evil are a matter of perspective.


 So unless you REALLY think Chaos aren't evil... then my opinions _(which I stress are mine, and i'm not trying to make you believe them)_ would become relevant.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

One mans ambition caused a war that resulted in over 70 million deaths and attempted genocide


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## bobg (Feb 15, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> One mans ambition caused a war that resulted in over 70 million deaths and attempted genocide


That being my point.  

The other emotions go both way's. you can be overexcessive in trying to love and still harm.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Tzeentch represents many things. He is worshipped as the god of lies, deceiving, cheating and about the twisted morbid reality behind every dream. Among them he is about mostly change. This is perfect because change itself has different aspects. In this sense Tzeentch is about psychology becuase he represents the dark half of every human soul, nay every living being. He cheats and lies to his victims so that this dark side is brought up and consumes their very soul. This is what makes him evil.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> But surely the idea of Chaos is that they are the bad-guys. Which would roughly translate by Nerd-Law to them being evil. And I don't think Hope and Human Ambition are particularly a Negative emotion.
> If anything, Ambition is a Good emotion... You have to remember that they aren't the 4 Gods in general
> They are the 4 Gods of Chaos.


They are the bad guys. As it happens, WH40K is an universe without any _good_ guys, so they aren't exactly alone.



> But the Gods ARE evil, maybe evil is the wrong word, But they seek the demise and destruction of the Human race, for no tactical reason other than they want to see the IoM suffer and die.
> That's Evil.


The chaos gods themselves are highly irrational and destructive, but the concepts they're based on aren't meant to be evil (though some of them are) so much as tainted reflections of human emotion taken to illogical extremes. So from a lighter perspective big T is all about planning and knowledge, but in practice he's more of a paranoid and secretive deity who can never follow through with any of his plans.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@ROT,
I think they are evil, but they don't.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Have you read Macbeth? (if not you should :biggrin

The witches are a spot on allegory for Tzeentch. Their manipulative words are vague and sparse, yet ignite dark ambition, fear and mania in Macbeth and those around him. 

Tzeentch is like a child with a set of dominoes, carefully standing them on end and manoeuvring them into the right places, nudging them into order, always seeing the bigger picture - before slightly tapping the first and bringing them all crashing down.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

ROT said:


> Surely something like *Pride* or *Tragedy* would be related to Chaos more than *Ambition* and *Hope*.


I believe that pride is in Khorne's jurisdiction, as is courage, and loyalty.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Tzeench, like the rest of the big four represents the worst of humanity. Tzeench is complete and utter insanity, there is no rhyme or reason to what Tzeench does he just does it. Tzeench may one day bless you with the greatest psychic power the galaxy has ever seen the very next he could strip it away and leave you a gibbering wreck. 
For this reason Tzeench probably represnts true Chaos better than the other three put together. 
Nurgle, Tzeench's opposite, doesn't represent disease he represents stagnation and tradition. There's nothing evil about tradition until you take the concept as far as Nurgle. 
There is nothing evil about hope, change or knowledge until you take it as far as Tzeench.
But evil is still the wrong word when describing the Chaos Gods, what they are transends the concept of good and evil.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

First of all, the Chaos Gods are not solely based on evil stuff. Slaanesh isn't just moral evils; she is also love, art, etc. It just so happens that the positive stuff she represents is so compressed it inevitebly twists and becomes evil. Love turns to obsession, appreciation for beauty into selfish hedonism, etc.

The same goes for Tzeentch. He starts with the good kind of ambition, but it gets twisted and by the end its the "I want to take over the universe and kill everything in my way"-kind of ambition. You start with wanting to improve things and end up with uncontrolable mutation.

Tzeentch is also the most paradoxial of the Chaos Gods. Out of them all he is the one who holds the most chaotic aspect (change) and the most orderly aspect (plotting).

Finally, what does it say about a universe if the dieties of love and hope are evil?


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## Annihilus (Oct 24, 2010)

ROT said:


> Ambition and Plotting aren't evil, and Change is only Evil if you are that was inclined. Because Change can be Good; where as Rape, War and Disease are horrific in the majority of angles it can be looked at.
> 
> _No i'm not asking for a debate on whether War is good, Because I really don't want that argument; It's just seen as a horrific evil by most people._
> 
> ...


Tz is the extreme forms of intrigue and change. Stability is a curse word to him. His changes are rarely benificial to mortals, except his followers, rarely. He is the lord of deception also. Just as the other gods are extreme examples of the emotions/ideals they represents so is he.


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## WarMaster Sindr (Jun 23, 2010)

:biggrin:


Annihilus said:


> Tz is the extreme forms of intrigue and change. Stability is a curse word to him. His changes are rarely benificial to mortals, except his followers, rarely. He is the lord of deception also. Just as the other gods are extreme examples of the emotions/ideals they represents so is he.


just to add alittle Tz reprensents anything that changes like how humans have atleast 5 or more emotions running in their body at all times so he feed when one takes over or you lie to futher a personal goal he is deception 

“Do not ask which creature screams in the night. Do not question who waits for you in the shadow. It is my cry that wakes you in the night, and my body that crouches in the shadow. I am Tzeentch and you are the puppet that dances to my tune...” 

- The Book of Tzeentch - Codex: Chaos Space Marines


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## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

I've read through most of this, and the first thing I'll establish before rambling on is that "evil" is a matter of perspective and morals. That said, I'll proceed:

The Chaos Gods are, essentially, the psychic manifestations of the hopes, dreams, desires, and passions of mortals. They are purely emotional and immaterial, which is why they exist in the ethereal realm of the Warp. Technically speaking, they _are_ the Warp.

Additionally, Chaos is not inherently "good" or "evil" until morals are applied to it. When considered logically (which is sort of a misnomer) Chaos is purely random. No inclination toward any alignment (see: Dungeons & Dragons, chaotic good characters and chaotic evil). Chaos is simply a state of ignoring ruels and established order.

The Chaos gods require the efforts and struggles of mortals to sustain themselves. They exist off of the emotions of mortals, both those devoted to them _or otherwise._ For Khorne, blood is blood.

Tzeentch represents the capacity for rational beings to plot, plan, and scheme endlessly. He embodies the constant thought processes of mortals. And not all mortals are purely logical. Maniacal and mad plotters have risen and fallen throughout history, thus Tzeentch has attained both their genius and madness. Tzeentch has no goal, for if he ever reached it he would cease to exist. He exists to plan; so he will for eternity, manipulating the realms of the Warp and material existence forever.

The Chaos gods gain power from their followers because a linked is formed between worshipper and god. The reason their followers commit such acts of attrocity is because of the huge emotional surge that results. Sorrow, horror, rage, jealousy, betrayal; the whole gamut of emotions. For Tzeentch, there are also the battle plans, the twists of fate, the random chances and desperate countermeasures to add to his sustenance.

However, as the books are written we are meant to view the Warhammer universes from the human aspect. Human morals generally indicate that excessive bloodshed, debauchery, self-serving scheming, and deliberate mutilation are evil. So the Imperium/Empire/Brettonians view the Chaos gods who condone such behavior as evil.

EDIT 1 - Also, does not the Imperium do some pretty nasty stuff? Exterminatus anyone? How 'bout the Inquisition? Meat grinder Guard? The list goes on... 40k is kind of "evil" in general  just a matter of how evil :wink:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

always believed that Tzeentch is the king of the gods, well i did until i transferred from fantasy to 40k lore and then i kinda worked out that there are times when the other gods are in ascendance..anyway that being said tzeentch is the great weaver, the master of fate, the changer of ways, the great magician all this and more. 
he might not do what his counterparts do on such an obvious scale but he seems to me to be the thinker of the four, he watches the strand of fate and all its conculsions and makes his choice based on what he sees...or does not see. of all the big 4 i would say he is the most dangerous.

khorne is blood you know maim, burn kill, skulls and violence wrapped up on one massive figure atop a throne of skulls and people know what they get wth Khorne.

Nurgle is disease, rot, palgues wrapped up in a bloated figure that likes to be called grandfather!!!! if my beloved grandfathers looked like that i'd be shitting myself 

Slaanesh the prince of pain, she who will not be named, the prince of darkness, the queen of pleasure...aside from having a sexual identity problem u know what you get with slaanesh adn what dark devious machinations turn this god, the eldar run from him and hide as far as they can from him sp tats saying something

but Tzeentch can never really be predicted, not even Magnus can predict the whims of his master and who'd want to piss off a master of fate like the great serpent.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Every Chaos god can be considered to have a good and evil aspect.

Khorne: Martial Honour, Pride, warrior skill. But also murder, war, bloodshed and hatred.

Nurgle: Renewal and recycling, rebirth. But also death, decay and despair.

Slaanesh: Love and passion, Art, joy. But also Lust, depravity and desire.

Tzeentch: Knowledge and wisdom, evolution and progress. But also lies and deceit, sorcery and degeneration.


In essence, Chaos does not represent good or evil. They just are.


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## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

You think too generally, but then again your human, Eldar don't have this problem we just want to gut Slaanesh! Not consider whether or not the Lord of Change is evil or no... and what gen.ahab said "Good and evil are a matter of perspective." Cheers!


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Every Chaos god can be considered to have a good and evil aspect.
> 
> Khorne: Martial Honour, Pride, warrior skill. But also murder, war, bloodshed and hatred.
> 
> ...


You are really gifted at explaining hard topics :drinks:
I totally agree. To me they don't exactly represent evil. IMO they rep the emotions of humans, but ALL of them rep the ability of corruption and misusing (so to speak) that emotion.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

evil depends on everyones perspective, just as good, the chaos gods aren't either, thier whole ploy is unpredictability and thats what makes them what they are. by the time you worked out what TZ is upto he has already moved onto another subject, just the way he is


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Good and evil are a matter of perspective.


Yes, but something has happened to the warp
that made the Chaos Gods more extreme and twisted.

Human instability or if you will human evil, or something
have made the Chaos Gods as bad or as .. twisted as they are.
Once the warp was calm and undisturbed,

In additon, the universe is just cold and indifferent
and Chaos reflects that.

Humanity is afraid of chaos, afraid of the universe itself
and kind of collectively psychotic,
Lets face it, mankind is going insane from dealing with reality
or the universe, existental angst.

So human feelings kind of reinforce the hostile traits in the universe,

Thats the warp.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

gothik said:


> evil depends on everyones perspective, just as good, the chaos gods aren't either, thier whole ploy is unpredictability and thats what makes them what they are. by the time you worked out what TZ is upto he has already moved onto another subject, just the way he is


 
I dont think Tz himself knows what his masterplan is.

I imagine Tz has clones of himself from different timelines,
all versions of all the possible choices he could do
and all are constantly working against eachother.
Tz is working against himself, and I dont think he has the slightest
idea who he really is.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Tzeench, his sustanance comes from the emotion of hope but hope pushed to such extreme levels that it has become nothing but an endless desire for change. He used to be among the most poerful of the gods but when the other three united to defeat him he voulantarily gave up the source of his power (his crystal staff) which was shatterd, the shards becoming all the spells in the mortal realms. To Tzeench any notion of stability is utterly alien so much so that he may have orchestrated his own fall from power out of a need for change. His nature is essentialy contradictory for should the great game ever end with tzeench triumphant he would likley destroy himself out of a desire for change.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Good and evil are a matter of perspective.


exactly, i doubt Hitler would have described himself as evil......everyone else does


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Every Chaos god can be considered to have a good and evil aspect.
> 
> Khorne: Martial Honour, Pride, warrior skill. But also murder, war, bloodshed and hatred.
> 
> ...


 


None of the Chaos Gods have any redeeming qualities. The martial honour and pride are not virtues. Arrogance and Pride are not qualities wanted in warriors. That's what leads to murder,bloodshed,and despair is not what Khorne is about. 

Slaanesh doesn't give two shits about love and the passion that he involves himself in is not the kind found in lovers. Sadistic hedonsim with no purpose but the fufillment of sensation and pleasure are his only goals. 

Tzeentch is no mystery either. Though Knowledge I'll agree with there is no "wisdom" to Tzeentch. You asked what he represents? I'll tell you as it is what they all represent. Excess without any hint of control or limit. What do I mean? I'll explain:

Tzeentch- He has no ultimate goal. His plots if any mortal mind could see them lead back into other plots which map into other plots. He does this because he was created and exists by the principles that created him. He schemes to scheme. He plots to plot. He is literally insane and you wante to know how he fits in? There may seem to be order in his plots but even his own minions know he will sacrifice them to keep the plot moving along. If he ever reached an ultimate goal he would cease to exist as he only knows plotting and manipulation.

Slaanesh-Same deal. He's not looking for the right girl/boy to fall for or leading his troops to find their soul mates. He's doing what he was created by which are the excessive headonistic and sadistic thoughts of the eldar manifest. Nowhere is love involved in this. He exists only to perpetuate what created him just like his brothers.

Nurgle-Again same deal he exists only to do what created him. Pestilence and decay giving you eternal life and power with freedom from death. He has no end as he is like his brothers insane. 

Khorne- The blood god is the best example of the driving point. He overtly states this by his saying Khorne cares not from where the blood flows,only that it does. He was created by bloodshed in war. You think martial honor means anything to a guy like Kharn (who has the Gods favor) who's known as the Betrayer ie the guy you can't trust? Ovcourse not,martial prowess is all that matters because it means more bloodshed and skulls. Khorne bellows maniacally for only one thing a top the skull throne, more.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

So the 4 chaos Gods are about bad emotion in the extreme way. 

I wonder if they come up with a God that is the opposite of chaos. 
And why not have powerful entity that is made up of good emotion like compassion, love, or happiness.

I understand that strong emotion like anger, jealously , lust , despair , hatred will feel much sharper or can be more destructive compared to good tranquil emotion. But I'm thinking emotion is emotion in a way. Compassion, happiness, joy, love can also be as strong . 

I mean unless chaos twist everything ..even the good emotion.


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## Thebluemage2 (Feb 16, 2012)

Someone does not know of the Greet changer of ways?

I am glad I got here in time...

First of, The only race that,as a whole is realy "Evil" are the Dark Eldar, Chaos is not evil,they are the Embodiment of Human Emotions taken to the Utmost extreme, thus ,they represent the Dark-side of Humanity. {And Eldar,in Slaanesh's case}

But now onto how Tz fits in with the other chaos gods, he represents Change,Mutation,ploting,ambition,and knowledge, all these things can easily cause Chaos,

Change and Mutation shuld be simple for everyone here.


When Ploting, you are basicly planning to kill someone in power,like a ruler, which will cause chaos.

Ambition has caused some of the Greatest Wars in history, both in real-life and 40K,and we all know how wars cause chaos.

Knowledge on its own,just like most of the things up here, is not bad on its own, but when you Tzeetch it up, then it can cause mass-insanity, which will cause mobs,which will cause revolts,which will always result in chaos.

So really, Tzeentch is the true incarnation of chaos, that is how he fits in, he is chaos pure and simple.{well, not SIMPLE, but you know what I mean.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> None of the Chaos Gods have any redeeming qualities. The martial honour and pride are not virtues. Arrogance and Pride are not qualities wanted in warriors. That's what leads to murder,bloodshed,and despair is not what Khorne is about.
> 
> Slaanesh doesn't give two shits about love and the passion that he involves himself in is not the kind found in lovers. Sadistic hedonsim with no purpose but the fufillment of sensation and pleasure are his only goals.
> 
> ...


It isn't as simple as that. They represent emotional aspects driven to their extremes. The extremes are evil to be sure, but the same levels of dark cannot be applied to every step of the path that leads there. 

Take Kharn for example. He is a mad butcherer and slaughterer of men. But to begin with he was an honourable warrior who even meditated upon the Eightfold Path. If you don't know what that is, look it up. :wink:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Two questions:

1. Do you think Kharn was meditating on the noble eightfold path associated with Buddhism, or do you think Ben Counter cleverly applied that concept's title to Chaos?

2. When we mention the more noble/less evil aspects of Chaos - e.g., martial honour and pride for Khorne - do you think those are genuine aspects of the deities in question, or do you think that's just a lure/temptation to get people started down the path?

Because if it's the former, then the Chaos deities are not meant to be good or evil, but the dystopian nature of the galaxy - of which they are psychic reflection - has led to them becoming a negative extreme of the concepts they represent. But if it's the latter, then they are just exploiting mainstream, positive values to subvert people into something quite beyond what they wanted to be a part of.

Or, to use Kharn again, when we see him in "Galaxy in Flames", or in "Rebirth", the implication is very much that he's trapped in his course and heading toward a destination desired by Khorne not of his own volition.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't think you can really label the Chaos Gods 'good' or 'evil'. Certainly by our society's morals they're evil, but they don't play by our social rules so labeling them according to our morality isn't very fair. 

I'd make the same argument for the Dark Eldar. Whilst we abhor baby eating and torture, they are perfectly acceptable and even encouraged in DE society. To the DE, it's morally right to torture.


*Back on topic*; Tzeentch is the god of change, hope, ambition, plotting, etc, etc... Tzeentch like all the gods seeks to increase the 'amount' the aforementioned emotions are expressed in the materium. Everything he does is essentially to achieve this single goal.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

You have to have him amongst them to balance things out. He is the foil to Nurgle who is disease, despair and stagnation. The gods used to be pitted against each other much more than they are now (in earlier incarnations of the game). Khorne's opposite was Slaneesh. As for them being good or evil...that doesn't exactly apply. There are excerpts throughout GW and BL material that has them worshipped as benign entities in various cultures. The nature of Chaos is ever changing. Nurgle, for example, is often seen as almost kind and affectionate on one hand, while spreading plagues that ravage mankind. As if he is almost doing it out of love and sharing his gifts. Tzeentcb is the perpetual disruption and destruction of order. The tearing down of structure for the sake of change and then destroying whatever replaces it in turn. This is not only an anathema to the Imperium but also for the good of human society itself. As for him never seeming to do much....that is all part of the plan.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> 2. When we mention the more noble/less evil aspects of Chaos - e.g., martial honour and pride for Khorne - do you think those are genuine aspects of the deities in question, or do you think that's just a lure/temptation to get people started down the path?


Most recent lore seems to suggest the latter:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Khorne:* _'The followers of Khorne are always ferocious warriors, for the Blood God abhors the trickery of magic and cowardly sorcerers. Men turn to Khorne for the power to conquer, to defeat their enemies in battle, to wreak bloody vengeance and to attain unimaginable martial prowess. The most fanatical and dedicated of his followers, those trapped fully within his clawed grasp, know that he desires only wild slaughter. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does.'_
> 
> *Tzeentch:* _'Plotters and schemers find themselves drawn to Tzeentch, especially those who crave magical power to achieve their goals. Politicians and leaders, magisters and cultists, all are inexorably drawn along convuluted paths of fate, using Tzeentch to achieve their dreams and aspirations but ultimately they are led into Tzeentch's eternal schemes. No man could fully comprehend the full nature of the intricately woven, multi-layered plots of Tzeentch, and even to attempt to do so is to court insanity. In fact, Tzeentch does not have a grand plan, an ineffable goal to fulfil. For Tzeentch the mere act of plotting and endlessly entwining the brief fates of mortals is fulfilment enough. There is no end to his scheming for he desires no end. Tzeentch can never achieve an ultimate aim for it would be the end of ambition and hence the end for the lord of destiny.'_
> 
> ...





Phoebus said:


> Because if it's the former, then the Chaos deities are not meant to be good or evil, but the dystopian nature of the galaxy - of which they are psychic reflection - has led to them becoming a negative extreme of the concepts they represent. But if it's the latter, then they are just exploiting mainstream, positive values to subvert people into something quite beyond what they wanted to be a part of.


I think it's a combination of the both. People associate such values with the gods, perhaps in order to justify their own dedication to them. But equally the gods consciously exploit such values in order to grow their own powerbase - something which forms a strong (and usually unbreakable) descent into Chaos dedication:

_"...so the circle is established, with Man's follies feeding the Chaos Gods and the Chaos Gods encouraging Man to further follies."_


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> It isn't as simple as that. They represent emotional aspects driven to their extremes. The extremes are evil to be sure, but the same levels of dark cannot be applied to every step of the path that leads there.
> 
> Take Kharn for example. He is a mad butcherer and slaughterer of men. But to begin with he was an honourable warrior who even meditated upon the Eightfold Path. If you don't know what that is, look it up. :wink:


 

Maybe your looking at this to complicated. These beings were manifested from specific emotions of warp sensitive beings (not just the humans,the eldear were largely responsible for Slaanesh).Because of the narrow concepts they were spawned from, they know only those emotions and seek to perpetuate them and themselves without restraint or intellect. The perfect example is Tzeentch. Who in the Imperium can match wits with him? Answer is no one.He schemes for the sake of scheming. He mutates for the sake of mutations as there is no final form.he manipulates for the sake of maniputlation. Just as his brothers follow their own natures to the end so will he. Khan's past is almost irrelevant. In thrall to the blood god he exists for only 3 things: Burn,Kill,maim.


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## All_Is_Dust (Aug 21, 2011)

Tzeentch influenced ROT to seek knowledge and create this thread. Every answer can be argued and endlessly debated. Trying to answer this question so that everyone understands will drive many posters mad. This is the chaos that feeds Tzeentch and shows why he is the greatest of all Chaos Gods.


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## SolvableSphinx (Mar 1, 2012)

gothik said:


> Nurgle is disease, rot, palgues wrapped up in a bloated figure that likes to be called grandfather!!!! if my beloved grandfathers looked like that i'd be shitting myself


Papa Nurgle loves all life equally. He loves you just as much as he loves the billions of bacteria and viruses that call you 'home'. If an arrangement can be reached, great! If not, well, sacrificing thousands or billions for just one isn't right even if the loss of that one is regretful.

He'll comfort a child, and read that child a story and be that child's favorite uncle. But he won't cure that child's cancer. It wouldn't be fair to the cancer.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

From what I understand, the Chaos Gods are born and fed from mortal emotion/action- regardless of the type. There are more than 4 warp gods... its just that the Big 4 happen to be representative of the 4 main forces in the 40k universe (these being fueled primarily by humanity).

War and murder. Despair and decay. Corruption and self-indulgence. Ambition and deciet. 

While the Big 4 might also represent the "opposite side of the coin" of their perspective portfolios, it stands in the current universe that the overwhelming majority of action/emotion is the "negative" side (in humanity's terms). And as a true dystopia- that negative side only feeds into itself. The only way to stop the minions of khorne is to kill them to a man... etc.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Tzeentch is the intelligence commanding the warp energy resultant of all the ambition, hope and deceit that flows from sentient beings, as well as that energy itself, and presides over change, devious scheming, and magic. His worshippers are generally psykers, or at least intellectual/well-educated, and almost as duplicitous as their god.

He and slaanesh get along well enough, though I imagine slaanesh sees tzeentch as far too concerned with the long-term consequences of his actions.

The emotions and concepts that make up Tzeentch are generally accepted to be the antithesis of the emotions and concepts that make up Nurgle, and so the two probably don't get along too well, but I don't recall ever reading that they've show outward hostility to one another.


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## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Maybe your looking at this to complicated. These beings were manifested from specific emotions of warp sensitive beings (not just the humans,the eldear were largely responsible for Slaanesh).Because of the narrow concepts they were spawned from, they know only those emotions and seek to perpetuate them and themselves without restraint or intellect. The perfect example is Tzeentch. Who in the Imperium can match wits with him? Answer is no one.He schemes for the sake of scheming. He mutates for the sake of mutations as there is no final form.he manipulates for the sake of maniputlation. Just as his brothers follow their own natures to the end so will he. Khan's past is almost irrelevant. In thrall to the blood god he exists for only 3 things: Burn,Kill,maim.


Maybe you're looking at this far too simply. Chaos gods are made of and preside over concepts, ideas, and the beliefs mortals have about them. NOT just simple emotions. Think of them like crazy-big science-fiction egregores.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Chaos is not the same as chaos. The Chaos Gods are not Gods of chaos. They do not seek the destruction of order (well Tzeentch does but not the rest) what they seek is *more*. The Chaos Gods seek only to feed themselves, an act that can hardly be called evil. The problem is that they feed themselves by driving people to indulge in the deepest, most extreme aspects of their driving emotion. They, like many people, are never satisfied with what they have, they need more. They cause destruction not because they actively want to break things but simply because things breaking is a natural cause of their feeding. Cows die so that we can eat but does that mean our goal is the wholesale destruction of cow-kind? Not at all, indeed to further our ability to eat cows we actually take great pains to structure their lives, to co-ordinate our efforts. Thus the simple act of our feeding is well-coordinated to cause mass deaths (and our feeding doesn't even require hate, rage, despair or ambition).

As for how this works consider the following. You are upset because your boss overlooked you for a promotion (again), there's nothing wrong with that (I hope we can all agree that its quite natural) but it feeds Khorne all the same. But it's not enough for Khorne, he needs you to get angrier. So your being upset turns into your being angry, your anger turns to rage and then suddenly when Billy (who got your well deserved promotion) decides to be smug about his awesome new house you find yourself contemplating hitting him. You go home and break something, which just makes you more angry. On your way to work the next day somebody nearly runs you off the road and you get out of your car to yell at him. Now your late for work and Billy threatens to fire you. You shove him, he shoves back and now you're fighting. Congratulations, you've just fallen to Khorne. But where did you start doing something evil?


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