# Apparently Sangiunius was really powerful (spoilers)



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So in betrayer around chapter 8-9 horus summons lorgar to speak with him. At one point lorgar tells horus that the reason he is trying so hard to care for angron, is that in the end only two will stand a chance when fighting with sangiunius and those two are angron and horus. However lorgar goes on to say that angron is worsening and will die soon, leaving only horus to face the angel of which lorgar wants to avoid for horus life sake.

Yes we all know in the end horus kills sang, however it goes to show that from lorgars perspective sangiunius would kill horus in singular combat when unaided by chaos. I just found it interesting, that even lorgar and horus expressed doubt when contemplating angron fighting the angel, as in doubting angrons chances of victory (though this may be due to his worsening state of death).

Also it states the emperor did try to remove the nails from angrom but was unable to do so without killing angron.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Indeed man  



Horus said:


> Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...


Sanguineous was basically the man. Horus very possibly would have lost to him in single combat if he were not aided by the dark gods, and he certainly would have been damaged much more than he was. In addition, if you look at the above quote we see just another example of the "traitors" grudging admiration for Sanguineous.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

In other news water is wet...

Seriously what did you expect? In Horus Rising angel boy is mentioned to be second only to Horus in the eyes of the Emperor and many were surprised he wasn't made Warmaster instead.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> In other news water is wet...
> 
> Seriously what did you expect? In Horus Rising angel boy is mentioned to be second only to Horus in the eyes of the Emperor and many were surprised he wasn't made Warmaster instead.


That doesn't really sound like it's suggesting he was strong, more like he was favored by the emperor.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

He was also blessed with Foresight. Quite handy to see the future in battle. But the Blood Angel 5th Ed codex says Sanguinius might have been a match for Horus, in his prime. Remember he had his legs broken by Ka'Bandha prior to fighting Horus. So Sanguinius was weakened and Horus had become stronger. And had the arena allowed for flight I can see why other Primarchs feared him.


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## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

At least they keep the theme consistent.

From Deliverance Lost:

From Captain Noriz of the Imperial Fists while discussing with Branne who will kill Horus, "No, when the Blood Angels here of this treachery, there'll be no stopping Sanguinius. Lord Dorn calls him the Angel of Death, and I can't imagine Fulgrim, Perturabo, Lorgar or any of the others wanting to step between Horus and the Angel's vengeance. It'll be Sanguinius, mark my words."


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Sanguinius is stronger than Horus.

What if Signus Prime and the Battle at the Gates were just a setup to up the playing field for Sanguinius' final Battle.

What if even then Sanguinius actually mortally wounds Horus? 

What if that too was a setup by Chaos to finally get enough leverage over Horus to completely turn his to Chaos ( Primodial Annhialator ).

What if this was a setup by the Sigilite and this was the Choice he was talking about in the Audio book. And this was done by the Sigilite cause he believed just like him the Emperor doesn't blame Horus for all this unless he is completely taken over?
And thus this was to make sure the Emperor doesn't hold back?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Nashnir said:


> Sanguinius is stronger than Horus.


What made you come to that conclusion?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What made you come to that conclusion?


The rest of the post was so confusing that I sort of switched off when combined with this first sentence.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

...what if Nashnir is an agent of the Alpha Legion sent here to confuse us all with 'what ifs'?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well I don't think any primarch is "greater" then any other primarch, however I do believe some primarchs were superior in direct combat. That being said it seems both the loyalist and traitors perceived Sanguinius as top dog, if not one of the top dogs along with Angron. However through the entire Betrayer book it constantly keeps referencing to how Angron has been degenerating through the years, both mentally and physically.

Particularly when it is referencing Angrons fight with Russ and his legion in the past, that Angron's speech and perspective on life was much more coherent, clear, and logical. Compare that to his speech patterns during the siege of the Utlramarines worlds, coupled with the fact that he would start bleeding from the nose/eyes/mouth while speaking with people goes to show that he truly was not as strong as he was when he was first found.

On another note I found it fascinating how "powerful" Lorgar had become in his use of psyker powers in direct combat. It seems his area of expertise is telekenisi, as he was able to rip storm birds apart in the air, knock titans (by hurling objects at them at super-sonic speeds), as well as crush squads of ultramarines effortlessly. Additionally it seems he was able to use his telekenisis to form Barriers/force fields around himself as he was effortlessly nullifying bolters, and cannon fire that was hitting him, he even blocked a direct Warhound Plasma cannon charge by extending his hand towards the incoming blast.

Lorgar in terms of power, confidence, and assertion of his own self was so different then pre Istvaan that even Horus stated "I stopped trusting you once you started to change, once you assaulted me upon my ship, once you and your astartes boarded fulgrims flag ship and threatened him, etc."

I really have enjoyed how the writers of the Horus heresy have taken the time to balance out all the primarchs so there truly isnt a situation of "Primarch A is superior to primarch B in a fight".

As Kharn put it, some legions excelled in winning battles while others excelled in winning wars. Discipline wins wars, but unchained ferocity wins battles.This was in regards when he compared the discipline of the ultramarines to the ferocity of the world eaters.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> Well I don't think any primarch is "greater" then any other primarch, however I do believe some primarchs were superior in direct combat. That being said it seems both the loyalist and traitors perceived Sanguinius as top dog, if not one of the top dogs along with Angron.


Horus was the greatest Primarch. The lore has always been consistent in that fact. 

Lorgar, in his apparent (though not infallible) wisdom, claimed that only two could stand against Sanguinius "once he fights with nothing left to lose." Those two, of course, being Horus and Angron. Sanguinius, in this case, and in most cases, is usually talked about in terms of potential. When he has nothing left to lose; when all his lost; his vengeance; and his wrath are common phrases used in that regard. When he fought at the Eternity Gate, it was in a very different state-of-mind to that he fought with during the wars of the Great Crusade. I guess my point is that it's not just about "who is the better or more capable fighter?" it's also about mind-set and circumstance. Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate was at his most dangerous, his most volatile. That concealed instability and anger is what the others are referring to when they refer to Sanguinius's wrath being so terrible to behold. 



Lux said:


> However through the entire Betrayer book it constantly keeps referencing to how Angron has been degenerating through the years, both mentally and physically.


Though, does that mental degeneration make him even more volatile and dangerous? Food for thought.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

ntaw said:


> ...what if Nashnir is an agent of the Alpha Legion sent here to confuse us all with 'what ifs'?


Seems likely. To arms, my brother?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus was the greatest Primarch. The lore has always been consistent in that fact.
> 
> Lorgar, in his apparent (though not infallible) wisdom, claimed that only two could stand against Sanguinius "once he fights with nothing left to lose." Those two, of course, being Horus and Angron. Sanguinius, in this case, and in most cases, is usually talked about in terms of potential. When he has nothing left to lose; when all his lost; his vengeance; and his wrath are common phrases used in that regard. When he fought at the Eternity Gate, it was in a very different state-of-mind to that he fought with during the wars of the Great Crusade. I guess my point is that it's not just about "who is the better or more capable fighter?" it's also about mind-set and circumstance. Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate was at his most dangerous, his most volatile. That concealed instability and anger is what the others are referring to when they refer to Sanguinius's wrath being so terrible to behold.


Horus certainly was the most favored, practically raised by the Emperor. Perhaps before turning to Chaos, he was the most martially and mentally balanced of all the Primarchs and well disciplined.

Sanguinius' rage was truly something to behold. He completely terrified the people of Baal the first time he fought with anger. But Sanguinius could keep his rage under control most of the time, though that seems to be to his detriment. His Black Rage would be an awesome weapon if it could be harnessed and controlled with some predictability.

Actually, just recalled something. According to Deus Encarmine, the Spear of Tolesto can control the Black Rage/Red Thirst. As it was a gift of the Emperor to Sanguinius, it was probably designed to help him keep his dark rage in check.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Lorgar may have told Horus that only he and Angron had a chance to come out alive against the Sanguinias in order to plant doubt in Horus about his own prowess (as Horus would figure he would have to face Sang before the Emperor) and make him more open to allowing the dark gods more control over him in exchange for more power.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

I disagree with OP....Every p was a bit same on the power level,and some of them had their skills honed elswere....To misuse that Corax sentence every time "Which primarch was the strongest" thread appears is ludacris....


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The idea of power levels is "ludicrous" in itself; even more so than the idea they were all at the same level. The Warmaster was obviously favoured, and learned more off the Emperor than any other character; while Alpharius learned directly from the Warmaster and became his man, in a way (or Alpharius let Horus believe that). Rogal Dorn would have greater access to the Emperor's records regarding siege conflict than any other Primarch; putting Angron in charge of the defence of Terra, while comical, would have been useless.

Each had their strengths, and without coming across as "The Bank Job"; however, some are clearly ideally suited for particular jobs, while others are better at others. They cannot be correlated, while only the Mary-sue foo of Graham McNeil and his Magnus/Horus/Perturabo/Made up character #2342522352352 is capable of such feats of omnipotence far above what level everyone else sets out.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Vaz said:


> The idea of power levels is "ludicrous" in itself; even more so than the idea they were all at the same level. The Warmaster was obviously favoured, and learned more off the Emperor than any other character; while Alpharius learned directly from the Warmaster and became his man, in a way (or Alpharius let Horus believe that). Rogal Dorn would have greater access to the Emperor's records regarding siege conflict than any other Primarch; putting Angron in charge of the defence of Terra, while comical, would have been useless.
> 
> Each had their strengths, and without coming across as "The Bank Job"; however, some are clearly ideally suited for particular jobs, while others are better at others. They cannot be correlated, while only the Mary-sue foo of matt ward. and his Magnus/Horus/Perturabo/Made up character #2342522352352 is capable of such feats of omnipotence far above what level everyone else sets out.


Sorry that spelling mistake was bugging me. 

To me it makes no sense for all primarchs to be equal. After all does to make sense for all primarchs to be perfect at siege warfare? in the 40K universe a varity of skills are needed.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

I think the point is that they're equal overall, but have specific gifts and talents that exceed the others. Though even that is questionable...


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Some primarchs are good at one thing, while other primarchs are good at the opposite, almost as if they were meant to cancel each other out. Dorn is good at building and fortifying, Perturabo is good at siege warfare for example. JAMOBs post seems the most evident in the books. Each has a specific gift/talent, but they are all, more or less, equal. At least during the pre-heresy period.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Perturabo is good at building. 

Although that's Graham McNeil, so if you have any sort of objective way of looking at his writing, you'll see his view doesn't really count. Look at his portrayal of the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard *durpohshitubersniperlololololol1440noscopeclutchernoh4x*.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Perturabo is good at building.
> 
> Although that's Graham McNeil, so if you have any sort of objective way of looking at his writing, you'll see his view doesn't really count. Look at his portrayal of the Iron Hands and the Raven Guard *durpohshitubersniperlololololol1440noscopeclutchernoh4x*.


You should also look at his portrayal of the ultramarines. 

That more than makes up for his short comings.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Seriously? I despise his Ultramarines series. I don't mind _Angel Exterminatus_, quite enjoyed it in fact, but can easily see why people wouldn't like it. _Thousand Sons_ is the only novel that I've thought was very, very good, up there near the top in fact, _Fulgrim_ is also pretty good, though I do remember it feeling a bit slow at times when I first read it.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Seriously? I despise his Ultramarines series. I don't mind _Angel Exterminatus_, quite enjoyed it in fact, but can easily see why people wouldn't like it. _Thousand Sons_ is the only novel that I've thought was very, very good, up there near the top in fact, _Fulgrim_ is also pretty good, though I do remember it feeling a bit slow at times when I first read it.


Aw, did you going into your room decorated like gulliman's chamber wearing your ultramarine footie jammies with a nice glass of milk and cookies in a matching ultramarine set expecting the ultramarine's to destroy chaos resurrect gulliman and then make him emperor?

His portrayal of the ultramarines shows that their method of warfare is flaws. Three characters in his series learn that following the codex isn't always the best option.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> You should also look at his portrayal of the ultramarines.
> 
> That more than makes up for his short comings.


hahhahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Aw, did you going into your room decorated like gulliman's chamber wearing your ultramarine footie jammies with a nice glass of milk and cookies in a matching ultramarine set expecting the ultramarine's to destroy chaos resurrect gulliman and then make him emperor?
> 
> His portrayal of the ultramarines shows that their method of warfare is flaws. Three characters in his series learn that following the codex isn't always the best option.


I'm sorry? Might want to think about rewording that first paragraph of your post, not only because of the tone, but more so because you've clearly not been around here much or paid any attention if you think I'm an Ultramarines fanboy, the exact opposite in fact.

I despise his Ultramarines series because it's shit, I don't care about how they are portrayed in it. I don't like the story, the characters, the writing or any of it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> His portrayal of the ultramarines shows that their method of warfare is flaws. Three characters in his series learn that following the codex isn't always the best option.


Which itself is strange, considering the Ultramarines have dogmatically (yet successfully) adhered to the Codex for ten millennia. That's the whole point and genius of the Codex. Having Ultramarine characters doubt its genius as good as makes them traitors.

Though having said that, I'm not in the best position to comment: I've never read the Ultramarines series, and never will. I couldn't think of a worst way to waste my time.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I couldn't think of a worst way to waste my time.


Reading _Fear to Tread_ again?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Even worse; The Outcast Dead.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Reading _Fear to Tread_ again?


I really enjoyed fear to tread, i thought it was a very good read.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Even worse; The Outcast Dead.


I dunno, I really, *really* hate _Fear to Tread_. Though _The Outcast Dead_ isn't all that far behind. I suppose I don't hate it that much as it wasn't such a monumentally key event like Signus was.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This thread was enlightening. I always had Sanguinius pegged as a pussy. :crazy:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Which itself is strange, considering the Ultramarines have dogmatically (yet successfully) adhered to the Codex for ten millennia. That's the whole point and genius of the Codex. Having Ultramarine characters doubt its genius as good as makes them traitors.
> 
> Though having said that, I'm not in the best position to comment: I've never read the Ultramarines series, and never will. I couldn't think of a worst way to waste my time.


To me that is matt wards fault. According to all info I understand the codex dictates things like how to perform an ambush, an attack and etc. That's how the ultramarine omnibus shows it. 

However the tau are known to create psych profiles on their enemies. They also are fully capable of adapting. How is it that they haven't noticed codex chapters using the same damn tactics at every ambush.

It pisses me off to no end.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> To me that is matt wards fault. According to all info I understand the codex dictates things like how to perform an ambush, an attack and etc. That's how the ultramarine omnibus shows it.
> 
> However the tau are known to create psych profiles on their enemies. They also are fully capable of adapting. How is it that they haven't noticed codex chapters using the same damn tactics at every ambush.
> 
> It pisses me off to no end.


I would hardly say it's because of Ward. The Ultramarines strict adherence to the Codex has always been a trait of theirs. I think people don't seem to grasp how vast the Codex is either, It's as if everyone assumes it is a small and easily beatable tactics book, also that any alien race could easily get their hands on it. The Codex is enormous, with a staggering amount of various tactics, strategies, formations etc. It's not a simple as 'if enemy x does y, then do z' more like 'if enemy a234t does gh8301hy, then do 8910hjk30, 405tuuot3 or......'. Yes extreme example, but the point is, it's just not so clear cut as people seem to assume it is. There's a reason why the Ultramarines are so lauded and are one of the most renowned chapter(something I very grudgingly admit).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> I would hardly say it's because of Ward. The Ultramarines strict adherence to the Codex has always been a trait of theirs. I think people don't seem to grasp how vast the Codex is either, It's as if everyone assumes it is a small and easily beatable tactics book, also that any alien race could easily get their hands on it. The Codex is enormous, with a staggering amount of various tactics, strategies, formations etc. It's not a simple as 'if enemy x does y, then do z' more like 'if enemy a234t does gh8301hy, then do 8910hjk30, 405tuuot3 or......'. Yes extreme example, but the point is, it's just not so clear cut as people seem to assume it is. There's a reason why the Ultramarines are so lauded and are one of the most renowned chapter(something I very grudgingly admit).


I totally agree that one being won't be able to understand it. But we're talking about the resources of an empire especially one with the power of the tau.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Tau Empire are indeed powerful and growing in power. But the codex is imo, still to vast and adaptable to be understood and combated accordingly. For instance, the Tau could know that if the Ultramarines are doing 'x' attack, then they can counter it with 'y', but the Ultramarines could then counter this again with a whole host of other options, too many for the Tau or any enemy to have prepared for. They are by no means unbeatable and the Codex isn't infallible by any means. But if the Codex could be understood and taken advantage of in such a way, I'm sure the Eldar, never mind the Tau would have figured it out by now.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

An example of the size of the Codex- Space Marines have as near to an eidetic memory as possible but it still requires each Marine memorising as much as they can of it for a Company to retain the entire Codex Astartes.

If it takes 100 guys with photographic memories to remember something then you know it's probably going to be a dauntingly large body of text.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Baron Spikey said:


> An example of the size of the Codex- Space Marines have as near to an eidetic memory as possible but it still requires each Marine memorising as much as they can of it for a Company to retain the entire Codex Astartes.
> 
> If it takes 100 guys with photographic memories to remember something then you know it's probably going to be a dauntingly large body of text.


Honestly I'm starting to get confused, If 100 space marines can memorize the entire codex astartes. Then why can't an entire race, who fought against the space marines allot and seems to have the technology to do allot find a way to study the codex.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How exactly are they going to get hold of the codex to study it? Marines don't just go carrying it around. And there's just no way they could feasiably test every single variable against the Marines and have it all documented. They've got glimpses of it at best, and even then there's nothing that says they even copied it down correctly, could quite easily of misunderstood what action the Marines took. To me it would be like hearing a select number of quotes from a very large novel, some of the quotes not quoted verbatim, and then trying to put them all on paper to copy the novel.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> This thread was enlightening. I always had Sanguinius pegged as a pussy. :crazy:


Why would you think that? Is it that he is often portrayed in a elegant fashion when it comes to his demeanor?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> Why would you think that? Is it that he is often portrayed in a elegant fashion when it comes to his demeanor?


I think your sarcasm detector is a little faulty.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> How exactly are they going to get hold of the codex to study it? Marines don't just go carrying it around. And there's just no way they could feasiably test every single variable against the Marines and have it all documented. They've got glimpses of it at best, and even then there's nothing that says they even copied it down correctly, could quite easily of misunderstood what action the Marines took. To me it would be like hearing a select number of quotes from a very large novel, some of the quotes not quoted verbatim, and then trying to put them all on paper to copy the novel.


They've got to carry the Codex around with them, or else how else would they know they meet FoC requirements and have the requisite point values?


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lux loves him some Primarch power-levels.

Haven't read _Betrayer_, but Manguinius wank is always a delight.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Not that he is my favorite primarch, but Magnus could have killed Sang.... or any other primarch for that matter. Yes I know he went down to the Wolf King, but I am betting the reason was because the null maidens were around dampening his power. The guy blasted a titan out of existance with one shot PRE corruption.

Horus even remarked in "Galaxy in Flames" that he thought of Magnus as being his second biggest threat... only slightly less dangerous than the Emp. himself.

Oh, and if no one mentioned it yet. Don't forget the reason Sang wasn't much of a fight for Horus is because he had just banished the Grandaddy of all Bloodthirsters and was injured for it. It would have been an interesting fight if Dorn and Sang had found Horus at the same time.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Both Magnus _and_ Russ are seen as two of the biggest threats to Horus actually, as per _Prospero Burns_, hence why the gods put so much time, effort and manipulation into making sure they took each other out of the game. And even then Magnus almost totally fucked it up for them by not committing till the last second, leaving a lot more of the VI Legion standing than they wanted.

I don't think it was anything to do with the Sisters of Silence when Russ took down Magnus. As we saw when Auramagma tried to attack him, Russ himself, his armour, runes or a combination of all three evidently gave him a great deal of warding against psychic powers.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Good point, he did have that kind of effect on the 1000 sons.

You got me to thinking with your post though (something off topic). I wonder how well Angron would do against the Emperor. I think he would be esp. suited to kill the Emperor. I say that because of the special ability Khorne gave Kharn - he is immune to psychic powers. If Angron's right hand man has that ability how much more would Khorne bless Angron?

W/o his psychic ability the Emperor would have to fight on Angron's terms.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Angron is handicapped the moment he leaves the safety of the Eye and the warp, his power draining every moment he spend in the materium. Grey Knight Brother-Captain Aurellian killed Angron on Armageddon, with his force weapon, chanelling both his own powers and the remaining Knights still alive. So Angron is evidently susceptible to psychic powers, at least outside of the Warp. But even then within the Warp, I still think the Emperor would be able to harm him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Good point, he did have that kind of effect on the 1000 sons.
> 
> You got me to thinking with your post though (something off topic). I wonder how well Angron would do against the Emperor. I think he would be esp. suited to kill the Emperor. I say that because of the special ability Khorne gave Kharn - he is immune to psychic powers. If Angron's right hand man has that ability how much more would Khorne bless Angron?
> 
> W/o his psychic ability the Emperor would have to fight on Angron's terms.


Khorne had just as much reason to protect Horus as he would have Angron...


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Khorne had just as much reason to protect Horus as he would have Angron...


Very good point if you look at it from the perspective that Horus unified the Chaos powers behind him and got the best of all their boons. But the chaos gods are selfish. Khorne owns Angron and Kharn. He only had a 25% share in Horus.

Khorne may have found a common enemy in the Emperor with the other 3 Chaos gods, but would he give his best boons to a 'tool' he did not have full control over?

I don't think so. And I think the other 3 gods viewed it the same way.

It makes you think. Was Horus confused at the last stages of the Hersey? Chaos had won, the Emp was (mostly) dead. At that point wouldn't all 4 gods try and take total control of Horus? That confusion in Horus's mind probably gave the Emperor his chance to do what he did.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> This thread was enlightening. I always had Sanguinius pegged as a pussy. :crazy:


Dude, me too....


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I understand the need of the Ultramarines and their codex giving head to a new take on war away from Horus.

But I just think thats too hard to do and every time I hear an author trying to explain it, it kind of gets on my nerves. With the stage of technology that the 40k world has, there is only so much that tactic will do. Thats why I admire Horus' style of fighting during the Great Crusade. The way he coordinated attacks directly reflected his use of technology with a combination of skills. This codex thing is kind of a mockery. 1000 marines with a book... never bought into that. Never even really looking at the flaws of it. 

One of the fundamental reasons I think its flawed is based off how the Ultramarines actually win their battles. They win them by being nitty gritty. They fight just as good as bezerkers. The Battle of Calth and the Ultramarines series, you see the fights not favoring the Ultramarines.... but in the end... they fight just as hard as anyone. Even though being outmatched, and not known for their close combat skills. It just is. In the heat of the fight, there are no skills referred to, just the Ultramarine getting lucky and overcoming adversity. But that is with all battles.

I think the authors do a good job of showing chaos and the gritty parts that change the name of the game. But when they actually come to those parts... the codex is unexplainable and unbelievable to even try to put into the gritty battles. The Ultramarines just overcome... I think thats bull. I would rather the fluff explain how much more equipped and supported their astartes are than that codex crap. Because as far as the codex goes... all we can do is just buy into it. And thats hard to do when your not an Ultramarines fan.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Very good point if you look at it from the perspective that Horus unified the Chaos powers behind him and got the best of all their boons. But the chaos gods are selfish. Khorne owns Angron and Kharn. He only had a 25% share in Horus.
> 
> Khorne may have found a common enemy in the Emperor with the other 3 Chaos gods, but would he give his best boons to a 'tool' he did not have full control over?
> 
> ...


He may not have had complete control over Horus, but then, neither did the others. If Khorne granting psychic protection (as if he is the only god capable?) to Horus was the difference between the Emperor dying and not dying, I can't see him withholding it. Though of course, Khorne is a god with the face of a snarling dog, there can't be too much logic to spare.

Anyway, all of this is working under the assumption that Khorne has the ability to utterly prevent psychic attacks on his minions. Which I highly doubt is the case. And personally, I don't like how we are categorising this. The culmination of Horus's power was not simply several individual gifts given by each of the gods, thats not how Chaos works.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> Not that he is my favorite primarch, but Magnus could have killed Sang.... or any other primarch for that matter. Yes I know he went down to the Wolf King, but *I am betting the reason was because the null maidens were around dampening his power*. The guy blasted a titan out of existance with one shot PRE corruption


I would have loved that to have been the case but apparently not only is Russ super cunning, super disciplined, super good at close combat, super tactical, super ferocious, super good at controlling his ferocity, super good at pretending to be a barbarian...on top of all that, he's also an anti-psyker who reflects psychic attacks back at the source! Heck, he hurts psykers just by yelling! I really hope BL explores some of his other hidden strengths. I'm really excited!


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I understand the need of the Ultramarines and their codex giving head to a new take on war away from Horus.
> 
> But I just think thats too hard to do and every time I hear an author trying to explain it, it kind of gets on my nerves. With the stage of technology that the 40k world has, there is only so much that tactic will do. Thats why I admire Horus' style of fighting during the Great Crusade. The way he coordinated attacks directly reflected his use of technology with a combination of skills. This codex thing is kind of a mockery. 1000 marines with a book... never bought into that. Never even really looking at the flaws of it.
> 
> One of the fundamental reasons I think its flawed is based off how the Ultramarines actually win their battles. They win them by being nitty gritty. They fight just as good as bezerkers. The Battle of Calth and the Ultramarines series, you see the fights not favoring the Ultramarines.... but in the end... they fight just as hard as anyone. Even though being outmatched, and not known for their close combat skills. It just is. In the heat of the fight, there are no skills referred to, just the Ultramarine getting lucky and overcoming adversity. But that is with all battles.


On and off topic : The codex is merely a guide (not a big ultramarine fan). To think in our time soldiers still reference Sun Tzu, and his principles of warfare still apply. He didn't shoot a rifle but he has change the way we react to things. It's a manual. Even Guilliman ( or however you spell it) says sometimes the codex won't cut it. 

The thing is I don't even know why Khorne would care. He doesn't care from whence the blood flows, as long as it flows.

And the part where Sang is second first or whatever strongest. They meant against what was left of the loyalist primarchs. I don't remember who said it but it comes down to seeing every primarch has a strength. As a unified force they would fuck shit up. Unaugmented (no demons or anything) they all would put up a pretty good fight against one another.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Emperors Mercy said:


> On and off topic : The codex is merely a guide (not a big ultramarine fan). To think in our time soldiers still reference Sun Tzu, and his principles of warfare still apply. He didn't shoot a rifle but he has change the way we react to things. It's a manual. Even Guilliman ( or however you spell it) says sometimes the codex won't cut it.
> 
> The thing is I don't even know why Khorne would care. He doesn't care from whence the blood flows, as long as it flows.
> 
> And the part where Sang is second first or whatever strongest. They meant against what was left of the loyalist primarchs. I don't remember who said it but it comes down to seeing every primarch has a strength. As a unified force they would fuck shit up. Unaugmented (no demons or anything) they all would put up a pretty good fight against one another.


We know what Guilliman intended for the Codex. He wanted it to be a guide, not the end all be all way of fighting. Not the ultimate rule book that you had to follow. But somewhere along the line, after he was interred into stasis, the Ultramarines moved onto the way of thinking that they HAD to follow the codex to the letter, and if you did not do so, you were censured. Look at Ventris. He adorned the colors of the death watch and took the fight to the tyranid hive ship and won them the battle, almost dying in the process, and one of his sergeants reports him and gets him sent on a death quest because he didn't follow the codex even a little bit. Shows you how narrow minded they are when it involves the codex.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Firstly yes Sang was bad ass, there is no way we will ever know which Primarch was more powerful then another because of the contradictory information from the BL books.

I have always assumed that each primarch has a part of what makes a great warrior (the emperor). Defence, attack, patience, anger, stealth.... the opposite..... then there is an opposite for each chapter loyal and traitor.




Emperors Mercy said:


> To think in our time soldiers still reference Sun Tzu, and his principles of warfare still apply.


This was going to be my point, it doesn't have to say that xxx man stands at point B and moves to point C. More something like you need to keep your gear clean at all times. It must be flexible and subject to interpretation to combat threats like the Tau and there incessant analysing and pirating (of information). 
I always thought it was a collection of the way the SMs have always fought and put together to hand out to the second founding chapters which were being led by marines who were not necessarily on an equal footing skill wise.

Lastly SMs have information downloaded into them like in the Matrix movies, think its called psycho conditioning, information is also transferred in there DNA. Therefore they don't need to know or remember the whole Codex just access the most relevant parts.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> We know what Guilliman intended for the Codex. He wanted it to be a guide, not the end all be all way of fighting. Not the ultimate rule book that you had to follow. But somewhere along the line, after he was interred into stasis, the Ultramarines moved onto the way of thinking that they HAD to follow the codex to the letter, and if you did not do so, you were censured. Look at Ventris. He adorned the colors of the death watch and took the fight to the tyranid hive ship and won them the battle, almost dying in the process, and one of his sergeants reports him and gets him sent on a death quest because he didn't follow the codex even a little bit. Shows you how narrow minded they are when it involves the codex.


No, I understand that they do follow it to the letter. The catch with Ventris is he abandoned his command. I'm sorry but as a leader you need to have oversight. I agree their zealotry to the codex is stupid and crazy but in this case, I have to say he deserved to get what he got. (I have read the books) If or when you boss decides to go off and do his own thing, he loses oversight. Uriel bailed on his soldiers who were depending on his leadership. The shitty thing about being a leader is that you need to take a step back and trust those underneath you. But in the end he lost tactical oversight. He placed himself out of a control center. He has plenty of capable sergeants and he even has a company champion to take his spot on missions like this. 

You could say by putting himself there, he placed himself at greater risk and took the fight the enemy, but what if that mission failed. Now you have a company with no captain to see what the next plan of action is. Look at chapters due. Sicarus (I know I butchered it) could have gone in and did the sneaking around but he knew he would be better suited fighting the battle until it was time for the alpha strike. 

But the rest of the time where they punish anyone who breaks codex, yea they are dumb for being so stuck to the codex. But that's why I don't like them. They do remind me of the American Civil War. Technology was way to advanced to stand it lines and shoot at each other. But lets do it anyway. Thanks guys for the good discussion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Emperors Mercy said:


> I agree their zealotry to the codex is stupid and crazy.


I can see the reasoning behind that opinion, but you have to realise just how successful adherence to the Codex has been. For ten millennia the Imperium has endured and the Space Marines have been incredibly successful as Chapters rather than Legions, and on the battlefield. There is probably a case to suggest zealous adherence to the Codex has allowed the Imperium to endure as long as it has. Remember, the Codex was created by the incomprehensible intellect of one of the greatest military minds in the history of the galaxy (let alone the Imperium). It is balanced enough to literally include strategic solutions to almost every military situation that a military unit can find itself in. Normally, the free-thinking improvisation of a battlefield commander is irreplaceable. But the Codex has no real-world parallel and cannot be thought of as simply a big book with lots of tactical solutions, it literally contains solutions (beyond the intellectual capability of ordinary humans or Space Marines) to almost every problem. It should be thought of as fantastically beneficial rather than a hindrance to Imperial forces.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can see the reasoning behind that opinion, but you have to realise just how successful adherence to the Codex has been.


Was the Codex written before or after the events of Calth? 

KnF gave me the impression it the majority was written before but incorporated some lessons from the Heresy.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can see the reasoning behind that opinion, but you have to realise just how successful adherence to the Codex has been. For ten millennia the Imperium has endured and the Space Marines have been incredibly successful as Chapters rather than Legions, and on the battlefield. There is probably a case to suggest zealous adherence to the Codex has allowed the Imperium to endure as long as it has. Remember, the Codex was created by the incomprehensible intellect of one of the greatest military minds in the history of the galaxy (let alone the Imperium). It is balanced enough to literally include strategic solutions to almost every military situation that a military unit can find itself in. Normally, the free-thinking improvisation of a battlefield commander is irreplaceable. But the Codex has no real-world parallel and cannot be thought of as simply a big book with lots of tactical solutions, it literally contains solutions (beyond the intellectual capability of ordinary humans or Space Marines) to almost every problem. It should be thought of as fantastically beneficial rather than a hindrance to Imperial forces.


Sorry I tried to trim it down but my phone won't let me. Anywho. The best part of your quote is that a free thinking commander is irreplaceable. The only problem following the codex to the letter is that it makes you predictable. I understand that it has assisted the imperium but that is also due to some non codex chapters. There are plenty of stories where the codex helped destroy an entire chapter. Its a great guideline but without a great commander to use it properly. Notice I did take the chapters side with the decision to punish Uriel.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Ultramarines deviate from the codex from time to time. They don't like to but they understand the need.

Their counter-attack on the Alpha Legion comes to mind. It totally caught them off guard.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Although this is when Guilliman was still in charge, Guilliman who as has been said, intended for the codex to be more of a guideline. For all that, the Ultramarine still got soundly beaten by the Alpha Legion, even with that counter attack.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Not saying they won. The Alpha Legion returned the surprise by acting as if nothing happened when 'Alpharius' was supposedly cut down.

I'm pretty sure I've stumbled upon random battles of Ultramarines in 40k where they've deviated from their holy codex.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Was the Codex written before or after the events of Calth?
> 
> KnF gave me the impression it the majority was written before but incorporated some lessons from the Heresy.


I'm not entirely sure. But the Alpha Legion's IA article states that Guilliman was in the process of documenting the Codex when Alpharius first met him. So the impression you got from _KnF_ might be accurate.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Then again the codex is not just tactics but the future organization of a chapter.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Emperors Mercy said:


> Then again the codex is not just tactics but the future organization of a chapter.


Yep, it describes the whole process of war... like Sun Tzu 'The Art of War' it's got to be vague to be applicable for the past 10,000 years, I swear I've said this already


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

'Rules of Engagement' seems to imply that the Codex Astartes was started after Calth.


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