# Hellgun Marines



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

So I just finished reading Joe Haldeman's The Forever War This book is so grimdark it makes the Imperium of Man look like the land of Oz.

Anyway, in the book the human soldiers primary weapon is a lasgun built into their power armor. It got me thinking. Is there a reason that space marines can not field a laser weapon stronger than a lasgun but more versatile than a lascannon? It seems like building laser weapons directly into power armor would not be that hard and with all the power packed into power armor, said laser could be made to pack a punch.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> So I just finished reading Joe Haldeman's The Forever War This book is so grimdark it makes the Imperium of Man look like the land of Oz.
> 
> Anyway, in the book the human soldiers primary weapon is a lasgun built into their power armor. It got me thinking. Is there a reason that space marines can not field a laser weapon stronger than a lasgun but more versatile than a lascannon? It seems like building laser weapons directly into power armor would not be that hard and with all the power packed into power armor, said laser could be made to pack a punch.


Then youd have enemies disarming marines by trying to damage the vulnerable power backpacks.


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Then youd have enemies disarming marines by trying to damage the vulnerable power backpacks.


To be fair, that's a pretty good idea even with bolter-wielding marines.


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## Noise Marine (Dec 18, 2012)

I think we all know how the Imperium is with new ideas.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Plus marines are pretty much seeing the bolter as a divine implement of destruction in 40k, doubt you could get an astartes to give up such a symbol of tradition that its even been taken up by the SoBs.

Only briefly during the Heresy, there was a real chance for the standard Marine armanent to become the Volkites. But it never happened due to lack of a steady supply, falling back on the easier to produce boltgun.

edit: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Volkite


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Noise Marine said:


> I think we all know how the Imperium is with new ideas.



I hardly consider using a hellgun a "new idea". Besides Space Marines have been known to use meltas and plasma pistols instead of bolters. Why not a hellgun with its virtually unlimited ammunition?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Because 40k is often silly and illogical that's why. Fact is traitor marines, and crusading loyalists would use what ever they thought worked best, and was available. However ultramarines and the like follow the codex arastates which sets out ridiculous rules like what are the acceptable armaments for the emperors angels of death. Honestly there is no fluff or logical reason why say CSM wouldn't just pick up tau pulse rifles and use them till they ran out of ammo, after all most of their bolters, and munitions are salvaged and I doubt they have a limitless supply of em. 

It helps numb the sense of stupidity if you focus on the fact that 40k is both a fictional setting and a board game, as such they have to keep both relatively close together or else fans get annoyed. Sure writers take liberties, but SM's will always be primarily equipped with power armor, bolter, grenades. Its part of what makes them 40k space marines and not say star craft space marines.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I'd reckon their hands would be too big for a Tau Pulse Rifle.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> I hardly consider using a hellgun a "new idea". Besides Space Marines have been known to use meltas and plasma pistols instead of bolters. Why not a hellgun with its virtually unlimited ammunition?


because the gun is in fact a lot worse when it comes to the desired effects.


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## Blackwire (Sep 9, 2012)

Cowbellicus said:


> Brother Lucian said:
> 
> 
> > Then youd have enemies disarming marines by trying to damage the vulnerable power backpacks.
> ...


Don't you mean the Devastators? Standard marines don't have their bolters hooked up to their backpacks. That's for life-support, and even so, Space Marines can survive many environs that would kill a human in an instant even without their backpacks and armour. Nineteen implants and hypnotherapy will damn-well make you a demigod. :grin:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Blackwire said:


> Don't you mean the Devastators? Standard marines don't have their bolters hooked up to their backpacks. That's for life-support, and even so, Space Marines can survive many environs that would kill a human in an instant even without their backpacks and armour. Nineteen implants and hypnotherapy will damn-well make you a demigod. :grin:


The comment about attacking back packs was in regards to a suggestion that a lasgun armed marine could have the laser powered by the SM's backpack.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

some space marine commanders already use lasers fitted into their armour so where digital weapons come from. why should the space marines change an weapon which worked for them in the great crusade the horus heresy and ever since and was a weapon which the emperor probably would have used?


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## Decho (Dec 2, 2012)

In the fluff the bolter has always seemed to be a much, much more potent weapon than is really reflected in the game. As such, I don't really see why many marines would really want to change it. Even neglecting the way it's seen as a divine instrument of destruction it is at it's heart a fully automatic weapon that fires explosive shells, which are going to do a colossal amount of damage, especially if they detonate inside the target as they are intended to.

A laser on the other hand will make a burn, possibly an incision (potentially a wide one), which isn't going to have quite so much trauma assosciated with it. Directed plasma weapons would do more damage, but 40k tech doesn't really allow for widespread usage of those, so bolters still look pretty damn good to me.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Decho said:


> In the fluff the bolter has always seemed to be a much, much more potent weapon than is really reflected in the game. As such, I don't really see why many marines would really want to change it. Even neglecting the way it's seen as a divine instrument of destruction it is at it's heart a fully automatic weapon that fires explosive shells, which are going to do a colossal amount of damage, especially if they detonate inside the target as they are intended to.
> 
> A laser on the other hand will make a burn, possibly an incision (potentially a wide one), which isn't going to have quite so much trauma assosciated with it. Directed plasma weapons would do more damage, but 40k tech doesn't really allow for widespread usage of those, so bolters still look pretty damn good to me.



This is the key to it. A Bolter blows things to bits, Laser makes a cauterised incision.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Lasers tend to bounce off power armour and only travel through one target at a time too, unlike Bolters

ofc that is unless you're reading a IG book, then a guardsman can take out a 10,000 year old CSM lol


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Keep in mind that Space Marines are shock troops. An explosive bolter hit has a massive morale effect on many soldiers.

Also a bolter has some more utility with its many different kinds of ammo. Though that hardly seems standard issue.

Some conjecture on my part:

Maybe the suit doesn't have enough power for a high-powered laser weapon AND its standard operation? This would necessitate a larger battery pack--something that would slow them down considerably. They could be used in devastator squads, but why use a hellgun when you could utilize more powerful weaponry, anyway?

Having the extra, non-heavy weapon using members of the devastator squad wouldn't work either. They're there for utility and support of the heavy weapon users. It would cripple them if they, too, we were weighed down.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Aren't hell guns relatively small for the use of spacemarines? I feel like they would break them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Aren't hell guns relatively small for the use of spacemarines? I feel like they would break them.


They could always scale them up, make them out of tougher materials, ect. That wouldn't be an issue.

Just like how we have normal bolt pistols and guns for humans and have Space Marine level bolt pistols and guns for marines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

They shoot differently though. And almost wouldn't be the same gun. Like the bolter and heavy bolter for example. It would be quite a gun to accomadate an astartes.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

How does a human-sized bolter and Astartes bolter differ? Outside of size (and the consequences of it like extra recoil and weight).

Ditto with bolt-pistols. In terms of roles, a human and Astartes bolt pistol are the same. A handy backup for a heavier weapon, a weapon to use in the off-hand when in melee, or a backup weapon in case everything else has been exhausted.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't think there is a different size bolter for humans, the SoB models seem to very much have their hands full.

Being a "gyrojet" there is no recoil tho'


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think bolters are the same size for both. At least I would think, or else, it would shoot differently. The only thing I could see being different is the grip and trigger space.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Being a "gyrojet" there is no recoil tho'


There's supposed to be less.

In _The Purging of Kadillus_ a marine lends his bolt pistol to a guardsman. The guardsman fires the weapon and describes the kick as similar to firing a normal rifle. That's before the main kicker charge goes off after it leaves the barrel, too.



ckcrawford said:


> I think bolters are the same size for both. At least I would think, or else, it would shoot differently. The only thing I could see being different is the grip and trigger space.


The diameter of the bolt is the same. I think there has to be something else different. Maybe the bolt itself is longer, is denser, or has a more powerful propellent charge?

The Deathwatch rulebook describes non-Astartes bolt weapons as "smaller, inferior adaptations".

In addition, non-Astartes using Astartes scale weapons suffer large penalties due to "improper scale, weight, and/or recoil". This includes Astartes bolt pistols and Astartes bolt guns.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

hailene said:


> There's supposed to be less.
> 
> In _The Purging of Kadillus_ a marine lends his bolt pistol to a guardsman. The guardsman fires the weapon and describes the kick as similar to firing a normal rifle. That's before the main kicker charge goes off after it leaves the barrel, too.


Maybe but that is wrong as far as the physics of how the weapon actually works tho'.

It is basically an advanced for of bazooka or SRAAW or ATGW none of which have any recoil at all.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> It is basically an advanced for of bazooka or SRAAW or ATGW none of which have any recoil at all.


My understanding of military weapons is limited but...

I think it's different than a bazooka or something like that. Those are tubes that vent the gases from the rear. There's very little recoil. Bolters are not. The gas has to go somewhere.

The first explosive charge for a gyrojet weapon is a lot less than a similar standard weapon, though. It would make sense that a bolter would have SOME recoil.

A auto-gun level recoil on a bolt pistol probably is hardly noticeable for a Space Marine.

There's other sources where Space Marines comment on the buck or recoil of their bolt weapons. We know they have a noticeable level of recoil. Probably not enough to interfere with mots of their shooting.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

At most you'd be talking the sort of recoil you get off a .22 calibre round if we use the current physics of a gyrojet round. 

Other than that all you can really say is "who knows?" it is after all science fiction so anything can happen.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

We don't know how potent the initial charge is for an Astartes (or even non-Astartes) weapon is.

Here's my belief why a moderately strong (by our human standards) recoil makes sense:

A gyrojet is balancing initial velocity with recoil. You want some speed on the projectile as it leaves the barrel because 1. You actually want it to leave the barrel 2. It's easier to aim if the speed of the bullet remains more similar through its flight path (for leading targets) and 3. It's harder to dodge at close range.

You don't want TOO much speed because then it creates too much recoil and can mess up your follow up shots.

Now a regular rifle level amount of recoil is probably not noticeable in super-humanly strong, power armored geared marine. This gives it the best of both worlds: a reasonable initial speed and recoil that doesn't affect their aim. 

So a marine weapon having, to us humans, a reasonable amount of kick is within reason. At least to me.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

May I point out that as an Englishman and this game being made by fellow Englishmen I would try not to get too caught up in the whole 'how guns actually work' lmfao 

If you guys do wish to pursue this line of thinking may I point out that Astrates and non-Astrates both have another size of bolt pistol that is in a holster 

Also now I've had a think about this I'm sure it's because the Bolter is a cooler and more devastating weapon then the Lasgun and its variants. Think shock and awe and the noise the bolters and its ammo going off compared to the noise of lasguns.


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