# Pre-Heresy Imperium vs Tyranids



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

For the sake of argument Lorgar was never turned, Magnus was being a cooperative lad, and no plots of heresy are in motion yet. 

Would the Space Marine Legions simply trample over the Tyranids with the leadership of their Primarchs?

What would happen if the Emperor came in contact with the Hive Mind? Would he be able to overrule the Hive Mind and actually take control of the Tyranids himself? 

How big of a thread would current Hive Fleet Leviathan pose to the Imperium at the strength it had at that time period?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The 30k Imperium would crush the Tyranids, no question. The current Imperium has managed to hold it's own and has actually emerged victorious in every decisive battle they've had with the Hive Fleets. 

If the stagnant Imperium of 40k can do that then 30k Imperium certainly can. There are 20 military geniuses to tackle the Tyranids. The Space Marines are at the height of their power and the Emperor still walks among his people. They have a level of unity and centralization unknown in the current Imperium. The Tyranids are toast.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Rems said:


> The 30k Imperium would crush the Tyranids, no question. The current Imperium has managed to hold it's own and has actually emerged victorious in every decisive battle they've had with the Hive Fleets.
> 
> If the stagnant Imperium of 40k can do that then 30k Imperium certainly can. There are 20 military geniuses to tackle the Tyranids. The Space Marines are at the height of their power and the Emperor still walks among his people. They have a level of unity and centralization unknown in the current Imperium. The Tyranids are toast.


Agreed. The Nids wouldn't stand a chance at the level they appear to be now. It only took 100 Ultramarine Veterans to hold a orbital station against Behemoth (so lets say 50 of any other Chapter's Vets or just a normal battle company :wink and the rest of the chapter managed to beat them back from Smurf Central. If thats what 1000 marines (and unimaginative, non specialised ones at that) could do, imagine what 200,000 + marines each with their own specialities and tactics would do to the Nids. It'd be like using the fly spray equivalent of ebola on an ant colony.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

At the very least the Legions only have self-imposed capacity restrictions, none of the issues with the Codex Astares regarding Chapter size. Even if the 30K Legions stared having a hard time, they just implement a Dark Angels-style recruitment regime and within 3 years you have 2-3 times the total number of Astares able to prosecute the war, without all the distraction of conquering the known galaxy.

If you're talking about a healthy Emperor jacked into the Golden Throne, undistracted by traitorous sons and maintaining the Terran Webway against a Chaos incursion, then I think he would be a match for a Hive Mind. I do question his ability to own a Hive Mind, but at the least I think he could break it's coherence, which effectively decapitates a Hive anyway. As it is now, I remember hearing some healthy debate on this site about his 40K ability to even partially address the Nids should they attack the Terran system.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm not sure. As an immediate or short-run threat, I agree that the Tyranids would get pummeled by the Space Marine legions. However, the major Hive Fleets encountered so far in the present day - Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan - are just the vanguard of a larger Tyranid force. There are also worlds untouched by the Great Crusade, such as those of the Koronus Expanse presented in _Rogue Trader_, that the Tyranids could feed upon if located, and you can count on the Orks to be as numerous as ever - at best, that could lead to a repeat of the Octarius War, and at worse, that could supply them with loads and loads of biomass.

As well, the Tyranids have already been known to adapt to determined resistance. While the Legions may smack them down with complete ease the first...oh, let's say the first few handful of times, an individual Hive Fleet can make subtle changes in its child organisms - toughened exoskeletons, the ability to spew toxic clouds, etc. Crunch-wise, not all biomorphs are possible, and fluff-wise, not all are practical, but given the threat that Space Marine Legions represent, I would be able to see a Hive Fleet throwing caution to the wind and giving some truly unusual biomorphs to its creatures - Hormagaunts with talons covered in poisons as toxic as those of a Venomthrope, for example - particularly since it can recycle these creatures in addition to the biomass gained from its defeated foes.

And then there's Chaos to take into consideration. The 3e Daemonhunters codex, for example, opened up the possibility of a Hive Tyrant infected with one of Nurgle's poxes, moving ahead of the swarm to spread his plagues. Even while currently bereft of their mightiest servants (unless you count the Word Bearers), I don't think the Chaos Gods would ignore the coming of the Tyranids.

I know I've bloated the question beyond all reason, from "30k Imperium vs Tyranids" to "What would happen if the Tyranids showed up in 30k?", so to sum up, on the tactical or short-run scene, the Tyranids in all likelihood will get owned; personally I believe one look at _The Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal_ is enough to support this, but you know what they say about mixing fluff and crunch! On the grand strategic scene, though, the Tyranids will still give the 30k Imperium absolute hell.



Jacobite said:


> It only took 100 Ultramarine Veterans to hold a orbital station against Behemoth...


They died. Does it still count?

EDIT: I might be thinking of something else - the polar fortresses at the Battle of Macragge.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> Stuff
> 
> 
> 
> They died. Does it still count?


I say lets just keep with what 40k HAS encountered, no point in discussing something we have no idea.

Er...I don't know about that fluff. Did the Station remain in Imp hands and more or less intake, not blown up, if so then it was a Pyrrhic victory.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

locustgate said:


> I say lets just keep with what 40k HAS encountered, no point in discussing something we have no idea.


Why? All the things that I have described are in my opinion worth taking into consideration in the grand strategic scheme of things.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> Why? All the things that I have described are in my opinion worth taking into consideration in the grand strategic scheme of things.


We have no idea of what other weapons the nids have waiting in the wings, I'm ok with the hive mind giving existing upgrades to existing nids, even if they don't usually get it, but don't go creating new upgrades and new type of nids. If you go making up new stuff eventually you will make a uber nid/upgrade. Hell for all we know they have some kind of parasite that gets in the water and turns everyone into a nid zombie.

Edit: Not you personally but someone.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Hell for all we know they have some kind of parasite that gets in the water and turns everyone into a nid zombie.


What do we _really_ know about the true strength of the Tyranid race? If there was a full on real thing invasion 30k would be damned glad they had the bodies to rain from space to destroy worlds taken by the 'nids.



Protoss119 said:


> The 3e Daemonhunters codex, for example, opened up the possibility of a Hive Tyrant infected with one of Nurgle's poxes, moving ahead of the swarm to spread his plagues.


:shok: My point about the 'nids in a nutshell. They seem to be infinitely malleable, you'd have to kill the hive mind/overlord thing before it has a chance to adapt.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

locustgate said:


> We have no idea of what other weapons the nids have waiting in the wings, I'm ok with the hive mind giving existing upgrades to existing nids, even if they don't usually get it, but don't go creating new upgrades and new type of nids. If you go making up new stuff eventually you will make a uber nid/upgrade. Hell for all we know they have some kind of parasite that gets in the water and turns everyone into a nid zombie.


That's what they _do_, though. The Tyranids adapt and overcome, at least within the limits of the biomass available to them. I see your point about not using anything that hasn't already been made, but regardless it would not be wise to write off the adaptability of the Hive Mind. ntaw put the point better than I could - if you want to counter the Tyranids' adaptability and malleability, your best bet is to kill the creature providing Synapse and connecting lesser creatures to the Hive Mind. I'm not saying that the Legions can't do that; on the contrary, I reckon it'd be pretty darn easy, but perhaps not easy enough to write off.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The tyranids are the most adaptive race in the galaxy, and while this doesn't guarantee them victory it does mean they shouldn't be written off so quickly. Look at the tactics and kit outs of the current tyranids against their most common opponents. Most of their prey races so far have been basic human or something equivalent. 

In most cases, a lone termagant or hormagaunt is sufficient threat to a humanoid adversary. Given that these creatures are seemingly simple to breed, it is little wonder that the Hive Fleets do so in their billions. In terms of genetic material however they have proven to be able to engineer creatures on par with space marines and higher. In terms of biomass, I do not think a genestealer for example is all that more demanding to produce than a gaunt, given that all tyranids are essentially clones and clone mutants. 

Now think, if the first and most common foe the Hive Fleets encountered were space marines, do you really think they would continue to simply spew out ineffective gaunt broods, or do you think they might up their game a little and tackle their prey on more even terms? 

This is before even considering their proven ability to formulate new tactics and strategies, and keeping in mind the fact that they are perfectly willing to make momentary sacrifice for subsequent gain. Few armies can claim to be so readily willing to use such tactics.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Problem with going all "what if" with Tyranid abilities is you have to do the same with the Imperium. It's been a while, so my memory is hazy, but I think it was in _Mechanicum_ where it was hinted that there are bits of tech that hasn't been shared by the AdMech with the wider Imperium yet, and that the Emperor himself also has a few fancy toys he hasn't decided to let everyone else see. A threat as big as the Nids might prompt them to throw caution to the wind and start experimenting with some of the more exotic gadgets and things they have stored. I mean this isn't the 40k Mechanicus that are nigh-incapable of any original designs of any relevance to the wider Imperium, depending mostly on re-discovering shit to get anywhere. It is arguably the Mechanicus at its prime. Not to mention humanity is being led by the greatest human mind in existence. I'm willing to bet that a fleet of ships carrying a modified version of the life-eater virus as their payload is likely to ruin a Tyranid fleet's day pretty badly.

And I think the defence of Ultramar is a valid case as an example. A single chapter repelled a hive fleet. How long do you think that fleet would have lasted against a legion 250 times the chapter's size, led by their actual primarch? They would have probably been utterly squashed like the space bugs they are. And, and this is a big one, they ARE being led by a primarch. Superhuman beings not only physically but intellectually as well. Chances are that the moment the first fleet is defeated, the Nids will be analysed in terms of their potential future threat level and strategies and systems would be put in place for the next invasion. But eh, it really is impossible to make an accurate prediction without knowing the actual size of the main fleet. If it's only a few times larger than the vanguard fleets have been then the Imperium stomps the Nids pretty easily. If it's a few hundred times their size... then it's a very different picture.

Though if it's Gave Thorpe's Imperium they easily win. The Nids will seemingly smash through the Imperium unopposed, only for the Hive Mind to realize too late that it's a trap, and that all the Hive Tyrants are actually Alpha Legionnaires in disguise. After which the entire Nid race is promptly annihilated while Alpharius/Omegon sit somewhere going "Just as planned".


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> That's what they _do_, though. The Tyranids adapt and overcome,


That's what Space Marines do too. Adapt and overcome. They were built to conquer the galaxy, and did so. They were built to face off against the absolute pinnacle of the enemy and win, and did so.



> our best bet is to kill the creature providing Synapse and connecting lesser creatures to the Hive Mind


Tigirius (sp?) was able to directly touch the Hive Mind and suss out it's plans and yet he can barely hold a candle to half the Thousand Sons, never mind Magnus, Malcador and the God-Emperor. With that kind of psyhic might out and about the Tyranids are going to have a very hard time keeping their plans secret, if they can even still make them.



Serpion5 said:


> In terms of biomass, I do not think a genestealer for example is all that more demanding to produce than a gaunt, given that all tyranids are essentially clones and clone mutants.


But they must be, otherwise the Hive Mind wouldn't use Gaunts at all. Clearly there is greater benefit to using gaunts in most situations than stealers and since stealers are obviously the killier of the two the only reason for that would be ease of creation/use. 



> Now think, if the first and most common foe the Hive Fleets encountered were space marines, do you really think they would continue to simply spew out ineffective gaunt broods, or do you think they might up their game a little and tackle their prey on more even terms?


I'm guessing they'd still primarily use gaunts because that's what they do now when facing Marines. 



> keeping in mind the fact that they are perfectly willing to make momentary sacrifice for subsequent gain. Few armies can claim to be so readily willing to use such tactics.


Huh, I would've expected you to recognize that "Sacrifice for a greater victory" is basically the Imperium's SOP. Space Marines have proven time and time again to be willing to sacrifice everything and anything they have for even the most minor of victories. If that's what the Nids are relying on to win then they just aren't going to.


If the fleets waiting behind the current Hive Fleets are bigger, more powerful and/or on their way then the Tyranids will put up a good fight against the Great Crusade. If this was all they sent, they'd barely make a foot-note. The Great Crusade crushed countless empires and obliterated countless species and showed no signs of stopping till it turned upon itself. It's power was enough that the Chaos Gods played their most active role in history to stop it, and even that only kind of worked. The Tyranid's don't have the power, the numbers or the adaptability to stop them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm going to stand with MEQ. The power of the current Imperium and the Great Crusade Imperium is enormous. While not exactly winning, the Imperium has been able to contain or stop every hive fleet sent at it so far--minus the ones it's currently fighting, of course.

If the modern Imperium can do that, there's no way a fight between the Tyranids and Great Crusade Imperium could be anything but a curb stomp.

I think MEQ sums it up pretty well in his last paragraph:



MEQinc said:


> If the fleets waiting behind the current Hive Fleets are bigger, more powerful and/or on their way then the Tyranids will put up a good fight against the Great Crusade. If this was all they sent, they'd barely make a foot-note.


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## Hydraulix (May 5, 2013)

Eh, to tired to write a lot. But I completely disagree. Sure Marines are bad ass, yeah they are adaptable, but not as adaptable as Nids. If the Nids saw they were fighting thousands of marines, they would stop gaunt production and pump out warriors and bigger shit that are much more guaranteed to be effective. My opinion anyway.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

It's not simply the marines. Nearly EVERYTHING is both more plentiful and, in general, better built and understood. Land Raiders were in common use by the Imperial Army as well Super-Heavies like Baneblades. Titans were much, _much_ more common (as per _Titanticus_). 

In the Night Lord series, we see how powerful a pre-heresy _strike cruiser_ can be, easily the match for several "modern" cruisers of similar tonnage. And a strike cruiser is only a mid-weight compared to a battle-barge...which in turn was out-matched by a *considerable* margin of the largest warships of a Legion as seen in _Void Stalker_.

If the back of Hive Fleet Leviathan could be broken by a mere thousand marines with modest support from nearby systems, what could a hive fleet do against a hundred thousand marines backed up by tens of millions of guarsdmen, augmented by the Mechanicus at the height of its knowledge and power?

And least we forget, these forces would be commanded by a demi-god of war. Or even the Emperor of Mankind Himself!

I don't think the opposition appreciates how different the current Imperium is to the GC-Imperium.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

hailene said:


> I don't think the opposition appreciates how different the current Imperium is to the GC-Imperium.


I don't think any of us _actually know_ what size and type of threat the Tyranid race is. 

The whole Warhammer 30/40k story is centred around the Imperium so they will likely win against everything anyway. They use rigged dice!!


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