# HH comic book deaths.



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Just finished "Betrayer", and Cyrene is back? If you wanna bring her back that is cool. They came up with the Voodoo chaos ritual that brought her back.. but they really need ot limit this crap. We now have Loken back. With him we can also see a reason to get back Raynor and Tarvitz.

Can someone please stay dead? A 'sacrafice' doesn't mean much if you keep coming back from the dead. 

They didn't kill Garro off which is a good thing. I think the storyline would be much better served if he sculpted his new life based off off of the leap of faith he had with trusting Saul and not shooting him out of the sky during I3. Not bringing Saul back from the dead which I am worried they are going to do.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I don't think the act of resurrection is bad if said character will play an important part in the story further on. In Cyrene's case I suspect she will be involved in the Perpetual plot. Let's not forget the deed was performed by Erebus, one of the most knowledgeable of Chaos and its ways, and I get the feeling the act of resurrection is taboo as fuck, even for Traitors, despite Lorgar's joy at her return.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Loken's return was because he didn't die in the first place. Eidolon and Lucius because of the genius of Fabius who was gradually hacking into the Emperor's secrets. Just take it for what it is.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

Betrayer spoiler:



Well, Argel Tal will defintely stay dead. ADB said so himself


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Couldn't give a fuck. She was one of the most pitiable characters written in the story so far. Bland, uninteresting, screaming out Divine Intervention for the sake of Divine Intervention.

I ended up speed reading her parts when she wasn't interacting with the Astartes; that way, he really managed to get across their autistic nature, which is something that's been missing a lot (as SM in the past used to be big men in space). However, outside of that, she was melodrama, and one I couldn't really get into. Having said that, my first reading of TFH was similar (wasn't too keen on how the Custodes came across, as opposed to Blood Games); and so seeing her back merely reinforced TFH as being an verly long exposition.

However, I think it's time I probably picked it up again, I did enjoy Argel Tal and the Word Bearers, and Erebus became less of a charactature.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> Just finished "Betrayer", and Cyrene is back? If you wanna bring her back that is cool. They came up with the Voodoo chaos ritual that brought her back.. but they really need ot limit this crap. We now have Loken back. With him we can also see a reason to get back Raynor and Tarvitz.
> 
> Can someone please stay dead? A 'sacrafice' doesn't mean much if you keep coming back from the dead.
> 
> They didn't kill Garro off which is a good thing. I think the storyline would be much better served if he sculpted his new life based off off of the leap of faith he had with trusting Saul and not shooting him out of the sky during I3. Not bringing Saul back from the dead which I am worried they are going to do.


First off this thread should probably have a spoiler warning in the title. Some big spoilers bellow. 

Anyway, Loken didn’t ‘come back from the dead’ as he wasn’t dead in the first place. I doubt Tarvitz is dead either (and hope he’s not). I really don’t understand why some people have a problem with this. I’ve no doubt they will have suitably tragic deaths in the fullness of time. Plenty died at Istvaan III to make it tragic.

I strongly agree however that once dead, you STAY dead, whether it be Cyrene, Elidolon, Lucius, Gruglor, Torgaddon, Gramaticus, demons, etc. Half the bloody cast dies and then comes back to life (I’m waiting for the Ferrus Manus reincarnation). If anybody and everybody can come back from the dead then death losses all kind of meaning. It’s a nonsense. Its one of the few things ADB has done that left me shaking my head. 

On a side note that Tormagodon (or however its spelt) thing to me is only a daemon using a bit of Torgaddon’s DNA. Its not Torgaddon at all. He died tragically on Istvaan III.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> I strongly agree however that once dead, you STAY dead, whether it be Cyrene, Eidolon, Lucius, Grulgor, Torgaddon, Gramaticus, Daemons, etc. Half the bloody cast dies and then comes back to life (I’m waiting for the Ferrus Manus reincarnation). If anybody and everybody can come back from the dead then death losses all kind of meaning. It’s a nonsense. Its one of the few things ADB has done that left me shaking my head.


All of these have explanations that make it acceptable.



Cyrene was actually resurrected, but it's obvious that what Erebus did was something that should not have happened. I think he "broke the rules" when he did that, something that mortals shouldn't be able to do and in doing so he altered Cyrene into a Perpetual.

Eidolon is something else entirely, a sign that Fabius Bile is starting to crack the Emperor's secrets and may be on the road to doing with science what Erebus does with magic.

Lucius is obvious. Slaanesh brought him back because Slaanesh doesn't want him to die yet, not until he can become the Eternal.

Grulgor never died. He became a Daemon Prince after Garro spaced him. So he isn't dead.

Gramaticus is a Perpetual and so he obviously cannot die. Even voiding himself wouldn't change that, or perhaps it did kill him and there is an explanation that we are not seeing yet.

Daemons are Daemons. They don't die, at least they only very very very very rarely die.




LotN


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

mal310 said:


> Anyway, Loken didn’t ‘come back from the dead’ as he wasn’t dead in the first place. I doubt Tarvitz is dead either (and hope he’s not). I really don’t understand why some people have a problem with this. I’ve no doubt they will have suitably tragic deaths in the fullness of time. Plenty died at Istvaan III to make it tragic.


Problem being that if they bring back Tarvitz is that there will have been no one anyone gave a shit about that died, so it really defeats the point of it. No emotional significance with the opening shot of the heresy. Lame. Plenty died in every HH book, difference is that no one gives a fuck because they are all no namers. 

The HH team really needs to throw together some strong characters, establish them and get them all killed, because right now, fuck everyone will show up at a later point because they insist on using established 40k characters.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. ADB is one of the few authors that are establishing characters that are unique to the Heresy, that you can invest in and could easily die. For example, I now feel enough of a fan of Corswain, that I'm dreading ADB killing him off. And he's already done it with 

Argel Tal


There are so few loyalist characters that will have any worth to being killed right now. Currently all I have for characters that have appeared in more than one novel and that I care about are Garro, Loken, Corswain and Qruze. With all but Corswain likely off to become Grey Knights. Theil is due to appear in his own audio and likely other novels. Cheesy as he is, I'm a somewhat reluctant fan of Sharrowkyn, but I'm not overly concerned if either Theil or Sharrowkyn are killed. Custodian Amon is another character I quite like thinking about it.

So many traitor characters that have been established are known to survive the Heresy, so that become rather moot.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> All of these have explanations that make it acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand they all have explanations as to why they have come back, however the point for me is that death should have a finality to it, end of, fineto. Not; the end until some plot devise brings you back. BTW Grulgor was deader than a slab of bacon. 



Doelago said:


> Problem being that if they bring back Tarvitz is that there will have been no one anyone gave a shit about that died, so it really defeats the point of it. No emotional significance with the opening shot of the heresy. Lame. Plenty died in every HH book, difference is that no one gives a fuck because they are all no namers.
> 
> The HH team really needs to throw together some strong characters, establish them and get them all killed, because right now, fuck everyone will show up at a later point because they insist on using established 40k characters.


I doubt ‘nobody gave a shit’ about Torgaddon getting beheaded by one of his best friends, Solomon Demeter being tricked into hacking to bits his allies before being betrayed to his death or Temeter trying to save as many of his men as he could before he was liquidised by the death eater virus at the side of his dreadnought friend. 

I totally agree they should stop using established 40k characters. Angel Exterminatus was a bloody joke.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

mal310 said:


> First off this thread should probably have a spoiler warning in the title. Some big spoilers bellow.
> 
> Anyway, Loken didn’t ‘come back from the dead’ as he wasn’t dead in the first place.


For all intents and purposes, he was. After reading the Game of Thrones series, I realise how sheltered I've been by having explicit details over characters deaths. I've realised I've enjoyed "worrying" over the lack of details; namely Syrio Forel first of all, and then over later ones, like a certain "ward" in there.

I've been coddled, and GRRM was able to perfectly capture the confusing nature of war. Units and people get lost all the time in war; or used to, at least; they do their best not to do so anymore, but even Fallujah and B20 show it can still happen; in here, everything is answered for within the space of a book; apart from Loken. Now, it's annoying that I don't get the Audio books, but that I still hear of what happens in them. That such an "important" character as Loken came back from the dead, but that to the "eyes" of one who likes to READ books, not LISTEN to them like a Hyperactive kid so high on e-numbers they can smell colours, that Loken is still dead is fucking annoying.

It just goes to show that unless he is brought back into the core storyline, as opposed to the niche ADHD market, that the storyline is almost entirely seperate from the HH novels and simply shares a universe, and can essentially be classed as "non-canon".



> I doubt Tarvitz is dead either (and hope he’s not). I really don’t understand why some people have a problem with this. I’ve no doubt they will have suitably tragic deaths in the fullness of time. Plenty died at Istvaan III to make it tragic.


Who needs tragic deaths? They're space marines, against Space Marines. The CONFLICT is the tragedy, but the deaths should be as brutal, efficient and unpleasureable as something out of a Clive Barker novel. There should be no gloating, no epic speeches. They should simply batter the fuck out of each like the Klitscho brothers DP'ing Hayden Panetierre. The one thing I disagreed with the duel between Abaddon and Loken is that Loken wasn't defeated in about two seconds flat. A really abrupt short sharp death. Gav Thorpe tried that with Nemiel (?) in the Primarch's story; but it was a) the wrong person to try it on, b) the wrong writer (his pacing is well off the mark), c) the wrong chapter, d) there wasn't actually a conflict, and e) it was a Primarch.

In the end, it just came across as El Johnson was a bit of a cunt and a bully.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

mal310 said:


> I doubt ‘nobody gave a shit’ about Torgaddon getting beheaded by one of his best friends, Solomon Demeter being tricked into hacking to bits his allies before being betrayed to his death or Temeter trying to save as many of his men as he could before he was liquidised by the death eater virus at the side of his dreadnought friend.


Only one I really cared about was Torgaddon and only started doing so when he was reborn in Know No Fear. That‘s mostly due to Counter and McNeil being very good at ruining characters Abnett established. The others I could not have cared less about. 



mal310 said:


> I totally agree they should stop using established 40k characters. Angel Exterminatus was a bloody joke.


McNeil is easily the biggest offender of all the authors.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I've not read betrayer (or Angel) as still haven't seen them in store in regular format but how does the 



Argel Tal story fit with Aurelian? Based on that argel should be fighting at Terra and be killed by Sanguinius. 

Could it be that his possessed buddy has more of Argel than they realise and he pulls a Fulgrim?



I think the point of heresy stories is that characters should die. The heresy is on such a scale its not a tragedy, we see the marines as ammo expended in the larger conflict. Individual stories are what are key to effective story telling. To misquote Stalin "Death of one man is a tragedy. Death of a million is a statistic"

Kill characters (Other than the one WB I really like!) kill them in a cold way, kill them in a visceral way. But after they die they should stay dead unless there is clear reason for chaotic intervention


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Barnster said:


> I've not read betrayer (or Angel) as still haven't seen them in store in regular format but how does the
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The vision Lorgar was shown of Argel Tal on Terra was just one of many possible futures. Erebus has viewed many of them and tried to alter them wherever possible, having seen Argel Tals influence would stop Kharn from fully embracing chaos, he decided to kill Argel Tal. He kills him on balcony of the bastion mounted on a titan, with the Aquilla of the bastion casting a shadow over them thereby still fulfilling the prophecy of 'dying in the shadow of great wings'. 

Both Argel Tal and Raum are dead. Erebus killed them with one of the shards, which have been proven to permanently kill deamons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mal310 said:


> Plenty died at Istvaan III to make it tragic.


Plenty nameless individuals sure. But we, as readers, don't give a flying fuck about them. However, I do take your point...


mal310 said:


> I doubt ‘nobody gave a shit’ about Torgaddon getting beheaded by one of his best friends, Solomon Demeter being tricked into hacking to bits his allies before being betrayed to his death or Temeter trying to save as many of his men as he could before he was liquidised by the death eater virus at the side of his dreadnought friend.


...but it was Loken we really cared about. Loken's 'death' personified Isstvan III perfectly, and was a perfect way to end the opening trilogy before ushering in the next set of novels. There is a reason...

Ned Stark's
...death was so effective in GoT. By not killing off Loken, the series missed the chance to have a significant emotional impact on the reader. Instead he's brought back to (likely) have some role in the foundation of the Inquisition/Grey Knights that some other character could have easily filled in for. Waste.



Angel of Blood said:


> With all but Corswain likely off to become Grey Knights.


I wouldn't be surprised if Corswain gets sucked up into Malcador's pathetic recruitment drive tbh.



mal310 said:


> I totally agree they should stop using established 40k characters. Angel Exterminatus was a bloody joke.


_Angel Exterminatus_ was a shite novel. One reason (of many) being the cast list. Mcneill needs to get a grip. I really can't fathom why he used a central cast of characters that then go on to feature in his inconsequential 40k works.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Problem being that if they bring back Tarvitz is that there will have been no one anyone gave a shit about that died, so it really defeats the point of it. No emotional significance with the opening shot of the heresy. Lame. Plenty died in every HH book, difference is that no one gives a fuck because they are all no namers.
> 
> The HH team really needs to throw together some strong characters, establish them and get them all killed, because right now, fuck everyone will show up at a later point because they insist on using established 40k characters.


To me also is this and nothing else. No resurrections, let others carry the story, theres plenty of people to go around.


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