# how can i beat my friends CSM with my orks?



## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

My friend plays a very agresive world eaters army, that uses the rhino rush (he has 30 marines in 3 rhinos) and he just kicked my orks but last week. it was kill points- he got 9/9 i got 2/11-beacause my waboss got the charge against his DS terminators(there was 3 of them). his standard list looks a bit like this(it varies a bit):

Kharin the betrayer
29 world eaters in 3 rhinos(10 in each, kharin joins one unit)
i unit of outflanking chosen
1 unit of DS terminators
dread with ML and HB
havocs with 4 HB.
+drop pods with extra marines, sometimes chosen use them.

last game he let me deploy first and i filled up one half of my side(long table edge). he then took the other corner, and side raped me.

I have:

warboss/Mega Armour with 10 normal nobs+painboy
30 ard boys with wierd boy (possibly lose eavy armour to get more stuff in)
20 boys with nob with PK
10 boys with shootas
5 lootas
5 burnas (going to count as looters)
5 tankbustas( i know that they are too small)
6 warbikers
1 kan(going to ditch)
battle wagon(boom gun optional-probaly wont use it)
(unpainted) trukk + deafdread+big mek with shok attack gun.
also able to add some stuff, but nothing big due to lack of space(so no stompas).

Another friend has advised me to get 10 komandos led by snikrot.
what should i do to beat him for once and for all? all advice welcome.
EDIT- i struggle in the deploment phase- so much it often costs me the game.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

unless you're playing Apoc chaos don't get to use drop pods for one.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Well It seems like you lack numbers for one which is not right. Orks should Always out number their opponent unless nids .

Secondly how many points are you playing?

Lastly Always try and deploy first and on the side that provides the most cover. He plays CC heavy too so focus Fire! Widdle down his numbers so you can gang beat them in cc!

Ill think more and get back to you! its far to early 

cheers,

CHaosftw


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

M3rr3k-he claimes that chaos can use Drop pods, and that it is covered by some FAQ-will question him closey.
chaosftw-he likes 3000 pt games(which i hate), i like 1500pt games. i always try to negotiate it so that i only have 1500 pts on me at any one time, he trys to ge me to partner with a couple of neewbs so we can have larger games-But a 3000pt army will always beat a 1500pt army and 3 500pt armys. I also don't comunicate my intentions to team mates very well- i can only work alone.
In this game he used cover to protect his rhinos until 20 marines were able to pop out and rapid fire my units to death one at a time untill they could charge me.There was prety much cover all over the place and i kept rolling low for my difficult terrain tests and run tests.


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

that simply isn't the case - in apoc, chaos can use the datasheets that the Imperials use, so that may be where that is coming from

weight of number will win the day - he can hit you as much as he likes, if you manage to hit him back enough, then he'll fall

and furthermore, his Fearless WE will take more wounds!


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

Thats the problem- 6 orks will never beat 20 charging CSM-i need to take out those rhinos, then charge him. how ever, he starts behind cover, pops smoke 2nd turn then assults 3rd turn. Maybe i should make my shok attack gun- that may work[insert evil laugh here].


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

right, here's the plan - units - have a min size unit that you let him assault on his turn. they die, oh well - you then counter change with a nice large unit thus taking the initiative from him. you don't even need to use your waagh to do this.

it'll not be pretty, and you'll take a lot of wounds, but you'll stop him

keep the units basic to ensure you can take more so that you can do this at several points on the field


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

You're absolutely right, even (2) 1,500 point lists are going to struggle to take down a 3,000 point list - unless they were specifically tooled to work together... Tell your _friend_ that if he wants to play you he needs to play *YOU*. If that means he can't take every one of his models then so be it. Looking at your list, you must be playing Apoc as you have 3 HQ units (Warboss, Wierdboy and Big Mek) which means alternatively you could play the green-horde card & just continue to bring on new boys squads whenever he eliminates one...

Another thing - your oponent is totaly cheating you - Berzerkers can't rapid fire as they have pistols. If his Havocs are disembarking from rhinos they can't fire heavy bolters that turn.

Orcs vs berserkers is going to be a battle of maneuvering to get that charge because you both have the same number of attacks, and both have furious charge - of course, even if you charge him, he still has a higher WS and initiative meaning he strikes first & hits on three's but take heart! 

You can WAAAGH! and charge an extra D6 inches that he doesn't get!
Your trucks are open topped which means you can drive into his lines, disembark and assault
you can field 3.5 boys to his one marine! Which means that if you assault, even if every single one of his attacks wounds & you fail every armor save - you still have return attacks, including the most kung fu thing in 40K - Ork's practice the art of hidden fist! That nob is always the last guy to take any saves.

Note: I play slaaneshi chaos marines & typically run 12 noisemarines w/ sonic weaponry I'm typically able to remove a 30-man boy squad and reduce another to about 50% before I'm forced to feed some fodder (and that's if I don't use lash - which I do:grin


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## orky1 (Oct 16, 2008)

Dafistofmork said:


> I have:
> 
> *warboss/Mega Armour* with 10 normal nobs+painboy
> 30 ard boys with* wierd boy* (possibly lose eavy armour to get more stuff in)
> ...


First off this list is illegal with 3 HQ's. I'd ditch the warbikers if they're not nob warbikers. If you're using a trukk take the squad of 10 boyz add another one and put a nob with PK to have a squad rush up to his front lines


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

orky1-i havent built the big mek yet-that is simply a list of modles i own, not an army list(otherwise this will be in the lists, not the tactics). the trukk is unpainted so i can not use it (bloody gaming room rules). In this battle i took eveything there apart from 3 of the bikers, the battle wagon, the trukk, the dread and the big mek.

m3rr3k-They are not bezerkers, they are "pre-heresy" world eaters (so standered chaos marines in a tacky white and blue colour scheme-white and blue does not work) led by kharn. his havocs sit at the back and shoot the hell out of me in cover with the dread.

Drax-so i send my 10 shoota boys forwards, they die 60 pts down the drain he is now in assult range (maybe a waaagh to trick him) and i just clober him. nice- but he has greater manuverability than me, so he is able to get the charge against the units he chooses. Should i get more tank bustas and hope to score lucky? if i can get the big mek sorted out that will be a nasty suprise for him.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Well - you'll probably never beat him "once and for all" (I just noticed that...)

I wouldn't worry about more tank-busta's, or loota's, or kommando's.

I'd make your bikers nob bikers (it's as easy as saying "see these bikers? Yeah, they're nobs. See this one, the one with a big red cross on his arm? Yeah, he's a painboy"). Nob bikers are rough. T5 (or is that 6?) FNP, a 4+ coversave everywhere they go & an 18" move? wow.

Maximize your boys squads - 2x 30 boys mobs with hidden fists nets in below 500 points. Run them behind the nob bikers - bikers get the 4+ from their exhaust cloud, boys get the 4+ from being behind another unit.

Since your opponent is using the chaos codex his dreadnaught will be unreliable and you can expect at least one turn per game it will roll a fire frenzy. If he's keeping it near his own marines it turns & fires both its HB & ML into his own troops. Hopefully this happens on turn one or two allowing you to get closer.

Keep your battlewagon open-topped & use it to bring your warboss & nobs into the fray.

The big mek w/ shock attack gun looks real purdy but remember, he suffers from the same problem all orcs do. He's got BS2, meaning that pie plate is going to scatter far. AND there's a significant chance he's going to have a missfire of some sort & either turf the unit he's with or end up all alone right in the middle of a squad of angry world eaters...


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

with the big mek i like to think i am good at rolling doulble 6. instant death (as in no roll to wound or any save of any kind at all!) anyone?

on a serrious note- so i should by more boys (good solid genural advice) and upgrade the bikers to nob bikers. the biker nob is currently armed with a 'Uge Choppa- will that be any good? or should we count it as a PK? we are not playing wysiwyg (he has a converted plastic marine to represent Kharn-if that is wysiwyg i dont know what isn't)


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

First - I would use your lootas to target his transports - they will make a mess of them real fast (or at least, try to stop them) if you can get one of them taken down in the first turn that's a third of his assault force that's gotta run across the board.

Second - 30 Ard Boys with a wierdboy is a bit meh - use a massive mob of shooty boyz so if you roll the deepstrike result, you can teleport somewhere (near his Havocs?) and unleash a lot of shots! Then charge 'em if you're still alive in the following turn.

Third - consider taking a couple of cheap screening units to put infront of your big mobz; they will have to take the initial charge then your mobz are free to pile in and kill stuff (30 charging boyz will kill quite a lot...)

Lastly; re-read the rules, front to back (it's only 100 pages, not including pictures) as you should know the important ones off by heart to make sure he isn't getting an unfair advantage. Get a copy of the Chaos Space Marine Codex, if you can afford it, to read up on his units, special rules etc so you can work out what Ork units are best for countering his.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

Shit-deffguns are S7-must get more.
I've ditched the eavy armour for more boyz (including screeners) (army list coming soon).
Might invest in his codex, but can i be arsed spending £15? proably not.


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

bishop has essentially phrased better what i was aiming for - screening units

sort of like theis: ( O

the 'O' is the big large choppa mob and the '(' is the screening unit of shootas - the screening unit takes the initial charge and perhaps do a little damage before they die - the bezerkers cannot consolidate into another unit so they are left in the open to take a pistol shot from each of the models in the big mob, followed by a ton load of choppa hits in combat at +1S and +1I

the key point is that the screening unit is positioned so that a charging unit cannot get around to the big mob too early, the screen provides a 4+ cover save to the big mob and the big mob is far enough behind not to get caught in a multiple combat, but close enough so that even if the bezerkers consolidate away from the big unit, a move followed by a waagh and then a charge will get you into combat!

savvy?


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

Nice. how about burnas as a screen? as the list i've put up (in the lists section under a similar title) has ditched the shootas-the power weapon attacks have got to hurt (if they survive).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I play World Eaters (with real Beserkers). So let me get this straight. He is using a Prey Heresy World Eater Army with a Marine Codex? A CSM Codex? Are they treated as Beserkers or CSM with Mark of Khorn? Whats the deal here.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Easiest way to beat down 30 beserker in rhinos - DEFF GUNS 20 LOOTA BOYZ that can be upto a total of 60 S7 AP4 shot is one turn, next thing that is your friend Nob Bikerz with a Pain Boy then fill the rest with Slugga choppa boyz on foot with Nobs with Boss poles - you are then fearless and if you loose a round of combat you can choose to kill one ork boy to auto pass without loosing all your orks that survived CC


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Figure out if your opponent is using regular CSM with an icon of khorne or actual berserkers. Only CSM have the bolters.

I see the biggest problem with your army being tiny squads that just get annihilated and likely fail tons of morale checks when they take only a few losses.

Nob bikers + warboss on bike will serve you well backed up by lootas and deffkoptas to pop his tanks and then plenty of boyz. Make sure there are plenty of power klaws in the nobs (somewhere between 1 per 3 nobs and 1 per 2 nobs is usually good) and the warboss has one. Painboy and cybork bodies as well. A shokk attack gun will probably serve you well, my advice is to put it with a unit of 10 boyz + big shoota in cover and rain down pie plates. The weirdboy is generally a suboptimal choice, and a boomgun on the battlewagon is actually not a bad plan is you're not using it as a transport. Snikrot and friends aren't a terrible idea, they can probably take out the havocs. The problem is that the havocs would still get several turns of shooting and snikrot and friends can't really take on any of the other full strength squads except the termies.

As orks you should be able to be tougher than 30 CSM in a 1500pt. game. You can field 10 nob bikers + biker boss, 25 lootas, and 90 boyz led by powerklaw nobs, all squads with all the bells and whistles they want. Such a force should be able to stomp his handily. I advise you to develop a coherent army with full size squads instead of a piecemeal force with reduced or minimum sized squads.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

You don't just sit back, and let him win its the right thing to do.... failing you taking my advice spamming out a crap load of boys with choppas always seems to work.


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## hockeydude16 (Apr 22, 2009)

personally i would drop the burnas, killer can, and tank bustas, these units are fun to use and can do some damage, but chances are they will die very very quickly, and any opponet that is wise will just put a vehicle just out of range of your tank bustas making them useless, this would make room for lootas (best unit in your army) that can eat rhinos. Besides that i would make the warbikers nob warbikers, and put your warboss on a bike (making them a troop choice). Make each nob have something different so you can distribute wounds, and tear up the troops that pop out of burning rhinos. As far as the Mek with a shokk attack gun it would be muuuchhh more useful to run him with a custom force field giving all your foot sloggers a 5+ inv


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## xCr0okz- (Jul 20, 2009)

i actually used to play orks and now i play CSM
i would have to agree that strength in numbers is always a good bet
SAG is good fun but a little risky and if hes smart that wouldnt be to hard to kill
i would ditch the mega armor and use cover to advance while avoiding being in cover
u need to get there as fast as possible 
lootas with a SAG is a very nice fire support and kommandos with snikrot would help alot


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

World eaters tend to be a more CC oriented army, so I'd try to whittle their numbers down with shooting. More Lootas will help (personally, I always use a full squad of 15), as will the SAG. If he's deepstriking Terminators, they will end up in a big circle which will fit nicely under the AP2 template. The killkannon on the battlewagon will help a lot as well. AP3 really hurts MEQ armies. Orks don't have to be all about CC, their shooting can do a lot of damage as well!

If your warboss has mega armour, I'd put him in a squad of meganobz rather than regular nobz. He'll just slow them down otherwise. Or you can put them in a battlewagon, then the mega armour doesn't matter as much.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

I play Orks,

I play damn killy Orks - In fact I can't remember the last time I lost a 1v1 game and I play at least 2 games a week. There are a few things you need to know about orks in order to use them well.

1) Outnumber - your squads should always outnumber whatever it is you are going to attack. You will lose a lot of models, even if you charge, you need to make sure you have enough models standing to be able to do enough attacks back. This might mean throwing 2 squads of 30 boyz at 1 squad of berzerkers. 11 boyz and a nob in a trukk just ain't going to cut it against most CC oriented units out there. If you are taking a footsloggin squad of boyz, I would say take as close to 30 as you can. 20 if you are going with battlewagons.

2) Bosspoles - Whenever you take a nob always take a bosspole - a couple of points to save a unit, well worth it, considering Orks Ld.

3) Power Klaws - Whenever I take a nob in a squad of boy, I always take a power klaw. Why not? He'll live forever, gives you a chance against TEQ's and MC's and if you need to, anti-tank.




Some very common, very good units include: Nob bikers, Lootas, Boyz, & warbosses. Most successful ork lists will incorporate some or all of these. Personally, when I play competitively, I stock up on all of them.

Things to know about these units:

Lootas - Take squads in numbers of 15 or as close as possible. With their Shitty BS, if you only roll 1 shot each, you're going to need them all just to score hits. That being said, when you roll 3 shots each, nothing better than saying that you have 45 autocannon shots to take. These guys are there to pop transports/artillery/low Armour stuff early game and then move on to mass wounding troops. 

Boyz - Forget trukks unless you are running an army of them. 11 boyz ain't gonna cut it. Take squads of 30 with a nob. These guarantees enough bodies that you will have enough boyz left to still generate some hurt at whatever you assault. If running battlewagons, 20 will suffice as they are well protected on the way over. Additionally, shoota boyz in squads of 30 make great mid-field objective holders, especially with 3 big shootas. If objectives are placed close enough, you may even be able to hold 2 with them will putting out a gross amount of hurt.

Nob bikers - don't bother with Meganobz or nobz in battlewagons - nobs on bikes are where it's at. T5 with a 3+/4+/4+/5+ saving capability and a 12" movement. Take a warboss on a bike to compliment these guys and now you have one of the most potent units in the game that counts as a troop choice. I usually field a squad of 10 with a warboss and it never fails to let me down. Just make sure to gear each one out separately in order to abuse the wound allocation. Note: Always take a painboy and cybork bodies. FNP and a 5+ are very much worth it, especially with all the stuff that ignores cover these days and is ap 4 or lower.

Warbosses - are great. They're cheap, great in CC, and make a unit of nobz a troop choice. I would always give them a power klaw and an attack squig. That's 6 str 10 attacks on the charge. Not much can survive that. On a bike it gives him T6, a 4+/4+ and great movement. Throw on a cybork body and you've got yourself a relatively cheap CC machine. 

A 1500 point list I run that does very well:

1500 Pts - Orks Roster

HQ: Warboss (1#, 150 Pts)
1 Warboss 
Power Klaw; Attack Squig; Cybork Body; Warbike

HQ: Warboss (1#, 115 Pts)
1 Warboss @ 115 Pts
Power Klaw; 'Eavy Armour; Attack Squig; Cybork Body

Elite: Lootas (15#, 225 Pts)
15 Lootas @ 225 Pts
Defffguns; 

Troops: Nobz (9#, 582 Pts)
1 painboy
1 power klaw
1 power klaw, bosspole
1 Waaagh! Banner
1 Combi Rokkit
1 Combi Scorcha
1 Ammo Runt
1 Bosspole
1 Big Choppa
Count as Troop Troops; Stikkbombs; Cybork Body; (x1); Warbikes

Troops: Boyz (26#, 196 Pts)
25 Boyz 
Choppa & Slugga; 
1 Boyz Nob 
Power Klaw; Bosspole

Troops: Boyz (30#, 235 Pts)
29 Boyz
Big Shoota (x3); Shoota; 
1 Boyz Nob
Power Klaw; Bosspole

Total Roster Cost: 1503


Note: The above list a purely power-gaming list. It should be noted that Orks are also meant to be taken lightly. Their fluff/gear/playstyle is hilarious. I also enjoy playing friendly games in which I indulge in some of their more ludicrous rules and units. Ie: Taking 9 killa kans and 2 deff dreads or taking an army of shoota boyz, etc etc.


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