# Whats going on with new Orcs?



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Haven't even had a chance to look at the new orc book, but this comment gave me pause, could anyone explain what's meant by this? 




Obviously not an Orc Enthusiast said:


> You won't have a retarded army book like the O+G; basically selling out everything Fantasy was.


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## kain1989 (Dec 1, 2009)

i don't know for sure, but i'm guessing its some leftover bitter feelings from the whole 
8th edition ruined fantasy phase. and people aren't happy with where fantasy is going. but that's just my opinion.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I dunno either, I've looked at the Ork book and it looks pretty good to me *shrugs*.

Though, on the whole '8th ed ruined fantasy' thing... for me its more 8th ed magic and stupid template weapon rules and stupid horde rules ruined fantasy. 

8th's fine, if you get rid of the dumb things like how cannons hit and Dwellers and Purple Sun and some of the dumber combat resolution rules.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> I dunno either, I've looked at the Ork book and it looks pretty good to me *shrugs*.
> 
> Though, on the whole '8th ed ruined fantasy' thing... for me its more 8th ed magic and stupid template weapon rules and stupid horde rules ruined fantasy.
> 
> 8th's fine, if you get rid of the dumb things like how cannons hit and Dwellers and Purple Sun and some of the dumber combat resolution rules.


My local is actually conisdering playing "low fantasy" none of the above mentioned lame. Allowing more room for tactics


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Eighth edition changed a lot of things that needed to be changed, like some overpowered monsters, ludicrously long movement phases, and othersuch things, but it also broke some things. Overall, I think it's better for a fun game, but not as good for a tourney setting, where you get the most people complaining. Having a reason to take huge blocks of infantry is nice, but it would have been nice if they had toned down some of the killer spells, made magic resistance worth something, and buffed terror so that monsters can accomplish something in tune with their points cost.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> Eighth edition changed a lot of things that needed to be changed, like some overpowered monsters, ludicrously long movement phases, and othersuch things, but it also broke some things. Overall, I think it's better for a fun game, but not as good for a tourney setting, where you get the most people complaining. Having a reason to take huge blocks of infantry is nice, but it would have been nice if they had toned down some of the killer spells, made magic resistance worth something, and buffed terror so that monsters can accomplish something in tune with their points cost.


As a whole I agree with you. The game is fine when you play in a friendly setting. But as soon as people start spamming the book lores, it quickly becomes on excercise in die rolling. Can you roll irresistible? Can I dispel you?

When it gets to that point, nothing else in the game really matters.


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## stevenhassell (Aug 5, 2009)

i played a half dosen times with the new book.. in my opinon the orcs and gobos have gone back to how they use to which was unpredictable fun. jumping back to the old style anamosity test is great fun. no i love the new spider but he has died every time and the only great victory it can clame in its death is reducing arcon to one wound to wich he was shortly dispatched by a fanatic in the following turn. over all i like the new rules


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think the bitterness of that comment may well be associated with the "new" ideas of limited magic items in books, and more use of "common" magic items. The orcs have little of their own magic to play with. As do the tomb kings, it would seem. I don't understand the idea that "magic is overpowered" now. I've won and lost a couple of games versus devastating magic, but tactics still seems to overpower brute force still.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

8th changed the game.

O+G is the only book thus far written to use the new rules. So it plays to the obvious strengths.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

I get really bored of people whinging about rule changes, GW are a company that sells a product, if you don't like that product don't buy it!

IMO 8th fixed and broke things but it is no worse than any other edition, just different. I'm seriously not a fan of killer spells but then as a dwarf player my guns have been buffed, swings and roundabouts. I've played against the new Orc book a couple of times and I think it's more streamlined and better aligned to the new rules.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I actually don't have a problem with cannons. Yes, they and other war machines are very powerful, but they're also very vulnerable to scouts, flyers, and anything that can quickly charge them. Personally, I think Empire mortars are more broken than any cannon.

All in all, I only believe that there are 3 things wrong with 8th edition: Purple Sun, Dwellers Below, and some of the rules regarding how template attacks work (they're too favorable to Skaven, and not favorable enough to characters riding monsters).

Anyway, to get back on topic, I hear that the new Orc and Goblins are random, fun, and fairly well balanced, but not quite the 'horde' army they used to be. Skaven can now do horde better. It's the cheapness and randomness of the O+G non-infantry units, and fanatics, that really make them worthwhile.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I think the problem with cannons is more that they're counted as a template weapon that hits every point on a model at once. Seriously, in all reality... how can a cannonball, no bigger then a football, hits everything on a monster bigger then a house, and its riders at the same time? It can't... And thats my complaint with it. 

Spells.. well we obviously know why and which are so stupidly broken they should have never been introduced, so enough said about them, and Captain Spamalot of the Elves.


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## kain1989 (Dec 1, 2009)

yeah, cannons are powerful, and certain spells can one shot kill an army outright. but in most tournaments coming up, teclis/book of hoeth is banned, along with the power scroll and purple sun. I wish they didn't have to make custom rules to fix the game in a tourny, but i'll take a few custom fixes to have an overall more balanced game. The real reason people are still bitter, is because fantasy is 10x more competative than 40k. so when tournament play is affected, people get their panties in a twist.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

kain1989 said:


> yeah, cannons are powerful, and certain spells can one shot kill an army outright. but in most tournaments coming up, teclis/book of hoeth is banned, along with the power scroll and purple sun. I wish they didn't have to make custom rules to fix the game in a tourny, but i'll take a few custom fixes to have an overall more balanced game. The real reason people are still bitter, is because fantasy is 10x more competative than 40k. so when tournament play is affected, people get their panties in a twist.


It's really the unnecessary dumbing down of the ruleset along with introducing various "I win" buttons.

Why would I spend time thinking out my turns when I can miasma your initiative twice and then Rape Sun you? Why would I think about synergy when I have cannons and a gunline to protect them(Gunlines=super effective against scouts, fliers, harassment units)? Why would I make an effort to learn the finer nuances when I have a high elf army? Who cares about tactical advantage when my dark elf lord cant be killed in combat?

We've played the dumb game. It's called 40k. A toddler with a top tier list could beat a veteran who's played habitually since rogue trader with a shitty list. Fantasy was a way to go to something where armylist and codex didn't matter as much as thought process and experience. And when they make changes that skew that balance in favor of codex and armylist, then it's just not what most of us came for.

And the 'fixes' aren't balancing the game. Really, to make this more visual, if balance was a large platter on top of a post, with items precariously placed upon it in such a way as to keep it from falling, these fixes throw everything off it, pick up the platter, and use the glue of "Just use high elves and rapemagic" and then stick the platter atop it and dabble items back onto it. It didn't fix anything, it's not smart or creative in it's distribution of power. It's just bad writing and bad foresight.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

This editions faults aside the only real problems I have with the [email protected] book is the way the new boxsets (Savage orcs and Arachnaroks ) are the focus of the book and the way it's set out like a white dwarf buy me now I'm awesome style.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

The 'cannon acting as a template' is indeed a problem, but I feel it's a problem of template attacks themselves, not necessarily with the cannon. Being able to hit everything riding a monster by nicking its base with the side of a template doesn't make sense. 

Also, Skaven benefit too much from being able to place the template in close combats involving their slaves. When it's randomly assigned hits, it isn't so bad. Now they can blow people away while the slaves hold them in place.

...

Back to Orcs: the new box set is indeed terrible. Basically, it's the O&G half of the Skull pass set, only without the characters and troll, and with 15 Orcs and 5 boar riders. 

15 Orcs isn't enough to do crap, and having both boar riders and spider riders in the same list doesn't make much sense. You're better off having twice as many of one or the other. 

All in all, it isn't a good deal, and it's not a good way to start the army. That, combined with the overpriced savage orcs (when you factor in that you're only getting half the models as normal), the model releases for O+G have been pretty bad. The only good one is the HUGE spider.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I'd agree with that assesment. Okay, the boxed sets are bad, only the Spider was worth it... but giving its the army as a whole, theres nothing wrong with new Orcs ruleswise.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I am a fan of O+G. But lets have a look at what Fantasy had over 40K - 

Tactical Movement
Liberal, yet not Overly strong magic
Massive customization potential of characters
Fairly balanced units with the exception of a few needing hard counters.
Characterful but uneeded Special Characters
More about the infantry, or units, themselves, without needing big fuck off centrepiece models.

Now we've got;
Useless Maneuvering and Deployment
Broken Magic Phases swinging from one to the other (either magic heavy or magic shutdown)
Reduced customization (A BRB having about 1 and a half army books worth of Magic Items does not make up for the reduction to 8 specific magic items, of which only certain characters can make use of).
Chaos Warriors/Chosen, Phoenix Guard, White Lions, Greatswords, Skaven Slaves, Eternal Guard, all of which in certain combinations provide near unkillable, (or in the case of Slaves, fucked up rules in a Win Win Win Win situation, let alone Win Win).
Teclis, Caradryan, Gorbad, Throgg...
Arachnarok, 2 Sphinx's, 2 Bone Giants, 1 Giant (fitting 3 Different armies), Steam Tanks, War Altars, and a great many more I can't be bothered to think of right now. 

I'm just waiting for the time when you get units of Archaon turning up in "Storm of Magic", when supported by Detachments of 40 Cannons and commanded by the 169 Grey Seers riding GREAT GREAT Sphinxes which fires Bloodthirsters out of it's mouth.


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## greensaredabest! (Mar 31, 2011)

the new rule book is a definite improvement for orcs & goblins in my opinion. the only thing i can fault with it is the new waaagh! rule, because i'd take extra movement over combat res any day. the fact that there are less ong specific magic items is to gear players towards having more troops rather than tooled up characters or limited elite units. saying that i do miss nogg's banner of butchery and paying 50 points for the spider banner, but these are well compensated for in the new animosity and choppas rules i feel. successful ong units tend to rely on large multiple hordes which although denies the opportunity for diverse tactics (which the tourney players dislike) it keeps in line with the character of the ong army which as a friendly gamer i prefer because despite a horrific losing streak i still enjoy using my army. magic sucks, but its part of the game whether its ruined fantasy or not, so we must grim and bear it and hope enemy wizards don't cast dwellers below too often.


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Its a shame with the O&G book that they shortened the magic items list, as I think it takes away some of the character of the army.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

greensaredabest! said:


> the new rule book is a definite improvement for orcs & goblins in my opinion. the only thing i can fault with it is the new waaagh! rule, because i'd take extra movement over combat res any day. the fact that there are less ong specific magic items is to gear players towards having more troops rather than tooled up characters or limited elite units. saying that i do miss nogg's banner of butchery and paying 50 points for the spider banner, but these are well compensated for in the new animosity and choppas rules i feel. successful ong units tend to rely on large multiple hordes which although denies the opportunity for diverse tactics (which the tourney players dislike) it keeps in line with the character of the ong army which as a friendly gamer i prefer because despite a horrific losing streak i still enjoy using my army. magic sucks, but its part of the game whether its ruined fantasy or not, so we must grim and bear it and hope enemy wizards don't cast dwellers below too often.


Regardless of the rules that the game is now, it has fucked off everything that was enjoyable about fantasy.

I can remember the days when shooting wasn't limited to anything which fell into the boundaries of War Machine, S4 or AP, many of which combine them. I can remember when Taking Ridden Monsters was viable (albeit still a risk). I can remember when I could take nearly any build of magic items, and still be viable in a game. Now, it's like 40K in that you're limited to MUST TAKE COTEAZ, or MUST TAKE CROWE, or MUST TAKE HE'STAN, or MUST TAKE LEAFBLOWER, or MUST TAKE RAZORBACKS.

Except it's MUST TAKE TECLIS, MUST TAKE THROGG.

I'm guilty of falling for it - I run Troll Lists, and I can guarantee, that should a non-generic Yhetee character come out for the Ogres, then I'll be taking it.

However, I only do that in a way, because I'm forced to. Yeah, I can make a stand, and say "I'm not selling out my ideals", but Games Workshop don't give a fuck. I'll play what's the most useful to my army, but it's sickening that I have about 12 regular opponents, and I can guarantee that around 60% of units in the same army lists are interchangeable. That's what is selling out everything that Fantasy goes for.

And as for Orks - Yeah, suddenly, I'm forced to fight Waaagh Gorbad with a big spider, last time it was Night Goblins. Disgusting.

I really think GW need to take a step back from the High Fantasy as mentioned earlier. I'm even trying to redevelop the rules right from scratch - it would require a Ravening Hordes-esque Booklet if GW were ever to do that though.

Step back from the 10 model armies lead by the greatest wizard the world has seen in nearly 6000 years, and go back to actually putting the focus on the armies (and not just the big blocks of infantry to generate sales).

TLR - selling out everything about Fantasy is more than just promoting big infantry blocks to sell models or removing magic items into generic catch all terms, while promoting overkilling magic and pretty models. Instead, it's fairly intangible, and hard for me to explain, but the character it had in 6th edition is just gone, yet the fluff has proven to be of outstanding quality, that I don't think it can get much better without moving elsewhere in the warhammer world (East you fuckers, EAST!). But the rules? They're shot to shit.

On the other hand - 40K rules I do enjoy, yet the fluff is so fucking bone I buy codices just to rip out pages of and shit all over.


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