# who is the stronger primarch, russ or magnus?



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So I have some questions, betwen russ and magnus,which is more skilled in melee combat?

Which would have won on prospero had there been no interference?

Also which is the stronger psyker between the two?

And is russ psyker immune?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Russ is physically stronger and a better fighter.

With no Interferance, i.e. Sisters of Silence, then The Thousand Sons

Magnus is unquestionably the Strongest Psyker. 

Russ and infact all the primarchs had a resistance to direct psychic attack, but Magnus is no ordinary psyker. 

Aramoro


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

How was russ able to shrug off magnus's most powerful psyker attack? I thought magnus stated that he intended to slay russ with it, and then it goes to say it only made russ angrier.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Russ was more resistant than his brothers. All the wolves are.


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

With the exception of the Emperor, Magnus was and now may be, the most powerful psyker that there has ever been. Being created from warp energies, all Primarch were psykers to some extent, but Magnus was in a league of his own. 

I'm pretty confident that if there had been no interference, the Tsons would have defeated the SW, and that Magnus would have bettered Russ. I count the Tsons as one of the more formidable legions, and their Primarch as possibly the most powerful of the lot. Magnus was no swordsman, but when you can rip your enemies to pieces with just a thought, a sword seems a little primitive.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Sir Whittaker said:


> With the exception of the Emperor, Magnus was and now may be, the most powerful psyker that there has ever been. Being created from warp energies, all Primarch were psykers to some extent, but Magnus was in a league of his own.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that if there had been no interference, the Tsons would have defeated the SW, and that Magnus would have bettered Russ. I count the Tsons as one of the more formidable legions, and their Primarch as possibly the most powerful of the lot. Magnus was no swordsman, but when you can rip your enemies to pieces with just a thought, a sword seems a little primitive.



Exactly. Thats why the Silent Sisters were needed. Otherwise it would have been a slaughter, with the Wolves possibly being wiped out.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't even consider it interference. The wolves seemed to be an extension of Russ in a similar way to Magnus and his powers. To Russ they were simply two more weapons. And if you reed it the sisters were only really effectve for a few mins in the opening clash, the TS killed the vast majority after they became aware of their presence. That and the TS were not without allies. That had thousands if not hundreds of thousands of men and machines.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

It all depends. If there were no silent sisters or custodes I think the legions would have almost completely wiped each other out with possibly both promarchs killing each other. Now, had Magnus not gone out of his way to screw up Propero's defences (blocking the Corvidae, dispersing his fleet etc.) I think the Thousand Sons could have destroyed the Space Wolves with relatively little trouble.
As to the primarchs in particular, Russ was definitely a better h2h/melee combatant than Magnus but not nearly as potent psychically. That imo is where Magnus was foolish. He engaged Russ in melee, Russ's strong point, instead of engaging in ranged combat where he would probably have had a significant advantage.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Magnus should have destroyed the fleet in the warp...

The sons would have slaughtered the wolves no problem if it wasn't for the sisters and the custodes. They were highly regarded as one of the the most deadly legions.

I'm still not convinced that Magnus wanted to kill Russ, otherwise why not destroy the fleet or use the sons fleet to counter attact as the wolves were landing, Russ may have been better in combat but by "killing" magnus he offers him a form of vindication, that it was magnus who was betrayed rather than magnus betraying the imperium


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I see it more as Magnus bowing to his punishment for his betrayal of humanity, but hey everyone can have an opinion (though if it's not the same as mine it's probably wrong :laugh.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Sorry to get off topic, I read somewhere ages ago, LONG before the book was announced, that horus intercepted the message telling Russ to bring magnus to terra and told him to kill him, is that still true.

P.S. 1 vs 1 Magnus would of won.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah.... It a big part of the story.
P.S. No it was a fair fight. Magnus had powers Russ had two wolves. And in cc he would have lost.... Kinda like he did.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think Magnus really trained himself for close combat quarters like many of the other primarchs did. Do I think it was a little unfair of the two wolves to jump in... well I would say yes. But out of all fairness I think it was right that Russ win that fight, though I must say Magnus put one hell of a fight. Though I know it doesn't simulate comparing two normal people with two primarchs its like trying to decide the outcome of a fight with a book worm and a savage that tears beasts and people alike. 

Concerning the topic, I would have said that Magnus would have been able to win the battle and perhaps even the fight. I feel like Graham McNeil left something out. Though I did love the book as it is in my top ten fo sho, it seemed a little weird that the Emperor would send the wolves if the Emperor knew how much power Magnus really held. At least in Magnus' eyes it seemed that if he really wanted to destroy the Wolves he would have basically anhilated them in space. At least according to _A Thousand Sons_, Magnus is the cause for the destruction of Prospero... for the most part . Its too bad _Burning of Prospero_ didn't come out right after to settle things a little better. But what the hell, it makes it fun to discuss.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tbh I don't think he could have done it. Each of his psykic attack should have killed a normal man a thousand times over but all they seemed to do was anger Russ, they caused a lot of damage to him but it would seem the more he attacks the stronger Russ became. That and they were unaware their were blanks in the fleet, perhaps that combined with the power of Russ and his legion would have nigated magnus's ability to destroy the fleet, assuming he could do so. That and the emperor might have had the ability to stop him from even making the attempt.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats what I assume, because I'm a little skeptical on what Magnus and Tzteench where thinking over the battle. Tzteench basically says that he could blow up the fleet if he wanted to, but the Emperor and Russ' abilities were pretty powerful. (though it would have taken a great deal of energy to protect russ from that distance)


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Well if the blanks could block Magnus then they would of been flying blind as the navigators wouldn't be able to ... well navigate.


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## ownzu (Jul 11, 2010)

russ
FOR THE WOLFTIME!!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Well if the blanks could block Magnus then they would of been flying blind as the navigators wouldn't be able to ... well navigate.


Navigator chambers are like mini fortresses, in all likelihood they could shield the navigators from the blanks effects.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Do Pariahs really block Navigators? I was under the impression that the 'warp eye' made seeing the warp an intrinsic physical ability, and not a psychic one.

OT- I think there's a lot more to Russ than we know about. Magnus' psychic attacks didn't do what he expected them to do, rather than hurting Russ they pushed him to further beserker rage. Even with all of his magiks, Magnus was pounded. The wolves that helped Russ are an evener- helping to cancel-out some of the advantage Magnus has with his telekinetic abilities; if the Thousand Son Primarch can pick up bits of scenery with his mind, and form weapons out of pure thought, then I think we can excuse Russ having a couple of playmates.
Let's not forget that Magnus lost the fight, and quite convincingly; this does suggest, somewhat, that Russ is the stronger of the two. Or at least the better fighter.

GFP


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

In a omnibus....don't remember one a inq had a blank/navigator deactivated it's blank blocking thing, don't remember what it's called, and the navigator began freaking out yelling that he was blind, etc.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The blanks only have a localised affect, so as long as the blanks stay away the navigators are fine. 

I also don't buy in to the whole horus told russ story, Valdor the emperors right hand was there he would have explicitly known the emperors orders and ensured they were followed. And who sends space wolves to arrest, the 2 legions hated what each other stood for and had a bad history.

just to throw a curve ball, has anyone considered that tzeench may have been protecting Russ? Think about it, the sons would have never turned Tzeentchian if they won Prospero, tzeentch may have helped to ensure that they turned, as even up to the battle and even when they are arrive at the PoS the legion does not know/ talk about the changer of ways, Tzeentch may call it a form of insurance.....


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doubt it, even in the 41st they have an inate resistance to the warp. They would have gone to tzeentch no matter the outcome. If they lost they had no choice and if they won they had no choice, and they were ordered to bring magnus back. The emperor said nothing about his legion.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Well going on a thousand sons,

Russ is almost immune to psychic powers however magnus is able to use a spear of thought etc to wound him.

This suggests that during the combat their minds were being pitted against eachother as well.

To those that say magnus was pwned bollucks

As he fought he held off the entire space wolf army, held them all of on his own with his mind. Thats power, also as Magnus went to strike Russ down, the wolves attacked so hell yeah they had a part to play.

Magnus was far from owned it was a fair fight,magnus shattered his breast plate russ broke magnus's arm.

Russ is slightly stronger in combat simply because he is barbaric and bestial, but Magnus gave him a good fight and could have won it


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Russ broke his back and beat him to an inch from death..... he got his ass whooped. The space wolves weren't going to attack Magnus and it isn't that much power since all he had to do was morph a river if memory serves. RP rip plates in two so it isn't much for him. Also no one said the wolves didn't play a role but tbh it was perfectly fair.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Maybe its the bias of the account but according to ahriman russ lashed out blindly and caught magnus in the eye... i reckon its bias but its probably true he flailed.

Consequentially hitting him in the most vital part will give russ the advantage and yes then he broke his back, but Magnus had him on the ropes before hand. If russ had hit him anywhere else it probably would have been stakes reset occupents in your cornors, game on..

And that wasnt the reason magnus was stopping the army, that was to protect the remenants of his legion.

He turned a river to acid yes,admitedly Magnus is more that your average psyker but i still think sorcery like that takes concentration and attention, you cant just say it was nothing


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Once the molecular structure is altered its a fire and forget thing. Not a big deal for him. maybe a slight challenge for a librarian of higher caliber. TBH in a fight 1 vs 1 without HTH Magnus would have been crushed.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Its quite simple your a space wolf player and im a thousand sons enthusiast, we will never agree until there is a written book that says, magnus would have lost in a fight with russ in bold face etc

Its a pointless argument, and psychic powers are integral to magnus, you may as well tie russ's arms behind his back if your going to start restricting things.

At the end of the day you can say look at the eventual outcome and i can say well if it hadn't been for the wolves russ was fucked.

Both were primarchs superhuman beings russ being more barbaric probablywould have given him the edge

edit what is HTH?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Amounts to a bitch slap contest. Russ wouldn't have his wolves and Magnus wouldn't have the advantage of range. That’s really what screwed Magnus tbh, he let Russ get close enough to hit him.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Thing is, Magnus DID lose a fair, face-to-face fight with Russ. The SW Legion weren't being 'held off' by Magnus in any way. Rather they were stood, open-mouthed, at the sight of two Primarchs actually going head-to-head. None of them, nor any of the Thousand Sons, would ever have got involved because their presence would have been unnoticed, less than gnats in the face of a hurricane.
If we want to make excuses, maybe it was that Russ was the perfect 'anti-Magnus'; then again, maybe he wasn't. We can all be enthusiasts about what we want, but that shouldn't mean that we ignore the stuff that's actually written down. Magnus was beaten by Russ, and quite handily too, even though he gave Russ a bloody good fight. That doesn't mean that the Thousand Sons Primarch or his Legion aren't things we can get excited about, or that this one fight negates all of the badass things that they would have done that we don't know about yet. Our favourite characters all have to lose at some point; it's how they come back from it that gives them depth.

GFP


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Thing is, Magnus DID lose a fair, face-to-face fight with Russ. The SW Legion weren't being 'held off' by Magnus in any way. Rather they were stood, open-mouthed, at the sight of two Primarchs actually going head-to-head.
> GFP


Not true, read the duel of a thousand sons again.

Magnus is holding them off from reaching his thousand sons in the pyramid, he changes the river and various other things. Its not a good excuse but its true.

Plus i dont think the argument they wouldn't have made any difference is true.

Logan grimnar has duelled magnus and survived twice, ragnar blackmane wounded him once as a blood claw, the two wolves made a difference.

Its very simple if the wolves hadn't leapt at Magnus Russ would have died, thus as Magnus wasnt aided by anyone it wasn't a "fair fight"

I've never said throughout this little convo that Russ wasn't more barbaric and more CC orientated than Magnus, i just dont see where from the sources that can be pulled, i dont see where he is getting his ass handed to him. Russ lashes out, blindly and hits him in the eye, the centre of all his power and then hands it to him. If it was a lucky shot, which we wont know until prospero burns, and due to the wolves aid in preventing magnus from placing the finishing blow then i feel quite justified in calling the fight unfair.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh it was a fair fight. Russ had wolves where magnus had psykic powers. Completely fair in my book. And the holding them off wasn't actually putting constant enegry or requireing it from magnus.


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## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

The warp reacts to the will of the psyker. So it would be logical that you could use your power of will to deflect or mitigate the power of a psychic attack. And Russ and his Wolves were described as having an utter determination of will, a singular focus on the task at hand with the exclusion of all else, pretty much if they wanted something done or believed in something(the destruction of Prospero ad the witches on it), nothing can stop them. Russ is the embodiment of this. He may be able to walk through Magnus's attacks by sheer strength of will.

As for who is a better fighter? Russ. Who is more powerful? Magnus.

With no interference with the Sisters of Silence or even the Custodes, the Wolves would still win. The Sons were undergoing mass Flesh-change due to the increased use of their powers. So the longer they fight, they die quicker.


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

When you think about it, there is no such thing as a fair fight. For a completely fair fight it would have to be between two combatants of exactly equal skill in every department, as soon as one fighter begins to excel in one area and the other in another area the fight becomes unbalanced. If two equal people ever fought it would come down to luck, but even there they would be equally lucky, hence cancelling each other out again.

Russ is the superior in CC, Magnus superior at range with his powers, and in my opinion, the deadlier and more powerful of the two. I always thought the point that this battle was so popular was that Russ defeated an opponent who should have defeated him and that's why he's such a liked Primarch; his determination, skill and a bit of luck allowed him to beat a foe he may not have otherwise. 

Also, I hasten to mention there's a difference between a fair fight and fighting fairly.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I still think it was the kind of combat that decided the outcome as imo Magnus was the more powerful of the two. I mean, Magnus is shown on more than one occasion of being powerful enough to take out a titan (first an ork one and then later an eldar one). As far as I know (though I could be wrong) it's never mentioned anywhere that Russ's skills/abilities would have allowed him to accomplish similar feats which clearly shows that in out-and-out raw destructive power Magnus was clearly the more potent of the two. Thus, I repeat that imo it was Magnus's foolish decision to fight Russ in melee that gave Russ the win.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So magnus has more raw destructive power.

One question, was russ's will (latent psyker abilities) to the degree that it nulified magnus's psyker powers?

I think magnus is the more powerful primarch, but rus was his possible match up, with his nigh psyker resilliance...I'm not really sure what you would call it, he fed off of the psyker assaults rather than be outright harmed by it/nullified it.

I suppose russ is the anti primarch primarch?

Does that make the wolves the anti astartes legion?

In the book was not magnus using and stating he was using the full extent of his powers to kill rus? Yet russ only became angried and stronger from them?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It appeared to me that Russ was almost feeding off of the psykic attacks being used against him. Every time Russ was hit with attacks that should have destroyed his very soul, he became more and more powerful. They did hurt him, yes, but it would seem his anger made him more and more resistant.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Magnus's attacks were doing damage but not nearly what he thought they should have. Besides, he was fighting stupidly. When he realised that his powers weren't having the intended effect he should have tried to use the environment around them against Russ instead of attacking him directly. That again is why I say Russ is the better fighter of the two. When it came down to a one on one fight with his brother Magnus wasn't able to adapt quick enough when Russ was and ended up losing when shouldn't have (like I said earlier, Magnus has more raw power). Magnus was too use to being able to obliterate anything with a thought that when it came down to a situation where that wouldn't work and he needed to change his tactics he coudn't.


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## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

Lux said:


> I suppose russ is the anti primarch primarch?
> 
> Does that make the wolves the anti astartes legion?







Dan Abnett on the Space Puppies

"why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist. And that would be, to take down another legion."


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

*It appeared to me that Russ was almost feeding off of the psykic attacks being used against him. Every time Russ was hit with attacks that should have destroyed his very soul, he became more and more powerful. They did hurt him, yes, but it would seem his anger made him more and more resistant.*

I think there is something in this. It's also interesting that the puppies have Wolf Tail Talismans in their codex and the remarks to go with them. The codex states while the Tails aren't imbued with the warp it's the faith that the Fenrisians have in them that is powerful in itself. Almost like the more single minded and angry they became the more resiliant they become to psychic powers. I have just started reading TS and I am eagerly awaiting the juicy conflict bit. Hopefully Prospero Burns will also shed some light on matters. 

With regards to Manus & Russ. Some would call it luck & unfair and some would call it skill & justice. Ultimately you don't get the gold medal for coming second no matter how it happened. 

*"why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist. And that would be, to take down another legion."*

LOL I can almost hear the Emperor saying now "Cry havoc and let slip the Puppies of war". Maybe this is also why they are cut some slack with regards to following the codex. The Emperor doesn't want them to be like other Marines because they suit a purpose for him and become an unknown quantity for other chapters on the battlefield. Maybe this is also why Horus did his best to keep them away from Terra. Maybe his overall plot placed a little too much faith in Magnus and his legion to take Russ and the SW's out?


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

gen. ahab said:


> Tbh I don't think he could have done it. Each of his psykic attack should have killed a normal man a thousand times over but all they seemed to do was anger Russ, they caused a lot of damage to him but it would seem the more he attacks the stronger Russ became. That and they were unaware their were blanks in the fleet, perhaps that combined with the power of Russ and his legion would have nigated magnus's ability to destroy the fleet, assuming he could do so. That and the emperor might have had the ability to stop him from even making the attempt.


Alot of people keep saying that......but remember as Baron Spikey said:



Baron Spikey said:


> I see it more as Magnus bowing to his punishment for his betrayal of humanity, but hey everyone can have an opinion (though if it's not the same as mine it's probably wrong :laugh.


It even says that in the book. Magnus surrendered. Russ didn't win. Magnus let himself be beaten. I still go with Magnus. The Emperor recognized Magnus' and the Thousand Sons strength. Thats why he sent the Sisters. He knew Russ and the Wolves were no match.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He didn't give up, he fought that duel to the bitter end. He wanted the wolf dead. I couldn’t give a shit what Baron said, no offence baron. At that point he was fighting for he legions survival, he was giving his all in that fight. The wolves were going to win a land battle with the Tsons, if you read the book you will recognize that the sisters were only effective for a small part of the battle, the moment their presence came to light the sons eliminated them.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> He didn't give up, he fought that duel to the bitter end. He wanted the wolf dead. I couldn’t give a shit what Baron said, no offence baron. At that point he was fighting for he legions survival, he was giving his all in that fight. The wolves were going to win a land battle with the Tsons, if you read the book you will recognize that the sisters were only effective for a small part of the battle, the moment their presence came to light the sons eliminated them.



I read the book, multiple times. Magnus shuts down the Thousand Sons ability to detect the SW in space. He covers their attack until they begin orbital bombardment, going so far as to even kill his trusted Captain when the Captain finds out the truth. Magnus even states he wished this punishment for his sins. He gives in and allows the attack to happen. He gives up. How can you refute clear evidence. Only once the Thousand Sons are threatened with extinction does he step in to fight, and even then he hold back. He doesn't want to kill his brother Primarch. He wants his legion to escape, but Russ wants blood, like a true barbarian.

Deathbringer also says this earlier in this thread:



deathbringer said:


> Not true, read the duel of a thousand sons again.
> 
> Magnus is holding them off from reaching his thousand sons in the pyramid, he changes the river and various other things. Its not a good excuse but its true.
> 
> ...


and though you may not give a shit what Baron says, he is making a point. A point that can be proved.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Notice I said little to nothing about anything else besides to duel. Magnus wanted the wolf king dead, he never gave up. Those psykic attacks should have, and were meant to, kill Russ. It was clear that he wanted Russ dead. He was holding the wolves off with a river of acid, not Russ. Russ was fighting Magnus, he couldnt give a shit about the Tsons.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

If I remember correctly, at the time ov the battle all ov the psykers had to be careful on how much psychic force they could produce so maybe that effected Magnus's limitation because it seemed like he wasn't using all ov his powers. Definetly Russ is the more stronger. i always liked the Thousand Sons' fall to chaos because they remained loyal and it was such a tradgedy.


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