# Chaos Marines vs Tau or Eldar



## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

Im at a complete loss. I play various lists that seems to fail to put out the firepower to take on a tau list or eldar. I understand it doesnt come all down to shots down range, but tactics and maneuvering too, but cant outplay them. A pair of wraithknights, missile spam from crisis suits, ignoring cover from a trio of wave serpents. I cant find an answer! I typically play 1000 point games and im tied to no particular unit but still cant seem to find an answer. My only stipulation is a modified FoC (1 HQ 0-1 Elite and Heavy, 2 Fast, 1-3 troops), but at the same time tips with a regular FoC would help others too.

Has anyone out there had luck nailing down a tactic or army that works well here? I wont say we are outclassed but I cant seem to see a way to win.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Don't worry, I'm at a loss too, and they're my usual opponents.

Tau, I find, hate large blast templates with lower than AP4 and range longer than 30". Clear out Fire Warriors excellently. So Soul Grinders, Vindis, etc. If the enemy has an ADL to hide their fire warriors behind, bam, they're lined up for a Heldrake's Baleflamer. Blastmasters are also a thing. A very nice thing... especially for IDing Crisis suits and outranging Fire Warriors.

Against Eldar, you have to remove the highest threat units and fast. Blastmaster those Dark Reapers in a ruin and laugh at their cover and armor. When you get the first turn, have your Forgefiend with (allied daemon) Prescience and Daemonforge glance a Wave Serpent to death on its own (before the Wave Serpent can get that jink save). Kill those War Walkers as your first target priority, since they're fragile as hell but can also throw out a shitload of firepower. Possibly hold back Heldrkes until their Crimson Hunter Exarch is on the table, giving you the chance to take it out before it Vector Dancers into your Drake's rear armor and explodes it with ease. Oh yeah, and then there are Wraithknights--honestly, I've found nasty Monstrous Creatures to be the best way to take them down. And allied Lord of Change or Bloodthirster is good, though even a Daemon Prince with the Black Mace can finish off a wounded Wraithknight by himself (as long as he kills it in one turn, because otherwise you have a good deal of S10 attacks moving in on you like a freight train).

Charging combat armies have it very, very tough against Tau, I've basically decided, after having removed 80% of my army by the bottom of T2 enough times (even when getting the first turn with my army designed to have a T2 charge with, well, everything. Guh). Just, like, oh yes, my biker squad is within half range of your Ethereal triple-tapping Fire Warriors who have markerlight BS5. Fantastic. Goodbye biker squad. What's this, your deep striking double plasma Crisis team is dealing another 12 AP2 wounds? *weeps into dice bag.* And if you're not trying for a close combat army, you're what? Trying to outshoot the Tau? Hah. Hah. Hah.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

On the demon prince, I read an army list somewhere where a guy gave him a murder sword just for the wraithknight and other hard hitters. A bit of a points sink, but with the way lists are going, I'd almost advocate for its use


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

In such small games, I'd say give a Whirlwind a try. It's cheap, has good range and the S5 AP4 round will go through most Tau and Eldar Troops. Given the number of Objective games, killing Troops tends to win games. And if you are fighting two Wraithknights than that Eldar player must be using Gaurdians, so the S4 AP5 ignore cover round should make him cry. All that's left is focusing the rest of your firepower on the Wraithknights.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> In such small games, I'd say give a Whirlwind a try.


Whirlwind? Chaos Marines? What?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Well to be perfectly honest the first thing that popped into my mind wasn't how to best approach those armies game wise, but to approach your buddies. Tau and Eldar are this editions cheesefest-armies and it sounds like your playgroup is bringing the lame units in spades. A pair of Wraithknights in a 1k pts game? Are you a competitive gaming group or are your buddies just a little douchy?

My answer would be to try and talk them into cutting down on the cheddar and enjoy a bit of salad instead every once in a while.

If that doesn't work I suggest you go out and invest in some daemons for your CSM. As mossy has already mentioned, Tau aren't too fond of AP3 or lower shooting, especially when it doesn't care about cover. Noise marines and heldrakes are your friends here. 
But the great thing about Daemons is that they can provide some solid support, especially against Eldar. Soul Grinders are pretty good against both armies but less so when the Eldar player is bringing Wraithknights. 
Incidentally, this is where the rest of the Daemon dex shines. Greater daemons (and to a certain extent also DPs) can bring some serious pain to those lame constructs but my personal favorite is a bit smaller: Daemonettes. That's right, these gals mean business. They are cheap, comes in large units and wether you deep strike them in or just run them up the board they tend to get stuck in quickly and due to WS5, lots of attacks and rending it rarely matters what they end up fighting against: If they haven't been shot to hell they will rip their target apart.
Just make sure you have some other threatening units to draw some fire. Damonettes can't really stand up to that much ranged attention so bring a couple of units and some equally hard-hitting distractions. In my mind, the only way to beat Eldar and Tau is to go all in on their positions. If every unit in your army is threatening to overrun them you'll make their target priority more difficult. Also, if they make a bad decision or enough of their shooting whiffs, you should be in a position to crush their important/damaging units with some well placed charges which will often put you in a winning position.

So to sum up: It's all about the pressure. You can never apply too much.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Heldrakes and Noise Marines. Against Eldar, probably better to take the Hades Autocannon as you can get into the rear armour of the Wave Serpents very easily and ignore their serpent shield. Against Tau, bring Baleflamers to make them cry. Imperial Guard allies are pretty awesome as you can bring 3 Griffons as a single Heavy Support choice, or a Manticore if that's more your thing.

Wraithknights are kind of annoying, but not really *that* tough. I'd bring something like:

Chaos Lord with Mark of Nurgle, Lightning Claw and Burning Brand of Skalathrax
5 Plague Marines with 2 Flamers in Rhino
5 Plague Marines with 2 Flamers in Rhino
5 Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns in Rhino
5 Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns in Rhino
Heldrake
Heldrake

Swap out Heldrake weapons as appropriate, I'm not sure if this is a little bit over or not. If you have some spare points, then take a Fist on the Lord - if you need to cut some points, take the Plagues to one ten and one nine man unit in Rhinos.

Midnight


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Glad there's another of these threads going. There's some additional information in my thread titled "CSM vs Tau Gunline."

I recently had my first game against a Tau player the other day. I think there were some mistakes on the rules regarding markerlights, i.e. firing at more than BS1 on snap shots, adding more than 1 BS with the markerlights (not sure if this is legal or not) and so on. 

Regardless, I got obliterated. Half of it was stupid deployment on my part, the other half was the HOLY FUCK that's a lot of saves I have to make, combined with bad rolls on my part.

I didn't even want to play the game past turn 2, but waited until turn 4 to surrender, because I figured it would be a little bitch move to surrender without losing the majority of my army.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

venomlust said:


> Glad there's another of these threads going. There's some additional information in my thread titled "CSM vs Tau Gunline."
> 
> I recently had my first game against a Tau player the other day. I think there were some mistakes on the rules regarding markerlights, i.e. firing at more than BS1 on snap shots, adding more than 1 BS with the markerlights (not sure if this is legal or not) and so on.


There is a wargear that allows snaps shots to be taken at BS2, but it must be bought in the armory. 

Also, assuming the Tau player gets enough marker light hits, he can make a unit become BS 10 if he/she really wanted to.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Good to be clear about the rules now, thanks. Damn blue bastards!


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> Whirlwind? Chaos Marines? What?


Oops. Could have sworn CSM had them too. My bad.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

aaaaaaaarrrrrgghh: completely agree on the cheese of tau and eldar, don't think anyone would argue otherwise. My friend runs a double wraithknight, but only in a competitive list. We aren't amazing, but try to hone our skills off eachother. He is actually laid back.
Your points stand though. All very good ideas. If I'm playing strictly chaos marines with no allies it will be fairly difficult, but once my drakes come in I can press my assault. 
archon: No whirlwinds, but still have frag missiles, Vindicator, plasma cannons, flamers, etc. We can still rock out the templates, even if it isnt as well as your example.
Midnight: I think overall we tend to think of the helldrake with the flamer only, but the autocannon idea sounds like the way to go. I have never played one before, well worth playtesting. 


Getting in close will be my tactic, but doing so without taking a great deal of wounds is another thing. Huron or a slaanesh lord on mount for outflanking is all I can think of off the top of my head

Question for everyone. I love the brand and see it as another ap3 torrent template I can throw in, but how useful have you guys found it?


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

CE5511 said:


> Question for everyone. I love the brand and see it as another ap3 torrent template I can throw in, but how useful have you guys found it?


Two shots at best and then the bearer dies. If you are good in unit placing and focus your fire well, or screw the enemy target priority, then he might be able to fire three templates before he gets stuck in cc wich would be your best dream. All in all very good for outflanking/deepstriking kamikaze lords/sorcs or harassing biker Hq's.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Best option you can take for anyone except a Khorne Lord. Ap3 Torrent is seriously good. Back it up with a Lightning Claw or Power Fist, but when you take the Brand you become a serious threat in more than just the assault phase.

Midnight


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

So yeah, resurrecting this thread a bit as I've recently had my first 2 matches against Eldar. The player is a nice guy first of all, and he is a good sport. However, he is used to playing against competitive opponents so he's got it hardwired to bring the best of the best.

Currently we have only played 750 points, and so far he has brought a Wraithknight, a Flyer and 2 x squads of Jetbikes with a farseer in one of them every time. I got completely and totally owned.

If I go for the Wraithknight, I get shot down by everything else. If i ignore him, he blasts me to smithereens. I'm not quite sure how to handle such a unit at 750 point games, especially with a flier as well.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

That army seems really kind of shitty - sure, you can't deal with the Wraithknight effectively, but why would you? Run away like a little girl and gun for the fragile Jetbike squads, without which the list falls over.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> Run away like a little girl and gun for the fragile Jetbike squads, without which the list falls over.


Well I tried this, but each time I get remotely close, they run away and the Wraithknight shoots the guys trying to kill them. As I wrote in my post, I tried two approaches and either got my blasted.

I'm trying to figure out how the damn I get the mobility to get those jetbikes.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Nordicus said:


> I'm trying to figure out how the damn I get the mobility to get those jetbikes.


With Blastmasters and Heldrakes. Who needs mobility when you have 48"+ range and ignore all their saves?


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## DarkDisciple_Nahum (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm going to have to agree with midnight here... blastmasters and more blastmasters. I have tried havocs kitted out with 4autocannons and a rhino with havoc launcher, which did great against everything but the wraithknight, and a defiler (which did not do as bad as I had anticipated), I know they are over-priced but they get me results. You just can't get enough range to out gun them so you have to run and fire... Next game I'll take some oblits to try to help. I have no noise marines, as I've never really cared for them.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Have you considered Forgeworld options in any of your lists? They certainly can bring a lot to bear on an opponent, the only niggle with them is their price tags.

A Chaos Contemptor dread is a scary site to behold, is damn hard to kill and packs a hell of a punch againt mechs and MCs. It can also be given in-built heavy flamers on it's CCW to spread hurt to that gunline.

Dreadclaw's might be great to give to a Noise Marine squad or suitably kitted out marines. An all AV12 flier that deepstrikes and can transport ten guys can be very effective at getting your enemy's attention to his backfield.

Storm Eagles and Fire Raptors are beasts of fliers, and Storm Eagles can actually carry 20 guys into the fray.

Spartan Assault Tanks: These things are monsters, and their price (both real, and points-wise) reflects it. With a 25 (!) unit capacity, Abbadon, Typhus, and ten of their Termi buddies can go rocking all over the board. 

Other than this (which really may no help at all) I can give no more advise. Plenty of great tips have been given by veterans like Mossy and Midnight.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Since I don't nor ever will play those Panzy CSM Armies I really cannot tell you how. As far as tactics when fighting Tau slipt your forces in 3rds and use a "Bull Horns" manuever.

Your Heavies/Elite forces go Left and Right and fire while moving on the flanks. Your vehicles and Heavy Weapons/Light Units/HQ hold the center and deny the enemy a group field of fire. Use the "Horn" units to do flanking damage; then collapse in upon the enemy and split them up. Upon this maneuver commencing usualy the turn after I rush the Center units right up the middle. In this way you not only draw the Tau's attention and deny them clear fields of fire, but you also by critical time of Melee units to close the distance down the Center/Horns.

Mind you this Tactics has only worked against Tau, and Imperial Guard who do not take a lot of vehicles. I cannot help you for Eldar, rarely fight them, only their evil cousins


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