# I can't Become a Daemon Prince



## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone knew why Abaddon hasn't become a Daemon Prince. (Setting aside the fact that his is Failaddon). He's has been the Warmaster of Chaos for 10,000+ years and is favored by all of the Chaos gods-So why has he not accended?

This also sort of goes for the other Heresy Traitors (Lucius, Typhus, Bile, Kharn, Arhiman). Why arn't they Princes?
The Primarchs became Princes and all they do is hide in the Eye of Terror.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Maybe only 1 at a time????

Lucius, Kharn, Typhus and Ahriman have their own "special chaos club"


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Alot of them choose not to become deamon princes as it would severly limit what they could do in the material universe. Angron, a deamon prince primarch made it to Armageddon, but even then he had to erect monuments to the gods to keep his power going and even then he still became weaker the more he stayed outside of the Eye. In the event that Abaddon did succesfully get his crusade past Cadia and into the Imperium propper, he wouldn't want to be limited to how far he could go


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Anfo said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knew why Abaddon hasn't become a Daemon Prince. (Setting aside the fact that his is Failaddon). He's has been the Warmaster of Chaos for 10,000+ years and is favored by all of the Chaos gods-So why has he not accended?
> 
> ...


Well the Primarchs reside in the EoT now (for the most part) taking part in the far more important, in the eyes of the Chaos Powers, Great Game and they did actually perform feats of importance to achieve their Daemonhood.

The Brothers in Darkness (my favourite alternate name for the Chaos Gods) are capricious in the extreme, a follower might sacrifice a bunny and become ascended whilst a mighty Champion who has secured thousands of victories for the Gods (like Abaddon has) will be passed over.
Plus it might be a case of the Gods deeming the mentioned Champions too useful as mortal pawns to grant them immortality- they have daemon hordes a plenty, but they want to dominate real space as well and for that they require mortals to enact their will.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Why the heretic Abaddon has not become a Daemon prince? The question should be, why did Horus not turn into a daemon prince?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Anfo said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew why Abaddon hasn't become a Daemon Prince. (Setting aside the fact that his is Failaddon). He's has been the Warmaster of Chaos for 10,000+ years and is favored by all of the Chaos gods-So why has he not accended?


Well in the case of Abaddon, he has done more than enough to have earned daemonhood. However he does not want it, not until after he succeeds where Horus failed and casts what remains of the Emperor from his throne on Terra.

Also, how exactly is he a failure? Considering all that he has accomplished, some things time and again, during his thirteen black crusades and other incursions into imperial space. Really doesn't seem like much of a failure.



Anfo said:


> This also sort of goes for the other Heresy Traitors (Lucius, Typhus, Bile, Kharn, Arhiman). Why arn't they Princes?
> The Primarchs became Princes and all they do is hide in the Eye of Terror.


As for the champions of the gods, it does nothing to the great game. By making someone a daemon prince, you in essence make them part of the warp. Creatures of the warp cannot survive in real space, not unless the fabric of reality is weakened or compromised or they have a mortal vessel to anchor them.

Being a daemon may have its benefits, but a price must be paid.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Well in the case of Abaddon, he has done more than enough to have earned daemonhood. However he does not want it, not until after he succeeds where Horus failed and casts what remains of the Emperor from his throne on Terra.
> 
> Also, how exactly is he a failure? Considering all that he has accomplished, some things time and again, during his thirteen black crusades and other incursions into imperial space. Really doesn't seem like much of a failure.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

Also, congratulations on 4000 posts! :victory:


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

As has been speculated it is probable that the Chaos powers see more use in their pawn as a mortal rather than a DP.

DP's although able to command great power.... suffer the simple fact they are creatures not native to our Universe. If Failaddon was to become a DP, technically speaking he would become easier for the Imperium to manage... okie dokie he is a DP now... second he starts a new Crusade... lets send every GK we can find at the bugger... ok great banished for 10,000 years. That saves the Imperium, lets rebuild some nice fountains and a new Admin building... 

Although the above is simplified, the weakness of the DP compared to a mortal pawn infused with power is obvious.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sadly, daemonic banishment in the 40k universe is not so simple. Yes you can banish a daemon for some period of time, but they are banished back to the warp. The one place where time is fickle.

A daemon may be banished to the warp for a thousand years, and return the next day. Why? Because its possible that for the daemon it has been a though years. On the other hand its possible that said daemon returns ten thousand years later, because time is not guaranteed to be straight forward in the warp.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Edit: I'm a fucktard and accidently just Ctrl+V'd over my post and saved it...

However don't fear! It was just a variation on one of my previous posts in another thread: Link.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

What if they have given the aforementioned chaos people gifts.

Lucius has his "if you kill me and feel anything in any way about it, i steal your body and soul" power, could be a gift.

Kharn has been killed before but "magically" revived by unknown means, he also is immune to the effects of psychic powers.

Typhus was gifted with the full power of the destroyer plague and is home to the destroyer hive.

Ahriman doesn't really acknowledge chaos as his master, so no gifts for him.

Fabius bile believes in science and not chaos, so no gifts for him either.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CotE said it pretty much perfectly, but on the topic of Ahriman, i believe there is another reason he remains ungifted. 

In DoW Temperst it is revealed by the Librarian Jonas (who seems to know quite a lot about the sorcerer, hmmm...) that although Ahriman refutes that he himself is a servant of Tzeentch, his attitude and deeds serve the change god more wholly than many others that would otherwise dedicate themselves to change.

The gods may be fickle, but they are not stupid. If a servant can do more as a "free" man, then it would be logical to let him remain so. 

Remember, the Chaos gods feed on emotion and deed, not necessarily direct worship and service.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> CotE said it pretty much perfectly, but on the topic of Ahriman, i believe there is another reason he remains ungifted.
> 
> In DoW Temperst it is revealed by the Librarian Jonas (who seems to know quite a lot about the sorcerer, hmmm...) that although Ahriman refutes that he himself is a servant of Tzeentch, his attitude and deeds serve the change god more wholly than many others that would otherwise dedicate themselves to change.
> 
> ...


this i can agree with, from my reading of various books, fiction and otherwise it appears to me that they seem more keener on subjects (or victims dependng on your point of view) who have strong wills and although serve chaos do not become sychophantic with it, Ahriman and Fabien being cases in point. 
I suppose nothing is more fulfilling to a chaos god then a servant who does not call on him/her for every little thing and would prefer to use thier own judgement. Free will to them is a tasty little morsel that imho they can sit back, get a cup of coffee and watch the mayem that ensues even if the said subject is doing it for thier own reasons, ultimatly they wittingly or unwittingly further the cause of the powers of the dark.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

If you're going to ask why four great mortal Champions of Chaos aren't DPs, you should also ask why Erebus and Kor Phaeron aren't DPs. I don't recall those two having killer Chaos Powers like the former four, either. This is especially interesting considering Erebus and Kor Phaeron are the mortal heads of a large, powerful, and active Chaos faction, one that's fanatically loyal and constantly recruiting, while the "big 4" with the best powers are all loners who lead, at best, trivial and ragtag warbands.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

randian said:


> If you're going to ask why four great mortal Champions of Chaos aren't DPs, you should also ask why Erebus and Kor Phaeron aren't DPs. I don't recall those two having killer Chaos Powers like the former four, either. This is especially interesting considering Erebus and Kor Phaeron are the mortal heads of a large, powerful, and active Chaos faction, one that's fanatically loyal and constantly recruiting, while the "big 4" with the best powers are all loners who lead, at best, trivial and ragtag warbands.


They are word bearers, orators without equal. Their persuasive ability and machinations have turned many to the cause of chaos (such as nine fucking legions of astartes) and to become daemons would restrict their freedom to continue this.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> They are word bearers, orators without equal. Their persuasive ability and machinations have turned many to the cause of chaos (such as nine fucking legions of astartes) and to become daemons would restrict their freedom to continue this.


They why haven't they been awarded some superpowers in line with their station, like Typhus or Lucius have? How about some surpassingly powerful Chaos artifacts like Drach'Nyen?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Who's to say they have not been gifted in some way? The likes of Erebus and Kor Pheron are able to sway whole armies by their words alone, make legions do their bidding. Are you so certain they are not aided in some way?

A gift of the gods can be a subtle thing; your very words can carry greater power.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

randian said:


> They why haven't they been awarded some superpowers in line with their station, like Typus or Lucius have? How about some surpassingly powerful Chaos artifacts like Drach'Nyen?


How do you know they haven`t? A cursed crozius is a daemon weapon, Both of them still command armies and have for millennia. Isn`t the fact that they continue to hold such high rank and esteem proof enough that they hold the gods` favour?

And as Reever said, a gift need not be blindingly obvious for it to work.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and to highlight a comment made earlier.....erebus and all the Dark Apostles are gifted orators nothing can beat that one. be interesting to see a debate between jeremy paxman and erebus...bet i know who would come out on top and it ain't paxman lol


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Really, Paxman is bad ass!

Ahriman thinks he isn't serving Tzeentch but it is probably all part of Tzeentch's evil plan so that he is actually serving Tzeentch but just doesn't know it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmm, i was sure in one of the older Chaos Space Marine codexes it stated that Abbadon had passed over the chances to become a deamon prince. Don't have my older codexes here with me though


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmm, i was sure in one of the older Chaos Space Marine codexes it stated that Abbadon had passed over the chances to become a deamon prince. Don't have my older codexes here with me though


I don't remember reading anything like that apart from in _Codex: Eye of Terror_ where an Imperial Scholar theorises that is the only plausable reason why Abaddon hasn't ascended into the warp, but that is obviously just the ramblings of a random Imperial.

It's a similar situation to Horus. Both arch-commanders of the XVI Legion have been Warmasters of chaos, yet neither have ascended to daemonhood (well that we know of anyway, the extent of Horus' chaos empowerment is unclear - although unlikely that he was entirely ascended to daemonhood). I think if anything this points to what Baron said as being the most logical:


Baron Spikey said:


> Plus it might be a case of the Gods deeming the mentioned Champions too useful as mortal pawns to grant them immortality- they have daemon hordes a plenty, but they want to dominate real space as well and for that they require mortals to enact their will.


Or of course that we just can't comprehend their logic.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Ahriman thinks he isn't serving Tzeentch but it is probably all part of Tzeentch's evil plan so that he is actually serving Tzeentch but just doesn't know it.


Sure, Ahriman's actions are probably serving Tzeentch. However, the same can be said for pretty much everyone else in the galaxy. It's really ALL part of one of Tzeentch's many twisted and complicated plots. Ahriman doesn't dedicate himself to god because he seems to be more interested in trying to turn *himself* into one.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

True, but Abaddon clearly hold the favour of the four gods, i don't think it would be a massive leap for Abaddon to have requested not to be elevated to a deamon prince so that he can better wage his war outside of the Eye. As we all know, the gods work in their own ilogical ways


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

If the gods had turned Horus into a DP then who knows how the battle between him and the Emperor had turned out. I mean, it was a close call for the big-E as it was. If Horus had been turned into a Daemon Prince then I'd say Chaos would have seen victory that day.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I dunno, this is still the Emperor we are talking about, likely the most powerful pysker to have ever lived. He was holding back massively in the fight against Horus, still believing he might be able to turn him back. For all we know if Horus had become a deamon prince, the Emperor could have walked in, seeing him as a deamon realised straight away it was too late and obliterated his sorry ass right there and then, coming out better than the actual fight.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Gluttoniser said:


> If the gods had turned Horus into a DP then who knows how the battle between him and the Emperor had turned out. I mean, it was a close call for the big-E as it was. If Horus had been turned into a Daemon Prince then I'd say Chaos would have seen victory that day.


Not necessarily. Daemon Princes have to maintain a constant connection to the warp in order to remain manifested within the material realm. The Emperor might have found it easier to sever such a connection rather than having to destroy a mortal host to daemonic powers.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gluttoniser said:


> If the gods had turned Horus into a DP then who knows how the battle between him and the Emperor had turned out. I mean, it was a close call for the big-E as it was. If Horus had been turned into a Daemon Prince then I'd say Chaos would have seen victory that day.


I don't know. The only reason Horus was able to do so much damage was because the Big E was holding back because he was hoping Horus could still be saved. If Horus had pitched up as a daemon prince, the Emperor would have seen that there was no saving him and unleashed hell from the beginning.

Edit: Wow ninja'd by two people. Though AoB's response is more similar to mine.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't think that Horus being a DP would have made his battle with the Emperor any easier. If anything it would have made the Emperor's job easier. 
It was the hope that there might still be some humanity left in Horus that led to the big E taking as much damage as he did. If Horus had arrived as a Daemon Prince then the Emperor would have turned him into toast in an instant.
In the end, for Chaos to win Horus had to lose. 
The Chaos traitors may have wanted to see the destruction of the Imperium but I think the big fours plans went much deeper. The Emperor was trying to destroy religion and superstition, not good for the Chaos Gods. 
By allowing the Imperium to survive without the guiding light of the Emperor religion and superstition were reborn, the Chaos Gods like this very much!


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> In the end, for Chaos to win Horus had to lose.


Yes, Horus was a tool. (and yes, I chose those words specifically)

The guy the chaos gods genuinely seemed to have an interest in, Lorgar, is still very much alive. Makes you wonder what he's actually doing while he's "meditating". Obviously it must be something, because the chaos gods probably wouldn't let him sit on his ass and do nothing for 10,000 years unless there was some reason behind it.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

The Chaos Gods doesnt want the end of the Imperium to happen, look how they enjoy the wars the Imperium is bringing them. The ones who wants the Emperor dead are the traitors.  Its like the big game, it never ends.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Abaddon isnt a DP yet because he was taught a vital lesson from the emprah! - "Just say no to daemon hood kids!"


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Interesting side note: All the major players that haven't become DP's are obviously immortal or damn close considering that even with the eye of terror's time dilation all of them have to be pushing 600+ years old.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Interesting side note: All the major players that havent become DP's are obviously imoortal or damn close considering that ven with the eye of terror's time dialation all of them have to be pushing 600+ years old.


He's not a DP, but I'm not sure that Typhus, as host of the Destroyer plague, is even biologically human (to the extent that all Astartes are basically human at their core) anymore. He is certainly the least human of the four. Even a regular Death Guard marine isn't so transformed.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Sadly, daemonic banishment in the 40k universe is not so simple. Yes you can banish a daemon for some period of time, but they are banished back to the warp. The one place where time is fickle.
> 
> A daemon may be banished to the warp for a thousand years, and return the next day. Why? Because its possible that for the daemon it has been a though years. On the other hand its possible that said daemon returns ten thousand years later, because time is not guaranteed to be straight forward in the warp.


That's not true at all. When a daemon is banished for a Thousand Years (or some other long period of time) that is fixed in real space terms. It cannot occur in 'a day' because time works differently in the Warp.

The Daemon might experience a longer or shorter period (perhaps), but in real space it is a very fixed and definate date, as alot of Grey Knights and Inquisitors etc have books detailing when Great Daemons will reappear and when, or what the signs will be etc.




Hooobit said:


> Fabius bile believes in science and not chaos, so no gifts for him either.


It's not that Fabius doesn't 'believe' in the Chaos Gods, because he's a science guy. It's more that the Chaos God's hold no real interest for him. He is still very aware of Chaos' existence and will use it when necessary for his experiments.




Angel of Blood said:


> I dunno, this is still the Emperor we are talking about, likely the most powerful pysker to have ever lived. He was holding back massively in the fight against Horus, still believing he might be able to turn him back. For all we know if Horus had become a deamon prince, the Emperor could have walked in, seeing him as a deamon realised straight away it was too late and obliterated his sorry ass right there and then, coming out better than the actual fight.


I have a huge feeling this is going to get retconned in the Horus Heresy Series. 

The whole, 'the Emperor was holding back' gambit is a bit outdated. 

So the most powerful Primarch, infused with the powers of the Four Gods of Chaos, cannot face the Emperor without having him tie one of his hands behind his back?

Doesn't really work for me. 

(Unless the Emperor was actively seeking Godhood? If you want to admit that, ok he held back  but then Horus and the other 'traitors' where right to rebel against him.)





Chompy Bits said:


> Yes, Horus was a tool. (and yes, I chose those words specifically)


Tool of the Chaos Gods? No he wasn't particularly, although there was an element of that.

Tool in a negative sense, i.e. idiot? Give me a freaking break.




forkmaster said:


> The Chaos Gods doesnt want the end of the Imperium to happen, look how they enjoy the wars the Imperium is bringing them. The ones who wants the Emperor dead are the traitors.  Its like the big game, it never ends.



Rubbish, the Chaos Gods do not work like that at all. They don't sit around and be happy the Imperium is existence and that Mankind should breed lots and lots more souls for them.

The Imperium exists, they want to corrupt and destroy it. End of Story.

However you are somewhat correct that they are no no longer that interested in it, as the Emperor is gone.




LukeValantine said:


> Interesting side note: All the major players that haven't become DP's are obviously immortal or damn close considering that even with the eye of terror's time dilation all of them have to be pushing 600+ years old.


Not necessarily Immortal, just incredibly powerful Chaos Champions in their own right.

They are the equivilant of Heralds of their respective powers.

Could they be defeated? Yes they could, but GW and fiction n general doesn't work in such away that would allow that to happen.

But in strict, by the numbers fluff, they could theoretically be defeated.


Phew, I'm tired after all that writing.

Hope that helped some people understand things more clearly.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Tool of the Chaos Gods? No he wasn't particularly, although there was an element of that.
> 
> Tool in a negative sense, i.e. idiot? Give me a freaking break.
> 
> ...


The more the HH series continues the more it at least seems that Horus was used by the Chaos powers and Lorgar, or even Erebus and Kor Phaeron. He was the one in the spotlight but the real power was held by the clever ones who stayed in the background. 

If the Chaos Gods wanted the Imperium dead it would be, they have virtually unlimited power and, if they chose to, they could wipe the Imperium out in a heartbeat. 
Chaos has nothing to gain from the extinction of mankind, they need the faith and superstition that humanity provides. If they didn't need it why would they have challenged the Emperor in the first place?


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> The more the HH series continues the more it at least seems that Horus was used by the Chaos powers and Lorgar, or even Erebus and Kor Phaeron. He was the one in the spotlight but the real power was held by the clever ones who stayed in the background.
> 
> If the Chaos Gods wanted the Imperium dead it would be, they have virtually unlimited power and, if they chose to, they could wipe the Imperium out in a heartbeat.
> Chaos has nothing to gain from the extinction of mankind, they need the faith and superstition that humanity provides. If they didn't need it why would they have challenged the Emperor in the first place?


The Gods do no thrive as much on worship then that they do on emotion and deeds


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

The chaos gods have massive amounts of power in the warp and the eye of terror, the further they go from the eye of terror and the longer they spend out of the warp (providing there isnt some unholy shrine) the weaker they become.

the best chance that the Chaos gods have of destroying or severely wounding the Imperium is if the Primarchs actually rally the legions and go on the march, Failbaddon can sit and play with cadia whilst the other 8 or 9 (depending on how you view the whole "missing legions" concept) legions go and play fuck the Imperium in its ass. 

The Imperium is being attacked from all sides by orks, Nids, Tau, Necrons, dark elder and to a lesser extent regular elder, they couldn't mount a big enough deffense against the full extent of the Traitor legions without leaving themselves vulnerable to the other attackers.

As far as the game goes, having a couple of interesting characters without the daemon prince stats is good for everyone, If GW made all of the upper tier Chaos characters daemon princes then all non-Chaos players would be butt hurt (and rightly so) whilst the Chaos players would have a group of characters who are essentially the same (well with some minor differences). 

Not to mention that it devalues what the worhty current Daemon princes did, they betrayed their Farther, Tried to kill him and destroy everything both they & he worked to create. I think that should be the baseline for becoming a Daemon prince, and unless I'm mistaken Failbaddon has yet to really do any of those things, the best he seems to do is get his dick out and wave it at Cadia every couple +100 years or so.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Gluttoniser said:


> The Gods do no thrive as much on worship then that they do on emotion and deeds


The actions of the Chaos Gods during the Heresy would suggest that they at least need superstition and belief to some extent or they wouldn't have needed to challenge the Emperor.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Hooobit said:


> the best chance that the Chaos gods have of destroying or severely wounding the Imperium is if the Primarchs actually rally the legions and go on the march, Failbaddon can sit and play with cadia whilst the other 8 or 9 (depending on how you view the whole "missing legions" concept) legions go and play fuck the Imperium in its ass.


That's....pretty much what Abaddon is already doing. He's pretty much the only one that can unite all 9 Traitor Legions and the one that the high lords fear the greatest at the moment. Read Dark Creed, the Word Bearers flat out admit that they can't refuse him at all.



Hooobit said:


> Not to mention that it devalues what the worhty current Daemon princes did, they betrayed their Farther, Tried to kill him and destroy everything both they & he worked to create. I think that should be the baseline for becoming a Daemon prince, and unless I'm mistaken Failbaddon has yet to really do any of those things, the best he seems to do is get his dick out and wave it at Cadia every couple +100 years or so.


You are mistaken, on both accounts. There existed daemon princes before the Heresy (Doombreed) and they are typically elavated for whatever the gods feel like.

And no, Abaddon's Campaigns against the Imperium are much more than ''waving his dick at Cadia''. First of all detailed information on most of the Black Crusades is limited in what actually happened or tactics employed.

We know the first Crusade was appearantly turned back at great cost. The Gothic War (The 12th) ended in a strategic draw with the entire sector being devastated and the 13th ended with a large chunk of Imperial space being taken by Chaos with conflict being expected into the following centuries.

Eye of Terror: Final Newsletter.



> The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Just to clarify immortal mean not subject to death or decay; having perpetual life, I was not arguing that they are invincible just not subject to any natural life span.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Tool of the Chaos Gods? No he wasn't particularly, although there was an element of that.
> 
> Tool in a negative sense, i.e. idiot? Give me a freaking break.


The chaos gods were manipulating him the whole time, using him as a means to strike out at the Emperor. Sounds like a tool to me.

And btw, the term 'tool' as an insult doesn't necessarily mean 'idiot'. It can mean someone who's is being manipulated, someone who's potentially naive or ignorant with regards to the big picture. It doesn't have to mean that they're stupid.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> I have a huge feeling this is going to get retconned in the Horus Heresy Series.
> 
> The whole, 'the Emperor was holding back' gambit is a bit outdated.
> 
> ...


Still disagree, again the Emperor is the most powerful psychic being to have existed, he was/is a very real threat to the Chaos gods. His power doesn't know a hell of alot of limits, i mean i can't remember any other recorded incident of someone else obliterated someones very soul and being like the Emperor did to Horus. If they change the fact that he was holding back i'll be very annoyed.



D-A-C said:


> Tool of the Chaos Gods? No he wasn't particularly, although there was an element of that.
> 
> Tool in a negative sense, i.e. idiot? Give me a freaking break.


He really was their tool, a pawn, just one piece on the great twisted chessboard of theirs.




normtheunsavoury said:


> If the Chaos Gods wanted the Imperium dead it would be, they have virtually unlimited power and, if they chose to, they could wipe the Imperium out in a heartbeat


I disagree that they could wipe out the Imperium in a heartbeat, their power isn't virtually unlimited in real space, they have severe limits in how much they can achieve and the Imperium, whatever people may think is still incrediably powerful and full of some of the best armies in the galaxy


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> The actions of the Chaos Gods during the Heresy would suggest that they at least need superstition and belief to some extent or they wouldn't have needed to challenge the Emperor.


Wasn't it jealousy that made them fuck the emperor over? I could be wrong here...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think it's because Abbadon believes that he alone, unaided by the direct intervention of the Chaos powers can achieve what he seeks to accomplish.

I believe he's only on Chao's side because they are the only force he can rely on to defeat the Imperium he's come to despise and finally put an end to the Emperor who _betrayed _him and his father.

Eventually he began to despise Horus (I believe the Chaos-turned Horus not when he was the Emperor's right hand man) and that's perhaps in part due to how he became essentially a thrall to the powers as he bore all four traits of the pantheons during his battle with the Emperor. Perhaps he believes he's become the Horus he used to adore and by remaining an Astartes, he keeps that memory alive.

Abaddon has always believed in the superiority of the Astartes even prior to the death of Horus and I think he's just an old school soldier at heart and for him to become a Daemon Prince, you'd take that last remnant of Horus and the glory days of the Astartes and what they represented away.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I believe he's only on Chao's side because they are the only force he can rely on to defeat the Imperium he's come to despise and finally put an end to the Emperor who _betrayed _him and his father.


Abbadon was a willing fool, he never had any evidence of that betrayal other than the conspiratorial whisperings of Chaos. One would think that such an explosive accusation would require more than "because I said so".

Abbadon is far too corrupt by now to sustain such a purpose. It's all about the joy of killing, just like every other Chaos Champion.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

randian said:


> Abbadon was a willing fool, he never had any evidence of that betrayal other than the conspiratorial whisperings of Chaos. One would think that such an explosive accusation would require more than "because I said so".
> 
> Abbadon is far too corrupt by now to sustain such a purpose. It's all about the joy of killing, just like every other Chaos Champion.


abbadon was always held as one of the greatest of the first captains in the crusade and what i found interesting when i read horus rising, fallen gods etc was how much he adored horus, his brothers in the mournival and his leigon, his loyalty was to his primarch, his mournival brothers, leigon and emperor in that order i suspect.
also when horus began his descent into madness the knock on effect it had on abbadon and others. Horus became weak in his eyes and lost the strength and character that made him his lupercal, and if rumours are to be believed, his clone father. 
Abbadon is still a warrior without peer, he does not care who follows him, he does not care if they like him or loathe him, worship him or despise him as long as they fear him and thats the point. he thrives on the fear his name brings.
in one part of horus rising loken muses that the imperium would be a sad place without the likes of ezekiel abbadon protecting mankind and people would cry for his return....strange that when his name is mentioned now the last thing they want is his return.
he is not a failure, he got two (i think) of the blackstones, pushed the limits of Cadia and although he was defeated the next time he comes from the warp he might just push a little bit further like a wolf testing the limits of the caravan camp. he knows it is there for the taking its just a matter of time before he does.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

randian said:


> Abbadon was a willing fool, he never had any evidence of that betrayal other than the conspiratorial whisperings of Chaos. One would think that such an explosive accusation would require more than "because I said so".
> 
> Abbadon is far too corrupt by now to sustain such a purpose. It's all about the joy of killing, just like every other Chaos Champion.


_“Because I have nothing else. I was born to fight, and forged in the fires of war. I am Astartes. I fight because it is right that we fight. The Emperor abandoned the Great Crusade, and demanded humanity pave the way for his ascension to godhood. I don’t expect to topple him from the Golden Throne, but such hubris, such evil, must always be opposed.”

“The Emperor betrayed my gene-father. Even without the Great Heresy’s ideals, the need for vengeance alone would be enough for me to live my life only to see the Imperium fall.”_

From Soul Hunter.

Chaos didn't really do anything when it came to this particular perspective of the Emperor


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Chaos didn't really do anything when it came to this particular perspective of the Emperor


Of course it did. Who other than Chaos claimed the Emperor was "paving his way to godhood" or abandoning the Great Crusade? There is naught but the whisperings of the daemonic in evidence for either proposition, and the Crusade continued for many years after the Emperor stopped personally engaging in combat.

As for a Champion of Chaos calling anything evil and claiming to be on the side of righteousness, such a pretense of virtue is hypocrisy indeed.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

randian said:


> Of course it did. Who other than Chaos claimed the Emperor was "paving his way to godhood" or abandoning the Great Crusade? There is naught but the whisperings of the daemonic in evidence for either proposition, and the Crusade continued for many years after the Emperor stopped personally engaging in combat.
> 
> As for a Champion of Chaos calling anything evil and claiming to be on the side of righteousness, such a pretense of virtue is hypocrisy indeed.


Chaos just sealed the deal. A lot of the Primarchs already were pissed off about the Emperor deciding to call it quits so he could, in their eyes, sip on some kool-aid at the Palace while Horus and the gang carved out an empire for him.

Chaos couldn't get to Horus for example until they stabbed him with an alien sword which really messed with his Primarch physiology but the paranoia, the doubt was already embedded in Horus when the Big E decided to retire. He never told *any* of the Primarchs what he was up to at the palace (the Webway Project) so a lot of them came to the conclusion that he honestly wanted them to do the dirty work for him and that he just used them as tools and never loved them as the fatherly figure they so desperately wanted him to be. Chaos didn't need to interfere when it came to these realizations, the Big E's seemingly careless decision making did all the work for them. 

And for the Primarchs who barely had a decent relationship with him (Angron, Mortarian, off the top of my head), what other conclusion could they come up with in terms of what the big E was planning to do other than became the imperiums new icon of worship.

Abaddon and a lot of the primarchs/astartes saw the Emperor's retirement and his decision to elevate regular humans to positions of power as an abandonment of the tenets of the Great Crusade and it was an insult to them as Astartes that they should obey mere humans. So to them, they truly believe they are on the right side, they fight to destroy a tainted version of the Imperium they used to willingly serve. Now that they have become corrupted by chaos, they don't fight to restore order or to bring back their utopian version of the imperium but rather just to destroy it out of spite and perhaps regret at what they've become.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

randian said:


> As for a Champion of Chaos calling anything evil and claiming to be on the side of righteousness, such a pretense of virtue is hypocrisy indeed.


Not if you believe that good and evil are simply points of view. 
What the Emperor was preaching to the masses was a lie, whatever his reasons were his Imperial Truth was founded on dishonesty. Those that turned to Chaos, for wahtever reasons, saw what they were fighting for as the real truth. So, from their point of view at least they were 'good' fighting against the 'evil' that the Emperor represented.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Not if you believe that good and evil are simply points of view.
> What the Emperor was preaching to the masses was a lie, whatever his reasons were his Imperial Truth was founded on dishonesty. Those that turned to Chaos, for wahtever reasons, saw what they were fighting for as the real truth. So, from their point of view at least they were 'good' fighting against the 'evil' that the Emperor represented.


I forgot to add, the big E used to tell everyone that there were no 'great beings' out there that existed, no gods or entities of mythology that humanity used to worship.

When Lorgar and a few others found out, it's like they just snapped because if such a central tenet of the imperium, there are no gods and science > all, was a lie then nothing else is true.

Though I think they're retarded for not seeing why the Big E. would do everything in his power to deny humanity from knowing of the chaos powers, Lorgar especially.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I forgot to add, the big E used to tell everyone that there were no 'great beings' out there that existed, no gods or entities of mythology that humanity used to worship.
> 
> When Lorgar and a few others found out, it's like they just snapped because if such a central tenet of the imperium, there are no gods and science > all, was a lie then nothing else is true.
> 
> Though I think they're retarded for not seeing why the Big E. would do everything in his power to deny humanity from knowing of the chaos powers, Lorgar especially.


short sighted maybe but then to a man and his sons of such staunch and firm belief in the emperor seeing that he had told a big fat news of the world tabloid like lie that would be enough to tip them over the edge. they had thier faith shaken to its very core. The emperor, the most powerful being in thier world and the most important man in Lorgars life lied to him so his descent into madness made him take his revenge on his father by turning his favoured son. 
when it comes to something like that its hard to see what was good intentions behind the lie.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The shit was always going to hit the fan. You can't build a galaxy wide empire based on lies and deception, no matter what your intentions were.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> The shit was always going to hit the fan. You can't build a galaxy wide empire based on lies and deception, no matter what your intentions were.


What lie?

The Big E lied about the Chaos Powers yes but obviously you can see why. 

If they were benevolent and kind then yes I can see why Lorgar and a few others would be pissed about him denying their existence.

But they were far from it


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, i find it curious as to why none of them seemed to question why the Emperor would attempt to keep the existence of the Gods secret from them all.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What lie?
> 
> The Big E lied about the Chaos Powers yes but obviously you can see why.
> 
> ...


but that still does not excuse him in the eyes of lorgar and the others. The emperor showed in my opinion that whilst he was happy to let his sons and "grandsons" sow the seeds of the imperium and destroy what was not human he was not so keen to share the knowledge he had, not even with those closest to him. 
i wonder if he had if things had turned out a little different and by those actions of a so called open and loving father if he did not have his own agenda as horus and lorgar and the others claimed. 
its ok son you go further my empire by whatever means but you can't ask me about that .... yeah ok the effects are obvious but at the end of the day the emeperor didn't even trust his own sons.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gothik said:


> but that still does not excuse him in the eyes of lorgar and the others. The emperor showed in my opinion that whilst he was happy to let his sons and "grandsons" sow the seeds of the imperium and destroy what was not human he was not so keen to share the knowledge he had, not even with those closest to him.


The Emperor has no equal and not even the Primarchs come close to being his equal.

He was in essence a father to them, he taught them everything they knew.

Would a father tell their naive children about monsters and other complex things they wouldn't understand because they're young and lacked the experience and wisdom?



gothik said:


> its ok son you go further my empire by whatever means but you can't ask me about that .... yeah ok the effects are obvious but at the end of the day the emeperor didn't even trust his own sons.


It's not a matter of trust. It's essentially why tell your children of dark, evil beings who you know will never aid you or be kind to you. 

The Emperor dealt with the Chaos powers *directly*, he and he alone knew how utterly evil they were and no one else in the universe, dare I say not even the Eldar, can make such a claim as directly speaking with them and coming out intact or knowing them as intimately as he does. 

He realized that the only way of combating or pushing them back was to make sure no one knew of their existence. Once Lorgar did thanks to Erebus and Kor Phaenon, found out about the Chaos powers, the Imperium became what it is now.

Even now the majority of the Imperium have no idea that the Chaos powers exist, if the knowledge of their existence wasn't harshly suppressed by the Inquisition then the Imperium would have collapsed thousands of years a go.



gothik said:


> i wonder if he had if things had turned out a little different and by those actions of a so called open and loving father if he did not have his own agenda as horus and lorgar and the others claimed.


His only agenda, or at least as far as we know, is that he wanted to complete the Webway project so that humanity could travel the stars instantly and without the threat of the Warp preying on them.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

What got me was that when the Primarchs made their discoveries of Chaos, none of them bothered to actually go and talk to their father about why he kept it from them. Instead they all immediately set him as the enemy and ascribed wickedness to his motives. I imagine this last was helped immensely by the whining of little men and cowards, not to mention the subtle workings of the dark gods themselves.

Abbadon, currently, is in the best position he could ever hope to be. He has the favour of all 4 gods; ascending to daemonhood would mean he has let one god become his patron, thus losing the powers the others gave him, or he is an undivided daemon, which is probably worse as it is just a compromise.
He still controls the largest network of Chaos Astartes. He knows the Lords and leaders, knows the honour debts owed and the motivations of his followers and allies. He also has virtually nothing to fear from daemons, using them as pawns, cannon fodder and tools, probably regarding them (or at least those below the ranks of Herald or Prince) as lesser things than lowly cultists.
Abbadon knows that he can't take on the Imperium and win. He'd damage it beyond repair, certainly, but the forces of chaos in the Eye would be utterly burned up. There would be a rump-Imperium left, but there would be something to build on and hold. There would be tiny, scattered groups of Human Chaos worshippers who would be of absolutely no consequence.
BUT, Abbadon is also in the best position viz the corruption of the Imperium. He is _the_ bogeyman, the icon of ruin and death. Feints and the destruction of tiny, isolated, meaningless worlds are magnified by the minds of any who hear about it into the actions of one who cannot be stopped or opposed. The only way to avoid being sacrificed by the forces of Chaos is to join them. Maybe by burning down our own world we can avoid the wrath of the Despoiler? Right? Right?
Daemon Prince would be a step down for this bad boy.

GFP


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Emperor has no equal and not even the Primarchs come close to being his equal.
> 
> He was in essence a father to them, he taught them everything they knew.
> 
> Would a father tell their naive children about monsters and other complex things they wouldn't understand because they're young and lacked the experience and wisdom?


So what? Keep them ignorant for all eternity? That would never have worked. The truth would have come out eventually, and it did. The primarchs were traveling all across the galaxy, how could at least one of them not realise that something strange was going on.

And also, even if the primarchs had followed his orders blindly, what about the rest of humanity? He might have thought that his 'perfect' sons would always remain loyal but what about the regular humans? We saw that a number of planets rebelled during the Great Crusade because they knew what the Emperor was preaching was BS, as their experiences before being united with the Imperium had shown them. 

Take Cadia for an example. If someone had pitched up with the Imperial truth, do you honestly think those inhabitants would have thought "hmmm... clearly everything we've believed and experienced are obviously lies or figments of out imagination. Gods, daemons? Please... we've obviously been wrong all along." I doubt it.

You can't honestly tell me that he planned to have a 2,000,000 planet wide empire who's fundamental principles and beliefs are false and expected it to last. As we saw, secrets, especially ones of that magnitude, are impossible to keep.

Edit: Oops, I just realised after my last posts how ridiculously off topic I've gone. My apologies. Back to the daemon princes.


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