# Daemons of Chaos Help



## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I am interested in starting Daemons of Chaos as an additional army that I can play in 40k as well as in WHFB, I can found a good article (by Midge) of unit breakdown and gifts for 40k but cannot find much for fantasy. All I know is that Herald of Tzeentch with Lore of Life made my life hell in the last game that I played and I really like the models.

Has anyone good any good insights into the book that they'd like to share to get a new Daemon player?

I am aware that in 8th edition they're not as strong as they were in 7th (thankfully) 

Also from my understanding the Battalion, Herald of Tzeentch and a Box of flamers would be a good place to start a 1k army for approx £100 which looks like a bargain to me.

That and I really want to paint most of the range (esp Slannesh & Tzeentch daemons)

So yes tactical advice and a breakdown would be very much appreciated. 

Ta


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Lords- don't bother

Heroes- depends almost entirely on your core since the heroes are best used to buff the units with their passive abilities. Blue Scribes and Skulltaker are both solid regardless of your army.

Core- horrors are immense, especially if you shove in a life herald. Bloodletters are the combat option but again work better with heralds (skulltaker isn't a herald so won't give them their hatred, but can go in any god's units). PBs and daemonettes are much less powerful, although I love a good slaaneshi army since it has so many more tricks to pull (which is why I normally opt for slaanesh/daemonettes for my WFB daemons).

Special- flesh hounds are amasing, screamers have their uses (but aren't that good), nurglings are either loved or hated (I think they are amasing) and seekers are kinda specialist and probably better best avoided till you know the army better (or just permanently).

Rare- flamers will be pretty much all you need... but if you did want to try other things then fiends are excellent flankers and crushers are nice hammer units if you pore enough points into them... beasts are a joke... a bad one.


my quite 2 cents, hopes that helps.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

Cheers for that Tim/Steve, your advice as usual is short and succint.

I'm getting the Battalion, Herald of Tzeentch and Flamers on Tuesday. So should be able to cobble up a decent 1000 list from that, I'll also be visiting Bits and Kits's website for some additional bodies ect to flesh out the purchase a little.

I definately want larger units of the Horrors and the Daemonettes, the Bloodletters can stay in a unit of 20-30 since they're really for taking on Heavy Infantry I wont need that many (I hope). I love the Seekers models and definately want more (Maybe another Battalion) and try and convert 10 Letters into Plaguebearers as I'm sure I saw a decent tutorial on how to do that somewhere, only concern is that I want the army to be able to play in 40k as well so have ot build with that in mind (although I want Furies) 

With any luck now I have a pay rise at work ([email protected] finally) I should be able to complete a long labour of love on a cross over WHFB-40K army so may have to look into magnetising the models to the bases.

I do love Nurglings, I seem to have a weak spot for Swarms (I have 12 Bases of Snotlings) so that'll fit in well and I understand they're a decent speed bump in 40k .

Heroes wise I think Heralds of Tzeentch and Slaanesh will be my calling and rare I do love the flamer models and like the idea of Fiends and Crushers.

So it seems my Gods of Choice are Slaanesh and Tzeentch with a small Khorn presence


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Lords:

kairos is broken and unbelievable if played right to the point he is banned in competitive play, like Teclis. The thing is he gets to pick spells from the common magic lores (4 lores for each head asnd must choose which head to use at the beginning of each magic phase) and always knows all the spells in the daemonic lore of Tzeentch, to re-roll one D6 per player turn (to avoid a miscast, improve on a dispell attempt, or re-roll a ward save), is a lvl 4, and has a 3+ ward save. Very high S attacks, even a S10 cannon, must roll a 3+ wound. He also costs a lot but can just get in a 25000 point army. He weakneses are terrible combat ability and being T5, instead of T6. 

In a war machine-heavy environment and with the limits on protective items they may carry, unless you can count on protective terrain (obstacles, impassible terrain and buildings that count as impassible terrain) we are seeing very few armies playing the greater daemons. The exceptions are Bloodthirster with say obsidian armour and the Keeper of Secrets with the Spirit Swallower. 

The keeper has access to under-rated daemonic lore of slaanesh spells and has the speed, ASF with high initiative, and armour piercing to really take something on. You have to be very careful and pick your fights with the keeper because he is vulnerable to daemonic instability tests on lost CR. I play a keeper at lvl 2 and with spirit swallower and screen him with a larger unit of fiends because Monstrous infantry can stop cannonballs with the ward save and if ther cannonballs roll 2 or less on the multiple wounds roll. I also tend to put the Keeper into combat with a bloodletter horde with a champ and herald of khorne to take challenges because the Keeper is best killing stuff where he keeps restoring his wounds with spirit swallower. 

The bloodthirster is a classic combat chararcter but vulnerable to cannons. His MR(2) and ward save makes it hard to kill him with magic. Obsidian armour is great because of the 3+ AS and negating magical weapons. Immortal fury (re-roll to hit) is important in ensuring that the hits in combat count and kill. A BT needs ACR to overcome losing SCR very often. Axe of Khorne and firestorm blades are worth considering but remember dameonic cc attacks are magical automatically, very useful against ethereal and similar units and characters. 

Great Unclean One is good if Epidemus is allowed to be played. Epi has a special rule that causes all poisoned attacks to autowound on to hit rolls of 4+ once nurgle daemons have caused 8+ unsaved wounds. If the greater daemon has the breath weapon he can cause that many wounds in one turn on a rank and file unit and then all rolls to hit of 4+ by all nurgle models auto-wound. GUO gets reg, which means he saves on 4+ if not flaming and 5+ if flaming. The large number of wounds of GUO (10) makes him much harder to kill but you should never take it for granted. An extremely killy GUO will carry balesword (all hits autowound and cause D6 wounds). Noxious vapours (enemy models lose ASF and also have ASL), slime trail, soul hunger, and stream of bile (S4 breath weapon). There are also some very good spells in the daemonic lore of nurgle (including miasma) well worth taking by upgrading the GUO to lvl 2. 

The lord of change is worth taking for magic. However, you have to upgrade him to lvl 4 to get full value or else take twin heads (+2 to casting). Tzeentch's will is worth taking because it allows you to re-roll a single D6 per turn allowing you to roll out of a miscast or re-roll a spell or attack to get a spell off or hit or wound off. Master of sorcery is great for taking lore of life.

Daemon Princes: These guys are rarely played. While cheaper than the greater daemons, they have to pay a lot to get to lvl 1 and 2 wizard levels and must also pay to buy a mark of a chaos god in order to access the desired daemonic lore. Without a mark, they can access fire, deth, metal or shadow. They also can only buy up to 75 in daemonic gifts. They also are only S5 and T5 with 4 wounds, where the greater daemons are S6, T6 and have 5 wounds for three and 10 wounds for one. Since these guys are played and playable in 40K, they can be considered in a daemonic "casual" army or to offset complaints about running 2 units of 6 flamers. If run, consider no mark with lvl 2 lore of shadow or no magic at all, unnatural swiftness (ASF) or immortal fury (re-roll to hit), soul hunger 9re-roll to wound in first round of combat), etherblade (no armour saves), winged horror, and many armed monstrosity.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I tend to play a mix of Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khrone in my Daemon Armies. 

Heroes
These guys are fairly cheap but the locus abilities are ace, with the focus on big blocks of infantry in this edition I would look to having 1 herald per core unit. Tzeentch Herald is a solid choice but Slaanesh get Siren Song which is just rude (I once Siren Song'd my opponents 40 Halberders into a Boiling Flood, I felt kinda bad about that) . 

Core
You Core should match your Heralds and vice versa. 

Pink Horrors - They're robust with a 4+ Ward and have some annoying magic pew pew but they're a bunker unit for your caster really. 

Daemonettes - Really solid anti light infantry killer. They can chew threw units larger than themselves, with WS5, and 2 attacks, with ASF you'll be getting lots of hits but unfortunately only S3, these guys should be used to mince your opponents core units. 

Bloodletters - These are you anti-elite troops really. WS5, S5 means decent hitting and less saves for your opponent, with Killing Blow a nice bonus. They only get Hatred in the first round from their Herald making the Khorne Herald one of the weaker ones in terms of buffs. 

Plaguebearers - A lot of people are really down on these guys but they're still S4 and T4 which counts for a lot, give them Regen with a Herald and they make a solid anvil block. The Herald is a bit over costed for what he does though sadly. If you trick them out with their magic standard and a decent herald you can give people a nasty shock when they think they're just terrible infantry. 

Special

Flesh hounds - These guys are immense really. Move 8 with S5 and 2 Attacks at WS5 make these one of the best flanking units in the game. 

Nurglings - These guys are slow but the are Scouts which plays in their favour. Just a little bit weak for their price I think

Screamers - Never found a great use for them really. 

Seekers - Incredibly fast but that's about all they've got going for them. They get to Vanguard and march 20" on your first turn so they'll be right in about your opponents back field instantly. But they cost plenty and fairly weak attacks.

Rare

Flamer - These guys are as close to broken as unit gets I feel. They can march 12" and vaporise small units, and even Stand and Shoot unlike everything else in the game with ItP. They are only WS2 but at S5 with 2 attacks each they're non-trivial to deal with. 

Fiends - These guy are excellent flanking units, move 10 like the Seekers but lacking the Vanguard or Fast Cavalry rules makes them slightly slower than Seekers but they are much tougher to kill. 

Bloodcrushers - They're mighty tough but they only have 1 wound which puts me off entirely. 

Beasts of Nurgle - They really got the short end of the stick when it comes to being good. They are tough I guess.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I will note i am playing in an empire/badlands campaign with three armies led by three different greater daemons and massacred an Ogres army with two ironblasters by using terrain and larger fiend units to screen and protect my Keeper of Secrets and to restore lost wounds on keeper with spirit swallower. 

Heroes:

This is the hardest choice because with the tendency to not run greater daemons because they cannot join units or get look out sirs, you end up often running heralds as you general, BSB, and primary magic offense and defence. Thus, you end up making compromises and choices to stay under the points limit for heralds. 

Skulltaker is awesome as a special character. He can combo with the changeling in a horrors unit to kill characters. 

Epidemus is awesome if you are wiling to commit to a nurgle army with GUO and plaguebearers as units. 

The Masque is also interesting but vulnerable. 

The heralds are not overwheling for two reasons: first, the heralds can only join units with the same mark of chaos and those are limited. Herald of Tz primarily should only join flamers and horrors. Herald of Khorne should only joint bloodletters or be mounted on a jug and join bloodcrushers (which are quite expensive and not worth their points). Herald of Nurgle joins with plaguebearers. Herald of Slaanesh only joints daemonettes. 

Herald of Tzeentch is the most flexible to employ. First, they can take master of sorcery to access any common magic lore and know all the spells. Second, they have a 4+ ward save and confer it to the horror unit they are int. Third, they can taking flying (winged horror) to allow them to fly out of units, hide or move around to make them good BSB's. Finally, they can take spellbreaker (dispell scroll). Thus, they are almost mandatory for magic offense and defence and most useful as BSB's with lore of life and hiding behind other units in a horror unit or with flamers (max size is size so they have limited look out sir protection). The problem is lvl 2 is not a lot of magic offense and defense, so we often see a HoTz BSB with the sundering banner to reduce the opponent's lvl 4's casting by -2. 

Herald of Khorne is extremely valuable with bloodletters by amking bloodletters have hatred. Keep him out of combat because even with armour of khorne (3+ AS) and 5+ ward, he can get killed. Soul hunger and firstorm blade are the two most common weapons taken. 

HoN is still good with noxious vapour and stream of bile or soul hunger. The palaquin with noxious vapours can be an effective combo with the pal having a lot of cheap. low strength poisoned attacks. He does give his unit of plague bearers 4+ regen. In 7th edition, you got both the ward save and regen save such that HoN made a greater BSB. Now, that is no longer the case and I find myself often running a unit of plaguebearers without the HoN. 

HoSlaanesh-Underrated but played less that KoK and HoTz. ASF, four attacks, high I, and AP at S4 can make this an effective character but the T3 and 5+ ward is a serious problem. She gives a unit of daemonettes ASF. She is best used in a small unit of daemonettes with siron song. They have M6, so they can march out to just barely charge range and force a failed charge on a unit/model that exposes its flank or messes up the timing of the modl/unit and opponent's seet up. I'm not impressed with the choice of daemonic gifts after siren and maybe would take a cheap torment blade (enemy model wounded cannot strike back if it fails a LD test). With siren beign a one-trick pony


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Changling + Skulltaker is hilarious but opponents tend to only fall for it once.

Also a fun fact, Daemonic Gifts are not unique. Though many tournies rule that they are.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Core:

Bloodletters in horde formation are most effective and efficient with their WS, I, and S5 and KB. They are considered an elite unit to the point that ETC limits the unit size to 30. We are seeing 40 to 50 model Bloodletter hordes run almost mandatorily with a HoK (often at the end to keep out of combat or decline a challenge to go back). But the T3 is a problem. If you can get flesh to stone from lore of life or the beasts signature spell off, it is huge. There are certain matchups where the bloodletters simply do not do that well. Opponents will often throw chaff units at bloodletters to try to slow them up, expose a flank (where you lose the supporting attacks) or set them up. The icon of endless war gives an extra D6 on the charge and is worthwhile. I once destroyed a bloodletter horde with a horde unit of witch elves because the witches had higher initiative, hatred, more attacks, poison and killed so many bloodletters that the horde could not kill enough on the strike back and, thus, lost ACR and SCR and crumbled with daemonic instability. 

Horrors: They get 4+ ward with a Herald of Khorne and get spells to cast. I find that they are best left as a baby sitting unit for the HoTz and maybe with changeling and skulltaker run only 5 models wide. I have seen people running up to 30 of these in a comped tourney to get a lvl 4 wizard for magic defense and to absorb more magic and shooting damage. When run as a larger unit with a single HoTz and not much else in the army able to cast, icon of sorcery is worth taking. 

PB-As Aramoro said, these guys are under-rated. In 7th edition, they got both regen with the HoN and the 5+ ward and T4. S4, T54 with poison is nothing to sniff at. i run this unit often without a HoN six wide and five ranks deep with full command. The icon standard of seeping decay is huge with T4 allowing this unit to re-roll to wound. I often use this unit as an anvil unit and try to get flesh to stone on it if not needed for the bloodletter unit. 5+ ward and T6 or T8 makes this unit hard as a round and poison allows the unit to get through tough stuff. The weakness of the unit is M4 (can't keep up with faster units) and the low initiative 1 and modest WS3. 

Daemonettes are coming back into favour due speed, M6, to multiple attacks-2, AP and ability to gain ASF with HoS. The problem is S3 and T3 doesn;t do a whole lot. Thus, they are best going after lighter units (fast cav, skirmishers) and siren songing something you need to slow down or set up for a charge. Siren song as a banner on the unit is really useful against armies with shooting units, fast cav, and skirmishers (can't stand and shoot and must hold). Banner of ecstacy is excellent because if the BSB is in range, this unit will then hold on the first turn of combat as is is tough to kill 10 daemonettes and the HoS with a 5+ ward and high WS for some models. I have seen people run the herald out and use the daemonettes with the ecstacy banner to tied up something that threatens other units and set up a charge. 

Chaos Furies: do not count as core points. I find that these guys are vastly under-rated and essential. They can initially screen your horrors or bloodletter units from BS shooting. They are annoying chaff units that can be very flexible because of their flying and skirmisher status. Thus, they can redirect an enemy unit and set it up for a charge by bloodletters or something else. The only problem is they cannot flee. The will take out normal war machines with S4 and I4 allowing them to hit first and effectively (although their WS 3 could be better) and they cause fear. They often can deal with chaff units. I typically take two units of 6 at 2500, my son takes 3 units of 6 or even 2 units of ten. The biggest drawback of this unit is its LD 2. With LD 2, the unit either needs to be in range of the general or avoid losing CR (pick its fights) because it will crumble if it wiffs in combat.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Special:

The army has weaker special selections. Given the strength of core and rare and heralds, we often see armies with no special units. 

I personally like flesh hounds. They are fast (M8, I4) and hit very hard (WS5, 2 attacks at S5). They are a bit vulnerable to shooting but get a 2+ ward to most magic missiles and direct damage spells (very annoying for magic-heavy armies). They are used best to deal with skirmishers, scouts, and fast cav and to go after war machines. Since they are war beasts, they will suffer to stomps and thunderstomps. Thye also are not skirmishers and cannot have musicians, so you must wheel them well. They should not go into combat with something with a lot of SCR and are best used to get into a flank if possible. 

Screamers: S3, T3 and 1 attacks for flying, slashing attacks is not worth it. They ahve only 1 wound each. 

Nurglings: These are worth considering because of their ability to scout, skirmish, and poison attacks and WS3. You rarely see these units unless you have a special ability to generate nurglings with a GUO or otherwis by magic. 

Seekers are similarly too expensive for what they do. Fast cav is great for shooting and bait and flee. But seekers cannot shot and can't flee. Bascially, you are paying twice as much per model for a daemonette on a very fast mount with an S3 poisoned attack. So, you gain a weak attack, a 6+ AS, M10 over M6, and fast cav (ability to free reform). We see this unit run, including with a HoS mounted but not very often. There are too many better choices.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Rare:

Bloodcrushers: With the new monstrous cav rules, it was thought that a unit of these with a HoK general on a jugg would be very good. Unfortunately, they did not make it so that the look out sir with monstrous units was at 3 units and these guys are expensive and best run in a single rank. The fact that each wound gets 2 wounds and a decent 4+ armour save helps and they really do hit hard with stomp, 2 attacks by rider at WS5 and S6 and KB and the jugg having WS5 and S5 with 2 attacks. The second rank loses the jugg's attacks. They also have MR(1) which is good for the HoK. However, I have found that this unit often gets shot up by cannons, mortars, doom divers, and AP shooting far too often. With T4, a deep-ranked infantry unit can remain steadfast and wear this unit down quickly. If they had 3 wounds instead of 2, T5 instead of T4, or an armour save of 2+ instead of 4+, then these guys would be worth playing consistently. 

Flamers: This unit is the most points efficient unit in the army book. The ability to have skirmishers with M6 and D6 S4 shots with range of 18" each at BS4 (no penality for move and shot either). The max unit size is the only compensating factor. A unit of 6 of these guys can march up to 12" with multiple turns with the free reform to an opportune point to shoot and then pump out an average of 21 shots hitting on 5's at long range and 4 at short range (assumming no cover or skirmisher or other penalty) with S4 and flaming. It is one of the units hydras and varghulfs really fear. These guys also have 2 wounds each with S5 and T4 but have a low WS2. Skirmish means that they can march and shoot and reform for free to get into odd angles and avoid charges. The only thing is the tournaments often limit you to one unit of these or opposing players will sometimes give you bad game votes if you max out with two units of 6 of these guys. Furthermore, a HoTz BSB with flying can join this unit, get a look out sir until 2 of the six die and benefit from the skirmisher rule. Because they are ITP, the enemy can kill 5 of the 6 and get no VPs if you hide the last guy. I've run a HoTz BSB with flying with either the (chaos glory) stubborn banner (Daemon bsb'S can take gifts and a daemonic icon/banner) or the banner (despair) that nerfs enemy leadership by -2. The stubborn banner is expensive but so good and unfair. It makes your units within 12" of the BSB almost immune to instability tests and losing combat such that some tournaments will reject the banner in an army or ban it. 

Fiends of Slaanesh: M10, I6, 3 wounds, and 4 attacks with AP at S4 makes these guys great. They also get to stomp infantry and war beasts. First, they can be run as singles and can deal with chaff units and also act as superior chaff units/redirectors. They can chase downan and kill fast cav and skirmishers. They can quickly threaten war machines (especially in pairs). They can hit a flank or rear and help win combat both with their attacks and with the flank or rear bonus. However, with T4 and only the ward save, they are vulnerable to shooting and magic attacks. I either run them singles or in pairs unless I have a greater daemon general. With the greater daemon general I will sometimes run them as a unit of 3 wide or 4 in a 2x2 unit (two chances to stop a cannon ball) if I see cannons and similar stuff on the battleflied. With a cannon hit, there is a 1/6th chance of no wound, if wounded then a 1/3 chance of the ward save, and if no ward save then a 1/3 chance that the cannonball rolls a 1 or 2 for the number of wounds and thus stops before hitting the greater daemon. Running a 2x2 block with cannons in fixed positions provides two chances of avoiding a cannon hit on the general getting through and rolling a 5 or 6 or an unsaved wound against a keeper, Lord of Change, or Bloodthirster. 

Beasts: These guys used to be worthwhile in 7th edition when you got both the 4+ regen save and the 5+ ward save,. Now, T5 with regen is not enough for this expensive model unless you have an Epidemus army. Worse, yet, the number of poisoned attacks is random and the attacks are only S4 with WS3 and the I is 1. 

Well, I shot my bolt on this one.


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