# Who is Matt Ward and why does every one hate him?



## Tarvitz210300

i dont know who matt ward is and looking around the forum he sounds like satin


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## Doelago

The author of Codex: Space Marines and Blood Angels, hated for playing Ultramarines.


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## Wusword77

HE came up with wonderful gems of fluff, like BA teaming up with Necrons and every space marine chapter wishing they could be Ultramarines.

Those are the 2 main reasons everyone hates him.


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## Abomination

I don't why he's so hated. I mean the guy brought us the StormRaven. That thing is such a beast it's very use in battle should be ruled a war crime.


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## Tossidin

Didn't he write the Chaos Daemons book for WHFB? 

Also, the Gehenna campaign (which Wusword77 reffered to), with necrons teaming with BA against the tyranids. Well, after the battle the necrons were too "battleworn" to fight the blood angels, and the blood angels had taken too many casualties..... well, need I say more? 

Raping fluff, Goto style!


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## Doelago

Yes, teaming up with Necrons, absolute bullshit. He had been smoking and drinking to much just before he wrote that piece of shit...


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## bitsandkits

nothing wrong with necrons and blood angels teaming up against a suitable enemy, hell if the USA hadn't teamed up with France you would have all been living like civilized people right now rather than the ******** you are.

To be honest I dont hate Matt, does not even register on my radar and to be fair to the man he shouldn't register on anyone else's either, dudes just feeding his kids and keeping himself warm, his codex's are far better than any of the codex's produced by anyone on any internet forum, people can take this hobby far too seriously sometimes and alot of misdirected anger.

If you read a codex/battle report/fluff article just remember its only there to make you buy more stuff, you need more stuff, you dont have enough stuff and never will, when you think you have enough stuff, they will revamp the stuff or release new stuff, its all about the stuff and getting more of it, its not about not having the stuff, stuff is everything.
Buy more stuff.


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## Stella Cadente

bitsandkits said:


> nothing wrong with necrons and blood angels teaming up against a suitable enemy,


yeah nothing wrong with that at all...except everything about it being wrong on so many different levels, fuck it you may as well just have Khorne teaming up with sisters of battle at that rate and then just say one were the yanks one was the frenchies.

nothing wrong with the fact codex SPESS MAHREENS was going to be codex Ultrasmurfs until someone other than him realised that was the most retarded decision anyone could ever make.

and he gave rules for the stormraven...that alone isn't bad no, but those rules gave someone a reason to sculpt that piece of shit, meaning it was his fault to start off with.


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## Cruor99

Tossidin said:


> Didn't he write the Chaos Daemons book for WHFB?


He did indeed.



> Raping fluff, Goto style!


He did indeed.


Basically, the Codex: Space Marines is so full of ultramarines fanwank you could easily mistake it for a fanfic. Which it is. 

From a WD around the time of the release: 



> The Ultramarines are the most famous and respected of all Chapters. It was Roboute Guilliman who created the Codex Astartes and in so doing saved humanity from despair. Ever since, the Ultramarines have been at the heart of the Imperium's defence. The Ultramarines do not rule a single planet or space fortress as the vast majority of other Chapters do, but have dominion over an entire empire known as Ultramar. The worlds of Ultramar are so well governed that they are seen as utopian societies in comparison to other Imperial systems and regarded with jealous eyes by planetary governers elsewhere, who constantly strive against rebellions, civil unrest and high rates of crime.
> The Ultramarines fight across the galaxy, as Imperial Commanders and fellow Chapters constantly call upon their expertise in warfare. In battle they are eminently proficient and highly flexible, guided by Guilliman's tenets of battle-craft to this very day. As the Imperium slowly decays around them, it is the Ultramarines that lead the fight and refuse to let Mankind's enemies win.


And some more assorted quotes 


> ...the Ultramarines 2nd company – the finest fighting unit in this and any other Space Marine Chapter.





> ...the Ultramarines can boast the most skilled marksmen of any Space Marines Chapters...





> ...Tigurius will have proven himself the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.


And there are many, many, many more examples of why the C:SM is a piece of fanwank. 

It also garners a lot of unwarranted hate towards the Ultramarines who are in themselves perfectly fine. If you ignore the current Codex's fluff.


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## Djinn24

bitsandkits said:


> nothing wrong with necrons and blood angels teaming up against a suitable enemy, hell if the USA hadn't teamed up with France you would have all been living like civilized people right now rather than the ******** you are.


What the hell is up with the anti American crap that has been happening on the forums in the last week? Several posts now have had this same type of unprovoked crap added to it. 

OP: Basically he shows to much love to the Smurfs and has written some fluff that has been disagreed upon.


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## Quozzo

> ...the Ultramarines 2nd company – the finest fighting unit in this and any other Space Marine Chapter.
> ...the Ultramarines can boast the most skilled marksmen of any Space Marines Chapters...
> ...Tigurius will have proven himself the most powerful psyker in the Imperium.


So they're the finest fighting force, the most skilled marksman and have the most power psyker! clearly not the most modest chapter though.


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## Khorothis

Read these; they are far from objective but they cover the subject from the louder party's perspective. 

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matt_Ward
And
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines

Then again, there are Matt Ward/Ultramarine fans and they're people just like anyone else. Sadly, some of them stopped playing because of the hate they get and the recurring motifs of the larger fanbase. 

Personally, I don't like either of the two but I've come to think that while it makes perfect sense to be discontent about something but overdoing it is just plain bad and sad. Especially when it gets personal and doesn't stay within the boundaries of the fluff and the game. Its perfectly fine to call your opponent a flimsy pointy ear if you play Orks and he has an Eldar army because thats part of the fun; but anything beyond that and you're ruining it for both your opponent and yourself.


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## Baron Spikey

Well Tigirius was already considered one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium before the 5th Ed. Codex came out (shits all over Mephiston at least).

Necrons and Blood Angels taking on a common enemy together and then retreating afterwards because neither was in any condition to continue to fight each other? Sounds fine to me, sorry if the rest of you think the Necrons and BA should just be mindless berserkers who want to die for no gain.

The Ultramarines ARE the most highly respected Chapter, at least amongst the Astartes and probably only 2nd behind the Imperial Fists to the rest of the Imperium- whilst Matt Ward could have toned down the fanboyism very little of what he said wasn't already known. So cut the guy some slack and stop being a bunch of mouth breathers who complain just because they like to jump on a band wagon.

And seriously a Codex that mainly revolves around just the one chapter? Oh we don't have other Codexes like that do we?


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## Stella Cadente

djinn24 said:


> What the hell is up with the anti American crap that has been happening on the forums in the last week? Several posts now have had this same type of unprovoked crap added to it.


there easy targets.


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## Emporers Champion

I was reading a thread about this on Warseer the other day. I think he upset a few people at Gamesday with his responses to questions about the Codex books he has written.


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## Djinn24

While not fully true they do have some funny shit on 1d4chan .

Smurfs are over done, I wish they would spead the love a bit but every Codex: Space Marines since 3rd edition has effectively been Codex: Ultramarines with guests. While I don't agree with BA teaming up with necrons (heretic?!?) what he did in the Sm dex is nothing different then the past.


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## Emporers Champion

Dont know why they just dont give a new codex chapter an airing every time they bring out a new codex. Remember when 3rd ed first came out and for a short while Imperial and Crimson Fists where all the rage.

The guy that owns GW must play Ultramarines!


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## gen.ahab

djinn24 said:


> What the hell is up with the anti American crap that has been happening on the forums in the last week? Several posts now have had this same type of unprovoked crap added to it.


Because the snaggletooth's are angry because we fucked them over, though we really didn't, but that is a story for another day.... well, another thread anyway.

I really don't dislike the man, not a big fan of his work though.


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## Djinn24

ok...

From a painting standpoint UM are one of the easier armies to paint. Not a lot to them so can see why they would direct new players (and probably painters) to them. Imp Fists can be a royal pain in the ass, and crimson fists are a bit harder to paint as well.


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## jaws900

djinn24 said:


> Imp Fists can be a royal pain in the ass[to paint]


Here here. 
I have no problems with the guy him self other than the fluff bit but i'm sure there are many others who have done simular things such as the person who killed the race that we must never mention again:victory:


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## Doelago

Stop the Ultramarines hate! Someone has to be the poster boys, and lets face it, if the Space Wolves, or heck, lets just say, Red Templars/Revilers/White Consuls were the poster boys, people would hate them just cause of the fact that someone has to stand as an example! 

Also, Djinns post was a good one.


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## Baron Spikey

Emporers Champion said:


> Dont know why they just dont give a new codex chapter an airing every time they bring out a new codex. Remember when 3rd ed first came out and for a short while Imperial and Crimson Fists where all the rage.
> 
> The guy that owns GW must play Ultramarines!


Because the Ultramarines are the best known Chapter, who have spawned the most successors and are the by-word for Codex Chapter? What Chapter did you have in mind to replace them in the next Codex?


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## Doelago

Baron Spikey said:


> What Chapter did you have in mind to replace them in the next Codex?


The Iron Hands? :laugh: No, but what you said was pretty much it. k:


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## Emporers Champion

Baron Spikey said:


> Because the Ultramarines are the best known Chapter, who have spawned the most successors and are the by-word for Codex Chapter? What Chapter did you have in mind to replace them in the next Codex?


Does it matter? 

I dont have a particular problem with Ultramarines, but when a new codex came out they fleshed out a few other 'codex' chapters with fluff, rather than just re-iterating how glorious the Ultramarines are I think there would be good for the game as it would encourage players to start with armies other than Ultramarines.


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## Djinn24

Its not like GW only sees Smurfs as the only SM. How many chapters now have their own codexes? Now while I wish more chapters where represented in the main SM book the point could be argued SW, BA, or DA are more represent since they have their own book and don't have to share.

Lets say they made Howling Griffon the main army, most folks would fricking quit after trying to paint one!



Emporers Champion said:


> Does it matter?
> 
> I dont have a particular problem with Ultramarines, but when a new codex came out they fleshed out a few other 'codex' chapters with fluff, rather than just re-iterating how glorious the Ultramarines are I think there would be good for the game as it would encourage players to start with armies other than Ultramarines.


Why would it be a good thing to try and get new players to start with another army? Lets face it, its folks who have been around a while who are tired of seeing them. New players like them, easy to paint, nice fluff, larger then life, easily placed in history (romans). Am I the only one who remembers the 3rd and 4th ed dex being just as fluff filled?


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## Doelago

Emporers Champion said:


> Does it matter?
> 
> I dont have a particular problem with Ultramarines, but when a new codex came out they fleshed out a few other 'codex' chapters with fluff, rather than just re-iterating how glorious the Ultramarines are I think there would be good for the game as it would encourage players to start with armies other than Ultramarines.


Fuck, make the new people read some novels/get the other Space Marine codexes if you dont want them to start with the amazing Ultramarines. Even I, a former smurf hater (no idea why I was one, they are cool), collects them, but at a slow rate yes, but they are awesome! Thats why people want tham.


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## Xela

I don't really like Matt Ward's work, b/c it's too fanboyish (already said, but just adding my opinion). Personally I really like Phil Kelly's books


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## Djinn24

OMFG Kelly is such a Eldar fanboy. OMFG how can anyone like it, space elf liking fool!

(hehe)


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## Doelago

djinn24 said:


> OMFG Kelly is such a Eldar fanboy. OMFG how can anyone like it, space elf liking fool!
> 
> (hehe)


Lol, agreed! :goodpost:


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH

Really, I liked UM's until I read 5th ED SM. Look at it this way...someone who comes to 40k knowing nothing decides he wants space marines, so they buy C:SM and what do you know, they end up playing ultras because they don't know any better. If you ask that person what chapter is the best, he will say ultras because the codex has brainwashed him to say so. Now if it was called codex: ultramarines I would have no problem, but its codex SPACE MARNIES and that's extremely misleading. 

If you go buy C:BA or C:SW you know what your getting, but something as general as space marines should equally balanced between chapters, maybe include separate sections for each founding chapter briefly talking about there origins and deeds instead of rambling about Ultras for 40 pages (and I'm talking equal space here, not just a little section about the other chapters).

There need not be a poster chapter, all chapters can get the same love, but that wont happen because GW thinks they need one, and having one unified chapter as a base is easier then having god knows how many. Iron Hands need some love GW...were is the love?

And on the subject of Phil Kelly...don't go there...just dont...the man made 4th ED orks...and DE...enough said


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## Uber Ork

bitsandkits said:


> nothing wrong with necrons and blood angels teaming up against a suitable enemy, @#!*% if the USA hadn't teamed up with France you would have all been living like civilized people right now rather than the ******** you are.


Hey now... :grin: 

The fluff isn't that big of a deal to me either and for sure, the enemy of my enemy rings true throughout history. The Greeks constantly fought amongst each other until the Persians came along and they formed united coalitions to oppose them at Marathon, Salamis, and Thermopylae. In WWII you couldn't have had more ideologically opposite countries ally against the Axis, etc.

The Ultramarines (if memory serves) at one point allied themselves temporarily with the Tau after their conflict awoke (ironically, the Necrons). After the fight Calgar allowed the Tau to leave before ordering the planet exterminatus.

It stands to reason if the space marines and Tau could set aside their differences to fight a less reasoning opponent such as the Necrons, that they could work with the Necrons verses an even less reasoning opponent such as the Tyranids. 



As to Matt Ward. Personally I have nothing against him. I don't know the man, and I'm sure he's a fine guy working hard. As to his work on the Vanilla codex goes however, I'm not a huge fan.

I agree 100% the supposed vanilla codex to cover all chapters not SW, BA, DA, & BT is really the "Ultramarines + some other such chapters... who cares, HEY IT'S THE ULTRAMARINES Codex." It reminds me of what we had back in 2nd but worse. This has way more Ultramarine characters, photos, background fluff, etc. than the 2nd ed dex did. 

At least in that one my beloved fists had one whole full color page, here they're reduced to a little box that takes up a 4th of a page if I'm being generous.

Also back then, they didn't try to hide it. They just came right out and called it "Codex *Ultramarine*." If you love the Ultramarines I guess it's awesome, if you don't, it's lame.



In addition to the Ultramarine overload, I'm also not a fan of the limitations he placed on the tactical squads and weapon selections under 10 models, the loss of command squads being able to take terminator armor, etc.

Other things are cool though. The LR redeemer, sternguard, combat squads, Ironclad Dreadnought, many of the special characters (Pedro, Vulkan, etc.).


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## Stephen_Newman

I think that the marine codex is rather well written. I mean, going through the book, the opening sections about how Space marines are created, where they originated, how a chapter is structured and what organs they have is pure fluff gold to me. It introduces all about them in a simple format that you have to remember HAS to be easy for the kids to understand. It also makes sense to me to use the Ultras as the example here since they are the iconic chapter of the space marines. Although hearing about the origins of every vanilla primarch (Corax, Ferrus Manus, Dorn, Vulkan and Jaghatai Khan) would have been nice as well as Guilleman.

Where the book goes down hill is the battles of the ultramarines sections. Just the minor parts about how they are all the friggin same back bone but with different worlds, people and enemies. I also find it ridiculous that a normal battle brother is able to knock out a wraithlord when in game terms he cannot hurt the fucking thing!

I do however have to agree that it would have been nice to have a little less emphasis on the ultras. I thought that the Iron Hands in particular were very underrepresented for a first founding chapter. Also could we have either less Ultramarine SC or have more of the old non Ultramarine SC back like Cortez and Chaplain Xavier. The other thing I hate about the code is it introduced the wanna-be lisence on SC.

For codex writing ability I hate the Nid Codex by Robin Cruddace. The man could not write a decent piece of fluff if his life depended on it. I too like Phil Kelly's work best however being an Eldar player for 8 years probably does hold some sway on me.


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## SilverTabby

For a vanilla marines _rulebook_ C:SM is just fine. It has characters from a number of different Chapters, and the army structures follow the Codex Astartes. The other Codexes all stray from that in a number of ways, hence they aren't 'vanilla' Chapters. 

As has been pointed out before, the Ultramarines are the epitome of the Codex Chapter. Hence why they get so much love in the book. But if it were Codex Ultramarines, there wouldn't be _anything_ but Smurfs in the colour section or fluff. 

Seriously guys, time to stop complaining that the main Codex Chapter in the 40k universe was used as the Codex Chapter for the marine book for Chapters that follow the Codex. *rolls eyes and shakes head*

On a side note, I do believe the Marine Codex in 2nd Ed was actually called Codex Ultramarines. I have a copy downstairs somewhere...

And Matt Ward is a lovely chap, regardless of his writing skills.


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## The Sullen One

Quozzo said:


> So they're the finest fighting force, the most skilled marksman and have the most power psyker! clearly not the most modest chapter though.


In the 41st Millennium there is only... rabid egotism.

Apart from that, Ward isn't all bad, after all he wrote a lot of good army books for Warhammer.



djinn24 said:


> Lets say they made Howling Griffon the main army, most folks would fricking quit after trying to paint one!


Or better yet they might play an army other than Space Marines.


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## Uber Ork

SilverTabby said:


> On a side note, I do believe the Marine Codex in 2nd Ed was actually called Codex Ultramarines. I have a copy downstairs somewhere...


It was. Looked like this...









It was really at that point (or it could be a little before... that far back my memory gets fuzzy  ) that GW made the Ultramarines the iconic space marine chapter. Codex Ultramarines was, as the name implies, dominated by that chapter but was intended for use by other "codex" adhering chapters.

3rd ed, had the Crimson Fists on the cover and was (other than that) truly neutral. Due to the huge game overhaul from 2nd to 3rd they needed to get codexes out in a hurry so they went super light on the fluff. 4th made a journey back a bit towards Ultramarines in the sense of taking time to explain how the Astartes Codex came about, etc. but it was really 5th edition that's taken us full circle. It very much has the feel that the 2nd ed codex did with the Ultramarines on center stage.


It isn't a bad piece of writing at all, but if you love vanilla marines, but dislike the Ultramarine chapter it's a bit on the too much side.


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## turel2

Baron Spikey said:


> Because the Ultramarines are the best known Chapter, who have spawned the most successors and are the by-word for Codex Chapter? What Chapter did you have in mind to replace them in the next Codex?


Space Sharks or Rainbow Warriors lol


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## Vaz

Doelago said:


> Stop the Ultramarines hate! Someone has to be the poster boys, and lets face it, if the Space Wolves, or heck, lets just say, Red Templars/Revilers/White Consuls were the poster boys, people would hate them just cause of the fact that someone has to stand as an example!
> 
> Also, Djinns post was a good one.


I think you might like the Minotaur's then. They're effectively the High Lords Attack Dogs along with the Carcharadon's (attack... fish?).

Mat Wards list of achievements are wide and greatly hailed whereever he goes. However - there are notable exceptions; Warhammer Fantasy 8th, Fantasy Daemons, Codex Space Marines, and Codex Blood Angels.

Too many people rage against Mat Ward and Gav Thorpe though.

Ever played an army with Adam Troke at the help? The guy's the living definition of an arseling for some of those stupid idea's, and the inability of the FAQ to actually balance it.


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## kharn-the-betrayer

bitsandkits said:


> nothing wrong with necrons and blood angels teaming up against a suitable enemy, hell if the USA hadn't teamed up with France you would have all been living like civilized people right now rather than the ******** you are.


Being a ******* is fun.


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## .Kevin.

Now picture this- Matt Ward is an Ultramarine irl.


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## Stella Cadente

The Sullen One said:


> Or better yet they might play an army other than Space Marines.


oh how wonderful that would be


.Kevin. said:


> Now picture this- Matt Ward is an Ultramarine irl.


thats not really too hard to do, and just like an ultrasmurf he probably jacks off to pictures of himself and there sissy primark.


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## Flindo

Ultramarines; the soul reason why Chaos marines are probably so pissed at Space marines


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## Scathainn

The only problem I have with Matt Ward is this:

Why in gods name are the Iron Hands, one of the FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTERS and arguably one of the most thematically interesting ones....

...given a grand total of 0 special characters, 1 paragraph of text and a shitty story?


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## Djinn24

Angry Marines Are Angrrrrrrry.

Edit: Hmm is you type in all caps it auto lowercases it...


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## Katie Drake

I'm actually stunned that people don't get this.

Guys. Seriously. The Space Marine Codex is freaking gigantic. It's the largest Codex in the game right now. It has an unprecedented amount of fluff for many Chapters inside it (not counting the 2nd edition Codecies. Seriously people, that was ages ago. Get over it). Yeah, the Ultramarines get a lot of pages dedicated to them. Do you actually think that Matt Ward wrote all that fluff about the Ultramarines because he has not-so-secret hard on for them? Or could it maybe be that it's just good Codex writing policy to make the army that the Codex is dedicated to sounds like the coolest, meanest, most powerful army imaginable to ensure that people will want to buy it?

Go through the 3rd and 4th edition Space Marine Codecies. Count up the amount of total fluff in both of them and compare it to the 5th edition book. Here's a question: How many words were written about the Raven Guard in the 3rd edition Codex? How about the 4th edition one? How about the Salamanders? White Scars? Even Iron Hands?

Yeah, that's right. Significantly less than the 5th edition one.

I think my point is made.


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## Eleven

Stella Cadente said:


> there easy targets.


Where easy targets? Over there? Oh wait, you meant to say that "they're" easy targets.

Wasn't there some other country that started the language that I am sometimes forced to defend?

The only reason that I wish the C:SM was not so ultramarine focused is that it practically forces GW to make all these other marine codices so that marine players can play an army suitable for their legion's playstyle.

That's what needs to be improved in the chaos codex. It's worse for chaos though as there aren't 4 other chaos codices to choose from. In short, they should work on making the primary codex of both SM and CSM able to represent all chapters so as not to force the need for other SM codices.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

I too at first, thought it reeked of fanboyism, and while it still does, quite a few good points have been made here that have made me change my mind regarding the codex as a whole.

Katie in particular makes a good point. That while the codex has in the last years been primarily to market space marines a.k.a Ultramarines, the other chapters still saw an increase in fluff/rules etc.


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## gen.ahab

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Troll be trolling?


Trolling the troll, huh? 

At self,
Trolling the trolls troll, huh? 

Vicious cycle, ain't it?:laugh:


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Lol Gen. your going to look dumb in a couple minutes, Eleven and I sorted it out. thanks for your concern however


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## gen.ahab

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Lol Gen. your going to look dumb in a couple minutes, Eleven and I sorted it out. thanks for your concern however


I just had a conversation with myself via text format..... at this point, do you honestly think that matters?:laugh:

Besides, I still have it quoted you duplicitous little bastard. :laugh:


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

gen.ahab said:


> Besides, I still have it quoted you duplicitous little bastard. :laugh:


LMFAO! +rep for that!!


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## SilverTabby

Scathainn said:


> The only problem I have with Matt Ward is this:
> 
> Why in gods name are the Iron Hands, one of the FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTERS and arguably one of the most thematically interesting ones....
> 
> ...given a grand total of 0 special characters, 1 paragraph of text and a shitty story?


There are a lot of First Founding Chapters - 20 I believe. Iron Hands aren't the only ones that missed out. Besides, don't hate Matt for that. It wasn't his choice to make. He just wrote the Codex, he didn't get to decide what went in it. There's more than one person involved in the planning of a Codex, and virtually all of them are higher-ranked than him. 



Stella said:


> thats not really too hard to do, and just like an ultrasmurf he probably jacks off to pictures of himself and there sissy primark.


And (apart from the terrible punctuation and spelling) that is why I dislike many forums. Have you ever actually met him in the flesh, talked to him or know anything about him other than he writes for Games Dev? I have and I do, and take exception to remarks like this. Don't forget, he's a real person (who might just read these things) and by all means diss his work, but taking it to personal levels like that is both childish and insulting.


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## Chompy Bits

Matt Ward is clearly an Alpha Legion operative who, through his fanboy ramblings, is intent on spreading the Ultramarines hate to the masses.


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## Serpion5

Chompy Bits said:


> Matt Ward is clearly an Alpha Legion operative who, through his fanboy ramblings, is intent on spreading the Ultramarines hate to the masses.


Using himself as a target. Very cunning. At some point I have no doubt that he will fake his own death (probably with a fake head) and cause UM haters the world across to celebrate and join as one. He will then probable re-surface in his real guise and lead his new army to world domination. 

ALL HAIL ALPHARIUS! :chuffed: :wild:


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## deathbringer

I'm sorry but the ultramarines invented the codex astartes, have the most successors and genuinely are one of the foremost fighting forces in the imperium. Why the hell shouldn't they be the poster boys considering they wrote the codex astartes.

I see no reason to loathe matt ward for it. He did a good job in lord of the rings and his elven army is one of the most beautiful i've ever seen.

As for the BA teaming up with necrons. Its not as if they sat down and negotiated a fucking treaty.
They saw a common enemy that was stronger than each divided. Attacked it and then retreated numbers spent. I dont see the problem with that, it's military sense and also gives us another reason for armies to play together in a fluffy manner.

No problem with the guy in this cornor


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## Oldenhaller

Blood blood angels blood codex for blood40bloodk

repetative use of a word in a sentance or paragraph makes you sound like an idiot. Anyone who can't come up with something other than a 'bloodfist', 'blood talon' and 'sanguine (blood foryou rubes out there) blade' for example is really just writing bad fan fic.

a little more invention please - if you're in charge you take the flack for that.


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## Aramoro

Ah Blood Fist, Bloodstrikes, Blood Talons, Blood Chalice, that's the best bit of the codex, replace any prefix with Blood and you're done.


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## Oldenhaller

I personally like the bloodfist best of all...this is a dreadnought close combat weapon. So it's the same as any other dreadnought's power fist but you've just called it something dumb with blood as a prefix? Quality fail


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## Alsojames

This, my friends, is why I serve the Greater Good/Craftworld instead of the Imperium.
You don't see ep1c sup3r fanb0yishn3ss for any particular Eldar Craftworld or Tau sept amirite?

Although Ulthwe and Iyanden get quite a bit of backstory, all the major craftworlds (Ulthwe, Iyanden, Alaitoc, Saim-Hann, Biel-Tan, etc)


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## experiment 626

personally, i dislike ward's rule writing abilities because it seem as though he doesn't even try to envision what his books could become;
- Orcs & Gobbos: when 7th first came out, these guys were insanely godly! massively cheap compared to everyone else and they had some vile magic item combos.
of corse, it wasn't really a good book, and it struck me when he even admited in WD that he didn't like O&G's and wasn't keen to do the book?! (no matter how much you think a task sucks, it's highly unprofessional to actually voice to the general fans you don't want to do something...)

- Daemons of Chaos: the book that completely broke 7th ed fantasy...:headbutt:
it was so powerful, that even a two-year-old could win with it! some lists were so badly over-powered you'd be lucky to even get a turn! there was no down-side to daemons in 7th since they had cheap, high-powered core you could easily spam, heralds who buffed their troops with added abilities, nasty magic, daemonic gifts which can be dupilcated ad nausium...
so things like plagebunkers with T4/5+ ward & regen were possible, as were magic phases of 25+ power dice all dedicated to a dozen plus flickering fire spells for D6+1, SD6+1 hits. on top of 'thirsters with 2D6+2 attacks, ASF daemonettes and greater daemons in 2k games...
just silly, and it turned fantasy into nothing but a dick measuring contest.

- Codex Marines: again, there's some easy to spot combos that reak of total lack of insight... it took me all of about 30 seconds to realise that Lysander + Sternguard = basket 'o win. re-rolling 20 hellifre rounds is death to any elite unit in the game...
the only thing that really keeps this codex in check is;
a) the number of little timmy's that are too dumb to know what the word 'tactic' means.
b) everyone and their mother knows how to fight marines and can deal with T4/3+ saves quite effectively.

- Codex Blood Angels: the marine codex of 'i win'. seriously, there's no effort to try and come up with a border-line broken list from this book... BA's kinda just 'get it all' and then some.
storm ravens, outflanking preds, death co dreads, 'uber characters, FNP across and entire marine gunline... seriously, was there any attempt at balance here?!

- Fantasy 8th ed. overall, i really like 8th ed, i can even live with the fact that it kinda kicked my beloved VC's square in the teeth!
but then he had to go and goof it up with magic. it's not the dice generation or even adding wizard levels to your casts/dispels, (which i think is ace and stops Lv1 scroll spam nicely). but the game-breaking 'uber spells of DOOM!!!
power scroll + purple sun of xeruse, dweller below or pit of shades have ruined magic! now you simply get into games only to see on the 1st turn half or more of your entire army go down to something you have no chance what-so-ever of stopping!!! it's not even possible to save your characters from these spells, and there's no saves of ANY kind either...


i don't hate ward because he's a fanboy or such - we all are fanboyz in our own way! we all think our chosen race is best and should get more attention from GW.
nope, the reason i dislike ward as a games designer is because he's a simply a bad games designer. his lack of forethought leads to alot of gimmiky, OP crap that the bandwagon leaps over and then ruins the game for eveyone else...

cheers!


----------



## C'Tan Chimera

I for one find it great fun. I still hate the Ultrasmurfs, though.


----------



## LordOwlingtonIII

Why do creatures trying to aquire biomass care about metal skeletons? SILLYNESS!

Also, arn't the Ultramarines the only chapter without some sort of mental derangement they've built their chapter around? Like the red rage those angels have.


----------



## Uber Ork

Katie Drake said:


> I'm actually stunned that people don't get this.
> 
> Guys. Seriously. The Space Marine Codex is freaking gigantic. It's the largest Codex in the game right now. It has an unprecedented amount of fluff for many Chapters inside it


I agree with you on this for sure. It is the largest codex for space marines by far. I don't see anyone else disputing this as well, so point taken and accepted. 




Katie Drake said:


> (not counting the 2nd edition Codecies. Seriously people, that was ages ago. Get over it).


To say a codex is similar to that of decades past is simply a comparative statement. Nothing more was meant by it, nor am I stuck in the past. I am uncertain why you find the comparison... not sure what the word I should use here... unacceptable? Why would you find this comparison unacceptable or inappropriate to bring up? 

The space marine codex of 2nd ed is similar in it's focus on the Ultramarines, yet different in many ways. The title, page length, quality of art work, models, and painting skills, etc. ...I only meant to say that like Codex Ultramarines, this codex too is largely about the Ultramarines. 

If you like Ultramarines that's a great thing for you, if not, you're kind of bummed that with so many more pages in the new dex, they didn't do more of an equal job spreading the fluff around. 






Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, the Ultramarines get a lot of pages dedicated to them. Do you actually think that Matt Ward wrote all that fluff about the Ultramarines because he has not-so-secret hard on for them?


No, unlike those who add a sexual connection between Matt Ward and his job at Games Workshop, I do not. As to his being the sole voice on the direction of a codex he writes, I doubt that as well. From what I've picked up over the years, there seems to be a design team including artists, sculptors, writers, etc. and what I would assume to be a project manager over them all. 

I would imagine it would work one of two ways. (A) They are given a starting point from which to generate ideas, or (B) they're given freedom to come up with ideas. I'm uncertain which it was, but in the end Matt would not be the sole responsible person. No matter how the finished product was arrived at, it had to be approved by the powers that be before going to print. 

In the end however, it is his name that is attached to the writing and overall design of the codex which is both good and bad. He receives all the glory for a well received and loved codex, and all the disapproval of one not as warmly accepted. 

For my part, I have absolutely nothing against the man, but would have preferred less of an Ultramarine focus which I'll explain in my next point...






Katie Drake said:


> Or could it maybe be that it's just good Codex writing policy to make the army that the Codex is dedicated to sounds like the coolest, meanest, most powerful army imaginable to ensure that people will want to buy it?


This is my point right here. You see, the codex isn't dedicated to Ultramarines, it's dedicated to Space Marines. Even in your dislike for those who don't like the Ultramarine focus, you agree it is "dedicated" to them. This is why I drew comparisons to 2nd edition. Then the codex of 2nd ed was literally dedicated to the ultramarines. However, the current codex (at least as the title implies) was dedicated to all Space Marines who don't have their own separate codex (such as SW, BA, DA, & BT). 


If you don't like, say... Necrons. No worries, you don't need to purchase their codex.

If you don't like Ultramarines, but (A) want to play space marines, and (B) like another "vanilla" chapter such as Imperial Fists or Iron Hands, etc. then you're pretty bummed to have to buy a codex where so many pages are dedicated to a chapter you do not like. 

Necron example = no wasted money.
SM example = money spent for pages you do not like, nor wish to read.

Imagine cracking open the pages for the first time thinking it to be a balanced treatise on "space marines," only to find out a large portion is "codex Ultramarines + a little bit about a few other chapters."

That's all we're saying... that was a bummer.


The anti-Matt Ward rhetoric... that's just a few people, certainly not the whole frustrated with space marine codex camp.




.


----------



## Djinn24

Katie Drake said:


> I'm actually stunned that people don't get this.
> 
> Guys. Seriously. The Space Marine Codex is freaking gigantic. It's the largest Codex in the game right now. It has an unprecedented amount of fluff for many Chapters inside it


Very good point



Katie Drake said:


> (not counting the 2nd edition Codecies. Seriously people, that was ages ago. Get over it).


Don't get shitty because you where 6 when most of us started playing and missed out when the game was good. 



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, the Ultramarines get a lot of pages dedicated to them. Do you actually think that Matt Ward wrote all that fluff about the Ultramarines because he has not-so-secret hard on for them? Or could it maybe be that it's just good Codex writing policy to make the army that the Codex is dedicated to


Fail, this is, as has been pointed out for 3 pages now NOT a damn Ultramarine codex. It is a SPACE MARINE codex.



Katie Drake said:


> sounds like the coolest, meanest, most powerful army imaginable to ensure that people will want to buy it?


Thats fine, but I think what is being said is they went a bit overboard with it. All founding legions who did not have their own dex should have gotten a special character and a fair amount of fluff, which did not happen. 



Katie Drake said:


> Go through the 3rd and 4th edition Space Marine Codecies. Count up the amount of total fluff in both of them and compare it to the 5th edition book. Here's a question: How many words were written about the Raven Guard in the 3rd edition Codex? How about the 4th edition one? How about the Salamanders? White Scars? Even Iron Hands?
> 
> Yeah, that's right. Significantly less than the 5th edition one.
> 
> I think my point is made.


What point is that, that you can bring up stuff that has been talked about for several pages and rewrite it and because your Katie motherfucking Drake people will suddenly be like: "OMFGzzz why didn't I see that!" 

But in all seriousness you do bring up a lot of valid points and you are correct about the new codex being huge compared to the old ones but personally, like I said above, all founding legions should have been represented better. 

Logically Smurfs make sense to me as the poster boys. 



SilverTabby said:


> There are a lot of First Founding Chapters - 20 I believe. Iron Hands aren't the only ones that missed out.


20 to start
2 that disappeared
9 that are chaos
2 that have their own dex.

Leaves 7 that should be represented. 



SilverTabby said:


> Besides, don't hate Matt for that. It wasn't his choice to make. He just wrote the Codex, he didn't get to decide what went in it. There's more than one person involved in the planning of a Codex, and virtually all of them are higher-ranked than him.


I bet you he has more power in what goes in then what you figure. The higher ups have final say and might tell him roughly what goes into the books but he is who ultimately what goes into it. Tho unless anyone here has been on the GW design team we probably will not know. 



SilverTabby said:


> And (apart from the terrible punctuation and spelling) that is why I dislike many forums. Have you ever actually met him in the flesh, talked to him or know anything about him other than he writes for Games Dev? I have and I do, and take exception to remarks like this. Don't forget, he's a real person (who might just read these things) and by all means diss his work, but taking it to personal levels like that is both childish and insulting.


Really? He is a public figure, shit like this comes with the 'fame'. Also stella is both childish and insulting so your argument is a bit mute. :/



deathbringer said:


> I see no reason to loathe matt ward for it. He did a good job in lord of the rings and his elven army is one of the most beautiful i've ever seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares about LotR? And who cares how nice his army looks, this is about his writing skills.
> 
> 
> 
> deathbringer said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the BA teaming up with necrons. Its not as if they sat down and negotiated a fucking treaty.
> They saw a common enemy that was stronger than each divided. Attacked it and then retreated numbers spent. I dont see the problem with that, it's military sense and also gives us another reason for armies to play together in a fluffy manner.
> 
> No problem with the guy in this cornor
> 
> 
> 
> First logical thing I have read about them teaming up.
> 
> 
> 
> The Sullen One said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stella ,that should be 'you're' not 'your'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Troll much? Seriously if your not adding anything but picking on a persons punctuation or spelling then don't post.
> 
> 
> 
> Oldenhaller said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blood blood angels blood codex for blood40bloodk
> 
> repetative use of a word in a sentance or paragraph makes you sound like an idiot. Anyone who can't come up with something other than a 'bloodfist', 'blood talon' and 'sanguine (blood foryou rubes out there) blade' for example is really just writing bad fan fic.
> 
> a little more invention please - if you're in charge you take the flack for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aramoro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah Blood Fist, Bloodstrikes, Blood Talons, Blood Chalice, that's the best bit of the codex, replace any prefix with Blood and you're done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What the hell are you two talking about? Did someone remove a post or did I miss where this became a discussion on how 'lame' the BA successor chapter names are?
> 
> While it would be neat to see another Army shown as the poster child, it is not as if they do not show any of the other chapters. Is the codex over UM fluffed? I think it could have been backed off a bit and a few more added but it is a pretty fun read.
> 
> Also to the ones who mentioned the game mechanics, that was a failure of the playtest team. It is their job to see obvious rule screw ups.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Baron Spikey

djinn24 said:


> 20 to start
> 2 that disappeared
> 9 that are chaos
> 2 that have their own dex.
> 
> Leaves 7 that should be represented.


20 to start
2 that disappeared
9 that are chaos
*3* that have their own dex (BA, DA, SW)

Leaving 6 that should be represented:
Ultramarine Characters
Raven Guard Character
Imperial Fists Character
Salamander Character
White Scars Character

Hmm only the Iron Hands don't have their own special Character, but since the Master of the Forge was likely included to represent Chapters such as the IH that's sort of understandable.


----------



## LukeValantine

I never did like the UM, and thee current codex from Matt made theem look even more nonsensically awesome. Why thee hate? Because I like armies that stay within the laws of probability, and common sense. For instance I love the Guard, and Tau, and CSM. Why because even in their own codex, they talk about minor defeats, and weaknesses. CSM die all thee time, and often win by utilizing tactics, terror, and subterfuge.

However in the UM codex theey could send 100 guys, and subjugate a entire world, or fight alien monsters to a standstill, by their sheer awesomeness. Seriously the codex sounds like something a UM would have written to show thee glory, and majesty of his own chapter.

Doesn't help my disposition either to have to constantly play against the local UM fans in my area who go on and on about how awsome they are just to have me hand their poorly built shit fan army back at them (I have had 1 or two of them shoot Thousand sons, rather then berzerkers when I was within charge range?)


----------



## Doelago

LukeValantine said:


> However in the UM codex theey could send 100 guys, and subjugate a entire world, or fight alien monsters to a standstill, by their sheer awesomeness.


The Adeptus Astartes are known for their awesomeness, unlike their heretical counterparts.


----------



## Uber Ork

Baron Spikey said:


> 20 to start
> 2 that disappeared
> 9 that are chaos
> *3* that have their own dex (BA, DA, SW)
> 
> Leaving 6 that should be represented:
> Ultramarine Characters (*Six!* ...Calgar, Sicarius, Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, & Chronus)
> Raven Guard Character (One... Shrike)
> Imperial Fists Character (One... Lysander)
> Salamander Character (One... He'stan)
> White Scars Character (One... Khan)
> *Iron Hands* (None...)
> 
> *Crimson Fists* (2nd founding. One... Kantor)
> 
> Hmm only the Iron Hands don't have their own special Character, but since the Master of the Forge was likely included to represent Chapters such as the IH that's sort of understandable.


That's a good point, but still... he's not a _"*special*"_ character with Iron Hands specific fluff, etc.  

Special characters are more ...well, uh ...special. :laugh: They make you feel like you're more loved by GW if you get one. I can understand the IH players being upset that they got left out. However, I see where you're going with this, and agree with you wholeheartedly that creating the Master of the Forge to allow players to create an IH feel to their armies, was most likely GW's motivation for creating this unit. 

Still, it wouldn't have been too much to give one to two pages of the largest codex ever produced to an Iron Hands special character. I mean what about Cassius? In the 2 years and 3+ months since the 5th ed. codex came out, I've not seen one SM list with him included in it. Surely the ultramarines could have made due with 5 special characters instead of 6, and the pages given to Cassius could have been handed over to the Iron Hands.




.


----------



## Doelago

There are Iron Hands players out there? :shok: 

As an hardcore Space Marine player/fanboy/supporter even I would be (am) shocked to hear that someone actually plays them... They are just a bit... Boring... Even to me...


----------



## gen.ahab

Doelago said:


> There are Iron Hands players out there? :shok:
> 
> As an hardcore Space Marine player/fanboy/supporter even I would be (am) shocked to hear that someone actually plays them... They are just a bit... Boring... Even to me...


Not to mention douche bags.... even by imperial standards.


----------



## SilverTabby

djinn24 said:


> I bet you he has more power in what goes in then what you figure. The higher ups have final say and might tell him roughly what goes into the books but he is who ultimately what goes into it. Tho unless anyone here has been on the GW design team we probably will not know.


The writing process is actually a lot more involved than you think. It's virtually impossible to remove something that has an existing, up-to-date kit unless it is an entire line re-sculpt like with the Dark Eldar or Wood Elves. When the writer wants to add new things in, long and complicated cross-department meetings happen to discuss what would be on the frames, how many figures in box / blister, materials best to make them in, how much time it would eat from the limited sculpting schedule for each project... the list is endless and all this is done months before the actual writing starts. So once they have the go ahead for a new 'thing' for the Codex, it's virtually decided before it's even got to Games Dev, by the department managers and fluff managers like Alan Merritt. 

Then a draft army list is drawn up. It's playtested, given to various other departments to playtest, then given back to Games Dev. The scuplting managers come back with preliminary things about how a certain item wouldn't be feasible to make, so the list is altered again. All of this is still over a year, sometimes upto 2 years prior to release. The cycle then repeats, usually several times. During this time, the fluff is being written as best it can be - again, unless a ret-con has been decreed from above, it's basically making the existing background new and interesting to read, and adding in a few years / campaigns.. 

Then the initial castings of figures start coming in. These are often in resin, as the plastics / metals won't be finished in time for 'Eavy Metals' deadlines (go to the Museum and you'll see the ones in resin - they're the ones sagging slightly under the lights. Virtually the whole of Codex Necrons has resin figures in the colour section, including the gun tubes). Often things need changing at short notice at the very end of the painting process, which is where mistakes happen and photoshop is used or pre-production get photos slightly wrong (leading to threads about box contents and representation of such). This is still 6-8 moths prior to release.

During this time, the list has been made, tested, altered, re-written, and then finally given over to high-ups for approval before going to pre-production for lay-out. This is the crucial stage where the high-ups make last minute decisions that can lead to the outraged threads entitled "OMG didn't they playtest this??!?" One last-minute decision from someone like Alan can alter the balance of an entire unit, but there's nothing that can really be done at that final stage and he has the last say. This is often so close to deadline (or even past it sometimes) that there is no time to check these changes with play-testing, so if it looks ok on paper, it goes in. 

The book is then sent to pre-production. They do editing and spelling, not checking of viability of the list or stats (occasionally one will get a 'dex he or she has an army for, but it's not often), so anything that got altered in that last draft now won't get picked up on.

So, now we're 6 months from release. Pre-production send off the finished article to be printed. White Dwarf start work on articles, 'Eavy Metal do stage-by-stages and Hobby do frame diagrams. Battle reports happen. This is usually when leaks start happening, as the Codex files have been sent out-of-house and the models start moving around for photography more. White Dwarf gets sent off to pre-production and to print 3 months prior to release.

About a month prior to release (if lucky, sometimes it's only a week or two), the Studio staff finally get their copies of the new 'Dex. Everyone reads them, and it's only at that point that the tiny things that don't add up get pointed out. 

So, now you have a slightly better idea of how the higher-ups have influence on the contents of a Codex, and just how little say the writer actually has (except in expanding what they're given) in most cases.


----------



## Doelago

gen.ahab said:


> Not to mention douche bags.... even by imperial standards.


Are you hinting at someone, huh? :threaten:


----------



## Uber Ork

Doelago said:


> There are Iron Hands players out there? :shok:
> 
> As an hardcore Space Marine player/fanboy/supporter even I would be (am) shocked to hear that someone actually plays them... They are just a bit... Boring... Even to me...


I agree. Ever since they had that tac squad special release and I saw the models, I thought. "Lame." I will say after reading the HH novels Ferrus Manus, but not his legion, became more cool to me. The Iron Hand characters in the novel were, as you said, a bit to boring. Manus on the other hand rocked right up to the point he got his head whacked off by Fulgrim on Istvaan V!

Did a quick search and didn't find much. Here's a few guys talking about their love for the IH's on DakkaDakka... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275232.page

If you do an image search you find a few, but decent, IH conversions. Nothing in overwhelming numbers though...


----------



## Oldenhaller

djinn24 said:


> What the hell are you two talking about? Did someone remove a post or did I miss where this became a discussion on how 'lame' the BA successor chapter names are?


Really? is it difficult to talk about other codicies other than C:SM? I know we're all on our high horses about the quality and amount of fluff in that particular book however as I read the title of this thread it was about Matt Ward and why he's disliked.

What I did was to point out the quality of the naming conventions which had been used in C:BA and as you can see this was imediately picked up on...having mentioned the names of a number of specific pieces of wargear which suffered from this problem - others include the psychic power 'blood lance'. 

I'll remember in future to ensure that when I've mentioned a specific codex and wargear from it that i point out that it's wargear from that codex otherwise this might not be picked up on...?

Shush...please, you're embarasing yourself, it doesn't help your arguement 

~O


----------



## Doelago

Would not have been surprised if you had found them over at Warseer! :laugh:

But seriously, those guys are Adeptus Mechanius wannabes... No question about that...

The only reason I would get the Iron Hands tactical squad is to make my marines look like they have been stuck in since day one. Bionic leg, cool for a veteran.


----------



## gen.ahab

Doelago said:


> Are you hinting at someone, huh? :threaten:


Yeah, all the good guys are cunts. :laugh: Well, 99% of them anyway.


----------



## Uber Ork

Doelago said:


> The only reason I would get the Iron Hands tactical squad is to make my marines look like they have been stuck in since day one. Bionic leg, cool for a veteran.


I don't know... they look pretty hideous to me for some reason. I think it's because the ones with bionic legs look so scrawny to me. I think if I bulked 'em up with a few more wires, etc. they'd look pretty good. The ML guy doesn't look to bad, but do you see what I mean with the sergeant? He looks like a necron who forgot to put all the pieces of his power armor disguise on. 










.....





SilverTabby said:


> The writing process is actually a lot more involved than you think...


While I have no way to verify how you might know the GW process of development, production, and marketing, what you have to say is well thought out, logical, and seems highly realistic and plausible. 

Also, while I'm not into personal attacks on people I don't know, I do think GW is responsible for the products they produce good or bad. If they run out of time, weren't able to play test, chose someone who makes final decisions that may not be the best, etc. ...who's fault is that? Those things can only rest on their shoulders. 

As the old adage goes, the consumer's always right. Why? Because if you want the consumer to buy your product, you better care about what they think. As I'm sure GW does care (they didn't get this successful by not caring), it seems wise to seek the input of the consumer. 

As a consumer, I think the space marine codex should have been more balanced. If they wanted to make it mainly about Ultramarines + a little bit about other chapters, then name it (as they did in 2nd ed. Codex Ultramarines). 

In the end, we the consumer don't have all the names of each individual involved in the process. We have the author of the codex. In WD they don't usually interview all the people involved, they interview the author of the codex. When we love something in a codex, we usually don't praise all the people involved, we praise the author of the codex. And when we don't like something in a codex (because we don't know all the people involved) blame the author of the codex. 

If you say Alan Merritt is to blame, I would be fine with that. I would direct my comments to him and say Mr. Merritt, can you please have the next space marine codex more evenly represent a wider variety of first founding chapters.



.


----------



## Doelago

Uber Ork said:


> I don't know... they look pretty hideous to me for some reason. I think it's because the ones with bionic legs look so scrawny to me. I think if I bulked 'em up with a few more wires, etc. they'd look pretty good. The ML guy doesn't look to bad, but do you see what I mean with the sergeant? He looks like a necron who forgot to put all the pieces of his power armor disguise on.


Cant claim that I would not agree with you...


----------



## Djinn24

Oldenhaller said:


> Really? is it difficult to talk about other codicies other than C:SM? I know we're all on our high horses about the quality and amount of fluff in that particular book however as I read the title of this thread it was about Matt Ward and why he's disliked.
> 
> What I did was to point out the quality of the naming conventions which had been used in C:BA and as you can see this was imediately picked up on...having mentioned the names of a number of specific pieces of wargear which suffered from this problem - others include the psychic power 'blood lance'.
> 
> I'll remember in future to ensure that when I've mentioned a specific codex and wargear from it that i point out that it's wargear from that codex otherwise this might not be picked up on...?
> 
> Shush...please, you're embarasing yourself, it doesn't help your arguement
> 
> ~O


Wasn't trying to argue, was reading the thread and suddenly two posts about the 'lame' name conversions. I was partly serious about did someone delete post because it was kinda out of left friend, but now that you explained it, you do make sense. And what argument? That Ultramarines are a good starting chapter because they are easy to paint?


----------



## The Sullen One

djinn24 said:


> Troll much? Seriously if your not adding anything but picking on a persons punctuation or spelling then don't post.


That should be 'you're' not 'your'.

On a more serious note who cares about this anymore? So Mat Ward wrote a codex full of Ultramarine fluff, wow, real surprise that. I mean a Space Marine codex that focused on the Ultramarines, what a big surprise that is.

Now I could on like that but to do so would show that I'm a bit of a t word, but I won't. Instead I'll say this:

The next Space Marine codex, probably out sometime next year, will feature the Ultramarines on the front cover and probably have quite a bit about them in the codex itself, but then again they are the poster boys so it stands to reason that we're told a lot about them.

I'll also say, again, that Mat Ward isn't a bad guy and he's written some real crackers besides Codex: Space Marines (I hate Space Marines and I still thought it was a good book (I buy all the codices so I know what I'm fighting in case anyone was wondering)) such as the Wood Elves book and I'm sure whatever he writes next will be just as good.


----------



## chromedog

He's one of the Aussie Ex-pats who got reverse-transported to blighty when they found out Aussies were running things down here much better than they were (or indeed were capable of).

He, alongside Dave Taylor and Justin Keyes, were the three bright lights of Aus GW - before the dark times.


----------



## Katie Drake

I just want to start off saying that I didn't actually read the majority of the thread when I posted. It was extremely late at night (like... to the point where most people would be getting up for work in a couple hours) and I didn't want to read everything, so if it at all seemed like I was "aiming" my post at you Uber Ork, I'd like to assure you that this wasn't the case. My use of "you" during my earlier post is meant entirely to refer to those that are all kinds of upset about the current Space Marine Codex and feel that it's so unbalanced (from a fluff standpoint) that it warrants tons of moaning about.



Uber Ork said:


> To say a codex is similar to that of decades past is simply a comparative statement. Nothing more was meant by it, nor am I stuck in the past. I am uncertain why you find the comparison... not sure what the word I should use here... unacceptable? Why would you find this comparison unacceptable or inappropriate to bring up?


What I was getting at is that since the Second Edition Codex is so old at this point, I feel that it's more or less irrelevant when used as a comparison. It's really just my opinion though.



> The space marine codex of 2nd ed is similar in it's focus on the Ultramarines, yet different in many ways. The title, page length, quality of art work, models, and painting skills, etc. ...I only meant to say that like Codex Ultramarines, this codex too is largely about the Ultramarines.


Yeah again, I actually didn't read your post on the matter.



> If you like Ultramarines that's a great thing for you, if not, you're kind of bummed that with so many more pages in the new dex, they didn't do more of an equal job spreading the fluff around.


I actually feel like GW did a good job spreading out the fluff. Yes, there's unquestionably more fluff about the Ultramarines than any other single Chapter in the book. I do think that this is sort of to be expected though, considering that the Ultramarines are the best example of what your average Space Marine is like. Since most Chapters are based off of the Ultramarines either genetically or organizationally, examining the Ultramarines themselves is a great way of giving the reader the general idea of how Space Marines from almost any Chapter would act. So in a way, fluff about the Ultramarines is very much fluff about Space Marines as a whole.




> No, unlike those who add a sexual connection between Matt Ward and his job at Games Workshop, I do not.


No, you don't. But a lot of people love to insinuate immature things like this, so I thought I'd bring it up.



> As to his being the sole voice on the direction of a codex he writes, I doubt that as well. From what I've picked up over the years, there seems to be a design team including artists, sculptors, writers, etc. and what I would assume to be a project manager over them all.


That's what I was getting at. Matt isn't entirely responsible for the way the Space Marines Codex turned out. Who knows what he was told from the higher ups about how to balance the book? I obviously can't know for certain, but I'd be rather surprised to find out that it was entirely his idea to spend roughly half of the fluff section on the Ultramarines. To me at least, that doesn't sound like the sort of call that someone in his position would make.



> This is my point right here. You see, the codex isn't dedicated to Ultramarines, it's dedicated to Space Marines. Even in your dislike for those who don't like the Ultramarine focus, you agree it is "dedicated" to them. This is why I drew comparisons to 2nd edition. Then the codex of 2nd ed was literally dedicated to the ultramarines. However, the current codex (at least as the title implies) was dedicated to all Space Marines who don't have their own separate codex (such as SW, BA, DA, & BT).


I actually don't dislike people who have a problem with the Ultramarine Codex. I just find the line of thinking odd for the reasons stated above.



> Necron example = no wasted money.
> SM example = money spent for pages you do not like, nor wish to read.
> 
> Imagine cracking open the pages for the first time thinking it to be a balanced treatise on "space marines," only to find out a large portion is "codex Ultramarines + a little bit about a few other chapters."
> 
> That's all we're saying... that was a bummer.


The current Codex spends a lot of time on Chapters that aren't Ultramarines. Remember, the Ultramarines are the "baseline" of what a Space Marine Chapter would be. The fluff describing Chapters like the Crimson Fists is there entirely to describe what differentiates them from the baseline. It's not meant to be a timeline of the other Chapter's victories, or an in-depth look at their inner workings. There's simply not enough space to do this in the book and still have room for anything else. The Space Marine Codex is already gigantic and has a _lot_ of background. I really get the impression that they did the best they could and I personally feel that the balance of Ultramarine vs. Not-Ultramarine stuff is pretty good all things considered.


----------



## Alsojames

By God....I think she's got it!


----------



## Captain Galus

I like the Ultramarines, I like Matt Ward and I totally understand where everyone else is coming from. I also like how my chapter is one of the "not-giving-a-fuck" chapters.

DARK ANGELS HO!!


----------



## Uber Ork

Katie Drake said:


> The current Codex spends a lot of time on Chapters that aren't Ultramarines. Remember, the Ultramarines are the "baseline" of what a Space Marine Chapter would be. The fluff describing Chapters like the Crimson Fists is there entirely to describe what differentiates them from the baseline. It's not meant to be a timeline of the other Chapter's victories, or an in-depth look at their inner workings. There's simply not enough space to do this in the book and still have room for anything else. The Space Marine Codex is already gigantic and has a _lot_ of background. I really get the impression that they did the best they could and I personally feel that the balance of Ultramarine vs. Not-Ultramarine stuff is pretty good all things considered.


I see where you're coming from, and do agree that Ultramarines are considered the epitome of what it means to be a space marine. I also get what's being said about how a majority of the existing codex adhering space marines are from their gene-seed. In the end, I don't disagree with any of those things.

I really don't have a problem with GW filling us in with how the codex came about for example, as indeed Roboute Guilliman authored it. I think it's when it goes beyond that where I get frustrated.

*The Imperial Fists* for example.... The emperors praetorians. The defenders (along with the BA's) of the imperial palace (and along with the WS) of terra. Dorn, the commander of the loyalist forces... What did they get in they get in the 144 page codex? Chapter description _(2 paragraphs),_ famous battles described -- most only a sentence or two long _(4),_ and one special character _(5 paragraphs)_. 7 paragraphs... 7. 

...8 if you add all the one to two sentence short battle descriptions together. They don't even have one story about them in the dex. That's just a travesty for a Fist fan like myself and for the chapter that...


> "are judged second only to the Ultramarines as paragons of the Adeptus Astartes, and held as exemplars of everything that a space marine is heir to."



The other 1st founding chapters?

*The Raven Guard*? Chapter description _(2 paragraphs),_ hunt for voldorus _(1 paragraph -- shared with WS),_ an alliance is forged _(6 paragraphs -- shared with WS),_ taking of mankarra _(6 paragraphs -- shared with WS),_ famous battles described (3), & one special character _(6 paragraphs). _ 

*Salamanders*? Chapter description _(3 paragraphs),_ return to armageddon _(5 paragraphs), _famous battles described _(4),_& one special character _(6 paragraphs)._ 

*White Scars*? Chapter description _(2 paragraphs),_ Hunt for voldorus _(4 paragraphs -- last paragraph shared with RG),_ an alliance is forged _(6 paragraphs -- shared with RG),_ taking of mankarra _(6 paragraphs -- shared with RG),_ famous battles described _(4),_ & one special character _(4 paragraphs)._

*Iron Hands*? Chapter description _(2 sentences),_ purge of contqual _(5 paragraphs),_ famous battles described _(1),_ & no special characters.



*The ultramarines*? The Scouring and The Codex Astartes _(6 paragraphs),_ History of the Ultramarines _(39 paragraphs),_ Battles of the Ultramarines _(59 paragraphs),_ Battles of the Ultramarines _(25 battles),_ the zeist campaign _(7 paragraphs),_ & six special characters _(34 paragraphs)._ I won't even count the ultramarine chapter organization, 2nd company example, space marine power armor, heraldry, banners, and majority of artwork & painted models that are all Ultramarine as I agree, they are the epitome of codex based marines. 



Just looking at fluff that has nothing to do with general space marine issues like heraldry or power armor where Ultramarines are simply the example that applies to everyone we have this...


Ultramarines 
-Paragraph count: 135 paragraphs of fluff
-Battles described: 25
-Special characters: 6 


All other 5 first founding chapters covered in this codex *combined*
-Paragraph count: 68 + 2 sentences of fluff
-Battles described: 16
-Special characters: 4


I think this is what I'm talking about. I hope this puts it in perspective. I don't mean to come across as whining, but more factually.

Ultramarines 135 paragraphs, 25 battles, and 6 characters to the IF's 7, 4, and 1. This for the chapter that is...


> second only to the Ultramarines...


In fact... the IF only come in ahead of the Iron Hands _(by 2 paragraphs)._ The Salamanders, Raven Guard, and White Scars are all ahead of the IF and IH's by a fair margin _(14, 20, & 22 paragraphs respectively)._

Oh well... Maybe the 6th edition dex can close the gap between the Ultras and the other 1st founding chapters a bit. One can hope at least. :biggrin:




*.*


----------



## Katie Drake

Uber Ork said:


> *The Imperial Fists* for example.... The emperors praetorians. The defenders (along with the BA's) of the imperial palace (and along with the WS) of terra. Dorn, the commander of the loyalist forces... What did they get in they get in the 144 page codex? Chapter description _(2 paragraphs),_ famous battles described -- most only a sentence or two long _(4),_ and one special character _(5 paragraphs)_. 7 paragraphs... 7.
> 
> ...8 if you add all the one to two sentence short battle descriptions together. They don't even have one story about them in the dex. That's just a travesty for a Fist fan like myself and for the chapter that...


Alright, so let's say that instead the Imperial Fists got twenty paragraphs, because that's a fairly easy number to work with. I think we can both agree that twenty paragraphs (probably a few pages) would be more than enough to give any new player a very good idea of what the Fists are all about. In fact, if it wasn't for their difficult to paint colour scheme, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of newer players ended up deciding that Imperial Fists were more their speed and decided to go with the Sons of Dorn rather than the Ultramarines.

Now... what about the other First Founding Chapters? I mean, obviously the Ultramarines deserve the lion's share of the attention since we've already established that they are the baseline that all other Chapters are compared to. And we've now talked about the Fists. So what about say... the White Scars? Since we've already spent a bunch of extra pages on the Fists, now we're running out of room since a Codex can only be so big (in fact, I'd be surprised if the writers didn't have a rough idea of how many pages they wanted the book to be before they actually finished writing it). So I guess that means that the White Scars don't get much background then and might even lose out on their special character, much like the Iron Hands did. But wait, that's not fair to the White Scars. So I guess we'll just trim the background for all the other Chapters mentioned in the book. Perhaps cut out the short bit of fluff about the World Engine...

Before you know it, the book instead is focused on the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists but anyone that's interested in any of the other Chapters gets shafted even worse than they already have been. And then we have the exact same problem.


----------



## Uber Ork

Katie Drake said:


> Perhaps cut out the short bit of fluff about the World Engine...


That part wouldn't be affected as the paragraphs I mentioned only dealt with the first founding chapters.


I'd look at it like this. All first founding paragraphs total 203 (135 Ultramarines + 68 for the other 5). It'd be cool if they gave the Ultramarines twice what the other first founding chapters had and made it something like this...

Ultramarines = 58 paragraphs
IF = 29
WS = 29
IH = 29
SAL = 29
RG = 29

Total = 203


Doing something like this would increase the non Ultramarine 1st founding content considerably, and not take away from any other chapter or generic SM coverage (like how a SM is made, heraldry, chapter organization, etc.) as I didn't include those when talking about the 203 paragraphs of fluff.

I'd also take away at least one of the Ultramarine characters and give the Iron Hands one. This way it would be Ultramarines 5 characters, other 1st founding chapters combined 5 characters.

And lastly, I'd balance the artwork and model photos a bit more, and have one large battle section that describes the ultramarines battles with a 2-1 ratio to the other first founding chapters (instead of the 7 or 8 to one ratio it currently is), etc.

Even after all that was done, the codex would still be considerably tilted towards the boys in blue (i.e. as many characters as everyone else combined as well as twice the paragraph fluff and twice the described battles of any other 1st founding chapter, etc.).




.


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## TheAbominableDan

I'm very okay with the amount of love the Ultramarines get in the codex. It's clear that the Ultramarines are an important force in 40k universe so if they didn't focus the Space Marine codex on them they'd have to release a separate codex for them. Which I don't think would be a good idea, since they're supposed to be the template that Space Marine chapters are based upon.

The Space Marine codex is actually two codexes in one. It's a generic Space Marine book but also has all the Ultramarines special characters so in a way it's codex Ultramarines too. I like it that way, I remember in the old days when if you wanted some of these nifty special characters you needed to track down the White Dwarf articles with the rules for Cassius or Invictus.

People complain about the lack of love for some of the other chapters and I suppose that's fair. However, I've been in the hobby for ten years and I've never seen an Iron Hands army. I guess the argument could be made that people would play them if they had more fluff and characters and such. But I saw White Scars armies before they had special characters or unique models. I saw Imperial Fists armies quite frequently back in the day when Lysander was a Sergeant who nobody ever fielded.

Would I like more Salamanders stuff? Probably, but I understand why they did it this way and I'm cool with it.


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## Katie Drake

Uber Ork said:


> Even after all that was done, the codex would still be considerably tilted towards the boys in blue (i.e. as many characters as everyone else combined as well as twice the paragraph fluff and twice the described battles of any other 1st founding chapter, etc.).


Seems like a decent compromise. I still have the feeling that there's a reason that GW did what they did outside of Matt Ward just having some sort of fetish for blue Space Marines though. I'm super tired right now so my ideas aren't particularly well thought out, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be confusing for a new player to read a Codex that went on in such length about other Chapters or something.

I guess what I'm really saying is that like I said above, I feel like I/we are missing something that would explain the Ultramarine bias. Before anyone starts with the accusations no I'm not a GW/Matt Ward fangirl trying to defend them/him at any cost - it just seems to me like there may be something more to it. I could easily be wrong though, it's not like GW has never done anything moronic before.


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## bitsandkits

problem is your likely looking at this from an experienced gamers point of view and not from the eyes of a new gamer who likely came to the space marine codex via assault on black reach, codex space marines heavily favours the blue lads because on continuity, GW dont want people who have just got into the hobby with a limited number of model to be thumbing through a book with a miriad of options, they want them to look through a book that says " ok so you have bought AOBR, these blue guys are this army(space marines)" same goes for the Orks, notice that very little about the clans are mentioned in the Ork codex


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## Angelus Censura

I think this could be debated upon for days and days, but it comes down to one simple factor: marketing. The writing of a codex isn't trusted entirely to an author - lets be realistic, a GW high up would not go up to Ward and say "Oi! We need a new Space Marine codex, do what the fuck you want, just have it on my desk monday morning so we can start getting those fuckers printed up!". I am fairly familiar with how businesses work, and it isn't that complicated: You have a team that decides what to include in the codex and an author or two who write what they are told was to be included in the codex, all of which would have strict guidelines according to what the higher ups believe will create sell points and increase profit margins. Hate a Black Library book? Blame the author. Hate a codex? Blame the writing TEAM and the higher ups who enforced the guidelines as to how that codex was to be written. Meanwhile, people like all of you get angry with the authors, GW gets to use those authors as figureheads and stick to the shadows, allowing the authors to take the heat. Sounds a bit like US politics...


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## DeathKlokk

It can be argued that the Ultras comprise a total of 3 Legions worth of Astartes. Since the recent HH books strongly hint that the missing Legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines after their censure. 

Also it could be argued that the imperial Fists have their fluff support through the Black Templars book, their successor chapter.


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## Uber Ork

TheAbominableDan said:


> I'm very okay with the amount of love the Ultramarines get in the codex. It's clear that the Ultramarines are an important force in 40k universe so if they didn't focus the Space Marine codex on them they'd have to release a separate codex for them.


This is a good point, and I can agree with that. For sure, where 1st founding chapters are concerned there is a dividing line between SW, BA, DA, UM, and IF, SAL, WS, RG, & IH's.







TheAbominableDan said:


> The Space Marine codex is actually two codexes in one. It's a generic Space Marine book but also has all the Ultramarines special characters so in a way it's codex Ultramarines too.


Another good point. I can see what you're saying, and that makes sense. Don't like it... but it makes sense. 





TheAbominableDan said:


> People complain about the lack of love for some of the other chapters and I suppose that's fair. However, I've been in the hobby for ten years and I've never seen an Iron Hands army. I guess the argument could be made that people would play them if they had more fluff and characters and such. But I saw White Scars armies before they had special characters or unique models. I saw Imperial Fists armies quite frequently back in the day when Lysander was a Sergeant who nobody ever fielded.


I've played since the early 90's and second edition, and you're right, I've never seen an IH army (in person anyway) either. I see Salamanders the mosts, followed by Fists and Scars. Come to think of it I've never seen a RG army in person either, but I'm sure they're more popular due to Shrike than IH's.

This goes into Angelus Censura's point...




Angelus Censura said:


> I think this could be debated upon for days and days, but it comes down to one simple factor: marketing.


Clearly GW is a business and they'll do whatever their research tells them will make their business successful. I do not blame them for this as some people do. I don't have access to their numbers, but clearly I see more ultramarine armies out there than any of the other 5 1st founding chapters other than Salamanders.

This brings up a good point however. Why is that? Why do we see as many Salamander armies as we do UM's? 

I think most of us would agree it's because they got some GW love. Since the Armageddon codex and some fluff and special characters came out for them up until GW giving them a rock hard, fluffy, special character to build an army around I've seen more and more people play them.

This brings us back to TheAbominableDan's point... 




TheAbominableDan said:


> I guess the argument could be made that people would play them if they had more fluff and characters and such.


I think if you give people really cool fluff and special characters that inspire the imagination, more people will play them. I saw a lot more IF armies back in 4th ed because of Lysander's cool and fluffy rules about terminators teleporting en masse from the phaylanx.







Katie Drake said:


> I'm wondering if it wouldn't be confusing for a new player to read a Codex that went on in such length about other Chapters or something.
> 
> I guess what I'm really saying is that like I said above, I feel like I/we are missing something that would explain the Ultramarine bias.


AND



bitsandkits said:


> problem is your likely looking at this from an experienced gamers point of view and not from the eyes of a new gamer who likely came to the space marine codex via assault on black reach, codex space marines heavily favours the blue lads because on continuity, GW dont want people who have just got into the hobby with a limited number of model to be thumbing through a book with a miriad of options, they want them to look through a book that says " ok so you have bought AOBR, these blue guys are this army(space marines)" same goes for the Orks, notice that very little about the clans are mentioned in the Ork codex


Yes. I can see what you're both saying. This ties into what TheAbominableDan was saying about it really being two codexes in one. Essentially an Ultramarine codex, that you can use to play all vanilla chapters with. This is exactly what it was in 2nd ed with Codex Ultramarines. It's just that back then the title left no doubt. This title, "Codex Space Marines," gave the expectation (to me anyway) of a more balanced approach which didn't happen. That bums me out as an IF player, which...

...leads to the point DeathKlokk made.




DeathKlokk said:


> it could be argued that the imperial Fists have their fluff support through the Black Templars book, their successor chapter.


Yes, I see what you're saying, but it would be like telling a Dark Angel player that a book about the Angels of Absolution takes care of the Dark Angels fluff. Yes they have the same roots but a lot has happened in 10,000 years and most of the BT fluff focuses on the BT's after the 2nd founding.




In the end... I guess it just comes down to personal preference of which I am one person in a sea of people. GW isn't concerned about pleasing everyone all the time because you can't do that. If they feel the majority responds to the Ultramarines, I can understand that and accept it, but in the same breath can challenge GW to expand it's horizons. 

I never saw one Salamandars or BT army until after codex Armageddon. Since that time those two armies grew in popularity, one so much, that GW felt the interest in them warranted the release of it's own codex.

It's all about sales, I get that. So inspire people like you did with codex Armageddon. Write more fluff, make cooler and more interesting fluff centered special characters like He'stan and watch people purchase new models, etc.

Supporting a completely independent codex and model range is a huge undertaking, and I'm not asking for that. Increasing the amount and quality of fluff and special characters in the space marine codex is a reasonable, doable goal that makes financial sense.

I don't know of one person who fields Cassius or Chronus. There's a lot of space marine players out there, and either in person or in army lists on the net I have never seen them used. However, I see tons of people use Pedro & Vulkan. Why? Because they have cool useful rules, cool models, cool fluff, and can be used to create a characterful Crimson Fist or Salamander themed army. 

To me this makes sense both from a fan point of view, and from a marketing standpoint. Cool rules, and cool miniatures = people buying and playing. GW has used this formula to extreme success already and can use this in the future to expand the playability and interest in other vanilla armies for a marginal cost in codex space and special character models.

Take the template used for increasing interest and sales in BT's and Salamanders and do that in the next SM dex for IF's and WS's at least (as I already see those armies around). Please. ...do I sound like I'm begging? Cause I totally am. :laugh:

Seriously though... I think the financial points make sense.




.


----------



## LordWaffles

djinn24 said:


> Troll much? Seriously if your not adding anything but picking on a persons punctuation or spelling then don't post.


I'll simply comment on this as I'm far too busy being a multi-millionaire skydiving with movie stars to write an analytical rant about matt ward. But this point right here:


djinn24 said:


> if your not adding anything but picking on a persons punctuation or spelling then don't post.


This is fucking brilliant. Should be a mandatory rule unless you post like you rolled a cat on a keyboard for a couple minutes then hit the "Send" button.

Also as rational, thinking human beings some of us in this thread might want to step back and review their posts since this is such a personal topic worthy of debate. Just try to make concise arguments refuting the original idea if you disagree with it, instead of trying to refute the poster themselves. I'd hate to see this one spiral as it's incredibly interesting.


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## Tarvitz210300

jaws900 said:


> Here here.
> I have no problems with the guy him self other than the fluff bit but i'm sure there are many others who have done simular things such as the person who killed the race that we must never mention again:victory:


who are these i am new ive only played this edition


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## Baron Spikey

Tarvitz210300 said:


> who are these i am new ive only played this edition


Then thank which ever deity you sacrifice to and ask no more.


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## TheAbominableDan

Uber Ork said:


> I think most of us would agree it's because they got some GW love. Since the Armageddon codex and some fluff and special characters came out for them up until GW giving them a rock hard, fluffy, special character to build an army around I've seen more and more people play them..


I loves my Armageddon codex, and I miss those types of books but that was a much smaller risk for GW as a company than releasing a Space Marine codex with a heavy focus on another chapter. The Salamanders love did work but it doesn't always work that way. Steel Legion got the love in that book and I didn't see too many of those armies. One I think, maybe two.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love more stuff for every chapter, except maybe Raven Guard, they're kinda boring. But I don't relate wanting more stuff for others to disliking how much stuff the Ultramarines got. Also I hate to say it, but people are going to complain no matter what. If next codex they remove a bunch of the Ultramarines characters people are going to complain about that. Iron Hands? Nobody plays them but their cause is being championed in this thread. You know you can play them even if the Space Marine codex doesn't have a healthy heaping of Iron Hands fluff or a special character for them right?

I play Alpha Legion, they don't exactly have the largest amount of fluff in the Chaos codex, they don't have a special character. Didn't stop me from playing them.

Yes fluff for more chapters is better. But when they did it in the old day with Index Astartes, nobody bought it.

I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself so I'm gonna end this now.


----------



## SilverTabby

Uber Ork said:


> Also, while I'm not into personal attacks on people I don't know, I do think GW is responsible for the products they produce good or bad. If they run out of time, weren't able to play test, chose someone who makes final decisions that may not be the best, etc. ...who's fault is that? Those things can only rest on their shoulders.
> 
> As the old adage goes, the consumer's always right. Why? Because if you want the consumer to buy your product, you better care about what they think. As I'm sure GW does care (they didn't get this successful by not caring), it seems wise to seek the input of the consumer.
> 
> As a consumer, I think the space marine codex should have been more balanced. If they wanted to make it mainly about Ultramarines + a little bit about other chapters, then name it (as they did in 2nd ed. Codex Ultramarines).


You know what? I totally agree with you. Everything you have said here makes good and perfect sense. 

Thing is, the frontline-studio folk all agree too. They listen to discussions had at Games Days, they take on board the things people tell them and point out (so long as it's done rationally and intelligently, not ranted at them at loud volume from a crowd at Games Day when they started work at 4am and haven't been able to have their lunch break yet). Some even surf forums like these. However, the higher-ups I mentioned don't tend to do that so much. They are very much more driven by either the marketing and profit side of things, or the cast-iron knowledge that _THIS IS HOW THIS ARMY SHOULD BE, WRITE IT LIKE THIS_ (and yes, that comes complete with the darkening of skies and rolls of thunder). They are the ones that are much harder to shift in their opinions, and frequently it's only sales figures that will do it...



> If you say Alan Merritt is to blame, I would be fine with that. I would direct my comments to him and say Mr. Merritt, can you please have the next space marine codex more evenly represent a wider variety of first founding chapters.


I would dearly love to see that conversation :biggrin:


----------



## Master WootWoot

My problem isn't that he says that the smurfs are best, but that he puts other chapters at the sideline. And... There are *SIX* smurf special characters, but all other chapters have max 1 represented in the codex. Why not Cortez, Pugh and Gurava? (Ok, I made him up)


----------



## Champion Alaric

I seen lots o posts aboot him being a fanboy..but wouldnt you WANT a fan of the army to write the book? I mean then he is putting 100 percent into it because he's, well, into it? So much hatred against GW and this Ward guy..for what? A game..a game that, if it wasnt for GW and guys like Mr Ward you wouldn't even have in the first place..what, u think the big wigs at GW sit at a jet black table drinking port, surrounded by butlers, and cackle over how all these stupid gamers buy their product and gloat over all the money they make from us poor saps? Last time i checked GW was not on the cover of Forbes. Y'all act like these guys wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills..everyones a critic and a tough guy behind a keyboard. if i met Mr Ward, or Matt or whatever Id shake his hand and say "Thanks for puttin work in."

I know this thread is dead but goddamn i just dont get it.


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## Tarvitz210300

Doelago said:


> The Adeptus Astartes are known for their awesomeness, unlike their heretical counterparts.


Yeah 5 space marines kill a hole necron tomb how those that work. Mesphiton kills about 10000 tyranids dies and is reborn WTF.

Mean while billions of chaos space Marines can't take Cadia I think it is because they don't want to make the empires fall seem so hopeless (if you can't tell I support chaos) 

Tarvitz out


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## Baron Spikey

Tarvitz210300 said:


> Yeah 5 space marines kill a hole necron tomb how those that work. Mesphiton kills about 10000 tyranids dies and is reborn WTF.


Is the Necron Tomb thing a reference to the World Engine incident? If it is then it was a LOT more than 5 Marines. It was an entire Chapter drop podding on to it and causing just enough damage to bring it's shields down whilst a fleet made up of a huge Imperial Battlefleet and the ships from 12 Astartes Chapters bombarded it.



Tarvitz210300 said:


> Mean while billions of chaos space Marines can't take Cadia I think it is because they don't want to make the empires fall seem so hopeless (if you can't tell I support chaos)
> 
> Tarvitz out


You mean thousands of Chaos Space Marines don't you, not billions?


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## Djinn24

Champion Alaric said:


> I seen lots o posts aboot him being a fanboy..but wouldnt you WANT a fan of the army to write the book? I mean then he is putting 100 percent into it because he's, well, into it? So much hatred against GW and this Ward guy..for what? A game..a game that, if it wasnt for GW and guys like Mr Ward you wouldn't even have in the first place..what, u think the big wigs at GW sit at a jet black table drinking port, surrounded by butlers, and cackle over how all these stupid gamers buy their product and gloat over all the money they make from us poor saps? Last time i checked GW was not on the cover of Forbes. Y'all act like these guys wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills..everyones a critic and a tough guy behind a keyboard. if i met Mr Ward, or Matt or whatever Id shake his hand and say "Thanks for puttin work in."
> 
> I know this thread is dead but goddamn i just dont get it.


we have to hate someone, right ow the flavor of the week it is Matt Ward, last edition it was someone else. Now we complain about smurfs, last edition it was another army, before that it was Eldar and chaos cheese.

If we didn't bitch about something all of our heads would explode like when a Eldar dreadnought's soulstone was exposed next to a psycher. Gives us something to do, if I ended up meeting him in RL I would go into fanboy mode I am sure.


----------



## Arm1tage

Is Matt Ward the result of cutting costs?

I'm presuming so because the Necron codex had like 5 people credited as writers, and now all of a sudden one man is doing several codices.

If so the result would obviously be sub par (in any field really), regardless of the man's intentions. Quantity and quality generally don't go together. Unless you're Dostoyevsky or something.


----------



## Karak The Unfaithful

If this guy did write the chaos daemons codex then I shall switch to 3rd edition chaos daemons!


----------



## Baron Spikey

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> If this guy did write the chaos daemons codex then I shall switch to 3rd edition chaos daemons!


You forgot to add the Laughing Smilie so we'd know that was a joke...


----------



## BearingTheWord

Stella Cadente said:


> there easy targets.


You brits are just still pissed that we kicked your arse at least twice in the last 200 years, and then had to turn around and save it from the Germans twice in the last 100....Here...have another lemon.....:friends:

Anyhow on topic.... No one is ever happy with those who tinker, tweak and "adjust" the rules and fluff of the games they love as we all develop a certain idea of how things "should" be and any deviation from what we have created in our minds tends to seem like an insult directed at us. Just have to remember it's a game. It's meant to be played, and play means "to have fun". If your not having fun, and are bitter all the time, then you're not "playing" are ya....Life's too short to waste it sucking on lemons and sharing the sour....:bye:

So.......


(Putting in the/sarcasm disclaimer here...If you can't tell the whole Brit/Yank rivalry thing is meant to be sarcasm...If it weren't for you wonderful Brits we wouldn't have this wonderful hobby!)


----------



## Baron Spikey

BearingTheWord said:


> You brits are just still pissed that we kicked your arse at least twice in the last 200 years, and then had to turn around and save it from the Germans twice in the last 100....Here...have another lemon.....:friends:


Hahahahaha

Once and once you mean 

Thanks for McDonalds and KFC America, many an alcohol induced blackout has been postponed and a hang over lessened by their greasy treats.


----------



## Serpion5

Baron Spikey said:


> Is the Necron Tomb thing a reference to the World Engine incident? If it is then it was a LOT more than 5 Marines. It was an entire Chapter drop podding on to it and causing just enough damage to bring it's shields down whilst a fleet made up of a huge Imperial Battlefleet and the ships from 12 Astartes Chapters bombarded it.



No, I think he`s referencing an exerpt from the Necron codex. A Deathwatch Kill Team fire tracer rounds into a necron warrior and follow its teleportation back to its home tomb. Then they infiltrate, plant charges and teleport out before the tomb goes up in smoke. 

It`s a short piece towards the back of the `dex and makes the necs look pretty stupid. I don`t like it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Serpion5 said:


> No, I think he`s referencing an exerpt from the Necron codex. A Deathwatch Kill Team fire tracer rounds into a necron warrior and follow its teleportation back to its home tomb. Then they infiltrate, plant charges and teleport out before the tomb goes up in smoke.
> 
> It`s a short piece towards the back of the `dex and makes the necs look pretty stupid. I don`t like it.


Yeah that's based on a White Dwarf Battle Report.


----------



## Arm1tage

To get back on topic, I've substantial proof that Matt Ward is Osama Bin Laden.


----------



## gingerfeller

you got to love americans 


> You brits are just still pissed that we kicked your arse at least twice in the last 200 years, and then had to turn around and save it from the Germans twice in the last 100....Here...have another lemon.....


 Maybe we should call them the Dark Angels sitting out of all the major wars until the result is improving for the side of the allies as Hitler (Horus) had been slowed to the point of failure. Granted they did speed up the end of the war but to say they saved our asses would be a pretty big call. 

But back on track, Matt Ward is just a bloke that has a clouded opinion of his force same as all people who are passionate about their force, all he wants to do is do the best he can for any codex he does but in doing so he induces a codex creep by improving the codex hes currently doing to such a point it breaks the whole gaming system.


----------



## Katie Drake

gingerfeller said:


> But back on track, Matt Ward is just a bloke that has a clouded opinion of his force same as all people who are passionate about their force, all he wants to do is do the best he can for any codex he does but in doing so he induces a codex creep by improving the codex hes currently doing to such a point it breaks the whole gaming system.


What are you talking about? Seriously, what Codex has Matt Ward written that's so overpowered that it has broken the game?


----------



## BearingTheWord

Baron Spikey said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> Once and once you mean
> 
> Thanks for McDonalds and KFC America, many an alcohol induced blackout has been postponed and a hang over lessened by their greasy treats.


Nope twice and twice: 

The Revolutionary War and the War of 1812

And WWI (okay this one's debatable but we still entered at your request according to some sources...) and WWII....:victory:


----------



## gingerfeller

I didnt word that very well did i.... what i ment was its not just his fault that ALL new codex appear to improve the army their written about until they have to rewrite the whole gaming system, hence the reason why we are now on the 8th version of 40K.

it was meant to be a half asses defence of the feller


----------



## gingerfeller

Bearing the word you must have different history books over there 
the revolutionary war where you say you kicked our ass i think you will find that you had some allies inthe name of France so you can say that you and France kicked our ass. 

the war of 1812 well you did win some battles we burned down your white house but in the end we both occupied each others territory so at best its a draw.. 

he he he you americans always making things out to be bigger and better than they are. :wink: just joking


----------



## Baron Spikey

BearingTheWord said:


> Nope twice and twice:
> 
> The Revolutionary War and the War of 1812
> 
> And WWI (okay this one's debatable but we still entered at your request according to some sources...) and WWII....:victory:


America didn't win the War of 1812, at best you drew.


----------



## LukeValantine

Canada FTW?


----------



## Katie Drake

LukeValantine said:


> Canada FTW?


Pretty much.


----------



## Baron Spikey

LukeValantine said:


> Canada FTW?


I'd certainly give it to Canada over the US, and the Brits didn't actually care (relatively of course)- compared to the the war in Europe this was just a pissing match for us.

@USA- When you don't achieve your aims as an aggressor I'd seriously reconsider calling it a victory.


On Topic- I like Matt Ward despite his occasional fanboyism, and no despite my Avatar I'm not an Ultramarines fan (but I'm also not a hater).


----------



## gingerfeller

Im with the canadians. just to show im not american bashing i do think that their contribution in the second world war in the pacific was large but they do tend to forget that the war had been runbling on for years before they joined in. the americans didnt win these wars they joined the allies and helped to speed up the victory to say anything more belittles the contributions from all the other nations involved. 

we as a team won.


----------



## LukeValantine

Oh Canada the land of people abandoned by their home land, first France then Britain. Now we are stuck as the quite brother of a paranoid rage aholic, whispering coming words in his ear so he doesn't flip out....mind you he still does, but we tried.

Go team justice! The other team regardless who is on it will always be team super evil.


----------



## LordWaffles

Serpion5 said:


> It`s a short piece towards the back of the `dex and makes the necs look pretty stupid. I don`t like it.


Do you know fluffwise how many chaos space marines we lose to rogue hero ultramarines? Did you watch the ultramarines movie? We had to throw 30 dudes just to exhaust their first round of bolter fire. We're like goddamn gaunts nowadays.

If they keep writing us as being goofy villains from nineties cartoons we're going to become environmentally protected, like marshlands, or rainforests.

Seriously on the MATT WARD ULTRAMEHREENS codex they're shooting down at least five of the thousand-year-old fucks with minimal casualties.

Hell chaos doesn't do well even in it's own codex(Kharn story.), and the tyranid codex makes us look like a joke(They unfortified the chapter best known for hunkering down in chaos?)

Either way, not rezzing a dead topic just to complain. But perhaps we could make a conducive, agreeable list about everything he's done incorrectly(Not just things we don't like, but glaring flaws. Be descriptive!)


----------



## BearingTheWord

gingerfeller said:


> Im with the canadians. just to show im not american bashing i do think that their contribution in the second world war in the pacific was large but they do tend to forget that the war had been runbling on for years before they joined in. the americans didnt win these wars they joined the allies and helped to speed up the victory to say anything more belittles the contributions from all the other nations involved.
> 
> *we as a team won.*


(Bold emphasis mine)

I wholeheartedly agree with this....and it's just so fun jabbing elbows with everyone, as every nation has their own perspectives and biases....Kinda like all of us regarding this game we play and the folks who develop/contribute/create it. :grin: (<----See...an on-topic comment/observation, lol)

And yes the Canadians brought us Hockey and "Strangebrew" and puck-bunnies...They can't be that bad! :crazy:


----------



## Champion Alaric

And yes the Canadians brought us Hockey and "Strangebrew" and puck-bunnies...They can't be that bad! :crazy:[/quote]

Im not your pal buddy :grin:

I guess if you have never seen the South Park movie that would make no sense..


----------



## Orochi

Well, the fact he has personally typed Marneus Calgars entry in his own cum in EVERY codex.

I guess one could assume that is something that could be classed as wrong...


----------



## Tim/Steve

Yes he is hated and rightly so... he fecked about with fluff making some races look awesome and some pansies (the whole point is that they are balanced- either in numbers or effect) and he makes stupidly powerful dexs/army books which unbalance the whole game and feck with everyone that plays the game.

If you see Matt Ward is down to write the next codex for your army you know 2 things: how you think about your army will get shifted and in six months time all your friends will call you a beardy bastard.


----------



## Uber Ork

Wow... this thread is _*still*_ going.


Well... might as well get caught up then. :biggrin:





TheAbominableDan said:


> I loves my Armageddon codex, and I miss those types of books but that was a much smaller risk for GW as a company than releasing a Space Marine codex with a heavy focus on another chapter. The Salamanders love did work but it doesn't always work that way. Steel Legion got the love in that book and I didn't see too many of those armies. One I think, maybe two.


BT, Sallies, and Orks all benefited greatly from the Armegeddon codex. I've not seen as much steel legion love by the consumer, but I think that had to do with GW creating a new range of models verses advancing existing armies. Orks, Sallies, and BT's could be created and played using already existing models + a few special characters (although later more special characters + a BT conversion kit etc. was created). To make matters worse the SL models were all metal verses the marine and Ork armies that had plastic kits for their core troops.

In the end we have a 3 to 1 success story for the Armageddon dex. IMO, for very little investment on GW's end excited gamers were energized to start new armies and purchase the new special characters, use the new rules, etc.

This created more fun for the consumer and more profits for GW. A win/win in my book. I'd love to see something like this in the next SM dex. A few more special characters that provide a few more army specific rules would be very doable. This coupled with imaginative fluff could spark more sales like codex Armageddon did. 






SilverTabby said:


> I would dearly love to see that conversation :biggrin:


I would dearly like to have it. :biggrin: 






Champion Alaric said:


> I seen lots o posts aboot him being a fanboy..but wouldnt you WANT a fan of the army to write the book? I mean then he is putting 100 percent into it because he's, well, into it?


I couldn't agree with you more... I just wish he was a fan of the other 1st founding & popular 2nd founding chapters too. :grin:






gingerfeller said:


> you got to love americans
> 
> Maybe we should call them the Dark Angels sitting out of all the major wars until the result is improving for the side of the allies as Hitler (Horus) had been slowed to the point of failure. Granted they did speed up the end of the war but to say they saved our @#!*% would be a pretty big call.


Well, if you start with the Battle of the River Plate in September 1939 (the 1st major naval engagement between Great Britain and Germany) where the HMS Exeter, Ajax, and Achilles squared off against the German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee, and go until the U.S. entered the war in December 1941, we missed 2.3 years of a 6 year war ending with the official surrender of Japan in Sept. 1945. If you start thinking about Britain's involvement in the war from when the war in the Atlantic really heated up in the 40's or the German invasion of France (the 1st major ground conflict including BEF) in May 1940, we missed slightly less.

Besides, I would think it also important to take into account the aid we provided via lend lease act, at that point only a year and a half into the war. I trust the $31.4 billion dollars worth of supplies and war material sent to Britain, the $11.3 billion sent to the Soviet Union, the $3.2 billion to France and the $1.6 billion to China was useful. :grin: Using an inflation calculator that $31.4 billion in the 1940's would calculate out to $484.3 billion today. Nearly a half a trillion in todays dollars just because we love you! :thank_you: :friends:

I agree that saying we saved your back side is a bit much as it was Hitler's own stupidity that caused him to stop bombing the RAF airfields, infrastructure, and production and switch to civilian targets. After that, and Britain's subsequent victory over Germany in the Battle of Britain, Germany wouldn't have posed a major threat to the UK again unless the Soviet Union had fallen. To that end... you have to ask yourself... what would have happened in the east if D-Day or Operation Torch and the subsequent invasion of Italy would've never happened?

Could the UK have beat the U-Boat threat in the Atlantic if the U.S. wouldn't have sold all those ships at 10% their value, or pulled off D-Day, or Operation Torch, or the invasion of Sicily and eventually Italy to help relieve pressure off the Soviets by keeping German divisions tied down in France and Italy, or liberate Tunisia, invade Sicily, and eventually knock Italy out of the war, etc. if the U.S. wasn't involved?

Think about just D-Day. No lend lease Sherman's or ships etc., no 73,000 U.S. soldiers landing at Utah & Omaha beaches and in airborne operations on D-Day, no Higgins boats, no U.S. aircraft or ships in support of the landing? Not to mention landing further troops for the subsequent liberation of France and invasion of Germany?

Here's a good indicator of what we contributed in WWII. At Great Britain and the U.S.'s hight (1943), Great Britain fielded a total of 39 divisions. The U.S.? *95* :biggrin:

I think comparing the U.S.'s involvement in WWII to the DA's who missed practically the whole Heresy due to internecine warfare isn't *exactly* accurate. :grin: :laugh:






Baron Spikey said:


> America didn't win the War of 1812, at best you drew.


AND



Baron Spikey said:


> @USA- When you don't achieve your aims as an aggressor I'd seriously reconsider calling it a victory.


Yes, I agree with you here. The war of 1812 was more of a draw, not the decisive victory that the Revolutionary war, WWI, and WWII were. Obviously we all worked together for the last two. :biggrin: 

The U.S. did not achieve it's war aims of annexing Canada, etc. however, the U.S. did come out ahead in total territory and in assuring our continued independence, so in that way it's often seen as coming out ahead. But you guys are right, that war was not decisive for either side by any means.






gingerfeller said:


> we as a team won.


I agree wholeheartedly. :good: Yeah team allies!! :victory: 






Tim/Steve said:


> If you see Matt Ward is down to write the next codex for your army you know 2 things: how you think about your army will get shifted and in six months time all your friends will call you a beardy @#!*% .


:laugh: That's funny, I like that. :good: 

I don't think all his codices (where 40K's concerned) are overpowered. Of the two he's written for 40K, I don't think Vanilla SM's are nearly as powerful as BA's, and to be fair... for high powered codices we also have to thank Phil Kelly (SW) and Robin Cruddace (IG). 




.


----------



## SheedRanko

Mat Ward is a GW employee. i think that explains everything.


----------



## All_Is_Dust

this thread should remain dust


----------



## Azkaellon

Tim/Steve said:


> Yes he is hated and rightly so... he fecked about with fluff making some races look awesome and some pansies (the whole point is that they are balanced- either in numbers or effect) and he makes stupidly powerful dexs/army books which unbalance the whole game and feck with everyone that plays the game.
> 
> If you see Matt Ward is down to write the next codex for your army you know 2 things: how you think about your army will get shifted and in six months time all your friends will call you a beardy bastard.


^
What reaper said is pretty much all true......EXCEPT he forgot to mention the only one who likes matt ward...is Matt ward.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Now I think more about this I don't think my problem lies with the amount of Ultra fluff in in the Space Marine Codex but more how this fluff kinda almost shoehorns players into strictly playing a "codex" army. 

My problem is that I remember the days of the old 4th ed marine codex where one could have abilities to split it off from "codex" chapters and it is these that I dearly miss. I doubt they will return since when they came about many players (and the same happened with Chaos Legions) took advantages of the rules to make unbeatable lists. If they brought back some of the chapter traits with bigger deficits then it would make me, as someone who wants to use a "non codex" chapter without having to buy a different codex based on an army that I have no intention of playing (SW, BA, BT and DA's), a lot happier.


----------



## darklove

By all the godz! Let this thread die! 
I wholeheartedly welcome new people to the forum, but could we please have a system where their first 20 posts are vetted by a Mod?


----------



## Doelago

darklove said:


> I wholeheartedly welcome new people to the forum, but could we please have a system where their first 20 posts are vetted by a Mod?


Uh, no. Just no.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

Well, this thread is apparently pretty old, but I just had to read it after LOL'ing at the title. I'd laugh if all of the seemingly ridiculous Ward fluff somehow ties together into an epic, yet convoluted, plot that will make us all respect him in the end.

Also, I just saw a pig flying past my window.


----------



## Alsojames

I read this thread to see if I had already commented on it and, if I hadn't, to comment on it.

Seeing that I had already commented (twice) I feel there is no reason to be here other than telling you that I have no reason to be here other than telling you I have no reason to be here.

Good day.


----------



## Hayden86

Davidicus 40k said:


> Well, this thread is apparently pretty old, but I just had to read it after LOL'ing at the title. I'd laugh if all of the seemingly ridiculous Ward fluff somehow ties together into an epic, yet convoluted, plot that will make us all respect him in the end.
> 
> Also, I just saw a pig flying past my window.


:laugh: LOL i about busted a stich. 

I will kiss Ward's ass when he puts down the bong and puts down the ice cream.



Alsojames said:


> I read this thread to see if I had already commented on it and, if I hadn't, to comment on it.
> 
> Seeing that I had already commented (twice) I feel there is no reason to be here other than telling you that I have no reason to be here other than telling you I have no reason to be here.
> 
> Good day.



Im in the same boat with you ^ 

I wanted to post but what i wanted too say has been posted. 

:drinks:


----------



## Achaylus72

I once tried to write a "Codex" for my Sons of Achaylus and i have somewhat a good imagination and a little flair for creative writing, i found it very difficult to write a "Codex: Son of Achaylus" and gave up on it.

So i have a lot of respect for anyone that can put together a Codex.


----------



## Hayden86

Achaylus72 said:


> I once tried to write a "Codex" for my Sons of Achaylus and i have somewhat a good imagination and a little flair for creative writing, i found it very difficult to write a "Codex: Son of Achaylus" and gave up on it.
> 
> So i have a lot of respect for anyone that can put together a Codex.



I do like his fluff work but i can't stand the mans in game work. 

Not trying to be a stick in the mud or throw up whats already been said...but the Blood angels stats and magic land raider really, really pissed me off. When i 1st got a look at it i was happy to see and read new fluff but when i got to the stats...not so much. I even called it a broken codex at 1st read. 

Ward can sit down and write some pretty cool fluff but after he gets me all hot and ready shoves a deep striking landraider right up my back door... thats depressing. 

At least it confirms that the author is aware that balance is not always an important ingredient.

I will bitch and throw a fit when new "awesome" things come out in a dex that will blow a hole right in my army before turn 3. But i will get over myself. 


I see why GW pays Ward.


----------



## Alsojames

Hayden86 said:


> I do like his fluff work but i can't stand the mans in game work.
> 
> Not trying to be a stick in the mud or throw up whats already been said...but the Blood angels stats and magic land raider really, really pissed me off. When i 1st got a look at it i was happy to see and read new fluff but when i got to the stats...not so much. I even called it a broken codex at 1st read.
> 
> Ward can sit down and write some pretty cool fluff but after he gets me all hot and ready shoves a deep striking landraider right up my back door... thats depressing.
> 
> At least it confirms that the author is aware that balance is not always an important ingredient.
> 
> I will bitch and throw a fit when new "awesome" things come out in a dex that will blow a hole right in my army before turn 3. But i will get over myself.
> 
> 
> I see why GW pays Ward.


 

What about deep-striking Monoliths? How come no one has mentioned deep striking monoliths?


----------



## darklove

Alsojames said:


> What about deep-striking Monoliths? How come no one has mentioned deep striking monoliths?


Monoliths have always been able to deep-strike. What is your point?


----------



## broran

darklove said:


> Monoliths have always been able to deep-strike. What is your point?


perhaps he was talking about the monolith loseing all its specal ds rules yet still being forced to ds when in reserves


----------



## Serpion5

broran said:


> perhaps he was talking about the monolith loseing all its specal ds rules yet still being forced to ds when in reserves


That isn't such an issue. Deepstriking is far from essential to a good strategy anyway.


----------



## SilverTabby

I think his point is that bitching is happening about an AV14 deepstriking vehicle (which, to be fair, was added to an army where all your troops can DS if they want to), yet no mention has been made of the other AV14 vehicle that can DS like the Monolith.


----------



## pathwinder14

bitsandkits said:


> ... his codex's are far better than any of the codex's produced by anyone on any internet forum....


Agreed. He gave gamers lots of flexibility in their codecies that allowed them to create more unique army builds.

Some of his rules are powerful, but I'm willing to bet they were 6th ed influenced so as not to be sub par as soon as 6th hits tables.


----------



## D-A-C

Jesus Christ this thread has 30000+ views. Seems like people certainly no who Matt Ward is now.


----------



## Warlock in Training

LordWaffles said:


> Do you know fluffwise how many chaos space marines we lose to rogue hero ultramarines? Did you watch the ultramarines movie? We had to throw 30 dudes just to exhaust their first round of bolter fire. We're like goddamn gaunts nowadays.
> 
> If they keep writing us as being goofy villains from nineties cartoons we're going to become environmentally protected, like marshlands, or rainforests.
> 
> Seriously on the MATT WARD ULTRAMEHREENS codex they're shooting down at least five of the thousand-year-old fucks with minimal casualties.
> 
> Hell chaos doesn't do well even in it's own codex(Kharn story.), and the tyranid codex makes us look like a joke(They unfortified the chapter best known for hunkering down in chaos?)
> 
> Either way, not rezzing a dead topic just to complain. But perhaps we could make a conducive, agreeable list about everything he's done incorrectly(Not just things we don't like, but glaring flaws. Be descriptive!)


HE SPEAKS THE TRUTH. (Burns Chaos tatoo off while crying)

Thats how I feel anyways. So Bad I had to play IG..... fucking Guardsman!


----------



## Some Call Me... TIM

Well I hope GW is really getting a boost in sales lately. I truly do. I think its sad that people have to force themselves to use his fiction as canon. Looking at the fluff threads even the people who have made peace with his stuff have a hard time explaining it.


----------



## Katie Drake

Some Call Me... TIM said:


> Well I hope GW is really getting a boost in sales lately. I truly do. I think its sad that people have to force themselves to use his fiction as canon. Looking at the fluff threads even the people who have made peace with his stuff have a hard time explaining it.


Nobody's forced to do anything. People choose to take whatever was written most recently as "official" when GW themselves have said on many occasions that it's all official and that people are free to decide for themselves because the fluff isn't an ongoing narrative but a backdrop. But... people ignore that time and again. =/ Why I do not know.


----------



## Wusword77

Katie Drake said:


> But... people ignore that time and again. =/ Why I do not know.


Cause if they listened to you they'd have nothing to complain about.


----------



## MidnightKid333

He wanted to give scarabs the same effect as the Anaphylactic Shock Rule for the Tyranid Malanthrope. 

He said that the scarabs were "magical" Scarabs! 

-.-


----------



## Katie Drake

Wusword77 said:


> Cause if they listened to you they'd have nothing to complain about.


What's sad is that that's probably not far from the truth.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

Sigh.

Ok folks just give me a minute to quote myself here...



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Forget 1d4chan, it's just bluster and hatemongering.
> 
> For the most part, Mat Ward is disliked because people use him as a simple scape goat. They blame him for the following;
> 
> They claim that he writes terrible unbalanced rule sets. He does not, they are in fact well balanced and unique against other 5th ed rule sets. It's just that they destroy things prior to that due to them not being designed against each other.
> 
> They claim that he is an Ultramarines fan who loves Ultramarines so much that he offended every other space marine player with claims like "3/5ths of the Space Marine chapters veiw Marneus Calgar as their spiritual leige." and the fact that the Codex:Space Marines contains primarily UM fluff. This all could have been easily avoided by naming it Codex: Ultramarines, but I digress.
> 
> They claim that he ruined the Space Wolf and Blood Angels codexes by creating the phenomenon of "Blood Angel captains using blood bolters with blood rounds and bloody blood blood of blood." or the Space Wolves with Canis Wolfborn, thunderwolves and wolfywolfwolf mcwolf. THe fact is there are only 4 things with "Blood" in their name in the Blood Angels codex, and he did not even WRITE the Space Wolf codex, but he is of course, still blamed with for this.
> 
> He is blamed for the fairly silly look of Dreadknights, which he likely, not being a concept artist OR sculptor, had no control over.
> 
> He is blamed for a peice of fluff of Necrons and Blood Angels forming a breif alliance of convienence (and mentioing the blood angels found the idea of turning on the necrons DISTASTEFUL, this I will put at his feet, if he had stopped a sentence earlier, everything would have been fine, but NOOO he had to keep going.)
> 
> He is now being blamed for the changes in Necron fluff, but once again, this was likely GW mandated, so he can hardly be blamed for that one.
> 
> And finally, he is an, at best, mediocre writer. TO which I say, "eh, get the man a better editor."
> 
> And that is why people hate Mat Ward.


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## RAM21201

well besides his hard on for the boys in blue and just writting fluff that makes Gato look like Abnett, besides all that ward earned my strong dislike with his super awesome khorne knights! k so C:GKs has the most pure and uncorruptable force in the galaxy (besides the custodes) freely practice in heresy pretty much. the only way to defeat a khorne greater demon is to slaughter all the uncorrupted sisters of battle and smear their holy and o so pure blood all over your armour so that you dont get corrupted? funny how never before in the history of the grey knights has one fallen to chaos. but theyll use the blood in the innocent juuuuust to make sure? WTF. O and lets not forget the solo GK just wandering in and out of the warp killing any and every in his path. how come he doesnt get a niffty blood bath ward? i mean lets try to keep a theme at least..... just my 2 cents


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## Nicholas Hadrian

Let's dissect this one piece at a time.


RAM21201 said:


> well besides his hard on for the boys in blue


Won't disagree with you there, Ward sure does love him some Ultramarines.



RAM21201 said:


> and just writting fluff that makes Gato look like Abnett,


Speaking as someone whose chapter fluff has been touched in bad places by Casshern, there is no one who can make Goto look like Abnett.



RAM21201 said:


> besides all that ward earned my strong dislike with his super awesome khorne knights! k so C:GKs has the most pure and uncorruptable force in the galaxy (besides the custodes) freely practice in heresy pretty much. the only way to defeat a khorne greater demon is to slaughter all the uncorrupted sisters of battle and smear their holy and o so pure blood all over your armour so that you dont get corrupted? funny how never before in the history of the grey knights has one fallen to chaos. but theyll use the blood in the innocent juuuuust to make sure? WTF.


I will admit, I have not heard about this one before.



RAM21201 said:


> O and lets not forget the solo GK just wandering in and out of the warp killing any and every in his path. how come he doesnt get a niffty blood bath ward? i mean lets try to keep a theme at least..... just my 2 cents


Ward has never struck me as the most consistent of people either.


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