# The Missing Primarchs



## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

Ok, so, I know this has most likely been brought up a hundred or so times(I used search, but nothing I wanted popped up) I was curious, why are the two Primarchs missing? is it because they are genuinely gone? or did GW leave them like that to allow players to create their own Legions turned chapter(or legions if they went Chaos) so you wouldn't have to be another founded chapter from an existing Primarch? thanks.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

They were left blank as a DIY thing. GW never intends to do anything with them. Officially, they were lost in two separate tragedies that all are forbidden to speak of.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

Oh, ok, because I was in the middle of designing my own legion(well, Chapter, but I was going to let it have it's own Primarch) I was also stuck on names if anyone could help? it'd be appreciated.

I have from that Chapter name generator:

Imperial Templars
Iron Marauders

my color scheme is essentially Sable Swords, but knee pads are black, and the left shoulder emblem isn't there, I'm still thinking up an emblem, or looking for one.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lots of threads already about this subject. A lot of these threads have been talked about to death as many of them are 11 pages or so. Here are some of them. Just in case you don't get as many responses as you like.

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

The top three are the most discussed ones. You can find the rest on this page if your still interested. Note the top three are the three I have given you.

The Rest


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I'd personally stay away from makin them a first founding. For a start it means you would need to come up with a reason that they are deleted from imperial records and not present in any of the other background material. I'm not saying don't design your own chapter i'm just saying that you could quite easily make them from a later founding and it wouldn't make a lot of difference. There are no rules for fielding primarches on the battlefield anyway so it's not like being first founding would give you an advantage over say the Black templars or flesh tearers.

I've written background for 2 sm armies, one loyal one traitor and i've not had to resort to using these two spots to explain who they are. 

My point is, these missing legions are one of the first "mysteries" that players come across and has been thrown around so much that new players ( i'm not implying that you are new as i have no idea how long you've been at the hobby) almost always seize upon this premise. When i worked at an indie store i had 5 regulars which had home brew chapters. "Spartan warriors", "Steel hounds", "The Killers", "Night Legion" and "The Lion Haters". four of these armies claimed to be from the missing two legions and each had it's own ideas about a home made primarch. One claimed it's primarch was arnold schwarzanegger. 
My point is that the 40k universe is vast and Setting your homegorwn chapter in a later founding would tend to make mature players take the army background more seriously. 
If the "Steel Hounds" had been a third founding chapter that was created from the geneseed of the whitescars and hunted their opponenets on mechanised wolves instead o bikes i would have paid a lot more attention to their background then being told they were one of the missing legions (it was a long time ago and i can't remember which they claimed to be) and that their primarch was basically a giant robot who had been turned off when he crashed on the planet and thats why the emperor couldn't find him.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Well you know those who create their own Legions tend to write out the fact they are 'Lost' Legions. So it's not really a big thing.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Well you know those who create their own Legions tend to write out the fact they are 'Lost' Legions. So it's not really a big thing.




You're right but it's kinda self defeating. 
There is scare little information about these two legions and the reason that they draw people in is because people love a mystery and the idea that they can create a force that has as much history as the blood angels for example. To be fair there has been ten thousand years since the heresy which is more than enough time to create a lot of history for a chapter. The only real difference would be size and lets face it trying to collect even a chapter of marines is an insane prospect let alone worrying about a legion sized force. 

By ignoring the established fact that these legions are lost you are manipulating the fluff of the warhammer universe to fit your army rather then the other way around. By creating this change in what is established fact as far as 40k fluff goes you have placed yourself in a universe which doesn't really relate to the same one the rest of us are playing in. You may as well write a backstory where the emperor switched sides during the heresy and horus fought for the good of mankind, it would just about as much relevence to the mainstream game as introducing a lost legion. 

I'm not by any means trying to curtail creativity i have no issue fighting bizare lists with cool backgrounds and even custom units if it fits the character of the army better but i can't help but roll my eyes when i ask about an opponents army and am told that they are an unknown first founding chapter. It's cliche. 

One of my regular opponents is currenlty working on an army comprised entirely of yeti like aliens. he's using the imperial guard ogryn auxilia rules from apocalypse and is fielding them with a unit of handlers. There is nothing about yeti's in the fluff but it is a big universe with a lot of unknown lifeforms. There are only 2 lost legions and i've fought so many of them that it to me personally ceases to become unique and starts to border on the realms of easy storyline. 

That's just me personally, i'f you wanna create a first founding chapter then go right ahead, just don't take offense if players show less interest in your background as soon as you mention that they are first founding.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

GrimzagGorwazza has hit the nail squarely on the head, and far more eloquently than I could of.

Try and steer clear of 2nd, 13th (Dark), and 21st (Cursed) Foundings for your Chapter if you do decide against the Lost Legion cliche- there are 26 Foundings and a good half of all DIY Chapters seem to come from those 4 backgrounds, change it up a little.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

In regards to the search function, it isn`t as effective as we`d like sometimes. 

You`d do better to look at CotE`s FAQ thread. It`s stickied so it`s up top of the Fluff section. You`ll find most threads relevant there.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I'd personally stay away from makin them a first founding. For a start it means you would need to come up with a reason that they are deleted from imperial records and not present in any of the other background material. I'm not saying don't design your own chapter i'm just saying that you could quite easily make them from a later founding and it wouldn't make a lot of difference. There are no rules for fielding primarches on the battlefield anyway so it's not like being first founding would give you an advantage over say the Black templars or flesh tearers.
> 
> I've written background for 2 sm armies, one loyal one traitor and i've not had to resort to using these two spots to explain who they are.
> 
> ...



I've been in the hobby for about 8 years, and I've been playing Ultramarines since I got into it, I decided just a couple of days ago,to create everything for my Chapter, and I know, even if I did make my Chapter first founding, I couldn't use a Primarch, and I had to intention on coming up with a reason their found, because I realize many people have made their own Primarchs, I was going to add mine to the Great Crusade, and explain the battles, and such, but you know, like I said, I realize there are many custom chapters with custom Primarchs, I'm more of less, just including me and a friend in this here, I'm editing the Star Map for our homeworlds.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

GeneralSturnn said:


> I've been in the hobby for about 8 years, and I've been playing Ultramarines since I got into it, I decided just a couple of days ago,to create everything for my Chapter, and I know, even if I did make my Chapter first founding, I couldn't use a Primarch, and I had to intention on coming up with a reason their found, because I realize many people have made their own Primarchs, I was going to add mine to the Great Crusade, and explain the battles, and such, but you know, like I said, I realize there are many custom chapters with custom Primarchs, I'm more of less, just including me and a friend in this here, I'm editing the Star Map for our homeworlds.


If you're msinly doing it for you and your friend then go nuts. Heck what does it matter if you are rewriting the history for the universe if you are both happy with the alternate background.

Just remember that by setting your Legion during the great crusade you will be fighting almost exclusively xenos and splintered factions of humanity.
There are no chaos marines yet, the tyranids, tau and necrons have yet to be encountered. Also the doctrate of the marines will be different, the emperor is not seen as a god yet so the overzealous battlecrys will be non existent. 

The point i am trying to make is that just because you want to create a new chapter and you already have ultramarines there is no reason why you need to make your new chapter first founding. I'm not saying don't make your own chapter because quite frankly a lot of people love seeing models painted in a new and exciting way, especially if you are backing it up with fluff.

I'll admit to being slightly confused as to why you are creating a new legion instead of a new chapter. Especially if you are doing it without creating a new primarch. Appart from size all you end up with is chapter anyway. 

If you don't believe that a later founding chapter can be cool then i'd suggest you check out The Lightning hawks by LTP and The Bretheren of the Phoenix by Xenobiotic.
 Neither of these has been written in as a first founding Legion but have been inserted as later founding chapters and they still positively ooze character. 

All i'm trying to get across is that your fluff is really going to only effect the people you play with. If you are largely going to be playing with your friend and he's cool with it then go right ahead and write till your hearts content. All i'm saying is that you can't really expect people outside of that group to get excited about it because in the end you are playing with background that is contrary to that already written by GW. 

To take it out of context lets look at star wars. We now know that Princess Lhea (sp?) and Luke are Anakins kids. we know an aweful lot about what happened with them and how their lifes turned out. If somone turned up at a convention with stories about their long lost brother who was also a powerful jedi and was liberating other parts of the galaxy no one would take him seriously because there is no official source material to support it.

Back in the 40k universe the problems facing somone who wants to create a new first founding chapter and make them fit into the backgrounds are as follows.

1: Why were their imperial records deleted?
2: Why are they never mentioned in any of the background material anywhere? You would think that if they were an active force during the great crusade that the other legions would have remembered their existence. 
3: What are they doing now and how can they continue to function if their records are deleted?
4: Who was their primarch and what happened to him? Why is he not still around if he is dead? If he is alive how has he stayed in obscurity for ten thousand years?

Only once you've managed to deal with these problems and managed to do so in a reasonable manner will people be able to take your legion seriously and even then it will be with a pinch of salt. Creation of a later chapter immediately removes the problems of having to explain all this information because a lot of people recognise that the later chapters still have bucketloads of background reguardless of their later founding number. 

Famous later founding chapters that still have enough kick to drag people in:
Crimson Fists,
Flesh Tearers,
Black Templars,
The Legion of the Damned (Fire Hawks)
Red Scorpions
The Raptors

Just because it's later founding don't mean it's no good.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

I realize all of that, and I'm not really even trying to fit my Primarch in, so, essentiuallt, he was never deleted(in my part), if people tell me, their still missing, I know that, as, this is just an off story(by off, I mean, just happened between e and a friend), I know my one friend has friendly relations with Tau, and refuses to fight Chaos(though I told him:"Space Marines are FEARLESS, they fight every enemy of Mankind without mercy or regret, refusing to fight Chaos is proof of some sort of corruption, unless, well your chapter is VERY busy, but I doubt it will be" also, he said he'd never fight Tau, told him that if an Imperial worlds called for aid, or, worse comes to worse, a crusade is called against Tau expansion, you need to answer the call, I mean, my fluff may be a little bad, but he needs work on his chapter, don't he?

My friend is also creating his own Primarch.


Out of my own little world, well, I don't honestly know where their from, so, while it could be a missing Primarch, that's unlikely, I have alot of realizations about other people's customizations, and theirs would most likely make more sense then mine would, but either way, I have to intention on saying My Primarch was in any way "real"


I even had plans on crafting my own codex(though essentially is would be just a SM codex with minor changes, like a named Chaplain, a named Chapter Master, and one little thing about Marines) where, they can hold an Autocannon(as a Heavy Weapon, still limited to one per squad except with Devastators you know, I liked how Havocs could hold autocannon's but I'm not going Chaos for a simple unit.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

that's cool and all but i still don't see why they have to be first founding. Your only reasoning seems to be that your friend wants to be able to design a primarch and so therefore you need to have a first founding legion. 
There is nothing to stop you setting your game in current day and claiming that his legion got stuck in the warp and came out 10k years in the future. This would explain why he's been deleted from imperial records and you would still be able to write a background story that uses the universe that everyone else is fighting in.

The point i am trying to hammer across is that you don't need to be a first founding legion to have a distinct army and if your friend wants to use a primarch there is no reason that you should have to turn your army into a fluff breaker for them to do it. 

Like I stated before if you are happy with how your background will play out with your friend then go for it. There is nothing to stop you enjoying the game however you wish to. But it seems counter-productive to come online and ask people for information with regards to the fluff if you are then going to ignore the same background you are asking for information on. If you had intended to go against the background from the start then this thread should have been posted in the homegrown section rather then general fluff section.

PS: The autocannons from the imperial guard sentinel would be perfect for infantry usage as they have shortened barrels. You can buy them from bits and kits for a couple of quid. 
PPS: Fullstops are your friend.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

well, the home brewing of chapter yes, but general fluff was wondering what missing Primarchs were made for, when I make things, I'll most likely post them up in the homegrown section(same with my units I'm going to be doing, they'll go into home made rules) and the information I was wanting was:"Were they missing for a reason, or were they left like that to allow more customization?" which, was answered, by alot, like I said, outside of, my little stuff I'm making, We're both making Primarchs actually, originally he was a descendant from the Space Wolves(I think) then I told him I think they were made missing to allow customization, and he said:"HELL YEAH! I'M MAKING MY OWN PRIMARCH!" we more of less plan on having our Primarchs having formed a form of close friendship(like many others I think) didn't some Primarchs grow close whereas others kinda hated each other?


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

In which case yes they were origionally left blank to allow customisation but since then seem to have been actively avoided as if they never existed. 

You are correct that some primarches got along better than others. Lion El Johnson and Leman Russ hated each other whilst Ferrus Mannus and Fulgrim were firm friends before the Heresy. 

I'm always interested to hear what sorta background people are coming up with for their homegrowns. Have you already both got names for your Legions/Primarches?


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

He had Timber Wolves, and I had Iron Marauders(since Iron Crusaders was taken)

My Primarch, so far, has no name, I'm tackling this one step at a time, as to not get overwhelmed(I overwhelmed myself with my Orks at one point, I still have about 250 unpainted Orks out of 400) my steps I'm taking:

1: finish painting my existing Marines(not done)
2: make Legion/Chapter banner(done)
3: name Legion/Chapter(not done/done)
4: name Legion/Chapter Home world(not done)
5: name Primarch (not done)


I'm painting my Marines first.


I'm even editing this star map with additional worlds: http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html for now, I'm just adding Dawn of War worlds(Tartarus, Lorn V, etc...) I've taken a home in the Ultima Segmentum near the Centaurus Arm, he has yet to pick, I'm working on my Marines day and night.


While the map may be off, it's big, well, bigger then some of the galaxy maps I've seen.

I even have my own wiki(I like to have both official/fan made stuff) it's alot of work, but, I'm still working on it from time to time. http://lexmechanicus.wikia.com/wiki/Lex_Mechanicus


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Nice. Might be worth creating a project log to track this. That way you can get proper feedback and we can see them develope.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

When I finish all the other Steps I mentioned, I will begin writing on the Primarch, his home world, his legion, I'll begin writing backstory once I finish all the minor steps, I'm even creating a Fortress-Monastery.









Iron Marauders terminator









Banner









Tactical Marine


And also as I mentioned, I do not consider my writings on the Great Crusade to be anywhere near the real fluff, I realize none of what I would be writing about will be "real" as, well, the Primarch I'm creating is officially lost, and unless people are interested in hearing about my writings, I normally won't tell them, as it stand, on the official side, my Chapter is much like the Blood Ravens(not knowing their Primarch) I think anyway, I'm a Heavy Assault styled Chapter, We really dislike light vehicles believing them to be to weak to be driven by Space Marines(like Land Speeders) and we dislike Artillery(like Whirlwinds) viewing them as tools of cowards.

Also, another reason I asked; because it wouldn't make sense if we renamed an existing Primarch, as their already well established into the lore, makes more sense to take advantage of a lost Primarch instead of an existing one.


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## Sadinias Rahl (Feb 28, 2013)

*missing primarchs*

There are some in my circle of 40k gamers(myself included)who have speculated that Sigmar from Warhammer is actually one of the missing primarchs...in theory its pretty viable as whatever planet he was on could be locked in a warpstorm to deadly to navigate or the Emperor struck Sigmar from the list of primarchs AFTER finding him but finding he was already dead. Again It's a theory. I've actually been playing 40k for about 10 years or so and have been collaborating with several fellow gamers and friends on a portion of the Segmentum Obscurus. We have two separate sub sectors mapped out and drawn that details every portion of both sectors that we update periodically as we progress our own arcs in the 40k "universe". Trust me when I say getting that in depth takes a lot of effort and cooperation but it's very fulfilling and enjoyable when all said and done. I've also been working on a chapter of marines for every loyal primarch and have gone extremely in depth with each one of my chapters. My main focus is a chapter I call the Star Raptors and I mean the dinosaur. I've been working for the past 3 years on tweaking the different marine codex into a personal codex for this chapter. Think Salamanders riding Warhammer cold ones and stegadons. All in all its an incredible, yet entertaining pain in the ass but if you have the imagination and drive to do it...go for it. Basically what I'm saying is whatever ideas you may have GeneSturnn then I say run with them...it might be frustrating at times but it only makes the game more enjoyable in my opinion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Wow, bit of thread necromancy. On Sigmar though, GW have stated on more than one occasion that the Warhammer Fantasy universe and Warhammer 40k universe are completely separate. Even if they weren't, Sigmar didn't even begin to reach the level of a Primarch in terms of physiology or ability, though I will concede he had their charisma and ability to inspire. But still, even at his absolute best, he doesn't even come close to a Primarch.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Sigmar united a large portion of the human population of the "Old World", but not all of it. Virtually every primarch had it within his capability (if not the desire or will) to unite whole systems or sectors if he wished. 

I admit though Sigmar did pull a Primarch and just up and leave completely randomly and without good reason. Lol, maybe the Emperor came to him and said "Fuck this world. You going or staying?"


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