# =][= Rumours Roundup : Grey Knights - Released



## MadCowCrazy

News Section
05/04/2011
Grey Knights are out so I wish to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Next one will be up shortly so look forwards to what GW might bring us next, is it Necrons, Sisters or Tau? In that order?

10/03/2011
Here are two pictures from the GK codex of the Jokaero and Crowe.
Source



















Alessander brings us some interesting news.


> 3rd party Silver Compass Designs is coming out with a multiple sets of laser-engraved/cut tokens compatible for play with the new Grey Knights. Here's a preview of some of them:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> (click here for a bigger pic with detail).
> 
> SCD has a patent-pending process of laser-engraving a 3D image into the back of a plexiglass token, so you can easily color/paint the engravings yourself to match your army color scheme. The 1" wide tokens are supplied with the engravings unpainted. SCD should have the tokens available on their website later this month.


09/03/2011
Grey Knight pre-orders are up and can be found on GWs website
Grey Knight Codex : £17.50








Power Armoured Grey Knights : £20.50








Grey Knight Terminators / Paladins : £27.70








Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight : £33









08/03/2011
Been a while since I posted some news so it feels good to finally get some 
Was told the Black Boxes that are hitting GW stores this week should contain Codex, Plastic Terminators, Plastic PAGK (not sure about this one) and the Dread Knight.
The Grey Knight first wave should contain the following
Source


> The First wave has been confirmed!
> 
> Grey Knight Codex Softback – £17.50 RRP
> 
> Grey Knights Boxed 5 man Set -£20.50 RRp
> 
> Can be built as;
> 
> * A Grey Knight Squad
> * Interceptor Squad (Can teleport 30″ once per game)
> * Purgation Squad (Heavy Support can have psy-cannons, psilencer or incenerators. Have psyk-out grenades and can fire at targets the can not see due to Astral Aim.
> * Purifier Squad (Elite Squad with 2 attacks and the cleansing flame psychic attack)
> 
> The Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight – £33 RRP
> 
> Grey Knight Terminators / Paladins – £27.70
> 
> (Paladins are two wounded ws5 terminators with apothecaries)
> 
> Lord Kaldor Draigo – £13.80 RRP
> 
> (HQ choice that makes Paladins troops and grants D3 universal special rules)
> 
> Castellan Crowe – £10.25
> 
> (Makes Purifier Squads Troops)
> 
> Jokaero Weaponsmith – £7.70 RRP
> 
> An awesome space monkey!


19/01/2011
Here are some pictures of a built Stormraven, looks exactly like I was expecting it to do. I will be getting atleast 1.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/ancientgod/IMG_1295.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/ancientgod/IMG_1296.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/ancientgod/IMG_1297.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/ancientgod/IMG_1298.jpg

16/01/2011
Stormraven Sprue pics are out. As expected there are GK heraldry on it.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5456/img0177uza.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4081/img0174jia.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1469/img0170xpa.jpg
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5757/img0168eca.jpg

10/11/2010
It seems we will be seeing the Grey Knights this April. You can find this article on GWs website right now.
If you dont want to register this is pretty much what it says


Games Workshop said:


> This April Games Workshop releases Codex: Grey Knights, alongside a comprehensive range of fantastically detailed Citadel miniatures. Although details are being kept firmly under wraps for now, you can expect an exciting selection of plastic kits to enable you to build your own Grey Knights army.
> 
> Over the coming weeks we'll be releasing more details both here on the Games Workshop website and also in the pages of White Dwarf - to ensure you're the first to get the news, make sure you subscribe to the Games Workshop newsletter and keep an eye on the What's New Today blog.


11/11/2010
Some news at last, its been 3 months since the last news post and this time its something very juicy. The Stormraven model infact! Earlier today the following text and picture could be found on GW's website but it was quickly pulled down. Im putting this in the news section because since it was on GW's website I cant really call it a rumour.
Anyways here is what was on GWs website. Ive marked an interesting bit in red, so if we get Skaven 2nd wave in Jan does this mean BA 2nd wave in Feb? or will we get it in Jan as well simply because the Feb WD will be released late Jan? Only time will tell I suppose, if GK were released in Feb as well then I guess the Stormraven could be a huge seller for them as well.








Over the next few pages, we will be taking a look at how to paint the Blood Angels Stormraven Gunship, including how to weather the vehicle and paint the interior detail. A great addition and centrepiece model for any Blood Angels army, this will be an invaluable guide to help you get the most from this fantastic kit.

Death from Above
The Stormraven Gunship is an incredibly versatile craft, able to fulfill the roll of orbital dropship, armoured transport and strike aircraft in a way that few, or indeed any, ships could hope to match. The Stormraven ensures that the Blood Angels remain undisputed masters of the skies, as dominant in the air as their troops are on the ground. Smaller and nimbler than the more cumbersome Thunderhawk Gunships, the Stormraven's compact hull and vectored thrusters enable it to operate at maximum efficiency in all but the densest terrain. A Stormraven can often be seen hurtling straight into the heart of the enemy forces, unleashing its considerable arsenal in a terrifying display of firepower, before disgorging a squad, Dreadnought, or even both, into the thick of the fighting.

On the tabletop
With its potent firepower, speed and transport capacity, the uses of a Stormraven on the battlefield are myriad, but its role of choice is as an unparalleled assault vehicle. With a huge variety of weapon options, and no less than four tank-busting Bloodstrike Missiles, both enemy infantry and vehicles alike fear drawing the attention of its guns. A transport capacity of 12 combined with the ability to safely carry a Dreadnought to battle as well certainly proves the Stormraven to be a transport vehicle of the very finest quality. This unique combination of speed, firepower and transport capacity means that a Stormraven can support any tactical preference, so there is always a place for it in any Blood Angels army.

Nick: A Stormraven will be the focal point of your army, so it's well worth giving it a lot of attention when painting it. These techniques can effectively be applied to any other vehicles in your Blood Angels army too, so keep this in mind and you will have a great looking fleet of vehicles in no time. I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf; it's part of the 3rd Company, in keeping with the rest of the models. As a personal touch, I've weathered the model to appear heavily battle worn, but if you wish to keep your vehicle in pristine condition, skip page 6 and you'll have an immaculate vehicle, fresh as if at the beginning of a campaign.
Thanks to Tomalock for this juicy bit of information.

20/08/2010
Just noticed that Arco Flagellants 6 unit box has been removed from GWs webshop, have no idea when this happened but it seems they have been reduced to blisters as well.

12/08/2010
I will be going to Games Day UK this year. Im going to try and gather as much info Im able to about GK and SoB, Im sure the new DE models will be on display there as well so if possible I will be bringing you guys some pictures of them (if you are allowed to photograph).

07/06/2010
I just got an adoptable as well. Allot of people have joined the forum trying to give me rep, this does not work because you need a certain amount of posts before you can give rep. So I decided to get an adoptable. If you like this thread just click it. Its called Gluttony and can be found in my signature.
I just saw a post about Stormtroopers gone missing on GWs website. I checked it and they have indeed been removed from the Troops section in the Daemonhunter army section. Only a Sergeant with Plasma pistol remains but Im sure he will get removed soon as well. They can now be found in the IG Elite section, not sure if they have always been there though.
I also noticed they were not in the WH troop section, I cant remember if they used to be there. I know they are a troop choice for Inquisitorial WH armies but dont remember if they were in the troop section on gws webpage. If you know please send me a pm.

This got me wondering. If they were in the Troops section of the WH but are now removed could this point towards a combined codex? Basically a GK and SoB combined codex?
GK in themselves is a very small army with very few choices but Im sure they could expand upon that but this has got me thinking that maybe the SoB will be in it as well since they are also not a very large army. If you remove all the Inquisitorial and Ecclesiarchy models from the WH codex you get very few choices indeed.
Top this of with the guy who said he thinks the GK will be getting a walker similar to the matrix APU which happens to look allot like the Ecclesiarchys Penitent Engine. Are we looking at a combined codex or am I simply rambling?

Let me know what you guys think :crazy:

23/06/2010
The Witch Hunter codex and Daemonhunter codex are now available for download. Its the 3ed codicies with no updates as far as I can tell.
Daemonhunter Codex available here.
Witch Hunter Codex available here

13/06/2010
It seems some of the Sisters of Battle blisters and boxes have gone up in price, even though they were excluded from the price increase list.
Does this mean new models are further away from completion that first speculated? Dont know if GK have had a price increase yet though.


Azezel said:


> I have no idea what it means, but some Sisters of Battle models have had a price increase (which wasn't supposed to be the case according to the official list of prices hiked in the last... er, price hike).
> 
> The Three Sister Blister has gone from £9 to £10.50 and most Sisters superior have gone from £7 to £7.50.
> 
> The Exorcist has gone from £30 to £35 and heavy weapons have also gone up, but Special Weapons and the Immolator seem to have stayed the same price.


21/05/2010
I just called GW and this is true, the codicies will be available for download from the GW website.
I tried to milk for rumours but he couldnt tell me anything. I guess this is bad news as it might mean we wont see GK this year.
Oh yeah, I did ask him if this meant that the armies were being abandoned and he said and I quote "We as a model company will never abandon an army range"...Im looking at you Squats, Im looking at you...
callred just posted some interesting news on this site.
Source


callred said:


> appologies if re-post but seen new white dwarf today in local GW and in the news section it states that the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters codexs are going to be available in full in PDF format on the main GW site
> not new codex but the old ones - so does this mean august as release time seems unlikely?


Is this good or bad news for the Forces of the Inquisition?
I have not received my copy of WD yet so I dont know if this is true but it has been mentioned on other sites that this might happen.
So what does this mean exactly? Im not sure tbh, they have discontinued some of the box sets (seraphim5, battlesister10, repentia10 etc) but it has been believed that this is due to the creation of new plastic models. Will the PDF codicies be straight up copies of the books or will there be slight tweaks in it? Like the Allies rule being removed for instance?
If this is done in preparation for the release of the new GK/Inquisition codex I could understand them putting up the WH codex as PDF with some slight tweaks to the rules as mentioned above.
So why are they putting up both codicies on the website? Does it mean the codicies are far from being completed and they want people to have access to the rules at least?

17/03/2010
Wrote an "angry" email to GW about wanting my money back because WH and DH are being discontinued,
this of course was just a way to try and milk them for information and it worked 


Games Workshop said:


> Hi there
> 
> Daemonhunters and Witchhunters are not being discontinued. The codexes and a number of products have been removed from the range as we are looking to do a new Inquisitorial codex at some point in the near future.
> 
> I would recommend keeping an eye on the website and in White Dwarf for developments on this product.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers


25/02/2010
5 PAGK Troop box no longer avaible on the EU sites, still avaible on Canadian, US and Oz sites.
It seems PAGK Justicar and Psycannon blisters are 10% off in Australia, I cant however confirm this because when I try it actually adds 10% to the price.

Called GW today to ask about the PAGK box getting taken off the site, got to speak to a person Ive been in contact with quite a fiew times earlier.

Q. What is up with the PAGK getting taken off the site?
A. The current range of models is being discontinued atm.
Q. Discontinued? Does that mean they are abandoning the armies or that new codicies are on the way?
A. I highly doubt they would discontinue the range and to the other answer I really cant answer.
Q. Because you dont know or because youre not allowed to tell?
A. Because Im not allowed to tell 
Q. Why were there no missions for either SoB or GK in the missions book?
A. Corporate Answer : Because at the end of the day its an awsome addition to the tabletop game and you can use the SM ones and IG ones for them with inducted units.
Personal Answer : I dont know, maby it would give away too much of what might be comming 
Q. Do you think they are redoing the range?
A. They very well might be, if you look at the advances in plastics they have come a long way compared to what they used to be like. Take a look at the new Venerable dread for instance, its very much what a GK dred would look like and it wouldnt take much conversion work to turn one into a GK dred.
It has taken GW a very long time to redo the ranges but what they have come out with has been really good. Allot of people have been waiting for a remake of the GK for a very long time and GW might very well be redoing the ranges. If you just wait a bit longer Im sure you will really happy within the year or next.


13/02/2010
Wrote an email to GW about WH/DH, this is their response.



Games Workshop said:


> We have removed a number of the Sisters of Battle models as there will
> be a new Iquisitorial book coming out at some point in the future and we
> need make sure that we remove some items well in advance in order to
> satisfy our customers who won't want to buy existing models if new one's
> are then brought out.
> 
> I hope this helps.


01-02-2010
Start hearing rumours about a summer-autumn release for a new Sisters of Battle Codex

30-01-2010
5x Seraphim Squad : Gone from GW webshops except US, Canadian and Australian
10x Sister Repentia : Gone from GW webshops except US, Canadian and Australian
Called GW : Was told they are now discontinued and they wont be restocking them.
10x Sisters of Battle box is gone from Australian webshop.
DH and WH codexes are gone from USA, Canada and Australian webshop.
10x Sister of Battle box was gone from the US webshop but is now back and on sale.

08-01-2010
Deamon Hunter Codex : Gone from GW webshops except US, Canadian and Australian
Witch Hunter Codex : Gone from GW webshops except US, Canadian and Australian
10x Sisters of Battle box : Gone from GW webshops except US, Canadian and Australian


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## MadCowCrazy

*Rumours Section*

Rumours Section
Day/Month/Year
13/03/2011
Here is a compiled list of questions and things from the Grey Knight codex. Thanks to everyone who provided information, DakkaDakka, BOLS.

GK Compilation
HQ
Castellan Crowe
Is NOT an Independent Character

Elite
Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
No, but if you take an Assault Cannon and get psybolts it will have the exact same stats.

Do you need to field an Inquisitor to be able to field an Assassin? Can you field more than 1 Assassin?
No you do not need to field an Inquisitor and yes you can field more than 1 but just not of the same type.

Fast Attack
Is the Stormraven the only Fast Attack?
No, there are Interceptor squads.
Interceptors DO move as Jump Infantry

Wargear
Grenades
Psyk-out Grenades
Daemons and Psykers strike at I1

Rad Grenades
-1 Toughness, does affect victims instant death threshold

Blind Grenades
Defensive Grenades

Psychotroke Grenades
On the round that the model with the grenades assaults or is assaulted roll on some funky table:
1 - Nothing
2 - Enemies get only 1 Attack and are hit automatically.
3 - Re-roll misses in close combat.
4 - Enemy is at I1.
5 - Reduce Ld to 2.
6 - Each model in the unit makes an I test. If it fails, it attacks its own unit that round.

Ranged Weapons
Incinerator
Template, S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer
Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on 4+ unless it'd normally be better.

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

Needle pistol
S3 wounds on 2+, AP2

Hellrifle
36" s6 ap3 heavy 1 rending

Condemnor Boltgun
24" S5 Assault 1, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp (it's the stake crossbow thing)

Close Combat
All Nemesis Weapons have Daemonbane
Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.

Nemesis Force Sword
Force Weapon, +1 Inv in Close Combat

Nemesis Force Haldberd
+2Initiative, Force Weapon

Pair of Nemesis Falchions
+1 Attack, Force Weapon

Nemesis Warding Stave
2+ Invulnerable in Close Combat, Force Weapon

Nemesis Daemonhammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon

Scythian Venom Talon
+2 poison

Daemonblade
Roll 2x2d6 at the start of the game and you gain both those powers if you get the same result you may pick any other power.

2-3: +3 to S
4: +3 attacks
5: No Armour Saves
6: Each time you cause a unsaved wound you gain one for your wounds back this can not go over the starting wounds
7: wounds daemon on a 2+ and daemons must reroll pass inv saves
8: Gains Furious Charge and Rage
9: Gains Feel no Pain and Eternal Warrior
10: Poison attacks 2+
11-12 Mastery level + 1 and the sword is now a Force Weapon 

Null Rod
Power weapon that causes Instant Death to Psykers

Ammunition
Psybolt Ammunition
+1S to Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, Autocannons
Psyflame Ammunition
+1S to Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and Flamestorm Cannons

Other
Brotherhood banner
All models in the unit gain +1 attack and count as passing their leadership test automaticaly to activate their nemesis force weapons. (this still counts towards your psycic power though, for instance if you use hammerhand you cant use force weapon)

Orbital Strike Relay
Can fire an orbital bombardment with one of the following profiles:
S6 AP4 Heavy 3 Large Blast Ordnance
S10 AP1 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Entire template counts as the center hole.
S6 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Causes immediate Perils of the Warp on psykers hit.

Empyrean Brain Mines
Chose one enemy in base contact, that model must pass an Initiative test. If failed they can not attack that assault phase.

Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.

Psyocculum
Wearer and Unit gains Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker or squad with psyker

Ulumeatni Plasma Syphonplasma
Models firing plasma weapons (plasma pistols, guns and cannons) within 12" use bs1

Vehicle Weapons
Ranged
Heavy Incinerator
S6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Flamer*
*Fires like a Hellhound: up to 12 inches away.

Gatling Psilencer
Gattling Psilencer - Range 24" S5 AP- Heavy 12 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be better

Heavy Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Rending

Psi-Strike Missiles
S4 AP5, Blast, Causes Perils of the Warp on any Psyker touched by template

Close Combat
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon, strike at Initiative order

Nemesis Greatsword
Reroll 1 miss, wound and armour pen

Nemesis Doomfist
DCCW, Force Weapon

Vehicle Upgrades
Reinforced Aegis Armour
-4Ld for the purpose of enemy Psykic tests 12" around the dreadnought

Warp Stabilisation Field
Allows the Librarian to Summon the vehicle, counts as moving flat out

Truesilver armour
S6 hit on Daemons or psykers for each hit they make on the vehicle

Psykic Powers
Librarian
Most have a 6" range
Smite
Same as in C:SM

Quicksilver
Unit strikes at I10

The Shrouding
Unit gains Stealth

Sanctuary
Units trying to assault treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous

Warp Rift
Template, Assault 1, take Initiative test, failed take a wound with no save. Vehicles take 1penetrating hit.

Might of Titan
+1S and +1D6 for vehicle pen

The Summoning
Same as C:SM

Vortex of Doom
12" S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Blast

Grey Knights
Hammerhand
+1S in CC, applied before other modifiers so powerfists would be S10

Heroic Sacrifice
When killed make 1 CC attack, if it hits target is also removed from play.

Psychic Communion
+1 or -1 ti reserve rolls

Astral Aim
Can shoot units not in Line of Sight but they get 4+ cover save

Cleansing Flame
Enemy units locked in same combat takes a wound on 4+ with armour saves allowed

Holocaust
12" S5 AP-, Assault 1, Large Blast

Warp Quake
Deep Strike wargear that reduce scatter dont work within 12", if enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" they get Deep Strike mishap

Vehicles
Fortitude
Negates Shaken and Stunned results

17/02/2011
Some more rumours from Blood of Kittens
Source


Blood of Kittens said:


> * Nemesis Ward Staff can be only bought for one Grey Knight per squad. So that means only one will be able to take one of those mean wounds.
> * Unlike reported before by me and others GKT do not get Storms Shields (with very few exceptions). That means you are stuck with sucky +5 invul saves on termies. What you do get instead is all nemesis force weapons grant a +1 to all invul saves in assault. That means +4 saves in close combat.
> * A full man unit of Paladins average around 600-800 for 10 of them. So don’t expect to spam many of them.
> * Add to that the Paladin Captain that makes them troops is the most expensive model in the codex over the cost of a Land Raider.
> * Sadly the Dread Knight MC thingy cannot be put in a Stormraven.
> * The worst change that I hinted at back when I first reported the rumors last year. The whole Teleporting Grey Knight once per game thing is for the Grey Knight squads in the Fast Attack slot. That means those guys and the Stormraven are your only FA choices in the entire codex. Normal GKs will not be able to teleport in the game.


16/02/2011
Here is a rumoured statline for the Nemesis Dread Knight, together with other info posted elsewhere we should now have a pretty complete look at it, still no idea what the weapon stats are though.
Source


> It's a Monstrous Creature with lots of wounds, high strength, high toughness and a 2+ save as well as a 4+ invulnerable save.
> 
> You can clearly see 3 weapon options:
> 
> Heavy Psycannon: Str 7 AP 4 36" Heavy 6?, Rending
> Heavy Incinerator: Str 6 AP 4 Template, Rending, Fires Like Inferno Cannon
> Nemesis Force Weapon: ?
> 
> Nemesis Dreadknight: 130 Points
> WS 5 BS 4 S 7 T 7 W 4 I 4 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 2+/4++
> 
> Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
> Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points (Unit can move as though they have a jump pack. Once per game, the unit may move 30", but may not assault afterwards.)
> Special Rules: Monstrous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1 (an use 1 psychic power per turn for each level)
> Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand (+1 strength in Close Combat), Holocaust (S5 AP - Large Blast 12")
> From what has been posted elsewhere when judging the pictures these weapons have popped up:
> Heavy Incinerators : 30pt
> Gatling Psilencer
> Heavy Psycannon : 40pt
> Nemesis Daemon hammer
> Nemesis greatsword
> Personal Teleporter : 75pt
> 
> If anyone knows the stats and points costs of the missing ones please let me know, also anyone know what a Psilencer is? Something that makes psykers unable to cast spells? or wound them more easily?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rumours Section 2
Day/Month/Year
13/02/2011
More rumours abound 


> I. True Grit is NOT a rule. HOWEVER, if I remember, the armoury entry for GK armour and Stormbolters said that Stormbolters work as pistols for the purpose of calculating an extra CC attack. I'll check when I get a look at the wargear section again.
> 
> II. Daemonhosts:
> -Stats: 3 3 4 4 1 3 1 8 -
> -Fearsome Claws and Runic Chains (CC weapons)
> -Warp Shield : 5+ Invul Save
> -Daemonic Power: Roll a d6 on the start of each of YOUR turns, all Daemonhosts in your unit gain one of the following until your next turn unless otherwise stated:
> -1: Re-Knit Host Form - Feel No Pain
> -2 Warp Grasp: No Armour saves against Daemonhost's CC attacks
> -3 Daemonic Speed: Fleet & I10
> -4 Warp Strength: Strength 6
> -5 Energy Torrent: Shooting attack: 24" S4 AP3 Assault 1, Blast
> -6 Unholy Gaze: Shooting Attack: 24" S8 AP- Assault 1
> 
> III. Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo (You will address him as such or no questions answered for you! tongue.gif)
> -He's your GK Mephiston
> -He has a Storm Shield and Storm Bolter, yes. And lots of other things.
> Quote:
> I. Grand Master Mordrak
> -6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
> -He has the usual GM equipment plus a MC Daemonhammer (The bigger, nastier version)
> -Usual GM rules
> -First to the Fray: If he deploys via Deepstrike, he and his unit arrive first turn and does not scatter
> -Ghostly Bodyguard: These be Ghost Knights. They count as Terminators (Regular, not Paladin) but have Stealth, one unit only. Mordrak acts as an upgrade character for them until such point as they are all dead. If Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, at the end of the phase roll a d3. If the result is equal to or greater than his remaining wounds a Ghost Knight appears. You place it in coherent with him and it counts as part of his unit. Default wargear, no upgrades. Placed in B2B contact with the enemy unit Modrak is fighting or within 1" of him otherwise. If you don't have a GK on hand, or there's no room, they don't materialize. It's possible to materialize mid assault apparently, and if the GK does, he can make an attack if the wound was caused by an attack of I5 or higher. If not, he just appears. If Mordrak dies, the Ghost Knights go bye bye.
> 
> ^ Long rule isn't it? And I left out all the fluff.
> 
> -Ghost Knights ARE 32 points per. And they can be upgraded.
> 
> -Did you mean Purgation or Purifier Squads Hero? Purgation = Artillery GKs, Purifiers = Vet GKs
> 
> -GKSS costs 100 points base, 20 points per GK, and comes with a Justicar.
> 
> 
> NEXT!
> 
> Edit: Warp Stabilization Field negates Perils on Vehicles I believe. Like I said, when I get a look on the Wargear section i'll let you all know. Have Faith in your Commissar eh?
> Quote:
> I. As far as I know, Nemesis Weapons ARE power weapons. Make of that what you will.
> II. Psycannons are what you said, I believe, but I think its H3, not H4.
> III. Marmande.. Lots of Questions.
> -Thawn has a Halberd
> -Purifiers are WS 4. The only difference between them and GKSS is that they have The Cleansing Flame, +1A, +1Ld and can take free Incinerators and Psilencers (Though GKSS can take Psilencers for free too) Oh and they get Halberds at +2 points instead of +5
> -Purgation Squads are BS 4.
> -Deathcult Assassins are WS5 I6 and are 15 points.
> -Covered the Libby's stats already
> -Inquisitors have LOTS of varied options, too many to list but i'll list some notables (THIS IS NOT ALL OF THEM, so don't get all worried if I don't mention a Nemesis weapon or such)
> I. Malleus: Combi-Weapons, Hellrifles, Daemonblade, Artificer Armour, Termi Armour, Psyker upgrade
> II. Hereticus: Combi-Weapons, Inferno Pistol, Condemner Bolt Gun, Null Rod, Arty Armour, Psyocculum, Psyker upgrade
> III. Xenos: Combi-Weapons, Needle Pistol, Scythian Venom Talon, Ulumeathl Plasma Syphon, Rad & Psychostroke Nades, Psyker Upgrade, Arty Armour
> 
> -Coteaz is S4. Master Crafted Daemonhammer, and various special rules
> -Crusaders do not have Power Armour. WS4 I3
> -Eversor does not blow up anymore.
> -Brotherhood Banner - Not sure as of now, i'll check
> One other user asked:
> Quote:
> Yes, Purifiers.
> 
> Here's a rundown of points I have collected so far (all from Rumors of course).
> Confirmation on these will be awesome:
> 
> - 175 for GM, 150 for BC, 150 for Librarian Lv.2/200 for Lv.3, 100 for Champion
> - 100 for 5x GKSS w/ Justicar, 20ppm for each one additional, 20pts for Psycannon and 10 for each Incinerator for every 5 guys in the squad.
> - 100 for 5x Purgation Squad w/ Justicar that comes with Incinerators
> - 275 for Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo, 200 for Mardock, Stern's cost??, 200 for Castallen.
> - Paladins are 55pts starting base, Terminators are 40pts base.
> Where Ciaphar answered:
> Quote:
> IV. Your points on the HQs are correct, Hero
> -Swap the Psycannon and Incinerator costs on the GKSS though your right on that otherwise
> -Purgation Squads: Yessir. Though technically they come armed as GKSS squads, but can take Incinerators for free.
> -275 for the Supreme Grand Master, 200, for Mordrak, 200 for Stern, & 150 for Castellan Crowe
> -Yes for Paladins. Also, the Apothecary is a 75 point UPGRADE, meaning you have to buy the Paladin THEN upgrade him
> -Purifiers are 120 points base, 24 per new model.
> Quote:
> -Yes, Terminators get access to all of that (incinerators and psycannons)
> -Yes, Dreadknights are the only ones with teleporters outside of GKSS
> -Techmarines, no other powers, but he does get some other fancy stuff: Conversion Beamer, Servo Skulls, Nemesis Weapons, Orbital Strike Relay, Psybolt ammo, fancy nades and more
> -Brotherhood of Psykers: A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. They count as a single psyker and follow all the normal rules as such with the following clarifications:
> I. GK unit uses the leadership of the Justicar or Knight of Flame if he is alive, otherwise, uses the unit's LD. They may never use the LD of an Independent character for Psychic Tests
> II. If the GK suffers a Perils of the Warp or any other attack that specifically targets psykers, it's resolved against the Justicar or Knight of Flame. If he's not alive, a random non-character model in the unit.
> -That's all Mystics do i'm afraid. Though you don't scatter when you go within 6" of them
> Quote:
> -Grand Master Mordrak's Fluff:
> I. Only survivor of the Fortress world of Mortain after a Red Corsairs attack
> II. Was traumatized and saw "visions" of his dead brothers
> III. Under attack at Ralindri, he was left crippled and alone after a teleporter malfunction. Daemons attack "Chilling wall of Silvered Steel" appears around him and proceeds to beat Daemon face. He survives
> IV. On the Bloodplains of Bellos III he saw the apparitions and discovered them to be his dead brothers from Mortain. They urge him to hunt down various Daemonic incursions
> V. He feels the only way to free them is to kill Huron Blackheart who's apparently got a fleet and force to rival the Traitor Legions
> VI. Mordrak's new mission is to shove his foot up Huron's arse.
> Someone asked
> Quote:
> Wait, so Psyannons are only 10 pts on GKSS and Incinerators are 20? Did I misread that? If that's the case then the free Incinerators on the Purgation squads would result in free Psycannons.
> Great info on everything else.
> 
> Questions:
> I would assume all Terminators/Paladins/GKSS and Purifier squads follow the same weapon layout. This meaning: For every 5 models, take a special weapon such as Incinerator and Psycannon.
> This would also mean that Paladins have access to 2 Warding Staves if you take a full unit of 10.
> 
> As for unit limits, I'm assuming 5-10 for GKSS and Purifier squads, 5-10 for Purgation squads, 1-10 for Paladins, 5-10 for Terminators. Confirm?
> Quote:
> Take it with a grain of salt man, you don't have to believe me. Hell, I don't expect you too. I'm just trying to be as helpful as I can. I take everything with a grain of salt and i've seen the thing. No harm in doing that, I recommend it for any rumors you encounter, be they mine or someone else's.
> 
> -Yes Hero, Psycannons are 10 and Incinerators are 20. You still have to pay for the Psycannons on Purgation Squads though.
> -Same Weapon layout yes. But Nemesis Weapons work different. They're not every 5 models, for them it's ANY model.
> -Yes you are correct for the unit limits.
> Quote:
> The Knight of Flame is the Purifier Justicar, yes. Purgation Squads don't get a cool leader name, i'm afraid.
> 
> -Angelust - I covered all of that already, i'm not sure if there's a round up for what i've said so far somewhere or anything. No harm in asking though, so don't let anyone brow beat ya.
> 
> -GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh.
> -They seem to be the Guardians of a boatload of hidden Chaos stuff within Segmentum Solar and the Sol System. It almost seems like the Emperor is one of those guys you see on American Pickers but for Chaos junk, and he keeps it all on his front lawn. Poor Grey Knights have to keep it all locked up.
> 
> EDIT: Purgation Squads are +10 for Psilencers, +20 for Psycannons
> -Paladins and Terminators are every 5 for the Incinerator, Psycannon, and Psilencer
> -Warding Staves count as NEMESIS weapons and thus follow the "ANY model" heading.
> -Daemonbane is some sorta super anti-Chaos upgrade. I want to say it lets you re-roll to hit and wound against daemons but let me check before you all run off screaming into the night.
> Quote:
> Malleus inquisitors can take psycannons
> Quote:
> -Mordrak and Draigo do have The Grand Strategy
> -Psycannons and Incinerators do not ignore Invuls as far as I know. Psybolt ammo seems to, though.
> -No vehicles/walkers have access to Psycannons, Incinerators, and their ilk, outside of the Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature anyways.
> -Dreadknight Options: (135 pt Base)
> -Heavy Psycannon - 40
> -Gatling Psilencer - 35
> -Heavy Incinerator - 30
> -Nemesis Daemonhammer - 10
> -Nemesis Greatsword - 25
> -Personal Teleporter - 75
> -Also, Dreadknight Armour: 2+/4++
> -Dreads(115 pts)/Ven Dreads (175 pts): Weapons are the same as they've ever been for a Space Marine Dreadnought. Fancy GK vehicle upgrades including Psybolt and Psyflame ammo.
> 
> Now even a Commissar must slumber. Think upon what I have told you, my brothers, and come with new questions. Oh and by the way Lord Karamazov I Got A Fancy High Chair is in, in case you were wondering.
> 
> QUOTE (Commissar Ciaphas Cain @ Feb 13 2011, 11:48 AM) *
> -No vehicles/walkers have access to Psycannons, Incinerators, and their ilk, outside of the Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature anyways.
> 
> I. Yes, the Weaponsmiths are the Jokaero. Keep in mind they're in the Inquisitor's Warband and nowhere in their entry does it mention that they work with the Grey Knights themselves. I think it's a nod at the Ordo Xenos inclusion. You should hear their rules though, hoo boy!
> 
> II. I've seen some none blurred pictures, yeah. Some of that new artwork is impressive! And the Dreadknight box art is sweeeeet. You guys will really like it, it's the most bad ass Exo-Suit this side of Terra.
> 
> III. I'll get back to you guys on the Wargear stuff the next time I take a look. Orbital Strike Relay calls down a single Orbital Bombardment, I believe.
> 
> IV. Sadly, yes, the GM, BC, and Libby come with a 5++ Invul as is Terminator Standard. They can take Warding Staves though. The GM and BC have Psychic Communion and Hammerhands, and no, they can't customize their powers.
> 
> V. They come with Nemesis Force Swords as standard. If you want the Halberd and so on, you's got to pay up!
> 
> VI. Also, the Brotherhood Champion is an HQ too that no one seems to care about. Poor guys. I still love you and Castellan Crowe too!
> 
> VII. The Turbo-Penetrator acts exactly how it sounds like with Sniper. Scary, innit?
> 
> VIII. Warding Staves are a generic 2++ as far as I know. And no, outside of the Crusader type Henchman, there be no Storm Shields. Guess they wanted to leave that to the regular SMs.
> 
> IX. I'm actually kind of confused what the purpose of a Brother Captain is to be honest. He's only 25 points cheaper than the Grand Master and he doesn't even have the awesomeness that's The Grand Strategy that the GMs have.
> 
> X. Purifier Squads, I know no one asked, but they're so boss. My standard troop type thanks to His Awesomeness Castellan Crowe.
> 
> XI. Costs: GM = 175. BC = 150. Libby = 150. Brotherhood Champ = 100 (For Arty Armour and weapons of awesome!)
> 
> XI. FLUFF QUESTIONS HOOOOO!
> -Paladin Terminators are basically super elite badasses. When a GK thinks he can be a bad ass, he embarks on an eight step quest to become a Paladin, involving spending a day and night in some super evil cavern in Mount Anarch, go test his will against some super evil book, kill a Herald of each of the four Chaos Gods, kick the ass of one of the 666 super daemons and more. Then he goes and joins the Paladins in the Hall of Champions and bodyguards the Grandmasters and Apothecaries.
> -GKs are organized into various Brotherhoods, each with a BC and his bodyguard called the Brotherhood Champion. I can't be sure until I get another look at it, but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.
> -It seems to be a mix of pick and called. The GKs can go drop the hammer wherever they think they need to, but if the Inquisition calls, they've gotta go be Bros and back em up.
> -Jokaeros and Daemonhosts work with INQUISITORS not necessarily the GKs. I guess if they have to work with them they view it as a necessary evil?
> 
> XII. And yes, the Cullexus lost the aura and the ability.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Also, as scary as Paladins are, they do cost an arm and a leg. And a kidney. Basically you become Iron-Hand Straken if you want an army of them.
> 
> Castellan Garran Crowe
> -Head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order
> -Wielder of The Blade of Antwyr, a super daemon sword that not only attracts heretics and daemons like flies, but tries to corrupt and possess the wielder, thus it was entrusted to the Purifiers to keep safe. Crowe is the only one with the fortitude to keep it under control.
> -Stats: 8 4 4 4 2 6 * 10 2+
> -150 pts
> -The reason for the * on his A slot is because he has the same "The Perfect Warrior" ability that Brotherhood Champs have
> -Artificer Armour; Frak, Krak, and Psyk-Out Nades, Storm Bolter; Iron Halo
> -The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase
> -Master Swordsman: His CC attacks are Rending and Rend on a 4+
> -All the rules a regular Broterhood Champ has
> -Purifiers are TROOPS with Castellan Crowe
> 
> Purifiers are awesome because for +4 points over a PAGK they gain an extra attack and LD point. And access to The Cleansing Flame psychic power. Oh and Incinerators are free for them.
> 
> The Grand Strategy is the ability of the Grand Master to give one of four special rules to D3 units (Infantry, Jump Infantry, MCs, or Walkers, NOT Inquis. Warbands, ICs, or Modrak's Ghost Knights). The rules are:
> -Hammer of Righteousness: Nominated unit re-rolls to wound rolls of 1 for the duration of the game
> -Shield of Blades: Target unit gets Counter Attack
> -Spear of Light: Target unit gets Scouts
> -Unyielding Anvil: Target unit gains Scoring
> 
> Brother-Captain Stern
> -Stern is NOT a Mephiston like beast. The idea makes me chuckle. He is good though.
> -Standard Brother Captain Statline & Equipment
> -Strands of Fate: Stern can reroll one to hit, to wound, or saving throw die PER PHASE. However, for every one you chose to roll, your enemy can reroll one of his own later in the game.
> -Zone of Banishment: Psychic Power used in the assault phase in place of his CC attacks. ALL models within 6" (Friendly and enemy, and himself!) must take a Strength test. Those that fail are dragged into the Warp AKA removed from play. Daemons must reroll successful saves.
> 
> 
> 
> ALSO! I IS IDIOT. BROTHER CAPTAINS, GRAND MASTERS, AND BROTHERHOOD CHAMPIONS HAVE IRON HALOS. THAT IS ALL. 4++ INVUL.


12/02/2011
More and more rumours each day now, it seems we are entering that sweet spot just before a new codex release when people are slowly starting to share what they know. At the end of this month or start of the next we should have hearing from the first people with the actual codex in hand.
Until there here is a little bit of info from Bolter and Chainsword



> Nemesis Weapons, as far as I know are Force Weapons. HOWEVER, because of how Brotherhood of Psykers works (A unit casts a psychic power as a singular entity) I believe this means that only one weapon can become a Force Weapon per turn (If you so choose to use it over Hammerhands), and the rest are power weapons. Still, nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> -Nemesis Halberd: +1 Initiative
> -Nemesis Daemonhammer: +1 Strength
> -Nemesis Falchions: Force Lightning Claws
> -Nemesis Warding Stave: Power weapon that conveys a 2++ Invulnerable save. (I know. Madness.) They\'re 25-20 points per depending on the squad.
> -Daemonhammer - This entry confuses me. There\'s both a Nemesis Daemonhammer and a regular Daemonhammer, but as far as I know, this one is a Thunderhammer with Daemonbane.
> 
> Psyk-Out grenades reduce morale of the unit they attack, I believe, but that one is the one i\'m the most unsure on.





> Commissar Ciaphas Cain at B&C ended up answering a whole bunch of my questions, clearing up a lot of little details that were vague.
> 
> 
> Commissar Ciaphas Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> -Dreadknight comes with (And this is how you know Ward did it) two Nemesis Doomfists as default.
> 
> -Grey Knight Strike Squad Options:
> -For every five:
> -Psilencer (Free!)
> -Psycannon
> -Incinerator
> 
> -All the Nemesis weapons (Any model!)
> -Various point costs
> 
> -Psybolt Ammo
> -Personal Teleporters
> -Justicar can MC any of his weapons
> 
> -Henchmen, upon further examination don't take up a FoC slot but you MUST have an Inquisitor to get a Warband (One warband for each Inquisitor you have). And there's no limitations, so yes you might see Daemonhost, an Arco, and a Mystic in one group.
> 
> -Assassins DO take up an Elite slot.
> 
> -Librarian can take all of the powers and can be upgraded to Mastery Level 3 allowing him to cast 3 per turn. Also, he comes default in Terminator Armour. AND can take all of the various Nemesis weapons.
> 
> -Thawn, no, but he is Mastery Level 2. Not sure why, as Hammerhands is the only power outside of I Shall Not Yield that he has.
> 
> Also, before I list this, if I'm over the line at all, PLEASE tell me so I can remove what's necessary not to get my butt kicked.
> 
> -Valeria has a LOOOOOT of equipment. Here it is:
> -She's an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> -Also, Stubborn
> -Stats: 4 4 3 3 3 4 3(5) 10 3+
> -Power Armour; Frag, Krak, & Psyk-Out Nades; Laspistol
> -*Graviton Pistol*: Range: 12" Strength: 10 AP: 1 Type: Pistol, One Shot
> -Jacked it from an Alien Weaponsmith in the Ultima Segmentum apparently.
> -*Runes of Destiny*: ALL (Armour or invul) Successful saves against her shooting or CC attacks must be rerolled.
> -Eldar Runes she's taken over her career, but she ain't got no wraithbone batteries to make em work at full power
> -*Dagger of Midnight*: Grants +2A (Included in profile) that MUST be rolled with different colored dice (Or separate I suppose) because if she rolls doubles with them, the attacks hit her instead.
> -Stole this from an Eldar Pirate's corpse. Apparently the dagger is "controlled by a rebellious and bloodthirsty intelligence". Please perform an "Oogedy boogedy boo" after reading that.
> -*Hyperstone Maz*e: Can be used once per game in lieu of her CC attacks. Must be directed towards a character or MC in B2B contact. Target must roll a d6 and roll equal to or below their remaining wounds or be "trapped in the maze forever" AKA removed from play.
> -Multi-faceted emerald that leads to a spooky sub-dimension, apparently
> -*Forceshield*: 4+ Invul save
> -Hand-mounted forcefield thingy.
> 
> Also, randomly enough, they can take Ordo Xenos inquisitors. Weird.
> 
> -And yes, VenDreads are the only ones with Reinforced Aegis
> 
> 
> Edit: Justicars are in. True Grit is out as far as RULE goes, but I think Stormbolters count as pistols for them anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Commissar Ciaphas Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vindicare Info:
> 
> -Move Through Cover, Fleet, Infiltrate, Fearless, Uncanny Reflexes (4+ Invul)
> -Deadshot: In Soviet Russia, Vindicare shoots you. Kidding, the Vindicare's player picks who he hits, not the opposing player.
> -Blind Grenades
> -Exitus Pistol: 12" S: X AP:1 Pistol, Sniper
> -Exitus Rifle: 36" S:X AP: 1 Sniper, Heavy 1
> -Rounds: Must Declare which round before rolling to hit
> -Hellfire: 2+ to wound
> -Shieldbreaker: Takes no damage, but PERMANENTLY removes Invul saves granted by items or wargeat
> -Turbo-Penetrator: Inflicts 2 wounds on any non-vehicle model wounded. Has penetration of 4D6 against vehicles!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Commissar Ciaphas Cain' said:
> 
> 
> 
> I Shall Not Yield! only works on Thawn, sorry.
> 
> As for the other assassins:
> 
> Eversor:
> -Neuro Gauntlet: Counts as Lightning Claw
> -Frenzon: Gain d6 attacks on the turn they charge instead of 1
> -Meltabombs
> -Furious Charge
> -Executioner Pistol: 12" S4 AP2 Pistol, Poisoned (2+)
> 
> Cadillus:
> -C'Tan Phase Blade: Power Weapon. Instant Death against unsaved wounds regardless of Toughness
> -Neural Shredder: Template S8 AP 1 Pistol Hits are resolved against Leadership not Toughness. Can't hurt vehicles.
> -Polymorphine: When the assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. Chosen unit immediately takes D6 S4 AP 2 hits. Then the assassin is placed anywhere within 3" using Deepstrike rules but does not scatter.
> -Hit and Run & Stealth
> 
> Cullexus:
> -Psyk-Out Nades, Psyocculum (<- Not actually sure what that does)
> -Animus Speculum: 12" S5 AP1 Assault 2. For every psyker within 12" of the assassin, add 2+ to the Speculum's assault value
> -Etherium: Any unit wishing to shoot or use a psychic power on the Cullexus must pass an LD test on 3d6 (Vehicles count as LD10). If the test is failed they can't target the assassin but can target others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Commissar Ciaphas said:
> 
> 
> 
> -Jaon on Dakka Dakka: Assassins can be taken in any of the 3 elite slots, but each is UNIQUE thus only one per TYPE of assassin.
> 
> Grandmaster: 6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+
> 
> Brother Captain is the same minus a BS point.
> 
> Libbies, see GM stat line -1 WS -2 BS -1W -1I -1A
> 
> What, no one cares about the Brotherhood Champion? For shame!
> 
> BC and GM can take Psycannon, Incinerator, Psilencer, Servo Skulls (Up to 3), Blind Grenades, meltabombs, digi weapons, psybolt ammo, empyraen brain mines, psychostroke or rad grenades, and an Orbital Strike Relay. Oh and MC weapons. And all three are alll in Termi armour.
> 
> EDIT: Fluff questions! You're my hero. I'll answer the Dreadknight one for Brevity's sake, I'll answer the others later, if you guys come up with a list.
> 
> No one knows where they come from, be it Xenos or Dark Age of Technology stuff. The GKs basically refuse to say and tell everyone to F off who asks where they came from. They're basically used as Jes said on Warseer, to go toe to toe with big nasties like Daemon Princes and such. And apparently this thing is super hard to master so that's why we don't see more.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

11/02/2011
Blood of Kittens has come out with a rumour today, who the fabled writer of codex Grey Knight is.


TastyTaste from Blood of Kittens said:


> Yeah I know it has been hinted elsewhere, but just want to throw a confirmation to what many of you already know.
> 
> As always just give credit where credit comes. Magic Marker and have fun!
> Matt Ward


We have the worlds first pictures of the new Grey Knights as well as the much talked about Dreadknight, all thank's to our local gamer girl Katie Drake.
Give her some rep for these awesome pics, a little blurry but they are good enough to give a general impression imo.


> Okay everybody, sorry for the rather significant delay. Won't go into details as I'm sure nobody cares anyway.
> 
> Now before anyone bitches about quality, realize that these photos were taken by a webcam... of images on an iPad or something. So yes, they're blurry. Yes, they're the only ones available so deal with it.
> 
> 
> *[IMAGES REMOVED AT GAMES WORKSHOP REQUEST]*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope everyone enjoys.
> 
> Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves.


09/02/2011
More rumours abound today, some compiled by BOLS and some from the podcast The Overlords featuring our very own Dagmire, enjoy.








Source
The Overlords podcast, Episode 34 has the GK rumours
They mention:
Inquisitorial Henchmen consists of
Arco-Flagellant
Banisher
Crusader
Daemonhost
Death Cult Assassin
Inquisitorial Servitor
Jokaero Weaponsmith
Mystic
Psyker
Warrior Acolyte
Squats (most likely a joke)

It seems the Warrior Acolytes can be customized with allot of different gear, everything from bolters, lasguns (hot-shot perhaps?) to plasma weapons and the like.

Source


BigRed at Bell of Lost Souls said:


> Unit Breakdown
> Special Characters:
> Lord "Draigo" LR cost.
> Grand Master "Mordrack" Storm Raven Cost
> Brother Captain Stern
> Castellan Crowe
> 
> Inquisitor Corteaz
> Inquisitor Karamazov
> Inquisitor Valeria
> 
> HQ
> Grand Master
> Brother Captain
> Brotherhood Champion
> Librarian
> Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
> Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
> Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> 
> Elites
> Techmarine
> Purifier Squad
> Venerable Dreadnought
> Paladin Squad
> Callidus
> Eversor
> Vindicare
> Culexus
> Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
> 
> Troops
> Grey Knight Terminator Squad
> Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
> Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
> 
> Transports
> Rhino
> Razorback
> Chimera
> 
> Fast
> StormRaven
> 
> Heavy Support
> Purgation Squad
> Dreadnought
> Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
> Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)
> 
> Unit Notes
> Grand Master Rumors
> Pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
> Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
> Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
> Makes them have counter attack USR.
> Makes them Scout
> All these units are affected by the one choice.
> 
> No Drop Pods
> But GK strike squads are supposed to be able to take personal teleporters. This makes them jump infantry. And once per game it is rumored to allow them to make a 30" move, just move... not a on table deep strike. they Can shoot when they do this, but not charge.
> 
> Paladins: 2 wounded terminators (they can have an apothecary in the squad)
> 
> Purifiers: Grey Knights that have a lot of anti horde options, they are the ones with the power that will do a wound on every engaged enemy model in cc on 4+.
> 
> Terminators equipped with frag and krak grenades.
> 
> Psychic Powers
> Hammer Hand: +1 strength in Close Combat
> Warp Quake: Any deepstriking unit that lands within 12" suffers automatic mishap.
> Holocaust: S5 AP - Large Blast 12"
> Quicksilver: Unit becomes Initiative 10
> Warp-Rift: Template that auto removes models from play
> The Summoning: A single friendly unit that is anywhere on the table is placed within 6" of the librarian and counts as deepstriking.
> Smite: As C:SM
> Might of Titan: Beginning of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand.
> The Shrouding: Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" gain stealth (minimum 5+ cover in the open).
> Mind Blades: Start of any assault phase. One enemy unit within 6" loses 1 toughness for the rest of the assault phase.
> Vortex of Doom: As C:SM
> Sanctury: Enemy assault phase. Enemy units wishing to assault any Grey Knight within 12" of librarian must make a difficult AND dangerous terrain test.
> Psychic Communion (Grandmaster and Captain only): Take a psychic test. If passed, you may modify any reserve rolls by + or -1.
> Heroic Sacrafice (Champion only): During any assault phase and when the "chaplain" dies. If the psychic test is passed, make one attack against any one model that is in base to base with the champion. If the attack hits, the model is removed as a casualty with no saves. If it misses, there is no effect.
> Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Start of any assault phase. All enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck with saving throws allowed. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
> Astral Aim (Purgation Squad only): Shooting Phase. Unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range and regardless of line of sight. Target automatically gets a 4+ cover save that cannot be modified.
> Reconstruction (techmarines only): Beginning of techmarine's movement. Re-roll any repair roll.
> Fortitude (Vehicle only): At the start of Grey Knight player's turn, removes any shaken or stunned results.
> Zone of Banishment(Captain Stern only): During Stern's assault phase. All models (friend and foe, but NOT stern) within 6" make a strength test or are removed from play. Demons must re-roll successful tests.


08/02/2011
More rumours from our very own Dagmire


Dagmire said:


> Librarian psychic powers
> Smite
> Quicksilver
> Warp Rift
> Might of titan
> The Shrouding
> Mind blades
> Vortex of doom
> Sanctuary
> The Summoning
> 
> Karmazov
> Has master crafted MM an MC Powersword. Frag/krack/psyk-out and Rad nades + orbital strike relay
> 
> 4 4 5 5 4 4 3 10 2+
> 
> Dread Reputation: units within 12' re-roll moral and pinning tests
> By any means necessary: you can choose to play the blast over a friendly model. If you do so the shot does not scatter
> 
> Jokaero Weaponsmith
> 4 3 2 3 1 3 * 8 -
> War gear: Digital wpn
> Defence orb: 5++
> 
> Jokaero ingienuityigi wpns can fire as either LC, MM or HF. all models in the unit must fire the same (think chaos oblits)
> 
> If a unit contains 1 or more then you roll on chart and can get teh following
> 
> wpn max range increased by 12'
> +1 to armour
> all shots are rending
> 5++ to all in unit
> 
> Assassins are fleet now
> 
> Grand Master Mordrack
> 200 points
> 6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
> this is the guy that comes with ghosts as his body guard.
> Deep stikes like drop pods do, first turn landings ect
> and give teh D3 dice rolls to improve units





Marshal Augustine said:


> Brotherhood Champion:
> 74441*10 2+
> Infantry, Character
> Artificer, Frag, Krack, Iron Halo, storm bolter
> Anointed Blade: Nemesis Force Sword, re roll failed wounds.
> 
> Titans Herald: AKA Litanies of Hate.
> 
> * The perfect Warrior (instead of an attack value, makes special cc attack ability):
> Sword Storm: Makes one A on each model in B2B.
> Blade Shield: Does not attack, but re roll failed saves.
> Rapier Strike: Makes D3 Attacks (+1 if charged) at I10 but must be against an IC or MC.
> 
> Powers:
> HammerHand
> Heroic Sacrifice
> 
> 
> 100pts Base
> Upgrades:
> Digital Weapons 5pts
> Empyriean Mines 10pts
> Psybolt ammo 5pts
> 
> Regarding Dagmires post about Grand Master Mordrack
> him and his squad will DS with NO scatter.
> Stats are accurate.
> 
> Stealth for the Ghost Knights. (one wounded terminators)
> 
> Roll D3 for each unsaved wound he suffers. If = or greater than his remaining wounds, another knight shows up and joins the unit.
> 32pts per ghost minimum of 1 and max 10
> 
> Can have Nemesis Force Halberds for free, or nemesis deamon hammers for free.
> Falchions for +5 per model.
> Nemesis Warding Stave.
> Psybolt ammo
> Any model may make any weapon Master Crafted at +10.
> Brotherhood banner +25.
> 
> Castellan Crowe makes purifier squads troops.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rumours Section 3
Day/Month/Year
08/02/2011
Seems the rumour mill has really started pouring out stuff 


> Warrior acolyte:
> 
> replace laspistol and chainsword with one of...
> bolt gun
> storm bolter
> hot shot lasgun
> combi weapon
> power sword/or plasma pistol
> storm shield
> power fist
> 
> Any can have....
> carapace
> power armor
> meltabombs


07/02/2011
It's rumour time!


Marshal Augustine said:


> Ok where to start?
> 
> I have not heard or seen anything relating to weapons/wargear yet. So no dice on that one.
> 
> The assassins have one singular "fluff" entry, that states their generic rules... 6+ FNP, Dodge Save etc... and then one page with the rules for each one (i think) stating wargear and rules. I do not believe they take up a slot.
> 
> Inquisitors are about the cost of a current GK.
> 
> Nemesis force weapons ( I have no idea)... units are armed with nemesis swords. And units can upgrade any models to have force halberds at xpoints. the Halberd I believe adds 1 Initiative.
> 
> No libby dread. But all GK vehicles are phykers... their go to power is to "cure" shaken or stunned at the start of a GK turn.
> 
> Dreadknight:
> t7 w4 2+sv/ 4+inv with lots of weapon upgrades including the heavy psycannon and super incinerator.
> Dreadknight cost of vendetta:
> MC, Dreadknight armour as armour (deepstrike 2+sv/4++) So im assuming he is a buffed up terminator Mephyston style. Can be given a personal teleporter (making him jump infantry and move up to 30" once per game for about the cost of a Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoon)..
> S7 WS 5
> Quote:
> 3A and 2 CC.
> 
> No restrictions of that nature when it comes to the henchmen.
> 
> The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
> ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
> Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
> Crusader- PW, SShield
> Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
> DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
> Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
> WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
> 1- no effect
> 2- +12" to the range of all guns
> 3- armoursaves improved by one
> 4- all shooting weapons are rending.
> 5- all models gain 5+ invul
> 6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
> Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
> Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
> WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt.
> 
> The inquisitors are one statline. The different options are just wargear and upgrades that fit their role.
> 
> No wargear rules.
> 
> Special rules
> 
> ATSKNF
> Combat Squads
> Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test) Units within 12" of a GK dreadnought targetted by powers psyker is at -4 "reinforced aegis"
> 
> Gk
> 44441418 3+ at 1/5 of 100pts each.
> Termies
> 44441429 terminator armour. 200pts for 5...
> Paladins are Ws5
> No shrouding. As far as I know... but now GK's can have rhinos and razorbacks.
> No stormtroopers as far as I know.
> Well for the base cost of 100pts you get 4 GK and a justicar. 2A and Ld9.
> Basic Power is Hammerhand (+1 str in cc)
> Also have warp quake. Any deepstriking unit that ends up within 12" of any GK strike unit will mishap. Also makes enemy teleport homers and beacons stop working.
> Paladins 55pts
> apoth + 75. min squad size of 1.
> GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.
> IMO a 20pts space marine with a storm bolter (and whatever the force weapon is) is aweseome! and a lot cheaper than they used to be...
> Perils of the Warp : The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.
> 1. Any army-wide GK special rules?
> 2. What's the stat-line of an inquisitor?
> 3. How is the anti-tank looking in this codex?
> 1- ATSKNF
> - Combat Squads
> - The Aegis
> - Psyker Pilots
> - Brotherhood of psykers
> - Psyker Mastery Levels
> - Preferred Enemy Deamons
> 2. 443334310 4+ Stubborn, IC. (25pts)
> 3. So far i don't know... other than the inquisitorial henchmen mobs, and the dreadnoughts/landraiders/stormravens. Squad based AT seems limited.
> 
> Yes, paladins are indeed 2 wounded terminator armour greyknights. With allocation (thanks to wargear) they will be a tough unit... and for +15 points over a regular terminator! yes please... and the grand master can make them scoring oh yes!.
> No gizmos to re roll saves... although there are these "brotherhood banners" for units.. so who knows maybe a re roll all ones a la spacewolf?
> Paladin Options:
> Force Halberds
> Nemesis Deamon Hammers
> Pair of Nemesis Falcions
> Nemesis Warding Stave
> Psycannon
> Incinerators
> Psylencers
> Apothecary
> Banner of Brotherhood
> Entire unit can have psybolt ammunition
> Any model can make any weapon Master Crafted at +5 pts per weapon.
> 
> Ok time for more:
> GK psypowers:
> Smite- See C:SM
> 
> Quicksilver- Begining of own movement. Unit within 6" gains I 10 till end of turn.
> 
> Warp-Rift- Flamer Template JOTWW
> 
> Might of Titan- Beggining of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand (yes, that means that S6 2D6 armour pen GK's is a go!..)
> 
> The Shrouding- Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" benefit from stealth. And have 6+ cover even if in the open (so 5+ in the open and 3+ in most other cases)
> 
> Mind Blades- Start of any assault phase. Pick enemy unit within 6", they loose 1 toughness for the remainder of the assault.
> 
> Vortex of Doom- see C:SM
> 
> Sanctuary- Any enemy assault phase. Enemy units assaulting any GK unit within 12" of the librarian treat all terrain (including open ground) and difficult and dangerous terrain.
> 
> The Summoning- Librarian movement. Pick a friendly non vehicle unit. Place them within 6" of the librarian using the DS rules.
> 
> oh wait, more you say!:
> 
> Librarian (mastery level 2) 150pts Can upgrade to level 3 for +50: each level is number of powers you can use per turn.
> Each purchased power is +5 pts, but he comes with hammerhand for free.
> 
> GK Grand Master Powers (level1)
> Hammerhand
> Psychic communion - take test, if successfull GK player can modify reserve rolls by +1 or -1 and you can choose to modify after each roll.
> 
> Brother Captain (level 1)
> Same
> 
> Brotherhood Champion (level 1)
> Hammerhand
> Heroic Sacrifice- during either players assault phase, when the "chaplain" is taken off as a casualty. Is passed, make one attack against any one model that he was in B2B with. If the attack hits, the model is also removed as a casualty with no saves... if the attack misses then no effect. Remember he is WS 7...
> 
> Terminators-
> Hammerhand
> 
> Strike Squads-
> Hammerhand
> Warp Quake- Start of GK movement phase, lasts till GK start of next movement. All enemy teleport homers stop working, any enemy unit that deep strikes within 12" of the strike squad will suffer a mishap.
> 
> Purgation Squads-
> HH
> Astral Aim- Shooting Phase, unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range regardless of LOS. Target automatically gains 4+ cover that can't be modified.
> 
> Paladins:
> HH
> Holocaust- 12" Str5 Ap- Large Blast
> 
> Purifier Squad:
> HH
> Cleansing Flame- Start of the assault in any player turn. All enemy -models- that are a part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
> 
> Techmarine (mastery 1)
> HH
> Reconstruction- Start of TM movement, may re roll any repair roll.
> 
> Rhino-Razorback/
> Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
> 
> Dreadknight-
> HH
> Holocaust
> 
> Dreadnoughts-
> Fortitude (see rhino)
> 
> Land Raiders-
> Fortitude (ibid)
> 
> Storm Raven same...
> 
> Brother Captain Stern Level 2:
> HH
> Communion
> Zone of Banishment: During his assault phase. All models friend and foe, within D6" (not stern), must take a strength test or be dragged into the warp... deamons re roll successful tests. These casualties do not count towards combat.
> 
> Castellan Crowe Level 1:
> HH
> Heroic Sacrifice
> Cleansing Flame
> 
> Inquisitors are not psykers.
> 
> Inquisitor Corteaz (100pts) Mastery 2:
> HH
> Sanctuary
> Mind Blades
> 
> There, thats all I have.
> 
> What happens when a vehicle gets peril? : glancing hit.
> As far as I know no bonuses. But there might be some crazy wargear... then again I dont have any info on the gear.
> No storm shields that I know of.
> 
> Holocaust. And hammerhand (holocaust is s5 large blast at 12" weapon).
> 
> also, almost entire army has preferred enemy "deamons"
> 
> Storm Raven is 5pts more than BA counterpart. But has psy power that allows it to ignore shaken and stunned.
> 
> also a lot of units can be upgraded with psybolt ammunition. Whatever that is... 20pts for the entire unit of GK's
> 
> Purgation Squads are HS... their special psypower is being able to shoot at units out of LOS.
> 
> And they have a lot of guns.
> 
> The terminator upgrade character special rule "i shall not yield" basically a 4+ WWB for the character.
> 
> purgation... same as before... 4 weapons, 20pt psycannon, free incinerators, and psilencers (whatever those are)
> Cost of GK unit as they are GK's, just with weapons.
> 
> The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.
> 
> callidus- 145
> eversor- 130
> culexus-135
> vindicare- 145
> 
> Genral GK rules:
> 1- ATSKNF
> - Combat Squads
> - The Aegis
> - Psyker Pilots
> - Brotherhood of psykers
> - Psyker Mastery Levels
> - Preferred Enemy Deamons
> 
> Draigo is a GK Grandmaster and is very nasty. (Eternal, t5, 5 attacks, psyker mastery 2, strength 10 sword vs daemons/psykers
> Psychic power?
> 
> -Squad granted initiative 10
> -Jaws like power which removes models from play without any save. template vs line, but no MC modifier for initiative
> -selected (friendly?) unit is grabbed and brought near libby with deep strike rules
> -Power which makes units within certain range take difficult/dangerous terrain test.





Dagmire said:


> 3 named inquisitors Valeria,coteaz and karamazov. Coteaz is a daemon hunter inq, kara is the witch hunter and val is the xenos inq. They are armed acordingly.
> Deamon hosts are in as henchmen as are death cult assassins and psykers.
> An inquisitor (not sure if its named or not) takes 3-12 henchmen
> 
> 8 8 4 4 2 7 4 10 4+ Assassin stat line.
> 
> 1 fast attack option. the storm raven. cost 205 points ???? not sure why.
> 
> Only 2 troop choices and they are not IST
> 
> Lord Kaldor Draigo 275 points
> 7 6 5 5 4 5 4 10 2+
> Lord of titan: Pladin squads are troops
> armed with the titan sword and SS as well as SB
> Frag, krak and psyk-out nades
> 3 psykic powers, Hamerhand, psyckic comunion and sactified flame
> 
> Was it mentioned that GK have PE against Deamons??
> 
> Storm raven has shadow skies: same and the blood angles one but squads with personal homes dont scatter
> 
> Dred info:
> 115 points
> comes with MM and nemisis doomfist+ SB
> smk launchers
> 
> psychic pilot
> the aegis
> reinforced aegis
> PE- daeoms
> 
> Psy power: fortitude (belive it ignors shaken and stunned)
> 
> replace MM for twin linked, HF,HB,AC or plasma cannon/assult cannon or TL LC
> replace Doomfist with: TL AC or ML
> 
> Extras:
> serch light
> psybolt ammo
> psyflame ammo
> warp stablisation field
> true silver armour
> extra armour
> 
> No true grit, they have:
> and they shall know no fear
> brotherhood of psykers
> the aegis
> PE-daeoms
> combat squad
> deepstrike
> 
> power armour
> nemisis force sword
> SB
> frag/krak,psyc-out nades
> 
> 
> psy powers:
> hammer hand (+1 s)
> warp quake
> 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ normal guys sgt has plus 1 attack and LD
> add upto 5 more guys for 20 points per model


06/02/2011
A nice little rumour has popped up, it seems interesting to say the least


Marshal Augustine said:


> Grand Master rumoured to pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
> Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
> Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
> Makes them have counter attack USR.
> Makes them Scout
> All these units are affected by the one choice.
> 
> Terminators equipped with frag and krack grenades.


A supposed army list has been posted, it seem we are finally getting some rumours more regularly. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a more in depth newsletter from GW in a week or two.


Marshal Augustine said:


> Special Characters:
> Lord "Draigo" LR cost.
> Grand Master "Mordrack" Storm Raven Cost
> Brother Captain Stern
> Castellan Crowe
> 
> HQ/
> Grand Master
> Brother Captain
> Brotherhood Champion
> Librarian
> Inquisitor Corteaz
> Inquisitor Karamazov
> Inquisitor Valeria
> Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
> Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
> Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> 
> Elites/
> Techmarine
> Purifier Squad
> Venerable Dreadnought
> Paladin Squad
> Callidus
> Eversor
> Vindicare
> Culexus
> Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
> 
> Troops/
> Grey Knight Terminator Squad
> Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
> Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
> 
> Transports:
> Rhino
> Razorback
> Chimera
> 
> Fast/
> StormRaven
> 
> Heavy Support/
> Purgation Squad
> Dreadnought
> Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
> Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)


04/02/2011
Some information has been posted about the Sisters of Battle audio drama and the book scheduled for September


James Swallow said:


> So we were in the recording studio yesterday ((January 28th - Azezel)) putting together our first ever all-girl Warhammer 40,000 audio drama - Red & Black, featuring the Sisters of Battle - and it was a pretty good day. Although I think I may have broken the voices of our actresses with all the shouting and snarling...
> 
> This audio story features the talent of the brilliant Beth Chalmers (previously heard in Black Library's Throne of Lies and Aenarion audios), who brought the character of Sister Miriya from my novel Faith & Fire to life. Joining Beth was the equally excellent Lisa Bowerman, better known as the titular heroine of the Bernice Summerfield audio series from Big Finish Productions. Lisa swapped acting and directing duties with the venerable Toby Longworth this time around.
> 
> Red & Black will be out later in the year; it's a prequel to Faith & Fire (which will also get a reprint soon) and be followed by the next adventure of the Sisters, Hammer & Anvil.


28/01/2011
Finally some new rumours, again from Blood of Kittens. I was hoping for some more rumours but I guess it's better than nothing.
This does look allot like a new version of Sanctuary to me, there is no way the old one would remain (Daemons can't come within 3" of caster) so something like this would make allot of sense.
More rumours should start popping up soon as we near release. We should at least get the first pictures in February.


Blood of Kittens said:


> "The Grey Knights are getting a new unit or they are getting an upgrade that causes an automatic hit to any enemy model in base-to-base with them. This hit wounds on a 4+ regardless of enemies toughness with normal saves allowed and occurs before ALL attacks (think old mandiblasters), but still adds to combat resolution at the end of combat.


17/01/2011
Fritz has posted a youtube video about the GKs, 2 new and rather interesting things in it. Callidus C-Tan blade reduced to a lousy power weapon and Grey Knight Obliterators as a Heavy Support Choice.




12/01/2011
Stickmonkey has posted 7 points of interest, pretty much what has been said before.


Stickmonkey said:


> 1. Expect a new codex which expands the fluff greatly.
> 2. Expect plastic Terminator GKs, in scale and compatiable with current plastic Teminators
> 3. Expect plastic power armor sized GKs, whether this armor is actually aegis, annointer, artificer, etc is a mute point, they will be in scale and compatible with all other standard sized marines
> 4. Expect new sculpts of existing metal character minis
> 5. Expect a few "new" plastic kits and metal blisters (for the specific rumored kits see the numerous other threads, I'm not going to reveal anything specific here)
> 6. This will be a wave release, not all of the units of the codex will be represented by models in the release or current ranges
> 7. IMHO, the models are some of the best sculpts I've ever seen out of GW.


07/01/2011
Some more rumours from Blood of Kittens, it's good to read Penitent Engines are no longer in the codex as they are Ecclesiarchy units, wonder if Arco-Flagellants will still be in it though?
Source


Blood of Kittens said:


> As BoLS and Blood of Kittens reported before about the MC GK has taken the slot away from what was originally given to Penitent Engines. The MC will be an Elite slot that is already becoming quite crowded with units. GK will be the Special Characters codex look for over 10 new special characters to play with at least 1/4 being inquisitorial in nature.
> 
> Assume any special powers (not USRs) are psychic powers instead. As an example, if you have Land Raider and it is immune to something it will be a psychic power (not wargear) same goes for Special Character powers. The ability to raise AV is almost certainly out of the codex or at the very least regulated to transports only. The Stormraven is currently still the only Fast Attack unit in the codex. The ability for GKs to teleport once per game is for basic GKs only not for terminators. Don’t believe any stats for the incinerator it is the one major piece of wargear that is still being debated. The special character that makes terminators cheaper can only make one squad cheaper think Tau honor guard.


06/01/2011
Some new Sisters of Battle rumours from Stickmonkey, sounds awesome but also a very long way off 


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.
> 
> EDITED:
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> So to clarify a few bits.
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> Cheers.


29/12/2010
Some new stuff from BOLS


> Grenades - ALL Grey Knights (even the Termys) are said to have frag & krag, as well as the return of some old chestnuts from the days of yore such as blind and psych-out options ~no idea on what those would do.
> 
> Eversor Assassin - This guy is said to get +d6 attacks on the charge, and comes equipped with 2+ poison equipment. ~YIKES, I hope he still blows up when he dies.
> 
> GK Librarians - Here is where it gets good. We've heard that a wider array of Librarian Ranks are available, some allowing over 2 powers per turn to be used ~Eat your heart out Eldrad! Some of the reported powers included crazy stuff like:
> -the lowering of a target unit's toughness! ~Think of what that means for the T:3 races!
> -a "Stealth Kustom Force Field" that hands out the USR to all nearby friendlies.
> -an "Inverse Gate" to yank a friendly unit from wherever, to right near the libby.



26/12/2010
Some rumours from our local member Katie Drake 


Katie Drake said:


> I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex, so that means the book (Codex: Grey Knights) should be out soon.
> 
> I was allowed to ask three questions about the Codex.
> 
> Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?
> A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.
> Q2: What are the possible Troops choices in the Codex?
> A: Power Armored Grey Knights and the aforementioned Terminators.
> I didn't get the impression that there was any FoC switchery available which would be strange but not impossible.
> Q3: How does the Stormraven differ from the one in Codex: Blood Angels?
> A: It's a Fast Attack choice, has a different weapon upgrade and the pilots are psykers (which I took to mean that the Stormraven could either cast or benefit from psychic powers).
> 
> A lot of this is just confirmation of what we've already heard, but hopefully it's still useful. I haven't read this thread to make sure that all of this hasn't been repeated, so feel free to delete if it's just mindless repetition.


20/12/2010
Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas (if you celebrate that). Insanity Claus is here for the Christmas update. Sorry I have not updated in a while, been busy with Cataclysm though Im getting kinda bored with it already.
Anyways it's rumours time, there has been allot going on these past few days and I also found this awesome picture of the last faction in DoW 2 Retribution when I was looking at my wishlist on steam.
I wish you all a great holiday with lots of 40k related stuff, I will most likely have to wait until next year before my orders arrive but I'm in no rush since I have boxes upon boxes with unopened stuff in the dark corners of my cell...

First off the picture I found on Steam, most of us discussing it has come to the conclusion that it is a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor which could mean we will be seeing the Sisters of Battle in Retribution. I would personally love to see them but as nothing is confirmed yet we could as well see Inquisitorial Guard or a servitor freak army. You can check out the discussion here.









A Black Library book is scheduled for release around September next year, it's called Hammer and Anvil and will feature the Sisters of Battle trying to retake Sanctuary 101 where the Imperium of Man first encountered the Necrons. I have said it before and will say it again, if we see a Necron codex during the summer it would make perfect sense to see a Sisters of Battle codex in September to tie in with the books release and it would also make perfect sense if they made a starter set featuring the Sisters of Battle vs Necrons.
With the book they would have the perfect back story for the set, call it The Purging of Sanctuary 101 or something like that. It would be a perfect opportunity to get people hooked on 2 newly updated armies that aren't as popular as others. If this turns out to be true I will buy at least 5 sets.
Here is the cover picture for the book Hammer and Anvil









Some Vindicare rumours from BOLS.
Exitus weapons are said to be AP:1
Both a rifle (sniper) and pistol come as standard equipment
Weapon ranges are said to be unchanged
Unlimited special Exitus ammo types are now available: ~Apparently the Imperium sends Vindicares into the field with ammo clips now!
-Hellfire (wounds on a 2+)
-Turbo Penetrator (doubles wounds, 4d6 penetration)
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)



> "The GK codex has been finalized and is currently at the printers.
> 
> There is a unit in the codex called a "Dreadknight" which is basically a psychically-infused super-terminator that counts as a monstrous creature. It looks sort of like a penitent engine but better. It has a Dreadnought CCW, lots of wounds and 2+ save.
> 
> The codex looks like it's pretty sick and will be on par with the Space Wolves for overall power. Terminators can be made troops by a special character. GKs lose fearless and gain ATSKNF. Power Armor Grey Knights get squad-based psychic powers, including a power that is like Hammerhands. There is also a squad-based psychic power that increase the strength of their storm bolters to 5.
> 
> Terminators have 2 wounds and come with a 4+ invulnerable save."
> ~We hear those 2-wound termys are a seperate unit from the standard 1-wound ones.


stinger989 started off slowly but has been releasing Grey Knight rumours left and right these past 2 weeks, he/she/it claims to have access to the play test version.
Some of this stuff seems really outlandish but if true it could really shake up a thing or two.





stinger989 said:


> The dreadnoughts that you are refering to are called drednights kinda like a pentenant engine but with a grey knight in it instead and its a MC not armored. little more cost then a dreadnought but have some nasty upgrades. cant really say much more then that. There is no armor increase power either so no armor shenanegans.....





stinger989 said:


> Lungboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that anyone claiming GK get Penitent Engines but with GK "drivers" have no idea what Penitent Engines actually are, and how utterly implausible such a suggestion is.
> 
> 
> 
> Well im only saying that they are similay model wise. nothing to do with the rules or the fluff.
> as for a release the launch is going to be April 2nd
Click to expand...




stinger989 said:


> They will not get bogged down and there is two versions of the dredknight as i have read the first option will run ya 130pts with a gatling psycannon (heavy 12), and a heavy incinerator gun (fires like a hellhound) and its armed with two dred cca. the second is a dred same as above but also armed with a jump jet which will run 205pts and can move 12" then once per game it can boost to move 30" but may not assault afterwards.
> 
> as reguarding the rumors with upping the armor value that is not going to happen although there is a power that allows the vehicle to negate crew stunned and crew shaken.





stinger989 said:


> henchman squad is maxed out at 12





stinger989 said:


> yep cortez can make henchmen troops, so you can get stormtroopers but they are now bs3 and not nearly as good. crusaders with a marine cost and coming with a pw and ss is much more attractive.
> the other real winner for henchmen are the humans that come with bolters for 5pts or storm bolters for 7pts at bs 3
> other troops are the palidan termies with 2 wounds and a 5++ and can get fnp with the apothicary
> pergitor squads with all the extra special weapons can become troops too.
> 
> vindicar assassin is 0-3 and have the special rounds that are quite nasty
> 4d6+rend vs. armor
> wound on a 2+
> take inv save away for the rest of the game
> loses his night fight rule but still has stealth.
> 
> psy cannons are str 7 with rending
> drednight with gattiling psy cannon is only str 5 but 12 shots.





stinger989 said:


> the palidan termies do not have EW.
> havent read into the special chars much yet as i havent had time. but ill have a chance after x-mas.
> some weapons that are new for the gk
> sword that grants +2 str
> halbriad that grants +2 int
> one more but don't remember.
> playtesting the gk the army with full squads of crusader humans and assassins in a crusader will wipe most things in one assault phase, which i can see lots of people taking. I can also see lots of people running the bolter/SB spam since they are dirt cheep.
> the basic grey knights top out at 20 pts little more for the justicar.





stinger989 said:


> there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
> gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.
> stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.
> the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.
> normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex.
> cortez-the inquisitor if my memory serves me right has a power that makes all henchmen units get a power that makes all deamons re-roll inv saves if within 6" of the unit so deamons are gonna have a very tough time vs gk





stinger989 said:


> well the vindicar did go to bs 8 so there is gonna be little missing there
> next time i get a look i can get some more info on the henchmen
> reguarding the upgraded weapons in the codex, not sure on what type they are just know that one upps the str and one upps the int.
> i know there are assassins, crusaders, stormtroopers and past that i wasent able to read, next time though.





stinger989 said:


> basic grey knights have force weapons and can be modeled how you want but are only str 4 now.
> ill try and get a couple pics of the drednight if possible but wont be tell after x-mas tell i get a chance to read through the codex again.
> after that ill try and elaborate more.
> and as always take what i say as you want im only trying to spread some knowledge as it comes to me.


This is it for now, take with the usual unhealthy dose of salt. April 2nd does seem plausible for GKs though, guess we will find out at the end of the year or early next year in a GW newsletter


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rumours Section 4
Day/Month/Year
03/12/2010
Ahhh, friday atlast. Im hoping for a GW newsletter today revealing what's to come in March but I'm not holding my breath for it.
Blood of Kittens promised an "uber" rumour today and that rumour is now out. It is indeed pretty juicy I must say, though I wonder what the points cost will be for these guys.
Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…
He said terminators were similar in points cost to Vanilla terms, so around 45pt, but 45pt for 2wound, FNP and Eternal Warrior? Ouch, those are some movie marines right there. Juice them up with SS for some real nasties and each one of them carrying Force Weapons and possibly Rending Storm Bolters? That's some nasty shit right there!

01/12/2010
Blood of Kittens has posted some GK rumours, most of it old stuff but tons of new stuff as well. Some of it however seems EXTREMELY unplausible, especially point 2. Penitent Engines, Arco Flagellants and Priests, these are Ecclesiarchy units, they are not related to the GKs in any way. There has been a rumour that the codex will feature all the ordos and I've read about Inquisitors having Arco Flagellants in their retinues but Penitent Engines I can find no plausible reason for being in the codex.
More rumours are to come from BoK so stay tuned, if the rest is anything like the first batch we have some shocking stuff to be revealed to us later today.
Source
Here is some clarification of the big rumors that have been floated around the Internet concerning the GK codex.

1. GK codex WILL NOT have inducted units. Allies are effectively gone!
2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.
3. GK and GKT have plastic kits and will be troop choices.
4. Release Date is March-May window.
5. The Stormraven is in (duh) and along with Penitent Engines are currently the only two Fast Attacks slots in the dex.
6. Look for HQs changing the FoC around
7. GW will not take away your toys meaning if you bought 50 Imperial Storm Troopers they will have a place in the GK codex
8. Assassins are in as an Elite slot and any type of GK army can take them.

Let us start with the mundane stuff
GKs are Space Marines they do not have Fearless or Stubborn they have Combat Tactics and They Shall Know No Fear
GKs only vehicles options are Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Chimera and Stormraven. All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned. Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport.
GKs do not get Bikes, Jump Packs, or Chaplains
All GKs are psyker and their powers act very much in the same way as Psyker Battle Squad.
GKs will not have access to most Vanilla Marine Gear especially Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons (No Melta Spamming)

Let us get down to some specifics
Brother-Captain Stern has Eternal Warrior and his attacks can remove models from play.
The Grand Master gives out special abilities to GK units (Not USRs) We are talking weapon upgrades and minor wargear bonuses.
All GKs cause Deep Striking units to mishap if placed within 6 inches of any Grey Knight unit.
All GKs Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons and no longer Str 6.
Unlike the Archon’s court from the Dark Eldar Codex Henchman + Witchhunter rejects are Elite slots. These Squads can be mixed and have many options. For instance the Warrior can get Storm Shields and power weapon. Henchman act more like Beast Master Squads than the Archon’s Court.
Henchman include everything Daemonhosts, Death-Cult Assassins, Argo flagellants, Priests, Stormtroopers, Warriors
Holocaust is now 12 inch large blast
Mystic is now only a teleport homer
All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned (Sacred Hull). Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport. All GK vehicles are psykers with LD 10
Blessed is now a vehicle psychic power that picks one facing and raises the AV by 2 to a max of 14
GKs have access to GK Command Squads giving them access to Apothecaries (FNP)
Vindicare has unlimited ammo for all special shots.

Part 2 of the BoK rumours
GKs have access to many weapon upgrades.
GKs can pay for + str or rending for their storm bolters
Grand Masters give D3 special powers to Grey Knight units. Things like Digital Weapons, Master Crafted weapons, Wolf Standard, but with GK names.
Psycannon is Str 7 rending ap 4 either can fire 2 shots moving or 4 shots standing still.
Incenerator Str 5 ap 4 rending
Callidus Assassin = Long Fangs and Lootas no more. Works like Lictors/Marbo drops a str 4 ap 2 large blast when enters play and can still use the Neural Shredder which is now Str 8 ap 2.
The other Assassin are just updated versions of their old selves with the Culexus especially devastating to Psykers.
Their are three special character Inquisitors at least one will make Henchman Troop choices.
One GKs Special character will make Purgation Squads Troops (yes you heard that right) you can spam psycannons all you want.
One GK Special Character can take cheap termies talking Chaos Space Marine Terminator Cheap.
Grey Knights are “around” Plague Marine Cost
GKT are “around” vanilla marine termy cost.
Nemesis Force Weapons can be upgrade as well (increase initiative is one option).
Grey Knights do get a MC a cross between a Talos and Karamazov Elite choice. The plastic kit is done on this one so expect it with GK launch.
Dreadnoughts are Heavy Support.
GKT can mix and match Nemeis Force Weapons and TT/SS and get psy weapons as well.
Any GK unit can once per game gate of infinity with no deviation in the movement face and can shoot, but not assault. This could still be changed to become the new Grey Knight Teleport Attack and moved to Fast Attack slot.
Fluff– All GKs are subservient to the Inquisition beck and call. The drivers of GK vehicles are the Psykers not the vehicles themselves.

Finally some new rumours about the GKs have surfaced. Looks interesting though if they focus on all the Ordos does that mean the SoB codex wont have any Inquisitors but be SoB and Ecclesiarchy based as was rumoured a few months ago? Still schedules for March? I doubt this with BA 2nd Wave in Feb but we should know soon enough, maybe with the next newsletter.
Source


Bigred said:


> Hi there folks, its time for yet another roundup of what's been floating around out there regarding the upcoming Grey Knights. Here's what we have heard:
> 1) Further reinforcement of this being a Grey Knight/Inquisition book. Almost all the chatter has died down regarding inducted IG, and allied Space Marines. This is fundamentally said to be an Astartes book with some flavoring added in.
> 
> 2) Lots of talk of the book containing all Grey Knights units with only Imperial Assassins and Inquisitors w/retinues as choices not hailing from Titan.
> 
> 3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.
> 
> 4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing. Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites. These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).
> 
> 5) Lots of all new psychic powers all around, including Grey Knight Vehicles who are said to be difficult to stop.
> 
> 6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.
> 
> 7) LOTS of new independent characters, and tons of new Grey Knight fluff.
> 
> 8) Continued chatter of both GK Terminators and powered armored versions as troops.
> 
> 9) Talk places this codex at the new extreme of "elite" armies, in the 40k metagame diametrically opposed to horde type play.
> 
> 10) Talk still points to March 2011 for this one.


20/11/2010
Some Sisters rumours for you guys to dig into, it's not the best of news but we might have to wait until 2012 before we see some new Sisters and then 6E is rumoured to be released in the same year. It does fit GWs earlier release schedule for the Sisters, always releasing them just at the end of an edition rendering half of their rules obsolete.
Kettu posted a link to what seems to be some pages from the Blood of Martyrs book about the Sisters Hospitaller. Interesting fluff read I must say, might see some of them in the Sisters codex handing out FNP in an Aura similar to BA.


Kettu said:


> Hey, just found this neat little *teaser* from lurking in the FFG forums.





Azezel said:


> StraightSilver has posted some more from talking with Jes Goodwin.
> 
> 
> 
> StraightSilver said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StraightSilver said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


18/11/2010
Small rumours bit. Aaron Dembski-Bowden was interviewed and revealed a tiny bit of GK news. Its not much but I think we are in for another rumours drought until December-Jan.
This is the interview, just past 6min mark he mentions he will be writing a series on the Grey Knights.

Basically what he says is his next book will be the sequel to Soul Hunter and it will be called Blood Reaver, after this he is going to be doing a series on the Grey Knights.
Does this mean more than one book? A 3 book series BL likes to do?





08/11/2010
Some sad rumours to post. It seems we will not be seeing Sisters of Battle next year.


StraightSilver said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to post but the Dark Eldar rumours thread was closed and this seemed the next best place.
> 
> I had a chance to have a chat with Jes Goodwin today and got some more info regarding DE release schedule.
> 
> He said that they will have 90% of the Dark Eldar models in the Codex released by June next year, so no more than 7 months.
> 
> Basically people have waited so long for this release and as it looks set to be so popular he wanted to get everything out quickly.
> 
> There are 4 new plastic kits coming next year, he wouldn't say exactly what they were but that the Venom is definitely coming soon and they have models for both flyers listed in the Dex on ready to go (but he wouldn't confirm if these were part of the 90%).
> 
> He said that the models which would take longer were the special characters, so these may form the missing 10% which means we have a lot of new models coming soon.
> 
> He is still working on a few bits, something he wants to do is have Haemonculi passengers/hangers on the Raider but isn't sure how best to do that.
> 
> The Wych passengers/hangers on for the Raider will be included in the plastic Venom kit, but there isn't another suitabe release to make up Haemonculi equivalents.
> 
> He also said that now that rapid prototyping and CAD technology has progressed the design team can use 2 ups instead of 3 ups which means that making larger apocolypse style kits (Stompa and Baneblade) in plastic is now more possible.
> 
> This means that they are currently working on one of these types of kits as the sales for the Stompa etc were very good, but wouldn't say whether they had decided on what this would be, although I got the impression he wanted it to be Eldar.
> 
> Talking of Eldar he said that producing the Dark Eldar had fired up his enthusiasm for a new Craftworld Eldar Codex and models, and he has lots of ideas for this. However this hasn't even started yet so a new Eldar Codex is a long way off.
> 
> He is still trying to work out how best to tackle plastic Sisters of Battle but they are still being problematic.
> 
> He also mentioned that he would love to produce an Ad Mech Codex but said it would be very unlikely for GW to produce it as there isn't room in the range for them at the moment. However he said it was possible that Forge World would do them at some point, and his take on the concept was "Vampire Counts in space". In other words Necromancers and zombies, which sounds cool.
> 
> Anyway, that's pretty much it, also wanted to say that Jes was a lovely guy, very approachable and it was nice to see how passionate he was about everything he does.
> 
> Cheers.





Azezel said:


> ArmouredWing of the Bolter & Chainsword claims to have had informal chats with Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin. He relates the details thus:
> 
> 
> 
> ArmouredWing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing we didn't know before, but it appears to back up what StraightSilver said.
Click to expand...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rumours Section 5
Day/Month/Year
04/11/2010
This rumours drought is really boring, with the release of the DE tomorrow we might start seeing some solid rumours soon. It shouldnt be long before GW announces whats to come in February. Basically not much has happened on the rumours front, its been said there are no IG or IST in the GK codex at all but that doesnt make much sense if there are Inquisitors. 
That you will be able to take assassins in larger groups but I believe this is just a misunderstanding between Imperial Assassins and Death Cult Assassins.
As for release it seems like Feb might be a pretty solid month, with Skaven in Jan and Ork & Goblins in March (rumoured) that could place the GKs in Feb.
Here is a nice picture for you to look at while we wait for some solid rumours


DonFer said:


> Just found this in a Spanish forum somewhere around the web.
> 
> What do I think? It's fake. What does the forum says? It's coming to a store near you.
> 
> Since there haven't been any rumours around, I just thought a little spice wouldn't hurt anyone... so enjoy.
> 
> http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8020/inquisitioncodex.jpg


17/10/2010
Stickmonkey has posted a mock up of what the GK codex may contain.


Stickmonkey said:


> From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:
> 
> Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished
> 
> Hq: 8-9 entries
> El: 6-7 entries
> Tr: 6 entries
> Fa: 7 entries
> He: 8 Entries
> Dt: 4 entries
> 
> Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.
> 
> If true, then you've got a lot of gaps to fill.


16/10/2010
Finally some GK rumours, some of it does sound weird though like the Hellhound and Deathstrike missile but I guess they felt they´d have to flesh out the IG part of the codex, if this turns out to be true I really hope they dont go down the same path with Sisters of Battle


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm back, recovered from my jellyfish stings, and with some new rumors. These come from a new source for me, but my regular sources did not call bs. So as always, nothing is set in stone...I'm recounting exactly as I was told, so if it doesn't make sense to you, it didn't to me either. I will come out and say some of this directly conflicts other information I have, but I have my reasons to share
> 
> So this actually addresses much of the inquisition in gk questions:
> 
> Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
> ISTs are elite otherwise
> ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
> Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
> Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
> Demonhosts look to be out
> In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
> Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
> Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
> chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
> Valk only dt, no vendetta option
> Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
> Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike
> 
> Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.
> 
> (Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Edit: penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask.





Stickmonkey said:


> With regard to the "fodder" units. Dont mistake my use of the term for them being worthless or untrained. But compared to a GK...yes they would be fodder.
> 
> I did not have the CSM book near me, but I thought summoned daemons in CSM did still have an instability rule? Regardless this Purge weapon has a special ability to cause it.
> The infestation rule as described depended on some form of instability for certain daemonic units. I dont have any other info on it. Like I said, the rules info I have is subject to change.
> 
> Another bit I missed is chaos icons do not function within X" of GK units...this is GK only units not other units included in the army list. So GK in TA, AA, or PA. Not sure of GK vehicles or walkers. I think this is tied to the hoods.
> 
> Of note compared to prior posts, gone are any references to or imagery of Jetbike riding GK. I'm disappointed by this, as I think a unit of GK on jetbikes would have been pretty cool. Expecially since they were supposed to be optionally fast attack or could take a unit upgrade to an elites slot.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> PS: Am aware of the Codices correct usage. but add a p and an e and you've got a bit of armor... Codii is not a word at all, but if the meaning is conveyed in context, does it make much more of an issue than lol or OMG?


04/10/2010
Stickmonkey has made a reply about the Annointed Armour rumour, seems allot less OP with this.


Stickmonkey said:


> Small bit.
> 
> The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc...
> 
> It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...
> 
> Something to chew on at least.


01/10/2010
Dice Like Thunder has their episode 102 out. At 45:55 they talk about what codicies needs updates, yet again they mention that Sisters of Battle should get their update a few months after Codex: Grey Knights as a White Dwarf update. I hope this is not true but Ive heard this rumour before.
Dice Like Thunder URL

30/09/2010
Here are my videos from Games Day UK 2010 ​








24/09/2010
Stickmonkey brings us some new tasty rumours about the GKs


Stickmonkey said:


> Some new bits.
> 
> according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their SBs. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.
> 
> Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me.
> 
> If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits.
> 
> since this is not confirmed anyhow, this is what I've been able to gather from various sources for the GK TA sprues:
> 
> 5 legs
> 6 torsos
> 8 heads
> 6 nfw
> 5 SB
> unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
> GK TA back banner
> 6-8 shoulder shields
> 12 shoulder pads
> ~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
> 8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
> 4 hands (right/left?)
> more?


21/09/2010
Interesting post by Kettu about Sisters of Battle, some of it does make sense, at least on a timescale.
My personal release schedule would be DE, GK, Necrons and then Sisters of Battle. If we have crons early summer we could then have sisters in the autumn.
Take with the regular dose of salt but could this mean a new starter box with say Necrons vs Sisters of Battle? It would make sense if Necrons and Sisters were released back to back and Black Library released the Sisters vs Necron book that is being written by James Swallow. Interesting indeed....
Source


Kettu said:


> Don't mind me, just passing through...
> 
> But clue me in, what's so bad about JJ?
> I do feel I'm missing out on some perfectly good bitching material here.
> 
> Oh, and by the by, was talking to an new guy at my local yesterday and it turns out he's from Scotland (The accent kinda gave it away) and, ready your Sodium and Chlorine compounds everyone, he 'knows' one of the design staff and he said the Sisters are planned for September 2011 to coincide with the BL release of the Sister of Battle Snuff-Ficlet Assuredly Brilliant Novel. sarcastichand
> He also went on to say that there would be a squad of Mistresses and that Repentia were being axed (He went on to describe a few other things but I’ve forgotten most but I do remember something about the land-raider super-flamer would be appearing throughout the army).
> 
> Other then the Codex rumoured for roughly the same time frame as the proposed release date for the Sanctuary 101 novel, I personally doubt everything he said but none the less, just throwing it out there and if anyone who is in the know wants to elaborate then go for it.
> 
> [EDIT] Hmm, just noticed the blurb changed from during-S101 to post-S101 where they send a 1000pt army of girls to investigate.
> Wait, a SoB shrine is utterly wiped out to a woman and so to investigate they send little more than 1000pts equivalent force? You'd send a full army, not just a few squads.
> I don't know if this is better or worse than before.


20/09/2010
A new post from Stickmonkey, Im really looking forwards to seeing the new models.


Stickmonkey said:


> I'm about to get in trouble...in all likelihood...for stating this...so I'm going to try to be as plain but non-specific as I can...
> 
> To respond to the flood of requests for how well the plastics will mesh with the old metals...
> 
> The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.
> 
> But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.
> 
> Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.
> 
> Hope that helps...


18/09/2010
Stickmonkey popped in and left this comment, gives some hope to people who enjoy the Inquisition part more than the GK one.


Stickmonkey said:


> Just poking my head in.
> 
> It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...incl storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it DSs in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) This has all been mentioned before...
> 
> Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.


12/09/2010
Some new Imperial Assassin rumours have surfaced, its the new general statline for them. It does make allot more sense than their current statline and together with wargear bonuses (Exodus Sniper rifle brining BS to 10) might end up really nasty indeed. Its still rumours though so treat them as such.
Source


Bigred said:


> So this statline has been floating about, and said to be baseline stats for Imperial Assassins.
> 
> I would assume they would be arriving with the Q1 Grey Knight codex.
> 
> *WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:7 A:4 Ld:10 SV:4+/4+i*
> 
> Move thru cover
> Fleet
> Fearless
> 
> Thats quite the upgrade from what we have now, and is taking into account the new high BS rules from the 5th rulebook. I would assume that once dressed up with the various Assassin Clade special rules and equipment these folks would be quite nasty.


Harry had a few things to say about plastic Sisters and how GW work in general. From what I read GW will be using a new release model sometime in the future where they release new kits as they are made rather than waiting years to have many new releases and releasing them all at the same time. As a gamer Id like this system allot more, there could always be the chance of something new to buy each month rather than once every few months/years depending on what army you play.
Source


Harry said:


> Let me see if I can help a bit.
> 
> Sisters of Battle are being done. (Including plastic sisters .... obviously!)
> I first heard the project was started over 12 months ago.
> If that is correct they are more than 12 months into the project.
> Given lead times of 18 months on the plastics by now most of the sculpting for the plastics should be done (not just the sisters) and the first kits will already be finished.
> When they make plastics they make a few which come back to the sculptors to be 'checked' and given the OK before they start making gazillions (I can't think exactly what they call this off the top of my head). But they are looking for any little bits and bobs that need sharpening up, stuff they are not happy with or didn't come out exactly as they should have ... so they can go back and fiddle things a bit. (to ensure we get the best possible final version).
> So this has almost certainly happened with some of the plastics for sisters by now.
> But the existence (or not) of a little something the sculptor wants to change or tidy up a bit is not a problem. it is just a normal part of the design process. (a normal part of producing the world best toy soldiers).
> It is no more an issue than correcting a spelling mistake or changing a word to increase clarity when proof reading a book.
> 
> "Delays" are often NOT delays. Things get made then sit around the studio for months sometimes years. (If you look back at the rumours articles in the Watchman from a couple of years ago I was talking about the completed Clan rats that have only recently seen release). Stuff is not delayed it is waiting. Waiting for more stuff to be made to go with them to make a decent release, sometimes waiting for a release window when they will not be competing for sales with too much other stuff. So not delayed just not released yet.
> 
> The point is that just because something exists and isn't released (sometimes for a while) does not mean there is a problem with it.
> 
> Hope that helps a bit.


07/09/2010
New post by Stickmonkey, detailing what the Stormraven may or may not look like.
Source


> Karhedron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the bounds of the above, can you give an impression of the SR? Are we thinking "baby thunderhawk", is it something sleeker or is it totally new? Any hints very welcome.
> Good luck with that. You will be missed.
> 
> 
> 
> I draw parallels to something between a "Aliens" drop ship and a imperial lightning. But it's definately got the style of the astartes/imperium. "baby thunderhawk?" Maybe if you squint at it in a dark room...
> 
> Harry's probably right, I and treading close to some lines lately.
> 
> As far as that vehicle upgrade sprue someone else mentioned? I had pretty consistent word of mouth there was a GK tank vehicle coming, as mentioned page 1. I would not count it out, but I wouldn't bet on it being a standalone upgrade sprue ala the ork deffrolla.
> 
> Wheres my coffee? And my dramamine...
Click to expand...

Here are some pictures for you to reference
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5228/alienscolonialmarinesdr.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2126/thunderhawk.png
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5599/lightningfighter.jpg

Stickmonkey has posted some more rumours, it also seems we wont be hearing much more from him for a while. Sad but he has given us some great rumours.
Harry replied to his post and it seems the GK models will be ornate 
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Just to throw some spice in...
> 
> The gk models are ornate.
> 
> I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release.
> 
> I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.
> 
> Earliest we will have release confirmation for a Jan release will be November. But it could be early dec for the "official" notice.
> 
> I am bound by NDA not to reveal hard facts from any upcoming codex now. So I can give impressions, discuss rumors from elsewhere, or talk about pt information, so long as I don't just come out and say, such and such is definitely in the book...to simplify my restriction dramatically. I've also been given false information in the past specifically for the purpose of keeping truthseekers guessing. Although I was not aware of it at the time. I've said as much in numerous past posts, but I'm repeating all this here for the newcomers to my rumors.
> 
> Also, as I'm working on a new project for a new client now, I won't have much insight to provide for the remainder of the year beyond maybe info from a chat here or there. Which given my new timezone, I don't expect much of...
> 
> So the short of it is, you're pretty much on your own thru the end of the year unless the closer to production players start getting their info to you. Which I myself am looking forward to...I love seeing how the secret game changes.
> 
> Cheers mates!


Source


Harry said:


> I think you might have inadvertently come out and said the the SR model is definitely in the book there.
> 
> I think the GK models could reasonably be described as VERY ornate.


03/09/2010
Short note, I was permabanned from Warseer for posting this link :



I dont know whats wrong with the mods over at Warseer but they claim this link has "Offensive Images", seems someone there has a personal vendetta against me or something.
Dont worry though, I have created 7 new accounts on there using different computers around town here so I will always be able to log on and ask questions, so news and rumours wont be affected at all 
Enjoy the latest from Stickmonkey.

Stickmonkey has some new posts over at Warseer.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Combat squads were an option I know was ptd.
> 
> Since I'm only going by memory now and have no new contact, please treat this info appropriately...
> 
> Also, I under stand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.
> 
> Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the pt group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.
> 
> I got my IoB box yesterday too, it was a nice consolation after avoiding a chomping. I'll post more thoughts on that in the wfb section.
> 
> I need to sleep...I have to be on a boat in a bout an hour and it looks like were getting rain soon...sigh


Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Ok. Answering some Qs briefly.
> 
> For those asking me about the walker...see the first post. The image I posted was tongue in cheek...please don't be taking it seriously.
> 
> The gk jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has nfw in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like tl storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got 86d.
> 
> Oh, and I almost got eaten by a crocodile yesterday. They are fast... What fun.


31/08/2010
Stickmonkey posted an interesting picture of the new GK walker 
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Made it to the Daintree. Man it's beautiful. Have internet. Woo hoo.
> 
> To respond to the WL of justicars being treated similar to WG, don't place bets on that.
> 
> As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible H and E.
> 
> And finally, Found a preview of the walker. It's even painted inquisition red. ;P
> http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/479/walkerredaugj.jpg


23/08/2010
lordjerry777 pointed me towards a FW poster I have not seen before, I dont know how new this picture is but it could be a few years or so. Look at URL for the original poster, I resized it to make it easier to see.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/A1-DOUBLE-SIDED-POSTER-HECTOR-REX-REAVER-TITAN.html
[http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/483/60175240.jpg

22/08/2010
So Games Day US came and went with not much to show for in my opinion. From what I have seen so far only 3 things have come out of it, a DE picture drawn by Blanche at the event, a FW necron mini thats not codex related and a small note that FW may or may not make some Inquisition/Sisters of Battle models late next year.
From the rumours going around the net and what I have gathered I think the 40k release schedule will look something like this:
Dark Eldar
Grey Knights
Necrons
Sisters of Battle
So necrons next summer and Sisters next autumn or winter. Im sure GW would want to hammer on some Spheez Mahreenz on there somewhere though...

20/08/2010
Stickmonkey is at it again, this time posting a list of things that the GK codex could contain. He is not saying these are in the codex. He is telling people, who thinks that GKs are too small an army to get their own codex, that this is what GW could base the book around. 
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Inquisitor lord
> Inquisitor
> Chapter master
> Chapter deacon
> Chaplain
> Apothacary
> Master of the library
> Veteran gk
> Super elite retinue gk
> Gk greater daemon specialists
> Pagk
> Tagk
> Fast attack gk
> Support gk
> Gk support vehicles
> Gk insertion vehicles
> Assassins
> Stormtroopers
> Gk scouters
> Gk dreads
> 
> You really believe they cannot build a fully fleshed out army from just this list, with unique and distinct choices? No this is not rumor, but just off the top of my head it's pretty easy to see where they could go.
> 
> However, this thread is leaning heavily towards wl and not rumor discussion now. Get back on track soon or they will close it.
> 
> So here's my latest bit:
> 
> Chaos icons work to oppose Gk units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of Gk to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.


17/08/2010
Stickmonkey made a comment about the new fluff in the GK codex for those interested.
With "roles" he might mean librarians, chaplains and other titles not currently in the DH codex.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"
> 
> The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon
> 
> Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short


14/08/2010
It seems the APU walker rumours are true, Stickmonkey just confirmed it pretty much.
If you dont know the Avatar stats you can look at this link


Valerian said:


> Stickmonkey,
> 
> I received a similar note concerning this purported Walker via PM from someone that I trust. He said this "exo-armour" had stats/abities reminiscent of an Avatar.


13/08/2010
Stickmonkey has posted some corrections to his Psycannon stats, its starting to look really good. I do however think GKs might be stealin a bit of Sisters Ignore Cover abilities, then again I guess the GK will need it since they will be such a low modelcount army.
Wait what? Do you guys hear that? I think its the Daemon players crying about Anointed Armor, TA getting to reroll failed armor and inv saves is just nasty. Give them SS and TH and most people will be crying when they teleport around the board and assault.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Corrected Psycannon profile (_updated with new info_):
> 24" A3 AP3 S6, _no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers_.
> or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, _no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning) _
> 
> Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.
> 
> GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.
> 
> 
> *Disclaimer: * Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.





Stickmonkey said:


> Some bits:
> 
> Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works w/ SS. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)
> 
> 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT
> 
> 'Shrouding' basically unchanged...aka nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor? IDK)
> 
> 'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into diff terrain.
> 
> 'Aegis' enemy Psykers w/i 12" take psychic tests with +1d6


11/08/2010
Dice Like Thunder has a new podcast out, ep 97, they decided to do a UStream cast this time. Its a very long episode with allot of random stuff and some really interesting rumours for DE, GK and WH.


Dice Like Thunder said:


> 80% chance of Jan release, will be codex GK, maybe Necrons in April, Witch Hunters will be a White Dwarf update a few months later (WTF?!).
> Release items : PAGK 10man plastic kits, TAGK 5man plastic kit, some GK walker; think best items from SW and BA for dread, stormraven, GK upgrade kits for Rhinos and less likely Razorbacks, no allies, IG like fodder units.
> Dread upgrades : Librarian, psycannon, purge weapon large pie plate.
> Special Rules : Can cause instability tests in daemons and pinning for everyone else.
> Justicar IC with some Mephiston Abilities.
> Some Paladin upgrades.
> New Inquisitor
> New Stern
> Nemesis Force Weapon Standardized : PA=PW, wounds daemons on 2+ TA=Force Weapon, wounds daemons on 2+, most squads have anti psyker powers, heavy on the disabling side.
> S6 Rending, Psycannon 24" S6 Ap3 anti daemon psyker ability, Shrouding = Night Fight, some benefits against daemons


They basically list the things Stickmonkey said but there are some new and interesting stuff in there, well one thing that really got to me.
Will WH be a White Dwarf update? That would suck as some tournaments and shops only allow armies with an actual army book. Does this also mean no new models or plastic sisters? I dont know how they did with the BA PDF, did they release new models or plastic kits back then?
This is some sad rumours if it turns out to be true.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Rumours Section 6
10/08/2010
Stickmonkey over at Warseer posted a PT (Play Test) list of GKs vs an Ork army. It does seem GK will be the most expensive army in the game to field (points wise, lets hope GW dont ask for silly money for the models since you cant field too many of them).
As I suspected GKs will be getting Razorbacks and I think its safe to say the Storm Raven is now confirmed, then again this should be taken as rumours and its from PT so anything can change.
The 10man + chimera points towards IST still being in the codex.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> GK 2000pt AL from PT:
> 
> HQ
> GM w Retinue
> Named character
> 
> Elite
> 5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
> Dread - unknown configuration
> 
> Troop
> 2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
> 10-man ????? squad + chimera
> 
> Fast
> Storm Raven
> 
> No Heavies
> 
> All I've got for now, but this give an idea of how expensive GKs will be points wise. That is not much on the board for 2k, less than 30 models...


Some interesting stuff here, the TAGK TelePorted in turn 4, since they were already on the board. So it seems TAGK can teleport around the battlefield and assault in the turn they do so. Then again "later" could have meant turn 5. GK does seem like a real powerhouse at this point. Cry some more Daemon players....cry some more....


Stickmonkey said:


> The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.
> 
> GKs held most in reserve.
> PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
> unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
> TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
> The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.
> 
> 
> It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs
> 
> That all I got on followup. enjoy.





Stickmonkey said:


> Fine line between WL and rumor discussion, and I think you've crossed it. Please stay on topic.
> 
> Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.




05/08/2010
I came across this today, its some sort of fanmade campaign codex and it has some interesting stuff in it.
I read that these guys have been pretty accurate with their fandexes (fandicies?) before.
I found the GK section pretty lacking but I do suggest you take a look at Page 18. It has the Assasinorum entries and it is actually quite good.
Is this what we will be seeing in the GK dex? Are there even assassins in the dex?
Either way its a good read if you are starved for rumours 

04/08/2010
More rumours from the thread over at Warseer.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from.
> 
> From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.
> 
> Cheers.


It was mentioned that GK will have SM Sergeants stats, for those that dont know them you can take a look at this link to GWs homepage.


03/08/2010
Some interesting posts in the thread over at Warseer. I hope we will see some more juicy bits coming from that thread.
Source


Harry said:


> Stickmonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.
> 
> Release items:
> 
> Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.
> 
> 
> 
> There you go.
> (I have tried to put you straight on this one ever since you started posting).
> 
> I have had them coming in March for a while now (since I got Dark Eldar solid in the Autumn) but I have recently heard from a couple of places January being suggested. Like you, I wouldn't like to say for sure just yet.
> 
> Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).
> Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.
> Maybe some sort of colour coding.
> 
> 
> 
> Irbian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anything about artificer armour?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.
> 
> 
> 
> MadCowCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard anything about Sisters of Battle? Any hints at all which army might be after GKs?
> 
> All of the DH and WH units have been reduced to blisters so this should mean Sisters should be soon after GK. Any info on maybe a Sisters or Inquisition ally codex?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
> Not right after .... a little while after.
> 
> 
> 
> Ominous Anonymous said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stickmonkey, in addition to the jetbike rumor we also heard (from Harry) something like PA GK having a 2+ save.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No ... all I have said is they wear artificer armour.
Click to expand...

So Sisters were started "fairly soon" after GK, not sure exactly what that means but I think its fair to say we will see them sometime next year. Maybe not the codex after GK but soon after that.

More stuff from Stickmonkey.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> Harry is absolutely right.
> I have tried very hard to make sure everyone is aware my sources are not 100% solid. I am privy to "some" early design side info, and "some" PT notes or 2nd hand accounts. Occasionally I will be told information that is "permissible" to publish but always with the caveat that I may be fed misinformation. From what I've said in the past I think a few people here may know exactly what I do. But I still have to write a disclaimer up each time I post.
> 
> Back to info:
> The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.
> 
> The box sets should all be plastic.
> 
> I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...
> 
> While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.
> 
> A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons.
> 
> Some models "may" be on display at GDUK.





Stickmonkey said:


> While the discussion was about units...the rule name was "Out the Heretic" not Heretics...so that could be telling...or not.
> 
> Personally, I expect this rule, if it makes the codex to be more similar to the "Sarge is acting strange" rule.




02/08/2010
Yay, update time. There has been nothing to report on for almost 4 weeks. Too much Rockethammer going around and nothing for 40K.
Stickmonkey is back over at Warseer and he has some juicy GK rumours for us, both good and bad ones.
Source


Stickmonkey said:


> So there's been some buzz elsewhere about GK, and it's been a while for me here so here's some bits and pieces.
> 
> Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.
> 
> Release items:
> 
> Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.
> 
> 
> 
> Boxes:
> Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???
> 
> TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?
> 
> PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?
> 
> walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.
> 
> Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> Blisters:
> New Stern
> 
> New Chaplain?
> 
> Justicar upgrade character
> 
> Paladin upgrade character
> 
> Inquisition character
> 
> 2 other blisters unknown contents
> 
> 
> 
> Other:
> Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Rule bits, these are very subject to revision, but not for much longer, to hit a Jan/Mar window codex needs to be tied up and sent to printers soon:
> 
> NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.
> 
> Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.
> 
> Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.
> 
> Psycannon profile PT changes to 24" H3 AP3 S6, special against daemons and psychics. or if unmoving 5" blast 36" range
> 
> Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?
> 
> No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.
> 
> New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.
> 
> All for now.
> 
> enjoy
> 
> StickMonkey


So Jan or March release? No Allies was expected and it seems we have finally gotten "confirmation" its a GK standalone codex. Im a bit sad at this but you cant have everything.
Less focus on Inquisition, so this means there will still be Inquisitors in the army. Does this mean there wont be a Inquisition supplement or Ally codex as there has been some rumours for?

Boxes : Storm raven was obvious, plastic TA and PA knights as well. A walker of some sort, I bet its the Space Marine Venerable Dreadnought with a GK sprue in it with Psycannon, NFW and Incinerator options.
Rhino based with psycannon, if I remember correctly there is a Razorback version that has the Psycannon option (atleast my Sisters got ownd by another player using that on Vassal.
7 blisters? That sounds a bit high but it does make sense since the GK is a small and elite army so GW wouldnt make single character plastic kits like they do for SM...
2 blisters with unknown contents, if GW are lazy I would bet 1 blister with Dread Psycannon and NFW. If this is the case Im buying the FW ones.
New Psycannon seems interesting, sounds like they are making the army a 24" army similar to sisters who are 12-24".

Seems promising, will be interesting to see what kind of inducted units they can take, not same as guard units is interesting. Does it mean units from other codicies or that they are IG but with other statlines and called something else.



Stickmonkey said:


> With regard to the "fodder" units. Dont mistake my use of the term for them being worthless or untrained. But compared to a GK...yes they would be fodder.
> 
> I did not have the CSM book near me, but I thought summoned daemons in CSM did still have an instability rule? Regardless this Purge weapon has a special ability to cause it.
> The infestation rule as described depended on some form of instability for certain daemonic units. I dont have any other info on it. Like I said, the rules info I have is subject to change.
> 
> Another bit I missed is chaos icons do not function within X" of GK units...this is GK only units not other units included in the army list. So GK in TA, AA, or PA. Not sure of GK vehicles or walkers. I think this is tied to the hoods.
> 
> Of note compared to prior posts, gone are any references to or imagery of Jetbike riding GK. I'm disappointed by this, as I think a unit of GK on jetbikes would have been pretty cool. Expecially since they were supposed to be optionally fast attack or could take a unit upgrade to an elites slot.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> PS: Am aware of the Codices correct usage. but add a p and an e and you've got a bit of armor...  Codii is not a word at all, but if the meaning is conveyed in context, does it make much more of an issue than lol or OMG?


Psychic hood now cancels marks? Thats pretty interesting, I bet it would cause psychers to have to roll powers on 3D6 similar to the board wide thing Eldar have as well as the psychic war diceoff other SM codicies have for their hoods. 


40K Radio has just come out with their second podcast (though they say its their first true podcast since the other one was introduction, though it says 2 on the site... you do the math),
in it they mention some GK and DE rumours. For GK they talk about the stormraven and things like that but in the rumours section at around 38:50min they mention that DH/WH items have been pulled from the store. This started happening back in February so a bit late on this rumour but they do mention that the new helms from FW could maybe be Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters themed. FW has said they fit into the 42st millennium but they also mention that Jervis lied Romeo about space hulk last year when he got to ask Jervis who told him "I can quarantee you we have no plans to relaunch Space Hulk" 
So pre Heresy or Grey Knight helms?








Personally I would say there is no way this could be a GK, not enough details, looks too old school and the powerpack looks like its an old steam engine.
FW website says they are MK III IRON ARMOUR so its not related to GKs, correct me if Im wrong though or if Im mistaken on the FW model I think they are talking about.

They also mention that there is a picture going around on the net showing some GW graphics artists monitor with a GK codex cover on it. I have not seen this picture, if someone knows about this picture please send me a link or post a reply with a link to where I can see it. If its fake or not who knows but I would still like to see it.

At 49:30 they say "I just hope I see a Stormraven when the Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter books comes out". So more combined codex speculation? Will be interesting to see what the rumours say in the next couple of months, combined vs GK solo dex : FIGHT!

Yes, Im pretty starved for new rumours. If you know something or see or hear something you think I might be interested in please do let me know.



06/07/2010
Dice Like Thunder ep 93 is out. They talk about the WH&DH PDFs amongst other things.
Dice Like Thunder

While searching bloggers for GK rumours Ive stumbled upon these
I found an old post by Jawaballs claiming the Stormraven and Plastic GK terminators will come in September. This was posted on the 5th of May so take it with allot of salt since we know there is a Fantasy starter set coming in September


Jawaballs said:


> Grey Knight Rumors: Incoming Storm Raven!
> Based on reliable sources, the Storm Raven will be making it's debut this September, along with plastic GK terminators and a plethora of other models. What does this mean for all of our sweet little conversions? Were they a waste of time? Hell no, we had fun didnt we?
> 
> The new model will be a huge boon for GW. Blood Angels and Grey Knights were two hugely anticipated armies, perhaps more so with the GKs. Giving the GKs the storm raven was a stroke of genius to increase their hype even more. They will sell a boat load. Since every one who has ever played Dawn of War the video game absolutely loves Grey Knights, every fan will be dieing to build an army. I sure will! I started 40k with Daemonhunters (because I liked GKs from DoW) I have since sold off the models I collected, but a new codex and model line will surely get me back into the fold! Plus I have been looking for an alternative to my Blood Angels for a while. GKs will give me that push I need. What about Dark Eldar? I will definitely be making a DE army when that book comes out too.
> 
> Until then, this little beauty pictured above is available for sale. Comment here if you are interested!
> 
> Jawaballs


Fritz over at Saimhann believes GK are set for a Jan release, he seems utterly convinced too. Im starting to wonder if there is room for a 40k release this year? The only slot left would be November but dont GW usually release a 40K codex, then fantasy, then 40K. So 2 40K codicies right after each other?
Source


Fritz said:


> *Grey Knights Codex Release: 1/2011*
> You have been hearing the whispers in the warp, and they are true.... I'm calling it here and now so I can later say "told you so"- a Daemonhunter codex release in the January 2011 40K slot, and I'm not just pulling comments and rumors from the local boards. I've got my own source in the warp...
> 
> 
> 
> Start stocking up on those models now that nobody wants, and all the GK / DH stuff you can get cheap on r. market and b. town. GK's are going to make BA look like twilight emo rejects, but the question remains will they be able to dethrone IG? Probably not as they will still be a small elite based army, but packing a serious punch- base nemesis force weapons = S6 rending power weapons, and look for a new GK dread variant that makes a joke of furioso libby dreads and Bjorn...
> 
> Dark Eldar...Dark who? Sadly space marine seem to sell, drug using space elves don't!


05/07/2010
Bindi Baji had some interesting things to say about the GK codex. CSM chatter? Id rather see another 3ed codex get updated before we got more Spheez Mahreenez :crazy:
Source


Bindi Baji said:


> GK codex is currently being put together (fluff, art) and playtesting is happening now.
> dead centre january is the date it's pencilled in for,
> curiously enough the date seems to be more "in stone" then anything not related to 8th edition fantasy.
> 
> additionally there is CSM + O&G chatter




04/07/2010
Was going around looking for rumours when I came across a post saying there were some GK rumours over at Librarium Online. Since Ive never been there I decided to take a look.
I found this post in the Dark Eldar section.
Source


The Hawk said:


> Hey
> 
> Latest sniff around the web, and have seen some things of interest.
> 
> For all fo you Wych Cult fans out there, you would be delighted to here that Lelith is in, an is getting totally redone. Whatever is not being dropped is being tweaked. Hopefully we will finally see a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat like NORMAL Wyches this time.
> 
> I don't want to dampen anyone's day with this next one, but there is rumors that there is going to be a Khemri release out soon. This means to coincide with Warhammer Fantasy release, that the anticipated Tomb Kings will be set. I am so hoping that this happens AFTER our release, and that for the... (counts fingers) 23rd time we are not postponed!
> 
> Grey Knights are all but confirmed for a January release which leaves plenty of room open for us to breathe. Necrons may be due in March/April next year as well. But you know GW. The DE could be replaced with the Necrons. 99% chance of not happening, but there is still room open for us to have all of our air sucked clean from us.
> 
> And in great tradition to keep up with what the DE are all about, Grotesques are in, depsite popular belief, and there rules are suppossed to be so that even Marneus Calgar will go home crying to mommy. Hopefully we get to see a LD check and modifier that ignores Fearless and Stubborn, and actually works!
> 
> Some great new Special Characters are making appearences as well. And the existing ones are either getting entirely new models ( sucks to be those that own Vect ), or being removed utterly. If trends are to kee continuing, we should be seeing 2-3 of our existing ones kept, with maybe 4-5 new ones being added.
> 
> And thank Slaanesh, it seems that Kruellagh is being removed!
> 
> Nothing game shattering here, except if we see some high profile SCs being included. And, as of now (should've done this before) I dub THIS thread right here the OFFICIAL LO Dark Eldar Rumors Thread. So post rumors HERE, unless you want your eyes pecked out.
> 
> Good Hunting.
> 
> PS: I know I am being quite egotistical about asking, but if there is a sweet nice moderator out there who could find it in their dark abyss of a beating heart to sticky this thread, I would personally sacrfice 100 bulls in their name... if they are into that type of stuff. I know it is wrong to ask a thread that you created to be a stickied, but I feel that this would gain much more attention than what it is currently receiving, and would be far more beneficial to fellow Dark Eldar players who have waited so many damned years for these type of rumors. I will put sugar on top of this pretty please if you want me to???
> 
> Good Hunting.


I did manage to find the rumours post so take it for what it is. It does make me wonder if Sisters might be in the GK codex?
Source


Lord Borak said:


> Just a wee snippet I heard about the new Kngihts. Terminators will be plastic, New walkers that looked like they were straight out of Matrix 3. Crewed by Knights.
> 
> Plus some Dark Eldar stuff but we don't care about that





Lord Borak said:


> One of my mates had a wee tour around the Studio and saw lots of shiney new things in the Cabinets up there
> 
> All he told me about the Dark Eldar is that there were the most beautiful models GW have ever produced. I'll see if I can get some more info from him on Saturday. The beer flows and peoples mouths tend to start talking.
> 
> I'll update it when I hear more!


The only model GW makes that even remotely resembles the APU walker from The Matrix happens to be the Penitent Engine. GK getting Penitent Engines? The only army allowed to field them is the Ecclesiarchy which the SoB are part of. So if this rumour is true does that mean a new walker ripping off the APU/Penitent Engine? or the Ecclesiarchy part of the codex? 
If the Ecclesiarchy was part of the GK codex then the Sisters of Battle would have to be as well because the Ecclesiarchy teaming up with GK does not really make much sense without Sisters.
Im sure they could make up some fluff turning the Ecclesiarchy into something similar to the Inquisition, so maybe you can field some Inquisitorial stuff and some Ecclesiarchy stuff in the new GK codex but without Sisters it just would not make sense to me. Then again its GW we are talking about... :crazy:















Will Grey Knights fighting Daemons look something like this with the new codex?
P.S. This is why Open Topped sucks, Enclosed Crew Compartment upgrade plz ​




Also found this post.
Source


Jared van Kell said:


> As it stands from my source (and no I will not tell you my source for obvious reasons) it goes like this. As I said this is still a work in progress so it is likely this may have changed.
> 
> Normal Grey Knights/Justicar - Powerweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+.
> Grey Knight Terminators/Paladin - Powerweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+ (Possibility may be master-crafted)
> Brother Captain - Forceweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+ (Possibility may be master-crafted)
> Grand Master - Forceweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+, Re-roll invulnerable saves (Again possibility may be master-crafted).
> 
> With regards to the terminators the Nemesis Forceweapon will not be the main draw but rather the psychic powers that the Paladin will be able to use, which will be quite nasty. I also have heard that they will be retaining their ability to take thunder hammers and storm shields but again at an increased cost similar to the Blood Angels.
> 
> Please remember these are still only rumours and should be treated as such until further confirmation arrives. Apply salt and/or common sense to taste.


02/07/2010
When the WH/DH pdfs came out I sent a "nerd rage" email to GW complaining about it. I was fishing for info and it seems to have worked yet again (it seems the more abusive you are the more willing they seem to provide you with a little bit of reassurance).



GW Customer Support said:


> Hi there
> 
> As we have all the details of your address and account with us we can delete them for you so you are no longer are an online customer with us and cancel/refund/exchange any of the details you wish. If you have any problems or issues in the future we can ring you if necessary to discuss and problem if it is easier for you.
> 
> Please, realize that we are not here to be abused by our registered customers or anyone else and will not in the future tolerate such petty abusive childish attitudes towards us, who are here to help you. Any further such behavior will get no response or help.
> 
> However, you were clearly not lied too. That is not what we are here to do.
> We are here to help when and where we can.
> 
> The email you have included does not state this year and says in the near future. And it is correct.
> 
> How has this lied to you? It is simply a case of waiting. I will tell you that some point within the next year or so we should expect to see them.
> 
> We have no further details as this is confidential information that even we our selves get little information about.
> 
> But as the codex's have been taken off sale and the models are still there, it is clearly likely that that an update will be there in the future.
> 
> Any one can see that the codex's on line were not part of an update.
> Think about it. The codex is not on sale... What if you own one and it is damaged or you wish to try out the army but cant get the rules...
> 
> What would you do? You could not do anything (I could torr..erm, ur right, I could do nothing). It would be bad of us to sell the models and not have some means of still obtaining the rules for the above reasons. That is a very good thing.
> 
> I think it becomes clear this way. No lies at all from us. You have misread and over reacted to the situation in a completely rude and ill considered manner.
> 
> I sincerely hope you do not get rid of your models or ruin your hobby to spite yourself. I think in the next year you will see what is coming out and be very happy with it. There would likely be a lot more new items also. However your current Grey knights would still be usable in any new army.
> 
> If you have any further questions or queries, please feel free to contact us on 0115 914 0000 and we will be happy to help.


A few interesting bits in this email.
I will tell you that some point within the next year or so we should expect to see them.
Within the next year or so we should expect to see THEM. So does this mean we will get a new WH/SoB codex sometime next year?
I think in the next year you will see what is coming out and be very happy with it.
There would likely be a lot more new items also.
However your current Grey knights would still be usable in any new army.
Does this mean within 1 year or starting next year? As in GK being released in Jan for instance?
A lot more new items? Sounds goooood 
The last statement should be ignored, I wrote another email to them apologizing for my first mail and he said he meant WH and not GK. So does this mean I will be able to ally Sisters into other armies but not GK?



GW Customer Support said:


> Hi there
> 
> I do understand your frustration and of-course it is
> disappointing when people give you different answers.
> 
> I meant witch hunters not grey knights, that was my typing error,
> however, you will also be happy with Grey-knights in the near future.
> 
> The miss print on allies in the PDF is just that and we are looking at
> getting it sorted out. Either way I have been told that this does not in
> anyway alter the current codex. So for the time being allies are still
> allowed.


The email I got from them back in March said an Inquisition codex was to be done in the "near future", not sure what near future is to GW but it seems to be around 1 years time. I guess you could take this as confirmation that the codex will indeed be GK but take it with a piece of salt since customer support at GW sometimes know less than the public...



GW Customer Support March 2010 said:


> Hi there
> 
> Daemonhunters and Witchhunters are not being discontinued. The codexes and a number of products have been removed from the range as we are looking to do a new Inquisitorial codex at some point in the near future.
> 
> I would recommend keeping an eye on the website and in White Dwarf for developments on this product.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers


There was some Vindicare rules rumours over at DakkaDakka, take with a spoonful of salt since last time someone posted rules rumours over there they were later revealed to be made up.
Source


Tek said:


> I was talking to a Redshirt last weekend about the lack of Allies in the new GH/WH Codex. He neither confirmed nor denied this, but seemed to give off an air that Allies are indeed gone.
> 
> He did however say he "knew the new assassins rules" and preceeded to tell me the rules for the new Vindicare. As always, redshirt blabber can always use a nice pinch of salt, but this is interesting nonetheless.
> 
> The Exitus Rifle bestows BS10 on the wielder. This means a 2+ to hit, with a 2+ reroll if missed, as per the rulebook. Essentially 2+ TL.
> Can't remember the AP value, but I imagine it's 1.
> 
> Shield Breaker round now not only ingores Inv., but actually removed that model's ability to gain an Inv. (this supposedly represents the Vindi's super-sniper ability; he's actually shot the refractor field generator, or the warpstone, or the intangible link to the warp :S)
> Turbo-Pen Inflicts D6 wounds, and is super-good against vehicles (don't remember this bit)
> 
> I don't remember much else, but essentially the Stealth Suit and Spy Mask are now uber-awesome, and he will will allegedly be a very expensive dude. I wish I could reme,ber everything he told me, it sounded epic.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Rumours Section 7
Day/Month/Year
28/06/2010
While reading the usual forums I came across this. Take it for what it is, if it is true we will have to wait until late July/August before we would know if GK got the October slot.
I do believe we will see a 40k codex in October but which one I cant say for sure.
Since they have told us what's in the September slot I would expect them to tell us what's in the October slot sometime next month.
However, this is what some of the rumours suggest. So if we look at the below statement could it mean GK getting released sooner? Its hard to judge since we have 3 rumoured release dates for GK; Oct, Dec and Jan with Oct and Jan being the more reasonable. So if its earlier than the rumours suggest then Oct would seem the most likely. I guess a December release is plausible if GW launches the StormRaven in hopes for a new Vendetta sales record just in time for Christmas.
Then again the little birdies tells me to burn stuff all the time so use your own judgement regarding this rumour
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerra
A little birdy told me to expect the removal of allies in the GK codex. He also says to expect the codex "earlier than the rumors are suggesting." He just sold his GK army so that he could paint up the new models when they are released (he said that the new models are looking pretty stellar, on par with the new Dark Eldar models). He's not planning to be without his army for very long.

GW is being very tight-lipped about the GK release, and he said to expect it to be very quiet on the rumor front until 2 months before release.

I'm still taking this with a grain of salt (I want to keep my daemonhost ally ) but the source seemed reliable and I can confirm that he has contacts with the higher-ups in GW.
26/06/2010
Was listening to The 11th Company Podcast Ep 22 and at around 150 minutes in, when talking about the Elite section of the space marine codex, one guy mentions that Inquisitors with mystics are going away in December.
This statement is kinda of curious, GK in December then? Something GW has never done before but would make sense if they launched the storm raven at the same time.

25/06/2010
timsmith just posted a link to a blog post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timsmith View Post
just spotted this link over on the GK forum. Havent seen it yet so thought id post it.
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2010/06...ne-link.html#/

fritz is a well respected tournament player and it shouldnt be blown streight out of the water. But we have heard things before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz
So GW has just put up the Daemonhunter codex online: Link Here if you want to grab it. I was hoping they would fix the assault cannon from heavy 3 to 4 with rending but oh well. However, this only confirms to me the rumors, and a tip off that I can't name yet that Daemonhunters are the next codex to drop in the October slot. If half of what I have heard is true the new 'knights are going to make Blood Angels look like Twilight emo rejects in terms of being over powered- S6 power weapons with rending as standard...oops did I say that...

Dark Eldar players take another punch in the nuts and go back to the end of the line...(Well Said )
S6 rending weapons was posted by the guy over at DakkaDakka who later said he made it all up so take this with a grain of salt. I would really like GK to be next but who knows.

24/06/2010
Beasts of War have an extensive video up where they talk about the Geek Nations Tour (TUUR).
They mention they are unsure what will be next, DE or GK so they have changed their minds from saying GK are next to being unsure 
YouTube- Inside BOW: Geek Nation Tours

19/06/2010
Bell of Lost Souls has a small article about Radical Daemonhunters. Nothing new but its still worth a look if you like radical Inquisitors. They mention GK is rumours for a Jan 2011 release but nothing concrete on a release date. While waiting for new information its worth the read.
Radical Daemonhunters

16/06/2010
Just some general thoughts on my part. With the Fantasy rumours today it seems that there will be a Fantasy starter box in September.
From what I know its called Island of Blood and is to be released in September, no news yet on races but people have been talking High Elves and Skaven.
I was hoping for a 40k release in September but that seems very unlikely right now. This puts us in a rather tight spot for DE and GK this year.
The people who usually bring us rumours claim DE are next and October would be a likely month for a release, on the other hand a few webshops say GK will be out this year.
I would like to see both but I seriously doubt that will happen though there have been some speculation about a December release for the GK tied in with a Stormraven release just in time for Christmas.
This rumour has been shot to pieces by allot of people simply because GW has never had a new release in December, only boxed sets and bundle deals.
So where does this put us? This is my personal speculation from what Ive gathered around the web, its in NO way official.
October : 40K Release, most likely Dark Eldar
November : Fantasy Release
December : Christmas bundles and sets
January : 40K Release, most likely Grey Knights

11/06/2010
SamaNagol over at Warseer claims that UK Managers have seen DE plastics over at GW HQ. Take this with a HUGE bucket of salt, people are saying its not true.
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamaNagol
Managers of UK Stores have seen DE plastics at head office during a course recently. GK models have not yet been seen by any of the store employees. This would imply that GK are still too far off to allow chatty managers to be shown them.

As 8th Ed Fantasy rulebooks are now in stores to read and pre-order for their mid-July release, and the Boxed Set has been confirmed as a September release, there will be a 40k Codex in October and it will be Dark Eldar firs
Some news for the GKs vs DE next codex battle. BOLS has posted some rumoured weapons profiles for the DE army.
Im starting to believe DE will be next with GKs to follow early next year. Argh, why cant they come out and tell us already
Source
Quote:
Its been a long quiet while on the Dark Eldar front, but here is a taste of rumored weapon stats that have been floating about out there:

Splinter Rifle: 12" S:2 AP:5 Rapid Fire, Poisoned (4+)
Splinter Pod: 18" S:3 AP:5 Assault 2, Poisoned (4+)
Splinter Cannon: 24" S:2 AP:5 Heavy 6, Poisoned (4+)

Still no solid word on schedule, but the smart money is now leaning toward a Dark Eldar unveiling at Games Day UK, with a full release in October on the heels of the Fantasy 8th boxed set.

~Standard caveats on all this stuff until copies of the Dark Eldar codex are in our greedly little hands, but there is a lot of food for thought in those stats. In particular I like the feel of an army using a standard sidearm with the stats that Splinter Rifle has. It would be the most distinctive basic weapon to hit the tabletop since the Tau Pulse Rifle. Time will tell how close to mark these may be.

08/06/2010
Blue Table Painting has a video out on youtube where they talk about starter armies.
At 6:38 they mention that DH are coming out later this year so dont buy any of those yet, dont buy WH either but they just said they are too expensive (which is true).
They say DE are imminent so dont waste any money on those either.
YouTube- BTP Musings- Good 40K Armies for...

Was pointed to a thread over at Warseer, it seems Jervis responded to an email sent to him asking about the GK and SoB.
Take from it what you want, I did get the impression that DE are next from reading this. That they still have things to do on both GK and SoB but this is just me trying to read between the lines
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking657
Dear XXXX,

I just wanted to drop you a quick line to thank you for your recent letter, and apologise for the very late reply. Unfortunately the number of letters I recieve means that I can't reply personally to all of them, but I did want to let you know that I had recieved and read yours, and really appreciated the fact you took the time to write. Please don't hesitate to get in touch again; I read all of the mail I recieve and find it really helps to keep me in touch with the grass roots of the hobby.

Then its signed by Jervis

P.S Don't worry, neither the Grey Knights nor the Sisters have been forgotten. We have plans for both - its just that, like the Dark Eldar, it will take a while for these plans to reach fruition.
07/06/2010
Found a new podcast that just came out with their first episode. Life After the Cover Save is a new podcast about 40k. They talk about 40k in general and at 38:45 they have a small news section where they mention they believe Dark Eldar are next.
So which is next? DE or Inquisition? All this waiting is driving me mad

06/06/2010
Fireborn

Just listened to this audio book because its story also involves Sisters of Battle. The audio book refer to allot of things in 40k, like Codex Grey, Bolters, Pintle mounted weapons, flamers and heavy flamers, melta guns and bombs. It is accurate to the tabletop in EVERY regard...except for one thing. It mentions that Immolators have Inferno Cannons.
"A pair of Immolator battletanks spearheaded the Ecclesiarchy counterassault. Their Inferno cannons were short ranged but deadly."
Is this a hint of whats to come? The author not knowing what the Immolator is armed with even though everything else related to the tabletop is accurate? I dont know when Fireborn was actually made but its not that old. Could the author have gotten a preview look at what the Immolator will be armed with in the next codex?
Probably just a mistake on the authors part, then again I remember reading that the Hellhound tank was engineered to perfection from using the Immolator designs which were incomplete.

Dice Like Thunder has ep 90 out of their podcast about Warhammer 40k.
They believe Dark Eldar are next and scheduled for a Septemberish release.

05/06/2010
Modelling-Mayhem is at it again. A few people were sceptical about what I found on their website and commented about it. So the Modelling-Mayhem guy made this reply.
This is in no way a confirmation the Inquisition is next, its just a reply to all the NaySayers (Read the first Horus Heresy book if you dont know this reference)
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by modelling-mayhem View Post
I'd Happily put my house and money on the fact that WH and DH are up next! The foundations are already set for this...

Codex = Removed from sale
Models = Removed from sale

Everyone is chatting about DE or Crons next up and this month and that month blah blah!! But the one thing they are over looking is the fact that:

DE = still available on many Indie sites for sale - and no not just left over stock
Crons = Still available too!

Go figure!! I think we are set for DH and WH definately, and im more than happy to stand in defence of my opinion. Whether this will be a combined Dex or seperates I am not in the light but as far as the pdf's being released on GW site these are just 3rd ed.

If they were anything else then GW would have them placed in WD and charge us £4 to have a nosy at!!

Btw Hello Heresy : )

Regards
Tim


03/06/2010
White Russian posted a link to some really awesome fan art today. Some believe it to be a GK codex cover, novel etc etc. I think its just a piece of fan art, its awesome none the less 
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Russian
http://hokunin.deviantart.com/art/Grey-Kni...-ahito&qo=2

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1011x791.


I may not be the brightest person with uber search-fu skillz, but can someone please shed light on this.
It looks to me like fan art, but why there are GW and 40k markings on that picture? Is this a novel or something else?
Cheers

01/06/2010
Bits and Kits believe DH and WH are next.
Im starting to get hopeful, I did past my Act of Faith roll with an 8 on a 3D6 (2D6 as normal, +1D6 for doubt and got 5,2 and a 1) roll last night so I still have some hope left.
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by fynn View Post
well i dont want to disagree, but according to there website, and a thread over on dakdaka, theyve only just started stocking GW in the last month, so if that is the case, that got there DE stock from somewhere
Exactly, this is why I found it interesting. They havent even sorted out half the stuff they are going to be selling yet. So how were they able to get DE stock?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
All items that were available at the start of the year for indies are still order able now including the codex, the dark eldar are not next the DH and WH are next after deamons
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Hard to say, alot of what they are doing is standard procedure, models removed from the indie ordering list means one of three things, new box art,models moved to online only or new codex, but if the codex is removed from the order list at the same time as the core models then its a new codex situation.This has been the case for the last 2 and half years with only space marines being the exception and even then some of the model were unavaiable for a short period because of box art.

A few things are out of the ordinary, firstly this is happening to two ranges at the same time in the same game system and those two armies have close links,leading to speculation of a combined codex.
Secondly DH core troops are still available online from GW direct, this could mean they have alot of back stock or it could point to seperate codexs but released close together and its just the timing and nature of the sales that means they apear to be linked but infact GW knew with current sales level clearing the back log of DH would take longer than clearing the back log of WH stock.
Thirdly PDF codex's this to me is the biggest proof that they are coming next, the paper codex is gone so what better way to market a soon to be released army than to put the old out dated codex on to the website for free? that means anyone who may be interested in starting the army that does not current own the paper codex can read it for free which translates in to sales for the new paper codes when it is released, this type of technique is employed by retailers all the time, give a customer something for nothing that costs you nothing, hook them in with the freebie and reel them in.Dont forget GW survives by selling new products to new collectors,veterans who already own a DH or WH army are not GW target market,hard to understand but the maths is simple,if you have 2000 points of WH on your shelf you are not likely to purchase another 2000 points of models and a codex just because new model are released. When the eldar codex came out i replaced war walkers and wraithlords, everything else i liked but ignored.
This arena of selling to collectors is something GW are getting better at, unlike most other things in our world Minis are not really a disposable item and due to the nature of the animal most gamers look after there armies so breakages and natural wastage are very small,from a retail point of view that's a bad thing because it means you dont get many repeat sales on anything other than the consumable item like paint and glue, so GW need to make every new army appealing enough to make people want to collect more than one army (or in the case of appocalypse collect more of it)
31/05/2010
Just a small tidbit. When talking about all this over at warseer I was pointed to this post
This was posted on the 20th of May, could it be that there is some truth to all of this? Only time will tell, if the codicies are 3ed all of this probably means nothing,
if they on the other hand are 5ed it would most likely mean a release is imminent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Not sure if anyone is interested or if its been mentioned before, but as an indie trader i can no longer purchase any WH of GK sets, not even the immolater, i think september is the most likely based on my conversation with trade sales today

UPDATE:
I called them and got to talk to a very friendly guy. I asked him about the below statements and where he got them from. Basically he told me that he had a tradings account with GW (which all independent stockists have) and that he got the information from there.
When I asked about if he had seen anything about a combined codex he stated that from what he read there would be 2 codicies and that they are the next ones to be released.
Im going to be calling other webshops and different GW stores today to try and milk them for some infp  This could prove to be a very interesting day.
Then again, maybe he misunderstood what he read, maybe what he saw was simply the PDF release of the old DH and WH codicies.
Im sceptical but maybe I will find something else out from my calls today.

UPDATE 2:
I called Games Workshop and asked them about this.
The person I spoke to did not know where they might have heard these rumours but to his knowledge DH and WH are not get a new release anytime soon.
I asked him about the PDFs and he told me that they are scheduled to be released in the first week of June. I asked if they are updated for 5ed or not and he told me they should be.
He claimed that this was the first time GW has ever released codicies on the website (I reminding him of the old Blood Angel but he said that was not a true codex but the DH/WH will be) and that not much is being changed for them.
To be honest it sounds to me like he doesnt really know much about the release. I still think it will be 3ed but if they have updated rules for 5ed I will be really happy.

UPDATE 3:
Called a GW store in Finland and asked them about the PDF.
I asked if it will be 5ed rules or 3ed rules, he said ofc it will be 5ed. I asked him from where he heard this and he told me "why would they release 3ed rules?"
I told him that people are speculating that it will simply be a copy of the 3ed codicies since you can no longer buy them, this made him change his mind.
He became unsure but was certain the rules would be up on the website soon.

UPDATE 4:
Called a GW store in Sweden and asked about it. It seemed like the guy had never even heard about the PDF release so got nothing from him.
He did say he would expect the rules to be for 5ed but had no idea.

New Webstore
There is a new miniature webshop that has just opened business. This is their announcement thread over at DakkaDakka
The reason Im mentioning this new webstore is that they have some interesting things to say about Daemonhunters and Witchhunters, click to check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk
Games Workshop has released information stating that the next new army and codex is for Witch Hunters. So Modelling-Mayhem will list these items when the new stock is released. Keep checking back for updates!
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk
Games Workshop has released information stating that the next new army and codex is for Daemonhunters. So Modelling-Mayhem will list these items when the new stock is released. Keep checking back for updates!
If this is true or not who knows, but there is nothing like this mentioned for DE. They even have Dark Eldar FOR SALE, I have never seen a webshop offer this before. I thought it was direct only? Going to contact the shop and hear what they have to say, this could be interesting 

30/05/2010
I saw a poster refer to the below post over at WarSeer. From what I have gathered it seems DE are next but could there be any truth to this post?
With the fake rumours posted over at DakkaDakka Im very sceptical on unknown people posting rumours.
Many people have commented that Jervis and a few others have said there will be no combined codex (GK&SoB),
the rulebook mentions Forces of the Imperium rather than DH and WH. Could they have planned to combine them from the start?
I choose to be sceptical, you make up your own minds.
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushkin
Disclaimer
1. I am aware that other reliable sources have said there will not be a combined codex
2. I am aware that GW staff don't always have access to the best information
3. I am just posting what i heard in a GW store, please no personal remarks.

My girlfriend asked about sisters of battle in a GW store today and was told by a staff member that they are being re-released in October following a presentation at Games Day. He said it would be a combined codex.

As i mentioned in my disclaimer above i am aware many reliable sources have stated that there will not be a combined codex. My GF was asking specifically after sister of battle and he said that they would be part of a combined codex. However, this does fit in with some other rumours that plastic grey knights are being released in October and the fact the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codexs are going out of print and being moved online.

Anyway thats all i've heard. I don't know whether its true or not.

Cheers.
21/05/2010
Bloodofkittens.com has some Dark Eldar Rumours going atm, it also mentions that DE are next and not GK.
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyTaste
Typically I leave the rumors to Bell of Lost Souls and Warseer. This time though I been made privy to some great news from a reliable source (at least he thinks he is reliable hehe) concerning the Dark Eldar. These rumors are a mix of new, along with greater clarity of old. So without further ado here is what I gots…

Three new skimmers

1. Vyper/Razorback hybrid transport with many weapon options.
2. “Fighter” designed to take out other skimmers.
3. “Bomber” designed for well bombing…

Mandrakes are in and have scout (duh)

Melta & Lance weapon confirmed str 6 12″ range.

Talos is in, specialized in killing Walkers.

Combat drugs are in and are “streamlined”

Army wide ability which is a cross between Red Thirst and Epidemius tally power (revolves around casualties inflicted)

No vehicle will have an AV higher than 11 (keeping with past editions)

Dark Eldar are a designed as an Alpha Strike army. If you can survive the first turn you will have a good shot of beating them.

Expect a Sept-Nov release. So put away your Nemesis Force Weapons they are not coming till Jan 2011 at the earliest.

As a reminder my site has never done these kinds of rumors before so take that as a warning. As well GW does change it’s mind on a whim. If this information does pans out expect more otherwise I will return to my regularly schedule douchery.
20/05/2010
DarkLink over at BOLS has made a short rules rumour compilation for the GK.
Its nice to have it all in one place so if you havent seen them before here they are.
He even linked to this thread 
Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
With the WH/DH rumor discussion approaching 80 pages and going strong, I figured I'd post a separate summary of relevant rumors, specifically regarding Grey Knights. Note that this is supposed to be a rough summary. I'm not quoting everything word for word, and I've condensed a lot of the rumors into a quick and easy list of things that may show up in the codex.

First off, because some people still seem to be obsessed with the idea of a combined Inquisition codex;

- Grey Knights and Sisters will be in a seperate codex.

This is from pretty much every single reliable source, and even from people such as Jervis. In fact, not too long ago I recall hearing that JJ said that a "combined inquisition codex is pure fanwank".

There may be a later, separate Inquisition codex or expansion covering all three Ordos. But that is not here, not yet.


As to when it will come out, no one seems to know. However, from recent comments by Harry, it looks like very late 2010, or early 2011. Can't get more precise than that, and no clue how it relates to the DE release.


With that out of the way, here's a summary (not verbatim. These are my words, here.):

Sticky Monkey

-lots of psycannon vehicle upgrades

-GK Jetbikes possible

- Landspeeder variant possible, though Stickymonkey seemed unsure if this made it to the final design stages

-GK Chaplain


Harry

-Artificer Armor instead of Power Armor is possible

Harry has mostly talked about when they're coming up, as has DPA.


Uther on GK forums

-Drop Pods (probably for Dreadnoughts) are in, with some sort of special variant

-Stern is dead in the fluff

-NFWs can Insta-kill Daemons

-GKs have some sort of Apothecary, but may be a special Character

Lastly, I'll link to MadCowCrazy's roundup, which is very detailed and has pretty much all the specific rumors and comments as they've come out posted: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=55212

I'll try to add any big things that I see as they come out. If anyone sees anything that I missed, post it.


----------



## HOBO

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh do tell me where you heard this, Im hungry for news
> 
> After talking to GW today I was pretty much quaranteed a combined codex, but he did not know for sure if it would be =][=, GK and SoB in one codex. From what Ive been hearing there will be 3 codexes, sisters this summer, gk at autumn/winter and Inquisition sometime next year. It does make sense when looking at the rumours running around but then again rumours feed upon rumours and spawn twisted hatebabies that spurts fourth lies and filth wherever they go. In other words, treat everything you hear as a rumour until you get a definitive date from GW.


nail...hit on head.
It is good to know that there's something new on the way, regardless of what format it takes.

Thanks for making this Thread MCC:good:


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh do tell me where you heard this, Im hungry for news


lol, I gathered that much,

I believe the grey knights are first up, I know v little about SOB but I believe some trustworthy people on warseer (can't say who, as I barely go there) were saying there would be a SOB codex not long after grey knights,
however this being GW plans may have changed, 
or the information could be skewed and it maybe the other way around.

as regards to a codex just for inquisitors, I have no knowledge either way, but it sounds quite plausible.



HOBO said:


> Thanks for making this Thread MCC:good:


indeed, the mind boggles at how much waffle you would have had to wade through to get these bits


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> on warseer...
> 
> indeed, the mind boggles at how much waffle you would have had to wade through to get these bits


If it was on warseer its in this thread.
I believe this is the line you are reffering to :
* GK being focused on for release, Sisters 2nd wave
and it was Stickmonkey who reported it. He allso says :


Stickmonkey said:


> My involvement is as an outsider. I am not, nor have I ever been a GW employee. Without getting into details of what it is I do...I can say that I know for a fact I have been purposely misled in the past, just because of these kind of posts.


When trying to puzzle all the info together I have come to the following conclusion : He got to join the GW guys for a day to see what they are up to, the fact that GW even allowed him to have a look implies a bit of hype building on their part. Maby so they could read peoples responses and see how sought after a new release is. He does mention that the sisters do seem to be well behind GK for instance. How can he be so sure? Did they show him everything they have done with the sisters up to that point? The sister minis he mentions sound like last minute touch ups to me, from what I can tell the only character that did not seem like a special character was the Sister Repentia Mistress. I seriously doubt the first thing GW does when they start work on a new codex is make a whole bunch of special characters, a new throne of judgement does not seem high priority to me.

They could allso have shown him allot more than he can mention, maby they told him to say sisters are far from complete so they can surprise us?
From the info I have we might see GK this winter and Codex Inquisition is not in the schedule for 2010, so if this is the case why pull the WH codex? Why not just the DH one (atleast not until the new DH one was released)? why so soon? a year before we might see a release? why remove the 10Bs box, the 5Seraphim and the 10repentia box now?
Was told today a new codex is comming in the 2nd half of 2010, he said it was a new Inquisition codex but did not know what might be in it. GWs crackdown on leaks has left their personel guessing just as much as we do.
All this leads me to believe they are much further along with sisters than they showed Stickmonkey when he got to visit them, probobly allready done with all new recasts, Battle Sisters, Seraphim and Repentia atleast. Final touchups on the Repentia mistress before sent to the production lines and creating the new special characters that are in the codex. This is what I believe went down, this is to me what had to have gone down, THIS IS!!! just a conclusion based on rumours... 

PS. It wasnt that much to read, the thread on warseer was just 42 pages long, other forum threads Ive read have been about 5-15 pages long. It took me the whole day but I think it was worth it, give me something to do while I wait. I search around forums a little bit every day hoping to find something, as soon as I do I post it in this thread. I wont bump it though, if people want to bookmark it thats fine but I wont bump it just to keep it on the front page.

Hope you enjoy my compilation, its the least I can do


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

If you post when theres a new update, it will let people know that there is one. No point in leaving this thread sink while your still updating it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem is so far Ive updated it like 5 times a day with new info Ive found, Im sure there will be days with no news and others with allot. I was basically thinking about updating the title every time I make an update so people can see the last day the thread got updated. It does not seem to work though, it seems like the main title isnt updated, just the minor one. On my other compilation threads it did work but it took a while, this one hasnt updated since I first made it though. Maby Im doing something wrong.
I allso dont want to clog this post with too many of my own posts, Im thinking maby recreate the thread every time it hits page 50 or some such because it will be too many pages for people to bother reading through. Basically Im thinking about remaking the thread every 4-6 months unless its possible to delete like 48pages out of 50 too keep the latest talk in it. I guess I havent thought everything through just yet, I will see as the thread develops.

I think it would be kinda cool though once/if the codexes come out to look back at this thread and see the dates on when info started spreading and rumours building. Could act as a guideline for other people waiting for their favourite army to get a new codex (DE, Necrons etc).

When did they start pulling models and the codex for IG, SW and Nids? When did the rumours start about a new codex and when did GW acknowlege it?

Lol, if I was a character in the 40k universe I would probobly be one of those conscript guys who have writing tools for hands pumping out scrolls all day long.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> When did they start pulling models and the codex for IG, SW and Nids? When did the rumours start about a new codex and when did GW acknowlege it?


it's all over the place (unsurprisingly for GW), 
some codexes/models get pulled up to a year in advance and some a few months in advance


----------



## TeDasCuen

Well, new models can take a *lot of years*. There is an example: at GW book _"How to paint Space Marines"_, printed at 2004, you can see at last Chapters colour sets, the Death Guard (Ordo Xenos) and the Legion of the Damneds models. Well, these last came passed month (2010 - 2004 = 6 years from GW created the model until they went on sale).


----------



## smfanboy

never new that
are you sure that it was printed in 2004 not just a reprint


----------



## TeDasCuen

smfanboy said:


> never new that
> are you sure that it was printed in 2004 not just a reprint


Yes, the book is from the 2004 and you can look at Lexicanum (see link at bottom) the complete information about it. At the first line you'll find the date: _"...book published in 2004..."_.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/How_To_Paint_Space_Marines


----------



## Bindi Baji

TeDasCuen said:


> and the Legion of the Damneds models. Well, these last came passed month (2010 - 2004 = 6 years from GW created the model until they went on sale).


I remember the ones you are talking about here and these are in fact earlier LOTD models


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Whats up with my thread? First it got sticky and I felt really honored, 1 min later it got moved to rumour roundup and I felt insulted, now its back in the rumours section and I feel confused.

No mention from any mod for any of the moves, so whats up?


----------



## tu_shan82

Sorry about that, at first I stickied it so that way it wouldn't get lost if it went awhile without being posted in, I then moved it to rumor round up for the same reason (threads in the rumor round up tend to hang around a lot longer than threads in the main forum), I did both of these so you wouldn't have to keep bumping your thread to make sure it stays on the front page where people can see it, as you've put a lot of effort into it. I meant no insult by moving it to rumor round up. I shifted it back from rumor round up because I realized it probably won't get the coverage it deserves over there, and also because I'm not entirely sure if everyone can post in threads over there, or just the original poster, which is no good because people need to be able to ask questions. I had intended to resticky the thyread when I moved it back,but got distracted by the telephone and forgot to do it once the phone call had ended. You've put a lot of effort into this thread and I'm about to give you some rep for it when I'm finished posting here. Sorry about all this, I didn't mean to treat you like a yoyo, can you forgive me as I have only been doing the moderator thing less than a week and it's all quite new to me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Your HERESY against the Emperor hasnt gone unnoticed, you can expect the Spanish Inquisition to show up at your door within a week.

Its no problem, if it deserves to be stickied I dont know since Im going to gather all the info I can find about the =][=, GK and SoB into this thread and not really bother with the other races/armies.
If anyone has any good rumours or links I might be interested in please send them to me so I can take a look.
As always, remember its all rumours, nothing has been confirmed by GW so far.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> you can expect the Spanish Inquisition to show up at your door within a week.


Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

On a more serious note after putting out some feelers it appears that there is a SOB Codex being prepped, it sounds like the codex is at the fluff writing stage.

Although as I understand it is some way behind the GK codex, 
which itself sounds likely to be this year


----------



## Arcane

@Bindi

According to Madcow up there, he got an email from GW saying an Inquisition codex is coming out, which would lead to believing separate GK and SoB codex's are not in the works... unless of course they intend to release all three and further make bollocks the whole thing.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Arcane said:


> @Bindi
> 
> According to Madcow up there, he got an email from GW saying an Inquisition codex is coming out, which would lead to believing separate GK and SoB codex's are not in the works.


whilst being surprisingly less vague then usual the email was still very vague and certainly has not ruled out seperate codexes, 
the separate codexes bit is not a guess on my part


----------



## Arcane

It just seems very unlikely considering the email and, if you read pg 25 of the WH codex it refers to Demonhunters as members of the "Inquisition" in game rules. Demonhunters codex also makes similar reference to the WH force.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Arcane said:


> It just seems very unlikely considering the email


I have looked at the reply and I have to say it's very non committal. 

I'm sure everyone will believe what they want despite my comments, time will of course tell.

But the GK and the SOB will be getting separate codexes. 
And as for the inquisition itself,
it will be very different to current organisations and closer to early incarnations..............................

Anyway, I have said more then I originally intended to


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Earlier incarnations being the assassins codex which was availiable as an ally to any imperial army?

or earlier as in the forces of the imperium which included a basic PAGK squad to be allied into any imperial army?

either way, this is more or less what I have been predicting from the start of the recent round of rumors.

1 GK codex (possibly a named inquisitor or two for fun in either of these.)
1 SOB/Eccleisiarchy

and 1 Inquisition codex, including the inquisitorial units and basic GK and SOB squads...as allies... or as a self contained list, meaning that inducted guard and space marines will be in the codex, though the latter seems less likely after what Blind Baji has hinted.

**PIC on the GW site whats new today tour of studio, second picture left column "Deathwatch" with a sword in the name**

someone's own personal doodle?, or something being worked on? Pic said licensing department...but now the deathwatch portion of the pic is blacked out...its over on warseer though.
here

Ahh looking deeper we hear its the next 40k RPG from Fantasy Flight Games...still it is inquisition.


----------



## Arcane

Claims that there will be a separate GK, SoB, and =I= codex are about as founded as there being a single consolidated =I= codex. 

So Bindi, I really don't know where you can come off saying you know for certain that there "will" be. You may think you know, and you may have heard rumors and you may wish it that way, but you don't know, period

However, every major 40k review site I have heard from says they believe there will be a combined codex and every retailer I have spoken to says there will be a combined codex and then this guy gets an email saying there will be a combined codex.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Arcane said:


> You may think you know, and you may have heard rumors and you may wish it that way, but you don't know, period


that's a heck of an assumption, fair enough you don't believe me but to go on and state that "but you don't know, period" implies you are in fact omnipotent :shok:


----------



## Purge the Heretic

The conversation, which Darklove mentioned in another thread on this forum, which was at UK Games day was known to me previously, as late as UK games day, Jervis himself supposedly said it would be 2 seperate codecii (old wording was unclear.), based on chambers militant.

A seperate GK and SOB codex (not DH/WH) was being bandied about by a certain Warseer contributor before his passing in late 2009, as well as some of the other rumor mongers, with some of them being very adamant about GK in 2010.


----------



## Arcane

Bindi Baji said:


> that's a heck of an assumption, fair enough you don't believe me but to go on and state that "but you don't know, period" implies you are in fact omnipotent :shok:


Fair enough you don't believe _me_, but your statement "But the GK and the SOB will be getting separate codexes. And as for the inquisition itself, it will be very different to current organisations and closer to early incarnations" Also implies that you are in fact omnipotent or have some inside connection to GW that you indeed do not have.


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## Purge the Heretic

I know I'm not a mod or anything but can you two keep it to rumors please?


----------



## boreas

The fact the now both codices and both squad boxes are not available put fuel on the "combined" camp's fire. I know the JJ said something about separate codices, but that was a quick remark a long time ago (as codices go). If GW's accountants got on the case and asked for a combined =I= in order to increase immediate profits, all the developpers' designs could go out of the window...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> The fact the now both codices and both squad boxes are not available put fuel on the "combined" camp's fire.


Hmm, have I missed something?
The way you say it makes it sound like a GK squad box has been removed.
To my knowlege only SoB squad boxes have been removed (10 battlesister, 5 seraphim and 10 repentia) and PAGK Justicar and Psycannon blisters are 10% off in Australia.

When you say "both squad boxes are not available" what boxes are you refering to?


----------



## boreas

On the GW UK site:

*Daemonhunters Grey Knights undefined
Availability: No Longer Available Part Code: 99110107002*

They are not listed in the Troops section anymore and are listed as per above in the Fast section...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh, thx for letting me know. Adding it to the news section.


----------



## Arcane

I was just thinking today...

The main reason a Codex isn't included in a major release like Battle Missions or the 5th BRB is because they are just a variant and thus only get a mention. This kind of logic would support the multiple dex theories. 

So obviously, Grey-knights are a Space Marine variant, and would be modeled after the boys in blue. 

Inquisition, wth would they get as troop choice? Maybe they would be a IG variant, with Inquisitors having custom battle orders like "Purge the heretic!"

Wtf would SoB be a varient of? The only thing they are close to is Space Marines, but it would surprise the hell out of me if they made them all s3 t3 Space Marines with a few specialist tanks and faith battle orders. 

Thoughts?


----------



## boreas

No, it's definitely not a case of "variants". Altough GKs could be variants of SMs, Sisters are entirely too different. 

I think it might be one of three things:

-They just didn't give a damn, no matter if they re-do the codices or not.
or
-They're going to squat the armies, so might as well not invest.
or
-They're planning the codices in a form that's different from now and they don't want to give away what it will be. Let's say there was an "codex: Ecclesiarchy" section, that would have been quite a hint!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Called GW today to ask about the PAGK box getting taken off the site, got to speak to a person Ive been in contact with quite a fiew times earlier.

Q. What is up with the PAGK getting taken off the site?
A. The current range of models is being discontinued atm.
Q. Discontinued? Does that mean they are abandoning the armies or that new codicies are on the way?
A. I highly doubt they would discontinue the range and to the other answer I really cant answer.
Q. Because you dont know or because youre not allowed to tell?
A. Because Im not allowed to tell 
Q. Why were there no missions for either SoB or GK in the missions book?
A. Corporate Answer : Because at the end of the day its an awsome addition to the tabletop game and you can use the SM ones and IG ones for them with inducted units.
Personal Answer : I dont know, maby it would give away too much of what might be comming 
Q. Do you think they are redoing the range?
A. They very well might be, if you look at the advances in plastics they have come a long way compared to what they used to be like. Take a look at the new Venerable dread for instance, its very much what a GK dred would look like and it wouldnt take much conversion work to turn one into a GK dred.
It has taken GW a very long time to redo the ranges but what they have come out with has been really good. Allot of people have been waiting for a remake of the GK for a very long time and GW might very well be redoing the ranges. If you just wait a bit longer Im sure you will really happy within the year or next.

Basically what you can expect from the phone operators at GW. They cant tell you everything they know but can give subtle hints, if its to cause anticipation or just being mean who knows. "At the end of the day we are all hobbyists "


----------



## boreas

Well, it seems, I was close with option 3. Time to pray for news when the BA wave is over!

Phil


----------



## Arcane

BAH I WANT ANSWERS!!! :alcoholic:

Well Boreas, you are probably right. Still, I think the current approach is just really the wrong way to go about it. Inquisition is still based on rules which came out in 1998, when people thought that the world was going to end because the computers had the wrong date. 

I'd say, they need to update them now or just go the way of the squat.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Purge the Heretic said:


> Earlier incarnations being the assassins codex which was availiable as an ally to any imperial army?


along those lines, although from what I gather it sounds somewhere between an expansion and a codex, including inquisition based battle missions.


----------



## verythrax

I bet on a supplement instead of a codex, or in addition to the codices:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=188500&view=findpost&p=2298812 :grin:


----------



## Arcane

Basically what you described is what I would call a... codex. (not a supplement)

The =I= units are already available to any army that wants to take them. You have a Space Marine army and want an Inquisitor, you can do it. You have a Imperial Guard list and want to add in a squad of SoB, you can do it, all legit.

So I don't see the difference from what you posted there and what we currently have, just that the current DH WH books are separate and have more red tape.


----------



## Alexious

I have watched this thread with some interest and went to do some detective work of my own....

1). The IG codex Storm Troopers are most likely to be modeled after whatever Inq forces are whether they be past or future... I can find NOT one picture of a IG Storm Trooper in the codex period apart from basic artwork which looks very much like current edition stuff metal.

Does this imply that the stormies are a) getting a make over or b) getting moved more likely to classic... if they are being done in plastic... which is possible it would make INQ forces a lot more likely to be collected IMO. I would have loved to do a GK force, but the lack of plastics stopped me dead.... But any marketing campaign could easily do the Inq with a nice plastic range of stormies and bam! all of a sudden you have added the basic troop choice in plastic that every other army has. The other minatures themselves dont need a revamp really... they are fine looking IMO. But if they did this, it may invigorate the Inq as playable army without GW having to spend a heap of funds. Produce a codex and put the troop type in plastic, cover the vehicles with SM and IG and basically your almost done for GK/DH... 

2). WH and SOB.... Those appear to me to be the ones in danger of death... GK and Inq in general are and have been part of the game since RT days, not to say that saves them. But why would any SM player or IG player (The very popular armies... want to add SOB? to their forces?) I would not... but would I add a unit of GK... yes and thats how they have always been till 98 codex been deployed. Perhaps it will be a return to that... type of thinking from GW with Inq specialists being added as part of a codex line up like the old assassin book.

Unfortuantely we don't know the figures for sales of WH and SOB, but if its bad and its metal.... why update it? Put a few new abilities or stat lines on GK however and do some cool Inq storm plastic and all of a sudden I see every smurf player and IG commander scrambling to get a allied unit of super killers in armor or with mad abilities.
If I was in marketing and product development that would be the route I would go, more bang for a cheaper buck.

Alexi.


----------



## Col. Schafer

Alexious said:


> I have watched this thread with some interest and went to do some detective work of my own....
> 
> 1). The IG codex Storm Troopers are most likely to be modeled after whatever Inq forces are whether they be past or future... I can find NOT one picture of a IG Storm Trooper in the codex period apart from basic artwork which looks very much like current edition stuff metal.
> 
> Does this imply that the stormies are a) getting a make over or b) getting moved more likely to classic... if they are being done in plastic... which is possible it would make INQ forces a lot more likely to be collected IMO. I would have loved to do a GK force, but the lack of plastics stopped me dead.... But any marketing campaign could easily do the Inq with a nice plastic range of stormies and bam! all of a sudden you have added the basic troop choice in plastic that every other army has. The other minatures themselves dont need a revamp really... they are fine looking IMO. But if they did this, it may invigorate the Inq as playable army without GW having to spend a heap of funds. Produce a codex and put the troop type in plastic, cover the vehicles with SM and IG and basically your almost done for GK/DH...
> 
> *I was thinking about this recently, and I began to think that maby this was evidence against the inquisition haveing stormtroopers at all anymore.
> 
> My logic there, was that A(I took the lack of focus as a sign of lack of attention, perhaps they were trying to phase out stormtroopers compleatly and B) stormtroopers had untill this codex been entirely identical (other than minor upgrade points costs and wargear option because of the armory system) and it seemed that a troops choice with AP3 weapons was not likely.
> 
> Then I looked down at my CSM codex.
> 
> I think most likely, that your theory is 100% correct. for the folowing reason (apart from the lack of mention indicateing an upcomeing redo) raise your hand if you use stormtroopers in an inquisition army - - - - - - - thaught so! giving stormtroopers AP 3 weapons would actualy make them ATTRACTIVE compared to power armored badasses and mobs of flame-spitting nuns. They are probably going to be re-done and included in the upcomeing encarnation of the inquisition (whatever it is) almost exactly as they apear in C:IG *
> 
> 2). WH and SOB.... Those appear to me to be the ones in danger of death... GK and Inq in general are and have been part of the game since RT days, not to say that saves them. But why would any SM player or IG player (The very popular armies... want to add SOB? to their forces?) I would not... but would I add a unit of GK... yes and thats how they have always been till 98 codex been deployed. Perhaps it will be a return to that... type of thinking from GW with Inq specialists being added as part of a codex line up like the old assassin book.
> 
> *Um... what? SOBs kick hard ass. Lets compare them to IG veterans shall we? 4 point s more per model you get: bolter, power armor, faith, higher squad cap, and an armory full of ass woop. Also, you have serephims witch combined with orders and a well timed mandate can dish out more hurt than an angry lovecraftian horror. Personaly, I dont find the small assasin style codex likely, since 5th edition came out we havent had a codex smaller than 100 pages I dont think. If inquisition comes it comes in force. *
> 
> Unfortuantely we don't know the figures for sales of WH and SOB, but if its bad and its metal.... why update it? Put a few new abilities or stat lines on GK however and do some cool Inq storm plastic and all of a sudden I see every smurf player and IG commander scrambling to get a allied unit of super killers in armor or with mad abilities.
> If I was in marketing and product development that would be the route I would go, more bang for a cheaper buck.
> 
> Alexi.


Just my 2Cents


----------



## Alexious

Shaef,

your looking from a game perspective not a corporate one.... SOB are metal figures. They cost more to produce and even a revamped codex will limit their playability due to sheer cost factor alone.

GW has made a consistent effort to go toward plastic.... and I have seen zero rumors about SOB plastic period.

What plays well or is awesome game wise, means nothing at the board level. Its about what can sell, what can be marketed and what will arrive toward a profit. Nothing more. They don't do this for a public service or for our benefit... they do it to make money.... and get as many 13 to 16 year olds into the hobby. Lets face it, how many sisters army do you see being played by 14 year olds? There is a reason why the marines and guard sell so well and Chaos... its tough blokes type stuff, and for the 14 year old male who is struggling with his own identity and trying to fit into the world, painting 28mm girls is not exactly what they will probably go for when introduced to the hobby. 

IG stormtroopers if they were picked up and put as troop choices as they stand now in the Demon hunters codex would require fairly minimum rework period... Grey Knights were terminator figures for years with people happy enough to run a squad or two... they dont need to change those models at all, if they did them in plastic.. well it opens the doors for SM players to further customize... great more sales...

SOB are that alone.... left alone, sitting out there without cross over to a great extent. Even today Warhammer Empire troop parts can be interchanged easily with cadian stuff, same with cadian and catachan stuff etc... it won't be long before we end up with the same across the board. I just don't see GW redoing sisters in plastic just for the sake of it, when they have greater profit for less work ideas in front of them by just by adding a new stat line to metal Gk and revamping some Inq figures and putting plastic stormies down.

With SOB your doing a lot more work for a lot less output at the corporate level, and that at the end of the day means more money for the company.

I may be wrong, they may redo the codex for both, and put plastic stormies out... I hope they do... I tend to think though that the Demon Hunters codex was a rushed job first time around same with WH. But I can't see a heap of new sisters figures being done in plastic, even as we kind of know that dark eldar are being redone or supposedly... and their are mock ups about...the rumor mill is rife about that too, but with BA done.... and announced for April, and with Battle Missions done for March... I think we will have to wait a bit for more WFB stuff to be done for a few months before we even get a look at what may come...

Of course by then.... anything is possible and I would hesitate to think GW would give us SW, then nids, then BA without the next being an Imperial enemy rather than a pro imperial force. But who knows... After all we are all only guessing.


----------



## Concrete Hero

I was told the other day that within the next 14 months there WILL be a new Grey Knights kit out, whether its plastic or metal, I don't know.

Obviously this is just my word, or his rather. But I do know he is good friends with a few of the guys of the development team and I can't see why he would lie.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I thought there was an email reply comfirming SOB?


----------



## Arcane

Alexious said:


> Unfortuantely we don't know the figures for sales of WH and SOB, but if its bad and its metal.... why update it?


Why?

The only reason GW stays in business is because they milk Spaac mharines. Other than that, their marketing is somewhat atrocious. 

If it's bad, redo the rules and suddenly it's not bad
If it's metal, make it plastic. 

Your worries are ended. 

The =I= has a HUGE fan base which you can see on the internet anywhere. They are not very popular in game because GW has neglected them and all but decided they are too lazy to update the rules. People would play them if they were just updated, but 10 years will put an army in the dust. 

Look at the armies that people play most. Generally, you will see that the ones that are played least are the ones that are least updated. It's not that no one playing makes them less updated, it's the other way around. Since they don't update them, people get sick of it and want something new and competitive.



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I thought there was an email reply comfirming SOB?


There was an email confirming Inquisition. This doesn't invalidate a possible separate SoB and GK codex since the =I= has enough of it's own units to possibly make a codex on it's own. Ie Assassins, Inquisitors, Storm troopers, Orbital bombardments...


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Thought I'd update this a little:

March 2010
Warhammer 40k Battle mission and side releases.

April 2010
Blood Angels with a few more Battle missions Releases. (Space marine statue aquila and church window terrain set)

May 2010
LOTR and ORCS AND GOBLINS(models at least, maybe an army list update)

June 2010
***40k Tanks** 

((SKAVEN HELLPIT ABOMINATION?? source of the rumor had to be edited out of the post by the mods on warseer(which points to someone involved with GW), poster was Iverald.))

July 2010
***OPEN SLOT FOR CODEX OR WAVE RELEASE**

August 2010
8th Edition Fantasy with Skaven/ High Elves boxed set.

September 2010
***OPEN SLOT FOR CODEX OR WAVE RELEASE**

end of month:
Gamesday UK announcement for DE (Harry)

October 2010
**Dark Eldar Codex** (Blind Baji ...coincides with some speculation elsewhere.)

November 2010
***OPEN SLOT FOR WAVE RELEASE 40k codex doubtful due to DE release**

December 2010 / early 2011
**Codex or wave release?**



ONE of these open slots will most likely be used for ogre kingdoms or tomb kings.

Harry at one point did say that if DE or necrons came out this year they would be the 4th or 5th codex. So we can hope for June July or Sept...I hope, but admit to a lack of confidence atm, as after initial hints from BrassScorpion and other influential posters, the grey knights and other dear to our hearts rumor threads seem to be missing some of the more influential posters comments confirming or denying.

After searching various threads of the interweb, I think GK will hit sometime this year, SOB will have to wait til next year,for a codex at least?, and there are indications of an allies supplement that will include things like the inquisition that is "close to the mark" (harry again.)

One final point, a release sooner than December, but after/at games day, for Dark eldar may be in the works leaving a christmas/January slot open.

as we see here in my latest revision.


----------



## Mud213

I noticed this today. When I clicked on the Witch Hunters tab in the GW site, it took a while to load and I looked down at the bottom of my window and it said something about "Google.analytics" and this is the discription:

"Google Analytics is the enterprise-class web analytics solution that gives you rich insights into your website traffic and marketing effectiveness. Powerful, flexible and easy-to-use features now let you see and analyze your traffic data in an entirely new way. With Google Analytics, you're more prepared to write better-targeted ads, strengthen your marketing initiatives and create higher converting websites."

Obviously there is a lot of rumors going around about what's being released when, but it's interesting to see that GW is doing some marketing analysis to see who is most interested in the new Witch-hunters rumors.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

From Chuck...something...Bolter and chainsword:



> I had emailed GW asking if the army was going to be discontinued, because I was wanting to build an army for my wife and did not want to purchase models if they were going away. There reply was:
> 
> "Hello,
> The models (and the army in general) are not being discontinued, we just discontinued the Codex."
> 
> This to me is saying that there will be a new codex. Does not say individual WH codex or a combined codex, but we know for a fact that they are not going away. Take it for what it is.


1stpip of warseer says:



> Well, a friend apparently saw the sisters plastic sprue the other weekend on a 'personal' tour of the studio, although I believe they have been ready for a while.


----------



## Salahaldin

This is PURE speculation on MUD213's post, if you're not interested skip ahead.

If they're using this function to check how popular WH is, then the only reason they would check is if they're still on the fence about whether to update WH or not. Judging from the rumours posted on this thread, particularly the ones concerning minor models of the WH being changed or created,(Battle Sister with cat o'nine tails or however you say it, the new Throne of Judgment) it seems to imply the exact opposite of what was inferred: far from having got everything important done and now concentrating on extras, GW is just giving SOB a token update, and if SOB seems popular enough, they'll continue and give it a proper revamp.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Souleater's signature from Warseer:



> I refuse to have a more interesting signature until GW release one of the following armies: Dark Eldar, Necron, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle!
> 
> Because they are four out of the five armies I play
> Last edited by Souleater; 11-03-2010 at 15:12.


What Harry said about it:



> I have just noticed you sig.
> Are you planning on collecting more for all four of those?
> You have a lot to look forward to.


and yes I do basically stalk the pie god on warseer for any hints of sisters news...lol


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Purge the Heretic said:


> and yes I do basically stalk the pie god on warseer for any hints of sisters news...lol


I wouldn't be surprised if Harry got more hits then some online shops,
I myself attempted to melt 'seers servers when tyranids rumours were floating about


----------



## Arcane

I sent a email to Wayland games, asking why they stopped carrying the Immolator tank. I got this as a reply. 



> Hello
> 
> Unfortunatley no they are no longer availabel to us at trade sales, due to GW due to release them again at a later date, as of yet we do not know when im afraid.
> 
> Very sorry for the inconvenienece caused here.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Craig


His engrish isn't the best here but it seems to imply that they can no longer get them because GW is going to re-release them soon? This would lead me to believe Immolators are getting a possible remodel, tbh I don't think they need one but w/e and it must be soon enough that they are pulling these as well. 

Keep your eyes open to see if these get pulled from order.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I checked on GW and it says : # Availability: This product is expected to despatch in one to two weeks. 

This was what it said about battle sisters, seraphim and repentia as well just before they took them off if I remember correctly.
Does this mean they are not replacing the molds anymore because there is an update coming to the model or are they just waiting for new boxes to be created.

Im adding your post to the rumours section btw.


----------



## Arcane

cool beans. 

Have you been looking at the foot tabs (on the physical model it's self) of SoB you bought recently? Usually they say like 2003-2006 on them or whatever, mostly being older models. However, the boxes I have recently opened have been saying 09 and are labeled differently than the old. 

This, along with the change of the ordering process may mean they have been getting rid of their old stores of models and have been selling off the sister models they have been making this year. The fact that they have even made models for SoB this year is surprising alone. 

I come to this assumption. GW has finally sold off the remaining inventory of their older models for SoB (at least some of the range) and has of this year made more. Now they are stopping running these molds and this is why we are seeing these units (SoB squad, Immolator) discontinued from order.



On a side note. If Sister Repentia are remodeled and are actually made viable for playing I will be trying to buy up the old models since I think they are great.


----------



## Sloan13

You they could always just be repackaging them, to give you all hope. If I was them I was about to kill to armies that is what I would do. Then I again I have been called an asshole more than once.


----------



## Arcane

No, I mean the metal tab on the bottom of the model that is actually attached. You insert it into the plastic base.


----------



## Sloan13

That makes more sense, I was thinking of the copyright on the box. Opps


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Changed my Calendar a bit, its on page 6.

Certain things are really getting my hopes up...Arcane's latest find for example, however Harry and some other posters from various corners of the net that I trust have been remarkably quiet on the GK front, the same people who late last year were saying to expect a summer GK release in 2010.

I'm still trying to figure out if this is a good sign, or a bad one.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Purge the Heretic said:


> I'm still trying to figure out if this is a good sign, or a bad one.


I haven't read much from harry GK wise, but going from what people say harry's rumours come from around the beginning of a codex being worked upon, and for that reason and others summer 2010 sounds close to the truth


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From all the rumours Ive gathered Im thinking a late summer-autumn release for GK, somewhere around august-september.
We know there will be some fantasy and wotr in may, so the 2 release rumour in may was true. Ive read allot about ppl thinking fantasy 8ed in june and more fantasy in july.
I think we can expect atleast 3 months from the BA release before we see any more 40k stuff but who knows. Ive been reading ppl claiming GW will be releasing more stuff this year than usually.


----------



## cwcuran45

Hey guys just another avid =I= player here w/ too much time on his hands to surf the net. Every once in awhile I search for any references to new GK and Inq rumors. It's amazing how often I come across this one person named MadCowCrazy on various forums  

Anyways Stickmonkey over at Warseer posted something about a month ago that I haven't really seen anyone key on so I thought I'd bring it up.


Here's what he had to say:

"I have not been privy to much for the past month, but recently there has been a bit more discussion on this.

This is all high level discussion, so subject to a lot of change, but worth posting:

Codex: DH, Codex:WH, etc. are not likely to ever see updates, at least not in the same vein. Instead, rumors of GK and SB getting individual codi are stronger, with Inquisition forces perhaps being completely re-worked...The way this is discussion is going is for a new "rules" supplement, aka planetstrike, apoc, battle missions, etc. That allows for Inquisition/speciallized type allies for all armies, not just imperium. Allowing for a range of new figures for all armies, as well as special rules and missions involving their use. 

Certainly not rock solid info, but something.

Also, we are getting to work on some stuff for fall. I think there are some players who will finally be allowed in from the cold this fall.  "

In the very next post Harry goes on to say that he has finally hit somewhere close to the mark.

Pure Speculation from here down so please read w/ a whole salt block:

Ever since I read that I have wondered how GW could get away with such a huge release all at once, but now with the announcement of Spear Head I could see the Codi being released normally and the Allies portion being released via WD and supported online.

It seems to me that Christmas would be a great time to release not only a new codex, but an allies system that could possibly generate new models for multiple (possibly all) armies.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Adding this to the rumours section.

Lol, Im not surprised you see my name around the web in regard to =][=, GK or SoB threads. I scour the web every day searching for news, rumours or anything I can come across. 
Its been a really dry time these last 2 weeks, not much has happened at all on the rumours front.

What Stickmonkey wrote is pretty much what I have been hearing as well. I read through my thread once a week to try and get a new perspective on the rumours in it, to see things I may have missed before.
Basically I get the impression there will be a GK codex this year (late summer-autumn) and a SoB codex next year, there will also be an Inquisitorial codex of some sort next year. Most seem to think its akin to a Planetstrike or Apoc type deal, other say it will be a standalone codex with/out the ally rule.

It seems June will be another month with remade units in one form or another, lets just hope its not as worthless as the new Basilisk kit.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Stickmonkey is posting again, putting in some disclaimers.

something along the lines of...
the three ups and work that he saw for GK/SOB was not as far along as he seemed to be saying at first...

It seemed a pretty detailed list to me...

Harry was saying people in the thread were getting excited over nothing, hopefully I wasn't one of those, and something is in the works, but we shall see.

On the positive side of the coin:

BrassScorpion- Dakka


> That will no longer be the case when they get their new Codex in the near future. Like it or not, in the interest of pleasing fans who like to play Inquisition as an army and in the interest of company profits, the Inquisition will be more of an army than ever one day soon.


and this:


> Inquisition is next, combined Daemon and Witch Hunters.


notice he doesnt say grey knights or sisters...but thats me just wishlisting.


----------



## cwcuran45

I remember coming across those posts by brass scorpion yesterday... is he considered a reliable source? (not questioning you just wodering if he is one of the posters I should be paying attention too :biggrin: )

Stickmonkey also posted this:

"Dont look for new GK/SB models or vehicles yet. Even the stuff I've seen is a long way out based on current state. There is so much conflicting info on potential refresh for these armies it's almost a death wish to post anything anymore. One gets chewed up pretty quickly with the fervor people have for these..."

This makes me a little sad, but I'm curious what he means by "a long way out" It's pretty much established that there won't be any new 40k releases until the later part of this year due to WFB and WOTR releases (spear head strikes me as a filler release for die hard 40k fans). And it also may be that he is referring to GK/SOB spear head releases.

Does anyone know roughly how long it takes to go from 3UP to finished model?

I also think it's kinda funny that he seems reluctant to talk about anything WH/DH due to the fervor of the fans, but I can see it. Afterall IIRC we are the only fans to organize a specific day of the year to flood GW with letters demanding a new codex :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

17/03/2010
Wrote an "angry" email to GW about wanting my money back because WH and DH are being discontinued,
this of course was just a way to try and milk them for information and it worked 


Games Workshop said:


> Hi there
> 
> Daemonhunters and Witchhunters are not being discontinued. The codexes and a number of products have been removed from the range as we are looking to do a new Inquisitorial codex at some point in the near future.
> 
> I would recommend keeping an eye on the website and in White Dwarf for developments on this product.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Cheers


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

well, thats good news i guess, i wonder how many dwarfs itll take before we know for certain though... not sure about the inquisition dex though, is it one or many dexs? im in two minds on this, as having one makes it easy to make a joint ops force, but could also water down the current armies in terms of options.


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> 19/03/2010
> Wrote an "angry" email to GW about wanting my money back because WH and DH are being discontinued,
> this of course was just a way to try and milk them for information and it worked



Holy Cow (excuse the pun!)... That made me cry with joy. When' the next WD due?

Phil


----------



## Bindi Baji

Just a snippet here, a certain stormraven will be available for the grey knights in the GK codex, as I understand GK will be the only other codex featuring it (I highly expect this to change by the time the next codex: space marines is released)

Also a model release is planned for the initial wave


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji, how do you know this for sure? Because the BA codex mentioned GK having the largest number of them in the past? Anyways, do you have a new avatar? I recognise your name but the avatar makes me go "Who the hell is this?".

Oh yeah, sorry about travelling through the warp into the future (19th of march) about my letter to GW. It was actually today I received the answer and not this coming friday 
Thx for pointing this out to me.

Ive got a bit of a treat coming as well, just need to make sure I have permission to post it. Its not much and some of it might make you sad but its info none the less. Will see if I can have it up later today or tomorrow.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Managed to get a short interview type thing with Stickmonkey over at Warseer.
I asked what I felt were important questions to get answers to and got some interesting answers.
Should be taken as rumours (even though 100% of what he has claimed has come true so far).
Credit goes to *Warseer* and *Stickmonkey* for taking the time to answer these questions.


Hey Stickmonkey,
Im wondering if you have anything more to add about GK and SoB rumours. I search the web for info pretty much every day and compile them in my thread over at Heresy and wouldnt mind some input from your side.

I just have a small list of questions Im hoping you would care to take a look at. Just simple yes and no questions.

*Ordo Malleus *:

1. Is it fair to say Codex Daemonhunter is dead as we know it and we can look forwards to Codex Grey Knights?


Stickmonkey said:


> CH is unlikely to see reprint.


2. On Feb 25th the Power Armour Grey Knight (5) box set was removed from GWs webstore in europe.
Of the 3ups you have seen or heard of is it fair to presume they will be remaking them into plastic?


Stickmonkey said:


> GKs in PA and GK in TA have been seen as 3 ups. As well as new special characters. I put forward that special characters are normally metal, so the presence of 3ups does not necessarily indicate plastics are on the way. That said, it would be strange for new troop level models to be released as metal minis...


3. Could the same be said about GK Terminators and maybe an actual model for the GK dread?


Stickmonkey said:


> See above. I do not expect a GK dread should a new GK codex get released. At least not initially.


4. Would there be any "taint" of the Inquisition in a GK codex? or would it be 100% focus on the GK themselves?


Stickmonkey said:


> Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.


5. If there is to be a GK codex I would assume they would add a few more vehicles to them. The BA codex mentions GK once having the largest fleet of Stormraven transports/gunships in the past.
Could one assume they would have access to this vehicle?


Stickmonkey said:


> It "would" make sense for more than BAs to access a crazy fast assault transport...


6. You mention "fall", as in the time of year, a few times in regards to your posts about GK. Could one assume by that you mean sometime in between August-September?


Stickmonkey said:


> the way production schedules are, Fall is the earliest we would see new GK...however, the GW marketing model focuses on nearer term plans, so anything futher out than 6 months is not set in stone. Given recent shifts, I personally think GK have been pushed to early 2011, but GW is a fickle mistress...


*Ordo Hereticus :*

1. Is it fair to say Codex Witchhunters is dead as we know it and we can look forwards to Codex Sisters of Battle once more?


Stickmonkey said:


> C:WH is unlikely to see reprint.


2. On Jan 8th the Battle Sister (10) box set and on Jan 30th the Seraphim (5), Sister Repentia (10) box sets were removed from GWs web store in Europe.
Of the 3ups you have seen or heard of is it fair to presume they will be remaking them into plastic?


Stickmonkey said:


> To put it bluntly, the models are undergoing a massive rework. Some will stay metal, some will go plastic, but I do not expect any of this line to return as it was...and some units may disappear entirely to be replaced with new... So far though, I have not seen 3ups of any of these...this is not confirmation or denial they exist, I simply havent seen them. The CAD and artistic drawings though lead me to believe when SB do return, there will be happy people in the world if for nothing else than the painting side of the hobby. Like DE, the designs are beautiful...and dynamic.


3. You mention "sister with twin cat o nine tails" in one of your earliest posts about the designs you got to see, is it safe to think it was a new design for the old Sister Repentia Mistress?


Stickmonkey said:


> If you can take a entire unit of them, then perhaps...


4. You mention a sister with what looks like twin arm mounted SBs. To my knowledge only GK armour usually comes armed with arm mounted storm bolters.
Could it have been a female GK you saw or maybe a SoB in terminator armour?


Stickmonkey said:


> No, this was definately a SB character...ala Marneus...but I will not be surprised to see more arm mounted weaponry after the Sanguine guard...


5. Have you seen anything that could give hints at plastic Penitent Engines (SoB walkers) or a remade Exorcist tank?


Stickmonkey said:


> There are definitely new SB/inquisition walkers in design


6. Would there be any "taint" of the Inquisition in a SoB codex? or would it be 100% focus on the SoB themselves with the Ecclesiarchy having some minor influence?


Stickmonkey said:


> There are priests and inquisitors in design, whether they are part of SB or some other future plan remains to be seen.


7. If there is to be a SoB codex I would assume they would add a few more vehicles to them. One vehicle that is mentioned allot is the Repressor transport tank.
Heard anything about this vehicle being made into a plastic kit?


Stickmonkey said:


> No specific news on SB vehicles, but as I've mentioned, the entire line is getting made over, so dont expect to see the current incarnations again.


8. You mention sisters to come after GK, do you think we could see a release this year?


Stickmonkey said:


> See above, doubtful at this point.


*Conclusions :*
These are just my speculations and should not be take too serious.

Ordo Malleus :
Codex Grey Knights is more likely than a remake of Codex Daemonhunters.
Grey Knights in Power Armour and Terminators are likely to become plastic.
Inquisition may or may not have some part in the codex.
Grey Knights may have access to the Stormraven gunship/transport
A Grey Knight codex might not see the light of day this year 

Ordo Hereticus :
Codex Sisters of Battle is more likely to come back than a remake of Codex Witch Hunters.
Battle Sisters, Seraphim and Sister Repentia will see massive rework done to them, some (only one I could see is repentia) might get replaced with something else.
Something is happening to Sister Repentia and Mistress, what I cant say.
Sisters of Battle in Terminator Armour or a SoB Heroine in Terminator Armour? Maybe, if you look at Marneus Calgar he seems to be in Terminator Armour atleast.
Penitent Engine might see itself remade or replaced with something else.
Priests and Inquisitors are in design, this could mean the Ecclesiarchy will be part of codex Sisters of Battle just like they used to be.
Entire range being remade, dont expect to see the current incarnations again. Does this tie into the Immolator being unavailable at some shops?
SoB only have 3 vehicles of their own; Exorcist, Immolator and Repressor.
Will we see a complete remake of the first two and maybe the Repressor added to the line? It would make sense but only time will tell.
No Sisters of Battle codex this year, this makes sad panda emo 

There you go, some rumours to speculate about. Enjoy


----------



## rasolyo

Tel Asra Nejoar said:


> ...im in two minds on this, as having one makes it easy to make a joint ops force, but could also water down the current armies in terms of options.


Agreed. I hope that if a combined codex does come out, players wanting to field exclusively =I=/DH/WH armies will not be limited to a scant number of builds in order to be competitive.



MadCowCrazy said:


> ...Penitent Engine might see itself remade or replaced with something else...
> Entire range being remade, dont expect to see the current incarnations again.


I really like the current Penitent Engine model, but sadly my army is still lacking in Sisters and Immolators. If GW intends to phase out the current design, then I better start scrounging around for more cash... :search:


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Demon Prince Adramalech of warseer, who had presented an accurate description of the sanguinary guard back in January, has said in regards to Grey Knights,

1. That they will receive the Stormraven.

2. That "there is still too much light in the day" for a summer Grey Knights release. (the shortest day of the year is in december for those of you with weak google-fu and/or a lack of general common knowledge.:biggrin

3. and in answer to:


> Meaning after summer.....wild speculation here....around Gamesday...





> Close...but still too much daylight...


4.lastly a calendar proposed by:



> Originally Posted by BramGaunt
> I would make a shot and say DE in October.
> 
> Afaik the release schedule would be something like:
> 
> April: BA
> 
> May: LotR supplement + O&G plastics
> 
> June: Spearhead with some plastic kits
> 
> July: Warhammer 8th
> 
> August: Warhammer Armybook of some kind:
> 
> September: Warhammer starterkit
> 
> October: Codex: Whatsoever
> 
> November: Armybook
> 
> December: Usual Christmas stuff, possibly 2nd wave of Codex: Whatsoever


DPA's reply




> Close, in fact very, very close.


December/January GK anyone?


**NEW**

From Steppingonyou, Warseer, who has contributed to the fantasy rumors of late, was attacked by various people, but defended by some big names. 



> i really wish i didnt take so much heat and stop posting rumors. as GK are an army i play i payed close attention when the parade of stuff got waved by my face.
> 
> it will be nice to have some new GK units in a few months. ive said too much


----------



## Bindi Baji

it's nice the gk rumours are beginning to flow a little from more then one source,
I don't believe the sisters are that far behind and on the question of penitent engines i'm sure someone mentioned not that long ago that there was going to be a new model


----------



## Bindi Baji

Next 40k codex will be........................


GK's!
:biggrin:


----------



## boreas

My blood pressure just dropped 20 points. Please, pretty please, tell us you have a reliable source!!!!

:shok:


Phil


----------



## bhsman

Where are you getting that from?


----------



## Catpain Rich

If he's right then fuck the kroot i'm getting myself an army of daemonhurters!


----------



## rasolyo

Bindi Baji said:


> Next 40k codex will be........................
> 
> 
> GK's!
> :biggrin:


Hmm.

Let's see if I can get this right:

If x is A or B or C,
and x is neither A nor B...

OH MY GOD SISTERS OF BATTLE CODEX.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Ummm...eventually, probably...in the meantime, focus on the here and now please.

Demon Prince Adramalech has kept at it, Incoming spearhead thread on warseer is full of all sorts of interesting tidbits.

that isnt to say that anything inquisition will pop up in spearhead...just the opposite if I understood correctly, but anytime between gamesday and the end of the year seems open for certain robed marines, with sword symbology, that aren't Dark Angels to receive a shiny new codex.


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> pretty please, tell us you have a reliable source!!


well I believe I have, so yes


----------



## Vhalyar

He certainly is throwing a lot of quotes and beating around the (GK) bush rather overtly.



Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> The veil parts.......images flash before his daemonic eyes......flashes of robes, flashes of power armour, flashes of a broken sword.





Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Ok i'll throw you a bone, the sons of the lion are not the only chapter to utelise a sword in their heraldry.





Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Did i ever say that i meant the sword was broken in the literal sense?


Awesome thread by the way, it's why I decided to register


----------



## Bindi Baji

Purge the Heretic said:


> but anytime between gamesday and the end of the year seems open for certain robed marines, with sword symbology, that aren't Dark Angels to receive a shiny new codex.


I believe they are pencilled in a little bit earlier, but just a little


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It seems Games Day is on the 21st of August. From what I gather we should see GK in August-September but of late Ive been hearing rumours of them getting pushed to the end of the year or early 2011.

Its getting a bit cluttered now, from what I heard 8ed fantasy is suppose to come out and with it allot of fantasy releases but so far its been ALLOT of 40k this year. Does this mean the 2nd half of the year will be fantasy only?
From what I heard we should see atleast 2 more codicies this year, the ones that have been mentioned are BT, GK, DE and Necrons in that order.
Personally I think GK and DE but thats just guesswork.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> It seems Games Day is on the 21st of August.


that's gamesday US I believe, gamesday UK is september, things are generally (not always) more tied into the UK gamesday
I believe that gk's have actually been brought forward as opposed to pushed back



MadCowCrazy said:


> Personally I think GK and DE but thats just guesswork.


it's not bad for guesswork then


----------



## Babypowder

From everything I've read and such it seems like to me that almost all the correct predictions so far are a full month or so ahead of schedule. When people talk dates of release and such they will usually give themselves some 'wiggle room' in case things do happen to push it back. Hopefully this means good things for the =][=, GK, and SoB.


----------



## bhsman

When you say that GK are next, Bindi, do you mean:

A) Grey Knight standalone codex

B) Daemonhunters (Grey Knights and Inquisitorial forces)

C) Combined Inquisition


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

i refrained from asking that question, as even GW dont seem to know the answer


----------



## Bindi Baji

bhsman said:


> When you say that GK are next


A= Codex Grey Knights


----------



## bhsman

Bindi Baji said:


> A= Codex Grey Knights


Ugh, what a waste.


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Bindi Baji said:


> A= Codex Grey Knights


any idea on when we'll see the other non-gk/sob inquisition stuff?


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Posted by Erikthered (who lives in italy) (his 4th post on warseer sonot sure of the reliability? anybody thats speaks italian want to PM him for the specific forum?)



> Inquisition/GKs has been "confirmed" to be the next codex also by the italian GW events coordinator (on an italian forum). He also told us to go read well the fluff about the Stormraven on the BA codex...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Nemesis-The-Warlock said:


> any idea on when we'll see the other non-gk/sob inquisition stuff?


not really no, I think we'll see SOB about a year from now but in regards to what they do with the inquisition itself maybe late next year but that's a guess


----------



## Grim_Chris

Bindi Baji said:


> that's gamesday US I believe, gamesday UK is september, things are generally (not always) more tied into the UK gamesday
> I believe that gk's have actually been brought forward as opposed to pushed back



can you please tell me who the source is. I really want to believe it. 

Thanks


----------



## wickedchild

Well, I really hope that they will not get rid of the Repentia.
Although they are not gamer-friendly (those rules.....), I find them really fluffy and can't just understand while they would stop them instead of improving their stats and/or rules

By the way, any rumours on the Black Templars ?


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Grim_Chris said:


> can you please tell me who the source is. I really want to believe it.
> 
> Thanks


Source naming gets people fired.


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> Next 40k codex will be........................
> 
> 
> GK's!
> :biggrin:


What do you make of this entry at BoLS?



Bell of Lost Souls said:


> We are now hearing from multiple sources that the Dark Eldar are next in line. Their time is now. Look for them on the far side of the Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition update. That should place them in the August-October timeframe. A slew of new minis and nasty fast-paced rules are to be expected.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im wondering about that myself. From what I gathered the DE would be out later than that. GW has been doing a Xeno, Imperium, Xeno, Imperium release schedule for a long time though so if GK were next it would break that pattern, unless you count the June stuff with the rumoured Eldar vehicle.


----------



## BringerOfDeath

it is looking like it will be DE first around games day and than GK before xmas
that is if DE have not been delayed and we may see GK first 
only time will tell


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> What do you make of this entry at BoLS?


It's not too far from the truth, I already mentioned DE would be released around that time a fair while ago but as I understand they are now after GK's.

DE will be shown at GDUK but afaik they will not be on sale quite then


----------



## Vhalyar

Neat, in that case by Games Day Baltimore we'll already have seen them.


----------



## Vhalyar

Sorry for the double post, but this tidbit just came from the Dark Eldar thread on Warseer:



Thud said:


> From what I hear the codex [Dark Eldar] is finished, but has not yet hit the printers and there is still some debate about which time slot it will be awarded; either October '10 or January '11.
> 
> The source is very reliable, but the above is just my interpretation of what was said.


This goes along with that Bindi Baji said.

Better yet, if we add this quote from Daemon Prince Adramalech from the *two new codexes in May* thread...



Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> The veil parts.......images flash before his daemonic eyes......flashes of robes, flashes of power armour, flashes of a broken sword.
> 
> A second image takes the place of the first....flashes of sand, flashes of an ancient race long since decayed to dust and bone......the daemon smiles.....the veil is drawn back into place.


... then it points to GK being released before the Dark Eldar.

As an aside, in heraldry 'broken' is synonymous with debruised if anyone's curious as to DPA's choice of word/thinking of Dark Angels.


----------



## boreas

> As an aside, in heraldry 'broken' is synonymous with debruised if anyone's curious as to DPA's choice of word/thinking of Dark Angels.


Haha, I noted that in the Warseer discussion... Scryer in the Darkness wrote I was wrong (althought I stick to my point of being right where Heraldry is concerned!!!). Debruised means there is something over on the heraldry. A book over a sword would be a sword debruised. It's not a very good use of "Debruised" and broken is not usually used to mean debruised, hence Scryer's refuttal...

The "ancient race long since decayed to dust and bone" is quite probably Necrons, which are also competing for those places... 

I still hope we come first. As of now, only our codice have been pulled...

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Yeah, when I saw all those people saying "broken? that must be DA!" I was asking myself what the hell they were thinking. This pretty much got confirmed when DPA later corrected that he was not literal with the use of broken :biggrin:

As for the "ancient race long since decayed to dust and bone" I think he's making allusions to the Tomb Kings. Dust and bones is more their thing rather than Necrons', plus it wouldn't be strange for WHFB and WH40K armies to be released in the same month; the same can't be said of two WH40K armies. Keep in mind the thread where it came from, titled "two new codexes in may". I don't think the may part is right though since that's too close to the BA release.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have to say I agree with Vhalyar. From what I have gathered rumours wise people are expecting the fantasy 8ed sometime this year,
allot of people were expecting a summer release.
With 8ed two armies have been mentioned allot, OK and TK.
From the above posts one could assume Tomb Kings is to be released just before GK or the same month as the GK.
This would fit into the time schedule if we got 8ed in July, Tomb Kings in August and Grey Knights in September.
This is the way I have interpreted the mass of rumours I have gathered, but this is still just my guesswork so dont take it literally

Btw, added to the rumours section because I find it a good bit of information. It has been a really dry news week but this info was good


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> This would fit into the time schedule if we got 8ed in July, Tomb Kings in August and Grey Knights in September.


I don't pay a huge amount of attention to fantasy (unless it's lizardmen related) but I believe tomb kings are much later then that, I think it was from quotes by Harry as well as another reliable source that was copied on here a while back


----------



## TheKingElessar

I previously stated my belief it would be GKs. lol

I didn't read the whole thread (sorry) but are O&G out before summer? If not, I'd say put them in that slot you have for TK, and we have a winner.

Of course, if DE are next immediately after GK, and Necrons are in Jan 2011, then it breaks the Imp/Xenos cycle anyway...meaning BTs are probably going to push Necrons back, or DE will be next year (more likely)


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> I don't pay a huge amount of attention to fantasy (unless it's lizardmen related) but I believe tomb kings are much later then that, I think it was from quotes by Harry as well as another reliable source that was copied on here a while back





TheKingElessar said:


> I previously stated my belief it would be GKs. lol
> 
> I didn't read the whole thread (sorry) but are O&G out before summer? If not, I'd say put them in that slot you have for TK, and we have a winner.
> 
> Of course, if DE are next immediately after GK, and Necrons are in Jan 2011, then it breaks the Imp/Xenos cycle anyway...meaning BTs are probably going to push Necrons back, or DE will be next year (more likely)


Isn't the May release actually just a wave of O&G? At least that's how the thread on Warseer started, it might have changed since then.

As for which WHFB race is next, the big contenders were OK and TK. Last I checked, which was some time ago, the OK release had been pushed back because of the 8th edition which would have made their rulebook incompatible/horrible with 7th edition. But then again the WHFB situation is a gigantic mess apparently and some notorious posters have more or less stopped posting anything because of that.

As for the typical codex cycle, let's take a look at the releases, from oldest to newest:

Necrons
Daemonhunters
Dark Eldar
*Witch Hunters
Black Templar*
Tau Empire
Eldar
*Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines*
Orks
Chaos Daemons
Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Space Wolves
Tyranids
Blood Angels

So really, the cycle's been broken a couple of times in the past. If you count CSM as non-"Imperial", that's 3 xenos back to back. So really, it wouldn't be a surprise to have Blood Angels followed by Grey Knights, and then Dark Eldar followed by Necrons.

Edit: DPA is being sneaky once again 

Random person said:


Ironhand said:


> Add to which that while there seems to be a consensus that the GK will probably be in the next 5 or so Codexes to be released, there is no agreement about exactly where in the queue they are.
> 
> It's also possible that GW may release a kit or two this year - Grey Knights Terminators in plastic maybe? - without releasing a new Codex for them.


To which he replied:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> The order of the "Queue" might suprise you
> 
> Terminators but no codex??? Such strange rumours floating around the mill these days...


----------



## cwcuran45

Hey guys this was posted by Harry the other day on warseer:

"If I was sure of a date and knew they (Dark Eldar) were 'next' I might throw a few more details into the pot but I am not sure there is not something else coming before them."

Since the general consensus seems to be that DE and GK are next in line, then this adds some more clout to the previous posts on this thread stating that GK are next up. It's not anything solid, but then again that's what makes it a rumour


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Isn't the May release actually just a wave of O&G?


yes it is


Vhalyar said:


> So really, the cycle's been broken a couple of times in the past.


the "cycle" is caused by the high number of imperial armies, the only planned part of the cycle is not to release too many SM armies together


----------



## TheKingElessar

Vhalyar said:


> As for the typical codex cycle, let's take a look at the releases, from oldest to newest:
> 
> Necrons
> Daemonhunters
> Dark Eldar
> *Witch Hunters
> Black Templar*
> Tau Empire
> Eldar
> *Dark Angels
> Chaos Space Marines*
> Orks
> Chaos Daemons
> Space Marines
> Imperial Guard
> Space Wolves
> Tyranids
> Blood Angels


But that's not the TRUE cycle, as it doesn't feature rereleases in that time, eg the older WolfDex, IG, 3(?) Space Marine Dexes, another each of Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau and Chaos, Craftworld Eldar, EoT, Armageddon etc etc.

A more comprehensive list may throw up a better indication. Worth a go?


----------



## Vhalyar

Eh probably not, like Bindi said it's more of a case of GW trying to space out the various releases, but between the abundance of Imperial/SM armies and delays/new editions sometimes it results in back to back xenos or Imp/SM codices. It was just a way to illustrate the fact that it wouldn't be too strange for two SM armies (BA and GK) to be released back to back.


----------



## rodmillard

MadCowCrazy said:


> This would fit into the time schedule if we got 8ed in July, Tomb Kings in August and Grey Knights in September.


I was under the impression from fantasy rumour threads (both here and on Warseer) that the september slot would be the new WFB box set. With nothing else on the horizon after Battlehosts I would expect a LOTR release in August - otherwise, they will be waiting until November and I doubt GW would go 6 months without a release, even if it is just a splash release like the Isengard heroes. It has also been stated on warseer that the DE codex is finished and will be released either in October'10 or January '11, which would fit. The only other codex AFAIK that is far enough along to bump DE back would be Inquisition, in whatever form it takes.

EDIT - I originally had Spearhead in the August slot, but apparently that is coming out in June


----------



## Vhalyar

Funny thing, while looking for a quote from Jervis, I found something Harry wrote in *January* 2009 about Grey Knights. He later edited it out, but it was forever captured by the people who quoted him.



Harry said:


> Not 2009 but not tooooo long away either.


Sneaky devil, he already had a fair idea of what the pipeline would look like.
Edit: Aaaand throughout that specific thread he keeps mentioning Gk in 2010. Funny indeed.


----------



## cwcuran45

Great find Vhalyar! In my extreme boredom and procrastination I started pilfering through that thread. On page 16 some of the posters did some good digging and came across some strong info that seemed to suggest Phil Kelly is writing the GK codex (I've heard this before, but it's nice to be able to back it up with something and Harry in his wishy washy way confirms it a couple posts later). 

The next page Harry also says "...and you didn't here about jump packs from me either! "
Again this isn't the first time I've heard this one but still good to see it from somewhere else.

So without getting into wishlisting are there any other new units rumored to be in the next GK codex other than the storm raven and GK's with jump packs?


----------



## rodmillard

The =I= thread on warseer is currently arguing over someone's description of "Sammael like grey knights" - does this mean GK on jetbikes (and if so how will they retcon the DA fluff) or a new landspeeder variant? I would expect to see one or the other, although my personal preference would be for GK jetbikes - might make them a little less like silver marines.


----------



## Vhalyar

There's two things to keep in mind. First, why say "Look at Sammael!" if it's actually about Landspeeders and not jetbike? By and large people associate him with the bike and not the speeder.

Second, it was posted by Stickmonkey. Later Harry posted in his thread saying that Stickmonkey's information was a big jumble of false and true information. So there's a fair chance that in the end this isn't even real.

Edit: Something from Warseer, with a caveat.


steppingonyou said:


> take this for what it is, but im pretty sure i got a good look at some WIP GK. also some GK land raider stuff. i was told it COULD be a mobile command center for inquisitors. im gonna try to squeeze info of plastic storm troopers. wish me luck


Steppingonyou seems to be a frequent rumor poster for WHFB. Souds reliable right? Problem is Harry seems to have gotten pissed at him.

For what's it's worth, the Land Raider he described would be a Forge World Prometheus.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

From what I've been able to gather, stepping had been used to seeing things shortly before they come out...

Sometimes he sees them much further out, and he never knows which is which, sounds like he gets an occasional poke around the studio or something, and he tends to jump the gun lately as he has been seeing things further out in the production line. 

Also he got misled by a steamtank-ish conversion, thinking it was a production model for dwarves, while it was instead someone's (a staffer's?) personal model.

Most of what he brings seems like it will come to the table eventually, but the time line is definitely in question.

-----

Now about the old Inquisition thread on warseer, I definitely remember it or another like it, I posted in it, drew a thing or two out of harry at the time, If I remember correctly GK mid 2010 at the earliest, with sisters not till 2011 at the earliest, which matches our current speculation/rumors.

I'm still hesitant to say GK are next definitively as my favorite sources make a comment or two in other threads, but then mostly clam up once an inquisition specific thread is created. It's frustrating and strange.


----------



## boreas

On Warseer's DE thread, Darnok says :


> If I were you, I'd be patient for just a few more days...


in response to someone asking:



> Aaargh!
> Can GW hurry up and release the Dark Eldar already! I can handle this...it's to much. I'm like a little kid- I want 'em now


No to be unkind to DE players, but I sure hope he's wrong :/

Phil


----------



## rodmillard

Vhalyar said:


> Steppingonyou seems to be a frequent rumor poster for WHFB. Souds reliable right? Problem is Harry seems to have gotten pissed at him.
> 
> For what's it's worth, the Land Raider he described would be a Forge World Prometheus.


Yeah, I own a prometheus - would be great to be allowed to use it in *official* games! If its =I= only, the option to take psycannon rounds on that thing would be hideous...

Stickmonkey freely admits that his access is to the modelling section of the design studio, and a lot of what he sees are either concepts that don't end up being used or designers personal projects that are never *intended* for release. Nevertheless the possibilities are intriguing.

Steppingonyou's posts are more controversial. Personally, I suspect he does have limited inside information and passes on what he is told in good faith, but either he blows a throwaway line out of all proportion or one of his sources is treating him like a mushroom (kept in the dark and fed shit). As a result, I tend to take his posts as a great start for debate, but don't believe anything until someone like Harry or Hastings confirms it.

Nevertheless, I think its inevitable that GK will get some new FA choices. If we accept harry's comment about jump packs, and the hints at StormRavens given in the Bangle codex, that still leaves us missing a mobile gun platform - something that seems to be standard now, whether its vypers, warbuggies, or scout sentinels. Both Jetbikes (as sammaels) or Land Speeders (with different weapon options to C:SM) would fill this niche for the =I=. Hence, I expect to see one or the other.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I'd like the GKs to get AV14 Speeders, very interesting.


----------



## Vhalyar

Thanks for the precision concerning Steppingonyou, that's interesting. Then again he didn't make some kind of grand revelation by saying GK would get a new LR variant :biggrin:


----------



## rodmillard

Just so people are aware, the =I= rumour thread on Warseer has now been closed by the mods.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Mostly due to wishlisting, as I say, apart from DPA's one post in the thread, it was mostly devoid of good sources.

He and others have posted hints of GK's in other threads, but when an actual inquisition thread is created all goes silent.


----------



## cwcuran45

Is it just me or does it seem like the mods at Warseer are quick to close =I= threads. Maybe I'm way off but the DE rumor thread is just as wish listy and it's over 40 pages.

A little more OT. Melissia posted this over in BOLS lounge: "Someone on the IGMB said they heard the GK Terminators were near completion."

Hardly what I'd call a strong rumor since it's so "I heard that someone said..." but it's a rumor I'd like to believe.


----------



## Vhalyar

I ended up asking Codsticker (the mod) about the closure of the topic, mostly to see if it couldn't be moved to General Discussion like the Necron one. He replied:



Codsticker said:


> I may do that; there is some discussion amongst the mods regarding the GK rumour thread.


Oh well.

Also, I found the source of Melissia's comment. Talk about vague... 



deton8r said:


> Word that i got was that roughly october was going to be the gk release and its not going to include SoB, aparently the gk termies are almost there and look awesome.


This sounds like he's just repeating some known information (like, say, Stickmonkey's report of seeing GK 3ups) rather than bringing something new to the table.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I didnt add anything from the thread from warseer because I felt it was pretty much just a repetition of what has already been said. Its been a really dry week for GK rumours, Im hoping we get some more info soon. Only thing Im 100% sure of so far is that we will see GK this year, when is up for grabs still but I think 2nd half of the year.


----------



## rodmillard

> Originally Posted by Codsticker
> I may do that; there is some discussion amongst the mods regarding the GK rumour thread.


Thats 4 =I= threads closed on warseer in 5 weeks. I really hope the thread does get reopened in 40k general, because its starting to look like the mods are deliberately suppressing something.


----------



## TheKingElessar

rodmillard said:


> Thats 4 =I= threads closed on warseer in 5 weeks. I really hope the thread does get reopened in 40k general, because its starting to look like the mods are deliberately suppressing something.


Sssshhhh! You'll get THIS one closed!

Oh right. Good forum. :laugh:


----------



## Vhalyar

The Dark Eldar thread on Warseer has been kept open and moved to General Discussions. Apparently discussing Dark Eldars is A-OK, but the Inquisition is not. :laugh:

Meanwhile on BoLS, the Inquisition thread has devolved to talk of rape, feminism, lesbians and bodily harm. Good times.

And to get back on topic, though nothing all that important came up this week, we still got a few bits and other miscellaneous information that reinforces the idea that GK are coming this year... or at the very latest in January.


----------



## rodmillard

The Warseer thread was quietly moved to 40K general last night - apparently noone noticed...


----------



## Vhalyar

Glad they realized that moving the DE thread but closing the Inquisition one was a pretty silly choice.
Edit: New DE rumor thread up on Warseer; the rumor floodgates have been somewhat opened, so it's not looking good for GK being the next codex.

i misinterpreted the DPA quotes, my mistake.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

> Implying DE by winter.


Not at all, a gritter is a salt spreader and NaCL is the chemical formula for salt...so what he is saying is to take a healthy dose of salt with the DE rumors, though the other could be true as well.

also this is only the latest DE thread, and he could be referrring to the specific rumors therein, however what he added about release schedules puts that in doubt.


----------



## Vhalyar

My mistake then :biggrin:


----------



## BringerOfDeath

I thought he meant that they will be out in winter or is this just me wishing GK would get there codex first


----------



## boreas

Well, he did include the mention of Exterminatus. If anyone else had used that term, I'd think it a simply cool formulation. With DPA, though, I'm inclined to read everything with a double sense.

It would be very cruel to the DE players to have more and more rumours only to be put back in line. But still, I want my shiny new now codex in October!!!

Phil


----------



## Purge the Heretic

I am a little more detatched, as a sisters player rather than GK, so I try to keep you all level headed, I'll need the same come 2011 when I'm scouring the internet for sisters rumors.

But it is looking good for you in many respects, but until an official GW announcement or some less subtle hints from my favorites, I'd say be hopeful but patient as best as you can.

"by what DPA knows of the release schedule" part of the quote does seem to be a very good portent, *crosses fingers*

Thud says (paraphrased):

DE codex 100% done, not yet printed, release date still TBD.


----------



## Vhalyar

In a previous post Thud said that the release order/date was still in the air, so apparently things still haven't been decided. That's a good thing (depending on which side of the fence you are).

And it turns out that the entire Dark Eldar thread was a lie, good going Warseer. So which codex is next is still quite up in the air.


----------



## Vhalyar

Sorry for the double post, but this is very, VERY much worth it:



Harry said:


> Sorry I missed this before it got moved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, no. According to every reliable source, from Brimstone to Jervis himself, Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle are NOT getting combined.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Certainly when these projects started that was the way of it. Grey knights and Sisters were two different books with two different writers. I can't imagine that would have changed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add to which that while there seems to be a consensus that the GK will probably be in the next 5 or so Codexes to be released, there is no agreement about exactly where in the queue they are.
> 
> It's also possible that GW may release a kit or two this year - Grey Knights Terminators in plastic maybe? - without releasing a new Codex for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Next two I would say.
> Unlikely they will start releasing new minis without a new codex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently many of you have missed alot, since the threads on this subject keep delving into wishlisting too quickly and getting locked, but there are many threads here on warseer that give us hints and hope of a Grey Knights codex this year.
> 
> Summarized From Demon Prince Adralmech who had given us descriptions of the Sanguinary guard back in January:
> 
> "The Stormraven will be in the codex"
> 
> vision of "power armor, robes, and a "broken" sword"
> (He repeatedly states the broken sword is not literal, Grey Knight insignia is a sword through a book)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All of that sounds about right.
> Expect plenty of power armour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently Phil Kelly's writing the book, so it's most likely in very good hands
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He wasn't originally. I think Andy Hoare was writing the book originally before he left GW. Maybe Phil took it on when he left? Honestly I don't know who is doing it now or how far along the book would have been at the time he left.
> 
> Seems to me Phil Kelly gets credited for writing every book on this forum. I know he is a power house but they guy has to sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reading through that topic I linked, it seems like Harry already expected GK/DH/Inq/Whatever-Shape-It-Takes for 2010, back in January 2009.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did ... I still do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well apart from a few comments from those in the know, which seem to indicate that grey knights might be out next, but might not, and posts in other threads which hint they are close, but DE may be first.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is about the size of it. You seem to be keeping up with the rumours very nicely.
Click to expand...


----------



## boreas

I can feel it in the air! I can't wait for the next GW mail. Six months seems so very close!

Time to order that FW GK dread?

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

While digging for old quotes, I found an error about the whole too much daylight comment from DPA.

It seems that he wasn't talking about Grey Knights, but instead about a xenos super-heavy vehicle.

Basically I started at that particular quote and climbed up the tree to the source :biggrin:

It started with:


Absolutionis said:


> This may lend more credibility to the recent rumors of the plastic Eldar Scorpion/Cobra kit that is supposedly in the works.


DPA replied:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> There won't be any xenos super heavies in this release but thats not to say we aren't getting any...we'll have to wait for the days to get a little darker before we see something like that.


Someone made a guess:


Chem-Dog said:


> Meaning after summer.....wild speculation here....around Gamesday...


Which led to the fateful reply that we have in MadCowCrazy's OP:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Close...but still too much daylight...


I think the confusion came from the fact that in a single post he answered a bunch of questions. You can see the post here and see that his GK answer and the daylight answer are unrelated. And here you can see Chem-Dog's post, which led to the confusion since he says a bunch of things with no relations to each other.


Edit: Yeah, now might be a good time to get the FW Grey Knight Dreadnought, or at least the Nemesis Force Weapon arm  It seems so very obvious that GW will implement those in the codex that it would be stupid not to.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Vhalyar said:


> While digging for old quotes, I found an error about the whole too much daylight comment from DPA.


My mistake, the topic of conversation was jumping back and forth at the time, he was referring to vehicle xenos releases with that one, it got mixed in with the grey knights stuff.

On the bright side, Harry has speculated that GK are one of the next two releases.

Pie for the Pie God!

Also while you are here, go and comment on my 2500 pt 'ard boys list please and thank you.


----------



## Vhalyar

Edit: Cheers, all confusion cleared


----------



## Dagmire

After having checked on the GW website I found both DH and WH codexs have been withdrawn. I phoned them and asked what i was ment to do with models i had. They told me that they couldnt tell me anything that was more then 1 month in advance.
Not really news but for thoughs that didnt know, the dex's are gone. Take from this what you will


----------



## rodmillard

Dagmire said:


> After having checked on the GW website I found both DH and WH codexs have been withdrawn. I phoned them and asked what i was ment to do with models i had. They told me that they couldnt tell me anything that was more then 1 month in advance.


This got picked up on Warseer as well, although AFAIK you're the only person who's been given anything like a timescale (albeit "more than one month" - not exactly specific)

What interests me is that the Battle Sister's box set has also been removed - someone commented (can't remember who, or if it was actual news or just speculation) that this may mean the models you get in the box will no longer be a legal unit.

With the confirmed rumours for DE and grey knights in the next two release slots, that leaves Necrons (known to be in the works) and WH/SOB (also known to be in the works but "some way behind" Grey Knights) to come out early in 2011 - although that would mean 4 consecutive releases with no SM chapter (GK don't count) which would be some kind of record for GW...


----------



## Purge the Heretic

From Harry:

DE range is NOT done, but the first wave is.


Interesting implications, though it could mean nothing.


----------



## Vhalyar

Nothing really interesting since Harry's rumor confirmation, but if the first wave of DE is ready that's good enough for a release.

Something else came up, The Dude at Warseer posted this in the new Necron Rumors thread....


The Dude said:


> I think there's a reason the last thread went to General.
> 
> I'm guessing Necrons are still too far out to get anything reliable, especailly about rules.
> 
> You probably _would_ be better off talking about Grey Knights.


Note the wording and italic, hard to tell if he's aware of something or just going by the general sentiment that GK are close. Funny though that he didn't say "better off talking about Grey Knights or Dark Eldar"


----------



## Bindi Baji

rodmillard said:


> and WH/SOB (also known to be in the works but "some way behind" Grey Knights) to come out early in 2011


sorry, I don't believe that much is yet happening other then planning, 12 months at very least



Vhalyar said:


> Funny though that he didn't say "better off talking about Grey Knights or Dark Eldar"


I imagine thats because a new DE codex has been rumoured since leeches became a medical fad


----------



## mahavira

Question for those with some level of 'insider information': the consensus seems to be that GK are coming soon and SoB not for at least a year. If this is the case, why did they take the WH codex out of circulation at the same time as the DH, not to mention the minis have been removed in some countries? That seems really premature. My pet theory has been a combined codex with GK minis coming out first, but again the people who have some claim to insider information deny a combined codex is even contemplated. If anyone has a theory, however half baked or unfounded, I'm curious - there's usually a method to madness and I'm not seeing it.


----------



## Dagmire

If we go off the way books are released then maybe you should look at this post 
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59981
I remember they rereleased the Wolf omnibus came out shortly before the wolf dex no?
Interesting
D


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

The book Ploss posted is a little way off release by the sounds of it.


----------



## verythrax

Nah, Black Library is just capitalizing on the upcoming release of the FFG's DeathWatch RPG.


----------



## rodmillard

verythrax said:


> Nah, Black Library is just capitalizing on the upcoming release of the FFG's DeathWatch RPG.


QFT. Although, if GW were to release Codex: Inquisition around the same time the marketting would pretty much write itself...

Edit: Maybe this is the reason for the uncertainty with regards to GK/DE for the october release slot - GW are timing the =I= codex to get the maximum free publicity from other company's releases.


----------



## Bindi Baji

rodmillard said:


> Maybe this is the reason for the uncertainty with regards to GK/DE for the october release slot - GW are timing the =I= codex to get the maximum free publicity from other company's releases.


GW have enough problems timing their own material, the idea that they would attempt to tie something in with another company's release (despite the link) is extremely unlikely


----------



## Vhalyar

I don't suppose anyone here with some interest in Grey Knights will be attending Gamesday France on the 18th? It'd be a good opportunity to ask about them.


----------



## Aeddon

Not the one on France but I'll probably be in Baltimore for the US Gamesday this year.


----------



## fynn

i be at a show this weekend in somerset, and GW will be there, so may be alble to find some info/rumors from the guys there, but dont hold your breath though


----------



## Vhalyar

Well, looks like DE are beating GK to the punch.



reds8n said:


> _[Speaking of the Dark Eldar]_
> Nope.
> 
> Playtesting etc is well and truly finished.
> 
> Book is at the printers.


Keep in mind he's basically Dakka's Harry in terms of reliability.
I don't suppose you've got anything new on the subject, Bindi?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Playtesting had been done for a while, by my reckoning...like, before Xmas...

I believe Regional Managers have seen the GK Dex, with no mention of DE being at the same stage...and awkward pauses when I ask GK questions in store are funny.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> I don't suppose you've got anything new on the subject, Bindi?


as far as i'm aware DE are still behind GK,
DE is definately not at the print stage now, however that said, GK isn't either


----------



## bobss

Bindi Baji said:


> as far as i'm aware DE are still behind GK,
> DE is definately not at the print stage now, however that said, GK isn't either


DakkaDakka and Warseer would say otherwise, Dark Eldar perhaps being the next Codex out, and it seems that Grey Knights are not on the cards this year, with Black Templars a possibility, followed by Necrons...


----------



## asianavatar

Stopped into the GW store yesterday. All Inquisition products have been pulled off the shelves, this includes Witchhunters. The red shirt and the store said that HO said all the Inquisition stuff is now obsolete product.


----------



## Bindi Baji

bobss said:


> DakkaDakka and Warseer would say otherwise


GK + DE are the next 40k codexes but neither are yet being printed, 
entirely because there is fantasy stuff ahead of them.




I'm waiting for a few replies, will return when i get 'em


----------



## spudboy

asianavatar said:


> Stopped into the GW store yesterday. All Inquisition products have been pulled off the shelves, this includes Witchhunters. The red shirt and the store said that HO said all the Inquisition stuff is now obsolete product.


Nice to know they are on top of things local to you. I still can find metal gargoyles.

That said, I think I need to be stocking up on GK Termies. I truly like those, and wouldn't want to see them replaced with anything less.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Bindi Baji said:


> GK + DE are the next 40k codexes but neither are yet being printed,
> entirely because there is fantasy stuff ahead of them....


Sounds very reasonable. WD is printed 3 months in advance. That means that the number that is printed in May is the August one:read:
Knowing that this gives us the fact that Codices/Armybooks are done the same way, its kind of hard to have them in their release number if that aint true, right? 
The summer spells F A N T A S Y in the land of GW this year....


----------



## asianavatar

> That said, I think I need to be stocking up on GK Termies. I truly like those, and wouldn't want to see them replaced with anything less.


What if they were replaced with the same model but plastic with more options. Would that be okie.


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> GK + DE are the next 40k codexes but neither are yet being printed,
> entirely because there is fantasy stuff ahead of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm waiting for a few replies, will return when i get 'em


Looking forward to those, since right now the information is highly conflicted on all sides. I wouldn't mind Reds8n being wrong, though :biggrin:

Edit: Someone proposed the following release schedule.


MajorWesJanson said:


> Edit: Updating my predicted schedule:
> May: Orcs and Goblins Models, LotR Battlehosts
> June: Spearhead
> July: WHFB 8th Edition Rulebook, wave models (cavalry kits, Daemon Models?)
> *August: Dark Eldar (Warriors, Wytches, Raider/Ravager kit, Hellions, metal new units, character blisters)*
> September: WHFB 8th Starter
> *October: Grey Knights (PAGK, GKTs, Storm Raven, ISTs in plastic)*
> November: Holiday bundles (Megaforces), wave models (1-2 DE plastics), and big kits (Eldar Grav Tank?)
> December: see above
> *January: Necrons*
> February: Fantasy Army (TK or OK I suspect)
> March: Wave release for DE, new supplement (maybe siege battles for fantasy?)
> April: Black Templars
> May: Fantasy Army


My emphasis in bold.
To which hastings replied:


75hastings69 said:


> That's one of the strongest lists I've seen, it's not 100% accurate IMO but not bad. I think your fantasy feb 2011 entry is incorrect, don't expect the same running order as before, it "could" be something that was done at the beginning of 7th that gets an early update..... however a 40k rumour thread (not where I normally hang out) isn't really the place to discuss that. Overall not a bad guess/guidline for things to come.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I was going to say templars were a long way off earlier (actually I did, but I edited it) but all i'll say now is they won't be released before DE or GK. 

Playtesting on DE has not finished -yet, no idea about GK testing unfortunately.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Harry says:



> @Purge the heretic.
> 
> I swear I still don't know which of these two armies is next.



And they're off...coming to the first turn and they're neck and neck, Dark Eldar takes a momentary lead passing April Fool's day, It looks like Dark Eldar will go all the way...whats this? Grey Knight is surging... he's caught up ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a race.

EDIT: Vahalyar, no, Just a personally directed reply from a thread on warseer.

EDIT2: +2 save army would be...evil


----------



## Vhalyar

Meanwhile the Necron car is moving ponderously and back at the finish line Space Wolves and Blood Angels are making fun of the Black Templar racer.

Oh well, this whole rumor situation is amusingly ridiculous.

Edit: Reply from Harry about my comment on him editing his wording in a previous post, from "power armour" to "artificer armour":


Harry said:


> What if they only wear artificer armour?


So every single GK gets to prance about with a 2+ save. Nice.


----------



## TheKingElessar

With the new O&G models, could Feb 2011 be them?

Also, that many DE releases seems improbable.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Not really compare it to the number of models in the range redo of skaven.


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheKingElessar said:


> Also, that many DE releases seems improbable.


normally I would agree, but seeing as the entire range is being re-sculpted with additional new models........................


----------



## bitsandkits

im expecting something really special with the DE, i was pretty disappointed back in the 90's the first time round so im hoping them make up for it this time. I think that GW are going to have to pull out all the stops and really really make some stunning models and attractive rules just to revive the army, they need to really be on par with the Orks in terms of an injection of quality kits and loads of plastic, the Orks like the dark eldar were mainly ignored for years and had very limited models which considering the number of codex entries really hurt the army, but after a few years of solid effort and quality releases and a strong codex the Orks are probly the second most popular army currently available and they still have plenty of options available to GW for future plastic kits.Something similar needs to happen for the DE, if they go half assed like they did with the Eldar codex the army will not sell as much as it needs to, the eldar codex had i think 1 new entry in the autarch and the models released were pretty much required rather than innovative, dont get me wrong i love the new war walkers and wraith lord and the dire avengers in plastic, but they were about 10 years too late for most eldar players, those kits should have been released with the wave serpent. 

This is a great chance to add another quality xenos army to the pack and i would even condone them striping away the current DE "raiding pirate"fluff if it meant they sold well and got plenty of players interested in a non imperial army, make them a blunt brutal killing tool army and leave the craftworlds at lightning scalpel strike army or even more radical give the player enough options to choose what type of DE force he wants to put out.


----------



## Kettu

Ok, so we are getting much needed info on Grey Knights and Dark Eldar but has there been any word at all about Sisters of Battle?

For some baffling reason I keep hearing from various people (Not a single one reliable but there is a fair few of them) that there will be Dark Angels and/or Black Templar before the girls.

I've been back through the start of this thread but there has been little news on them since this thread began. Most of which was supplied by only one person, Stickmonkey. So, sadly, we have little work on here but faith alone.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> Ok, so we are getting much needed info on Grey Knights and Dark Eldar but has there been any word at all about Sisters of Battle?


SOB are at least 18 months away unfortunately, they are planned but then so is an awful lot else, I think work is likely to commence around about the time GK are released


----------



## rodmillard

Harry has confirmed on Warseer that work started on the two books at the same time (which may be where the "combined =I= book" rumours came from) but GK are a lot further ahead that SoB, partly because of the modelling process.

From that I assume that either (a) the GK models will be much closer to the current ones, so the hard work is on tooling for plastic rather than actual greens (b) SoB will be getting a lot more unique units, or (c) GK are an easier release because so much of the design work dovetailed with other projects [i.e. the new SM ven dread, the StormRaven: "not ready in time for the BA release? not to worry, we can put it out with GK"]. Probably a combination of all 3. 

Since we are looking at GK in Oct 2010/Jan 2011 I would guess SoB are targetted for 12 months after that, although that is, as ever, subject to change.


----------



## wickedchild

Being a Black Templars AND a Sisters of Battle player, I really do not care which one is coming out first as long as it is Sooooooooooon :gamer2:


----------



## Bindi Baji

rodmillard said:


> Harry has confirmed on Warseer that work started on the two books at the same time


I very much doubt he said anything like that



rodmillard said:


> Since we are looking at GK in Oct 2010/Jan 2011 I would guess SoB are targetted for 12 months after that, although that is, as ever, subject to change.


if they were targetted for release in 18 months then there is no plausible way that they could have started at the same time as GK.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Bindi Baji said:


> SOB are at least 18 months away unfortunately, they are planned but then so is an awful lot else, I think work is likely to commence around about the time GK are released


Selfish it may be, but this suits me, as it gives me plenty of time to get a fund set up for their nice new models. lol


----------



## Kettu

Sigh, so we are looking at a winter/christmas 2011 or even early 2012 then.

Just pondering, but is there any suggested date for 6th edition? Because all things considered, I'd much rather they just postpone the Sisters and make them the first released for 6th if we are just going to have a repeat of their two previous dexes. 

2nd ed just months before 3rd and 3rd just months before 4th. Both time they were not written with the next edition in mind.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> Sigh, so we are looking at a winter/christmas 2011 or even early 2012 then.


quite probably, yes




Kettu said:


> Just pondering, but is there any suggested date for 6th edition?


the latest edition was only released last year, so no there isn't even a hint of a thought of an opinion or even a banana of a possibly suggested date, definately no bananas whatsoever


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sorry Ive been away for a few weeks.
Im back now, lots to read up on.
From what I gather we might see DE next and GK this winter?
I have allot of threads and forums to read through.


----------



## fynn

i had a chat with a guy from GW today, and as per normal, he claimed that there told nothing about the release's, and only know what we know. the only thing he did say, when i mentioned that all GK bits have been pulled from the shops/website, is that they done the same thing with the nids, and then released the nids.
take with pinch of salt, as i never belive what GW staff tell me, especaily when the claim there never told anything.....lol


----------



## Vhalyar

rodmillard said:


> Since we are looking at GK in Oct 2010/Jan 2011 I would guess SoB are targetted for 12 months after that, although that is, as ever, subject to change.


Or perhaps in August, as usual no one can say for sure what's going on/which army is getting released first.

Edit: For what it's worth, someone in the Necron rumor thread posted the following:



shaso_iceborn said:


> My source says about 18 more days till an announcement (though maybe not Necron in nature) for a 40k codex but, I am taking it with salt as I expect anyone else too as well.


So if he's right, we'll have a better idea of what's coming next this year.


----------



## Kettu

Interesting question that was just brought up on Warseer.

Why was Sisters stock yanked along side the GKnights?
A bit under a year I can understand. However, as Bindi said, Sisters are, allegedly, not due for another year and a bit then why were they not left up till next year?

Sorry, I really wish I had rumours to add but my only source (I spoke to him just on the weekend) now knows less then the web and he works for GW. Not that he ever really knew much ahead of the web but it was nice to hear from some one in person.

All he could tell me was to expect Grey Knights at the end of the year but he couldn't provide a date or anything new.


----------



## mahavira

I've been wondering this myself. Pulling the codex nearly 2 years (been gone a couple of months now, people are talking about 18 months from now) before a new codex is planned sounds a lot more like discontinuing the line than anything else (either that or a plot to deflate sales to justify discontinuing the line, but that's paranoia). Unless some of the information in circulation is wrong, something very odd is going on.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

I've seen posts of an email or two which stated that the SoB line would be redone, obviously anyone can make up an email and say it came from GW, but one of these was a poster I've come to trust,


----------



## mahavira

I would believe a combined codex with GK coming out soonish and SoB at the end of next year. Those who claim to have insider info stomp down on the combined codex theory pretty hard (in this thread anyway). I would believe separate codices and coming out fairly close together, but that doesn't seem to be what anyone in the know thinks. I don't believe for a second "separate codices with GK coming out soon and SoB not for another 18 months, with their current codex unavailable". It defies logic.

We appear to have 3 suppositions:
1) The line is not being discontinued
2) There will be separate codices for GK and SoB
3) SoB are not scheduled to have their codex released until 20 odd months after their old codex is pulled.

All 3 of these cannot be correct (if someone has a plausible reason to leave an army codexless for 2 years, I will gladly backtrack, but unless they are actually out of stock and their printing costs are structured such that it is not economically feasible to do a small enough print run to keep up with what demand there is without risking having a ton of overstock when the new codex does come out, I cannot see one).


----------



## Vhalyar

From the Spearhead thread at Warseer:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Justicar Valius said:
> 
> 
> 
> If i get this WD (unlikely as only 40k army i play is Pure DH and we are safe from updates)
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
Click to expand...

Not codex-related, but still something to look forward to.


----------



## Logyn

This may be nothing, but during my weekly trip to my FLGS, I happened to notice that the DH and WH models had disappeared from the shelf. When I asked, I was directed to the bargain table, and upon further inquiry was told that the reason they had landed there was due to the impending release of their new codex, coming either this summer or this fall.

Obviously this is not an OMG CONFIRMATION but all indicators do seem to be pointing to a release in the very near future.

Whether or not DE will be released first is an interesting question, but I will pose yet another: Why is the DE codex still on the website while the =][= have disappeared?

Food for thought. 

I for one am hopeful that ][nquisiton forces will be entering the 5th edition arena soon.


----------



## VanitusMalus

I think GK and SoB probably would have sold better had they came in plastic in the first place. Ofcourse they were released prior to the restructuring of GW when it came to model creation coinsiding with rules release.

Lots of people have been saying that they have a summer release date but we already know what's coming out in June (Spearhead and new tanks and what not for Eldar and IG), so I guess fingers crossed for July and August.


----------



## Vhalyar

July is confirmed to be WHFB 8th Edition, leaving August as the only probable month for a codex, and then October/November.


----------



## Bindi Baji

august is 40k


----------



## boreas

SeanDrake at B&C noticed that =I= chimera doors were not available anymore... Yet, the Rhino and LR doors are! No more chimeras? 

And if the folks at FW _know_ there are no more chimeras, it might be because the codex is finalized... (Pure speculation here, bordering on wishful thinking!)

Phil


----------



## tu_shan82

boreas said:


> SeanDrake at B&C noticed that =I= chimera doors were not available anymore... Yet, the Rhino and LR doors are! No more chimeras?
> 
> And if the folks at FW _know_ there are no more chimeras, it might be because the codex is finalized... (Pure speculation here, bordering on wishful thinking!)
> 
> Phil


Quite possible, but then again they just might not have been selling enough of them. I wish they'd take the Razorback MM from the site, as it hasn't been a legal upgrade for the tank since the end of 3rd ED, which is a pity as it is a handy variant.


----------



## subtlejoe

Could it be there big release for UK gamesday? they always release a new codex around that date, Normally after. but that makes the most sense. a duel codex make sense too, as you could have one standard Inquisitor with a shed load of different options, a wh and dh specific inquisitor, and of course the many special characters.

Storm troopers would of course be the standard troops (updated to be like the new guard) then like the chaos codex you'd have the over priced special troops like gk's and sob. all the special other units would then be spread out in fa, elistes and hs.

Well thats how a sane person would do it?!?! (but then again gw is run by the money hungry insane)


----------



## Dagmire

Spoke to GW on the phone asking why i could not but a codex anymore and was told .....
"we belive the codex is having an update and will realeased this year, anymore then that we dont know"

Hummmmm


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> august is 40k


Good to hear, thanks :biggrin:
Hopefully the next Incoming! will be sooner rather than later and we'll finally know what's what.

Subtlejoe: If IST make it into the codex, I seriously hope that they are made different from the regular ST. Because regular ST are terrible and overpriced.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I want Armour-Piercing Shotguns...AP4 or so...


----------



## MaidenManiac

Bindi Baji said:


> august is 40k


Soooo, they will manage to release 4 40k codices this year then, spiffy:biggrin:


----------



## Underground Heretic

Ladies and gentlemen, I noticed an oddity on the GW North America site. Under the troops and fast attack sections of the Daemonhunters, the five model box of grey knights is listed as "No longer available." While the nemisis sword justicar model is "expected to despatch in two to three weeks," the other blisters are listed under the standard "Usually ships within 24 hours." Food for thought, but is this an isolated incident?


----------



## MaidenManiac

Underground Heretic said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I noticed an oddity on the GW North America site. Under the troops and fast attack sections of the Daemonhunters, the five model box of grey knights is listed as "No longer available." While the nemisis sword justicar model is "expected to despatch in two to three weeks," the other blisters are listed under the standard "Usually ships within 24 hours." Food for thought, but is this an isolated incident?


It is obvious that they are on the way. This might be more food for the August 40k release for sure 

Im quite sure that the US stock on Tyranids ran out before the English did prior to the Tyranid release this January. Folks did similar observations regarding the battalion boxes if I recall it correctly...


----------



## cwcuran45

Ok this isn't vastly different or anything new, but I found this on Librarium Online by a user named dinodeanpostcat:

"As a die hard pure Grey Knight player I decided to go to Warhammer World this weekend to see how much stuff they had on their shelves. I figured it would be a good place to start, if their 'flagship' store doesn't have much then it might mean something.

Anyway.

They only had two boxes of Terminators and that's it.

Having been collared by the blue-shirt and the inevitable 'what do you play?' question I answered 'pure Grey Knights'. Well that took him back a bit! I then proceeded to mourn the fact that there was virtually nothing for me to buy and suggested that may be because they would be phased out soon (tearful eye-all part of the act).

Nope, he replied, they are not being phased out. I then perked up a bit and suggested that as PAGK had been gone for a while in a box set and Terminators were still around they wouldn't be remaking Terminators. Don't count on it he suggested, I have seen the concept art and they look amazing.

Well take it or leave it. "

Much like the OP said, I found it interesting that Warhammer World didn't have much GK in stock.

Here's the link for reference: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/daemonhunters/193341-new-codex-visit-warhammer-world.html


----------



## Vhalyar

That's pretty nice, kind of goes along with what we know.

Speaking of interesting things, here's this little blurb from the DE thread @Warseer:



Benjambles said:


> Well.. i spoke to Jervis at Salute today and whe i mentioned i was a dark eldar player he had a little grin and then said "Well your going to be happy, but not for a little while yet. But when you do see them, they'll blow your socks off"
> 
> I guess that kind of puts them nearer to the october timeslot that was suggested for them.


Delicious.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Vhalyar said:


> That's pretty nice, kind of goes along with what we know.
> 
> Speaking of interesting things, here's this little blurb from the DE thread @Warseer:
> 
> 
> 
> Jervis stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delicious.
Click to expand...

In fairness, all that indicates is that it almost certainly isn't next.

I still think it'll be after Necrons and GKs,m possibly after BTs.


----------



## Vhalyar

That was the point. If DE are not coming 'for a little while yet', then that reinforces GK having the August slot. :biggrin:

In other news, I asked Maelstrom why they barely had any Daemonhunters products in stock.


> Hi There,
> 
> The entire range usually starts disappearing when Games Workshop are re-releasing an army...... Hopefully we are right with this and we have them back soon!


So GW isn't selling them anymore stock.

Edit: The War Store too.



> GW is reducing the codes in the Grey Hunters and Sisters of Battle sections, new Codex and models are expected in the fall


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> In other news, I asked Maelstrom why they barely had any Daemonhunters products in stock.
> 
> So GW isn't selling them anymore stock.
> 
> Edit: The War Store too.


maelstrom and the war store have got their info from forums and/ or other fans,
they are unlikely to know more then that as GW won't answer questions from stockists regarding future ranges until releases are imminent, unfortunately


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive been searching around and cant seem to come up with any new rumours. Everything Ive found has been posted here already. 

Is this a sign that we might be nearing a release or the other way around?
From what I read we should get to know which codex is next within a week or two.
Im guessing DE because we had BA last but it could be GK if they see the eldar tank as a xeno release.


----------



## boreas

Well, there was this by B&C's Armoured Wing (who's pretty reliable):



> Whilst in the warhammer world store ove the weekend Phoenix Knight was chatting to one of the blueshirts and the conversation got onto the GK's withdrawal from the shelves. Unsurprisingly there was the 'speculation' that GK's are coming... but the most interseting element from my perspective is that the staff have been told to take ALL GK's off the shelves and BIN THEM!!! Seriously, any and all GK's that haven't already been sold are going to be thrown, discarded, destroyed...


Not much, but I see rumors converging towards GKs (ok, I'm biased!!!)

Phil


----------



## cwcuran45

MCC... Have you by chance added the "all GK's to lose power armour and receive artificer armour" tidbit to your rumour roundup?

Right now I have pretty high hopes that GK are next up. If for no other reason than the DE codex is still available.


----------



## cwcuran45

Double Post!

This is really nothing new, but at least it shows that DPA is still convinced GK are coming:

"My visions have been painful to endure of late, mainly due to the nature of their content, damned shiny warriors of that shrivled up husk "

From the spearhead thread... http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251069&page=28


----------



## Vhalyar

Good find!

He later posted the following:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> More a minor irritant than anything else but they have a habit of blocking my warpsight with there gods damned shinyness


Edit:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> The denzins of Comorragh will have to stay in the shadows for just a little while longer i'm afraid :


Looking rather good for Grey Knights.


----------



## mahavira

Don't know if this is new or relevant, but Acro-Flagellants are no longer available through the GW Canada site.


----------



## boreas

Ay, caramba... Waaagh_Gonads (from Dakka Dakka) claims to have seen assembled DE warriors. Pictures will be presented in June before the August release...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292253.page

If any army should be released before GKs, it's, in all fairness, DE. Still, I want my shiny guys!!!

Phil


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> Ay, caramba... Waaagh_Gonads (from Dakka Dakka) claims to have seen assembled DE warriors. Pictures will be presented in June before the August release...
> 
> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/292253.page
> 
> If any army should be released before GKs, it's, in all fairness, DE. Still, I want my shiny guys!!!
> 
> Phil


hmm, sounds interesting, if DE were next I would be happy to have my previous statement proved wrong as for all their whingeing and whining  DE players definately deserve an update, however as I understand GK and DE are still at an even level on the production scale..........
either way GK fans "should" be happy by the end of the year...........

disclaimer:
when I say "should" I comprehend the fact that a large section of fandom enjoy being unhappy with whatever is released


----------



## Vhalyar

DPA seems convinced that DE will have to wait a little longer, so I'm still betting on GK next


----------



## Logyn

It seems to me that there are alot of conflicting opinions on when each codex is coming. DPA has been right on the money in the past, and that alone makes me think he is more reliable than a poster on Dakka who claims to have seen assembled DE models (probably is true) and says they're coming next (could be very untrue).

We should know for sure soon enough, but does anyone know exactly when GW will announce it? (do they usually do it 3 months before hand to the week? or are they a little less predictable?)


----------



## Vhalyar

Granted, he's a mod, so I doubt he'd try to bullshit us about having seen the DE Warriors. On the other hand, this:



> I'd say pics will appear Juneish 2 issues prior to their release in August.


Is pure speculation on his part. Hence why I'm more inclined to believe DPA on the release issue. As for an announcement, it's usually around the 3 months mark, but it's fairly loose. This is also the same for the rumor floodgates.

Edit: reds8n on Gonad's 'DE in August' speculation....


reds8n said:


> .. I don't think Dr. GOnads is talking about an August release for what it's worth.





reds8n said:


> Terminus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I hope they aren't coming out in August, that's supposed to be the GK's time.
> 
> 
> 
> ..hmm... doubt it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Gonads usually has a good grasp of what is going on, that said, I still think the company is in the process of finalizing the release order.

Gonads saw the warriors, of that I have little doubt, but that doesn't mean GK aren't further along, or that one or the other will be released first.

Harry didn't know the order as of 2-3 weeks ago, Gonads seems to think its DE, but DPA's visions are fully of shiny servants of the emperor.

Everything is still in the air from what I can see, however, there are much stronger rumors on specifics from the DE side of things.

Even down to weapon descriptions for the warriors.

I think both are probably ready for a first wave release, and now they are just waiting on the marketing department to make the final decisions.


----------



## mahavira

If they haven't decided which to release yet, they really jumped the gun on pulling the DH/WH codices, the Grey Knights in Power Armor and Acro Flagellants. In Canada at least everything for DE is still available (though you'll wait 6-7 weeks for a Talos!). While I would hope that DE are soon(we players of neglected factions need to stick together), the public actions of GW suggests that it will be an inquisition army (either grey knights or a combined inquisition) next. Then again, you can still buy the WHFB 7th edition rulebook off the canadian site and they have announced the release date for 8th edition, so you can't draw too much from what is or is not on the website...


----------



## Blue Liger

All I can say is in AUS GK and DE models are still on shelves as well as the codex for both armies, maybe GW want people to be guessing building more excitement and hopefully enticing more buyers in by having 2 near complete new releases for old armies.

In regards for 40k 6th edition I would love to see GK take the spot of the regular SM they use for the imperium side in the starter set, I mean with fantasy they change the teams in the box sets each time why not alter sales this way by making thenew poster boy GK's (they are still SM so not to give Jervis a massive heart attack but may prove other armies do sell).


----------



## Bindi Baji

the main reason for certain SOB/GK models vanishing = low stock in some areas coupled with the fact no more will be moulded


----------



## mahavira

Bindi Baji said:


> the main reason for certain SOB/GK models vanishing = low stock in some areas coupled with the fact no more will be moulded


I have no difficulty believing that re: Acro Flagellants - if you want any at all, 1 box is more than enough, but it's harder to believe that they would not make more grey knights in power armor if a new set wasn't due out very soon - they're the core building block of the Daemonhunters/GK army. In any event, the codex is the stronger signal: the DH/WH codices are not just "This item is no longer available", they are no longer even listed.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/listProducts.jsp?catId=cat1140001

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/listProducts.jsp?catId=cat180001

The entire DE line, from codex the codex to the battle force to individual units or special characters is still available. I can't comment on what people who have an "in" have or have not seen or been told, but the behvior of the company that can be externally observed suggests that DE will be later than the Grey Knights or Combined Inquisition Codex (whichever is happening).


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> but it's harder to believe that they would not make more grey knights in power armor if a new set wasn't due out very soon


unless they were going to be getting new plastic kits that is..........


----------



## mahavira

Bindi Baji said:


> unless they were going to be getting new plastic kits that is..........


Precisely my thought.


----------



## Vhalyar

Purge the Heretic said:


> I think both are probably ready for a first wave release, and now they are just waiting on the marketing department to make the final decisions.


That's pretty much how it seems, there's no other way to explain why at this point we are still getting conflicting reports. Plus Harry just reiterated again today that he has no idea when exactly DE (and thus GK) are supposed to come out.

I'm going to shelve my enthusiasm until the official word from GW, the constant back and forth is rather silly at this point.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> That's pretty much how it seems, there's no other way to explain why at this point we are still getting conflicting reports. Plus Harry just reiterated again today that he has no idea when exactly DE (and thus GK) are supposed to come out.
> 
> I'm going to shelve my enthusiasm until the official word from GW, the constant back and forth is rather silly at this point.


indeed, I believe there is precedence for this and having two releases prepped for approx the same time would mean finding any late problems in one release would mean that the other could take it's place


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Bombshell from Harry:

Whatever Waaaugh Gonads saw, they were NOT from the new DE Warriors sprue,

source:
about halfway down the page


> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/292253.page#top


He later posted on warseer confirming this came from him.


----------



## boreas

Holy Moly! This is turning into a regular soap!

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Edit:


Harry said:


> silverstu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope- he is saying there is a new dark eldar warrior sprue- but these models didn't come from it.
> Either test/prototype sculpts[possible if they relate to the illustration], maybe a different DE option.. or maybe we need more pie on offer...
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I was saying.
Click to expand...

There we have it. Doesn't change anything for GKs


----------



## superwill

Should be taken with a grain of salt, but this surely counts as a rumour:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257069


----------



## Necrosis

superwill said:


> Should be taken with a grain of salt, but this surely counts as a rumour:
> 
> http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257069


The only thing that makes me give this rumor any credit is that it comes out at the same time as death watch rpg if it is true.


----------



## Vhalyar

Necrosis said:


> The only thing that makes me give this rumor any credit is that it comes out at the same time as death watch rpg if it is true.


It also means someone's bullshitting us due to contradictions :biggrin:
The question is, who?

I'm inclined to think it's CoolKidRoc since Jervis said that the Inquisition would be downplayed. Well whatever, maybe we'll find out this week. Or maybe not, the guy who said we would has backpedaled so fast he nearly winked out of existence.


----------



## superwill

Vhalyar said:


> It also means someone's bullshitting us due to contradictions :biggrin:
> The question is, who?
> 
> I'm inclined to think it's CoolKidRoc since Jervis said that the Inquisition would be downplayed.


I actually think CoolKidRoc sounds fairly legit, and not as contradictory as you suggest. All three ordos being combined and shoved into a dex with alot of focus on GK still seems like downplaying to me...


----------



## Vhalyar

It's not really downplaying if they are covering all three Ordos and their Inquisitors though. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## superwill

Vhalyar said:


> It's not really downplaying if they are covering all three Ordos and their Inquisitors though. But that's just my opinion.


Well, (hypothetically of course) instead of the ordos getting 2 dexes they would now only get half a dex to share, and even then be even more cramped by xenos hunters. In my opinion that would be downplaying: 2 ordos in 2 dexes --> 3 ordos in 0.5 dexes. But you're entitled to your opinion too 

I guess all I'm getting at is that if Jervis is actually right in saying they will be downplayed, that actually doesn't clearly, decisively prove these rumours wrong at all, as you seem to be suggesting. It could just as easily support them.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Jervis actually said at gamesday 08 that the idea of a combined inquisition codex was "pure fanwank", 
you will find that others on this forum and warseer witnessed him saying that.

now I wasn't around when he spoke about it at gamesday 08 but I have heard about it from numerous people I trust, what I did hear was him talking about it last year "it ain't gonna happen" - his words, not mine.

Plus harry, brimstone and a fair few others have said the same.


----------



## rodmillard

Unless ... 

Could we be looking at a single Inquisitor choice that is versatile enough to represent any of the 3 ordos, depending on what upgrades you take? It would downplay the =I= element while keeping the players happy. 

Equally, I could see a generic =I= HQ, along with special characters for Heresius, Malleus, and Xenos who grant special rules to Stormtroopers in the army, a bit like regular SM special characters.


----------



## Necrosis

Bindi Baji said:


> Jervis actually said at gamesday 08 that the idea of a combined inquisition codex was "pure fanwank",
> you will find that others on this forum and warseer witnessed him saying that.
> 
> now I wasn't around when he spoke about it at gamesday 08 but I have heard about it from numerous people I trust, what I did hear was him talking about it last year "it ain't gonna happen" - his words, not mine.
> 
> Plus harry, brimstone and a fair few others have said the same.


It depends on what they meant. They could have easily meant we will not be combining the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights together. In which case this rumor is still valid.


----------



## Vhalyar

Well, that rumor has been rendered moot:



Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> *Prepares the Planet Killer's Cyclonic NACL Torpeodes for thread purification*


Asa reference, that's nearly the exact same thing he said in the DE April's Fools thread.

He later added:


Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Nothing I say is without reason, the fact I have my hand hovering over the torpedo launch button on this thread should not be construed as me saying the GK are not coming.





Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> Point 5 is accurate


Point 5 being: "5. Sisters will not be present in the Dex, but will have there own Codex at a later time."


----------



## wickedchild

Let's hope there are 2 dexes (GK and WH), just so we end up with more fluff and unit descriptions pages. 

I like Rodmillard's concept about having some special characters who would give some special rules to Inquisitionnal Stormtroopers (or other units they are attached to) :grin:


----------



## Vhalyar

I forgot to post this here too... tidbits from the SA 40k thread:



Anphrax said:


> Dark Eldar are being pushed back to 2011 and Inquisition is coming out this year instead.
> 
> You heard it from me first. The manager's meeting in Vegas was a lot of fun!





WhiteManCometh said:


> I've gotten some word about it from a reliable person.
> Inquisition codex will be out before the Dark Eldar, and you can expect to see those pointy ears start of 2011.


I know there's at least one regular poster there who worked for GW, so I'm giving these the benefits of doubt.

Plus, today's news on BOLS says the same thing.


----------



## Shandathe

wickedchild said:


> Let's hope there are 2 dexes (GK and WH), just so we end up with more fluff and unit descriptions pages.


I'm hoping for DH and SoB instead  Get these damn Inquisitors out of my Ecclesiarchy...

At least one of them arriving before the Dark Eldar sounds like good news to me, either way.


----------



## Creon

More get those damn inquisitors out of those Marine Armies! I hope the Mystics will be limited to DH nowadays!


----------



## hungryugolino

If they remove the ally rules, I will be very, very upset. Ditto for the upgrades to enemy armies.

Seriously, what's with this trend? The Necron, Daemonhunter, and Witchhunter codexes had lots of interesting bits in them. Necrons had scenario lists, traits for opponents, and the like. Daemonhunters gave reasons for fights, scenarios, and upgrades for the enemy leader for a fluffy match. Witchhunters had the same, with rules for side units like mutant mobs, traitor guard, and even the arbites.

GW needs to put that kind of thing in the new dexes, because overpowered units and awful fluff do not a good codex make.


----------



## mahavira

Shandathe said:


> I'm hoping for DH and SoB instead  Get these damn Inquisitors out of my Ecclesiarchy...
> 
> At least one of them arriving before the Dark Eldar sounds like good news to me, either way.


No, get those damn Ecclesiarchs out of the chamber militant of Ordo Hereticus - their presence on the battlefield is in contravention of the Decree Passive. Either that or institute a "wicker man" rule: if a priest is attached to a unit with a meltagun, multimelta, inferno pistol, flamer, or heavy flamer, the priest may 'sacrifice himself' to give the army another faith point. Any suggestion that this martyrdom is less than fully voluntary or fuelled by resentment of the ways in which he cripples SoB units he's attached to is heresy, as is any suggestion that his presence in the army was solely for the purpose of adding Acro Flagellants or Penitent Engines. Inquiries as to why priests accompanying Adepta Sororitas universally choose such self sacrifice reveal a lack of faith, and probable heresy.


----------



## Vhalyar

Is this the first solid piece of information outside of what Harry has said?! Because damn, that looks awesome.
I really want to know what consecrate does... a defensive power?


Sorry, I made that one up! 
Please don't hurt me.


----------



## Zenzi

lol, nice, you had me fooled for a second or 2.


----------



## Shandathe

Mahavira, I like the way you think... :biggrin:


----------



## rasolyo

mahavira said:


> ...the priest may 'sacrifice himself' to give the army another faith point.


Remove the quotes over 'sacrifice himself'. If anything, participating members of the diocese should offer themselves to act as literal Shields of Faith in the event of incoming bolter fire/power weapon/psychic attack so as to expedite the Emperor's will.

The Ecclesiarchy has been tried and found wanting.

Ave Imperator!


----------



## Khorothis

The Sisters don't need anything else other than Sisters and a healthy amount of Holy Promethium to get any job done. Ever read Daemonifuge? Ephrael kicks so much ass with such irresistable force that it makes you wonder if shes the wife of Chuck Norris or something. 
Though I did want to have some GKs with them, to add some more awesome to the army, but hey, what the girls can't turn to cinders they'll WTFPWN with FAITH IN ALL CAPS. :laugh:


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

been awile since i've looked at this thread so i may be repeating old thoughts;

"PLASTIC" STORMTROOPERS

i have a few theories/ideas/thoughts, to why GW maybe releasing them with the GK codex;
1) they are a staple choice in the codex and a plastic set could sell more
2) IG armies who want their troops to have respirators, and have been buying FW conversion packs, can use these plastics
3) the stormtroopers are often used to model IG Veterans, as the points for STs are up there
4) plastics of these iconic models mean money for GW

if C:GK and C:WH get released STs will sell like wild fire, and with the rumours of the Stormraven coming with the GKs, then we may just see plastic STs on the table as well

my thoughts anywho
Grish


----------



## rasolyo

Khorothis said:


> The Sisters don't need anything else other than Sisters and a healthy amount of Holy Promethium to get any job done. Ever read Daemonifuge?


Ugh, I've been finding ways to get this without having to resort to paying for shipping. It sounds like I won't be disappointed with Daemonifuge as I have been with Faith and Fire.

James Swallow, the Adepta Sororitas deserve better than what you've given them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Daemonifuge was really awesome but the problem is it was never completed to my knowledge.

From what I gather it was released as short strips in some 40k magazine and then later released in small booklets. We have 3 of the small booklets at our local club but put together they are only about 1/4th of the story so far. I dont know if its even possible to get the whole lot anymore, I had to download the series to be able to read the later parts. I dont know how long the series is in its entirety but from what I have found the series was stopped just as Stern was to do battle with the Culexus assassin. Basically the cliffhanger before the next part. I have not been able to find any continuation after that.

Compared to Faith and Fire it was allot better.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Redemption-Corps.html
Redemption Corps seems to have some Battle Sisters in it, Im going to buy it once I have read my current HH books and the GK Omnibus. Im hoping it will be good but I believe the SoB are only side characters or some such but I could be wrong.
If anyone has read the book plz let us know if u liked it.


----------



## mahavira

They also feature a bit part in Duty Calls, though it is such a one sidedly negative piece I suspect Sandy Mitchell of Heresy. It's actually a little surprising they haven't featured in any of the Gaunt's Ghosts books: you'd think Ordo Hereticus would be all over the Sabbat Crusade and Battle Sisters would be part of major offensives to reclaim shrine worlds, but then there are a grand total of 3 or 4 chaos marines and no loyalist marines in the entire series also.


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, there are marines in there. They're just never on-screen with Tanith. The closest they come is seeing them in the distance or as part of a massive battle like Balhaut.

And Duty Calls shows Sisters as fanatics who have a close relationship with the Inquisition and sometimes go overboard with the faith. Don't see the problem.


----------



## Vhalyar

Stickmonkey is back in business.



Stickmonkey said:


> First, I dont know when or if any codex will be out, And I dont know what will be in it. It's been nearly 5 mo since I saw any of the GK stuff and almost a year since some of the first items...
> 
> But, judging from the mockups we saw last year and early this, *I'd be looking for PsyCannon options on most standard marine vehicles, plus on the SR.*
> 
> *We did see printed 3D model concepts for PA GK on jetbikes. *The handwritten text on the prints we saw said "Scouts" The jetbikes looked very similar to Master of the Ravenwing, but without the belly plasma gun.
> 
> I'd personally also expect a *generic librarian dread. With GK/BA/??? bits*.
> 
> That's about all I can offer for rumors now. I know there are still some surprises in store for everyone when a codex does come out.





Stickmonkey said:


> Not so much loose, as I haven't found any corroboration, we saw the 3D mockups, so I know that it went beyond the artistic mockups, but I also saw the 3D mockups for a few IG and Nid items that never saw light of day in the codex. For better or worse some things dont make the cut.
> 
> *That said, the conversations about the JB seeemed to indicate it was very likely, so I truly hope it makes it.*
> 
> As far as other rumors...
> There was some artistic sketches of a GK tank that I've never seen before. It was similar to a LR, so could be just a variant, but had a vindicator looking cannon. The cannon barrel extended down one side of the tank internal body, unlike the vindicator where its just a stub of a barrel, this was longer fixed looking barrel. There was no Assault door on the front of the tank, but it did have the LR style door and sponson on the side. Sponson had Plasma cannon in it. I say it was GK as it had GK heraldry in the art, and a PAGK drawn next to it like a scale reference. *I know there is a rumored similar DA siege LR in fluff and I think there was a Apoc datasheet for it.*
> *
> There was also a speeder with an enclosed cockpit. *Looked like a 1 man scout vehicle, style was similar to the FW Tempest, but the wings swept forward and were longer and cockpit was open style like the Valk, not the armored cockpit of the FW model. It was armed w/ what looked like TL punisher cannons...but they could have been assault cannons. The art made them look much more like the PC than AC. Size wise it was about the same as the normal landspeeder.
> 
> *There was a Dread art with radically different flamer arm, could be a flamestorm arm. And a force weapon.* The body of the dread was similar to standard dreads. *force weapon looked like a oversized GK NFW halberd, but without the spike.*
> 
> *There was art of a GK chaplain with the skull mask in PA. Had a NFW rather than Crozius.*
> 
> Art of Brother Captain Stern and retinue
> 
> Art of a *GK Terminator Libby.*
> 
> Art of a couple Justicars that could be named characters or just upgrade models.
> 
> *And a nice piece with a host of GK battling what could only be the rumored Necron MC from descriptions given here by others.*
> *
> One note is in none of the stuff we saw was there a single Jump pack.* I think this falls in with the fluff of them using Teleportation in many more troops.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'm mentioned much of this in passing here before though...though maybe not as publically. Regardless, I'm confident now I can pass it along. Take it for what it is, and remember no matter who says what it's rumor until we see the models.


The Land Raider he's talking about is the Ares, which is pretty neat.


----------



## TheKingElessar

hungryugolino said:


> If they remove the ally rules, I will be very, very upset. Ditto for the upgrades to enemy armies.
> 
> Seriously, what's with this trend? The Necron, Daemonhunter, and Witchhunter codexes had lots of interesting bits in them. Necrons had scenario lists, traits for opponents, and the like. Daemonhunters gave reasons for fights, scenarios, and upgrades for the enemy leader for a fluffy match. Witchhunters had the same, with rules for side units like mutant mobs, traitor guard, and even the arbites.
> 
> GW needs to put that kind of thing in the new dexes, because overpowered units and awful fluff do not a good codex make.


Awful, in YOUR opinion. Overpowered, in YOUR opinion. k:

In MY opinion, the extra garbage in those books was exactly that.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

personally, im another person who would miss the extra bits/units/armylists. i know they wont be back, but come on, the ability to build 4 completely different army types(discounting mech/footslogging) from one dex was immense. add in the psychic apocalypse stuff for the enemy commander for more of a hook when fighting a battle, and its all gravy. but on the other hand, if these go, it means more room for units in a SoB army. i guess it all comes down to whether you like the RP style of play, or just a straight up test of skills. im the former, but it wont stop me


----------



## superwill

There's been alot on the last few pages that has nothing to do with rumours. Maybe a seperate thread can be made for what people don't like about new codexes, and discussing off-topic books? Not meaning to be naggy, but there's a difference between the odd off-topic post and whole pages with only one or two on topic comments.

Those stickymonkey comments are great, Vhalyar have you got any other info on the Ares you could share? Thanks for that info mate.


----------



## Vhalyar

Yeah, the discussion is driving the topic.. somewhat off topic 

More from Stickmonkey:



Stickmonkey said:


> Nope, Ares is close, but design is different. the main gun actually runs through the left side of the body about 3/4 of the length. but exposed on top.
> 
> 
> Definitely not a landspeeder. The wings sweep forward and at the body of the vehicle were nearly the length of it. Like the Valk wings. single cockpit forward, but with the landspeeder front. cannons slung at shoulder of wing, but cowled to body. 2 exhaust trails from center rear.





Stickmonkey said:


> Valdor is the same idea, yes. But in a LR body, and a much more cannon-y cannon. OF course, its art, so who knows.
> 
> Those T-hawks in the SW book look much to small and off shape to be T-hawks, but I'm pretty sure they are not StormRavens...


So it's not exactly a classic Land Raider Ares (click here for info on it).
The cannon placement and length ressembles the Valdor's but on a LR chassis.
Finally, that landspeeder sounds a hybrid between a FW Lightning and the standard speeder.

Some pretty cool stuff... except when it comes to LR and LS variants, you just know that every new Marine codex will also get them.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Vhalyar said:


> Some pretty cool stuff... except when it comes to LR and LS variants, you just know that every new Marine codex will also get them.


Not necessarily. We currently have variant Dreadnoughts and Predators...plus, of course, the Master of the Ravenwing has a unique LS variant. No reason this could not be extended to GKs getting funky new stuff that stays unique.


----------



## Shandathe

mahavira said:


> They also feature a bit part in Duty Calls, though it is such a one sidedly negative piece I suspect Sandy Mitchell of Heresy.


He redeems himself somewhat with Cain's Last Stand, where Celestian Julien and her squad of novitiates give a pretty good showing. Including saving Cain's bacon on at least one occasion I can remember


----------



## Vhalyar

TheKingElessar said:


> Not necessarily. We currently have variant Dreadnoughts and Predators...plus, of course, the Master of the Ravenwing has a unique LS variant. No reason this could not be extended to GKs getting funky new stuff that stays unique.


I sure hope so, because it's already pretty certain that every marine in the future is going to be zipping around in a Stormraven.

On the flip side, that 'landspeeder' is sounding pretty hot. I personally hate the speeders with an open top, so something more akin to a Lightning... :biggrin:


----------



## hungryugolino

They'd better have rules for Psyker dread and allies...

It's ridiculous that the pretty-boy, blood-drop encrusted Blood Angels get librarian dreads but the chapter with Librarians as their "hat, the Blood Ravens, can't use them...


----------



## Vhalyar

How is it ridiculous when the concept was introduced in a codex that _just_ came out while the Daemonhunters are years old and from a design period where less was more. That's awfully premature, especially since we don't even know what will be in the new codex.


----------



## Dagmire

if any one heard the latest 40K radio then there are some pretty nasty rumours.
SoB getting a PDF update......
DH codex re written as the models were to powerful and wouldn't sell loads. They were balnced but cost loads of points so i hear they they nerfed them and reduced the points cost so people bought more


----------



## Vhalyar

Can't say I know much about 40k Radio. Are they actually reliable, or do they just spout off anything they hear as rumors?


----------



## Shandathe

I'm going to be clinging to the hope that at least the SoB PDF rumour is false. After all, it'd be silly to do a PDF as they can't SELL one... Still, an update is badly needed... urgh...

Please Emperor I don't wanna be reduced to a mere handful of pages in a forgotten White Dwarf like the Blood Angels were >_< *whimpers*


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Are they actually reliable


slightly more reliable then a cardboard based nuclear shelter


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> slightly more reliable then a cardboard based nuclear shelter


Ever since the government caught on to aluminum foil as a control-wave repellent, I've replaced it with cardboard to great effect. So what you are telling me is that they are just as reliable as cardboard, huh? Good to know!



So they are shit, thank god. I would cry girly tears for my precious plastic army if they were true


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Ever since the government caught on to aluminum foil as a control-wave repellent, I've replaced it with cardboard to great effect. So what you are telling me is that they are just as reliable as cardboard, huh? Good to know!


tin foil hats ftw, but only when used in conjunction with x-ray specs :grin:


----------



## rodmillard

Away from this discussion...

Has anyone else noticed that the ad for Imperial Armour: Apocalypse 2 in the latest White Dwarf has the book open at the =I= datasheets (GK Redeemer legendary vehicle and SoB Exorcist formation - can't remember the name of the unit)

Could this be GW doing their classic "hiding in plain sight" clue to a forthcoming release, or am I reading too much into it? It certainly seems counterproductive to drum up interest in armies that are being pulled from the shelves at a rapid rate of knots - if we weren't going to see =I= any time soon I would expect them to showcase some of the new Ork vehicles or something...

That said, while on one level it makes sense to plug FW models that are going to be made official (even if the redeemer we get in the codex doesn't have the same snacky goodness as the FW rules) if the GK redeemer does become tournament legal that conversion kit will fly off the shelves. OTOH it doesn't make much sense from FW's perspective to advertise a book using rules that will soon be published elsewhere.


----------



## Necrosis

rodmillard said:


> Away from this discussion...
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that the ad for Imperial Armour: Apocalypse 2 in the latest White Dwarf has the book open at the =I= datasheets (GK Redeemer legendary vehicle and SoB Exorcist formation - can't remember the name of the unit)
> 
> Could this be GW doing their classic "hiding in plain sight" clue to a forthcoming release, or am I reading too much into it? It certainly seems counterproductive to drum up interest in armies that are being pulled from the shelves at a rapid rate of knots - if we weren't going to see =I= any time soon I would expect them to showcase some of the new Ork vehicles or something...
> 
> That said, while on one level it makes sense to plug FW models that are going to be made official (even if the redeemer we get in the codex doesn't have the same snacky goodness as the FW rules) if the GK redeemer does become tournament legal that conversion kit will fly off the shelves. OTOH it doesn't make much sense from FW's perspective to advertise a book using rules that will soon be published elsewhere.


Well GW might be "play testing" the GK redeemer. I know it's shocking, gw actually play testing. Sisters of Battle also had a 2nd formation in Apoc 2 that increase the strenght of all flamers and heavy flamers. Also in a white dwarf article GW release a bunch of stargems (sp?) for each race, including one for Grey Knights (not Daemon Hunters) and one for sisters of battle (not Witch Hunters).

This and the Apoc 2 may not seem as much but this is a huge increase in attention for these two armies.


----------



## DonFer

Everytime I read rumors posted by Vahlyar I start drooling like a dog with a Steak.:grin: 

I think that the stuff we are hearing now pretty much points to the GK entering the arena of the "must-play" armies. I reckon this new overhaul to the dex is most necessary to make the DH army a winner.


----------



## GrizBe

Something of a confirmation of whats already being booted about, but also with an interesting nugget...

Went into my local GW store today, they've just changed there opening hours to include wednesdays whereas they used to be closed today... They had a new manager in store... Trying my luck with him since the usual guy wouldn't even tell you that spearhead was out next month he was that tight lipped, I asked the new guy 'So do you know anything about the Demonhunters, Grey Knights or Inquisition?'

His reply was:

'I don't know much other then they're comming out very soon, and the Stormraven will be comming out with them. Plus, I know that the plastic Grey Knights in Power Armour and Terminator Armour are done, so they'll be out soon too.'

I'm taking that as an we're expecting to see GK's in the next few months, and they're going to defiantely have a Stormraven option seeming that I never mentioned it to him.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I am less then confident that we'll see the stormraven released for the GK initial wave, I am led to believe the stormraven will see a release alongside the BA second wave


----------



## GrizBe

The manager seemed pretty confident attaching the Stormraven to the GK's release, so I'm guessing it'll see the light of day sooner rather then later.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Judging on personal experience GW store managers on the whole tend to know pretty much as much as anyone else (bugger all!) I would take anything they have to say with a huge pinch of salt. They are just as much victims of the rumour mill as we are they just don't like to admit it.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> The manager seemed pretty confident attaching the Stormraven to the GK's release, so I'm guessing it'll see the light of day sooner rather then later.


it's extremely unlikely that a manager would know much, and if he were in a position to know for sure then it's even more unlikely he would say anything.

That said, it's not unthinkable that the stormraven could be out for the 1st wave, just unlikely


----------



## DonFer

I have to say that I think that the Codex should hit the shelves first before any plastic GK models. This will encourage people to buy the new models and build new armies. 
But any rumors about the dex aren't too encouraging, mostly because of the release date (4thQ 2010 or 2011).


----------



## Shandathe

I'd expect the codex and the new models to hit at about the same time, with the models no more than a month after the codex at worst. 

The one model (set) I'm hoping to get here BEFORE a codex is plastic Battle Sister squads, as (unless you're willing to pay through the nose for blisters) our basic troop type - which coincidentally also doubles as filler for Celestians, Dominion, AND Retributor squads, ie. *the entire frigging non-vehicle army* - has been out of stock for 3 months already now.


----------



## Vhalyar

By the way BB, did you hear anything about the stuff Stickmonkey posted?


----------



## GrizBe

Seems that store managers and staff, around the UK at least, are starting to give 'canned' responses to questions you ask them about anything =I= or GK related.

Seems to me if they're being told what to say, they've got something to hide...


----------



## Dagmire

I hear Matt Ward has written the codex for GN.
Has he done anything else? I dont think i know who he is.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Codexes Space Marines and Blood Angels in the current editions.


----------



## Dagmire

oooh cool. hope he does a good job.


----------



## hungryugolino

That idiot's in charge of the dex? Feth.

We can expect to say goodbye to decent fluff, the allies rules, and the more interesting special characters. 

This is the bluie-fanboy and guy who came up with Blood Angels partying with Necrons. Hard to imagine how you could trash the Inquisition fluff, but he'll doubtless find a way.

Joy.


----------



## Logyn

I thought I heard early on that it was Phil Kelly doing Grey Knights?

And Matt Ward wrote the latest release... Do the codex authors do two in a row?


----------



## GrizBe

I've heard it was meant to be Phil Kelly, having heard from several different sources...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> By the way BB, did you hear anything about the stuff Stickmonkey posted?



just nipped back to actually properly read his comments  (better late then never)

Stickmonkeys stuff seems to be quite contradictory and confusing - but there are too many shiny nuggets of truth in there for it to be rubbish,
I suspect the wrong information is from him attempting to join the dots (something I have admitted myself on a few occassions)

Sadly I don't hear too much model wise (at least consistently),
the stormraven is one of the only things i'm sure of being in there, I am also aware of plastic GK's being a reality, but these are both things I mentioned a fair while ago and nothing new


----------



## Vhalyar

Ah that's interesting :grin:
He just recently added a few details to what he said:


Stickmonkey said:


> Dont hold me to this. This is purely me pumping a less than perfect source for info, and I cannot vet it...
> 
> The LS variant is a marine vehicle, but has only BS 3. Fast skimmer. AV 10 all. Cannon is TL Heavy6 S5 AP4 24" (it cant fire it when moving fast...) also has a hvy bolter turret and can hold 2 missiles...(missiles might replace cannons as options)...I think the same as the base Valk missiles. Vehicle also has Teleport homer. scout rule. unknown points.
> 
> Real news is the vehicle has not gone into model stage. (thus if it makes the codex and the codex is sooner than later dont expect it)
> 
> Basically it's probably a unicorn now. (ie. a mythical creature)


As for Matt Ward, dear god please keep him away from the codex. I think his work is bland and uninspired. Kelly may not be perfect either, but at least his armies are fun, fluffy and choke full of neat options.


----------



## TheKingElessar

hungryugolino said:


> That idiot's in charge of the dex? Feth.
> 
> We can expect to say goodbye to decent fluff, the allies rules, and the more interesting special characters.
> 
> This is the bluie-fanboy and guy who came up with Blood Angels partying with Necrons. Hard to imagine how you could trash the Inquisition fluff, but he'll doubtless find a way.
> 
> Joy.


Obviously, it's entirely subjective, like all the fluff actually is (what with it being the property of GW, even what you write yourself, they can change whatever they want, and you may not like it, but do have to accept it, lol) - but I loved the (FINALLY BEGINNING) expansion of the Necrons from the mindless automatons of yore. Character Development is ALWAYS a positive step, even if poorly handled. (I don't think it was, ofc.)

As for the Allies Rule - it was always a ludicrous mess. Hasn't worked sensibly since 2nd Ed, when they were in one book. Well, maybe the very start of 3rd, I suppose. Overall, it's lazy game design, and forcing people to buy multiple books for their army is poor business sense too.

The DH Special Characters? Stern, that other crappy GK (Corteaz??), and what? Is there even another in there? They're pathetic as is - I guarantee there will be at least twice as many in the new book, so who can that be bad?

Finally - although each Codex has a lead writer, typically most of the GDevs work on every book, to some extent. No-one can fairly be attributed 100% credit or blame on any book - with the possible exception of Jervis because he's the boss and it all goes through him.


----------



## superwill

hungryugolino said:


> That idiot's in charge of the dex? Feth.
> 
> *We can expect to say goodbye to* decent fluff, *the allies rules, *and the more interesting special characters.
> 
> This is the bluie-fanboy and guy who came up with Blood Angels partying with Necrons. Hard to imagine how you could trash the Inquisition fluff, but he'll doubtless find a way.
> 
> Joy.


Then, at risk of terrible fluff, I am happy for him to write the dex. Can't wait to see the back of the allied rule.


----------



## cwcuran45

Well it's not like we've got a whole lot else to discuss right now, but has anyone else heard this Matt Ward chatter? Dagmire, would it get anyone in trouble if you revealed where you heard this from?

On a slightly different note, there's a poster on warseer who claims his GW store has told him that SOB will be availble for PDF soonish. Releasing WH in PDF would be in interesting way to fix possible inconsistancies with the new GK codex unitl the SOB get a proper rework.


----------



## hungryugolino

> Obviously, it's entirely subjective, like all the fluff actually is (what with it being the property of GW, even what you write yourself, they can change whatever they want, and you may not like it, but do have to accept it, lol) - but I loved the (FINALLY BEGINNING) expansion of the Necrons from the mindless automatons of yore. Character Development is ALWAYS a positive step, even if poorly handled. (I don't think it was, ofc.)
> 
> As for the Allies Rule - it was always a ludicrous mess. Hasn't worked sensibly since 2nd Ed, when they were in one book. Well, maybe the very start of 3rd, I suppose. Overall, it's lazy game design, and forcing people to buy multiple books for their army is poor business sense too.
> 
> The DH Special Characters? Stern, that other crappy GK (Corteaz??), and what? Is there even another in there? They're pathetic as is - I guarantee there will be at least twice as many in the new book, so who can that be bad?
> 
> Finally - although each Codex has a lead writer, typically most of the GDevs work on every book, to some extent. No-one can fairly be attributed 100% credit or blame on any book - with the possible exception of Jervis because he's the boss and it all goes through him.


Mindless or not, Necrons are meant to be killing machines- Terminators on steroids with a bit more emphasis on the "kill everything" aspect. If anything, the 5th edition rulebook fluff makes them more, not less, mindless. It's not as though they think sparing the Blood Angels will help them find John Connor. 

The allies rules make sense and make the game more interesting. Poorly done or not, better to have the option as an official rule than to not have it. Same for the more obscure options, like the witchhunter scenarios, mutant mobs, and arbites units.

Crappy or not, the existing special characters are interesting.

Thing is, when you can point to failures with certain idiots at the helm...


----------



## GrizBe

Seems there might be some truth to the WitchHunters going .pdf...

Origional from TeDasCuen on Warseer:

"Yesterday at my local GW shop, the manager told me that the next month the 3rd ed. Witch Hunters Codex will be available for free from the GW website (PDF).

He told me this because he knows that I had started to play SoB when the codex was discontinued and I couldn't bought one."


I ask one of my friends to nip by our local GW on his way home from work to ask and he got a 'I believe its so from what I've been told' from its manager.

Not looking good for Sisters right now...


----------



## Necrosis

First of all, never listen to manger. They are not a reliable source of information.

Also if they do a PDF codex, this is probably a quick fix until they release the new codex.


----------



## GrizBe

Normally I'd not... but when its two different managers from two different stores, miles appart giving the same info... theres got to be a grain of truth to it.


----------



## boreas

Even if they put a PDF online, I would not expect an update to the rules or point cost. Most probable is that it'll be the current dex...

Phil


----------



## rodmillard

boreas said:


> Even if they put a PDF online, I would not expect an update to the rules or point cost. Most probable is that it'll be the current dex...
> 
> Phil


Sadly, I'm inclined to agree - if they were going to do an update I would expect it in WD first, then online, as they did with Bangles and Warriors of Chaos.


----------



## Creon

I'd actually expect the update to not change anything EXCEPT remove the rules for allies.


----------



## Necrosis

Actually I doubt that Creon. Seeing as the French already have a PDF version of it which includes the ally rules.


----------



## Inquisitor Mulder

I'm sure this discontinuation might be well known already but I tried to order a Sisters of Battle Squad last weekend and almost a week later got an email saying that the order was canceled because the product was discontinued. Today I redirected my order to get three of the little blister packs, but I really hope they keep the seraphim box. Is there any word on those?


----------



## TheKingElessar

??? There was at least one more page of this, where'd it go?


----------



## Vhalyar

TheKingElessar said:


> ??? There was at least one more page of this, where'd it go?


Looks like there was a rollback and the posts were deleted


----------



## maddermax

TheKingElessar said:


> ??? There was at least one more page of this, where'd it go?





Vhalyar said:


> Looks like there was a rollback and the posts were deleted


When they were transferring the server over to the new one yesterday, several hours of posts didn't go with it. Just one of the things about server upgrades I suppose.


----------



## GrizBe

Possibly co-incidence, probably not... but... GW's sent out an email saying that 2nd Chaos Demons are on the way in August...

Be kind of timely for Grey Knights be be making an appearence soon then don't you think?


----------



## Vhalyar

Here's the full Incoming text...


> In August, the immortal legions of the Ruinous Powers - the Chaos Daemons - will pour forth once more from the Realm of Chaos to drown the Warhammer world and the galaxy of the 41st Millennium beneath a tide of blood and destruction. Even now, mystics are assailed by nightmarish visions of horror and death, the fractured minds of madmen echo with sibilant whispers, and the doomed clutch symbols of their weak gods closer to them.
> 
> A host of incredible new Citadel miniatures for both Warhammer 40,000 Chaos Daemons armies and Warhammer Daemons of Chaos armies will soon be released upon mortal battlefields. All will be revealed in July here on the Games Workshop website and in August's issue of White Dwarf magazine, so keep an eye out for more information.


Seems like good timing, on the other hand it means no codex in August. Looks like we'll only get 3 codices this year, with the third appearing in September.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yupp, the rumours I posted yesterday got deleted as did my post on here mentioning it.

Anyways, I had a question.
When we get a new GK book, how will it work with the 3rd ed WH codex and the ally rules?
Will it simply say its no longer possible? But if it says so in the GK book does the WH over rule it? Like in : GK cannot ally with WH but WH can bring in allies from the GK.
Im really looking forwards to seeing the codex as it will be a stepping stone for whats to come for my beloved Sisters of Battle.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Audio/Fireborn.html
Listen to the free sample for some Sisters of Battle warfare 
If its any good I dont know, but atleast its something.


----------



## maddermax

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yupp, the rumours I posted yesterday got deleted as did my post on here mentioning it.
> 
> Anyways, I had a question.
> When we get a new GK book, how will it work with the 3rd ed WH codex and the ally rules?
> Will it simply say its no longer possible? But if it says so in the GK book does the WH over rule it? Like in : GK cannot ally with WH but WH can bring in allies from the GK.


Well, the WH could take allied GKs like any other variant marines, but then couldn't field any Sisters. GKs would be able to take WH allies, just like any other imperial force, unless the new codex decides to have it's own rules on the matter.

In other words, it would be pretty unchanged in terms of allying from what it is now, until the WH book is changed.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You sure? I remember reading that you could have GK and SoB in the same army no problem but not with SM. Maybe Im mixing it up with Army Builder where you are allowed to have GK and SoB in the same chart no problem but it does give errors if u have sororitas and sm together.


----------



## Bindi Baji

maddermax said:


> In other words, it would be pretty unchanged in terms of allying from what it is now, until the WH book is changed.


I believe that the eventual idea is for neither GK or SOB to have any ally rules in each ones new codex.

Ally rules themselves will come in the eventual Inquisition supplement, the inquisition supplement will feature inquisitors and their retinues and the ability to requisition any imperial force, much closer to general 40k fluff.

GK and SOB will just be imperial armies, that you can if you wish choose to use with inquisitors.

So somewhat closer to older editions.
unfortunately I know zero, nada, zilch about where stormtroopers fit in before someone asks........


----------



## maddermax

MadCowCrazy said:


> You sure? I remember reading that you could have GK and SoB in the same army no problem but not with SM. Maybe Im mixing it up with Army Builder where you are allowed to have GK and SoB in the same chart no problem but it does give errors if u have sororitas and sm together.


Hmm... Having given it a read, you may be right...

If you have a WH army, you can take marine allies, but if you do you cannot have any SoB in your force. Now, my thoughts were that GKs are a type of Space Marine, so if they are taken as allies, you couldn't have SoB in the WH army. However, after a quick look though, the GK allies rules also say that you can ally specifically with "Sisters of Battle". So RAI, I'd say that's a yes to taking them as allies for WH. On reflection, they've probably made a distinction between normal SM allies and having DH as an allied force...

You can always, of course, take WH/SoB as allies to a GK army.


When the GK rules come out, if they don't have rules for allying, you'll probably have to take them, and ally in a WH force, if you want them both together.


----------



## cwcuran45

Wow I had a post about this very subject yesterday....oh well.

As long as DH receives a name change then technically by RAW WH won't be able to ally with them as is outlined on pg 25 (IIRC) of the WH codex. The only kind of loop hole might be that one could consider the GK codex to be a Marine codex, but then again the WH entry specifically mentions which Marine Variants can ally themself with WH's.


----------



## Necrosis

If Daemonhunters/Grey Knight get a new update the sisters won't be able to take them as an ally. The only reasons sisters can take them as an ally is due to the Daemonhunter codex rule that allows them to be taken as an ally to any Imperial Force (Inquisition, Guard and Space Marines). Cause no where in the witch hunter codex does it say you can take Daemon Hunters as allies. Just how no where in the Daemonhunter codex says you can take sisters as allies.


----------



## maddermax

Necrosis said:


> If Daemonhunters/Grey Knight get a new update the sisters won't be able to take them as an ally. The only reasons sisters can take them as an ally is due to the Daemonhunter codex rule that allows them to be taken as an ally to any Imperial Force (Inquisition, Guard and Space Marines). Cause no where in the witch hunter codex does it say you can take Daemon Hunters as allies. Just how no where in the Daemonhunter codex says you can take sisters as allies.


Pretty much. That said, even if GK got their own codex, WH could still be taken as allies to them, as GK would be a variant SM list. It's just that a WH army couldn't take GK allies after that (assuming they scrap the allies rule of course). GK would become just like any other variant SM list in that regard.


----------



## Necrosis

Anyone notice that the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle didn't get a price increase, while Dark Eldar did? Also Daemons are getting a bunch of new models, while some sisters of battle and Grey Knights models cannot be ordered anymore. It seems to me that the Grey Knights will get a codex next. I also think all these rumors about Dark Eldar where made up (I mean why would they then get a price increase).


----------



## TheKingElessar

Necrosis said:


> Anyone notice that the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle didn't get a price increase, while Dark Eldar did? Also Daemons are getting a bunch of new models, while some sisters of battle and Grey Knights models cannot be ordered anymore. It seems to me that the Grey Knights will get a codex next. I also think all these rumors about Dark Eldar where made up (I mean why would they then get a price increase).


Not made up, just they aren't next. They will more than likely be next year now - but why wouldn't they hike the prices meantime? They don't make any profit ever, don't you know... 

Although, they did do badly at the start of the year, thanks to the internet hatred for the Nid book. Seriously, pretty badly. Most people hating on Beastmen didn't help much either.


----------



## Arcane

All this speculation about allies makes me laugh. Fact is no one knows for sure yet. For all we know a new DH codex could come out with just the same ally rule as the old, just like the new GKs could cost 8 points a piece and ride Leman Russ Battle Tank mounts. Hey, crazier things have been printed in the BA codex lately. 

Anyhow... I received an email back from GW about what they were going to do with WHs in the future. I recieved this: 


> We are still selling the models, so I believe we may currently be in
> that same limbo that the Space Wolves had been in between their last
> Codex and the new one.


What I get from this is, they are still making money off WH so they don't need to update them. Instead they need to re-update Daemons because they just weren't quite making as much money off them as they would have liked. :laugh:

I asked them this back in March and just received the reply. Thanks a lot customer service.


----------



## Dynamike

I was thinking the other day about the GK Terminators. They are quite a strong unit but I wonder what will happen to them with the update. I was thinking that it would be nice to have the possibility to exchange the storm bolter by a storm shield with the new rules to give them a cc focus if desired. Nemesis weapon and a storm shield would be nice.

Heard they are supposed to come with new plastic models but does anyone heard of anything about their updated equipment?


----------



## cwcuran45

Necrosis said:


> If Daemonhunters/Grey Knight get a new update the sisters won't be able to take them as an ally. The only reasons sisters can take them as an ally is due to the Daemonhunter codex rule that allows them to be taken as an ally to any Imperial Force (Inquisition, Guard and Space Marines). Cause no where in the witch hunter codex does it say you can take Daemon Hunters as allies. Just how no where in the Daemonhunter codex says you can take sisters as allies.


That's weird my copy of the WH codex (pg25) specifically states that DH may be used as allies. 

Of course, if there is no longer a DH codex then it would invalidate that ability. 

Meh...with demons getting the August timeshare I'll be waiting that much longer. It's time to focus on finishing the stuff I've got and stop fervishly looking for rumors.


----------



## TheKingElessar

cwcuran45 said:


> It's time to focus on finishing the stuff I've got and stop fervishly looking for rumors.


QFT! lol

Ofc, that's what GW wants too...but they're not always wrong, lol.

I have 2 armies to finish in a month, and don't know what to use in one of them yet...


----------



## boreas

Well, I've got "Horus Heresy" boardgame to start using and homebrewing. I haven't got a 5th ed. army and am a bit tired of getting my DH/WH/Tau/necrons trashed by IG/Nid/SW. 

See you in a few months, WH40k...

Phil


----------



## Shandathe

Necrosis said:


> Anyone notice that the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle didn't get a price increase, while Dark Eldar did? Also Daemons are getting a bunch of new models, while some sisters of battle and Grey Knights models cannot be ordered anymore. It seems to me that the Grey Knights will get a codex next. I also think all these rumors about Dark Eldar where made up (I mean why would they then get a price increase).


This doesn't surprise me for the Sisters. The Immolator/Rhino kit is already at the 20 the other transports go to, the Exorcist isn't particularly cheap either. Penitent Engines likely got a pass because they're not particularly popular since 5th edition. 

For infantry, some models are bloody useless at the moment *cough Repentia cough* (so they won't keep selling if the price goes up - I doubt they're selling many *now*) , others are already in line with the new prices, and several others are being discontinued, hopefully in favor of plastic ( Battle Sisters with bolters, I'm looking at you ).

I suspect it's the same for the DH, with models either already being expensive enough, due for a (plastic) replacement, or generally useless and thus poor sellers.


----------



## Necrosis

cwcuran45 said:


> That's weird my copy of the WH codex (pg25) specifically states that DH may be used as allies.
> 
> Of course, if there is no longer a DH codex then it would invalidate that ability.
> 
> Meh...with demons getting the August timeshare I'll be waiting that much longer. It's time to focus on finishing the stuff I've got and stop fervishly looking for rumors.


Read that page carefully. It says daemon hunters may use witch hunter as allies (not the other way around).


----------



## cwcuran45

Necrosis said:


> Read that page carefully. It says daemon hunters may use witch hunter as allies (not the other way around).


Fair enough I understood the rule just missunderstood what you were saying. 

I guess we'll have to wait it out and see.


----------



## Vhalyar

cwcuran45 said:


> Meh...with demons getting the August timeshare I'll be waiting that much longer. It's time to focus on finishing the stuff I've got and stop fervishly looking for rumors.


Pretty much. Right now I have zero wish to work on my armies. My Tyranids are entirely done, converted and magnetized and my DH are a failure-magnet when it comes to winning battles. I was really hoping for a codex in August to get the ball rolling again; even DE would have gotten me a few things to paint, but nada 

Guess I'll get my fix of Grey Knights by finishing making those fake data sheets. But then I'll invariably be disappointed when the actual rules are released


----------



## cwcuran45

I feel you brother. I've got some IG stuff that I'm not particularly enthused about painting and a little commission work from a friend. I would imagine I'll finish that stuff up in no particular hurry and then continue trying to master the art of playing IG. 

Searching for rumors on release dates and possible rules just seems to make the time go slower. I now have a better understanding of how tortured some of the DE diehards feel.


----------



## Bindi Baji

cwcuran45 said:


> I now have a better understanding of how tortured some of the DE diehards feel.


uh-oh, should we prep the straight jacket?


----------



## cwcuran45

Ha.... I think I will maintain my sanity....atleast through the end of the year....after that I may require an extended stay in a room with padded walls and no sharp objects


----------



## Vhalyar

Looks like we can forget about GK this year.


Harry said:


> Well I can add my voice to the chorus if it helps.
> I have been sure DE are coming in the autumn for a while BUT I was not sure what was next because I didn't know if GW were going to sneak in a cheeky Grey Knight codex in the summer. That appears increasingly less likely.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd disagree with that... ALOT. GW likes to release opposing armies back to back. Soo.. with Chaos Demons making their unexpected 2nd wave appearence, historically it makes sense that we'd get a Chaos fighting army after them.

Also... it makes economic sense for GW to release GK's soon too... probably an october release now. The Stormraven by most rumours, is meant to be comming out with the GK's, soo... a big kit like that, plus the GK's in the October slot for a pre-x-mas release makes sense as you'll have all the 'little Timmy's' of the world wanting the new Elite marines codex for x-mas, along with a bunch of models and bad-ass vehicles for them... hence, we also hopefully get a bunch more Deamonhunter players, boosting what is meant to be one of the less popular ranges.

Logically, theres been far too much said about GK's this year from multiple sources, and too many coincidental releases and 'fluffy bits' spotted to say they won't be along soon. Heck... removing the DH and WH codex's from sale when traditionally that only happens about 6 months before a new ones released, while the DE one is still very much for sale... I'm still hopeful.


----------



## HOBO

Vhalyar said:


> Looks like we can forget about GK this year.


This is why I don't bother much with Rumour threads..it's all guesswork, heresay and wishlisting in the main, and even the 'rumour gurus' get it wrong. I'll get excited when the 'dex is in my hands...Oh well, more money for my Guard in the interim.


----------



## DonFer

I guess the real question here is, why GW does not bother to inform his future releases to us customers? It's only right that they say a word or two about new products. It seems that we are in a super secret hobby, and any new release will bring up the end of the world or kill millions of people if disclosed before it hits the shelves. 
Or is it that they are unable to keep a regular product schedule, so they actually don't bother with announcing future products, with more than 1 month in advance?
Anyway, as Hobo says I'll be happy only when I'll have the dex right in my hands. In the meantime I've got some GK terminators to finish....:grin:


----------



## Baron Spikey

Well they tell us about 3 months before they release the new Codex, exactly how much more time would you like between the announcment and release?


----------



## DonFer

Well I dunno maybe more than 3 months. The thing is one should know what are the upcoming products. Everyone does it, even the guys at Apple that "announce" their latest gadget. The difference is no one knows what will the new product look/feel like, what does it have and what not. 
Three months is a bit too short for me. I get catalogs with the years' upcoming releases of many companies, this helps me decide what to look for in a year, save some money for the highlights and better plan my economics for stuff like this.
However if you consider 3 months to be a good period of time, then it seems obvious that GW does it too.


----------



## Alexious

They don't like us knowing too far out... otherwise like all hobbyists we would all wait for the releases before purchasing stuff that we might actually get right now.

If half of us knew hey plastic GK in October! Half of us would wait and whine while we did so... so that we can make that honor guard unit, the SM captain or Chapter Master or add another unit or expand our growing armies.

I am sure there are a heap of DE fans waiting and waiting... just for the release, yet they are still selling the product here in Australia... why say in advance whats coming... it can only delay the sale for the company... not increase it.


----------



## Necrosis

I'm going to call Harry wrong on this one. He doesn't seem that confident in himself, almost as if he is unsure. Also:

1) If the Dark Eldar where being redone, then why where they hit with a price increase on most of their models.

2) Why is the Dark Eldar codex (and models) still available while Daemon Hunter Codex (and certain models) are not.

3) Why release the Dark Eldar around the same time as the new Daemon Wave. Would it not make more sense to release Grey Knights?

Thus I'm betting harry is wrong on this one.


----------



## Logyn

Admittedly it could be either GK's or the DE as the next codex. There are rumors and sources indicating each, but the majority of the ones I've seen say GK's. Harry says DE in autumn, and he is pretty reliable, but DPA has been sure for almost as long that GK's are coming first, and he has been spot on for the most part. 
It also makes a lot more fiscal sense for GW to release GK's first, since they are a sure-fire money maker whereas DE would make a lot less in those late-year months, and we all know that GW likes fiscal gain. Add in the "opposing releases" and you can still expect to see them next. 

I'm sure the gnashing and wailing from the die hard spikyelf fans will be drowned out by those of us who really want to see Grey Knights. Hell, they've waited this long


----------



## GrizBe

Personally I'd take DPA over Harry as he does seem to pick up things more reliably sooner...

And as said... its makes more finncial sense.


----------



## Vhalyar

Harry said:


> @Necrosis
> 
> Not wrong at all. Question away. knock yourself out.
> 
> But dark Eldar ARE released in the autumn.





Harry said:


> If pressed I would say GK will be early 2011
> 
> I posted this somewhere on here back in March maybe the start of April.
> 
> Putting the pieces together I have been increasingly sure about this since then.


Hooray for dark spiky eldar!


----------



## bhsman

I like how, for the most part, those posting here saw Harry's post and immediately were skeptical rather than word'o'God it.  Harry may still be right about Dark Eldar in the autumn, but I wouldn't say they are next.


----------



## Vhalyar

Daemon Prince Adramalech said:


> *Chimes in.... agrees with the Pie Man...chimes out*


Well, DPA too seems to think there's no GK this year.


----------



## boreas

Oh well... What's that WH40k quote about hope again? ***grumble*** 

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Not disagreeing with bhsman though. There's still someone (well, two of them actually) I want to hear from before throwing the towel.


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

well as for all this DE in autumn buzz what of us in the southern hemisphere....we're in Autumn now  ah well we can only wait and guess, but don't assume, cause it makes an ASS of U and ME :laugh:


----------



## Logyn

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
or, more like:
"Abandon all hope, ye who play this game"

Ok, if DPA is with Harry, I will concede that the emo elves are more than likely next. DE fans can rejoice, though they'll probably start bitching again when they decide that the new dex isn't what they wanted. 
(I kid, I'm just bitter)

Well, at least we "know" now, though there are still some members of the choir who haven't joined in yet. I may still hold on to a shred of false hope, but I'm pretty big on denial.
So possibly an early 2011 release? More time for new models, right? right??? maybe.....?


----------



## GrizBe

I don't think that DPA is completely with Harry on this as he's the one who's 'visions' have kept pointing to GK's being before DE's. Until he flat out says different, I'm still believing the majority of the rumours as having releases for two evil armies on the trot does not make sense given GW's record.

He did say more recently that 'nothings concrete' and that things could still change.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I haven't heard anything definitive regarding DE coming first, that said it does now sound likely if Harry says so, still january wouldn't be too far to wait for GK, and lets face it the DE fans (and those that care for some of the now insane ones) deserve it if nothing else


----------



## Vhalyar

Now that's just grasping at straws :laugh:
DPA is pretty clearly saying that his information correlates with Harry's. His 'nothing is concrete' line was about his GK information being wrong, not the opposite.

Well actually feel free to raise your hopes up.

Anyway, from Dakka:



> I got this info during a three way discussion with a buddy of mine and a friend of his...who's involved in game design. People will refute these "rumours" and thats cool, take this with a grain of salt if you wish. You Grey Knight fans though, I know you want news and I'm here to tell you that there's hope.
> 
> I wasnt really paying attention to the "Inquisition" part. Instead I mainly payed attention to the Grey Knight info. Just a couple of little tidbits though...
> 
> -Allies rules are indeed gone. No more mystics for you guard players. In fact...none for anybody.
> 
> -Inquisitorial stormtroopers brought in-line with Guard ST's.
> 
> -Somehow, assassins cannot be used in Grey Knight armies.
> 
> -Inquisitor's psychic powers have been boosted significantly, they're really powerful characters now able to wreak havoc BUT they're pretty easy to kill still...still human w/T3. They're really extreme with the ability to rival some of the Special Characters out there in power but with the survivability of Guardsmen with 4+ invuln's. You can still get terminator armour for them but you TRADE your 4+ invuln for Terminator armour for 2+/5++. Basically, you cannot make a tank out of them. Mystics are GONE BTW. I was surprised at this. Daemonhunter's cannont shoot down any old deepstriking thing anymore.
> 
> Now, where I was REALLY interested, and kept the guy talking for a while was with the Grey Knights. I hope I got most of this right, I never wrote any down but the jist of the conversation is here...
> 
> -"Shrouding" is now as-per night fighting rules. Infantry only gain effect.
> 
> -I wasnt able to get any info on the bonuses against daemons, but the "without number" rules are still there for core units and changed just a little bit. The rule isnt the same but it still represents how Grey Knight daemon/chaos drop sites (yes chaos lesser daemons are included) are normally highly infested and there is indeed a problem that warrents them being there.
> 
> -No Changes to Grey Knight Weaponry other than stated below. Incinerators are the same, Psycannons are same except for now they're simply Assault Weapons.
> 
> -ALL Grey Knights are able to use their SB's in CC now. They also get their charge bonus.
> 
> -Nemesis Weapons on power armoured knights are str 6 still, but now RENDING. Justicar loses his power weapon status and is now just Rending with an add'l attack for his SGT status
> 
> -The Generic big commander, Grand Master (but with name change), his Nemesis is not simply a Force Weapon, BUT "Demonic Nemesis" rules state that it can Kill Daemons like a Force Weapon can kill non-EW multi-wound Models.
> 
> -Terminator Nemesis weapons are still power weapons, but keep in mind...they can use their stormbolters now in CC.
> 
> -Storm Sheilds brought in line with SM codex. Terminators can trade SB's for Sheilds for +5pts. Nemesis' can be traded for T-Hamm for free....wierd.
> 
> -Storm Ravens are a Heavy support Choice. StormRavens are able to get Scout somehow, but not in their selection. Maybe another Special Character or some Grand Master skill or peice of Wargear or something allows it. No other Scouting or Infiltration availiable in the army. Deepstriking only.
> 
> -Dreadnoughts now an Elite Choice, ONLY elites though. Psychic Upgrade availiable but at two levels, think Epistolary/Codicier. (of course, since every Grey Knight is supposed to be a Psycher)
> 
> -LR's, now out of the HS slot, Dedicated only now A-la, blood angels. No rhino's, chimera's or razorbacks for Grey Knights still.
> 
> -Terminators are Elite OR HQ Retinue still...same as before. Of course this all enables 3xstormraven/Dreadnought and 2xTermi squads at the same time, but you're paying some steep cost in points.
> 
> -In a strange twist, PA Grey Knights in the FA selection slot can now have jump packs. Divine Intervention as well. They can still deepstrike via teleportation instead however. Dunno (forgot to ask) if Divine Intervention will apply to this deepstriking or not. It would make sense I suppose...possibly giving you a reason to have a choice between JP's(advantage in Stormraven) or deep strike (advantage to deepstriking below)
> 
> -Brother Captain Stern is MUCH like Mephiston. Powerful Psyker, more than normal wounds for a character(either 4or5), Non-IC, T5, 2+/4++, His "RR power" is now a psychic ability turning into a sort of "Warptime" allowing him to RR his hits/wounds/saves/Ld/Ect but with no bonus for the enemy like last time. I suppose thats because it can be nullified now. His price is right around Mephiston level. His "Demonic Nemesis" rules also extend to ANY IC. Basically, his Nemesis can still Slay Eternal Warriors of any type. They're really plugging this Character...he's the "big daddy" in the codex. Sort of a prodigy of Grey Knighthood that even surpasses the Grand Masters in skill.
> 
> -"Holocaust". No more "unit" casting for the terminators...only skillful characters can use this one. Can be cast during shooting AND CC if the character is able to throw two powers a turn. Essentially, its an incinerator blast with a 3"+d3 that hits FRIEND AND FOE. AP4, no Cover, No Invuln.
> 
> -Sgt Types can be upgraded for psychic abilities too (apparently, they "focus" the squad's psychic abilities like a lens), if they die, no more Phychics for the squad. RR's to hit for unit. This to hit can be for CC OR for shooting. I found out about it when I asked if Purgation squads were still availiable and if they did anything to make them better. He responded with this, five possible weapon upgrades, and the fact that cost went down for the upgrades just a bit to make them more useful. Speaking of that, upgrading incinerators and psycannons sounds like GW realises that you GIVE UP Nemesis weapons for these options...the cost for the weapon trade isnt nearly as much.
> 
> -Also, there was something about "Decent of Angels" for deepstriking units. He didnt mention the exact name of the ability, but apparently, Grey Knights are as adept at teleporting as BA's are with Deepstriking JP's.
> 
> He talked a little more about how the BA codex was a sort of "test bed" for some abilities that this codex was going to have. They look alot alike but the basic troops here are better...and the point costs reflect it. This army will STILL be very elite and small. But Psychics, characters, and speed with stormravens is "off the chain".





> I talked to my bro that was also part of this discussion...he reminded me that it is indeed a Stormraven "Pilot" that gives the SCOUT movement. He has one other ability as well but he doesnt remember what it is other than its something protective.





> *August was what he said, which is in line with the current rumours on its release I beleive. *


----------



## Dagmire

that sounds real good but i wish we knew more about Inq forces


----------



## GrizBe

That sounds like alot of the rumours we've been getting already, appart from the jump packs. Most rumours I've heard have said there would be no jump packs for GK's... but I guess it makes sense coupled with the Stormraven. 

Terms sound a little strange though... I'd heard rumours of Nemesis force claws... Guess we'll just have to wait and see though.


----------



## Logyn

Well, we KNOW we are getting new daemon models in August. And the forces that be say DE in October or November...
Harry said he thought they were going to slip GK's in before the end of the summer, and DPA seemed to have it on good authority that they were. So here's the Question: Has GW ever released a second wave AND a codex in the same month? 

If DE are in the fall, I doubt (and I type this with tears in my eyes) we will see GK's this year, especially considering the release of fantasy 8th edition. I would not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Logyn said:


> Has GW ever released a second wave AND a codex in the same month?


no they haven't and unfortunately august is daemons for fantasy, daemons for 40k and erm, daemons for sunday best I s'pose (that just sounds all kinds of wrong)


----------



## bitsandkits

I think its likely September will be the box set for fantasy battle and likely some big 40k in october for the christmas run up


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> no they haven't and unfortunately august is daemons for fantasy, daemons for 40k and erm, daemons for sunday best I s'pose (that just sounds all kinds of wrong)


IG models + Blood Angels in the same month?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> IG models + Blood Angels in the same month?


really?, what a bad assumption on my part then


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> really?, what a bad assumption on my part then


That's why I wouldn't discount out the possibility of a same-month release until the first week of June. Past that point I don't think GW would do any August-related announcements, but until then I'm holding my horses. It's coming up pretty soon anyway, so it's not like I'm saying to hold your breath for months ;p

I'm not losing hope much nope anyway, someone came up with a count-as idea for GK -> SW, which I love and even works pretty damn well from a fluff POV. No matter what gets released this year, I'll have something to do.


----------



## bitsandkits

Bindi Baji said:


> really?, what a bad assumption on my part then


no it wasnt, the blood angels didnt share a release with the guard second wave.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think my thread has become too long, Im unable to edit it atm.

I will see if I can fix it somehow.
Just wanted to add this, its a small rules rumour compilation
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7280


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think my thread has become too long, Im unable to edit it atm.
> 
> I will see if I can fix it somehow.
> Just wanted to add this, its a small rules rumour compilation
> http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7280


get it closed and start another then


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I just removed the introduction and moved up the news section and turned news section into new rumours section.
I will be able to get atleast 2 posts the size of the rumours one before I need to remake the thread. By then we should have the GK codex in our hands and I can turn it into an Ecclesiarchy rumours thread instead


----------



## cwcuran45

So if these rumors are true and the other basic stats remain the same then we have:

WS 5, BS 4, Str 6 (with rending), 2+ save, Storm Bolter, and Shrouding = Night Fight

Can you imagine these stats (not str6 and rending) on purgation squads with long range weapons?


Either atleast some of these rules are bogus or the points cost will be crazy high. It would be really cool if these are true, but it would be awesome if GK had a rule where all infantry models counted as scoring. If it does become a super elite/low model count army then I would think this would be about the only way to make them competitive.


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## MadCowCrazy

I think the balance would be high cost and low model count.
You might be uber but if you have 10GK cost the same as 100orks then Im not sure who would win. These are all just rumours though, S6 and rending wont really help much in assault vs gaunts and ork boys if your attack count is low.
It will be really interesting to see what they do, though its looking more and more like there will only be one more codex this year. Will it be GK or DE, we should know before the end of next month I hope.


----------



## bitsandkits

Not sure if anyone is interested or if its been mentioned before, but as an indie trader i can no longer purchase any WH of GK sets, not even the immolater, i think september is the most likely based on my conversation with trade sales today


----------



## bhsman

Were you having similar difficulty in ordering Dark Eldar kits?


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## Logyn

The WH codex on the site makes perfect sense, as we know they aren't coming for a while. DH, however... Why would they go to the trouble of putting it up if they are to replace it in 4~ish months? Though without models available, it REALLY doesn't make sense, as nobody can buy into the army between now and when they release new dex.

Is there some ritual or ceremony to understand GW's actions? Maybe sacrificing a Black Shirt on a black altar at the apex of the full moon?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Remember that piece of fluff about a Company of GKs vs an entire Daemon World, and they wrecked the joint?

Maybe 10 GKs vs 100 Orks isn't a fair fight, but not how you mean...


----------



## cwcuran45

Blood of Kittens just posted a bunch of new(ish) DE rumors, one of which says DE before GK. That part isn't new, but it appears to be from a different source.

link:
http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3481


----------



## bhsman

Ouch, another twist of the knife for those of us that wanted GK by this year. Nothing's making any sense. What we know:

-A codex taken down from the website (surefire way to know if a codex is being redone)
-Models not subjected to any of the price increases coming up
-Unavailable troops boxes off the main website
-The exact opposite of all these for Dark Eldar

And yet at every corner we're told that Dark Eldar are next. What's going on?


----------



## boreas

GW is what's going on... Tiresome!

Phil


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## Dynamike

Yeah this is getting kind of weird. All these rumors going back and forth. I am really excited about the coming of the grey knights. I truly hope we are getting a small glipse of what is to come pretty soon. Would be nice to finally have official news from GW saying what comes when. Obviously it is not one of GWs strong points.

On a side note, interesting to see in the rumors what I was talking about a few posts back about GK terminators exchanging their storm bolters for storm shields. Can't wait to see how this codex is going to shape up.

All I can do for now is wish best of luck to all those, like me, who are impatiently waiting for the *Grey Knights* :washim:


----------



## bhsman

boreas said:


> GW is what's going on... Tiresome!
> 
> Phil


I'm not so sure, as they aren't the ones telling us that Dark Eldar are surely next...


----------



## boreas

bhsman said:


> I'm not so sure, as they aren't the ones telling us that Dark Eldar are surely next...


Yep, but they are the ones going "woooo... Mysss-tery!" on us. Which is ridiculous. 

In regard to the rumors, I really like what I'm hearing... I don't mind being at 10 vs 1 if my GKs get to be really elite. 10 GKs with St6, 2+ save and night fight could "kite" around 100 orks to get in a few round of shooting and then charge in the wipe out the rest. There would probably be 2-3 GKs standing after that, but that's epic!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Aww, wtf?!
It seems my entire first rumours post is gone. The site was acting really weird yesterday but when I finished it was still there


----------



## GrizBe

Well i went into my local store today and the manager was pretty adamant from what he's been told about forthcomming releases that GK were first and to look out around Gamesday UK for them... which paints them in for a september slot.

He also seems to think that DE will come out before x-mas too, but GK's are first.


----------



## rodmillard

*confused*

From a marketing perspective, everything points to GK in the autumn:

=I= codexes taken off sale in the spring, and not getting a reprint (DE codex, and full model range, still on direct order).
Some stock no longer available, and no price rise on existing stock (this is the nearest GW ever get to an end-of-line clearance sale)
Daemons in august: I would bet good money that even if they don't announce "To fight the warp spawned menace, the Grey Knights will be in stores in October" in that month's white dwarf, we will see pictures of some of the new models in the magazine (although we may need to play "where's wally" in the crowd scenes...)
Stormraven would then be this year's "big kit" release for gamesday, with preview copies available at the event before it is officially released alongside the GK codex on 2nd or 9th October.

And yet the old codex is allegedly going up in PDF form, and some of the rumour mongers I normally rely on say DE will be first. WTF?

Everything points to a high profile, well coordinated launch for the GKs in 4-5 months time. I can see the steps as if I had written the marketing campaign myself. And then there is the stuff that does not fit into any kind of sensible, orchestrated marketing strategy.

Of course, this being GW, that doesn't surprise me. 

Could it be that only the WH codex will be going online, and WH models will be getting a re-release (possibly with different models in the squad boxes, since noone I know uses that weapons combination on SOB squads) alongside the GK launch?


----------



## TheKingElessar

I cannot see them rereleasing WH models onto the shelves. At most, Direct only. Without a new Book, shelf space is at a premium as is.


----------



## mahavira

Question: Did any of the rumor bigwigs predict Daemons in August?

It occurs to me that the relative strength of DE rumors may be precisely because they are -not- next (but soon). If GW has decided that what they are doing with the inquisition forces is going to be big and that they want it to be a surprise, they may have dropped a cone of silence with possible instructions to give misleading leaks. The release of pdf versions of the DH and WH codices: making two books freely available might be an attempt to build interest in the armies in preparation: people can 'get started', fall in love with the fluff, play a few games using proxy models, and be primed for when the new release comes without being angry that they paid $30-40 for books which became immediately obsolete, and people who would otherwise say 'I'm not spending money on an ancient codex for an army I don't play' will probably take a look if it's free, expanding market awareness.




rodmillard said:


> *confused*
> 
> From a marketing perspective, everything points to GK in the autumn:
> 
> =I= codexes taken off sale in the spring, and not getting a reprint (DE codex, and full model range, still on direct order).
> Some stock no longer available, and no price rise on existing stock (this is the nearest GW ever get to an end-of-line clearance sale)
> Daemons in august: I would bet good money that even if they don't announce "To fight the warp spawned menace, the Grey Knights will be in stores in October" in that month's white dwarf, we will see pictures of some of the new models in the magazine (although we may need to play "where's wally" in the crowd scenes...)
> Stormraven would then be this year's "big kit" release for gamesday, with preview copies available at the event before it is officially released alongside the GK codex on 2nd or 9th October.
> 
> And yet the old codex is allegedly going up in PDF form, and some of the rumour mongers I normally rely on say DE will be first. WTF?
> 
> Everything points to a high profile, well coordinated launch for the GKs in 4-5 months time. I can see the steps as if I had written the marketing campaign myself. And then there is the stuff that does not fit into any kind of sensible, orchestrated marketing strategy.
> 
> Of course, this being GW, that doesn't surprise me.
> 
> Could it be that only the WH codex will be going online, and WH models will be getting a re-release (possibly with different models in the squad boxes, since noone I know uses that weapons combination on SOB squads) alongside the GK launch?


----------



## Dynamike

I know this is not really a reliable source of rumors but.. I was wondering if any of you noticed.

On the Forge World website about the Ork Battlewagon with Lifta Dropper, in the 2nd picture of the first row the Battlewagon is compared to an Inquisitorial Rhino. I mean, why not use a common Rhino or anything else. But no, they had to use a Rhino with a huge =][= on the front and sides. 

I know this is probably just me going crazy about the upcoming Grey Knights but I was thinking it was an interesting and/or funny fact that I thought I'd share with you guys :read:

Here is a link to the picture in question: Battlewagon + Inquisitorial Rhino


----------



## GrizBe

I can't think of any of the main rumour guys who predicted the 2nd wave of demons being in August, but as pointed out... It makes perfect financial and build up sense to be doing this for a September release.

Mahavira and rodmillard have pretty much nailed my thoughts on it.


----------



## boreas

Didn't Harry predict it like 8 months ago (in the fantasy section of Warseer)??? I might be confused. But then again, this whole "suprise wave"/"mystery line-up"/"contradicting rumors"/"PDF-codex-coming-out-to-mask-ninja-release" gives us only one clear indication: GW is screwing up. Either they were supposed to have some release that got stalled for some reason or they have very twisted minds in marketing.

Phil


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> Question: Did any of the rumor bigwigs predict Daemons in August?


yes, it was mentioned a few times but talk of 2nd waves will never cause as much excitement as new armies and so the rumours will generally get overlooked



boreas said:


> GW is screwing up. Either they were supposed to have some release that got stalled for some reason or they have very twisted minds in marketing.
> 
> Phil


a lot of the release order is now fairly pliable partly because it stops so many rumours getting out and it also means there are things prepared if/when a delay happens


----------



## rodmillard

boreas said:


> ... they have very twisted minds in marketing.


its a job requirement - you only need to look at this


----------



## TheKingElessar

I remember last year it was predicted that Daemons second wave would be this summer - just it was assumed it would be an early release. Certainly, Spearhead crept up on us a bit, or at least, I first heard of it from GW themselves.


----------



## Logyn

There is also the possibility that GW changed its mind from GK's to DE as the next release for some unforeseen reason. This could just as easily mean that their minds could change AGAIN. At this point, we downright don't know what's coming or when it'll be here.

A September release for GK's is possible, but considering the proximity to 8th Edition Fantasy, I am not hopeful. But one way or another we should know next month what to expect in September.

In any case, I will cling to my dying hopes with bleeding fingers until a GW announcement crushes them for good. Fight on, fellow Inquisitors.


----------



## GrizBe

Most of what i've heard about the DE's is that the entire range is being remodeled, which means alot of time at the moulders to get all the boxed sets done. 

GK's on the other hand, alots going plastic, so its an easier conversion... plus the Stormraven is for BA's too, so that saves some time....

I'm still thinking that GK's are going to be the surprise Games Day release now, along with the Stormraven model.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Most of what i've heard about the DE's is that the entire range is being remodeled


that's the plan, but I believe that the initial release will have around half and the rest will be finished if/when additional waves are released (a question of sales as usual)


----------



## boreas

Well, according to Reds8n DH/WH get free PDFs (yeah!? - huh, not...) and DE are next. He did underline the "are"... Free PDFs at this point are stupid and ridiculous. First, it won't get "new" players interested as most fluff/hobby probably won't tbe in the PDFs (it's not ine the French version). Second, Even if they got interested the price and availability of the model is prohibitive. Third, anyone who's had some interest in those armies and bought models over the last seven years has the codex. Fourth, why would people suddenly be interested in codex, bother to learn using it when they know those rules will be obsolete in a year or less...

Great gift, GW, just like those itchy sweaters we sometimes get at Christmas...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have to agree. Giving us free PDF codicies for outdated armies is completely retarded.

Lets say you have someone who has been interested in the DH or WH codicies but everyone keeps telling them the armies are dated, suck, none competitive etc etc.
So now they see the codicies up for free and think; Wow, now I get to try them out for myself, I can just proxy with my Ultramarines or whatever else I got.
So happy with glee they download the codicies and read through the rules. They try a simple army build and plays a game most likely loosing vs a 5th codex (due to inexperience with the army coupled with dated rules, high unit costs and unusable wargear/spells etc).
Oh well, a loss, they go online and check out some army list posts and grabs some uber/ultra/godly list (or so claimed) and try again. Might do better but will probably lose.
Losing with a new army is nothing new, I have lost every single game Ive played with my SoB except for the first game which I won trough Annihilation but we both made so many mistakes and his army list wasnt legal and a few other problems.

Im sure I will get struck down by people claiming they win all the time with their DH/WH armies vs 5th ed armies.

Anyway, so if they get past the dated rules and overpriced units. So they want to buy some minis. Lets say some GK, 20PAGK and 10 GKTermies.
PAGK you have to buy in packs of 2 for 9£ so thats 90£ for 20guys and 5 termies go for 35£ so thats 70£ for 10 guys.
So we are now up at 160£ for 30minis, none of which have Psycannons but you do get 1 Incinerator terminator with each box.
If you want the special weapons thats 8£ per PAGK and 10£ for a terminator with psycannon.

So my question to GW is, why the hell would anyone get interested in playing and collecting an army thats ridiculously overpriced both in points cost and cash.
Id rather just buy a Cadian starter box and proxy the minis instead, dip them in plaster to make em a bit bigger and called em GK.

Rant over


----------



## Azezel

They are throwing us a bone. It's something normally done to dogs and... ah, your rant is pretty much the same as mine would be.


Long story short, the appearance of this .pdf would seem to indicate that a new Codex SoB/Ecclesiarchy is even further away than once thought.

On the upside - there is one reliable method for converting people. Let them see how godawesome your sisters are, and how enjoyable to play, and they will go out and drop a ton of money on ebay. A ton of money, I hasten to add, that would have gone to GW were they still selling troop boxes...


----------



## cwcuran45

Would you rather see them available for pdf, meaning it's not worth a reprint due to the proximity of their release date? Or would you rather see the codices go back on the shelf?

Atleast this way we know or can safely assume they are close to a revision. 

I'm not saying I like it, but GW isn't automatically losing money by doing this. If I were a new player then I'd probly gravitate to one of the newer armies like Nids or BA's. What I mean to say is that GW may be steering customers away from DH/WH, but it's not realistic to say they're steering them away from 40k. Hell, I'm not a new player and I started working on a guard army a few months ago because I'm not happy with the way a GK heavy build plays(especially against CSM's). 

From a big picture point of view I'll be happy to see DE get some love, it's been 12 years and I'm getting sick of seeing all the "sigh, another sm codex" BS. Personally though nobody in my area plays BA's or DE so having to wait for GK/Inq to breathe some new life into our club really sucks.

Part of me thinks about how many times I've seen "noone expects the inquisition" quotes on GK/SOB/Inq rumor threads. I also think about the April fools spray gun that GW posted. I can't help but think maybe, just maybe, GW's sense of humor has told them to forego marketing and do a surprise Inquistion release....perhaps I've become totally delusional :laugh:


----------



## hungryugolino

In a time of darkness, only the mad prosper. Only those that prosper may judge what is sane. :biggrin:

Seriously though, I doubt it. Games Workshop is bad at "subtle".


----------



## Bindi Baji

hungryugolino said:


> In a time of darkness, only the mad prosper.


are you sure you aren't a DE player?

that's the kind of thing some DE players seem to say right before they go on about "lies about a new codex" and then foam at the mouth and go on to reciting lines from mary poppins while holding a bloodied meat cleaver


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> I have to agree. Giving us free PDF codicies for outdated armies is completely retarded.
> 
> Lets say you have someone who has been interested in the DH or WH codicies but everyone keeps telling them the armies are dated, suck, none competitive etc etc.
> So now they see the codicies up for free and think; Wow, now I get to try them out for myself, I can just proxy with my Ultramarines or whatever else I got.
> So happy with glee they download the codicies and read through the rules. They try a simple army build and plays a game most likely loosing vs a 5th codex (due to inexperience with the army coupled with dated rules, high unit costs and unusable wargear/spells etc).
> Oh well, a loss, they go online and check out some army list posts and grabs some uber/ultra/godly list (or so claimed) and try again. Might do better but will probably lose.
> Losing with a new army is nothing new, I have lost every single game Ive played with my SoB except for the first game which I won trough Annihilation but we both made so many mistakes and his army list wasnt legal and a few other problems.
> 
> Im sure I will get struck down by people claiming they win all the time with their DH/WH armies vs 5th ed armies.
> 
> Anyway, so if they get past the dated rules and overpriced units. So they want to buy some minis. Lets say some GK, 20PAGK and 10 GKTermies.
> PAGK you have to buy in packs of 2 for 9£ so thats 90£ for 20guys and 5 termies go for 35£ so thats 70£ for 10 guys.
> So we are now up at 160£ for 30minis, none of which have Psycannons but you do get 1 Incinerator terminator with each box.
> If you want the special weapons thats 8£ per PAGK and 10£ for a terminator with psycannon.
> 
> So my question to GW is, why the hell would anyone get interested in playing and collecting an army thats ridiculously overpriced both in points cost and cash.
> Id rather just buy a Cadian starter box and proxy the minis instead, dip them in plaster to make em a bit bigger and called em GK.
> 
> Rant over


Pardon my ignorance but are you saying that none of the actual GK models are usable with the "forthcoming" new dex???? This implies a very serious blow for the hobby, and very poor planing from GW. I don't reckon that the release of the new codex will render all old models obsolete, or so I think.


----------



## Logyn

You misunderstand. Models will be released with the new codex. BUT that codex will be released in the grim darkness of the distant future, whereas in the much nearer future we will recieve the CURRENT DH and WH codexes as PDF files via the GW site as a band-aid until we get shiny new ones.

Madcowcrazy is saying that this is pointless because NOBODY is going to start GK's before their codex release and anyone who already plays has a codex. At least, that's what I got out of it.


----------



## Witch Hunters Rule

Whoa! Did I miss something? There is a Witch Hunter's PDF available? Updated for 5th edition? (not the FAQs). At this time, I'll take anything and be happy to wait for a full codex!


----------



## LostIsland

sorry buddy, not yet.
the PDF they're talking about isn't out yet, and it is just a digital copy of the "current" codex to avoid having a reprint


----------



## dobbins

I would love a free WH/DH codex so I wouldn't have to spend £15 on a codex to field an inquisitor and assassin with my Guard army. If this is the case then thank you GW for saving me money.


----------



## TheKingElessar

dobbins said:


> I would love a free WH/DH codex so I wouldn't have to spend £15 on a codex to field an inquisitor and assassin with my Guard army. If this is the case then thank you GW for saving me money.


I don't own paper copies of either Dex myself. This will be nice to get, for lawls. Interestingly, the staffers at my GW were eagerly pushing it - so I reckon the speed of redo for WH is largely contingent upon popularity of the PDFs.

Download them to all your friends and family's computers! :laugh:


----------



## boreas

Imagine who much people will complain about abusive use of Inquisitors and Mystics in 6 months... I should have thought about that number of downloads as a marketing test thing. Off to download!

Phil


----------



## DonFer

Logyn said:


> You misunderstand. Models will be released with the new codex. BUT that codex will be released in the grim darkness of the distant future, whereas in the much nearer future we will recieve the CURRENT DH and WH codexes as PDF files via the GW site as a band-aid until we get shiny new ones.
> 
> Madcowcrazy is saying that this is pointless because NOBODY is going to start GK's before their codex release and anyone who already plays has a codex. At least, that's what I got out of it.


Oh, OK, my mistake.:biggrin:

However (and I'm not trying to make enemies here) I can relate to this GW strategy. See, it is only fair that even if we get a new dex for another 4 to 5 months, GW should encourage the collecting of figures, even when these are not the new models. This way, (or so I think they're thinking), people that have "old" GK armies can jump right into the carnage when the new dex is released. It's just a matter of updating the rules in the end, but the old figures are and gonna be indeed still legal (actually the only models out of stock in the GW site are the GKs squad, you can still get your hands on them via Amazon, or E-bay).

So for a part I reckon that GW is expecting to bring new people into the business with the out-of-date-but-free-nevertheless codex, in order to launch a better one (hopefully in the near future). No money is being wasted since the old dex is still free, your figures are still legal, "just learn the new rules". What they are trying to avoid is, in IMHO, that people stop buying stuff because there is a strong rumor of new products coming. 

This does not mean that we seasoned players :grin:, will hold our horses 'till the last minute to get our mitts on some new GKs/DEs/WHs models and/or dex. 

But that's just me (and maybe some wishful thinking too).


----------



## cwcuran45

^^ I think the real answer is somewhere in the middle of yours and MCC's response to the pdf'ing of the codices.

I can't tell you how many posts I've seen where the OP'er is looking for advice on starting a new DH/WH army and gets told to wait by just about everyone who responds because they "going to get redone soon". Personally, I'm not buying anything GW related until I have more info on whats coming out soon. On the other hand I could see how some might start one of these armies simply because they don't have to pay for the codex.

Personally, I don't really see this as a "test bed" for how popular the armies are. From what I understand revisions like these in which an army recieves new models and rules takes years. Whatever GW's plans are for WH and DH's is already atleast roughly known by somebody somewhere. I know it's popular to harp on GW for "bad business", but they haven't been in business for 20+ years and sell their products in multiple countries because they lack the ability to plan.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Actually, they mostly are in business DESPITE their strategies...they had a real monopoly for nearly a decade - but now, who hasn't heard of Privateer Press? Or one of the other dozen companies that provide alternatives? They screwed up, and ran at losses LONG before the economic downturn.


----------



## DonFer

From my experience, I've seen companies go down in flames and other emerge like fungus on cheese in my fridge, in the hobby industry. And bad strategy or planning means instant death to any company that dares take that path. Audiences for these kind of business is limited and WE are a very demanding crowd. We don't like the game and we stop buying, is that simple. It doesn't help either that a lot of people involved in the hobby (or any other hobby being cards, brd games, RPGs, etc.) have limited budgets. So I don't reckon GW is doing it all-the-way wrong. 

But I can agree that the have been leaving a lot of the work for a late date, in terms of updating their games. This I think is a major flaw, and they should do better at this. As I said before, we players loose interest pretty fast if we don't get what we want, and as TheKingElessar said, there are other alternatives if we eventually get bored of waiting.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im sure there will be allot of people who download the codex from GW, I will for sure even though I already have it both in PDF and book form.

One problem I see is that if they go the same route as with the French version it will be nothing more than rules in the codex. I believe allot more people would pick up the army if the fluff and other stuff is still in there.
We dont know yet in what form it will be, the PDF I have is pretty much a scan on the first WH codex release and the book I have is of the 2nd print of the codex.
Im sure anyone interested in the codex with some basic computer skills would have downloaded it by now.
Heck they should offer every codex as a free PDF with just the rules, that way they could updated them more often. They could sell the codicies with all the extra fluff and so fourth in them for those of us who wants that kind of stuff.
Sooner or later they will have to update the codicies faster because allot of people will get bored waiting 10years for an update. So once we get the 5ed GK and SoB codicies, do we have to wait until 2020 before we get an update? Will we be in 7ed 40k by then?

I have heard some talk about how GW should/could add more races to the game, this is bound to happen sooner or later because there is just so much you can do with 1 army.
20 different troop choices? 20HQ, FA, HS and Elite? Will we be bringing 5000point armies to the table in the future?
I think GW would have to update a codex every month or two months, thats 1-2 years to update every codex.
If the life of an edition is 4 years then they should update everything within the first 2 years and the 2 remaining years they could add all the other crap allot of people dont care about like planetstrike, spearhead etc.
If I had to chose between a new codex for the army I play or planetstrike, apocalypse and spearhead I would bin all of those for a new codex.
You SM players need not reply because you have always had a codex for every edition simply because your army sells well. How fun would it be if 40k turned into Ultramarine world where the only army you could play was SM. People who play SM, or any other army for that matter needs new enemies/armies to fight to keep up the interest.

I guess the point Im trying to make is that I believe codex updates are more important than anything else for this hobby to survive. New models come in at second place and then all the extra ways to play the game at 3rd.
Fluff is also very important to some people but there are allot of ways for them to add it in without having to slow down codex production. Books, novels and the codicies they would sell could all have those. I would buy them for sure just to get to read the fluff for my army but if I had to chose between waiting 1year for a codex with no fluff or 2 years for one with, Id go with the 1year option and buy the full codex a year later for the fluff.
How many codicies do they work on at the same time? From what I hear it takes 1-2years to complete a codex and get it prepared for release. To updated all 12 (if I remember correctly) codicies it takes a very long time. If they have a new codex every 4 months that would mean every codex gets an update for every edition but this has never been the case.

All Im saying is that I want to play an army that is on somewhat equal grounds to the other ones. What would happen if GW reworked 6ed into a game that works completely different from today, think going from 2ed to 3ed. Im sure SM and Orks would be the first to get a new codex, would the rest of us have to wait 10years to be even able to play our armies again?

Yes yes, Im exaggerating. Guess Im just frustrated.
Rant over before this becomes an essay of whine


----------



## DonFer

I hear you mate :so_happy:. I have been around for a very short time, and I expect better support for all armies, I'm not planning to switch to SM or Orks in order to get updated rules every time there is a new ed. 

Daemonhunters for ever! :biggrin:


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> One problem I see is that if they go the same route as with the French version it will be nothing more than rules in the codex


I am pretty sure it will be the rules and almost nothing else



MadCowCrazy said:


> Sooner or later they will have to update the codicies faster because allot of people will get bored waiting 10years for an update. So once we get the 5ed GK and SoB codicies, do we have to wait until 2020 before we get an update? Will we be in 7ed 40k by then?


you shouldn't see such a backlog of old codexes in the future, one of the big problems going into the latest codex was the amount of codexes that were way too far behind, however some codexes will undoubtedly get left behind



MadCowCrazy said:


> I have heard some talk about how GW should/could add more races to the game, this is bound to happen sooner or later because there is just so much you can do with 1 army


Don't expect any new armies without the loss of another army, bearing in mind your previous point shows the problems with this line of thought, this would mean the gap between certain codexes would become worse. 
The reason why we haven't seen a mechanicus or deathwatch codex is because there is simply too much too worry about currently without releasing more, this point has been made by virtually all the design team at different points in recent time.


----------



## hungryugolino

Games Workshop can be compared to the fluff for the Imperium: inefficient, run by idiots, and damaged by all its bad decisions, but ultimately too big to really be affected in any meaningful way.

:biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Meh, like everything it will crash and burn sooner or later, some other company will declare EXTERMINATUS on Games Workshop and once the great purge is complete we will all be playing that companys game 

Im just hoping to get an update before the world ends late 2012.


----------



## Blue Liger

I agree with MadCow there has to be a point in 40k where GW say this armies codex is as up-to-date as it needs to be for now, and to do this 6th editon rules (whenever they appear) need to be an improvement on the 5th rules clearing and changing a few things, this way all codex's can be brought into line with one editon.

As has been suggested the soc alled pdf codex I believe once codexs have been brought to said standard anything that needs faqing needs to then be put back into print by printing the fixes in all new produced codexs (this can be done alot easier without loss of mass profit by limiting codexs that are first produced - with an well thought idea on how many would sell the first month) following this new entries they wish to place in say a new unit add a nicley laid out page for the codex in colour to print off and have OFFICIAL CODEX MATERIAL written all over it for each army.


----------



## oblivion8

> One problem I see is that if they go the same route as with the French version it will be nothing more than rules in the codex. I believe allot more people would pick up the army if the fluff and other stuff is still in there.
> We dont know yet in what form it will be, the PDF I have is pretty much a scan on the first WH codex release and the book I have is of the 2nd print of the codex.
> Im sure anyone interested in the codex with some basic computer skills would have downloaded it by now.
> Heck they should offer every codex as a free PDF with just the rules, that way they could updated them more often. They could sell the codicies with all the extra fluff and so fourth in them for those of us who wants that kind of stuff.
> Sooner or later they will have to update the codicies faster because allot of people will get bored waiting 10years for an update. So once we get the 5ed GK and SoB codicies, do we have to wait until 2020 before we get an update? Will we be in 7ed 40k by then?
> 
> I have heard some talk about how GW should/could add more races to the game, this is bound to happen sooner or later because there is just so much you can do with 1 army.
> 20 different troop choices? 20HQ, FA, HS and Elite? Will we be bringing 5000point armies to the table in the future?
> I think GW would have to update a codex every month or two months, thats 1-2 years to update every codex.
> If the life of an edition is 4 years then they should update everything within the first 2 years and the 2 remaining years they could add all the other crap allot of people dont care about like planetstrike, spearhead etc.
> If I had to chose between a new codex for the army I play or planetstrike, apocalypse and spearhead I would bin all of those for a new codex.
> You SM players need not reply because you have always had a codex for every edition simply because your army sells well. How fun would it be if 40k turned into Ultramarine world where the only army you could play was SM. People who play SM, or any other army for that matter needs new enemies/armies to fight to keep up the interest.
> 
> I guess the point Im trying to make is that I believe codex updates are more important than anything else for this hobby to survive. New models come in at second place and then all the extra ways to play the game at 3rd.
> Fluff is also very important to some people but there are allot of ways for them to add it in without having to slow down codex production. Books, novels and the codicies they would sell could all have those. I would buy them for sure just to get to read the fluff for my army but if I had to chose between waiting 1year for a codex with no fluff or 2 years for one with, Id go with the 1year option and buy the full codex a year later for the fluff.
> How many codicies do they work on at the same time? From what I hear it takes 1-2years to complete a codex and get it prepared for release. To updated all 12 (if I remember correctly) codicies it takes a very long time. If they have a new codex every 4 months that would mean every codex gets an update for every edition but this has never been the case.


Well said... well said k:

I actually wonder where the future of the hobby will go myself...
some of my main concerns were:
-If they continue to add new models to each army, the books will get bigger, and chances are they wont be able to produce that many new figures. How many new critters are they going to add to Hive fleet leviathan before they run out of ideas, or money.
-Is the game world never going to expand?? Or will we always be trapped in the monotomy of "that certain time period" in the 41st millenia. Will we never find out whether the necrons finnally attack, or if the imperium ever gets its ass handed to them by the newest hive fleet or waaghh?
-Like madcow said, how long are we going to have to wait for new dex's?? will I be in my early 30's when I get the next witch hunters dex? saves money for us I suppose (no new minis and books to buy), but they could at least put us on par with the current edition. The drawback to a new army rehall every edition for every army, is how many times can they.... which brings me on to the next point:
-how many times can they rewrite the "universal rules" for the space marines, how can they continue to make each new codex fresh and creative. Right now they are at a point where its not to much of a worry, but sooner or later, will they revert to bringing the old rules from previous dex's back just remade for current ed.? The BRB is different in the variety of change it could produce in the next ed. but I am quite interested to see how they modify the next space marine book to make it different from the past versions.

just some things I wonder about sometimes :biggrin:


----------



## cwcuran45

Beerfart's GK rumors are a lie btw:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/295597.page

Fixed, Thanks


----------



## Logyn

I believe the link you mean might be:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/295597.page

Yea, sometimes I really hate people. So scratching those rumors off the list...
Oh good, so Grey Knights might *not* be Blood Angels 2.0. Thank God.
Doesn't leave us a whole lot to go on, though.


----------



## GrizBe

Shame the rumours sounded so logical for GK's otherwise they'd not have been believeable.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Since the new edition of Warhammer is due out in June, does that now free up a month for a 40k release? Hopefully GK or DE?


----------



## GrizBe

I don't think so since its availible for 'Advanced order' from June 15th.


----------



## DonFer

What a looser.... well we have all been Punk'd!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Fixed the rumours post and removed everything related to the liar.

Ah well, Im actually kinda relieved


----------



## dobbins

ha ha ha that's really funny, not being sarcastic either. Just goes to show you should never believe what you read on the web, and how easily people believe it and snowball the the ideas until they become so big they have to be true and then you convince others of it too. I hope that's a lesson learned for those dudes.


----------



## Logyn

MadCowCrazy said:


> Fixed the rumours post and removed everything related to the liar.
> 
> Ah well, Im actually kinda relieved


That makes two of us. I'm still hoping for LR Ares and jetbike GK's in the codex. Anything new and exciting, really.

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for real rumors... then again, nobody knew what was in the Nid or BA codex until it was in the black boxes... I guess that's GW's policy now. :secret:

Maybe we'll get our dex in September... Maybe DE will have a "printing error" and GK's will slide into the fall slot. Here's to hope. :biggrin: If only I could drink it...


----------



## DonFer

This is exactly how all those people waiting for the new iPhone 4G should be experiencing. I seem to recall a few weeks ago that someone left his prototype in some coffee shop, some guy picked it up and the next thing you know there were photos all over the internet.

I wish someone would forget his GK models in the local coffe shop for some of us to find so we can get a glimpse or what GW is planing....:biggrin: (more wishful thinking..:dunno


----------



## oblivion8

lol
well jet bike grey knights would be cool, but I could definitly see them building on the idea of teleporting (I know its more or less BA DS, but it makes sense), maybe they could have some crazy mass teleport rule where one GK squad that DS's cna let 1-2 more squads DS as if the 1st were a teleport homer. Wow rule wishlisting..... sorry =S


----------



## hungryugolino

That would...be hilarious.

Not balanced, not fair, but absolutely hilarious.

Grey Knights: The only army where a basic troop choice makes your opponent spam pie plates.


----------



## Vhalyar

Logyn said:


> I wonder how long we'll have to wait for real rumors... then again, nobody knew what was in the Nid or BA codex until it was in the black boxes... I guess that's GW's policy now. :secret:


Tyranids got accurate rumors way, way before the black boxes, due to a fantastic community at Warpshadow with a few insiders. BA got some accurate rumors before the black box too, if I recall.

Anyway, we've obviously been moved back to January 2011 at the earliest, so don't expect anything of worth before November or December.


----------



## Logyn

Vhalyar said:


> Tyranids got accurate rumors way, way before the black boxes, due to a fantastic community at Warpshadow with a few insiders. BA got some accurate rumors before the black box too, if I recall.
> 
> Anyway, we've obviously been moved back to January 2011 at the earliest, so don't expect anything of worth before November or December.


As I recall it, the vast majority accurate rumors for tyranids didn't appear until a German copy of the codex was released early (I was following the Nid rumors religiously and remember wanting to cry when the actual codex was released). BA had a few good tips earlier though, but not ahead of the codex by more than a couple of months. 

I agree, though. We are almost certainly looking at a 2011 release, and probably wont have much to go on until winter.


----------



## Bindi Baji

The main difference with rumours now is that while they do make appearances you don't get that many reliable rumours at the same time, the people who do get rumours have to be more careful and can't blab much at the same time or they will get noticed.



Logyn said:


> As I recall it, the vast majority accurate rumors for tyranids didn't appear until a German copy of the codex was released early


I know for a fact there were many, many hints and rumours before then doing the rounds, 
one reason I know is because I had a fair few that were passed around, brimstone and a few others had quite a lot more. 
However the german codex you mention was admitted to be a hoax by the original creator and was just reliable people's rumours mixed in with guesses.

Blood angels rumours trickled out slowly for quite a while and I don't think there were any big surprises left that close to release


----------



## Vhalyar

Off-hand I remember elite Genestealers, carnifex squads, plastic trygon + inclusion in the codex, warrior overhaul and super zoanthrope as being rumored before any actual codex leaks.


----------



## oblivion8

all of which were true in one way or another. Not all rumours are false, they just may be misinterpreted. Ymgarl stealers = Stealers as elite choice.


----------



## GrizBe

Snagged this from Warseer. Origionally posted by Pushkin:

"Disclaimer

1. I am aware that other reliable sources have said there will not be a combined codex
2. I am aware that GW staff don't always have access to the best information
3. I am just posting what i heard in a GW store, please no personal remarks.



My girlfriend asked about sisters of battle in a GW store today and was told by a staff member that they are being re-released in October following a presentation at Games Day. He said it would be a combined codex.

As i mentioned in my disclaimer above i am aware many reliable sources have stated that there will not be a combined codex. My GF was asking specifically after sister of battle and he said that they would be part of a combined codex. However, this does fit in with some other rumours that plastic grey knights are being released in October and the fact the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codexs are going out of print and being moved online.

Anyway thats all i've heard. I don't know whether its true or not.

Cheers."


I never normally believe staff members, but to ask specifically about SoB's then to get that... its interesting if its true... and hits with known rumours.


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Vhalyar said:


> Off-hand I remember elite Genestealers, carnifex squads, plastic trygon + inclusion in the codex, warrior overhaul and super zoanthrope as being rumored before any actual codex leaks.





oblivion8 said:


> all of which were true in one way or another. Not all rumours are false, they just may be misinterpreted. Ymgarl stealers = Stealers as elite choice.


the fake german codex had only 2 troop choices both were gaunts, -according to said the person who leaked the "rumour" this was to move nids in line with other codexes as most had 2 troop choices.
according to the fake codex warriors were staying elite and genestealers were being moved to elite.

The only thing the codex got correct was carnifex squads that had already been mentioned by brimstone and someone else at warpshadow


----------



## Vhalyar

oblivion8 said:


> all of which were true in one way or another. Not all rumours are false, they just may be misinterpreted. Ymgarl stealers = Stealers as elite choice.


Well yes, that's what I just said? :s
I wasn't calling those rumors fake; I was saying that these were the rumors that popped up way before any leaks of the codex and turned out to be true.


----------



## Necrosis

GrizBe said:


> Snagged this from Warseer. Origionally posted by Pushkin:
> 
> "Disclaimer
> 
> 1. I am aware that other reliable sources have said there will not be a combined codex
> 2. I am aware that GW staff don't always have access to the best information
> 3. I am just posting what i heard in a GW store, please no personal remarks.
> 
> 
> 
> My girlfriend asked about sisters of battle in a GW store today and was told by a staff member that they are being re-released in October following a presentation at Games Day. He said it would be a combined codex.
> 
> As i mentioned in my disclaimer above i am aware many reliable sources have stated that there will not be a combined codex. My GF was asking specifically after sister of battle and he said that they would be part of a combined codex. However, this does fit in with some other rumours that plastic grey knights are being released in October and the fact the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codexs are going out of print and being moved online.
> 
> Anyway thats all i've heard. I don't know whether its true or not.
> 
> Cheers."
> 
> 
> I never normally believe staff members, but to ask specifically about SoB's then to get that... its interesting if its true... and hits with known rumours.


Today I went to my Local GW and ask if they would combine the Inquisition, they said no.


----------



## DonFer

I've heard a lot of rumors comming from the local GW store. We don't have anything as such over here so I am just curious: What information do the store staff actually get from GW Central? From what I see GW isn't very comunicative about future plans, and telling inside info about future products seems like counter-productive in terms of their "No tell" policy. 

Just wondering...:scratchhead:


----------



## Dagmire

For all that remember i DID say sisters would be in a PDF like the old BA a bout a month ago.


To that end. GK in jan and a re-released sisters codex in WD (maybe updated)


----------



## Bindi Baji

DonFer said:


> I've heard a lot of rumors comming from the local GW store. We don't have anything as such over here so I am just curious: What information do the store staff actually get from GW Central?


Close to none at all until extremely close to release,
of course a few managers will be in the know but these are few and far between and these guys don't admit they know anything or give rumours because they end up either 
A: getting no more rumours after that
or 
B: getting a P45


----------



## cwcuran45

FYI Beasts of War still strongly believe there will be GK/Inq release before DE. I don't really know if their predicted release sched is based of good sources or pure speculation. However, they speculate that instead of getting a GK dex, we'll be getting a combined dex.






scroll over to 16:20


----------



## GrizBe

Admittedly, that was posted over 2 weeks ago... but, they have been more in the know then some people... soo... its interesting of GK's are still August like they're predicting, , and if it is a combined codex. Afterall, don't really know who's got the right info or not considering theres been so much misinformation about the GK's.

I'm still predicting games day myself, though I'd love for GK's to be august.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yeah, had that vid up in the old rumours section. I think I might have found something really interesting. Added it to the rumours section.
Basically check out these 2 links :
http://www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_276090-Witch-Hunters.html
http://www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_276080-Daemonhunters.html

This one is also VERY interesting :
http://www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_276081-Dark-Eldar.html
I thought DE was direct only? Now when Im checking other webstores they all seem to offer them for sale. I have never really bothered to look before but I wanted to check if they DE section had the same info as the WH/DH.

So are DE no longer Direct only?
Anyways, hope you find these rumours interesting.


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yeah, had that vid up in the old rumours section. I think I might have found something really interesting. Added it to the rumours section..


it's just a shop jumping to conclusions due to the impending PDF's, I don't know how something like that can be classed a rumour, it's just baseless speculation




MadCowCrazy said:


> I thought DE was direct only? Now when Im checking other webstores they all seem to offer them for sale. I have never really bothered to look before but I wanted to check if they DE section had the same info as the WH/DH.
> 
> So are DE no longer Direct only?
> Anyways, hope you find these rumours interesting.


hmm, lets look at this logically,
DE are now direct only, at least partly due to the fact DE don't sell very well now.
DE haven't always been direct only, this means shops once sold them before they became direct only.
Add these together and you will see that this is old stock that hasn't sold.........


----------



## fynn

but that shop is a new shop, only just opened about a month or so ago, if that long


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm... interesting... question is, if they've got info that the next codex is Demonhunters, why hasn't our resident independant retailer come to confirm the same?

Also... how can both be true unless we are indeed seeing a combined =I= codex?


----------



## babalu

First of all thank you madcow for all your work updating this thread,

Now i would like to add the fact that in maelstrom both ranges are also noneexistent(WH) or with 2 miniatures while stock lasts(DH) but DE are still there full force, and maelstrom is a big miniature provider if not the best one for GW

WH-http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=cat&cre=min-40k-wih
DH-http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=cat&cre=min-40k-deh


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This is just pure speculation but could it be that webstores have gotten hold of info about the WH and DH after the price rise? I mean every other army received a increase in price, but DH and WH did not.
So could it be that webstores have been hinted at that there might be a new release coming soon?
When I talked to gw today the guy seemed pretty confident GW was trying something new with the release of the codicies in PDF form. He said it would only contain rules, if this is the case why go to that trouble? Why not just scan the old codex and post it?

This is the way I see it, the pdf codicies will reveal allot about GWs future plans. If its the old 3ed rules then we will probably not see a release this year. If its updated rules for 5ed we might see a release this year, Id atleast expect the stormraven and some plastic GK. Maybe 2nd wave release in Jan combined with sisters and their new kits.
Then again, if all this was true it would mean DE are far from release. Or they could do a DE in jan and a 2nd release sometime after that or in time for christmas.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Why scan it? lol

They would have a copy on disc...


----------



## Bindi Baji

fynn said:


> but that shop is a new shop, only just opened about a month or so ago, if that long


I think you'll find that it is an old shop that has either only just got a website or has changed hands, it is physically impossible to get DE stock for independant shops from GW now


----------



## Shandathe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Maybe 2nd wave release in Jan combined with sisters and their new kits.


Metal Sister squads have been out of stock since April. February and March in some places(like this one). While being without a model *happens* to all units occasionally and going without for 8+ months isn't strange for new and exotic units... this particular unit's the basis for every bloody Sister squad in the Codex. 

We're already telling people not to start a Sisters army as it is. January is (way) too late for Sisters. This year'd be good. I'd say August/September at the latest.

Seriously, if the PDF release is supposed to be a bit of a marketing gimmick, it's going to backfire spectacularly with the current state of affairs.


----------



## DonFer

I lost the ability to diffierentiate fact from fiction.:grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Shandathe said:


> Seriously, if the PDF release is supposed to be a bit of a marketing gimmick, it's going to backfire spectacularly with the current state of affairs.


I can agree if its the 3ed codicies getting released. If its new rules and units for 5ed I think its a step in the right direction.
Like I said earlier, I believe having all the codicies rules online as free pdfs is a far better system than the current one. They could updated the dex when its needed rather than having to create a whole new book. Have the rules for free online, sell the codicies to ppl who like the fluffy parts of their armies.
They could very well revert back to those collectors guides they used to make.
They could have all the fluff, models and painting tutorials gathered in those books. The only update that would really be needed after that would be more fluff and models.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I can agree if its the 3ed codicies getting released. If its new rules and units for 5ed I think its a step in the right direction.


The PDFs are the 3rd edition ones. No updates, no change, nothing new.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> The PDFs are the 3rd edition ones. No updates, no change, nothing new.


How u know? You have them already?


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> How u know? You have them already?


Do u honestly believe them to be anything else?.

It is just the rules in PDF form, 
Exactly the same (except the language) as is currently available in a few european countries and it is being released purely to tide things over whilst the codexes are in the shops.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I have been told this also.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nah, I dont believe they will be 5ed but until they are out I can hope cant I?
Guess I need to pass my Act of Faith roll on 3D6  I got a 8, so my Act of Faith is successful


----------



## boreas

Depends on your leadership, really (as your are an Independent Character). Given this thread, you can claim a 10. Remember, folks, that the French PDFs (which have been on the GW: France site for years), are a bit different (Inferno Pistol has the melta rule, DH assault cannon is Heavy 4, rending...)

I'm hoping with you MCC. Otherwise, it's yet another round of letters/emails to the GW bosses!

Phil


----------



## bhsman

Curiouser and curiouser...time can't pass quickly enough it seems.


----------



## fynn

Bindi Baji said:


> I think you'll find that it is an old shop that has either only just got a website or has changed hands, it is physically impossible to get DE stock for independant shops from GW now


well i dont want to disagree, but according to there website, and a thread over on dakdaka, theyve only just started stocking GW in the last month, so if that is the case, that got there DE stock from somewhere


----------



## MadCowCrazy

fynn said:


> well i dont want to disagree, but according to there website, and a thread over on dakdaka, theyve only just started stocking GW in the last month, so if that is the case, that got there DE stock from somewhere


Exactly, this is why I found it interesting. They havent even sorted out half the stuff they are going to be selling yet. So how were they able to get DE stock?


----------



## bitsandkits

i can still buy dark eldar from GW trade, infact i got 2 battle forces last week for the site, the only items not for sale from trade to indies are DH and WH


----------



## GrizBe

Certainly suggests to me that DE are further away then is being suggested, if for the only reason we know their entire range is being redone.. if some people still seem to be able to get ahold of stock for them, there is either a surplus someones trying to get rid of, or my first conclusion.


----------



## bitsandkits

All items that were available at the start of the year for indies are still order able now including the codex, the dark eldar are not next the DH and WH are next after deamons


----------



## GrizBe

That makes me wonder too... is it a combined codex, or are they launching two at once?


----------



## bitsandkits

GrizBe said:


> That makes me wonder too... is it a combined codex, or are they launching two at once?


Hard to say, alot of what they are doing is standard procedure, models removed from the indie ordering list means one of three things, new box art,models moved to online only or new codex, but if the codex is removed from the order list at the same time as the core models then its a new codex situation.This has been the case for the last 2 and half years with only space marines being the exception and even then some of the model were unavaiable for a short period because of box art.

A few things are out of the ordinary, firstly this is happening to two ranges at the same time in the same game system and those two armies have close links,leading to speculation of a combined codex.
Secondly DH core troops are still available online from GW direct, this could mean they have alot of back stock or it could point to seperate codexs but released close together and its just the timing and nature of the sales that means they apear to be linked but infact GW knew with current sales level clearing the back log of DH would take longer than clearing the back log of WH stock.
Thirdly PDF codex's this to me is the biggest proof that they are coming next, the paper codex is gone so what better way to market a soon to be released army than to put the old out dated codex on to the website for free? that means anyone who may be interested in starting the army that does not current own the paper codex can read it for free which translates in to sales for the new paper codes when it is released, this type of technique is employed by retailers all the time, give a customer something for nothing that costs you nothing, hook them in with the freebie and reel them in.Dont forget GW survives by selling new products to new collectors,veterans who already own a DH or WH army are not GW target market,hard to understand but the maths is simple,if you have 2000 points of WH on your shelf you are not likely to purchase another 2000 points of models and a codex just because new model are released. When the eldar codex came out i replaced war walkers and wraithlords, everything else i liked but ignored.
This arena of selling to collectors is something GW are getting better at, unlike most other things in our world Minis are not really a disposable item and due to the nature of the animal most gamers look after there armies so breakages and natural wastage are very small,from a retail point of view that's a bad thing because it means you dont get many repeat sales on anything other than the consumable item like paint and glue, so GW need to make every new army appealing enough to make people want to collect more than one army (or in the case of appocalypse collect more of it)


----------



## Shandathe

Well, I went and picked up a White Dwarf for the occasion... Aaaaand it's proving pretty useless. As per usual.



Adam Troke said:


> We're uploading PDFs with more rules for Spearhead and codexes for Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters, as well as great painting and assembly articles for the new releases





> *Forces of the Imperium rejoice!*
> Go and register on the Games Workshop website to access the archive of PDF articles, including two massive downloads in the form of Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Witch Hunters. The downloads contain full rules for using the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunter armies in your games fo Warhammer 40,000.


Which still doesn't tell us whether there's ANY sort of update in there, but does officially confirm it'll show up in June, I suppose.


----------



## DonFer

bitsandkits said:


> A few things are out of the ordinary, firstly this is happening to two ranges at the same time in the same game system and those two armies have close links,leading to speculation of a combined codex.
> Secondly DH core troops are still available online from GW direct, this could mean they have alot of back stock or it could point to seperate codexs but released close together and its just the timing and nature of the sales that means they apear to be linked but infact GW knew with current sales level clearing the back log of DH would take longer than clearing the back log of WH stock.


I do recall GW being out of GKs for about 1 month in their online store. I started building my GK army by the end of february, and until mid april, the Online store was out of the GK in PA box. Moreover, I had problems buying online and I called Customer Service, and they helped me with the purchase. The guy told me it was the last GK PA box they had so "I was lucky". At the time I figured they ran out of stock but now I think they were clearing the back log (or are they making more GKs in PA? There are still GKs available online...).



bitsandkits said:


> Thirdly PDF codex's this to me is the biggest proof that they are coming next, the paper codex is gone so what better way to market a soon to be released army than to put the old out dated codex on to the website for free? that means anyone who may be interested in starting the army that does not current own the paper codex can read it for free which translates in to sales for the new paper codes when it is released, this type of technique is employed by retailers all the time, give a customer something for nothing that costs you nothing, hook them in with the freebie and reel them in.Dont forget GW survives by selling new products to new collectors,veterans who already own a DH or WH army are not GW target market,hard to understand but the maths is simple,if you have 2000 points of WH on your shelf you are not likely to purchase another 2000 points of models and a codex just because new model are released. When the eldar codex came out i replaced war walkers and wraithlords, everything else i liked but ignored.


My thoughts exactly. This I consider a good way to introduce new players to the hobby and to GKs and WHs armies. The release of a new Dex and minis will not render any previous purchase obsolete, it will actually add to the game. This is good for the seasoned gamer and also to the newbie.

So I hope (although I'd like to conclude) that DH and/or WH are coming next.:so_happy::biggrin:


----------



## Azezel

GK next I can believe - though my money's on Dark Eldar, then Grey Knights.

It's very hard to believe that WH/SoB are anywhere near release though. Unless I have missed something, there seem to be more rumours about Necrons than sisters, and no-one expects them any time soon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> and no-one expects them any time soon.


NOONE EXPECTS THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION!!!


----------



## GrizBe

I'm just not sure what to expect anymore with that WH being next as well as the DH's hint... makes me really confused as to just what the codex will be, or how many we're getting, and just what'll be in it.


----------



## bitsandkits

I personally think we have arrived at a titanic GW business point, with the recent-ish release of blood angels and space wolves and several second waves for many armies, We are now at the point of "Ok GW lets see what you are gonna do with the armies you have been ignoring for years".

So i think the hype and interest surrounding DE,DH,WH and Crons is bubbling around peoples heads and is worse than for any other armies in the past, most of us wont even buy the stuff, but alot of us are expecting GW to either drop the ball or release new stuff and codexs the likes of which we havent seen before. 

Price rises aside the one thing that tends to make people move away from the hobby is lack of releases or support for there chosen army, not everyone has a desire to own every army in every game system and the what GW do with the release of any of the "poor four" hopefully will show that GW have realised that.


----------



## boreas

It would be a tremendous event if GW released the "poor 4" (I like that expression) back to back inside a 12 months period. I'm pretty sure all of those would bring in big income for GW. Why? It's because they have so few models right now that GW could multiply the models and people would buy them to finally have some diversity. Plus, those players have often put their buying og the backburner in the last year so they feel like they have a lot of budget to spend.

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Fair enough, MadCowCrazy.

I think the phrase 'poor four' is perfect, assuming we don't want to use the phrase 'red-headed step-children'. But honestly, the chances of seeing WH/SoB within 12 months would seem to be low.

There seem to be more, and more solid seeming rumours about Necrons than Sisters. It's only the disapearance of the codex and models that hints of an update, really.


----------



## bitsandkits

Azezel said:


> Fair enough, MadCowCrazy.
> 
> It's only the disapearance of the codex and models that hints of an update, really.


But this is the exact process that has happened every time we get a new codex for as long as i have been buying from GW trade sales.In my eyes and my opinion WH are next in line after deamons based on my experience.


----------



## DonFer

I'm with BitsandKits in this one. Remeber that there has been no price increase for WH/GKs (not sure about DE). Necrons I think are not in this year, with the price increase and the availability of the codex.


----------



## Azezel

DE prices went up, donfer.

I dearly hope you're right B&K. In fact, I'd thank you for saying 'I told you so, squire' in six months time, or whatever.



bitsandkits said:


> In my eyes and my opinion WH are next in line after deamons based on my experience.


After Deamons (the second wave models thing in august) or after Deamonhunters?

Eitherway, feeling pretty excited!


----------



## GrizBe

My understanding of releases right now stands at :

August - Chaos Daemons
September - Daemonhutners and Witchhunters
October / November - Dark Eldar
December - ?
January 2011 - Necrons.

I hope its something along those lines.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> My understanding of releases right now stands at :
> 
> August - Chaos Daemons
> September - Daemonhutners and Witchhunters
> October / November - Dark Eldar
> December - ?
> January 2011 - Necrons.
> 
> I hope its something along those lines.


well it's nearly half way there anyway


----------



## Kettu

@Bindi Baji,

In light of the rampant wish listing and the odd abundance of combined codex rumours and even the advent of shared release spot rumours, has you understanding of the Sisters not for another 18 months changed at all?

Ultimately, Sisters are the only army I really care about at this point and their all metal army and 3rd ed codex really annoy me.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> has you understanding of the Sisters not for another 18 months changed at all?


the best chance of any SOB stuff coming in the next year will be repackaging, anything else is baseless speculation at this point


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> September - Daemonhutners and Witchhunters
> October / November - Dark Eldar


Except codices have never come out so close to each other in the past three years at least, and most probably since always.

It's not going to happen, there's no GK or Inquisition codex this year. The only months where a codex release is still possible are September, October and November. Keep in mind there is never a codex in December. So that's a 3 months window, not enough for two codices and we know exactly which one is in that time-period.


----------



## WhiteRussian

Could this be something?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=188500&st=1100&gopid=2422418&#entry2422418


----------



## GrizBe

Vhalyar said:


> It's not going to happen, there's no GK or Inquisition codex this year.


You do realise that quite a few independant traders have now said that GW have told them that Deamonhunters are the next release after Chaos Deamons?


----------



## rodmillard

Bindi Baji said:


> the best chance of any SOB stuff coming in the next year will be repackaging, anything else is baseless speculation at this point


Sadly, I think you're right. 

That said, I think they would be missing a trick not to publish a "get-you-by" list in WD to coincide with the GK release (along with repacked squad boxes) - it would keep sisters players happy and eliminate allies once and for all. The PDF of the old book suggests otherwise, however.


----------



## TheKingElessar

WhiteRussian said:


> Could this be something?
> 
> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=188500&st=1100&gopid=2422418&#entry2422418


Welcome to Heresy, and thanks for sharing! :biggrin:

I'm not convinced - it COULD be a Codex Cover, but, equally, it could be a novel, though it lacks the traditional Black Library markings. It could of course be a Battleforce cover, or another piece of box art, instead. It could even be photoshopped fan art.

Has anyone seen this before?


----------



## Creon

Being from DeviantArt, I suspect it's Fan Art.


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> You do realise that quite a few independant traders have now said that GW have told them that Deamonhunters are the next release after Chaos Deamons?


Which ones?

When I emailed Maelstrom and a couple of other stores, they all replied the same thing: "we don't know but it kinda looks like how things went down with Tyranids and SW, so we're assuming they are next" which is not quite convincing.

And that fanart is a couple of months old on top of being fairly different from the style GW uses for codex covers.


----------



## GrizBe

Bitsandkits for one... unless I've read wrong.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Id say it could still go either way, DE or an Inquisition codex. Im starting to believe its going to be a Forces of the Imperium codex rather than a codex GK, DH, WH or SoB.

When we get the PDF files we might know a bit better, if its 3ed it might mean there has been a pushback and that DE are next or it could mean they want to get people interested in the armies.

If its 5ed rules it could mean the codex has been pushed back so they are giving us the rules as a form of damage control if they intend to release the new models without the codex. It could also mean DE are next and that they are giving us a slightly updated codex so we at least have something.

Another question is there going to be 2 codicies? Aka DH and WH as PDFs? If so its most likely 3ed rules, if they combine it into FotI then that in itself would be a big hint on where they are heading with the army.

The fanart is just that, fanart, I put it up because there isnt much going around atm regarding the Inquisition.


----------



## bitsandkits

i think if the CODEX were going to be updated for the PDF's to 5th then they would have put them in WD and charged us £4 to have a butchers,GW dont tend to give stuff away for free.


----------



## GrizBe

Yeah.. chances of the .pdf being 5th ed rules for them is like a million to one shot.

Either way, I think its a good way of getting people interested in the two armies again and hopefully encouraging more people to want to play them.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Another question is there going to be 2 codicies?


Two, no more, no less. 
Two shall be the number of codecii, and the number of the codex shall be two. Three shalt thou not count, neither count thou one, excepting that thou then proceed to two. Four is right out.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Bindi Baji said:


> Two, no more, no less.
> Two shall be the number of codecii, and the number of the codex shall be two. Three shalt thou not count, neither count thou one, excepting that thou then proceed to two. Four is right out.


You wouldn't happen to know where a man might find a shrubbery would you?


----------



## Sacred Angel

I do really hope that grey knights are next and I have heard rumors of a storm raven coming out with them. It would make allot of sense considering that daemons come out in june-july.


----------



## hungryugolino

I suggest you try Catachan.


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Bitsandkits for one... unless I've read wrong.


Then go back and re-read what he's said because it's a hundred percent speculation on his part, nothing about GW telling him any insider information as you claimed :/

You said multiple indie retailers; which are the other ones who have stepped forward with this miraculous information from GW? Or was that just you indulging yourself with hyperbole to convince yourself otherwise? :/ Barring any unforeseen events it's DE this year and GK in 2011.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar, one could ask you the same thing. From where have you heard that DE are next, has GW said they are next? You will probably mention the pieman and a few other people who have been known to be accurate on rumours but that is still just as much speculation as GrizBe saying Bitsandkits thinks the Inquisition is next.

For all we know Space Marines could be next with another 5ed codex update.

What Im trying to say is : You cant claim someone else's ideas/beliefs/wishthinking are nonsense while saying your own, which has just as much merit as his, are the true ones.

I guess this is why religious people fight, what I believe is true, you speak blasphemy you infidel dog


----------



## bitsandkits

Vhalyar said:


> Then go back and re-read what he's said because it's a hundred percent speculation on his part, nothing about GW telling him any insider information as you claimed :/
> 
> You said multiple indie retailers; which are the other ones who have stepped forward with this miraculous information from GW? Or was that just you indulging yourself with hyperbole to convince yourself otherwise? :/ Barring any unforeseen events it's DE this year and GK in 2011.


Hmm Speculation you say? In some ways yes, but GW are a large company and they have processes in place for codex and army book changes, and because they dont have seasonal clearance sales like other retailers the processes to change a range is always the same and those exact processes are going on now with WH and Deamon hunters and not with dark eldar or necrons. 
Now i have had some conversations with trade sales, but im not going to quote them in this forum, and those conversations fell short of a 100% confirmation, but as a trader i have to ask the question "why cant i order sisters and grey knights" and the normal answer is either "we are moving them to direct only"(previously happened for alot of metals in the sisters range) or "they have been discontinued" and i got the second answer.
This is exactly the process that has happened to every other kit that is about to be recut,converted to plastic or repackaged for the last 2 plus years, and that process starts usually between 6 and 3 months before they are replaced depending on sales. Some WH units have been unable to be ordered for at least two months to my knowledge (possibly longer) as well as the codex's.

So i would say using GW's standard procedures WH are due in early autumn for the run up to xmas along with Warhammer fantasy box set and if Dark Eldar are coming soon they will get the Febuary big release spot


----------



## boreas

Vhalyar said:


> Barring any unforeseen events it's DE this year and GK in 2011.


To his defense, for the nest 6 months all event are unforseen... The rumor lockdown is firmly in place. Still, on one hand you have a few DE rule rumors (somewhat contaminated by hoaxes and speculations). On the other hand, you have the disappearing act of DH/WH codice and models which have always announced a new codex... But then you have this "reappearing" of he codice as PDFs...

Everything is still up in the air, as far as I'm concerned. We could be flabbergasted by a surprise Necron codex :scratchhead:

Phil


----------



## fynn

nah, its gona be a hello kitty codex..........lol
ot, tbh theres so many rumours flying around, its getting hard to say what GW will do next


----------



## dobbins

I've got an idea, it's a bit crazy and far out so bare with me... why don't we all just be patient and ignore all the speculation and made up rumours and wait for something official?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Any minute now I expect someone to come in here and say there will be a combined codex and they found this latest rumour out whilst reading their tea leaves.
Time to abandon the thread i'm afraid, byeeee


----------



## boreas

dobbins said:


> I've got an idea, it's a bit crazy and far out so bare with me... why don't we all just be patient and ignore all the speculation and made up rumours and wait for something official?


I eat well. I exercise. I drink with moderation. I take care of my wife, kids and home. I have a good job. Warhammer is my main vice :crazy: so bring me speculation, hope and despair, anger and joy. Make this one hell of a ride... Yeah, baby, yeeeeaaaaahhhhh... 

:shok:

Ah... uhhh... well, go on, everyone... 

Oh, yes, I had trouble connecting to GW's website this morning.... but no PDFs when I finally did, darn!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> Time to abandon the thread i'm afraid, byeeee


Lies I tell ya, you will still be around. Just in case I find something interesting 

If we see a Inquisition codex this fall then this thread is slowly reaching the peak of its life only to die from abandonment as soon as a codex hits. Unless there isnt a combined codex, then it will shift over to a WH/SoB/Ecclesiarchy thread but I think that would be way too soon because we have hardly heard anything about sisters.

I still dont know what to believe, I have hopes for a Inquisitorial release this fall, Id rather see SoB get their own codex but to me it looks like its going to be combined.

Waiting sucks :crazy:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Found a picture of the new Sisters of Battle sniper infantry. Looks awesome!


----------



## mahavira

"By the greater good, where did that line of flame come from?"
"I don't know, but we'd better go to ground!"

-failing a pinning test against a sniper flamer, or is that failing an IQ test...


----------



## Kettu

Well, in the heat of battle, when tempers run high and you get all hot-headed, you tend to over-look things that seem as clear as a flame in the darkness.
None the less this idea seems like a flash of brilliance and I hope it'll act as a guiding light for future hot ideas.

Besides, if you can't handle the heat...


----------



## fynn

dont smoke???............lol


----------



## modelling-mayhem

I'd Happily put my house and money on the fact that WH and DH are up next! The foundations are already set for this...

Codex = Removed from sale
Models = Removed from sale

Everyone is chatting about DE or Crons next up and this month and that month blah blah!! But the one thing they are over looking is the fact that:

DE = still available on many Indie sites for sale - and no not just left over stock
Crons = Still available too!

Go figure!! I think we are set for DH and WH definately, and im more than happy to stand in defence of my opinion. Whether this will be a combined Dex or seperates I am not in the light but as far as the pdf's being released on GW site these are just 3rd ed.

If they were anything else then GW would have them placed in WD and charge us £4 to have a nosy at!!

Btw Hello Heresy : )

Regards
Tim


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Vhalyar, one could ask you the same thing. From where have you heard that DE are next, has GW said they are next?


Don't get me wrong, you know I've been on the forefront of the rumors for a good while now, even clinging to the hope of GK this year until it seemed like fate would no longer have it so. :biggrin: That makes me the naysayer, but then again it does bring some much needed perspective on the topic. At the very least, this part of my statement is perfectly true: there will only be one more codex this year (usual warning of unforeseen events yada yada).

Someone said that there are still six months to go, which is not true. July and August are filled. December is never a codex month. That leaves 3 months, and codices are never released so close to each other that two of them could fit in that time frame.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well, we need a naysayer 
At least thats what the first Horus Heresy book taught me 

I really hope its not a combined codex but I have a feeling it will be. Id rather have the sisters fleshed out into their own codex like 2ed but then again a codex based solely on the GK seems a bit boring to be honest.

Only time will tell I suppose 
But waiting sure sucks :crazy:

Oh, hello Modelling-Mayhem 
Any eta on free shipping in EU?
What about tax free export to none tax union EU members?


----------



## modelling-mayhem

Hello MadCowCrazy,

Hope you are well, great forum thread you have here : )

Now as for the Free shipping internationally - We have set up international shipping now and it is very very cheap, in fact so so very very cheap. We will soon offer free shipping but it will be on orders over a set amount to europe.

Tax free Imports - Im afraid like other companies we are in the same boat, and at the moment will not be offering this to our customers. As much as we would like to it isnt possible at the moment.

But instead we are offering cheap low prices so that surely makes up for the import tax : )

Sorry if this is not the answer you were hoping for : (

Regards

Tim


----------



## Azezel

Weren't the .pdf codices supposed to be due 'the first week of June'?

I didn't get White Dorf but I'm sure that's what I heard.


----------



## GrizBe

They were meant to be....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yeah, called GW about it. Guy told me they should be up this month or next.
WTF, first they told me it should be out first week of June, now its sometime this month or next?!


----------



## GrizBe

Maybe someones talked some sense into them thats its slightly crazy releasing 3rd ed rules when the 5th ed codex is most probably out within the next few months....?


----------



## Azezel

This month or next?

Curiouser and curiouser. Given the delay, do we think there's any danger of 5th edition updates to the .pdf?


----------



## Shandathe

There aren't.

I asked GW last week. The answer was sadly definite.



GW said:


> All this up and coming PDF is the current rules from the Codex’s that are no longer available, to ensure gamers still have a source of reference, until the given time a new codex may be released.


Between this and another mail, I'm also certain an update is in the works but nobody at GW is willing/allowed to officially confirm it (yet) let alone give a SPECIFIC timeframe in which it'll happen. Which is just how GW rolls...


----------



## DonFer

Are there any good reasons to think a new COMBINED Codex is underway? I mean, I know both factions belong to the iquisition, but there must be a pretty good explanation why they released 2 codex instead of one, on 3rd. Personally I don't see why should they put both armies together now, if they didn't in the past. Any thoughts?


----------



## GrizBe

Yes and no....

Its been said by people who work for GW that there defiantely won't be a a combined codex.... 

... yet, recently, theres been several rumours and people with insider knowledge suggesting that there might be.

I've come to think there might either be a Total =I= codex, containing the forces of the Inquisition, inquisitors, stormtroopers, Deathwatch and Grey Knights. AND a seperate Ecclesiarchy Codex featuring the clerics and preists and the SoB's.


----------



## Azezel

Jervis said that rumours of a combined codex were 'fanwank' his exact word. Though that was some time ago.

As I understand it, back in the day, the intention was to publish three =][= codices - but that proved rather too ambitious. (They'd just published the Inquisitor 54mm game and saw these codices as, frankly, advertising for that game.)


The argument for combining all Inquisitorial forces into a single book is that, well, they're all inquisitorial forces. Q.E.D. A single book would save having to print the same units (Inqusitors, Lords, Stormtroopers etc) in multiple books too.

The arguments against a combined Codex =][= is that, to do two, or even three distinct armies justice, the book would be so large you'd need to hire a team of eunuchs and a reinforced litter to haul it around for you.


That said, there are, well, not even rumours, more like wishlisting, of three books: 

Codex: Grey Knights (Containing only GK)
Codex: sisters of Battle (Only SoB)

And Codex Inquisition - which, people say, would contain Inquisitors and lords for all three Ordos, Stormtroopers, Assassins and rules for using other Imperial forces in an =][= army.

This is very unlikely, though. Not least because GW no longer like allies.


----------



## hungryugolino

They're idiots.


----------



## Nitetime

fanwank. Oh my.


----------



## Karnox

I hope they keep allies, I mean how else am I meant to beef up my scrawny guard if I cant give them space marines with shiny armor and str 6 weapons?

And what will happen to my marvelous assassin who is the only model in my army to have never died?
I cant be expected to get a new army just so I can use him, though I think that is what GW would want.

Still even if I cant ally them I would get an Inquisition army and I think it would be much handier having DW, SoB and GK all in one codex, cause their variety independently was almost as limited as necrons, but those are just mass produced T101s so its understandable.

I can see GW making it 2 or 3 armies, but if it was any other company with a common courtesy for its consumers they would make just the one.

GK players can stay GK players, SoB can stay SoB and a lot of other people might want a bit of both. And if they keep SoB with all the inquisitors and stuff and just add extra marine stuff to the GK then is that not pretty much making a new space marine chapter book?

I dunno... I just hope they dont fcuk this up.


----------



## GrizBe

Karnox said:


> I hope they keep allies, I mean how else am I meant to beef up my scrawny guard if I cant give them space marines with shiny armor and str 6 weapons?


I think thats why they'd probably cut allies.. to many people were using them to beef up the flaws in their own armies rather then trying to tactically work with it.


----------



## Necrosis

Well I wouldn't be to surprised if allies system stayed. I mean have any of you read the new fantasy rumors?


----------



## Azezel

Necrosis said:


> Well I wouldn't be to surprised if allies system stayed. I mean have any of you read the new fantasy rumors?


You mean I can finally take Lizardmen as allies?


Um... anyway - GW seem to want to kill off the allies rules, at least in 40k, due to the number of exploits afforded. I'm looking at you, Mystics and Psychic Hoods.


----------



## superwill

In many ways it seems as though DH were created purely to ally in. The emphasis the codex places on it, and the fact that DH don't even work very well as the parent list, left the only reasonable use for DH to be taking a single choice or two in a guard, SM or SoB list.

It'll be awesome to see a true standalone codex, without every guard player saying "oh you've got one of those? So do I."


----------



## DonFer

I think the main focus of GW is to improve the current SoB and DH situation. They should release a Codex that allows us to play any of those armies without the use of the allies rule, as a standalone army. Then again, being the inquisition, it can be interesting to see a pure Inquisition Army, but this is just stretching it a little too far IMHO.


----------



## spudboy

Simplest solution to worrying about "allies" is to include marines, guard troopers, etc., as choices in an inquisition codex, but add requirements for a minimum number of Grey Knights, SoB, etc., in the army list before they can be included.


----------



## Kettu

Not sure how much this helps but every little thing, you know.



viking657 said:


> Dear XXXX,
> 
> I just wanted to drop you a quick line to thank you for your recent letter, and apologise for the very late reply. Unfortunately the number of letters I recieve means that I can't reply personally to all of them, but I did want to let you know that I had recieved and read yours, and really appreciated the fact you took the time to write. Please don't hesitate to get in touch again; I read all of the mail I recieve and find it really helps to keep me in touch with the grass roots of the hobby.
> 
> Then its signed by Jervis
> 
> P.S Don't worry, neither the Grey Knights nor the Sisters have been forgotten. We have plans for both - its just that, like the Dark Eldar, it will take a while for these plans to reach fruition.


viking657's final common in the post is we should all start writing into GW.
I think this might be a good idea if we can get enough people writing in then we might hear something soon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BTP mentions in one of their vids posted today that GK will be coming out this year and that DE will get replaced soon.

Will GW try to squeeze in 2 releases more this year or what, Im not sure what is going on any more.
Ive read on warseer their speculation about a September release for 1 codex and a surprise December release for another but GW has never released a codex in December.
I wouldnt be surprised if they did release GK for Dec with the stormraven kit, so that every little kid would wish for a stormraven for xmas.
Or maybe both DE and GK at the same time, since from what Ive read they arnt huge sellers so it would make sense to release them at the same time. But if the rumours are true this would be the biggest release in GW history afaik.


----------



## GrizBe

December does seem unlikely given GW's past record... but, as stated, doing them with the Stormraven kit then would be a huge seller.

2 at once? Also seems unlikely, if only for the simple reason most people will only buy one or the other, and having both come out in one month, they'll buy the army they prefer thinking 'Hmm... both are out but I can only afford one, I'll just get x and not bother with y', rather then thinking 'Oh, x is cool, I'll buy some of them'.


----------



## DonFer

I don't know what to do, I'm building a GK army and need to buy some more GKs. Should i wait or buy now??? AAGH! The suspense is killing me!:angry::biggrin:


----------



## Karnox

I say wait... it wont be too long, they will be less expensive, and will most likely look cooler. Just get some vehicals for your greyknights for now.


----------



## DonFer

Just browsed Amazon for GKs. Most of the GK figures are unavailable (there are only the Psycannon GK and TGK, BC Stern and the Terminator box) A month ago you could purchase the entire line. 

Is this a sign of things to come? Is it just that stores are holding back because they know something is stirring in GW? Or is it that they simply ran out? Note that Amazon states: "We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock." :shok:


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

f****** amazon, i wouldnt trust em to c*** in a bucket. slavers dont need to know if or when a product is coming out though, so it means nothing


----------



## DonFer

Such strong feelings, you really do hate them right?


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

used to work for em till i left cos how they treated christmas staff(unpaid labour). back on topic though, i hope the GK get released this year, if only for the players. they deserve it methinks


----------



## Dynamike

I just don't get why it would take so much time just to get codexes they already have in a file and put it online. Does it requires that much editing or they are simply waiting around?


----------



## Azezel

I have no idea what it means, but some Sisters of Battle models have had a price increase (which wasn't supposed to be the case according to the official list of prices hiked in the last... er, price hike).

The Three Sister Blister has gone from £9 to £10.50 and most Sisters superior have gone from £7 to £7.50.

The Exorcist has gone from £30 to £35 and heavy weapons have also gone up, but Special Weapons and the Immolator seem to have stayed the same price.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lies I tell ya, you will still be around. Just in case I find something interesting


Absolute rubbish of the first class:angry:, I most definately won't........................
oh alright then



Azezel said:


> I have no idea what it means, but some Sisters of Battle models have had a price increase


it's all a bit of a mess, 
some are being repackaged for a price increase, some look likely to go direct only, not sure about GK stuff but I expect the same will be happening


----------



## DonFer

So far all theories have been wrong. So bottomline is no one knows what's coming next! maybe a new Space Marines Codex 2.0 hahaha... err ... I'm going insane.


----------



## andrewm9

Bindi Baji said:


> Absolute rubbish of the first class:angry:, I most definately won't........................
> oh alright then
> 
> 
> 
> it's all a bit of a mess,
> some are being repackaged for a price increase, some look likely to go direct only, not sure about GK stuff but I expect the same will be happening


Wow a price increase on likely the most expensive army that GW sells that sure to cuase more to be sold. It already costs 122 USD to buy a proper squad and their Rhino of SoB. How much more do they think they are going to get from WH players? Having the codex go PDF isn't going to help the line either. At this point only a new codex alogn with cheaper plastic is going to make it work for the WH/SoB army. The same is probably true for a DH/GK army.

Nothing against you BTW Bindi, its just I'm not sure how GW thinks the army is supposed to sell. Its almost like they don't want to sell any more IMO.


----------



## Azezel

That's the impression I get, Andrew.

Short of actually being eaten by 'nids I don't know how much more GW could do to kill off an army.

The Exorcist and Heavy Weapons are already direct only - I would not be surprised to see the rest go the same way. But 'repackaged for a price increase'? S'far as I can tell, they've already _had_ the price increase - one not part of the regular price hike. And what kind of repackaging is possible with models available only in blister packs?

It really is a mess. Let's revue:

1) We are almost certain that no army will be squatted - GW said exactly that.
2) word is that the Sisters will appear in a future Codex, but not the same one as the GK.
3) Legend has it there are new Sisters models in production - one with wrist-mounted storm bolters, and one with twin cats-o-nine-tails.
4) GW are being very tardy with the promised .pdf 3e Codex.
5) GW are aparantly _trying_ not to sell any Sisters now.
6) Indie retailers seem unable to order any Sisters models.

Best case scenario: Sisters are much closer than anyone thinks and GW are trying to keep people from spending money on soon-to-be outdated models.

Worst Case Scenario: GW don't have to squat an army if they just give that army no support and never mention it again.

Place ya bets.


----------



## hungryugolino

It's Games Workshop. Go for the worst case.


----------



## DonFer

SoBs soon to be archived in some black vault under GW headquarters for all eternity. No company in their right mind increases prices of a product that is unsupported for nearly 4 years now. This is not good news for us DH players either. Should I start looking for another army?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

With the "news" about the fantasy release in September this pretty much leaves us with a single slot for 40K left this year.
Its really hard to speculate on which it will be simply because of the different rumours floating around.
Its basically rumour mongers vs webshops. The rumour ppl claim DE and some webshops think GK.

I put up my thoughts in the rumours section, tell me what you guys think.

I got promoted to moderator so I am now able to update this threads title to show when new stuff has been added, so if you dont care about reading what people speculate about you can just check the title for when new rumours have been added to it 

Enjoy


----------



## Kettu

DonFer said:


> No company in their right mind increases prices of a product that is unsupported for nearly 4 years now.


Sorry, that's wrong.

Nearly six years now. (Came out mid-2004, right before 4th ed went and obsoleted several rules)

As for GW's lovely choices to increase prices.
Aus is unaffected.

We still pay the most on Sisters though.

As for 'they'll be done before 6th ed'. That is a problem. Sisters were updated before 3rd and they had a total life-span of three months.
Sisters were updated before 4th and half a dozen rules were rendered obsolete or null and void.
So how about they wait till 6th and Make Sisters the FIRST one out.
Hell, you could even have the battlebox Sisters vs Rogue/Traitor/Heretical Chapter.
Ah well, Sisters of Battle Codex, Circa the Apocalypse.


----------



## elektra

Hi all,
been following this thread with interest but until now i don't normally post.I sent an email to Jervis Johnson a few weeks ago about the current state of Sisters of Battle(my only army).I recieved a reply today and after reading through the normal "nice to keep in touch with the grass roots of the hobby" he went on to say that Sisters were definately not being Sqatted,scrapped or got rid of in any shape or form.Unfortunately he wouldn't divulge anything about new releases,can't blame him for that.
So this should at least tell us that SOB are being thought of if not being reworked.
My own personal opinion of the current rumours regarding SOB are that due to the pulling of the codex and certain box sets and more importantly the lack of anything romour wise to do with SOB points to a well guarded new release for the codex and models,whether it be this year or early next no-one really knows we can just speculate.
I think the lack of anything rumour wise to do with this army and the amount of other rumours for other armies would definately help GW in deflecting interest away from a surprise SOB release.
This just my thoughts but it has been nagging at me and getting stronger the more i hear nothing about them.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

first off, Hi elektra! thanks for posting your info/thoughts. i too have this niggling thought in the back of my head that somethings up, theres just too many mentions of surprises from gw over the last few months in the WD and online. its just random. maybe there is a slight ripple in the warp, i dont know, but its frustrating to say the least! oh well, back to making heavy flamer sisters out of old dark elves and immo bits...


----------



## DonFer

Sorry for the mistake, been such a long time I keep loosing count. I hope Gamesday is the date where we hear some good news for SoB and GKs, and really hope GW doesn't send mindless mouthless automatons to avoid giving some hints of things to come...


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> With the "news" about the fantasy release in September this pretty much leaves us with a single slot for 40K left this year.
> Its really hard to speculate on which it will be simply because of the different rumours floating around.


It is DE next unfortunately (well in a way i'm glad as the DE players have been going on like you lot for 3+ years)
GK's are still not that far off, I believe january but after my last guess I will have to be careful with my choice of words.

Additionally going by the chatter i'm hearing the inquisition supplement/codex/thingamy (or whatever it actually ends up being called) has now started and will be a book featuring lots and lots of stuff 
(missions, fluff, organisation charts, more fluff, inquisitor ally rules, paper, biscuit crumbs and so on)

Some work is currently being done on the SOB codex, but don't hold your breath as I believe it is currently the 4th codex in line (not including the inquisitor whatdyamacallit)


----------



## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> ...as I believe it is currently the 4th codex in line (not including the inquisitor whatdyamacallit)


So the order would be DE, GK, Nec then SoB?

And I guess your previous guess of 18 months away still holds?

So I guess 6th ed is just 19-20 months away then, complete with full rules rework just to keep with tradition then, huh?


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> GK's are still not that far off, I believe january but after my last guess I will have to be careful with my choice of words.


Couldn't be helped, everyone down to Harry was convinced of the same thing. It doesn't devalue your previous contributions 
I'm curious if you still think that it'll be GK centric or some sort of combined Inquisition though.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> So the order would be DE, GK, Nec then SoB?
> 
> And I guess your previous guess of 18 months away still holds?


something like that and 18 months ish, depending entirely on how many codexes we see next year, I understand there is another marine codex further away that may be bumped up if things go tits up on "crons" or "sob".



Vhalyar said:


> I'm curious if you still think that it'll be GK centric or some sort of combined Inquisition though.


there is definately an inquisition supplement/codex/thingamy/expansion/g-string that sounds likely for next year,
I do know it will feature a good few inquisitor's, their retinue and no bananas(that's entirely a guess, it may include bananas).

I believe (but don't know) that there will be no inquisitors in either the GK or SOB codexes/codecii/codecexii/cocodamol/coconuts,
however the inquisitor supplement/codex/thingamy/expansion/g-string will allow inquisitors to commandeer/ally with any imperial forces,
meaning you can still have inquisitors with your GK/SOB if you so wish.

*There really is no "combined inquisition codex", it is complete wishlisting/chinese whispers*


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> I understand there is another marine codex further away that may be bumped up if things go tits up on "crons" or "sob".


Oh joy.


Anyway - weren't Tau due sometime in the next 12-24 months?

Oh, and MadCowCrazy - congrats on modship!


----------



## Karnox

As long as I can add some inquisition stuff to my guard. I love the inquisition, but I also love guard and I dont want to just start an inquisition army, cause usually when I start a new army my old ones become retired and my guard have been with me the longest.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Anyway - weren't Tau due sometime in the next 12-24 months?


I haven't heard so much as a bean on Tau at all


----------



## Underground Heretic

I'd believe Bindi about Tau. As much as I would like to see my favorite fish people get some love, we can do some really nasty things in 5th edition. Also, it's the bananaman, who wouldn't believe that smile? Why I just bought some very nice beachfront property in Montana from him.


----------



## Azezel

As much as I hate to admit it ('cos I do like Tau, and might well collect them if they had a dex I liked) I'm glad Tau aren't on the horizon. I don't want yet another dex between now and SoB.


----------



## Karnox

I really dont think Tau are begging the greater good for an upgrade anyway, I mean they only thing they lack is any stable CC units, but if you can kill it before it gets close to you, you might as well have killed it in CC. Same with eldar, I saw them swat a chaos army like a nurgling fly. Its really only DE the inquisition and necrons that need a tune up I think, Even necrons are okay just that they arent too fun as an army to collect and paint up seeing as how they are all metal and have very little variety. And the inquisition still work quite well too, its just the points cost are way too high, I mean if I want imperial stormtroopers in a chimera I need to pay 70 points for it, while the guardsmen beside them are laughing cause theirs only cost 55.

So the way I see it its gonna be DE, SoB, GK, Inquisition, Necrons, Tau and then either do something with eldar or start the cycle at marines again. Of course some of those slots might be taken up by Marine chapters such as BT, but I think thats how its gonna happen.


----------



## the.alleycat.uk

I think CSM players may disagree with your order there ;p


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> *There really is no "combined inquisition codex", it is complete wishlisting/chinese whispers*


Most wonderful.


----------



## oblivion8

I think a Nec/ Sob release (I mean released one after another) makes sense, because SoB were the first ones to make contact with the necs, so It wouldnt suprise me if their fluff was tied intogether more in the new dex's


----------



## GrizBe

Well technically... from that, there WILL be a combined Inquisition codex... except, we're getting it as a pure =I= codex, with GK's and SoB's getting a seperate one.


----------



## Bindi Baji

the.alleycat.uk said:


> I think CSM players may disagree with your order there ;p


CSM players disagree with everything and everyone at the moment,
I heavily suspect when they do eventually get their new codex they will get well and truly spoiled



GrizBe said:


> Well technically... from that, there WILL be a combined Inquisition codex... except, we're getting it as a pure =I= codex, with GK's and SoB's getting a seperate one.


----------



## GrizBe

I know, I'm made of win  lol


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon

Karnox said:


> Even necrons are okay just that they arent too fun as an army to collect and paint up seeing as how they are all metal and have very little variety.


Sorry, but I've got to disagree here. The Necrons' problem is that our main gig in 40k is supposed to be vehicle face-wrecking. Those auto-glances used to be good in 4th, but because of the new vehicle table in 5th, we get boned by glances be equivalent to throwing pebbles at a tank in regards to potential damage. We also need a decent CC unit that isn't slow and marinated in failsauce (Flayed Ones) or ridiculously expensive and non-Necron (Pariahs).


----------



## Karnox

hmm, I guess so. True I used to love deepstriking a swarm of scarabs beside a land raider and just ripping it apart. Dont play necrons now though so didnt think about the chart. I'd say necrons would have a universal rule where glancing will be -1 rather than -2, then you can still wreck stuff on a 6


----------



## FatBoyFat

Had a quick browse, so just confirming, or telling this.. don't know if it was said before, but I popped into the my local gw store, got talking about the new whfb, then about armies, then about what we were looking forward too, and one of the guys said that Daemon Hunters are more then likely coming out straight after daemons, late September time, so maybe for a game day release!


----------



## GrizBe

Thats one of the suspected happenings and what seems to be comming out of most people and the stores staff now...


----------



## Khorothis

Duh, GW could really put DHs off 'till next year, if for nothing else but to decrease the SM/year statistics. But the moment my girls are out they'll be ripping their asses apart and burning them along with their ridiculousness.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

FatBoyFat said:


> Had a quick browse, so just confirming, or telling this.. don't know if it was said before, but I popped into the my local gw store, got talking about the new whfb, then about armies, then about what we were looking forward too, and one of the guys said that Daemon Hunters are more then likely coming out straight after daemons, late September time, so maybe for a game day release!


This is basically where we are standing atm.

The rumours people Pie-man etc are saying DE are next and GK in Jan while a few stores modellmayhem, bluetablepainting etc are saying GK are next or will be out later this year.

Im starting to think DE are next but Im usually wrong so hopefully this will mean GK are next 

Either way Im starting a new army when either comes out


----------



## Azezel

bitsandkits said:


> But [removal of Codices and kits from retail and trades sales] is the exact process that has happened every time we get a new codex for as long as i have been buying from GW trade sales.In my eyes and my opinion WH are next in line after deamons based on my experience.





bitsandkits said:


> So i would say using GW's standard procedures WH are due in early autumn for the run up to xmas along with Warhammer fantasy box set and if Dark Eldar are coming soon they will get the Febuary big release spot





modelling-mayhem said:


> I'd Happily put my house and money on the fact that WH and DH are up next! The foundations are already set for this...
> 
> Codex = Removed from sale
> Models = Removed from sale
> 
> Everyone is chatting about DE or Crons next up and this month and that month blah blah!! But the one thing they are over looking is the fact that:
> 
> DE = still available on many Indie sites for sale - and no not just left over stock
> Crons = Still available too!
> 
> Go figure!! I think we are set for DH and WH definately, and im more than happy to stand in defence of my opinion. Whether this will be a combined Dex or seperates I am not in the light [...]





Bindi Baji said:


> the best chance of any SOB stuff coming in the next year will be repackaging, anything else is baseless speculation at this point


I'm curious how indie traders like B&K and MM are betting now?

Are DE still available for trade sales?


----------



## GrizBe

I'm wondering this myself considering I can still walk into my local store and pretty much pick up any DE product right off the shelves, whereas they have nothing DH or WH related. 

You'd think if DE where next, given that we know the entire range is getting a redo, and given that they always take the products off the sheles at least 3 months before the new ones due... they'd be off the shelves and sales right now. Pretty much says to me we defiantely won't see them before October...


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> I'm wondering this myself considering I can still walk into my local store and pretty much pick up any DE product right off the shelves, whereas they have nothing DH or WH related.


the reason that there is a lack of DH/WH items in store is that dh/wh stuff is being repackaged


----------



## GrizBe

Well the plastic GKPA and GKTA we know are comming aren't


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> the reason that there is a lack of DH/WH items in store is that dh/wh stuff is being repackaged


Finally... I've been waiting so long for repackage DH/WH...

/sarcasm off

Phil

ps, thanks for the info, BB, I know you're just the messenger, so I'm definitely not shooting at you!!!


----------



## andrewm9

Bindi Baji said:


> the reason that there is a lack of DH/WH items in store is that dh/wh stuff is being repackaged


Why bother repackaging them to chaneg them in 12 to 18 months? Are they going to ditch the lame stormbolter or give a Sister Superior figure that doesn't have a plasma pistol? Are they going to be cheaper?

I suspect none of the above will happen but if it does I will be pleasantly shocked. Really sales will likely not be improved by a repackage.

Again I'm not taking shots at you BB, but I'm interested in some real intel. A repackagae sounds good, but I wonder to what end?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> the reason that there is a lack of DH/WH items in store is that dh/wh stuff is being repackaged


I have a feeling this is whats happening.

Its some kind of marketing ploy by GW.
Remove the most needed models (except sisters repentia) for WH and DH for the greater part of the year, sell blisters for outrageous prices, then give out the PDFs for free together with new, more expensive than before, repackaged boxes with the same old models = Happy GW Executives laughing at the crying fanbase.


----------



## Azezel

Read into this what you will, but a mate says that he heard from a blackshirt (as in, this is _third hand_ information) that the .pdf versions of WH and DH have been delayed by 'Ard Boyz.

Apparantly, GW were worried about competitors rolling up with printouts of the .pdf subtley modified to give their army a power boost.

Frankly - I can beileive it - WH and DH are rare enough that a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a legit printout and a modified one.

If this is the case, expect the .pdfs after the 'Ard Boyz final on July 17th.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Read into this what you will, but a mate says that he heard from a blackshirt (as in, this is _third hand_ information) that the .pdf versions of WH and DH have been delayed by 'Ard Boyz.
> 
> Apparantly, GW were worried about competitors rolling up with printouts of the .pdf subtley modified to give their army a power boost.
> 
> Frankly - I can beileive it - WH and DH are rare enough that a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a legit printout and a modified one.
> 
> If this is the case, expect the .pdfs after the 'Ard Boyz final on July 17th.


I find this a very unlikely scenario, everybody seems to be throwing a paddy because the pdf's weren't released by lunchtime on the first of june and I suspect this is speculation because of that


----------



## bitsandkits

Sorry but i dont buy this repackaging story, why invest time and money to print new boxes when the codex is no longer in print? they have had years to change the packaging to the new format,makes no sense to spend money now to do it and if all they were doing was repackaging they should have been back on the site by now, sisters have been removed from sale for nearly four months, And if they were doing new photos and art for the boxes they dont need to remove the old stock from the site or from indie vendors, many items have been repackaged in the past without any form of interuption in sales. Most of the battle forces and army boxes have had new art and new size boxes in the last twelve months including the dark eldar and none of them have had an interuption in sales, same goes for the nids who had several boxes change ncluding the fex getting a slimmer box and new art, guants were split and got new art, warriors got new art, same also is true with packing changes to imperial guard, they got new boxes and art and shrunk and there stock ran out due to rumours of the smaller box size but even then they were only missing from sale for a few weeks.
I still say Sisters will be with us by christmas


----------



## GrizBe

Thats my reasoning on that too.


----------



## bitsandkits

I forgot to add that GW send out direct only sets without artwork anyway so rather than withdraw the range from sale they could have just sold them as direct only and use the generic citadel box they use for iron hands or last chancers etc


----------



## GrizBe

And that would be the other reason why just reboxing them is unlikely.

That said, since we know plastics are comming... if the designs are similar enough, they could be repacking the metals as blister packs...


----------



## Dynamike

Contacted GW customer service today inquiring about the PDF of DH/WH.

I asked when it would be out and was answered that the White Dwarf went ahead of GW for the release and should be out by the end of the month.

Then I asked if there would be any changes to them and was answered "I would assume so but I really don't know for sure".

Either I was given a hint or not, I cannot confirm. But either way, it should be out soon and we'll see what this is all about.

Wishing the best to all DH/WH players and all the future ones!


----------



## Baron Spikey

It might just mean they're including any FAQ changes into the Codexes themselves.


----------



## smitty23

*=][= DH WH Compilation Thread Updated : 19/06/2010*

Well, most of you already know this im sure but with all of the rumors going around about the Inquisition getting a new codex i thought this was odd.

The Grey knights are no longer available on Games workshop.

Grey knight terminators are despatched in 5 to 6 weeks. (Despatch meaning discontinued im assuming since nothing should take 5 to 6 weeks to ship out in america. And since they use the word ships in all their other shipping times.)

Lord coteaz same deal. Despatched in 3 to 4 weeks. 

SO...You guys think this means its really happening and soon? (the new dex i mean) I mean you cant even buy the troop choices for the old dex anymore except on amazon and ebay or a store that has a dusty box. And the termies too. Perhaps its a subtle hint. Maybe not. Ur thoughts?:drinks:


----------



## Barnster

Their still on the Uk website


----------



## GrizBe

Friend was just telling us it was the same deal with SoB's for them... Celestine being 4-6 weeks as well as other troop units. At least on the US site.

Most things I'm hearing are pointing at Games Day Uk for a release... soo September. Things starting to disapear now would be in line with the 3 month in advance clearance of old GW normal does with new releases.

GK Terms... its pretty much 99.9% fact they're going plastic... so this is in line with that too.


----------



## Marneus Calgar

Ok, well, 4 - 5 weeks sounds as if they are being cast to order, rather than en masse. Meaning they are discontinuing the current models. My personal opinion is that they are like the space wolves, their range got discontinued in the January as they were rereleased in the September. Something big for GD again? Maybe


----------



## Warlock in Training

Way of the Squats. At least till I see a new Dex.


----------



## GrizBe

GW's said they'd getting a new codex.. so defiantely not squatted. Its just When thats the problem.


----------



## Bindi Baji

The pdf's are being put up on some websites at the moment


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

yep, and at first glance nothing different.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Both DH and WH codex are on GW site respectively. Just DL them myself.


----------



## fynn

just all the fluff and cult lists at back of the WH book are gone.
oh well, will just sit back and watchs what happens over the next few months for any solid news, and not wishlisting or BS


----------



## Me-dea

Where can I download the PDFs please? I can't find it.


----------



## boreas

> You ordered the following items:
> 
> Q Item Cost
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 Citadel Burnished Gold £1.91
> 1 Warhammer Fantasy Hardback Rulebook £38.25


WH40k can go to hell... See you in a year, DH/WH... <vicious expletive> fail by GW. They can take stuff out but not update other thing? Idiots...

Feel free to let them know: [email protected]

Phil


----------



## bitsandkits

boreas said:


> WH40k can go to hell... See you in a year, DH/WH... <vicious expletive> fail by GW. They can take stuff out but not update other thing? Idiots...
> 
> Feel free to let them know: [email protected]
> 
> Phil


ehhh? what we emailing them for again?


----------



## boreas

Revenge :biggrin: Just tell them we are unhappy. If they get 12476654 emails, one of them will make it to the top. Remember the 5th ed. FAQs when they first came out? Well enough complaining made them re-update the FAQs.

Phil


----------



## DonFer

No more PAGKs to be found either at GW Site or Amazon. What is happening GW??? :threaten:


----------



## andrewm9

DonFer said:


> No more PAGKs to be found either at GW Site or Amazon. What is happening GW??? :threaten:


They should still be available just not in the pack of 5. It basically boils down to the minimum squad of 5 being 47.75 USD.


----------



## Shandathe

Yeah. And the situation for the Sisters is actually worse. 

So, in short, we now have shiny PDFs that's utterly useless for drawing in new players - unless they're millionaires - due to a lack of models. They're ALSO mostly useless to existing players given that we already HAVE these codexes in paper. 

Boreas might have the right idea, but if I switch games, I'm switching AWAY from GW to a company with a clue and some fucking transparancy.


----------



## andrewm9

Shandathe said:


> Yeah. And the situation for the Sisters is actually worse.
> 
> So, in short, we now have shiny PDFs that's utterly useless for drawing in new players - unless they're millionaires - due to a lack of models. They're ALSO mostly useless to existing players given that we already HAVE these codexes in paper.
> 
> Boreas might have the right idea, but if I switch games, I'm switching AWAY from GW to a company with a clue and some fucking transparancy.


Don't I know it. A squad of Sisters with a vet, heavy flamer, meltagun, and a Rhino is 122+ dollars. You get 12 Sisters with that plus a vehicle that can double as an Immolator. Its as I've said elsewhere, currently Sisters are the most expensive army to buy at the moment.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wrote a rather angry letter to gw asking to where I can return my unopened WH and DH models. At this point in time Id rather return them, start another army and get back to sisters in a year or two when a new dex comes out 


Im hoping they will tell us something about their plans for updates or at least something, but I doubt it.


> In other, non-Warhammer related news, we've added both the Witch Hunters: Codex and the Daemonhunters: Codex to the Astronomican. You can now download both of these for free. This is great news for all 40K fans so tomorrow I'll drag myself away from the Warhammer world and talk a bit more about them.


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Bindi Baji said:


> the reason that there is a lack of DH/WH items in store is that dh/wh stuff is being repackaged


it's also been mentioned by scryer elsewhere,
I do wonder why no one ever takes any notice of bb here.
he seems to have more of a following at seer and dakka then here


----------



## GrizBe

Its because he's been proved wrong on a couple of points here.


----------



## IntereoVivo

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050287a_Codex__Daemonhunters

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050291a_Codex__Witch_Hunters

DH & WH PDFs on G-W.com


----------



## Azezel

Nemesis-The-Warlock said:


> it's also been mentioned by scryer elsewhere,
> I do wonder why no one ever takes any notice of bb here.
> he seems to have more of a following at seer and dakka then here


It's not that we don't believe Bindi Baji - it'd be fairer to say that we have difficulty believing that Games Workshop is mad enough to do the things he says they're doing.


Repackaging sisters? Do me a lemon. What possible reason could the company have, and how can they take five months to do it?

I'm not saying he's not right, just that the rational brain has difficulty accepting madness and subconciously flees the harbinger thereof.

Case in point - no matter how many times BB and others said that the .pdf codices would be unmodified, no-one could quite believe it, and yet, here we are...


----------



## mahavira

Thoroughly unmodified: just checked and WH are -still- the only army that can take a Land Raider that is not an assault vehicle and has a substandard "machine spirit" rule. I always thought that was some kind of errata.


----------



## Azezel

Nope - it's not in the official errata. They were quick enough to errata the things that gave WH an advantage - like the Inferno Pistol not having the Melta rule - but damned if they are going to errata the negatives.

Anyway - if they intend to release a new codex in September, it should be anounced three months beforehand, right? In other words, any day now - particularly if the release is Games Day?


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Nope - it's not in the official errata. They were quick enough to errata the things that gave WH an advantage - like the Inferno Pistol not having the Melta rule - but damned if they are going to errata the negatives.
> 
> Anyway - if they intend to release a new codex in September, it should be anounced three months beforehand, right? In other words, any day now - particularly if the release is Games Day?


This is one of the reasons I was hoping for a combined codex: either they have to nerf GK Land Raiders too or give ordo hereticus correct ones. It's kind of wierd given that one of the writers worked on both books, you'd think he'd have noticed (or wondered why blessed oils etc. make GK flamers ignore invulnerable saves but make WH flamers scarier even to races like Orks and Tau who probably can't tell the difference and wouldn't care if they could). That and I don't want them to have an excuse to delay sisters even longer...


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Its because he's been proved wrong on a couple of points here.


on *one* occasion admittedly, but this isn't a thread about me so carry on


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> That and I don't want them to have an excuse to delay sisters even longer...


Over at GW HQ
Jervis : Gooday men, how can we piss off the fans today?
Board member 1 : Lets release a PDF version of the WH and DH codicies for free!
Jervis : FOR FREE!! HAVE YOU GONE MAD?!
Board member 1 : No no, hear me out. We remove all the things that make DH a competitive force, remove all the fluff, painting stuff, FOC and a few pages at random. We dont update them in any way, not even with the FAQ information that has been out for years. Then we make sure all the different languages have inconsistent rules, we update some, we leave some out and dont update the majority!
Jervis : EXCELLENT! That should really screw some of the fans over! You get a raise!
Board member 2 : How about we then release the same old models in repackaged boxes, charge 10% more for them and call them a new release like we did with the Basilisk tank earlier this year.
Jervis : I like it, this is getting better and better but it needs something more. I know, I will make a statement the day after the codicies are out in PDF claiming we are working on new codicies and that people should buy models now because they will be coming soon! but we wont release them until just before 6ed and make sure 6ed makes 75% of the rules in it obsolete!!!
Whole Board : clap clap clap clap clap! Jervis! You are the best!
Jervis : I know :so_happy:


You can call this a premonition if you like


----------



## boreas

You just gave me a sarcasm overdose... Fortunately, I treated myself with GW-induced nerdrage.

Phil


----------



## DonFer

GrizBe said:


> Its because he's been proved wrong on a couple of points here.


Repacking seem very unlikely. Why on earth would GW retire their products, loosing profit in the process, repack and after that sell the same product? I know they are a bit odd at times but repacking seems like a strange choice (bordering the idiotic) that would only damage them. It may be possible but there must be some common sense left in GW.


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> Over at GW HQ
> Jervis : Gooday men, how can we piss off the fans today?
> Board member 1 : Lets release a PDF version of the WH and DH codicies for free!
> Jervis : FOR FREE!! HAVE YOU GONE MAD?!
> Board member 1 : No no, hear me out. We remove all the things that make DH a competitive force, remove all the fluff, painting stuff, FOC and a few pages at random. We dont update them in any way, not even with the FAQ information that has been out for years. Then we make sure all the different languages have inconsistent rules, we update some, we leave some out and dont update the majority!
> Jervis : EXCELLENT! That should really screw some of the fans over! You get a raise!
> Board member 2 : How about we then release the same old models in repackaged boxes, charge 10% more for them and call them a new release like we did with the Basilisk tank earlier this year.
> Jervis : I like it, this is getting better and better but it needs something more. I know, I will make a statement the day after the codicies are out in PDF claiming we are working on new codicies and that people should buy models now because they will be coming soon! but we wont release them until just before 6ed and make sure 6ed makes 75% of the rules in it obsolete!!!
> Whole Board : clap clap clap clap clap! Jervis! You are the best!
> Jervis : I know :so_happy:
> 
> 
> You can call this a premonition if you like


No to be rude or anything, but seems to me it's time for you to start looking for another hobby. Your sarcasm level has reached warp-like proportions. :grin:


----------



## boreas

DonFer said:


> No to be rude or anything, but seems to me it's time for you to start looking for another hobby. Your sarcasm level has reached warp-like proportions. :grin:


I think you're right, but he's possibly in the same position as I am: my best friends have extensive SW/Eldar/Nids/IG/Daemons/Tau armies and are not willing to leave the hobby. So, what can I do? Invest in yet another army (I've got WH/DH/Necrons, yeah!)? Get new friends? Right now, I'm convincing them to re-try WFB (we left that a few year ago because we were tired of "shufflehammer" and preferred the more dynamic 40k).

WH40k is my bi-weekly "boys night out", so no, I won't be leaving. But by the Emperor I'm going to be an annoying SOB (see the pun, here!?) for GW until I get a new dex. I already wrote email every second month to complain. With the latest idiocy, I'll make that weekly. I'll just switch sending to US customer service, UK customer service, JJ, Matt Ward, etc...

Phil


----------



## DonFer

boreas said:


> I think you're right, but he's possibly in the same position as I am: my best friends have extensive SW/Eldar/Nids/IG/Daemons/Tau armies and are not willing to leave the hobby. So, what can I do? Invest in yet another army (I've got WH/DH/Necrons, yeah!)? Get new friends? Right now, I'm convincing them to re-try WFB (we left that a few year ago because we were tired of "shufflehammer" and preferred the more dynamic 40k).
> 
> WH40k is my bi-weekly "boys night out", so no, I won't be leaving. But by the Emperor I'm going to be an annoying SOB (see the pun, here!?) for GW until I get a new dex. I already wrote email every second month to complain. With the latest idiocy, I'll make that weekly. I'll just switch sending to US customer service, UK customer service, JJ, Matt Ward, etc...
> 
> Phil


I hear you mate, and I'm with you. In my case, i just jumped into the hobby 4 months ago and invested heavily in DH. Now i see that THIS army is a real mess and not very competitive. Money thrown away? 

But hey I've been in other hobbies (RPG and MTG) and to tell you the truth it's all the same everywhere. As much as we would like to have a customer-friendly company, there aren't any. Bottomline the hobby business is a volatile one. One day you are on top, the other day you are Cannon fodder, just because people loose interest (RPGs, CCGs and minis companies come to mind). The window of opportunity to make profit is very small. New companies start out as being over-friendly with the fan base and end up like GW. You could even speak with the owner of the company at some point. Now you are lucky just to talk to an aswering machine. 

I agree that GW has too many loose ends to tie, and they are failing miserably in the task, but I can also see we have to give them some time. Maybe i've yet not been beaten by GW policies as you, but I see that we have a very consistent hobby, nice and high quality products and updates (of course not the ones we all IQ guys/gals are expecting) which help the game stay fresh. But when the hobby starts getting expensive and user-unfriendly, it's better to look for another one, you'll save yourself from rabies :biggrin:and money spending. Eventually , if things go in the same direction as today, people will leave and then GW will end up as cannon fodder themselves. k: (and learn their lesson in the process..)

Cheers


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DonFer said:


> No to be rude or anything, but seems to me it's time for you to start looking for another hobby. Your sarcasm level has reached warp-like proportions. :grin:


Thank you 
But I have kinda invested too much money to stop now, I guess I could sell all my DH and WH figures since none of it is painted and 90% still in their boxes.
Anyone wanna buy some DH and WH? 

Anyways, Ive been waiting for what it is they will have to say today about the WH and DH since this was stated yesterday:


> In other, non-Warhammer related news, we've added both the Witch Hunters: Codex and the Daemonhunters: Codex to the Astronomican. You can now download both of these for free. This is great news for all 40K fans so tomorrow I'll drag myself away from the Warhammer world and talk a bit more about them.


Here is what has been posted so far :
*Apocalypse Datasheets; Storm Troopers; Tyranid conversions*


> I was on a hunt for Storm Trooper-related hobby, but got distracted by Rik Turner's Tyranid conversions (I'm fickle like that). He's just finished putting together four of the named personalities from the Tyranid book. Now, whenever I do a conversion, I tend to finish one before beginning another, but Rik told me that, 'by converting them all at the same time, I could just open a bunch of Tyranid sets and then use all the bits together. This stopped me having too many leftover, unused pieces. Especially in the case of the four Hive Tyrants I needed for my Swarmlord.' Here's a look at Rik's creations.


No working links or anything yet, maybe it will get fixed as the day goes by.
Interesting enough is the title, Apocalypse Datasheets, Storm Troopers and Tyranid conversions.
Will they put out some Datasheets for DH and WH apocalypse battles? What would be the point? The codicies they published are half arsed and you might as well just download the whole thing from a torrent site.
Storm Troopers? Ooohhh, you mean those units both WH and DH can induct, that just so happened to get repackaged last friday?
Well for the low low price of 12£ you can get 5 storm troopers, for 8.50£ you can get a blister with 2 storm troopers, one with a flamer, the other with grenade launcher and thats not all, we have created another blister for the same low low price of 8.50£ with 2 stormtroopers as well, one with melta and one with plasma.

Correct me if Im wrong but did I predict the future earlier today about what they were going to say in Whats "New" today?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I was correct, just updated GWs site and got this 



> As I mentioned yesterday, Codex: Witch Hunters and Codex: Daemonhunters are now available to download as a PDF (provided you're registered). If you don't game with either of the two, they're full of cool background information on the Imperium, the forces of Chaos and the 40K universe. And if you're likely to be gaming against a Witch Hunters or Daemonhunters army, then it'll be handy to know what you're up against.





> As I'm sure you know, both Witch Hunter and Daemonhunter armies can field Imperial Storm Troopers, which were some of the first Imperial related models I ever bought. I love the story behind them: they're absolutely rock-hard, elite soldiers who'll stop at nothing to get the job done. They get better weapons, armour and training than anyone who's not a Space Marine. And they deploy for battle in the most heroic of fashions: grav-chuting from the back of Valkyries, leaping from speeding Rhinos or infiltrating behind enemy lines. With the Storm Troopers being re-released the other day and the PDFs yesterday, my love for these heroic individuals has been rekindle - I think I'll add a squad of them to my Catachan army (even the Catachans would welcome the help of such fearsome warriors). I've added the Storm Troopers below in case you've been equally inspired.


Then they show the blister packs I listed above. Maybe I should go into the fortune telling business  then again maybe Ive grown accustomed to how GW operates and it was pretty obvious what they were going to do. Why mention an models related to the GK, SoB or Inquisition when you can mention some good old guardsmen that can be told to join the above but otherwise not related to the ordos in any way.

Gotta love this comment : "They get better weapons, armour and training than anyone who's not a Space Marine."
Does this mean they get better weapons, armour and training that Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle and perhaps Grey Knights? (not sure if they count as Space Marines).
None of the Storm Troopers I have ever seen has had a better armour save than 4+ so thats obviously a lie, better weapons? You mean the hellguns? A regular bolter worn by Battle Sisters is better, the only weapons they can use sisters cant are plasma rifles and grenade launchers. Better training? I would say better training than normal Imperial guardsmen but equal to Sisters of Battle if WS and BS accounts for their training.


----------



## DonFer

PFFFF, It's true then, GW is really a mess.


----------



## Shandathe

... this thread honestly feels like we should be sitting around a table with a copious amount of alcohol as we get ever more desperate.


----------



## fynn

and it made me laugh with the wording " they're full of cool background information on the Imperium, the forces of Chaos and the 40K universe"
what background and info? its been removed you dumb bastard (GW that is)


----------



## timsmith

just spotted this link over on the GK forum. Havent seen it yet so thought id post it.
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2010/06/daemonhunter-codex-is-now-online-link.html#/

fritz is a well respected tournament player and it shouldnt be blown streight out of the water. But we have heard things before.


----------



## GrizBe

Erm.. we've already posted about the old codex being up, and the speculation of them being out around Games Day UK... only real thing was the speculation about the weapons.. which a while back someone posted then said they'd made it up... soo unless its an elaborate double bluff...


----------



## Vhalyar

Ahah, GW nixed the Allies rule from the PDFs, which are now the de facto tournament rules. I didn't think it was possible, but GW found a way to kick Grey Knights and Sisters in the (metaphorical) balls while they are down in the dirt.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

> The new PDF is up for the people who do not have access to buy the codex anymore. The missing Alies section in the U.S format is indeed a mistake. And whichever one the tournament/event organizer says to use is the one that we have to abide by. I know that for our tournaments we will be using the Physical codex and NOT the PDF. I hope this helps!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John Hollingsworth
> Customer Service Specialist


courtesy of BoLS


----------



## Vhalyar

Customer support is, as usual, giving conflicting information. Apparently some people who asked what was up to Customer support got told that it was a deliberate change and that official tournaments from now would use the PDF as a reference.

Good going GW.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

But that does not make sense since it is ONLY the US/UK versions missing the allies pages. The others are fine. I believe that it was a mistake that for some reason they cannot correct.


----------



## fynn

Some bad news guys.
I just had a another look at the PDF on the GW uk site, and now all special rules for grey knights are gone, so no fearless, shrouding or true grit, there all gone, oh and still no FOC chart.
And thats the UK version, dont know about other versions yet, if someone can check the others and see what changed in there and let us know.
will have a look at the WH pdf now to whats changed on there again


----------



## boreas

Well, the french and english versions of WH do not have allies anymore... Not sure its a mistake 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wouldnt bother using those PDFs, its for those who dont have a book or for people who would like to read "some" of the rules for the armies.
Its a complete flop by GW, I would continue using my old codicies, if anyone has a problem with that I simply wont play vs them.


----------



## Kettu

So with the total waste of time and effort the PDFs were for everyone involved I guess that adds another point to the 'being squatted' school of thought.


----------



## Vhalyar

Kettu said:


> So with the total waste of time and effort the PDFs were for everyone involved I guess that adds another point to the 'being squatted' school of thought.


What a silly thought. You are silly.
GW has said no squatting. No army is going to be removed. Rumors are pointing to Grey Knights being remade, if anything the PDFs have been hastily thrown together to cover up the schedule changes.


----------



## Kettu

As much as I want to believe that they also have yet to officially state the fate of the Chaos Dwarfs.

That and I find it really hard to most the rumours as on the most part it is little more than wild mass guessing and I don't know how accurate BB is.

When you also consider the complete lack of attention Sisters and Grey Knights (Sisters even more so) have seen since their release in 2004 and 2003. 
Even GW themselves admitted that they were nothing more than an advert for their two-three year defunct =][= rpg instead of doing Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights to stand on their own. GW has, in the past, admitted they didn't really know what to do with the two armies due to this simple fact.

Then there is also their obnoxious method of keeping absolutely in the dark till the last possible moment 'just to surprise' their own market. A market that any other company would keep in the loop if simply so they had an idea on what was to come.
This last factor has led to me shelving most of my armies till I know more.

I can't continue any of my fantasy armies till I know what the rules are and if I'm shooting myself in the foot.
And I can't continue my Sisters army till I know what or if something is happening amidst the price increases and lack of product.

So yes, this has left me somewhat bitter and pessimistic about this whole thing.

Meanwhile, I have heard back from my email to GW over the PDFs:


> Thanks for writing in. It's possible the rules for allying forces may be
> present in a future article so be sure to keep an eye on the website for
> more information as it happens.
> Further, you could also utilize the rules found in the Apocalypse
> rulebook for fielding allies in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
> be sure to keep your opponent informed of what you're doing and it's
> best to consider that if you should do this it would not be tournament
> legal (though as always, check with your tournament organizer
> beforehand)
> 
> Thanks again for contacting us, feel free to contact us again if you
> have any other questions.


So yeah, ask my opponent to use rules from apoc in lieu of my codex.


----------



## fynn

well from reading warseer, the officla word from the guy who runs the GT is, you can still use your hard copy codex. the pdf was released so that if any one wants to try DH/WH they can with out haveing to try and find the now out of print books (even though you cant buy the models).


----------



## Zenzi

it would be nice if GW would (I would say make up there mind but this is better) share what the heck there thinking. I have wanted to start a sister army but now with the models out of production and everything up in the air of will they be squatted or will a new codex for the Inquisition will come out.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> Even GW themselves admitted that they were nothing more than an advert for their two-three year defunct =][= rpg


A load of tottenham, that is. A steaming pile of hotspur. 
They never said anything of the sort


----------



## bitsandkits

Kettu said:


> When you also consider the complete lack of attention Sisters and Grey Knights (Sisters even more so) have seen since their release in 2004 and 2003.
> Even GW themselves admitted that they were nothing more than an advert for their two-three year defunct =][= rpg instead of doing Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights to stand on their own. GW has, in the past, admitted they didn't really know what to do with the two armies due to this simple fact.


Sisters of battle were introduced as a playable army in 1997 and the grey knights were introduced shortly after the introduction of space marine terminators.


----------



## fynn

and grey knights first appeared in the 2 chaos hard back books, lost and the dammed and the realms of chaos, which was RT, start of 2nd ed


----------



## oblivion8

> Then there is also their obnoxious method of keeping absolutely in the dark till the last possible moment 'just to surprise' their own market. A market that any other company would keep in the loop if simply so they had an idea on what was to come.


I do agree to this point, as gw has, imo, no reason to "suprise us", in fact, they may make more money by not pissing us off.



> So yeah, ask my opponent to use rules from apoc in lieu of my codex.


If what they said is true, then you just ask your local store when tournies are coming if you can use the allies rule (not that you should have to of course), and if its something like ardboyz, then the riules should plainly say if you can use them. As for asking opponents, if you have to, then they are morons with half a brain (no offense to the half brainers of course).


----------



## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> A load of tottenham, that is. A steaming pile of hotspur.
> They never said anything of the sort


Ok, so not the only reason but one of the head design guys was quoted as once saying at a Games day a year or two ago that the Inquisition element was played up to such a degree as a form of cross advertising to their =][= rpg system and also to bring players of the rpg to the two 40k armies.
I'll try to hunt down the exact quote tomorrow as it's 1am currently where I am.



bitsandkits said:


> Sisters of battle were introduced as a playable army in 1997 and the grey knights were introduced shortly after the introduction of space marine terminators.





fynn said:


> and grey knights first appeared in the 2 chaos hard back books, lost and the dammed and the realms of chaos, which was RT, start of 2nd ed


And Sisters were first mentioned in Rogue Trader as being the group tasked with hunting down rogue and traitor marine chapters.
I know this, I have done a fair bit of research on Warhammer 40,000 seeing as it is my prime hobby.
The Daemonhunters and Witchhunters codices came out in 2003 and 2004. As to how often they were mentioned in publications *before* those dates I do not know but since then the 4th ed rulebook was really the first and last time they received much attention and I can count the number of times after that on one hand and still have fingers (And my thumb) left.
Considering that they came out/received their codices six-seven years ago that is really bad as far as a company’s valid stock goes.

I do know DE have gotten as bad but they are mentioned each supplement and receive a fair bit of attention in the 5th ed rulebook. Sisters and Grey Knights are mentioned alongside the Ad-Mech across six paragraphs and that is pretty much it.


----------



## bitsandkits

Kettu said:


> Ok, so not the only reason but one of the head design guys was quoted as once saying at a Games day a year or two ago that the Inquisition element was played up to such a degree as a form of cross advertising to their =][= rpg system and also to bring players of the rpg to the two 40k armies.
> I'll try to hunt down the exact quote tomorrow as it's 1am currently where I am.
> 
> 
> 
> And Sisters were first mentioned in Rogue Trader as being the group tasked with hunting down rogue and traitor marine chapters.
> I know this, I have done a fair bit of research on Warhammer 40,000 seeing as it is my prime hobby.
> The Daemonhunters and Witchhunters codices came out in 2003 and 2004. As to how often they were mentioned in publications *before* those dates I do not know but since then the 4th ed rulebook was really the first and last time they received much attention and I can count the number of times after that on one hand and still have fingers (And my thumb) left.
> Considering that they came out/received their codices six-seven years ago that is really bad as far as a company’s valid stock goes.
> 
> I do know DE have gotten as bad but they are mentioned each supplement and receive a fair bit of attention in the 5th ed rulebook. Sisters and Grey Knights are mentioned alongside the Ad-Mech across six paragraphs and that is pretty much it.


No, Grey knights were included in the slaves to darkness book, which made them a playable option for rouge trader armies in 1988,which for the record predates even the invention of codex books and then the sisters of battle had there first edition codex printed in 1997 which was a whole 6 years before the 2003 which hunter codex. 
Neither of these armies are going the way of the squats, I worry sometimes about the state of some peoples 40k paranoia, the squats have not had a new 40k model for 20 years and warhammer 40k has only been around for 23 years.
Squats were removed because they were a bad idea, people hold them in such reverence but they were nothing special, at best they were just another imperial guard regiment at worst they were a laughing stock, alot of the elements of RT have not survived in anything other than name, hell even space marines dont look the same as they did then, GW didnt remove them just because of sales, they removed them because of the reason for poor sales.


Im pretty certain the quote your looking for will exist but in all honesty its a quote posted by some guy who asked some other guy a question that was likely posted out of context, hell i wouldn't even believe what ive just posted its likely bullshit.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The thing Im most disappointed about is the lack of support in this years supplements.
Take Battle Missions for instance, not a single GK or SoB mission but just to spite us they had a picture of some GKs fighting daemons in it.
Another insult was that they copied a SoB mission from the WH codex; Defend The Shrine, this mission is pretty simple. A shrine in the middle, deploy some troops in and around it, defend it from attack. Does this sound familiar to one of the SM missions?

I think GW should do like Black Library and announce what they are planning 1 year in advance. Then again if they did Im sure a few companies would capitalize on it by making their own shoulder pads and other trinkets for those armies since GW does not do that very often.


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## Wusword77

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think GW should do like Black Library and announce what they are planning 1 year in advance. Then again if they did Im sure a few companies would capitalize on it by making their own shoulder pads and other trinkets for those armies since GW does not do that very often.


Real problem there is no one would buy the model range when they know a new dex is coming out. While I've been waiting for the new DH dex to release I have passed on purchasing GK's because I don't know how the new dex will look, or if there will be Plastic kits.

Giving out the info a year in advance will hurt them more then help.


----------



## oblivion8

> Real problem there is no one would buy the model range when they know a new dex is coming out. While I've been waiting for the new DH dex to release I have passed on purchasing GK's because I don't know how the new dex will look, or if there will be Plastic kits.
> 
> Giving out the info a year in advance will hurt them more then help.


thats debatable, as some people may start playing the army for the sole reason that a new dex is coming out. Also they might pick up the old models before they were discontunued (I can think of fire prisms, daemonettes to name a couple). I dont think overall that they would be hurt that much, even if they just mentioned the fact that "oh..... we are planning on releasing new grey knights next summer."


----------



## rodmillard

Wusword77 said:


> Real problem there is no one would buy the model range when they know a new dex is coming out. While I've been waiting for the new DH dex to release I have passed on purchasing GK's because I don't know how the new dex will look, or if there will be Plastic kits.
> 
> Giving out the info a year in advance will hurt them more then help.


I think some research needs to be done in this area. Find some gaming companies who operate a more open release strategy and investigate how sales of their ranges fare within the anounced sales window (if their UK based a FoI request should be all you need), then look at sales of GW ranges across the same period.

Now, in GWs case it will be harder, since only 2 of the 5 releases since 5th ed came out have completely independent model ranges (the other 3 all being variations on space marines) But Tyranids should provide a good enough case study, with IG sales backing it up to project a trend.

One thing we can be sure of, withdrawing the range from sale 9 months (or 2 Years +/- for SoB) from the scheduled release date is not going to help anyone. The cynic in me says that this retail "strategy" is designed to justify semi-squatting my beloved nuns-with-guns:

GW Boardmember: "We want to drop the sisters of battle but we have promised no armies will be discontinued, how do we do it?"
GW Employee: "Um, sir ... we could remove all their box sets from sale, so people can only buy them in Blister packs. Then we put the price of the blister packs up, and release a half arsed online codex with the ally rules deleted, so that people can't field allies and have to buy a full army of them, while a minimum size squad costs more than £70. Then a year later we can point to the sales figures and say we were going to release a new codex, but the army is so unpopular that we're just going to release a badly designed apocalypse formation instead, printed in White Dwarf inbetween the advert for Space Marines and the advert for Other Space Marines In A Different Shade Of Blue."
GW Boardmember: "Excellent work, have a pay-cut!"
GW Employee: "Yes Master..."


----------



## Kettu

bitsandkits said:


> No, Grey knights were included in the slaves to darkness book, which made them a playable option for rouge trader armies in 1988,which for the record predates even the invention of codex books and then the sisters of battle had there first edition codex printed in 1997 which was a whole 6 years before the 2003 which hunter codex.


However, Sisters had an army list in the 3rd ed rulebook, a fair amount of fluff by comparison and then over the years had a WD army list and a few articles also in white dwarf. 
I'm not talking about pre-3rd ed codex. Since then the Sisters have been in the WD of the month they were released on and the fourth ed rulebook that gave them as much prime time as the other armies.
And that is it.
One stratergem in the second Apoc book (Pretty useless one at that) and nothing in any other supplements, WD mention on the web.
Grey Knights are in almost the exact same boat.



bitsandkits said:


> Neither of these armies are going the way of the squats, I worry sometimes about the state of some peoples 40k paranoia, the squats have not had a new 40k model for 20 years and warhammer 40k has only been around for 23 years.
> Squats were removed because they were a bad idea, people hold them in such reverence but they were nothing special, at best they were just another imperial guard regiment at worst they were a laughing stock, alot of the elements of RT have not survived in anything other than name, hell even space marines dont look the same as they did then, GW didnt remove them just because of sales, they removed them because of the reason for poor sales.


GW said it wasn't due to sales but they couldn't think of how to do the army justice without it still being a massive joke.

However, with GW utter lack of information about the Sisters and Grey Knights and the fact they can not even keep a straight answer over the .pdf foul up looks, to an outsider, like GW as a company has chosen to ignore them as armies and factions or they treat them with a certain disdain.

The stock was withdrawn from sale, the codices were withdrawn from sale, little to no mention in six years, they had trouble uploading something as simple as a pdf. 
I do try to stay optimistic about it all but after all this time it is getting very hard to do.


----------



## Kettu

rodmillard said:


> ...we're just going to release a badly designed apocalypse formation instead


That'll be the day. Sisters are still waiting on GW to give us first apoc datasheet.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Hopefully WH and DH go along the lines of the recent releases of BA and SW, both of those armies began to fall into disdain, out of date codices, out of date unique models, yes they had the normal marines to mooch off, but look at them now, completely unique sexy armies.

Hopefully WH/DH get a similar overhaul.

Grish


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## Azezel

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Hopefully WH/DH get a similar overhaul.
> 
> Grish


It's to be hoped not. Whilst both of those codices are popular with the flavour of the month crowd they seem to have angered a lot of the old-guard who've been playing those armies all along.

On this and other forums one sees a lot of posts by long-time BA or SW players bemoaning the new codices as counter to the established fluff or flavour of their army.

Long-time BA/SW players also seem to be the most scathing about flying Land Raiders, Jaws of the World Wolf and every other thing being named Blood or Wolf whatever.

I'd really rather not see a new Sisters codex with some sort of all-powerful act of faith, teleporting Exorcists and everything named 'Emperor's doohicky of the Emperor'.

Fortunately, it's not a foregone conclusion. Arguments of points-balance aside the 5e 'nid and Guard codices seem to be pretty sane.

(EDIT: And nipple armour is RIGHT OUT!)


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

So to please the fan base, all that needs to be done is a model revamp, and rules balancing to be balanced with 5th Ed...which won't happen if GW is GW :biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

On the debate of Gw announcing their release scheudal alot earlier, personally I think it would help.

At the moment, with waiting for the GK's to show up, I'm not buying anything at all as I keep thinking 'Well, they're supposidly here in X months. I'll be annoyed if I buy stuff only to find I can't afford the GK's when they show.' And of course... that trails on for months and months of not buying anything.

If GW said 'GK's will be here in September', I'd be thinking... 'oh, they're here then. Save up for them, and in the meanwhile I could buy X to convert for them to tide me over till then.' or 'Hmm... X unit may get a discontinue, but I really like the models, better snap some up'.

At the moment its more like 'x may be discontinued, better not by any incase I can't use them.'


As for the codex overhall.. I think that they need something like what happened with BA and SW. Okay, it may tick off a few veterans, but with tons of new units and being made even more badass as they should be... Hell, remember these guy are meant to be the elite of the elite... It can only be a good thing. 

Codex Creep is ineviatable in my mind. They always want to try and one-up the previous one to increase sales... but the fact is... if you actually sit down and look at the codex as a whole. They are well balenced for 5th ed... and the silly things like the unit names and some of the outlandish abilites don't bother.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> On this and other forums one sees a lot of posts by long-time BA or SW players bemoaning the new codices as counter to the established fluff or flavour of their army.


people on forums are but a small minority, a vocal, cynical, whiny, over-reactive, paranoid minority, but a minority none the less.
The best places to find the true feelings on things are at game clubs, tournaments and elsewhere, 11 out of 10 times what these people have to say is 101% different to forumers



GrizBe said:


> At the moment its more like 'x may be discontinued


discontinued? :headbutt:
based on what?, 
the voices in your head?


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> based on what?,
> the voices in your head?


I you were a complete outsider to wargaming, your online logical conclusion after revising the facts of the last 3 years would be: these lines are being discontinued. The only thing we have in favor of DH/WH not being discontinued are a few promises from GW employes (including JJ). But frankly, if you were a company with a few models in stock left and right, would you go ahead and tell they were going to be squatted?

Let's compare this with cars. Lets say GM doesn't have Saturn listed in it's new company catalog (ie DH/WH do not have a fluff section in the 5th ed rulebook, merely stats at the end). GM never brings Saturn models to car shows (ie like Apocalypse or Battle Missions) Now, Saturn parts are listed as "not available" half the time. They stop producing manuals for Saturn Cars, but have them as truncated PDFs on the GM website. What would you think about Saturn cars??? Would you buy a Saturn car? Would you say your satisfied when your Saturn car doesn't work but GM says they can't do anything about it right now?

At best, we are treated like second rate customers (just like DE, Necrons, DA and other players). At worse we'Re being squatted

As for the one year preview, it would help GW. If I had an inkling of what's coming, I might want to work on my army. Tell me a year in advance about the possibility of an all-termi GK army with XYZ special charaters and behold, I buy another 10 termies. Tell me the LR redeemer is there: oups, another sale!. Now, I'm upgrading my home theater and will be changing my regular Blu-ray player to a playstation. Heck I have time to play now that I don't have so much to paint...

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> discontinued? :headbutt:
> based on what?,
> the voices in your head?


I do beleive that GK are coming before the end of the year, I also beleive that Sisters will get a new codex and models one day. (And people call my cynical? Ha!)

No - I really do believe both of those things.

However - Games Workshop do not _need_ to squat any army. If GW should ever want to eliminate an army without actually discontinuing it then all they need do is what they have already done to the Sisters.

1) Prevent anyone from starting a new army by discontinuing the codex and charging £53.50 for a basic troop squad.

2) Eliminate the allies rules so that anyone with another army cannot add the few Sisters they can afford.

3) Never mention the Sisters again in White Dwarf, Apocalypse, Battle Missions etc.

Et voila one army stealth-squatted while still ostensibly 'supported'.

Again: _I do not believe that this is GW's actual policy_. But I fully understand why GrizBe does. GrizBe also strikes me as a gentlemen, so I imagine you may rest assured that he will apologise when the time comes (I daresay he'll be thrilled to be proven wrong, in fact). At that point, as a gentleman yourself, you'll resist the temptation to say 'I told you so'.

Friends?


----------



## GrizBe

Well if BB had bothered to read what I said, I said that it _'seemed'_ like X may be discontinued. Not that they were going to, or that I believed they would be. 

Boreas got it right of how GW is making it seem.

Again.. as I was saying, GW saying what they're going to release further in advance would only help. 

Take the SoB's for instance...there were rumours that the Repentia were gonna get cut, so without a 'this is whats comming', your not going to risk buying them incase you waste your money. The same point I was making with other things. You won't buy DH or WH stuff right now incase the models are being discontinued, but if you knew what was comming you might buy them to convert, or because you like the old models and don't want them replaced.


----------



## bitsandkits

boreas said:


> Let's compare this with cars. Lets say GM doesn't have Saturn listed in it's new company catalog (ie DH/WH do not have a fluff section in the 5th ed rulebook, merely stats at the end). GM never brings Saturn models to car shows (ie like Apocalypse or Battle Missions) Now, Saturn parts are listed as "not available" half the time. They stop producing manuals for Saturn Cars, but have them as truncated PDFs on the GM website. What would you think about Saturn cars??? Would you buy a Saturn car? Would you say your satisfied when your Saturn car doesn't work but GM says they can't do anything about it right now?
> 
> Phil


Good point, but using the same logic does GM have fan forums full of people worrying about the lack of support for a car they havent purchased already and were never likely to?

People across forums have been bleating on about the release of codex's since internet 40k forums came into being, loads of people were utterly convinced that the Orks were going to be canned because they had gone so long without a codex,the range was crap and alot of the codex didnt have models.

GW have not made a habit of scrapping armies, some have changed for the better, some have been divided up, but GW have added more armies to the pack than they have removed, the two major armies that have been removed (squats & chaos dwarves)have two huge things in common and that is they look stupid & were not very popular at the time of there release.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Well if BB had bothered to read what I said, I said that it _'seemed'_ like X may be discontinued. Not that they were going to, or that I believed they would be.


oh I read your post fine, you were saying "it seems" more like 'x may be discontinued.

but bearing in mind "the facts" it seems nothing of the sort


----------



## boreas

bitsandkits said:


> Good point, but using the same logic does GM have fan forums full of people worrying about the lack of support for a car they havent purchased already and were never likely to?


You'd be surprised at what goes on car forums! The Camaro vs Mustang debate has had lots of people banned from forums :grin: And when GM (edit: I'd written GW here haha!) stopped selling Saturns here in Canada (hence my example), lots of people were really unhappy and worried. But here, the worry is from people who _have_ bought the car (ie a DH or WH army). And even Orks had datasheets in the Apocalypse game that was released a few months before the codex. Also, has any other army ever lose it's fluff part in the main rulebook? I don't think GK/SoB will be canned, but I think people a really justified in thinking it. 

Right now, GW's is just a bit below my cable/internet provider in the list of business I trust. 

Phil


----------



## tu_shan82

Probably a little off topic, but I didn't think this rumor deserved its own thread, but I found this over on the Dakka forums.


Tek @ Dakka Dakka said:


> I was talking to a Redshirt last weekend about the lack of Allies in the new GH/WH Codex. He neither confirmed nor denied this, but seemed to give off an air that Allies are indeed gone.
> 
> He did however say he "knew the new assassins rules" and preceeded to tell me the rules for the new Vindicare. As always, redshirt blabber can always use a nice pinch of salt, but this is interesting nonetheless.
> 
> The Exitus Rifle bestows BS10 on the wielder. This means a 2+ to hit, with a 2+ reroll if missed, as per the rulebook. Essentially 2+ TL.
> Can't remember the AP value, but I imagine it's 1.
> 
> Shield Breaker round now not only ingores Inv., but actually removed that model's ability to gain an Inv. (this supposedly represents the Vindi's super-sniper ability; he's actually shot the refractor field generator, or the warpstone, or the intangible link to the warp :S)
> Turbo-Pen Inflicts D6 wounds, and is super-good against vehicles (don't remember this bit)
> 
> I don't remember much else, but essentially the Stealth Suit and Spy Mask are now uber-awesome, and he will will allegedly be a very expensive dude. I wish I could reme,ber everything he told me, it sounded epic.


Obviously this needs to be taken with a large dose of salt, but given the power levels of the 5th ed codeci, it's not that unbelievable.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd been hearing things along the same lines that Inquisition assassins would be uber, but at the same time uber expensive... I'd also heard though that there wouldn't be Vindicare Assassins, they would instead be generic assasins that you could customise... so for instance, you could give one the Exitus rifle, AND a phase knife.

That seems bollocks to me as then you kill all of the assasin temples fluff, which is just dumb... but thats what the store manager of the store in the next town over was spouting when I dropped in while passing.


Is anyone else worrying that =I= will end up being something of an IG army from what rumours have been floating about, and that GK's will be seperated from them into an elite SM chapter, and sisters into the female equivilent? 

I'm asking since it seems like theres 3 codexs on the horizon in my mind, The GK, the SoB and an =I= one...


----------



## Creon

I don't think ]I[ will be a codex. I think it will be something like the pamphlet-bound Eye of Terror or the equivalent, giving a few units GK/Guard/Sisters may take.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

tu_shan82 said:


> Probably a little off topic


Off topic? What have you been smoking and where can I get some 
Thats more On topic than anything else I can think of.

I need to go dig up the post.

Having trouble with the thread again. Coming up as blank when I try to edit it. Will the new rumours section be lost like the last one? Ive saved the text but without the code.


----------



## tu_shan82

I'm afraid I'm not to good with tech stuff, shoot Jezlad a PM and he should be able to help.


----------



## Kettu

There is a problem with making Assassins super-uber though. Their cost.
Being able to snipe what I want anywhere on the battlefield is nice but is hard to make his cost back and most the time I use vindi to control the firing zone around him. At his current cost it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make when I can force my opponent's hand with a lot of things.

Make him even 50pts more and we are starting to enter into to expensive to use territory.

I use Calli a lot also but when I do she is used to target and take down one specific enemy before I use her for anything else and again, if she becomes to expensive I just throw melta-toting Dominions at whoever needs the attitude adjustment for almost the same cost.

Culexus is already a problem mini. He can be very useful as a fear tactic and most opponents ignore him till I have their flank running away but, again, if he is brought up in price then the little good he can do will be useless unless I one day happen to come across an all psyker army or something.

I personally never use the Eversor, always thought 'bumrush' wasn't a tactic but more a suicidal plan B.

Anyway.
Just yesterday I was at my local GW store asking about fantasy when one regular who'd been on holidays in Europe just recently said he had been to Warhammer World and saw the new Grey Knight minis. He was not forth coming with any other details.

I don't think GW would just have them on display like that if, in fact plastics, not just greens exist at this point.

I _(know)_ think he's being an arse but without the ability to mind probe It's not like I can call him out on it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Id pay max 200-250 points for a vindicare with those stats, 2+ to hit and if it had 2+ to wound or a round I could use to get that every turn.
Ignore Inv bullet
2 wound on a 4+ bullet
1 wound on 2+ bullet
AP bullet
Ignore cover on 3+ bullet
If he had this and I could use any of them every turn Id pay 250 points for him.
With the Vindicare its not really about making his points back, its about crippling the enemy.
Lets say I was facing your Sisters of Battle, I could pluck one VSS every turn so that squad wouldnt be able to use acts of faith and lose the BoSL.
Vs IG you could pluck commanders shouting out orders or that annoying medic giving FNP to the command squad.
Vs space marines it would be really nasty; forced to take 10TM for heavy weapons, they get their ML or LC, split up into 5man group and get into cover somewhere. Snipe the dude with ML or LC and you have basically just cost them the entire unit since the other members are meant to soak up wounds the unit may take.
It will all come down to his special rules and his weapons special rules. If he is able to ignore cover, armour and Inv saves with different bullets or even cause instant death or the D6 wounds he could be used to snipe pretty much anything.

I think this is what he might have seen.
They are resin Grey Knights.


----------



## GrizBe

If they can make them in resin that well, it looks more promising for the plastics...

As for the assasins... heck... If they were uberexpensive but could pretty much one-shot an enemy character I'd pay out for one. and as said, being able to hide him on a vangate point while your picking out heavy weapons and other trouble causing units... that'd be worth it alone too if you knew how to use it right.


----------



## bitsandkits

GrizBe said:


> If they can make them in resin that well, it looks more promising for the plastics...


those are the resin masters for the metal current range


----------



## GrizBe

Just saying though, its not a huge leap between the two mediums.


----------



## bitsandkits

True, i think they could actually improve on the metals with the current cad tech they use,you only need look at the dark elf cold ones to see what level of detail can be produced in plastic.


----------



## Kinglopey

This was just posted on the GW Website:



> We recently made the Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters codexes available to download as PDFs. Since then, we've received a spate of emails asking questions about the difference between the PDFs and the original, printed copies. Rather than reply to you all individually, I thought I'd try to answer your questions here. Firstly, the rules for allied Space Marines and Inducted Imperial Guard were originally written to reference books that have since gone out of print, so we streamlined the rules required to allow players to collect an army of Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters. The Daemonhunters army list uses the Standard Force Organisation chart, which you'll find on page 87 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. The other point that seems to be causing the most confusion is whether or not the PDF versions supersede the printed versions. They don't: you should feel free to continue to use whatever resources you have available to play your games with; the PDF does not overrule or invalidate the printed Codex book. Yes, this may mean that you and your opponent are using what are essentially different army lists for the same army but not every Inquisition force will comprise of the same elements (highly specialised and secretive forces that they are). And if you'd rather use the same one as your opponent, why not simply decide which version you collectively want to use and share the rules between one another? As for tournaments and gaming events, it's entirely up to the organisers to decide which version to use; it is after all their event


Didn't see it posted here.


----------



## fynn

cool, now thats sorted, we can wait for anyone whos against alies to start complaining about the "offical" word, that we can still use our brought and paid for hard copys


----------



## Warlock in Training

Ilike that bit about Tourneys deciding if its valid. That means 2 list, one using PDF, the other Codex.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I hope most torneys use the book since (fluff wise at least) it is very fitting for inquisitors to commandeer other armies and their resources.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive broken the new rumours section again. Sorry about that guys :crazy:
I will sort it tomorrow, I will have to copy paste it into the section below and clean out the current one.


Edit : All sorted, well kinda, added the things I wanted to add to the other rumours section that broke it.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GK codex is currently being put together (fluff, art) and playtesting is happening now.
dead centre january is the date it's pencilled in for, 
curiously enough the date seems to be more "in stone" then anything not related to 8th edition fantasy. 

additionally there is CSM + O&G chatter


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Bindi Baji said:


> GK codex is currently being put together (fluff, art) and playtesting is happening now.
> dead centre january is the date it's pencilled in for,
> curiously enough the date seems to be more "in stone" then anything not related to 8th edition fantasy.
> 
> additionally there is CSM + O&G chatter


Does that mean the loudest and most often thread-jacking faction will have their day? Is DE the next 40k codex out?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Crimson Shadow said:


> Does that mean the loudest and most often thread-jacking faction will have their day? Is DE the next 40k codex out?


yes, the day psychiatrists around the world are dreading is coming close, 
all those gibbering, sent insane by the continual lack of anything at all happening DE fans will spend their money on DE and not psychiatrist bills.

Rumours that psychiatrists will now be hunting out rabid SOB fans are as yet unconfirmed............


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji, have you heard anything about this GK Penitent Engine rumour I found yesterday. It seems very unlikely to me since GK already have their regular dreads.

From what I have been reading the release schedule for 40k is said to be something like :

Dark Eldar
Grey Knights
Necrons
Sisters of Battle

Is this plausible?


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> Bindi Baji, have you heard anything about this GK Penitent Engine rumour I found yesterday. It seems very unlikely to me since GK already have their regular dreads.
> 
> From what I have been reading the release schedule for 40k is said to be something like :
> 
> Dark Eldar
> Grey Knights
> Necrons
> Sisters of Battle
> 
> Is this plausible?


No, i would expect at least two second waves to punctuate that list,plus i think the order is wrong.


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm.. if playtesting of GK's is only just happening, that could fit with a January release date. From what I remember, finished codexs only got to print about 6 weeks before the release date.... Soo, that'd be some time in december. Playtestings a couple of months usually soo... Yeah, If its only happening just now, Jan seems about right.

I'll hold you to that BB, should mean that If DE are next, we'll start seeing the disaperence of the models any day now...

Can't give us any more hints about Codex GK?


As for release order.. We know that one second wave will be the Deamons, not sure what the other may be.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Bindi Baji, have you heard anything about this GK Penitent Engine rumour I found yesterday.


No, it sounds a bit fishy.
a dreadnought sounds possible, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw another plastic dreadnought in the future at all



MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I have been reading the release schedule for 40k is said to be something like :
> 
> Dark Eldar
> Grey Knights
> Necrons
> Sisters of Battle
> 
> Is this plausible?


As bitsandkits says there will be second waves and I do know there is (another) marine codex that should fit in somewhere,
they're all coming at least



GrizBe said:


> we'll start seeing the disaperence of the models any day now...


it should have happened awhile ago really imo, one of my major grievances with GW



GrizBe said:


> Can't give us any more hints about Codex GK?


I don't know a huge amount more then I have said to be honest.


so further hints would be along the line of 
"it has grey knights in it"
"there are no zoats in the codex"
and my fave
"I'm pretty sure it's made of paper"


----------



## GrizBe

Paper? And I was hoping for gold pressed latinum with what GW owes the GK fans. 

Only question now I'd like to know as I've a friend who's an SoB fan... is when the heck are they gonna turn up?


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## Azezel

Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't codex: Spiky Marines, what? Three years old? Less? It was right before 5th, wasn't it? Tau and Eldar both need an update more than them.

Come to think of it, when you say 'I do know there is (another) marine codex that should fit in somewhere' do you mean CSM or that there will be both CSM and some other kind of marine as well?


----------



## DonFer

Not to be rude or anything but allow me to be a bit I'm skeptical to what Blind Baji says about the release dates and play-testing stuff (sorry Blind Baji but we've recieved loads of rumors that simply aren't true). What is the veracity of these news? Or are they simply rumors? I mean, we've heard a lot of stuff, that turned out to be nothing but dead words. Up until now we haven't got anything solid to work with, and suddenly they are playtesting GKs and we've got a release date in January?

Not trying to pick a fight here, but we must learn to work on facts and not fiction. So my honest concern is this: can we prove that GKs are being playtested? If so the release date is actually January? Why not December? 

And f I missed any news concerning these rumors, I'd like to apologize, in advance for the rant. :biggrin:


----------



## Silk

Hi Guys first pls sry that i dont want to read the last 70 Sites but i am just a German ^^

does anybody of you know if the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers would be able to get Razorbacks in the new edition?

best regards


----------



## Azezel

DonFer said:


> Not trying to pick a fight here, but we must learn to work on facts and not fiction. So my honest concern is this: can we prove that GKs are being playtested? If so the release date is actually January? Why not December?


BB has a fairly good track record - if he says that GK are being play tested he's probably seen it or talked to someone who has.

And GW never issue codices in December.



Silk said:


> does anybody of you know if the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers would be able to get Razorbacks in the new edition?best regards


Seems really unlikely. Even if it does appear in the new GK codex it would likely be as a dedicated transport for GKs. And that's assuming stormies are in the codex...


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Only question now I'd like to know as I've a friend who's an SoB fan... is when the heck are they gonna turn up?


I don't know really, what I do know is that plans have been drawn up, things discussed and preliminary work should be going on now, 18 months ish sounds about right still



Azezel said:


> when you say 'I do know there is (another) marine codex that should fit in somewhere' do you mean CSM or that there will be both CSM and some other kind of marine as well?


CSM are a long way off, all I know is that they now have a ticket in the queue



DonFer said:


> Not to be rude or anything


that wasn't rude at all


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Silk said:


> Inquisitorial Storm Troopers would be able to get Razorbacks in the new edition?


Since they are technically IG they would probably only have access to IG vehicles, either Chimeras or Valkyries. Even if GK had access to razorbacks I doubt IST would be allowed to use them.
I am however basing my opinion on how the WH and DH codicies work atm, as you can not select a chimera as a transport for SoB nor can you select a Immolator or Rhino as a transport for IST.


----------



## DonFer

Azezel said:


> BB has a fairly good track record - if he says that GK are being play tested he's probably seen it or talked to someone who has.
> 
> And GW never issue codices in December.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems really unlikely. Even if it does appear in the new GK codex it would likely be as a dedicated transport for GKs. And that's assuming stormies are in the codex...


Cool then that's all I needed to hear. Let's see if GW can keep up with the schedule and gives us some GKs as a late Christmas gift.


----------



## Silk

MadCowCrazy said:


> Since they are technically IG they would probably only have access to IG vehicles, either Chimeras or Valkyries.


I just mean, because now at the moment the Troopers can take Rhinos too, just because of that i hope that we will get Razorbacks with Psycannons


----------



## wickedchild

Azezel said:


> Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't codex: Spiky Marines, what? Three years old? Less? It was right before 5th, wasn't it? Tau and Eldar both need an update more than them.
> 
> Come to think of it, when you say 'I do know there is (another) marine codex that should fit in somewhere' do you mean CSM or that there will be both CSM and some other kind of marine as well?


Come on, GW, I want my BT codex updated if it gets as cheesy as the SW and BA :grin::grin::grin:


----------



## smitty23

it's funny but i wouldnt be shocked to see the inquisition dex drop with the second wave deamons in a few months. Makes sense from a business point of view. Release two arch nemesis armies together, new models for both, plus it fits the timeline for new dex's much better than january if you look back on the recent releases. Blood angels in april then no more releases for 9 months for 40k? Doesnt fit the bill judging by pattern of habit by GW. And with the current removal of the grey knights and SOB availability from the site i would say for sure..

_ will most likely get the newest update, not DE.

And the release will be sooner than january.

I just dont see them pulling the shelves for almost a year before the release considering PAGK's havent been available from GW for a little over a month now. Thats 10 months before the so called jan release. WTF!!:ireful2:_


----------



## soulreaver296

YAY FIRST POST!

I can understand GW trying to hype up the GKs to make sure they do well and don't flop. And look at what conclusions we're making, and what the rumours are telling us. Psycher powers galore, Artificer Armor, power weapons standard, and a crazy fast transport/gunship? Who wouldn't wanna at least TRY that out? But what i find interesting is this new "Matrix Dread". This may be another of the big selling points, because IF its in there, it MAY be what alot of SMs have wanted for a long time: a MC Dread. While the reasoning behind it may be sketchy ("Its an Exosuit, not a walker!!!"), there is no denying the draw something like that may have. I doubt it would be Wraithlord quality, but close enough that it could be the tipping point for starting a GK army for some players.

just my 2 and a half cents


----------



## Crimson Shadow

smitty23 said:


> ... Blood angels in april then no more releases for 9 months for 40k? Doesnt fit the bill judging by pattern of habit by GW.


I assume you're excluding the IG tanks and the Eldar tank and support weapons that dropped in June. Granted not the release schedule we all hope and dream about, but they're not leaving us totally without products to spend the money we don't have on.


----------



## Synack

My first army was SoB, I then expanded to GK. I also now own Nids.

I really hope some of those second wave models are nids and I'm really looking forward to a GK Jan release. I got plenty of work still to do on my Nids and then I need to strip all my current GK models, so I can start repainting them.


----------



## GrizBe

These rumours of a GK 'Penitant Engine' Dreadnaught, or the 'Matrix 3 walker' that have cropped up... actually thinking about them, they're very logical considering the fluff. 

GK's all want to die in battle and be inteered in the fortress monestary alongside their brothers... hence, being inteered in dreadnaught armour is something abhorant to them. Soo, in a fluff sense, having a pilotable dreadnaught is logical for them since they can still get the heavy firepower and benefits of a dreadnaught, without having to become one which non of them want to do.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im personally very sceptical to GK getting a Penitent Engine clone. It does not really make much sense to me since they already have dreads.

I dont know much about the fluff regarding the Penitent Engines but they are referred to as "ancient and holy shriving machines".
I looked up shriving and this is what I found:
Shriving means a person confessing their sins and to receive absolution from a priest. 
A small voice asked does 'shriving* mean 'cleaning*? It certainly does. But what kind of cleaning? The same small voice -- "Cleaning of the Soul - the king you do

Heretics interred into PE are basically sent into combat to die for their sins, "Only in death can forgiveness be granted".
This does not really sound like something a GK would use.
Then again maybe they got the designs from the Ecclesiarchy and turned it into a new type of dread for themselves (such things have happened before, the IG "stole" the Immolator designs and "perfected" them into the hellhound.).

I think whoever saw (unless he made it all up) these APU (matrix) walkers must have mistaken the Penitent Engines for some new type of GK walker. Since no info on circumstances regarding the discovery was made we can only guess. If its true mine would be that maybe he saw them in a display board with GKs, Inquisitors and SoB.
The Penitent Engine does look allot like the APU and its not really a commonly used model since Exorcists are so much better that perhaps he had never seen one before and thought it was something new.

Ive sent a pm to the guy with the rumours asking for more info, will let you all know if he answers.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm not saying it will look like the PE, or that it will act the same or be for the same reasons. Just saying that GK's having something similar is logical for them fluff-wise since GK's are meant to hate dreadnaughts. Giving them something like a PE, or as noted the APU walker, makes up for the gap of them not wanting to use dreadnaughts as they can still have something as powerful as one.

I can easily see why someone might confuse them since we've had resin master confused with new plastics recently.. but I can see the logic behind GK's getting some sort of powered exo-skeltal walker.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sorry, forgive my ignorance - where in the fluff does it say anything about GKs hating Dreads? Given the FW kits, I doubt this will be part of the Dex, ie, they would get taken out.


----------



## boreas

It's in the codex fluff. Something about GK being rare and GKs preferring to rest in the cool dark of Titan for Eternity but accepting the necessity of becoming a man-machine if wounded enough... 

Phil


----------



## DonFer

I find the idea of a GK APU quite interesting, and maybe even possible, fluff-wise. But I would like to back-up MadCow and get some proof that the rumors aren't based on some confusion with WH's PE.


----------



## GrizBe

boreas said:


> It's in the codex fluff. Something about GK being rare and GKs preferring to rest in the cool dark of Titan for Eternity but accepting the necessity of becoming a man-machine if wounded enough...
> 
> Phil


Thats pretty much it. All GK's would rather be laid to rest then become a dread... soo, as said, logically the walker would be a good workaround. Giving the GK's dread support while also covering the want of them wanting to be laid to rest.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Seems strange. It's not like they get any rest, since they go to join the Emperor in the Eternal Struggle. :S


----------



## Silk

And what is now with that damn razorbacks and Rhinos ^^

will they be in the codex?


----------



## timsmith

I hope they keep razorbacks and rhino's out of the codex unless its only for the IST. GK shouldnt be played like every other marine dex. That would be such a shame. They need to stay elite, fast, and hard as nails! the storm raven will suffice. 

Not sure i believe the rumors regarding s6 rending Power weapons on basic troops. Thats way ott and will make the normal guts like 40pts a pop or something stupid. S6 rending will be fine. 

Im really hoping for a 2010 release!!


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## Silk

I just hope we will get Razorbacks ans Rhinos for the IST that would be enough for me 

best regards


----------



## Azezel

The following was posted on Bolter & Chainsword by ArmouredWing:



ArmouredWing said:


> Well, I'm not so sure about SoB. I've just called GW direct up to see if I could get some kind of clarification on sisters being able to run in the forthcoming ToS tournie and the very helpful guy on the phone said that for the purpose of this years UK GT they could be played but might not be valid for next year. Mind you, he also said that it could be because a new codex is on it's way and so the PDF would be obselete by then anyway.
> 
> Needless to say I'm pretty unconvinced we're going to see anything SoB within the next year. (snip)


I can't vouch for his reliability but it sounds like something a GW representative would say (that is to say, almost nothing).


----------



## Shandathe

Bindi Baji said:


> 18 months ish sounds about right still



18 months... as added to the YEARS it has been and the 4+ months the models have been taken away... screw this. I hear Warmachines is fun.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Shandathe said:


> 18 months... as added to the YEARS it has been and the 4+ months the models have been taken away... screw this. I hear Warmachines is fun.


Sisters are still pretty strong. At least you aren't in the same boat as Necrons, and you aren't as mono-build as Dark Eldar, the trump card of internet whining.:wink:

Personally (admittedly, I don't play WH presently) I'm very happy to wait if it means nice brand spanking new plastic SoBs. Mmm. Poseable. :laugh:


----------



## HelbrechtBT

Is it me or is GW staying really quiet on SOB? Maybe this is just me being paranoid but
1. Codex being lifted
2. Models randomly being unable to be purchased
3. Mystery Box three comeing out three months after the codex lift.
I dunno maybe it's just me but it seems like the sighns point to the mystery box being
SOBs or Gks maybe?


----------



## rasolyo

TheKingElessar said:


> Mmm. Poseable.


_Bow chicka bow wow._

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## mahavira

To my mind the really strange thing is how aggressively GW has failed to support either DH or especially WH: nothing in planetstrike, nothing in battle missions. If SoB were going to wait until around Nov 2011-Jan 2012 like Bindi Baji thinks, one wonders why late 2009 planetstrike and early 2010 battle missions excluded them altogether (if GK were in October/November, that's kind of a long period, but not insanely so). Don't know how long planetstrike took to write, but I have trouble with the idea that they said "you know, we shouldn't put SoB in because in a year or so someone might -begin- work on a new SoB codex". Until someone comes up with a rational sounding reason why SoB were pulled at the exact same time as GK, I have trouble believing they will be released as far apart as BB suggests.


----------



## Kettu

@mahavira;

That's what I'm trying to understand also. 
GW allegedly said at a games day, when questioned, that they were left out because they did not know where or what direction they were going to take the armies at the time.

This is a pretty poor excuse, all things considered, as at the time of printing those books Sisters wouldn't of even had work started on them and any potential release would've still been what two, three or more years away?
This is most likely the same with the Grey Knights.

This is part of the reason for my pessimistic outlook as it appears to me as if GW was trying to distance them selves from the two armies. 
Lack of support equals reduced sales and with the two lines barely selling as is why would GW do this?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I also find it very strange GW shows pretty much no support what so ever for the armies, they have done pretty much everything they can to discourage people from playing them.
Yet here we are, hoping for a new codex sometime in the future.

Someone should cake Jervis and shout "THATS FOR MY SISTERS OF BATTLE BIATCH!".​


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> To my mind the really strange thing is how aggressively GW has failed to support either DH or especially WH:





MadCowCrazy said:


> I also find it very strange GW shows pretty much no support what so ever for the armies, they have done pretty much everything they can to discourage people from playing them.



or DE, or 'crons, or SW before that.
The plan is for this kind of thing to change and become less common, this is part of the thinking behind "wave" releases




mahavira said:


> nothing in planetstrike, nothing in battle missions.


I believe they have been deciding where to go with inquisition for a good, long while now, for a long time now it's been discussed that inquisitor forces don't fit the fluff properly so they have needed a considerale rethink.

I am aware that the planned inquisition supplement/codex/thingamy is planned to include inquisition based battle missions and the like and will probably cover any missed expansions, if it doesn't I would imagine PDF's or some such making an appearance.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im just worried if they implement the Inquisition as some kinda of battle missions, planetstrike, spearhead thing it will end up being ignored in 99% of all games.
If people bitch about me using WH IA rules then they will bitch about me using an Inquisitorial supplement.


----------



## TheKingElessar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I also find it very strange GW shows pretty much no support what so ever for the armies, they have done pretty much everything they can to discourage people from playing them.
> Yet here we are, hoping for a new codex sometime in the future.
> 
> Someone should cake Jervis and shout "THATS FOR MY SISTERS OF BATTLE BIATCH!".​


Sorry, but fuck that. Someone should cake him and say 'That's for my Fucking ToS!' or 'That's for the Dark Angels!' before SoBs get that.

Have to admit, I'm opposed to people using IA rules, because it simply isn't fair. Anything in the Codex goes, whatever 'beardy' nonsense can be constructed...but buying an extra book/series of books a lot of players simply can't afford? Essentially outspending other players for advantage? I've been that guy (not in 40k) and it's not good for anyone.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

TheKingElessar said:


> Have to admit, I'm opposed to people using IA rules, because it simply isn't fair. Anything in the Codex goes, whatever 'beardy' nonsense can be constructed...but buying an extra book/series of books a lot of players simply can't afford? Essentially outspending other players for advantage? I've been that guy (not in 40k) and it's not good for anyone.


im sorry, but what?! are the IA rules not official? are they not endorsed by GW? can i walk into the local GW and buy them off the shelf? can i refuse to play against the new BA dex as i have not been able to afford it? what about death korps players. would you refuse to play one, even though his rules arent as good as those in C:IG, but the book costs twice as much? if you mean things like titans in a normal game i can understand, but the adjusted costs for older dexs is actually fairer to both sides than outdated ones surely? Can i ask a space marine player to pay 50 points for a rhino, as its clearly unfair? as to paying for advantage, i dont see it, as the WH rules are free on the FW site, so im not doing a Ferrari on those i play against. and as i buy the books anyway(lovely background in them) maybe once a year instead of on models, i would feel disappointed if i coulnt use official rules, in an official environment(local store), in a game that they are meant for. all i can say is that the IA books are the only time my army has recieved anything resembling an update in what, nearly ten years? im sorry, but i think the guy with the IA would walk from that game, not yourself.


----------



## hungryugolino

Yeah, but they're still as official as the fanmade rules on this very forum.

Games Workshop's thought process at work.


----------



## fynn

have you even bothered looking at the first page ofthe IA books? where it says these books can be used in any game as there as offical as codex and rule books, and no-one has the right the to refuse you use of said books. and as the updates for most of the books are now up in free PDF on the FW site, anyone can use em for basic info/point cost. i cant aford the books, but i sure make use of the pdf updates as i dont need the back ground fluff/storys in the books


----------



## Creon

And how about the fact that they're illegal in any GW sponsored tournament? If they were "official" as you say, that wouldn't happen. They are not, no matter what the splash page says. Forge World isn't balanced, it's an excuse to sell their expensive stuff.


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## fynn

isnt balanced as most of it is over priced and underpowered. as for tournys only GW can tell you why they wont allow FW, even though its there company.
so if your saying that it isnt allowed reguardless of what the splash page says, then i can do the same thing with any codex you use, reguardless of what it says in the front of the book


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

GW has said that 40K isnt balanced, not for tourneys anyway. im given to understand that many tourneys actually alter what is in codexs in some cases. It has no effect on friendlys/pick-up games though, a lot of people forget the pre-game chat to get to know whats what and discuss the upcoming game beyond "these are the objectives, i got 1000 points of sisters, lets roll for deployment". its at this time that you can chat about unit rules etc, and usually makes the game better for both players, but then im an idealist


----------



## fynn

i do know a couple of powergamers/cheese players that will not face anything from the FW books (hell they even try to stop you useing the models) coz they fear they may lose to something they see as over powered (which in most case's is a load of old bollocks). i asked if they ever looked at the IA books, and they answered no they havent, so how do they know if if its over powered i asked them, coz we read it on a forum, was there reply...................lol, bloody plonkers.

As an expample of them trying to refuse FW models, i play 5th ed IG and use a vanquisher, despite it being in the codex now, they still tried to stop me useing the model, saying i could only use offical GW models (at the time the latest LRBT kit wasnt out)
hell they even tried to stop a SOB player useing his FW exocist and immolators


----------



## Creon

No, I'm going by what GW in it's infinite wisdom rules. "No Forge World"

Play with Forge World all you want, I'm not going to stop you. Enjoy yourself. Find friends who don't mind. All better for you! But don't expect to play it in a tournament, where it's always explicitly illegal. And if we end up across a table from each other in a friendly game, go for it. Except Flyers. Rules for that are broken.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I just saw a post about Stormtroopers gone missing on GWs website. I checked it and they have indeed been removed from the Troops section in the Daemonhunter army section. Only a Sergeant with Plasma pistol remains but Im sure he will get removed soon as well. They can now be found in the IG Elite section, not sure if they have always been there though.
I also noticed they were not in the WH troop section, I cant remember if they used to be there. I know they are a troop choice for Inquisitorial WH armies but dont remember if they were in the troop section on gws webpage. If you know please send me a pm.

P.S I decided to get an adoptable  If you like what Ive done just click it, allot of people have joined the forum trying to give me rep but you cant give rep unless you have a certain amount of posts. So instead of rep just click my little pet Gluttony 

This got me wondering. If they were in the Troops section of the WH but are now removed could this point towards a combined codex? Basically a GK and SoB combined codex?
GK in themselves is a very small army with very few choices but Im sure they could expand upon that but this has got me thinking that maybe the SoB will be in it as well since they are also not a very large army. If you remove all the Inquisitorial and Ecclesiarchy models from the WH codex you get very few choices indeed.
Top this of with the guy who said he thinks the GK will be getting a walker similar to the matrix APU which happens to look allot like the Ecclesiarchys Penitent Engine. Are we looking at a combined codex or am I simply rambling?

Let me know what you guys think :crazy:


----------



## smitty23

When you say no forge world what do you mean? You trying to say you just cant use the rules or that you cant use the models? Im telling you, if i buy an ultramarines dreadnought from forgeworld with more ultramarines horse shoes on it than the games workshop kit and normal weapons and some jackass says i cant use it because it isnt an official games workshop model then that person is a total idiot. it's no different than modding your own dread or model via kitbash as long as it's wizywig. Now some of the weapon options from FW that only exist in IA i can understand. I could see how you wouldnt be able to use them in a tourney simply based on the fact that not everyone plays with IA and the rules in it arent in circulation as much as the codexes. It would be very confusing to alot of people. Tau showing up with hazard suits and battlesuits toting photon disruptors (wtf is that) Would be off setting to people who dont own or actively play with IA books. Even then there are multiple volumes with different armies in each. So unless you play tau you wouldnt even own their volume most likely. Be glad it's not official. Great, another 90 dollar book you have to buy. Thats just what everyone wants. I think almost 30 for a codex is quite enough. It can stay unofficial as far as im concerned. Friendly games are a different matter altogether. Who cares?!?!


----------



## Bindi Baji

guys this isn't really the place to have a forgeworld/ IA discussion



MadCowCrazy said:


> Let me know what you guys think :crazy


Bearing in mind that i've seen bits related to the GK codex I will happily sell you my soul for an american beer:shok: if the comined codex is released, 
and what's even more shocking is I will drink said american beer :shok:

Given my hatred of american beer you see where i'm coming from...:grin:


----------



## GrizBe

FW model wise... my local GW store doesn't mind you using them, so long as there are official rules for the model or are using that for 'counts as'.

The store in the next town over though will only let you us purely GW models though.... =/



Back on subject though....

I think that SoB's will get a seperate codex, simply because they are more Ecclesiarchy then =I=. Thinking about it... Deathwatch are the militant arm of the Ordo Xenos, GK's the Ordo Mallus and SoB are only really tied to the Ordo Hereticus because of the religious aspect of it in hunting the heretics the Ecclesiarchy find.

Going by the rumors, its seems they could be expanding the troop choices for the GK with the rumours of walkers and jetbikes and even jumpacks... SoB's, if you look at their lists. Appart from the HQ like the confessor and then the witchunter Inquisitor in the elites, pretty muche verything else they use is unique to them. DH current lists, alot of it it their version of space marine stuff or the storm troopers which are IG.

I think with some tweaking that both are fully capable of having their own full codexes, so a joint GK + SOB one seems unlikly in my mind.

Can see Deathwatch though getting just an entry though if they stil exist, as as pointed out they're pretty much just Sternguard now with a different paint job.

Does make me wonder though if they'll be made official ever... Give them some supped up stats, some tougher ammo types and a prefered enemy rule when fighting Xenos, and I can see them becomming viable again.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Does make me wonder though if they'll be made official ever... Give them some supped up stats, some tougher ammo types and a prefered enemy rule when fighting Xenos, and I can see them becomming viable again.


they are planned according to JJ amongst others, but then so is ad mech and many other projects, 
the only thing that has held them back is the sheer number of severely out of date codexes that has become a reality over the years.

However I wouldn't be surprised if they are somehow available via the inquisition supplement/codex/thingamy, 
that is pure well-thought, intelligent, clever, logical speculation on my part though :biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

Wouldn't surprise me either since they've not enough to warrent their own codex.


----------



## Azezel

I don't recal ever seeing =][= stormies for sale under the WH troops section.

And a dex combining GK and SoB is pretty much the only thing we know won't happen.


----------



## boreas

The fact the GW didn't know what direction to take with DH/WH is the most pathetic excuse they ever game to gamers. How hard is it to photoshop the same penitent engines 3 times put "cost+50pts" in the upper-right corner and give them all "fleet"? 

The real bottom line is that GW cares about DH/WH less than they care about Necrons, DE or any other army except possibly DA. WH/DH were the wacky children of an era where some game developpers cared about the =I=. Also, I'm pretty sure JJ went official about trying to make publicity for the Inquisitor game. Now, GK/SoB might come back, but they'll still be the red-haired kids, I'm afraid.

Even, _even_, if GW publishes an =I= supplement, it still won't be usable in many venues like tourneys and such. It'll be one of those "cheer up, here's a little pat on the back even if your army is slowly marching towards obsolescence" thing. Now, I know that other armies went the way of the dodo. I make the same argument for people who had LatD armies or even squats.

Here's what GW UK wrote back to my complaint:




> There has been no neglect as I would hope we have explained to you in the past. There are plans and schedules for the production/redoing and development of armies. Some have to come sooner than others, otherwise nothing would be done. What is clear though is that these things will have been planned for some time so that certain updates and add ons will not have been done as they would be known to be changing in the future and the work would be pointless.
> 
> So I hope you see the situation. “ You” as a customer are not being treated badly. Things just take time to develop. Much is the same for Necron and Dark Eldar players and until receantly the Blood Angel players. We simply have to wait for things to be developed correctly and produced.


No neglect??? Are you serious? Things are pointless because they will change in the future? Why even put in datasheets and battle missions for the Space Marines, then, as they are bound to get a new codex soon? 

No, unfortunately, GW is a company that just can't seem to produce rules on a regular basis and with some acceptable level of quality. It's really because no other wargame comes even close to producing the same quality and quantity of models with such a cool background of fluff that we still use their products. And while I know they describe themselves as a "miniature" company more than a rule company, it's no excuse. I'm a pharmacist that sells medications, yet I still give good and clear indications as to how to use them.

As for the SoB timeline, let's see.... DE (autumn 2010), GKs (Winter 2011), Necrons (Spring 2011), Space Marines DA or BT (Autumn 2011) is my guess, so SoB in 18 months _at the very best_... If any of the previous don't go as well as intended GW might be interest in slipping in Tau or CSM as sure-bet cash-cows...

And as far as IA2 supplement is concerned, I can see why tournements won't allow it. But that any casual gamer (meaning someone playing in a non-tournement setting) would refuse 35pts rhinos to Sister shocks me. If I can use the downloadable WH codex, why not the downloadable IA2 supplement???

Phil


----------



## TheKingElessar

I didn't expect such a response regarding FW rules, lol. I have no interest in spamming this thread with the discussion, but, rest assured, when I have time to type up a better treatise on the issue, it shall grace the Blog and we can debate the issue until we mash our faces into our keyboards at each other. 

Regarding Deathwatch - I concur that it would take a pretty huge expansion of their fluff to even begin to justify a Codex. The Adeptus Arbites are more fleshed out, FFS.


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> The fact the GW didn't know what direction to take with DH/WH is the most pathetic excuse they ever game to gamers


That's right, that excuse they never gave to gamers was terrible, I can't believe they did that! :angry:




boreas said:


> The real bottom line is that GW cares about DH/WH less than they care about Necrons, DE or any other army except possibly DA.


So blatantly true, based on, erm, well it's true because, erm, er, well that is to say it's obvious because of erm, hold on, there is no proof, it's erm, a rant



boreas said:


> it still won't be usable in many venues like tourneys and such.


Yep, that's right, it's going to be released with a big sticker on the back that says *This codex/supplement/whatchamacallit won't be usable anywhere so screw you buddy*

And the moral of this story is: 

A: GW hates everyone in equal measure.

either that or 

B: people on forums over-react.

or alternatively 

C: I need to get laid.

or finally

D: All of the above


----------



## synjin

It is interesting to note that for last year's Adepticon in Chicago, IA units were in use for the National Team Tournament, excluding super heavies, gargantuan creatures and flyers. Those guys put a lot of work into their tournaments and rules clarifications.

I wish that had been the case at the tournament I played in this last weekend! My Grey Knights managed two wins AND were slaughtered twice. Slaughtered, tabled, no figures left. Holding ground is not a Grey Knight strength, but Kill Points tend to be better missions for them.

Just my thoughts.

Synjin


----------



## TheKingElessar

synjin said:


> It is interesting to note that for last year's Adepticon in Chicago, IA units were in use for the National Team Tournament, excluding super heavies, gargantuan creatures and flyers. Those guys put a lot of work into their tournaments and rules clarifications.
> 
> I wish that had been the case at the tournament I played in this last weekend! My Grey Knights managed two wins AND were slaughtered twice. Slaughtered, tabled, no figures left. Holding ground is not a Grey Knight strength, but Kill Points tend to be better missions for them.
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Synjin


Sigh. Another topic I prefer to avoid a discussion on (not the place) but Adepticon40k=/= real 40k.

The Gladiator tournament is NOTHING like Competitive 40k, in ANY way. For example.

So...one thing largely untouched on in the thread...if Allies are removed (almost a given) do we expect Inducted Vendettas/Sentinels/Hellhounds? IST Sentinels, with better BS and weapons? Neither/both?


----------



## mahavira

TheKingElessar said:


> Sigh. Another topic I prefer to avoid a discussion on (not the place) but Adepticon40k=/= real 40k.
> 
> The Gladiator tournament is NOTHING like Competitive 40k, in ANY way. For example.
> 
> So...one thing largely untouched on in the thread...if Allies are removed (almost a given) do we expect Inducted Vendettas/Sentinels/Hellhounds? IST Sentinels, with better BS and weapons? Neither/both?


That would rather depend on what they do with the armies. If it's SoB and GK codices rather than WH and DH, inducted forces may no longer be an option (if inquisition is a separate army or a suppliment that can be added to other armies all bets are off).


----------



## Silk

TheKingElessar said:


> So...one thing largely untouched on in the thread...if Allies are removed (almost a given) do we expect Inducted Vendettas/Sentinels/Hellhounds? IST Sentinels, with better BS and weapons? Neither/both?


that would be a little too much I think.

The question is what transport options will the IST have in the new codex. Rhinos and will be the Chimera in the codex etc?


----------



## boreas

Well, let's re-quote that answer I got from GW:



> What is clear though is that these things will have been planned for some time so that certain updates and add ons will not have been done as they would be known to be changing in the future and the work would be pointless.


So, they didn't add things for the DH/WH in the add-ons because it was pointless so yes, they did give that answer. I'll be happy to transfer that email directly to you if you think it's fake or something. By the way, I got the same answer from a Developper a few years back (unfortunately, that gentlemen left GW).



> So blatantly true, based on, erm, well it's true because, erm, er, well that is to say it's obvious because of erm, hold on, there is no proof, it's erm, a rant


Oh, wait, you want proof... Euh... Have you bought any GW supplement in the last year? I've bought Apocalypse, Apocalypse Reload, IA: Apocalypse, IA: Apocalypse 2, Planetstrike AND Battlemissions. In all those volumes, I've got new cool rules supplements for ALL armies except DH and WH (oh, wait, 1 asset and 2 datasheets for WH). And don't tell me about forces of the Imperium as those are clearly IG, not DH/WH. So, yes, maybe it's not because GW doesn't care, it's because they are massively distracted and just happen to forget... all... the... time...



> Yep, that's right, it's going to be released with a big sticker on the back that says This codex/supplement/whatchamacallit won't be usable anywhere so screw you buddy


Oh, not at all, I'll be able to use this in my basement with my friend just fine. but try at a tournement. I'll tell yo something, I'll chug down that big American beer if I can use that supplement at either my local tournement or any official GW tournement. Right now, though, the local tournement doesn't accept lists from any supplements like, for example "lustria".



> C: I need to get laid.


My personnal life goes exceedingly well, thank you! :good:

The thing is, GW has avowed neglecting DH/WH (even though they tell in the same letter that we're not treated badly as customers) because they are not sure what direction they will take. Even if, for some reason, that wasn't the case, there is still a vast majority (95%+) of DH/WH players who think so because we're the only armies in that position. If I were not familiar with GW and involved in the hobby for the last 8-9 years, I'd laugh openly at people claiming they will not be squatted. As I know GW is extremely negligent with regards to rules in general, I can still expect that they will come out. In the meanwhile, I am and will be extremely frustrated at GW for never giving us an ounce of regard in all those supplements. Now, I still thank you Bindi for all the rumours and news you bring us and if you want to respond, please feel free to do it by PM. That's going to be my last post for a long time because I don't want this to become a rant thread. See you in 6 months, WH40k, I'm off to WFB...

Phil

PS: to answer DonFer without a new post: all my best friends (practically family) play WH40k, so I can't leave the game... I'm pretty much stuck with this a my main hobby/social network


----------



## DonFer

So much positive energy I feel I'm gonna go and kick the s*** out of my cat right now. 

Don't mean to be rude or aggressive mate, but seriously, if GW has been so bad with you (so much so, that you actually hate the poor bastards), why not leave for good?. You'll spare yourself bad moments and you'll spare us from your constant ranting. :victory: Peace.

Anyways, back to MadCow's comment about IGs in WH/DH armies. Yeap, they were part of the Troops Choice in WH as well as DH. Both of which have been removed from their sections. They were however available in the IG section. I know this because I was looking to buy some IG for my GK army, and was looking at buying the Kasrkin ST because they look cooler. 

I'd like to think that instead of removing the allies rule, we maybe looking at a new ST unit proper of the Inquisition, not part of the IG but rather the Inquisition itself. At least I hope it's so.


----------



## Shandathe

A friend told me today that at GW HQ they're painting up their new Dark Eldar.

:cray:


----------



## raven925

:angry::ireful2::angry::ireful2::threaten::threaten::nono::nono::threaten:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

To go along with what Bindi was saying, if the Grey Knights are released January 2011, can we expect the Stormraven to come out with them? I know I'd like a couple for my BA army, aside from the Grey Knight army I'm looking to start.

As a side note, I can see them releasing a combo dreadnaught box set of a librarian/furioso/grey knight, saying the force weapon for the librarian is the nemesis weapon for a Grey Knight interred etc. would only need a couple of icon parts on the sprue to make them cross compatible. 

just a thought, and a hope.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Crimson Shadow said:


> To go along with what Bindi was saying, if the Grey Knights are released January 2011, can we expect the Stormraven to come out with them? I know I'd like a couple for my BA army, aside from the Grey Knight army I'm looking to start.
> 
> As a side note, I can see them releasing a combo dreadnaught box set of a librarian/furioso/grey knight, saying the force weapon for the librarian is the nemesis weapon for a Grey Knight interred etc. would only need a couple of icon parts on the sprue to make them cross compatible.
> 
> just a thought, and a hope.


On the one hand, it would make a lot of sense to release a lovely new £40 box with a raven inside, for both armies. On the other hand, if it's good enough, people will spend £60 at a time to convert some...so it'd be worth waiting a couple months. Y'know, like with TWC.


----------



## smitty23

I have a bad feeling if they do release the grey knights as a stand alone army they will lose alot of unique attributes the deamonhunters once had. To make the army competative in todays environment they will have to tailor them towards the newer codices. This means all those crazy wargear options for inquisitors....gone most likely. It will be cool for those of us who enjoy the fluff and appearance of a grey knight army. But at the same time i feel they will have a familiar feel to say..blood angels or space wolves. a few special rules and slightly different options with marine stat lines. And even if they are more powerful than blue book marines they will be cost balanced. basically no stronger than any other new codex. People are having high expectations about whats to come but i fear it's mostly hype and we will see a more generic style army with some fluffy rules. Needless to say it's kind of unavoidable if you think about it. They must have more anti tank to stay in todays mech heavy environment. meaning more melta-gun options and las cannon weaponry on vehicles and infantry. Though it will be interesting to see what direction they go for their special rules. I expect to see a decrease in the amount of anti deamon rules unless they come at no cost. No player would normally take army specific counter weapons when going to a big event where you dont know the players and armies you'll be facing. bank on one thing. You will need melta-guns......


----------



## cwcuran45

"... basically no stronger than any other new codex..." This is what I'd hope for :/ 
I will say that the newest Marine dex's seem to have further deviated from the vanilla codex. I could be wrong, but if I'm right then I have high hopes for the GK dex to be very "Grey Knighty" and less Ultra Marine esque.


----------



## rodmillard

smitty23 said:


> And even if they are more powerful than blue book marines they will be cost balanced.


You see, I wouldn't mind paying to be the elite of the elite. PA GKs are already 10 points more than a vanilla marine, and as it stands they need a buff to justify their points cost.

GK Special rules don't have to only be useful against daemons, either. Shrouding needs to be reworked, but it's useful against all armies (arguably better against (eg) Chaos marines or tau than daemons). Rites of Exorcism could easily be reworded to act as a jamming beacon which affects all enemy deep-striking units, not just summonned daemons. NFWs are useful against pretty much everyone as well.

I agree that GKs need more in the realm of man-portable anti-tank, but adding additional options to the existing squads doesn't mean removing the psycannon and incinerator. IMO Justicars should always have had combi weapons and/or thunderhammers as upgrades anyway - either one of those would go a long way towards giving a basic GK squad some anti tank potential.


----------



## smitty23

I agree totally. I guess what i was getting at was...I like the old deamonhunters. They were different  Being original and being competative dont seem to coincide these days in the hobby. I mean every codex has cool stuff so to speak. But some options as cool as they may be just arent reasonable in competative play. Take seth from the BA dex for instance. Awsome looking model with cool abilities and to see him leading an army of well painted flesh tearers commands respect in my opinion. (i think well orginized fluffy lists are the most fantastic) But to be honest i would take a libby for the same amount of points any day of the week. Just sucks. I liked the fact that deamonhunter were sort of out of site out of mind and yet could pull of wins in the hands of a skilled player. That to me was very cool. know what i mean?


----------



## Kettu

smitty23 said:


> I liked the fact that deamonhunter were sort of out of site out of mind and yet could pull of wins in the hands of a skilled player. That to me was very cool. know what i mean?


Unfortunately, a codex should never be written as a 'more advanced' codex. Though some are straighter forward then others you should not have one stuck on hard difficulty. (With a foot note about you can make the army easier to use by bringing in IG to offset the massive drawbacks)

I do know what you mean and as grand as the idea would've been, GW should have sat back and thought about it more. Taking into account the potential popularity of all metal armies that for all intents and purpose, defy the overall direction and plan of the game system as a whole and have a large inbuilt weakness because of the nature of the ally system would allow this to be overcome. 

--

Meanwhile, take this with a Dead Sea worth of salt, my local GW said today that they would be 'informed' about the next 40k codex to come out as well as the date 'within a month'.
The manager himself didn't seem so sure about this and personally thinks GW will just keep it secret till UK Games Day.

Past that I haven't heard anything at all.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

the guy at my local did summat similar. popped in for some sm scout bikers(for the sisters. i didnt realise how many bits came in that tiny box, ive managed to get a bike, and 3 novitiates from 1 £7 box!) while i was there i mentioned i was hoping to get to GD this year and he started getting all antsy, then i said i was hoping to get some plastic GK when they come he just erupted and exclaimed that this GD was gonna be huge for me, and that i should expect to see _something_. i took this with a grain the size of the iceburg that sunk the titanic, and would recommend y'all to do the same. i will add, however, that he just recently took the store over after managing another for some years, and as such has had more direct contact with corporate than most store managers in recent weeks. common sense does apply, and this isnt really a rumour, just passing info to do with as you will!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I am expecting us to hear which is the next codex this month, or at least whats coming in October. Then again if its the Mystery release we wont know until the month before.

As for plastic GK at GD I would expect to see them there. The plastic daemons were shown at GD Spain, so if we see plastic GK at GD UK that should coincide pretty well with a Jan release I think, or with some luck a Nov release.


----------



## Vhalyar

smitty23 said:


> I have a bad feeling if they do release the grey knights as a stand alone army they will lose alot of unique attributes the deamonhunters once had. To make the army competative in todays environment they will have to tailor them towards the newer codices. This means all those crazy wargear options for inquisitors....gone most likely. It will be cool for those of us who enjoy the fluff and appearance of a grey knight army. But at the same time i feel they will have a familiar feel to say..blood angels or space wolves. a few special rules and slightly different options with marine stat lines. And even if they are more powerful than blue book marines they will be cost balanced. basically no stronger than any other new codex. People are having high expectations about whats to come but i fear it's mostly hype and we will see a more generic style army with some fluffy rules. Needless to say it's kind of unavoidable if you think about it. They must have more anti tank to stay in todays mech heavy environment. meaning more melta-gun options and las cannon weaponry on vehicles and infantry. Though it will be interesting to see what direction they go for their special rules. I expect to see a decrease in the amount of anti deamon rules unless they come at no cost. No player would normally take army specific counter weapons when going to a big event where you dont know the players and armies you'll be facing. bank on one thing. You will need melta-guns......


Bu-what? In my mind Space Wolves are the perfect example of what alternative Marine codices should be like. It's packed full of unique elements, the rules strive to be unique, fun and fluffy and the whole package is competitive and highly flexible. It's an army that can go in many directions and still come out on top.

If anything, I truly hope that the Grey Knights will receive a similar treatment. I'd be overjoyed.


----------



## Azezel

(For the sake of fairness - I do not play GK and there's very little chance that I will new 'dex or not.)

I think what Smitty was complaining about was that, changing 'Tactical Squad' to 'Grey Hunter Squad', 'Devestator Squad' to 'Long Fang' squad and then slightly changing the number of permitted marines and weapons is not exactly a massive departure from the vanilla marine book.

Which, in fairness is fine for the Space Wolves and best of luck to them - I rather agree that the Grey Knights need more.


My own Space Wolf (or Blood angel) related fear is rather less mechanical. I can only hope that every noun in the codex is not preceded by the word 'Grey'.

These are my Grey Knights, they are armed with Grey Halberds and have a special rule called Grey Shroud.

That would be a bad sign. I'd sooner not have a Sisters of Battle codex where every bit of kit is called Emperor's NOUN of the Emperor.


----------



## Shandathe

The Grey Knights effectively need a small boost to get them to be as effective as they should be. They're the Nob to the regular Ultramarine Boy. :grin: At the very least, they'll still have their Force weapons. Short of Games Workshop deciding they need to sell more models and busting them down to regular Marine grade, they'll be fine. GW might, mind you. If they do, I predict Grey Knight sales will go through the floor. :headbutt: 

I'm more worried for the Sisters, honestly. Where the GK can simply get upgraded Marine equipment (bigger dreads! Better bikes!), it's not that simple for the Sisters. Other than the no-brainer that is adding the Repressor, GW is actually going to have to *think* and *be creative* to come up with new fluff-fitting toys to fill a Codex...


----------



## TheKingElessar

Shandathe said:


> The Grey Knights effectively need a small boost to get them to be as effective as they should be. They're the Nob to the regular Ultramarine Boy. :grin: At the very least, they'll still have their Force weapons. Short of Games Workshop deciding they need to sell more models and busting them down to regular Marine grade, they'll be fine. GW might, mind you. If they do, I predict Grey Knight sales will go through the floor. :headbutt:
> 
> I'm more worried for the Sisters, honestly. Where the GK can simply get upgraded Marine equipment (bigger dreads! Better bikes!), it's not that simple for the Sisters. Other than the no-brainer that is adding the Repressor, GW is actually going to have to *think* and *be creative* to come up with new fluff-fitting toys to fill a Codex...



I present the following new creative toys as examples that they can indeed do that:

Valkyrie/Vendetta
TWC
Storms
Sternguard
Stormraven
Librarian Dreadnoughts
Thunderfire Cannon
Redeemer

- I have no fear the SoB Dex will be fluffy and fun, with a hard competitive edge. That doesn't mean current WH players will like it in the least though. They may feel betrayed and let down - just like a lot of people were by Nids.

Of course, Nids are pretty solid, if Elite-heavy...


----------



## equitypetey

i actually hope they don't change it too much as i've started to really like playing my GK army, i just want them to fix a few things that obviously need updating.

to be honest i'd be pretty happy with them just fixing things up that need it and give me storm raven gunships.


----------



## Azezel

TheKingElessar said:


> I present the following new creative toys as examples that they can indeed do that:
> 
> Valkyrie/Vendetta
> TWC
> Storms
> Sternguard
> Stormraven
> Librarian Dreadnoughts
> Thunderfire Cannon
> Redeemer
> 
> - I have no fear the SoB Dex will be fluffy and fun, with a hard competitive edge. That doesn't mean current WH players will like it in the least though. They may feel betrayed and let down - just like a lot of people were by Nids.
> 
> Of course, Nids are pretty solid, if Elite-heavy...


I agree with everything you just said - I have little fear that a hypothetical Codex: SoB would be lacking in cool toys*, my fears are limited to fluff alone.

Oh, and though I can't claim to know much about the old 'nid 'dex, the new one seems very cool to me. It has nifty fluff ideas (Narvals - looks like someone in GW is familiar with the idea of an Alcubierre drive), brutal units with cool models (Trigon/Mawloc) and the ability to brutalise me on the battlefield. A class act.

*Okay, I am slightly fearful that the Sisters may get some hand-me-down Space Marine gear which would be somewhat annoying, but I'm prepared to take that on the chin _if_ it happens.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I can only hope that every noun in the codex is not preceded by the word 'Grey'.


never going to happen

This just in

I have discovered
most of the units in the codex:

Greyminators
Greyguard
Greyraven
Librarian Greynoughts
Thundergrey Cannon
Greydeemer
Greyback
Land Greyder
Vindigreytor



Before someone throws a wobbly i'm not serious
or am I?
:threaten:


----------



## Underground Heretic

Well that's just greyt.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Underground Heretic said:


> Well that's just greyt.


Oh noes, is this the beginning of another Taurific?

Im looking forwards to the new Sisters or Ecclesiarchy dex, there are a few things that I think will be very interesting to see.

I would like to see a 200-300 point heavy support for the sisters, I like sisters for many reasons but their flaming theme is what I like most.
It would be really cool if they got a heavy support that used the apocalypse flame template  Regular flamer S4 AP5 but apo template  that would be really funny 

Giving Immolators the 2ed twin flame template would also be cool.
Give retributors the option to carry 2 flamers with the range of inferno cannon flamers.

Before I go OT into wishlist land I will stop.

Grey Knights have allot of Ignore Inv saves and Sisters have allot of Ignore cover saves. I really hope they keep to these themes.
I believe the whirlwind and thunderfire cannon can both shoot barrage weapons that ignore cover saves, this is something the exorcists should be able to do as well. D6 small templates with S5 AP5 that ignore cover saves or D3 large templates similar to the manticore.

Blessed ammunition is something I would like to see get used by more models.
Currently only vehicles can use them, Id love to see retributors get them or maybe a Repressor upgrade that allows the passengers to use blessed ammo when shooting out of it.

Blessed ammo ignores cover saves for those that dont know.

The sisters is a 12-24 inch army and I hope they stick with this but they do need some help. Since sisters are flamer heavy I think giving them flamers with longer range would be just perfect for them. That you could place the template 6" infront of you with a flamer or 12" with a heavy flamer similar to the hellhounds inferno cannon.

Bah, went into wishlisting again...

Anyways, there are so many cool things they can do to the army but I really hope they stick to the 12-24" and flamer heavy theme.


----------



## Silk

Bindi Baji said:


> never going to happen
> 
> This just in
> 
> I have discovered
> most of the units in the codex:
> 
> Greyminators
> Greyguard
> Greyraven
> Librarian Greynoughts
> Thundergrey Cannon
> Greydeemer
> Greyback
> Land Greyder
> Vindigreytor
> 
> 
> 
> Before someone throws a wobbly i'm not serious
> or am I?
> :threaten:


Is taht just a joke or it is possible that all of that will come in the Codex? (ok just with Cool names ^^)

best regards


----------



## Azezel

Don't you mean Stormgreyven and Greyzorback?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Silk said:


> Is taht just a joke or it is possible that all of that will come in the Codex? (ok just with Cool names ^^)
> 
> best regards


it's purely a joke, some of it probably won't be in there



Azezel said:


> Don't you mean Stormgreyven and Greyzorback?


yes, that sounds better


----------



## Silk

Argh damn -.-

don't make such jokes u just killed all my illusions ^^

does you probably now if Rhinos and or Razorbacks and the Redeemer will be in the new dex?


----------



## Creon

Well, we all know what the Sisters will get:

PrayDetor

Wailwind


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Creon said:


> Well, we all know what the Sisters will get:
> 
> PrayDetor
> 
> Wailwind


Dont forget the new act of faith : Emperors Time of the Month which gives all sisters Holy Rage and Furious charge vs male models.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

MadCowCrazy said:


> Dont forget the new act of faith : Emperors Time of the Month which gives all sisters Holy Rage and Furious charge vs male models.


Doesn't that also allow them to add new wargear because it makes them feel "pretty"?


----------



## fynn

it gives them auto hit and auto wounds with no saves of any kid when useing chainsaws...............you never mess with a women when its that time of the month............lol (he says, looking around to make sure the wife doesent see him type this)


----------



## Bindi Baji

Silk said:


> does you probably now if Rhinos and or Razorbacks and the Redeemer will be in the new dex?


I have no idea and won't do for awhile yet at least


----------



## boreas

Well, October is for High Elves... Does that push DE back to January and then GKs even further???

Phil


----------



## TheKingElessar

boreas said:


> Well, October is for High Elves... Does that push DE back to January and then GKs even further???
> 
> Phil


There is a November slot.


----------



## boreas

Well, since HE are only a model wave, I guess, it's still possible... Back to waiting!

Phil


----------



## DonFer

What about September, or December... or even August?


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> Well, October is for High Elves... Does that push DE back to January and then GKs even further???
> 
> Phil


no, high elves have been pencilled in for october for a long while, I hinted a long time ago that there would be pointy eared folk wearing tits on their heads before DE


----------



## bitsandkits

Bindi Baji said:


> no, high elves have been pencilled in for october for a long while, I hinted a long time ago that there would be pointy eared folk wearing tits on their heads before DE


must have been elsewere because this is the first i have heard of it on this forum, every rumour for October had it as the mystery box


----------



## DonFer

I've got the mail this morning and kept me wondering the same, I didn't know there was a WHFB release for October. Where does this leave us?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DonFer said:


> What about September, or December... or even August?


August = Daemons 2nd wave release
September = Fantasy Starter Set with High Elves and Skaven
October = Fantasy High Elves stuff, if its a new codex or just more models I dont know since I could not find the answer in the newsletter.
November = Should be 40K since there hasnt been a 40k release in a long time, the August Daemons dont count in my opinion. They could however do some sort of mystery release or more fantasy just in time for christmas.
December = As of yet has never been a new codex release month, they usually do bundle deals and things like that but never a codex or army book.
January = It is rumoured to be Grey Knights but if DE are not in November then Im worried GK might get pushed back, unless its the other way around and DE are pushed back and GK are released first.

Ive never heard the HE in October rumour before either, from what Ive read most people thought it to be a mystery release just like when space hulk came out.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> but if DE are not in November then Im worried GK might get pushed back, unless its the other way around and DE are pushed back and GK are released first.


DE are so well prepared that they won't be missing november, 
in fact it sounds like the most prepared GW have ever been for a release,
this years production rates (and lack of cock ups siince december) bodes well for future releases



bitsandkits said:


> must have been elsewere because this is the first i have heard of it on this forum, every rumour for October had it as the mystery box


I was going to find the quote and then I realised how many posts I have made here and I decided life was too short, think I mentioned it on dakka as well fairly recently

edit
here it is (near the bottom)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/301972.page


----------



## Brovius

Azezel said:


> Oh, and though I can't claim to know much about the old 'nid 'dex, the new one seems very cool to me. It has nifty fluff ideas (Narvals - looks like someone in GW is familiar with the idea of an Alcubierre drive), brutal units with cool models (Trigon/Mawloc) and the ability to brutalise me on the battlefield. A class act.


Unfortunately, the new 'Nids suffer from a bad case of 'it look good on paper'.
Most of the new rules and models don't stand a chance against the other 5th ed codices, such as SWolves being able to spam missile launchers and lascannons, outflanking Baal Predators with a Flamestorm turret, and IG's gazillion tank variants, each perfect for flooring Tyranids in their own way.

The Trygon is such a cool model and is very useful on the field, but it now replaces the old favourite, and i now have 9 useless Carnifexes 
The Hive Tyrant now has the stats of a Summoned Graeter Daemon, but with an *extra* 70 points and no invulnerable save. 

The FAQ destroys some of the better tactics with Tyranids, too (no more Tyranid Prime joining a unit of Warriors in a Spore).



Now onto a related post, Grey Knights are liely to become the next 'flavour of the month' SM codex. I would not be surprised if we got the Blood Angels codex with different pictures, extra WS tacked on to the units and all references to 'blood' replaced with 'vengeance', and 'Sanguinius' with 'Emperor'.
I would prefer we didn't get this half-minded update, but it's likely. Then again, 'Skies of Vengeace' sounds cool


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Brovius said:


> Unfortunately, the new 'Nids suffer from a bad case of 'it look good on paper'.
> Most of the new rules and models don't stand a chance against the other 5th ed codices, such as SWolves being able to spam missile launchers and lascannons, outflanking Baal Predators with a Flamestorm turret, and IG's gazillion tank variants, each perfect for flooring Tyranids in their own way.
> 
> The Trygon is such a cool model and is very useful on the field, but it now replaces the old favourite, and i now have 9 useless Carnifexes
> The Hive Tyrant now has the stats of a Summoned Graeter Daemon, but with an *extra* 70 points and no invulnerable save.
> 
> The FAQ destroys some of the better tactics with Tyranids, too (no more Tyranid Prime joining a unit of Warriors in a Spore).


Er, the new Nid dex is solid. It can compete with pretty much any army out there. 

Warriors+Alpha in a Spore wasn't one of the 'better' tactics IMO, it was a decent option, but required a whole list build to work.


----------



## Brovius

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Er, the new Nid dex is solid. It can compete with pretty much any army out there.
> 
> Warriors+Alpha in a Spore wasn't one of the 'better' tactics IMO, it was a decent option, but required a whole list build to work.


The main problem is that it is a solid dex, unlike the ridiculous ones that other armies have gotten in 5th ed. Like those untouchable Wolf Jaw Priests in transports, and flying, psychic AV13 dreads, tow cables and tanks that fire 5 plasma cannon shots a turn.
Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Genestealers and Zoanthropes are much better than the last codex, and the Trygon is a wonderful addition, but it peeves me that Carnifexes have been nerfed so horribly.

Also, it used to be cool sporing in 30 BS4 S4 shots from 10 models. Now i guess 20 Devilgaunts will have to do.


----------



## DonFer

Just been visiting the GW site a lot lately and I noticed two very odd things. At first I thought it was the usual GW negligence in caring for their site. But it's been there for a more than a week now.

No IGST anywhere to be seen on the DH section, and

The DH in PA box is not available any more on GW and anywhere else I looked. Moreover, they have been moved to the heavy support section! :shok:

Now I know these are not rumors, but I wanted to ask you guys if anyone knows why are these things disappearing from the DH section. Is it a site problem or is it a sign of things to come? (which I think is the least probable, but still I don't loose hope).


----------



## GrizBe

Rumours say that the new DH codex is now January, bu theres also stuff floating about that plastic grey knights will be making an appearence at Games Day UK... otherwise.. no clue.


----------



## rodmillard

DonFer said:


> Just been visiting the GW site a lot lately and I noticed two very odd things. At first I thought it was the usual GW negligence in caring for their site. But it's been there for a more than a week now.
> 
> No IGST anywhere to be seen on the DH section, and
> 
> The DH in PA box is not available any more on GW and anywhere else I looked. Moreover, they have been moved to the heavy support section! :shok:
> 
> Now I know these are not rumors, but I wanted to ask you guys if anyone knows why are these things disappearing from the DH section. Is it a site problem or is it a sign of things to come? (which I think is the least probable, but still I don't loose hope).


Troop box sets for DH and WH have been gone for a while. Quite randomly, the DH product list still features an IST sergeant, but none of the regular models (or special weapons blisters) - no ISTs at all on the WH page.

I also noticed that Dark ELdar still have their full range available - if they are due for release in November shouldn't stuff have started disappearing by now? Or are they really selling so badly that GW still has warehouses full of them?!


----------



## GrizBe

DE's should start disapearing within the next week or two is GW's sticking to their '3 months before' policy with new codex's etc. 

That said, the DE stuff is some of the few items that stay on the shelves long enough to get sunbleached...


----------



## rodmillard

Just found this on Warseer (in the TK rumour thread, talking about release schedules):


GodlessM said:


> Harry said:
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think DH/WH/DW are combined?
> Why so sure TK are before Orcs and Goblins?
> 
> 
> 
> Because one of the GW guys over here walked up to us not to long ago while we were playing with a black and white work print of the combined DH/WH/DW book. Plus that is what about 90% of rumour sources are saying.
Click to expand...

Harry replied to that saying that as far as he knew the projects had started seperately and he had no reason to believe they had been combined, but it looks like the whole combined-or-not debate has just reopened...


----------



## DonFer

The guys at BoW are saying exactly the same thing, no comfirmation of the rumors, but the buzz is still there.


----------



## Bindi Baji

rodmillard said:


> but it looks like the whole combined-or-not debate has just reopened...


*If* there is a b+w combined ordo workprint then it's not official,
the b+w part is a giveaway for a start.


----------



## fynn

it was probaly a copy of that fan made dex that was posted a few months ago


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> Just found this on Warseer (in the TK rumour thread, talking about release schedules):
> 
> 
> GodlessM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry said:
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think DH/WH/DW are combined?
> Why so sure TK are before Orcs and Goblins?
> 
> 
> 
> Because one of the GW guys over here walked up to us not to long ago while we were playing with a black and white work print of the combined DH/WH/DW book. *Plus that is what about 90% of rumour sources are saying.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Harry replied to that saying that as far as he knew the projects had started seperately and he had no reason to believe they had been combined, but it looks like the whole combined-or-not debate has just reopened...
Click to expand...

I would say 95% of the rumours say its NOT a combined codex. As far as I have found all the top rumours guys have said that its not going to be combined and often refer to a statement by Jervis that a combined codex is pure "fanwank".
I wish it was combined since I want to play both GK and SoB.

Only time will tell I suppose.


----------



## Azezel

Aw, not this dren again...


----------



## GrizBe

I'm betting it was the fan codex thats been known about for some months now.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Have posted the new rumours from Stickmonkey, it will be fun to see what comes out of that thread over at Warseer


----------



## GrizBe

Finally! Some rumours again! Shame pretty much all of them are just confirmations on things that were already speculated... Though the dread sounds interesting with that 5inch blast weapon...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GW has been focusing too much on Fantasy these past few months and its to be expected, for all we know the next 3 months are Fantasy stuff as well (you can use the daemons for 40k as well I know). We are however in the 3 month window for November so Im expecting to see GW release what's coming in their next newsletter. From what's going around we can expect it to be DE, if DE are not in November I would be very surprised.


----------



## DonFer

So if everything goes as always we'll see DE in November and hopefuly GKs in January?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DonFer said:


> So if everything goes as always we'll see DE in November and hopefuly GKs in January?


Id say DE in November is pretty much set in stone, GK in Jan however is not.
I think a Nov and Jan release is a bit close to each other for 2 basically remade armies. I am however positive we will see GK early next year, from the new rumours we will see GK 1st quarter 2011. Either in Jan or March it seems from what Stickmonkey said on Warseer.


----------



## exsulis

Eek, this thread is really long to dig through 

DE in Nov
According to Stickymonkey, and Harry from Warseer:

_"Originally Posted by Stickmonkey View Post
Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released aren't far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.

Release items:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.
There you go.
(I have tried to put you straight on this one ever since you started posting).

I have had them coming in March for a while now (since I got Dark Eldar solid in the Autumn) but I have recently heard from a couple of places January being suggested. Like you, I wouldn't like to say for sure just yet.

Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).
Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.
Maybe some sort of colour coding"_

Then Harry posted this nugget:

_"The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after."_


----------



## Vhalyar

oops, my mistake...


----------



## Bindi Baji

I have heard january for GK from more then one source now *and* I have seen more then a few things to come now, 
some bits are fairly well advanced as well. (I have not seen models, I rarely see models in advance)

That said, I sort of agree with this:



MadCowCrazy said:


> I think a Nov and Jan release is a bit close to each other for 2 basically remade armies.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

exsulis said:


> Eek, this thread is really long to dig through


You dont have to, everything thats worth reading I put in the rumours section, even stuff posted in this thread. Everything you posted could already be read in the rumours section on the first page.

Basically you dont need to dig, just keep an eye on the thread title date to see what dates this thread gets updates. All the updates will be on the first page of the thread either in the News or the Rumours section. I date everything so it should be easy to find.

If someone posts something thats interesting, a good rumour or news I put it in the rumours section and you can then discuss it at the back of the thread.
This thread was started in December last year if I remember correctly so its very old, I did lose the first rumours section which was Dec-May but I now back everything up since it will happen again due to post size limitations.

If you like the thread give rep or click on my daemon to show support 

I hope the thread over at warseer will reveal as many rumours as the first one did.

Im trying to get Harry to spill the beans on what he meant when he said SoB wasnt started directly after GK. I guess we could see a codex in between GK and SoB, possibly Necrons.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Im trying to get Harry to spill the beans on what he meant when he said SoB wasnt started directly after GK. I guess we could see a codex in between GK and SoB, possibly Necrons.


S'far as I recal, word-on-the-street was that GK and SoB were started at the same time, but GK just progressed faster. This never seemed very likely.

In any event:



Bindi Baji said:


> ...I do know there is (another) marine codex that should fit in somewhere...


GW likes to do marine, other, marine, other, so my guess is:

DE
GK
'Crons
Marines of some kind (Chaos Marines?)
SoB.

Spikey Marines might make a perverse kind of sense right before Codex SoB...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I asked Harry this question back in March, this is what he said then :



Harry said:


> Woah ... too many questions.
> 
> When I first heard about this I heard Grey Knights and I heard Sisters of Battle. I heard about them as separate codex's and I heard about them in that order.
> 
> All the best,
> Harry


Basically that SoB were started after GK.


----------



## ownzu

i really hope we still get allies and that its not a pure gk dex  i want inq st's and daemonhosts and crap


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I guess we could see a codex in between GK and SoB, possibly Necrons.


at the very least there will be "one", it sounds like more then one to me though



ownzu said:


> i really hope we still get allies and that its not a pure gk dex  i want inq st's and daemonhosts and crap


everything I have seen so far indicates no allies at all in the codex itself and I can cast-iron guarantee it is codex: grey knights and not codex: daemonhunters


----------



## HOBO

I think the new Rumours are hinting at IST's still been in, but other than that it's a GK Codex.

I'm liking the new psycannon and NFW upgrades - AP3 and all-PW (for PAGK) is great.
I'm also stoked that Jetbikes seems to be a non-starter, and also the 'no Rhino' transport options..far too much like a generic SM force for my tastes.

Who needs stuff like that when GK are the teleport maestros. That said, I would like to have heard something about that particular capability been beefed up.

Thanks MCC for your hard work at keeping us in the loop.


----------



## Tuatara

HOBO said:


> Who needs stuff like that when GK are the teleport maestros. That said, I would like to have heard something about that particular capability been beefed up.


Agreed, even if it is only half scatter. They are specialised in it afterall.



HOBO said:


> Thanks MCC for your hard work at keeping us in the loop.


Seconded. Thanks man...or woman.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tuatara said:


> HOBO said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MCC for your hard work at keeping us in the loop.
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded. Thanks man...or woman.
Click to expand...

Np, I got tired of having to go to 5 or more forums looking for information and then having to try and puzzle it all together, I figured I wasnt the only one who felt this way so I decided to compile all I could find into a single thread.

After about 6 months of updating the thread I was asked if I wanted to become a GM, I felt this would be great since that meant I would be able to update the date on the thread title (which was updated only once in 3 months because I had to ask a GM to do it).
With becoming a GM comes some responsibility, mine is to get you guys updates on what armies might be next. As you have probably seen I have also created a DE thread since they are very likely to be next.

I will keep 2 stickies going with rumours on the next armies, I feel there should not need to be more than 2 since there are a couple of months in between releases anyways.

So once DE are out that thread will get moved to the rumours roundup section and I will start a new one. Not sure which army might be after GK but I think its leaning towards Necrons.

I will keep doing this for as long as I am interested in the hobby, so expect to see threads for many years to come


----------



## Bindi Baji

HOBO said:


> I think the new Rumours are hinting at IST's still been in, but other than that it's a GK Codex.


I haven't seen anything about them either way but given that GK aren't the cheapest of troops, IST's or something similar isn't impossible


----------



## HOBO

Bindi Baji said:


> I haven't seen anything about them either way but given that GK aren't the cheapest of troops, IST's or something similar isn't impossible


Exactly...I think it was Stickmonkey himself who said in a later post that even though he said 'fodder', he made the point that in relation to a Gk a fully equipped IST is still a ppor substitute..hence 'fodder'.

Still, we shall see what transpires:search:


----------



## DonFer

Yeap, thanks MCC for the info and updates on this thread. I always wake up in the morning and hope there's some new information about GKs. As someone said once: "the waiting part is the worst..". 
Cheers!


----------



## GrizBe

I'm still kinda of surprised there been no word about DE disapering from sales yet... if the scheduals what we think it is, you'd think DE's would be disapering now given GW's 3 months before policy when redoing a range. 

My local store managers known for keeping quiet about what he know's, but even he seems to have genuinely no clue. Usually he knows a month in advance to everyone else, and you can tell he's having to keep quiet about it... this time though.... :scratchhead:


----------



## Azezel

Aye, there's the rub. If it's DE next (and that seems to be as close to concrete as it'll ever get) why are they still for sale?

And why were SoB gutted in _January_ if they're not due until _2012_?

I don't doubt that DE are next, it just looks a mite bizarre.


----------



## bitsandkits

Azezel said:


> Aye, there's the rub. If it's DE next (and that seems to be as close to concrete as it'll ever get) why are they still for sale?
> 
> And why were SoB gutted in _January_ if they're not due until _2012_?
> 
> I don't doubt that DE are next, it just looks a mite bizarre.


im not convinced the DE are next, got my updated order list today and they are still on it, sisters and deamon hunter totally missing and have been for a while.


----------



## Azezel

What's the lifespan of an order list? Do you get a new one monthly? Quarterly? Just whenever? That would give us an earliest-possible date, at least.

Anyway, hat's precisely my point: I cannot reconcile the model availability with the overwhelming strength of the DE rumours.

Nevertheless - I fear we must place more weight with the rumours than with product availability. If we work only from product availability then both GK and SoB should have been published last month at the latest - so product availability doesn't seem to be a reliable barometer in this case.

Which is weird, but once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


----------



## shaantitus

Maybe it is something to do with production as the Inq models are all metal. Is there any difficulty getting hold of the metal DE models? The plastics may be unchanged in the new release.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I also find this very strange. Whats even more strange to me are the SoB release rumours.
If we look at the suggested release schedule we have DE, GK, Something (Necrons?), SM, Xeno and then SoB.

I have read many times people claiming SoB will be the last codex to get updated before 6ed, this just doesnt make sense to me because by then SoB would have been blisters for 2-3 years.

What Im hoping for looks closer to this : DE, GK, SoB or DE, GK, Xeno, SoB.
I just hope SoB arnt the last codex to get updated before 6ed and then half their rules becoming obsolete.


----------



## tu_shan82

It is odd that GW haven't yanked DE stuff from what is for sale. In fact it confuses me and makes my head hurt. I don't know what to believe anymore.


----------



## bitsandkits

shaantitus said:


> Maybe it is something to do with production as the Inq models are all metal. Is there any difficulty getting hold of the metal DE models? The plastics may be unchanged in the new release.


If this stuff was coming in november i would have expected to see the codex and the less popular box sets fall of the order sheet by now, but everything i have ever been able to order is still present. IF the codex is still available by september order sheet i will be amazed if we see DE in november.
Plus if memory serves november is generally christmas promo month, this is normally when we get big box sets, limited edition cases,box sets with paint sets.
i still think we wont see them until easter.
I think its gonna be 

August deamons
september island of blood
october high elves
november christmas stuff
december nowt
january sisters/grey knights
feb tomb kings
march Dark eldar


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You really think its going to be Sisters and Grey Knights in one codex? Id really like this but from the new rumours it seems it wont happen.


----------



## Kettu

I really hope it isn't a combined codex.

Meanwhile, the 'Sisters last to be updated' came about when someone asked Jervis at the (I think) 2008 GD about when Sisters would be updated and he replied with words to the effect of the Sisters were at the end of the update schedule.

I couldn’t even be bothered to look for the original quote.

Meanwhile on Warseer, with a bit of GW logic I have now worked out when to expect the Sisters Codex:


> Ok, so Sisters were not started straight away.
> So Necrons?
> But then, if it's Necrons and then Sisters that would mean it's been two releases without marines.
> So Black Temps?
> But then there would be two Imperium releases without Xenos.
> So Tau?
> But then that would again be two non marine releases.
> So Dark Angels?
> 
> So the Sisters are still due circa the other side of the apocalypse, got ya.


----------



## mahavira

Given that they did SM-Imp Guard-Space Wolves I don't think they're too concerned about too many imperium in a row. If the codexes are separate, I would pay money to find out what reason they had for pulling the WH/DH line at almost the exact same time, treating both identically in expansions (aka ignore completely) and so forth, much as I would be fascinated to know why if the next codex is dark eldar the WH/DH stuff was pulled so far in advance. Maybe they'll do an interview when they finally release whatever it is and actually explain...


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> Given that they did SM-Imp Guard-Space Wolves I don't think they're too concerned about too many imperium in a row.


Getting an imperium and then a xenos on the schedule is not planned, 
that's been mentioned by everyone in the studio many times at games days and seminars, 
however GW fandom is chock a block full of conspiracy theorists and paranoia.


----------



## GrizBe

Theres really only three logical reasons I can think of for DE not being pulled yet...

1. DE aren't comming out in november.
2. DE sold sooo badly they're trying to get rid of the massive backstock.
3. Theres been some elaborate double bluffing, and we'll be getting GK's and the Stormraven as an x-mas box set when they'll sell massively.


SoB's are the real confuser though. As pointed out, to do them last and not have the sets for them could pretty much kill the army, and GW has said that 'no armies will be squatted'. Since its 99% confirmed that its now Codex Grey Knights rather then 'Codex Deamonhunters' or 'Codex =I=, this would seem its not a combined codex, so thats out... 

GW just makes no logical sense anymore.


----------



## fynn

well, in reguards to GW and there weird planning, as the saying goes "ours is not to reason, ours is to do or buy".............lol
tbh pulling 90% of the DH/WH range of the shelves back in the year, and then waiting almost a full year for some of it to be released is a fucked up plan, and if we are seeing DE in november, then the stock should going from the shops now, to get ready for there release, but tis still there, and as B&K said, he can still order it on his latest order sheets.


----------



## Creon

If the DE are totally redesigned as is rumored, the Xmas box push may well be DE. I hope so, we'll see. The total redesign may explain also why the product isn't being pulled. It's all going to be trashed when the new stuff comes out, they may want to flush stock.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> SoB's are the real confuser though. As pointed out, to do them last
> 
> GW just makes no logical sense anymore.


SOB's won't be the last codex for this edition by a long, long shot

GW rarely make sense.

As far as i'm aware DE are already in the packing process ahead of schedule and will be ready to ship for november.

I have no idea why the DE stuff is still on sale, and as mentioned before that's one of my biggest gripes with the company already.

I would go so far as saying items should be pulled a fair bit ealier then they currently are when they are getting a release and people buying models close to a release without knowing there is an update soon, should be given refunds if they want


----------



## GrizBe

I'd agree with that. Especially in the case of DE's since the entire range is being remodeled.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wouldnt mind buying some older stuff from GW at say 50% off, but I guess they would rather just melt everything down and recast using the new molds.


----------



## fynn

GW selling old stock at 50% off are you crazy......................lol. GW dont do sales anymore, back in the 90's they did, but now they just want to screw us for every peeny they can


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I wouldnt mind buying some older stuff from GW at say 50% off,


something similar happened at games day before once, and in my dreams once forgeworld had a half price weekend but my credit card was eaten by the chinchilla


----------



## MadCowCrazy

fynn said:


> are you crazy


Look at my name and guess 
I actually have papers as well pretty much stating Im crazy 

Anyways I think we should see something at Games Day UK, I would not be surprised at all if we got to see plastic GK there.


----------



## fynn

i will be watching the forums on games day for any pics of nice new shinny marines, as i wont be going, unless someone gives me a free ticket, as i be buggered if im going 30quid for a ticket, when i can go to other game shows like colours and pay 6 quid for the whole weekend............sorry went off on a bit of a rant there.....................(wanders off into the distance mumbling about GW prices.mumblemumblemumble)


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Anyways I think we should see something at Games Day UK, I would not be surprised at all if we got to see plastic GK there.


I think you may get some artwork, and piccies if you're lucky.

I suspect there will be lots and lots of island of blood and Dark Eldar coverage


----------



## DonFer

I think that we should have someone at GD in order to root out all the information about DE, GK and SoB. Someone like a paparazzi that doesn't leave the GW people's side. :crazy: That is the only way we'll know. :grin:

In the meantime, remember people that we are basing our conclusions on rumors only, no hard facts. I reckon the only hard fact we now have is DE still being on the shelves, and GKs and SoBs are not. Hell, GW might have revamped the complete DE range a year ago, but decided to shelve it until whenever. If there is a new range of DE minis, then we should have seen at least one leaked photo or smthg (we get those everyday for new stuff coming out, iPhones, Computers, celebrities...)....Ok maybe not but you get my point, same goes to GK/SoBs. So based ONLY in the fact that there aren't any GK/SoB in stock I'll venture my guess that we might see them earlier than DE. Maybe all of them next year.


----------



## Doelago

Hey, MadCowCrazy, I really thin that you should check out this site: http://segmentummichigandus.wordpress.com/

It looks like having some quite solid info, and good links to other sites...

They also had this on the site, I dont know if you already have it, but it sounds very solid to me: 



> Removed by the Ordo Rumourus by the charge of heresy against the truth that is the God Emperor.
> I decided to remove these rumours because they have been proven to be false and I dont want another discussion to bloom from them since they have no merit.
> Sorry Doelago but better luck next time unish:
> MadCowCrazy



I hope this helps, and keep digging out information, cause I really want to know if and when we get a new codex...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Those rumours are actually from early may this year. They were posted over at DakkaDakka. I used to have them up in my first rumours section. If you check my second rumours post which would have been lost as well if I hadnt copypasted it losing all the color and quote codes 
Basically it goes back until mid May which means this was one of the last things to get lost.

I may be wrong but I think those rumours were posted by some guy who later said he made it all up, dont quote me on this though. Bah, now Im going to have to dig through Dakka to try and find the original post.


30/05/2010
I saw a poster refer to the below post over at WarSeer. From what I have gathered it seems DE are next but could there be any truth to this post?
With the fake rumours posted over at DakkaDakka Im very sceptical on unknown people posting rumours.
Many people have commented that Jervis and a few others have said there will be no combined codex (GK&SoB),
the rulebook mentions Forces of the Imperium rather than DH and WH. Could they have planned to combine them from the start?
I choose to be sceptical, you make up your own minds.


The thing that annoys me is that you can find these rumours on many sites, they have bothered to post them because they were new and interesting but didnt bother checking the development of the rumour until the poster said he made it all up.

Found the origional thread over at Dakka.

Last quote from the guy before his thread was closed :


Lying Bastard said:


> Wow, nice long thread I created here...
> 
> 
> ...too bad I made all those rumours up.
> 
> I just wanted to see how big a false rumour thread would get. I have heard some stuff about the upcoming Codex:Blood Ravens though. Anyone wanna hear?


----------



## GrizBe

Yeah, just looked.. those were the fake rumours.


----------



## hungryugolino

Thank the Emperor. We might still get allies and the interesting bits.


----------



## GrizBe

Actually, the Good rumour merchant Stickmonkey has said there will be no allies.

As pointed out before, this is because too many people used it as an exploit.


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, it's a very good thing that these rumours are made from whole cloth.


----------



## Bindi Baji

hungryugolino said:


> Well, it's a very good thing that these rumours are made from whole cloth.


that particular one isn't


----------



## hungryugolino

We'll see in a few months. 

Unless you've got a direct connection with the GW board of directors, your source is probably not completely well informed...


----------



## HOBO

hungryugolino said:


> We'll see in a few months.
> 
> Unless you've got a direct connection with the GW board of directors, your source is probably not completely well informed...


That's the dilemma with any and all rumours..you could post this exact same post after every other poster puts up some comment on the rumours...it's a neverending roundabout until the Codex is 'in hand'.:headbutt:


----------



## DonFer

Yeap my thoughts exactly. I'll believe there's gonna be no allies the moment I see a document where it explicity sez: "Sorry dude, NO ALLIES in this CODEX!" :biggrin:


----------



## Purge the Heretic

On Stickmonkey:

From what I've been able to piece together, he sees things very early on, mainly CAD drawings, many of which never make it to production.

So as far as rules and design philosophy rumors, it seems as if his info may be coming second hand.

That doesn't mean there isn't some truth there, but I recommend a bit of caution before everyone starts frothing.

the no-allies thing is a good bet, they've even pulled dogs of war from fantasy by my understanding, and fantasy seems to be a more casual game.

But its not a sure thing, after all, my Sister's of Battle codex was violently replaced by the travesty that was the witch-hunter's codex...though we did gain a few goodies, my easy bake ovens left me with far too many heavy flamers.


----------



## rodmillard

I wouldn't be surprised to see allies gone, in line with GWs "1 codex per army outside apocalypse" philosophy. However, several people on Warseer have hinted at "familiar" units appearing in the codex. That may be wishlisting, or it may be people in the know giving half-hearted confirmation to ISTs. Equally, though, it is not outside the realms of possibility for "Inducted Guard Platoon" and "Inducted Tank Squadron" to make an appearance, possibly with different options to the units in C:IG. This would keep the army to 1 codex, and avoid a repeat of the problems we had with inducted units when C:IG was redone last year.


----------



## DonFer

I think the no allies rumour was based on the fact that GW screwed-up the PDF version of both GK and SoBs Codex. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't seem to find any rumours of no allies before this. 

I don't see Inquisitors being removed form the Codex, maybe Assasins and if there is a new way to deal with HS maybe they get rid of the IST too, but I don't think they just dismiss allies and leave us with GKs only, unless there's a really good reson behind that move. Anyway, that's what I think and I'm onlya new player...:victory:


----------



## Bindi Baji

hungryugolino said:


> Unless you've got a direct connection with the GW board of directors, your source is probably not completely well informed...


and what about if I was God, would that count hmm? 



DonFer said:


> I think the no allies rumour was based on the fact that GW screwed-up the PDF version of both GK and SoBs Codex. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't seem to find any rumours of no allies before this.


I posted it back in january I believe


----------



## hungryugolino

> and what about if I was God, would that count hmm?


Even then, you still need to cite your source by name for us to believe you. 

And, Baji?

Where are you allegedly getting your information from, anyway?


----------



## smitty23

It's wierd. For DE's so called november release their isnt much chatter going on in their threads..While this thread never seems to stop. It seems people are just more excited about the GK's. Generating alot more buzz. Perhaps thats why GW sticks with the imperium armies being revamped more often and given love. Because the fans love them too and they know this. I know alot of people say they hate marines but sadly it is probably 70% of the market for 40k. You cant deny that they should get more frequent updates. I'm a guard player myself but new marine releases even excite me. Hell new releases period excite me. People say they really wanna see dark eldar but what they really want to see is some variety i think.


----------



## Azezel

Purge the Heretic said:


> far too many heavy flamers.


It's strange... I understand every individual word in that sentence, but somehow, when you put them all together it just doesn't make a lick of sense.



smitty23 said:


> You cant deny that they should get more frequent updates.


By god I can.



Anyway - 'No Allies' seems to be a fairly solid rumour, and allow me to play pariah by supporting it.

It seems from where I'm sitting that the allies rules as they currently stand are overwhelmingly used as a crutch by players of other armies looking for a Mystic cheap shot or Psychic Hood.

I guess it'll suck to be them in a few months, but those of us who play the actual armies involved (and I mean GK and SoB, not DH and WH) aren't loosing anything.


----------



## GrizBe

@Above ^

Hence my reason for hoping Allies have gone. Too many people exploited them and used them to beef up their armies because they couldn't work with what they had.

IE... a crutch for bad players and the ever hated power gamer.


----------



## Babypowder

Even if C:GK comes out and doesn't allow allies, they still have the C:WH to use the Psycic Hood 'crutch'. If you are believing the rumors anyway, its very likely that the replacement for that one is still a ways off(Or in some rumors not coming...)


----------



## Logyn

The *FACT* that ally rules will not be in the redone Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle Codex is pretty easy to figure out even if you don't have a source. GW releases PDF's with the ally rules removed and explains that the ally rules are for a different rule-set. GW has removed allies from every other aspect of the game over the last editions. It will absolutely 100% confirmed-many-times-by-GW not be a combined dex, and while it may have 'inducted' unit entries, it will *NOT* have ally rules (I don't even know if there are inducted units or not, but that's as much as we will possibly get). You can bet the farm on that. Welcome to 5th edition.

While I can't say how I know, I can tell you all in good faith that most people will be pleasantly surprised by the New Grey Knights, and that I will relish the screams of "ZOMG BROKEN" when the codex is released early next year.

Until then, we get to watch the DE players froth at the mouth while they wait for the conformation of the inevitable November release.

That is all, keep fighting the good fight. For the Emperor!


----------



## Bindi Baji

Logyn said:


> and that I will relish the screams of "ZOMG BROKEN" when the codex is released early next year.


you can tell a codex is really good when all you can hear from forums is "overpowered" and "codex creep" from one side and "broken"and "man, they wrecked my army" on the other side,

whilst the general (and quieter) players are happy.


----------



## GrizBe

As long as I get to shoot and stab stuff while bullets ping harmlessly off my armour, I'll be happy. :biggrin:


----------



## DonFer

Logyn said:


> The *FACT* that ally rules will not be in the redone Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle Codex is pretty easy to figure out even if you don't have a source. GW releases PDF's with the ally rules removed and explains that the ally rules are for a different rule-set. GW has removed allies from every other aspect of the game over the last editions. It will NOT be a combined dex, and while it may have 'inducted' unit entries, it will NOT have ally rules (I don't even know if there are inducted units or not, but that's as much as we will possibly get). You can bet the farm on that. Welcome to 5th edition.


This is of course a matter that has caused much debate, headaches and bad breath for a long time. Still I can agree that it is more likely that Allies are rooted out from the new Dex, even when GW has claimed that the omission was a mistake. But what does No Allies mean? I would really appreciate your help with this to clarify

1. IST are not considered Allies, as far as I understand, as opposed to the Inducted Imperial guard. If we "believe" the PDF version of the Dex, there should be IST in the new DEX. HOWEVER, all rumours point to a pure GK dex not a Daemonhunters Dex. This can easily eliminate the IST from the new dex

2. No army will be able to field a Inquisitor and/or GKs. They should be an stand alone army (this of course with or without the Inquisition troops)

3. Without the Allies Rules, we will not be able to field an Iquisition army, namely SoB and GK together.

4. No Daemonhunters only GKs. This is the point I'm worried about. I really like inquisitors and of course their retinue, and eliminating them will be a major blow to the Daemonhunters. Does this mean we're gonna get a Chapter Master and stuff? Is this a way of making the GKs more "astartes-like"?

5. Something I missed or missedintepreted..:crazy:

Your Thoughts Gentelmen?


----------



## rodmillard

Bindi Baji said:


> you can tell a codex is really good when all you can hear from forums is "overpowered" and "codex creep" from one side and "broken"and "man, they wrecked my army" on the other side,
> 
> whilst the general (and quieter) players are happy.


Ummm... have you read the Daemons book for Warhammer Fantasy? Meets all your requirements, except the happy silent majority.


----------



## Bindi Baji

rodmillard said:


> Ummm... have you read the Daemons book for Warhammer Fantasy? Meets all your requirements, except the happy silent majority.


I was expecting to be proved wrong on that point with CSM, but that'll do :grin:


----------



## gen.ahab

Well I one think all the 5th edition dexes, up to this point, have been great. Wolves might be a bit above the rest but not enough to actually do anything at the more competitive levels. Sure, 4th edition players will throw a shit fit when grey knights start plowing through them like a horny rhino.... but no more so than any other 5th Ed codex.


----------



## Logyn

DonFer said:


> But what does No Allies mean?
> 
> 1. IST are not considered Allies, as far as I understand, as opposed to the Inducted Imperial guard. If we "believe" the PDF version of the Dex, there should be IST in the new DEX. HOWEVER, all rumours point to a pure GK dex not a Daemonhunters Dex. This can easily eliminate the IST from the new dex
> 
> 2. No army will be able to field a Inquisitor and/or GKs. They should be an stand alone army (this of course with or without the Inquisition troops)
> 
> 3. Without the Allies Rules, we will not be able to field an Iquisition army, namely SoB and GK together.
> 
> 4. No Daemonhunters only GKs. This is the point I'm worried about. I really like inquisitors and of course their retinue, and eliminating them will be a major blow to the Daemonhunters. Does this mean we're gonna get a Chapter Master and stuff? Is this a way of making the GKs more "astartes-like"?
> 
> 5. Something I missed or missedintepreted..:crazy:



To be clear, I have no direct knowledge of what non Grey Knight units are in the codex. Assassins and Inquisitors are likely still there, but with less of a spotlight on them. As for IST's, I have no clue. All I know is that whatever ends up in the GK's book will be ONLY for that book. Cross-army Allies are gone. They aren't going to stick around, and they will likely not come back. It is very likely that GK's and Sisters will not see each other on the same side of the table outside of Apocalypse (not completely in effect until the new Sisters Dex drops though). I seriously doubt we will get a Codex:Inquisition, and find it far more likely that the Inquisitional forces we all know and, uh, love(?), will remain as codex entries. This coincides with the more reliable rumor sources on the web. 

And if you don't believe anything you've heard so far (which you probably shouldn't :biggrin at least find comfort in the logic that they can't possibly fill an entire codex with just Grey Knights in different FOC's and expect it to sell. There has to be at least a little extra crap between the covers.

On a separate note, Stickmonkey threw a Test List up on Warseer a while ago. It looks incomplete, but the Stormraven in the Fast Attack Slot makes me smile. It's not an innocent smile. :grin:


----------



## HOBO

> On a separate note, Stickmonkey threw a Test List up on Warseer a while ago. It looks incomplete, but the Stormraven in the Fast Attack Slot makes me smile. It's not an innocent smile.


I saw that as well - 30/35 models in a 2K list. I'm OK with being outnumbered, but hopefully not still outgunned, especially in the anti-armour department.


----------



## rodmillard

And for those still worried about =I= presence in the army, there was a mystery unit of 10 troops accompanied by an IC in a chimera. They may not be the ISTs we're used to (or presumably StickMonkey would have just said ISTs) but there is *something* there


----------



## Bindi Baji

Logyn said:


> I seriously doubt we will get a Codex:Inquisition, and find it far more likely that the Inquisitional forces we all know and, uh, love(?), will remain as codex entries


it won't be a codex per se, it'll be an expansion type thingamejig, and I think you'll find that all the usually reliable sources have heard something very similar since (or around the same time),
and there are no assassins at all in the GK codex.

Feel free to hold me to these on release


----------



## GrizBe

I'd be happy with a low model count army of GK's for a 2000pt game. Its just how GK's should be since they're hard as nails. Darn the point expense, just hope the cash expense isn't ridiculous, as thats what put people off them origionally with everything being metal and costing a fortune.

As for no assasins... that does kinda fit with the GK fluff, they don't need it... But, hopefully though, IF we get an =I= suppliment, it'll have some rules for having an inqusitor and assasins added to them. Just hope they're expensive to kill them off as a crutch for the bad players who exploited them.

4-1 outnumbered by orks with that test list, and the GK won.... ouch.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Azezel said:


> Quoting me: "too many heavy flamers"
> 
> Azezel said:
> It's strange... I understand every individual word in that sentence, but somehow, when you put them all together it just doesn't make a lick of sense.


...I have 16, I can't even fit them all in a FOC.

3rd edition army list, before witchhunters, you could have an immolator carrying 4 heavy flamer retributers X3 (I think 3)


----------



## Logyn

Bindi Baji said:


> there are no assassins at all in the GK codex.
> 
> Feel free to hold me to these on release


It's odd, I had heard that the Assassins and Inquisitors weren't going anywhere. Do you "know" this, or are you quoting someone else? 
Anyway, here's hoping for some solid info, though I expect we have a few months to go before we start really hearing things.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm still surprsied at the total lack of DE chatter... We may be low of GK rumours, but at least we seem to get something new every week... when did we last hear about anything DE related?

Makes me hopeful that maybe, GK's might be slightly sooner then we think....


----------



## gen.ahab

Start your own thread, I will be glad to post what I have hear, although I doubt it's something new.


----------



## DonFer

GrizBe said:


> I'm still surprsied at the total lack of DE chatter... We may be low of GK rumours, but at least we seem to get something new every week... when did we last hear about anything DE related?
> 
> Makes me hopeful that maybe, GK's might be slightly sooner then we think....


May the Emperor hear your words! :grin:


----------



## gen.ahab

I doubt it. From what I hear they are due for a Jan release.


----------



## rodmillard

Yeah, I don't really expect GK before january. I just think GW have done a really good job keeping the lid on DE, ready for a "surprise" reveal at GDUK.


----------



## GrizBe

Like they kept a lid on Warhammer Fantasy 8th, yet pretty much everyone in the know knew about what was comming for it months ago....?


----------



## gen.ahab

Actually they really haven't kept DE all that tight if the rumours are true.


----------



## GrizBe

Thats kinda my point... GW aren't very good at keeping a lid on things, and usually stuff leaks more and more the closer to a release... 

GK we get new stuff weekly... DE we've had hardly anything despite it meant to be out in 3 months... hence my wondering about GK being closer then suggested. 

I'm still happy with the penciled January release... but a guy can hope.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You guys should check out Dice Like Thunder and podcast 97. They have some interesting things to say about DE, GK and WH. Putting it in rumours now but gonna take a while.


----------



## gen.ahab

GrizBe said:


> Thats kinda my point... GW aren't very good at keeping a lid on things, and usually stuff leaks more and more the closer to a release...


Sorry, I should have been clear. I wasn’t talking to you.

@Bovine spongiform encephalopathy(IOW madcow),
They have some and they also have it on The Independent Characters and 40k radio. Probably should just make a list.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I listen to them all, if they have nothing new to add neither do I but they did have 1 gem that struck me hard. They claim WH will be a WD update, this would really suck imo.
Would that mean no new plastic kits? No new units? Just updated rules for the old units?

Lol, broke the rumours section again. Np this time though since I now backup everything I write.


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> I listen to them all, if they have nothing new to add neither do I but they did have 1 gem that struck me hard. They claim WH will be a WD update, this would really suck imo.
> Would that mean no new plastic kits? No new units? Just updated rules for the old units?
> 
> Lol, broke the rumours section again. Np this time though since I now backup everything I write.


that would make no sense as they have removed the range from sale,what would be the point of updating in WD and having no models to sell?if it were going to be the case they would have left the minis on sale.

to be honest we have nothing concrete about any 40k army other than 2 armies have been totally removed from sale and have pdf codexs free online.


----------



## gen.ahab

SOB were removed from the site?


----------



## Babypowder

gen.ahab said:


> SOB were removed from the site?


Tons of their stuff has been removed from the store(Like the sisters of battle squads, now you seem to have to buy them in 3s.) and things like that.

BTW, would it make sense that the Dark Eldar arent getting new rumors as often because they ARE so close and that most of the rumors are actually true therefore no new rumors to really leak? That would kinda explain the lack of chatter probably. Not saying that is true, just a thought.


----------



## gen.ahab

Well that’s unfortunate, I always wanted to make a small army of which hunters.


----------



## GrizBe

Only new thing to me there was the SoB rumour... I seriously doubt that though. As Bits pointed out it makes no sense. Doing that ammounts to squatting them, and Gw have said no armies will be squatted. Plus, from what I know, SoB's sold better then DE's... so updating them properly but not SoB's is stupid.

@Babypowder: You could think that, but then we've had practically nothing at all on them. True, most of the GK rumours are just repeats or 'confirmation' from differing sources, but we are still getting far more chatter for them then for an army that is suposidly in iminant release status. Given a november release date... DE should be disapearing from the store and shelves and order list for independant traders by now, yet you can still get everything easily.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wouldnt be surprised if GW re-released the metal Sisters boxes with new art and nothing more for 5£ more than before.

If you look in the news section you can see when things were removed from the GW sites.

I think we will get to know whats in November this weekend, since the last newsletter was about IoB the next one should be about November. It will be interesting to see to say the least.

Im going to sell my GK and SoB pewter models sometime later this year to fund new plastic ones. I really hate pewter, cant stand it tbh.


----------



## Azezel

GrizBe said:


> Only new thing to me there was the SoB rumour... I seriously doubt that though. As Bits pointed out it makes no sense. Doing that ammounts to squatting them, and Gw have said no armies will be squatted. Plus, from what I know, SoB's sold better then DE's... so updating them properly but not SoB's is stupid.


DE sell better than SoB. I don't think DE sell well, just better - SoB have always been the least popular army.


As for repackaging - I think BB said that was the plan, though one wonders why they'd do that, and how long it takes, six months and counting now.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> DE sell better than SoB. I don't think DE sell well, just better - SoB have always been the least popular army.


TBH, it IS kind of hard to sell an army that no one knows about and by nature of them being all metal I can't imagine that'll win any friends either.

Sadly GW is yet to grasp the basics of selling a product it would seem.


----------



## bitsandkits

Kettu said:


> Sadly GW is yet to grasp the basics of selling a product it would seem.


Considering they have been selling products for over 30 years i think they have got a pretty good grasp of the market they are in, there strategy seems strange because it does not fit the retail "norm" or it does not fit with our expectations for the hobby, but ultimately they have been doing this along time and no one else has come close to showing them how it should be done.
Thats not to say they couldnt do things better or differently but they are still here so they must have a grasp.


----------



## Kettu

Ok, so my comment isn't correct. However, if the Sisters are being delayed/squatted due to poor sales when GW has made absolutely no visible effort to make this army known to their customers then they are showing really poor business and retail sales skills, if any at all in this regard.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If GW does not come out with plastic sisters Im going to start making my own resin version and selling those. Going to name my webshop -MadCowCrazys shop of wonders and my slogan will be -Providing what GW does not since 2010!


----------



## GrizBe

I'd buy that for a dollar


----------



## DonFer

Kettu said:


> Ok, so my comment isn't correct. However, if the Sisters are being delayed/squatted due to poor sales when GW has made absolutely no visible effort to make this army known to their customers then they are showing really poor business and retail sales skills, if any at all in this regard.


For what I know, and this I'm sure is no rumour at all, GW has stated that NO army is getting squatted. Moreover, SoB have the least amount of rumours compared to DE and GK, so I can't see any delay in their product line. Only thing for sure is that their models, for whatever reason (diabolic or not :grin have been removed from sale. What does that mean? Only GW knows for sure.


----------



## andrewm9

bitsandkits said:


> Considering they have been selling products for over 30 years i think they have got a pretty good grasp of the market they are in, there strategy seems strange because it does not fit the retail "norm" or it does not fit with our expectations for the hobby, but ultimately they have been doing this along time and no one else has come close to showing them how it should be done.
> Thats not to say they couldnt do things better or differently but they are still here so they must have a grasp.


The problem with sisters not selling well is that its probably self-fulfilling. Don't support them in any way, and they won't sell.

Think of it this way. Lets not update any Space Marine codex for 3 editions and not make any new models for them and go back to the old metal so their options when buying them are limited. Space Marine sales would plummet.

Currently, Sisters cost about 120 dollars US per squad to field if you buy 7 sisters, a special wpn, a heavy flamer, and a superior along with a rhino. This will net you 2 extra sisters each squad if you want to add some variety. I say that because you have no choice in which of the 7 or 8 poses of sisters you get in the three pack. This is for your regular troop choice.

Seraphim (jump pack sisters) will cost slightly more than that for a squad of 10 since you must buy them individually and not in 3 pack blisters. The basic Seraphim is 14 dollars US right now and the Sister Superior is slightly cheaper at the moment.

Other model rpices in the range are equally ridiculous like heavy weapons being 14 dollars also.

See where this is going? Could you ever in talk someone into starting a decent sized sisters army at those prices? I agree that it seems like GW is wanting to sabotage the line. I think someone over there at GW hates the idea of Sisters.:angry:

Nothing to do though but wait and see.


----------



## mahavira

andrewm9 said:


> The problem with sisters not selling well is that its probably self-fulfilling. Don't support them in any way, and they won't sell.
> 
> Think of it this way. Lets not update any Space Marine codex for 3 editions and not make any new models for them and go back to the old metal so their options when buying them are limited. Space Marine sales would plummet.
> 
> Currently, Sisters cost about 120 dollars US per squad to field if you buy 7 sisters, a special wpn, a heavy flamer, and a superior along with a rhino. This will net you 2 extra sisters each squad if you want to add some variety. I say that because you have no choice in which of the 7 or 8 poses of sisters you get in the three pack. This is for your regular troop choice.
> 
> Seraphim (jump pack sisters) will cost slightly more than that for a squad of 10 since you must buy them individually and not in 3 pack blisters. The basic Seraphim is 14 dollars US right now and the Sister Superior is slightly cheaper at the moment.
> 
> Other model rpices in the range are equally ridiculous like heavy weapons being 14 dollars also.
> 
> See where this is going? Could you ever in talk someone into starting a decent sized sisters army at those prices? I agree that it seems like GW is wanting to sabotage the line. I think someone over there at GW hates the idea of Sisters.:angry:
> 
> Nothing to do though but wait and see.


I guess this is Bindibaji's cue to gripe about conspiracy theories (though if he has a problem with conspiracy theories an internet rumors thread is probably the wrong place to hang out).

I suspect that one or more of the rumors we have heard is wrong (I suspect the November release for Dark Eldar is wrong - none of the observable phenomena supports it), and/or there is something big we don't know. If Sisters are not due out till the end of 2011, why on earth not support them in Planetstrike (two full years between releases) or Battle Missions (year and a half)?

Btw, when did GW last say no armies were being 'squatted' and did they use the term 'squatted'? It occurs to me that the term 'squatted' is open to two interpretations - squats were not just discontinued as an army, they were exterminated from the setting (by contrast chaos dwarves still exist in wfb setting, but like Araby and Cathay have no model line or army book). Also, companies do change their minds, and if it's been a year or more since the last such announcement, they could have looked at the sales figures and reconsidered.


----------



## GrizBe

Spotted this posted by Stickmonkey over on his Warseer thread in reply to someone saying if the points costs are gonna go up, they'll just buy a few blisters now:



Stickmonkey said:


> "Funny you should say that. Conversation this morning about that very issue...personal conversation, no new rumor here...why would the new box sets sell if the army is limited? A: Because the new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.
> 
> And compared to the admittedly nice metals, I personally think the new plastics will make you weep with joy. I'd say think of BA as a test bed for what they can do in plastic now.
> 
> 
> BTW, that AL did have 2 HQ units, one was GK with Retinue, the other was a named character. My understanding is the character joined the 10 man squad and neither was actually in the chimera, just using it as a shield. "



Soo... defiantely lots of options. The new plastics.. comparible with the Space Hulk BA's etc?

And not using the chimera as a transport.... perhaps not IST's since the named character joined the squad?? Unless, the named character was an Inquisitor?

Also this as I didn't see it here:



Stickmonkey said:


> Other:
> Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.


Can we have a GK statue like the space marine one please?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Its now official, I will be going to Games Day UK in September. Main reason I will be going is to see if there are any GK or Sisters info I can gather but I will also keep an eye out for DE if they haven't been announced by then. I have never been to Games Day so it will be interesting but my travelling schedule isn't that forgiving, 3 days without sleep 

Im not sure if you are allowed to take pictures inside, GWs site said the professional use of camera equipment is prohibited or some such. I will see what I can do, Im sure someone here has been to GD and will know about the photograph rules.


----------



## fynn

shouldnt be a problem, going by the amount of pics that appeared last year during and after GDUK


----------



## rodmillard

Its been a long time since I went, but there never used to be any problems with photos "for personal use" - just don't turn up with any equipment that could be mistaken for pro kit!


----------



## DonFer

And what about the GenCon? Is GW in? I've seen a lot of news from privateer and other minis manufacturers. Perhaps there's still time to harrass those guys for some info....


----------



## gen.ahab

GenCon is US based, it would make sense for privateer press to release some new models there. Probably won't see anything until gamesday UK.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

As I have never been to GD I dont really know what its about other than tournaments, developer talks and model showcases. If anyone has any suggestions as to what I should keep an eye out for there please let me know. As I will have been awake for atleast 24hours when I arrive there I might not be at full mental capacity 

I will try my best, I should be able to get 4 hours sleep at the train station (doubt it though) before my train leaves for Birmingham in the morning. I will also be arriving a little late, 10:10 or some such the train should arrive at Birmingham, not sure how far the NEC is from the train station.


----------



## rodmillard

MadCowCrazy said:


> I will try my best, I should be able to get 4 hours sleep at the train station (doubt it though) before my train leaves for Birmingham in the morning. I will also be arriving a little late, 10:10 or some such the train should arrive at Birmingham, not sure how far the NEC is from the train station.


Your best bet is to get a commuter train from Birmingham New Street to the NEC (which has its own train station). Not sure how often they run on a saturday, but www.nationalrail.co.uk should set you right.


----------



## Vhalyar

More play test information from Stickmonkey:



> Corrected Psycannon profile (updated with new info):
> 24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
> or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)
> 
> Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.
> 
> GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.
> 
> Disclaimer: Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.


----------



## DonFer

I'm loving the new GK Annointed Armour bit, this is really cool! :crazy: Woohoo, I mean .... great news indeed. As I can percieve it, a lot of playtesting is going on right now, so I think is safe to say the January/March date is pretty much accurate for a GK release. I'll be holding back my x'mas present for later then..k:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have found this whole GK and DE thing really confusing. A few months ago we started getting DE weapons rumours, the poisons and all that. This is something we usually do get and I think its related to playtesters talking about the test dex a bit too loud.
We also got GK weapon stats a few months ago, mainly that NFW would be S6 rending, we have now also gotten rumours from playtesting. Again this is something that happens a few months before release, what I find strange is that we have had no DE playtesting rumours. This could be because they are not the next codex or it could be that the people playtesting them havent talked loud enough about their games.

If DE are due in November that means the playtesting should have been completed some month(s) ago so that the codex can be finalized for print. Where are the leaked playtest games? Maybe there isnt as much interest in DE as there are in GKs?

Im pretty sure the next newsletter will reveal whats to come in November unless they want to keep it secret and do a big reveal at Games Day?



rodmillard said:


> Your best bet is to get a commuter train from Birmingham New Street to the NEC (which has its own train station). Not sure how often they run on a saturday, but www.nationalrail.co.uk should set you right.


You scared the shit out of me there, I thought I had booked myself for the wrong day!
Games Day UK is on a Sunday 
I will be going from : 08:50 - london euston 10:34 - birmingham international (copy paste from my e-ticket)
Im taking the first direct train from Euston to BI on Sunday morning, I will be arriving at 10:34 so I will be 34min late but that should mean less queue or none at all.

I will be flying with Ryan air from sweden to Stansted but arrive very late on Saturday 22:55, take a buss to town, walk to Euston and wait 4 hours until the train leaves.
All in all this trip has cost me 150€ so far, just a bit of food and I should be all set.
Im far from rich so this will have to do, its 150€ less I get to spend on GKs so you guys better be grateful 

Off topic? Not really since I am going there to gather GK and SoB rumours, figured if I reveal my travel plans maybe someone will hook up with me. Then again I will be arriving a little late. There was another train that would arrive at 10:10 but that train had 2 changes and Id rather just take the direct route and be done with it. I would have prefered the 9hour train that left at 00:10 so I could get some sleep but there is just no way I could get to the train station in 1 hours from stansted airport.

On another note I think Ive found the dark gods gift for paint stripping. I put a gretchin in it for 24 hours and when I pulled it out it had no paint on it what so ever, didnt even need to brush. Ive put about 20 gretchin and some orks (all 2nd edition, got 100 from ebay for 5£) in it and Im gonna check on them tomorrow. If the paint is indeed gone I will write a tutorial on this stuff. Almost seems too good to be true, maybe I put a unpainted gretchin in it the first time.

Could people who have been to Games Day or are going there say what they know about the even in a PM to me? There is almost no info on GWs website, I looked at everything they have posted about it. They have listed no date or time for the event, I had to look at the picture of the ticket on their website to see what date and what time it actually start. Thats just shitty information handling.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> On another note I think Ive found the dark gods gift for paint stripping. I put a gretchin in it for 24 hours and when I pulled it out it had no paint on it what so ever, didnt even need to brush. Ive put about 20 gretchin and some orks (all 2nd edition, got 100 from ebay for 5£) in it and Im gonna check on them tomorrow. If the paint is indeed gone I will write a tutorial on this stuff. Almost seems too good to be true, maybe I put a unpainted gretchin in it the first time.


You, Sir, have my undivided attention. I'm something of a bathtub alchemist myself and I have never come close to such promising results.


Oh, and I must caution you - British trains are nothing like you're used to in Europe. Prepare to be horrified...


----------



## hungryugolino

Please go into detail about the paint stripping...

My plastic minis need their primer removed.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I just want to make sure the stripping actually works, for all I know I could wake up to a bowl of melted plastic tomorrow. Also since these gretchin werent painted by me I dont know if they were primed or not before painted. I tried some different stuff with some interesting results, basically Im trying to find something that doesnt cost 10€ per 20 models to strip. Brake fluid is both toxic and expensive but works, now Ive got some power spray thats not toxic but works just as good but costs allot more. We dont have any Simple Green here where I live.

I will let you know this weekend how it turned out.


----------



## Azezel

That's because Simple Green is mythical. You'd be better off looking for unicorn's tears than that stuff.


----------



## hungryugolino

Nonsense. I've bought three bottles from the supemarket next to my college.

Not that it can remove primer properly...

It still works better than the farce that was pine sol. Stupid fluid's not only toxic, but useless for anything other than making the miniature sticky to the touch.


----------



## Kettu

Mad Cow, if i had a spare few thousand I'd be already booking a flight over. (And then a week or two's worth of sightseeing after that) Sadly I'm a starving student who can only dream of a future of money.

None the less, could I provide you with a few questions for you to ask JJ and others on my behalf?


----------



## Vhalyar

Kurgash at Warseer posted a rumor saying that Matt Ward is writing the Necron codex, scheduled for release after the Grey Knights. If true, that tells us that Matt Ward is not writing the Grey Knights codex. That's worth celebrating.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I don't know about that ... he wrote C:BA and I think he has done a very good job with that. That is my own opinion though ... others may not feel that way. It would be hard for him to write both at about the same time I would think. Course, I am not very knowledgable in time frames of how long it takes to do a codex from start to finish.


----------



## Babypowder

So I was just wondering how true everyone thought the sisters of battle being updated through white dwarf rumor is?

Also on the paint stripping thing. I use this stuff called Purple Power. It was in the auto section at the local walmart, I'd say its basically the same thing as any concentrated cleaner/degreaser product you'd find in an auto section so if you don't actually find Purple Power it'd probably be the same stuff. I've never really tried anything else to compare it to but this stuff is pretty awesome. It was only about 5$US for a decent size jug and the stuff is actually reusable anyway. Most of the metal models after leaving in it overnight come out pretty much completely paint-free, maybe minimal scrubbing helps. I've also put plastic in it, takes a little more scrubbing but still works. It isn't toxic and can be dumped down the drain, it's smell really isn't too strong or that bad either. You can leave models in it as long as you want without damage also I think, I left some in for about 3 days once. It also dissolves super glue(might have to scrape some extra away) so glued models will probably fall into its original peices. Another thing it does is get rid of green stuff. So trying to save green stuffed models probably isn't a good idea but if you want the green stuff mistakes off your model it'll work for that also. This stuff is just really great for stripping though.

Oh ya...it also will take off primer with the other paint.


----------



## gen.ahab

hungryugolino said:


> Nonsense. I've bought three bottles from the supemarket next to my college.
> 
> Not that it can remove primer properly...
> 
> It still works better than the farce that was pine sol. Stupid fluid's not only toxic, but useless for anything other than making the miniature sticky to the touch.


If you live in the us it would explain why you can find it.

At whoever said it was impossible to locate..... Ever heard of shipping? Not that it is a good idea but you can still get it.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

dunno if I can help much on the Gamesday front having been once to the NEC despite living 15 minutes drive away from it for nearly 10 years now. But if I remember correctly they have a seperate seminars around the big hall. The big hall has numerous tables for gaming on whilst there were separate rooms for golden daemon entries, forge world and black library and another for where the games designers talk about upcoming stuff (probably where they will announce new stuff if at all). Regarding cameras I would ask how hard would it be to take a few pictures on a phone without them noticing?

Anyways have a happy trip and all the best!


----------



## Azezel

Babypowder said:


> So I was just wondering how true everyone thought the sisters of battle being updated through white dwarf rumor is?


It seems unlikely, but I don't think we can call it impossible at this stage of the game.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Mad Cow, if i had a spare few thousand I'd be already booking a flight over. (And then a week or two's worth of sightseeing after that) Sadly I'm a starving student who can only dream of a future of money.
> 
> None the less, could I provide you with a few questions for you to ask JJ and others on my behalf?


The whole trip for me costs 150€ from Finland, this is travelling expenses, I wont be staying at any hotels or such because there will be no time. My schedule is pretty tight. I guess if you live in the states or some such it would be allot more expensive but isnt there a Games Day US?

Anyone can give me questions to ask to the designers but I can not guarantee that I will be able to get answers, or even meet JJ. I did not buy a seminar ticket so I dont know if I will be able to sneak my way into one of those.
I will be walking around allot and harass as many GW employees as I am able to until they throw me out in my quest for answers, ahh, what dont I do for you guys...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

To my knowledge I think that the ticket itself grants access to the seminars. There is just not a lot of space in them so push your way in quick.


----------



## GrizBe

To get back on topic...



> Corrected Psycannon profile (updated with new info):
> 24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
> or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)
> 
> Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.
> 
> GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.
> 
> Disclaimer: Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.


If thats true and what we're getting, thats awesome! Especially if the Annotined Armour is in addition to it being Artificer armour.... 2+ rerollable saves? Damn...


Also... on the point of their being no leaked DE rumours about playtesting etc...

For me its still boiling down to:
1. DE Are not next.
2. There just isn't any interest in them.
3. We've heard everything of note about them already and there is nothing new or interesting to report.

Given the signs, I'm more inclined to believe the first two... There is still chatter floating about that plastic GK's will preview at Games Day soo... its all too confusing.


----------



## Azezel

ArmouredWing of B&C has been talking to his 'friend' again.



Armouredwing said:


> Well, I had a chat with one of my friends in the know over the last couple of days and there's some good news... but some not so good as well.
> 
> The model side of the GK's is being worked on, something that we have been aware of and the work is well under way. However, there's not going to be a release any time soon (read: within the next 6-8 months).
> 
> The long and short of it is that there's not anything planned for the start of 2011 in terms of =][= releases because the design work isn't anywhere near that stage yet. DE are next in the queue and there's going to be something coming out pretty soon in terms of release date. I've also found out that Necrons are apparently a lot further along than folks may realise. Whether that means we're looking at 2 xenos releases in a row isn't clear but it does sound like necron players are pretty close (well as close as 6 months or so can be) to getting an update.
> 
> The bad news is that there's nothing been started in terms of Sisters. So we're looking at a long, long wait before we get anything new. With that in mind I'm starting to wonder what other imperial forces are being planned for the interim? As I hear more I'll let folks know.


And:



armouredWing said:


> [Grey Knight] Rules my be in the playtest stage but I remain unconvinced as to a release at the start of next year.


----------



## gen.ahab

GrizBe said:


> If thats true and what we're getting, thats awesome! Especially if the Annotined Armour is in addition to it being Artificer armour.... 2+ rerollable saves? Damn...


Yeah, don't get your hopes up. That will never happen. I doubt your baseline troop will end up having anything more than 3+.


----------



## GrizBe

@gen.ahab: Stickmonkey and Harry have both said GK's are geting artificer armour as basic, so I'm inclinded to believe that as its come from 2 of the best sources.

And I call shenanigans on that Armourwing post. Firstly, 6-8 months... Several sources are pointed to a Jan release, at the latest March... and thats within that time period. Plus, we've had mention of concept art etc seen by the people who'd have access to it, so saying the design work isn't anywhere near is bull too. We've also had several reliable sources say that work on SoB's has started not long after GK's started... so thats strike 3 in my mind as thats just one source contradicting what several known reliable sources have said different.


----------



## gen.ahab

It's too powerful, I don't see it getting through the PT phase... At least not with the reroll rule still intact. I could see giving them FNP, maybe, but 2+ reroll is totally ridicules. No offence meant to the sources that brought this. BUT.... You can see why I would find this a bit distasteful and I actually like GK.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I am hearing that the SOB codex may be released before new models, 
this would tie in with a few other things i've heard (which would make sense if this were true)
This could also mean the SOB are not as far away as I thought (pure speculation)



GrizBe said:


> IF we get an =I= suppliment, it'll have some rules for having an inqusitor and assasins added to them.


assassins will be included in the =I= supplement/doo daa according to what i've heard


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> It's too powerful, I don't see it getting through the PT phase... At least not with the reroll rule still intact. I could see giving them FNP, maybe, but 2+ reroll is totally ridicules. No offence meant to the sources that brought this. BUT.... You can see why I would find this a bit distasteful and I actually like GK.


If you can field twice as many units, then that's the same survivability but with far greater firepower. If you actually think about it it's not as crazy as it sounds, because those little groups of Grey Knights aren't exactly the most killy things around.

Shrug, wait and see.


----------



## hungryugolino

Matt Ward's not doing Grey Knights? Thank the Emperor for small mercies.


----------



## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> I am hearing that the SOB codex may be released before new models,
> this would tie in with a few other things i've heard (which would make sense if this were true)
> This could also mean the SOB are not as far away as I thought (pure speculation)


Hahaha, classic. :laugh:

2nd ed and we get a codex which tells us that it is incomplete as an army.
3rd ed and we get a codex and an incomplete range of mins and no plastics.
5th ed and we don't even get minis any more.

I'm laughing so hard right now.

I mean, it's not like GW constantly promote themselves as a 'miniature company' or something silly like that.


----------



## gen.ahab

Vhalyar said:


> If you can field twice as many units, then that's the same survivability but with far greater firepower. If you actually think about it it's not as crazy as it sounds, because those little groups of Grey Knights aren't exactly the most killy things around.
> 
> Shrug, wait and see.


Yes but most armies don't have 2+ on their baseline infentry and all the combat power these guys should have.


And what is wrong about this Matt Ward fellow?


----------



## GrizBe

Vhalyar said:


> If you can field twice as many units, then that's the same survivability but with far greater firepower. If you actually think about it it's not as crazy as it sounds, because those little groups of Grey Knights aren't exactly the most killy things around.
> 
> Shrug, wait and see.


Hence why I'd tend to believe that. GK's are the uber-elite. Heck, that playtest army, 2000 points and only 15 non character GK's in it for an army of 35 models. Fluffwise, a single GK is worth a squad of normal terminators, so something like that is perfectly within keeping for them. They are meant to be powerful as they're the force that deals with threats even normal marines can't.


----------



## GrizBe

Seems DE may be next if this I just found is to be believed.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=700400&postcount=17


----------



## gen.ahab

Seems to agree with what most people have been saying for the past month or two.


----------



## hungryugolino

Feth the space-elves.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> 5th ed and we don't even get minis any more.


if you look back to my post you'll see I said the rumour I heard was that the codex would come _*before*_ the models


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If GW is indeed changing their release policy then I could see that happening, would really suck though because the only thing available would be the metal blisters and those are expensive to say the least.

I would just proxy with something else until new ones came out.


----------



## DonFer

I hope your trip will be fruitful and enjoyable, though with such a tight schedule you'll end up sleeping for a whole day when you come back. I wish I could also be there but alas i cannot, so I'll just wish you good luck and happy hunting!


----------



## rodmillard

Maybe no *new* models, but a repack of the squad boxes with different (ie useful) weapon options, as was suggested a while ago? Would still be expensive to collect, but at least its better than the current prices!


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> Yes but most armies don't have 2+ on their baseline infentry and all the combat power these guys should have.
> 
> 
> And what is wrong about this Matt Ward fellow?


We don't know about that. Harry said Artificer armour is baseline, but he never said what its effect was; he's always skirted around saying anything more that "baseline AA". Maybe it's actually that Anointed stuff. It's also possible that different play tests have incorporated one but not both rules. I mean, let's take a look at what Stickmonkey actually said:



> GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor


Note: Grey Knights only (so it can't be an Inquisition leader) and it covers Terminator, Artificer and... Power? If Artificer is baseline, then why mention PA? PA wouldn't exist if that was the case.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Stickmonkey _never_ said anything about AA being baseline.


Edit:


GrizBe said:


> Hence why I'd tend to believe that. GK's are the uber-elite. Heck, that playtest army, 2000 points and only 15 non character GK's in it for an army of 35 models. Fluffwise, a single GK is worth a squad of normal terminators, so something like that is perfectly within keeping for them. They are meant to be powerful as they're the force that deals with threats even normal marines can't.


Exactly. They seemingly can't field vast swathes of units like other Marines can, so they need _something_ to keep them going. Their strength would be that what they field _stays_ on the field, whereas other Marines field larger numbers knowing that their firepower will progressively dwindle.

*Edit 2: More rumors from Stickmonkey*



> Some bits:
> 
> Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works w/ SS. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)
> 
> 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT
> 
> 'Shrouding' basically unchanged...aka nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor? IDK)
> 
> 'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into diff terrain.
> 
> 'Aegis' enemy Psykers w/i 12" take psychic tests with +1d6


----------



## GrizBe

Vhalyar said:


> Note: Grey Knights only (so it can't be an Inquisition leader) and it covers Terminator, Artificer and... Power? If Artificer is baseline, then why mention PA? PA wouldn't exist if that was the case.


What about that ???? Unit in the playtest? I know most are assuming that its IST's, but what if they've upped them too to have some form of AA that isn't based on PA? Then that could cover it... But then, maybe AA isn't Artificer Armour... Arbites Armour?

Fluffwise, we know GK armor is a custom job anyway, what with them having the Liber Daemonicum embeded in the chest... so even their normal power armour is artificer armour... giving them normal PA, but with just an anoited rule is a little too like normal marines.

And I'm probably rambling.... lol


----------



## gen.ahab

Aegis armor. It's what they have always worn and it's a 3+.


----------



## Katie Drake

gen.ahab said:


> Aegis armor. It's what they have always worn and it's a 3+.


...

You sir are a genius. AA could indeed stand for Aegis Armor and would make some sense... :good:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Valerian said:


> Stickmonkey,
> 
> I received a similar note concerning this purported Walker via PM from someone that I trust. He said this "exo-armour" had stats/abities reminiscent of an Avatar.
> 
> V


This seems interesting indeed


----------



## soulreaver296

I called it back in my first post. It looks like GW is doing everything it can to make sure that the new GKs sell (providing that what we are hearing now stays true to the release). Super elite army with amazing weapons and armor, crazy fast/skimmer transports, MC Dread-likes, GORGEOUS Models (if the current are anything to go by), etc. And it makes sense; if rumors (including these) are true, then GW is release TWO ancient, high risk armies BACK TO BACK.

(unless they DO go with another army for Jan... but even then, the only other one we have heard anything about are Necrons, setting us up for the triple threat)


----------



## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> if you look back to my post you'll see I said the rumour I heard was that the codex would come _*before*_ the models


I was laughing my way to an asthma attack last night when i typed that but none the less, why would GW suddenly break pattern with Minis and Dex release at the same time on the Sisters?
Even more so when you consider they are one of the least selling armies.

If GW did do that I hardly see many dexes selling at all and then there begins the wait for the minis.

And it took Daemons what, 2 years just to get their second wave release including the daemon prince who was made what, 2 years ago?

So do Sisters players have to then wait another year or two for minis?

I could potentially see GW trying this new business direction on say the Space Marines who are almost all plastic already that no new kits wouldn't even matter but on one of the least popular?

Sadly, if what you have heard is true, it would seem to lend credence to Dice Like Thunder's rumour of a WD 'get-you-by' codex as WD codices have never been accompanied by miniatures.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> why would GW suddenly break pattern with Minis and Dex release at the same time on the Sisters?


It does sound like there will be a change in release policy, apparently Harry has been talking about it coming in the near future - but this was the first I have heard of it.

I imagine it comes down to the problem of "ancient codexes" ie - DE, 'crons, WH, DH - etc

Would you rather have to wait 3 years for a new codex that comes with models or would you rather wait 18 months and get the models turning up bit by bit between 18 months and 3 years? :scratchhead:

It *could possibly* solve the problem of armies not selling due to outdated rules and would let the team update the dodgiest looking models when they wanted, as opposed to waiting X years until the codex is released - by which time there is less incentive to make new models/rules as the the army aren't selling anyway


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> Aegis armor. It's what they have always worn and it's a 3+.


I shortened it in my post, but Harry specifically said Artificer, so he wasn't talking about the regular Aegis.


----------



## Babypowder

It would make some sense to release a Sisters of Battle codex with no minis at around the same time as they do a Grey Knights one. It would completely eliminate the use of the allies for other armies all at once, instead of just losing the ability to use allies because of DH codex while WH still existed.

They could also throw some packaged sets back on the store, like new versions of the ones they have taken down, and basically call Sisters of Battle done at that point. Since it is indeed such an unpopular army it would make sense to give them such minimal treatment.

Of course this would mean that the codex's release wasn't as much meant to revamp the army as it was to simply keep its ruleset inline with the rest. Which GW definitely is not known to do. Just saying though.


----------



## Shandathe

For all that it's creaking with old age... The SoB codex still works well enough that it's becoming secondary to new models to me. I'm relatively sure a new codex should *at least* be accompanied by some new models for the standard squad of Sister-with-Bolter, preferably in plastic. We *need* a new Sisters of Battle Squad. Seriously, we've already been stuck with nothing but blisters for half a year now, and those models pull duty as everything on the FoC except HQ.

That's not to say GW doesn't badly need a more finegrained way to adjust unit rules/point costs aside from codex releases. Things like the Repentia and the sheer no-brainer that is Rhino cost... Pfff. 

As it stands there's a vicious cycle going on of ranges not getting support because they don't sell well and consequently selling even worse because they're not supported...


----------



## gen.ahab

Vhalyar said:


> I shortened it in my post, but Harry specifically said Artificer, so he wasn't talking about the regular Aegis.


Aegis armor is what they have always used in the fluff, and it's a type of artificer armor that has a 3+, I see no reason why they would change years of fluff for such a thing as a 2+. Fact is, changing it to artificer armor makes no sense.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If GW does start selling vehicle upgrade packs like it has been rumoured for GK I could see this work very well with Sisters. You could easily make a repressor upgrade sprue for rhinos, a exorcist upgrade sprue and a new immolator upgrade sprue with options for inferno cannons if they do get that. Then again GW are a greedy bunch and would throw in a crappy rhino in the kit and sell for more $$$. Rhinos are a dime a dussin now on ebay simply because they come in pretty much every kit bits sellers want.


----------



## GrizBe

> Stickmonkey,
> 
> I received a similar note concerning this purported Walker via PM from someone that I trust. He said this "exo-armour" had stats/abities reminiscent of an Avatar.


That makes sense for GK's since Dreads aren't 'fluffy' for them.


----------



## Azezel

I've often thought the same thing.

I'm not sure that GW would be doing the greedy thing to chuck a rhino in with the 'upgrade sprue'. a Rhino costs £20, an Immolator costs £20.

Wouldn't GW rather sell me a Rhino for £20 AND an Immolator or Repressor sprue for £5? Or an Exorcist sprue for £10.

That said, much as I like the Repressor model, I'm not sure it's such a good unit, it seems expensive points-wise for what is essentially a Rhino with extra fire-ports.

Oh, and I'd second Inferno Cannons for the Immolator, and maybe Plasma Cannons too?


----------



## rodmillard

Azezel said:


> That said, much as I like the Repressor model, I'm not sure it's such a good unit, it seems expensive points-wise for what is essentially a Rhino with extra fire-ports.


Beautiful model, I have two of them doing sterling service as counts-as chimeras in my Arbites themed IG army. But without a major points drop (or improved weapon options) I don't see me using them for SoB any time soon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> I've often thought the same thing.
> 
> I'm not sure that GW would be doing the greedy thing to chuck a rhino in with the 'upgrade sprue'. a Rhino costs £20, an Immolator costs £20.
> 
> Wouldn't GW rather sell me a Rhino for £20 AND an Immolator or Repressor sprue for £5? Or an Exorcist sprue for £10.
> 
> That said, much as I like the Repressor model, I'm not sure it's such a good unit, it seems expensive points-wise for what is essentially a Rhino with extra fire-ports.
> 
> Oh, and I'd second Inferno Cannons for the Immolator, and maybe Plasma Cannons too?


Thats just the point, a rhino costs the same as a razorback, immolator and chaos rhino. Why would anyone buy a rhino when you can buy a razorback and get the exact same thing with an extra sprue. For the Immolator and Chaos Rhino they just exchange the extras sprue with a chaos extra and immolator sprue. If you look at the Whirlwind, predator, vindicator they cost 7£ more than a rhino, baal at 10£ more. So GW could sell the upgrade packs for 7-10£.
However, on ebay and many bits sellers you get a complete rhino for around 10£ a pop. So anyone not buying from GW can get them half price really easily, I believe GW knows this and thats why they create full kits.
Is it a sustainable sale plan? Who knows, I know I would rather buy the upgrade sprues rather than the whole thing though. Bits sellers know this but end up with tons of rhinos noone wants because of it.

Of course the Repressor would get a points adjustment, probably down to what Blood Angels pay for a rhino or razorback, 50-55points. Is there such a big difference between a BA Rhino and the Repressor? BA gets the Fast rule, Sisters would get 6 fire points and a heavy flamer. Of course they would get regular rhinos for 35 points if you wanted that as well.
Immolator will probably be brought down to Razorback costs, Im looking at the BA codex and one costs 55, it has pretty much the exact same options as an immolator plus a few more. The Immolator can take a HB for +5 points or a multi melta whist a razorback can take TLAC, TLLC or LC and TLPG. Heavy bolter and heavy flamers are free options. Other than this weapon loadout is the same. The RB can take a storm bolter whilst a Immolator can take Blessed Ammo, Holy Icon, Laud Hailer or Holy Promethium.
So all in all a BA Razorback and Immolator are very similar.
If the Immolator remains a Heavy Support I would hope they would give it some upgrades, like Inferno cannon and side sponsoon inferno cannons. This would fit really well with the flamer theme the sisters have going.
Then again Id also give sisters blessed flamers and blessed heavy flamers that work the same way as an inferno cannon but at reduced range, 4" for flamer and 8" for heavy flamer. Basically I want the sisters to stay a 12-24" army but with current editions they could use a little help getting into range with their flamers. Enough wishlisting from me.

I dont think plasma fits with the sisters, for me its flamers and melta that they are all about. Heavy Bolters fit with the whole gunline army they got going and blessed ammo solidifies the Ignore Cover theme sisters have.

I am a bit sad about the DH psycannon profile ignoring cover saves with the blast but then again I think they would really need that vs gunline guard for instance. With proper placement you only hit 1 model with a hit and max 3 with a scatter. The blast template isnt that big.

Im really looking forwards to what they will do for sisters, and they should make a plastic battle sisters squad box with heavy weapons options in it. With that you could make every single sisters unit in the game currently. Just use the seraphim jetpacks to make plastic seraphims or you could buy jetpacks from gw or many other sites.

I really hope I will get to talk to someone about Sisters and GK at GD, its really frustrating the way they treat Sisters. Its like they want them to fail because they havent done anything to support them at all over the past few years if you dont count 2 apocalypse entries.


----------



## Vhalyar

gen.ahab said:


> Aegis armor is what they have always used in the fluff, and it's a type of artificer armor that has a 3+, I see no reason why they would change years of fluff for such a thing as a 2+. Fact is, changing it to artificer armor makes no sense.


You seem very confused. I didn't say that Aegis is getting replaced by Artificer, I'm saying that the Artificer rule could be integrated into the Aegis rule... which is what Harry had been somewhat implying by saying that "Artificer is baseline". From a fluff standpoint it would just be correcting the statline to reflect the fact that the Grey Knight standard armor is built to the level of craftsmanship that other Marines only find in their rarest armor, unless you take issue with GW every time they update a codex and make a few changes in the stats? I sure hope not.

Do you understand now? :/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

IMNOTHERE said:


> This walker beasty is sounding more and more like a reintroduction of epic knights to me.


IMNOTHERE suggested searching for Adeptus Titanicus and Epic Knight paladins so I did.
Managed to find these 2 pictures.
This a hint at what the GK walker will be like? They are old Epic miniatures if you are wondering.


----------



## fynn

As for the points cost of a repressor, if they bring it in, then they probaly use the IA points cost of 50pts (as of the last IA2 update), seeing as it was droped to that fit with the 35pt rhino and 55pts chimera.


----------



## gen.ahab

Vhalyar said:


> You seem very confused. I didn't say that Aegis is getting replaced by Artificer, I'm saying that the Artificer rule could be integrated into the Aegis rule... which is what Harry had been somewhat implying by saying that "Artificer is baseline". From a fluff standpoint it would just be correcting the statline to reflect the fact that the Grey Knight standard armor is built to the level of craftsmanship that other Marines only find in their rarest armor, unless you take issue with GW every time they update a codex and make a few changes in the stats? I sure hope not.
> 
> Do you understand now? :/


That would mean I was right at the start; they still use Aegis armor but they upgraded the stat line.... So your correction was just poorly worded. Fine with that. The confusion was I am going at it from a fluff standpoint, artif does mean Aegis, and you were looking at it from a stat perspective. So saying they use artificer armor isn't exactly true but you can say they use their standard aegis armor with an upgraded stat line to give them a 2+ AS. See... Simple if you actually explain it properly.


----------



## Kettu

@Mad Cow.
The problem of the Knights is that they are just short of Warhound Titan in size. Maybe a head shorter.

I can't imagine they would put a Warmachine of that size in a codex.
Besides, the AdMech own all Titans, this includes Knights.

None the less, I would love to have a Plastic Knight kit.

---

@Bindi Baji.


> Would you rather have to wait 3 years for a new codex that comes with models or would you rather wait 18 months and get the models turning up bit by bit between 18 months and 3 years?


Sounds good and all but then it has been six years already, I doubt it takes three years to get the minis done and if this were the case then GW should have started already. 
But then, the Sister barely sell as is. If a codex was released without minis then I can't imagine it would sell enough to even warrant having them care enough to do much in the way of plastic kits, if any at all.


----------



## Shandathe

... could everyone please stop (pretending to be) thinking that the sales for the Sisters accurately reflect where they could/should be? GW's treatment has been utterly lousy. :angry:

The first Sisters codex came out mere months before the switch to 3rd, and we then got to wait, wait, and wait some more through every other army's update (well, TWO updates for Imperial Guard), three new races and *OMG!evenMoreMarines!* before we got.... 

Not a new 'dex so much as an updated one, with a single new tank, the reduction of special characters from 5 to 2, and a timesharing plan with the bloody Inquisition. Oh, and let's not forget the lack of new models that came with it. And of course, then 4th edition came along. :headbutt: 

Let's not forget that when they decided not to reprint the WH codex but instead put it on their site, it took MONTHS and they still failed to edit anything other than losing the Allies rule in some languages :wacko: Even the references to the other codices weren't edited to reflect reality. Would you perchance like to field an Armored Fist Squad? Or 0-1 Leman Russ tank? 

Thank the Emperor these by now 13 year old metals are pretty nice. Of course, they're unavailable in squad size now, making an army very far from affordable even if you wanted one with the 6 (or twice that, depending on how you look at it) year out-of-date codex.

If Sister sales are as bad as is implied (and for something that sells bad, they still somehow managed to completely run out 6 months ago without having a replacement ready. If Sisters sell poorly in a predictable way, what kind of planning is that?) the fault is purely GWs.

This goes for the others of the poor four too. I'm hoping the Grey Knights will be rescued with something decent soon. And while a pious servant of the Emperor shouldn't, I can sympathize a lot with the Dark Eldar and Necrons. Not enough to want them to get a codex first, but... I can sympathize, and will cheer when they get one.


----------



## GrizBe

I thought it interesting that the recent posted Chaos Daemons: Sagas of the Daemon Prince article posted on the GW website mentions quite clearly the Inquisition, The Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar....

Hints hiding in plain sight, or am I just reading too much into things?


----------



## fynn

it could be a case of hidieng hints in plain sight, they have been known to do it before. lets just hope its not wishful thinking on our part


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> I thought it interesting that the recent posted Chaos Daemons: Sagas of the Daemon Prince article posted on the GW website mentions quite clearly the Inquisition, The Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar....
> 
> Hints hiding in plain sight, or am I just reading too much into things?


When was this posted?


----------



## GrizBe

Friday 13th according to the main website.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Hints hiding in plain sight, or am I just reading too much into things?


GW have a habit of hiding things in plain sight, 
the problem with attempting to figure out what is actually a hint is that for every 2 things that turn out to be true, there will be 5 or so incorrect.

And going by something someone said last year I do wonder if GW purposely do this kind of thing now


----------



## GrizBe

Hence why I was wondering... GW are too damned confuzzling lately... but you'd think they'd not mention thing like =I= working with IG's for instance, if theyy were trying to drop that....

I'm probably thinking too much. lol


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> but you'd think they'd not mention thing like =I= working with IG's for instance


Ah, except the whole point of the =I= codex/expansion/brick/thing would be that it included inquisitors & their retinue who could commandeer any imperial force, the lack of allies bit sounds like it will only apply to the actual GK/SOB codexes themselves



GrizBe said:


> I'm probably thinking too much. lol


it's a very popular past time


----------



## hungryugolino

So according to your apocrypha, there will still be options for Inquisitors with guardsmen/space marines? And Grey Knights with Space marines?

That would be good.


----------



## Bindi Baji

hungryugolino said:


> So according to your apocrypha, there will still be options for Inquisitors with guardsmen/space marines? And Grey Knights with Space marines?
> 
> That would be good.


Oh yes, they don't want to get rid of allies as such, 
I think they just want to make inquisitors available to all imperial factions to reflect how the inquisition works in the fluff.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I would prefer it if they left inquisitors alone at the moment and when 6th ed is released include an entry for them in the rulebook as well as assassins that can be used by any imperium related force.

Much like how 3rd ed was before daemon and witch hunters were made.


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> Oh yes, they don't want to get rid of allies as such,
> I think they just want to make inquisitors available to all imperial factions to reflect how the inquisition works in the fluff.


Credit should be given when due: kudos to GW if they do that. It would be an absolute win-win, pleasing to the gamers of many factions and financially sound. I just hope this doesn't get stuck in the "next year" limbo.

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

Stickmonkey over on Warseer posted this in his thread in reponse to people speculating along the lines of GK's = Elite space marines.



Stickmonkey said:


> I'm going to chime in here. Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.


I think this may mean that GK's don't have a traditional 'marine' organisation... Which we kinda already knew... but also means i'm guessing we hopefully won't be seeing SM vehicle units for them like the preadator etc.


----------



## boreas

It's either that or the reverse: Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations _of the actual codex_: DH (italic is added by me). He might be saying that right now GKs are very different in structure and style from the regular Codex: SM but they could become closer. That would make too much sense for GW. Selling Razorbacks and Rhinos to all GK players would be a goldmine, not to mention all other rhino-chassis vehicle, landspeeders, bikes, assault bikes, etc... Just put a "GK sprue" in the box with other weapons and heads (à la BT or DA) and they've potentially double the sales with really producing new stuff... I, personally, wouldn't mind all that much with the basic GKs guy remains elite (ie no "basic" GKs with just a bolter, no scouts, etc). 

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

I'd hate to see them become 'just another Space Marine' chapter though, all be it an elite one. Thats the wrong way to go in my mind. Okay, so we've been told they're getting Razorbacks, which makes sense with GK's small elite and hardhitting teams theme.... but tanks other then Landraiders for them just feels kinda wrong. GK's are elite, not just a 'we've got better equipment then you' bunch of marines.


----------



## boreas

That would be the ideal, but i think Codex: GKs is a good test of the following: who has the ultimate control over development? If we get a very divergent SM codex (ie NFW/SB, Landraiders and Razorbacks but all the rest are "new" units), its the "gamers". If we get a minor divergent chapter (à la SW/BT/BA/DA, with the rhinos, Jump packs, Bikes, etc), it's the accountants. It's quite possible that we'll get an _In medio_ result with GKs as we know them but with some added SM stuff (Razobacks, Chaplains), but just enough to make them a bit more different than SW/BA.

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

A bit more from our favourite rumours guy:



Stickmonkey said:


> The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"
> 
> The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon
> 
> Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short


Seems I may be right about the organisation not being 'standard', but also.. we do know they're getting chaplins by some rumours, so interesting things are afoot.

Also, does that mean we'll be getting =I= stuff in with the GK's?


----------



## gen.ahab

Well of course their organization won't be standard codex, their existance is against the codex. But they have to put something in the codex. I wouldn't be supprised if we see preds and such. Even an elite army needs fire support or they will get shot to hell. Although I have been hearing things about a stormraven, or something like it, in the new dex. 

Didn't they say that C:BA was something of a test bed for C:GK? If so then maybe we will see some of the standard marine tanks and vehicles with a DH spin to them. 

Chapies make sense, as do libs to some extent.

I also wouldn't be supprised if we see some form of inquisition presence. Although I doubt we will get anything other than an inquisitor. Fluff doesn't mean unit stats.


----------



## GrizBe

The guy who said that c:BA was the testbed was the same guy who later turned around and said he'd made up his rumours.... but then some of the reliable guys have made hints saying the same.

Stormravens pretty much a gurentee given the fluff in the BA codex, and it appearing in the playtesting list, and thats one hell of a gunship.


Just one thing though, not exactly tabletop related but: Relic announce Dawn of War 2: Retribution.

Note in the video the =I= styled I in Retr=I=bution, and the release blurb saying about the betrayal... 

Now this has a march release day... coincidental tie in with the release of the new GK's?


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Now this has a march release day... coincidental tie in with the release of the new GK's?


the idea that GW and a video game company could manage to purposely release related items around the same time is................optimistic :laugh:


----------



## Azezel

It would be hugely disspiriting to see the GK reduced to yet another _Space Marines but black/Green/Red/Grey_. Indeed, it would remove the sole reason for their existing - that they are *not* just another Space Marine chapter...


Oh well, time will tell, I suppose.


Instinct tells me that if anything, the '=][=' in 'Retr=][=bution' indicates Deathwatch. There are orks in the video, but I didn't see any heretics or daemons.


----------



## Katie Drake

Azezel said:


> Instinct tells me that if anything, the '=][=' in 'Retr=][=bution' indicates Deathwatch. There are orks in the video, but I didn't see any heretics or daemons.


It _is_ possible. The Deathwatch are getting a little more attention now since Fantasy Flight's RPG _Deathwatch_ is supposed to be out this month.


----------



## GrizBe

Erm... there were bloodletters running about in the trailer video....


----------



## gen.ahab

Ok, people need to quit bitching about the GK being space marines because that's what they are. They will be different but they will probably use similar equipment. Fact is the stuff is effective and it isn't as though the imperium likes to use different tech. Their stuff will be outfited to deal with daemons and work with fluff.... But they will probably be using astartes weapons... Seeing as how they are astartes.

Edit: Ok.... That was a bit to much of a bitch fit for such a small thing but still, they are space marines.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

But they are something MORE than space marines. A lot of players will remember before 3rd ed profiles came out it cost 1200 points for a 5 man GK squad and 600 for a grand master. They are waaaaaay more powerful than standard marines, capable on taking on entire armies of chaos and daemons without taking a scratch. It would be such a shame for those with fond memories of the GK to see them reduced to just silver marines.


----------



## Katie Drake

Stephen_Newman said:


> But they are something MORE than space marines. A lot of players will remember before 3rd ed profiles came out it cost 1200 points for a 5 man GK squad and 600 for a grand master. They are waaaaaay more powerful than standard marines, capable on taking on entire armies of chaos and daemons without taking a scratch. It would be such a shame for those with fond memories of the GK to see them reduced to just silver marines.


They can't be too over-the-top powerful in the tabletop game though, or the number of models needed to field an army will be too small for GW to really make any money. I'd imagine an average Grey Knight army will have more models than your typical Deathwing one.


----------



## gen.ahab

Katie is right, GW will make no money off such a small army. I would imagine that the average GK would be around 45 points..... from what I hear.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I would hope Retribution would include the Inquisition in some way, I would love to see Sisters arriving to purge the sector but I doubt that will happen. Im sure allot of people would cry blood if IG wasnt the new playable race.

I think it sucks they only add one new race with each expansion, that means it could take up to 10 years before every race is in the game and thats just retarded.


----------



## gen.ahab

MadCowCrazy said:


> I would hope Retribution would include the Inquisition in some way, I would love to see Sisters arriving to purge the sector but I doubt that will happen. Im sure allot of people would cry blood if IG wasnt the new playable race.
> 
> I think it sucks they only add one new race with each expansion, that means it could take up to 10 years before every race is in the game and thats just retarded.


Not really. You already have all the space marines, orks, chaos daemons, chaos space marines, eldar, inquisition, and tyranids. The only ones left are sisters(maybe), DK(maybe), and IG.... I think.

EDIT: oh and tau.


----------



## Kettu

Imperial Guard, Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar and Sisters of Battle.

That's still four years and considering the hack-job that was Soulstorm I don't have high hopes we'll ever really see Sisters in a game again and I doubt DE and Necrons also.

---

@Mad Cow;

I know you are not keeping track of rumours to the Sisters and Grey Knights in the three 40K rpg systems but something interesting I found on FFG's forum. 

To summarise the related parts:



> ... We asked if Grey Knights would be playable with Daemon Hunter and if so would they be compatible with Deathwatch. He told a funny story about how Grey Knights were in an odd spot, the theme wise went very well with Dark Heresy but were space marines and needed to feel that way. When he took over Dark Heresy there was a discussion about Grey Knights and he basically called dibs because he loves them so much. He never said "yes they are playable" but he talked about the concept as if that were the only way they would be presented.
> 
> ... The Sisters of Battle are the chamber militant for the Ecclesiarchy and NOT the Ordo Hereticus. Some of these might be a no-brainer for you guys but it was a huge "OH" moment for me.
> 
> ... Maybe I misquoted Mack on this one, but I got this part from a discussion I over heard between a fan and Mack and Ross. Basically the Codex is wrong, Inquisitors Handbook quotes that and now it's getting fixed. Maybe GW changed it or maybe it's just a long running mistake by the company that had Dark Heresy before them.


This relates to two books that are coming later this year, Daemon Hunter and Blood of Martyrs.
[EDIT] Sorry, Daemon Hunter is listed as spring 2011. BoM is fall this year though.

So, coming soon we'll have lots of GK related information that may/may not tie-in to their rumoured codex and, by the looks of things, the fluff direction GW is taking the Sisters.

However, though the first few books were written by GW, these later ones are not and so I don't know how readily they'll compliment each other.

wow, post count 999. I remember when this thread was but a child at little more then seventy posts long when I found it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So will Blood of Martyrs be about sisters? Title sounds about right since sisters seems to be the stubborn punching bag for pretty much everyone. Not many sisters victories have been written whilst them getting their asses kicked is common occurrence it seems...


----------



## Azezel

I'm currently playing a Sororitas in a Dark Heresy game and I'm not really a fan of the way the Inquisitor's Handbook did things. I've got no Power Armour, no Godwyn De'az Boltgun (In fact, they list the Godwyn De'az as a pistol, and not a very good one!) and there's only one worthwhile act of faith in the whole book, and it's not very good.

Back on topic - I doubt that GW and FFG have much of a clue what one another are doing, let alone have the power to match their schedules.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Guess we will never see all the races in DoW2....

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-18-thq-talks-dawn-of-war-iii-ufc-3

Seems Retribution might be the last expansion for DoW2 since DoW3 will come about 2 years after this...


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> Guess we will never see all the races in DoW2....
> 
> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-18-thq-talks-dawn-of-war-iii-ufc-3
> 
> Seems Retribution might be the last expansion for DoW2 since DoW3 will come about 2 years after this...


Waaaaay too far away for the release of DoW3, for all I know the world might end in 2012, so I'm not holding my breath for this.


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems Retribution might be the last expansion for DoW2 since DoW3 will come about 2 years after this...


Or they'll hand over all the sequal work to another company to do.
I mean, I can't think of anything that'll go wrong with that. :sarcastichand:



Azezel said:


> I'm currently playing a Sororitas in a Dark Heresy game and I'm not really a fan of the way the Inquisitor's Handbook did things. I've got no Power Armour, no Godwyn De'az Boltgun (In fact, they list the Godwyn De'az as a pistol, and not a very good one!) and there's only one worthwhile act of faith in the whole book, and it's not very good.


Don't forget you'll lose those abilities after a few games from the inevitable compiled corruption points. 



> Back on topic - I doubt that GW and FFG have much of a clue what one another are doing, let alone have the power to match their schedules.


Well anyway, here's to hope.:drinks:



MadCowCrazy said:


> So will Blood of Martyrs be about sisters? Title sounds about right since sisters seems to be the stubborn punching bag for pretty much everyone. Not many sisters victories have been written whilst them getting their asses kicked is common occurrence it seems...


Blood of Martyrs is about the Ecclesiarchy so I would assume Sisters as well.
Also, the title is an old quote attributed to the Catholic Church: “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church,”
None the less, with an endless supply of more inspiring quotes they could've used or, if this is about the Ecclesiarchy, simply called it that, Ecclesiarchy. It doesn't really help sell any image sans religious nutjobs that are too stupid to live.

However, there is always hope this will turn around.
So let’s have another drink to that.:alcoholic:


----------



## mahavira

My understanding had always been that GW was extremely controlling when it comes to other companies using their IP, so while it's possible they can't really coordinate with other companies (release dates being the hardest thing for any game company to stick to) I doubt they are unaware of anything being said in the fluff portion of the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch books. I'm wondering if the rumor from the FFG pages was either an error or miscommunication: the SoB are the chamber militant of the ecclesiarchy, but are also the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus - "Innocence Proves Nothing", a very recent Black Library book had Battle Sisters standing guard in the Ordo Hereticus portion of an Inquisition HQ, not to mention the WH codex of course. If the inquisition connection is being retconned out (as opposed to just being de-emphasized) one wonders what the Ordo Hereticus would use for its chamber militant. Some new variant marine chapter? Not like we don't have enough of those...


----------



## hungryugolino

The quote is actually "the Blood of martyrs is the seed of the Imperium."


----------



## Kettu

@mahavira;

Sorry, should have made it clear that the third quote


> ... Maybe I misquoted Mack on this one, but I got this part from a discussion I over heard between a fan and Mack and Ross. Basically the Codex is wrong, Inquisitors Handbook quotes that and now it's getting fixed. Maybe GW changed it or maybe it's just a long running mistake by the company that had Dark Heresy before them.


Was written after two people mentioned that Sisters were the CM of the Hereticus.
So, if this is being changed because GW has told them of the plot change then this may be good news.

@hungryugolino;

Sorry, I left out Catholic in my previous post, I have fixed it now.
But yes, the Imperium has adopted the quote as their own.


----------



## GrizBe

Stickmonkey just posted this GK force line-up and info on his warseer thread:



Stickmonkey said:


> Inquisitor lord
> Inquisitor
> Chapter master
> Chapter deacon
> Chaplain
> Apothacary
> Master of the library
> Veteran gk
> Super elite retinue gk
> Gk greater daemon specialists
> Pagk
> Tagk
> Fast attack gk
> Support gk
> Gk support vehicles
> Gk insertion vehicles
> Assassins
> Stormtroopers
> Gk scouters
> Gk dreads
> 
> You really believe they cannot build a fully fleshed out army from just this list, with unique and distinct choices? No this is not rumor, but just off the top of my head it's pretty easy to see where they could go.
> 
> However, this thread is leaning heavily towards wl and not rumor discussion now. Get back on track soon or they will close it.
> 
> So here's my latest bit:
> 
> Chaos icons work to oppose Gk units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of Gk to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.


Okay, so the list may be unclear as to if the list rumour or truth or just something Stickmonkey's done to give people an idea of what could be seen... but if its anything like that in reality, I'm happy!

Also... that sounds interesting about the icons blocking GK teleporting... must mean GK teleporting is a pretty powerful and abusable ability to have to hinder it like that.


----------



## boreas

Well, I could see some GKs having a rule where they can attack after DS-ing. Not being able to DS within assault range of a chaos icon would balance it out...

Phil


----------



## gen.ahab

heroic intervention I think.


----------



## rodmillard

boreas said:


> Well, I could see some GKs having a rule where they can attack after DS-ing. Not being able to DS within assault range of a chaos icon would balance it out...
> 
> Phil


Good point - also consider that GK might have a similar ability to block summoned daemons within range, so this balances out that ability.


----------



## GrizBe

Defiantely makes sense especially if GK's can assault after teleporting...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> Stickmonkey just posted this GK force line-up and info on his warseer thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so the list may be unclear as to if the list rumour or truth or just something Stickmonkey's done to give people an idea of what could be seen... but if its anything like that in reality, I'm happy!
> 
> Also... that sounds interesting about the icons blocking GK teleporting... must mean GK teleporting is a pretty powerful and abusable ability to have to hinder it like that.


I think he is just mentioning the things GW could base the codex around since some people say GK have too few units to get their own codex (Im of this opinion as well since all Ive seen are TAGK, PAGK and Dread and a Land raider, they would have to add allot of cool new toys ).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

lol, I was just banned from warseer until the 28th. So if there are any more rumours posted there please post them here so I can put them in my threads 

If you are wondering why its because I "posted offensive pictures" in a reply to Sisters of Battle falling too Slaneesh...

Im sure they have removed the picture link so if you still want to see it just go to http://www.kontraband.com/ and search for WTF WARRIOR, I dont think its offensive at all but the Warseer admins do.
The picture has been shown here where I live in a magazine with a PG13 rating so I guess warseer has allot of younger posters to take offense, its their right to do so so until my ban is lifted please send me all GK, DE and SoB related stuff they post


----------



## GrizBe

Wow they over-react... lol. Could have just deleted the image and given a warning.

If i spot anything there I'll be sure to add it.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think he is just mentioning the things GW could base the codex around since some people say GK have too few units to get their own codex


indeed, I imagine there are lots of people whining and panicking 


> Wot r GW finking?, skrew them if they is gunna hav a codecks wiv 2 or 3 fings innit, dey is alwayz skrewin us deamon unterz fans, iz so unfair





GrizBe said:


> Wow they over-react... lol.


they do have a tendancy to over-react and some of the mods over there could do with a sense of humour


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Okay, so the list may be unclear as to if the list rumour or truth or just something Stickmonkey's done to give people an idea of what could be seen... but if its anything like that in reality, I'm happy!


Nah, it's perfectly clear what it is. From that very same post you quoted:


Stickmonkey said:


> No this is not rumor


And still people on Warseer assumed that it was a definitive list and started screaming. I'm not surprised though, when I posted my fan-made codex entries with a big preface saying they were fake... people still want ahead and reposted them on various sites as rumors. Reading comprehension failure!


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> lol, I was just banned from warseer until the 28th. So if there are any more rumours posted there please post them here so I can put them in my threads
> 
> If you are wondering why its because I "posted offensive pictures" in a reply to Sisters of Battle falling too Slaneesh...
> 
> Im sure they have removed the picture link so if you still want to see it just go to http://www.kontraband.com/ and search for WTF WARRIOR, I dont think its offensive at all but the Warseer admins do.
> The picture has been shown here where I live in a magazine with a PG13 rating so I guess warseer has allot of younger posters to take offense, its their right to do so so until my ban is lifted please send me all GK, DE and SoB related stuff they post


I think the "thing" hangin' between her legs was the "offensive" part :laugh:. Anyways, seriously I don't really understand the Stickmonkey post. Anyone care to enlighten me? Thanks in advance guys.k:


----------



## GrizBe

@Donfer: Pretty much people on Warseer were complaining tha they couldn't see how GW could bulk out the GK's to warrent giving them a codex of their own. Stickmonkey's post was showing how it could be easily done while still keeping to the fluff of GK's.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So any Games Day US news? Anyone there atm?


----------



## Shandathe

Well, it's still early over there, so we should be understanding and patient.

For now.


----------



## Vhalyar

Don't get your hopes up for anything Grey Knight related, or even Dark Eldar information. The US Games Days have been routinely terrible recently for news and excitement.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Don't get your hopes up for anything Grey Knight related, or even Dark Eldar information. The US Games Days have been routinely terrible recently for news and excitement.


yeah, posted in the DE thread earlier that I got a text from a friend there and she didn't see anything new at all outside of some forgeworld bits


----------



## Khorothis

Vhalyar said:


> Don't get your hopes up for anything Grey Knight related, or even Dark Eldar information. The US Games Days have been routinely terrible recently for news and excitement.


I find your lack of faith disturbing. Do not want! I swear!


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Inquisitor Hector Rex...I think thats his name, was in the space marine case along with a GK dread.

Some speculation that Badab War is next from Forge World, did the grey knights take part in that?

I assume so as it was marines fighting each other and calling each other heretics.


----------



## Vhalyar

Khorothis said:


> I find your lack of faith disturbing. Do not want! I swear!


Well you're right, GW showed... one new piece of Dark Eldar artwork by Blanche today! Exciting! News! Remember when cool things were announced at Games Days?



Purge the Heretic said:


> Some speculation that Badab War is next from Forge World, did the grey knights take part in that?
> 
> I assume so as it was marines fighting each other and calling each other heretics.


IA9 and 10 are about the Badab War, IA11 is Space Wolf, Eldar, Cadians and Elysians. And no, the Grey Knights had nothing to do with the Badab War, heretic does not equal daemonic, which is what they deal with.


----------



## Shandathe

English Games Day is the only one that matters nowadays I think, at least in terms of new things being spotted... September 26 this year, which MIGHT still work out for a November release.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Could it probably work as a december release. I know it is later than planned but could it happen?


----------



## rodmillard

According to MajorWesJansen on Warseer, the guy at the FW seminar said that they *may* be releasing something for sisters and/or inquisition later this year (presumably as a stand alone release, since I don't see it fitting into the Badab campaign).

Nice to see my girls getting some forge world love, even if they keep slipping down the priority list for GW.


----------



## Khorothis

Vhalyar said:


> Well you're right, GW showed... one new piece of Dark Eldar artwork by Blanche today! Exciting! News! Remember when cool things were announced at Games Days?


I need a paper hanky. ;_;

:hang1:


----------



## Azezel

Stephen_Newman said:


> Could it probably work as a december release. I know it is later than planned but could it happen?


Unlikely. GW has never done a December release. They like to put out boxsets and big kits in December so little Timmy knows what he wants for christmas.


----------



## Shandathe

rodmillard said:


> Nice to see my girls getting some forge world love, even if they keep slipping down the priority list for GW.


Agreed, and hey, with the current state of model availability it's not like the army isn't hideously expensive ANYWAY :grin:


----------



## Azezel

Any specifics? I'm struggling to think what Forgeworld might do for the SoB that they haven't already done...


----------



## equitypetey

Azezel said:


> Unlikely. GW has never done a December release. They like to put out boxsets and big kits in December so little Timmy knows what he wants for christmas.


just as a thought do we think we might see the stormraven then or is that just wishful thinking


----------



## GrizBe

The Stormraven at x-mas makes sounds sales sense.... hence knowing GW, it probably won't happen


----------



## Shandathe

Uhrr, the Stormraven isn't even in the main Marine codex... That means it's only got a small target audience at the moment, and it'll be a pretty expensive model regardless. Sound sales sense suggests GW come up with something in the 40 - 100 pound/euro range, preferably standalone, that they can sell to people that aren't players of YetMoreSpaceMarines too.


... and quite frankly, chances are it'll be a Fantasy product this year. Or possibly something to boost LoTR.


----------



## Azezel

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Stormraven and/or Thunderwolves in December.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive been looking through videos from Games Day US and not much can be said about it tbh.

GK, at 1:15 you get to see the FW Inquisitor and Dread, the same old stuff you have been able to buy for years.





At 1:20 you get to see some greens of old models and maybe some new, NOTHING for GK afaik.





There are some I dont recognize, 2 ratling snipers in the back atleast. The Jetbike is the Raven Wing commanders one.

There seems to be allot of news over at warseer, as I am banned I am unable to read it other than get it from links on other forums.

by MajorWesJanson

Badab book 1 is Sep 27 I think the preorder said, book 2 will be Nov or Dec.

Forgeworld Inquisition/Sisters maybe late next year

Forgeworld Brass Etch- Salamanders, Flesh Tearers I remember.

Negative response to a female guard regiment, but maybe heads/conversions.

More Reaver Weapons planned when schedule permits, likely after the Eldar titan is done. Volcano Cannon at the top of the list. 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4929970&postcount=121

Could someone copypaste whats in this thread and send it to me or just paste it here?

2 Interesting things Ive read so far, FW are working on some necrons and maybe some Inquisition/Sisters of battle late next year.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2 Interesting things Ive read so far, FW are working on some necrons and maybe some Inquisition/Sisters of battle late next year.


just the one necron model according to my friend who went and it's not codex related(apparently the FW bloke was at great pains to state that despite no one having asked), it will be on show at GD UK.

Also the forgeworld SOB haven't even been started yet but sound likely to be IA related although she didn't get a definate answer on that and she was of the opinion that was what was being hinted at.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> Also the forgeworld SOB haven't even been started yet but sound likely to be IA related although she didn't get a definate answer on that and she was of the opinion that was what was being hinted at.


If we are to see a SoB codex release sometime late next year (personal guess) I would not be surprised if they havent started yet. From what was stated they may or may not release something late next year, that they even mentioned SoB is good enough for me since even that is more than GW has done for 5years.


Some Games Day US vids I found...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nothing to see here


----------



## GrizBe

Thats a cool costume... especially the chainsword.


----------



## VanitusMalus

I don't know if anyone commented but that poster of the GKs is old it's from the IA that introduced the Death Korps of Krieg. So Games Day didn't have any new minis on display?


----------



## Vhalyar

VanitusMalus said:


> I don't know if anyone commented but that poster of the GKs is old it's from the IA that introduced the Death Korps of Krieg. So Games Day didn't have any new minis on display?


The only new models shown were for Forge World stuff like the Red Scorpions and Astral Claws, along with some extra customization bits. Terribly disappointing, as expected.


----------



## gen.ahab

There comes a point at which the time you spend upon a costume becomes scary.... I believe she hit that point some time before she finished.

Although the ork deserves a fucking medal.


----------



## Khargoth

The costume maker is Finnlock on Work In Progress, who built it for his lovely girlfriend (I bet all the taken lads here wished their girls were that into your hobby!). The project took about eight months according to him (and this was an upgrade to a previous SoB costume!). The project log is here


----------



## DonFer

Vhalyar said:


> [.....] *Terribly disappointing, as expected*.


I think your last phrase it's kind of an Oxymorron :grin:

@GrizBe: Sorry I didn't have the time to thank you for your explanation 'bout the GK list published in another site. Thanks again!

Now back to topic, I really expected some news at Games Day, I mean it's actually common sense to show new stuff to fans to lighten up some future buying spree. Seems like GW is developing some über-secret project, that no one has to know about. I mean perhaps the playtesters, are testing stuff blindfolded, and anyone involved in the codex, have their eyes cut out after they finished. Heck maybe they hired Maggie Q to use some poor bastards in the development stage and then blow them off so they don't spread the rumors.. :crazy:. 

Oh well, sorry my mind was flying, but seriously no news of new stuff is really dissapointing.


----------



## Bindi Baji

DonFer said:


> Now back to topic, I really expected some news at Games Day


it's a rarity to get *any news at all* at any games day with the exception of games day uk,
even then there isn't a lot


----------



## Azezel

DonFer said:


> I think your last phrase it's kind of an Oxymorron :grin:


I was just about to say that...

Anyhoo - GW, being a British outfit, are far more likely to save any big reveal for the British Games Day. Patience.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think they should run both at the same day, then they could release info at both events.
I feel it would kinda suck if I would have paid a few thousands to go to the US event thinking it was the bigger and get no news or info (other than FW) only to find out they revealed everything at the UK one.

Im sure some Europeans went there because they were working in September or couldnt make it to the UK one for some reason. Such a let down really.

They should simple merge the US one with gencon or games con or whatever the huge american event is called.
GW are on a crash course with their fans, Id hate to see GW fail but Im sure noone will be surprised when they do...


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I think they should run both at the same day, then they could release info at both events.


well yes, but it would be a logistical nightmare running two at the same time given the members of the design team, artists & BL writers who like to attend both


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> well yes, but it would be a logistical nightmare running two at the same time given the members of the design team, artists & BL writers who like to attend both


Quite right... I do think, though, that MCC is right: going to a Games Day is a big deal for many gamers and should be properly rewarded with some real news. But then again, I fing that the whole "mystery" surrounding GW's upcoming stuff is a bit silly. I'm a big... neh, huge fan of previews. The movie industry and the Computer gaming industry have adopted this as a business model, so I guess it's not all bad...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> Quite right... I do think, though, that MCC is right: going to a Games Day is a big deal for many gamers and should be properly rewarded with some real news. But then again, I fing that the whole "mystery" surrounding GW's upcoming stuff is a bit silly. I'm a big... neh, huge fan of previews. The movie industry and the Computer gaming industry have adopted this as a business model, so I guess it's not all bad...
> 
> Phil


So true, we are seeing previews of Dark Millenium online, Spheez Mahreene and Retr=][=bution now! What will GW come out with in 1 year? 6months? November?

Sure I can understand a new codex or rulebook being announced at large events but new models and other addons should be announced atleast 6months in advance.

Then again this is not the movie, cinema or computer games industry so maybe things work differently? Like the other miniature companies, they dont announce things ahead of time either............ wait what?....:crazy:


----------



## Azezel

Actually, I can see a 'playablwe demo' concept working for GW.

Once they playtesters are happy with one unit from an upcoming codex - release it online - a one-page .pdf. Stir up some interest, let people know the direction the new 'dex is going. Let people plan purchases etc. It could work...


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Hmmm .... now I worked in the Intelligence community of the USAF and even we had leaks. GW is doing a fantastic job of keeping things hush hush. Too well, in fact. They really should leak some shit once in awhile to get a little excitement started, fuck, even go ahead and start false rumors for God's sake.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

That would be hilarious, especially if they are stupid:

Guy 1: Quickly come here GW are hinting the release of an army of fishmen!

Guy 2: Wow! Well since it came from GW it must be true!!


Hilarity ensues


----------



## Vhalyar

Harry's going on some more about the new non-Dread exo-suit in the codex. The more he talks about it, the more curious I am.


----------



## GrizBe

Wheres that? All I could see on warseer was him 'confirming' it again.

Have to say I'm really damn curious as to if its true or not too...


----------



## hungryugolino

The exo-suit sounds really, really stupid. 

The Imperium already has oversized power armour. They call it Tactical dreadnaught or terminator armour.

And of all factions, why mess with the Grey Knights like that? Just give them librarian dreads and upgraded Terminator armour and call it a day!


----------



## GrizBe

The point of it is that fluff wise, ALL Grey Knights want to die in battle protecting the imperium and be burried beside their brothers in the fortress monestary. They don't want to be entomed forever in dreadnaught armour...

Hence, an Exo Suit would fill that gap of having a dreadnaughts power and heavy weaponry, while fulfilling the Grey Knights want of not wanting to become dreadnaughts. Its fluffy for them.

You have to remember that GK's are the elite of the elite. An exo suit would give them the extra punch for their small unit numbers while not having to use an ancient dreadnaught.


----------



## fynn

where do you get the no dreadnoughts in fluff from, as i dont ever recall seeing it. and i know theres no mention of it in the BL book "Grey Knights" (finerly got to read it at last)

edit, ive read the bit your on about in the codex, but read the fluff entry next to the dreadnought entry in the army section.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hungryugolino said:


> The exo-suit sounds really, really stupid.
> 
> The Imperium already has oversized power armour. They call it Tactical dreadnaught or terminator armour.
> 
> And of all factions, why mess with the Grey Knights like that? Just give them librarian dreads and upgraded Terminator armour and call it a day!


They need some new kits to sell, some twist that makes people want to play GKs. The easiest way to do this is to give them something no other race or chapter has, making just another SM chapter doesnt sell as good as making another SM chapter with some cool new toys does.



Many people get the GK dont like Dreads part wrong, sure they want to die and be buried on Titan but there is also a need for dreads. I heard some story about how some GK dude mortally wounded contemplated over it for 3 days before he decided to be entombed in a dread.
GKs have dreads, deal with it rather than whine that they should not have dreads because its in the fluff... they have dreads and the fluff says they do too even if they prefer to die rather than dreadhood.


----------



## GrizBe

I didn't say there are no GK dreads, just that a GK does not want to become one.

Normal SM's want to live and fight on, GK's, fluffwise would rather be laid to rest knowing they've done a good job.

But as said, an Exo suit fills the gap between the need for dreads and not wanting to become one.


----------



## fynn

but dreads are not agaisnt the fluff, as on rare, but not unheard of occasions a mortaly wounded GK will be intered in a dread to fight on


----------



## boreas

It's funny how, on one side, we've got "Oh no, please make GKs different so they won't be Grey Marines" and on the other we've got "Why should they be so different?"

In the middle, you've got the people like me saying "I don't give a poop, just give us some previews, already!".

Phil


----------



## rodmillard

GrizBe said:


> I didn't say there are no GK dreads, just that a GK does not want to become one.
> 
> Normal SM's want to live and fight on, GK's, fluffwise would rather be laid to rest knowing they've done a good job.
> 
> But as said, an Exo suit fills the gap between the need for dreads and not wanting to become one.


So keep dreads rare (as an elite choice) and have the exo-suits equipped for fire support (as a Heavy Support Squadron). Given the GKs' limited manpower, I think a squadron of 1-3 exo suits each carrying 2 heavy weapons is a much better use of resources than a conventional devastator squad clone.

By all means end the ridiculous situation ATM where dreadnoughts are the GKs only viable heavy weapon platform, but don't retcon them out of existence. As I have said many times in this (and other) threads - if _you_ don't thinkl they're fluffy _you_ don't have to use them, but leave the option in the codex for those of us who do...


----------



## Necrosis

You know we shouldn't listen to everything Harry says. I mean let's think for ourselves. To be honesty I think Harry source or sources have been compromised. I'm just saying don't get your hopes up to high and believe everything he tells you, like Exo-suits.


----------



## Vhalyar

Looks like I missed most of the debate 
Rodmillard said it best: Grey Knights have Dreadnoughts, only in very small numbers. If they need Dreadnought-like mobile firepower, exo-suit make perfect sense.

Anyway, Harry added a few more details about the release date:



Harry said:


> Not so much ... because they are not next.
> Wouldn't want to divert attention from the DE ... not after such a long wait. Not after so much time and attention.
> 
> Beyond saying I am pretty sure Grey Knights are first thing next year for 40K and released in January.
> 
> I know that conflicts with Stickmonkey's first post and he may well be correct when he suggests March.
> I had them down for March for a while but I am now leaning heavily towards January.


Followed by BramGaunt


BramGaunt said:


> I heard the same thing now multiple times, I would go with january.


Edit:


Necrosis said:


> You know we shouldn't listen to everything Harry says. I mean let's think for ourselves. To be honesty I think Harry source or sources have been compromised. I'm just saying don't get your hopes up to high and believe everything he tells you, like Exo-suits.


And you say that because you have your own source that you believe is more reliable than Harry, or because of a personal opinion?


----------



## GrizBe

@Rod: I'd agree with that... I never said GK's couldn't have dreads, just they aren't really 'fluffy' for them in my mind. but hell, saying that, I'd buy a GK dread if it came out.


Hmm.. and I hope Harry is right about GK's in Jan.


----------



## Necrosis

Vhalyar said:


> And you say that because you have your own source that you believe is more reliable than Harry, or because of a personal opinion?


Cause I choose to think for myself (instead of blindly believing a man) and I have gathered evidence that any other player can gather that points to the fact that Dark Eldar aren't getting redone.

1.) At the start of the year, every army (including the dark eldar) got a price increase expect for the Inquisition.

2.) GW also adopted a new policy at the start of this year or the end of last year were they were going to crack down on rumors and release false information.

3.) Several of the Inquisition Box sets have been taken down. While all the Dark Eldar stuff remains available from the GW site.

4.) Independent stores catalogs (for summer/fall) no longer lists Witch Hunters or Daemon Hunters at all. Meaning stores can no longer order that stuff. Yet the Dark Eldar still remains.

I'm just saying, do a bit of your own research and don't blindly believe other people. I'm not saying he is wrong I'm just saying it's possible that he is wrong.


----------



## Logyn

Necrosis said:


> Cause I choose to think for myself (instead of blindly believing a man) and I have gathered evidence that any other player can gather that points to the fact that Dark Eldar aren't getting redone.
> 
> 1.) At the start of the year, every army (including the dark eldar) got a price increase expect for the Inquisition.
> 
> 2.) GW also adopted a new policy at the start of this year or the end of last year were they were going to crack down on rumors and release false information.
> 
> 3.) Several of the Inquisition Box sets have been taken down. While all the Dark Eldar stuff remains available from the GW site.
> 
> 4.) Independent stores catalogs (for summer/fall) no longer lists Witch Hunters or Daemon Hunters at all. Meaning stores can no longer order that stuff. Yet the Dark Eldar still remains.
> 
> I'm just saying, do a bit of your own research and don't blindly believe other people. I'm not saying he is wrong I'm just saying it's possible that he is wrong.


I'm not aware GW ever adopted a policy of releasing false information. All you point out here are that DE still have models available while the =][= don't. And that's actually incorrect, as you can still direct order everything but the box sets of troops, though why they've decided to do that and release a PDF of the outdated rules is beyond my ability to understand, though it's pretty clear that those codexes will not be the next to be released...

The "rumor" that DE are the next army out does not come solely from Harry, nor from any other single source. GW has been working on them for a while now, they have said as much, and a number of reliable sources are 100% sure that DE will be the next codex to drop and that it will do so in November. We even know that it was written by Phil Kelly. You don't have to believe it, but I can pretty much guarantee you that come GD-UK, you'll have to accept that the Emo-Elves are back.

And the reason people pay so much attention to the Pie-man is because he's very reliable and has an excellent track record. He's the kind of source you would use in doing your own research.


----------



## Necrosis

Logyn said:


> I'm not aware GW ever adopted a policy of releasing false information. All you point out here are that DE still have models available while the =][= don't. And that's actually incorrect, as you can still direct order everything but the box sets of troops, though why they've decided to do that and release a PDF of the outdated rules is beyond my ability to understand, though it's pretty clear that those codexes will not be the next to be released...
> 
> The "rumor" that DE are the next army out does not come solely from Harry, nor from any other single source. GW has been working on them for a while now, they have said as much, and a number of reliable sources are 100% sure that DE will be the next codex to drop and that it will do so in November. We even know that it was written by Phil Kelly. You don't have to believe it, but I can pretty much guarantee you that come GD-UK, you'll have to accept that the Emo-Elves are back.
> 
> And the reason people pay so much attention to the Pie-man is because he's very reliable and has an excellent track record. He's the kind of source you would use in doing your own research.


1.) You seem have merged my 3rd and 4th point together in order to make an argument. These points are separate for a reason. One of them applies to direct ordering from GW while another one applies for Independent stores ordering them. It may not seem that their is a difference but there is. Also remember about the start of this year or around the end of the year where every GW employee had a T-shirt that said "Everything you have been told is a lie." Many people choose to ignore those shirts but I actually when around and asked. That is when GW adopted that new policy.

2.) If you got a million people to predict what the next 12 codex coming out where at least several of them (if not more) would predict it right due to probability. Just cause he was right in the past doesn't mean he will be right again. I'm not going to believe that dark eldar are coming out until I get some hard proof. As for those other sources all they are doing is agreeing with him. I mean Harry has refused to say how he even gets his information. He doesn't say if it's a source or if he gathers information. Also no one is every 100% sure. For all we know tomorrow a meteor might hit GW Headquarters and cause the company to crash.

Now you can stay here and keep arguing with me saying that "Harry is right cause Harry and his Friends were right before." Or you can accept that fact that someone people like me will always have doubts instead of blindly following a group of people cause they were right before.


----------



## gen.ahab

No one is blindly following anyone. There is a reason we call them rumours.


----------



## HighHubris

I blindly follow lemmings hasn't steered me wrong yet.


----------



## DonFer

gen.ahab said:


> No one is blindly following anyone. There is a reason we call them rumours.


Amen, Brother. However I blindly follow Heresy On-Line for everything WH 40K...:wink:


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I blindly stumbled into this thread ... what the hell is going on here? Harry said the way things were going to play out ... Ray Charles can see that.


----------



## Bindi Baji

HighHubris said:


> I blindly follow lemmings hasn't steered me wrong yet.


I tried that once, 
of course i'm four feet shorter these days so I wouldn't recommend it


----------



## HOBO

There sure is a hell of a lot of 'wafflling' on about nothing in this Thread, a third of its content could be deleted..you know, to actual Rumour Discussion:angry:


----------



## boreas

Well, if GW actually had some rumors to give us... But since they're hardminded on that stupid lockdown, we might as well enjoy ourselves :grin:

Phil


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Cause we got nothing else better to do.


----------



## Azezel

MadCow is a mod and if he wants this thread on a tighter reign he has only to snap his fingers. Until then, well, all the important stuff is sumarised at the beginning so it's not like anyone has to trawl the whole thread if they don't want to.


----------



## Bindi Baji

HOBO said:


> There sure is "snip" nothing in "snip", a third of its content could be "snip" :angry:


There aren't exactly a lot of rumours at the moment full stop, are there?.

We have a fairly good natured thread here with rumours when they appear, discussion and a serious lack of bickering (most of the time).

What's more as has been pointed out up there above this post any decent rumours are added to opening summaries by signor mad cow.

Technically by going on about deleting posts you have derailed the thread further then normal of which I am now guilty as I type this


----------



## HOBO

Hey by all means 'knock yourselves out' cluttering this thread up with pointless banter if you want..I thought that was what "general 40K was for really.

I'm also not knocking MadCowCrazy either, so don't go there.


----------



## hungryugolino

> Technically by going on about deleting posts you have derailed the thread further then normal of which I am now guilty as I type this


There is no such thing as innocence....


----------



## GrizBe

Well to get back on track with some rumours... the new models will come in scented coloured plastic to appeal to girls and hungry people. 

Mmm.. bacon marines....


Oh... BTW Mad Cow, The images you've added to the first post, Its an old poster of Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex. it was a double sided one with a Reaver Titan on the other side. Its been out for over a year with the Seige Of Vraks books.


----------



## Tuatara

If they're marines, wouldn't it be like Lobster Tail flavoured? Or Hallibut scented?

Actually, being Grey Knights, they'll be King Crab.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Innocence Proves NOTHING!

When I first became a mod I was thinking about reducing this thread to about 10pages worth but that was voted against. I do have the power to delete posts and such in this thread but I have decided never to do that, I will however edit stuff if I deem it unworthy 
So far I have only edit one post in this thread and that was when those fake rumours resurfaced again.

The general goal for this thread is that its a meeting point for people interested in GK, SoB or the Inquisition in general.
The general goal for me with this thread is to gather rumours and discuss them and I think the thread has done very well on this part.

No matter what you do there will always be off topic, wishlisting, bickering and so forth.
If things get out of hand and people start a real flame war I will of course step in and simply delete those posts but so far with over a thousand posts I have not needed to do this.

There has been some heated arguments etc but thats just how things work on forums, the only thing you can be sure of is that people agree to disagree and this is a good thing in my opinion because it opens up discussion. We need our Naysayers so to speak 

As with any forum thread thing will go alittle bit offtopic from time to time, this is to be expected, especially in a rumours thread because new rumours dont surface every single day. So in times of drought people go a little bit offtopic but thats ok, it keeps the thread alive.

Once GK are out this thread will be moved to the rumours summary thread and anyone who wants to read the entire thing can do so and see how the rumours developed over a years time. Its sad I lost the first rumours section but it wont happen again because I now backup everything on my own computer.

All in all I think its ok for you guys to post anything you like as long as its somewhat related to upcoming armies. There are some very simple rules that I dont enforce but feel should be common sense. Like asking for Eldar wishlisting, just coming here to say we suck and things of that nature. This thread should be about GK, SoB and =][=, but if some DE talk slips into this thread or the other gets a bit of GK love I dont mind it.

I dont believe in the policy of say Warseer where they close the rumours threads as soon as there is a rumours drought and the thread goes a little bit off topic, it happens, live with it. People posting is just evidence that they want to talk about it, if there is no thread for it someone will start a new one but as is with the internet will get flamed for not reading the old thread that got locked.

I say bring it all into a single thread, its really easy to keep track of new posts and if you dont want to read what people post you dont have to, the rumours are all compiled at the start of the thread as I get my greedy paws on them. If you just want rumours then look at the start, if you want to have a discussion you only need to look at this thread once every few days because it doesnt get that many posts when there are no new rumours.

So keep on posting, as long as the discussion is going its ok with me but flaming and REALLY off topic can go into pms or other threads.


----------



## HOBO

Well said..keep up the good work you do..it's appreciated.


----------



## Azezel

Well said, Old Man.


----------



## tu_shan82

Aye, your efforts surely are appreciated MadCow.


----------



## DonFer

GrizBe said:


> Well to get back on track with some rumours... the new models will come in scented coloured plastic to appeal to girls and hungry people.
> 
> Mmm.. bacon marines....


Hahahaha, There´s gonna be also the fabled "Do-it-yourself" GKs: 

_Not getting much love from GW? Tired of buying metal GKs that weight a ton? Worry no more! FW releases Grey Putty! to make whatever you want... for your Grey Knights! Sold in three sizes: Small, for your troops, Medium for your Dreads and Walkers and Robots and what not, and Big for the big guns! 
In stores near you after the GK codex release..._:crazy:

Oh and yes, thanks Mad Cow for the effort, we be surely scattered all around the galaxy if it were't for you.k:


----------



## Harpsichord

It may be baseless speculation on their part but when I emailed TheWarStore about prices for the Sisters of Battle boxes (troops and seraphim) they responded with:



> I’m sorry. These are no longer available. They are to be released this fall.


I don't know what they're basing this on, just thought it was interesting.


----------



## bitsandkits

almost 1100 posts and nothing concrete and no pictures , has to be some kinda record?


----------



## hungryugolino

PLASTIC STORMTROOPERS AND SISTERS!

Honest. 

Would this face lie to you?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Harpsichord said:


> It may be baseless speculation on their part but when I emailed TheWarStore about prices for the Sisters of Battle boxes (troops and seraphim) they responded with:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what they're basing this on, just thought it was interesting.


Modelling Mayhem had a similar statement on their site before they were closing down their shop, should be in the rumours section. They basically stated that no WH or DH products were available until the codicies were to be released and they were the next codicies to get released.

I guess we will know for sure at GD UK.

You cant really expect pictures of new GK units until they officially state they are to be released. Then again, maybe he have already been looking at them in say the Battle Missions that had a picture with some GK...


----------



## Vhalyar

Harpsichord said:


> It may be baseless speculation on their part but when I emailed TheWarStore about prices for the Sisters of Battle boxes (troops and seraphim) they responded with:


I emailed them months ago (along with Maelstrom and one more shop that I can't remember the name of) about this and got the same thing. Pretty sure that it's just speculation on their part.


----------



## GrizBe

MadCowCrazy said:


> You cant really expect pictures of new GK units until they officially state they are to be released. Then again, maybe he have already been looking at them in say the Battle Missions that had a picture with some GK...


Be a real kicker if the resin master sthat have been spotted are for the plastics rather then the metal.


----------



## mahavira

It's interesting to see the apparently widespread divergence of opinion between independent retailers and prominent rumor sources. So far we have 6 boxed sets missing:

Battle Sisters Squad
Grey Knights Squad
Stormtroopers (though you can still buy Karskins over at the IG section of the Canadian GW site at least)
Repentia
Seraphim
Acro-Flagellants

A couple of hundred posts back, Bindibaji said that some of the SoB stuff was just being repackaged. While this was believable (albeit irritating) for the SoB squad box (different special weapons, add an imagifer, change the sister superior are all options), it's harder to believe of repentia, seraphim and acro flagellants. For seraphim, the missing option doesn't exist, which just leaves fiddling with which sister superior to use and deciding whether you get 1 or two twin linked hand flamers in a box, and all you can do with repentia and acro flagellans is vary the number in a box.

Bindibaji - are you still expecting to see just repackaging of Battle Sister kits?


----------



## Kettu

Found this on warseer.




Stickmonkey said:


> May be my last post for a while as I'm heading to the jungle for a few months...and I'm unsure if I'll have even electricity in the village right now...
> 
> Anyhow, looking forward at 40k, I'm going to put down my forecast for 40k codex releases. May or may not be accurate, but its a best guess based on what bits I know...or think I know.
> 
> 2010
> Nov/Q4 - DE
> 2011
> Jan/Q1 - GK (may be as late as March)
> Late spring/Q2 - Necrons
> Early Fall/Q3 - Witch hunters or Black Templar
> Late Fall/Q4 - Tau
> 2012
> Early Spring/Q1 - Black Templar or Witch hunters
> Late Spring/Summer/Q2 - 40k 6E
> Early Fall/Q3 - 40k Box Set Eldar Vs ??? (plastic aspect warriors?)
> Late Fall/Q4 - Eldar
> 2013
> Early Spring/Q1 - Dark Angels
> Late Spring/Q2 - Chaos SM
> Fall/Q3+ - vanilla SM
> 
> I know I'm going way far out, and anything beyond 2011 is going purely into speculation, but I've had conversations that seem to support some of this so time will tell.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Wish me luck and much bug spray and Skink/Kroxigor repellant.


Hmm... Sisters potentially right before the next edition?
Well, I guess GW has to stick with the tradition of giving the Sisters the middle finger with their release.


----------



## Azezel

I don't know about you, but when I saw the phrase 'Witch Hunters' my heart just about froze. Please, please let the eventual Codex be Sisters of Battle, not Witch Hunters. (Edit: Codex: Ecclesiarchy would do in a pinch, but I'd not be thrilled)


Also, we can be pretty damned sure that SM is wrong on two points.



Stickmonkey said:


> Early Fall/Q3 - 40k Box Set Eldar Vs ??? (plastic aspect warriors?)


The 6e boxset will *certainly* contain Space Marines, almost certainly Ultras. I won't say there won't be Eldar in there - in fact that's what I'd bet on, but implying there might not be Marines in there too is crazy.




Stickmonkey said:


> Fall/Q3+ - vanilla SM


Seriously? GW would let a whole year of 6e go by before updating Vanilla Marines? Not bloody likely.

Other than that, that timeline looks plausible.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> I don't know about you, but when I saw the phrase 'Witch Hunters' my heart just about froze. Please, please let the eventual Codex be Sisters of Battle, not Witch Hunters. (Edit: Codex: Ecclesiarchy would do in a pinch, but I'd not be thrilled)


Fun thing about being pessimistic, things like that don't bother me because I already expect the worse.

But yes, here's hoping that the Inquisition is fully removed from the dex. It should have never gone there in the first place.



Azezel said:


> The 6e boxset will *certainly* contain Space Marines, almost certainly Ultras. I won't say there won't be Eldar in there - in fact that's what I'd bet on, but implying there might not be Marines in there too is crazy.


There is always a first.

Hell, if they want to do Sisters right this time they could always have them as the other army.
It'll never happen though, GW seems to be allergic to good ideas.

Egad, two in the morn.
Ok, night night everyone.


----------



## rodmillard

Kettu said:


> But yes, here's hoping that the Inquisition is fully removed from the dex. It should have never gone there in the first place.


I don't know, I could see an elite witch-hunter and retinue making it in (but not HQ), or maybe a named character witch-hunter (but done as a priest upgrade, rather than an Inquisitor). That said, if BindiBhaji is right and allied Inquisitors will be a seperate expansion (hell, even if they're just done as a WD article, like Deathwatch) then I don't see the need even for that.


----------



## Vhalyar

mahavira said:


> It's interesting to see the apparently widespread divergence of opinion between independent retailers and prominent rumor sources. So far we have 6 boxed sets missing:


Apparently the following Dark Eldar boxes are joining the Mail Order Only club:
- Dark Eldar Raider Plastic Box
- Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbike
- Dark Eldar Talos Box
- Dark Eldar Ravager

So now Sisters, Knights and Dark Eldar are all missing boxes.


----------



## mahavira

Vhalyar said:


> Apparently the following Dark Eldar boxes are joining the Mail Order Only club:
> - Dark Eldar Raider Plastic Box
> - Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbike
> - Dark Eldar Talos Box
> - Dark Eldar Ravager
> 
> So now Sisters, Knights and Dark Eldar are all missing boxes.


Interesting. There are 3 levels of unavailable: direct only, "this product is not available" and the page being altogether absent. The various inquisition armies appear to be further along the process of removal, and between the base grey knight set, the base battle sister set, and the absence of stormtroopers (other than Karskins), -what- is missing from GK/SoB is telling.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

2011
Early Fall/Q3 - Witch hunters or Black Templar
2012
Early Spring/Q1 - Black Templar or Witch hunters

I would wish them to be released in 2011 because if they waited until 2012 that would mean sisters would have been blisters only for over 2 years.
Then again sisters just before a new edition invalidating half the rules seems to be the GW norm...

Wow, used the word "would" 3 times correctly in a sentence... atleast I think I did


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I do not see why having sisters released before a new edition update is bad. Sure when it gets released a few rules might seem odd but when the new edition is released they will work well after the new edition. It worked for orks.

Personally I would go gooey over plastic aspects in the new starter set. Especially since my eager little brother can start playing at that point. He could have the other army whilst I take the eldar.

Sadly I am not holding any hopes for this. For this list to be accurate means GW have trouble holding secrets.


----------



## Azezel

rodmillard said:


> I don't know, I could see an elite witch-hunter and retinue making it in (but not HQ), or maybe a named character witch-hunter (but done as a priest upgrade, rather than an Inquisitor). That said, if BindiBhaji is right and allied Inquisitors will be a seperate expansion (hell, even if they're just done as a WD article, like Deathwatch) then I don't see the need even for that.


Inquisitors just don't belong on a battlefield. Inquisitors, no matter how effective in combat are not professional soldiers and ought to know when to get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job.

Amberly Veil knows that, I wish the Hereticus mob did too.



MadCowCrazy said:


> 2011
> Early Fall/Q3 - Witch hunters or Black Templar
> 2012
> Early Spring/Q1 - Black Templar or Witch hunters
> 
> I would wish them to be released in 2011 because if they waited until 2012 that would mean sisters would have been blisters only for over 2 years.
> Then again sisters just before a new edition invalidating half the rules seems to be the GW norm...
> 
> Wow, used the word "would" 3 times correctly in a sentence... atleast I think I did


Hi, I'm a pedant.

'Would' is a statement of intent or desire which doesn't apply to a situation where the thing one "intends" to do, one in fact already has done.

You *do* wish for Sisters to be released in 2011 - no 'would' about it.

As for '_that would mean sisters would have been blisters only for over 2 years_.'

Again - 'would' does not apply because you are dealing with certainties, not intentions. 'Should' indicated certainties or obligations. The third 'would' is simply not needed at all, no word is needed there.

that _should_ mean sisters have been blisters only for over 2 years.


However, all of the above is simple pedantry and you oughtn't take any notice. I wouldn't had you not all but invited me to.* Most people use 'would' for every situation and everyone knows what is meant. Carry on.

*Yes I ended that sentence with a preposition, no that's not bad grammar.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Inquisitors just don't belong on a battlefield. Inquisitors, no matter how effective in combat are not professional soldiers and ought to know when to get the hell out of the way and let the professionals do their job.
> 
> Amberly Veil knows that, I wish the Hereticus mob did too.


Then those useless Ecclesiarchy idiots also need to go. At least Inquisitors -have- combat training and are probably schooled in tactics as part of their education.

As to what Amberly Veil knows, Gregor Eisenhorn seemed to think accompanying Deathwatch into battle was perfectly valid behavior and none of the Deathwatch, who are presumably even more professional than Cain's guardsmen, seemed to take any offense to the idea. The Inquisitor in Emperor's Mercy also led troops in battle, and did a better job than the professionals. Some inquisitors have the skills necessary to be useful leaders in combat, others don't. The ones that don't don't show up in games of 40K.


----------



## Kettu

Stephen_Newman said:


> I do not see why having sisters released before a new edition update is bad. Sure when it gets released a few rules might seem odd but when the new edition is released they will work well after the new edition. It worked for orks.


I take it you are unfamiliar with the history of Sisters of Battle releases?

Back in 2nd ed the Sisters of Battle codex was released to very little fanfare and was promptly rendered obsolete by 3rd edition coming out three months after.
That was a total of three months.

In 3rd ed the Sisters sat through every single other codex including two new races and a new marine chapter before being released three or four months before 4th edition.
Again, a total of a quarter of a year.

3rd to 4th was as bad a 2nd to 3rd but it was still written solely with 3rd ed in mind, rules wise.
There is an ability the Sisters have and are, I assume, priced point wise for which is being able to ignore 'minor' psychic powers. What this is I don't know but it was only valid in 3rd.
One character, the Acolyte, can take a bullet for the Inquisitor. He is more or less, an expensive extra wound you can buy for the Inquisitor.
This ability was incapable of being used in 4th due to the mix armour save rules.
There are a few other minor points within the codex that only applied to 3rd however I can't think of them at this point in time.


----------



## mahavira

I expect the 'no retreat' rule didn't have quite the perverse result it currently does when inquisitor lords decide to succeed at leadership checks. Whatever you are fighting, having killed the T3 6+ save parts of your retinue (who may be the only troops in teh game worse in melee than tau fire warriors) wins the combat. YOu decide to make your leadership check rather than get wiped out by a sweeping advance, and take a bunch of extra wounds. Any 3E vets able to say whether this was an issue then too?

Whether they put inquisitors in the codex or a separate suppliment, for the love of god change how the retinue system works...


----------



## Katie Drake

mahavira said:


> I expect the 'no retreat' rule didn't have quite the perverse result it currently does when inquisitor lords decide to succeed at leadership checks. Whatever you are fighting, having killed the T3 6+ save parts of your retinue (who may be the only troops in teh game worse in melee than tau fire warriors) wins the combat. YOu decide to make your leadership check rather than get wiped out by a sweeping advance, and take a bunch of extra wounds. Any 3E vets able to say whether this was an issue then too?
> 
> Whether they put inquisitors in the codex or a separate suppliment, for the love of god change how the retinue system works...


In 3rd edition being Fearless (or similar) was a magical rule that had no real downsides. No Retreat! didn't yet exist as it didn't show up until 4th edition.


----------



## Shandathe

Also, at least SOME of the Utterly Useless Unit brigade (Priests, anyone?) must've seemed like a good idea...


----------



## boreas

I'm not sure if Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy belong on the battlefield, fluff-wise, but when it comes to gameplay I say: "screw the fluff". Inquisitors and ecclesiarchy models are great looking models that bring a lot of flavor and fun to the game. I really hope they make it...

Phil


----------



## Kettu

@boreas;

Well, Ecclesiarchy priests and the like make as much sense as the Inquisition, which is to say, not much.

There is Priests in the IG dex isn't there?
So it isn't completely unheard of however, 2nd ed had Chaos, Genestealer and Chaos Genestealer cults of which all do not have current rules. I suppose the Ecclesiarchy rabble and the such fit the same bill they did and we just haven't gotten a proper update to make their exclusion official.

In the Sisters codex I would like to see it almost, if not, entirely the Sisterhood.
I do not want the Inquisition to reappear in the dex, they were very poorly shoe-horned into the current one and diluted the feel of the army overall.

If the Ecclesiarchy is included more then just the obligatory priests and priestesses (Please make priestess minis GW. You know, all female army and all) then I hope they have a full list with one or more options in each of the FOC slots.
However, this would ultimately chew up space that could/would/should otherwise be used for the Sisters and open up a can of worms about at what point the Ecclesiarchy can exploit the decree passive without consequence.

---

And so my post isn't fully off topic, Amazon lists the release date of FFG's Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs source book as November the 30th.
It's kinda late for a stated Fall release but from what I understand, Fantasy Flight Games has an awful habit of not sticking to their own deadlines.


----------



## boreas

Kettu said:


> @boreas;
> 
> Well, Ecclesiarchy priests and the like make as much sense as the Inquisition, which is to say, not much.


WH40k as a whole doesn't make sense. That's why fluff has to stop being a moderator on gaming fun. I was first drawn to WH40k by the penitent engines, arco-flagellant, assassins and =I=. Although I do understand that pure sisters/pure GK players want the whole codice for themselves, I ask that the same people understand that the =I= part of those codice are cherished by other community members  

Phil


----------



## gen.ahab

Inquisitors SHOULD be in both the GK codex and the WH codex. Fluff stands by it, I won't go into it since most of the BL fluff says they should be in it, but if they get their own codex and are able to take detachments from one of these two books then fine by me.


----------



## Azezel

Damn me but that's a well reasoned argument, almost Aristotelian in its nuanced examination of both sides of the question...

All sarcasm aside - it's been established that the Inquisition are going to get their own book, so no matter how one feels about Inquisitors on the battlefield it seems, at best, superfluous to include them in somebody else's Codices.

Oh, and Kettu - I'm with you. I'd much rather have Codex: Sisters of Battle, than Codex: Ecclesiarchy.

Again, the Ecclesiarchy maintains an army presumably, so that their priests don't have to fight themselves (in fact, there's a law against it!).

What I would like though, is an ordained Battle Priestess. A woman, wearing power armour who is a battle sister as well as a priest. Give her funky armour and a crook or whatnot - obviously a Priest, with attendant benefits and costs, but also obviously a full Battle Sister with attendant rules.


----------



## boreas

Well "determined" is a bit much. Not that I want to doubt BB's word, but so far, no one else has come forward with this "whatchamakallit inquisitor supplement". I for one, would be extremely disappointed in such a book. First, it would make Inquisitors illegal in many circle (as they would be considered "supplement" units, like apocalypse units) second, it might bring back the leafblower debacle (by allowing any imperial player to cheese out his army with well chosen inquisitorial supplements).

Phil


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

boreas said:


> Well "determined" is a bit much. Not that I want to doubt BB's word, but so far, no one else has come forward with this "whatchamakallit inquisitor supplement". I for one, would be extremely disappointed in such a book. First, it would make Inquisitors illegal in many circle (as they would be considered "supplement" units, like apocalypse units) second, it might bring back the leafblower debacle (by allowing any imperial player to cheese out his army with well chosen inquisitorial supplements).
> 
> Phil


Now take your two arguements together... 'Leafblower' would be dissallowed due to supplement units, while the people who will agree to use them will NOT be playing full-competative games (most likely).


----------



## boreas

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Now take your two arguements together... 'Leafblower' would be dissallowed due to supplement units, while the people who will agree to use them will NOT be playing full-competative games (most likely).


What I'm saying is it's a lose-lose proposition: either the =I= units are not allowed (and thus we lose the "leafblowers" but also all those nice fluffy themed lists) or they are not (so we do have the possibility to use the nice fluffy lists be have to suffer another "leafblower" debacle). And not only in tournements. Some very casual gaming circles will allow "supplement" units like the Forgeworld ones in regular games, but many will not. You might end up going to your local store and find people will play your codex, but not =I= units. I know about 50% of gamers here will disallow even "basic" forgeworld units (like the Thudd gun or XV-9 suits) even in casual gameplay. All in all, a supplement just adds confusion where clear codex units would not.

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Then again they may just do what an Inquisition force is suppose to do and make it so only the Inquisitors can request the units of other forces. Its the Inquisitor that has the power to demand other forces join them, not the other way around.

This would pretty much be the exact same way the WH and DH codex works currently.
You can requisition 1HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite and 1 Fast attack from another codex but no more. I always found it strange a SM player could ally with an Inquisitor, since when did the lowly spheez mahreenz have the authority to demand an Inquisitor to work for them?

If they did it this way (as it was intended imo) it would not really be possible to do really cheesy builds, while you could make really fluffy ones. As this is all speculation Im sure someone could argue that maybe the Inquisitor units would be godly and then they could have godly terminators or whatever but I believe my point is still valid because you would not end up with someone taking IG, BA or SW and then just allying in 1 single Inquisitor just to get mystics.


----------



## DonFer

I see the release of a pure "Inquisition Codex" a very distant, if not impossible possibility. Firstly, a complete codex full of elite units is not what GW would put their money in. I don't think that the =]I[= will create new units to make them viable as a stand alone army. Moreover, it has been strongly suggested that the allies rule will be eliminated so, in my limited oppinion, this alone could eliminate the possibility of a =]I[= codex. 
I agree with the fact that they should be included in the GK and Sisters upcoming codexes (codici?? whatever). I don't see this hampering or invalidating the inclussion of a pure Sisters of GK army, fluffwise the GKs and Sisters ARE the chamber millitant of the Inquisition (different branches for each one) and as such they are as close as the butter over my bread I had for breakfast this morning.

Fernando


----------



## Azezel

Inquisitors were added to what should have been the Sisters codex in third edition as an _advertisment_ for GW's then new Inquisitor 54mm game. Maybe this time they could give half of my Codex to genestealers as an advert for Space Hulk?

Hm - I seem to be getting a little confrontational here, which is not a good sign.

The long and short of it is that no other army has to give up part of its codex to support someone else's army, so why should mine? Particularly when that other army is a seven year old marketing ploy for a different game which is no longer in print.


----------



## gen.ahab

It is my opinion that both C:GK and, if it comes, C:SOB(lol) should at least include an inquisitor HQ choice. If they do in fact create a C:_( or however that sym is made) then they wouldn't need it because you could make a fluffy force with an inquisitor you can, it might be more expensive, but you can still do it._


----------



## DonFer

Peace mate:victory:

Whatever the reasons GW used to introduce Inquisitors in the codex, they per se are not an army. And I really don't see a pure iquisitor army any time soon. Sisters as well as GKs are part of the Inquisition so, it is only natural to introuce them in the codex. However I see that they are not fully developed. Maybe with a bit of work each inquisitor for both Sisters and GKs (heck even Deathwatch) could be the unique characters they're intended to be.

Once more it all comes down to taste, wether you like Inquisitors or not. Let's just hope GW does what's best for the game. I really would hate to see a "add" in the upcoming GK codex that reads: "Inquisitor Stats: Sorry but you'll have to buy the upcoming codex, in stores November 2016. visit us on gw online for more news"


----------



## boreas

Azezel said:


> Inquisitors were added to what should have been the Sisters codex in third edition as an _advertisment_ for GW's then new Inquisitor 54mm game. Maybe this time they could give half of my Codex to genestealers as an advert for Space Hulk?
> 
> Hm - I seem to be getting a little confrontational here, which is not a good sign.
> 
> The long and short of it is that no other army has to give up part of its codex to support someone else's army, so why should mine? Particularly when that other army is a seven year old marketing ploy for a different game which is no longer in print.


I understant that... Although, frankly, with the more massive codice (that includes 16-20 units, if not more) there is room for both more SoB units and =I= units. I'd rather see Ecclesiarchy units, though (Penitents, Arco-flagellants, priests, zealots).

Phil


----------



## Azezel

I was being too confrontational earlier and I appologise.

I too would rather see Ecclesiarchy units than Inquisition ones - though I'd sooner not see them either...

There are in fact, 19 units in the current Codex: Witch Hunters - and that doesn't count transports.

Which is the problem - 5e codices _do_ have more units than 3e ones, but it's unlikely to be a huge amount more and I greatly fear cracking it open and, for example, turning to the Troops section:

'Oh, Battle Sister squad, cool, or... Oh, Stormtroopers, Frateris Militia or Zealots. I guess I'll be using Battle Sisters, just like before.'

In other words - the codex might contain twice as many _choices_ as it did, but not any additional _choice_.

Which on reflection is pretty selfish, but there you go.

I think I'd better drop the subject until something approaching a fact is sighted.


----------



## Shandathe

The time for facts is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering!


----------



## boreas

Shandathe said:


> The time for facts is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering!


You see, that's why we need zealots in the next codex... Randomly charging mobs are FUN! :crazy:

Phil


----------



## Tuatara

Shandathe said:


> The time for facts is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering!


Making allegations based on spurious claims and then punishing people for them was one of the cornerstones on what the Inquisition was built.

I like the idea if the Inquisition in at least one codex (be that DH or SOB). It is one of the cool things that set them apart from other Space Marine chapters. Having said that, I feel the Inquisitor should be one of the Elites in the DH force, not one of the HQs. The logic being that GKs are generally sent somewhere to deal with an incursion on their own. They have done it for a while now and are pretty good at it. If an Inquisitor comes along, it would be more because they need to be there as well in order to gain certain information or because an Inquisitor has skills or information that will help the GKs succeed in their mission. The force should still be under the command of a Brother Captain or a Grand Master.

Just my 2 sesterces worth.


----------



## Necrosis

Tuatara said:


> Making allegations based on spurious claims and then punishing people for them was one of the cornerstones on what the Inquisition was built.
> 
> I like the idea if the Inquisition in at least one codex (be that DH or SOB). It is one of the cool things that set them apart from other Space Marine chapters. Having said that, I feel the Inquisitor should be one of the Elites in the DH force, not one of the HQs. The logic being that GKs are generally sent somewhere to deal with an incursion on their own. They have done it for a while now and are pretty good at it. If an Inquisitor comes along, it would be more because they need to be there as well in order to gain certain information or because an Inquisitor has skills or information that will help the GKs succeed in their mission. The force should still be under the command of a Brother Captain or a Grand Master.
> 
> Just my 2 sesterces worth.


I actually really like this idea. I mean makes a few tweaks here and there and I could actually see this idea work very well. I also like the idea that the Inquisition should only be in one Codex not both.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Necrosis said:


> I also like the idea that the Inquisition should only be in one Codex not both.


Because this would mean they would only be in C:GK since they are rumoured to have some presence in it 

Meaning our C:SoB would be pure sisters or ecchlesiarchy


----------



## Azezel

In that the GK are more closely tied to (in fact, part of) the Inquisition, if anyone whould have =][= units in their 'dex, it's them.

I know at least one person who'd be a little miffed about it, though.

I think what you said earlier was the best method: An =][= book with rules to requesition units from other codices. Everybody wins - especially GW who now get to sell 2-5 books to the likes of Boreas, instead of 1.


----------



## gen.ahab

GK arn't actually any more a part of the inquisition than the SoB. They are an astartes chapter just as the ultramarines or the space wolves are.


----------



## Azezel

They are a Space Marine chapter, but they are outside of the structure which contains all other Astartes chapters. Morover, they are entirely of the Ordo Malleus. Their Grand Masters sit on the council, they have no homeworld but Titan, which is part of the Ordo Malleus domain of Saturn. They have no chapter serfs, they're served by mind-scrubbed Malleus personel.

Just as Deathwatch are of the Ordo Xenos, the Grey Knights are of the Ordo Malleus.

Deathwatch belong to, and serve only the Ordo Xenos.

The Grey Knights Belong to and serve only the Ordo Malleus - but the Ordo Malleus also serve the Grey Knights.

The Sisters of Battle Belong to the Ecclesiarchy, but serve both the Ecclesiarchy & the Ordo Hereticus...


----------



## gen.ahab

He sits but they have the same status as any other chapter of the astartes, they may be the militant branch of the ordo, but on the basic level they are an astates chapter. They may be suplimented with personel from the ordo buy that does not change their status as a chapter. They function and preform join operations with the ordo, they are not forced, inquisitors still have to request assistance. The sisters are equally a part of the inquisition as the knights.


----------



## Shandathe

So... the points everyone agrees on are:

A) Inquisitors should be in a Codex
and
B) Inquisitors should not be in MY Codex (at least not as a major component)

I feel we're making progress


----------



## gen.ahab

Yeah.... Basically.


----------



## gen.ahab

It's not quite as simple as "they are the ordo", they are the militant branch, yes, but at the same time they are part of the astates. They have the privilages of both branches. I don't see them as one or both, but something totally different. I see them as a special group. The reason for this is because they can go against the will of an inquisitor. Although I may be wrong, I haven't really studied much of the inquisition and their connection with their militant branch.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I honestly think it should be Codex: Ecclesiarchy. So what if some people want pure SOB? Just don't take the other choices!

I'm kinda half-heartedly working on a Homebrew Codex:Ecclesiarchy, not sure if I'll finish it, but whatever. My idea of the FOC was something like this:

HQ
Canoness
Palatine
Confessor
Missionary
Preacher
Celestian Command Squad (Attachment: Sister Dialogous)

ELITE
Celestian Squad
Sister Hospitallers
Sister Repentia Squad
Bound Witch Unit
Death Cult Assassins

TROOP
Battle Sisters Squad
Zealot Mob
Fraetis Militia

TRANSPORT
Rhino
Repressor
Immolator

FAST ATTACK
Seraphrim Squad
Sister Dominion Squad
Arco-Flagellant Unit
Sister Avenger Unit

HEAVY SUPPORT
Immolator
Penitent Engine
Exorcist
Banisher Battle Tank
Retributor Squad

Plenty of variety there, and I've only really created two new units (The Banisher and the Sister Avengers) the rest have already been in the game in one shape or another.


----------



## Katie Drake

That's actually a pretty cool homebrew 'Dex you've got going there Skoll. Thought of posting it up in the Houserules and Homebrews section and going in-depth and possibly getting help?


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. There already IS a homebrew Codex Ecclesiarchy from Necrosis, which is pretty good and can be found here. Perhaps it's time for people to join forces a la the Chaos Dwarves...


----------



## Necrosis

Shandathe said:


> Hrmm. There already IS a homebrew Codex Ecclesiarchy from Necrosis, which is pretty good and can be found here. Perhaps it's time for people to join forces a la the Chaos Dwarves...


Just remember it's Ecclesiarchy not sisters. So the whole thing won't be pure sisters. I should also release an FAQ for it.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Katie Drake said:


> That's actually a pretty cool homebrew 'Dex you've got going there Skoll. Thought of posting it up in the Houserules and Homebrews section and going in-depth and possibly getting help?


Okay, talked me into it. I'll throw it up now...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Posted the picture Stickmonkey provided of the new GK Walker


----------



## Azezel

And I see they're finally letting girlscouts be Grey Knights, too...


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Azezel said:


> And I see they're finally letting girlscouts be Grey Knights, too...


and there I was thinking the only bunch of girl SM's were the ultramarines


----------



## boreas

Well, all things being equals, SoB are female space marine... I'm pretty sure the next codex will bring this more into line by adding whirwinds, Land Raiders, Land Speeders and SoB termies...


*ducks*


I sure hope not!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

WTF, I was just perma banned from Warseer for posting offensive pictures, but I havent even posted any pictures?!
I received a warning for the picture I posted 2 weeks ago and 1 week ban, now Im permabanned? wtf?

Figured out which post the banned me form.

A person said he talked to some designer and was told you would get a nerdgasm when you saw the new models. Something that has been said many times before.

All I posted was :

I wonder if it will be anything like this.





What the hell is offensive about this link? Are the mods over at warseer retarded or just really fucking retarded?


----------



## gen.ahab

If they're that uptight then fuck'em. Can you just make another account or do they block the ISP?


----------



## Shandathe

Sounds like someone's taken a personal dislike to you, really. Ahab's probably right in that it's not worth posting there anymore, and you should still be able to read (most of it?) without an account... I can, anyway.


----------



## rodmillard

gen.ahab said:


> If they're that uptight then fuck'em.


Although perhaps not literally, since that's exactly the sort of thing they accused you of in the first place :wink:


----------



## Azezel

Meh. Their loss old man.

For all it's popularity, I don't fully understand why Warseer is the premier Warhammer forum. This place is much more civilised.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel, you just answered your own question.

Ok, I was going to obtain a copy of Blood of Martyrs as soon as it came out and share much of the Sister related portions with you all. 
However as the date is later then I expected (November the 30th) I'll hold off buying it till early next year when I go down to Cancon (Aussie miniature convention held in Canberra) where I can get it cheaper.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Who is writing that Blood of Martyrs book? I cant find any info about it what so ever with google or by looking at black librarys website.

Could you give a link to it because my googlefu is not up to the task.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> For all it's popularity, I don't fully understand why Warseer is the premier Warhammer forum. This place is much more civilised.


Ah, the question of logic in relation to internet forums

The thing about forums is that they are full of people on t'internet, 
the thing about people on t'internet is that they generally ignore all logic,
the thing about logic in relation to internet forums is that logic never applies to internet forums


----------



## Kettu

This is sadly the only source of info that is up at the moment.
Well, except from the Amazon page.


----------



## DonFer

Talking about S. Koponski and his Siege of Vraks artwork, he's got a lot of WH40k related works, there's even a SoB vs Dark Eldar picture! Here's a link for those interested:

http://cghub.com/images/view/38120/


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> Meh. Their loss old man.
> 
> For all it's popularity, I don't fully understand why Warseer is the premier Warhammer forum. This place is much more civilised.


Birds of a feather flock together. Are you surprised?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

http://cghub.com/images/view/12007/

Read the comment. "Illustration for front of box - in its entirety. " 
Would be awesome if it turned out to be a DE vs SoB box set. Then again there is no way in hell GW would do that, there has to be SM in there somewhere.

Bah, just noticed it was a cover design for Soulstorm :/


----------



## DonFer

Yeap, there was a split second when I thought I hit gold and had located new artwork for the dexes... of course I had not...:scratchhead:


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> "Illustration for front of box - in its entirety. "


Oh if only it was.

I really wouldn't mind waiting three or what ever years till the next edition it this were the case.

Unfortunately we'll just have Smurfs gunning down Eldar or Tau.
Or other Smurfs...

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Space Marines"


----------



## gen.ahab

Thats just because they make more money. And, tbh, space wolves and blood angels can hardly be called your run of the mill SM army.


----------



## Azezel

No-one is more vehement in his, for want of a better word, opinions about the position Space Marines hold in the game, but maybe we should not have that conversation here?


----------



## gen.ahab

No, I suppose not. lol


----------



## Kettu

Hey, I remain civil.

...

Most the time


----------



## Vhalyar

More stuff that is/was being playtested?



Balgora said:


> Oh i have another question!
> 
> Are GK squads being made smaller and psycannons being made a max of 1 in them to compensate for the new stat line you mentioned(both psycannons and armour saves) ?
> 
> 10 man squads always seemed a bit large for the elite of the elite and that would make sense to me to justify how awesome psycannons will be if that change happens.





Stickmonkey said:


> Combat squads were an option I know was ptd.
> 
> Since I'm only going by memory now and have no new contact, please treat this info appropriately...
> 
> Also, I under stand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.
> 
> Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the pt group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.


----------



## GrizBe

Just read the stickmonkey post about GK Jetbikes:



Stickmonkey said:


> The gk jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has nfw in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like tl storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got 86d.


Shame they got scraped... sounded like they'd have been pretty awesome models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Think I just found the worlds smallest Battle Sister 

http://www.thinglab.co.uk/gallery.php

I was looking around for 3D Printers and came across this site. They actually printed the Epic FW Titan with one of their printers. They also printed an Epic size battle sister. Check out Picture 82


----------



## Tuatara

That's pretty cool man. Nice find.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

wow that be tiny.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Yeah, like two shots later was a warhound ... WTF?


----------



## coke123

Was just looking at the Whats New Today post, it hinted at 'Big News' coming this Monday. Maybe the news we've all been waiting for, hopefully at least an answer about the who's-first-GK-or-DE argument. Was in my local store recently, asked them about GK and he said nothing more than "I know what it is, and it's not GK"

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600006a


----------



## Doelago

coke123 said:


> Was just looking at the Whats New Today post, it hinted at 'Big News' coming this Monday. Maybe the news we've all been waiting for, hopefully at least an answer about the who's-first-GK-or-DE argument. Was in my local store recently, asked them about GK and he said nothing more than "I know what it is, and it's not GK"
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600006a


For the sake of the Emperor I hope that they are wrong... The Emperors finst must come first... 



> "Have a great The Island of Blood weekend and be sure to stop by on Monday as we have a big announcement for you and plenty of great content..."


And those were the lines from the Whats New Today post, and I reeeaaaly hope that they hint at the Grey Knights... Otherwise you chaos workshipping SOABs will feel it in your bones...


----------



## Vhalyar

coke123 said:


> Was just looking at the Whats New Today post, it hinted at 'Big News' coming this Monday. Maybe the news we've all been waiting for, hopefully at least an answer about the who's-first-GK-or-DE argument. Was in my local store recently, asked them about GK and he said nothing more than "I know what it is, and it's not GK"
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600006a


It's about Isle of Blood, not Dark Eldar or anything else. The French website had the same line, except with a little extra at the end saying it was about IoB.
Edit: "Come back on Monday for a big announcement relative to the Island of Blood..."

Back to GK rumors!



Spectral Dragon said:


> May as well throw in what I have heard here.
> 
> -NO Stormraven Kit. Apparently GW wants to put out a stormraven conversion article in White Dwarf which would boost sales of a few models they already have.
> 
> -Upgrade Sprue of some kind. I would guess for vehicles, specifically LR, RB, Predator (I wasn't told what was on the upgrade sprue, I am thinking Psycannon upgrades make the most sense.)
> 
> -Expect heavy point costs still
> 
> -Heavy Fluff changes under the guise of "advancing the fluff," I imagine they will be actively saying the GK's will go anywhere they are needed if no Daemons are present.
> 
> Again to Stickmonkey, thank you for what you do. That said (and I wish to say this in as conversational of a tone as I can) some of what I have been told......directly goes against what I am reading. Won't say your wrong, Frankly my friends have been wrong before, and I am beginning to fear they may be decieved a lot of the time.





Spectral Dragon said:


> My sources were right about Wolves, Right about Tyranids, and wrong about BA, there have been smaller things I could list, but that pretty much sums up how often they are right. (Yes, more than one, though one main one.)
> 
> Rules wise what I heard is NFW is staying pretty much the same, with some tweaks. Grandmasters can combine NFW rule with, say, lightning claws, but only Grandmasters.
> 
> The Aegis I have heard is going to change to a simple 4+ or possibly 5+ cover save.
> 
> Those are the main things I heard, take with a lot of salt please.


----------



## Nemesis-The-Warlock

Vhalyar said:


> Back to GK rumors!


If you have come across spectral dragon before you will note he all spends all his time talking about how right he usually is, 
however he is almost always wrong and seems to shout down people who question him


necrons in early 2010? - no
blood angels won't be released until 2011? - wrong
nids in early 2008 - wrong


----------



## rodmillard

Vhalyar said:


> It's about Isle of Blood, not Dark Eldar or anything else. The French website had the same line, except with a little extra at the end saying it was about IoB.
> Edit: "Come back on Monday for a big announcement relative to the Island of Blood..."


Probably the new high elf kits going up for preorder. Be nice to finally know what they all are, but nothing to do with GK (or even 40K).


----------



## GrizBe

Well on Spectral Dragons rumours, on the 'Stormraven conversion' I can say is pretty much total bull as several reliable people have said there WILL be a kit for it. That and when was the last time you saw a 'convert anything' article in White Dwarf?

Plus... they'd make more money selling a kit as few people are willing to convert one, where-as lots of people would buy one.

Only thing that is sensible, as its already been confirmed by Stickmonkey, is the conversion sprue, since GK's are meant to be able to take Razorbacks, and the heavy points cost.. which is obvious.

Otherwise... *dumps on the salt*

edit: Ohh.. and that 'big announcement' is 99% likely to be about Fantasy.


----------



## Doelago

GrizBe said:


> Ohh.. and that 'big announcement' is 99% likely to be about Fantasy.


Good thing that I am one of those who puts his money on the 1%...


----------



## coke123

Vhalyar said:


> It's about Isle of Blood, not Dark Eldar or anything else. The French website had the same line, except with a little extra at the end saying it was about IoB.
> Edit: "Come back on Monday for a big announcement relative to the Island of Blood..."


Damn, didn't say that on the Australian site (and therefore I assume all the other English sites). My bad sorry for going off topic (even if it was an accident). Frankly, I don't really mind about if or when the update happens, I just want to be able to start my GK army without worrying about whether nice new plastics will come out, meaning I'll have needlessly blown tons of money on metal models with limited poses. But I digress...


----------



## rodmillard

coke123 said:


> Frankly, I don't really mind about if or when the update happens, I just want to be able to start my GK army without worrying about whether nice new plastics will come out, meaning I'll have needlessly blown tons of money on metal models with limited poses. But I digress...


Same boat here - I love the GKs, but currently only have a single unit of GKTs that I ally with my sisters. I've been putting off turning them into a full army because I didn't want to spend all that money on metal minis only to have them invalidated by the new Codex.


----------



## GrizBe

Wow... ever wanted more proof that the warseer mods are crazy.... I posted over there saying that I thought suggesting there would be no Stormraven kit was dumb... I get an official warning, said I've been trying to bypass the swearing filter when there was nothing even remotely like swearing in my post... AND they've deleted 20 posts from the thread..... :laugh:


----------



## Vhalyar

Nemesis-The-Warlock said:


> If you have come across spectral dragon before you will note he all spends all his time talking about how right he usually is,
> however he is almost always wrong and seems to shout down people who question him
> 
> 
> necrons in early 2010? - no
> blood angels won't be released until 2011? - wrong
> nids in early 2008 - wrong


Really? Oh well. Hopefully someone more reputable will get a case of loose tongue soon then.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> Wow... ever wanted more proof that the warseer mods are crazy.... I posted over there saying that I thought suggesting there would be no Stormraven kit was dumb... I get an official warning, said I've been trying to bypass the swearing filter when there was nothing even remotely like swearing in my post... AND they've deleted 20 posts from the thread..... :laugh:


I used the same reasoning as you for not posting what that guy said here, I am a bit more careful now about posting rumours because of the fake ones from DakkaDakka. If what he said proves to be true then I will consider his ideas in the future.

For those wondering here are the rumours :
All in all nothing new except that there will be no Stormraven Kit.
I personally find it harder to believe GW would make a conversion article in WD than releasing a new kit. I cant even remember the last time they did such a thing.


Spectral Dragon said:


> May as well throw in what I have heard here.
> 
> -NO Stormraven Kit. Apparently GW wants to put out a stormraven conversion article in White Dwarf which would boost sales of a few models they already have.
> 
> -Upgrade Sprue of some kind. I would guess for vehicles, specifically LR, RB, Predator (I wasn't told what was on the upgrade sprue, I am thinking Psycannon upgrades make the most sense.)
> 
> -Expect heavy point costs still
> 
> -Heavy Fluff changes under the guise of "advancing the fluff," I imagine they will be actively saying the GK's will go anywhere they are needed if no Daemons are present.
> 
> Again to Stickmonkey, thank you for what you do. That said (and I wish to say this in as conversational of a tone as I can) some of what I have been told......directly goes against what I am reading. Won't say your wrong, Frankly my friends have been wrong before, and I am beginning to fear they may be decieved a lot of the time.


I think the mods over at Warseer might be doing drugs or something, some of their recent decisions are very questionable by sane standards.
I guess we can invite Harry and Stickmonkey to come post rumours here once the admins at Warseer bans them though


----------



## GrizBe

That was my point... When was the last time GW did a convert anything article in GW, or even on the website? I can't remember one.

Plus, as said, its kinda dumb to not make a SR kit, more people want to buy then would be willing or able to convert one.

Plus, pretty sure that Stickmonkey's near enough confirmed there WILL be one from what he's said, as has Harry.

And now i'm repeating myself. lol



Warseer though, it no wonder I've always just lurked there... they're all :wacko:


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I never bothered. I thought this forum was more quiet, has less idiots, is nicer to be on and actually does not have tonnes of threads that are all complete rubbish.

I have been looking at WD since issue 274. I do not think I have ever seen a conversion article. Heck if GW make a kit for the eldar nightspinner which was released rules wise in WD then why not make a stormraven kit that is actually used in 2 armies?


----------



## rodmillard

Way back when (about 10 years ago, if not earlier) there was a regular column called "Mad Dok's Konvershun Klinik" which taught you step by step how to build things like Legion of the Damned bikers using a SM biker kit and a skeleton horseman, and you could order bitz packs with all the components you needed from GW direct. They never did anything on the scale of a StormRaven though, and even if they did I can't see them going back to it now...


----------



## oblivion8

> Way back when (about 10 years ago, if not earlier) there was a regular column called "Mad Dok's Konvershun Klinik" which taught you step by step how to build things like Legion of the Damned bikers using a SM biker kit and a skeleton horseman, and you could order bitz packs with all the components you needed from GW direct. They never did anything on the scale of a StormRaven though, and even if they did I can't see them going back to it now...


wasnt quite playing then, but I remember some really cool conversion articles in the back, which supplied you with the bitz you would need (like in a orderable package)
although that was when gw cared about the hobby and the customers... isn't white dwarf just about battle reports now? xD I havnt bothered picking one up in like 3+ years


----------



## HOBO

GrizBe said:


> Wow... ever wanted more proof that the warseer mods are crazy.... I posted over there saying that I thought suggesting there would be no Stormraven kit was dumb... I get an official warning, said I've been trying to bypass the swearing filter when there was nothing even remotely like swearing in my post... AND they've deleted 20 posts from the thread..... :laugh:


Just wear your Banned badge with honour..I do. Warseer's Mods do let their 'power' go to their head a lot that's for sure. 

Surely there will be a Storm Raven kit..I have laid off getting the Caestus so I have money set aside for 1 or 2.:nono:


----------



## coke123

oblivion8 said:


> isn't white dwarf just about battle reports now? xD I havnt bothered picking one up in like 3+ years


I've got a current subscription, it is mainly about the battle report (at least for me), although there is always a 'Eavy Metal painting techniques article, "Standard Bearer" which is kinda like an editorial on wargaming written by Jervis, a model gallery for whatever new flavour of Space Marine they're trying to flog, and maybe a tactics article (again usually for whatever new army is out). Oh, and there's always a token LOTR article that I always skip. The most important thing about the magazine is the back page.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I think the mods over at Warseer might be doing drugs or something, some of their recent decisions are very questionable by sane standards.


Nah, don't you have to roll for combat drugs? Therefore statistically they should each be insane in their own unique way. Perhaps the taint of Chaos is to blame?

Anyway, didn't the Valkyrie do amazingly well in sales when it was first released? I remember buying one as a birthday present for a mate, and it cost a shitload (good thing I only paid a third). With that kind of popularity and profit margin for a similar unit, GW would be insane to force people to convert this. Oh wait, I just realised my lapse in logic...


----------



## gen.ahab

Opposed to forcing people to play multiple kits in order to construct one model.


----------



## GrizBe

HOBO said:


> Just wear your Banned badge with honour..I do. Warseer's Mods do let their 'power' go to their head a lot that's for sure.
> 
> Surely there will be a Storm Raven kit..I have laid off getting the Caestus so I have money set aside for 1 or 2.:nono:


 LOL Going to, something like " I got banned from Warseer for being too intelligent". lol


The Cestus would make a great Stormraven alternative model though I think.. when I first saw the mock up I was hoping that the SR would look something similar to it. Infact, if you read the rules for the Cestus, they could almost be built around the same chasis.


----------



## Vaz

There's a reason it's called Whoreseer. I got banned after 4-5 hours for calling a guy a knob for telling me that my old Eldar Arachnid list should drop it's scorpions and warp spiders for Banshee's and Fire Dragons.


----------



## GrizBe

He didn't get from its name it was a themed list that was meant to feature them? :laugh:


----------



## Vaz

Yup, hence the light insult, woulda gone to town on the guy if I made it obvious though. I mean it's not as though "[3000] Arachnid Themed Eldar" is hard to miss. Although thinking back now, it was "FuckyK" Online that banned me for that.

Whoreseer... now I think back, it was because Doctor Thunder was getting trolled on here, and I told the trollees to grow the fuck up, literally verbally smashed them all over the place, then when the thread got shut down here, I jumped over to Whoreseer where I began to verbally fist them, haha.

I loved them times, bet you're all glad I'm quite a cool customer now I'm not threatened by the Stan, haha.


----------



## coke123

gen.ahab said:


> Opposed to forcing people to play multiple kits in order to construct one model.


People just won't use it. Actually, more accurately less people will use it, I guess there are people out there with time and resources for it. If you have to buy several kits at around $50-$100 (Australian, which is $45-$90 US) apiece, and then have to expend time and energy to put it together, that will put people off. Financial cost is a major factor in many people's army selection, not every can throw piles of money at the hobby.

Besides, I seem to remember a quote somewhere on these forums (maybe from Jervis?) saying that GW plans to have a model for everything within the main ruleset. Doesn't make sense to claim this and then make rules for a unit existing in two separate armies, and then not have a model for it.

At any rate, only time will tell.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If GW made all Troop, Fast and Heavy models into plastic I could live with that. Elite and HQ I dont mind so much being metal simply because you can almost always use troop models to make your elites. HQ I can understand being metal though I think its a bit bull that SM gets a plastic HQ box set with loads of options, but Orks get one too with AoBR!! Well, that doesnt count since I have to buy the whole box to get 1 HQ.
-Go buy on ebay noob!
Bah, you just dont get it do you!
-Wha? Get what? What are you talking about?!
Shush you! I keep telling you I will eat my medicine to shut you up if you dont stop talking inside my head!

I think the first step for GW though would be to make all armies Troop selections plastic, simply because you can usually use those models to make everything else your army uses.

Heck, if they made a single plastic SoB model and sold it in those small boxes that would be enough to make every single sister model in the sister army.


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> Besides, I seem to remember a quote somewhere on these forums (maybe from Jervis?) saying that GW plans to have a model for everything within the main ruleset.


I seem to remember that someone said something akin to that at games day germany 09


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> If GW made all Troop, Fast and Heavy models into plastic I could live with that. Elite and HQ I dont mind so much being metal simply because you can almost always use troop models to make your elites. HQ I can understand being metal though I think its a bit bull that SM gets a plastic HQ box set with loads of options, but Orks get one too with AoBR!! Well, that doesnt count since I have to buy the whole box to get 1 HQ.
> -Go buy on ebay noob!
> Bah, you just dont get it do you!
> -Wha? Get what? What are you talking about?!
> Shush you! I keep telling you I will eat my medicine to shut you up if you dont stop talking inside my head!
> 
> I think the first step for GW though would be to make all armies Troop selections plastic, simply because you can usually use those models to make everything else your army uses.
> 
> Heck, if they made a single plastic SoB model and sold it in those small boxes that would be enough to make every single sister model in the sister army.



Did not understand half the shit you said, but it sounded reasonable...


----------



## gen.ahab

GW current stance is that they will make all models, except for special characters, in plastic.


----------



## coke123

As far as GK are concerned, I don't see them getting a plastic HQ. If they keep getting a NFW, storm bolter and Terminator armour as standard (as they currently do) there isn't much need for variation in the kit. Just release a couple of different blisters for the different ranged weapon options, like for the Eldar Autarchs. Of course, if there are drastic changes in the new codex, they might do a plastic one, but I doubt it.


----------



## Vaz

Most likely we'll see TH/SS and Paired LC's, or on the other hand, they'll be left to be created from the Terminator Plastics.

SM have a plastic lord, Chaos Daemon Heralds can be easily created from plastic sets + bitz, Chaos have Termi Lord in plastic, Guard have two plastic Command HQ's, Tau have XV8's, Nids have warriors. 

Out of the "new" armies, Eldar and Orks are the only ones without a plastic set - and that's not to say your couldn't kit bash them out Dire Avengers/Jetbikes or Nobz etc.

Plastic Heroes, I think will be definately a possibility - either as a new box (perhaps Inquisitor, with options a la Empire Wizard), or kitbashable from Plastics.


----------



## Tuatara

What Vaz said and also, while the Terminator models are very nice, I would prefer some new ones simply to add a variety to the GK models. If you don't include the flamer/psycannon GK and the Justicar, you only have three GK poses. There is only so much you can do with that.

Let's hope.


----------



## coke123

And pose them moving! for a combat oriented squad they're really static.


----------



## Vaz

I believe it was said that they were designed that way not for ease, as it's not much harder to make them moving, but so that they truely look like a like stand unit, when surrounded by enemies etc


----------



## Arbite

coke123 said:


> As far as GK are concerned, I don't see them getting a plastic HQ. If they keep getting a NFW, storm bolter and Terminator armour as standard (as they currently do) there isn't much need for variation in the kit. Just release a couple of different blisters for the different ranged weapon options, like for the Eldar Autarchs. Of course, if there are drastic changes in the new codex, they might do a plastic one, but I doubt it.


I'm hoping they don't change the Termi's too much, they're right up near the top of the list of my favourite GW models.


----------



## HOBO

Arbite said:


> I'm hoping they don't change the Termi's too much, they're right up near the top of the list of my favourite GW models.


True, but a chance to add some different poses will be nice.


----------



## gen.ahab

Whatever they do it should look fairly nice. They certainly did a fine job with the WG terminator set.


----------



## hungryugolino

My kingdom for Conversion sets instead of the silly plastic box sets for marine armies. Ala Black Templars and Dark Angels. I just love their bitz.


----------



## Vhalyar

Looks like this is Stickmonkey's final post for now.



Stickmonkey said:


> Just to throw some spice in...
> 
> *The gk models are ornate.*
> 
> I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, *which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release.*
> 
> I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is.* It looks better than I imagined.*
> 
> *Earliest we will have release confirmation for a Jan release will be November. But it could be early dec for the "official" notice.*
> 
> *I am bound by NDA not to reveal hard facts from any upcoming codex now.* So I can give impressions, discuss rumors from elsewhere, or talk about pt information, so long as I don't just come out and say, such and such is definitely in the book...to simplify my restriction dramatically. I've also been given false information in the past specifically for the purpose of keeping truthseekers guessing. Although I was not aware of it at the time. I've said as much in numerous past posts, but I'm repeating all this here for the newcomers to my rumors.
> 
> Also, as I'm working on a new project for a new client now, *I won't have much insight to provide for the remainder of the year beyond maybe info from a chat here or there.* Which given my new timezone, I don't expect much of...
> 
> *So the short of it is, you're pretty much on your own thru the end of the year unless* the closer to production players start getting their info to you. Which I myself am looking forward to...I love seeing how the secret game changes.
> 
> Cheers mates!





Harry said:


> I think the GK models could reasonably be described as *VERY ornate*.


----------



## GrizBe

Shame its his last post probably for a while since Stickmonkey is THE BEST rumour merchant out there.... but at least it confirms a few things I was hoping for:

1. Ornate models. Ever since I hard 'they look better then the Space Hulk term' I was hoping for this. :biggrin:

2. There WILL be a Stormraven kit. And it looks awsome. :biggrin:

3. Jan release date.  I'm happy, but still wish it was earlier.


----------



## rodmillard

Interesting that he has now confirmed that GW were deliberately spreading false rumours at one point (and probably still are). Still, what he has confirmed for GK looks very nice indeed...


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Shame its his last post probably for a while since Stickmonkey is THE BEST rumour merchant out there...


rubbish, :biggrin:
it's harry, I may avoid 'seer like the plague these days but I still know that harry is the best



rodmillard said:


> Interesting that he has now confirmed that GW were deliberately spreading false rumours at one point


I think that was to be expected though given the policy changes in regards to rumours, 
when anyone starts tightening rumour control then "on purpose" false rumours often come into play

George Lucas, Spielberg, the people behind Alias, Lost, Battlestar Galactica & Dr Who have all used false rumour leaks when starting to tighten rumour control


----------



## GrizBe

Bindi Baji said:


> George Lucas, Spielberg, the people behind Alias, Lost, Battlestar Galactica & Dr Who have all used false rumour leaks when starting to tighten rumour control


Apparently with Dr Who, false rumours is how Torchwood came about... 'Torchwood' was the codeword for hiding the tapes when they were filming the first new series, as its an anagram of Doctor Who. When they needed a name for the big secret oragisation monitoring aliens and doing whatever it took to defend earth... what better name then one thas already linked so tightly?

/end usless random fact of the day  


And Harry is good, just stickmonkey seems to find more things relevent to what I like.


----------



## hungryugolino

More to the point, I'm somewhat wary about "more ornate", considering what they did to Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I'm just afraid that I'll have to take to the bitz with a hobby knife to get rid of excess bling.


----------



## boreas

I don't think GKs will suffer from "overcrowding". When in small numbers (like Marneus' Honor guards), it looks awesome. If you have 3 squad of 8 PAGKs, a squad of GKTs, a few vehicles (A SR and a LR), an HQ and 1-2 dreads, you'll have few enough models that it's ok if each is covered in ornaments.

Phil


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> I'm happy, but still wish it was earlier.


This was never going to happen, and to be honest, I'm kind of glad- it give me time to find a job and raise more cash for my GK fund!

Does whoever's the best rumour monger really matter, both stickmonkey and harry deserve a fruit basket or something!


----------



## GrizBe

Not really, but it has been old Stickmonkey giving us the most GK related stuff 

Good point about time to raise more funds...


----------



## DonFer

Shame he's "retiring", I was looking forward for more inside info about GKs. However I'm as happy as a "dog with two tails" with the release date. The first model I'll be buying is the SR! So I guess no christmas presents this year... :victory:


----------



## GrizBe

Thats why I wished it was earlier.. then I could get people to buy it for me. lol


----------



## DonFer

GrizBe said:


> Thats why I wished it was earlier.. then I could get people to buy it for me. lol


My initial plan too, but my wife told me no toys for christmas so it'll have to be a do-it-yourself kinda gift. :laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DonFer said:


> My initial plan too, but my wife told me no toys for christmas so it'll have to be a do-it-yourself kinda gift. :laugh:


I prefer those, means there will be no mistakes and you get what you actually want.

I told the seller you wanted that card game with the power guys that just came out, he told this must be what you wanted 
-Hands over the christmas present
You open it up and staring right at you is Pokemon Tritanitum -The Zelda Chronicles...

Thats when you fall to your knees, raise your hands up into the air and shout
-WWHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> I prefer those, means there will be no mistakes and you get what you actually want.
> 
> I told the seller you wanted that card game with the power guys that just came out, he told this must be what you wanted
> -Hands over the christmas present
> You open it up and staring right at you is Pokemon Tritanitum -The Zelda Chronicles...
> 
> Thats when you fall to your knees, raise your hands up into the air and shout
> -WWHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That actually turns out to be one of my nightmares! :laugh: 

Wife: Here you go Honey, I bought you something special..
Me: Oh really (yes! SR come to papa)
Open up present and it's a Foil Pikachu....
Black cloud forms over my head, starts raining, fall to my knees, raise my hands up and then I shout "Whyyyyy.... take me instead!" :biggrin:


----------



## OIIIIIIO

That is why I cash my checks before I get home ... the wifey only gets what I want her to have. For the most part it is usually all of my check. I am working so much overtime now :angry: that she has no idea what my check should be ... hide the money is a good game.:thank_you: I have a list already that is over $1,300 and I should have that together in about 4 more weeks. I will now have to put extra back for the damn Storm Ravens. :headbutt:


----------



## GrizBe

A little extra on the Storm Raven from Stickmonkey:



Stickmonkey said:


> Karhedron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the bounds of the above, can you give an impression of the SR? Are we thinking "baby thunderhawk", is it something sleeker or is it totally new? Any hints very welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> I draw parallels to something between a "Aliens" drop ship and a imperial lightning. But it's definately got the style of the astartes/imperium. "baby thunderhawk?" Maybe if you squint at it in a dark room...
> 
> Harry's probably right, I and treading close to some lines lately.
> 
> As far as that vehicle upgrade sprue someone else mentioned? I had pretty consistent word of mouth there was a GK tank vehicle coming, as mentioned page 1. I would not count it out, but I wouldn't bet on it being a standalone upgrade sprue ala the ork deffrolla.
Click to expand...


Soo... something like an Alien Dropship crossed with an Imperial Lightning ?

Sounds interesting... I'm guessing the GK tank vehicle is something Psycannon and incineratory...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Badass! I love Aliens. The dropships were cool.


----------



## HOBO

Just wondering...are BA players using a Storm Raven in their lists? Obviously there's no model but is it getting good reviews as far as it been a decent unit?

I'll be extremely happy if it's not just a 'mini TH'..curvy will be great.


----------



## GrizBe

From what I hear its a pretty useful unit, but like most big things can be a bit of a bullet magnet.

Looking through the army lists on the board, theres a few BA lists using one and several with 2.


----------



## HOBO

Cool..I just did a quick search and I agree. I think that by the time a GK list includes 1 or 2 of the Storm Ravens, plus Dreads and/or a Tank, plus a HQ and GKT's and the rest been GK's we'll be looking at 3K before we know it.

Something will have to give, possibly going with the IST's..time will tell.


----------



## GrizBe

I still hope the IST are in... Especially if that rumoured exo-walker thing is theres. I just want to get a squad of them so I can paint them white, just for kicks. :biggrin:


----------



## HOBO

I forgot about the exo-suits. There will likely be so many good units it will be hard to choose..I'll end up having to buy them all:biggrin:, and have a 5K Apoc force.


----------



## mahavira

Exo suits are only good if you can find some tree hugging preindustrial aliens to kill with them...

Given that stickmonkey has stated that he is aware of specific disinformation that's been spread, one wonders if it's worth trying to sift out some of it. The release order between Dark Eldar and GK/whatever looks very suspicious: BitsandKits posted on the DE thread that he only just had DE removed from the list of things to order, and reminded all that GK and Sisters have been off his list for months. This would also go along with GK and SoB boxed sets being removed from the website over the last several months and the removal of the codices <the release of the codices on pdf was such a botch job I decline to draw any conclusions other than that the guy who does the daily blog on the website didn't follow his own link before saying the files were 'full of fluff'>. If any new army is coming out November, they're leaving it really late to announce and remove obsolete stock (if November is DE, anyone who bought a DE codex since July is going to be seriously pissed, for example). A second wave of something (perhaps skaven to follow up the high elves in october, given the whole isle of blood thing) might be more logical (yes yes I know attempting to project earthly logic on the marketing decisions of GW is fruitless to the point of heresy) at this stage, or a special model like the Stormraven.

Final question: could not a remodelled penitent engine pass as an exo suit? Or at least be close enough that it could be a combined kit (or easy conversion, more likely).


----------



## Vhalyar

mahavira said:


> The release order between Dark Eldar and GK/whatever looks very suspicious


Not really, especially since people like Harry have put their neck on it being DE next.


----------



## Necrosis

Vhalyar said:


> Not really, especially since people like Harry have put their neck on it being DE next.


Just cause Harry says it will come out doesn't mean it will. Remember it's possible that Harry might be wrong. I'm just saying.


----------



## Vhalyar

Necrosis said:


> Just cause Harry says it will come out doesn't mean it will. Remember it's possible that Harry might be wrong. I'm just saying.


That's not what I meant. I'm saying that there's nothing really suspicious like he implied about what we believe is the release schedule.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Final question: could not a remodelled penitent engine pass as an exo suit? Or at least be close enough that it could be a combined kit (or easy conversion, more likely).


I have drawn this parallel as well, if you look at the rumours section you will see Ive posted pics of the Penitent next to the Matrix APU which has been said to be similar to the walker. They do look alike, this gave me the impression maybe sisters would be in the codex as well but this has been shot down.

However it could mean a new line of walkers from GW, starting with GK and most likely Ecclesiarchy getting to use the kit first.

From what I have heard allot of BA players dont use the SR because its too expensive for what it does. One does have to keep in mind that everything in the BA codex is FAST so the benefits might not be so obvious to the BA.
To the GK on the other hand the utility it will offer might be allot greater.
Getting your Dreads and some Termies into assault fast might be worth the cost of the SR.
I know I will be using atleast 1 and buying atleast 2 kits.


----------



## mahavira

Vhalyar said:


> That's not what I meant. I'm saying that there's nothing really suspicious like he implied about what we believe is the release schedule.


Just to clarify, all I meant was that the rumors and the observable evidence, such as it is, don't match up. When this happens, I am inclined to give more weight to the evidence than to the word of a tipster, however highly regarded.


----------



## boreas

I must say I find the Dude's affirmation on Warseer DE rumor round-up pretty arrogant (according to him: "DE are coming in Novembre, November, NOVEMBER"). I still find it weird that for such a "firm" schedule we have no words 2 months in advance. 

Phil


----------



## DonFer

HOBO said:


> Just wondering...are BA players using a Storm Raven in their lists? Obviously there's no model but is it getting good reviews as far as it been a decent unit?
> 
> I'll be extremely happy if it's not just a 'mini TH'..curvy will be great.


Excelent question, I also would like to know what are the impressions about the SR. For what I read last night after I picked up a copy of BA Codex (I couldn't help it :biggrin it can also carry one tank and/or a Dread which makes it pretty damn useful! Come to think of it, kinda like the Alien Dropship... cool!


----------



## Creon

The storm raven can carry exactly what a Land Raider can carry (12 spots) plus a DN suit. My blood Angel army used 1-2 of them regularly. They die quickly usually, but get the Clawnaught and nasty assault squad where they need to be. Worth 5/6 of a land raider? Probably. The armor all around is nice.


----------



## GrizBe

I think, as always with the big units, the Storm Raven's usefullness will depend on what your up against. As pointed out, its primary job is getting your units in hard and fast.. If its a bullet magent after that, it meants its doing its job as it allows your troops to get n their and assault whats shooting at them.

I'll defiantely be buy at least one


----------



## DonFer

I agree, most people will be shooting at them just because they'll look "bad ass" so better destroy them before having a taste of their fire power. I'm not sure I read it too but I think the SR also packs a lot of punch (correct me if I'm worng). 

Damn! I hate this urge to get one or two of these models asap...:headbutt:


----------



## GrizBe

Definatley pack a punch with 4 str8, AP 1 missles, twin linked heavy bolters and twin linked asault cannons as its basic armament, if its the same as the BA codex one. 

With being able to add hurricane bolter sponsons, or switching things out for melta's and lascannons, Its defiantely got the potential to be a threat to troops or vehicles.. and I could see a GK verison getting the psycannon and incinerator options...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The LR Redeemer can have Flamestorm Incinerators, what exactly are those?
I have tried finding the rules for them in the IA books but cant find it.
I know Incinerators ignore Inv and Cover, but what does the Flamestorm part of the weapon do? Is it like the IG Inferno Cannon where you get to place the template up to 24" from your gun?
Could someone tell me in what IA book the rules for this weapon are as I cant find them.


Damn those Blood Angels stealing the Exorcist missiles and renaming them...


----------



## Creon

Flamestorm Cannons are STR:6, AP:3. If they are also Incinerators, they ignore invulnerable saves in addition to ignoring cover and high STR/AP. Very Nasty for MEQ.


----------



## Baron Spikey

So basically if you have anything less than a Save of 2+ you're screwed, especially T3 models who suffer Instant Death with no chance of any type of save.


----------



## Creon

I would say a Flamestorm Incinerator would be what the Seer Council sees as "Flaming melty death!"


----------



## Baron Spikey

Suddenly Thunderwolves, Nob Bikers, and Blood Crushers (all Daemons in fact) have something to fear if a couple of these things douse the unit. 
Of course TH/SS Terminators can still march through the flames mainly unperturbed...I want a GK force :biggrin:


----------



## Doelago

Creon said:


> I would say a Flamestorm Incinerator would be what the Seer Council sees as "Flaming melty death!"


:laugh: No shit!


----------



## HOBO

DonFer said:


> Excelent question, I also would like to know what are the impressions about the SR. For what I read last night after I picked up a copy of BA Codex (I couldn't help it :biggrin it can also carry one tank and/or a Dread which makes it pretty damn useful! Come to think of it, kinda like the Alien Dropship... cool!


Yea, if the SR is as good as we hope then LR's might not be required (as transports anyway), and if we end up with other ways to get AT weapons (long range or otherwise) into the list then I can see an army of 
GM & Retinue
more GKT (cuz I luvz them)
GK 
Exo-suits/Dreads
SR's

as a base for pure GK, then depending on how this 'fodder' unit pans out, and if we get other transport options like a Psycannon RBack for them..I'll be damn happy :biggrin:


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Would be interesting if the SR was a dedicated transport for the GK army.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Damn those Blood Angels stealing the Exorcist missiles and renaming them...


That's exactly what I thought reading that.

Actually, what I thought was 'Ah, the last thing my army does better than others is gone, figures...'


----------



## gen.ahab

Flamestorm.... Incin... RUN! Run for your lives you fool!


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> That's exactly what I thought reading that.
> 
> Actually, what I thought was 'Ah, the last thing my army does better than others is gone, figures...'


Now now, we have to be at least tied for 'most units not actually under your control', and if we aren't strong contenders for 'least cost-effective HQ' then there are some truly dismal choices out there. And nobody resists minor psychic powers like we do (of course, nobody else believes they exist...). 3 have 3 separate units with random numbers of attacks too, that's got to be near the top. More seriously, Seraphim hit and run is the best I've seen, though there are codices I am not familliar with.


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> I still hope the IST are in... Especially if that rumoured exo-walker thing is theres. I just want to get a squad of them so I can paint them white, just for kicks. :biggrin:


New psychic power for Inquisitors- Force Choke!


----------



## Necrosis

gen.ahab said:


> Flamestorm.... Incin... RUN! Run for your lives you fool!


If you thought the Flamestorm Incinerator was bad just wait till you get attack by the passengers who are striking at Initiative freaking 10!


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> Now now, we have to be at least tied for 'most units not actually under your control', and if we aren't strong contenders for 'least cost-effective HQ' then there are some truly dismal choices out there. And nobody resists minor psychic powers like we do (of course, nobody else believes they exist...). 3 have 3 separate units with random numbers of attacks too, that's got to be near the top. More seriously, Seraphim hit and run is the best I've seen, though there are codices I am not familliar with.


Hit and Run is nice, no doubt about that, but for their points cost, Seraphim are at best a mediocre unit.

However, your point still stands, it's a toss up between us and Dark Eldar as to which Codex has the greater proportion of worthless units. That's why I shall be very carefully examining the new DE 'dex, seeking auguries of the future.


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. That gives me a new list idea that does SOMETHING that no other army can do...

*Shandathe's Randomly Effectives!*

HQ: 
Canoness

Elites:
Celestian Squad w/Priest in Rhino
2 Squads of Arco-Flagellants

Heavy Support:
Mix of Exorcists and Penitent Engine squadron(s)


Lots of things that may or may not work if it even survives to make contact... Filling remaining slots with something that might actually be effective...


----------



## Azezel

You forgot Repentia...


----------



## Shandathe

No, those suck reliably. That list has every unit with 1d6 attacks in it 

... though I guess the 1d6 movement counts...


----------



## Winterous

Shandathe said:


> No, those suck reliably. That list has every unit with 1d6 attacks in it
> 
> ... though I guess the 1d6 movement counts...


Oh yeah?
Chaos Spawn.
Beasts of Chaos.
Daemonhosts.

And much much more!


----------



## equitypetey

Necrosis said:


> If you thought the Flamestorm Incinerator was bad just wait till you get attack by the passengers who are striking at Initiative freaking 10!


it is pretty nasty, the peeps i play with let me use it and it is fairly effective at turning things in to gooey messes then when it gets popped the contents come flying out angry at whatever just stuck a melta grenade to their lovely tank. 

i hope so very much it is in the new codex with the rules it has currently


----------



## Azezel

They may have a consistant number of attacks, but they don't follow orders.


----------



## Shandathe

Thing is, they're not so much randomly effective as they're guaranteed not be effective... I've yet to get a Repentia Squad to kill it's cost, having tried far more often than I honestly should have. You wouldn't think it'd be that hard given what they'd theoretically do if they ever actually managed to catch a Land Raider or a couple of tanks. If only they had Feel No Pain instead of an armour save and a couple points shaved off them... 

They excel at drawing fire and attracting melee squads though, which is worth something I guess...


----------



## mahavira

The fact that you don't control them about half the time doesn't help (and unlike with Tyranids, having your squad sargeant alive makes the problem worse rather than better). Theoretically they should be excellent for kamikaze attacking terminators with power fists or thunder hammers, meganobs, tau battlesuits and the like. Practically they never get there or have to charge some ridiculously inappropriate target like Ork boyz with shoota and choppa and a 6+ save. They ought to be awesome against necrons - wound most things on a 2 and negate not only the armor save but I'll be back (though to be fair having to boast about being better than necrons at close combat is condemnation in itself). If you have a priest at all, you may as well put him with the Repentia - making sure those few attacks that finally happen actually hit is one of the few worthwhile things he can achieve.

If we're going to wishlist about repentia, feel no pain, fleet of foot, and if they are going to keep making them uncontrollable some of the time, make it only if the mistress dies, since pointing them in the right direction is theoretically her job. Unless SoB get an open topped transport, I don't know that being able to put them into Rhinos really helps much.

However, back to your random list, you need an allied daemonhunter HQ (without mystics, or you might be effective or something) so you can take daemonhosts - I think that's all the random stuff you can have in one army (the rest are all incompatible alas).


----------



## oblivion8

> Shandathe's Randomly Effectives!
> 
> HQ:
> Canoness
> 
> Elites:
> Celestian Squad w/Priest in Rhino
> 2 Squads of Arco-Flagellants
> 
> Heavy Support:
> Mix of Exorcists and Penitent Engine squadron(s)
> 
> 
> Lots of things that may or may not work if it even survives to make contact... Filling remaining slots with something that might actually be effective...


well according to the designers of the book, it would be really "cool" if you filled your troops with inq storm troopers. BUT WAIT!
Dont just field the regular guys, apparently you should try out adeptus arbites and take away all their targeters and hellguns, giving them instead......
SHOTGUNS AT NO EXTRA COST!

considering the armies style I think 30-100 storm troopers would fit right in. :biggrin:


----------



## hungryugolino

Bah, at least you HAVE the arbitrator option. I thought that was a neat touch, even if no sane player would do it. At least not on a regular basis.


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> If we're going to wishlist about repentia, feel no pain, fleet of foot, and if they are going to keep making them uncontrollable some of the time, make it only if the mistress dies, since pointing them in the right direction is theoretically her job. Unless SoB get an open topped transport, I don't know that being able to put them into Rhinos really helps much.


FNP and Fleet seem like no-brainers, but in addition to that, I'd give them Scout and Infiltrate.

By the fluff, as a Sororitas army approaches the battlefield the first wave is a mob of wild-eyed Repentia tear-arseing into the enemy lines to disaray and break them up.

Given our weakness to long-ranges fire and alpha strikes, a unit of scouting/infiltrating Repentia would be a real boon. I don't care who you are, you're going to shoot them first.


----------



## gen.ahab

Was anything said at gamesday?


----------



## GrizBe

Its not Games Day UK until the 26th. Hopefully we'll get more then.


----------



## gen.ahab

Thought it was the 9th. Lol a bit off I suppose.


----------



## GrizBe

A Bit more from Stickmonkey:



Stickmonkey said:


> I'd personally be surprised to have a codex with all of GWs flyers in it...but perhaps not so much if they were a or choice...gk w sr...or ]I[ w Valks.
> 
> No SoB in this book. That rumor needs to stop.
> 
> I may just make myself some gk jet bikes and count as...I really liked the concept art...
> 
> Although SD has some things correct, my sources still confirm NFW is streamlined not to have to refer to a chart for special powers based on who's holding it.


Spectral Dragon (SD) has pretty much been spouting off what Stickmonkey has already confirmed and trying to pass it off as his own, along with a bunch of crap that has been smacked down by Harry and SM such as 'There will be no stormraven kit'. Pretty much anything SD says that Stickmonkey hasn't already confirmed you can take as not being worth the coding its made of.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive decided not to post anything Spectral Dragon says simply because all he says has already been said by others and what else he has to say gets shot down by more reliable sources. Thats why I have only put his stuff in posts here rather than in the rumours section.


----------



## GrizBe

I completely agree with you, reading back over all of Spectral Dragons 'rumours' they've had so many holes poked in them you wonder why anyone listens to him at all.... just shows the idiocy over at Warseer that some people believe him there.

Still, nice to have a solid confirmation from Stickmonkey of no SoB's yet *Epic frown for SoB' fans * and that NFW is being streamlined.

Though hopefully SoB's will be here by mid next year according to Sticckmonkey:



Stickmonkey said:


> While new SoB models are coming...see my other posts...my best guess based on how far apart GK and SoB were is 6-8 Mo. If non-game rumors are to be believed, the SoB molds have been problematic...as also reiterated above. However, looking at the fiddley details in the IoB elves and skaven, and knowing thats a "starter" "snap-together" set...i dont buy it. Their plastic techniques are leaps and bounds over what they once were.


And from Harry, which should please some people:


Harry said:


> Let me see if I can help a bit.
> 
> Sisters of Battle are being done. (Including plastic sisters .... obviously!)
> I first heard the project was started over 12 months ago.
> If that is correct they are more than 12 months into the project.
> Given lead times of 18 months on the plastics by now most of the sculpting for the plastics should be done (not just the sisters) and the first kits will already be finished.
> When they make plastics they make a few which come back to the sculptors to be 'checked' and given the OK before they start making gazillions (I can't think exactly what they call this off the top of my head). But they are looking for any little bits and bobs that need sharpening up, stuff they are not happy with or didn't come out exactly as they should have ... so they can go back and fiddle things a bit. (to ensure we get the best possible final version).
> So this has almost certainly happened with some of the plastics for sisters by now.
> But the existence (or not) of a little something the sculptor wants to change or tidy up a bit is not a problem. it is just a normal part of the design process. (a normal part of producing the world best toy soldiers).
> It is no more an issue than correcting a spelling mistake or changing a word to increase clarity when proof reading a book.
> 
> "Delays" are often NOT delays. Things get made then sit around the studio for months sometimes years. (If you look back at the rumours articles in the Watchman from a couple of years ago I was talking about the completed Clan rats that have only recently seen release). Stuff is not delayed it is waiting. Waiting for more stuff to be made to go with them to make a decent release, sometimes waiting for a release window when they will not be competing for sales with too much other stuff. So not delayed just not released yet.
> 
> The point is that just because something exists and isn't released (sometimes for a while) does not mean there is a problem with it.
> 
> Hope that helps a bit.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some new Imperial Assassin rumours have surfaced. They seem allot better than they are currently if these stats are true. Still a bit squishy but deadlier 


Bigred said:


> So this statline has been floating about, and said to be baseline stats for Imperial Assassins.
> 
> I would assume they would be arriving with the Q1 Grey Knight codex.
> 
> *WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:7 A:4 Ld:10 SV:4+/4+i*
> 
> Move thru cover
> Fleet
> Fearless
> 
> Thats quite the upgrade from what we have now, and is taking into account the new high BS rules from the 5th rulebook. I would assume that once dressed up with the various Assassin Clade special rules and equipment these folks would be quite nasty.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

That is odd I was expecting the infiltrate and stealth rules for assasins. It makes sense based on their job of wetwork and secrecy.


----------



## GrizBe

Just thinking that myself... but as said, that seems to be a baseline assasin rather then a particular clan of them. I'd expect at least some sort of stealth or infiltrate rule too. As is, they seem too much of a rush in suicide unit rather then an assasin. Probably works for death cult assasins though.


----------



## Kettu

Harry's comment was probably in relation to my (should be top of page) comments over the suggestion that Sisters don't/can't work as plastic minis due to their robes.

As for the Assassin rumours, making them killy is one thing but there is a delicate balance act between killy and points or else they'll be far to expensive to ever even consider worth fielding or too crap to be worth it.

WS 8 BS 8 is fun and all but we'd have to pay points for that and anything after 5 is more or less useless. (And don't sniper rifles *not* need BS and always hit on 2+ or did they change that?)


----------



## Stephen_Newman

My pathfinders would LOVE hitting on 2's. Sadly they cannot. The assassin seems too to me since without infiltrate or stealth I doubt there ability to get into combat with the chosen target.


----------



## oblivion8

> anything after 5 is more or less useless.


for BS I agree, but I would say WS 6 would be the baseline of "anything higher"

not that its.... relevant...
Bout time assassins got better, but I think a 3++ would be more appropriate, even if it was to replace a armour save (assasins dont ear heavy armour after all).


----------



## Vhalyar

Stephen_Newman said:


> My pathfinders would LOVE hitting on 2's. Sadly they cannot. The assassin seems too to me since without infiltrate or stealth I doubt there ability to get into combat with the chosen target.


Huh, Bigred addresses that in the same post :/



> I would assume that once *dressed up with the various Assassin Clade special rules and equipment* these folks would be quite nasty.


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

I still eagerly await the new release for *SoB*, and until then I will be happy to await them.


----------



## Azezel

Harry said:


> Sisters of Battle are being done. (Including plastic sisters .... obviously!)
> I first heard the project was started over 12 months ago.
> If that is correct they are more than 12 months into the project.
> Given lead times of 18 months on the plastics by now most of the sculpting for the plastics should be done (not just the sisters) and the first kits will already be finished.
> When they make plastics they make a few which come back to the sculptors to be 'checked' and given the OK before they start making gazillions (I can't think exactly what they call this off the top of my head). But they are looking for any little bits and bobs that need sharpening up, stuff they are not happy with or didn't come out exactly as they should have ... so they can go back and fiddle things a bit. (to ensure we get the best possible final version).
> So this has almost certainly happened with some of the plastics for sisters by now.
> But the existence (or not) of a little something the sculptor wants to change or tidy up a bit is not a problem. it is just a normal part of the design process. (a normal part of producing the world best toy soldiers).
> It is no more an issue than correcting a spelling mistake or changing a word to increase clarity when proof reading a book.


Hang on a tick... Don't plastic molds cost tens of thousands of pounds?

Do they drop £50k quid on one of these things, run off a few sprues only to have one of the sculptors say 'actually, maybe we shouldn't put a scope on the flamer' and then have to drop another £50k on a new mold?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen (it would explain the price) but, well, am I missing something here?

In any event, it's nice to hear something about SoB.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

Azezel said:


> Hang on a tick... Don't plastic molds cost tens of thousands of pounds?
> 
> Do they drop £50k quid on one of these things, run off a few sprues only to have one of the sculptors say 'actually, maybe we shouldn't put a scope on the flamer' and then have to drop another £50k on a new mold?
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't happen (it would explain the price) but, well, am I missing something here?


Well GW do have the ability to amend exisiting plastic tooling as happened when they re-released the epic plastics with Armageddon (many moons ago)

Fixed quotation code error


----------



## GrizBe

I'd think they'd probably make something out of a cheaper material that would only last a couple of dozen times before making a master mould of any kind...

That and metal tooling would be quite cheap... you'd have a programable lathe to cut out the design, then any tweaks you'd just have to tweak the model in the program and recarve it.


----------



## boreas

> 'actually, maybe we shouldn't put a scope on the flamer'


I just loved that one... I'll have to model that 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

oblivion8 said:


> for BS I agree.


Well, it is rumoured that the Vindicare gets BS10 with his Exodus rifle, this makes his sniper rifle pretty much twin linked since he gets to re roll misses.

So hitting on 2s and re roll misses, this pretty much guarantees a hit, and wounding on 2s have also been rumoured. This would mean he hits and kills allot more than he does currently. He might actually kill 5 models a game rather than 1-2 as he does currently.




Kettu said:


> WS 8 BS 8 is fun and all but we'd have to pay points for that and anything after 5 is more or less useless. (And don't sniper rifles *not* need BS and always hit on 2+ or did they change that?)


This is the way it used to be but in 5ed its based on your BS. So scouts and snipers hit on 4s, Ratlings on 3s and Vindicare on 2s like he used to.
So if the rumoured stats are true he pretty much gets a twin linked sniper rifle. HUGE boost to what he currently does.


----------



## gen.ahab

What will be the AP of the weapon?


----------



## Necrosis

gen.ahab said:


> What will be the AP of the weapon?


Well it currently is ap 2 and it will probably stay that way. If it does change it will become either ap 1 or ap 3.


----------



## Baron Spikey

But he'll probably lose his _Marksman_ rule, or it'll be changed beyond recognition, actually maknig him less fearsome than he is right now.


----------



## mahavira

I don't actually see why they'd change the marksman rule. GW designers don't appear to have anything against the ability to target a specific model in principle - there are quite a lot of them in Warhammer 8E, their most recent rule set. It would be hard to call him an assassin if he couldn't pick his targets, and virtually impossible to be worth his points unless you're fighting an army with a very high average model cost, because that 5-6 models you kill will be standard troops rather than heavy weapon operators, sargeants, etc..


----------



## boreas

Well, assassins could be very powerful for 100-ish points (imagine "Doom-of-Malanthai", which I've seen destroy 450pts of eldars in one turn). It would be nice if there was a fluff obligation at taking them (as there is now with the need for an =I=). For 100pts, a sniper that can hit on a re-rollable 2+, wound on a 4+ and has an AP2 gun would be ok. But if he could, every turn, choose between doing 2 wounds, ignore cover save or roll 3d6 for penetration (no strenght) and he's getting pretty good. Now have his mask ignore cover save and he's excellent (reliably dropping 2-3 termies, nobz bikers or oblits per game, say). But then, I'm wishlisting!

Phil


----------



## Baron Spikey

mahavira said:


> I don't actually see why they'd change the marksman rule. GW designers don't appear to have anything against the ability to target a specific model in principle - there are quite a lot of them in Warhammer 8E, their most recent rule set. It would be hard to call him an assassin if he couldn't pick his targets, and virtually impossible to be worth his points unless you're fighting an army with a very high average model cost, because that 5-6 models you kill will be standard troops rather than heavy weapon operators, sargeants, etc..


Ah but the Vindicare's current rule is far more wide sweeping than that- he can kill models in combat, his own troops the only restrictions are that the 'victim' has to be in Line of Sight and Range.


----------



## Shandathe

boreas said:


> For 100pts, a sniper that can hit on a re-rollable 2+, wound on a 4+ and has an AP2 gun would be ok. But if he could, every turn, choose between doing 2 wounds, ignore cover save or roll 3d6 for penetration (no strenght) and he's getting pretty good. Now have his mask ignore cover save and he's excellent (reliably dropping 2-3 termies, nobz bikers or oblits per game, say). But then, I'm wishlisting!


Uhrr... Boreas, your standards for excellence may suffered from a long lack of new codex. Dropping 2-3 termies is the removal of 80-120 points, which doesn't account for them staying in a LR or the Assassin getting gibbed. May kill a few more points if you can target individuals with heavy weapons, and you may shift the tide somewhere, but unlike the Doom you mentioned there's a decided cap on how much your 100ish point assassin can kill, even if he lives through the entire game.


----------



## boreas

Well, I personnally find the Doom too strong for its points. I forgot about the sniper rule: if the vindicare can choose wich model, it's much more worth it. I mentionned reliably killing a few termi/oblits/etc. But every once in a while you'll drop that 150pts HQ or nobz with powerclaw that truly menaces your 8-men GK units (the rest of the mod being rather useless). I wouldn't want the assassins to become "must have units". A vindicare that would essentially pick one model per turn and remove it would be no fun  

I'm really curious about the other clades. A truly terrifying Eversor would be cool. Heck, they would all be cool!

Phil

ps. Yes my stardard are pretty low


----------



## mahavira

Didn't realize he could target his own troops. My priest problem may just have been solved...

The Vindicare only used to be able to use each special round 1/game. Changing that alone is getting pretty dangerous. Of course, 105 points will get you a predator tank with twin linked lascannon, so how much is too much for a given point cost is difficult to really judge.

As to the 'fluff requirements', I for one hope not to see them again. At most, "if you have X then Y is an alternate Force Allocation Chart slot" would be ok, but the current setup is maddening (to be fair there is a convergence of issues that make it irritating, from minimum squad sizes, Rhino transport capacity, mandatory retinues, unit compatibility etc.). If Repressors have a capacity of 12 that alone solves a variety of issues (or regular sister squads having a lower minimum size).


----------



## Azezel

boreas said:


> I just loved that one... I'll have to model that
> 
> Phil


I'm afraid that GW beat you to it. Current Sisters of Battle flamers _do_ have telescopic sights.

Which is a source of much hilarity amongst SoB players.


----------



## boreas

I'm no weapon specialist, but I really don't see any on my models!?

Phil


----------



## Shandathe

They're on the left of the barrel, stuck between the Sister and the Flamer itself - which is why you can't see them on the pictures on the GW site, as those have the right side of the barrel in front (You can just BARELY see it on Battle Sister with Flamer 1). They're one of those nice small details you can't make out that well until the model is fully painted up... I only discovered it while painting myself  The Sisters have a lot of those, really. I may not be happy there aren't new ones out yet, but the old ones are still wonderful.


----------



## boreas

Oooh That's what that lens on the side is... Haha, I'd never though about it, really! I'll still have to model a very obvious one on top!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> As to the 'fluff requirements', I for one hope not to see them again. At most, "if you have X then Y is an alternate Force Allocation Chart slot" would be ok, but the current setup is maddening (to be fair there is a convergence of issues that make it irritating, from minimum squad sizes, Rhino transport capacity, mandatory retinues, unit compatibility etc.). If Repressors have a capacity of 12 that alone solves a variety of issues (or regular sister squads having a lower minimum size).


If I remember correctly one of the early statements by either Stickmonkey or Harry was that Assassins would not be fieldable together with GK.
This leads me to believe you can either have a GK force or and Inquisitorial force. Well, its pretty obvious this is the way it would be if the above rule was true :crazy:


----------



## Amoeba Bait

I'm sorry but how is BS 8 even possible? Please clarify.

Doesnt BS 6 hit on a 1+????


----------



## Katie Drake

Amoeba Bait said:


> I'm sorry but how is BS 8 even possible? Please clarify.
> 
> Doesnt BS 6 hit on a 1+????


Main rulebook covers this. A model with BS6 for example hits on a roll of 2+. If they fail, they can roll again. If this second roll is a 6 then the shot hits.


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> If I remember correctly one of the early statements by either Stickmonkey or Harry was that Assassins would not be fieldable together with GK.
> This leads me to believe you can either have a GK force or and Inquisitorial force. Well, its pretty obvious this is the way it would be if the above rule was true :crazy:


If you can't have assassins with GK, information about assassins would suggest that whatever you can take assassins with is due out pretty soon also - or one of the above rumors is wrong.

Btw, was there not a rumor a while back that the assassins as we currently know them were going away and there was going to be a base assassin for which you buy extra abilities?


----------



## Katie Drake

mahavira said:


> Btw, was there not a rumor a while back that the assassins as we currently know them were going away and there was going to be a base assassin for which you buy extra abilities?


Yeah, I remember this. Sounds like a good idea to be honest. Lets people represent whatever kind of Assassin they want, even one of the ones from _Nemesis_ that have no rules for the time being.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

boreas said:


> I just loved that one... I'll have to model that
> 
> Phil


Maybe it's a heartbeat sensor?


----------



## Winterous

Purge the Heretic said:


> Maybe it's a heartbeat sensor?


Clearly it's a laser sight.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

To aim a flamer?!?!?!


----------



## Purge the Heretic

To make sure the pulsating nurgle thing is really dead.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> To make sure the pulsating nurgle thing is really dead.



When it comes to Nurgle Id chose this option​






Amoeba Bait said:


> I'm sorry but how is BS 8 even possible? Please clarify.
> 
> Doesnt BS 6 hit on a 1+????





> Main rulebook covers this. A model with BS6 for example hits on a roll of 2+. If they fail, they can roll again. If this second roll is a 6 then the shot hits.


For those that still dont understand it basically starts over once you hit BS6.
So BS1-5 = 6-2 on D6 to hit, BS6-10 = 2+ with 6-2Reroll if you miss.

So an Assassin with BS 8 would have a 2+ to hit, if he rolls a 1 he gets to reroll and on a 4+ he hits. With the rumoured Exodus rifle giving BS10 this means 2+ to hit with 2+reroll = Twin Linked sniper rifle.


----------



## Ikbuh

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12800005a

Looks to me like Dark Eldar or officially next.


----------



## DonFer

Now worries, this implies two things, rumours where right about DE and GKs are next. So Gentelmen start saving those penies for Q1 2011!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I find it odd DE will feature in Novembers Issue of WD, from what rumours say they will be released in November? Then again maybe GW will go for a late Nov release just in time for early christmas shopping?

If you are expecting to see anything in next weeks WD you will be disappointed since all you will get is that teaser picture at the back showing that well known picture rumoured to be the DE codex cover even though its a few years old.


----------



## bitsandkits

MadCowCrazy said:


> I find it odd DE will feature in Novembers Issue of WD, from what rumours say they will be released in November? Then again maybe GW will go for a late Nov release just in time for early christmas shopping?
> 
> If you are expecting to see anything in next weeks WD you will be disappointed since all you will get is that teaser picture at the back showing that well known picture rumoured to be the DE codex cover even though its a few years old.


November issue of WD comes out mid october, two weeks before the november 6th release date. GK i think will be February, possibly tomb kings in jan


----------



## Shandathe

I'm happy for the DE, but speaking as an SoB player who realizes B&K's most likely correct schedule means we'll easily get to a year of no troop models.... do I go AAAAARGH now or wait for Talk Like a Pirate Day?


----------



## Vhalyar

bitsandkits said:


> November issue of WD comes out mid october, two weeks before the november 6th release date. GK i think will be February, possibly tomb kings in jan


I thought you were utterly convinced that it was GK first and DE later :/
Now then, I wonder if anything will be said about GKs at Gamesday. If anything, with DE out of the way Harry will be more forthcoming; he said he was avoiding GK rumors until DE were out.


----------



## fynn

@MCC its the october issue there in, according to the artical.
as a sidenote, i love the nice and simple card folding tower pic that was sent in (at bottom of news page), and the guys gona get a proper kit for sending it in, damm wish i had thought of that.........lol


----------



## Fire Lord

fynn said:


> as a sidenote, i love the nice and simple card folding tower pic that was sent in (at bottom of news page), and the guys gona get a proper kit for sending it in, damm wish i had thought of that.........lol


Yeah, that was pretty funny.:laugh:


----------



## mahavira

Vhalyar said:


> I thought you were utterly convinced that it was GK first and DE later :/
> Now then, I wonder if anything will be said about GKs at Gamesday. If anything, with DE out of the way Harry will be more forthcoming; he said he was avoiding GK rumors until DE were out.


I'm glad I'm not an independent retailer who made an August order for DE stuff. I really would love to know why independent retailers lost the ability to order DH/WH months before DE, but DE is coming out first. If it was just availability, the stuff that's still available would presumably have been on the order list rather than the entire line being pulled.

Ah well, if anyone deserves to go ahead of the inquisition armies it's DE, given that their models range from ugly to repulsive (and not in a good way).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Emperor Works in Strange Ways


----------



## Azezel

Can't nobody say DE don't deserve he next update - but yes, the way GW have been acting these last nine months is weird.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Maybe it is all to keep us on the back foot?


----------



## DonFer

Hahaha I can imagine those GW guys laughing at us right now: "Buaaahhahahaha our mindless/sensless strategy is finally giving results! They are going crazy! Next year 6th Ed!! Muaaahhahahaaa Muahahahahaha HAHAHAHAH!"


----------



## coke123

DonFer said:


> Hahaha I can imagine those GW guys laughing at us right now: "Buaaahhahahaha our mindless/sensless strategy is finally giving results! They are going crazy! Next year 6th Ed!! Muaaahhahahaaa Muahahahahaha HAHAHAHAH!"


But they do this 007 Villain style - stroking a white cat whilst on an upmarket swivelling office chair on an artificial island surrounded by sharks with laserbeams on their heads, in their moonbase. I've always naturally assumed GW has a moonbase.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> I've always naturally assumed GW has a moonbase.


That explains it because GWs marketing strategy is OUT OF THIS WORLD!!

See what I did there...tihii hii


----------



## Catpain Rich

MadCowCrazy said:


> That explains it because GWs marketing strategy is OUT OF THIS WORLD!!
> 
> See what I did there...tihii hii


If all of china facepalms at the same time, will the earth move? :biggrin:


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Can't nobody say DE don't deserve he next update - but yes, the way GW have been acting these last nine months is weird.


More than 9 months if you count DH/WH not being in planetstrike, though Battle Missions was probably the cruellest cut. Why they pulled so much from the WH line already if GK are being released a) separately and b) first would also be a fascinating question (though to be fair, the GK in power armor kit represented most of the DH line).


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

I honestly think the biggest reason for the lack of update for the *DH/WH* is because of money. They seem like an army that is not played as often or purchased as often as say Space Marines, or Orks.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to start off with Witch Hunters but due to the impending "codex/model" update. I ended up switching to Space Wolves (I had planned to play them as a secondary army anyway), perhaps if overall *DH/WH* got more support.

Now the combined codex in my opinion does make some sense, budget wise and can allow for increase in strategy. The codex would be huge, I mean let's be honest the Inquisition is a massive part of the Warhammer 40K world, and is taken quite seriously. I know there is more than enough room in 40K franchise to fit the Inquisition, a bridge between, the Alien, the Monster and the Heretics. 

But those are my two cents.


----------



## mahavira

Well, yes, obviously the money issue is big, the enormous startup cost (all metal troops, brothers and sisters!) is a bit of a obstacle. But when the codex, at the time it was written, is kind of talked down within it's own covers (pure witch hunter and daemonhunter army lists are referred to 'characterful', the wargame equivalent of being miss congeniality) there's more than money problems.

Oh, and welcome combined codex comrade! Don't mind the wrathful purists who are about to flame you.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Well, yes, obviously the money issue is big, the enormous startup cost (all metal troops, brothers and sisters!) is a bit of a obstacle. But when the codex, at the time it was written, is kind of talked down within it's own covers (pure witch hunter and daemonhunter army lists are referred to 'characterful', the wargame equivalent of being miss congeniality) there's more than money problems.
> 
> Oh, and welcome combined codex comrade! Don't mind the wrathful purists who are about to flame you.


First of all every single source has shot down the combined codex rumor. Also a combined codex is a terrible idea. Here is what will happen the sisters will become cheap troop filler (sort of like the current Inquisitorial storm troopers) that aren't that good. Have any of you guys seen all those Fandex out there? Every single combined one I have seen nerfs sisters. Now you may say well those are only Fandexs I'm sure GW will do a good job. To be honest I have more faith in the Fandexs then I do with GW. Now if GW got a different author to work on each section and then combine it then I would have no problem as long as every army was done nicely. Meaning I just don't want the current Inquisition codex updated and put into one codex with nothing new expect death watch.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> That explains it because GWs marketing strategy is OUT OF THIS WORLD!!
> 
> See what I did there...tihii hii


The ol' one-two buggaloo!



Jae Namkyoung said:


> Don't get me wrong, I wanted to start off with Witch Hunters but due to the impending "codex/model" update. I ended up switching to Space Wolves (I had planned to play them as a secondary army anyway), perhaps if overall DH/WH got more support.


I'm in a similar boat- I want a GK army, but I'm a poor penniless student, so I don't want to waste my precious money on exorbitantly expensive metals if plastics will be out soon. Although I am very happy about the DE release- now my DE playing friend shall have to suffer 45pt Dark Lances as I do!! ahahahahaha!!!!! But I digest...

and whilst we're opening the 'combined codex' discussion (I know it's probably not happening, I'm just talking theoretically), I don't think it would be all the end of the world (exterminatus?), although I would like to see new units for both (Storm Raven sounds head-poppingly awesome!), as with any new release. I really like the idea of an expansion for the inquisition released separately alongside separate GK and SoB books.

By the way, does anyone know anything about the casting processes used in the metal models? I've heard they use lost-wax methods, but this doesn't make sense for mass-produced items. I'm just trying to justify their cost of late.


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> By the way, does anyone know anything about the casting processes used in the metal models? I've heard they use lost-wax methods, but this doesn't make sense for mass-produced items. I'm just trying to justify their cost of late.


Lost-wax is fine for mass production (at least, the kind of mass production GW needs - if you want 10'000 doohickies lost-wax is fine, if you want 1'000'000 not so much).

However, I believe they are die-cast. That's just the impression I get.

In any event, the cost has little to do with production method and more to do with what people are prepared to pay.


----------



## rodmillard

coke123 said:


> By the way, does anyone know anything about the casting processes used in the metal models? I've heard they use lost-wax methods, but this doesn't make sense for mass-produced items. I'm just trying to justify their cost of late.


Die cast or lost wax are both pretty much on a par for cost at the scale of production GW are talking about with metal troops. Lost wax works out more cost effective at smaller scale, and probably is still the cheaper option for unique models like special characters, even with GWs international market.

What has pushed their costs up is a rise in the global price of zinc (used in the white metal alloy). Smaller companies feel the pinch of this much less, and can absorb their losses to a certain extent, relying on the fact that the market fluctuations will bring their costs back down (they may even stockpile while prices are low, to avoid buying when the market peaks). GW can't do this. They also can't switch back to lead based pewter (at least, not if they want to continue selling their products to kids), which I suspect is part of the reason they are pushing plastics as much as possible.


----------



## coke123

rodmillard said:


> What has pushed their costs up is a rise in the global price of zinc (used in the white metal alloy).


Ah, did not realise they were a zinc alloy, thought they were pewter. Thanks for the clarification guys.


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

Necrosis said:


> First of all every single source has shot down the combined codex rumor. Also a combined codex is a terrible idea. Here is what will happen the sisters will become cheap troop filler (sort of like the current Inquisitorial storm troopers) that aren't that good. Have any of you guys seen all those Fandex out there? Every single combined one I have seen nerfs sisters. Now you may say well those are only Fandexs I'm sure GW will do a good job. To be honest I have more faith in the Fandexs then I do with GW. Now if GW got a different author to work on each section and then combine it then I would have no problem as long as every army was done nicely. Meaning I just don't want the current Inquisition codex updated and put into one codex with nothing new expect death watch.


Now remember, the word here was, Fandex. Made by, fans. While rumors have been shot down, if appropriately written a combined Inquisition Codex may bolster the Inquisition. The idea is that the Inquisition has its big three, Hereticus, Malleus and Xeno. Each one working within the Inquisition, the three in and of themselves are forces to be reckoned with and if you play *GK*, *SoB*, and *Black Templars* together you know you've got an army of whoop ass. 

That's not even adding in *Deathwatch*, at all there should be no need to "nerf" any part of the Inquistion in fact it should be away to make them play more equally together on the same playing field. I mean, Nuns with guns, is already a scary thought and we know if bolstered correctly the *SoB* becomes a scarier force to mess with. 

The Inquisition is the equivelant of Chuck Norris, I mean let's be honest, they kick ass. With a combined Codex that plays to each part and doesn't nerf anything and simply brings them together las in any franchise the points for fan favor get huge.

_Avengers Assemble! ... Autobots Rollout!_


Rant:

The first part is obviously a transition to plastic, that will one reduce cost, secondly the codex, to help in reducing the overall projected cost, a combined codex can do just that, an Inquisition combined codex would be thicker than even a Space Marine's codex but should provide the essential information just as a seperate codex would. Nothing should be left out, all information pertaining to the Inquisition and how they are played on the table must be there, there should be no reason to 'nerf' anything if you are simply taking books and merging them together.

Obviously the look and feel would be different because now you have a combined force, and the option of using different units making the Inquisition an army that has a lot of flexibility. Thirdly, there needs to be a way to make them more popular, be in comic books, video games, or simple mass marketing there is a marketing strategy at the ready, but it is up to Games Workshop to make it work.

As I've said before, the Inquisition is a large part of the 40K franchise and should not be left or made to feel inferior when in the overall outlook they are a huge part of the franchise it would be equal to someone neglecting Green Lantern or Warmachine, are they not big factors in the overall franchise outlook of the Justice League or Iron Man. 

The sheer audacity that Games Workshop has neglected these armies shows me their incompetence, while I can understand a money issue, I feel that if you update one army you need to update them all. There should be no reason why one army is playing by 5th Edition and another in 3rd Edition, it's pure incompetence and a failure of communication and priorities on the company.

You can give numerous reasons as to why, the fact remains the same when you do something, you need to do it 100% and not 50%. 

/Rant.

:biggrin:


----------



## DonFer

This is out of topic of course but since there's been some interest in costs and GW prices, you should all check out the following thread:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70863

It's quite interesting and if you want, very clarifying too.k:

On the combined Dex, well personally I don't quite like the idea. GK and SoB are two different armies with different puirposes working under a common Banner. I rather have a focused Codex for each army and one for the Inquisiton (though I know the last wont happen), this way you get a more unified army with a unique feel to it, compared to the "troops for the Inquisition" feel we've got now. That's just me anyway...:grin:


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

Oh yeah, no I hear what you're saying, it's just the only way you may get that is through a singular codex, and as mentioned they are three different branches. Much like, Army, Navy and Air Force are three different branches but work under a common banner. I mean, there are obviously people here who have ran both *GK* and *SoB* together and independently, the idea behind the combined codex would be to establish more clearly a unique rule for their working under a common banner, to give them more of a presence on the table top (not like they don't have it already, however...) it's more or less a way to get everything in one book, versus different books. (Even though we may be more than willing to shell out for different books...)

Either way, my overall hope is for a new codex one way or another, combined or not, simple fact is we need a new codex. *=][=*

P.S. Thanks for the link, bro.


----------



## Shandathe

Quite frankly, getting timeshared with the Inquisition wasn't good for the Sisters themselves. I'd rather not see them combined with MORE Inquisitorial BS. Perhaps it'd help if people would try and stop thinking about the Sisters as an Inquisitorial force. I realize that the Inquisitor in C:WH is a lot more useful than the Priest, but the Sisters are first and foremost the armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy. That doesn't mean they don't do a lot for the Inquisition - interests of the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy largely overlap - but they've also got to keep up with Wars of Faith, protecting shrineworld and pilgrims and a dozen other tasks.

The Grey Knights, on the other hand, have nothing better to do than work for the Ordo Malleus, which makes them an Inquisition force 

Question of the Day: Given the sheer number of duties listed for the SoB, by how many do you think they outnumber the Space Marines?


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

Shandathe said:


> Perhaps it'd help if people would try and stop thinking about the Sisters as an Inquisitorial force. I realize that the Inquisitor in C:WH is a lot more useful than the Priest, but the Sisters are first and foremost the armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy. That doesn't mean they don't do a lot for the Inquisition - interests of the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy largely overlap - but they've also got to keep up with Wars of Faith, protecting shrineworld and pilgrims and a dozen other tasks.
> 
> The Grey Knights, on the other hand, have nothing better to do than work for the Ordo Malleus, which makes them an Inquisition force
> 
> Question of the Day: Given the sheer number of duties listed for the SoB, by how many do you think they outnumber the Space Marines?


_I really should be doing my work, however; this conversation just keeps me interested, besides I'm only learning about printers :grin:_

Touché, I give you points as I had not... Recalled that _this after spending an entire day reading various 40K Wiki's_.

I would say on my part, I like the idea of them leading this huge ass force of people to be like, oh and yeah we're gonna kick your ass. On the flip side, it may just be that because their head office is the big *=][=* that the preception is Ecclesiarchy, it is the Inquistion, which was the idea behind my analogy that related to DonFer's reference of the different branches.

So here we have the big Ecclesiarchy > Ordo Malleus, Ecclesiarchy > Ordo Xeno, Ecclesiarchy > Ordo Herecticus. The idea then goes to, okay, put out three different codex, right, but have a Ecclesiarchy codex, much like that big ol' Space Marine codex and say the Space Wolves/Black Templars/Blood Angels, something more in relation to that, would that be acceptable, would that be something that as a fanbase, people would be willing to buy.

Oh and your answer bro, 10 to 1, Sisters would outnumber their marine brethern. That's my answer but I'm partial to females. :biggrin:


----------



## Azezel

Shandathe said:


> Perhaps it'd help if people would try and stop thinking about the Sisters as an Inquisitorial force. I realize that the Inquisitor in C:WH is a lot more useful than the Priest, but the Sisters are first and foremost the armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy.


Precisely.

The Sisters of Battle are not part of the =][= - they merely work for the Hereticus when required.

As for numbers - 

First - I've never serriously believed that one million space Marines, even movie marines, could make a difference in an Imperium of a million or more worlds.

However, I suspect there must be at least 100 million Battle Sisters and perhaps twice as many Sisters of the non-militant Orders.

Battle sisters guard Ecclesiarchy property including cathedrals and major churches. Each planet has at least one, requiring 5-100 Battle sisters per site. Most planets have more than one Cathedral and a few dozen major churches - each with a mission of Battle sisters.

That alone makes for tens of millions of sisters. Add in those employed on the pilgrimage routs, the Convents and those engaged in Wars of Faith and Crusades. _At least_ 100 Million.

And in the Imperium that's still rare enough that most people will never see one with their own eyes.


----------



## boreas

I'd say sisters probably vastly outnumber the Space Marines. However, Sororitas _warriors_ are probably outnumbered. That's because of one factor: power armor. Power armor is not as common as WH40k might let think. I'm pretty sure that SMs have first pick out of whatever is produced. 

As for the whole WH codex thing, well my position is elaborated on page 75 of this thread as a big anti-GW nerdrage 

Phil


----------



## DonFer

Jae Namkyoung said:


> Oh yeah, no I hear what you're saying, it's just the only way you may get that is through a singular codex, and as mentioned they are three different branches. Much like, Army, Navy and Air Force are three different branches but work under a common banner. I mean, there are obviously people here who have ran both *GK* and *SoB* together and independently, the idea behind the combined codex would be to establish more clearly a unique rule for their working under a common banner, to give them more of a presence on the table top (not like they don't have it already, however...) it's more or less a way to get everything in one book, versus different books. (Even though we may be more than willing to shell out for different books...)
> 
> Either way, my overall hope is for a new codex one way or another, combined or not, simple fact is we need a new codex. *=][=*
> 
> P.S. Thanks for the link, bro.


No prob mate. My hands are just itching for that new dex! :victory:


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> I'd say sisters probably vastly outnumber the Space Marines. However, Sororitas _warriors_ are probably outnumbered. That's because of one factor: power armor. Power armor is not as common as WH40k might let think. I'm pretty sure that SMs have first pick out of whatever is produced.
> 
> As for the whole WH codex thing, well my position is elaborated on page 75 of this thread as a big anti-GW nerdrage
> 
> Phil


Pretty sure any established Space Marine Chapter produces their own armour, and weapons and vehicles too, they have Techmarines for a reason.


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

boreas said:


> I'd say sisters probably vastly outnumber the Space Marines. However, Sororitas _warriors_ are probably outnumbered. That's because of one factor: power armor. Power armor is not as common as WH40k might let think. I'm pretty sure that SMs have first pick out of whatever is produced.
> 
> As for the whole WH codex thing, well my position is elaborated on page 75 of this thread as a big anti-GW nerdrage
> 
> Phil


Page 75, I only have 34  yay for forty post per page!

XD

I'm still looking at the Ecclesiarchy, and its various Ordos like military branches and their repesctive governments. All in all, new codex, period.


----------



## GrizBe

Soo... now for a complete staff wind-up... My local store today had a temp manager as ours is on holiday... we got talking about Grey Knights... He said quite out of the blue 'you know the stormraven is in the Space Wolves codex?'

Page 4, the big image.. Apparently that first big aircraft in the top right is mean to be a Stormraven... I can see the difference, but isn't it just a thunderhawk from a weird angle? Seems GW is encouraging misleading the fans all of a sudden... :laugh:


----------



## gen.ahab

That's not a damn storm raven and if it was why the fuck would it be in a codex that couldn't use it and being used by a chapter that doesn't have access to it? They can atleast make an effort at a lie. That's just sad.


----------



## deathwatch27

Winterous said:


> Pretty sure any established Space Marine Chapter produces their own armour, and weapons and vehicles too, they have Techmarines for a reason.


No the mechanium makes all wargear and distributes it according to current requirements. Although SM can't wear sisters power armour and vis-versa they wouldn't fit into the other armour and they are different sizes and styles. Even if the sisters were to wear marines armour they dont have the SM's super strength even if the suits are powered. Bolters and other weapons may be exchanged however

Not all of a suddern, thats what the staff are trained to do encourage rumour and hype to sell more!!


----------



## GrizBe

Actually, its because the suits are powered that the SM's have super strength.


----------



## gen.ahab

No it isn't. They are several times stronger than a human even without the armor.


----------



## Katie Drake

GrizBe said:


> Actually, its because the suits are powered that the SM's have super strength.





gen.ahab said:


> No it isn't. They are several times stronger than a human even without the armor.


Exactly. Power armor replicates and enhances the movements of its wearer. Space Marines are already blessed with super human strength and their armor augments it even further.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Also the black carapace makes the SM armor interface much better than a person wearing PA without said carapace.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dont SM also have to "grow" into their armour. They spend allot of time as a scout before that interface organ is mature enough to work with their power armour. So once that organ has grown they graduate from scout to space marine. Im sure Ive read something like this some where.

I guess you could compare it to the APU in the matrix vs the power suit in Disctrict 9.
The APU u is like the Sisters armour because its just a suit you wear while the District 9 suit is an exoskeleton that interfaces with the drivers body making the mech pretty much a part of you. I guess similar to how Dreadnoughts work.


----------



## mahavira

It's sort of interesting the difference between a 3 and a 4 stat in 40K appears much larger than in Fantasy. In Fantasy it's not unusual to have individual units or heroes with a higher strength or toughness, but in 40K S3 covers everything from puny humans to bloody great orks, and S4 is a super human wearing power armor (as opposed to a regular human in power armor who is still S3).


----------



## Kettu

MadCowCrazy said:


> Dont SM also have to "grow" into their armour. They spend allot of time as a scout before that interface organ is mature enough to work with their power armour. So once that organ has grown they graduate from scout to space marine. Im sure Ive read something like this some where.


Not so much 'grow' as Black Carapace develops into the marines physiology pretty quick, it's the other organs that need to develop first and that is where most their time as a scout comes from, it's training whilst waiting for the full transformation to take effect.



MadCowCrazy said:


> The APU u is like the Sisters armour because its just a suit you wear while the District 9 suit is an exoskeleton that interfaces with the drivers body making the mech pretty much a part of you. I guess similar to how Dreadnoughts work.


GW never really makes this clear. They say that Sisters lack the strength enhancing effects of PA and other functions.
But PA without strength enhancement is just really heavy armour and would be worthless in a battlefield role.

Marines in their PA are described as it being a 'second skin' so your description for them seems apt.
However Sisters on the other hand, if their armour only moved when they moved (Say, via internal pressure sensors) there would be a constant drag on their limbs and body which would lead to very sever fatigue in a relatively short length of time. (Imagine if you will, running and fighting in syrup)

The Sisters would need a form of mental or nervous interface as to avoid this problem as then the armour would move with the limb, not after it.

I personally always thought of the Black Carapace not involved with movement or strength enhancement but more to do with some kind of health analyser that would treat injury and display the marine’s current health on his HUD.
That or whilst Sisters have some form of nervous system interface the marines BC is a more advanced or superior system (Think the difference between copper cables to fibre-optics in information delivery).
Or again, Marines rarely take their armour off, in which case the BC acts as a permanent connection that would not require maintenance where’s the Sisters, who take their armour off regularly, have a different system that would not permanently bond but as a side effect, would require maintenance more often.

And also, whoever made District 9 sure love raspberry jam a lot. :laugh:


----------



## Baron Spikey

Power Armour has reactive 'muscle' bundles that replicate and enhance the wearers speed and strength (imagine the response to the wearers actions being so quick as to barely be noticeable). Space Marines are already vastly superior to humans in every way as shown by Scouts they'd still be Str.4 even without PA (in fact Terminator Armour which is another step up in strength enhancement over P.A still doesn't push them past Str.4 so anything with Str.5 can be considered stronger than an Astartes in Tac Dread armour by a seriously alarming degree.

The Black Carapace doesn't 'grow', it's implanted into the Marine after he finishes his time in the Scout Company so he can interface fully with his power armour. It allows the Marine to feel the sensations the armour is subjected to as if the warrior was simply wearing paper thin material rather than inches thick ceramite, whereas an Adepta Sororitas doesn't have this option available to her- it's just powered heavy plate armour for them essentially.

Also Marines probably remove their armour at least as regularly as the Sisters do, they only stay in it for combat, ceremonial, and specific training sessions.


----------



## gen.ahab

Dude, watching that clip is like reading Heldenhammer, everyone’s head is exploding.


----------



## Azezel

The Codex says that Sororitas Power Armour has the same protective ability as Astartes armour, but must forego the life-support and strength enhancement of Astartes armour.

That doesn't mean it lacks any life-support or strength enhancement, just that it isn't equal to Astartes armour. No surprise. In order to make armour with equal protection, but in a smaller frame, something had to go. the Mechanicus appear to have sarificed fiber bundles to cram in more ceramite.

Once again, we are butting up against the lack of granularity inherant in a ten-point system. An Eldar Poet and an Ork boy are both STR3 - but no-one's going to claim they are equally strong. A Sister is STR3 in or out of armour, but she is still stronger in real-terms in armour.

When the Hand of the Emperor is upon her and she has Strength 5? She's tearing Space Marines limb from limb.


----------



## gen.ahab

So the S5 thing would mean people like Arjac and the sister that you are talking about are super.... super people?


----------



## Ikbuh

Personally, I agree that fantasy strengths are more "realistic" and I like to think of Gaurd as S3, Humans in PA as S4, and SM as S5, which would make more sense. The power armor does enhance the wearer's strength because sisters of battle use the same bolters that space marines do (Godwyn-Deaz), and I remember reading that they can do this because the power armor helps absorb and manage the recoil. 

Sisters of battle do not have the black carapace, so they can not use it like a second skin, but they can use it like a suit of armor, which requires training. The Sisters of Battle train from the very beginning to use power armor, whereas Space Marines just wait until they grow the black carapace, so they don't have to train to use it. At first, yes it would probably be like moving through syrup because you would move your arm and then the suit would move and react, however the suit lets you move faster, so you train to compensate and use it to it's full potential, which the Sisters do. You can't put on a suit of plate and expect to be able to use it right from the get go, and just because power armor moves itself doesn't make it an exception.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Ikbuh said:


> Personally, I agree that fantasy strengths are more "realistic" and I like to think of Gaurd as S3, Humans in PA as S4, and SM as S5, which would make more sense. The power armor does enhance the wearer's strength because sisters of battle use the same bolters that space marines do (Godwyn-Deaz), and I remember reading that they can do this because the power armor helps absorb and manage the recoil.
> 
> Sisters of battle do not have the black carapace, so they can not use it like a second skin, but they can use it like a suit of armor, which requires training. The Sisters of Battle train from the very beginning to use power armor, whereas Space Marines just wait until they grow the black carapace, so they don't have to train to use it. At first, yes it would probably be like moving through syrup because you would move your arm and then the suit would move and react, however the suit lets you move faster, so you train to compensate and use it to it's full potential, which the Sisters do. You can't put on a suit of plate and expect to be able to use it right from the get go, and just because power armor moves itself doesn't make it an exception.


Of course Marines have to train to use their armour, the Black Carapace (which again they don't grow, it's implanted beneath their skin fully formed) allows them to interact with their armour more not give them an instinctive knowledge of how to use it.

Power armour does enhance the person's strength but not to a great enough degree that Sisters should be elevated to Str.4 and SM to Str.5- being able to control the recoil of a weapon by locking certain joints on your armour isn't the same as having the awesome strength to use the Astartes sized Bolter without said armour (as Space Marines can).

Example: I actually think the differences in Strength in Fantasy as less realistic- why is a Knight of the Inner Circle as strong as a Chaos Warrior when the other Empire Knights are the same as most other humans at Str.3?


----------



## gen.ahab

Personally, SM should be S5 with bad ass heroes being S6. But that would fuck the game sideways.


----------



## Wusword77

Isn't Str increases in an order of magnatude? Like both myself (at 145lbs) and a guy like Mike Tyson would both be a str 3? Str 4 would be insanly stronger in that regard.


----------



## Katie Drake

Wusword77 said:


> Isn't Str increases in an order of magnatude? Like both myself (at 145lbs) and a guy like Mike Tyson would both be a str 3? Str 4 would be insanly stronger in that regard.


Yeah, each point of Strength covers a pretty broad spectrum. Catachans with their gigantic muscles from living on a high gravity world have the same Strength as a skinny, scrawny scribe. Strength 3 basically encompasses the strength of nearly all humans. Orks have this same Strength as well, but are probably on the higher end of the spectrum. One way of looking at it is to take a game like Inquisitor or any of Fantasy Flight's RPGs and take note of how strength differs from character to character. Many characters start off somewhere in the 30's range (in Fantasy Flight's stuff, at least) whereas Space Marines tend to hang out in the 40's before adding the modifiers for power armor and so on.


----------



## Kettu

@Ikbuh: The Godwyn-Deaz Bolter is a Sister specific make. Marines use the larger Godwyn make and 'Civvis' get a lighter make with less recoil.
I can't remember the rest of the names but pick up (Or pirate :biggrin a copy of Inquisitor's Handbook for Dark Heresy rpg system from Fantasy Flight Games. Inside there is a few Bolter designs that the wealthy can purchase, mostly via black market.

Meanwhile, similar to DH, think of strength as having decimal points that are dropped from the final amount.
Eg, an Eldar Poet or Admin desk job No. 4933243 would have S of 3.0 whilst typical guard would be 3.3.
Sisters out of PA and Stormies and Chatachaniens would be 3.4 or even .5
Sisters in PA, who could bench-press cars, would be towards the high end at about 3.7 and Orks, who could bench-press the Sister bench-pressing the car, would be at 3.9

Meanwhile, if Sisters did have pressure sensitive suits, a very bad idea in my opinion, and trained to the point that they were unaffected by the ongoing fatigue then they would be extremely fit to a point that even Stormies would be afraid of them.


----------



## gen.ahab

"Sisters in PA, who could bench-press cars"

lmfao


----------



## Winterous

I think that Sororitas Power Armour would be comparitively more sluggish compared to the Astartes version, since they don't have the neural interface, the reactions of their suit would be slower.
So that's probably one of the reasons they ditched most of the strength-enhancing servos, to make the suit more nimble, so the wearer doesn't need to exert themselves for the suit to react as they want it to.


----------



## oblivion8

> I think that Sororitas Power Armour would be comparitively more sluggish compared to the Astartes version, since they don't have the neural interface, the reactions of their suit would be slower.


you should also take into consideration that sisters have WS and I 3, two stats which are highly affected by their speed. Therefore a sister in PA would be slowed a great deal compared to that of a space marine (WS and I 4).


----------



## Winterous

oblivion8 said:


> you should also take into consideration that sisters have WS and I 3, two stats which are highly affected by their speed. Therefore a sister in PA would be slowed a great deal compared to that of a space marine (WS and I 4).


Well, exactly, I guess.


----------



## Azezel

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that most Humans have (at best) WS 3and I 3. But again, lack of granularity. Just like Strength, Weapon Skill and Initiative cover a broad spectrum.

If you've trained in power armour every day since your were 13 years old then you're not going to be slowed much by it.

Though one cannot help but imagine the first day of Power Armour training for sororitas noviciates at the Scholla. There is no doubt a long line of little girls standing outside the Matron's office with dislocated shoulders and pulled muscles.

Which, thinking about it, means that Power Armour must come in children's sizes - training armour, at least.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Which, thinking about it, means that Power Armour must come in children's sizes - training armour, at least.


Quoted for lulz.
Baby sized Power Armour


----------



## MadCowCrazy

How does Inquisitor and such games handle the stats?
From what I understand some can be STR 31 others 36 or 47 etc. How does one calculated combat and things like that using these stats? Is it something that could be plausible for 40k in 6ed? I guess it would be like moving from 2nd to 3rd edition.

I have never played Inquisitor so I dont even know if the above stats are plausible.

From just reading the Ork codex I know Orks in mega armour weigh in at above 1 metric ton, it doesnt really seem like weight affects the users STR value too much though.
The Meganobz for instance are S4, but would a Space Marine with S4 be able to lift a Meganob? If a meganob gets hit by a Demolisher round and sent flying into a group of SMs would they be able to push him off them or would they simply get crushed from his weight?

Then again we are talking about made up stuff and trying to apply real world physics to it might not really be feasable


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> How does Inquisitor and such games handle the stats?
> From what I understand some can be STR 31 others 36 or 47 etc. How does one calculated combat and things like that using these stats? Is it something that could be plausible for 40k in 6ed? I guess it would be like moving from 2nd to 3rd edition.
> 
> I have never played Inquisitor so I dont even know if the above stats are plausible.


I actually have all the PDF's of =I= from when it was online for free (not sure if it still is, don't think so).
I think your average Guardsman is about S50-60, where a Space Marine is about 100 or more; but that's before the 15% (I think) boost from their Power Armour.



MadCowCrazy said:


> From just reading the Ork codex I know Orks in mega armour weigh in at above 1 metric ton, it doesnt really seem like weight affects the users STR value too much though.
> The Meganobz for instance are S4, but would a Space Marine with S4 be able to lift a Meganob? If a meganob gets hit by a Demolisher round and sent flying into a group of SMs would they be able to push him off them or would they simply get crushed from his weight?
> 
> Then again we are talking about made up stuff and trying to apply real world physics to it might not really be feasable


A Marine in full suit could probably roll one of them off him, but it would be a struggle; just a guess of course.

Their Strength is, as always, generalised; of course the weight of their arms would increase the force of a punch from them, but it might be balanced by other factors such as the slow speed of the blow.
Then again that's why they get Power Klaws, because they're walking tanks.


----------



## coke123

I'm pretty sure that the speed is a major factor in determining strength. When we analyse collisions (for instance, a punch or other combat blow) we would analyse the momentum of the colliding objects, which is dependant on speed. The reason a bullet keeps going through you is because of it's momentum. Or thinking of it differently, what would hurt more, a push (starting from rest on the victims body, as many pushes are) or a punch which will have picked up speed before it hits the person.

Although I have only done first year physics, so there are probably people here that know more about it than me. The other thing is, we're applying science from our universe to one with space elves, super soldiers and giant carnivorous bug aliens, and this is the detail we have trouble believing? There is a point were we begin to overthink things and I think we may have crossed it ever so slightly...

Perhaps it's time to just suspend belief


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I'm pretty sure that the speed is a major factor in determining strength. When we analyse collisions (for instance, a punch or other combat blow) we would analyse the momentum of the colliding objects, which is dependant on speed. The reason a bullet keeps going through you is because of it's momentum. Or thinking of it differently, what would hurt more, a push (starting from rest on the victims body, as many pushes are) or a punch which will have picked up speed before it hits the person.
> 
> Although I have only done first year physics, so there are probably people here that know more about it than me. The other thing is, we're applying science from our universe to one with space elves, super soldiers and giant carnivorous bug aliens, and this is the detail we have trouble believing? There is a point were we begin to overthink things and I think we may have crossed it ever so slightly...
> 
> Perhaps it's time to just suspend belief


Not really sure what this is directed at to be honest :S
If it was my Mega Armoured Nob punch thing, then:

I was just referring to the fact that their arms are clad in metal, while their fist may be heavier, they are certainly slower to move, so a punch from them may sort of 'balance out' with a punch from a regular Nob.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Not really sure what this is directed at to be honest :S
> If it was my Mega Armoured Nob punch thing, then:
> 
> I was just referring to the fact that their arms are clad in metal, while their fist may be heavier, they are certainly slower to move, so a punch from them may sort of 'balance out' with a punch from a regular Nob.


Sorry, should have been clearer, although I was talking generally I was replying to people talking about S5 marines, and such. Although what you have said here, as I read it, really just comes to the same conclusion I did, for a different situation. I agree with you about the Mega Armour Nobz.


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> Not really sure what this is directed at to be honest :S
> If it was my Mega Armoured Nob punch thing, then:
> 
> I was just referring to the fact that their arms are clad in metal, while their fist may be heavier, they are certainly slower to move, so a punch from them may sort of 'balance out' with a punch from a regular Nob.


It doesn't balance. the formula is Ke=MV^2

The velocity is squared, the mass is not, so the velocity is more important than the mass in determining the final kinetic energy of a punch. Of course, the ideal is to maximise both.

It seems sort of irrelevant, though. If an Ork punches you, you're going to know about it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Winterous said:


> I actually have all the PDF's of =I= from when it was online for free (not sure if it still is, don't think so).
> I think your average Guardsman is about S50-60, where a Space Marine is about 100 or more; but that's before the 15% (I think) boost from their Power Armour.


Yes the PDFs are still available free of charge from the Specialist section of the GW site.


----------



## Shandathe

For some good estimates of Sororitas Power Armour, examine the words of that Shining Beacon of Truth, the Hero of the Imperium, Ciaphas Cain. In _Cain's Last Stand_ he watches Sister Julien and her novitiates on a few occasions. It's fairly obvious that yes, training is needed, and Sororitas Power Armour at the very least grants enough strength to compensate for the armour's weight and a bit to spare.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Sorry to go off topic  
but doesn't this rumoured assassins stats sound extremely similar to the ones from that faked codex a while back?


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> Sorry to go off topic
> but doesn't this rumoured assassins stats sound extremely similar to the ones from that faked codex a while back?


There was a faked codex?


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> It doesn't balance. the formula is Ke=MV^2
> 
> The velocity is squared, the mass is not, so the velocity is more important than the mass in determining the final kinetic energy of a punch. Of course, the ideal is to maximise both.
> 
> It seems sort of irrelevant, though. If an Ork punches you, you're going to know about it.


Oh yeah, you're right. I was looking at momentum (which really is intrinsically tied to KE anyway), but looking at KE makes it much clearer. So what Orks should do is salvage Tau Railguns and use them to launch their Mega Armoured Nobz at the enemy- maximise both mass and velocity.


----------



## gen.ahab

Except they would pop under that kind of acceleration.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> launch their Mega Armoured Nobz at the enemy- maximise both mass and velocity.


Like a Shokk Attack Gun, but much, MUCH bigger :biggrin:


----------



## Kettu

Didn't Orks use to have that as a gun back in 2nd?
A Gretchin Cannon or something like that?

@Bindi Baji; Dunno, didn't even know of a faked one; know plenty of fan ones though.
I didn't really take much notice of the rumour past my first few comments because when I hunted it down I came to realise it wasn't connected to any other rumours (GK, =][= or sisters mainly) and so I kinda figured it was probably someone wish-listing.

Anyway, back on topic. :sarcastichand:

@MadCowCrazy; I can't say for the old Inquisitor game, been years since I last played and even then I barely learnt the rules.
However in Dark Heresy the stats on the some part follow that of the ttg. You have BS, WS, S, T and I can't remember the rest at this point.
These stats are in two digits as it is a d100 based game with the tens of said stat forming your 'bonus'.
When you roll you normally roll you aim to get lower than your stat for success with various additional modifiers applied. (E.g. Laser Sight I believe you add ten to your BS. I'm still learning the system myself)

When I get home tonight I'll have a flick through the books and share what bonuses Sisters PA give you. However, they have yet to give rules for actual Sisters of Battle PA and what have been given so far are civvies stuff, armoured suits for outer space repair work and 'light' military PA but this is still not the standard Sisters suit.


----------



## oblivion8

> push (starting from rest on the victims body, as many pushes are)


lol, word choice of victim really stuck out for me :grin:


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> Didn't Orks use to have that as a gun back in 2nd?
> A Gretchin Cannon or something like that?


They did, it was called the Shokk Attack Gun, made a portal through the warp, and teleported Snotlings _inside_ the enemy.

And they still have it in 4th ed  (although it took a break in 3rd ed, for some stupid reason).


----------



## Kettu

That's right, and fantasy has that goblin shanghai. I was thinking of a odd mix of the two for some reason.
You never know, maybe the next Ork codex will have a mega-nob cannon deep strike ability.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> You never know, maybe the next Ork codex will have a mega-nob cannon deep strike ability.


Space Marines secure themselves inside their Drop Pods.
Orks WEAR their Drop Pods.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Like a Shokk Attack Gun, but much, MUCH bigger :biggrin:


And angrier.

I can just imagine one of the Bosses nonchalantly climbing into a disused battle cannon, pointing at the thing he wants to hit, and then just sticking out his fist superman style, all the while telling himself that this is the greatest idea ever, and that 'dem humies are stupid for not using their Leman Russes like this themselves.

Wait, isn't this a daemonhunter/witch hunter rumour thread? How the hell did we get here?

Back on topic, does anyone know/have an insight on/have an idea about how many men may be included in a PAGK plastic box set? For other releases I'd assume 10, but since GK are so elite I thought they might release a combat squad box (like for vanilla marines).


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> And angrier.
> 
> I can just imagine one one the Bosses nonchalantly climbing into a disused battle cannon, pointing at the thing he wants to hit, and then just sticking out his fist superman style, all the while telling himself that this is the greatest idea ever, and that 'dem humies are stupid for not using their Leman Russes like this themselves.
> 
> Wait, isn't this a daemonhunter/witch hunter rumour thread? How the hell did we get here?


Who knows, but delightful imagery! :laugh:


----------



## coke123

As much as I don't like Orks, they're certainly the most fun to talk about! Imagine Youtube, if orks had access (nay, a concept of) the internet. Just watching their poorly planned contraptions horrifically (or spectacularly) fail would probably replace T.V. for me.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

In regards to the fake codex, there has been no such thing so far.
There have however been 2 fan dexes that have been referred to more than once.

Ive read these guys have made fan dexes before as part of their campaigns etc and that they have been pretty accurate in their guesses as to what new stuff is added to codicies yet to be updated.
http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/AotE/TGS Imperial Edition.pdf
Here is their Assassin Statline
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
6 5 4 4 3 6 3 10 3+

There was also another fandex that came out a few months ago called Codex Inquisition.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31467113/Warhammer-40-000-Codex-Inquisition
It has this statline
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 4 2 5 3 10 4+

So compared to these new rumoured stats they seem pretty inferior to be honest though having such high BS ans WS dont really matter much at all. You hit on 2+ with reroll on 4+ for shooting (though Vindicare is rumoured to have BS10 because of his rifle meaning twin linked on 2+) and you hit on 3+ and are hit on 4+ by most units for assault though some need 5+ to hit.
These are the rumoured stats and as you can see its allot better than what has been in the fan dexes.
WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:7 A:4 Ld:10 SV:4+/4+i


To my knowlege these are the only codicies that have been referred to these last few months when people talk about fandexes or "fake codicies".
Id like to point out again that there has been NO FAKE CODICIES yet, just fandexes.
The only fake thing so far have been false rumours and a fake codex page showing some GK stats.
The fake stats picture can be seen here. AND REMEMBER THESE STATS ARE FAKE!!! (Though they could be good guesses as to whats to come )


----------



## boreas

Wasn't this made by Valhyar, or was is Justicar Valius?

Phil


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> In regards to the fake codex, there has been no such thing so far.


I remember people referring to one over at dakka and even quoting bits, some of the stats sounded uncannily like the recent assassin rumour, could well have been a fandex that people mistook as a faked codex


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> Wasn't this made by Valhyar, or was is Justicar Valius?
> 
> Phil


Ahah yeah, the fake codex entry is mine. I also did one for Terminators :biggrin: Now I want to update them with all the new rumours to make them more credible...


----------



## boreas

Come on, make us some nice WS9 BS9 assassin entries 

Phil


----------



## Necrosis

boreas said:


> Come on, make us some nice WS9 BS9 assassin entries
> 
> Phil


I think the Vindicare should be BS 10. As for the other assassin WS 6 but with some crazy rules.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Ahah yeah, the fake codex entry is mine. I also did one for Terminators :biggrin: Now I want to update them with all the new rumours to make them more credible...


Please don't. Fake rumors are lame and making fake rumors is even more lame.


----------



## HOBO

Vhalyar said:


> Ahah yeah, the fake codex entry is mine. I also did one for Terminators :biggrin: Now I want to update them with all the new rumours to make them more credible...


and confuse the hell out of people for no real reason:threaten:


----------



## gen.ahab

Necrosis said:


> I think the Vindicare should be BS 10. As for the other assassin WS 6 but with some crazy rules.


That's far to high for any human. That aim is beyond what any human could ever achieve. Hell, 8 is to high. Maybe 7. Match up with the several hundred year old UM scout.


----------



## Winterous

gen.ahab said:


> That's far to high for any human. That aim is beyond what any human could ever achieve. Hell, 8 is to high. Maybe 7. Match up with the several hundred year old UM scout.


I agree that 10 is too high, I think 8 is the upper limit of reasonable.
You have to give credit to them though, these assassins aren't really humans, they're genetically modified, mentally conditioned, life-purposed killing machines; to a great degree than Space Marines, by far.
Not to mention they almost certainly use performance enhancing drugs.


----------



## coke123

Plus rumours have said that it's the exitus rifle that gives BS10, rather than the assassin having the stat innately. In that regard it's just the technology augmenting a human with a high BS, say around 7-8. Meaning if he had say, both bolt pistol and exitus rifle, if you used the rifle it would be BS10, but if you used the pistol (for whatever reason) it would be BS8.


----------



## Dynamike

It will be easy for them to give a bonus to BS(or simply make it TL) with exitus rifle since it will be an option/build for the assassin. I believe it will be good though, but different from the rest of the other armies and it is what I really like about them.

What the PAGK mostly need is have their survivabilty increased. Something interesting would be to have more options in terms of weaponry.

Something to look for also right now is what are the changes that will be done to terminators. A lot of people like to use them because they are so strong.

I feel this is a really exciting time for us 40k players with the coming of the remake of those older armies. Will truly bring diversity to the table. It is true that 5th edition is strong on vehicules but with the types of armies coming that plays differently, it might force players to diversify their weapon loadout to face different menace instead of just the latest shiny codex. 

Can't wait for the GK codex myself. Let's also not forget and wish the best to our fellow SoB players/fans!


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> Please don't. Fake rumors are lame and making fake rumors is even more lame.





HOBO said:


> and confuse the hell out of people for no real reason:threaten:


To be fair (let's be fair, yes!) when I posted those I prefaced the post with big bold letters saying* "Not real! Those are 100% made up by me!"* but that didn't stop people from reposting them as rumours on various other forums. The intent was not to confuse, but personally to see if I could recreate the codex layout. It was a success, which leads us to...



boreas said:


> Come on, make us some nice WS9 BS9 assassin entries
> 
> Phil


I'm thinking about how the entries would be written, but it's raising a lot of questions. Based on the current Army List setup it doesn't work very well unless the assassins are dumbed down.

For example, the Vindicare option would be: Add Exitus Rifle, Exitus Pistol, Spy Mask, Stealth Suit and the Marksman special rule to the profile. If you offer to buy a package and start listing everything you get the entry becomes huge and a little confusing; the opposite of what the Army List is supposed to be like. Hence why Land Raiders/Rhinos are split into unique profiles.

Unique profiles make more sense; but then the baseline of WS/BS 8/8 doesn't. You'd think that if each unit has its own profile that their stats would be tailored to them. No reason why a Vindicare should be shanking enemies like an Eversor in close combat.

Oh well, I'm rambling now.


----------



## gen.ahab

I don't see why they should have better stats than a SM chapter master? A chapter master is a gene enhanced super soldier that is the best of a thousand warriors who have hundreds of years of war under their belts. I don't see why thy would be better.


----------



## boreas

Well, some of those can be explained. The WS and BS are the sum, in a way, of the character and his weapons. A Vindicare with an exitus rifle should have a higher BS than a SM captain. Technically, though, if you could equip that same rifle on a SM Captain, then yes, he might have the same BS. 

But let's not forget something: game mechanics and fluff are two very very different things. After all, a power weapon that can slice through a Terminator armor is not worth more than a naked fist when attacking a tank!

Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

gen.ahab said:


> I don't see why they should have better stats than a SM chapter master? A chapter master is a gene enhanced super soldier that is the best of a thousand warriors who have hundreds of years of war under their belts. I don't see why thy would be better.


_Nemesis_ goes some way toward explaining this, as does ADB's _Soul Hunter_. Basically, Assassins are superior to Space Marines on an individual basis. Reasoning is that they're not trained for war, they're instead trained to _kill_ and only kill. All of their training focuses on achieving this through one method. Add in all sorts of genetic enhancements, specialist equipment and the backing of the Adeptus Terra and Inquisition and you've got an insanely efficient and skilled killer.


----------



## gen.ahab

There isn't any precedent for that for that. If such were true then my BS should be greater when using a bolt rifle than when using a bolt pistol.

At Katie, 
I don't think they shouldn't be better than your run of the mill marine, but better than a chapter master? I don't think so.


----------



## boreas

Technically, it should, but once again, game mechanic =/= real life. It used to be that sniper hit on 2+, IIRC. The point wouldn't be able to compare how, realistically, an assassin is good in regards to an SM captain. The goal would be to make the unit (say vindicare) interesting to use in a game. If your SM captain has a BS of 5 (is it 6?) and you make you Vindicare BS 5 (let's say he's _as_ good as the SM captain), then I really hope he's going to be cheap, point wise. Or he has better have some real redeeming qualities (eg Exitus rifle that cause Instant Death and is AP2). Otherwise, no one is going to use that unit (like now!).

But now, purely fluff-wise? I think a Vindicare with an exitus rifle is a better shot than an SM captain. Year and years of training, specifically at sniping, should tell. Especially since the SM captain might not have fired a sniper rifle in decades. But then again, lots an lots of factors should be included in the game. AT-43 has a mechanic to factor in distance when shooting. Shooting a bolter at 24" should be much less precise than shooting a sniper rifle! If the enemy unit hasn't moved previous turn, you should get a BS bonus, etc etc...

Phil


----------



## gen.ahab

The sniper should be able to reroll hits and hit on a 2+ but the base BS of the vindi should be 6-7.


----------



## boreas

A special rule for the exitus rifle, allowing a higher hit rate then BS 6, would make sense game-wise. And then, I would agree with you that the vindicare could have a "fluffy" BS 6 

Phil


----------



## Shandathe

Seriously, the sniper might be a better shot - given time to *line it up*, but unlike the Chapter Master, he should have a lot of reasons not to be openly participating in the middle of an armed conflict.


----------



## boreas

Quite true, but then again, fun and game mechanics! Technically, Marneus Calgar is way to busy to go ahead and kill a few dudes. And IG basilisks should always be on another table 100-120" away  With DH/WH codice GW had the guts to incorporated lots of "illogical" units like daemonhosts, inquisitors, snipers and penitent engine. While I know that the upcoming codice will focus less on those, I still hope they will still have some presence because they give so much flavor to WH40k.

Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

boreas said:


> I still hope they will still have some presence because they give so much flavor to WH40k.
> 
> Phil


They would, except almost nobody uses them so they rarely see the table.


----------



## boreas

But with good stats and mechanics, people would. Repentia with 4++ save and 2 base attacks. 30 pts DCA. Penitent engines with "fleet" that you can control (no "rage") and that can move 6" in the movement phase, run d6 and either assault or move another d6 in the assault phase (in wich case treat as moving through dangerouse terrain). Same with arcos (fleet, move 6+d6 can either assault or move another d6 in the assault phase, treat as dangerous terrain). I'm not sure if those examples are good, but the point is people want to use those units, now, but don't simply because au bad rules/cost/mechanics. GW only has to correct this, and I just hope they will 

Phil


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> And IG basilisks should always be on another table 100-120" away


This, to be honest, is probably the single most unflavoursome thing in the game :S
I mean really, artillery are long-ranged for a reason, why would them bring them to the front line?


----------



## gen.ahab

A single lone badass is just a single lone badass. Lonewolves don't do so hot in gunfights.


----------



## HOBO

gen.ahab said:


> A single lone badass is just a single lone badass. Lonewolves don't do so hot in gunfights.


True that..Assassins will have to be damn good for me to include them over other choices, well in the initial stages of building a list with the new Codex anyway..once things settle down they might be worth fielding.

Then again, I am looking at a pure GK list first and foremost, and in the hope it will be able to stand on its own 2 feet effectiveness-wise...the fluffy Inquisition stuff will have to wait:angel:


----------



## GrizBe

A little bit from Stickmonkey:



Stickmonkey said:


> Just poking my head in.
> 
> It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...incl storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it DSs in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) This has all been mentioned before...
> 
> Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.



I'm guessing that means =I= forces are more sort of support units and 'cannon fodder' .

Assasins, looks like they've done away with the cults if that 'Combined with wargear' is anything to go by.

GK's with dash of =I=? Thats how it should be in my mind.


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> GK's with dash of =I=? Thats how it should be in my mind.


Exactly, who really played Daemonhunters for the Inquisitors and fancy Guardsmen?


----------



## coke123

I was just flicking through the DH codex, and now I reckon that the current stat line is alright. Then just make the Exitus rifle give BS 10 and it kicks arse.

Another thought, what if they made assassins work like eldar harlequins and their troupe masters, shadowseers and death jesters? so take a unit of basic assassins (e.g. deathcult, or even just have it available for stormtroopers), then have each Officio assassinorum assassin as an upgrade character. Gets rid of the 'lone wolf' problem they currently have, and it makes sense to me that on an open battlefield an assassin would have some backup. He'd only go alone for a mission were stealth is absolutely of the essence, and our 40k games aren't really one of them.

Or make them work like WFB assassins that start the game hidden in a unit.



Winterous said:


> Exactly, who really played Daemonhunters for the Inquisitors and fancy Guardsmen?


People with way too much disposable income. And frankly those guardsmen aren't that fancy. Most people I know who use them just have them go to ground all game whilst the knights do all the real fighting.


----------



## Kettu

boreas said:


> Quite true, but then again, fun and game mechanics! Technically, Marneus Calgar is way to busy to go ahead and kill a few dudes. And IG basilisks should always be on another table 100-120" away  With DH/WH codice GW had the guts to incorporated lots of "illogical" units like daemonhosts, inquisitors, snipers and penitent engine. While I know that the upcoming codice will focus less on those, I still hope they will still have some presence because they give so much flavor to WH40k.
> 
> Phil


Not to sure I'd personally use the word 'guts' here. The 'freakshow' options always really struck me as poorly thought out or implemented. It personally seems that it was just to carry the imagery over from what was already started in the Inquisitor game for recognition purpose and it would save time and effort then think up anything new for the army.

As for Calgar? What if he was leading a forlorn hope to capture/kill/destroy some objective from right under the nose of the enemy forces? It really isn't hard to excuse special characters or even high ranking commanders unless their fluff states that they would never go any where with less then a force thousands/millions strong.

And Bassies? I've played a few games where they were on a different board bombarding the main table with a guard force of a platoon or two and the enemy could choose to send part of his force to destroy them before they did two much damage.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> And Bassies? I've played a few games where they were on a different board bombarding the main table with a guard force of a platoon or two and the enemy could choose to send part of his force to destroy them before they did two much damage.


I do really like the idea of multiple battle fronts, having one board affect the other, but the affected board hosts the primary objectives.


----------



## Kettu

We stole the idea from an old WD which had three or four battles.

We normally just have an artillery feature or two attacking the main table but once we had four tables working in unison with besieging artillery on one, the city's artillery (And my Exorcists) on another, the bridge that led to the main gate on another and a game of Space Hulk on the last which was the besieging forces vanguard force attempting to blow up the gate with my Sisters acting as the 'genestealers' working to stop them. (I lost after the Ork player just played 'Unt da Umie' instead of heading after the objective, so at least he lost that. :biggrin

However, the entire game was just a right royal bugger to organise and so we'll probably only go as complex as three tables in the future without games cross-over.


----------



## boreas

Mutli-table are cool, I agree. I also agree that the whole Ordo malleus army wasn't that great. From what I've seen, most DH players are actually GK players. The =I= part of the WH codex, though, seems to have been more popular. Whereas I've seen few players fiddle with daemonhosts, I've seen a lot of players try PE, Arcos, DCA and Zealots (from the WD rules). I think the idea of a freakshow/Ecclesiarchy army has enough appeal to be made viable. I know this usually rouses the anger of "pure" sisters players who want a codex-full of sisters units only  Still, the freakshow is what drew me into WH40k in the first place (I've got 3 PE, 6 DCA, 6 arcos, all 4 assassins, priests, all fully painted).

Phil


----------



## coke123

I was thinking of doing some multi-table games with a combination of battlefleet gothic and 40k- one table for the star system ,one for low orbit, and one for the actual planet (ie the 40k table). Does anyone know if this works?


----------



## Kettu

Battlefleet could work but there would be a time overlap problem.
A standard game of 40k takes place in game over the course of a few mins to half an hour whilst BFG is an hour minimum, probably closer to a day.
You could have events play out in a set order but not really at the same time as you could with 40k, SH, Epic, Necromunda, or even DH/RT/DW.
Not to say it can't be done, but would require much thought.
And be warned; Just four tables with six players still took the better part of a day and one of the six just playing GM to keep things straight.


----------



## mahavira

boreas said:


> Mutli-table are cool, I agree. I also agree that the whole Ordo malleus army wasn't that great. From what I've seen, most DH players are actually GK players. The =I= part of the WH codex, though, seems to have been more popular. Whereas I've seen few players fiddle with daemonhosts, I've seen a lot of players try PE, Arcos, DCA and Zealots (from the WD rules). I think the idea of a freakshow/Ecclesiarchy army has enough appeal to be made viable. I know this usually rouses the anger of "pure" sisters players who want a codex-full of sisters units only  Still, the freakshow is what drew me into WH40k in the first place (I've got 3 PE, 6 DCA, 6 arcos, all 4 assassins, priests, all fully painted).
> 
> Phil


Well, one reason nobody takes Daemonhosts is that if you do you CAN'T HAVE Grey Knights, whereas taking penitent engines and acro flagellants alongside sisters of battle is both fluffy and legal (now if they could just be made cost effective we'd be well away).


----------



## Shandathe

uhrr... Also, PEs, Arcos depend on priests, which are Ecclesiarchy... not Inquisition.


----------



## boreas

Shandathe said:


> uhrr... Also, PEs, Arcos depend on priests, which are Ecclesiarchy... not Inquisition.


So true... My bad  I'm just so used to running that list with an Inquisitor-Lord (in fact an Inquisitor-Lady!) HQ...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> I'm thinking about how the entries would be written, but it's raising a lot of questions. Based on the current Army List setup it doesn't work very well unless the assassins are dumbed down.
> 
> For example, the Vindicare option would be: Add Exitus Rifle, Exitus Pistol, Spy Mask, Stealth Suit and the Marksman special rule to the profile. If you offer to buy a package and start listing everything you get the entry becomes huge and a little confusing; the opposite of what the Army List is supposed to be like. Hence why Land Raiders/Rhinos are split into unique profiles.
> 
> Unique profiles make more sense; but then the baseline of WS/BS 8/8 doesn't. You'd think that if each unit has its own profile that their stats would be tailored to them. No reason why a Vindicare should be shanking enemies like an Eversor in close combat.
> 
> Oh well, I'm rambling now.


This one is easy :grin:
Have the baseline of stats then add care packages.
If the rumours are true it will work pretty much like this :
Assassin with his/her statline.
Temple care package: Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus, Culexus, Vanus, Venum.
Vindicare package = Exitus Rifle/Pistol kit, Stealth suit, spy mask.
Exitus Rifle = Adds +2BS, Ap2 and gives the Marksman rule.
The other stuff gives whatever rules they have.

A system like this does make sense to me or they could use the current system.




Winterous said:


> This, to be honest, is probably the single most unflavoursome thing in the game :S
> I mean really, artillery are long-ranged for a reason, why would them bring them to the front line?


I got a better one, how about Manticore Missile launchers with Deathstrike missiles. They should be on a table in the nearest town to yours since they launch intercontinental missiles 
Im sure IG has a good reason for wanting them so close they can tankshock with them


----------



## Dynamike

With the way the codex are written lately it would probably sound like the Assassin can exchange his toothpick and slingshot for X1, X2 and X3 equipment for Y amount of points.

How specific they will be on giving names to the different builds, we don't seem to know just yet. Personnally I hope they still give a different name somewhere/somehow in the codex for this extra bit of "fluff".


----------



## coke123

Kettu said:


> Battlefleet could work but there would be a time overlap problem.
> A standard game of 40k takes place in game over the course of a few mins to half an hour whilst BFG is an hour minimum, probably closer to a day.


Wait, do you mean physical gameplay time, or the difference between the time scales of the two games?



Dynamike said:


> How specific they will be on giving names to the different builds, we don't seem to know just yet. Personnally I hope they still give a different name somewhere/somehow in the codex for this extra bit of "fluff".


Mad Cow's solution would be a remedy for this. I reckon it would be a good idea, so long as you can't mix 'packages'. Kinda like chaos marks.


----------



## Shandathe

He means game time scale. Warhammer spaceships are slow, ponderous, and pack a punch that makes worlds weep.


----------



## boreas

In that regards, a BFG game played before could give some "on the table" advantage to the winner in a latter WH40k game (ie a free orbital bombardment as per codex WH/DH or only that player can use the Deep Strike rule, etc...)

Phil


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> I got a better one, how about Manticore Missile launchers with Deathstrike missiles. They should be on a table in the nearest town to yours since they launch intercontinental missiles
> Im sure IG has a good reason for wanting them so close they can tankshock with them


Oh yes, those two have limited ammo!
They need to do SOMETHING after they've run out


----------



## coke123

Shandathe said:


> He means game time scale. Warhammer spaceships are slow, ponderous, and pack a punch that makes worlds weep.


Right, cheers.



boreas said:


> In that regards, a BFG game played before could give some "on the table" advantage to the winner in a latter WH40k game (ie a free orbital bombardment as per codex WH/DH or only that player can use the Deep Strike rule, etc...)


Well we have a chaos player, an IG player and myself who is wanting to start GK. I was thinking something along the lines of having chaos attacking an outnumbered guard force on the planet's surface with a blockade on the BFG table. The GK/SM/whatever army then has to break through the blockade, get into low orbit and start firing thunderhawks/assault boats, in order to deep strike troops, or the craft can attempt to land and then deploy via the outflank rule.

As for the time problem, I could just have a ratio between games turns, like two turns of 40k to each turn of BFG, or something like that. Except the guard will be hard pressed to defend against a chaos army that outnumbers them by too much for too long.

Or I could just not worry about it, give the game a go and ignore time inconsistencies, or explain them away with some suitable science fiction mumbo-jumbo. There's something in the SM codex about a field that slows down time...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This could be found on GWs homepage today.
Source
Dark Eldar
1. Lifting the veil on the Dark Eldar project with Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly.
2. 'Eavy Metal painted miniatures, artwork, concept drawings, 3UPs, plastic frames all on display.
3. Dark Eldar video presentation.

Ops, wrong thread


----------



## GrizBe

Another little snippet from everyones favourite GK rumours guy:



Stickmonkey said:


> I'm about to get in trouble...in all likelihood...for stating this...so I'm going to try to be as plain but non-specific as I can...
> 
> To respond to the flood of requests for how well the plastics will mesh with the old metals...
> 
> The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.
> 
> But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.
> 
> Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.
> 
> Hope that helps...


----------



## Vhalyar

So it's more or less confirmed that Robin Cruddace is writing the Grey Knights codex. Harry confirmed Mat Ward for the Necrons and Phil Kelly's busy with the Dark Eldar, so we get Robin for the Knights.

Hopefully this book is more like the Imperial Guards than the Tyranids.


----------



## LordWaffles

boreas said:


> Well, I could see some GKs having a rule where they can attack after DS-ing. Not being able to DS within assault range of a chaos icon would balance it out...
> 
> Phil


HAHAHAHAHAH you really think crazy piratical double lash princes will stop GK?

GK are like spess mehreens on steroids and hax. They don't give two damns about those ridiculous little icons your generic chaos spess muhreens carry around, also who the eff plays icons of chaos? They're turrible.

I'm sincerely hoping GK's are good enough to beat mech list, cause even with all the new murder toys if they can't kill six chimeras with the triple melta gun vets on the inside, it's a waste of a codex. A codex that many people have really high hopes of.

I mean really the only thing I've read so far that gives me hope of GK being any good at all is that they might be able to reroll all saves. If they auto get 3+/5+ that'd be alright, but if they're just a 2+ with bad nightfighting they're going to get creamed, especially with all the ap1 s8 guns the ig totes around at bs marine these days.

I just don't see footslogging GK's being able to stop the leafblower list, regardless of how many power weapons and rending you add, they'll get shot to damn pieces.(Albeit very nice, very ornate damn pieces)


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> So it's more or less confirmed that Robin Cruddace is writing the Grey Knights codex. Harry confirmed Mat Ward for the Necrons and Phil Kelly's busy with the Dark Eldar, so we get Robin for the Knights.
> 
> Hopefully this book is more like the Imperial Guards than the Tyranids.


A) I don't think the current 'Nid 'dex is nearly as bad as people seem to believe. I think people are just upset that they bought a dozen carnifexes and can't find a place for them all now. that and the FAQ was badly done.

b) Who does that leave writing SoB? The more reliable rumourmongers have said that somebody is doing something SoB related.


----------



## Katie Drake

Azezel said:


> b) Who does that leave writing SoB? The more reliable rumourmongers have said that somebody is doing something SoB related.


Ugh, isn't there only one person that could be doing it? His first and last name start with a J...


----------



## fynn

shit, that mean that the sisters will be fucked over big time then, if that idiot is doing the dex
they end up being a female version of ultra smuffs


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> A) I don't think the current 'Nid 'dex is nearly as bad as people seem to believe. I think people are just upset that they bought a dozen carnifexes and can't find a place for them all now. that and the FAQ was badly done.
> 
> b) Who does that leave writing SoB? The more reliable rumourmongers have said that somebody is doing something SoB related.


It's not bad but it was a poor effort. The quality of the writing of the rules is a far cry from his previous work. There were a lot of questions and ambiguities that should not have made their way through the QA phase. And not that the IG don't have their stinkers, but the Pyrovore is in its own category; truly a snowflake of worthlessness.


----------



## Azezel

fynn said:


> shit, that mean that the sisters will be fucked over big time then, if that idiot is doing the dex
> they end up being a female version of ultra smuffs


Ultrasmurfettes?

Anyway - that means there's a chance they might get mysteriously AP2 stormbolters and assorted funny business.

Is Gav Thorpe still doing codices? He did alright by the Sisters back in 2e (at least, from reading the 'dex, I never played 2e).


----------



## Baron Spikey

Gav Thorpe doesn't work for GW anymore so if he was to do a Codex I doubt it would be GW legal :wink:


----------



## Winterous

Vhalyar said:


> It's not bad but it was a poor effort. The quality of the writing of the rules is a far cry from his previous work. There were a lot of questions and ambiguities that should not have made their way through the QA phase. And not that the IG don't have their stinkers, but the Pyrovore is in its own category; truly a snowflake of worthlessness.


I think overall the codex had very good rules, however, there were a handful of stupid things.

1. Deathspitters on Carnifexes and Tyrants are WORTHLESS, for the same cost (and slot) you get a flat-out better weapon (bar the lack of an AP).
2. Pyrovores, not really a BAD unit, but they aren't needed in an army with already heaps of anti-infantry, and they take a glorious Elites slot.
3. As you said, poor wording on a lot of rules.
4. Carnifexes are a little meh.

Other than that, it's pretty much great.


----------



## Kettu

fynn said:


> shit, that mean that the sisters will be fucked over big time then, if that idiot is doing the dex
> they end up being a female version of ultra smuffs


Don't mind me, just passing through...

But clue me in, what's so bad about JJ?
I do feel I'm missing out on some perfectly good bitching material here.

Oh, and by the by, was talking to an new guy at my local yesterday and it turns out he's from Scotland (The accent kinda gave it away) and, ready your Sodium and Chlorine compounds everyone, he 'knows' one of the design staff and he said the Sisters are planned for September 2011 to coincide with the BL release of the Sister of Battle Snuff-Ficlet Assuredly Brilliant Novel. sarcastichand
He also went on to say that there would be a squad of Mistresses and that Repentia were being axed (He went on to describe a few other things but I’ve forgotten most but I do remember something about the land-raider super-flamer would be appearing throughout the army).

Other then the Codex rumoured for roughly the same time frame as the proposed release date for the Sanctuary 101 novel, I personally doubt everything he said but none the less, just throwing it out there and if anyone who is in the know wants to elaborate then go for it.

[EDIT] Hmm, just noticed the blurb changed from during-S101 to post-S101 where they send a 1000pt army of girls to investigate.
Wait, a SoB shrine is utterly wiped out to a woman and so to investigate they send little more than 1000pts equivalent force? You'd send a full army, not just a few squads.
I don't know if this is better or worse than before.


----------



## mahavira

Kettu said:


> Don't mind me, just passing through...
> 
> But clue me in, what's so bad about JJ?
> I do feel I'm missing out on some perfectly good bitching material here.
> 
> Oh, and by the by, was talking to an new guy at my local yesterday and it turns out he's from Scotland (The accent kinda gave it away) and, ready your Sodium and Chlorine compounds everyone, he 'knows' one of the design staff and he said the Sisters are planned for September 2011 to coincide with the BL release of the Sister of Battle Snuff-Ficlet Assuredly Brilliant Novel. sarcastichand
> He also went on to say that there would be a squad of Mistresses and that Repentia were being axed (He went on to describe a few other things but I’ve forgotten most but I do remember something about the land-raider super-flamer would be appearing throughout the army).
> 
> Other then the Codex rumoured for roughly the same time frame as the proposed release date for the Sanctuary 101 novel, I personally doubt everything he said but none the less, just throwing it out there and if anyone who is in the know wants to elaborate then go for it.
> 
> [EDIT] Hmm, just noticed the blurb changed from during-S101 to post-S101 where they send a 1000pt army of girls to investigate.
> Wait, a SoB shrine is utterly wiped out to a woman and so to investigate they send little more than 1000pts equivalent force? You'd send a full army, not just a few squads.
> I don't know if this is better or worse than before.


Don't want to throw water over anything, but why in the Emperor's name would there be a squad of mistresses? What would they be mistresses of? I could see a mistress leading a squad of novices, or a squad of repentia, maybe even a squad of acro flagellants, but just mistresses? Does not compute. And if they ditch repentia altogether they need their heads examined: there's nothing wrong with the idea, they just need better implementation (see also, Engine, Penitent, and Flagellant, Acro). 

Would be nice to see Sisters get some of the new flamer toys they've been missing (it was a travesty they didn't get incinerators on immolators or celestians at least: why does holy prometheum scare orks, eldar, and tau, who couldn't possibly care less whether it's holy or not, when the same description of contents for GK ignores invulnerable saves (like those of psykers, whom the SoB help the Inquisition hunt)). I've been sitting on an unopened land raider redeemer in hopes of sisters getting access to it (or inquisitors at least) for some time. Sisters of Battle are the burniest army in the game, they should have the tools to do the job.

As to the new novel, it can't possibly be worse than Faith and Fire (the laws of physics prevent such a thing), or a more blatant hit job than Duty Calls, so I'll chalk myself up as looking forward to it.


----------



## Winterous

mahavira said:


> What would they be mistresses of?


Well SoB are all 'married' to the Emperor, right?
Like a nun is married to god.

If they're a unit of Mistresses... Think about it


----------



## Necrosis

Kettu said:


> Oh, and by the by, was talking to an new guy at my local yesterday and it turns out he's from Scotland (The accent kinda gave it away) and, ready your Sodium and Chlorine compounds everyone, he 'knows' one of the design staff and he said the Sisters are planned for September 2011 to coincide with the BL release of the Sister of Battle Snuff-Ficlet Assuredly Brilliant Novel. sarcastichand
> He also went on to say that there would be a squad of Mistresses and that Repentia were being axed (He went on to describe a few other things but I’ve forgotten most but I do remember something about the land-raider super-flamer would be appearing throughout the army).
> 
> Other then the Codex rumoured for roughly the same time frame as the proposed release date for the Sanctuary 101 novel, I personally doubt everything he said but none the less, just throwing it out there and if anyone who is in the know wants to elaborate then go for it.
> 
> [EDIT] Hmm, just noticed the blurb changed from during-S101 to post-S101 where they send a 1000pt army of girls to investigate.
> Wait, a SoB shrine is utterly wiped out to a woman and so to investigate they send little more than 1000pts equivalent force? You'd send a full army, not just a few squads.
> I don't know if this is better or worse than before.


Here is how I predict the book will end.
One the Sisters and Necrons will fight each other for a while and then a bunch of Tyranids will show up, so the sisters and necrons will join forces and defeat the nids.

That being said imagine if GW made 6th edition and the starter set was sisters and necrons. I would probably buy two of them. But ya that's probably not going to happen cause their is no space marines.


----------



## Winterous

Necrosis said:


> Here is how I predict the book will end.
> One the Sisters and Necrons will fight each other for a while and then a bunch of Tyranids will show up, so the sisters and necrons will join forces and defeat the nids.
> 
> That being said imagine if GW made 6th edition and the starter set was sisters and necrons. I would probably buy two of them. But ya that's probably not going to happen cause their is no space marines.


Necrons are totally just robot Space Marines.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Necrons are totally just robot Space Marines.


Robot Space Marines that don't freaking die. Or shut down. Or whatever it is that robots do.


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> He also went on to say that there would be a squad of Mistresses and that Repentia were being axed



Actually, many moons ago, rumours of a new model surfaced. It was a woman in power armour wielding twin cats 'o nine tails. There was speculation that this was a new (named?) Repentia mistress - but then somebody claimed that there would be whole squads of these.

I'm not saying that either of these rumours are true, but is it possible that your 'source' is just muddling his fourth-hand information. I.E. there will be Repentia+Mistrisses AND these other models?


Oh, and NOOOO! Why'd they have to let Swallow have another go at the poor old sisters? Where's Ben Counter when you need him?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I dont care what anyone says about Mr Slurp Slurp, he is the only author so far who has even had the guts to write about the Sisters of Battle as the main theme and heroes of the book. If I had the time I would have a medal made for him and personally hand it to him at Games Day this sunday.

About the Sisters in September rumour, it does make sense to me, allot of sense actually.
From what I gather the release schedule for next year will be :
Jan : Grey Knights
Early summer : Necrons
Autumn : Sisters of Battle

I asked a person in "the know" what he thought about this schedule and he did reply that it seemed plausible.
It also makes allot of sense to have Necrons and Sisters back to back as a way to promote the Black Library book but more importantly it would make sense if they also made a boxed set with Sisters vs Necrons. Assault on Sanctuary 101 could be the name of the set and it could be themed after the book.

All of this makes allot of sense to me so if it turns out to be true remember you heard it here first


----------



## GrizBe

Seems plausable to me too given the current 'known facts'.


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I gather the release schedule for next year will be :
> Jan : Grey Knights
> Early summer : Necrons
> Autumn : Sisters of Battle


I certainly hope not... That would be 3 new codice in one year for me. Way too much. I might get brain damage or something. Oh, and what would I bitch about? 

Just kiddin', bring 'em on, GW, BRING 'EM ON!!!!!

Phil


----------



## coke123

I just can't see any boxed set including sisters. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea, but when it comes right down to it, boxed games are designed to get new players into the game. I think it's fair to say that many (if not a majority) of *NEW* players are generally young, and males, i.e. boys. So what are you going to do to attract them? Create a starter set with one half of the models being girls. I know it's childish (in fact, that's pretty much the crux of my argument) but think back to when you were ten. Would you have played with an army which is liable to give you girl germs? I doubt it.

Although a boxed set without marines would be nice (not that it'd ever happen). I'd suggest Eldar vs Necrons, considering their age old rivalry. Although that would be breaking pattern, generally it's a horde vs elite (in both WFB and 40k).


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> About the Sisters in September rumour, it does make sense to me, allot of sense actually.
> From what I gather the release schedule for next year will be :
> Jan : Grey Knights
> Early summer : Necrons
> Autumn : Sisters of Battle
> 
> It also makes allot of sense to have Necrons and Sisters back to back as a way to promote the Black Library book


Actually - I'm with you on that - it does look eminently plausable.

with the proviso that BB and others reckon there's some Space Marines in 2011 somewhere.



coke123 said:


> I know it's childish (in fact, that's pretty much the crux of my argument) but think back to when you were ten. Would you have played with an army which is liable to give you girl germs?


Well, I wasn't what you'd call a normal ten year old, but in general, yes, I do understand why there'll never be a boxset without smurfs in it. A Sanctuary 101 box would be great though - I've sometimes thought about playing 'crons.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I know it's childish (in fact, that's pretty much the crux of my argument) but think back to when you were ten. Would you have played with an army which is liable to give you girl germs? I doubt it.


Maybe when I was twelve :grin:


----------



## GrizBe

People seem to forget that alot of females play the game too... how many of them want a masculine army?


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> People seem to forget that alot of females play the game too... how many of them want a masculine army?


..Wait.
*GIRLS* play Warhammer???
*faints*

Some play SoB because they're female, but most of them don't really care, just like most male players (I'd hope) don't avoid playing them because they're women.


----------



## DonFer

So any rumours about what's to wait this weekend in GD UK?? Hopefuly Mad Cow can catch any news on GKs and release dates. Use any means available to you to get any info! k:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

DonFer said:


> So any rumours about what's to wait this weekend in GD UK?? Hopefuly Mad Cow can catch any news on GKs and release dates. Use any means available to you to get any info! k:


I will try so hard I might end up getting thrown out 

I think a starter set with Sisters and Necrons would make perfect sense since they already have AoBR which they could continue to sell.
The boxes are ment to get new players into the game and I think GW might have realised the SM needs something other than SM to fight.
So why not create a boxed set with Sisters and Necrons, they are 2 armies that most people never even see or get to play against on the tabletop.
It would be a easy way to get people into the 2 armies and if they just got new sparkly dexes this could be the new shiny for people to pick up.

So they would have AoBR for the kids, Sisters vs Crons for people who wants to try something unusual/new.
It all makes so much sense my head hurts, but I doubt it eventhough I believe it would be a great idea to get people into the two armies.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> I will try so hard I might end up getting thrown out
> 
> I think a starter set with Sisters and Necrons would make perfect sense since they already have AoBR which they could continue to sell...
> 
> So they would have AoBR for the kids, Sisters vs Crons for people who wants to try something unusual/new.
> It all makes so much sense my head hurts, but I doubt it eventhough I believe it would be a great idea to get people into the two armies.


Ok, I get this. I was working under the assumption that AoBR would be phased out with the new boxed set (as is the norm). Christ, a boxed set with Necrons would sell shitloads.



GrizBe said:


> People seem to forget that alot of females play the game too...


Really? I don't know any. Wanna introduce us? :biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

Unfotuantely most of the females that play in my area are either under age or someones g/f / wife. But they do exist!

GW really do need to make a starter box then contains something other then SM's... Sisters and Necrons would be awesome. As MCC pointed out, Marines need someone else to fight other then Marines... and hell, Marines will always be popular without having to push them on the noobs.


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> Unfotuantely most of the females that play in my area are either under age or someones g/f / wife. But they do exist!


A man can dream though, a man can dream...

At any rate, I just realised you're in England, and I'm in Australia. I guess we probably have fewer women in our gaming community.

As to the box set, looking back the formula seems to be a horde army vs an elite army, with one being 'evil' and the other 'good' (from the imperial point of view, at any rate), and this applies to both 40k and fantasy. Trouble, with SM always being in it, this means there are almost never elite evil armies, as the 'elite' slot must always go to SM. I would like to see maybe IG take up the horde slot, so a non-imperial elite army can take up the elite slot (ie Necrons, Eldar (Dark or otherwise), Chaos (Daemonic or otherwise), maybe even Tau). otherwise the antagonist will always cycle between orks and tyranids.


----------



## tu_shan82

DonFer said:


> So any rumours about what's to wait this weekend in GD UK?? Hopefuly Mad Cow can catch any news on GKs and release dates. Use any means available to you to get any info! k:



Any means available hey? Does this mean he can tie Jervis to a chair and connect his nuts to a car battery via jumper leads until he spills the beans?


----------



## coke123

tu_shan82 said:


> Any means available hey? Does this mean he can tie Jervis to a chair and connect his nuts to a car battery via jumper leads until he spills the beans?


Ninjas. Send in a team of ninjas to infiltrate Games Day, and come back with GK information. Although if we capture Jervis I can't help but imagine that we'll unravel some horrifying conspiracy, we're it turns out that Games Workshop is actually run by Tyranids. Or alternatively PLASTIC MODELS ARE MADE OF PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Though seriously, hasn't GW pretty much said that the new 40k stuff they're talking about is pretty much gonna be DE? It looks as if getting information on anything inquisitorial at Games Day shall require a plan so cunning that even the most cunning fox that graduated with a Masters in Being Cunning from Cunning University could not have thought of it.

At any rate fingers crossed we hear something. Oh, does anyone know if GK will get a Battleforce?


----------



## rasolyo

coke123 said:


> Or alternatively PLASTIC MODELS ARE MADE OF PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!


Mmm, Soylent Sprue.


----------



## Kettu

Probably doesn't taste as nice though.

Just became aware myself that there may be someone from the design staff flying to Sydney in a month or two's time for the Australian Golden Daemon. (I didn't even know the land down under still held a GD after they axed Games Day.)
So I'll go try my luck myself but if I require a ticket or something else is organised for the day by my friends or family that day then I'm not gonna bother.

Otherwise, nothing of note to add.


----------



## coke123

Kettu said:


> Probably doesn't taste as nice though.
> 
> Just became aware myself that there may be someone from the design staff flying to Sydney in a month or two's time for the Australian Golden Daemon. (I didn't even know the land down under still held a GD after they axed Games Day.)
> So I'll go try my luck myself but if I require a ticket or something else is organised for the day by my friends or family that day then I'm not gonna bother.
> 
> Otherwise, nothing of note to add.


We don't have a games day as far as I know, but we most certainly have Golden Daemon. I don't know if we have an event that people actually attend, or if people just get notified by mail. If that's the case I might ask around at the Sydney bunker. I go right past it every day anyway.


----------



## DonFer

tu_shan82 said:


> Any means available hey? Does this mean he can tie Jervis to a chair and connect his nuts to a car battery via jumper leads until he spills the beans?


I wonder if that'll work...:biggrin:

But seriously if at the end of the day ...errr .... at Games Day, there is nothing about GKs, the floor will open wide and a horde of gibbering daemons will spill out and swallow every GW staff member taking them to an eternity of torment in the Warp... and there'll be no GKs to help them... :laugh:


----------



## LordWaffles

tu_shan82 said:


> Any means available hey? Does this mean he can tie Jervis to a chair and connect his nuts to a car battery via jumper leads until he spills the beans?


We could always threaten to take his lunch money, he's just some nerd with a better paying job then most.


----------



## tu_shan82

LordWaffles said:


> We could always threaten to take his lunch money, he's just some nerd with a better paying job then most.


You sir just earned some rep for making me laugh quite hard.


----------



## GrizBe

Hiding in plain sight... did anyone else notice the Grey Knight in todays 'whats New Today' section of the main site?


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon

LordWaffles said:


> We could always threaten to take his lunch money, he's just some nerd with a better paying job then most.


I gotta agree with TuShan. Have some rep, mate.


----------



## Tuatara

GrizBe said:


> Hiding in plain sight... did anyone else notice the Grey Knight in todays 'whats New Today' section of the main site?


I saw that, but not really convinced it means anything. Just an opportunity to mention the importance of bringing some glue along to a tournament (learned that one the hard way, let me tell you  ).


----------



## GrizBe

True enough... but there are alot of other models they could have used to make the same point...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

They wanted to showcase their newest 40K release by having a Daemon prince, who better to fight one of those than a GK?

Then again breakage like that shouldnt happen if you pin your metal models


----------



## boreas

Or is it a good example of what won't happen with... plastics?!?!?

Phil


----------



## Winterous

I think that photo was BECAUSE the model broke, and they just took the opportunity to chuck it in.


----------



## mahavira

If they wanted an ideal showcase of unwanted breakage, Seraphim backpacks are the ticket. Thin enough to be hard to pin, and so damn fragile (and top heavy so they fall over like crazy) that losing a backpack per game is not uncommon. Unless there's a trick I don't know (this is probably the best crowd for the question).


----------



## coke123

mahavira said:


> If they wanted an ideal showcase of unwanted breakage, Seraphim backpacks are the ticket. Thin enough to be hard to pin, and so damn fragile (and top heavy so they fall over like crazy) that losing a backpack per game is not uncommon. Unless there's a trick I don't know (this is probably the best crowd for the question).


Change your glue. For my Warp Spiders i had a similar problem, so I got fed up and used liquid nails. You've gotta be real careful it's not visible from the outside though. Or use an AB apoxy like Araldite. Not the most subtle solution, but it'll hold anything together pretty much permanently. Again, don't use too much, or else you'll end up with visible glue 'blobs' on your model that are impossible to get rid of. It's really strong, so you only need a tiny amount.

Another trick I've used is to reinforce the join with Blu-Tac. A tiny blob on the join right before you apply glue seems to hold anything together, as it goes hard once the glue dries. This is also handy if you want to reposition arms and stuff as well.

But no doubt someone else will come along with a much cleverer solution.

By the way, someone earlier said something about a games designer coming to Sydney for Golden Daemon Australia? Cause the National finals are happening on the 13th of November at Sydney Battle Bunker. My exams should be well and truly over by that point, so I'll go if I'm free, do you have a name so I can ask the guy?


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> If they wanted an ideal showcase of unwanted breakage, Seraphim backpacks are the ticket. Thin enough to be hard to pin, and so damn fragile (and top heavy so they fall over like crazy) that losing a backpack per game is not uncommon. Unless there's a trick I don't know (this is probably the best crowd for the question).


A tiny (tiny!) square of tissue. The problem with a lot of metal models is that there's only a very small amount of contact area between two parts - and that's what superglue needs, contact area. A tiny scrap of tissue increases the contact area to pretty much 100% of the glued area.

I don't use it for backpacks, never had an issue there, but for things like arms, hell yes.


----------



## coke123

Ah, very clever!


----------



## bitsandkits

I have had alot of sucess with scratching the glue surfaces,by roughing up the two glue surfaces you increase the surface area, very usefull on metal and resin, might give the tissue paper a try as that would be faster though, its nice to hear new ideas when you have been at this for 20 years!


----------



## Winterous

bitsandkits said:


> I have had alot of sucess with scratching the glue surfaces,by roughing up the two glue surfaces you increase the surface area, very usefull on metal and resin, might give the tissue paper a try as that would be faster though, its nice to hear new ideas when you have been at this for 20 years!


Increasing surface area is for increasing the strength of the bond, the tissue paper I think is to bridge the gap between loosely fit pieces, actually creating that bond where there wasn't one before.


----------



## Azezel

Exactly - scoring or keying the joint increases the surface area, but not the _contact area_ - the area of metal touching metal. Epoxy loves surface area, but superglue is all about contact area (at least, in my experience).


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Exactly - scoring or keying the joint increases the surface area, but not the _contact area_ - the area of metal touching metal. Epoxy loves surface area, but superglue is all about contact area (at least, in my experience).


Although having both certainly can't hurt.


----------



## Kettu

coke123 said:


> By the way, someone earlier said something about a games designer coming to Sydney for Golden Daemon Australia? Cause the National finals are happening on the 13th of November at Sydney Battle Bunker. My exams should be well and truly over by that point, so I'll go if I'm free, do you have a name so I can ask the guy?


Sadly, no. I was just at my local and I saw the Games Day mini on sale.
I asked if the Games Day Australia had started again.
The manager told me that no, it hadn't but the mini was also the ticket to enter into the Golden Daemon of which the finals in Sydney 'would be coming up in a month or so.' He then went on to gush about the GD minis for a short while but he did mention that one or some of the Design Team are normally there so 'even if you just want to bug them instead of me for a change!'

I'm in the Shire myself but I'm really busy with TAFE most the time and most weekends are consumed with work, housework or friends however and so I may not be able to go myself.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I gather the release schedule for next year will be :
> Jan : Grey Knights
> Early summer : Necrons
> Autumn : Sisters of Battle


I believe there is a codex between GK and necrons but at this advanced stage things have a tendency to change like the british weather.

I'm not sure where this chatter of another core boxset before the next edition has come from but quite frankly it's about as likely as a working oven made of butter



GrizBe said:


> Unfotuantely most of the females that play in my area are either under age or someones g/f / wife. But they do exist!


In my experience most (no, not all) girl war gamers get into the hobby through partners



mahavira said:


> If they wanted an ideal showcase of unwanted breakage, Seraphim backpacks are the ticket. Thin enough to be hard to pin, and so damn fragile (and top heavy so they fall over like crazy)


not forgetting zoanthropes, I have lost count of the amount of times an opposing players zoanthropes have decided to fall over half way through a game


----------



## mcmuffin

Bindi Baji said:


> I believe there is a codex between GK and necrons but at this advanced stage things have a tendency to change like the british weather.


More space marines no doubt, it is a little bit sad that they are getting at least one codex per year, considering how many armies are ignored and shelved, which never happens to marines. my money would be on BT, but it could be anything loyalist in power armour.:wink:


----------



## GrizBe

News just in from Mr Monkey :



Stickmonkey said:


> according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their SBs. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.
> 
> Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me.
> 
> If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits.
> 
> since this is not confirmed anyhow, this is what I've been able to gather from various sources for the GK TA sprues:
> 
> 5 legs
> 6 torsos
> 8 heads
> 6 nfw
> 5 SB
> unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
> GK TA back banner
> 6-8 shoulder shields
> 12 shoulder pads
> ~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
> 8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
> 4 hands (right/left?)
> more?


----------



## Doelago

Good find, sounds pretty solid as well...


----------



## boreas

Woa... That's it, I'll keep a few because they're cool, but I'm seeling my metal models! I've had the great pleasure of working with the Stegadon and Temple Guards kits (and yes, I give credit when it's due because I sure can bitch against GW at times!!!) and those kits are _tremendous_... If those are anything to go by, the new kit will be bounds ahead of the already gorgeous GKT.

Phil


----------



## mahavira

mcmuffin said:


> More space marines no doubt, it is a little bit sad that they are getting at least one codex per year, considering how many armies are ignored and shelved, which never happens to marines. my money would be on BT, but it could be anything loyalist in power armour.:wink:


What, an individual Grey Knights codex isn't space marine enough for them?


----------



## coke123

mahavira said:


> What, an individual Grey Knights codex isn't space marine enough for them?


Seconded. Although I wouldn't put it past them to try and pass it off as "but it's inquisition, not space marines!". How old is the current BT codex?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Seconded. Although I wouldn't put it past them to try and pass it off as "but it's inquisition, not space marines!". How old is the current BT codex?


Old. It was the third Codex released during 4th edition, just after Tyranids and before Tau Empire.


----------



## coke123

Right, so they're probably about due (after Inquisition, Dark Eldar and Necrons, of course).


----------



## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> I'm not sure where this chatter of another core boxset before the next edition has come from but quite frankly it's about as likely as a working oven made of butter


Me thinks rampant wish-listing but Sisters vs Necrons I'd love to see.

None the less, Butter Ovens sound like a challenge to me. :grin:


----------



## coke123

Bindi Baji said:


> I'm not sure where this chatter of another core boxset before the next edition has come from but quite frankly it's about as likely as a working oven made of butter


If we can deep-fry ice cream and beer, then anything is possible!:biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You can deep fry beer? Lol, the hell does that taste like?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> You can deep fry beer? Lol, the hell does that taste like?


The Scots deep fry ice cream I think, so it's safe to assume you can deep fry beer.

... or just have beer batter on your fish and chips. Whichever you prefer.


----------



## GrizBe

Theres a Chip Shop in Edinburgh in Scotland, litterally whatever you take in and want deep fried, they'll do it. From Mars Bars to Salad.


----------



## coke123

In Australia deep-fried ice-cream is served as a dessert at many Chinese restaurants. The ice-cream is flash-frozen and battered, and then flash-fried.

Deep-fried beer can be done in a couple of ways- either simply mix in the beer with batter and fry it (I've also heard of coke being fried this way), or I read more recently that some guy in America won a 'deep fry competition' by creating a parcel of pastry, which he filled with beer, and then deep fried. Oh, and MCC, sorry but I have no idea what it tastes like; I"d rather not eat something that has the potential to cause both coronary and liver failure!:biggrin:

Although the Scottish do take the cake (and fry it) when it comes to deep frying stuff. Hope you've enjoyed todays dose of trivia! Now, any more rumours out there?


----------



## Azezel

Beer could be deep fried, but you'd need to do it in zero gravity. Create a sphere of beer (it rhymes, don't you know) then, float batter on the sphere, creating a contiguous shell, then waft the beer sphere into your deep fryer. The Fryer will need to be fitted to a very, very gentle centrifuge to keep the oil in. But not too fast or the beer sphere will collapse before the batter hardens.


Edit - does anyone else think this thread is starting to wander slightly?


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Edit - does anyone else think this thread is starting to wander slightly?


Of course it is, there's nothing to report


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> does anyone else think this thread is starting to wander slightly?


 The word 'think' implies an opinion- its a bloody fact that this thread is not only wandering, but has fallen off the edge of the universe into the eternal abyss. But there's nothing else to talk about, and if you don't feel like trudging through our inane chatter, madcow has the news and rumours compilation at the beginning. This thread is almost like a games of six degrees of separation, always starting with the inquisition.

inquisition->SoB vs Necrons box set->metaphor involving butter fridge-> deep fried beer.

Wow, only four degrees!


----------



## mahavira

Presumably MadCow will have news for us on/after sunday, even if only "those rat bastards wouldn't talk about anything other than Dark Eldar".


----------



## coke123

Fingers crossed! Although I'm feeling a little pessimistic about hearing anything Inquisitorial at games day. I sincerely hope I'm wrong though!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I dont mind this thread going a bit off topic from time to time when there is a rumours drought unlike warseer who delete and ban people left and right.
As was mentioned if you dont want to read the chatter at the back just take a look at the front, I will sift through it for you and add it to the front.

Not much you can do about rumours drought except create your own but thats just lame and causes too much grief when the "ppl in the known" starts smashing it to bits.

Id rather see this thread have 5 off topic posts a day than no on topic. Even if you go off topic it only lasts about a page anyways. 
I have a high tolerance for off topic discussion but I will sort out spam, advertisements and things that dont really belong in this thread.

I can use the batter beer thing as an example, it lasted 1 page and my question was pretty much answered. I asked about it and received an answer, should it have been in another thread? Probably but would it be worth creating a new thread to have the 5post answers and then the thread dies? If its really that important to people to know about deep frying beer then Im sure someone will make a thread about it but for now it satisfied my curiosity and eventhough off topic it only lasted a few posts.

If people ask questions and someone knows the answer, even if off topic, then I see no problem answering them. One should apply some common sense though like coming here asking for Dark Eldar rumours, then its just a simple matter of telling them where to go. 
The question will still have been off topic but a quick answer will have been given so no problems there.
Asking about the latest car news or about Muscle Monthly doesnt really belong here though 

If this thread does go down the drain I can easily put it back on track but so far I havent had to do that simply because it corrects itself. If its too much off topic someone will mention it, look above, and it will get back on track.
This brings us back to where we are now, a rumours drought, and I dont expect that to change much until Sunday.
With some luck maybe some GK picture will surface like we have seen for Dark Eldar but I doubt it.

Just a few more hours to go before I take the ferry over to Sweden to begin my journey to Games Day. I will be back home on Monday night, I will have been awake for 36 hours unless I can catch some sleep on the trains, flights and ferry but will try to upload something once I get home. I might be too tired though.

Im sure tons of stuff will pop up elsewhere on Sunday from people who live close by or bring a laptop to the event to upload pictures.

All in all I will see you guys on Tuesday early early morning unless im too tired. I will be back at 11pm GMT +2 on Monday so dont expect anything from me until one hour later than this.

I will be at the blue sm statue at 1pm and again at 2pm to meet people from the different forums incase someone is going and wants to meet up there. 
Other than this you might see me stalking the game designers around the event :crazy:


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> Fingers crossed! Although I'm feeling a little pessimistic about hearing anything Inquisitorial at games day. I sincerely hope I'm wrong though!


it's amazing how many "little" things are let slipped at games days, some designers are just too excited to keep quiet and all it takes is the right question


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just a few more hours to go before I take the ferry over to Sweden to begin my journey to Games Day. I will be back home on Monday night, I will have been awake for 36 hours unless I can catch some sleep on the trains, flights and ferry but will try to upload something once I get home. I might be too tired though.
> 
> All in all I will see you guys on Tuesday early early morning unless im too tired. I will be back at 11pm GMT +2 on Monday so dont expect anything from me until one hour later than this.


It shall be an epic quest! Though seriously dude, get some sleep and just post later on Tuesday. We all really appreciate this, especially those of us who are just in the wrong hemisphere to be able to attend ourselves.



Bindi Baji said:


> it's amazing how many "little" things are let slipped at games days, some designers are just too excited to keep quiet and all it takes is the right question


I repeat- fingers crossed!


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just a few more hours to go before I take the ferry over to Sweden to begin my journey to Games Day. I will be back home on Monday night, I will have been awake for 36 hours unless I can catch some sleep on the trains, flights and ferry but will try to upload something once I get home. I might be too tired though.


You carry the hopes of us all with you, Sir. Godspeed


----------



## boreas

Lucky you! I'm trapped here in snowy Canada (I'm kidding, it's not snowing, yet!).... One day, one day, maybe, I'll be able to travel to the Old Country on Games Day. That or I could go to the US Games Day, but unfortunately it's not that good from what I read  

Bring us news!

Phil


----------



## Kettu

Enjoy yourself MCC.


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> I have a high tolerance for off topic discussion but I will sort out spam, advertisements and things that dont really belong in this thread.


So no "Shop Smart....shop S-Mart" (guess the movie).



MadCowCrazy said:


> Just a few more hours to go before I take the ferry over to Sweden to begin my journey to Games Day. I will be back home on Monday night, I will have been awake for 36 hours unless I can catch some sleep on the trains, flights and ferry but will try to upload something once I get home. I might be too tired though.


Now I know why you have the words "Mad" and "Crazy" in your name 

Have a great time dude and as coke123 said, when you get home, get some sleep first. No point killing yourself for us (although we will appreciate your sacrifice should it come to that).


----------



## Dynamike

boreas said:


> Lucky you! I'm trapped here in snowy Canada (I'm kidding, it's not snowing, yet!)....


Same here in Canada!

If I could I would go and would love to meet you in person MadCowCrazy. Maybe we could team up in "interrogating" those game designers! 

Have fun and, above all, take care of you in this great adventure in which you are about to embark!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im now at the airport waiting for my return flight to sweden in 3 hours. Ive been awake since 8am saturday morning GMT+2. Im so tired I cant fall sleep...

Im sure tons of stuff has popped up all over the internet these past few hours but I will share some of the stuff I managed to pick up.

I managed to take pictures of most of the new Dark Eldar sprues and had quite a long coversation about them, he didnt want to be filmed talking about them so all I can go by is hearsay. I also took a few pictures of the next codex pages but they got a little bit "angry" at me when they realised what i was doin 

I wont be able to show you the codex inside pictures but I can show you the sprues as soon as I get home.

I had a talk to the guy who wrote the codex about creating all female armies and he showed me the sprues.

Not sure which was which but on the Warrior sprue there are 4 female and 6 male bodies, on another boxed set there are 6female and 4 male sprues and they are pretty much interchangable.

I think each warrior sprue had about 10 heads on them.
The raider does have some silly sails on them but they are really small and basically just fluffy pieces of gear.

2min left on my internet time.

Most dark eldar wound on 4+, they are not poisoned, they just have that rule.
They gain bonuses as they kill whole squads.
I think first was fleet, second furious charge and 3 fearless. Think nurgle tallymaster.

They have some really nasty shooting options 

C ya in 24 hours.


----------



## Kettu

_*Sigh*_
I'm a going down the coast for two or three days with the family, no internet till I get back.
Looks like I'm going to miss out on the Squee and Bitch-fest for a while.

See you guys then.

By the way, welcome back MCC, thanks for going through all that for the sake of us demanding sods.


----------



## GrizBe

Okay.. since i'm angsty for some GK rumours since there didn't see to be any at Games day: Take with the usual salt of unknown sources.



Wing commander said:


> A good friend of mine had a studio tour recently, strictly no cameras but other wise access allsorts of areas! He has confirmed, straight from the horses mouth, that there is a Stormraven and it looks, in his words "kinda like a baby thunderhawk" - he has also seen a ton of GK plastics and remarked that they are beautiful, in particular a massive (twice the size of a Dread?) Walker very reminiscent of those in Matrix which has a Grey Knight pilot.
> He is a fairly reliable source and only discussed what he had actually clapped eyes on but was very very buzzed about the quality of the Grey Knights.



And also:



t-tauri said:


> From the White Dwarf subscriber seminar at GD the Storm Raven was confirmed as GW have an intention to produce models for all units with a codex entry....eventually but the hint was sooner rather than later for the Storm Raven and he couldn't confirm what or when release was happening.
> 
> Similarly for the removal of some GK and sisters units from the store then they still had the DH/WH codices on line. But they were up for a re-do and "they wouldn't do one without the other".


Snagged from Warseer.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im now at Cityterminalen in Stockholm, 6 hours until the buss to the ferry leaves. Still not much sleep but atleast the internet here is allot cheaper than it was in the uk 

I asked every single person at Games Day about GK and SoB, I only got some cryptic answers in the form of "we cant say". I asked the guys who do the background graphics for the box art, they said they usually do it around 7 month prior to a release thought with DE they did it September last year if I remember correctly. I did small interviews with as many people as would allow it but the focus was on DE rather than GK and Sisters of Battle.

Many people hinted at GKs but noone confirmed anything. Its kinda funny I didnt get to take pictures of the new painted Dark Eldar, I wasnt really ready for how fast the thing ended. By the time I realised they were closing down the second section it was too late and I wasnt allowed back in there. There were probably a few thousand people who took pictures of them though so they can probably be found somewhere.

I will try to post the sprue pics as soon as I get home but my videos will have to wait a day or two so I can get some rest.

See you guys tonight.


----------



## Winterous

Niiiice, looking forward to it man


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Okay.. since i'm angsty for some GK rumours since there didn't see to be any at Games day: Take with the usual salt of unknown sources.


as I understand the stormraven was going to be shown at games day,
but it was too far from completion.

I find it a bit hard to believe that they would show off models from a codex that hasn't even been announced yet, given just how tight rumour control is.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> as I understand the stormraven was going to be shown at games day,
> but it was too far from completion.
> 
> I find it a bit hard to believe that they would show off models from a codex that hasn't even been announced yet, given just how tight rumour control is.


Erm, Blood Angels *cough* *cough*



They didnt show it but they confirmed it at the White Dwarf subscription thingie.


----------



## coke123

Bindi Baji said:


> as I understand the stormraven was going to be shown at games day,
> but it was too far from completion.
> 
> I find it a bit hard to believe that they would show off models from a codex that hasn't even been announced yet, given just how tight rumour control is.


Although they could justify the stormraven as a blood angel model. Hence they wouldn't be revealing stuff for an unannounced codex, but for BA's 2nd wave.

And about that 'Big Walker', twice as big as a dread is pretty bloody big. Is it possible he just saw 3-ups (and has a terrible sense of scale)?


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Erm, Blood Angels *cough* *cough*
> 
> 
> 
> They didnt show it but they confirmed it at the White Dwarf subscription thingie.


sorry, let me clarify, when I said



> I find it a bit hard to believe that they would show off models from a codex that hasn't even been announced yet, given just how tight rumour control is.


I was talking about this bit



> he has also seen a ton of GK plastics


----------



## GrizBe

That said, there were plenty of rumours about the DE plastics months ago and what they'd contain...

IE, spikey, bones though loin cloths etc...


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> That said, there were plenty of rumours about the DE plastics months ago and what they'd contain...
> 
> IE, spikey, bones though loin cloths etc...


There is a world of difference between a friend or employee getting a brief glimpse of new stuff, or hearing a rumour and GW themselves showing things off whilst at the same time having a zero tolerance policy on letting rumours get out


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> I asked every single person at Games Day about GK and SoB, I only got some cryptic answers in the form of "we cant say".


Perhaps I'm guilty of wishful thinking, or reading more into something than is actually there, but this comment raises my spirits. I believe if it was still a long way off, they may well have said something along the lines of "Don't hold your breath". Instead, by saying they can't say anything, they in effect are admitting there is something to hide.

Of course, they may be like politicians and the only way to confirm something is happening is hearing an outright denial that anything is happening .


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Snip


Twice the size of a dread? That would make for a pretty interesting piece on the field, visually.


----------



## Katie Drake

Twice the size of a Dreadnought isn't all that much bigger than a Penitent Engine, at least as far as height goes.


----------



## GrizBe

And if as rumours go, it meant to have the same stats as an Avatar, something of that size would make sense.


----------



## Vhalyar

That's possible; to be honest I've never seen a penitent engine by virtue of no one around me playing Witch Hunters.


----------



## coke123

Tuatara said:


> Perhaps I'm guilty of wishful thinking, or reading more into something than is actually there, but this comment raises my spirits. I believe if it was still a long way off, they may well have said something along the lines of "Don't hold your breath". Instead, by saying they can't say anything, they in effect are admitting there is something to hide.
> 
> Of course, they may be like politicians and the only way to confirm something is happening is hearing an outright denial that anything is happening .


That's what I was thinking too. Whenever I've asked people (mainly the staff at my FLGS, so they're not exactly high up, but anyway) they always tend to say, "I can't give specifics, but it's definitely not X", etc. They didn't deny it, so then it must be true!:biggrin:



Katie Drake said:


> Twice the size of a Dreadnought isn't all that much bigger than a Penitent Engine, at least as far as height goes.





GrizBe said:


> And if as rumours go, it meant to have the same stats as an Avatar, something of that size would make sense.


Yeah, but size goes in three dimensions. Dreadnoughts are freaking fat, imagine doubling their girth. Since they're being driven, the only similar units we have to go off of are the penitent engine, dreadnought, and Eldar War Walker, unless I'm forgetting something, so I'd imagine they'd be about the same size. Really, this unit is only to get around the cries of unfluffiness about GK not liking Dreads, so this machine is really just going to be a dreadnought at heart. The Avatar is the same height as a dread, but much skinnier, which is something you can't really do with another walker.

Wait, what? Same stats as the Avatar? Does that include WS10?


----------



## Mathai

Ork Killa Kans and Deffdreads are along the same lines as well right? I cant remember which is bigger, but the one that is has some good bulk to it right? And would that mean that they no longer would employ Dreadnoughts in the new book?

Anywhoo, to my original intent in this post: I dont know if this is the right spot, but as best I can figure it is here I should ask this. I am new to the anxiously awaiting any news on a new codex as I originally started to play just as my first love the Eldar came out with their shiniest and newest codex. My other love is the Grey Knights these days, and the energy of having a new 'dex is quite fun for me I must admit. I've been reading the Omnibus and everything =)

ANywhoo, My wondering was on Special Characters, and how they come to be. Brother Captian Stern is alot of fun fluff wise, but I never can find a spot for him in my lists, and I was wondering what exactly is the process for making play stats for SC's, and if they ever bother to add new ones to the mix? A Grand Master Mandulis might be just the thing to make me overjoyed to the point of rebuying every single unit I have just to have an army that matches him in every way. But I dont know if I should even have whispers of thought on that being a possibility or not.


----------



## Tuatara

Mathai said:


> ANywhoo, My wondering was on Special Characters, and how they come to be. Brother Captian Stern is alot of fun fluff wise, but I never can find a spot for him in my lists, and I was wondering what exactly is the process for making play stats for SC's, and if they ever bother to add new ones to the mix? A Grand Master Mandulis might be just the thing to make me overjoyed to the point of rebuying every single unit I have just to have an army that matches him in every way. But I dont know if I should even have whispers of thought on that being a possibility or not.


Stern is a little expensive for what you get and the fact that you have to play him as is in the codex, limits any options you have. You're better off beefing up a regular BC. Coteaz, the only other SC in the GK codex, is also very expensive and limiting. A shame really as I would love to use them. We have a tournament early next year where you must have a SC in your list. I'm hoping there will be a few more to choose from before that happens. 

Tempusfugitives.co.uk has some nice SCs for GKs for one of their tournaments. I think they made them up as they had some skills and rules usually associated with other chapters. But they were cool.


----------



## coke123

Mathai said:


> ANywhoo, My wondering was on Special Characters, and how they come to be. Brother Captian Stern is alot of fun fluff wise, but I never can find a spot for him in my lists, and I was wondering what exactly is the process for making play stats for SC's, and if they ever bother to add new ones to the mix? A Grand Master Mandulis might be just the thing to make me overjoyed to the point of rebuying every single unit I have just to have an army that matches him in every way. But I dont know if I should even have whispers of thought on that being a possibility or not.


If the current marine 'dexes are anything to go off, ICs tend to cost around 200pts, have above average WS and BS, and then have an above average piece of wargear specific to them, backed up by some standard piece of wargear, and then a nice piece of armour. In this points cost some buff for the army is also often granted, such as chapter tactics for the various vanilla heroes (e.g. Shrike gives marines fleet, Lysander makes the army stubborn, etc) or they will change the FoC entry for some appropriate unit (I believe BA's Dante makes saguinary guard troops.) This seems to be the way most codicies are heading with their SC's. I believe many guard SC's follow a similar format to the marine ones I've described above.

Apparently whispers in the warp have said Stern is losing IC status, and will become an 'upgrade character' for terminators, much like Telion is for Vanilla marine scouts. I'm certain Stickmonkey said this, although if I'm wrong I've probably misinterpreted something that he actually said. If I have misinterpreted, this is not news, I am not a rumour monger. If this is true the current vanilla Marine upgrade characters cost 50 and 70pts. They give some nice buffs to their units, but aren't that great themselves. I'd expect Stern to be pretty ace in combat, and give buffs to the rest of his unit, so I'd hazard a guess at 100-120pts to field him, or they just give him 56 kinds of awesomeness and make him keep his current price tag, or even increase it, should his abilities warrant it. But I do agree, he is currently overpriced- costs the same as a grand master, has one less attack and wound, and has wargear that no sane man would ever pick by themselves, unless playing against daemons (that grimoire is just stupid). On top of all this, he has an ability to give your opponent re-rolls!? WTF? This is why I don't use SC's...

Edit: They most certainly like to add new ones to the mix- again looking at the marine 'dex we have new to this edition (as far as I know)- Vulkan He'Stan, and I think perhaps Kor'Sarro Khan, and I don't know if Cato Sicarus was in the last one. They also added the Master of the Forge, although he's not a SC.


----------



## DonFer

At some point in the rumour mill, it was said that Stern wasn't going to make the cut. But if memory serves me correctly this rumour was dismissed. After that i read somewhere that he was going to have a major overhaul. Then the rumours about him stopped. So not sure if he's in the new codex or any other IC for that matter.


----------



## coke123

DonFer said:


> So not sure if he's in the new codex or any other IC for that matter.


Wait, no ICs? Surely you mean SCs?


----------



## DonFer

Oh no sorry, i did not meant no IC at all, I meant I was not sure if there was going to be any other known IC for the GKs or Stern. 

Sorry for the mistake.:victory:


----------



## Azezel

I find the Dark Eldar Pain Points (or whatever) very encouraging. The fact that a modern 5e 'dex has a rule like that means that there's a chance the sisters might keep the Faith Point system.

It also seems to indicate a general move away from the dumbing-down that seemed to prevail for a while there.


----------



## DonFer

I see the new Dark Eldar and it is remarkable how good the plastic minis are. This gives me hope that we're gonna get great new GK models too. If I haven't started a BA army I'd probably went for DE, but alas I like SM better... until GKs come out that is...:grin:


----------



## GrizBe

Is anyone else hoping for some more proper GK characters? Really the only one they had was Stern, then some =I= characters...


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> I find the Dark Eldar Pain Points (or whatever) very encouraging. The fact that a modern 5e 'dex has a rule like that means that there's a chance the sisters might keep the Faith Point system.
> 
> It also seems to indicate a general move away from the dumbing-down that seemed to prevail for a while there.


Was there ever a hint at them losing Faith Points? Although would this suggest that Faith Points would now act as a kill tally ability? Because that doesn't make much sense to me. Unless it was based on the amount of sisterd that have died i.e. once ten SoB models have been removed, all SoB get furious assault, etc.


----------



## Azezel

There's been a lot of speculation that Faith Points were counter-revolutionary and not in keeping with the current streamlined dumbed-down-for-the-kids style of codices. I think most people who've expressed opinions expected them to go. GW no longer believed that players were able to count and keep track of a point pool.

But the new DE suggest that GW are not actually aversed to making players keep count of some sort of points-based resource. Which is good news.

I'm not for a moment suggesting a kill-tally based faith system - just feeling reassured that a points-based mechanic can still exist in 5e.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Well this sort of system is already in place with Chaos Daemons and the Nurgle Herald SC (Epidemus?) so having it in another Codex just shows that it's not a game process that's going any where for a while.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

One of Stickmonkeys earliest rumours suggested that Faith Points were gone, allot of people immediately thought this mean Acts of Faith were gone and the whole no acts of faith debacle started. This is why I put it up 2 times in the FAQ on the first page.

So basically Acts of Faith are still in but their implementation might be different to how the current system works. Many including myself have speculated that maybe they work like IG orders but for every successful AoF you do you get a -1 to the roll, once you fail you cant do more AoF that phase. This system would allow you to have infinite AoF but prevents you from spamming it too much.

I dont think the AoF system with points etc in itself is too complicated to the player using them but it sure as hell am for your opponent if they dont know how they work.
Its really easy to cheat by saying you just need to either roll higher or lower than the squad size and that you get to chose. So if you have 20 Sisters and want to give them Inv saves you just say I need to roll lower on 2D6 though the rule for it is actually to roll higher than the group size.

I think the Idea of AoF is a cool one, though it could use some improvements. Most of the effects are really cool and most of all useful. One thing that annoys me though is when people say Divine Guidance gives Rending, AP1 IS NOT THE SAME AS RENDING, NOR IS IT SIMILAR!!!
Rending : Ignores Armour Save and +D3 for armour penetration
AP1: Penetrates Armour up to an Armour Save of 1 (which doesn't exist) and gives +1 on an armour penetration roll.

I have for the longest time suggested Sisters should get army wide Stubborn rule since ALL of the stories and fluff Ive read atleast suggests they rather die standing than letting their enemies past. Fearless doesnt make sense but Stubborn does since thats what basically what the Book of Saint Lucius gives anyways.
Now with Dark Eldar getting army wide Night Vision I see no problem with with Sisters losing the Immunity to Minor Psychic power (which no doubt is calculated into their points cost) and gaining Stubborn.

Then again Night Vision and Stubborn arnt really on the same level of usefulness...


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Its really easy to cheat by saying you just need to either roll higher or lower than the squad size and that you get to chose. So if you have 20 Sisters and want to give them Inv saves you just say I need to roll lower on 2D6 though the rule for it is actually to roll higher than the group size.


Not that you ever would. Right?:wink:

Although the idea of AoF as orders is a novel one, I don't see how it could account for martyrdom. To me it seems that there should be some way of accounting for seeing your comrades fall in glorious battle in the name of the emperor. Then again, fluff shouldn't get in the way of game mechanic. This may overcomplicate matters...


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> One of Stickmonkeys earliest rumours suggested that Faith Points were gone, allot of people immediately thought this mean Acts of Faith were gone and the whole no acts of faith debacle started. This is why I put it up 2 times in the FAQ on the first page.
> 
> So basically Acts of Faith are still in but their implementation might be different to how the current system works. Many including myself have speculated that maybe they work like IG orders but for every successful AoF you do you get a -1 to the roll, once you fail you cant do more AoF that phase. This system would allow you to have infinite AoF but prevents you from spamming it too much.


Mm - this is the sort of thing I was talking about. I quite like the current system and the DE news gives me hope that it may yet live.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont think the AoF system with points etc in itself is too complicated to the player using them but it sure as hell am for your opponent if they dont know how they work.


That's the truth. I always make a point of explaining the system to people I haven't played before (if someone's not played me before, I assume they've never seen a Battle Sister on the table before, and I've yet to be wrong).



MadCowCrazy said:


> I think the Idea of AoF is a cool one, though it could use some improvements. Most of the effects are really cool and most of all useful. One thing that annoys me though is when people say Divine Guidance gives Rending, AP1 IS NOT THE SAME AS RENDING, NOR IS IT SIMILAR!!!
> Rending : Ignores Armour Save and +D3 for armour penetration
> AP1: Penetrates Armour up to an Armour Save of 1 (which doesn't exist) and gives +1 on an armour penetration roll.


I'm with you on the Rending thing - though I've given up reminding oponants that it's not really Rending. I just play it as-written and let the other guy call it what he wants.

One thing I would like to see is additional acts. Re-rolls to save or to wound would be nice. Too often I find I have a few points left at the end of the game, not because I didn't need them, but because there was nothing I could usefully do with them.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I have for the longest time suggested Sisters should get army wide Stubborn rule since ALL of the stories and fluff Ive read atleast suggests they rather die standing than letting their enemies past. Fearless doesnt make sense but Stubborn does since thats what basically what the Book of Saint Lucius gives anyways.


Actually, the Book of St. Lucius is _better_ than Stubborn. I'd much rather have a BosL with every Veteran than army-wide Stubborn.

In fact - complete wishlisting here... Instead of giving the Sisters some sort of army-wide morale rule, I'd give them an army wide rule _negating_ funky morale malarky.

Any enemy unit within 6" of a unit with the Sororitas rule does not benefit from Stubborn, Fearless, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Mob Rule etc.

'cos I don't care who you are, everybody should be scared of the wrath of the Emperor


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Penetrates Armour up to an Armour Save of 1 (which doesn't exist) and gives +1 on an armour penetration roll.


+1 to the Vehicle Damage table actually, but yeah.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> +1 to the Vehicle Damage table actually, but yeah.


Lol, wanted to quote but pressed Edit instead, sorry about that. Didnt change anything in your message if you are wondering about the edit notice.

+1 on dmg table is what I ment, Im still tired I guess


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lol, wanted to quote but pressed Edit instead, sorry about that. Didnt change anything in your message if you are wondering about the edit notice.
> 
> +1 on dmg table is what I ment, Im still tired I guess


oMg admin aboose! :laugh:


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Any enemy unit within 6" of a unit with the Sororitas rule does not benefit from Stubborn, Fearless, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Mob Rule etc.
> 
> 'cos I don't care who you are, everybody should be scared of the wrath of the Emperor


Except that models with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics are the emperor's finest, and hence wouldn't be scared...


----------



## Necrosis

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lol, wanted to quote but pressed Edit instead, sorry about that. Didnt change anything in your message if you are wondering about the edit notice.
> 
> +1 on dmg table is what I ment, Im still tired I guess


Actually you can kind of argue it that it doesn't give you a +1 dmg on the vehicle damage table. Cause it say's roll to wound not pen. That being said I would never call or stop a person from using this against me. I'm just playing devil advocate.


----------



## Winterous

Necrosis said:


> Actually you can kind of argue it that it doesn't give you a +1 dmg on the vehicle damage table. Cause it say's roll to wound not pen. That being said I would never call or stop a person from using this against me. I'm just playing devil advocate.


.........
What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Necrosis

Winterous said:


> .........
> What the hell are you talking about?


The act of faith Divine Guidance. You guys have all been saying it gives you a 1+ on the vehicle damage chart when you roll a 6 cause it's ap1. Now a roll to wound and a roll to pen are different rolls. If you read the act of faith carefully you will realize it only says a roll to wound and not pen. Thus you would not actually get a bonus verse vehicles with it (for being ap1). Do you understand now?


----------



## Winterous

Necrosis said:


> The act of faith Divine Guidance. You guys have all been saying it gives you a 1+ on the vehicle damage chart when you roll a 6 cause it's ap1. Now a roll to wound and a roll to pen are different rolls. If you read the act of faith carefully you will realize it only says a roll to wound and not pen. Thus you would not actually get a bonus verse vehicles with it (for being ap1). Do you understand now?


Ooh I follow now, I was only referring to AP1, so that's where I got confused.
Yeah, he makes a good point, that Act of Faith has no impact on vehicles.


----------



## oblivion8

> Any enemy unit within 6" of a unit with the Sororitas rule does not benefit from Stubborn, Fearless, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, Mob Rule etc.
> 
> 'cos I don't care who you are, everybody should be scared of the wrath of the Emperor


omg lol, that would be awesome if even for negating fear and stubborn.
I can just imagine the look on a daemon, or likewise players face as they fail their ld test and have to flee xD



> Although the idea of AoF as orders is a novel one, I don't see how it could account for martyrdom. To me it seems that there should be some way of accounting for seeing your comrades fall in glorious battle in the name of the emperor. Then again, fluff shouldn't get in the way of game mechanic. This may overcomplicate matters...


you could gain +1 for a aof roll of your choice for every veteran killed, +2 for squads of celsitians or seraphim and +3 for a canonness? and if someone like celestine was killed you could get +5 or something.... i dunno could work though...


----------



## coke123

oblivion8 said:


> omg lol, that would be awesome if even for negating fear and stubborn.
> I can just imagine the look on a daemon, or likewise players face as they fail their ld test and have to flee xD
> 
> you could gain +1 for a aof roll of your choice for every veteran killed, +2 for squads of celsitians or seraphim and +3 for a canonness? and if someone like celestine was killed you could get +5 or something.... i dunno could work though...


Hmm... this could work, although the current point system works better. For me the confusion comes mostly from the nature of the test taken (you know, either roll over or under squad size). This is where the bamboozling comes in for me, and as MCC said earlier, this does leave an opening for unscrupulous individuals to cheat. They should make the test a constant, probably just base it on leadership.

Although I must agree, watching a greater daemon wet himself and runaway from a bunch of women 1/8th of his size crying like a little crybaby girl does seem most satisfying to me!

Edit: and isn't St.Celestine like, unkillable like old one-eye- doesn't she just come back? you could get people sending her on constant kamikaze missions just to get bonuses for the AoF, and then resurrecting herself...


----------



## Azezel

Celestine doesn't always come back, and even if she does, it's not immediate - she gets placed in reserve and you must roll to see when she reappears.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Putting up my videos from Games Day on the front page now, enjoy


----------



## coke123

Thanks, man. I was excited to see that GK had a Razorback in the Forgeworld book- perhaps a hint at reasonably priced transports for them? And those DE pics were sweet!


----------



## oblivion8

> Hmm... this could work, although the current point system works better. For me the confusion comes mostly from the nature of the test taken (you know, either roll over or under squad size). This is where the bamboozling comes in for me, and as MCC said earlier, this does leave an opening for unscrupulous individuals to cheat. They should make the test a constant, probably just base it on leadership.


ya the lower higher thing can get a bit annoying to remember. However I think that the fact that all of them are done at different times is more confusing for me, as I always forget to do shield of faith at the beginning of my turn  should be done when a unit declares a charge or shooting attk or something (shield), as the fact you have to guess what unit will be attk'd is kind of unfluffy, the ones in battle would get the shield, not the ones that the enemy decided last second not to shoot at...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Thanks, man. I was excited to see that GK had a Razorback in the Forgeworld book- perhaps a hint at reasonably priced transports for them? And those DE pics were sweet!


Well, its not from the newest IA, its from Siege of Wraks part 2 I believe.
Imperial armour 2 has some GK and Sisters stuff, the Repressor for sisters being the most interesting one, but other than that there isn't much in any of the other books.

Pretty much every other race has had tons of new units added to them through IA except for Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Necrons and Dark Eldar. Necrons and DE having received 0 as far as I know, sisters getting the Repressor (FW Exorcist doesn't count since its not a new vehicle) and GK getting a Razorback with psycannons and some land raider variants. This is all they have received in 11 IA books as far as I am aware, I only have the first 5 so correct me if Im wrong.

Would be cool if they did a Assault on Sanctuary 101 IA with Necrons and Sisters of Battle, they could tie it all in together with a Assault on Sanctuary boxed set with Sisters vs Necrons, the book by James Swallows about it and a new necron and sisters codex released after each other next year.

Would make perfect sense to me but when it comes to GW making sense isn't really part of how they work.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, its not from the newest IA, its from Siege of Wraks part 2 I believe.
> Imperial armour 2 has some GK and Sisters stuff, the Repressor for sisters being the most interesting one, but other than that there isn't much in any of the other books.
> 
> Pretty much every other race has had tons of new units added to them through IA except for Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Necrons and Dark Eldar. Necrons and DE having received 0 as far as I know, sisters getting the Repressor (FW Exorcist doesn't count since its not a new vehicle) and GK getting a Razorback with psycannons and some land raider variants. This is all they have received in 11 IA books as far as I am aware, I only have the first 5 so correct me if Im wrong.
> 
> Would be cool if they did a Assault on Sanctuary 101 IA with Necrons and Sisters of Battle, they could tie it all in together with a Assault on Sanctuary boxed set with Sisters vs Necrons, the book by James Swallows about it and a new necron and sisters codex released after each other next year.
> 
> Would make perfect sense to me but when it comes to GW making sense isn't really part of how they work.


Well, in regards to DE not getting IA rules, the gut said that IA 11 will be about Eldar, so with their new release I naturally assume that DE will be included in it. A Sanctuary 101 based IA would be awesome, and makes so much sense that the logic processing centre of my brain is beginning to hemorrhage. Although if it did happen I would expect them to stagger it out, releasing the IA book maybe a year after the codicies get redone.

And can someone please tell me where this Sisters vs Necrons boxed set idea originated from? Because I'd heard rumours that the next boxed set would be Space Marines vs Eldar. Although I may be placing too much significance on what is probably pure conjecture.


----------



## DonFer

If I'm not mistaken it's not a rumour, is more of a wish. This is because of the new BL book that will feature SoB and Necrons. Both races are waiting for a new dex, and rumours say next year is the year for both. So there you go.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> And can someone please tell me where this Sisters vs Necrons boxed set idea originated from? Because I'd heard rumours that the next boxed set would be Space Marines vs Eldar. Although I may be placing too much significance on what is probably pure conjecture.


Im the one who started that, you can find it in the rumours section 
Im basing it on what Ive gathered so far, from what I can tell we might see Necrons next summer and Sisters next autumn. So I figured a boxed set for them would be perfect since the black library book about Sanctuary 101 will be released in September next year.

So if they did it they could do a huge combo release like GW usually likes to do.
Assault on Sanctuary 101 boxed set
Sanctuary 101 book by James Swallows
Imperial Armour 12 : Sanctuary 101

Makes sense to me but then again Im crazy :crazy:


----------



## DonFer

MadCowCrazy said:


> Makes sense to me but then again Im crazy :crazy:


Then all you need is this :grin::










BTW thanks for the videos and the whole effort of going all the way to England to get some info for us Heretics. Cheers mate!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nice picture, u draw that? Should have that put on a Tshirt for next years Games Day 

Also Id like to say I only went to Games Day to try and find GK and SoB rumours, I didnt participate in any of the events I just went around asking anyone and everyone who was willing to talk to me and asked them about Sisters and GK. Not much was said, only the rumoured GK codex for Jan and the background guys kinda hinted at that Sisters might be worked on as we speak.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Im the one who started that, you can find it in the rumours section
> Im basing it on what Ive gathered so far, from what I can tell we might see Necrons next summer and Sisters next autumn. So I figured a boxed set for them would be perfect since the black library book about Sanctuary 101 will be released in September next year.
> 
> So if they did it they could do a huge combo release like GW usually likes to do.
> Assault on Sanctuary 101 boxed set
> Sanctuary 101 book by James Swallows
> Imperial Armour 12 : Sanctuary 101
> 
> Makes sense to me but then again Im crazy :crazy:


Hmm... I've said it on this thread before, and I'll say it again, I just can't see SoB replacing marines in a boxed set. Then again, I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong. The Sanctuary 101 IA book is a fantastic idea though.

And I'd like to remind you that there is a thin line between craziness and genius, MadCow.


----------



## GrizBe

You know what would be a cool idea... 'Variant Boxes'. Basically the main boxed set of the game and rules etc, but then with variant armies availible as limited editions... 

That way you'd still have the main seller of the Marines Vs whoever, but then you could do a Sisters Vs Necrons or Grey Knights Vs Chaos Demons for instance... all you'd have to do is slap some different sprues in, and make a varient mission book with the different rules in for the different armies.. and bingo... you make alot more people happy.


----------



## boreas

GrizBe said:


> You know what would be a cool idea... 'Variant Boxes'. Basically the main boxed set of the game and rules etc, but then with variant armies availible as limited editions...
> 
> That way you'd still have the main seller of the Marines Vs whoever, but then you could do a Sisters Vs Necrons or Grey Knights Vs Chaos Demons for instance... all you'd have to do is slap some different sprues in, and make a varient mission book with the different rules in for the different armies.. and bingo... you make alot more people happy.


That's exactly the mindset that should prevail at GW. I think they have made a good move with the apocalypse boxes and those starter sets would be in the same vein.

Phil


----------



## Azezel

GrizBe said:


> You know what would be a cool idea... 'Variant Boxes'. Basically the main boxed set of the game and rules etc, but then with variant armies availible as limited editions...
> 
> That way you'd still have the main seller of the Marines Vs whoever, but then you could do a Sisters Vs Necrons or Grey Knights Vs Chaos Demons for instance... all you'd have to do is slap some different sprues in, and make a varient mission book with the different rules in for the different armies.. and bingo... you make alot more people happy.


The boxsets are designed to get new people into the hobby, playing Space Marines.

I'm given to understand that GW takes a loss on every Assault on Black Reach sold - I'd believe it.


Even if that's not the case, limited editions of anything in plastic are a terrible idea. A single mold costs £50k - £75k. A boxset requires several molds.

Even if GW doesn't produce new molds for the boxset, you're still asking tehm to sell existing sprues for a fraction of the current price. It's just not a good idea.

The closest you'll ever get is a battleforce - and that uses the normal molds, is only very slightly cheaper than buying separately and is certain to contain at least one unit that nobody would ever want.


----------



## Tuatara

Azezel said:


> The boxsets are designed to get new people into the hobby, playing Space Marines.
> 
> I'm given to understand that GW takes a loss on every Assault on Black Reach sold - I'd believe it.


But what a marketing ploy. I did a quick back of a napkin tally of what I have spent so far......it was not pretty (the paints and brushes alone came to over NZD$500!). It's crack on a stick.


----------



## GrizBe

Azezel said:


> The boxsets are designed to get new people into the hobby, playing Space Marines.
> 
> I'm given to understand that GW takes a loss on every Assault on Black Reach sold - I'd believe it.
> 
> 
> Even if that's not the case, limited editions of anything in plastic are a terrible idea. A single mold costs £50k - £75k. A boxset requires several molds.
> 
> Even if GW doesn't produce new molds for the boxset, you're still asking tehm to sell existing sprues for a fraction of the current price. It's just not a good idea.
> 
> The closest you'll ever get is a battleforce - and that uses the normal molds, is only very slightly cheaper than buying separately and is certain to contain at least one unit that nobody would ever want.



You'd not need new moulds, since they'd already exist in the plastic boxed sets of troops already on sale. You'd just have to swap them out for different ones... for example, the army boxes are exactly the same sprues as in the seperate boxes, just collected together.

But... what about people who don't want to start spaces marines, but want the starter rules etc? Variant box sets would target them, plus... veteran players would buy them for the rules and dice etc, and to expand their current armies, or to try new ones. They'd appeal to a wide range of buyers.

Plus the idiots who complusive buy things just because they're unique.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I'm given to understand that GW takes a loss on every Assault on Black Reach sold - I'd believe it.


not just black reach, all of the recent starter sets are loss makers,
if you had multiple different boxsets then you wouldn't be getting new models inside and you would get less inside, 
whilst most probably paying more


----------



## Azezel

GrizBe said:


> You'd not need new moulds, since they'd already exist in the plastic boxed sets of troops already on sale. You'd just have to swap them out for different ones... for example, the army boxes are exactly the same sprues as in the seperate boxes, just collected together.
> 
> But... what about people who don't want to start spaces marines, but want the starter rules etc? Variant box sets would target them, plus... veteran players would buy them for the rules and dice etc, and to expand their current armies, or to try new ones. They'd appeal to a wide range of buyers.
> 
> Plus the idiots who complusive buy things just because they're unique.





Azezel said:


> Even if GW doesn't produce new molds for the boxset, you're still asking tehm to sell existing sprues for a fraction of the current price. It's just not a good idea.


Island of Blood - the most recent boxset goes for £60 and has 27 High Elves and 47 Scaven of varying kinds.

If you collect High elves or Scaven - ace - you're going to save a ton of money over the next few years. A mate of mine has built an entire (and very well done) Deathwing* army using nothing but Black Reach termies and greenstuff. I can't imagine anyone has bought a propper deffkopta model when Black Reach deffkoptas are so cheap.

GW aren't exactly happy about this, but it gets people into the hobby and for each game system, it only affects two armies (and they make the boxset models slightly crappier and single-pose so people are tempted to buy the 'propper' ones).

GW don't want veteran players to buy the damned boxset. They want us to buy the individual packages.

You're asking GW to sell propper, full-detailed poseable models - for every army - for around 80p a model (compared to £2 - £2.50 a model now) (Not counting the rulebook, dice and templates). I'd like that too, but it just isn't going to happen, and if it did, GW would rapidly find themselves out of business.


My own preference would be a kind of build-your-own-battleforce thing. An option to buy sprues direct. GW save money on packaging and shipping, ad we get what we want - with a discount for bulk.

Oh, and plastic Sisters and Eldar, but that goes without saying.


*If your entire battle plan is 'I have 2+ armour saves' for the love of god do not fight the Sisters of Battle, that's all I'm sayin'.


----------



## boreas

Bulk sprue direct order... That would also be great! My my, please GW management, come read this thread!

Phil


----------



## DonFer

I really don't think that GW is unhappy with their boxsets. It is really meant to be a cheap way to introduce you to the game, since you get everything in one box. 
Wanna go pro? then prepare to spend more money. 
Wanna keep it casual? then buy the box set and stay there. 

If you think of it, selling these boxed sets is a business opportunity for GW, because they lure new players with something cheap, and nice (models and goodies) and create a very potential buyer. 

Say a new player wants into the game. He has three options:

1. Buy the Box set by himself, thus staying pretty happy since he doesn't need to buy anything else for a while.

2. Buy the Box set and sell the part he'll no use, thus recovering some money. But in the long run that money WILL be spent in new products. Of course if he's staying casual, and doesn't want to be involved in the game then he'll be stuck with one army and almost zero felxibility for casual games. 

3. Buy the box with a friend and spliting everything in half. I think this is not too great of a deal since one is going to have to buy the rulebook (in a world where phtocopies are non existant...:biggrin, the templates, the dice, and others. Eventually both friends will revert to case 2.


Sorry for the edit, I just pressed the wrong button.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> And I'd like to remind you that there is a thin line between craziness and genius, MadCow.


I bounce back and forth between those two daily


----------



## coke123

Yeah, the limited edition box set is a cool idea, and hence GW won't use it.

I don't see how it'd necessarily be economically unviable for them; they've already got large sets like the SM Megaforce which they sell for $AUD285. They'd probably sell more boxes of a similar size for a similar price if they had two smaller, different armies instead of one large one, as people could then go halfsies on the set to get the army they want.

And since we're targeting this at veteran players, they wouldn't necessarily need to include the rulebook or dice, which would reduce price. so you could (maybe) get two roughly battleforce sized forces for around $285AUD, without dice and templates and all that, which when you split the armies between two players comes out as slightly less than a battleforce each.

And it wouldn't be a matter of having to create new moulds (unless they want to insert limited edition models to tempt impulse buys from collectors), they'd just repackage the current individual box sets.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer,so whilst we're on the subject- Does anyone know if GK will finally have a battleforce?



MadCowCrazy said:


> I bounce back and forth between those two daily


Don't we all?


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> Yeah, the limited edition box set is a cool idea, and hence GW won't use it.
> 
> I don't see how it'd necessarily be economically unviable for them; they've already got large sets like the SM Megaforce which they sell for . They'd probably sell more boxes of a similar size for a similar price if they had two smaller, different armies instead of one large one, as people could then go halfsies on the set to get the army they want.


Well, I'm not sure that they would sell all that many combi-battleforces, for want of a better word - but even if that were the case, it's hardly in GW's interest. 

A big boxset with two armies in it is not economically viable for the reasons stated above. GW want (need) you to buy individual units or part of units, each with an individual profit margin.

Battleforces and megaforces exist for two reasons:

a) If you have AU$285 in your hand right now - GW would rather you spent it all with them, now, than buy a box of Space Marines, paint them and then get bored of the hobby and blow the rest on strippers (or whatever).

So they offer big-price deals that encourage you to make instant, large-scale purchases. They'd much rather have AU$285 today, than a chance of having AU$300 over the next six months. This makes perfect sense when you bare in mind how important the Little Timmy market is to GW. Little Timmy gets bored fast so they have to get his money _today_!

b) All battle/megaforces contain a couple of worthless units, and/or exclude a couple of critical units. GW are hoping you won't mind paying for the worthless stuff if you think you're getting a good deal on the stuff you want - and if you don't do the maths, you may very well think you got a good deal. GW also hope that, in addition to buying the Battleforce, you'll have to come back and buy that Land Raider to go with it.

Remember - they are a business, they have shareholders and accountants - they aren't there to make us happy. In fact, it's not too far from the truth to say it's their job to make us as unhappy as possible without _quite_ driving us away. It's a hell of a balancing act.



coke123 said:


> And since we're targeting this at veteran players, they wouldn't necessarily need to include the rulebook or dice, which would reduce price. so you could (maybe) get two roughly battleforce sized forces for around $285AUD, without dice and templates and all that, which when you split the armies between two players comes out as slightly less than a battleforce each.


So why should GW sell you and your mate a battleforce each for slightly less than the price of a battleforce each?



coke123 said:


> And it wouldn't be a matter of having to create new moulds (unless they want to insert limited edition models to tempt impulse buys from collectors), they'd just repackage the current individual box sets.


They'd much rather you buy the individual boxes. That's why the starter boxes have inferior models in them.



coke123 said:


> I've asked this before but didn't get an answer,so whilst we're on the subject- Does anyone know if GK will finally have a battleforce?


If they get redone in plastic (and the seem to have already been redone in plastic) it seems likely. Expect some troops, some termies, maybe a razorback or dread and something worthless like stormtroopers or daemonhosts. Definately no HQ, Stormraven or Land Raider.


----------



## coke123

Yeah, you're right, you've convinced me. Some of us forget that this isn't some magical utopia where GW follows us around eager to wipe our arses with golden toilet paper.

I'm excited by the prospect of a Daemonhunter Battleforce. And I wouldn't call Stormtroopers useless, especially if they're being brought in line with the IG ones. They have AP3 guns, don't they? And I'd be just plain pissed if they dare try to include those freaking daemonhosts in that set.


----------



## Kettu

And I'm back and...

Damn it.

By the looks of things the best we got was that they 'are coming'.


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> And I wouldn't call Stormtroopers useless, especially if they're being brought in line with the IG ones. They have AP3 guns, don't they? And I'd be just plain pissed if they dare try to include those freaking daemonhosts in that set.


Ah - a confusion in terms - when I said 'useless' I was speaking as a player of a pure army (SoB in my case, though I know someone who plays pure GK and would consider stormies just as useless).

I was thinking - not even conciously, I suspect - about a Grey Knights battleforce, wherin any model that's not a Grey Knight is useless (since it doesn't belong in a pure Grey Knight army).

IG stormtroopers a pretty scary, but I wouldn't use them if they were AP1 and made out of solid gold.


Oh, and there is one way to make deamonhosts cool. Another chap I know didn't have any daemonhost models, but wanted to use one in his army. What he does have is an ancient miniatures game about victorian time-travellers hunting dinosaurs. One of his models is two men in top hats wearing a pantomime-horse style dinosaur costume (decoy, don't you know).

Now that's a cool daemonhost.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Oh, and there is one way to make deamonhosts cool. Another chap I know didn't have any daemonhost models, but wanted to use one in his army. What he does have is an ancient miniatures game about victorian time-travellers hunting dinosaurs. One of his models is two men in top hats wearing a pantomime-horse style dinosaur costume (decoy, don't you know).
> 
> Now that's a cool daemonhost.


This is quite possibly the single most incredible thing I have ever heard.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> What he does have is an ancient miniatures game about victorian time-travellers hunting dinosaurs. One of his models is two men in top hats wearing a pantomime-horse style dinosaur costume (decoy, don't you know).


This one?


----------



## Azezel

That's the one! I seem to remember they had top hats... Will have to ask next time I see him.

His flat is full of miniatures everywhere you look - from from a hundred different systems - including at least 500 points of every 40k army. And he's not aversed to a little proxying. F'rex he turned one of my sisters into a chaos spawn and whipped out a Dark Young of Shub Niggurath.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Ah - a confusion in terms - when I said 'useless' I was speaking as a player of a pure army (SoB in my case, though I know someone who plays pure GK and would consider stormies just as useless).
> 
> I was thinking - not even conciously, I suspect - about a Grey Knights battleforce, wherin any model that's not a Grey Knight is useless (since it doesn't belong in a pure Grey Knight army).
> 
> IG stormtroopers a pretty scary, but I wouldn't use them if they were AP1 and made out of solid gold.
> 
> 
> Oh, and there is one way to make deamonhosts cool. Another chap I know didn't have any daemonhost models, but wanted to use one in his army. What he does have is an ancient miniatures game about victorian time-travellers hunting dinosaurs. One of his models is two men in top hats wearing a pantomime-horse style dinosaur costume (decoy, don't you know).
> 
> Now that's a cool daemonhost.


Ah, now I understand. Although I've never met someone who plays a 'pure' Gk or SoB army, they always seem to take a unit of stormtroopers that simply go to ground the whole game.

And holy shit that's an awesome Daemonhost! I wants it!


----------



## mahavira

coke123 said:


> Ah, now I understand. Although I've never met someone who plays a 'pure' Gk or SoB army, they always seem to take a unit of stormtroopers that simply go to ground the whole game.
> 
> And holy shit that's an awesome Daemonhost! I wants it!


Why in god's name would a WH player use Inquisitorial Storm Troopers? They're a grand total of one point cheaper than sisters, have inferior weapons and armor, and don't have faith. Unless you need a cheap unit to put an inquisitor or priest with, I can't conceive of any reason to do so. GK I can see, as individual gk's of the most basic sort are still absurdly expensive, but for SoB? The world is wide and filled with wonders, I see.


----------



## Katie Drake

mahavira said:


> Why in god's name would a WH player use Inquisitorial Storm Troopers? They're a grand total of one point cheaper than sisters, have inferior weapons and armor, and don't have faith. Unless you need a cheap unit to put an inquisitor or priest with, I can't conceive of any reason to do so. GK I can see, as individual gk's of the most basic sort are still absurdly expensive, but for SoB? The world is wide and filled with wonders, I see.


If all they're going to do is sit on an objective and go to ground when shot at, there's no reason to take Sisters over Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers can come in squads as small as five which works out to be considerably cheaper than a minimal squad of Sisters to do the same job.


----------



## Azezel

Precisely. Also you can buy a chimera for them - a useful vehicle even at the inflated price =][= armies must pay.


----------



## Imperious

mahavira said:


> Why in god's name would a WH player use Inquisitorial Storm Troopers? They're a grand total of one point cheaper than sisters, have inferior weapons and armor, and don't have faith. Unless you need a cheap unit to put an inquisitor or priest with, I can't conceive of any reason to do so. GK I can see, as individual gk's of the most basic sort are still absurdly expensive, but for SoB? The world is wide and filled with wonders, I see.


I agree that storm troopers are expensive. But I can give three reasons to your question on why to field them. 

Storm troopers: 

1) have deep strike
2) have the "special ops" rule - pg. 46 (IG codex)
3) look awesome (kasrkin models look even better)


----------



## Winterous

Imperious Rex said:


> I agree that storm troopers are expensive. But I can give three reasons to your question on why to field them.
> 
> Storm troopers:
> 
> 1) have deep strike
> 2) have the "special ops" rule - pg. 46 (IG codex)
> 3) look awesome (kasrkin models look even better)


INQUISITORIAL Storm Troopers.
The old shitty ones, with AP5 Lasguns.


----------



## Necrosis

Winterous said:


> INQUISITORIAL Storm Troopers.
> The old shitty ones, with AP5 Lasguns.


They may have ap5 lasgun but they can premeasure.


----------



## Winterous

Necrosis said:


> They may have ap5 lasgun but they can premeasure.





Imperious Rex said:


> I agree that storm troopers are expensive. But I can give three reasons to your question on why to field them.
> 
> Storm troopers:
> 
> 1) have deep strike
> 2) have the "special ops" rule - pg. 46 (IG codex)
> 3) look awesome (kasrkin models look even better)


He was talking about the wrong Storm Troopers, I wasn't saying that as a commentary on their performance, which is poor.


----------



## Imperious

Winterous said:


> INQUISITORIAL Storm Troopers.
> The old shitty ones, with AP5 Lasguns.


I'm aware of that. Inquisitorial STs are = to 4th edition IG STs. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that new inquisitorial STs would be identical to 5th edition IG STs?


----------



## Winterous

Imperious Rex said:


> I'm aware of that. Inquisitorial STs are = to 4th edition IG STs. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that new inquisitorial STs would be identical to 5th edition IG STs?


Yes, it's a logical assumption, but that's not how the rules work.
That's why Dark Angels have shitty Storm Shields and awesome Smoke Launchers.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Winterous said:


> Yes, it's a logical assumption, but that's not how the rules work.
> That's why Dark Angels have shitty Storm Shields and awesome Smoke Launchers.


But Eldar Harlequins=Dark Eldar Harlequins


----------



## Winterous

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> But Eldar Harlequins=Dark Eldar Harlequins


...Because they're writing it that way.


----------



## coke123

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> But Eldar Harlequins=Dark Eldar Harlequins


Do we know this for sure? I'd hold my tongue until we actually see the DE codex- The current Eldar codex is four years old now, and a lot has changed in the game since then. If we didn't have so many armies that were so very out of date I'd say they were about due for an update, but when I look at the list of armies that deserve it more (GK, SoB, DE, Necrons, BT, Tau) I suddenly feel that the Eldar codex should be fine for another year or so.

And whilst it can be expected, we probably shouldn't set in stone that =I= stormtroopers=IG stormtroopers. In IG they fill an elites spot, when in =I= they are troops, so there may need to be some balancing here. Of course this is pure conjecture, and I'd love to be wrong and take those lovely hot-shot lasguns as troops.


----------



## Azezel

Personally, I'd rather not see stormtroopers in the 'dex at all.

I realise that there are people who currently play a Daemon Hunters army, rather than a Grey Knights army but if the new Codex is called Codex: Grey Knights (and that's the rumour) then it probably shouldn't contain units from someone else's army.

To understand why, I offer this sentence from Codex: Witch Hunters.



Codex: Witch Hunters p.2 said:


> While the Sisters of Battle are exceptional warriors and can easily take to the field alone, it is when they are combined with the powerful troops at the disposal of an inquisitor that they really come into their own.


For those of you who don't speak weasel, that's GW's way of telling you that not having =][= units in your army is playing the game wrong.

I'm given to understand that Codex: Daemon Hunters is worse - it calls a pure GK army 'characterful'.

The long and the short of it is that both =][= 'dexes assume that the player will use mostly =][= stuff with a smattering of GK or SoB. Remember, these 'dexes were written as _advertisements_ for he Inquisitor 54mm game.

That assumption is odd because I don't think many of us picked DH/WH because Stormtroopers or daemonhosts were so cool. I suspect we thought (rightly) that GK/SoB were cool.

Which brings me on to the putative Codex: Grey Knights. If Stormtroopers are in there, there will be almost no incentive for the codex to provide a GK unit that can do whatever it is stormies are supposed to do these days (Hold objectives as before, one assumes). the Codex will assume you're happy to use Stormtroopers and once again, people who love GK will either have to admix their army with non GK models, or just accept that they are playing a _characterful_ army and sulk.

It's not like the rumoured =][= isn't a more natural home for Stormtroopers anyway.


----------



## coke123

Although I get where you're coming from, all reliable sources describe Codex:Grey Knights as GK with a much smaller inquisitorial presence. To me this implies the inclusion of at least both Storm Troopers and HQ level Inquisitors, and probably assassins too (although technically these are Officio Assassinorum). Hopefully they'll just cut the bullshit units out (daemonhosts, Arco Flagellants,etc).


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Hopefully they'll just cut the bullshit units out (daemonhosts, Arco Flagellants,etc).


Daemonhosts have no real place on the battlefield, but Arco Flagellants are fucking awesome, what are you saying??
War is what Arcos are MADE for, and they do killing shit quite well.


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## Azezel

The only place I've ever encountered Arc-Flagelants making sense is in (I think) the first Shira Calpurnia book.

Long story short, all of the outer areas of a starship were sealed off and a mob of arco-flagelants were let loose to scamper around and dismember anyone who boarded the ship, while the crew were safe in the sealed, inner part.

That's Arco-flagelants. Maniacal, post-sane mindless murderbots as lethal to your own side as they are to the other. They don't seem to have a place on the battlefield - though if you could air-drop them into an enemy fortification it would probably be really funny.

I don't like them, and probably would not use them, but Arco-Flagelants and Penitent Engines have a better claim to be in a hypothetical SoB Codex than =][= units.

On the subject of Grey Knights & Stormtroopers though... The Grey Knights are sent in to deal with things that would make even a normal Space Marine befoul his codpiece and lose his mind/lunch. This being the case, please to explain, GW, why the Grey Knights bring normal humans, however well indoctrinated, into battle with them?

The Ordo Malleus certainly need Stormtroopers, but it's a waste to send GK to help Stormtroopers do their job and it's idiocy to send Stormtroopers to help the GK do their job.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Daemonhosts have no real place on the battlefield, but Arco Flagellants are fucking awesome, what are you saying??
> War is what Arcos are MADE for, and they do killing shit quite well.


Call me crazy, but I like being able to control my squads. I don't really care how killy they are against standard infantry when all I have to do is shove a wraithlord/avatar/carnifex/other suitable MC even remotely near it in order to complete fuck them over. They are only S4, after all. And the icing on the cake: should they roll awesomely on their random attacks, or their random movement, they die!? I would concede that they were tough, except they've only got one wound. And all this for 35pts a pop! I guess they'd be alright against MEq's but that's about it.

If war is what Arco Flagellants are made for, then they were constructed in a small time sweatshop in central Shanghai, right in between a place selling bootleg DVDs and a characterful little street stall where you can pick your live chicken before they behead it for you. Although I'm not a WH player, so it's not really my problem.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

Azezel said:


> On the subject of Grey Knights & Stormtroopers though... The Grey Knights are sent in to deal with things that would make even a normal Space Marine befoul his codpiece and lose his mind/lunch. This being the case, please to explain, GW, why the Grey Knights bring normal humans, however well indoctrinated, into battle with them?
> 
> The Ordo Malleus certainly need Stormtroopers, but it's a waste to send GK to help Stormtroopers do their job and it's idiocy to send Stormtroopers to help the GK do their job.


But there are only a relatively small number of Grey Knights and given that (aside from a full blown daemon incursion/rift) they shouldnt be fighting most of the codexes out there. Even if you assume for example that the GK are after some daemonically possessed ork warlord they would need support from other imperial forces as killing boys is a waste of a grey knights talents. 

In many ways a pure grey knight force is a rarity and they are more likely to be seen as a squad or two as anti-daemon support to regular forces (for examples see first war of armageddon and the seige of vraks to name 2). Or to put it another way they dont send stormtroopers to help grey knights do their job, they send grey knights to help stormtroopers do theirs.


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## tu_shan82

coke123 said:


> If war is what Arco Flagellants are made for, then they were constructed in a small time sweatshop in central Shanghai, right in between a place selling bootleg DVDs and a characterful little street stall where you can pick your live chicken before they behead it for you.


Funny stuff man, thanks for the laugh. Have some rep.


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## Azezel

coke123 said:


> I guess they'd be alright against MEq's but that's about it.


Allow me to introduce you to my main maiden, the sister with the rending* Heavy Flamer.

Or to put it another way, killing Space Marine infantry is actually one of the few things we don't need help with.

Arco-flagelants always had srewy rules, but it's the fluff I object to. A hate-powered killing machine that disembowels everything slower than it is is not something I want to share a battlefield with.

*More complicated than that, but you get the idea.


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## MadCowCrazy

Has anyone of you thought that maybe codex GK will be Grey Knights and Inquisition while Codex SoB will be Sisters of Battle and Ecclesiarchy?

If they are going to put the Inquisitorial part from C:GK into C:SoB why not just combine the dexes into Forces of the Imperium with the restriction that you can only run one type of army or that SoB and GK cant be taken in the same FoC?

Dice Like Thunder keeps on saying that SoB will only get a WD update and nothing more, Ive heard this rumour elsewhere and I really hope its not true.


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## DonFer

I don't think GW will make the same mistake twice introducing IQ forces in both codex. What we know is that we're gonna get a C:GKs. With minor IQ units. Remember that the rumour mill says that the major focus is GK and not IQ. This can be also the case for SoB, leaving the IQ as secondary characters. 
It makes sense, since Inquisitors have never been that popular, and the only broken way to use them was 1 IQ and 2 Mystics (which BTW it's said will be eliminated in this new update).


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## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Has anyone of you thought that maybe codex GK will be Grey Knights and Inquisition while Codex SoB will be Sisters of Battle and Ecclesiarchy?
> 
> If they are going to put the Inquisitorial part from C:GK into C:SoB why not just combine the dexes into Forces of the Imperium with the restriction that you can only run one type of army or that SoB and GK cant be taken in the same FoC?
> 
> Dice Like Thunder keeps on saying that SoB will only get a WD update and nothing more, Ive heard this rumour elsewhere and I really hope its not true.


I don't claim to know what Dice Like Thunder is but , weak as they are, most rumours point to an actual 'dex, rather than White Dwarf shenanigans.

The rumours of a combined 'dex are also denied by pretty much everyone and his mate. And a good thing too. If they did justice to three armies in one codex I'd have to hire a team of eunuchs and a palanquin to carry it to the club for me. (Wouldn't be all bad, I could make them carry my minis too, pewter is heavy.)

From what rumours we have it sounds like GK will be GK+=][= and SoB will be SoB+Ecclesiarchy+=][= - though the SoB are far to far away to say anything beyond 'I guess X'.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dice Like Thunder is a podcast I listen to regularly, they are the first 40k podcast to reach 100 episodes.

Anyways, if they have Inquisitors in the SoB codex will they basically be the same as the ones in C:GK? Will there be slight differences like there are now?
Im sure allot of people would be disappointed if there were no Inquisitors in it but Id rather see just SoB and Ecclesiarchy. Then again maybe we will be seeing Ecchlesiarical Storm Troopers or something like that. Sisters getting Valkyries or Storm Ravens (doubt theyd get SR) would be really good though.


New bit from Stickmonkey


> Small bit.
> 
> The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc...
> 
> It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...
> 
> Something to chew on at least.


----------



## GrizBe

Interesting... but i'd rather that it was a permanent re-roll with a chaplin character upgrade rather then just a first round CC deal.


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## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Has anyone of you thought that maybe codex GK will be Grey Knights and Inquisition while Codex SoB will be Sisters of Battle and Ecclesiarchy?


the upcoming inquisition codex/expansion/supplement/whatever would be thinner then a bulimic schoolgirl if that was the case


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## DonFer

Bindi Baji said:


> the upcoming inquisition codex/expansion/supplement/whatever would be thinner then a bulimic schoolgirl if that was the case


Unless GW are really depicting GK as a full army, as Stickmonkey wrote once.


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## Mathai

While I would certainly not mind a pure GK army codex, I actually do hope they keep some Ordo Malleus presence in the book. Fluff wise, Grey Knights are so intrinsically linked to the inquisitors that I think their absence would feel a bit wrong. 

And remember, they make new codexes for old armies to change things. Just because Daemonhosts are rather unattractive in every sense of the word right now, that shouldnt be reason to say they will suck in a new codex as well. I may dislike the unit on the tabletop, but I like the idea of ensnaring a daemon and using it against my enemies. If they make them playable, people will play them more. And that would be the same for all Inquisitorial forces from the current codex. If they change their rules and stats, and make Inquisitors more usefull than currently, I think people wont mind having them in the codex as a less expensive supplement to their Grey Knights.


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## coke123

They'd also have to make Stormtroopers MUCH better, to be able to justify taking daemonhosts excluding the inclusion of grey knights. Having daemonhosts alongside Grey Knights doesn't make sense to me.


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## GrizBe

I heard Deamonhost would be getting ditched from the GK codex Inquisitors and they'd appear in the =I= suppliment for radical inquisitors.


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## coke123

GrizBe said:


> I heard Deamonhost would be getting ditched from the GK codex Inquisitors and they'd appear in the =I= suppliment for radical inquisitors.


That'd make sense. It would be weird to have a unit which prevents you from fielding GK in a book entitled Codex:Grey Knights.

About this supplement, where did this rumour come from (I haven't seen it from the rumour mongers myself), how concrete is it, do we have any kind of time frame, and does anyone know if it would be compatible with SM and IG? cos I think an Alien Hunter army would be cool, and this would be the way to do it.


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## hungryugolino

I heard that stormtroopers are getting gauss flayers and Grey Knights all have FNP, FC, and heavy bolters.


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## hungryugolino

Azezel said:


> The Ordo Malleus certainly need Stormtroopers, but it's a waste to send GK to help Stormtroopers do their job and it's idiocy to send Stormtroopers to help the GK do their job.


Because the stormtroopers make a handy distraction/cannon fodder, and its easier to get more redshirts than it is to get vanilla Grey Knights.


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## gen.ahab

hungryugolino said:


> I heard that stormtroopers are getting gauss flayers and Grey Knights all have FNP, FC, and heavy bolters.


I would assume this is bullshit because they have storm bolters, not HB.


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## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> Dice Like Thunder is a podcast I listen to regularly, they are the first 40k podcast to reach 100 episodes.
> 
> Anyways, if they have Inquisitors in the SoB codex will they basically be the same as the ones in C:GK? Will there be slight differences like there are now?
> Im sure allot of people would be disappointed if there were no Inquisitors in it but Id rather see just SoB and Ecclesiarchy. Then again maybe we will be seeing Ecchlesiarical Storm Troopers or something like that. Sisters getting Valkyries or Storm Ravens (doubt theyd get SR) would be really good though.
> 
> 
> New bit from Stickmonkey


Ecclesiarchal Storm Troopers would be so enormously counter-fluff that you may as well not have a battle sisters codex at that point. The whole reason there are SoB is because the Ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have men under arms (this is also my objection to the presence of priests on the battlefield (other than their miserable rules), WH or IG. Do priests have a role in military units? Yes(obviously, since real armies have chaplains now). So do cooks and logistics officers, neither of whom should actually see action in the normal course of affairs.)

As to the unpopularity of inquisitors, I think given the profusion of inquisitorial black library novels that they're plenty popular. They don't show up in the game because their rules suck even by the standards of 3E codexes in 5E. WH inquisitors don't even get mystics, most henchmen are worse than regular IG (I'd rather spend the same number of points and just give the inquisitor the special ability for the most part), and the no retreat rule means that the fearlessness (required when most of your unit evaporate on contact with enemy infantry) the IL brings to the table is a liability. If the rules for them were even mediocre, I'd field them all the time, but as it stands they rank just above priests and tau ethereals in my affections.

The major upgrade for IG Stormtroopers does raise an interesting question about what future battle sisters will be like. With Stormtroopers costing just a shade less than space marines, will SoB also be increased in power/point cost (they're from the same schools as the stormtroopers, and likewise supposed to be the best unaugmented humanity has to offer) or will they be 'demoted' and stay in the low teens, slightly better equipped than guard veteran grenadiers but not exceptional?

This =I= suppliment that has been mentioned is a disaster waiting to happen. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) It isn't updated, and the contents become obsolete fairly soon, eventually becoming valueless, or 2) it is updated and they've essentially added another codex when they can't manage the task of updating the armies they already have. Add to that the (justified) wailing and gnashing of teeth of all the xeno/chaos players who are outraged at a suppliment that is full of toys for all the imperial armies and the difficulty of making it work with all imperial armies without containing numerous game breaking exploits...


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## coke123

hungryugolino said:


> I heard that stormtroopers are getting gauss flayers and Grey Knights all have FNP, FC, and heavy bolters.


Hmm... I do always have trouble detecting sarcasm in text...It's rather difficult to convey tone...You're kidding, right?



mahavira said:


> The major upgrade for IG Stormtroopers does raise an interesting question about what future battle sisters will be like. With Stormtroopers costing just a shade less than space marines, will SoB also be increased in power/point cost (they're from the same schools as the stormtroopers, and likewise supposed to be the best unaugmented humanity has to offer) or will they be 'demoted' and stay in the low teens, slightly better equipped than guard veteran grenadiers but not exceptional?
> 
> This =I= suppliment that has been mentioned is a disaster waiting to happen. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) It isn't updated, and the contents become obsolete fairly soon, eventually becoming valueless, or 2) it is updated and they've essentially added another codex when they can't manage the task of updating the armies they already have. Add to that the (justified) wailing and gnashing of teeth of all the xeno/chaos players who are outraged at a suppliment that is full of toys for all the imperial armies and the difficulty of making it work with all imperial armies without containing numerous game breaking exploits...


I desperately hope for all WH players out there that they make SoB at least on par with Stormtroopers. The trouble with the troopers is that they are are basically black-ops, and so should be awesome, at least compared to a regular guardsman. Sisters should be the same. Maybe if Sisters got Relentless or Slow and Purposeful, and were then given a smaller minimum squad size?

And as to non-imperial players being annoyed at not getting new toys, this is already the case. So many new imperial books have been released over severely outdated xenos codicies, especially when it comes to some new flavour of marines which could have been included under the vanilla codex via either a chapter characteristics system like last time, or the inclusion of a couple more characters. There are also precedents for this supplement; I know that there was an Eldar Craftworlds supplement, and I believe there was a Chaos one too? I don't think that it will be a 'disaster' as you say.


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## mahavira

The Craftsworld and Chaos suppliments only had one army to deal with (unless chaos daemons were already available then?), so many fewer points of failure in terms of accidental game breaking. I also note that neither is still around and valid. And the xeno filth...players sorry, are right to be annoyed, so making matters worse isn't really something I'd suggest (hell, I play imperium and I'm offended by the number of variant marines and the fact that there are already 3 marine codexes for 5E). Unless there was a major "enemies of the imperium" portion (or equivalent book) with expanded rules and models for enemy races and imperial renegades (not in itself a terrible idea except for the obsolete sooner than later problem), I consider the inquisition suppliment to be as terrible an idea as some people consider a combined codex.

As to what a battle sister of similar point cost to a stormtrooper would be like, rather than covert ops like Stormtroopers, they'd be more like shock troops. You need the anti aircraft gun emplacements taken out prior to the assault? Get storm troopers to do it. Once the assault is going, you want that heavily fortified area breached, send the battle sisters and follow the smell of bacon. Also, their role both with the ecclesiarchy and the inquisition would involve a lot of fighting in hive cities and other close quarters, so perhaps giving them bolter, bolt pistol, close combat weapon like chaos marines would be appropriate (or sarissas as standard equipment). Alternately, because they aren't as strong as space marines, give them an SMG style boltgun that is shorter range but assault (or just give that to dominions). Maybe fearless for all Adepta Sororitas models


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## coke123

Or give sisters storm bolters. Or would that be too similar to grey knights? They could do like an 18" range storm bolter. That'd make them remarkably similar to dire avengers which are 12pts a pop. Add a bit more to the cost for the power armour and faith points, and you'd have something around the cost of a tactical marine or storm trooper, maybe a bit more. Actually, it makes sense that sister's bolters would be smaller and easier to manage than those of the space marines, since they aren't hulking supermen who have taken so many steroids that their nuts (if they had them) had shrunk to the size of a sultana. Personally, if I played sisters, I'd be miffed if they got fearless. I'd rather a ATSKNF equivalent, or stubborn instead.

If only everyone put the same weight into the IA books, then that's were you should put this expansion. Trouble is, if you want to use it, you're always gonna get those dicks who won't play you.


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## Necrosis

coke123 said:


> Or give sisters storm bolters. Or would that be too similar to grey knights? They could do like an 18" range storm bolter. That'd make them remarkably similar to dire avengers which are 12pts a pop. Add a bit more to the cost for the power armour and faith points, and you'd have something around the cost of a tactical marine or storm trooper, maybe a bit more. Actually, it makes sense that sister's bolters would be smaller and easier to manage than those of the space marines, since they aren't hulking supermen who have taken so many steroids that their nuts (if they had them) had shrunk to the size of a sultana. Personally, if I played sisters, I'd be miffed if they got fearless. I'd rather a ATSKNF equivalent, or stubborn instead.
> 
> If only everyone put the same weight into the IA books, then that's were you should put this expansion. Trouble is, if you want to use it, you're always gonna get those dicks who won't play you.


Or you could make sister storm bolter come with blessed ammunition (ignores cover) while Grey Knigths with Psycannon bolts (ap 4 ignores invu).


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## coke123

Storm bolters that ignore cover? That's nothing short of terrifying! They'd have to be pretty expensive to have that...


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## GrizBe

coke123 said:


> About this supplement, where did this rumour come from (I haven't seen it from the rumour mongers myself), how concrete is it, do we have any kind of time frame, and does anyone know if it would be compatible with SM and IG? cos I think an Alien Hunter army would be cool, and this would be the way to do it.


Bindi has alluded to it several times, and I think Sticks mentioned it too. It makes sense though in that =I= are usually comendeering forces rather then leading actual armies.


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## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Storm bolters that ignore cover? That's nothing short of terrifying! They'd have to be pretty expensive to have that...


Sisters can already have this on their rhinos, you can get Blessed Ammo for 10 points and another pintle mounted storm bolter for 10pt. This allows your rhinos to shoot 4 storm bolter shots that ignore cover every round. Really good vs IG that are hiding in cover with their heavy weapons.
In an apocalypse game about a month ago I fielded 5 Immolators with TLHB with blessed ammo, worked really good.

As for what I think sisters should get:
Stubborn rule for canoness and other HQ and for VSS.

Since allot of sisters have a scope on their bolter (or even flamer lol) it should actually do something for them. Id say the scope would add +6" range to both stationary and rapid fire. This would give a 30" range bolter standing still and a 18" bolter moving.

Celestians would all come with this weapon.


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## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Since allot of sisters have a scope on their bolter (or even flamer lol) it should actually do something for them. Id say the scope would add +6" range to both stationary and rapid fire. This would give a 30" range bolter standing still and a 18" bolter moving.
> 
> Celestians would all come with this weapon.


What if sisters got the kraken bolt that the sternguard have? 30" range, ap4 bolter would be cool. Probably should be for celestians only, though.


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## MadCowCrazy

I really hope Sisters stay a 24" army, I think it fits them well. I would like to see some changes to the way they can use their flamers though. Personally I would like it if they could use them like the Hellhound can, that you can place the template some inches infront of you and then tilt it sideways or however you want.
Blessed flamer : Same as flamer but you can place it 6" infront of you and tilt it.
Blessed Heavy flamer : Same as Heavy flamer but you can place it 9" infront of you and tilt it.

I also wish the Immolator would get its 2nd edition weapon back, with its twin twin-linked heavy flamer where you place 2 flame templates next to eachother but also with the flamestorm cannon rule where you can place it 12" infront of you.

This would give the sisters some very unique flame based abilities and make it harder for enemies to position themselves so you only hit 2 people with your flame templates.


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## Azezel

Ah wishlisting...

To my mind, the Sisters' strength has never been their training and skills - that's very much Stormtroopers. the Sisters rely first on faith and divine guidance (the concept, not the AoF). and then on the finest equipment that Mars can provide. Power Armour and bolters all-round.

Personally, I disagree with you, MCC, about extending the range of bolters and flamers. I don't tbink they are a 24" range army, I think they're a 6"-12" range army and should be powerhouses there.

In fact, rather than giving them storm-bolters, how about a bolt-pistol equivalent of a machine-pistol? Range 12, assault 2 and counts as an extra CCW in assault? Naturally, the Serraphim carry two of them.

I would like blessed Ammunition as an option for my infantry (say 15pts/squad?).

I'd also like _something_ that makes the Sisters the obvious and undisputed flamer-army, a title currently held by Space Marines with Vulkan He-Man.


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## MadCowCrazy

I agree with you Azezel but the problem is most enemies that can assault do so from more than 6-12 inches away. I dont really see sisters as an assault heavy army so if sisters could move in the assault phase then I could see what you suggested work. Shoot, move back, move, shoot, move back.

Then again I dont think that would fit them, from all the fluff Ive read they stand their ground until they die. This is why I think the Stubborn rule really suits them, HQ could have the same as Book of St Lucius with its 6" range but a general Stubborn rule for VSS I think fits the army really well.

You are right sisters are a 6-12" army but I prefer to look at them as a 12-24" army (I take 6" movement into consideration, move 6", shoot 12" or stand still and shoot 24", flamer 6" move and 7" template) because its at that range most of their shooting happens.
I think flamers are rather weak in this edition, its really simple to position your troops so only 2-3 troops are hit from a single flamer. I think flamers need some help, there is no way they will add a larger flame template and I only think one is needed for vehicles but I could totally see being able to place the flame template 6" infront of you and pivot it as you please as a good solution and its realistic as well. Then again if we want to go "realistic" the flamer template should be 12-24" long. Some vehicle flamers can shoot up to 100m.

No matter how they solve it Im sure it will be interesting.


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## gen.ahab

I don't really like the idea of the full-auto bolt pistol. It seems like you would need something like a SM to even keep it level during use.


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## coke123

Yeah, I agree with ahab. A pistol really implies that they're a close combat unit, when really they're not. Not a bad idea for seraphim, and maybe make it so it gives S4 in CC, but I don't think so for the bog basic sister.


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## Winterous

I agree on the 'projected flame' thing, that does sound very good.


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## mahavira

The problem with not being a close combat force is that unless you obliterate the enemy altogether (break checks from ranged weapons are easy enough that they can't be relied upon), the optimum range for your weapons means you -will- get charged and it takes very few orks or chaos marines to cripple or destroy a unit of battle sisters as is (my current record for humiliating close combat defeats is having 2 chaos marines destroy a unit of 7 battle sisters without taking a wound). Making Sarissas standard equipment would go a long way towards making battle sisters -able- to deal with survivors without making them assault troops as such.


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## Winterous

mahavira said:


> The problem with not being a close combat force is that unless you obliterate the enemy altogether (break checks from ranged weapons are easy enough that they can't be relied upon), the optimum range for your weapons means you -will- get charged and it takes very few orks or chaos marines to cripple or destroy a unit of battle sisters as is (my current record for humiliating close combat defeats is having 2 chaos marines destroy a unit of 7 battle sisters without taking a wound). Making Sarissas standard equipment would go a long way towards making battle sisters -able- to deal with survivors without making them assault troops as such.


This gave me deja-vu from like, 2-2.5 years ago :S


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## coke123

But Sarissas only work on the charge. Would you rather have another round of rapid fire shooting, or charge? They'd have to tweak Sarissas a little, maybe so they worked in the first round of combat instead of only when charging. Otherwise seems like a good idea. Sarissas fit in well with the imagery of sisters too.


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## mahavira

Never taken them so didn't know the fine details. Counter attack would be logical given the nature of their armament and their don't give ground ethos. Also I am a fan of the 'battle sisters have a smg version of a bolter that's shorter range but assault' idea. Fighting spire to spire against heretics and mutants in hive cities and undercatacombs makes the greater range of a conventional bolter of limited use.


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## Winterous

mahavira said:


> Never taken them so didn't know the fine details. Counter attack would be logical given the nature of their armament and their don't give ground ethos. Also I am a fan of the 'battle sisters have a smg version of a bolter that's shorter range but assault' idea. Fighting spire to spire against heretics and mutants in hive cities and undercatacombs makes the greater range of a conventional bolter of limited use.


That is a good point, giving them options similar to Fire Warriors.
They can take the longer-range, Rapid-Fire version of the weapon, or a shorter range and non-two-shots version which is Assault.

So they could have a regular Bolter, or an 18" Assault 1 version.
Greater mobility at the expense of firepower.


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## coke123

mahavira said:


> Never taken them so didn't know the fine details. Counter attack would be logical given the nature of their armament and their don't give ground ethos. Also I am a fan of the 'battle sisters have a smg version of a bolter that's shorter range but assault' idea. Fighting spire to spire against heretics and mutants in hive cities and undercatacombs makes the greater range of a conventional bolter of limited use.


Yeah, I don't play sisters at all, so I had to check the codex download myself. I think a good way to blunt an enemy assault would be to give them defensive grenades, or some ability like the Dire Avenger's Defend- -1 attack to any model wishing to attack a sister to a min of 1. At any rate, Sisters are not assault units (for the most part), so I reckon the best way to give them a chance in an assault is not to make them better, but to make the enemy worse.

Also, I think there should be a difference between SM and Sister's bolters- since they make a distinction in the fluff, there should be a difference in the gameplay.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I could totally see sisters coming with Defensive and Krak grenades standard while seraphim have frag and krak standard.


----------



## Katie Drake

Remember kids - unless you're a competent assault unit, defensive grenades are usually a bad thing.

More often than not you'd rather lose combat and fall back than you would lose combat but not break, as you then have no means of shooting up the offending assaulting unit. This is why Daemonettes can kick the crap out of things - you get no attack bonus for assaulting them and they're actually skilled melee fighters.


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## MadCowCrazy

The problem with that is when sisters break and fall back they get overrun and destroyed.
They arnt SM after all...


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## coke123

Yeah, I'd rather hold up a unit for a turn or two for a more assaulty unit to come to the rescue than have them overrun and destroyed.


----------



## mahavira

I'd like to see phosphor grenades somewhere (maybe a special or combi weapon that fires a small blast that ignores cover?). And how about counter attack, perhaps as an act of faith or squad upgrade?


----------



## gen.ahab

Wouldn't really matter much. It works for the wolves because they are marines, but, even with another attack, sisters would fold like a house of cards.


----------



## Kettu

Two ideas to solve the CC issue:

*Back *in the old Citadel Journal there was the original rules for Repentia.
They were taken as an additional squad member who, when the squad was charged, would run out to face the enemy head on leaving the squad she was with free from the combat.
She would die but the enemy would be still a few inches short and the Sisters got another turn of shooting.
If she survived but fled then the Sister squad would break and flee also without a test.
If she survived and won the combat then they all got some kind of boost.
(I am trying to recall all this from five years ago so I may have a few things wrong here)

Repentia have since gotten different (read:crap) rules but the Sisters Oblatia alternate rank in Dark Heresy's Inquisitors Handbook read like the original Repentia fluff and so bring in the Oblatia as an option?

*My* other idea that I am personally a fan of is Sisters get the option of a D6 'run' move in the assault phase like Tau Crisis Suit Jump-Shoot-Jump deal.

This way you could have a chance of avoiding the enemy for another turn so you could get more shots in.

Sadly, GW will probably just give defence grenades or BP&CC and act like there is no problem.


----------



## andrewm9

Kettu said:


> Two ideas to solve the CC issue:
> 
> *Back *in the old Citadel Journal there was the original rules for Repentia.
> They were taken as an additional squad member who, when the squad was charged, would run out to face the enemy head on leaving the squad she was with free from the combat.
> She would die but the enemy would be still a few inches short and the Sisters got another turn of shooting.
> If she survived but fled then the Sister squad would break and flee also without a test.
> If she survived and won the combat then they all got some kind of boost.
> (I am trying to recall all this from five years ago so I may have a few things wrong here)
> 
> Repentia have since gotten different (read:crap) rules but the Sisters Oblatia alternate rank in Dark Heresy's Inquisitors Handbook read like the original Repentia fluff and so bring in the Oblatia as an option?
> 
> *My* other idea that I am personally a fan of is Sisters get the option of a D6 'run' move in the assault phase like Tau Crisis Suit Jump-Shoot-Jump deal.
> 
> This way you could have a chance of avoiding the enemy for another turn so you could get more shots in.
> 
> Sadly, GW will probably just give defence grenades or BP&CC and act like there is no problem.


Sisters have a lot more problems than just getting into close combat. Furious Charge would probably solve much our "assault troops" ' problems. Hitting most units with STR 3 attacks severely cuts down on the amount of wounds we can do. It makes taking a mere powersword laughable. 

Sisters as a shooting army need longer range guns. Given the 'holy trinity' this limits us in many ways. Likley GW will either loosen up the restriction of give us new weapons if they even address the issue. The idea of living for the 6" to 12" range is a big chunk of our porblem in a competitive environment. Generally speaking once a Sisters unit gets out of a transport it has at most 1 or 2 rounds of assault to live IMO. Canny opponents know what the weaknesses of all-Sisters army are. 

GW will have to make some serious changes to the army for a future codex release. Who knows what will be in store. I have great hopes for the new dex, but I expect great changes both in the way the army plays and the fluff.


----------



## mahavira

Kettu said:


> Two ideas to solve the CC issue:
> 
> *Back *in the old Citadel Journal there was the original rules for Repentia.
> They were taken as an additional squad member who, when the squad was charged, would run out to face the enemy head on leaving the squad she was with free from the combat.
> She would die but the enemy would be still a few inches short and the Sisters got another turn of shooting.
> If she survived but fled then the Sister squad would break and flee also without a test.
> If she survived and won the combat then they all got some kind of boost.
> (I am trying to recall all this from five years ago so I may have a few things wrong here)
> 
> Repentia have since gotten different (read:crap) rules but the Sisters Oblatia alternate rank in Dark Heresy's Inquisitors Handbook read like the original Repentia fluff and so bring in the Oblatia as an option?
> 
> *My* other idea that I am personally a fan of is Sisters get the option of a D6 'run' move in the assault phase like Tau Crisis Suit Jump-Shoot-Jump deal.
> 
> This way you could have a chance of avoiding the enemy for another turn so you could get more shots in.
> 
> Sadly, GW will probably just give defence grenades or BP&CC and act like there is no problem.


The short range of flamers is such that d6 move in the assault phase would be meaningless: if your flamer was in range to do anything at all, you're still in assault range even if they aren't fleet. Furious charge doesn't help either: the problem is being assaulted not assaulting (which bolter armed troopers are insane to even consider anyway). Having sarissas as standard gear and making them work whether you charge or not would make sisters more or less S4 (rerolling S3 is not quite the same), though it still leaves power swords as worthless add ons unless VSS have some sort of holy hatred reroll to wound.

Millions of pixels have been spilled trying to fix repentia, and I won't rehash most of it here. It does occur to me that a big part of the problem with them is the fact that eviscerators operate like chain fists, which both makes them too expensive and makes them go last. Make them non power weapons that add 2 to strength (I'm ambivalent about the +d6 vs vehicles) and you can lower the cost enough to give them things like furious charge, an extra attack, or something.


----------



## Kettu

Flamers are 8 and something inch long so you have about 2'' leeway.
But yeah, I see your point.
The idea is more for use with Melta and such wielding squads and less for flamers.
I'm hoping we get a hand-held long ranged flamers as a special weapon akin to the hellhound cannon, burning the filth away from an extra 6 or so inches would go a long way to helping the army as a whole.

As for the Oblatia/Repentia deal, I'm not fixing things but suggesting they add a new unit following the original rules or a variant thereof.
Repentia themselves? Cost at less then half of them at current, no armour save but feel no pain and if killed in combat before they strike, they still receive their full attacks.
I've playtested it a fair few times and 8-9 pts works best. (They still seem a touch on the expensive side though)


----------



## coke123

I don't see how FNP is better than a 4++ save for Repentia (which I believe they currently have). They're only T3, so S6+ still insta-kills them, so therefore they won't get their FNP against it, whereas they would get it if they had an invulnerable save. The reason FNP is so good is that it works in conjunction with armour, rather than instead of it. This advantage disappears if they have no armour. Actually, in this situation FNP is worse than an armour save, even high strength AP- weapons will go through.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I don't see how FNP is better than a 4++ save for Repentia (which I believe they currently have). They're only T3, so S6+ still insta-kills them, so therefore they won't get their FNP against it, whereas they would get it if they had an invulnerable save. The reason FNP is so good is that it works in conjunction with armour, rather than instead of it. This advantage disappears if they have no armour. Actually, in this situation FNP is worse than an armour save, even high strength AP- weapons will go through.


I think they're talking about 'realistically' here, 'realistically' Sisters Repentia aren't wearing any armour at all, they're just frenzied maniacs or something with chainsaws, who are almost naked.
So FNP makes sense, because they would be ignoring pain; this only gets you so far however, and a S6 weapon which would blow their body apart would negate the ability to ignore a wound.


----------



## coke123

Right, I thought they were talking about making them decent on the tabletop. I agree about changing eviscerators though, I don't see why they should ignore armour. maybe give a negative modifier, but when it comes down to it they're just big chainswords. Unless it says they have a power weapon 'shield' around the blades in the fluff. The only other unit that has a similar weapon in the game (that I'm aware of) are the Striking Scorpions, maybe eviscerators should act like a Biting Blade. Give Repentia 2 attacks and one of these, and they'd be pretty badass. Except you'd have to roll for each sister individually.

Ugh, I'm starved for rumours, is there any way to invoke the favour of Stickmonkey? Perhaps we should sacrifice a bull in his honour? Or build a temple dedicated to him?


----------



## Kettu

Eviscerators contain a slightly unstable power-field matrix inside themselves that gives it an effect similar to a powerfist on top of the already powerful chain blade and so rules wise it is a count-as chainfist.

By the by, Repentia don't have a 4++ save at current, just 4+.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Ugh, I'm starved for rumours, is there any way to invoke the favour of Stickmonkey? Perhaps we should sacrifice a bull in his honour? Or build a temple dedicated to him?


Agree, but Im banned on Warseer and dont care to post with my new account since I think the admin who banned me is such a small minded retard.

I dont expect anything new to come up this month, once the Dark Eldar craze is over we might start seeing some new bits here and there.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Agree, but Im banned on Warseer and dont care to post with my new account since I think the admin who banned me is such a small minded retard.
> 
> I dont expect anything new to come up this month, once the Dark Eldar craze is over we might start seeing some new bits here and there.


How'd you get banned?

I've had my fair share of banning, for various reasons, including my friends being dicks (as Katie Drake would probably recall) :S


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## Azezel

I seem to recal MCC he posted a picture of a pretty lady, and, well, you know... That's a bannable offence.

Anyway - if the legends are troy we should start seeing real GK rumours sometime next month in preparation for a February launch.


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## Vhalyar

coke123 said:


> Ugh, I'm starved for rumours, is there any way to invoke the favour of Stickmonkey? Perhaps we should sacrifice a bull in his honour? Or build a temple dedicated to him?


It's only been five days since he posted a rumor :/


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## coke123

Kettu said:


> Eviscerators contain a slightly unstable power-field matrix inside themselves that gives it an effect similar to a powerfist on top of the already powerful chain blade and so rules wise it is a count-as chainfist.
> 
> By the by, Repentia don't have a 4++ save at current, just 4+.


Ok, then I get them being chainfists. Although they might work better as relic blades.

And only 4+!? Fucking hell!



Vhalyar said:


> It's only been five days since he posted a rumor :/


Really? The workload has been piling up at uni (actually I've just been lazy), and when that happens my sense of space and time tends to become somewhat distorted. Either that or some chaotic influence has seeped into the Sydney greater metropolitan area, and the GK are going to exterminate us all...



Azezel said:


> I seem to recal MCC he posted a picture of a pretty lady, and, well, you know... That's a bannable offence.
> 
> Anyway - if the legends are troy we should start seeing real GK rumours sometime next month in preparation for a February launch.


I believe he got warned for posting an exerpt from the Big Bang Theory, and then banned for having a woman show her ankle. This is why I've lost faith in humanity.

The prophecy shall be fulfilled! Although isn't it mean to be January?


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## Dynamike

I know how you feel Coke123!

I too can't wait for more info and rumors on GK. I look everyday for them :search:. I wish I could say I am going crazy but I know I have been for a while so doesn't matter anymore!

I don't hope for a OP army of death but for one that can provide as much punch as any other decent army out there. You know, playing without having to hope for a draw is nice. I don't have as much experience with the SoB but I know a little help could be useful for them too. I played against them about twice and I must admit it is a really fun army to play against. Diversified, mobile and the fluff is great! But also I think that having the sisters redone in plastic we would see an emergence of female characters out there. Heads or whatever could be used by other players for some characters. I think of Imperial Guards for an example. 

On a side note.. anyone here think it will be possible to do a foot slogging army with the new Grey Knights? :victory:


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## coke123

You only check daily? I'm looking like, every 20 minutes, when I'm not in class.

I too want a competative army, but not an insta-win. That's not fun, and somewhat defeats the purpose of the game, a test of skill. Actually, I only play Eldar atm, but I want an imperial army as my second, and GK are awesome. Every army should be on equal footing, with their own strengths and weaknesses which we have to exploit/overcome.

Well, if the new DE kits are any indication, we may see more female models for other armies, except SM who I believe don't accept women? Talk about a glass ceiling... Although the Eldar have always had female models.

There has been talk of GK getting artificer armour, but some people have pointed out that this came from Harry, who, whilst reliable, I'm lead to believe deals mainly in fantasy, and hence may have confused it with anointed armour? Can anyone clarify this? If they do get artificer, it should be very possible to make them footslog.

Rumours also seem to say that there'll be a lot more teleporting though, and it'd probably be smarter to take advantage of this. Although there's no reason you can't buy the PAGK (or AAGK models, or whatever) models first, playtest a footslog, and then by whatever transports are available to them afterwards if it doesn't work, since you're going to buy the GK regardless, aren't you?


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## MadCowCrazy

I got a 7day ban and a warning for posting the warrior girl with dildo strapon in my slaneesh reply.

I got permabanned for posting this in a reply to "You will have a nerdgasm when you see the new DE models" :






I find it funny how Warseer always have more guests and members looking at threads while we have more member than guests. I guess its because Warseer bans people left, right and center


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## Winterous

....That's fucking stupid.


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## coke123

:headbutt: Oh well, it's in the past. You're probably better off not dealing with people like that anyway, they just tend to cause headaches. We can all just lurk there and rip off any info posted there and post it here anyway.


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## Mathai

I think Artificer armor would not be good choice for the regular Grey Knights on a gameplay level, but perfect from a fluff standpoint. A 2+ save is extreemly potent, even without the accompanying Termie invulnerable save. To give it to all an army's troop choices would cause them to be able to hold points almost indeffinitely in my opinion. And in addition, the point cost would shoot only go up even more. Now, maybe something like a verteran squad of Power Armor Grey Knights with that option as an Elite choice alongside the Terminators, as sort of a less expensive choice for heavier foot soldiers that can also pile in larger numbers into a Land Raider would make for a dynamic option I think. Like maybe the current 25 points for standard GKs, with 35 for Elite version and something like 50 for Terminators?


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## coke123

Mathai said:


> I think Artificer armor would not be good choice for the regular Grey Knights on a gameplay level, but perfect from a fluff standpoint. A 2+ save is extreemly potent, even without the accompanying Termie invulnerable save. To give it to all an army's troop choices would cause them to be able to hold points almost indeffinitely in my opinion. And in addition, the point cost would shoot only go up even more. Now, maybe something like a verteran squad of Power Armor Grey Knights with that option as an Elite choice alongside the Terminators, as sort of a less expensive choice for heavier foot soldiers that can also pile in larger numbers into a Land Raider would make for a dynamic option I think. Like maybe the current 25 points for standard GKs, with 35 for Elite version and something like 50 for Terminators?


I've had the same worries- artificer armour at troop level would just be too expensive, especially with all those plasma cannons and demolishers around. I'd rather an invulerable save in conjuction with power armour, and then have artificer on an elites choice as well. To be honest, I'm actually anticipating this, I reckon there'll be something similar to saguinary guard in this codex considering the other similarities people are drawing between Blood Angels and Grey Knights.


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## HOBO

Winterous said:


> ....That's fucking stupid.


Having also been banned from Warseer I'm not a fan, and their Mods suffer from massive EGOitis, but they are a hardline PG13 site so it doesn't overly surprise me that MCC got banned for the stuff he posted...probably forgot for a moment he was logged onto Warseer and not Heresy - poles apart as far as allowable content goes.

Anyway, their loss..they aren't discussing all that much on the GK front either at the moment, just rehashing the "AA, what does it stand for again", the "2+/5+ or 6+ invul save", and "are the current models going to be compatible with the new plastics size-wise" discussions.

I doubt there will be any really solid info to discuss until middle/late November.


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## Dynamike

I wouldn't mind artificer armor or invul. save. GK need more survivability one way or the other. 

What about their current problems against vehicules? I suppose if they can survive longer then it already helps a part of the problem, but how to effectively deal with it? Standard GK weaponry are not really meant to deal with vehicules. Let's see, nemesis weapons adds +2 to strengh right now and might not be the case in the future so may be too weak to do that. Hammers could help on termies on the other hand but you still have to get there first. Psycannon with str 6 are ok for transport but that's about it and incinerators just doesn't do it. Hopefully the new walker type thing might be an answer along with the stormraven. As for standard foot weaponry, only standard imperial weaponry remains to deal with vehicules. I wish they could come up with a new type of weaponry that could help them with vehicules specific for the GK. How about an exterminus missile launcher with a big blast template? Could be used to destroy a group of daemons in the fluff but would be just as deadly on a regular vehicule(kind of like a mini-nuke) I personnally like when the different armies have special weapons unique to them.

Anyone else got ideas? Might as well talk about stuff while the rumours run slow ^_^


----------



## coke123

Even if GK are meant to fight daemons, doesn't mean they don't need anti-tank (fluff wise). They might need to stop some traitor guard under daemonic influence, and they have to take out those possessed vehicles somehow. And even ignoring this, I'd still rather a multi-melta or lascannon for taking down those greater daemons, than a psycannon that wounds them on a 4+. There you go, your anti-vehicle-needs fluff right there.

I've seen some people talking about NFWs giving S6 and Rending, which if given enough attacks, could be devastating in a vehicle assault. Assuming they can get there.

Termies can already take hammers. Trouble is, their storm shields are shit, and hence don't make up for them striking last, as for vanilla termies. Offering chainfists, however, may be the way to go.

They should also change the nature of orbital strikes- atm it's like "WOW, I can give up 80pts for a whole Heavy Support Choice for a weapon that can be easily run away from, and always scatters!", and then you subsequently vomit all over your codex, and buy another land raider. If they changed them to be a wargear option for inquisitor lords, or a part of their retinue that would be alright. I mean, it is the inquisitor who's in charge of the strike, so he should take it.

GK are meant to be the best armed marines there are, and I don't think mars will complain if they ask for a couple of lascannons and multi meltas alongside their next order of psycannons.


----------



## Azezel

I think the current favourite is some manner of anti-tank psychic power?


----------



## coke123

Don't blood angels have something like that? Blood lance or something?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Don't blood angels have something like that? Blood lance or something?


That's the one. Lovely, awesome high Strength lance weapon with AP1... love it.


----------



## coke123

What strength? And what range? And doesn't it skewer people in a line? If GK get that, then I'm happy. Although perhaps not a perfect clone of it


----------



## boreas

What would be fluffy would be powers that are proportional to the number in the squad. Since every GK is a psyker, you could have a lance that's 2" range per knight in the squad. Or a Psychic power that does a "blast" around the unit (EG St4 Ap- every model inside 1" per GK). That might also encourage people the play bigger squads...

Phil


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> What would be fluffy would be powers that are proportional to the number in the squad. Since every GK is a psyker, you could have a lance that's 2" range per knight in the squad. Or a Psychic power that does a "blast" around the unit (EG St4 Ap- every model inside 1" per GK). That might also encourage people the play bigger squads...
> 
> Phil


You mean like Psyker Battle Squads?
I was thinking the same sort of thing


----------



## coke123

I assume the justicar would still be the one the power is actually cast from? Another thing to encourage big squads would be to allow them to take rhinos, rather than only razorbacks.


----------



## Dynamike

What would be nice is to have more choice in regards to psychic powers. I always find that in the different codexes there is a decent amount of choice but there could be more to add variety. More choice would mean more variety on the table and to me it is more fun as well. 

A lot could be achieved with psychic powers to help GK at both killing and survive. That would be great to have to choose between powers for more survivability or for more killing powers. It would also be quite easy to have powers helping against vehicles.


How aobut a spychic power that could grant teleport abilities? I think that would be better through equipment but that would be only truly useful if they could teleport AND be troops as well since the point cost of the GK. Currently it is possible to have some but they cost so much it's kind of pointless.


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## Vhalyar

This was posted in the BOLS forum; it's all pretty obvious except for one interesting bit.



heartbitt said:


> Yesterday I got "officially" noted, by a very reliable source, GK ranges are FULLY done, in facy they're fully done sometime ago, as the DE, the minis are superb, most on platic, like lately, and the quality is as "worse" as like DE. SH, was really the tesbed with the new injection systems (the first test was AoBR, but they not push to hard the system), *the Eavy Metal team has finished the search for chromatic pallete, thistime the GK are not more shinny silver, the definition used on the studio is now they've more "dismal" look*, Stormraven is in, as well, a very special character. GW almost got the date release.


Never heard of the poster until this though.


----------



## coke123

Hmm... Interesting if true... If anything, its more evidence for a summer release. Wait, what's SH? He doesn't mean Swooping Hawks, surely.



Dynamike said:


> What would be nice is to have more choice in regards to psychic powers. I always find that in the different codexes there is a decent amount of choice but there could be more to add variety. More choice would mean more variety on the table and to me it is more fun as well.
> 
> A lot could be achieved with psychic powers to help GK at both killing and survive. That would be great to have to choose between powers for more survivability or for more killing powers. It would also be quite easy to have powers helping against vehicles.
> 
> 
> How aobut a spychic power that could grant teleport abilities? I think that would be better through equipment but that would be only truly useful if they could teleport AND be troops as well since the point cost of the GK. Currently it is possible to have some but they cost so much it's kind of pointless.


What, like just giving deep strike, or something that works like Swooping Hawks Skyleap? That'd be awesome, with some tweaking (e.g. they shouldn't go back into reserve, just be redeployed next turn). I'd have no trouble having troops that teleport. A melta power is in order, imo.


----------



## GrizBe

SH could be Space Hulk with the reference to the BA terms in it?

And as for the 'dismal look', Grey Knights fluffwise were meant to have unpainted armour, just have the bare ceramite plating under it... Hence 'Grey Knights' since ceramite is meant to be a dull metalic grey in colour.


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## coke123

Oh, sweet. If the new GK models are in the same order of awesomeness as the Space Hulk models then I'm a very happy camper.

I didn't realise they had unpainted armour, I always thought they were silver because silver is traditionally meant to kill evil stuff like daemons and such. The 'Eavy Metal guys always gave them that 'blue steel' finish, which I thought was nice, but unpainted armour does suit their mentality better.


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## Vhalyar

I imagine that the more dismal look is to represent the fact that since they don't paint their armour, wear and tear is much more apparent. Makes sense, whereas other armies would just paint a shiny new coat on top of damage marks.

And he's most likely referring to Space Hulk since he's talking about boxes and AoBR, so that's a good sign.


----------



## Mathai

Hmm...I might have to repaint my guys then. I always thought they were painted silver...BUT, I like the unpainted idea alot more. =) ( Especially since I like to basecoat with grey  )


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## coke123

Was talking to the manager at my local GW store, he said they've already been told what the january release is, and that it's fantasy, not 40k. I guess this means february or march at best for the GK then. I know that most people are somewhat unconvinced of the store staffs reliability, but the guy was talking in definites, and didn't say "I've heard..." etc, so I figured it was worth posting.


----------



## GrizBe

From what i've heard, January will just see a 2nd wave for fantasy models, rather then a proper full release... so its stil plausible they could do both.

Either way, both Stick and Harry have said we'll see them at March come the latest, but both are inclined to Jan.

Dunno how much financial sense it'll make though since they're talking about another VAT increase here in the UK come January.... bloody ConDems...


On Ceramite, I think its because its described as being 'silver-grey' in official fluff that leads many people to think GK's are silver in colour... so hence the official colour schemes. 

Current day ceramic armor, ceramite is a ceramic material remember, tend to have high concentrations of alumina, soo the 'silver grey' would be that dull aluminium colour.


----------



## GrizBe

I got pointed over to tempusfugitives.co.uk by a friend. They're a UK based gaming club that runs big campain weekends. The point is the people who run it are based near the main GW headquarters in the UK and its run by 'people in the know' about whats going on...

Now their May event for 2011 is 'Into the Malestrom'. 

Downloading the campain pack .pdf file, usable factions for it list 'Grey Knights' and refer to 'Codex: Grey Knights' and a special character 'Brother-Captain Janus' as a HQ unit and tells people to see 'Codex: Grey Knights' for details on him.

For those wondering about points cost, Janus is listed as being 185.

Now, take with salt if you want to, but these are a reliable group who've been running for quite a few years now and this is a properly organised event.... I'm inclined to believe they know something.

Please note: May is when they're running the campaign, meaning C:GK must be out at some point before it.


----------



## coke123

I do believe I remember Harry saying that jan was possible but more likely later in Q1. I'm more inclined to believe February than January. It kinda makes more sense; they generally announce a codex officially two months before its release, as a rule of thumb. If they were released in january, this would have them announced in mid november, smack dab in the middle of the DE release. If I were GW, I'd be keeping the focus squarely on DE for at least november.

I find it the idea that an event organiser would be so presumptuous about a release without knowing something absolutely concrete a bit odd. They probably know something...


----------



## Winterous

Keeping in mind that announcing before Christmas could lead to a lot of late presents


----------



## GrizBe

coke123 said:


> I find it the idea that an event organiser would be so presumptuous about a release without knowing something absolutely concrete a bit odd. They probably know something...


Me too, they'd not organise something as big as they regularly do, announce something like that in the pack, if they didn't know. Hence why i'm inclined to believe it.


Lately in the UK, with the recession, January, having been a time of sales, is now a sales slump. Announcing GK's comming out then would boost sales and get more people in store.


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> they generally announce a codex officially two months before its release, as a rule of thumb.


The things is that GW really doesn't work like that, nowadays even more so since rumour control became tighter then a scotsman's wallet (yes, i'm scottish so i'm allowed to say that)


----------



## coke123

Bindi Baji said:


> The things is that GW really doesn't work like that, nowadays even more so since rumour control became tighter then a scotsman's wallet (yes, i'm scottish so i'm allowed to say that)


Umm... didn't they just do exactly what I said? They told us DE are coming out two months before release, and I seem to remember being overwhelmed with apathy for around two months prior to each new release this year.

It's not really a matter of rumour control, if we're talking about official announcements...


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> Umm... didn't they just do exactly what I said?


Yes, once, 
i'm not sure how once counts as "generally"
previous releases have had more then two months for announcements.

My point was that just because DE have been given two months don't expect two months to be the norm, 
GW are apparently testing the waters and toying with the space between release announcements and actual releases


----------



## coke123

Hmm... fair enough. What releases have had more than two months?


----------



## mahavira

Tyranids was 3 months.


----------



## boreas

Hum.... Rumors of scavens in January and O&G in March... February GKs? Has GW ever released 3 codice/armybooks in 3 months?

Phil


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Thanks for keeping up on the fantasy side of things.


----------



## boreas

Well, I'm less interested about the WFB release as to how they'll impact my beloved WH40K release!

Phil


----------



## coke123

Skaven in January? They were only released fairly recently, its probably just new models, if anything. I'd imagine there'll be a fantasy second wave of some kind (according to your info Skaven, which makes sense considering the slew of High Elf models recently), then a 40k codex (hopefully/probably GK) and then a fantasy army book (rumours suggesting Ogres/Tomb Kings/O&G)


----------



## Azezel

Slightly off-topic (There's a topic? Why was I not informed!?) - has there been any fresh news about _Blood of Martyrs_ lately?


----------



## oblivion8

> its probably just new models, if anything


yes, no worries, It was rumored as a second wave of models.


----------



## Kettu

Sorry Azezel, nothing to speak of at all.

I've been following it pretty closely and I figure when it comes out I'll obtain a copy via the friendly Blackbeards of the cyber world and then buy a hard-copy start of next year at Cancon.

When it comes out I'll inform everyone if you all wish to purchase legit or dl less-then-legit copies.

Other then that, on ffg's forum there is the occasional post from people saying something along the lines of _'I was a playtester and it is great but I won't ever mention anything more substantial then this as my NDA stops me but believe me, it's great and I really liked it'_ and just personally makes me wish they never bothered to say anything in the first place.


----------



## Azezel

Thanks Kettu.


----------



## boreas

StickMonkey Strikes Again!!!



> I'm back, recovered from my jellyfish stings, and with some new rumors. These come from a new source for me, but my regular sources did not call bs. So as always, nothing is set in stone...I'm recounting exactly as I was told, so if it doesn't make sense to you, it didn't to me either. I will come out and say some of this directly conflicts other information I have, but I have my reasons to share
> 
> So this actually addresses much of the inquisition in gk questions:
> 
> Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
> ISTs are elite otherwise
> ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
> Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
> Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
> Demonhosts look to be out
> In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
> Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
> Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
> chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
> Valk only dt, no vendetta option
> Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
> Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike
> 
> Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.
> 
> (Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Edit: penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask.


I LOVE IT!


----------



## DonFer

Interesting bits, specially the ISTs inclusion in elite. does this means they've become more competent? New stats fot them? 

The fact that Inquisitors unlock IST is also a great "twist" in my oppinion, making official the difference between pure GK and Daemohunter armies.

I'm have mixed feeling about the Valkirie being available for troops in an Inquisitor army, since it can block out the StromRaven. What do you reckon guys?

EDIT. With the inclusion of these information seems like the new codex is gonna be massive!


----------



## fynn

well if the valk is only for Inq units, then the stormraven should still be in for GK units, as its probaly GK only


----------



## Katie Drake

I'm gonna have to pretty much call BS. I hope to god GW doesn't decide to go this route, as the Knights will pretty much be "Codex: Imperial Guard Lite, but with some Space Marines sprinkled in".

Conscripts, but not normal infantry platoons? Hellhounds and Deathstrike launchers? This doesn't really match up with the idea of an Inquisitorial force, at least to me. The talk about Assassins makes sense, as do Inquisitorial Storm Troopers but the rest just doesn't feel right.


----------



## Azezel

That's pretty bizarre - particularly for a 'dex billed as taking the spotlight _away_ from the =][=.

As I recal - Bindi said that Assassins definately weren't in the Codex and invited us to hold him to that. I wonder if this is what SM means by 'directly contradicts'?

Hellhounds!? Deathstrikes!? He must be joking... Musn't he? At this stage it would be easier to just add an Inquisitor lord to codex: IG than to put all this stuff in Codex: GK.

Scary stuff.


----------



## GrizBe

Some of that i've gotta call bull on too. Far too much IG related stuff in it.

The =I= HQ and the IST's sound about right, as does the chimera as transports. Assasins too as 'generic with bolt ons' matches what we've bene told too...

Deathstrikes and hellhounds? That sounds like bull, as does the Valk.

That said, I'm impressd with the rest of it if its true... but it is seeming too much like 'IG, now with an inqusitor!' Then 'Inqusition, with IG backup'.


----------



## boreas

Well, if you look at it: =I=, ISTs, conscript, penal legion, Chimera, Valkyrie, Hellhound, DCA, assassin, DSM laucher. That's 10 units. Without spacial character, the SM dex has about 30-35 units types (if you count each variants of LR...). So that leaves 15-20 entries for GK units.

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Some of those rumors are just weird like others have pointed out. Deathstrike? Really? And the Inquisition bothers with the Hellhound and Valkyrie but can't be arsed to get the variants? _Really?_


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Some of those rumors are just weird like others have pointed out. Deathstrike? Really? And the Inquisition bothers with the Hellhound and Valkyrie but can't be arsed to get the variants? _Really?_



Exactly. Part of why I'm calling BS.


----------



## boreas

The lack of variants is wierd, I agree... Maybe to make everything fitin a single dex while leaving enough room for pure GK stuff.

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> The lack of variants is wierd, I agree... Maybe to make everything fitin a single dex while leaving enough room for pure GK stuff.
> 
> Phil


It would be a shame if this turns out to be the case, because these rumours basically point to _Codex: Grey Knights and their Watered Down IG Buddies_. It's not like the Vendetta/Devil Dog/Bane Wolf take much space anyway. That's three slots.

Codex: BA has 33 troops and 13 vehicles. Codex: SW has 25 troops and 13 vehicles. Finally, Codex: IG has 41 troops and 21 vehicles (!). There's a lot of room for the variants; plus if the objective is to sell more IG kits (which is what the Deathstrike shtick would seem to be, if real) there's no reason not to get those variants in.


----------



## coke123

Isn't this codex entitled Grey Knights? Does this codex really need platoons of conscripts? I mean, we're fighting daemons here- the reason GK are chosen to fight them is because they're incorruptable (as well as badass), so what, you're just going to take a bunch of unprofessional soldiers and subject them to father nurgle's plagues and slaanesh's twisted perversion on pleasure, and just hope to god that they don't turn they don't turn to chaos worship?

and penal Legion? I'm not familiar, can someone help me out? There are way too many guard in this codex at this point, if these are true.


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> _Codex: Grey Knights and their Watered Down IG Buddies_.


I think you mean Codex: Watered Down IG and their Grey Knight Buddies.

However, it's simple to see why the Vendetta, Devil Dog and whatnot aren't in that list. The kits are the same. The Hellhound kit also makes the DD and BW - the Deathstrike kit also makes the Manticore and the Valkyrie+Forge World sorcery makes the Vendetta.

If GW want to sell a load of IG kits to Grey Knight players, they need only include one variant of each kit in the codex.


One rather has to feel for the Grey Knight player at this point. He's got a Land Raider from the Black Templars, a Stormraven from the Blood Angels (which itself has a missile launcher stolen from the Sisters of Battle) and a pick 'n' mix of Imperial Guard all admixed with the Inquisitorial units he already had, and somewhere amongst all that, some sort of Space Marine with grey armour...

I imagine little Timmy walking into the gaming club sometime early next year...

Other player: What army do you have?
Little Timmy: _I DON'T KNOW!_ - and then he starts crying.


----------



## Mathai

Heh heh heh, poor Timmy.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I cannot comment on rumours that the SOB codex will feature "tyranid on leash" units


----------



## boreas

I've seen the greens of Sister Yeehaa riding a carnifex waving a cowboy hat.

Phil


----------



## Winterous

Why do people think a Deathstrike being requisitioned by an Inquisitor is dumb?
It's like, bringing in the heavy artillery, it makes perfect sense (except it being within 50 metres of the enemy, instead of in a different country).


----------



## coke123

I think its more a problem of people wanting it to be a grey knights codex, rather than an IG clone.

Frankly this just doesn't make sense. If they're going to do this, why bother doing away with allies?


----------



## Dynamike

Ok sooooo let's see what I am going to bring to the table to beat you today!

I've got..

Conscripts

A deathstrike missile

A few valks...

Friend: Oh!? So you finally decided to start a new Imperial Guard Army?

No I also have an Inquisitor! I play Codex Grey Knights! ^_^


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> Frankly this just doesn't make sense. If they're going to do this, why bother doing away with allies?


They're doing away with allies so that IG players cannot field and Inquisitor Lord and a couple of Mystics. A side-effect of that is that they still want GK players to buy IG kits, so they have to put them in the Codex.




Dynamike said:


> No I also have an Inquisitor! I play Codex Grey Knights! ^_^


 - and then you start crying.



Fingers remain crossed that Stickmonkey was right and this is all inaccurate.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> They're doing away with allies so that IG players cannot field and Inquisitor Lord and a couple of Mystics. A side-effect of that is that they still want GK players to buy IG kits, so they have to put them in the Codex.


Ah, forgot it acts both ways.



Azezel said:


> - and then you start crying.


And we don't just cry, we break down into a mad fit of sobs so incredibly violent that it triggers a cardiac arrest.



Azezel said:


> Fingers remain crossed that Stickmonkey was right and this is all inaccurate.


Fingers, toes, arms, legs, just about any appendage that can be crossed. And then install prosthetics so we can have even more crossed.


----------



## boreas

I, for one, hope it's not a pure GK codex... GKs themselves are very different from marines but adding some IG units makes for a lot of difference. Plus it add "mass" to the armies, which is sorely needed. Elite armies don't do well in the current ruleset. No matter how good each GK is, they are going to be swamped by cheaper troops. Fearless, poisonous, furious charge termagants will outnumber you 5-to-1 or worse. Same with Orks. 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

> They're doing away with allies so that IG players cannot field and Inquisitor Lord and a couple of Mystics. A side-effect of that is that they still want GK players to buy IG kits, so they have to put them in the Codex.


They could easily fix this by changing the rule to WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!
Making it so that the Inquisitor can requisition units from other codicies, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Its the Inquisitor who has the power to request units to be turned over to him, not the IG commander or SM dude.

I dont understand why people are so upset about the Valkyrie? It has been stated pretty much from the very beginning that Inquisitors with IST can use the Valkyrie or Chimera for transports while GK gets LR and SR.

As for fluff this post on Warseer does make allot of sense.



> So they don't feel bad about the post-action cleanup.
> 
> Penal Legionnaire: "Fighting those demons was terrible! I've learned so much about the horrible nature of the Warp. I feel like my head's going to explode!"
> 
> Inquisitor: "That's not why your head's going to explode." *pushes collar bomb button*
> 
> PDF and doomed criminals are a lot easier to dispose of after the fact. IG commanders eventually start asking annoying questions . ISTs are trained to handle it so it's not necessary, obviously.


Fluff-wise, pretty much dead on.  The Inquisition pretty much has no problem wiping out regiments if necessary. But taking Penal soldiers in and then shooting them afterwards to 'prevent corruption' is spot on fluff wise.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont understand why people are so upset about the Valkyrie? It has been stated pretty much from the very beginning that Inquisitors with IST can use the Valkyrie or Chimera for transports while GK gets LR and SR.


I think the Valkyrie is the bit that bothers people the least.

Inquisitors and ISTs were expected and, honestly, they have an excuse to be in the Codex - the GK _are_ part of the Inquisition. now, so long as you have ISTs, well, they need transport, so Chimeras and Valkeries are legitimate, so far as it goes.

So far, so good...

Then there's the penal legions, the Deathstrikes and Hell Hounds, and conscripts and servitors... _That's_ the bit that people seem to object to - it's the bit that bothers me - the bit that looks like it comes from some other army's Codex.


----------



## Dynamike

I totally understand players like Boreas who hope for a codex GK that is not only pure GK. It adds to the variety of the codex, what you can take, your options, etc. I think it is a good thing to have variety so that in the end you can see really different army lists on the table with the same codex.

But what I also personnally hope is that they still make pure GK also a playable option. It is codex GK after all. I don't want to "have" to take IG units to be viable on the table or hope for a draw every time we play. Once this is fixed, then to me it is fine to be able to have other inquisitorial units added to the GK or even to take only the inquisitorial units if you "want to" and not because you "have to".


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> I, for one, hope it's not a pure GK codex... GKs themselves are very different from marines but adding some IG units makes for a lot of difference.


I agree, but this is too far. I want the codex to be centred aroung the knights, with some inquisitorial flavour, not 50% guard, 50% shiny marines. If I wanted to play with guardsmen, I'd play Imperial guard.



MadCowCrazy said:


> They could easily fix this by changing the rule to WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!
> Making it so that the Inquisitor can requisition units from other codicies, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Its the Inquisitor who has the power to request units to be turned over to him, not the IG commander or SM dude.
> 
> I dont understand why people are so upset about the Valkyrie? It has been stated pretty much from the very beginning that Inquisitors with IST can use the Valkyrie or Chimera for transports while GK gets LR and SR.
> 
> As for fluff this post on Warseer does make allot of sense.
> 
> 
> Fluff-wise, pretty much dead on.  The Inquisition pretty much has no problem wiping out regiments if necessary. But taking Penal soldiers in and then shooting them afterwards to 'prevent corruption' is spot on fluff wise.


I'm with you on the allies rule, although frankly so long as they make the new codex competative (as they do with all shiny new codicies) I don't really care if it goes. I love that fluff, btw!

Oh, and I'll ask again, can someone please explain penal legion to me? I was under the impression that they were the guards of a penal colony, but evidently I'm wrong.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Penal Legion are soldiers convicted of a serious crime (as far ass the Commissars are concerned) that are transferred into a Penal Legion, they're given the most suicidal, and thankless, jobs and kept in the most horrific conditions. Imagine the inmates of deathrow, with military training, banded together into a regiment and pointed at the enemy.

Edit: Valkyries actually have more business being under orders from the Inquisition than the Imperial Guard, they're Imperial Navy craft which support the IG but aren't responsible to their chain of command except at the highest level- whereas every Institution falls under the Inquisitions purview.


----------



## oblivion8

> the GK are part of the Inquisition


Im pretty sure the are not, they are a chapter of space marines and part of the ordo malleus. I dont think they are actually directly part of the inquisition are they?


----------



## Baron Spikey

Well the Ordo Malleus is the Inquisition so if they're a part of that...


----------



## boreas

coke123 said:


> I agree, but this is too far. I want the codex to be centred aroung the knights, with some inquisitorial flavour, not 50% guard, 50% shiny marines. If I wanted to play with guardsmen, I'd play Imperial guard.


Don't forget, though, that there will possibly be 20+ GK entries (plus special characters!). I also hope I can play pure GK. So let's say there is (and I'm just trowing ideas): 

-GKGK
-GK chaplain
-GK character (exorcist!? Paladin!?)

-GK termi
-GK GK battle psycher (!?)
-GK dread
-GK psycher dread

-AAGK

-GK teleport assault
-GK bikers
-Storm Raven

-GK LR
-GKLRC
-GKLRR
-gk uber walker
-GK purgation squad

Then add 5 more entries of your choice... Now tell me you can't play pure GK even though there are 10 "IG" entries!? Remember that unlike SM, you'll be paying a LOT of point for your basic GK troop, so even if you have 40 "pure GK" entries you won't be able to use those in most lists because you'll have 700pts of Troops and 160-300 points of character. Add a LR and a SR (you need mobility) and you're at 1300-1400 points!!! I want to play pure GK, I just don't think that adding 10 IG entries will ruin a codex, quite the contrary!

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

Fluffwise, GK's are a space marine chapter, specifically created and trained to fight demons. To that purpose, they were place on permanent attachment to the Ordo Mallus as their Chamber Millitant.

Of their many grand masters, one is always a member of the Inquisitions inner Conclave...

Soo, fluffwise at least, they are both Marine and Inquisition.



And there aren't any GK bikers, its been pretty much confirmed they were dropped.

You can pretty much say though there will by several characters, TA and PA GK's, A dread of some sort, the stormraven, land raiders.... and then probably variations on these.


----------



## boreas

I didn't know about bikers... Since Jetbikes are out, I thought they might get bike. Still, I pretty much just listed a bunch of thing to show that 20+ Gk units are sufficient.


----------



## GrizBe

The jetbikes would be the bikers for GK. Theres no point having an advanced and a mundane version of something that essential fills the same roll.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bit from mr Stickmonkey

With regard to the "fodder" units. Dont mistake my use of the term for them being worthless or untrained. But compared to a GK...yes they would be fodder.

I did not have the CSM book near me, but I thought summoned daemons in CSM did still have an instability rule? Regardless this Purge weapon has a special ability to cause it.
The infestation rule as described depended on some form of instability for certain daemonic units. I dont have any other info on it. Like I said, the rules info I have is subject to change.

Another bit I missed is chaos icons do not function within X" of GK units...this is GK only units not other units included in the army list. So GK in TA, AA, or PA. Not sure of GK vehicles or walkers. I think this is tied to the hoods.

Of note compared to prior posts, gone are any references to or imagery of Jetbike riding GK. I'm disappointed by this, as I think a unit of GK on jetbikes would have been pretty cool. Expecially since they were supposed to be optionally fast attack or could take a unit upgrade to an elites slot.

Cheers.

PS: Am aware of the Codices correct usage. but add a p and an e and you've got a bit of armor... Codii is not a word at all, but if the meaning is conveyed in context, does it make much more of an issue than lol or OMG?


----------



## coke123

Baron Spikey said:


> Penal Legion are soldiers convicted of a serious crime (as far ass the Commissars are concerned) that are transferred into a Penal Legion, they're given the most suicidal, and thankless, jobs and kept in the most horrific conditions. Imagine the inmates of deathrow, with military training, banded together into a regiment and pointed at the enemy.


Ah, thanks. So Penal Legion=Marcus Fenix (from gears of war)?

I've gotta say, I wish there was some kind of cheaper tank option available to the GK. Is there any reason they shouldn't be able to take a predator?


----------



## Dynamike

Kind of following on coke123's idea of GK vehicles, does anyone knows in the fluff or in any stories if the Grey Knights had access to special vehicles(like made for the GK) and most specificly maybe some specific kind of Land Raiders?

As for the predator, I might be wrong but it was probably just not introduced in the "current" 3rd edition codex due to the nature of the regular enemies fought by the Grey Knights. I would believe the GK would first need a transport vehicle as epic as they are which can also have big guns mounted on it. The predator is nice but can't transport and the GK don't need to kill much tanks in the fluff we can read in the codex. 

As for today, it might be added in, or not depending on how they build the idea behind the new codex. How about a predator with assault cannons and a psycannon on each side?


----------



## coke123

It doesn't really say anything about GK vehicles in the codex fluff. The GK have two vehicles available to them via Imperial armour- The LR Redeemer and the Razorback. Then theres the Storm Raven. So unless theres been vehicles introduced via black library, there isn't anything that unique. I agree that they need transports, but theres no reason that they can't have both Razorback, the 3 LR variants, and a predator. Thats still fewer tanks than any SM codex that I'm aware of. I also desperately hope they overhaul purgation squads to include more weapon options.

As for the sentiment of GK not needing to fight tanks I've said it before and I'll say it again- they still fight possessed vehicles, traitor guard trying to summon daemons, soulgrinders, CSM, Eldar who have screwed around with the webway too much, Orks who are inadvertantly worshipping Khorne instead of Gork or mork or whatever. Just read the "Daemonhunters Narratives" section of the codex; they give reasons for fighting everyone, and hence they need to be abke to deal with everyone, and hence they need more anti-armour.

Though that predator configuration is bloody terrifying! It would certainly solve my problems vs DE.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

There has been talk about both GK and SoB getting access to some new tank, something thats a mix between a LR and This, Im not sure if it might be the LR Achilles that could be seen at Games Day UK. I dont think it would be the same since FW is making the Achilles model, probably for the next IA book.

Though this has always been a very very early rumour, about 8 months old, it could have been someone confusing the FW concept art for a new GK/SoB vehicle.

Penal legionnaires have basic human stats (3 on everything pretty much), flak armour and are given a lasgun. They come in groups of 9 + a custodian, they have scouts and stubborn.
The special thing about them is their Desperadoes rule, its similar to many rules of the same type. Roll a D6, 1-2 their guns become A2, 3-4 they get counter-attack, fleet and FC, 5-6 they get an additional cc weapon and rending.

At 8 FW cost they are dirt cheap, together with scouts rule they can do some really nasty outflanking but I guess their downside is you only get 10 of them. Id love to outflank with squads of 20 of these but alas you can not. They die like flies to anything but are a good distraction unit you can use to really mess people up.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Penal legionnaires have basic human stats (3 on everything pretty much), flak armour and are given a lasgun. They come in groups of 9 + a custodian, they have scouts and stubborn.
> The special thing about them is their Desperadoes rule, its similar to many rules of the same type. Roll a D6, 1-2 their guns become A2, 3-4 they get counter-attack, fleet and FC, 5-6 they get an additional cc weapon and rending.
> 
> At 8 FW cost they are dirt cheap, together with scouts rule they can do some really nasty outflanking but I guess their downside is you only get 10 of them. Id love to outflank with squads of 20 of these but alas you can not. They die like flies to anything but are a good distraction unit you can use to really mess people up.


So... Identical to the ones from the IG codex?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> So... Identical to the ones from the IG codex?


Well, the ones I mentioned were from codex IG 
Dont know if they are any different in codex GK, or if they will even be in it.
If you got a play test codex from GW then by all means send it to me


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, the ones I mentioned were from codex IG
> Dont know if they are any different in codex GK, or if they will even be in it.
> If you got a play test codex from GW then by all means send it to me


Oh, I thought you were referring to the GK ones :S
And PSSHT, I WISH!


----------



## Vhalyar

Winterous said:


> So... Identical to the ones from the IG codex?


Stickmonkey was pretty specific about the penal legion:



> Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry


----------



## Winterous

And Vhalyar's post just confused me even more.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> There has been talk about both GK and SoB getting access to some new tank, something thats a mix between a LR and This, Im not sure if it might be the LR Achilles that could be seen at Games Day UK. I dont think it would be the same since FW is making the Achilles model, probably for the next IA book.


Is it just me, or does that Achilles thing have multimelta sponsons? That would be awesome. Though I thought that guy you spoke to at games day said that the next IA would be about Eldar, so why would GK and SoB be in it?

And I vaguely recall some talk of a LR with a demolisher cannon. Has anyone heard anything about this?


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> And I vaguely recall some talk of a LR with a demolisher cannon. Has anyone heard anything about this?


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...pace_Marines_Datasheet_-_Land_Raider_Ares.pdf


----------



## coke123

Thats the one.


----------



## GrizBe

GK vehicles usually have Psycannons replacing the basic armaments, soo, I'm guessing you could class that as their personal vehicles....

I'm guessing that the 'crossed vehicle' may by the Achilles, but I dunno about GK's getting it as it is a Forge World Model... I'd LOVE if it was in the codex though, as being armed with a thunderfire cannon, and twin linked multi meltas.... Ouch....


As for Penal Legions... well, they do seem spot on fluffwise.... Think about it, they're IG troopers who've commited crimes and been put into a legion and sent on the most dangerous and deadly of missions.... soo in effect, they're a suicide squad.

Facing demons, chaos etc... with a bunch of purely expendable troops, its not much bother afterwards to kill them off incase of taint and to stop them talking etc, while leaving loyal legions intact.

If they exist.. I'll be painting mine Yellow like the Red Dwarf Canaries  lol


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Is it just me, or does that Achilles thing have multimelta sponsons? That would be awesome. Though I thought that guy you spoke to at games day said that the next IA would be about Eldar, so why would GK and SoB be in it?


What I ment was that the Achilles is probably a new LR variant for whom ever is fighting the Eldar in the next IA book. This is why I dont think the Achilles is that new tank that GK and SoB are rumoured to get.

If I remember correctly the rumour basically said that GK and SoB would get some new type of tank, something thats a mix between a LR and that tank I liked to in my earlier post. Someone could have mistaken the Achilles for the rumoured tank or they could have mistaken the Achilles for something that the GK or SoB would get. Either way there is no real way of knowing until we get our hands on the GK codex or get some better rumours.

So to make what I just said clearer :
Achilles = May or may not be a new LR variant for whom ever will be fighting the Eldar in the new IA book.

GK and SoB are rumoured to be receiving some new type of tank that is said to be a mix between a LR and the Valdor Tankhunter.

The Achilles probably looks similar to what that mix would be like so who ever saw the early artwork for this new tank might have mistaken the Achilles for something the GK and SoB would get.


----------



## Kettu

Ok, so I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track here.
Are Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights rumoured to be; 
A) Getting a LR variant. _Oh god, please no. Last thing we need is Sisters to be 'like marines but...'_
B)Are getting that Forge World Tank with the awkward asymmetrical design.
C)Are getting a LR version of the FW Tank.
D)None of the above and the rumour has mutated from its original self or was mistaken to begin with.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> Ok, so I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track here.
> Are Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights rumoured to be;
> A) Getting a LR variant. _Oh god, please no. Last thing we need is Sisters to be 'like marines but...'_
> B)Are getting that Forge World Tank with the awkward asymmetrical design.
> C)Are getting a LR version of the FW Tank.
> D)None of the above and the rumour has mutated from its original self or was mistaken to begin with.


I highly doubt that SoB will get a Land Raider of any kind, since they are exclusively owned by Space Marines (and Orks); that rumour is intended for GK.


----------



## GrizBe

If anything, its some combination of B and C with probably a dollop of D. Theres no chance of sisters getting a Lr unless they suddenly decide to turn them into female marines... black carapace et all.


----------



## mahavira

The inquisitor lord in both WH and DH was able to take a Land Raider (though the WH one was wierdly defective, as it was neither an assault vehicle nor did it have the normal machine spirit rule), and all non-walker SoB vehicles are based off the Rhino chassis, which is primarily used by Space Marines. It's not a huge stretch for some kind of LR (probably Redeemer) to be available to the Canoness and retinue, or to the IL if they still have one. That said, if the codices are separate and quite a ways apart, it doesn't seem likely that a given rumor would be talking about both (except possibly in IA because those books are multiarmy suppliments).


----------



## Vhalyar

More Stickmonkey details



Stickmonkey said:


> From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:
> 
> Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished
> 
> Hq: 8-9 entries
> El: 6-7 entries
> Tr: 6 entries
> Fa: 7 entries
> He: 8 Entries
> Dt: 4 entries
> 
> Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.
> 
> If true, then you've got a lot of gaps to fill.


----------



## GrizBe

HQ: Well, we can guess some of that is characters, Stern, the chaplin guy, Grand Master and probably an =I=. 

Elite: Terms, Chaplin, Psy-dreads? AA GKs?

Troops: PA GK's, AA GK's, IST's.

FA: Purgation squad? Stormraven? 

He: Purgation, Dreads, Stormraven maybe?



I'm only guessing, but you could see where rumoured units could fit... but theres still quite a few slots to fill...


----------



## Dynamike

Wow that sounds just awesome. Looks like the current codex with rather limited choice would become a big one with plenty of options! For around 39 entries that seems pretty massive!


----------



## Vhalyar

Based on all the Stickmonkey stuff, we'd be looking at:

HQ:

GK Grandmaster
Inquisitor Lord
Inquisitor Lord Retinue Characters? I suppose they count as an entry
GK Chaplain
Stern
 ??? (Named character most likely)
 ??? (Named character most likely)
 ??? (Named character most likely)
Elite:

Librarian Dreadnought?
Death Cult Assassins
"Temple" Assassin
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
GK Terminators
 ???
 ???
Troops:

GK Power Armour
Conscripts
Penal Legion
 ???
 ???
 ???
FA:

Hellhound
Storm Raven?
 ??? (Special Land Speeder he talked about?)
 ???
 ???
 ???
 ???
Heavy:

Land Raider & variants?
Rhino-chassis stuff?
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
GK Walker?
 ???
 ???
 ???
 ???
Dedicated Transports:

Land Raider + Whatever variants?
Rhino + Whatever variants? Or maybe drop pods.
Chimera
Valkyrie

I think the Leman Russ will show up too, what with that huge quantity of Heavies. SM said those entries don't include variants... so that's really a ton of slots to fill. Especially in the troops section. Maybe we'll see inducted Space Marines in there? Blah...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> Ok, so I'm having a bit of trouble keeping track here.
> Are Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights rumoured to be;
> A) Getting a LR variant. _Oh god, please no. Last thing we need is Sisters to be 'like marines but...'_
> B)Are getting that Forge World Tank with the awkward asymmetrical design.
> C)Are getting a LR version of the FW Tank.
> D)None of the above and the rumour has mutated from its original self or was mistaken to begin with.


From what I remember it is NOT a new LR variant, it is suppose to look similar to a LR and the Valdor mixed together. It is suppose to be a GK and SoB vehicle only.

So basically they might keep the LR hull or parts of it, replace the assault ramp with a huge gun of some sort and change around a few things.


----------



## Dlanor

Oh wow, something to look forward to for next year. Thanks a lot for gathering all this info, must have taken some effort.

I sincerely hope the Penitent Engine doesn't get scrapped, I always loved that model a lot, it would be great if I could use it with this new codex.

Again, thank you for this thread.


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> I think the Leman Russ will show up too, what with that huge quantity of Heavies. SM said those entries don't include variants... so that's really a ton of slots to fill. Especially in the troops section. Maybe we'll see inducted Space Marines in there? Blah...


The Heavy Support and FA sections have me stumped too.

You forgot Purgation Squad and Teleport Squad but that's still a lot of HS and FA unacounted for.

It's possible that Dreads will go in HSthere (possibly even HS and Elite), but I can't think what else. Even with all the other IG stuff I can't see a Leman Russ there, even the Space Puppies can't have one of those any more.

Best guess:

FA
* Teleport Squad
* Stormraven
* Valkyrie?
* Hellhound
* ?
* ?
* ?

HS
* Land Raider
* Deathstrike
* Purgation/Devestator Squad
* Dreadnought
* Orbital Strike (Seems unlikely)
* Maybe IG Heavy Weapons squad?
* Maybe GK Walker?
* Maybe some sort of Predator w/ Psycanons?


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> FA
> * Valkyrie?
> 
> HS
> * Purgation/Devestator Squad
> * Orbital Strike (Seems unlikely)


I didn't include the Purgation/Teleport squads since I don't think they've been mentioned by any rumor yet and they were fairly bland choices. Hopefully if they are included Cruddace will have retooled them enough to make them interesting. Even including those there's still a huge number of slots to fill...

For the valkyrie though, Stickmonkey mentioned dedicated transport only. I guess it's to prevent squadron spam like in C: IG.


> Valk only dt, no vendetta option


And supposedly the Deathstrike is a complete replacement for Orbital Strike 


> Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike


As for the Leman Russ it's true that Space Wolves lost access to it, but then again we're talking about Hellhounds and Valkyries zipping around with Land Raiders and Storm Ravens in a non-Apocalypse game. At this point it wouldn't be much of a stretch to dump the russ in there and sell some more IG kits...


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> FA
> * Teleport Squad
> * Stormraven
> * Valkyrie?
> * Hellhound
> * ?
> * ?
> * ?
> 
> HS
> * Land Raider
> * Deathstrike
> * Purgation/Devestator Squad
> * Dreadnought
> * Orbital Strike (Seems unlikely)
> * Maybe IG Heavy Weapons squad?
> * Maybe GK Walker?
> * Maybe some sort of Predator w/ Psycanons?


Maybe landspeeders for FA? Or jump infantry? Or if they were given a squad similar to, whatchamacallit from SoB, ones that have to take a transport? I believe Tau pathfinders are like this too. This could go in FA.

And dreadnoughts are generally elites, unless you use the master of the forge in SM. I imagine the rumoured walker will be heavy, dreadnoughts elite.

Actually, what I reckon would be cool is a stormtrooper squad that has to take either a valkyrie or stormraven- like a paratrooper squad.


----------



## Mathai

I just hope that the Grey Knights dont just become the next flavor of Space Marine codex. The only thing that got me into them in the first place was there very deffinite differences from regular Space Marines. A few similarities were unavoidable, sure, and even a bit liked. Gotta love the Landraider. But I loved how they didnt have jump packs, had some very unique rules and equipment, and their deep strike was a bit original in more teleportation based than drop pod based.


----------



## DonFer

Mathai said:


> I just hope that the Grey Knights dont just become the next flavor of Space Marine codex. The only thing that got me into them in the first place was there very deffinite differences from regular Space Marines. A few similarities were unavoidable, sure, and even a bit liked. Gotta love the Landraider. But I loved how they didnt have jump packs, had some very unique rules and equipment, and their deep strike was a bit original in more teleportation based than drop pod based.


You're right. What I'd really hate to see on the next codex is Land Speeders, Assault Squads, Devastator Squads and Predators. I mean, GKs are chapter 666, not chapter Space Marine-look-a-like.


----------



## coke123

Now, I understand people's aversion to assault squads, land speeders, and to an extent predators, but purgation squads are really just a castrated devastator squad, there's no reason to not have them with a better array of weapons. And I still feel they need a cheaper tank option than a LR, even if it's not a predator.


----------



## boreas

I don't know... With this statline (from Stickmonkey, I think?)

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning) 

I'd love a purgation squad! 4 S5 AP4 5" blast? Goodbye, Mr. Ork... 12 S6 Ap3 shots? Ouch, there goes your Plagues Marines!

Phil


----------



## Dlanor

Mathai said:


> I just hope that the Grey Knights dont just become the next flavor of Space Marine codex. The only thing that got me into them in the first place was there very deffinite differences from regular Space Marines. A few similarities were unavoidable, sure, and even a bit liked. Gotta love the Landraider. But I loved how they didnt have jump packs, had some very unique rules and equipment, and their deep strike was a bit original in more teleportation based than drop pod based.


Ditto that. That is just the sort of thing I can see GW doing though, seeing as they love the Space Marines so much. Here's hoping they have some sense and don't do something along those lines. 

Personally I have faith though, I think they should realise that they have enough SM chapters by now, so will make an effort to make the GKs noticeably different. 

I agree with the comment on purgation squads. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a few SM weapons included for those, although one or two extra GK exclusive weapons would be very nice, I would've thought they'd have access to more weapons than just an incinerator or psycannon. I think it's probably likely they'll be given a few new options.

If it's an =][= codex then the GKs may not even get a lot of extra things, they could be focusing on extra things for stormtroopers or another branch of the Inquisition. Just a theory, but I just find it unlikely they'll be beefing out the GKs with a ton of extra things.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im sure they are keeping the Pure GK lists and Pure Inquisitor lists in mind and balancing it so both can be viable. Then again GW could be making sure you need both in the same army just so they could sell more kits...


----------



## Azezel

It seems a very real possibility. The old =][= codices are very much written on the understanding that the player will be using everything in it. They grudgingly admit it's possible to play a pure force, but are clear that you shouldn't.


Now, _if_ Codex: Grey Knights turns out to be two codices (=][= & GK) in one book - both designed to function as competant, competative pure forces, that'll be dandy - I can't see it happening, though. And not just becausea pure GK player won't buy any Valkyries.




Azezel said:


> Personally, I'd rather not see stormtroopers in the 'dex at all.
> 
> I realise that there are people who currently play a Daemon Hunters army, rather than a Grey Knights army but if the new Codex is called Codex: Grey Knights (and that's the rumour) then it probably shouldn't contain units from someone else's army.
> 
> To understand why, I offer this sentence from Codex: Witch Hunters.
> 
> 
> 
> Codex: Witch Hunters p.2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While the Sisters of Battle are exceptional warriors and can easily take to the field alone, it is when they are combined with the powerful troops at the disposal of an inquisitor that they really come into their own.
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you who don't speak weasel, that's GW's way of telling you that not having =][= units in your army is playing the game wrong.
> 
> I'm given to understand that Codex: Daemon Hunters is worse - it calls a pure GK army 'characterful'.
> 
> The long and the short of it is that both =][= 'dexes assume that the player will use mostly =][= stuff with a smattering of GK or SoB. Remember, these 'dexes were written as _advertisements_ for he Inquisitor 54mm game.
> 
> That assumption is odd because I don't think many of us picked DH/WH because Stormtroopers or daemonhosts were so cool. I suspect we thought (rightly) that GK/SoB were cool.
> 
> Which brings me on to the putative Codex: Grey Knights. If Stormtroopers are in there, there will be almost no incentive for the codex to provide a GK unit that can do whatever it is stormies are supposed to do these days (Hold objectives as before, one assumes). the Codex will assume you're happy to use Stormtroopers and once again, people who love GK will either have to admix their army with non GK models, or just accept that they are playing a _characterful_ army and sulk.
> 
> It's not like the rumoured =][= isn't a more natural home for Stormtroopers anyway.
Click to expand...


----------



## DonFer

boreas said:


> I don't know... With this statline (from Stickmonkey, I think?)
> 
> Corrected Psycannon profile:
> 24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
> or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)
> 
> I'd love a purgation squad! 4 S5 AP4 5" blast? Goodbye, Mr. Ork... 12 S6 Ap3 shots? Ouch, there goes your Plagues Marines!
> 
> Phil


Sounds good, if it turns out to be so, I'll take 2 and one to go :biggrin:.
AP3 is actually quite a nice imrpovement, just picture your termies with these Psycannons...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

To me this codex is sounding more and more like a anti SM SM codex. They seem to be getting better and better at killing SM than anything else, sure their weapons ignore Inv saves but that seems to be their only real anti daemon ability so far. Plus that chaos marks dont work within x" of them.


----------



## boreas

That would make sense. Killing Daemon is fluffy and all, but it doesn't make for a good army in the metagame, where 50%+ of armies are Meq. Daemons are a very specialized army that's played by less than 10% of players. The other "meta-type" is the horde army and I feel the new psycannon (if the new profile is right) will help us with that (with some help from our penal friends!). Finally, the "shooty" meta-type, Tau and IG, we will defend against with Night Fight (if we do get NF!).

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

Killing CSM's makes sense too for GK's... Afterall, even though they are Deamonhunters, GK do have a wider roll in fighting chaos and taking out those threats normal marines and other Imperial forces can't... So bumping off some chaos boys fits fluffwise.


----------



## Dlanor

They have a lot of wargear that makes them more effective against demons, but nobody's really going to use that unless they know for sure they will be facing Daemons. In the last codex at least, it seemed like they just threw in some optional anti-demon options in order to fit in with the fluff. Apart from that I'm sure GW are avoiding making the GKs too specialised against demons, it would make them far too unbalanced. They'll probably keep the optional wargear for use against Daemons, but give them base stats/weapons that are more 'generic' and balanced.


----------



## GrizBe

And that makes sense from a sales point of view.... having an army thats only good against demons limits the players of it as not everyones going to be fighting demons.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> sure their weapons ignore Inv saves but that seems to be their only real anti daemon ability so far.


That's beautifully anti-Tyranid, not just daemons.


----------



## HOBO

MadCowCrazy said:


> To me this codex is sounding more and more like a anti SM SM codex. They seem to be getting better and better at killing SM than anything else, sure their weapons ignore Inv saves but that seems to be their only real anti daemon ability so far. Plus that chaos marks dont work within x" of them.


Which is great and makes perfect sense from a 'GW Business decision' pov..because to not go this route will result in poor sales overall. GW care about this far more than they do the fluff.


----------



## mahavira

To be fair, other than being able to deal with invulnerable saves and monstrous creatures, what is there to being good at fighting Daemons? Unless you want it to be grossly unfair for them to fight a daemons army you can't do too much, and those anti daemon powers cost points which are then not useful in general. Forget sales for a second, making an army that's fun to play and fun to play against they have to generalize more than the fluff would suggest.


----------



## boreas

If they wanted to put a good "anti-daemon" twist for cheap (ie without really increasing the point cost per model), they cood just make a rule for The Aegis that works like a psychic hood against psychic power _and_ Daemonic powers. Apart from that, lots of St4 shooting (stormbolters) is very good against most troop/elite daemons and lots of high-Strenght CC attacks is good against MCs.

Phil


----------



## DonFer

I agree, fluff wise GK battle only the daemonic, but in the real world every player would like to play his/her GK army against everything they encounter. So no use in making them the über powerful against daemons, when you're gonna fail big time against everyone else (which is somewhat the GK situation right now).


----------



## Azezel

Stickmonkey posted... something. It's a bit too vague to call a rumour, but make of it what you will.



Stickmonkey said:


> I was strongly suspecting march would be the slot back in summer when I made the original post...
> 
> However, I got virtually no info at all on de all the way thru their release, and I know of another codex that seems to be in that same mold I can't discuss.
> 
> What I do know is nothing is set in stone until it's set in stone...


He was talking about a possible release date for Codex: Grey Knights (March), and then, in the second paragraph, mentiens another 'dex in the same mold as DE???


----------



## DonFer

I can't even begin to understand what he meant by posting that...


----------



## GrizBe

Well... its either A) A codex like DE, or B) Its another codex he's got virtually no information on.


----------



## boreas

Well, same "mold" as DE might indicate Eldars... *shrug*

Phil


----------



## Darktheos

I think he is saying that his source has been dry for Dark Eldar Rumors, until almost the release. Also I think he is saying aside from Grey Knights there is another codex in the works both dry on rumors for him.


----------



## HOBO

boreas said:


> Well, same "mold" as DE might indicate Eldars... *shrug*
> 
> Phil


Eldar is also the only thing I can think off that's SM's talking about, but far too cryptic to make any real sense of it:shok:

Is it December yet, I want 'set in stone' GK info to fill in those FOC holes.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If this is the case it might actually be Codex Sisters of Battle, why you ask?

He said "and I know of another codex that seems to be in that same mold I can't discuss.".

So far he has posted rumours about GK, Necrons and Tau but not a single rumour about SoB, if hes not allowed to talk about it then it might be something he has not mentioned before.
In regards to SoB the only things he has ever mentioned was some early sculpts almost 8 months ago. The cat flail mistress looking model and what looked like a female with storm bolters on each hand (could be a GK special character but who knows).

I see it as 2 possible codicies, either SoB (which I doubt) or Eldar. Eldar would make sense if its "in the same mold as DE". I would make sense if they made the harlequins plastic as both DE and E can use them and they are metal atm. I guess it could be a small surprise release similar to that monoschome web spitting wave serpent released earlier (or was it last year).

Could anyone ask about the rumoured GK and SoB vehicle he hinted at many months ago, is it something thats still in, was he mistaken mixing it up with the Achilles or is it something else.


----------



## Azezel

Well, obviously, SoB were the first thought that entered my mind - but it seems really unlikely.

Eldar also seem a long-shot, if only because nobody seems to have mentioned a new Eldar Codex at all until now (if that's what it is) On the other hand - Harlquins, yes, and they are 'in the same mold' - also, that new Jetbike...

BB was talking about some kind of Space Maine next year and that'd be my guess.

Eldar wouldn't be too bad - especially if it came with new jetbike units for my all-jetbike army.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Could anyone ask about the rumoured GK and SoB vehicle he hinted at many months ago, is it something thats still in, was he mistaken mixing it up with the Achilles or is it something else.


No can do, I'm not a member.

Nothing is set in stone until it's set in stone and the first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.


----------



## Dynamike

Combined =][= GK/SOB codex!!! 

......

no not really..


----------



## Bindi Baji

going by certain things I believe he may be talking about BT(an informed guess, not a fact), but I still think that GK are next, 
it's just a question of before or after O&G


----------



## coke123

I would imagine after O&G, since we're about to have another 40k release in DE. Although the beginning of this year was a bit 40k heavy, so I could well be wrong.


----------



## DonFer

Again, SMs post makes no sense at all. It just like throwing smoke into an already dark corridor....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Since we get Skaven in Jan I seriously doubt we would get O&G in Feb, though I could see the DE 2.0 release then or a mix of new kits for 40K like Harlequins for DE and E and maybe a plastic Razorwing.

So far they have released every new codex unique unit really early on except for the Stormraven for BA. I do believe the stormraven will be released with the GK as well as that new walker, I also believe that new walker is a new template for the Penitent engine (probably not the same cockpit but the same body).


----------



## DonFer

Just one question, are we sure we get Skaven in January? With all this GW secrecy I find it hard to believe we have a "stone-written" date for one product and none for other upcoming products. Now if this is just a strong rumour, then we are left with actually nothing certain. Which leads me to the following:

Why is it that GW continues to uphold information on upcoming products? Information concerning new products is given by other gaming companies, and that doesn't seem to hurt the business whatsoever. I wonder why does GW keep new releases under a blanket of secrecy. I'm not asking for every little detail, but hey a 2011 Release Calendar wouldn't hurt anybody. Certainly is not because they've done things like that since for ever, but there must be a real reason for this.


----------



## VeronaKid

GW has posted on their site that the Skaven are coming in January. They sent out an email to customers that the Skaven are coming in January. And, supposedly, there's going to be pictures of the new models up some time this month. So, I'd say it's a safe bet that the Skaven are, in fact, coming in January.

I'd guess that the reason that they keep things under wraps is that, even with all the secrecy that they maintain, leaks still happen continuously (look no further than the IoB minis for proof of this). When that stuff gets leaked out under less-than-savory circumstances instead of as part of an organized marketing campaign, the results (read:sales) are probably less than they might have been, as people are less likely to get caught up in the excitement of the new release. I'm certainly no GW apologist, but don't forget- they are a corporation first. As such, they have to make decisions that might anger us gamers but benefit the company in the long run.

God, I am getting old.


----------



## Azezel

Well, there are eighteen hundred posts in this thread, one thousand in the DE thread and over on Warseer, Stickmonky has more people hanging on every cryptic utterance than the pope.

GW's policy of secrecy clearly gets us excited.


----------



## boreas

DonFer said:


> Again, SMs post makes no sense at all. It just like throwing smoke into an already dark corridor....


Well that would give you a 4+ cover save on top of night-fight... Unless you still have =I= smoke...

:laugh:

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Another reason for GW secrecy might be that they dont want competitors to make alternative models for their games. One only has to look at the Tervigon and Riding wolves for space wolfs to see how other miniature creators can make allot of money on GW not releasing a mini for certain things.

If they had a full release schedule then these freelance miniature companies who only make minis to make money on GW games could make allot more minis in preparation for the GW release.

Gamers are willing to pay allot of money for really cool minis, and if GW has none of their own then people will buy the alternative until GW comes out with with theirs.

Just a guess...

Another is probably Hype, knowing of something a year in advance might cause people not to do impulse buys at GW stores if they dont know something they really want is coming later that year.


----------



## VeronaKid

MadCowCrazy said:


> Another is probably Hype, knowing of something a year in advance might cause people not to do impulse buys at GW stores if they dont know something they really want is coming later that year.


This is the big 'un.


----------



## GrizBe

Unfortuantely that also works in reverse... people hold off buying stuff in anticipation for a release as they want to splurge when it comes out rather then wishing they'd not spent money on something they don't want.

Its a sales paradox... say something is comming out and hope they keep buying other stuff, or say nothing and hope people still buy other stuff.


Personally I'd rather they say when something is comming out so I can save, and then think 'I can buy X to tide me over until then'.


----------



## boreas

GW could very well give early previews and schedules without giving enough details to help other companies. For example, right now, they could tell us about GKs coming in march. They could tell us they have LR redeemers and we would all go and buy some regular LR redeemers (or FW) and paint them. Same with razorbacks. They could give a few rules (they'll have 2d6x3 Aegis!). That would keep us busy and happy and buying stuff. Friendly gaming group could even start testing those rules by letting GK players use the LR radeemer or psycannon razorbacks.

Phil


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## GrizBe

Exactly my point... they can say 'X army is comming in x month' and 'they will have Y units' without giving away any details, and people can think about buying certain units for them now... 

GK's with stormtroopers etc... you could buy the chimera transports etc already for them. Players are happy and GK makes money... then we still can get surprised by the specialist units in the army and buy them when they come out.


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## coke123

boreas said:


> GW could very well give early previews and schedules without giving enough details to help other companies. For example, right now, they could tell us about GKs coming in march. They could tell us they have LR redeemers and we would all go and buy some regular LR redeemers (or FW) and paint them. Same with razorbacks. They could give a few rules (they'll have 2d6x3 Aegis!). That would keep us busy and happy and buying stuff. Friendly gaming group could even start testing those rules by letting GK players use the LR radeemer or psycannon razorbacks.
> 
> Phil


Yeah, well put. Besides, especially with the GK people are aleady not really buying the models atm anyway, seeing as how most GK players are fairly well established, and most new players (including myself) just baulk at the cost of the current metals.

By the way, I was wondering if anyone had an insight as to whether PAGK would come in boxes of ten when released in plastic. I ran the numbers out of interest, based on the current points values, and if one bought ten man boxes, a 2k army came out to be a few hundred dollars (australian, which is actually on par with the US dollar atm) cheaper than an equivalent vanilla marine force. And seeing as how rumours are pointing at them becoming even more elite, the cost should be reduced even further (due to lower model count, obviously). Now, I don't know if this is just a side effect of insane GW prices in Australia, but assuming I'm right could GK possibly become the budget army of choice?


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> And seeing as how rumours are pointing at them becoming even more elite, the cost should be reduced even further (due to lower model count, obviously). Now, I don't know if this is just a side effect of insane GW prices in Australia, but assuming I'm right could GK possibly become the budget army of choice?


Not to dredge up the same old bugbear again - but I imagine that that will very much depend on how viable a pure GK force turns out to be. If players really do need a mob of Penal Legionaires and a deathstrike to be competative then - not so much - but if fifteen plastic GKs, a Grand Master with termies and a Land Raider is a workable army - then yes, they should become something of a no-brainer for generals on a budget. which would be groovy.


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## boreas

I would like to see regular PAGKs (or AAGKs if they turn out to be), be like the sanguinary guards. At 6-7$ per model (compared to about 4$ for a regular marine) your whole army wouldn't cost a lot more (because you have less models) but would look a whole lot better! 

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

coke123 said:


> By the way, I was wondering if anyone had an insight as to whether PAGK would come in boxes of ten when released in plastic. I ran the numbers out of interest, based on the current points values, and if one bought ten man boxes, a 2k army came out to be a few hundred dollars (australian, which is actually on par with the US dollar atm) cheaper than an equivalent vanilla marine force. And seeing as how rumours are pointing at them becoming even more elite, the cost should be reduced even further (due to lower model count, obviously). Now, I don't know if this is just a side effect of insane GW prices in Australia, but assuming I'm right could GK possibly become the budget army of choice?


Stickmonkey touched on the boxes:



> Boxes:
> Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???
> 
> TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?
> 
> PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?
> 
> walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.
> 
> Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.


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## Ferik

Anouther reason they may not mention release dates and what not before they are ready is probably to save face especially if they don't "deliver" by said date... just a theory though.


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> I would like to see regular PAGKs (or AAGKs if they turn out to be), be like the sanguinary guards. At 6-7$ per model (compared to about 4$ for a regular marine) your whole army wouldn't cost a lot more (because you have less models) but would look a whole lot better!


Boreas, where are you? Cause where I am vanilla marines are already $6.20, and saguinary guard are $11. God I hate how Australian GW prices get hiked so much.



Azezel said:


> Not to dredge up the same old bugbear again - but I imagine that that will very much depend on how viable a pure GK force turns out to be. If players really do need a mob of Penal Legionaires and a deathstrike to be competative then - not so much - but if fifteen plastic GKs, a Grand Master with termies and a Land Raider is a workable army - then yes, they should become something of a no-brainer for generals on a budget. which would be groovy.


Well, since it's meant to be entitled Codex: Grey Knights, I reckoned that it should be a reasonable assumption that pure GK should be playable.



Vhalyar said:


> Stickmonkey touched on the boxes:


Ah, thanks. I'm very happy to hear about 10 man boxes.

I must say, after all of this time being put off GK because of cost, it feels odd to even think of considering them as a budget option.


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## Bindi Baji

Ferik said:


> Anouther reason they may not mention release dates and what not before they are ready is probably to save face especially if they don't "deliver" by said date... just a theory though.


that is part of it, 
the later they announce dates the easier it is to swap things around when problems are found late in codexes or models, 
both of which have happened in the last few years


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## boreas

coke123 said:


> Boreas, where are you? Cause where I am vanilla marines are already $6.20, and saguinary guard are $11. God I hate how Australian GW prices get hiked so much.


I'm in Canada, but I always use US prices for reference. Australia and Canada prices are ridiculously elevated. GW is completely blind to the actual value of our dollar. Unfortunately for our local stores a tactical space marine is 4.8$ (Canadian) with taxes and all. Getting the same thing delivered to my door from a England internet store comes at 3.3$ (Canadian). That 30% less :shok:

Phil


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## coke123

Yeah, well, the Australian dollar just recently reached parity with the US dollar, but we still pay twice as much. It's still actually cheaper to order from europe, on the other side of the world!


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## DonFer

boreas said:


> GW could very well give early previews and schedules without giving enough details to help other companies. For example, right now, they could tell us about GKs coming in march. They could tell us they have LR redeemers and we would all go and buy some regular LR redeemers (or FW) and paint them. Same with razorbacks. They could give a few rules (they'll have 2d6x3 Aegis!). That would keep us busy and happy and buying stuff. Friendly gaming group could even start testing those rules by letting GK players use the LR radeemer or psycannon razorbacks.
> 
> Phil


My point exactly k:, a bit of information doesn't hurt anyone's agenda for money-making. I'd certainly go and buy stuff if I knew what was coming. As Boreas said I'd be preparing my army for the new stuff. There must be some mystical reason for this kind of secrecy....:scratchhead:




Vhalyar said:


> Stickmonkey touched on the boxes:Quote:
> Boxes:
> Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???
> 
> TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?
> 
> PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?
> 
> walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.
> 
> Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.


I think they're going the same way of BA models, Sang Guard and Death Company, GK boxes are going to have enough bits to make every troop available in the codex, and a unique army. I hope this doesn't mean we get to have "normal" troop choices, as vanilla marines. The GK have to be unique.

Oh and I'm looking forward for the SR!


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## MadCowCrazy

After reading the DE codex Ive come to realise the DE rules might be a reverse of what Sisters of Battle will get.

Im talking about the DE special rules, Power from Pain and Combat Drugs in particular.

Basically DE become stronger the more they kill and combat drugs adds a bonus to the units that can use it. This reminded me allot about Sisters of Battle when I read it, but in reverse.

Power from Pain is to me like a reversed Martyrdom that sisters have.
The DE unit wiping out a unit gets 1 Pain Token, first one being FNP, then FC and lastly Fearless.
What if sisters had this in reverse but army wide?

Martyrdom: Seeing fellow Battle Sisters fall in battle invigorates their companions to fight with greater zeal to avenge the fallen in holy rage.
First unit to be destroyed grants all units with the Adepta Sororitas rule : Stubborn
Second unit to be destroyed grants all units with the Adepta Sororitas rule : Relentless
Third unit to be destroyed grants all units with the Adepta Sororitas rule : Counter Attack and Preferred Enemy

These are the only special rules I think would fit the sisters. Stubborn because that´s what sisters are, they rather die fighting than retreat but they are not fearless.
Relentless because they are a shooty army and it would help them a little bit with moving back and shooting at oncoming attackers.
Counter Attack and Preferred enemy because it would help them in CC where they suck normal.

These would be army wide rules so as you lose whole units you would become a bit stronger.
I do believe they will remove Faith POINTS but not the acts themselves but in order to keep Martyrdom they need to change it somewhat and the above does make sense to me.

So combat drugs, they remind me a bit about Acts of Faith. The Act of Faith system will no doubt change in some way, probably to something similar to IG orders meaning Ld checks to perform them. Some have suggested a -1 Ld per successful AoF performed, this would reward players brave enough to do many per phase but would also allow you to keep the Simulacrum Imperialis (roll 3D6, keep 2).
There would also have to be a negative side as well, otherwise people would just stack AoF until they fail the Ld check. No more acts of faith that turn could be one if you had some you do in each phase. All acts of faiths performed that phase fail and no more can be attempted that turn or phase could also work. Basically at the start of each phase you select units and what AoF you want to perform on them, once you are done with that you do the phase as normal with the bonuses added from AoF.

Just a thought I got when reading the DE codex...


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## Winterous

The -1 per act used would be a poor choice I think.
Small armies have basically no penalty, but large armies have a huge one.


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## coke123

With that martyrdom system, they'd have to keep the minimum squad size at ten, or else everyone would just take three five-woman kamikaze squads in order to get access to those special rules. An interesting concept, though. And another deterrant to stacking AoF until one fails could be to have a failed test damage the squad, like a mini-Perils of the Warp.


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## Azezel

The thing which immediately leaps out at me from that Martyrdom proposal is 'no close combat'.

Under that system, the opponent would be highly unwilling to engage in close combat - which is all to the good.

He must at all costs avoid eliminating full squads. Easy to do in shooting, he can simply decide not to fire at a weakened squad, but in CC he must attack - he will therefore try to avoid CC, and thus being forced to eliminate the squad.

Me: 'My lone Battle Sister charges your Assault Terminators.'
Him: 'No, anything but that, please!'

File that one under 'things you never thought you'd hear'.


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## mahavira

I actually think advance information is probably bad for GW. For every person who thinks "GK are coming, better buy a land raider" there's at least one who was looking at GK and decided not to spend a penny because they didn't want to buy if the models and codex are changing. Do you think anyone would have bought any Dark Eldar in the months previous if they'd been certain when it was coming and had a rough idea of the scale of the redo?

As to the martyrdom idea, the thing that mainly comes to my mind is that the martyrdom system exists only because faith points are a finite resource. If that is changed, the entire reason for a martyrdom rule is gone and it's perverse to create a system that rewards failure (and I disliked the martyrdom rules in the existing codex too), particularly if battle sisters are going to be expensive troops on par with storm troopers. Even fanatics are more inspired by success than failure - why is your faith stronger because your best friend got killed by a random ork but not stronger when your best friend, through the grace of the emperor, manages to put down that thousand son sorcerer?

Empire Flagellants have a martyrdom rule that allows you to 'sacrifice' models to generate bonuses for the unit - that might be a fit with Repentia, or the ability to get their attack even if killed prior to their initiative coming up - a major current failing of repentia is that if they are fighting even remotely competent melee fighters they will lose most or all of their models before getting a swing in.


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## coke123

Azezel said:


> Me: 'My lone Battle Sister charges your Assault Terminators.'
> Him: 'No, anything but that, please!'
> 
> File that one under 'things you never thought you'd hear'.


:laugh:



mahavira said:


> I actually think advance information is probably bad for GW. For every person who thinks "GK are coming, better buy a land raider" there's at least one who was looking at GK and decided not to spend a penny because they didn't want to buy if the models and codex are changing. Do you think anyone would have bought any Dark Eldar in the months previous if they'd been certain when it was coming and had a rough idea of the scale of the redo?
> 
> As to the martyrdom idea, the thing that mainly comes to my mind is that the martyrdom system exists only because faith points are a finite resource. If that is changed, the entire reason for a martyrdom rule is gone and it's perverse to create a system that rewards failure (and I disliked the martyrdom rules in the existing codex too), particularly if battle sisters are going to be expensive troops on par with storm troopers. Even fanatics are more inspired by success than failure - why is your faith stronger because your best friend got killed by a random ork but not stronger when your best friend, through the grace of the emperor, manages to put down that thousand son sorcerer?
> 
> Empire Flagellants have a martyrdom rule that allows you to 'sacrifice' models to generate bonuses for the unit - that might be a fit with Repentia, or the ability to get their attack even if killed prior to their initiative coming up - a major current failing of repentia is that if they are fighting even remotely competent melee fighters they will lose most or all of their models before getting a swing in.


All good points. Although the martyrdom rule, if kept, should be done through the death of ones comrades- dictionary definition of a martyr-

1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion. 

2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice. 


This is from dictionary.com, if anyone cares. By these definitions, the power gained from martyrdom should be from the death of your fellows at the hands of some force opposing your beliefs, which for SoB, is just about anyone they fight against. Perhaps it shouldn't be as beneficial as MadCow suggested; I think it would be better if squads within 12" and with LoS to a destroyed unit (i.e. units who witness an act of martyrdom) get buffs for the next player turn. This would probably also help deal with the horrible irony of being scared to assault a shooting army that Azezel presented.

When it comes down to it we've got to remember that fun, unique rules like the DE pain points and nurgles tally are only unique until we try to apply them to every army. It really would be better to give the AoF their own system, rather than basing it on something that already exists.


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## Winterous

OOOOH, OOOOOOOH!
Every time you pass a MORALE test 
They're staring at what may very well be the death of them, and they do not falter; this inspires your army to perform greater acts of faith.

Every time a unit within 12" and in LOS of any particular unit passes a morale test, the unit gains a faith point, the unit passing the test gets 1 (or 2) as well.

Stubborn would be in there, obviously, preferred enemy makes sense as well.
Relentless works, even if it is a bit uh, obscene, in a way, for what is basically just a tough-ass soldier.
Counter-Attack is up there with Stubborn in the 'suits it perfectly' department.
Furious Charge makes lots of sense as well.

You get the picture, it would go to more than 3 (due to the fact that you can get quite a lot at once), maybe 5 or something.

So, perhaps this list.

1. Counter-Attack. Inspired by the faith of their sistren, they rush towards an oncoming threat in a respectable display of zeal.
2. Stubborn. The Sisters would not dare dishonour the Emperor and the martyrs at their side by retreating from the enemy, no matter how grim the outlook.
3. Relentless. They fight all the harder, ignoring the strain of firing Heavy weapons on the move, the pain only serves to enhance their faith.
4. Furious Charge. Worked into a frenzy of zeal, the Sisters put every fibre of their being into crushing the foes of the Emperor.
5. Fearless. At this point the Sisters are an unstoppable force, nothing short of death will waver their righteous fury.


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## coke123

Now, I think that's a neat idea, except that morale checks are reasonably easy too pass, it would be incredibly easy to have several of these abilities stack, since SoB leadership (in fact, many 40k models leadership) is quite good. I still think with this morale check system they should only feel the effects for one turn, although perhaps you could choose the ability they gain, or have it randomised on a table? Or alternatively, once they fail a morale check, they lose the buffs. Very cool premise, and it doesn't 'reward failure' as mahavira pointed out.


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## Azezel

Perhaps instead of granting a shopping list of USRs, Martyred units could improve the effectiveness of Acts of Faith?

The first martyred squad gives no bonus - 'est la vie - but every squad thereafter.

Loose two squads and now Divine Guidance works on a 5+? Spirit of the Martyr could start out as a 6++ save then 5++, 4++ etc. Same with The Passion and the Hand of the Emperor.

If things are going badly then by the bottom of turn five you might only have one squad left but by the Emperor are they kicking arse with permenantly AP1/power weapons, initiative and str 10 and a 2++ save... That's a last stand worthy of the daughters of the emperor.

It would require significant balancing, methinks.


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## MadCowCrazy

Problem with that is that you would buy tons and tons of small squads and keep 1-2 really big ones. Sacrifice all the small squads just to get 2 uber killing squads that whipe anything they touch 

AoF would be kinda meh at the start of the game, the point costs system would have to go for sure or you would just hoard points until the last 2 rounds.

There are so many ways to improve the system, I wonder which way GW has chosen to go. I think maybe early to mid next year we will know more


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## Azezel

The same applies for most such ideas, including USRs.

I like the martyrdom concept, but it needs to be done in a way that does not reward failure, or make the opponent unhappy to succeed.

I'm not confident that we'll know anything in the next nine months, but I don't doubt GW can dream up something cool. Whatever (valid) criticisms can be levelled at the last few codices, can't nobody say they aren't flavourful.


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## Dynamike

I don't think it is really a matter of having an opponent unhappy to succeed. I think it is more a matter of having an opponent well knowing that the harder he is going to hit you, the harder you are going to get.

It is like the very essence of martyrdom. The more you lose, the less you got to lose. It is like adrenalin or faith pushing your spirit and body above your average capabilities. Now how it is applied, it is true that there is many ways it could be done. But it is really easy to apply it to the concept of loss. AoF could be either related to this system to boost it or seperate. 

Maybe martyrdom could be applied to units at or under half strenght. Small units would get a bonus on only a few models and bigger units would receive a bonus on more models. Works either way and as usual, you pay for what you get.

Now acts of faith would be better if it was a more liberal system like the current codex which is what made the beauty(and fun) of it. A small and easy management of points which you could bank and use "almost" at will.


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## boreas

Well, shamelessly stolen from Dakka Dakka's Shrike:



> apparently-
> Storm raven mini coming out.
> Plastic GK's coming out.
> Plastic GK hero mini.
> GK dread mini/upgrade kit.
> NFW's will be CCW's, unless the squad passes a psychic test that turn- then they're Force weapons.
> Halberds are upgrades, counting as NFW's with +2 strength.
> P.S: thanks to grey templar for the info


Most of it is old news, but the last part, I like! Buying halberds could lessen the price of the squad (if you have some, let's say, 25 point GKs with SB and CCW and some 30pts GKs for which you bought halberds). Also, having them count as regular weapons but passing a Psychic test to make them PW would be great. First, you would have to make a tactical choice: do I use my squad's shooting Psy power and charge those termagants OR do I make my weapons PWs and charge the Tervigon? Also, that would lessen each model's costs as they would be counting as having PWs basically...

Phil

ps... I do hope he meant Power Weapons. A squad of Force weapon AAGKs would be a bit OTT. Now, if the same "power" upgraded the GKT'S power weapons to Force Weapons, It would be fine!


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> ps... I do hope he meant Power Weapons. A squad of Force weapon AAGKs would be a bit OTT. Now, if the same "power" upgraded the GKT'S power weapons to Force Weapons, It would be fine!


Yeah, I agree, troops toting force weapons is too much. Although personally I'd rather they lost artificer armour first (I assume you where talking about artificer and not anointed armour). for the points cost it incurrs there are just too many ap1-2 template weapons around. I'd rather power armour and an invulnerable save.


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## Winterous

I think my Tervigon just shat its pants.


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## coke123

Your tervigon wears pants? My god, the hive mind is adapting!


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## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Your tervigon wears pants? My god, the hive mind is adapting!


Yes, her name is Lucy, she has poor eyesight so she has to wear glasses, and enjoys reading the newspaper while sitting on her front porch on a sunny day.

*edit*
Oh, and she vomits babies every few seconds.


----------



## boreas

Well, right now my best friend and I are testing lists for a tournament. He's running nids with a list that's got the Doom, 2 Tervigons, 2 termigant broods, venomthropes and some warriors at 1500pts, and I just can't figure a way to beat that list either with my sisters, GKs or marines (let's forget about Tau and Necrons, I don't even make it past turn 3 with those...) So, some nice massed FW would bring balance, I think, just not on Troops units!

Phil


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Yes, her name is Lucy, she has poor eyesight so she has to wear glasses, and enjoys reading the newspaper while sitting on her front porch on a sunny day.
> 
> *edit*
> Oh, and she vomits babies every few seconds.


:laugh:



boreas said:


> Well, right now my best friend and I are testing lists for a tournament. He's running nids with a list that's got the Doom, 2 Tervigons, 2 termigant broods, venomthropes and some warriors at 1500pts, and I just can't figure a way to beat that list either with my sisters, GKs or marines (let's forget about Tau and Necrons, I don't even make it past turn 3 with those...) So, some nice massed FW would bring balance, I think, just not on Troops units!
> 
> Phil


although power weapons on the troops would be alright. Remember, since this is activated by a psychic power, which means there is a danger of perils of the warp, you'd have to risk entire squads suddenly going BOOM! as is with currently using holocaust with GKTs. If this 'power weapon via psychic test' thing does happen, I hope that squad leaders have the option of taking some kind of ghosthelm equivalent.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Perhaps instead of granting a shopping list of USRs, Martyred units could improve the effectiveness of Acts of Faith?
> 
> The first martyred squad gives no bonus - 'est la vie - but every squad thereafter.
> 
> Loose two squads and now Divine Guidance works on a 5+? Spirit of the Martyr could start out as a 6++ save then 5++, 4++ etc. Same with The Passion and the Hand of the Emperor.
> 
> If things are going badly then by the bottom of turn five you might only have one squad left but by the Emperor are they kicking arse with permenantly AP1/power weapons, initiative and str 10 and a 2++ save... That's a last stand worthy of the daughters of the emperor.
> 
> It would require significant balancing, methinks.


Actually one thing that occurred to me was having a counter system which tracks both inspiring deeds and some sort of martyrdom: each time you kill an enemy tank, walker, MC, IC, or lose squads or faithful characters for reasons other than sweeping advance (having your sisters cut down as they flee is not the kind of martyrdom that really inspires anyone to do anything), you add a point, with dispiriting things (squads destroyed by sweeping advance, don't know what else) and as points rack up different effects could happen (army wide bonus to acts of faith, eventually leading up to fearless and fear no pain).


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## coke123

mahavira said:


> with dispiriting things (squads destroyed by sweeping advance, don't know what else)


Basically anytime you fail a morale check or break test, you lose a point? (i.e. their fellow sisters are disgusted by any act of cowardice). Because even if the sisters manage to escape a sweeping advance, they're not exactly gonna look good. Although it means they probably shouldn't get leadership buffs until they have a fair few points racked up, because once they get fearless losing points isn't going to be a worry for them.


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> Well, shamelessly stolen from Dakka Dakka's Shrike:


Shrike is also saying that this will be a combined GK/SOB/Inquisition codex, so, huh, take everything he says with more salt than usual.


----------



## coke123

Vhalyar said:


> Shrike is also saying that this will be a combined GK/SOB/Inquisition codex, so, huh, take everything he says with more salt than usual.


right, ok then. I was very suprised to see a plastic GK hero, seeing as how no other non-vanilla marine chapter has one, and I probably was rightly suprised then. I thought the combined/separate argument was pretty much settled by now, but evidently some still believe the contrary...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some months ago I mentioned I had found a really good paint stripping product that I was trying out, got a pm about it and figured Id share my experience so far. So what did I think of it?

I just dont know to be honest 

Basically what I used was toilet de-clogging, I figured if it could liquefy doodoo it could do the same to doodoo paint jobs.

I tried it on many models with really odd results.

If I put it in really small containers, I used camera film holders, after 24h it stripped all the paint (I did not even have to brush the model, its like the paint just disappeared).

Great I thought so I put it in a bit larger plastic box and added some 20 models. After 24h no difference at all, after 1 week no difference at all, after 1 month no difference at all, paint did not even come off if I scrubbed the models.

Strange I thought so I put one of the models in a camera film bottle and tried again, after 24h all the paint was gone... wtf?

I just dont know what to think of this stuff...

I used Mr. Muscle toilet de-clogging if you are wondering.

I also had some pretty random results, sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not.

I think it might be related to the type of paint on the models. Basically I bought 200 gretchin from ebay for 5£ and about half were painted. These are the ones Ive been trying different concoctions on simply because I dont care if they are ruined.

The problem is I have no idea what they are painted with so its really hit and miss.

Conclusion?

Toilet De-Clogger works godly....sometimes...mostly not....in small containers...


Anyone know of a place where you can download or look at build instructions for GW models? Ive been buying most of my models in bits form from ebay and some are really tricky to put together (Ork Trukk for one though I was missing a few bits here and there).


----------



## Winterous

Could be the light-proof of the film container, or a chemical in the film container that affected it.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Anyone know of a place where you can download or look at build instructions for GW models? Ive been buying most of my models in bits form from ebay and some are really tricky to put together (Ork Trukk for one though I was missing a few bits here and there).


I'm sure if you asked around at your local GW store someone would have the instructions you'd need lying at the bottom of a cupboard somewhere.

As to your toilet de-clogger predicament, I can only repeat what winterous said- either exposure to light or some other chemical in the photo canisters. Was the larger box sealed off as would the photo canister would be? cos it might be oxygen reacting with it, or something to do with pressure. This is pure conjecture, mind you. Try using a photo canister that you've thoroughly cleaned out, to remove the possibility of contanimation from some other chemical.


----------



## Azezel

It's possible that it's the film canister itself (Wow, haven't seen one of them in years). I don't know what the regulations are in Finland, but if it's the same as here the canisters should have a recycling code moulded into them that indicates what they're made of.

It's entirely possible that the chemical is reacting with the canister and the resuolt is what actually stripps paint.

One way to find out would be to cut a canister into little bits and put them in with the models in the big container.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> It's possible that it's the film canister itself (Wow, haven't seen one of them in years). I don't know what the regulations are in Finland, but if it's the same as here the canisters should have a recycling code moulded into them that indicates what they're made of.
> 
> It's entirely possible that the chemical is reacting with the canister and the resuolt is what actually stripps paint.
> 
> One way to find out would be to cut a canister into little bits and put them in with the models in the big container.


I propose that this plan is good.
Also try washing them thoroughly before you do so, to see if there's any difference.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The film containers are those tube shaped ones you put your camera film in and then turn in to get the photographs developed, I have some that are black and some that are white.

There has never been any chemicals in them to begin with unless the camera film things were leaking something but I doubt that. It did not matter if I used either black or white plastic film tubes.

I used a clear plastic container for the 20 models and it was sealed off completely, same as the film tubes. Might have something to do with light or it might be something with the paint used. It does not work well with GW painted models but the ones from ebay I have no idea what are painted with and it works sometimes with them.


We have no local GW store where I live so its not possible to get the construction manuals that way. If there was another way to get the manuals I would have used it but I cant think of one which is why Im asking.

Beasts of war have allot of build videos but they have none for the models Im trying to build. I know I have heard someone, maybe on some podcast that there is a site collecting all the manuals so people can get them for online reference if need be.
I just cant remember where I heard it, sucks GW only has some manuals online but not all.


----------



## Winterous

Hmm, well I suppose it could just be coincidence that the ones you put in film tubes work.
Just keep trying, you'll figure it out eventually.

And yeah, those are a few things that annoy me.
There is no list of EXACTLY what you get in each box set, something that is very useful for a converter.
And there aren't tutorials on how to build every model.


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> There is no list of EXACTLY what you get in each box set, something that is very useful for a converter.


The Sprue Catalogue aims to rectify that. Help if you can.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> The Sprue Catalogue aims to rectify that. Help if you can.


Fuckers stole my idea Q-Q


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Fuckers stole my idea Q-Q


Like those bastards at pizza hut stole my idea for a meat pie pizza. Ah, lost opportunities...


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Like those bastards at pizza hut stole my idea for a meat pie pizza. Ah, lost opportunities...


Too bad Pizza Hut is awful.
I mean really, all the big franchise pizza places are BAD, they make BAD pizza.


----------



## GrizBe

You'd think for what they charge they could afford decent ingrediants, yet they always seem to choose the cheapest, most processed and greasiest selections possible...

Heck, I can buy 4, 12 inch pizzas and cook them myself for the price of 1 from my local chain takeaway pizza place.


----------



## boreas

Yeah, it's like those recipes were written by Mike Ward... Bland and cheesy... 

Just kidding, but boy are we low on new rumors!

Phil


----------



## DonFer

Gimme rumors pleaseeeee or better yet... actual facts...


----------



## GrizBe

I'm bored... lets go spam Warseer with fake rumours and laugh at everyone who believes them. :laugh:

Kidding, that just ends up annoying people... but damn its too quiet for rumours! Someone get a job at GW headquarters and go spy already!


Speaking of warseer though... just noticed that a guy called Rumoured who only joined the warseer forum today posted this in Stickmonkeys thread :



> "Okay This follows roughly along the lines of what is rumored to be released for Grey Knights so I might as well post it here. I did not see it mentioned anywhere else:
> 
> the Stormraven gunship will be released as a Blood angel second wave release rather than a Grey knight one. this along side a plastic Furioso Dreadnought that also makes the Librarian version. This is for either Jan or Feb"


And was banned after only making 4 posts, all rumours on things... *Inserts twilight zone music here* No idea why he got banned...

It does seem plausible though.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think the mods over at Warseer has this hardon for banning people, probably trying to get into "Guinness Book of Lame records for banning the most people on an internet forum".

Sooner or later people will realise what a shitty forum it is and move elsewhere, Id say the only reason people go there to begin with are the rumours. As soon as those people move on to another forum Warseer will be a ghost town. But this is probably just me being a dick since I was banned for a really retarded reason.

There has been some rumour mongering about maybe Sisters of Battle being next and not GK. This has been shot down only because there are more GK rumours than there are SoB rumours.
Now if the above is true and we get a BA second wave release in Feb then the earliest we could see GK would be April unless there was some lame Lord of the Rings release in April.

Exactly what BA codex entries do not have a model? Only ones I can think of are Stormraven and maybe a Battleforce? (if SW can get one so can BA)...

The above does sound a bit weird to me.

I got my WD today and the picture at the end shows that December WD will be fantasy related but it doesnt really mean anything.

We know Skaven second wave are in Jan, this means there should be a 40K or LotR in Feb.


----------



## Irbian

They delete me some post about the posiblity of plastic adeptus arbites, and I still dont know why. Like MadCowCrazy says, people go there for the rumours, but if they continue being so strict with the rules...

But Ill stop this warseer nonsense and talk about something more interesting. Several weeks ago I was able to get some info. Now here is the point, the next info could be perfect valid or perfect fake and I really dont know what is the answer. The only reason why I havent shared yet is because it could be a full mountain of crap. So *take a cube full of salt* and read this:

Edit: By the way, they are questions/answers to a supposed worker from GW, from the fluff department.

* Why do you hate Epic?
- The higher-ups hate Epic because it doesn't sell as well as the main game. 
Yes, they're the money-grubbing bastards you've been led to believe they are, but on the flipside, 
the company's had to do a few minor layoffs for some of it's lesser-known writers and employees lately. 
Even with the money of the 13-year-olds the staff here are constantly told to cater to, we're hemoragging money like no tomorrow. 
If the company goes belly-up in the next fiscal year, or otherwise needs to have some intellectual property sold, I won't be surprised.

* What is the codex lineup? Do you know what is going to be released and when?
Any talk of: 1. New =][= Codex? 2. Necron codex? 3. Salamanders codex?
- Not associated with the codex lineup myself, but a coworker tells me the new Inquisition codex is slated for sometime after the Necron codex, 
which is set for release in 2011. So, y'know, fingers crossed.

* What happend to Squats?
- Squats 'canonically' got eaten by the 'nids. They don't like to talk about Squats around here.

* plastic sisters y/n?
- y

* What can you tell us about Grey Knights?
- Gray Knights will be getting their own codex, from what my coworker tells me. No word on a release date, so that's all up in the air.

* Why do you insist on using a shitty and outdated idea like the phase system?
- Well, considering I do fluff most of the time, I can safely say the continued use of the phase system is NOT my brainchild.
A couple of employees who actually play 40k have complained about it around here.

* Is there any plans to further the 40k fluff?
Some of the recently codex's seems to be hinting the end time has finally come.
Will we be seeing a big campaign again? Or at they officially dead due to no one wanting to advance fluff?
- Believe it or not, there ARE a few plans to further 40k fluff. We're finally getting the picture that some of the fans would 
like to see something of interest happen, and we don't want a clusterfuck like the Eye of Terror campaign.
That's in the works; As much as I want to spoil it for you guys, I'll just say 'yes' and move on.

* What do the working-level staffers think of Jervis? 
(Personally, I think his thoughts on tournament play have come close to ruining 40k forever,
but would love to hear how far the cancer's spread.)
- A lot of the bottom-level folks here aren't fans.

That's putting it lightly.

* What's the big money eater? (talking about the GW having some money problems)
- It's not so much a big money-eater as it is a bunch of little ones, and not enough income to really cover 
everything that they're trying to do. It's not that there's some big costly project(except MAYBE the Ultramarines movie), 
so much as 'we don't have enough customers because they keep walking away from the hobby before even starting.'

* Who the hell let C.S. Goto write for you? 
- Yeah, that was my boss's bad.

He regrets it every day.

*Will there ever be expansion on the Adeptus Mechanicus and all their neat toys?

Also, do you have any hand in what goes on with Rogue Trader/DH? Can you give us any word on what's next?
- RT/DH is all done by FFG, so we actually don't have a big hand in that. Guys like me occasionally need to tell them 
'hey, this needs a bit of tweak, here's what REALLY happens when THIS happens.' That kind of thing. They usually get it right.

* When are squats coming back?
- Well, right around the time 40k stopped being 'tongue-in-cheek' and started getting GRIMDARK, they saw fit to remove the Squats. 
They wanted people to start taking the fluff a bit more seriously, and possibly a little in-depth. The removal of Squats is one thing I never really got, but it's office-policy to not discuss them.

* Which Primarches are considered alive, and what can you tell us of the two missing primarches?

If not anything offical, at least some ideas floating around the office.
- The 'missing Primarchs' have been the subject of a lot of debate among the writers. A few want to flesh 'em out, others want 
to say 'let's leave it ambiguous for the fans to fill in the blanks and speculate. That's always fun for them'

Personally, I'm in the 'let the fans fill in the blanks' camp. A few ideas were a Primarch who wanted to go out of his way 
to annihilate the Necron threat after discovering a Tomb World back during the Horus Heresy, but he could never get
the word out to the Big E before Horus fucked everything up.


* Will there be any new Races or armies coming out? An Alien Hunters Codex? A totally new race or something like that?
- With the recent intent to advance 40k's 'plot', there has been some discussion of a new race or two, but nothing solid yet.


* SoB their own codex? Or as Inquisition? 2011 release?

- SoB and Inquisition are confirmed to be in the same Codex, but Sisters will be fieldable as a competitive army, 
capable of functioning on their own. Inquisition will be the same way; They're basically getting rules to allow them to
function as allies, and be efficient at it. Both options will be totally viable.


* Will there ever be expansion on the Adeptus Mechanicus and all their neat toys?

Also, do you have any hand in what goes on with Rogue Trader/DH? Can you give us any word on what's next?
- Oh, the AdMech will be getting A LOT of attention, sometime in the next couple of years. Again, I want to spoil it for you, 
but they'll come up more than once, and that's all I can say.

* So you guys hate Jervis, Goto and Ward. Anyone you DO like? Gav?
- Gav is one of the ones that the staff really like. Dan's up there too, and I've actually spoken with him at length about a small series of Guard novels focusing on another regiment besides the Tanith. The reason we keep letting Ward and Goto write for us is because they're actually under contract to write a few more books for the line.

They'll get booted or transferred, or whatever. Soon as that ends. Promise. 

* Which Primarches are considered alive, and what can you tell us of the two missing primarches?

If not anything offical, at least some ideas floating around the office. Please say Vulkan, Khan and Russ...
- Russ is alive. Khan's in...a state.

Vulkan's in the same state as Khan.

Guilliman will be dying soon.


* Is Emprah actually a godlike being in the warp currently
- No, but when the Golden Throne finally shits out, things will 'improve' for the Imperium. Or at least the core worlds, closer to Terra.

* So, is the "Warp Portal behind the Throne" fluff still in effect?

Will we get an Adept Custode army if the Emperor DOES die?

Will we be seeing anything more about the Custode? God, I love the Custode...
- Warp Portal behind the throne NOT in effect, actually. Custodes will be getting no attention whatsoever, as playable units, I'm afraid.

* Vostroyans... dead in the water or are they ever going to officially flesh them out more?
- The Vostroyan writers have no plans in motion. Sorry, Vostroyanfriend.

* What exactly is the state of the Emperor, according to contemporary fluff? 
The only thing that has gone even remotely in depth so far was the Starchild thing, with dubious modern canonicity.
-Dying, and going to die. Star Child theory is NOT in effect, here.

We're gonna throw the fanbase a curve ball for that one.

*Also, was there ever a time when Sigmar was thought to be a Primarch, and Warhammer Fantasy just a warp-storm'd world?
-That was something a lot of the writers around here wanted to do behind closed doors, but the higher-ups vetoed it for the 
purposes of avoiding the alienation of the Fantasy fanbase.

A lot of writers on both sides liked the idea, but they had to be party-poopers.

*Is there something about Demiurgs ?
-There's actually going to be a bit about Demiurgs in the next Tau codex.

You know how the Tau couldn't travel so fast through space because of their lack of Warp navigation?

Yeah, guess what?

*So I know you just do fluff, but it would be really cool if 40k/Fantasy switched to d10s and used the entire stat line.

Also, I know that the company is public and needs to show results, etc to investors, 
but is there any chance of them actually listening to players regarding gameplay, fluff, etc?
-Probably not. They're working with what they've got. Personally, as a Guard player, I wish they hadn't released this latest edition and taken out the Doctrines.

* With the recent intent to advance 40k's 'plot', there has been some discussion of a new race or two, but nothing solid yet. << Do these ideas have anything to do with already established but codex-less races like Fra'al, Xenarch, Cythor Fiends, Barghesi etc?
-Actually, no. Sorry, bro.

*Is the intention in codex design to keep the Imperial armies always slightly superior to Chaos and Xenos in the tabletop game?

The lackluster Tyranid codex and "ally" rules popping up and allowing, say, Guard to cover its weaknesses (lack of psychic defence etc) seems to imply that much.
-The Codex staff keeps fucking that up. The Imperials are consistently ending up superior, despite them claiming this isn't their intent.

They just keep screwing up, not deliberately fucking you guys over.


* Will we ever see the gods take a more hands on approach?
-The Chaos Gods will get a bit of attention, we've confirmed that. We're still bickering over WHAT to have them do.

* Is there a timeline on releasing a new Ork codex? Are there any ideas being floated on how to make Orks stop sucking so much?
-Ork codex isn't for a good long while, anon. Sorry. But, we've got a few ideas, namely a return of the biggest Ork warboss ever.

Yep. He's back in action, and Yarrick's coming after him.

* wait a minute.... rowboat girlyman dies, and the emperor dies?

please for the love of all that is holy please, please tell me the two events are completely unrelated, and that matt ward will have nothing to do with it.
-The Emperor just dies because the Throne craps out on him. Guilliman dies because of a certain event that Matt wanted to avoid. Badly.

He's not exactly happy with being over-ruled by our Council of Rowboat's Demise.



* Can we have a custodes vs ghazghkull fight? It'd be a great way to showcase both their powers without fucking anyone else over
-Custodes vs. Da Big Boss?

Answer unclear, ask again later.

* (About Matt Ward.)
-The higher-ups like him, but not as a fluff-writer. I've spoken to one of the guys in charge, and he's admitted that transferring Ward from rules to fluff, and from Fantasy to 40k, 
was an XBAWKZHUEG mistake, and that Ward will be going back to Fantasy rules as soon as their little contract ends.

Goto's just going to get the boot.

*have you read "The Dornian Heresy?"

If so, what are your thoughts on it, and do you think aspects of it could be incorporated into the current 40k universe?
-Doubtful. Horus was the one who fucked everything up, and that's one thing we all agree on.

*Can Psychic Hood affect psykers in transports? The entry says that it becomes usable after model 
passes a psychic test in hoods range but if the psyker is inside a metal box the model isn't on the table and therefore not in hoods range.
-YES THEY CAN FUCKING AFFECT PSYKERS IN TRANSPORTS


*Are Alpharius and Omegon loyal to the Emperor or not?

And is Fulgrim still "alive"? And if so, is he still loyal to the Emperor?
-Loyal to the Emprah, confirming it now. It's part of why the Imperium of Man doesn't collapse under the sudden fucktons of Tau Fire Warriors striking deeper into the Imperium, and the sudden surge in Dark Eldar raids, and the Emperor dying. Fulgrim is 'dead.' Sorry to disappoint.

* will there be any love for the IRON HANDS in the future?
-Iron Hands will be getting a whole lot of love. They need some attention after the clusterfuck Ward made of the Space Marine codex.

* Is gorgutz going to get a mention in ork fluff?
-Yeah, he'll come up in the Ork Codex and will have a few special rules for him. We're still sorting that out.


*So Farsight is the Tau version of Dread Pirate Roberts?
-He's going to be. That's something we've had in mind for Farsight and the Enclaves for a while.

*Farsight Enclaves Subcodex?

ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

Can we have suicide drones? Or at least Heavy Weapons drones that are upgrades for Fire Warriors?
-There's going to be a lot of 'Ork-style' improvised gear for Enclave Fire Warriors. Expect to see Earth Caste Combat Engineers, and Heavy Weapon Teams ala the Imperial Guard for the Farsight Enclave Infantry.

*>Alpharius and Omegon are seriously fucking things up in the background for just about everybody.

Oh, so Cypher is a baddie then? Damn, he was much more awesome as a good guy / antihero.

-Cypher will be a bad guy. NOT my idea. I don't like it. A and O will be personally responsible for killing Guilliman. The Tau surge will result in Ultramarines being called in from Ultramar to go deal with it.

*
>It's going to be part of why Guilliman dies

Hang on.. "why"... not "how"?

TL;DR - Is Cypher an actual baddie? This, I must know OP!
-This is because A and O speak with Tau Ethereals behind closed doors, and convinced them to let the Demiurgs do their thing.

This will be followed by the Alpha Legion heading RIGHT FOR FUCKING ULTRAMAR and taking Guilliman out.

* Chaos Codex?
- Chaos Codex, 2011, sometime in the third quarter.

Oh, and for the record: The Tau will be getting the shit kicked out of them. 
çThe Imperium's learned it's lesson about the Tau and isn't about to let them drive forward with Demiurg-navigated ships. 
This is part of what's up with the AdMech. Expect Skitarii Tech-Guard and AdMech-specific vehicles to be part of the war on the Eastern Fringe.
That's getting a lot of attention.

* What are the plans for Ahriman specificly and Thousand Sons in general?
-Ahriman will take another shot at the Black Library. Thousand Sons are still kicking, but they won't get tons of attention.

*GW staffer, if you're still around, a plea - for God's sake DON'T advance the fluff.

Yes, there's a noisy wing of people who want "progress", but the thing about people is that people are idiots, and people are fickle. 
If you try to change the setting all you'll get is a storm of outrage as they throw it back in your face for not 
conforming to their vision of how the future 'should' be.

The Dark Millenium as a setting and a background works well - works brilliantly, in fact. Don't spoil it with a misguided attempt to pander 
to the internet forums.
-Oh, don't worry. We're advancing it, but not a whole lot. 41k isn't what we're going for, here.

*Will Marneus Calgar be allowed to continue as the super sue Ward made him, or will he be toned down/brought low in the future? 
I remember seeing an idea that had him seceding the Ultramarine pseudo-empire from the Imperium as a whole. I'd kind of like to see that.
- We're still discussing what to do with Calgar. We're thinking of having him be offed right along with Rowboat, 
and making the Ultramarines some kind of desperate, dirty-fighting Space Marine chapter. Ward is NOT happy with this,
but the Ultramarines will end up either irrelevant, or a bit better for it all as far as fan-reactions go.

*GW writter, what happens to the astronicom once the Emp goes down?

Do we find out we don't NEED him to power it?

What will happen to the outer worlds once the Emp dies?
-Well, for one, the outer worlds of the Imperium will fracture into smaller kingdoms, with the worlds closer to Cadia, 
Terra, and the like all remaining under Imperial control. The Astronomicon is something we're still discussing, but we have a few ideas for how it could remain active.


*Why is the Emperor dying a good thing for the Imperium? I thought the Emperor was stopping demons from spilling into the warp and the real world?
-That's what they WANT you to think.

Seriously, the Emperor isn't really the reason why the Warp Gods haven't spilled over into reality yet. There's a few reasons, but the Emperor isn't on the list.

He's nothing more than a psychic lighthouse on life support, and that life support's breaking down.

* Grey Knights. When? How? who are the other fodder soldiers?
-Grey Knights will not be changing a whole lot. Fodder soldiers will include units from the Ordo Hereticus who can be added as allies, 
so for the most part, they'll be a small army of 'Holy Shit What Just Happened' all over your enemy's face.

* (about the outer worlds fracturing) Sounds like a really shitty idea to be honest. The Imperium just becomes this piece of shit that gets raped by Xenos, its just replaying what happened before the Age of Strife. OP said the Imperium gets better, how does getting smaller help it?
-Hey, I said the Emperor dies.

I didn't say what happens next. We've been kicking a few ideas around. The Imperium will make a comeback later, and re-absorb all those lost worlds. 
We MIGHT fall back on the Star Child theory after all, but for right now, we've written that off. We've confirmed the Emperor will die, and something will happen to keep the core worlds of the Imperium together.

Either way, the Imperium will make a comeback. We're still discussing how. In fact, give me some ideas, I'll pitch them to the others.

*I'm really interested in necrons. Love their fluff about ancient betrayal and what not. Will there by massive changes in fluff? I remember somewhere reading about Necrons using warp to move and that C'tan are gone. PLEASE tell me that is false.

Also what new models might they get and when released?
- Couple of new models. There's that Tomb Stalker, but that's a Forge World model. We're going back to the Necrons' original inspiration for some model ideas, breaking out Ancient Egypt for inspiration. There won't be huge numbers of new models, but there's going to be a few.

As for the Warp, and the C'tan getting retconned. Short answer, no. Long answer, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


* Well if I had suggest the Emperor becomes a type of Chaos God to associated with things like order and honour, kind of a typical bible feel to him. If the Imperium has to shrink then at least just have it shrink West rather than the whole Imperium fading into this bitch ass tiny little Empire like the Tau or something. The way I see it the writers just want to turn the Imperium into a Rome.
-Imperium = Rome is actually something we've been shooting for. For a good long time.

You're forgetting, it's been fighting a constant, ongoing war on multiple fronts for 10,000 years, with a dying ruler/figurehead.

It had this coming.

*The guy already has no arms, legs, and is missing part of his brain.
He's damn near more robot than most Techpriests.
And while I do think that the Smurfs need to be brought down a peg (I'm a smurf player for some years), I don't think that just because Ward got silly, that they should be wholesale eliminated as a face. Hell, I thought the only reason that the Ultras held so much Imperial space is because they were the sole Imperial presence so far out on the Eastern Fringe, and needed to be self sufficient to hold their ground?
-Oh, they'll still be the 'face' of the setting. But damned if they won't suffer a change in playstyle. Yes, we intend to release a PROPER Space Marines codex, with the Ultramarines getting their own later with some special rules that show 'hey, we just got our asses kicked. Here's what we can do NOW.'


*Who will come first Tau or Necrons?

In terms of codex and model release.
-Necrons first, both models and codex. Tau will follow. After the Chaos Codex, we'll send out the Farsight Enclaves minicodex.

*night lords. anything regarding them?

also, the throne of lies audio-book was awesome. you planning on keeping future audio-books of equal quality?
-Night Lords. Huge fan, they'll get a bit of attention. Nothing seriously big, since we have other ideas.

*Will GW ever plan to make pre-built models (plastic, most likely) for people who wouldn't mind forking over an extra $40 so long as they didn't have to dick around with OH GOD DAMMIT MY BASE FELL OFF AGAIN TOURNAMENT OVER?

Also, ideas for the Imperium making a comeback:
One of the "kingdoms" of the Imperium ending up locating a large collection of STC designs. Uses them to gain control over the other factions, and begins steamrolling back to the top.
-Possible. That's not my department.

*And what about the mecha and the jetbikes?
-Mechas and Jetbikes will be getting some aesthetic revamps. Not my department, again, but expect the Eldar designs to change ever so slightly.

* (about the Ultramarines turning to some kind of dirty-fighting chapter) 
Only thing that quirks about that with me is that Ultras are all about textbook warfare (literally), being good chaps and whatnot, and they have a great deal of pride from what I can tell. I can see them doing small, elite unit type stuff to represent that they had their shit ruined and so only the hardest of them are left, but not so much turning into power armored savlar chem dogs.

Or am I missing this entirely?
-We're trying to make it a fall-from-grace. They end up needing to break all the rules their leader made so that the chapter can survive.

* When the emprah dies is he gone for good? Or are there plans for him to return in some way?
-Like I said, we're bouncing around plans to somehow allow the Imperium to reunify and keep the Astronomicon running and everything. Not too sure on the Emperor himself.

*So grey knights in power armor might be available again... when? (plastic perhaps?)

I've been hearing plenty of rumor about changing about the daemonhunters/witchhunters. Maybe even making them into either one big inquisition faction (with ordo xenos too). Any truth to that?
-The Inquisition will be covered in three seperate codices.

* So necrons are first. But who is directly next after Dark Eldar. Is it Inquisition? <random colour space marine> or is It necron? Then who?
-Dark Eldar, Necrons, and then so on from there.

*Question:

Any idea where the Adeptus Sororitas fluff is heading? Any major or semi-major changes on the horizon?

Also: Is there going to be any more Sisters of Silence fluff?
-Sisters of Silence are a hot-button topic around here. We're not completely sure where to go with them. Sisters of Battle won't be getting a lot in the way of changes.


* Well cool, I guess the ordo xenos will get some love then. Was figuring on some inquisition line getting made since they're apparently featuring in dawn of war 2.
-Speaking of which (Dawn of war II)...

Eliphas.

Guess who's taking Failbaddon's place?

What, you think that's stupid? We've had this planned for a while. There's a reason he's called Eliphas the INHERITOR. Between this, the spectacular failure of the thirteen Black Crusades, and Failbaddon's track record, the Chaos Gods are taking a bit of an offense to their champion having no arms.


*Hmm. Abaddon. Age old character with tons of fluff about him, imprinted within the minds of all chaos fans.

Replaced by some random guy from a video game.

Me thinks you are lying and are dirty filthy troll.
- How would you feel if I said he had control of the one weapon that could kill C'tan?

Remember? Blackstone Fortresses? There's still one left.


* WAIT, is Eliphas and Abaddons relationship going to be become a parallel to Eberrus and Horus?
- We've actually considered this. Nice little cycle we've got going. Everything old is new again and whatnot.

*
How does Abbaddon die?

Please... give him a glorious end. Something amazing. He kinda deserves it.

It'd be cool if he snapped and started just killing everything near him. Rips the spine out of the Black Legion in his death throes
- We're still deciding how he dies.

Probably epic backstab from Eliphas himself. Makes sense, Chaos is practically built on that kind of Klingon-promotion mechanic.

* Before this 404s, do you know about Warhammer 50K? What do you think of The Ship?
- I have no knowledge of this 50k or 'The Ship.'

Sorry, anon.

* Hmm. Gorgutz in ork codex. Eliphas the new main chaos guy. Not a bad move I would actually say. Anything about Blood Ravens being an offical chapter with rules and models?
- Yeah, they'll be getting some stuff. They won't be center-stage, though, like in the DoW games.

* Anything about The Outsider and The Void Dragon?
- Outsider is Outside.

The Void Dragon? Yeeeeah, remember when I mentioned the AdMech, and them getting into the game with their own army-lists?

....Yeah, see, the Void Dragon's going to start kicking, but he won't exactly be on his feet yet.

* Any new races added to the tau? Dark Eldar got new races.
- The Demiurg really come into their own in terms of fluff, but in terms of actual tabletop gameplay, no dice bro. Sorry.

The Farsight Enclaves will make up for this, with them making a lot of new innovations with older tech, and having advanced down another technological development path from the Tau in the mainstream Empire. This will be shown through the Earth Caste Combat Engineers and Fire Warrior Heavy Weapon Teams I mentioned.

* Are Tau Gonna have a huge aesthetic change? Will battlesuits become more or less Japanese?
- Mainstream Tau will maintain their usual aesthetic. The Farsight Enclaves will be noticeably more 'piratical' and their aesthetic will appear a bit more brutal, and possibly even Orkish compared to the main Empire's Tau. That red paintjob with bone-white stripes will appear a little sinister on certain models.

Also, expect Farsight Shas'la to start packing IG-style bayonets.

* Since Tau are getting Farsight Enclave book, any chance Orks or Chaos Marines might get their Clans and Chapter armies returned to them? Being reduced to mere color schemes was pretty lame..
- We intend to bring that back. That's bugged the crap out of a lot of us lately, and we want to try and bring it back to the tabletop.

* So are mainstream Tau gonna have heavy weapon teams? Also will etherals be useful for once?
- Ethereals, sadly, will still be useless. On the side, only the Farsight armies will be getting heavy weapon teams. That's strictly a Farsight Enclaves innovation. Burst Cannons and some Fusion Blasters wielded by Fire Warriors will be something the Enclaves will be packing frequently.

* What happens to the Emperors soul when he dies. The Emperor has a pretty bright fucking tastey soul.
- This kind of ties in with the 'what are we doing if the Emperor dies' discussions floating around the office lately. We'll come up with something in this vein.

* Will farsight enclaves use kroot n shit?
- No. The Farsight Enclaves will be fielding other Castes in place of alien auxiliaries. They're strictly Tau, and the fluff will explain their 'racism.' But, basically, constantly fighting Orks and some other alien races out in that region kind of desensitized them to playing nice with the other races in their vicinity.

* Question on crons again. Any info on force organisational charts? Will Flayed ones be troops? Whats this about everyone deep striking ive heard?
- Not 100-percent certain about the deep-striking, but Flayed Ones WILL be Troops.


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> You'd think for what they charge they could afford decent ingrediants, yet they always seem to choose the cheapest, most processed and greasiest selections possible...
> 
> Heck, I can buy 4, 12 inch pizzas and cook them myself for the price of 1 from my local chain takeaway pizza place.





Winterous said:


> Too bad Pizza Hut is awful.
> I mean really, all the big franchise pizza places are BAD, they make BAD pizza.


Which is why they should have left the idea to me, I wouldn't have cocked it up :biggrin:.



boreas said:


> Yeah, it's like those recipes were written by Mike Ward... Bland and cheesy...


:laugh:



MadCowCrazy said:


> I think the mods over at Warseer has this hardon for banning people, probably trying to get into "Guinness Book of Lame records for banning the most people on an internet forum".
> 
> Sooner or later people will realise what a shitty forum it is and move elsewhere, Id say the only reason people go there to begin with are the rumours. As soon as those people move on to another forum Warseer will be a ghost town. But this is probably just me being a dick since I was banned for a really retarded reason.
> 
> There has been some rumour mongering about maybe Sisters of Battle being next and not GK. This has been shot down only because there are more GK rumours than there are SoB rumours.
> Now if the above is true and we get a BA second wave release in Feb then the earliest we could see GK would be April unless there was some lame Lord of the Rings release in April.
> 
> Exactly what BA codex entries do not have a model? Only ones I can think of are Stormraven and maybe a Battleforce? (if SW can get one so can BA)...
> 
> The above does sound a bit weird to me.
> 
> I got my WD today and the picture at the end shows that December WD will be fantasy related but it doesnt really mean anything.
> 
> We know Skaven second wave are in Jan, this means there should be a 40K or LotR in Feb.


Just because skaven's having a second wave in jan doesn't mean that GK can't have a release then as well. I mean, it's only skaven models, so they can still put the focus on GK. That said, I'm not expecting them till February myself. 

Also, seeing the sheer amount of new models that will need releasing, I can't see any reason they wouldn't do a 2-month release, releasing codex, PAGKs, TAGKs, HQs, maybe the walker, and a few more shiny but necessary things to the army's function (perhaps a battleforce?) and then releasing the funner, BA related stuff (stormraven, magic dreddy) in the second month once everyone's had the codex for a month to froth over these more special choices.


----------



## Katie Drake

Irbian said:


> Lots of stuff.


BS. Sorry, but I can't see any GW employee hanging out on /tg/.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> Loads of stuff



I get the impression from this that whoever is getting interviewed really hates everyone and everything about GW. I dont think a GW employee would voice his opinions like that.

Some interesting things in there, some contradictory, some strange but its something atleast.

I wont put it in the rumours section just yet though but I will be keeping an eye out to see how much of it turns out to be true and how much turns out not to be


----------



## Winterous

Hell, I think he's legit, nice fucking read at any rate.
But what's wrong with the SM codex? I like it D:


----------



## Irbian

Katie Drake said:


> BS. Sorry, but I can't see any GW employee hanging out on /tg/.





MadCowCrazy said:


> I get the impression from this that whoever is getting interviewed really hates everyone and everything about GW. I dont think a GW employee would voice his opinions like that.
> 
> Some interesting things in there, some contradictory, some strange but its something atleast.
> 
> I wont put it in the rumours section just yet though but I will be keeping an eye out to see how much of it turns out to be true and how much turns out not to be





Winterous said:


> Hell, I think he's legit, nice fucking read at any rate.
> But what's wrong with the SM codex? I like it D:


I know I know, I really know, I cant stress enough the fact that Im the first one with doubts about this :read: But the least I can do is sharing it. Like MadCowCrazy say, the time will tell if something of all of this is true.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm calling BS on alot of that too. Okay, some of it is just paraphrasing what we've already been told, or has been hinted at, but I really don't think that a real GW employee would talk about things like that, or with that style of speech.

Still.. some of it sounds interesting, like Finally advancing the fluff... but too much of it sounds like they're too willing to cock about with long established 'fact', which they just wouldn't do without alienating far too many people.

Soo again... *backs up the industrial thread salter.*


----------



## Baron Spikey

It just sounds like something a guy wants to happen so he's presented a transcript as if he is talking to a guy at GW- complete and utter bull shit, 99% of it. 

I will donate £100 to anyone's charity of choice if even half of that is proven correct.


----------



## Cruor99

I'm ok with there being a nod to the Dawn of War games through listing the Blood Ravens in the codex as a chapter.. 

But having Eliphas take over for Abaddon? When it is clear that Abaddon isn't actually _failing._ He is merely completing a checklist for securing his dominance in the Galaxy. That, I can not see happen. Especially considering what happens to Eliphas at the end of Chaos Rising.


----------



## coke123

Baron Spikey said:


> I will donate £100 to anyone's charity of choice if even half of that is proven correct.


Does that include the "Support coke123's GK fund" appeal? :biggrin:


----------



## Baron Spikey

Strangely enough I don't think it does, it might go towards the BBF (Baron's Beer Fund)- but then again that's a proper registered charity...promise. :drinks:


----------



## Azezel

I don't believe a word of it. Well, some things seem likely, but, y'know, stopped watches and all of that.

The language, the incidental parts, some of the pixels and having seen a lot of 'shops in my time make it unbelievable.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Meh, atleast its something to read while we wait for DE to get released so we might get some GK rumours


----------



## Azezel

Well, that's true. and it's either that or one of this thread's legendary ten-page digressions (not that they aren't entertaining, but rumours, dammit!).

Th following is NOT a rumour, merely my own speculation:

The putative Grey Knights codex might contain higher than normal numbers of special upgrade characters. A few pages ago we were trying to work out what units might appear after Stickmonkey suggested the following numbers:



Stickmonkey said:


> Hq: 8-9 entries
> El: 6-7 entries
> Tr: 6 entries
> Fa: 7 entries
> He: 8 Entries
> Dt: 4 entries
> 
> Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.


Given that GK are a very small force it would seem logical that individuals stand out more - and this could be represented by having a lot of named upgrade characters.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Well, that's true. and it's either that or one of this thread's legendary ten-page digressions (not that they aren't entertaining, but rumours, dammit!).
> 
> Th following is NOT a rumour, merely my own speculation:
> 
> The putative Grey Knights codex might contain higher than normal numbers of special upgrade characters. A few pages ago we were trying to work out what units might appear after Stickmonkey suggested the following numbers:
> 
> 
> 
> Given that GK are a very small force it would seem logical that individuals stand out more - and this could be represented by having a lot of named upgrade characters.


I can easily see this happening too, although I'm not a big fan of special characters unless they give an important buff to a particular army's function a la pedro and a sternguard list (that's freakin cool!). Trouble is there are so few choices in the current codex that we just can't accurately guess what's coming up till GW staff are raving about their latest alleged super unit. I hope there is no librarian or master of the forge option though- GK are psykers anyway so a libby isn't all that special and a forgemeister to me just doesn't fit the knights, probably something to do with worshipping the machine god seeming a bit odd.

Also, I've always wondered about why there don't seem to be HQ level dreadnoughts around (and for that matter wraithlord characters), the fluff always talks about them being summoned for war councils and stuff, yet they don't seem to be involved with command. Are libby dreadnoughts HQ?


----------



## Azezel

I'm not a fan of special characters that _do_ give buffs to the army. I'd much rather just pay X points to make Y unit troops - or hell, just put unit Y in both Troops and Elites (or whatever), but make them cost more if bought as troops, this ain't rocket science.

But of course, that method doesn't involve paying GW £10 for a metal Brother Captain Brian the Blessed mini, so that's that.

I believe that GK could stand to have both Techmarines (if not a MotF) and Librarians, though. They have wargear, vehicles, armour etc, they need _somebody_ to fix it.

Librarians too - every Grey Knight is a Psyker, but some are more powerful than others, and some are going to follow that path further than others. Hell, the Grey Knights should have a Librarian that makes that Smurf chap look like sooty.

A named Wraithlord would be interesting (not that there's a place for him in my army) - but HQ dreads are iffy. Dreadnoughts spend 90% of their time in hibernation. Ancient, respected and wise they might be, but they don't have much of a clue as to what's actually going on. I understand the reason Chaos dreads are so nuts is because they're always awake.


Anyway - I agree, we have little idea what might be in the 'dex, besides some troubling IG rumours (what might not pan out). Stickmonky said the numbers quoted upthread don't include variants (LR/Redeemer/Crusader etc) so we're looking for a ton of entries and upgrade (rather than IC) characters came to mind...


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> But of course, that method doesn't involve paying GW £10 for a metal Brother Captain Brian the Blessed mini, so that's that.


It's called counts-as, and GW encourages it.


----------



## Azezel

I realise that - I'm just saying that GW would rather sell you a mini (any mini) than not, and one way of selling minis is by requiring a character to unlock a given feature or rule.

It's sound business sense and I don't blame them, I just naturally sound bitter.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> I believe that GK could stand to have both Techmarines (if not a MotF) and Librarians, though. They have wargear, vehicles, armour etc, they need _somebody_ to fix it.


They do have people to maintain their vehicles, just not on the battlefield. I'd probably rather a tiny admech prescence than MotFs. I wouldn't claw my eyes out at techmarines, though.



Azezel said:


> Librarians too - every Grey Knight is a Psyker, but some are more powerful than others, and some are going to follow that path further than others. Hell, the Grey Knights should have a Librarian that makes that Smurf chap look like sooty.


If a libby is included (which let's face it, is highly likely) I'd rather see them less killy like SM ones and more like a farseer, a supporting player who helps you make the most of your limited resources. Although my view on this is probably a little skewed from years of playing eldar; this is how I think psykers should play, rather than being walking artillery pieces I feel they should be a weapon of subtlety. In the fluff they could be justified as individuals who weren't quite cut out for the Knights high standards for combat, and so went into a less combat oriented field (although they still kick arse compared to even a normal marine).



Azezel said:


> A named Wraithlord would be interesting (not that there's a place for him in my army) - but HQ dreads are iffy. Dreadnoughts spend 90% of their time in hibernation. Ancient, respected and wise they might be, but they don't have much of a clue as to what's actually going on. I understand the reason Chaos dreads are so nuts is because they're always awake.


I was not aware that dreddys hibernated. Now I understand, that makes sense. I too have no place for an HQ wraithlord in my list, but it would make those iyanden lists VERY interesting, especially when geared for combat.



Azezel said:


> Anyway - I agree, we have little idea what might be in the 'dex, besides some troubling IG rumours (what might not pan out). Stickmonky said the numbers quoted upthread don't include variants (LR/Redeemer/Crusader etc) so we're looking for a ton of entries and upgrade (rather than IC) characters came to mind...


We'll have to wait and see what GW manages to pull out of the magic hat.

Actually, just had another look at those numbers, and realised-7 FA and 8 HS?! And as you said before this doesn't include variants- where are they planning, especially for FA? It's going to go from a footnote in the troops section to double that of the eldar- an army renowned for, well, speed! And 8HS without variants? so LR, dread, walker, purgation squads, what are the other three? DH stuff?


----------



## Azezel

The Eldar may be renowned for speed (I know mine are), but let's be honest, our actual FA choices are a bit rubbish...

As for Psykers - I agree about Eldar Psykers, they should be subtle, yet almighty. Eldar Psychic powers should be the most powerful in the game, yet completely unnoticable. (Though I do like Mind War which is neither).

Human and Space Marine Psykers on the other hand - well, Holocaust is the GK's speciality de la maison and, as I was reminded a couple of days ago, subtle it ain't.

I nailed my colours to the mast as something like:

FA
* Teleport Squad
* Stormraven
* Valkyrie?
* Hellhound
* ?
* ?
* ?

HS
* Land Raider
* Deathstrike
* Purgation/Devestator Squad
* Dreadnought
* Orbital Strike (Seems unlikely)
* Maybe IG/IST Heavy Weapons squad?
* Maybe GK Walker?
* Maybe some sort of Predator w/ Psycanons?

To which I would now add the possibility of an upgrade character in each slot 0 One each for the Teleport Squad and Purgation Squad?

I emphasize again - *these are not rumours, just me guessing*.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> The Eldar may be renowned for speed (I know mine are), but let's be honest, our actual FA choices are a bit rubbish...


For the most part, yes, but I love my warp spiders. Fantastic when used right. Vypers were alright in 4th, but now they can be killed by glancing shots.



Azezel said:


> FA
> * Teleport Squad
> * Stormraven
> * Valkyrie?
> * Hellhound
> * ?
> * ?
> * ?
> 
> HS
> * Land Raider
> * Deathstrike
> * Purgation/Devestator Squad
> * Dreadnought
> * Orbital Strike (Seems unlikely)
> * Maybe IG/IST Heavy Weapons squad?
> * Maybe GK Walker?
> * Maybe some sort of Predator w/ Psycanons?


I find it unlikely that we'll see both valkyrie and stormraven in the same list. Could happen, and I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think so. Same with both deathstrike and orbital strike together- more likely we'll just see variant ammo on the deathstrike to replace orbitals. Not that I'd take a one-shot weapon anyway, though.

Must say, looking at those unknown FA slots makes me sad the GK jetbike idea got scrapped- especially after seeing what they did with DE reavers. I'm starting to think a squad that takes a mandatory transport a la dominion squads might turn up in FA. And I very much hope for a GK predator variant.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

If the GK get an orbital strike, I would have thought this would be more likely a character ability (as per the Space Marine Chapter Master or Imperial Guard Master of Ordonance) rather than a heavy support choice as it is the current DH codex. Mind you I suppose some kind of GK forward observer would be possible as a heavy choice.


----------



## GrizBe

Azezel said:


> But of course, that method doesn't involve paying GW £10 for a metal Brother Captain Brian the Blessed mini, so that's that.


"Do you want to live forever?! Stormravens... DIIIIIIVVE!!"

:laugh:

I'm soo gonna model a big beard on one of my characters now.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Irbian said:


> etc


I'm not going to comment on much of this as it's big and I choose life instead,
there is one part though that I will comment on and that's the discussion on authors, 

Firstly one person is mentioned as still having a contract and being disliked by GW - the contract expired two years ago and despite artistic difference problems and the fact a new contract wasn't offered, said person is very highly thought of by GW/BL head office.


Basically this "person" would only have this kind of involvement (chatting with DA about future books?) with BL authors if they were one of the GW head honchos.

If that were the case then they wouldn't be giving out interviews


----------



## coke123

Yllib Enaz said:


> If the GK get an orbital strike, I would have thought this would be more likely a character ability (as per the Space Marine Chapter Master or Imperial Guard Master of Ordonance) rather than a heavy support choice as it is the current DH codex. Mind you I suppose some kind of GK forward observer would be possible as a heavy choice.


What I was thinking might work is if orbital strikes were made a piece of wargear available to inquisitors. One use per game, but you can buy multiples. They'd probably have to make it so that only one can be used per inquisitor per turn though, in order to stop people taking an inquisitor, buying ten and then just completely decimating the opponent first turn with melta torpedoes and wotnot.


----------



## Azezel

Yllib Enaz said:


> If the GK get an orbital strike, I would have thought this would be more likely a character ability (as per the Space Marine Chapter Master or Imperial Guard Master of Ordonance) rather than a heavy support choice as it is the current DH codex. Mind you I suppose some kind of GK forward observer would be possible as a heavy choice.


That's what I thought - hence the '(seems unlikely)' - but I was struggling to think what else might be there.



GrizBe said:


> "Do you want to live forever?! Stormravens... DIIIIIIVVE!!"
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> I'm soo gonna model a big beard on one of my characters now.


I support that fully - post pictures if you do. Having seen a GK Grand Master with a big, white Father Christmas beard I'd like to see the Prince Vultan version.


I suppose, in a way, beards just work with GK... Must be a wizard thing.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> I suppose, in a way, beards just work with GK... Must be a wizard thing.


Just imagine a wisened old man stroking his beard, looking into the distance, seemingly lost in thought- and then emptying his stormbolter into you. Yep, works for me!


----------



## ptolemaic

Baron Spikey said:


> It just sounds like something a guy wants to happen so he's presented a transcript as if he is talking to a guy at GW- complete and utter bull shit, 99% of it.
> 
> I will donate £100 to anyone's charity of choice if even half of that is proven correct.


I agree with Baron.

This is utter rubbish. There are no details and seems to me just an ugly rant based on someone’s own opinion which is at complete odds from what I have heard from GW HQ. :ireful2:

The quote about the company going under is utter garbage. Check the last filed financial report at www.companieshosue.gov.uk makes the business where I am look positively poor and we turnover more than GW with a lower profit margin threshold :blush:

If you read it and read it again it is nonsense and does not make any sense whatsoever


----------



## hungryugolino

Shame. Big Blue biting it sounds like the perfect addition to the fluff.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

For the last few months I have been trying to find some really cool flame/fire dice but it seems like no one makes any.

The best and only dice I have been able to find at the Chessex Vortex Orange/Black and Vortex Magma/Black.

Vortex Orange/Black









Vortex Magma/Black









Problem is not a single webstore Ive looked at sells them, they are ALL out of stock. There is only one single auction on ebay for vortex magma.
Im really desperate to get some flame dice for my Sisters of Battle (see, on topic with this thread ).

I dont think any of the above dice look much like fire but they are the only dice Ive been able to find that even remotely looks like flame. Does anyone know of a webstore that actually has some in stock? or even better if someone knows of a dice maker that produces some really awesome flaming dice?

The above are by Chessex, when looking at their website they dont even have a picture of the magma/black even though they have been available since 2007 or some such.

Anyone got any ideas? My sisters need some cool flame dice to purge the galaxy with!


----------



## Winterous

Well if you want dice to look like fire, then set them on fire.
It really can't be done


----------



## boreas

What I did for our gaming group is to buy ten dice of each color: Red, Green, Orange, yellow and black. In addition, we had 30 regular white dice. This way, when we have multiple models shooting or attacking we can easily identify what is what. We also try to stick to a color code. When shooting, white is the "base" gun, yellow is meltagun/multi-melta, orange is flamer, red is heavy flamer, green is plasma gun/pistol, etc...

Phil


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> For the last few months I have been trying to find some really cool flame/fire dice but it seems like no one makes any.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas? My sisters need some cool flame dice to purge the galaxy with!


Now, I've always been happy to game with dice garnered from the local $2 shop, or from GW army book giveaways, but I wouldn't be suprised to hear if anyone does custom dice?

Here we are- http://www.kardwell.com/dice-promotional.htmcustom- promotional dice with your logo on them. If you've got 500 bucks to spare, you can order 100 pairs and tell them your logo is a flame decal. Not exactly affordable, though.

Here's another- hopefully you won't have to order in lots of 100.

http://www.customdice.com/

Apparently these guys do custom jobs too-

http://www.koplowgames.com/

Hope this helps, and if you do get some, tell me how they pan out, I'd be interested in some dice to fit my eldar and lizardmen armies.

Either that or manufacture your own from pure potassium- that shit ignites on contact with air!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh come on, Im looking for dice that have a fire motif on them, not dice that are actually on fire.... 

Im just not ready to pay 25£ for 36dice on ebay since there is only one seller of them.


----------



## Creon

http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Custom_Dice_Home.htm

They'll do whatever dice you want.


----------



## mcmuffin

unfortunately this is what i will be taking with irbian's "rumours"









but i would like if rowboat and papa smurf got knocked off


----------



## Irbian

they arent mine dude  (only if they become true XD) but that is something I dont expect

By the way, adeptus arbites as gk troops, possible?


----------



## Azezel

At this stage, I wouldn't rule it out - the codex seems to contain everything else.


----------



## Winterous

Well those orange ones look pretty good (and kinda firey), I'd go with them.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh come on, Im looking for dice that have a fire motif on them, not dice that are actually on fire....
> 
> Im just not ready to pay 25£ for 36dice on ebay since there is only one seller of them.


Yeah, fair enough. Though one must remember, sometimes it's just not possible to do what you want for the money you have. This may be the kind of thing where you're gonna have to fork out to achieve your goal. In the same vein, I would really like to convert a High Elf Sea Dragon, but I just don't want to spend the money on butchering a trygon and imrik model to achieve it.



Irbian said:


> By the way, adeptus arbites as gk troops, possible?


Well, they kind of already are, aren't they? with that silly little footnote telling you it'd be 'really cool' to trade in your stormtrooper's hellguns for shotguns to represent arbites... yeah, no thanks. I just can't see how they'd be armed in a way that would befit a gaoler, and still be useful on the battlefield, unless you could give them all grenade launchers.


----------



## mahavira

WRT Adeptus Arbites, I think you're thinking Witch Hunters. As to effectiveness, at least shotguns are assault weapons and it's a place to put a priest without damaging the rest of your army. I can't imagine why GK would field Arbites - I think if there are daemons manifesting you need more than a swat team.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Well, if Sisters follow the GK theme (as we have heard rumoured) then I guess the canon fodder for the sisters would be the Frateris Militia Band (same thing as IG Conscripts but with Ld6 instead of 5, 2nd Edition Sisters of Battle Codex unit), these would be the Penal Legionaries of the SoB codex and then the Adeptus Arbites would be the Storm Troopers.
Makes sense to me (but Im crazy so my view on reality might not be the same as yours).


----------



## Azezel

Stormtroopers seem more likely than Arbites to appear in C:SoB - though they may do the same as last time and let us swap hot-shot lasguns for shotguns (at no extra cost! Who's a lucky boy then?).

I wouldn't be surprised to see Frateris Miltia/Zealots back in the 'dex though.

Speaking of the 2e 'dex... Does anyone remember Sacred Rites?

For those of you who haven't read the old codex Sisters of Battle (And seriously, beg, borrow or steal your copy today, so much fluff!) before the start of the game, each squad would be lead in prayer by their Sister Superior, or another character, and would gain some minor buff determined by a modified d6 roll on a chart.

I wouldn't be aversed to that coming back. It'd have to be mostly very minor stuff or else, combined with Faith Points things would get quite unbalanced - but things like +1 Ld, Furious Charge, Fleet of Foot etc might be appropriate?


----------



## coke123

mahavira said:


> WRT Adeptus Arbites, I think you're thinking Witch Hunters. As to effectiveness, at least shotguns are assault weapons and it's a place to put a priest without damaging the rest of your army. I can't imagine why GK would field Arbites - I think if there are daemons manifesting you need more than a swat team.


Ah, yes, you would be correct sir. I agree that arbites don't really have a place in a daemonhunter force (of any persuasion). Actually, I'd rather not have them in any army, to be honest.

Whilst shotguns are assault weapons, I'd really rather not arm a squad with 12" assault weapons that won't be any more effective in assault than a bunch of school chums armed with wet towels, unless they have some means of running away.

Oh and on priests, it's always seemed to me that the best place to put a priest model is back on the shelf, but then again I've never been a sisters player anyway.



Azezel said:


> Stormtroopers seem more likely than Arbites to appear in C:SoB - though they may do the same as last time and let us swap hot-shot lasguns for shotguns (at no extra cost! Who's a lucky boy then?).


I think as long as we see inquisitors in SoB, we will also see stormtroopers.

And you would be a very lucky boy! Now go take that penny you've saved and put it right in your piggy bank! Especially now that shotguns will most likely be upgraded to S4, to keep in line with other codices! WOW!


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## boreas

I'd love cheap arbites with shotguns. A 80pts squad of 10 Geq, 9 with shotguns, one sarge with powermaul(let's say powerweapon at +1 St) and riot shield (5+ inv. save) would be fluffy and polyvalent. 18 St4 shots as BS 3, 9 hits, 4-5 wounds (1-2 dead) on a Meq then charge, the sarge gets 3 attacks, wounds once, the rest of the squad once then dies having done it's job of killing half the Meq squad.

In the same vein, I got absolutely mauled by Orks yesterday (a 1000pts vs 1000pts). I managed to kill about 20 orks and a battlewagon. I had nothing left by mid-turn 4. I real;ly came to this conclusion: Sisters are WAYYYYY overcosted. A squad of 10, including a melta, heavy flamer, VSS w/eviscerator and rhino costs the same as 10 SM with melta, missile-launcher, Sarge w/powerfist and rhino. All 3 players present (we were at a friend's house and one guy was hanging out) have been playing for 7+ years and we all came to the same conclusion: the was nothing I could do. 3x24 orks (w/ powerclaw Nobz, including one in Battlewagon) can just get across the table by turn 2. Turn 3, all I had was in CC.

I'd love it if sisters became a lot cheaper. At 110 pts for 10 sisters, including VSS, grenades, 2 special weapons and stubborn. Add a 35 pts rhino, 25 pts eviscerator and you're at 170pts, a very justified 50-ish point drop on marines... 

Phil


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## Azezel

Much as my inner munchkin drools at that discount - I think it's a bit much.

Let us not forget that, right now, your basic Battle sister is one of the best troop units in the whole game.

So is the basic Ork Boy.

I've never faced Orks, but it's not something I fancy - the fact is, Orks are just ideal for exploiting our army's weakness, and happen to also have one of the top-tier Troop units and are mostly untouched by our strengths (Acts of Faith) so it's not fully a fair comparison.

But I've said that before - what we need perhaps more than anything else, is a more diverse list of Acts of Faith. We need something that's useful against a mob of Boyz or blob of Guardsmen etc.

Not that a little tinkering with points is out of the question. 35 point Rhinos are a no-brainer and free flamers (Upgrade to meltagun or heavy flamer for X points) seems justified.


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## Bindi Baji

I personally can't see arbites being in the SOB codex, 
that said I have heard a few of the designers would love to do arbites again as well as judges


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## boreas

Let's see... For 50 points less(compared to marines) on 10 models, you lose 1 St (-1 point/model), 1 T (1 point/model), 1 Ini (1 point/model), 1 WS (1 point/model). You replace Combat tactics and ASTKNF by stubborn at no cost. So, you come out on top (better, point per point than marines). But if you compare that with Space wolves, you are right on target. 

Sisters have a nice potential for being a "horde" power armor army. At 185pts for a squad of 15 (incl. VSS w/eviscerator+2 flamers), you can get 60 footslogging sisters on the table quite easily and still have room for Hqs, elites, fast and heavies!

On the other side, some things have to go up in price. Exorcists need to shoot a non-random number if missiles to prevent spamming (right now, taking only one is bad because you're at the mercy of a bad roll) and cost more.

Phil


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## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> We need something that's useful against a mob of Boyz or blob of Guardsmen etc.


The answer is something we already have, Blessed Ammunition.
If they would allow more units to use it, say Retributors we would have a great counter vs IG and Orks and in fact anyone else who needs cover for protection.

The Immolator getting Inferno Cannons would also help immensely, like I mentioned a few months ago in the Audio Book Fireborn they are correct about everything they mention except for one single thing, they say the Immolators had Inferno Cannons to burn the heretics which they currently do not but I think it might be a hint at them getting it.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Hellhound is the perfected version of the template that the Immolator is based upon. Ive tried to find the section again but I just cant remember where I read it.

An act of faith the ignores cover would work I guess but seems kinda redundant if we already have Blessed Ammo for our vehicles.


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## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I also remember reading somewhere that the Hellhound is the perfected version of the template that the Immolator is based upon. Ive tried to find the section again but I just cant remember where I read it.


It's in the Immolator fluff section in Codex: Sisters of Battle (2e, obviously).

As I recal, the Sisters had found a forgotten data vault and offered to turn it over to the Mechanicus on condition that they got first dibs on any weapons tech.

The Vault did in fact contain the STC for the Hell hound and variants, but the Mechanicus couldn't quite get the damned thing working so they gaffer-taped some heavy flamers to a Rhino and called it good.

Later, they figured out how to make the Inferno Cannon work - but gave it to the guard.


The option to give infantry Blessed Ammunition is one I've long desired.


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## MadCowCrazy

I just received the Favour of the Warmaster medal 

Giving Blessed Ammo to all our Sisters would not work, would be way too OP then again if the opponent gets into assault its all over for us.

Since the Sisters "theme" is to ignore cover saves with all their flamers etc it would make sense if allot of sisters could ignore cover saves. I guess if you could give Blessed Ammo to regular sisters and had it work like Divine Guidance on wounding rolls of 6s that could work.

Bah, come out with the codex already GW! Its so frustrating not knowing when or what will be in it. I really hope they put 85% of the focus on the Sisters and the rest on priests and ecchlesiarchy.


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## boreas

I think a faith power that could have us do like eldars and shoot our bolters as assault: 3 for a turn and not shoot next turn would be cool. A regular 25 ork mob would be afraid of coming near a 15-sisters squad shooting 45 times (30 hits, 15 wounds, 15 dead if out of cover).

Phil


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## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> I just received the Favour of the Warmaster medal
> 
> Giving Blessed Ammo to all our Sisters would not work, would be way too OP then again if the opponent gets into assault its all over for us.


And very well deserved too, Sir.

I wasn't proposing Blessed Ammo be free - I imagined it as a squad upgrade, like grenades are now - X points per model.


However...

Lemmee outline my Master plan:

Azezel's proposed Sacred rites.

Before battle, each squad is lead in prayer by its Veteran Sister Superior, or another _Faithful_ character. They ask the Emperor to bless and guide them in the coming struggle.

For each _Faithful _squad, the player rolls a modified d6 and compares the result to the table. The squad gains any *one* result equal to or *less* than the modified d6 result.

0: No effect.
1: No effect.
2: No effect.
3: No Effect.
4: +1 Leadership.
5: Squad gains _Stubborn_ USR.
6: Squad's Bolters (Including all variants) ignore cover saves.
7: Squad's Flamers (Including all variants) Ignore Armour saves.
8: Squad's Meltas (Including all variants) Ignore Invulnerable saves.
9: Squad gains _Miraculous Intervention_, but applied to the last model, not wound.

Modifiers-
Squad is lead in prayer by:
Veteran Sister Superior +1
Sororitas Heroine +2
Living Saint +3

Squad contains at least one:
Sacred Relic (wargear) +1

Army contains at least one:
Living Saint +1*
Psyker -2

* The saint herself does not benefit from that +1.

If a squad _ever_ fails a leadership test, for _any reason_ they instantly loose the benefit of the Sacred Rites and may not regain it.


The above is mostly focussed on the three holy weapons of the Sororitas, and lots of praying. The typical result will be around 4-5 - scoring higher than 6 is pretty exceptional and the results are commensurate.


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## Katie Drake

Or just make it that all Faithful units roll on a table similar to the new Dark Eldar Combat Drug one and all receive the same effect.

Seems a lot easier to me.


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## Purge the Heretic

Way too much book-keeping and probability for abuse in the example given, good thought though.

The thing about acts of faith as currently designed, is that they are utility powers, to be used as required. Most of the redesigns I have seen thus far seem to make them more general, to the point that you may as well make them into army wide special rules.

I think the guard style orders system is more likely than most of these, or else it will completely change the purpose of the acts in the first place.


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## coke123

boreas said:


> I think a faith power that could have us do like eldars and shoot our bolters as assault: 3 for a turn and not shoot next turn would be cool. A regular 25 ork mob would be afraid of coming near a 15-sisters squad shooting 45 times (30 hits, 15 wounds, 15 dead if out of cover).
> 
> Phil


Good idea, bladestorm is a fantastic rule. Although you should really base your maths for it on a 10-man (or woman) squad; bladestorm is best used with a transport that can whip them away during the turn where they can't shoot anyway.



Azezel said:


> 9: Squad gains _Miraculous Intervention_, but applied to the last model, not wound.


Miraculous Intervention? Is that the thing St. Celestine has? All in all, this seems like a very complicated system...

And also, I didn't realise SoB had access to psykers, are you anticipating a new psyker unit?

Oh, and congratulations to MadCowCrazy for winning his medal. Well deserved indeed.


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## Azezel

It _is_ complicated - though not as much as it looks. You'll likely already know the modifier for each squad by the time you've finished writing your army list, then just roll at the start of the game. a bit like Penal Legion Desperados or DE Combat Drugs (aparantly).

The above is exactly how things worked on the 2e Codex, and I suppose people managed.

And (currently) all Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors count as psykers, even if you don't buy them any powers - he can also be acompanied by other psychic riff-raff.


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## Tuatara

Spoke to a GW shop manager today. He said he has seen the January release (there is going to be one) and althpough he said he could not say what it was going to be, he said it definitely is NOT GK. He was reluctant to continue the conversation when I pressed for Feb or March, but Jan it appears is out.


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## coke123

Tuatara said:


> Spoke to a GW shop manager today. He said he has seen the January release (there is going to be one) and althpough he said he could not say what it was going to be, he said it definitely is NOT GK. He was reluctant to continue the conversation when I pressed for Feb or March, but Jan it appears is out.


This is pretty much what I've heard from my local manager too. Looks like february is going to be only skaven 2nd wave. Although, by the same token, he joked that GK should be coming out sometime after the fishmen, so I don't know how reliable he is. He told me that jan isn't going to be 40k.


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## mahavira

boreas said:


> I'd love cheap arbites with shotguns. A 80pts squad of 10 Geq, 9 with shotguns, one sarge with powermaul(let's say powerweapon at +1 St) and riot shield (5+ inv. save) would be fluffy and polyvalent. 18 St4 shots as BS 3, 9 hits, 4-5 wounds (1-2 dead) on a Meq then charge, the sarge gets 3 attacks, wounds once, the rest of the squad once then dies having done it's job of killing half the Meq squad.
> 
> In the same vein, I got absolutely mauled by Orks yesterday (a 1000pts vs 1000pts). I managed to kill about 20 orks and a battlewagon. I had nothing left by mid-turn 4. I real;ly came to this conclusion: Sisters are WAYYYYY overcosted. A squad of 10, including a melta, heavy flamer, VSS w/eviscerator and rhino costs the same as 10 SM with melta, missile-launcher, Sarge w/powerfist and rhino. All 3 players present (we were at a friend's house and one guy was hanging out) have been playing for 7+ years and we all came to the same conclusion: the was nothing I could do. 3x24 orks (w/ powerclaw Nobz, including one in Battlewagon) can just get across the table by turn 2. Turn 3, all I had was in CC.
> 
> I'd love it if sisters became a lot cheaper. At 110 pts for 10 sisters, including VSS, grenades, 2 special weapons and stubborn. Add a 35 pts rhino, 25 pts eviscerator and you're at 170pts, a very justified 50-ish point drop on marines...
> 
> Phil


Except for things like Rhinos where we know what the correct cost is, I'd actually rather Battle Sisters got more expensive but also more powerful - about 16 or 17 points, around the Storm Trooper and Space Marine range (but with different strong points). They get their initial training in the same schola progenium as stormtroopers (and comissars), they are if anything better equipped (for a frontal assault role, anyway), they are the cream of natural human warriors.


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## MadCowCrazy

Tuatara said:


> Spoke to a GW shop manager today. He said he has seen the January release (there is going to be one) and althpough he said he could not say what it was going to be, he said it definitely is NOT GK. He was reluctant to continue the conversation when I pressed for Feb or March, but Jan it appears is out.


Guess you missed it but GWs last newsletter announced the Skaven in January. This leaves Feb for a 40k or LotR release. Could be DE second wave, or maybe GKs?


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## coke123

Yeah, but some people had conjectured that since the skaven release was only models there might be room for a new army book/codex as well. But in hindsight it doesn't seem plausible that they'd give the GK the attention or release size they deserve if they were done alongside another release.


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## MadCowCrazy

If thats the case they could do a DE second wave in Jan as well. Then again when was the last time they did 2 different army released in the same month?

The command item sprue does not count


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## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> If thats the case they could do a DE second wave in Jan as well. Then again when was the last time they did 2 different army released in the same month?
> 
> The command item sprue does not count


Maybe it'll be the second wave of Tyranids.

NAAAAAAH!


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## Bindi Baji

a 40k second wave in january is quite plausible


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## coke123

Again, it was pure conjecture, and probably some fervent hoping too. Looking over the last year, Beastmen was done alongside some new LoTR models, Tyranids were released alongside Legion of the Damned (not exactly a 2nd wave, but it's something), again the new O&G models came out alongside LoTR stuff. So we can see that GW is not adverse to releasing two 2nd waves of different game systems alongside each other.

Although on the subject of DE, just looking at this month's white dwarf's new releases section, it looks to me like there aren't many models missing, except haemonculi if they're getting redone?


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## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> Although on the subject of DE, just looking at this month's white dwarf's new releases section, it looks to me like there aren't many models missing, except haemonculi if they're getting redone?


they're all getting redone, every model, eventually


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## hungryugolino

And then they'll forget about them for another decade, their job done.


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## Azezel

Bigred (who he? Not sure) on BoLS suggesting that he's heard that the IG units Stickmonkey spoke of are not going to be in the GK codex.

That would gel with what SM himself said - that his latest rumours were from a different source and perhaps not fully reliable.

Linky-dinky.


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## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> Bigred (who he? Not sure) on BoLS suggesting that he's heard that the IG units Stickmonkey spoke of are not going to be in the GK codex.
> 
> That would gel with what SM himself said - that his latest rumours were from a different source and perhaps not fully reliable.
> 
> Linky-dinky.


If Bigred is right, I imagine that Stickmonkey's source had very old information. Perhaps at some point the codex was going to be Grey Knights + Inquisition + Generic Allies and that's what this source told him. A change this big can't be a recent decision though; this might be why none of SM's other sources ever spoke of these allied IG elements - because those units were already scrapped. Only if Bigred is right though, which is not a given.


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## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> If Bigred is right, I imagine that Stickmonkey's source had very old information. Perhaps at some point the codex was going to be Grey Knights + Inquisition + Generic Allies


The very original idea for the GK codex was GK's, GK's & more GK's with no inquisition or allies at all, 
"if" bigred is correct then SM may have been fed false info (which I believe he admitted was possible at one point)


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## GrizBe

What annoys me more then no info is false info.... Okay, so it provides debate fodder, but in the end it causes far more harm then good. Someone just give me a solid 'Its GKs only' or something please. I can wait a bit longer till march for them, but at least give a proper idea of what we're getting.


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## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> What annoys me more then no info is false info.... Okay, so it provides debate fodder, but in the end it causes far more harm then good. Someone just give me a solid 'Its GKs only' or something please. I can wait a bit longer till march for them, but at least give a proper idea of what we're getting.


Well, some people like being dicks, and spread lies just to cause a stir.
And then sometimes people are told thing by reliable sources, which get changed.


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## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> The very original idea for the GK codex was GK's, GK's & more GK's with no inquisition or allies at all,
> "if" bigred is correct then SM may have been fed false info (which I believe he admitted was possible at one point)


It seems plausible that at one point the designers went "we're removing the Allies rule but the concept is sound so we're replacing it with generic units". SM said that he ran these rumors through his other source(s) and it didn't elicit a negative, hence why he believed they had some truth to them.

Whatever is the case... I'm glad the whole IG copy/paste seems bunk and to hear that there's multiple ways to build viable low model count armies.


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## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> It seems plausible that at one point the designers went "we're removing the Allies rule but the concept is sound so we're replacing it with generic units". SM said that he ran these rumors through his other source(s) and it didn't elicit a negative, hence why he believed they had some truth to them.


Original concepts and final products change numerous times, I believe the land speeder storm started life closer to the stormraven then a land speeder and the concept for Lelith Hesperax had a small handbag


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## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> Original concepts and final products change numerous times


That's what I'm saying, yes 

In other GK news, Bigred seems to be on a roll.



Bigred said:


> Here are a handful of big bombshells we've heard about. We will have to see how they pan out.
> 
> ISTs are said to be out. You can still use the models to represent some of the fighting members of an Inquisitor's retinue (which apparently have all types of options now)
> 
> Assassins are single FOC slots and you can field multiple now (which is interesting as this was forshadowed through the formal Imperial sanctioning of assassin teams in some of the latest Black Library novels).
> 
> GK Termys as troops.
> 
> So it looks like a very Grey Knight book with Inquisitors (and a variety of retinue options), Imperial Operatives, many GK vehicles (the standard SM types), Storm Ravens, etc. This is NOT going to be an "IG-lite" codex.


The removal of IST? That's... a surprise (if true).


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## MadCowCrazy

Multiple assassins? I think he has to mistake the deathcults for the assassins. I mean if you could field 1-3 Vindicare you could remove HQ and SC left and right each turn.


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## coke123

Not to mention that there've been rumours of assassins being incompatible with GK. This couldn't happen without ISTs. Doubt very much they'd remove IST, unless they allow the current daemonhunter codex to still be valid, or do an inquisition codex very soon afterwards.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Multiple assassins? I think he has to mistake the deathcults for the assassins. I mean if you could field 1-3 Vindicare you could remove HQ and SC left and right each turn.


You're assuming that the assassins will have the exact same rules now as they did before.


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## Azezel

I believe we've already seen the putative Assassin statline and it was pretty impressive even without any 'temple upgrades' - having a half dozen of those things rampaging around the table is going to be scary no matter their rules.


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## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I believe we've already seen the putative Assassin statline and it was pretty impressive even without any 'temple upgrades' - having a half dozen of those things rampaging around the table is going to be scary no matter their rules.


it was a fake


----------



## Irbian

Didnt know that, source?


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## Bindi Baji

Irbian said:


> source?


no, I don't keep any in the house


----------



## MaidenManiac

Irbian said:


> Didnt know that, source?


FYI Bindi Baji has dropped quite a number of true things here. Youre welcome to search around, bottom line is that he rarely says something he aint sure on:wink:


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## Irbian

I wasnt asking if he was some kind of kidnapper 

Interesting to know then


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## GrizBe

I think the 'multiple assasin' thing is probably confusing Death Cult as I think it was Stickmonkey who said the size of their squads was to be increased.

As for no IST's... that seems highly unlikely. If simply for the reason its one less kit they could sell.


----------



## Azezel

After going back through the rumours looking for Assassin stuff, and then just casting about reading other stuff I started to speculate about Authors.

Dark Eldar by Phill Kelly
GK by (I believe) Robbin Cruddace?

Now, legend has it that Sisters were started soon after GK, which, by process of elimination, would put them in the hands of Matt Ward? If not him, who?

Incidentally - I am aware of Ward's reputation, but having only skimmed C:SM and found nothing obviously offensive, I offer no comment.


----------



## coke123

I'm not familiar with Robin Cruddace, what else has he/she done? And on Ward, I haven't seen any of his other work but I quite like how the marine codex is. Am I alone here or has he done something really bad to another codex?

And I see one flaw with this process of elimination- it assumes that authors only work on one codex at a time. Considering that there are rumours around of new necrons, GK, SoB, Tau (and some people have been talking BT, but probably wishlisting), and then we have Phil with the DE, we've got like 5-6 codices and only 3 authors (that I know of anyway). So either some people are gonna be disappointed, or we can't really eliminate anyone from the possibility of writing the codex.


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## MadCowCrazy

Robin Cruddace did the IG codex for one, its a really well done codex imo but the Vendetta is just way too cheap. So if he is writing the GK codex there might be allot of options and awesome units.
Robin Cruddace also did the Tyranid codex.

It has been speculated that Jervis Johnson might be writing the Sisters of Battle codex but its all just speculation at this point.

Matthew Ward wrote the Blood Angels codex which is somewhat good, not as good as the Space Wolf one but still a competitive codex none the less.

As for a general Codex rundown

5th Edition
Matthew Ward
-Space Marines 1st October 2008
-Blood Angels 5th April 2010

Robin Cruddace
-Imperial Guard 2nd May 2009
-Tyranids 4th January 2010

Phil Kelly
-Space Wolves 3rd October 2009
-Dark Eldar 6th November 2010

If we go by this GW only has 3 people writing all their codicies which would explain why it takes them forever to update a codex.

4th Edition
Chaos Daemons Alessio Cavatore & Gav Thorpe May 2008
Orks Dunno January 2008
Chaos Space Marines Gav Thorpe & Alessio Cavatore September 2007
Dark Angels Jervis Johnson & Andy Hoare March 2007
Eldar Phil Kelly November 2006
Tau Empire Andy Hoare March 2006
Black Templars Graham McNeill November 2005

3rd Edition
Witch Hunters Andy Hoare & Graham MacNeill April 2004
Daemonhunters Andy Chambers, Phil Kelly & Graham McNeill March 2003
Necrons Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, Graham McNeill, Phil Kelly & Andy Hoare July 2002

From this we can see that they have gone from multiple people writing a codex to just 1 person writing it in 5ed. Kinda funny how so many took part in the Necron codex...

Thing to note, Codex Sisters of Battle came out in 1997, Codex Witch Hunters came out in 2004. If we get Codex Sisters of Battle in 2011 it will have been 7 years between Codex SoB and WH, and 7 years between Codex WH and Codex SoB Resurrected.


----------



## Azezel

Well, I don't imagine that even a modern Codex is truely the work of one person, locked in an atic somewhere in Nottingham - it seems likely that all Codices are almost entirely group efforts with one person co-ordinating as well as doing part of the writing.

F'rex my Codex: Eldar lists eight people and an Ancient and Honourable order of Techpriests(?) as contributing.

As for SOB in 2011, is that still on the cards? We seem to have more solid info on Tau and Necrons than Sisters.

Especially since GK are now supposed to be March (I think? Yes? no?).


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Robin Cruddace did the IG codex for one, its a really well done codex imo but the Vendetta is just way too cheap. So if he is writing the GK codex there might be allot of options and awesome units.
> Robin Cruddace also did the Tyranid codex.


This makes me happy!



MadCowCrazy said:


> It has been speculated that Jervis Johnson might be writing the Sisters of Battle codex but its all just speculation at this point.


Yeah, a bit speculative for my tastes. When was the last time JJ wrote a codex? before I started playing, for sure.



Azezel said:


> Well, I don't imagine that even a modern Codex is truely the work of one person, locked in an atic somewhere in Nottingham - it seems likely that all Codices are almost entirely group efforts with one person co-ordinating as well as doing part of the writing.
> 
> As for SOB in 2011, is that still on the cards? We seem to have more solid info on Tau and Necrons than Sisters.
> 
> Especially since GK are now supposed to be March (I think? Yes? no?).


I wasn't saying that dexes are done by one person, but was suggesting that one person can be involved in several codicies, i.e. Phil Kelly's involvement with DE does not necessarily preclude him from working on GK.

I've got my money on a february-march GK release, and I agree that Necrons and Tau are more likely to be in 2011 than SoB. Although it's still early days for those guys too.


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Yeah, a bit speculative for my tastes. When was the last time JJ wrote a codex? before I started playing, for sure.


Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition), I believe.


----------



## coke123

Oh, ok, so not before I started playing then. It's still been a while for him though.


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Oh, ok, so not before I started playing then. It's still been a while for him though.


Considering how ill-received that book was, I imagine it'll be his last for quite some time.


----------



## exsulis

coke123 said:


> Oh, ok, so not before I started playing then. It's still been a while for him though.


It could be 20 years and I'd say not long enough.


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## coke123

Hahaha the bitterness is strong in this one! Although it's well deserved from what I hear.


----------



## Dagmire

Well i know its to be taken with a pinch of salt but a GW staffer offered info when i mentioned i played Inqusition.

I told me he had seen the new IST models in plastic, this could be the IG ST models for a second wave.... Then again i am not sure in what phase he even saw the models.
Keep your chins up warriors of the Inqusition it cant be long now....................... can it??


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## GrizBe

For SoB's being in 2011... if you go by the rumours, they were started within 6 months of GK's being started... so if GK's are Feb/March, you could logically expect SoB's by Aug/Sep, if their start date was true.


----------



## Khorothis

Guys, relax, if the Dark Eldar got a codex anyone can.  We know that there are the GKs, the Sisters, the Tau and the Necron for next year, so by Christmas these for factions' players can be happy (or sad/infuriated) that they got their new codex. The order of their release is irrelevant as long as its next year. Don't be selfish, be glad that the sad half of 40K is getting a boost so that the game can be more balanced and colourful.


----------



## coke123

Well said. Just adding extra characters to make the minimum length.


----------



## oblivion8

can you imagine?

A world where tau, necrons, grey knights, dark eldar, and SoB are more competitive then the leading brand marines?

Somehow I think that a marine dex will bump one of the 4 into 2012, but I am trying to be optimistic... :laugh:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From GWs previous release schedule it seems to be 3 codicies (GW writes codexes, its in the latest WD) per year. There are only 3 3rd ed dexes (or would that be dicies) left, SoB, GK and Necrons.

This year we had Jan, April and November as codex releases. If GW does not throw in another useless addon (Battle Missions) then I could see them do 4 dexes in a year.
I guess it could be GK Feb/March, Necrons May/June, Sisters August/September and Tau October/November.

Does seem a bit unlikely but I can dream cant I


----------



## Khorothis

oblivion8 said:


> can you imagine?
> 
> A world where tau, necrons, grey knights, dark eldar, and SoB are more competitive then the leading brand marines?
> 
> Somehow I think that a marine dex will bump one of the 4 into 2012, but I am trying to be optimistic... :laugh:


I just wish that the girls and at least one xeno codex will be more powerful than the marines. *sniff*


----------



## coke123

oblivion8 said:


> can you imagine?
> 
> A world where tau, necrons, grey knights, dark eldar, and SoB are more competitive then the leading brand marines?
> 
> Somehow I think that a marine dex will bump one of the 4 into 2012, but I am trying to be optimistic... :laugh:


What's this, xenos with the upper hand? *projectile vomits uncontrollably*
Yeah, you're probably right about the marine dex. What else is there apart from BT? Dark Angels? It's a bit soon, but it'd be nice to not have to hear dark angel players whinge anymore.



MadCowCrazy said:


> From GWs previous release schedule it seems to be 3 codicies (GW writes codexes, its in the latest WD) per year. There are only 3 3rd ed dexes (or would that be dicies) left, SoB, GK and Necrons.
> 
> This year we had Jan, April and November as codex releases. If GW does not throw in another useless addon (Battle Missions) then I could see them do 4 dexes in a year.
> I guess it could be GK Feb/March, Necrons May/June, Sisters August/September and Tau October/November.
> 
> Does seem a bit unlikely but I can dream cant I


I was thinking that considering the complete fantasy-gasm 2010 has been they might show a bit more love to 40k this year. And I am so very tired of new expansions. I don't have the time or money to invest in apocalypse, can't see the point in cities of death when I can play terrain heavy 40k and don't particularly want to buy bastions purely for planetstrike. Can't say I have a problem with battle missions though (apart from having to invest in the book).

4 new dexes, 4 new army books, leaves time for 3 2nd waves, since december doesn't usually see new releases) seems reasonable, and smaller 2nd waves can be doubled up with a new codex from the opposite game system.


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> What else is there apart from BT? Dark Angels? It's a bit soon, but it'd be nice to not have to hear dark angel players whinge anymore.


Blood Ravens, obviously.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Blood Ravens, obviously.


there may well be another "new-ish" marine codex in the next 2 years, 
it's not blood ravens though


----------



## Khorothis

Bindi Baji said:


> there may well be another "new-ish" marine codex in the next 2 years,
> it's not blood ravens though


It would have been fun to have Captain Boreale as a special character... :laugh:

Considering how the SM codex has no Iron Hands special characters, they might be a good idea, especially since all their potential models can cost a fortune (lotsa vehicles, techmarines, dreadnoughts, terminators and the like).

Or Adeptus Mechanicus (gasp!). In that case I'm so fucking gonna buy a battleboxful of them... Swarms of shooty skitarii, followed by giant guns on tracks, supervised by Enginseers and led by a Magos... *nerdgasm*


----------



## DonFer

No rumours for a long time.... I really need something...anything...


----------



## Khorothis

DonFer said:


> No rumours for a long time.... I really need something...anything...


Watching anime tends to help. Stuff like Dokuro-chan and High School of the Dead, to name a few. The sheer amount of boobs and WTF moments make you forget of all of life's troubles.


----------



## Winterous

Khorothis said:


> Watching anime tends to help. Stuff like Dokuro-chan and High School of the Dead, to name a few. The sheer amount of boobs and WTF moments make you forget of all of life's troubles.


Except the niggling urge to lose weight.


----------



## Khorothis

Winterous said:


> Except the niggling urge to lose weight.


I got that covered, I'm unable to get any meat on my bones for long. :laugh: But I get what you're saying, nonetheless.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Blood Ravens, obviously.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!! CAPS LOCK FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO RED ULTRAMARINES!!!!!!!



Khorothis said:


> Watching anime tends to help. Stuff like Dokuro-chan and High School of the Dead, to name a few. The sheer amount of boobs and WTF moments make you forget of all of life's troubles.


Since I got back from Japan earlier this year, I've been watching One Piece from the beginning. Holy fuck that series is awesome. And you're right, it does help.


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!! CAPS LOCK FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO RED ULTRAMARINES!!!!!!!


is it the colour?, would you prefer white?


----------



## GrizBe

Bindi Baji said:


> there may well be another "new-ish" marine codex in the next 2 years,
> it's not blood ravens though



Personally... I'm bored of variant space marine codexes... Okay, yes its all nice to be able to play the different chapters and have your own weapons and vehicles and characters etc... but after a while, your pretty much just cutting a pasting the fluff into the vanilla codex unless your doing something drastically different to the norm.... Space Wolves being an example, or Templars.


----------



## Azezel

Whilst nobody is more emphatic than I in his... opinions on the dominance of Space Marines, this probably isn't the place to have that discussion.

For good or ill I think we must accept as brute fact the many colours of Space Marine codex.

I withdraw my sarcastic 'Blood Ravens' jibe and apologise for opening that can of worms.


----------



## LordWaffles

Katie Drake said:


> Considering how ill-received that book was, I imagine it'll be his last for quite some time.


One can only hope.

Until he and Gav Thorpe combine their useless non-talents to write next editions chaos in a brilliant move to alienate the entire community.


----------



## coke123

Bindi Baji said:


> is it the colour?, would you prefer white?


 you know what I mean



GrizBe said:


> Personally... I'm bored of variant space marine codexes... Okay, yes its all nice to be able to play the different chapters and have your own weapons and vehicles and characters etc... but after a while, your pretty much just cutting a pasting the fluff into the vanilla codex unless your doing something drastically different to the norm.... Space Wolves being an example, or Templars.


If you wanna play blood ravens or invent your own chapter called the dancing bears that's fine, that's why Codex: Space Marines isn't entitled Codex:Ultramarines- It encompasses all marine chapters that strictly follow astartes, including blood ravens. This is also why I don't mind having BA, BT or wolves- Codex:Space Marines doesn't do them justice. Otherwise we don't really need yet another marine chapter.


----------



## GrizBe

Thats kinda my point. Its why we don't have a 'Codex Imperial Fists', or Salamanders, or White Scars... IF's are pretty much just a bunch of serious marines, Salamanders have more fire and melta weapons and Scars more bikes... You really don't need more variant SM codices.


----------



## Mathai

I think it would be a good move for GW to maybe, instead of writing up codexes for each sapce marine faction, maybe come up with a few rules to give any one chapter some uniqueness and just release the stuff online as free content. I.e rules that if you play a salamanders army, you can obtain more flame based weapons that is normally allowed for your tac marines or an armament layout where you can put a multimelta on each arm of their dreadnoughts. Or perhaps lowering melta equipment costs while raising the cost of plasma equipment.

You would still need to buy a codex to be able to plug in those additions to a full army, but by having options to differentiate from the pure codex there would be interest generated by more people. I know I ~MIGHT~ be tempted to try a space marine army if I knew it could be genuinely different than most others.


----------



## Baron Spikey

LordWaffles said:


> One can only hope.
> 
> Until he and Gav Thorpe combine their useless non-talents to write next editions chaos in a brilliant move to alienate the entire community.


That might be somewhat difficult considering Gav doesn't work for GW, he writes books for BL but he's a free lance author now.


----------



## MaidenManiac

LordWaffles said:


> One can only hope.
> 
> Until he and Gav Thorpe combine their useless non-talents to write next editions chaos in a brilliant move to alienate the entire community.





Baron Spikey said:


> That might be somewhat difficult considering Gav doesn't work for GW, he writes books for BL but he's a free lance author now.



As the Baron says its highly unlikely, sadly he is still around the company in one way (BL) so dont tempt the Gods. We dont want them to plant seeds in folks heads do we:wink:

On a more serious note: if that really happened Im almost sure I would be heading for jail after a visit in England...


----------



## DonFer

Just found this in a Spanish forum somewhere around the web. 

What do I think? It's fake. What does the forum says? It's coming to a store near you. 

Since there haven't been any rumours around, I just thought a little spice wouldn't hurt anyone... so enjoy.


----------



## tu_shan82

I reckon it's fake, but one can hope.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Its an awesome picture though, anyone know where its from?


----------



## DonFer

I couldn't find a match, it should be interesting to determine where does the pic come from.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd assume it was fake, given the topless female servator on the front cover there...

But who knows, given that there have been rumours of an =I= suppliment type codex purely for inquisitors?

I'd also like to know where the pic comes from.

Edit: Can't confirm it myself, but apparently its page 306 of the Dark Heresy rulebook.


----------



## boreas

P. 306 Dark Heresy Rulebook... No credit to me, some guy on Warseer... I'd positively be drooling if we ever had that, though, as this is exactly why I got into 40k! It's all in sepia in the DH rulebook, though. I wonder where the colored version is from?

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Well spotted, guy on Warseer.

As for the colouring - there is someone who colours 40k pictures for fun - he calls himself Majestic Chi. He coloured this image from C:WH










I like that one because he put her in my army's colours.


----------



## Catpain Rich

It could be real because all of the people are charging to the right side of the page (like IG, orks, tau, BA, SM to an extent, BT)


----------



## fynn

it might even be a redo of the fan made dex that appeared around june this year, but without seeing whats in it, i cant be sure.

found it here
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31467113/Warhammer-40-000-Codex-Inquisition


----------



## Orochi

Personally, I find both the WH codex and DH codex boring and horrendous reads. I find any Pious literature very dogmatic.

As for the races themselves, they should be compiled into 1 Codex and made as either a force unto itself (you chose whether to Witch hunt or Daemon hunt, or a mixture) 
OR
scrap the Codex all together and put them in a FAQ for Codex MAARRRREEENS (of all kinds) and Codex limp guard. 
This would be a way to keep enthusiasts happy, but scrap all that crap that festers on GW selves both in store and warehoused.

Neither race sells well. Neither race will sell well.

I'm sorry, but that's the hard fact. Converters/fluff players dreamboat maybe, but realistically, neither army has much of a fanbase.
Proof being the 200 pages of this thread of very little substance. 

There's my point of view, now flame me you intolerant children!


----------



## Azezel

Orochi said:


> There's my point of view, now flame me you intolerant children!


Nah, can't be arsed.

Peace.


----------



## Dagmire

Well that is your point of view. Your wrong of course but your entitled to be as wrong as you like.


----------



## Orochi

One's opinion can never be wrong.

I just feel it's a waste of time.

But as I hope we all agree, opinions are nothing but an opinion. And I do appreciate that there are some small number of fans for both races.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Awesome.

Marines are too popular and the Inquisition isn't popular enough...is there anything other race you'd like to complain about?

It looks like the same artist who did the picture I use in my signature.
If it is the same guy here's some more stuff from him:


----------



## Azezel

Well, ignoring your earlier post, I have to take issue with the following:



Orochi said:


> One's opinion can never be wrong.





Orochi said:


> But as I hope we all agree, opinions are nothing but an opinion.


Any opinion which has or contains a possible positive or negative truth-value statement can in fact be objectively right or wrong.

For example:

'As for the races themselves, they should be compiled into 1 Codex and made as either a force unto itself (you chose whether to Witch hunt or Daemon hunt, or a mixture)' - this is an opinion lacking a truth-value statement (under the strict terms you provided) and therefore lacking an objectively right or wrong value.

'Neither race will sell well' - this is an opinion. It is also a statement with a truth-value and as such may be right or wrong.

'Well that's just my/your opinion' may be the most damaging phrase ever uttered in the long history of debate.


----------



## GrizBe

Orochi said:


> Neither race sells well. Neither race will sell well.


So by that logic, your saying Dark Eldar are going to bomb? Both DH and WH outsold, and have far more players and fan sites then DE ever did...


----------



## DonFer

I love the the Assault squad pic, it's awesome more so in color. Thanks for the pics Baron! k:


----------



## Karnox

DonFer said:


> Just found this in a Spanish forum somewhere around the web


Maybe its the 40k "Spanish Inquisition" codex?
It could happen, I mean no one really expects the spanish inquisition


----------



## DonFer

Karnox said:


> Maybe its the 40k "Spanish Inquisition" codex?
> It could happen, I mean no one really expects the spanish inquisition


Hahahaha, excatly what I thought when i saw that....:laugh:


----------



## boreas

Warseer's GK thread has been closed... again! Heresy Online is such a nice place to hang around! 

Phil


----------



## Karnox

I also noticed, the inquisitor in that picture has a lightsaber XD


----------



## Dagmire

DonFer said:


>


This cover shows the reason i love the Inqusition. I think might buy dark heresy just for the fluff and art


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dagmire said:


> This cover shows the reason i love the Inqusition. I think might buy dark heresy just for the fluff and art


Too bad pretty much none of the pics are painted then 

Im sure people will get sick and tired of that T-tauri guy and his hardon for closing threads. People want to talk about what they enjoy but they are not allowed to do that over at Warseer. Kinda sucks some of the better rumours people prefer to post there.


----------



## GrizBe

boreas said:


> Warseer's GK thread has been closed... again! Heresy Online is such a nice place to hang around!
> 
> Phil


I've noticed its always that same mod who gives such moronic reasons for doing it.... somones defiantely on a power trip.


----------



## Azezel

Dark Heresy (and Rogue Trader for that matter) have a number of legitimate flaws are roleplaying games, but they are very nice books with a lot of good art and fluff.

I'm excited about the forthcoming Blood of Martyrs supliment focusing on the Ecclesiarchy.


----------



## Dynamike

Long live Heresy Online! 

Love the place, love the people and love how we can share our common passion here.

It's still nice the inquisition picture even if it's fake. It ''feels'' like the same art style GW uses in their covers and pictures. Wonder how GK cover will look... What about SoB? Wonder if we are going to see a flame sniper on it


----------



## coke123

Orochi said:


> One's opinion can never be wrong.


I beg to differ. It was the Nazi's opinion that they were just in persuing the holocaust. I'd say they were wrong.



Karnox said:


> Maybe its the 40k "Spanish Inquisition" codex?
> It could happen, I mean no one really expects the spanish inquisition


:headbutt: ... I guess it had to be done.



DonFer said:


> Just found this in a Spanish forum somewhere around the web.
> 
> What do I think? It's fake. What does the forum says? It's coming to a store near you.
> 
> Since there haven't been any rumours around, I just thought a little spice wouldn't hurt anyone... so enjoy.


Nice find, and a very cool picture. But one thing that jumps at me as fake is that the word 'codex' in the bottom left hand corner is in a MUCH thicker font than any modern codex. A nice attempt at a fake, but still fake nonetheless. 

EDIT: Also, modern codices have a 'shadow' behind the font of the main title- this title doesn't.

Although it's probably not fair to call it 'fake', which to me implies some form of douchery in trying to mess with the community. I'd say it's a fandex that people are taking too seriously, just like that combined inquisition codex everyone crapped themselves over a few months ago.


----------



## Orochi

Opinion and action are two different things.

I don't like the WH or the DH, fluff or otherwise. Get over yourselves?

I'm happy to play against them, bla bla, but I don't like them. So in my opinion, let them go. It won't happen, I know that, but that doesn't change my opinion.

Although it's slightly contradictary, I do think that cover art is extremely good.


----------



## Azezel

Coke123 and I both accept your right (not to mention privilage) to hold and express any opinion you chose.

However, neither Coke123 nor I accept your statement that an opinion cannot be right or wrong. We have both proven that that is not the case, Coke by example and I by classical (if informal) logic.

Now, to digress a little:

As stated above, I respect your right to hold and express any opinion (a man who does not believe in free speech for those who disagree with him does not believe in free speech at all) - however, I wonder why you'd see a two-hundred page thread for people who want new =][= codices and feel the need to stick your oar in?

It seems at best like rather a waste of your time, at worst, mere trolling.


----------



## coke123

Orochi said:


> Opinion and action are two different things.
> 
> I don't like the WH or the DH, fluff or otherwise. Get over yourselves?
> 
> I'm happy to play against them, bla bla, but I don't like them. So in my opinion, let them go. It won't happen, I know that, but that doesn't change my opinion.
> 
> Although it's slightly contradictary, I do think that cover art is extremely good.


They acted on opinion. Opinion begets action. They are different things, but are strongly related.

So just because you don't like the inquisition, that means we should get rid of them? I happen to have a particular distaste for orks, but I still recognise that we shouldn't get rid of them, lots of other people really like them. GK are the shiz, we just shouldn't let them go. You should get over yourself.



Azezel said:


> Coke123 and I both accept your right (not to mention privilage) to hold and express any opinion you chose.
> 
> However, neither Coke123 nor I accept your statement that an opinion cannot be right or wrong. We have both proven that that is not the case, Coke by example and I by classical (if informal) logic.
> 
> Now, to digress a little:
> 
> As stated above, I respect your right to hold and express any opinion (a man who does not believe in free speech for those who disagree with him does not believe in free speech at all) - however, I wonder why you'd see a two-hundred page thread for people who want new =][= codices and feel the need to stick your oar in?
> 
> It seems at best like rather a waste of your time, at worst, mere trolling.


Yeah. Again using my dislike for orks as an example, you don't see me going on to ork related threads and just going 'Orks are ****, let them go', I just avoid those threads, maybe reading their tactica for ways to beat them. Why do you feel the need to come along with this crap?


----------



## Irbian

Wait, orks arent ****? 

Im not sure if this have something more to chew

On topic: Next newsletter (and so, confirmation for feb release)... when can we expect it?


----------



## coke123

Those flash gitz are a bit more than just flash, if you catch my drift :wink:

The newsletter doesn't really have set release times; GW just seems to enjoy filling my inbox whenever they feel like it. I can't imagine they'll tell us until a bit after the dark eldar wave 1.5, so I'd guess very late november-early december at the earliest? or possibly on the other side of christmas, to stop people from being frugal in the lead up to the holidays.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I agree, I dont think we will get much in the next newsletter, it will just be stock full of whatever chrismas deals they have going. In the latest one they had the christmas list competition going again this year. Isnt it usually at the end of the week they come out with a newsletter though? I think I have received most of them on fridays.
We might see one this week with the release of the DE and how to order them and everything else for christmas, there should also be one around the 20th with the 1.5 release wave. After this we might get to know whats to come in Feb. So late Nov, early Dec I would expect them to reveal the Feb stuff or just after christmas so people dont save their money and impulse buy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh look, I was right. Newsletter today with the DE release 
I think we can expect the next one on the 20th with the 1.5 DE release wave


----------



## Irbian

damn you and your correct asumptions


----------



## coke123

I get newsletters throughout the week. I'll be 'studying' and then I'll just have another email. It's a shame they don't seem to email me info about things I actually give a damn about though.


----------



## boreas

> He is still trying to work out how best to tackle plastic Sisters of Battle but they are still being problematic.


From Jes Goodwin's DE interview... Let' recapitulate: Jes Goodwin+Plastic SOB>Angelina Jolie+melted chocolate...

Phil


----------



## Tuatara

boreas said:


> Jes Goodwin+Plastic SOB>Angelina Jolie+melted chocolate...
> 
> Phil


Yeah, but not by a lot 

Looking at the new DE codex fills me with joy. The reason being that if they put as much care and attention into the DH codex, it'll be a ripper.


----------



## Azezel

Given the lead-time for producing a plastic kit, the fact that the praisable Mr. Goodwin is still trying to work out how to sculpt 'em it'd seem like new Sisters are now 2012 at best.

Not that it's surprising - short of a six-piece mold I cannot imagine how you could make a Plastic sister that looks right next to the current metal range. The robes I suspect, are the problem.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> it'd seem like new Sisters are now 2012 at best.


they were never due before then afaik, the recent updating of elderly codexes is a time consuming thing


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Awwww, so no Sisters in 2011? Thats gonna suck...


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Given the lead-time for producing a plastic kit, the fact that the praisable Mr. Goodwin is still trying to work out how to sculpt 'em it'd seem like new Sisters are now 2012 at best.
> 
> Not that it's surprising - short of a six-piece mold I cannot imagine how you could make a Plastic sister that looks right next to the current metal range. The robes I suspect, are the problem.


Why would robes be a problem? Dark Angels have them so it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.


----------



## mahavira

Bindi Baji said:


> they were never due before then afaik, the recent updating of elderly codexes is a time consuming thing


Then why pull all boxed sets at the same time as GK, who are supposedly getting released a full year ahead of them? And compare to DE where the entire line was available until the second before preorder on the new stuff was available. I actually think there should be a Standard Bearer column where Jervis explains how some of these decisions get made, because from the outside it looks rather like they spin a wheel and throw darts at it.


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> Then why pull all boxed sets at the same time as GK, who are supposedly getting released a full year ahead of them?


because I was in a bad mood at the time as I ran out of slaves to whip


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> they were never due before then afaik, the recent updating of elderly codexes is a time consuming thing


And Lo, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There had gbeenhints an speculation the Sisters were coming late next year - I believe both SM and Harry said they thought that.



mahavira said:


> Why would robes be a problem? Dark Angels have them so it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.


Dark Angels have their dresses molded to their legs, and pretty generally surrounding their legs, the upper parts are molded to the torso, but do not cover the arms. That's fairly easy to do. Easier in fact than actual legs would be.

Battle sisters mostly do not have robes that interact with the legs. Worse still are their sleeves, which also cannot really be molded to the arms. Just trying to imagine how to crate a posable plastic Battle Sister with sleeves that look natural - an which can be made in plastic by injection molding is bending my head.

If anyone can do it, Goodwin can, but it's not surprising that he's finding it hard.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I believe both SM and Harry said they thought that.


I would be somewhat surprised if Harry had actually said 2011 for SOB


----------



## Azezel

I may well be misremembering (It's happened before) what Harry said (or did not say).

Stickmonkey posted this about 3 months ago:



Stickmonkey said:


> 2010
> Nov/Q4 - DE
> 2011
> Jan/Q1 - GK (may be as late as March)
> Late spring/Q2 - Necrons
> Early Fall/Q3 - Witch hunters or Black Templar
> Late Fall/Q4 - Tau
> 2012
> Early Spring/Q1 - Black Templar or Witch hunters
> Late Spring/Summer/Q2 - 40k 6E
> Early Fall/Q3 - 40k Box Set Eldar Vs ??? (plastic aspect warriors?)
> Late Fall/Q4 - Eldar
> 2013
> Early Spring/Q1 - Dark Angels
> Late Spring/Q2 - Chaos SM
> Fall/Q3+ - vanilla SM


So yeah, hardly iron-clad, but at one point it seemed reasonable for us to hope for Sisters next year.


----------



## Winterous

Sixth ed in 2012? No way.
Between 4th and 5th was 4 years, but 5th ed is perfectly fine, far less complicated and retarded than 4th.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I may well be misremembering (It's happened before)


indeed, I do it all the time Janet


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is something I found over at BOLS

Originally Posted by StraightSilver View Post
Not sure if this is the best place to post but the Dark Eldar rumours thread was closed and this seemed the next best place.

I had a chance to have a chat with Jes Goodwin today and got some more info regarding DE release schedule.

He said that they will have 90% of the Dark Eldar models in the Codex released by June next year, so no more than 7 months.

Basically people have waited so long for this release and as it looks set to be so popular he wanted to get everything out quickly.

There are 4 new plastic kits coming next year, he wouldn't say exactly what they were but that the Venom is definitely coming soon and they have models for both flyers listed in the Dex on ready to go (but he wouldn't confirm if these were part of the 90%).

He said that the models which would take longer were the special characters, so these may form the missing 10% which means we have a lot of new models coming soon.

He is still working on a few bits, something he wants to do is have Haemonculi passengers/hangers on the Raider but isn't sure how best to do that.

The Wych passengers/hangers on for the Raider will be included in the plastic Venom kit, but there isn't another suitabe release to make up Haemonculi equivalents.

He also said that now that rapid prototyping and CAD technology has progressed the design team can use 2 ups instead of 3 ups which means that making larger apocolypse style kits (Stompa and Baneblade) in plastic is now more possible.

This means that they are currently working on one of these types of kits as the sales for the Stompa etc were very good, but wouldn't say whether they had decided on what this would be, although I got the impression he wanted it to be Eldar.

Talking of Eldar he said that producing the Dark Eldar had fired up his enthusiasm for a new Craftworld Eldar Codex and models, and he has lots of ideas for this. However this hasn't even started yet so a new Eldar Codex is a long way off.

He is still trying to work out how best to tackle plastic Sisters of Battle but they are still being problematic.

He also mentioned that he would love to produce an Ad Mech Codex but said it would be very unlikely for GW to produce it as there isn't room in the range for them at the moment. However he said it was possible that Forge World would do them at some point, and his take on the concept was "Vampire Counts in space". In other words Necromancers and zombies, which sounds cool.

Anyway, that's pretty much it, also wanted to say that Jes was a lovely guy, very approachable and it was nice to see how passionate he was about everything he does.

Cheers.


----------



## GrizBe

Darn.. ninja'ed... just spotted that myself. lol. The Ad Mech army sounds interesting if they'd ever do that.


----------



## Azezel

ArmouredWing of the Bolter & Chainsword claims to have had informal chats with Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin. He relates the details thus:



ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening. So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet. He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.


Nothing we didn't know before, but it appears to back up what StraightSilver said.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just posted the stuff in the rumours section.

Oh yeah, Bindi Baji, due to the limit in post size and me now reaching all my own alloted posts Im afraid Gluttony will have to push her way into your first post in the thread once the current rumours post if filled. This wont happen for a long time but Im sure it will happen when the new GK stuff starts to get published. Im sure u dont mind but I figured Id tell you now anyways. Im expecting to maybe need to eat your post around Jan or Feb.


----------



## Oz Tra Ya

Fake codex covers are so passé...

The art from this particular fake comes from one of the Dark Heresy RPG books. You can see it on the Fantasy Flight Games website, click on the second picture in the second row...

http://app.fantasyflightgames.com/dark-heresy/art-dh.shtml



A colored version of the picture appears on DeviantArt, by someone called majesticchicken...

http://majesticchicken.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2um5io



This may interest Battle Sister fans, I found a nice big (716x900 pixels) image of the Blood of Martyrs cover. Once the page loads don't click on the image, instead right-click and open it in a new tab to see it full size.

http://www.milsims.com.au/node/117007


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Pure Conjecture:

This new info makes a Sisters WD dex to tide us over more feasible, especially if they want to remove allies from the game quickly.

As far as models are concerned, maybe they are doing a repack to match the WD codex after all, it seems rather sketchy that we don't even have metal box sets atm.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just posted the stuff in the rumours section.
> 
> Oh yeah, Bindi Baji, due to the limit in post size and me now reaching all my own alloted posts Im afraid Gluttony will have to push her way into your first post in the thread once the current rumours post if filled.


that's okay m8, after having just read through the "Are the Templars being forgotten?" thread i'm about to give up 40k and take up knitting :biggrin:


----------



## mahavira

Bindi Baji said:


> because I was in a bad mood at the time as I ran out of slaves to whip


It depresses me that this is probably the most reasonable explanation we will ever get on this point.



Azezel said:


> Dark Angels have their dresses molded to their legs, and pretty generally surrounding their legs, the upper parts are molded to the torso, but do not cover the arms. That's fairly easy to do. Easier in fact than actual legs would be.
> 
> Battle sisters mostly do not have robes that interact with the legs. Worse still are their sleeves, which also cannot really be molded to the arms. Just trying to imagine how to crate a posable plastic Battle Sister with sleeves that look natural - an which can be made in plastic by injection molding is bending my head.
> 
> If anyone can do it, Goodwin can, but it's not surprising that he's finding it hard.


The lower portion of the robes doesn't seem very different from the loincloth type things the new daemon prince and dark eldar have, but I suppose the sleeves could be a pain, particularly from the posing perspective.



Purge the Heretic said:


> Pure Conjecture:
> 
> This new info makes a Sisters WD dex to tide us over more feasible, especially if they want to remove allies from the game quickly.
> 
> As far as models are concerned, maybe they are doing a repack to match the WD codex after all, it seems rather sketchy that we don't even have metal box sets atm.


If they think there'll be even an uptick of sales for repackaged metal minis, they're crazier than they look. Bindibaji mentioned a repackage a few months back but nothing further was said on the subject. I'm not even sure how you would repackage: the only change you could realistically make to the seraphim pack is to change the sister superior, hardly worth the effort, the only variation within repentia squads is numbers, ditto acro flagellants. It's far from clear what you could do to the basic squad box which doesn't replicate the existing problem (beyond ditching the storm bolter), as for everyone who wants a heavy flamer and a meltagun, there is going to be another who wants two meltaguns or a heavy flamer and a flamer, or create a new problem in the form of too many special weapons for a regular squad. Cutting the box size down to 5 and selling them as either regular sisters, or command and special/heavy weapons could conceivably work, though having to buy two+ boxes to get even a single squad is not going to be a crowd pleaser either.


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> that's okay m8, after having just read through the "Are the Templars being forgotten?" thread i'm about to give up 40k and take up knitting :biggrin:


That'd be a shame.

Believe it or not we do appreciate your continued rumourmongering and tolerance of our histrionics.

Also - as a(very) occasional knitter and friend of knitters - phew... You would not believe the splenetics that can occur in _that_ community.



mahavira said:


> The lower portion of the robes doesn't seem very different from the loincloth type things the new daemon prince and dark eldar have, but I suppose the sleeves could be a pain, particularly from the posing perspective.
> 
> If they think there'll be even an uptick of sales for repackaged metal minis, they're crazier than they look. Bindibaji mentioned a repackage a few months back but nothing further was said on the subject. I'm not even sure how you would repackage: the only change you could realistically make to the seraphim pack is to change the sister superior, hardly worth the effort, the only variation within repentia squads is numbers, ditto acro flagellants. It's far from clear what you could do to the basic squad box which doesn't replicate the existing problem (beyond ditching the storm bolter), as for everyone who wants a heavy flamer and a meltagun, there is going to be another who wants two meltaguns or a heavy flamer and a flamer, or create a new problem in the form of too many special weapons for a regular squad. Cutting the box size down to 5 and selling them as either regular sisters, or command and special/heavy weapons could conceivably work, though having to buy two+ boxes to get even a single squad is not going to be a crowd pleaser either.



That plastic Deamon Pince is fantastic (and I normally don't have the time of day for Chaos Space Marines) - however - I believe he's quite big and the loincloth looks to be a separate bit that's just glued to his crotch. It strikes me as tricky to do the same for a much smaller figure and not have it _look_ like a pit of plastic glued to her crotch.

The sleeves, however, seem to me the largest problem.


If Sisters truely are 2012 - that'd mean they'd been blisters-only for _two years_.

With that in mind, a re-package does seem very much more likely.

Personally, I'd do:

Superior w/Bolter+Sword, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, 6 Sisters, Imagifier.

This is nice for GW since a lot of people will have to buy a blister to replace that Imagifier - and nice for us since it is actually a pretty good squad.


I'd probably keep the other boxes as they were.

I don't know why they were eliminated, but I know there is a reason, and that it's not just to piss us off.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> That'd be a shame.
> 
> Believe it or not we do appreciate your continued rumourmongering and tolerance of our histrionics.
> 
> Also - as a(very) occasional knitter and friend of knitters - phew... You would not believe the splenetics that can occur in _that_ community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That plastic Deamon Pince is fantastic (and I normally don't have the time of day for Chaos Space Marines) - however - I believe he's quite big and the loincloth looks to be a separate bit that's just glued to his crotch. It strikes me as tricky to do the same for a much smaller figure and not have it _look_ like a pit of plastic glued to her crotch.
> 
> The sleeves, however, seem to me the largest problem.
> 
> 
> If Sisters truely are 2012 - that'd mean they'd been blisters-only for _two years_.
> 
> With that in mind, a re-package does seem very much more likely.
> 
> Personally, I'd do:
> 
> Superior w/Bolter+Sword, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, 6 Sisters, Imagifier.
> 
> This is nice for GW since a lot of people will have to buy a blister to replace that Imagifier - and nice for us since it is actually a pretty good squad.
> 
> 
> I'd probably keep the other boxes as they were.
> 
> I don't know why they were eliminated, but I know there is a reason, and that it's not just to piss us off.


The loincloth on the DP is a separate piece, but Kabalite warriors have somethign similar directly attached to the legs which are pre-posed.


----------



## Azezel

Good point, well made.

I hadn't noticed those. Just goes to show, it can be done. I don't doubt that Mr. Goodwin can get the sleeves right too. I'm just saying it's not easy, but in time he will give us something very special.

The thought of what he will eventually give us makes me happy in my gentlemans' area.


----------



## Bindi Baji

mahavira said:


> It depresses me that this is probably the most reasonable explanation we will ever get on this point.


despite my continued use of sarcasm aimed at, well almost everybody I do actually agree with this point, GW do seem to enjoy being completely out of touch with their fanbase,
considering how well in touch they started out it's pretty bewildering at times 



Azezel said:


> You would not believe the splenetics that can occur in _that_ community.


splenitics? :dunno:

ah ha

according to wakipedia

Splenitics - The use of spleens in cross stitching DNA strands


----------



## Azezel

Splenetics means irritability, spitefulness, hate, anger etc.

Back in the day, it was imagined that different emotions found their seat in different internal organs. The heart was the seat of love, the liver was the seat of courage etc - and the spleen was the seat of anger.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Splenetics means irritability, spitefulness, hate, anger etc.


thanks, you learn something new each day


----------



## Irbian

Another thread closed on warseer. The Stickmonkey one with the info about the flyers

Great...


----------



## Azezel

Straightsilver posted a little more reportedly from the mouth of Jes Goodwin. The important bit is as follows:



StraightSilver said:


> The problem with the plastic Sisters of Battle is indeed the cloth robes on the sleeves as has been stated before, but also the hair strangely enough. One of the particularly tricky aspects of the Dark Eldar ws getting the hair on the Wyches right, as if you have hair flowing in one direction it makes posing more difficult, as everything needs to flow the same way. This suggests that any new SOB figures we see will be much more dynamic. He also said that shoulder pads had been giving them grief, as they want flowing script on them and that is presenting problems too.


Flowing script on the Sisters' spaulders? Can I get a 'hell yeah'?

As for the hair - Sisters of Battle have much more sensible haircuts than wyches - but I can see the point. It's one more potential problem added to all the other sleeve & robe related ones


----------



## Purge the Heretic

WOW, warseer is a mess atm...T-tauri is closing threads like he is getting paid on commission.

So glad I've become a more of a lurker than a poster there again.

On the plastic sisters:

Silverlight's post indicates that they've gotten as far as flowing script, flowing hair, and fabric...sounds to me like the bodies themselves and the faces are mostly done if they are on to detail work. 

another 3-6 months to get that sorted, then wait for a release window, late 2011 early 2012?


----------



## Azezel

I consider myself prebanned from Warseer - in that I looked at it and knew I wanted no part of that nasty thing.

I believe the trouble with the Mods over there is that they call themselves the Inquisition. One a group starts calling itself the =][=, it starts _thinking_ like the =][=...

Anyway - Jes has said that he hasn't even started on sisters, Purge the Heretic. So yeah, 2012 if the Emperor smiles.


----------



## Dynamike

Azezel said:


> if the Emperor smiles.


Ummm.. that's creepy..

Anyways... Let's all wish for the best for all the SoB players and well.. every 40k players as it is a great army worth being seen on the table. Both to play with or against.


----------



## mahavira

I confess I can't quite see how the current bowl cut would need much in the way of flowing, though there was talk of a mistress looking mini with a long braid, so possibly the dress code has lightened up some. 

I confess to surprise that they're talking about script on the shoulder pads - whatever they plan to say had best be short or it will be utterly (as opposed to mostly) illegible and a pain to paint besides. If they're actually scaling back the inquisition connection (boo) they probably needed somethign to replace the =I= with wings on the one shoulderpad (and are presumably replacing the inquisitorial rosette hanging from the waist, possibly with that ball thing the canoness and St. Celestine have).


----------



## Azezel

Without wishing to open the 'how closely tied to the Inquisition are the sisters of Battle' can of worms again, not every occurance of the letter 'I' in the game stands for the Inquisition.

Specifically - the Inquisition 'I' has three bars across its trunk (very rarely two, and that's likely a mistake or a problem of small details).

The 'I' hanging from their waists (The Chaplet Ecclesiasticus) does not stand for 'Inquisition', it is the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy.

Scads of organizations use the 'I' as their symbol including the Inquisition, Arbites, Telepathica and the Ecclesiarchy. Each I is different.

The Ecclesiarchy's I has a circle containing a skull on it - that's what the Sisters' Chaplet Ecclesiasicus* is. The 'I' on their left spaulder is not the Ecclesiarchy's symbol, it is the name of the Emperor himself.

The Emperor signed documents with an 'I'. The plain 'I' unadorned, marks them out as the Emperor's.


*Technically, the Chaplet is the string of beads, but having a big Ecclesiarchy I hanging off of it makes it a Chaplet Ecclesiasticus rather than any other chaplet


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> Another thread closed on warseer. The Stickmonkey one with the info about the flyers
> 
> Great...


Hmm, which thread was this and what flyer info? I must have missed it?
Could you give a link or paste the info posted?


Could someone just go tell Stickmonkey to come post here instead, atleast here he can be part of the discussion without having to worry about the thread getting locked every few hours.


----------



## coke123

There's actually already a thread on heresy in the rumours section with all the info on that particular warseer thread (as far as I can see). I'm suprised you haven't come across it here since you're a mod working in the rumours section, but anyway here is the heresy thread.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75106


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Without wishing to open the 'how closely tied to the Inquisition are the sisters of Battle' can of worms again, not every occurance of the letter 'I' in the game stands for the Inquisition.
> 
> Specifically - the Inquisition 'I' has three bars across its trunk (very rarely two, and that's likely a mistake or a problem of small details).
> 
> The 'I' hanging from their waists (The Chaplet Ecclesiasticus) does not stand for 'Inquisition', it is the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy.
> 
> Scads of organizations use the 'I' as their symbol including the Inquisition, Arbites, Telepathica and the Ecclesiarchy. Each I is different.
> 
> The Ecclesiarchy's I has a circle containing a skull on it - that's what the Sisters' Chaplet Ecclesiasicus* is. The 'I' on their left spaulder is not the Ecclesiarchy's symbol, it is the name of the Emperor himself.
> 
> The Emperor signed documents with an 'I'. The plain 'I' unadorned, marks them out as the Emperor's.
> 
> 
> *Technically, the Chaplet is the string of beads, but having a big Ecclesiarchy I hanging off of it makes it a Chaplet Ecclesiasticus rather than any other chaplet


Interesting. The battle sister in the foreground of the inside rear cover, which I had thought (perhaps wrongly) to be the cover of the 2E SoB codex doesn't have it so I presumed the I was inquisitorial.

The I on the shoulder isn't unadorned (or at least mine aren't), it has wings (as opposed to the I with the skull, which you say is the ecclesiarchy symbol). I've never seen the telepathica or arbites I, but I will take your word for it (I'm sure GW will get around to publishing a heraldry of the imperium book eventually), indeed I'd only seen it in Codex WH and DH (got into the game after the introduction of 5E) so I had presumed th variant I's to be indicative of the Ordo Hereticus and Malleus respectively (table of contents for DH has an I with a skull in a circle rather than a skull in a sunburst, also on pictures of Brother Captain Stern, IL Coteaz, and the icon page with the land raider). The Inquisitor on the front cover of codex WH seems to have the same I as the battle sister next to him (I is red, rimmed with gold, skull, and spikey protuberances). The shield on the crusader also looks a great deal like the SoB I (this could be because the models were originally used for something else (the enemies of witch hunters has apostate cardinals guarded by "pontifex guard" which were to be represented by crusader models)), and the acro flagellants have what you describe as the inquisition I (which is odd because an inquisitor can't actually take one without a worthless waste of points parasite overseeing it), and it is also prominent on the penitent engines they painted for the codex and in other places on both inquisitorial and SoB models. Whether usage changed over time or the staff artists and sculptors got careless (or models got repurposed) I couldn't say, but it would be nice if they made the marks more easily distinguishable.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> There's actually already a thread on heresy in the rumours section with all the info on that particular warseer thread (as far as I can see). I'm suprised you haven't come across it here since you're a mod working in the rumours section, but anyway here is the heresy thread.
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75106


It wasnt posted last time I checked the rumours section. Basically I check the rumours sections on different forums 3 times a day and then just stick to this thread reporting what I have seen.

After reading the rumour it seems very interesting indeed.



Stickmonkey said:


> So after reading the recent post about Jes's comments I wanted to get some inside skinny.
> 
> We know Jes mentioned the DE flyers as being "on the way" And we have had constant rumoring of the Storm Raven.
> 
> Well I did some work asking and this is what I have to report.
> 
> There are currently 7 flyers in development...some complete, some nearing completion.
> 
> Possibility for a summer "Flyer" White Dwarf to introduce them, including special rules.
> 
> Tau, Eldar/DE, Ork, SM, Nid, ???
> 
> It makes a lot of sense, but if each of these is roughly the size of a Valk set, that's a huge release.
> 
> It would give credence to prior rumors the Storm Raven would not be released with GK...assuming GK still make Q1.
> 
> It doesnt seem to invalidate anything Jes has said.
> 
> We have had a history of these "combined" releases occuring mid year for a few years.


So lets see what we´ve got

SM I would assume is GK and Blood Angels : Stormraven
Tau : TAU BARRACUDA or maybe Tiger Shark
Eldar/Dark Eldar : Phoenix/Razorwing Jetfighter/Voidraven Bomber
Ork : ORK 'CHINORK' WARCOPTA
Nid : Harpy

We have 7 right here if we count the Stormraven as 2 and the Eldar/Dark Eldar one as 2 but I doubt this to be the case.

If we assume the Stormraven and the Eldar/Dark Eldar one is cross compatible (like the valk being able to make the Valkyrie and Vendetta) then we have 5 out of 7.

So whats missing from the above list?
We could assume all SM chapters will get the Stormraven if they do some sort of WD released (wouldnt surprise me in the least to boost sales).
Chaos Space Marines? I guess they would get the Stormraven as well.
Sisters of Battle would get Valkyrie or Stormraven or both Id think, Id doubt they´d make something special for sisters since they wont even have boxed models unless they do the WD SoB update and repackage the boxes as we have been hearing.

This pretty much leaves us with 2 Choices for the last 2 flier slots, Necrons and Chaos Daemons.
Im not too familiar with Necron lore to know what kind of flyer they would get unless they would repackage the Monolith to come with a flyer stand.
Chaos Daemons I dont know much about either, maybe some Avatar of Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle/Tzeentch or something?

So what do you guys think? Something Ive missed?

IG already has the Valk and a model for it so I doubt they would get anything.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Interesting. The battle sister in the foreground of the inside rear cover, which I had thought (perhaps wrongly) to be the cover of the 2E SoB codex doesn't have it so I presumed the I was inquisitorial.


Yes it is the 2E codex cover.
Its drawn by Blanche....do I have to explain more?
Basically anything he draws really cant be taken into consideration in regards to anything related to 40k....

About the models, as far as I am aware most of them have looked the way they do since 2ed. I own 2 of the old type Canonesses and to my knowledge its the only model in the range to get remade. Im talking about Battle Sisters and Seraphim btw, Arcos and the rest came with 3ed afaik.
Model can be seen on the inside of the back page of 2ed Sisters of Battle codex where the Canoness is facing Fabius Bile. Came with combiflamer weapon which I think is pretty cool looking. Heres hoping Celestians can all take combiflamers for 5pt each like a certain other army can...


----------



## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> It wasnt posted last time I checked the rumours section. Basically I check the rumours sections on different forums 3 times a day and then just stick to this thread reporting what I have seen.
> 
> After reading the rumour it seems very interesting indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> So lets see what we´ve got
> 
> SM I would assume is GK and Blood Angels : Stormraven
> Tau : TAU BARRACUDA or maybe Tiger Shark
> Eldar/Dark Eldar : Phoenix/Razorwing Jetfighter/Voidraven Bomber
> Ork : ORK 'CHINORK' WARCOPTA
> Nid : Harpy
> 
> We have 7 right here if we count the Stormraven as 2 and the Eldar/Dark Eldar one as 2 but I doubt this to be the case.
> 
> If we assume the Stormraven and the Eldar/Dark Eldar one is cross compatible (like the valk being able to make the Valkyrie and Vendetta) then we have 5 out of 7.
> 
> So whats missing from the above list?
> We could assume all SM chapters will get the Stormraven if they do some sort of WD released (wouldnt surprise me in the least to boost sales).
> Chaos Space Marines? I guess they would get the Stormraven as well.
> Sisters of Battle would get Valkyrie or Stormraven or both Id think, Id doubt they´d make something special for sisters since they wont even have boxed models unless they do the WD SoB update and repackage the boxes as we have been hearing.
> 
> This pretty much leaves us with 2 Choices for the last 2 flier slots, Necrons and Chaos Daemons.
> Im not too familiar with Necron lore to know what kind of flyer they would get unless they would repackage the Monolith to come with a flyer stand.
> Chaos Daemons I dont know much about either, maybe some Avatar of Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle/Tzeentch or something?
> 
> So what do you guys think? Something Ive missed?
> 
> IG already has the Valk and a model for it so I doubt they would get anything.


It says in the orbital bombardment section that Battle Sisters have to rely on the imperial navy for transport and orbital bombardments, so they may have to borrow naval or IG fliers (or perhaps DoW was right and they'll have lightning fighters).


----------



## Winterous

Well the Vendetta can't really be one of those, since it would be a modification kit, rather than a whole new model.

So Storm Raven, Harpy, the DE ones those four seem to most obvious.
I think the Barracuda seems likely, it's a nice model, and Tau need some love.

The Chinork is probably a no, that's kinda silly really; I'd say more likely a Fighta-Bomma.
This is of course assuming they're giving the 'actual' fliers WD rules, as like an extra thing.
Alternatively they could be adding units like they did with the Night Spinner, which is most welcome!
If that's the case, I think the Chinork is even less likely, as it's just another transport on the pile that Orks already have.

Possibly an Eldar one, that would be nice.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> Straightsilver posted a little more reportedly from the mouth of Jes Goodwin. The important bit is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> StraightSilver said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with the plastic Sisters of Battle is indeed the cloth robes on the sleeves as has been stated before, but also the hair strangely enough. One of the particularly tricky aspects of the Dark Eldar ws getting the hair on the Wyches right, as if you have hair flowing in one direction it makes posing more difficult, as everything needs to flow the same way. This suggests that any new SOB figures we see will be much more dynamic. He also said that shoulder pads had been giving them grief, as they want flowing script on them and that is presenting problems too.
> 
> 
> 
> Flowing script on the Sisters' spaulders? Can I get a 'hell yeah'?
> 
> As for the hair - Sisters of Battle have much more sensible haircuts than wyches - but I can see the point. It's one more potential problem added to all the other sleeve & robe related ones
Click to expand...

When looking at the 3ed WH codex cover you can see the Battle Sisters having LOADS of scrolls wrapped around them and purity seals hanging left and right. Could this be the way they will look? I always loved the idea of Repentia getting scrolls of repentance sown into their skin, I would love to see Repentia models being basically naked with text rolls sown into their skin.
Doubt GW would do that though with their "kids friendly" attitude over the last few years.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Eldar/Dark Eldar : Phoenix/Razorwing Jetfighter/Voidraven Bomber


I was asking the guys at my local about this myself. I haven't had time to read it myself, but apparently in this month's White Dwarf DE design notes, either Phil or Jes have said that they wanted the Razorwing and Voidraven to remain unique to the dark eldar, so it's unlikely that they'll be usable by the craftworlds. so craftworlds will probably see phoenix or a void dragon? Though void dragons are pretty damn big.


----------



## Irbian

Sorry, I was wrong, it wasnt closed, it was more funny. It was moved to 40k general because it hasnt rumours on it (WTF )

Here the link http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282301


----------



## GrizBe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Could someone just go tell Stickmonkey to come post here instead, atleast here he can be part of the discussion without having to worry about the thread getting locked every few hours.


You know... we should send a forum commitee to go message him and ask him here. And Harry and Scyer too, for exactly that reason of threads keep getting locked and the mods being overzealous.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I just remembered there has been some rumours about a plastic thunderhawk, maybe that's what we will be seeing for SM?


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> Interesting. The battle sister in the foreground of the inside rear cover, which I had thought (perhaps wrongly) to be the cover of the 2E SoB codex doesn't have it so I presumed the I was inquisitorial.
> 
> The I on the shoulder isn't unadorned (or at least mine aren't), it has wings (as opposed to the I with the skull, which you say is the ecclesiarchy symbol). I've never seen the telepathica or arbites I, but I will take your word for it (I'm sure GW will get around to publishing a heraldry of the imperium book eventually), indeed I'd only seen it in Codex WH and DH (got into the game after the introduction of 5E) so I had presumed th variant I's to be indicative of the Ordo Hereticus and Malleus respectively (table of contents for DH has an I with a skull in a circle rather than a skull in a sunburst, also on pictures of Brother Captain Stern, IL Coteaz, and the icon page with the land raider). The Inquisitor on the front cover of codex WH seems to have the same I as the battle sister next to him (I is red, rimmed with gold, skull, and spikey protuberances). The shield on the crusader also looks a great deal like the SoB I (this could be because the models were originally used for something else (the enemies of witch hunters has apostate cardinals guarded by "pontifex guard" which were to be represented by crusader models)), and the acro flagellants have what you describe as the inquisition I (which is odd because an inquisitor can't actually take one without a worthless waste of points parasite overseeing it), and it is also prominent on the penitent engines they painted for the codex and in other places on both inquisitorial and SoB models. Whether usage changed over time or the staff artists and sculptors got careless (or models got repurposed) I couldn't say, but it would be nice if they made the marks more easily distinguishable.


The 'I' on the shoulder is unadorned - it is also superimposed on a pair of wings - it's a subtle difference, but things like that matter in heraldry and iconography..

The Crusader's shield has the Inquisitions tripple-bared I on it and the Inquisitor on C:WH has a tripple-bared I with a skull on it. The Sister on the cover has an Ecclesiarchy I with bursts, they are different.

You're right about the Penitent Engines and Arcos in the codex thouugh - they do have Inquisition Is on them. Best Guess: Nobody told the 'Eavy Metal team what the different Is meant (You get both Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy Is on the decal sheet).



MadCowCrazy said:


> When looking at the 3ed WH codex cover you can see the Battle Sisters having LOADS of scrolls wrapped around them and purity seals hanging left and right. Could this be the way they will look? I always loved the idea of Repentia getting scrolls of repentance sown into their skin, I would love to see Repentia models being basically naked with text rolls sown into their skin.
> Doubt GW would do that though with their "kids friendly" attitude over the last few years.


I'm not actually a huge fan of the almost-naked Repentia thing. I'd rather see them in hooded robes m'self.


----------



## Azezel

Incidentally:









Ecclesiarchy









Administratum









Telepathica









Astronomica









Arbites


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I just remembered there has been some rumours about a plastic thunderhawk, maybe that's what we will be seeing for SM?


I wouldn't get your hopes up on that, if they are releasing multiple kits for multiple armies then we'll be seeing almost exclusively smaller flyers


----------



## DonFer

I find the late 2011, early 2012, release date for Sisters quite terrible, since there aren't any sisters out there to buy. I mean, 2 years of zero activity for any army is as harmful as squatting it altogether.


----------



## Irbian

Oh my oh my oh my...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282670


----------



## soulreaver296

If that is the real model, then all i can say is, "meh". It has potential for kit-bashing, mind you. I could see starting with that and a Valkyrie to get a much nicer model overall, but (from this angle at least), its too tall and too short.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive marked an interesting bit in red, so if we get Skaven 2nd wave in Jan does this mean BA 2nd wave in Feb? or will we get it in Jan as well simply because the Feb WD will be released late Jan? Only time will tell I suppose, if GK were released in Feb as well then I guess the Stormraven could be a huge seller for them as well.



> Over the next few pages, we will be taking a look at how to paint the Blood Angels Stormraven Gunship, including how to weather the vehicle and paint the interior detail. A great addition and centrepiece model for any Blood Angels army, this will be an invaluable guide to help you get the most from this fantastic kit.
> 
> Death from Above
> The Stormraven Gunship is an incredibly versatile craft, able to fulfill the roll of orbital dropship, armoured transport and strike aircraft in a way that few, or indeed any, ships could hope to match. The Stormraven ensures that the Blood Angels remain undisputed masters of the skies, as dominant in the air as their troops are on the ground. Smaller and nimbler than the more cumbersome Thunderhawk Gunships, the Stormraven's compact hull and vectored thrusters enable it to operate at maximum efficiency in all but the densest terrain. A Stormraven can often be seen hurtling straight into the heart of the enemy forces, unleashing its considerable arsenal in a terrifying display of firepower, before disgorging a squad, Dreadnought, or even both, into the thick of the fighting.
> 
> On the tabletop
> With its potent firepower, speed and transport capacity, the uses of a Stormraven on the battlefield are myriad, but its role of choice is as an unparalleled assault vehicle. With a huge variety of weapon options, and no less than four tank-busting Bloodstrike Missiles, both enemy infantry and vehicles alike fear drawing the attention of its guns. A transport capacity of 12 combined with the ability to safely carry a Dreadnought to battle as well certainly proves the Stormraven to be a transport vehicle of the very finest quality. This unique combination of speed, firepower and transport capacity means that a Stormraven can support any tactical preference, so there is always a place for it in any Blood Angels army.
> 
> Nick: A Stormraven will be the focal point of your army, so it's well worth giving it a lot of attention when painting it. These techniques can effectively be applied to any other vehicles in your Blood Angels army too, so keep this in mind and you will have a great looking fleet of vehicles in no time. I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf; it's part of the 3rd Company, in keeping with the rest of the models. As a personal touch, I've weathered the model to appear heavily battle worn, but if you wish to keep your vehicle in pristine condition, skip page 6 and you'll have an immaculate vehicle, fresh as if at the beginning of a campaign.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh, does anyone know the symbol for Ordo Sepulturum since my Sisters army is based on that ordo Id like to make some markings for it. So anyone know?


----------



## Azezel

I'd not heard of them.

However - so far as I know, the individual Ordos all use the same three-barred I, and even then, the Sisterhood are still part of the Ecclesiarchy, and chamber militant of the Hereticus, so it's doubly unlikely that they would wear the insignia of a minor Ordo of the Inquisition.

I think the minor ordos don't have chambers militant at all, merely stormtroopers and inducted guard.

If you're keen though - have you considered an I with a pair of snakes twined around it a la the caduceus (q.v.)?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wouldnt that be more prominent for the Ordo Hospitaller?


----------



## Mathai

Hmm, the way its worded, *"I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf," *makes me think that this 'article' is being released after a different Blood Angels army was painted and shown in February. So I'd be inclined to assume that this wouldnt be untill March at the earliest.


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> Hmm, the way its worded, *"I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf," *makes me think that this 'article' is being released after a different Blood Angels army was painted and shown in February. So I'd be inclined to assume that this wouldnt be untill March at the earliest.


My thoughts as well.
But damn, that model looks pretty sweet.
Sure it looks a little awkward, but it might just be a bad angle, and that doesn't mean it isn't cool looking.


----------



## GrizBe

It sounds past tense to me... but it seems to be saying that Febuary's White Dwarf will have a Blood Angel's feature, meaning that then will have BA 2nd wave. 

I'm guessing though, maybe we'll see it Febuary... and hopefully a GK paint scheme for it come march *fingers crossed*


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Mathai said:


> Hmm, the way its worded, *"I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf," *makes me think that this 'article' is being released after a different Blood Angels army was painted and shown in February. So I'd be inclined to assume that this wouldnt be untill March at the earliest.


Does this mean that the BA will finally get their Battleforce box?


----------



## Vhalyar

Oh jesus that thing is ugly


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Does this mean that the BA will finally get their Battleforce box?


Maybe, but he could be using the word 'battleforce' as a general term, since wouldn't that imply there's a SR in the BA battleforce?



Vhalyar said:


> Oh jesus that thing is ugly


To me it almost looks cute, but not the good kind. Like the volkswagon beetle of 40k flyers.


----------



## Mathai

I keep thinking of it as the short bus that the Space Marines use to get their 'special' Marines to battle.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> To me it almost looks cute, but not the good kind. Like the volkswagon beetle of 40k flyers.


It is cute, it's like a pug :3



Mathai said:


> I keep thinking of it as the short bus that the Space Marines use to get their 'special' Marines to battle on.


I would +rep, but alas, I cannot D:


----------



## Kettu

Hehehe... A combination of Laziness, TAFE and Halo Reach has kept me from the net for some time however I'm am back...
And have to go in the next min or so.

Ok, the Golden Daemon finals Australia is tomorrow at the Sydney store but with all the xmas shopping I have to do and the six assignments due in the next week or two I can't go.
However, from what the manager at my local said there wouldn't be any of the design team there but the 'Head of White Dwarf'.

Oh well.

P.S Dear god, the poor thunderhawk shrunk in the wash.


----------



## coke123

Mathai said:


> I keep thinking of it as the short bus that the Space Marines use to get their 'special' Marines to battle.


Oh my god, that's exactly it! I still like the model though, even if it isn't perhaps their best attempt.



Kettu said:


> Ok, the Golden Daemon finals Australia is tomorrow at the Sydney store but with all the xmas shopping I have to do and the six assignments due in the next week or two I can't go.
> However, from what the manager at my local said there wouldn't be any of the design team there but the 'Head of White Dwarf'.


Yeah, I was gonna go too, but alas, tis pudding season once again, and they aren't gonna wrap themselves!


----------



## Azezel

From Bigred of the BolS:



Bigred said:


> So far the biggest divergence we've seen in the rumormill is the role of non-Grey Knight forces in the codex, and what its overall focus is. Basically the million dollar question is: Is this a Grey-Knight codex, or a broader Inquisitorial codex like the old book is. Here is a list of what we've heard:
> 
> -Grey Knights are the focus of the book. Aside from Grey Knights, the codex contains Inquisitors as HQs, Assassins, and a SINGLE additional non-GK unit.
> 
> -ISTs are out, though the models can be used to represent one of the types of retinues available to Inquisitors.
> 
> -Speaking of that, Inquisitors will have multiple options for retinues, folding some of the previous codex's more esoteric standalone units into them. ~editor's note: this sounds roughly like what the Archon's retinue structure looks like.
> 
> -The Grey Knights chapter fluff is expanded up and defined. It is exotic and not the traditional 1000 men in 10 hundred-man companies type of thing.
> 
> -New Grey Knight units are introduced.
> 
> -All GK units have psychic powers - including vehicles.
> 
> -The GKs will fill out many of the missing allied FOC slots with a full Space Marine vehicle selection (with nice GK equipment options)
> 
> -Multiple Assassins can be taken. ~editor's note, interesting as Black Library just came out with a novel focusing on the Imperium's sanctioning of Assassin strike teams.
> 
> -GK Terminators are troops.
> 
> -The army is not described as lightning fast like the Blood Angels or Dark Eldar but have flexible deployment options to initially get where they need to quickly.
> 
> ~Standard caveats on these as we are still over a quarter away from release. The big thing is this is very much sounding like a strong Marine book, emphasizing the Grey Knights with minor support options, as opposed to the old codex which let players sideline the Daemonhunters if they desired. This is definately not sounding like an "IG-Lite" book.


----------



## coke123

Terminators as troops? where did that come from? Surely you at least need a character a la Belial?

And psychic powers for vehicles sounds interesting- A psychic Land Raider?

All in all, I like what I'm seeing. Ticks pretty much all my boxes.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> And psychic powers for vehicles sounds interesting- A psychic Land Raider?


I believe it would be spelled 'a Rychic Psand Laider'.
I too like this concept.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm liking the 'Psychic vehicles bit'... but less so the 'standard SM vehicles with GK equipment'. Okay, Razorback with Psy cannons yeah... But a Psy-wind? Psyator? Psy-speeder? Not too sure about that...

I'd doubt IST's are gone... they've always been a solid part of fluff. Reducing them to a 'and these are my bitches' role seems stupid.

Now... 'Multiple assasins can be taken'. Does this mean you could take one from each cult, or that we now have assasins 'squads'? Or is it simply a curruption of the Death Cult Assasins having bigger squad numbers rumour?

Logic would suggest is just the bigger squad size for Death Cult.... Having a squad of say, 3 vindicare's seems too wish listy, and one from each cult seems the same too.


----------



## Vhalyar

Mathai said:


> I keep thinking of it as the short bus that the Space Marines use to get their 'special' Marines to battle.


Tilt it a bit clockwise and it looks like.. a bomb. That thing looks like it's supposed to be dropped straight down, where it'll turn into a giant fiery ball once it hits the ground. So yes, the perfect short bus since it gets rid of all the annoyances (both enemy and allied)! :biggrin:

Removing the top turret and exhaust would do wonders. Tucking the wings & turbines closer + lower to the body to streamline the overall shape would also be a huge improvement. I really don't get why the designer wanted to make something so ridiculously vertical. It's a shame that the Caestus Assault Ram is so expensive or it'd make a great alternative.

And vehicles with psychic powers? That seems like such an amusing concept, I hope it turns out to be true. As for the removal of IST, it's not all that far fetched. If the book is truly about "Pure Breed Grey Knights, ho!" it makes sense; plus they still play a role as an Inquisitor retinue unit. If it's like the Court of the Archon, then you can expect to field a fair bunch of them if you want.


----------



## Azezel

Vehicles with psychic powers (well, vehicle _crew_ with psychic powers) seems like a top idea.

One of the things that continually niggles me about the current C:WH is that Sororitas vehicles are explicitly crewed by Battle Sisters, and yet lack the _Adepta Sororitas_ rule - and thus the Shield of Faith.


What exactly is the court of the Archon and what would that mean for Inquisitors if the rumour is true?

By the same token, any vehicle crewed by grey Knights should had some psychic mojo.


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> What exactly is the court of the Archon and what would that mean for Inquisitors if the rumour is true?


Basically a retinue composed of four different units. At the minimum the court is one of each unit, and you can increase the numbers depending on each unit's max.


----------



## Tuatara

Vhalyar said:


> I really don't get why the designer wanted to make something so ridiculously vertical.


Isn't it also supposed to be able to carry a Dread as well as a squad? I vaguely recall something like that. That would mean the vertical look would be understandable, although there should have been nothing wrong with the dread held horizontally while in flight and they unclip the feet first when dropping it off so they swing down to hit the ground first.

I guess the similarities with other imperial flyers is two-fold: 1 - They will say it is to maintain the theme. 2 - more likely it is a pure commercial decision. They are possibly able to use some of the current moulds (molds? which one is it?) or even some of the cad drawings in order to keep design and manufacturing costs down.

Whatever the reasons, the thing is butt ugly, yet if they become available for the GK, I will most likely get one (or two, or three...). It's a shame my painting skills will see it become even uglier :laugh:


----------



## Vhalyar

Tuatara said:


> Isn't it also supposed to be able to carry a Dread as well as a squad? I vaguely recall something like that. That would mean the vertical look would be understandable, although there should have been nothing wrong with the dread held horizontally while in flight and they unclip the feet first when dropping it off so they swing down to hit the ground first.


There's the dread, which is why the rear slops up, but the big honking turret at the top with the even bigger (unnecessary) vent? They just add more height to a model that really doesn't need it and make it look even more unbalanced. If anything, removing those would have given it a slightly Rhino/Land Raider-ish look, which would be more fitting for Space Marines. Elongating the main body would have helped make it seem more balanced, too.

I'm sure that people will come up with great and simple fixes to make the model more appealing. The foundations for something neat are there, but the execution is terrible.


----------



## boreas

I just got FW's newsletter #254. I'm surprised they didn't gloat: "haha, WE have the Caestus! OUR flyer looks good!. BUY IT!".

Phil


----------



## VanitusMalus

That Stormraven Gunship is the ugliest piece of crap released to date (well in the last few years anyway)


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> I'm sure that people will come up with great and simple fixes to make the model more appealing.


Hit it with a big hammer?

More srriously, the only way that thing will ever look good is when Ork players get their hands on it.

Which is a shame because (while I'm, no expert) I can't actually think of a single other truely ugly current vehicle.

EDIT - the new Night Spinner was horrible, but at least that's just the turret.


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> Hit it with a big hammer?
> 
> More srriously, the only way that thing will ever look good is when Ork players get their hands on it.
> 
> Which is a shame because (while I'm, no expert) I can't actually think of a single other truely ugly current vehicle.
> 
> EDIT - the new Night Spinner was horrible, but at least that's just the turret.


Here's a mockup someone did at Dakka.
Elongated body, crap at the top removed, wings lowed & tuckered in, balanced take-off/landing system, silly paper-thin wing removed. Looks great and more Space Marine-like than the flying turd. The only negative about those changes is there's no obvious loading area for the dreadnought, although you could fix that pretty easily.

Thankfully, all these changes save for the elongated body seem simple enough.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> EDIT - the new Night Spinner was horrible, but at least that's just the turret.


What the hell are you on? It looks great!


----------



## Azezel

@Valyar - yep, that's a much, much better looking 'bird.

@Winterous - the new plastic Fire Prism is sensational - but the Night Spinner is, well, less ugly than the Stormraven, he says, damning with the faintest possible praise...


----------



## coke123

Just found this on the GW Australia site- Does anyone have any idea what it means/what it's about?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=7500004a

I'll try to get there, but I can't make any guarantees.


----------



## boreas

They will tow Australia nearer UK so you can get more reasonable prices on GW stuff... Darn it, we Canadians are but an attachment to the USA, so we can't be so easily moved.

Phil


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> Just found this on the GW Australia site- Does anyone have any idea what it means/what it's about?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=7500004a
> 
> I'll try to get there, but I can't make any guarantees.


I suppose it's _j-u-s-t_ time that they could announce GK for a February release...

Seems unlikely though. With the best will in the world, I don't think GW would reveal anything major to the colonies first.


----------



## Shandathe

Hrmm. I got what was essentially a confirmation that we'll be seeing Grey Knights shortly... Which I'm mostly willing to trust because the source obviously didn't mean to give me one. Couldn't exactly ask many questions for that reason... bah.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> @Winterous - the new plastic Fire Prism is sensational - but the Night Spinner is, well, less ugly than the Stormraven, he says, damning with the faintest possible praise...


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...0745a_99120104029_EldarFirePrism2_873x627.jpg
That model is beautiful, the only problem I can even imagine is that the gun mountings are a little bulbous.


----------



## Mathai

I'm not sure why people dont like the Night Spinner. Because it doesnt have the biggest guns? To me the Night Spinner barrels look very 'realistic' for something that will be shooting out a net of sorts.

If anything, I think its the new Fire Prism Cannon that is downright goofy. Not ugly, per se, just....goofy.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> I suppose it's _j-u-s-t_ time that they could announce GK for a February release...
> 
> Seems unlikely though. With the best will in the world, I don't think GW would reveal anything major to the colonies first.


Hate it when those damn imperial bastards are right. Nothing on Grey Knights, although they did announce a Games Day Australia for October 1st 2011! :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

They could unveil some new super-heavy vehicles, I read somewhere that they're better equipped to produce larger models now.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I suppose it's _j-u-s-t_ time that they could announce GK for a February release...
> 
> Seems unlikely though. With the best will in the world, I don't think GW would reveal anything major to the colonies first.


it would be surprisingly early to announce a feb release, 
if GW are hyping it a little this probably means it's going to be repackaged glue or something akin


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> it would be surprisingly early to announce a feb release,
> if GW are hyping it a little this probably means it's going to be repackaged glue or something akin


Is everything okay? You've been more acerbic towards GW than me lately :laugh:

Phil


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> damn imperial bastards


I could have phrased that better. Cheerfully withdrawn.


----------



## Tuatara

Bindi Baji said:


> it would be surprisingly early to announce a feb release,
> if GW are hyping it a little this probably means it's going to be repackaged glue or something akin


Don't even joke about that man. Do you know how long I have been hanging out for GW to release a new glue container? Well, only since May as it happens as that's when I started this hobby, but that's beside the point. (Actually - Their glue containers are a piece of dried up pony dung and it would be nice if they did release new ones  ).


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> Is everything okay? You've been more acerbic towards GW than me lately :laugh:
> 
> Phil


actually when I have seemed to be acerbic to you in the past it was merely misconstrued, it is very easy to get the wrong idea from messages, text messages are fantastic for this.
I apologise for not clearing that up as I have no problem with you.

I like GW and make no bones about it, however they have the ability to shoot themselves in the foot near weekly, 
GW are at times the business equivalent of Ed Wood.

One case that comes to mind was breaking news on the GW website that was minorly hyped to be announced soon, 
this turned out to be some artwork, 
GW hyped this up themselves and were surprised at some of the reaction, and while most people found this funny, 
a good few others were inches away from pitchforks and torches.


----------



## GrizBe

You knowm people really should upgrade to the new 'Omni-fork' Burning Pitchforks... torch and Pitchfork in one, for extra burny mob goings!


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> actually when I have seemed to be acerbic to you in the past it was merely misconstrued, it is very easy to get the wrong idea from messages, text messages are fantastic for this.
> I apologise for not clearing that up as I have no problem with you.
> .


Actually, my grammar was pretty bad. You've never been acerbic towards me that I can remember! 

Yeah, GW is really a love-hate thing for me. My main problem with them is that I can't buy as much stuff from them as I'd like, mainly because they haven't updated my armies in the last few months... err years... decades?



GrizBe said:


> You knowm people really should upgrade to the new 'Omni-fork' Burning Pitchforks... torch and Pitchfork in one, for extra burny mob goings!


Optionnal on the zaelots in the next SoB codex?

Phil


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> I could have phrased that better. Cheerfully withdrawn.


Oh, it's not like I took offense, twas but mere banter between colony and mother country. To be honest, Australians give the English way more crap than the other way around, to be offended by that would be the height of hipocrisy.


----------



## Azezel

Oh good. You never can tell with text-based communication.

And it is good news about the Games Day.


----------



## Azezel

We've all expected it, but I've just seen what would appear to be confirmation that the Stormraven will be in the GK codex (and available for all other Space Marine 'dexes).

Frg/10 on _Warseer_ spills the beans. He claims to have seen multiple pictures of the Stormmraven and other future releases.



Frgt/10 said:


> in fact as of feb [the Stormraven] will be more than just BA and grey knights...


He also suggests there will be a shared BA/GK dreadnought kit (Mostly BA).


----------



## boreas

Azezel said:


> We've all expected it, but I've just seen what would appear to be confirmation that the Stormraven will be in the GK codex (and available for all other Space Marine 'dexes).
> 
> Frg/10 on _Warseer_ spills the beans. He claims to have seen multiple pictures of the Stormmraven and other future releases.
> 
> He also suggests there will be a shared BA/GK dreadnought kit (Mostly BA).


Somehow, I find this depressing... I really wish for our day in the light. I'm eager for news of stuff that will be GK-only. Can we please be make-everyone-jealous-uber-cool, even if just for a month? I guess that'll come. Sigh...

Phil


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> Can we please be make-everyone-jealous-uber-cool, even if just for a month? I guess that'll come. Sigh...
> 
> Phil


Isn't this precisely what a new codex release entails (or at least how they are designed to work)?


----------



## tu_shan82

Azezel said:


> We've all expected it, but I've just seen what would appear to be confirmation that the Stormraven will be in the GK codex (and available for all other Space Marine 'dexes).
> 
> Frg/10 on _Warseer_ spills the beans. He claims to have seen multiple pictures of the Stormmraven and other future releases.
> 
> 
> 
> He also suggests there will be a shared BA/GK dreadnought kit (Mostly BA).


I might just have to try out an air cav list for my DA if this is true.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> He also suggests there will be a shared BA/GK dreadnought kit (Mostly BA).


Probably the Furioso Dread that has been rumoured for a release. I would quess it to be a general new dread release and that you could but GK sprue and BA sprue separately for it.


----------



## GrizBe

Stormraven for more then just BA and GK is kinda depressing... but it does make good financial sense if you can sell it to every Marine player. 

I'd also guess that the joint Dread kit might be the librarian dread... the force CCW could double as the nemesis force weapon afterall.


----------



## boreas

coke123 said:


> Isn't this precisely what a new codex release entails (or at least how they are designed to work)?


It really should! But right now, the two rumors I get are shared kits. I guess I'm just eager to cuddle with a GK-only kits while going "my preciousssss...". 

I won't actually do that, because then my wife and kids would be scared. :laugh:

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Just so long as you still wave it around while making engine noises with your lips. I'm not sure I could trust someone who didn't do that occasionally.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Just so long as you still wave it around while making engine noises with your lips. I'm not sure I could trust someone who didn't do that occasionally.


FUCKING LOL!


----------



## boreas

Guilty... Don't forget going "pew-pew-pew" when you fire!


----------



## HOBO

I'll be happy to replace my LR's for SR's for my GK(T) to ride in if they're in the new Codex...that'll be a unique and different look for them on the board, plus soak up a similar amount of points.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> (and available for all other Space Marine 'dexes).


while I expect that may well eventually be the case (ie next ultramarine codex) I would be very surprised if it was going to happen soon, 
as for everyone getting it in february :laugh:


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> while I expect that may well eventually be the case (ie next ultramarine codex) I would be very surprised if it was going to happen soon,
> as for everyone getting it in february :laugh:


May I direct you to the Night Spinner?
A White Dwarf released article giving official rules to the Eldar which are now effectively part of the codex.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> May I direct you to the Night Spinner?
> A White Dwarf released article giving official rules to the Eldar which are now effectively part of the codex.


ah but the night spinner wasn't aimed (at least initially) at one or two particular eldar craftworlds, 
as I said I do believe it may well turn up for other SM eventually but I am aware that from it's conception it was intended purely for BA and GK (with others possibly later)


----------



## Winterous

What I mean is we probably won't have to wait for a new codex to get it with vanilla SM :3


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> What I mean is we probably won't have to wait for a new codex to get it with vanilla SM :3


I knew what you meant but that certainly wasn't the plan as of fairly recently


----------



## GrizBe

I'd rather it was just for BA and GK.... but you really can't deny the marketing potential of selling a kit thats between £40-60, an educated guess looking at it material wise as its somewhere between a land raider and a baneblade, to every marine player rather then just BA or GK ones.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think its sad if more than BA and GK get the Stormraven, I could accept BT and DA getting it because they are speciality chapters but pure marines already have so much so the others need to be somewhat unique. You dont see the Thunderfire Cannon being given out to other armies do you?

Then again GW has become quite greedy over the last few years, its not about making a fun game anymore, its about making money which sucks for us as players and fans because it means less individuality.


----------



## tu_shan82

Bindi Baji said:


> ah but the night spinner wasn't aimed (at least initially) at one or two particular eldar craftworlds,
> as I said I do believe it may well turn up for other SM eventually but I am aware that from it's conception it was intended purely for BA and GK (with others possibly later)



The Night Spinner may not have been aimed at one or two particular craftworlds, however the Land Raider Crusader, which was specifically aimed at the Black Templars upon release, was made available to all other marine armies at the same time, albeit in limited numbers. However, that was back in the day when White Dwarf was a hobby magazine as opposed to the glorified sales brochure it is today. Basically I won't be surprised either way if it is made available for other marine armies or not.


----------



## Azezel

It's not greed, just sound business sense. I don't think anyone really expected the Thunk to be limited to just BA and GK, the only question was 'how soon'.

Games Workshop is not Father Christmas. They have to concentrate on making money.

Any my heart doesn't exactly bleed for Space Marine players and their _five_ to _seven_ codices of variant options! The variations are damned small, I grant, but it's more than any other army gets.


----------



## GrizBe

With all the resources and time GW must put into variant space marine chapters... think what other armies it could do with that time... 

The Ad Mech for one, off the top of my head that players have said they've wanted for years.


----------



## Mathai

But that focus on making 5 to 7 armies that are virtually the same except for small differences will also potentially be bad business I think. I know I love my Grey Knights. But if they end up becomming another Space Marine 'dex with the obligatory few small changes so that GW can claim they are an indavidual entity, I'm pretty sure I wont even bother buying the codex. And I dont think I am alone in that. The Valkyrie is currently only an IG unit if I am correct, and I doubt they are having any issues with sales for that. (I just saw three new Valks pop up in our game store to be played this last week alone) If they released it for Space Marines and Witch Hunters and every other army iin the imperium, it would sell more units initially yes, but I think it would be detrimental to long term sales accross the IG board when players no longer need to play a huge and sometimes bothersome to paint army anymore to get access to the very unique dropship.


----------



## Azezel

Grey Knights are probably the only lot of Marines that legitimately deserve their own 'dex.

However, on one matter at least, Games Workshop and I seem to be of one mind - Space Marines are one army with a lot of books. Hence the tendency for a given unit to spread to all Marine dexes over time (The Cruusader is a good example. I imagine we'll be seeing Thunderfire Canons in the spare Marine 'dexes ere long).

I think GW does a pretty good job of maintaining a theme for each army - but how you feel about that may differ depending on your definition of 'army' (Is the Inquisition one army or two? Could even be three or four.).

GW seem to regard all Marines (except chaos & GK) as one army the Guard as a different army, which is why they don't have Rhinos, for example, and the Marines likely won't get Valkyries. I'd be (slightly) surprised to see the Valkyrie in the putative Sisters 'dex either, save as a DT for ISTs.


Ugh... this digression can mean only one thing, we're in for another rumours drought. Sit tight and break out your deep fried beer, people.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

In the end you will probably be able to pick up any SM box, paint them however you want and then use a new SM codex every week or whichever is the best one that month. Since all the armies will use the same models and the only difference is the paint and a few rules here and there in their codicies.

Im so happy I dont play SM and never intend to do so, I am worried my GK will just turn into unpainted marine chapter X. Technically you should be able to take a completely unpainted GK army to a tournament and claim its their official paint scheme since they dont paint their armour in the fluff...


----------



## GrizBe

Good plan for saving on buying paint there MadCow :biggrin:


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Grey Knights are probably the only lot of Marines that legitimately deserve their own 'dex.


I'd have to disagree with you here. Black Templars and Space Wolves certainly deserve their own codices, seeing as how they're not really strict astartes. Although I don't see how Blood Angels or Dark Angels can't be covered by the vanilla book.


----------



## Kettu

Black Temps are marines/w scouts serving as bullet-shields.
You could do them in a page of special rules.
Space Wolves were little more then scouts in PA and Vets in Carapace.
Now, however, in an ill attempt to force individuality on them, have changed them to such a large extent.
Same with BA, who still ended up Marines/w jump-packs.

Ahh... Fun.
I have been keeping an eye out for Fantasy Flight Games's Dark Heresy 'splatbook' Blood of Martyrs and well, their website still says 'fall', other web sites have late November all the way to late December and Amazon has late January.
I have asked at all my locals and none of them were even aware such a book was coming or even in the works in the first place.

But with the Aussie dollar the highest its been in decades (almost 1:1) I'll probably forsake support of Australian Industry and just go straight for a net purchase.


----------



## Azezel

I'm looking forward to Blood of Martyrs too, though I haven't been following the rumours because I knew you'd tell us when it hit (so no pressure).

Fantasy flight Games doesn't have a spotless record for hitting their release targets and I don't doubt they're more interested in Deathwatch splats and errata right now.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just checked out their website and it does say Fall 10, should be here any day then? Unless it has been pushed back?
There was pretty much no info at all on the FFG website, just the small blurb about what the book will contain. I am however really intrigued but this book and it is probably something Im going to have to get my hands on.

It might contain hints on whats to come from GWs Sisters codex and it might also contain allot of other goodies. The "detailed information about the Ecclesiarchys history" I doubt will be anything new. Its already written about pretty extensively in the Sisters of Battle codex as well as the Witch Hunters codex. Will be interesting to know though if they change anything.


----------



## boreas

From B&C's Inache



> Just watched Aaron Dembski-Bowden's BL interview on his blog. His next project after Blood Reaver is going to be Grey Knights, and along with that he mentioned Alan Merrett going through an in development codex during a Horus Heresy meeting and making on going alterations to the fluff.
> 
> Those two tidbits together have me almost giddy especially since some of those Grey Knight rumors point at an expanded look at the chapter and their force organization. Possibly a look into the origins of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights themselves!


----------



## GrizBe

Interesting....


----------



## hungryugolino

Of course, this means we're in for a wait. Come on, just release the troop plastics early...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This is the interview, just past 6min mark he mentions he will be writing a series on the Grey Knights.

Basically what he says is his next book will be the sequel to Soul Hunter and it will be called Blood Reaver, after this he is going to be doing a series on the Grey Knights.
Does this mean more than one book? A 3 book series BL likes to do?


----------



## boreas

He's actually answered on B&C, saying that whatever's told in the interview has nothing to do with the codex. Oh well. Still, it's nice having someone mingling with the community.

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

With DE out of the way, I hope that Harry will start speaking up about the next codex soon. It's been fairly silent/inconsistent for a while now, especially since the Warseer mods had a (bunch of) brain fart(s) and removed the GK thread/Stickmonkey's stuff.


----------



## Azezel

Stickmonkey said he thought that late 2011 would see either Sisters or Black Templars.

It's just occurred to me that, it almost has to be Black Templars. The playable characters of the upcoming 40k MMO are Black Templars and GW would have to be mad not to cash in on that. GW almost has to get a new and shiny BT 'dex on the shelves for the release of the MMO.

I'm not suggesting that GW and Relic(? Whoever is making the game) are co-ordinating. Just that GW aren't idiots (no, they aren't) and will have realised that if Little Timmy ever decides to try the tabletop game, he'll want to collect Black Templars.


----------



## GrizBe

Exactly like so many wanted Blood Ravens when Dawn of War arrived....


----------



## coke123

Well, the templars are about due, but aren't necrons meant to be next after the Knights? and I was thinking that we'd probably see a more even spread of codex releases this year, rather than having everything at the beginning of the year like the Q4 2009/ Q1 2010 40k-a-thon.


----------



## Azezel

Word on the street is Necrons after the Grey Knights. I'm guessing it's BT after the 'crons.

That'd be three codices in 2011, which sounds about right.


----------



## coke123

Hmm, I agree. Although is it too much to think of a fourth 2011 dex? (i.e. one each quarter)? or are you thinking that they'll bring out another supplement and pass that off as a codex?


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Hmm, I agree. Although is it too much to think of a fourth 2011 dex? (i.e. one each quarter)? or are you thinking that they'll bring out another supplement and pass that off as a codex?


I think that, considering GW's apparent recent change of method if FAQs, as in, leaving plenty of room (and basically promising) to update rules, 3 codices is plenty!


----------



## Azezel

They might just squeeze Tau in at the end there, but at this stage that's pure speculation.

Are you going to start a 'cron thread, MadCowCrazy? Not that I'm on the edge of my seat over them, but I am interested in the state of play.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Tau as well?
just how frickin optimistic are you?
and seeing as you are an optimist you clearly have the wrong hobby 

If they accelerate the codexes as planned (GW often do plans in the same way that fish do gymnastics) without immediate new models it's almost possible


I believe BT are almost done but I think they are going to be a floating release to be brought out in case of any late problems (and it sounds quite likely) <--- not GK


----------



## Azezel

I doubt there'll be four codices next year - I was just saying it's not impossible. My money's on GK, 'crons and then Black Templars in 2011, then Tau, Sisters, 6e in 2012.

The fact that I put Sisters almost two years away and right before 6e, invalidating half their rules shows you where I sit on the sliding scale of optimism/pessimism.

I have however, been wrong before.


----------



## boreas

I wouldn't mind that LR Achilles in the GK dex!

I just saw that it's not availble for GKs now, so that doesn't look well for it being in the next codex. Man, I can't wait for "don't kick the Inquisition" month sometimes next year. Maybe we'll get some love then! 

Oh well, another 58 pounds to give to someone else that GW... 

Phil


----------



## Tuatara

boreas said:


> I wouldn't mind that LR Achilles in the GK dex!
> 
> Phil


A question on that. FW released the GK LR Redeemer and a GK Dread. Are you allowed to use them in regular 40K games or only in apocalypse? Or any models for that matter. Like this new Achilles, who is allowed to use them? I would hate to buy one, only to be told "No".


----------



## boreas

Seem not, a few "select" SM chapters+ vanilla marines... 

Phil


----------



## equitypetey

Tuatara said:


> A question on that. FW released the GK LR Redeemer and a GK Dread. Are you allowed to use them in regular 40K games or only in apocalypse? Or any models for that matter. Like this new Achilles, who is allowed to use them? I would hate to buy one, only to be told "No".


all depends on who you play i'm allowed to play my GK redeemer in normal games. it always ends up in my army list, not sure what i'd do without it.

and GK dread? it's in our codex already! only thing that isn't is the psycannon choice


----------



## Azezel

StraightSilver has posted some more from talking with Jes Goodwin.



StraightSilver said:


> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so Eldar is a possibility.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.





StraightSilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.


----------



## Winterous

Wait, that's talking about sculpting more stuff, right?
But they have the rapid prototyping thing, meaning they do all the 'sculpting' on computer.
Isn't that how it works now?


----------



## Azezel

It's still called sculpting.

Besides which - there is still a place for old-fashioned physical-object sculpting in modern 3d CAD.

The wondrful thing is, both methods work together very well. You can draft a virtual object in a computer, 3d-print it and tinker with it in meatspace, or you can sculpt an object the old-fashioned way, 3d-scan it and tinker with it virtually.

Very likely both happen many times during the creation of a modern model. It's all still 'sculpting'.


----------



## Winterous

Man, that system must be fucking expensive, but totally worth it!


----------



## coke123

I'm interested too see two things in there- 

a) This guy thinks Tau will be before Necrons. I find that very suprising, even if his logic does make sense

b) Something about the flyers expansion- I got the impression that was pretty much flat-out wishlisting? I kinda hope it doesn't happen, because if it's anything like spearhead then it'll be a total waste of time.

And as for the mention of Craftworld Eldar, I'd be a little annoyed if they got released before say SoB, Necrons, Tau, or even dark angels- they don't really need it. All I'd want to see is new jetbike models, and maybe improved phoenix lords, but half of that doesn't require a new codex and the other is far from necessary. Oh, and improved fast attack.


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> And as for the mention of Craftworld Eldar, I'd be a little annoyed if they got released before say SoB, Necrons, Tau, or even dark angels-


eldar haven't even been started whereas 3 of those mentioned have, 
I wouldn't worry about it, 
it's just that doing dark eldar has fired up the tastebuds of some to do them



Just read through that mesage from straightsilver and I have to say i'm unconvinced, there are an awful lot of red flags and the sculpting problems have been known for 2ish months now


----------



## Irbian

the flying expansion actually makes sense. with the next expansions, the needed models and the current way of gw of making things, it actually fits well


----------



## Yllib Enaz

coke123 said:


> b) Something about the flyers expansion- I got the impression that was pretty much flat-out wishlisting? I kinda hope it doesn't happen, because if it's anything like spearhead then it'll be a total waste of time.


Oh no it wasnt, if nothing else we got the release of a couple of plastic kits out of it.


----------



## coke123

They didn't need to do spearhead along with those releases- They could have given us the new fire prism and IG tanks and been done with it. So if anything, we got spearhead out of those plastic box releases, rather than other way round.


----------



## Kettu

So sorry, but something really isn't making any sense here.
The Sisters of Battle have been in 'development hell' for four or five years and only now have they resolved the issues that were preventing development and thus the Sisters will not be updated for another two years or more.
And yet, they had all their stock, *all* of it, yanked from sale and their dex oop'd more or less start of this year due to their 'imminent' update.

So... _Not_ selling anything for 3+ years is how you update an army now?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

It is kinda fucked up, but as I see it there is a certain logic. Supply and demand. Cut off the supply and the demand will increase, people will bitch and moan for a while and then, BLAM. You get to spend a shitload of money on GW stuff as it was not available for quite some time.


----------



## Kettu

Hey, just found this neat little teaser from lurking in the FFG forums.


----------



## Azezel

Aye, there's the rub...

No matter how you slice it, the disapearance of the Sisters' boxes looks wrong.

GK boxes were pulled a _full year_ ahead of what we now believe to be their new 'dex. A long old time

Sisters boxes were pulled at the same time and, if current projections hold true, that's two to two and a half years ahead of their new 'dex! Although to be fair - I don't think GW ever mentioned an update for the Sisters, imminent or otherwise, we just assumed when everything went oop/blisters.

GW aren't stupid. They had a reason and it certainly seemed like a good one (or the best of a lot of bad ones) to them, but what it is...

At least the discontinuation of the dead-tree 'dex is easy enough to guess at. They simply ran out of them and it wasn't economical to do another print run.

Metal models are ideal for small-scale production, so even if GW had sold every sister and GK they had they shouldn't truely go OOP so long as the original moulds are still servicable - and that's the only thing I can think of.

Most Sisters moulds are vintage '96 and it's conceivable that they have deteriorated to the point where new castings are chancy. So GW put the lot in blisters to conserve what stock they have and ensure the army is never utterly unavailable.

EDIT - Well spotted, Kettu, +rep.


----------



## mahavira

OIIIIIIO said:


> It is kinda fucked up, but as I see it there is a certain logic. Supply and demand. Cut off the supply and the demand will increase, people will bitch and moan for a while and then, BLAM. You get to spend a shitload of money on GW stuff as it was not available for quite some time.


Or you kill all interest altogether and nobody buys much of anything when the new models come out. Dark eldar may not have been updated for a long time, but you could always buy the entire line, right up to 2 months before the new release (I expect some independent retailers were livid over this).



Azezel said:


> Aye, there's the rub...
> 
> No matter how you slice it, the disapearance of the Sisters' boxes looks wrong.
> 
> GK boxes were pulled a _full year_ ahead of what we now believe to be their new 'dex. A long old time
> 
> Sisters boxes were pulled at the same time and, if current projections hold true, that's two to two and a half years ahead of their new 'dex! Although to be fair - I don't think GW ever mentioned an update for the Sisters, imminent or otherwise, we just assumed when everything went oop/blisters.
> 
> GW aren't stupid. They had a reason and it certainly seemed like a good one (or the best of a lot of bad ones) to them, but what it is...
> 
> At least the discontinuation of the dead-tree 'dex is easy enough to guess at. They simply ran out of them and it wasn't economical to do another print run.
> 
> Metal models are ideal for small-scale production, so even if GW had sold every sister and GK they had they shouldn't truely go OOP so long as the original moulds are still servicable - and that's the only thing I can think of.
> 
> Most Sisters moulds are vintage '96 and it's conceivable that they have deteriorated to the point where new castings are chancy. So GW put the lot in blisters to conserve what stock they have and ensure the army is never utterly unavailable.
> 
> EDIT - Well spotted, Kettu, +rep.


As an army, battle sisters have been rendered unstartable without a stupendous amount of cash (at least GK is a low model count army). With no new armies being started except by eccentric millionaires, their only sales will be to existing players, who by this point probably have enough that buying blisters of 3 isn't really worth the bother. As more and more armies get 5E codices, the existing WH codex becomes less and less competitive and more players will start retiring their SoB armies choking demand off even further. If they don't want to squat SoB they've chosen a very odd way of going about it.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> They might just squeeze Tau in at the end there, but at this stage that's pure speculation.
> 
> Are you going to start a 'cron thread, MadCowCrazy? Not that I'm on the edge of my seat over them, but I am interested in the state of play.


Im going to wait until December before I put it up, in the hopes we will get some more rumours before then. I do believe Necrons will be after GKs but I guess Tau are also somewhat plausible. Might have to do a joint Necron/Tau thread to start with like GK/SoB/Inquisition.

Once GK are out this thread will be moved to rumour round ups and I will start a new one focusing on Sisters of Battle even though we might not see them for another 1-2 years.


----------



## coke123

So is the Necron thread replacing the Dark Eldar one?


----------



## GrizBe

I don't see the point in a Necron thread when the entirity of their rumours are:

Models being redone with a move towards more organic looking.
Several units to be resculpted bigger. IE, immortals.
Possible new MC in codex.


----------



## coke123

How is that any less than anything else we've heard bar inquisition, which already have a rumour thread?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> So is the Necron thread replacing the Dark Eldar one?


Yupp



GrizBe said:


> I don't see the point in a Necron thread when the entirity of their rumours are:
> 
> Models being redone with a move towards more organic looking.
> Several units to be resculpted bigger. IE, immortals.
> Possible new MC in codex.


The idea is to always have 2 rumours threads on what might be up and coming next. I agree there aren't that much in the form of rumours at the moment but Im sure there will be more coming in the next few months.
This is why I might as well do a joint Necron/Tau one. There has been no new rumours for a very long time and Im sure most of everyone has already read the ones out there.

This is why Im going to wait for Dec before I post the new rumours thread.


----------



## coke123

I just got a newsletter from GW saying that blood angel's 2nd wave is coming in february. does anyone think that this could be done alongside a GK release, or does it look like we're being pushed back to March?


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I just got a newsletter from GW saying that blood angel's 2nd wave is coming in february. does anyone think that this could be done alongside a GK release, or does it look like we're being pushed back to March?


Already made a thread about it


----------



## coke123

Yeah, but I'm not terribly interested in Blood Angels themselves, only their effect on the Grey Knights release. Is there any reason to think that this new info doesn't preclude GK from being released in February?


----------



## Irbian

frgt/10 told:

confirmation of what we already knew:
3 plastic kits:

Stormraven
Furioso dreadnought
Battleforce


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Pretty much as was expected. I dont think GK will be in Feb or March, April at the soonest Id say.
From what the rumours say Fantasy Orks N Goblins will be in March.

Then again the Blood Angels release is pretty small so they could squeeze in the GKs at the same time.


----------



## Irbian

In that case they had say something about that in the last incoming.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Agree, if there are metal kits and models as well there is no chance for GKs in Feb. So I would say we are looking at April at the soonest for GKs now.

If April is indeed their launch month then I see a max of 2 other codicies released next, Necrons and probably Black Templars.


----------



## Irbian

How sure we are about O&G in march? Could be a swap between GK and O&G?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You mean GW would do BA 2nd wave in Feb and GK in March? 2 40k releases after each other? Not gonna happen...


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> You mean GW would do BA 2nd wave in Feb and GK in March? 2 40k releases after each other? Not gonna happen...


I believe there is precedence of this with waves and then a full release in fantasy and 40k although it's rare (i'm sure someone pointed this out on heresy recently).

The move away from large scale releases and into wave releases may well throw up a few odd things while the different procedures are being changed over and I wouldn't bet against any surprising release patterns over the next 18 months - 2 years


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> You mean GW would do BA 2nd wave in Feb and GK in March? 2 40k releases after each other? Not gonna happen...


Unlikely, but hardly out of the question. They've done so much with fantasy this year that they might be able to justify it. Also, the blood angels release is rather small, so it's not like there are two codex releases in between directly next two each other.

Although you're probably right about them being pushed back to April. Right around the time of my mid-semester exams, too. Joy...


----------



## Irbian

I was talking more about feb - BA, mar - GK, apr - O&G, with GK and O&G, swapping slots

But Bindi Baji has pointed another good possibility.


----------



## fynn

they may do a back to back release of BA and gk, especialy if the stormraven includes GK parts, but a sure fire way to increase sale of that brick for a period of 2 months, feb, all the BA players buy it, then march, GK players start buying it along with new GK toys and codex.
personaly, i would prefer a early release, that way gives me a bit of time to get 1750 pts of of models done for a tourny in may. if they dont come out till April, then i probaly wont be alble to use em in the tourny (a codex needs to be out for a least a month to be used in the tourny)


----------



## thisisaguard111

damn the blood angels rumor is true!!!!


----------



## Winterous

thisisaguard111 said:


> damn the blood angels rumor is true!!!!


Um, which one?


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Um, which one?


As it turns out, every single one that interferes with the GK release. Just to spite us .


----------



## Tuatara

coke123 said:


> As it turns out, every single one that interferes with the GK release. Just to spite us .


And that just makes my blood boil.






How ironic.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Come on December and the next newsletter, hopefully it will contain whats to come in March!


----------



## Otep

i found a unofficial copy of the new inquisition codex


----------



## Necrosis

Otep said:


> i found a unofficial copy of the new inquisition codex


Can you provide a link?


----------



## Otep

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36162852/Inquisition 
sha zam!


----------



## Necrosis

That Codex has been around for a long time and isn't even finished.


----------



## Otep

lol go figure, i was trying to find a recent update for my buddy's black templar and i found that... oh well


----------



## GrizBe

Oh look... the fan dex again... which has an entire page in it explaining that its a fan made codex and completely unofficial


----------



## coke123

At least it serves as a perfect example of why a combined inquisition should not and will not happen- it's too friggin' long!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I linked this codex a few months ago, I remember us comparing some of the unit stats to those of some tournament ppl who made a custom codex (where as they have been accurate before because of insider info or some such).

All in all I think the codex is a mess, simply too much in it. Would be cool but very confusing for someone who've never read it.
WTF? Ur allowed to take Orks, SM, Tau, IG and Eldar in the same army? WTF?


----------



## Chapter: Limp Bizkit

LOL! it looks like a land raider with wings!


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> All in all I think the codex is a mess, simply too much in it. Would be cool but very confusing for someone who've never read it.
> WTF? Ur allowed to take Orks, SM, Tau, IG and Eldar in the same army? WTF?


At least it doesn't let you take High Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen and ogres too. and i have the feeling that the author would have done this if he could.

I was supportive of a combined 'dex until I saw this and realised what a horrendous mish-mash it would have to be in order to do each ordo justice.


----------



## Bindi Baji

coke123 said:


> At least it doesn't let you take High Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen and ogres too.


although version 2.1 included Inquisitorial Squat Troopers, Drunken Zoats and Cyber Ambulls


----------



## Coyote77

Got this on BoLS from Bigred



> i there folks, its time for yet another roundup of what's been floating around out there regarding the upcoming Grey Knights. Here's what we have heard:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Further reinforcement of this being a Grey Knight/Inquisition book. Almost all the chatter has died down regarding inducted IG, and allied Space Marines. This is fundamentally said to be an Astartes book with some flavoring added in.
> 
> 2) Lots of talk of the book containing all Grey Knights units with only Imperial Assassins and Inquisitors w/retinues as choices not hailing from Titan.
> 
> 3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.
> 
> 4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing. Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites. These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).
> 
> 5) Lots of all new psychic powers all around, including Grey Knight Vehicles who are said to be difficult to stop.
> 
> 6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.
> 
> 7) LOTS of new independent characters, and tons of new Grey Knight fluff.
> 
> 8) Continued chatter of both GK Terminators and powered armored versions as troops.
> 
> 9) Talk places this codex at the new extreme of "elite" armies, in the 40k metagame diametrically opposed to horde type play.
> 
> 10) Talk still points to March 2011 for this one.


Mostly I've been lurking but I have had great interest to making my 2nd army GK so i figured its about time to contribute.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm still not believe there being no IST... but appart from that I'm liking what I'm hearing if thats all true.

Deamonhosts and Death Cult Assasins as retinue seems kinda stupid so I'll pour salt on that too... but lots of new characters, lots more fluff and units etc? Roll on March.


----------



## Mathai

I dunno. Being able to add those type of characters into an actual group would be nice I think. My biggest problem with DEath CUlt has always been how easy it was to single them out in games. In a retinue means to me that there is at least one more reason that making a melee oriented Inquisitorial retinue might be plausible now.


----------



## Irbian

dont know, maybe there are IST but like in the archon retinue

0-9 IST
0-3 daemonhost
etc...

About other thing, have you seen this conversion? http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=198837 is not only good, but suspiciously accurate XD anybody knows the owner? Maybe he has some info


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nah, it has always been said the SR looks like a small Thunderhawk similar to a Landraider mixed with a Valkyrie. That is exactly what you get when you mix a LR and a Valkyrie.
This is why I was not surprised at all about what the SR looks like.


----------



## GrizBe

If anything, that conversion shows how with a different paintjob, and a little tweaking and a different picture angle, the SR can look a hell of alot better then the one image we have of it so far.


----------



## soulreaver296

bloodofkittens.com are posting new rumors tomorrow, and they expect these to be as accurate as their DE rumors (which they said were 90% on). We'll see if there's anything new or changed.


----------



## coke123

aye, the only major difference I'm seeing between this and the leaked picture is the removal of both that silly air intake on top and the 'volkswagon beetle turret'.


----------



## Azezel

soulreaver296 said:


> bloodofkittens.com are posting new rumors tomorrow, and they expect these to be as accurate as their DE rumors (which they said were 90% on). We'll see if there's anything new or changed.


I've not heard of Blood of Kittens before, but from a quick read through of the post in question, they are all but illiterate. You'll excuse me if I don't instantly believe whatever they say tomorrow.


----------



## soulreaver296

Oh, no worries. Plenty of salt on standby here. Even then, I don't think they'll have anything that is gonna be shocking or really in depth anyway. Just general things that we could already guess (EXPANDED FAST ATTACK!!!! MORE SPECIAL CHARACTERS!!!)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> You'll excuse me if I don't instantly believe whatever they say tomorrow.


/Gluttony slaps Azezel about the head with a giant slug!
Yu want us starvin fur rumoorz like we'z has theze pass feww weekz?!

Blood of Kittens has been pretty accurate in the past but lets just wait to see what they have to say. Probably a whole lot but with one or two new things we did not "know" about before.
I'm really looking forwards to it, but as always with hype building they better have something good for us.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Blood of Kittens has been pretty accurate in the past but lets just wait to see what they have to say.


Yeah, at the very least Blood of Kittens has a better track record than StickMonkey when it comes to accuracy. Really looking forward; at the very least it'll make for an interesting read, what with the recent dearth of news.

Edit:



Blood of Kittens said:


> The GK will play completely different from any Marine dex before. This is going to be the elite army of elite armies you can run a 2000 point army with as little as 20 models and still have a good chance of winning games. Now on to the leaks!
> 
> *Here is some clarification of the big rumors that have been floated around the Internet concerning the GK codex.*
> 
> 1. GK codex WILL NOT have inducted units. Allies are effectively gone!
> 
> 2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.
> 
> 3. GK and GKT have plastic kits and will be troop choices.
> 
> 4. Release Date is March-May window.
> 
> 5. The Stormraven is in (duh) and along with Penitent Engines are currently the only two Fast Attacks slots in the dex.
> 
> 6. Look for HQs changing the FoC around
> 
> 7. GW will not take away your toys meaning if you bought 50 Imperial Storm Troopers they will have a place in the GK codex
> 
> 8. Assassins are in as an Elite slot and any type of GK army can take them.
> 
> *Let us start with the mundane stuff*
> 
> GKs are Space Marines they do not have Fearless or Stubborn they have Combat Tactics and They Shall Know No Fear
> 
> GKs only vehicles options are Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Chimera and Stormraven. All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned. Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport.
> 
> GKs do not get Bikes, Jump Packs, or Chaplains
> 
> All GKs are psyker and their powers act very much in the same way as Psyker Battle Squad.
> 
> GKs will not have access to most Vanilla Marine Gear especially Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons (No Melta Spamming)
> 
> *Let us get down to some specifics*
> 
> Brother-Captain Stern has Eternal Warrior and his attacks can remove models from play.
> 
> The Grand Master gives out special abilities to GK units (Not USRs) We are talking weapon upgrades and minor wargear bonuses.
> 
> All GKs cause Deep Striking units to mishap if placed within 6 inches of any Grey Knight unit.
> 
> All GKs Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons and no longer Str 6.
> 
> Unlike the Archon’s court from the Dark Eldar Codex Henchman + Witchhunter rejects are Elite slots. These Squads can be mixed and have many options. For instance the Warrior can get Storm Shields and power weapon. Henchman act more like Beast Master Squads than the Archon’s Court.
> 
> Henchman include everything Daemonhosts, Death-Cult Assassins, Argo flagellants, Priests, Stormtroopers, Warriors
> 
> Holocaust is now 12 inch large blast
> 
> Mystic is now only a teleport homer
> 
> All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned (Sacred Hull). Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport. All GK vehicles are psykers with LD 10
> 
> Blessed is now a vehicle psychic power that picks one facing and raises the AV by 2 to a max of 14
> 
> GKs have access to GK Command Squads giving them access to Apothecaries (FNP)
> 
> Vindicare has unlimited ammo for all special shots.
> 
> *Okie guys this does it for Part 1 of Grey Knight rumors. Everyone still has time to join the Grey Knight rumor group by registering with BoK. Come back in about 10 hours when the second wave of leaks are spilled for your enjoyment found only on the Blood of Kittens Network.*


----------



## Khorothis

"Blessed is now a vehicle psychic power that picks one facing and raises the AV by 2 to a max of 14".

I hope this doesn't mean that I can bump the rear armour of a Rhino up to 12 so unless you have a PF or you're a MC you can't touch it in close combat. I hope they stick to the word "facing", so even if its rear armour it will only mean ranged attacks from that direction.

Also, Empra Possession, hurpdurp. Hope that means that a bare-bones Rhino costs 60 points. Though if they cast spells too then it sucks to be you because your cheapest transport will be 100 pts MINIMUM. Though we're talking about Space Marines here, the BESTEST of them all in fact, so they might get away with 60 point Rhinos with Empra Possession, Doombolt, and +2AV on any one side for one turn. Oh and STORM SHIELDS, STORM SHIELDS EVERYWHERE.

Though if the GKs bump into a Space Wolf army with four Rune Priests they're boned. Though GW might make a rule that one psychic power can only be blocked once and if that didn't work you can't have your four Rune Priests mentally gangbang that one poor psyker.

Makes you wonder if 6th ed will introduce a magic phase.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.

I find this part *EXTREMELY* hard to believe, why would the GK codex feature Ecclesiarchy units? Especially some of my favourite ones!

I'm not even sure how you could justify it from a fluff perspective, though if it is true that the codex will feature all Ordos then maybe they could justify it somehow as a Ordo Hereticus related unit.
There has been talk about the GKs getting some unique walker that looks like a Penitent Engine or the APU from the matrix but come on, I thought the GKs codex was more on the puritan side this time around and Penitent Engines are heretics.

It just doesn't seem plausible at all, it's just so.....so....UNPLAUSIBLE!!


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.
> 
> I find this part *EXTREMELY* hard to believe, why would the GK codex feature Ecclesiarchy units? Especially some of my favourite ones!
> 
> I'm not even sure how you could justify it from a fluff perspective, though if it is true that the codex will feature all Ordos then maybe they could justify it somehow as a Ordo Hereticus related unit.
> There has been talk about the GKs getting some unique walker that looks like a Penitent Engine or the APU from the matrix but come on, I thought the GKs codex was more on the puritan side this time around and Penitent Engines are heretics.
> 
> It just doesn't seem plausible at all, it's just so.....so....UNPLAUSIBLE!!


This. Plus all NFW are force weapons? That's too much. And the mention of no Chaplains. Another thing that jumps at me is that this says they'll have combat tactics. Why on earth would you give this to a force that is meant to be based around 5-7 man squads? unless you wanted to save points on justicars... the local slug population is breathing a sigh of relief, now that my salt supplies are so depleted.


----------



## Azezel

Was any source given by Blood of Kittens for these rumours?


----------



## Winterous

"This is going to be the elite army of elite armies you can run a 2000 point army with as little as 20 models and still have a good chance of winning games."

I LIKE THE SOUND OF THAT!

But man, Nids are going to absolutely abhor this codex :S
RAWR I R TRYGON OF FUCK GK RUN!


----------



## KingOfCheese

Interesting....

Will this make the current Daemon-hunters codex illegal after the release? (assuming so)
What is happening with the Witch Hunters?
Is their codex still legal?
Are they getting a new one?

Got a tournament in June and it may make things a little confusing....


----------



## Winterous

KingOfCheese said:


> Interesting....
> 
> Will this make the current Daemon-hunters codex illegal after the release? (assuming so)
> What is happening with the Witch Hunters?
> Is their codex still legal?
> Are they getting a new one?
> 
> Got a tournament in June and it may make things a little confusing....


Yes, it will be illegal.
But tournaments set shortly after the release may still disallow it, since it's not been long enough out to be effectively examined and used properly.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.
> 
> I find this part *EXTREMELY* hard to believe, why would the GK codex feature Ecclesiarchy units? Especially some of my favourite ones!
> 
> I'm not even sure how you could justify it from a fluff perspective, though if it is true that the codex will feature all Ordos then maybe they could justify it somehow as a Ordo Hereticus related unit.
> There has been talk about the GKs getting some unique walker that looks like a Penitent Engine or the APU from the matrix but come on, I thought the GKs codex was more on the puritan side this time around and Penitent Engines are heretics.
> 
> It just doesn't seem plausible at all, it's just so.....so....UNPLAUSIBLE!!


These rumors mesh extremely well with those from Bigred, and Bigred said that the Inquisition part of the book would cover the whole organization, not just the Ordo Malleus. If that's the case, these units make sense. Personally I would have preferred these ugly things stayed with the Sisters.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Winterous said:


> Yes, it will be illegal.


Including Witch Hunters?


----------



## GrizBe

Blood Of Kittens seems to me more of a rumour collector then an actual source. Pretty much everything said there has already been confirmed by known reliable sources, like Stickmonkey or Big Red. Theres not anything new really, and as pointed out, some of the things are complete bull...

I appologise to teh UK for leaving you snowbound with having to dump so much salt on this.


----------



## soulreaver296

Losing fearless and S6? only storm raven and a _penitent engine_ as fast attack? the fact there may BE a penitent engine, along with the rest of the freakshow? along with half of the other stuff...

someone remove the salt from the oceans... we're gonna need it.


----------



## GrizBe

Already got the desalinazation plant running overtime.


----------



## Khorothis

Carthage comes to mind...

You know, if MadCow is raging this much over some rumours or news you can be sure its bullshit and rest easy that its not going to happen. Save your salt, gents, 'till the Tau Codex's rumours start appearing. Just a hunch.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It is true that GKs have been rumoured to get a new walker that looks like the PE or APU from the matrix but giving them PE does not make sense.

Penitent Engines, Arco Flagellants and Sisters Repentia all stem from the same source and are all "criminals" in spirit or action.

Sisters Repentia are sisters who have somehow fallen short of the sisterhoods rigorous codes. They seek to redeem themselves through death in battle but in rare cases (like St Celestine) may receive the emperors blessing giving them absolution for their "crimes".

Arco Flagellants were all once criminals or heretics in one way or another. They are turned into pretty much mindless killing machines that trigger once a code phrase or word is spoken. They feel no pain and have no self preservation instincts at all.

Penitent Engine pilots are criminals who's crimes are so bad that Arco Flagellation is not enough. These heretics are driven mad in the need for forgiveness. They rush into battle as only in death can forgiveness be granted.

All 3 are basically suicide squads, all 3 are criminals in one way or another, 1 is made up pure of Sisters of Battle who have fallen from grace and the 2 other are criminals or heretics brought to justice by the Ecclesiarchy and their chamber militant the Adepta Sororitas. None of them have any direct ties to Ordo Hereticus though criminals who have been arco flagellised may be given to Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors to do with as they please.

If the BoK rumours are true the codex will contain GK, IGish units, Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Xeno and Ecclesiarchy units.

Does this mean you can take a priest as a HQ to allow you to field Arcos and PEs? or will they have the current rule were you can put one in anywhere basically and that allows you to field them?

If all this is true what will be in codex SoB? Does this mean the codex will be 100% pure Sisters of Battle? or will there be a Ecclesiarchy part similar to that in codex GKs?

I do however like PE in the fast attack slot, I would give PE and Repentia the scout rule as they are the first into battle rushing ahead of everyone else trying to redeem themselves.
Heck the current PE could be somewhat justified for their points cost if they had the scout rule allowing them to outflank.

In some ways all this does make sense though, GW will obviously be trying to milk the cashcow as much as they can and giving Ecclesiarchy units to both GK and SoB to increase sales does make sense. If its true a 2000 pt army can be just 20 models then the kits will either be expensive as hell or they will add kits that multiple armies can use and pretty much only have the PAGK and TAGK as unique for the codex. Same could be said for the sisters only getting the Sisters and upgrade sprues for their 3 tank variants.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Khorothis said:


> Carthage comes to mind...
> 
> You know, if MadCow is raging this much over some rumours or news you can be sure its bullshit and rest easy that its not going to happen. Save your salt, gents, 'till the Tau Codex's rumours start appearing. Just a hunch.


Im trying to find a logical fluff reason for this and there really isnt one since all the Ordos think of each other as heretics and the Ecclesiarchy thinks pretty much everyone is a heretic. So why would any Ordo go to the Ecclesiarchy and ask for help?

There must be something Im not seeing, if all the Ordos are represented then maybe they could make up (like any of it was true to begin with:crazy some fluff about Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy suddenly being all kiss kiss love love.

The only reason I can think of is GW wanting to sell more kits, I could agree with the Arco and Priests but not Penitent Engines unless you could field a high ranking member of the Ecclesiarchy or their chamber militant.


----------



## GrizBe

My only guess about the Penitant engine, is that it isn't the penitant engine, but the rumoured GK walker unit the looks like one.

Its logical that the actual frame could be addapted into a walker if the user is conected to it freely rather then as punishment... sooo its not a huge stretch to assume its just a courruption of a rumour thats already there.

As for flagelants... they're criminals, think the same reasoning as having penial legions. They're easy to bump off and kill afterwards if courrupted by chaos.

That said, as pointed out... theres really no logic behind having Ecclesiarchy units in a Hereticus army.


----------



## Katie Drake

Despite all your reasoning MadCow, remember that GW has and frequently uses the power to change background to fit their more modern ideas. It's entirely possibly that Arco-Flagellants, Penitent-Engines and so on could be repacked, given new names and some new fluff and passed off as something completely different.


----------



## coke123

Khorothis said:


> Carthage comes to mind...





GrizBe said:


> Already got the desalinazation plant running overtime.





soulreaver296 said:


> someone remove the salt from the oceans... we're gonna need it.





GrizBe said:


> I appologise to teh UK for leaving you snowbound with having to dump so much salt on this.


Hehehe, should start a database of salt based puns for occasions such as this.

Back on topic, I don't think that we'll see ecclesiarchy with the GK. They've been goin on for months about how this is a proper GK 'dex with a smattering of inquisition, this is just so contradictory of everything we've already heard.

EDIT: Although I must say that I'm very glad for any kind of rumours, regardless of how outlandish they may seem.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Well this all sounds as plausible as the plot for X-Men 3


----------



## Creon

Oddly enough I think "All GK units are Psychers" is just asking for a Crucible of Malediction to wipe the entire army off the board in one turn, causing DE players to laugh and laugh and laugh!

All rumours seem plausible, other than the FW/all, I just don't see that. It might encourage a GK army for me, from all these leftover marines I have.


----------



## boreas

And here I was, hoping for some real rumors. Sad... Sad... Sad... I read the first few going ok... maybe... but then it got as real as fitting 10 marine models in a rhino.

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> Well this all sounds as plausible as the plot for X-Men 3


You want something that's as plausible as GKs getting Ecclesiarchy units?
Then how about THIS!
This is the early version of Sisters Repentia, was deemed too over powered so they gave them those silly butter knives instead.


----------



## Winterous

Just a thought on the Penitent Engine thing.
Perhaps it could be the same design adapted for use specifically by the Grey Knights.
When a Grey Knight brother is touched by Daemonic corruption in some way, but manages to keep control of himself completely, they offer him redemption in battle rather than execution; wiring him up to what is basically a Penitent Engine, and sending him into a glorious frenzy in one last engagement.


----------



## GrizBe

Except that its long establish fluff fact that not a single GK has ever fallen to chaos...

I'm still gonna go for the, if its true, option of it being an exoskltal walker that looks like the PE rather then a PE.


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> Except that its long establish fluff fact that not a single GK has ever fallen to chaos...
> 
> I'm still gonna go for the, if its true, option of it being an exoskltal walker that looks like the PE rather then a PE.


Fallen to chaos meaning turned heretic, or having been possessed at all?
If the former, then I imagine that's because they'd execute anyone who WAS touched by Chaos.
If the latter, fair enough.


----------



## equitypetey

i hope some of these rumours are bull because if so my much loved gk's will suck, losing fearless and +2 strength pffff might as will not be grey knights. 

codex: nothing more then a bunch of shiny marines. here we come!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> I'm still gonna go for the, if its true, option of it being an exoskltal walker that looks like the PE rather then a PE.


Im going to say this is the most likely scenario, question is if they will include the parts to make the PE or just the parts to make the GK version?
Would it make sense to release a new box for the Sisters of Battle with just another sprue in it seeing how GW are trying to create kits more and more armies can use.


----------



## Logyn

Well, Cruddance *did* write the codex, and after what he did to Tyranids, I wouldn't be surprised...

I'm hoping that most of these rumors are completely off base. Things like the loss of Fearless and the everything-has-a-force-weapon at s4 shtick would really suck. I'm not even talking about power-level in gaming terms. I'm talking about the spirit of the army, the idea of a small force of super-badasses, even by marine standards, that can go toe-to-toe with anything.

Sounds like a load of crock to me, ESPECIALLY the vehicle psychic powers, and I don't even want to consider why Hereticus units that have NOTHING to do with GK's at all would be in the codex. I guess we'll have to wait and see, though. If these turn out to be true, Cruddance will officially have pissed all over my two favorite 40k armies. I finally made peace with the new nid dex. I would never make peace with this.


----------



## Creon

Perhaps it's the return of "Everything gets Power of the Machine Spirit". I could see THAT, as the GK do have the best of everything!


----------



## GrizBe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Im going to say this is the most likely scenario, question is if they will include the parts to make the PE or just the parts to make the GK version?
> Would it make sense to release a new box for the Sisters of Battle with just another sprue in it seeing how GW are trying to create kits more and more armies can use.


Logically, assuming it is the Exo-walker based on a PE frame, pretty much you just change the pilot to a GK, add a cage around him, rather then being strapped in... couple of armor plates and GK icons, and Bingo. 

As for vehicles having psychic powers, that has a certain logic too. All GK's are psykers, and if the vehicles hve GK pilots, theres your vehicles with psychic powers.


----------



## LordWaffles

Blood of Kittens said:


> 1. GK codex WILL NOT have inducted units. Allies are effectively gone!


A shame I was really hoping to take units out of the guard codex so I could be cheese.



Blood of Kittens said:


> 2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.


Why the fuck would grey knights(PARAGONS of religious faith) need a priest to tell them shit they already know.
That's like a council of physicists being helped along by a gradeschool math teacher.
"As I contemplated the metaphysical portions of this spacemath I TOOOTALLY forgot how to add! Thanks kindergarten teacher!"


Blood of Kittens said:


> 3. GK and GKT have plastic kits and will be troop choices.


If the terminators don't get storm shields they will not sell a single one. See dark angel tears.


Blood of Kittens said:


> 4. Release Date is March-May window.


I don't think they are writing the codex very quickly.


Blood of Kittens said:


> 5. The Stormraven is in (duh) and along with Penitent Engines are currently the only two Fast Attacks slots in the dex.


HERPDERP PENITENT ENGINE.
Oh and we get flying cars, neat. Does it outclass a vendetta? If not, it's garbage.


Blood of Kittens said:


> GKs are Space Marines they do not have Fearless or Stubborn they have Combat Tactics and They Shall Know No Fear


ATSKNF is better then both fearless or stubborn so who cares. But why the blue fuck would they have combat tactics? So I can break my elite squads into two and three man teams? Horseshit.


Blood of Kittens said:


> GKs only vehicles options are Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Chimera and Stormraven. All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned. Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport.


This is kinda neat. Being able to have all daemonically possessed vehicles is a very neat contribution, but the grey knights better have some amazing bling to make up for being a bajillion points and not carrying a single meltagun in the army. I think razorbacks might be mandatory but if they're not cheaper then the wolf ones this army is already a flop.


Blood of Kittens said:


> GKs do not get Bikes, Jump Packs, or Chaplains


So we buy cars or have no movement. Neat.


Blood of Kittens said:


> GKs will not have access to most Vanilla Marine Gear especially Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons (No Melta Spamming)


This is incredibly important as it means we probably won't be getting storm shields. Or any other variant land raiders. Or any of the other good shit. Thanks matt ward.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Brother-Captain Stern has Eternal Warrior and his attacks can remove models from play.


He is now playable. Good job gw.


Blood of Kittens said:


> The Grand Master gives out special abilities to GK units (Not USRs) We are talking weapon upgrades and minor wargear bonuses.


Vaguety vague vague. "I herd the gery knights havs wargars"


Blood of Kittens said:


> All GKs cause Deep Striking units to mishap if placed within 6 inches of any Grey Knight unit.


Suck a dick, demons, nids, podmarines.


Blood of Kittens said:


> All GKs Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons and no longer Str 6.


At first this sucks donkey dick. Why would I ever take an eighty point terminator with a 5++ "Dont plasma me bro" save when he's s4?
Second point, if standard infantry get force weapons they might stand a chance against nids. Still, wounding on sixes is doodoo. s4 force weapons=not pro.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Henchman include everything Daemonhosts, Death-Cult Assassins, Argo flagellants, Priests, Stormtroopers, Warriors


In short, these are your triple melta vets.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Holocaust is now 12 inch large blast


That is HUEG. But it'll probably be s4 ap4 or something trashy that wont pop cars.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Mystic is now only a teleport homer


Thank god.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Blessed is now a vehicle psychic power that picks one facing and raises the AV by 2 to a max of 14


Triple melta still aces the car and chainfist lonewolves dont care.


Blood of Kittens said:


> GKs have access to GK Command Squads giving them access to Apothecaries (FNP)


FNP doesn't mean much in the world of lasplas.


Blood of Kittens said:


> Vindicare has unlimited ammo for all special shots.


This is alright, but his one bullet shieldbreaker better still BREAK the ward save, otherwise he's only good at killing powerfist guys and melta dudes.



Blood of Kittens said:


> JOIN OUR BOARD LOLOLOL FOR MOAR BAD RUMORS


----------



## GrizBe

Second round of 'rumours' is up:



> Glad you guys could make it! Now it is time for the real good stuff. Let us not dilly dally! If people take these rumors and run just mention where ever you post them where you got them from that is all I ask!
> 
> GKs have access to many weapon upgrades.
> 
> GKs can pay for + str or rending for their storm bolters
> 
> Grand Masters give D3 special powers to Grey Knight units. Things like Digital Weapons, Master Crafted weapons, Wolf Standard, but with GK names.
> 
> Psycannon is Str 7 rending ap 4 either can fire 2 shots moving or 4 shots standing still.
> 
> Incenerator Str 5 ap 4 rending
> 
> Callidus Assassin = Long Fangs and Lootas no more. Works like Lictors/Marbo drops a str 4 ap 2 large blast when enters play and can still use the Neural Shredder which is now Str 8 ap 2.
> 
> The other Assassin are just updated versions of their old selves with the Culexus especially devastating to Psykers.
> 
> Their are three special character Inquisitors at least one will make Henchman Troop choices.
> 
> One GKs Special character will make Purgation Squads Troops (yes you heard that right) you can spam psycannons all you want.
> 
> One GK Special Character can take cheap termies talking Chaos Space Marine Terminator Cheap.
> 
> Grey Knights are “around” Plague Marine Cost
> 
> GKT are “around” vanilla marine termy cost.
> 
> Nemesis Force Weapons can be upgrade as well (increase initiative is one option).
> 
> Grey Knights do get a MC a cross between a Talos and Karamazov Elite choice. The plastic kit is done on this one so expect it with GK launch.
> 
> Dreadnoughts are Heavy Support.
> 
> GKT can mix and match Nemeis Force Weapons and TT/SS and get psy weapons as well.
> 
> Any GK unit can once per game gate of infinity with no deviation in the movement face and can shoot, but not assault. This could still be changed to become the new Grey Knight Teleport Attack and moved to Fast Attack slot.
> 
> Fluff– All GKs are subservient to the Inquisition beck and call. The drivers of GK vehicles are the Psykers not the vehicles themselves.
> 
> Ok guys that is it for now as I am able to get more specifics will have more updates.
> 
> I have held back one leak that I find to be the best. All of you come back to Blood of Kittens on Friday where the best Grey Knights have to offer will be revealed. No registration required.
> 
> Thanks again for joining up! Please stick around start a group, make some comments, and generally enjoy the new Blood of Kittens!



Alot of this sounds wishlisty, or generally bull to me.... Its getting kinda obvious this is some sort of ploy just to get people to sign up to a blog... sooo, I'm inclined to not believe alot of it.


Edit: Soo... analysing some of this... First few rumours are nothing new... Psycannon and incinerator stats go against what we've already been told. Assasins are nothing new... The characters sound plausable... And, that =I= character that makes henchmen troop choices would cover the not making IST's invalid... Costs, i'm not sure about, but the GKT sound too cheap. The MC, with that decription is definatley this rumoured Exo-walker. The mix and matching weapons and upgrading them sounds a little too overcomplicated when you can just have a basic version of them. Fluf... GK's subserviant? Thats bullshit without a major fluff rewrite. GK's are part of the =I= with a grand master serving in the inner circle. They're the militant arm of the =I= NOT subserviant marines.

And again, as said, sounds like just giving us what we've already heard in a new shiney package, put together to try and grab someone some fame.


----------



## boreas

Seems a bit more believable than the first part, but being so buried in salt that I'm mummified, I can't say...

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

As said, some is plausable, but other stuff has to be 100% pure horseapples without major rewrites to established fact..


----------



## Winterous

Logyn said:


> Well, Cruddance *did* write the codex, and after what he did to Tyranids, I wouldn't be surprised...


What?
You mean make them really good?
Sure he kicked Carnifexes in the nuts; and added in a couple of almost useless units, like Pyrovores.
But just about everything in the codex is flat-out BETTER, even if a few of those things are substantially more expensive.

Gargoyles? Bloody grand units!
Raveners? Also bloody grand!
Warriors? Actually fucking tough now; their one weakness is ID.
Hormagaunts? Oh my fucking god are they good!
Termagants? A great bullet shield, and can be damned powerful with Devourers!
Zoanthropes? Basically force your enemy to have Psychic defences, for fear of mind-rape!

Biovores are magnificent compared to what they used to be, but they still struggle a little with transports.
Carnifexes suffered in cost, but not in effectiveness.
Hive Tyrants are significantly better, but they cost a lot.


Oh, and we can't forget HIVE GUARD, arguably the single best unit in the game.


----------



## Azezel

Most of those Bloody Kitten rumours sound about as likely as an Exorcist kit that fits nicely. Good thing too as they're pretty loopy.

Oh, and Winterous is right, the 'nid 'dex is highly groovy.


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## GrizBe

I really don't see why people bash certain codex writers... only problem with teh nids codex is that theres too many idiots who don't know how to use them right as they can't run with nidzilla anymore. If the guy that wrote that is writing codex GK's I'll be very happy.


----------



## Logyn

Winterous said:


> What?
> You mean make them really good?


I don't mean that nids suck. I mean that everything that I felt was awesome about the army from the 4th edition codex was just cut and dropped out the window. I loved how each and every unit could be taken stock (and CHEAP) or kitted out to fill whatever role you desired. It was a unique and really interesting army. And Carnifexes were why I started playing 40k. 

So yea, what Cruddance did to Tyranids: ignore the unique elements that make them an interesting force, make my favorite unit in the game a piece of shit, nerfed flying tyrants off the tabletop, and left 1 slot (elite) to fit in all the anti-tank you can manage. I still play my bugs. I still love my bugs. But they could have been soooooooooooooooooo much better it isn't even funny (in terms of both competitiveness and fluff / fun-to-play elements).

Back on Topic: so, new rumors. 
1) this is possibly the most blatant gimmick to get blog subscribers I have ever seen, but anyway...
2) on clarification, a few of these make more sense, like the 'pentatent engine' thing maybe being a GK piloted walker, but I still cry foul on a few.
3) Point costs seem WAY too low from what I understand. I don't know of any character making units cheaper to run, and if that unit happens to be terminators of awesome this seems really strange to me.
4) I'm still not buying the vehicle psychic powers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have held back one leak that I find to be the best. All of you come back to Blood of Kittens on Friday where the best Grey Knights have to offer will be revealed. No registration required.
Sooooo, we have to wait even longer before we get this "uber" rumour?
If its better than what has been posted so far Im curious to what it might be, may it's fluff and the GKs worship a 5th CHAOS GOD!! Dun dun duuuuu!

Personal guess?
GKs were rumoured to be getting some new uber vehicle that looks something like the Achilles unless that one was mistaken for some GK vehicle when Stickmonkey got a tour of the studios.
This uber unit being revealed by BoK is my guess based on what was posted so far and if its the "best of all".

So what do you guys think this rumour thing will be? As shocking as the stuff posted now? He basically saying he made it all up just for laughs? Something really cool/cheesy/fluff vice impossible etc?



GKs have access to many weapon upgrades.
If they cant take the standard weapons of SM then I guess this refers to mele weapons.Thunder hammers, SS etc. GKT with NFW and SS would look really badass.
GKs can pay for + str or rending for their storm bolters
Psybolts?
Grand Masters give D3 special powers to Grey Knight units. Things like Digital Weapons, Master Crafted weapons, Wolf Standard, but with GK names.
So this will be like DE combat drugs?
Psycannon is Str 7 rending ap 4 either can fire 2 shots moving or 4 shots standing still.
So no longer blast? as was rumoured before.
Incenerator Str 5 ap 4 rending
I take it it still ignores cover saves and Inv saves.
Callidus Assassin = Long Fangs and Lootas no more. Works like Lictors/Marbo drops a str 4 ap 2 large blast when enters play and can still use the Neural Shredder which is now Str 8 ap 2.
This sounds really good, then again after she has jumped in she will get shot to death just like Maro.
The other Assassin are just updated versions of their old selves with the Culexus especially devastating to Psykers.
So when facing another GK player I should take one of these then 
Their are three special character Inquisitors at least one will make Henchman Troop choices.
Will be interesting to see what their rules will be.
One GKs Special character will make Purgation Squads Troops (yes you heard that right) you can spam psycannons all you want.
So I could take 6 squads of purgation squads, oh wait wasnt there something about 20 models being 2000pts? Then again those are probably pimped out with DH bling.
One GK Special Character can take cheap termies talking Chaos Space Marine Terminator Cheap.
A CSMT costs 30 points, this could be interesting to see.
Grey Knights are “around” Plague Marine Cost
around 23 points, similar to Incubi
GKT are “around” vanilla marine termy cost.
So around 40 points?
Nemesis Force Weapons can be upgrade as well (increase initiative is one option).
If they lose S6 then I guess this could make sense
Grey Knights do get a MC a cross between a Talos and Karamazov Elite choice. The plastic kit is done on this one so expect it with GK launch.
This has to be the GK walker that has been rumoured, but if this is true does that mean there will be PE in the codex as well? or are these the ones that will be in the fast attack slot?
Dreadnoughts are Heavy Support.
Because all the good stuff is usually in the elite slot?
GKT can mix and match Nemeis Force Weapons and TT/SS and get psy weapons as well.
Sounds pretty nasty but I will reserve judgement until I see this for myself.
Any GK unit can once per game gate of infinity with no deviation in the movement face and can shoot, but not assault. This could still be changed to become the new Grey Knight Teleport Attack and moved to Fast Attack slot.
This seems really useful and really fits the fluff well, helps them get across the board so they dont get shot to hell too quickly. Tau are screwed as always.
Fluff– All GKs are subservient to the Inquisition beck and call. The drivers of GK vehicles are the Psykers not the vehicles themselves.
All of the Inquisition? WTF? You must surely mean to Ordo Malleus like they have always been? GKs being the bitches of Ordo Xeno and Hereticus as well makes no sense at all?
Drivers being the psykers does make sense, was hoping they were worshipping a Ctan god like the Mechanicum does


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> He basically saying he made it all up just for laughs?


In fact, that was the first thing that occurred to me when the word-challenged gentleman in question promised another rumour on Friday. I dismissed it as too cynical, but I've been wrong before.


----------



## Logyn

The liberal amount of rending seems really odd to me. Why would Grey Knights have rending? What reason would they have for their shooting to have this usr? Especially when It seems to replace the ability to ignore invulns, which is a concept I find disturbing. 

Anybody else think of this little move?:
Assuming rumors here speak truth, Stormraven Gunships turbo boost into twinlinked Multimelta Range, then laugh as their melta-immune front armor beefs up to 14 for the return fire. Next turn move and disgorge a heap of scoring terminators with force weapons and storm shields to mass murder every living thing in your opponent's deployment zone.

You'd be boarding around 20 models at 2000 points, but Holy Crap.

edit: oh yea, and the ravens would have cover saves from turbo-ing too and ignore stunned/shaken. yikes. Just a silly thought, not trying to create a tactic.


----------



## Katie Drake

Logyn said:


> Anybody else think of this little move?:
> Assuming rumors here speak truth, Stormraven Gunships turbo boost into twinlinked Multimelta Range, then laugh as their melta-immune front armor beefs up to 14 for the return fire. Next turn move and disgorge a heap of scoring terminators with force weapons and storm shields to mass murder every living thing in your opponent's deployment zone.
> 
> You'd be boarding around 20 models at 2000 points, but Holy Crap.


Sounds awesome until someone blows one of the Stormravens out of the air and half one's army lands in a burning heap in the center of the board. Despite the rumored +2 to a single facing's AV, a Stormraven with AV14 on the front isn't going to be particularly scary as it has gigantic sides which will be easy to target.


----------



## coke123

What's a Storm Raven's front/side armour?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> What's a Storm Raven's front/side armour?


Well if you read my post, note that I mention that after adding +2 to the front armor it becomes 14... 

And the side is the same as the front.


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> Well if you read my post, note that I mention that after adding +2 to the front armor it becomes 14...
> 
> And the side is the same as the front.


Ah, but the rumour says that it improves armour to a *MAX* of 14, so if this upgrade was applied to an AV13 facing, then it would still only go to 14. Hence the question. But yeah, in that case it wouldn't be that scary, unless there was something that allowed multiple purchases of this AV upgrade, which is doubtful.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think the point of it being that you can increase the rear armour to 14, that should help you survive allot of attacks, plus being immune to melta makes it so you pretty much have to have power fists to break it.


I just had a horrible though, what if the last rumour to be released on Friday is that Sisters of Battle will also be in the codex?
Then again that would contradict what he said earlier.


----------



## coke123

Well then that would only confirm that he/she is full of crap. We know that there won't be a combined codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Well then that would only confirm that he/she is full of crap. We know that there won't be a combined codex.


So the codex including GKs, all Ordos and the Ecclesiarchy does not count as a combined codex already?


----------



## coke123

Fair point. Although I fail to see how all ordos are included- I don't see any mention of alien hunters or ordo hereticus in those rumours, not to mention all the other minor ordos. just a bit of ecclesiarchy, nothing from the actual ordo hereticus (AFAIK, I'm not exactly a fluffmaster when it comes to witch hunters). Although I'm already going to call bullshit on the ecclesiarchy stuff.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Fair point. Although I fail to see how all ordos are included- I don't see any mention of alien hunters or ordo hereticus in those rumours, not to mention all the other minor ordos. just a bit of ecclesiarchy, nothing from the actual ordo hereticus (AFAIK, I'm not exactly a fluffmaster when it comes to witch hunters). Although I'm already going to call bullshit on the ecclesiarchy stuff.


Im quoting this :
3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.

Its not from BoK but from BoLS, the rumour came out yesterday so I figured it to be just as reliable as the BoK ones.

Im also referring to this :
Fluff– All GKs are subservient to the Inquisition beck and call.

This to me makes it sound like the GKs are the little bitches of all the Ordos though that doesn't make much sense at all. About as my sense as the razor chainsaw breasted repentia video I posted 2 pages back.


----------



## coke123

But that's only the inquisitors; making inquisitors generic hardly counts as creating a combined codex. I don't see why a hereticus or even xenos inquisitors shouldn't be able to call upon grey knights- cultists and many xenos are heavily psychic, and the knights would be some of the best men for the job.

Although I'll agree that particular fluff piece is a load of shit. The knights shouldn't be there at the inquisition's every beck and call, but there to help out when the shit hits the fan.


----------



## Irbian

Some people are saying that this book cover is a good sign:

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_bok_nov_40k_910_000

What do you think? Is something usual to have books related to the current releasing?


----------



## coke123

Since it's about marines in general, and not the GK in particular, I'd say it's just a coincidence. They just wanted the most badass looking marine around for the cover, and that happens to be the GK. Now, if it were a new GK novel, then I'd be inclined to think this MIGHT mean something.


----------



## GrizBe

If you read the small print though, it does say 'Featuring a brand new Grey Knights story by Ben Counter'. Given its out in march, I'd say its a semi-positive sign of things to come.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> If you read the small print though, it does say 'Featuring a brand new Grey Knights story by Ben Counter'. Given its out in march, I'd say its a semi-positive sign of things to come.


it's purely because Ben Counter is one of BL's premier writers and he happens to be the highest profile writer in this collection, 
BL do not attempt tie ins, 
with the exception of the dawn of war series, 
which went so badly (release dates caused havoc and were totally missed in the end) they have said they are extremely unlikely to attempt any more tie ins.

The only other time they attempted a tie-in was the consecutive month releases of a thousand sons and prosporo burns.

Getting 99% of writers to hit deadlines is like herding cats, 
Dan Abnett and Sir Terry Pratchett being the only two I know of that hit them and unfortunately they are both mortal and so still miss deadlines


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> Dan Abnett and Sir Terry Pratchett being the only two I know of that hit them and unfortunately they are both mortal and so still miss deadlines


And unfortunately, Terry is reaching the end of his life.
He has dementia :cray:


----------



## Hurricane

I'm definitely going to be purchasing at least the codex when this army releases. I wanted my next army to be made of small focused units and if any of the rumors can be believed (usual bucket of salt required) then this will be my ideal choice. I'm especially looking forward to fielding a non-mech army, but I'll have to wait and see the viability of that build still.


----------



## Tuatara

Winterous said:


> And unfortunately, Terry is reaching the end of his life.
> He has dementia :cray:


That is sad news indeed.


----------



## GrizBe

Actually, its a form of Alzheimers he's got, and fortunately, he's not shown significant signs of deterations since he was diagnosed.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

BoK final rumour is out :
Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…

So 45 points for a 2wound terminator with FNP and Eternal Warrior? Hmm, thats pretty rough though they are probably allot more expensive that what has been suggested.


----------



## coke123

Well, that's got to at least be equivalent to a Brother Captain under the current rules. I'd say it should be at least 50pts per model, more likely around sixty. 45pts is ludicrous. Calling bull. Although I would like to see it happen...


----------



## Katie Drake

I haven't seen the Codex or anything, but unless these 2 Wound Terminators are single model units I guarantee they won't have Eternal Warrior.

Contrary to popular belief, models with more than 1 Wound don't need Eternal Warrior to be good. That being said their usefulness will depend very much on their points cost and the cost of their gear.


----------



## ROT

The only 2 wound - terminator based units I can think of are Obliterators .. which cost 75 points a piece.

I assume these GK will be insanely over-powered, surely they'll have to cost a beefed up 60-70 each?


----------



## Lucian Kain

Katie Drake,thanks for your work on Scribd,its legendary.

Everything sounds too good to be true but still plausable...
As long as Terminators can still wield S6 weapons,through upgrade or otherwise im happy.
Rending/+Strenght psycannon rounds for bolters/SB... would be far more effective than ignoring Invulnerable saves because Normal Armour saves are usually higher anyway...
I could imagion the psycik abilities ignoring invulnerable saves...or even of any kind...AKA Jaws oWW/Blood Lance equivelents...

Roll on March...


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK final rumour is out :
> Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…
> 
> So 45 points for a 2wound terminator with FNP and Eternal Warrior? Hmm, thats pretty rough though they are probably allot more expensive that what has been suggested.


Keep in mind that in those BoK rumors, troop terminators and these (uber-terminators, in the elite slot) are not the same thing. Hence, the Terminator/DG price comparison that he previously mentioned doesn't apply to them.

He also never said that they got Eternal Warrior; at least, not from his source(s). Instead he's musing about whether they'll get it or not.


----------



## GrizBe

I can't decide if thats wishlisty and bull, or logical and awesome... 

But yeah, defiantely seem underpriced at what cost has been suggested for them if thats true.


----------



## raven925

I feel if they make the termies the super unit they are said to be, they will be horribly over-priced. And i have noticed that in the newer books there is always some uber unit that is supposed to be the answer to their problems, but it always turns out to be an over priced unit thats not worth it because it can always be replaced by more squads of a different type that are cheeper and more effective. The termies are a core unit of our army as of right now, and seeing them go away due to something that can be easly avoided will make me have a sad face. Plus, they just look so damn good on the table.


----------



## Azezel

Fact is, it'd be impossible to correctly price a unit like that.

Worthless speed bumps against a mob of Ork Boyz (Not to mention Exorcist fodder against Sisters...), invincible gods of war against Eldar. What is a fair price?

In any event, these rumours hardly seem reliable and until confirmed by another source (not bloody likely) it's not worth worrying.

did BoK even give a source for these rumours?


----------



## soulreaver296

Hey guys, just dug myself out of the mound of salt I was lying in to see whats new... with... *finishes reading about 2 wound FNP Eternal Warrior Terminators*

Alright, see you all in a month or two. HONEY, CALL THE MORTON PLANT.


----------



## Mathai

My thought on the reasoning fluff wise for 2 wounds on a Terminator would be something like Artificer Terminator Armor...and if they make a model for THAT, then I think I would have to buy one a month for every paycheck untill I can make an entire Apocalypse army out of the, they would look so very nice. =)


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> My thought on the reasoning fluff wise for 2 wounds on a Terminator would be something like Artificer Terminator Armor...and if they make a model for THAT, then I think I would have to buy one a month for every paycheck untill I can make an entire Apocalypse army out of the, they would look so very nice. =)


Or, you know, basically just super badass Space Marines, which is what the Grey Knights are really.
GK are second only to Adeptus Custodes.
Every one of them is a Psyker, that just increases their badass-ity as well.


----------



## boreas

soulreaver296 said:


> Hey guys, just dug myself out of the mound of salt I was lying in to see whats new... with... *finishes reading about 2 wound FNP Eternal Warrior Terminators*
> 
> Alright, see you all in a month or two. HONEY, CALL THE MORTON PLANT.


Actually, a Space Wolf Lone Wolf in TA has 2 wounds, FNP, Eternal Warrior, Furious Charge, Acute Sense, Counter attack and Fearless. With a Frost Blade, it also has a St5 PW. 55 points. 

So those 2W/FNP GKTA are not ludicrous if priced at 60pts (get NFW, but lose FC, AS, CA).


Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Dark Eldar has this arcane piece of wargear where they force a Ld text on any psyker within 12" or some such. How would you use that vs GKs? Do you roll for every single GK separately or do you roll per unit?

Im not sure what I would pick if I got to chose, both have pros and cons.
Every single GK separately means you have a bigger chance to pick off a GK here and there.
Every unit means you have a small chance to destroy a WHOLE unit.


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> Actually, a Space Wolf Lone Wolf in TA has 2 wounds, FNP, Eternal Warrior, Furious Charge, Acute Sense, Counter attack and Fearless. With a Frost Blade, it also has a St5 PW. 55 points.
> 
> So those 2W/FNP GKTA are not ludicrous if priced at 60pts (get NFW, but lose FC, AS, CA).
> 
> 
> Phil


Uh, I don't think they have Furious Charge.


----------



## coke123

We can't possibly know until we have the wording of the actual codex. Although could it maybe work like thousand sons sorcerors? i.e. they'd only hit the justicar? 

And I must say, I didn't realise the lone wolf is so cheap. Perhaps this does lend credibility to this rumour? Or perhaps just as likely it's wishlisting based on the lone wolf.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> The Dark Eldar has this arcane piece of wargear where they force a Ld text on any psyker within 12" or some such. How would you use that vs GKs? Do you roll for every single GK separately or do you roll per unit?
> 
> Im not sure what I would pick if I got to chose, both have pros and cons.
> Every single GK separately means you have a bigger chance to pick off a GK here and there.
> Every unit means you have a small chance to destroy a WHOLE unit.


It'd depend if each individual GK model has the Psyker rule (I cannot remember if they currently do). If so, yes you roll for every model. If not, then you only roll for the models with the actual Psyker rule (probably the Justicars).


----------



## GrizBe

Going off the old codex, even though GK's as a unit had psychic powers, they didn't count as psykers so I don't think it would effect anything but characters, and then with their leadership values anyway it won't do much.

Besides, you could turn it against them and use that against the Dark Eldar what with the GK's rumoured 'counts as' power.


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> Going off the old codex, even though GK's as a unit had psychic powers, they didn't count as psykers so I don't think it would effect anything but characters, and then with their leadership values anyway it won't do much.
> 
> Besides, you could turn it against them and use that against the Dark Eldar what with the GK's rumoured 'counts as' power.


Actually all squad leaders (Justicars, and Brother-Captains or whatever) counted as Psykers, while the rest of the unit did not.


----------



## coke123

Not to mention they'll probably be fearless, so a Leadership test is somewhat of a moot point...


----------



## Shandathe

If they're all psykers, might be amusing to take them on with With Hunters though. Grab a psi-tracker and hand out the stake crossbows...


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Not to mention they'll probably be fearless, so a Leadership test is somewhat of a moot point...


Fearless only affects Morale and Pinning tests.


----------



## Azezel

Yanhunt posted the following on Bell of Lost Souls. It's nothing we didn't know already, but it's another voice so it seemed worth reporting for completeness' sake.



yanhunt said:


> When i met Jes Goodwin on dark eldar launch we had a really cool conversation, and part of that was the problem with the sisters plastics. The sleeves on their robes mean they can't be posable models made from componets (ie. like space marine arms). if you posed the arm up, then the sleeve would hand straight down, and if you posed the arm down it would fall forward, etc. the only way past it would be plug & play style minis like those that came with black reach box set.
> these problems had pretty much stalled plastic sisters and there was NO development underway at this time or the near future.
> 
> a new witch hunters codex is a long way off and he hinted at it being a very LONG way off


On another matter - after a recent PM conversation and a discussion elsewhere, I've started a thread on the fluff boards here with the objective of hammering out just what the hell is going on with the Sororitas fluff. I'd be interested in all of your contributions.


----------



## boreas

Some guy named Frgt/10 on warseer confirms O&G for March 2011. People seem to say he's extremely reliable. So, is Grey (knights) the new Dark (eldar)? Should the talk about Eternal Warrior Terminators actually be about Eternally Pushed Back Codex?

Sigh... maybe there's still a tiny bit of room in February?

Phil


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Fearless only affects Morale and Pinning tests.


Ah, touche. What does the Crucible of Malediction do exactly? I was under the impression that it just made them flee, i.e. forced morale checks. What does it do instead?



boreas said:


> Some guy named Frgt/10 on warseer confirms O&G for March 2011. People seem to say he's extremely reliable. So, is Grey (knights) the new Dark (eldar)? Should the talk about Eternal Warrior Terminators actually be about Eternally Pushed Back Codex?
> 
> Sigh... maybe there's still a tiny bit of room in February?
> 
> Phil


I hope this isn't true. On the topic of february, there might be room, although if they do the Grey Knight release alongside BA it wouldn't really do the Knights justice. The fact of the matter is that we haven't really heard much in ages explicitly about the Grey Knight release- we've simply seen the release schedule being given to us and then making speculations based on this. As for the O&G book being in march, this really makes sense, being that the last book released will have been a 40k codex. GW are probably just try to regain a balance in releases between fantasy and 40k after the whole 'block release' style of 2009-2010. The thing that has me worried about the Grey Knight release is that we don't know what the LOTR release schedule is like- I'm concerned about how that's going to affect things.

At any rate, I'm sure it'll come in due time. so long as it isn't released during either june or early november, I'm fine- these are when my uni exams are, and this release could be a major problem for my studies...


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Ah, touche. What does the Crucible of Malediction do exactly? I was under the impression that it just made them flee, i.e. forced morale checks. What does it do instead?


From memory, any Psyker within range that fails a Ld test is removed from play.


----------



## coke123

Oh shitballs. I sincerely hope the codex designers take this into account when creating the 'dex- My main opponent is Dark Eldar. Or I could just hope my mate doesn't notice it.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Oh shitballs. I sincerely hope the codex designers take this into account when creating the 'dex- My main opponent is Dark Eldar. Or I could just hope my mate doesn't notice it.


:laugh:
I imagine they'll do something similar to Psyker Battle Squads, treating the whole squad as one 'compound-Psyker' of sorts.
Meaning they all take Psychic tests as one, they take Perils as one (but lose multiple dudes, like PBS), and from things like the Crucible they'd lose a number of models, instead of the whole unit.
For example, a rule saying: "If ever an item or power that affects Psykers is turned against a squad of GK, instead of each model being affected individually, treat them as one model, but D6 GK models are subject to its effects."


----------



## Kettu

Well, 'Fall' (Is Autumn really that hard to remember America?) has come and gone and so far the ONLY date we have for the splatbook: Blood of Martyrs is Amazons January release date.
None of my locals have a clue about the books release date and I can't find an email address on FFG's web page.

Otherwise, nothing to add at this point in time.


----------



## Azezel

I was afraid of that. Thanks for keeping your finger on the pulse, Old Man.


Come to think of it - I suppose calling that season 'Fall' makes even less sense in the southern hemisphere... I'd never thought of that.


----------



## Tuatara

Azezel said:


> Come to think of it - I suppose calling that season 'Fall' makes even less sense in the southern hemisphere... I'd never thought of that.


Don't worry about us. It's easier for us to convert "Fall" to spring (fall for them is spring for us) than it is for the Americans to convert "Fall" to Autumn for themselves .


----------



## Lucian Kain

Irbian said:


> Some people are saying that this book cover is a good sign:
> 
> http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_bok_nov_40k_910_000
> 
> What do you think? Is something usual to have books related to the current releasing?


Thats,IMO the sexyist art work ive ever seen for a GK Terminator.
Looks like a good little book if your new to the 40k fluff.


----------



## Lucian Kain

MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK final rumour is out :
> Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…
> 
> So 45 points for a 2wound terminator with FNP and Eternal Warrior? Hmm, thats pretty rough though they are probably allot more expensive that what has been suggested.


If they're 45 points Naked that probably isn't so bad, once you add the basic weapons and war gear you'd be adding at least 20-30 points each?more...They probably work out to be on average about 100pts a pop?

2W,FNP terminators with 3++,plus weapon,plus purchased psycik abilities...:santa:


----------



## oblivion8

haha 500 pt terminator squads :laugh:

Throw the swarmlord and 3 lashwhip bodyguards at the unit and watch the player cry =P


----------



## Catpain Rich

a five man GKT squad used to be 1200 points if white dwarf is to be believed.

Let's not return to that. Please?


----------



## Lucian Kain

Catpain Rich said:


> a five man GKT squad used to be 1200 points if white dwarf is to be believed.
> 
> Let's not return to that. Please?


They used to be S5,T5,2W/3W? 3A?,an armour Value rule on 2D6, I cant remember it or the other stats many years since then, Hammers and chainfists were S10... Quite obviously Dumb uber rules, more suited to the "Movie star marines" rules that were released in god knows what White Dwarf release.

If you go with the notion of haveing 20 models on the board at 2000pts and a character that can turn these 45pt guys+gear/abilities into troops...?
More likely theyre just an Elite option only and the normal Terminators recieve the troops slot...?

I love terminators Uber or otherwise but 20 at 2000?:shok:


----------



## coke123

But that 20 at 2000 quote wasn't for a pure terminator force- assumedly it involved stormravens and land raiders and all kinds of expensive, one model units. tanks only count as one model, and most of these are going to be 200pts+. I believe that quote was also involving PAGK, so all in all these uber-terms aren't necessarily going to be 100pts. Frankly, to do that in an army which is going to be scraping together as many points as possible for troops doesn't really lend itself to selling lots of models. Assuming they actually exist (and I have my doubts) I'd say they'd be around 60-70 points/model- roughly at the obliterator mark.


----------



## raven925

"Throw the swarmlord and 3 lashwhip bodyguards at the unit and watch the player cry =P"

A well placed force weapon will take care of the body guards and the swarm lord.
you=:shok:
me=:sarcastichand:

ive done it, and i plan to do it again.


----------



## Winterous

raven925 said:


> "Throw the swarmlord and 3 lashwhip bodyguards at the unit and watch the player cry =P"
> 
> A well placed force weapon will take care of the body guards and the swarm lord.
> you=:shok:
> me=:sarcastichand:
> 
> ive done it, and i plan to do it again.


But you're striking at I1, have to re-roll any successful Invulnerable saves, and suffer Instant Death from every unsaved wound


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> But you're striking at I1, have to re-roll any successful Invulnerable saves, and suffer Instant Death from every unsaved wound


Why are the terms at I1? is it some tyranid ability? I have yet to play against them in their current rendition. and as for instant death, there is talk of eternal warrior. and do these things have power weapons; I thought they just rended? because if they only rend then you're forgetting the whole, you know, terminator armour thing... Again, I'm not familiar at all with tyranids.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Why are the terms at I1? is it some tyranid ability? I have yet to play against them in their current rendition. and as for instant death, there is talk of eternal warrior. and do these things have power weapons; I thought they just rended? because if they only rend then you're forgetting the whole, you know, terminator armour thing... Again, I'm not familiar at all with tyranids.


"3 lashwhip bodyguards"
Lash Whips reduce the Initiative of any enemy models in base contact with the wielder to 1.
The Hive Tyrant (in this case the Swarmlord) is a Monstrous Creature, and the Swarm Lord has a lot of attacks which cause ID and also re-roll successful Invulnerable saves against him.

The Tyrant Guard have Rending yes, but they aren't the main force, they're just ablative wounds for the Tyrant.
Oh, and you can't pick out the Tyrant in combat, or in shooting either.


----------



## coke123

Right, I think my main problem is that I confused swarmlord with broodlord. Big difference. Glad I dont see Nids that often...

Although if these guys are eternal warriors as speculated, then the swarmlord won't ID them.


----------



## Irbian

O&G confirmed for march in the newsletter...>-<


----------



## boreas

Darn... back to painting lizzies for 6 months...

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

Unless they're gonna pull some sort of fast one and stick GK's in with the BA second wave release in Feb, looks like we won't be getting GK's till mid next year now....

Looks like I've time to start that second Fantasy army then....


----------



## coke123

I guess I'll be tying up the loose ends in my Eldar, and then expand my beloved lizzies.

Since greenskins are march, is may then a possibility for the GK? Meaning we shouldn't expect to hear anything official until late January/February?


----------



## Jae Namkyoung

... ... *goes back to working on Space Wolves*

Greenskins in March, ... -_-


----------



## Kettu

Ok, so I found how to email FFG, my message was:


Kettu said:


> Hello, I am inquiring about the release date of the Dark Heresy book, Blood of Martyrs.
> Your website mentions that it is due in ''fall'' however it is now winter in America and when I asked at my local hobby stores about it''s release, none were even aware such a book existed, let alone was meant to of been on sale already.
> 
> Thank you.


There response didn't help at all.



Fantasy Flight Games said:


> We put our release and reprint schedule on our website here:
> 
> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_upcoming.asp
> 
> Blood of Martyrs is current en route to the warehouse - it shipped out on 8th of November, which means it should be arriving at the warehouse soon!
> 
> Thanks for playing


Sigh, still nothing from any of sources. 
Not that any of my sources are terribly in the know to start with.

Anywho; Grey Knights pushed back and Sisters won't even start development till late next year. Why does this not surprise me?


----------



## coke123

Eh, with this pushback I'm thinking I might just pick up a few of the current models to get me started. Quick question, are there any noticeable scale/size differences between the current GK models and current SM models? Because I'd be pissed to invest money in midget knights...


----------



## Azezel

Legend has it that the new plastic GK terminators are noticably larger than the current metal ones. I don't know about the scale between current GK and current smurfs.

If you wanted to start collecting now, perhaps a couple of Land Raiders and a dread would be better. They aren't going to change much and you havee six months to get a really solid paint job done. (Or you could use the time to kitbash a Stormraven that doesn't hurt the eyes to see).

Oh, and thanks for the update, Kettu - I'd +rep you, but I have to 'spread it around' apparantly.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

My local gaming store has 2 copies of "Blood of Martyrs" in it for sale...


----------



## boreas

coke123 said:


> Eh, with this pushback I'm thinking I might just pick up a few of the current models to get me started. Quick question, are there any noticeable scale/size differences between the current GK models and current SM models? Because I'd be pissed to invest money in midget knights...


I'm doing this also... I have about 2000pts of models (excluding LRs) painted metallic. I'm slowly going to repaint some of them (about 2 each PAGK pose plus 2 psycannons GK and 2 incinerator GK) without using metals. Right now, they look more like "grey" knight than the NMM I'm trying to achieve but practice makes good!


----------



## Azezel

More good news - it looks like we have the cover art for _Hammer & Anvil_.

It's a too slim for power armour - like almost all pictures of Battle Sisters, but at least the artist has made the torso look like a solid piece, rather than a leather corset. The bolter looks weird, but I'm pleased to see what I think is an eviscerator in her right hand. There weren't nearly enough 'viscerators in _Faith & Fire_ (None, in fact). Best of all, she isn't very pretty - that would've been a bad sign. She is just a normal looking person, a bit of grey hair, horrible scar, no makeup very groovy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Didnt one of the girls in Faith and Fire get her pride destroyed when that psyker whispered some spell into her ear and she became a Sister Repentia and they were running around turning people into mush 

Awesome art though


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> I'm doing this also... I have about 2000pts of models (excluding LRs) painted metallic. I'm slowly going to repaint some of them (about 2 each PAGK pose plus 2 psycannons GK and 2 incinerator GK) without using metals. Right now, they look more like "grey" knight than the NMM I'm trying to achieve but practice makes good!


Nice job! Have some rep.

And on the matter of Land Raiders, I'm reluctant to pick any up, seeing as how they'll be competing with stormravens in my list.



Azezel said:


> Best of all, she isn't very pretty - that would've been a bad sign. She is just a normal looking person, a bit of grey hair, horrible scar, no makeup very groovy.


I'd still hit that. Nothing sexier than chicks with enormous chainswords in tight-fitting power armour! :biggrin:


----------



## OIIIIIIO

coke123 said:


> I'd still hit that. Nothing sexier than chicks with enormous chainswords in tight-fitting power armour! :biggrin:


I hit that 3 times since I saw it and I never left the computer room.:wild:


----------



## Necrosis

Anyone know what the symbol on her arm carrying the bolter is? Also I think that is a chain sword not an eviscerator.


----------



## mahavira

I don't agree that it's too slim for power armor: a) how much of the blockiness of SM power armor is actually the blockiness of the underlying super soldier, and b) as there are all kinds of functions that battle sisters can't use in SM power armor, is it really too much to imagine that the adeptus mechanicus stripped out those parts and slimmed down the armor for maneuvrability (and propoganda purposes - such distinctive troops need to look good to inspire others - probably a reason why space marines don't use camo). They should do a knight donning his armor type illustration to show how the different parts of the outfit (the red robes, for example, seem to interact a bit strangely with the other layers) go on.

And isn't that too small to be an eviscerator? That looks like the length of a normal chainsword to my eye. Anyway, hopefully the author has spent the time since Faith and Fire learning how to make characters at least ONE dimensional (2 or 3 might be asking a lot).


----------



## Winterous

Necrosis said:


> Anyone know what the symbol on her arm carrying the bolter is?


You mean on the shoulder pad?
That's an Aquila.


----------



## coke123

Necrosis said:


> Anyone know what the symbol on her arm carrying the bolter is? Also I think that is a chain sword not an eviscerator.


On the left shoulder it would appear to be the imperial eagle, which I believe is the aquila? on the right I would say that looks an awful lot like the fleur de lis, which is typically considered to be a piece of the french monarchy's heraldry. I have no idea what significance it holds in 40k though...


----------



## Azezel

No, on her vambrace, there is something engraved. I've been wondering about it myself.

She's in the colours of the Order of Our Martyred Lady (big surprise), but that's certainly not the Order's insignia, nor does it seem to be a Fluer de Lys or Aquila.

I hate to say it, but it looks like a cross between the insignia of the alpha Legion and the Blood Angels. I think we can probably rule that out, though.

As for the sword, it looks a little big for a chainsword, but it could be.


----------



## Winterous

It's the symbol that's on like EVERY SOB model, the weird little crown-y thing.


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> It's the symbol that's on like EVERY SOB model, the weird little crown-y thing.


The Fleur de Lys - literally, lily-flower. For reasons to complicated to explain in a forum post, the lily flower represented purity in the cultures of the ancient near-east. One of Jesus' more famous parables begins 'consider the lillies' - the author of the gospel of Matthew did not choose the lily on a whim. to the people for which he was writing it had a powerful metaphorical weight.

Through cultural progress and the Chinese Telephone game that metaphor grew until by the middle ages it represented specifically spiritual purity. From thence it became attached to the virgin Mary, and grew to symbolize her specifically, and female spiritual purity in general.

If you look at most any renaissance painting of Mary you'll see a lily there somewhere. Games Workshop - let's be honest, aren't massively creative, but they know their history, and when they needed a symbol for the sororitas, there was only one choice.

tl;dr ⚜=spiritually pure women.


----------



## coke123

Ah, now that makes sense. All I knew of the Fleur de Lis was that it is prevalent throughout french medieval heraldry, and I couldn't see the link. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Dynamike

Very constructive, informative and interesting information Azezel. 

Thank you very much for that!


----------



## Mathai




----------



## MadCowCrazy

Check out episode 4 of Dice Like Thu.... I mean Eternal Warriors podcast, they talk about the cheese/douchbaggery I found in the DE codex 

http://theeternalwarriors.com/

I was trying to be funny but they make it sound more like Im an asshole 


Here is the email I sent to them, they did not fully cover it in the podcast and I think they misunderstood when I talked about a skimmer transport on impassible terrain, I mean like on an actual piece of terrain not the WWP since its to small.


> Thats it, I know I was probably cheese hunting where no cheese was to be found but here are the reasons why I came to the conclusion anything touched by the WWP would be destroyed.
> I searched through the entire rule book twice and as you said the only place the scenario comes up is when units deepstrike into impassible terrain. As this is not what is happening then one would assume nothing happens but if this was true what would happen if I parked a skimmer transport ontop of impassible terrain and it was then immobilised, wrecked or destroyed in the opponents shooting phase. The same thing is basically happening, your opponent causes your embarked units to end up inside impassible terrain. How do you resolve this? This is something that came to mind when I read the new FAQ about skimmers as this was not covered and why the WWP dilemma is so interesting to me.
> 
> Do you move the units the shortest possible route out of the impassible terrain? If so that would mean, in the case of immobilised, that you could disembark onto impassible terrain and move the shortest way out of it. Do you take the units move into consideration? If the unit can move 6" but doesn't get out of impassible terrain does it simply just wait there until next turn to move again or is it destroyed?
> If they unit simply moves the shortest possible way out of impassible terrain then why cant deep striking units do the same?
> If I had a skimmer on top of impassible terrain full of nasty units and you shot it down, how would you rule it? Would the units simply jump out and move towards the shortest way out of impassible terrain or would they be destroyed?
> 
> I'm 100% sure this is something that will be addressed in the DE FAQ but until then how should you interpret the rules?
> RAW or RAI? Using the above scenario how do you justify what we would assume to be GWs RAI ruling?
> 
> There are 4 ways to solve the dilemma;
> 1: The portal can not be placed inside another unit because it counts as impassible terrain (so you cant place it on your own or the opponents units. Maybe you just lost your IC with your Grotesques and you don't want them to rampage so you remove them with the WWP).
> 2: The portal can be placed but any model under it is unaffected by the impassible terrain and simply move the shortest way possible out of it in their movement phase.
> 3: The portal can be placed and any unit touched by it is sucked into the WWP to be played with by your units in reserve basically destroying the unit.
> 4: The portal can be placed and any unit touched by it is sucked into the WWP where they fight a desperate battle to get back into realspace, they basically end up in your opponents reserves and are rolled for as normal at the start of his movement phase but may only be deployed from any WWP on the table. (This sounds the most fun but also the most unlikely scenario).
> 
> This is the reason I came to the conclusion that I did and why I have been asking allot of people about it to see what they think. Ive asked on our forum but no one could come up with an answer, I asked Darrell the cheese maker from Beats of War and not even him could come up with an answer. So I handed it over to you guys as Ive been a listener since I started with Warhammer 40k some 3 years ago. I think ep 20-30 or so was the first one I listened to.


Figured you guys would like to have a listen


----------



## coke123

Listened to it. Whilst I hardly agree with them branding you as a douche, I believe their argument about the webway portal is correct. Nice to have that resolved.

Although what was that about the 'Dreadknight'? You know, in the first 20 minutes before they got to the portal? I don't recall hearing this name- is this the name of the rumoured uber terminator?


----------



## IanC

Oddly I got round to assembling what I have got of my Witch Hunters the last 2 days, (one Battle Sisters Squad and an Inquisitor + Retinue) plus some Cadians standing in for some ISTs. Will be giving them a go tomorrow along side some Space Marines... foolish?


----------



## Azezel

Yes, you can't field Space Marines in a Witch Hunters army that includes Battle Sisters.


----------



## asianavatar

Can't you do that if you use the SM as the main army and the WH as allies.


----------



## Mathai

Thats how I always understood it.


----------



## Katie Drake

asianavatar said:


> Can't you do that if you use the SM as the main army and the WH as allies.


That's why he said you can't take Space Marines in a _Witch Hunter_ army.


----------



## Azezel

Yes, if you have an HQ and two Troops from the Marine dex of your choice, you may use WH allies, including Sisters of Battle.

However, IanC wants to do it the other way around (I think): Inquisitor Lord+Retinue, Battle Sister Squad, IST squad - a legal WH army, but he can't include Marines in it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Listened to it. Whilst I hardly agree with them branding you as a douche, I believe their argument about the webway portal is correct. Nice to have that resolved.
> 
> Although what was that about the 'Dreadknight'? You know, in the first 20 minutes before they got to the portal? I don't recall hearing this name- is this the name of the rumoured uber terminator?


A long time ago there used to be small titans called Knights and Paladins.









I own 10 of the above model and they are about the size of a Space Marine, the one in the pic is epic scale I believe. Unless that was a titan sized model in the picture.

Anyways, these smaller "titans" were ment to go face to face with other titans. They might be small but they carry bigger guns than the troops or regular dreadnoughts can.

Enough fluff...

It is rumoured that the GK will get a MC Dreadnought of some kind, Ive heard everything from it being a remake of Lord Karmazov who's a WH Inquisitor but all Ordos are rumoured to be represented in the codex. Another rumour says its a Penitent Engine type model piloted but a GK, other says its simply the Penitent Engine.

The Blood of Kittens rumours mentioned Penitents in Fast Attack, Regular Dreads in HS and this uber dread some place else.

These are the rumours going around about the mentioned uber dread.

If the BoK rumours are true then we are looking at a combo codex containing everything but the Sisters of Battle and the rumours say they might get a WD update at the same time as the GK codex release.

Personally Im starting to think the codex will be copy paste for SoB into the codex just replacing the GKs. This could explain a WD release, you have to buy the GK codex but if you want to take SoB instead just replace all the GK entries with SoB entries.


----------



## IanC

asianavatar said:


> Can't you do that if you use the SM as the main army and the WH as allies.


Thats how im doing it. 

The WH are 500 points, originally they were going to be the start for a full WH army but im holding of on that for now.


I'm honestly hoping for a "all in" book, a general Codex: Inquisition as it were. Unlikely I know.


----------



## Azezel

Only Dice Like Thunder have ever hinted at a WD codex for the Sisters and so far as I know they've never released their source. I'll believe it when I see it. Blood of Kittens seems about as reliable.

Until we hear anything about repackaged Sisters I can't see GW publishing anything for the Sisters, there's simply no money in it for them.

The people who would use a WD codex already have our Sisters, and no-one else is going to spend £50 a unit to start an army with a half-arsed WD update in place of a funky 5e Codex.


----------



## Azezel

An aquaintance on RPG.net posted a rundwon of the contents of Blood of Martyrs.



Faustus21 said:


> Chapter 1:
> A million Worlds, One Emperor
> Pg 6-16 a detailed history of the Ministorum (From the HH to present)
> Pg 16-17 An over view of the structure of the Ministorum
> Pg 18-22 Overview of the Imperial creed
> Pg 23 overview of the Sororitas
> Pg 25-44 The Calixian Ecclesiarchy (Overview, with details on cults, the caridinals, local saints, intrests )
> 
> Chapter 2:
> Paths of the Righteous:
> 3 New Origins:
> Shrine world
> Famulous Protege (Think bene gesserit breeding program)
> Monastic upbringing
> 
> 5 new background packages:
> Blessed Birth (Cleric and Sororitas) Born on a holyday
> Convert (Feral homeworld) recent convert to the faith
> Piligrim (any but tech-priest)
> Omnissian apostate (Tech-priest only) Techie that worships the emperor
> Witness to the Divine (Guardsmen only) Seen something that has given you great faith
> 
> 3 new alt. starting ranks
> Confessor (Arbitrator or Cleric) lots of intimidation
> Frateris Militia (Adept, Cleric or Scum) More dakka and common lores
> Redmptionist (Assassin or Cleric) Rarrghhh kill burn! gets some nice unique talents that mitigate disadvantages of their favored weapons (Flame and chain)
> 
> 3 normal alt. career
> Arch Exorcist (Cleric Rank 7) Daemon smiting goodness
> Drill Abbot (Guardsmen 5) Command stuff + unique talent which lets you share a weapon training talent with others
> Calixian Witchfinder (Cleric Rank 5) Psyker hunter
> 
> Cell Directives: A joint buy in for the whole group which gies a unique ability and a small set of advances. 4 are presented:
> 
> Hereticus Retinue: Ordus Herticus agents. Gain haterd talents as unique ability. Adavance scheme has lots of Forbidden lore goodies
> Firebrands: BURN IT ALL! gains flame trianing or restince heat as unique ability. Advances scheme is burning and faith talents
> Iron Evangelists: Strong belivers in the imperial faith. Unique ability is common lore for free, Advanced scheme is faith (Spreading it or using it)
> Sanction Wardens: Keep an eye on the psyker, special ability allow a chance to counter peril of the warp, in return for beating on the psyker. Advanced scheme is for working with pyskers.
> 
> Chapter 3:
> Brides of the Emperor
> A more in depth look at the Sorortaries
> 
> then more career/Alt. rank goodness
> Battle Sister (The career in IH is a generalist) More killy than the IH version + starts with Power Armour and Bolter! no thrones and have no income. But can requistion better weapons
> Seraphim (Battle Sister 5) Assault Sister
> Celestian (Battle Sister 5) Tougher version of normal Sister but more focused
> Sister Repentia (All Sorotaries 4) If your gonna die, then burn bright
> Sister Dialogous (Adept 1/Alt start) good at cracking ciphers and texts
> Sister Famulous (Cleric 1/Alt start) bene gesserit pretty much
> Sister Hospitaller (Adept 1/Alt Start) Healing and medical stuff
> 
> Chapter 4:
> Faith and Fury
> 
> Faith talents and there uses. The Miricals of the God-Emperor
> 
> Chapter 5: Reliqueary
> New gear, Servitors, Retainers and relics
> 
> Chapter 6:
> Ecclesiarchy Campaigns:
> GM advice on running games





Faustus21 said:


> 141pgs + a few pages of advertisments. No adventure instead a pretty detailed write up of a shrine world (Port Seth which clocks in at 5 pages).


It includes the following servitors/cybernetic killing machines.


Faustus21 said:


> Arco-flagellants
> Calligraphus Servitor
> Ministrorum Choir Drone
> Penitent engine
> Self-flagellants


I'm getting mine next weekend, but from the sounds of it, it's a worthy adition to any Sisters/Ecclesiarchy fan''s collection, even if you don't play Dark Heresy.


----------



## Necrosis

I found if sisters starting with power armour and bolter is going to make them overpowered. The idea they can requisition better weapons makes them feel a bit like death watch. Well that's the only negative thing I have to say. Everything else seems awesome and I look forwarded to getting this.


----------



## Winterous

Self-Flagellants? They sound interesting...


----------



## Shandathe

Necrosis said:


> I found if sisters starting with power armour and bolter is going to make them overpowered. The idea they can requisition better weapons makes them feel a bit like death watch. Well that's the only negative thing I have to say. Everything else seems awesome and I look forwarded to getting this.


... eh, it's Dark Heresy. It's rarely straight combat and if you're looking to be ANYWHERE near inconspicuous, walking everywhere in Sororitas Power Armour isn't going to work out well


----------



## IanC

I've actually thought of picking up one or two of the RPG books just to look through. This might be my first.


----------



## Irbian

Stickmonkey on warseer. Necron rumours on mid 2011 and other stuff. About GK:



> So the grey knight rumors are hitting fast, it looks like we will see them as the first 40k army of 2011. I have mixed feelings over what I've been hearing, a very lot of it directly conflicts things I know for a fact. But I cant call those items out specifically yet, I'm sorry...NDAs suck sometimes.
> 
> [Necron rumours]
> 
> On the flyer front. Theres a rumor of a thunderbolt fighter in design for plastic...from the sound its very early, and if other rumors are true of a "flyer" WD supplemental release, it would not make that cut.
> 
> As always, my rumors are typically far off and subject to change. but so far ive got a better hit to miss ratio...hopefully GK wont ruin my record...





> Ignis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for all the news !
> Small question though, around when will you be able to shed a little light on the GK rumors?
> 
> 
> 
> I wont. My NDA will keep me out of GK now until release. Other than scattered personal comments, I really cant comment to specifics within the defined "release window" of the NDA. So I can say its coming, but not when. And All these new rumors really started hitting after that clause of my specific agreement went into effect...kinda coincidentally really...
> 
> So...to all the PMers, I will not be replying to your inquiry about specifics. just know, this is not a personal slight to you, I just cant anymore.
> 
> On a SM note, I do hear the Stormraven should be making its official debut "very soon." Not sure if its Advanced order or next White Dwarf, but it should have some better official shots soon...if not already, I havent really been watching the gw site....
Click to expand...




> To be clear, I'm under release NDA for the GK release. The Necron stuff is new, and I have no NDA in place there...at least not yet.


Link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286432


----------



## coke123

...well, hopefully this at least means something. If the current codex is now more set in stone, they could be tightening uo security? Since earlier it wouldn't matter as they knew half the stuff would change anyway?

Either that or it means nothing and my entire post is just wishful thinking.


----------



## Azezel

March or later still seems the best bet.

Also, Thunderbolts? Given that SM says it wouldn't be in time for bolt-on Flyer rules, and the Marines and Guard already have flyers and the Thunderbolt makes no sense for the Ecclesiarchy, what is it for?


----------



## GrizBe

If he's under an NDA, I'd say that means within the next 6 months we'll be seeing GK, or they'd not have done something like that given all the rumours he could say a few months ago.... April's looking the most likely spot now.


----------



## exsulis

Ugg, and why do keep hearing this rumor about is a GreyKnight walker/dread with a jump pack k: something like up to a potential 30 inch movement.


----------



## coke123

exsulis said:


> Ugg, and I rumor I keep hearing about is a GreyKnight walker/dread with a jump pack k: something like up to a potential 30 inch movement.


You're scaring the slugs a bit here. May I ask where you heard this, or is it one of those 'they'll lose their job' situations?


----------



## GrizBe

A 30 inch movement dread? :shok: *Burries that one near the dead sea.* I'd love one, but it does sound a bit wishlisty.


----------



## Azezel

A thirty-inch movement Monstrous Creature dread with two DCCW, inferno cannon and heavy 12 psycannon. Do me a lemon.


----------



## soulreaver296

And don't forget, its cheaper than a land raider, can hide in CC, has a regular 12" movement (and may be able to deep strike, given its jumper status), probably can't be insta-gibbed by high S (or explode), and can be supported by even cheaper variants (who just lose the movement stuff). Meet Wraithlord 2.0


----------



## GrizBe

Our survey says.... brown trousers as far as the eye can see. lol


----------



## exsulis

I heard it from a bloke, and I've seen it pop up on a few 40k boards. Well, *if* it does exist, and it has a JP then figure at least 12" move, and a run move(18"). If this 30" movement actually exists then I'm guessing something like a turbo boast + a run move as that is the only way I personally see it happening.


----------



## Azezel

I think it also has a pony and a time machine.

The same poster (Stinger989) that brought up the 'Dreadknight' (ugh, I hate it when I'm right.) also claims to have read the codex and said it would be published April 2. He also said vehicles would have a psychic power that negates stunned/shaken.


----------



## exsulis

Yeah, I've "heard" that name too.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maybe it can teleport up to 30"? There has been allot of rumours about how the GK Terminators can teleport once a game without deviating and can assault the same turn they teleport.


----------



## Shandathe

April 2nd is a Saturday... Maybe if we ask nicely they'll release it April 1st instead? Seems like it'd be a better day


----------



## coke123

Shandathe said:


> April 2nd is a Saturday... Maybe if we ask nicely they'll release it April 1st instead? Seems like it'd be a better day


Nah, that's when the Fishmen release is slated for .


----------



## OIIIIIIO

coke123 said:


> Nah, that's when the Fishmen release is slated for .


No no no ... Squats will be re-released on April da first.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some Vindicare rumours from BOLS.

Exitus weapons are said to be AP:1
Both a rifle (sniper) and pistol come as standard equipment
Weapon ranges are said to be unchanged
Unlimited special Exitus ammo types are now available: ~Apparently the Imperium sends Vindicares into the field with ammo clips now!
-Hellfire (wounds on a 2+)
-Turbo Penetrator (doubles wounds, 4d6 penetration)
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

4d6 penetration? What possible AP does that lead to? If the old one can get you to 30, does this one get you to 39? When the highest in the game is 14 getting 30+ seems kinda overkill...

If the shield breaker works like this it could be really handly to get rid of nasty units like wolflords with frost blades and storm shields. No more 3++ for you


----------



## exsulis

Lol, MCC that info is in the assassin thread, and the Vindicator thread as well.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

exsulis said:


> Lol, MCC that info is in the assassin thread, and the Vindicator thread as well.


Shush, I was let out of the asylum yesterday so I had not seen it!


----------



## coke123

exsulis said:


> Lol, MCC that info is in the assassin thread, and the Vindicator thread as well.


Welll this is an inquisition rumour thread, so it's not like it doesn't belong here... It really should have been posted here originally, or in the other thread someone started months ago for the assassin statline, rather than in a new thread.

Oh, and this has been bugging the hell out of me, and a lot of people have been doing it- this rumour has nothing to do with vindicators. _*Vindicators*_ are siege tanks. _*Vindicares*_ are sniper assassins. Big difference.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Shush, I was let out of the asylum yesterday so I had not seen it!


Arkham? Please tell me you're a Batman villain!


----------



## GrizBe

Theres a rumour going around that GW made another Stormraven type cock up and posted a release summery sheet on the GW site that had a summary of the GK release and a picture of a plastic GK terminator.

So far looking around online I've found nothing in any forum or corner of the interweb, so I'm marking this as bollocks, given that IF it had happened, someone would have snagged it and posted it.


----------



## coke123

I _*absolutely refuse*_ that they'd make the same cock-up twice. No fucking way. Especially this soon after the 'Stormraven Incident of 2010'.

It may have been a conversion of some variety? Where exactly did you hear this?


----------



## GrizBe

Friend of mine told me he'd been into his local store and the manager was discussing it with some of the regulars. That and its made it to different forums including warseer from different sources.

As said, can't find it online anywhere, and after the aforementioned incident... I'm pretty sure its 99% pure bull testicles.


----------



## coke123

I agree. I went looking myself. I found some mention of it, but no pics. Or blurbs or sheets for that matter.

For anyone interested here's the link:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284888&page=21

Second post from the bottom.

While I was here I noticed something that I don't recall being posted here, so I thought i'd share. A description of the rumoured MC.

Originally posted by stinger989 on warseer



> They will not get bogged down and there is two versions of the dredknight as i have read the first option will run ya 130pts with a gatling psycannon (heavy 12), and a heavy incinerator gun (fires like a hellhound) and its armed with two dred cca. the second is a dred same as above but also armed with a jump jet which will run 205pts and can move 12" then once per game it can boost to move 30" but may not assault afterwards.
> 
> as reguarding the rumors with upping the armor value that is not going to happen although there is a power that allows the vehicle to negate crew stunned and crew shaken.


Heavy 12 Psycannon? Before the guard codex I'd have called shenanigans, but lately, I dunno... maybe. 130pts seems a little cheap.


----------



## GrizBe

A Heavy 12 psycannon? Ouch.... I'd say that points cost is a little cheap for something like that.


----------



## Winterous

Yeah, a Heavy 12 Psycannon is... Over the top.
Powerful, but not really phenomenal, against MEQ, but against anything that relies on an Invulnerable save (coughDAEMOnScough), that's just bloody murder, you'd be able to wipe out anything without Armour in one volley, easily.


----------



## equitypetey

cheesus H crust heavy 12 psycannon!!! never going to happen but if it does i'll be happy


----------



## boreas

Well, everyone scoffed at the Heavy20 gatling cannon in the IG rumors a few years ago, so who knows? Let's say it's St7 Ap4, rending: against MEq: 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, roughly 3.5 (2.5 plus 1 because of rending) dead, not that broken. Against TEq: 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, roughly 2 dead (factoring one rending). Against IGEq: 9 hits, 7.5 dead (better, but hey that's about 40 points worth of dudes). 

Where that beast would hurt is against vehicles:

Against a rhino (roughly): 9 hits, 1-2 glances, 2 penetrates.
Against a LR: 9 hits: 1.5 glance that rend: 0.5 glance (13+1), 1 penetrate (13+2 or 13+3). So this gun has about 66% chance of penetrating a LR in one round of shooting. I thing a Dark Eldar Ravager with 3 Dark Lances has about the same odds...

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Who needs to use the Psycannon against infantry? This thing also has an Inferno Cannon (which probably ignores Invulnerable saves) and _two_ DCCWs. All for 130 points. This thing will murderise any infantry you can throw at it. And the only downside is people pointing and laughing when you have to use the word 'Dreadknight'.

I don't believe it. The super psycannon, or the Inferno Cannon, or the 30" move, any one I could believe, but all of them on one MC model for 130/200 points?


----------



## boreas

Nah, not "all-dressed", you're right. But a GK dread that could have either a Gatling pasycannon, an inferno cannon or a second DCCW on the right arm makes sense. As for the 30" move, it could be after disembarking from the Stormraven or a teleport move?

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

I'd guess a teleport rather then a jump pack since Terminators are meant to be able to teleport again after they've teleported in. It would make sense if a Dread could do the same, rather then having a jump pack strapped to it.


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> Well, everyone scoffed at the Heavy20 gatling cannon in the IG rumors a few years ago, so who knows?


This is exactly what I was thinking. Maybe it could happen... How much does that Leman Russ variant cost? Anyway, if this happens you might as well paint an enormous target on your model. I hope that if it happens it can't be insta-killed, or is really tough, because either way it will attract a lot of lascannon fire...



Azezel said:


> I don't believe it. The super psycannon, or the Inferno Cannon, or the 30" move, any one I could believe, but all of them on one MC model for 130/200 points?


Good point. I'm starting to think that the Ultra-Psycannon would be on the cheaper variant, and be used in a ranged support role (or DSed into enemy lines so he can do his thing, depending on the cannons range) and then the inferno cannon and maybe 2DCCWs and jump pack on the 205pt variant. So you have to choose between shooty vs assaulty.


----------



## Dynamike

coke123 said:


> _*Vindicators*_ are siege tanks. _*Vindicares*_ are sniper assassins. Big difference.


Why Coke123, you don't know the Vindicator Assassin? It's a heavy support version of the Vindicare assassin. He carries a big cannon around kind of like Serious Sam and shoots S10 big pie plates away.


----------



## coke123

Dynamike said:


> Why Coke123, you don't know the Vindicator Assassin? It's a heavy support version of the Vindicare assassin. He carries a big cannon around kind of like Serious Sam and shoots S10 big pie plates away.


:laugh: can he still pick out his target?


----------



## Irbian

Yes, but you use a 20'' template while doing so


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> Yes, but you use a 20'' template while doing so


Callidus : You got a 20" pie plate in your pocket or you just happy to see me?


----------



## Irbian

Eversor: Vindicare pal, are you overcompensating something?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

http://ironshrinemaiden.deviantart....68950?q=gallery:ironshrinemaiden/113839&qo=22


----------



## Winterous

Love that one xD


----------



## Azezel

Stinger989 posted again. He's the chap who claims to have read the GK 'dex annd that it will be released April 2.



Stinger989 said:


> Sorry if its been awhile but i haven't had access to a computer.
> 
> there are no more stormtroopers in the codex except for as a inquisitorial henchmen. There is a way to get 2 wound terminators as troops in the codex rocking a 4++ and all basic grey knight troops come with a storm bolter and nemesis force weapon that counds as a power weapon but no bouns to strength and are all psy.
> 
> two psy powers they can use
> 
> hammerhand- justicar doubbles strength after modifications so is str 10
> ?- forget the name but test as a squad and then their storm bolters become str 5 for the turn.
> 
> they are going to be an elite army but if you run all troops you can get 60+ in a 2000pt list so really not that shabby.
> 
> there is ways to move units around for the FOC and other simillar shenanigans.
> 
> take as you want.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Ive been a bit busy with Cataclysm (leveld 2 worgen from 1-85 so far) so sorry for not updating the front page though all the relevant stuff has been posted back here.

Will update it with all the new rumours this weekend. Unless BC2 Vietnam consumes me...


----------



## coke123

It's nice to have someone place a specific date placed on it. I don't know why, but something more than just 'march-ish' instils me with much more confidence. and looking at those rumours, I'm thinking these guys might play a lot like a mech version of dante sanguard lists... Which makes very happy.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Have you guys seen the female Inquisitor for DoW Retribution?

Just looked across the forum and it seems noone has posted the picture yet.


Anyways, if you check on steam for retribution you can find this picture if you add the game to your wishlist and then check your wishlist.


----------



## Irbian

I think that stinger had say something like "henchman maxed out at 12"


----------



## boreas

This is from The Jeske over at B&C:



> As rumors goes . Looks like the GK termis are ready and there options for nemezis weapon class combi weapons . so not just SB , but other weapons too . Why does GW put only 1 of each on the sprue is something that will piss a lot of people to no end , but this is how they roll . dry.gif
> The specials seem to be ready too and they fall under the late 4th ed too many seals and extra stuff on the models cathegory . I understand that personal heraldy is GK thing , but going over the top with it doesnt help the model range a lot . At least the power armored dudes dont have nipples .


He's a bit of a harsh person, but he's also all over the European tournament scene I believe.

Phil


----------



## IanC

MadCowCrazy said:


> Have you guys seen the female Inquisitor for DoW Retribution?
> 
> Just looked across the forum and it seems noone has posted the picture yet.
> 
> 
> Anyways, if you check on steam for retribution you can find this picture if you add the game to your wishlist and then check your wishlist.


That looks like the With Hunter Inquisitor model (from the boxset) cept female. Nice!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

IanC said:


> That looks like the With Hunter Inquisitor model (from the boxset) cept female. Nice!


I also think it looks like a WH Inquisitor, I really hope we get to see SoB in retribution and it would make sense to have the WHs come to purge the Blood Angels with the help of the Adepta Sororitas.


----------



## Tuatara

IanC said:


> That looks like the With Hunter Inquisitor model (from the boxset) cept female. Nice!


I actually thought it looked a bit like Michael Jackson :laugh:


----------



## Irbian

News news news!



stinger said:


> Sorry if its been awhile but i haven't had access to a computer.
> 
> there are no more stormtroopers in the codex except for as a inquisitorial henchmen. There is a way to get 2 wound terminators as troops in the codex rocking a 4++ and all basic grey knight troops come with a storm bolter and nemesis force weapon that counds as a power weapon but no bouns to strength and are all psy.
> 
> two psy powers they can use
> 
> hammerhand- justicar doubbles strength after modifications so is str 10
> ?- forget the name but test as a squad and then their storm bolters become str 5 for the turn.
> 
> they are going to be an elite army but if you run all troops you can get 60+ in a 2000pt list so really not that shabby.
> 
> there is ways to move units around for the FOC and other simillar shenanigans.
> 
> take as you want.





stinger said:


> henchman squad is maxed out at 12





stinger said:


> yep cortez can make henchmen troops, so you can get stormtroopers but they are now bs3 and not nearly as good. crusaders with a marine cost and coming with a pw and ss is much more attractive.
> 
> the other real winner for henchmen are the humans that come with bolters for 5pts or storm bolters for 7pts at bs 3
> 
> other troops are the palidan termies with 2 wounds and a 5++ and can get fnp with the apothicary
> 
> pergitor squads with all the extra special weapons can become troops too.
> 
> vindicar assassin is 0-3 and have the special rounds that are quite nasty
> 4d6+rend vs. armor
> wound on a 2+
> take inv save away for the rest of the game
> 
> loses his night fight rule but still has stealth.
> 
> psy cannons are str 7 with rending
> 
> drednight with gattiling psy cannon is only str 5 but 12 shots.





stinger said:


> the palidan termies do not have EW.
> 
> havent read into the special chars much yet as i havent had time. but ill have a chance after x-mas.
> 
> some weapons that are new for the gk
> sword that grants +2 str
> halbriad that grants +2 int
> one more but don't remember.
> 
> playtesting the gk the army with full squads of crusader humans and assassins in a crusader will wipe most things in one assault phase, which i can see lots of people taking. I can also see lots of people running the bolter/SB spam since they are dirt cheep.
> 
> the basic grey knights top out at 20 pts little more for the justicar.


You know what? I like what Im hearing. Hope its true.


----------



## Winterous

I do too, sounds awesome!


----------



## Vhalyar

These pretty much support everything said by Blood of Kittens, although this guy still came out of blue so it's worth being cautious.


----------



## boreas

I love what I'm hearing. First of all, I've got 2 of each crusader models  Second, I like the idea of cheaper base PAGKs and buying special CC weapons This way, a basic 215 pts 10-models GK squad (let's say 20pts/model and 35 for the justicar) can still be an effective objective holder shooting 20 SB shots per turn and rocking PWs. Now, I can tool 1-2 squads with a few +2St weapons and push those in front with a LR or SR. Finally, add a dreadnight, some 2W GKT, a purgation squad or two to shoot vehicles and a vindicare to get PF/PK models out of the way! That would be a cool GK army with some =I= flavor!!!

Phil


----------



## Irbian

wait, 2 crusaders models? could you show me? Im intrigued.

OT: 


> there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
> gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.
> 
> stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.
> 
> the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.
> 
> normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex.
> 
> there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
> gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.
> 
> stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.
> 
> the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.
> 
> normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex.


----------



## Logyn

This "Dreadknight" thing sounds frigging scary. 12 s5 rending shots... *whistles* 

This round of rumoring looks good, and the weapon bonus thing sounds like something I heard personally from an in-the-know type source months ago, so it checks out in my book. It seems odd to me that the super-terminators are troops, though. I would expect 2 wound fnp termies to be elite or hq retinue material, though it could be an SC that makes them troops, so who knows. In any case, yay GK's!


----------



## Lucian Kain

Sounds awesome,hope this stuff works out its just too sweet.Three storm ravens,3 DreadKnights,3purgation squads,3swanky Terminator squads,a nice special character or two if that would make all the infintry troops and maybe an assassin to throw in a few problems Likeing the asthetics-Can't wait to see what we can do with the FOC: EVERYTHING IS SCARY IF THIS COMES TO FRUITION

*Was wondering what range the psycannon was comeing in at?*


----------



## boreas

Irbian said:


> wait, 2 crusaders models? could you show me? Im intrigued.
> 
> OT:


There's this one:










And this one:


----------



## GrizBe

Wait wait... 0-3 Vindicars? You telling me, we have a squad of 3 assasins, with bullets that take away invulnerable saves and ones that can do 4d6 penetration?

Holy Cheese Cannon Batman!

Some of that sounds a bit wishlisty or dubious to me.. but if its true.... :shok:


----------



## Irbian

Mmm maybe I was confused, Im sure that I have seen the second one too, but I didnt realize that they are differents. I dislike the head, I mean, one head that way is ok, but a full squad of them... I was thinking in another type of head for them. Or chaos warriors as proxy!


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> Wait wait... 0-3 Vindicars? You telling me, we have a squad of 3 assasins, with bullets that take away invulnerable saves and ones that can do 4d6 penetration?
> 
> Holy Cheese Cannon Batman!
> 
> Some of that sounds a bit wishlisty or dubious to me.. but if its true.... :shok:


Well, if each assassin counts as an individual elites choice, it mightn't be so wishlisty. That would mean that in order to take three of them you'd probably have to rule out Terminators as a choice, unless there is a way to make termies troops, as suggested. but even then you'd only have like fifteen models on the table, considering how much the assassins would have to cost.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Well, if each assassin counts as an individual elites choice, it mightn't be so wishlisty. That would mean that in order to take three of them you'd probably have to rule out Terminators as a choice, unless there is a way to make termies troops, as suggested. but even then you'd only have like fifteen models on the table, considering how much the assassins would have to cost.


And since all they have is their cover save pretty much you should be able to kill one with just 1 heavy bolter shooting at them.

Its like they have always been, easy to kill but they can do allot of damage if left alone.

Then again if I can field 3, and each uses the Turbo Penetrator I can do 6 wounds a turn to whatever I like (if the dice go my way).


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> And since all they have is their cover save pretty much you should be able to kill one with just 1 heavy bolter shooting at them.
> 
> Its like they have always been, easy to kill but they can do allot of damage if left alone.
> 
> Then again if I can field 3, and each uses the Turbo Penetrator I can do 6 wounds a turn to whatever I like (if the dice go my way).


Suddenly: Trygons, not so hot.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> Suddenly: Trygons, not so hot.


Looks at all the poison weapons in the DE codex, then at the Trygon....sigh, wont be using you until the next Tyranid codex comes out...


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Looks at all the poison weapons in the DE codex, then at the Trygon....sigh, wont be using you until the next Tyranid codex comes out...


Not to mention I can't laugh maniacally whenever I field my wraithlord...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maybe they will have something like MC always wounded on 6s with poison weapons in 6ed, it seems they are preparing for it with some of the weird entries in the newest codicies. Like the talos getting the Move Through Cover special rule, which is something a unit with the MC rule gets automatically at the moment.


----------



## Midge913

Some interesting stuff from bigred over at BOLS

"
Its late December and that can only mean...time for another Grey Knight rumor roundup!



Today we have a couple of summaries rounded up from the Lounge:


via Lerra:

"The GK codex has been finalized and is currently at the printers.

There is a unit in the codex called a "Dreadknight" which is basically a psychically-infused super-terminator that counts as a monstrous creature. It looks sort of like a penitent engine but better. It has a Dreadnought CCW, lots of wounds and 2+ save.

The codex looks like it's pretty sick and will be on par with the Space Wolves for overall power. Terminators can be made troops by a special character. GKs lose fearless and gain ATSKNF. Power Armor Grey Knights get squad-based psychic powers, including a power that is like Hammerhands. There is also a squad-based psychic power that increase the strength of their storm bolters to 5. 

Terminators have 2 wounds and come with a 4+ invulnerable save." 
~We hear those 2-wound termys are a seperate unit from the standard 1-wound ones.

via darklink


"yep cortez can make henchmen troops, so you can get stormtroopers but they are now bs3 and not nearly as good. crusaders with a marine cost and coming with a pw and ss is much more attractive.

the other real winner for henchmen are the humans that come with bolters for 5pts or storm bolters for 7pts at bs 3

other troops are the palidan termies with 2 wounds and a 5++ and can get fnp with the apothicary 

pergitor squads with all the extra special weapons can become troops too.

vindicar assassin is 0-3 and have the special rounds that are quite nasty
4d6+rend vs. armor
wound on a 2+
take inv save away for the rest of the game

loses his night fight rule but still has stealth.

psy cannons are str 7 with rending

drednight with gattiling psy cannon is only str 5 but 12 shots.

the palidan termies do not have EW. 

havent read into the special chars much yet as i havent had time. but ill have a chance after x-mas.

some weapons that are new for the gk
sword that grants +2 str
halbriad that grants +2 int
one more but don't remember.

playtesting the gk the army with full squads of crusader humans and assassins in a crusader will wipe most things in one assault phase, which i can see lots of people taking. I can also see lots of people running the bolter/SB spam since they are dirt cheep.

the basic grey knights top out at 20 pts little more for the justicar.

there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.

stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.\

the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.

normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex. "


----------



## Necrosis

Why are storm troopers bs 3 when in the Guard Codex they are bs 4. This makes no sense.


----------



## GrizBe

The more rumours I hear about the Dreadknight the more I like it... I hope they're true.


----------



## tu_shan82

Necrosis said:


> Why are storm troopers bs 3 when in the Guard Codex they are bs 4. This makes no sense.


Bear in mind it's only a rumor, I don't think they'll be BS3, it just seems silly to me.


----------



## Azezel

Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy? Say it ain't so.


----------



## Mathai

IF they are truly going to be BS3, I can never again paint my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers anything but white with black underarmor...


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> IF they are truly going to be BS3, I can never again paint my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers anything but white with black underarmor...


I'm sure this is a joke, but I don't understand the reference.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> I'm sure this is a joke, but I don't understand the reference.


Dude, you seriously don't get it?

Come on! Star Wars Stormtroopers. Ever noticed how in the movies they can't shoot for shit?


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Dude, you seriously don't get it?
> 
> Come on! Star Wars Stormtroopers. Ever noticed how in the movies they can't shoot for shit?


Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
*facepalmself*


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
> *facepalmself*


*does the same*


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> *does the same*


What, you palm my face? That's just creepy, man 
By facepalm self, I mean I'm facepalming at myself, not facing my own palm.


----------



## boreas

That was a BS3 facepalm if I ever saw one 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## TheKingElessar

Just read the latest update there - I find it hard to trust someone who's spelling is that atrocious. No joke.

Like, there IS a Spellcheck...pretty much everywhere. Interesting, none-the-less.


----------



## coke123

Hehehe... yeah. Although spelling (or an understanding of spellcheck) doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for internet access, unfortunately.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just saw the Ultramarines movie, I did get my hopes up for it after reading and hearing the positive comments people have been giving it.
Compared to the trailers I guess it was better though I can't really say there is much difference unless Im missing something. Then again my opinion is pretty biased as I have worked with 3D animation and modelling before so I notice flaws more easily than others I suppose.

All in all I think its worth seeing but dont have too high hopes, the pacing of the movie is pretty uneven imo and you would think they were getting shot at by Orks and not BS4 Chaos Space Marines. If this is BS4 then you could just as well fire straight into the air and count as BS3.

There are allot of things I dont like about the movie but for a first effort it scores pretty high. I really hope they make another one and hopefully with a bigger budget than this one received. The problem is getting sponsors though, its not like its possible to have the space marines drink coca cola and drive around in BMWs. Product placement is where allot of the money in movies come from but product placement in 40K or even Fantasy is a bit hard. Bah, we need to get some rich producer/director into warhammer...

All in all, see the movie but it is pretty meh...


----------



## coke123

Just send Martin Scorsese and Steven Spielberg an AoBR set. It might just get them into it...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> Just send Martin Scorsese and Steven Spielberg an AoBR set. It might just get them into it...


I wish 

Then again GW would probably protest wildly if someone with a 100-300 million dollar budget would want to make a movie.


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

MadCowCrazy said:


> ...Then again GW would probably protest wildly if someone with a 100-300 million dollar budget would want to make a movie.


I can already hear the Producer's 'creative input' on such a venture.

"Why should they fight Orcs? Is this the Lords of the Rings? Why don't we make the Space Marines fight bears with lasers and giant spiders instead!

Oh, and while you're at it; introduce a female Space Marine. She can be the much needed love interest of the main character. And for goodness sake give the main character hair.

Oh, I almost forgot! The Chaos thingy lord need a goatee. You can use mine as the model."


----------



## Irbian

Inquisitor_Win said:


> "Why should they fight Orcs? Is this the Lords of the Rings? Why don't we make the Space Marines fight bears with lasers and giant spiders instead!


Kevin smith win :victory:

I like this last rumours. I would be happy with a codex like this. But I miss the jetbikes thing


----------



## coke123

Jetbikes sound like a cool idea, until you realise that they'd probably do them in a similar fashion to Shining Spears- i.e. utter fail. Unless you could give them psycannons...


----------



## Irbian

Im hungry... hungry for words? no! hungry for wooooooorms hahahha oh shut up

sorry for the off topic

so, I want rumours, something to chew and bikes or jetbikes for my gk (if I have bikes, Ill use them to proxie jetbikes)


----------



## Mathai

Well remember that for Grey Knights, It would be T5 so there would be that to help them not suck as much as Shining Spears. If they were the same price as the SS, then I think for Grey Knights it wouldnt be nearly as...unfortunate as the idea is in the Eldar codex.


----------



## coke123

It'd still almost certainly only be worth the points on the charge. Meaning if they didn't die, they'd quite possibly get tarpitted. Meaning they'd need hit and run, and I just don't see how they could justify this from a fluff perspective.


----------



## GrizBe

Its pretty much been confirmed that the Jetbike idea was scrapped for GK's. There was concept art for them, but it wasn't carried on. Stickmonkey and several others have said this.


----------



## coke123

We know, just talking hypothetically. Might as well, it's not like we have much else to discuss.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

lordjerry777 pointed me to the new Badab War thing from forge world

He pointed out that the Inquisitor =][= had a spider in it, I have seen the symbols from allot of ordos and lesser ordos but I have never seen a spider in it. It also seems like an hourglass on the spiders back.
Normally an hourglass is a symbol associated with death and your lifespan can be measured in a hourglass.
There is one Ordo that specializes in death and undeath, it so happens to be the Ordo Im basing my armies on. Ordo Sepulturm, I have never seen their symbol so could this be related to them?
Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list somewhere with the icons of the different ordos? There are many I have never seen that I would like to know what looks like, Ordo Hospitaller for instance as well.










So what do you guys think? Anyone know the origins of this picture?

Did some photoshop editing to turn the book so you can see the picture better.


----------



## boreas

Well, the Black Widow spider has a red hourglass on it's abdomen... Could it be related? 

Phil

edit: apart from a guy who converted female marines and called them the Black Widows Company, I can't find anything WH40k related...


----------



## Bindi Baji

I vaguely remember a similar picture representing Ordo Chronos, but I doubt it's related to them.
Could be Ordo Sicarius although i'm still unconvinced.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list somewhere with the icons of the different ordos?


GW themselves have purposely been vague and have retconned various Ordo in, and out, and on occasion back in, to existance.

As such a comprehensive list probably doesn't exist


----------



## mahavira

Anyone have Blood of Martyrs yet? Both that and Retribution promise grist for the rumor mill, though how much GW talks to Fantasy Flight Games or Relic about coming changes to the range is another issue. Also it seems that 2011 is Year of the Battle Sister - a novel and an audio novel, which is probably more Sororitas content than all previous years put together. All seems to by Martyred Lady - are they the Ultramarines of the Sororitas or something?


----------



## TheKingElessar

mahavira said:


> All seems to by Martyred Lady - are they the Ultramarines of the Sororitas or something?


......YES.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Also it seems that 2011 is Year of the Battle Sister


EXACTLY!!!
This is why I believe it would be an AWESOME idea for GW to create a starter set with Necrons vs Sisters of Battle. It would be a radical idea for them to do this but it would be soooo cool...

*tells the voices in his head to stop bickering*


----------



## Kettu

mahavira said:


> All seems to by Martyred Lady - are they the Ultramarines of the Sororitas or something?


I would say yes but Ultramarines win from time to time. Martyred Lady doesn't even get that.

On the subject of Blood of Martyrs, I would have had a copy by now and scanned up selected pages but with Australia seemingly unable to get a single copy in and me coming down with a sudden and serious case of No Money Syndrome :alcoholic:, I had to place those plans on pause until next year when I'll just order a cheaper copy overseas. (Even with currency exchange and shipping, it's still the cheaper option)

Also, I do wish that next year is Sisters but after Faith and Fire's mere ho-hum plot with more holes then Swiss-cheese, Fireborn's snuff-tacular time and with the new Sister Audio-book allegedly being written by Sandy_-can't-write-sisters-to-save-his-life-_Mitchell, I don't hold hope for BL at this point.

Then, also, with what's on the front page... '_Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011._'
This would mean Sisters are not till late 2012 at the absolute earliest. More then likely they'll be 2013.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The sad part is most people could write the rules for a codex is less than 1 week and start playtesting after that and have a very balanced codex within 6months. Something that takes GW 12 years to do it seems with DE.

GW will fail simply because they dont update the rules fast enough, in this day and age where people expect bugfixes and balance changes weekly if things are broken waiting 10+ years before an update is simply unacceptable and people will get bored waiting.

Fuck the models, I can play with count as or old models, I cant play with outdated and unbalanced rules.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> GW will fail simply because they dont update the rules fast enough


SOB will be the last big codex project we'll see, 
after that it will be smaller projects which should lead to quicker codex updates, 
I believe GW are looking to add a few people to the codex writing staff, 
unfortunately whilst this was in the planning stage they lost a few of the people already writing codexes


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> Anyone have Blood of Martyrs yet? Both that and Retribution promise grist for the rumor mill,


Yo.

There's nothing in Blood of Martyrs which I'd call even a hint of things to come. Most of it is either lifted wholesale from the 2e codex, or logical extrapolations therefrom.

I suspect that GW itself has little idea where it wants to go with a putative new SoB codex.



MadCowCrazy said:


> EXACTLY!!!
> This is why I believe it would be an AWESOME idea for GW to create a starter set with Necrons vs Sisters of Battle.


Whilst it would be good for those of us who play one (or both) of those armies - it would not be a good starter set. The point of a starter set is to get new players into the hobby - playing Space Marines (for legitimate economic reasons).

Both Sisters and Necrons are unknown, shooty, non-horde non-elite forces with 3+ saves and funky nonstandard rules. Little Timmy has never heard of either of them and he doesn't want to 'be' the bad guys or the girls.

Space Marines Vs 'nids or Space Marines Vs Orks are simple, obvious and recognisable (in archetype, even if not in specifics) to those outside the hobby. The armies are very different and require little in the way of detailed rules explanation.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So starting from 6ed the dexes will be smaller? If they become smaller (i.e no fluff?) then there would be no point for printed dexes right?
They should have the rules as PDF and a print on demand service if you want the codex. That way people could try out new armies and they could update them more regularly.


----------



## GrizBe

I think Bindi meant smaller projects rather then smaller codexes.... Afterall, GW tried to do smaller codexs which were pretty much just the rules, and look how badly they sold. People like the fluff, so its stupid to remove it.

SoB's need a complete rewrite, just like GK's do and DE did, and thats a big project. 

Now, updating the nilla SM codex for instance is a small project, as thats just rules tweaks and a little updated fluff rather then a total rewrite.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> I think Bindi meant smaller projects rather then smaller codexes...


indeed I did


----------



## asianavatar

> SoB's need a complete rewrite


Really, do they??? They could use some fluff update, new models and maybe some updated rules with point costs. But they no way need a rewrite on the vein of GK or DE. SOB are still competitive


----------



## tu_shan82

Hey guys and gals, I found this thread over at Librarium Online about GK concept art, but when I click on the link in the guy's post it says I need to sign in to view the content. I'm not joining their crappy forum just to see a couple of pictures, so long story short, can someone who is already a member of their site copy the pictures and post them up over here for us to see. There will be a reward of some rep from me if you do.


----------



## Tuatara

tu_shan82 said:


> Hey guys and gals, I found this thread over at Librarium Online about GK concept art, but when I click on the link in the guy's post it says I need to sign in to view the content. I'm not joining their crappy forum just to see a couple of pictures, so long story short, can someone who is already a member of their site copy the pictures and post them up over here for us to see. There will be a reward of some rep from me if you do.


No need to sign up to this one, but you do have to do a bit of looking around.

http://sttheo.cghub.com/images/page:5/view:detailed/


----------



## Azezel

asianavatar said:


> Really, do they??? They could use some fluff update, new models and maybe some updated rules with point costs. But they no way need a rewrite on the vein of GK or DE. SOB are still competitive


While still competitive (er, sort of, we've got one good unit in most slots, and a ton of rending flamers at any rate) we still need a huge re-write.

People say that the sisters are just female Marines, and while I disagree, it's easy to see why they think that since most of the things that once made the army unique (gameplay wise) have since been incorprated into one or more Marine 'dex. Legend has it the Black Templar 'dex was going to include Acts of Faith at one point, though I don't full trust the source of that legend.

Simply re-pointing the units we have now will not cut it - the army list needs rebuilding from top to bottom.

We need:

More tanks - ideally not based on the Rhino.
Fast Attack that isn't just regular sisters with more special weapons
Infiltrators
Almighty anti-psyker rules and options
Another _Sororitas_ troop choice (not space marine scouts with boobs)
Additional Acts of Faith
A Living Saint that makes the Nightbringer look like a snotling
A Sororitas special character who is actually alive
More HQ choices that are actually worth considering
Sisters non Militant (Hospitalier & Pronatus are the obvious ones)

That's just off the top of my head, and I don't doubt that it can be done - all of the 5e codices that I've read are very cool, or, at least, as cool as it's possible to be and still feature Space Wolves.

In fact, simply looking at other 5e codices will demonstrate how much must be added to bring the Sisterhood up to scratch.


----------



## tu_shan82

OK folks GK concept art courtesy of Tuatara.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Love the squared toes on them. I think that makes them stand out a little more.I understand it is merely concept art but that is one thing I hope that they keep.


----------



## Bindi Baji

tu_shan82 said:


> OK folks GK concept art courtesy of Tuatara.


Whilst it's good,
it's *not GW* concept art i'm afraid
and by that I mean it's not by someone working for GW


----------



## Inquisitor_Win

"But, my Lord; is that legal?" [I can't believe I just quoted Episode I]

Seriously though, it's just a copy-paste of several fan-art work of an artist called St. Theo.

This is the link to his page:St.Theo's Devinatart page

His art is amazing but those 'concept art pics' were done in 2009.

I hope this helps.


----------



## mahavira

Kettu said:


> I would say yes but Ultramarines win from time to time. Martyred Lady doesn't even get that.
> 
> Also, I do wish that next year is Sisters but after Faith and Fire's mere ho-hum plot with more holes then Swiss-cheese, Fireborn's snuff-tacular time and with the new Sister Audio-book allegedly being written by Sandy_-can't-write-sisters-to-save-his-life-_Mitchell, I don't hold hope for BL at this point.
> 
> Then, also, with what's on the front page... '_Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011._'
> This would mean Sisters are not till late 2012 at the absolute earliest. More then likely they'll be 2013.


Be fair, they technically win in Faith and Fire, though I grant that even appearing in that book counts as a loss. I don't know whether Sandy Mitchell CAN'T write Sisters or just doesn't want to because they don't fit with his smug and cynical main character (mind controlled SoB in Last Stand suggests can't and didn't bother reading the background either) - I will actually be interested to see Emperor's Finest just to see if he maintains his oily contempt for anyone with the remotest degree of piety in the face of Space Marines.



asianavatar said:


> Really, do they??? They could use some fluff update, new models and maybe some updated rules with point costs. But they no way need a rewrite on the vein of GK or DE. SOB are still competitive


Even assuming all entries in the codex are good (and they aren't by any stretch), any 5th edition codex has at least 50% more unit types, the Act of Faith mechanic is quite clunky compared to anything you'll find in even fourth edition. 



Azezel said:


> While still competitive (er, sort of, we've got one good unit in most slots, and a ton of rending flamers at any rate) we still need a huge re-write.
> 
> People say that the sisters are just female Marines, and while I disagree, it's easy to see why they think that since most of the things that once made the army unique (gameplay wise) have since been incorprated into one or more Marine 'dex. Legend has it the Black Templar 'dex was going to include Acts of Faith at one point, though I don't full trust the source of that legend.
> 
> Simply re-pointing the units we have now will not cut it - the army list needs rebuilding from top to bottom.
> 
> We need:
> 
> More tanks - ideally not based on the Rhino.
> Fast Attack that isn't just regular sisters with more special weapons
> Infiltrators
> Almighty anti-psyker rules and options
> Another _Sororitas_ troop choice (not space marine scouts with boobs)
> Additional Acts of Faith
> A Living Saint that makes the Nightbringer look like a snotling
> A Sororitas special character who is actually alive
> More HQ choices that are actually worth considering
> Sisters non Militant (Hospitalier & Pronatus are the obvious ones)
> 
> That's just off the top of my head, and I don't doubt that it can be done - all of the 5e codices that I've read are very cool, or, at least, as cool as it's possible to be and still feature Space Wolves.
> 
> In fact, simply looking at other 5e codices will demonstrate how much must be added to bring the Sisterhood up to scratch.


I think you're out of luck on the tanks not being on the Rhino chassis, and I'd add a completely different system for acts of faith (akin to IG orders or possibly exarch powers) and a bottom up redo of certain units (Repentia, we're all looking at you). Oh, and before anything else, either remove land raiders altogether or give them the same rules as for everyone else's land raiders.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

mahavira said:


> Oh, and before anything else, either remove land raiders altogether or give them the same rules as for everyone else's land raiders.


You mean everyone else's except chaos....


----------



## IanC

Yllib Enaz said:


> You mean everyone else's except chaos....


Which are cheaper to account for said difference.


----------



## Katie Drake

I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex, so that means the book (Codex: Grey Knights) should be out soon.

I was allowed to ask three questions about the Codex.

Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?

A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.

Q2: What are the possible Troops choices in the Codex?

A: Power Armored Grey Knights and the aforementioned Terminators.

I didn't get the impression that there was any FoC switchery available which would be strange but not impossible.

Q3: How does the Stormraven differ from the one in Codex: Blood Angels?

A: It's a Fast Attack choice, has a different weapon upgrade and the pilots are psykers (which I took to mean that the Stormraven could either cast or benefit from psychic powers).

A lot of this is just confirmation of what we've already heard, but hopefully it's still useful. I haven't read this thread to make sure that all of this hasn't been repeated, so feel free to delete if it's just mindless repetition.


----------



## raven925

Katie Drake said:


> I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex, so that means the book (Codex: Grey Knights) should be out soon.
> 
> I was allowed to ask three questions about the Codex.
> 
> Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?
> 
> A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.
> 
> Q2: What are the possible Troops choices in the Codex?
> 
> A: Power Armored Grey Knights and the aforementioned Terminators.
> 
> I didn't get the impression that there was any FoC switchery available which would be strange but not impossible.
> 
> Q3: How does the Stormraven differ from the one in Codex: Blood Angels?
> 
> A: It's a Fast Attack choice, has a different weapon upgrade and the pilots are psykers (which I took to mean that the Stormraven could either cast or benefit from psychic powers).
> 
> A lot of this is just confirmation of what we've already heard, but hopefully it's still useful. I haven't read this thread to make sure that all of this hasn't been repeated, so feel free to delete if it's just mindless repetition.


Bitchin :biggrin:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Katie Drake said:


> I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex


It's all quite plausible as the codex only went to the printers on the 16th of this month (it was originally due earlier I believe), 
bearing in mind they finished for xmas a few days later it'll probably start printing on, or around the 3rd


----------



## Katie Drake

Bindi Baji said:


> It's all quite plausible as the codex only went to the printers on the 16th of this month (it was originally due earlier I believe),
> bearing in mind they finished for xmas a few days later it'll probably start printing on, or around the 3rd


Care to confirm or deny anything else I said?  Would be nice to have another reliable person give this the thumbs up if at all possible.


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex, so that means the book (Codex: Grey Knights) should be out soon.


Yay! You've just made my day (assuming you're correct)!



Katie Drake said:


> I was allowed to ask three questions about the Codex.


What is your name?
What is your quest?
What is your favourite colour?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Monty Python FTW.



Katie Drake said:


> Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?
> 
> A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.


The only Space Wolf player in my group recently took up competitive rowing, so I've no idea about wolves. What do GH cost?



Katie Drake said:


> Q2: What are the possible Troops choices in the Codex?
> 
> A: Power Armored Grey Knights and the aforementioned Terminators.
> 
> I didn't get the impression that there was any FoC switchery available which would be strange but not impossible.


Not sure that I'm happy with Terminators being troops without a character switching them around. There has to be some negative...Else why even bother with power armour, except for low point games? Not to mention that I personally feel that terminators should stay as the elite of pretty much any force. Oh well, we shall see.



Katie Drake said:


> Q3: How does the Stormraven differ from the one in Codex: Blood Angels?
> 
> A: It's a Fast Attack choice, has a different weapon upgrade and the pilots are psykers (which I took to mean that the Stormraven could either cast or benefit from psychic powers).


Coolio. So I guess Stormravens and Land Raiders aren't competing for the same FOC slots, just the points available... Nice! I also assume that Bloodstrike missiles have been appropriately renamed to something a tad more grey and knightly...

By the way, Bindi, the delay between a codex print and it's release is roughly three months, right? So if it's printed in January, that would mean we'd see it around... April?


----------



## fishywinkles

coke123 said:


> The only Space Wolf player in my group recently took up competitive rowing, so I've no idea about wolves. What do GH cost?


Grey Hunters are 1 point less than a fire dragon.


----------



## coke123

Ah, I see. Cheers.


----------



## fynn

fishywinkles said:


> Grey Hunters are 1 point less than a fire dragon.


thats a great help for players like me, that dont play SW or eldar.............lol


----------



## coke123

A GH is 1.5 Fire Warriors, meaning a PAGK will be 2 Fire Warriors. That's the standard 40k unit of point measurement, no?


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm.. 'Different Weapon Upgrade'.... Well I'm guessing it'll be 'Greydoom' Instead of Bloodstrike missles, but appart from that... Gattling Psycannon instead of Hurricane Bolters? :grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

What I would like to know is if there are really Ecclesiarchy units in the codex and if there are which ones. Penitent Engines in FA and Arco-Flagellants as retinue options have been mentioned before.

I would also like to know how much truth there is to the WD SoB update, if it really is to be released at the same time as codex : Grey Knights.
Another thing Id like to know is if the codex is really called Codex : Grey Knights or if its still Codex : Daemonhunters.
Daemonhunters would make more sense if all the different Ordos and even the Ecclesiarchy is present in the codex.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Katie Drake said:


> Care to confirm or deny anything else I said?


I wish I could, unfortunately I don't know, 
my info (as usual) is holier then swiss cheese on a shooting range.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> What I would like to know is if there are really Ecclesiarchy units in the codex and if there are which ones. Penitent Engines in FA and Arco-Flagellants as retinue options have been mentioned before.
> 
> I would also like to know how much truth there is to the WD SoB update, if it really is to be released at the same time as codex : Grey Knights.
> Another thing Id like to know is if the codex is really called Codex : Grey Knights or if its still Codex : Daemonhunters.
> Daemonhunters would make more sense if all the different Ordos and even the Ecclesiarchy is present in the codex.


Only Blood of Kittens has ever suggested that there might be Ecclesiarchy units in the GK 'dex. Only Dice like Thunder has ever hinted at a WD update for the Sisterhood.

Niether of these 'sources' can be called reliable, and none of the reliable sources has backed them up.

So it's not very likely.


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> What I would like to know is if there are really Ecclesiarchy units in the codex and if there are which ones. Penitent Engines in FA and Arco-Flagellants as retinue options have been mentioned before


I got super lucky and got to ask some more questions yesterday, but I really can't give out any details as I was somewhat sworn to keep my mouth shut. What I can say is that there aren't Ecclesiarchy units in Codex: Grey Knights. There are no Penitent Engines, though something similar is there and I didn't see Arco-Flagellants anywhere.

The rumor about a "special" Dreadnought is true. It has a really lame name (think Twilight).

I'd also like to retract my earlier statement about there being no FoC switching. I can't expand more on that (damned keeping promises  ) as much as it'd be fun to.

EDIT: By the way, nobody PM me asking for info as it's not gonna happen.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> The rumor about a "special" Dreadnought is true. It has a really lame name (think Twilight).


Oh god, they called it EDWARD? D:



Katie Drake said:


> EDIT: By the way, nobody PM me asking for info as it's not gonna happen.


*promptly PMs you 3 times*


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Oh god, they called it EDWARD? D:


I... *almost* wish they had. Almost.


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> I... *almost* wish they had. Almost.


I like it. It conjures pictures of an ancient, mighty dreadnought with a big... mustache, gripping a tea cup with its powerful claw.

_"What ho!" exclaimed Edward the Dreadnought. "Villainous Xenos dare show themselves at this sacred hour of 3pm? Uncouth curs!" he boomed, shaking his mighty fist in discontentment. The entire machine sprung to life and began to stride forward, "I shall teach them proper manners!" Edward added, not before turning to his techmarine and giving a farewell. "Pip pip old chap, keep the tea hot I'll be back shortly."_


----------



## Bindi Baji

Hmm, so what is Bella the moody Dreadnought armed with?, 
well apart from whinyness and poutyness anyway


----------



## Katie Drake

Bindi Baji said:


> Hmm, so what is Bella the moody Dreadnought armed with?,
> well apart from whinyness and poutyness anyway


I didn't ask.  I was pressed for time and it's difficult to think under that sort of pressure.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Katie Drake said:


> I didn't ask.  I was pressed for time and it's difficult to think under that sort of pressure.


Hey, you did good.

Bet GW screwed it up though, and this special Dread makes other Dreads Troops...but doesn't let them score.
:king:


----------



## Katie Drake

TheKingElessar said:


> Hey, you did good.
> 
> Bet GW screwed it up though, and this special Dread makes other Dreads Troops...but doesn't let them score.
> :king:


Actually, I sorta got the impression that the Twi-Dread (not it's real name) was the *only* Dreadnought. But I wasn't told one way or another so I can't say for sure.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Katie Drake said:


> Actually, I sorta got the impression that the Twi-Dread (not it's real name) was the *only* Dreadnought. But I wasn't told one way or another so I can't say for sure.


Orly? Even worse. The Ven Dread could have had a Direct Only upgrade to GK Ven Dread, and they would all have looked fucking incredible.

TL Incinerator Arms, TL Psycannons, TL MM...these could have been really insane but costly Ven Dreads that put the others to shame, and made Bjorn look like a pussy, while being balanced due to non-Scoring and Cost.

I hope you're wrong. 

...But I doubt I will get what *I* would like from this book.


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## raven925

Bindi Baji said:


> Hmm, so what is Bella the moody Dreadnought armed with?,
> well apart from whinyness and poutyness anyway


^WIN!

If its named after anything in Twilight, it sure as hell will not see any action on the table from me.:angry:


----------



## Catpain Rich

Bella means war in latin doesn't it?


----------



## aboytervigon

it's Italian for pretty.


----------



## Azezel

Catpain Rich said:


> Bella means war in latin doesn't it?


Close, you're thinking of 'bellum'.

And pretty would be better stated in the abstract as 'bellus' rather than 'bella'.


----------



## Tuatara

I heard the new dread was going to be called a Dreadknight. My source is not exceptionally reliable, but it does sound plausible.


----------



## boreas

Liked the nipples on the Sanguinary guard? I hear the Dread is called Jacob:










It's shirtless and shoot its twin gatling psycannon through its nipples. 

Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

Tuatara said:


> I heard the new dread was going to be called a Dreadknight.


Close, but not quite.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Close, but not quite.


Dreadward Cullen?
xD


----------



## Irbian

about st theo pictures, I believed that the armaggedon pictured was for GW but maybe Im wrong

katie drake, thanks for the info, hope youll be able to get more


----------



## Geist

I am particularly interested in Stormtroopers, whether they will be troops or not, and if they are making any in plastic. Any chance you can ask or hint if you already know?


----------



## Katie Drake

SteelSpectre said:


> I am particularly interested in Stormtroopers, whether they will be troops or not, and if they are making any in plastic. Any chance you can ask or hint if you already know?


Stormtroopers will be around, but not in their present form and won't have the same role that they currently have. I can't say more, but reading over other rumors should give you an idea.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd quite like to know more about this 'Super terminator, exo-walker, penitant engine suit' type thing myself... the more I hear about it the more interesting it sounds. 

I take it theres that thing, AND this 'special dread' from what I'm reading? Or are they the same unit?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> Dreadward Cullen?
> xD


ugh, terrible, just terrible


----------



## hungryugolino

Like GW writing?

Stormtrooper troops will be missed...


----------



## coke123

Unless there's the rumoured FoC trickery that will allow them to be troops. I doubt they'd make it impossible to have a stormtrooper army... unles they want people to jump over to guard...


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Aren't Stormtroopers a part of the swiss army knife unit known as the "Henchmen?" Coteaz makes that unit troops? If it pans out to be true I will be a happy duck.


----------



## coke123

That's what some are saying/speculating, at any rate.


----------



## hungryugolino

Oh, look! Counts-as...

Any news on plastic bitz for grey knight psychic hoods/ daemonhammers? Both would be great for conversions.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Counts-As Stormtrooper army would be great. So would the Counts-As Custodes I will eventually do.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

May can not seem to get here fast enough, I guess. I would really like to see the Grey Knight kits. After having seen the Hell Pit Abomination kit GW made I have to say they just keep getting better and better.


----------



## Midge913

Some new stuff from over at BOLS.


*Grenades* - ALL Grey Knights (even the Termys) are said to have frag & krag, as well as the return of some old chestnuts from the days of yore such as blind and psych-out options_ ~no idea on what those would do._

*Eversor Assassin* - This guy is said to get +d6 attacks on the charge, and comes equipped with 2+ poison equipment. _~YIKES, I hope he still blows up when he dies._

*GK Librarians* - Here is where it gets good. We've heard that a wider array of Librarian Ranks are available, some allowing over 2 powers per turn to be used_ ~Eat your heart out Eldrad! _ Some of the reported powers included crazy stuff like:
-the lowering of a target unit's toughness! _~Think of what that means for the T:3 races!_
-a "Stealth Kustom Force Field" that hands out the USR to all nearby friendlies.
-an "Inverse Gate" to yank a friendly unit from wherever, to right near the libby.

Very interesting. ​


----------



## boreas

I like this one:



> -the lowering of a target unit's toughness! ~Think of what that means for the T:3 races!


It's an elegant way to reduce to cost of GK (by removing the St6) yet still allow to wound more easily. Also, if it bring T3 to T2, St4 Gk will cause Instant Death. If it brings T4 to T3 (like Nids Warriors) St 7 psycannons will cause ID. etc...

Phil


----------



## IanC

psych-out? Could be like the Psyk-out Orbital Strike from the Witch Hunters codex, just localised as a grenade.


----------



## boreas

Or the psych-out grenades launcher on the FW LR redeemer. Those give Ini 10 on the charge!

Phil


----------



## coke123

Midge913 said:


> *Grenades* - ALL Grey Knights (even the Termys) are said to have frag & krag, as well as the return of some old chestnuts from the days of yore such as blind and psych-out options_ ~no idea on what those would do._


Interesting


Midge913 said:


> *Eversor Assassin* - This guy is said to get +d6 attacks on the charge, and comes equipped with 2+ poison equipment. _~YIKES, I hope he still blows up when he dies._


_

_Meh, he'll still cost a shitton for a single model that can be insta-killed. I'd rather the Dreadknight...


Midge913 said:


> *GK Librarians* - Here is where it gets good. We've heard that a wider array of Librarian Ranks are available, some allowing over 2 powers per turn to be used_ ~Eat your heart out Eldrad! _ Some of the reported powers included crazy stuff like


:laugh: My Eldar suddenly feel somewhat immasculated... and they're already pansies to start with.



Midge913 said:


> -the lowering of a target unit's toughness! _~Think of what that means for the T:3 races!_


_

_:laugh: Instant death to marines on S6? XD. Not too mention how much easier it will be to kill wraithlords. and it might become possible to kill plaguemarines with dakka...



Midge913 said:


> -a "Stealth Kustom Force Field" that hands out the USR to all nearby friendlies.


When they're rumoured to have Aegis upgraded to be nightfight, I'm not sure how much good this will be. Still, probably has its place.



Midge913 said:


> -an "Inverse Gate" to yank a friendly unit from wherever, to right near the libby.


So what, like GK's answer to Lash? Combine this with the toughness thing- pull infantry blobs off their objectives, make them T2, Storm Bolter the shit out of them and assault. Not only are they no longer on the objective, they're dead. Although considering the ubiquity of mech, this will probably suffer the same problems as Lash...


----------



## GrizBe

Interesting if they're true.... Psych-out... Possibly some sort of leadership test to break a unit? Blind... Reduce BS and WS? Something like a flash-bang grenade in real life?

Dunno about the Eversor, but I hope he explodes too... lol. It was always fun watching him getting killed, then taking everybody else with him.

Extra Psyker ranks makes sense when you consider that ALL GK's are psychic to start with, so you'd expect that the best of them would be better then a named character psyker. 

Lowering target toughness? Ouch.
Custom stealth feild? Interesting.
Basically a teleport out of danger move? Nice... can see the uses, but also the possible problems of it.


----------



## boreas

Well, rumors of DE 2nd wave in April. GK pushed back? Neverending storyyyyyyy... 

Phil


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> Interesting if they're true.... Psych-out... Possibly some sort of leadership test to break a unit? Blind... Reduce BS and WS? Something like a flash-bang grenade in real life?


Well if you do any research at all, you'll find that a Psyk-out grenade is basically an anti-Psyker grenade.
The Culexus assassin has them, at the moment.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> Well, rumors of DE 2nd wave in April. GK pushed back? Neverending storyyyyyyy...
> 
> Phil


If I remember correctly GW has said all the DE stuff will be out before the end of June.

So if we have O&G in March that leaves a 40k slot in April, some fantasy shit in May or LOTR then 40k in June.
So we might see GKs in April or June I reckon, we have seen a large increase in rumours though so Id hope for an April and if the dex has gone to printers now it should be ready for April.


----------



## GrizBe

Winterous said:


> Well if you do any research at all, you'll find that a Psyk-out grenade is basically an anti-Psyker grenade.
> The Culexus assassin has them, at the moment.


Ahh.. duh me. I'd forgotten about them...


Theres is one rumour I've been hearing lately from people in my local store, but I don't remember seeing it online anywhere, even though they're claiming its been online...

Apparently there is going to be a full GK Terminator command group. 

Anyone comment on that?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wouldnt that just be a GKTA boxed set? allowing you to create 5 GK Terminators with some extra bits for your leader or 2wound models?


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> GK pushed back?


how can something have been pushed back when it has not yet been given a firm release date?


----------



## GrizBe

MadCowCrazy said:


> Wouldnt that just be a GKTA boxed set? allowing you to create 5 GK Terminators with some extra bits for your leader or 2wound models?


I meant more along the lines of the Space Marine command squad, with the Champion, Standard Bearer etc then just a GKTA squad with added bits.

More Calgar and his Honour Guard all in TA to define it a bit better.


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> how can something have been pushed back when it has not yet been given a firm release date?


I meant pushed back from the conjectured April date (which was pushed back from the conejctured March date, etc). 

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> SOB will be the last big codex project we'll see,
> ((Snip))


Could you elaborate on this at all, Mr. Baji?

Does this mean you know _something_ about Codex SoB? Something other than 'it's coming, but don't hold your breath'. I realise you probably cannot tell us what you know, but do you know something?

Are you prepared to speculate or hint at all?

Also - if I were to suggest that a change in codex design philosophy might logically coincide with a new edition, would I be wide of the mark? Hypothetically?


----------



## TheKingElessar

I would be very gutted if a new Edition came out before every army had a 5e Codex. Especially the Tau and Black Templars.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> Are you prepared to speculate or hint at all?


no........................










SOB will be the last of the jurassic era codexes to be updated - GK, 'Crons, DE, GK, SOB & SW to a slightly lesser degree.

After the release of SOB there will be no codexes that need such a huge update, or so much work (not that CSM players will agree with that point).

Also, at or near to that point codexes should see an accelerated release plan so that no codex ever gets that far behind, that's the plan anyway


----------



## TheKingElessar

*Checks for Spoiler text*

Bindi - I agree and disagree with you...but, more importantly, would like your personal opinion on something sort of off-topic.

Do you think Chaos could be more fairly represented by having separate Codexes for Renegades and Legions? (Not, does GW think, because the answer to that is bound to be - 'some do, a lot don't. Either way, given the present number of book for both systems that need updating, it's unlikely to happen')

While that would give Chaos an unprecedented 3 total Codices in print at once, it still would pale next to the Imperial 8...(I just realised the Imperium provides half of our army possibilities. Holy crap.)


----------



## Azezel

Thanks anyway, BB.

Truth to tell, most chaos marine players seem fairly sound - it's just that the nuts make a disproportionate amount of noise.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

New Librarian Dreadnought Sprue
Except for the halberd I see nothing even remotely close to GK heraldry, does this mean there will be yet another dread sprue for the GK release? Like an upgrade sprue or something? Oh god, not direct only?! I hate that cause I cant get a discount when buying those


----------



## GrizBe

Maybe I'm going a bit blind, but... the front thats defiantaly the librarian dread one, with the hood and all... I can't see anything that looks remotely like a head/helmet to go in in... Maybe there is one more sprue?


----------



## coke123

Now, it might be the picture quality, but I can't see any Blood Angel Heraldry either. Could it be that they're just releasing a generic one with no heraldry, so it's sorta one size fits all?

On top of that, like Grizbe said, I doubt this would be a single-sprue kit.

Not to mention that if it did involve GK bits, then they'd pretty much be forced to announce the new codex- since the librarian dread isn't currently a GK unit...


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheKingElessar said:


> Do you think Chaos could be more fairly represented by having separate Codexes for Renegades and Legions?


I actually don't, 
that's not to say I have anything against the idea but I think given the work that went into the last SM/UltraSmurf codex and for that matter later codexes, shows that a CSM codex could be made that would suit most players tastes, with options to spare.

I would be highly surprised if the CSM that turns up next isn't one of the best GW codexes ever, 
if you read any interviews or attend a games day and listen to anyone of note you will see that everybody involved realises that the CSM codex didn't live up to expectations.

Rightio, that's enough CSM talk from me in an Inquisition thread......


----------



## TheKingElessar

Hrmm. I'm unconvinced (though I *DO* think it'll be very good, like the other 5e books) but I suppose we shall see.

As for the Libby dread sprue, no, it's hard to be sure, but nothing there seems overtly GK-related. Just seems usable for Furioso, Librarian and Death Company Dreadnoughts...though you could kitbash with Venerable Dreadnought for GKs.

Always possible the FW stuff will remain the only way to get a 'true' GK Dread for a while, like with Hydras. +Rep for providing picture.


----------



## Winterous

That Dreadnought sprue...
Is a Furioso sprue, not specifically Librarian.
There are 3 front-plates on there, top-left is Librarian, bottom-right is Death Company (you can see the X on its right breast), and top-right is, presumably, just a normal one.

You can also see a Meltagun and Heavy Flamer, options which the Librarian simply does not have access to.
Down the bottom-left of the picture, you can see 'talon' things, which are presumably Blood Claws.
The bottom-right, the shoulder thing seems very thin, I suspect that is the Magna-Grapple.
And just above that, is what would appear to be the Frag Cannon.

So, it's definitely the Furioso kit


----------



## cwcuran45

Hey Everyone, I hope you've had a great holiday season. I found this on warseer in the storm raven thread and thought I'd post it here as well.

"Originally Posted by DYoung 
Holy Crap! The Dreadnought looks awesome. No Grey Knight bits I notice, Looks like they have bodies for Furioso, Librarian and Death Company Dreadnoughts."

To which 75Hastings69 replied: 
"That's because the GK aren't getting a new dread, that rumour is incorrect, It's actually a walker type machine piloted by a GK termie for killing GD" 

Here's the link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282670&page=37

Biggest surprise to me is the Terminator Pilot


----------



## GrizBe

Thanks for that, but we've already heard that rumour... well, at least I have. Still nice to have a bit more comfirmation of it though.

I'm still wondering however, as there seems to be 2 rumours really.. one is some kind of special dread, and the other is this piloted exowalker... I can see overlaps, but from what I can tell they are two different units that are rumoured.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

GrizBe said:


> Thanks for that, but we've already heard that rumour... well, at least I have. Still nice to have a bit more comfirmation of it though.
> 
> I'm still wondering however, as there seems to be 2 rumours really.. one is some kind of special dread, and the other is this piloted exowalker... I can see overlaps, but from what I can tell they are two different units that are rumoured.


Doubt they are different. People are probably jumping to conclusions without all the info.

"Oh, walker, it must be a Dreadnought variant" or some such.


----------



## GrizBe

Probably... but theres too many conflcting rumours to make me think its just one unit... *shrugs* Who knows?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is a pic of the stormraven


----------



## Doelago

Looks even more awesome than before...


----------



## Katie Drake

Hey, quit trying to pass that picture off as yours. :laugh:


----------



## Winterous

Looks awesome 



Katie Drake said:


> Hey, quit trying to pass that picture off as yours. :laugh:


What do you mean?
He didn't actually claim it was his


----------



## coke123

I'd be happy with that Stormraven.


----------



## Lucian Kain

From that angle it dosn't look so ugly,still don't know about that dorscil intake or turret.
It looks reasonable enough otherwise.would like to see how the hurricane bolters mount/look.
...After thought or if the sponsons mount psycannons standard or the fabled S5 twelve shot version


----------



## Creon

I think form that angle it's not so hideous as we were led to believe. May be a terrible photograph left a bad tast in many's mouth about the Storm Raven.


----------



## Irbian

Stickmonkey said:


> Nothing positive here...
> 
> My sources are saying GK may be much later this year. Sources say that because the DE release was so successful, that's why we are seeing a shuffling to get more DE models out sooner. More a financial decision than production from what I'm hearing. Hope it's not true.


Ouch >_<. Yeah yeah, we dont have a fixed date blah blah but I was expecting GK since August for the rumours. And now it is pushed back again >_<. Sorry for being disapointed


----------



## boreas

boreas said:


> Well, rumors of DE 2nd wave in April. GK pushed back? Neverending storyyyyyyy...
> 
> Phil


Quoting myself...


----------



## GrizBe

Don't blaim you.... I think its kinda bollocks though that GW would push GK's back on 'financial' grounds.... I mean, commen sense logic dictates that you MUST make more money out of a new codex launch then a 2nd wave release...

Think about it... 2nd wave, most DE players already know if they want to use the units they haven't got models for. A) If they don't want to use them, they won't buy new models. B) If they do want to use them, a large portion of players will have already converted their own.

New codex though... You get people buying the codex who both want it and have been waiting for it, then you also get the 'I'm interested, but not sure' buyers too. Plus... you get every GK player old and new buying new plastic GKPA's and GKTA, various characters, vehicles etc, and generally a heck load more buying as people have to build an army, rather then just add one or two new units to an existing one.


----------



## Azezel

I think it's actually illegal to complain that Dark Eldar are getting some support. If it's not, it should be.

Shame for GK players but honestly? Let the poor DE sods have a moment in the sunlight.


----------



## GrizBe

Lets see... DE players... New Codex, Completely New Models, New Characters, Feck loads of webpage and WD space devoted to them...

GK players... Even more outdated codex then the old DE one and has been reduced to a cut down .pdf, constantly pushed back release dates, no clue whats going on, no models for sale in stores and what you can get is metal only...

Oh yes, DE players are getting a raw deal right now.


----------



## TheKingElessar

GKs weren't more outdated, because they haven't been waiting 12 years for a book. 12 years ago they didn't HAVE a book, but still.

They've had 2, DE had 1 and then the same one, with Vehicle Upgrades added.

And I haven't seen ANY Dark Eldar players complain about any 'raw deal' - they were relatively patient, compared to this GK stuff.

- Don't get me wrong, I want you to get a new Dex too...but Blood Angels had a PDF for like 3 years. Get over this sense of entitlement.


----------



## Azezel

Apparantly when Jess said he hadn't started sculpting plastic sisters, that didn't mean what we all thought it meant.



Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in the rumor section on purpose, but it's more of a review.
> 
> I got to get a good look at a new protoype basic sister, and I'm hoping one of our other sources can sneak a picture out once they see it. The reason is, this sister has a "veil". Words cannot describe...the detailing is phenomenal. The veil is a separate piece, but it looks gorgeous. If they can get this right in molding the sisters wave will be beautiful models. If you've seen this one, you know what I mean... I begged to take a photo for here, but no luck.
> 
> The model maintains the existing armor styling, but with more filigree. Little details like lace boot tops, small details in the armor. Look at the evolution of daemonettes to wyches, and think what the next step would be.
> 
> The bolters however are now streamlined, they are not the marine bolter we've known and loved, but still recognizable. Feminine.
> 
> I know I'm getting folks worked up, but sisters are still a long way off, it will be a long wait. So temper any enthusiasm.


Boom.

Possibilities:

Jess Goodwin really hasn't done anything, but someone else (Juan Dias?) has.

Jess hasn't done anything except knock out a prototype to play with ideas he had.

Jess was deliberately trying to throw people off the scent.


He did say that he wanted to put scrollwork on the armour (spaulders, as I recal) - that might be the filigree SM mentions.


Also:



Stickmonkey said:


> On the sisters front, women in armor move slower than men, but they look better doing it. Sisters like their rides.


Moves slower - so still a long, long way off, nothing we didn't know, but rides?

Could it really be the Sisters cavalry that I've always wished for?

Both of these make me happy in my gentleman's area.


----------



## GrizBe

Stop being an idiot Elessar... I'm merely point out that GK's are just as outdated as DE were and that its damned annoying for a release date to get pushed back and pushed back when we know stuff has been done for it, then we get crud about an army thats only been out a few months second wave being far more important. 

Sorry if I want to complain, but DE players have got more then enough to be happy about, while arguably an army thats got far more support and interest feel like its being ignored.


----------



## boreas

I also have a problem with DE/BA 2nd wave taking a full 6 months on the calendar to themselves. Heck, I'd take the number of models the DE had in their OLD codex (not the 2 GK had: TAGK and PAGK). Heck, I'd take a PDF update for my Necrons, Sisters AND GK RFN! I'm happy for BA and DE and all, but keep the train moving. There is a lot of players out there GW, and players that play DE+GK or BA+GK are probably less than 5% of them. If you look at it, with 12 armies, even if all WH40k players play SM plus another army a single codex release targets about 8-10% of players. There's a lot of money to go around!

But hey, GW has us by the balls so what can we do but roll over and thank them  Or... I could get all my friends to sell the armies they've collected and painted for the last decade so I can sell mine and we could all get into another futuristic miniature wargame! 

Phil


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Hmmm ... Boreas you sound kinda like me. GW has fucked us for so long that fucking us is like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. Until I get an email saying "Incoming" I believe half of what I see and nothing of what I hear.


----------



## raven925

I can see Gk's becoming the next DE, rumors rumors rumors then 10 years later......


----------



## TheKingElessar

BUT you all KNOW that the GK dex will be out next year, unless GW/the world ends first.

The books are being printed RIGHT NOW.

I had years of DE players whining on the internet, and I sucked it up because it was fair. GK have issues, sure - and you DESERVE a new book as much as the Necrons do...or roughly as much.

But moaning helps nothing - even doesn't make you feel better, because you amplify each other's anger and depression over the issue.

I know you complain because you _care_, and I'd rather that than you quit the Hobby (even if I don't agree with your posts, most of the time, or you call me an idiot [GrizBe] ) - But you KNOW that you're not being abandoned. DE never had that...especially since the EoT campaign was seen as a way to Squat them by many...including myself, tbh.

Boreas - you have it particularly unlucky, and I think this skews your perceptions a little. When I joined this Forum you weren't as angry as you seem now...granted, you'd been waiting a lot less time and seen fewer Marine Variants overtake you again...but still.

As for Azezel's post...firstly, it's Jes. Jess is a girl's name. :grin:
Rides almost certainly refers to Rhinos/Immos/whatever other Transport options they have. SoB Cavalry would be stupid, IMO.

Of course, I would also have said that about Space Wolves.

Overall...If I didn't respect your opinions more than those of a certain famous troll around here, I would just put you on the Ignore list too.

The fact I haven't, hopefully, means something - and you will take what I said on board.

It's very difficult, as an Ork, Eldar and Chaos player, to hear others moan about their next Codex not being for 6 months, regardless of gap, when *none* of mine are likely before 2013, and it won't be all three until 2014, at least...and then we have 6e buggering them all again.


----------



## Irbian

Who is that famous troll?

By the way... sisters!



Stickmonkey said:


> EDITED:
> 
> I've had a chance to gather notes and thoughts a bit more now that I've completed my work today and had time to get a pint and a bite...
> 
> So to clarify a few bits.
> 
> The lace, is not laces, its lace around the top of the boot. at the knee. the model has like a pirate style boot and the lace is around the top edge..or thats my take away of what it was.
> 
> The bolter is still most certainly a bolter, but look at the existing line, the bolters are disproportioned...especially the bolt pistols...to the models. the new ones are much more like the AoBR SM bolters. With straps, etc. and are separate pieces from arms. they "look" slighty thinner than a SM bolter and have a different shape to the over all gun, but they are not "Girly" i did not have a SM handy to compare directly, so it could just be impression. Also, they have abandoned the banana clip completely it seems.
> 
> the veil covered the whole head, its an alternate to the helmet, the face piece is just separate. think cobra commander vs vera wang wedding.
> 
> the torso has small details in the corset, i think skulls.
> 
> the tabard between the legs had flur de lis details.
> 
> there are "sleeves" similar to the image on 19 of the current WH book. similar, but not identical.
> 
> I'll reiterate this is a prototype though, not what has necessarily been approved. But as a beta stage model, i really like it, and I think a teaser of it would really build up excitement...hint hint GW overlords... Maybe wait til closer to release...
> 
> Overall when i see the current sisters their are very "bulky" these new ones are very graceful, but in a brutal way. the poses are much more dynamic and agressive. not everyone has their feet planted shoulder width apart torso straight on to their opponents....
> 
> I was told there will be numerous head options for the sisters, in the way theyve been doing all releases, but the "bob cut" is the preferred hairstyle.
> 
> I'm also told sisters repentia, priests, celestians, and seraphim will get new models with seraphim likely to adopt jump packs similar to the sanguinary guard...though I saw no evidence of this. No word on arco flaggelants.
> 
> Penitent engine is getting reworked as well.
> 
> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.
> 
> Inq forces should all be updated by the GK release, so no news there for SoB, but they are expected to be present in the codex.
> 
> I also know of a few more "new" units that are being developed.
> 
> Cheers.


Source

Edit: Whoops! Didnt see the azazel part, I remove the coincident part


----------



## Winterous

Fucking beautiful.
I'm liking the idea of a new Boltgun design, bout time we got one that's a suitable size for a human!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The sisters do use the Godwyn-Deaz Pattern bolters so they should look a bit different from the SM equivalents.

Lets hope for more flamers with scopes on them  Sniper flamers ftw!


----------



## Azezel

TheKingElessar said:


> As for Azezel's post...firstly, it's Jes. Jess is a girl's name. :grin:
> Rides almost certainly refers to Rhinos/Immos/whatever other Transport options they have. SoB Cavalry would be stupid, IMO.
> 
> Of course, I would also have said that about Space Wolves.


Oops. Force of habit, I know someone called Jess.

Anyway - while I agree that Space Wolves are silly, I don't think the idea of cavalry in 40k is necessarily a bad one. Besides which, _someone_ must like Space Wolves (two people if you include Phil Kelly), so there's room for differing opinions in the game.

The Sisters have a very powerful flavour of the Knights Templar - a religious order of knights founded to guide and protect pilgrims. The Sisterhood had considerably more knightly flavour than Marines do, even the BT are pretty much just thugs with swords.

Cavarly would tie in with the feel of the sisterhood nicely, and would be useful to them in-universe, given that more than most armies, they would have to do a lot of city fighting where large vehicles are impractical.

I've long wanted Dominion squads (a fairly half-arsed idea for a unit) to be replaced with cavalry.



Azezel said:


> Replace Dominions with Cavalry. Horses (or perhaps some sort of flying phoenix-looking mount?) or Jetbikes (that look quite a lot like pegassi) and lances that work as flamers (Upgradeable to Meltas) during the shooting phase.


So long as the mounts look gothic as all hell it could work very well, methinks.



Stickmonkey said:


> On the sisters front, women in armor move slower than men, but they look better doing it. Sisters like their rides.





Stickmonkey said:


> And of course you saw my Jan rumor post. To provide a clue, Dominion squads.


It could happen. a man can dream. _Oh yes, a man can dream..._


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Anyway - while I agree that Space Wolves are silly, I don't think the idea of cavalry in 40k is necessarily a bad one. Besides which, _someone_ must like Space Wolves (two people if you include Phil Kelly), so there's room for differing opinions in the game..


This is where all those people who go "HORSES ARE DUMB!" are just flat-out fucking WRONG.
Rough-Riders would be better off with motorbikes? Sure, then they (unlike super-human brain-splitting guys in tank armour) have to focus on riding the bike, and lancing comes second or they're just going to fall off.
HORSES DRIVE THEMSELVES, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE GOOD FOR LANCING!

Furthermore, a horse is far more effective at navigating difficult terrain than a bike is, and scouting / raiding being one of the primary uses that Rough Riders are for, it makes a lot of sense that they'll need to navigate some fairly hostile terrain.

That, and cavalry are fucking badass looking.


And I like Space Wolves 
A lot of people like them; sure, they're a bit corny, but they're SPACE VIKINGS!


And yes, I too very much hope that the Sororitas get some hot horse action going on.
...That didn't come out right.


----------



## GrizBe

I have one thing to say about Cavalry in 40k....










We all know we'd buy them if they really existed for our armies. :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> I have one thing to say about Cavalry in 40k....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We all know we'd buy them if they really existed for our armies. :biggrin:


*cough SPACEWOLVESMAKEANEASYTRANSITIONINTOSPACEBEARS cough*


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> It could happen. a man can dream. _Oh yes, a man can dream..._


:laugh: Umm... keep those dreams to yourself, okay?



Winterous said:


> That, and cavalry are fucking badass looking.


When done right. Some sisters riding a Pegasus type-thing would be awesome.



Winterous said:


> And yes, I too very much hope that the Sororitas get some hot horse action going on.
> ...That didn't come out right.


Oh so wrong... but oh so right...

And on awesome 40k cavalry models, I came across this when working on my Carnosaur for my Lizardmen


----------



## boreas

You're right, TKE. Spilling our anger over forums is not productive. But still, it's pretty much the only place we can  Every once in a while (2-3 times per year) I do write a firm but polite letter to GW to explain my anger towards how they release rules. I hope a lot of other gamers do the same. As a business owner, I try to deal with customer complaints to make them happy to come back to my store. I'm not sure GW does/can do the same, but there's no harm in trying. 

All in all, this situation at GW is anormal. I'm not sure what the exact cause is. Backlog from "lazy" years during the 2000-2005 period? I really think the gamer's pool can accept a lot more products every year than GW seems to think. I, for one, am a big spender (think "reaver" big) yet I haven't bought a single wh40k mini in over a year. I did get myself a small (2000pts if I stretch) LM army. I bought vallejo paints, Newton&Windsor brushes, painting book, painting DVDs and am comtemplating buying a PS3 to occupy my time when my LM army is completed. I short, GW is losing money from me as they are from many others, I'm sure. On the other spectrum, I'm pretty sure players with very restricted means will wait for "the" army to come out before they commit to buy...

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> This is where all those people who go "HORSES ARE DUMB!" are just flat-out fucking WRONG.
> Rough-Riders would be better off with motorbikes? Sure, then they (unlike super-human brain-splitting guys in tank armour) have to focus on riding the bike, and lancing comes second or they're just going to fall off.
> HORSES DRIVE THEMSELVES, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE GOOD FOR LANCING!
> 
> Furthermore, a horse is far more effective at navigating difficult terrain than a bike is, and scouting / raiding being one of the primary uses that Rough Riders are for, it makes a lot of sense that they'll need to navigate some fairly hostile terrain.
> 
> That, and cavalry are fucking badass looking.


Notice I didn't mention bikes at all. I'd prefer horses (or some other living animal, possibly with some augmetics) or in a pinch, jetbikes.

All wishlisting asside though - I for one am highly excited about everything SM posted.

What seems to have slipped under the radar is that Celestians are getting their own models(!) and aparrently seraphim will have wingaling jump packs (can I get a 'duh'?). Both groovy things.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I would prefer sister repentia just getting the Cavalry rule instead of sisters with horses  Then again they kinda move like jump pack if you can get the holy rage move to be a 6.

I guess they could get horses for the arbites though, they look like riot cops anyways with their shields and maces. Throw in some horses and you could get more riding arbites.


----------



## TheKingElessar

@Boreas - <3

As regards Wolf Cav, Rough Riders, and Sister Cav - I like RR, and they work fine for me, thematically. There are definitive advantages to horseback, even in the GrimDark.

However, we are talking about (TWC) SUPERHUMANS in MASSIVE armour. I would have laughed at a Fandex that gave ANY Marines Cavalry. Bikes makes sense, Cav, not so much. Wulfen as Beasts a la Spawn? Awesome. Mehreens on Wolfz? Not really to my taste the same. YMMV ofc. And I always <3'd SW as a Chapter, fyi.

Sister Cav, for me, is almost worse. These are the puritans - the Ecclesiarchy's militant wing (except the Frateris Militia, ofc...)...they barely tolerate the existence of Ogyrns and Ratlings (and often don't!) I can't see them ride anything properly Xenos, and they would crush a horse, even S3 and T3 as they are. lol

Beast Repentia works for me. Inducted RR works for me. Frateris fraternising with mounts, works for me. Even Arbites Cav, in Carapace works for me...but not actual SoBs on 'horse'back.


----------



## boreas

All my nerd-rage aside, I must say that those SoB rumors are making me think seriously about selling most of my current SoB. I'll keep a few (15-20) of the wonderful metal models, of course. But if the next models are like the new DE (or better!), I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a full army anyways. 

-I love the idea of the veil. Those where at one point the brides of the near-defunct Emperor, no?
-I love the knee-high laced boots. Ridiculously sexy for a soldier? Sure. But hey, it WH40k and I love knee-high boots and corsets 
-Different pattern for the bolters? I'm ok with that. I like more proportionned weapons. Those manga-style minies with swords as long and large as the whole mini annoy me no end!
-Rides? Hum, cavalry would be cool. Sleek bikes (more like sisters with boots and corsets riding on motocross bikes shooting meltas and flamers) that do not give the +1T but move like cavalry).

Phil


----------



## Azezel

The Ecclesiarchy has no problem with animals that originate from planets other than Terra. Good thing too as actual Terran animals seem very very rare.

They dislike Ogryn, Ratlings and other abhumans because such beings are perversions of the sacred human form - they hate sentient Xenos because suuch beings are rivals for dominance of the galaxy, not to mention morally bankrupt blasphemies.

Animals (Like grox and those lizard monsters the Tallarns ride) are fine.

Besides which, Sororitas armour is supposed to weigh around 35 Kg (Blood of Martyrs) - for comparison a full harness of late medieval plate armour weighed 20 Kg (tournament armour anywhere up to 50 KG). A fully equipped sororitas couldn't clock in at more than 150-160 KG. Easily within the power of even an unmodified Terran horse, let alone the kind of gene-modded augmetic cyberstallion the admech could cook up if you asked them nicely.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well...I accept they maybe would not break the back of a horse.

Aesthetically though, I would not be in favour.

Bikes, though...(And not Jetbikes, because AFAIK they didn't even have them Heresy-era, and no-one else got to keep theirs, except the Masters of the Ravenwing)


----------



## Azezel

Fair 'nuff.

I don't want bikes - firstly for the reasons Winterous cited, secondly because it'd be too 'Space Marines, but girls' if we had bikers.

The Imperium used to have scads of Jetbikes pre-Heresy (not that the Sisterhood existed then) but the Admech stopped making them (I'm given to understand that they didn't loose the STC, they just stopped making them because they didn't want to).

It's far from impossible to reintroduce Imperial jetbikes, though - particularly since the Admech renegged on their deal with the Ecclesiarchy about the Immolator/Hellhound.

Either the Church find a new Jetbike STC and call dibs (like they tried to do with the Hellhound) or they demmand the Admech make them some jetbikes _because_ of the Hellhound shenanigans.


----------



## GrizBe

Screw that.. I want sisters riding giant attack bears! :laugh:


----------



## ohiocat110

Battle Sister Cavalry would fit nicely from a fluff perspective, IMO. Many historical and mythical female warriors or generals rode into combat. Joan of Arc and Boudica. The Trung Sisters of Vietnam rode an elephant. Shieldmaidens and Valkyries from Norse folklore. 

They could use something to mix things up. Celestians, Dominions, and Battle Sisters are all pretty much the same. Battle Sisters cavalry could fill in a niche they really don't have, and could be a nice place to give them some CC help. TH/SS perhaps?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

A TH/SS with S3 is not that effective though and given sisters other stats A1 I dont see them doing much of anything in CC vs MEQ. Sad part is to be considered balanced you need to be able to efficiently counter MEQ.

I could see them reworking how Sister Repentia with Eviscerators work though, right now they are chain fists but if you look at the current metagame (just had to use that silly term) they will pretty much never even get to swing in CC. What I could see them doing with them is something similar to the Zealots that were added in a WD. You could field 20 zealots and for every 5 members one could wield an Eviscerator.
Since the fluff dictates that repentia wield a large 2h sword into battle they could make those weapons sort of work like blessed weapons, giving +2S and maybe since they are so large get that old ork special rule where attacks gave -1 to armour saves. So a marine with 3+ would have to do armour saves on a 4+ instead.
This together with scout and fnp (and their old rules) but removing their armour save since thats just silly I could see them at 20points.

Anyways, the point of this was that perhaps riding cav could get special polearms like the rough riders do. RR gets +2S and initiative on the charge but only once per game if I read the rule correctly. I dont think spears or lances fit sisters of battle though, I could see SS (or another shield that allows for rerolled failed armour saves) and a 1h weapon.
I see sisters more as an urban fighting army rather than one that engages in huge battlefields.

Oh, and on the rough riders. I think they are an awesome fast attack choice, both for a cheap points cost and good rules but why take them when you can take Valkyries?
They should FAQ the valk and add +50 points to its cost, Im sure they have made their $$ from the valkyrie kits by now.


----------



## TheKingElessar

No!
An FAQ that adds points cost is TERRIBLE game design and sets a horrifying precedent.

IMO, RR are crap, MOSTLY because they don't have Scouts, T4/a 4+ or WS4...but still.

I know historical precedent for warrior maidens on horseback exists - but it would turn me off collecting SoBs, which I plan to do when they are plastic, if I felt they were necessary to be competitive.

The ONLY reason I'd like them is because I could rep Crone World Eldar on Steeds of Slaanesh in Chaos armour.


----------



## ohiocat110

MadCowCrazy said:


> A TH/SS with S3 is not that effective though and given sisters other stats A1 I dont see them doing much of anything in CC vs MEQ. Sad part is to be considered balanced you need to be able to efficiently counter MEQ.
> 
> Anyways, the point of this was that perhaps riding cav could get special polearms like the rough riders do. RR gets +2S and initiative on the charge but only once per game if I read the rule correctly. I dont think spears or lances fit sisters of battle though, I could see SS (or another shield that allows for rerolled failed armour saves) and a 1h weapon.
> I see sisters more as an urban fighting army rather than one that engages in huge battlefields.


Yeah, SH/TS was more for the mental image, but it could work if they were given furious charge. Then they'd at least be dangerous to MEQ on the charge without having a Marine statline. 

I think everybody agrees that the rules for Repentia make so sense and that they need an overhaul. I don't like them from a rules, fluff, or aesthetic perspective though so I don't see myself ever using them. 

It will be interesting to see if the new Dex maintains the WH/Inq feel or leans more heavily toward pure Battle Sisters. That will determine a lot on how individual units shake out.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Im really looking forwards to codex grey knights (if this is indeed what it will be called) because it will give enormous hints to what the sisters codex will be like. Then again since its not a combined codex that could mean a radical deviation from past iterations of codex sisters of battle/witch hunters.

Is there really a point to having 2 codicies that are identical except for some wargear options and changing gks for sob. From what was said last week though no Ecclesiarchy units will make an appearance in the gk dex. Im curious to know if this includes arco-flagellants as they were said to be a retinue choice.
Penitent Engines in fast attack sounded great though, I really wish they get the scout rule though since it makes sense from a fluff perspective and would make them a bit more reliable if you could outflank them. Then again the only thing that would make them viable would be the option to outflank them. If they keep the FA/SA 11, open topped and 80 points cost I could see them getting some new rules. I can live with holy rage, open topped not so much. If they maybe had a 5+inv or cover save that would help a little but they have no way to survive vs todays missile launcher spam.

Does fast attack affect walkers in any way? If they could assault like cavalry that would make them allot better than they are now because that would give them a 24" threat range.
Walkers cant run and assault can they? Dont remember ever seeing a walker with "fleet".


----------



## Azezel

There's no reason a walker couldn't have Fleet - but far better would be to make them Monstrous Creatures.

Fleet, 3 wounds, Toughness 5-6, 3+/5++ Job's a good 'un. I don't think they even need scout.

As for Codex: GK hinting at Codex: SoB - I hope not.

I hope that the Inuisition will be out of the 'dex, and I can't imagine the two codices having anything else in common.


----------



## ohiocat110

Azezel said:


> I hope that the Inuisition will be out of the 'dex, and I can't imagine the two codices having anything else in common.


Hmm, why is that? Inq. units bring a lot to the table in the way of psychic defense, assassins, and armor (Inquisitor's Land Raider). I understand the attraction of the pure SoB list for fluff and faith purposes, but doing so in the current Codex leaves a lot of tools in the box. We would need to see a lot of new Sister's units to be able to provide that flexibility.

The units don't need to be carbon copies with a different name, but let a Cannoness take a psychic hood, or have Celestian sniper teams, etc, and we're in business.


----------



## TheKingElessar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Walkers cant run and assault can they? Dont remember ever seeing a walker with "fleet".


Not normally, and Chaos Dreads.

Or Death Company ones.

IMO, a Canoness with a Psy hood is unfluffy, or at least a huge RetCon.

SoBs aren't meant to be psychic, and only the psychically receptive can operate a Hood.

That said, the DE get by without psychic defence. I'd like to think pure SoBs (whether the Codex has Ecclesiarchy/Inquisitors or not) would be able to manage.


----------



## boreas

Well, SoB already nullify psychic powers on a 5+ if they are targeted or affected by an area. That's good enough for me as it's usually just as good or better than a psychic hood...

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Sisters absolutely cannot be psychic - it would be so counter to the fluff that we might as well all pack up and go home at that point.

However - if any arm should be good at psychic defence/anti-psyker tactics, it is the sisterhood.

A Psychic Hood is not necessary, just off the top of my head.

Make Shield of Faith work on all psychic powers (or perhaps, all powers that affect a Sororitas model, AND those that are cast within 6/12" of a sororitas model no matter the target).

Psyk-out Grenades that function as the Psyk-Out Warhead (i.e. eliminate psychic powers, rather than wound psykers)

Add a Sister who is a Blank as a single-model one-per-army unit. I can fully believe that every female Blank who enters the Schola is funnelled into the Sororitas (even if they have to mind-wipe her and imprint a new, more faithful personality to make her pious enough).

Pentagramic wards as a wargear upgrade (come as standard on Sororitas Artificer Armour).

Blessed Weapons wound Psykers on a 2+ (like the Stake Crossbow does).

Coming up with ways a pure Sisters 'dex could frustrate Psykers in a fluffy way is almost too easy.


----------



## mahavira

Actually I rather suspect all blanks of either sex get funnelled into Culexus Assassins to the extent that this is possible or, as in the case of Eisenhorn's distaff, other service to the Inquisition.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Walkers cant run and assault can they? Dont remember ever seeing a walker with "fleet".


*coughDEFILERcough*



Azezel said:


> However - if any arm should be good at psychic defence/anti-psyker tactics, it is the sisterhood.


This is very true.



Azezel said:


> A Psychic Hood is not necessary, just off the top of my head.


Not to mention that a Psychic Hood is a tool for a Psyker to block the Psyking of another Psyker.



Azezel said:


> Make Shield of Faith work on all psychic powers (or perhaps, all powers that affect a Sororitas model, AND those that are cast within 6/12" of a sororitas model no matter the target).


Works like a Wolf Tail Talisman, 5+ roll to nullify a power directed at the unit, and perhaps a 5+ Invulnerable save against any wounds caused by Psychic Powers, or Force Weapons (the 5+ to nullify could also be used against the Force Weapon's power).

Perhaps the 5+ Invulnerable is pushing it too far, army-wide Wolf Tail Talisman is good enough.



Azezel said:


> Psyk-out Grenades that function as the Psyk-Out Warhead (i.e. eliminate psychic powers, rather than wound psykers)


This is a fantastic idea, and would also serve to discourage Jetseer 
Small Blast weapon, only causes harm to Psykers touched by the marker, and any unit affected by it (can target allies as well) will not benefit or suffer from the effects of ANY Psychic Power until the beginning of the firing player's next turn, and any continuous effects of powers are immediately cancelled.
Would be restricted to HQ choices, for obvious reasons, and could target a friendly unit while the IC's joined unit shoots an enemy.

Would be AP2, and wound on a 2+ against Psykers, I guess.



Azezel said:


> Add a Sister who is a Blank as a single-model one-per-army unit. I can fully believe that every female Blank who enters the Schola is funnelled into the Sororitas (even if they have to mind-wipe her and imprint a new, more faithful personality to make her pious enough).


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_of_Silence
Sisters of Silence, PERFECT!
Have them as an Elites choice, single model ICs, and unit with a model within 6" cannot be affected by Psychic Powers at all, and any continuous effects are immediately cancelled if the unit enters that aura.
In addition, any Psyker within 6" cannot use Psychic Powers, at all.

There would also be an HQ version, which would be one of the higher-ranking Sisters of Silence, with a better statline and a larger aura (perhaps 9", 12" may be a bit ridiculous), and also access to some incredible pieces of wargear.
All Sisters of Silence would have access to Psyker-hunting wargear, like Power Stakes for example, since that's one of their primary purposes, hunting Psykers.

Understandibly, these guys would be rather more expensive than a Cannoness.


----------



## mahavira

Oh, and while Blood of Martyrs indeed does not have much that gives hints about possible new units, vehicles or wargear (they do have a kind of carapace armor which is used by non militant orders, so if Sisters Hospitaler were available as options, they would probably have a 4+ save rather than the 6+ surgeon henchmen currently 'enjoy', and a couple of interesting hand weapons), the acts of faith section is not entirely devoid of points of interest. One act of faith blesses the prometheum in flame weapons, making it more effective against teh corrupt, psykers and daemons. An act of faith which allows flamers etc. to ignore invulnerable saves perhaps? As opposed to Holy Prometheum as a vehicle upgrade. Perhaps unsurprisingly, prometheum blessed by the act of faith is no scarier than any other kind (why holy prometheum in the WH codex would make orks or tau make panic checks they otherwise wouldn't have to I never understood). There are quite a few acts of faith there, though many have no obvious application at the tabletop wargaming scale.


----------



## Winterous

mahavira said:


> Actually I rather suspect all blanks of either sex get funnelled into Culexus Assassins to the extent that this is possible or, as in the case of Eisenhorn's distaff, other service to the Inquisition.


Culexus Assassins are Pariahs, Sisters of Silence are Blanks.
Difference being, Pariahs are dangerous to Psykers, whereas Blanks just cut them off from the Warp.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sorry, but 'Power Stake' is ludicrous. Can't we drop the pseudo-Buffy nonsense from this one? Even in wishlisting?


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Sorry, but 'Power Stake' is ludicrous. Can't we drop the pseudo-Buffy nonsense from this one? Even in wishlisting?


I agree, it is pretty silly 
I was just saying, anti-Psyker weapons.


----------



## mahavira

Winterous said:


> Culexus Assassins are Pariahs, Sisters of Silence are Blanks.
> Difference being, Pariahs are dangerous to Psykers, whereas Blanks just cut them off from the Warp.


My WH codex just uses the term untouchable, described as having no presence in the warp, which is used interchangeably with blank everywhere I've seen in any source, Pariahs being a necron form created from human blanks/untouchables. Where is this info, I'm curious to see more on this point.


----------



## Winterous

mahavira said:


> My WH codex just uses the term untouchable, described as having no presence in the warp, which is used interchangeably with blank everywhere I've seen in any source, Pariahs being a necron form created from human blanks/untouchables. Where is this info, I'm curious to see more on this point.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blank

Pariahs are literally soulless, whereas a Blank actually creates a blockade between the Warp and our dimension, in their vicinity; this completely stops Psykers from being able to Psyke in their presence, or AT their presence.

A Pariah is uncomfortable to be around, since the subtle Warp senses of humans cannot detect them, they feel wrong.
However, a Blank attracts much more violent emotions.


The Pariah Gene is what causes humans to be Pariahs, and they are the only race to have them.
The C'Tan seeded humanity with the Pariah gene in order to create Pariahs, an entity which is seemingly designed to separate Warp and real space.


----------



## Azezel

I intentionally did not use the phrase 'sister of silence' -the whole concept is loopy.

What's wrong with the stake-crossbow? It's a shaft of sacred silver engraved with wards and fired through a witch's heart - for all 'round style and effectiveness, you can't beat that.

In any event, my original idea was that blessed weapons should wound psykers like stake crossbows. Nasty for psykers and sets the blessed weapon apart from the 'relic' blades they hand out to every marine with a vowel in his name.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> I intentionally did not use the phrase 'sister of silence' -the whole concept is loopy.


What's wrong with them?
Blanks inducted into a special order of the Adepta Sororitas.
I can't see a problem.


----------



## mahavira

Winterous said:


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blank
> 
> Pariahs are literally soulless, whereas a Blank actually creates a blockade between the Warp and our dimension, in their vicinity; this completely stops Psykers from being able to Psyke in their presence, or AT their presence.
> 
> A Pariah is uncomfortable to be around, since the subtle Warp senses of humans cannot detect them, they feel wrong.
> However, a Blank attracts much more violent emotions.
> 
> 
> The Pariah Gene is what causes humans to be Pariahs, and they are the only race to have them.
> The C'Tan seeded humanity with the Pariah gene in order to create Pariahs, an entity which is seemingly designed to separate Warp and real space.


The wiki is directly contrary to the WH codex which says that the necrons create pariahs out of untouchables, but presumably other sources are more recent.


----------



## Winterous

mahavira said:


> The wiki is directly contrary to the WH codex which says that the necrons create pariahs out of untouchables, but presumably other sources are more recent.


Untouchable is a nickname, so it deserves a little bit of slack


----------



## TheKingElessar

Azezel said:


> I intentionally did not use the phrase 'sister of silence' -the whole concept is loopy.
> 
> What's wrong with the stake-crossbow? It's a shaft of sacred silver engraved with wards and fired through a witch's heart - for all 'round style and effectiveness, you can't beat that.
> 
> In any event, my original idea was that blessed weapons should wound psykers like stake crossbows. Nasty for psykers and sets the blessed weapon apart from the 'relic' blades they hand out to every marine with a vowel in his name.


When 2e ended, nobody missed the Crossbow. Putting it back in, especially as a mysteriously psyker-seeker, was poor design IMO. No creativity. Crossbows would still kill stuff without armour, but in the year 40999, people would go to war with them? :fool: 

As a concept, great, have Blessed Swords (_I'd_ rather you kept the whole 6s = AP1 thing...) but if they only wound Psykers they're too situational, IMO.

As for 'untouchables' perhaps that term is being dropped because of unpleasant Hindu-related connotations? (ie the Untouchables in India?)


----------



## Baron Spikey

And the bull shit that is Lexicanum strikes again- 

Blanks, Untouchables, Pariahs are all terms for the same damn thing! I own all the sources that that Lexicanum article (supposedly) uses as references so I know without a shadow of a doubt that it's someone's fan-fic.

Clear something up for me Winterous- did you refer to the Sisters of Silence as a Blank exclusive elite part of the Adepta Sororitas?


----------



## Azezel

The disters of silence are (were ten thousand years ago) part of the Adeptus Telepathica. They have no place in a discussion about Battle Sisters in M41.

This is all getting far too wish listy. That's my fault and I'm sorry. I'm out of here 'till I have something on-topic to say.


----------



## Winterous

Baron Spikey said:


> And the bull shit that is Lexicanum strikes again-
> 
> Blanks, Untouchables, Pariahs are all terms for the same damn thing! I own all the sources that that Lexicanum article (supposedly) uses as references so I know without a shadow of a doubt that it's someone's fan-fic.
> 
> Clear something up for me Winterous- did you refer to the Sisters of Silence as a Blank exclusive elite part of the Adepta Sororitas?


Aah, I did not know that parts of that site have been... Bastardised, in a way.

And yes, I did say that, that's what Lexicanum led me to believe; is this in some way incorrect?
*edit* Oh, whoops, they're a part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, not the Adeptus Sororitas.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheKingElessar said:


> Sorry, but 'Power Stake' is ludicrous. Can't we drop the pseudo-Buffy nonsense from this one? Even in wishlisting?


I see this as something every sister has in their bedside drawer, they might called them "Power Stakes" 40,000 years into the future but we call them something else...

Come here you psyker, let me use my "Power Stake" on you!










As BoLS and Blood of Kittens reported before about the MC GK has taken the slot away from what was originally given to Penitent Engines. The MC will be an Elite slot that is already becoming quite crowded with units. GK will be the Special Characters codex look for over 10 new special characters to play with at least 1/4 being inquisitorial in nature.

Assume any special powers (not USRs) are psychic powers instead. As an example, if you have Land Raider and it is immune to something it will be a psychic power (not wargear) same goes for Special Character powers. The ability to raise AV is almost certainly out of the codex or at the very least regulated to transports only. The Stormraven is currently still the only Fast Attack unit in the codex. The ability for GKs to teleport once per game is for basic GKs only not for terminators. Don’t believe any stats for the incinerator it is the one major piece of wargear that is still being debated. The special character that makes terminators cheaper can only make one squad cheaper think Tau honor guard.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well, since Bindi said they're off to the printers, debate CANNOT still be being had as well.

I choose to believe him, as a more reliable source.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, since Bindi said they're off to the printers, debate CANNOT still be being had as well.
> 
> I choose to believe him, as a more reliable source.


Debate can ALWAYS be had, even when the dex is out people will debate it.
I think it's boring to just sit and wait for the codex to be released and rumours alone aren't satisfying enough for me, hence I like to debate what has been said.
Why? Because it's better than just sitting in this chair and fiddle with my diddle.
I also dont claim to be the know all of 40k fluff etc, so if we debate it maybe something interesting will come up. Like a book, a fluff section in an older edition I haven't read or something like that.

Oh, has anyone received their Jan issue of WD? Dont gw send one out in December?


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh, has anyone received their Jan issue of WD? Dont gw send one out in December?


Today's GW blog said it should be out Saturday. It's probably later because of the whole Christmas thing...

and I agree that debate can still be had about the codex- we still don't know for sure what's in it, even if it is in concrete, so we might as well discuss it. That's what this thread is for- even if it does get a little sidetracked.


----------



## boreas

Azezel said:


> The disters of silence are (were ten thousand years ago) part of the Adeptus Telepathica. They have no place in a discussion about Battle Sisters in M41.
> 
> This is all getting far too wish listy. That's my fault and I'm sorry. I'm out of here 'till I have something on-topic to say.


I don't know... Aren't SoS part of the Inquisition's black ship crews? They also round up rogue psychers. They are also women-warriors with power armor and bolters. All of this makes them quite an attractive prospect for ret-conning into a future SoB codex. Plus they can make for great rules, great models, great fluff. It might raise some grumbling amongst fluff-nuts, but I think it would be to GW's advantage to put them in there. Anyways, there's almost no fluff as to what happened to them in the last 10 000 years.

Phil


----------



## TheKingElessar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Debate can ALWAYS be had, even when the dex is out people will debate it.
> I think it's boring to just sit and wait for the codex to be released and rumours alone aren't satisfying enough for me, hence I like to debate what has been said.
> Why? Because it's better than just sitting in this chair and fiddle with my diddle.
> I also dont claim to be the know all of 40k fluff etc, so if we debate it maybe something interesting will come up. Like a book, a fluff section in an older edition I haven't read or something like that.
> 
> Oh, has anyone received their Jan issue of WD? Dont gw send one out in December?


Sorry, I didn't mean WE can't. I should have quoted this:


> Don’t believe any stats for the incinerator it is the one major piece of wargear that is still being debated.


_Games Workshop_ can't still be debating it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

boreas said:


> I don't know... Aren't SoS part of the Inquisition's black ship crews? They also round up rogue psychers. They are also women-warriors with power armor and bolters. All of this makes them quite an attractive prospect for ret-conning into a future SoB codex. Plus they can make for great rules, great models, great fluff. It might raise some grumbling amongst fluff-nuts, but I think it would be to GW's advantage to put them in there. Anyways, there's almost no fluff as to what happened to them in the last 10 000 years.
> 
> Phil


The Sisters of Silence _were_ part of the Black Ship crews but *before* the Inquisition ever existed. They pre-date the Inquistion by a few hundred years and the Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) by 5,000 years.

If anything the Sisters of Battle should be retconned to be part of the Sisters of Silence, it might annoy you gamers but hey shit happens.


----------



## boreas

Also, a thought I had:



> Stickmonkey:
> "Sisters like their rides."


Like in Ride of the Valkyries?

Phil


----------



## Irbian

Sorry, but have you seen this? Its been a while



Llamafish said:


> Hi
> 
> Normally i dont post such thing, but i handled the spure of the plastic grey knights
> 
> Seems that there getting a new backpack for extra psyhic abilities (guessing from the look)
> 
> Two psycannon on the spur,
> with a new marines assualt cannon of some sort
> 
> NFW in the shape of a hammer, and lots of swords and halberds.
> 
> sergent seems not to have a helmet.
> 
> lots of wrist mounted stormbolters.
> 
> Cant recall if incindators with the spur.
> 
> Hope that helps some questions
> 
> Mark


Source


----------



## Azezel

Wait, you can put psychic powers in a backpack? Arethey spell scrolls now?

I'm not sure what that even means.

Interesting that PAGK can carry an assault cannon. Are there any other colours of Marine that can carry an AC without Terminator armour?


----------



## TheKingElessar

No, there aren't.

Why are so many of these 'sources' illiterate?

Really fucks me off.


----------



## Azezel

It's an internet forum, old man, illiteracy comes as standard with a side helping of RAGE.


----------



## TheKingElessar

...Sigh.

I know, you're right there Murray.


----------



## Irbian

Dont laugh at his spur 

Im not going to comment about iliteracy when english is not my first language


----------



## Azkaellon

AM i the only one hoping theres some way to run an Inquisitorial list? And special chars like isenhorn in at least one of the books?


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Wait, you can put psychic powers in a backpack? Arethey spell scrolls now?


I would imagine it would work as an Eldar spirit stone or epistolary upgrade does- allowing them to use an extra power each turn. Fluffwise they'd be using it to 'channel the warp' or something else suitably pseudoscientific.



Irbian said:


> Dont laugh at his spur
> 
> Im not going to comment about iliteracy when english is not my first language


Comment all you like- from what I've seen you speak (or should I say type?) English way better than half the people I see posting on various forums.


----------



## boreas

I'd like that, but as of now, rumors are looking grim for =I= players


----------



## Azkaellon

boreas said:


> I'd like that, but as of now, rumors are looking grim for =I= players


Yup lol! i like Inquisitors...not sisters and grey knights! It makes this a even more fun wait for me
:king:


----------



## Winterous

Baron Spikey said:


> If anything the Sisters of Battle should be retconned to be part of the Sisters of Silence, it might annoy you gamers but hey shit happens.


HEY, HERE'S AN IDEA!
Perhaps the Orders Militant could just have close ties with the Sisters of Silence, since they both really hate Witches.
They don't need to be a part of the same thing, the Sisters of Silence hunt Witches, the Sisters of Battle are often engaged in battle with rogue Psykers, or the armies of such (I am right in thinking that, right?); so it makes sense for them to have Sisters of Silence join them from time to time.


----------



## mahavira

Witch King of Angmar said:


> AM i the only one hoping theres some way to run an Inquisitorial list? And special chars like isenhorn in at least one of the books?


Unfortunately Eisenhorn is Ordo Xenos - wouldn't be in a grey knights book unless the inquisitor sqs are generic (if Gregor's about, I'd want the option for sisters too). For some reason inquisitors in BL books are usually Xenos.


----------



## coke123

Witch King of Angmar said:


> AM i the only one hoping theres some way to run an Inquisitorial list? And special chars like isenhorn in at least one of the books?


Whilst I wouldn't play it myself, I certainly hope there's room to make a pure =I= army- mostly out of sympathy for current pure DH players. Rumours do seem to point to Coteaz unlocking Stormtroopers as troops. It'd be nice to see Helgrund in there as well, and could be very interesting to include a 'pre-chaos' Quixos.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Unfortunately Eisenhorn is Ordo Xenos - wouldn't be in a grey knights book unless the inquisitor sqs are generic (if Gregor's about, I'd want the option for sisters too). For some reason inquisitors in BL books are usually Xenos.


From what I have understood from rumours is that all the ordos would be represented, then again this rumour goes back to when Ecclesiarchy units like PE were said to be in the dex. There was a rumour that Karmazov would be in the dex but that might just have been a mix up with that Dreadward Cullen MC that we have been hearing so much about.
The big question is what exactly would a pure Inquisitorial list contain?
If the SC unlocks stormtroopers as troops, I remember reading about a SC that unlocks henchmen as troops as well but I could see Arco-Flagellants being in Elite like they are now.
Current rumours say that only the Stormraven is in the FA slot, PE used to be there but they removed them (thank god) in favour of the new MC thing.
I could see Valkyries or Vendettas in FA but they are most likely Dedicated Transports for IST.
The early rumours spoke of Death Strike Missiles and tanks and stuff but afaik that has all been removed from the dex.
So the question remains....what exactly would a pure =][= list contain?



As for illiteracy, I agree that allot of the people who spout rumours are extremely illiterate and it annoys me to no end because in my mind it leads me to question their reliability since it sounds more like the ramblings of some illiterate 12 year old than someone who have actually seen something.
English is my 5th language and I make tons of mistakes but I use a spellcheck plugin for firefox. So every time I write something wrong it has a red wave under it. It far from perfect and doesn't have the usual internet lingo and can't correct bad grammar but at least I dont spell most things wrong


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Dreadward Cullen


YEEEEAAAAS!
HE USED MY NICKNAME!!

And MCC, it's your FIFTH language??
I only know it isn't your FIRST because of the flag beneath your thing, and I only occasionally look at that!
Your English is very bloody good, your sentence structure is fluent; spelling isn't important, as long as you can be understood.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> English is my 5th language


That is highly impressive.


S'far as I can tell from reading the current DH and WH codices, a pure =][= involves:

Inquisitors (HQ and Elite varieties)
Sundry retinue bods (Warrior, Sage, Mystic, Chirurgeon etc)
Stormtroopers
Assassins.
Daemonhosts (Any rumours about them? In or out?)

Given that this is a 5e codex, we may confidently predict some new, never-before-seen units too. If I were a cynical man I'd predict these new units will have expensive plastic kits and a suspiciously low points value - but new units are never a bad thing.

That said, since the Grey Knights are part of the Ordo Malleus, they also belong in the Inquisition bracket, but that's not what people mean by 'pure =][='


Penitent Engines and Arco-flagelants are both Ecclesiarchal units (although 'Eavy Metal will insist on slapping =][= decals on them), so they shouldn't really be appearing in the GK 'dex, even if it is full of Inquisitorial options.

It would be unfortunate for GK players if they had to share their codex not only with =][= units, but Ecclesiarchy freaks as well.


----------



## coke123

Seriously, your fifth language? You deserve a medal or something. I must say, your English is excellent. Makes me think I should start learning Japanese again, or maybe take up German...

As for what would be in a pure =I= army-we've got inquisitors, henchmen, ISTs, flagellants, daemonhosts (although I seem to recall rumours of their removal), assassins, so there's plenty there, especially since they're bound to include a new unit. I seem to remember talk of Penal Legion? Also, I'm suspecting there should be way more in that FA slot than we know(or think we know)- there's gotta be some inquisition in there.

Obviously the codex wouldn't be designed to specifically allow for pure =][=, since GW wants to move more boxes, but it would be nice to leave space for that to happen- otherwise we'll constantly hear the incessant moaning of pure players annoyed at being forced to pick up boxes of GK.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think we might be seeing a major change to the current fluff. I have been reading Blood of Martyrs in a hunt for hints and when reading the Penitent Engine entry I get the feeling we might see some fluff changes.

The fluff part is pretty much exact same as in C:WH; crimes that are so bad that not even arco-flagellantism (if thats a word) is enough and that the criminal really wants to redeem themselves may be put in a Penitent Engine. So far its the same, the next section is new though IIRC. Penitent Engines are massive two-legged servitor-like devices, armed with a heavy flamer and chain axe in each limb. Incredibly aggressive in battle, they are a favoured weapon of Adepta Sororitas who often deploy them in groups of three or more to break up mobs and rabble or to assault entrenched positions.

Now, I marked the interesting part with red.I have 3 problems with this text.

First of "a favoured weapon of Adepta Sororitas who often deploy them"?!
WH codex says "Penitent Engines may only be chosen if a Priest is also part of the force (a representative of the Ecclesiarchy must order the deployment of these revered machines).
Now the blood of Martyrs book says its a "favoured weapon of Adepta Sororitas who often deploy them", this it totally contradictory to the current fluff and the Adepta Sororitas should NOT be allowed to deploy them without a representative from the Ecclesiarchy since it's one of their units (a "revered" one at that).

Second "often deploy them", the fluff in C:WH states "Such machines are holy relics in themselves and a potent reminder of the fate of heretics.), shouldn't this mean they are only deployed when there is a dire need for the extra support and not "to break up mobs and rabble or to assault entrenched positions"? Entrenched positions I can agree on even though the Repressor should be the preferred option since it has better armour and more or less designed for it, even more so "to break up mobs and rabble".
Makes it sound like Penitent Engines are deployed on a regular basis just to slaughter every last one of any protesters or people standing in line to buy the next WoW expansion.

And finally "in groups of three or more".
Currently the max size of a PE squad is 3, could this be a hint that we might see groups of say 1-6PE in one squad? That would be awesome but highly unpractical unless they made them cost like 50pt each. 50pt each with the current rules I could live with, 80pt if they got Scout.

I have only read the first 50 pages of the Blood of Martyrs rulebook so far, I only saw this when skimming over the pages before going to bed. Will try to read the whole thing today and report back on other fluff changes I come across.

Now, it has to be said this book is not written by GW, so they might just have written the fluff parts in the book wrong. There are actually quite a few typos and horrible grammatical errors in the book so far (dont anyone proofread this stuff before release? This goes out to you too GW!). From a fandex I can accept it, from something you have to pay for I can not. Just one point, page 16 about the Frateris Militias : What the Frateris Militias lack in training and discipline (they are wont to fight amongst themselves if left for too long) they make up for with zeal.
I guess they either mean the Frateris Militias will fight amongst themselves if left for too long, or they wont?


Oh yeah, about Daemonhosts, there is a rumour that they will be part of the henchmen group. I know I've read them being part of an Inquisitors retinue (arco-flagellants as well) which is why they will probably be henchmen instead of their own entry.


----------



## Azezel

_Blood of Martyrs_ (and everything else from FFG) is at best a quaternary source, behind even Black Library - a source to be considered only when no other source has ever said anything on the matter.

Blood of Martyrs would also have you believe that Living Saints are _always_ female, that Sebastian Thor was a Living Saint (I know...), that the Adepta Sororitas only issue helmets to veteran Battle Sisters and the Convent Sanctorum is on Ophelia IV.

As for a member of the Ecclesiarchy being required to authorise the deployment of Penitent Engines, that's correct. What are Battle sisters, if not members of the Ecclesiarchy? Codex: Witch Hunters was just trying to force you to buy a Priest.

Just wait until you get the the Acts of Faith, old man. Daemon binding? Energy blasts? Mind control? You bet. did I accidentally buy a Chaos supliment full of sorcery instead of an Ecclesiarchy supliment full of faith?

For all that, though, it's not a terrible book, just don't take it, for want of a better word, religiously.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just found another section with the same grammar as the one mentioned above.

Of course, those who tarry overlong before the altar are wont to be punished harshly, and many have been condemned to service in the convict armies of the penal legions for returning from a shrine a mere minute past their allotted time.

"Overlong" is not a word according to my spellchecker but neither is the word "spellchecker" according to it.
I dont really understand the "are wont" they have now used twice so far, am I missing something or is this actually correct grammar? I know this is off topic but it's starting to annoy me.



> As for a member of the Ecclesiarchy being required to authorise the deployment of Penitent Engines, that's correct. What are Battle sisters, if not members of the Ecclesiarchy? Codex: Witch Hunters was just trying to force you to buy a Priest.


Hmm, never thought about this. It is both true and untrue, from what I understand they are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy but does that mean they are actual members of the Ecclesiarchy? I remember reading somewhere that the sisters are also the bitches of the Ordo Hereticus but cant remember if it was from an actual book or just online rabble.


----------



## Kettu

Wont
This should help you out.

And I'm back to lurking.
I tend to only reply and converse when I'm in the mood and for the past weeks it's seemed like a chore.

With the new stick monkey rumours, I'm sceptical at best (down right disbeliving more like it). He basically spent how many paragraphs simply saying he saw a test mini. His comments lacked far to many details and ultimately led nowhere.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> Blood of Martyrs would also have you believe that Living Saints are _always_ female, that Sebastian Thor was a Living Saint (I know...)


I just read these parts and I think you got it wrong. Sebastian Thor was a Saint and not a Living Saint.

Saints are declared by the Ecclesiarchy, usually long after they are dead for doing something that has benefited the imperium.

Living Saints on the other hand are short lived females who "literally glow" with the emperors grace.

The Thorian faction of the Inquisition regard them as vessels of the Emperor's power in the model of Sebastian Thor himself.
Basically they believe saints, as well as Sebastian Thor were "touched" by the emperor and received his guidance in some way.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, never thought about this. It is both true and untrue, from what I understand they are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy but does that mean they are actual members of the Ecclesiarchy? I remember reading somewhere that the sisters are also the bitches of the Ordo Hereticus but cant remember if it was from an actual book or just online rabble.


The fluff is disperate and self-contradictory, but from what I can peice together over five editions, it runs like this:

The Ecclesiarchy comprises two distinct arms, the Adeptus Ministorum (the church) and the Adepta Sororitas (the sisterhood). Both are Adeptae in their own right. both answer to the Ecclesiarch, but neither is supposed to have direct control over the other.

A Priest (Adeptus Ministorum) can request aid from the Adepta Sororitas, and he'll probably get it, but he cannot actually order them (Mr. Swallow, I'm talking to you) or make them do anything they don't want to.

A Sister (Adepta Sororitas) can make requests of the Adeptus Ministorum, and it's a brave Priest who says 'no', but he does have the right to do so.

In addition, the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas appears to have the authority to overrule the Ecclesiarch under certain circumstances, for example, f she thinks he needs executing and he disagrees, she gets her way.

If the above is true (and like I say, the fluff contradicts itself over the years and there's pretty much _no_ 'current' fluff either way), then the question becomes 'Are Penitent Engines an asset of the Ministorum or the Sororitas?'. the answer to that question dictates who has the right to authorise their use.

My gut says that thhey are an asset of the sororitas, for legal reasons (the church isn't supposed to have _any_ weapons - they seem to be able to get away with laspistols and eviscerators, but a 15-foot armour-plated torture-powered killing machine is more than just 'bending the rules'.


As for the Order Hereticus - the Orders Militant (not, it seems, the sororitas as a whole) were made the Chamber Militant of the Hereticus by the Convocation of Nephilim. Unlike the other Chambers Militant, the Sisters of Battle are _not_ part of the Inquisition, they merely have a long-standing legal and spiritual obligation to the Inquisition, the exact boundaries of which have never been described. Nevertheless, the sisters of Battle remain part of the Adepta Sororitas, and therefore, part of the Ecclesiarchy.


Fun fact, in Codex: Sisters of Battle, the entire Hereticus fluff is contained in one small sidebar on page 14 the whole of the rest of the book is Ecclesiarchy. In Codex: Witch Hunters, the Ecclesiarchy get one and a half pages (4 and half of 5) and the rest is Hereticus (and by rest, I mean there are eight pages of fluff in the whole 'dex. Is it any wonder the fluff is so hard to keep track of?).

Now taking bets on the ratio of Ecclesiarchy to Hereticus in our next codex (not really taking bets).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I would hope the next codex returns to Codex : Sisters of Battle and centers around the Adepta Sororitas rather than the Ecclesiarchy or Ordo Hereticus.

Who wants to play an Ecclesiarchy army full of priests? Would they have young boy henchmen to help them "spread the faith"?

I could see allot of people wanting to play a Ordo Hereticus army but I'm sure it will be near identical to what we will see in the GK codex. With SC unlocking units as troops and what not. At my gaming club we dont really play with SC (though I think that's silly and trying to get them to do so) and I'm sure ours is not the only one. I have heard of tournaments that dont allow for SC as well, this pretty much means you wouldn't be allowed to field your Inquisitorial army at those events. Bah, I wish I had the codex right now so I could find out about how it all will work.

Lastly the Adepta Sororitas, this was my first and will always be my main army. I really like everything about it but have put it on hold until their codex is updated and we get plastic models that are actually affordable. I think it's a pretty interesting army, I dont like SM nor do I feel much for the Imperial Guard. The sisters on the other hand is just in between having power armour but human stats. They are basically just well trained and armed humans, something I can relate to rather than uber super soldiers or one in a billion that is an imperial soldier. That they are all female is another reason I like them.
If I hadn't played Soulstorm I would never have gotten into 40k, it just sucks GW are so retardedly slow with codex updates but this is because of their insistence on using printed codicies. Rules should be free PDF, rulebook should be a print on demand book you would need to be allowed to play at GW stores and GW tournaments.
This way they could update the rules when needed instead of leaving codicies with units that are near useless or units that are blatantly too cheap until the next edition.


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> Who wants to play an Ecclesiarchy army full of priests? Would they have young boy henchmen to help them "spread the faith"?


I would 

I don't want to bring politics or religion into this discussion, but let's just say I'm profoundly anti-religion. Nonetheless I'm fascinated by religion as a driving force. Religious forces, zealots and crusaders are a sci-fi or fantasy theme I cherish. The whole "freak show" list of the Codex: Witch Hunters with shotgun-toting priests, Arco-flagellants, Penitent Engines, zealots, etc have always appealed to me. It's an essential facet of WH40k's grimdark and tragic sense. I sincerely hope I can still field all of those in the future.

Phil

BTW, 5 languages k:

Oups, double-post!

Trying out the merge button


----------



## TheKingElessar

A source I spoke to said that Stormtroopers will only exist as part of the Henchmen, not as a stand-alone unit.

This fulfills the requirement, as we know there to be a character that makes Henchmen Troops.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> A source I spoke to said that Stormtroopers will only exist as part of the Henchmen, not as a stand-alone unit.
> 
> This fulfills the requirement, as we know there to be a character that makes Henchmen Troops.


It would be nice to have the IG Storm Troopers as a proper unit


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well, if 'Henchmen' works like an Archon's Court, and only allows a couple of each, that's bad IMO, unless Storm Troopers max is also unit max size.


So...I agree, sort of.


----------



## Azkaellon

TheKingElessar said:


> A source I spoke to said that Stormtroopers will only exist as part of the Henchmen, not as a stand-alone unit.
> 
> This fulfills the requirement, as we know there to be a character that makes Henchmen Troops.


I say that "Source" is full of BS it would not make sense to take away stormtroopers as a unit choice since they are deployed a quiet large amount of the time by the Inquisition!


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> _Blood of Martyrs_ (and everything else from FFG) is at best a quaternary source, behind even Black Library - a source to be considered only when no other source has ever said anything on the matter.
> 
> Blood of Martyrs would also have you believe that Living Saints are _always_ female, that Sebastian Thor was a Living Saint (I know...), that the Adepta Sororitas only issue helmets to veteran Battle Sisters and the Convent Sanctorum is on Ophelia IV.
> 
> As for a member of the Ecclesiarchy being required to authorise the deployment of Penitent Engines, that's correct. What are Battle sisters, if not members of the Ecclesiarchy? Codex: Witch Hunters was just trying to force you to buy a Priest.
> 
> Just wait until you get the the Acts of Faith, old man. Daemon binding? Energy blasts? Mind control? You bet. did I accidentally buy a Chaos supliment full of sorcery instead of an Ecclesiarchy supliment full of faith?
> 
> For all that, though, it's not a terrible book, just don't take it, for want of a better word, religiously.


The acts of faith thing are kind of a point of view thing: unless you think the elaborate catholic ritual of exorcism is sorcery rather than faith, I think there's room for everything within the faith rubric.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, if 'Henchmen' works like an Archon's Court, and only allows a couple of each, that's bad IMO, unless Storm Troopers max is also unit max size.


Unforunately the Archon's Court is fucking STUPID.
Oh hey there guy who improves poisoned attacks.
What's that? The only things that actually effect are your own attacks, and the Archon's Splinter Pistol? WHAT A VALUABLE FUCKING ADDITION TO THE TEAM!


----------



## Vhalyar

Witch King of Angmar said:


> I say that "Source" is full of BS it would not make sense to take away stormtroopers as a unit choice since they are deployed a quiet large amount of the time by the Inquisition!


What's the matter if an HQ choice can make henchmen into troops? You still get your storm troopers.


----------



## Azkaellon

Vhalyar said:


> What's the matter if an HQ choice can make henchmen into troops? You still get your storm troopers.


Still wouldn't feel the same in my eye's I think they are good cheaper troop option over grey knights or sisters.


----------



## Yllib Enaz

Winterous said:


> Unforunately the Archon's Court is fucking STUPID.
> Oh hey there guy who improves poisoned attacks.
> What's that? The only things that actually effect are your own attacks, and the Archon's Splinter Pistol? WHAT A VALUABLE FUCKING ADDITION TO THE TEAM!


Team??

I dont think you get the Dark Eldar attitude

As an Archon you are an evil alien mastermind with a penchant for suffering, as long as your stuff is cooler (more effective) who cares about the minions?


----------



## coke123

Well, a Court implies some form of teamwork. Also, considering that the Archon's power is directly derived from the strength of his Kabal, it completely fits the Archon's self serving nature to have the best team available. But yeah, the court is kinda dumb. For me the minimum choices ruin it. I don't particularly feel like chomping up all my points when I would probably only want one of the squad choices.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The Archons court and henchmen for the Inquisitors is something I find really puzzling.

I really dont like the idea of the court, since it mixes up units. It works just fine for beastmaster who can have chimeras as extra wounds with a inv save but if you have stormtroopers and arco-flagellants in the same group that doesn't really make sense.

From some rumours it was said arcos and daemonhosts could be part of the retinue, but there will probably be warriors, acolytes and all that as well. It just doesn't make much sense to have some pure assault units with rage in a group where half the members arn't even made for assault.

Will a SC make them separate unit entries or will they remain a retinue all mixed up?
At the moment I cant really wrap my head around it but I'm sure they have come up with some interesting ways you can use them.


----------



## Irbian

I lol with warseer. Stickmonkey posted this and some posts later one of the mods close the thread.

Where do you see that, with a rumourmonger participating and clarificating about a initial rumour, the thread is closed? Surprising

@coke123: Thanks, its nice to know that Im not doing it so bad then 
@MadCowCrazy: With 5 languages I understand now where "Mad" and "Crazy" comes from  Wich languages if Im able to know?


----------



## GrizBe

"This thread has ceased to serve any purpose."

lol. A thread where Stickmonkey is posting rumours and answering peoples questions has no purpose? Warseer mods are morons.


Also, seems Blood of Kittens is back to its stupid rumour posting... Apparently GK's are getting a 40k version of their epic 'Knight' Titan that will be about as big as a Stompa...

=/


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> Also, seems Blood of Kittens is back to its stupid rumour posting... Apparently GK's are getting a 40k version of their epic 'Knight' Titan that will be about as big as a Stompa...


Oh god I hope not. I'm already haemorraging enough money into this hobby as is... I don't know if I'd be able to restrain myself from a plastic titan!

But yeah, doubt it. They're already having to do so many new kits for this release, it just seems like they'd be biting off more than they can chew with the development of a new super-heavy for the Knights.


----------



## Bindi Baji

GrizBe said:


> Apparently GK's are getting a 40k version of their epic 'Knight' Titan that will be about as big as a Stompa...



Apparently the SOB codex will feature six foot long space hamster's in space hamster balls


----------



## Irbian

Source



> Expect more specific leaks coming out soon from various forums. Just keep in mind that these leaks seem to be from older playtest of the codex so expect changes to the final print, but nothing too major.


Dont like the way they talk about that. Is something like "dont trust anyone apart from me". I dont like it



> The Stormraven is currently still the only Fast Attack unit in the codex.


Sorry, but my logic dont work here. Codex with only 1 FA? no sir, not in this world



> The playtesting phase is done for the GKs
> [...]
> Don’t believe any stats for the incinerator it is the one major piece of wargear that is still being debated


So, is still being debated or is done?

Im the first that likes to have something to chew, but this rumours are... at best, a little...








...suspicious


----------



## TheKingElessar

GrizBe said:


> "This thread has ceased to serve any purpose."
> 
> lol. A thread where Stickmonkey is posting rumours and answering peoples questions has no purpose? Warseer mods are morons.
> 
> 
> Also, seems Blood of Kittens is back to its stupid rumour posting... Apparently GK's are getting a 40k version of their epic 'Knight' Titan that will be about as big as a Stompa...
> 
> =/


Warseer Mods are among the biggest bunch of idiots I've met online, and that's saying something. I got banned for complaining about a warning I received for saying the Avatar was crap in an Eldar Tactics thread.

No, really.



Bindi Baji said:


> Apparently the SOB codex will feature six foot long space hamster's in space hamster balls


Oh NOES! They're letting Gav Thorpe write it?!?!?!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

...I have no actual beef with Thorpe, lol.:smoke:


----------



## Irbian

Revisiting the comments of the BoK blog

About the MC


BoK said:


> Think of a certain sci-fi movie staring a certain Zuul actress fighting Nids and you can get the idea.


For reference:









About the release date


BoK said:


> Look to April sometime especially with the financial release GW needs a Space Marine like release fast.


I have made some questions there


me said:


> There are different troops options apart from PA GK and TA GK?
> How is possible to be the stormraven the only FA choice?


Ill see if they answer


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> Source
> 
> 
> Dont like the way they talk about that. Is something like "dont trust anyone apart from me". I dont like it


To me that just says that you should keep in mind that any leaked details might appear differently in the printed codex (so don't get worked up/too hyped over things), not to doubt and distrust anyone not from BoK :/

And if the Grey Knight MC ends up looking somewhat similar to that picture... I hope someone will do a diorama of the MC tangling it out with a Hivelord in a spaceship hangar :biggrin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This is the second thread by Stickmonkey they close down just shortly after he posted some more info.
The mods on Warseer are really retarded and act like spoiled kids given admin status.

I dont understand why some of the "best" rumours people post there, sure it's a good forum but it is completely ruined by forum nazi admins.

Can someone go invite Stickmonkey to come join this community instead, atleast then his information could be discussed and he could post more info and not have to worry about his threads getting locked.

I have noticed in allot of posts there that people apologise for the slightest off topic post and every 5th post says something in the lines of lets get back on topic.
I dont think their nazi methods actually keep people from going off topic, what it does is keep people from posting under fear of getting banned for no reason and people are afraid to post their thoughts and add to the discussion because their post will either get deleted, they will get banned or the thread will get closed. Really a shitty way to run a forum, but it will crash and burn soon enough as people get fed up with the bullshit.

These are my personal thoughts and dont represent the opinion of heresy-online.net as a whole. Just had to add this incase some retard complains.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Yeah do not get me started. I post there all the time and people nit pick over the dumbest things. The only reason I go there is cause of the rumours and the plogs. Harry, Hastings, Stick Monkey, Daemon Prince Aldramech, and others give very good info and I tend to stick around because they are great chaps. 

Otherwise, they all act like they have won the Ard Boyz tournament when it comes to anything about tactics, which happens in a rumour forum. So sad. I really wonder how they all got first place in the Ard Boyz tourney. 

Though I am bashing them alot, I tend to prefer them anyways due to the rumours they get. Most of the people that post there are of the rumour mongers we have are awesome and usually spot on. Unlike, the sanguine stain of some felines I could mention.


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> Can someone go invite Stickmonkey to come join this community [...]


Done, pm sended.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> Lots of things I agree with


I only go there for the rumours so maybe my view on their forum is a bit biased since I dont partake in anything else there (can't anyways since they banned me and I can't be arsed creating more accounts).

I find it really rude when one of the rumours people start a new rumours thread and everything is compiled at the start, then after 10 or so pages the thread gets closed and once they get more rumours they have to start a new thread.
Just take a look at this thread, how many god damned times would I have had to remake this thread if I would have started it over there?

Sure we go off topic all the time but the discussion is pretty much always focused on the topic every time rumours pop up. During periods of rumours drought we have interesting discussions about other things to keep the thread alive. New rumours dont pop up every day or even every week, but that's no reason to close down an active thread?

Oh, maybe the warseer admins are trying to increase the amount of threads created on their forum but closing them all the time, maybe they get advertisement funds based on thread numbers? Sneeky little scam they have going there.....


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh, maybe the warseer admins are trying to increase the amount of threads created on their forum but closing them all the time, maybe they get advertisement funds based on thread numbers? Sneeky little scam they have going there.....


I think it's more that Warseer is freaking gigantic. If you allow everyone to just post off-topic stuff in the rumor threads they become gigantic beyond all reason and it's impossible to find meaningful information in them. This thread's big but it's nothing compared to how huge they can get on Warseer.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, I'll assume you are right. It's still no excuse to close a thread 4 posts after new info was posted claiming the thread has run it's course.


While listening to The Eternal Warriors latest episode they were discussing some of Stickmonkeys cryptic posts.

This one came to mind "On the sisters front, women in armor move slower than men, but they look better doing it. Sisters like their rides."

Could this mean sisters get Slow and Purposeful? Would it fit them? I think it actually does, I would prefer Relentless but maybe that's too much? Slow n Purposeful is good enough.


----------



## coke123

Bindi Baji said:


> Apparently the SOB codex will feature six foot long space hamster's in space hamster balls


A man can dream though, a man can dream...



Irbian said:


> So, is still being debated or is done?


I think they mean it's still being debated by us, the community, rather than the developers. Meaning that whilst it's finalised, there are probably rumourmongers out there with conflicting information because they haven't seen the codex in its entirety.



TheKingElessar said:


> Warseer Mods are among the biggest bunch of idiots I've met online, and that's saying something. I got banned for complaining about a warning I received for saying the Avatar was crap in an Eldar Tactics thread.


:shok: Seriously? It is crap. Apparently telling a blatant truth is grounds for being banned now?


----------



## Azezel

coke123 said:


> A man can dream though, a man can dream...





coke123 said:


> Azezel said:
> 
> 
> 
> It could happen. a man can dream. _Oh yes, a man can dream..._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: Umm... keep those dreams to yourself, okay?
Click to expand...

Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I tend to agree with you MCC.

While Katie has a point about the size of the forums there...most posters don't regularly contribute, and 4 posts after more rumours seems odd at best.

It's more likely that they were told by someone from GW to shut it down than they genuinely thought the thread had run it's course. And I don't think that happened either.

Oh, and MCC - what were _you_ banned for? lol

EDIT: Coke123 - yep, seriously. Ask ChugginDatHaterade or Pringles978 - we were all banned within 4 hours of each other. :laugh:


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> WTF, I was just perma banned from Warseer for posting offensive pictures, but I havent even posted any pictures?!
> I received a warning for the picture I posted 2 weeks ago and 1 week ban, now Im permabanned? wtf?
> 
> Figured out which post the banned me form.
> 
> A person said he talked to some designer and was told you would get a nerdgasm when you saw the new models. Something that has been said many times before.
> 
> All I posted was :
> 
> I wonder if it will be anything like this.
> YouTube- Nerdgasm (from CBS's Big Bang Theory)
> 
> What the hell is offensive about this link? Are the mods over at warseer retarded or just really fucking retarded?


For this... The Warseer banning saga is quite epic... Makes me feel quite lonely in the "not-banned" corner 

Heck, maybe I should make my world famous Boreas' Nerdrage Post over there instead :ireful2:

Phil


----------



## TheKingElessar

Fuck, that's IT?!?

Jeez, I thought mine was bad...was the same with me, it was a 1-week ban, then when I woke up the next morning and checked to amuse myself it was perma-ban instead.

When it was 1-week, there was no reason given, just blank space. It happened less than a minute after I posted a thread in their helpdesk complaining about my warnings for 'trolling'...I think they banned me until they read it, then decided it worth a permaban upon reading. Part Two of my 'Fuck You Warseer' series on Mind War will feature the entire response...I don't want to aggravate anyone (Jez) by posting it on Heresy.


----------



## coke123

Azezel said:


> Pot, meet kettle.


Damn you, pointing out my blatant hypocrisy! :laugh:



TheKingElessar said:


> EDIT: Coke123 - yep, seriously. Ask ChugginDatHaterade or Pringles978 - we were all banned within 4 hours of each other. :laugh:


Jesus, you guys should start a support group or something. The "I Got Banned From Warseer Club" seems to have more and more members. Makes me glad that Heresy is the first and only forum I've ever posted on.


----------



## boreas

Well, in all honesty Bolter and Chainsword is fairly friendly also. Although don't post an iota of non-space marine stuff (they accept stuff relating to =I= codice and deamons because of the chaos dex).

Dakka Dakka is also a bit of a jungle. Not that friendly but you can get news for all the miniature games.

All in all, HO is now my main forum (for the better and the worst  )

Phil


----------



## Irbian

Just thinking on the Imperial Armour 10 and the Exorcists. There it appears as a daemon hunters chapter, and in lexicanum appears (crap) as a GK succesor chapter

So, do you think we´ll be able to see something about Gk in IA 10? Some little piece of fluff of course
By the way, do you know some FW rules that later become GW rules? Did they change?

Offtopic: I have been warned on warseer too. Not banned yet, and I hope not, I have my plogs there


----------



## Azezel

Bolter & chainsword is a civilised place (and ADB) posts there if you feel the utge to stalk a Black Librsry author.

Dakka Dakka is a wretched hive of scum snd villainy - I think they could do eith handing out more warnings and bans.

Heresy is far and away the best of all the 40k forums I've found.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Heresy is far and away the best of all the 40k forums I've found.


Amen to that! :drinks:
Librarium Online (at least back when I was on it) is alright, but their rules on language are too strict (as in, can't even say crap), YET THEY DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO HAVE A LANGUAGE FILTER.
WHUT??


----------



## coke123

Irbian said:


> Just thinking on the Imperial Armour 10 and the Exorcists. There it appears as a daemon hunters chapter, and in lexicanum appears (crap) as a GK succesor chapter
> 
> So, do you think we´ll be able to see something about Gk in IA 10? Some little piece of fluff of course
> By the way, do you know some FW rules that later become GW rules? Did they change?


Exorcists aren't part of the Ordo Malleus, if that's what you mean when you call them daemonhunters. Also, they're not a Grey Knight successor- they're just marines who think that daemons need to be taken care of, and figure that somebody has to deal with it (since no-one's supposed to know about the GK), and that somebody might as well be them.

I don't remember seeing GK in any of the IA10 previews, and one of the previews was the table of contents- listing every chapter in the book.


----------



## Necrosis

coke123 said:


> Exorcists aren't part of the Ordo Malleus, if that's what you mean when you call them daemonhunters. Also, they're not a Grey Knight successor- they're just marines who think that daemons need to be taken care of, and figure that somebody has to deal with it (since no-one's supposed to know about the GK), and that somebody might as well be them.
> 
> I don't remember seeing GK in any of the IA10 previews, and one of the previews was the table of contents- listing every chapter in the book.


The Exorcist marines were are a chapter created by the Inquisition to fight Daemons. Each of them has been possessed by a minor daemon and after a while it is removed from them.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I have over 5000 posts on Heresy, and under 500 on all the others combined. lol

Tells you MY preferences. :wink:


----------



## Katie Drake

TheKingElessar said:


> Tells you MY preferences. :wink:


You prefer to spam Heresy with links to your blog?

_ZING!_


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> You prefer to spam Heresy with links to your blog?
> 
> _ZING!_


OOOOH BURN!
+1, Katie.



Necrosis said:


> The Exorcist marines were are a chapter created by the Inquisition to fight Daemons. Each of them has been possessed by a minor daemon and after a while it is removed from them.


Kinda like how Harlequins are initiated, except that it's Greater Daemons.


----------



## coke123

Necrosis said:


> The Exorcist marines were are a chapter created by the Inquisition to fight Daemons. Each of them has been possessed by a minor daemon and after a while it is removed from them.


Really? May I ask for a source, because I have never come across this.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Grey Knights confirmed for April! Yay 

If you dont want to register here is what the article says :


----------



## GrizBe

APRIL BABY!!! BOO YEAHH!!

*/Start Happy Dance*

:yahoo:


edit: nice how they're keeping everything under wraps appart from mentioning plastic kits. lol. Also... If I'm not mistaken, thats an old GK term in the drawings right? So perhaps style wise they've not changed overly much from the metal?


----------



## Vhalyar

Lovely. But damn, use some new art at least :/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

old drawings reused by GW? GASP!! NEVER!!

I wouldn't bother even thinking about it, GW reuse old pictures all the time and so does everyone else associated with them it seems.

Question is though, will they keep their current size (slightly smaller than SM terminators) or will they make them bigger?


----------



## GrizBe

Rumour says they'd be bulked up towards current scale did it not? I'm guessing they'll be slightly bigger.


----------



## Irbian

Yay! At least! My wallet is starting to tremble. 4 months!

Reading between lines:
"As the Emperor prepared for his final confrontation"
- So, its just a way to talk or we have here the GK origin?

"...against the scions of dark gods and those who dallied with them"
- So, not only against daemons, but his allies too

"Clad in baroque terminator armour"
- Note: Terminatour armour. Not artificer armour. Not Aegis armour

Yeah, yeah, Im reading too much into this perhaps, but Ill search hints wherever I can 

About the exorcists, my current info was lexicanum, and yes, I know that there are no GK in the IA 10, based on what other fellows have been able to see, but I would like a little mention to GK


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> old drawings reused by GW? GASP!! NEVER!!
> 
> I wouldn't bother even thinking about it, GW reuse old pictures all the time and so does everyone else associated with them it seems.
> 
> Question is though, will they keep their current size (slightly smaller than SM terminators) or will they make them bigger?


They reuse art all the time, but that's pretty sad for a codex announcement :biggrin:

"Let's announce a NEW product! Using OLD art to hype it! Brilliant, if I do say so myself *twirls mustache*"


----------



## coke123

If you wanna see reused art, check out the insdie back cover of this months White Dwarf. That's an incredibly old picture of Blood Angels, but that doesn't mean that the new BA models will look like that.

But yeah, this is one good night! Can't wait for preorders to start (although my bank account probably can...)


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Grey Knights confirmed for April! Yay [/IMG]


Beat you by 44 minutes dude 
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=841813


----------



## Doelago

Winterous said:


> Beat you by 44 minutes dude
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=841813


Yea, but this thread is so much cooler than your thread. 


*Fucking awesome!* :yahoo:


----------



## boreas

Joy to the world, the Grey Knight's come!

I've never been so excited to get a GW "Incoming!"

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Congratulations, Grey Knight players.

April will be here before you know it.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Congratulations, Grey Knight players.
> 
> April will be here before you know it.


Let's hope they don't schedule it for April 1st :biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

Winterous said:


> Let's hope they don't schedule it for April 1st :biggrin:


*Sharpens the 'Nemesis Force Weapon MK1', aka, Big stick with nails in it, just incase of that.*


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Let's hope they don't schedule it for April 1st :biggrin:


That would be just cruel. Let's not jinx it...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> Beat you by 44 minutes dude
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=841813


Hmm, didn't see it, and by the power invested in me by the Emperor of Mankind and my Inquisitorial Mandate I shall erase that vile heretic post from this forum!


or not.... 

It should have been posted in this thread though, but I guess you wanted your 15 minutes of fame 

I was honestly starting to doubt an April release expecting GW to put out more DE but this is just fricken awesome. Then again if you listened to The Eternal Warriors podcast they said that the GKs rules were so fucked up by Jervis Johnson that whoever wrote it refused to participate in the White Dwarf battle report. Something like this atleast, it had something to do with the Tervigon being the most sold kit from GW showing that you dont need good rules for a unit for the kit to sell well, meaning GW can and apparently have put up some retarded rules for GK and not bothered balancing them so they can get the kits out faster and make money.

This is the impression I got from listening to the segment on the podcast, correct me if Im wrong though.
Eternal Warriors Podcast


----------



## Winterous

Well let's hope THAT'S not true.


----------



## GrizBe

I doubt it when apparently Jervis had nothing to do with the codex and its meant to be Phil Kelly who's wrote it.


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> I doubt it when apparently Jervis had nothing to do with the codex and its meant to be Phil Kelly who's wrote it.


The rumor is that it's actually Cruddace writing the GK codex, not Jervis or Phil (who's apparently doing the Sisters).


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> This is the impression I got from listening to the segment on the podcast, correct me if Im wrong though.


That's the impression I got as well. However, at the time of listening, I got more the feeling that they were passing on the rumour rather than actually believing it themselves. I'm sceptical about it.

Good to have April confirmed though. Three comps here in NZ, all in Feb/Mar. It would have been nice to have it for them. No complaints here though.


----------



## GrizBe

Vhalyar said:


> The rumor is that it's actually Cruddace writing the GK codex, not Jervis or Phil (who's apparently doing the Sisters).


Wasn't sure which it was, but since Phil had been rumoured to be writing an =I= codex as far back as 2009, I went for him. 

Either way though, Jervis has buggerall to do with it.


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> Phil (who's apparently doing the Sisters).


That's the first time I've heard anyone attach a name to the Sisters' Dex. Do you know something or is it process of elimination (Cruddace=GK, Ward=Necrons, so Kelley must be doing Sisters)?


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Vhalyar said:


> The rumor is that it's actually Cruddace writing the GK codex, not Jervis or Phil (who's apparently doing the Sisters).


Phil would be doing the sisters. :wink: Could not have said it better myself haha


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> This is the impression I got from listening to the segment on the podcast, correct me if Im wrong though.
> Eternal Warriors Podcast


I'm not going to say that this isn't true, but from what I've gathered the Grey Knights are far from overpowered. It's hard to be a completely broken army when you have like 20-25 models on the table at most, especially when really excellent Invulnerable saves are few and far between.


----------



## gen.ahab

I know what my SW are getting for...... Easter. Yeah, Easter. Lol


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not going to say that this isn't true, but from what I've gathered the Grey Knights are far from overpowered. It's hard to be a completely broken army when you have like 20-25 models on the table at most, especially when really excellent Invulnerable saves are few and far between.


So we might see a super elite dex that just fails due to a crap saves roll?
Say rolling five 1s for armour saving losing you 700pt worth of models?


----------



## Purge the Heretic

MadCowCrazy said:


> This one came to mind "On the sisters front, women in armor move slower than men, but they look better doing it. Sisters like their rides."
> 
> Could this mean sisters get Slow and Purposeful? Would it fit them? I think it actually does, I would prefer Relentless but maybe that's too much? Slow n Purposeful is good enough.


Hey Madcow, been awhile.

Stickmonkey has mentioned Dominions quite often lately,I would guess that we may be seeing them as basic troops, or troops with an HQ choice.
As far as the models are concerned, it was over a year and a half ago that we first heard basic details about plastic sisters and the sleeves being a problem.

They seem to have modified them a bit for this "beta" model that SM saw, but that veil makes me wonder if it was a character model meant for metal rather than production, though he says it is a basic model, and the veil is seperate.

I'll have to dissect the post further in a bit.

-Purge

Slimmer bolters makes alot of sense, and the fillagree and detailing we've already heard about.

Anyone want to figure out how much time passed between Stickmonkey's first viewing of the stormraven et all, and this april release? 

I'm at work and can't hit up warseer.


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> So we might see a super elite dex that just fails due to a crap saves roll?
> Say rolling five 1s for armour saving losing you 700pt worth of models?


Not quite that bad as units that expensive are really resilient, but yeah failing key armor saves can really cost you. It's... similar to playing an all Deathwing army, I guess.


----------



## TheKingElessar

...the fuck? I don't come to Heresy for 18 freaking hours, and GW confirms a Grey Knight (not Daemonhunters) Codex.

Great.

Also, I get burnt by KD, and have no chance to respond, make my time. Curses.

Well, congrats GK players, and enjoy the book...I still don't plan to join you, but we shall see I suppose. :grin:


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

This will probably be one of the cheapest Warhammer 40,000 armies to make evah. I mean 20 models with some wargear and a metric shit ton of special rules? Count me in. 

If rumours hold true of course. 


I am so excited, they are how the DE used to be, "I would love to play this army, but the models...." I hate metal. Love the music.

Cheers for the info and for the confirmation from GW. Bout feckin time.


----------



## Necrosis

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> This will probably be one of the cheapest Warhammer 40,000 armies to make evah. I mean 20 models with some wargear and a metric shit ton of special rules? Count me in.
> 
> If rumours hold true of course.
> 
> 
> I am so excited, they are how the DE used to be, "I would love to play this army, but the models...." I hate metal. Love the music.
> 
> Cheers for the info and for the confirmation from GW. Bout feckin time.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Necrosis said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0


That clip sums it up better than anything I could conjure.


----------



## coke123

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> This will probably be one of the cheapest Warhammer 40,000 armies to make evah. I mean 20 models with some wargear and a metric shit ton of special rules? Count me in.


It'll probably balance out, methinks, considering people will be buying all kinds of Land Raiders and Storm Ravens to accompany their 20 models... Although it will make for very short movement phases...

Although I'd laugh if in one release GK went from being possibly the most expensive army to field, to being the cheapest!


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

coke123 said:


> It'll probably balance out, methinks, considering people will be buying all kinds of Land Raiders and Storm Ravens to accompany their 20 models... Although it will make for very short movement phases...
> 
> Although I'd laugh if in one release GK went from being possibly the most expensive army to field, to being the cheapest!


I am laughing all the way to the bank. Literally. Not many people get to actually laugh while walking to a bank. Most of the time you are worried you have somehow lost money. Weird.


----------



## Irbian

NIUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS


Stickmonkey said:


> OK...
> 
> In August 2010...I originally commented on GK being Q1, and during that post I told you all that based on my knowledge jan/Feb wasnt likely...it "could be" March.
> 
> This month I said they had been delayed to later. (albiet I did say 'much' later ) And April is indeed later... So...was I "really" wrong???
> 
> Ha.
> 
> Well more is coming soon and I think the players who have been waiting will be happy.
> 
> I'm not breaking NDA to clarify what I've already stated in the past, so:
> 
> 1. Expect a new codex which expands the fluff greatly.
> 2. Expect plastic Terminator GKs, in scale and compatiable with current plastic Teminators
> 3. Expect plastic power armor sized GKs, whether this armor is actually aegis, annointer, artificer, etc is a mute point, they will be in scale and compatible with all other standard sized marines
> 4. Expect new sculpts of existing metal character minis
> 5. Expect a few "new" plastic kits and metal blisters (for the specific rumored kits see the numerous other threads, I'm not going to reveal anything specific here)
> 6. This will be a wave release, not all of the units of the codex will be represented by models in the release or current ranges
> 7. IMHO, the models are some of the best sculpts I've ever seen out of GW.
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> PS: To my friends in Brisbane and Toowoomba, (esp: Baz, Lachlan, Wynter), and everyone at Battle Station. Stay safe, stay dry. And my God watch over your families. I wish I was there.


Source


----------



## Azezel

'mute pint' Tee hee.


Moving swiftly on - I've just re-read the Incoming! article and Wait, what!? the Grey Knights use sorcery!

How did we miss that?


----------



## coke123

Lolwhat? Well, hopefully that means some useful psychic powers then...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> 'mute pint' Tee hee.
> 
> 
> Moving swiftly on - I've just re-read the Incoming! article and Wait, what!? the Grey Knights use sorcery!
> 
> How did we miss that?


From what I've heard the Grey Knight codex will be excellent for people wanting to do a Thousand Sons count as army


----------



## Winterous

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> This will probably be one of the cheapest Warhammer 40,000 armies to make evah. I mean 20 models with some wargear and a metric shit ton of special rules? Count me in.


Keeping in mind that these boxes will doubtless contain a FUCKLOAD of assorted detail bits, various kinds of weapons, different heads and body pieces, etc.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Winterous said:


> Keeping in mind that these boxes will doubtless contain a FUCKLOAD of assorted detail bits, various kinds of weapons, different heads and body pieces, etc.


Oh yeah, that is why I am such a happy git right now. When is April gonna get here then?


----------



## coke123

Aww, shit, just realised that April puts the GK release smack in the middle of midsemester exams... sigh... guess it'll have to wait till May.


----------



## Winterous

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> Oh yeah, that is why I am such a happy git right now. When is April gonna get here then?


Oh it's awesome for sure, but I'm just clarifying that the presence of all those extra bits will raise the cost a bunch, meaning the army won't be quite so cheap as you expect 

April will get here on April 1st, the day that GW will lol at us and say "APRIL FOOLS! Now buy more stuff.".


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

coke123 said:


> Aww, shit, just realised that April puts the GK release smack in the middle of midsemester exams... sigh... guess it'll have to wait till May.


I know the feeling, however the allure of such great models and the new book will have my attention divided I am sure.



Winterous said:


> Oh it's awesome for sure, but I'm just clarifying that the presence of all those extra bits will raise the cost a bunch, meaning the army won't be quite so cheap as you expect
> 
> April will get here on April 1st, the day that GW will lol at us and say "APRIL FOOLS! Now buy more stuff.".


You are right, I wonder how many models will come in each set. I am guessing 10 PAGK and 3 PAGK with them being priced a little higher than their vanilla counterparts.


----------



## coke123

Personally, I don't think they'd be too much more than tactical marines. Tac squads are already $62 over here, they can't really justify it being too much higher. Plus even if there are tons of extras, it still probably won't have to have the diverse range of weapons that tacticals do- just psycannons, incinerators and maybe a couple more special weapons- so the sprue size should be about the same.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Personally, I don't think they'd be too much more than tactical marines. Tac squads are already $62 over here, they can't really justify it being too much higher. Plus even if there are tons of extras, it still probably won't have to have the diverse range of weapons that tacticals do- just psycannons, incinerators and maybe a couple more special weapons- so the sprue size should be about the same.


First of all, they'll most likely have different types of Nemesis Force Weapons that you can choose from, even if it's just aesthetic.
Second, I was talking about the Terminators, so that if you DO take a 20 model army then GW isn't missing out on as much profit.


----------



## coke123

Ah, my fault. Thought you were talking about PAGK. Yeah, I could see terminators being $80, which mind you would still be cheaper than they are at the moment.

If they make them too expensive though, one can expect a whole heap of conversions from vanilla termies, rather than buying the actual ones, so I guess they really have to strike a balance.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Ah, my fault. Thought you were talking about PAGK. Yeah, I could see terminators being $80, which mind you would still be cheaper than they are at the moment.
> 
> If they make them too expensive though, one can expect a whole heap of conversions from vanilla termies, rather than buying the actual ones, so I guess they really have to strike a balance.


My point is that they'll certainly be more expensive than regular Terminators, but this will be balanced by not only amazing quality, but fantastic _looking_ models.


----------



## GrizBe

> 4. Expect new sculpts of existing metal character minis


So is that a new Stern, or are Grandmasters and the =I= included with that? Either way a new Stern would be cool, especially if he's usefull now.

The other thing with it being a wave release.... 

'Units in the codex not represented by models availible on launch, or in the current range.' 

Given whats rumoured to be in the codex, and we know we're getting the plastic GK's for defiante... what does that leave? GK Vehicles, the 'Uberdread'? Something we've heard nothing about that will blow our minds?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> So is that a new Stern, or are Grandmasters and the =I= included with that? Either way a new Stern would be cool, especially if he's usefull now.
> 
> The other thing with it being a wave release....
> 
> 'Units in the codex not represented by models availible on launch, or in the current range.'
> 
> Given whats rumoured to be in the codex, and we know we're getting the plastic GK's for defiante... what does that leave? GK Vehicles, the 'Uberdread'? Something we've heard nothing about that will blow our minds?


I would assume the old Inquisitor models might get a slight update as well.


----------



## equitypetey

As for price it'll be like the sanguinary guard for the pagk, 5 in a box for £20. A 1500 point army will come out at the same price as most. Few boxes of pagk, a box of termies, hq and a landraider/stormraven or two and it will be coming out about £200 ish as most armies will


----------



## OpTi

equitypetey said:


> As for price it'll be like the sanguinary guard for the pagk, 5 in a box for £20. A 1500 point army will come out at the same price as most. Few boxes of pagk, a box of termies, hq and a landraider/stormraven or two and it will be coming out about £200 ish as most armies will


unless you're like me and you want every LR and rhino to have a full set of FW upgrades making a rhino about £40 each :/


----------



## Irbian

About the stormraven. The black boxes are in some stores:


ancient god said:


> I've only seen the sprues so far. So all I can say is it is the same model we've seen (obviously) and it looks to be well-cast. It's got 4 icons each for GK and BA and one generic pilot with AdMech markings plus a hardwired servitor manning the gun turret. All weapon options are included.
> 
> I can't say anything about it's overall appearance as it won't be assembled before mid January.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

FUCK AN A ... I have been waiting for these damn things. These and the Plastic Furioso.:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:


----------



## Azezel

He says 'all weapon options', but doesn't say if that includes psi-cannons, or some Grey Knight equivalent of those Blood Angel missiles the name of which currently escapes me.


----------



## LordWaffles

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not going to say that this isn't true, but from what I've gathered the Grey Knights are far from overpowered. It's hard to be a completely broken army when you have like 20-25 models on the table at most, especially when really excellent Invulnerable saves are few and far between.


Can the squads pop vehicles equivalent to twice the number of squads you have on the table? Otherwise you're looking at an army that shits on nids and nobody else.

I'm expecting fantastic models with shit tier competitive rules. There is no way a footslogging army of high points is going to win regardless of the special rules.
Color me impressed if they sell a single box to a competitive person.


----------



## TheKingElessar

LordWaffles said:


> Can the squads pop vehicles equivalent to twice the number of squads you have on the table? Otherwise you're looking at an army that shits on nids and nobody else.
> 
> I'm expecting fantastic models with shit tier competitive rules. There is no way a footslogging army of high points is going to win regardless of the special rules.
> Color me impressed if they sell a single box to a competitive person.


Conversions, bro.


----------



## Winterous

LordWaffles said:


> Can the squads pop vehicles equivalent to twice the number of squads you have on the table? Otherwise you're looking at an army that shits on nids and nobody else.
> 
> I'm expecting fantastic models with shit tier competitive rules. There is no way a footslogging army of high points is going to win regardless of the special rules.
> Color me impressed if they sell a single box to a competitive person.


Ever think that maybe they're trying to move AWAY from Transporthammer?


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Ever think that maybe they're trying to move AWAY from Transporthammer?


Grey Knights actually don't need transports to get around fast, though there are a couple available, so it's all good.

To expand on this, what a lot of people are missing is that 5th isn't MechHammer like most people think. It's _mobility_ hammer. It just so happens that the vast majority of armies get mobility best/cheapest through transports.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Grey Knights actually don't need transports to get around fast, though there are a couple available, so it's all good.


Exactly, these upcoming GK are a step in the right direction.
The FUN direction.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> The FUN direction.


Remember, different people enjoy different things. There are _lots_ of people who enjoy having a lot of vehicles. I'm one of them, actually. I always hated that every non-Land Speeder vehicle that I took in 4th made my army progressively worse.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Katie Drake said:


> Grey Knights actually don't need transports to get around fast, though there are a couple available, so it's all good.
> 
> To expand on this, what a lot of people are missing is that 5th isn't MechHammer like most people think. It's _mobility_ hammer. It just so happens that the vast majority of armies get mobility best/cheapest through transports.


Yes, but the additional protection is vital too. I have won games while barely killing any enemy models because I was able to preserve mine so well, and I simply cannot see how GKTs are going to be able to do this without bitching rules that nerf the shit out of Nids (eg. army-wide Night Fight to shoot them and S6 Force Weps.)


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Remember, different people enjoy different things. There are _lots_ of people who enjoy having a lot of vehicles. I'm one of them, actually. I always hated that every non-Land Speeder vehicle that I took in 4th made my army progressively worse.


Oh vehicles are good, they add a lot to the game, but having EVERYTHING in a transport is just bleh.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Winterous said:


> Oh vehicles are good, they add a lot to the game, but having EVERYTHING in a transport is just bleh.


Not when it's fluffy! Which is most of the time.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> eg. army-wide Night Fight to shoot them


I don't think Nids would give a toss if they had that 

And from what I understand the NFW aren't going to be S6 anymore, but have the ability to be Power weapons, somehow.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sure they would. How do you thin them out with T-Fexes, Harpies and Hive Guard if they are immune to being shot from far away, have a 2+ save, and probably have 2W?!?


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> I would assume the old Inquisitor models might get a slight update as well.


Can we be sure Inquistors will be in the codex? It is going to be Codex: Grey Knight after all. I think they might not even make an appearance. I know some rumours suggest otherwise, and I'll be glad to be wrong (I've spent too much time and money on my inquisitors and henchmen to have them benched) but I can't help but have a niggling doubt in my mind that they are gone from this one. Bah! Perhaps I've been tainted.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Sure they would. How do you thin them out with T-Fexes, Harpies and Hive Guard if they are immune to being shot from far away, have a 2+ save, and probably have 2W?!?


You swarm them with Hormagaunts, obviously


----------



## Mathai

Tuatara said:


> Can we be sure Inquistors will be in the codex? It is going to be Codex: Grey Knight after all. I think they might not even make an appearance. I know some rumours suggest otherwise, and I'll be glad to be wrong (I've spent too much time and money on my inquisitors and henchmen to have them benched) but I can't help but have a niggling doubt in my mind that they are gone from this one. Bah! Perhaps I've been tainted.


 
While I do hope they have a more limited role in the new codex, I dont think they would completely remove the Inquisition preseance. For starters, that would irk alot of people that so much of their stuff becomes completely useless. But I also think that if they removed everything non Space Marine, then the new codex would become a little too much the next flavour of Space Marine 'dex, and even GW has to know that they cant release too much SM or they risk alienating their fanbase a little too much.


----------



## VanitusMalus

I'm surprised they're being released in April and yet I haven't seen one picture of any of the new releases except that ugly Stormraven.


----------



## boreas

Well, every so often I check HO, Dakka and Warseer for news... Twenty-thirty times per day falls under "every so often" right?... Right?

Phil


----------



## Irbian

boreas said:


> Well, every so often I check HO, Dakka and Warseer for news... Twenty-thirty times per day falls under "every so often" right?... Right?
> 
> Phil


Yeah... what a desperate gamer you are... not like me, searching with google to see if there were pictures or news outside the main forums like I did yesterday... and the day before yesterday... and so on...

If you would get heresy reputation based on the times you see the same page, I´d be web owner by now :biggrin:


----------



## Vhalyar

I remember some posters being worried about iconography on the Storm Raven. Apparently we're covered:



ancient god at Warseer said:


> I've only seen the sprues so far. So all I can say is it is the same model we've seen (obviously) and it looks to be well-cast. It's got 4 icons each for GK and BA and one generic pilot with AdMech markings plus a hardwired servitor manning the gun turret. All weapon options are included.





ancient god at Warseer said:


> Nope they're full blown 3D icons, much like the ones the Baal Pred comes with. Only that they're the Blood Angels winged drop and the GK book and sword.


The Mechanicus pilot might be a bit weird if like the rumors say the SR can use psychic powers.


----------



## boreas

Haha, so, in an ironic twist of fate, GK will be the last updated Space Marines. Just when GW finally decides to update point costs and rules in a FAQ, we don't get it because we're 3 months out. 

In the same vein, no update for SoB rhinos or similar stuff in a FAQ. Ahhh, GW, I did promise myself I wouldn't nerdrage in 2011...

Phil


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> Haha, so, in an ironic twist of fate, GK will be the last updated Space Marines. Just when GW finally decides to update point costs and rules in a FAQ, we don't get it because we're 3 months out.



Thanks for the heads up on new FAQs, time to read all of them


----------



## TheKingElessar

SoBs are getting a radical rewrite sure. Minor tweaks aren't more than a band-aid.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Gotta love this sentence :
"and we therefore produce regular updates for all of our army books"...

Regular for GW is like once every century for the rest of the world...


----------



## boreas

TheKingElessar said:


> SoBs are getting a radical rewrite sure. Minor tweaks aren't more than a band-aid.


Sure, but since they're due to bleed for the next 18-20 months, I'm pretty sure the band-aid would be welcomed 

Phil

ps no "women and bleeding" jokes :ireful2: :biggrin:


----------



## firstandonly246

Hey kinda new here, I tried reading through the entire thread but its 277 pages long so I gave up on page 1. Anyways, I was wondering if there were any rumours about a Grey Knight libby or a chaplain?


----------



## Necrosis

All the rumors are on page 1.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

firstandonly246 said:


> Hey kinda new here, I tried reading through the entire thread but its 277 pages long so I gave up on page 1. Anyways, I was wondering if there were any rumours about a Grey Knight libby or a chaplain?


Welcome, you dont have to read through the entire thing. I do that work for you, if there has been something posted here or elsewhere that is of interest it will be on the first page of this thread. It's that simple.

One thing Im kind of interested in though is the possibility of female DH, in the Inquisitor game there is one .
There has been mention of a female with 2 storm bolters on her wrists, could this be a new special character? Well, duuh, it would have to be now wouldn't it.


----------



## firstandonly246

Necrosis said:


> All the rumors are on page 1.


doh i feel a bit noobish now, thanks.


----------



## Necrosis

firstandonly246 said:


> doh i feel a bit noobish now, thanks.


Not to worry we were all once like you before.


----------



## Irbian

Yeah, with skullniples

But I dont dislike the 54 mm models. Im just... impatient.


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> One thing Im kind of interested in though is the possibility of female DH, in the Inquisitor game there is one .


I have that model and the one of Eisenhorn. Not because I play the game but because the models looked so cool. In real life they pretty neat. Especially being much bigger than the 40K models. Have put Eisenhorn one together (needed a fair amount of filing and green stuff to make it fit nicely together) but have not painted it yet. Have not started on the Demonhuntress as I want to improve my skill set first.

Nice models though.


----------



## Bindi Baji

firstandonly246 said:


> doh i feel a bit noobish now, thanks.


We've all been there, 
Just bear in mind that in most normal forums you have to slog through 200 pages of bilge and if you dare to ask for a rehash you will likely get told to frell off.

This place isn't normal, remember that and you'll be fine. :wink:


----------



## bitsandkits

Bindi Baji said:


> This place isn't normal, remember that and you'll be fine. :wink:


hey !you cant spell abnormal without normal !


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Gotta love this sentence :
> "and we therefore produce regular updates for all of our army books"...
> 
> Regular for GW is like once every century for the rest of the world...


Regular does not mean often. For example, England regularly produces legendary right-hand batsmen... Once every 25 years.


----------



## coke123

I was interested in learning ninjutsu at one point, and the instructor I was looking into claimed to make regular trips to japan for study. Thing is, he only did it every decade. 'Regular' is just another way to trick people into thinking something happens often.


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> ps no "women and bleeding" jokes :ireful2: :biggrin:


...Damnit...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> ps no "women and bleeding" jokes :ireful2: :biggrin:


IT'S TEATIME FOR DREADWARD CULLEN!







On topic and off topic at the same time, sanity is for the weak!


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> IT'S TEATIME FOR DREADWARD CULLEN!​




I _LOVE_ that that took off! :king:​


----------



## Akhara'Keth

MadCowCrazy said:


> IT'S TEATIME FOR DREADWARD CULLEN!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On topic and off topic at the same time, sanity is for the weak!


Made my day!:grin:


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> On topic and off topic at the same time, sanity is for the weak!


I can't imagine how you got banned from Warseer, MCC, you're such a classy chap...


----------



## Irbian

Claaaaaasic!

Im going to do a squad of sanguinary guards called "Twlight vampires" and they´ll shine. Dont know how, but they´ll shine....


----------



## Necrosis

Irbian said:


> Claaaaaasic!
> 
> Im going to do a squad of sanguinary guards called "Twlight vampires" and they´ll shine. Dont know how, but they´ll shine....


Just put some glitter on them.


----------



## boreas

Paint the skin with a mixture (50-50) of elf flesh and metallic medium. Metallic medium is "white" metallic paint, paler, even, that mythril silver. Diluted wash of Ogryn Flesh. Highlight with very diluted metallic medium. You should get something close to Edward!

Phil


----------



## Irbian

ok, i was just kidding, but I think I could try some kind of diorama with some mutilated edward


----------



## boreas

Here, I give you Servidward:


----------



## Irbian

I have just seen the ultramarines movies. I have only one sentence for it "Im fucker McFuck motherfucker, the fuckest fucker in this fucking world"

Ok, they dont say it but it would be cool

Ontopic, I miss the stormraven pictures. With the model out there in the black boxes I dont understand why dont we have (more) pictures yet


----------



## OpTi

quick question, roughly how close to codex release were the pictures of BA and DE kits "leaked"? or at least started popping up on forums etc.

If anyone knows


----------



## TheReverend

boreas said:


> Here, I give you Servidward:


Liking the lipstick...

Rev


----------



## Azezel

OpTi said:


> quick question, roughly how close to codex release were the pictures of BA and DE kits "leaked"? or at least started popping up on forums etc.
> 
> If anyone knows


The first DE images (a photo of a page from the codex and a completed Kabalite Warrior) appeared in mid September, with the Codex appearing in November. Although I recal a concept-art image a lot earlier than that.

If that holds true, expect Grey Knight images sometime next month.


----------



## OpTi

Azezel said:


> The first DE images (a photo of a page from the codex and a completed Kabalite Warrior) appeared in mid September, with the Codex appearing in November. Although I recal a concept-art image a lot earlier than that.
> 
> If that holds true, expect Grey Knight images sometime next month.


taa muchly mi old cock, i'll just have to sit here and twitch till then


----------



## Irbian

Don´t thanks me, thank BramGaunt on Warseer


----------



## Irbian

Doublepost:

jimbo1701 have made some anotations on the pictures.


----------



## boreas

It's definitely got GK icons on the sprue!!!

Phil


----------



## equitypetey

no gk weapons though, was hoping to see some psycannon action going on


----------



## Azezel

Mm, no Psyannons there, and yet, the GK logos _are_ there, so it's not like they are planing to sell the same kit with two different upgrade sprues (Red Space Marine sprue, Silver Space Marine sprue, and in a few months time, sprues for Blue, Black, Green and Grey Space Marines).

Either the GK Thunk won't have psycannons, or they'll make you buy metal ones seperately/convert your own.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

2 Completely new rumours in this one ; Callidus sword is now just a power weapon, Obliteratorish HS choice.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Hmmm Ive taken with the usual Wheelybin of salt and im still skeptical :S

ADMech Skitarii(?) that can morph weapons like oblits? when every other source say that GW is trying to tone the inquistion influence in this codex. I admit GK definitely need to be able to feild more AT to cope with the Mech meta game but I just dont feel like that fits in.

As to the the C`TAN phase sword being a normal PW now? could happen, but it would go against everything in the fluff, and that is kinda the signature of the Calliduis. Considering this codex is meant to be daemonslayers ( Baddies with LOTS of Invuns...) losing an anti-invun sword would be like a kick in the nuts.

However, there was an interesting point:
"A typical GK army wil be 3 or so squads of men, a squad of termies, a HQ, possibly an extra squad of termies that the HQ unlocks and 3 Dreads and a landraider."

Currently due to the FOC this army would be illegal, so either:
-LR can be taken as dedicated transport (out of heavy support like BA?)
-Dreads can be taken (a) as elites (b) multiple can be taken for a single FOC

Otherwise I cant see how you could fit that all in.......( the salt may be making me think too much  lol)

However on a side note: I did hear the following rumours of a GW manager (So not reliable then )
-Daemonhammer forces succesful invulnreble saves to be re-rolled (like astorath or Null zone)
-Special ammunition (namely wound on 2+ hellfire) can be unlocked for storm bolters Vs.Daemons
-Storm Raven is definitely in (weve all seen the GK logos on the sprue now!) and has possibility to outflank.
-LR can deepstrike like BA

Still holding out for keeping Str.6 despite the rumours!!!!


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Azezel said:


> Mm, no Psyannons there, and yet, the GK logos _are_ there, so it's not like they are planing to sell the same kit with two different upgrade sprues (Red Space Marine sprue, Silver Space Marine sprue, and in a few months time, sprues for Blue, Black, Green and Grey Space Marines).
> 
> Either the GK Thunk won't have psycannons, or they'll make you buy metal ones seperately/convert your own.


Ive been trying to judge scale from the Pics, beacuase if GW have continued the trend of modular kits it should mean that FW parts will fit onto it. From the look of it, it seems as if the top turret is the same size as a razorback ring, so the FW pyscannons should fit on.










Furthermore, It looks as if the Doors, hatches and interiors are the same as the rhino (save sculpting costs maybe?) which means that you should be able to fit these onto you storm raven!









(Sprue showing front hatch =rhino and side doors=rhino hopefully )



















MadCowCrazy: Tried to fix the broken links


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2 Completely new rumours in this one ; Callidus sword is now just a power weapon, Obliteratorish HS choice.
> 
> YouTube - Fritz 40K Vcast: Grey Knights


I'm calling bullshit on the Jokero. Last time I checked, Jokero are xenos, and I doubt that the Inquisition would work with xenos scum.

However, Dreadward Cullen the Mystical MC might be obliteratorish- I kinda envisaged it as a 'close combat obliterator'.

Sucks about the C'tan Phase Sword, but considering the other 'facts' he has put forward I'm not too sure...


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I'm calling bullshit on the Jokero. Last time I checked, Jokero are xenos, and I doubt that the Inquisition would work with xenos scum.


Dude, Inquisitors work with aliens often.
Some of them hire ORKS as mercenaries (obviously Flash Gits, they like money more than fighting).


----------



## boreas

Wasn't there a rumor that, despite the name, this codex would be GK and =I= and that Codex: Sisters of Battle would be SoB and Ecclesiarchy?

As for C'tan phase sword, it might have been a necessity to keep the Callidus' price to reasonable levels? 

Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

boreas said:


> As for C'tan phase sword, it might have been a necessity to keep the Callidus' price to reasonable levels?
> 
> Phil


I think it has more to do with GW changing things so that Invulnerable saves function like they do in the rulebook - something that's always available except when there aren't any Wounds being caused like being killed by Jaws of the World Wolf or being ran over by a tank. I'd be rather surprised if the C'tan phase sword didn't at least force passed Invulnerable saves to be re-rolled, though. If Astorath can do it with some power axe, an Assassin should manage too.


----------



## Irbian

By the way, Im the only one who thinks that we have a low levels of rumours? or its only my imagination?


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> By the way, Im the only one who thinks that we have a low levels of rumours? or its only my imagination?


The Blood of Kitten rumors are pretty big.


----------



## GrizBe

But nothing we hadn't heard already... or that hasn't been compeltely rubbished by the more trusted rumour merchants.


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> But nothing we hadn't heard already... or that hasn't been compeltely rubbished by the more trusted rumour merchants.


Such as, in both cases? I don't recall anyone discrediting the BoK rumors. I'm rereading them to double-check, and I don't understand your "we've already heard it about"; there's some repeats, but most of the rumors were new, on top of giving additional details on the old ones.


----------



## Necrosis

I can see the Callidus assassin getting a power sword if all her attacks cause instant death or remove the model from play or something like that.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think most people are forgetting that the assassins will most likely get a new stat line, who knows, maybe they come with A10 or some such insane amount if you chose the Eversor or Callidus, maybe the Callidus will work like the Blood Talon dread meaning you get to do more attacks for every wound you do.
They are ASSASSINS after all and should be deadly, with their current stats they are rather useless. You are lucky if your assassin even lives trough the first round of CC.

It would be fun if they also included entries for Vanus and Venenum assassins but afaik they wont, "A word in your ear" should be a Vanus ability if I ever saw one.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Dude, Inquisitors work with aliens often.
> Some of them hire ORKS as mercenaries (obviously Flash Gits, they like money more than fighting).


Alright. Still, I hope it doesn't happen, and I still highly doubt it. Plus, this book is meant to be a Grey Knights codex, and I can't see them teaming up with freaky orang-utan men. Radicals I could see using them, but since the book is about Grey Knights, I'd certainly hope there's a stronger focus on Puritans.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Alright. Still, I hope it doesn't happen, and I still highly doubt it. Plus, this book is meant to be a Grey Knights codex, and I can't see them teaming up with freaky orang-utan men. Radicals I could see using them, but since the book is about Grey Knights, I'd certainly hope there's a stronger focus on Puritans.


Oh I agree, certainly.
For a start the... Whatever they're called are described (on Lexicanum) as impossible to hold in captivity, since they'll just build something to escape.
And they possess no understood means of communication, so telling them what to do is a fruitless exercise.

I think they'd make an INTERESTING unit, but a very unfluffy one, unless they retconned it in.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Oh I agree, certainly.
> For a start the... Whatever they're called are described (on Lexicanum)


Jokero. Emphasis on the joke.


----------



## Kettu

Jokero are utilised often by the Imperium for many things.

BUT...

How do you convince a Hyper Intelligent, Non-sentient animal to fight for you?
That'd be like ANZAC troops rounding up Cassowaries and coaxing them to attack the Turkish in WW1.
Cassowaries with the means to MacGyver their way out of anything.

As awesome an image that would be, it just wouldn't work.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> Jokero are utilised often by the Imperium for many things.
> 
> BUT...
> 
> How do you convince a Hyper Intelligent, Non-sentient animal to fight for you?


Exactly; the Imperium manipulates them in order to get what they want (ie: Digital weapons), but they can't FORCE them to do anything.


----------



## Azezel

The Inquisition is a funny thing.

I can fully see a radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor using Jokero, just as I can see a Radical Malleus Inquisitor using Daemonhosts.

BUT, I'm pretty sure the moment the Ordo Xenos starts messing with Daemonhosts, even Radical Malleus Inquisitors would come kill them. - and the moment the Malleus starts employing aliens, the Xenos will open fire.


Having said that, I could see Daemonhosts replicating the powers of Obliterators, which is what kicked this off. I could also see a Daemonhost model looking like a nasty orange ape monster.


----------



## Tuatara

Azezel said:


> BUT, I'm pretty sure the moment the Ordo Xenos starts messing with Daemonhosts, even Radical Malleus Inquisitors would come kill them. - and the moment the Malleus starts employing aliens, the Xenos will open fire.


You're right. Eisenhorn, of Ordo Xenos, used a daemonhost, and had the Inquisition after him, but only those that felt threatened by him. They went after him because he threatened their power base (and to expose a few of them) and not for any righteous reasons. Ravenor consorted with filthy Eldar scum as well.

Back on topic, I would have loved the chance to put a radical inquisitor army together (complete with daemonhosts et al)and was planning to do so. But now I'll wait for the new codex. If they ever come out with an Inquisition codex (unlikely, but it would be nice) I'd like to see options for varying degrees of radicalism from puritan right through to fully fledged "turned to the dark side". It would be awesome.


----------



## IanC

Would a Witch Hunters Inquisitor that uses Psychic powers be considered radical? After all, they hunt after "witches".


----------



## Azezel

A Hereticus Inquisitor wouldn't be considered a radical merely for using Psykers (or being one herself).

Certainly no puritan would do so, but radical/puritan is not a boolean either/or sort of thing. One can be in the middle.

In any event, while all witches are Psykers, not all Psykers are witches. 'Witch' isn't a specifically defined term, but it generally means any Psyker not sanctioned by the Imperium.


----------



## Necrosis

IanC said:


> Would a Witch Hunters Inquisitor that uses Psychic powers be considered radical? After all, they hunt after "witches".


No cause they are sanctioned. A witch is a rouge psyker or an unsanctioned psyker.


----------



## Irbian

Thanks ancient god for dreadnought pictures:

Yeah, they arent stormraven pictures, but... you know...


----------



## Bindi Baji

Necrosis said:


> A witch is a rouge psyker or an unsanctioned psyker.


So what you are saying is that they are painted red?

:scratchhead:

"What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?"


----------



## Irbian

Ancient god strikes back. Seems like he read my last post or something


----------



## boreas

That thing is growing on me... I'm honestly starting to like it!


----------



## Vhalyar

That turret has to go. Thankfully it looks like it'll be the easiest of conversions.


----------



## Katie Drake

boreas said:


> That thing is growing on me... I'm honestly starting to like it!


Yeah, me too. It looks so much better from all these different angles. I said it before and I'll say it again - I'm getting two.


----------



## Tuatara

boreas said:


> That thing is growing on me


Really? Maybe it's a tumour.

Seriously though, it does look kinda cool. Although a little dissappointed it has got any psycannons installed (same with that dred as well). Still itching to paint it in Nemo colours though.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

It definitely looks a lot better here than any other photo that I have seen here. It is definitely growing on me and i think my GK could do with a couple.

I dont actully think the turret looks that retarded (although i will probably swap it for the razorback turret) but the tails at the end still look shite IMO


----------



## GrizBe

I'd like to see it with the Hurricane Bolter sponsons, but it does look a thousand times better then the 'official' picture we got of it.

Agree about the turret though. Really it needs to be made lower, along with the vent. They both stick up too much right now.


----------



## Dynamike

I definitly like the Storm Raven. I think it has a lot of details and shapes that makes it interesting.

I do appreciate to see all those pictures as, like many of you, I am quite excited with the new GK coming out as I know it will be my next army(my 2nd personnally). But what I am mostly waiting for is to see how the actual GK and TGK will look like. It will be really special to see all the details and changes they made. Let's all wish for the best!


----------



## ShotgunDiplomacy

I think the turret looks ok it's just the tail that looks really stupid and the front just looks really awkward:s What price will it be anyway?


----------



## Katie Drake

ShotgunDiplomacy said:


> I think the turret looks ok it's just the tail that looks really stupid and the front just looks really awkward:s What price will it be anyway?


I'd guess the same as the Imperial Guard Valkyrie.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I've always liked the way it looks, even from the early pictures. I looked exactly like I was expecting it to do, a LR strapped to a Valkyrie.
If you dont like it, dont buy it. If you dont like it but need one then convert your own.

I will be picking up at least one of these next month, a furioso dread as well just to have one.


----------



## exsulis

*StormRaven*

There are a few good tutorials on building a Stormraven like this one.

Though I do admit that I only like GW's model from the top.


----------



## Winterous

Irbian said:


> Thanks ancient god for dreadnought pictures:
> 
> Yeah, they arent stormraven pictures, but... you know...



Awesome!
And the Storm Raven too.

I love the turret on it, it looks like a crude version of a Falcon turret, like the Imperium are trying to imitate it.


----------



## Mathai

Even though doing something like that would be heretical.


----------



## Irbian

Just you know people, I appreciate the reputation gained, but I like to remember that I just post the pictures here but *they arent mine*. Im just reposting the "ancient god" pictures here. Just the messenger  But thanks again

Yesterday I had a really weird dream where I readed something like "the dreadnought will be only to educational purposes in the codex" XD I think I need to read the forums less


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I would have given you rep as well but I need to spread it out some more it seems.
It does not matter if they are yours or not, it's the fact that you posted them or links too them. None of the rumours in this thread are mine, I just search every forum I know of and post what I find. So just shut up and feel appreciated 


Pre-Orders are up btw


----------



## Irbian

Ok ok, I feel appreciated :king:

Here, some snuggies more then :

Dreanought on Games Workshop
Stormraven on Games Workshop
Blood Angeles army article with several pictures


----------



## coke123

I've already raged on the storm raven thread, but I'll do it here too-

The Storm Raven is $110! Aaaargh!

I guess the idea of a budget army has gone out the window. Land Raiders are cheaper...

EDIT: Nice to see theres a BA Battleforce now (even if they have only replaced the scouts with Death Company)- gives me hope for a GK one down the track.


----------



## Irbian

coke123 is right:

BA Battleforce

And for price:
BA Battleforce = 80 €

Death Company = 26€
Assault = 25€
Tactic = 30€
Rhino = 26€
= 107€

Aprox. 25% discount if im right


----------



## Irbian

About the dreadknight/knight titans:



TacticalWarGames.Net said:


> The PSI titans were never developed fully. Only the original Adeptus Titanicus rulebook has a little fluff of them:
> 
> "The Divisio Telepathica operates the dreaded Psi-titans, and is somewhat smaller than either the Divisio Militaris and Divisio Mandati. The telepath orders, each operate from a secret Forge World near the heart of the Imperium".
> 
> So that's that. However, the volume one of the Imperial Armour states that Mars has three titan legions, two of which are classified. Hmmmm.
> 
> And after I had looked up that little piece of fluff above I realized that there is insignia for the Divisio Telepathica in p.7 of the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook.
> 
> Not sure if GW would try to retcon Psi-Titans to fit for the GK, but it could be an interesting concept if ForgeWorld were to give it a try. I don't see the 'Dread-Knight' really being a Psi-Titan even if they are slightly smaller.


About the stormraven and others chapters:


Frgt/10 said:


> told you all it looked better from other angles
> and to settle the argument; the feb white dwarf will let it be used in all marine chapters, not just BA and GKs.
> 
> 
> 
> Gobsmakked said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that oval base the same size as a Trygon's? How big is this thing?
> 
> 
> 
> big
Click to expand...


----------



## coke123

Irbian said:


> coke123 is right:
> 
> BA Battleforce
> 
> And for price:
> BA Battleforce = 80 €
> 
> Death Company = 26€
> Assault = 25€
> Tactic = 30€
> Rhino = 26€
> = 107€
> 
> Aprox. 25% discount if im right


God that's a crap set. Worse than the Vanilla one- swap the combat squad for death company, and drop the scouts altogether, then increase the price. Yeah, that's right- Vanilla Battleforce, $AU150 - BA Battleforce, $AU165. Christ, there better be a metric shitton of the most awesome bits in there to make up for it.


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> God that's a crap set. Worse than the Vanilla one- swap the combat squad for death company, and drop the scouts altogether, then increase the price. Yeah, that's right- Vanilla Battleforce, - BA Battleforce, . Christ, there better be a metric shitton of the most awesome bits in there to make up for it.


On the bright side, you get Death Compan- Oh wait that isn't a bright side.
Sweet models, but the unit isn't commonly used, and the ass-tonne of bits you get don't get you far without bodies to put them on.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> I've already raged on the storm raven thread, but I'll do it here too-
> 
> The Storm Raven is $110! Aaaargh!
> 
> I guess the idea of a budget army has gone out the window. Land Raiders are cheaper...
> 
> EDIT: Nice to see theres a BA Battleforce now (even if they have only replaced the scouts with Death Company)- gives me hope for a GK one down the track.


Then let me introduce you to this!

Oh, GW put out a teaser trailer on youtube. I could have said FIRST! but I'm not a tard


----------



## coke123

*Runs that currency conversion through XE.com* :shok:. On the plus side, I think I can now afford to spam Storm Ravens. On the dowside, my head just exploded, which means yet another trip to the biomedical engineering department.

Usually I'd feel bad about not supporting my local GW, but I think I may make an exception on this front...

Even after shipping, that costs less than a falcon. Holy crap, I knew Britain had it good, but that's just plain unfair. I assume it's that rate purely because it's an online store?

And as to that trailer, I must ask, is it really worth putting that up on youtube? All they did was show pictures currently on their website, and add music...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> *Runs that currency conversion through XE.com* :shok:. On the plus side, I think I can now afford to spam Storm Ravens. On the dowside, my head just exploded, which means yet another trip to the biomedical engineering department.
> 
> Usually I'd feel bad about not supporting my local GW, but I think I may make an exception on this front...
> 
> Even after shipping, that costs less than a falcon. Holy crap, I knew Britain had it good, but that's just plain unfair. I assume it's that rate purely because it's an online store?
> 
> And as to that trailer, I must ask, is it really worth putting that up on youtube? All they did was show pictures currently on their website, and add music...


Ive heard you ozzies have it bad, I live on a small shitty island that is part of Finland and we dont even have a GW store here. We have a toystore that has some GW stock and we can order in what we like but it will always be at full RRP.
The first time I went and took a look I was rather shocked at the prices and the lack of products available in the shop but I did not know we could simply order in anything we like through the local club owner.

Anyways, I started looking for prices online and found some webshops in the UK (I tried looking at swedish and finnish webshops but they are all RRP) and found some I really liked.
There was one that had 20% off, free world wide postage and accepted paypal. That was my first webstore and I saved literally thousands by buying from it but they closed down early last year and decided only to offer their products to people in the UK. I cant even remember the name of the webshop.

Anyways, if you take a look at a simple Battleforce, I prefer to use the IG one for comparison. The current price for a Cadian Battle Force
UK 56.50£
Euro 85€ = 71,7£ or 114.6USD or 27% higher price
(did not get affected by VAT change in the UK... wonder why...... /end sarcasm)
US 95$ = 59,4£ or 70,5€ or 5% higher price
Canada 115$ = 72,3£ or 85,8€ or 28% higher price
Australia 155$ 97,3£ or 115,4€ or *72% HIGHER PRICE*
Sweden 765kr = 72,1£ or 85,5€ or 27,6% higher price

The percentages are roughly rounded. Do the maths yourself if you want exact values.
I never realized just how bad you ozzies had it, 72% more is just insane!
If you buy from maelstrom who offer 10% off at all times and very often 17.5% off you would literally be buying at 99.5% cheaper than in Australia!! (By looking at it from an additive point of view, from a reverse of that it would be 49,7% cheaper than at the local Ozzy store. No need to try and correct me, my math is sound. If you dont understand it then it's because your not as insane as I am :crazy
Basically you would be getting 2 boxes for the price of 1 at your local GW.
Holy shit you guys got it bad, you should really tell your friends about maelstrom or any other uk based webstore that offers world wide shipping.

Im using the prices listed on GWs website.
As you can see the Ozzies are getting shafted pretty badly by GW, one could blame it on there not being a GW manufacturer there which is kinda odd since Im sure they could find some cheap labour in china like every other god damned large company. They already have their bags and such made in Asia as far as I know, atleast my GW bags were shipped from Taiwan on the package sticker that came on the boxes.

An example I like to use when describing GWs insane currency practises is this : If I buy for more than 35€ from the UK GW store and pay for postage as well it's cheaper than if I buy from the Fin GW store and get free shipping.
Considering that pretty much everything costs at around 30€+ you can come to your own conclusions.

Will do Australia just for fun.
Says shipping cost is 27,50 so the total cost would be 84£ for a battleforce which is roughly 134 Australian dollars.

I guess you could use the ship to local store for free shipping, not sure if you could pay the UK price and go to your local shop and pick it up though.
We dont have a gw here so I wouldn't be able to try it.

Anyways, I suggest you use maelstrom or any other uk based webstore, they will always have the cheapest price for out of the box stuff unless you get lucky on ebay.

/End Rant

On another note I'm placing my orders for a Furiso and a Stormraven right now.
Should I skip the Furioso? Will there be a new dread kit for the GKs since the Furiso is obviously lacking any GK heraldry.


----------



## MadCowCrazy




----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Will there be a new dread kit for the GKs since the Furiso is obviously lacking any GK heraldry.


Supposedly the PAGK, TAGK, and the MC walker are all getting plastic kits; would GW release two fairly big kits at the same time that have somewhat "similar" roles? I personally wouldn't count on it. At least it would make investments in Forge World pieces more interesting


----------



## IanC

MadCowCrazy said:


> YouTube - Blackbox opening with the Stormraven and Dreadnought from the Blood Angels


That guys voice is annoying. But what is that I see? Inquisition symbols, this time from the other side? Yay!


----------



## boreas

Looking at the nails, listening at the voice, I'm not sure it's a guy, mind you!


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Has anyone got an confirmation if the doors are either landraider or rhino size? 
It looks like they are, but I would like to be sure before I go ahead and buy FW ones.......


----------



## IanC

boreas said:


> Looking at the nails, listening at the voice, I'm not sure it's a guy, mind you!


Well if it is a woman, its still an annoying voice! :laugh:




OrdoMalleus said:


> Has anyone got an confirmation if the doors are either landraider or rhino size?
> It looks like they are, but I would like to be sure before I go ahead and buy FW ones.......


They look like Land Raider doors.

Which give me a wicked idea for a Chaos Storm Raven :victory:


----------



## Irbian

IanC said:


> That guys voice is annoying. But what is that I see? Inquisition symbols, this time from the other side? Yay!


I noted exactly what you did. :laugh:

Im intrigued in the inquisition/GK symbol. Because is not a GK symbol. Is a inquisition/GK symbol!

About the voice, is... weird...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> I noted exactly what you did. :laugh:
> 
> Im intrigued in the inquisition/GK symbol. Because is not a GK symbol. Is a inquisition/GK symbol!
> 
> About the voice, is... weird...


Exactly why I posted the video.

The person doing the unboxing is indeed a girl, Alexandra has a youtube channel where she has painting tutorials and she advocates getting more girls into this hobby.
So you boys just shut up and let her reel in some better fish, there has to be some rotten ones in the basket before you get the nicer stuff 

Anyways, here is her youtube page


----------



## equitypetey

Alexandra is not a girl she is a boy in a skirt


----------



## Dagmire

Speeking to a staffer today who hinted at the GK having the most powerful IC in the game to date.
Also hinted that it might be Garro, said he knew it was poseble with his sword
I know we should take this with a does of salts but its worth knowing.
D


----------



## Winterous

Dagmire said:


> Speeking to a staffer today who hinted at the GK having the most powerful IC in the game to date.


Well, let's be honest, it makes perfect fucking sense for them to have it, of all armies.
I would expect something on par with Abaddon in terms of fighting ability and toughness (perhaps more tough), but also a super-Psyker, and a top-notch commander.
So basically, Calgar, Eldrad, and Abaddon rolled into a big ball of awesome.


----------



## Azezel

Garro can't still be around. He'd be older than Bjorn, who is the oldest Marine in the Imperium and he'd be ten times older than Dante, the oldest non-dreadnougt Marine.

I realise that canon can change, but that's a little too hard to believe.


Besides which, that would explicitly show that GK have Mortarion's geneseed, and a lot of people like not knowing the GKs geneseed, or like believing that it came from the big E directly.

I could however, beleive that Brother Captain Stern took a level in badass, and well deserved.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

I had also heard that Brother Captain Stern was a Badass in the New GK codex.
Statlines eqivalent to Abbadon/mephiston, but with a 3++ SS and a rumour that his NFW still has the ability to insta-kill models even with the eternal warrior special rule.
At the time I took it with a massive pinch of salt, but I am begining to hear more and more murmourings.......

I also heard the character fromt the inside of the current CH (Brother captain Pelega from "halted the godjera incursion"fame) is head of a company of terminators (like the aurellians company that deployed to armageddon to fight angron) and enables termies to be taken as troops......Take as you will its a rumour


----------



## Vhalyar

OrdoMalleus said:


> I had also heard that Brother Captain Stern was a Badass in the New GK codex.
> Statlines eqivalent to Abbadon/mephiston, but with a 3++ SS and a rumour that his NFW still has the ability to insta-kill models even with the eternal warrior special rule.
> At the time I took it with a massive pinch of salt, but I am begining to hear more and more murmourings.......


No, the person who posted those Stern rumours, amongst many others, admitted a week later that it was made up bullshit.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Vhalyar said:


> No, the person who posted those Stern rumours, amongst many others, admitted a week later that it was made up bullshit.


That was from my friendly neighbourhood blackshirt rather than an online rumour......

Still it does need a lot of salt but its not completely unfeasible, although I will admit it does seem a bit wishlisty.....

As to the BC Pelega rumour, quite a few rumours suggest that termies can be taken as troops so with a special character so why not BC pelega?


----------



## Dagmire

Azezel said:


> Garro can't still be around. He'd be older than Bjorn, who is the oldest Marine in the Imperium and he'd be ten times older than Dante, the oldest non-dreadnougt Marine.
> 
> I realise that canon can change, but that's a little too hard to believe.
> 
> 
> Besides which, that would explicitly show that GK have Mortarion's geneseed, and a lot of people like not knowing the GKs geneseed, or like believing that it came from the big E directly.
> 
> I could however, beleive that Brother Captain Stern took a level in badass, and well deserved.


Garro recruited psykers from all over the Sm chapters. No one is using the death guard as a primach.

I know that its a streach but abbadon and fabius bile are still around even though warp time doesnt age them as much.....


----------



## Bindi Baji

OrdoMalleus said:


> That was from my friendly neighbourhood blackshirt rather than an online rumour......


You will find it was just a case of the blackshirt getting it via the net, one way or another


----------



## Vhalyar

First look at the new Grey Knight paint scheme? Indeed.


----------



## fynn

is it me, or does it look like psy-cannons on the turret????


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Nice find! +Rep

Its looks a lot darker grey than the current GK colour scehme (ie. more boltgun than mithril silver), so I if the rest of the studio army will be the same or if its just the vehicles?


----------



## OrdoMalleus

fynn said:


> is it me, or does it look like psy-cannons on the turret????


I think they are plasma cannons


----------



## Vhalyar

Plasma cannons, the SR doesn't have any psycannons on the sprues. Easy to spot with the blue glow.


----------



## Jereko

That picture does make it look very front heavy. I am just imagining a few Terminators sitting in it as the front end scrapes along the ground :laugh:.


----------



## Irbian

Its not you, I thinked too that they were psycannons. But no, they are plasma


----------



## coke123

I imagine it'll be an easy conversion to put psycannons there once plastic ones come out, though.


----------



## Vhalyar

Jereko said:


> That picture does make it look very front heavy. I am just imagining a few Terminators sitting in it as the front end scrapes along the ground :laugh:.


It's a drop pod that can drag itself across the battlefield.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

coke123 said:


> I imagine it'll be an easy conversion to put psycannons there once plastic ones come out, though.


I think it was stick monkey that said stormravens are FA: I suspect there will of course be options to swap the AC for psycannons, and you can most likely upgrade the heavy bolters to psycannons.

However, I am wondering if the new codex will see the introduction of any new GK weapons only other than incinerators and psycannons?

Maybe a blast template? *looks hopefull*


----------



## Mathai

Vhalyar said:


> First look at the new Grey Knight paint scheme? Indeed.


I gotta say, that is the first 'official' image of this thing that I have liked. ALot of the unofficial pics of it have looked pretty good, but whoever the people they pay to take pictures are for Games Workshop really dropped the ball in my opinion with the Storm Raven. I can respect the aesthetics they went for with the model itself, but unfortunately the way it is designed leads to a few very unflattering angles in static images I think.


----------



## GrizBe

If that is the new official paint scheme for GK's, I like it. Its much more in keeping with both the name, and their fluff that they leave their power armour unpainted, and that ceramite its a dull silver-grey colour.


----------



## Vhalyar

It just occured to me that Grey Knights will have the most fluffy Stormravens. The combined psychic might of the pilot, turret gunner and passengers should be enough to keep the thing airborne.


----------



## Azezel

Vhalyar said:


> The combined psychic might of the pilot, turret gunner and passengers should be enough to keep the thing airborne.


Au contraire, it's simply so ghastly that the ground repels it.


----------



## OpTi

actualy played vs a Ba player with a stormraven full of death company and took it out with my first shot.

it looks quite ok when you get to see it in the plastic but i still wouldn't take one due to how easy it is to destroy.


----------



## GrizBe

By that value and assesment though, you could say you'd not take a rhino, or a land speeder, or even a land raider given their armour values.


----------



## coke123

Rhinos and Land Speeders don't cost 200pts. Also, I'm not really understanding your argument with the Land Raider.

Although personally I'm going to wait for the codex before I make any judgements on the Storm Raven. It might cost less, or be able to take upgrades to improve survivability.


----------



## GrizBe

My point was that any other space marine vehicle is just as easily destroyable as the storm raven given their armour values. Its all down to the luck of the dice, and you can't judge the effectiveness of anything just because you got lucky against it once.


----------



## Irbian

Im the only one who thinks that the wing will break at the union point with the motor? I mean, it isnt straight! It wont endure! OMG WE ARE C-C-C-Crashing!


----------



## boreas

Like many such things, SR are better in multiples. An army with a single rhino won't keep it more than 2 turns. An army with 4 rhinos will at least get one across the field. A single LR will draw every melta or high-strength weapon an die quickly. Two LRs will "share" the incoming fire. The same could be said about Speeders, Drop-pods, etc...

Also, because of it's high mobility, SR are better kept in reserve. Coming out 18-24" (it's a fast skimmer, right?) it get a 4+ cover save AND it's naturally immune to the melta rule. So a melta weapon has 1/6th chance of glancing or penetrating if fired by a Meq. Same for an Autocannon fired by a Geq. 

Of course, the gamble here (and that's the reason two SR in reserve are good but not brokenly so) it that your army can come out piece by piece and get shot down. Hopefully, an Inquisitor might have access to a "+1 to reserve rolls" guy in his retinue. This way, your 2 SR full of GKs will arrive really early while you callidus gets to assault the best anti-tank squad early.

Anyways, I've got two birds coming my way and that GK scheme got me really hyped! I probably won't go the metallic way, though. I've a mind to get myself an airbrush and go for a flat grey and red scheme in the forgeworld Imperial Navy style...

Phil


----------



## coke123

Personally, I'll probably go with Storm Ravens, since my main opponent is using Dark Eldar. A million lances don't care if you're armour 14 or armour 12. You'd need at least two, though, and probably a couple of rhinos for saturation. Not too mention that the standard arms on the storm raven are quite capable of nuking a rifleman/predator/russ/insert other nasty armour so it should do fine... so long as you take enough of them.

By the way, forgot to mention, but I got a look at the storm raven sprue the other day (my GW's black box came in). Interesting this was, it looked like the turret on top was about the same size as a Razorback turret (just eyeballing it), so potential for a swap of turret if you don't like the current one.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

coke123 said:


> Interesting this was, it looked like the turret on top was about the same size as a Razorback turret (just eyeballing it), so potential for a swap of turret if you don't like the current one.


Good Good! I was hoping it was, which should mean that the FW Razorback Psycannon turret should fit without any hassle.


I have taken a definite dislike to the colour scheme as it doesnt fit my "Knights in highly polished baroque armour" mental image of the fluff. I know that the armour is unpainted to represent purity etc. but most descriptions of GK describe their armour as highly polished and ornate, whereas the SR pictured just looks too darks and gun-metally.

Still, Rule of Multiples! At least 2 SR it is then.........


----------



## boreas

Some rumors had the GW studio painting the GK in a "darker" way in the next codex... I think "dismal" was the word used. Here's the quote:


> Originally Posted by heartbitt View Post
> Yesterday I got "officially" noted, by a very reliable source, GK ranges are FULLY done, in facy they're fully done sometime ago, as the DE, the minis are superb, most on platic, like lately, and the quality is as "worse" as like DE. SH, was really the tesbed with the new injection systems (the first test was AoBR, but they not push to hard the system), the Eavy Metal team has finished the search for chromatic pallete, thistime the GK are not more shinny silver, the definition used on the studio is now they've more "dismal" look, Stormraven is in, as well, a very special character. GW almost got the date release.


I don't know the guy, Valhyar has pulled this from BOLS in November.


----------



## Irbian

Actually if I buy one I probably heavy converted. Im not convinced on the turret on top (so the weapons there Ill put them below the wings)

As I said before I dont see that wings. I would put them in more compact way.

And about the colour, my scratchbuild thunderbolt is black and red so... its possible to take the same way


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> Some rumors had the GW studio painting the GK in a "darker" way in the next codex... I think "dismal" was the word used. Here's the quote:
> I don't know the guy, Valhyar has pulled this from BOLS in November.


I had totally forgotten about that, thanks for bringing it up 
Dismal does describe pretty well this new color scheme.

For comparison's sake:









Prime and proper vs considerably darker and worn.


----------



## boreas

Yeah, that's I going for anyways... I've discovered the wonderful world of weathering through Imperial Armour Masterclass. I'm waiting for some pigments to complete the look. I know that, technically, GK are going in fresh and primed, their armors buffed and polished. Yet, I love the look of "meaner" GKs. A typical WH40k game represents anywhere near 6-30 minutes of combat, I figure. Yet, the GK might have been in the field for a few hours, quite enough to test the armor a lot, especially if you're wading through through daemons and CSM, getting shot at by renegade guards...

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> I had totally forgotten about that, thanks for bringing it up
> Dismal does describe pretty well this new color scheme.
> 
> For comparison's sake:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prime and proper vs considerably darker and worn.


So from that to this?


----------



## GrizBe

I know thats just a quick photoshop with the brightness, but I really do think that they look better with the darker, grimmer paint scheme.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> I know thats just a quick photoshop with the brightness, but I really do think that they look better with the darker, grimmer paint scheme.


Actually it's not the brightness I changed because that didn't look good. I changed the colour hues and colour levels.


----------



## boreas

The darker ones are a lot closer to mine (posted on page 234 of this thread). 

Phil


----------



## Tuatara

coke123 said:


> By the way, forgot to mention, but I got a look at the storm raven sprue the other day (my GW's black box came in). Interesting this was, it looked like the turret on top was about the same size as a Razorback turret (just eyeballing it), so potential for a swap of turret if you don't like the current one.


I went into my local yesterday and they were building it. I asked if a razorback Lascannon would fit and they went and grabbed one to find out. Turns out the Razorback mount is a fraction larger and won't fit in without a little bit of adjustment. Only a little, mind, a bit of filing with a round file should see it fit easily.

Also, I'm also too ashamed to admit it, but I preordered one at the same time. I couldn't help myself.


----------



## boreas

Tuatara said:


> Also, I'm also too ashamed to admit it, but I preordered one at the same time. I couldn't help myself.


No shame, pal! When was the last time you bought some plasti-crack for your GKs?

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> No shame, pal! When was the last time you bought some plasti-crack for your GKs?
> 
> Phil


Come to think of it, isn't this the first ever plastic model for the Grey Knights? I mean a model specific to them? LR and Rhinos dont count since there is no GK specific LR or Rhino from GW.


----------



## boreas

Well, as this kit is BA/GK (and rumored to be pillaged by other marines), it's not technically speaking only for us... But WE gave a FEW to the BA... ALL YOUR STORMRAVEN ARE BELONG TO US !!!!ONE!111!

Ah... hum... err, yeah *brushes-off the foaming spittle*

Phil


----------



## coke123

Tuatara said:


> I went into my local yesterday and they were building it. I asked if a razorback Lascannon would fit and they went and grabbed one to find out. Turns out the Razorback mount is a fraction larger and won't fit in without a little bit of adjustment. Only a little, mind, a bit of filing with a round file should see it fit easily.


That is simply a matter of removing mold lines. Once you do that, it's snug as a bug in a rug.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> Well, as this kit is BA/GK (and rumored to be pillaged by other marines), it's not technically speaking only for us... But WE gave a FEW to the BA... ALL YOUR STORMRAVEN ARE BELONG TO US !!!!ONE!111!
> 
> Ah... hum... err, yeah *brushes-off the foaming spittle*
> 
> Phil


True, I considered this but since it's the ONLY plastic model from GW with ANY plastic GK heraldry in it I came to the conclusion that it's the first plastic kit for the GK, only reason being the 4 GK/Inquisitor bits.
I hope they do like with the chaos Rhino, LR etc that they make a new GK sprue for us GK players to customize things with. They should have this for every race imo, not just the select few "popular" armies.



coke123 said:


> That is simply a matter of removing mold lines. Once you do that, it's snug as a bug in a rug.


Hmm? You mean squashed and drying stuck to the fabric leaving a small brown mark once you have managed to remove it?
Reminds me a bit about the Tunderfire cannon, the platform you place it on is basically a metal version of the Razorback top piece you place the weapon on. My thunderfire cannon only fit into it in certain directions because it was oval in shape and not round, I had to do allot of cutting before I got bored and simply grabbed some pliers, held the TFC as hard as I dared, pushed it into the hole and twisted it forcing the rhino piece to bend straight. I did damage the model a bit (you see the teeth marks from the pliers) but I can now rotate the TFC 
Violence solves everything :crazy:


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm? You mean squashed and drying stuck to the fabric leaving a small brown mark once you have managed to remove it?


Come again?


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Come again?


Snug as a bug in a rug.

Squished, basically.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm hoping they make a GK upgrade sprue.... Afterall, really all you need, taking the rumours and what we know into consideration, is one that has various psycannon and possibly incinerator parts to fit the rhino, razorback and other vehicles, and then some GK / =I= icons, and you can then buy that and the normal kit and your done.

If given GK's now have access to more normal SM vehicles, it'd make sense to do it that way, rather then having to rebox stuff with added GK bits.


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Snug as a bug in a rug.
> 
> Squished, basically.


Right. How did I miss that? I should really start getting to bed earlier. It'd probably make comprehending posts in the morning easier...


----------



## boreas

coke123 said:


> Right. How did I miss that? I should really start getting to bed earlier. It'd probably make comprehending posts in the morning easier...


No, it's ok... It's one of those Swedish expression you have to assemble at home 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> No, it's ok... It's one of those Swedish expression you have to assemble at home
> 
> Phil


----------



## TheKingElessar

boreas said:


> Yeah, that's I going for anyways... I've discovered the wonderful world of weathering through Imperial Armour Masterclass. I'm waiting for some pigments to complete the look. I know that, technically, GK are going in fresh and primed, their armors buffed and polished. Yet, I love the look of "meaner" GKs. A typical WH40k game represents anywhere near 6-30 minutes of combat, I figure. Yet, the GK might have been in the field for a few hours, quite enough to test the armor a lot, especially if you're wading through through daemons and CSM, getting shot at by renegade guards...
> 
> Phil


More like between 30 seconds and 6 minutes!:wink:


----------



## inigo montoya

GrizBe said:


> My point was that any other space marine vehicle is just as easily destroyable as the storm raven given their armour values. Its all down to the luck of the dice, and you can't judge the effectiveness of anything just because you got lucky against it once.


umm it is statistics, friend. If you honestly believe there is a statistically equal chance to destroy a land raider and storm raven, then I hope to meet you in the finals at a major.

Do the math, the storm raven is far more likelt to fall than a land raider. They are absolutely overcosted for what they bring to the table.

I am hoping the GK get the rumored ability to raise the av.


----------



## Irbian

http://22ndvrrr.blogspot.com/2011/01/raptors-test-stormraven-gunship.html

Seems better without the top turret.


----------



## equitypetey

bugger me without all the nonsense up on the top could almost think it looks a bit sexy, soooooooooo much better without the air intake, wonder how a razor back turret will change the look?


----------



## boreas

inigo montoya said:


> umm it is statistics, friend. If you honestly believe there is a statistically equal chance to destroy a land raider and storm raven, then I hope to meet you in the finals at a major.
> 
> Do the math, the storm raven is far more likelt to fall than a land raider. They are absolutely overcosted for what they bring to the table.
> 
> I am hoping the GK get the rumored ability to raise the av.


It's really situational. Outside melta range, the LR is much more resistant. But inside melta range (where you want assault vehicle, really), the SR is just a good. Let's face it, most armies don't have a ton of St 7, apart from foot-IG spamming autocannons. Now, in melta range, you get an average of 15 to penetration roll (St 8+ 2 dice). Against a LR, that's a good chance to penetrate (around 60% if you hit). But against the SR, if you hit in melta range you only get 1 d6. So you only get 33% chance of penetration. Add to this that a good player will keep moving flat out and get a cover save (and will have PotMS shooting the most situational weapon, usually the TL-multi-melta).

Add to this that a SR costs a bit less (50 pts per model, usually taken in pair, add up to a potentially very useful 100pts). They have the capacity for a major alpha strike. If you get first turn, deploy them on the table, move 6" and shoot 4 St8 Ap1 missiles and a TL-Multi-melta and a TL-Lascannon at that annoying tank squadron or even that LR (as 3-4 hit give you a good chance of rolling a 6 and damaging that LR with only -1 on the damage table).

Now, the SR is NOT the end-all, always-take-it vehicle. But it's certainly just as good an option as the LR in a melta-spam environment. 

Phil


----------



## GrizBe

@boras: Thanks for qualifying my point there. As said, an LR can just as easily be destroyed, but that doesn't make it useless now does it?

And actually... without that vent, it does look alot better and more 'mini-thunderhawkish'. I also think that with some minor addjustments to make it a little more rounded, the origional turret would fit without that vent behind it.... That or if you droped the vent to a more rounded one that just sat behind the turret, rather then over it... think some photoshoppings in order if I get bored enough... lol


----------



## fynn

with the right dice rolls you can take out a LR just as easily as rhino, on saturday, had a game against marinus calgar (from our forums) and on turn 1 i took out his LRC with one shot from a oblit multi melta, and in other games, ive lost my LR to a las cannon shot in the first turn, so while they have a higher AV than anything else, you can still kill em pretty quickly (unless your silly enought o field sod all AT weapons)


----------



## Purge the Heretic

So one day, one time, you were popping AV 14 like soap bubbles.

Annecdotes are what they are:

Final round of the local 'ard boys tourney last year I shot what must have been 40 melta/multimelta shots (some of them twin linked on immolaters), before I was able to blow up either of my opponents battle wagons.
On or about turn 5. Some of those were side shots. Needless to say the mega nobs inside then rolled me, as I hadn't been able to stop them at range.
The odds average out.

Some days your Storm Raven will live forever, on others it will crash and burn first turn.


----------



## Dynamike

Ah yes, these famous(or infamous) dice! Love them or hate them, they just don't care.

Well.. except mine, they're special. They love me too.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I should go have my dice blessed by the pope or something...then again that would only allow me to abuse kids in 40k...


----------



## OrdoMalleus

MadCowCrazy said:


> I should go have my dice blessed by the pope or something...then again that would only allow me to abuse kids in 40k...



Ooohhhhh......Contreversial...............


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> I should go have my dice blessed by the pope or something...then again that would only allow me to abuse kids in 40k...


Don't go to the pope then. Try one of those evangelical ministers in the deep south. Then at least it will be grown men :laugh: They can at least give consent.




Purge the heretic said:


> Final round of the local 'ard boys tourney last year I shot what must have been 40 melta/multimelta shots (some of them twin linked on immolaters), before I was able to blow up either of my opponents battle wagons.
> On or about turn 5. Some of those were side shots. Needless to say the mega nobs inside then rolled me, as I hadn't been able to stop them at range.
> The odds average out.


I certainly hope so. Last tournament I had three rounds. Lost my LR in round two in the first game (after "can't move or shoot " in round one) and had it destroyed in the first round of the next two games. With that behind me, the next tournament should be awesome.:yahoo:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Tuatara said:


> Don't go to the pope then. Try one of those evangelical ministers in the deep south. Then at least it will be grown men :laugh: They can at least give consent.


Nah, gonna have them blessed by a priest/saint/minister/whatever the people who are into Scientology calls themselves. Then maybe I could transfer the sad spirits that cling to my body to those of my opponents to jinx their game. Hopefully allowing me to descend onto the space ship behind the moon once I die.

I actually had a conversation with a priest about 40k a few years back, basically I was questioning him on faith in general. I asked where the soul is located, he said in the heart of man and I asked if people with artificial hearts/pacemakers had no soul then. He quickly changed his mind to that the soul is in the brain.
I was making fun of him since I dont believe in religion at all but it trailed off into a pretty interesting conversation. Basically when do you stop being human? My arguments were that in the future were will most definitely be some kind of artificial blood that works allot better than the natural stuff, small nanomachines and what not helping your body out.
Can a techpriest even be classified as human? Dont they exchange most of their organs and body for robotic parts?
Can an astartes space marine be classified as human?

So while we wait for the first GK reveals to come out discuss


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> Nah, gonna have them blessed by a priest/saint/minister/whatever the people who are into Scientology calls themselves. Then maybe I could transfer the sad spirits that cling to my body to those of my opponents to jinx their game. Hopefully allowing me to descend onto the space ship behind the moon once I die.
> 
> I actually had a conversation with a priest about 40k a few years back, basically I was questioning him on faith in general. I asked where the soul is located, he said in the heart of man and I asked if people with artificial hearts/pacemakers had no soul then. He quickly changed his mind to that the soul is in the brain.
> I was making fun of him since I dont believe in religion at all but it trailed off into a pretty interesting conversation. Basically when do you stop being human? My arguments were that in the future were will most definitely be some kind of artificial blood that works allot better than the natural stuff, small nanomachines and what not helping your body out.
> Can a techpriest even be classified as human? Dont they exchange most of their organs and body for robotic parts?
> Can an astartes space marine be classified as human?
> 
> So while we wait for the first GK reveals to come out discuss


*Cracks his knuckles* Alrighty then. As a Biomedical Engineering student, I accept your challenge!

Firstly, on the soul, assuming it does exist, why do we assume that it is located in a specific centre? It is the spiritual representation of our body as a whole- surely it would be present in every one of our cells?

I'm going to point out that the definition of death is cardiac arrest- a stopped heart, for those of you playing at home. I was personally suprised that this had nothing to do with brain function, but when one thinks about it for a minute, this makes sense. This raises a couple of interesting questions- first and formost being "do people with artificial hearts count as alive?" Fortunately this hasn't been a problem until recently, as up until now, there has never been a total heart replacement, only augmentations to a diseased heart, but in late 2009 (early 2010? the date escapes me) the world's first total heart replacement was performed (in Australia, IIRC). So here's my point- a human is first and foremost, a living creature, no? Once someone dies, do you not refer to them in the past tense (i.e. He was a person)? So to me, at least, a human must be defined as alive.

By our current definition of death, a techpriest must be dead. If we accept that a person is alive, then a techpriest (or MotF for that matter) with an artificial heart cannot be a person. Obviously, this is countered by the fact that our definitions are skewed by the what is possible at the time, but still, it's an interesting notion.

Now for Astartes. I think that we can all assume that they have functioning hearts, so by current technical definitions, they are alive. The trouble is, that if life is our only definition of humanity, then ferrets, hagfish and algal blooms must also be human, which clearly they are not- so we must add another condition. At this point we start talking about anatomy- A human should have a roughly human anatomy. I include the word 'roughly' so that people with varying abnormalities are included. Astartes have multiple hearts, lungs, brains, black carapace, the Betcher's Gland, and a slew of other freaky shit. Far removed from humanity. Not to mention that they are described by GW as 'superhuman', which means 'above human' and therefore by definition cannot be considered human. However, someone with a single artificial liver still has a roughly human anatomy, and hence would be considered human. Also by this definition, a techpriest who only replaces organs (but doesn't add anything new) can be considered human, assuming they have a heart, and pass condition one.

So that's my viewpoint. Go ahead. I'm assuming there will be disagreement. 

Oh, and on a sidenote- people are currently working on artificial blood. At least according to my last semester cardio professor. Although I've heard nothing of bionanobots.


----------



## GrizBe

Actually, I'll point out that the true definition of death these days, is brain death. Okay, so your heart can be stopped and you can not be breathing or have a pulse and be counted as having been dead, but truth death does not occur until their is no longer any activity within the brain. Someone who's heart has stopped can be revived, but if your brains been blown out, your screwed.

Now yes, I'll put the prevision on that, that their are plenty of people who've been shot in the head and survived, but thats because enough of the brain has remained intact to continue the maintainance of bodily functions. If the brain dies, the body dies, and that is true death.

Now, by that definiation, IF there is a soul, it would reside in the brain. Your brain holds your personality, your memories, it controls how your body responds to situations etc... Your brain is you. The rest of the body is in essence, just a shell to transport the brain around. With that, a techpreist would indeed have a soul, as they don't replace the brain. Okay, they may augment it, but in essence, what makes the tech preist himself isn't changed.

A servitor though, from my understanding of them, they get mindwiped... everything that makes them who they were is errased, and they are left as just a autonomous shell. They would be souless as there is nothing left of them that makes them what they once were. 

Now, that does bring on the debate of an artificial soul. If what we are is our memories and our personality and our behaviour, and that makes our soul... Then would not a robot, or a machine, thats been programmed to behave a certain way, and react a certain way have a soul too? I'd say no, as its been programmed. It reacts that way because its been told too... However, if it was programmed to evolved beyond its programming, to learn by itself and given the option to choose how it reacts to a situation rather then a predefined 'you'll do this when this happens'... That complicates things. Take a human baby, its a lifetime of experiences and choices and enviroment that programs that person into who'll they'll become, and they have a soul. Build a machine to do the same, can we say that machine is souless if it has the same life and experiences as a human?

Now.. Astartes, even they don't class themselves as humans anymore. They are 'enhanced humans'. They all started out as normal humans, its their implants that turn them into something more. I'd say they still have a human soul though, as thats where they came from and thats what made them. Its their training that changes them.


----------



## Winterous

Interesting conversation, yay!

First of all, let's talk about what the 'soul' is in the 40k universe.
A soul is basically a reflection of a living being into the Warp, it's a little pin on the map saying "You are here.".
Any creature with any degree of psychic potential (psychic meaning, in 40k, having a link to the Warp) has a soul, since a soul is a presence in the Warp.
A soul is, basically, a current in the flows of the Warp caused by the presence of a connection between Real and Warp space; a soul is, for all intents and purposes, the present ability to manipulate the Warp.
So in this way, all creatures with a soul are Psykers, to a very limited extent; an actual Psyker is just an abnormally strong one, and so their soul shines like a beacon through the Warp.

So from this we can logically conclude that any creature without ANY psychic potential does not have a soul.
They are still alive, a living being, but they do not have a soul in any way shape or form.
Pariahs don't have a soul, they are the antithesis of a soul, their lack of a soul causes sensory confusion in creatures with a soul because they see a person, but they cannot sense their soul; this is why Pariahs are mentally distressing to be around, they seem unnatural.

Note that Tau do indeed have a soul, but it's a very weak presence in the Warp; they have psychic potential, but it is so minimal that they are never likely to have a Psyker of any recognisable power.


Now, with our definition established, we need to work out what links the soul to the body.
This is where fantasy comes into play, because there is no solid science which could explain such a mystical connection.
Neural activity? Just electrons passing between clusters of atoms.
The brain? Just a huge fucking bundle of power lines, as above.
Living cells? On the atomic scale, define what 'living' means. So no.
Consciousness? We don't even nearly understand what consciousness is, to even partially understand it is more than likely completely beyond our potential as a species.

Consciousness, that is the only thing which works, the only thing which cannot currently be explained, THAT is where the soul anchors itself to reality.
As long as the potential for consciousness exists in a mass, a soul can exist (because otherwise you wouldn't have a soul while you're asleep).
Disconnection from the Warp prevents the existence of a soul, for obvious reasons.


Now then, we've established that consciousness is the centre that houses the soul!
Where is consciousness housed? The brain is the best bet, but we can't know for sure.

How do you define a brain anyway? A cluster of neurons? Someone made a robot that functions using brain cells taken from a rat, does that count as a brain?
What about a single neuron? It can't DO anything, but could it be a brain?
If you cut a brain in half, are both halves of the brain the same person? Different people? Dead obviously, but still a person.
The brain is essentially a biological computer, a series of switches saying 0 or 1 (neurons can probably have more than 2 outputs though); does this make a computer a brain? It functions essentially the same, just in a less complex way.

The heart?
The heart is a muscle, it pumps fluid, so no.

The whole body? Possible, but then amputated limbs have consciousness, even if they die shortly after.
If you attach a limb that came from one person, to another person, does that change their consciousness? No, it does not.
This is a no, not the whole body.

So I think we need to be a bit imaginative here and forget that thought is simply electrical signals modified by biochemistry, and say that consciousness is housed in the mind; not the brain, the brain is the centre of thought, but the mind is the thought itself.
Consciousness is the process of thought, thought IS consciousness.
Computers are conscious; barely, but they are.
A computer doesn't have feelings, it can think, take in information and output other information, but it cannot feel; it is not self-aware either, like most animals.
A computer is conscious, but in a different way to living creatures, until they become more advanced.

So is destroying a computer immoral?
Morality is subjective, it's only immoral to kill a human because we can sympathise with them.
So, the degree to which we sympathise with another conscious entity is what defines our view of its moral implications. Don't worry, busting your computer up isn't hurting anything.
The greater the degree of information processing that an entity is capable of defines how strong a consciousness it has; humans have, I think, the greatest mental capacity of all animals on Earth, this means we are more significant than any other animal.
Dolphins are extremely intelligent, enough to possess self-awareness, so are some types of magpie, and elephants are too.
The greater the consciousness, the more value it has, and the more we can sympathise with it.

An artificial intelligence is a computer which has comparable processing power to a living organism, it is conscious, it is practically alive.


So, the brain is where the consciousness exists, and our consciousness is one of the main things that defines us as a human being.
The other things are...

Anatomy: We and dolphins are not the same thing because we are physically different, even though our mental capacity is not dissimilar.

Personality: A body without personality cannot truly be considered human; it possess consciousness since it has a brain, it processes information even though it does not act upon it (a personality is, really, what a mind DOES, what actions it decides to take), but as said, it does not act upon stimuli, it's basically a corpse that has the potential to think. This is the reason that cloning human bodies to use for testing purposes is not bad, because they aren't HUMAN, they're just flesh; it's like saying busting a computer is evil.

The perception of other beings: Since the universe isn't alive, there are no true definitions; morality is a human invention, so is time, so is maths (it's a way of working things out, not something that actually exists); we can be considered not human unless we are recognised as human by others.


So, from those factors we can now work out when we stop being 'human'.

When the brain is removed or killed (and the body kept alive), a body is no longer human, as consciousness is the primary contributor to the definition.

When a person is sufficiently deformed or modified, they cease being human. Oh they're a living being, we can sympathise with them, but they aren't *truly* human if they've been squashed flat on the road.
Just the same, changing the body also affects this, a man with a robotic arm is less human than human (isn't that a song?) because his body has been changed; a man with a bionic heart is less human; but these are both minimal changes, they serve the same function.
Adding organs, removing organs, THOSE are significant changes; but if a human being is born with more or less organs, or significantly changed organs, that is a 'natural' formation of a human body, they are still just as much a human as a normal one.
But adding organs, a third arm, an extra heart, biological or not, this reduces an entity's classification as human.

The loss of personality is a loss of humanity; a brain that functions perfectly, but cannot interface with the outside world is a significant reduction in the validity of a human classification.
A person in a coma who is responsive to external stimuli (meaning their brain is still functioning with their senses) is a personality, because they are interfacing with the world; but once they stop reacting to stimuli, and the body stops functioning properly by itself, the entity is less of a human.
A person who is alive only because of life support and having waste pushed through their body is not truly a human; but a person whose life is assisted by life support, but not wholly kept alive by it, can still be considered human, very much so.

If a person is recognised by many as a human being, they can be thought of as one (as evidenced by the fact that people DO).
Just the same, if a person is universally denounced as a human being, they are not.
The thoughts of other humans is an essential part of the normal thought process, we don't really know that what we perceive is real, but other people telling us that it is greatly reinforces the thought in our mind.


Obviously some of these factors can be taken out of context to mean that a frog, for example, is human; but that's not what I mean, I mean that if something is considered human, the presence of consciousness and personality serves as evidence in support of this consideration, but is not consideration in and of itself.


When these factors are mixed and matched, you have a much greater change in the humanity of a person.
If you are without personality, and also of significantly changed anatomy, then you pretty much cannot be considered human. But if people still recognise and accept you as human, then you are, but in a reduced way to the 'norm'.


So, question answered


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think the way we perceive each other is also a great factor on what we consider human.
I can give many examples of this.

Lets say you have worked for 10 years with a college called Bob, one day you find out he is actually a machine with a human skin strapped on top of. Does he seize to be human to you the moment you find this out?

How about if Bob is a human, you two get in a horrible car accident. You escape with minor wounds but Bob loses most of his body, making it so only his brain could be salvaged. So the doctors provide a new artificial body (100% robotic or a 100% clone of him, pick one or consider both) for him. Has he stopped being human because he has lost his original body and replaced it with a metallic one or a copy of his old body?

You and Bob are driving down the road when you suddenly get abducted by aliens.
They transfer your mind into Bobs body and his into yours, have both of you stopped being human?

Same as above but the aliens rips off Bob skin and replaces it with one of the aliens own skin. Bob looks the same as before but his skin colour is now grey, is he no longer human?

On the subject of a soul, is the soul a combination of thoughts or is it simply the knowledge of being self aware. In the Terminator movies a computer becomes self aware (is in Mass Effect and tons of other computer games and movie), is becoming self aware and fearing death what gives a person/machine a soul? Is it what defines humanity?

Im sure there are countless alien species out there in the universe with greater minds than us? Could they be considered human simply because they show or have the same thoughts and intelligence as us?

What if we found an old colony of humans on mars living underground to protect them from the climate above. Their history shows that Mars was once like earth but because of disasters/pollution left the planet for Earth. Disaster struck and they crashed into the planet, the survivors had to survive without technology and soon their heritage faded from memory. Would they be considered human? or a human sub species? Would we now be considered the abhumans?

We meet an alien race, our anatomy is identical except they have pointy ears. A human and space elf has a child together, how would that child be classified? Abomination? Hybrid? Lets say that child and for 100 generations after only "mate" with humans. At what generation could you stop considering them as abhumans? Never?

What if you are in an accident, you need blood but have a rare blood type. Your alien friend however has this blood type and you get blood from him, are you no longer human?

What if your brain is pretty much destroyed in an accident and it's not possible to regrow it, so your brain is connected to a cybernetic bio brain, half machine, half bioengineered. You can now do everything you did before the accident, retain all your memories and have recovered 100%. Your brain however is not the same and never will be, are you no longer human?


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Wow...you all are going in deep.

For me, the realm of god is the atomic realm, matter to energy, energy to matter...

..when you are able to manipulate these things by mere thought and will then "miracles" are quite simple...
Water into wine? A few protons here, an electron there and voila. 

If we accept that god has or is a soul, then a soul has to be something more than just energy or matter, but rather a force or a will that can act upon energy and matter. Our soul's confinement in a physical mortal body limits it's sphere of influence to that body...and of course our soul's ability and understanding of the ways to manipulate matter and energy is dwarfed by gods even if we could access that potential.

As our soul can be contained within a physical body, its substance must be a form of energy, one we do not yet understand and cannot yet detect, and one that holds our conciousness... and depending on your beliefs, can hold the energy patterns of your memories of your life long after your brain and body have crumbled to dust.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lets say you have worked for 10 years with a college called Bob, one day you find out he is actually a machine with a human skin strapped on top of. Does he seize to be human to you the moment you find this out?
> 
> He was never truly human, but your perception changes this somewhat; he is considered partially human because of how others perceive him.
> 
> How about if Bob is a human, you two get in a horrible car accident. You escape with minor wounds but Bob loses most of his body, making it so only his brain could be salvaged. So the doctors provide a new artificial body (100% robotic or a 100% clone of him, pick one or consider both) for him. Has he stopped being human because he has lost his original body and replaced it with a metallic one or a copy of his old body?
> 
> No, because there are more important factors than anatomy. Personality, consciousness, and perception all remain the same (or similar at least).
> 
> You and Bob are driving down the road when you suddenly get abducted by aliens.
> They transfer your mind into Bobs body and his into yours, have both of you stopped being human?
> 
> No, because you both have human anatomy, consciousness, personality, and others still perceive you as human.
> 
> Same as above but the aliens rips off Bob skin and replaces it with one of the aliens own skin. Bob looks the same as before but his skin colour is now grey, is he no longer human?
> 
> His anatomy has changed marginally, but most of it is the same, and the other factors remain the same, except perception of others.
> 
> On the subject of a soul, is the soul a combination of thoughts or is it simply the knowledge of being self aware. In the Terminator movies a computer becomes self aware (is in Mass Effect and tons of other computer games and movie), is becoming self aware and fearing death what gives a person/machine a soul? Is it what defines humanity?
> 
> The presence of a 'soul' is not what defines humanity, as humans are not the only creatures with souls. Becoming sentient does not grant this hypothetical soul, but it enables the attachment required to have one.
> 
> Im sure there are countless alien species out there in the universe with greater minds than us? Could they be considered human simply because they show or have the same thoughts and intelligence as us?
> 
> To a degree, if other perceived them as human, then yes. Otherwise no, because intelligence does not mean humanity, dolphins are not humans because they are a different species, even though they have comparable intelligence.
> 
> What if we found an old colony of humans on mars living underground to protect them from the climate above. Their history shows that Mars was once like earth but because of disasters/pollution left the planet for Earth. Disaster struck and they crashed into the planet, the survivors had to survive without technology and soon their heritage faded from memory. Would they be considered human? or a human sub species? Would we now be considered the abhumans?
> 
> In that case, we would share a common ancestor; we would both be evolutions of the same species. We would not be abhumans, because what we consider human is what we ARE.
> They would be a cousin to humanity, but not truly human, unless they were adopted as such by our culture.
> 
> We meet an alien race, our anatomy is identical except they have pointy ears. A human and space elf has a child together, how would that child be classified? Abomination? Hybrid? Lets say that child and for 100 generations after only "mate" with humans. At what generation could you stop considering them as abhumans? Never?
> 
> Once again, a matter of perception. If we accept them as a close relative, then they fall under my definition of human.
> Why? Because they are effectively another race of humans, like Africans and English are different, except that they evolved completely differently, and just happened to end up the same.
> 
> What if you are in an accident, you need blood but have a rare blood type. Your alien friend however has this blood type and you get blood from him, are you no longer human?
> 
> A small part of your anatomy has been changed, but only that, the other factors remain the same.
> 
> What if your brain is pretty much destroyed in an accident and it's not possible to regrow it, so your brain is connected to a cybernetic bio brain, half machine, half bioengineered. You can now do everything you did before the accident, retain all your memories and have recovered 100%. Your brain however is not the same and never will be, are you no longer human?
> 
> Your consciousness and personality remain the same, but your anatomy and the perception of others have changed.
> Consciousness, personality and anatomy are the primary factors, so you end up more human than not human.


All of these questions were actually answered in my post


----------



## GrizBe

Oww... my head starting to hurt.... Someone hurry up with some GK' rumours before we disprove the existance of God and show we should all be worshipping a small fluffy guinea pig called Bob!


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> Oww... my head starting to hurt.... Someone hurry up with some GK' rumours before we disprove the existance of God and show we should all be worshipping a small fluffy guinea pig called Bob!


Who happens to be a robot, and was abducted by aliens one time


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Wow...you all are going in deep.
> 
> For me, the realm of god is the atomic realm, matter to energy, energy to matter...
> 
> ..when you are able to manipulate these things by mere thought and will then "miracles" are quite simple...
> Water into wine? A few protons here, an electron there and voila.
> 
> If we accept that god has or is a soul, then a soul has to be something more than just energy or matter, but rather a force or a will that can act upon energy and matter. Our soul's confinement in a physical mortal body limits it's sphere of influence to that body...and of course our soul's ability and understanding of the ways to manipulate matter and energy is dwarfed by gods even if we could access that potential.
> 
> As our soul can be contained within a physical body, its substance must be a form of energy, one we do not yet understand and cannot yet detect, and one that holds our conciousness... and depending on your beliefs, can hold the energy patterns of your memories of your life long after your brain and body have crumbled to dust.


If you go by this standard wouldn't that mean that blue guy in that movie with the owlguy, some girl, bastard guy with smiley icon and smart dude could be considered a god (Manhattan man or whatever he was called)? 
Does this mean we would be capable of creating our own gods?


How about this, we meet an alien race that is completely our opposite. Like Orks or Tau or those insects from the second Horus Heresy book, trough some weird sexual act a child is born. Another 100 generations of only mating with humans, when does it become human again?


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lets say you have worked for 10 years with a college called Bob, one day you find out he is actually a machine with a human skin strapped on top of. Does he seize to be human to you the moment you find this out?


as long as he's not a woman, who cares? 
(hides)


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## Grogbart

As far as the Universe is concerned there is Bob, Bill, Jane and Horse and they all act and look differently.
Bob sees Bill and Jane are looking and acting at least roughly the same as him. In his natural desire to categorise things (propably due to limeted data storage) he defines Bob, Bill and Jane as humans. Horse thinks everyone is eating and sleeping so everyone is a human. Jane thinks boys are supid and defines herself as sole human being. Does that make Bill human?

Basing a definition on the opinion of a majority of a flock of individuals, with the defenition ruling who is in Flock or not! Very unstable a definition, i think.


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## Irbian

Another 100 generations of only mating with humans, when does it become human again?

- When is used as D&D PC. I mean, a sorcerer has dragon blood from a dragon anscestor so...

....


Yeah, we need GK rumours


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Weeeeeeeellll, Gk will get a 2+ invu save and their NFW get +1S for each 500pts in ur army list :grin:


----------



## Mathai

MadCowCrazy said:


> If you go by this standard wouldn't that mean that blue guy in that movie with the owlguy, some girl, bastard guy with smiley icon and smart dude could be considered a god (Manhattan man or whatever he was called)?


 
The Watchmen, Dr. Manhatten, and originally a really good and socially relevant comic book. http://www.dccomics.com/sites/watchmen/


----------



## Irbian

Hey, I have find at least the original source of inspiration for the stormraven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_A-40

The post where I found it is quite interesting too 
http://dvice.com/archives/2011/01/26-incredibly-b.php#9


----------



## Dynamike

MadCowCrazy said:


> a college called Bob[...] he is actually a machine with a human skin strapped on top of.
> 
> Bob loses most of his body, making it so only his brain could be salvaged.
> 
> They transfer your mind into Bobs body
> 
> The aliens rips off Bob skin and replaces it with one of the aliens own skin.


Poor Bob


----------



## Vhalyar

What the hell is going on here. What is this all abo- no, nevermind, don't tell me 

Instead, have some very interesting fuel for the rumour mill.
Reds8n at Warseer hinted in a somewhat blatant way that it's not actually Cruddace writing the GK codex like it was assumed.


reds8n said:


> Assuming it is Mr. Cruddace writing it anyway eh ? ;p


Then, H.B.M.C. at Dakka added that it wouldn't be Kelly either.


H.B.M.C. said:


> Phill Kelly ya say? Wouldn't that be nice.
> 
> But uhh... no. It ain't him either.


Then, again when someone suggested Chambers as the author, he gave a negative and also shot down Jervis.


H.B.M.C. said:


> Yeah but for FFG, not for GW.
> 
> And it ain't Jervis either. But that's all I'm saying. I can hear the black helicopters starting already...


Harry confirmed some time ago that Ward is writing the Necron codex, and so the current suspect is... Adam Troke, who wrote the High Elves army book and is the author of the Incoming! Grey Knights article.
Well, this assumes that H.B.M.C. can be trusted concerning the author rumours. Any Fantasy players here want to chime in on the quality of the High Elves army book?


----------



## Azezel

I believe there were hints that GW were cooking up a fresh batch of codex writers, but they weren't supposed to be flying solo so soon?


----------



## boreas

Well, HE, I hear, are pretty good (top tier). They have the best SC in the game (Teclis)... Hopefully, so will we 

Phil


----------



## genesis80

boreas said:


> Well, HE, I hear, are pretty good (top tier). They have the best SC in the game (Teclis)... Hopefully, so will we
> 
> Phil


I honestly doubt Teclis is the best SC since the latest ed makes magic much more unpredictable.


----------



## coke123

genesis80 said:


> I honestly doubt Teclis is the best SC since the latest ed makes magic much more unpredictable.


:rofl: Then what is? Most good magical armies have ways around this randomness- there are quite a few items that can generate PD, and a Teclis army will certainly include them.

Ignoring points, it's probably between Teclis and Fateweaver, but point for point Teclis is the man.

HE are incredibly strong, always have been, always will be. They were very good in 7th, but really come into their own with Mr. Ward's 8th edition. They are currently ridiculously strong. ASF across the board was nice in 7th, and absolutely amazing in 8th. If Troke is doing GK, and he knows 40k (which I can't comment on), then we should be happy. High Elves are certainly top tier, probably second only to Daemons.


----------



## GrizBe

Teclis is the single, most broken character ever devised. Double his cost and he'd still be underpriced.


----------



## Vhalyar

coke123 said:


> If Troke is doing GK, and he knows 40k (which I can't comment on), then we should be happy. High Elves are certainly top tier, probably second only to Daemons.


Seems like while it's not impossible, it might be unlikely after all 



reds8n said:


> bhsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Adam Troke.
> 
> 
> 
> Writes for the web team and/or WD. To the best of my knowledge he doesn't write codices or army books any more. As lead writer anyway, I'm sure he, as all the Design Studio do, will have chipped in with ideas and suggestions.
Click to expand...

So this does beg the question, who's behind the Grey Knights codex? Not Cruddace (says Red), not Ward (says Harry), not Kelly (says some old Games Day rumor and more recently H.B.M.C.), not Jervis (again H.B.M.C.), not Chambers (H.B.M.C. once again), not Vetock (writing Orcs & Goblins 8th ed)?


----------



## boreas

I hear the fluff part was C.S Goto. The rule part didn't need a writer as the took a batch of the old codex and stapled the "Stormraven for all chapters" WD article to them.



Phil


----------



## Bindi Baji

boreas said:


> I hear the fluff part was C.S Goto.


Not sure if that was part of the joke but Goto has not worked for GW for a few years now.


As to who's writing it, 
I do know that Kelly was involved at some point, 
whether he was writing or just assisting though I don't know......


----------



## boreas

Goto still remains a legend. Although, in all fairness, I've never read anything from him... On a more serious note, could it be a collective work? If no one wrote it, it might be that they all did? I really don't know how GW usually proceeds when writing a codice, but if I had a group of guy like they do at GW, I'd make most codice a collective effort for the rules part. Bring everyone in one afternoon and brainstorm ideas, have a "secretary" collect ideas and put them in writing. Have the guys play a few games to get a feel for those ideas. Rehash the idea in a subsequent meeting and so on until you hammer down a great codex...

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> As to who's writing it,
> I do know that Kelly was involved at some point,
> whether he was writing or just assisting though I don't know......


Apparently he was on the project early on, which then got handed off to someone else. This came out of one of the Games Days if I remember.


----------



## Irbian

Something to chew boys



> This is a notice from the group 'Rumors Sweet Little Rumors':
> 
> "Check back in with Blood of Kittens in the next 24 hours for some more Grey Knight Rumors..."
> 
> 
> To view this group log in and follow the link below:
> http://bloodofkittens.com/groups/grey-knight-rumors/


----------



## GrizBe

Ehh.. probably more rehashed, heard it all already, will be debunked in 5 minutes rubbish to try and get people to join his blog. I don't rate BoK at all.


----------



## Dynamike

Received an e-mail from GW stating Blood Angel stuff available for advance order. 

Gave a look at the Stormraven and is 66$ US and 79.25$ Canadian.

Really? Almost 80$ for a flying plastic brick? I do like the model really but seriously this is expensive. I understand it is an expensive hobby and I am ok with that, but this is... a bit too much expensive for 1 unit. I'll probably just get 1 depending on how it is in the codex but not more than that. 

Other than that, pretty excited with GK so far, let's hope we get to see our mini heroes soon!


----------



## IanC

Having seen one in the flesh I can see why it costs a fair bit. It has a lot of bits, more than a Valkyrie

edit - well going by GW it doesn't. But it looked like more. Maybe its because some of the bits are bigger than the Valk bits?


----------



## Dynamike

As for canadian players, just for reference, the site where I usually shop let's you purchase the Storm Raven for cheaper in canadian $ than GW sells it in US $. Quite funny really, 63.40$ CAN Vs 79.25$ CAN.

My intent is not to promote a specific website but people who might not know it can give it a look. Where I usually shop is miniwargaming.com, they are pretty funny too. Does anyone else know another website in Canada?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I got the BoK email as well, I bet they will have a really uber new and exciting rumour, something that will shock us all. As my insanity allows me to look into the future I already know what it is and have decided to share it with you in advance! The uber cool rumour is that the GKs can use the Stormraven!!! GASP!!!


----------



## GrizBe

No!! It'll be that there are GK icons on the sprue and that the new Grey Knight colour scheme is shown on the back of the box!


----------



## Vhalyar

Dynamike said:


> My intent is not to promote a specific website but people who might not know it can give it a look. Where I usually shop is miniwargaming.com, they are pretty funny too. Does anyone else know another website in Canada?


It's not in Canada, but try Maelstrom. It's cheaper than Mini Wargaming and has free shipping. Just expect your order to take around a week to arrive.

Edit: As for BoK, I do think we'll be getting something interesting. The previous rumors were pretty beefy, so I imagine that this new deal will be even more peculiar.


----------



## Katie Drake

Dynamike said:


> My intent is not to promote a specific website but people who might not know it can give it a look. Where I usually shop is miniwargaming.com, they are pretty funny too. Does anyone else know another website in Canada?


Yeah, I sometimes use www.heavysupport.com. It was better when you were able to stop by the owner's house and pick stuff up instead of going to the city. Oh well, they still have good prices.


----------



## coke123

Dynamike said:


> Received an e-mail from GW stating Blood Angel stuff available for advance order.
> 
> Gave a look at the Stormraven and is 66$ US and 79.25$ Canadian.
> 
> Really? Almost 80$ for a flying plastic brick? I do like the model really but seriously this is expensive. I understand it is an expensive hobby and I am ok with that, but this is... a bit too much expensive for 1 unit. I'll probably just get 1 depending on how it is in the codex but not more than that.
> 
> Other than that, pretty excited with GK so far, let's hope we get to see our mini heroes soon!


I would love to have it that cheap...



Dynamike said:


> As for canadian players, just for reference, the site where I usually shop let's you purchase the Storm Raven for cheaper in canadian $ than GW sells it in US $. Quite funny really, 63.40$ CAN Vs 79.25$ CAN.
> 
> My intent is not to promote a specific website but people who might not know it can give it a look. Where I usually shop is miniwargaming.com, they are pretty funny too. Does anyone else know another website in Canada?


I already checked it out- Wayland Games has it cheaper than Maelstrom. Fifty Bucks Australian, which is pretty much the same as the Canadian Dollar. For Aussies, that's half price, once you include shipping.

EDIT: They're not Canadian, but it's still cheaper.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

coke123 said:


> I already checked it out- Wayland Games has it cheaper than Maelstrom. Fifty Bucks Australian, which is pretty much the same as the Canadian Dollar. For Aussies, that's half price, once you include shipping.
> 
> EDIT: They're not Canadian, but it's still cheaper.


Maelstrom was cheaper when they had the Jan 17,5% off coupon active for anyone wanting to do an early preorder, now when it's not available Wayland is cheaper.
However Huddersfield Games should be cheaper than both because they offer 20% off on most GW stuff +Free Shipping

Wayland Games  25% off +PP
Furioso Dreadnought kit £22.16 +PP 2.50£ = 24,66£
Stormraven £32.80 +PP 2.50£ = 35,3£

Maelstrom 11% off +Free Shipping, sends out loads of 17,5% off coupons if you subscribe to newsletter
Furioso Dreadnought kit £24.93 delivered
Stormraven £36.90 delivered 

Huddersfield Games 
Furioso Dreadnought kit _roughly_ £23.10 delivered
Stormraven _roughly_ £34.16 delivered 
I made these calculations myself and could be wrong!

Maelstrom has been my first choice for about a year now when the old webshop I used to go to stopped selling outside the UK.
Came into contact with Huddersfield Games through the Ultraforge review that Beasts of War did. I ordered the Plague Demon and Pleasure Demon from them and when I started asking questions about their GW sales policy I was informed that they pretty much offer 20% off on everything plus free shipping.
They are a new webstore so most of what they sell is not even on their site yet. Send them an email and they should answer you within a day with the info you are asking for.

We did however see a few webstores go under last year shortly after they were started but I do hope Huddersfield can make it in this very competitive business.
There are a few other webstores I haven't mentioned that offer 25% off etc but they have such high postage costs that I wont even bother.

I will mention Dark Sphere though for those who live near their store. Their postage costs makes it not worth buying from them.
Blood Angels Furioso Dreadnought
Web Price: £20.78 33% Off
Shop Price: £22.16 25% Off

Stormraven
Web Price: £30.75 33% Off
Shop Price: £32.80 25% Off

They have this Policy:
If you spend over £100 at RRP and place the order through our website for store pick up we will match our web prices and there is no shipping to pay.

So if you make a larger order and go pick the stuff up at their store they are the cheapest option but pretty much only for people living in London.


----------



## Dynamike

It seems really interesting but there is something I am not too sure about. Since I am in Quebec Canada, when I order something from UK, is it possible I have to pay customs charges? I am not sure how it works and if it might apply, does anyone knows? Would be sad to order, receive extra charges and ruin the benifit to shop with them.


----------



## Vhalyar

The BoK rumor got posted:


> "The Grey Knights are getting a new unit or they are getting an upgrade that causes an automatic hit to any enemy model in base-to-base with them. This hit wounds on a 4+ regardless of enemies toughness with normal saves allowed and occurs before ALL attacks (think old mandiblasters), but still adds to combat resolution at the end of combat."


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> The BoK rumor got posted:


Was just about to post it. To me it sounds allot like Holocaust, could this be a new version of the psychic power?
Then again it has been said before that Holocaust is now a 5" pieplate with 12" range.

Maybe it's a new version of Sanctuary? I dont think the old one would remain as it is seriously OP vs Daemon players. So maybe this is the new version of it?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Was just about to post it. To me it sounds allot like Holocaust, could this be a new version of the psychic power?
> Then again it has been said before that Holocaust is now a 5" pieplate with 12" range.


We're getting closer to release, so I'll talk about what I heard.

The power mentioned is (I think) the new Holocaust. How I was told that it works is as follows:

Lets say we have a unit of 20 Gaunts charging some Grey Knights. One of the Knights has the Holocaust power. After assault moves are done but before attacks are resolved, the Grey Knight passes his psychic test to use Holocaust. Each model in the enemy unit is hit once by an attack that always wounds on a 4+ and allows normal armor saves.

What that basically means is that before anyone gets to swing, the Knights can blow through half of a unit that has a poor armor save. In the above example, we're looking at 9 dead Gaunts most likely - and that's before the Knights attack.

It seems really crazy and brutal, but honestly it's only really effective against large units with really poor armor saves and kind of falls down against things with a save better than 4+. Naturally it's possible that the rule was changed from the playtest version so that it only hits models in base to base with Grey Knights. It'd be a lot less deadly, but people would bitch less.


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm... Again, nothing really worth signing up exclusivly to BoK for, but if thats true, I like it.

Okay, maybe its more usefull against large squads of low save models... but, by the luck of the dice gods, your still gonna take out an extra one or two tougher models with that.


----------



## boreas

Dynamike said:


> It seems really interesting but there is something I am not too sure about. Since I am in Quebec Canada, when I order something from UK, is it possible I have to pay customs charges? I am not sure how it works and if it might apply, does anyone knows? Would be sad to order, receive extra charges and ruin the benifit to shop with them.


Quebecois too! You'll get "caught" by customs about 20% of the time, unless it's a big package and they have to keep it at the post office. It that case, you'll pay taxes about 66% of the time. Still worth it anyways!

I've not bought anything from GW worth more than 20$ in Canada for that last 6 years. Sad for my local store, but, GW is just ridiculous.

NEW POWER!

Yeah, that would definitely solve the "elite vs hordes" problem! Orks ans Nids are two of my bet friend's armies, so bring it on!!

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> Quebecois too! You'll get "caught" by customs about 20% of the time, unless it's a big package and they have to keep it at the post office. It that case, you'll pay taxes about 66% of the time. Still worth it anyways!


Montreal here  (I don't suppose either of you are too?)
I've ordered a lot of things from Maelstrom, including a 100£+ order, and I've never been hassled by customs. I guess I've been pretty lucky so far?

The nice thing about free shipping worldwide is that you can split your order into multiple smaller ones if you really are wary of customs.


----------



## boreas

Yep, South Shore!!!

Dude, the mods at Warseer really hate the Grey Knights. They've, again, move the rumor thread to general because of too much non-rumor chatter. This army is officially the next one. It's coming in 64 days. Rumors are popping up slowly but will snowball. And still they move it 

Man, do I like HH or what... 

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Katie Drake said:


> We're getting closer to release, so I'll talk about what I heard.


This is they way I have always wanted Aura of Decay for Chaos Daemons to work, but in a 6" bubble around the Daemon instead. Automatic hit that wounds on a 4+, sounds like a nurgle aura if I ever saw one.

Do you have any idea about other psychic powers?
To me the one mentioned sounds more like a new version of Sanctuary but it could just as well be Holocaust.
I guess we will found on late next month or so.


----------



## Irbian

Just thinking... what they are meaning with "a new unit"?


----------



## GrizBe

On the new unit rumour for GK's... I heard something today. There is meant to be a new unit along the lines of the Purgation squad, but much more specialised.... soo, possibly a unit with multiple numbers of a new weapon.


----------



## Irbian

Especialized? in antitroops or antitank?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Do you have any idea about other psychic powers?


Ha, I didn't mean to open myself up to questions, but what the hell. 

Yeah, I've heard stuff about Hammerhand. Basically, it's cast in the assault phase, and the casting unit gains +1S until the end of the turn which is awfully nice when everyone's packing a force weapon.



> To me the one mentioned sounds more like a new version of Sanctuary but it could just as well be Holocaust.
> I guess we will found on late next month or so.


Yeah, my first guess was Holocaust but Sanctuary is possible. It could easily be something else entirely also.


----------



## boreas

I guess it depends on the exact wording. If the power works when GKs are assaulted, I guess it could be sanctuary. If it's at de beginning of any GK assault phase, then it might be Holocaust. Quite frankly I think this might be costly if you consider the exact effect:

30 Orks assaulting my 8 GKs. 15 wounded, 12-13 dead before the assault begins! I attack 16 times, hit 10 times, wound 5 times (assuming St4 Force weapons, for fun). The remaining 12 boyz attack 48 times, hit 24 times, wound 12 times, I've got 4 dead guys. . The powerklaw attacks and kills 1 more. I win the combat by 13-14... Since they're fearless (mob rule), the remaining Orks pretty much all die...


Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

boreas said:


> I guess it depends on the exact wording. If the power works when GKs are assaulted, I guess it could be sanctuary. If it's at de beginning of any GK assault phase, then it might be Holocaust. Quite frankly I think this might be costly if you consider the exact effect:
> 
> 30 Orks assaulting my 8 GKs. 15 wounded, 12-13 dead before the assault begins! I attack 16 times, hit 10 times, wound 5 times (assuming St4 Force weapons, for fun). The remaining 12 boyz attack 48 times, hit 24 times, wound 12 times, I've got 4 dead guys. . The powerklaw attacks and kills 1 more. I win the combat by 13-14... Since they're fearless (mob rule), the remaining Orks pretty much all die...
> 
> 
> Phil


I seriously doubt Holocaust wounds will count for the purposes of determining who wins the assault, assuming it works like I described.


----------



## boreas

I think it's pretty harsh, but according to BoK it does...

Does anyone know if the LR redeemer is in? I'd hate to be painting mine for nothing!

Phil


----------



## OrdoMalleus

boreas said:


> Does anyone know if the LR redeemer is in? I'd hate to be painting mine for nothing!
> 
> Phil


I Hope so! My whole army revolves around my GM and retinue striking at Int.10!!! :grin:


Plus whats better than Ap.3 ignore cover flamers????



Oh right, AP3 ignore invun, ignore cover flamers! Thankyou FW!


----------



## Irbian

Katie Drake said:


> Ha, I didn't mean to open myself up to questions, but what the hell.
> 
> Yeah, I've heard stuff about Hammerhand. Basically, it's cast in the assault phase, and the casting unit gains +1S until the end of the turn which is awfully nice when everyone's packing a force weapon.


You sir are a gentleman! :biggrin: Ermm... wait. You know what I mean >-<



About the flame cannons, flame cannons or assault cannons? Im in love with that 40k gatling gun.


----------



## equitypetey

OrdoMalleus said:


> I Hope so! My whole army revolves around my GM and retinue striking at Int.10!!! :grin:
> 
> 
> Plus whats better than Ap.3 ignore cover flamers????
> 
> 
> 
> Oh right, AP3 ignore invun, ignore cover flamers! Thankyou FW!


i love my redeemer oh so much..... say good bye to your squad flamers are so much fun


----------



## Azezel

OrdoMalleus said:


> Thankyou FW!


Which is the important bit. The GK Redeemer is Forgeworld. It's not official, so it can hardly be invalidated by a new codex. The only question is whether it will be in the codex. If not, it's still in IA and no-one can take that away from you. Except the person you're playing, of course, FW rules are permission only.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Azezel said:


> Which is the important bit. The GK Redeemer is Forgeworld. It's not official, so it can hardly be invalidated by a new codex. The only question is whether it will be in the codex. If not, it's still in IA and no-one can take that away from you. Except the person you're playing, of course, FW rules are permission only.


Quite right, but I generally only play at the local club or round mates houses, both of which have the rule "FW models cool to be used without having to ask your opponents permission". (Theory is, if they have agreed to play you, they have agreed to play you no matter what you feild)

However, whilst I suspect GKs will be able to access the LR redeemer in the new codex which may or may not have flamestorm incinerators that ignore Invuns, I doubt that the Psk out launchers will be included as they are probably too overpowered for "official GW".


----------



## boreas

Re-reading the BoK rumor... It's not the unit in B2B, it's models. So I guess with 8 GKs, you'll get at the most 16-18 models in B2B if you maximize. So 8-9 wounds, 6-8 dead orks. Still good, but not as overpowered. 

Phil


----------



## slaaneshy

boreas said:


> I guess it depends on the exact wording. If the power works when GKs are assaulted, I guess it could be sanctuary. If it's at de beginning of any GK assault phase, then it might be Holocaust. Quite frankly I think this might be costly if you consider the exact effect:
> 
> 30 Orks assaulting my 8 GKs. 15 wounded, 12-13 dead before the assault begins! I attack 16 times, hit 10 times, wound 5 times (assuming St4 Force weapons, for fun). The remaining 12 boyz attack 48 times, hit 24 times, wound 12 times, I've got 4 dead guys. . The powerklaw attacks and kills 1 more. I win the combat by 13-14... Since they're fearless (mob rule), the remaining Orks pretty much all die...
> 
> 
> Phil



However, since the Grey Knights are designed to be the elite Daemon/Chaos hunting force of the Imperium, they shouldn't be fighting Orks anyway!


----------



## OrdoMalleus

slaaneshy said:


> However, since the Grey Knights are designed to be the elite Daemon/Chaos hunting force of the Imperium, they shouldn't be fighting Orks anyway!



Yes, but even GW arent stupid enough to release a codex that can only be used against one army!


Besides there are more than enough fluff lines for the GK to be fighting orks.
(they found a possesed relic, their warboss is possesed, they incorperated corrupted/possesed parts into their wargear. etc.)


----------



## boreas

To a Grey Knight, everything that is not a Grey Knight is a daemon


----------



## Irbian

boreas said:


> To a Grey Knight, everything that is not a Grey Knight is a daemon


Or a cultist... or a traitor marine...:biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

Well everything will be a deamon to them if that 'Counts as' psychic power rumour turns out to be true...


----------



## Tuatara

boreas said:


> To a Grey Knight, everything that is not a Grey Knight is a daemon


That's the cool thing about playing a fundamentalist army. Everything is black or white and there is no grey (ironically).


----------



## Azezel

GrizBe said:


> Well everything will be a deamon to them if that 'Counts as' psychic power rumour turns out to be true...


I thought that was a fairly cool idea (Out the Daemon? Som ething like that...) - but no one has mentioned anything like it since that first rumour.


----------



## GrizBe

Seems logical though that an army specialized in demon killing, with weapons that effect them, would have a psychic power that makes nondemon units count as demons. Thats my reason for liking it...

And to be fair, alot of rumours have only been mentioned once... and some of those once mentioned ones are now known facts.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

OrdoMalleus said:


> Yes, but even GW arent stupid enough to release a codex that can only be used against one army!


They did once, hopefully never again.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

I have under excellant faith the following Gray Knight rumours, (Warning, proceed with caution)
http://inquisitork.blogspot.com/


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Busty Redhead: All stats at 4, 2 Wounds, 4+ Invul. Starts with two one handed weapons of your choice, loses both after first turn. "We don't keep her around because she's particularly good at her job..."

;D


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Some REALLY off topic posts removed. I am very lenient on what goes on in this thread as long as it is at least related to warhammer or GW but these posts had nothing to do with it at all.

Take it in PMs if you still want to discuss it.


----------



## Bodo1260

i want a hat please :grin:


----------



## Karnox

I want a rouge trader XD


----------



## bhsman

Reds8n posted this over at Dakka, in response to another poster stating they would prefer not to use Special Characters to unlock units as Troop choices:



reds8n said:


> fatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I choose not to use it just like I choose not too include SC in my forces
> 
> 
> 
> Then, alas, I would you suggest you won't be fielding (m)any Inquisitorial storm trooper units with the new codex.
Click to expand...

This seems to back up Stinger's earlier rumor of Coteaz unlocking Henchmen as troops, though it might end up being a different SC altogether.


----------



## Azezel

They're probably not going to include two named Inquisitors, what with the downplaying of =][= units.

I have to agree with Fatty, though. Forcing people to take SC to play the army they want is a bad idea.

Would it kill them to just put stormtroopers in the Elites section for (hypothetically) 10 points AND the troops section for (again, Hypothetically) 12 points, and a little not saying that one army may not include Stormtroopers as both Elite and Troops.?

That way, people can play the army they want without having to drag along a SC who really has no reason to be in most armies.

Same in any codex, for that matter. Instead of Character X makes unit Y troops, just put unit Y in both sections, with a higher price as troops, to reflect the advantage of being scoring. Again, with a note that the two different unit types may not both be used together.


----------



## bhsman

That actually sounds like a bad idea; I'd prefer just having normal Inquisitors/Lords unlock them as troops alongside the SC version, but I'm not really upset over the SC either.

Looking at earlier rumors, it'll be a SC who doesn't specifically unlock Stormtroopers as Troops but Henchmen altogether, which may contain things that would make sense to have a unique character unlock, like Death Cult Assassins and so on.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Azezel said:


> I have to agree with Fatty, though. Forcing people to take SC to play the army they want is a bad idea.


Thats the system with current codexs though: SC unlock units or capabilities:
-Take a SM captain on bike to unlock bikes as troops (admittedly not a SC, but if you Kassaro khan you get the same effect)
-Belial/Azrael makes termies troops
-Dante makes sanguard troops, Astorath removes 0-1 limit on death company

and so on and so: they are the example that spring to mind. therefore you probably have to take an inquisitor to take IST as troops although hopefully it wont be a SC.

Also, whilst chatting at my LGS the discussion arose as to which FOC StormRavens will be? 
Which led on to someone metioning a rumour thread which said that BA sort of a test bed for GK:
-likely hood of GK having a version of "Descent of angels" except with teleporters?
-LRs as dedicated transport? and Can DeepStrike?


Unfortunately I cannot find any other source for this but I wondered if anyone had any inklings on this?


----------



## coke123

I'm actually wondering what rule will replace Skies of Blood for the GK version- since to me it seems a little risky for an army that doesn't have jump packs to mitigate the threat of expensive troops dying to dangerous terrain tests. I"m thinking that it might just be reworded, but I'm hoping for some kind of shrouding on it.


----------



## boreas

Well, pretty much everyone is betting on "skies of Grey". I'm going for "Skies of Grey with 95% chance of raining knights". 

I'd rather they removed it completely since, as you've said, it doesn't fit the GK playstyle. Maybe shave a few points off the SR (5? 10?).

Phil


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Getting it cheaper would be good! maybe letting us take it as a dedicated transport would be perfect if a little OTT!

It also seems that GW is trying tirelessly to standardise everything (i.e same equipment does same thing regardless of codex) so I would quite like to see GK "blessed hull" become the same as Black Templars (Lance rule has no effect for those who arent BT fans =P)


----------



## bhsman

If anything they'll probably add more abilities (like the psychic power that lets you increase the AV - not saying it'll be that, but I could see it happening) that will increase the overall price.


----------



## slaaneshy

OrdoMalleus said:


> Yes, but even GW arent stupid enough to release a codex that can only be used against one army!
> 
> 
> Besides there are more than enough fluff lines for the GK to be fighting orks.
> (they found a possesed relic, their warboss is possesed, they incorperated corrupted/possesed parts into their wargear. etc.)


That is all a bit lame. What would be far better (and make some extra sales) is the option to take some limited daemons choices with a non daemon army playing against Grey Knights - then you really have a reason to deploy the emperors finest against anyone...if the Ork leader is possessed - then a great big Blood Thirster should pop out of his head!!:yahoo:


----------



## OrdoMalleus

slaaneshy said:


> That is all a bit lame. What would be far better (and make some extra sales) is the option to take some limited daemons choices with a non daemon army playing against Grey Knights - then you really have a reason to deploy the emperors finest against anyone...if the Ork leader is possessed - then a great big Blood Thirster should pop out of his head!!:yahoo:


It might be, my point was that GK do so much more than simply fight daemons. For example, GK are also used to:
-Purge Rogue SM chapters (Relictors)
-Capture Relics to fight Chaos
-Defend Relics from Chaos (Luxor Rebellion)
Any in the process, the Relics may belong to any other race. Just because the GK are trying to seal your sacred shrine to stop a bloodthirster pooping into the 40K realm doesnt mean the bloodthirster is on your side and that you get to control it!:russianroulette:


Edit: Yes, 3000th post on this thread  hahaha


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> Well, pretty much everyone is betting on "skies of Grey". I'm going for "Skies of Grey with 95% chance of raining knights".
> 
> I'd rather they removed it completely since, as you've said, it doesn't fit the GK playstyle. Maybe shave a few points off the SR (5? 10?).
> 
> Phil


Cloudy with a chance of horrifying death!

I think that removing Skies of Blood would be worth more than a 10pts decrease. I'd think somewhere around 25pts.



slaaneshy said:


> That is all a bit lame. What would be far better (and make some extra sales) is the option to take some limited daemons choices with a non daemon army playing against Grey Knights - then you really have a reason to deploy the emperors finest against anyone...if the Ork leader is possessed - then a great big Blood Thirster should pop out of his head!!:yahoo:


Except that they already have this rule- and it's insanely crap. I've never seen anyone make use of it, mostly because very few non-chaos players own daemon models. Not to mention that they've taken the time to develop all comers lists, and probably don't really want to rewrite their list just to accomodate fluff.

Also, just because they're Daemonhunters, it doesn't mean that they exclusively fight daemons- that's just their main job. Xenos and other Imperial factions can inadvertantly be manipulated towards the Dark Gods ends, and the Inquisition can work in mysterious ways- PErhaps the Eldar have been making raids on Inquisitorial outposts, so they decide to mete out justice in the form of a bunch of NFWs, or an Ork Waagh! is threatening a nearby system, and the Knights are the only nearby response unit.


----------



## slaaneshy

OrdoMalleus said:


> It might be, my point was that GK do so much more than simply fight daemons. For example, GK are also used to:
> -Purge Rogue SM chapters (Relictors)
> -Capture Relics to fight Chaos
> -Defend Relics from Chaos (Luxor Rebellion)
> Any in the process, the Relics may belong to any other race. Just because the GK are trying to seal your sacred shrine to stop a bloodthirster pooping into the 40K realm doesnt mean the bloodthirster is on your side and that you get to control it!:russianroulette:
> 
> 
> Edit: Yes, 3000th post on this thread  hahaha



These are still anti-chaos motivations though. Perhaps the option to add a Chaos Lord as a HQ would also of been a good move.
Anyhow, I'm obviously a fluff nazi, it just sits badly with me, tis all!


----------



## Winterous

slaaneshy said:


> These are still anti-chaos motivations though. Perhaps the option to add a Chaos Lord as a HQ would also of been a good move.
> Anyhow, I'm obviously a fluff nazi, it just sits badly with me, tis all!


Hey look, I'm a Tyranid swarm being led by a Marine!

NO.
There are countless reasons why Grey Knights might fight non-Daemon foes, and the biggest one is so they can actually be in the fucking game.


----------



## superwill

Haha slaaneshy mate, that's not being a fluff nazi. That's being totally unfluffy. Like others have said, there are plenty of reasons why GK would need to fight other armies even if there isn't a chaos representative on the field. Even if it were always anti-chaos motivated, that doesn't mean they only fight against chaos. I can picture it now:

"My fellow Grey Knights, these orks have unwittingly stumbled upon an ancient daemonic gateway and are refusing to budge. Unfortunately, since there is no Chaos representative in their ranks we don't have the jurisdiction, so we'll just have to wait for them to activate the portal, a demon to pop out, and THEN we can go!"

Just give it a ponder for a second buddy 

p.s. I don't really know how portal things work in 40k, but either way the principal is the same


----------



## Vhalyar

Getting back to rumors for a moment...
Two tidbits from Dakka's Reds8n and BrassScorpion:



reds8n said:


> fatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I choose not to use it just like I choose not too include SC in my forces
> 
> 
> 
> Then, alas, I would you suggest you won't be fielding (m)any Inquisitorial storm trooper units with the new codex.
Click to expand...

Backing up Blood of Kittens' rumor that Henchmen are Elites and can be taken as Troops only with a SC. Bodes well for the rest of BoK's rumors :grin:



BrassScorpion said:


> we shouldn't be surprised IF they are given that (rhino) option now
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of transports, Grey Knights in Rhinos _and_ Drop Pods might be something we see in April. Glad I have a few of both kits waiting for the next project where they are needed.
Click to expand...

Drop Pods is something no one's mentioned yet in their rumors I believe.


----------



## GrizBe

I'll actually point out that the rumour about SC making henchmen troops came from Stickmonkey first.... nothing I've seen from BoK so far has been backed up by anyone else, appart from things that were already said before he'd said them.

It was the same for his DE rumours... he got the vast majority of them wrong.


----------



## boreas

Drop pods would be weird, as the GK, up to now, have always dropped on the surface with teleporting and/or thunderhawks. But I guess it would sell kits. Now, if GW wants to sell Drop-pod kits, will we see teleportation disappear completely for PAGK (as who would pay 35pts for a DP in an already point-expensive army when you can teleport?). Would Drop-pods be for Troops whereas teleportation would be for FA PAGK? Rhinos don't surpise me though. For all the "GK 'port in, whack everything, the 'port out" fluff, I'm pretty sure wiping out a few hundred chaos Space Marines, backed by a few thousand cultists, a few thousand renegade IGs and a few thousand daemons means being on the battlefield for a few months. For those times, rhinos will get your very rare GKs from one point to the other safer than teleporting here and there all the time.

Intriguing!

Phil


----------



## bhsman

Too bad I beat you to that rumor on the last page, Vhaylar.  (Mango?)

Coteaz making Henchmen troops was one of Stingers rumors IIRC, and BoK inferred something similar.


----------



## Vhalyar

bhsman said:


> Too bad I beat you to that rumor on the last page, Vhaylar.  (Mango?)
> 
> Coteaz making Henchmen troops was one of Stingers rumors IIRC, and BoK inferred something similar.


You did? Blah, I even skimmed to make sure it was new. At least the BrassScorpion bit was new. And I do wear a mango-colored polo.

Edit: Actually, BoK posted their rumors (December 1) before Stinger (December 17), so it's really all up in the air. He did add the precision that it's Coteaz.


----------



## bhsman

Yea, they _s_aid you would s_t_ill have _a_ v_i_able use for you_r_ model_s_ or somesuch.


----------



## Vhalyar

bhsman said:


> Yea, they _s_aid you would s_t_ill have _a_ v_i_able use for you_r_ model_s_ or somesuch.


I got the date wrong; it's in the second part (December 3) that BoK put up the bit about an Inquisitor turning henchmen into troops.

On the other hand, Stinger was the first person to use the term Dreadknight, right? Because Reds8n is saying that the Dreadknight is confirmed.



reds8n said:


> Vhalyar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reds8n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kroothawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I start with the complete list of confirmed rumours:
> 
> Grey Knights will get a new Codex and miniatures in April.
> 
> 
> 
> Dreadknight is comfirmed too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Confirmed or "confirmed"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In this instance, it is indeed sans quotation marks.
Click to expand...

Now I want to dig back his posts because it's looking like he did sneak a peak at the codex. Incidentally, I am protected. By the Emperor.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Now I want to dig back his posts


aaarrgghh!, 
that quote around quote around quote stuff does weird things to my eyes


----------



## Vhalyar

Bindi Baji said:


> aaarrgghh!,
> that quote around quote around quote stuff does weird things to my eyes


When you gaze into the quote tree, the quote tree gazes back into you.


----------



## soulreaver296

Vhalyar said:


> When you gaze into the quote tree, the quote tree gazes back into you.


I just saw forever... and have seen TRUE answer to life, the universe and everything, and it is 42k!


----------



## mahavira

Does anyone else think it's wierd that Storm Troopers are elites in an army where guys who are more elite than most space marines are troops?


----------



## coke123

I think that you're placing too much signifigance in the word 'elite'. I think that it's just a general term used to describe an entry that's rarer than troops, but isn't particularly fast (as in not fast attack), and doesn't really give ranged support (and hence can't be described as Heavy Support). Basically, if you want to limit the number that can be taken, but don't want it to be part of the command structure, and yet don't really see a proper place for it to go, then shove it in elites.


----------



## GrizBe

Technically, 'Elites' should be specialised troops.... In real life for instance, Troops would be your normal army grunts and your elites would be your camando's and SAS squads etc.

So I guess, stromtroopers fit both of those moulds, being that they are basic troops, but they are a bit more specialised then your grey knights in basic armour.


----------



## coke123

I'm just saying that the word 'elite' might make reference to rarity, rather than skill. Considering we're looking at a codex that's rumoured to have GKT as troops... I think that's the assumption we should be working under for the purposes of this codex, at any rate. What they could do is simply make it so that the GK codex has no 'elites' slot, but instead has a slot called 'rares', although it would be far simpler for GW to simply assume you can make this transfer in your head .


----------



## Irbian

actually I have been toying with the idea that when "the organization of the chapter is going to change" maybe is refering to the army list. What about 4 slots for elite?


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> actually I have been toying with the idea that when "the organization of the chapter is going to change" maybe is refering to the army list. What about 4 slots for elite?


I kind of doubt that they'll do more FOC shenanigans after the failure of the Space Wolves codex.


----------



## Winterous

Vhalyar said:


> I kind of doubt that they'll do more FOC shenanigans after the failure of the Space Wolves codex.


Uh, how did the Space Wolves codex fail?
Daemons did almost the exact same thing, you know.


----------



## Vhalyar

Winterous said:


> Uh, how did the Space Wolves codex fail?
> Daemons did almost the exact same thing, you know.


I wasn't talking about being weak or in term of sales, but from a design point of view. There was an article floating at some point on the subject. The codex was designed with players taking multiple HQ units, and so their point costs were made lower than they should be to accommodate this fact. Instead, players grinded out the numbers and figured it was better to take a cheap (and powerful; hello Priests!) HQ and use the remaining points elsewhere :biggrin:

So in that sense, they failed to make proper use of a different FOC layout and it backfired once gamers figured out the system. 

As for daemons, we all know how they ended up.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Vhalyar said:


> I wasn't talking about being weak or in term of sales, but from a design point of view. There was an article floating at some point on the subject. The codex was designed with players taking multiple HQ units, and so their point costs were made lower than they should be to accommodate this fact. Instead, players grinded out the numbers and figured it was better to take a cheap (and powerful; hello Priests!) HQ and use the remaining points elsewhere :biggrin:


I must disagree, giving players the ability to take more than one HQ being cheap or expensive gives them the option on how to use their HQ slots. That is a more powerful decision than just making them the same humbuggery that is associated with Space Marines.

If that is a fault, then making Grey Hunters the best troops in the game (for their points) is insanity. I think the Space Wolves is one of the better designed codices around. Not many armies have the fluff built into their army selection. You can see that in the Dark Eldar codex by allowing you to create a Hamonculi coven, a Wych Cult, or a Kabal.


----------



## Irbian

The point is... it could be a possibility. I´ll left the fact that is a good/bad idea for another topic 

By the way, I can ask again. Are we lack of rumours? Or only my appreciation? Do you feel that the leaking is more tight?

Offtopic, I have found a primitive fusion cannon


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> I wasn't talking about being weak or in term of sales, but from a design point of view. There was an article floating at some point on the subject. The codex was designed with players taking multiple HQ units, and so their point costs were made lower than they should be to accommodate this fact. Instead, players grinded out the numbers and figured it was better to take a cheap (and powerful; hello Priests!) HQ and use the remaining points elsewhere :biggrin:


From a design point of view the Wolves are fine. Unless this article is right from the horse's mouth, I'd have to say that the Codex was designed to allow players to take more HQ choices _if they wanted to_, because the Space Wolves are the most "heroic" Chapter in that there are a lot of powerful individuals among their ranks. I seriously doubt that they'd price the Wolves HQ's any cheaper. A Rune Priest is fine at his current points cost - very good, no doubt, but not too cheap. And you can't tell me that Wolf Priests, Battle Leaders and Wolf Lords are under priced.



> As for daemons, we all know how they ended up.


Daemons failed because GW tends to fuck up the first time they try anything new - it's why the Space Marine armies function so well right now. They've spent years establishing how best to write a good Space Marine Codex and since they lavish more attention on Marines than anyone else they end up better designed than the other races.


----------



## Azezel

Remember the GK walker that got labeled with the mocking name 'Dreadknight'?

Got some bad news for you GK players.



reds8n said:


> Kanluwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, we still don't know if "Dreadknight" is the actual name. We just keep getting people saying it as a descriptive measure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We do, and it is.
Click to expand...




reds8n said:


> No, it really does exist and really is called that.


Oh, and H.B.M.C says that Cruddace definately did not write the 'dex.


----------



## coke123

I personally don't mind the name Dreadknight. A bit corny, but nothing can piss me off more than Marbo.


----------



## Katie Drake

Oh thank god. I had heard from my source that fed me some rumors a few weeks ago that the name was going to be the Twiliknight. Thank you for picking a not retarded name GW.


----------



## Azezel

Katie Drake said:


> Thank you for picking a not retarded name GW.


Obviously it's subjective, but I have difficulty saying 'dreadknight' outloud without smirking.

It puts me in mind of the sort of names used in merchandising-driven cartoons from the eighties. Everyone had terrible pun-based names that sound really cool when you're seven and much, much less cool now.

Still, I suppose if you have a heavy 12 psycannon, an Inferno Cannon and a 30 inch move you can call yourself whatever you like...


----------



## GrizBe

I don't see whats wrong with Dreadknight... Its a Dreadnaught, thats a Grey Knight. Cheesy, yes...but not terrible.


----------



## boreas

I don't really mind the silly names. GW's games used to be silly (ever read the lizardmen heroes' names!?). It add some fun to the game. Each time Marbo pops up, a player will yell "Adriaaaannnn" or "colonellllll" in a Sylvester Stallone voice...

Phil


----------



## Winterous

NOOO!
I wanted Dreadward Cullen :cray:


----------



## Azezel

The last time Sly Marbo popped up all I could manage was 'please don't hurt me' (he hurt me).


----------



## boreas

Ahhh man, when playing Wh40k, the hurt should really be in between the models. Having a model hurt a player is just not right 

Phil

ps Do we NEED rumors, or what?


----------



## Tuatara

Azezel said:


> Obviously it's subjective, but I have difficulty saying 'dreadknight' outloud without smirking.


Let’s be honest, who actually uses the term dreadnought anyway? Everyone I know says “dread”. Anything to reduce the syllable count to as few is possible. Anyway, I think I will like the idea of him opening up with his psycannon, jumping 30", slicing and dicing with his force weapon and then me asking "who's laughing now....punk" :laugh:


----------



## Winterous

Tuatara said:


> Let’s be honest, who actually uses the term dreadnought anyway?


...I do?

A lot of people do.


----------



## Azezel

Tuatara said:


> Let’s be honest, who actually uses the term dreadnought anyway?


I do, but I'm a pedantic sod.



Anyway I was typing 'sisters+' with random things into google on the off chance of finding something new (a chap's got to have a hobby) and sort of did.




James Swallow said:


> So we were in the recording studio yesterday ((January 28th - Azezel)) putting together our first ever all-girl Warhammer 40,000 audio drama - Red & Black, featuring the Sisters of Battle - and it was a pretty good day. Although I think I may have broken the voices of our actresses with all the shouting and snarling...
> 
> This audio story features the talent of the brilliant Beth Chalmers (previously heard in Black Library's Throne of Lies and Aenarion audios), who brought the character of Sister Miriya from my novel Faith & Fire to life. Joining Beth was the equally excellent Lisa Bowerman, better known as the titular heroine of the Bernice Summerfield audio series from Big Finish Productions. Lisa swapped acting and directing duties with the venerable Toby Longworth this time around.
> 
> Red & Black will be out later in the year; it's a prequel to Faith & Fire (which will also get a reprint soon) and be followed by the next adventure of the Sisters, Hammer & Anvil.


From this we can deduuce that _Red & Black_ is an all-Sister affair, and that Miriya is back (we guessed that already), though Verity may not be.


----------



## Tuatara

Winterous said:


> ...I do?
> 
> A lot of people do.





Azezel said:


> I do, but I'm a pedantic sod


Baa Ha Ha! OK then. Fair enough. I stand corrected.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I can't help but say dreadnought ...makes me think of the majestic Royal Navy. I love all things concerning WWII ( Grandfather was drafted for it ) and it really pisses the War Department off ( nickname for my wife :biggrin: ) if I see an advert for a new show concerning WWII. I am in awe of the power that the dreadnoughts were able to bring to bear, and so I have, and will always say the full name.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

About the Dreadnought thing:

Here in Germany they are just called Cybots and we call them 'bots'. I personally like Dreadnought more and don't know why they changed this awesome name...


----------



## exsulis

I think the Cybot thing has to do with the Legio Cybernetica, and ages past. Dreadnoughts, and Robots functioned similarly.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> I do, but I'm a pedantic sod.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I was typing 'sisters+' with random things into google on the off chance of finding something new (a chap's got to have a hobby) and sort of did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From this we can deduuce that _Red & Black_ is an all-Sister affair, and that Miriya is back (we guessed that already), though Verity may not be.


Id give you rep for this post but need to spread it out some more.


Got myself a Stormraven today, going to build it later tonight.


----------



## boreas

Darn, the first Saturday of the month is usually when GW makes big announcement and I had some hope to see Gk stuff but we're getting a BA publimercial  At least, my Wayland Order has just shipped so I should be getting my birds next week! I've have to chance to try out airbrushing on my GKLR Redeemer and boy does it look cool!

Oh well!

Phil


----------



## ibm6789

*Battle Sisters Missing*

They no longer have the Battle Sisters blister on the US site, although they are on the UK site.


----------



## Tuatara

When you click on the GK Terminator squad for more details, you get redirected back to the GW home page. From NZ anyway. You can get details of individual blister packs, just not the five man Termie squad. Not that I would buy any at the moment, but still.


----------



## Necrosis

ibm6789 said:


> They no longer have the Battle Sisters blister on the US site, although they are on the UK site.


There also gone on the Canadian website to.


----------



## Azezel

Tuatara said:


> When you click on the GK Terminator squad for more details, you get redirected back to the GW home page. From NZ anyway. You can get details of individual blister packs, just not the five man Termie squad. Not that I would buy any at the moment, but still.


The GK Terminator squad is still available from the UK site.

As for Sisters vanishing from the the American, Canadian and Kiwi sites... Grim indeed.

For some time now I've been wondering if the Battle Sister molds are starting to break down. I believe that most are vintage 1996 and the last Sisters I bought (some months ago) were nowhere near as crisp as some I have.

There has to be an upper limmit to how many cycles a mold will take and over fifteen years the Sisters molds must be very near that limmit.

Considering how far off any possible update is, the disapearance of even the blisters may be a grim sign. Unless there really is a repackaging in the offing. Although why now? It's been a year since the boxes vanished and nothing's changed that would make a repackaging more auspicious now than any time in the past.


----------



## soulreaver296

A random question, but do we expect there to be a Grey Knight Battleforce box sometime after the release, what with there FINALLY being plastic GKs? and if we do, what are we thinking for contents?


----------



## GrizBe

I doubt they'd do one, given that GK's are meant to be uberelite...

But IF they did, I could probably see it being just a razorback, a 5 man terminator squad and two 5 man PA squads.


----------



## Bindi Baji

There is no battleforce in the first GK wave at least


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm not sure when this happened but it seems GW has lowered the price of the Immolator kit to the same as a Razorback and Rhino. I never understood what sort of person would buy a Rhino when you get more bits with a Razorback or Chaos Rhino and now the Immolator kit.

Do correct me if it has been this way for a long time, last time I bought an Immolator the price was not the same at least.

Edit : Bah, just noticed Hammer & Anvil has been pushed back to December  So no Sisters of Battle book for me for my birthday 
Funnily enough Faith and Fire is also listed for release in December, why? It's already out and I doubt it'd be popular enough for a rerelease?
Hmmmmm.....

Checked out James Swallows blog and found this :


> Looking forward to this new year, there's a lot on the horizon - foremost is Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the videogame I've been working on since 2008 (which will also be joined by a novel I wrote, Deus Ex: Icarus Effect); the game looks amazing and I can't wait to see the finished article. I also have a couple of other books scheduled for 2011 - a movie-era Star Trek novel (Cast No Shadow) and a new Warhammer 40,000 Sisters of Battle book (Hammer & Anvil). The latter will be joined by a Sisters audiobook (Red & Black) and a reprint of my 2006 novel Faith & Fire. If that's not enough from the Grim Dark Future, I have stories in the Age of Darkness and Victories of the Space Marines anthologies, plus another audiobook (Legion of One). And not forgetting the Highlander: The Four Horseman audio box set, which I worked on as script editor. I'm also hoping 2011 will at last see the release of the third Stargate audio drama series; more on that (and other unanounced projects) as and when they happen...


----------



## IanC

When I got a Immolator back in December it was the same price as a Rhino.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

IanC said:


> When I got a Immolator back in December it was the same price as a Rhino.


When I bought mine I believe it was 5£ more than a regular rhino. This is a positive development indeed 
Then again Sisters in Blisters (sounds like a 80s female rock band) are too expensive to be viable for anything atm. Might as well buy some marines and just proxy.


----------



## Irbian

Marshall Augustine on Warseer said:


> Grand Master rumoured to pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
> Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
> Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
> Makes them have counter attack USR.
> Makes them Scout
> All these units are affected by the one choice.
> 
> Terminators equipped with frag and krack grenades.


Source

What do you people think?


----------



## GrizBe

I'd think terminators having grenades is probably bollocks... and the D3 units having a special rule...? I think thats a little too unstable to really impliment. 

Making units scoring would only be usefull for expensive units that can't hold anywhere.. dreads etc... but that makes them bullet magnets.

Re-rolling 1's to wound is probably the most useful, but GK's should be instakilling most things anyway giving the other rules and stats they should have... soo its kinda 50/50.

Counter attack USR? I'd have no idea how that would work, ands its kinda cheese as your opponant would bitch about one unit screwing up his entire forces special rules.

Scout... why? Again... a dreadnaught that could scout? Little too cheese.


----------



## Dagmire

Looks about right from what i hear


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I asked James Swallow about the pushback on the books and this is what he said :


James Swallow said:


> Hammer & Anvil was pushed back to incorporate some new material (*not* Sisters of Battle stuff, I hasten to add) being developed by GW games development.
> Faith & Fire is being re-released because the last edition of the novel is out of print and currently no longer available in most bookstores. It won't have anything new in it, it's just a reprint.
> The schedule changes have nothing to do with future plans (if there are any) for a new Sisters of Battle codex.


He seems to deny that there are any plans for a new SoB codex and that the new material that is being incorporated into Hammer & Anvil is SoB related.
Hammer & Anvil is about the Sisters return to Sanctuary 101 which was destroyed by the Necrons, since the next codex after GK is rumoured to be the Necrons there might be some new Necron stuff in it.
Then again the way he denies that there is a SoB codex in the works makes me question if he's just saying what he has been told to say.
I'm probably just reading in between the lines crosseyed and without glasses (got shitty eyesight).


----------



## Azezel

It seems very likely to be Necron related.

And, at least on the UK site the Immolator is £20.50 - the same price it's been since the VAT rise, before that it was £20.00 which is the same as a Rhino or Razorback used to be.


----------



## boreas

I don't really like this "d3 rumors", I must say... Random stuff like like is never good. You end up paying points as if you always rolled 5 or 6. If you plan your strategy around getting at least 2 units, you'll always roll 1 or 2! If you don't plan around this ability, then you don't even need this in the first place.

So, not bad, but not exciting overall. It's still a drop of water in the rumor-desert!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> It seems very likely to be Necron related.
> 
> And, at least on the UK site the Immolator is £20.50 - the same price it's been since the VAT rise, before that it was £20.00 which is the same as a Rhino or Razorback used to be.


I asked him about it and this is what he said :



MadCowCrazy said:


> New Material?
> We do know that the Necron codex is the next one to be released after the Grey Knights and since Hammer & Anvil is about the Sisters return to Sanctuary 101 where the Imperium first encountered the Necrons, would it be safe to assume that some lore, fluff or even units from the new Necron codex might make it's way into the book?


 Subject: Re: Hammer & Anvil, Faith & Fire
You could assume that. I couldn't possibly comment...


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Then again the way he denies that there is a SoB codex in the works makes me question if he's just saying what he has been told to say.


I can't put enough emphasise on the fact that GW don't tie in new codexes/army books with BL releases,
they have tried it way back in the past and every single time they made an attempt it went completely tits up with deadlines on at least one side being missed, 
in fact it was a running joke in the old BL forums.


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> Source
> 
> What do you people think?


Could be interesting. In contrast, this is how BoK described the Grand Master's D3 deal:


> The Grand Master gives out special abilities to GK units (Not USRs) We are talking weapon upgrades and minor wargear bonuses.
> 
> Grand Masters give D3 special powers to Grey Knight units. Things like Digital Weapons, Master Crafted weapons, Wolf Standard, but with GK names.


----------



## GrizBe

BoK's usually rubbished though by the trusted rumour merchants, soo I'd still not believe anything he says.


----------



## Dagmire

BoK is wrong on this.


----------



## boreas

So, we're still not fixed on what it does, but the d3 "abilities/wargear/something-grey-and-knightly" is quite probably in?

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> BoK is wrong on this.


Would you care to actually explain why or how? :/


----------



## Dagmire

4 abilites
re roll 1s to wound
counter attack
scout
and makes a unit a scorign troop


----------



## boreas

Do we roll for the d3 units and then roll for an ability or can we choose the ability. If we roll for both, this is really not that good. You'd think a GKGM could plan his thing a bit better 

Phil


----------



## Azezel

This's been posted as a supposedly authentic army list. I've never heard of the poster, though.



Marshal Augustine said:


> Special Characters:
> Lord "Draigo" LR cost.
> Grand Master "Mordrack" Storm Raven Cost
> Brother Captain Stern
> Castellan Crowe
> 
> HQ/
> Grand Master
> Brother Captain
> Brotherhood Champion
> Librarian
> Inquisitor Corteaz
> Inquisitor Karamazov
> Inquisitor Valeria
> Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
> Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
> Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> 
> Elites/
> Techmarine
> Purifier Squad
> Venerable Dreadnought
> Paladin Squad
> Callidus
> Eversor
> Vindicare
> Culexus
> Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
> 
> Troops/
> Grey Knight Terminator Squad
> Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
> Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
> 
> Transports:
> Rhino
> Razorback
> Chimera
> 
> Fast/
> StormRaven
> 
> Heavy Support/
> Purgation Squad
> Dreadnought
> Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
> Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)


Note Inquisitors from all three Ordos, apparantly each offers different wargear. Valeria is probably Ordo Xenos - or so I assume. I wonder if Karamazov still has the Armchair of Ultimate Destruction.

If Hereticus Inquisitors are in this book, dare we hope that they won't be in the Sisters' book?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> This's been posted as a supposedly authentic army list.


I haven't seen the codex yet, well at least not inside,
but I can state that there are at least 3 bits on this "authentic" list that are as authentic as a red herring


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> 4 abilites
> re roll 1s to wound
> counter attack
> scout
> and makes a unit a scorign troop


So you're telling me that the only reason why BoK would be wrong is because you like that other rumor better?


----------



## boreas

If that is true, I will fall to my knees and cry tears of joy... All Inquisitors? my, yeas, YES! Techmarines? I LOVE those dudes and I've got a very well painted one! LR Redeemer? Was kind of a given but still, I'm painting mine right now.

Yeah, rumors!!!

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Bindi Baji said:


> I haven't seen the codex yet, well at least not inside,
> but I can state that there are at least 3 bits on this "authentic" list that are as authentic as a red herring


Would one of those bits be the Stormraven all on its lonesome there in FA?


----------



## Vhalyar

More from the same guy



> Wargear that has been listed that rules are unknown:
> 
> Psyke-out grenades.
> Brotherhood Banner (terminator and paladin squads)
> 
> Paladins = 2 wounded terminators (they can have an apothecary in the squad)
> 
> Purifiers = Grey Knights that have a lot of anti horde options, they are the ones with the power that will do a wound on every engaged enemy model in cc on 4+.





> No drop pod. But GK strike squads are supposed to be able to take personal teleporters. This makes them jump infantry. And once per game it is rumored to allow them to make a 30" move, just move... not a on table deep strike. they Can shoot when they do this, but not charge.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Azezel said:


> This's been posted as a supposedly authentic army list. I've never heard of the poster, though.


No disrespect to the guy, but probably means that we should take with the normal pinch of salt.

However considering this is meant to be a GK codex, I am a little bit dubious that Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors would re rearing their heads.:shok:

I also had been led to beleive that GK wont be getting access to Rhino/Rhino Based tanks, which to be honest I prefer. However it has been mentioned that LRs will be dedicated transports as they are for BA and that they also can deepstrike.

He backs up the rumour that StormRavens are FA k: although it surprises me there is only one mentioned FA choice.

Also, Odds of the Venerable Dreadnoughts being a libarian dread like with BA? also libarians as HQ choices? seems a bit odd to have a seperate libarian when the entire chapter are psykers.........


----------



## Vhalyar

OrdoMalleus said:


> No disrespect to the guy, but probably means that we should take with the normal pinch of salt.


Apparently he was a good rumor contributor for the Dark Eldar, so there's that at least.


----------



## boreas

I wouldn't be suprised by Rhino chassis. First, they are cash-cows for GW and second FW has nice kits to sell  As for the librarian, although every GK is a psykers, someone still has to train them (as well as keep all records).

Also, the "wound on 4+ "power is now rumored as every engaged models instead of btb. That would make a big difference against hordes. I wonder what will be the real thing!

That means that copies are possibly circulating. Although I'll quite obviously buy the real thing, it means we'll be able to access digital copies soon...

Hey, no Stern?

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

boreas said:


> Hey, no Stern?


Read it again, here's right in the first paragraph


----------



## Azezel

OrdoMalleus said:


> However considering this is meant to be a GK codex, I am a little bit dubious that Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors would re rearing their heads.:shok:



It was rumoured that the 'dex would cover the other Inquisitorial Ordos in some manner, though no-one ever said how.

I am more skeptical about the single FA and rhino/razorback.


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm.. i'd defiantely call BS on the other inquisitor groups being in there... this is Codex Grey Knights afterall, not Codex Inquisition. 

Other then that... it seems plausible.


----------



## boreas

WEll, from BoLS' Bigred in December



> 3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.


and from BoK aldo in December



> Their are three special character Inquisitors at least one will make Henchman Troop choices.


Still, pinches of salt, I know!

Phil

ps How could I miss Stern? :sarcastichand:

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Still from the same person:



> Ok where to start?
> 
> I have not heard or seen anything relating to weapons/wargear yet. So no dice on that one.
> 
> The assassins have one singular "fluff" entry, that states their generic rules... 6+ FNP, Dodge Save etc... and then one page with the rules for each one (i think) stating wargear and rules.* I do not believe they take up a slot.*
> 
> Inquisitors are about the cost of a current GK.
> 
> Nemesis force weapons ( I have no idea)... units are armed with nemesis swords. And units can upgrade any models to have force halberds at xpoints. the Halberd I believe adds 1 Initiative.
> 
> No libby dread. But all GK vehicles are phykers... their go to power is to "cure" shaken or stunned at the start of a GK turn.
> 
> Dreadknight:
> t7 w4 2+sv/ 4+inv with lots of weapon upgrades including the heavy psycannon and super incinerator.





> _*Dreadknight cost of vendetta:*_
> MC, Dreadknight armour as armour (deepstrike 2+sv/4++) So im assuming he is a buffed up terminator Mephyston style. Can be given a personal teleporter (making him jump infantry and move up to 30" once per game for about the cost of a Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoon)..
> S7 WS 5





> 3A and 2 CC.


I really hope that the "assasins don't take a slot" thing turns out to be true, because the Elite slot is already bloated. And Dreadknights at 130 points a pop, neat.


----------



## GrizBe

Okay, not sure how much stuff to believe from this guy, but some of the people in the know seem to say he's semi reliable... sooo....

If the DK stuffs true, I think I'll defiantely be taking one.. simply as it sounds like it'll be a badass model when we get one for it. 

Assasins not taking a slot? That sounds plausable given that GK's are meant to have a different force organisation chart to normal marines... Probably have to take an Inquisitor to take one though, then your limited to how many you can take I'm guessing.


Edit: Is there any word on just what new models we're going to see at launch? Appart from the obvious squad boxes of PA and TA.


----------



## Irbian

I imagine the dreadknight as a warjack


----------



## Vhalyar

And still going, this time about the henchmen



> No restrictions of that nature when it comes to the henchmen.
> 
> The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
> ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
> Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
> Crusader- PW, SShield
> Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
> DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
> Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
> WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
> 1- no effect
> 2- +12" to the range of all guns
> 3- armoursaves improved by one
> 4- all shooting weapons are rending.
> 5- all models gain 5+ invul
> 6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
> Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
> Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
> WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt.





> that would be them Jokaero Weaponsmiths.


----------



## Dagmire

Vhalyar said:


> So you're telling me that the only reason why BoK would be wrong is because you like that other rumor better?


I am telling you this cos i have ****** *** *****


----------



## boreas

Man will you be flooded with PMs or what!

As for the rumors...

NERDGASM.

Right, now, I'm at works and customers are wondering why the pharmacist is praising the Almighty Emperor...

Phil


----------



## Dagmire

Not sure how much i can give away yet as i am sworn to secrecy.
How ever I am pushing to be allowed to scoop everyone.
Assassins are I 7 and DO have the 6+ FNP given to them by sinthskin. all 4 assassins are in and cost more then they did.
Evesor has a power claw and his pistol wounds on 2+

caladus causes d6 s4 ap2 wounds when she turns up
I could go on but i wont push my luck......


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> Not sure how much i can give away yet as i am sworn to secrecy.
> How ever I am pushing to be allowed to scoop everyone.
> Assassins are I 7 and DO have the 6+ FNP given to them by sinthskin. all 4 assassins are in and cost more then they did.
> Evesor has a power claw and his pistol wounds on 2+
> 
> caladus causes d6 s4 ap2 wounds when she turns up
> I could go on but i wont push my luck......


Try scooping things that have not already been posted though 



> The inquisitors are one statline. The different options are just wargear and upgrades that fit their role.
> 
> No wargear rules.
> 
> Special rules
> 
> ATSKNF
> Combat Squads
> Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test) Units within 12" of a GK dreadnought targetted by powers psyker is at -4 "reinforced aegis"


Damn, Dreadnoughts have a pretty nasty anti-psyker aura. I guess that's one way of making sure that both Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights can compete.


----------



## GrizBe

Quick, let us hurry to the IP tracing address sites to track down Dagmire and go drag that codex from him!

To the Stormravens!

*GK symbol spins accorss the forum*


----------



## Irbian

Just one question quagmire  only one FA option?


----------



## Dagmire

@ Vhalyar
3 named inquisitors Valeria,coteaz and karamazov. Coteaz is a daemon hunter inq, kara is the witch hunter and val is the xenos inq. They are armed acordingly.
Deamon hosts are in as henchmen as are death cult assassins and psykers.
An inquisitor (not sure if its named or not) takes 3-12 henchmen

8 8 4 4 2 7 4 10 4+ Assassin stat line.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!


----------



## Dagmire

1 fast attack option. the storm raven. cost 205 points ???? not sure why.

Only 2 troop choices and they are not IST


----------



## boreas

> THE DREADKNIGHT
> WS5 S7 T7 W4 A3 2+/ 4++ 2 CCW ...with lots of weapon upgrades including the heavy psycannon and super incinerator.


Nice... that dude will be able to go against most Nids MC like trygons and such with relative ease.

Storm Raven at 205 pts: maybe Skies of Blood was changed to something even better?

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> @ Vhalyar
> 3 named inquisitors Valeria,coteaz and karamazov. Coteaz is a daemon hunter inq, kara is the witch hunter and val is the xenos inq. They are armed acordingly.
> Deamon hosts are in as henchmen as are death cult assassins and psykers.
> An inquisitor (not sure if its named or not) takes 3-12 henchmen
> 
> 8 8 4 4 2 7 4 10 4+ Assassin stat line.
> 
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it!


Cheerio, for the assasin stat line. Everything else was already posted 

Still from Marshal Augustine...


> Gk
> 
> 44441418 3+ at 1/5 of 100pts each.
> 
> Termies
> 44441429 terminator armour. 200pts for 5...
> 
> Paladins are Ws5


----------



## Dagmire

inq names were posted where?


----------



## Dagmire

Lord Kaldor Draigo 275 points
7 6 5 5 4 5 4 10 2+
Lord of titan: Pladin squads are troops
armed with the titan sword and SS as well as SB
Frag, krak and psyk-out nades
3 psykic powers, Hamerhand, psyckic comunion and sactified flame

Was it mentioned that GK have PE against Deamons??

Storm raven has shadow skies: same and the blood angles one but squads with personal homes dont scatter


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> inq names were posted where?


Right here. And just to be clear, I'm not picking a fight at all; I'm just saying that it might be a good idea to look for what Marshal Augustine already said and go for what he didn't. Like that Lord Kaldor Draigo statline


----------



## boreas

Well, that is not only new, it's wonderfull! Thanks man!!!
Phil


----------



## soulreaver296

Sorry Dagmire, but i gotta ask... anything on Bro-Cap Stern?


----------



## Dynamike

Awesome news on all of this and it is sooooo good to finally get rumours on a more regular basis.

275 points makes for a big pricey special character. People often have problems making them worth their points on the battlefield. I wonder if it will be better with this one. Obviously making paladins troops sounds like a good start towards that.


----------



## Vhalyar

Hopefully Draigo's rules are up to snuff, because from a statline point of view he's weaker than Mephiston and costs 25 more points.

And one more from Marshal


> Well for the base cost of 100pts you get 4 GK and a justicar. 2A and Ld9.
> 
> Basic Power is Hammerhand (+1 str in cc)
> 
> Also have warp quake. Any deepstriking unit that ends up within 12" of any GK strike unit will mishap. Also makes enemy teleport homers and beacons stop working.
> 
> IMO a 20pts space marine with a storm bolter (and whatever the force weapon is) is aweseome! and a lot cheaper than they used to be...


It's getting hard to track now.


----------



## soulreaver296

Well, he does make super-naters (paladins) troops, has a 3++ save, has a sword that does who knows what, and powers that do who knows what. MY concern with him is thats alot of points in a single character, with no mention of eternal warrior as of yet (may i stand corrected?). Still, it would just be ID weapons and s10 weapons to worry about, but still


----------



## Vhalyar

And still unloading rumors:


> Storm Raven is 5pts more than BA counterpart. But has psy power that allows it to ignore shaken and stunned.





> also a lot of units can be upgraded with psybolt ammunition. Whatever that is... 20pts for the entire unit of GK's





> Purgation Squads are HS... their special psypower is being able to shoot at units out of LOS.
> 
> And they have a lot of guns.





> The terminator upgrade character special rule "i shall not yield" basically a 4+ WWB for the character.





> purgation... same as before... 4 weapons, 20pt psycannon, free incinerators, and psilencers (whatever those are)
> Cost of GK unit as they are GK's, just with weapons.





> The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.


----------



## boreas

More!


> callidus- 145
> eversor- 130
> culexus-135
> vindicare- 145


Genral GK rules:



> 1- ATSKNF
> - Combat Squads
> - The Aegis
> - Psyker Pilots
> - Brotherhood of psykers
> - Psyker Mastery Levels
> - Preferred Enemy Deamons





> Draigo is a GK Grandmaster and is very nasty. (Eternal, t5, 5 attacks, psyker mastery 2, strength 10 sword vs daemons/psykers


Psychic power?


> -Squad granted initiative 10
> -Jaws like power which removes models from play without any save. template vs line, but no MC modifier for initiative
> -selected (friendly?) unit is grabbed and brought near libby with deep strike rules
> -Power which makes units within certain range take difficult/dangerous terrain test.


Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

PHEEEWWW, Ive added all the rumours from warseer to the first page.

Some stuff were not listed here so for a complete run down of what's there atm take a look at this.


Marshal Augustine said:


> Ok where to start?
> 
> I have not heard or seen anything relating to weapons/wargear yet. So no dice on that one.
> 
> The assassins have one singular "fluff" entry, that states their generic rules... 6+ FNP, Dodge Save etc... and then one page with the rules for each one (i think) stating wargear and rules. I do not believe they take up a slot.
> 
> Inquisitors are about the cost of a current GK.
> 
> Nemesis force weapons ( I have no idea)... units are armed with nemesis swords. And units can upgrade any models to have force halberds at xpoints. the Halberd I believe adds 1 Initiative.
> 
> No libby dread. But all GK vehicles are phykers... their go to power is to "cure" shaken or stunned at the start of a GK turn.
> 
> Dreadknight:
> t7 w4 2+sv/ 4+inv with lots of weapon upgrades including the heavy psycannon and super incinerator.
> Dreadknight cost of vendetta:
> MC, Dreadknight armour as armour (deepstrike 2+sv/4++) So im assuming he is a buffed up terminator Mephyston style. Can be given a personal teleporter (making him jump infantry and move up to 30" once per game for about the cost of a Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoon)..
> S7 WS 5
> Quote:
> 3A and 2 CC.
> 
> No restrictions of that nature when it comes to the henchmen.
> 
> The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
> ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
> Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
> Crusader- PW, SShield
> Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
> DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
> Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
> WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
> 1- no effect
> 2- +12" to the range of all guns
> 3- armoursaves improved by one
> 4- all shooting weapons are rending.
> 5- all models gain 5+ invul
> 6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
> Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
> Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
> WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt.
> 
> The inquisitors are one statline. The different options are just wargear and upgrades that fit their role.
> 
> No wargear rules.
> 
> Special rules
> 
> ATSKNF
> Combat Squads
> Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test) Units within 12" of a GK dreadnought targetted by powers psyker is at -4 "reinforced aegis"
> 
> Gk
> 44441418 3+ at 1/5 of 100pts each.
> Termies
> 44441429 terminator armour. 200pts for 5...
> Paladins are Ws5
> No shrouding. As far as I know... but now GK's can have rhinos and razorbacks.
> No stormtroopers as far as I know.
> Well for the base cost of 100pts you get 4 GK and a justicar. 2A and Ld9.
> Basic Power is Hammerhand (+1 str in cc)
> Also have warp quake. Any deepstriking unit that ends up within 12" of any GK strike unit will mishap. Also makes enemy teleport homers and beacons stop working.
> Paladins 55pts
> apoth + 75. min squad size of 1.
> GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.
> IMO a 20pts space marine with a storm bolter (and whatever the force weapon is) is aweseome! and a lot cheaper than they used to be...
> Perils of the Warp : The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.
> 1. Any army-wide GK special rules?
> 2. What's the stat-line of an inquisitor?
> 3. How is the anti-tank looking in this codex?
> 1- ATSKNF
> - Combat Squads
> - The Aegis
> - Psyker Pilots
> - Brotherhood of psykers
> - Psyker Mastery Levels
> - Preferred Enemy Deamons
> 2. 443334310 4+ Stubborn, IC. (25pts)
> 3. So far i don't know... other than the inquisitorial henchmen mobs, and the dreadnoughts/landraiders/stormravens. Squad based AT seems limited.
> 
> Yes, paladins are indeed 2 wounded terminator armour greyknights. With allocation (thanks to wargear) they will be a tough unit... and for +15 points over a regular terminator! yes please... and the grand master can make them scoring oh yes!.
> No gizmos to re roll saves... although there are these "brotherhood banners" for units.. so who knows maybe a re roll all ones a la spacewolf?
> Paladin Options:
> Force Halberds
> Nemesis Deamon Hammers
> Pair of Nemesis Falcions
> Nemesis Warding Stave
> Psycannon
> Incinerators
> Psylencers
> Apothecary
> Banner of Brotherhood
> Entire unit can have psybolt ammunition
> Any model can make any weapon Master Crafted at +5 pts per weapon.
> 
> Ok time for more:
> GK psypowers:
> Smite- See C:SM
> 
> Quicksilver- Begining of own movement. Unit within 6" gains I 10 till end of turn.
> 
> Warp-Rift- Flamer Template JOTWW
> 
> Might of Titan- Beggining of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand (yes, that means that S6 2D6 armour pen GK's is a go!..)
> 
> The Shrouding- Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" benefit from stealth. And have 6+ cover even if in the open (so 5+ in the open and 3+ in most other cases)
> 
> Mind Blades- Start of any assault phase. Pick enemy unit within 6", they loose 1 toughness for the remainder of the assault.
> 
> Vortex of Doom- see C:SM
> 
> Sanctuary- Any enemy assault phase. Enemy units assaulting any GK unit within 12" of the librarian treat all terrain (including open ground) and difficult and dangerous terrain.
> 
> The Summoning- Librarian movement. Pick a friendly non vehicle unit. Place them within 6" of the librarian using the DS rules.
> 
> oh wait, more you say!:
> 
> Librarian (mastery level 2) 150pts Can upgrade to level 3 for +50: each level is number of powers you can use per turn.
> Each purchased power is +5 pts, but he comes with hammerhand for free.
> 
> GK Grand Master Powers (level1)
> Hammerhand
> Psychic communion - take test, if successfull GK player can modify reserve rolls by +1 or -1 and you can choose to modify after each roll.
> 
> Brother Captain (level 1)
> Same
> 
> Brotherhood Champion (level 1)
> Hammerhand
> Heroic Sacrifice- during either players assault phase, when the "chaplain" is taken off as a casualty. Is passed, make one attack against any one model that he was in B2B with. If the attack hits, the model is also removed as a casualty with no saves... if the attack misses then no effect. Remember he is WS 7...
> 
> Terminators-
> Hammerhand
> 
> Strike Squads-
> Hammerhand
> Warp Quake- Start of GK movement phase, lasts till GK start of next movement. All enemy teleport homers stop working, any enemy unit that deep strikes within 12" of the strike squad will suffer a mishap.
> 
> Purgation Squads-
> HH
> Astral Aim- Shooting Phase, unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range regardless of LOS. Target automatically gains 4+ cover that can't be modified.
> 
> Paladins:
> HH
> Holocaust- 12" Str5 Ap- Large Blast
> 
> Purifier Squad:
> HH
> Cleansing Flame- Start of the assault in any player turn. All enemy -models- that are a part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
> 
> Techmarine (mastery 1)
> HH
> Reconstruction- Start of TM movement, may re roll any repair roll.
> 
> Rhino-Razorback/
> Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
> 
> Dreadknight-
> HH
> Holocaust
> 
> Dreadnoughts-
> Fortitude (see rhino)
> 
> Land Raiders-
> Fortitude (ibid)
> 
> Storm Raven same...
> 
> Brother Captain Stern Level 2:
> HH
> Communion
> Zone of Banishment: During his assault phase. All models friend and foe, within D6" (not stern), must take a strength test or be dragged into the warp... deamons re roll successful tests. These casualties do not count towards combat.
> 
> Castellan Crowe Level 1:
> HH
> Heroic Sacrifice
> Cleansing Flame
> 
> Inquisitors are not psykers.
> 
> Inquisitor Corteaz (100pts) Mastery 2:
> HH
> Sanctuary
> Mind Blades
> 
> There, thats all I have.
> 
> What happens when a vehicle gets peril? : glancing hit.
> As far as I know no bonuses. But there might be some crazy wargear... then again I dont have any info on the gear.
> No storm shields that I know of.
> 
> Holocaust. And hammerhand (holocaust is s5 large blast at 12" weapon).
> 
> also, almost entire army has preferred enemy "deamons"
> 
> Storm Raven is 5pts more than BA counterpart. But has psy power that allows it to ignore shaken and stunned.
> 
> also a lot of units can be upgraded with psybolt ammunition. Whatever that is... 20pts for the entire unit of GK's
> 
> Purgation Squads are HS... their special psypower is being able to shoot at units out of LOS.
> 
> And they have a lot of guns.
> 
> The terminator upgrade character special rule "i shall not yield" basically a 4+ WWB for the character.
> 
> purgation... same as before... 4 weapons, 20pt psycannon, free incinerators, and psilencers (whatever those are)
> Cost of GK unit as they are GK's, just with weapons.
> 
> The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.
> 
> callidus- 145
> eversor- 130
> culexus-135
> vindicare- 145
> 
> Genral GK rules:
> 1- ATSKNF
> - Combat Squads
> - The Aegis
> - Psyker Pilots
> - Brotherhood of psykers
> - Psyker Mastery Levels
> - Preferred Enemy Deamons
> 
> Draigo is a GK Grandmaster and is very nasty. (Eternal, t5, 5 attacks, psyker mastery 2, strength 10 sword vs daemons/psykers
> Psychic power?
> 
> -Squad granted initiative 10
> -Jaws like power which removes models from play without any save. template vs line, but no MC modifier for initiative
> -selected (friendly?) unit is grabbed and brought near libby with deep strike rules
> -Power which makes units within certain range take difficult/dangerous terrain test.


----------



## GrizBe

Holy Emperor... if all of that is true..... :shok:


----------



## Dagmire

I am in talks at the moment to get the whole thing read out on our podcast (I am trying to get more traffic to it and am not ashamed)

I will say it again: Yes i am trying to get more traffic to our podcast.
How ever I like to think that you lot know what a huge fan of the Inqusition I am and know that I am not the type of guy to lie about having this dex.
To be fair it sounds like the other guy peopel have quoated has the same one as me.


----------



## OpTi

> purgation... same as before... 4 weapons, 20pt psycannon, free incinerators, and *psilencers* (whatever those are)


perhaps "psylance"? as in an AT lance weapon for pugation squads? i do hope so.


----------



## GrizBe

Psilancers... Purgations squads have that 'no los' rule... maybe its some sort of scout sniper rifle thing where you can set them up in cover and they can't be detected as they're using 'psilanced' weapons?


----------



## Dagmire

GrizBe said:


> Psilancers... Purgations squads have that 'no los' rule... maybe its some sort of scout sniper rifle thing where you can set them up in cover and they can't be detected as they're using 'psilanced' weapons?


_Astral Aim:
Little is hidden from the gaze of a Gray Knight Pugatation squad. Marshalling acient sorcerices they can project an astral image that guides their shots onto the propper target.

This power is usedduring the GK shooting phase. If the test is passed the unit (including any IC) can shoot at any enemy target within range reguardless of wether they have line of sight to it. The target automaticly has a 4+ cover save (that can not be modified by any means) against this attack

This power cant be used to target a unit embarked in a vech._

paraphrasing for most of that as i am copying it from a photo copy.
I know this has been mentioned but i thought the last bit was interesting.
Clears up any Doom of Malenti questions about wether you can shoot in to vechs.


----------



## Azezel

Again with the sorcery. That's a major divergence from established fluff.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> Again with the sorcery. That's a major divergence from established fluff.


Yeah, why should an army where every single member is a psyker be able to use sorcery?!?! Tha dun make no sense!

It has been said before but the GK codex might make an excellent Thousand Sons count as army!


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Yeah, why should an army where every single member is a psyker be able to use sorcery?!?! Tha dun make no sense!


I'm pretty sure that in 40k Sorcery is a term used to describe Psyk-ing performed by followers of Chaos, often augmented by the gifts of a patron god.


----------



## Irbian

any word on dreadnought wargear? I have two that I want to use!


----------



## GrizBe

Dreads I'm guessing will have a Dreadnaught Nemesis force CCW, and the heavy psycannon and incinerator options.


----------



## boreas

I love what I read. I wonder how many attacks a PAGK gets. They used to have 2, but now it's one. I wonder if they'll get some "true grit"? Getting to 1 attack would nerf them a lot in CC... Still, I love what I read!

Phil


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> They used to have 2, but now it's one. I wonder if they'll get some "true grit"?


...They used to have 1, and have True Grit with their Storm Bolters, not 2 attacks.


----------



## boreas

Winterous said:


> ...They used to have 1, and have True Grit with their Storm Bolters, not 2 attacks.


Still came to about the same though (2 attacks at all times, assaulting or not). Now, will they have 1 most of the time?


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> Still came to about the same though (2 attacks at all times, assaulting or not). Now, will they have 1 most of the time?


I imagine that either they'll have True Grit, or their Storm Bolters are used in a similar way to pistols.


----------



## Irbian

Hope they retain true grit!


----------



## Dagmire

*Dred info*



GrizBe said:


> Dreads I'm guessing will have a Dreadnaught Nemesis force CCW, and the heavy psycannon and incinerator options.




Dred info:
115 points
comes with MM and nemisis doomfist+ SB
smk launchers

psychic pilot
the aegis
reinforced aegis
PE- daeoms

Psy power: fortitude (belive it ignors shaken and stunned)

replace MM for twin linked, HF,HB,AC or plasma cannon/assult cannon or TL LC
replace Doomfist with: TL AC or ML

Extras:
serch light
psybolt ammo
psyflame ammo
warp stablisation field
true silver armour
extra armour


----------



## Dagmire

Irbian said:


> Hope they retain true grit!


No true grit, they have:
and they shall know no fear
brotherhood of psykers
the aegis
PE-daeoms
combat squad
deepstrike

power armour
nemisis force sword
SB
frag/krak,psyc-out nades


psy powers:
hammer hand (+1 s)
warp quake
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ normal guys sgt has plus 1 attack and LD
add upto 5 more guys for 20 points per model


We are doing a review about all this on the podcast tonight i believe.
It should be up on Weds


----------



## Irbian

You are a gentleman Dagmire (I cant give you more rep right now, but you award it!)

We need to know what do the nemesis force sword  but Im a little sad about the "only 1 attack" thing.

In another topic, Im not very much confortable with the "we are the best psykers" rules/fluff. Im more happy to chop enemies with large amount of attacks instead of psyk powers. But dont misunderstand me, Ill be more than happy to play them!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dagmire said:


> replace MM for twin linked, HF,HB,AC or plasma cannon/assult cannon or TL LC
> replace Doomfist with: TL AC or ML


So you are telling me I can get a Dreadnought with 2 Twin Linked Assault Cannons?!
HELL YEAH!!!

The only thing I like more than flamers in the game are spray and pray guns


----------



## Dagmire

Sorry that AC ment Auto cannon


----------



## Blueberrypop

If GK's get what Marshal Augustine said they are going to be major op.


----------



## Azezel

Says the _Space Wolf_ player...

Maybe we could delay the cries of 'beardy' until we know some points values and how accurate any of these rumours are?


----------



## GrizBe

Thing is that people forget, GK's are meant to be overpowered! They are the elite of the elite.


----------



## boreas

It's funny. Same as with the Nids dex, some players shout "OMG OP!!!1!ONE!". Other players shout "OMG what a mess GK won't be able to compete even agains Necrons ever!!!!1!!1111".

I, for one, can see strong build, fluffy themes and great modeling ahead. I think the "eliteness" of the GKs has been a bit overhyped in the past, and GW as been dealing with that problem. Many people tended to see them as head and shoulders above Astartes. I think this codex will disappoint some players by displaying GKs that are elite astartes, but not a whole different level.


Phil


----------



## Dagmire

Blueberrypop said:


> If GK's get what Marshal Augustine said they are going to be major op.


If thats how you feel then your going to be very upset come April


----------



## Blueberrypop

hence the use of "if", but if the points match the power I won't have any problems.


----------



## Dynamike

I don't think the GK will be OP. There is a lot of changes necessary as their current codex is definitly under par with other updated or even with some 4th ed. codex. 

What is to note is that they will definitly be different and sometimes may seem over powered because of it but with the GKs, they always had a higher point cost to balance their bonuses. 

On another subject, with the units rumored so far, it seems that we won't have to go through a dilution of the fluff and we will still be able to have a very rich army with a lot of different "fluffy" builds. Of course, the rules and options being brought up to par will surely help not having to hope for a draw when you bring them on the table! :victory:

Also a new tiny bit on henchman from warseer:



> Warrior acolyte:
> 
> replace laspistol and chainsword with one of...
> bolt gun
> storm bolter
> hot shot lasgun
> combi weapon
> power sword/or plasma pistol
> storm shield
> power fist
> 
> Any can have....
> carapace
> power armor
> meltabombs


----------



## bhsman

Would your copy say who wrote the codex, Dagmire?


----------



## GrizBe

soo.. Warrior acolyte, with power armour, and a storm bolter.... That would be more grey knights then?


----------



## Irbian

Dont forget the power weapon!  they could count as neophytes  something I miss in the GK codex

what do you people think? must we expect a henchmen box?

for the moment, the henchmen and the dreadknight are what call me to this codex. I dont want shiny marines


----------



## bhsman

Too bad the Acolytes are rumored to be BS3.


----------



## boreas

Well, to be fair, Grey knight must not be shiny... I plan to do mine... gray (instead of silver)!

Phil


----------



## Irbian

¬¬ ok, grey marines, better now? 

Only 2 months more to see pictures ^^ yay!


----------



## GrizBe

Well going by the darker GK Stormraven on the back of the SR box, GK's have gotten a darker colour scheme... soo, we'l just have to wait and see.


----------



## Hurricane

*The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
Crusader- PW, SShield
Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
1- no effect
2- +12" to the range of all guns
3- armoursaves improved by one
4- all shooting weapons are rending.
5- all models gain 5+ invul
6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt. *

Anyone else looking forward to this unit a ton? If the rumors are true and this does not take up an elite slot I can imagine sooo many combos. A ranged unit combining servitors, weaponsmiths and warrior acolytes for expendable bodies sounds very, very nice. I'm very curious as to the point cost of each of these however. That will determine how "effective" they actually are.


----------



## Dagmire

Sasha Nein said:


> *The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
> ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
> Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
> Crusader- PW, SShield
> Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
> DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
> Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
> WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
> 1- no effect
> 2- +12" to the range of all guns
> 3- armoursaves improved by one
> 4- all shooting weapons are rending.
> 5- all models gain 5+ invul
> 6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
> Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
> Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
> WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt. *
> 
> Anyone else looking forward to this unit a ton? If the rumors are true and this does not take up an elite slot I can imagine sooo many combos. A ranged unit combining servitors, weaponsmiths and warrior acolytes for expendable bodies sounds very, very nice. I'm very curious as to the point cost of each of these however. That will determine how "effective" they actually are.


Mentioned this group quite alot on the podcast tonight guys. it comes out on weds. I am sure more info will be "leaked" by then but take a listen as I believe we mention alot that is not known.
Follow the link in my sig.

I will post more tommorow 

PS the weaponsmiths are the Jokaero


----------



## CardShark

I would just like to be the one to say this ....... oooooo big thread....


----------



## Azezel

This? Pffft...

I was there, man. I was part of the original RPG.net Motivational Posters thread. 37'000 posts. Thirtyseven thousand. Most of them with images. _That_ was a forum thread, my boy.


----------



## boreas

I think the proper spelling would then be "me boy"  One day, when Codex: Sisters of Battle comes out, I will miss this thread. It's like my local pub, now 

Anyone nows if we'll finally get a GK decal sheet?

Phil


----------



## Catpain Rich

Dagmire said:


> PS the weaponsmiths are the Jokaero


If they make Jokaero models I will literally assault people to get to gamesworkshop and buy them all.


----------



## Winterous

Catpain Rich said:


> If they make Jokaero models I will literally assault people to get to gamesworkshop and buy them all.


A fan of the tech-monkeys are we?


----------



## Dagmire

they come with defence orbs, so they dont have to do any fighting


----------



## Winterous

Dagmire said:


> they come with defence orbs, so they dont have to do any fighting


...Are you telling me that they cannot be engaged in Close Combat, or that they have robots to fight in CC for them?
Either way, TECH-MONKEYS FTW!


----------



## Irbian

someone has listened the podcast? english isnt my first language and is a mess for me listen the whole thing

no offense Dragmire


----------



## OpTi

Irbian said:


> someone has listened the podcast? english isnt my first language and is a mess for me listen the whole thing
> 
> no offense Dragmire


considering it hasn't been released yet... no


----------



## Irbian

I thinked It was, I readed too fast Dragmire post


----------



## OpTi

well i'm sure someone will post up a summary for ya bud if not i might do it.


----------



## soulreaver296

So lets take a step back. From whats been said, there appears to be a copy of the army-list section of the codex, out there, in some people's hands. IF it is true, how much change might there be between that, and the final codex? when did we first get SOLID rumors for DE, that went beyond givens (Warriors are in the codex!)?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

soulreaver296 said:


> So lets take a step back. From whats been said, there appears to be a copy of the army-list section of the codex, out there, in some people's hands. IF it is true, how much change might there be between that, and the final codex? when did we first get SOLID rumors for DE, that went beyond givens (Warriors are in the codex!)?


Well, the first solid info came from Games Day, so 2-3 months before release. There were allot of small bits before that that proved to be accurate as well.

Basically what we are seeing now can be compared to what happened during Games Day, a flood of new info pouring out. The difference is that everything from Games Day was based on actual information whilst this is based on some codex part of some sort.
There was allot of info before games day that was accurate as well like poison weapons all around and things like that.

So all in all? I'd say allot of this is probably accurate but we dont know where this information is from, could be a very old playtest list that someone found in a garbage can outside GWs HQ or it could be some sort of fandex listing that someone left around to mess with people who found it.

Either way I'd treat everything as rumours because until we actually have the codex in hand that's just what it is. Some really interesting ones though


----------



## Azezel

More news about Karamazov.

He _does_ have the comfy chair (still no soft cussion), but he is _not_ a monstrous creature. S5, T5 with four attacks and 2+ Armour save, Mastercrafted power sword and relenntless multimelta. No Invulnerable save. IC, but cannot enter transports.

Big news is, he has an orbital bombardment that he can place over friendly units, because that's just how he rolls.

Tie up the enemies with a mob of worthless bastards, then drop a pie plate over the lot of them.


----------



## Dagmire

Librarian psychic powers
Smite
Quicksilver
warp rift
Might of titan
the shoruding
Mind blades
Vortex of doom
sancturary
the summoning


----------



## Dagmire

Azezel said:


> More news about Karamazov.
> 
> He _does_ have the comfy chair (still no soft cussion), but he is _not_ a monstrous creature. S5, T5 with four attacks and 2+ Armour save, Mastercrafted power sword and relenntless multimelta. No Invulnerable save. IC, but cannot enter transports.
> 
> Big news is, he has an orbital bombardment that he can place over friendly units, because that's just how he rolls.
> 
> Tie up the enemies with a mob of worthless bastards, then drop a pie plate over the lot of them.


Has master crafted MM an MC Powersword. Frag/krack/psyk-out and Rad nades + orbital strike relay

4 4 5 5 4 4 3 10 2+

Dread Reputation: units within 12' re-roll moral and pinning tests

By any means necessary: you can choose to play the blast over a friendly model. If you do so the shot does not scatter


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

I love it!

You have been sacrificed in service to the Emperor! Good luck and all that! *BOOM*

I could def see me using Karamazov now haha.


----------



## Dagmire

Jokaero Weaponsmith
4 3 2 3 1 3 * 8 -
War gear: Digital wpn
Defence orb: 5++

Jokaero ingienuityigi wpns can fire as either LC, MM or HF. all models in the unit must fire the same (think chaos oblits)

If a unit contains 1 or more then you roll on chart and can get teh following
wpn max range increased by 12'

+1 to armour

all shots are rending

5++ to all in unit


----------



## Dagmire

Not sure if its been mentioned by Assassins are fleet now


----------



## Vhalyar

Neat, thanks. Pretty sure I'll have at least one Vindicare running around the battlefield. Do you have any information on *Grand Master Mordrack*? It's the only GK HQ we have not heard anything about.


----------



## Dagmire

200 points
6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
this is the guy that comes with ghosts as his body guard.
Deep stikes like drop pods do, first turn landings ect
and give teh D3 dice rolls to improve units


----------



## Tuatara

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> I love it!
> 
> You have been sacrificed in service to the Emperor! Good luck and all that! *BOOM*
> 
> I could def see me using Karamazov now haha.


Totally agree. I've always wanted to have the ability to bring down heavy fire on my own position. Not all the time of course. There are just times where it would be very handy. Same with firing on units that are in close combat with some of your units. The idea of sacrificing some of your own for the greater good is very Inquisitorial.


----------



## Vhalyar

Dagmire said:


> 200 points
> 6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
> this is the guy that comes with ghosts as his body guard.
> Deep stikes like drop pods do, first turn landings ect
> and give teh D3 dice rolls to improve units


So that's the sneaky termies guy :biggrin:
Should be interesting, thanks.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

> also a lot of units can be upgraded with psybolt ammunition. Whatever that is... 20pts for the entire unit of GK's


Well blessed ammunition ignores cover saves....Gk's generally have powers to ignore invulnerable saves.

Therefore, bolter ammo that ignores invul?

Just a guess from extrapolation, mind you.


----------



## CDAdair

Yay! This is going to be super bloody mega awesome, not to mention jolly. I'm hoping they make their close combat abilities more awesome, I'm also hoping more teleporter abilities will be added instead of adding jump marines. I don't personally think assault jumping grey knights will look very good with their armour. Their armour looks the best, especially the terminator armour.


----------



## Vhalyar

CDAdair said:


> Yay! This is going to be super bloody mega awesome, not to mention jolly. I'm hoping they make their close combat abilities more awesome, I'm also hoping more teleporter abilities will be added instead of adding jump marines. I don't personally think assault jumping grey knights will look very good with their armour. Their armour looks the best, especially the terminator armour.


Strike Squads and Dreadknights can equip Personal Teleporters, which are pretty much what you're thinkinh of.


> Personal Teleporter: Unit can move as though they have a jump pack. Once per game, the unit may move 30", but may not assault afterwards.


----------



## Azezel

Dagmire - it's worth asking, since you and everyone else who's posting rumours seem to have the same data, how confident are you in the acuracy of whatever your source is?

Is it an official preview or something someone found in the bins outside Warhammer World? Is there any chance that it could be a deliberate false leak?


----------



## firstandonly246

Well if someone did make it up, I want that guy working on the codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Well blessed ammunition ignores cover saves....Gk's generally have powers to ignore invulnerable saves.
> 
> Therefore, bolter ammo that ignores invul?
> 
> Just a guess from extrapolation, mind you.


Old codex made Psycannon Bolts AP4 and no Inv saves allowed vs them.

From what I understand there are 2 types of ammo now :
Psybolt and Psyflame.

Sisters have Blessed Ammo that Ignores cover saves but Psyflame sounds like it would do the exact same thing. I think it would really suck if Sisters lost their Blessed Ammo and GKs got it instead.
Then again it might do something else like wound psykers on 2+ or something like that.


----------



## Dagmire

It could all be bollox 
I belive this leak is a year old codex, so things will have changed.......
How ever it looks ligit so far, wont mention why but if its fake its the best i have seen

What i want to know is what are Psyk-out and rad granades???


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Old codex made Psycannon Bolts AP4 and no Inv saves allowed vs them.
> 
> From what I understand there are 2 types of ammo now :
> Psybolt and Psyflame.
> 
> Sisters have Blessed Ammo that Ignores cover saves but Psyflame sounds like it would do the exact same thing. I think it would really suck if Sisters lost their Blessed Ammo and GKs got it instead.
> Then again it might do something else like wound psykers on 2+ or something like that.


These rumours seem to have borrowed liberally from the Sisters in some ways - and I'm not talking about Friend Karamazov. Psybolts and Psiflame do sound like Blessed Ammo and Holly Promethium, also, rending everywhere and invulnerable saves. Also, Purification squads armed with multiple Flamers. Oh, and for the record, the sisters already have ammo that wounds Psykers on a 2+ - the power stake/stake crossbow.

However, I can live with that.

Preliminary mathhammer indicates that GK's army-wide psychic defense has been nerfed somewhat (-1 to the casters Ld, compared to the old Aegis Ld+d6 malarky). Also, despite _souding_ similar, I doubt that Psibolts/flame are actually the same as Blessed Ammo or Holy Promethium.


I have to say it, everything I've read in these GK rumours has made me more and more optimistic about the future sisters dex.

* All =][= sorts in codex:GK means they _don't_ have to be in Codex:SoB.
* A boatload of funky psi powers sets a good precident of Sisters having two boatloads of funky Acts of faith
* Basic GK got both cheaper and better - Sisters could get the same (though they aren't bad now).
* Blessed Ammo and Holy Promethium may be available to infantry (want that sooo much!)

All the same - probably best to leave that discussion for now - let the GK players have the spotlight 'till April.


----------



## soulreaver296

I'm taking a wild guess here, but rad MIGHT stand for radiation :wink:. In terms of usage? it could be an AoE effect grenade, like the holy orb of Antioch (codex:bt, i think?). possibly poison, maybe dangerous terrain? (I know radiation takes a LONG time to kill unless the amounts are staggering, but this is warhammer 40k, where staggering is everyday)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I think C:GK will give lots of hints as to what to expect from the Sisters codex.

If the ammo is anything to go by depending on what it actually does it might mean sisters can give an entire squad blessed ammo for 20pt as it currently is with the special ammo for GKs. Then again we have no idea what the GK ammo does, if it's the same as before I think it might be ridiculously op vs Daemon players since you can now give entire squads this stuff. Dont think you could do that in the old codex.

As for IST not being in the codex, you can pretty much make the exact same thing with those henchmen guys. You can give them bolters and lasguns basically turning them into IST with BS3 instead of 4.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> As for IST not being in the codex, you can pretty much make the exact same thing with those henchmen guys. You can give them bolters and lasguns basically turning them into IST with BS3 instead of 4.


I do hope you get access to proper Storm Troopers though, they're damn cool in the IG codex.
I guess the Inquisition prefer to requisition lots of newbies instead of a lesser number of fully trained ones


----------



## Kalshinko

Guess I posted this in the wrong spots first so here it is again, sorry if it repeats anything only looked at like the last 10 set of posts.

Storm Troopers are gone, venerable dreads are in.

Elites they are getting 2 wound terminators that have feel no pain. Called Paladins

They are getting a 4 wound monsterous creature at toughness 5.

LR and Stormravens will get blessed hulls for a buy up, not going to say how many points. What it does is negate the armor 12 for lance weapons, extra d6 for meltas, and the extra d6 for armor pen from monsterous creatures.

GK can be upgraded with a warp field, wich will make them fast attack and be able to move as jump infantry. So basically you can put 10 of them into a stormraven and they will be jump infantry wich seems a little OP.

Inquisitor can take 8 or 10 retnue cant remember, but he is still an IC so he can join a squad of GK. So basically you can have a squad of 10 GK with a Inquisitor and his retnue in one big squad. The downfall to this is all the ritnue are lower toughness than the GK so for shooting this could cause problems. If the are assaulted the Inquisitor can break off from the group with his ritnue and the run away or reassault the next turn.

Get libby Dreads

Libbys have a power that makes a squad -1 toughness, sounds like fun.

GK will lose there extra attack for having the storm bolter, but are upgraded to having 2 attacks base.

Again this isn't everything and I want to add not everything may be accurate. But I would say at least half of this we will see in the codex.Land Raider (Variants: Crusader, Redeemer. pp81-83, 142-143 C:SM 5th) 
Grey Knights (p6, p29 CH) 
Independent Character (p47 40k 5th)


----------



## GrizBe

Technically they will, only they're henchmen now, rather then a proper unit.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Only difference is they are BS3 and dont have those 3 special rules Storm Troops have.
Then again they will be the exact same as the IST but with BS3 instead of 4.

Kalshinkov, do you know what psyflame and psybolt ammo does?


----------



## Kalshinko

Well I know there are a bunch of versions of the codex out there, many with fake rules in it, really only the printers know what the Codex will actually be. So thats why I said everything may not be acurate.


----------



## exsulis

I was rereading the Mechanicus, and I was thinking of the Knights of Taranis as maybe the inspiration for the Dredknight.


----------



## Kalshinko

MadCowCrazy said:


> Only difference is they are BS3 and dont have those 3 special rules Storm Troops have.
> Then again they will be the exact same as the IST but with BS3 instead of 4.
> 
> Kalshinkov, do you know what psyflame and psybolt ammo does?


 
Psyflame is winds of chaos (template), Psybolt is strength 4 AP3.


----------



## Winterous

Kalshinko said:


> Psyflame is winds of chaos (template), Psybolt is strength 4 AP3.


So what, Psyflame ammo turns a FLAMER into Wind of Chaos?
Heavy Flamer? Only on vehicles?
That's brutal.

And wow, Psybolt ammo just turns Grey Knights into, well, the perfect Thousand Sons army!


----------



## Kalshinko

Psyflame = Winds of Chaos. Same exact everything, was the best way to explain it.

Or were you asking who can take them? I only got an hour with the codex version I saw so a lot has left me unforunately. Jogged my memory when the question came up.


----------



## Winterous

Kalshinko said:


> Psyflame = Winds of Chaos. Same exact everything, was the best way to explain it.
> 
> Or were you asking who can take them? I only got an hour with the codex version I saw so a lot has left me unforunately. Jogged my memory when the question came up.


What I mean is like, was it an UPGRADE for a weapon, like Pysbolts, or is it a weapon in and of itself?
And damn, too bad


----------



## Kalshinko

Good question, I could ask. But then they would be like why? Are you posting this, you promised you wouldnt. Then I would be in trouble......ect.


----------



## Katie Drake

Kalshinko said:


> Good question, I could ask. But then they would be like why? Are you posting this, you promised you wouldnt. Then I would be in trouble......ect.


That's exactly why I didn't post the majority of what I was shown. It's just easier.


----------



## Winterous

Kalshinko said:


> Good question, I could ask. But then they would be like why? Are you posting this, you promised you wouldnt. Then I would be in trouble......ect.


If you promised not to post this stuff on the internet, then why are you? :laugh:


----------



## rasolyo

Don't know if this'll get me into trouble either, but I also saw a leaked version of the Codex. Here goes:

- Dreadknights are S7 T7 MCs with 4 Wounds. They also have a teleport homer iirc, allowing a 30" jump move. They cost five points lower than half a Land Raider.

- Assassins are now WS 8 BS 8. Default wargear allows them a FNP equivalent but on a 6+ (or 5, don't quite remember).

- The Eversor loses the D6 attacks and gets Lightning Claw equivalents. He does not explode anymore when he dies.

- The Callidus now appears via Deep Strike rules but does not scatter. Choose a unit and she is placed 3" from that unit. The chosen unit sustains D6 S4 AP2 attacks when she appears. Neural shredder is still intact and does not affect vehicles. She costs 10 points more than an Exorcist tank.

- The Vindicare. His special ammo is not one-shot anymore. The Exitus rifle is now an AP 1 sniper rifle. Turbo-penetrators are now 4D6 Armour penetration. Shield breakers are the same. Hellfire rounds are still the same, except AP 5. New rules now state that the owning player gets to _allocate wounds caused by the Vindicare._ He also costs as much as an Exorcist.

As others have said, take it with some salt.


----------



## Winterous

rasolyo said:


> New rules now state that the owning player gets to _allocate wounds caused by the Vindicare._


He could always do that.

A lot of what you said is contrary to what other people have said (like Dreadknight being S/T7, others have said), so I think you've probably got an older copy.
Or a newer one, I guess.


----------



## Dagmire

Our podcast is up with everything iI felt like talkign about in reguards to the GKs

http://www.theoverlords.co.uk/podcast/

Enjoy


----------



## Kalshinko

Winterous said:


> If you promised not to post this stuff on the internet, then why are you? :laugh:


I am one of those people if you tell me not to do something well.....im gonna do it:grin:


----------



## rasolyo

Winterous said:


> He could always do that.


Just realized that allocating wounds and nominating a single target are the exact same thing.


----------



## GrizBe

*Listens to the Overlords Podcast* 

OMG!! SQUATS ARE HENCHMEN!!! :laugh:


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> *Listens to the Overlords Podcast*
> 
> OMG!! SQUATS ARE HENCHMEN!!! :laugh:


Qué?
Are they really, or is that a joke?


----------



## GrizBe

I'm guessing it's a joke, but it was just too funny to not share. lol.


----------



## GrizBe

Hey.. I was just wondering something.... We know that the Army book for Orcs and Goblins has become a hardback.... Is it possible that Codex: Grey Knights will be the first hardback 40 codex?


----------



## Winterous

GrizBe said:


> Hey.. I was just wondering something.... We know that the Army book for Orcs and Goblins has become a hardback.... Is it possible that Codex: Grey Knights will be the first hardback 40 codex?


That would be very very interesting...
I hope not though, paperback are easy to flip through to get to the page you want.

I think Fantasy codices (name?) are much larger, due to large amounts of wargear and magic, and... I dunno, haven't played it; so they're more suitable to hardback, as you can't really flip through them anyway, and large books put more strain on the spine, making the solid frame a welcome addition.


----------



## boreas

I don't really mind, as I never bring my real dex to gaming. Too much wear and tear. But for my "at home" copy, I think it would look pretty nice. It might also make it more durable than the SM dex...

Phil


----------



## rasolyo

Winterous said:


> That would be very very interesting...
> I hope not though, paperback are easy to flip through to get to the page you want.


The very reason why I only own the AoBR rulebook and not the complete hardback one. I'd have to lug that thing around for games. Though I confess I'd probably buy both if presented with a hardback and paperback option for my own army.


----------



## GrizBe

Well if we think that the O&G army book is 112 pages, then look at comparible codexs.. The SW one is 96, and the Nilla Marines one is 144. The DE one was 96 as well, as was BA...

Army books though, Ogres is only 80, Beastmen is 96, Skaven was another 112.

Now, if you bulk it out with some extra full colour heavy metal pages... its not too much of a stretch to see that its possible. All army/codex books could go hardback... it seems rather silly to do it as a one off.


----------



## MaidenManiac

New stuff!
Cred to [email protected] and the original source(s). OP found here



> Lots of stuff breaking all over the tubes regarding the upcomeing Grey Knights Codex. Here's the latest rumor dump:
> 
> 
> 
> via Warseer (and others)
> 
> Unit Breakdown
> Special Characters:
> Lord "Draigo" LR cost.
> Grand Master "Mordrack" Storm Raven Cost
> Brother Captain Stern
> Castellan Crowe
> 
> Inquisitor Corteaz
> Inquisitor Karamazov
> Inquisitor Valeria
> 
> HQ
> Grand Master
> Brother Captain
> Brotherhood Champion
> Librarian
> Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
> Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
> Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> 
> Elites
> Techmarine
> Purifier Squad
> Venerable Dreadnought
> Paladin Squad
> Callidus
> Eversor
> Vindicare
> Culexus
> Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
> 
> Troops
> Grey Knight Terminator Squad
> Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
> Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
> 
> Transports
> Rhino
> Razorback
> Chimera
> 
> Fast
> StormRaven
> 
> Heavy Support
> Purgation Squad
> Dreadnought
> Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
> Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)
> 
> Unit Notes
> Grand Master Rumors
> Pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
> Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
> Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
> Makes them have counter attack USR.
> Makes them Scout
> All these units are affected by the one choice.
> 
> No Drop Pods
> But GK strike squads are supposed to be able to take personal teleporters. This makes them jump infantry. And once per game it is rumored to allow them to make a 30" move, just move... not a on table deep strike. they Can shoot when they do this, but not charge.
> 
> Paladins: 2 wounded terminators (they can have an apothecary in the squad)
> 
> Purifiers: Grey Knights that have a lot of anti horde options, they are the ones with the power that will do a wound on every engaged enemy model in cc on 4+.
> 
> Terminators equipped with frag and krak grenades.
> 
> Psychic Powers
> Hammer Hand: +1 strength in Close Combat
> Warp Quake: Any deepstriking unit that lands within 12" suffers automatic mishap.
> Holocaust: S5 AP - Large Blast 12"
> Quicksilver: Unit becomes Initiative 10
> Warp-Rift: Template that auto removes models from play
> The Summoning: A single friendly unit that is anywhere on the table is placed within 6" of the librarian and counts as deepstriking.
> Smite: As C:SM
> Might of Titan: Beginning of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand.
> The Shrouding: Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" gain stealth (minimum 5+ cover in the open).
> Mind Blades: Start of any assault phase. One enemy unit within 6" loses 1 toughness for the rest of the assault phase.
> Vortex of Doom: As C:SM
> Sanctury: Enemy assault phase. Enemy units wishing to assault any Grey Knight within 12" of librarian must make a difficult AND dangerous terrain test.
> Psychic Communion (Grandmaster and Captain only): Take a psychic test. If passed, you may modify any reserve rolls by + or -1.
> Heroic Sacrafice (Champion only): During any assault phase and when the "chaplain" dies. If the psychic test is passed, make one attack against any one model that is in base to base with the champion. If the attack hits, the model is removed as a casualty with no saves. If it misses, there is no effect.
> Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Start of any assault phase. All enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck with saving throws allowed. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
> Astral Aim (Purgation Squad only): Shooting Phase. Unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range and regardless of line of sight. Target automatically gets a 4+ cover save that cannot be modified.
> Reconstruction (techmarines only): Beginning of techmarine's movement. Re-roll any repair roll.
> Fortitude (Vehicle only): At the start of Grey Knight player's turn, removes any shaken or stunned results.
> Zone of Banishment(Captain Stern only): During Stern's assault phase. All models (friend and foe, but NOT stern) within 6" make a strength test or are removed from play. Demons must re-roll successful tests.


Hit it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

The problem with hardback is the price, saw some rumours about it being around 29USD, not sure what the current ones cost but from what I understood it's a price increase.

I've listened to the Overlords podcast and there are some nice rumours in there. Will add it to the front page.


----------



## GrizBe

Cost wise, in the Uk its an extra £5.. £17.50 for the paperbacks, £22.50 for the hard back. Soo, roughly an extra $7-10 to the Americans here.

Now for hardback, and full colour printing... Yes, complete colour the entire way through.. no boring black and white... I think thats worth it. But i'd still like to see bog standard, paperback and black and white options.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> Cost wise, in the Uk its an extra £5.. £17.50 for the paperbacks, £22.50 for the hard back. Soo, roughly an extra $7-10 to the Americans here.
> 
> Now for hardback, and full colour printing... Yes, complete colour the entire way through.. no boring black and white... I think thats worth it. But i'd still like to see bog standard, paperback and black and white options.


Well, that's all good for you guys but the rest of the world gets boned pretty hard.
The US pays 5% more
EU pays 24% more
Australia pays 70% more

It might not be a big issue for ppl who can get the stuff at UK prices but for Australians the price would land at about 30£ for a hardback.

I pretty much never buy models where I live, I order pretty much everything from the UK simply because even if I have to pay shipping it's still allot cheaper. Heck it's even cheaper to buy from GW UK and pay for shipping than it is from GW Finland and get free shipping (if you buy for at least 35£).


----------



## TheSpore

Ok this prolly isnt anything new.

Now i got bored at work today and decided to put my analyst skills to work(my former military job). From the research i have done it would seem every codex release including GK was released between 4 to 6 months apart. This does vary here and there if you look at the history of release dates.Now this is 40k alone also excluding expansions and imp. armour books as well. What is my point exactly well here ya go.

All research that points to the SOBs would include sources such as this guy that calls himself Stick Monkey apparently seeing the prototype models for the SOBs. As far as I have been able to find is that Stick Monkey is a credible source. He has made many postings on rumours that have come to be and he is well known through out the community. 

Last thing to note most rumours i have found point to the Necron, Tau, and Sobs in that order are to have a new dex by the end of the year. Another side note is that some Black Library books tend to be released around the same time as a new dex comes out. Exple. the release date for Victories of the SM is going to be out in the very end of March and the GK dex is coming out in April. If you see on the BL site Hammer and Anvil( a SOB novel) by James Swallow is to be released in December 2011.

What does all this nonsense mean well you guessed it after the release of the GK dex I asses that we will see Necrons within 3 months(July), Tau(September), and SOBs(December). So after Aplril every 3(maybe 4) months there will be a new release possible.
Some of this may not be new to anyone but it can help give a lil insight on how GW operates to a degree.

{this is not an official statment from any GW sources but yet what research i have collected. Take it it for what it is worth.}
Sources include: Warseer, BOLS, BlackLibrary.com, gamesworkshop.com, and a listing of release dates from wikipedia


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> Ok this prolly isnt anything new.
> 
> Now i got bored at work today and decided to put my analyst skills to work(my former military job). From the research i have done it would seem every codex release including GK was released between 4 to 6 months apart. This does vary here and there if you look at the history of release dates.Now this is 40k alone also excluding expansions and imp. armour books as well. What is my point exactly well here ya go.
> 
> All research that points to the SOBs would include sources such as this guy that calls himself Stick Monkey apparently seeing the prototype models for the SOBs. As far as I have been able to find is that Stick Monkey is a credible source. He has made many postings on rumours that have come to be and he is well known through out the community.
> 
> Last thing to note most rumours i have found point to the Necron, Tau, and Sobs in that order are to have a new dex by the end of the year. Another side note is that some Black Library books tend to be released around the same time as a new dex comes out. Exple. the release date for Victories of the SM is going to be out in the very end of March and the GK dex is coming out in April. If you see on the BL site Hammer and Anvil( a SOB novel) by James Swallow is to be released in December 2011.
> 
> What does all this nonsense mean well you guessed it after the release of the GK dex I asses that we will see Necrons within 3 months(July), Tau(September), and SOBs(December). So after Aplril every 3(maybe 4) months there will be a new release possible.
> Some of this may not be new to anyone but it can help give a lil insight on how GW operates to a degree.


The problem I see with this is DE second wave (rumoured to be 3rd week of March and a metal release only (succubus, all beasts and beastmasters), the 40k fliers release said to be sometime this summer. The DE fliers might get released at the same time. Then you need to add in some Fantasy and LotR stuff.

I would actually agree with you on seeing Necrons and Sisters this year though. I've been hearing Necrons might have been pushed back to next year.
The reason is because of the BL books, Hammer and Anvil was scheduled for a September release but has been pushed back "to incorporate things GW are developing at the moment (said by James Swallow himself when I asked him about the push back)". Hammer and Anvil is about the Sisters return to Sanctuary 101 where the first encounter with the Necrons occurred and the Sisters chapels there were destroyed.

I've said it before but my own analytic skills said that we would see Necrons this summer and Sisters in September and maybe even a starter set featuring both of them to coincide with the BL book about them fighting each other. Purging of Sanctuary 101 or some such I would call it.
Now with Hammer and Anvil being pushed back to December and the rumours about Necrons getting pushed back I could see Necrons or Sisters in November and the other being the first release of 2012.

There is also a rumour about a Tau release this autumn, not a new book but plastic pathfinders and Vespids. This sounds really retarded as the Tau dont need to get those models in plastic, they need new rules for them. No matter if Vespids are metal or plastic, they still suck either way.
I dont put much faith in this rumour as it sounds really dumb, then again it is GW we are talking about.


----------



## Irbian

I dont see any medic on the henchmen. I expected them there

What is a banisher?


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> The problem I see with this is DE second wave (rumoured to be 3rd week of March and a metal release only (succubus, all beasts and beastmasters), the 40k fliers release said to be sometime this summer. The DE fliers might get released at the same time. Then you need to add in some Fantasy and LotR stuff.
> 
> I would actually agree with you on seeing Necrons and Sisters this year though. I've been hearing Necrons might have been pushed back to next year.
> The reason is because of the BL books, Hammer and Anvil was scheduled for a September release but has been pushed back "to incorporate things GW are developing at the moment (said by James Swallow himself when I asked him about the push back)". Hammer and Anvil is about the Sisters return to Sanctuary 101 where the first encounter with the Necrons occurred and the Sisters chapels there were destroyed.
> 
> I've said it before but my own analytic skills said that we would see Necrons this summer and Sisters in September and maybe even a starter set featuring both of them to coincide with the BL book about them fighting each other. Purging of Sanctuary 101 or some such I would call it.
> Now with Hammer and Anvil being pushed back to December and the rumours about Necrons getting pushed back I could see Necrons or Sisters in November and the other being the first release of 2012.
> 
> There is also a rumour about a Tau release this autumn, not a new book but plastic pathfinders and Vespids. This sounds really retarded as the Tau dont need to get those models in plastic, they need new rules for them. No matter if Vespids are metal or plastic, they still suck either way.
> I dont put much faith in this rumour as it sounds really dumb, then again it is GW we are talking about.


I can agree with your research. I didnt't take into consideration about fantasy and LOTR, but if the 2nd wave DE includes a few metal models to be released i can see another release of some kind at the same time frame. I will have to do some more research into this and get back to you with a new assesment. What i stated earlier was simply a pattern i have discoverd and since the new SOB book is based on the SOBs and the Necrons maybe its time of release is right after the possible release of the dexes. Also note from my research i found that the dates tend to vary here and there but for the most part stay 4 to 6 months apart. Thanks for the insight i will dig a lil deeper and reasses


----------



## Azezel

I'm afraid I'm going to have to shoot you down on almost every point, Old Man. I wish you were right, but there we are.



TheSpore said:


> From the research i have done it would seem every codex release including GK was released between 4 to 6 months apart. This does vary here and there if you look at the history of release dates.
> 
> True, but not by design. We've been told often enough that GW likes to keep their schedule very fluid. Morover, in the last decade there've only been two years with 3 Codices published ('08 & 10). It's a rare event.
> 
> All research that points to the SOBs would include sources such as this guy that calls himself Stick Monkey apparently seeing the prototype models for the SOBs. As far as I have been able to find is that Stick Monkey is a credible source. He has made many postings on rumours that have come to be and he is well known through out the community.
> 
> Stickmonkey himself would tell you that he's been wrong before.
> 
> As for this 'prototype' Battle Sister, I think 'concept sculpt' would be more apropriate. Jes Goodwin said that GW started talking about Sisters before Dark Eldar (ie, five years ago) - and thhat they've been in 'design hell' (his own words) all that time. That sculpt could have been made at any time in the past five years, hell even earlier. It would appear to be simply a concept of how a new Battle Sister mini might look. The Important work of actually creating that mini, in a form suitable for a plastic kit has not even begun.
> 
> Jes said that he would be working on DE until June this year, and then taking some time off thereafter. The best case scenario is that he _starts_ work on new Sisters in August or so. given that the man is damned good at his job, it's possible that he could be finished by summer _next year_, if nothing goes wrong.
> 
> Last thing to note most rumours i have found point to the Necron, Tau, and Sobs in that order are to have a new dex by the end of the year. Another side note is that some Black Library books tend to be released around the same time as a new dex comes out. Exple. the release date for Victories of the SM is going to be out in the very end of March and the GK dex is coming out in April. If you see on the BL site Hammer and Anvil( a SOB novel) by James Swallow is to be released in December 2011.
> 
> GW simply do not tie codices to BL, and BL do not tie novels to codices. The closest they ever come to cooperation seems to be delaying Hammer & anvil for new Necron fluff (and even that is only supposition).
> 
> What does all this nonsense mean well you guessed it after the release of the GK dex I asses that we will see Necrons within 3 months(July), Tau(September), and SOBs(December). So after Aplril every 3(maybe 4) months there will be a new release possible.
> 
> Games Workshop has never released a Codex in December. It's not what they do - they put out big kits and boxsets in December. The odds of seeing Necrons by July are very slim, but it's not impossible. It's vanishingly unlikely that GW will put out three non-marine codices in a row, they have to eat, you know.
> 
> And Sisters by the end of the year is pretty muuch a fool's hope - GW don't issue codices unless they have models to sell, and they won't have models to sell this year.


----------



## Necrosis

I'm just wondering but where did you get all this info about Jes Goodwin saying all this stuff?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> I dont see any medic on the henchmen. I expected them there
> 
> What is a banisher?


The only medic I've seen so far are for those 2w terminators who can get an Apothecary, other than this no medics have been mentioned anywhere.
I would expect the Sisters to be able to put Sister Hospitaller in squads in a similar way to how you can add priests at the moment.

A good system would be 0-5 Priests, Sister Hospitaller, Sister Dialogus and the other Henchmen in the WH codex. You could only have a total of 5 in any combination and put them in pretty much any squads.
Meh, this is just me wishlisting so ignore my random ramblings :crazy:


From what I can gather it's a pretty useless unit, you can upgrade him with Eviscerator, only henchman with Preferred Enemy Daemons and Daemons near them has to reroll successful inv saves.

I guess it's a cheap way to get Eviscerators, if the rumours are true you could get 12 of these guys with Eviscerators (count as Chainfist with 2D6 armour pen) in a Chimera and drive forwards.

Afaik all henchmen have guardsman stats except Arco and Deathcult (since that would make no sense) so I guess they would be S6 (with Eviscerator Strength bonus) and 5+ armour save (guardsmen have 5+ right?). Hmm, I guess you could run Sister Repentia as these. Only difference is they dont have the Repentia special Holy rage and other rules but these can go in a transport which mean they might actually get to the target instead of getting shot down halfway there.

Oh, I got some Instant mold today, will be doing a complete review of the stuff later this week.


----------



## Azezel

Necrosis said:


> I'm just wondering but where did you get all this info about Jes Goodwin saying all this stuff?


A chap called StraightSilver spoke to him at the DE launch. I'll repost the Sisters-related bits.





> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to crack on with Sisters, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for quite some time.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next.
> 
> ...
> 
> He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011 so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects. I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.
> 
> It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.
> 
> ...
> 
> Well [Jes Goodwin] told me that he would be working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.
> 
> ...
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.
> 
> They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.


So... Yeah, As of Novemberish, no work had been done on making actual sisters kits and none was scheduled until at best, the middle of this year. sorry folks.

The strong implication is that, whilst very much soluable, the problems with plastic Sisters have not actually _been_ solved yet.

Harry once claimed that a new plastic kit required a lead-time of 18 months, but I like to think that's an outside estimate and that it could be done in a year.


----------



## Irbian

Ey, your random babling is important, is not like this is warseer, we can talk here. 

About the medics, well, I hadnt heard about them anywhere in the rumours, but I have some medic conversion that I would like to use.

Dreadknight on first wave, yes or not? discuss!


----------



## Katie Drake

Irbian said:


> Dreadknight on first wave, yes or not? discuss!


It is. I've seen a photo of it that was painted and everything.


----------



## Azezel

What was your impression of it? Could you give some examples or pictures of similar looking things? I think it's been compared to the walkers from the Matrix sequels.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> A chap called StraightSilver spoke to him at the DE launch. I'll repost the Sisters-related bits.


Cause we always know people tell the truth. I mean how many times do we hear people say something about so and so codex or this person said so and so and it ends up being true.


----------



## Irbian

is a photo you can share?  probably not 

It was compared also with the alien exo suit


----------



## Azezel

Oh, I can't vouch for his telling the truth, though he was backed up by another person who also says he spoke to Jes at the DE launch.

The man could be making it all up, but you asked where I was getting it from and that's the answer. You'll have to take the rest up with StraightSilver, he posts at the Bolter and Chainsword and Warseer if it's that important.

I sympathise - I too greatly desire a new codex (new models are less important to me), but it does no good to be overly-optimistic.

With the information we have, adjusting for the probable reliability of each source, I stand by the following conclusions as logical.

* Games Workshop are highly unlikely to publish a new Sisters Codex without acomanying Plastic Battle Sisters (and other kits of some kind).
* The Battle Sister described by Stickmonkey was essentialy concept art, allbeit in sculpture, rather than illustration.
* Plastic Battle Sisters are more than twelve months away, probably more than 18 away.


Bullet two is the weakest of my conclusions, and for the likes of you and I, likely unprovable. Nevertheless, I consider it to be the most logical conclusion possible from the available evidence.


----------



## TheSpore

Necrosis said:


> I'm just wondering but where did you get all this info about Jes Goodwin saying all this stuff?


what jess is refering to is that i did a bit of research and used my intel gathering skills to ultimately achieve an assesment again i will say for jess to "ASSESMENT". Also as i stated it was not an official statment. If you sit and not only go by what you hear and do the research you will see a pattern. Which is what we analyst do. Mind this tye of work was my job only a month ago so i am still fresh as to what i know how to do. I understand that i might be wrong here and there but watch and see what happens. I also admit there were some factors i did not consider. As for the BL stuff it is possible to see something before the release of hammer and anvil I also see it as more than a coincidence that it is to be released when there is nothing currently out there to suport these armies. I check my research before i speak and asses. 
Please take no offense to this.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Katie Drake said:


> It is. I've seen a photo of it that was painted and everything.


I'm EXTREMELY interested in knowing if this kit would be good for a Penitent Engine conversion. I hate metal models (yeah, the irony of my fav army being 95% metal...) so would really like to know if this is something that can be used as a Penitent Engine.

A Penitent Engine is basically half a Sentinel with a bit larger leg parts and another upper body.

Do you think the Dreadknight might be used as a base for a new Penitent Engine kit? Say change it so instead of a GK in it you get a heretic strapped to it?


----------



## Necrosis

I was talking to Azezel. I never like the reason cause I heard this and this person say so. The statement was no way directed to you Spore


----------



## TheSpore

Necrosis said:


> I was talking to Azezel. I never like the reason cause I heard this and this person say so. The statement was no way directed to you Spore


my apologies


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> It is. I've seen a photo of it that was painted and everything.


Not going to ask you for details or a picture, since I'm sure that you can't do that, but maybe you could help settle a debate? Is the Dreadknight equal to or smaller than the Dreadnought, or is it bigger and in the same league as the other "big" models (Trygon, Valk, Landraider, etc.)?

I think that's vague enough that you could answer :biggrin:


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Do you think the Dreadknight might be used as a base for a new Penitent Engine kit? Say change it so instead of a GK in it you get a heretic strapped to it?


It might. The only thing that makes me hesitate a bit is that it doesn't really look much like the Grey Knight is actually restrained while wearing it - he's very clearly the operator, so it might take some rather difficult conversion to make it look appropriately unpleasant for the occupant. I think there'll end up being new Penitent Engine models anyway (though I don't think they're actually needed).


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Katie Drake said:


> though I don't think they're actually needed


GASP! HERESY!!

On a more serious note I really love the Penitent Engine model but I just hate working with metal models. As GW really like their walkers I wouldn't be surprised if in the first wave of sisters we get plastic battle sisters, plastic seraphim, plastic repressor, exorcist and penitent engines.
Plastic Sister Repentia would also be welcome but dont think it would happen unless you would be able to field them as Troops standard.
Heck if Repentia and Penitent Engines got the scout rule and repentia got FNP instead of a 4+ armour save I would consider them fixed.

Would you be willing to describe the legs? Are they like Sentinel legs or are they the stumpy dreadnought type legs?


----------



## Vhalyar

Small update over at BoK:


> Going over the latest rumors on BoLS they are pretty spot on. They basically just more specific rumors I had. Understand there will be a mixing of the orders. They go into detail about this in the fluff. *If you see my batch of Rumors you will notice I mention that Grey Knights are (subservient) basically the special forces to the Inquisitors.* I do believe though they keep the Inquisitors Xenos separate I cannot remember frankly. Their will be no Drop Pods that is what the Stormraven is for hehe.
> 
> They are getting closer.* I am trying to get pics of the new sculps here is to hoping guys!*


Interesting bit of fluff and perhaps pictures sooner than expected.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Not going to ask you for details or a picture, since I'm sure that you can't do that, but maybe you could help settle a debate? Is the Dreadknight equal to or smaller than the Dreadnought, or is it bigger and in the same league as the other "big" models (Trygon, Valk, Landraider, etc.)?
> 
> I think that's vague enough that you could answer :biggrin:


I didn't actually get to see it in relation to the other models in the range, but I'd almost be willing to bet that it's a fair bit taller than a Dreadnought. I'd imagine it's around the same size as the Penitent Engine.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Would you be willing to describe the legs? Are they like Sentinel legs or are they the stumpy dreadnought type legs?












It's more or less that, but with a Grey Knight driving it and big guns on the arms. It looks like it has three toes. The feet aren't unlike the feet of a Dreadnought.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> It's more or less that, but with a Grey Knight driving it and big guns on the arms. It looks like it has three toes. The feet aren't unlike the feet of a Dreadnought.


So I suppose an apt name for it would be *Tactical Badass Armour.*


----------



## oiad

Heya all. I've been lurking around this thread recently, looking for some answers now its attention has turned to the image of the dreadknight. While were on the subject of the model (w/ pics) I wanted to ask about comparisons to a picture that has been banded about in other wh40k forums.

Is this piece of fanart anyway near accurate, or is the Aliens powerloader _far more_ closer than this to the finished article?:










Oh and thanks for the rumours & podcast Dagmire. Interesting info.


----------



## superwill

Another question (and I've read every page of this thread so if I've missed it it's not through laziness): are the paladin models totally different to the regular GKT? Or is it just a matter of what you use them as?

Thanks guys!


----------



## Irbian

> So I suppose an apt name for it would be Tactical Badass Armour.


Hell yeah!

@oiad: Thats a very good first post  The picture is awesome


----------



## GrizBe

If it looks even vaguely similar to a powerloader, or the pic that oaid posted, I'll be extremely happy and buying one for sheer awesome value.


----------



## Winterous

superwill said:


> Another question (and I've read every page of this thread so if I've missed it it's not through laziness): are the paladin models totally different to the regular GKT? Or is it just a matter of what you use them as?


There has been no mention, however I imagine they will either be regular Terminators but with extra fancy bits, or a very similar model with the aforementioned fancy bits.


----------



## TheSpore

Im glad GW is gonna give some new stuff to the GK because they always did lack in some places of the army.


----------



## Winterous

TheSpore said:


> Im glad GW is gonna give some new stuff to the GK because they always did lack in some places of the army.


all* places of the army.


----------



## TheSpore

Winterous said:


> all* places of the army.


very true just wasnt gonna go to far. I just remember everyone i knew back in the day never could win with them. I personally think they just didnt trully understand them. Then again i never played them i was a sister player.


----------



## andrewm9

I've read Jess's statements as relayed to us by Silverlight and I never thought that Jess had not started on the Sisters models. When you have problem with certain things that inmdicates to me that the work has been started. We've also been told by other rumor mongers that work was started not too long after Grey Knights on various Sisters things so I don't think the work time is long as some people think.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I also remember reading that the Sisters were started before the DE, that would mean they have been in production for 5+ years. Does it really take that long to write a new codex and make some new models?


----------



## andrewm9

MadCowCrazy said:


> I also remember reading that the Sisters were started before the DE, that would mean they have been in production for 5+ years. Does it really take that long to write a new codex and make some new models?


I'd bet that the codex is written for the most part but the models have not been completed. Model problems I can understand. Dynamic posing with sleeves and tabards must be difficult to get right at best. using my FW Raven Guard upgrade kits on my space marine army I encounter this very issue. A dangling skull doesn't look right when your arm is turned upgright for instance. I'm willing to wait for beautiful models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

A VERY cryptic post by Stickmonkey, everything from DE, GK, Nids, plastic warhounds and Necrons has been speculated. See what you can figure out from this.

Deep in the void, the cosmic groundhog opened a great eye and peered lazily around. Necrons?

Across the multiverse a great battle raged, the agile warriors of the snake locking weapons with the mighty silver astartes. DE fighting with GKs?

On yet another world, great titans of man trudged across decimated cities of bone. Barbed insects darted around them, more an annoyance than a threat. But in the distance, Shadows hinted at something bigger coming. Plastic titans fighting Necrons or some new sort of Tyranid? or just IA11?

Deep within Mars forges, a low rumble began to grow. The Void Dragon machine god breaking free? Not really sure what this one means at all.

As it's gaze met it's warp shadow, it's great eyes slowly closed once more. Perhaps it would yet awaken... Necrons getting pushed back?


----------



## soulreaver296

I Knew It!!!! Stickmonkey Is DPA's alter ego!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Whilst reading through the entire thread I found this :


> Appreciate the debate over my veracity. The reality is I am aware that my rumoring has been hit or miss, just the nature of where in the cycle I hear things and from who. What I will say is that with regard to models, I have a much better track record, with regard to rules, not so great...I hear things way to early to be useful. So I will be trying to avoid that going forward.
> 
> I've given you all a day for this.
> 
> The groundhog opening and closing it's eyes is merely a reference to the american event and is a nod to the necron delay...however, my sources say there is still a possibility of making 2011. All the void, cosmic, warp, etc. Stuff is to maintain the literary flow of the post.
> 
> The silver astartes is the upcoming GK release, but also wave 2 of GK models is likely now going to be 2011 not 2012.
> 
> Agile warriors of the snake is a saim hann reference, there are new craft world eldar models being finalized. I can't yet reveal those specifics.
> 
> An apocalypse model is being moved forward, this is a xenos release, and if everything goes to plan will be released in late november. With a reveal sometime in august or september. Shadow of something bigger...
> 
> Titans of man, is not literal Titans, but large men...astartes and imperium warriors, which are part of the ia11 release. FW should have a reveal for you of additional ia11 models either this week or next week in the newsletter.
> 
> The mars reference is two fold, the void dragon is stirring...necrons are coming soon...and there are also some new imperial toys in process. But I can't reveal those just yet either. Maybe in march...
> 
> I think that covers it. You might not like it, you might want to stick sharp pointy sticks in my eyes, and I will freely admit I am not a English professor, but it's what I'm willing to give you for now...
> 
> cheers.




So the riddle is solved, I was pretty close with my own estimates


----------



## Katie Drake

oiad said:


> Is this piece of fanart anyway near accurate, or is the Aliens powerloader _far more_ closer than this to the finished article?:


Alright, I'll sort of go through each part of it and talk comparison.

The head is fairly close. The Grey Knight who's operating the Dreadknight's head pokes out of the top a tiny bit. There aren't any Imperial symbols that I can make out.

The operator isn't seated, but standing.

The arms are much more human-like than this picture. There are actual five-fingered hands holding the Dreadknight's weaponry.

The legs are completely different than this fan art. The fan art is more like a Dreadnought whereas the Dreadknight is much closer to the Aliens power loader. It doesn't seem that there are any of those "shin protector" plates that Dreadnoughts have on the Dreadknight.

Give it a few hours guys, I'm gonna see about just posting the picture. It'll be a lot easier and frankly after a recent altercation I can't say I'm overly worried about my source's anonymity.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Give it a few hours guys, I'm gonna see about just posting the picture. It'll be a lot easier and frankly after a recent altercation I can't say I'm overly worried about my source's anonymity.


Frankly I'm more interested in what this 'altercation' was than your source!


----------



## GrizBe

Hmm.. two GK waves this year? I guess that would mean we'll get the first bunch of toys in April, and the second bunch will probably hit at October ready for christmas.

As for Apocalypse.. i'd heard rumours of everyone getting an Apoc unit (IE, Ork Stomper, IG Baneblade...) I'd guess this mean well be seeing a Nid Biotitan, and possibly plastic Warhounds...


As for teh dreadknight... I'm liking the sound of it :biggrin:


----------



## TheSpore

I love the FW bio titan i swear one day i will buy just to paint it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Stickmonkey has said it many times, he sees thing VERY EARLY in development. The rules he posts have always been in early development and he himself says he might not be completely accurate with his rules rumours.

He is however usually right on what's in development, actually I cant think of a time when he has been wrong. He is usually also the first person to "reveal" what's being worked on.

He brings rumours and that's all I care about, have you guys actually tried searching all 40k forums out there for good reliable rumours? There is tons of shit I have to sift trough every day, Stickmonkey might be cryptic but it's still allot more reliable than Bob who heard from a friend who talked to a GW employee who heard from his manager who went to some course at GW HQ where he saw something that might have been a land raider with some strange looking gun.

He reported on the LR Achilles at least 6 months before it came out, it was rumoured to be a GK vehicle since he saw it at the same time he saw the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights models but in the end it turned out to be a FW model.

He might be cryptic and you might think it's annoying but it's still allot better than nothing at all. There has been rumours drought lasting weeks, now when we are getting nearer the release we will start seeing more and more each week. Until we get the rumours-gasm we saw the month before the DE release.
I'd say at the start of next month people will have gotten their hands on the codex and started posting bits.

I can only get the codex 2-3 weeks before official release but that felt like old news when I got my hands on it and could confirm stuff.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

So how bout that Dreadknight picture Kate, eh? I am dying of anticipation, or maybe its the fine lead based paint used in this dorm room. Its the former most likely.


----------



## Vhalyar

Huh, bunch of posts went poof. Nevermind then.


----------



## Irbian

Here Im with MadCow. Stickmonkey could be wrong sometimes but he see things very early in development and give us an idea of what is coming next. I think I cant explain it better that MCC did.



> Point is, discrediting, or trying to discredit any source of rumours just means we get less rumour guys posting as they feel they aren't appreciated and theres no points trying to bring news to the masses who want to hear it.


This. Is not about swallow everything people say. What they bring are RUMOURS. Some people can be more reliable, get more info from differents development states, but I find unconfortable to point someone fail, like if everything he said is bullshit.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Removed some off topic posts.
You are free to discredit, bash and trash whom ever you like, just dont do it here please.
If you dont want to believe something that has been written by someone then dont but unless you can bring proof that what they are saying is wrong dont just write "they are full of shit and anything they say can't be trusted".

At the end of the day we are dealing with rumours, hearsay and unconfirmed mumblings.
This is a thread for rumours and discussing those rumours, it's not a thread for bashing the people who provide them.

If you dont think someone is reliable just ignore whatever it is they are claiming, if people seem to appraise them whilst you "know" it's wrong just wait until it is confirmed otherwise.

Unless you can bring something to the table that's more reliable than the usual rumours posters please keep the bashing to pms or on other forums.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Huh, bunch of posts went poof. Nevermind then.


It's magic


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> It's magic


That makes you The Wizard of Ho then.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Uploading part 1 of my InstantMold review to youtube right now, will complete it tomorrow when the things I've copied have hardened.

Need help with those pics Katie?


----------



## Katie Drake

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> So how bout that Dreadknight picture Kate, eh? I am dying of anticipation, or maybe its the fine lead based paint used in this dorm room. Its the former most likely.


It's coming. I've been in touch with some of the staff and we're just taking measures to make sure nobody gets a Cease and Desist.  Sorry for the delay.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Need help with those pics Katie?


Actually, yes. See your PM inbox.


----------



## GrizBe

*Twiddles thumbs waiting*


----------



## oiad

Katie Drake said:


> Alright, I'll sort of go through each part of it and talk comparison.
> 
> The head is fairly close. The Grey Knight who's operating the Dreadknight's head pokes out of the top a tiny bit. There aren't any Imperial symbols that I can make out.
> 
> The operator isn't seated, but standing.
> 
> The arms are much more human-like than this picture. There are actual five-fingered hands holding the Dreadknight's weaponry.
> 
> The legs are completely different than this fan art. The fan art is more like a Dreadnought whereas the Dreadknight is much closer to the Aliens power loader. It doesn't seem that there are any of those "shin protector" plates that Dreadnoughts have on the Dreadknight.
> 
> Give it a few hours guys, I'm gonna see about just posting the picture. It'll be a lot easier and frankly after a recent altercation I can't say I'm overly worried about my source's anonymity.


Lots of helpful details. Cheers Ms. Drake. Look forward to those dreadknight pictures. Hopefully by the sounds of things, they're not being too problematic.

Thanks too goes to Irbian & MadCowCrazy for being very welcoming.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> I also remember reading that the Sisters were started before the DE


I believe what you may be refering to is that there were a few SOB test models done which the studio were less then impressed by, the team used what they learned when they were making the new DE models.

I heard something akin about two years ago now (possibly in a forum), I suspect there is at least a little bit of truth in there


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Problem solved


----------



## Katie Drake

Okay everybody, sorry for the rather significant delay. Won't go into details as I'm sure nobody cares anyway.

Now before anyone bitches about quality, realize that these photos were taken by a webcam... of images on an iPad or something. So yes, they're blurry. Yes, they're the only ones available so deal with it.

Special thanks to *LTP* for the Heresy Online watermark.
*
IMAGES REMOVED AT GAMES WORKSHOP REQUEST
* 
Hope everyone enjoys. 

Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves.


----------



## firstandonly246

Katie your the best! Those pics are blurry yes, but im sure all of us a very appreciative for posting them. I have no problem with them. The dreadkngiht is MUCH bigger than i thought it would be. Hell, in the army pic it looks like its bigger than the LR. So excited for it now!


----------



## soulreaver296

That... looks pretty damn good, actually, i was expecting worse

is that a rhino under the right storm raven?


----------



## Kalshinko

Pure awesome!!!!


----------



## Baron Spikey

soulreaver296 said:


> That... looks pretty damn good, actually, i was expecting worse
> 
> is that a rhino under the right storm raven?


Yeah, zoomed in and the Dreadknight is over twice the height of a Rhino


----------



## Katie Drake

soulreaver296 said:


> is that a rhino under the right storm raven?


It is, yes.


----------



## LTP

Katie Drake said:


> Special thanks to *LTP* for the Heresy Online watermark.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves.



My pleasure  Thankyou for the awesome pics ! 
and lmao ! they got told haha


----------



## oiad

Holy woah! That's no dread-wannabe, that looks more like a Autobot figurine!

Seriously, much Kudos. Make me wish I could stretch that second picture out so I can get a closer look at the new infantry & character models.

Also, this is so getting pirated by other people at the moment. Other forums have already caught on, as expected.


----------



## soulreaver296

Baron Spikey said:


> Yeah, zoomed in and the Dreadknight is over twice the height of a Rhino


Thanks... just making sure that scale was right. That thing is huge.

THANK YOU KATIE!!!!!


----------



## Vhalyar

Woah, it looks... good? And one of them is holding a giant sword? :biggrin:
That means there's more options than what the current leaks have hinted at.


----------



## Wusword77

I am so happy this is coming out right when I get my government refund check.

Those pics are amazing. I can't wait for these to hit shelves.


----------



## Irbian

First: Awesome pictures. You rock!

Now...Some questions come to my mind:
Will we have the codex in the new format? Like the new orc&goblins
I dont recognize the picture from the codex
I see... a polebanner?
Several book banners
Some kind of "wings". Maybe the teleporter system
Dont see inquisition anywhere
Dreadknight arms: Sword, fusion, psycannon, flamer?


----------



## soulreaver296

If you blow up the army pic, there are termies on the left and the center. BUT, the center ones have a little back piece that looks like the GK Chapter Symbol (Not to mention that the left front one DEFINITELY looks like an apothecary. Could that be the paladin differentiator (god i hope i spelled that right)? from the picture, its hard to tell, but the two groups look remarkably similar otherwise. (unless its an honour guard/command squad)


----------



## raven925

BITCHIN! KD, you are a god. The dredknight is pretty damn big, but im kinda eh on the sword. But for a blurry pic it pretty good, maybe ill change my mind about the sword if i get a better pic. But all in all, good job.


----------



## Tuatara

I promised myself I wouldn't get excited. I promised myself I wouldn't take too much too seriously and wait it out. I promised myself I would stay calm and collected, no matter what people wrote down.

Now that I have seen those pix, all that has gone out the window. Are you happy now Katie? Look what you've done. I'm worse than Cartman waiting for the Wii. Damn it! I promised myself so much, and failed on so many levels.

Seriously though katie, thanks for those pix. They are very cool. As for blurryness, we'll send them to Fox Mulder and friends and they'll be able to enlarge sections of the photos, enhance them, enlarge again, enhance again, reverse image and enhance again untill we will be able to see a portrait quality picture of the person who took the picture in the reflection of one of the headlights in the land raider.


----------



## Dagmire

FANtastic, is heresy online the first to post these?
May I be the first to say the Dreadknight looks like shit 
I hope i change my mind when I see it in the flesh


----------



## Katie Drake

Dagmire said:


> FANtastic, is heresy online the first to post these?


You know it.


----------



## soulreaver296

Tuatara said:


> As for blurryness, we'll send them to Fox Mulder and friends and they'll be able to enlarge sections of the photos, enhance them, enlarge again, enhance again, reverse image and enhance again untill we will be able to see a portrait quality picture of the person who took the picture in the reflection of one of the headlights in the land raider.


NOO!!! Then GW will know who leaked them!!!!!!!! YOU'VE DOOMED THEM, YOU FOOOOOL!!!!:biggrin:


----------



## soots12

katie;
your the best x 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
the dreadknight looks like the villan from the first iron man ;P


----------



## oiad

soulreaver296 said:


> If you blow up the army pic, there are termies on the left and the center. BUT, the center ones have a little back piece that looks like the GK Chapter Symbol (Not to mention that the left front one DEFINITELY looks like an apothecary. Could that be the paladin differentiator (god i hope i spelled that right)? from the picture, its hard to tell, but the two groups look remarkably similar otherwise. (unless its an honour guard/command squad)


Paladins in the middle, GKTs to the left imo. Paladins seem to have banners or books above their cowl.


----------



## Azezel

Book banners? Hell, now my Seraphim Superior with the book halo won't be so unique...

That Dreadknight is huge - if it really were a multi-purpose kit to make a Dreadknight/PE then it'd be cool, although since the PE isn't supposed to be in the GK 'dex, and WH/SoB aren't any time soon, that seems unlikely.

Muck much Kudos to you, Miss Drake. Now if only someone could enhance the images.


EDIT - now that I think of it, do you know if the 'dex is hardback or soft? Impossible to tell from the picture.


----------



## GrizBe

Okay.. my impressions.... 

Codex! Yay! I do want to know if its hardback or not though. Bad blurry pic I'm aware, but it looks a little more substantial then a normal codex cover... and seems to have that slightl curved top edge, that marks a hardback as being one.

Second... holy crap the dreadknight is huge! I'm buying one for sure, even if the rules suck, it looks awesome. Very Power-loader-esque.

Thirdly... I think i'm going to be extremely happy with what models are release


----------



## Bindi Baji

yay it's............a transformer





oiad said:


> Holy woah! That's no dread-wannabe, that looks more like a Autobot figurine!


nah, it's a decepticon, the one that was several cars and a truck, menasor or something




Katie Drake said:


> Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves.


that's certainly the way to do it :clapping:


----------



## GrizBe

Bindi Baji said:


> nah, it's a decepticon, the one that was several cars and a truck, menasor or something:


The one in the movie with the decepticles?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I bet some ork players will love that model, replace the sword with the Stompa chainsaw blade thing 

If you liked the pics give KD some rep


----------



## bhsman

Dagmire said:


> FANtastic, is heresy online the first to post these?
> May I be the first to say the Dreadknight looks like shit
> I hope i change my mind when I see it in the flesh


It looks 'better' than I expected, but I've got no urge to field it. It's just dumb. Thanks for the pictures though, Katie. =)


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Okay everybody, sorry for the rather significant delay. Won't go into details as I'm sure nobody cares anyway.


I'm interested to hear.

Anyway, Katie, have I ever told you that I love you?
You have proven yourself to be the single most awesome person in the world.
Even more awesome than DK, and I know that may seem like an exaggeration, but it isn't.


----------



## Wusword77

Lols someone posted these pics on /tg/. The amount of rage at the dreadknight is amazing. :laugh:

And of course theres the two idiots with the "Pictures are fake, thats why they are blurry DERP DERP!!"


----------



## Katie Drake

Wusword77 said:


> And of course theres the two idiots with the "Pictures are fake, thats why they are blurry DERP DERP!!"


Yeah, I was expecting this. =/ Not much to do about it sadly.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

bhsman said:


> but I've got no urge to field it


Just wait till you see the rules for this thing and the wargear it can bring for the points cost. If you want to see a Daemon player cry just field 2 of these for 300pt vs a 1500pt Daemon army and laugh as you erase the Daemons from this dimension.

Then again, I could be wrong


----------



## GrizBe

Well I like the idea and concept, and as a 'fluff' player, I'll be taking at least one, just because from what I can see I like the model.

And theres always at least one moron who can't see the logic behind faking 2 seperate pcitures, with a bunch of options etc... theres very few people who'd waste they're time with that.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just wait till you see the rules for this thing and the wargear it can bring for the points cost. If you want to see a Daemon player cry just field 2 of these for 300pt vs a 1500pt Daemon army and laugh as you erase the Daemons from this dimension.
> 
> Then again, I could be wrong


I'm guessing then that the Psycannon thing is AP3 and ignores Invulnerable saves.
So basically, completely PWNS anything in the Daemons codex, other than the Soul Grinder.


----------



## bhsman

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just wait till you see the rules for this thing and the wargear it can bring for the points cost. If you want to see a Daemon player cry just field 2 of these for 300pt vs a 1500pt Daemon army and laugh as you erase the Daemons from this dimension.
> 
> Then again, I could be wrong


Ya gotta have principle! :ireful2: Seriously though I'd rather just use Purgation squads and Land Raiders, not a gundam, and don't say it's not because LOOK AT IT. :shok:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> I'm guessing then that the Psycannon thing is AP3 and ignores Invulnerable saves.
> So basically, completely PWNS anything in the Daemons codex, other than the Soul Grinder.


Dont forget it's Heavy 12 :crazy:

Oh, and can jump 30" once per game if you feel like getting close  lets not forget it has some psychic abilities as well


----------



## Winterous

bhsman said:


> Ya gotta have principle! :ireful2: Seriously though I'd rather just use Purgation squads and Land Raiders, not a gundam, and don't say it's not because LOOK AT IT. :shok:


It's not, LOOK AT IT.








That's what it looks like, not a bloody mecha with a completely internal pilot.


----------



## Vhalyar

bhsman said:


> Seriously though I'd rather just use Purgation squads and Land Raiders, not a gundam, and don't say it's not because LOOK AT IT. :shok:


That's why I like it :3
Although I think it looks more like something out of Battletech, not Gundam. Well except for the giant sword.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Dont forget it's Heavy 12 :crazy:
> 
> Oh, and can jump 30" once per game if you feel like getting close  lets not forget it has some psychic abilities as well


Well it still remains to be seen how much it actually costs. 130 seems to be the base with two fists, not the incinerator or psycannon. Although even at 200 points it'd still be nasty.


----------



## Azezel

Take three of them, three dreads and Karamazov on the throne of Judgement.

Opponent: Are you here to play 40k or Mechwarrior?


Mind you, I'm just glad it's big enough not to get a cover-save against my Exorcists.


----------



## bhsman

Winterous said:


> It's not, LOOK AT IT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what it looks like, not a bloody mecha with a completely internal pilot.


First stage is denial...:spiteful:



Azezel said:


> Take three of them, three dreads and Karamazov on the throne of Judgement.


+Henchmen as troops with Coteaz as the other HQ
+Stormravens as FA
=The mercenaries from AVATAR 

:shok:


----------



## Azezel

bhsman said:


> First stage is denial...:spiteful:
> 
> 
> 
> +Henchmen as troops with Coteaz as the other HQ
> +Stormravens as FA
> =The mercenaries from AVATAR
> 
> :shok:


That doesn't fit. You see, Karamazov has an orbital bombardment, and Colonel Quaritch was too stupid to use his _orbital shuttle_ to drop a bomb from more than 100 feet up.


----------



## StalkerZero

Well, I'm sold. Prerelease cannot happen soon enough.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Katie Drake said:


> Okay everybody, sorry for the rather significant delay. Won't go into details as I'm sure nobody cares anyway.
> 
> Now before anyone bitches about quality, realize that these photos were taken by a webcam... of images on an iPad or something. So yes, they're blurry. Yes, they're the only ones available so deal with it.
> 
> Special thanks to *LTP* for the Heresy Online watermark.
> 
> *Grey Knight Codex Cover:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Grey Knight army picture:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the one everyone wants to see, the *Dreadknight*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope everyone enjoys.
> 
> Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves.


You are epic milady. That is all.


----------



## Logyn

We love you Katie. And if games workshop started selling gold plated models for a dollar each, the assholes on /tg would bitch that it wasn't high enough karat. 

Thank you for the pictures. I keep having to wipe the drool off my keyboard.


----------



## Azkaellon

Let the firing Begin!! Also I don't love her D: or anyone! logyn stop being so nice it makes the likes of me and stella uncomfortable


----------



## Baron Spikey

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Let the firing Begin!! Also I don't love her D: or anyone! logyn stop being so nice it makes the likes of me and stella uncomfortable


Woo Katie is getting fired! She doesn't work for GW but hoo boy we all know other companies hate it when people put up pics of unreleased models on wargaming sites.


----------



## Lucian Kain

*Grey Knight army picture:*










That looks ballanced/flexable and scary,I wonder how it will do against the Leaf Blower lists?...but who cares *it just drips with *AWESOME!!!
Oh and to all the people who said I was making it up and lying... go fuck yourselves. [/QUOTE]
AS WELL THEY SHOULD,but if it provoked you to post the images then I'm kinda gratefull.I'm sure you would have anyway.
Golden:victory:SUPERWOMAN

(I'm trying to makeout the sponsons on the Landraider???)


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Am I allowed to post it in another Forum?


----------



## Katie Drake

Akhara'Keth said:


> Am I allowed to post it in another Forum?


Nobody can stop you.  It's why the Heresy Online watermarks are there.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Awesome! Thanks! Now the German community gets informed, too^^


----------



## ShadowsandDust

I wonder how much this mechadeath machine will be:/

Can see GW charging insane amounts of money for GKs just because they're elite and people won't be buying loads of them. 
hope not.


----------



## Kalshinko

I could see them charging more, or they will just package them in 5 man squads.


----------



## Astorath333

holy tits :shok:


----------



## Tuatara

Akhara'Keth said:


> Am I allowed to post it in another Forum?


Or do what I did and posted a link to this one.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

There has been some question as to what has been worked on as far as sisters go:

Harry told me that sisters were being worked on in some form about 6 months prior to stickmonkey's first post about the veiled sister prototype. 

They may never have gotten past that beta stage at that time, but If I remember correctly, He hinted that more was being done once GKs were finished, though again that could just be very preliminary stuff, or he may not have known Jes was going to take his break.

On a side note:

I do hope the rumors of plastic Penitent engines is true, my top heavy metal ones keep falling over and breaking.


----------



## HOBO

Thanks KD, something concrete at last.
Hopefully the Dreadknight will look better in person because it's a bit meh...I hope it's more posable for a start.

Plastic GK(T)'s look like they'll fit nicely with the current metals...sighs of relief from several of my friends who've just seen the pics.


----------



## Mathai

Well great, I was thinking I'd only get one DreadKnight and be content, but now I have to dispute between two or three! I already want a Crusader to Taxi my Pallies in style, so I suppose two...but that thing is just too awesome!

Heh heh heh, I may be the only one to be thankfull the pictures are not in perfect focus. If we had perfect clarity so far before the release date, I just dont know what I'd do. Waiting for Dark Eldar to release was hard enough and I dont even play them! x.x I've loved Grey Knights since before I even played Warhammer 40K, this new codex has really got me excited.


----------



## Kobrakai

Great promising shots of the new GK's, Can't wait for the pre-order stuff to come up now!


----------



## oiad

Tuatara said:


> Or do what I did and posted a link to this one.


Agreed. People have taken the pictures and reposted them over every other english-speaking WH40k forum anyway. So not much will hold you back. Despite the watermark, I'd be kind enough to still pay some respects to the source.


----------



## KingDeath

Meh, while the Dreadknight is less ugly than the abominable Stormraven i still think it's a stupid idea which would be more fitting for the Tau.
Ah well, let's see how the rest of the codex will shape up, with a bit luck the amount of idiocy will be lower than in the Bloodangels/Spacewolf dexes.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

oiad said:


> Agreed. People have taken the pictures and reposted them over every other english-speaking WH40k forum anyway. So not much will hold you back. Despite the watermark, I'd be kind enough to still pay some respects to the source.


When I posted the pictures of the Dark Eldar art I received no thanks at all, the pictures ended up on every single forum with a rumours thread yet hardly any of them said where they got them. This is why I now days suggest watermarking everything.

BoK has come out with a rumour, who is writing the Grey Knight codex, its apparently Matt Ward



> Yeah I know it has been hinted elsewhere, but just want to throw a confirmation to what many of you already know.
> 
> As always just give credit where credit comes. Magic Marker and have fun!
> Matt Ward


Could someone remind me of what else he has done?


----------



## Winterous

Is Matt Ward a good or bad one?


----------



## Synack

Most recently, Blood Angels.

Expect plenty of Doomfist, Nemesis Greatswords, etc, etc.


----------



## KingDeath

Winterous said:


> Is Matt Ward a good or bad one?


His fluff is atrocious but he isn't too bad when it comes to rules.
So expect a competitive codex with plenty of wtf moments when
it comes to the fluff.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

well he is no CS Goto ... :biggrin:


----------



## Blood sergeant

MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK has come out with a rumour, who is writing the Grey Knight codex, its apparently Matt Ward


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! 

Come on dude stay away from my codeces... Like the BA desecration wasn't enough.

Well, if it is indeed him expect to see lots of powerful upgrades that will also cost a lot. And the worst part is that if you don't take the extra upgrades then you don't utilize the codex's one strength. And that again if you are lucky enough to have the OPTION not to get the upgrades (see all vehicles fast for an extra 15 points each, prefixed). 

We will also get Monstrous Independent Characters that will also cost shit loads of points and oh wait.. yeah they won't even have the Ic rule after all. So they will wonder on their own prey to mass melta/plasma fire (in the case of Mephiston or prey to plain rapid firing bolters (in the case of the Sanguinor). 

Oh and finally he is the man who single handedly made the most iconic unit of the BA completely worthless. And to those that disagree I will give them that the death company is more powerful now but since you don't control them there is not even an argument here.

/Rant off

Bottom line is if he has not learned his lesson with the BA codex there are going to be a lot of "imba" stuff but there is always going to be catch in each case.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> And the one everyone wants to see, the *Dreadknight*:



AutoKnights - roll out!


----------



## Brovius

MadCowCrazy said:


> When I posted the pictures of the Dark Eldar art I received no thanks at all, the pictures ended up on every single forum with a rumours thread yet hardly any of them said where they got them. This is why I now days suggest watermarking everything.


That's because they're filthy xenos. We're all chivalrous knights 





MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK has come out with a rumour, who is writing the Grey Knight codex, its apparently Matt Ward
> 
> 
> 
> Could someone remind me of what else he has done?


Expect "The Grey Knights are second only to the mighty Ultramarines, lords of Macragge!"
Or even worse "The Grey Knights are really the Ultramarines' first company, stoic veterans who proudly serve their Chapter, and their spiritual liege, Robute Guilliman."

So we're probably looking at weapon options such as Grey Lances, Daemonfists, Nemesis Boots, and the dreaded Nemesis Force Gauntlets of Titanmar.

He better not be writing the GK codex. I've already had the rules for my Tyranids destroyed, and now the fluff behind my Grey Knights, too. This is too much to handle.


*EDIT:* I just realised something. Rumors suggest that we're dropping to basic tactical marine statlines, and are losing our S6 close combat weapons. This is a pretty big nerf to most of us, it almost seems like someone is trying to make the Grey Knights weaker... Now who would do that? I'd say it is someone who is an extreme Imperial fanboy, who believes their army is the best and strongest, and all others aspire to be just like them...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You need to consider pretty much all GK squads have the psychic power hammerhand which gives them +1str if the rumours are true. This would basically make them S5 most of the time, 9 times out of 12 for most normal GK at least.


----------



## Winterous

Brovius said:


> I've already had the rules for my Tyranids destroyed


*snort*
BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!
Oh man, nice joke.

Carnifexes were nerfed in cost hugely, Hive Tyrants were changed in role and made a lot more expensive, EVERYTHING ELSE WAS IMPROVED MASSIVELY!



MadCowCrazy said:


> 9 times out of 12


Soo....
3/4?


----------



## OpTi

you should also consider that GK's needed to be either buffed up lot making the army even smaller due to higher points costs, or made a little weaker with more options so we could fit in more stuff.

The most logical route as a buisness is to make them weaker so we need to buy more stuff and tbh having an exteremely elite army would most likely be horrible due to luck of the dice, 1-2 unlucky rolls and half your army is gone. Look at IG as an example, you kill a chimera with a lucky shot, oh well he has 3-4 more filled with vets nevermind.

GK's needed to have some basic troops that didn't take up too many points so you CAN take the really expensive powerful units.


----------



## oiad

MadCowCrazy said:


> When I posted the pictures of the Dark Eldar art I received no thanks at all, the pictures ended up on every single forum with a rumours thread yet hardly any of them said where they got them. This is why I now days suggest watermarking everything.


Obviously I'm one of a handful of players with a few manners left then. 

Okay, let rip with statements that courtesy is a dead tradition...



MadCowCrazy said:


> BoK has come out with a rumour, who is writing the Grey Knight codex, its apparently Matt Ward... Could someone remind me of what else he has done?


For 5th Ed. - Codex: Space Marines & Codex Blood Angels. He has also worked on the BRB and WHFB publications.

Ugh, is this really true?


----------



## Frank Fugger

Mat Ward wrote the new GK Codex? Which means the Grey Knights are now an Ultramarines successor Chapter and the Inquisition was founded by Rowboat Girlyman. That's great. Anyone want to buy some Grey Knights?

On a lighter note if they gave the GK book to Mat Ward it might mean Phil Kelly will get the Sisters book. Every cloud and all that.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd think that Matt is probably just a contributer rather then main writer.. afterall, he did the last big codex update, chances are with all the writers GW has, they'd not have the same one writing every codex in a row as main writer.

Besides, as pointed out, his fluff may be iffy, but his rules are awesome.

Also, Opti nailed it. Making basic troops cheaper, so you can hav eto have more of them, but so you can feild bigger, more expensive units is good from a business point of view. 

If GK's were 1000 points for say 2 squads of troops... yes they'd be uber-badass, but 2 squads of troops isn't going to earn any money for GW if thats all anyone ever needs now is it? Plus... as we know, the big kits and vehicles are where GW tends to make more money these days.


----------



## ManlyMoose

I thought it was Robin Cruddace who was penning this book. Either way, love the pics, thanks katie!


----------



## Frank Fugger

GrizBe said:


> Besides, as pointed out, his fluff may be iffy, but his rules are awesome.


I wouldn't go that far. He doesn't break Codices in the same way as Alessio used to, but his books aren't a patch on the stuff Phil Kelly puts out.


----------



## tu_shan82

By the looks of it there's parts for a terminator standard bearer and apothecary, I guess I'll be waiting and hoping that there part of the plastic kit and not metals, and also that said plastics are compatible with the current plastic termies so I can use them on my Deathwing meaning I won't have to convert them. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Azezel

Reds8n says that Ward being the author of C:GK tallies with what he's heard.

Did GW just give him every space marine book and let him get on with it?


----------



## Slinky

Azezel said:


> Reds8n says that Ward being the author of C:GK tallies with what he's heard.
> 
> Did GW just give him every space marine book and let him get on with it?


Looking that way...


----------



## bhsman

He didn't write Codex: Space Wolves.

But he did write Codex: Blood Angels, and after taking away Veteran Assault Squads and just ctrl+c/ctrl+v the Sternguard/Vanguard as well as the dumb rules for Red Thirst, it killed my urge to play the army.

Now he's got his claws in the redo of the first army I ever played, and now we're stuck with it and the stupid as hell gundam for a few years. Goddammit.


----------



## IanC

Gundam? where, where?!

I like the Dreadknight. I have nothing to say about Matt Ward, cept that I don't get the hatred. C:SM and C:BA seem fine to me.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Compare and contrast the Dark Eldar and Space Wolves books with anything Matt Ward has released. Hell, even the IG book.

You will then understand the hatred. I can build a Space Wolves army that is a Space Wolves army, yet my Blood Angels army is basically an Ultramarines army with red stripes and jet packs.

"Just as planned...", says Matt, clasping his fingers in that oh-so-evil way.

Also noteworthy IMHO is that Biker armies were Phil Kelly's idea. Just sayin'.

The DreadKnight is bad and GW should feel bad for plagarising Optimus Prime.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Frank Fugger said:


> Compare and contrast the Dark Eldar and Space Wolves books with anything Matt Ward has released. Hell, even the IG book.
> 
> You will then understand the hatred. I can build a Space Wolves army that is a Space Wolves army, yet my Blood Angels army is basically an Ultramarines army with red stripes and jet packs.
> 
> "Just as planned...", says Matt, clasping his fingers in that oh-so-evil way.
> 
> Also noteworthy IMHO is that Biker armies were Phil Kelly's idea. Just sayin'.
> 
> The DreadKnight is bad and GW should feel bad for plagarising Optimus Prime.


Oh god being able to build a Codex Chapter that's similar in some ways to another Codex Chapter, the horror.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Baron Spikey said:


> Oh god being able to build a Codex Chapter that's similar in some ways to another Codex Chapter, the horror.


By "some ways" you mean "all ways except FC Apothecaries, an aeroplane and Assault Squads as Troops".


EDIT: Also consider that there is very little dead wood in the DE or SW Codexes. You can, in most cases with very few exceptions, pick any unit out of those books and think "that'd work"; even the special characters add something to your army. The SM and BA Codexes by contrast have a bunch of Captain Falcons that do precisely nothing aside from eating up points and wasting your time.


----------



## Hurricane

-Stormravens
-Furiosos / Death Company Dreads / Dread libbys
-Fast vehicles
-Death Company
-Sanguinary Guard
-Baal Preds
-Unique special characters
-Unique psychic powers
-DoA

I don't even play Blood Angels and I can think of plenty of unique attributes they have. I personally like the BA codex (read but again have not played) and I'm still looking forward to the GK if the same author is writing it. 

Also, I think the dreadknight looks fantastic! I really don't care for the stubby regular dreads that GW currently has. I'm definitely looking to pick up 2-3 when they release.


----------



## Azezel

Frank Fugger said:


> yet my Blood Angels army is basically an Ultramarines army with red stripes and jet packs.


I have to side with the Baron, Old Man. The Blood Angels _are_ just Ultramarines with red armour.

I've only leafed through the BA codex, but unlike the SW codex, every page did not make me want to point and laugh. Whatever problems the BAs have don't seem to be the author's fault, so much as a symptom of taking one army and trying to s-t-r-e-t-c-h it into half a dozen codices (q.v. deep-striking Land Raiders and flying Dreads). You can't blame Ward for reaching a bit there.

'Dreadknight' is a very silly name, but we cannot blame Ward, or any other author for its existence, since without it and a few other gimmics, GK would be, well, Ultramarines with Grey armour.


And I don't think anyone could argue that the Dreadknight is worse than Space Marines riding wolves... Glass is half full, people.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Azezel said:


> I have to side with the Baron, Old Man. The Blood Angels _are_ just Ultramarines with red armour.


Indeed. Why bother to make a Codex for them then? The old free one was sufficient.



> I've only leafed through the BA codex, but unlike the SW codex, every page did not make me want to point and laugh. Whatever problems the BAs have don't seem to be the author's fault, so much as a symptom of taking one army and trying to s-t-r-e-t-c-h it into half a dozen codices (q.v. deep-striking Land Raiders and flying Dreads). You can't blame Ward for reaching a bit there.


It's funny, because you're talking fluff. I'm talking a mixture of both.

Are Thunderwolf Cavalry a silly notion? They most certainly are, and trying to convert them is a pain. Stick them on the table though and they will take a chunk out of anything. It's almost impolite to force a SW player to roll dice when he charges his Cavalry Lord at... well, anything you have that isn't an AV13-14 vehicle. You should just pick it up and put it back in the case to save time.

Don't like the Cavalry? That's fine; Grey Hunters can do close combat too, although they're usually killing stuff that charges AT them rather than killing stuff they've charged AT, and with tooled-up GH squads you can afford to bring along a lot more long range AT dice alongside the Powerfists. Then there are Blood Claws armies, Loganwing armies... hell you could probably even squeeze a workable army out of Canis Wolfborn if you tried hard enough.

Every single unit in every single slot in the Space Wolves army book is good. Even the few bad ones (Ragnar, for example). It's not just good because "hey dude that's cool"; it's because it sticks to the backstory at the same time as it's handing you your backside on a plate. It's just a really, really good book.

Blood Angels don't even compare. You get two builds and The Sanguinor, or you can take Dante so's your useless statue-men are Troops. Yay?



> 'Dreadknight' is a very silly name, but we cannot blame Ward, or any other author for its existence, since without it and a few other gimmics, GK would be, well, Ultramarines with Grey armour.


Aside from, y'know... the fact they're not even remotely like Ultramarines in either fluff or game terms and never have been.


----------



## Bindi Baji

even I, patron saint of wandering off topic, am getting a bit bored of this now being the beige/red/blue/gold marine thread


----------



## Dynamike

Sooo back on GK topic... With what we've seen so far, do you think foot GKs would be a viable option?

Seems a bit more like it if you can use so many different kind of units maybe backed up with dreadnuts and deadknights.


----------



## TheSpore

Bindi Baji said:


> even I, patron saint of wandering off topic, am getting a bit bored of this now being the beige/red/blue/gold marine thread


I agree!!! Personally im tired of every flippin chapter in the SM getting a codex.


----------



## raven925

I have been thinking... why are those black squares on two of the pics? are they hiding something?


----------



## Baron Spikey

raven925 said:


> I have been thinking... why are those black squares on two of the pics? are they hiding something?


yes- Katie's face (I kid you not)


----------



## raven925

Baron Spikey said:


> yes- Katie's face (I kid you not)


Hmmm, i thought so. Thanks for clarifying that.k:


----------



## HOBO

tu_shan82 said:


> By the looks of it there's parts for a terminator standard bearer and apothecary, I guess I'll be waiting and hoping that there part of the plastic kit and not metals, and also that said plastics are compatible with the current plastic termies so I can use them on my Deathwing meaning I won't have to convert them. Fingers crossed.


Amen to that brother...Terminator Apothecary ftw...(I hate how my one turned out).


----------



## StalkerZero

I hope foot GK are viable. I also hope that a very heavy elite army is viable out of this codex. If I can get away with Terminators being the lowest point costing selection in my list I'll be a happy camper. If I can get away with a viable build with Paladins being the lowest point costing selection I'll probably write a thank you letter to GW.


----------



## Deadgaurdian

Oh my god that dread knight looks amazing. Here's to another 300 dollars out the window as I am crying all the way home.


----------



## Doelago

Are they changing the color scheme for them? It just did not look all that "silverish" on the pics...


----------



## GrizBe

Yeah, they've darkened the colour scheme for them to fit the 'Grey Knight' ethic better.


----------



## Doelago

GrizBe said:


> Yeah, they've darkened the colour scheme for them to fit the 'Grey Knight' ethic better.


----------



## OpTi

doesn't stop you from painting them silver...


----------



## Baron Spikey

It's more a Brushed Steel colour tone rather than Polished Silver.


----------



## Doelago

OpTi said:


> doesn't stop you from painting them silver...


Ouh, it pretty much does, as I want to paint them following the guides provided in White Dwarf, so if it is different, I will paint them differently. :hang1:


----------



## StalkerZero

I think it's fate that the GW sprues are grey. Mine shall truly be Grey Knights. 

I know trying to paint them I'll just ruin them.


----------



## KingDeath

Anyone knows if PAGKs realy only get a single attack?


----------



## Khorne's Fist

That dreadknight doesn't look to be up to much. The penitent engine was bad enough. The whole Optimus Prime vibe does not sit well in 40k. A few juicy upgrades for a GK dread would have been more than enough.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have bought some Chrome airbrush paint I'm going to try on my Grey Knights


----------



## Brovius

Khorne's Fist said:


> That dreadknight doesn't look to be up to much. The penitent engine was bad enough. The whole Optimus Prime vibe does not sit well in 40k. A few juicy upgrades for a GK dread would have been more than enough.


If you hate the idea so much, don't field it. No-one's forcing you to. They did away with the 1+ choices in 5th ed


----------



## Katie Drake

KingDeath said:


> Anyone knows if PAGKs realy only get a single attack?


1 Attack, but pack force weapons and can cast Hammerhand for +1S. It's not nearly as bad as it sounds.


----------



## KingDeath

Katie Drake said:


> 1 Attack, but pack force weapons and can cast Hammerhand for +1S. It's not nearly as bad as it sounds.


Meh, this plainly sucks. Sure, forceweapons sound good, until you fight something which doesn't wear powerarmour. The decreased weaponskill and the lower strenght ( psychic powers aren't exactly reliable ) and only one attack mean that PAGKs became even worse than they are now. Well, are they at the very least cheaper or can we finally count em out as effective troops?


----------



## GrizBe

You forget they still have stormbolters... so anything not in power-armour, your gonna mince before they get to you in combat


----------



## Katie Drake

KingDeath said:


> Meh, this plainly sucks. Sure, forceweapons sound good, until you fight something which doesn't wear powerarmour. The decreased weaponskill and the lower strenght ( psychic powers aren't exactly reliable ) and only one attack mean that PAGKs became even worse than they are now. Well, are they at the very least cheaper or can we finally count em out as effective troops?





GrizBe said:


> You forget they still have stormbolters... so anything not in power-armour, your gonna mince before they get to you in combat


Basically this ^. Power Armored Grey Knights are significantly cheaper than they are now and still pack storm bolters, so large units of lightly armored models won't be a problem. If they manage to get into combat with you before you can reduce their numbers... yeah, that's a n issue but no unit is good at everything (not even Grey Hunters). Also, Incinerators are silly good in the new 'Dex, so I wouldn't worry too much about things like Orks or Gaunts.


----------



## Dynamike

With the base cost lowered, you will have plenty of guns and attacks to counter whatever you can face. Doesn't mean you kill everything with them. You will still need to use your different units again the different threats you're facing.

Some says having only 1 attack sucks. Well the GKs aren't running around with only their fists either. As was said before, they have stormbolters to shoot away and can use different powers. Most importantly, they can be supported by other units like heavy units to decrease the difference in bodies. 

I think it would be pretty boring if every units could face every menace. For a squad of 5 GKs right now you have to pay 25 points each for the 4 first ones + 50 points for the justicar for a total of 150. According to what was said 5 GK should be around 100 points. What you are going to do with those 50 points is up to you but at least you have some margin to add to them the way you want it. The difference is even bigger if you make groups of 10. While it is 275 right now you might be able to get them for around 200. I'm pretty sure 75 points as upgrades or additional units can easily compensate for losing an attack and minor changes.


----------



## OpTi

it's currently 16 pts for a regular marine, with the new PAGK at 20 pts your paying 4pts for a storm bolter, a power weapon, and a psychic power that give +1S tbh i think thats freaking awesome and makes my basic troops cheap yet effective with the added bonus of freeing up points for more of the nastier stuff from the rest of the army.


----------



## soulreaver296

ws5 and 2 "base" attacks really did differentiate them from vanilla marines, and it WILL be sorely missed by myself, at least. As I have said, this is becoming more like "Codex: Pimped Marines", than "Codex: Marine Elites" (which is what the other felt like to me)

edit: I know I will more likely than not accept and hopefully like/love the new codex, but no guarantee that i won't bitch when my power weapon misses on a 3+ against ws4, or fail to wound by 1 pip on the die, or get stuck in with a horde and be stuck grinding through them


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From Bolter and Chainsword:


Nemesis Weapons, as far as I know are Force Weapons. HOWEVER, because of how Brotherhood of Psykers works (A unit casts a psychic power as a singular entity) I believe this means that only one weapon can become a Force Weapon per turn (If you so choose to use it over Hammerhands), and the rest are power weapons. Still, nothing to sneeze at.

-Nemesis Halberd: +1 Initiative
-Nemesis Daemonhammer: +1 Strength
-Nemesis Falchions: Force Lightning Claws
-Nemesis Warding Stave: Power weapon that conveys a 2++ Invulnerable save. (I know. Madness.) They\'re 25-20 points per depending on the squad.
-Daemonhammer - This entry confuses me. There\'s both a Nemesis Daemonhammer and a regular Daemonhammer, but as far as I know, this one is a Thunderhammer with Daemonbane.

Psyk-Out grenades reduce morale of the unit they attack, I believe, but that one is the one i\'m the most unsure on.


----------



## Irbian

Agg, you beat me for like 4 minutes

Internet is too fast..


----------



## Necrosis

I believe the warding stave only gives an invu in close combat.


----------



## Azkaellon

So far i am Completely and Utterly Unimpressed, But at the same time at least this army will draw the power gamers from an army with good fluff like the blood angels.


----------



## Irbian

More from the same. A thiink there is nothing new here:



> Inquisitor Coteaz allows you to have Henchman warbands as troops. There are NO Inquisitorial Stormtroops, but you can take Warrior Acolytes who you can arm with Hot-Shot Lasguns if it makes you feel any better. It's a meh option at best. Crusaders Squad spam is going to be extremely prevalent I fear. You can take them as troops for plasma pistol cost per Crusader. Storm Shields and Power weapons. Each. It's going to be a mess.
> 
> Falchions are taken in PAIRS as in the entry is "A pair of Nemesis Falchions" so yeah. I think Stormbolters act as pistols for the GKs as per the previous codex. Nemesis Force Sword is just a power weapon as far as I know. That was what it looked like when I last paged through the armoury section. Plus, why would Halberds and Nemesis Daemonhammers cost +5 points then? They'd be free as a tradeoff.
> 
> I'll check the next time I see it as to what the Brotherhood Banner and the Heavy Pyscannon and Gatling Psilencer do. Psybolt Ammo ignores invulnerable saves I BELIEVE. Not sure. I'll check the next time I see, so no one get all worked up about it just yet. Master Crafted weapons work the same as they always have, and even GKSS Justicars can MC their weapons. The Paladin Nemesis weapons aren't any different than the ones I already listed.
> 
> Henchman are Elites without Coteaz, but I wouldn't worry as far as that goes. The Elite section is pretty balanced so unless you want to go Paladin Spam (And honestly, if you do just take the Supreme Grandmaster Draigo he makes them troops anyway. Ven Dreads are meh, Purifiers are one of my favorites, but only as Troops. Dreads can be taken as Heavies, so really, you can choose between Assassins (Only one per type, they're Unique), a Techmarine, and Henchman Warbands. And the warbands are pretty diverse as far as things go.
> 
> Also, Astral Aim, your target gets a 4+ Cover save. Not sure if that was mentioned yet or not.
> 
> I'll get back to you guys on the wargear when I get a pass by it again. Anything else? I'll try and answer what I can.


----------



## Vhalyar

Witch King of Angmar said:


> an army with good fluff like the blood angels.


Blood Angels? The ones who went from being noble artists with the dark secret of vampirism to wannabe World Eaters "RAH RAH RAH BLOOD!"? Good? :grin:

And thanks Irbian for the quotes, hopefully that person digs up more wargear information. The Brotherhood Banner and Psilencer in particular I'm curious about.


----------



## StalkerZero

I am a little torn on the "casting as a group" idea. I understand that a full squad of GK, each running around with a force weapon and being able to potentially ID 10 things a turn in close combat, is pretty over powered. 

But, it ruins my dream starting army quite a bit. 

I was picturing 20 Paladins dropping Holocaust and then assaulting. That was my way to have some fun, try out the army a bit, and keep it cheap but have a 1500 point list. 

I don't think that idea could be any bit successful (not that it was going to be great) only dropping four of those templates per turn. Twenty-one models at 1500 points will probably roll over to Horde armies and Mech would give that list absolute fits.


----------



## Katie Drake

StalkerZero said:


> I don't think that idea could be any bit successful (not that it was going to be great) only dropping four of those templates per turn. Twenty-one models at 1500 points will probably roll over to Horde armies and Mech would give that list absolute fits.


The thing with Grey Knights is that they _have no models_ in that their army size is very small. We've all heard it before how every casualty hurts in a Space Marine army, but in this case it's actually true. Every time an Ork gets lucky and bags a Grey Knight with a stray shoota shot it will really hurt.

As for Mech lists, Knights don't need to be too worried by them (at least not to the point where it's an auto-lose situation). Psycannons are good at cracking open basically anything and I'd expect most players to be running squads of 10 PAGKs with 2 psycannons for this exact reason. Terminators are good too, but still only get one psycannon per five models, so PAGK are going to be a very fire support geared unit (especially when you take into account special ammunition).

It's a large adjustment from the old book, but the new Grey Knights will function best when the Knights in power armor are used as support units while the Terminators do the really heavy lifting.


----------



## Coyote77

Doelago said:


> Ouh, it pretty much does, as I want to paint them following the guides provided in White Dwarf, so if it is different, I will paint them differently. :hang1:


So the only thing stopping you from painting them silver is you.


----------



## Vhalyar

Commissar Ciaphas Cain at B&C ended up answering a whole bunch of my questions, clearing up a lot of little details that were vague.


Commissar Ciaphas Cain said:


> -Dreadknight comes with (And this is how you know Ward did it) two Nemesis Doomfists as default.
> 
> -Grey Knight Strike Squad Options:
> -For every five:
> -Psilencer (Free!)
> -Psycannon
> -Incinerator
> 
> -All the Nemesis weapons (Any model!)
> -Various point costs
> 
> -Psybolt Ammo
> -Personal Teleporters
> -Justicar can MC any of his weapons
> 
> -Henchmen, upon further examination don't take up a FoC slot but you MUST have an Inquisitor to get a Warband (One warband for each Inquisitor you have). And there's no limitations, so yes you might see Daemonhost, an Arco, and a Mystic in one group.
> 
> -Assassins DO take up an Elite slot.
> 
> -Librarian can take all of the powers and can be upgraded to Mastery Level 3 allowing him to cast 3 per turn. Also, he comes default in Terminator Armour. AND can take all of the various Nemesis weapons.
> 
> -Thawn, no, but he is Mastery Level 2. Not sure why, as Hammerhands is the only power outside of I Shall Not Yield that he has.
> 
> Also, before I list this, if I'm over the line at all, PLEASE tell me so I can remove what's necessary not to get my butt kicked.
> 
> -Valeria has a LOOOOOT of equipment. Here it is:
> -She's an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
> -Also, Stubborn
> -Stats: 4 4 3 3 3 4 3(5) 10 3+
> -Power Armour; Frag, Krak, & Psyk-Out Nades; Laspistol
> -*Graviton Pistol*: Range: 12" Strength: 10 AP: 1 Type: Pistol, One Shot
> -Jacked it from an Alien Weaponsmith in the Ultima Segmentum apparently.
> -*Runes of Destiny*: ALL (Armour or invul) Successful saves against her shooting or CC attacks must be rerolled.
> -Eldar Runes she's taken over her career, but she ain't got no wraithbone batteries to make em work at full power
> -*Dagger of Midnight*: Grants +2A (Included in profile) that MUST be rolled with different colored dice (Or separate I suppose) because if she rolls doubles with them, the attacks hit her instead.
> -Stole this from an Eldar Pirate's corpse. Apparently the dagger is "controlled by a rebellious and bloodthirsty intelligence". Please perform an "Oogedy boogedy boo" after reading that.
> -*Hyperstone Maz*e: Can be used once per game in lieu of her CC attacks. Must be directed towards a character or MC in B2B contact. Target must roll a d6 and roll equal to or below their remaining wounds or be "trapped in the maze forever" AKA removed from play.
> -Multi-faceted emerald that leads to a spooky sub-dimension, apparently
> -*Forceshield*: 4+ Invul save
> -Hand-mounted forcefield thingy.
> 
> Also, randomly enough, they can take Ordo Xenos inquisitors. Weird.
> 
> -And yes, VenDreads are the only ones with Reinforced Aegis
> 
> 
> Edit: Justicars are in. True Grit is out as far as RULE goes, but I think Stormbolters count as pistols for them anyway.





Commissar Ciaphas Cain said:


> Vindicare Info:
> 
> -Move Through Cover, Fleet, Infiltrate, Fearless, Uncanny Reflexes (4+ Invul)
> -Deadshot: In Soviet Russia, Vindicare shoots you. Kidding, the Vindicare's player picks who he hits, not the opposing player.
> -Blind Grenades
> -Exitus Pistol: 12" S: X AP:1 Pistol, Sniper
> -Exitus Rifle: 36" S:X AP: 1 Sniper, Heavy 1
> -Rounds: Must Declare which round before rolling to hit
> -Hellfire: 2+ to wound
> -Shieldbreaker: Takes no damage, but PERMANENTLY removes Invul saves granted by items or wargeat
> -Turbo-Penetrator: Inflicts 2 wounds on any non-vehicle model wounded. Has penetration of 4D6 against vehicles!





Commissar Ciaphas Cain' said:


> I Shall Not Yield! only works on Thawn, sorry.
> 
> As for the other assassins:
> 
> Eversor:
> -Neuro Gauntlet: Counts as Lightning Claw
> -Frenzon: Gain d6 attacks on the turn they charge instead of 1
> -Meltabombs
> -Furious Charge
> -Executioner Pistol: 12" S4 AP2 Pistol, Poisoned (2+)
> 
> Cadillus:
> -C'Tan Phase Blade: Power Weapon. Instant Death against unsaved wounds regardless of Toughness
> -Neural Shredder: Template S8 AP 1 Pistol Hits are resolved against Leadership not Toughness. Can't hurt vehicles.
> -Polymorphine: When the assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. Chosen unit immediately takes D6 S4 AP 2 hits. Then the assassin is placed anywhere within 3" using Deepstrike rules but does not scatter.
> -Hit and Run & Stealth
> 
> Cullexus:
> -Psyk-Out Nades, Psyocculum (<- Not actually sure what that does)
> -Animus Speculum: 12" S5 AP1 Assault 2. For every psyker within 12" of the assassin, add 2+ to the Speculum's assault value
> -Etherium: Any unit wishing to shoot or use a psychic power on the Cullexus must pass an LD test on 3d6 (Vehicles count as LD10). If the test is failed they can't target the assassin but can target others.





Commissar Ciaphas said:


> -Jaon on Dakka Dakka: Assassins can be taken in any of the 3 elite slots, but each is UNIQUE thus only one per TYPE of assassin.
> 
> Grandmaster: 6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+
> 
> Brother Captain is the same minus a BS point.
> 
> Libbies, see GM stat line -1 WS -2 BS -1W -1I -1A
> 
> What, no one cares about the Brotherhood Champion? For shame!
> 
> BC and GM can take Psycannon, Incinerator, Psilencer, Servo Skulls (Up to 3), Blind Grenades, meltabombs, digi weapons, psybolt ammo, empyraen brain mines, psychostroke or rad grenades, and an Orbital Strike Relay. Oh and MC weapons. And all three are alll in Termi armour.
> 
> EDIT: Fluff questions! You're my hero. I'll answer the Dreadknight one for Brevity's sake, I'll answer the others later, if you guys come up with a list.
> 
> No one knows where they come from, be it Xenos or Dark Age of Technology stuff. The GKs basically refuse to say and tell everyone to F off who asks where they came from. They're basically used as Jes said on Warseer, to go toe to toe with big nasties like Daemon Princes and such. And apparently this thing is super hard to master so that's why we don't see more.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Ok, so I am currently in a game, against a GK list, made with a compilation of every rumour findable. and so far, it's pretty cheese/lame GK terms, with 2W, and rending psycans are ruining my day. oh, and they're troops, with some lord draigo guy.


----------



## Vhalyar

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Ok, so I am currently in a game, against a GK list, made with a compilation of every rumour findable. and so far, it's pretty cheese/lame GK terms, with 2W, and rending psycans are ruining my day. oh, and they're troops, with some lord draigo guy.


Isn't it a bit early to come to these conclusions when we don't even know what half the wargear does?


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

See, I said, Im playing AGAINST believe me, im not enjoying, friend of mine just trolled the web the last few weeks, collecting rumours from tons of forums, and compiled them. True, he might be lieing. but if the dex comes out, half like this? I don't think I would play it too often. At least until I can field 20pt. Chaos lords as troops.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> See, I said, Im playing AGAINST believe me, im not enjoying, friend of mine just trolled the web the last few weeks, collecting rumours from tons of forums, and compiled them. True, he might be lieing. but if the dex comes out, half like this? I don't think I would play it too often. At least until I can field 20pt. Chaos lords as troops.


Well a lot of the rumors directly contradict the stuff I heard from the same person who gave me the Dreadknight pictures, so it likely won't end up just like the rumors are saying. It also typically takes time for people to adjust to the new tricks that armies can use when they're still new. Before long the Grey Knights will likely end up as just another 5th edition Codex.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Katie Drake said:


> Well a lot of the rumors directly contradict the stuff I heard from the same person who gave me the Dreadknight pictures, so it likely won't end up just like the rumors are saying. It also typically takes time for people to adjust to the new tricks that armies can use when they're still new. Before long the Grey Knights will likely end up as just another 5th edition Codex.


I don't know Katie, I have not been following these rumours to closely, but these termies, are like T4 2W 2+/4++ and FNP. not to mention I5 and can get Str5 power weapons, If that stays the same..I don't see it becoming "just another 5th ed' though I will admit what im saying sounds a lot like "OMFG JOTWW IS SO LAMEZ!" when wolves were new.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I don't know Katie, I have not been following these rumours to closely, but these termies, are like T4 2W 2+/4++ and FNP. not to mention I5 and can get Str5 power weapons, If that stays the same..I don't see it becoming "just another 5th ed' though I will admit what im saying sounds a lot like "OMFG JOTWW IS SO LAMEZ!" when wolves were new.


Yeah, but Paladins are silly expensive, so they should be able to murderize anything they touch. They'd be a terrible unit if they couldn't. This is why S8 AP2 or better weapons are nice.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

I'm talking to the guy now, and the unit is like 675, with an apothecary, and 2x psycans, for all that. but they lol'd through my entire army. I'll admit the rest is just like old GK's and no shrouding was nice. But why wouldn't somone take those then? Lol, I'll stop now, since I feel like im whining, I just hope they're dex isn't game breaking, with all these ablities I am hearing about.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I'm talking to the guy now, and the unit is like 675, with an apothecary, and 2x psycans, for all that. but they lol'd through my entire army. I'll admit the rest is just like old GK's and no shrouding was nice. But why wouldn't somone take those then? Lol, I'll stop now, since I feel like im whining, I just hope they're dex isn't game breaking, with all these ablities I am hearing about.


625 points. That's a _lot_ of points. Nob Bikers don't usually cost that much. That's almost half of his 1,500 point army. Your tactic to deal with something like that if you can't kill it is to either avoid it or simply mitigate the damage that it can cause.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Katie Drake said:


> 625 points. That's a _lot_ of points. Nob Bikers don't usually cost that much. That's almost half of his 1,500 point army. Your tactic to deal with something like that if you can't kill it is to either avoid it or simply mitigate the damage that it can cause.


Too true Katie, and I will defer to your greater gaming expertise on that one.

But even so, how do you feel about these rumours, if they're true? Im hearing things like DS within 12' of a GK libby is auto mishap, or Masters giving re-roll all 1's to a chosen squad, or best yet, they all have preferred enemy vs. Daemons.  

Like I said, I am not really in the loop at all, but this seems a little OTT even by "new codex" standards.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> But even so, how do you feel about these rumours, if they're true? Im hearing things like DS within 12' of a GK libby is auto mishap, or Masters giving re-roll all 1's to a chosen squad, or best yet, they all have preferred enemy vs. Daemons.


It's hard to say. So many of the rumors contradict each other and the stuff that I heard from my source that it's difficult to have an opinion on all the rumors in general. The craziness of mishapping every time you get too close to a Grey Knight unit is just silly and I don't believe it unless it's a small radius on a single unit or something. Re-rolling 1's I don't know about, Preferred Enemy: Daemons is fact (as far as I'm aware) and I really don't mind it either way.

A lot of the rumors are BS. This always happens whenever a new Codex is coming out. I guarantee that if you play say 5 games against this rumor-Dex and then 5 against the real thing afterward, the actual Codex won't seem half as bad. I have no doubt that it'll still be rock hard, but there's no way it'll be so overpowering that there's no chance for anyone to stop it.


----------



## Vanchet

Yea as katie said-the world needs balance and 40k books are no different
All I say is no to the Rending nemesis weapons


----------



## Mathai

Commissar Ciaphas Cain said:


> -Runes of Destiny: ALL (Armour or invul) Successful saves against her shooting or CC attacks must be rerolled.
> -Eldar Runes she's taken over her career, but she ain't got no wraithbone batteries to make em work at full power




Well all I can say is that as an Eldar player, I would love to have the 'powered up' version of those suckers. Hell I'd take the powered down versions here!





Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Ok, so I am currently in a game, against a GK list, made with a compilation of every rumour findable. and so far, it's pretty cheese/lame GK terms, with 2W, and rending psycans are ruining my day. oh, and they're troops, with some lord draigo guy.




Well here's another rumor then to fuel his army. I 'heard' that the Dreadknight's sword is a S10 C'Tan Phase Sword (The current kind that ignores all forms of saves.) So there he goes, more badassery for his imagination army. 

But in seriousness, _as I literally made that up completely and has absolutely no basis on any rumors there are whatsoever,_ Its impossible to make an army based off rumors of any type playable. Like my 'rumor' above, you cant believe everything. And even on the credible sources, (I am currently saving money so I can buy a ring and properly propose to Katie Drake for those pictures she provided. [Joking again] ) you cant know the full details of something untill its on official paper. Especially when playing a game like Warhammer, where even years after a rulebook is printed, circulated, and digested by the masses we STILL dont quite know what all the rules mean in the damn books.


And remember. Even if an army that is 20 models for 2000 points (Just giving random points) is able to go up against 3 to 1 odds and have a good chance at winning, they stil lare just 20 models. You need only 20 good rolls while he needs alot more to win. And when you factor in how Warhammer is largely point capture based these days, those 20 models will have a hard time holding multiple spots effectively.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Well, I did win the game, but only by 1-0 obj for C and C, but he still raped half my force. and good guess, it was 20 models


----------



## KingDeath

Are there any infos about the performance of Landraiders and other more "normal" support choices? I mainly ask because i am not a big fan of either the Stormraven ( which looks really ugly ) or the Dreadknight and i do not plan to use them but i would still like to create a somewhat competitive list.


----------



## Winterous

KingDeath said:


> Are there any infos about the performance of Landraiders and other more "normal" support choices? I mainly ask because i am not a big fan of either the Stormraven ( which looks really ugly ) or the Dreadknight and i do not plan to use them but i would still like to create a somewhat competitive list.


Well I imagine they're exactly the same, except for having that Psychic power (discarding Stunned and Shaken), and probably being a bit more expensive.
Seriously, what did you expect would be different?

It's possible they have Psycannon and Incinerators instead of comparable weapons, but that's the only unmentioned difference I can think of.


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## Irbian

I have the tongue on cheek (it is the correct expresion?) with one issue now. What is a psilencer?


----------



## GrizBe

I'm still wondering that myself since it seems to be an option for several units... I'm guessing, with the 'silence' part... perhaps its some sort of anti-psyker weapon that stops them from using powers?


----------



## Imperators Warden

There is only one thing that has me watching these rumours; the Jokaero Weaponsmith. I really like the concept for that race for some reason. Hopefully they will have some cool sculpts.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Imperators Warden said:


> There is only one thing that has me watching these rumours; the Jokaero Weaponsmith. I really like the concept for that race for some reason. Hopefully they will have some cool sculpts.


Yes, artificer orang-utans are an amazing concept. They need their own Codex.

So basically what I'm getting from the new and expanded rumour mill is that Grey Knights still come with Storm Bolters and NFWs as standard, but they're being squeezed out of the spotlight by Terminators? As in, your Terminator units will be the ones doing the actual winning of games whilst the PAGKs do... what, exactly? Purgation Squads?


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## Azezel

While your PAGK hold objectives, which is fairly fluffy. If you have TDA soldiers and PA soldiers it only makes sense to put the TDA at the pointy end and leave the PA to secure the wreckage.


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## MadCowCrazy

Imperators Warden said:


> There is only one thing that has me watching these rumours; the Jokaero Weaponsmith. I really like the concept for that race for some reason. Hopefully they will have some cool sculpts.


Well, here is the official model for the Jokaero Weaponsmith.








Nah, I'm bullshitting ya :crazy:


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## Frank Fugger

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, here is the official model for the Jokaero Weaponsmith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I'm bullshitting ya :crazy:


Gimme!!!



Azezel said:


> While your PAGK hold objectives, which is fairly fluffy. If you have TDA soldiers and PA soldiers it only makes sense to put the TDA at the pointy end and leave the PA to secure the wreckage.


Fluff is too mutable to care about at this stage. Especially since it's Mat Ward.

My current Grey Knights comprise 21 models in power armour with 4 Incinerators, and 8 Terminators including a Psycannon, an Incinerator, and Stern. What I'm trying to figure out is how many of these models, if any, I'd be able to field if I decide to try and make a functional GK army from the new book.

If it's "all of them", that's great.

If it's "some, but you will need to buy more Terminators", I can live with that.

If it's "very few of them because they've had a Carnifex/ Death Company-style screwjob" I'll sell the lot and start building my Voidravens.


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## Azezel

Instinct says 'all of them, but you'll want another box of Termies AND PAGKs', not to mention a rhino, a Redeemer, a Dreadknight and a metal Lord Draigo...

Be fair, it's GWs job to sell toy soldiers and the only way to do that is to make sure you need to buy more. GW is a business, not Father Christmas.


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## OpTi

you'll probably find you'll field all of them, except now you'll have the extra points to spend on transports so that you can go flamey flamey death someone faster than you could before.

Also your standard termies now score too!


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## Frank Fugger

Of course they want to sell models, but selling models by designing the army well is one thing (Valks, Space Wolves resculpts), whereas selling models by screwing around with pre-existing units that everyone owns because they're so vital to the army and making it so they are no longer a viable choice and must be replaced (Carnifexes, Death Company) is cynical in the extreme.

Having to buy more PAGKs sounds promising though, might finally mean that whole "15 models at 1500 points" crap is dead and gone. Do they come with Nemesis Force Weapons as standard in addition to the Storm Bolters?

EDIT:


OpTi said:


> Also your standard termies now score too!


This, admittedly, sounds awesome. It's got to have a check to balance it, I suppose, but GK Terminators rawk and being able to have more of them can only be a good thing.


----------



## OpTi

it looks like they are marines with storm bolters and power weapons with the unit able to cast 1 power per turn so either making the unit +1S or a single force weapon attack.

ATM we don't know if stormbolters count as a pistol yet so if they have 1 or 2 attacks is up in the air. Personaly i would say no i think what they have at 20pts each is good enough making them a good fire support unit with some decent versitility. At a guess a 10man unit with incinerator and psycannon and a thunderhammer force weapon + rhino, combat squadded giving you an objective holder/firesupport unit and CC + nasty template unit.

OFC we don't know if any of that is really in the codex but it doesn't sound unreasonable to me.


----------



## Vhalyar

OpTi said:


> ATM we don't know if stormbolters count as a pistol yet


Actually, the latest round of rumors from B&C seem to point to that being a yes.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Sorry I got the impression that the NFW on power armoured troops would have the ability to ID a model they wound with a psychic test, But would NOT count as power weapons....


Marines with SB and powerweapons seem a bit OP for 20 points.........


Old GK vs. Marine
Ws5 @ 2 Atks = 4/3 Hits @Str.6 = 10/9 Wounds on a 3+ Save = 0.7 kills

"Rumoured GKs" Vs. Marine
WS4 & 2Atks =1Hit @Str.4=0.5 kills

So addmittedly they are less powered than the Old GKs but they will do comparably bettter againtst TEQs. 

However if the halberds give them the rumoured +1I as well as being able to cast hammerhand they will munch most units in CC.


----------



## GrizBe

There really wasn't any doubt that stormbolters would be more then a single shot weapon. Theres no point arming GK's with them if they were only like a normal bolter.


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## OrdoMalleus

GrizBe said:


> There really wasn't any doubt that stormbolters would be more then a single shot weapon. Theres no point arming GK's with them if they were only like a normal bolter.


I think people were actully refferring to "Will they count as a pistol in CC" as they currently do to give GK the +1 Atk for 2 weapons


----------



## GrizBe

Ahh.. well yeah, probably. They should if wrist mounted weapons, like the ones on units like the Sanguinary Guard do. Afterall, Gk's are meant to be more elite then even them.


----------



## Frank Fugger

OrdoMalleus said:


> I think people were actully refferring to "Will they count as a pistol in CC" as they currently do to give GK the +1 Atk for 2 weapons


That's True Grit; not quite the same thing as having a Pistol because your GK lose their +1 attack on the charge but gain it at all other times.

PAGK currently only have a single Attack on their profile so them having 1 in the new book isn't a reduction.

EDIT: Also Storm Bolters are a pretty standard IoM-army weapon that is Assault 2 in all cases. Given they're trying to standardise the game as much as possible it wouldn't make sense for them to change the weapon's profile just for the sake of changing it.

Personally I think they should just leave the GK's base armaments alone. They're fine as they are.


----------



## Imperators Warden

*Just awesome!*



MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, here is the official model for the Jokaero Weaponsmith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I'm bullshitting ya :crazy:


He needs more bling! Digi weapon ring on ever foot hand finger!


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, here is the official model for the Jokaero Weaponsmith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, I'm bullshitting ya :crazy:


That was... Kind of... Well, yeah... :crazy:


----------



## Irbian

actually I find that jokaero pretty plausible...

Edit: By the way, Ciaphas Cain again, a truly gentleman 


> I. Yes, the Weaponsmiths are the Jokaero. Keep in mind they're in the Inquisitor's Warband and nowhere in their entry does it mention that they work with the Grey Knights themselves. I think it's a nod at the Ordo Xenos inclusion. You should hear their rules though, hoo boy!
> 
> II. I've seen some none blurred pictures, yeah. Some of that new artwork is impressive! And the Dreadknight box art is sweeeeet. You guys will really like it, it's the most bad ass Exo-Suit this side of Terra.
> 
> III. I'll get back to you guys on the Wargear stuff the next time I take a look. Orbital Strike Relay calls down a single Orbital Bombardment, I believe.
> 
> IV. Sadly, yes, the GM, BC, and Libby come with a 5++ Invul as is Terminator Standard. They can take Warding Staves though. The GM and BC have Psychic Communion and Hammerhands, and no, they can't customize their powers.
> 
> V. They come with Nemesis Force Swords as standard. If you want the Halberd and so on, you's got to pay up!
> 
> VI. Also, the Brotherhood Champion is an HQ too that no one seems to care about. Poor guys. I still love you and Castellan Crowe too!
> 
> VII. The Turbo-Penetrator acts exactly how it sounds like with Sniper. Scary, innit?
> 
> VIII. Warding Staves are a generic 2++ as far as I know. And no, outside of the Crusader type Henchman, there be no Storm Shields. Guess they wanted to leave that to the regular SMs.
> 
> IX. I'm actually kind of confused what the purpose of a Brother Captain is to be honest. He's only 25 points cheaper than the Grand Master and he doesn't even have the awesomeness that's The Grand Strategy that the GMs have.
> 
> X. Purifier Squads, I know no one asked, but they're so boss. My standard troop type thanks to His Awesomeness Castellan Crowe.
> 
> XI. Costs: GM = 175. BC = 150. Libby = 150. Brotherhood Champ = 100 (For Arty Armour and weapons of awesome!)
> 
> XI. FLUFF QUESTIONS HOOOOO!
> -Paladin Terminators are basically super elite badasses. When a GK thinks he can be a bad ass, he embarks on an eight step quest to become a Paladin, involving spending a day and night in some super evil cavern in Mount Anarch, go test his will against some super evil book, kill a Herald of each of the four Chaos Gods, kick the ass of one of the 666 super daemons and more. Then he goes and joins the Paladins in the Hall of Champions and bodyguards the Grandmasters and Apothecaries.
> -GKs are organized into various Brotherhoods, each with a BC and his bodyguard called the Brotherhood Champion. I can't be sure until I get another look at it, but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.
> -It seems to be a mix of pick and called. The GKs can go drop the hammer wherever they think they need to, but if the Inquisition calls, they've gotta go be Bros and back em up.
> -Jokaeros and Daemonhosts work with INQUISITORS not necessarily the GKs. I guess if they have to work with them they view it as a necessary evil?
> 
> XII. And yes, the Cullexus lost the aura and the ability.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Also, as scary as Paladins are, they do cost an arm and a leg. And a kidney. Basically you become Iron-Hand Straken if you want an army of them.


----------



## Irbian

Aaaaaaaaand doblepost


> Castellan Garran Crowe
> -Head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order
> -Wielder of The Blade of Antwyr, a super daemon sword that not only attracts heretics and daemons like flies, but tries to corrupt and possess the wielder, thus it was entrusted to the Purifiers to keep safe. Crowe is the only one with the fortitude to keep it under control.
> -Stats: 8 4 4 4 2 6 * 10 2+
> -150 pts
> -The reason for the * on his A slot is because he has the same "The Perfect Warrior" ability that Brotherhood Champs have
> -Artificer Armour; Frak, Krak, and Psyk-Out Nades, Storm Bolter; Iron Halo
> -The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase
> -Master Swordsman: His CC attacks are Rending and Rend on a 4+
> -All the rules a regular Broterhood Champ has
> -Purifiers are TROOPS with Castellan Crowe
> 
> Purifiers are awesome because for +4 points over a PAGK they gain an extra attack and LD point. And access to The Cleansing Flame psychic power. Oh and Incinerators are free for them.
> 
> The Grand Strategy is the ability of the Grand Master to give one of four special rules to D3 units (Infantry, Jump Infantry, MCs, or Walkers, NOT Inquis. Warbands, ICs, or Modrak's Ghost Knights). The rules are:
> -Hammer of Righteousness: Nominated unit re-rolls to wound rolls of 1 for the duration of the game
> -Shield of Blades: Target unit gets Counter Attack
> -Spear of Light: Target unit gets Scouts
> -Unyielding Anvil: Target unit gains Scoring
> 
> Brother-Captain Stern
> -Stern is NOT a Mephiston like beast. The idea makes me chuckle. He is good though.
> -Standard Brother Captain Statline & Equipment
> -Strands of Fate: Stern can reroll one to hit, to wound, or saving throw die PER PHASE. However, for every one you chose to roll, your enemy can reroll one of his own later in the game.
> -Zone of Banishment: Psychic Power used in the assault phase in place of his CC attacks. ALL models within 6" (Friendly and enemy, and himself!) must take a Strength test. Those that fail are dragged into the Warp AKA removed from play. Daemons must reroll successful saves.
> 
> 
> 
> ALSO! I IS IDIOT. BROTHER CAPTAINS, GRAND MASTERS, AND BROTHERHOOD CHAMPIONS HAVE IRON HALOS. THAT IS ALL. 4++ INVUL.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Frank Fugger said:


> Especially since it's Mat Ward.


*shudders at Ward writing about grey knights forming an alliance with Tyranids and daemons to fight against Orks allied to eldar*


----------



## soulreaver296

interesting... castellan crowe looks to be an awesome choice... have termie spearheads, with purifier support, and some GKSS squads as fire bases... all troops and scoring


----------



## Brovius

I'll admit, after first batch of rumors, I was afraid that the GKs would be sodomised into normal Space Marines. It's good to see that they are retaining some individuality still


----------



## Irbian

I miss combat shields and jetbikes with lances.


----------



## Hurricane

I'm very curious to know how GW will be doing the Inquisitorial warbands. Will they be a plastic kit with one of each choice in it, or will we be getting separate metal blisters (better not! :ireful2? Anyone have any info on this?


----------



## Vhalyar

Sasha Nein said:


> I'm very curious to know how GW will be doing the Inquisitorial warbands. Will they be a plastic kit with one of each choice in it, or will we be getting separate metal blisters (better not! :ireful2? Anyone have any info on this?


Probably nothing. There's so many models and customization bits, I seriously doubt that GW would bother. if anything, this is an opportunity to kitbash things.


----------



## Mathai

Irbian said:


> I miss combat shields and jetbikes with lances.


 
ah yes, I was salivating over my mental image of thoe Imperial jet bikes out in full force


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sasha Nein said:


> I'm very curious to know how GW will be doing the Inquisitorial warbands. Will they be a plastic kit with one of each choice in it, or will we be getting separate metal blisters (better not! :ireful2? Anyone have any info on this?


I believe we will all be very disappointed, if you look at the DH and WH models removed from the GW webstore over the last year and a half you will notice most of them are indeed models that will be in the Inquisitorial Warband.

Basically I have come to the conclusion that they have removed the Arco flagellant boxes and so on just so they can repackage the models into new henchmen boxes, probably for a higher price than before as well.

Before you could only field like 9 Death Cult Assassins, if the rumours are true and you use Corteaz you can now field a max of 72 in troops. We might see boxed sets with 5 metal deathcult and arco flagellants in the same box, same old metal ones ofc.
Worst case scenario is that they take the models from the DH and WH Inquisitor henchmen boxes and combine that with the arco box and death cult box to give us a single box with 1 of each warband miniature.
THAT SOUNDS GREAT!! I hear you say, only problem is that it will probably cost 20£ for the box and you need to buy 12 boxes if you want to create an all Death Cult (or any other henchman) warband.


----------



## Frank Fugger

That sucks, I was hoping the Sisters would get Arco-Flagellants back them in their new book. My feeling is that the GK have been repackaged as the 'Inquisition' codex, so I reckon when the Sisters get re-released they'll end up as the 'Ecchlesiarchy' book, with Uriah Jacobus and Penitent Engines and Missionaries and Frateris Militia Warbands and Fanatics and stuff. Bringing sexy back from 2nd Edition would be awesome.

EDIT: As long as Mat fucking Ward doesn't get it.


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## Brovius

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=221828&st=200&#entry2657341

Ciaphas Cain has answered a few more questions on the new GKs, thought i'd alert you guys


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## GrizBe

I find it odd, given current suggestions, that you'd have to take a psycannon, and psybolts to get the ignore invulnerable. I mean, whats the point of a psycannon normally?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Sasha Nein said:


> I'm very curious to know how GW will be doing the Inquisitorial warbands. Will they be a plastic kit with one of each choice in it, or will we be getting separate metal blisters (better not! :ireful2? Anyone have any info on this?



There are a good few inquisition-based models in various stages of development, 
however they are unlikely to see a release until next year


----------



## Irbian

Are you refering to inquisitor models or henchemen models?

Edit: Compiling the new info



> I. True Grit is NOT a rule. HOWEVER, if I remember, the armoury entry for GK armour and Stormbolters said that Stormbolters work as pistols for the purpose of calculating an extra CC attack. I'll check when I get a look at the wargear section again.
> 
> II. Daemonhosts:
> -Stats: 3 3 4 4 1 3 1 8 -
> -Fearsome Claws and Runic Chains (CC weapons)
> -Warp Shield : 5+ Invul Save
> -Daemonic Power: Roll a d6 on the start of each of YOUR turns, all Daemonhosts in your unit gain one of the following until your next turn unless otherwise stated:
> -1: Re-Knit Host Form - Feel No Pain
> -2 Warp Grasp: No Armour saves against Daemonhost's CC attacks
> -3 Daemonic Speed: Fleet & I10
> -4 Warp Strength: Strength 6
> -5 Energy Torrent: Shooting attack: 24" S4 AP3 Assault 1, Blast
> -6 Unholy Gaze: Shooting Attack: 24" S8 AP- Assault 1
> 
> III. Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo (You will address him as such or no questions answered for you! tongue.gif)
> -He's your GK Mephiston
> -He has a Storm Shield and Storm Bolter, yes. And lots of other things.





> I. Grand Master Mordrak
> -6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
> -He has the usual GM equipment plus a MC Daemonhammer (The bigger, nastier version)
> -Usual GM rules
> -First to the Fray: If he deploys via Deepstrike, he and his unit arrive first turn and does not scatter
> -Ghostly Bodyguard: These be Ghost Knights. They count as Terminators (Regular, not Paladin) but have Stealth, one unit only. Mordrak acts as an upgrade character for them until such point as they are all dead. If Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, at the end of the phase roll a d3. If the result is equal to or greater than his remaining wounds a Ghost Knight appears. You place it in coherent with him and it counts as part of his unit. Default wargear, no upgrades. Placed in B2B contact with the enemy unit Modrak is fighting or within 1" of him otherwise. If you don't have a GK on hand, or there's no room, they don't materialize. It's possible to materialize mid assault apparently, and if the GK does, he can make an attack if the wound was caused by an attack of I5 or higher. If not, he just appears. If Mordrak dies, the Ghost Knights go bye bye.
> 
> ^ Long rule isn't it? And I left out all the fluff.
> 
> -Ghost Knights ARE 32 points per. And they can be upgraded.
> 
> -Did you mean Purgation or Purifier Squads Hero? Purgation = Artillery GKs, Purifiers = Vet GKs
> 
> -GKSS costs 100 points base, 20 points per GK, and comes with a Justicar.
> 
> 
> NEXT!
> 
> Edit: Warp Stabilization Field negates Perils on Vehicles I believe. Like I said, when I get a look on the Wargear section i'll let you all know. Have Faith in your Commissar eh?





> I. As far as I know, Nemesis Weapons ARE power weapons. Make of that what you will.
> II. Psycannons are what you said, I believe, but I think its H3, not H4.
> III. Marmande.. Lots of Questions.
> -Thawn has a Halberd
> -Purifiers are WS 4. The only difference between them and GKSS is that they have The Cleansing Flame, +1A, +1Ld and can take free Incinerators and Psilencers (Though GKSS can take Psilencers for free too) Oh and they get Halberds at +2 points instead of +5
> -Purgation Squads are BS 4.
> -Deathcult Assassins are WS5 I6 and are 15 points.
> -Covered the Libby's stats already
> -Inquisitors have LOTS of varied options, too many to list but i'll list some notables (THIS IS NOT ALL OF THEM, so don't get all worried if I don't mention a Nemesis weapon or such)
> I. Malleus: Combi-Weapons, Hellrifles, Daemonblade, Artificer Armour, Termi Armour, Psyker upgrade
> II. Hereticus: Combi-Weapons, Inferno Pistol, Condemner Bolt Gun, Null Rod, Arty Armour, Psyocculum, Psyker upgrade
> III. Xenos: Combi-Weapons, Needle Pistol, Scythian Venom Talon, Ulumeathl Plasma Syphon, Rad & Psychostroke Nades, Psyker Upgrade, Arty Armour
> 
> -Coteaz is S4. Master Crafted Daemonhammer, and various special rules
> -Crusaders do not have Power Armour. WS4 I3
> -Eversor does not blow up anymore.
> -Brotherhood Banner - Not sure as of now, i'll check


One other user asked:


> Yes, Purifiers.
> 
> Here's a rundown of points I have collected so far (all from Rumors of course).
> Confirmation on these will be awesome:
> 
> - 175 for GM, 150 for BC, 150 for Librarian Lv.2/200 for Lv.3, 100 for Champion
> - 100 for 5x GKSS w/ Justicar, 20ppm for each one additional, 20pts for Psycannon and 10 for each Incinerator for every 5 guys in the squad.
> - 100 for 5x Purgation Squad w/ Justicar that comes with Incinerators
> - 275 for Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo, 200 for Mardock, Stern's cost??, 200 for Castallen.
> - Paladins are 55pts starting base, Terminators are 40pts base.


Where Ciaphar answered:


> IV. Your points on the HQs are correct, Hero
> -Swap the Psycannon and Incinerator costs on the GKSS though your right on that otherwise
> -Purgation Squads: Yessir. Though technically they come armed as GKSS squads, but can take Incinerators for free.
> -275 for the Supreme Grand Master, 200, for Mordrak, 200 for Stern, & 150 for Castellan Crowe
> -Yes for Paladins. Also, the Apothecary is a 75 point UPGRADE, meaning you have to buy the Paladin THEN upgrade him
> -Purifiers are 120 points base, 24 per new model.





> -Yes, Terminators get access to all of that (incinerators and psycannons)
> -Yes, Dreadknights are the only ones with teleporters outside of GKSS
> -Techmarines, no other powers, but he does get some other fancy stuff: Conversion Beamer, Servo Skulls, Nemesis Weapons, Orbital Strike Relay, Psybolt ammo, fancy nades and more
> -Brotherhood of Psykers: A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. They count as a single psyker and follow all the normal rules as such with the following clarifications:
> I. GK unit uses the leadership of the Justicar or Knight of Flame if he is alive, otherwise, uses the unit's LD. They may never use the LD of an Independent character for Psychic Tests
> II. If the GK suffers a Perils of the Warp or any other attack that specifically targets psykers, it's resolved against the Justicar or Knight of Flame. If he's not alive, a random non-character model in the unit.
> -That's all Mystics do i'm afraid. Though you don't scatter when you go within 6" of them





> -Grand Master Mordrak's Fluff:
> I. Only survivor of the Fortress world of Mortain after a Red Corsairs attack
> II. Was traumatized and saw "visions" of his dead brothers
> III. Under attack at Ralindri, he was left crippled and alone after a teleporter malfunction. Daemons attack "Chilling wall of Silvered Steel" appears around him and proceeds to beat Daemon face. He survives
> IV. On the Bloodplains of Bellos III he saw the apparitions and discovered them to be his dead brothers from Mortain. They urge him to hunt down various Daemonic incursions
> V. He feels the only way to free them is to kill Huron Blackheart who's apparently got a fleet and force to rival the Traitor Legions
> VI. Mordrak's new mission is to shove his foot up Huron's arse.


Someone asked


> Wait, so Psyannons are only 10 pts on GKSS and Incinerators are 20? Did I misread that? If that's the case then the free Incinerators on the Purgation squads would result in free Psycannons.
> Great info on everything else.
> 
> Questions:
> I would assume all Terminators/Paladins/GKSS and Purifier squads follow the same weapon layout. This meaning: For every 5 models, take a special weapon such as Incinerator and Psycannon.
> This would also mean that Paladins have access to 2 Warding Staves if you take a full unit of 10.
> 
> As for unit limits, I'm assuming 5-10 for GKSS and Purifier squads, 5-10 for Purgation squads, 1-10 for Paladins, 5-10 for Terminators. Confirm?





> Take it with a grain of salt man, you don't have to believe me. Hell, I don't expect you too. I'm just trying to be as helpful as I can. I take everything with a grain of salt and i've seen the thing. No harm in doing that, I recommend it for any rumors you encounter, be they mine or someone else's.
> 
> -Yes Hero, Psycannons are 10 and Incinerators are 20. You still have to pay for the Psycannons on Purgation Squads though.
> -Same Weapon layout yes. But Nemesis Weapons work different. They're not every 5 models, for them it's ANY model.
> -Yes you are correct for the unit limits.





> The Knight of Flame is the Purifier Justicar, yes. Purgation Squads don't get a cool leader name, i'm afraid.
> 
> -Angelust - I covered all of that already, i'm not sure if there's a round up for what i've said so far somewhere or anything. No harm in asking though, so don't let anyone brow beat ya.
> 
> -GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh.
> -They seem to be the Guardians of a boatload of hidden Chaos stuff within Segmentum Solar and the Sol System. It almost seems like the Emperor is one of those guys you see on American Pickers but for Chaos junk, and he keeps it all on his front lawn. Poor Grey Knights have to keep it all locked up.
> 
> EDIT: Purgation Squads are +10 for Psilencers, +20 for Psycannons
> -Paladins and Terminators are every 5 for the Incinerator, Psycannon, and Psilencer
> -Warding Staves count as NEMESIS weapons and thus follow the "ANY model" heading.
> -Daemonbane is some sorta super anti-Chaos upgrade. I want to say it lets you re-roll to hit and wound against daemons but let me check before you all run off screaming into the night.





> Malleus inquisitors can take psycannons





> -Mordrak and Draigo do have The Grand Strategy
> -Psycannons and Incinerators do not ignore Invuls as far as I know. Psybolt ammo seems to, though.
> -No vehicles/walkers have access to Psycannons, Incinerators, and their ilk, outside of the Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature anyways.
> -Dreadknight Options: (135 pt Base)
> -Heavy Psycannon - 40
> -Gatling Psilencer - 35
> -Heavy Incinerator - 30
> -Nemesis Daemonhammer - 10
> -Nemesis Greatsword - 25
> -Personal Teleporter - 75
> -Also, Dreadknight Armour: 2+/4++
> -Dreads(115 pts)/Ven Dreads (175 pts): Weapons are the same as they've ever been for a Space Marine Dreadnought. Fancy GK vehicle upgrades including Psybolt and Psyflame ammo.
> 
> Now even a Commissar must slumber. Think upon what I have told you, my brothers, and come with new questions. Oh and by the way Lord Karamazov I Got A Fancy High Chair is in, in case you were wondering.


Could be I forgot something in the way. if you want to check yourself, you know where is the source


----------



## Lucian Kain

Was just wondering what the Pscilencer dose?
Is it a sniper weapon with multiple shots?...its bugging me.

Are we assumeing the DreadKnights are StormRaven portable or do we know?


----------



## OpTi

highly doubt DK's can make use of transports, the BA SR can transport up to 10 models and a dread whereas the DK is a MC


----------



## Winterous

OpTi said:


> highly doubt DK's can make use of transports, the BA SR can transport up to 10 models and a dread whereas the DK is a MC


Not to mention that it can TELEPORT!


----------



## Irbian

Winterous said:


> Not to mention that it can TELEPORT!


They come... from the warp!


----------



## Bindi Baji

Irbian said:


> Are you refering to inquisitor models or henchemen models?


yes and yes


----------



## Hurricane

That's really unfortunate if that's true. I was really looking forward to plastic crusaders and the like. I suppose that just means I'm going to have to kitbash a bunch of plastic models together.


----------



## Azezel

Lucian Kain said:


> Was just wondering what the Pscilencer dose?
> Is it a sniper weapon with multiple shots?...its bugging me.
> 
> Are we assumeing the DreadKnights are StormRaven portable or do we know?


Pscilencer: I don't know what it does, but I'm willing to have a guess. It removes or negates psychic powers. A model hit by it doesn't lose a wound, but a power instead, a bit like Psyk-Out warheads.

Again, that's just what I imagine when I imagine a weapon called the 'pscilencer'.


And several sources have said the Dreadknight CANNOT be carried by the Stormugly.


----------



## Doelago

So now we have a crazy Grey Knight wanting to show his foot up into Hurons ass? Sweet... So looking forward to this.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

II. Daemonhosts:
-Stats: 3 3 4 4 1 3 1 8 -
-Fearsome Claws and Runic Chains (CC weapons)
-Warp Shield : 5+ Invul Save
-Daemonic Power: Roll a d6 on the start of each of YOUR turns, all Daemonhosts in your unit gain one of the following until your next turn unless otherwise stated:
-1: Re-Knit Host Form - Feel No Pain
-2 Warp Grasp: No Armour saves against Daemonhost's CC attacks
-3 Daemonic Speed: Fleet & I10
-4 Warp Strength: Strength 6
-5 Energy Torrent: Shooting attack: 24" S4 AP3 Assault 1, Blast
-6 Unholy Gaze: Shooting Attack: 24" S8 AP- Assault 1

So the Daemon host has 1 attack? Wow, really scary.... unless Runic Chains gives more attacks or something I dont see anyone using Daemonhosts, AT ALL.
Why not the D6 they used to have? Something must be wrong about that statline because this just seems stupid.


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> Something must be wrong about that statline because this just seems stupid.


No shit, or then they have decided to fuck stuff up for Radical (not me) players...


----------



## GrizBe

They are henchmen now though rather then there own unit... that could explain it?


----------



## Vhalyar

Azezel said:


> Pscilencer: I don't know what it does, but I'm willing to have a guess. It removes or negates psychic powers. A model hit by it doesn't lose a wound, but a power instead, a bit like Psyk-Out warheads.
> 
> Again, that's just what I imagine when I imagine a weapon called the 'pscilencer'.


Seems like it's just a regular gun.


H.B.M.C. said:


> Psilencer is just a type of gun that uses 'psychic ammunition' ie. it focuses the psychic ability of the user rather than using real magazines of bullets or shells. From what I've read they just have a good rate of fire with decent punch, but nothing like a Psycannon.


----------



## oiad

Hmm, the move to retinue choice is probably at fault. Still it is strange that in an era of profile-creep that this codex is being hit quite hard with the nerfbat in certain areas....

...obviously those GK HQ/SC choices haven't been. And a point cost decrease helps too.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GrizBe said:


> They are henchmen now though rather then there own unit... that could explain it?


True but from what I've read they cost 10 points, an Arco Flagellant or Death cult costs 15, a crusader with pw weapon and storm shield costs 15 points. Why the hell would I take a Daemonhost with 1 attack over an Arco that has 2 better WS, 1 more S, 3 more attacks and come with FNP?
The only thing that's better about a daemonhost is it's T4 vs Arco T3.

Those special rules doesn't make up for it. If I want additive wound I'd take warrior acolytes for 4pt each.


----------



## Irbian

maybe they are 3 points


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> True but from what I've read they cost 10 points, an Arco Flagellant or Death cult costs 15, a crusader with pw weapon and storm shield costs 15 points. Why the hell would I take a Daemonhost with 1 attack over an Arco that has 2 better WS, 1 more S, 3 more attacks and come with FNP?
> The only thing that's better about a daemonhost is it's T4 vs Arco T3.
> 
> Those special rules doesn't make up for it. If I want additive wound I'd take warrior acolytes for 4pt each.


It's because models with such a random nature are extremely difficult to price appropriately. It's kind of silly to expect GW to write a Codex with no crappy choices at all, so I'd just focus on the good points of the Codex (of which there are many).


----------



## LKHERO

Excellent round-up.
Thanks!


----------



## Mathai

Well its not like we all have alot of Daemonhosts sitting around waiting to be used right? xp As soon as I read that they restricted Grey Knights from the current codex, I know I scratched them from my 'to get' list long ago. x.x


----------



## Tuatara

I used daemonhosts for the first time ever in a battle yesterday. Went for them for a fun army list. I also took a accidus assassin and the orbital bombardment. I know they aren't worth their points, but I'd never used them so I thought I'd give it a go. It was more fun than I've had in a while. Lost by 1 kill point, but had a laugh.


Everyone was right about the points not being worth it on the assassin and the orbital bombardment, but it was cool to try something different. At least I now have that out of my system as there appears to be plenty of new things to try in the upcoming codex.


----------



## Lucian Kain

*Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo.....*AKA The best Fighter the Imperium has to offer?He better be,if he cant shit on Calgar I'll be so pissed


----------



## coke123

:shok: I had to pick this week to go away...


----------



## Frank Fugger

Lucian Kain said:


> *Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo*


No man can defeat him.


Daemonhosts have never been anything other than a Benny Hill unit. I had a Radical DH list many moons ago; having them appear from nowhere and then become a Jetbike or an S9 monstrosity was hilarious fun, but was never likely to threaten any serious player that could hit them with a S8 shot and keep on truckin'.

Still sad to see them nerfed into Henchman oblivion though.


----------



## Winterous

Frank Fugger said:


> having them appear from nowhere and then become a Jetbike


----------



## Frank Fugger

It was more like:


----------



## oiad

Lucian Kain said:


> *Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo.....*AKA The best Fighter the Imperium has to offer?He better be,if he cant shit on Calgar I'll be so pissed


Lol, at 275 points you'd think so. I've already seen people say that at WS7,S/T/T/A5 and EW with a Paladin army that he'll do as a Constantin Valdor... IMO, a sword that inflicts S10 against only daemons and psykers sounds uneven. But otherwise he's the kinda iconic special character a GK player would want to hold the fort. And [possibly] to everyone else a point-sink monstrosity.

I'm more interested in Crowe. For 150 points he sounds like a near-bargain. I would have been willing to pay more for an extra wound and a set of base attacks but otherwise it's surprising to see such a cheap option, especially for a 'sword master'. Both he and Mordrack sound intriguing, even if they hack up current fluff by carrying daemon swords or by hanging around with warp anomalies/ghosts.


----------



## Winterous

oiad said:


> Lol, at 275 points you'd think so. I've already seen people say that at WS7,S/T/T/A5 and EW with a Paladin army that he'll do as a Constantin Valdor... IMO, a sword that inflicts S10 against only daemons and psykers sounds uneven. But otherwise he's the kinda iconic special character a GK player would want to hold the fort. And [possibly] to everyone else a point-sink monstrosity.
> 
> I'm more interested in Crowe. For 150 points he sounds like a near-bargain. I would have been willing to pay more for an extra wound and a set of base attacks but otherwise it's surprising to see such a cheap option, especially for a 'sword master'. Both he and Mordrack sound intriguing, even if they hack up current fluff by carrying daemon swords or by hanging around with warp anomalies/ghosts.


Kaldor Draigo can only be so good.
I think he'll be comparable in power to the similarly costed Logan Grimnar, except also a Psyker.
Physically that's about as good as a Space Marine can get, raw power, obscene toughness, and incredible skill.
But there are things beyond the physical, he is a powerful Psyker, if not the greatest that humanity has to offer.
Similarly, Ezekyle Abaddon dates back to the Horus Heresy, he's an ancient and extremely skilled warrior, and is physically very powerful, his abilities have been further augmented with gifts from the Chaos gods.

He can't be super ridiculous in stats alone, because he is only a Space Marine; his power is capped in that way, but he has more power lying in other places.


----------



## TheSpore

I hope this DH bug doesn't bite my ass cause my wife is gonna kill me if i build another army


----------



## GrizBe

*Cancels the Inquisitorial Compliance Chip order to Spores house.*


----------



## Irbian

Frank Fugger said:


> It was more like:


source!!!


----------



## Frank Fugger

oiad said:


> But otherwise he's the kinda iconic special character a GK player would want to hold the fort.


I'd prefer an all-GK army that actually works, to be honest.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Now this is more of a Dynamic Entry than anything :crazy:


----------



## oiad

Frank Fugger said:


> I'd prefer an all-GK army that actually works, to be honest.


Frank, Frank, Frank. Take part of the quote and ignore the rest. As (primarily?) a Space Wolves player I would have thought you would have found the following sentence more appropriate to your tastes. Ya know:


oiad said:


> ...And [possibly] to everyone else a point-sink monstrosity...


 

Even as a GK player, I would only ever take him for a pure laugh. But as a character he's everything we've been missing in an iconic leader. Every army deserves one.



Winterous said:


> Kaldor Draigo can only be so good.
> I think he'll be comparable in power to the similarly costed Logan Grimnar, except also a Psyker.
> Physically that's about as good as a Space Marine can get, raw power, obscene toughness, and incredible skill.
> But there are things beyond the physical, he is a powerful Psyker, if not the greatest that humanity has to offer.
> Similarly, Ezekyle Abaddon dates back to the Horus Heresy, he's an ancient and extremely skilled warrior, and is physically very powerful, his abilities have been further augmented with gifts from the Chaos gods.
> 
> He can't be super ridiculous in stats alone, because he is only a Space Marine; his power is capped in that way, but he has more power lying in other places.


Bingo! Draigo does seem like a cross between both Abaddon, Logan with epistolary-level powers. Though saying he can't be 275pts of good stats alone does remind me of Abaddon - such a selfish, non-deathstar ruleset for that cost.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Yay for Tomb Kings newsletter, this means the next one will be filled with Grey Knight stuff 
Unless it's for the rumoured Dark Eldar 1.5 release that is said to be late March...


----------



## Irbian

Bestial Fury said:


> 45 for a rhino naked? or a razorback at base? 45 for the Razor seems too cheap, even for my forgiving sensibilities.
> 45=Razorback (razorback Fast but no psychic driver)
> 40=Rhino (NOT fast, but with psychic Driver)
> 
> I agree, seems like Razorback should be 50pts. Going to really hurt with Coteaz, Henchman spam, in Razors with upgraded heavies.


Wow! I didnt expect that!

Edit: Actually, it seems that rhino is fast too.

By the way, dragmire and katie drake have been a little silenced. Maybe there is something new to share? 

Edit 2: Actually, rhino is not fast. Thanks Vhalyar


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> Edit: Actually, it seems that rhino is fast too.


He went back and edited his first message; Rhino is not fast but gets Fortitude, Razorback is fast but doesn't get a power.


----------



## Doelago

Frank Fugger said:


> I'd prefer an all-GK army that actually works, to be honest.


And the current one does not? My W/L ratio is still pretty much flawless.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Doelago said:


> And the current one does not? My W/L ratio is still pretty much flawless.


As in you haven't won a game yet?


----------



## Doelago

Baron Spikey said:


> As in you haven't won a game yet?


W/5 

D/1 

L/0


----------



## Stella Cadente

Doelago said:


> W/5
> 
> D/1
> 
> L/0


enemies must not of included a single tank in that case...or was not daemons, which GK's are useless against.


----------



## Doelago

Stella Cadente said:


> enemies must not of included a single tank in that case...or was not daemons, which GK's are useless against.


Tank gets ripped open by Hammerheading Captains/Grandmasters or Meltabombs, and Daemons are boring, thus I fight CSM, Orks, Tyranids and the Imperial Guard.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Doelago said:


> Tank gets ripped open by Hammerheading Captains/Grandmasters or Meltabombs, and Daemons are boring, thus I fight CSM, Orks, Tyranids and the Imperial Guard.


they let "can't decide if we are black or white" knights get that close?...wow...fail


----------



## Doelago

Stella Cadente said:


> they let "can't decide if we are black or white" knights get that close?...wow...fail


The tanks? Ouh, they dont get to far when stuff deepstrikes or uses Land Raiders. 

Also, I believe that it is pretty off-topic to turn this thread into a thread about my skills as a general. But if you want to start a thread, then go for it, but I would prefer not to do it in this thread.


----------



## Irbian

Vhalyar said:


> He went back and edited his first message; Rhino is not fast but gets Fortitude, Razorback is fast but doesn't get a power.


You are right sir, fixed


----------



## boreas

What weapons can a razorback get in the GK codex? Moving 12" and shooting a TL-psycannon (like the FW model) could help a lot with AT...

Phil


----------



## Azezel

Looks like Karamazov isn't the only thing the GK got from Codex: Witch Hunters - they got Immolators too.

I'm not bitter.

Actually, I'm not bitter, though I do wonder what he fluff justification for fast Razorbacks will be, and why they're the only GK vehicles not driven by Psykers.


EDIT: I finaly realised what it was that was bugging me about Inquisitor Valeria. Valeria was the name of the vampy woman in _Carry on Screaming_. One wonders what the mini will look like.


----------



## Katie Drake

I'm really starting to wonder if the Fast rule on the Razorback isn't a mistake. It just seems weird and not terribly intuitive.

EDIT: Yup, upon review, there's no Fast rule in the Rhino and Razorback entry in the _Grey Knights_ section, whereas a vehicle that's actually meant to be Fast like the Stormraven does indeed have the rule listed in that section.

It looks to me like the Codex writers copy-pasted the Razorback from the Blood Angels Codex, fiddled with the points cost a little and then forgot to update the rest (except for the cost of the twin Heavy Flamer). I wouldn't expect the Razorback to be Fast upon proper Codex release.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> I'm really starting to wonder if the Fast rule on the Razorback isn't a mistake. It just seems weird and not terribly intuitive.
> 
> EDIT: Yup, upon review, there's no Fast rule in the Rhino and Razorback entry in the _Grey Knights_ section, whereas a vehicle that's actually meant to be Fast like the Stormraven does indeed have the rule listed in that section.
> 
> It looks to me like the Codex writers copy-pasted the Razorback from the Blood Angels Codex, fiddled with the points cost a little and then forgot to update the rest (except for the cost of the twin Heavy Flamer). I wouldn't expect the Razorback to be Fast upon proper Codex release.


Woo, Katie continues to win at forum!


----------



## sybarite

Winterous said:


> Woo, Katie continues to win at forum!


It's a game? :shok:

on a real note good pickup Katie.


----------



## rasolyo

Azezel said:


> they got Immolators too.





Katie Drake said:


> upon review, there's no Fast rule in the Rhino and Razorback entry in the Grey Knights section


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> It looks to me like the Codex writers copy-pasted the Razorback from the Blood Angels Codex, fiddled with the points cost a little and then forgot to update the rest (except for the cost of the twin Heavy Flamer). I wouldn't expect the Razorback to be Fast upon proper Codex release.


Matt Ward's amazing copy/pasting skills in action, once again.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

Can we hope that, with such similarities, the forthcoming Battle Sisters codex will bring something completely new to the gaming table? I'm growing to like the idea of the Grey Knights being the poster boys of the Inquisition, while the Sisters become more of their own entity. Even if they fade into obscurity I will keep my models and continue to field them.

On a side note... more images from the new codex, please. Those made me randy.


----------



## coke123

Quick thought, since GK are being made a general inquisitorial force, and Ordo Xenos inquisitors are said to be in this book, does this mean deathwatch are effectively being retconned out of being the chamber militant of the ordo xenos? Seems a bit odd... It's been asked before, but is there any possibility of deathwatch being in this codex, even as henchmen?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Quick thought, since GK are being made a general inquisitorial force, and Ordo Xenos inquisitors are said to be in this book, does this mean deathwatch are effectively being retconned out of being the chamber militant of the ordo xenos? Seems a bit odd... It's been asked before, but is there any possibility of deathwatch being in this codex, even as henchmen?


There are no Deathwatch.

I think the Deathwatch is still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos, but I feel like GW doesn't feel that the Deathwatch/Ordo Xenos could be adequately represented as a force of their own, so they instead focus on the other two Ordos and put the Deathwatch into FFG's role playing game.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Katie, please give us some new pictures! I will buy you chocolate, roses, a house, a yacht, a dog and bake a cake! So please:wink:


----------



## Katie Drake

Akhara'Keth said:


> Katie, please give us some new pictures! I will buy you chocolate, roses, a house, a yacht, a dog and bake a cake! So please:wink:


Don't eat chocolate anymore.

Don't like flowers.

Bullshit, you're not buying me a house.

Don't want a yacht.

Already have a dog.

Don't eat cake anymore.

So what else ya got?

But seriously, I might get around to it. Maybe.


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> There are no Deathwatch.
> 
> I think the Deathwatch is still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos, but I feel like GW doesn't feel that the Deathwatch/Ordo Xenos could be adequately represented as a force of their own, so they instead focus on the other two Ordos and put the Deathwatch into FFG's role playing game.


Lame. Oh well, thanks for the info either way. So we can expect a fluff retcon of some variety then?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Lame. Oh well, thanks for the info either way. So we can expect a fluff retcon of some variety then?


No, that's sorta what I'm getting at - they'll be exploring the Ordo Xenos in the Deathwatch RPG game and more or less leaving it alone for tabletop 40K since the Ordo Xenos isn't really suited to the kinds of conflicts that we see in the 40K tabletop game. The Deathwatch doesn't really group together with multiple Kill Teams in the same area very often - less often even than the Grey Knights.


----------



## Coyote77

Katie Drake said:


> Don't eat chocolate anymore.
> 
> Don't like flowers.
> 
> Bullshit, you're not buying me a house.
> 
> Don't want a yacht.
> 
> Already have a dog.
> 
> Don't eat cake anymore.
> 
> So what else ya got?
> 
> But seriously, I might get around to it. Maybe.


Flattery ? You are a very strong, independent and attractive woman... More pics please ?


----------



## Shmeguy

Coyote77 said:


> Flattery ? You are a very strong, independent and attractive woman... More pics please ?


Yeah, i have heard people saying they've seen unblurred pics??? links would be great if anyone knows


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> No, that's sorta what I'm getting at - they'll be exploring the Ordo Xenos in the Deathwatch RPG game and more or less leaving it alone for tabletop 40K since the Ordo Xenos isn't really suited to the kinds of conflicts that we see in the 40K tabletop game. The Deathwatch doesn't really group together with multiple Kill Teams in the same area very often - less often even than the Grey Knights.


Right, got it. Thanks again.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Shmeguy said:


> Yeah, i have heard people saying they've seen unblurred pics??? links would be great if anyone knows


Im sure if you google Katie Drake you will see a host of pictures, none of them related too our Katie, or, you could pull your foot of your mouth, and say something useful to the thread 

On topic:

I am a little bummed that Deathwatch won't be represented, but it makes complete sense. Though, if you want DW, ask your opponent if you can field your all Sternguard army! :grin::victory:


----------



## coke123

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I am a little bummed that Deathwatch won't be represented, but it makes complete sense. Though, if you want DW, ask your opponent if you can field your all Sternguard army! :grin::victory:


Yeah, I'm bummed too. It's a shame your all sternguard army can't have an inquisitor though (although I guess you could make him a pedra count-as). Otherwise it's really just another pedro sternguard marine army. Oh well, the codex is grey knights, and there are lots of awesome things included from what we can gather. It's just wierd that they'd include ordo xenos inquisitors, but not their chamber militant (unless I've missed something where deathwatch aren't the alienhunters chamber militant, I'm no fluffmaster).


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

coke123 said:


> Yeah, I'm bummed too. It's a shame your all sternguard army can't have an inquisitor though (although I guess you could make him a pedra count-as). Otherwise it's really just another pedro sternguard marine army. Oh well, the codex is grey knights, and there are lots of awesome things included from what we can gather. It's just wierd that they'd include ordo xenos inquisitors, but not their chamber militant (unless I've missed something where deathwatch aren't the alienhunters chamber militant, I'm no fluffmaster).


I don't understand, if they include a DW inq. How can they not have anything Deathwatch? I would have thought maybe a 0-1 Killteam for elites or something, if 1 is taken for HQ, but hey, Im no Mat Ward.


----------



## thehobbz

Well been following this topic for a while and been eagerly awaiting a new Codex for ages.

I would like to say that the 12th March is the date for the Black Box to arrive in UK stores. So I will be popping along to my local store for a look.


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Yeah, I'm bummed too. It's a shame your all sternguard army can't have an inquisitor though (although I guess you could make him a pedra count-as). Otherwise it's really just another pedro sternguard marine army. Oh well, the codex is grey knights, and there are lots of awesome things included from what we can gather. It's just wierd that they'd include ordo xenos inquisitors, but not their chamber militant (unless I've missed something where deathwatch aren't the alienhunters chamber militant, I'm no fluffmaster).


Actually, you can. All you need to do is take Codex: Space Marines as your parent list, run Pedro Kantor as your HQ and take Sternguard Squads with your Elites and Scouts or Tacticals as Troops. Then you ally in either an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor (HQ and Elites respectively) from Codex: Witch Hunters and arm him/her with Alien Hunter-esque gear. Ta-da. Works until the Battle Sisters get a new Codex, at least.



Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I don't understand, if they include a DW inq. How can they not have anything Deathwatch? I would have thought maybe a 0-1 Killteam for elites or something, if 1 is taken for HQ, but hey, Im no Mat Ward.


They include an Ordo Xenos HQ choice because they want people to be able to represent an Inquisition army with no other elements (basically, no Chamber Militant. It's perfectly possible to field an army with no Grey Knights, for instance. Effectiveness is another story entirely).

I actually think you could represent a Deathwatch Kill Team decently enough using the rules for either a Grey Knight Strike Squad (psycannon counts-as Heavy Bolter with Hellfire Rounds and Suspensor, Incinerator counts-as specially modified heavy flamer and so on).


----------



## Frank Fugger

oiad said:


> Even as a GK player, I would only ever take him for a pure laugh. But as a character he's everything we've been missing in an iconic leader. Every army deserves one.


I can't argue with this... but the WAAC arsehole in me really really wants to, lol.

Every army deserves an iconic SC that can hand people their heads and look good doing it. The Wolves have Logan. Logan, unlike a lot of uber-Characters, comes dangerously close to actually justifying the huge amount of points you pay to field him; he is a bit of a beast in CC, gives Ld test rerolls to everything within 6", gives +1 Attack to all units within 18" once per game, is Stubborn Ld10, grants whatever unit he's with one of four (very useful) special rules each turn, and he has a 2+/4++ save with Eternal Warrior. And 3 wounds.

To cap it all off, he makes Wolf Guard a Troops choice. Which opens up a whole wealth of possibilities for radically altering the way you play your army; most of which are quite bad, but some of which are every bit as good as anything else you're likely to encounter.

That's what Phil Kelly thinks 275pts should buy you. What Mat Ward thinks 275pts should buy you is The Sanguinor.

As such, I'm not confident that this new book will offer the quality SCs that Grey Knights so desperately deserve after a decade of Stern The Useless :-<



Doelago said:


> And the current one does not? My W/L ratio is still pretty much flawless.


I hope you're being sarcastic, lol.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Katie Drake said:


> Don't eat chocolate anymore.
> 
> Don't like flowers.
> 
> Bullshit, you're not buying me a house.
> 
> Don't want a yacht.
> 
> Already have a dog.
> 
> Don't eat cake anymore.
> 
> So what else ya got?
> 
> But seriously, I might get around to it. Maybe.


Well, I have a Warhound Titan standing around here....:biggrin:


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> Actually, you can. All you need to do is take Codex: Space Marines as your parent list, run Pedro Kantor as your HQ and take Sternguard Squads with your Elites and Scouts or Tacticals as Troops. Then you ally in either an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor (HQ and Elites respectively) from Codex: Witch Hunters and arm him/her with Alien Hunter-esque gear. Ta-da. Works until the Battle Sisters get a new Codex, at least.


Ah, touche, I always forget the Witch Hunters.



Katie Drake said:


> They include an Ordo Xenos HQ choice because they want people to be able to represent an Inquisition army with no other elements (basically, no Chamber Militant. It's perfectly possible to field an army with no Grey Knights, for instance. Effectiveness is another story entirely).


Right... sort of getting you here. It still seems like an odd thing to do...



Katie Drake said:


> I actually think you could represent a Deathwatch Kill Team decently enough using the rules for either a Grey Knight Strike Squad (psycannon counts-as Heavy Bolter with Hellfire Rounds and Suspensor, Incinerator counts-as specially modified heavy flamer and so on).


Except you then wouldn't have super-awesome-sexy bolter ammo. I think Pedro Marines with an allied Witch Hunter as you said before is the better representation.


----------



## GrizBe

Okay... now take this with a truck of salt, as personally I think its bollocks. I'm only repeating it for two reasons.

1) The rumoured completely different FOC of Grey Knights, and 2) It comes from a GW Regional Manager.

Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc..

As said... probably rubbish, but I'd not repeat it if not for the two given reasons.


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> Except you then wouldn't have super-awesome-sexy bolter ammo. I think Pedro Marines with an allied Witch Hunter as you said before is the better representation.


Actually, Grey Knights can take an ammunition type that makes their storm bolters S5 so...


----------



## Doelago

Frank Fugger said:


> I hope you're being sarcastic, lol.


I am pretty crap when it comes to sarcasm, thou I speak the truth.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

It really sounds like BS. Why would they do that? I can't imagine one reason why they should do that with GK when they didn't do it with all the other codizes...

And what a GW Store Managers says is most of the time real BS. They are probably the most uninformed people^^


----------



## GrizBe

Regional Manager, not Store Manager.... Regionals do tend to known stuff more then the store guys... but yeah, I really can't see how it would work or what advantage it would give other then people producing broken lists with it.


----------



## godzy

GrizBe said:


> Okay... now take this with a truck of salt, as personally I think its bollocks. I'm only repeating it for two reasons.
> 
> 1) The rumoured completely different FOC of Grey Knights, and 2) It comes from a GW Regional Manager.
> 
> Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc..
> 
> As said... probably rubbish, but I'd not repeat it if not for the two given reasons.


I guess it has something to do with termie to PA ratio, to keep things balanced.




coke123 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Katie Drake
> Actually, you can. All you need to do is take Codex: Space Marines as your parent list, run Pedro Kantor as your HQ and take Sternguard Squads with your Elites and Scouts or Tacticals as Troops. Then you ally in either an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor (HQ and Elites respectively) from Codex: Witch Hunters and arm him/her with Alien Hunter-esque gear. Ta-da. Works until the Battle Sisters get a new Codex, at least.
> Ah, touche, I always forget the Witch Hunters.


No one expects the space-nun inquisition


----------



## Katie Drake

GrizBe said:


> Okay... now take this with a truck of salt, as personally I think its bollocks. I'm only repeating it for two reasons.
> 
> 1) The rumoured completely different FOC of Grey Knights, and 2) It comes from a GW Regional Manager.
> 
> Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc..
> 
> As said... probably rubbish, but I'd not repeat it if not for the two given reasons.


Know what scares me most about this?

I actually can't deny it. I'm legitimately not sure. That's... really frightening. Please let this not be true.


----------



## Lucian Kain

That's what Phil Kelly thinks 275pts should buy you. What Mat Ward thinks 275pts should buy you is The Sanguinor.

As such, I'm not confident that this new book will offer the quality SCs that Grey Knights so desperately deserve after a decade of Stern The Useless :-<

Yea I've become slightly pescimistic about this book too even though it seems fair enough from what we gather,I guess after *waiting a fuckin decade* for a better one you start to get some ideas about what you think should be in the dex.

I hope Mat Ward finds some way to break his cycle of unpopular writeing,"ten years prick,don't make us gun you down in psycotic rage".:taunt:
In honesty I think he dose a fairly good job of balanceing but seems to rape peoples favourite units of werth.:cray:


----------



## Synack

Katie Drake said:


> Actually, Grey Knights can take an ammunition type that makes their storm bolters S5 so...


I was wondering what happened to this rumour. I take it this is psybolt ammunition then. +1S, ignores invun and possibly rending.

S5 storm bolters seems really imba on top of everything. I'd much rather upgrade the storm bolters than the swords/halbreds. A squad of 10 GK's would put out 40x S5 shots at 24" range. Even Rhinos will go down to that.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Katie Drake said:


> Know what scares me most about this?
> 
> I actually can't deny it. I'm legitimately not sure. That's... really frightening. Please let this not be true.


If this is True and unflexable The Tika's coming out,its silenced,good for about 600meters and I've got a 1000 round "tuna can" waiting for it...what did I say Mat:taunt:
I kinda dought it,shit that would realy fuck with thier ch'i


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> I was wondering what happened to this rumour. I take it this is psybolt ammunition then. +1S, ignores invun and possibly rending.


It's S5. Just S5. Nothing else. At least that's how it was when it was being playtested... could've changed.


----------



## Synack

even so, thats pretty powerful


----------



## Lucian Kain

*KD* anything Scribed???


----------



## oiad

GrizBe said:


> Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc...


Isn't this the kind of cuss you save for a new BRB? I really hope this won't leave us lop-sided compared to other codices. Testing it mid Edition doesn't sounds like a good idea...



Lucian Kain said:


> ...I hope Mat Ward finds some way to break his cycle of unpopular writeing,"ten years prick,don't make us gun you down in psycotic rage".:taunt:


Changes are a' comin' bud. One's that DH veterans who like the older fluff may dislike:
Grey Knights are rumoured to take their gene-seed from the dregs of traitor legions. [and not a potent cocktail straight from the big E]
Grey Knights wield Daemon swords.
Grey Knights are now traumatised by chaos forces.
Grey Knights that now hang out with warp ghosts.
Grey Knights that are now (minus their psychic might) just as skilled in combat as your average marine, etc.
Grey Knights are completely subservient to the ][ (Debatable depending on the source)
If all these rumours are true of course.


----------



## TheSpore

those are some odd fluff changes. why though it kinda defiles that purity the GK always had


----------



## Frank Fugger

Doelago said:


> I am pretty crap when it comes to sarcasm, thou I speak the truth.


Not doubting your winning streak. I can beat people with my Khorny Daemons, but they're still a really bad army.



GrizBe said:


> Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc..


All the rumours I've seen tend to suggest the GK book will be about Death-Star units, in which case they'd have to break the game to make it work properly. So... yeah, I'm prepared to put some stock into this.



Synack said:


> S5 storm bolters seems really imba on top of everything. I'd much rather upgrade the storm bolters than the swords/halbreds. A squad of 10 GK's would put out 40x S5 shots at 24" range. Even Rhinos will go down to that.


----------



## Irbian

Actually, about the geneseed, I think that "traitorous fusion" that Ciaphas said, its more about a loyal+traitor mix.

And he also said "think bigger" than thousands sons + whatever other chapter he said

If you have to think in something so big I would say Emperor + Huron... but please, dont hurt me for propose that idea


----------



## Synack

Just noticed I said 40 shots, but thats wrong, it's 20, which is still a decent amount.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Still enough to down a Rhino. Phew!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

About geneseed, when I read the SM codex it said there was a finite number of them, meaning no new can be made so they harvest and reuse the old ones.
So does this mean that for every geneseed that is destroyed the SMs get that much weaker? So SMs are in the same seat as Eldar in that they are slowly dying out?

In the Ultramarines movie more than 100 Imperial Fists died protecting that book, all their geneseeds were decayed beyond saving. Doesn't this mean that the Imperial Fists would be down to max 900 remaining members and would not be able to get more due to geneseed limits?

What about the traitor legions? What happens when they die? It's not like they have planets from which they draw new recruits. So for every CSM dead the galaxy is that much closer to ending the CSM threat? It's not like they are reborn in the warp? Afaik they cower inside the Eye of Terror which isn't the same thing as being inside the warp?
Only the CSM who reach daemonhood can be reborn after 1000 years of banishment if they die so arn't the CSM dying out too?

What about Grey Knights, their geneseed has to be some of the rarest in the universe? So for every one of them that dies it has to be a huge loss?


----------



## Azezel

Each marine has two Progenoid glands which grow geneseeds. One takes 5 years to mature, the other 10. Therefore each Marine can spawn two more. The Mechanicus use clones to manufacture geneseed for the founding of new chapters.

That said, it's still an inefficent process, and if a chapter is reduced in numbers past a critical level, it may never recover.


As for the GK using traitor geneseed, _any_ raitor geneseed, it's balls-out silly. Even if the Inquisition were founded by loyalists from the traitor legions, there's no need to use their geneseed, potentially incorperating their weaknesses into the GK.

When the GK were founded there were still half a dozen actual Primarchs in the Imperium, any or all of them able to provide all the pure, loyal geneseed the Inquisition could want.


----------



## Logyn

MadCowCrazy said:


> About geneseed, when I read the SM codex it said there was a finite number of them, meaning no new can be made so they harvest and reuse the old ones.
> So does this mean that for every geneseed that is destroyed the SMs get that much weaker? So SMs are in the same seat as Eldar in that they are slowly dying out?


Short answer: No, they aren't dying out.

Long Answer: The space marines have a method of duplicating their geneseed. I don't remember for certainty what source I'm paraphrasing, but basically they can clone geneseed to make more. I know the space wolves do it, but I'm not certain which other chapters make use of the method. If you think about it though, a lot of chapters would have been reduced to much lower numbers if they had no way of creating more geneseed. Either it's too hard to do too often, or the Codex Astartes says they can only have 1k marines, I forget....


----------



## hungryugolino

No, because old fluff has them force grown in lobotomized humans when more are needed. The problem is that it takes a lot of humans, and a decent number of glands. (Index Astartes) That, and the Codex's straitjacket.

Yeah, not surprising they'd kind of forget to mention that bit...


----------



## alex567

hello! of what i know the iron warriors steal gene seedes from fallen loyalist space marines, and regularly attack imperial gene seed worlds that grow gene seeds, usualy an oupost is created on a small planet out of the way so that chaos dont generaly know about it and they have a large defence force garrisoned their, it is usualy a desolate wordld with large open spaces for easy defence and so they can produce thousands of gene sedes at any one time.


----------



## boreas

Azezel said:


> As for the GK using traitor geneseed, _any_ raitor geneseed, it's balls-out silly. Even if the Inquisition were founded by loyalists from the traitor legions, there's no need to use their geneseed, potentially incorperating their weaknesses into the GK.


But what about incorporating their strengths? Death Guard, 1k sons and other traitors had desirable traits as well as undesirable ones! Also, if you take into account that all progenoid glands are not created equals (hence SM not being perfect clones "à la" Star Wars Stromtroopers), it would be desirable to use those gene that not only had the desirable tratoir traits but also had the resilience to chaos those specific individual had...

But then again, let's not forget that this is a Sci-fi universe. It's populated with pseudo-science. In the real world, it's still very debated what's the genes influence as to the final result of an indicidual's capacity and personality. In Sci-fi, genes and fates are commonly linked to create simplistic but interesting romantic effects.

Phil


----------



## TheSpore

well maybe what they are doing is telling the true origin of the GK and maybe it will involve the garro story


----------



## alex567

i wish i had a time machine, go forward in time buy the grey knight codeex go back in time and feel like the awsome one with all the info


----------



## GrizBe

Katie Drake said:


> Know what scares me most about this?
> 
> I actually can't deny it. I'm legitimately not sure. That's... really frightening. Please let this not be true.


Okay... that is kinda scarey that some-one thats had exposure to a work in progress version of the codex can't deny it....


----------



## Coyote77

MadCowCrazy said:


> About geneseed, when I read the SM codex it said there was a finite number of them, meaning no new can be made so they harvest and reuse the old ones.
> So does this mean that for every geneseed that is destroyed the SMs get that much weaker? So SMs are in the same seat as Eldar in that they are slowly dying out?
> 
> In the Ultramarines movie more than 100 Imperial Fists died protecting that book, all their geneseeds were decayed beyond saving. Doesn't this mean that the Imperial Fists would be down to max 900 remaining members and would not be able to get more due to geneseed limits?
> 
> What about the traitor legions? What happens when they die? It's not like they have planets from which they draw new recruits. So for every CSM dead the galaxy is that much closer to ending the CSM threat? It's not like they are reborn in the warp? Afaik they cower inside the Eye of Terror which isn't the same thing as being inside the warp?
> Only the CSM who reach daemonhood can be reborn after 1000 years of banishment if they die so arn't the CSM dying out too?
> 
> What about Grey Knights, their geneseed has to be some of the rarest in the universe? So for every one of them that dies it has to be a huge loss?


 Eh, CSM will probably have an easier time, what with the traitors and all. Run out of Chaos ? Offer some marines cookies to join the dark side. BA are already pushing that line.


----------



## Keecai

alex567 said:


> i wish i had a time machine, go forward in time buy the grey knight codeex go back in time and feel like the awsome one with all the info


slightly off subject but i could likely think up some better uses for that time machine!!

Anyway. any further news on the henchmen, this is the most intriguing part, especially if the options availalbe to the acolytes is correct.... mmm... combi weapons...


----------



## Irbian

I like the multiple henchmen options. You can make deathwatch count as/arbites count as/ etc etc, like a blank paper where you can write whatever you want.

And yes, I know that a henchmen with power armour and combi bolter IS NOT a deathwatch, but I just like the idea


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Okay... that is kinda scarey that some-one thats had exposure to a work in progress version of the codex can't deny it....


Huh, wouldn't this be about the henchmen warbands? Because otherwise, you can concoct lists with 18 razorbacks at 2000 points.

Here's something proposed at Dakka:


> Coteaz - 150p
> 
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
> razorback with las/plas - 80p
> 
> 1986p total


So yeah, I can see why there might be some Fantasy-esque limit in place. Hopefully the limit is only for them and nothing else.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd assume there would be something like 'No more then 25% on personal transports'. 

Also.. what kind of looser would spend £369 on just the razorbacks for that list?


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Also.. what kind of looser would spend £369 on just the razorbacks for that list?


The same people who spend £346 on fielding 9 Vendettas?


----------



## Headrush

oiad said:


> Isn't this the kind of cuss you save for a new BRB? I really hope this won't leave us lop-sided compared to other codices. Testing it mid Edition doesn't sounds like a good idea...
> 
> 
> 
> Changes are a' comin' bud. One's that DH veterans who like the older fluff may dislike:
> Grey Knights are rumoured to take their gene-seed from the dregs of traitor legions. [and not a potent cocktail straight from the big E]
> Grey Knights wield Daemon swords.
> Grey Knights are now traumatised by chaos forces.
> Grey Knights that now hang out with warp ghosts.
> Grey Knights that are now (minus their psychic might) just as skilled in combat as your average marine, etc.
> Grey Knights are completely subservient to the ][ (Debatable depending on the source)
> If all these rumours are true of course.




I'll reserve judgement until seeing the codex, but I admit this all has me...unsettled.

I never thought that fluff mattered to me so much, but after reading all the posts over and over I realized that fluff was in fact the reason why I got into 40K and made grey knights my first and only army so long ago. I remember seeing the DH codex and that picture of like 5 grey knights surrounded by hordes of daemons and then reading the fluff and seeing how unshakeable these guys were in their beliefs. I never thought they needed Dreadknights, or daemon weapons to win the unwinnable. I will adjust I suppose but I admit the geek in me is shaken by the possibilities of all this


----------



## Vhalyar

Headrush said:


> I'll reserve judgement until seeing the codex, but I admit this all has me...unsettled.
> 
> I never thought that fluff mattered to me so much, but after reading all the posts over and over I realized that fluff was in fact the reason why I got into 40K and made grey knights my first and only army so long ago. I remember seeing the DH codex and that picture of like 5 grey knights surrounded by hordes of daemons and then reading the fluff and seeing how unshakeable these guys were in their beliefs. I never thought they needed Dreadknights, or daemon weapons to win the unwinnable. I will adjust I suppose but I admit the geek in me is shaken by the possibilities of all this


Oiad is being pretty heavy-handed.

Grey Knights are rumoured to take their gene-seed from the dregs of traitor legions. [and not a potent cocktail straight from the big E]
- That would be the gene-seed of the few that remained loyal from the Traitor Legions, in other words those who could resist the corruption. If you combine their effects, it can be explained that defects can be removed to create an even stronger marine (such as the resilience of the Deathguard preventing the Thousand Son's mutations while keeping their psychic power). Sounds more interesting to me than coming straight from the Emperor.

Grey Knights wield Daemon swords.
- One guy does. Go figure why it hasn't been destroyed, but they're not handing out daemonic weapons to everyone. Apparently they now keep guard over the chaos relics that the Emperor had collected. I could see them destroying everything else, but out of respect for the Emperor keeping his toys.

Grey Knights are now traumatised by chaos forces.
- Perhaps wait until we see how and what exactly caused this? I imagine that being the sole survivor from an entire fortress-world worth of brothers sucks. Perhaps Mordrack was only a wee battle-brother back then.

Grey Knights that now hang out with warp ghosts.
- Is that actually an issue? It's not like we know whether they are actually ghosts or just a psychic manifestation in the shape of those who died. What's the difference between shaping your psychic power into a pillar of fire and creating a psychic construct?

Grey Knights that are now (minus their psychic might) just as skilled in combat as your average marine, etc.
- It's not exactly fair to say "they're exactly the same!... If you remove their psychic powers". Especially if their storm bolter can be used as pistols. Not everything has to be reflected in the statline. If you add the SB and Hammerhand you get +1S, +1A compared to marines anyway.

Grey Knights are completely subservient to the ][ (Debatable depending on the source)
- Commissar expressed the opposite, saying that they're free to fight their own battles, but will answer requests from the Inquisition since it benefits them in a variety of ways.


----------



## boreas

Thanks Valhyar for that dose of moderation. 

I'd +rep you, but it seems I must spread it around 

Phil


----------



## alex567

i apologise if im repeating anything, but do grey knight nemesis force weapons count as force weapons. i.e suck your soul and power weapons or just suck your soul, or if not then what advantages do they confer?


----------



## coke123

There's been talk of them acting as a sort of focus for a force weapons i.e. out of the entire squad's attacks, a single wound can allow a psychic test to cause instant death.


----------



## aboytervigon

I just wonder if the codex is hard back.


----------



## GrizBe

aboytervigon said:


> I just wonder if the codex is hard back.


I'd think Katie would know... but she's not said anything.


----------



## alex567

so their not power weapons but work the same as if one guy had made all the attacks for the purposes of the phsycic test (so their is only one leadership test taken) so does anyone know if this works on daemons or do their " we are gits so we dont die eternal warrior" rule just ignore it? i apologise if im asking to many questions, its just im curious


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Won't be hard-back. GW already said that hard-back is not planned for 40k.


----------



## alex567

Akhara'Keth said:


> Won't be hard-back. GW already said that hard-back is not planned for 40k.


sad news


----------



## GrizBe

Akhara'Keth said:


> Won't be hard-back. GW already said that hard-back is not planned for 40k.


Where? I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

But you can make it hard-back very easy:

1. Buy the GK codex
2. Buy the Tomb Kings Codex
3. cut out all pages of the Tomb Kings codex
4. cut out all pages of the GK Codex
5. Put the pages of the GK codex in the empty hard-back 
6. Scan the GK Codex front and back
7. Print out the pics
7. Glue them on the hard-back
8. Enjoy! :grin:


Don't remember it exactly, read it in another forum after people asked the same question.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Akhara'Keth said:


> But you can make it hard-back very easy:
> 
> 1. Buy the GK codex
> 2. Buy the Tomb Kings Codex
> 3. cut out all pages of the Tomb Kings codex
> 4. cut out all pages of the GK Codex
> 5. Put the pages of the GK codex in the empty hard-back
> 6. Scan the GK Codex front and back
> 7. Print out the pics
> 7. Glue them on the hard-back
> 8. Enjoy! :grin:
> 
> 
> Don't remember it exactly, read it in another forum after people asked the same question.


Cry as you have just cut apart and glue £30 worth of books....:russianroulette:


----------



## alex567

Akhara'Keth said:


> Won't be hard-back. GW already said that hard-back is not planned for 40k.


they would make alot more money if they did them in hard back the only downside is they would last longer so less money over alonger period


----------



## Akhara'Keth

OrdoMalleus said:


> Cry as you have just cut apart and glue £30 worth of books....:russianroulette:


But you would be the only person on earth with a hard-back GK codex^^ That's worth more than 30 £


----------



## coke123

alex567 said:


> so their not power weapons but work the same as if one guy had made all the attacks for the purposes of the phsycic test (so their is only one leadership test taken) so does anyone know if this works on daemons or do their " we are gits so we dont die eternal warrior" rule just ignore it? i apologise if im asking to many questions, its just im curious


No idea. I seem to remember something about them all having power weapons and hammerhand (+1S psychic power) as well as the option of having one force weapon test for the entire squad. So you could choose to make the whole squad S5, or insta-kill on a single wound. I know what I'd be doing...


----------



## alex567

coke123 said:


> No idea. I seem to remember something about them all having power weapons and hammerhand (+1S psychic power) as well as the option of having one force weapon test for the entire squad. So you could choose to make the whole squad S5, or insta-kill on a single wound. I know what I'd be doing...


i thought the force weapon bit was from the wounds so lets say you had 3 grey knights (not good with big numbers  ) wich charge so 9 attacks causing 5 hits and 2 wounds, i supposed that you would have to take one leadership test on those the same way you only have to take one leadership test when using a force weapon one one model (but weapons s4), if it is just one attack then id rather just screw the rule and take the s5 attacks more likely to kill


----------



## Katie Drake

> Grey Knights are rumoured to take their gene-seed from the dregs of traitor legions. [and not a potent cocktail straight from the big E]


Don't know anything about this one.



> Grey Knights wield Daemon swords.


One Grey Knight uses a Daemon Sword because so far it has been impossible to destroy and the Knights won't risk it being found by another follower of the Dark Gods. He doesn't actually draw upon its power though, he simply uses it like one would a mundane sword and refuses its temptations.



> Grey Knights are now traumatised by chaos forces.


Honestly, this just makes sense. I thought it was stupid that Grey Knights were basically entirely impossible to phase in any real way, at least psychologically/spiritually. Talk about boring.



> Grey Knights that now hang out with warp ghosts.


This is an oversimplification. The individual that has Ghost Knights help him out is basically haunted by dead allies who some think have returned from the dead to help the Grey Knights defeat whoever it was that killed them in the first place (I forget the details).



> Grey Knights that are now (minus their psychic might) just as skilled in combat as your average marine, etc.


A Space Marine is a Space Marine. Yes, their characteristics are the same as that of a Tactical Marine now, but they have better wargear and incredible psychic powers to make them better than other Marines.



> Grey Knights are completely subservient to the ][ (Debatable depending on the source)


No idea on this one.



GrizBe said:


> I'd think Katie would know... but she's not said anything.


Actually, I have no idea. I'd assume not though.


----------



## Azezel

alex567 said:


> so their not power weapons but work the same as if one guy had made all the attacks for the purposes of the phsycic test (so their is only one leadership test taken) so does anyone know if this works on daemons or do their " we are gits so we dont die eternal warrior" rule just ignore it? i apologise if im asking to many questions, its just im curious


Point A: Please learn where to use 'their', 'there' and 'they're'. I don't often call people out on that, but your post was simply jarring to the eye. Also, maybe some capital letters, periods and paragraphs? At least you can spell, there's that.

Point B: We don't actually know if any NFW will work as a Force Weapon, or if so, which and when. The rumour is that only one weapon per squad will cause Instant Death. Given that avoiding Instant Death is the point of Eternal Warrior, it seems unlikely that NFWs will overcome that.

In the unlikely situation that NFWs count as Force Weapons, but _not_ Power Weapons I shall be happy, since my Sisters are immune to Force Weapons.


----------



## alex567

Azezel said:


> Point A: Please learn where to use 'their', 'there' and 'they're'. I don't often call people out on that, but your post was simply jarring to the eye. Also, maybe some capital letters, periods and paragraphs? At least you can spell, there's that.


Yeah, i apologise for that, i have dificulty when it comes to 'their', 'there' and 'they're', and i was busy trying to complete your typical mundane task of cleaning the dishes will typing this (as not to fall behind with the information), so i could not punctuate my text properly, the only reason i spell correctly is to stop grammar nazi's getting involved, but again i apologise for the mis-punctuation of said piece.


----------



## oiad

Come on, simplified/embellished maybe. But it's just quick sum-up of what had been told to us, albeit under a different PoV. Not some angry rant. Still, love how people couldn't resist having a go. Lol.
I've never been a fan of the notion that their gene-seed was implemented due to a character's level of loyalty or purity. It's like saying you believe your own genes will straight-out determine whether you'll be a coward. Such a characteristic imo is likely determined more by nurture than nature - down to their unique indoctrination, training, etc, and overall character-interaction.
Yes it was embellished. It's nice to get some info on this rather than leave us wondering.
Some may find unshakable boring. Others wonder how does your force stand a chance in hell (literally) when they're not. Besides it's not like making someone fearful is the only way to add fun/drama...
When your Ordo even see Living Saints as being a threat from the Warp you have to wonder why the exception here. So far they've been described as 'apparitions'. Sure, it's open to interpretation - like most things. But even psychic constructs aren't off the Ordos' potential hit-list - see the Sanguinor.
Yeah, give the exact low-down to any psyker-marine and I doubt they'd be much different. Besides, has this SB as a pistol thing actually been confirmed by a rumour-monger yet? I'd be genuinely interested to know as I thought it was just forum chatter...
As said, debatable depending on the source. See the Tastytaste's rumours for the opposite view.


----------



## Winterous

oiad said:


> [*]I've never been a fan of the notion that their gene-seed was implemented due to a character's level of loyalty or purity. It's like saying you believe your own genes will straight-out determine whether you'll be a coward. Such a characteristic imo is likely determined more by nurture than nature - down to their unique indoctrination, training, etc, and overall character-interaction.


Keeping in mind of course that the Imperium is made up of religious fanatics who have very little understanding of certain aspects of science.


----------



## coke123

alex567 said:


> i thought the force weapon bit was from the wounds so lets say you had 3 grey knights (not good with big numbers  ) wich charge so 9 attacks causing 5 hits and 2 wounds, i supposed that you would have to take one leadership test on those the same way you only have to take one leadership test when using a force weapon one one model (but weapons s4), if it is just one attack then id rather just screw the rule and take the s5 attacks more likely to kill


That's pretty much what I meant. You should probably be mindful that I'm only repeating rumours I've seen on this thread; I haven't seen it myself.


----------



## rasolyo

This has probably already been discussed earlier, but after skimming through the BA codex I've noticed that BA already have cheaper, faster Immolators in their Razorback choices.

Granted their expensive cargo offsets the cost, but I just hope that Sisters will get more love when it comes to moving 12" and popping a twin-linked heavy flamer in the enemy's face.

At least we know Ward won't be doing Codex: SOB.

_Or will he?_ Dun dun DUUUN.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

GrizBe said:


> Okay... now take this with a truck of salt, as personally I think its bollocks. I'm only repeating it for two reasons.
> 
> 1) The rumoured completely different FOC of Grey Knights, and 2) It comes from a GW Regional Manager.
> 
> Rumour is, that Grey Knights will see a 'Fantasy' style force selection. In that instead of the 'you take so many of X slot', you can take as many of something as you want, so long as it doesn't exceed a percentage value of your total points. So as Fantasy, 25% for HQ, 50% for troops etc etc..
> 
> As said... probably rubbish, but I'd not repeat it if not for the two given reasons.


2nd edition 40k used to use percentages. 25% on HQ, 50% on support (including allies), etc.

It lead to all kinds of interesting armies. Imperial guard running around with Wolf Guard. The Angels of Death Codex (BA and DA in one book), lead to a lot of BA armies with Ravenwing bikes, and some DA armies fielding Death Companies. At least around where I played. 

The percentages aren't really that big a deal though, if you think about it:

Let's assume for a minute that you can have "up to" these percentages:
Percentages: 2000Pt army:​
25% HQ 500Pts​
75% Troops 1500Pts​
50% Fast Attack 1000Pts​
50% Heavy Support 1000Pts​
50% Elites 1000Pts​

Just because you can use 1500pts for Troops doesn't mean you're going to. And yes, it would be very rare to see someone spend 1000Pts on their Heavy Support, but then you realize that those points are no longer available to build a viable army and it becomes much less worrisome. If you look at your army lists now, you'll probably find that you fall within these ranges already. And IIRC, in 2nd edition some of your buckets had minimum percentages, like I think Troops HAD to be AT LEAST 25% of your points.

The downside becomes smaller games. If it is 25% for HQ, and you're playing a 750Pt game, you only have 187Pts (rounded down) to spend on an HQ. That means you're not fielding that 275Pt SC that is a monster, but you are thinking more strategically about your choices.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Judas Masias

I don't know if this has been posted but i found some realy sweet info on the Dredknight.
Also here is the link: http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/

The Grey Knights Dread Knight is based on the concept of hummanity constructing a large fighting rig that would enable a skilled pilot to battle monstrous creatures at their own level. Think of the Power Lifter in ALIENS and you're on the money.

While the Nemesis DreadKnight may be ugly as sin, I guarantee you that every Grey Knights player is going to have one, if not three. Especially when they only cost 130 points basic.

Now is the time for us Space Wolves players to figure out how best to kill it. It's what we're good at after all!

We had plenty of warning when the new Tyranid swarm was approaching. We had even more when Blood Angels rumours were sweeping the web.

Both times we put our heads together (it sounded like a bowling alley) and figured it out. Remember that the Space Wolves are capable of anything. That's the whole point of us.

So What Is It?
It's a Monstrous Creature with lots of wounds, high strength, high toughness and a 2+ save as well as a 4+ invulnerable save.

You can clearly see 3 weapon options:

Heavy Psycannon: Str 7 AP 4 36" Heavy 6?, Rending
Heavy Incinerator: Str 6 AP 4 Template, Rending, Fires Like Inferno Cannon
Nemesis Force Weapon: ?

Nemesis Dreadknight: 130 Points 
WS 5 BS ? S 7 T 7 W 4 I 4 A 3 Sv 2+/4++ 

Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points (Unit can move as though they have a jump pack. Once per game, the unit may move 30", but may not assault afterwards.)
Special Rules: Monstrous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1 (an use 1 psychic power per turn for each level)
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand (+1 strength in Close Combat), Holocaust (S5 AP - Large Blast 12")


----------



## raven925

I dont know, at first i thought the percentages would be a bad idea, but when i think about it, it might be kinda fun. As stated before, it may allow for some crazy, fun combinations. But also bringing along a sense of tactics in smaller games. Then again, how many people would take all heavy support?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

raven925 said:


> Then again, how many people would take all heavy support?


/me looks over at the Exorcists in Codex Witch Hunters and compare them to everything else in the codex.... Hmm, 10 of these in a 1500 point game... :crazy:


----------



## Frank Fugger

MadCowCrazy said:


> /me looks over at the Exorcists in Codex Witch Hunters and compare them to everything else in the codex.... Hmm, 10 of these in a 1500 point game... :crazy:


Gimme the 10 Immolators and the 10 dual-special squads instead.


Or 18 Penitent Engines. Aw yeah


----------



## Lucian Kain

raven925 said:


> I dont know, at first i thought the percentages would be a bad idea, but when i think about it, it might be kinda fun. As stated before, it may allow for some crazy, fun combinations. But also bringing along a sense of tactics in smaller games. Then again, how many people would take all heavy support?


It all depends on where the percentage caps sit.It could cripple the ability to make a good list or work in favour...Its all up to our "buddy" Mat:rtfm:

HS.At % of 2000pts gets ,
,25% gets 3 dreadknights/2 landraiders/2 pergation squads/4dreads
,50% gets 7 dreadknights/OR 4 landraiders?ish/OR 4 pergation squads/8 dreads
,75% gets 11 dreadknights/6 landraiders?ish/6 pergation squads/13 dreads

If hes sensible It'll be ok but like its already been said at smaller point games who knows


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> /me looks over at the Exorcists in Codex Witch Hunters and compare them to everything else in the codex.... Hmm, 10 of these in a 1500 point game... :crazy:


I always used 3 exos in my sisters army I can only imagine using more than 3 how evil and down right wrong it would be.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

TheSpore said:


> I always used 3 exos in my sisters army I can only imagine using more than 3 how evil and down right wrong it would be.


Sad thing 3 are pretty much mandatory because they are so random, sometimes they are awesome, sometimes it's rather meh.

I hope they change their fire rules in the new codex, like 2D3 missiles or side sponsons that increase the roll by 2 so you have 3-8 missiles each turn.
I'm also hoping for fire options similar to those the whirlwind and thunderfire cannon has.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Alternatively don't take any at all; the 135pts you pay for an Exo will get you an Immolator and 5 ISTs with Plasma Guns to go in it.


----------



## boreas

Well, they DE wave is here and... boy o boy I can't wait to see my GKs!!! If they quality is anywhere near (and there's no reason to think otherwise), I'll be crying with joy!

Phil


----------



## TheSpore

MadCowCrazy said:


> Sad thing 3 are pretty much mandatory because they are so random, sometimes they are awesome, sometimes it's rather meh.
> 
> I hope they change their fire rules in the new codex, like 2D3 missiles or side sponsons that increase the roll by 2 so you have 3-8 missiles each turn.
> I'm also hoping for fire options similar to those the whirlwind and thunderfire cannon has.


Yeah im hoping they do a couple changes but weaken them since its one there best units. i love the d6 shots but im hoping they will make them all plastic and chang the look a lil becauseits kinda of misleading to be a direct fire weapon


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Sad thing 3 are pretty much mandatory because they are so random, sometimes they are awesome, sometimes it's rather meh.


I'd expect Exorcists to change to having a flat rate of fire, Heavy 4 or something. GW has been more or less doing away with random rates of fire for a while now, at least on "big" things (there are some smaller/weaker attacks that still use it, but they're hardly game deciding on their own).


----------



## TheSpore

Katie Drake said:


> I'd expect Exorcists to change to having a flat rate of fire, Heavy 4 or something. GW has been more or less doing away with random rates of fire for a while now, at least on "big" things (there are some smaller/weaker attacks that still use it, but they're hardly game deciding on their own).


If they do that ide still be happy as long as its still a S8 AP 1 missile and not downgraded which i cant see that happening.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> I'd expect Exorcists to change to having a flat rate of fire, Heavy 4 or something.


Or they could just leave it as-is and reduce the cost. Exos still wouldn't be worth taking unless they drastically change the way the army works - y'know, so that long range fire support was something the Sisters actually needed - but they would at least be a more appealing prospect.


----------



## Azezel

All I'd do to the Exorcist is bump it up to 150 points, give it rending and make each Weapon Destroyed add a cumulative -1 to the number of shots.

That'd give us a very respectable anti-AV14 solution, which we currently lack.


EDIT - Frank, not to be confrontational, but for their points, the Exorcist is one of the best tanks, hell, one of the best units of any kind in the game.

And given that it's the Sisters _only_ ranged fire support, you can't say they don't need it.


----------



## TheSpore

Jeebus its not like its classified info. that is a threat to national security. 

Back on the exo. The exo doesn't need any real changes just only a change in the model itself. It has great armour and the weapon on is great as well. Maybe they give it sponsons if they wanna bump the pt.s cost but really good the way it is


----------



## Frank Fugger

Azezel said:


> All I'd do to the Exorcist is bump it up to 150 points, give it rending and make each Weapon Destroyed add a cumulative -1 to the number of shots.
> 
> That'd give us a very respectable anti-AV14 solution, which we currently lack.


... apart from, y'know... cheap (70pts for 2 Meltaguns and 5 ISTs? Gimme!) dual Meltaguns on every single squad in every single FoC slot except Heavy Support. That's a reasonable anti-AV14 solution to my mind, having tons of Melta everywhere.

You can quite easily fit in 10 of them at 1250pts. I don't know of any other army that can field 10 vehicles AND 10 squads with so much firepower at 1250pts.



> EDIT - Frank, not to be confrontational, but for their points, the Exorcist is one of the best tanks, hell, one of the best units of any kind in the game.


D6 S8 AP1 missiles is plenty of killy. So is a Demolisher Cannon. Problem is, wether we're talking Vindicators or Exorcists, fact is a single Weapon Destroyed result turns it into a rolling terrain piece.

They're both as bad as each other. It's a shame too, because the Exorcist model is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in my whole 40k-playing days. Right alongside Karamazov on his Lazyboy Of Doom.

He sucks too 



> And given that it's the Sisters _only_ ranged fire support, you can't say they don't need it.


It's not just the Exorcist they don't need. It's ANY fire support, period. They just don't need it. It detracts from the number of vehicles you field, y'see, and the less vehicles you have the less special weapon squads you're flinging around the table.


Make it cheaper, give it sponsons (not sponsons that augment the organ thing; ACTUAL sponsons that let it torrent and count as seperate weapons), and you're good.


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> I'd expect Exorcists to change to having a flat rate of fire, Heavy 4 or something. GW has been more or less doing away with random rates of fire for a while now, at least on "big" things (there are some smaller/weaker attacks that still use it, but they're hardly game deciding on their own).


The reason the Exorcist has a random rate of fire is due to it's fluff. No two Exorcist organs are the same. They are each handcrafted, which gives it a different rate of fire.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So we now had the Dark Eldar wave 1.5 newsletters (huge disappointment in their SoB price point) but this should mean Grey Knights are in the next news letter unless it's the O&G release newsletter but as we should get a newsletter at mid/end next week. It would be too early for a O&G newsletter so GKs should be next 

Wouldn't be surprised if the pictures we get are the ones Katie posted earlier


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> So we now had the Dark Eldar wave 1.5 newsletters (huge disappointment in their SoB price point)


Wait, what?

For those of us who don't get the newsletter, what'd it say about Sisters?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Azezel said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> For those of us who don't get the newsletter, what'd it say about Sisters?


Nothing as far as I can see, not sure what MCC means?


----------



## OpTi

he means they are REALLY expensive to field even a single unit


----------



## MadCowCrazy

OpTi said:


> he means they are REALLY expensive to field even a single unit


A Canoness costs 8.20£, the Succubus costs the same and the birds cost 7.70£, the rest cost more.
So basically they all have Sisters of Battle prices making them rather expensive to field. I used to think those Gamezone minis were expensive but after seeing the prices for the metal DE I've decided to only use Gamezone minis for my Beasts masters.

Why the hell buy a Single Bestmaster for 8.70£ when you can buy an entire Helion box with 5 for 15.50£, it's the same damn mini with a different head and torso!?

Meh, I might buy 1 of each.... /me looks over at the InstantMold box....hmmmm....


----------



## normtheunsavoury

MadCowCrazy said:


> A Canoness costs 8.20£, the Succubus costs the same and the birds cost 7.70£, the rest cost more.
> So basically they all have Sisters of Battle prices making them rather expensive to field. I used to think those Gamezone minis were expensive but after seeing the prices for the metal DE I've decided to only use Gamezone minis for my Beasts masters.
> 
> Why the hell buy a Single Bestmaster for 8.70£ when you can buy an entire Helion box with 5 for 15.50£, it's the same damn mini with a different head and torso!?
> 
> Meh, I might buy 1 of each.... /me looks over at the InstantMold box....hmmmm....


Right, now I understand I shall go back to lurkingk:


----------



## Winterous

Frank Fugger said:


> D6 S8 AP1 missiles is plenty of killy. So is a Demolisher Cannon. Problem is, wether we're talking Vindicators or Exorcists, fact is a single Weapon Destroyed result turns it into a rolling terrain piece.
> 
> They're both as bad as each other.


*snigger*
Nice joke man, Vindicators BAD.
Very clever.


----------



## Dynamike

The thing is that I see the Exorcist and the Vindicator serving different purposes. 

The subject was about anti-vehicle. Now, if you shoot with a Vindicator, it will always be 1 S10 shot Vs the Exorcist shooting D6 S8. To me the Exorcist is far better than Vindicators against vehicles. 

As for fighting other types of units, it's a whole other debate.

Btw anyone shot down a Stormraven with a shot of a Vindicator? The idea of that happening is kinda funny...


----------



## Lucian Kain

I like this little combo:
-Nemesis Hammers +1,S
-Hammer Hand +1,S
-Might of Titan +1,S +D6 ap (Accumulative apparently)
-QuickSilver I,10 

Verry Killy GreyKnights and almost melta on vehicals In CC

What dose *Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo *do that makes him worth while???Have I missed a fairly comprehensive rundown of his abilities?sorry if I have in advance.

Mordrak and Castellan Crow seem to be the go


----------



## soulreaver296

He's a gm so he has "the grand strategy" (that d3 units get rule x thing) he makes paladins troops without using that rule (so you can use the grand strategy on your gunda- I mean, dreadknights to make them scoring), and he is pimped out in stats, psyker powers, and equipment (like SS and SB and a named sword (debate on what it does, last i heard was s10 vs daemons and psykers)). He's a little bit Calgar (army boost) and a little bit mephiston (killy death machine). Better than either? Hard to say, as there may still be more to it than what we know, and things may still have changed from then till now. BUT, I can't help but hope that the model will be epic


----------



## Mathai

So basically he's a little bit country _AND_ a little bit rock and roll?


----------



## Winterous

What soulreaver said, pretty much.
He's also a fairly powerful Psyker, with one or two nasty powers.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Mathai said:


> So basically he's a little bit country _AND_ a little bit rock and roll?


Yea exactly,oh well...maybe hes half Vampire half WareWolf,stronger than both.


----------



## soulreaver296

And does anyone else foresee a great amount of shenanigans happening involving the summoning? like assaulting a unit with gk squad 1, then yanking them back out the next movement phase, shooting with gk squads 1&2, then assault with gk squad 2? (basically, keep getting the bonus for charging, or denying THEIR bonus, while keeping both squads fresh, AND GETTING TO SHOOT WITH BOTH SQUADS EACH TURN AS WELL). Or even just pulling out a squad that was drawing enemy forces on the other side of the board. So tarpits get destroyed faster, half the opponents army is going the wrong way, and those paladins you were chasing down are tearing up your fire base/objective holders.


----------



## Vhalyar

As long as you're lucky and The Summoning doesn't result in your friendly unit scattering on top of your Librarian.


----------



## Synack

soulreaver296 said:


> He's a gm so he has "the grand strategy" (that d3 units get rule x thing) he makes paladins troops without using that rule (so you can use the grand strategy on your gunda- I mean, dreadknights to make them scoring), and he is pimped out in stats, psyker powers, and equipment (like SS and SB and a named sword (debate on what it does, last i heard was s10 vs daemons and psykers)). He's a little bit Calgar (army boost) and a little bit mephiston (killy death machine). Better than either? Hard to say, as there may still be more to it than what we know, and things may still have changed from then till now. BUT, I can't help but hope that the model will be epic


He's also S5, T5 and EW. So very hard to kill.


----------



## Synack

From Bok



> *Nemesis Ward Staff can be only bought for one Grey Knight per squad. So that means only one will be able to take one of those mean wounds.
> *Unlike reported before by me and others GKT do not get Storms Shields (with very few exceptions). That means you are stuck with sucky +5 invul saves on termies. What you do get instead is all nemesis force weapons grant a +1 to all invul saves in assault. That means +4 saves in close combat.
> *A full man unit of Paladins average around 600-800 for 10 of them. So don’t expect to spam many of them.
> *Add to that the Paladin Captain that makes them troops is the most expensive model in the codex over the cost of a Land Raider.
> *Sadly the Dread Knight MC thingy cannot be put in a Stormraven.
> *The worst change that I hinted at back when I first reported the rumors last year. The whole Teleporting Grey Knight once per game thing is for the Grey Knight squads in the Fast Attack slot. That means those guys and the Stormraven are your only FA choices in the entire codex. Normal GKs will not be able to teleport in the game.


I posted on BoK in the comments too. Tasty sorta confirmed there's SC's that we don't know about, but he mentioned upgrade characters, so we could see some squad upgrade characters.

I've also asked from some more infor about the +1 to invuns. I'm wondering if it works like the slaneesh mark (have I got the right god), where the units get +1 to invuns, but units with no invun get a basica 6++ or 5++. Hopefully we'll get some info about that.


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> I've also asked from some more infor about the +1 to invuns. I'm wondering if it works like the slaneesh mark (have I got the right god), where the units get +1 to invuns, but units with no invun get a basica 6++ or 5++. Hopefully we'll get some info about that.


Nemesis Force Swords add +1 to any existing Invulnerable save in close combat, but don't do anything special for units that don't have an Invul to begin with. So no 6+ Invul power armored Grey Knights.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Winterous said:


> *snigger*
> Nice joke man, Vindicators BAD.
> Very clever.


Yes, they are hilarious. My favourite part was where someone spent 115pts on an S10 cannon to fire at my Rhinos.



Dynamike said:


> The thing is that I see the Exorcist and the Vindicator serving different purposes.
> 
> The subject was about anti-vehicle. Now, if you shoot with a Vindicator, it will always be 1 S10 shot Vs the Exorcist shooting D6 S8. To me the Exorcist is far better than Vindicators against vehicles.
> 
> As for fighting other types of units, it's a whole other debate.


My point is, no matter what purpose they serve, they're both liabilities and thus are not good things to bring. The Exorcist is slightly less "bad" than the Vindicator because it's single weapon has a 48" range, so it can sit at the back and shoot instead of being forced into midfield.

The fact neither army needs these expensive liability units makes it all the more worrying when you see people putting them into lists.


----------



## Lesiu

Katie Drake said:


> Nemesis Force Swords add +1 to any existing Invulnerable save in close combat, but don't do anything special for units that don't have an Invul to begin with. So no 6+ Invul power armored Grey Knights.


That would explain why terminators can swap sword for halbred for free while GKs in PA have to pay for it.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lesiu said:


> That would explain why terminators can swap sword for halbred for free while GKs in PA have to pay for it.


Yup.  For Terminators there's an actual tradeoff, whereas the power armored Grey Knights only benefit from taking alternate force weapon types.


----------



## Synack

So it's ONLY the swords that give +1 Invun?

Also, what HQs can take warding staffs?


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> So it's ONLY the swords that give +1 Invun?
> 
> Also, what HQs can take warding staffs?


Yeah, just the swords. It's basically the only reason you wouldn't swap them out for anything else on Terminators.

I'm too lazy to check right now, but I think any Grey Knight HQ can take one that isn't a special character or a Brotherhood Champion, so that's a Grand Master, Brother Captain or Librarian.


----------



## Synack

GM with 2++ would be about the only model I'd bother putting it on or the Librarian.

*edit* Hrmm, looking at the current GM load out, he's got a 4++ and a Nemesis Force Weapon (sword), which means he'll have a 4++ vs shooting and a 3++ in CC.


----------



## Winterous

Can every model in a unit of Paladins take a Warding Stave?
And are they Force weapons like the rest, or are they JUST a Power weapon with a 2++?


----------



## Brovius

Winterous said:


> Can every model in a unit of Paladins take a Warding Stave?
> And are they Force weapons like the rest, or are they JUST a Power weapon with a 2++?


Id say it's a force weapon too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a power weapon. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that only one Paladin per squad can take the Warding Stave.

I'm sure Katie will correct me if i'm wrong though :grin:


----------



## Synack

Probably just a power weapon.


----------



## Logyn

It's a force weapon. (90% sure)

It's still got nemesis in its name, and from what I understand, it's the unit that makes the insta-gib test, not the model, so it wouldn't make sense to have a random not-force weapon in a sea of force weapons.


----------



## TheSpore

I have a feeling im gonna have to stop playin daemons for lil while until the GK craze dies down a lil!!!


----------



## soulreaver296

woah woah woah WOAH.... nemesis force swords give +1 to invul saves in CC? you know that means that Supreme Badass Draigo, if this is right, has a 2++ save in melee? he just went from ridiculous to outright insane.


----------



## Synack

Draigo has a storm shield and the titan sword, which AFAIK, is not a nemesis weapon, so he gets no +1 invun. He's still pretty bad ass tho


----------



## soulreaver296

True, I was assuming that the titan sword counted as a nemesis weapon, but we'll have to see. If it is a NFS, and it stacks with his stormshield? we may have a character who can go toe to toe with ABADDON. Of course, its pretty much a stalemate (even with +4 attacks from his daemon weapon AND the charge, we're only talking about .73 wounds to Draigo, while taking .66 back). And how right and epic would that be, the pinnacles of light and dark in an epic struggle as opposed to a one sided beat down. One can dream


----------



## Katie Drake

soulreaver296 said:


> True, I was assuming that the titan sword counted as a nemesis weapon, but we'll have to see.


It isn't, I checked. He's already tougher than Lysander... haha.

"The Titansword: The Titansword is a master-crafted force weapon with the Daemonbane rule. Additionally, any close combat attacks that Draigo directs against a unit that contains one or more Daemons or Psykers are resolved at Strength 10."


----------



## Synack

Oh snap, it's a forceweapon too! Hectic. Also that wording is pretty bad ass. It means he doesn't actually have to be hitting a physker to get S10, there simply needs to be one in the unit he's attacking to get S10.

Thats pretty sick. He just got a whole lot better in my eyes.


----------



## soulreaver296

Damn, guess we'll just have to wait for abaddon to get nerfed.


----------



## Irbian

Katie Drake said:


> It isn't, I checked. He's already tougher than Lysander... haha.
> 
> "The Titansword: The Titansword is a master-crafted force weapon with the Daemonbane rule. Additionally, any close combat attacks that Draigo directs against a unit that contains one or more Daemons or Psykers are resolved at Strength 10."


Sorry, I laughed maniacally with the idea of this sword. DIe filthy daemon! Die mephiston!


----------



## raven925

I still want Storm Shields...NAOW! I dont want shity 4++ save even AFTER i give them that sword...


----------



## soulreaver296

plus... gkts? with swords and shields? can you say EPIC MODELS?


----------



## TheSpore

GW has forged its new cash cow and comes in the form of GKs. May god have mercy on our souls.


----------



## raven925

TheSpore said:


> GW has forged its new cash cow and comes in the form of GKs. May god have mercy on our souls.


Good sir, i think you mean "may the blood god have mercy on our souls":so_happy:


----------



## Irbian

"May the sacred Emperor have mercy on our wallets"


----------



## raven925

Irbian said:


> "May the sacred Emperor have mercy on our wallets"


^Exactly

The only thing i find kinda messed up is that they put those nemesis swords in the codex knowing that if you wanted to use them, you would have to buy the new models just to get them, leaving the metal models out of the picture. Just another way to make sales..


----------



## TheSpore

everyone knows that slaanesh and tzeench run GW which explains many things


----------



## Katie Drake

raven925 said:


> I still want Storm Shields...NAOW! I dont want shity 4++ save even AFTER i give them that sword...


Do you mean that you don't want a 4+ Invulnerable save even after you spend absolutely no extra points?

Didn't think so.


----------



## Synack

Katie, can you confirm the invun save that paladins get? I'm seeing in some places people are reporting they have a 4++ generic, but from what I've read, this is wrong and they just have normal termie armour for a 5++.

Also, I see that Draigo is Fearless, which seems pointless if some of the other choices aren't fearless, as he'll just end up running away with what ever squad he has joined on to. Are Paladin's fearless too?


----------



## raven925

Katie Drake said:


> Do you mean that you don't want a 4+ Invulnerable save even after you spend absolutely no extra points?
> 
> Didn't think so.


No, I don't.


----------



## bhsman

Do we have any idea yet when the preview books will start showing up? I've heard anywhere from March 4th to March 13th.


----------



## coke123

I was talking to a guy I trust yesterday. Apparently the Black Boxes are all put together and ready to go out; it's just a matter of when they actually do it. So it's possible that they could come as early as next week; but I personally doubt GW would send them out so early.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Hello to everybody ^^

Just few questions.

how much is vehicles' discipline?

Anyone knows rules and cost of grand master's options?

I wonder how orbital strike will be ^^


P.S. many thanks to katie and the other "rumormongers"


----------



## Irbian

@coke123: It was told that 12 march or something like that

@Siegfried: Did you try looking in the first page?


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Irbian said:


> @Siegfried: Did you try looking in the first page?


yep ^^
not found


----------



## Champion Alaric

raven925 said:


> ^Exactly
> 
> The only thing i find kinda messed up is that they put those nemesis swords in the codex knowing that if you wanted to use them, you would have to buy the new models just to get them, leaving the metal models out of the picture. Just another way to make sales..


The old Grey Knights had a few models that came with swords..I know I got at least 3 termies with swords already, but ya i can see the irritation..it seems the swords are a lil better than the glaives/halberds


----------



## Doelago

Wait, what, but from some of the comments I have randomly popped in and read, I got the feeling that I wont be able to arm my Termies with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields? Is that true? :cray:


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Doelago said:


> Wait, what, but from some of the comments I have randomly popped in and read, I got the feeling that I wont be able to arm my Termies with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields? Is that true? :cray:


So it seems....sad but true


----------



## Doelago

Thou I shall express my opinion about this.










Die whoever fucks idea it was.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Poor imperial guard 
He's not guilty XD


----------



## Doelago

Brother Siegfrid said:


> Poor imperial guard
> He's not guilty XD


Ouh, he pretty much is, for he represents the standard Imperial Gua, erh, Games Workshop employee.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Brother Siegfrid said:


> Hello to everybody ^^
> 
> Just few questions.
> 
> how much is vehicles' discipline?
> 
> Anyone knows rules and cost of grand master's options?
> 
> I wonder how orbital strike will be ^^
> 
> 
> P.S. many thanks to katie and the other "rumormongers"


Afaik all vehicles come with the Psyhic power in their points cost, for instance the Stormraven costs 205 points instead of the 200 in the BA codex. So I guess you can add 5pt to each vehicle. Pretty good to become pretty much immune to Shaken and Stunned. All vehicles have LD 10 for the purpose of psychic tests.

Grand Master
6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+
Terminator armour, SB, Nemesis Force Sword, frag, krak, psyk-out grenades and iron halo (4+ inv afaik).

Special Rules: IC, ATSKNF, PE Daemons, Psyker lvl 1,
The Aegis : Enemy psykers gets -1LD when trying to cast spells on units with this rule.

Grand Strategy:
Roll D3 and give that amount of special rules to different squads (everything but vehicles).
Hammer of Righteousness: Reroll to wound for rest of game
Shield of Blades: Counter Attack
Spear of Light: Scout Rule
Unyielding Anvil: Unit count as troops.

I'm not sure but I think you have to give the same rule to all the units, so you cant make one count as troops and another receive scout rule. They all have to get the same thing. Not sure about this but this is what has been said elsewhere.

Psychic Powers : Hammerhand +1S and Psychic Communion -1 or +1 to reserve rolls. So dont want that unit but rolled a 4 on round to, now it's 3 and it goes back in reserves. Desperately need something but rolled a 3? Now it's a 4 and it comes in.
So basically you need to roll 1-2 on second and 1 on third round to be unable to get something in from reserves. After that you can bring in everything no matter the roll.

All that has been said about Orbital Strike is that it costs 50pts, I do believe it will be the exact same thing as in the SM codex though. Unless they keep the 3 different ones from C:WH/DH and lets you chose one.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I am so excited, I WANT THIS CODEX NOW!!!!


----------



## boreas

Yup! I can see Draigo being very useful vs nids... 6 attacks (charging) vs a unit of 5 Warriors, 4 hitting (5 after- MC re-roll), quite probably 4 dead (12 wounds!). He then goes about insta-killing Trygons, Tervigons and other nuisances... Oh, or he goes after 20 guants with Cleansing Flame, kills 10, then kills another 3, wins combat by 10, so kills another 8. If he killed two with his stormbolter, he's wiped out the unit.

I'll have to try and play him against a whole nid army 

Phil


----------



## Synack

Draido can't insta kill warriors, they're not psykers, so he's hitting them at S5, not S10. So best he'll kill 1 by himself. Maybe 2 if he gets his force weapon off after rolling 3d6.

Fun fact (on how fucked up the Nid FAQ is). You could take a librarian and charge a unit into a bunch of lash-whip and bonesword warriors and be dropped to I1 because of the lash whips. The Nid codex says this happens BEFORE any initiative modifiers. So after you get dropped to I1, you could get off the librarian power which boosts the squad to I10 and negate the lash whips all together.

Fun eh?

I love and hate my nids


----------



## Vaz

BS6, eh. Give me Combi-Incinemelta now.

Also, Armywide 4++? Can you say VAZ SAID DAT SHIT FIRST?


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> Katie, can you confirm the invun save that paladins get? I'm seeing in some places people are reporting they have a 4++ generic, but from what I've read, this is wrong and they just have normal termie armour for a 5++.
> 
> Also, I see that Draigo is Fearless, which seems pointless if some of the other choices aren't fearless, as he'll just end up running away with what ever squad he has joined on to. Are Paladin's fearless too?


1) It's 5+. Paladins don't have Iron Halos or anything like that. Naturally they have the force swords so it'll be better in close combat assuming one decides not to swap them out for something else.

2) He is indeed Fearless and it is basically pointless since Paladins aren't Fearless themselves. This is yet more proof that Games Workshop has little to no understanding of how their own rules work. If anyone has ever doubted this... well, there you go.



Doelago said:


> Wait, what, but from some of the comments I have randomly popped in and read, I got the feeling that I wont be able to arm my Termies with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields? Is that true? :cray:


No Grey Knight Hammernators. Frankly I think it's refreshing that the Grey Knights have their own somewhat unique method of fighting. They have their advantages over normal Space Marines (many of them) but there also come some tradeoffs too. This is just good Codex design.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vaz said:


> BS6, eh. Give me Combi-Incinemelta now.
> 
> Also, Armywide 4++? Can you say VAZ SAID DAT SHIT FIRST?


Come to think of it, what happens if you have BS6+ and have a template weapon? Do you get to reroll wounds like you do with twin linked or does nothing happen? I dont think I have ever encountered a situation like that before.
Since GMs can take Incinerators does this mean he has reroll to wounds with it?


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Come to think of it, what happens if you have BS6+ and have a template weapon? Do you get to reroll wounds like you do with twin linked or does nothing happen? I dont think I have ever encountered a situation like that before.
> Since GMs can take Incinerators does this mean he has reroll to wounds with it?


Nothing happens, his Ballistic Skill doesn't matter in this case. BS6 doesn't make a model's weapon twin-linked. The Incinerator is really cheap on a Grand Master for this exact reason.


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> 1) It's 5+. Paladins don't have Iron Halos or anything like that. Naturally they have the force swords so it'll be better in close combat assuming one decides not to swap them out for something else.


This makes me terribly disappointed. Paladins already seemed like a hard buy compared to the Power-Armour trio and the Ghosts.


----------



## Azezel

Katie Drake said:


> 2) He is indeed Fearless and it is basically pointless since Paladins aren't Fearless themselves. This is yet more proof that Games Workshop has little to no understanding of how their own rules work. If anyone has ever doubted this... well, there you go.



Or that the codex is designed with 6e in mind. It seems just about the right time that some decisions have been made about sixth, and are influencing current codices.

Didn't the DE dex have a MC with Move Through Cover, which in 5e is pointless since all MCs have it - but might make more sence in 6e.

It could happen.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> This makes me terribly disappointed. Paladins already seemed like a hard buy compared to the Power-Armour trio and the Ghosts.


Yeah, I'm not sure on their actual utility in lists that are trying to be good. They're really expensive and hellishly vulnerable to S8 AP2 ranged weapons. They can take more special weapons than other Terminators (two in five rather than one in five if I remember right) but they're so much more expensive per model that it probably isn't worth it, especially when you take into consideration that Grey Knight Strike Squads are your best shooters point-for-point.

EDIT:



> Or that the codex is designed with 6e in mind. It seems just about the right time that some decisions have been made about sixth, and are influencing current codices.
> 
> Didn't the DE dex have a MC with Move Through Cover, which in 5e is pointless since all MCs have it - but might make more sence in 6e.
> 
> It could happen.


It's possible, sure. I think GW just prefers to print redundant rules in some cases so that people remember that they apply. The Talos is one example.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure on their actual utility in lists that are trying to be good. They're really expensive and hellishly vulnerable to S8 AP2 ranged weapons. They can take more special weapons than other Terminators (two in five rather than one in five if I remember right) but they're so much more expensive per model that it probably isn't worth it, especially when you take into consideration that Grey Knight Strike Squads are your best shooters point-for-point.


Well, but if they look awesome and have a good background story i see no reason why I shouldn't play them^^


----------



## Katie Drake

Akhara'Keth said:


> Well, but if they look awesome and have a good background story i see no reason why I shouldn't play them^^





Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure on their actual utility in lists that are *trying to be good*.


Needs ten characters.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I don't care so much about how effective a unit or a model is. If I like it, I play it. And from what I heard about the Paladins yet sounds cool, so they'll definitely have a place in my lists


----------



## Katie Drake

Akhara'Keth said:


> I don't care so much about how effective a unit or a model is. If I like it, I play it. And from what I heard about the Paladins yet sounds cool, so they'll definitely have a place in my lists


Yes, there's nothing wrong with taking the units that you like/want to use.


----------



## Stormbrow II

> GM with 2++ would be about the only model I'd bother putting it on or the Librarian.


A Libby that can throw out (pretty nifty) powers and pretty much ignore Runes of Warding with his 2++ (rerolled) to Perils attacks? Sweet.

It might be best leaving it off the GM as you want him to, you know, kill stuff up close and S4 PW aren't the best way to help him do it.


----------



## boreas

Synack said:


> Draido can't insta kill warriors, they're not psykers, so he's hitting them at S5, not S10. So best he'll kill 1 by himself. Maybe 2 if he gets his force weapon off after rolling 3d6.


Darn, I'd forgotten that Synapse=/=psyker anymore 

Here goes my one-man army dreams :sarcastichand:

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I´m wondering if MCs will get Eternal Warrior or something like that in 6ed, with every codex we get there seems to be abilities that just outright kill MCs. Psychic powers and wargear that outright removes them from play and fairly easily. There must be some change coming making it more balanced?
Personally I would like to see the 2D6 for armor pen vs walkers removed, vs vehicles I can understand it but a walker should be a moving target and harder to get a good hard hit on.
As it is now a walker stands pretty much no chance vs a MC with a Strength of 6+ which almost all have.

I both dread and look forwards to 6ed, I dread it because of GWs history with the Sisters of Battle. 2E Sisters of Battle codex came out 3 or so months before 3ed which made it completely useless, 3E C:WH came out shortly before 4ed dealing a similar fate to it. So now we might see the return of Codex : Sisters of Battle and then 6ed probably just months later. Following GWs traditions this could mean the codex is far from balanced and not on par with the first 6ed dexes.

On a curious note lets calculate the Vindicares new max Vehicle Pen roll.
Here are the current rules for it :
A. Because sniper rifles are rending, when rolling
for armour penetration, the Vindicare gets to add
a D3 to the total for each dice that comes up a
six. So, if one of the three dice is a six, the total
penetration would be 6+2D6+D3+3 (giving a
result between 12 and 22); if two were sixes, the
total would be 12+1D6+2D3+3 (18 to 26); if all
three dice were sixes, the total would be
18+3D3+3 (24 to 30!). Almost certainly
enough…

So 24 to 30.

Sniper rifles are S3
4D6 gives a max of 24
4 Rendings give a max of 12 more
So the new max possible for Vehicle Pen would be 39...
You should get +2 to the damage roll if your armour pen was twice the targets armour value :crazy:


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> Yes, there's nothing wrong with taking the units that you like/want to use.


Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.
The people I play with though are all fairly competitive, so as-is the Paladins scream "put half your army's points in us and see how we go _pop!_ when S8 weapons get past the meager 5++!"

For a more general question, can a unit with an IC use two (or more) powers per turn? For example: a Librarian attached to a Strike Squad. Which is right...
- The Librarian casts his two powers, followed by the Strike Squad casting their one power?
- The player must declare who will use their powers: either the Librarian or the Strike Squad?


----------



## OpTi

Aparently the GW managers went to headoffice a little while back and they saw the GK sprues. They weren't supposed to see them granted, the design studio had been blocked off but somehow they got to .

Anyway apparently they have a shedload of options such as all the nemesis weapons, psycannons, incinerators and various other gubbins and like most of the newer kits are fantastic detail.


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2E Sisters of Battle codex came out 3 or so months before 3ed which made it completely useless, 3E C:WH came out shortly before 4ed dealing a similar fate to it. So now we might see the return of Codex : Sisters of Battle and then 6ed probably just months later.


If I were a betting man, I'd stake that this will be the case. Not because I think GW has a grudge against the sisters (never atribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence), but becauuse 6e seems likely to come in two years or so, and Sisters seem likely to come between 18 and 24 months from now.


Whilst he refused to comment on the matter (and I don't blame him whether it's true or not) Bindi said that Sisters would be the last of the old dexes to be updated, and that after that, codex publications would take a new direction (not an exact quote) - what better time for a new codex direction than a new game edition?

F'rex, see Fantasy 8th and their new hardcover army books.

It almost makes _too much_ sense*...


*This is an in-joke a few frineds and I use to dismiss/mock conspiracy theories.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.
> The people I play with though are all fairly competitive, so as-is the Paladins scream "put half your army's points in us and see how we go _pop!_ when S8 weapons get past the meager 5++!"


Yeah, the Paladins probably won't be so hot in competitive environments, I agree.



> For a more general question, can a unit with an IC use two (or more) powers per turn? For example: a Librarian attached to a Strike Squad. Which is right...
> - The Librarian casts his two powers, followed by the Strike Squad casting their one power?
> - The player must declare who will use their powers: either the Librarian or the Strike Squad?


The former, though not necessarily in that order. A character that has joined a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers isn't counted when working out the unit's psychic powers, so the unit uses its own Leadership and so on.


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> The former, though not necessarily in that order. A character that has joined a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers isn't counted when working out the unit's psychic powers, so the unit uses its own Leadership and so on.


That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure. Castellan Crowe joined to a unit of Purifiers seem like they'll vaporize a lot of things.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

The term "daemons" just refers to models coming from codex:chaos daemons or other kinds of daemons(eldar avatar, chaos marines demon prince,etc) are included too?


----------



## Synack

pretty much anything from the daemons codex, but also vs the CSM daemon prince, the spawns, etc.


----------



## GrizBe

Deamons do count the Avatar as well... at least it always used to. Think it'd count for things like the Nightbringer as well as the normal chaos demons and the demon prince etc.


----------



## callred

hmm mepheston too ? :wink:


----------



## Platton725

Katie, first off, thanks for all the rumors & pictures.

I haven't seen any solid confirmation regarding Stormbolters-as-pistols, can you confirm this?


----------



## callred

think it means like the old 'true-grit' rule worked - i.e. extra attack in cc


----------



## Synack

callred said:


> think it means like the old 'true-grit' rule worked - i.e. extra attack in cc


If storm bolters act as pistols, then its better than true grit. True git never allowed the bonus for charging. If storm bolters act as pistols, then we get the extra attack as well as a charge bonus.

I suppose we'll see.


----------



## callred

apologies yes i meant more that they were an extra attack as per 2 cc weapons than the original GK true grit rule - my bad for any confusion


----------



## Frank Fugger

Mephiston and the C'tan aren't Daemons. YOU are the Daemons.



MadCowCrazy said:


> I´m wondering if MCs will get Eternal Warrior or something like that in 6ed, with every codex we get there seems to be abilities that just outright kill MCs. Psychic powers and wargear that outright removes them from play and fairly easily. There must be some change coming making it more balanced?


The current situation with insta-kill stuff is, I think, absolutely fine. Giving everything Eternal Warrior, that would be bad.

I've been having this exact argument with Eldar players worried about their Avatar since time immemorial. They seem to think that he should be utterly immune to instant death in any and all forms; I point out he is already T6 (so no ID from double Strength wounds), has a reasonable set of saving throws, that Force Weapons tend to be S3 or 4 and thus require 6s to wound him (and tend to have WS3-5 whereas he's WS10, and strikes at I6 compared to the Force Weapon's I4, etc etc etc), that their army should have Runes or some other form of psychic protection anyway, and that even if he was an Eternal Warrior things like JotWW or Gift of Chaos (which remove models from play without causing any wounds) would still one-shot him, because they don't use the Instant Death mechanic at all.

The same argument could be made against giving any Monstrous Creature in 40k the EW special rule, and I'm sure when the GK book is released the Optimus Knight will be no exception.




> 3E C:WH came out shortly before 4ed dealing a similar fate to it.


And then 5th Edition came out, which made the Sisters awesome again. Swings and roundabouts :-o


----------



## Akhara'Keth

He is a Psyker, so yes. S10 against Mephiston.


----------



## Synack

Okay, I just managed to get my hands on the play testing dex (it's definately a play testing or draft dex, there are space holder pictures and scribble notes all over it). Pity about the no wargear section, but it's something to play with in the mean time.

Anyway, looks like Draigo and Purifiers are both fearless, but thats the only guys I can see that are fearless.

I'm surprised no one has really been mentioning Thawn. He's a termie upgrade char and can be resurrected on a 4+, which is pretty damn cool.


----------



## callred

hmm why no fearless for everyone ? that doesnt make any sense fluff wise :shok:

and thats one of the things I love atm the whole sticking around no matter how many you lose to shooting etc !


----------



## Brovius

callred said:


> hmm why no fearless for everyone ? that doesnt make any sense fluff wise :shok:


Grey Knights are fearless, not stupid. The 'fearless' USR represents the unit fighting against impossible odds and dying hopelessly in battles they cannot win. Grey Knights wouldnot be above retreating if they are at a disadvantage.

They should get ATSKNF and stubborn, IMO. It would make more sense fluff-wise.

EDIT: Typo


----------



## callred

true or maybe some form of marnus calgar's God of War rule where you can opt to do stuff

guess i was just getting hung up on the word 'fearless' !


----------



## Synack

Okay, with 7 psyker henchmen, you can get access to a S10 AP1 large blast phsycic power. Pity they ld 8 tho


----------



## Frank Fugger

Brovius said:


> Grey Knights are fearless, not stupid. The 'fearless' USR represents the unit fighting aainst impossible odds and dying hopelessly in battles they cannot win. Grey Knights wouldnot be above retreating if they are at a disadvantage.
> 
> They should get ATSKNF and stubborn, IMO. It would make more sense fluff-wise.


This, although I'd give them Ld10 all round too, even on basic troopers.


----------



## Irbian

I have one question for Katie Drake if she dont mind. As long as you can say/know, there is a lot of changes between the playtest copy and the final one?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Links removed because GW might not like it.
You are not allowed to post the link to the playtest codex.

I will give a warning to the next person who posts a link to it.
I'm really sorry but we can't have things like these on the forum.


----------



## GrizBe

Not gonna post a link to it, but I have to say it does look like a legit playtest codex.... That said, from what we've been told rumourwise, you could have peiced together most of the information in it yourself.... Some of the fluff seemed a little vague, so I guess it was an early playtest one.


----------



## Aramoro

Had a flick through the Playtest codex, some meaty things in there, the Dreadknights seem a little off 2+/4++, really?


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

MadCowCrazy said:


> Links removed because GW might not like it.


D'OOOOH!

where it was? I didn't see that link  :cray:

However no-one can play with a playtest codex,it has the same value of home-rules....if you have a playtest(so incomplete) codex you have to buy the ultimate version of it anyway.


----------



## Lesiu

For me this "playtest" codex looks like a bag of ideas. There are literally dozens of special rules and options and nearly every unit can have all of them. 
I guess we will see all those units in final version, but some options going to dissappear or will be more restricted. 

Example:
Champion - battle stances plus rerolls to wound plus psychic power removing from game plus grey knight rules and on top of that SM chaplain effect (rerolls on charge)
Henchmen entry - 10 different models each with different special rules and warrior acolyte with like 16 items to pick, giving nearly infinite ways of equiping them. I predict that 2-4 types of henchmen won't make it to the final list and acolytes will end up with half of those options.


----------



## Frank Fugger

I'm liking the playtest Codex so far. No wargear section sucks, but hey.

EDIT: Hammer Of The Witches shuts this army down so hard.


----------



## soulreaver296

But... i WANT a 12 plasma gun squad... for every troop choice... for less than a GH per...

edit: for a substantial amount less than abaddon, they would take him out in one volley at close range. I think we have a winner


----------



## Frank Fugger

How cool are the Jokaero Weaponsmiths? Seriously. I might have to dig my Coteaz model out of the bitz box, lol.


----------



## GrizBe

I'm still dubious as to how legit it is... but it does correlate with alot of the rumours we've been getting from those people who'd know whats it and whats not...

But damn some of the stuff is nasty tough in it.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Whereas some of it is downright stupid. If it stays this way I can't honestly see the Optimus Knights getting much play in a pure GK army; Heavy Support was not a good idea, unless a Nemesis Doomfist has a shooting attack I don't know about.

In a mixed list, though? I'd be willing to give them a whirl.

Anyone know what the Nemesis Force Halberds do, by any chance?


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Frank Fugger said:


> Anyone know what the Nemesis Force Halberds do, by any chance?


+1 I
replaces invulnerable saves bonus


----------



## GrizBe

Have to remember though, the NDK has got more weapon options then just the doomfists by most accounts, which makes me think this is an old playtesting codex.

Its meant to have options for a Nemesis Forcesword, a heavy incinerator and a gattling psycannon I think...


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Have to remember though, the NDK has got more weapon options then just the doomfists by most accounts, which makes me think this is an old playtesting codex.
> 
> Its meant to have options for a Nemesis Forcesword, a heavy incinerator and a gattling psycannon I think...


Maybe you should scroll all the way down and look at the unit breakdown? All the weapon options are right there for the Dreadknight


----------



## boreas

They way I read that document, GKSS w/ teleporters are still troops (no FA)! Also, now, Draigo, Mordrak, Stern, GKGMs, GKBCs, Brotherhood Champion all have 3++ saves with a NFS!

Now, as for the remaining questions: psyk-out grenades, blind grenades, psychotroke grenades and rad grenade? Empyrian brain mines? Orbital strike relay (at 50pts, it's has to be better than the SM orbital strike...)? Psybolt? Psyflame? Psylencer? Finally: truesilver armour on vehicles?

Damn I love what I'm reading. GKs are going to finally rock!

Phil


----------



## Shmeguy

ahh, 4 warrior acolytes with melta guns, mounted in chimera with two heavy flamers *_*
113 points, i wouldn't mind running a couple of those XD


----------



## GrizBe

Vhalyar said:


> Maybe you should scroll all the way down and look at the unit breakdown? All the weapon options are right there for the Dreadknight


I was responding to Frank's post about it... and if you do look at the main page entry for the NDK, it only lists the Doomfists as its wargear option. and the only option I didn't mention, was the deamonhammer.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Brother Siegfrid said:


> +1 I
> replaces invulnerable saves bonus


What invulnerable save bonus? And are all the Nemesis weapons power weapons?


----------



## Frank Fugger

GrizBe said:


> Have to remember though, the NDK has got more weapon options then just the doomfists by most accounts, which makes me think this is an old playtesting codex.
> 
> Its meant to have options for a Nemesis Forcesword, a heavy incinerator and a gattling psycannon I think...


It has those things in the Army List entry in the Codex. How many of those things are anti-tank weapons?

And before anyone mentions 2D6 S7 in CC, CC ain't reliable anti-tank.

Looking at it again... with the restrictions on Henchman units and the fact Inquisitors are now HQ-only I think the DK is going to struggle to really find a place in any list, unless someone knows something about the GK weaponry that I don't. Aside from Henchmen your only real fire support units outside of Heavy slots seem to be Stormravens and Ven Dreads, which is bad news for Mister Punchy.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Frank Fugger said:


> What invulnerable save bonus? And are all the Nemesis weapons power weapons?


All PW

+1 to every existing Invulnerable only in cc

So pagk do not get 6++ in cc

Psyk-out grenades are still a mistery.... We only know they reduce enemy morale.


----------



## fynn

bugger, did i miss a snecky link for a playtest book, bugger it.
be gratefull if some kind heretic can pm a link, if its still working


----------



## Frank Fugger

Brother Siegfrid said:


> All PW


So the metal GKs I currently own are running around at 25pts per head with an I5 power weapon and a Stormbolter?

Great success! Still might cut the Halberds off and swap them for swords, haven't decided yet; unless the Invulnerable save is something cruddy like 5++ or 6++, in which case I'll leave them alone.



> Psyk-out grenades are still a mistery.... We only know they reduce enemy morale.


What about the Rad Grenades the Inquisitor models get? WTH are those?


----------



## GrizBe

Real shame theres no wargear section... i'd quite like to know what truesilver armour does for vehicles etc...

But I'm hoping theres most of this in the final codex, some of the stuffs really nasty... The Brotherhood Champions final attack for instance.... If he's removed as a casulaty in close combat, he makes one final attack against any model he wants in base to base contact. If it hits, both models are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed.

Now that is an evil character killer right there.


----------



## Frank Fugger

GrizBe said:


> Real shame theres no wargear section... i'd quite like to know what truesilver armour does for vehicles etc...
> 
> But I'm hoping theres most of this in the final codex, some of the stuffs really nasty... The Brotherhood Champions final attack for instance.... If he's removed as a casulaty in close combat, he makes one final attack against any model he wants in base to base contact. If it hits, both models are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed.
> 
> Now that is an evil character killer right there.


... which brings us back to "Mat Ward can't make characters worth a damn". This dude is a single-wound T4 HQ character with a 2+/4++ save. He costs 100 points and does, quite literally, nothing. Literally. Oooh he can take out a single model if he dies. So can Lukas the Trickster, and you don't have to mess around with stupid Stances to get him to work.

EDIT: In fairness, if they dropped the Champion to Elites and made him cost 40-60 points I might consider running him. Otherwise he will get forced out by Grandmasters, Coteaz, Crowe and Inquisitors every time.

Personally I think they need to do something about the fire support before the final draft. Change 'Hammerhand' to a psychic power that gives all Psycannons the ability to fire Melta shots or something. And that stupid I1 Librarian has to go. EDIT: THe I1 Librarian is a misprint, lol.


----------



## boreas

I really agree on the champion... If my opponent hasn't such a great unkillable model, I get stuck with a guy that dances a lot but kills few.

As for the Libby, though, it's very pale but it's definitely Ini 4 on my pdf...

On the Anti-Tank thing, I'm ok with a lot of St7 and 1-2 MC in my army. A dreadknight that can charge at 18" w/teleporter will attack 4 times at St7+2d6. That's good enough against everything except all-around AV14 (LRs...). And if the greatsword and/or Daemonhammer add to his St on top of Hammerhand, you could get a St8 or 9 MC.

Phil


----------



## fynn

cheers to the fellow heretics who helped me out, now for a read while haveing some grub....lol


----------



## Logyn

About that link that crept up while I was sleeping...

Got it, Thanks GrizBe

Side-note: I'm foreseeing a lot of Purifier Spam and henchman Spam...


----------



## RAAM13

Cam i get a PM to said codex?


----------



## GrizBe

60th request of the day for it filled... lol.


----------



## Mathai

Heh heh, I think I may be the only person who does NOT want to see the psuedo codex. x.x As interesting as it will undoubtedly be, I think I prefer sticking to these rumors and getting more enjoyment out of the afficial copy I get on day one of the greaty Grey Knight surge. =)

On a side note: Wouldnt it be awesome if, as their April Fool's joke, GW states the release date as something late april but on April first, all of us who pre ordered our armies go to the mailbox and 'bam!' there it is!?


----------



## GrizBe

lol. If only.


----------



## Irbian

wait, where is the psycannon for my ordo malleus inquisitor? >-< hope is changed in the released version


----------



## OpTi

Irbian said:


> wait, where is the psycannon for my ordo malleus inquisitor? >-< hope is changed in the released version


um... psycannon is listed for malleus inquisitor


----------



## Coyote77

I would like to be pmed this link as well, if possible.


----------



## Irbian

OpTi said:


> um... psycannon is listed for malleus inquisitor


Only if he have terminator armour >_< What Im going to do with my bad conversion of PA inquisitor with psycannon? :shok:

By the way, the gk thread on warseer just went puf. "Grey Knight Rumor Summary (3?)-removed-IP infringement" :rtfm: Maybe its time to make copy from everything while you can


----------



## GrizBe

Probably because they didn't delete the pictures that Katie posted a while back, or the links for the codex before GW spotted them... That or its just Warseer mods being overzealous tools as usual.


----------



## StalkerZero

Thankfully I made a copy of that warseer thread just in case.

I'd love to see the playtest codex but I think I may stay away from GK. Finally found an army my brother-in-law will replace his Tau that he hates so much with.


----------



## Katie Drake

Irbian said:


> Only if he have terminator armour >_< What Im going to do with my bad conversion of PA inquisitor with psycannon? :shok:


Count him as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with a conversion beamer, of course.


----------



## Irbian

Katie Drake said:


> Count him as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with a conversion beamer, of course.


:shok: Lady, that is a 999 999 $ idea!


----------



## TheReverend

Mathai said:


> On a side note: Wouldnt it be awesome if, as their April Fool's joke, GW states the release date as something late april but on April first, all of us who pre ordered our armies go to the mailbox and 'bam!' there it is!?


Knowing GW, it's likely to be the other way round...


----------



## MichaelCarmine

Hey!
My english is not that good, so please be patient!
I found this a week ago in the net, don't even know where.
Maybe it's old... (tried the search-funktion :grin: )

EDIT: Ok, old pic. Deleted.

MC


----------



## Frank Fugger




----------



## Hurricane

That is indeed a fake Carmine.

Concerning the dreadknight and it's loadout, my enthusiasm has definitely been tempered after seeing they only come with the doomfists standard and the ranged weapons all cost quite a lot. It's definitely going to be a hard decision between the purgation squad and the DK now.


----------



## Synack

Its an old fake, seen it a couple times before


----------



## Frank Fugger

I found a few more pictures you might like to see. Here we see an Inquisitor leading his Henchmen in the destruction of a Chaos Icon:










And here is a shot of the Dreadknight with what I believe is a Heavy Psycannon:










Here we see a fully painted 1500pt pure Grey Knights army:


----------



## MichaelCarmine

Hah! Funny...


----------



## Champion Alaric

Lolz. I hope hasbro doesnt hit you with a IP infringement..


----------



## elektra

Has anyone seen this?
Possible concept art for new Sisters?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Looks sexy!


----------



## Irbian

By the way, I think that the truesilver sking for the vehicles is something about not being assaulted by daemons or something

"rendering the hull poisonous to Daemons"


----------



## MichaelCarmine

More than sexy, it looks EPIC SEXY!


----------



## godzy

so, now coteaz is the new DS killer? fun rule, but the short range makes it kind of useless, and hardly any way to extend the range- only with a chimera, since you need LOS.

an they really neft the eversor- a lightning claw? GW, are you guys for real?


----------



## Irbian

What coteaz do well is the henchmen troops. Your coteaz or your count as coteaz.


----------



## Azezel

elektra said:


> Has anyone seen this?
> Possible concept art for new Sisters?


I can't rule it out - but that image has been around for yonks. I _think_ it's from Deviant Art, but I can't say for sure.


----------



## jmach

Hey long time lurker of this thread finally decided to make an account on here to post. Only played grey knights since I started a year ago and I'm really looking forward to this new codex based on the rumors. 

Question, can anyone shed some light on what the psilencer does or what the brotherhood banner might do?


----------



## Hurricane

Just curious but would it against forum rules to start posting lists in the army lists forum using the information that's currently rumored to be in the codex?


----------



## rasolyo

Azezel said:


> I can't rule it out - but that image has been around for yonks. I _think_ it's from Deviant Art, but I can't say for sure.


Indeed, it _is_ from DeviantArt, by hoxiaowei.

Not quite grimdark enough, but I like the crisp style.

Here is another picture:


----------



## Vhalyar

It's pretty easy to find with Google, maybe you people who only just registered should stop shitting up the thread with requests.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> It's pretty easy to find with Google, maybe you people who only just registered should stop shitting up the thread with requests.


No kidding. Could a mod delete all these request posts, it's sorta killed discussion in here.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> No kidding. Could a mod delete all these request posts, it's sorta killed discussion in here.


Yeah, I don't particularly enjoy getting 4 email notifications for the same thread in the space of about 10 minutes.
It's odd that it does that, sometimes just sends multiple emails.

But yeah, sweet that a bunch of people have a test codex, and boy am I liking the sound of Purifiers as Troops!
Supposedly Fearless (which is sort of a bad thing actually), and with 2 attacks base and Ld9 I think


----------



## raven925

So yea, back on topic. I thought Grey Knight termies were still Elites but could be made troops by a SC? Is this a mistake or are they troops now?(I know its just a test play codex but im still curious)

Also, i can only really see myself taking a few paladins, too expensive for a full squad.


----------



## Winterous

raven925 said:


> So yea, back on topic. I thought Grey Knight termies were still Elites but could be made troops by a SC? Is this a mistake or are they troops now?(I know its just a test play codex but im still curious)


From what we know, Terminators are Troops in the new GK codex, Paladins are the Elite version.


----------



## Logyn

Purifiers in general are going to be well-used, considering the buff statline and access to more and cheaper weapons for only a few points a model extra. 4 incinerators in a squad of 10, with that redonculous anti-horde combat power? Yes please. 

Plus Crowe is pretty sweet by himself, though it looks like anything that charges him gets preferred enemy and furious charge (!!!) the turn it does.

I hope to make an all-terminator army when this dex actually drops, but I get the feeling that between the purifiers and the Inquisitorial Warbands, I'm missing the real meat and potatoes of this codex.

I wonder what the profile on the heavy psicannon is. for 40 points, things better die.

PS. I'm sort of depressed with how shooty this codex looks. I wanna punch stuff!


----------



## Jezlad

The next person that asks for an illegal link is getting kicked out for 2 weeks.

Have some respect for the site and it's staff and understand that we cannot and will not share illegal downloads.


----------



## Vhalyar

Logyn said:


> Purifiers in general are going to be well-used, considering the buff statline and access to more and cheaper weapons for only a few points a model extra. 4 incinerators in a squad of 10, with that redonculous anti-horde combat power? Yes please.


Seems to me like the power armour units are the most interesting (outside of henchmen).

Purifiers are pretty wonderful and might be the only unit where Crowe can fit in, with double Cleansing Flame to mitigate his daemon sword.

Strike Squads get Warp Quake and the teleporters are fairly cheap. Very little points to create a 48" "you deepstrike you die" bubble is nice, plus they get cheap psycannons.

Purgation Squads, for 180 points you get five models with four psycannons with Astral Aim. Hopefully we'll get stats on the weapons soon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have deleted numerous requests for the so called leaked playtest list, I dont know if it is legit or not but that does not matter. You are not allowed to post direct links to it or ask for copies of it.
I said it before and this is the final warning, you may not post or request material that could be in direct violation to our forum guidelines.

If you have any questions or are unhappy with this please pm me and I will explain it to you, do not ask for explanations in this thread as that is both off topic and annoying for other members.


----------



## elektra

Didn't realise the artwork was already known but would be great if the Sisters models come close to this.


----------



## fynn

lmao, i was just over on warseer, reading there "new" GK thread, after there old one was removed, and part way though reading it, the new threads been deleted.......lol


----------



## elektra

Quick off topic.Anyone going to the doubles tournament in Nottingham this coming friday,i will be there with my Sisters and would be nice to meet any of you.


----------



## Frank Fugger

elektra said:


> Didn't realise the artwork was already known but would be great if the Sisters models come close to this.


I think the Sisters models they have now are alright. A bit of tidying up here and there, and probably a facial resculpt (not so they look like supermodels, just so they stop looking like bulldogs sucking the piss off a thistle) and you're golden.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

+1 S for nemesis daemonhammer is confirmed? Or it's like a TH?


----------



## Katie Drake

Brother Siegfrid said:


> +1 S for nemesis daemonhammer is confirmed? Or it's like a TH?


Yeah, +1S.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Great. Thank u katie


----------



## Azezel

elektra said:


> Didn't realise the artwork was already known but would be great if the Sisters models come close to this.


I think we'd all be happier if the plastic models do not have high heels like that image shows.


----------



## godzy

off topic, but I just realised it- the SOB shuld have a heroine riding a unicorn!


and back to the topic- do you think the Justicare-christ upgraded character is worth it? his rules: when killed place a marker. every next turn, on a 4+ roll he comes back at that point, single model unit. does not grant kill point if he is alive at the end of the game, for any of the times he died. regular load out- replaced sword with halberd, with level two mastery, +1 to WS, fearless


----------



## Bindi Baji

Azezel said:


> I think we'd all be happier if the plastic models do not have high heels like that image shows.


It's not that simple though as they do count as an extra attack,
and what would happen to the psychic power "high heels and handbags" that is used by the Sisters of Essex?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bindi Baji said:


> It's not that simple though as they do count as an extra attack,
> and what would happen to the psychic power "high heels and handbags" that is used by the Sisters of Essex?


Pfft, they will still have their Vibro Batons and Rouge FacialMesh cloaks giving them Preferred Enemy vs all Male and Female models, then again the Vibro Batons give +1LD to all Blood Angel models...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I was planning on reading through the thread before posting, until I realised it was 375 pages long... :shok:

Was just wondering whether you've given the juicy details on the origins of the Grey Knights; the 'Traitorous Fusion' involving their geneseed yet _MadCowCrazy_?


----------



## Irbian

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I was planning on reading through the thread before posting, until I realised it was 375 pages long... :shok:
> 
> Was just wondering whether you've given the juicy details on the origins of the Grey Knights; the 'Traitorous Fusion' involving their geneseed yet _MadCowCrazy_?



It was something from ciaphas cain in bolter&chainsword. But he is now banished in the warp so... we dont know yet.


Im intrigued too and also in the differences between the playtest copy and the final one.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Rouge FacialMesh cloaks


FFS!, all these years I thought people were simply mispelling rogue trader, 
only now do I find out they were in fact talking about Rouge Trader - 40K Fashion and make up


----------



## godzy

the rummer has it that the GK were founded with the remaining few of loyal individuals (eight also mentioned) from the traitor legions. if they could resist the temptation, it is a proof of the strength of will within them.


----------



## Irbian

Its not a bad possibility

offtopic: http://www.vidaextra.com/accion/dia...o-y-primeras-imagenes-del-cazador-de-demonios

Ok, is spanish, but it has inside the picture of the diablo 3 daemon hunter, if you want to pick ideas


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I was planning on reading through the thread before posting, until I realised it was 375 pages long... :shok:
> 
> Was just wondering whether you've given the juicy details on the origins of the Grey Knights; the 'Traitorous Fusion' involving their geneseed yet _MadCowCrazy_?


I could but I wont, it will all be in the "new" fluff in Codex Grey Knights.
It's less than a month away for allot of people who can get early copies so I'm sure it will out there somewhere in less than 2 weeks.


----------



## elektra

What's wrong with high heels,it would make the model pleasing to the eye and that is what we want from our models.After all this is a fantasy game(i.e.make believe) and hardly likely to reflect the modern take on wargear.I personally do not care either way but as the likes of Stickmonkey has stated that a more feminine approach to the armour will be taken by GW,then why not give them a slim fit power armour to accentuate the cueves of the female form and yes high heels if needs be.This is set in the possible far future and i suspect that technology will adavance to a high level to produce this kind of thing.
Let's face it a sexy female army well painted is what most guys would want to field anyway so the more eye catching the features of the armour are the more sales GW will make.
Well that's my opinion anyway.


----------



## Frank Fugger

elektra said:


> What's wrong with high heels,it would make the model pleasing to the eye


In an extremely sad and pathetic way, yeah. I can't see female soldiers going into combat tottering about in a pair of Jimmy Choos, especially not if those soldiers are meant to be super-nuns from the oh-so-grimdark-and-very-religious future.


----------



## Baron Spikey

elektra said:


> What's wrong with high heels,it would make the model pleasing to the eye and that is what we want from our models.


I'm kind of hoping GW decide not to take a sexist route when redesigning the Sisters of Battle- that's just me though, maybe some people want their misogynistic fantasies brought to the table top.

Horses for courses and all that.


----------



## elektra

Take a look at the 16th,17th and 18th century army footwear and tell me why their armies fought in shit conditions wearing so called high heels and thuoght nothing of it.The picture i posted would probably be to roughly the same scale as these historical shoes.I didn't mean stilletos or such like.
Regarding the Grimdark religious future,who's to say that fashion will not change for better or worse.Go back in time to the Vestal virgins and then look at them through the eyes of the Victorians and you will see the same blinkered approach that is seen on various forums regarding Sisters armour and clothing.


----------



## Azezel

elektra said:


> What's wrong with high heels,it would make the model pleasing to the eye and that is what we want from our models.After all this is a fantasy game(i.e.make believe) and hardly likely to reflect the modern take on wargear.I personally do not care either way but as the likes of Stickmonkey has stated that a more feminine approach to the armour will be taken by GW,then why not give them a slim fit power armour to accentuate the cueves of the female form and yes high heels if needs be.This is set in the possible far future and i suspect that technology will adavance to a high level to produce this kind of thing.
> Let's face it a sexy female army well painted is what most guys would want to field anyway so the more eye catching the features of the armour are the more sales GW will make.
> Well that's my opinion anyway.


I disagree with almost everything you just said, including the bit where you insulted my entire gender (and your screenname notwithstanding, I think it's probably your gender too).

Please to be explaining how 'technology' can advance to the point where walking across a battlefield covered in craters and Ripper swarms is as easy in high heels as it is in flats.


----------



## Frank Fugger

High heels aren't actually that difficult to walk in.

Don't ask me how I know.

The thing that bothers me about the "Make Sisters Sexy" campaign isn't anything to do with sexism or chauvinism or whatever; it's more the fact that fluff-wise it sucks balls (nuns wearing high heels, orly?). Not to mention the whole 'Sexy Nuns' thing speaks to an exceptionally puerile mindset within the gaming community, one that I think the majority of gamers don't really conform to.

You can resculpt the Sisters to make them visually appealing without having to stick Madonna cones on their breasts and Jimmy Choos on their feet.


----------



## alex567

i think they should stick with the current shoe range for sisters of battle, of the sisters want to where high heels in their own time its up to them but in battle its genualy better to have armour on you feet then high heels, 
_"damn those sisters of battle are dying and having their legs blown of alot, but they sure do look good in their high heels"_ to me its like a typical generation of today teenage girl they dont care how a bullet would affect them aslong as they look nice when it goes of (sorry if any of this is offencive to people of the female orentation or femanistic mindset)


----------



## Katie Drake

Seriously people, chill out. As a female I personally don't find the idea of Battle Sisters wearing high heel armored boots the least bit offensive. Unrealistic? Absolutely. Offensive? Not a bit. It's _fantasy_. Please stop dragging gender equality into something as unimportant as this. It just looks silly.


----------



## boreas

I think this is pretty much besides the point: on a 28mm miniture, the high-heels wouldn't show 90+% of the time anyways because of basing. Also, it would make the minis a nightmare to stick to the base. 

That being said, as a man, I don't think it's insulting to say I'd love my sisters to look sexy. I love the corset shape of the current armour, and I hope they keep it this way. In a very baroque world like 40k, I wouldn't want sisters to get practical armor...

Phil


----------



## Frank Fugger

boreas said:


> That being said, as a man, I don't think it's insulting to say I'd love my sisters to look sexy.


Nobody's saying it's offensive. It would just be really sad and pathetic is all.

EDIT: Not to mention fluffily nightmarish and, let's face it, wholly unneccesary. If the next Sisters book is as good as the current one people will buy into the army wether or not the models are 'sexy'.



Katie Drake said:


> Unrealistic? Absolutely. [...] It's _fantasy_.


B-)


----------



## alex567

Katie Drake said:


> Seriously people, chill out. As a female I personally don't find the idea of Battle Sisters wearing high heel armored boots the least bit offensive. Unrealistic? Absolutely. Offensive? Not a bit. It's _fantasy_. Please stop dragging gender equality into something as unimportant as this. It just looks silly.


I only put what i did because i dont want to offend any one and because some people are more sensetive about this then others, i dont want people to feel sad just so i can get my point across, so if i offended you by saying i meant not to offend you, i apologise :biggrin:


----------



## Azezel

And I wasn't actually defending women - I was defending _men_ from the acusation that we need sexy girls before we become interested in a cool army.


----------



## Bindi Baji

right erm, 
back on topic 

er, 
whats the general consensus on the (slight) change on GK colour scheme then?
(i'm really trying here)


----------



## KingDeath

Bindi Baji said:


> right erm,
> back on topic
> 
> er,
> whats the general consensus on the (slight) change on GK colour scheme then?
> (i'm really trying here)


It is probably the only thing which i do not dislike about the new codex


----------



## Akhara'Keth

One question: Nemesis warding stave: What's the effect? Someone told me it would give the model a 2+ invu save.....


----------



## Azezel

I beleive it is a power weapon which grants 2++, one per squad.


----------



## boreas

Bindi Baji said:


> right erm,
> back on topic
> 
> er,
> whats the general consensus on the (slight) change on GK colour scheme then?
> (i'm really trying here)


I love it. I'm re-doing my GKs in a dark, non-metallic, scheme based on codex grey. I'll include dirt and chipping. I'm currently painting my GKLR redeemer and I'm using historical modeling techniques like chipping, filters, and pigments to represent dirt and even... gasp... rusting!

From the "new" fluff, I see my GKs less as Galahad riding up in a shining armor. They are more down-to-earth "we'll do whatever it take to purge you" marines. Now, they're not "purer" that other Astartes anymore. They are tougher toward chaos. Not the defenders, but the bouncers of the Imperium taking chaos by the throat shoving it the frak out.

Phil


----------



## elektra

Azezel said:


> I disagree with almost everything you just said, including the bit where you insulted my entire gender (and your screenname notwithstanding, I think it's probably your gender too).
> 
> Please to be explaining how 'technology' can advance to the point where walking across a battlefield covered in craters and Ripper swarms is as easy in high heels as it is in flats.


I was not talking about the technology of footwear but of progressive slimline armour as is proposed for the new sisters models.I am fully aware that meandering across a battlefield in heels would be nigh on impossible but i did say that this is a fantasy game set in the far future which means that anything the imagination can dream up could be possible.I think my point about painted sexy female armies was misleading as i meant a really good looking painted army,which could be anything from Sisters to Orks can look attractive to the eyel,so i apologise for the word sexy.My persoanal views are mine alone and are not an attack on anyones' gender but more a comment on how i see things possibly progressing.
I am sorry to have kicked off a shitstorm but really,you need to respect others opinions and chill out a bit


----------



## Zero Effect

Bindi Baji said:


> whats the general consensus on the (slight) change on GK colour scheme then?
> (i'm really trying here)


Well I think I am going to base my colour scheme as mentioned in the first Garro audio CD. Armour looks like ghost colours with a slight blue, green glow.

I think something along the line of, dull downed metal in a grey format with a blue or green wash hint. Going to play test this theory on some marines I have hid away. :victory:

Hopefully GW site and emails will be released in the 2 or 3 weeks and then the real thing on the first weekend in April. :dunno:


----------



## elektra

Frank Fugger said:


> High heels aren't actually that difficult to walk in.
> 
> Don't ask me how I know.
> 
> The thing that bothers me about the "Make Sisters Sexy" campaign isn't anything to do with sexism or chauvinism or whatever; it's more the fact that fluff-wise it sucks balls (nuns wearing high heels, orly?). Not to mention the whole 'Sexy Nuns' thing speaks to an exceptionally puerile mindset within the gaming community, one that I think the majority of gamers don't really conform to.
> 
> You can resculpt the Sisters to make them visually appealing without having to stick Madonna cones on their breasts and Jimmy Choos on their feet.


I agree with what you are saying.As i have started this off i will apologise for the word sexy.Maybe aesthetically pleasing fits the bill.I do not think Madonna outfits are the way to go but the armour in the picture i posted is in my opinion a very pleasing image of a possible battlesister model and i wouldn't complain if they looked something like it.
Regarding fluff.Not everyone plays their armies according to what someone has written in a codex or other publication.There are plenty of people who game for the pleasure of it and not hardcore purists who will not budge from what they see as the be all and end all according to 'fluff'.My viewpoint is let everyone play as they want and not to tell people what they should or should not be using for their armies or ideas behind them.In fact aren't we encouraged to form our own background stories for our armies and who is to say that a Sisters convent may well stray from the emperors path rthey and
choose to do what they feel is right,after all we are all governed by our imaginations and can all come up with something cool.


----------



## elektra

Katie Drake said:


> Seriously people, chill out. As a female I personally don't find the idea of Battle Sisters wearing high heel armored boots the least bit offensive. Unrealistic? Absolutely. Offensive? Not a bit. It's _fantasy_. Please stop dragging gender equality into something as unimportant as this. It just looks silly.


Well played.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I have actually ordered some chrome paint, I've seen videos of this stuff on youtube and it seems awesome. You can get pretty much a mirror finish and the concept seems pretty awesome to me 

Here is a video of the stuff I've ordered. It has cost me 20£ to order 2 pots of the stuff so I hope it's worth it


----------



## Winterous

KingDeath said:


> It is probably the only thing which i do not dislike about the new codex


If you dislike the rules, then you're goddamn insane.


Elektra: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE SEXY ARMOUR CRAP, NO ONE CARES AND IT'S OFF-TOPIC!


----------



## elektra

Winterous said:


> If you dislike the rules, then you're goddamn insane.
> 
> 
> Elektra: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE SEXY ARMOUR CRAP, NO ONE CARES AND IT'S OFF-TOPIC!


Typical boring attitude to someone elses opinion.Do you not understand polite conversation?And you obviously care enough to comment!!
How can it be off topic discussing rumours of possible armour that the new Sisters may get?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

please take flaming in pms or emails


----------



## Irbian

@Winterous, I think that your comment is innecesary rude dude, chill out.

on topic: Im yet not convinced in the whole "we dont need scouts" issue. I miss scouts, in the fluff and in the rules. They need to get experience some way. Yeah, I understand that they cant expose to chaos until fully trained but they could kill orks or something

I miss also the jetbikes  THat idea was awesome  And even if we have normal bikes we could count as but now... anything like that.

Edit: Ok, this is getting very stupid (on Warseer). They have closed not only the original thread with the leaked info, but two new threads. So, you cant discuss the rumours if they are very specific neither if they are very vague (Stickmonkey). This romans are crazy!


----------



## Bindi Baji

Irbian said:


> I miss also the jetbikes


I don't believe they were seriously going to appear in the codex for anything other then potentially a single character, as I understand only 1 model was ever made and that was done on a whimsy.

I think they are only likely to turn up with custodes on them and that's nothing more then a long term possibility at this point in time (so in the same category as deathwatch and ad mech)


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Madcow:

Will the chrome work thinned out a bit?

or is it just a matter of keeping the black gloss thin, as there is only one coat of chrome? 

I'd be a bit worried about obscuring detail.



On another topic: Modern american combat boots are still heeled, its just a concealed heel. only about an inch and a half high though, the front sole is about a half inch thick leaving about an inch of heel.


----------



## Irbian

@Bindi Baji: Ok, I was just being jealous of the dark angels wing chief


----------



## Azezel

Irbian said:


> @Winterous, I think that your comment is innecesary rude dude, chill out.
> 
> on topic: Im yet not convinced in the whole "we dont need scouts" issue. I miss scouts, in the fluff and in the rules. They need to get experience some way. Yeah, I understand that they cant expose to chaos until fully trained but they could kill orks or something


If it makes you feel better, I don't see why you couldn't use henchman to represent GK scouts. In fact, given the flexability of the henchman rules, you could probably use them to represent the Orks too.


Which brings me on to Crusaders. What's this I'm hearing about Crusaders being Ecclesiarchal soldiers?

That seems a little odd. for one thing: there are rules about Ecclesiarchal soldiers not being blokes (and you may bet the Crusader models will continue to be blokes). For another: the hell!?

The Ecclesiarchy alread has an army, I know it does, they even had a codex once. Why would it need another army, and why would the Inquisition borrow that one too?


Can anyone shed a little light?


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> If it makes you feel better, I don't see why you couldn't use henchman to represent GK scouts. In fact, given the flexability of the henchman rules, you could probably use them to represent the Orks too.


Yeah, I know. But you know, it wont be _official._ But it will be fine



> Which brings me on to Crusaders. What's this I'm hearing about Crusaders being Ecclesiarchal soldiers?


Inquisitors can _recruit_ from the honor guard of a ecclesiarchy order. Others crusaders are inducted from the schola impergium

Here you go, they can be recruited by the inquisitor, is not like we are talking about a ecclesiarchal armyy


----------



## boreas

Finally got home to take some WIP picts:





































I still have the flamestorm cannons to do and all the mud and dirt. 

Phil


----------



## Kettu

@Azezel;

The Crusaders, Other then being mentioned in Dark Heresy as being specifically an Inquisition only warrior and body-guard group, stylistically fit a Sisters of Battle army. If by chance female minis are produced then I wouldn't mind then being added to the Sisters army. Sisters are lent to the Inquisition from time to time so why not have Sisters led through the Crusader School? (Better yet, make the Crusader School another Schola Progenium initiative)

A Crusader is also mentioned in the Snuff-audio-ficlet Fireborn as being the bodyguard to the Canoness. (There was far to much wrong with this story in general to really regard it as being canon to any degree though)

Crusaders don't gather in numbers or have a force that would really work as an army in any real sense of the word though, and so they are only ever really given to bodyguard or security duty.

...

379 pages... Man I've missed a lot.


----------



## Coyote77

Dunno if this is made it here, but someone is debunking the 'leaked' codex.
http://www.thehogsofwar.com/2011/02/you-know-theyre-grey-knights-leak-fake.html


----------



## Vhalyar

Coyote77 said:


> Dunno if this is made it here, but someone is debunking the 'leaked' codex.
> http://www.thehogsofwar.com/2011/02/you-know-theyre-grey-knights-leak-fake.html


Looks like someone didn't get the memo about staves being 1 per squad.
And that's his only "proof" on top of that.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I would say he is an idiot. If it would be a fake, Katie would have told it us, I am pretty sure.


----------



## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Looks like someone didn't get the memo about staves being 1 per squad.
> And that's his only "proof" on top of that.


That guy's a fucking retard.

His argument is completely awful. So since it's obviously an early copy of the document it can't be trusted at all. Yeah, okay bud. I'd post a comment telling him how dumb he is but I can't be bothered to set up an account.

*sighs*


----------



## Baron Spikey

The leaked codex doesn't actually say staves are only one per squad ...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

One question to the Henchmen:

"For each Inquisitor in you army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination."

Since Inquisitors are HQ, does it mean that i can have only 2 units of henchmen in the army?


----------



## Baron Spikey

Akhara'Keth said:


> One question to the Henchmen:
> 
> "For each Inquisitor in you army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination."
> 
> Since Inquisitors are HQ, does it mean that i can have only 2 units of henchmen in the army?


Unless you choose Coteaz who makes Henchmen units Troops and not limited by the presence of Inqusitors.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Okay, thanks! I am afraid we'll see many Henchmen Spam lists =(


----------



## Coyote77

Katie Drake said:


> That guy's a fucking retard.
> 
> His argument is completely awful. So since it's obviously an early copy of the document it can't be trusted at all. Yeah, okay bud. I'd post a comment telling him how dumb he is but I can't be bothered to set up an account.
> 
> *sighs*


He seems a bit of a tool, but I figured I'd give a heads up.


----------



## Vhalyar

Baron Spikey said:


> The leaked codex doesn't actually say staves are only one per squad ...


It's also not the final product and one person who's been ahead of the others with the rumours is saying that since then it's been changed to one per squad.
Incidentally, one per squad makes great sense. That's the anti Perils of the Warp solution so your Justicar/selected psyker doesn't get auto-gibbed. I just hope that Paladins are fixed in a different manner in the end product.


----------



## Baron Spikey

So you lot are ripping into a guy who has only got the leaked codex to go by and because of that he doesn't know what you lot 'know'...you guys are dicks.


----------



## Mathai

While I know there are certain rumors that I would love to see put in place. (Looking directly at Optimus Knight for that one. I LOVE that thing!) Part of me kinda hopes that this has all been an 'Operation Blue Harvest' sort of thing, that was all meant to purposefully mislead the public so that the true codex will be a complete surprise. This plan comes complete with people like Katie Drake being a corporate orchestrated plant to feed us all rumors and make sure we are all looking left as the true product slips by to the right.  It'll be like the Moon Landing all over again!! =) (Heh heh, its late and my mind goes goofy at this time, but tis still a good bit of food for thought.)


----------



## Vhalyar

Baron Spikey said:


> So you lot are ripping into a guy who has only got the leaked codex to go by and because of that he doesn't know what you lot 'know'...you guys are dicks.


No, I'm saying that one person is basically ignoring all the build up so far and acting like an hysterical idiot based on one point alone that got clarified shortly before the document even got leaked to the masses. And what I "know" came from Blood of Kittens; you're right, it's a terribly secret site that no one remotely interested in the Grey Knights has heard of :shok:


----------



## Winterous

Vhalyar said:


> an hysterical


A hysterical*
Which one of an/a is correct is based upon the sound that starts the following word; if it begins with a vowel sound then you use an, if not then a.
An historic / hysterical / hysterectomy / what have you is only grammatically correct if you mispronounce the word, by leaving the 'H' out of the first syllable.

Say it to yourself.
A history.
An 'istory.

That is the correct way to use the two.


@Mathai

A similar thing was done for the Deathly Hallows (last Harry Potter), there were a few 'fake' books released on the internet so no one knew which was the real thing.
My brother read one of them, and said it was damn good even though it was fake.


----------



## Katie Drake

Baron Spikey said:


> So you lot are ripping into a guy who has only got the leaked codex to go by and because of that he doesn't know what you lot 'know'...you guys are dicks.


Yeah, no. It's because he's being hysterical and acting like he's found something extraordinary while making retarded claims. If he bothered to read anything other than the leak he'd realize that the stuff he's saying is hardly revolutionary and... wrong.


----------



## Headrush

So, first off, with all sincerity, I apologize if I'm off topic and this belongs somewhere else OR off base here. 

My question is: Does GW allow any non GW members, from key sites such as this, playtest new codices? Thats my question and a simple yes or no will probably suffice. And then u dont need to read the rest of my ramble 

As for the ramble: 
After reading here or on some other sites (Warseer, Dakka, Librariuim, BOk) I felt that GW seems to keep some really sharp non GW employee players on the sidelines in terms of playtesting or just knowledge until the last minute. In the age of social media and beta testing (on albeit video games which I acknowledge have a different timetable to launch)....why??

I have learned MUCH from just reading through this site. I loved my GK, lost alot but learned alot and won over time (lost more than I won cause i love my termies heavy squads!). 

But are folks like mad cow or katie drake involved in the testing of some of these codices. They obviously are extremely knowledgeable of the game, just like some guilds are for video games (before everyone gets involved in beta testing..which im not advocating here). So if not... why?

I would respect these rumors and even the final product more if it was tested with true gamers that are non-GW and those gamers would have a chance to say..."be patient it will be fixed" or "its not that bad". I will also be excited to hear "...this is broken and they listened"...or "...i play tested and i just cant say". I can live with ambiguity from those that are playing it in real life not in a setting for white dwarf.

But i feel like GW appears to not be friendly to its core at a time when times have changed. I've learned ALOT from reading the posts on this site...is GW leveraging the immense knowledge here from some of the senior members? If the answer is a simple yes...then i'm happy and i can keep it moving. 

But when I hear that in a world where TH/SS 3++ has become a strat of marines and then I hear what the GK squads have for 55 point pala termies (One 2+ save per squad so Str 8 AP2 can still maul them even with screwed up wound allocation rules) or apparently broken for inquisitor and henchmen (albeit in our favor..but i care a little less about henchmen in a GREY KNIGHT codex), or some of the more senior members with more skill than I, question the significance of a squad (see: pala termies), I admit, it leads me to the conclusion that a great community can/should be more involved in the play testing ( I wont even start on the fluff, because that truly is a matter of opinion...but a grand master carving the heart of a primarch when the HH books makes primarchs seem like gods....uh...what??).

It almost turns me off from buying more that I would which I KNOW they dont want me to do. 

Im not a power gamer but I want to have fun and sometimes win  I love my GK - my first and main armies from years ago, so much that I've even commissioned painters to paint my some of my armies to look like or better than the codex. I enjoy the hobby that much. I also feel that part of this hobby is better served when I know that the community is really involved in helping make it better...Because clearly this community (and this site) does know what its talking about. So maybe Im not in the know or maybe Im not supposed to know...which is cool too. But I hope communities like this are more involved than i believe because I think it will help the business, the community and even foster new players in the future.


----------



## Kettu

Old news, I know.

But I thought I'd share...

*
Image of the infamous GreyKnightimusPrime Removed.*


GW legal have already told us to take this image down, yup I know it's all over the web anyhoo but thats the way it is.*Vash*


----------



## Katie Drake

Headrush said:


> So, first off, with all sincerity, I apologize if I'm off topic and this belongs somewhere else OR off base here.
> 
> My question is: Does GW allow any non GW members, from key sites such as this, playtest new codices? Thats my question and a simple yes or no will probably suffice. And then u dont need to read the rest of my ramble


Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: GW _does_ use playtesters that get to play with Codecies before they're done. They don't actually work for Games Workshop and don't get paid - they're basically volunteers. How it works is that at several points during the design process the playtesters are contacted by Games Workshop, given a link to a super secret website where a .PDF of the Codex in its current incarnation can be downloaded.

Early on, before the rules themselves are actually worked on, GW sends messages to their testers asking for input on unit concepts. So for example, Games Workshop would've asked their testers what they thought of the idea of a Grey Knight piloting a huge Penitent-Engine like machine that's meant to go toe-to-toe with Greater Daemons and has access to incredibly powerful weapons and so on. If they get positive feedback on their ideas, then these concept units will have the first draft of rules written up for them and then sent out. The testers do their thing and report back to Games Workshop. GW makes the necessary adjustments, adds a few extra things and sends them out again. They do this for a while and then they close up shop and make the final adjustments, then send the 'Dex off for a final review and printing.

I found this out by speaking to one of the playtesters. In fact, without him, I wouldn't have been able to post up the photos I did earlier this week.


----------



## Vhalyar

Winterous said:


> A hysterical*


That's what happens when I type a sentence, then go back and start editing it around without re-reading the whole thing. Oops.


----------



## Katie Drake

Kettu said:


> Old news, I know.
> 
> But I thought I'd share...


Dude, take down that picture ASAP. I know I'm not a moderator, but Heresy had to take down that same image earlier this week because of GW's legal team. By having it up there's a chance that the site will be put at risk. :shok:


----------



## Headrush

got it. thnx for the response katie.


----------



## schenck

For anyone who has read the wording on the grand strategy rule, it is a bit open with regard to mordrak. It says it cannot be used on a unit that has IC or mordraks unit of ghost knights but can it be used on mordrak himself? He is not an IC in the current incarnation and he is obviously not his unit of ghost knights because it does state that they are a seperate unit so any thoughts.


----------



## Kettu

> *
> Image of the infamous GreyKnightimusPrime Removed.*
> 
> 
> GW legal have already told us to take this image down, yup I know it's all over the web anyhoo but thats the way it is.*Vash*


Aww...

That sucks.

So is GW gonna go after 4 Chan and Photobucket next also?:laugh:


----------



## Stormbrow II

> Early on, before the rules themselves are actually worked on, GW sends messages to their testers asking for input on unit concepts.


Wait: input? What - they're actually listening to ye?

My group playtested the Eldar, Chaos and Ork codices for 4th ed and took very few of our suggestions on board. The Orks would have ended up worse than they are now (although the 9 BW build was lols) but for the most part they ignored our suggestions. Not just the major ones but the minor ones: three that stuck in the craw were the Daemon decision (make them all generic so I can't field Slaaneshi ones), the Possessed (random =/= fun) as well as the Daemon Prince not having a 2+ save.

Things seem to have improved since Gav Thorpe has gone. He can write fluff but couldn't do rules. Its nice to see they're taking outside advice on board again.


----------



## Katie Drake

Stormbrow II said:


> Wait: input? What - they're actually listening to ye?
> 
> My group playtested the Eldar, Chaos and Ork codices for 4th ed and took very few of our suggestions on board. The Orks would have ended up worse than they are now (although the 9 BW build was lols) but for the most part they ignored our suggestions. Not just the major ones but the minor ones: three that stuck in the craw were the Daemon decision (make them all generic so I can't field Slaaneshi ones), the Possessed (random =/= fun) as well as the Daemon Prince not having a 2+ save.


You failed in your duty to the community with this. 

But seriously, if you're indeed asking (can't tell) I'm not a playtester, though I'd absolutely love to be. I just know/knew one.


----------



## boreas

Katie Drake said:


> You failed in your duty to the community with this.
> 
> But seriously, if you're indeed asking (can't tell) I'm not a playtester, though I'd absolutely love to be. I just *know/knew *one.


Oh my GOD, it's Schrodinger's playtester! :laugh:

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Madcow:
> 
> Will the chrome work thinned out a bit?
> 
> or is it just a matter of keeping the black gloss thin, as there is only one coat of chrome?
> 
> I'd be a bit worried about obscuring detail.


I have no idea, never worked with chrome paint before. I'm not too worried about obscuring details as I wont be spraying this stuff on details. I will be putting it on large flat areas of vehicles. Dont think you can put this stuff on the infantry, maybe the shoulderguards and leg plates. Basically I'm getting this stuff to put on vehicles, not infantry (though I will try).



Baron Spikey said:


> The leaked codex doesn't actually say staves are only one per squad ...


No one knows how old that playtest dex is, or even if it's real. You can draw any outrageous conclusions from reading it. It can be used as a general guideline to what the GK dex might be like but it should not be used as an official document or treated like one. Would you agree to play someone in a tourney who shows up with the leaked dex?
Basically the person bitching about it is drawing unfair conclusions from thin air based on what's in the dex and what he has read online. It doesn't say in the dex that ward staves give a 2++ save yet he has obviously read a rumours thread where that has been said. So he has obviously been reading rumours threads and gotten a hold of the playtest dex yet he has failed/didn't bother to comprehend anything else. All he has read is 2++ and playtest dex, then he draws his conclusions from that.
I could state that all GK stormbolters are Assault 20 with 36" range, he could see it and go on a rampage about how op the GKs stormbolters are and how fake the leaked dex is because of what I just said.
Basically he comes to his own conclusions that lack any well thought out arguments because he has not done his research.
You can make a claim based on insufficient data but your claim will lack that much credibility because of it. All in all I'd regard what he is saying as nonsense simply because he has not bothered to do the research. He's like a noob who screams OP!! on the WOW forums because he can't 1shot people with his rogue.




Headrush said:


> So, first off, with all sincerity, I apologize if I'm off topic and this belongs somewhere else OR off base here.
> 
> My question is: Does GW allow any non GW members, from key sites such as this, playtest new codices? Thats my question and a simple yes or no will probably suffice. And then u dont need to read the rest of my ramble
> From what I know GW does most of it's play testing in house with a few exceptions. They do have outsiders playtest for them but from what I've read they dont take any outside input into consideration.
> 
> As for the ramble:
> After reading here or on some other sites (Warseer, Dakka, Librariuim, BOk) I felt that GW seems to keep some really sharp non GW employee players on the sidelines in terms of playtesting or just knowledge until the last minute. In the age of social media and beta testing (on albeit video games which I acknowledge have a different timetable to launch)....why??
> GW will never do this until they go over to PDF codicies, this is why their codicies always end up with a few units that are utterly shit or unusable for some reason. You can take almost any codex and spell check it and then go over the units. You will find many grammatical errors and miss spellings, on top of this there will be units that are far from ideal and simply ignored because they aren't competitive. All in all it seems GW has pretty much no people on quality assurance.
> 
> I have learned MUCH from just reading through this site. I loved my GK, lost alot but learned alot and won over time (lost more than I won cause i love my termies heavy squads!).
> 
> But are folks like mad cow or katie drake involved in the testing of some of these codices. They obviously are extremely knowledgeable of the game, just like some guilds are for video games (before everyone gets involved in beta testing..which im not advocating here). So if not... why?
> I wish, GW would certainly benefit immensely from having someone like me on the team since I always try to break a codex when it first comes out. I'm also very critical and ask too many questions.
> But alas, I'm not on any play testing team nor do I know anyone who is, I just scour the net for information wherever I may find it.
> GWs Codicies will remain sub par in term of quality until they day they go over to free betas like allot of other miniature companies are doing.
> I think all codicies should be available as free PDFs containing just the rules so you can try out a new army if you so want. They should also have a yearly update in say December where they make changes based on gameplay over that year. You should be able to buy a codex as a print on demand service so you can get the latest rules printed into it, a printed dex would be need to play in any store or events.
> All you have to do is wait for the first FAQ for a new codex to see how little quality control goes into it before it is released. Most problems are spotted within days of a new codex release yet GW seems ignorant to why there are problems to begin with.
> GW needs to make some large sweeping changes to how they do things, as it is now they are on a road to failure.
> It has been said that Codex Sisters of Battle will be the last large codex project and that they will go over to smaller projects after this, I'm hoping this means going over to PDF with free online beta rules for anyone to playtest.
> 
> I would respect these rumors and even the final product more if it was tested with true gamers that are non-GW and those gamers would have a chance to say..."be patient it will be fixed" or "its not that bad". I will also be excited to hear "...this is broken and they listened"...or "...i play tested and i just cant say". I can live with ambiguity from those that are playing it in real life not in a setting for white dwarf.
> I agree but GW wont change any time soon, in a day and age where people expect a problem to be patched within days of the problem being discovered GW has you waiting for the next codex update that will happen 5-10 years down the road. This is a retarded stance (imo) to take and I'm sure it will lead to allot of people leaving the hobby because of lack of support. When will the DE get their next codex update? 2020? Is that a reasonable time to have to wait? GW never has and never will be able to create balanced codicies, this is why 70-90% of people play the same 3 armies in tournaments.
> 
> But i feel like GW appears to not be friendly to its core at a time when times have changed. I've learned ALOT from reading the posts on this site...is GW leveraging the immense knowledge here from some of the senior members? If the answer is a simple yes...then i'm happy and i can keep it moving.
> GW hardly knows what the internet is, it seems the only people at GW who use the internet are the IP lawyers searching for infringements where ever they can. GW has become a faceless corporation that is more interested in making the stockholders happy than the gamers as a whole.
> 
> But when I hear that in a world where TH/SS 3++ has become a strat of marines and then I hear what the GK squads have for 55 point pala termies (One 2+ save per squad so Str 8 AP2 can still maul them even with screwed up wound allocation rules) or apparently broken for inquisitor and henchmen (albeit in our favor..but i care a little less about henchmen in a GREY KNIGHT codex), or some of the more senior members with more skill than I, question the significance of a squad (see: pala termies), I admit, it leads me to the conclusion that a great community can/should be more involved in the play testing ( I wont even start on the fluff, because that truly is a matter of opinion...but a grand master carving the heart of a primarch when the HH books makes primarchs seem like gods....uh...what??).
> You can't take anything from the playtest dex seriously, it doesn't even have a wargear section so would you be willing to bet your life that everything in it is accurate and will be in the final version of the GK codex? I've said it before and I'll say it again, it should be used as a general guideline to where the codex is going, not as a set in stone tablet of power that wont change for the next 10 years.
> 
> It almost turns me off from buying more that I would which I KNOW they dont want me to do.
> 
> Im not a power gamer but I want to have fun and sometimes win  I love my GK - my first and main armies from years ago, so much that I've even commissioned painters to paint my some of my armies to look like or better than the codex. I enjoy the hobby that much. I also feel that part of this hobby is better served when I know that the community is really involved in helping make it better...Because clearly this community (and this site) does know what its talking about. So maybe Im not in the know or maybe Im not supposed to know...which is cool too. But I hope communities like this are more involved than i believe because I think it will help the business, the community and even foster new players in the future.
> GW wont change until more of their staff leaves, I dont know who is in charge of their policy as it is but once that person leaves the company we might finally see some change to the way GW runs their business and they might become a more friendly company who actually listens to the concerns of their fanbase. As it is now the only interest GW has in it's community is making sure we dont IP infringe on their property.





Kettu said:


> Aww...
> 
> That sucks.
> 
> So is GW gonna go after 4 Chan and Photobucket next also?:laugh:


If they felt they had a chance I'm sure they would, it's easier to mess with their fanbased forums than it is to mess with a larger corporation owned online service.

My point of view is very biased, I'm used to playing computer games where the developers listen to their consumers and make changes when needed to make the game more enjoyable as a whole.
I'm sorry to say this but I'm looking forwards to the day GW crashes and burns so that they might actually have to start considering changing their policies regarding codex development. I think as a whole the game would be allot more enjoyable if the community could actually help make the game become better. I bet each and every one of you would actually gladly pay a small sum to be allowed to play test for GW, the community wants to help and will do it for free but GW are just too retarded to realise this.
If it's not from being retarded then the only plausible explanation left would be that they are too selfish/proud to let anyone help them make a better product.

These are my own personal opinions and do not represent the views of this forum or it's other moderators in any way.


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> My point of view is very biased, I'm used to playing computer games where the developers listen to their consumers and make changes when needed to make the game more enjoyable as a whole.


sadly way back in the day (the days of rogue trader & bolt thrower) GW were far closer to this, 
sadly the bigger they have gotten the further away from this they have gone


----------



## Winterous

schenck said:


> For anyone who has read the wording on the grand strategy rule, it is a bit open with regard to mordrak. It says it cannot be used on a unit that has IC or mordraks unit of ghost knights but can it be used on mordrak himself? He is not an IC in the current incarnation and he is obviously not his unit of ghost knights because it does state that they are a seperate unit so any thoughts.


Wait until the codex is released before you start nit-picking the rules, *please!* :laugh:


----------



## godzy

I notices- the GK PA units are going to be quite good for MSU abuse- the justicar and the psychic power are cheap if you get just the five per squad, and the cheap/free special weapons, you will be able to mass some troops on the field. 2*5 purifiers moving together, charging at the same unit will get two cleansing flames, for the same price as one ten man squad. 
just thinking. this also could (and probobly is) just full of BS,just lets us get the book already GW!


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

I was thinking about warding staves... And if they confer 2++ sv only in close combat? that would explain many things....


----------



## Hurricane

I remember hearing about this rumor a little earlier somewhere but is it true that strike squads with personal teleporters become fast attack choices?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Okay, what's Nemesis Doomfist? DCCW?


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Akhara'Keth said:


> Okay, what's Nemesis Doomfist? DCCW?


I suppose they are close combat dreddy weapons with nemesis rule(i.e. Force weapon). So DK would get initiative 1.

Storm bolters count as pistols (close combat purpose) for pagk only or for tagk too?


----------



## soulreaver296

DCCWs do not have the I1 rule, so the DK is safe in that respect


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

soulreaver296 said:


> DCCWs do not have the I1 rule, so the DK is safe in that respect


So I don't understand why should I pay x points when I exchange it for a nemesis hammer which gives only +1S,when DCCW gives S10.


----------



## gally912

I'm beginning to think the whole leaked codex thing is an elaborate hoax.


----------



## soulreaver296

Hey, it could be. It is a pretty good, both in layout and content, and it's not entirely unbelievable. What would be funny is if all the GK players crying that they want to use this one (if it is a hoax), while the REAL one is just terrible.

edit: phrasing, and my money is what everyone else is saying: It's an early playtest/beta codex, and we can expect changes. Not HUGE ones, but changes nonetheless (stormshields? pretty please?)


----------



## Vhalyar

Brother Siegfrid said:


> Storm bolters count as pistols (close combat purpose) for pagk only or for tagk too?


No one knows.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Vhalyar said:


> No, I'm saying that one person is basically ignoring all the build up so far and acting like an hysterical idiot based on one point alone that got clarified shortly before the document even got leaked to the masses. And what I "know" came from Blood of Kittens; you're right, it's a terribly secret site that no one remotely interested in the Grey Knights has heard of :shok:


1) no one pointed the guy in the direction of these rumours, you just told him how stupid he was without explaining why he was wrong.
2) Blood of Kittens is a dodgy source at best.



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, no. It's because he's being hysterical and acting like he's found something extraordinary while making retarded claims. If he bothered to read anything other than the leak he'd realize that the stuff he's saying is hardly revolutionary and... wrong.


He was wrong, fair enough. Did anyone try to correct him with a link to the same sources they used? No.

So my opinion that the people who commented are dicks stands.


----------



## hungryugolino

Any sources on Inquisition stormtroopers? Plastics, even?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Brother Siegfrid said:


> So I don't understand why should I pay x points when I exchange it for a nemesis hammer which gives only +1S,when DCCW gives S10.


Well, the Dread Knight is a Monstrous Creature and not a Walker sooooo......


----------



## Dagmire

They are not in at teh moment


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, the Dread Knight is a Monstrous Creature and not a Walker sooooo......



So I was right, it goes initiative 1  
Right? XD


----------



## Vhalyar

Baron Spikey said:


> 1) no one pointed the guy in the direction of these rumours, you just told him how stupid he was without explaining why he was wrong.


I have a feeling that people would have been more helpful if the guy had not overreacted in such a silly manner. Hm let's see, this thing is missing tons of details, there's notes scribbled here and there, some things got copy/pasted right out of another codex and left unedited. Yes, that's obviously the final product and thus it can;t possibly be real, I'll proceed to scream about it.

As for Blood of Kittens, Tasty's information was quite accurate, even from his very first post; it's actually interesting to re-read it. Some of the specifics changed overtime but the concepts are spot on. It's pretty damn clear that he did have access to information. So you tell me how it's dodgy.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> So you tell me how it's dodgy.


how about you don't as this thread is currently going round in circles and MCC has enough on his hands with those marbles he lost


----------



## wildeyedjester

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, no. It's because he's being hysterical and acting like he's found something extraordinary while making retarded claims. If he bothered to read anything other than the leak he'd realize that the stuff he's saying is hardly revolutionary and... wrong.


What claim did I make except that the leak is at least partially wrong or incorrect?

The leak actually says any pally or grey knight can take a stave... Which is incorrect, right? Hence the leak has at least some errors in it which is all I'm stating! It shouldn't be taken as gospel as we all know things are different from this early leak.

I fully believe you all are right and actually am supporting that. I'm sure the one stave per unit is probably correct. I'm not sure why I'm getting raked through the mud for agreeing with you though.


----------



## Vhalyar

Edited for not being worth pursuing on the forum


----------



## Bindi Baji

Vhalyar said:


> Except in the case of BoK it's genuinely interesting to go back and read his old claims and see how very close they hit to this playtest document.


That is often the way, 
someone sent me a link to a load of arguments between harry and someone else at 'seer about a year ago and somehow both were right


----------



## Judas Masias

Hey check out this crazy shit that a friend of mine posted up on our game store's web site.

View attachment 11310
:laugh:
Inquisitor Coteaz can take Henchmen as troops.

One of the Henchmen is Monkeys with Laser Fingers.

Laser Fingers can fire either as Lascannon, Multi-Melta, or Heavy Flamer.

Say hello to Laser-fingered space monkey obliterator armies.


----------



## Irbian

*Irbian take two giant gauntlets and take the thread in his hands*

- Ok, lets take this ontopic again, could we?

Next newsletter: O&G or GK? New units in the final codex version? Deleted units? go!

Edit: @Judas Masias: Ook! ook! ok! oook!


----------



## Lesiu

Brother Siegfrid said:


> MadCowCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the Dread Knight is a Monstrous Creature and not a Walker sooooo......
> 
> 
> 
> So I was right, it goes initiative 1
> Right? XD
Click to expand...

As far as I know, DCCW is a walker only item (rulebook, page 73, DCCW being described in walkers section). So either wargear section got descrioption of nemesis doomfist for both dreadnought and dreadknight or it's just a CCW with fancy name for dreadknight.

It's quite interesting, as i can't think of any non-walker unit that ever had a DCCW...


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I'll end up getting a grey knights force, I'm a sisters player, but depending on the henchmen and limitations on henchmen armies, I might just do a count as Jokero force or something...monkeys monkeys everywhere. ook ook.


----------



## Winterous

Purge the Heretic said:


> I might just do a count as Jokero force or something...monkeys monkeys everywhere. ook ook.











The Librarian disapproves of the word 'monkey'.


----------



## soulreaver296

WINterous, you just made my night


----------



## ibm6789

I had a dream Friday night about the new Witch Hunter's Models:

They will get a new unit type that basically look like hookers in tight, short, leather dresses. The Sisters Repentia will get no changes at all. And the new Witch Hunters army will be advertised in church bulletins with the preacher telling people they should buy it. 

... I would like to submit this as a rumor? 

(No joke, I had dream about Warhammer models... also I beat the crap out of a hot asian lady who was trying to steal our car)


----------



## coke123

Lesiu said:


> As far as I know, DCCW is a walker only item (rulebook, page 73, DCCW being described in walkers section). So either wargear section got descrioption of nemesis doomfist for both dreadnought and dreadknight or it's just a CCW with fancy name for dreadknight.
> 
> It's quite interesting, as i can't think of any non-walker unit that ever had a DCCW...


DCCWs are not walker-only- Wraithlords have them as standard. They act as powerfists without the initiative modifier, IIRC.

Of course, this is all assuming that Nemesis Doomfists do act like DCCWs. For all we know the only thing they have in common is that they're both have the word 'fist' in their name.


----------



## Azezel

ibm6789 said:


> (No joke, I had dream about Warhammer models... also I beat the crap out of a hot asian lady who was trying to steal our car)


Actually, that's entirely normal.

Funny thing aboput dreams, even if you can remmember them when you wake up, or even later in the day, after a couple of days the memory will be gone. That keeps you from spotting patterns.

Keep a dream diary, you'll notice that you dream about your hobbies fairly often. It's to be expected, your hobbies are important to you, you invest significant thought into them and ascribe to them an import that is, objectively, greater than they otherwise might deserve. It's only to be expected that elements apear in your dreams.

There were Necrons in my dream a few weeks ago, and 40k elemments show up in my dreams semi-regularly. Chances are almost everyone on the forums dreams about the game from time to time, but never realise it.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I would say that I do not dream, but as far as I am aware that would be impossible without losing your sanity. I have not, however had a dream about anything remotely 40k, or Jeep, or on line porn related ... my only hobbies. The last dream that I can remember was more of a reliving of my past ... a time I wish that I could undo. I do not like the dreams that I have had as almost all of them are of my past, never some crazy world that weird shit happens. 

Bot: GK codex is shaping up to look pretty good if rumors are 50% true. I am so anticipating its release.


----------



## Katie Drake

OIIIIIIO said:


> I have not, however had a dream about anything remotely 40k, or Jeep, or on line porn related ... my only hobbies.


Yeah, thing with dreams is that oftentimes you can't remember having any at all, even if you did have them. Usually it takes a vivid or strange dream to actually make any impact on the memory, especially for any length of time.


----------



## Kettu

Azezel said:


> Funny thing aboput dreams, even if you can remmember them when you wake up, or even later in the day, after a couple of days the memory will be gone. That keeps you from spotting patterns.


And if you can remember a dream perfectly several years later?

Had a dream back in 1998, not much happened, chased my cousins around and I fought Smoke from the old Mortal Combat games. I still remember it all perfectly to this day.

That and I have a person who has appeared in every dream I have had for the longest time now and I have never met anyone who resembles her in the slightest in real life.

---

Anywho, Redshirt Rumour Time.

Yes, yes, I know Red Shirts are typically the last to know anything but none the less...

Allegedly GK are getting four plastic kits on release (Termies, Normals, Grey Knightimus Prime and one that they wouldn't say what it was) and three metal kits (Rerelease of Cortez, Walky McThrone and this new lady =][=) and a bunch of blisters which were not disclosed.

Take all of the above with a dash of salt for taste and enjoy. Serves 1.


----------



## oiad

Judas Masias said:


> Hey check out this crazy shit that a friend of mine posted up on our game store's web site...


Aahh, after so many millennia it was about time the Imperium had a change of direction and a tune up along the way - T'was stale.


----------



## Lesiu

coke123 said:


> Lesiu said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, DCCW is a walker only item (rulebook, page 73, DCCW being described in walkers section). So either wargear section got descrioption of nemesis doomfist for both dreadnought and dreadknight or it's just a CCW with fancy name for dreadknight.
> 
> It's quite interesting, as i can't think of any non-walker unit that ever had a DCCW...
> 
> 
> 
> DCCWs are not walker-only- Wraithlords have them as standard. They act as powerfists without the initiative modifier, IIRC.
> 
> Of course, this is all assuming that Nemesis Doomfists do act like DCCWs. For all we know the only thing they have in common is that they're both have the word 'fist' in their name.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you are terribly wrong, Wraithlords have plain strength 10 in their profile. Fists on the model have no reflection in rules at all, they just look cool :wink:

About that Red Shirt rumour, I think he just checked rumours floating around the internet and added few ideas of his own. We already know we are getting those 3 plastic kits and few blisters, rerelease of Coteaz and Karamazov sounds like an educated guess, so that just leaves us with Valeria, but I don't think she can get metal kit, it's more of a blister character.


----------



## coke123

Lesiu said:


> Sorry, but you are terribly wrong, Wraithlords have plain strength 10 in their profile. Fists on the model have no reflection in rules at


*Checks codex* Ah, you are correct. *Digs out old codex* They did last edition, however, this is probably what confused me. So we can say that there is a _precedent_ for non-walkers to have DCCWs, although GW has probably steered away from this direction for whatever reason. Atm, however, there are no non-walkers with DCCWs, but it is definitely within the realms of possibility, especially when we're talking about a shiny new codex with all kinds of crazy new rules.

On a sort-of-but-not-really related note, I am intrigued by the vindicare's ability to shoot away an invulnerable save. Does anyone think that GW might start introducing more rules which attack wargear/abilities, rather than damaging models, in a similar vein to the Shieldbreaker round?


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Maybe nemesis doomfist works differently for DK and dreddy...


----------



## Lesiu

coke123 said:


> *Checks codex* Ah, you are correct. *Digs out old codex* They did last edition, however, this is probably what confused me. So we can say that there is a _precedent_ for non-walkers to have DCCWs, although GW has probably steered away from this direction for whatever reason. Atm, however, there are no non-walkers with DCCWs, but it is definitely within the realms of possibility, especially when we're talking about a shiny new codex with all kinds of crazy new rules.
> 
> On a sort-of-but-not-really related note, I am intrigued by the vindicare's ability to shoot away an invulnerable save. Does anyone think that GW might start introducing more rules which attack wargear/abilities, rather than damaging models, in a similar vein to the Shieldbreaker round?


Hmm, I didn't think about the old codex, on the other hand it's from 3rd edition, so...

Tau got something like that long time ago - markerlight. It doesn't damage units, but gives a lot of cool options. Old wych weapons also affected your opponent. Those are the two examples that came to my mind but i bet there are more. Still I think those kind of weapons are great, they give you a lot of possibilities and make gaming skill far more important.



Brother Siegfrid said:


> Maybe nemesis doomfist works differently for DK and dreddy...


Imo basic Dreadknight will be armed with just 2 CCW (maybe with fancy name). It's already a GREAT choice for 130 points, with 2+/4++ and T7 he has higher durability than Tervigon, Trygon or Wraithlord, only MCs with that kind of staying power are probably Avatar (but only with fortune), Tyranofex (still vulnerable to lascannons/lances/etc.) or Great Unclean One (really slow).
I would guess that this greatsword might give him str 10, but deny extra A?(2H weapon?)


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Atm, however, there are no non-walkers with DCCWs, but it is definitely within the realms of possibility, especially when we're talking about a shiny new codex with all kinds of crazy new rules.


Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the Doomfist doesn't follow the same rules as anything already in the game.


----------



## Vhalyar

Kettu said:


> Anywho, Redshirt Rumour Time.
> 
> Yes, yes, I know Red Shirts are typically the last to know anything but none the less...
> 
> Allegedly GK are getting four plastic kits on release (Termies, Normals, Grey Knightimus Prime and one that they wouldn't say what it was) and three metal kits (Rerelease of Cortez, Walky McThrone and this new lady =][=) and a bunch of blisters which were not disclosed.
> 
> Take all of the above with a dash of salt for taste and enjoy. Serves 1.


In contrast, Stickmonkey recently mentioned that the first wave would be focused on the Grey Knights with half a dozen metals (+ plastics, of course), with very little or no Inquisition models. The second wave, coming at most in late fall, would be Inquisition focused. Of course his post no longer exists, courtesy of the idiotic Warseer mods, and I'm pretty sure he had a few extra details.

Also, both the Dreadnought and Dreadknight have Doomfists except the 'nought has an attached storm bolter. That would result in two distinct weapon profiles, meaning they can be anything.


----------



## Synack

It'll probably be the same as the blood fists. It's Matt Ward we're talking about


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the Doomfist doesn't follow the same rules as anything already in the game.


What's that? Something new? What is this madness!


----------



## Irbian

Ok, something to chew while expecting the newsletter. Do you think we´ll see something from this?:
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Inquisition_-_Unreleased


----------



## godzy

Irbian said:


> Ok, something to chew while expecting the newsletter. Do you think we´ll see something from this?:
> http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Inquisition_-_Unreleased


wasn't one those- the female inquisitor with hellrifle released? some are just cool. sage with double barrels shotgun? yes please k:


----------



## hungryugolino

I'm just praying for a rerelease of stormtrooper models, preferably sculpted by someone who knows what they're doing/ in plastic.


----------



## Winterous

godzy said:


> wasn't one those- the female inquisitor with hellrifle released?=


It's an... Infernus pistol or something, and that model is available, or was at least.


----------



## boreas

Speaking of dreams... I have a cold and was extremely feverish last night. I also had this dream that I was coming home on the bus (which I never take because I live and work at the far end of suburbia). With me, I had my brand new box of plastic GKT, which I opened on the bus to asseble them, because they were snap-fit (!). I was a bit displeased that they also were the same size, style and feel and "He-Man" action figures (about 5" tall). Not only that, but they were cheaply pre-painted (ugh!).

The final straw was the "My Little Pony" unicorns that were included in that large box (baneblade-sized) because of the option to mount the termies on them...

Man, the flu virus is bad this year 

Phil


----------



## vetsgtnamaan

Hey I would so buy unicorn riding greyknight calvary


----------



## TheSpore

boreas said:


> Speaking of dreams... I have a cold and was extremely feverish last night. I also had this dream that I was coming home on the bus (which I never take because I live and work at the far end of suburbia). With me, I had my brand new box of plastic GKT, which I opened on the bus to asseble them, because they were snap-fit (!). I was a bit displeased that they also were the same size, style and feel and "He-Man" action figures (about 5" tall). Not only that, but they were cheaply pre-painted (ugh!).
> 
> The final straw was the "My Little Pony" unicorns that were included in that large box (baneblade-sized) because of the option to mount the termies on them...
> 
> Man, the flu virus is bad this year
> 
> Phil


Thats just creepy


----------



## Irbian

TheSpore said:


> Thats just creepy


THat would be awesome. Dark steeds from chaos reign itself, tamed by the power and pride of bestial GK who have the "The ends justify the means" as motto. Their bloody horns at the light of tthe destruction flames while crashing tank below their legs


Yeah, I could play that :biggrin:

Edit: Oh, and a plastic puked rainbow of course


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

vetsgtnamaan said:


> Hey I would so buy unicorn riding greyknight calvary


yes.....and draigo riding a bloodthirster like in a rodeo :laugh:


----------



## oiad

Pfft, Unicorns would make the Grey Knights too effeminate. 

Galaxy Ranger style robo-steeds are where it's at!


----------



## Irbian

By the way, I have been looking the old rumours and is interesting to see what come from the playtest copy and what not.

Im intrigued when Stickmonkey said that there were 7 FA choices. I wonder which ones were the other six.

And about the plastic releases, it has been mentioned that will be PA, TA, Dreadknight (DK), and rhino upgrade. Its good to have this in mind next weeks


----------



## Synack

Well, if the rumours and test codex are anything to go by, I think my first GK list will look something like this at 1650 points (what we play in my neck of the woods).

Crowe
Vindicare Assassin

10x GK w/ 2x psycannon, rhino
10x GK w/ 2x psycannon, rhino
10x Purifiers w/ 4x Incinerators

Dreadknight w/ Hvy Psycannon
Dreadknight w/ Hvy Psycannon
LRC

Think thats decent list with 30 scoring models on the table.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> By the way, I have been looking the old rumours and is interesting to see what come from the playtest copy and what not.
> 
> Im intrigued when Stickmonkey said that there were 7 FA choices. I wonder which ones were the other six.
> 
> And about the plastic releases, it has been mentioned that will be PA, TA, Dreadknight (DK), and rhino upgrade. Its good to have this in mind next weeks


I know Penitent Engines were rumoured to be in FA earlier, I posted many rants about it. There were also some rumours about tons of IG being in the book as well and that orbital bombardment would be replaced with Deathstrike Missile launchers. I think Stormtroopers in Valkyries were in FA as well at some point, rumoured any ways. GW then apparently scrapped the IG part of the dex.

If any of this is true or not who knows but still.

Oh yeah, on the latest Eternal Warriors it seems one guy dug around the so called GK leak and it seems the PDF was created in 2009, so it's a VERY early play test version.

Greenskin newsletter is out which means the GK newsletter is 99% guaranteed to be the next one we get. If I'm wrong I will ban a random member on the site :crazy:


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I know Penitent Engines were rumoured to be in FA earlier, I posted many rants about it. There were also some rumours about tons of IG being in the book as well and that orbital bombardment would be replaced with Deathstrike Missile launchers. I think Stormtroopers in Valkyries were in FA as well at some point, rumoured any ways. GW then apparently scrapped the IG part of the dex.
> 
> If any of this is true or not who knows but still.


You're mixing the sources!

Penitent Engine: Blood of Kittens.
IG Copy/Paste: Stickmonkey, who said it was somewhat dubious in the first place [at that point in time].



Irbian said:


> And about the plastic releases, it has been mentioned that will be PA, TA, Dreadknight (DK), and rhino upgrade. Its good to have this in mind next weeks


Not quite, you're misremembering.



Stickmonkey said:


> Boxes:
> Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???
> 
> TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?
> 
> PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?
> 
> walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.
> 
> Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.


At this point a tank kit seems unlikely since vehicles don't appear to have psycannon options. Or anything special really beyond a few minor upgrades that wouldn't require a plastic kit. Seems to me that we're only getting three plastic boxes.


----------



## Vhalyar

And separately...


MadCowCrazy said:


> Oh yeah, on the latest Eternal Warriors it seems one guy dug around the so called GK leak and it seems the PDF was created in 2009, so it's a VERY early play test version.


I'm looking at the PDF properties and it says it was created on 01/10/2011.
Edit: And I don't mean the date it was saved on my hard drive, before anyone asks.


----------



## coke123

Vhalyar said:


> I'm looking at the PDF properties and it says it was created on 01/10/2011.
> Edit: And I don't mean the date it was saved on my hard drive, before anyone asks.


But that's just when the pdf was created. Just because a guy scanned it (and it's clearly a scan) in January doesn't mean anything; it could've been sitting around as a hard copy for years before the person in question scanned it and put it up on the internet.


----------



## Vhalyar

coke123 said:


> But that's just when the pdf was created. Just because a guy scanned it (and it's clearly a scan) in January doesn't mean anything; it could've been sitting around as a hard copy for years before the person in question scanned it and put it up on the internet.


True enough; I'm so used to working in InDesign to make PDFs that I actually forgot that it was a scanned document.
Still wondering where the 2009 came from though; I can't find anything alluding to that date.


----------



## OpTi

probably a playtester who remember that iteration?


----------



## Irbian

Vhalyar said:


> Not quite, you're misremembering.


No, I´m not



Dice Like Thunder said:


> 80% chance of Jan release, will be codex GK, maybe Necrons in April, Witch Hunters will be a White Dwarf update a few months later (WTF?!).
> Release items : PAGK 10man plastic kits, TAGK 5man plastic kit, some GK walker; think best items from SW and BA for dread, stormraven, GK upgrade kits for Rhinos and less likely Razorbacks, no allies, IG like fodder units.


The stormraven is out already. So that could mean PA,TA,DK and vehicles upgrade. Im not saying that is for sure (you can just see the rest of his record), just that is something to remember.

Plus metal blisters. Any guess here?


----------



## Vhalyar

Irbian said:


> The stormraven is out already. So that could mean PA,TA,DK and vehicles upgrade. Im not saying that is for sure (you can just see the rest of his record), just that is something to remember.
> 
> Plus metal blisters. Any guess here?


The wording is pretty similar to Stickmonkey's, they either had the same source or they simply reported on what he said. Even down to the IG fodder stuff.

As for metal:


Vhalyar said:


> Stickmonkey recently mentioned that the first wave would be focused on the Grey Knights with half a dozen metals (+ plastics, of course), with very little or no Inquisition models. The second wave, coming at most in late fall, would be Inquisition focused. Of course his post no longer exists, courtesy of the idiotic Warseer mods, and I'm pretty sure he had a few extra details.


Toss in his previous rumored line-up and you get:
- Justicar Upgrade Character (Thawn, easy to guess)
- Paladin Upgrade Character (Draigo seems obvious)
- Chaplain (Could be either Crowe or just the Brotherhood Champion)
- New Stern
- An Inquisitor (This dates from 08/2010; possibly pushed back to wave 2?)
- Two unknown blisters


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> GW then apparently scrapped the IG part of the dex.


I'm not going to go on about this too much as 
A: SM isn't here too counter and 
B: he gets enough flak despite the fact he has a very good ratio of hits to misses,
that said though the IG part was never there to begin with


----------



## Irbian

Vhalyar said:


> The wording is pretty similar to Stickmonkey's, they either had the same source or they simply reported on what he said. Even down to the IG fodder stuff.


Yeah, it seems that. That was because I pointed it 



> As for metal:
> 
> Toss in his previous rumored line-up and you get:
> - Justicar Upgrade Character (Thawn, easy to guess)
> - Paladin Upgrade Character (Draigo seems obvious)
> - Chaplain (Could be either Crowe or just the Brotherhood Champion)
> - New Stern
> - An Inquisitor (This dates from 08/2010; possibly pushed back to wave 2?)
> - Two unknown blisters


Im happy to have the current stern. The new one probably will be bigger, but the current one is perfectly ok. Now is my unnamed brother champion

About the chaplain/champion, Im going for crowe. A unnamed champion is easy to do with some bits.

And the two unknown...Mordrak and... dontknow
The inquisitor, even pushed, could be Valeria


----------



## Brovius

coke123 said:


> But that's just when the pdf was created. Just because a guy scanned it (and it's clearly a scan) in January doesn't mean anything; it could've been sitting around as a hard copy for years before the person in question scanned it and put it up on the internet.


But to anyone outside of the US, the PDF won't be created until October, in which case there will be no point, as we will havethe real deal by then


----------



## GrizBe

Metal blisters seems to always been special character/units these days. The two 'unknown' blisters.... Would I be going out on a limb to wish for new assassin models? 

Otherwise... Mordrak and 'Ghost Knights'?


----------



## Vhalyar

GrizBe said:


> Otherwise... Mordrak and 'Ghost Knights'?


Mordrack seems pretty likely, but Ghost Knights? These are 100% coming from the terminator box


----------



## bhsman

IIRC correctly didn't Stickmonkey refer to the Justicar as being in PA and having the double-bladed weapon? Thawn's a Terminator Justicar upgrade and there wasn't any mention of him having a special weapon unless I misread his fluff.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I LOVE Mordrak. You can take pretty cheap Terminators with him and their Deep Strike in first turn can be so distracting for the opponent. It's also good that he has the Grand Strategy Rule.

What I also thought about:

Grandmaster gives a GK Striking Squad "Scout". The Squad gets personal teleporter. 30" Scout move, 6" moving, shooting, 6" charge --> First turn Close Combat. Sounds pretty mean against shooting armies....:crazy:


----------



## Vhalyar

bhsman said:


> IIRC correctly didn't Stickmonkey refer to the Justicar as being in PA and having the double-bladed weapon? Thawn's a Terminator Justicar upgrade and there wasn't any mention of him having a special weapon unless I misread his fluff.


Close! He posted this in late 2009:



> I got to see the DH/WH character designs yesterday, there are about a dozen named inquisition, incl existing.
> 
> one looks like a gk chaplain.
> a sister w what looks like twin arm mounted SBs.
> a named preacher.
> new concept for throne of judgement less like a converted dread.
> sister w twin cat o nine tails.
> confessor w a big staff w what looks like integrated flamer
> named seraphin w new jump pack, more marine like (large jets) but retains some archaic details, also has sword and combi weapon
> another gk named justicar, w 2 ended force weapon.
> a gk vehicle based character.


No mention of power armor that I could remember or find though.


----------



## godzy

Akhara'Keth said:


> Grandmaster gives a GK Striking Squad "Scout". The Squad gets personal teleporter. 30" Scout move, 6" moving, shooting, 6" charge --> First turn Close Combat. Sounds pretty mean against shooting armies....:crazy:


you meant D3 of these :grin: 42" assault range FTW
they'l probobly nerf it abit, but still, what a deal.

and the psycannon spam possibilities. its an autocannon on speed. 180 for 16 S 7 shot a turn.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

And don't forget Mordrak with 10 Deep Striking Terminators in first turn behind the enemy lines^^


----------



## coke123

Brovius said:


> But to anyone outside of the US, the PDF won't be created until October, in which case there will be no point, as we will havethe real deal by then


By pdf, you mean the leaked codex, right? Because that isn't restricted to the US...



Akhara'Keth said:


> I LOVE Mordrak. You can take pretty cheap Terminators with him and their Deep Strike in first turn can be so distracting for the opponent. It's also good that he has the Grand Strategy Rule.


Not too mention that in the leak, he counts as an upgrade character for the Ghost Knights, so no singling him out in CC.



Akhara'Keth said:


> Grandmaster gives a GK Striking Squad "Scout". The Squad gets personal teleporter. 30" Scout move, 6" moving, shooting, 6" charge --> First turn Close Combat. Sounds pretty mean against shooting armies....:crazy:


Or alternatively, 30" scout move to see the rear armour of the enemy's main battle tanks, and let rip with psycannons on the first turn. Awww yeah.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Don't forget that Psycannons can also be fired as Assault Weapons. So destroy the transporter and than kill the people inside. Goodbye Chimaera and Razorback Spam Lists^^. Damn, I just got so many awesome ideas for lists. We need a special discussion thread for the leaked codex^^

EDIT: Any idea what the Brotherhood Banner could be?


----------



## raven925

Did anyone get any info on what bonus a nemesis daemon hammer gives to the user? i dont think i caught it.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Nemesis Daemonhammer gives +1S


----------



## raven925

Also, does anyone know what bonus a nemesis halberd grants?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

raven925 said:


> Also, does anyone know what bonus a nemesis halberd grants?


+1 Ini

*The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.*


----------



## Winterous

raven925 said:


> Did anyone get any info on what bonus a nemesis daemon hammer gives to the user? i dont think i caught it.


Quoted from the first post of this thread.


> -Nemesis Halberd: +1 Initiative
> -Nemesis Daemonhammer: +1 Strength
> -Nemesis Falchions: Force Lightning Claws
> -Nemesis Warding Stave: Power weapon that conveys a 2++ Invulnerable save. (I know. Madness.) They\'re 25-20 points per depending on the squad.
> -Daemonhammer - This entry confuses me. There\'s both a Nemesis Daemonhammer and a regular Daemonhammer, but as far as I know, this one is a Thunderhammer with Daemonbane.


Try looking 
If you use Firefox (not sure about other browsers), ctrl+f opens the 'find' thing, which searches a page for the text you type.


----------



## raven925

Winterous said:


> Quoted from the first post of this thread.
> 
> 
> Try looking
> If you use Firefox (not sure about other browsers), ctrl+f opens the 'find' thing, which searches a page for the text you type.


Thanks for the info.

Also thanks for telling me how to use the internet.


----------



## Synack

Akhara'Keth said:


> EDIT: Any idea what the Brotherhood Banner could be?


IIRC, Stickmonkey said that Gk would get a banner that would be pretty much the same as Space Wolves, so probably re-rolling 1s in combat or something.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

I think a playtest beta wouldn't have been paginated with quotes and pictures. There are some notes about the pagination too. I suppose rules are quite complete and that's in an early pagination phase. Playtesters don't need such a tidy PDF. A simple ASCII text would be enough for that purpose.

Are you really sure a grey knight has 3 powered attacks in CC for a 20 points only model?
IMHO there are two possibilities:
- SB will not grant an extra attack in CC
- nemesis weapons are not power weapons for ordinary gk
Try to compare an assault space marine with a PA grey knight....
One assault marine= 18 points
Supposing a PW costs about 10 points for a model with 1 A and 1 W, we have a 28 points model.
A gk with teleporter should cost 26 points. Two points less. But he does much more than an assault space marine, thanks to all his additional rules.


----------



## ETP

storm bolter doesnt grant extra attacks
ward stave 2++ IN CC ONLY


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

ETP said:


> storm bolter doesnt grant extra attacks
> ward stave 2++ IN CC ONLY


And all nemesis weapons are FW and PW?

Thanks for the info, but.... Are you sure about that?


----------



## Synack

ETP said:


> storm bolter doesnt grant extra attacks
> ward stave 2++ IN CC ONLY


I'm sorry, but multiple people have said ward staff is normal 2++. The storm bolter thing is up in the air, no body knows.

If you've got inside info, then so be it, but you're the only voice vs multiple people who have said otherwise and have been known to be right.

Either way, I'm sure we'll find out in a couple weeks.


----------



## ETP

force.
subject to change from playtest to print


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Synack said:


> Either way, I'm sure we'll find out in a couple weeks.


Too long... I want to know it right now :laugh:

Both things said by ETP make sense.


----------



## Brovius

coke123 said:


> By pdf, you mean the leaked codex, right? Because that isn't restricted to the US...


I was being a smartass about their time/date format. 01/10/2011 is read as the first of October for most parts of the world, whereas Americans see it as the 10th of January


----------



## Lucian Kain

I'm woundering if a Purgation squad can Astral Aim from a Landraider/Stormraven,I understand it can't shoot into transports,maybe a loophole be in the dex???


----------



## ETP

allowable. too costly to be abuseable.


----------



## Synack

I'd really love to know the actual stats for the psycannon (and heavy), incin (and Heavy) and psilencer (and Heavy)


----------



## coke123

Brovius said:


> I was being a smartass about their time/date format. 01/10/2011 is read as the first of October for most parts of the world, whereas Americans see it as the 10th of January


Right... gotcha.



Lucian Kain said:


> I'm woundering if a Purgation squad can Astral Aim from a Landraider/Stormraven,I understand it can't shoot into transports,maybe a loophole be in the dex???


I don't see how you're interpreting it this way. The reason you can't fire from a transport without fire points is not a question of LoS, but that it's not allowed...



ETP said:


> allowable. too costly to be abuseable.


How is it too costly to be abusable? in doing this you've effectively strapped four extra psycannons on to any vehicle with a transport capacity... and they can fire indirectly. Rhinos would quite the threat, and Razorbacks would be a light battle tank. Oh, and you can't destroy the weapons.


----------



## ETP

apologies , he is correct. codex had no restriction, but looking closely at the brb it is impossible. still wouldn't be overpowered as ive found astral aim to really be poor


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, Grey Knights don't get an extra Attack for storm bolters. Really people, come on. Nobody really thinks 20 points for a model packing a force weapon, storm bolter, psychic abilities and a Space Marine statline is really going to get an Attack bonus too... right? Right?

Warding stave is a 2+ Invul in close combat only.


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, Grey Knights don't get an extra Attack for storm bolters. Really people, come on. Nobody really thinks 20 points for a model packing a force weapon, storm bolter, psychic abilities and a Space Marine statline is really going to get an Attack bonus too... right? Right?


At that point cost, I'm having more trouble believing they're power weapons.


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> At that point cost, I'm having more trouble believing they're power weapons.


Well, a single Attack with a power weapon isn't really all that dangerous. Knights don't have WS5 anymore and only hit as hard as a normal Space Marine (not counting Hammerhand), so Grey Knights in power armor really aren't that vicious in combat.

You can tell that the power armored Grey Knights aren't intended to fight much up close - that's the job of the Terminators.


----------



## Synack

No info on the wargear (weapon) stats?


----------



## jimbo1701

Thanks for the info KD. I gather you have some access to the wargear section? So NFWs are force weapons or power weapons? Also, something that's causing debate over on the BnC is how exactly the nemesis doomfist works on a dreadknight - S10 or S7? 2 of them grant an extra attack?? Cheers. :grin:


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, Grey Knights don't get an extra Attack for storm bolters. Really people, come on. Nobody really thinks 20 points for a model packing a force weapon, storm bolter, psychic abilities and a Space Marine statline is really going to get an Attack bonus too... right? Right?


Depends what the rest of the book is like. If the anti-tank and anti-Monster stuff is cheap and plentiful elsewhere in the book, 20pts per head for these models might not be a bad deal. If not, then it's too expensive for models that can't kill tanks or Monsters.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Thank you katie.
I have a doubt...
All NFWs grant +1 to invulnerable saves or just NF swords do that?


----------



## Katie Drake

jimbo1701 said:


> Thanks for the info KD. I gather you have some access to the wargear section? So NFWs are force weapons or power weapons? Also, something that's causing debate over on the BnC is how exactly the nemesis doomfist works on a dreadknight - S10 or S7? 2 of them grant an extra attack?? Cheers. :grin:


Force weapons. Not power weapons. And nobody ask "Are they only force weapons but not power weapons?" because that doesn't make sense. Read the force weapon rules, people! Particularly the "Force weapons _are power weapons_" part. 

Nemesis Doomfists are S10 as far as I'm aware. I can't say for sure though as I never asked my source.



Brother Siegfrid said:


> Thank you katie.
> I have a doubt...
> All NFWs grant +1 to invulnerable saves or just NF swords do that?


Only force swords give a bonus to the Invulnerable save and it only works if the model has an Invulnerable save to begin with. So Terminators would have a 4+ Invulnerable in close combat, but power armored Grey Knights wouldn't have one at all.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Thanks again katie


----------



## boreas

Well, GKSS all having force weapons (over power weapons) is semantics, really, as the unit can only use one FW _or_ hammerhand. So, most of the time, the unit will effectively count as having powerweapons. I still think that 20pts for a marine w/stormbolter and (effectively)PW is still a good deal, though

Phil


----------



## Lesiu

Thanks for all the info Katie. k:

I have to admit I admire your patience and persistence in answering the same questions again and again. Especially when you write:


Katie Drake said:


> Really people, come on. Nobody really thinks 20 points for a model packing a *force weapon*, storm bolter, psychic abilities and a Space Marine statline is really going to get an Attack bonus too... right? Right?


And 3 posts later someone asks if nemesis are force or power weapon :hang1:


----------



## boreas

I just had a thought: will the DK's Nemesis Great Sword give +1 to it's inv. save? With a doomfist and a NGS we'd get a St10 2+/3++ MC for 155pts!? I sincerely doubt it, but hey that would just crucify Nids players everywhere!

Phil


----------



## Synack

God, I never thought of that


----------



## Winterous

boreas said:


> I just had a thought: will the DK's Nemesis Great Sword give +1 to it's inv. save? With a doomfist and a NGS we'd get a St10 2+/3++ MC for 155pts!? I sincerely doubt it, but hey that would just crucify Nids players everywhere!
> 
> Phil


No, it's a different kind of weapon, for sure 
Although WHAT it does is beyond me, what could it do differently than the fist?


----------



## Frank Fugger

So that's the Grey Knights covered - what's the anti-tank like? What slots can you put it in? How cheap is it in comparison to the Troops slot stuff? Can you bring anti-tank in the Troops slots?


----------



## Synack

GKs ability to deal with tanks will be revealed once we know the stats of the psycannon and heavy varient, as well as possibly the psilencer (and heavy varient) stats.

Until then, it's guess work.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> So that's the Grey Knights covered - what's the anti-tank like? What slots can you put it in? How cheap is it in comparison to the Troops slot stuff? Can you bring anti-tank in the Troops slots?


The Grey Knights don't have a lot of heavy duty anti-tank equipment. Things like lascannons, multi-meltas and so on are less common here than with other armies. They make up for it by fielding a ton of weapons that are easily able to suppress enemy vehicles (mostly psycannons as well as things like assault cannons on Stormravens, Land Raiders and even Razorbacks should they wish). It's possible to field multiple units of Henchmen with meltaguns if the player takes Coteaz. Chimeras and Rhinos are as good for Grey Knights as they are for Guard and Marines, so it isn't too difficult to get units into melta range.

So mostly, heavy duty anti-tank will be relatively rare and expensive for Grey Knights due to the platforms that these weapons are mounted on, but Knights can field lots of the slightly less destructive weapons, so it all balances out.

EDIT: Thought I posted this earlier, but the stats for psycannons and incinerators are as follows:

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending or Range 36" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending

Incinerator
Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1


----------



## Winterous

Hell yeah, what a bad ass gun!
I think that'll deal with vehicles nicely (the Psycannon, obviously), two of them shooting Heavy should average a bit more than 1 Penetration on AV14


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> So mostly, heavy duty anti-tank will be relatively rare and expensive for Grey Knights due to the platforms that these weapons are mounted on, but Knights can field lots of the slightly less destructive weapons, so it all balances out.


So it's Crisis Suit spam, except instead of Kroot and Fire Warriors you have a bunch of Grey Knights ready to smash your face in with a rock?

That could be... interesting. In a good way, which is strange. Although a Land Raider or two is still going to ruin your day.

Does Coteaz let you field multiple Henchman units, then? I thought it was one per Inquisitor. Also how much are the GK special weapons, roughly? Still 30pts for a Psycannon?


----------



## jimbo1701

Katie Drake said:


> Psycannon
> Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending or Range 36" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending
> 
> Incinerator
> Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1


Cheers for the info as always KD. Couple of quick questions which you may/not be able to clarify if I can:

1. SO incinerators are S6 but don't rend - I thought they were essentially rending heavy flamers? I gather the psyflame vehicle upgrade makes dreadnought flamers and redeemer cannons ignore invulnerable saves same as psybolt ammo?

2. Any idea on the psilencer, as it seems to be the biggest remaining question on peoples minds. 

3. Far as you can tell, is it the fact that strike squads can take teleporters that makes their relative cost (and that of their other upgrades) seem high when compared to say terminators or say purifiers. 

Thanks as always.


----------



## MichaelCarmine

Katie Drake said:


> Incinerator
> Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1


Hell yeah!:yahoo:


----------



## boreas

Well, I can't see myself spamming... A unit of 5 purgators w/4 psycannons runs 180pts. With a NGK and a LR, they provide a nice array of transport, AT, Anty-hordes, etc. Or 2 NDK, but one shooty and one CC. 

The only thing I'd "spam" is the SR, has a single one is too vulnerable. But I hardly call a pair of SR "spamming".

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> Psycannon
> Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending or Range 36" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending
> 
> Incinerator
> Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1


Wonderful. Just to be on the safe side, Psybolt Ammo is +1 STR to storm bolters, right? Not ignore invulnerable saves.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> So it's Crisis Suit spam, except instead of Kroot and Fire Warriors you have a bunch of Grey Knights ready to smash your face in with a rock?
> 
> That could be... interesting. In a good way, which is strange. Although a Land Raider or two is still going to ruin your day.


Sort of, yes. Land Raiders and similar can be problems, but it isn't like the Knights have zero access to lascannons and melta weaponry - it's just limited to more specialized units. So taking lists with nothing but psycannon toting Grey Knights will leave you terribly vulnerable to certain units/builds... which is as it should be. It's supposed to be about finding a balance.



> Does Coteaz let you field multiple Henchman units, then? I thought it was one per Inquisitor. Also how much are the GK special weapons, roughly? Still 30pts for a Psycannon?


Yes, he allows you to take more than one Henchmen unit and makes them Troops.



jimbo1701 said:


> Cheers for the info as always KD. Couple of quick questions which you may/not be able to clarify if I can:
> 
> 1. SO incinerators are S6 but don't rend - I thought they were essentially rending heavy flamers? I gather the psyflame vehicle upgrade makes dreadnought flamers and redeemer cannons ignore invulnerable saves same as psybolt ammo?


No rending as far as I'm aware. I'm fairly certain that psyflame gives rending, though.



> 2. Any idea on the psilencer, as it seems to be the biggest remaining question on peoples minds.


As silly as it sounds, I forgot to ask about this thing here.



> 3. Far as you can tell, is it the fact that strike squads can take teleporters that makes their relative cost (and that of their other upgrades) seem high when compared to say terminators or say purifiers.
> 
> Thanks as always.


I'm not sure its only the teleporters to be honest. Grey Knight Strike Squads pay different costs for their upgrades because Grey Knight Strike Squads are meant to be used very differently than Terminator Squads. Psycannons are cheap for PAGK because they aren't Relentless like Terminators are and Terminators pay an extremely small amount of points for an incinerator simply because it doesn't match their intended role quite as well - it's like how a vanilla Terminator squad spends a lot on a cyclone missile launcher but very little on a heavy flamer.

EDIT:



Vhalyar said:


> Wonderful. Just to be on the safe side, Psybolt Ammo is +1 STR to storm bolters, right? Not ignore invulnerable saves.


Right.


----------



## Vhalyar

Thanks. Those stats make me glad that I'll be able to run a tightly GK-focused army without gimping myself.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Bah, and the psilencer and gattling spilencers are the two weapons I'm most curious about out of all the stuff we have heard. Well, psyflame I'm curious about as well but I remember reading it's the exact same thing as psybolt but for incinerators.

I got my Alclad 2 chrome paint today, going to see if I can do some test sprays this Friday to see what you can do with this stuff. Hoping it's as good as advertised


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Bah, and the psilencer and gattling spilencers are the two weapons I'm most curious about out of all the stuff we have heard. Well, psyflame I'm curious about as well but I remember reading it's the exact same thing as psybolt but for incinerators.


Remember Stinger? He talked about a gatling "psycannon": STR 5, 12 shots. Since he used gatling and those stats don't match with the psycannon's, I think we can assume it's the DK psilencer. Of course that was a while ago, but it gives an idea of the concept at least.


----------



## boreas

And then again, a St5 psylencer for free on the GKSS would also make sense. Assault 2? 3?

Phil


----------



## Keecai

boreas said:


> And then again, a St5 psylencer for free on the GKSS would also make sense. Assault 2? 3?
> 
> Phil


i would be suprised at this, or why would you take the storm bolters at all? unless the range or AP id reduced too.

Do we have any info on the henchmen, in particular the warriors and the options they get? are they gonna be bs3 or bs4?


----------



## Vhalyar

Keecai said:


> i would be suprised at this, or why would you take the storm bolters at all? unless the range or AP id reduced too.?


keep in mind that you lose your nemesis weapon by getting a psilencer.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> Remember Stinger? He talked about a gatling "psycannon": STR 5, 12 shots. Since he used gatling and those stats don't match with the psycannon's, I think we can assume it's the DK psilencer. Of course that was a while ago, but it gives an idea of the concept at least.


Well, those are the stats I heard the Heavy Psycannon had, so which has what?
Then again if the leak is true you can put a HPsilencer AND a HPsycannon on it


----------



## jimbo1701

Thanks again for your replies KD. Think I'm starting to get a feel for how the DK operates now, but there's still one point that confuses me. It starts with 2 nemesis doomfists, but can upgrade one to a nemesis daemonhammer, for XX 
pts, or to a nemesis greatsword for XX pts. 

1. Now, if the greatsword works like a nemesis force sword, then presumably it ups the IV save by 1, at the sacrifice of using the base strength of the unit rather than the s10 of the nemesis doomfist. Fair trade, BUT, what then is the point of a nemesis daemonhammer on this unit, as it can't exceed s10 by adding +1 to the S of the unit. 

2. Has everything with the word 'nemesis' in it got the force weapon rule, so for example does this allow a dreadnought/knight with a 'nemesis' doomfist to instant kill anything T6 and above using it's one psychic power? (in the case of the knight)

3. Following on from that, how do nemesis weapons work in a normal squad? something like, they all use their force weapons as normal PWs, but if the squad leader hasn't used a psychic power (i.e. hammerhand) then they can elect to make their weapon ONLY a force weapon, as befitting the brotherhood of psykers rule?

Cheers once more. Very grateful for all the info you've given us all.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Well, those are the stats I heard the Heavy Psycannon had, so which has what?
> Then again if the leak is true you can put a HPsilencer AND a HPsycannon on it


Well thing is he called it a gatling psycannon, which doesn't actually exist. It's either a gatling psilencer or a heavy psycannon. Lowering the S by two points for something called "heavy" seems very weird, while 12 shots for something called "gatling" makes sense. Hence why I think he was talking about the psilencer when he gave those stats.


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## Keecai

Vhalyar said:


> keep in mind that you lose your nemesis weapon by getting a psilencer.


Ha... Yea i forgot about that. 
In that case it could be possible, however until some more info comes out it could be just about anything.


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## Synack

Thanks for the stats on the Psycannon Katie, I assume the heavy version of the psycannon for the Dread is simply more shots, dunno about the heavy incin tho, maybe AP3.

I'm sad about the loss of ignoring invun saves tho, which really fit with them fighting daemons. Sad to see this one dropped.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Okay, I know that all the Nemesis Weapons give different bonuses like +1S or +1 Ini, but do they count as Power Weapons or not? I read some blogs and half of them say that Nemesis weapons are power weapons, other side says they don't. So what's with them now? Power weapon or not?


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## ETP

I know this thread is gigantic... but kate had just answered this one.

They are force weapons. Force weapons are power weapons.


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## Akhara'Keth

Hmmm, dunno if I shall like it or not. The chance of an overkill in CC will be very high. That's not so good....But on the other hand it would be awesome against Space Marines and other high saves


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## Synack

Akhara'Keth said:


> Okay, I know that all the Nemesis Weapons give different bonuses like +1S or +1 Ini, but do they count as Power Weapons or not? I read some blogs and half of them say that Nemesis weapons are power weapons, other side says they don't. So what's with them now? Power weapon or not?


They are force weapons and as per BRB, force weapons are power weapons. This has been asked and answered multiple times over the past 10 pages.


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## Synack

Vhalyar said:


> Well thing is he called it a gatling psycannon, which doesn't actually exist. It's either a gatling psilencer or a heavy psycannon. Lowering the S by two points for something called "heavy" seems very weird, while 12 shots for something called "gatling" makes sense. Hence why I think he was talking about the psilencer when he gave those stats.


He also said that the Hvy Incinerator would fire like a Hell Hound, which has me excited, since alot of the stuff he mentioned happened to pan out in one way or another.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Synack said:


> dunno about the heavy incin tho, maybe AP3.


It fires like the Hellhound Inferno cannon, basically you can place the template up to 12" away from you then bend it anyway you like as long as the big end is not closer to the tank than the small one.

I wish sisters would get something like this with all their regular flamers, but like 4" in front of them instead of 12". Would help them survive a little better from close attack mobs. I really hope Sisters remain a close quarters army that are weak in CC. Basically they need to get close with all their flamers but if you get in CC with regular sisters they are pretty boned (literally and figuratively).


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## Mathai

Maybe something like giving some of the Sister units an ability similar to the current Callidus' to remain out of close combat? Only more where the lower point models only succeed on a 4 or 6, and only HQ's get anything but a one to disengage from battle early on.


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## Brovius

jimbo1701 said:


> 3. Following on from that, how do nemesis weapons work in a normal squad? something like, they all use their force weapons as normal PWs, but if the squad leader hasn't used a psychic power (i.e. hammerhand) then they can elect to make their weapon ONLY a force weapon, as befitting the brotherhood of psykers rule?


Since Froce Weapons are power weapons, it makes no difference until the enemy rolls their saving throws. 
If the enemy has a multi-wound model in the unit being attacked by the Grey Knights, you can roll for the psychic test, as per normal with a force weapon. Because the entire unit consists of force weapons, any wounded enemy model can be soul-sucked, not just models that the Librarian or Grand Master inflict an unsaved wound on.


----------



## jimbo1701

Brovius said:


> Since Froce Weapons are power weapons, it makes no difference until the enemy rolls their saving throws.
> If the enemy has a multi-wound model in the unit being attacked by the Grey Knights, you can roll for the psychic test, as per normal with a force weapon. Because the entire unit consists of force weapons, any wounded enemy model can be soul-sucked, not just models that the Librarian or Grand Master inflict an unsaved wound on.


The force weapon rules refer to 'the psyker' taking a Ld test in order to inflict instant death upon the victim, whereas the brotherhood of psykers rule in the pdf refers to the unit as a single psyker, with the justicar/leader being targetted for perils of the warp, Ld tests etc, hence the confusion.


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## Katie Drake

jimbo1701 said:


> 1. Now, if the greatsword works like a nemesis force sword, then presumably it ups the IV save by 1, at the sacrifice of using the base strength of the unit rather than the s10 of the nemesis doomfist. Fair trade, BUT, what then is the point of a nemesis daemonhammer on this unit, as it can't exceed s10 by adding +1 to the S of the unit.


I'm not sure what the greatsword does. I _thought_ it was +2 Strength but I'm not entirely certain.



> 2. Has everything with the word 'nemesis' in it got the force weapon rule, so for example does this allow a dreadnought/knight with a 'nemesis' doomfist to instant kill anything T6 and above using it's one psychic power? (in the case of the knight)


Basically.



> 3. Following on from that, how do nemesis weapons work in a normal squad? something like, they all use their force weapons as normal PWs, but if the squad leader hasn't used a psychic power (i.e. hammerhand) then they can elect to make their weapon ONLY a force weapon, as befitting the brotherhood of psykers rule?
> 
> Cheers once more. Very grateful for all the info you've given us all.


Yeah the unit chooses either to use force weapons or Hammerhand (or any other power).


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## Vhalyar

I completely missed the post where you said that warding staves are 2++ only in assault. Now that's complete shit; there goes the only way to protect your characters from being gibbed by perils.


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## Avariel

What are stats on the Heavy Psycannon and what various assault weapons for the dreadknight do?

This would impact whether Dreadknights are good to take or not. Yes it is a monster and pretty tough to kill but can it shoot well or fight well in combat.

Also there are rumors of the Corteaz + Inquisition spam list with many vehicles filled with 3 scoring henchmen each. Is this legal? Seems there should be a limit of 6 troops choice henchmen squads.


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## Ferik

Kind of courious about the GK Nemesis weapons are they using the old rules for Force Weapons IE: removing models or are they using the new rule IE: Instant Death?

If its the new rules it seems kind of pointless to give the entire army Force Weapons seeing as their main enemies are Deamons (I still consider them Deamon Hunters) which are all Eternal Warrior and so cannot be Insta gibbed
just my opinion though.

Then even if they are Power Weapons they are again useless VS. Deamons since they all have Invuls anyways so anouther waste especially without the attack to back it up or even compare to their "prefered enemy".

This is all from a "fluff" standpoint mind you.

So do the GK have anything to ignore Invuls anymore? or anything that specifically helps them against their ancient advesaries.

All in all though I will probably start them like I need anouther marine army to do but damn the way all the models have been for other armies lately I may not be able to stop myself :ireful2:

Anyhoo cheers all.


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## Synack

Ferik said:


> Kind of courious about the GK Nemesis weapons are they using the old rules for Force Weapons IE: removing models or are they using the new rule IE: Instant Death?
> 
> If its the new rules it seems kind of pointless to give the entire army Force Weapons seeing as their main enemies are Deamons (I still consider them Deamon Hunters) which are all Eternal Warrior and so cannot be Insta gibbed
> just my opinion though.
> 
> Then even if they are Power Weapons they are again useless VS. Deamons since they all have Invuls anyways so anouther waste especially without the attack to back it up or even compare to their "prefered enemy".
> 
> This is all from a "fluff" standpoint mind you.
> 
> So do the GK have anything to ignore Invuls anymore? or anything that specifically helps them against their ancient advesaries.
> 
> All in all though I will probably start them like I need anouther marine army to do but damn the way all the models have been for other armies lately I may not be able to stop myself :ireful2:
> 
> Anyhoo cheers all.


It will be the new rules, so ID. Gk have got new toys like Warp Rift and Crowe/Brotherhood dude, who have rules for removing units from play with no saves and bypassing EW.


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## Mathai

While I have no basis for this, I have been imagining the Dreadknight's big sword to be the goto weapon for bypassing Invulnerable saves. I havent seen anyone verify it as anything else beyond speculation that it raises the Invulnerable save like the Nemesis Longswords, but as it is designed to take out the big Daemons, I cant imagine how better to do that then by denying them any saves whatsoever.


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## Pyriel

> I completely missed the post where you said that warding staves are 2++ only in assault. Now that's complete shit; there goes the only way to protect your characters from being gibbed by perils.


That is true.

What I dont get is how on earth a GK terminator army with that expensive models will be anything near viable?

40p terminators that die like flies to the cheapest plasmaspam almost every other army can and will put out dont really sound like balanced.

Same thing goes in close combat, the first hammer and shield terminator squad (and they are plentiful) will make the GK army null and void!
Especially now when the power weapon toting GK terminators only get 2 attacks and the force weapon ability is only usable on one single model due to the "brotherhood of psychers" rule.


So my question is to anyone who knows is:
What is there to make an infantry based GK army possible and with possible I mean even remotely competitive?
I am or after hearing about the "invul saves only in Cc", rather was hoping to build a GK terminator heavy army.

Sadly I see absolutely no way of fielding one and being granted even a remote chance of balance when my models will die like flies to plasmacannons, meltaguns, plasmaguns etc etc.

They dont have the options to mix in stormshields for 3++ inv saves like space wolf terminator armies or dark angel terminator armies or even SM terminator assault squad armies.

Thus is the GK terminator army option just not doable?


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## ETP

wow, chicken little, the sky is not falling yet. relax.

terminators will be a force to be reckoned with even without the storm shield. you have multiple transport optios, the ability to be given stealth, scouting and deepstriking options to keep safe. not to mention that you will have strong shooting options, rather than being cc or nothing . and in cc you are no pushover with 4++, i4,str5 and the options of things like the 2++ stave or lightning claws.

besides, anything can happen between now and the final draft.


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## Synack

I'm still clinging to some sort of hope that they will get SS/TH options


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## Katie Drake

Pyriel said:


> That is true.
> 
> What I dont get is how on earth a GK terminator army with that expensive models will be anything near viable?


Well Grey Knight Terminators are no more expensive than loyalist Terminators, so it shouldn't be a big deal.



> 40p terminators that die like flies to the cheapest plasmaspam almost every other army can and will put out dont really sound like balanced.


Sure they're balanced. By constructing a list made up entirely of Grey Knight Terminators and nothing else, you're creating an imbalanced list. Imbalanced lists tend to fare extremely well against some armies and very poorly against others. They become largely rock/paper/scissors affairs, which is why balanced lists are better and often more fun to play with.



> Same thing goes in close combat, the first hammer and shield terminator squad (and they are plentiful) will make the GK army null and void!
> Especially now when the power weapon toting GK terminators only get 2 attacks and the force weapon ability is only usable on one single model due to the "brotherhood of psychers" rule.


Well Grey Knights would be silly to throw themselves into a combat with Hammernators without softening them up first. With storm bolters all over the place as well as extremely deadly weapons like psycannons available in significant numbers, it shouldn't be _too_ hard to kill some models before combat starts. Then there's Hammerhand to make sure that the Knights hit hard enough to cause a lot of wounds once combat starts.


> So my question is to anyone who knows is:
> What is there to make an infantry based GK army possible and with possible I mean even remotely competitive?


Infantry based? Absolutely. Entirely Grey Knight Terminators? Probably not. I still think the best lists will be Hybrid ones (with both infantry and vehicles), but I don't see why an all-infantry Grey Knight army couldn't work as long as the player was willing to use units like Grey Knight Strike Squads, Purgation Squads, Henchmen and so on.

Remember that Grey Knight armies can be rather good at getting into the opponent's deployment zone if they want. Units with personal teleporters can _Shunt_ early on, Grand Masters can grant friendly units _Scout_. Mordrak is able to Deep Strike on turn 1 without scatter, Stormravens can _Scout_ as well. Even Librarians can use the Summoning to bring friendly units into the fight. It shouldn't be too hard to cut down on the number of turns that you need to endure heavy shooting before getting stuck in.


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## Synack

Katie Drake said:


> Stormravens can _Scout_ as well.


Woah, Woah, Woah, there little missy. Lets roll back there a second, this is the first I have heard of this. 

As far as we know, it's not possible to give the Storm Raven a ability from the GM's power and in order for a transport to get the scout ability of a unit inside it, then it needs to be a dedicated transport.

So how exactly does a Storm Raven get scout? Cause this changes things... alot.


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## coke123

^erm... the same way pretty much everything else in the codex will get scout- Grand Masters Grand Strategy rule.


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## Baron Spikey

coke123 said:


> ^erm... the same way pretty much everything else in the codex will get scout- Grand Masters Grand Strategy rule.


Would this be the same Grand Strategy rule that can't be used on any vehicles except Walkers?


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## coke123

Baron Spikey said:


> Would this be the same Grand Strategy rule that can't be used on any vehicles except Walkers?


Aww lame, missed that bit. Statement retracted. So the question stands- how the hell do they scout? Unless Grand Strategy has been changed...


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## ETP

pretty sure that was an honest mistake , they dont scout.


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## Katie Drake

Ugh, sorry everybody, don't know what I was thinking. Stormravens don't Scout, though they can Deep Strike. Nonetheless, I feel my point stands. It's quite possible to get a lot of Grey Knights in people's faces very early on in the game.


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## Synack

Ah man! I got so excited there


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## Brother Siegfrid

I had a playtest match yesterday, against space wolves.
Two notes:
- vindicare assassin is OP. If they didn't change his rules in the final version of the codex, we will see him in every army list
- the dreddy with reinforced aegis is very useful vs enemy powers, especially if used in combination with librarian psychic hood


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## Ninja D

Keecai said:


> i would be suprised at this, or why would you take the storm bolters at all? unless the range or AP id reduced too.
> 
> Do we have any info on the henchmen, in particular the warriors and the options they get? are they gonna be bs3 or bs4?


Far as I can tell from what I've read, Warrior Acolytes are BS 3 and have a lot of options for weaponry (boltgun, stormbolter, hot-shot lasgun, combi weapons, power weapons, storm shield, power fist) and have three armor options (flak, carapace, power). Oh and meltabombs...

And I haven't seen any henchman choice have a better BS than 3 (even the weaponsmiths). However, this is all early info and is subject to change with the final 'dex.


----------



## Katie Drake

Brother Siegfrid said:


> - vindicare assassin is OP. If they didn't change his rules in the final version of the codex, we will see him in every army list


I truly mean no offense, but I refuse to believe that such a conclusion can be reached after a single test game against a single army against a single list in a single... you get it.



> - the dreddy with reinforced aegis is very useful vs enemy powers, especially if used in combination with librarian psychic hood


Yes, it's very good. _Very_ good. Though I expect most people to just opt to not cast psychic powers against Dreadnoughts.


----------



## Synack

Katie Drake said:


> Yes, it's very good. _Very_ good. Though I expect most people to just opt to not cast psychic powers against Dreadnoughts.


According to the test codex, Reinforced aegis effects any unit within 12" of the dread. So if a Lash prince was targeting a GK squad that is within 12" of the dread, then he would be making the test at -4 LD.

I could see my doing this against my buddies chaos army if I decided to play a foot GK list, to stop me from being lashed every which way.


----------



## Dagmire

I wount play a test army as alot can change from the test codex i have. Let just hope power gamers dont ruin it for everyone.


----------



## Platton725

Do you get 2D3 Grand strategies with 2 Grandmasters?

If so, 2 GMs and 3 Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters give a pretty good chance of a first turn assault with 3 T7 W4 2+/4++ monsters, first turn. (Scout 30", move 12", assault 6"). BLITZ!!!

Also, The "heavy mode" psycannon will average 29% pens per salvo on a Landraider. Compare that with 11% for a lascannon.... A Hammerhead Railgun is at 22% (albeit AP1 does make it about equal or slightly better, as it can destroy even on a glance).

So where's the need for "heavier" AT guns? Psycannons ftw!


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Exactly, synack  that's how I used it 
@Katie: I was just sharing my experience 
However there are many ways in order to shoot down the vindicare. In CC he is very weak and he can be killed easily by enemy fire(a Gatling fire or just some shots at S8 or above; but you have to fail a 3+ cover save first ^^). If you know how to move and protect him, vindicare can be really annoying for the enemy. The shield-breaker is the real problem. It just needs to hit and with BS 8 you will never fail. A wolf lord became an easy prey for my terminator yesterday thanks to that kind of bullet.

Maybe we will see more infiltrators in the future in order to beat him ^^
I have to say that if I played against nids , genestealers and ymgarl ones could have been a great challenge.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Vindicare Assassin is useful. Useful is not OP. He is also horribly expensive and uses up an Elites slot which, if the Codex is going to be about specialised units doing specialised things, will more likely than not make him a liability.

He didn't get any tougher, y'see, just a bit more killy. And he still only gets 5 shots per game.

I'm going by the test Codex though so just how good, bad or ugly he ends up remains to be seen.

EDIT: As an army the Sisters are perfect. Leave them alone. A little long range fire support or some options to give the army a different flavour would be nice, but neither are necessary. They don't need Polymorphine or magical power weapons that make your squads burst into flames in every squad. They don't need anything. They need to be left alone. They're fine. Honestly. Really, truly fine.


----------



## Coyote77

Not sure how GK will fair against Eldar and Nids. Shadow of the Warp and Eldar hoodoo mean 3d6 on psychic tests. Guess just focus on the shooty and the punchy and pretend you don't have powers unless it is a good gambit.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Platton725 said:


> If so, 2 GMs and 3 Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters give a pretty good chance of a first turn assault with 3 T7 W4 2+/4++ monsters, first turn. (Scout 30", move 12", assault 6"). BLITZ!!!


Yeah, the GK now have many options to be in CC with the whole army in T2. 30" Scouting, Deep Striking Mordrak in T1...


----------



## Synack

If you get first turn, the vindi will be golden. If you get 2nd turn, there's a high likely hood that any smart player will focus him down. I would probably go to ground with him if I saw a decent amount of fire coming his way for a 2+ cover save. Losing him for a round is better than losing him for the game.


----------



## Lesiu

Akhara'Keth said:


> Yeah, the GK now have many options to be in CC with the whole army in T2. 30" Scouting, Deep Striking Mordrak in T1...


I wouldn't get too excited about this. There might be some limitations to the scout move and personal teleporters in final version, like: you cannot use 30" move as scout move. GW hardly ever allows to assault on turn 1 and those are usually weak units, like deff copta, guardsmen from V or scout bikes. And with current meta game it's questionable to throw half of your army into first turn assault. It will work like this, you scout, you move, you charge some vehicles, then some angry dudes get out and wipe your expensive but just 3+ save dudes with plasma/melta or just bolter spam. Dreadknights might survive a bit more, but it's easier to kill them with meltas and lascannons than with lascannons only.

I know it might work, but as a heavy mech guard player I can tell you I'd be delighted if my opponent send 10 guys and 2 MCs (more than 700 points) to charge me while rest of his army is footsloging on the other half of the board.


----------



## starfyreXXX

Hey all,

I saw the note that stormbolters don't give an extra attack. Fine..BUT, are regular GKs base 1 or 2 attacks then? I'm hoping 2, just for sake of making them different than every other basic marine out there (as they should be more costly and 'better').

Regards,

Sanjay


----------



## Katie Drake

starfyreXXX said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I saw the note that stormbolters don't give an extra attack. Fine..BUT, are regular GKs base 1 or 2 attacks then? I'm hoping 2, just for sake of making them different than every other basic marine out there (as they should be more costly and 'better').
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Sanjay


One. One Attack. Grey Knight Strike Squad members are intended for fire support, not close combat. The sooner people accept this, the better off they'll be (in regard to list writing and tactics, I mean).


----------



## Ninja D

starfyreXXX said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I saw the note that stormbolters don't give an extra attack. Fine..BUT, are regular GKs base 1 or 2 attacks then? I'm hoping 2, just for sake of making them different than every other basic marine out there (as they should be more costly and 'better').
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Sanjay


All I saw in the playtest (so this could be old or bad info), GKs have 1, Justicars 2, Purgation GKs 1 or 2 (it's different in both of their listings), and Purifier GKs 2. 

With all that being said, for their points (20 a pop as of that listing) I have to agree with Katie that it's a hell of a bargain even without the 2 attacks. They get all sorts of other things from NFW, 3 types of grenades and stormbolters, plus the psychic might of the squad as a whole. That's just the standard stuff. All the upgrade options are going to really make these guys shine in various roles depending on how many points you want to put into them.

Again, this info could change in a couple of weeks, but if it stays like it is, I'm not going to miss that 2 attacks profile. I'll most likely be using these guys mainly as a nice first line support role to the Terminators with the option to utilize their versitality and plus up firepower or CC ability and add personal teleporters depending on army point totals and who I'm going up against.


----------



## Vhalyar

By the way Katie, this is the miscellaneous wargear pieces we don't have any information about. I don't suppose you can shed light on any of them?



> Empyrean brain mines
> Servo-skulls
> True silver armour
> Brotherhood Banner
> Psyocculum (Same as in C: WH?)
> 
> Psyk-out grenades (How much -ld?)
> Psychotroke grenades
> Rad grenades
> Blind grenades


They sure get plenty of grenades.


----------



## Winterous

Vhalyar said:


> I completely missed the post where you said that warding staves are 2++ only in assault. Now that's complete shit; there goes the only way to protect your characters from being gibbed by perils.


Empyrean brain mines.

Empyrean is the Warp.

Brain mines could indicate one of two things:
An explosive device planted in the brain.
Some sort of brain defence mechanism (mines often meaning land mines, an area denial tool).

The former I imagine would mean some sort of psychic explosive upon death, which is unlikely.
The latter would indicate a defence mechanism AGAINST the Warp, probably negating Perils in some way.


----------



## RedemptionNL

And don't forget the Warp Field Stabiliser, Nemesis Doomfists (difference between on a Dreadnought and a Dreadknight) and all the other Dreadknight weaponry. Or did I miss any of those items?


----------



## Synack

Warp Stab Fields negate perils on vehciles. Very useful if you ask me.


----------



## Vhalyar

RedemptionNL said:


> And don't forget the Warp Field Stabiliser, Nemesis Doomfists (difference between on a Dreadnought and a Dreadknight) and all the other Dreadknight weaponry. Or did I miss any of those items?


We already know what the warp stabilizer does and I'm pretty sure that Katie is tired of hearing people ask about the fists and weapons. I'm asking about the things that have mostly passed under everyone's radar.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

IMHO:
* Servo-skulls 1W R3 ( additional wounds for HQs)
* Brotherhood Banner reroll all saves for 1 round


----------



## boreas

It's funny how some seem to already see the codex as being uncompetitive while others cry "cheese"! Some are afraid the lack of Stormshield will make our termies "terrible" (when they can get 4++ instead of 3++, but can strike at Ini with St5 if they manage the test. Plus, they score!). Some are unhappy with the 1A GKSS (while I see a regular marine that got a SB and FW for +3pts). Others fear the lack of psychic defense (while, if anything, we have better than most if you look at the Psychic hood, Aegis and possibly brain mines whereas Tau, Orks, IG have nothing!).

The way this codex is positioning itself, to me, is this: Eldar Marine. Playing GKs will be like playing Eldars. You'll have very potent "tools" that you'll have to bring at the right place, at the right time, to do the right job. Completely the opposite to Codex: Point-and-click (aka Space Wolves). Also, like Eldars, we get Wraithlords (DK), fast transports (SR) and psychic might (frankly, I find our powers a bit better).

I think the players that will be unhappy, in the long run, are those who will want to do "specialty" armies. All termies (or worst all paladins). Footslogging pure GKs. No matter how it hurts your fluff, those henchmen units will give a huge boost to any army. Some GK players fear that plasma spam will hurt them? Right back at them with a 220pts unit of 10 acolytes in a chimera w/6 plamaguns AND 4 meltaguns. Move 12", smoke, pray, move 12" zap! Or just use two 140pts unit of 5 plasma-acolytes and a Xenos =I= w/ conversion beamer. The 2 plasma groups move up where needed while the two inquisitors are in each corners of the deployment zone, shooting across the table St10Ap1 blasts. Oh, and a few jokareo in there (and hope for that +12" on your plasma/meltagun!)

I'm pretty excited by all this! And imagine, we haven't seen all the wargear. I'd be suprised at the +1 wound for servo skulls. A 6 wounds GKGM for +15pts seems too good!

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

I'm glad some of you have ideas as to what the gear does, but that's not really the point


----------



## Synack

Yeah, servo sculls giving +1W seems a little off.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

that was just a supposition


----------



## Irbian

Vhalyar said:


> By the way Katie, this is the miscellaneous wargear pieces we don't have any information about. I don't suppose you can shed light on any of them?
> 
> 
> 
> They sure get plenty of grenades.



Dont forget the psilencer! 

The true silver is something for vehicles that "poison daemons". Not poison like the rule, but from a fluff point. 

In warseer we had a little piece:



> Hey Everyone!
> 
> Got to thumb through the new White Dwarf yesterday at my local and the back page, devoted to the next issue, obviously show the Grey Knights! Sadly no picutres of the new release but GW did paint three different Stormravens for the GKs! Image shows three GK StormRavens flying over a large host of daemons.
> 
> GK issue to be released March 26th which I think would put the advance order on the 9th or 16th if the trend continues. __________________


----------



## Avariel

Someone on warseer said that heavy psy cannons are Strength 8 AP3 Rending Heavy 6. Can anyone confirm or deny?


----------



## Synack

Avariel said:


> Someone on warseer said that heavy psy cannons are Strength 8 AP3 Rending Heavy 6. Can anyone confirm or deny?


I will cream my pants if this is true.


----------



## Winterous

Synack said:


> I will cream my pants if this is true.


The fucking BANE of Transporthammer.


----------



## Ninja D

Synack said:


> I will cream my pants if this is true.


I'll just stick with fielding them in my army...


----------



## boreas

Considering it's BS4, that would be OTT, I think. Still, GW will want us to buy a ton of those kits...

If that's the case, 2 thinks we should rightly fear (oblits and Tau suits) are now running for cover!

Phil


----------



## Vhalyar

Not seeing this at warseer, got a link?


----------



## Irbian

with that stats there is little it can´t shred in pieces


----------



## Champion Alaric

Dagmire said:


> I wount play a test army as alot can change from the test codex i have. Let just hope power gamers dont ruin it for everyone.


:laugh: what game do you play??


----------



## Coyote77

Ninja D said:


> I'll just stick with fielding them in my army...


Why not do both ?


----------



## Pyriel

> Well Grey Knight Terminators are no more expensive than loyalist Terminators, so it shouldn't be a big deal.


Well they go down faster then other terminators that can mix in or use units with good protection from shooting.
Thats a bit bothersome. 



> Infantry based? Absolutely. Entirely Grey Knight Terminators? Probably not. I still think the best lists will be Hybrid ones (with both infantry and vehicles), but I don't see why an all-infantry Grey Knight army couldn't work as long as the player was willing to use units like Grey Knight Strike Squads, Purgation Squads, Henchmen and so on.


So the only use strike knights have in an infantry GK army would in reality be to negate opponent any powerful deepstriking shooty units that can otherwise pod down (plasma, melta pods, obliterators etc) and wipe GK units.

For fire support they pretty much only shoot bolter fire (at 20p per model) and in Cc they are very bad for how easy they go down themselves.

The really odd thing imo is the ability to upgrade a 200p strike squad (that really doesnt add much to the Cc or shooting department) to reach above 500p per squad...and still die just as easy to fire. Seems weird, if I upgrade my ork nobs to more then twice their point cost they absolutely rock and bring in exponentially more power for the points used to beef them up.



> Remember that Grey Knight armies can be rather good at getting into the opponent's deployment zone if they want. Units with personal teleporters can Shunt early on,


Hmm, so by using either a special character or a libby or an expensive and super fragile flyer you can deepstrike terminators near the opponent without scattering, ok that sounds reasonable and fun.

What should those say, 800p of paladins do about that demolisher pie plate or those dirt cheap plasmacannon longfangs I see in many games?

This is where I guess a librarians shrouding power comes in handy but how does it work?
-Does it grant a cover save (of what?)
-Does it increase an already present cover save?

Meaning if your 5++ save terminators are in the open what happens to them when shrouding is cast on them? Will the save go up to 4++ or do they need a cover save present in order to gain a benefit from shrouding?

Maybe shrouding is meant to repair the insane shooting vulnerability in GK infantry armies?
What about games vs the typical dark eldar army with 12+ lances, with no save for PAGKs and only a 5++ for terminators there wont be any army left beyond turn 3.
I just cant see infantry GKs survive against anything other then orks.

As for vindicare assassins, I see no OP what so ever with those guys.
3 lascannon or 3 missile hits and the guy is gone not to mention how much first turn hurt Dark eldar or tau shooting will do to him and the rest of the army.

That is unless an assassin like the vindicare can be attached to another unit to avoid being missile sniped, can they?



> Again, this info could change in a couple of weeks, but if it stays like it is, I'm not going to miss that 2 attacks profile. I'll most likely be using these guys mainly as a nice first line support role to the Terminators with the option to utilize their versitality and plus up firepower or CC ability and add personal teleporters depending on army point totals and who I'm going up against.


At 25p per grey knight with WS5 and S6 weapons I think they were better although certainly not more versatile.

To me the GKs are to SM what SM is to everything else.
Expensive multirole units that get eaten for breakfast to all other armies CC and shooty specialists in their respective fields.

They are weee bit better then SM in melee and weee bit better then SM in shooting but as soon as a specialist is added (hammer terminator or plasmacannon marine) they loose badly, really badly.
A shootout between a 185p tac squad toting a plasmacannon and a plasmagun vs a 220p GK squad with 2 psycannons or any terminator squad will go badly for the more expensive GK models.

So you need to add a little of this and a little of that and the only working GK army will be a BADLY outnumbered conglomeration of vehicles, walkers, and infantry. 
Pretty much like the Dark Angel codex - works only when a little of everything is taken, if any "extreme/specialist" build is tried it all goes to hell.

To bad since I like being able to do weird things with my armies (like SM) and still be able to get balance and thus, fun.


----------



## mycnh

With all of this dependence on psychic powers to power up the army, aren't anti-psyker foes (Eldar, Space Wolves) gonna have a hayday on them?

I hope not - kinda hoping to go toe-to-toe with the hated Eldar ...


----------



## boreas

Pyriel said:


> Well they go down faster then other terminators that can mix in or use units with good protection from shooting.
> Thats a bit bothersome.
> 
> They are weee bit better then SM in melee and weee bit better then SM in shooting but as soon as a specialist is added (hammer terminator or plasmacannon marine) they loose badly, really badly.


I'm really surprised at that hate... First, there was hate because the GKs were too much like U-marines. Now, there's hate because GKs are not enough like u-marines?

Ok, so we get a 4++ only in CC. That sucks when you get pie-plated or plasmaed to death. But otherwise? Let's bring some more mathammer fun:

-5 GKT (NFS) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). NO hammerhand!

GKT assault: 10 SB shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 0.55 dead. GKT attack 15 times, hit 7.5 times, wound 3.75 times (all on TH&SS): 1.25 wounds. Total: 1.8 wounds (1 TLC and 1 TH&SS are taken away).
2 TLC ass-term attack: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.1 wound not saved. 2 TH&SS attack: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, 0.8 wounds not saved. Total: 1.9 wounds (2 GKT are taken away).

TIE

-5 GKT (NFS) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). WITH hammerhand!

GKT assault: 10 SB shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 0.55 dead. GKT attack 15 times, hit 7.5 times, wound 5 times (3 on TH&SS, 2 on TLC): 2.33 wounds. Total: 2.9 wounds (2 TLC and 1 TH&SS are taken away).
2 TLC ass-term attack: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.1 wound not saved. 2 TH&SS attack: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, 0.8 wounds not saved. Total: 1.9 wounds (2 GKT are taken away).

GKT win by one

-Ass-term assault: 2 TLC attacks 8 times, hit 4 times, wound 3 times, 1.5 not saved. GKT attack 10 times, hit 5 times, wound 2.5 times, 0.8 not saved (all on TH&SS). TH&SS attack 9 times, hit 4.5 times, wound 3.75 times, 1.9 not saved.

GKT get their asses kicked!

Moral of the story? Don't get assaulted by a deathstar unit! But that's the point of the game anyways, no? But, I think, here's where the termies get better: falchions!

-5 GKT (2 NFS, 3 falchions) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). WITH hammerhand!

GKT assault: 10 SB shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 0.55 dead. GKT w/falchions attack 12 times, hit 6 times, wound 5 times (3 on TH&SS, 1.5 on TLC). GKT w/swords attack 6 times, hit 3 times, wound 2 times. 7 wounds are put: 4 on TH&SS 3 on TLC: Total: 3.9 wounds, including shooting (2 TLC and 2 TH&SS are taken away).
2 TLC ass-term attack: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.25 wounds (all on NFS), 1.1 wound not saved. 1 TH&SS attack: 2 attacks, 1 hits, .9 wounds, 0..45 wounds not saved (on surviving NFS). Total: 1.55 wounds (2 GKT are taken away).

Ass-term. get their asses kicked!

Ok, that's all big and boring mathammer. In "real 40k life", units don't fight in a void and things can (and will) go wrong, etc, etc and so on and so forth. Plus I probably screwed a few things here and there (like I assumed the shooting wound would be taken off the TH&SS models, so TLC always got their full attacks). But the point is this: our termies are scoring units that can go toe-to-toe with one of the best unit in WH40k while still keeping a different flavor. And don't forget they get grenades. And they can shoot (which hammernator can't do... at all!)

Phil


----------



## Alessander

Other Mysteries not yet revealed:

Empyrean Brain Mines
Psychotroke Grenades
Rad Grenades
Blind Grenades
Brotherhood Banner
Digital Weapons

Inq Only:
Hellrifle
Condemnor Boltgun
Nul Rod (probably like the old one)
Psyocculum
Needle Pistol
Scythian Venom Talon
Ulumeatni Plasma Syphon

Truesilver Armor


----------



## GrizBe

Needle Pistol? A return of a 2nd ed weapon? 

Basically they were guns that fired a poisoned needle that could have several different effects. Duno what they'd do in the modern game....


----------



## boreas

Well, right now the eversor's pistol (executionner pistol) can be fired like a bolt pistol (St4 Ap5, pistol) OR a needle pistol (St x Ap6, pistol wounds on a 4+).

Phil


----------



## Pyriel

> I'm really surprised at that hate... First, there was hate because the GKs were too much like U-marines. Now, there's hate because GKs are not enough like u-marines?
> 
> Ok, so we get a 4++ only in CC. That sucks when you get pie-plated or plasmaed to death. But otherwise? Let's bring some more mathammer fun:


No not hate, I love my GKs to death and plan on making the worlds best looking GK army (hubris I know).

Rather its a big disappointment, GKs are meant to be e l i t e with a chapter full of terminators and YET I am unable to make terminator builds because they sock in melee vs Cc specialists and they absolutely, totally suck at surviving any cheap shooting that negates 2+ saves and every army besides orks can spam terminator killing power for peanut points.

Against other terminator armies, that are considered to be less elite then the GKs, there is the option for protection, staying power and specialist units, GK terminators are just expensive, easy to kill models even with nothing special in Cc cost-for-cost other then S5 IF they pass Ld and only every second phase since you can only cast one power per turn.

I really looked forward to a true elite GK army that doesnt have to take everything in order to be playable in vs-all environments. I´m still suepr happy about a new codex and all but think about this:

To stand a chance in a tourney the GK army has to include a dreadnought for psycher protection (and it dies just as ridicusly easy as all other dreadnoughts), a vehicle to get stable warp field so that my psychers dont get perils all the time vs eldar and nid armies, a purifyer squad to handle hordes, a strike squad only for the anti deepstrike ability (lets be fair, they such at making any real damage)
some terminators for the melee part IF they can be bothered to survive first turn of shooting and a HQ.

The funny part is that all these options cost so much you cant take them with any safety margin what so ever. Turn one and your AV12 dreadnought is dead and there goes your eldar defenses, wheee.



> -5 GKT (NFS) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). NO hammerhand!
> 
> GKT assault: 10 SB shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 0.55 dead. GKT attack 15 times, hit 7.5 times, wound 3.75 times (all on TH&SS): 1.25 wounds. Total: 1.8 wounds (1 TLC and 1 TH&SS are taken away).
> 2 TLC ass-term attack: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.1 wound not saved. 2 TH&SS attack: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, 0.8 wounds not saved. Total: 1.9 wounds (2 GKT are taken away).
> 
> TIE


True but you are forgetting one thing, shooting.
Those hammer and LC squads can laugh at tau railguns, plasmacannons, IG plasma commandsquads of utter terminator doom etc while the so called "elite" GK terminators, even paladins, are screwed all the way to monday.
Same goes for strike squads.

I thought elite armies, and GKs are supposed to be "the" elite army, had their weak point in low model count and expensive toys, not like this codex will make them, low model count, expensive toys and No staying power what so ever until the surviving rags manage to chase down something to tie it up in melee...and pray t wasnt any Cc specialist unit



> Moral of the story? Don't get assaulted by a deathstar unit! But that's the point of the game anyways, no? But, I think, here's where the termies get better: falchions!
> 
> -5 GKT (2 NFS, 3 falchions) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). WITH hammerhand!


And here is my point eactly. Falchions!
There is a big reason why we (at least I have never) never see any full LC terminator squads. They suck vs shooting!
Shields do the trick much better so gray knight terminators get the leftovers, pay MORE points for LC terminators that SM armies dont take due to low shooting survivability (falchions dont get the 4++ save in cc afaIk, only swords) and loose shooting on top of that.

Bad deal, very bad.


Well nuff arguing, I understand and agree with your points and I dont hate the GK codex, I´m just sad it forces pretty much fixed builds (a little bit of everything) to stand a chance to compete and pretty much every other army can shoot them to hell by taking dirt cheap AP2-3 weapons.


----------



## GrizBe

boreas said:


> Well, right now the eversor's pistol (executionner pistol) can be fired like a bolt pistol (St4 Ap5, pistol) OR a needle pistol (St x Ap6, pistol wounds on a 4+).
> 
> Phil


Duh.. of course. *kicks brain*


----------



## boreas

Pyriel said:


> And here is my point eactly. Falchions!
> There is a big reason why we (at least I have never) never see any full LC terminator squads. They suck vs shooting!
> Shields do the trick much better so gray knight terminators get the leftovers, pay MORE points for LC terminators that SM armies dont take due to low shooting survivability (falchions dont get the 4++ save in cc afaIk, only swords) and loose shooting on top of that.
> 
> Bad deal, very bad.


The reason we pay more is because we keep the shooting because falchion only replace the sword not the SB. For 225pts, you have 5 termies w/ TLC AND stormbolters (and grenades!). 5 of those assaulting 5 TH&SH Termies would kill 1 to shooting and then attack 20 times, hit 10 times wound 8-9 times (HH+re-roll) and kill another 3. The lone TH&SS would attack twice, hit once, kill 1 and lose combat by 2.

All that in terrain  Of course, we'll be more fragile to shooting, hence the need for vehicles. But GWs seems to have provided us with sturdier vehicles than most SM (with psychic drivers...)

GKs will definitely be harder to play than SW. We couldn't expect another "point-and-click" codex and frankly, I happy that all SM armies won't be "count-as" GKs. Try and imagine that this is actually an Eldar codex. Build up from there. You've been around for long enough and are enough of a seasoned veteran that I know it won't be a problem 

Phil


----------



## Brovius

Pyriel, I think you're forgetting that Grey Knights have their Storm Bolters mounted on their wrists so they can wield two weapons, or hold their Halberds in two hands, while still being able to shoot.

I'm pretty sure that was part of the fluff in the GKT entry in the leaked PT 'dex.

Anyways, being wrist-mounted, they don't swap ou the SB unless they are exchanging it for another ranged weapon. Essentially, we get TLC terminators who keep their SB, gain psychic powers and are troops choices, for the same points cost as Codex Marine TLC termies.


----------



## Vhalyar

Brovius said:


> gain psychic powers.


As a note, it's a psychic power. Holocaust got shuffled to the Paladins, so terminators only have the ability to boost their S by one and against some armies that's just going to backfire and get the justicar killed :laugh:


----------



## Mathai

Remember also that right now, Power Armor Grey Knights have the exact same amount of attacks as these 'new' ones will theoretically get. Except now with Power Weapons and one Force hit coming default. Sure the hit to Strength will sting at first, but if you miss it you still have the new Hammerhand to help ease the transition. they stand to kill more things in that first round now than they did before I think. (Not positive, havent done any math on it) So I for one will be happy to welcome these new Knights to my force devising schemes. All those extra points will be a warmly welcomed asset, especially when you consider that if all goes well they never even see close combat!


----------



## Brovius

All those extra points can go towards Dreadknights XD


----------



## Katie Drake

Pyriel said:


> Well nuff arguing, I understand and agree with your points and I dont hate the GK codex, I´m just sad it forces pretty much fixed builds (a little bit of everything) to stand a chance to compete and pretty much every other army can shoot them to hell by taking dirt cheap AP2-3 weapons.


So your argument is that you want to take a whole bunch of the same sorts of unit with the same role and are annoyed that it won't be successful?

That doesn't make sense. Successful lists are balanced lists that can do a bit of everything. If you're dead set on a theme that's absolutely fine but you can't really reasonably expect the list to work all that well in games, especially against balanced armies.


----------



## Pyriel

> The reason we pay more is because we keep the shooting because falchion only replace the sword not the SB.


Ah, that I didnt know. I saw other rumors elsewhere.
It brings the question of psycannons up since on one rumor site they are heavy 3 and the other heavy 4.

Yes this army will be fun to play and not the slightest OP as far as I see it.
Quite the opposite, GKs were underdogs before and will be so still.




> So your argument is that you want to take a whole bunch of the same sorts of unit with the same role and are annoyed that it won't be successful?
> 
> That doesn't make sense. Successful lists are balanced lists that can do a bit of everything. If you're dead set on a theme that's absolutely fine but you can't really reasonably expect the list to work all that well in games, especially against balanced armies.


You are right.
Lets look at the so called GK army "balance" then shall we.

The one illogical thing that remain is the rock-paper-scissor effect.
GKs can be geared out to handle, armour, hordes, deepstrikers and psychics (eldar).
This is all fun and well.

Now here is what´s bugging me. All other armies share these traits, you always have one or several weak points that you can build to face, SM can take thunderfires to face hordes, sternguards or hammernators to handle monstrous creatures, plasma to handle elites and libbies to handle psychers.

If you omitt one of the counters to a possible problem you will get rolled over in a tournament when facing that particular foe.

The thing is that with all armies you can include a little of this and a little of that to get a balanced whole that will always have something that can handle anything it faces.



How about GKs then?
With everything costing insane amount of points how can you do a well rounded tourney army that stands a chance of handling all comers?

So how does a well rounded all comers GK army look like then?

1:
-You need to be able to deepstrike to good effect vs those pesky run and shoot armies like tau. that is a 215p storm raven AND a beacon on a squad or two plus HQ with beacon, lots of points there.

2:
-You need to handle melee reasonably well, that means terminators, costly.
Especially with poor shooting saves and very costly Cc inv saves.

3:
-You need to handle deepstrikers, that is strike squads, 220p right there if you want them to last and do something besides just standing there.
Two if you want really good cover, thats 440p right there that cannot hold their own in either melee or shooting.

4:
-You need to face psychers, that means a dread or ven dread or a libby, that is another 115-200p that dies extremely fast so take two - even more points.

5:
-You need something that handles hordes so thats another 240p purifyer squad at least (I´m regularly facing 150+ ork armies, one purifier squad is nowhere near enough).

6:
-you need a HQ, thats some 200p right there if it is supposed to do anything useful.

7:
-You need to handle those tank line armies and the landraider assault armies, thats purgation squads and/or psycannons sprinkled all over the place (a good opponent wont let you deepstrike behind his demolishers and what not).

8:
-you need staying power vs plasma spam, plasma jump suits, long fangs etc. Thats a techmarine and/or libby with extra cover saves being available. Even more points goes here.
The frequent Dark Eldar armies with 10-16 dark lances is nothing to sneer at when you cant take any form of shooting.

9: 
-you need transports to get your squads where they need to be and/or protect them. Landraiders are very expensive.
Even 2-4 rhinos stack up points.


You see my point now?
It is impossible to build a 1700 - 1850p GK list that can take a little of everything like other armies can so any situation can be met to some degree.
Nobody takes an army to a tournament that is for example super good vs all but lacks any means to take out hordes or tanks, it will not do well.

So how on earth are a GK tournament army NOT a rock-paper-scissor army?
I fail to see that since you must leave gaping holes in any GK build you make because everything is to expensive and/or to fragile.
If you even manage to fit in everything for a truly well rounded GK army the units will be mediocre and you wont have A N Y backup. That one dreadnought dies on turn 1 and there went your whole psychic protection etc.

It is a fun codex imo but...this is also not what I call a balanced codex, not even a good one for that matter since by definition it cannot possibly create balanced GK armies in the 500-1850 point range. 

I would very much like to hear Katie Drakes view on this.

I hope that I at least provided some reasonable arguments for my point.


----------



## Katie Drake

Pyriel said:


> So how does a well rounded all comers GK army look like then?


A bit hard to say since the Codex isn't out. I think you'll get a proper answer on this about a month or two after the Grey Knights Dex has been in everyone's hands. I'll do my best to address your points until then.



> 1:
> -You need to be able to deepstrike to good effect vs those pesky run and shoot armies like tau. that is a 215p storm raven AND a beacon on a squad or two plus HQ with beacon, lots of points there.


Not necessarily. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see some lists with no Stormravens at all. You can get at the run away and shoot armies without Deep Strike, like by using Personal Teleporters, driving after them in transports (Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras), or just shooting them down as they try to flee (psycannons, lascannons, etc).



> 2:
> -You need to handle melee reasonably well, that means terminators, costly.
> Especially with poor shooting saves and very costly Cc inv saves.


Not necessarily. There are successful lists in the game right now that don't do melee combat at all, like Tau, some Razorspam lists, some Eldar lists (these are rare), and basically every Guard list. These lists tend to succeed because it's so difficult to get into combat with them in the first place.



> 3:
> -You need to handle deepstrikers, that is strike squads, 220p right there if you want them to last and do something besides just standing there.
> Two if you want really good cover, thats 440p right there that cannot hold their own in either melee or shooting.


Or you could take five man units in Rhinos with psycannons. They can still Warp Quake just fine from inside a transport and can fire out of the top hatch.



> 4:
> -You need to face psychers, that means a dread or ven dread or a libby, that is another 115-200p that dies extremely fast so take two - even more points.


I expect a lot of lists to run a Librarian for this exact reason. Since Librarians can choose their powers in such an awesome way it won't be hard or expensive to have a power for basically any situation (though I think most people will stop at 3).



> 5:
> -You need something that handles hordes so thats another 240p purifyer squad at least (I´m regularly facing 150+ ork armies, one purifier squad is nowhere near enough).


Or you can drive around in Rhinos and Razorbacks and set them on fire with incinerators. Seriously, incinerators will make an epic mess of Ork units. Also Grey Knight Strike Squads can do sickening amounts of damage to hordes with psybolt ammunition (assuming it isn't Rending like I keep hearing from other sources).



> 6:
> -you need a HQ, thats some 200p right there if it is supposed to do anything useful.


I think we talked about the Librarian already.



> 7:
> -You need to handle those tank line armies and the landraider assault armies, thats purgation squads and/or psycannons sprinkled all over the place (a good opponent wont let you deepstrike behind his demolishers and what not).


Yeah, psycannons, lascannons and melta weapons should make short work of tank armies fairly reliably.



> 8:
> -you need staying power vs plasma spam, plasma jump suits, long fangs etc. Thats a techmarine and/or libby with extra cover saves being available. Even more points goes here.
> The frequent Dark Eldar armies with 10-16 dark lances is nothing to sneer at when you cant take any form of shooting.


Who spams plasma these days aside from Tau? Seriously, just get in cover. It's insanely easy in this edition and you take half the losses you would otherwise. I really can't see anyone taking a Techmarine for the _chance_ of making one ruin in their deployment zone fortified. It's not worth the points, I don't think. Then there's simply getting inside a Rhino or something and you're largely immune to plasma and so on until the Rhino goes pop. Same with Dark Eldar, lance spam really isn't that effective - good DE armies need a mix of weapons.



> 9:
> -you need transports to get your squads where they need to be and/or protect them. Landraiders are very expensive.
> Even 2-4 rhinos stack up points.


So don't take Land Raiders? Rhinos aren't really that expensive even with 2-3 or 4. Other armies manage just fine, I don't see why Grey Knights will be completely crippled by this.




> You see my point now?


Frankly? No, I don't.



> It is impossible to build a 1700 - 1850p GK list that can take a little of everything like other armies can so any situation can be met to some degree.
> Nobody takes an army to a tournament that is for example super good vs all but lacks any means to take out hordes or tanks, it will not do well.


Well, this is one of the failings of tournaments that play less than 2,000 points. Yeah, Knights might struggle with some lists in smaller games (anything less than 1,850 basically), but not so much that they'll become nonviable. 



> I hope that I at least provided some reasonable arguments for my point.


You absolutely did and I'd like to thank you for presenting your points in such a concise and polite way. A lot of people get a little over-excited in these situations.


----------



## OldChiZOne

Pyriel said:


> Ah, that I didnt know. I saw other rumors elsewhere.
> It brings the question of psycannons up since on one rumor site they are heavy 3 and the other heavy 4.
> 
> Yes this army will be fun to play and not the slightest OP as far as I see it.
> Quite the opposite, GKs were underdogs before and will be so still.
> 
> 
> 
> You are right.
> Lets look at the so called GK army "balance" then shall we.
> 
> The one illogical thing that remain is the rock-paper-scissor effect.
> GKs can be geared out to handle, armour, hordes, deepstrikers and psychics (eldar).
> This is all fun and well.
> 
> Now here is what´s bugging me. All other armies share these traits, you always have one or several weak points that you can build to face, SM can take thunderfires to face hordes, sternguards or hammernators to handle monstrous creatures, plasma to handle elites and libbies to handle psychers.
> 
> If you omitt one of the counters to a possible problem you will get rolled over in a tournament when facing that particular foe.
> 
> The thing is that with all armies you can include a little of this and a little of that to get a balanced whole that will always have something that can handle anything it faces.
> 
> 
> 
> How about GKs then?
> With everything costing insane amount of points how can you do a well rounded tourney army that stands a chance of handling all comers?
> 
> So how does a well rounded all comers GK army look like then?
> 
> 1:
> -You need to be able to deepstrike to good effect vs those pesky run and shoot armies like tau. that is a 215p storm raven AND a beacon on a squad or two plus HQ with beacon, lots of points there.
> 
> 2:
> -You need to handle melee reasonably well, that means terminators, costly.
> Especially with poor shooting saves and very costly Cc inv saves.
> 
> 3:
> -You need to handle deepstrikers, that is strike squads, 220p right there if you want them to last and do something besides just standing there.
> Two if you want really good cover, thats 440p right there that cannot hold their own in either melee or shooting.
> 
> 4:
> -You need to face psychers, that means a dread or ven dread or a libby, that is another 115-200p that dies extremely fast so take two - even more points.
> 
> 5:
> -You need something that handles hordes so thats another 240p purifyer squad at least (I´m regularly facing 150+ ork armies, one purifier squad is nowhere near enough).
> 
> 6:
> -you need a HQ, thats some 200p right there if it is supposed to do anything useful.
> 
> 7:
> -You need to handle those tank line armies and the landraider assault armies, thats purgation squads and/or psycannons sprinkled all over the place (a good opponent wont let you deepstrike behind his demolishers and what not).
> 
> 8:
> -you need staying power vs plasma spam, plasma jump suits, long fangs etc. Thats a techmarine and/or libby with extra cover saves being available. Even more points goes here.
> The frequent Dark Eldar armies with 10-16 dark lances is nothing to sneer at when you cant take any form of shooting.
> 
> 9:
> -you need transports to get your squads where they need to be and/or protect them. Landraiders are very expensive.
> Even 2-4 rhinos stack up points.
> 
> 
> You see my point now?
> It is impossible to build a 1700 - 1850p GK list that can take a little of everything like other armies can so any situation can be met to some degree.
> Nobody takes an army to a tournament that is for example super good vs all but lacks any means to take out hordes or tanks, it will not do well.
> 
> So how on earth are a GK tournament army NOT a rock-paper-scissor army?
> I fail to see that since you must leave gaping holes in any GK build you make because everything is to expensive and/or to fragile.
> If you even manage to fit in everything for a truly well rounded GK army the units will be mediocre and you wont have A N Y backup. That one dreadnought dies on turn 1 and there went your whole psychic protection etc.
> 
> It is a fun codex imo but...this is also not what I call a balanced codex, not even a good one for that matter since by definition it cannot possibly create balanced GK armies in the 500-1850 point range.
> 
> I would very much like to hear Katie Drakes view on this.
> 
> I hope that I at least provided some reasonable arguments for my point.


You have come onto the "elite" problem. Because individual units take up so many points, those that you do take must be able to fulfill many roles. Purifiers are perfect example of this. For 280pts (A hefty price tag, no doubt) you can have 10x bodies, with 4x psycannons. With this squad you have anti horde capabilities, anti MEQ close combat ability (the same as terminators), and quality anti tank-ability. There are also some roles you can go without. From the ones you mentioned: Psychers and deep strikers really don't need specific counters. 

Also if you find yourself facing foot orks consistently, purifiers will your best friend as they will kill, on average 42% of those charging. Just watch him try to multi-charge you.

Lastly: If you use that same methodology for any army in the game, it will be almost completely impotent. "A little of this, a little of that" will make you mediocre against everything.

In my opinion, unless the final codex is completely different, or the wargear ends up being terribad, you'll see Grey Knights demolishing the current metagame of blue, red, and wolfy marines.

You'll see, you'll all see!

**Runs off raving like a mad lunatic**


----------



## Synack

I play 1650 points and I've had no problems making lists that I feel will be competitive with the leaked codex. If you want to take all the big boy SCs, and give everyone all the toys, then yes, it will be expensive.

I'm able to fit crowe, 2x PAGK squads + rhinos and psycannons, 1x purifier squad with incins and halbreds, 2 dredknights and a landraider and the vindicare in 1650 points.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Pyriel
*Has anyone looked at the fact that Paladins can be bought as Individuals,times that many individuals by Holacaust???thunder hammers+deep strike??? 
Would make for a cool Predator themed list.Draigo and 31 basic Paladins at 2000pts.31 large blast templates a turn and it would waste/make enemy firepower redundant.Plus easy cover saves from your own guys*

I like Your argument,its good to start working on debaseing our weekness.I'm contemplateing RazorBack spam behind,3xLandraider rush termies,3xStormRaven rush termies.Reliable High speed armour is definitly a strength.I'm woundering what Razorback options we'll get to help supliment our "splintered" heavy weapons options?(TL.PC/ASS.Can/TL.MM?)
Actually you can't argue too much untill we have confirmed the DreadKnights heavy armourment and ranges,if it turns out it can hurl 6xS8 rending shots down range it'll become staple.Longfangs exsist so it could happen,though I dought it.I'd imagion that Psybolts would also be in the Vehical Armoury,that would make Hurrricane Bolters useful,lots of little things add up and this Codex will be all about force multiplyers,movement,execution.

*Has anyone looked at the fact that Paladins can be bought as Individuals,times that many individuals by Holacaust???thunder hammers+deep strike??? 
Would make for a cool Predator themed list.Draigo and 31 basic Paladins at 2000pts.31 large blast templates a turn and it would waste/make enemy firepower redundant.Plus easy cover saves from your own guys*


----------



## Scorpio

@Lucian Kain: Sounds awesome, but even if Draigo allows Pally's to be troops, aren't they still limited to the 6 slots allocated to troops? Though this would definitely be an interesting to use in apocalypse.....


----------



## ETP

scorpio is right, 6 max units of paladins.


----------



## Lesiu

Lucian Kain said:


> *Has anyone looked at the fact that Paladins can be bought as Individuals,times that many individuals by Holacaust???thunder hammers+deep strike???
> Would make for a cool Predator themed list.Draigo and 31 basic Paladins at 2000pts.31 large blast templates a turn and it would waste/make enemy firepower redundant.Plus easy cover saves from your own guys*


I don't know if you noticed, but there is something called Force Organization Chart, ever heard of it?  So you can take 3 single guys in elites, 6 in troops with Draigo.

*Pyriel* you can run Termie list and I think it will be competitive. Want an example? Lets say 1500 points:
Termie squad + psycannon (MC if possible in final codex) + 2-3 falchions = around 250 points x4
Libby + might & quicksilver (cc boost) + shrouding (your SS against shooting) + sanctuary (charge might not reach you) + warp rift (just in case) = 175?
Dreadknight + H. psycannon = ~170-180

That means you have around 150 points left, you can get an assasin or cut few upgrades and squeze in another dreadknight with cannon. You have a lot of 2+ guys on the table, some decent fire power to pop at least all the transports and with libby powers you can be a real threat in CC too.


----------



## Alessander

This has nothing to do with the rules, just a little FYI for anyone bored tonight.

I'm a graphic designer, and the first thing I did when I got the leaked PDF is tear it apart and look at the design. Turn the contrast way up and you'll reveal: 

there a few more pics where you think blank spots are
all the stats in the main part of the book are in a grey box
there is a border illustration along the top edge of each page
the pages are in the PDF in the wrong order (the henchmen and assassin should come first, then the GKs, and the librarian spells are on the same spread as the librarian).

I noticed that the actual scans of each page are slightly distorted, in a way that's often an indicator of using flatbed scanner and the items shift slightly mid-scan (often due holding a bound book flat against the glass). So here's how I think we got this leak:

Graphic Designers often print out hard copies of their work at multiple stages of the layout process to see how it looks. The GW designer printed out their current work to either review it themselves or as a progress report for a boss (I think they may have stapled or bound the left edge of the printout to see how it looks with facing pages). Someone must have grabbed this copy and hastily scanned each page on a flatbed scanner, or ran it through an office photocopier (and scanned the copies later at home). I think it's probably the latter, since it does look like a scan-of-a-copy due to the Moiré patterns on some of the solid grey tones. They collated the scans into a PDF and uploaded it online, and the rest is history.

This doesn't really effect us much, but I'm betting you the photocopiers in GW's design department are going to have a padlock on them from now on :biggrin:


----------



## Ninja D

Coyote77 said:


> Why not do both ?


No need to get my pants all messy. I just want to see my opponent crap in theirs when I unload a fusillade of psycannons. I might even be nice enough to bring them a change of underwear so they don't embarrass themselves too much.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Scorpio said:


> @Lucian Kain: Sounds awesome, but even if Draigo allows Pally's to be troops, aren't they still limited to the 6 slots allocated to troops? Though this would definitely be an interesting to use in apocalypse.....


AAH Shit not thinking still:headbutt:


----------



## Ninja D

boreas said:


> ...-5 GKT (NFS) vs 5 Ass-term (3 TH&SS+2 TLC). WITH hammerhand!...
> 
> 
> Phil


Can't open that economy sized jar of whoop-ass? Having trouble bench pressing your dedicated transport? Tired of being called a 499 pound weakling?

Your worries are over! With Hammerhand you'll be able open jars of whoop-ass, bench press Land Raiders AND impress all the Sisters of Battle. Get your psychic boost today!

NOW! With HAMMERHAND!

(Prices and conditions may vary, see your Librarian for details)


----------



## oiad

...P.S: Minor side-effects may include loss of sanity, cranial implosions and/or possession by a malevolent warp-entity.


----------



## callred

callred said:


> This has nothing to do with the rules, just a little FYI for anyone bored tonight.
> 
> I'm a graphic designer, and the first thing I did when I got the leaked PDF is tear it apart and look at the design. Turn the contrast way up and you'll reveal:
> 
> * there a few more pics where you think blank spots are
> * all the stats in the main part of the book are in a grey box
> * there is a border illustration along the top edge of each page
> * the pages are in the PDF in the wrong order (the henchmen and assassin should come first, then the GKs, and the librarian spells are on the same spread as the librarian).
> 
> 
> I noticed that the actual scans of each page are slightly distorted, in a way that's often an indicator of using flatbed scanner and the items shift slightly mid-scan (often due holding a bound book flat against the glass). So here's how I think we got this leak:
> 
> Graphic Designers often print out hard copies of their work at multiple stages of the layout process to see how it looks. The GW designer printed out their current work to either review it themselves or as a progress report for a boss (I think they may have stapled or bound the left edge of the printout to see how it looks with facing pages). Someone must have grabbed this copy and hastily scanned each page on a flatbed scanner, or ran it through an office photocopier (and scanned the copies later at home). I think it's probably the latter, since it does look like a scan-of-a-copy due to the Moiré patterns on some of the solid grey tones. They collated the scans into a PDF and uploaded it online, and the rest is history.
> 
> This doesn't really effect us much, but I'm betting you the photocopiers in GW's design department are going to have a padlock on them from now on


interesting theory and nice post:grin:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Wow, some many people complaining about OP, shitty codex etc...
I did not know so many of you has gotten their hands on the GK codex.

This happens with every dex, people cry OP all the time or that the dex sucks before it is even released. I remember all this shit with the Tyranid dex and look how that turned out :crazy:

Just wait a week or two for when people start getting their hands on the dex. It's not long now.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Can hammerhand be cast more than one time over the same unit?


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> Wow, some many people complaining about OP, shitty codex etc...


By the way, can you give us a link to the person who said the document was from 2009? You skipped over the request last time


----------



## Winterous

Brother Siegfrid said:


> Can hammerhand be cast more than one time over the same unit?


I'm sorry, this question didn't make sense.


----------



## timsmith

Synack said:


> I play 1650 points and I've had no problems making lists that I feel will be competitive with the leaked codex. If you want to take all the big boy SCs, and give everyone all the toys, then yes, it will be expensive.
> 
> I'm able to fit crowe, 2x PAGK squads + rhinos and psycannons, 1x purifier squad with incins and halbreds, 2 dredknights and a landraider and the vindicare in 1650 points.


Just a point 
I dont know if this has been addressed but i dont believe Crowe is an IC which really is a problem. He has no where to go in the list and also his equipment only refrences himself (daemon sword drawbacks) and not the unit he is with which i believe it would if he was an IC. 

Could someone please shead some light? 

If he isn's an IC then i cant see him been taken all that often, you may aswel take a GM and use the stratergy to make Purifiers scoring.


And Hammerhand is stackable!I.E libby can cast it on attached unit then they can use their own.


----------



## Winterous

timsmith said:


> JIf he isn's an IC then i cant see him been taken all that often, you may aswel take a GM and use the stratergy to make Purifiers scoring.


That's not why you'd take him.
You'd take him so you can have Purifiers as troops, Purifiers are amazingly powerful for their cost.


----------



## GrizBe

Its kinda stupid that so many people are going all 'mathhammer' and ranty over an unfinished, old playtesting codex and taking it as gospel when we don't know the full extent of alot of the rules, or what the wargear options do for alot of it. 

You can't say what an army will be like from something thats a work in progress. Raving like this just shows how silly some people are.


----------



## Vhalyar

Winterous said:


> I'm sorry, this question didn't make sense.


He's asking if hammerhand can be used multiple times (to get further S boosts I imagine) and the answer is no. Hammerhand doesn't stack with itself, but it does work with Might of Titan.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Winterous said:


> I'm sorry, this question didn't make sense.


Why? 

That's what I mean:



timsmith said:


> And Hammerhand is stackable!I.E libby can cast it on attached unit then they can use their own.


----------



## Winterous

Oh, interpretation fail on my behalf.
Replacing 'over' with 'on' would have made more sense, just fyi.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Winterous said:


> Oh, interpretation fail on my behalf.
> Replacing 'over' with 'on' would have made more sense, just fyi.


I suspected "on" would be better than "over", but I didn't have the time to edit ^_^ sorry


----------



## timsmith

Winterous said:


> That's not why you'd take him.
> You'd take him so you can have Purifiers as troops, Purifiers are amazingly powerful for their cost.


yes but your wasting XXX amount of points to make them scoring...? and then he cant ride round with them. he's either on foot, or in a transport veh all by himself and he's not that powerful and as the list i was quoting had 2 troops already a GM would be better.


----------



## coke123

timsmith said:


> Just a point
> I dont know if this has been addressed but i dont believe Crowe is an IC which really is a problem. He has no where to go in the list and also his equipment only refrences himself (daemon sword drawbacks) and not the unit he is with which i believe it would if he was an IC.
> 
> Could someone please shead some light?
> 
> If he isn's an IC then i cant see him been taken all that often, you may aswel take a GM and use the stratergy to make Purifiers scoring.
> 
> 
> And Hammerhand is stackable!I.E libby can cast it on attached unit then they can use their own.


In the leak, none of the character choices actually state that they're ICs- it just labels them as characters. Gotta remember that this is probably an early playtest copy, so they probably weren't fussed about nitpicking over semantics at the point when they created this document. Either that, or no GK characters can join units; bar Mordrack and his Ghost peeps.


----------



## timsmith

coke123 said:


> In the leak, none of the character choices actually state that they're ICs- it just labels them as characters. Gotta remember that this is probably an early playtest copy, so they probably weren't fussed about nitpicking over semantics at the point when they created this document. Either that, or no GK characters can join units; bar Mordrack and his Ghost peeps.



Actually they all do except Crowe and Mordrak. even the inquisitors. It maybe an oversight but then again look at death company Tyco....Fail. I hope he does have IC status tho as he will be soooo much more useful!!


----------



## oiad

Indeed, using the *ahem* work that is available to us it is listed that every HQ model has IC status except both Mordrak (who, as we know has his own special retinue) and yes... Garran Crowe. This makes him a near-useless pointsink - opponents can either choose to wipe him out in a single turn or ignore him completely. I wouldn't put it past a large unit of Firewarriors being able to wipe him out on the charge.

If these rules are official then I'm hoping the characters were far from being the finalised. Otherwise he's a huge disappointment - being both a waste of a character and page space.


----------



## Synack

I actually never noticed the lack of IC for Crowe. I doubt it will stay like that, he won't be able to survive by himself, unlike say someone like Mephiston, who is quite happy to run around by himself.


----------



## Winterous

timsmith said:


> yes but your wasting XXX amount of points to make them scoring...? and then he cant ride round with them. he's either on foot, or in a transport veh all by himself and he's not that powerful and as the list i was quoting had 2 troops already a GM would be better.


It's not to make them Scoring, it's to make them NOT an Elites choice, meaning you can use them for other things.

Also that GM thing could be used for a different rule if you aren't using it to make things Scoring.



Synack said:


> unlike say someone like Mephiston, who is quite happy to run around by himself.


Without an Invulnerable save :laugh:
Seriously, how is anyone that powerful not given a REFRACTOR field?
IG Officers have them, surely the chief Librarian deserves one.


----------



## Frank Fugger

I don't think Brotherhood Champions as a whole are much use in their current incarnation, special character or no special character. Although despite being slightly better than an ordinary Champeen Of Fail Crowe costs the same, which is odd, and he also lets you take souped-up no-Teleporting Strike Squads instead of.... Strike Squads.


----------



## coke123

timsmith said:


> Actually they all do except Crowe and Mordrak. even the inquisitors. It maybe an oversight but then again look at death company Tyco....Fail. I hope he does have IC status tho as he will be soooo much more useful!!





oiad said:


> Indeed, using the *ahem* work that is available to us it is listed that every HQ model has IC status except both Mordrak (who, as we know has his own special retinue) and yes... Garran Crowe. This makes him a near-useless pointsink - opponents can either choose to wipe him out in a single turn or ignore him completely. I wouldn't put it past a large unit of Firewarriors being able to wipe him out on the charge.
> 
> If these rules are official then I'm hoping the characters were far from being the finalised. Otherwise he's a huge disappointment - being both a waste of a character and page space.


God, I must be going blind. When I checked it earlier I could have sworn i didn't see IC in the special rules for the others...



Synack said:


> I actually never noticed the lack of IC for Crowe. I doubt it will stay like that, he won't be able to survive by himself, unlike say someone like Mephiston, who is quite happy to run around by himself.


God I hope Crowe has IC status... I was thinking of putting him in a terminator/paladin unit to effectively grant them access to cleansing flame...awesome anti-tarpit defense for those expensive combat units.

Whilst we're on Crowe... am I reading the Blade of Antwyr correctly? because I'm seeing that he grants FC and rerolls to hit for any unit charging him... which is only going to be compounded if he can't join a rock bodyguard.


----------



## Synack

Thats just it, his abilities scream for him to be joined onto a unit, so I think it's a mistake that he doesn't have IC.


----------



## equitypetey

anyone notice the GW email today "What's happening at your local Hobby Centre this March" has "2nd April: Realm of Battle Workshop" isn't that meant to be the release date for gk???


----------



## Winterous

equitypetey said:


> anyone notice the GW email today "What's happening at your local Hobby Centre this March" has "2nd April: Realm of Battle Workshop" isn't that meant to be the release date for gk???


LOCAL hobby centre.
That's what's happening at YOUR GW, not every one of them.
They probably just forgot to mention it in there.


----------



## Madcellist

Doesn't it seem questionable that GW would take away the storm shields from terminators since people already HAVE models with storm shields and hammers?

That's something that I thought they avoided doing -- invalidating models that we already might have. People are likely to get angry about that.

I realize that all the leaked stuff we have seen or been told omits the SS but that strikes me as odd.


-eva


----------



## Winterous

Madcellist said:


> Doesn't it seem questionable that GW would take away the storm shields from terminators since people already HAVE models with storm shields and hammers?
> 
> That's something that I thought they avoided doing -- invalidating models that we already might have. People are likely to get angry about that.
> 
> I realize that all the leaked stuff we have seen or been told omits the SS but that strikes me as odd.


Did anyone REALLY use TH/SS Grey Knight Terminators?
I mean, their Storm Shields only gave them a 4+ Invulnerable IN CLOSE COMBAT, that's pretty much worthless.

Also they've done it a lot, like when they cut out Squats.

What's that customer? Your whole army just became invalid?
That's right, cry it all out, have a good cry.
Your tears are delicious, they taste like money.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> By the way, can you give us a link to the person who said the document was from 2009? You skipped over the request last time


This is what I wrote :


> Oh yeah, on the latest Eternal Warriors it seems one guy dug around the so called GK leak and it seems the PDF was created in 2009, so it's a VERY early play test version.


So it was said on the latest Eternal Warriors podcast, I dont remember at what minute or whatever or who said it, so just listen to the whole thing and then email the guy


----------



## bhsman

Winterous said:


> Did anyone REALLY use TH/SS Grey Knight Terminators?
> I mean, their Storm Shields only gave them a 4+ Invulnerable IN CLOSE COMBAT, that's pretty much worthless.


I think you forget the other half of the equation: having S8 (not to mention the ability to make MCs go _last_ in combat, no just I1) to deal with armor and to wound the bigger stuff on 2's.

Not to mention the 4+ came in handy every once in awhile.



> Also they've done it a lot, like when they cut out Squats.
> 
> What's that customer? Your whole army just became invalid?
> That's right, cry it all out, have a good cry.
> Your tears are delicious, they taste like money.


So what you're saying is the sole exception to the rule was something the company did more than two decades ago to an army that sold poorly? Good thing we've moved past that. :so_happy:


----------



## Irbian

Wait, the old SS werent the bad ones?


----------



## bhsman

If by bad ones you mean a 4+ only in close combat and could only be used once against an attack from a model in b2b? Then yes.


----------



## Irbian

bhsman said:


> If by bad ones you mean a 4+ only in close combat and could only be used once against an attack from a model in b2b? Then yes.


exactly that  But is shorter to call them "bad storm shields" or "bss"


----------



## Champion Alaric

The storm shields werent super bad, In a supplemented Vulkan salamander army the TH got a re roll at least, and 4++ beats 5++ every time..


----------



## Pyriel

> Who spams plasma these days aside from Tau? Seriously, just get in cover. It's insanely easy in this edition and you take half the losses you would otherwise. I really can't see anyone taking a Techmarine for the chance of making one ruin in their deployment zone fortified. It's not worth the points, I don't think. Then there's simply getting inside a Rhino or something and you're largely immune to plasma and so on until the Rhino goes pop. Same with Dark Eldar, lance spam really isn't that effective - good DE armies need a mix of weapons.


GK will shift meta game.
Seeing more vulnerable elite armies on the table will bring more plasma to the fore.



> Not necessarily. There are successful lists in the game right now that don't do melee combat at all, like Tau, some Razorspam lists, some Eldar lists (these are rare), and basically every Guard list. These lists tend to succeed because it's so difficult to get into combat with them in the first place.


The important thing is that those armies CAN handle opponents by simply playing to their strenghts, shooting. They have the statline, wargear and cheapness to be able to rely on one aspect (shooting) alone.
To compare that with a GK army is far from accurate. 

Anyhow, arguing over unit A beats unit B etc is pointless (but fun). The issue is that you cannot afford to run a razorback spam or a rhino horde that allows for attrition.
Tau and IG will laugh in your face when you come barging with 4 rhinos when they already have no problem handling SM armies that use 6 rhinos.



> You absolutely did and I'd like to thank you for presenting your points in such a concise and polite way. A lot of people get a little over-excited in these situations.


Thank you



> I play 1650 points and I've had no problems making lists that I feel will be competitive with the leaked codex. If you want to take all the big boy SCs, and give everyone all the toys, then yes, it will be expensive.
> 
> I'm able to fit crowe, 2x PAGK squads + rhinos and psycannons, 1x purifier squad with incins and halbreds, 2 dredknights and a landraider and the vindicare in 1650 points.


I must say you do have a good point, that is a pretty solid list.

Of course it will be totally annihilated by Tau, dark eldar and IG since none of the vehicles will survive beyond turn 1 since it doesnt include that little bit of everything I was talking about (like teleport in and prevent 1-2 turns of shooting) but still.



> This happens with every dex, people cry OP all the time or that the dex sucks before it is even released. I remember all this shit with the Tyranid dex and look how that turned out


The tyranids are crap, what´s the point?



> Its kinda stupid that so many people are going all 'mathhammer' and ranty over an unfinished, old playtesting codex and taking it as gospel when we don't know the full extent of alot of the rules, or what the wargear options do for alot of it.
> 
> You can't say what an army will be like from something thats a work in progress. Raving like this just shows how silly some people are.
> Reply With Quote


So debating and talking about things that arent set in stone is silly?

Gee I wonder what would happen if those cave men didnt communicate things through with each others regarding that first wheel or flint axe someone thought about.
How silly.


----------



## GrizBe

Well I'm forming the opinion that Pyriel is a troll after his Nid's statement... They're awesome if you know what your doing with them.


----------



## Pyriel

That or I have very little experience facing good nid players but dont let different options stand in the way for you thinking I´m a troll.


----------



## Mathai

GrizBe said:


> Well I'm forming the opinion that Pyriel is a troll after his Nid's statement... They're awesome if you know what your doing with them.




Nah, he's just expressing his opinion. Besides, Trolls dont have spelling anywhere near as good as his.


----------



## GrizBe

Pyriel said:


> That or I have very little experience facing good nid players but dont let different options stand in the way for you thinking I´m a troll.


Actually i'm going by the fact of your low post count, every post you've ever made has been bitching about something, the fact your ranting about something as if its gospel when it hasn't even been released yet, and despite claiming to be a fan of the game you clearly know nothing about it when your slagging off armies as crap when they aren't. 

Thats why i'm inclined to believe your a troll.


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## Pyriel

> Actually i'm going by the fact of your low post count, every post you've ever made has been bitching about something, the fact your ranting about something as if its gospel when it hasn't even been released yet, and despite claiming to be a fan of the game you clearly know nothing about it when your slagging off armies as crap when they aren't.
> 
> Thats why i'm inclined to believe your a troll.


So I know little about nids and that makes me a total noob about the rest of the hobby? How old are you again?
Or are you some sort of an unemployed individual with so much time on your hands (or so few other interests) that you are the expert on each and every single race in this hobby?

I´m sorry that I cannot post thousands of entries on all the forums I am on.
This one seemed to have the best GK info, ergo I barged in with some opinions AND reasons for said opinions, something you seem to "forget" to mention in your rants about me being a troll.

As for bitching I see you are doing quite well in that regard yourself and as for your personal "opinion" that I am a troll you are just as entitled to have it that I am in my opinion about you being a bitching bully with low self esteem.

You see, opinions cut both ways.


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## bhsman

Don't worry, Pyriel isn't a troll. He has a good post history on Dakka of equally bad posts. 

EDIT: I should say both that while the above is sarcasm, you do tend to make very grasping posts at times, Pyriel, and making a lot of assumptions about a codex that 1) We don't have complete information about its rules; 2) We don't know what the metal blisters will be out at release, which can strongly influence the prevalence of certain lists (see Wracks and Dark Eldar); and 3) Most of all, the codex hasn't been out for half a year to allow us time to determine the army's true strengths, weaknesses, etc. That shouldn't stop you from speculating, but I'd avoid any predictions about how the meta will shift, etc.


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## Pyriel

Hehe.

Plus I tend to lighten up quite a bit when someone calls me a troll.


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## Irbian

Hey people, do you know who cares about your discussion? "Nobody". "Nobody" likes it, so go tell "Nobody" your opinions 

More serious, please, if you have some personal argue please, leave it to pm, Im more interested in my army, thats why Im here by the way 

Ontopic: Next newsletter content? Could we see some new miniatures?


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## Doelago

Ok, I have no idea if this has already been posted and declared as false or anything, as I dont follow this thread, just pop in randomly, but I guess I would still post it...


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## Pyriel

I have a question. Does anyone know anything about GW releasing some new miniatures for all those awesome =I= henchmen choices for the upcoming GK codex?

All I know is that plastic PAGK, GKT and a dreadknights will be made but nothing about new henchmen.


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## GrizBe

Ohh.. he's from Dakka... that explains alot...


@Doelago: Thats been floating around for ages. Its from a fan-dex, its not real.


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## Doelago

GrizBe said:


> @Doelago: Thats been floating around for ages. Its from a fan-dex, its not real.


Aah, ok, thanks for clearing it out for me. k:


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## OldChiZOne

Pyriel said:


> GK will shift meta game.
> Seeing more vulnerable elite armies on the table will bring more plasma to the fore.
> 
> 
> The important thing is that those armies CAN handle opponents by simply playing to their strenghts, shooting. They have the statline, wargear and cheapness to be able to rely on one aspect (shooting) alone.
> To compare that with a GK army is far from accurate.
> 
> Anyhow, arguing over unit A beats unit B etc is pointless (but fun). The issue is that you cannot afford to run a razorback spam or a rhino horde that allows for attrition.
> Tau and IG will laugh in your face when you come barging with 4 rhinos when they already have no problem handling SM armies that use 6 rhinos.
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> I must say you do have a good point, that is a pretty solid list.
> 
> Of course it will be totally annihilated by Tau, dark eldar and IG since none of the vehicles will survive beyond turn 1 since it doesnt include that little bit of everything I was talking about (like teleport in and prevent 1-2 turns of shooting) but still.
> 
> 
> The tyranids are crap, what´s the point?
> 
> 
> So debating and talking about things that arent set in stone is silly?
> 
> Gee I wonder what would happen if those cave men didnt communicate things through with each others regarding that first wheel or flint axe someone thought about.
> How silly.


Your posts are essentially about how weak Grey Knights will be, against a variety of opponents. But then you state that they will change the meta game. If they are already so non-lethal, and weak as you say they are, why would the metagame change in the first place?

The metagame will only change, if the changes will adequately counter other types of armies and that these changes are needed in order to not insta-lose against Grey Knights. In most space marine armies, taking plasma means either less missile launchers or less melta guns. Both of these, are really the only way space marines have any shot at competing with mechanized lists, especially imperial guard. Also what happens once you've exchanged all that melta for plasma, and long time GK players roll up with their old 3x LR armies using the new rules? Grey Knights will change the game in deeper ways then that.

-OCZO


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## MadCowCrazy

Ep 11, Eternal Warriors. At 56min in he says it was made in Nov 2009.
Just checked it. How he got that date he did not say.


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## Resv

Just to sort out a point, Paladins can combat squad according to the draft PDF. With Drago that means you could cast possibly 12 holocaust powers a turn.

Lets talk about Crowe for a moment. I agree that he is a little...underwhelming but he is by no means a waste of points. He unlocks one of the better units in the draft codex as troops. I know you could take a GM and get the same effect however this allows you to take more than 3 units and you don't have to spend even more points on two troop units to have a legal list and frees up the elite slots (I'm looking at you assassins). His cost really isn't that bad being less than a Grand Master, though he lacks the utility. 

What he does get is the Brotherhood champion abilities which are really nothing to sneeze at. Rending on any to wound roll of 4+ with these abilities is pretty dangerous when you break it down. Assaulting units do get Furious Charge and re-rolls to hit against him however said unit needs to assault him first. Being that he is only one guy he is going to be easy to hide and is more likely to be shot down than engaged in CC. Not to mention, he gets Cleansing Flame which is a brilliant power. My friend and I tested out Crowe against a Guard Blob and he managed to take the whole platoon. Reason being he was just one guy and my buddy couldn't really get that many models into play against him (models that can attack have to be within 2 inches of the actual combat, very hard to do against one guy) but Crowe was able to attack the whole unit through Cleansing Flame and sit and re-roll all of his saves. With his weapon skill so high, not many attacks managed to get through though he did take a wound. When the Commissar went down and the Platoon broke Crowe chased them down with his high initiative. I am NOT SAYING THIS WILL ALWAYS BE THE OUTCOME but it was pretty amazing to watch and didn't take that many turns.

Moral of the story: Shoot him down. He isn't the best character in the draft PDF but he isn't complete trash even when lacking IC. He is a nasty surprise and makes an excellent counter charge unit should you decide to bring him along.


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## Frank Fugger

Pyriel said:


> GK will shift meta game.
> Seeing more vulnerable elite armies on the table will bring more plasma to the fore.



Certain websites on the inter-tubes have been encouraging the use of Plasma since the Space Wolves Codex came out, and even if you're not a big believer in it (like me) it's still worth keeping one or two guns, or their equivalent, in an army list just in case. I don't think there really is a 'meta-game' as such and so therefore I'm not totally on board with the idea that GK will cause some sort of ruction, but people who are building their armies to cope with the influx of vehicles will likely have to readjust them if, as everyone is expecting, the GK book turns out to be one of these tiny MEQ armies that work oh so well.

Shooty armies tend to succeed when the list is built so that it's difficult to get into close combat with the shooty elements; the ones built around killing you before you come close tend to be gunlines, and gunlines are bad.

EDIT: I don't think either scenario will be applicable to Grey Knights. I don't want to charge I5 Marines with power weapons. Noise Marines are bad enough.


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## bhsman

I think it's far too early to crap all over Crowe as well, especially if you can cast Cleansing Flame twice (Crowe's power + the squad of Purifiers he'd be attached to). You almost _want_ the other unit to charge, because then you can clean up during your turn and go from there, especially if the squad he's attached to is using halberds.

Not to mention his squad is just as likely to get the charge off as well, especially when you factor in Stormravens and the Land Raider.


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## oiad

As he is now, he can't attach/join to another squad - no IC status. Also I think you need to reread the Blade of Antwyr - FC and re-rolls to wound are given to the enemy, not Crowe. He doesn't seem so good now huh?


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## redemptionlife

On properties of the pdf it says it was created on 10/1/11 don't know where they got the idea of 2009 from *shrug*


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## coke123

Pyriel said:


> I have a question. Does anyone know anything about GW releasing some new miniatures for all those awesome =I= henchmen choices for the upcoming GK codex?
> 
> All I know is that plastic PAGK, GKT and a dreadknights will be made but nothing about new henchmen.


It probably doesn't mean much, but yesterday when I started asking the manager at my local GW about possible Jokaero models he turned oddly silent...



redemptionlife said:


> On properties of the pdf it says it was created on 10/1/11 don't know where they got the idea of 2009 from *shrug*


We've been though this- that date is simply when the pdf was created. Since this document is clearly scanned, that date is simply when whoever grabbed it and quickly threw it under the scanner. It could've been lying around as a hard copy for years.


----------



## Resv

Again, with Crowe, lacking IC isn't as bad as it could be and it actually helps the whole "enemy units assaulting him get FC" issue. Being one guy he is going to be easy to hide or just move out of the way, and in all honesty he is more likely to be shot down than killed in CC. 

I've been play testing him against a variety of opponents and all in all he isn't that bad. He isn't the best Character in the codex, but he isn't complete crap. He is a cheap(ish) character who you expect is going to die, but die very well. Every time I get him into combat with an enemy IC I want to yell MORTAL COMBAT, but that would get me kicked out of my FLGS probably. If you check out the Brotherhood Champion abilities and then add a rending him on any to wound roll of a 4+ and it isn't that bad. Even his finishing move is pretty hilarious as his Weapon Skill is so high he has a pretty good chance of hitting with it. I used it to take out Mephiston(managed to beat his psychic hood roll) and Sanguinator (Since the HS entry just says "removed as casualties" rather than "killed instantly") so far. EXTREMELY funny every time it worked and only a little disappointing when it didn't. 

Crowe isn't as bad as you might think, he isn't as great or as useful as other options but he isn't bad. As a cheap HQ that allows me to take awesome troops, I think he is kinda fun. Since I know it is going to be brought up again, I know that GMs can make Purifier Squads scoring, that isn't the issue. The issue is that in addition to any Purifier Squads you have to take two troops choices, and even then there is a chance that only one of the Purifier Squad will end up scoring. Gray Knights are going to expensive and points are going to be at a premium.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Resv said:


> Just to sort out a point, Paladins can combat squad according to the draft PDF. With Drago that means you could cast possibly 12 holocaust powers a turn.


And for the cheap cheap base cost of 3575 points before upgrades! Heck, add in 3 Dreadknights for 3 more Holocausts and a few upgrades to round it to a nice even 4000 points.


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## Resv

RedemptionNL said:


> And for the cheap cheap base cost of 3575 points before upgrades! Heck, add in 3 Dreadknights for 3 more Holocausts and a few upgrades to round it to a nice even 4000 points.


Yeah but who cares about points, besides don't most people play at 4000 points now anyway? I'm sure GW would love it if we did!


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## oiad

Resv said:


> Again, with Crowe, lacking IC isn't as bad as it could be and it actually helps the whole "enemy units assaulting him get FC" issue. Being one guy he is going to be easy to hide or just move out of the way, and in all honesty he is more likely to be shot down than killed in CC.
> 
> I've been play testing him against a variety of opponents and all in all he isn't that bad. He isn't the best Character in the codex, but he isn't complete crap. He is a cheap(ish) character who you expect is going to die, but die very well. Every time I get him into combat with an enemy IC I want to yell MORTAL COMBAT, but that would get me kicked out of my FLGS probably. If you check out the Brotherhood Champion abilities and then add a rending him on any to wound roll of a 4+ and it isn't that bad. Even his finishing move is pretty hilarious as his Weapon Skill is so high he has a pretty good chance of hitting with it. I used it to take out Mephiston(managed to beat his psychic hood roll) and Sanguinator (Since the HS entry just says "removed as casualties" rather than "killed instantly") so far. EXTREMELY funny every time it worked and only a little disappointing when it didn't.
> 
> Crowe isn't as bad as you might think, he isn't as great or as useful as other options but he isn't bad. As a cheap HQ that allows me to take awesome troops, I think he is kinda fun. Since I know it is going to be brought up again, I know that GMs can make Purifier Squads scoring, that isn't the issue. The issue is that in addition to any Purifier Squads you have to take two troops choices, and even then there is a chance that only one of the Purifier Squad will end up scoring. Gray Knights are going to expensive and points are going to be at a premium.


You'll surprise people in the pre-codex stages with rules they're unaware of but I wouldn't expect to get away with it too long after the codex is released - if the rules stay the same. Purifiers as troops is the only plus in many respects. I for one wouldn't want to rely purely on Grand Strategy. But most of the other things he lists the vanilla Bro-Champ can do just as good for less.


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## Winterous

Resv said:


> Even his finishing move is pretty hilarious as his Weapon Skill is so high he has a pretty good chance of hitting with it.


I like to imagine that power in an interesting way.
Instead of just "SUPER AWESOME STAB!", I picture it more like this:

Brotherhood Champion is fighting with X Y or Z.
BC gets killed, oh no!
BC, with his final breath, draws heavily on the infinite power of the Warp, enough to destroy his mind in seconds.
BC then does one of several things with that huge amount of power.
1. Open a small vortex, sucking both him and his foe into the Warp.
2. Overcharge his Force weapon to an amazing extent, obliterating both his and his foe's bodies utterly, leaving no trace of either.
3. Clutch his body to the enemy, and cause a psychic detonation of amazing power, searing both of them into non-existence.


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## Akhara'Keth

Winterous said:


> I like to imagine that power in an interesting way.
> Instead of just "SUPER AWESOME STAB!", I picture it more like this:
> 
> Brotherhood Champion is fighting with X Y or Z.
> BC gets killed, oh no!
> BC, with his final breath, draws heavily on the infinite power of the Warp, enough to destroy his mind in seconds.
> BC then does one of several things with that huge amount of power.
> 1. Open a small vortex, sucking both him and his foe into the Warp.
> 2. Overcharge his Force weapon to an amazing extent, obliterating both his and his foe's bodies utterly, leaving no trace of either.
> 3. Clutch his body to the enemy, and cause a psychic detonation of amazing power, searing both of them into non-existence.


Sounds freaking awesome. Like a scene from a movie when he kills the bad guy before he dies.


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## Resv

oiad said:


> You'll surprise people in the pre-codex stages with rules they're unaware of but I wouldn't expect to get away with it too long after the codex is released - if the rules stay the same. Purifiers as troops is the only plus in many respects. I for one wouldn't want to rely purely on Grand Strategy. But most of the other things he lists the vanilla Bro-Champ can do just as good for less.


I agree that it won't be surprising for long. Sure a Brotherhood Champion is cheaper (not by a ton, but he is) but the same thing can be said about most every special character. You take them for the benefits more than anything else, in this case Purifier Squads as troops. What really makes Crowe better than a bog standard Brotherhood Champion in the combat department is the Rending on a 4+ to wound. This is way better than just a S4 Power Sword, and I can attest to its deadliness. Crowe also have a better weapon skill, better initiative, and better wounds. 

I would probably never take a Brotherhood Champion , I will admit that, but I rather like Crowe. He is no where near the best character but again, he isn't bad.


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## MadCowCrazy

I find all this debate on op etc being a bit funny since none of you actually know if that will be the case. Some things in it just scream OP and will 100% have been changed in the official release, if not I can see some really retarded lists pop out of it.

Take Warrior Acolytes for instance, you can take 12 of them and give them plasma, melta or flamer for 10 points. Thats 14 points per model for any of those weapons.
I can easily see people putting 12 of those in a chimera and driving up to someone.
That would be 168pts for the troops and 223pt with a chimera that an pop out and fire 24 plasma shots, sure many of those will fail and cause over heat but the damage they will do is still rather high compared to their points cost.

Using the Combat Calc I got these stats
Shots:	24 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	12 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	10 
Saved Wounds:	3.333 
Unsaved Wounds:	6.667 
Models Killed:	6.667 
Gets Hot Chance:	16.67 
Gets Hot Hits:	4	Gets Hot Wounds Lost:	4

Basically vs T5 units with a 5+inv you would kill around 6 models and 4 of your own would die from gets hot on average. So Terminators without SS would be pretty much minced meat.

What I think would be even more op for their points cost would be 6 Banishers with Evicerators for 20pt each and 6 Crusaders for 15pt each in the same group.
265pt for this group in a Chimera, on the charge you would have 12 S6 PW and 12 S3 PW swings coming at you. The S3 wont do much but the other will and when you get attacked back you can allocate 6 hits onto the storm shield wielding Crusaders.

Heck, while we are at it why not just take 8 Arco-Flagellants and 4 Crusaders as meat shields. 235pt in a Chimera, on the charge you would get 40 S5 WS5 attacks coming at you plus the Crusaders attacks.

I know I'm only using one entry from the test dex but my point is still valid, we have no idea how old or legit it is. Only way to make sure would be to post download links to it and wait for GW to respond with their legal team. If they would file a seize and desist on us we would know it's legit but I dont think Jezlad would be too happy about that idea.
There will have been changed made to the dex, probably allot of changes. It's too early to cry OP, just wait a week more until the first people get their hands on the dex. I might get it in 2-3 weeks time but by then all of it's contents should have been posted everywhere.

I wrote an email to Eternal Warriors asking where the 2009 date came from, hoping to get a reply tomorrow or sometime this week.


----------



## Pyriel

> Your posts are essentially about how weak Grey Knights will be, against a variety of opponents. But then you state that they will change the meta game. If they are already so non-lethal, and weak as you say they are, why would the metagame change in the first place?


Here is where you are wrong. The simple fact that an army will change metagame isnt equal with it being powerful.
GK dont need to be powerful, in fact they can be pretty UP and still change the meta significantly.

The only thing needed is that there are actually used in tournaments and games overall.

What will affect the meta game the most and to a pretty big effect are all the warp quake powers GK troops can take.
It will mean the end or at least significant alteration to all the heavy deepstrike reliant army builds in against-all games.

All those 8-pod armies or blood angels from the skies, Belial first turn DS deathwings, myctetic spore based armies etc etc, all those will have to rethink their builds since if they meet a GK army with say 3 strike squads in it it really doesnt matter how badly the GK army will eventually fare against everything else, it will not work against an opponent that causes pretty much the whole table to be a mishap zone.

In other words yes, with the current metagame and only IF it is still unchanged the GK codex will be very powerful since so much out there rely on close deepstrike but logically speaking metagame will alter and there will be less heavy DS armies and instead the game will shift towards other things that take this into consideration.

More plasma for example since DS is nerfed by a foe that is extremely weak to plasma.
I know I would change most of my pod army builds if I knew there were GKs present in a tourney. Maybe drop two pods for some ranged plasma shooting just to have something that can be very effective should I face such an opponent. Its just logical and based on a newly added ability that alters the game mechanic significantly, not because it is overly over or under powered.


I am also very curious about those psilencers, wonder what it will be.
Maybe a Ld based shooty weapon (read that somewhere) but the prices dont really indicate it gets better with increased Ld of the shooter.
Maybe a low S, low AP weapon with lots of shots (a GK equivalent of a plasmagun).
Maybe an anti psycher thing with or a weapon with a set S that works against the opponents Ld (like the callidus template pistol), the name is very intriguing.


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## Judas Masias

Now kids play nice!


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## OldChiZOne

Pyriel said:


> Here is where you are wrong. The simple fact that an army will change metagame isnt equal with it being powerful.
> GK dont need to be powerful, in fact they can be pretty UP and still change the meta significantly.
> 
> The only thing needed is that there are actually used in tournaments and games overall.
> 
> What will affect the meta game the most and to a pretty big effect are all the warp quake powers GK troops can take.
> It will mean the end or at least significant alteration to all the heavy deepstrike reliant army builds in against-all games.
> 
> All those 8-pod armies or blood angels from the skies, Belial first turn DS deathwings, myctetic spore based armies etc etc, all those will have to rethink their builds since if they meet a GK army with say 3 strike squads in it it really doesnt matter how badly the GK army will eventually fare against everything else, it will not work against an opponent that causes pretty much the whole table to be a mishap zone.
> 
> In other words yes, with the current metagame and only IF it is still unchanged the GK codex will be very powerful since so much out there rely on close deepstrike but logically speaking metagame will alter and there will be less heavy DS armies and instead the game will shift towards other things that take this into consideration.
> 
> More plasma for example since DS is nerfed by a foe that is extremely weak to plasma.
> I know I would change most of my pod army builds if I knew there were GKs present in a tourney. Maybe drop two pods for some ranged plasma shooting just to have something that can be very effective should I face such an opponent. Its just logical and based on a newly added ability that alters the game mechanic significantly, not because it is overly over or under powered.
> 
> 
> I am also very curious about those psilencers, wonder what it will be.
> Maybe a Ld based shooty weapon (read that somewhere) but the prices dont really indicate it gets better with increased Ld of the shooter.
> Maybe a low S, low AP weapon with lots of shots (a GK equivalent of a plasmagun).
> Maybe an anti psycher thing with or a weapon with a set S that works against the opponents Ld (like the callidus template pistol), the name is very intriguing.


True, if deepstriking armies are the vast majority of armies that you play against, and that there are a large number of grey knight players in your area. We really won't know this, until after the codex comes out and we can see what players start creating with the codex. In my opinion, GKSS will not be used in any great number, rather purifiers and terminators will be the most optimal choices (for troops that is). 

I still disagree with the plasma comments though. There is a reason that it is not popular now, nor will it be popular in the future. Cover is EVERYWHERE in 5th, there is absolutely no more reason to take it, than to take it against Space Wolves. Plus plasma suffers greatly against horde armies and mech armies (the two main types of armies). Actually if there was going to be a vast shift to the use of plasma weapons, it would of been with the release of the Blood Angels Codex and all their FNP silliness. Plus, if you are getting into rapidfire range with those plasmas in any great number you will lose regardless. 

Anyways, for the sake if this thread, I will not be responding to anymore of your rather misinformed posts. If you'd like to take this discussion elsewhere set up a different thread or PM me. :grin:


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## bhsman

Meh, that's a lotta typing for a codex that won't be out for another month or so, let alone given a few months of playtime. Anyways, I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere about Crowe: Do people _seriously_ expect him to not have IC status?


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## Synack

I really hope he gets IC status, but even then, I hope the sword changes too, I really don't like the idea of my enemy getting FC and re-rolls to hit against me.

I'd rather just take a GM and make purifiers scoring, its not like I'm going to have more than 1 squad of them anyway in 1650.


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## OldChiZOne

bhsman said:


> Meh, that's a lotta typing for a codex that won't be out for another month or so, let alone given a few months of playtime. Anyways, I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere about Crowe: Do people _seriously_ expect him to not have IC status?


Yup. Procrastination in college makes you do terrible things. :laugh:


----------



## oiad

Resv said:


> I agree that it won't be surprising for long. Sure a Brotherhood Champion is cheaper (not by a ton, but he is) but the same thing can be said about most every special character. You take them for the benefits more than anything else, in this case Purifier Squads as troops. What really makes Crowe better than a bog standard Brotherhood Champion in the combat department is the Rending on a 4+ to wound. This is way better than just a S4 Power Sword, and I can attest to its deadliness. Crowe also have a better weapon skill, better initiative, and better wounds.
> 
> I would probably never take a Brotherhood Champion , I will admit that, but I rather like Crowe. He is no where near the best character but again, he isn't bad.


No doubt Purifiers are _the_ big bonus. But even as such you can't help feeling that 150 points to do so leaves you feeling slightly short-changed in comparison to other SM characters with similar FoC-changing abilities.

Still I'm happy that Crowe got a few other bonuses for his fifty points. I'm sure it will help when he has to footslog through all those fields of enemy dakka, playing catchup to the enemy HQ/MC. Handy diversion no doubt but I can't help feel he could have had the potential to be even more helpful. And what would be wrong with hoping so - if we're to believe that his lack of IC status was part of some quirky test or oversight then why not hope that other elements to his build are to be edited either?

The bro-champ is missing some detail there btw - the Anointed Blade allows him reroll-to-wound too. No rending mayhap but with his other bonuses it makes him very potent.


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## soulreaver296

Just a note, but remember that combat servitors are armed with servo arms. that means they get 1 regular attack at int 3, and 1 s8 ignores armor attack at int 1 (so says the servo arm rule, including that the attack is an "extra" attack) for half the cost of a banisher with eviscerator . They do have mind lock, but just put them with coteaz (since, if you're thinking spam, you're prolly gonna take him), and the loss of a laspistol is tremendous, I know. Now, how does s8 with some side attacks compare to s6 with 2d6 pen is the question.


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## Keecai

soulreaver296 said:


> Just a note, but remember that combat servitors are armed with servo arms. that means they get 1 regular attack at int 3, and 1 s8 ignores armor attack at int 1 (so says the servo arm rule, including that the attack is an "extra" attack) for half the cost of a banisher with eviscerator . They do have mind lock, but just put them with coteaz (since, if you're thinking spam, you're prolly gonna take him), and the loss of a laspistol is tremendous, I know. Now, how does s8 with some side attacks compare to s6 with 2d6 pen is the question.


Thats a very good point!
For such a low cost a full squad would be very cheap and well worth the points, especially considering they are basically each packing power fists and 4+ save which aint too bad! Even if you had another role for Coteaz a basic inquisitor is dirt cheap for negating the mind lock.


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## Nurseninja

[assuming accuracy of the leak that dare not speak its name]

I can prevent reserves from entering play. 3 inquisitors, 2 brother captains. yes that almost as much as 2 land raiders and yes its 5 leadership checks but their all at Ld 10 and thats potentially a -5 to enemy reserve rolls. 

Also. I will be spamming acolytes with hots shots, yes they dont have the fancy armour, skill or rules of true stormtroopers, but their half the price!

Addendum. anybody else gonna play whichhunters with these guys?

Arco-flagellent = arco-flagellent
banisher + evicerator = sister repentia
Acolyte + boltgun = sisters
Mystic / psyker = faith based abilities.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Acolyte & Power Armour & Boltgun maybe. I doubt I'd bother, personally; if the Codex is optimised for Grey Knight/ Inquisition armies, byt trying to proxy a Sisters army out of it you're losing a whole helluva lot for circumstantial gains. Besides which, C:WH is great.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Nurseninja said:


> [assuming accuracy of the leak that dare not speak its name]
> 
> I can prevent reserves from entering play. 3 inquisitors, 2 brother captains. yes that almost as much as 2 land raiders and yes its 5 leadership checks but their all at Ld 10 and thats potentially a -5 to enemy reserve rolls.


Psychic Communion only works on your own reserve rolls.


----------



## Nurseninja

checks.... ah yes. used in your movement phase. yes. your right


----------



## coke123

Nurseninja said:


> I can prevent reserves from entering play. 3 inquisitors, 2 brother captains. yes that almost as much as 2 land raiders and yes its 5 leadership checks but their all at Ld 10 and thats potentially a -5 to enemy reserve rolls.


Not too mention, I'm pretty sure that would require you to field 5 HQ choices... seeing as Inquisitors are only HQ in that leak...


----------



## Azezel

Nurseninja said:


> Addendum. anybody else gonna play whichhunters with these guys?
> 
> Arco-flagellent = arco-flagellent
> banisher + evicerator = sister repentia
> Acolyte + boltgun = sisters
> Mystic / psyker = faith based abilities.





Frank Fugger said:


> Acolyte & Power Armour & Boltgun maybe. I doubt I'd bother, personally; if the Codex is optimised for Grey Knight/ Inquisition armies, byt trying to proxy a Sisters army out of it you're losing a whole helluva lot for circumstantial gains. Besides which, C:WH is great.



Nurseninja said 'Witch Hunters', not 'Sisters of Battle'.

If the leak is accurate, then this codex would appear deliberately designed to allow Hereticus-based armies to be played - using the same models that current C:WH players own.

I mean, not only can Acolytes have PA and Boltguns, but Karamazov is in there, and Henchmen can take Razorbacks (Immolators) and Banishers are clearly supposed to be proxied with Repentia models. The Dreadknight can represent a Penitent Engine, too.

Which is nice, since that means there need not be any Inquisitorial stuff in a new Sisters 'dex.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Azezel said:


> I mean, not only can Acolytes have PA and Boltguns, but Karamazov is in there, and Henchmen can take Razorbacks (Immolators) and Banishers are clearly supposed to be proxied with Repentia models. The Dreadknight can represent a Penitent Engine, too.


That's more or less the same stuff the previous respondent mentioned; and it's all Sisters of Battle or Ecclesiarchy gear.

EDIT: Karamazov being the exception.

The new book certainly does appear to cater to Witch Hunters players who'd like to make a better Inquisitorial army, but if you want Sisters then the WH Codex will still be the place to go.


----------



## Mathai

Now with the new Grey Knight codex, we wont be able to throw a little GK fun into other amries anymore. But would the Witch Hunter codex still be able to come over to the Grey Knight codex in reverse? 'Cause then you could have a literal Witch Hunters army and not just a figurative one by sprinkling in some Sisters of Battle from the old codex.


----------



## Frank Fugger

I doubt it; the 'Allies' rules specifically state what Codexes you can use WH forces as Allies in, Codex: Grey Knights isn't one of them, and people are anal.


----------



## Necrosis

Frank Fugger said:


> I doubt it; the 'Allies' rules specifically state what Codexes you can use WH forces as Allies in, Codex: Grey Knights isn't one of them, and people are anal.


But if you use that argument then you could say you could still use the old daemon hunter codex.


----------



## Slinky

Frank Fugger said:


> I doubt it; the 'Allies' rules specifically state what Codexes you can use WH forces as Allies in, Codex: Grey Knights isn't one of them, and people are anal.


It does say all variant Space Marine codexes are good to go though... :biggrin:


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

As for the regular brotherhood champion, could anyone see using him in a role similar to the flying nun? hang back a bit and counter attack?

I know he is a bit slower, but the units he will be rescuing are a bit hardier as well. 

I've not read the leak in depth myself, but from what I've heard about him this seems like the best use so far.

Tell me if I'm completely off base, opinions?


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I have just found and read through the leaked dex and I really do not like some bits of it. Like how vehicles pass a LD 10 psychic test and now cannot be stunned or shaken. WTF? With that rule plus venerable dreadnoughts might kick ass. 

Apart from this however it does seem that if I use runes of warding from a farseer then this army can get stuck really quickly with splatting themselves constantly.


----------



## Katie Drake

Stephen_Newman said:


> I have just found and read through the leaked dex and I really do not like some bits of it. Like how vehicles pass a LD 10 psychic test and now cannot be stunned or shaken. WTF? With that rule plus venerable dreadnoughts might kick ass.
> 
> Apart from this however it does seem that if I use runes of warding from a farseer then this army can get stuck really quickly with splatting themselves constantly.


Hence why Fortitude isn't a problem power (in that it isn't broken, I mean). The psychic test still needs to be passed and it needs to not be canceled out by something like a psychic hood or Runes of Warding. It's good, but not amazing.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

I am actually worried by the distinct lack of up close anti-tank: (besides DK and Dreadnought) as it is begining to look......

Even SM tactical squads can take power fists to help against Dreads/MC: Sergeants can also take meltabombs and termie squads have access to Chainfists or Thunderhammers.

That I can see (and correct me if im wrong) there is nothing to equip squads with to make them RELIABLE anti-vehicle/walker.

Unless your libarian is in range to cast some powers (which arent guaranteed to work) taking NF hammers left right and centre and praying that hammerhand works seems to be the only way that most infantry units look like they could take on a dread, and even then theyre only as strong as Krak Grenades


Its a Shame as I tend to see lots of walkers (Kan walls, BA, MotF dread armies (that includes 3 Ironclads DS in 1st turn)


----------



## Winterous

OrdoMalleus said:


> I am actually worried by the distinct lack of up close anti-tank: (besides DK and Dreadnought) as it is begining to look......
> 
> Even SM tactical squads can take power fists to help against Dreads/MC: Sergeants can also take meltabombs and termie squads have access to Chainfists or Thunderhammers.
> 
> That I can see (and correct me if im wrong) there is nothing to equip squads with to make them RELIABLE anti-vehicle/walker.
> 
> Unless your libarian is in range to cast some powers (which arent guaranteed to work) taking NF hammers left right and centre and praying that hammerhand works seems to be the only way that most infantry units look like they could take on a dread, and even then theyre only as strong as Krak Grenades
> 
> 
> Its a Shame as I tend to see lots of walkers (Kan walls, BA, MotF dread armies (that includes 3 Ironclads DS in 1st turn)


That's just one of the things about Grey Knights, they don't much like taking anti-tank weapons.
Just something you need to get creative about, which is a good thing.


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

Has anyone seen the wargear section though and can reliably confirm that nemesis daemonhammers only give +1 strength, or are we merely basing this off the rumors that came out before the leaked codex? This is a well thought out argument by magodedisco over on BoLS:



> So a quick look at one of the entries in the scan-dex- the Grey Knight Terminators- got me thinking that the Nemesis Daemonhammer is not +1 STR and probably functions more like a Power First. Hammerhand is described to be applied before Nemesis Daemon Hammer modifiers and that would only make sense if it doubled strength.


Everyone seems to assume it will give +1 str from the rumors preceding this leaked codex but when we look at it; (1) the leaked codex doesn't contain a wargear section, (2) no rumormonger since it's release (that I know of) have been able to confirm that it gives +1 str, (3) it makes sense that GK would have some access to a power fist type weapon given that every other smurf army does and at least the previous GKT used to, (4) it seems very odd that GW would create the nemesis deamonhammer and the regular daemonhammer (very confusing) and then fail to give any group besides...inquisitors, access to a power fist weapon, and finally, (5) all of that which magodedisco mentioned in his post .

After all, why would it matter when the +1 str from hammerhand occurs if the nemesis daemonhammer just gives a further +1 strength? It seems pretty intentional that they used the language they did with hammerhand.


----------



## Katie Drake

Inquisitor Dagron XIII said:


> Has anyone seen the wargear section though and can reliably confirm that nemesis daemonhammers only give +1 strength, or are we merely basing this off the rumors that came out before the leaked codex?


I think the issue here is that the leak doesn't make a distinction between a nemesis force hammer and a daemonhammer. I was led to believe that the former is a +1S force weapon and that the latter was essentially a thunder hammer with Daemonbane.


----------



## Synack

I think it just means that they will stack for a total of +2S


----------



## Frank Fugger

Slinky said:


> It does say all variant Space Marine codexes are good to go though... :biggrin:


Damn straight. Immolators in a mech Blood Angels army with Furious Charging Canoness Retinues, or Books and ISTs in a Wolves army would be pretty cool, I reckon. Plus the new Marines Codex means the Allied stuff you can use in a WH army is better too.



Necrosis said:


> But if you use that argument then you could say you could still use the old daemon hunter codex.


How could you, when the new Codex will be called Codex: Grey Knights which supercedes the old Daemonhunters Codex?


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> How could you, when the new Codex will be called Codex: Grey Knights which supercedes the old Daemonhunters Codex?


His point is probably that it doesn't say anywhere that Codex: Daemonhunters is redundant (and probably won't say that). I agree it's pretty obvious that Grey Knights are intended to replace the Daemonhunters, but some people like to be difficult, I suppose.


----------



## Necrosis

The person that posted bellow me made a far better argument then I did.


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

Synack said:


> I think it just means that they will stack for a total of +2S


That's what I originally thought, but if that were the case then it wouldn't matter when you apply the +1 strength from hammerhand. Yet in the leaked codex they are very explicit that you apply the bonus strength before the nemesis daemon hammer is calculated. The distinction is unnecessary if both simply apply a +1 to strength. Just more reason though for why I want to see the actual codex....


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Inquisitor Dagron XIII said:


> That's what I originally thought, but if that were the case then it wouldn't matter when you apply the +1 strength from hammerhand. Yet in the leaked codex they are very explicit that you apply the bonus strength before the nemesis daemon hammer is calculated. The distinction is unnecessary if both simply apply a +1 to strength. Just more reason though for why I want to see the actual codex....


It does seem odd that it specifically states the order in which modifiers are applied, and also that it is in a different order to the BRB.

Having some sort of PF equivalent (CF, TH, DH anything) more available to squads would be the one thing I would like to see improved between the leaked dex and the final dex.

Also considering GK are anti-deamon I would have thought Null-zone would be the first SM power to be transferred to the new codex..........


----------



## Lucian Kain

Cool so strenght 10 hammers


----------



## Winterous

Lucian Kain said:


> Cool so strenght 10 hammers


*facepalm*
We were just discussing this.
Additions are applied AFTER multiplications.


----------



## Necrosis

Winterous said:


> *facepalm*
> We were just discussing this.
> Additions are applied AFTER multiplications.


The Codex says that you add the strength before anything else. So it would be (4+1)x2 instead of 4x2+1.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Necrosis said:


> The Codex says that you add the strength before anything else. So it would be (4+1)x2 instead of 4x2+1.


facepalm yourself... Winterous


----------



## sybarite

OrdoMalleus said:


> That I can see (and correct me if im wrong) there is nothing to equip squads with to make them RELIABLE anti-vehicle/walker.


l am not 100% sure with this, from what l can see you will have at least Psycannons which are ok. for example if the Psycannon is srt 7 heavy 4 with rending it should take out most tanks and walkers with little issue.

the other thing that could do it is henchmen as they might be the only unit with meltaguns in your army.

as for combat items well the other people above have discuss that and we will have to wait and see.


----------



## Winterous

Lucian Kain said:


> facepalm yourself... Winterous


Oooh, it says BEFORE.
I didn't really read it clearly, it seems.

*facepalms self*


----------



## Hurricane

As far as anti-tank goes, I've been curious what everyone's opinion of the potential for five conversion beamers is. Take two inquisitors and three techmarines and try to play a static gunline force? You can also take a couple of warbands as well because of the inquisitors and if you are playing statically you could take masses of servitors with plasma cannons/ heavy bolters since they will be sitting with the inquisitors anyway. 

It honestly doesn't sound too competitive to me but god it sounds like a lot of fun.


----------



## Katie Drake

Hurricane said:


> As far as anti-tank goes, I've been curious what everyone's opinion of the potential for five conversion beamers is. Take two inquisitors and three techmarines and try to play a static gunline force? You can also take a couple of warbands as well because of the inquisitors and if you are playing statically you could take masses of servitors with plasma cannons/ heavy bolters since they will be sitting with the inquisitors anyway.
> 
> It honestly doesn't sound too competitive to me but god it sounds like a lot of fun.


Yeah, it'd be an entertaining list but far from a _good_ one. In this edition often it's best to use weapons with multiple medium strength shots rather than one more powerful one. That's why the psycannon is so awesome.


----------



## Mathai

I'm willing to bet this isnt the _proper_ place to put this question, but I'll be damned if it isnt the best place. 

I was wondering about what the chances they would release a Grey Knight Specific model for their Dreadnought is?


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> I'm willing to bet this isnt the _proper_ place to put this question, but I'll be damned if it isnt the best place.
> 
> I was wondering about what the chances they would release a Grey Knight Specific model for their Dreadnought is?


Well since the options are all the same, I assume it's more like they'll release a Grey Knight iconography pack, with lots of sigils and chapter decoration for all their vehicles. Obviously including stuff for the Dreadnought.


----------



## Synack

I doubt they will.


----------



## Ninja D

Winterous said:


> Well since the options are all the same, I assume it's more like they'll release a Grey Knight iconography pack, with lots of sigils and chapter decoration for all their vehicles. Obviously including stuff for the Dreadnought.


 
Forge World has a couple nice Grey Knight specific MK IV and MK V Dreadnaughts (I use two of the MK IV ones myself). However, I'm actually hoping for a kit like the Blood Angels have for their Furioso kit. I think the left arm force weapon for the Librarian Furioso would be a solid swap out for the Grey Knight Dreadnaught close combat weapon (whatever it may be) from a thematic point of view.


----------



## Katie Drake

GW is pumping out so many Dreadnought kits as of late I can't see why they wouldn't make another one for the Grey Knights.


----------



## Vanchet

Hope they don't make more bth-I see it stopping other stuff which I'd like to see in a new model (so more Special Characters/ Tanks/ Units/ Etc


----------



## bitsandkits

have we got any actual pictures of then new models other than those blurry ones yet?


----------



## Synack

bitsandkits said:


> have we got any actual pictures of then new models other than those blurry ones yet?


Nope 10chars


----------



## 5tonsledge

well this is the first rumors ive really checked out, and if half of the rumors are true i honestly dont think ill even play a GK player. simply because i dont want to have to deal with the bull shit. So ill just wait until my chaos codex comes out. god damn though i am excited to get a hold of those new models. painting them and making minor converisons will be soo much fun.


----------



## Katie Drake

5tonsledge said:


> well this is the first rumors ive really checked out, and if half of the rumors are true i honestly dont think ill even play a GK player. simply because i dont want to have to deal with the bull shit.


What bullshit?


----------



## Frank Fugger

I'm guessing he has some sort of assault-based army that is likely to get stepped on by 30 Marines with Storm Bolters and power weapons.



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, it'd be an entertaining list but far from a _good_ one. In this edition often it's best to use weapons with multiple medium strength shots rather than one more powerful one. That's why the psycannon is so awesome.


I wouldn't say it was awesome; it's a million times better than it used to be, when the Psycannons were S6 and cost 30pts each, but you're still looking at 110pts for the cheapest squad-humped Psycannon according to the playtest book, and there's a distinct lack of the AP1 stuff that reliably kills tanks. Without that you're relying on Glancing hits to keep your opponent's vehicles from taking part in the game, which is fine as far as it goes, but means the squads carrying your medium-strength weapons are more or less dedicated to Shaking and Stunning Rhinos.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> I'm guessing he has some sort of assault-based army that is likely to get stepped on by 30 Marines with Storm Bolters and power weapons.


Ah. I just figured it was the usual pre-release QQing that happens before every Codex. Do you remember the rage that Njal Stormcaller caused about a month before the Space Wolves came out? Funny stuff, tournament organizers were talking of banning him. :laugh:



> I wouldn't say it was awesome; it's a million times better than it used to be, when the Psycannons were S6 and cost 30pts each, but you're still looking at 110pts for the cheapest squad-humped Psycannon according to the playtest book, and there's a distinct lack of the AP1 stuff that reliably kills tanks. Without that you're relying on Glancing hits to keep your opponent's vehicles from taking part in the game, which is fine as far as it goes, but means the squads carrying your medium-strength weapons are more or less dedicated to Shaking and Stunning Rhinos.


So far my thoughts on one possible Grey Knight list-type is a semi-mech (hybrid, I suppose) one. Units of 5 Grey Knights in power armor in Rhinos firing out of the top hatch with their psycannon sounds good, especially if passengers can continue to shoot after being Shaken/Stunned due to Fortitude. I do think that the best Grey Knight armies will be running melta Henchmen, though.


----------



## Synack

I don't want to run melta henchmen, simple because it sounds oh so very boring


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> I don't want to run melta henchmen, simple because it sounds oh so very boring


That's fine, there'll be alternatives, it's just they may not be as point efficient as melta Henchmen. Stormravens firing missiles and using multi-meltas can do okay, though they're quite expensive.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Ah. I just figured it was the usual pre-release QQing that happens before every Codex. Do you remember the rage that Njal Stormcaller caused about a month before the Space Wolves came out? Funny stuff, tournament organizers were talking of banning him. :laugh:


o_õ

The only thing that's really that good about him is the fact that 2/3 enemy Psychic Powers within 24" of him just fizzle.
He has GREAT Psychic defences, I mean GREAT.


----------



## The Sullen One

I'm confused. By Melta henchmen do people mean stormtroopers?

Also DH are getting Stormravens which will surely allow for Multi-Meltas as an option and given that SRs can transport Dreadnaughts, surely they'll be able to take Grey Knights.

Therefore you've got some AP1 guns.


----------



## Winterous

The Sullen One said:


> I'm confused. By Melta henchmen do people mean stormtroopers?


There are no Storm Troopers in the new Grey Knights codex.
Inquisitors can take a unit of Henchmen, which can consist of a fuckload of different models.
One of these is an 'Acolyte', which you can basically equip however the fuck you want.


----------



## Katie Drake

The Sullen One said:


> I'm confused. By Melta henchmen do people mean stormtroopers?


No, we mean Henchmen with meltaguns. I think the actual unit name is an Inquisitor Henchmen Warband or something. Anyway, it's possible (and indeed advised) to give Warrior Acolytes meltaguns for a fairly modest sum of points (after the upgrade these guys come to just under 15 points which isn't too bad all things considered).



> Also DH are getting Stormravens which will surely allow for Multi-Meltas as an option and given that SRs can transport Dreadnaughts, surely they'll be able to take Grey Knights.
> 
> Therefore you've got some AP1 guns.


Yeah the Grey Knights have _some_ AP1 guns, it's just that they're usually mounted on somewhat awkward platforms (Stormravens are hellishly expensive for an AV12 vehicle, Land Raiders are slow and pricey and Dreadnoughts lack Drop Pods to get in multi-melta range without first risking being blown to bits). It'll be interesting to see how top players get around this problem.


----------



## Brovius

Frank Fugger said:


> Two words: The Sanguinor.


I personally think Dante is a much cheesier character.
A model that nerfs the stats of an enemy character of your choosing is just stupid.
Just you wait, when Ward does the 5.5ed SM codex, Chapter masters will be able to reduce a single model of their choice down to one wound.
It's ridiculously powerful, being able to make the enemy's HQ lose a wound before the dice hit the ground. Not to mention the other stat losses (like I and A, IIRC) which hurts as a current GK player. Had my opponent reduce BC Stern's statline to that of a Justicar.
Ward better recompensate for this by making me an army worthy of Mord... uh, Emperor.

Yeah, Emperor.


----------



## Winterous

Brovius said:


> I personally think Dante is a much cheesier character.


HAH!
He's a rather UNDERWHELMING character for his cost really.
What you're paying for is a single unit Deep Striking without scatter, and Sanguinary Guard being troops. And the mask thing, but that isn't by any means OP.
Other than that, you pretty much get a dude with a Power weapon and Infernus pistol, ooh, how nasty.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

One thing I'm curious about is Psycannons for dreadnoughts, they were in the old dex and FW sells them but none of the dreads in the playdex has them, I wonder why?
Dreadknight doesn't count...


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> One thing I'm curious about is Psycannons for dreadnoughts, they were in the old dex and FW sells them but none of the dreads in the playdex has them, I wonder why?
> Dreadknight doesn't count...


Could be that they're trying to cut down on psycannon spam, or that they simply want Dreadnoughts to fulfil a different role, or that they don't want to make a model for it, or that in the playtest 'Dex they copy-pasted the entry from another book... lots of potential reasons.


----------



## Synack

I'm think auto-cannon dreads might fit in nicely with a GK army.


----------



## bhsman

Katie Drake said:


> Could be that they're trying to cut down on psycannon spam, or that they simply want Dreadnoughts to fulfil a different role, or that they don't want to make a model for it, or that in the playtest 'Dex they copy-pasted the entry from another book... lots of potential reasons.


Or Mat Ward has terrible design fundamentals...

I mean, hell, the Culexus Assassin no longer does anything to psykers (short of his _grenades_ doing something and not being a pariah) of ANY kind; he can become more powerful in the presence of friendly psykers who are apparently A-OK with him being there. Not only that, but the Eversor no longer explodes when he dies. I'll honestly be surprised if this doesn't change by the final edition.

First Blood Angels, and now with Grey Knights, the dude just doesn't 'get' it.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> Yeah, because in an army packed to the gills with S7 shooting, what you need is more S7 shooting, right?


Clearly.


----------



## The Sullen One

No Storm Troopers! What the Frak?:suicide:

Who in their right mind (and I've seen Mat Ward's name mentioned above, so this is a rhetorical rant) deletes the Storm Troopers?:suicide:

Okay so they aren't Scuzz Marines and they've got to put up with the unholy trinity, but they should still be in the army list. They're more versatile than the Grey Knights and more importantly, they're part of the Inquistion. They should be in the codex!:suicide:

Does this mean that Witchunters will lose them as well, because that would be just frakking stupid. It seems that once again GW are just thinking with their pockets (big surprise) and working out how many of the shiny new plastic GK squads they can sell to all the trendslaves, because this is just Space Marine codex number 6!:suicide:

What's next, Tau without Kroot? Bretonnians where you have to take a Lord as well a PBSB and Kotr? Storm Shields that grant a 2++?

:suicide::suicide::suicide::suicide::suicide: :suicide::suicide::suicide::suicide::suicide:





P.S. Anyone concerned about my mental state should reassure themselves that I lost my sanity a long time ago.


----------



## Ninja D

Synack said:


> I'm think auto-cannon dreads might fit in nicely with a GK army.


I like the idea of autocannon dreads myself. Honestly, I'll deploy dreadnaughts to fill any fire support gaps I might have when necessary. Same with using Stormravens; they're not going to be something I have to have in the army but it'll be nice to shake things up a bit and take one from time to time to fill in the gaps as it were.


----------



## Katie Drake

The Sullen One said:


> No Storm Troopers! What the Frak?:suicide:
> 
> Who in their right mind (and I've seen Mat Ward's name mentioned above, so this is a rhetorical rant) deletes the Storm Troopers?:suicide:


It's fine, you can still "make" Stormtroopers using the Warrior Acolyte entry. You can give the Warrior Acolytes both carapace armor and a hot shot lasgun, so they basically become Stormtroopers save for the BS4, which is compensated for by the fact that you can take as many special weapons there are Warrior Acolytes in the unit.


----------



## bhsman

Katie Drake said:


> It's fine, you can still "make" Stormtroopers using the Warrior Acolyte entry. You can give the Warrior Acolytes both carapace armor and a hot shot lasgun, so they basically become Stormtroopers save for the BS4, which is compensated for by the fact that you can take as many special weapons there are Warrior Acolytes in the unit.


Which, again, goes to my point: Ward doesn't "get" this.


----------



## oiad

Tis a shame that they can't be taken as troops by each inquisitor, or at least all the special characters. The initial rumour suggesting FoC support would be based on your HQ choice sounded intriguing. At a guess - GM/BC were needed to take GK units, Inquisitors for multiple IST/Henchman and their support. You could build an army of one, the other or both at a costly sum for two HQs - a fair price to pay.

I wonder if it was the choice of going with 'Codex: Grey Knights' that did it. Would placing more emphasis on this being a 'GK book' put the writer off such an approach?


----------



## Katie Drake

bhsman said:


> Which, again, goes to my point: Ward doesn't "get" this.


Honestly, I fail to see the problem. You can still use your Stormtrooper models if you have them and they function almost identically to the Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit in Codex: Daemonhunters. In fact, in some ways they're actually better. It seems win-win to me.


----------



## GrizBe

I really don't get all this Matt Ward hate.... okay, some of his fluff may be 'iffy', but his actual rule writing has resulted in some of the better balenced and more effective armies currently out there. 

Okay, some stuff gets screwed, but as a whole the army becomes vastly more effective and fun to play.


----------



## Katie Drake

GrizBe said:


> I really don't get all this Matt Ward hate.... okay, some of his fluff may be 'iffy', but his actual rule writing has resulted in some of the better balenced and more effective armies currently out there.
> 
> Okay, some stuff gets screwed, but as a whole the army becomes vastly more effective and fun to play.


You forget, if a Codex does anything at all different from the previous incarnation it's broken, cheese and totally overpowered.


----------



## lordsloth

Katie Drake said:


> You forget, if a Codex does anything at all different from the previous incarnation it's broken, cheese and totally overpowered.


Except if the person speaking played the old codex, in which case the new one is broken, useless and totally underpowered.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

lordsloth said:


> Except if the person speaking played the old codex, in which case the new one is broken, useless and totally underpowered.


 I am going to miss my WS5 and Str.6:ireful2:, however the reducued points does go someway towards making up for this.:grin:

The things that i feel look like they will be a disapointment is losing Agesis ( the new ones crap! -1ld ok, but not as good as a PH per squad!!)

The lack of squad anti -tank (my justicars cant even take MB from the looks of it, and TH per squad look like they are out:suicide and considering the that GK are all pyskers the powers are not as widely availble or in your face as I hoped:cray: (i wanted null zone lol:victory

However since all of this is speculation I will stop chucking my 2Cents into the ring.......


----------



## lordsloth

OrdoMalleus said:


> I am going to miss my WS5 and Str.6:ireful2:, however the reducued points does go someway towards making up for this.:grin:
> 
> The things that i feel look like they will be a disapointment is losing Agesis ( the new ones crap! -1ld ok, but not as good as a PH per squad!!)
> 
> The lack of squad anti -tank (my justicars cant even take MB from the looks of it, and TH per squad look like they are out:suicide and considering the that GK are all pyskers the powers are not as widely availble or in your face as I hoped:cray: (i wanted null zone lol:victory
> 
> However since all of this is speculation I will stop chucking my 2Cents into the ring.......


Oh i agree that some things seem worse. (Personally I'm most disappointed in the loss of a true grit like ability) But the rumours have some good stuff in them as well. I'm quite digging the librarian powers for example.

In the end we'll just have to see how it all meshes together to make a codex. (And obviously, the rumours might be full of ..uhm .. belony)


----------



## soulreaver296

So, I've heard that the march WD mentions GK on sale March 26. Anyone had a look, or am I late?

EDIT: I know it conflicts with the April release that GW gave, so maybe pre-orders are going up then?


----------



## Auditorii Imperator

soulreaver296 said:


> So, I've heard that the march WD mentions GK on sale March 26. Anyone had a look, or am I late?
> 
> EDIT: I know it conflicts with the April release that GW gave, so maybe pre-orders are going up then?



I believe that is when the next issue of WD goes on sale... not the Grey Knights.


----------



## bhsman

Katie Drake said:


> Honestly, I fail to see the problem. You can still use your Stormtrooper models if you have them and they function almost identically to the Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit in Codex: Daemonhunters. In fact, in some ways they're actually better. It seems win-win to me.


Luckily for me I don't own any Stormtroopers. But this codex feels like its missed the mark; sure, it might be competitive, but at what cost? The things that made me feel like this army was unique and what did work are now becoming all same-y:

-The Eversor no longer explodes when he dies, probably one of the most characterful things about the model.

-The Culexus no longer negatively affects Psykers, and is no better at fighting them than other Assassins.

-Grey Knights can no run away from fights and are no better trained than regular Marines aside from the fact that they are Psykers. They die just as easily, too.

-Cleansing Flame does a better job than Holocaust at being, well, Holocaust

-Those elite companies of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are no longer so elite

-Dear god Draigo's fluff needs to be shot into the sun

It's a bunch of little things, but it all adds together The difference between Kelly's rules and Ward's is that Kelly will look at what people liked to take with the old book and keep it in line with the newer stuff with maybe a unit here or there that isn't taken as much or one that is taken almost exclusively at first. Eldar still felt like Eldar, Orkz still felt like Orkz, and Space Wolves feel like Space Wolves.

For Blood Angels? Lemartes gets demoted to the sole job of babysitting the Death Company while a new High Chaplain is ironically a better thematic choice for a Flesh Tearers army than their _Chapter Master_. Veteran Assault Squads, a characteristic choice of Blood Angels in their own way, who could have been represented using a combination of both Sternguard and Vanguard models (Marines with SIA-Bolters and Jump Packs? Sign me up!) are instead removed in favor of copy and pasting new units Ward made up for his last Marine codex, and Vanguard still suck. And so do the rules for Red Thirst.

Sorry for the rant. Guess this is what I get for having high hopes about a new codex I've been waiting a few years-plus for. Twice. :cray:


----------



## Irbian

Sorry sir, but I like Draigo´s fluff and I´ll shoot you in the face with my stormbolter and stab you in the heart with my nemesis sword if you repeat that


----------



## hungryugolino

It's shit, the lack of options is shit, and the new dex is probably going to be shit as well.

The only redeeming quality of this new dex is that there'll be plastics.


----------



## Brovius

Frank Fugger said:


> Everyone pooh-poohed Manticores and Tyrannofexes when C:IG and C:Tyranids first came out. Now everyone loves them.


I dunno about Manticores, but the only reason people like the Tyrannofex is because it's the only model that can withstand missile-spam without a 40pt upgrade.



Frank Fugger said:


> Call it cheese, or whine, or whatever you want; fact is Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace write better Codexes than Mat Ward does, purely because they don't gimp my choices with stupid nonsense.


Cruddace gimped my 7 Carnifexen, and for what? To sell the Trygon models?
Mission accomplished.
Kelly also gimped Leman Russ Exterminators all the way out of the SW codex, also. They're better than Ward, but that doesn't make them angels.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Haven't tried to look at leaked codex, just been watching this very very long thread and I have seen it said that there are no Dreadnought Psycannon options..and I JUST got a FW order in with, yep, a Psycannon or 2. Since everyone else seems to blame matt ward for this stuff mebbe I should too? lol.

O yeah havent seen this for a while:

So no more PW just FW? That sucks..no more PW 

:victory:


----------



## bhsman

Irbian said:


> Sorry sir, but I like Draigo´s fluff and I´ll shoot you in the face with my stormbolter and stab you in the heart with my nemesis sword if you repeat that


Then I direct you to this page where you can learn about more well-written fictional characters. :crazy:


----------



## sybarite

hungryugolino said:


> It's shit, the lack of options is shit, and the new dex is probably going to be shit as well.
> 
> The only redeeming quality of this new dex is that there'll be plastics.


well l disagree.

l am planing on two different list's.

1. being filled to the max with Psycannons on foot (no tanks and yes l know its cheesy as hell)

2. full if not almost full mech army

l refuse to use henchmen or storm troopers (if there in) as l am going for a pure GK army, as l want something that's different from my other armies l own and not the same god dam units.


----------



## Irbian

bhsman said:


> Then I direct you to this page where you can learn about more well-written fictional characters. :crazy:



Much appreciated :biggrin:


----------



## Crynn

bhsman said:


> Luckily for me I don't own any Stormtroopers. But this codex feels like its missed the mark; sure, it might be competitive, but at what cost? The things that made me feel like this army was unique and what did work are now becoming all same-y:
> 
> -The Eversor no longer explodes when he dies, probably one of the most characterful things about the model.
> 
> -The Culexus no longer negatively affects Psykers, and is no better at fighting them than other Assassins.
> 
> -Grey Knights can no run away from fights and are no better trained than regular Marines aside from the fact that they are Psykers. They die just as easily, too.
> 
> -Cleansing Flame does a better job than Holocaust at being, well, Holocaust
> 
> -Those elite companies of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are no longer so elite
> 
> -Dear god Draigo's fluff needs to be shot into the sun
> 
> It's a bunch of little things, but it all adds together The difference between Kelly's rules and Ward's is that Kelly will look at what people liked to take with the old book and keep it in line with the newer stuff with maybe a unit here or there that isn't taken as much or one that is taken almost exclusively at first. Eldar still felt like Eldar, Orkz still felt like Orkz, and Space Wolves feel like Space Wolves.
> 
> For Blood Angels? Lemartes gets demoted to the sole job of babysitting the Death Company while a new High Chaplain is ironically a better thematic choice for a Flesh Tearers army than their _Chapter Master_. Veteran Assault Squads, a characteristic choice of Blood Angels in their own way, who could have been represented using a combination of both Sternguard and Vanguard models (Marines with SIA-Bolters and Jump Packs? Sign me up!) are instead removed in favor of copy and pasting new units Ward made up for his last Marine codex, and Vanguard still suck. And so do the rules for Red Thirst.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. Guess this is what I get for having high hopes about a new codex I've been waiting a few years-plus for. Twice. :cray:


AS i player going on 14 years in the hobby who ahs one Major tournaments ans has played literally every marine codex from 3rd ed to the current codicies. This self proclaimed 'rant' is 100% spot on. Have your rant mate, it's completely warranted and it true to the letter. Matt Ward needs to loose his job.

In saying that the current codex doesn't look to bad over all. However as pointed out already there are some big fluff holes and some redundant units. Seems very reminiscent of the major falws within the Blood Angels Codex. A pattern emerges.

Regards,

Crynn.


----------



## Winterous

Champion Alaric said:


> So no more PW just FW? That sucks..no more PW


Perhaps you should READ THE RULES FOR ONCE.
Force weapons ARE Power weapons, in addition to their crazy psychic stuff.

Notice how no other army's Force weapons specify that they're Power weapons? That because they don't fucking need to.


----------



## coke123

soulreaver296 said:


> So, I've heard that the march WD mentions GK on sale March 26. Anyone had a look, or am I late?
> 
> EDIT: I know it conflicts with the April release that GW gave, so maybe pre-orders are going up then?


I noticed that too.

I was chatting with the local GW manager the other day- apparently advance orders go up on the 9th of march. He insisted that this was more or less set in stone.

I imagine we'll be getting our advance order stuff around the 26th, and they may even start the releases that day, and then have a second sort of mini-wave later in April?


----------



## sybarite

Winterous said:


> Perhaps you should READ THE RULES FOR ONCE.


*looks back just 7 pages ago (page 413) in this thread and faceplam*, everyone misread or misunderstands the rules every now and then. There is no need to yell at them for it.

As to the question the big rumour going around is that they will not have FW they will be replaced with normal PW. (for normal troops)


----------



## Winterous

sybarite said:


> As to the question the big rumour going around is that they will not have FW they will be replaced with normal PW. (for normal troops)


I've not heard this, I've heard the exact opposite actually.


----------



## sybarite

Winterous said:


> I've not heard this, I've heard the exact opposite actually.


on the 1st page.

Nemesis Weapons, as far as I know are Force Weapons. HOWEVER, because of how Brotherhood of Psykers works (A unit casts a psychic power as a singular entity) I believe this means that only one weapon can become a Force Weapon per turn (If you so choose to use it over Hammerhands), and the rest are power weapons. Still, nothing to sneeze at.

but some people have taken a different view (or heard/read somthing different). For example 

17/01/2011
Fritz has posted a youtube video about the GKs, 2 new and rather interesting things in it. Callidus C-Tan blade reduced to a lousy power weapon 

now these are just rumours so who knows. l am just saying l have heard people saying both (they have FW and they don't have FW).


----------



## Necrosis

sybarite said:


> 17/01/2011
> Fritz has posted a youtube video about the GKs, 2 new and rather interesting things in it. Callidus C-Tan blade reduced to a lousy power weapon
> 
> now these are just rumours so who knows. l am just saying l have heard people saying both (they have FW and they don't have FW).


It's a power weapon that causes instant death.


----------



## sybarite

Necrosis said:


> It's a power weapon that causes instant death.


l could have sworn its a FW will look at my old dex when l get home but thanks for the pick up.

in either case l have still heard people say they are both. The main argument l hear for why they won't have FW on a basic GK (HQ will) is due to game balance. 

Because if every model in your army has a FW, you will kill some armies with ease. 

on the other hand some people say, that should cost a lot of points to do that so and thus makes it a balance and an elite army.

Time will tell, and sorry for the bad example.


----------



## Necrosis

I meant that the C'tan phase sword is a power weapon that causes instant death.


----------



## Lesiu

Sybarite you are just looking for a loophole. According to rumours and leaked pdf ALL GKs have FW, FW *ARE* PW (rulebook page 50), GKs have brotherhood of psykers rule (they cast a single psychic power as a whole squad), so GKs can inflict a single instant death with their FWs.
Example:
10 Grey Knights fight Wolf Lord, 5 GHs and a Wolf Priest. GKs strike, inflict 1 wound on Lord, 1 on Priest and kill 2 GHs, (wolfs performance is not important here, as long as they don't wipe GKs). Now GKs can cast a single psychic power (brotherhood of psykers) so they can choose to 1) use FW to instant kill Lord, 2) use FW to instant kill Priest. They make their choice, they pass Ld, chosen model goes SPLAT.
It's exacly the same as a single Librarian inflicting 1 wound on Lord and 1 on Priest, he can cast a single psychic power (FW) so he has to choose target (Lord or Priest) and pass Ld. Seriously guys 40k is not rocket science, read the rules.

Of course it's all based on rumours and might change...

Edit. I changed a guy on Thunderwolf for Wolf Priest in my example, as people assumed I'm stupid enought to try to kill wargear without wounds...


----------



## Judas Masias

Lesiu said:


> Example:
> 10 Grey Knights fight Wolf Lord, 5 GHs and a dude on Thunderwolf. GKs strike, inflict 1 wound on Lord, 1 on Thunderwolf and kill 2 GHs, (wolfs performance is not important here, as long as they don't wipe GKs). Now GKs can cast a single psychic power (brotherhood of psykers) so they can choose to 1) use FW to instant kill Lord, 2) use FW to instant kill Thunderwolf.
> 
> It's exacly the same as a single Librarian inflicting 1 wound on Lord and 1 on Thunderwolf, he can cast a single psychic power (FW) so he has to choose target (Lord or Wolf) and pass Ld. Seriously guys 40k is not rocket science, read the rules.
> 
> Of course it's all based on rumours and might change...


Sorry dude hate to tell you that you cannot kill the Thunderwolf because it's a Wargear Upgrade like a bike or a jump pack for a Wolf Lord.


----------



## Lesiu

Judas Masias said:


> Sorry dude hate to tell you that you cannot kill the Thunderwolf because it's a Wargear Upgrade like a bike or a jump pack for a Wolf Lord.


I wrote *dude* on Thunderwolf, that was the first multiwound model that came to my mind after Lord... Read whole post.


----------



## Synack

Judas Masias said:


> Sorry dude hate to tell you that you cannot kill the Thunderwolf because it's a Wargear Upgrade like a bike or a jump pack for a Wolf Lord.


Umm, when people say thunderwolf, its short for thunderwolf cav, ie: space wolves, on thunderwolves. He's not saying he's going to kill the wolf and not the marine riding it, he means the WHOLE model.


----------



## Judas Masias

Sorry i did not see the bottom part of the post.


----------



## sybarite

Lesiu that is correct but if that PDF is right then its 100 points for 5 GK

so for 20 pts each they have a storm bolter a FW, power armour and SM states compare that to any other unit in the game and you will find that's way to good.

Even though l can't post the points here, look at an normal SM arm with the same equipment (just a PW instead of a FW) and he cost more points.

that's why l hear some people say they will not have FW but hey who knows.


----------



## Lesiu

Well I changed my example to avoid confusion. Still it doesn't matter what multi-wound models are there, it's important that squad of GKs act like a single psyker (Librarian) and follow the same rules when using their FWs.

Edit:

Sybarite compared to SM sure, but we all know they are too expensive for what they do. Compare GKs to GHs with banner, wulfen and WG, it's a not so obvious who comes out on top. Also I wouldn't be suprised if basic squad was 110 points and 20 for additional members in final version.


----------



## sybarite

Lesiu,
l have no idea on point cost with spaces wolfs so no comment there, l do have the normal SM codex, DA and BA and l was basing it off that.

But l see your point if they cost more points it should be fine l would say 25pts each though (+ 10 of the Just)


----------



## Winterous

Sybarite.
The Grey Knights pay for their cheap-as-piss regular Troops in other ways, such as being rather lacking in the anti-vehicle department.
Oh sure, they have Psycannon, but those will only scratch AV14 on a 6, so it isn't exactly reliable.

They also are ONLY as tough as regular Space Marines, T4, 3+ Armour save, that's it.


----------



## Synack

The Nid codex is fine, as long as you're not playing competent IG, SW or BA players.


----------



## Brovius

To clear things up on all GKs having a FW, it makes them really powerful against units with attached Characters. Because everyone has a FW, the dreaded instant-death attack can come from anywhere in the unit, instead of just the spiffy Librarian or Grand Master in the unit, provided he is in base contact with the target character, and manages to hit and wound, and the target fails at least one save. With a whole squad hitting with FWs, due to wound allocation, the enemy may well be forced to take saves on their IC, and he only needs to fail a single save to be at risk of ID.

This actually works out really well for the GKs


----------



## Synack

You can't do wound allocation shenanigans in combat with ICs. At the start of combat, those models that are in B2B with the IC and only the IC *must* hit the IC, then any models that are in B2B with the IC and other models, may choose to hit the IC or another unit and then finally anymodel within 2" of a model in B2B with a IC and they them selves are not in B2B with other models, may opt to hit the IC.

You roll to hit and wound separately against the IC, he can't assign wounds on or off the IC.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Wait, so advanced orders go up on march 9th? Fuck yes, the day gets even better now!!! (Although it is 5am....):yahoo:


----------



## coke123

^ That's what I heard, at any rate. Could be wrong, but I've no reason to believe otherwise.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

coke123 said:


> ^ That's what I heard, at any rate. Could be wrong, but I've no reason to believe otherwise.


You and the Release of DoW Retribution just made my day:friends:


----------



## Winterous

Akhara'Keth said:


> You and the Release of DoW Retribution just made my day:friends:


I pre-ordered the collector's edition at EB, so I don't get it until Thursday for some reason 

Oh well, that gives me time to finish the Dark Crusade campaign, and, if I put it on easy mode, the Soulstorm one too.
Although I'm not 100% sure that the IG victory is the canon Soulstorm ending.


----------



## coke123

Akhara'Keth said:


> You and the Release of DoW Retribution just made my day:friends:


Well, now I really hope I'm right... nice to hear that though.


----------



## Platton725

Winterous said:


> Sybarite.
> The Grey Knights pay for their cheap-as-piss regular Troops in other ways, such as being rather lacking in the anti-vehicle department.
> Oh sure, they have Psycannon, but those will only scratch AV14 on a 6, so it isn't exactly reliable.
> 
> They also are ONLY as tough as regular Space Marines, T4, 3+ Armour save, that's it.


Winterous, if you do the math you will find that a S7, heavy 4, Rending Psycannon is on par with a railgun for cracking AV14....


----------



## Winterous

Platton725 said:


> Winterous, if you do the math you will find that a S7, heavy 4, Rending Psycannon is on par with a railgun for cracking AV14....


They don't have Meltaguns, is what I'm saying.
But fair enough.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Winterous said:


> Perhaps you should READ THE RULES FOR ONCE.
> Force weapons ARE Power weapons, in addition to their crazy psychic stuff. :sarcastichand:
> 
> Notice how no other army's Force weapons specify that they're Power weapons? That because they don't fucking need to.


\

:stop::grin: It was a joke and you fell for it sucka! lol

and i had a feelin it was gonna be you too..now go upstairs and ask your mom for a hug to release some hostility


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Retribution unlocked for me last night, thought it would unlock on the 4th but I guess I'm just that special


----------



## soulreaver296

Initial thoughts on it MCC?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

soulreaver296 said:


> Initial thoughts on it MCC?


It doesn't seem as refined as DoW2 and Chaos Rising, maybe it's just me but I think it loads allot slower than the previous titles.
It's like it been a bit rushed but otherwise it's good. Playing trough the IG campaign atm.
Every time you complete a mission it takes just a bit too long to load the next thing I think, maybe there are some memory leaks or something. I've got 12GB ram and both DoW2 and CR loaded really fast but this feels a bit slow. You start to wondering if the game has crashed at times.
No problems what so ever when you get into your missions but the loading in between missions feels a bit too long.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

soulreaver296 said:


> Initial thoughts on it MCC?


It doesn't seem as refined as DoW2 and Chaos Rising, maybe it's just me but I think it loads allot slower than the previous titles.
It's like it been a bit rushed but otherwise it's good. Playing trough the IG campaign atm.
Every time you complete a mission it takes just a bit too long to load the next thing I think, maybe there are some memory leaks or something. I've got 12GB ram and both DoW2 and CR loaded really fast but this feels a bit slow. You start to wondering if the game has crashed at times.
No problems what so ever when you get into your missions but the loading in between missions feels a bit too long.

WTF?! Now I can't start it. It now tells me preloading is complete and that once the game is released I will be able to play it. Says it unlocks in 2 days and a few hours. I have already been playing it for over 5 hours, I played it just 3 hours ago! WTF is this shit?


----------



## Tarvitz210300

congratulation to every one who does this its fucking amazing


----------



## Mathai

Meh I gave up on Dawn of War 2 a while ago. Its very pretty, but every time I played a round, I started to think about it I then started to think about the original and how good it was up to Dark Crusade, and all the flaws in it come out so badly for me.


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


> WTF?! Now I can't start it. It now tells me preloading is complete and that once the game is released I will be able to play it. Says it unlocks in 2 days and a few hours. I have already been playing it for over 5 hours, I played it just 3 hours ago! WTF is this shit?


Fat lol :laugh:


----------



## sybarite

MadCowCrazy said:


> WTF?! Now I can't start it. It now tells me preloading is complete and that once the game is released I will be able to play it. Says it unlocks in 2 days and a few hours. I have already been playing it for over 5 hours, I played it just 3 hours ago! WTF is this shit?


l found it odd that steam had the game relased 4 to 5 days before the hard copys came out for most areas. So l think steam got told to wait....

@Frank Fugger: what ever you posted dosn't work.

with the Psycannon.. yes there not the best ati tank gun in the game but there still dam good. l think its even better then a Lascannon or a ML due to the number of shots its also good vs inf

Edit: on a funny side note l now remenber when l got the DOW2 hard copy l had to wait one day before steam unlock the game . 
wow l just got and email from my store (EB games) saying the game going to be out 2/3/2011 thats today for me!!!! (it was the 4/3/2011)


----------



## Akhara'Keth

It is kinda werid....Started perfectly the first time, I started the Eldar Campaign and after 45 min it crashed. Tried to start again. "Game is unavaiable at the moment". Clicked okay and started again, now it works. It is funny^^.

But let's get back to the Tabletop. I am sure that Retribution has it's own thread.

Railgun vs Psycannon:

Psycannon:





> *Shooting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Shots:* 4
> *Hit Chance:* 66.67%
> *Hits:* 2.667
> *Glancing Chance:* 5.56%
> *Penetration Chance:* 11.11%
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.148
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.296
> *Shaken:* 0.123
> *Stunned:* 0.074
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.074
> *Immobilized:* 0.074
> *Wrecked:* 0.049
> *Explodes:* 0.049
> *Options:* Rending
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 2.667
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.148
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.296
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.123
> *Stunned:* 0.074
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.074
> *Immobilized:* 0.074
> *Wrecked:* 0.049
> *Explodes:* 0.049
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


Railgun:




> *Shooting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Shots:* 1
> *Hit Chance:* 66.67%
> *Hits:* 0.667
> *Glancing Chance:* 16.67%
> *Penetration Chance:* 33.33%
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.111
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.222
> *Shaken:* 0.037
> *Stunned:* 0.056
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.056
> *Immobilized:* 0.056
> *Wrecked:* 0.056
> *Explodes:* 0.074
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 0.667
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.111
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.222
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.037
> *Stunned:* 0.056
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.056
> *Immobilized:* 0.056
> *Wrecked:* 0.056
> *Explodes:* 0.074
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


Okay, the Railgun looks better to destroy a AV14 vehicle, BUT normally you wouldn't shoot with just one Psycannon. A normal Strike Squad can carry two of them and a Purgation Squad even 4. That would change the result in:

2 Psycannons:



> *Hits:* 5.333
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.296
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.593
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.247
> *Stunned:* 0.148
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.148
> *Immobilized:* 0.148
> *Wrecked:* 0.099
> *Explodes:* 0.099


4 Psycannons:



> *Hits:* 10.667
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.593
> *Penetration Hits:* 1.185
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.494
> *Stunned:* 0.296
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.296
> *Immobilized:* 0.296
> *Wrecked:* 0.198
> *Explodes:* 0.198


That changes the whole thing. Also don't forget that the Railgun is just one shot. So if you miss, you don't inflict any damage at all. With the Psycannons you have multiple shots.


----------



## sybarite

> *Shooting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Shots:* 1
> *Hit Chance:* 66.67%
> *Hits:* 0.667
> *Glancing Chance:* 16.67%
> *Penetration Chance:* 16.67%
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.111
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.111
> *Shaken:* 0.074
> *Stunned:* 0.037
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.037
> *Immobilized:* 0.037
> *Wrecked:* 0.019
> *Explodes:* 0.019
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 0.667
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.111
> *Penetration Hits:* 0.111
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.074
> *Stunned:* 0.037
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.037
> *Immobilized:* 0.037
> *Wrecked:* 0.019
> *Explodes:* 0.019
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


this was with a lascannon as you can see a Psycannon is on par with most ati tank.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> WTF?! Now I can't start it. It now tells me preloading is complete and that once the game is released I will be able to play it. Says it unlocks in 2 days and a few hours. I have already been playing it for over 5 hours, I played it just 3 hours ago! WTF is this shit?


That's because the game was incorrectly unlocked early in some regions.


----------



## Mathai

Yeah, if a Psycannon has any possibility at all of penetrating even 14 armor, I think with the proliferation amongst Grey Knight units it has then you dont really need much more than it for ranged anti tanking. A few Lascannons and Meltas will be nice for flavor, but beyond this its really not necesarry for anything except maybe a Monolith.

That being said, without some close combat options for taking on vehicles, there will be a big gap in Grey Knight strategies I believe.


----------



## Winterous

Champion Alaric said:


> :stop::grin: It was a joke and you fell for it sucka! lol
> 
> and i had a feelin it was gonna be you too..now go upstairs and ask your mom for a hug to release some hostility


You sly bastard! +rep
:laugh:



Mathai said:


> Meh I gave up on Dawn of War 2 a while ago. Its very pretty, but every time I played a round, I started to think about it I then started to think about the original and how good it was up to Dark Crusade, and all the flaws in it come out so badly for me.


Hah!
The original DOW was pretty bad if you ask me, the base building never suited the 40k universe at all.
What they've got in DOW2 is MUCH smaller scale, and makes a lot more sense.


----------



## coke123

Mathai said:


> Yeah, if a Psycannon has any possibility at all of penetrating even 14 armor, I think with the proliferation amongst Grey Knight units it has then you dont really need much more than it for ranged anti tanking. A few Lascannons and Meltas will be nice for flavor, but beyond this its really not necesarry for anything except maybe a Monolith.


Last time I checked monoliths are immune to melta, aren't they? Meaning melta guns are useless... Meaning Lascannons. Or just do what everyone else does; ignore or suppress it and then phase them out.



Mathai said:


> That being said, without some close combat options for taking on vehicles, there will be a big gap in Grey Knight strategies I believe.


Am I the only one thinking that Dreadknights with personal teleporters+Suppression fire (in the form of psycannons) will be plenty to take on AV 14? 

Besides, it's a little early to judge the Knights on their anti-tank capabilities, seeing as how we still don't know what half their wargear does- there's a few new grenade options- who's to say there's no haywire equivalent? We don't know for sure what most of the dreadknight weapons do (and I'm personally beginning to suspect that the heavy psycannon will be higher strength, and maybe shorter range), and we have no clue what the psilencer does. What if the anti-tank is hidden amongst these options?


----------



## Mathai

Oh nonono, you misunderstand. I'm not complaining at all about any of it. =) And I am positive that when its all said and done the codex will be quite playable.

All I was saying was that they have plenty of ranged AV, but not alot of close combat AV from what I have seen so far. Yes, they Dreadknight will do nicely. But I hope they have a few more choices in the end. One of those new grenades could very well do it, and I would love it if they did.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

2 questions:
-is psycannon S7? I read S6 with a bit different profile on other websites
-is the release going to be on the 2nd april? 

thx


----------



## Synack

Brother Siegfrid said:


> 2 questions:
> -is psycannon S7? I read S6 with a bit different profile on other websites


Katie confirmed that it was S7 AP4 rending, make of that what you will.


----------



## Synack

BramGaunt over on bolter has said that Black Boxes will be arriving in stores some time next week. We should expect pictures / pre-orders too next week.


----------



## coke123

Frank Fugger said:


> I don't know; does anyone else play people whose Land Raiders move less than 7" per turn?


Happens all the time- or are you not familiar with immobilised results, or people wanting to fire an LRC at full effect? Hence I said Dreadknights+ Suppression fire. The psycannons stop the bastard moving so the dreadknight can move in for the kill next turn. There isn't that much AV14 in the game, and one unit of purifiers (or a purgation squad, but purifiers have the additional benefit of potentially being troops) with 4 psycannons should average at least one penetrate accompanied by a probable glance on av14 if stationary. So on a 5+ you've destroyed it, and on a 4 it's next to dead on the pen roll, and then there's always the glancing hit. Seems reasonable enough.



Frank Fugger said:


> If his anti-tank capability is limited to CC then unless there is a lot of it (as in, at least 20 Krak grenade attacks) or he gets a piece of wargear allowing him to bypass the mechanics that make it almost impossible to hit a moving vehicle with a swinging fist, his anti-armour potential will be low. That seems like a fair judgement to me, wargear stats or no wargear stats.


But you don't know that the anti-tank (and when i say this I really mean anti AV14, or screw it, just anti-landraider) is all in CC. We have no idea what regular psilencers do. We only have a vague idea of what the heavy incinerator and the gatling psilencer does, and again we have no clue about the heavy psycannon. Then there is melta available on Stormravens, Dreads (venerable or regular) and henchmen, so if you really can't get over your obsession with melta, you can still use it. So it's not a fair judgement.


----------



## Platton725

Frank Fugger said:


> It was that cartoon where the little dude is screaming "FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU-".
> 
> 
> 
> They're not bad. Nobody is saying they are bad. My objection is that we've been down this "Hey look it's better than a Railgun!" road before with everything from Assault Cannons to Thunderwolf Cavalry, and no matter which way you slice it it's a pile of garbage.


Only people bad at math will come to this conclusion. Also, you may note that the initial post was "almost as good", not "as good" which a few posters using the combat calculator has backed us up with.



Frank Fugger said:


> Why? Because Railguns do one thing and one thing alone, and they tend to be backed up by Pulse Carbines, Missile Pods, Plasma, Kroot Guns and Burst Cannons. Your Psycannon will be backed up with... more Psycannons, or if you're lucky/ smart some actual anti-armour weapons leaving the Psycannon to do what it does best; wound all known infantry on a 2+ and Rend some wounds into MEQs.
> 
> Can you turn it on vehicles in a pinch? Sure, and the fact it's a Rending weapon means it's likely to be more successful than, say, Plasma Guns when pressed into service against armour.


You've forgot the best thing about railguns. They come in an army which has markerlights. Increasing BS to 5 (on HHs) and lowering cover saves is where it's at. A railgun is a terrific (the best Long range) AT weapon. The Psycannon is not leagues after though, like for example the Lascannon.

It looks to me like you're complaining about the fact that the Psycannon is both good AT and AP (pretty damn excellent 4+ or worse AP). So, a weapon which is good at two things is worse than a weapon only good at one thing? (For example Broadside Railgun or Lascannon. HH railgun comes with submunition, i guess that makes it strictly worse than a Broadside Railgun.... )



Frank Fugger said:


> Should you be relying on them as your main anti-tank weapons because they are better than a Railgun when taken in multiples? I don't see it. What's shooting at infantry in that case?


Again, because you CAN shoot both infantry and Vehicles with it, albeit in many cases you kill more stuff if you shoot infantry considering all your stormbolters, it's a poor AT weapon? The good thing about weapons like this (the closest thing that comes to mind is the 4th edition Assault cannon, which is the premier AT weapon of all time when combined with the yummy tank hunter skill) is that it is versatile. So you can identify which target that needs priority and shoot that one.



Frank Fugger said:


> The fact remains that if I hit you (which, given Railguns come mounted on either a BS4 vehicle or a Twin-Linked Broadside suit, is the more likely outcome) I'm far more likely to do damage due to not relying on a D3 to penetrate heavy armour and gaining +1 to my damage rolls thanks to AP1.


Noone is arguing that hit for hit a railgun is more effective than a Psycannon. However, a Psycannon gets 4 times the shots, which leads to less risk of bad rollage. What you lack in quality, you make up for with quantity, which leads to better being able to anticipate the results. Rolling more dice is always good.



Frank Fugger said:


> Yes. Flavour. I would quite like my army to taste of "reliably damaging vehicles without the need for Rending".
> 
> I don't know about you, but when people come to throw grenades at my vehicles I tend to, y'know, move the bastards. Hit me on a 6+; do it, doofus! Your monster only has 4 attacks? Don't fancy those odds much.
> 
> Not having the ability to deal with vehicles in CC doesn't leave a gap in your strategy, because you should never be in a position to deal with vehicles in CC anyway and if you are you'll find that Krak grenades do a fine job. Please, people; don't take Dreadknights to kill vehicles in CC. That makes baby Emperor sad.
> 
> I don't know; does anyone else play people whose Land Raiders move less than 7" per turn?
> 
> If his anti-tank capability is limited to CC then unless there is a lot of it (as in, at least 20 Krak grenade attacks) or he gets a piece of wargear allowing him to bypass the mechanics that make it almost impossible to hit a moving vehicle with a swinging fist, his anti-armour potential will be low. That seems like a fair judgement to me, wargear stats or no wargear stats.


I guess you've missed the part of the rulebook which says that a vehicle which is immobilized is hit automatically in CC? Yes, you will not get such a result every time you shoot something, but if you have a well-armed dreadnought/dreadknight which shoots - immos, then assaults your precious vehicle, you're in for a world of hurt. So moving a LR 7" is in no way an automatic immunity to CC. Hey, even a Stun will make you hit it rather well in your opponents assault phase if he hasn't bought extra armour (unlikely on a Land Raider, quite likely on a Rhino).


EDIT: Coke123 ninja'ed me! Bastard. +rep.


----------



## Synack

Frank Fugger said:


> Also the Meltagun Henchmen actually have combi-weapons, not Meltaguns. BS3 combi-weapons. Looks like I'll be needing those Heavy slots after all.


Accolytes can have combi-meltas OR meltas.


----------



## coke123

Frank Fugger said:


> Grab a bunch of dice and figure out just how many of them you'd have to roll on average to stop a Land Raider with some Psycannons. Then, bearing that number in mind, and remembering that idiots don't run Land Raiders without cover and Extra Armour, tell me if you think it would be enough to stop the Land Raider dumping it's cargo all over your backfield inside three turns.
> 
> When you've done that, tell me why I shouldn't just take look elsewhere instead of wasting two of my units pursuing some spurious 'tactic' that is more likely to fail than it is to work. I don't think it's possible to fire 4 BS3 Meltaguns at a Land Raider and not do some damage, but even if it is it's still markedly cheaper than a Dreadknight and suppressing fire.


I did. 16 shots. That's what I based those earlier numbers on. That's one stationary purifier unit's worth. I also realise that people rarely run Land Raiders without EA, hence if you read my post you'll note that I completely ignored stunned results.

I don't really see how a single unit of henchmen is any more reliable, seeing as it's all too easy to pop the chimera and leave them stranded. Or dead from even bolter fire. Unless you're using Coteaz, I guess then you can spam them.



Frank Fugger said:


> Why would I be "obsessed" with Melta over pretty much any of the other apparent options available, do you think? Because it scores penetating hits more often? It does, but you need to be within 6" for that to work otherwise it hits like a Missile Launcher, so it's not all about that.
> 
> Why else, then? I was talking with someone else about it a few pages back. Think I mentioned it in my last post, in fact.


Considering that the melta you're talking about is on a BS3 platform, and obviously has fewer shots, I don't really see how it scores more penetrating hits. Since we're arguing about AV14, statistically speaking there's two hits, and you need a 7 to penetrate (this is all assuming the four melta shots you mentioned earlier). You'd be lucky to get more penetrating hits than a psycannon, from weapons which are 1/6 the range (considering you need to be within 6" for melta to mean anything). And it's oh-so easy to demech that one pivotal unit...




Frank Fugger said:


> Also the Meltagun Henchmen actually have combi-weapons, not Meltaguns. BS3 combi-weapons. Looks like I'll be needing those Heavy slots after all.


Check again buddy, Warrior Acolytes can take plain old melta, plasma or flamer for the same amount as their combi-weapons



Frank Fugger said:


> What I'm saying is that close combat against vehicles is fail, and thus if the Dreadknight is relying on close combat to beat AV14 then it's anti-tank capabilities are situational at best.
> 
> IF it's relying on close combat. If it isn't then hey, great, let's all take Dreadknights. If it is, then it's bad.


But it really isn't that bad. When the vehicle's suppressed you're autohitting, chucking hammerhand on means 5 (due to charging) S8 attacks that get 2d6 armour penentration. According to the calculator, that's three (2.9, near enough) penetrating hits. So on average the raider's dead. and then you've got those lovely psycannons which can be turned against infantry as well.


----------



## jimbo1701

Think I'm going to try and squeeze in an inquisitor + warband and an assassin into every 2000pt game I have just to try out some options. Came up with a fairly nasty chimera combo the other day:

Inquisitor + PML1/hammerhand
3 death cult assassins
3 servitors _ servo arms
3 crusaders
2 acolytes + storm bolters
Chimera

Coming in at around 250 pts (uncluding the inquisitor and chimera) it should deal a painful blow on the charge, while having enough IV saves and a few ablative wounds to survive the return blows. Vs MEQ, the DCAs themselves should take down half a squad in conjunction with HH before any retaliation. Only things to consider are adequate delivery into battle and how it would perform compared to say a unit of terminators or a teleporting strike squad? Though those squads have more firepower, I think you still get good assault potential with these guys, though they will possibly not be as durable depending upon what you come up against in CC. (23 s4+ PW attacks plus 2 servo arms and 8 normal attacks, Vs 15 S4+ PW attacks for the terminators and 21 for the strike squad)


----------



## Champion Alaric

Winterous said:


> You sly bastard! +rep
> :laugh:


Good Im glad you can take a joke. I only did it cuz of this ->http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83157 hilarious and o so true thread. Never meant nothin by the mom joke as it was part of the thread (and also one of the oldest "insults" on the net..and rarely true anymore) along with the mentioning of the same thing (no pw from fw lol) and totally pointless exposition (the first paragraph i wrote). Seriously this thread has allll the stuff in that post I linked. And I knew it was gonna be you or one other guy cuz you said it before not cuz i think ill of ya...unfortunately not everyone, ahem sybarite , can take a joke.

so anyways back on topic.


----------



## Platton725

Frank Fugger said:


> Did you actually roll those dice, or is this the "average" you're talking about?
> 
> The bare fact of the matter is, when you need to roll a 6 to make something happen, be it Rending or close combat tank-killing, that "something" is not a something that you can rely on no matter what the "averages" say.


----------



## bonedale

If Psycannons are truly S7 AP4 Rending, then I would take them over Railguns, Lascannons, anything. 2 psycannons in a strike squad, 8 shots, at either armor, or troops, or elites. Talk about flexibility. GKs are still going to be king of all around tactical flexibility, but now we have AT, hell yes. 

If you want BS3 meltas, play IG. Again, if you need meltas, something has already gone wrong.

CC AT is a pain in any army. Frankly, if you're punching a LR, then your opponent has already achieved what they wanted. Before we have to rely on godhammers, and shooty dreads.

Psycannon, one gun to rule them all!


----------



## Winterous

Champion Alaric said:


> Good Im glad you can take a joke. I only did it cuz of this ->http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83157 hilarious and o so true thread.


You could have stopped there :laugh:


----------



## Champion Alaric

Lol I know but I wanted to make sure u knew there was no ill will :biggrin:


----------



## Mortigar

Manager at my local store said that the models etc should be up for pre-order next wednesday.


----------



## GrizBe

Mortigar said:


> Manager at my local store said that the models etc should be up for pre-order next wednesday.


Mine did too. Pre-orders should be up on the 9th, and the black box should be in stores on the 11th.

Shame that day clashes with Dragon Age 2 being out for me... lol.


----------



## Zero Effect

GrizBe said:


> Mine did too. Pre-orders should be up on the 9th, and the black box should be in stores on the 11th.
> 
> Shame that day clashes with Dragon Age 2 being out for me... lol.





Mortigar said:


> Manager at my local store said that the models etc should be up for pre-order next wednesday.


I also have been told this. Really excited now, only a week to go and knowing our luck the site will crash with all the pre orders going to be placed.

Yes I know I have said it, :laugh:

ZE


----------



## sybarite

Zero Effect said:


> and knowing our luck the site will crash with all the pre orders going to be placed.
> ZE


*touching wood* lets hope not, but l do have a feeling its going to get a bigger response then DE when they came out.


----------



## oiad

Would hope so too but I'm more doubtful. DE tend to have a weird cult-like appeal to 40k veterans whereas many unfortunately look at GKs and say 'what, another SM codex?.. :angry:', which isn't really fair. Happy to be wrong here, knowing that other factors also play a part. e.g. awesomeness of the models.


----------



## Brovius

oiad said:


> many unfortunately look at GKs and say 'what, another SM codex?.. :angry:', which isn't really fair.


I never really got this.
Grey Knights are as different from Vanilla Space Marines as CSM are. We aren't going to have anyone complaining about "more overpowereed SM codices" when CSM get a rerelease, are we?


----------



## GrizBe

Well considering that the DE rumour thread only got a couple of hundred posts, and this GK one has had thousands... I don't think theres much doubt that the GK's have a much bigger folowing the De ever did.


----------



## coke123

Frank Fugger said:


> Did you actually roll those dice, or is this the "average" you're talking about?


Nope, I didn't roll those dice, because that would be silly and would prove very little. In fact, it wouldn't mean a damn thing, unless I rolled hundreds and thousands of dice, at which point results would tend towards the calculated average anyway...



Frank Fugger said:


> The bare fact of the matter is, when you need to roll a 6 to make something happen, be it Rending or close combat tank-killing, that "something" is not a something that you can rely on no matter what the "averages" say. Bearing in mind that it will take a Land Raider 3 turns max to get from his own table edge (by which I mean the actual edge of the table) into Terminator-vomiting range of your backfield, and he's highly likely to have cover for at least one of those turns thanks to Smoke, you need to know that whatever you chuck at the bugger has an appreciable chance of stopping him cold; and you need to do it with as little effort as possible. After all, it's not just the Land Raider you'll have to deal with.


So I've got three turns to suppress them. If I discount one turn for the smoke, I should still average somewhere around 3 penetrating hits before the raider hits my lines. Besides, I'm not relying on a single roll of six. I'm rolling somewhere in the vicinity of eleven dice, only one or two of which really need to come up sixes. Those are very good odds indeed. And there is not that much effort involved- it's one squad's shooting, and then an MCs assault phase. And when you consider that most land raiders are ferrying termies, I'm using about 500pts to stop around 500pts- so it's not really an inordinate amount of firepower.



Frank Fugger said:


> So, instead of trying to rely on something you can't rely on and potentially wasting most of your cross-table shooting (and your Monster's assault phase) depserately trying to stop a Raider, what you do is you bite the bullet and bring along something you CAN rely on, like cheap-ass Meltaguns in a Rhino.


I don't really count a single unit of BS3 meltaguns in a chimera as more reliable than what I'm suggesting (let alone some in a rhino). It's oh-so easy to stop their transport with riflemen dreads, or to just plain old blow it up with a Lascannon. Same goes for assault cannons



Frank Fugger said:


> They don't replace Psycannons. They're not even "better". They're apples and oranges, and as such you need both in your army.


Agreed. You'd be mad to have Psycannons as your only anti-tank. I'm just suggesting that there's more readily available options in the leaked codex than henchmen.



Frank Fugger said:


> Because logic is hard.


Not really getting at what you're saying here- he brings up a perfectly valid, logical and correct point, and you question his logic?



bonedale said:


> If Psycannons are truly S7 AP4 Rending, then I would take them over Railguns, Lascannons, anything. 2 psycannons in a strike squad, 8 shots, at either armor, or troops, or elites. Talk about flexibility. GKs are still going to be king of all around tactical flexibility, but now we have AT, hell yes.


Remember that one of the big strengths of Strike Squads will be their mobility- I wouldn't be taking their 8 shots when I can have them move as jump infantry. I'd much rather have purifier squads as troops courtesy of crowe with four psycannons as my static fire (16 shots FTW!) and then have my strike squads running around, firing fewer psycannon shots and claiming objectives/pissing off deep strikers.



bonedale said:


> If you want BS3 meltas, play IG. Again, if you need meltas, something has already gone wrong.


Now, now, meltas are still a high effective way of dealing with armour. It's just that you'll need a more inquisitorial army rather than GK



bonedale said:


> CC AT is a pain in any army. Frankly, if you're punching a LR, then your opponent has already achieved what they wanted. Before we have to rely on godhammers, and shooty dreads.


It's only a pain because armies that rely on it generally don't have the ranged firepower to suppress (see tyranids, daemons) and hence make it easy to hit in CC.



bonedale said:


> Psycannon, one gun to rule them all!


Yeah, unlikely. A very awesome, tactically flexible gun, but you're still going to need attacks capable of 2D6 armour penetration, or at S10 (and probably ap1, or else with a good rate of fire) to take down Land Raiders.


----------



## sybarite

l have to agree with Coke on transport like rhinos or chimera.
This is due to every man and his dog running melta guns in them, you can tell what he is going to do. All you have to do is use any of your ati - tank to stop it.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Shit I didn't realise Purifier squads could take 4 special weapons,I thought it was left to the Purgation squads.So whats the point of Purgation squads???Is that whats being implied when you calculated your 16 shots?

Just wondering what other people are guessing for Heavy Psilencer/Psycannon stats?
My guess's-Heavy: Psilencer 12x S5 AP- range 24"
: Psycannon 4x S8 AP1 range 36"


----------



## gally912

I personally can't even grasp a S7 AP4 Rending 4 on a BS4 model. It sounds like something out of a fandex, to be honest.


----------



## bonedale

gally912 said:


> I personally can't even grasp a S7 AP4 Rending 4 on a BS4 model. It sounds like something out of a fandex, to be honest.


Exactly, it is incredible, or stupid depending on your point of view, but it is far superior to ML, LC, Assault C, Auto C, you name it. THere isn't a better gun in the game. When the old rending rules were D6 added, the assault cannon ruled, and for good reason. You could point it at a LR, temi squad, or a hoard. The only downside was range. Enter psycannon. If long fangs could take psycannons, you wouldn't see a ML ever again. And few can deny they are the greatest heavy unit in the game and yet, the ML is chosen over the LC.

Anti-tank talk always turns into anti-LR talk, or anti-monlith talk. That's like anti-troop talk turning into anti-termie w/SS talk. Well, LRs will always be a problem, period. If you have somehow solved it, then you have seriously sacrificed your entire army for a model that you will rarely face multiples of. 

I hear people want meltas, or thunderhammers, etc. I say keep them out. I want GKs to be a difficult army to play and unique. But frankly it isn't looking that tough. You're not going to get into too much trouble with rhinos and psycannons. So I think it is going to become a very forgiving dex. 

We don't have the hidden PW, or combi-melta, but those are not typically used on tanks, they are what surprises a HQ, or MC that assaults what appears to be a harmless troop squad. Well, GKs have that covered.


----------



## sybarite

Lucian Kain said:


> Just wondering what other people are guessing for Heavy Psilencer/Psycannon stats?
> My guess's-Heavy: Psilencer 12x S5 AP- range 24"
> : Psycannon 4x S8 AP1 range 36"


Psilencer = no idea

Psycannon l can see as a S8 but odds are it won't be AP 1 due to keeping the game balance.

if l was to take a guess 4 to 6 shots, S8 AP4 range 48.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

AP1 Psycannons??? That would be insane! I think it is more like S8 AP3 Heavy4


----------



## Winterous

Lucian Kain said:


> Shit I didn't realise Purifier squads could take 4 special weapons,I thought it was left to the Purgation squads.So whats the point of Purgation squads???Is that whats being implied when you calculated your 16 shots?


It was a mistake, he meant Purgation


----------



## Synack

I wonder if the heavy psycannon has 2 firing mode, one high rate of fire option and one blast option.

Would tie in with the old psycannon rumour stats.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Synack said:


> I wonder if the heavy psycannon has 2 firing mode, one high rate of fire option and one blast option.
> 
> Would tie in with the old psycannon rumour stats.


Its got me thinking about the Psilencer could it be,basically an "assault" Heavy Bolter with Hellfire/tyranic war vet type Heavy1 Blast option...Hmmmzies

Then what Blast round would a Psilencer use some sort of null zone/rod effect...
maybe some sort of grenade launcher...

@Akhara'Keth:Quote: AP1 Psycannons??? That would be insane! I think it is more like S8 AP3 Heavy4

Thats what I'm looking for...


----------



## Vanchet

I honestly think it'll just be the assault 2/heavy 4 mode-It's only blessed, silver bolter shells


----------



## RedemptionNL

Lucian Kain said:


> Shit I didn't realise Purifier squads could take 4 special weapons,I thought it was left to the Purgation squads.So whats the point of Purgation squads???Is that whats being implied when you calculated your 16 shots?


The biggest differences would be that Purgations squads have Astral Aim, only need 5 man instead of a full squad to buy 4 special weapons and that they're HS instead of Elites. That means the 4 Psycannon Purifier squad is at least 280, verses the 180 point minimum for a 4 Psycannon Purgation squad.

Of course, Purgation squads get better melee stats, are Fearless and buy special weapons with a discount.



Lucian Kain said:


> Just wondering what other people are guessing for Heavy Psilencer/Psycannon stats?
> My guess's-Heavy: Psilencer 12x S5 AP- range 24"
> : Psycannon 4x S8 AP1 range 36"


Seeing as most Imperial weapons with the Heavy prefix add 1 to the Strength and increase the Armour Penetration by 1, I'd guess the S8 AP3 as well. Question would be how many shots? I'd guess around 4 myself.



Winterous said:


> It was a mistake, he meant Purgation


No, both Purgation and Purifier squads can take 4 special weapons, unless that changed in the final dex.


----------



## coke123

Lucian Kain said:


> Shit I didn't realise Purifier squads could take 4 special weapons,I thought it was left to the Purgation squads.So whats the point of Purgation squads???Is that whats being implied when you calculated your 16 shots?


They sure can! for every five purifiers, you may take two special weapons :biggrin: Gotta love Crowe!

The point of purgation squads is two things- a) they have astral aim, and hence can fire without LoS, and b) They can take four special weapons with a basic four-man squad, meaning they're a more cost-effective way of including more psycannons, even though you'd need a GM in order to make them scoring (and not to mention that you'd be giving up the scout move).



Lucian Kain said:


> Just wondering what other people are guessing for Heavy Psilencer/Psycannon stats?
> My guess's-Heavy: Psilencer 12x S5 AP- range 24"
> : Psycannon 4x S8 AP1 range 36"


When you say heavy psilencer, I assume you mean the mysterious gatling psilencer for the dreadknight? In which case there was a rumour floating around of a gatling weapon to the tune of S5 ap- Heavy 12. Yes, 12. That is not a typo. Could be wrong, obviously, but hey, that's what rumours are all about.

As for the psycannon, I'm certainly hoping for at least S8, with a reasonable rate of fire.

As for range on both weapons, I personally have the feeling that they''l be quite short ranged- this is based mostly on the inordinately large cost of a personal teleporter for the Dreadknight.



Winterous said:


> It was a mistake, he meant Purgation


No mistake, I meant what I said


----------



## RedemptionNL

coke123 said:


> even though you'd need a GM in order to make them scoring (and not to mention that you'd be giving up the scout move).


Well you need to buy Crowe or a Grandmaster for Purifiers to become scoring, so that's pretty equal, seeing as Crowe is almost as expensive as a vanilla GM. The only issue I'd see is that free Heavy Support slots seem to a rarer commodity than free Elites/Troops slots, with Dreadknights, Purgation Squads, Land Raiders and maybe a Dreadnought for the long range psychic defense taking up slots quickly.


----------



## Brovius

Frank Fugger said:


> And you can't see how this proves my point about averages?
> 
> Over hundreds of thousands of dice rolls the average will bear out, but you're not going to kill or Immobilise a Land Raider with every 16 Psycannon shots.


Yeah, averages are by no means a way to calculate the rough effectiveness of a weapon.
I just rolled 16 dice, and I got 7 hits, of which two rended and both only glanced. Psycannons are sh!t against AV14, because my one dice roll was terrible.

Just rolled for a single Assault Cannon. Got 4 hits, three rends and a penetrate, which wrecked the Land Raider. Assault Cannons are, and always will be, the destroyer of worlds! :victory:

[/sarcasm]

Averages are exactly that. Average. There are results below and above it. As the mathletes in this thread have pointed out, Psycannons are statistically better at dealing with AV14, and are pretty on-par with the legendary Railgun.
So what if you aren't guaranteed to destroy a LR with every burst of Psycannons?
Space Marines don't always fail every 1-in-3 armour saves. BUT ODDS ARE THEY WILL.
It's called probability, and the probability is that around half the time, Psycannons will penetrate against AV14.

Can you please stop being so millitant about your love for meltaguns?
They are a handy and powerful anti-tank weapon, but are very situational due to their short range. Psycannons have more utility due to their higher fire rate and longer range, the first of which was calculated into it's improved performance over many other anti-tank weapons. The latter, on the other hand, was not. You will have more chances to fire more rounds into said LR, which can lead to a LR that blows up before the Melta squad even get within 12" of the vehicle.

The LR could also withstand all shots until it delivers it's cargo. It could possibly shrug off 10 meltaguns entirely. That is why we calculate effectiveness on AVERAGES.
If we are to by a single dice roll in a closed trial, we could have an SM player who never uses THSS Terminators because he lost in combat against some Fire Warriors this one time.
Unpredictability makes the game fun, and if you don't agree with that statement, then why are you even playing?

(Not intending to sound mean in that last sentence, but you are coming across as a bit of a powergamer IMO)


----------



## Synack

Successful troll is successful


----------



## coke123

Frank Fugger said:


> And you can't see how this proves my point about averages?
> 
> Over hundreds of thousands of dice rolls the average will bear out, but you're not going to kill or Immobilise a Land Raider with every 16 Psycannon shots.


No I don't really see how that proves your point at all. If I'd rolled nothing but sixes on that lot of rolling, would you have accepted that this method is better? Of course not.

And the same could be said for meltaguns- sure, you're going to penetrate a fair bit, but there are times where you're going to miss completely, are going to roll less than the necessary 7 to glance on all hits, and times when the target will pass all of it's cover saves. In order to fairly compare the two different methods, you have to pick a reference point for each- and the best reference point is their averages, as it is the outcome that one would expect. The 'it could fail, so therefore it's shit' argument doesn't really make any sense- since it can be said about everything. Not every three melta shots (or however many you're using, I'm just using IG vets as an example) are gonna pop that Land Raider.



Frank Fugger said:


> But... whatever. I remember having this exact argument about a similar 'tactic' when the Blood Angels book was leaked, except instead of Psycannons it involved spamming TLAssCans on Razorbacks and running Furiosos alongside to do the CCing. The current prevalence of that particular army build demonstrates my faith in this proposition.


Not really the same thing- to start with, BA melta can get in your opponent's face quite easily, and is way more readily available than that in the leaked codex. So there's no need for Assault Cannons. Secondly, Assault cannons are S6- Psycannons are S7. That's huge. Thirdly, you can't have up to four Assault cannon equivalents in a single (potentially troops) squad- in fact I can't think of any infantry apart from terminators that can take them off the top of my head. Thirdly, a psycannon costs 25pts less than an assault cannon, and that's ignoring the razorback you're taking to gain access to it (I'm going off the vanilla codex, as I don't have the BA codex at home). Fourth, Furiosos are easier to stop (or suppress) than Dreadknights- and Dreadknights are faster as well when equipped with personal teleporters, and have more attacks (at least I think- not a BA expert). Sixth, BA don't require an HQ choice to grant them access to a single cheap melta unit.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Statistics can be very powerful is used correctly, however, most people have trouble reading them correctly.

For example, the averages for multi-shot weapons like the Assault Cannon or the Psycannon; most people fail to realize that these averages are skewed upwards because of the possiblilty to score redundant penetrating hits. Getting 2-4 vehicle destroyed results on a single salvo is possible, which increases the average number of destroyed results, but didn't actually increase your average number of destroyed vehicles per salvo.

That being said, if the Psycannon is indeed the rumoured S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending, it's a very good anti-tank weapon. Yes a single BS4 S10 AP1 Railgun has a better chance of killing an AV14 vehicle than a single BS4 Psycannon in one salvo, but it also has a much smaller chance of scoring a Shaken/Stunned/Immobilised/Weapon Destroyed result. 

And of course the melta weapons blow the Psycannon out of the water when targetting a Landraider, but they also have to do it from 12" or 6" to get that result, which means you either have to Deepstrike or move across the board to get your target, which usually make it suicide units. 

Considering if choosing to fire your Psycannons at a Landraider is a sound tactical decision will depend on your battlefield situtation. If you don't have a something heavier like a Vindicare handy, and the Landraider or its contents form a high risk against your army, you certainly could do a whole lot worse.


----------



## coke123

^^Well said. I can't stress enough that I'm not saying that a single round of fire will guaranteedly (if that is a real word) deal with the raider (although it can). I'm just saying that there's very good odds of it working. In fact, have some rep.


----------



## Dagmire

Well this is going from a rumors thread to a tactica about a codex then non of us are 100% sure about.
How about you make a topic named "tatica for the up coming GK codex" and take your debates there?
I am all for having a friendly chat about what "could" be in the dex but this is just taking us even more off topic.
D


----------



## Champion Alaric

So how tall do you guys think the Dreadknight will be? Like to scale, 5"? I looked at the leaked pics and it seems like its as tall as a Greater Daemon.


----------



## Dagmire

i think about as tall as a 2 rhinos put together ?


----------



## Lesiu

I'd say it's around the same hight as the flying base of stormraven/valkyrie so yes, around 5". (based on the blurry army picture posted here)


----------



## GrizBe

I'm with Dagmire on the debate... Its stupid arguing over things that aren't even confirmed yet. 


As for the Dreadknight, yeah... Its about twice the heigh of a rhino, or 3 times the height of a marine. Soo 5" is probably about right.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Sweet thanks guys. Nice to know. Im not wild aboot the model so Ive been lookin at actual Gundam kits and whatnot. I like the contours on the Gundams alot more and it shouldnt be too hard to cram a GK in the belly lol.


----------



## GrizBe

I quite like it myself... and it doesn't look too hard to addjust and modify.


----------



## Champion Alaric

He just looks so much like Optimus Prime in that blurry pic..hopefully it will look better to my eyes in the uh flesh


----------



## HatingYou

model it riding a carnifex!


----------



## Synack

Saw this on Bols forum, thought it might deserve a repost




LittleBird said:


> I showed a certain PDF file to someone inside GW. He said that the PDF is ~5 months old, and the codex has been cleaned up a lot. The wording in many parts has been changed and made clearer, but it's more or less correct. He thought some of the point values may have been tweaked but he wasn't sure.


----------



## Lesiu

It's too early to judge it. Dreadknight might look a lot better when we see some details. Also it's very static in those pictures but since it's a plastic kit you should be able to adjust the position - look kneeling/running wraithlords. I know it won't change the actual model but it can do miracles to the overall lookk:


----------



## LuLzForTheLuLzGoD

The cost is what worries me:/

new model 50 pounds!!

lets hope not


----------



## MadCowCrazy

LuLzForTheLuLzGoD said:


> The cost is what worries me:/
> 
> new model 50 pounds!!
> 
> lets hope not


I bet it will be in the same price range as the stormraven or valkyrie. 35-45£ I would think they are going to charge for it.


----------



## GrizBe

I'd have thought more like the price of a complicated dreadnaught, since it looks 'thinner' and has similar options without all the different fronts needed.... its on a par with a penitant engine construction wise, but it'll be plastic I'm hoping...

I'm hoping got £20 -£25 myself, but i'm guessing it'll cost teh same as a furioso.


----------



## coke123

Frank Fugger said:


> So why are we arguing?


I think at one point someone was bitching about a complete lack of anti-tank in the codex, period, and it sort of developed from there. I guess my main problem is that the cheap melta relies on HQ choices to unlock them, and I'd rather be using those slots on Crowe/Librarians- hence I'm looking for alternatives. I probably haven't explained this well enough. But according to other posts on this very thread, apparently it has been cleaned up, so the argument is getting a little old



Dagmire said:


> Well this is going from a rumors thread to a tactica about a codex then non of us are 100% sure about.
> How about you make a topic named "tatica for the up coming GK codex" and take your debates there?
> I am all for having a friendly chat about what "could" be in the dex but this is just taking us even more off topic.
> D





GrizBe said:


> I'm with Dagmire on the debate... Its stupid arguing over things that aren't even confirmed yet.


Yeah, fair enough. It has gotten a little out of hand. It's pretty clear that we're both bashing our heads against brick walls... might just be time to leave it at that.

As for the Dreadknight's price, I'm thinking somwhere along a similar vein to the Tyranind MC kits, so like 70-85 dollars australian. Which of course will probably be a fiver for the rest of the world


----------



## Brovius

coke123 said:


> As for the Dreadknight's price, I'm thinking somwhere along a similar vein to the Tyranind MC kits, so like 70-85 dollars australian. Which of course will probably be a fiver for the rest of the world


That, my friend, is why I buy from Maelstrom Games


----------



## Judas Masias

If anything i'm hopeing that it's priced around the same as a wrathlord. Reguardless i'm going to have 3 in my army.


----------



## rasolyo

GrizBe said:


> As for the Dreadknight, yeah... Its about twice the heigh of a rhino, or 3 times the height of a marine. Soo 5" is probably about right.


Another 1.5 inches and it's about as tall as a Keeper of Secrets. That's tall!


----------



## Keecai

GrizBe said:


> I'd have thought more like the price of a complicated dreadnaught, since it looks 'thinner' and has similar options without all the different fronts needed.... its on a par with a penitant engine construction wise, but it'll be plastic I'm hoping...
> 
> I'm hoping got £20 -£25 myself, but i'm guessing it'll cost teh same as a furioso.


I think its gonna be more than that, my guess would be £35-45, especially if all the rumours and stats we have seen so far a re correct, it looks like GW are setting up to make some good sales from this product.
If you look back over the thread and others at peoples proposed army lists you will see an aweful lot of Dreadknights in them. 
GW is definately gonna cash in on this regardless of the size or complexity of the model. (dreadnought kits for example are less complex than some far cheaper kits out there, new DE for example, but the price does not reflect this)


----------



## Dynamike

I don't know if there are others like me but I am personally looking to do a shooting army with the GKs. I have orks right now and frankly, they have a few toys to shoot with but as we pretty much all know, they shoot towards the sky as often as they shoot towards the enemy. So really their strenght often relies on their capabilities during assault. I know a lot of people say tau is great at shooting but it's just that the look of the army is not too appealing to me. 

I have been also waiting for the GKs for years. I liked them with the DH because they all had storm bolters and it's quite fun to use. Seems like what we've heard so far that the new GKs will have quite a few new tools at their disposal including dreadknights, psilencers and new psycannons which doesn't cost 25 points each X|

What are your thoughts so far as to be able to take the new Grey Knights mainly as a shooting army?


----------



## Ninja D

Champion Alaric said:


> So how tall do you guys think the Dreadknight will be? Like to scale, 5"? I looked at the leaked pics and it seems like its as tall as a Greater Daemon.


I'd say 4" to 4.5" depending on how you posed him based on the size of the Grey Knight locked into the housing of the Dreadknight chest. If I had more time I could give you an exact height of the model in the leaked picture but I don't think it's really necessary since it'll be plastic and have all kinds of various poses based on who builds the kit.


----------



## coke123

Brovius said:


> That, my friend, is why I buy from Maelstrom Games


Meh, I get so much use out of my local battle bunker that I'm actually alright with paying Australian prices, for the most part. I figure I'm saving a ton on gameboards and paint, and not too mention the help I get from the staff... Except for the Stormraven. That's just too much- if I bother I might just make a stop by Wayland...


----------



## timsmith

Champion Alaric said:


> So how tall do you guys think the Dreadknight will be? Like to scale, 5"? I looked at the leaked pics and it seems like its as tall as a Greater Daemon.


So long as its tall enough to uppercut a Bloodthirster back to the warp them im happy :biggrin:


----------



## Synack

Well, from what I remember of the leaked pictures, the DK is roughly as big as the stem on the flying base for the stormraven.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'm sure you will find people who will pose the thing lying on the ground using it's weapons as sniper rifles claiming it's 2" tall and not modelled for gaming advantages.


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> I'm sure you will find people who will pose the thing lying on the ground using it's weapons as sniper rifles claiming it's 2" tall and not modelled for gaming advantages.


Wait... who told you my plan? :biggrin:


----------



## GrizBe

You mean your not just going to paint a hole on the base and just put the head in, saying it just 'accidently fell into' a crater?


----------



## Synack

Reminds me of this stealth suit


----------



## Irbian

so good ideas...

im going to do a rhino with a shoe box. I think that it will be fair enough

I want pictures  I mean, where went the good times where we could see the miniatures before the GW anouncement?  so sad


----------



## Champion Alaric

Dynamike said:


> What are your thoughts so far as to be able to take the new Grey Knights mainly as a shooting army?


I dont see why not. You get tons o guns. And if you get assaulted you should be sitting alright. If even half the rumors are true this will be an incredibly versatile army. Wanna shoot..psycannons and henchmen=guns galore (and I so don't wanna start the meltas are better than psycannons debate again lol)..i mean we still have no clue what a psilencer does, it could be ultimate for all we know. But what i love aboot this game is that you can make pretty much whatever you want..will that mean you will win alot..who knows, but if you like your shooty army that should be enuff.


----------



## bonedale

Dynamike said:


> What are your thoughts so far as to be able to take the new Grey Knights mainly as a shooting army?


Rumored GKs will make a good "shooty" army, especially since the guys with the guns can fight in cc too. This of course is all dependent on the rumored dex psycannon stats, and cost. 

Against BAs, and SWs, and all armies that are built to get into CC, GKs should sit back and soften them up with shooting. No reason to charge into another cc army without taking advantage of the psycannons first. Especially since strike squads can teleport for late game objective grabbing, CC enemies are going to be forced to charge into a wall of fire only to face I5 power weapons. CC armies will think you ARE a shooty army, however ...

Against Mech IG, and somewhat Tau, you won't be able to hold out against the IG's templates for long. You have to play a hybrid style, get some units in to take out the parking lots. Which is why I am really interested is what the orbital rules are. I don't want to get into the suicide squads of old, I want to see how this new dex allows for a coordinated strike on t2. The ghost knights, might die horribly getting in too early.


----------



## Arias

Don't know about anyone else but I am really liking Draigo, he doesn't seem half bad but is rather pricey. 

Just curious as to everyone elses thoughts and how he is gonna be used if at all.


EDIT: Another thing, I noticed this in the 5th edition FAQ: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Seeing as the Stormbolters are wrist mounted wouldn't they receive the extra attack regardless or does it have to specifically state that it is different from a normal Stormbolter?


----------



## Tuatara

I have to say I am reluctant to read too much into the rumours. Mainly because I don't want to get too tied into what to expect. The word "overhyped" springs to mind. I was even offered a peek at a pdf version of the new codex that had a lot of the details in it, but I said "No thanks". Yes, I'm a dick like that, but I rather wait till the official release.

Having said that, I did talk to a GW Team Member who was recently at one of their workshops in Aussie. He said they got to look at the new codex. He put two lists together, both 1500 points. One had over 100 models in it, the other had 7. That, my friends, is the flexibility I think most of us are looking for. I was looking at a new army because I wanted a hoarde force (being a little tired of a tiny force). If this GW Team Member is correct, I will be able to do both from one codex. That is indeed good news.

This may have already been mentioned here, but there is an awfull lot to go through. Quicker if a mod just deletes this if it was already mentioned


----------



## MadCowCrazy

How the hell do you create a 1500pt list with just 7 models in it? Especially since you need 2 troop choices? 1HQ and 2 3man paladins troops? There is no way that could be 1500pts?
7 models at 1500pt sounds really hilarious though, an army for people with a VERY small budget 

Facing down the 200ork horde, after 30min of placing orks "Ok, all orks on the table and ready to go. Hey? Where is the rest of your army?"

If you can be competitive with just 7 models they have to be some seriously powerful shit. Bogging them down with massed fire and units will wipe them out pretty easily though.


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> How the hell do you create a 1500pt list with just 7 models in it? Especially since you need 2 troop choices? 1HQ and 2 3man paladins troops? There is no way that could be 1500pts?


Draigo

1x Paladin, upgrades
1x Paladin, upgrades
1x Paladin, upgrades

1x Dreadknight, upgrades
1x Dreadknight, upgrades
1x Dreadknight, upgrades

1500 points. Utterly worthless.


----------



## GrizBe

Except if ou think those 2 dreadknights could have the nice heavy 12 weapon option....


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Vhalyar said:


> Draigo
> 
> 1x Paladin, upgrades
> 1x Paladin, upgrades
> 1x Paladin, upgrades
> 
> 1x Dreadknight, upgrades
> 1x Dreadknight, upgrades
> 1x Dreadknight, upgrades
> 
> 1500 points. Utterly worthless.


I think I gonna try this list. I don't remember exactly, but I think Draigo still has the Grand Strategy Rule?


----------



## soulreaver296

He does, and I think the FIRST list I'm gonna play with codex in hand is a paladin/termi list. Just for the novelty of it

EDIT: draigo, 15 paladins and 3 landraiders, no upgrades : 1865


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Paladin=meat for lascannons

Psycannons,purifiers, crowe... That's the true way...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

soulreaver296 said:


> He does, and I think the FIRST list I'm gonna play with codex in hand is a paladin/termi list. Just for the novelty of it
> 
> EDIT: draigo, 15 paladins and 3 landraiders, no upgrades : 1865


Not a good idea. You need wound groups in the Paladins or they die to fast. I also would out an Apothecary in it, that makes them survive longer. I figure out that they are effective if you play them like this:

5 Paladins
+ 2x NF Falchions
+ 2x NF Swords
+ 2x Incinerators
+ Apothecary

370mpts in total I believe, but they are really nice though


----------



## soulreaver296

I was just saying that it's A LOT of points for not a lot of models. They're nob bikers basically, so the whole wound allocation deal is key.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

i have heard that the leaked codex online is not quite right or the final version. For those who travel around the internet much there are about 5 "leaked" codexes out there. However I spoke to my sources today and they say it was part of a ploy by GW and that each leaked codex has some elements of truth in it whilst some of it is complete twaddle. So in short it might well be possible to make an army of only 7 models.

If they are right I personally hope the fluff concerning that stupid grandmaster that all daemons are afraid of and lives in the warp gets scrapped or at least re-written to make it more sensible.


----------



## coke123

Stephen_Newman said:


> If they are right I personally hope the fluff concerning that stupid grandmaster that all daemons are afraid of and lives in the warp gets scrapped or at least re-written to make it more sensible.


No way, I love that bit! Draigo is basically Chuck Norris in power armour!


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> No way, I love that bit! Draigo is basically Chuck Norris in power armour!


Terminator armor, actually.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Stephen_Newman said:


> i have heard that the leaked codex online is not quite right or the final version. For those who travel around the internet much there are about 5 "leaked" codexes out there. However I spoke to my sources today and they say it was part of a ploy by GW and that each leaked codex has some elements of truth in it whilst some of it is complete twaddle. So in short it might well be possible to make an army of only 7 models.
> 
> If they are right I personally hope the fluff concerning that stupid grandmaster that all daemons are afraid of and lives in the warp gets scrapped or at least re-written to make it more sensible.


It seems there is only one version. All the same.
I think it's how the final codex will be.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Terminator armor, actually.


Terminator armour is the Chuck Norris of Power armour.


----------



## Mathai

If the entire Warhammer 40K universe didnt revolve around insanely powerful beings and insanely powerful vehicles, I would be inclined to say that part of Draigo fluff is over the top. As it is though, they kinda have to put the dude in crazy insanely awesome circumstances to exemplify the fact that he is the best of the best of the best.


----------



## bhsman

There's over the top, and then there's taking a dump on established fluff and relative levels of power.


----------



## Vhalyar

bhsman said:


> There's over the top, and then there's taking a dump on established fluff and relative levels of power.


Mortarion: Papa Nurgle, hey, Papa Nurgle!
Mortarion: Help me! Draigo is carving the name of his predecessor in my heart!
Nurgle: No, I'm busy putting out the fire in the garden.
Mortation: Nyoro~n *fart*


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Vhalyar said:


> Mortarion: Papa Nurgle, hey, Papa Nurgle!
> Mortarion: Help me! Draigo is carving the name of his predecessor in my heart!
> Nurgle: No, I'm busy putting out the fire in the garden.
> Mortation: Nyoro~n *fart*


:goodpost: ROFLWPIMPSNIHTCUATMBYJWA


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> Terminator armor, actually.


Oh whatever. . Considering Chuck Norris comes with an inbuilt 2++ from his aura of awesomeness, it only makes him relentless and a deep striker anyway. And there's the fact that he's never _*once*_ ever had to make a sweeping advance, seeing as he just kills everyone before they run...


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

He's not draigo....He's Ken shiro....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I complete Retribution the other day and after thinking a bit about everything that has been rumoured about the GK codex it seems to be that Ordo Malleus has become the main part of the Inquisition and the bitches of any Inquisitor who needs them.

I mean it used to seem like they were all different ordos separated from each other but now it seems Ordo Hereticus and Xenos are nothing more than small branches from Ordo Malleus. I get the impression that the Inquisition now has total control over the GKs and that they dont act on their own accord anymore, that everything they do has to be Inquisition approved beforehand or something to this effect.

Dont think this is they way the fluff has described it before, to me it seems they are changing the fluff quite a bit with this codex release.

Are the voices in my head just spreading lies as usual or is there some truth to this?


----------



## Serpion5

Sounds similar, but elements have changed if that`s the case. 

Previously they were technically seperate organisations but their agendas crossed over plenty of times so it didn`t really matter. They were founded at different points in the timeline but I don`t think it was ever considered to be one was more important than the others. 

As for the Grey Knights, it was never clearly established. Some sources claimed they were their own chapter and that they served the Malleus because it suited their ends, and other sources claim they are directly and permanently seconded to the Inquisition. 

It`s really one of those things that depended on which version you liked better.


----------



## Winterous

I've not got the impression that the Ordos Malleus is the dominant branch from anything.
Maybe they're larger; I mean, the Emperor WAS created solely because of a foreseen daemonic threat, it stands to reason that there is a LOT of daemon hunting to do.

But I've not seen anything to suggest they're dominant.
In Retribution they're brought in because there have been frequent daemonic incursions since Chaos Rising. Why would any of the other Ordos handle that situation?
Alien threats in the sector weren't so bad as the Chaotic ones, and while there was heresy abound, there were daemons involved, so of course it's escalated from Hereticus to Malleus.


----------



## Tuatara

MadCowCrazy said:


> Are the voices in my head just spreading lies as usual or is there some truth to this?


Careful, the Lord of Change is trying to taint you


----------



## TheReverend

Hey guys, any news on when we can pre-order GK's?


----------



## OpTi

wednesday i believe seeing as all UK GW's are having a preorder "party" then, dunno wtf that means but i hope there's cake!


----------



## TheReverend

cool!  There better be cake...


----------



## bhsman

I would treat Retribution as the same kind of canon as Black Library.


----------



## OpTi

oh ye i dunno if you saw a few pages back but friday is the blackbox delivery day too so you'll be able to see the models then too.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Winterous said:


> I've not got the impression that the Ordos Malleus is the dominant branch from anything.
> Maybe they're larger; I mean, the Emperor WAS created solely because of a foreseen daemonic threat, it stands to reason that there is a LOT of daemon hunting to do.
> 
> But I've not seen anything to suggest they're dominant.
> In Retribution they're brought in because there have been frequent daemonic incursions since Chaos Rising. Why would any of the other Ordos handle that situation?
> Alien threats in the sector weren't so bad as the Chaotic ones, and while there was heresy abound, there were daemons involved, so of course it's escalated from Hereticus to Malleus.


Well if they're now being described as the largest branch of the Inquisition then that is a change in the fluff, as of now they're the smallest major Ordo (as well as the most secretive) with the Hereticus and Xenos largest and larger respectively.


----------



## Dagmire

Just a little up date.
The GKs should be up on the GW website on weds. As far as i know you shall be able to pre order stuff then too.


----------



## Vanchet

Hurray for Daemon slaying with a Nemesis halberd in one hand and cake in the other


----------



## Lucian Kain

I get the feeling that they are possibly even at Liegion strength,with 8 Supreme Grand masters thats like 8 chapters worth of marines,just that its strength is spread asshole to breakfast throughtout the Galaxie in 100 man battle groups.As for the Inquisition being boss? the highlords of Terra have always had supreme Grand masters amoungst there number in the Inner Circle with the same juditial powers keeping an eye on everything,Ultimately it would be a mistake to cross the Judgement of a GreyKnight in power,being the benchmark in purity of purpose and of thier own Autonomy,they are not subject to the Inquisitions scrutiny but share the same agenda...


----------



## Brovius

Lucian Kain said:


> I get the feeling that they are possibly even at Liegion strength,with 8 Supreme Grand masters thats like 8 chapters worth of marines,just that its strength is spread asshole to breakfast throughtout the Galaxie in 100 man battle groups.As for the Inquisition being boss? the highlords of Terra have always had supreme Grand masters amoungst there number in the Inner Circle with the same juditial powers keeping an eye on everything,Ultimately it would be a mistake to cross the Judgement of a GreyKnight in power,being the benchmark in purity of purpose and of thier own Autonomy,they are not subject to the Inquisitions scrutiny but share the same agenda...


So...
Don't f*ck with a Grand Master.

Also, they are far from legion strength. Many legions numbered over 10,000 and 8 Grand Masters each leading 100 Grey Knights is 800. It was once estimated that there are 3,000 Grey Knights scattered across the galaxy. I'm hoping we don't become a specialised branck of the Ultramarine veterans.
Was it ever explained how they managed to replace the entire First Company so quickly, or did they just hand out promotions to everyone?


----------



## MichaelCarmine

If i compare them to a "normal" Chapter (i know, heresy), then Grandmasters work more like Chapter Masters while the Brother Captains lead their Battlebrothers like their equivalents in ca. 100 Man Battlegroups... Therefore i think they indeed may have near Legion-strength


----------



## Mathai

Well when Lucian said 8 'Supreme' Grandmasters, that made me think that they were the top, but that there were still 'regular' Grandmasters as well. Now if that is the case, and if a regular Grandmaster is the rough equivalent to a more common Chapter Master, then wouldnt that make the Supreme variety one step up in terms of power and scope of control? If thats the case then there would be even more of these suckers out there. Of course, the nature of a Grey Knights job seems to put them in even higher areas of danger than even the more normal Space Marine and therefor an even lower life expectancy rate. x.x


----------



## StalkerZero

Brother Siegfrid said:


> Paladin=meat for lascannons
> 
> Psycannons,purifiers, crowe... That's the true way...


Edit: removed for whining.


----------



## coke123

Mathai said:


> Of course, the nature of a Grey Knights job seems to put them in even higher areas of danger than even the more normal Space Marine and therefor an even lower life expectancy rate. x.x


You're forgetting the badass factor. They probably live longer than normal marines just out of sheer awesomeness.

Although there's only one Supreme Grand Master (according to the leak)- and that's Draigo.


----------



## Lucian Kain

coke123 said:


> You're forgetting the badass factor. They probably live longer than normal marines just out of sheer awesomeness.
> 
> Although there's only one Supreme Grand Master (according to the leak)- and that's Draigo.


YEA but No,Read again:wink: theres 8 of these guys...

Justicar=10,BrotherCaptain=100,GrandMaster=both100/1000(x8),Supreme Grand Master=8000,-So 2000 short of a liegion.
The title "GrandMaster" Is given A lot of flexability concerntrate on that part of the read on force organiseation...It actually says that there is no one single superdooper GrandMaster who controlls or is the head of every thing,theres 8. and they're on par with the HighLords of Terra...

So useing our powers of deduction we can speculate that it is at least possible that the GK could number 8000.Thats all I'm saying.


----------



## Winterous

Baron Spikey said:


> Well if they're now being described as the largest branch of the Inquisition then that is a change in the fluff, as of now they're the smallest major Ordo (as well as the most secretive) with the Hereticus and Xenos largest and larger respectively.


Ok then.
Where has it said they're in charge, or bigger?
That's my point.


----------



## Valerian

Lucian Kain said:


> YEA but No,Read again:wink: theres 8 of these guys...
> 
> Justicar=10,BrotherCaptain=100,GrandMaster=both100/1000(x8),Supreme Grand Master=8000,-So 2000 short of a liegion.
> The title "GrandMaster" Is given A lot of flexability concerntrate on that part of the read on force organiseation...It actually says that there is no one single superdooper GrandMaster who controlls or is the head of every thing,theres 8. and they're on par with the HighLords of Terra...
> 
> So useing our powers of deduction we can speculate that it is at least possible that the GK could number 8000.Thats all I'm saying.


Going by the leaked PDF, the Brother-Captains command the Brotherhoods, which are basically Company Level organizations. The Supreme Grand Master is the Chapter Master and in command of all Grey Knights; he also sits on the Inner Conclave of the Ordo Malleus. The Grand Masters are outside of the chain-of-command; they are senior members of the Chapter, but aren't allocated any specific forces. They are available to help out as needed. At least that's how I read the new, more detailed description of roles and organization.

Valerian


----------



## Valerian

Winterous said:


> Ok then.
> Where has it said they're in charge, or bigger?
> That's my point.


The "front" for the Ordo Malleus was that they were created to police the rest of the Inquisition; they would "watch the watchers". Their unkown/secret true purpose is, of course, to protect humanity from the Daemonic. Historically, the Grey Knights have always been the Chamber Militant (eg the fighting arm) of the Ordo Malleus. I don't recall any fluff that specifically addressed the size of the organization, but since they serve to keep all of the other Inquisitors in line (in addition to fighting Daemons), they have to be the most powerful. I'm sure the Dark Heresy RPG has more on this, but I don't have those books.

V


----------



## Alessander

*Test Game*

I played a test game today (March 6 2011) with the new Grey Knights leaked codex, versus Dark Eldar.

2000 Pts each side:

Grey Knights:

* Mordrack & 6 Ghost Knights (1 Psycannon)
* Librarian with Teleport Homer, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Summoning
* Vindicaire
* Purifiers (10) with 4 Psycannons & Halberds
* Strike Squad (10) with 2 Incinerators, Personal Teleporters & halberds
* Strike Squad (5) with 1 Incinerator, Halberds, Razorback with Las/Plas and Extra Armor
* Nemesis Dreadknight with personal Teleporter
* Nemesis Dreadknight with personal Teleporter

Long story short, it was a bloody battle but the GKs sqeaked out a victory. For a full battle report, including a failry low-tech animation of the battle, go to http://silvercompassdesigns.com/personal/405030611anim.html.

My observations:

Deep striking Dreadknights nearly REQUIRE a ranged weapon (beyond Holocaust). They become HUUGE fire magnets.
Vindicaires are nowhere near undercosted. They will likely get only a single shot off before being killed. We didn't know what Blind Grenades did, but I doubt they would have helped.
Purifiers + Librarian with Quicksilver = *insanely* difficult unit to assault. 15 Helions charged them and didn't get a single hit in before dying!

Can a librarian use Summoning on the same turn he arrives from reserves? I think we may have played that wrong. Additionally, if you Summon a unit to within 2" of the Librarian, can he join that squad? (we played Yes).
 Teleport Homer on a Librarian helps with Summoning :grin:
Saving your psychic spells for the Force Weapon aspect of most Nemesis Weapons is better used for large squads, not for single models.
DE's shouldn't rely on the anti-psyker gear. With the GK's leadership of 10 it's a long shot to hurt the silver Slaughterers.
Modrak's Ghostly Bodyguard is a great way to expand your threat range of his squad - assining a wound to Mordrak means your squad is basically 4" closer to a target unit (for assault). However, due to Majority Save rules and the fact that he's a unit upgrade when the bodyguard is alive, it looks like you'll only be able to allocate wounds to him from failed 2+ saves (due to his iron halo it won't work with failed saves from AP1/2 guns or power weapons)
Don't forget that Mordrak and his Ghosts are first in the Fray! (grumble grumble, I could have used those reserve bonuses earlier in the game).


----------



## coke123

Lucian Kain said:


> YEA but No,Read again:wink: theres 8 of these guys...


Yeah, but no, why don't YOU read again. There are eight Grand Masters. There is only one *Supreme* Grand Master- Draigo.



Lucian Kain said:


> Justicar=10,BrotherCaptain=100,GrandMaster=both100/1000(x8),Supreme Grand Master=8000,-So 2000 short of a liegion.
> The title "GrandMaster" Is given A lot of flexability concerntrate on that part of the read on force organiseation...It actually says that there is no one single superdooper GrandMaster who controlls or is the head of every thing,theres 8. and they're on par with the HighLords of Terra...
> 
> So useing our powers of deduction we can speculate that it is at least possible that the GK could number 8000.Thats all I'm saying.


It actually does imply that there is one super-duper Grand Master- in that Draigo's title is in fact 'Supreme Grand Master'. In his fluff it also states that he took over from the last Chapter Lord- implying that there is indeed a position of the Figurehead of the Grey Knights

It says nowhere that the chapter's organisation is anything like this. For the most part, Brother Captains are the primary battle leaders- Grand Masters are more political figureheads who are only brought into battle when shit is REALLY going down. Compared to the normal shit going down when Grey Knights are called to the fray.

Or so it is according to the leak...


----------



## Necrosis

Vindicare assassin works well with a techmarine, since you can give him a 2+ cover save.


----------



## lordsloth

Alessander said:


> [*]Modrak's Ghostly Bodyguard is a great way to expand your threat range of his squad - assining a wound to Mordrak means your squad is basically 4" closer to a target unit (for assault). However, due to Majority Save rules and the fact that he's a unit upgrade when the bodyguard is alive, it looks like you'll only be able to allocate wounds to him from failed 2+ saves (due to his iron halo it won't work with failed saves from AP1/2 guns or power weapons)


I don't get this part. Majority saves are a thing of the past in so far as I understand it. Unless Mordrak works differently somehow. You should still be able to take your iron halo save when you allocate an armour ignoring wounding hit to Mordrak.

(I also don't see what that has to do with the ghost knight spawning but that may be wording specific to only be on failed armour saves instead of saves in general or something)


----------



## Synack

There's loads of things he played wrong, but its not the proper codex, so it's pointless correcting anything now.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Brovius said:


> Was it ever explained how they managed to replace the entire First Company so quickly, or did they just hand out promotions to everyone?


250 years is quickly?


----------



## lordsloth

Baron Spikey said:


> 250 years is quickly?


In 40k? Sort off


----------



## RedemptionNL

Sephiroth posted some GW GK paintjobs of existing models on Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295940


----------



## Brovius

RedemptionNL, i'd give you some more rep for sharing that link, but it won't let me 
Nice find. Despite being very unoriginal, the Librarian looks pretty good in silver


----------



## RedemptionNL

As has been said in the Warseer thread though, it's a shame they didn't make one with the GK style terminator armour with wrist-mounted storm bolter though.


----------



## Irbian

Im dissapointed. They are old minis isnt it? The librarian is new?


----------



## RedemptionNL

Those are all existing minis, just in a GK paintjob.


----------



## the cabbage

Popped into the battle bunker today.

Looks like wednesday for the black box and friday for net pre-orders etc.


----------



## RedemptionNL

the cabbage said:


> Popped into the battle bunker today.
> 
> Looks like wednesday for the black box and friday for net pre-orders etc.


Are you sure you didn't get that reversed? Most other people say Wednesday for the pre-orders and Saturday for the black box.


----------



## Lucian Kain

_It actually does imply that there is one super-duper Grand Master- in that Draigo's title is in fact 'Supreme Grand Master'. In his fluff it also states that he took over from the last Chapter Lord- implying that there is indeed a position of the Figurehead of the Grey Knights_ 

You've almost said everything completely opposite from my Interpritation of whats writen.
Haha a GrandMaster is a GrandMaster Reguardless if he has "Supreme" in His title or not and It was said that the various other GrandMasters could have up to a dozen titles in thier official Name/roll of honour acknowlegements.And would rotate through the political affairs(like equals takeing turns),to an effect as to almost being a waste of the GrandMasters time,Being him self such a valueable battlefield asset/weapon and a missplacement of resourses.
...It states there is 8 GrandMasters,no one single boss,they take turns at holding positions
...100 man brotherhoods headed by BrotherCaptains
(Independant opperational strength)
...Old Draigo might be the best but hes not the boss,he can't command shit from 10 millenia in the warp,his fluff is fucked...anyhow "he was made Supreme Grand Master of his own chapter"Implyeing more than one?NOW question is if he wasn't giong to "get made" from his own fucken chapter then what was the alternative.
These guys arn't spacemarines so fuck that force organisation out of your head,when you can equip any number of guys in terminator armour.When Gilliman said "yea split up boys,and do this and this and this" the GreyKnights went "oh yea,Naah,we'll do our own buzz cuzz"

_It says nowhere that the chapter's organisation is anything like this. For the most part, Brother Captains are the primary battle leaders- Grand Masters are more political figureheads who are only brought into battle when shit is REALLY going down. Compared to the normal shit going down when Grey Knights are called to the fray.

Or so it is according to the leak...[/QUOTE]_

What the fuck are you reading,its all backwards

If you put all the other SpaceMarine chapters together in number,the GK are still few in comparrison.
If you put all the Orders of the Fighting nuns together in number it would be similar and the ordo Xenos are adhock campain armys derived from astartes and can be any size depending on the thret,Ultimately the GKs are still the smallest organiseation even if at a broken company strength.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lucian Kain said:


> You've almost said everything completely opposite from my Interpritation of whats writen.


What you've said is the opposite of my interpretation, but that doesn't make either of us right per se. To me at least, it's fairly plain that the *Supreme* Grand Master is indeed superior to a "normal" Grand Master. The fact that Draigo is wandering around the Warp trolling the Chaos Gods is irrelevant - he's fought alongside the Grey Knights many times since he was first cursed to wander the realm of Chaos and apparently the Knights don't elect another Supreme Grand Master so long as their current one is still alive, even if he's missing in action.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Since a huge portion of GK are psykers wouldn't that automatically make them a very small chapter? I wonder if there is some sort of psychic event due to the amount of psykers when they all gather for a frat party?


----------



## OpTi

the cabbage said:


> Popped into the battle bunker today.
> 
> Looks like wednesday for the black box and friday for net pre-orders etc.


the schedule for GW's is wednesday for preorders and friday for black boxes, at least it is for the UK. I can't imagine anywhere else being different.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Champion Alaric said:


> Since a huge portion of GK are psykers wouldn't that automatically make them a very small chapter? I wonder if there is some sort of psychic event due to the amount of psykers when they all gather for a frat party?


Not just a huge portion of GK are psykers, _all_ GK are psykers.  However, unlike normal chapters they don't have a just a handful of recruiting worlds, they recruit from the entire Imperium. Even if like 0.001% of the population is a psyker, there are billions upon billions of worlds in the Imperium, with huge population numbers. Plenty of recruitment material.


----------



## the cabbage

OpTi said:


> the schedule for GW's is wednesday for preorders and friday for black boxes, at least it is for the UK. I can't imagine anywhere else being different.


I may have got it wrong

But i'll tell you for sure on wednesday :biggrin:


----------



## Judas Masias

I just saw this on Warseer and thought i would share.

Just on the GW website: 

(German Version: )
25. März: Grey Knights im Fokus!
Am Abend des 25. März hast du in allen Hobbyzentren die Möglichkeit, in Ruhe den neuen Codex: Grey Knights zu inspizieren und natürlich die neuen Modelle im Einsatz zu erleben.
Komm vorbei und überzeuge dich selbst von der Macht dieses außergewöhnlichen Ordens!

(a little bit free translation
25th March: Grey Knights in Focus!
In the evening from the 25th of March you get the chance to see the new Grey Knight codex. Only in your local GW-Store. Look at that power.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=15800007a


----------



## Judas Masias

This is what i plan on useing for my Grey Knight Librarian.

View attachment 11606


----------



## Keecai

is that the space hulk librarian?
(and plastic.....)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Judas Masias said:


> I just saw this on Warseer and thought i would share.
> 
> Just on the GW website:
> 
> (German Version: )
> 25. März: Grey Knights im Fokus!
> Am Abend des 25. März hast du in allen Hobbyzentren die Möglichkeit, in Ruhe den neuen Codex: Grey Knights zu inspizieren und natürlich die neuen Modelle im Einsatz zu erleben.
> Komm vorbei und überzeuge dich selbst von der Macht dieses außergewöhnlichen Ordens!
> 
> (a little bit free translation
> 25th March: Grey Knights in Focus!
> In the evening from the 25th of March you get the chance to see the new Grey Knight codex. Only in your local GW-Store. Look at that power.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=15800007a


Seems it's been removed from GWs website, isn't this like the third time they put up something about the GKs only to remove it a few seconds later because it wasn't meant to go live?


----------



## Necrosis

Katie Drake said:


> What you've said is the opposite of my interpretation, but that doesn't make either of us right per se. To me at least, it's fairly plain that the *Supreme* Grand Master is indeed superior to a "normal" Grand Master. The fact that Draigo is wandering around the Warp trolling the Chaos Gods is irrelevant - he's fought alongside the Grey Knights many times since he was first cursed to wander the realm of Chaos and apparently the Knights don't elect another Supreme Grand Master so long as their current one is still alive, even if he's missing in action.


The same thing happened to the sisters of battle leader. She disappeared and thus has not be replaced. Maybe she also in the warp to, trolling the chaos gods also. Maybe her and Draigo will team up and beat up a Chaos God.


----------



## RedemptionNL

MadCowCrazy said:


> Seems it's been removed from GWs website, isn't this like the third time they put up something about the GKs only to remove it a few seconds later because it wasn't meant to go live?


It's not removed, you have to select German to see it.


----------



## Judas Masias

Keecai said:


> is that the space hulk librarian?
> (and plastic.....)


Yes it is. I bought the Space Hulk box set when it first came out but sadly i have only played 2 games with it sence. So i plan on putting this fantastic model to good use in my new Grey Knight army.


----------



## bhsman

Seeing that vanilla Ven. Dread in boltgun metal reminds me that we could've had an intricately detailed Grey Knight Dread but were given a Gundam instead.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Was just told this : The black box will contain GK Terminators, the Dreadknight and the Codex.


----------



## boreas

I'll wait until I see the DK model (in 2 days? *fingers crossed*) before I pass judgement, but remember that FW does very very nice (and reasonably priced) GK dreads!! If the DK is not acceptable, I'm pretty sure you can use those as "count as" with some minor modifications (to the overall height, from what I understand).

Phil


----------



## bhsman

That won't stop from Ward rewriting the First Battle for Armageddon to say that three of them took down Angron and not the heroic efforts of Brother-Captain Aurelian. =/


----------



## RedemptionNL

boreas said:


> I'll wait until I see the DK model (in 2 days? *fingers crossed*) before I pass judgement, but remember that FW does very very nice (and reasonably priced) GK dreads!! If the DK is not acceptable, I'm pretty sure you can use those as "count as" with some minor modifications (to the overall height, from what I understand).
> 
> Phil


Judging from the pictures, the Dreadknight is about as big as the flying stand of a Stormraven/Valkyrie, or 5-5.5 inches. That's Trygon territory. I've heard it even comes on an oval base.

Ah well, like you said, 2 more days.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Oh yeah, and the codex is not hardback for those wondering, I was quite surprised with this but they might go hardback with 6ed?


----------



## Mathai

For everyone that dislikes the Dreadknight, I just wanna remind them of how bad the Stormraven looked to alot of people before it was released...And that one had a crystal clear image of it for us to base our opinions off of! =)


----------



## Katie Drake

MadCowCrazy said:


> Was just told this : The black box will contain GK Terminators, the Dreadknight and the Codex.


No Grey Knight Strike Squads/Purifiers? Strange and a bit scary. The photos I got a hold of a while back definitely displayed painted and assembled Knights in power armor...


----------



## RedemptionNL

The black boxes rarely contain all the released models. Usually just the sprues of 2 kits and the codex, just like this instance.


----------



## bhsman

Mathai said:


> For everyone that dislikes the Dreadknight, I just wanna remind them of how bad the Stormraven looked to alot of people before it was released...And that one had a crystal clear image of it for us to base our opinions off of! =)


I don't hate the Dreadknight because of how it looked in a blurry photo, I hate it because it _exists_.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From my knowledge black boxes pretty much always contain 3 things, dex and 2 kits. 1 of the kits has always been a new model and the other one some new or remodelled plastic kit.

I have no idea about the Orks and Goblins but I bet their black box had book, that spider and probably those plastic guys on pigs. I could be wrong but I'm sure someone of you knows.


----------



## Baron Spikey

MadCowCrazy said:


> From my knowledge black boxes pretty much always contain 3 things, dex and 2 kits. 1 of the kits has always been a new model and the other one some new or remodelled plastic kit.
> 
> I have no idea about the Orks and Goblins but I bet their black box had book, that spider and probably those plastic guys on pigs. I could be wrong but I'm sure someone of you knows.


Best person to ask would be Son of Horus, he seems to paint up his store's black box when it comes in.


----------



## Irbian

If someone knows how to get that picture bigger...
http://en-gb.facebook.com/event.php?eid=195239977167853


----------



## OpTi

picture is too low resolution to actualy see anything


----------



## Irbian

Dont you have your gadget-eyes?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I don't even think that that's the GK Black Box^^


----------



## coke123

Lucian Kain said:


> _It actually does imply that there is one super-duper Grand Master- in that Draigo's title is in fact 'Supreme Grand Master'. In his fluff it also states that he took over from the last Chapter Lord- implying that there is indeed a position of the Figurehead of the Grey Knights_
> 
> You've almost said everything completely opposite from my Interpritation of whats writen.
> Haha a GrandMaster is a GrandMaster Reguardless if he has "Supreme" in His title or not and It was said that the various other GrandMasters could have up to a dozen titles in thier official Name/roll of honour acknowlegements.And would rotate through the political affairs(like equals takeing turns),to an effect as to almost being a waste of the GrandMasters time,Being him self such a valueable battlefield asset/weapon and a missplacement of resourses.
> ...It states there is 8 GrandMasters,no one single boss,they take turns at holding positions
> ...100 man brotherhoods headed by BrotherCaptains
> (Independant opperational strength)
> ...Old Draigo might be the best but hes not the boss,he can't command shit from 10 millenia in the warp,his fluff is fucked...anyhow "he was made Supreme Grand Master of his own chapter"Implyeing more than one?NOW question is if he wasn't giong to "get made" from his own fucken chapter then what was the alternative.
> These guys arn't spacemarines so fuck that force organisation out of your head,when you can equip any number of guys in terminator armour.When Gilliman said "yea split up boys,and do this and this and this" the GreyKnights went "oh yea,Naah,we'll do our own buzz cuzz"
> 
> _It says nowhere that the chapter's organisation is anything like this. For the most part, Brother Captains are the primary battle leaders- Grand Masters are more political figureheads who are only brought into battle when shit is REALLY going down. Compared to the normal shit going down when Grey Knights are called to the fray.
> 
> Or so it is according to the leak..._
> 
> What the fuck are you reading,its all backwards
> 
> If you put all the other SpaceMarine chapters together in number,the GK are still few in comparrison.
> If you put all the Orders of the Fighting nuns together in number it would be similar and the ordo Xenos are adhock campain armys derived from astartes and can be any size depending on the thret,Ultimately the GKs are still the smallest organiseation even if at a broken company strength.


Whatever, there's really no point in arguing about something that hasn't been released yet... Although I still disagree.

EDIT: for future reference, if you're not going to use quote tags, please make sure you delete all of them... You missed a couple and I had to go back and fix up this post...



the cabbage said:


> I may have got it wrong
> 
> But i'll tell you for sure on wednesday :biggrin:


I feel I should point out to my fellow Australians that this really means preorders go up on Thuirsday for us, seeing as how we live in the Future.



Katie Drake said:


> No Grey Knight Strike Squads/Purifiers? Strange and a bit scary. The photos I got a hold of a while back definitely displayed painted and assembled Knights in power armor...





MadCowCrazy said:


> From my knowledge black boxes pretty much always contain 3 things, dex and 2 kits. 1 of the kits has always been a new model and the other one some new or remodelled plastic kit.
> 
> I have no idea about the Orks and Goblins but I bet their black box had book, that spider and probably those plastic guys on pigs. I could be wrong but I'm sure someone of you knows.


Black Boxes do not contain the entire releases kits- just a couple. The Orc and Goblin kit, for instance, had the book, the Arachnorok, and the Savage Orcs kit, IIRC. There were still some Forest Goblins, Savage Orc Boar Boys and some characters being released on top of what's in the box.


----------



## boreas

In a whole eight years of playing, it's the first time ever one of my armies gets a new codex so, I've got to ask: does all FLGS get a black box or do I really have to go all the way downtown to my tiny GW store?

Phil


----------



## Irbian

Akhara'Keth said:


> I don't even think that that's the GK Black Box^^


How you dare? Its clearly a dreadknight! look at that pixel, look! 

I believed that existed a way to increase the size from facebook pictures


----------



## Brovius

coke123 said:


> I feel I should point out to my fellow Australians that this really means preorders go up on Thuirsday for us, seeing as how we live in the Future.


This is why we can't have nice things


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> In a whole eight years of playing, it's the first time ever one of my armies gets a new codex so, I've got to ask: does all FLGS get a black box or do I really have to go all the way downtown to my tiny GW store?
> 
> Phil


From my own experience only GW stores get the black boxes, other stores can get a preview package that includes a few of the boxes.
Our local store for instance got the codex, a box of warrior and a raider for the Dark Eldar release. We usually get things 2 weeks before release so by then everything about the dex should already have been released on the web.

Bah, GKs is one of the armies I'm really interested it, wish I could get my hands on a preview copy sooner rather than later 




Brovius said:


> This is why we can't have nice things


Remember that you get a Games Day this year so you can spend 70$ just to get in to buy the GW products at 170% RRP compared to in the UK...


----------



## coke123

boreas said:


> In a whole eight years of playing, it's the first time ever one of my armies gets a new codex so, I've got to ask: does all FLGS get a black box or do I really have to go all the way downtown to my tiny GW store?
> 
> Phil


AFAIK Black Boxes are a GW only thing. FLGSs would get their stock earlier than the intended release date (I imagine), but whether it's cool for them to show customers before release, I don't know. Maybe if the manager of said LGS is really cool... otherwise it looks like you're trekking it.


Brovius said:


> This is why we can't have nice things


THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T GO TO NICE PLACES!

But seriously, it's not like we're getting it any later than everybody else...it's just that we live twelve hours ahead of Greenwich (and therefore, by extension, Nottingham as well, I assume).

Wait, I think I just realised why Australia's GW prices are so high- it must be in order to maintain the fleet of time-travelling Deloreans required to bring stock to our timeline!


----------



## boreas

Darn, I guess I'll pass... I'm not driving 30 minutes and then paying 20$ of parking to look at sprues 

Hopefully, I'll be able to cure my sorrow in a few days by pre-ordering stuff from Wayland or Maelstrom 

Phil


----------



## coke123

Is there no public transport in your area? Or am I just lucky enough to have a bus that goes right past my house and drops me off on the same block as my GW? :grin:


----------



## Tossy

I just got offered to assemble the black box of these guys.

They look awesome, but I had to turn the offer down as I am out tonight. 

The Dredknight, Termies and regular GK are in the box (including falchions)


----------



## bhsman

Even if you don't see it yourself the day of, I'm sure there'll be reports all over the internet from others to tide you over.


----------



## Valerian

boreas said:


> Darn, I guess I'll pass... I'm not driving 30 minutes and then paying 20$ of parking to look at sprues
> 
> Hopefully, I'll be able to cure my sorrow in a few days by pre-ordering stuff from Wayland or Maelstrom
> 
> Phil


I can't speak for everywhere, but my FLGS got black boxes for Wolves and Angels, so I assume they'll get Knights as well. Just call yours later in the week to see.

V


----------



## Kastle

> The Dredknight, Termies and regular GK are in the box (including falchions)


very Cool!


----------



## Scorpio

A quick question, for those that have access to the black boxes. Will you be allowed to reveal the bits breakdown for the GKT and the PAGK, i.e. how many thorsos, weapons options, stormbolter arms, etc?


----------



## OpTi

seeing as it's nearly morning now i'm heading into GW soonish and if the blackbox is there i'll deff be looking at whats in there so i can start plans for my army.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

TAKE PICTURES! Good ones too!


----------



## Dynamike

With the codex soon to be seen in those black boxes and it's information spread all over the web, I wanted to ask a simple question. Is there anyone else or am I the only one kinda torn between wanting to know it all right now as it comes out on the web and waiting to see it with their own eyes in their own precious books as they open it for the first time at home with the smell of the freshly printed book? :dunno:

mmm...

my precious....


----------



## Tuatara

Dynamike said:


> ... am I the only one kinda torn between wanting to know it all right now as it comes out on the web and waiting to see it with their own eyes in their own precious books as they open it for the first time at home with the smell of the freshly printed book? :dunno:
> 
> mmm...
> 
> my precious....


No you're not. I want to see the book first and foremost. Having said that, I can't help coming here to read what's up, but I have to admit I skip the posts with loads of details in them.


----------



## fattdex

Pre release stuff (same as black boxes i imagine) have reached some LGS



> Psilencer?
> 
> It's got:
> Range of 24"
> Strength 4
> AP -
> Heavy 6
> 
> There's also the option for a Gatling Psilencer, which has the same stats excepts it's Heavy 12
> 
> A Psilencer always wounds Daemons on a roll of a 4+ unless the score required to wound would normally be less.


Dreadknights are indeed just over 4 inches tall and on an oval base.


----------



## Synack

fattdex said:


> Pre release stuff (same as black boxes i imagine) have reached some LGS
> 
> 
> 
> Dreadknights are indeed just over 4 inches tall and on an oval base.


Where did this info come from? Can we get more, like what the grenades do, conf of psycannon stats and heavy psycannon, servo-skulls, etc.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I was just about to ask if anyone could check what the psilancer stats were 

Here are a few things I'd really like to know about :

Henchmen
Cost of crusaders, really 15pt for a pw and SS wielding dude?
Daemonhost : What does runic chains do? Does it really only have 1A base?

Rad grenades, empyrean brain mines, psychotroke grenades? Wtf are there things?
Psyk-out grenades?
Stats on orbital bombardment, same as in the SM or do you get to chose between the ones in C:WH/DH

Truesilver armour for vehicles? I've read a rumour about it making them immune to melta?

These are the things that has been gnawing at my mind for weeks now, if anyone could answer these questions I might finally be able to get some rest, the voices in my head keeps me awake with all their constant arguing about what these things do...


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> empyrean brain mines


I have several times taken a guess as to what these do.
Just to recap.

Empyrean = The Warp.
Mines = An explosive device or some sort of defence mechanism.
Brain = The gooey thing in your skull.

So I'm guessing one of three things.

1. A protection against Perils, as in a minefield-like thing which protects you from the dangers of the Warp.
2. Psychic defence, injuring anyone who uses Psychic powers on the wielder.
3. Some sort of Psychic detonation upon death.

If I'm right, you all have to give me awesome >


----------



## Synack

From warseer




Ruleslawyer said:


> There is no shift but are listed as a separate fast attack choice.
> 
> Interesting factoid - Psybolt Ammo gives +1 Strength to Stormbolters,Hurricane bolters,Heavy bolters, *Auto Cannons and Assault cannons.*


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, that sounds pretty nasty indeed 

Is it true psyflame is the same? Just +1S but to flamer based weapons?


----------



## Synack

Okay, here's what I got from warseer so far



> Psybolt ammo gives +1STR to Storm Bolters, Hurricane bolters, Heavy bolters, assault cannons and autocannons
> 
> GKSS troops no longer have access to personal teleporters, but there is a FA version of the GKSS that have personal teleporters
> 
> Psilencer is 24" S4 Ap- Heavy 6, Gatlin version is Heavy 12. Wounds daemons on a max of a 4+ (ie: if you would have wounded on a 3+, you still do).
> 
> Dreadknights are just over 4" tall.
> 
> Brotherhood banner: +1A and phsycic test for force weapon auto succeeds (ouch mephiston )
> 
> Psyk grenades has random abilities (waiting to hear more)
> Rad grenades are -1T
> Blind grenades are defensive
> 
> Nemesis Force weapon is +1 Invun (we knew this already)
> Nemesis Force Haldred is +2 Init (We thought it was +1)
> Nemesis Force stave is +2 Invun in CC (We knew this too)


Will post more as it comes in


----------



## Synack

More from warseer



> Warp Stab Field allows Librarian to transport vehicle using the Summoning Power.
> 
> Servo Skulls act like mystics with extra goodies
> 
> And Brain mines means affected unit cannot act that assault phase( I think)


----------



## Synack

omg omg omg 




Ruleslawyer said:


> Does the teleport homer effect the summoning?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes because unit is deep striking
Click to expand...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It seems the rules flood has started and the water barrier is failing 
Come on rules and entries, SHOW ME WHAT YOU'VE GOT!!


----------



## Synack

More from warseer



Ruleslawyer said:


> Psycannon
> 
> S7 AP4 Assault 2, Heavy 4, Rending
> 
> Heavy Psycannon S7 AP4 Large Blast Rending
> 
> No Storm Shields on Termies, though the NF Sword gives +1 to Inv in CC if you already have Inv save, so basic PAGK's don't get one.
> 
> Therefore GM with Iron Halo has 3++ in CC if he has Sword


----------



## Synack

More




Ruleslawyer said:


> Doomfist are basically Nemesis Dreadnought CCW(ie S10 powerfists)
> 
> Sword is S6 but allows rerolls to hit and wound
> 
> DK Daemonhammer is S10 Thunderhammer
> 
> all nemesis weapons have daemonbane which basically ignores eternal warrior for daemons and psykers


Lol and daemonbane.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, that rule for Daemonbane actually makes sense. My poor Daemons though.


----------



## Synack

Ruleslawyer said:


> NDH is basically TH with daemonbane and a force weapon to boot


With the daemonbane rule on all nemesis weapons and the whole army getting PE: daemons, it's pretty much a done deal when playing GK vs Daemons.


----------



## Synack

DK stats change



Ruleslawyer said:


> timsmith said:
> 
> 
> 
> does this mean the dreadknight is only S6??
> 
> 
> 
> Yes S6 T6 4W
Click to expand...


----------



## boreas

Woah... Psylencer Heavy 6? That means that my 200pts squad can pour out 60 St4 shots per turn? Poor Orks! Will we assist to GK gunline? 800pts buys me 2 squads of psycannon purgation squads (w/ psybolts) and 2 squads of psylencer GKSS. That's 16 St7 rending shots and 120 St 4 shots. Add 2 techmarines for 3+ cover all around and you're just shy of 1000pts. That leaves 500-850pts for and HQ and some termies for CC bodyguards!

Phil


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Heavy Incinerator operates like the hellhound(+12") Gatling Psilencer is S4 AP- Heavy12 but wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless S4 vs T3 or better


----------



## soulreaver296

Hold on... heavy 6? no assault profile? I thought gks DIDN'T to use static weaponry. Every previous shooting option (yes, all 3 of them) at least HAD an assault profile. I thought that was one of their "things".


----------



## Brovius

Yes... Yes...
Weapons to use against the slaves of heresy!


----------



## RedemptionNL

soulreaver296 said:


> Hold on... heavy 6? no assault profile? I thought gks DIDN'T to use static weaponry. Every previous shooting option (yes, all 3 of them) at least HAD an assault profile. I thought that was one of their "things".


Aye, if those stats are true, I don't see myself using the Psilencer often, even if it's 10 points cheaper than the Psycannon. The Psycannon has more range, is deadlier against any T4 opponent, especially if it has a decent armour save, can threaten vehicles and can be fire on the move, if required.


----------



## Synack

I think I'm gonna be running Mordrack + Ghost Knights and a Librarian with Summoning and a teleporter. Then run 2 Purg squad, one with 4 psycannons and one with 4 incins.

First turn I can have a anti-tank squad OR a anti-horde squad anywhere on the board.


----------



## soulreaver296

The only place I can think of putting a psilencer is on a GKT squad or an HQ. There, you get relentless, don't lose your NFW, and if you model it on your Sarge (or DO put it on your HQ) you can master craft it for a pittance. But, it's still just not as attractive as a psycannon.


----------



## RedemptionNL

soulreaver296 said:


> The only place I can think of putting a psilencer is on a GKT squad or an HQ. There, you get relentless, don't lose your NFW, and if you model it on your Sarge (or DO put it on your HQ) you can master craft it for a pittance. But, it's still just not as attractive as a psycannon.


That all applies to the Psycannon too though, the only downside of the Psycannon being the increased point cost. 
And Master-crafted only lets you re-roll 1 miss, right? That would be less valuable for a Psilencer than a Psycannon too, as on average you still get more misses, although you do get to use it more often.


----------



## boreas

All jokes apart, I find that for 100pts, a 5 psylencer GKSS is pretty nifty. I can guard a home objective while putting out 30 St4 shots in a 24" bubble. 

Phil


----------



## Champion Alaric

Did Dreadnoughts lose their Psycannons??


----------



## Refyougee

where did you guys get the idea that you can get 1 psilencer for every GK? they're bound by the same limit as the psycannons and incinerators...


----------



## Winterous

Champion Alaric said:


> Did Dreadnoughts lose their Psycannons??


They never had them!


----------



## soulreaver296

yup, re-roll one miss. From what I've been looking at, its only good as an anti GEQ in cover, where it BARELY passes over the psycannon. And even then.... YOU SHOULD BE USING AN INCINERATOR.


----------



## Champion Alaric

They had the option in Imperial Armor and I just wanted to know if they gained it. I forgot it wasnt in actual codex lol


----------



## boreas

Refyougee said:


> where did you guys get the idea that you can get 1 psilencer for every GK? they're bound by the same limit as the psycannons and incinerators...


Quite right!!! Somehow I associated the fact that they were free with the fact that every GK could take them doh! :blush:

Seems useless to have only one. It just slows down the squad...

Phil


----------



## Refyougee

yeah, seeing as how GK already have the anti-horde thing down pat i don't think many people will be wasting Psycannon slots on these things...


----------



## soulreaver296

they SHOULD be a unlimited switch, or have a separate switch limit (like heavy vs special weapons). you lose AP5, force weapons, the option for base s5 shooting, and the ability to move and shoot. Course, then it would be heavy 4 or 5, but still would be more attractive.


----------



## victoryd5

Are landraiders going to be dedicated for termis?


----------



## Irbian

News news news! (at least, I hope so)












> The First wave has been confirmed!
> 
> Grey Knight Codex Softback – £17.50 RRP
> 
> Grey Knights Boxed 5 man Set -£20.50 RRp
> 
> Can be built as;
> 
> * A Grey Knight Squad
> * Interceptor Squad (Can teleport 30″ once per game)
> * Purgation Squad (Heavy Support can have psy-cannons, psilencer or incenerators. Have psyk-out grenades and can fire at targets the can not see due to Astral Aim.
> * Purifier Squad (Elite Squad with 2 attacks and the cleansing flame psychic attack)
> 
> The Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight – £33 RRP
> 
> Grey Knight Terminators / Paladins – £27.70
> 
> (Paladins are two wounded ws5 terminators with apothecaries)
> 
> Lord Kaldor Draigo – £13.80 RRP
> 
> (HQ choice that makes Paladins troops and grants D3 universal special rules)
> 
> Castellan Crowe – £10.25
> 
> (Makes Purifier Squads Troops)
> 
> Jokaero Weaponsmith – £7.70 RRP
> 
> An awesome space monkey!



Credit and source to TableTopTyrant


----------



## starfyreXXX

Ok..that cover is actually pretty cool IMHO 

I am very sad that GKs are only 5/box          

Sanjay


----------



## boreas

Haha, the monkey made it in the first wave!!! I like the cover. 

Must put 181 pounds aside!

Phil


----------



## OpTi

if it's £20 for 5 basic GK's there better be a shit ton of weapon options in the box like 2 of each special weapons and 5x NF Swords/Halberds so you have EVERY option available.


----------



## lordsloth

starfyreXXX said:


> I am very sad that GKs are only 5/box


What do you expect? Its a low model count army and they need to sell boxes


----------



## OrdoMalleus

If the 5 man boxed set can be used to make a purgation squad then there should be 4 of every special weapon! I too hope that their is a lot of spare parts so I can back convert my old GKs 

Edit: Sorry Irbian apparently I have to share some love round before I can +Rep you again.......


----------



## Mathai

Well if those prices are consistent with the American release, then I am very pleased. Especially with potentially paying ten dollars less for Terminators.  I have $300 set aside for the release, and at this rate it seems I might have some left over! (Of course that just means I'll be buying more than I originally planned.)


----------



## MadCowCrazy

OrdoMalleus said:


> Edit: Sorry Irbian apparently I have to share some love round before I can +Rep you again.......


I have the exact same problem, then again I only give out rep to people who post something REALLY good in my opinion so it might take a while to get more rep for him.

Damn it people, start posting things I think are awesome so I can hand out more rep :crazy:


----------



## Dagmire

Mad cow crazy is a sex GOD!


----------



## Irbian

Dont worry people, Im glad you like it  I enjoy the rep



A little note. Beware the price, Im not sure if that one is the planned price from GW or if it is for that shop


----------



## RedemptionNL

The prices seems to match other recent sets. The 5 man PAGK for example matches the 5 man Death Company's price exactly.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Yeah. I am starting to put my 300$ to the side, too. Just 130 more^^. I also have to wait to get Rep again, but thanks for the awesome news!!!


----------



## victoryd5

Does anyone have an idea if GKT's can take a landraider as dedicated or is it just a Hvy choice.


----------



## hungryugolino

Jokaero are in? That means...stormtroopers...

WAAAAAAAARRDDDD!


----------



## ibm6789

Sounds like from today's "What's New Today" post that Daemon Hunters are going to be revealed pretty soon, that made me so excited :clapping:


----------



## bhsman

From Earthbeard on Dakka:



> 'm surprised pictures haven't leaked already - saw the pre-release sheet earlier.
> 
> While the models are all nicely done, especially the terminator command squad bits, they don't seem to have the WOW factor I was hoping for.
> 
> The Jokaero looks pretty small - goblin size, is hunched over and has a few tech/bionic bits, that almost look like a mechadendrite. At his price point he seems costly, like DE razor bird costly.
> 
> A lot of the models can come with paired swords, while nice, looks a bit funny.
> 
> A plaguebearer head impaled by a great sword and severed daemonette and bloodletter heads carried as options between the power armour and termi squads.
> 
> The only major aestheic changes are the Special weapons - they all have top handles for the most part, with often over sized ammo boxes etc, looks odd. The psycannon/psilencer? no sure which one? looks like a cross between the old version,and a grenade launcher with a vehicle stormbolter ammobox stuck on.
> 
> The biggest part that they seem lacking is with the helmets sadly. They also seem to be slightly 'off' almost like the homemade ones people make by filing down normal termi heads etc, like they've taken too much off and had no time to do a replacement - but again it's only my opinion.
> 
> Despite his fluff heresies the Draigo model is very nice, termi with ornate sword and very fancy and large stormshield (think FW blacktemplar shield size, if not slightly bigger)
> 
> The guy that has rending with no power weapon (wtf???, only grey knight in the list like it as far as I know?) seems ok, but he suffers from brother captain stern style posing.
> 
> The Dreadknight while a nice and very lovely model - just does not fit the imperium of man or dare I say it even the grimdark world, far too smooth and none archaic looking, would look much better in a tau pr possibly necon army.
> 
> All the guys with hammers look great, and are holding them in lovely action poses.
> 
> The Terminators are the winners overall (it would be draigo, but his fluff marks him down ) - the Termi Apothecary bits are my personal fave. They have an impressive looking three barelled special weapon banners etc.
> 
> All the stormbolter arms look like they come open palm, closed fist, like the sanguinary guard.
> 
> The bare head for the termi captain they used somehow resembles a monkey, satyr horn or the conan style space wolf head, not a fan of it
> 
> Any questions feel free to ask.
> 
> The Teleport squad have perculiar little tesla coils that stick out of the backvents/vains.
> 
> The Termi's make both normal/paladin and cmd squd versions, and from looking at it the power armour guys come with all options, including the special/heavy weapons, though I am unsure if you need to buy more than one box to get a full unit armed with identical weapons.


----------



## GrizBe

> If you have a Daemon problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can enlist...


The Grey Team? 

So who's modeling a terminator with a mohawk now?


----------



## Matosrogue

*Can't Wait*

After lurking on these forums I finally decided to make an account on here.

I'm new to the game (only been playing about 3 months)

I have a 2000 point Raven Guard at the moment, but when I saw Grey Knights I knew I had to play them. Their story is great, and the fact that they are part of the Inquisition is awesome.

Tabletop wise the paladins and Draigo REALLY make me want to play this army. Charge with a couple land raiders and a storm raven, perhaps a Vindicare Assassin (or 2) and wreck. 

This army seems to have a lot of tactical choices built in also which is great. The Dreadknight seems great, and I personally might take the Greatsword if it really does let you reroll to hit and wound with all of its attacks, that's just great. (I also love the model, which most people seem to hate )

..And am I the only person that absolutely loves Draigo's story? He may not have died and nothing may seem completely apparent but, he is a tragic hero in a way. The Garden (or jungle) of Nurgle regrows after it is burnt, and all the daemonic beings he kills reform into another body, although he does rid some of the Greater Daemons and threats, but they are basically without number. You would also think that being perhaps the mightiest Grey Knight of which is (probably) The greatest military might of the Imperium which means he must be thee, or one of the greatest psykers ever would have the power to perform these incredible feats of will and strength, ESPECIALLY when hes surrounded by the energies which support his powers.

No this isn't to bash anyone who doesn't like the fluff  It's me thinking on how badass this guy is haha.

As for the release, I cannot wait. Do we know if models will be in our hands / stores by the 27th or this month or April 1--2? I'd really love to get my hands on a Draigo model and 2 boxes of Paladins and a Dreadknight. I hope Draigo comes with a Helmet, I'm just not a fan of the faces showing.

Is anyone else excited about the cheaper Grey Knight Termies / Paladins compared to the older boxes? I think the PAGK are a little expensive but if they come with multiples of each weapons including all the squads they can be made into, it will surely justify the price.

I think Dreadknights are at a fair price, if not a wee bit high. 

Great thing about all these models is how many models you need, very little. My paladin heavy army with Draigo wont cost me that much with my land raider / rhinos / stormraven painted and ready to go for Grey Knights.

The Codex Cover does look pretty badass I must say. Gotta love that crusader type look of the GK.

Hope Empyrean Brain Mines do give some sort of defense against Psyker Tests, although Warding staves on Librarians and Justicars would minimize fatalities, it'd still be nice. I would still be satisfied if they acted as a defense to enemy Psykers somehow.

I'm also pleased with the different weapon choices, they seem great. If NF Halberds really do give +2 initiative instead of +1 that would be quite happy  though my paladins would use the hammers most likely hah, or a mix who knows.

Anyways, everyone have fun with the Grey Knights when they're released 

Anyways, everyone good luck with their armies


----------



## Champion Alaric

victoryd5 said:


> Does anyone have an idea if GKT's can take a landraider as dedicated or is it just a Hvy choice.


 odds are that they will. it wouldnt make sense not to with the other Hvy choices available now....mebbe be patient a bit longer?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dagmire said:


> Mad cow crazy is a sex GOD!


I wish, my 2minutes of fame is all she gets before I snore like the fat pig I am :crazy:

I have already given you rep so can't give you more until I spend some more elsewhere 





> Originally Posted by Faeslayer View Post
> Jokaero Weaponsmith?!
> 
> They're pullin' me leg, surely!
> 
> 
> 
> No they are there. Weak statline
> poor weapon skill WS1, okay BS3 5++
> 
> Can do random upgrades on squad it is attached too weapons and saves(things like extra 12" range and giving 5++), has digital weapons.
> 
> Also digital weapons can act like either a Lascannon, multi-melta or Heavy-flamer, All Jokaero in unit must pick same weapon type.
> 
> Had little rethink and not sure if Servo Skulls are like mystics or not. I know they something to DSing units but not sure now.
> 
> And yes they are space monkeys
Click to expand...


WS1? Does this make them the crappiest fighters in the game? A unit even Tau would hit on a 3+  I'm sure Lelith would love these guys.


----------



## Doelago

The Cover art of the codex looks amazing, but I have one problem with it... Is it really going to be softback?

Edit:



MadCowCrazy said:


> WS1? Does this make them the crappiest fighters in the game? A unit even Tau would hit on a 3+  I'm sure Lelith would love these guys.


Aun`Va still holds the crappiest fighter title, there is no contest about that.


----------



## ETP

Doelago said:


> The Cover art of the codex looks amazing, but I have one problem with it... Is it really going to be softback?


Shut your whore mouth 

I refuse to pay the extra for hardback. Im very glad its softback.


----------



## Doelago

ETP said:


> Shut your whore mouth


So my mouth is a "whore" now just cause I would prefer hard cover? 

Wait, stop. :stop:

I take that as a direct insult, and were you not a new member you would have lost some of that green rep.


----------



## ETP

Doelago said:


> So my mouth is a "whore" now just cause I would prefer hard cover?
> 
> Wait, stop. :stop:
> 
> I take that as a direct insult, and were you not a new member you would have lost some of that green rep.


lol, well you could rep me and then take it away i suppose.

I'll admit, your mouth may not be as whoresome as I had implied, I just really do dislike the extra charge for hardcover when all my softcovers hold up perfectly well.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Relax mate. He was probably making a Billy Mays, Will Farrell, or Sean Connery joke. They all say something similar to that.


----------



## Doelago

ETP said:


> lol, well you could rep me and then take it away i suppose.


Meeh, I would have to rep ten persons or something in between that, and that takes to much time. Just dropping the number down to the red ones is my usual method of being a bitch about stuff.



ETP said:


> I'll admit, your mouth may not be as whoresome as I had implied, I just really do dislike the extra charge for hardcover when all my softcovers hold up perfectly well.


I happily pay an extra 5€ for hardcover and fullcolor. The way I use my books quickly start taking their toll on them, so that extra sturdiness would never hurt. And hard cover just looks more badass imho.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Shoulda just called him a "street walker-mouth" much less insulting :grin:


----------



## ashikenshin

I hope there is a hardback version. I'm not as careful with books as I should be.


----------



## sybarite

they should have both hard and soft cover.

Hard for the massive / die hard fans, soft for people who don't care as much or are not willing to pay extra.

Even with all are stuff down here being over price as hell l would happily pay extra for hard cover for GK.

For example how bad it is over here the new orcs hard cover book is 62 Aus dollars (or 38.7383 GBP)


----------



## Akhara'Keth

No, Hardback is for throwing it at your opponent. If he still doesn't shut up you take the Rulebook, if it still doesn't help -> metal Chaos Cybot. I don't think that anyone will still talk after he/she got a metal cybot right in the face, but just in case you could throw the metal thunderhawk :biggrin:

btt: Hardcover looks nice but I still prefer softcover. The softcover is lighter and easier to transport.


----------



## Doelago

sybarite said:


> they should have both hard and soft cover.
> 
> Hard for the massive / die hard fans, soft for people who don't care as much or are not willing to pay extra.


Best idea I have heard today!


----------



## Commander_Culln

F**K! I have waited 5 years for my grey knight army to be cheaper than £20 for 5... and it still is -.-


----------



## Vanchet

That is a incredible artwork on the codex 
Glad it was done like that and not done in "Cartoonish" way like the Blood Angels/Imperial Guard


----------



## MadCowCrazy

sybarite said:


> they should have both hard and soft cover.
> 
> Hard for the massive / die hard fans, soft for people who don't care as much or are not willing to pay extra.
> 
> Even with all are stuff down here being over price as hell l would happily pay extra for hard cover for GK.
> 
> For example how bad it is over here the new orcs hard cover book is 62 Aus dollars (or 38.7383 GBP)


Hmm, you could make a fortune buying stuff from Maelstrom with free shipping and then selling the stuff for 20-30% cheaper than Oz prices. I feel really bad for you Ozzies after I did the maths on how boned you really get, it's really despicable for GW to charge you guys 70% more than the RRP in the uk.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the codex will not be hardcover, that seems to be something only for Fantasy for now. Maybe with 6ed they will start making hardcover 40k decies (/facepalm, why can't we just use dexes as GW does...).

As for options I think all rules should be available as PDF for free with the option for a print on demand service where you could chose either softback or hardback. This way they could update the rules more often and more easily, people would be more inclined to start new armies or try them out and in the end make more money than before (if it's true that GW actually doesn't make a profit from the decies any ways). 

A yearly revision of the rules, in December would be good as they never release anything new in that month anyway. This way they could solve problems they obviously failed to see when they were playtesting. It would be an easy way to add new units to the armies and allow for allot more time actually making models than messing up the fluff. Stat cards for all units would be awesome as well, a small statcard with all the special rules and stats for old and new kits.

It's just so frustrating to know that GW will most likely not take this route until they crash and burn as a company. I'm looking forwards to they day they do so someone else can take over the company and hopefully change it for the better.


----------



## Matosrogue

Doelago said:


> I happily pay an extra 5€ for hardcover and fullcolor. The way I use my books quickly start taking their toll on them, so that extra sturdiness would never hurt. And hard cover just looks more badass imho.


I would definitely love a hardcover version of the book myself. It looks great in full color, the extra durability is nice and If you can pay to play Warhammer 40k, I'm quite positive you can pay an extra 8(USD) for a Hardcover 

And I must say it again, yay for Paladin Sets costing quite a few dollars less than the old Termy sets that are out.

Also Excited for Kaldor Draigo because my paladin heavy army, With his ornate sword and supposed large storm shield, he'd make a great centerpiece.


----------



## Champion Alaric

While i feel for the aussies getting jacked..they DO live very very far from the manufacturer and shipping is NOT cheap. Not defending GW (who does?) but the sheer logistics..


----------



## sybarite

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, you could make a fortune buying stuff from Maelstrom with free shipping and then selling the stuff for 20-30% cheaper than Oz prices. I feel really bad for you Ozzies after I did the maths on how boned you really get, it's really despicable for GW to charge you guys 70% more than the RRP in the uk.


Thank you for the concen,
But don't worry to much that is the main reason why l shop online and not at my store.

l do feel some people have quit for this reason even if l log on to the games workshop website and go to the UK store and not the AUS store l see the same book sell's 22.50 (or 36 Aus doll) that is almost a %100 cost mark up from the same store.

yes its ture you also have to pay for shipping (and for a book it cost about 5 to 10 bucks) but you still save a ton. l will be buying my whole army from wayland games just to save on cost


----------



## coke123

GrizBe said:


> The Grey Team?
> 
> So who's modeling a terminator with a mohawk now?


I'm thinking of doing a Land Raider as a black and grey Panel Van.

And that cover pic is sweet. Nice find- have some rep.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Champion Alaric said:


> While i feel for the aussies getting jacked..they DO live very very far from the manufacturer and shipping is NOT cheap. Not defending GW (who does?) but the sheer logistics..


Well, companies like Maelstrom Games seem to be able to ship worldwide for free, and they're way below Australian RRP prices. I'm sure they're not selling them at a loss.


----------



## Champion Alaric

RedemptionNL said:


> Well, companies like Maelstrom Games seem to be able to ship worldwide for free, and they're way below Australian RRP prices. I'm sure they're not selling them at a loss.


Good point. but i think it's the stores that ding them. I can ship from the states for as much as i can buy from a store, including shipping. Thanks in part to a stronger dollar. But it seems you guys down there have to pay ALOT more for instant gratification (insert dirty joke)


----------



## Coyote77

Doelago said:


> So my mouth is a "whore" now just cause I would prefer hard cover?
> 
> Wait, stop. :stop:
> 
> I take that as a direct insult, and were you not a new member you would have lost some of that green rep.


Really ?:shok:

Even with the raspberry you take offense ? Sensitive. Frankly, I'd rather a soft cover with a hard cover released for like a second wave.


----------



## Coyote77

OrdoMalleus said:


> If the 5 man boxed set can be used to make a purgation squad then there should be 4 of every special weapon! I too hope that their is a lot of spare parts so I can back convert my old GKs
> 
> Edit: Sorry Irbian apparently I have to share some love round before I can +Rep you again.......


Or just one each of the special weapons, like a Chaos Havoc squad.


----------



## coke123

The reason Australian GW prices are all high is because all Australian retail is stupidly high. It's not just GW, everyone in retail overcharges in this country. It's the same in real estate- Australia is just a ridiculously expensive place to live in general. And IIRC video games have a similar markup to GW models. It's not GW being retarded, it's just them pricing themselves in line with the rest of the market.

It's actually quite funny- whilst we have come out of the recession, many retailers are complaining that they are struggling due to increased competition with online stores- which people basically started using to save money during the GFC, and now haven't changed back. If Aussie retailers would just stop expecting so much of their customers (or should I say target market, since many are without customers) they would do a lot better.


----------



## raven925

bhsman said:


> The Dreadknight while a nice and very lovely model - just does not fit the imperium of man or dare I say it even the grimdark world, far too smooth and none archaic looking, would look much better in a tau pr possibly necon army.


Hmm, im surprised from seeing all the people complaining about Imperium tech being too boxy, that someone would say something about having a cleaner looking model rather than the usual style... oh well, to each his own.


----------



## Irbian

just let you know, there are several facebook events with the unboxing party tomorrow so:
a) if you go to one, take your camera
b) tomorrow night probably we´ll be able to see the first sprue pictures


----------



## sybarite

coke123 said:


> The reason Australian GW prices are all high is because all Australian retail is stupidly high. It's not just GW, everyone in retail overcharges in this country. It's the same in real estate- Australia is just a ridiculously expensive place to live in general. And IIRC video games have a similar markup to GW models. It's not GW being retarded, it's just them pricing themselves in line with the rest of the market.


while that is ture for some stores this is the games workshop "online store"
as for viedo games that is really random, as we do get it cheaper then other places and some times it cost more. (as long as you don't go to say EB games)


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

EDIT: Message deleted as previously stated in earlier posts. Why is there no delete feature on this?

I can't wait for the unboxing tomorrow. I wish I could take work off  Hopefully, now people can stop complaining about every little thing from the leaked codex now. Already we see that the DK didn't turn out to be as high in S and T as it was first thought. Also, I hope other inquisitors allow henchmen to be troops....


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I think Oz land should pay more for GW stuff. They live in a beautiful country and should be outdoors not indoors. I had a stay in Perth once and I swear to God that if anything happens to my wife I am so done with this country and am going to move to Aussie country.
side note: It is fucked up how you guys do have to pay more for the same shit.


----------



## Hurricane

I'm curious as to what they may include for a 1.5 or second wave release. Perhaps some henchmen models and more blisters of special characters?

Also, does anyone know how long it takes discount sites like the Warstore to have new kits available for sale?


----------



## coke123

sybarite said:


> while that is ture for some stores this is the games workshop "online store"
> as for viedo games that is really random, as we do get it cheaper then other places and some times it cost more. (as long as you don't go to say EB games)


Ah, touche. But GW's online store is only priced so asto avoid competing with it's own stores. When i say online stores, I don't mean the David Jones or Myer online stores, I mean independant online stores. Who do we get video games cheaper than, though? And as for EB games, you most certainly are correct- but even then I'm pretty sure that even the cheaper prices we get on games are more expensive than the ones in, say, America. Having been there in january 2010, I can most certainly attest that games are universally cheaper in japan as well.


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

From Ruleslawyer (responses to "the gribbly") on Warseer:


> what do the following pieces of wargear do:
> -psychotroke grenades (Random abilities from 1- nothing to 6- models in unit make individual test and those that fail attack own unit first)
> -orbital strike relay (basically same as space marine but more choices/options per turn used)
> -daemonblade (random daemonic abilities)
> -hellrifle (36" S6 AP4 rending Possibly Heavy1)
> -condemnar boltgun (missed this one)
> -null rod (and this)
> -psyocculum (and this)
> -scythian venom talon (+2 poisoned weapon that I think can attack owner)
> -ulumeatni plasma syphon (unit firing plasma weapon/s at unit containing this are treated as BS1)
> 
> Thank you
> Okay, I ll try and remember more


----------



## Wusword77

To the topic of news and rumors I bring you what is thought to be the dreadknight stats from the black box codex. I got this info from /tg/, posted by a person who claims to work at a GW store. He/she/it scanned the cover of the codex for evidence to show it was legit. Make of it what you will but it seems legit to me.

Dread knight Heavy support

5, 4, 6, 6, 4, 3, ld 10
MC
Special rules
Preffered enemy
The aegis
Physic pilot
Psycher level 1

(a VV squad with melta bomb from SM dex)points

Upgrades (not limited to thes only a selection)
may take up to 2 of the following
heavy incenerator (thunder hammer cost from VV)
gatling psylencer (cost of a Lascannon from SM Dev squad)
heavy psycannon (Cost of an Attack Bike from SM dex)

replace doom fists with
daemon hammer (cost of a PF from VV for Sergent)
great sword (Cost of a PF for regular model from VV)
may take personal teleporter (cost of a Scout Squad)

Changes from the play test dex is that it's 6 str and toughness as opposed to 7.

The person has also stated that there are 2 FA choices: Storm Raven and GK Interceptor Squads.


----------



## StalkerZero

Irbian said:


> just let you know, there are several facebook events with the unboxing party tomorrow so:
> a) if you go to one, take your camera
> b) tomorrow night probably we´ll be able to see the first sprue pictures


It is also most likely bring your scanner to work day. I will wait until I have a copy in hand to peek though.


----------



## Synack

In reference to a question about psykout grenades (I think it was anyway)


> daemons are pskers are I 1 till next turn when charged by unit with these


----------



## Coyote77

Synack said:


> In reference to a question about psykout grenades (I think it was anyway)


The only demons that are psykers are CSM demon princes. The Chaos Daemon army has 'gifts'. I call shenanigans.


----------



## Mathai

I think it meant to read 'Daemons *and* Psykers are I1'


----------



## Scorpio

Or is could be that the sentence should be 

"daemons and/or psykers are I 1 till next turn when charged by unit with these"

since they're called PSYKout 'nades, which should affect the common psyker and not just daemon psykers

Edit: Doh! ninjaed


----------



## Synack

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=15800027a


----------



## godzy

Seem as though falchions are actually a pair of swords, not lightning claws.

edit- speed type-os


----------



## coke123

Well, considering that a Falchion is a sword...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/falchion

People were referring to it as Lightning Claws only to describe their rules- but a Falchion is indeed a curved broadsword.


----------



## thehobbz

Well just seen the Getting Started with Grey Knights article and all I shall say is

wow


----------



## Lesiu

And Advance Orders are up too:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440160a

It looks like there is one psilencer, one incinerator, but *TWO* psycannons on the PA Grey Knights sprues:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...1a_99120107002_GreyKnightsSprue02_873x627.jpg


----------



## betrayer01

Removed, too late


----------



## firstandonly246

Woot! April 2nd is the release! Need to save some more cash. This is going to empty my wallet, but its going to be worth it!


----------



## Synack

You can see the full army list here. They are using alot of the old models still, for instance, the brotherhood champ is the old justicar model


----------



## Irbian

Now, two questions come to my mind

- Where is the jokaero?
- Will mix well the old and the new ones?

ps: Synack, mental rep for you, I cant give you just now


----------



## Synack

They look like they'll mix decently well, I can't see it being a huge problem.

I'm probably going to buy 4x PAGK boxes and 2x TAGk boxes, magnetise them, and they should supplement the metal models I currently have.

Then just need to buy AV stuff. I'm probably going to stay away from the DK for now, after finding out that the Heavy Psycannon is Large blast, I'm a little less inclined to use them, I'd rather have purg squads.


----------



## Brovius

I'm getting at least two of every kit 
Probably will eng up using my metal PAGKs as Purifiers with halberds, and use the new models for everything else. 
I'm shocked that almost everything in this playtest codex has turned out to be true!
In Draigo's summary on the GW site, Mat Ward even mentions The Grand Strategy, and apparently Dreadnoughts can benefit from the special rules 

EDIT: Dreadknight looks a lot like I thought it would. I shall now call it, the Graithlord


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It seems C:GK has more Witch Hunter units than C:WH does nowadays 
If GW were to discontinue the sisters range this would be the final nail in the coffin then again this also means that there will not be a new C:WH but it will instead most likely be C:SoB like it used to be and should always have been.

I am a bit worried about some of the iconic units not being in C:SoB though, like Arco flagellants. I'd really like to see them make it into C:SoB, I like the freak show units.

It seems they have discontinued the DH Inquisitor box, I still have 2 unopened. I should probably sell them.


----------



## Lord of the Night

The Grey Knights are looking fantastic and that Nemesis Dreadknight is fucking awesome, ahh damn it all. I just can't decide which army to get, Dark Eldar or Grey Knights. Both have been favorites of mine ever since I became a 40k fan, its a devil of a choice. Either way i'm happy but I just can't make up my mind, both require strategy and skill to use and both are extremely cool in my opinion. Hmm, this is going to require lots of thought. April 23rd is the day I get my army, or a few days later, so I've got plenty of time to choose.

Lord of the Night


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> It seems they have discontinued the DH Inquisitor box, I still have 2 unopened. I should probably sell them.


Which ones?


On other topic, the miniatures.

At first sight.... I dont like it. Let me explain. I was expecting so much about them that just now Im a little dissapointed. But is something temporal, I know that I will finally love them.

Its only that not now 

* Draigo:
I was expecting a more dynamic pose. Maybe fighting. Maybe just walking badass. The shield is not very functional and have something that just dont fit. Dont like the face either. I prefer the FW inquisitor in several levels and probably he will be my draigo.

* Exterminators
The one who described them were right. The heads look like a conversion. I was expecting something more elaborated. I like the body but the metal ones were more stylized IMHO. I love the details nowadays and I will make a apothecary and banner even if I dont use them. I would like storm shields, not for the rules, but for the knightly theme

* PA GK
Love the one with the sword in the ground. I think the metals one have more detail. Prefer the old stormbolter. looking for more massive hammers. Not convinced about the falchions, too broad.


* Dreadknight
Too little imperial. Need more blocky.

* Fluff
Its supposed to be created by Malcador. By Malcador was dead (lexicanum info) isnt it? And rumoured to be the emperor the geneseed source

This is NOT a whine (only it seems XD), but I have some ideas to convert here and there.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Arco flagellants are in the Grey Knight codex now, so I'm not sure if they'll be in the next Sisters of Battle codex. I wouldn't be suprised if the Inquisition part is completely removed from their next codex, and it's just Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy.


----------



## Winterous

The heads on the Terminators look fine.

Compare these two pictures.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...0136a_99120107001_GKTerminators01_873x627.jpg
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...99060107008_INQGKTrmPsycannonmain_873x627.jpg

As you can see, the helmets look very very similar.
The main difference I can see is that the old helmets sloped in much more steeply towards the neck.
The new ones look more realistic, and in my opinion, BETTER.


----------



## Winterous

RedemptionNL said:


> Arco flagellants are in the Grey Knight codex now, so I'm not sure if they'll be in the next Sisters of Battle codex. I wouldn't be suprised if the Inquisition part is completely removed from their next codex, and it's just Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy.


Acro-Flagellants are an Ecclesiarchy unit, it's a form of punishment.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This one, at least I cant find it










It was stated over a year ago by Stickmonkey I believe that codex GKs would focus on the knights and the Inquisition and that Codex:SoB would focus on the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy. I guess it all turned out to be true (so far).
I'm guessing that instead of Inquisitorial warbands we will get frateris militia warbands or something like that.



Winterous said:


> Acro-Flagellants are an Ecclesiarchy unit, it's a form of punishment.


You are correct, and if the crime is so severe that not even Arco-flagellation is punishment enough they are strapped to Penitent Engines.


----------



## boreas

Wow... finally.... Seems like a dream  I really like the models, a lot more dynamic.

My only negative point: The dreadknight is a big mama with a baby GK strapped to it's chest. 

Phil

Oh, the GW page does confirm that there is only 1000 GKs! Finally, that's settled


----------



## Winterous

Huh, there's no model for Cortaez or however you spell it, now.
So they're definitely redoing his model, or you'd already be able to pre-order a re-packaged version.



MadCowCrazy said:


> You are correct, and if the crime is so severe that not even Arco-flagellation is punishment enough they are strapped to Penitent Engines.


I thought Penitent engines were for those who had committed severe crimes unworthy of redemption, but were still faithful to the Emperor, and wanted to make up for their evil acts, by being put in a Penitent Engine as not only punishment but a machine of war, fighting for those they have wronged.

And I thought that Acro-Flagellation was what they do to you if your crimes are so horrible that not even death is punishment enough.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

C:WH Arco-flagellants
Arco-flagellation is a judgement that can be carried out on those found guilty of heresy or any of the multitude of crimes against the Emperor.

C:WH Penitent Engines
When a repentant heretics crimes are so heinous that not even arco-flagellation is punishment enough, he may be interred in one of the ancient and holy shriving machines known as a Penitent Engine. Driven by the heretics frenzied need for forgiveness, the armoured machine charges forward into the enemy ranks, knowing that only in death can forgiveness be granted. Such machines are holy relics in themselves and a potent reminder of the fate of heretics.

Funny how they strap heretics to "holy relics" so they can redeem themselves...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

*GK Getting Started Article on GW Website-Some Wargear Options Explained!*

The article for the new GK Getting Started Article is now found on the GW website, found HERE

In addition some wargear options are now explained.

It seems Nemesis Force Weapons are now just plain force weapons at least. No S bonus implied.

Nemesis Force Halberds are the same but add +2 I to the GK (I6 GK's sound incredibly scary!).

Nemesis Warding Staves give a 2++ save in CC only :shok::shok:

Psycannons can still fire assault or heavy modes.

Psilencers shoot 6 shots but lack of any other description makes it sound rubbish.

Not sure about how accurate the psychic powers in the leaked codex but here are some mentioned for squads

Hammerhand: Increases S in combat
Warp Quake: Seems to interrupt deep strikers
Cleansing Flame and Astral Aim: Only for Purifier squads-no description mentioned
Fortitude: For vehicles-nulls effects of stunned and shaken results
Dark Excommunication: For dreadknights-Allows him to effect Chaos Gifts in some way


----------



## Winterous

Only repentant ones.
And they're holy because they're ancient and revered, their purpose is to have heretics strapped to them.


----------



## victoryd5

Maybe it is me but I am bothered by the fact that landraiders are not dedicated for the termis. I geuss that gw is trying to sell storm ravens. This might cripple the termis if you want to also field 3 DKs.


----------



## Synack

victoryd5 said:


> Maybe it is me but I am bothered by the fact that landraiders are not dedicated for the termis. I geuss that gw is trying to sell storm ravens. This might cripple the termis if you want to also field 3 DKs.


There is a VERY good reason for it.

You can give d3 squads a USR with the GM's ability. One of those abilities is Scout. So if you gave it to the termies, and they had a LR as a dedicated transport, then the transport can take the scout move.

Since the LR is not a dedicated transport, this can't be abused.

I personally wish I could abuse this, but I see from a balance point of view, why you can't


----------



## Azezel

Arco-flagellants are pretty well mindless, drugged and lobotomised. One level about a servitor. It's a horrible fate, but the subject isn't exactly suffering.

It's the Imperium's way of saying 'your mind lacked faith, but your body can still serve'.

They are Ecclesiarchal, so far as I know, but there's no reason why the Ordo Hereticus or other Ordos of the Inquisitioncould not employ Arco-Flagelation if it wanted to. Or just ask the Ecclesiarchy for a batch. There certainly exist inquisitors that could find a use for such creatures.

Those condemned to pilot a Penitent Engine are not so fortunate, they are plumbed into that thing fully concious and aware. As stated, this is only for those who truely repent.


----------



## victoryd5

Thanks synack I had not thought about that.


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> They are Ecclesiarchal, so far as I know, but there's no reason why the Ordo Hereticus or other Ordos of the Inquisitioncould not employ Arco-Flagelation if it wanted to. Or just ask the Ecclesiarchy for a batch. There certainly exist inquisitors that could find a use for such creatures.


I think that Arco-Flagellants will be in the SOB codex, because you cannot have SOB without Ecclesiarchal allies, it's like asking for smoking without the cancer.
Arco-Flagellants are Ecclesiarchal property, ergo, they'll be accessible by the SOB.

That's about the long and short of it.

GK armies have access to them because individual Inquisitors may have ties to figures of authority in the Ecclesiarchy, so they can call in favours, a few cybernetically biologically enhanced killings machines here and there, no one will care, they aren't important enough to keep strictly limited to members of the Ecclesiarchy.


----------



## godzy

from /tg/ the interceptor squad is the SSGK with personal teleporters. the SSGK cant have them any more. the cost is as the leak, just add the costs. I guess that terminators AND jump infantry in troops was too good in play-tests.


----------



## boreas

Oh, and ridiculous canadian prices strikes again!

4 GKSS boxes, 2 GKT boxes, 2 NDK boxes, 1 codex: From my local store: 500CDN$. Shipped around the world by Wayland (free ship. voucher): 285CDN$ 

:fool:

Phil


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Winterous said:


> Huh, there's no model for Cortaez or however you spell it, now.
> So they're definitely redoing his model, or you'd already be able to pre-order a re-packaged version.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Penitent engines were for those who had committed severe crimes unworthy of redemption, but were still faithful to the Emperor, and wanted to make up for their evil acts, by being put in a Penitent Engine as not only punishment but a machine of war, fighting for those they have wronged.
> 
> And I thought that Acro-Flagellation was what they do to you if your crimes are so horrible that not even death is punishment enough.


Its because he already has a model. It comes in a boxset with henchman.


----------



## andrewm9

Winterous said:


> I think that Arco-Flagellants will be in the SOB codex, because you cannot have SOB without Ecclesiarchal allies, it's like asking for smoking without the cancer.
> Arco-Flagellants are Ecclesiarchal property, ergo, they'll be accessible by the SOB.
> 
> That's about the long and short of it.
> 
> GK armies have access to them because individual Inquisitors may have ties to figures of authority in the Ecclesiarchy, so they can call in favours, a few cybernetically biologically enhanced killings machines here and there, no one will care, they aren't important enough to keep strictly limited to members of the Ecclesiarchy.


Its not so much that Inquisitor's wouldn't be able to get them, but that are a unique unit that the Sisters could keep to themselves when their codex comes out again and now they will lose it (unlikley) or share it with another codex. Can't either army have its own flavor without needing to steal anothers. Whats more likley to have occured is that no one writing Grey Knights was told or knew that it was an Ecclesiarchy only unit. They assumed that it was an Inquisitorial unit like so many of the actual players of "Inqusition armies." Not top marginalize those players but its a common misconception.


----------



## Irbian

MadCowCrazy said:


> This one, at least I cant find it



You are right. So... coteaz in wave 1.5? the old model is pretty cool so I will have to buy it while I can



> Its because he already has a model. It comes in a boxset with henchman.


See above


----------



## Irbian

Double post:

Nothing great, but photos of the black box
http://tabletoptyrant.co.uk/Tyrants/?p=906

Edit:


MayorWesJanson(sorry for misspelling the name) said:


> Coteaz as a blister will probably join Crowe and Jokero in 2 weeks.


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> I think that Arco-Flagellants will be in the SOB codex, because you cannot have SOB without Ecclesiarchal allies, it's like asking for smoking without the cancer.
> Arco-Flagellants are Ecclesiarchal property, ergo, they'll be accessible by the SOB.
> 
> That's about the long and short of it.
> 
> GK armies have access to them because individual Inquisitors may have ties to figures of authority in the Ecclesiarchy, so they can call in favours, a few cybernetically biologically enhanced killings machines here and there, no one will care, they aren't important enough to keep strictly limited to members of the Ecclesiarchy.


That's certainly the way I perceive it. Hell, aparantly the Inquisition employs xenos and daemons now, they idea that they might borrow a murderbot from the churh is nothing compared to that.




andrewm9 said:


> Its not so much that Inquisitor's wouldn't be able to get them, but that are a unique unit that the Sisters could keep to themselves when their codex comes out again and now they will lose it (unlikley) or share it with another codex. Can't either army have its own flavor without needing to steal anothers. Whats more likley to have occured is that no one writing Grey Knights was told or knew that it was an Ecclesiarchy only unit. They assumed that it was an Inquisitorial unit like so many of the actual players of "Inqusition armies." Not top marginalize those players but its a common misconception.


Wait, are you accusing _Mat Ward_ of making an error in fluff!? That's a pretty weighty allegation there, Old Man.

Sarcasm asside, no-one told the 'Eavy Metal team that Penitent Engines are church units, so they slapped =][= decals all over them in the WH codex, same deal.


----------



## Dagmire

Dagmire said:


> Just a little up date.
> The GKs should be up on the GW website on weds. As far as i know you shall be able to pre order stuff then too.


Hate to quote myself but..........


----------



## Synack

In the picture here, crowe is suppose to be the guy in the top right with the cape.

He's with a squad. What do you think the chances are that he lack of IC status slipped into the codex and it'll be FAQed?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

It has often been written in books and fluff that Inquisitors use Arco-Flagellants as henchmen and Daemonhosts as well. The argument is that Arco-Flagellants might not make an appearance in the Sisters codex.

There are a few units I would really like to see in the Sisters dex as they are some of my favourites, amongst these are the assassins, death cult and arco-flagellants. Then again if no Inquisitors are present they would not be able to field assassins, death cult I'm not sure about and arcos are Ecclesiarchy units so they should be pretty safe.

Could one assume that maybe codex Sisters of Battle will basically be a copy of codex Grey Knights but the change all the GK entries for Sisters and Ecclesiarchy units.
I could certainly see them doing this but I dont think I would be happy with that.

I like the freak show, it's one of the reasons I loved the WH codex but it now seems most of the freaks are in C:GK so what does this leave for the Sisters?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, codex GKs in more like a combined codex to me than a separate codex. Only thing missing are the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy units but I digress...


----------



## jimbo1701

Anyone else spot Crowe hiding in the back row:


----------



## Synack

jimbo1701 said:


> Anyone else spot Crowe hiding in the back row:


Yeah, like I was saying, it's weird they picture him with a squad, but he doesn't have the IC special rule (apparently confirmed).


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> Yeah, like I was saying, it's weird they picture him with a squad, but he doesn't have the IC special rule (apparently confirmed).


It's very possible that this is another Death Company Tycho case, where GW utterly fails to comprehend its own rules.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Katie Drake said:


> It's very possible that this is another Death Company Tycho case, where GW utterly fails to comprehend its own rules.


Please don't say that, it worries me so. After Tycho sucking for the longest time he was so close to being redeemed until the Death Company version lost IC status. I mean if he was a DC upgrade that would be great, but instead they just made him plain lame again. When will Tycho ever be awesome? 

For that matter why are there so many Ostriches?


----------



## lordsloth

Katie Drake said:


> It's very possible that this is another Death Company Tycho case, where GW utterly fails to comprehend its own rules.


If his (horrible) leaked version fluff hasnt changed then its likely he will remain without IC status. I seem to recall something about how the sword he carries would taint anybody but him, makes sense (fluffwise, not ruleswise) that he would lonewolf it.


----------



## jimbo1701

I'm quite happy for Crowe to be a non-IC - it adds a bit of flavour and supports his fluff nicely (he's the uncorruptable chap and only he can wield the sword etc). Making purifiers (hate the white on gunmetal helmets) troops is a great bonus in itself.


----------



## Doelago

I am so fucking excited! God damnit! Emperor bless us! Holy shit! The best models I have ever seen, and my 9 year old brother agreed with me on that one, so it has to be true!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Allot of alternatives for the Dreadknight has started popping up.

Like this one from Dakka









Here is my own take on it


----------



## Mathai

Question: If Lord Kaldor Draigo banished the Daemon Prince M'Kar as a 'lowly' battle brother, and ever since his battle with M'Kar he has been stuck in the Warp, where did he get his Terminator armor from?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Mathai said:


> Question: If Lord Kaldor Draigo banished the Daemon Prince M'Kar as a battle brother,and ever since his battle with M'Kar he has been stuck in the Warp, where did he get his Terminator armor from?


Don't be so rational! :laugh:


----------



## Mathai

Draigo nabbed M'karr, Stern offed M'kachen. Big difference. :laugh:


----------



## GrizBe

Demon What-now? :laugh:


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Mathai said:


> Question: If Lord Kaldor Draigo banished the Daemon Prince M'Kar as a 'lowly' battle brother, and ever since his battle with M'Kar he has been stuck in the Warp, where did he get his Terminator armor from?


In the new fluff, Tactical Dreadnought Armour (AKA termies =P) is standard issue as soon as a GK is elevated to full battle brother ( Hence why termies are troops)

Also, If Crowe is is indeed not an IC as in the leaked dex, then it seems a bit stupid for him to have the "herald of titan" (Unit he has joined my re-roll to hit on the turn they charge) special rule..........


----------



## Irbian

Hell is big

Just one then hehehe

With that size, I was expecting more than t6


----------



## Baron Spikey

There are going to be so many Knight Titan conversions with that thing...


----------



## ANARCHY

I also do think the normal SM's are too expensive, even though you do get everything you need to make anything you need...
It's just too much, almost double the price.
And i wouldn't mind having to buy seperate kits for different setups, i am quite used to it collecting Ultramarines.
That said, it looks great, except for the Dreadknight. I think it sux, but i'm gonna have to get at least 2 anyway.

Now to wait for what's actually in the Codex.
Alas, release is still 3 weeks away, waiting sux.


----------



## oiad

Katie Drake said:


> It's very possible that this is another Death Company Tycho case, where GW utterly fails to comprehend its own rules.


In some ways, being a non-IC is fine as it means his enemy bonus won't affect an attached squad at least. Mr. Ward could have avoided this whole fiasco by giving him a personal teleporter instead. All the viable non-IC/upgrades have good movement across the board. Somehow I feel he didn't consider it. Too bad if so, many will be annoyed to no end.


----------



## Mathai

OrdoMalleus said:


> In the new fluff, Tactical Dreadnought Armour (AKA termies =P) is standard issue as soon as a GK is elevated to full battle brother ( Hence why termies are troops)


Ahhh, that makes more sense than my theory. I was figuring Space Marine armor worked like Pokemon and evolved when they reached a certain level. :grin:


----------



## oiad

Wait! I've heard this one before... If they all have access to TDA then why do they drop -1A & -1Ld in PA still? :dunno:


----------



## Synack

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is my own take on it


I actually like that and I have a pentient engine that I never put together, sitting in my cuboard. I may actually do that conversion, if I have the balls to hack apart a £33 model, knowing my conversion skills.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Stephen_Newman said:


> The article for the new GK Getting Started Article is now found on the GW website, found HERE
> 
> In addition some wargear options are now explained.
> 
> It seems Nemesis Force Weapons are now just plain force weapons at least. No S bonus implied.
> 
> Nemesis Force Halberds are the same but add +2 I to the GK (I6 GK's sound incredibly scary!).
> 
> Nemesis Warding Staves give a 2++ save in CC only :shok::shok:
> 
> Psycannons can still fire assault or heavy modes.
> 
> Psilencers shoot 6 shots but lack of any other description makes it sound rubbish.
> 
> Not sure about how accurate the psychic powers in the leaked codex but here are some mentioned for squads
> 
> Hammerhand: Increases S in combat
> Warp Quake: Seems to interrupt deep strikers
> Cleansing Flame and Astral Aim: Only for Purifier squads-no description mentioned
> Fortitude: For vehicles-nulls effects of stunned and shaken results
> Dark Excommunication: For dreadknights-Allows him to effect Chaos Gifts in some way


I read on the GW website that Astral Aim allows them to fire even though they don't have line of sight. Or at least that's what was implied.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...ex=2&aId=15800027a&multiPageMode=true&start=3

Under Attack & Defence


----------



## Irbian

oiad said:


> Wait! I've heard this one before... If they all have access to TDA then why do they drop -1A & -1Ld in PA still? :dunno:


Because you are more afraid of shitting your pants (a.k.a you are less protected)


The -1A is for the armour type. Something that I dont get, you are supposed to be more agile in PA


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Synack said:


> I actually like that and I have a pentient engine that I never put together, sitting in my cuboard. I may actually do that conversion, if I have the balls to hack apart a £33 model, knowing my conversion skills.


Sorry but it just wont be possible to do this conversion, reason being that the Dreadknight is allot taller and bigger than the Penitent Engine. If there was a 54mm Inquisitor sized model of the PE then it might be possible. The girl strapped to the dread should be half her size in that picture to be accurate to scale. The weapons arms should be scaled down by 50% as well.
I guess you could do a plasticard conversion though.


----------



## aboytervigon

I believe its cause in terminator armour you can just walk up to th bad you ignoring his weapons and FALCON PAWNCH him in the face.


----------



## OrdoMalleus

oiad said:


> Wait! I've heard this one before... If they all have access to TDA then why do they drop -1A & -1Ld in PA still? :dunno:



Because Mattward wrote it????....(thats my generic answer to everything that doesnt make sense in the new`dex lol :laugh

I Actually have no idea why the drop an attack an a Ld :S on the plus side I had a couple of playtests today using the apparent leaked rules...

Was quite fun actually, made a nice change for my GKs to pull tricks out of their sleeves rather than the standard "Turn 1: shoot, Turn 2 Shoot, Turn 3 Charge" (which seems to be the only viable build I have....):boredom:

I took 10 Termies split into 2 combat squads:
1 squad had 2psycannos, a halberd and the rest with falchions to sit on an objective with a libby.
the 2nd squad was with a halberd and the rest with falchions with a Castellan Crowe in a stormraven.
*It was only after the game that we realised the crowe doesnt have the IC rule......

2 Squads of Purifiers with 4 Psycannons in each split into combat sqauds
2 Dreadnoughts ( one with T/L Las +ML, other with MM)
Techmarine with CB


One of the best games I have had in a while. 2nd game was changed to some of the other units. Tried Draigo, Paladins etc.
Points:
-Pyscannons are nasty: you can spam them without hindering yourself:victory:
-Combat squading is a gift as allows you take the "10 man" options
-Draigo is may not be as much of a beast as other 275pt charectors, but he can dish it out and when in a unit of paladins is a **** to take out. Only problem was he didnt have enough time to munch the enemys entire army:training:.
-Termies need falchions, If your used to Str.6 (like I am) theses badboys help compensate for the loss. On top of this we played that since they "count as a pair of lighting claws" you get the +1Atk for two weapons. Combine the "herald of titan" rule with a squad with falcions and brother hood banner you get 25Atks Re-rolling Hits+Wounds. Horrific:victory:
-Stormpigeons are overpriced IMO
-Ward Staves are not cost effective
-Paladins will attract a LOT of fire which can save the rest of your army. Still not sure if they are worth their points.
-Quicksilver, Warprift and might of Titan psychic powers for libbies are worth their weight in gold. I would be surprised to see many GK armies without a librarian
-Purifiers are better than GKSS all round, and definitely worth losing an HQ choice and the increase in points per man to take as troops.


I know somethings have changed in the final dex but it was still good to get a feeling for it before it comes out:training:


----------



## Akhara'Keth

aboytervigon said:


> I believe its cause in terminator armour you can just walk up to th bad you ignoring his weapons and FALCON PAWNCH him in the face.


you mean, like this?


----------



## Geist

Dreadknight is...interesting...








Everything else looks awesome though. If I can ever get past the horrible stomach-flu-giving fluff then maybe I could buy an army, or at least get a few models to paint.


----------



## oiad

Irbian said:


> Because you are more afraid of shitting your pants (a.k.a you are less protected)
> 
> The -1A is for the armour type. Something that I dont get, you are supposed to be more agile in PA


The fearless GKs shit themselves? Hehe, nice try anyway. :wink:



OrdoMalleus said:


> Because Mattward wrote it????....(thats my generic answer to everything that doesnt make sense in the new`dex lol :laugh


No worries, plenty of people have been using this as an excuse of late. :biggrin:



OrdoMalleus said:


> -Purifiers are better than GKSS all round, and definitely worth losing an HQ choice and the increase in points per man to take as troops.


This we've been figuring. Glad to have it tested...



OrdoMalleus said:


> -Termies need falchions, If your used to Str.6 (like I am) theses badboys help compensate for the loss. On top of this we played that since they "count as a pair of lighting claws" you get the +1Atk for two weapons. Combine the "herald of titan" rule with a squad with falcions and brother hood banner you get 25Atks Re-rolling Hits+Wounds. Horrific:victory:


...This is where I couldn't believe I didn't pick up on it sooner. So Falchions do count as pairs and basically provide the +1A we've been wanting? Suddenly a challenge to the +2I Halberd has been found and I like it. I shiver to think what will happen when you add that to the banner bonus with charging Paladins.


----------



## Irbian

ok, we know that there are no scouts. But I like the scout idea... so... what about a catachan dude (with grey knight body), with PW + SS that count as crusader? Something like "Some GK training doing jobs for the inquisition far from daemons"

idea? opinion?


----------



## Malgron

Defiler bits are probably the right size


----------



## Winterous

Irbian said:


> The -1A is for the armour type. Something that I dont get, you are supposed to be more agile in PA


......
It genuinely amazes me that no one has picked it up yet.

Power Armoured Grey Knights have reduced stats because THEY ARE THE INITIATES!
They aren't full Battle Brothers yet, they haven't earned the Terminator Armour.
Grey Knights don't DO Scouts, they're too elite to need them.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> ......
> It genuinely amazes me that no one has picked it up yet.


It helps if before you make statements like this implying that you're smarter than everyone else that you know what you're talking about.

Once Grey Knights are done their training, they're given Terminator Armour. Says so in the 'Dex. They don't go to power armour first.


----------



## MichaelCarmine

Only Thing i don't like on the new Knights is the look of their Psi-Bolter. I'll try this: 
View attachment 11684

If you think about the Psibolter, it has -"nearly"- the same statline of a Ass-Canon with Psibolt-Ammo...
Sorry for the bad conversion, but i only got the Windows standard Programs (and don't realy know how to use it  )


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> It helps if before you make statements like this implying that you're smarter than everyone else that you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Once Grey Knights are done their training, they're given Terminator Armour. Says so in the 'Dex. They don't go to power armour first.


Didn't mean to be condescending, sorry, I woke up early and I'm a bit drowsy.
It just seemed a bit obvious, they're less good, so clearly they're less experienced.

I'm sure it can be worked out once we have the codex in hand.


----------



## Brovius

Katie Drake said:


> It helps if before you make statements like this implying that you're smarter than everyone else that you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Once Grey Knights are done their training, they're given Terminator Armour. Says so in the 'Dex. They don't go to power armour first.


It sounds more like they are given the choice.

GKSS have lower A and Ld because they are more of a shooting squad, and CC support. Kinda like Dreadnoughts. The sort of thing you only charge into a combat if they can win gloriously on their own, or to help another friendly unit in assault.


----------



## Winterous

Brovius said:


> It sounds more like they are given the choice.
> 
> GKSS have lower A and Ld because they are more of a shooting squad, and CC support. Kinda like Dreadnoughts. The sort of thing you only charge into a combat if they can win gloriously on their own, or to help another friendly unit in assault.


Yeah this sounds about right, and it would explain why Terminators only have Hammer Hand, where Strike Squads have Warpquake as well; they've just chosen to specialise in a different field, Psychic mastery rather than simple combat.


----------



## sybarite

had a small read though the codex today and l like it 

l will look at it agien later and look though the Psy powers.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

sybarite said:


> had a small read though the codex today and l like it
> 
> l will look at it again later and look though the Psychic powers.


You did not happen to remember any of the rules eh?


----------



## sybarite

Kalishnikov-47 said:


> You did not happen to remember any of the rules eh?


was look at the psycannon and squads  and they are the same from the leak dex

though you did remind me to see what a heavy psycannon does


----------



## Alessander

3rd party Silver Compass Designs is coming out with a multiple sets of laser-engraved/cut tokens compatible for play with the new Grey Knights. Here's a preview of some of them:

View attachment 11703


(click here for a bigger pic with detail).

SCD has a patent-pending process of laser-engraving a 3D image into the back of a plexiglass token, so you can easily color/paint the engravings yourself to match your army color scheme. The 1" wide tokens are supplied with the engravings unpainted. SCD should have the tokens available on their website later this month.


----------



## Grogbart

I just had a look at the new product list of the Grey Knights on the GW homepage and one thing confused me. What's up with the Preachers?
My first thought: maybe Warrior Acolytes and GW being to lazy to rename them. They did however manage to rename the old "WH Inquisitor with Inferno Pistol" to "GK Inquisitor with Nullrod". So its not quite a convincing idea.


----------



## superwill

Does anyone know if there is a place that has a summary of the differences between the real and leaked codices?

Does anyone know if the Brotherhood Champion's stats are true, i.e. does he really have only one wound?

Also guys, wanna take a chance to say *well done and thankyou* to all those solid contributors to this thread. It's been a long journey, I wish I had something to contribute but kept generally silent and just lurked as I never had any information to share. Again, thankyou for getting us to this point! May the coming months be full of slain demons, aliens and heretics at the hands of your shiny new Grey Knights!


----------



## HatingYou

I havn't seen the new book yet.
shit better be good...to make up for the meh models

are henchmen as stupidly over powered as they are in the leaked one?
plus is the supreme grand masters fluff still the same? cus the shite I read in the leaked one was wtf moment for me.


----------



## genesis80

even without reading the codex, i can tell you it will be a "meh" experience. The models are meh, so why not the codex. 
If you are expecting the power level of SM, IG or Wolves...man...are you in for a deep drop.


----------



## Synack

Thought there would be more info up about the rules since ppl have access to the codex by now.

I'm hoping to get a look myself maybe next week


----------



## coke123

superwill said:


> Does anyone know if there is a place that has a summary of the differences between the real and leaked codices?
> 
> Does anyone know if the Brotherhood Champion's stats are true, i.e. does he really have only one wound?
> 
> Also guys, wanna take a chance to say *well done and thankyou* to all those solid contributors to this thread. It's been a long journey, I wish I had something to contribute but kept generally silent and just lurked as I never had any information to share. Again, thankyou for getting us to this point! May the coming months be full of slain demons, aliens and heretics at the hands of your shiny new Grey Knights!


The Champion's stats are true- but then again half the point to them is that they get to kill something big when they die.

I perchanced to write a list using the dex today as well. Mostly for laughs-

Coteaz

6x9 Jokaero weaponsmiths

1990pts.

One man.
54 monkeys.
A universe of Daemons.

:biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> I perchanced to write a list using the dex today as well. Mostly for laughs-
> 
> Coteaz
> 
> 6x9 Jokaero weaponsmiths
> 
> 1990pts.
> 
> One man.
> 54 monkeys.
> A universe of Daemons.
> 
> :biggrin:








Does um...
Purifier guy, is he not an IC in the codex?


----------



## Irbian

Wait, my english is not always sharp enough so... the brotherhood champion cost half the cost in the leaked codex? :O


In another topic, thnks for the input in the PA vs TA issue


----------



## Winterous

Irbian said:


> Wait, my english is not always sharp enough so... the brotherhood champion cost half the cost in the leaked codex? :O


No no :laugh:
He meant that half their _purpose_ is their kamikaze attack.


----------



## Synack

Irbian said:


> Wait, my english is not always sharp enough so... the brotherhood champion cost half the cost in the leaked codex? :O


He's said it's half the point of the guy, not half the points. I could see how you got it confused if you not english.

To be clear, he's not half the points he was in the leaked dex


----------



## Mathai

Ah the elusive Grey Knight. It goes into hiding for 7 years at a time, and comes out with hesitation. While in hiding, the grumpy troll like people who hunt for them slowly build up their expectancies about its glory. Believing the Grey knight to be perfect once it comes back from hiding.

Alas, no matter how mighty and beautiful it may truly be, it is not about having for these people but the getting. They want their GRey nights to be brokenly powerfull, but at the same time completely weaker to those around them. Lest they be branded that which they cannot help but be. (Space Marines) And it matters not that time and time again, people have judged those that came out of hiding before them to be hideous based solely off of Games Workshop's piss poor photography skills, only to actually get such rarities such as the Stormraven in hand finally and discover that when not held at that one most terrible angle that GW seems to love putting their products at when showcasing them, they actually look pretty damn nice!

And so the cycle of hate shall continue for the poor Grey Knight. But dont feel bad for them, because while the loudest of those that hunt him are also the most impatient. For they cast judgement easilly and before actually having anything other than a mental image. There are many more who hunt the elusive Grey Knight than the ones who expect perfection as they see it and complain when life isnt perfect from the mental image they have of a world tinted green. It is those that wait patiently and who have truly waited these long years, who truly love the game for more than simply having the best army. 

And in the end though, it will not matter which type of Grey knight hunter anyone is. Because while flawed many things which have dome before the Grey Knight, such as the little Blood Angel, may be, They all will still be quite effective at their primary objectives for the hunters. They shall be a heck of alot of fun to play with.




Heh heh, silly way-to-late at night rant aside....I think everyone who is saying they are dissapointed is suffering from elevating their precious Grey Knights to godhood in terms of how awesome they look, and anything made by mere mortal sculpters will be doomed to fall short. The Dreadknight may not be quite ideal for everyone from the pictures, I can accept that, but its a completely new creation and not everything can be the same as you were imagining it. And above that, I refuse to count something out based purely off GW's terrible photography skills after the whole debacle over the Stormraven. That thing is a lovely model from every angle but the one they took thos initial shots of it from. And so far the only complaint I can see about the troops are that the helmets look different than before....

So yeah, I dont see any real problems yet. I'm gonna hold off any negative judgements untill after I have assembled these guys for myself. But I'm willing to bet I wont have any complaints at that time either.


----------



## Dagmire

genesis80 said:


> even without reading the codex, i can tell you it will be a "meh" experience. The models are meh, so why not the codex.
> If you are expecting the power level of SM, IG or Wolves...man...are you in for a deep drop.


Without knowing the future can you give me the winning lotto numbers then?
Seems that your guessing based on an uninformed opinion.


----------



## lordsloth

Mathai said:


> Ah the elusive Grey Knight. It goes into hiding for 7 years at a time, and comes out with hesitation. While in hiding, the grumpy troll like people who hunt for them slowly build up their expectancies about its glory. Believing the Grey knight to be perfect once it comes back from hiding.


I think it's probably due to the fact that they know theyll have to wait another seven years for the next one so they'd like to be ahead of the powercurve for a bit in hopes of being at least competitive down the line.


----------



## Irbian

Ok, got it 

Another issue... I, as probably some of you, have over 10 halberds PA GK. Planning for them?


----------



## alex567

After playing the new retribution and finaly jumping back on this thread and cant being bothered to read the last 100 pages that i have missed, Mathai speaks the most sence i have heard, if you actualy look at the dredknight it is about 5.5 inches high and is a beutiful model for a vndicare to take pot shots at, but the grey knights themselves are probably the most beutifuly sculpted models games workshop has ever done, if you were to sit there for ten minutes looking at the models fully made and painted on your desk you would see that their to die (theorieticaly) for, and grammer nazi's i dont care if i miss spelt anything. So i raise a glass to the designers of these models and i hope you all will to. :drinks:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Blood of Kittens is at it again with rumours, said they will be leaking rules over the next few days.

One thing TastyTaste did say was this :



> So it is that time again! Another black box coming to a store near you. For many though you will be either at work or unable to get down to your local store to see the latest and greatest from GW, so come this Friday (Pacific Standard Time) I plan on bringing the codex to you! This will work pretty much the same way (glorified live blogging) as the Dark Eldar codex release last year.
> 
> By Friday most of the codex will be leaked (as was the case with DE), but this is a good way to answer any lingering questions– as well get the codex in a condense form. So expect a post with pictures, stats, info, and answers any questions people might have about the codex. As well look for a rumor fact check as we see what Blood of Kittens got right and what we got wrong.
> 
> All information will be on a timer! Just like last time all the content in the post will be deleted by the end of the weekend.
> 
> Be aware that depending on Internet connection (iphone vs. labtop) at the time information might come scrambled a bit and not formated so be warned!
> 
> The last wrinkle is the live blogging will start at a random time. The only way you will be notified of the start time is one of three ways. Either by joining the Blood of Kittens Twitter feed, Facebook fan page, or sign up for the Blood of Kittens Network. Network users will be the first to get a heads up as well of some “preferential” treatment.
> 
> Here are the appropriate links for people to join.
> 
> Twitter
> 
> Facebook
> 
> Network Reg (make sure to join the Rumors group)
> 
> No matter what everyone in the end will get the same information– just staggered delivery. Last time Blood of Kittens did this it was a smashing fun time, so I hope everyone again will enjoy it!
> 
> Oh, almost forgot one more thing…
> 
> By the end of the night I will be dropping a rumor bombshell that no one (at least from what I can tell) has leaked about the future of Warhammer 40k.


My response was this :
Future of 40k? Lets take a look at what we “know” so far…
April : GK
May : Tomb Kings
June : DE Second Wave
July : ??? Fantasy or LOTR
August : ? Summer of Fliers perhaps
September : ??? Fantasy or LOTR
October : ? Necrons
November : ??? Fantasy or LOTR
December : Nothing as usual

2012
1st Quarter : Codex Sisters of Battle should be pretty early in the year.
2nd Quarter : Tau should get a new codex after Sisters of Battle
3rd Quarter : 6ed 40,000

This is about as far as I have heard rumours. There was also a rumour about the Tau getting plastic pathfinders and Vespids this autumn but that doesn’t really make sense unless they get a codex update. Then again the insanity of GW knows no bounds 

It was stated about a year ago that C:GK would focus on the GKs and the Inquisition. C:SoB would focus on the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy just like it used to be with the 2ed Sisters of Battle codex.

I’m really curious about what this bombshell could be if it’s nothing of what I said above. They are not discontinuing the Sisters of Battle range so it has to be something else.
It cant be the special rules for Fliers that is said to be a new vehicle type in 6ed.

Since it is something that no one has mentioned before it could be something really interesting 

Looking forwards to reading what it could be.

So if it's not something I've mentioned above what the hell could it be? GASP?! Another SM chapter perhaps?!



Alessander said:


> 3rd party Silver Compass Designs is coming out with a multiple sets of laser-engraved/cut tokens compatible for play with the new Grey Knights. Here's a preview of some of them:


Really interesting, checked out their site and I have to say it is really hard to navigate. They seems to be selling allot of things but there is no way to find their product range. The only products I was able to see were the 3 highlights but if they have been creating stuff since 2001 that can't be all they have created can it?


----------



## coke123

Winterous said:


> Does um...
> Purifier guy, is he not an IC in the codex?


Unfortunately Crowe is not an IC. First thing I checked. Whether this is an oversight or by design, is still to be shown, but considering his fluff, I'm inclined to think the latter.

Although his model is freaking beautiful. I know I have to play a purifier brotherhood now. His awesomeness makes Draigo look like shit.



Irbian said:


> Wait, my english is not always sharp enough so... the brotherhood champion cost half the cost in the leaked codex? :O
> 
> 
> In another topic, thnks for the input in the PA vs TA issue


Yeah, sorry. I meant half the reason you'd take him is to gib the biggest thing with a wounds value in your opponent's army.

I also spied a Jokaero model in the codex; does anyone have any idea when it's being released? Will it be in the second half of the April release, or do we have to wait longer for some banana fueled shenanigans? (I'm really quite tempted to play that list i posted earlier...)

Oh, and on those psychic power counter things- I think they may have jumped the gun on that one. I distinctly remember 'Mind Blades' did not make it into the final book (unless I missed it somewhere). Dreadknights do no have holocaust IIRC, but instead have Dark Excommunication- which prevents Daemonic Gifts (or was it gifts of chaos? can't remember)


----------



## alex567

any one notice it sais titan above the grey knights crotch on the dreadknight?



coke123 said:


> Although his model is freaking beautiful. I know I have to play a purifier brotherhood now. His awesomeness makes Draigo look like shit.


Do you know of any where i can aquire a picture of said crowe model i will i have to wait till april?


----------



## coke123

alex567 said:


> any one notice it sais titan above the grey knights crotch on the dreadknight?


Well, since the knights are based on titan, it's hardly suprising... in fact it's to be expected. Sort of like when people leave their address in their wallet in case they lose it, I guess...


----------



## alex567

coke123 said:


> Well, since the knights are based on titan, it's hardly suprising... in fact it's to be expected. Sort of like when people leave their address in their wallet in case they lose it, I guess...


was supposed to be a pun...


----------



## coke123

alex567 said:


> Do you know of any where i can aquire a picture of said crowe model i will i have to wait till april?


Well, I saw it in my local GWs Black Box codex... so that's your best option. If there is no GW local to you, I guess I'd try whatever FLGS you're using, and failing that (or if you use online stores) a couple of people have pointed him out in the background of a couple of the pictures currently up on GWs website. He's the artificer armour dude in the cape. He's standing around with purifiers (who typically have their helmets an almost white-silver colour).

Actually, that gives me pause- Crowe is clearly shown standing with his purifier homies, but doesn't have IC status. Probably an oversight on the photographer's part, but still perhaps there's hope for an FAQ to declare him IC?



alex567 said:


> was supposed to be a pun...


I don't get it... unless you're talking about the blatantly crude penis joke... in which case lol. Nice one.


----------



## Synack

coke123 said:


> I don't get it... unless you're talking about the blatantly crude penis joke... in which case lol. Nice one.


He was... Titan... crotch...


----------



## alex567

coke123 said:


> Actually, that gives me pause- Crowe is clearly shown standing with his purifier homies, but doesn't have IC status. Probably an oversight on the photographer's part, but still perhaps there's hope for an FAQ to declare him IC?


Oh right thats him, i thought that was some ubber awsome model for something else like thawn or something but yeah he is awsome, for people who dont know he's the one in the image with the two storm ravens, two dredknight, land raider, there is a rhino, 10 terminators, 5 paladins, draigo, 5 of the teleporter grey knights, 5 purifieres, hes the guy at the front of the purifiers in that image. Its the image katie posted a few hundred pages back that is on the games workshop website. Am i aloud to show a link of it? cause if i am i will, im a bit sketchy of the rules at the moment.


----------



## Irbian

Ok, question, there are photos in the codex for the miniatures we still dont know?


----------



## Brovius

Synack said:


> He was... Titan... crotch...


Nemesis Pork Sword


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

Anyone who has already read the 'dex can make a summary of what rules changed compared to the beta version?
It would be really appreciated a summary about the wargear rules too.
Thanks


----------



## timsmith

I know the dreadknight only has a 5++..... sad times!


----------



## Akhara'Keth

timsmith said:


> I know the dreadknight only has a 5++..... sad times!


That wouldn't make any sense, regarding the fluff. I mean, it is supposed to be used where Terminators are not enough so why would the armour save and invul save be exactly like the saves from a terminator?


----------



## Logyn

timsmith said:


> I know the dreadknight only has a 5++..... sad times!


2+/4++ S7 T7 4W would have made it hands down the most stupidly broken MC in the game. Dropping it to S6 T6 and making it only 5++ was a good choice. Look at other MC's, especially Tyranids. I mean, the Swarmlord has a 4++ only in CC, and he costs 280 points! This thing is what, 130 base?

As of now, the dreadknight is scary, but still vulnerable to the stuff that kills other MC's. He's still a force to be reckoned with, and he has some nice cannons. It's gonna be a fun model to plunk down, and my trygons are gonna HATE it.


----------



## alex567

Logyn said:


> I mean, the Swarmlord has a 4++ only in CC, and he costs 280 points! This thing is what, 130 base?


yeah but look at what the swarmlord can do for 150pts more i think the storm lord is alot better, for instnace he is a hq for starters meaning that you dont have to take anything else but for grey knights the dreadknight is 130pts + the points for a hq which is roughly 150pts if you want a decent hq so thats 280pts for roughly the same awsome so it equals out, and the dredknight is taking up two slots if you want a hq aswell.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Irbian said:


> Ok, got it
> 
> Another issue... I, as probably some of you, have over 10 halberds PA GK. Planning for them?


yep they will be undergoing some arm removal :grin:


----------



## Logyn

alex567 said:


> yeah but look at what the swarmlord can do for 150pts more...


You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the DreadKnight = Swarmlord. I am pointing out that good invulnerable saves on MC's don't really exist, and the ones that do are VERY expensive. The leaked dex had a DK with talos stats and a 2+/4++ for base 130 points, which is nuts. The new statline is much more reasonable, and still really good without making every other MC in the game feel small in the pants.


----------



## asianavatar

> I, as probably some of you, have over 10 halberds PA GK. Planning for them?


I have about 35 of them. I haven't decided if I will just pay the points for halberds (+2I is pretty good after all) or the other option is to leave them as be, call them force swords and remodel anyone who has a force halberd as having an axe like blade instead.


----------



## soulreaver296

Of course, I've models several of my GKs with wacky things like axes, flails, maces, and hammers. It's gonna be a nightmare if i go with mixed units


----------



## Irbian

Yeah, the +2I is cool but... against what? There are so many possibilities that Im overhelmed

What about :
Swords for normal GKSS - cheap, with some psycannons, babysitting
Falchions for purifiers - vs horde
Hammers for teleporters - move quick, hit hard vs MC
Halberds for teleporters - move quick, hit quicker vs Elite


----------



## MadCowCrazy

GK unboxing by the guys over at Beasts of War


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

MadCowCrazy said:


> GK unboxing by the guys over at Beasts of War
> YouTube - New Grey Knights Unboxed | Warhammer 40K


I will unbox my gk,I don't like seeing others while they "enjoy". I wanna enjoy by myself.
I'd rather prefer to know what changes where brought to the beta version.
PLIIIIIZ :cray:

Anyone knows psyk-out grenades rules?


----------



## boreas

Woah... I hadn't caught that if the Ld test was passed, all the unit's wounds caused ID. That's nasty! Ork Nobz will cry 

Interesting video, although I'd expected the guy to do a bit of research before filming so he wouldn't always go "this thingy" and "possibly a gizmo" etc...

I can also read that the NDK w/ hammer strikes st St10 in normal Ini... So with a teleporter he can move 30" on first turn and go play "whack-a-mole" on a nice enemy unit (like a tank squadron or Tau Battlesuit squadron)?

Phil


----------



## bhsman

Ooga-booga.


----------



## Brother Siegfrid

bhsman said:


> Ooga-booga.


that's King Louie!! :laugh:


----------



## oiad

Must have seen quite a few different Jokaero wannabes over the last day. At this rate, GW won't need to release a model.



boreas said:


> Woah... I hadn't caught that if the Ld test was passed, all the unit's wounds caused ID. That's nasty! Ork Nobz will cry
> 
> Interesting video, although I'd expected the guy to do a bit of research before filming so he wouldn't always go "this thingy" and "possibly a gizmo" etc...
> 
> Phil


Haha, good. It's been a long time coming but they needed to be knocked of their speedy high-horse, err bikes. Can't wait to line up those falchions and lay the smackdown on some greenskins...



Brovius said:


> It sounds more like they are given the choice.
> GKSS have lower A and Ld because they are more of a shooting squad, and CC support. Kinda like Dreadnoughts. The sort of thing you only charge into a combat if they can win gloriously on their own, or to help another friendly unit in assault.


Hmm, I don't quite buy it. It's not like Vanguard have better profile stats over Sternguard. Let's just bring this one down to general GW inconsistency and the need to keep PAGKs cheap.

:grin:


----------



## Lesiu

From the Beasts of War video:

GKs pass a single test for all their force weapons, if it's sucessfull all wounds caused by them cause instant death.

Daemonbane: Any daemon or psyker that suffers an unsaved wound from Nemesis Force Weapon must take a Ld test at the end of Assault Phase, if the test is failed, the model is removed as casualty. :shok:

And Nemesis Daemon Hammer is really a thunderhammer with those 2 rules. So yes, str 8 force weapon possible on every squad!


----------



## aboytervigon

where did that picture come from?


----------



## bhsman

Warseer, who said it was from an Italian forum I believe.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

boreas said:


> I can also read that the NDK w/ hammer strikes st St10 in normal Ini... So with a teleporter he can move 30" on first turn and go play "whack-a-mole" on a nice enemy unit (like a tank squadron or Tau Battlesuit squadron)?
> 
> Phil


Nope, they will have to stand there for one round looking like an idiot as they get shot to pieces. You can move 30" once per game but you can only run or shoot after doing so.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You guys might want to check out this link for Crowe and Jokaero from the GK codex.

http://thewraithgate.blogspot.com/2011/03/grey-knights-crowe-and-jokaero.html


----------



## alex567

the guy in that video was like " i am a space wolf player, but these grey knights there... nice enough" you could feel the jelousy emmiting from that sentance as the space wolves were outdone by the grey knights


----------



## GrizBe

Sorry Dragio, i'm soo buying Crowe instead of you.


----------



## Vhalyar

Redemptionsword.
Redemptionsword erry day.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Wow, Crowe looks really awesome, but the monkey is still the best. I can already see a running joke comming. Seriously, why the hell did Mat put a MONKEY (!!!!) in the Codex? He must have been stoned or something..


----------



## alex567

I think someone must have made a model and wanted tog et it mass produced so he said what better way to incorperate it into 40k then to have it next to the second most anti alien orgenisation in the entire 40k universe, and it also looks slightly daemonic.


----------



## godzy

any word on servo skulls?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From Dakka, made me laugh so hard!



BrassScorpion said:


> I'm not sure I am going to be able to shoot and kill these things. Aren't they endangered?
> 
> 
> 
> You definitely don't want to find out what this new Imperial simian ally's close range weapon is, not at all.
Click to expand...


----------



## Doelago

Out of pure interest, what is this "close range weapon"?


----------



## Katie Drake

godzy said:


> any word on servo skulls?


Yes, they're silly and hilarious.

Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.

Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.

Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.

Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.

A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Vhalyar said:


> Redemptionsword.
> Redemptionsword erry day.


Yeah I don't like that they used a lot of English words in the engravings. I've seen Death, Inferno, Hope, Doom, Faith, Unholy, Warrior, Champion, etc. 

What was wrong with the faux latin? Sounds much cooler.


----------



## Doelago

Katie Drake said:


> Yes, they're silly and hilarious.
> 
> Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
> 
> Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
> 
> Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
> 
> Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
> 
> A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.


How many points!!!? I want 10 of them. Keeping them 6" away should not be the biggest of problems, and if they cannot be shot, I am pretty confident of their survival.


----------



## Synack

Nice, if I have points free, maybe get one, to reserve a spot for my vindicare, but I can't see me buying them as a NEED


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.

hmm. so anyone unit can move it out from play....So after 1 turn it will be probably usless am i right? But in first turn they can make some good things or I'm just saying stupid things


----------



## Katie Drake

Doelago said:


> How many points!!!? I want 10 of them. Keeping them 6" away should not be the biggest of problems, and if they cannot be shot, I am pretty confident of their survival.


Well, they can't move. They're just markers.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Katie Drake said:


> Yes, they're silly and hilarious.
> 
> Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
> 
> Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
> 
> Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
> 
> Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
> 
> A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.


Can you still move the skulls? And I'm assuming they've learned from the Tyranid Sporemines in 4E and they don't count for kill points?

And I'm not sure if it's been answered, but do the Intercepter Squads still move like Jump Infantry or do they only have the 30" shunt once per game? Can the Dreadknight still take the teleporter upgrade?


----------



## Doelago

Katie Drake said:


> Well, they can't move. They're just markers.












Ok, might as well then just stop the infiltration and scouting fuckers from making any use of their special rule and blast everything that gets close to those flying heads. :crazy:


----------



## Katie Drake

RedemptionNL said:


> Can you still move the skulls? And I'm assuming they've learned from the Tyranid Sporemines in 4E and they don't count for kill points?


Answered this already and no, they're just markers, they don't count for anything.



> And I'm not sure if it's been answered, but do the Intercepter Squads still move like Jump Infantry or do they only have the 30" shunt once per game? Can the Dreadknight still take the teleporter upgrade?


They're jump infantry that can Shunt and yes, the Dreadknight can.


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

And that's good, but qestionis how many points do they cost. I think they will be usefull to control the deployment and better control on the battlefield in early part of the game. In one word quite nice stuff


----------



## RedemptionNL

Katie Drake said:


> Answered this already and no, they're just markers, they don't count for anything.


Ah, yes, saw it just after I finished posting, doh. 



> They're jump infantry that can Shunt and yes, the Dreadknight can.


Ah, phew, as the GW articles only mentioned the shunt, I was afraid that was their only gimmick.

Thanks for answering!

PS. Psycannons are only 24" range now? Sad panda.


----------



## Synack

RedemptionNL said:


> PS. Psycannons are only 24" range now? Sad panda.


They are NOT. It's the psybolter that is 24".


----------



## godzy

thank for the quick replay katie!
now what about psiflame ammo (+1S?), true silver and warp field stabilizer?


----------



## Synack

godzy said:


> thank for the quick replay katie!
> now what about psiflame ammo (+1S?), true silver and warp field stabilizer?


True silver damages Daemons assaulting vehicles

Warp Field Stab allows the Librarian to summon vehicles with the summing psychic power.


----------



## Lesiu

Katie could you tell me few things about psychic powers?

Is hammerhand S bonus applied before other modifiers (S10 hammers?)?
Did they change anything in quicksilver, might of the titan and shrouding powers? (same effects, still 6" range?)
Did sanctuary made it to the final version?


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> They are NOT. It's the psybolter that is 24".


Actually, they are.

Psycannon stats (confirmed): Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending.



godzy said:


> thank for the quick replay katie!
> now what about psiflame ammo (+1S?), true silver and warp field stabilizer?


Psyflame ammunition adds +1S to the strength of flame-type weapons, so flamers and so on. I haven't checked the others yet, I'll get back to you when I do.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Synack said:


> They are NOT. It's the psybolter that is 24".


And what exactly would a Psybolter be? Do you mean the Psilencers, or just anything that takes Psy-bolt ammunition?


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Katie Drake said:


> A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.


ROFL xD *Placing the skull on a 7" high building*


----------



## Synack

Well that blows big donkey dick


----------



## alex567

i think it would be best if some one compiled this information together, ill start a list and update it with information, and will post collected information in some form or another


----------



## Katie Drake

alex567 said:


> i think it would be best if some one compiled this information together, ill start a list and update it with information, and will post collected information in some form or another


It'll be done in the first post of this thread I imagine. MadCow is pretty good about it.


----------



## Doelago

Akhara'Keth said:


> ROFL xD *Placing the skull on a 7" high building*


HAH! Guess how high all the terrain on my gameboard will be from now on!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Doelago said:


> Out of pure interest, what is this "close range weapon"?


----------



## alex567

could someone tell me what the following weapons do?
Nemesis force halbeard, Nemesis daemon hammer, Pair of Nemesis falchions, Nemesis warding stave, Incinerator, Psilencer.


----------



## Doelago

MadCowCrazy said:


>


Seriously? :laugh:

*Enemies of the Imperium fear us, we throw crap at our enemies.*


----------



## Katie Drake

alex567 said:


> could someone tell me what the following weapons do?
> Nemesis force halbeard, Nemesis daemon hammer, Pair of Nemesis falchions, Nemesis warding stave, Incinerator, Psilencer.


Nemesis Force Halberd - +2 Initiative, Force Weapon.

Nemesis Daemonhammer - As Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon. EDIT: Forgot, also has Daemonbane, I think.

Nemesis Falchions - +1 Attack, Force Weapon.

Nemesis Warding Stave - 2+ Invulnerable in close combat, force weapon.

Incinerator - Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer - Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be less.


----------



## alex567

Doelago said:


> Seriously? :laugh:
> 
> *Enemies of the Imperium fear us, we throw crap at our enemies.*


Not only will your enemies feel like crap after you beat them with the grey knights now they can look like it to 


Katie Drake said:


> Nemesis Force Halberd - +2 Initiative, Force Weapon.
> 
> Nemesis Daemonhammer - As Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon.
> 
> Nemesis Falchions - +1 Attack, Force Weapon.
> 
> Nemesis Warding Stave - 2+ Invulnerable in close combat, force weapon.
> 
> Incinerator - Range Template S6 AP4 Assault 1
> 
> Psilencer - Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be less.


thanks for that. :grin:


----------



## oiad

So Nemesis Falchions no longer re-roll failed rolls-to-wound?


----------



## Lesiu

Katie Drake said:


> Nemesis Daemonhammer - As Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon. EDIT: Forgot, also has Daemonbane, I think.


All Nemesis weapons have Daemonbane, I worte the rule 2 pages ago, you can see it on the beasts of war video.

People assumed falchions works like lightning claws, but I don't rember anyone saying they actually allow you to reroll to wound rolls


----------



## Doelago

alex567 said:


> Not only will your enemies feel like crap after you beat them with the grey knights now they can look like it to


:laugh: Great!


----------



## alex567

so what does daemonbane do? i wish not to navigate previous pages to search for it, so please could someone re-post it here?


----------



## RedemptionNL

alex567 said:


> so what does daemonbane do? i wish not to navigate previous pages to search for it, so please could someone re-post it here?


Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.


----------



## MichaelCarmine

I think i read, that it negates the Eternal Warrior rule for Deamons and Psykers.


----------



## alex567

RedemptionNL said:


> Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.


thanks mate :biggrin:


----------



## Keecai

has there been any word on the inquisition elements, henchmen and such, did they turn out as expected?


----------



## oiad

Lesiu said:


> All Nemesis weapons have Daemonbane, I worte the rule 2 pages ago, you can see it on the beasts of war video.
> 
> People assumed falchions works like lightning claws, but I don't rember anyone saying they actually allow you to reroll to wound rolls


People assuming isn't exactly the phrase to use. It was part of a set of initial rumours (from BoLS?) to reveal the weapon upgrades. But then many of the weapon upgrades have changed since then. Most for the better though...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Keecai said:


> has there been any word on the inquisition elements, henchmen and such, did they turn out as expected?


I HOPE they took them out and burned them together with Matt Ward in a blood sacrifice for Khorne


----------



## alex567

Akhara'Keth said:


> I HOPE they took them out and burned them together with Matt Ward in a blood sacrifice for Khorne


lol, not to harsh then. :laugh:


----------



## Keecai

Akhara'Keth said:


> I HOPE they took them out and burned them together with Matt Ward in a blood sacrifice for Khorne


not a fan then i take it!


----------



## Akhara'Keth

alex567 said:


> lol, not to harsh then. :laugh:


I really can't stand them. You can basically play a Grey Knight army without a single grey knight in it. When they call it Codex: Grey Knights, there shouldn't be any other models in it. If they would have called it Codex: Daemonhunters again, the henchmen would have been fine. 

btw: There actually no new Codex: Daemonhunters. Does it mean that We can still use the codex officially?


----------



## alex567

Akhara'Keth said:


> I really can't stand them. You can basically play a Grey Knight army without a single grey knight in it. When they call it Codex: Grey Knights, there shouldn't be any other models in it. If they would have called it Codex: Daemonhunters again, the henchmen would have been fine.
> 
> btw: There actually no new Codex: Daemonhunters. Does it mean that We can still use the codex officially?


I would guess if you had your opponents permision then yes, like the same with most things if you ask your oponent beforehand and set up the game and its rules no one can stop you playing anything aslong as it doesnt cut into the game time to much, so you could use forth ed. rules if you wanted to if you had the book on you. If you go to a local hobby centre then just ask the staff member if he has any problems with it, if he sais no then fine continue with this historic book of legends and daemons.


----------



## Catpain Rich

Akhara'Keth said:


> I really can't stand them. You can basically play a Grey Knight army without a single grey knight in it. When they call it Codex: Grey Knights, there shouldn't be any other models in it. If they would have called it Codex: Daemonhunters again, the henchmen would have been fine.
> 
> btw: There actually no new Codex: Daemonhunters. Does it mean that We can still use the codex officially?


btw: I'm guessing not since they're not on the website anymore


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Catpain Rich said:


> btw: I'm guessing not since they're not on the website anymore


Problem solved^^ :victory:


----------



## Mathai

Well the way I've been thinking it is that unless they say the new codex nullifies the old, which I suspect it will somewhere in the fine print, then there is enough grounds to make an argument that you can use the old one still untill a FAQ corrects it.

But either way, since the new Codex is named after the Space Marine aspect of the old codex then I'd think you can still cross over some aspects of the Witch Hunters codex as they say that you can do so with any of the Space Marine codexes, included specific chapters. Like Grey Knights! =)


----------



## hungryugolino

Dreadknight had potential. The base model is shit, however. It's horrible beyond words, and I'd be embarrassed to play with the damn thing, and embarrassed for whichever person shelled out for it and fields it as-is.

As for the rest: storm bolter ammo is meh, but easily fixed with bits of sprue. Power Armour knights should have kept the old style arms, love the new helmets. Terminators are alright. Not great, but alright. Nothing a few conversions won't fix.

It's the Inquisition and fluff side of things that really got shafted.


----------



## Katie Drake

Mathai said:


> Well the way I've been thinking it is that unless they say the new codex nullifies the old, which I suspect it will somewhere in the fine print, then there is enough grounds to make an argument that you can use the old one still untill a FAQ corrects it.


Okay, no, here's how it works.

At tournaments, no organizer in their right mind is going to allow the Daemonhunters Codex for any length of time after Codex: Grey Knights comes out.

In friendlies, there is no overall "official". It all comes down entirely to what people want to play with and against and what people agree on. GW won't bother ruling anything - it's enough that they've pulled Codex: Daemonhunters off of shelves and taken down the FAQ. It gives anyone with sense a strong indication that GW isn't supporting the Daemonhunters anymore (at least in the same form), but it doesn't mean that people have to stop playing with the Daemonhunter Codex if they don't want to.


----------



## boreas

I'm pretty sure that a more dynamic pose will help the DK tremendously. It will involve cutting the legs bits, but anyone who's built Tau Battlesuits knows how to do that  Apart from that, I rather like it. The curvy plates remind me of a cross between the SM power armor (which has no angles whatsoever) and the mars-pattern titans (which also have curvy protection plates.

The harness also has to go, I think... Too "baby Bjorn" 

Katie, just to confirm: an assault unit of 6 GKT w/5 halberds and a Brotherhood banner would attack 20 times at Ini 6, all wounds insta-killing (auto-pass Force Weapon test)?

Phil


----------



## Irbian

Sorry if asked already:
- final FA choices: Stormraven and GK teleporter?
- Dreadnought: Psycannon?
- GK fundation: Its the geneseed from the emperor itself?
- There are miniatures that we havent saw already?


----------



## RedemptionNL

Irbian said:


> Sorry if asked already:
> - final FA choices: Stormraven and GK teleporter?


Yes


> - Dreadnought: Psycannon?


Sort of, an Assault Cannon with Psybolt ammunition has exactly the same stats as a Psycannon, so easy counts as.


----------



## Katie Drake

RedemptionNL said:


> Yes
> 
> Sort of, an Assault Cannon with Psybolt ammunition has exactly the same stats as a Psycannon, so easy counts as.


... I'm shocked and appalled that I didn't think of this. Good eye, sir.


----------



## Champion Alaric

:shok::shok::shok:


Mathai said:


> Well the way I've been thinking it is that unless they say the new codex nullifies the old, which I suspect it will somewhere in the fine print, then there is enough grounds to make an argument that you can use the old one still untill a FAQ corrects it.
> 
> But either way, since the new Codex is named after the Space Marine aspect of the old codex then I'd think you can still cross over some aspects of the Witch Hunters codex as they say that you can do so with any of the Space Marine codexes, included specific chapters. Like Grey Knights! =)


:shok::shok::shok: please say I can still ally. pls pls pls. the only way i can see a guy shut it down is if he says it doesnt say specifically grey knights can..ugh arguments will prolly arise.


----------



## godzy

boreas said:


> Katie, just to confirm: an assault unit of 6 GKT w/5 halberds and a Brotherhood banner would attack 20 times at Ini 6, all wounds insta-killing (auto-pass Force Weapon test)?
> 
> Phil


No. the force weapon entry in the BGB page 50 states that:" The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any *one *opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn."

one opponent per use. no refunds. :victory:


----------



## boreas

I know, but the paragraph briefly seen about NFW and "brotherhood" of psykers in the unpacking video (around 6:28 IIRC) seems to contradict this... Hence my question 

Phil


----------



## Katie Drake

boreas said:


> I know, but the paragraph briefly seen about NFW and "brotherhood" of psykers in the unpacking video (around 6:28 IIRC) seems to contradict this... Hence my question
> 
> Phil


Basically, Brotherhood of Psykers makes the unit count as a single psychic entity for the purposes of force weapons. So one wound that the unit causes can cause Instant Death following the force weapon rules.


----------



## sybarite

look though the new codex today hope all this helps.

Hammer head 1+ S to the unit

Dark excommotion they ignore all demonic gifts

Might of the titan same as hammer but add an extra D6 armour pen

Quick sliver makes there I 10

Sanctuary difficult and dangerous terrain for any unit that assault you

Shrouding they gain stealth and a 6+ cover save in the open

Summoning move any non-vehicles unit that's not in combat to be within 6 of the caster the move using deep strike ruels 

has for the weapons on the big boy 

Heavy psycannon is range 24 S7 AP 4 Large blast rending
Great sword lets you re roll all Miss, wounds and armour pen
daemon hammer same as Gary knights but he keeps his I 4
Heavy immolator can place the flame template anywhere within 12 

l know that some of this stuff has been posted before.


----------



## soulreaver296

... except for the part where it plainly states "ALL wounds caused by the units NFWs cause instant death"


----------



## Necrosis

sybarite said:


> Heavy immolator can place the flame template anywhere within 12


A heavy immolator? Where did this come from? More info please.


----------



## soulreaver296

I think he means heavy incinerator. He was talking about the NDKs weapons, and that is one of them.


----------



## sybarite

thank you.
yes you are right l mean incinerator.


----------



## Necrosis

is it s5 ap 4?


----------



## Katie Drake

soulreaver296 said:


> ... except for the part where it plainly states "ALL wounds caused by the units NFWs cause instant death"


If that's indeed the case, I concede the point. I've been in touch all day with someone with the Codex though and he's rather vehemently opposing that this is the case... hm. Let's hope this isn't the sort of thing that needs an errata.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Posting the compilation I have been working on, the more info that comes out the more I will add to it. The ones in blue I dont know the answer to yet. If there is anything you think is missing just let me know and I will add it.

GK Compilation
HQ
Castellan Crowe
Is NOT an Independent Character

Elite
Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
NO, so those forge world psycannons are now worthless.

Do you need to field an Inquisitor to be able to field an Assassin? Can you field more than 1 Assassin?
No you do not need to field an Inquisitor and yes you can field more than 1 but just not of the same type.

Fast Attack
Is the Stormraven the only Fast Attack?
No, there are Interceptor squads.

Wargear
Grenades
Psyk-out Grenades
Daemons and Psykers either -1I or strike at I1

Rad Grenades
-1 Toughness

Blind Grenades
Defensive Grenades

Psychotroke Grenades
On the round that the model with the grenades assaults or is assaulted roll on some funky table:
1 - Nothing
2 - Enemies get only 1 Attack and are hit automatically.
3 - Re-roll misses in close combat.
4 - Enemy is at I1.
5 - Reduce Ld to 2.
6 - Each model in the unit makes an I test. If it fails, it attacks its own unit that round. Hmm, so for every ork mob you have to spend 2 hours rolling initiative tests for all the models in the unit?


Ranged Weapons
Incinerator
Template, S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer
Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on 4+ unless it'd normally be better.

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

Hellrifle

Close Combat
All Nemesis Weapons have Daemonbane
Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.

Nemesis Force Sword
Force Weapon

Nemesis Force Haldberd
+2Initiative, Force Weapon

Pair of Nemesis Falchions
+1 Attack, Force Weapon

Nemesis Warding Stave
2+ Invulnerable in Close Combat, Force Weapon

Nemesis Daemonhammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon

Daemonhammer
Daemonblade
Null Rod

Ammunition
Psybolt Ammunition
+1S to Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, Autocannons
Psyflame Ammunition
+1S to all template weapons

Other
Orbital Strike Relay
Can fire an orbital bombardment with one of the following profiles:
S6 AP4 Heavy 3 Large Blast Ordnance
S10 AP1 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Entire template counts as the center hole.
S6 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Causes immediate Perils of the Warp on psykers hit.

Empyrean Brain Mines

Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.

Vehicle Weapons
Heavy Incinerator
S6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Flamer*
*Fires like a Hellhound: up to 12 inches away.

Gatling Psilencer
Gattling Psilencer - Range 24" S5 AP- Heavy 12 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be better

Heavy Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Rending

Vehicle Upgrades
Warp Stabilisation Field
Truesilver armour


----------



## sybarite

Necrosis said:


> is it s5 ap 4?


it is S6 AP4

Edit: dam ninja'd by MCC


----------



## Resv

Katie Drake said:


> If that's indeed the case, I concede the point. I've been in touch all day with someone with the Codex though and he's rather vehemently opposing that this is the case... hm. Let's hope this isn't the sort of thing that needs an errata.







At 6:27 you can get a good look at this rule.

Quote:
"All Nemesis weapons are Force Weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook. Note that a unit of Gray Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic Test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis Force Weapons that phase cause instant death..."

Pretty cut and dry, I don't think there will really need to be an errata.


----------



## Headrush

soulreaver296 said:


> ... except for the part where it plainly states "ALL wounds caused by the units NFWs cause instant death"


I saw this on the video as well. 

But if the unit counts as a single psyker under the Brotherhood of Psykers rule then I think all wounds by the units NFW will cause one instant death (your choice I guess)...since the unit counts as a single psyker. 

Is that how this should be read?

Or: As I read it again, it could mean that only one psychic test is needed but it activates "ALL" the Force Weapons that have caused a wound and thus it is in fact that all wounds cause ID.


----------



## Katie Drake

Resv said:


> YouTube - New Grey Knights Unboxed | Warhammer 40K
> 
> At 6:27 you can get a good look at this rule. It does indeed say all attacks made with Nemesis Force Weapons by that unit count as Force Weapon attacks.


Oh, fair enough. I don't watch the Beasts of Bore usually, hence missing it. I guess I'll have to rough up my friend with the 'Dex and inform him that he needs to learn to read.


----------



## superwill

MadCowCrazy said:


> Posting the compilation I have been working on, the more info that comes out the more I will add to it. The ones in blue I dont know the answer to yet. If there is anything you think is missing just let me know and I will add it.
> 
> ...


Awesome work man. Do we have info on the interceptor squad yet? Do we presume their points/options are just the same as if we take the GKSS from the leaked codex and pay for teleporters? Would make sense if they were cheaper seeing as they're not scoring.


----------



## jimbo1701

Can confirm the following from the book:

Psybolt and psyflame add +1 to strength of all weapons that can use them.

Dreadnought pics in the book show the GW vendread and a FW one with TL HBs and DCCW, not the imperial armour dreadnought weapons 

Needle pistol, S3, wounds on 2+, AP2

Inferno pistol, same as BA infernus pistols.

Condemnor boltgun, 24", S5, assault 1, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp (it's the stake crossbow thing)

One of the fluff entries is call 'a black day on Birmingham', continuing the in-joke.

More on the fall of Ka-Banhda, presumably linking in with the BA dex

One of the grenade types (came before frag) requires an initiative test from all models in BtB. If failed, I think it said they can't do anything for the rest of the assault phase. (empyrean brain mines?)


----------



## soulreaver296

The big things missing are the hellrifle and daemonblade (both malleus inquisitor options). Anything on those?


----------



## Katie Drake

soulreaver296 said:


> The big things missing are the hellrifle and daemonblade (both malleus inquisitor options). Anything on those?


The Daemonblade has some good rules where you roll twice on a table and gain two abilities from it. There are a few possibilities, the ones I heard of were wounding Daemons on a 2+, gaining Rage, getting Feel No Pain and I think the ability to use the Daemonblade as a force weapon. I'm going off of memory though.


----------



## godzy

oh neat thingie in that video. this isn't the usual use of force weapons that I referenced to- so yes. all insta-kill


----------



## jimbo1701

superwill said:


> Awesome work man. Do we have info on the interceptor squad yet? Do we presume their points/options are just the same as if we take the GKSS from the leaked codex and pay for teleporters? Would make sense if they were cheaper seeing as they're not scoring.


I have more or less the same question:

Is the interceptor squad now cheaper as not scoring?
Is the strike squad now cheaper for upgrades as not so versatile?

Also worth noting that todays GW article (unless they're wrong of course) refers to purifiers being able to take 2 special weapons per squad, not per 5 squad members, which seems to make them a little bit more toned down.


----------



## sybarite

Katie Drake said:


> The Daemonblade has some good rules where you roll twice on a table and gain two abilities from it. There are a few possibilities, the ones I heard of were wounding Daemons on a 2+, gaining Rage, getting Feel No Pain and I think the ability to use the Daemonblade as a force weapon. I'm going off of memory though.


yes you are right but l think its now 2d6 and you gain one abilitie next time l get to look at the book l will check.


----------



## Rivan

jimbo1701 said:


> I have more or less the same question:
> 
> Is the interceptor squad now cheaper as not scoring?
> Is the strike squad now cheaper for upgrades as not so versatile?
> 
> Also worth noting that todays GW article (unless they're wrong of course) refers to purifiers being able to take 2 special weapons per squad, not per 5 squad members, which seems to make them a little bit more toned down.


I just read the codex today (some of it anyway). It still says that for every 5 purifiers, 2 models can...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

This is my compilation so far from scouring the net, still a few things missing like Daemonhammer and Hellrifle (old Hellrifle sucked balls if I remember correctly, S3 AP- or some such.

GK Compilation
HQ
Castellan Crowe
Is NOT an Independent Character

Elite
Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
NO, so those forge world psycannons are now worthless.

Do you need to field an Inquisitor to be able to field an Assassin? Can you field more than 1 Assassin?
No you do not need to field an Inquisitor and yes you can field more than 1 but just not of the same type.

Fast Attack
Is the Stormraven the only Fast Attack?
No, there are Interceptor squads.

Wargear
Grenades
Psyk-out Grenades
Daemons and Psykers either -1I or strike at I1

Rad Grenades
-1 Toughness

Blind Grenades
Defensive Grenades

Psychotroke Grenades
On the round that the model with the grenades assaults or is assaulted roll on some funky table:
1 - Nothing
2 - Enemies get only 1 Attack and are hit automatically.
3 - Re-roll misses in close combat.
4 - Enemy is at I1.
5 - Reduce Ld to 2.
6 - Each model in the unit makes an I test. If it fails, it attacks its own unit that round.


Ranged Weapons
Incinerator
Template, S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer
Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on 4+ unless it'd normally be better.

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

Needle pistol
S3 wounds on 2+, AP2

Hellrifle

Condemnor Boltgun
24" S5 Assault 1, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp (it's the stake crossbow thing)

Close Combat
All Nemesis Weapons have Daemonbane
Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.

Nemesis Force Sword
Force Weapon

Nemesis Force Haldberd
+2Initiative, Force Weapon

Pair of Nemesis Falchions
+1 Attack, Force Weapon

Nemesis Warding Stave
2+ Invulnerable in Close Combat, Force Weapon

Nemesis Daemonhammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon

Scythian Venom Talon
+2 poison

Daemonhammer

Daemonblade
The Daemonblade has some good rules where you roll twice on a table and gain two abilities from it. There are a few possibilities, the ones I heard of were wounding Daemons on a 2+, gaining Rage, getting Feel No Pain and I think the ability to use the Daemonblade as a force weapon. I'm going off of memory though.

Null Rod

Ammunition
Psybolt Ammunition
+1S to Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, Autocannons
Psyflame Ammunition
+1S to all template weapons

Other
Orbital Strike Relay
Can fire an orbital bombardment with one of the following profiles:
S6 AP4 Heavy 3 Large Blast Ordnance
S10 AP1 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Entire template counts as the center hole.
S6 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Causes immediate Perils of the Warp on psykers hit.

Empyrean Brain Mines
One target in CC doesn't not participate in combat (coma)

Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.

Psyocculum
Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker or squad with psyker


Ulumeatni Plasma Syphonplasma
Attacks at unit within 12 use bs 1

Vehicle Weapons
Ranged
Heavy Incinerator
S6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Flamer*
*Fires like a Hellhound: up to 12 inches away.

Gatling Psilencer
Gattling Psilencer - Range 24" S5 AP- Heavy 12 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be better

Heavy Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Rending

Close Combat
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon, strike at Initiative order

Nemesis Greatsword
Reroll 1 miss, wound and armour pen

Nemesis Doomfist
DCCW, Force Weapon

Vehicle Upgrades
Warp Stabilisation Field
Truesilver armour

Psykic Powers
Librarian
Smite
Same as in C:SM

Quicksilver
Unit strikes at I10

The Shrouding
Unit gains Stealth

Mind Blades
Target model receives -1 Toughness

Sanctuary
Units trying to assault treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous

Warp Rift
Template, Assault 1, take Initiative test, failed take a wound with no save. Vehicles take 1penetrating hit.

Might of Titan
+1S and +1D6 for vehicle pen

The Summoning
Same as C:SM

Vortex of Doom
12" S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Blast

Grey Knights
Hammerhand
+1S in CC, applied before other modifiers so powerfists would be S10

Heroic Sacrifice
When killed make 1 CC attack, if it hits target is also removed from play.

Psychic Communion
+1 or -1 ti reserve rolls

Astral Aim
Can shoot units not in Line of Sight but they get 4+ cover save

Cleansing Flame
Enemy units locked in same combat takes a wound on 4+ with armour saves allowed

Holocaust
12" S5 AP-, Assault 1, Large Blast

Warp Quake
Deep Strike wargear that reduce scatter dont work within 12", if enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" they get Deep Strike mishap

Vehicles
Fortitude
Negates Shaken and Stunned results


----------



## Rivan

MadCowCrazy said:


> Wargear
> Grenades
> Psyk-out Grenades
> Daemons and Psykers either -1I or strike at I1
> 
> Nemesis Force Sword
> Force Weapon
> 
> Null Rod
> 
> Vehicle Upgrades
> Warp Stabilisation Field
> Truesilver armour
> 
> 
> Mind Blades
> Target model receives -1 Toughness
> 
> 
> MadCowCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> -psyke out grenades: from what I read, pretty sure it said I1
> -can't remember but nemesis force sword still gives +1 invul in CC right?
> -null rod is a power weapon that causes instant death on psykers. can't remember if there was anything else
> -true silver armor causes a S6 hit on daemons for each attack they make on the vehicle
> -warp stabilisation field allows libby to summon the vehicle
> -I don't recall seeing mind blades in the list of powers. I may have just missed it though.
Click to expand...


----------



## jimbo1701

With the brain mines, don't forget the initiative test - I can't remember if it was all or one models in BtB to be honest - one sounds more reasonable.

@Rivan - looks like GW got it wrong!!!

With the NFWs, the daemonbane requires all psykers/daemons to take an LD test or be removed (so no IV saves I gather) - if they are fearless I also gather this only applies to morale/pinning tests and not all Ld based tests (so they still have to take them) The Ld 10 on most Daemons/psykers will help but you'll lose the odd few. Though daemons don't lose their IV saves anymore, it does seem with the higher strength shooting attacks, reroll to hit, higher initiative and 'remove from play' NFWs that they'll be suffering a fair few more wounds to save than before.


----------



## sybarite

more stuff,

Daemon Blade:
roll 2x2d6 at the start of the game and you gain both those powers if you get the same result you may pick any other power.

2-3: +3 to S
4: +3 attacks
5: no amour saves
6: each time you cause a unsaved wound you gain one for your wounds back this can not go over the starting wounds
7:wounds daemon on a 2+ and daemons must reroll pass inv saves
8: gains furious charge and rage
9: gains fell no pain and eternal warrior
10: poison attacks 2+
11-12 mastery level + 1 and the sword is now a force weapon 

also on interceptor squad cost they more then a normal squad, but they count as jump troops as well as there once per game super move. they have all the same options.

also l have not seen mind blades in the new codex.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Wait, what is with the nice JOTWW Template Power? Gone or still in the codex?


----------



## sybarite

Akhara'Keth said:


> Wait, what is with the nice JOTWW Template Power? Gone or still in the codex?


do you mean Warp Rift:
Template, Assault 1, take Initiative test, failed take a wound with no save. Vehicles take 1 penetrating hit.

Warp rift is in l do not know of the power your taking about though.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

From the leaked Codex:

Template, Assault 1

The target unit must take an initiative test for each nonvehicle model hit. For each test that is failed, one model is removed as casualty with no saving throws allowed. Vehicles hit automatically take a single penetration hit


That's what I mean. Still the same or did they change it?


----------



## sybarite

Akhara'Keth said:


> From the leaked Codex:
> 
> Template, Assault 1
> 
> The target unit must take an initiative test for each nonvehicle model hit. For each test that is failed, one model is removed as casualty with no saving throws allowed. Vehicles hit automatically take a single penetration hit
> 
> 
> That's what I mean. Still the same or did they change it?


yes its the same.  called warp rift now


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Awesome! Necrons gonna hate this Codex soooooo much....


----------



## sybarite

l feel more bad for ninds / Chaos due to the whole all your big things are usless.


----------



## Rivan

I have to admit the "all wounds cause ID thing" seems a bit OP. I hope they don't change this with errata or something.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Rivan said:


> I have to admit the "all wounds cause ID thing" seems a bit OP. I hope they don't change this with errata or something.


Well, think about it: Unit of GK charges another unit and completely annihilates them. Shit happens, because in your opponents shooting phase they stand on open field.


----------



## Rivan

Akhara'Keth said:


> Well, think about it: Unit of GK charges another unit and completely annihilates them. Shit happens, because in your opponents shooting phase they stand on open field.


True. Unless that was just one of my GKSS squads that annihilated his deathstar unit, then it would be a fair trade :biggrin:


----------



## sybarite

Akhara'Keth said:


> Well, think about it: Unit of GK charges another unit and completely annihilates them. Shit happens, because in your opponents shooting phase they stand on open field.


here the thing though even if your unit gets charge odds are the thing that charge you will die, even more so if you run halberds and have I6

for example a unit of 6 Gray knights gets charge by a Cannifex you strike 1st with 13 force weapon attacks if one goes though the fex will odds are die. 

what if the fex stays back? odds are it will get shot to death by psycannon's or anything eles they have.

so you see they don't need to charge to wipe out the unit they can sit back and wait to be charge and still odds are win .


----------



## Synack

nm, see you already saw..


----------



## DarkArvenger

sybarite said:


> here the thing though even if your unit gets charge odds are the thing that charge you will die, even more so if you run halberds and have I6
> 
> for example a unit of 6 Gray knights gets charge by a Cannifex you strike 1st with 13 force weapon attacks if one goes though the fex will odds are die.
> 
> what if the fex stays back? odds are it will get shot to death by psycannon's or anything eles they have.
> 
> so you see they don't need to charge to wipe out the unit they can sit back and wait to be charge and still odds are win .


Well guaranteed we're still doomed if we get charged by models with Blessing of the Blood God, even with our I6.:laugh:
But that's for things like Bloodthirsters, which are supposed to be nearly unstoppable in CC. (Used to be able to do it single handedly with old wargear, dunno about now.)

Also, how did they get 13 attacks? I assume you gave them Falchions? Standard GKs with swords would only have 7 attacks in a squad of 6.

Regarding the Blessing of the Blood God giving a 2+ save from force weapons and psychic powers that target him, would Dark Excommunication work in nullifying it? Or will he still get his 2+ save against it?


----------



## Winterous

Akhara'Keth said:


> Awesome! Necrons gonna hate this Codex soooooo much....


They still get Resurrection Orb, so they don't really hate it any more than a single Battle Cannon.


----------



## coke123

I noticed that there's been no talk of the mindstrike missiles (or was it psistrike? the ones on the stormraven)- IIRC S4 ap5 blast, causes automatic perils on any psyker touched by the template. I'm personally a little disappointed, but it's still pretty good.


----------



## Mathai

Its my hope that with this codex, people will start to wean themselves away from those socalled 'Deathstar' units. Take the Nob Bikers for example, with their wound allocating shenanigans. Against the Grey Knights that becomes more of a liability to stuff into smaller scale games I'd think. Still viable, but no longer something to send on their merry way and not think about. Now those Orky players will consider using more of their bread and butter mobs of boyz, who for a fraction of the Nob Biker cost will mop the floor with Strike Squads and their low attack amounts.

Force Weapons are nothing special over plain old power weapons to the standard 1 wound model, and its my hope that the Grey Knights will bring the little guy back to prominence in alot of the horde armies that have a couple huge things that people like to overuse.


----------



## Synack

coke123 said:


> I noticed that there's been no talk of the mindstrike missiles (or was it psistrike? the ones on the stormraven)- IIRC S4 ap5 blast, causes automatic perils on any psyker touched by the template. I'm personally a little disappointed, but it's still pretty good.


Uugh, just when I put a SR on my shopping list  Please tell me you can swap it for free to the same as the BR one with S8 AP1?


----------



## Winterous

Synack said:


> Uugh, just when I put a SR on my shopping list  Please tell me you can swap it for free to the same as the BR one with S8 AP1?


Go look at the codex yourself.
Failing that, buy one anyway, you will certainly use it to transport your dudes into combat.


----------



## Vhalyar

Searched for it and didn't find anything, so I guess no one's asked...
Is the Reinforced Aegis (Dreadnoughts) effect a 12" or 6" bubble in the final version? A confirmation on it still being -4 Ld would be nice too.

I mean, this is gravy on top of double twin S8 autocannons, but it's delicious gravy. Dreadnought does what Dreadkan't!~~


----------



## Lesiu

I wouldn't be suprised if it remained only on the venerable dred. This rule was one of over the top ones IMO.

Edit: Librerian psychic powers listed earlier - are they still 6" range or just the librarian's unit???


----------



## Ninja D

MadCowCrazy said:


> Elite
> Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
> NO, so those forge world psycannons are now worthless.


They are not worthless. As it was stated before, and Assault Cannon with Psybolt Ammunition is pretty much a Psycannon. I plan on using my two Psycannon arms as such anytime I upgrade to the Psybolt Ammo.

On a related note, does anyone know if Psybolt Ammo can be taking on the Assault Cannon or Heavy Bolters of a Land Raider (reedemer, crusader, or otherwise)? If so, I can use my FW Grey Knight conversion kit for my land raider as well.


----------



## DarkArvenger

I haven't seen the codex myself yet since the guys at my local game store want me to buy $20 worth of stuff to look at it, but it says PsyBOLT so i always assumed you could only take it on bolter weapons.
But if you could put it into an Assault cannon that would be pretty cool.


----------



## Vhalyar

Lesiu said:


> I wouldn't be suprised if it remained only on the venerable dred. This rule was one of over the top ones IMO.


Nope, looks like it has stayed as-is! 



Vhalyar said:


> Hey BramGaunt, one detail that I'm very curious about:
> 
> Reinforced Aegis on Dreadnoughts; still a 12" bubble with a protective -4 Ld, and carried by both dreadnought types?





BramGaunt said:


> Yes on both accounts.


I'm never fielding a knight.


----------



## coke123

Synack said:


> Uugh, just when I put a SR on my shopping list  Please tell me you can swap it for free to the same as the BR one with S8 AP1?


Don't think so. You can take HK missiles, IIRC, but they're no substitute for bloodstrikes...


----------



## Synack

That sucks, I was kinda banking on those blood strike as some nice anti-tank


----------



## thehobbz

Well been watching this thread for ages and would love to give everyone rep who posted the little snippets, but can only give so much rep.

I am eagerly wishing it was tomorrow (Saturday) as I will be popping along to my local GW Store to have a look (drool) over the shinies in the black box. I will reserve my judgement of what I think of models till then. Although I have been told that the models are similar to my current metals. So I may not need as many plastics as I feared.

Big thank you to everyone.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

So here is the updated compilation with what I've got so far. Only a few things missing now, thanks go out to Katie Drake and DakkaDakka for providing most of these, and of course you guys 

GK Compilation
HQ
Castellan Crowe
Is NOT an Independent Character

Elite
Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
NO, so those forge world psycannons are now worthless.

Do you need to field an Inquisitor to be able to field an Assassin? Can you field more than 1 Assassin?
No you do not need to field an Inquisitor and yes you can field more than 1 but just not of the same type.

Fast Attack
Is the Stormraven the only Fast Attack?
No, there are Interceptor squads.
Interceptors DO move as Jump Infantry


Wargear
Grenades
Psyk-out Grenades
Daemons and Psykers strike at I1

Rad Grenades
-1 Toughness

Blind Grenades
Defensive Grenades

Psychotroke Grenades
On the round that the model with the grenades assaults or is assaulted roll on some funky table:
1 - Nothing
2 - Enemies get only 1 Attack and are hit automatically.
3 - Re-roll misses in close combat.
4 - Enemy is at I1.
5 - Reduce Ld to 2.
6 - Each model in the unit makes an I test. If it fails, it attacks its own unit that round.


Ranged Weapons
Incinerator
Template, S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer
Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on 4+ unless it'd normally be better.

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

Needle pistol
S3 wounds on 2+, AP2

Hellrifle

Condemnor Boltgun
24" S5 Assault 1, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp (it's the stake crossbow thing)

Close Combat
All Nemesis Weapons have Daemonbane
Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.

Nemesis Force Sword
Force Weapon, +1 Inv in Close Combat

Nemesis Force Haldberd
+2Initiative, Force Weapon

Pair of Nemesis Falchions
+1 Attack, Force Weapon

Nemesis Warding Stave
2+ Invulnerable in Close Combat, Force Weapon

Nemesis Daemonhammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon

Scythian Venom Talon
+2 poison

Daemonhammer

Daemonblade
roll 2x2d6 at the start of the game and you gain both those powers if you get the same result you may pick any other power.

2-3: +3 to S
4: +3 attacks
5: no amour saves
6: each time you cause a unsaved wound you gain one for your wounds back this can not go over the starting wounds
7:wounds daemon on a 2+ and daemons must reroll pass inv saves
8: gains furious charge and rage
9: gains fell no pain and eternal warrior
10: poison attacks 2+
11-12 mastery level + 1 and the sword is now a force weapon 

Null Rod
Power weapon that causes Instant Death to Psykers

Ammunition
Psybolt Ammunition
+1S to Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, Autocannons
Psyflame Ammunition
+1S to all template weapons

Other
Orbital Strike Relay
Can fire an orbital bombardment with one of the following profiles:
S6 AP4 Heavy 3 Large Blast Ordnance
S10 AP1 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Entire template counts as the center hole.
S6 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Causes immediate Perils of the Warp on psykers hit.

Empyrean Brain Mines
One target in CC doesn't not participate in combat (coma)

Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.

Psyocculum
Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker or squad with psyker


Ulumeatni Plasma Syphonplasma
Attacks at unit within 12 use bs 1

Vehicle Weapons
Ranged
Heavy Incinerator
S6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Flamer*
*Fires like a Hellhound: up to 12 inches away.

Gatling Psilencer
Gattling Psilencer - Range 24" S5 AP- Heavy 12 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be better

Heavy Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Rending

Psi-Strike Missiles
S4 AP5, Blast, Causes Perils of the Warp on any Psyker touched by template

Close Combat
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon, strike at Initiative order

Nemesis Greatsword
Reroll 1 miss, wound and armour pen

Nemesis Doomfist
DCCW, Force Weapon

Vehicle Upgrades
Reinforced Aegis Armour
-4Ld for the purpose of enemy Psykic tests 12" around the dreadnought

Warp Stabilisation Field
Allows the Librarian to Summon the vehicle

Truesilver armour
S6 hit on Daemons for each attack they make on the vehicle

Psykic Powers
Librarian
Most have a 6" range
Smite
Same as in C:SM

Quicksilver
Unit strikes at I10

The Shrouding
Unit gains Stealth

Sanctuary
Units trying to assault treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous

Warp Rift
Template, Assault 1, take Initiative test, failed take a wound with no save. Vehicles take 1penetrating hit.

Might of Titan
+1S and +1D6 for vehicle pen

The Summoning
Same as C:SM

Vortex of Doom
12" S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Blast

Grey Knights
Hammerhand
+1S in CC, applied before other modifiers so powerfists would be S10

Heroic Sacrifice
When killed make 1 CC attack, if it hits target is also removed from play.

Psychic Communion
+1 or -1 ti reserve rolls

Astral Aim
Can shoot units not in Line of Sight but they get 4+ cover save

Cleansing Flame
Enemy units locked in same combat takes a wound on 4+ with armour saves allowed

Holocaust
12" S5 AP-, Assault 1, Large Blast

Warp Quake
Deep Strike wargear that reduce scatter dont work within 12", if enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" they get Deep Strike mishap

Vehicles
Fortitude
Negates Shaken and Stunned results


----------



## coke123

Synack said:


> That sucks, I was kinda banking on those blood strike as some nice anti-tank


Yeah, I was hoping along the same lines... Oh well, we can't have it all, I guess.


----------



## Irbian

Ok, one question

What would you use as antitank?
- Psycannon spam?
- Melta henchmens?
Anything else?


----------



## Synack

coke123 said:


> Yeah, I was hoping along the same lines... Oh well, we can't have it all, I guess.


Why not! :angry::ireful2::russianroulette:


----------



## Platton725

Irbian said:


> Ok, one question
> 
> What would you use as antitank?
> - Psycannon spam?
> - Melta henchmens?
> Anything else?


Now that they'ved gimped the Psycannons to 24" range in heavy mode too, i don't think this is very viable to rely on as AT-weapons (24" is awfully close...), however S8 Riflemen dreads looks good...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Jokaero using Lascannons is another option I guess.

Oh oh oh, could someone give me 5 rep so I have 666 rep  That would be so funny since GK are chapter 666 and it's the number tattooed in my forehead


----------



## sybarite

Irbian said:


> Ok, one question
> 
> What would you use as antitank?
> - Psycannon spam?
> - Melta henchmens?
> Anything else?


using range you can either use orbital bombardment, monkeys, razor backs and if you have ton of points to throw LR 

combat wise all Gray knights can take ati tank.

l can also see warp rift being popular for this as well.


----------



## soulreaver296

Well... I don't know what to think about these grey knights anymore

Congrats on 666 rep, MCC


----------



## boreas

Frak the fluff: paint up a bunch of scouts with GK colors and used them as henchmen w/ meltaguns in a razorback 

Phil


----------



## soulreaver296

Psi-strike missles? bad anti tank, better anti unit/horde, and EXCELLENT anti psyker, meaning that one of the big things GKs need to worry about (psychic protection/denial) can be dealt with. (both damage AND perils with one swing)

EDIT: would still like the option to switch out, though


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kinda funny how GKs are tailored to fight Psykers just as well as Daemons, what does this leave for the Sisters of Battle?
Another funny not is that GKs will be the single best codex in the game to fight other GKs with since all are psykers 
Just fire some of those Psi-strike and if you as much as touch a model with the template they get perils, hit a unit of GK and they all get perils or does it count as a single psyker going for the sergeant. Cullexus is going to be a monster since he has Psyocullum and gains 2 extra shots per psyker within 6-12", so get him close enough and you will be deal 20-40 shots at BS10 vs other GKs. Or does the a single psyker rule per unit count in this case as well?

Sigh, codex isnt out yet and already we have found tons of things that need to be FAQd.


Thank you all for the support in me getting 666 rep, my life is now complete as the number in on forehead is starting to glow and burn. I will finally ascend onto the space ship behind the moon to take my place on the throne next to Groszblgur and his Vremszpgu guard...:crazy:

Going to the local club now, c ya all laters.


----------



## Irbian

I probably will use the razorbacks (with stormraven turret of course) And maybe frak the fluff 

MadCowCrazy, sooo this is the time where if someone give you rep you dont thanks them but kill it?


----------



## Dagmire

If you want to go AT then i suggest you take 3 inquisitorial servitors at 10 points each. Up grade their servo arm to a Multi melta for free and wack em in a chimera. 
love the new dex


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

MadCowCrazy said:


> Kinda funny how GKs are tailored to fight Psykers just as well as Daemons, what does this leave for the Sisters of Battle?
> Another funny not is that GKs will be the single best codex in the game to fight other GKs with since all are psykers
> Just fire some of those Psi-strike and if you as much as touch a model with the template they get perils, hit a unit of GK and they all get perils or does it count as a single psyker going for the sergeant. Cullexus is going to be a monster since he has Psyocullum and gains 2 extra shots per psyker within 6-12", so get him close enough and you will be deal 20-40 shots at BS10 vs other GKs. Or does the a single psyker rule per unit count in this case as well?
> 
> Sigh, codex isnt out yet and already we have found tons of things that need to be FAQd.
> 
> 
> Thank you all for the support in me getting 666 rep, my life is now complete as the number in on forehead is starting to glow and burn. I will finally ascend onto the space ship behind the moon to take my place on the throne next to Groszblgur and his Vremszpgu guard...:crazy:
> 
> Going to the local club now, c ya all laters.


I'll be honest, an evil part of me wanted to give you rep just to take you over the 666:threaten:...but I didn't:good:

I can say for a fact that in the previous leaked beta codex, the squad was treated as one psyker, so GW did in fact take into account the Cullexus and Psyocullum. Also, if they perils then only the Justicar takes it. If there is no Justicar than a random model takes it. While I have not seen the new codex, I don't see any reason GW would have changed this rule.


----------



## Irbian

Dagmire said:


> If you want to go AT then i suggest you take 3 inquisitorial servitors at 10 points each. Up grade their servo arm to a Multi melta for free and wack em in a chimera.
> love the new dex


Yeah, is awesome, like apes riding cyberdinosaurs

Wait...


On other topic, Blood of kittens havent released the "big rumour" yet. Its pretty annoying

Probably some BoK fanboy will sue me for this, but there has to be blind to not see this


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Is the picture of the Jokaero for real, please say it's not, please!
I thought the DK was a lousy idea, but the Librarian from Disc World?


----------



## Winterous

normtheunsavoury said:


> Is the picture of the Jokaero for real, please say it's not, please!
> I thought the DK was a lousy idea, but the Librarian from Disc World?


Hey, that was MY joke! >:|
And they look great, they're alien orang-utans with incredibly advanced technology!

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=885547#post885547

Almost 100 pages ago


----------



## bhsman

I'm going to be compiling a COMPLETE rundown of the codex later today if anyone's interested, points costs and all.


----------



## Champion Alaric

Can sisters ally still? anyone?


----------



## godzy

bhsman said:


> I'm going to be compiling a COMPLETE rundown of the codex later today if anyone's interested, points costs and all.


or just scribd it...

where will you be posting the rundown?


----------



## Hurricane

By the way, an individual coteaz model and some other inquisitor models have been added to the HQ section of the GW website. Check it out!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1140003&rootCatGameStyle=


----------



## godzy

question to folk who read the codex- is there truth in the rumour that you may only have one assassin of each temple?


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Winterous said:


> Hey, that was MY joke! >:|
> And they look great, they're alien orang-utans with incredibly advanced technology!
> 
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=885547#post885547
> 
> Almost 100 pages ago


Sorry, couldn't be arsed with trawling through hundreds of pages and thousands of posts. 
I just saw the mini posted up by MCC on the first page, its got to be a joke, surely!
I know about the Space Monkeys, never really liked the idea and was hoping and praying that they had gone the same way as Zoats, seems I was wrong.:hang1:


----------



## Winterous

normtheunsavoury said:


> Sorry, couldn't be arsed with trawling through hundreds of pages and thousands of posts.
> I just saw the mini posted up by MCC on the first page, its got to be a joke, surely!
> I know about the Space Monkeys, never really liked the idea and was hoping and praying that they had gone the same way as Zoats, seems I was wrong.:hang1:


Good is all I can say, they're hilarious looking and AWESOME at the same time!


----------



## smitty23

Holy shit! PsiStrike missles Vs Other gry knights=Death considering thy are ALL Psykers!! Hot damn!


----------



## randyc9999

MadCowCrazy said:


> Servo Skulls
> Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
> Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
> Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
> Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
> A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
> It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.


I read on another board someone claiming that servo skulls also prevent deep striking with 12" of a skull. Can anyone confirm that this is or isn't true?


----------



## jimbo1701

Now got re-organised minis up on the website. So the old witch hunter with hat model, plus gideon lorr (previously limited edition and £40 on ebay) are up, as is coteaz and the other crusader model. Also, the old terminator squad leader is now a brother captain, just as the old PA justicar has been used for the brotherhood champion.

Note, the sister hospitaller is now available as a single model in the WH section


----------



## Patch

If someone would be so kind, do you know if the temple assassins have infiltrate?


----------



## OpTi

am i the only one who doesn't like the look of the new psycannon model?


----------



## asianavatar

I definitely like the old psycannons better.


----------



## alex567

OpTi said:


> am i the only one who doesn't like the look of the new psycannon model?


I think thye are gorgeus, i would take a few but in the army of got planned i dont need any but im gonna need to find another 8 halberds, which is realy anoying.


----------



## OpTi

alex567 said:


> I think thye are gorgeus, i would take a few but in the army of got planned i dont need any but im gonna need to find another 8 halberds, which is realy anoying.


it looks like a pneumatic drill, the psilencer looks more like a beefy cannon and it sucks.


----------



## alex567

OpTi said:


> it looks like a pneumatic drill, the psilencer looks more like a beefy cannon and it sucks.


BIO SHOCK HERE WE COME!!! but you could probably get away with counting the new psilencers as psycannons, i know i wouldnt have an issue, just make it clear to your opponent before the battle.


----------



## oiad

asianavatar said:


> I definitely like the old psycannons better.


Ditto.



smitty23 said:


> Holy shit! PsiStrike missles Vs Other gry knights=Death considering thy are ALL Psykers!! Hot damn!


Grey Knights vs Grey Knights is going to be a very quick and bloody affair whatever happens...

...as will Grey Knights vs Daemons, only it'll likely be more one-sided. :laugh:


----------



## alex567

oiad said:


> Ditto.
> 
> 
> Grey Knights vs Grey Knights is going to be a very quick and bloody affair whatever happens...
> 
> ...as will Grey Knights vs Daemons, only it'll likely be more one-sided. :laugh:


I can just imagine going into my local games workshop, 
me- "oh hey there" 
them- "oh hi" "want a game" 
me- "oh ok" "what army you got?" 
them- "chaos daemons, you?" 
me- "Grey knights" 
them- "oh sorry dude just realised i have left the warp open cant play see you later" 
me- "hmm another daemon player doesnt want to play me"


----------



## WHEEMIKE

As it stands now I’ll refuse to play some DK players. Low point games and friends will be ok. As noble at the 40k forum community seems to be I’ve ran into a lot of people that will tailor to my daemons just to have the chance to face rape an army.


----------



## DarkArvenger

OpTi said:


> it looks like a pneumatic drill, the psilencer looks more like a beefy cannon and it sucks.


If you play Apocalypse, and your Daemon playing buddy brings in An'ggrath or any other Greater Daemon Lord, I think the Psilencer has a better chance of wounding him even with his ridiculous T8.

Also, would Blessing of the Blood God give a 2+ save against Dark Excommunication?


----------



## Matosrogue

*Psychotroke Grenades*

Hey Everyone. I have a few questions.

Can you take a mixed amount of weapons per squad? say something like...

Paladin squad
- 3 Halberds
- 2 Falchions

The pictures on the GW site definitely make this seem legal, I'm just making sure. It seems like a good decision to cut down a few people who have the same initiative such as space marines with the halberd units and then get finish them off with more attacks.

I was also wondering which Grey Knight units (this means no Inquisitorial Units please ) Can use Psychotroke Grenades. I'm hoping Paladins as they seem nasty.

Sorry if these questions have been answered before, I've understood just about everything so far, and read this forum every day but It's understandable one can miss a few bits of information here and there 

Also, thanks to all the contributors on this thread for all the leaked info / pictures / confirmations. Since I heard about this army I knew it was going to be "Boss" and you guys / girls amplified that excitement haha.

The fact that one psychic test is required to activate all "instant death" effects from the NFW is great :crazy:


----------



## OpTi

DarkArvenger said:


> If you play Apocalypse, and your Daemon playing buddy brings in An'ggrath or any other Greater Daemon Lord, I think the Psilencer has a better chance of wounding him even with his ridiculous T8.
> 
> Also, would Blessing of the Blood God give a 2+ save against Dark Excommunication?


i don't play apoc


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Blood of Kittens had the summary section of the codex available for download.
I will not post a link to, pm me if you have any questions.


----------



## gally912

I'm convinced the Dreadknight is an elaborate April fools joke.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, with the Sisters Hospitaller in the Witch Hunter HQ section does this mean there might be some truth to the WD update rumour? or why would they put it there if the codex isn't coming out for another year?


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, with the Sisters Hospitaller in the Witch Hunter HQ section does this mean there might be some truth to the WD update rumour? or why would they put it there if the codex isn't coming out for another year?


Wha is the WD update rumor?


----------



## Winterous

Inquisitor Dagron XIII said:


> Wha is the WD update rumor?


That the SoB codex will have a White Dwarf release, like Blood Angels did before their current codex.


----------



## Kettu

The ONLY people who talk about that rumour like it had any weight is a group of net-podcasters.
Not other source has said anything about the WD update.

As for the Hospitaller?
She was previously only part of the old Inquissiy and retinue box and from what I understand she has no counterpart in the GK dex so removal of her from the box is probably for simple convenience.


----------



## schenck

Just looked at the codex and the wording on the grand strategy rule is interesting. It says that it cannot be used on Mordraks unit of ghostknights but can it be used on Mordrak himself? He is not an IC so it is right on that account. any thoughts?


----------



## Rivan

schenck said:


> Just looked at the codex and the wording on the grand strategy rule is interesting. It says that it cannot be used on Mordraks unit of ghostknights but can it be used on Mordrak himself? He is not an IC so it is right on that account. any thoughts?


That's interesting. I recall it said it doesn't work on Independent Characters. Not sure if it mentioned anything on Unique characters. If not, then Crowe and Mordrak can be made scoring?


----------



## coke123

Matosrogue said:


> Hey Everyone. I have a few questions.
> 
> Can you take a mixed amount of weapons per squad? say something like...
> 
> Paladin squad
> - 3 Halberds
> - 2 Falchions
> 
> The pictures on the GW site definitely make this seem legal, I'm just making sure. It seems like a good decision to cut down a few people who have the same initiative such as space marines with the halberd units and then get finish them off with more attacks.
> 
> I was also wondering which Grey Knight units (this means no Inquisitorial Units please ) Can use Psychotroke Grenades. I'm hoping Paladins as they seem nasty.


You can arm your squads with mixed weaponry.

IIRC, psychotrokes are a wargear option for characters- Grandmasters, Brother Captains, maybe libbie's (although i doubt it), and maybe inquisitors (didn't really check them out). So there's going to be two models with them per army. I don't think paladins have access to them.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Blood of Kittens released their uber bombshell rumour.

Ok the ”Bombshell” I really need to use better wording…

”By the end of the next Olympics we will treated to 6th ed Warhammer 40k”
Now that is something that people that follow GW trends have suspected for awhile. So really that is not that earth shattering. What makes 6thed potentially earth shattering is the version of AoBR we will get. For the first time ever neither Xenos, the Warriors of Roboute Guilliman, or the Sledgehammer of the Emperor will be chosen to fill the starter box.

What that means well all of us will have to wait to find out…

The only possibility I see are Sisters of Battle vs Chaos Daemons/Space Marines.
A line up like that doesn't really make sense, Sisters vs Necrons would be perfect and fit both fluff and the books coming out later this year.

When is the next Olympics? Later this year? 6ed this year? Well, I'd be happy with that since that would mean that the Sisters of Battle wouldn't be the last codex before a new edition rending it obsolete in one way or another since GW doesn't create rules with newer edition in mind even if they are just a month or two after the codex release.
Now that's a long rant :crazy:


----------



## RedemptionNL

I think the next Olympics are in the summer of 2012?

And Necrons are considered Xenos right? So I guess they're out if his rumour is correct.

Perhaps Grey Knights vs Chaos Daemons? Probably one of the most fluffly combinations there is, and they might want to get more people to start Grey Knight armies.


----------



## godzy

nope, the most sense is sisters. 
AOBR style boxes use snap fit models- that means anew sprue for GK, bur since they just made one, I think it's not likely. more over' a 15-18 model army of GK is a lot more points then needed for a starter box. GW wouldn't want to give away too much in one box. sisters are good for snap fit, will have a decent model count, and there have been sightings of sisters greens lately. chaos daemons or CSM as opponent.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> When is the next Olympics? Later this year? 6ed this year?


London 2012.

I have trouble believing that it'd be sisters... Although that'd be good. Especially if that meant that they were the first to get a shiny 6E codex.


----------



## RedemptionNL

godzy said:


> nope, the most sense is sisters.
> AOBR style boxes use snap fit models- that means anew sprue for GK, bur since they just made one, I think it's not likely. more over' a 15-18 model army of GK is a lot more points then needed for a starter box. GW wouldn't want to give away too much in one box. sisters are good for snap fit, will have a decent model count, and there have been sightings of sisters greens lately. chaos daemons or CSM as opponent.


Well they'd have to make new sprues regardless of which army it is, so I doubt that would be an issie. As for Sisters in the box, I don't see them doing that unless they've updated the range with a lot of plastic model by then. Starter sets are a big initiative for people to start one of the two armies in the box, and when you can't even get plastic troops, I don't see a lot of people picking up sisters.


----------



## bitsandkits

Marines are always going to be in the starter box, never gonna change, to be honest i nt see the contents changing, just a new rule book, the box set is pretty perfect as it is and is still one of the biggest sellers in the GW range


----------



## Keecai

bitsandkits said:


> Marines are always going to be in the starter box, never gonna change, to be honest i nt see the contents changing, just a new rule book, the box set is pretty perfect as it is and is still one of the biggest sellers in the GW range


I agree that the marines will still be there, they are the top selling models by a mile and have been in the starter kit as far back as i can remember. 

However the other army could be changed, we have seen, orks and nids in the past. (least what i remember...) my bet would be on chaos of some variety, would help to boost daemon numbers after this GK release!


----------



## smitty23

anyone wanna place bets that codex ultramarines will be a stand alone dex in 6thed?


----------



## Keecai

smitty23 said:


> anyone wanna place bets that codex ultramarines will be a stand alone dex in 6thed?


It would be fair!!! However are they not the key aspect of the current Codex??


----------



## jimbo1701

So, anyone know if the orbital strike relay can be used more than once per game? Just that it's double the price of the SM upgrade, and if Karmazov (sp?) is a relentless IC, I can see packing him in a small squad of crusaders and shooting the relay from the other side of the battlefield to be a decent use for him, especially as he can still move and fire it.


----------



## Winterous

smitty23 said:


> anyone wanna place bets that codex ultramarines will be a stand alone dex in 6thed?


There was a particularly radical rumour that the Emperor would finally cark it, and the Ultramarines would be decimated in some way, forcing them to resort to very creative tactics, basically being ramshackle and guerrilla.
If this is true, then yes, I certainly would expect them to have an independent codex, and they would deserve it.
If it's not true, and the Ultramarines stay the way they are, then absolutely not; they don't deserve it, because they ARE the codex, they follow it to a fault.

What I hope they do, however, is bring back the 'mini-dexes', which covered the variations of each chapter, you use it in conjunction with the normal SM codex, kinda like Craftworld Eldar.

Something similar to that, at least; for the chapters which don't have huge variations (like Blood Angels), but change their tactics, their force organisation, etc.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

I really wonder what they would change in 6th edition. Any ideas? I think they'll make rules for flyers....


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Akhara'Keth said:


> I really wonder what they would change in 6th edition. Any ideas? I think they'll make rules for flyers....


Hopefully fix wound allocation shenanigans and hopefully something about area terrain.

Some more missions and deployment types would be good as well, I think they might end up putting those formations into it as well to allow people to put more models on the table. With every edition they do something to increase the amount of models we put on the table.

Not sure if there is anything else that needs fixing, some would argue ToS but I actually like it.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> Not sure if there is anything else that needs fixing, some would argue ToS but I actually like it.


ToS being TLoS?
It works FAR better than anything there was before, changing it would be totally ridiculous.
It's quick, it's intuitive, and it fucking works, don't change it.

I kinda hope they redo the vehicle damage system, make it more varied and intricate, bring some value back to Lascannon, stop the Meltagun being the best anti-tank weapon a man could hope for.


----------



## Brovius

I liked the seperate glancing and penetrating charts, but i'd be willing to settle for a Walker damage chart 

1- A powerful hit sends the walker reeling back, but no serious damage is sustained. The walker moves D6" away from the direction of the hit. It may still move and fire next turn.
2- The walker suffers a hit strong enough to temporarily power-down it's systems. The walker cannot shoot during the owning player's next turn. It also loses 1 attack in close combat during the player's next turn.

Then the rest would probably end up the same as the current damage table.
Maybe the walkers could topple over like WFB Giants on a Destroyed- Wrecked result? Use the scatter dice to determine the direction it falls, with a small blast marker placed adjacent to the walker's base in the direction shown on the scatter dice. Resolve as a S5 hit to models caught under the template, with armour saves allowed.


----------



## smitty23

I can see an independent dex being beneficial to GW. The fact that the other marine dex's are there to sell more kits leads me to believe the more marine stand alone books the more of an audience the race can relate too. want fast moving assaulty forces, blood angels. Stealthy tricky tactics, make a ravengaurd dex. All around balance, play the ultramarines. I know it floods the market with space marines but if you want the company to survive and continue to put out a quality game they have to make money. I think the ultramarines have more than enough fluff and special characters to support it's own codex. and it would be a top seller considering the amount of smurf fanboys. Make them competative as well to apply to tourney players and you have a gold mine!


----------



## Keecai

Back to the new codex,
Does anyone know a list of the options available to the acolytes?


----------



## Matosrogue

*Thanks*



coke123 said:


> You can arm your squads with mixed weaponry.
> 
> IIRC, psychotrokes are a wargear option for characters- Grandmasters, Brother Captains, maybe libbie's (although i doubt it), and maybe inquisitors (didn't really check them out). So there's going to be two models with them per army. I don't think paladins have access to them.


Thanks Coke, Then I can set up my units how I want them and this should mean Supreme Grandmaster Lord Kaldor Draigo should have Psychotrokes. I'd feel bad for anyone assaulting or being assaulted by any squad Mr. Draigo is tagging along with :crazy:\

I'll give you rep if I can, unless there's a new member restriction from that :so_happy:


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Blood of Kittens released their uber bombshell rumour.
> 
> Ok the ”Bombshell” I really need to use better wording…
> 
> ”By the end of the next Olympics we will treated to 6th ed Warhammer 40k”
> Now that is something that people that follow GW trends have suspected for awhile. So really that is not that earth shattering. What makes 6thed potentially earth shattering is the version of AoBR we will get. For the first time ever neither Xenos, the Warriors of Roboute Guilliman, or the Sledgehammer of the Emperor will be chosen to fill the starter box.
> 
> What that means well all of us will have to wait to find out…
> 
> The only possibility I see are Sisters of Battle vs Chaos Daemons/Space Marines.
> A line up like that doesn't really make sense, Sisters vs Necrons would be perfect and fit both fluff and the books coming out later this year.
> 
> When is the next Olympics? Later this year? 6ed this year? Well, I'd be happy with that since that would mean that the Sisters of Battle wouldn't be the last codex before a new edition rending it obsolete in one way or another since GW doesn't create rules with newer edition in mind even if they are just a month or two after the codex release.
> Now that's a long rant :crazy:



If Sisters of Battle are in the 6e starter kit I will let you sexually rule me like a king, MCC.

Assuming BoK isn't talking out of his arse as usual, then it's obvious who will be in the kit, Black Templars and Chaos Marines.

Remember, Dark Milenium Online is coming out around then. Little Timmy will play the game, and will whine until his parents buy him the tabletop starter kit. DMO features Black Templars - Little Timmy will want to collect that army.


I doubt that BoK is right, though. Space Marines Vs Space Marines makes for a dull set (Even GW must realise that?). My money is still on Smurfs Vs Eldar.


----------



## godzy

I just got the same idea a few minutes ago- not a codex chapter, very well established in fluff and drawing of old, in need of an update. the 3rd edition BBB had them on the cover.


----------



## Brovius

Azezel said:


> If Sisters of Battle are in the 6e starter kit I will let you sexually rule me like a king, MCC.
> 
> Assuming BoK isn't talking out of his arse as usual, then it's obvious who will be in the kit, Black Templars and Chaos Marines.
> 
> Remember, Dark Milenium Online is coming out around then. Little Timmy will play the game, and will whine until his parents buy him the tabletop starter kit. DMO features Black Templars - Little Timmy will want to collect that army.
> 
> 
> I doubt that BoK is right, though. Space Marines Vs Space Marines makes for a dull set (Even GW must realise that?). My money is still on Smurfs Vs Eldar.


I'd be more inclined to say Templars vs. Eldar.
But that's just a rather educated guess on my behalf. It makes sense, GW get to showcase more Space Marines, there is a fluff reason as to why the Templars would be slaying Eldar, plus they also drum up support for another army that isdue for an update soon.


----------



## Kettu

I have an awful habit of reading posts in the voice or style of their avatar and even picturing the people themselves as their avatar.



Azezel said:


> If Sisters of Battle are in the 6e starter kit I will let you sexually rule me like a king, MCC.


Needless to say, I have a mental image stuck deep in my rather active imagination that I would have rather did not exist in the first place.

---

I was down at my local today and the manager just let me thumb through the new GK codex for a bit.

I didn't care to commit any rules to memory, don't ask.

I was mostly looking at the artwork (The Jokearo (Blah! Spelling?) mini looks cool) and the fluff (Dear god, the absolute fanwank! Ward seems to be getting worse with each and every codex).
It is a general trend that each previous dex will give mention to and hint towards the next codex or two along.
And well... From what I could see, Sisters receive no mention in any way, shape or form. (not even Walky McThrone's fluff even hints towards them)
This doesn't say much but does support the notion that Sisters are far more then 'just a few months behind' the Grey Knights.


----------



## Wusword77

For those wondering and have time to check /TG/ over at 4chan someone scanned and posted the Summary page to the new codex. New weapons in the codex look amazing.


----------



## godzy

summary was out a few houres ago. I want all the other pages.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Kettu said:


> I have an awful habit of reading posts in the voice or style of their avatar and even picturing the people themselves as their avatar.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say, I have a mental image stuck deep in my rather active imagination that I would have rather did not exist in the first place.


GO GO GADGET SLURP SLURP!!

Someone said earlier that the Hospitaller was probably just moved to the WH section since they obviously have just repackaged all the old Retinue boxes into smaller ones.

This I can accept but it does NOT explain why the Hospitaller is in the HQ section, shouldn't she be in the Elite section? Mistake by GW or will you be able to field a Hospitaller as a HQ?

I suggested before that they should have a section where you could chose between a few different models and they would work like the priest model does in the WH codex. You can attach them to different squads, dont count as a HQ choice and become IC only when rest of squad is dead with a limit of 5 per army.

Choices would be priests and minor ordos.
Hospitaller FNP to squad
Priest Furious Charge or the old Reroll to hit
Dialogus 6" Stubborn similar to how Book of Saint Lucius worked before
Familiaris No idea, do they even have a battlefield role? Dig up dirty secrets about your enemy threatening to reveal them lowering enemy LD by -2?

I could see them doing something like this at least...


----------



## Azezel

Kettu said:


> I have an awful habit of reading posts in the voice or style of their avatar and even picturing the people themselves as their avatar.


I thought I was the only one who did that.

Hm, should I switch back to my Devil Girl from Mars Avatar?











Er, moving on, I imagine the Hospitalier is in HQ because she's an HQ retinue option, for Witch Hunters.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> I thought I was the only one who did that.
> 
> Hm, should I switch back to my Devil Girl from Mars Avatar?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Er, moving on, I imagine the Hospitalier is in HQ because she's an HQ retinue option, for Witch Hunters.


Have they ever listed retinue options in the HQ section though? Not sure if they do that, mainly because retinue options are normally troops or elites.


----------



## godzy

/tg/ has some more goodies!

no link, go get them yourself. we got to keep things clean here.


----------



## Azezel

I couldn't say, never having used any Inquisition units, or bought anything but my Exorcists from GW's site I'm not very familiar with normal practice.

I doubt that there is a White Dwarf update on the cards though. Old as it is, the current Sisters 'dex is still servicable and a White Dwarf 'dex wouldn't sell models, so there's no need for GW do do it.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

godzy said:


> /tg/ has some more goodies!
> 
> no link, go get them yourself. we got to keep things clean here.


What is /tg/?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Akhara'Keth said:


> What is /tg/?


4chan.org, they have tons of sections. /tg/ is tabletop gaming or Tactical Genius as it's more known as.... CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!


----------



## Wusword77

Someone also posted scans of the Assassin page. I'm not impressed with them overall. They look like they'd be insane from their stat line, but their abilities and equipment aren't all that impressive, or even good.

I posted a quick summery of them in our general forum I'm going to quote it here.




Wusword77 said:


> Someone posted scans of the assassin page from the new GK codex on /tg/ today. They look scary but i don't think they are all that amazing.
> 
> Culexus Assassins get a Str 5 ap 1 Ass 2 weapon and the ability to force other units to pass leadership tests to hit him. And his weapon gives an extra attack if he targets a psyker. Meh
> 
> Callidus Assassin gets a power weapon that inflicts instant death, a gun that tests against leadership and can't hit tanks, and a nice reserve special rule for d6 hits at str 4 ap 2 when coming in (also lets you start within 3in of the damaged unit). Has hit and Run and Stealth. The boosted statline really helps here and the DS rule make this assassin seemingly useful. Might be the most useful one except you can't Assault after deep striking, even though the unit was on the ground hiding in an enemy squad.
> 
> Eversor Assassin gets a lightning claw, melta bombs, pistol that shoots hellfire rounds, furious charge, and d6 extra attacks on the charge. Meh he still needs to get to the enemy to be useful.
> 
> And finally the Vindicare Assassin
> 
> Has 2 guns that fire special bullets (hellfire, bullet that destroys Invul saves from equipment only, and a round that does 2 wounds or 4d6 armor pen) Stealth and Infiltrate, and Deadshot (you select the wounded model). Cool unit, rifle got a 36in range but it's heavy 1. So once a turn I can snipe a unit, not do instant death and only inflict maximum 2 wounds a turn or pop a tank. It's ok, not great, but ok.
> 
> I'm not impressed by these guys. They're going to be magnets for fire and not being IC's (to my knowledge anyway) they can't link up with another squad. Not overpowered by any means, unless you're doing King of Cheese's Ultimate unit game.


----------



## Irbian

Apparently, the grand masters rules are:
- Reroll 1`s to wound 
- Counter-attack 
- Scout
- Can claim objetives

I want the codex so much in my hands


----------



## godzy

the eversor has S4AP2 poison pistol- that means no armour saves, and rerolls to wound on low T models. not a plain hellfire round


----------



## MadCowCrazy

His weapon is a lightning claw so he rerolls all failed to wound rolls.


----------



## alex567

hey all its me back!!! ive had along hour to look at the grey knights codex and practicly tell you most of the rules, so ask away oh and mad cow crazy the hellrifle is range 36" s6 ap3 heavy 1 rending, and can be taken by the ordo maleus inquisitor.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Just write a summary of the codex and put it on Scribdk:


----------



## alex567

Akhara'Keth said:


> Just write a summary of the codex and put it on Scribdk:


when i return home ill finish my list and post it to scribd then update it with info as i go along, just for the record is their any info you want me to include or do you just want me to stick with wargear rules and special rules? for instance squad cost and stats?


----------



## abitterbuffalo

I have a question about the final codex. To take a special weapon, do pagk have to exchange both their storm bolter and nemesis weapon? In the beta dex they have to, but in the pictures on GW they're shown with psycannons and nemesis swords.

On an unrelated to this, but to another topic, topic. The Battle Sisters. I am very hopeful that we will see some form of update for them in the near future. My best guess would be a simple "second wave" release of models for them. There have been rumors of folks having seen plastic sisters and repentia, which would be enough to make me consider expanding my army. Even if they don't have a codex update right away, a full on SoB force is still highly competitive. 

With the bulk of the Inquisition put into the new GK codex they'll have to go a different direction with the new Sisters'. I could really see them taking Acts of Faith and making them unit specific, much like how the brotherhood of psykers works. Sister Hospitalars would be interesting as an HQ choice, along with Canoness, Confessor, Missionary. Penitence Engine would hopefully be counted as a monstrous creature in the same vein as the DK. I'd consider using one, then.


----------



## alex567

abitterbuffalo said:


> I have a question about the final codex. To take a special weapon, do pagk have to exchange both their storm bolter and nemesis weapon? In the beta dex they have to, but in the pictures on GW they're shown with psycannons and nemesis swords.


I dont know where this picture is, but yes the special weapons do replace both the storm bolter and nemesis weapons. Are you sure it isnt the terminators you saw?

oh and i can confirm that 99% of the leaked pre-complete codex is accurate and precisly correct.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

alex567 said:


> I dont know where this picture is, but yes the special weapons do replace both the storm bolter and nemesis weapons. Are you sure it isnt the terminators you saw?


Huh, perhaps I was imagining things... could'a sworn. Anyway, thanks for the quick response. If so much from the beta holds then I have some planning to do.


----------



## alex567

abitterbuffalo said:


> Huh, perhaps I was imagining things... could'a sworn. Anyway, thanks for the quick response. If so much from the beta holds then I have some planning to do.


If your gonna wite a list write out what you want and ill give you the points for it, so for instance write a squad and its weapons and ill tell you the points for the squad its weapons and the total, as much as i know.
example:
Grey knight strike squad: 200pts
9 helberds 45pts
warding stave 25pts
270pts


----------



## Azezel

abitterbuffalo said:


> On an unrelated to this, but to another topic, topic. The Battle Sisters. I am very hopeful that we will see some form of update for them in the near future. My best guess would be a simple "second wave" release of models for them. There have been rumors of folks having seen plastic sisters and repentia, which would be enough to make me consider expanding my army. Even if they don't have a codex update right away, a full on SoB force is still highly competitive.
> 
> With the bulk of the Inquisition put into the new GK codex they'll have to go a different direction with the new Sisters'. I could really see them taking Acts of Faith and making them unit specific, much like how the brotherhood of psykers works. Sister Hospitalars would be interesting as an HQ choice, along with Canoness, Confessor, Missionary. Penitence Engine would hopefully be counted as a monstrous creature in the same vein as the DK. I'd consider using one, then.



The best anyone knows is that

a) The Sisters ARE getting a new 'dex of some description - which was started around six months after GK.

b) It'll be the last of the current style of codices.

c) Plastic Sisters are AT LEAST 12 months away, and that's if they started now, which they haven't.

My money is on the end of 2012, or start of 2013. I'm also betting the hypothetical farm on it being the last 5e 'dex, but both of those are just my guesses. The a-b-c points above are as close to facts as we have.

It's dearly to be hoped that there won't be any inquisition presence in the 'dex, and the inclusion of all three Ordos in codex: Grey Knights gives us hope that that may be the case. If it is, expect to see expanded Ecclesiarchy options.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

I've been working out some armies from the beta dex... haven't played any of the lists yet. My friends refuse to. I think it's because I've been scaring them for the past month with all the tidbits of goodies we've been finding out about the final codex.

I've been finding it hard to create a list that I feel comfortable with. At first I was favoring the firing line sort of army like the old codex, with two Dreadknights at the rear instead of three Dreadnoughts. They looked good, but didn't do much to play on the new strengths the army received. Then I turned to a highly mechanized, small groups of knights in Rhinos and Razorbacks. That felt too much like a codex marine list.

Now I'm looking at the Interceptor Squads (I think that's what the 'porters are called). I like the idea of being able to deploy your forces across the board, then first turn shunting all those Interceptors from the right side to the left, taking many of them out of range of your opponent's marine killers (demolisher cannons and the like). Or on the last turn of an objective game, shunting two Incinerators next to that small mob parked on your opponent's home objective. Very sneaky and liable to get you bitch slapped from across the table.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

Azezel said:


> The best anyone knows is that
> 
> a) The Sisters ARE getting a new 'dex of some description - which was started around six months after GK.
> 
> b) It'll be the last of the current style of codices.
> 
> c) Plastic Sisters are AT LEAST 12 months away, and that's if they started now, which they haven't.
> 
> My money is on the end of 2012, or start of 2013. I'm also betting the hypothetical farm on it being the last 5e 'dex, but both of those are just my guesses. The a-b-c points above are as close to facts as we have.
> 
> It's dearly to be hoped that there won't be any inquisition presence in the 'dex, and the inclusion of all three Ordos in codex: Grey Knights gives us hope that that may be the case. If it is, expect to see expanded Ecclesiarchy options.


Well, 2012 isn't that far off. Provided the world doesn't implode, I hope to have my GK army completed so collecting new sisters looks entirely possible. I just wish I would have bought a couple more of the Battle Sisters 10 packs when they were up on GW. I was --I I-- this close to a full 1500 list.


----------



## Keecai

alex567 said:


> when i return home ill finish my list and post it to scribd then update it with info as i go along, just for the record is their any info you want me to include or do you just want me to stick with wargear rules and special rules? for instance squad cost and stats?


Do you know about the henchmen options and costs? Read somewhere they get shotguns but didn't see this in summary. Also someone mentioned heavy weapons...
If you could do a summary that it would be great.


----------



## superwill

alex567 said:


> when i return home ill finish my list and post it to scribd then update it with info as i go along, just for the record is their any info you want me to include or do you just want me to stick with wargear rules and special rules? for instance squad cost and stats?


Awesome man!

Been asking everywhere but can't get an answer. Interceptor squads, how much do they cost? Do you know how much extra it costs to give them a psycannon? And how much is an incinerator? And do you know how many special weapons they can take per 5 men?

Also, are the points in the leaked codex right for henchmen servitors and acolytes? 20pts for plasma cannon, 10pt Heavy bolter, 9pt hot-shot lasguns, 14 point plasma guns?

Thanks so much for your help!!!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

My compilation now looks like this, only Daemonhammer is missing now. I think it's a ordo malleus inquisitor weapon. It's not the nemesis daemonhammer but just a regular daemonhammer.

GK Compilation
HQ
Castellan Crowe
Is NOT an Independent Character

Elite
Can you put Psycannons on any type of Dreadnought?
No, but if you take an Assault Cannon and get psybolts it will have the exact same stats.

Do you need to field an Inquisitor to be able to field an Assassin? Can you field more than 1 Assassin?
No you do not need to field an Inquisitor and yes you can field more than 1 but just not of the same type.

Fast Attack
Is the Stormraven the only Fast Attack?
No, there are Interceptor squads.
Interceptors DO move as Jump Infantry

Wargear
Grenades
Psyk-out Grenades
Daemons and Psykers strike at I1

Rad Grenades
-1 Toughness

Blind Grenades
Defensive Grenades

Psychotroke Grenades
On the round that the model with the grenades assaults or is assaulted roll on some funky table:
1 - Nothing
2 - Enemies get only 1 Attack and are hit automatically.
3 - Re-roll misses in close combat.
4 - Enemy is at I1.
5 - Reduce Ld to 2.
6 - Each model in the unit makes an I test. If it fails, it attacks its own unit that round.

Ranged Weapons
Incinerator
Template, S6 AP4 Assault 1

Psilencer
Range 24" S4 AP- Heavy 6 Always wounds Daemons on 4+ unless it'd normally be better.

Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending or Range 24" S7 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

Needle pistol
S3 wounds on 2+, AP2

Hellrifle
36" s6 ap3 heavy 1 rending

Condemnor Boltgun
24" S5 Assault 1, any psyker hit suffers perils of the warp (it's the stake crossbow thing)

Close Combat
All Nemesis Weapons have Daemonbane
Any Psyker or Daemon that took an unsaved wound from a Nemesis Force Weapon (any kind) must take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, the model is removed from play.

Nemesis Force Sword
Force Weapon, +1 Inv in Close Combat

Nemesis Force Haldberd
+2Initiative, Force Weapon

Pair of Nemesis Falchions
+1 Attack, Force Weapon

Nemesis Warding Stave
2+ Invulnerable in Close Combat, Force Weapon

Nemesis Daemonhammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon

Scythian Venom Talon
+2 poison

Daemonhammer

Daemonblade
Roll 2x2d6 at the start of the game and you gain both those powers if you get the same result you may pick any other power.

2-3: +3 to S
4: +3 attacks
5: No Armour Saves
6: Each time you cause a unsaved wound you gain one for your wounds back this can not go over the starting wounds
7: wounds daemon on a 2+ and daemons must reroll pass inv saves
8: Gains Furious Charge and Rage
9: Gains Feel no Pain and Eternal Warrior
10: Poison attacks 2+
11-12 Mastery level + 1 and the sword is now a Force Weapon 

Null Rod
Power weapon that causes Instant Death to Psykers

Ammunition
Psybolt Ammunition
+1S to Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Assault Cannons, Autocannons
Psyflame Ammunition
+1S to all template weapons

Other
Orbital Strike Relay
Can fire an orbital bombardment with one of the following profiles:
S6 AP4 Heavy 3 Large Blast Ordnance
S10 AP1 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Entire template counts as the center hole.
S6 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Ordnance. Causes immediate Perils of the Warp on psykers hit.

Empyrean Brain Mines
One target in CC doesn't not participate in combat (coma)

Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.

Psyocculum
Ballistic Skill 10 if shooting at a psyker or squad with psyker

Ulumeatni Plasma Syphonplasma
Attacks at unit within 12 use bs 1

Vehicle Weapons
Ranged
Heavy Incinerator
S6 AP 4 Heavy 1, Flamer*
*Fires like a Hellhound: up to 12 inches away.

Gatling Psilencer
Gattling Psilencer - Range 24" S5 AP- Heavy 12 Always wounds Daemons on a 4+ unless it'd normally be better

Heavy Psycannon
Range 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast Rending

Psi-Strike Missiles
S4 AP5, Blast, Causes Perils of the Warp on any Psyker touched by template

Close Combat
Nemesis Daemon Hammer
Thunder Hammer, Force Weapon, strike at Initiative order

Nemesis Greatsword
Reroll 1 miss, wound and armour pen

Nemesis Doomfist
DCCW, Force Weapon

Vehicle Upgrades
Reinforced Aegis Armour
-4Ld for the purpose of enemy Psykic tests 12" around the dreadnought

Warp Stabilisation Field
Allows the Librarian to Summon the vehicle

Truesilver armour
S6 hit on Daemons for each attack they make on the vehicle

Psykic Powers
Librarian
Most have a 6" range
Smite
Same as in C:SM

Quicksilver
Unit strikes at I10

The Shrouding
Unit gains Stealth

Sanctuary
Units trying to assault treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous

Warp Rift
Template, Assault 1, take Initiative test, failed take a wound with no save. Vehicles take 1penetrating hit.

Might of Titan
+1S and +1D6 for vehicle pen

The Summoning
Same as C:SM

Vortex of Doom
12" S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Blast

Grey Knights
Hammerhand
+1S in CC, applied before other modifiers so powerfists would be S10

Heroic Sacrifice
When killed make 1 CC attack, if it hits target is also removed from play.

Psychic Communion
+1 or -1 ti reserve rolls

Astral Aim
Can shoot units not in Line of Sight but they get 4+ cover save

Cleansing Flame
Enemy units locked in same combat takes a wound on 4+ with armour saves allowed

Holocaust
12" S5 AP-, Assault 1, Large Blast

Warp Quake
Deep Strike wargear that reduce scatter dont work within 12", if enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" they get Deep Strike mishap

Vehicles
Fortitude
Negates Shaken and Stunned results


----------



## RedemptionNL

superwill said:


> Been asking everywhere but can't get an answer. Interceptor squads, how much do they cost? Do you know how much extra it costs to give them a psycannon? And how much is an incinerator? And do you know how many special weapons they can take per 5 men?


They're the same as in the leaked dex, they just removed the teleporter option from the Strike Squad and made a Fast Attack entry with them. They still even have Warp Quake.


----------



## alex567

superwill said:


> Awesome man!
> 
> Been asking everywhere but can't get an answer. Interceptor squads, how much do they cost? Do you know how much extra it costs to give them a psycannon? And how much is an incinerator? And do you know how many special weapons they can take per 5 men?
> 
> Also, are the points in the leaked codex right for henchmen servitors and acolytes? 20pts for plasma cannon, 10pt Heavy bolter, 9pt hot-shot lasguns, 14 point plasma guns?
> 
> Thanks so much for your help!!!


1.) same as the leaked codex
2.) for the henchmen they have the following (as much as i can remember)
(cant remember about the hotshot lasguns)
any wariror acolyte may replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with any of the following:
bolter 1pt
storm bolter 3pts
combi weapon -flamer,melta,plasma 10pts

up to 3 warroir acolytes my replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword with any of the following (yes one acolyte may take to options but only count as one out of the three):
metagun, plasma gun, flammer-10pts
plasma pistol, power sword - 15pts
storm shield - 20pts
power fist - 25pts

For the servitors:
Heavy bolter - free/5/10 pts 
multimelta - same as h/b
plasma cannon - either 10/15/20 (most expensive by about 5 or 10pts)
(for the servitors i did not spend more then two minutes on their rules so im not entirley sure)
Hope this helps, if any one has any info that they want answered write a list because this coming thursday i shoould get a long look at the codex at the things i didnt see so servitors and the henchmen abils. and by the way only the vindicare has infiltrate and the caldeus has polymorphen, so the other two aint lookin so good!!!


----------



## superwill

RedemptionNL said:


> They're the same as in the leaked dex, they just removed the teleporter option from the Strike Squad and made a Fast Attack entry with them. They still even have Warp Quake.


The same as in the leaked dex, including the additional cost to give them all teleporters?

edit: and are the paladins the same cost as in the leaked dex?


----------



## alex567

superwill said:


> The same as in the leaked dex, including the additional cost to give them all teleporters?
> 
> edit: and are the paladins the same cost as in the leaked dex?


the paladins are the same as in the leak dex yes.

oh and mad cow crazy, you do not have the brother hood banner on your list, if you want to include it, it has the following rules
Brotherhood banner: all models in the unit gain +1 attack and count as passing their leadership test automaticaly to activate their nemesis force weapons. (this still counts towards your psycic power though, for instance if you use hammerhand you cant use force weapon)


----------



## Keecai

How do the armour options for the acolytes look. Still over priced?


----------



## alex567

Keecai said:


> How do the armour options for the acolytes look. Still over priced?


well at 4 points a model for carapace armour and 10pts a model at power armour, its not changed, but what youve got to remember is who is writing the rules, he belevies that by giving a model power armour and a bolt gun makes it a marine but it doesnt, its the s4 t4 that does it so for 15pts a model for a guy with a boltgun and power armour may seem expensive, its 1 point less then a marine and its -1s -1t -1bs and -1ws, but do remember their weapon options 5pts less for a plasma gun, and they can take a chimera, so 3 guys in chimera at 24pts a model isnt bad considering you have 6 plasma gun shots a turn + if you take hot shots or boltguns or storm bolters, so its not that bad. But if i were you id take warrior acolytes as the guy that gets alocated that heavyflammer wound, so one per squad to alocate ap4 wound to other wise your 4+ save models are gonna become more cooked then a flame grilled chicken. also dont forget when that plasma gun over heats you dont wanna lose it, "SAVE A LIFE! INVEST IN POWER ARMOUR"!!! :victory:


----------



## superwill

alex567 said:


> the paladins are the same as in the leak dex yes.
> 
> oh and mad cow crazy, you do not have the brother hood banner on your list, if you want to include it, it has the following rules
> Brotherhood banner: all models in the unit gain +1 attack and count as passing their leadership test automaticaly to activate their nemesis force weapons. (this still counts towards your psycic power though, for instance if you use hammerhand you cant use force weapon)


awesome man. but sorry, i'm still not totally clear. so the interceptor squad costs the same as the leaked dex including the teleporter cost? so 130 points for a 5 man squad? thankyou so much!


----------



## alex567

superwill said:


> awesome man. sorry man, i'm still not totally clear. so the interceptor squad costs the same as the leaked dex including the teleporter cost? so 125 points for a 5 man squad? thankyou so much!


i Beleive so and dont mention it, no skin of my back, im here to help and support so when i find you at a tournement i know your armies HAHAHAHA!! no but seriously, wherever i can help!
And for the record all you people out their with a librarian he is:
150pts a model
pay an extra 50pts to make him mastery level 3 (3 powers a turn)
he can take any amount of powers for 5 points a power so he can have all the powers if you want him to, but he can only use one per turn per his mastery level. 

My next post will be the army list i am looking at using, but i will need your help to decide what other unit i should use?
but i cant double post so....


----------



## superwill

alex567 said:


> but i cant double post so....


so let me return the favour


----------



## alex567

superwill said:


> so let me return the favour


Thanks!!!
HQ
Castalen garren crowe
150pts

Elites/troops
10 purifiers 240pts
9 halberds 18pts
knight of the flame (free)
master crafted halberd 7pts
265pts

10 purifiers 240pts
9 halberds 18pts
knight of the flame (free)
master crafted halberd 7pts
265pts

fast attack
Storm raven gunship 205pts
twin linked plasma cannon free
typhoon missle launcher 25pts
hurricane bolters 30pts
260pts

Storm raven gunship 205pts
twin linked las cannon free
twin linked multi melta free
205pts

Ok guys so thats my list. (thanks agin superwill)
its 1145pts, the follwowing units are the ones i cannot decide which to use:

Librarian: 150pts
mastery level 3:50pts
might of the titan: 5pts
the summoning: 5pts
hammer hand: (cant remember if its auto power think it is)
not sure on weapon option (thinkin keep the normal weapon)
might give him termi armour.

10 purifiers 240pts
9 halberds 18pts
knight of the flame (free)
master crafted halberd 7pts
265pts

dreadknight: 130pts
psilencer (gatling): 35pts

purgiation squad: 200pts
4 psycannons: 80pts (20pts each)

intercepter squad: 260pts
2incinerators 30pts (dunno for intercepter squads)

ordo maleus inquisitor: 25pts
hell rifle: 15pts
arterficier armour: 15pts
(for funsies)

assasin vindicare: 145pts

lookin at libby at the moment!!


----------



## superwill

alex567 said:


> Thanks!!!
> HQ
> Castalen garren crowe
> 150pts
> 
> Elites/troops
> 10 purifiers 240pts
> 9 halberds 18pts
> knight of the flame (free)
> master crafted halberd 7pts
> 265pts
> 
> 10 purifiers 240pts
> 9 halberds 18pts
> knight of the flame (free)
> master crafted halberd 7pts
> 265pts
> 
> fast attack
> Storm raven gunship 205pts
> twin linked plasma cannon free
> typhoon missle launcher 25pts
> hurricane bolters 30pts
> 260pts
> 
> Storm raven gunship 205pts
> twin linked las cannon free
> twin linked multi melta free
> 205pts
> 
> Ok guys so thats my list. (thanks agin superwill)
> its 1145pts, the follwowing units are the ones i cannot decide which to use:
> 
> Librarian: 150pts
> mastery level 3:50pts
> might of the titan: 5pts
> the summoning: 5pts
> hammer hand: (cant remember if its auto power think it is)
> not sure on weapon option (thinkin keep the normal weapon)
> might give him termi armour.
> 
> 10 purifiers 240pts
> 9 halberds 18pts
> knight of the flame (free)
> master crafted halberd 7pts
> 265pts
> 
> dreadknight: 130pts
> psilencer (gatling): 35pts
> 
> purgiation squad: 200pts
> 4 psycannons: 80pts (20pts each)
> 
> intercepter squad: 260pts
> 2incinerators 30pts (dunno for intercepter squads)
> 
> ordo maleus inquisitor: 25pts
> hell rifle: 15pts
> arterficier armour: 15pts
> (for funsies)
> 
> assasin vindicare: 145pts
> 
> lookin at libby at the moment!!


Awesome man, looks good.

Have you thought of taking a couple of riflemen dreads when you raise the point level? Would mean you are only pushing vehicles around the table, so certain armies will get rolled. Plus a total of 8 TLAC shots at S8 and 48" range can deal alot of damage. More infantry would be good but if you have one unit out in the open and the rest inside stormravens they will just absorb the damage of whatever can't hurt vehicles.

But I'm no expert!


----------



## bitsandkits

so anything in the codex thats shouting 2nd wave release ?


----------



## alex567

superwill said:


> Awesome man, looks good.
> 
> Have you thought of taking a couple of riflemen dreads when you raise the point level? Would mean you are only pushing vehicles around the table, so certain armies will get rolled. Plus a total of 8 TLAC shots at S8 and 48" range can deal alot of damage. More infantry would be good but if you have one unit out in the open and the rest inside stormravens they will just absorb the damage of whatever can't hurt vehicles.




im thinkin more flammer dread if i do get one cause stormies can carry dreads, but the idea of the libby is to boost my squads s to 6 without removing their force weapon ability, and to teleport crowe when i get into the thick of it, might invest in the summoning on my ravens for that melta shot from one side of the bored to the other, but dreads might be my 1750 option 125pts a dread aint bad!



superwill said:


> But I'm no expert!


oh and dont worry no one has had chance to play test the new grey knights codex yet so most people dont know how each unit will work.



bitsandkits said:


> so anything in the codex thats shouting 2nd wave release ?


You mean like the blood angels? Well i think crowe isnt gonna be released on the 2nd cause hes not up for pre-order, but your lookin at probably the henchmen might to god be plastic but might not be, um theres not much realy, mordrak, valeria, thawn, mabe more inqiusitor models with more gear, but other then that not realy, mabe mordraks ghost knights


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

Quite nice list. In my opinion u may take psy-bolt ammunition for SR with hurricane bolters, and for the rest of the sqads (depends on point value). And qestion: if u take ZCastellan Crowe as HQ choice he must be IC or not, because it was told before that he isn't a IC choice....Back to the list You can take some Las/AC dread to improve some AV power


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> Quite nice list. In my opinion u may take psy-bolt ammunition for SR with hurricane bolters, and for the rest of the sqads (depends on point value). And qestion: if u take ZCastellan Crowe as HQ choice he must be IC or not, because it was told before that he isn't a IC choice....Back to the list You can take some Las/AC dread to improve some AV power


crowe is not an independant character, im gonna use the summening to get him close, but he is a hq, so i could potentialy stick him in a raven of his own. like the idea for the psybolts but my first priorety is the summoning and the libby, so points left over will go to bolts mabe to the squad without the libby becaue there not s6 in combat, but me an afriend rolled and the psybolt didnt make much difference.


----------



## Greymane

was just wondering if there are any other named characters in the new book, or just the ones that we all know about,


----------



## bitsandkits

alex567 said:


> You mean like the blood angels? Well i think crowe isnt gonna be released on the 2nd cause hes not up for pre-order, but your lookin at probably the henchmen might to god be plastic but might not be, um theres not much realy, mordrak, valeria, thawn, mabe more inqiusitor models with more gear, but other then that not realy, mabe mordraks ghost knights


what about the Jokero ? do they have any unit types?


----------



## alex567

bitsandkits said:


> what about the Jokero ? do they have any unit types?


i apologise but i do not understand what you mean? do you mean like can you give them different wargear?


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

Ok, but if you want to summon SR you must take Warp stabilisation field.. if I'm correct.

Summoning wit libby gives you a nice flexibility, but if you summon him he will not charge at the same turn.. because of DS rules of summoning. But idea of I6 S6 sqad is very nasty...especially with the cleansing flame... . Maby you should think about give libby a quicksilver to make sqad I10 and replace halberds for some falchions. Also good idea is to give libby some granades if there is such option


----------



## alex567

Greymane said:


> was just wondering if there are any other named characters in the new book, or just the ones that we all know about,


well i can write you a list, and tell me if you know about all of them id you want?
so here it is:
Lord kaldor draigo
Grand master Mordrak
Brother captain stern
Castellan crowe (my personal favourite)
inquisitor torquemander corteaz
inquisitor karazmarov
inquisitor valeria
Justicare anval thawn



Aegir Einarsson said:


> Ok, but if you want to summon SR you must take Warp stabilisation field.. if I'm correct.
> 
> Summoning wit libby gives you a nice flexibility, but if you summon him he will not charge at the same turn.. because of DS rules of summoning. But idea of I6 S6 sqad is very nasty...especially with the cleansing flame... . Maby you should think about give libby a quicksilver to make sqad I10 and replace halberds for some falchions. Also good idea is to give libby some granades if there is such option


My friend is also doing a grey knight list and he is taking a vindicare, so if my libby gets snipped in shooting or cambat i lose my high initiative, i think two attacks a piece any way should be enough+cleansing flame and strength 6 i 6 should be enough, the libby can focus on army support and moving stuff about quickly, i may give him vortex of doom, crowe aint gonna do anything but run across the bord and get shot by weapons that cant hurt my storm ravens so i may aswell hide him and keep him alive, im not fussed about him not being able to charge, for the fact that the libby and the 20 purifiers can cover him.


----------



## bitsandkits

alex567 said:


> i apologise but i do not understand what you mean? do you mean like can you give them different wargear?


I will rephrase it, are there any unit entries in the codex that dont have kits available for them at the moment?or after the April release?


----------



## Winterous

bitsandkits said:


> I will rephrase it, are there any unit entries in the codex that dont have kits available for them at the moment?or after the April release?


Only characters, pretty sure.
Almost all the SCs, and no other HQ unit has a specific model; they'll possibly release a Grey Knight HQ kit, with parts to make a Bro-Cap/GMaster or a Librarian.
I think the Brotherhood Champion or whatever is in Power armour, so I think that's up for a metal model or two, since there's not much you can change about him anyway.

Also Henchmen, a fair few of the options don't have models available, but some of them vary so much that they're easily converted.
The Jokaero will almost definitely be 2nd wave, since they've already done the model; there's a picture in the codex itself.


----------



## alex567

bitsandkits said:


> I will rephrase it, are there any unit entries in the codex that dont have kits available for them at the moment?or after the April release?


ok the only kit that doesnt have one is mordraks knights and mordrak himself, so either green termies painted like lotr ghosts instead of paladins, there isnt a mordrak model or a thawn model so mabe they will do a character release with a grey knight pack that includes more weapons mabe, so 4 halbeards 4 two swords 4 hamers 1 incin 2 psycannons and a psilencer would be cool, but other then that i dont see any units, plastic henchmen?, hope to god they do


----------



## Greymane

thank you alex567, not sure how to quote, but thanks for the info


----------



## alex567

Greymane said:


> thank you alex567, not sure how to quote, but thanks for the info


no prob to quote look at the persons comment then in the bottom right hand corner there should be a button that sais quote, click it and the quote will come up ina message box, then type your stuff and your away


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

OK I didn't know that you will play against GK Vindi will be a problem i guess. But I still think that granades will be a good option. Maby Flamestorm cannon with AP3 is a good option against MEQ? Summon dreadknight and burn them


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> OK I didn't know that you will play against GK Vindi will be a problem i guess. But I still think that granades will be a good option. Maby Flamestorm cannon with AP3 is a good option against MEQ? Summon dreadknight and burn them


well for about a week itll be grey knights until the person who has the better army at my local workshop prevails and every one else reverts back to their old armies, for me it would be my awsome guard which i love (if i lose) so its a win win realy either way.


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

Of course fun fun uber alls, I've PM you i'll be pleased if you can answer me


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> Of course fun fun uber alls, I've PM you i'll be pleased if you can answer me


oh sorry wasnt paying attention


----------



## MadCowCrazy

bitsandkits said:


> so anything in the codex thats shouting 2nd wave release ?


From the rumours going around the Jokaero and Crowe will be released on the 16th of April, if there are more than this I dont know. These two are all I've seen rumoured so far. Maybe Valeria but GW dont make many female space marines because they prefer men...

Not sure what would be left except for Henchmen and a few HQs.
Metal henchmen just sucks balls though, then again there is no better way to do it cheaply...


----------



## boreas

MadCowCrazy said:


> Metal henchmen just sucks balls though, then
> again there is no better way to do it cheaply...


Am I the only only that finds this quote very funny when taken out of context?

:shok:

Phil


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

Hehehe You are not the only one..... besides you can't do it by yourself and that would be cheapest way, you must do it by henchman


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> Hehehe You are not the only one..... besides you can't do it by yourself and that would be cheapest way, you must do it by henchman


ever heard of getting a rib removed? you can become the henchmen that way! :grin:

also if you bought the fantacy flagelents, raided your bits box and found some green stuff then you could make some nice henchmen, its all about combining kits

the first is a mix of kroot with necron heads
the second is the fantacy flagelant kits with extra stuff
the thired is more converted flagelents
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/3122766839_7e1d8e0b29.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3214/3122778417_9deddc0057.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/3122779969_f91fc2d739.jpg


----------



## hungryugolino

Flagellants are all very very well and good, but don't forget the guardsmen bitz, dark eldar (wych legs would make good gangers), or even fantasy chaos bitz for daemonhosts.

None of this makes up for the fact that Ward ruined daemonhunters, though.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Holy shit those are cool.


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> Flagellants are all very very well and good, but don't forget the guardsmen bitz, dark eldar (wych legs would make good gangers), or even fantasy chaos bitz for daemonhosts.
> 
> None of this makes up for the fact that Ward ruined daemonhunters, though.


he didnt ruin it entirly there are some realy good rules their, the problem with matt ward is he doesnt do the research before hand and makes it up as he goes along, alot like me, accept i do it well. :biggrin:


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> None of this makes up for the fact that Ward ruined daemonhunters, though.


Er, how? This book has basically all the options of the old book and then some.


----------



## Jezlad

The next fuckwit that starts advertising and sharing the illegal PDF file on these boards gets permabanned from the site.


----------



## alex567

wow i think i singal handedly killed this forum,


----------



## dakem_the_great

what do u think about the landraider cursader with psybolt ammo? worth it?

do the hurricane bolters still count as defensive weapons?


----------



## Katie Drake

dakem_the_great said:


> what do u think about the landraider cursader with psybolt ammo? worth it?
> 
> do the hurricane bolters still count als defensive weapons?


They don't and that's why psybolt ammunition is actually bad for hurricane bolters as well as pintle storm bolters.


----------



## alex567

dakem_the_great said:


> what do u think about the landraider cursader with psybolt ammo? worth it?
> 
> do the hurricane bolters still count als defensive weapons?


no cause theyre s 5 now with psybolt ammo


----------



## MadCowCrazy

dakem_the_great said:


> what do u think about the landraider cursader with psybolt ammo? worth it?
> 
> do the hurricane bolters still count als defensive weapons?


Since they would be S5 they would no longer be defensive weapons. Not sure if you have to take it for all weapons though, maybe you could put it on assault cannon but not use it for hurricane bolters? This would mean you'd have the choice to choose between using it or not and I dont think you can do that.


----------



## hungryugolino

Katie Drake said:


> Er, how? This book has basically all the options of the old book and then some.


Oh, let's see. Grey Knights had their fluff ruined (not to mention models), points costs are silly, assassins got neutered, stormtroopers are gone altogether, and you're completely unable to play the Inquisition proper without taking Coteaz. That's just idiotic. Oh, and the dreadshit.

And the Radical option's been essentially wiped out to boot. Henchmen are, at best, bootleg versions of the old daemonhunters.


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> Oh, let's see. Grey Knights had their fluff ruined (not to mention models), points costs are silly, assassins got neutered, stormtroopers are gone altogether, and you're completely unable to play the Inquisition proper without taking Coteaz. That's just idiotic. Oh, and the dreadshit.
> 
> And the Radical option's been essentially wiped out to boot. Henchmen are, at best, bootleg versions of the old daemonhunters.


dude stop this rage stuff no one realy cares just sit back enjoy the nice models and stop hating matt ward.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

alex567 said:


> dude stop this rage stuff no one realy cares just sit back enjoy the nice models and stop hating matt ward.


To be fair, it is quite hard not to hate Matt Ward, on account of his completely fucking up everything he touches.


----------



## alex567

normtheunsavoury said:


> To be fair, it is quite hard not to hate Matt Ward, on account of his completely fucking up everything he touches.


but the list is quite well balanced any horde army is gonna beat them unless you take the more expensive unit meaning that every casulty is gonna count.


----------



## hungryugolino

alex567 said:


> dude stop this rage stuff no one realy cares just sit back enjoy the nice models and stop hating matt ward.


Wrong on all fronts. Quite a few people seem to have issues with this new release, the models have problems, (I'm mostly annoyed with the details; it wouldn't have been that hard to fix the arms and storm bolter feeds, would it?), and nothing short of a lobotomy is likely to make Matt Ward less unlikable.

It's hard to express goodwill towards someone when they've botched some of your favorite fluff and units.


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> Wrong on all fronts. Quite a few people seem to have issues with this new release, the models have problems, (I'm mostly annoyed with the details; it wouldn't have been that hard to fix the arms and storm bolter feeds, would it?), and nothing short of a lobotomy is likely to make Matt Ward less unlikable.
> 
> It's hard to express goodwill towards someone when they've botched some of your favorite fluff and units.


hows about you try writing a balanced codex, after only finishing another codex about a year before, making a balanced list with alot of units, reading EVERYONES perspective of the fluff, making the models, and trying to keep everyone happy at the same time. alot of the matt ward hatred i thnk comes from the smurths, which he was toild to write about by gw so its your choice to hate him, but just think its not easy for him.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I haven't read the new fluff so I cant comment on that.

If you dont like the models use the old ones, I've got tons I'm willing to trade for the new plastic ones on a 1 for 1 basis.

Assassins are brought more in line with 5ed, I'm betting you whine because Eversor doesn't explode and Callidus lost "A word in your ear" and C'Tan sword is now just a pw weapon that causes instant death. Other than those they have only received upgrades, better stats, better wargear and you can bring more than 1 assassin in your army. They are a niche unit, always have been and probably always will be.

You can still create stormtroops through the henchmen system, BS3 mind you but similar in every other regard to what you had in the Daemonhunters codex.

You are right about not being able to play Inquisition properly without Coteaz but atleast it's an option and you can create pretty much anything you like thanks to him.

Dreadknight is a bit silly I agree, that's why I've ordered 3 

I do think it sucks you have lost the Radical/Puritan part, as I play a Radical army it's sad to see it go.

Henchmen are by far a million times better than the shit you had in the old DH codex. Your DH henchmen were too expensive, sucked really badly and you didn't have that many options. Now you can create pretty much anything you like. 3-12 of the same is possible now and you can make them really OP by putting Coteaz with them and a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad grenades.

Take 12 Arco, Death Cult or Crusaders, have Coteaz pop Hammerhand and the arcos would now have WS5 S6 and A5 on the charge, death cult would be WS5 S5 with 4pw attacks on the charge, crusaders would be WS4 S5, 2 attacks on the charge but with storm shields and pw.
Rad would give -1 to your opponents toughness so you would hit SM on 3+ and wound on 2+ with arcos, 3+ and 3+ with no saves with death cult and crusaders would hit on 4+ wound on 3+ and no save.
Heck change the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor for a Librarian and give them I10 another +1S as it cumulative with Hammerhand.

There are so many nasty combinations you can do now that you couldn't even comprehend with the old dex.
Hotshot-lasgun wielding dudes for 9 points each Id take over the old Storm Troopers any day.


----------



## alex567

MadCowCrazy said:


> I haven't read the new fluff so I cant comment on that.
> 
> If you dont like the models use the old ones, I've got tons I'm willing to trade for the new plastic ones on a 1 for 1 basis.
> 
> Assassins are brought more in line with 5ed, I'm betting you whine because Eversor doesn't explode and Callidus lost "A word in your ear" and C'Tan sword is now just a pw weapon that causes instant death. Other than those they have only received upgrades, better stats, better wargear and you can bring more than 1 assassin in your army. They are a niche unit, always have been and probably always will be.
> 
> You can still create stormtroops through the henchmen system, BS3 mind you but similar in every other regard to what you had in the Daemonhunters codex.
> 
> You are right about not being able to play Inquisition properly without Coteaz but atleast it's an option and you can create pretty much anything you like thanks to him.
> 
> Dreadknight is a bit silly I agree, that's why I've ordered 3
> 
> I do think it sucks you have lost the Radical/Puritan part, as I play a Radical army it's sad to see it go.
> 
> Henchmen are by far a million times better than the shit you had in the old DH codex. Your DH henchmen were too expensive, sucked really badly and you didn't have that many options. Now you can create pretty much anything you like. 3-12 of the same is possible now and you can make them really OP by putting Coteaz with them and a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad grenades.
> 
> Take 12 Arco, Death Cult or Crusaders, have Coteaz pop Hammerhand and the arcos would now have WS5 S6 and A5 on the charge, death cult would be WS5 S5 with 4pw attacks on the charge, crusaders would be WS4 S5, 2 attacks on the charge but with storm shields and pw.
> Rad would give -1 to your opponents toughness so you would hit SM on 3+ and wound on 2+ with arcos, 3+ and 3+ with no saves with death cult and crusaders would hit on 4+ wound on 3+ and no save.
> Heck change the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor for a Librarian and give them I10 another +1S as it cumulative with Hammerhand.
> 
> There are so many nasty combinations you can do now that you couldn't even comprehend with the old dex.
> Hotshot-lasgun wielding dudes for 9 points each Id take over the old Storm Troopers any day.


well said  probably the most sensible person ive met on my time this forum well tied with katie, but none the less this shows how great the codex can be. :clapping:


----------



## hungryugolino

alex567 said:


> hows about you try writing a balanced codex, after only finishing another codex about a year before, making a balanced list with alot of units, reading EVERYONES perspective of the fluff, making the models, and trying to keep everyone happy at the same time. alot of the matt ward hatred i thnk comes from the smurths, which he was toild to write about by gw so its your choice to hate him, but just think its not easy for him.


I'm sorry, but the codex isn't balanced, the fluff is appalling by any sane measure (Would it have been hard to simply not write the nonsensical portions? Making Grey Knights 1000? Why, other than his fanboy-ism?)

Above all, Matt Ward definitely can be blamed for certain things. Things like "SPIRITUAL LIEGE" and the gushing over certain characters. Other recent codexes have far superior writing, so it's definitely not because of pressure from above.

Face it, Matt Ward's an idiot.

P.S.
Dirt-cheap stormtroopers without their uniquer aspects is completely missing the point. And forcing you to take Coteaz to do a non-Knight army is idiotic beyond words.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hungryugolino said:


> it wouldn't have been that hard to fix the arms and storm bolter feeds, would it?).


If you look at the sprues all the storm bolter clips actually have to be glued in place on the PAGK, the TAGK have ammo boxes and look pretty cool in my opinion.

Dont like it? Buy the old models or make your own...

We heard the exact same thing about the new Dark Eldar even though they were allot better than the old ones. No matter what your opinion about the new models are no one is forcing you to buy them and GW wont change them just because you dont like them. Vote with your wallet and simply dont buy them or buy the old ones if you like them better.


----------



## dakem_the_great

jeah i had hoped the check for defensive weapon was before the power upgrade.

Its kinda strange this way, but okay.


----------



## Deus Mortis

I actually prefer the new PAGK's to the old ones. Not sure on the TAGK, but I'm sure once I have some in my hands I'll be content!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hungryugolino said:


> P.S.
> Dirt-cheap stormtroopers without their uniquer aspects is completely missing the point. And forcing you to take Coteaz to do a non-Knight army is idiotic beyond words.


I'm looking at the IST entry in my DH codex right now and I can't see what's "uniquer" about them. They have the shitty hellgun S3 AP5, it does have a Targeter so you can premeasure. They could take flamer, melta, plasma or grenade launcher and take krak grenades. IST Veteran could take DH armour gear though.

The new ones can get Boltgun, Stormbolter, Hot-shot lasgun, 3 can take combi- flamer, melta or plasma or a regular flamer, melta or plasma, power sword or plasma pistol, storm shield, power fist, carapace or power armour and melta bombs.

So they "new ones" lost their Targeter so they can't premeasure, they lost the option to take grenade launchers, lost the Hellgun, lost the option to take krak grenades, lost 1BS and the ability to take a Rhino as a transport.

The only "uniquer" part about the old IST was the Targeter, what else do they have that so good you'd rather take them over the new Warrior Acolytes?


----------



## OrdoMalleus

Wait a minute, You can now take more daemohosts, more assasins, far better and cheaper retinues, far more flexible ISTs and the Inqs can take daemon weapons....How has the radical side been nerfed?

@Alex567: Id take those points costs down sharpish before someone sees........ (against forum rules)


----------



## alex567

OrdoMalleus said:


> Wait a minute, You can now take more daemohosts, more assasins, far better and cheaper retinues, far more flexible ISTs and the Inqs can take daemon weapons....How has the radical side been nerfed?
> 
> @Alex567: Id take those points costs down sharpish before someone sees........ (against forum rules)


 ah didnt know that i apologise, can someone send me a link to the forum rules page. ill repost the link without the points, its just what i copy and pasted from my word document so i apologise. am i allowed to post my list without points costs? so just the unit names?


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> Oh, let's see. Grey Knights had their fluff ruined (not to mention models), points costs are silly, assassins got neutered, stormtroopers are gone altogether, and you're completely unable to play the Inquisition proper without taking Coteaz. That's just idiotic. Oh, and the dreadshit.
> 
> And the Radical option's been essentially wiped out to boot. Henchmen are, at best, bootleg versions of the old daemonhunters.


Dude, you're delusional. 

Ruined fluff. Okay, I'll admit Draigo is a walking fluff abomination, it's absolutely 100% true. Other than him I'm not seeing it.

Want to be more specific about which point costs are silly?

_Some_ Assassins were made worse, some better. The Callidus has changed for the worse, I admit, but I think the Eversor, Culexus and especially the Vindicare are better.

Stormtroopers were stupid anyway and if you're dead set on using them, use Henchmen with carapace armor and hotshot lasguns.

So... because Coteaz is required to unlock a specific army build (like every other 5th edition book and some 4th edition ones too) it's some sort of abomination? Seriously, if I played Daemonhunters I'd be worshipping the new Codex right now. Anything to do away with awful, outdated 3rd edition crap.

I'm not entirely sure how it's impossible to play Radicals now btw.

I mean, we have Henchmen who are probably the single most versatile unit in the entire game as our brick, whereas other units are more like the mortar (see what I did there?).

Let's see. What did you include in your Radicals list before, just out of curiosity? I'm gonna make a few assumptions.

HQ

Coteaz. Rename him to be whoever you want. He has lots of psychic powers and stuff, he's pretty versatile.

Another Inquisitor, either named or not. Or a Brotherhood Champion to represent a Deathwatch Kill Marine (read Fantasy Flight's Rites of Battle supplement to Deathwatch if you aren't sure what a Kill Marine is).

Troops

Henchmen of a zillion different kinds. Want Arco-Flagellants? You can have them. Want Daemonhosts? You can have them. Want Death Cult Assassins? Have 'em. How about counts-as Battle Sisters? Sure, you can have those. Arbites? Go for it. Jokaero? Enjoy! Stormtroopers? We have an app for that.

Elites

Techmarine, can be a Tech Priest, renegade or not depending how far your Inquisitor has fallen.

Venerable Dreadnought - Counts-as Deathwatch Dreadnought. Yes, those do exist. If Deathwatch aren't your thing, go with some sort of ancient contraption that your Inquisitor discovered, perhaps with help of the Tech Priest mentioned above.

All the Assassins are fine to use so that four choices right there.

Fast Attack

Stormraven counts-as an Inquisitorial Valkyrie with basically no imagination.

Heavy Support

Dreadnought - As Venerable Dreadnought.

Land Raider - Inquisitorial Land Raider



hungryugolino said:


> It's hard to express goodwill towards someone when they've botched some of your favorite fluff and units.


You have nothing to complain about. When you own three Chaos armies and then get blindsided by the Chaos Space Marine Codex let me know because then you'll have room to complain.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

You need to think about it like this, if what you post can be used to play the game without the actual codex then you are breaking the forum rules. Thinks like stats, unit names, weapon names and all the different things they do are fine since without knowing the points cost you can't actually play with them.

This is why you see when people create army lists a total points cost rather than a points cost per unit. There is leniency here and there but for an as of yet unreleased codex I would stay away from posting unit costs.

The points cost of a flamer here and a plasma gun there doesn't matter much but if you start posting copy paste points cost and items directly from the codex we could get in serious trouble for it.


----------



## alex567

MadCowCrazy said:


> You need to think about it like this, if what you post can be used to play the game without the actual codex then you are breaking the forum rules. Thinks like stats, unit names, weapon names and all the different things they do are fine since without knowing the points cost you can't actually play with them.
> 
> This is why you see when people create army lists a total points cost rather than a points cost per unit. There is leniency here and there but for an as of yet unreleased codex I would stay away from posting unit costs.
> 
> The points cost of a flamer here and a plasma gun there doesn't matter much but if you start posting copy paste points cost and items directly from the codex we could get in serious trouble for it.


why thank you!!! that helps clear up alot.
well any way i gots a list that is so many points it goes a little bit like this:
Crowe.
Librarian,Mastery level 3, Nemesis force halberd, The summoning, Might of titan.
10 purifiers, 10 nemesis force halberds, Master crafted.
10 purifiers, 10 nemesis force halberds, Master crafted.
Storm raven, Twin-linked plasma cannon:, Typhoon missile launcher, Hurricane bolters:, Warp stabilisation.
Storm raven, Twin linked lascannon, Multimelta, Warp stabilisation.
Dreadnought, Assault cannon, Psybolt ammo.
 thats the idea i got.


----------



## alex567

Frank Fugger said:


> If you want to know just how truly, ridiculously poor the new Codex is, imagine you have selected an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor as your HQ, and have bought for him a Daemonblade. Now imagine you are rolling up the two Daemonblade powers, and you roll first a 10, then a 2. Or an 11 and then a 5. Consult the table; consult it now, and know fail.


That +3 strength and the fact that he is now poisend, so he can re-roll failed wound roles because his strength is gonne be equal to or higher then their toughness, but yeah the other one is bad.


----------



## monrac

Damm... Mordrak is worse in final codex than leaked one. 
The Ghost terminators unit are limited only to five, cost equal than regular terminator and the stealth hability has gone.....
buaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

monrac said:


> Damm... Mordrak is worse in final codex than leaked one.
> The Ghost terminators unit are limited only to five, cost equal than regular terminator and the stealth hability has gone.....
> buaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...


And they cost more points. HOWEVER! I still love them and will play them. There are just so many different styles you can play with the new Codex:
- Deep Strike List with Mordrak
- Paladin List with Draigo
- Purifier-Stormraven Lists with Crowe
- Shooting Lists with Dreads, Purgation-Squads and Tech Marines

and many more....


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, Frank Fugger's pretty much said my piece for me. Thanks, Frank! 
On that note:

Coteaz- fixed wargear, bit pricey for simply not playing Grey Marines, very little (read: no) customization
Another Inquisitor, either named or not. Or a Brotherhood Champion to represent a Deathwatch Kill Marine- No. That's a poor representation of a Kill Marine. I have no interest in Ordos Xenos, but if I was trying to make a Kill-marine out of that, it fails. Psyker suicide bomber does not a Kill marine make.

Henchmen: And like the Apple apps, it's shit that only works within a very narrow system. They exist. Kudos to Ward, he didn't remove them entirely! Give the fat frakker a hand! Daemonhosts are piss-poor, Battle Sisters are guardsmen in power armour without the optional toys like grenades, Arbites were done better in WH, Jokaero are about Ward's only decent idea and still OP (not to mention just a bit out of place, but that's a detail...) Stormtroopers are Chinese bootleg brands: the quality's low, they're missing important bits, and generally only work as counts-as. Ward should have copy-pasted Guardsmen stormies in, points and all.

Techmarine: hahhahhahaa oh wow. Techmarines =/= Tech-priests, and it really is stretching counts-as to do that. Also, why give them to GK? Why? Give them a Chaplain instead, as someone else suggested!

Venerable Dreadnought - I'll concede that; good work, Ward! You didn't remove one of the cool bits of Grey Knights, probably because Forge World already made a model for it.

Assassins are shit; see above.

Stormraven is a storm raven. It's a mediocre counts-as at best, but it's not horrible for what it is. 

In short, Matt Ward dropped the ball even more than his norm on this one. We'd have been better off with the daemonhunters codex until someone competent and with a decent grasp of the setting was brought in to write it. See also: Dark Eldar


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Katie Drake said:


> We have an app for that.


Love it!

I'm excited about the new codex, if things can stabilize for me, and I can get time to start working on my armies again (work has been terrible for the last year or so, my schedule changes weekly), I'm going to have to create soooo many freakshows.

Jokaero army...made from gnobblars like my flying monkey for my Sisters of OZ, or maybe something a bit bigger as they are orangutans the blister packed metal model is gonna be too pricey for my tastes I think...60 of them or more...I've already spent too much on sisters. Cyber Gorrilla made from Corteaz?

I'll revamp the Sisters of OZ, GK base army with sisters as allies I'm thinking...as long as they are a "space marine variant" 

Alpha Legion, Cultists and teleporters(stealthy legioneers) and Assassin marines...(need to read the book and fluff again, been awhile)

Mechanicus, Servitors as far as the eye can see, dreadknights for the various constructs, librarians/inquisitors as tech-priests...make up techno babble to replace psychic powers. Skattarri henchmen.

Rogue inquisitor- Daemonhosts and arco flagellents(or minor demons count as?) everywhere.

Now who will volunteer to pay for all this?


----------



## Logyn

Frank Fugger said:


> Wall of Text bashing the new henchmen.


A couple things you failed to mention: 

Deathcult assassins are probably point-for-point one of the killiest CC units in the codex. Arco's and Crusaders fit right in as being nasty melee as well. 

If shooting is your thing, Jokeros, Servitors with multimeltas or plasma cannons, and warrior acolytes with anything from melta guns to bolters are pretty ace.
The jokero bonuses can be really good too. Rending storm bolters? yikes.

The loss of stormtroopers is a little sad, yes. Warrior acolytes can try to replace them, i suppose.

Also notice that you can have dudes with a bolter and carpace armor for 9 points a model. I hear a bolter is better than a lasgun, but maybe I was misinformed :biggrin:

The sky is not falling. Promise. It's not the same, but it still clings to most of the old stuff, and if you break it down with what is now available the new kids on the block are pretty solid.

Radicals are still quite possible with a little imagination, and you have more than a few stormtroopers to work with. 


On a separate note, I'm not really sure why so many people dislike the Dreadknight model. It isn't boxy like the rest of the space marine stuff, but it's alot more like a knight titan or some-such, and it is sort of shaped like power armor if you think about it. Look at it as an oversized suit of armor and not a vehicle, and I think it fits in just fine. 
Ah well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I know I'll be snagging one.


----------



## hungryugolino

You do realize the last three are a bad joke with the new dex?

Psyker Alpha Legion with storm bolters? Nope.
Mechanicus? Oh dear, your Skitarii can't shoot straight. This actually is meh, but the last dex did it better.
Rogue Inquisitor: still has to have a hammer because Ward says so, daemonhosts are even worse than before, and Radicals generally got shafted by new dex.

In short, best of luck, but you'd be better off using Imperial Guard or fleeing to Witchhunters while it's still usable for this sort of thing.


----------



## genesis80

Just a question for those who have seen the dex (sorry if this has been answered before, since this IS a pretty long thread). What are the differences between a paladin and the "normal termi battle brother" aside from the 2 Wounds?
Can each paladin take a special weapon or heavy weapon or something? Or some special Inv save? 
What are their squad sizes compared to the "normal termi battle brother" squad? Any difference?


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> Coteaz- fixed wargear, bit pricey for simply not playing Grey Marines, very little (read: no) customization


This is 5th edition. Characters have fixed wargear. What do you expect?



> Another Inquisitor, either named or not. Or a Brotherhood Champion to represent a Deathwatch Kill Marine- No. That's a poor representation of a Kill Marine. I have no interest in Ordos Xenos, but if I was trying to make a Kill-marine out of that, it fails. Psyker suicide bomber does not a Kill marine make.


It's a fine representation of a Kill Marine for tabletop 40K. It doesn't have the depth of 40K Roleplay, but if you're looking for that sort of depth then you're playing the wrong game.



> Daemonhosts are piss-poor


It's true, but I was more coming at it from a fluff point of view, not a "this is a competitive choice" point of view.



> Jokaero are about Ward's only decent idea and still OP (not to mention just a bit out of place, but that's a detail...)


lol what the fuck? What about the Jokaero is overpowered? Please tell me you're joking.



> Stormtroopers are Chinese bootleg brands: the quality's low, they're missing important bits, and generally only work as counts-as. Ward should have copy-pasted Guardsmen stormies in, points and all.


Then you'd complain about how they're not 10 points each with excellent stats and access to super cheap special weapons and so on.



> Techmarine: hahhahhahaa oh wow. Techmarines =/= Tech-priests, and it really is stretching counts-as to do that. Also, why give them to GK? Why? Give them a Chaplain instead, as someone else suggested!


I fail to see how a Techmarine is a poor representation of a Tech Priest. Again, this isn't 40K Roleplay. Stats only go from 1-10, it's extremely difficult to accurately represent anything perfectly in 40k tabletop. You work with what you've got, or you bitch on forums. As for the Chaplain thing I actually agree, though I suppose the Brotherhood Champion is sort of supposed to fill that niche to an extent.



> Assassins are shit; see above.


I disagree, but whatever.



> Stormraven is a storm raven. It's a mediocre counts-as at best, but it's not horrible for what it is.


Mediocre... man, you have unrealistically high standards for your counts-as.



> In short, Matt Ward dropped the ball even more than his norm on this one. We'd have been better off with the daemonhunters codex until someone competent and with a decent grasp of the setting was brought in to write it. See also: Dark Eldar


Yeah, totally. I mean, how dare Matt Ward write a Grey Knight Codex that mainly features _Grey Knights_! What nerve he has to ensure that the group who the Codex is named for are the stars of the show. Who does he think he is to write a Codex with a wide range of possible builds that's full of options for competitive and casual gamers alike? Clearly he's a scourge upon GW and the earth itself.


----------



## hungryugolino

Logyn said:


> A couple things you failed to mention:
> 
> Deathcult assassins are probably point-for-point one of the killiest CC units in the codex. Arco's and Crusaders fit right in as being nasty melee as well.
> 
> If shooting is your thing, Jokeros, Servitors with multimeltas or plasma cannons, and warrior acolytes with anything from melta guns to bolters are pretty ace.
> The jokero bonuses can be really good too. Rending storm bolters? yikes.
> 
> The loss of stormtroopers is a little sad, yes. Warrior acolytes can try to replace them, i suppose.
> 
> Also notice that you can have dudes with a bolter and carpace armor for 9 points a model. I hear a bolter is better than a lasgun, but maybe I was misinformed :biggrin:
> 
> The sky is not falling. Promise. It's not the same, but it still clings to most of the old stuff, and if you break it down with what is now available the new kids on the block are pretty solid.
> 
> Radicals are still quite possible with a little imagination, and you have more than a few stormtroopers to work with.
> 
> 
> On a separate note, I'm not really sure why so many people dislike the Dreadknight model. It isn't boxy like the rest of the space marine stuff, but it's alot more like a knight titan or some-such, and it is sort of shaped like power armor if you think about it. Look at it as an oversized suit of armor and not a vehicle, and I think it fits in just fine.
> Ah well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I know I'll be snagging one.


Okay, here goes.

Assassins and Crusaders are acceptable.

Servitors have mindlock, and warriors shoot like stormtroopers (the irony...)

Stormtrooper loss is what really makes this new codex bad. It means this is a very poor general inquisition dex, and a typical Ward one for Grey Knights.

Counts-as is imagination. Trying to piece a list back together from what's left after Matt Ward's violated it is an exercise in futility.

Dreadnight: does not look 40k, an even uglier rip off of several generic mecha, and the pilot design is exceptionally poorly thought-out. I'd say something unflattering about Matt Ward, but he's unlikely to behind this abomination. Who designed these new Knights, anyway?


----------



## hungryugolino

Just when I think you can't make any less sense, you manage to surprise me. Well done! 



Katie Drake said:


> This is 5th edition. Characters have fixed wargear. What do you expect?


A decent option for a daemonhunters army. Note the "daemonhunters". That will be relevant shortly.



> It's a fine representation of a Kill Marine for tabletop 40K. It doesn't have the depth of 40K Roleplay, but if you're looking for that sort of depth then you're playing the wrong game.


Not sold on that, but I disagree. The old units had enough depth. These ones don't match enough.



> lol what the fuck? What about the Jokaero is overpowered? Please tell me you're joking.





> Then you'd complain about how they're not 10 points each with excellent stats and access to super cheap special weapons and so on.


Cool fallacy, bro.




> I fail to see how a Techmarine is a poor representation of a Tech Priest. Again, this isn't 40K Roleplay. Stats only go from 1-10, it's extremely difficult to accurately represent anything perfectly in 40k tabletop. You work with what you've got, or you bitch on forums. As for the Chaplain thing I actually agree, though I suppose the Brotherhood Champion is sort of supposed to fill that niche to an extent.


Marine. Tech-priest. One's in Codex: Space Marines. The other's in Codex: Imperial Guard. Compare the two, then come back. They're far too different for one to accurate represent the other. For one thing, fluff-wise, Tech-priests generally don't wear power armour.



> Mediocre... man, you have unrealistically high standards for your counts-as.


I expect that if Matt Ward, in his wisdom, decides to remove a unit, he will give a decent replacement that's close enough for counts-as.




> Yeah, totally. I mean, how dare Matt Ward write a Grey Knight Codex that mainly features _Grey Knights_! What nerve he has to ensure that the group who the Codex is named for are the stars of the show. Who does he think he is to write a Codex with a wide range of possible builds that's full of options for competitive and casual gamers alike? Clearly he's a scourge upon GW and the earth itself.


No options for Daemonhunters. As there is a Grey Knights dex, there will not be a daemonhunters dex. Therefore, he should take steps to accomodate daemonhunter armies, BECAUSE HE'S JUST INVALIDATED ALL OF THEM.

He's certainly a scourge on Warhammer 40k, if only because his fluff reeks to high heaven.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Frank Fugger said:


> He also lost an average of 3" off his charge range, his wounds-on 4+ Neuro Gauntlet is now a Lightning Claw, and in place of all this he gained 6+ FNP and Fleet.
> So he now better? or am I missing something?
> 
> You mean the Callidus has been whacked with the nerfbat.
> Hmm, I guess your view on nerfs isn't the same as mine. She lost some fluffy wargear but that's about it
> 
> Name one thing that is better about any Assassin compared to their previous iteration, other than the Vindicare.
> OLD WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 LD10 4++
> IC, Fearless, Infiltrate
> New
> NEW WS 8 BS8 S4 T4 W2 I7 A4 LD10 4++
> FNP on 6, Move Through Cover, Fearless, Fleet, FRAG GRENADES!
> 
> OLD Culexus
> Etherium : Pass LD on 2D6 to shoot or assault Culexus or target with psychic power.
> Animus Speculum 12" S5 Ap1 Assault 1, +1 for every psyker withing 12"
> Psyk-Out Grenades : Instead of shooting throw grenade, if psyker hit has to pass LD on 2D6, lose wounds for each over LD rolled.
> Special Rules
> Psychic Abomination : Psykers within 6" pass LD or fall back
> Soulless : All within 12" have LD7 unless normally lower
> Psyker Assassin : Can always target psykers with shooting and in assault
> Life Drain : Assassin and Psykers roll 2D6 and add LD, if Assassin has higher psyker loses 1 wound with no save allowed.
> 
> New Culexus
> Psyk-Out Grenades : Daemons and Psykers have I1 in assault
> Psyocculum : BS10 When shooting Psykers or units with Psykers
> Animus Speculm 12" S5 Ap1 Assault 2, +1 for every psyker within 12"
> Etherium : Pass LD on 3D6 to shoot or target with psyhic power.
> 
> Differences :
> +3WS +3BS +2I +1A
> Old LD to shoot was 2D6 but took soulless into consideration, new one is 3D6 to counter loss of Soulless. Can now assault regardless.
> +1 shot to Animus Speculum standard profile.
> Psyk-Out grenades do different things now. You can't claim old one was uber useful since you never fielding a Culexus anyways.
> Gained BS10 vs Psykers or units with Psykers.
> Lost Soulless, Psyker Assassin, and Life Drain
> 
> Callidus
> New Stats : +3WS +3BS +2I +1A
> C'tan Phase Sword
> Old : No saves of any kind vs attacks
> New : Power weapon that causes instant death
> 
> Neural Shredder : No change
> 
> Polymorphine
> Old : Can be placed anywhere and move and fight normally on turn she arrives.
> New : Choose a enemy unit, takes D6 S4 AP2 hits, assassin is then placed within 3" of that unit using deep strikes rules without scatter.
> 
> Poison Blades
> Old : At end of combat make 1 attack, poison 4+ with normal saves allowed
> New : Removed
> 
> Jump Back
> Old : Roll D6, on 2+ move that many inches out of combat
> New : Hit and Run, do Initiative test (5 or lower) and move 3D6 anywhere you like.
> 
> A Word in your ear
> Old : Move 1 enemy unit up to 6"
> New : Removed
> 
> Stealth
> Old : Did not have
> New : Has it
> 
> Eversor
> New Stats : +3WS +3BS +2I +1A
> Melta-Bomb : Both has it
> 
> Executioner Pistol
> Old 12" S4 AP5 Pistol, Needle 12" poison 4+ AP6 Pistol
> New 12" S4 AP2 poison 2+
> 
> Neuro-Gauntlet
> Old : Power weapon Poison 4+, glance vehicle on 6+
> New : Lightning Claw (=Power weapon, Reroll failed to wound)
> 
> Combat Drugs
> Old : 12" charge, double distance rolled in difficult terrain. Gaints D6 attacks instead of +1.
> New : Renamed Frenzon - No longer 12" charge, Gains D6 attacks instead of +1
> 
> Fast Shot : GW FAQd it so it does nothing
> 
> Bio-Meltdown : Eversor explode, S5 blast on everything around it.
> 
> Furious Charge
> Old : Did not have
> New : Has it
> 
> Vindicare
> New Stats : +3WS +3BS +2I +1A
> 
> Exitus Rifle
> Old : 36" hit on 2+ wound on 4+ AP2
> Has 1 of each
> Shield breaker: Shot ignores inv save
> Turbo-Pen : 2wounds or 3D6 pen (max of 30)
> Hellfire : Wounds on 2+
> New : 36" Sx Ap1, Heavy 1 Sniper
> Has unlimited
> Shield Breaker : Target loses inv save for rest of game
> Turbo-Pen : 2wounds or 4D6 pen (max 39)
> Hellfire : Wounds on 2+
> 
> Spy Mask
> Old : -1 to target cover save, 2D6x5 night fight vision
> New : Removed
> 
> Stealth Suit
> Old : Night fight if shooting at Assassin on 2D6x3
> New : Removed
> 
> Marksman
> Old : Chooses target to shoot regardless of restrictions
> New : Renamed Deadshot - Assassin does wound allocation
> 
> New has : Blind Grenades (defensive grenades, Stealth and Infiltrate
> 
> All in all I'd say they have all received huge buffs, the redundant rules have been removed streamlining how they work.
> 
> Except they used to be quite good niche units. Now they are bad for the most part, and in the case of the Callidus and Eversor are significantly worse than they were previously. The Vindicare is the only exception; he got better.
> Take any assassin, put them vs 10SM in close combat or same type vs eachother. Old ones lose overall every single time. Do the math...
> 
> 
> 5+ armour save instead of 4+, and they lost their Targetters and Hellguns. You can't create Stormtroopers; you can throw points at Warrior Henchmen to make them cost more than they're worth.
> Or I can take 2 acolytes and give them bolters for the same price as 1 IST and use as wound allocation
> 
> 
> No they aren't xD
> Dont remember what you said
> 
> 
> That 6pts per model does add up after a while, amirite?
> You mean you never upgraded any of your henchmen? That must have sucked pretty badly...
> 
> 
> As opposed to the current WS3 BS3 5+ dudes, who... kick ass?
> Dont remember what you said
> 
> 
> As long as what you'd like is a glorified Infantry Squad with a few asinine special abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> Rad Grenades. So I can wound them on a 4+ instead of a 5+. Great.
> If you are using base acolytes for cc you fail...
> 
> 
> The Death Cultists are kinda neat with Hammerhand up (as long as you're not charging into cover), but aside from them everything else is likely to get stomped before it's Initiative order by anything nastier than Guardsmen because the whole unit is so flimsy.
> You mean IST didn't suffer the same fate? At least now you can throw in a Libby and give them I10...
> 
> 
> And yet still I'm pining for my Veteran Bodyguards, Mystics and Sages. Hell, even the Hierophants were pretty cool.
> Guess that's just you...
> 
> 
> Seriously? Would you seriously take them over the old Stormtroopers, or are you just trying to polish a turd here?
> Yes I would, I can do math and the math says the new ones are better.
> 
> 
> If you want to know what was "uniquer" about the old ISTs, it boils down to packing two BS4 special weapons in at 70pts and being able to step outside their vehicle for longer than ten seconds without being shot to pieces. Carapace armour does that for you.
> Hmm, you can do the exact same thing now by taking 3 acolytes with special weapons for 42pt (3BS3 = 2BS4), throw in some acolytes for extra wounds or crusaders with 3++ stormshields, if you rely on a 4+ armour save to stay alive you are doing something wrong...
> 
> 
> So basically, they have much the same options as the old Warrior Acolytes is what you're saying.
> 
> Why is this good?
> You are the one complaining about the old ones betting shitloads better when they had shitty gear, and the ONLY reason people took them was for 2 plasma guns at 70 pts.
> 
> 
> Ballistic Skill 4. Carapace armour. 10pts per model base, without the need to chew up some more points to increase their survivability. Not to mention they were Troops.
> 3BS4=2BS4 so no difference in effectiveness. If you rely on 4+ instead of cover you dont have any SM players or anyone with AP4 weapons where you play. Now you can take an unlimited amount of them as they dont take up FOC slots as long as the points limit allow it.
> 
> The new Inquisitorial units are bad. There is no getting away from that fact. The only Inquisitorial units who do not suck balls in the new book are Vindicare Assassins, and while Death Cultists received a significant boost in awesomeness over the old-school incarnation they are stuck in Henchman hell and they still don't have Frag Grenades.
> 
> If you want to know just how truly, ridiculously poor the new Codex is, imagine you have selected an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor as your HQ, and have bought for him a Daemonblade. Now imagine you are rolling up the two Daemonblade powers, and you roll first a 10, then a 2. Or an 11 and then a 5. Consult the table; consult it now, and know fail.
> Yeah, because basing your entire army on 2x2D6 rolls is what makes or break it... All the Inquisitorial units have received buffs and been stream lined, I guess you just dont want to accept it. You whine about Death Cults not having frag grenades but fail to mention that none of the old assassins did either, they do now however...


I guess you wont take anything I say into consideration...

Here is the math since you will most likely claim I'm lying...

Old Inquisitorial Storm Troops, 3 guys with S3 AP5 Hellguns not accounted for because they suck
Shots:	4 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	2.667 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	2.222 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.222 
Models Killed:	2.222 
Options:
Ignore Armour

New Warrior Acolytes, +2 acolytes with bolters, storm bolters or hot-shot lasguns not accounted for since that would be unfair....
Shots:	6 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	3 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	2.5 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.5 
Models Killed:	2.5 
Options:
Ignore Armour


----------



## hungryugolino

Thing is, streamlining is bad. It gets rid of anything that makes them interesting. We're obviously supposed to take Knights instead of a true daemonhunters/ Inquisition list, because "$50 a troop choice lol".

The fact that they didn't even keep true stormtroopers as a generic troops choice shows that much. Other special characters just improve existing options. Grey Knights forces you to take one just to play properly, and so they can give lip-service to supporting daemonhunters/sell $10 models.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Maybe ST will be in the Sisters of Battle codex eventhough there wont be any need for them, adeptus arbites should be in it at least.

Some of the things they have changed I think sucks but the assassins are loads better than before. Before they couldn't handle fighting any MC in the game, you would be lucky to do 1 wound vs a T6+ creature, now they can kill one pretty easily in cc for eversor and callidus. 1w is enough for the Callidus to kill one for instance and with I7 you strike first 100% of the time since I dont know any MC with I7 or above.

GW wants to sell their new plastic kits, GW as a company sucks really badly, they only care about space marines and money now, it used to be about the game but now it's only about money. This is why most of the good designers have left GW for Mantic as an example, because they want it to be about the game and not about money. GW is guaranteed to crash and burn unless they make some huge changes in the next few years, there is a rumour about GW might be preparing to be sold but how much truth there is in this I can't say. All I can say is GW only cares about 2 things, money and space marines (and the only reason they care about SM is because they sell the most of them, and the only reason they sell so many of them is because those are the only supported armies).


----------



## gally912

I will agree that someone who spent the time and money to make a Daemonhunters =I= army with the last codex (versus a GK one) has indeed been given a rough time in transition to the new 'dex.


----------



## Winterous

God damn, Mad Cow, I do believe you just bitchowned that guy's ranting :biggrin:


----------



## Biellann

MadCowCrazy said:


> Maybe ST will be in the Sisters of Battle codex eventhough there wont be any need for them, adeptus arbites should be in it at least.


Maybe they will do a flip on the current "designers note" in the current entry for IST (in C: WH). Instead of being able to make your ISTs counts-as arbites, you can make your arbites counts-as ISTs.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

hungryugolino said:


> You do realize the last three are a bad joke with the new dex?
> 
> Psyker Alpha Legion with storm bolters? Nope.
> Mechanicus? Oh dear, your Skitarii can't shoot straight. This actually is meh, but the last dex did it better.
> Rogue Inquisitor: still has to have a hammer because Ward says so, daemonhosts are even worse than before, and Radicals generally got shafted by new dex.
> 
> In short, best of luck, but you'd be better off using Imperial Guard or fleeing to Witchhunters while it's still usable for this sort of thing.


But they aren't stormbolters obviously some other group of Alphariuses just happened to shoot at the same target as this group of Alphariuses...What do you mean the numbers don't add up? Don't look behind the shrubbery...there are no Alphariuses or Cultists hiding in the bushes...of course not.

Psychers? they aren't psychers...the just have collected a bunch of daemon weaponry in their diabolical plan to use chaos against itself while appearing to be working for chaos while really working for the imperium but again thats just a cover for working for chaos, as a cover for working for the imperium....obviously.

Hail Hydra....ooooh if Alpha Legion ever gets a real codex Bob the Hydra need to be a special Character...mmm deadpool reference.



Also Lemme know if I have this right, Culexus still adds +1A to animus speculum for every psycher in 12", my entire army of space marines are now psychers, and he no longer makes them run away.

Target

XXX[_]XXX________GK Unit 1=X
XX____A__XX______GK Unit 2=0
OOOOOOOOO______Culexus=A
______O____________[]= TLOS window

Str 5 Ap1 shots =22

????? hehe

or is it only enemy psychers now?


P.S. My grammar in this post is atrocious, I'm tired, but its time to leave work finally.


----------



## Matosrogue

hungryugolino said:


> I'm sorry, but the codex isn't balanced, the fluff is appalling by any sane measure (Would it have been hard to simply not write the nonsensical portions? Making Grey Knights 1000? Why, other than his fanboy-ism?)
> 
> Above all, Matt Ward definitely can be blamed for certain things. Things like "SPIRITUAL LIEGE" and the gushing over certain characters. Other recent codexes have far superior writing, so it's definitely not because of pressure from above.
> 
> Face it, Matt Ward's an idiot.
> 
> P.S.
> Dirt-cheap stormtroopers without their uniquer aspects is completely missing the point. And forcing you to take Coteaz to do a non-Knight army is idiotic beyond words.


Honestly it doesn't look like anything could make you like this codex. You're hate for Matt Ward seems childish or you are just hating him to hate him because everyone else does and you felt left out. Sure, he's done some things to fluff in some codexes and made a few silly things here and there. Smurf hate well, he was ordered to make that codex...and it's really not all that bad seriously.

The new codex in my opinion seems really good. you can make a normal count list, A large number henchman list or a very small elite list. The wargear options are great, you get some of the coolest vehicles (looking at you stormraven and Land Raiders. Not too mention the wide array of weapons (halberds, falchions, hammers, standards, swords, staves, etc) just for TAGK / PAGK)

As for the fluff part, obviously it's all opinion but I, personally loved most. Lord Kaldor Draigo's bit? An abomination some say? I love that fluff. Even his picture in the codex with him striking that behemoth shows how much power he has, after all he is the most elite warrior of the most elite military group, which makes him "THEE" elite really, excluding maybe a few very powerful people.

And as for you, I'm not saying you have to love the codex or even like it, but I don't think you, or many others give Matt enough respect as it stands, agreeing with Madcow.:headbutt:


----------



## Lucian Kain

Ahh sick of hearing about Matt Ward,Yes hes guilty of fluff rape,but for the most part he has to follow a brief and is capable of produceing a ballanced codex even if we don't like the way he dose it.

Was just wondering If anyones thinking about running 4 DK???

Would it even be legal with the GM special rules or not


----------



## superwill

hungryugolino said:


> Thing is, streamlining is bad. It gets rid of anything that makes them interesting. *We're obviously supposed to take Knights instead of a true daemonhunters/ Inquisition list*, because "$50 a troop choice lol".


Here's the thing mate... You are supposed to take Knights because it's Knights dex.

A marine codex is always gonna make more. In general, people loved daemonhunters because they loved grey knights. AFAIK grey knights have been very popular in the media (DoW and black library) and so make a good choice for being the focus of their own codex. In any case, if you don't like the business decision to make the dex GK instead of DH take it up with someone other than Matt Ward, it wasn't his choice.

Having been given the task of making a Grey Knights codex, Ward makes a dex that actually includes even more inquisition units than before. He even makes it possible to have an entire Grey Knight army with no Grey Knights, letting people use their old DH armies by adding a new HQ. It is hardly a new thing that if you want to have a specific unit be troops and bypass the basic unit of the dex that you have to take a special character.

Despite it not particularly making sense for you to have the option of having a GK-free army with a Grey Knight dex, you have been given the opportunity to if you want. To suggest Ward is a hack for the reasons you have is pretty unconvincing. No wonder very few agree with you.

Obviously the fluff is crap. I wouldn't want him writing my novels, but my codex I'm fine with.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

It is funny when I read about all the Coteaz-Henchmen-Chimaerea Spam Lists and realize, that they are most of the time not even playable on tournaments. Nearly all tournaments I've ever been to don't even allow you to take characters like Coteaz or Marneus Calgar. So they basically can't even field these kind of lists!


----------



## Synack

Akhara'Keth said:


> It is funny when I read about all the Coteaz-Henchmen-Chimaerea Spam Lists and realize, that they are most of the time not even playable on tournaments. Nearly all tournaments I've ever been to don't even allow you to take characters like Coteaz or Marneus Calgar. So they basically can't even field these kind of lists!


Lol, cause I've never seen a single rule pack that disallows characters. It must just be the tournaments around you that do this. Most of the big name tournies have no limitation on special characters.


----------



## Winterous

Akhara'Keth said:


> It is funny when I read about all the Coteaz-Henchmen-Chimaerea Spam Lists and realize, that they are most of the time not even playable on tournaments. Nearly all tournaments I've ever been to don't even allow you to take characters like Coteaz or Marneus Calgar. So they basically can't even field these kind of lists!


Yeah, I've never heard of a tournament doing that with newer codices either.
In fact, that's total bullshit, and there's no way they should be doing that.

Older codices had SCs as a 'for-fun' option, you had to have your opponent's permission to field them.
That doesn't exist anymore, they're just a unit that you can take.


----------



## hungryugolino

Anyone heard if the IST are, in fact, getting shifted over? Any word on plastic henchmen?

Something good has to come out of this new dex...


----------



## Biellann

Ignoring the BoK revelation, when were we expecting the SoB codex? Would it be called C: SoB or C: Ecclesiarchy?

Edit: you edited before I could post, so removed my comment.


----------



## Synack

hungryugolino said:


> Anyone heard if the IST are, in fact, getting shifted over? Any word on plastic henchmen?
> 
> Something good has to come out of this new dex...


There is NO ISTs in the C:GK book.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Nothing is set in stone but people are expecting us to see codex Sisters of Battle (yes, the rebirth of the 2ed codex) first or second quarter next year. It was said 6 months ago that the sisters were at least 18months away so we should see Sisters around this time next year. If you have not read the old Sisters of Battle codex it was basically Sisters with some Ecclesiarchy priests and units thrown into the mix.

There is no reason it would be called Ecclesiarchy since they have such a small presence in the game, GW will want to sell models so will focus on the new plastic sisters.


----------



## hungryugolino

Read it, have it, like it.

Pity about that, really. The Ecclesiarchy has fun things like mobs of zealots, clerics, and basically one big circus and witch-hunt. I really wish they'd make one good PA dex (read: 4e dex chapter rules) and stick with it... 

That, and IST support with plastics. Fat chance of that now...


----------



## Irbian

Ok, I have seen the picture of the dreadknight in the codex and I have one more comparation

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3W02zbuak1SxHYMaHPBtOH--TMwaD10vRP-h0ywMQVyC8-avt

Edit: Valeria doesnt have picture


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Frank Fugger said:


> Allot of stuff I didn't bother reading





















Here is the math for you since you obviously dont care for it.

Old IST 150pt
5 IST, 2 with plasmagun 70pt
-Chimera 80pt

"New IST" 69pt +whatever transport you want.
3 Acolytes with plasma guns and carapace armour 54pt
3 Acolytes with Boltguns 15pt
-Rhino 40pt
-Razorback 45pt
-Chimera 55pt

Mathhammer
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Shots:	6 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	4 
Wound Chance:	33.33% 
Wounds:	1.333 
Saved Wounds:	0.889 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.444 
Models Killed:	0.444 

Plasma Gun toting IST
Shots:	4 
Hit Chance:	66.67% 
Hits:	2.667 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	2.222 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.222 
Models Killed:	2.222 

Generic Space Marine 
Hits:	6.667
Wounds:	3.556
Saves:	0.889
Wounds Lost:	2.667
Models Lost:	2.667 / 10 (26.7%) 

Warrior Acolytes
Shots:	6 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	3 
Wound Chance:	50% 
Wounds:	1.5 
Saved Wounds:	1 
Unsaved Wounds:	0.5 
Models Killed:	0.5 

Plasma Gun toting Acolytes
Shots:	6 
Hit Chance:	50% 
Hits:	3 
Wound Chance:	83.33% 
Wounds:	2.5 
Unsaved Wounds:	2.5 
Models Killed:	2.5

Generic Space Marine 
Hits:	6
Wounds:	4
Saves:	1
Wounds Lost:	3
Models Lost:	3 / 10 (30%)

New ones have a larger chance to kill models than the old ones. New ones are cheaper and does the same job better, I'd say the new ones are superior.

Was going to do the math on the new assassins as well but just can't be arsed. The new assassins are better than the old, they have been assigned new jobs on the battlefield but they do those jobs ALLOT better.

As for Henchmen you can now do the exact same thing you could before but you can do it cheaper and more efficiently. No matter how much you whine it wont change. I'd take the new GKs vs your old DH codex anyday, I'm sure the old DH codex was so damn OP that DH won every tournament out there all thanks to the 150pt 4 plasma shot IST running around...



Irbian said:


> Ok, I have seen the picture of the dreadknight in the codex and I have one more comparation
> 
> http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3W02zbuak1SxHYMaHPBtOH--TMwaD10vRP-h0ywMQVyC8-avt
> 
> Edit: Valeria doesnt have picture


Would be great for a nurgle conversion... Nurgle Plague Knights  Awesome!


----------



## Irbian

ok, one question, Im the only one who is pissed for the need of coteaz for playing a inquisition army? and that you can only have 3 inquisitors? with so many options and so little things...

ahm, just remember, I love the codex and Iwill enjoy it a lot, but... it is a pain in the ass


----------



## Katie Drake

Irbian said:


> ok, one question, Im the only one who is pissed for the need of coteaz for playing a inquisition army?


Welcome to 5th edition. Daemonhunters players have had years to prepare for this, it really shouldn't come as a surprise.


----------



## soots12

is it worth to take extra armour on vehicles?


----------



## Irbian

mpf, sorry for the whine katie drake. Im preparing some count as answers "that is my count as coteaz. The psyber eagle? is that rat in his base. ehrmm no, he dont have a hammer, he has a sword count as hammer. yeah!" 

opinions about hellrifle? worth it? Im thinking on my old heavy bolter+plasma cannon firebase with the malleus+hellrifle babysitting them


----------



## Azezel

MadCowCrazy said:


> Maybe ST will be in the Sisters of Battle codex eventhough there wont be any need for them, adeptus arbites should be in it at least.


No they should not. Battle Sisters should be in it, so should other Sororitas (to an extent) and a minor Ecclesiarchy selection. Arbites should no more be in the codex than they should be in the Guard or Marine codices.

I continually fail to understand why people think a future Sisters codex is the ideal place to throw anything that can't be squeezed in anywhere else. I've seen people suggest Inquisition, Arbites, Sisters of Silence, mutants & gangers, Nobles' household troops, you name it. None of it belongs in the codex.




Biellann said:


> Ignoring the BoK revelation, when were we expecting the SoB codex? Would it be called C: SoB or C: Ecclesiarchy?
> 
> Edit: you edited before I could post, so removed my comment.





MadCowCrazy said:


> Nothing is set in stone but people are expecting us to see codex Sisters of Battle (yes, the rebirth of the 2ed codex) first or second quarter next year. *It was said 6 months ago that the sisters were at least 18months away* so we should see Sisters around this time next year.


The implication - at least so far as I understood it, was that Sisters were 18 months away if work was started then. And so far as we know, that work cannot start until July this year, or later.

We know that at some point in the last 5-6 years, there were one or more experiments and concept-sculpts made by the sculpting department, but no rumourmonger has ever said that work has begun on actual kits - and Jes Goodwin said he would be working soldidly on Dark Eldar until summer this year (he is not just a sculpter, he's the bossman of the entire plastics department). He would then take a break, and after that, start work on a new non-marine project that he could not talk about. That project is believed to be Sisters*.

Harry once said that a new plastic kit requires an average twelve months lead-time. Jes Goodwin said that Sisters were problematic. He said they learned a lot from Dark Eldar and _can_ solve those problems, but haven't actually done so.

The codex is said to have begun within six months of work on codex: Grey Knights. It seems possible that the Codex is finished, at least, bar final touches, and could be very rapidly released when there are kits to sell.

Realistically, it looks like the end of 2012, not the start.

*And by 'believed' I mean I really hope it is. Also, some process of elimination. Non-Marine still leaves almost half of all armies, but the only non-Marine armies due an update within the next couple of years are Sisters, Tau and 'crons. Work seems to have already started on 'crons and Tau, if the rumours are true.


----------



## boreas

Hummm... Since vindicares don't have "independant character", they can benefit from "The Grand Strategy". Hence, Hellfire shots (that wound on 2+) could re-roll all "ones" to wound . So the guy hits 92% of the time (BS 8) and wounds 97% of the time. Harsh!

In the same vein, you could have your Eversor Scouting for nice outflanking fun.

As for the whole debate about DH armies, I see it thus: my DH armies using Codex: DH were impossible to play (well, I did beat that blind kid at my store one time but to his defense his MIRA dog didn't know how to play very well). Now, I can fiddle around with different builds. Mind you, I much more of a GK player than a DH player, so I got the better end of the deal...

If Codex: GK is to be a model for Codex: SoB (mainly militant chamber, but a great presence of other stuff), the "I want a pure SoB codex with possibly a tiny bit of Ecclesiarchy camp" has better prepare for more I think. If they could, to everyone's (big!) surprise put all 3 ordos and Jokaero in Codex: GK, they can do anything. Heck, if I'd proposed the 3 ordos and the monkey a year ago, I'd have been quoted as the "stupidest, lamest guy on the internet, including Charlie Sheen". So I don't think Arbites or Stormtrooper are out of the question, far from it. Personally, just as long as I can run a crazy church mob, including Penitent engines, zealots and preachers I'll be happy.

Phil


----------



## alex567

I actually feel sick that people are saying that the 3 staline is bad, i play a guard army and the bs 3 s 3 t 3 is always underrated yet ehwn you have 3 squads of guardsmen shooting you in the face and killing your beefed out squad of marines in ONE turn of shooting then you start to under estimate them, if you took 3 squads of acolytes with boltguns at 9 points a model includeing a 4+ save thats better then my guardsmen if your any good at the game then you can easily keep them alive, why to god are you trying to keep them alive? their job is to hit something in the face with no less then 30 boltgun shots up to 60 and kill that unit dead or atleast maim it so it can be delt with, with that multilaser sporting chimera, the new assasins are good at killing enemy infantry and heavy infantry, the lightning claw isnt that bad a replacement because, if your using it to kill a big unit then your doing it wrong, it is to be used in conjunction with a power weapon wielding 5 man squad of death cults or crusaders, corteaz isnt bad he is a brilliant independant character for 100pts, wak him in a squad of jokearo's or servitors and your enemy is not gonna bother popping up any where near them. but the main point to this is dont hate the 3 or the 3 will hate you and that will be all you will roll with your strength 4 boltguns and your s 4 power weapons.


----------



## hungryugolino

Get a sickbag. They'd be nice if they weren't meant to be replacements or the only alternative path.

Give me real stormtroopers, generic-HQ henchmen troops, or other such options, and I'd shut up pretty quickly.


----------



## hungryugolino

Katie Drake said:


> Welcome to 5th edition. Daemonhunters players have had years to prepare for this, it really shouldn't come as a surprise.


So they got violated like guardsmen in a Slaaneshi incursion, but knew it was coming. That's comforting.


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> So they got violated like guardsmen in a Slaaneshi incursion, but knew it was coming. That's comforting.


You can complain when your 3 Chaos armies are invalidated.


----------



## Lesiu

No offence hungryugolino but you are just whining. New codex got more options, new ideas, new units. Compared to poor 3ed one with like 10 options new GKs are increadibly versatile. Also saying the codex is crap, because you can't make some count as army is silly. They made codex GK to play with GK army.


----------



## alex567

i apologise that at the same cost as a guard chimera you can get one in the new codex, and take a squad inside with 3 meltagins at bs 3 and with two extra models for wound alacation, that being able to zoom up the bored and pop a tank any way is so bad, i think that with the henchmen were all over lokking the fact that you DONT have to just take warrior acolyts, i think a squad of 9 acolytes with bltguns and a jokero weapon smith is a cool idea when mounted in a chimera with heavy flamers, cause 3 templates a turn is quite nasty to even marines
.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> Did you not read the interview Alessio did with BoLS? He "simplified and streamlined" the Codex; the reason your armies were invalidated is not because the book is bad, but simply you don't 'get' what he was trying to do when he messed up all the points costs and poured a big bucket of piss all over the workings.


I did. He and Gav fucked up my three armies. I don't care about changing point costs, what I care about is having my Lost and the Damned army shat on, my Iron Warriors made gimpy and my Black Legion being the same as everyone else. But tons of people have whined about this before so let's not get them started...


----------



## Viscount Vash

Frank Fugger said:


> Did you not read the interview Alessio did with BoLS? He "simplified and streamlined" the Codex; the reason your armies were invalidated is not because the book is bad, but simply you don't 'get' what he was trying to do when he messed up all the points costs and poured a big bucket of piss all over the workings.


Chaos lost rules for whole armies not just squads or some stat lines.

I had 120 nicely painted usable Cultists once. I had Infiltrating Alpha Legion, I had four usable one God based armies too. The list goes on.

SMs have options to tailor armies via SCs .

Chaos have shit all.

What they did is fuck the codex, full stop. Simplification my arse.

Every Twat and his Squig took the same Iron Warrior cheese to tournies.
The 8 year olds were getting confused by having many options andthey need to sell more shit to kiddies who have more disposable cash than people who actually have to work for it.


But I digress, and now have to bollock myself for wandering off topic....


----------



## hungryugolino

Katie Drake said:


> You can complain when your 3 Chaos armies are invalidated.


So just because it could have been worse still, I should praise Ward?



Lesiu said:


> No offence hungryugolino but you are just whining. New codex got more options, new ideas, new units. Compared to poor 3ed one with like 10 options new GKs are increadibly versatile. Also saying the codex is crap, because you can't make some count as army is silly. They made codex GK to play with GK army.


More options for the loss of the old, new ideas that are the worst I've ever seen, and new units that are a mixed bag. The "poor" 3rd edition was wonderful in regards to fluff and non-PA options, whatever it's faults.

And that's the damn problem! If they're making GK and scrapping daemonhunters, they should take steps to account for daemonhunters!


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> So just because it could have been worse still, I should praise Ward?


No, but you could realize that what you got really isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.



> And that's the damn problem! If they're making GK and scrapping daemonhunters, they should take steps to account for daemonhunters!


They did. You just don't agree with what those steps are which is nobody's problem but yours.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Frank Fugger said:


> Ballistic.
> 
> Skill.
> 
> Four.


You really seem obsessed with BS4 vs BS3, the difference is 16% or +1 more BS3 unit per 2 BS4. 3 Guardsmen with lasgun is better than 2 IST with hellrifles when it comes to shooting. Armour save doesn't mean shit because you would have them in cover unless you fucked up.

I'm starting to think you are just trolling, you can whine all you want but it wont change anything. If you still want to play your IST go ahead, I'm sure anyone will agree to fighting those shitty units.


----------



## Rivan

soots12 said:


> is it worth to take extra armour on vehicles?


IMO, Fortitude is safe enough for the most part. Of course it can hurt you at a bad time when you end up failing the psychic test or it gets blocked by a hood or rune weapon 

If there are enough points to spare, it's probably not a bad back up depending on the vehicle you plan on purchasing it for. Just my two cents...


----------



## Irbian

> 2.667 versus 3. That's not "larger". It is, in fact, "the same".


Like the joke, 2.667=3 for large values of 2.667


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> Like the joke, 2.667=3 for large values of 2.667


Meh, small numbers are beond his grasp it seems. We could do it with 2000IST shooting at 10 000 marines killing 2667 marines on average whilst 3000 Warrior Acolytes would kill 3000. Then again 2667 is the same as 3000, Id wish to trade him 2667€ and he'd give me 3000€ back  It is "the same" after all


----------



## Mathai

*Space Marine walks up to his brand new suit of Terminator armor* Awww yeah, I've been waiting to get this new suit of armor for years! No more of this running around in regular armor...Wait, WTF?!? The boots are brown? Man, this shit sucks! I prefer my scout armor over this crappy brown booted suit of Terminator armor. *Space Marine runs off crying*


----------



## sybarite

Frank Fugger said:


> No, they're both as shit as each other. That's why the Emperor invented special weapons. If I was a gambling man I'd put money on the 2 BS4 Meltaguns over the three BS3 Meltaguns every time. That's what Guard players do when they take Veterans instead of Special Weapon Teams.
> 
> 
> 
> ... or unless they've just gotten out of a transport to Meltagun something.
> 
> Do you play Warhammer: 40,000 at all? You should try it sometime, it is a fun game.


l have said this before and coming from someone who plays with IG. (DA, BT and SoB) Putting men in a tank with a meltagun may work well in theory, but it only works on people who are not ready for it as most players will send there inf at it not there tanks.

Back on topic now that l have finish reading the Gary Knight codex l will say that there op as hell, and quite a few people in my area have refuse to vs them already and there not even out yet.  To be fair there is a few ninds and chaos players.


----------



## Creon

I won't refuse to play or hop on the bandwagon until issuance and vetting by the whole. I think they're tough and expensive. Might not be so bad.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Mad Cow, could you change the wording of Psyflame ammunition to affecting Flamers, Heavy Flamers, and Flamestorm Cannons. The reason I say that is in the wording of the summary its mentioned that all template weapons as being affected by psyflame ammunition and it does not mention Incinerators being affected.


----------



## callred

just for my own confirmation is there anything in the new codex regarding +1 attack for stormbolters a la 'true grit' / counts as pistols as rumored before?


----------



## Katie Drake

callred said:


> just for my own confirmation is there anything in the new codex regarding +1 attack for stormbolters a la 'true grit' / counts as pistols as rumored before?


No, no there isn't. Because it was bullshit from people that didn't know anything in the first place and were either making shit up or just repeating what they'd heard. Which I've been saying for ages. 

*wins*


----------



## callred

i suppose i can live with that knowing the whole squad if passing the psychic test inflicts instant death !!! :shok:

oh and ty for the ealry pics btw


----------



## hungryugolino

> *wins*


Sorry to sink your float... 

On that note, any rumours for the next wave of models, if there is one?


----------



## sybarite

callred said:


> i suppose i can live with that knowing the whole squad if passing the psychic test inflicts instant death !!! :shok:


that and l think it was done to make them more "balance" if they had 2 attacks each with insta death...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Frank Fugger said:


> Do you know what the mathematical term "rounding off" means? I think I learned about it when I was 6 or 7. Rounding off is what you do when you are dealing with decimal numbers in a system that can only use whole numbers - let's say, for instance, a tabletop wargame. There's no such thing as 0.667 of a wound in 40k; it's either a wound, or it's not a wound.
> 
> So, what happens if you are doing a sum related to this system, but the result is a decimal? You round it off.
> 
> If it's 0.49 or below, you round it down. If it's 0.50 or above, you round it up.
> 
> Hence, by the simple laws of primary school mathematics, we discover that 2.667 is in fact the same as 3.
> HURRRR I'M A HOERS WHAT CAN DO MAFFS
> So you need 1,000 more Acolytes to kill 333 more Marines, and still you can't see how they're worse?
> The irony is strong in this one.


I will give this one last chance...
So 20 IST shooting at 100 SM kills 27 marines rounded up, 30 IST kill 30.
I'm pretty sure 30 is bigger than 27 but I'm sure you will say that 27 is the same as 30 since 2.667 is the same as 3. RIGHT!??!


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Guys, the whole Flame war/bitching around gets really annoying! If you want to discuss it, please do it over pm. 

Well, I think we can now start talking about SoB since there are no more Rumours about the Grey Knights...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hungryugolino said:


> Sorry to sink your float...
> 
> On that note, any rumours for the next wave of models, if there is one?


From what has been said initial release is on the 4th, with another wave coming on the 16th with Crowe and Jokaero. This seems a bit too small so we might see some new metal henchmen or something like that on the 16th.


----------



## alex567

MadCowCrazy said:


> From what has been said initial release is on the 4th, with another wave coming on the 16th with Crowe and Jokaero. This seems a bit too small so we might see some new metal henchmen or something like that on the 16th.


Hope fully they will bring out plastics or atleast do a box where you get 5 of a set henchman for £20 so like a box of death cults and a box of crusaders, that might work. :read:


----------



## alex567

Frank Fugger said:


> How did you get 27 from 2.667? You rounded it up to the nearest 0.1 and multiplied it by ten, didn't you?
> 
> So how do you think I got 3 from 2.667 then?
> 
> And why do you think I'd be rounding 27 up to 30? 40k works in whole numbers; if the total of a sum is a whole number it doesn't need to be rounded up. Herp derp.
> 
> 20 ISTs shooting at 100 Marines kill 27, while 30 Acolytes shooting at 100 Marines kill 30. You have bought an extra ten Acolytes to kill 3 more Marines; bearing in mind that your math-hammer has the Acolytes armed with Bolters that wound on a 4+ (as opposed to a 5+ like the IST Hellguns), that's pretty shoddy.
> 
> The higher you make the total, the more clear it becomes that Acolytes are not as good at shooting as ISTs are. Cheaper? Of course; two Acolytes for every one IST. That's not the point. The point is BS4 models are more reliable shots than BS3 ones.
> 
> Which is self-evident. Which begs the question, why are we even still arguing about this?


Because you are trying to tell everyone that likes bs3 to drop your beleifs and follow yours at bs4 , but realy for those of us who like bs 3 just back of a bit, cause your starting to go abit far, i dont want to start an arguement im just asking if youll back of the bs 3 a little more.


----------



## alex567

Frank Fugger said:


> No, I'm pointing out that BS4 is better at hitting stuff with ranged weapons. Which it is. It's not a question of "liking" something, it's a question of BS4 being better at hitting with ranged attacks.
> 
> If you feel slighted that BS4 models shoot better than BS3 ones you might want to go and shout at GW for designing the game system the way they did, or something. I don't know what to do for you.


i have no problem with bs 3 hitting worse then bs4 i already know that but id ont need it said to my face every other post, im just saying i think it was better we moved onto something else, this is a COMPILATION forum after all not a general discusion forum.


----------



## Brovius

Frank Fugger said:


> No, I'm pointing out that BS4 is better at hitting stuff with ranged weapons. Which it is. It's not a question of "liking" something, it's a question of BS4 being better at hitting with ranged attacks.
> 
> If you feel slighted that BS4 models shoot better than BS3 ones you might want to go and shout at GW for designing the game system the way they did, or something. I don't know what to do for you.


Ew, why would you use BS4?
BS4 is shit. BS5 is far superior. Get that noob crap out of here.

Seriously, quit your whinging. If you want to complain, go make a thread on how BS4 is better than BS3. There are times when more shotsat lower BS are better, like when shooting THSS terminators, where the more dice they roll, the more will likely die. It comes down to one in the hand or two in the bush.
On another note, it's Codex: GREY KNIGHTS. So you should expect it to be about GREY KNIGHTS, not THE INQUISITION.
It's like expecting to find rules for Rough Riders, Infantry platoons and Manticores in Codex: Blood Angels. Stop complaining and be glad your units got any mention at all, let alone the ability to make an entire army out of them.

Now,if you guys can wrap this up, i'd like to hear some rumors about an army i'm actually excited for.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Frank Fugger I have tried to be nice, I have tried to explain simple mathematics, stats and percentages to you but you refuse to understand.
I give up, you are obviously a forum troll. Take your complaining over to Warseer please but I guess you are already banned there. If you keep on complaining here I will give you a 1 week suspension so you can try to figure out what I have been trying to teach you.

Call GW and complain to them if you dont like the new GK codex, it is my opinion that the new codex is far superior to the old one and my math supports it. If you dont like it quit playing 40k or keep on playing with the DH codex, just dont bother everyone else here with your none sense ramblings that doesn't add up when you do the math.
Math hammer is in no way 100% correct of the outcome but what it does do is tell you the most average scenario. I have done the math many times over and everything you claim is wrong, take the old units and face them off vs the new units at equal points values and you will see the new units are better for the same or cheaper points cost.
If you dont like it you can fuck off!

This is my first, last and only warning...


----------



## alex567

Brovius said:


> Ew, why would you use BS4?
> BS4 is shit. BS5 is far superior. Get that noob crap out of here.
> 
> Seriously, quit your whinging. If you want to complain, go make a thread on how BS4 is better than BS3. There are times when more shotsat lower BS are better, like when shooting THSS terminators, where the more dice they roll, the more will likely die. It comes down to one in the hand or two in the bush.
> On another note, it's Codex: GREY KNIGHTS. So you should expect it to be about GREY KNIGHTS, not THE INQUISITION.
> It's like expecting to find rules for Rough Riders, Infantry platoons and Manticores in Codex: Blood Angels. Stop complaining and be glad your units got any mention at all, let alone the ability to make an entire army out of them.
> 
> Now,if you guys can wrap this up, i'd like to hear some rumors about an army i'm actually excited for.


sisters are coming out tommorrew!!! sorry you said a rummor you were excited for, techniqualy the grey knights are'nt rumors any more, just being silly. any way thawn is actualy epic, the fluffs good, if your prepared to allow your fantacy to imagine the 40,000 year and he is realy cool termi upgrade, has a force halberd, and when he dies he becomes a seperate unit, but he is a troops choice, so when he dies and respawns whats that? two troop choices?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If there are still any non fluff questions about the codex I can pretty much answer them. Then again there shouldn't really be any need any more.


----------



## Mathai

Ever since the codex came out, talk of how Nemesis Force Swords granting a +1 invulnerable in close combat have evaporated completely. Did that aspect of the sword go away in the final version?


----------



## Katie Drake

Mathai said:


> Ever since the codex came out, talk of how Nemesis Force Swords granting a +1 invulnerable in close combat have evaporated completely. Did that aspect of the sword go away in the final version?


No, it's still very much part of the Codex.


----------



## genesis80

does anyone know the weapon options for battle brother termi's and paladins?


----------



## Wusword77

MadCowCrazy said:


> If there are still any non fluff questions about the codex I can pretty much answer them. Then again there shouldn't really be any need any more.


I couldn't find this in the thread so I'll ask it here. If it has been brought up before please let me know.

Can I take Warbands without an Inquisitor?

and

Coteaz's special rule for the warbands, how does it work in relation to taking henchmen with an Inquisitor? Does the rule of taking one warband for each inquisitor counting outside the FOC still apply or does it go away because all warbands now count as troops?

I only ask this because I just can't wrap my head around GW putting a rule in for cheap unlimited scoring units for any army


Edit:


genesis80 said:


> does anyone know the weapon options for battle brother termi's and paladins?


Pallies
For Every 5 pallies 2 may take: Incinerator, Psilencer, Psycannon
Any model may replace NFS for Halberd, Deamon hammer, Falchions
One model may replace NFS for a Warding Staff
Whole squad can take psybolt ammo
Any model can make their weapons Mastercrafted

Termies
For every 5 termies 1 can take: Incinerator, Psilencer, Psycannon
Any model may replace NFS for Halberd, Deamon hammer, Falchions
One model may replace NFS for a Warding Staff
Whole squad can take psybolt ammo
Justicar can make his weapon Master Crafted


----------



## coke123

I've forgotten- can only paladins take brotherhood banners? I assume so, since shoving them on everything would be crazy, but still... The thought of purifiers with 3A base and automatic Cleansing Flame/Hammerhand has me intrigued...


----------



## Crimson Shadow

The +1 to invulnerable saves for Nemesis weapons, does that mean that a standard Grey Knight now has a 6+ invulnerable in CC?


----------



## Katie Drake

coke123 said:


> I've forgotten- can only paladins take brotherhood banners? I assume so, since shoving them on everything would be crazy, but still... The thought of purifiers with 3A base and automatic Cleansing Flame/Hammerhand has me intrigued...


Paladins, Grey Knight Terminators and Ghost Knights, from memory. Maybe Purifiers too, I don't remember.



Crimson Shadow said:


> The +1 to invulnerable saves for Nemesis weapons, does that mean that a standard Grey Knight now has a 6+ invulnerable in CC?


No, you need an existing Invul to benefit from the sword.


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

Crimson Shadow said:


> The +1 to invulnerable saves for Nemesis weapons, does that mean that a standard Grey Knight now has a 6+ invulnerable in CC?


No it specifically states that models who possess invulnerables already get the bonus. Otherwise it is null.



coke123 said:


> I've forgotten- can only paladins take brotherhood banners? I assume so, since shoving them on everything would be crazy, but still... The thought of purifiers with 3A base and automatic Cleansing Flame/Hammerhand has me intrigued...


GK Terminators and Paladins can take Brotherhood Banners.



Wusword77 said:


> I couldn't find this in the thread so I'll ask it here. If it has been brought up before please let me know.
> 
> Can I take Warbands without an Inquisitor?
> 
> and
> 
> Coteaz's special rule for the warbands, how does it work in relation to taking henchmen with an Inquisitor? Does the rule of taking one warband for each inquisitor counting outside the FOC still apply or does it go away because all warbands now count as troops?
> 
> I only ask this because I just can't wrap my head around GW putting a rule in for cheap unlimited scoring units for any army
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> Pallies
> For Every 5 pallies 2 may take: Incinerator, Psilencer, Psycannon
> Any model may replace NFS for Halberd, Deamon hammer, Falchions
> One model may replace NFS for a Warding Staff
> Whole squad can take psybolt ammo
> Any model can make their weapons Mastercrafted
> 
> Termies
> For every 5 termies 1 can take: Incinerator, Psilencer, Psycannon
> Any model may replace NFS for Halberd, Deamon hammer, Falchions
> One model may replace NFS for a Warding Staff
> Whole squad can take psybolt ammo
> Justicar can make his weapon Master Crafted


Inquisitors are required to take a Henchman Warband though they do not take up an FOC slot and are listed in the Elites. Coteaz indeed makes them troops and removes the Inquisitor limit on Henchman. However, it is not clear if they then take up FOC as troops. If they do then there are going to be some crazy and powerful combinations from this.

Cheers folks.

EDIT- And of course ninja'd by the Great Drake. Fiddlesticks.


----------



## Winterous

I've a question.
The Grey Knights box (Power armour) comes with a Warding Stave.
Does the Warding Stave, unlike the sword, grant an Invulnerable save to someone who does not have such a save to begin with?
Because I can see no other reason there would be one in the box :S


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> I've a question.
> The Grey Knights box (Power armour) comes with a Warding Stave.
> Does the Warding Stave, unlike the sword, grant an Invulnerable save to someone who does not have such a save to begin with?
> Because I can see no other reason there would be one in the box :S


It does, that's its whole function.


----------



## Judas Masias

What are the units that Lord Kaldor Draigo can give his D3 special options to? (IE) scout.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Judas Masias said:


> What are the units that Lord Kaldor Draigo can give his D3 special options to? (IE) scout.


Basically every unit that is not a vehicle


----------



## Mathai

And also on Draigo, is his weapon a completely seperate weapon or does it also say anywhere in his stuff that its a Nemesis Force Sword? I.e. Prince Yriel of Eldar fame's weapon is a 'Singing Spear that ignores armor saves' is Draigo's weapon 'A Nemesis force sword that also does yadda yadda yadda...' ?


----------



## Katie Drake

Mathai said:


> And also on Draigo, is his weapon a completely seperate weapon or does it also say anywhere in his stuff that its a Nemesis Force Sword? I.e. Prince Yriel of Eldar fame's weapon is a 'Singing Spear that ignores armor saves' is Draigo's weapon 'A Nemesis force sword that also does yadda yadda yadda...' ?


It's not a nemesis force sword, thank god because the guy would be unkillable in close combat.


----------



## Necrosis

Its a master crafted force weapon with the Daemonbane rule.


----------



## Mathai

Drat. x.x I know it would be OP as hell, but it was still a fun thought to have a character that has a 2+ invulnerable save like that. =) Well, still got ma Warding Staves


----------



## Doelago

Is Brother-Captain Stern still in the codex?


----------



## Katie Drake

Doelago said:


> Is Brother-Captain Stern still in the codex?


Yup. He's nothing special though, unless you're fighting Daemons, then he's extremely amusing.


----------



## Doelago

Katie Drake said:


> Yup. He's nothing special though, unless you're fighting Daemons, then he's extremely amusing.


So he is useless against everything but Daemons? Well, what does he do? :spiteful:


----------



## RedemptionNL

Katie Drake said:


> Mathai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever since the codex came out, talk of how Nemesis Force Swords granting a +1 invulnerable in close combat have evaporated completely. Did that aspect of the sword go away in the final version?
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's still very much part of the Codex.
Click to expand...

Does the improved invulnerable save always work, or only in close combat?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Judas Masias said:


> What are the units that Lord Kaldor Draigo can give his D3 special options to? (IE) scout.


Grand Strategy has the following restrictions : You roll D3, that many units can be granted 1 of 4 special rules, all have to take the same rule.
You can grant them to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures or Walkers.
You can NOT give it to Independent Characters, Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands or Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights.

Hammer of Righteousness : Reroll 1s to wound for the duration of game

Shield of Blades : Counter-Attack for the duration of game

Spear of Light : Scout for duration of game

Unyielding Anvil : Count as Troops for duration of game



Doelago said:


> So he is useless against everything but Daemons? Well, what does he do? :spiteful:


He has the special rules : 
The Strands of Fate : You can reroll one To Hit, To Wound or Saving Throw each phase, however for every dice rerolled your opponent can re-roll one To Hit, To Wound or Saving Throw at any point later in the game.

You attack Stern, you get do 1 wound and fail to wound with another attack, he fails the armour save, ops to reroll and succeeds, you can now reroll the other to wound that missed if you want or you can save them aditional re-rolls for when they are needed.

He also has the Psychic Power Zone of Banishment :
In his assault phase pass psychic test, all models except Stern (friend or foe) within D6" has to pass a Strength test or be removed from play, Daemons much re-roll successful rolls.

This is all he has, pretty meh but I guess you could do allot of fun things with ZoB 



RedemptionNL said:


> Does the improved invulnerable save always work, or only in close combat?


Close Combat only


----------



## RedemptionNL

MadCowCrazy said:


> Unyielding Anvil : Count as Troops for duration of game


They become scoring I assume? They don't count as Troops for other parts of the game, such as Dawn of War depoyment?



> You attack Stern, you get do 1 wound and fail to wound with another attack, he fails the armour save, ops to reroll and succeeds, you can now reroll the other to wound that missed if you want or you can save them aditional re-rolls for when they are needed.


I don't think you can reroll a to Wound roll after saving throws are already taken.



> Close Combat only


Thanks!


----------



## coke123

Katie Drake said:


> Paladins, Grey Knight Terminators and Ghost Knights, from memory. Maybe Purifiers too, I don't remember.





Kalishnikov-47 said:


> GK Terminators and Paladins can take Brotherhood Banners.


Cheers guys, I figured as much...



Katie Drake said:


> Yup. He's nothing special though, unless you're fighting Daemons, then he's extremely amusing.


I dunno, that strength test super-doom power is pretty cool...


----------



## Dagmire

To be fair FF i think he has a point.


----------



## Dagmire

Yeah, but please stop bringing the rest of us down. Maybe make a new thread about how much yo uthink the new dex/lack of IST sucks?


----------



## RedemptionNL

I think Warrior Acolytes are an improvement over ISTs:

+ More wargear options
+ Cheaper base cost
+ Transports, that are better than their DH codex counterparts. Access to Razorbacks
+ Access more more special weapons. 3 Meltaguns at BS3 are better than 2 meltaguns at BS4.
+ Acolyte with bolter and carapace armour is cheaper than an IST. The higher strength of the bolter offsets the lower chance to hit, and they can now threathen AV10 if needed.
- Lost grenades and targetter
- Only Troops choices if you take a 100pt HQ.

So they're cheaper, more flexible, have cheaper and better transports and do more damage against everything, even with the loss of 1 BS. And the only big downer is the 100pt HQ you have to take to make them Troops.


----------



## firstandonly246

Cmon man let it go. We really dont need this bickering about which is better in this thread. I might be new to the forums but I at least know when not to rant about something especially when the moderators says stop. Just agree to disagree and move on.

Now for a serious question. Sorry if this has been already asked, probably has, but does anyone know what the stats are on the psycannon (if it has been changed at all) and heavy psycannon?


----------



## RedemptionNL

firstandonly246 said:


> Now for a serious question. Sorry if this has been already asked, probably has, but does anyone know what the stats are on the psycannon (if it has been changed at all) and heavy psycannon?


Psycannon is 24" S7 AP4 Rending, Heavy 4 or Assault 2
Heavy Psycannon is 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Rending


----------



## Irbian

FF, your ignorance at simple math and your constant agressive behaviour makes you look like a troll. If you are, the only thing I have to say is "Don´t feed the troll". If you don´t, maybe you could think why several people here find this argue disgusting.

And that´s is what Im going to say on this topic. If you two have some kind of personal problem, bring it to pm, dont make this thread a mess.

OnTopic: Waiting for the fluff. I´m thinking about where went the "traitorous fussion geneseed".

By the way, it seems that the limited edition inquisitor weren´t supposed to be released now. It was a mistake, at least, that was quoted on a mail to GW


----------



## Scorpio

Can we please stop talking about the IST's now? Their stats are no longer the generally acknowledged rules for them, and you would just have to make do with the warrior acolytes. IST's are currently just a figment of the past, and what we need to do is to accept that fact and move on with life.

On topic: after seeing how much components were squeezed onto the various spruces, makes me have very good feelings for potential SoB intricacy. If I remember correctly, didn't Gav Thorpe (I may have remembered wrong) say one of the biggest problem in sisters was the flowing shoulder sashes? couldn't it be possible that the should sashes would be molded separately from the arms, so that the modeler would be able to decided what sashes could be used where.


----------



## jimbo1701

Can anyone confirm about Mordraks ghost knights for me:

How many per squad?
What upgrades can you have?
How many points per model?

In the leak, it was the same options and squad size as a regular termie squad, but 20% cheaper. I think I read somewhere that that has now changed to the same point cost, 5 man limit and no options. Can anyone confirm? Cheers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

jimbo1701 said:


> Can anyone confirm about Mordraks ghost knights for me:
> 
> How many per squad?
> What upgrades can you have?
> How many points per model?
> 
> In the leak, it was the same options and squad size as a regular termie squad, but 20% cheaper. I think I read somewhere that that has now changed to the same point cost, 5 man limit and no options. Can anyone confirm? Cheers.


Mordrak has to be with them until they all die.
If Mordrak takes a wound, roll D3 at end of phase, if same or greater than remaining wounds one more knight joins the unit. These extra knights come with default wargear.
If Mordrak dies so do all the ghost knights.
You can take 1 group of 1-5, 40pt per model
Any model can take:
You can change sword for Halberd or Daemon Hammer for free
Pair of Nemesis Falchions for 5pt
One model can replace sword for Nrotherhood Banner for 25pt


----------



## jimbo1701

MadCowCrazy said:


> Mordrak has to be with them until they all die.
> If Mordrak takes a wound, roll D3 at end of phase, if same or greater than remaining wounds one more knight joins the unit. These extra knights come with default wargear.
> If Mordrak dies so do all the ghost knights.
> You can take 1 group of 1-5, 40pt per model
> Any model can take:
> You can change sword for Halberd or Daemon Hammer for free
> Pair of Nemesis Falchions for 5pt
> One model can replace sword for Brotherhood Banner for 25pt


Cheers MCC - was trying to decide whether or not to invest in some clear resin and a molding kit to make some awesome clear ghost knight - for a max of 10 I could have justified the cost, but at (effectively) 5 max I think I may just buy a normal box and paint them LoTR style.


----------



## Azezel

Scorpio said:


> On topic: after seeing how much components were squeezed onto the various spruces, makes me have very good feelings for potential SoB intricacy. If I remember correctly, didn't Gav Thorpe (I may have remembered wrong) say one of the biggest problem in sisters was the flowing shoulder sashes? couldn't it be possible that the should sashes would be molded separately from the arms, so that the modeler would be able to decided what sashes could be used where.


Jes Goodwin, actually at the Dark Eldar launch event. And since the matter has come up a few times in the last half dozen pages, it seems worthwhile to repost thee following, which is the most up-to-date information we have concerning plastic Sisters _in kit form_. Various people have sighted what seem to be test sculpts and concepts, but as Jes sais, they've been tinkering for five years and these sightings are probably related to that.

All bolding is mine.



StraghtSilver said:


> Yes the problem with the Sisters of Battle has been the cloth robe sleeves on the under side of their arms, their hair and also the script work on their shoulders.
> 
> The problem with the robes on their arms is that it can only be sculpted flowing in one direction, which means posing can be a problem.
> 
> This isn't such an issue with Sisters armed with Bolt Guns as the pose will be pretty much set, but when you get things like Seraphim or models armed with close combat weapons you would get a very limited number of poses. This is because if you had the arm held up high the robes may stick out in a gravity defying way, which would look very unnatural.
> 
> The hair is essentially the same thing. They want the new models to be much more dynamic, which would mean their hair would not be as static as the previous Sisters of Battle miniatures. This poses problems with posing as the hair and robes need to flow in the same direction, which again limits the amount of poses possible (sorry for the over use of the word pose there - couldn't think of another on! ).
> 
> The bit I didn't quite get the gist of was the shoulder plates. He said they wanted embossed and rolling scriptwork on the shoulder plates, and the way it was curving around the plates was presenting problems. I'm not sure in all honesty what that meant but it may be similar to the problems mentioned above or it might be the way the model is cast. It might be the fact that you are very limited in undercuts on a tool when producing plastic miniatures ( by tool I mean mold, but plastic molds are known as tools).
> 
> He did stress that they really wanted to *crack on with Sisters*, but that they had been causing them technical difficulties for *quite some time*.
> 
> However he said that the process of creating the Dark Eldar has really pushed the limits of what they can do in plastic, and has taught them a huge amount.
> 
> Many of the problems mentioned above (hair, robes etc) were the same for the Dark Eldar, but they learnt how to manage it and would now like to take those lessons back to the Sisters.
> 
> Something else that was interesting was that he said the way he has always worked up until now was to alternate between Space Marines and something else.
> 
> For example Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Marines, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Eldar etc.
> 
> However he said quite explicitly that he _wouldn't be working on Space Marines after Dark Eldar_. This was because he feels he has handed them on to other sculptors now and wanted to do something else, *but of course it depended on what GW wanted him to do next*.
> 
> He also categorically stated that he *wouldn't be working on any Warhammer models from now on*, although admittedly he hasn't done so for a long time.
> 
> So this is pure speculation on my part (so please don't take it as read as I am just thinking aloud - nothing was confirmed), but if he isn't working on Fantasy next then he will be working on something 40K.
> 
> It won't be Marines and Tyranids have been updated recently.
> 
> *Speculatively that only really leaves CraftWorld Eldar or Sisters next*.
> 
> He did say that working on Dark Eldar had reignited his enthusiasm for Craft World Eldar, and that he wanted to revisit the range so he could implement a lot of the lessons they learned with Dark Eldar and we know that he sculpted the Craft World Eldar Jetbikes and the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes simultaneously so *Eldar is a possibility*.
> 
> But if his normal working process is Power Armour, Xenos, Power Armour, something else etc and he has just released Dark Eldar then it follows that Sisters ought to be next.
> 
> Now for the bad news. He told me that after working on Dark Eldar solidly for more than 4 years (as well as other projects) he was already exhausted. However there was *still more work to do on the Dark Eldar Range and he would be working on them until June 2011* so that 90% of the range could be released by then.
> 
> *He then said that he would be taking a long rest before starting any other projects.* I am not sure how long a rest that would be but I would suspect at least a couple of months.
> 
> Jes isn't just a sculptor, he is also the head of the GW plastics department, and is involved in the training of staff and development of new tecnology.
> 
> It may be that when he takes a break from sculpting he concentrates on this area of his job.
> 
> *Either way this means that he wouldn't be starting a new project until at the earliest July/August 2011.*
> 
> *It sounds like R and D has already begun on the Sisters*, and if they have learnt a great deal during the Dark Eldar development and can put this into practice then they shouldn't take too long, but I would guess that we wouldn't see them at the very earliest until Quarter 1 2012, but more realistically later that year.
> 
> Again this is just my speculation based on the conversation I had with Jes.
> 
> *They are most definitely working on Sisters, but it may be a while before we see them.*





StraightSilver said:


> Well he told me that he would be *working solidly on Dark Eldar until June 2011.*
> 
> They have 4 plastic kits to release for Dark Eldar next year, as well as metal figures and then possibly some of the character models.
> 
> Obviously he won't be doing all the work on his own as Juan Diaz is also doing some of the models.
> 
> He did say that they are on the final push but still have a lot of things to do.
> 
> One of which was the Haemonculi passengers for the raider. The Wyches will be included with the Venom and can be used on the raider, but they didn't know yet how to do the Haemonculi. It wasn't so much a problem of creating them, just what to release them with. My guess would be with the Talos.
> 
> However he was confident he could take a break from June 2011 onwards as this is when they plan to stop work on the Dark Eldar.
> 
> *The Sisters of battle have been in "design hell" since before the dark Eldar, so at least 4-5 years.*
> 
> *They have started the initial planning but it was the aspects mentioned earlier that had caused them to be put on hold.*
> 
> The implication was that these problems may have now been resolved with the dark Eldar Wyches, as a lot of these problems were exactly the same for them.
> 
> However with next year's 40K schedule already full up and with Jes wanting a break from a new range I would say thay are at least a year off.
> 
> If rumours are correct we have Grey Knights Quarter 1, Flyers expansion Quarter 2 and Tau/Necrons (my money is on Tau as I know they have already completed many of the new plastics and that Necrons are getting the Dark Eldar treatment. In other words a rewrite which will take a while) in Quarter 4.
> 
> This doesn't rule out another 40K release next year, I just got the impression that it wouldn't be Sisters.





ArmouredWing said:


> Because the weekend was the grand release of the DE they'd got a bit of an event on at Warhammer World store both Sat & Sun. Saturday saw a meet and greet appearance from Jes Goodwin himself and Phoenix Knight and myself had a wander down to the store to get PK's new CE signed as well as me getting my C:WH signed as well.
> 
> It was a good chat, mainly focussed on the DE stuff but I thought I'd take the opportunity to do some digging on if there was any sisters stuff in the pipeline and perhaps some plastic sisters. Jes' response that the biggest problem that they faced with transfering sisters to plastic was maintaining the level of detail that the metals currently have (something we knew generally to be the case) but with the new technology it may finally be possible. *That said there's 12-18 months work that needs to be done to make this happen and currently they aren't even in the process of this happening.* So the long and short there? at least 2012 by the looks of things.
> 
> He also made a comment in relation to the amount of DE stuff being released over the next 6 months. the plan is that by halfway through next year 90% of the DE codex will be available to buy. With that in mind I'm more convinced now that if GK are next (which I'll come onto in a moment) then it's going to be late spring at the earliest.
> 
> So, that was the Saturday. Sunday also saw a special guest in WW. *Mr Phil 'the Power' Kelly* was present in store to do a bit less of a formal meet and greet and so in PK's absence I went in to get our codecies signed and also take advantage of having a bit of a chat (he was sat painting in store and I don't think many people picked up on who he was). So, having chatted a bit about DE I passed him my C:WH to sign and we had a brief chat again about sisters and* his comments pretty much matched what Jes had said the day before although he was a lot more ceratin that we would eventually see plastic sisters...just not yet.* He did say though that some work had started on sisters and there is something in the pipeline but it's going to be a while before we see anything come to the surface.
> 
> I then asked him how the GK was going. Again he said that there was some work underway but that's about as much as he could say (although this was also accompanied by a crafty grin which indicated that there was more he'd like to say but couldn't).
> 
> So there you go, not much to go on but at least it appears that we haven't been forsaken altogether.



To condense all of that: We are as certain as we can ever be that Sisters are coming, and in plastic. That Jes Goodwin wants to make the models sensational (and if anyone can...) and that he is confident that the problems are soluable.

However, going purely on what we know/have been told, rather than speculation 'could be' and hope, Sisters are more than one year away.


Now, I grant it's posible that the team started sculpting the day after Jes said those things. We know he's busy, but he's not the only sculpter. It's certainly possible to hammer out a new plastic kit inside twelve months and it may happen. I'd like that a lot.

Until we know more though, it's at best optimistic to assume that that 12-18 month clock will start ticking until July or so. The above certainly implies that Sisters will be sculpted by Jes, and I for one could stand to wait a little longer if it means getting a better result in the end.

Look at the new GK plastics. Very nice, but I think we all expected something more.

Keep the faith.


----------



## Judas Masias

I might be asking a dumb question here but does Draigo D3 ability affect the hole army like they all have scout or is it just D3 units?


----------



## alex567

for those that dont know the inquisitorial henchmen wont be troops until the faq comes out, its a bit of a bummer, so let me expain, coreaz makes the henchmen troops, but the henchmen rule sais that they dont take u a force orgenisation chart, so basicaly in short they dont count towards your mimimum requirment, and for those that say you need two troops, you dont you need two troop CHOICES and by that i mean that they HAVE to fill up a slot on the force orgenisation chart, unfortunatly matt doesnt word his rules very well so officialy the henchmen rule still counts when they become troops, the upside is that you can take unlimited of them, most people will allow you to take them as troops or in an army, but any one can justifyadly say there not playing you, and they can stop you playing in any tornamens, hopefully this will be faq'ed but you cannot simp-ly over ride the rule, without opponants permision of cource


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Judas Masias said:


> I might be asking a dumb question here but does Draigo D3 ability affect the hole army like they all have scout or is it just D3 units?


You roll D3 and the number you get is how many units you can grant one of the 4 abilities. They all have to take the same ability as well.

So if you roll a 2 (3-4 on a D6) you can chose any 2 units (within the restrictions) in your army and give them both the same special rule.
Like giving a Dreadknight and some Terminators the scout rule for instance so you can outflank or do a scout move at the start of the game.


----------



## alex567

any one thought of how it would work if we had two grand masters?
im guessing that you woud get to choose two different rules that way across two lots of d3, but would you be able to give a unit two different rules?


----------



## boreas

Actually, people are overcomplicating this. The actual Lord of Formosa rule:

"Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are troop choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army."

So, henchmen are troop choices. they can fill you basic slots. 

Henchmen are not restricted by the number of Inquisitors. They are still limited by FOC though, so maximum 6 warbands.

Seems pretty clearcut to me.

Phil


----------



## Judas Masias

I found this on 3++ is the new black. Mind you it's a long one But it does shed some light on Grey Knight Psychic Powers.

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/armies-in-5th-psychic-powers-grey.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+3IsTheNewBlackKirbYourEnthusiasm+%283%2B%2B+is+the+new+black.+%7C+Kirb+your+enthusiasm%21%29

*Armies in 5th: Psychic Powers: Grey Knights *

Yay Armies in 5th is back! Grey Knights are one of the premier psychic armies in the fluff and they now have the powers and playability to back it up. For the most part, the across the board psychic powers aren't super scary. They are certainly annoying, effective and useful for the Grey Knights payer, but this is factored into the codex design. As for the psychic powers you only get on characters, well they are a different story and there are some very good ones. All in all most Grey Knight armies will have a lot of psychic powers to use every game (including mass force weapons) and whilst psychic defense isn't mandatory, it's going to really annoy Grey Knight players.

As a Grey Knight player it's important to remember a couple of things. Psychic defenses which make perils more likely (i.e. Runes of Warding) are really bad for your tanks and squads (less so your characters who have invuls). You don't want to be damaging your own tanks for your opponent (it's only a glance you say but I'm sure the Razorback enjoyed having its turret blown off) and losing your squad leader can often hurt the overall leadership of the unit (I.e. Grey Knights). Even in a normal game you're going to likely suffer perils at some point. It is quite likely you'll cast 20+ powers in a game depending upon your build. You have been warned!

We'll start with the army wide powers first. Whilst not all of these powers are available on all units, they are pretty readily accessible. 

Fortitude - 

This is a vehicle based psychic power and thanks to Psychic Pilot, always cast at Ld10. What Fortitude does is allow a vehicle to ignore Crew Stunned and Shaken results. This obviously helps make the Grey Knight army very hard to suppress in terms of both shooting and moving and what often wants to be suppressed (back field shooting) will generally be out of range of psychic defenses. Even Rhinos greatly enjoy the use of this power as passengers can still utilise the top hatch most effectively. For an extra five points per vehicle, this is an excellent power. Importantly this power is cast during your turn after your opponent has done all his shooting. Even with psychic defense your opponent has to consider their suppression hasn't worked and rather focus fire to ensure vehicles don't move or shoot because they are dead (or weapon destroyed/immobed).

In short: fortitude is the anti-thesis to suppression fire.

Hammerhand -

A lot of old Daemonhunter players are complaining about the lack of S6 nemesis force weapons. Whilst S6 in combat was awesome I'd rather have mass force weapons in my army thanks. S4 power weapons however aren't that scary, even if they are at I6 thanks to Halbreds. Hammerhand helps here. Whilst it doesn't boost Grey Knights to the vaunted WS5/S6 of the Daemonhunters codex, WS4/S5 force weapons are still pretty good. What's important is this bonus is applied before you double your strength for Daemon Hammers as well. Yes, those babies are now S10.

Something very important to remember about hammerhand though is if you use it, you cannot use your force weapon ability (or any other squad based abilities you might have). However, attached characters can cast it and have the whole unit benefit whilst the unit can still use another power or their force weapons. The same can be said in reverse. Think very carefully before you pick which power you want to use then as there are certain situations in which one is better than the other.

Dark Excommunication -

Nothing fancy here. Another kick in the face to Chaos Daemon armies as they lose gifts but hey, it's not like they were good before right?

Psychic Communion -

This is perhaps one of my most favorite powers of all time. All. Time. Psychic communion gives Grey Knight players significant ability to control their reserves, particularly as the modifications can be made after the dice have been rolled. You can therefore take advantage of a good roll or minimise the damage of a bad roll. On an average roll you can go either way and the major implication here is it stacks. No FAQ needed. It says so explicitly.

As a simple utility spell this is amazing. You can reserve deny your army to take advantage of the mission or minimise the damage your opponent can do whilst ensuring you don't come on in waves (one of the biggest disadvantages of reserving). You can also try and build an army around this but eh, not so flash. Importantly though you can run a couple of units as delayed reserves to pick up objectives in your backline whilst your main army pushes forward. The same principle can be used to ensure offensive deep-strikers come in when they are needed by either delaying them or bringing them forward. Either way the ability to manipulate your reserves as you see fit is very powerful.

This power is found only in the HQ section but a lot of units can take it including Grand Masters, Inquisitors, Brother Captains and quite a few special characters. Unfortunately the caster of this power needs to be on the table for the army to benefit. This makes it difficult to create a reserve based army and can be risky to reserve deny your army for more than a single turn. 

Let's now take a look at the more character specific, i.e. Librarian, powers and we'll follow that up with psychic powers only really seen on one or two units.

Shrouding -

Remember the Stealth Pants thoughts when the latest BRB FAQ was released? Well now we've got a Stealth Marquee. Shrouding provides all units within 6" of the caster with the Stealth special rule (6+ cover in the open or +1 to cover save). With the standard cover save being 4+ this brings it down to a very impressive 3+; storm shields for everyone against shooting! This makes Grey Knights in midfield even more daunting to remove and can be combined with Purifiers and Sanctuary to get both good shooting and assault defenses in place. What's particularly good about Shrouding is it affects vehicles as well. By using smoke/terrain and mech training, Shrouding can provide a lot of 3+ cover saves on vehicles. Combined with Fortitude this makes vehicles very resistant to lasting damage. 

Sanctuary -

Coatez and the Librarian have access to this power which is an excellent defensive spell. Essentially sanctuary is a 12" area of dangerous terrain for units attempting to make assaults (that 12" means even cavalry and beasts are getting hit). This can make assaulting a bit more unreliable (snake eyes! curses) and cause damage to any incoming units. Importantly, armies without assault grenades will find themselves always at I1 against an army which can effectively use sanctuary *kicks Tyranids in the face again.*

A particularly nasty combination for sanctuary is with Purifiers and Cleansing flame. Because Cleansing flame happens before attacks are made, the combination of dangerous terrain and cleansing flame can cause a lot of damage to units before they even get to attack. Add in Purifiers generally being pretty good in assault with a bunch of I6 force weapons, and assaulting the front line of a Grey Knight army can be a daunting prospect.

Smite -

See Space Marine Psychic Power review. It's the same. Still not worth it.

Might of Titan - 

In editions past Librarians were beastly combat monsters thanks to powers like this. However, these powers generally focused on them and that didn't change with the transition from 4th to 5th. Librarians did though and they don't have the statline or defenses to be so beastly anymore. Matt Ward figured this out and this spell provides +1 Strength and an additional D6 vehicle penetration to a whole unit. No longer is the Librarian attacking at high strength values but the whole squad is.

Importantly Might also stacks with Hammerhand so your basic Grey Knight has got his S6 back! A bunch of S6 attacks are very useful in dropping tanks and particularly help against Dreadnoughts in combat (which is a more likely scenario than usual due to a general lack of melta in the army). Also being able to reliably wound other MEQs and high T creatures if highly important. Since the Librarian is also capable of casting both of these powers, the unit itself is free to use their Force Weapons which is very likely to help against the high Toughness units.

Quicksilver -

A similar power to above, this is a unit buffing power but rather than focusing on hitting power, Quicksilver improves a unit's speed (initiative). No this doesn't mean your Hammers are now I10 but rather a squad can ensure they get their hits in and attempt to reduce damage by limiting the number of attacks available to their opponent. Particularly 'weak' combat units such as normal Grey Knights can take advantage of this as they are unlikely to be equipped with Halbreds due to their 1A base.

This can be combined with Grey Knight Terminators to ensure they have a 4++ in combat. Halberds are generally a better combat choice because I6 force weapons are pretty scary but a 4++ in combat is very nice to have as well. By using Quicksilver on a GKT unit, the Libby is able to forego the opportunity cost in picking between a Halberd and the normal Force Sword. Unfortunately this can only be done for one unit (unless you take two Librarians) and isn't always going to succeed (whilst Halbreds are always I6).

Summoning -

This power is very different to Gate of Infinity from Space Marines. Rather than moving the Librarian's unit, Summoning allows other units to be moved to the Librarian's location. A teleport homer/location beacon is needed though to ensure silly mishaps don't send units to their doom. What's great about this power is you can be very aggressive with a squad(s) and pull them back to safety as needed (assuming they aren't locked in combat). At the same time you can also use this power to pull Troops onto objectives or even pull slower units up to where the Librarian is (i.e. Libby in Stormraven). Summoning essentially adds another dimension to your movement phase. Take maximum advantage of this.

This can also be used on vehicles with the upgrade Warp Stablisation field but they count as having moved flat out. No warping in vehicles for side shots! That being said, being able to warp Land Raiders across the field or un-do outflank failures (this also works on infantry) combined with teleporters can put a lot of pressure on your opponent very quickly.

Vortex of Doom -

Another copy/paste from the Space Marine codex. Since Grey Knight Librarians come with Terminator Armor standard, Vortex can always be cast and can be combined with Servo Skulls for minimal scatter. At the same time the power is still limited by ranged and when it perils, can have a nasty effect on your models (and no 3++ storm shields to save you!).

Warp Rift -

Just in case there weren't enough 'remove from play' spells going around, Warp Rift is another one. Rift is an initiative removal based template which targets units rather than models. Nothing really spectacular though it's interesting to see yet another "go home W6!" ability.

That's the Librarian powers down so we're going to look at the more specific powers accessible by only one or two units throughout the book.


Cleansing Flame (Crowe/Purifiers) -

This power has already been discussed in relation to Sanctuary and is an excellent horde control power for Purifiers. Since it happens at the start of the assault phase, using it against high I (6+) opponents can minimise the number of attacks the Purifiers have to suffer. It's important to remember the effectiveness of this spell is based on how many models are in the opposing unit and it can be used against multiple units to full effect. Get these guys into multiple horde units!

Whilst it is excellent against units with lots of models and low saves, some some basic thought needs to go into which power should be used (cleansing, hammerhand or force weapons) against particular opponents. MEQs don't really care about cleansing for example whilst TWC don't care and hate force weapons, etc..


Santified Flame (Draigo) -

It's a S5 template with no AP. Yay.

Heroic Sacrifice (Crowe/Brotherhood Champion) - 

High WS on both of these characters means you have a 67% chance of taking any single model in base to base contact with your dying IC to the grave with you. It's a bit of a laugh but nothing really worth taking these guys for and it also means you weren't using hammerhand or your force weapon ability that turn. I'd rather be able to kill things than hopefully take something to the gave with me when I died.

Warp Quake (Grey Knight Strike & Interceptor Squads) - 

This is basically the mystic replacement for Grey Knights. Whilst you don't get free shooting phases at deep-striking units, you can disrupt an opponent's ability to reliably deepstrike and automatically cause any mishaps in a 12" area around the squad. This is a huge "fudgemuffin off" sign to deep-striking armies and really hurts the likes of Daemons, Duke and Jumper based lists. Even against token deep-striking units, Warp Quake provides the Grey Knight army with a buffer normally provided by bubble-warp against deep-striking units.

Astral Aim (Purgation) -

A mini-Hive Guard or Smart Missile System power, this allows Purgation squads to hide and fire to a very high effect without needing to see their target. Unfortunately unlike Hive Guard and SMS, this always grants an unmodifiable cover save. Use in conjunction with mobile cover such as Rhinos to protect Purgation squads from incoming fire and when clear fire lanes open up, move the mobile cover so the Purgation squad doesn't need to use Astral Aim and automatically provide a cover save. Even when stationary Rhinos can be used to do this whilst Astral Aim is used to provide firepower as the army advances.

Holocaust (Paladins) -

S5 5" blast, no AP, 12". Nothing to write home about.

Reconstruction (Techmarine) -

At Ld8 this isn't a super reliable power but since Techmarines are finally IC's and a bunch of other goodies, Tehcmarines should see some use. With Fortitude already making vehicles very resistant to shaken and stunned results, a Techmarine with reconstruction can help remove weapon destroyed and immobilised results. With reconstruction cast and a servo-harness, it's a 75% chance in fact for this to happen which is pretty good! If you don't kill the tank, it's going to come back and get you!

Zone of Banishment (Stern) - 

Affecting your own models is pretty lame but if you find Stern (wait; you're using him?) all alone he can take down a bunch of weaklings. More powers which can insta-remove W6/T6 models though...poor Tyranids.

Psychic Barrage (Psyker Henchmen) -

This is a love/hate relationship. On one hand you have a large blast power very similar to PBS from Imperial Guard but importantly both the strength and AP depend upon the model count. This means you can get a S10 AP1 blast and combined with servo skulls on the rare occasion, well that S10 AP1 blast scatters D6-3". Wow! Otherwise you have a pretty scary large blast template which can be cast from a Fortitude Rhino. Now for the hate...Ld 8 makes it unreliable and a single perils on this unit wipes them out unlike PBS. 


------------------------------------------

And there you have it folks, a very long list of psychic powers available to a very psychic based army. Once again, whilst psychic defenses are not necessary they can give a Grey Knight player fits as many lists might rely on the army wide systems such as Hammerhand and Fortitude too much. Very few of the powers are 'in your face awesome' but there is a lot of utility to be had by having access to so many varied psychic powers across multiple vessels.

Sure hope I haven't missed anything...


----------



## alex567

boreas said:


> Actually, people are overcomplicating this. The actual Lord of Formosa rule:
> 
> "Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are troop choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army."
> 
> So, henchmen are troop choices. they can fill you basic slots.
> 
> Henchmen are not restricted by the number of Inquisitors. They are still limited by FOC though, so maximum 6 warbands.
> 
> Seems pretty clearcut to me.
> 
> Phil


But they dont take up a force orgenisation slot as requid for them to be your requid troop unit, i am for hem being troops but if a tornament sais other wise you cant blame them, the line for the henchmen goes as follows: 
"For each inqisitor in your army you may include 3 to twelve henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. *these do not use up a force organisation slot."*

the corteaz one goes as follows:
"Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are troop choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army."

They dont contradict each other in any way, but the wording is bad, the idea is their but an idea doesnt justify what is written, you cannot just over ride a rull because you think that this is what was ment when somebody else might think differently, the rules say that yes they are troops choices so they can capture objectives, and their is no limit to how many you can take, but the other rule sais that they do not take up force orgenisation slots, until the faq comes out people are quite in their right mind to say no to you useing them.


----------



## Slinky

My take is that not taking up a force org chart slot as per the second sentence only applies to the units bought for an inquisitor under the first sentence, not to those bought under Coteaz's rule.


----------



## alex567

Slinky said:


> My take is that not taking up a force org chart slot as per the second sentence only applies to the units bought for an inquisitor under the first sentence, not to those bought under Coteaz's rule.


but no where does it say it replaces it so they would be troops but not force chart troops


----------



## boreas

Exactly. 

These warbands (meaning those bought by having a "generic" inquisitor) don't take a FOC. But those bought by Coteaz do take one. It could have been wording a bit more precisely, but sometime I think people at GW must roll their eyes thinking "Jeez, can't people just play the game without having a semantic debate about regular phrases" 

My question, though, would be: If you get Coteaz, can you still add a single out-of-FOC warband for another generic =I= in the same list?

Phil


----------



## Champion Alaric

Wow 500. Well done all. But seriously this thread is a friggin magnet for arguments! :hang1:

and its too bad GK lost their PW..


----------



## RedemptionNL

alex567 said:


> but no where does it say it replaces it so they would be troops but not force chart troops


Nowhere does it say that if a unit does not use up a slot, it doesn't count to the minimum required. Quite in the contrary, the rulebook only states that these kind of units don't count for the maximum, unlike dedicated transports, which are said to completely fall outside of the force organisation chart.

That this is intended behaviour is apparant from the Black Templar's Emperor's Champion, which entry says:

_The Emperor's champion does NOT use up an HQ slot on force organisation chart._

Not the words 'using up' and 'slot', which are the same used as the Henchmen entry.

Now, from the Black Templar FAQ (not the errata, so it's an explanation instead of a rule change):

_Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one_
_compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army? (p31)_
_A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is_
_still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ_
_requirement._

So either way, even if they don't take up the maximum slots, they'd still count for the minimum. Now if they take up the maximum slots when takes as Troops is a different matter altogether, and indeed less clear cut.


----------



## Dagmire

Where does it say that a unit that does not take up a force org can not score?
AS far as i know only troops can hold objectives. thats the only stipulation, not wether they are part of the force org or not...


----------



## The Mad Hatter

Judas Masias said:


> Summoning -
> 
> This power is very different to Gate of Infinity from Space Marines. Rather than moving the Librarian's unit, Summoning allows other units to be moved to the Librarian's location. A teleport homer/location beacon is needed though to ensure silly mishaps don't send units to their doom. What's great about this power is you can be very aggressive with a squad(s) and pull them back to safety as needed (assuming they aren't locked in combat). At the same time you can also use this power to pull Troops onto objectives or even pull slower units up to where the Librarian is (i.e. Libby in Stormraven). Summoning essentially adds another dimension to your movement phase. Take maximum advantage of this.
> 
> This can also be used on vehicles with the upgrade Warp Stablisation field but they count as having moved flat out. No warping in vehicles for side shots! That being said, being able to warp Land Raiders across the field or un-do outflank failures (this also works on infantry) combined with teleporters can put a lot of pressure on your opponent very quickly.


Actually, I would like that Summoning works with the libby's teleport homer, but there's no mention about the fact that it would work through teleport (teleport homer requirement). Even if fluffy-wise it works through the warp, as teleport does, RAW-wise I suppose it is not allowed (I hope to be wrong, obviously).


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

OK, qestion, may I take 3 libbies DS them in the First turn, then summon two dreads and sqad of something?. Or put them in SR go 24" and then cast summon?


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> OK, qestion, may I take 3 libbies DS them in the First turn, then summon two dreads and sqad of something?. Or put them in SR go 24" and then cast summon?


no because your pnly allowed two hq's for one and i think that they already have to be on the bored, to use it. (done before movement)

ok guys i had a look through the rulebook and whether they fill up the force orgenisation chart or not they are still from the troop section and that is all that is requird. The rulebook sais you need two troops and one hq minimum well they are troops and it doesnt say anything about them having to actualy count on the force orgenisation chart. so if people are gonna be iffy about the wording the rule book sais that they are, oh and people that say "you had the problem" i was only trying to sort out a debate beetween me and my friend i was on the side of the troops and he was opposed to it, and people who say "oh theres to much arguing", theres nothing wrong with a healthy debate aslong as it isnt just attacking people.


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

OK 3 libby was stupid... and another point also resonable. Thank's for Answer. Oki, another qestion: what is max. distance to go if I wan't charge in 1 turn?. 12 deployment 12 fly and 6 charge? 30"?


----------



## alex567

Aegir Einarsson said:


> OK 3 libby was stupid... and another point also resonable. Thank's for Answer. Oki, another qestion: what is max. distance to go if I wan't charge in 1 turn?. 12 deployment 12 fly and 6 charge? 30"?


30"? are you on about the interceptors? if you are then i would recomend the following:
grand master- give the unit scout, in your scout move use your shunt jump so you are 30" towards your enemy, then use your 12" movement in your first turn to get close then charge, if you dont get first turn then put the rule somewhere else and save your shunt jump


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## RedemptionNL

For a Stormraven, it depends what it is carrying:
The absolute maximum would be deploy sideways 12" + rotate base 0.6" + 12" fly + 2" disembark + base size of model + 6" charge.
So for a model with terminator armour in a Stormraven, you can get the maximum of around 34" from your table's edge. 

For Interceptor Squads or Dreadknights with Personal Teleports and Scouts from a Grand Master, it would be 12" deploy, 12" scout move, 12" move, 6" assault, or 42" from your table's edge. If shunting is allowed during the scout move, which I don't think it is but entirely sure, that would be upped to 60".


----------



## MadCowCrazy

By going by the Black Templar FAQ you could field an unlimited amount of Henchmen, they dont take up FOC slots but they count towards the minimum of 2 Troops if you have more than 2 and they are all scoring.

It's just so frustrating that GWs wording always sucks, you can find problems within minutes of reading a new codex. This one isn't even out yet and we have already found a few problems with it.

Here is a question about Librarians and Mastery levels. Master level tells you how many psychic powers you can use per turn, if I have a lvl 3 Libby can I then use the summoning 3 times in 1 turn or only once per turn having to use something else for the remaining 2.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

RedemptionNL said:


> For Interceptor Squads or Dreadknights with Personal Teleports and Scouts from a Grand Master, it would be 12" deploy, 12" scout move, 12" move, 6" assault, or 42" from your table's edge. If shunting is allowed during the scout move, which I don't think it is but entirely sure, that would be upped to 60".


Why not? It allows to make a move of 30" instead of normal movement. I do not see what's against.



alex567 said:


> no because your pnly allowed two hq's for one and i think that they already have to be on the bored, to use it. (done before movement)


Yes, but DS is described as a deployment, that comes before any movement (movements that in this case are denied, apart from disembarking). Summoning, instead, works at the beginning of the Libby movement phase, that is immediately after he has been deployed.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a question about Librarians and Mastery levels. Master level tells you how many psychic powers you can use per turn, if I have a lvl 3 Libby can I then use the summoning 3 times in 1 turn or only once per turn having to use something else for the remaining 2.


Eheh, it would be cool, but I've always heard that is forbidden unless specified (I don't remember who had this bonus, maybe Arhiman?)


----------



## alex567

RedemptionNL said:


> For a Stormraven, it depends what it is carrying:
> The absolute maximum would be deploy sideways 12" + rotate base 0.6" + 12" fly + 2" disembark + base size of model + 6" charge.
> So for a model with terminator armour in a Stormraven, you can get the maximum of around 34" from your table's edge.
> 
> For Interceptor Squads or Dreadknights with Personal Teleports and Scouts from a Grand Master, it would be 12" deploy, 12" scout move, 12" move, 6" assault, or 42" from your table's edge. If shunting is allowed during the scout move, which I don't think it is but entirely sure, that would be upped to 60".


The rule book faq said that biokes could turbo boost in the scout move and gain the cover save for boosting, i dont see why they wouldnt allow it because the danger is the unit could die before it even starts the game, theres no reason realy not to allow it.



MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a question about Librarians and Mastery levels. Master level tells you how many psychic powers you can use per turn, if I have a lvl 3 Libby can I then use the summoning 3 times in 1 turn or only once per turn having to use something else for the remaining 2.


Yeah because its not a shooting attack so it can be done more then once, but when using stuff like hamemrhand it can be used multiply times but i dont believe that you could stack the powers, thats what might of the titan s for. so you could multiwarp units across the bored on one turn, do remember though if they cant be placed they mishap and they have to be placed within 6" of the libby so the more units the less space.


----------



## Mathai

Can you put the Warp Stabalization thingies on Dreadnoughts? And if so, what are your opinions on what it can do after that? (Since Walkers have different move/shoot rules)

Also, if the vehicle is only counting as having moved flat out when 'summoned' does that mean a Land Raider still has its Machine Spirits shots and the assault vehicle rules in effect?

Oh, also. I thought you couldnt put Terminators in a Storm Raven. Was that just my misconception and I can start redoing my force organizing ideas to include flying Termies?

Edit: Ok I rememberred that moving flat out means you cant get out of the vehicle, so assaulting from a summoned vehicle is out. But then I also thought how moving flat out grants a cover save for those vehicles. So does summoning do that as well then?


----------



## RedemptionNL

The Mad Hatter said:


> Why not? It allows to make a move of 30" instead of normal movement. I do not see what's against.





alex567 said:


> The rule book faq said that biokes could turbo boost in the scout move and gain the cover save for boosting, i dont see why they wouldnt allow it because the danger is the unit could die before it even starts the game, theres no reason realy not to allow it.


I believe someone mentioned the final GK codex says that the shunt move wouldn't be allowed during the Scout move. I haven't seen it confirmed by a second source though. Anyone that has (seen) the codex want to verify? If it's not in the GK codex, there would indeed be nothing stopping you from using it on your scout move.


----------



## Judas Masias

Well the rules for the Storm Raven say nothing about weather it can or cannot transport Terminators. So i would say go for it.


----------



## Synack

RedemptionNL said:


> I believe someone mentioned the final GK codex says that the shunt move wouldn't be allowed during the Scout move. I haven't seen it confirmed by a second source though. Anyone that has (seen) the codex want to verify? If it's not in the GK codex, there would indeed be nothing stopping you from using it on your scout move.


Just looked, there is no such rule stating it. Imho, it's a valid move that can be used in the scout move.


----------



## alex567

Mathai said:


> Can you put the Warp Stabalization thingies on Dreadnoughts? And if so, what are your opinions on what it can do after that? (Since Walkers have different move/shoot rules)
> 
> Also, if the vehicle is only counting as having moved flat out when 'summoned' does that mean a Land Raider still has its Machine Spirits shots and the assault vehicle rules in effect?
> 
> Oh, also. I thought you couldnt put Terminators in a Storm Raven. Was that just my misconception and I can start redoing my force organizing ideas to include flying Termies?


The vehicle follows the same rules for deep striking so a dreadnought can stll shoot and a land raider moves flat out,he can still machine spirit yes, and you can put termies in a storm raven, in fact you can put anything in a storm raven that will fit, because its not dedicated so it can take paladins with draigo if you want.:biggrin:


----------



## RedemptionNL

Mathai said:


> Can you put the Warp Stabalization thingies on Dreadnoughts? And if so, what are your opinions on what it can do after that? (Since Walkers have different move/shoot rules)


It has the option to take Warp Stabalisation Fields, yes. It's basically the same as podding, so you can't move, can shoot or run, but can't assault.



> Also, if the vehicle is only counting as having moved flat out when 'summoned' does that mean a Land Raider still has its Machine Spirits shots and the assault vehicle rules in effect?


Vehicles count as having move at Cruising speed. So yeah, a Landraider would still be able to fire one weapon with PotMS. As for assaulting after Deep Striking, I'm inclined to say no, as the Assault Ramp rules for the Stormraven and the Landraiders in the Blood Angel codex says they can't Assault on the turn they entered via Deep Strike.



> Oh, also. I thought you couldnt put Terminators in a Storm Raven. Was that just my misconception and I can start redoing my force organizing ideas to include flying Termies?


They fit fine, they just take up 2 slots like in a Landraider, so you can take a maximum of 6. Same goes for jump infantry.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

RedemptionNL said:


> I believe someone mentioned the final GK codex says that the shunt move wouldn't be allowed during the Scout move. I haven't seen it confirmed by a second source though. Anyone that has (seen) the codex want to verify? If it's not in the GK codex, there would indeed be nothing stopping you from using it on your scout move.


Ehm, I have read the codex, several times :wink:



RedemptionNL said:


> Vehicles count as having move at Cruising speed. So yeah, a Landraider would still be able to fire one weapon with PotMS. As for assaulting after Deep Striking, I'm inclined to say no, as the Assault Ramp rules for the Stormraven and the Landraiders in the Blood Angel codex says they can't Assault on the turn they entered via Deep Strike.


Flat out, not cruising.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Synack said:


> Just looked, there is no such rule stating it. Imho, it's a valid move that can be used in the scout move.


Awesome! If there's indeed no rule stating otherwise, it's entirely legal. It's already worth doing it just to see the look on my regular opponent's face the first time I pull that stunt/shunt. :laugh:



The Mad Hatter said:


> Flat out, not cruising.


Pg 94 of the BRB says cruising speed, unless the Summoning or the Warp Stabalisation Field specifically says flat-out? Doesn't make a difference for Landraiders, as they can't even move flat-out anyway, but the Storm Raven can fire 2 weapons at cruising speed instead of 1 at flat-out.


----------



## coke123

^the summoning specifically states flat out.



The Mad Hatter said:


> Actually, I would like that Summoning works with the libby's teleport homer, but there's no mention about the fact that it would work through teleport (teleport homer requirement). Even if fluffy-wise it works through the warp, as teleport does, RAW-wise I suppose it is not allowed (I hope to be wrong, obviously).


It does work- since they are redeployed via Deep Strike, and the teleport homer helps guys deploying via deep strike.


----------



## RedemptionNL

coke123 said:


> ^the summoning specifically states flat out.


Alright, that changes things then. 



> It does work- since they are redeployed via Deep Strike, and the teleport homer helps guys deploying via deep strike.


Well, that depends on the wording of the Teleport Homer in the GK dex, as the Teleport Homers in other Space Marine codexes specifically say they only work for teleporting (even just models in Terminator armour), not for all Deep Striking. The Locator Beacon does work for all Deep Striking, but doesn't appear to be in the GK dex.

So either they changed the Teleport Homer in the GK dex to work for all Deep Striking, or it possibly doesn't work for The Summoning and Deep Striking Stormravens and such.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

coke123 said:


> It does work- since they are redeployed via Deep Strike, and the teleport homer helps guys deploying via deep strike.





RedemptionNL said:


> Well, that depends on the wording of the Teleport Homer in the GK dex, as the Teleport Homers in other Space Marine codexes specifically say they only work for teleporting (even just models in Terminator armour), not for all Deep Striking. The Locator Beacon does work for all Deep Striking, but doesn't appear to be in the GK dex.
> 
> So either they changed the Teleport Homer in the GK dex to work for all Deep Striking, or it possibly doesn't work for The Summoning and Deep Striking Stormravens and such.


Exactly, it requires "teleport" Deep Striking in the Gk codex too, thus my doubts about the feasibility of using it in support of Summoning.


----------



## alex567

any one notice thawn has fearless? how pointless, he cant use it till either his squad dies or he dies and respawn-a-ma-things


----------



## Azezel

I'm trying very, very hard to stay calm here. It's an almost superhuman effort in fact.

Could someone who's read the codex tell me about this:



> The fluff section has a story about Grey Knights killing a contignent of Sisters of Battle so that they can use their innocent blood to make a talisman that would protect them from the Bloodtide (superweapon unleashed by Daemon Prince Voldorius).


----------



## alex567

Azezel said:


> I'm trying very, very hard to stay calm here. It's an almost superhuman effort in fact.
> 
> Could someone who's read the codex tell me about this:


sounds interesting, well sisters have gotta be useful for something!!! (joking before you start flaming me)


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> I'm trying very, very hard to stay calm here. It's an almost superhuman effort in fact.
> 
> Could someone who's read the codex tell me about this:


Wait, what? :mrgreen:

By the way, what Im going to do with my seraphins?


----------



## alex567

Azezel said:


> I'm trying very, very hard to stay calm here. It's an almost superhuman effort in fact.
> 
> Could someone who's read the codex tell me about this:


hey they were gonna die either way by the looks of it.:suicide:


----------



## sybarite

Azezel said:


> I'm trying very, very hard to stay calm here. It's an almost superhuman effort in fact.
> 
> Could someone who's read the codex tell me about this:


well its matt ward :suicide:.


----------



## alex567

sybarite said:


> well its matt ward :suicide:.


well said!!!


----------



## sybarite

that's reminds me.
Do we know who is doing the SoB codex?

lets all prey after seeing this its not "the hated one"


----------



## alex567

sybarite said:


> that's reminds me.
> Do we know who is doing the SoB codex?
> 
> lets all prey after seeing this its not "the hated one"


lol "OMG we cant talk about he who must not be named" this was totaly harry potter all over it, well i hope, although i wont be doing as ister army they bring out some realy nice plastic sisters.


----------



## Azezel

sybarite said:


> that's reminds me.
> Do we know who is doing the SoB codex?
> 
> lets all prey after seeing this its not "the hated one"



Since Codex: Sisters of Battle was _aparantly_ started around the same time as GK, process of elimination would point to Phil Kelly - and while it's only a guess, his is the name that seems to crop up most often.

Read into that what you will. I'd be happy if it were true.


If you want my advice, and this is the internet so I'm legaly bound to assume that you do, don't get excited until a new piece of _official_ art surfaces with a Battle Sister in it.


----------



## Hurricane

Azezel said:


> Since Codex: Sisters of Battle was _aparantly_ started around the same time as GK, process of elimination would point to Phil Kelley - and while it's only a guess, his is the name that seems to crop up most often.
> 
> Read into that what you will. I'd be happy if it were true.


Just curious, but what codices has Phil Kelly written? I did a quick google search for a list of 40k codex writers and their respective works but I didn't come up with anything.


----------



## Katie Drake

Hurricane said:


> Just curious, but what codices has Phil Kelly written? I did a quick google search for a list of 40k codex writers and their respective works but I didn't come up with anything.


Among the most recent one was Space Wolves, though he did Eldar and 4th edition Tyranids too if I remember correctly. Oh, and Dark Eldar, of course.


----------



## alex567

Katie Drake said:


> Among the most recent one was Space Wolves, though he did Eldar and 4th edition Tyranids too if I remember correctly. Oh, and Dark Eldar, of course.


Phil kelly does good books yet they choose matt ward to write codex grey knights, mabe everyone else was bussy so they got this guy to do it


----------



## MadCowCrazy

From what I read Ward was doing the Necron dex as well, this makes it seem like GW are running low on codex writers if they have to work on many dexes at the same time.

I really hope this means my Sisters of Battle get a "Ward" save and are done properly. Then again I would love to see them really OP because that could mean they would be more popular enticing GW to make more stuff for them...


----------



## Azezel

The way the 'net tells it, Ward is a butcher of fluff, but doesn't write noticably overpowered codices. That allegation is normally levelled at Space Woofs and Guard, which were Kelly and Cruddace respectively.

Given the choice I'd like Cruddace.

'Nids are a bang-up codex with some small flaws magnified out of all proportion, and Cruddace doesn't seem to go in for the Nemesis Bloodwolf and special-character-to-unlock-the-army-you-actually-want sillynes that the other two do.

Kelly would be acceptable. 

I certainly don't want an overpowered codex. People already roll their eyes at Spirit of the Martyr, I can just imagine what they'd say the day we have more than four good units in our 'dex.


----------



## sybarite

cool guess we won't find out till 2012 though, due to all the Necrons and Tau rumors going around


----------



## Winterous

sybarite said:


> cool guess we won't find out till 2012 though, due to all the Necrons and Tau rumors going around


...There's Tau rumours??


----------



## sybarite

Winterous said:


> ...There's Tau rumours??


yes among others, big part is Squats may be coming back with tau though l say that's filled with slat and l don't believe it yet.

the reason why l say that is GK are in April with TK after that. They will do 3 or 2 more dexs this year and normal warhammer aside l have heard rumours for DA, BT, Necrons and Tau but all seems quite on the SoB side .


----------



## MadCowCrazy

sybarite said:


> yes among others, big part is Squats may be coming back with tau though l say that's filled with slat and l don't believe it yet.
> 
> the reason why l say that is GK are in April with TK after that. They will do 3 or 2 more dexs this year and normal warhammer aside l have heard rumours for DA, BT, Necrons and Tau but all seems quite on the SoB side .


Actually I think we will only get 1 more codex this year and it will be Necrons in November. We will probably see 3 codicies next year though, just in time for the end of the world 

I base this theory on the following

April : Grey Knights
May : TK
June : Dark Eldar 2nd wave
July : Fantasy or LotR
August : Summer of Fliers
September : Fantasy or LotR
October : Fantasy or LotR
November : Necrons

There just isn't enough time for more codex releases this year.


----------



## rasolyo

I was under the impression that only one more codex would be released this year (Necrons?).

If they do push back Sisters I'd rather it be early 6th Ed than late 5th Ed.  Either way we really need a balanced codex with enough variety to offset our being put on the back burner.

My only consolation in this is that I have more time to collect the models that I don't have yet (Penitent engines lol.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by MCC.

Also: I've noticed that due to their weight alone, metal models can scratch paint off themselves, be it from a short drop or just from being knocked around in a container.

I hate metal now.


----------



## Katie Drake

rasolyo said:


> Also: I've noticed that due to their weight alone, metal models can scratch paint off themselves, be it from a short drop or just from being knocked around in a container.
> 
> I hate metal now.


They also tend to break easier because they hit harder when they fall. Yes, I know heavy objects don't fall faster than light objects. =/


----------



## rasolyo

On the subject of the SOB codex, is it safe to assume that Hereticus will no longer be in it? The GK dex took Karamazov and the assassins and it allows you to field the different Ordos' inquisitors.

I'm assuming the Sisters will have to share the codex with the Ecclesiarchy, which I'm kind of ambivalent toward.


----------



## Lucian Kain

Two questions,alas probably not verry bright ones.

If you use two GMs' can they both give D3 Foc/.... shinanigans=2xD3?

If so could you choose 5 Dread Knights 2(to 5) as troops useing said shinanigans,(& 3 as HeavySupport?)

If possible,I'd like to see where a list could go from there?!

EDIT:while I'm at it can you choose two of the same weapons on the DKs'?


----------



## Scorpio

@Lucian: I believe for the wording of the GMs' abilities, you don't do any FoC changes. All that change are that the unit, which ever you choose, would be a scoring unit, not that itmoves to a Troop slot. So even if you have two GM, you can only have a max of 3 Dreadknights, as you only have 3 heavy slots to fill them.


----------



## genesis80

Lucian Kain said:


> Two questions,alas probably not verry bright ones.
> 
> If you use two GMs' can they both give D3 Foc/.... shinanigans=2xD3?
> 
> If so could you choose 5 Dread Knights 2(to 5) as troops useing said shinanigans,(& 3 as HeavySupport?)
> 
> If possible,I'd like to see where a list could go from there?!
> 
> EDIT:while I'm at it can you choose two of the same weapons on the DKs'?


Oh GREAT!!! Now IM curious (& wondering the same thing). Thanks Lucian!!


----------



## Mathai

But if you do take 2 GM's, can you give two different rules bonuses or do all 2d3 of them have to be the same?


----------



## Lucian Kain

Scorpio said:


> @Lucian: I believe for the wording of the GMs' abilities, you don't do any FoC changes. All that change are that the unit, which ever you choose, would be a scoring unit, not that itmoves to a Troop slot. So even if you have two GM, you can only have a max of 3 Dreadknights, as you only have 3 heavy slots to fill them.


Oh gutted,are you sure of the wording? Thought I might have had something nice there.Dose it say counts troops or counts as scoreing I'm gona look cause I don't want to believe it.(Even though its probably so true)


----------



## LukeValantine

In regards to Katies post.
The word you where looking for to explain why metal models tend to have a larger impact force is momentum. For even though the objects fall at the same rate the greater weight of the metal model is converted into more kinetic energy when it is released from the same height. Hence why pewter models seem to explode when they hits the ground....well that, and the fact pewter joints are less sturdy then plastic models do to the makeup of the point surface, and the nature of the relevant adhesives used on each medium.


----------



## Mathai

Well either way (Counts as troops or actually becomming a Troops in FOC terms) I have never known dice to be rolled before a game has moved past force creation. So unless this special ability takes place when you are actually putting together your army I'd have to say that you cant put get Dreadknights in your two compulsory troop choices. and are stuck with a maximum of three of them in your Heavy Support choices. Then when the game begins, you can roll your d3's and assign them the special ability and they become scoring at that point.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

If you take 2 GMs you roll 2D3, make sure you keep track of the different rolls as you can give different abilities to to both.
Now comes the question if you can roll both D3 at the same time and chose the abilities or if you have to roll 1D3 at a time and chose. Why this is important is because maybe you want to give scout to 2-3 units while you want troops on 1 unit. If you roll both at same time you can sort of "cheat" by getting to cherry pick while if you roll one at a time and pick you can never be sure if the second roll will be better than the first and maybe you want to use different abilities.

It does not change the FOC in any way, all it does is make a unit scoring. It would not make sense for it to allow for FOC changes, what if I brought 9 Dreadknights to the table thinking I could use them as troops with 2 GMs. I would have to roll 3 on both D3 but if I failed my list would be illegal and/or I wouldn't be allowed to field all 9 meaning I had to leave 130-600pt off the table for the battle.
Hope it makes better sense now


----------



## Lucian Kain

Mathai said:


> Well either way (Counts as troops or actually becomming a Troops in FOC terms) I have never known dice to be rolled before a game has moved past force creation. So unless this special ability takes place when you are actually putting together your army I'd have to say that you cant put get Dreadknights in your two compulsory troop choices. and are stuck with a maximum of three of them in your Heavy Support choices. Then when the game begins, you can roll your d3's and assign them the special ability and they become scoring at that point.


Couldn't find it anywhere I'm not pushing it either,But the 2xGMs' 2xD3 is chosen during building the armys structure so it is a givein that you get thoughs minimum two troops FOC mistchiff befor you even roll the dice if thats the way your building it.Rolling the dice is just a technicality of how many.

Just wanted mild debate to test the idea cause it seemed a grey area if the wording says:counts as troops and not scoring


----------



## RedemptionNL

Lucian Kain said:


> Couldn't find it anywhere I'm not pushing it either,But the 2xGMs' 2xD3 is chosen during building the armys structure so it is a givein that you get thoughs minimum two troops FOC mistchiff befor you even roll the dice if thats the way your building it.Rolling the dice is just a technicality of how many.
> 
> Just wanted mild debate to test the idea cause it seemed a grey area if the wording says:counts as troops and not scoring


You roll the Grand Strategy dice just before deployment, but after armies have been chosen, a mission has been chosen, deployment type has been chosen, it has determined who goes first and the deployment zones have been chosen.

That combined with the fact that you just make them scoring _as if_ they were Troops, instead of actually making them Troops choices, should be the final deathblow on that strategy.


----------



## coke123

RedemptionNL said:


> Alright, that changes things then.
> 
> 
> Well, that depends on the wording of the Teleport Homer in the GK dex, as the Teleport Homers in other Space Marine codexes specifically say they only work for teleporting (even just models in Terminator armour), not for all Deep Striking. The Locator Beacon does work for all Deep Striking, but doesn't appear to be in the GK dex.
> 
> So either they changed the Teleport Homer in the GK dex to work for all Deep Striking, or it possibly doesn't work for The Summoning and Deep Striking Stormravens and such.


Except that the only difference between a teleport deep strike and a regular deep strike is fluff, IIRC. If you're trying to tell me that the Summoning isn't a form of teleportation... then I'm going to have to disagree...


----------



## RedemptionNL

coke123 said:


> Except that the only difference between a teleport deep strike and a regular deep strike is fluff, IIRC. If you're trying to tell me that the Summoning isn't a form of teleportation... then I'm going to have to disagree...


Well, one is piece of machinery (the Teleporter) that locks onto a piece of technology (the Teleport Homer). The other is a psychic abilty that just pulls things through the warp; I wouldn't know if a Librarian suddenly knows how to speak Teleport Homer. Plus if the Librarian is doing the summoning, would he really need a beacon to tell him where he is standing? But regardless, yes, that is fluff, and a case can be made either way.

What matters is how the rules part of the Teleport Homer is explained in the GK codex. For example, the entry in the Space Marine codex specifically mentions it only works for Deep Striking models in Terminator armour, that enter with the teleport function of their suit (and not, for example Terminators in a Drop Pod).

I assume the Teleport Homer entry in the GK codex is at least extended to include models in Power Armour teleporting in, but I'm not sure if it includes all Deep Striking. Damnit, I wish I had access to the codex already!


----------



## The Mad Hatter

RedemptionNL said:


> I assume the Teleport Homer entry in the GK codex is at least extended to include models in Power Armour teleporting in, but I'm not sure if it includes all Deep Striking. Damnit, I wish I had access to the codex already!


I can tell you. GK Teleport homer mentions that its use is for GK SS, GK Interceptors, and GK in Terminator armours that arrive through DS. Then, it specifies that it works with teleportation DS only.

Funny, considering that GKSS and GKInterceptors have a simple DS special rule: obviously we know that fluffy-wise they use teleportation, but rule-wise it is not written anywhere (contrarily to the Terminator armor text, that specifies it, as usual).

EDIT: I know, it could be said that Interceptors can use the DS given by being Jump Infantry, that is teleportation related deriving from Personal Teleport. The fact doesn't change however, as GKSS can't say it.


----------



## dakem_the_great

Hmm i just noticed something - Crowes Rendering on a 4+ equals a poisoned 4+ powerweapon. And if u could get him the reroll option from the Grandmaster it would effectively become a 3+ poisoned powerweapon. (Jeah i know more a 3.5+ powerweapon but it kinda feels nice looking at it this way)


----------



## RedemptionNL

The Mad Hatter said:


> I can tell you. GK Teleport homer mentions that its use is for GK SS, GK Interceptors, and GK in Terminator armours that arrive through DS. Then, it specifies that it works with teleportation DS only.
> 
> Funny, considering that GKSS and GKInterceptors have a simple DS special rule: obviously we know that fluffy-wise they use teleportation, but rule-wise it is not written anywhere (contrarily to the Terminator armor text, that specifies it, as usual).


Well that pretty much rules out that the Teleport Homer works with the Summoning if that is true. At best you could only make it work with just the models in terminator armour and Interceptor and Strike Squads with some rules mongering, but that doesn't seem to be the intention.

Stuff like Purifiers, Purgation Squads, Dreadknights and vehicles don't seem to get it for certain if they're ommited from the Teleport Homer entry, which makes summoning them a bit risky for such expensive models. Too bad.


----------



## RedemptionNL

dakem_the_great said:


> Hmm i just noticed something - Crowes Rendering on a 4+ equals a poisoned 4+ powerweapon. And if u could get him the reroll option from the Grandmaster it would effectively become a 3+ poisoned powerweapon. (Jeah i know more a 3.5+ powerweapon but it kinda feels nice looking at it this way)


Not exactly, if his Strength is higher than the Toughness of his target, he'd just wound on a 2 or 3 without ignoring armour. On the other hand he'll damage vehicles more easily, as even rolling a 4 and a decent rending roll can penetrate AV10.

Giving Grand Stategy to Crowe seems like a waste though, but that's besides the point.


----------



## Brovius

Speaking of Crowe...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160015a

Let there be Purifiers!


----------



## jimbo1701

Brovius said:


> Speaking of Crowe...
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160015a
> 
> Let there be Purifiers!


Yep, him and the weaponsmith are up for AA on the 16th April.


----------



## Judas Masias

Brovius said:


> Speaking of Crowe...
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160015a
> 
> Let there be Purifiers!





jimbo1701 said:


> Yep, him and the weaponsmith are up for AA on the 16th April.


Dame you guys beat me to it!:ireful2::biggrin:


----------



## yanlou

Oh how interesting GK virtually get Ape Obliterators, hmmm, sounds fun.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, teleport homers don't work on the Summoning, but servo skulls do.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, teleport homers don't work on the Summoning, but servo skulls do.


Do you think the dice decreasing is stackable? I know that bonuses given by special rules and psychic powers that share the same name cannot be stacked, unless otherwise specified (e.g., Psychic Communion), but what about wargear options, like the skulls?


----------



## Katie Drake

The Mad Hatter said:


> Do you think the dice decreasing is stackable? I know that bonuses given by special rules and psychic powers that share the same name cannot be stacked, unless otherwise specified (e.g., Psychic Communion), but what about wargear options, like the skulls?


I'm not sure of the "official" answer, but I don't think that's possible, no.


----------



## ckcrawford

Jesus..... :shok: Look at all those Overpowered rules. Just when I thought a codex couldn't get crazier than the Blood Angels. I might have to redo my rules. lol.


----------



## Aegir Einarsson

In this case Servoskull looks quite useful. Blocking outflank/infiltration in 12" bubble, and no scatter in DS nice


----------



## Irbian

brovius, mental rep for you


----------



## callred

might already have been mentioned but according to GW update today the rules for FW Inq Solomon Lok and Razorbacks , Psycannons and Inq Rex are to be updated in the next few weeks to be brought into line with the new GK dex

cool


----------



## Arcane

Well dang haven't logged into here in forever. Good to see the new dex finally coming out. Now I just have to figure out what to preorder from my flgs...


----------



## Inq_Eljer

Lucian Kain said:


> Couldn't find it anywhere I'm not pushing it either,But the 2xGMs' 2xD3 is chosen during building the armys structure so it is a givein that you get thoughs minimum two troops FOC mistchiff befor you even roll the dice if thats the way your building it.Rolling the dice is just a technicality of how many.
> 
> Just wanted mild debate to test the idea cause it seemed a grey area if the wording says:counts as troops and not scoring


The actual wording of 'Unyielding Anvil': 

_A key position must be seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were troops._

No real grey area there. Not troops, but can claim objectives as if they were...I also assume this extends to contesting objectives since they can claim.

Basically you can nominate d3 units to benefit from special rules, but no changes to the FoC...reroll wound rolls of '1', Counter-Attack, Scout, or the ability to claim objectives.

Units allowed to be nominated: Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monterous Creature or Walkers.

Not allowed to be nominated: Independent Characters, =][= Henchmen Warbands, or Mordrak's Ghost Knights.

So D3 units all get 1 special rule and with 2 GM using Grand Strategy you could get any combination of 2xd3 units receiving zero, one or two special rules.

Sounds like fun to me.


----------



## Synack

Inq_Eljer said:


> Units allowed to be nominated: Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monterous Creature or Walkers.


Just want to point out that, even though you could technically give a walker (ie: dreadnought) to be like troops and scoring, they still wouldn't score, because the BRB says that vehicles can never score.

Point in case, BA have a dread as a troop choice and it can never score.


----------



## alex567

Synack said:


> Just want to point out that, even though you could technically give a walker (ie: dreadnought) to be like troops and scoring, they still wouldn't score, because the BRB says that vehicles can never score.
> 
> Point in case, BA have a dread as a troop choice and it can never score.


I would assume that this would allow them to capture points, but we will have to wait for an faq to hopefully answer, any quesiotns, but do remember that rules in the codex over rule rules on the rulebook


----------



## Synack

alex567 said:


> I would assume that this would allow them to capture points, but we will have to wait for an faq to hopefully answer, any quesiotns, but do remember that rules in the codex over rule rules on the rulebook


I'm not saying it can't, I'm just saying that saying a dread can score, as if it were a troop dread, means it still can't score, cause dreads can never score.

The ability to score, come from effectively treating the unit as a troop choice, even though it is not in the troop section. Dreads that are troop choices, still can't score, so treating a dread as a troop, will not change that.

*edit* Let me rephrase it.

If the rule had simply said, "Treat the unit as scoring", then I would say that dreads could score, cause this is over riding the rule that dreads can't score. However, the rule doesn't say that. Troops are scoring. The rule says, we get to effectively slap on the Troop label onto a unit, which would then make it a scoring unit, because it is a troop. But troop dreads don't score, so applying the rule to a dread has no effect.


----------



## alex567

Synack said:


> I'm not saying it can't, I'm just saying that saying a dread can score, as if it were a troop dread, means it still can't score, cause dreads can never score.
> 
> The ability to score, come from effectively treating the unit as a troop choice, even though it is not in the troop section. Dreads that are troop choices, still can't score, so treating a dread as a troop, will not change that.
> 
> *edit* Let me rephrase it.
> 
> If the rule had simply said, "Treat the unit as scoring", then I would say that dreads could score, cause this is over riding the rule that dreads can't score. However, the rule doesn't say that. Troops are scoring. The rule says, we get to effectively slap on the Troop label onto a unit, which would then make it a scoring unit, because it is a troop. But troop dreads don't score, so applying the rule to a dread has no effect.


i know what you mean but the rule sais "it can score as if it were a troops choice" not that it counts as a troop choice, but it follows the same rulls as a troop choice capturing an objective so i would assume it over rides the rules


----------



## Synack

alex567 said:


> i know what you mean but the rule sais "it can score as if it were a troops choice" not that it counts as a troop choice, but it follows the same rulls as a troop choice capturing an objective so i would assume it over rides the rules


A troop choice vehicle (dread) can not score, even tho it is a troop choice. Nothing in the rule changes that.

Are you a troop?
- No, I'm a heavy.
-- Apply rule to treat as troop for scoring purposes
--- Are you a troop
---- Yes, I'm treated a troop
----- Are there any other rules stopping you from scoring?
------ Yes, I'm a vehicle (dread)
------- Unit is still unable to score.


----------



## sybarite

if that's the case why can't it just say.

"only non-vehicle units can be nominated" 

instand of "Units allowed to be nominated: Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monterous Creature or Walkers."


and don't say "because of the hated one"


----------



## coke123

sybarite said:


> if that's the case why can't it just say.
> 
> "only non-vehicle units can be nominated"
> 
> instand of "Units allowed to be nominated: Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monterous Creature or Walkers."
> 
> 
> and don't say "because of the hated one"


Because scoring is not the only rule they can gain. They can still scout, reroll ones to wound or have counter attack


----------



## Inq_Eljer

I'd have to disagree...it seems GW went out of their way to say that Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights both can claim objectives as if they were troops. Specifically being allowed to 'score'. We may have to see how GW FAQ it, but it seems reasonable to me that all 4 rules are intended for the units specified and readers aren't supposed to over-think or over-analyze it (not saying you are by the way)...by directly stating that MC and Walkers can benefit from the 4 specials rules I don't see how the BRB over-rides that.

To each their own if we don't agree.


----------



## alex567

Synack said:


> A troop choice vehicle (dread) can not score, even tho it is a troop choice. Nothing in the rule changes that.
> 
> Are you a troop?
> - No, I'm a heavy.
> -- Apply rule to treat as troop for scoring purposes
> --- Are you a troop
> ---- Yes, I'm treated a troop
> ----- Are there any other rules stopping you from scoring?
> ------ Yes, I'm a vehicle (dread)
> ------- Unit is still unable to score.


but thee rules in the codex precced the rules inj the rule book, so the way i read it is they gain the scoring rule the EXACT same way that troops are allowed to score, i beleive that the reason this is worded badly is because ward had the walker in mind when selecting, it doesnt say that they score as if they were troops it sais they score the same way troops do, that is the way i see it, all comments welcome.


----------



## sybarite

coke123 said:


> Because scoring is not the only rule they can gain. They can still scout, reroll ones to wound or have counter attack


true but Dreadknights don't have an AV so the only one it would hurt that still falls under that list is a Dreadnoughts. and to be honest in my army l won't be giving it "scout, reroll ones to wound or have counter attack " when there are other units who need it more


----------



## alex567

im guessing none of you noticed this but the dredknight cant use his doomfists.


----------



## sybarite

alex567 said:


> im guessing none of you noticed this but the dredknight cant use his doomfists.


yes l did or there be no point in taking the hammer


----------



## alex567

sybarite said:


> yes l did or there be no point in taking the hammer


i think that someone made a cocup on this part, although the hamemr does stun the enemy.


----------



## sybarite

alex567 said:


> i think that someone made a cocup on this part, although the hamemr does stun the enemy.


l am sorry for my poor english but what is a cocup?

l did not read any where that it stuns its just acts as a normal thunder hammer


----------



## MichaelCarmine

And Thunder hammers act like this:

_Thunder hammers
Thunder hammers release a tremendous blast of energy
when they strike. A thunder hammer uses the same
rules as a power fist. In addition, all models that suffer
an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are
not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their
Initiative to a value of 1 until the end of the next
player’s turn. Against vehicles with no Initiative value,
whenever a thunder hammer inflicts any damage result,
it also inflicts a crew shaken result (see page 61)._


----------



## Catpain Rich

sybarite said:


> l am sorry for my poor english but what is a cocup?
> 
> l did not read any where that it stuns its just acts as a normal thunder hammer


cocup= cock up = mistake


----------



## alex567

Catpain Rich said:


> cocup= cock up = mistake


yeah sorry cant spell properly, what captain rich said basicaly :biggrin:


----------



## sybarite

thanks MichaelCarmine but l thought he was saying it was a normal hammer with stun.

thanks Catpain Rich l thought he was spelling a diffident word all together.

@alex567 l don't see the cock up then.


----------



## alex567

sybarite said:


> thanks MichaelCarmine but l thought he was saying it was a normal hammer with stun.
> 
> thanks Catpain Rich l thought he was spelling a diffident word all together.
> 
> @alex567 l don't see the cock up then.


They were obviously pu their for a reason, other wise he would have givven it two close combat weapons, so i believe it was a cock up or mistake


----------



## mahavira

This has probably been mentioned before (been gone awhile and refused to check more than 50 posts back) but I was in the store today and looked at the black box copy of the GK codex, and it says that GK are the chamber militant of the INQUISITION (as opposed to just teh Ordo Malleus). I suppose this means those of us who spent a couple hundred dollars on inquisitor models for our SoB army are up the creek. Thanks a lot, GW.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sigh, GW and their shitty writing of codicies...

Guess we will have to wait for the FAQ before we can actually play as usual.... :crazy:


----------



## Mathai

For those who have looked at the codex pretty well, is there any truth to the remark waaay back in this thread that it was possible to play a 9 model strong army? I think it was nine, but it was deffinitely a single digit model count that someone said their local GW guy said was possible, and I am curious if there is in fact a possibility of having only so few in a decent sized game.


----------



## Inquisitor Dagron XIII

Mathai said:


> For those who have looked at the codex pretty well, is there any truth to the remark waaay back in this thread that it was possible to play a 9 model strong army? I think it was nine, but it was deffinitely a single digit model count that someone said their local GW guy said was possible, and I am curious if there is in fact a possibility of having only so few in a decent sized game.


Well, just to screw around you could take Draigo, seven paladins divided into 6 troop choices with the apoth upgrade, psycannon, MC weapons, warding staves, and then 2 dreadknights with teleporter and full gun upgrades and that will take you to 2000 pts. There are probably other ways too but I wouldn't worry about because it really wouldn't be that effective. Still it's kind of fun to screw around with.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

I noticed that in the orbital strike relay it is not mentioned the barrage nature of the attacks. Yes, it is specified that it scatters always, but nothing about the fact that is barrage. Thus, the orbital strike relay attacks give interposed cover and need line of sight? The Techmarine is a kind of energy spheres shooting Sayan? And the S10 AP1 hit is like a Kamehameha? :laugh:
Seriously, what do you think about? Possible/probable FAQ needed?


----------



## Winterous

The Mad Hatter said:


> I noticed that in the orbital strike relay it is not mentioned the barrage nature of the attacks. Yes, it is specified that it scatters always, but nothing about the fact that is barrage. Thus, the orbital strike relay attacks give interposed cover and need line of sight? The Techmarine is a kind of energy spheres shooting Sayan? And the S10 AP1 hit is like a Kamehameha? :laugh:
> Seriously, what do you think about? Possible/probable FAQ needed?


My take on that is that intervening terrain can interfere with the targeting beam, or whatever it uses, meaning the shot can end up slightly off-target.
Something like that.


----------



## The Mad Hatter

Winterous said:


> My take on that is that intervening terrain can interfere with the targeting beam, or whatever it uses, meaning the shot can end up slightly off-target.
> Something like that.


The scatter is given by the orbital attack imprecision. Instead, we are talking about a building that slightly cover the sight between the Techmarine and the target, and it results in having a cover save for the target, a cover against an orbital attack! A building in position X determines a cover to the target in position Y attacked from the sky! I mean, everything is possible, but I would rather think that interposed covers interfere in the scatter rather than in the target protection, and the bad scatter is already handled by the perma 2D6.


----------



## jimbo1701

3 things folks, assuming my info is still correct in the final copy. 

1. Firstly, does the brotherhood champions / Crowes heroic sacrifice rule stack with him being able to reroll to hit in combat on a turn in which he charges? This would mean that if he were killed, he would get a 3+ (Vs most) rerollable in a turn he charged in order to remove a nasty IC from combat with him. Ouch! 

2. More an observation. People ,mentioning how vulnerable eversors/Crowe are as they have no infiltrate or ability to merge into squads to protect from ranged fire. Far as I can tell (please correct if not), as neither are ICs and both are infantry, there's no reason you couldn't give them both scout using the GM grand strategy ability. This would enable them either to close with the enemy decreasing the turns they are vulnerable OR (even better) give them the ability to outflank. True, there are probably better uses of grand strategy but it does enable a way to make these two units a bit more effective.

3. The orbital strike relay can fire every turn correct? In which case Karmazov is not quite as useless as originally thought, especially as he's an IC.


----------



## Winterous

The Mad Hatter said:


> The scatter is given by the orbital attack imprecision. Instead, we are talking about a building that slightly cover the sight between the Techmarine and the target, and it results in having a cover save for the target, a cover against an orbital attack! A building in position X determines a cover to the target in position Y attacked from the sky! I mean, everything is possible, but I would rather think that interposed covers interfere in the scatter rather than in the target protection, and the bad scatter is already handled by the perma 2D6.


I'm not saying it's reasonable, I'm only trying to explain why it 'might' be.


----------



## Dagmire

What i would like to know:
If i have a daemon host that gains fleet for a tur, can I use that ablitlity if he is in a unit that has other models that are not fleet?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I got a good look at the codex and all I am going to say is ....... WOW. I look for many 'Ard Boyz Tourneys to have GK in them as 1, 2, & 3.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Dagmire said:


> What i would like to know:
> If i have a daemon host that gains fleet for a tur, can I use that ablitlity if he is in a unit that has other models that are not fleet?


No, if any model of the squad is disallowed to assault (because he fired a heavy or rapid fire weapon, because he ran without Fleet, just arrived with Deepstrike, etc), the entire squad can't assault.


----------



## Mathai

But what if that ability is given to all of them? I havent read the codex yet, but is it possible that it was intended to grant them all fleet?


----------



## Katie Drake

Mathai said:


> But what if that ability is given to all of them? I havent read the codex yet, but is it possible that it was intended to grant them all fleet?


The rule doesn't even allude to the idea that the entire unit is supposed to pick up Fleet, so I'd say it's extremely unlikely that that's the intent. I think what's going on there is the writers are figuring that people will take entire units of Daemonhosts so that they'd work largely similarly to how they did in Codex: Daemonhunters.


----------



## alex567

hi guys, yes crowe can re-roll to hit, cause its basicaly a normal attack but its a psycic power aswell so you cant cleasing flame ability and die kill on the same turn, also the smallest list if seen is the following,
draigo in a storm raven, paladin in a storm raven, paladin in a storm raven, dreadknight, dreadknight, dreadknight (bucket of upgrades on each)


----------



## callred

well just finished a 1500 pt game using GK codex against DE 

i had 2 x 10 man purifier squads, crowe, sr, lrr, term squad

psycannons on purifiers , halbards and 1x DH
psycannon, Dh, halbards on termies
tllc and tlmm on sr
all had psybolt upgrades

_notes_

well the dice gods hate me ! (couldn't down a raider with 6 SB shots and 4 psycannon shots !!!)

dont ever go up against stuff with a higher ws than you because the lack of ws 5 and st 6 is telling even with I6

difficult choice to activate which psychic power on purifier squads when faced with horde/elite choices (ie wyches)

terminators die as easy as they did in the last codex and DS'ing them is never a good idea

redeemers are very vulnerable if they can't get across the board same as in Sm codex

admittedly it was a difficult game with lots of looking at the shop codex copy but definitely proved that a player that is already competent with their army won't have a problem with GK so i don't subscribe to codex creep at all

all that is just my view and findings so far :read:


----------



## LukeValantine

In all honest I don't think anyone really expected GK to do well against DE. Horde army with lots of poisoned shooting at BS4, and a crap load of ap2 str8 guns VS a elite slow moving MeQ army. 

Now if this was against say SM, CSM, CD, Or hell even IG your game it would be a lot more telling, but against DE vary little can be truly desired do to DE's unique nich like play style.

However its nice to see reports about GK games trickling in.


----------



## ckcrawford

LukeValantine said:


> In all honest I don't think anyone really expected GK to do well against DE. Horde army with lots of poisoned shooting at BS4, and a crap load of ap2 str8 guns VS a elite slow moving MeQ army.
> 
> Now if this was against say SM, CSM, CD, Or hell even IG your game it would be a lot more telling, but against DE vary little can be truly desired do to DE's unique nich like play style.
> 
> However its nice to see reports about GK games trickling in.


I agree. The terminators in the Grey Knights codex are pretty awesome. Relatively to most terminators in the Space Marine Codex's. They have force weapons, and have a 4+ invulnerable all for just 40 points a pop. Thats pretty decent. And they're fricken troop choices!


----------



## Katie Drake

I must admit that I'm a bit confused when people mention how poisoned weaponry can mow down infantry. Dark Eldar's weapons only wound on a 4+, it's no different than a bolter or any other S4 (against Marines anyway) gun. Dark Eldar can throw out a lot of shots, but being restricted to always wounding on a 4+ really cuts down on the number of saves that a unit needs to take.


----------



## alex567

Katie Drake said:


> I must admit that I'm a bit confused when people mention how poisoned weaponry can mow down infantry. Dark Eldar's weapons only wound on a 4+, it's no different than a bolter or any other S4 (against Marines anyway) gun. Dark Eldar can throw out a lot of shots, but being restricted to always wounding on a 4+ really cuts down on the number of saves that a unit needs to take.


if a poisend weapon is equal to or greater then the enemies toughness then you get to re-roll to wound, so with s 4 weapons against marines the poisened would be realy useful, (no idea what dark eldar weapons have poinend though)


----------



## LukeValantine

All splinter weapons are poisoned, and the true born have high strength poisoned weapons with multiple shots. (Also all the basic troop weapons are poisoned). Which means the dreadknight can get dakkad down by two units of warriors in raiders with splinter racks.

Also Katie a lot of those poisoned weapons have +3 poison or are have a high enough strength to get a re-rolls to wound (In other words DE>SM at daka.). Also DE have a lot of weapons especially designed to rape things with 2+,3+ armor (Either through low ap or high output of shots.).

For instance caltrops from a large unit of those buggers on sky boards can generate up to 20+ wounds doing a fly over.....yah lets see a marine unit do that!


----------



## Katie Drake

alex567 said:


> if a poisend weapon is equal to or greater then the enemies toughness then you get to re-roll to wound, so with s 4 weapons against marines the poisened would be realy useful, (no idea what dark eldar weapons have poinend though)





LukeValantine said:


> Also Katie a lot of those poisoned weapons have +3 poison or are have a high enough strength to get a re-rolls to wound (In other words DE>SM at daka.).


That's just it though, guys. Splinter weapons don't _have_ a Strength value, so it's just a flat 4+. I know there are a few exceptions, but generally Dark Eldar aren't amazing at shooting down Marines. S'all I'm sayin'. ^^;;


----------



## alex567

Katie Drake said:


> That's just it though, guys. Splinter weapons don't _have_ a Strength value, so it's just a flat 4+. I know there are a few exceptions, but generally Dark Eldar aren't amazing at shooting down Marines. S'all I'm sayin'. ^^;;


well when it comes to my guard they are as good as when they played a marine game, so its mostly about the range amillion sit at the back of the bored ina rader with a million ravagers to support it and on your side of the bored is a pile of mush, i played 4 games against dark eldar since the realeas, each with my guard, each time my tank guard list (3 chimeras, two banewolfs, one hellhound) gets range-raped by 9 dark lance shots a turn, nd then all the splinter cannons that basicaly pone, so its not the weapons that do it its the high strength lazers with super range, that cannot be klled because of the assault statline and fast moving veihcle manoverbility, out of every race the dark eldar are the only ones that i hold a grudge against for being realy realy sneaky with their tacktics of a mobile fire base, which just beats my guard list. :ireful2:


----------



## Irbian

Some fluff on Warseer:



> I haven't seen this posted, so i will here, but please excuse if it was already. Seen all these arguments over would the GKs allow the use of the space monkeys, etc.
> 
> So today, i read through whatever i could from the GK fluff at the start of the codex. here are some hilites:
> 
> Page 7: it states that the GK really don't care/agree with the petty racist wars of the imperium. Chaos is too much of a threat, so the GKs not only have special pacts with the adeptus "whatever" (the tech guys that build the heavy weapons on mars, etc), but also with certain specific alien species. (it doesn't say which, but my guess would be like eldar or tau). It says that the GKs trade technology with these alliances,due to mutual survival but it's expected that the technology gained will last longer than even the end of the treaties themselves.
> 
> The first few people, that what's his name, the Sigilite brought to show the emperor to use as the first GKS, some were from the chapters that went over to chaos in the heresy, but these were the few from those chapters that remained loyal and tried to stop the heresy from within their fallen chapters. So they were taken to become GKs.
> 
> Something VERY interesting: within the area where i think the purifiers stay in the titan base, there is a wooden box with a golden seal that contains something called a "terminus <something>". it was placed there by the Sigilite Only the GK supreme grand masters can open it and they will only do so, when its known that humanity will fall completely to chaos or whatever threat. It says whatever secret lies within is so powerful, not only could it tear the imperium apart and destroy it, it could save humanity in their darkest hour.
> 
> GKs vs Necrons:
> 
> Some planet thing appeared in space...so Gks sent since Inquisition thought it must be a chaos thing. Gks went there and awoke what was there....necrons. After a running fight, where it sounds like GKs were getting smoked, the grandmaster leader of that team set some meltabombs in the central complex. They beamed away, and the planet disappaered. No one knows if it was destroyed OR the necrons used their time tech to teleport it away. the entire planet thing is some type of necron artifact.
> 
> Gks vs tyranids:
> 
> During one of the hive fleet invasions, some artifact was uncovered that resummoned that Mkar demon guy. THe GKs went and found a tyranid/daemon war and some hybrid daemonic tyranids. The GKs snuck around to reach where the artifact was so they could recover it and destroy/hide it. But the tyranids swarmed them. When the bigger stuff came, the Gks started to get rocked. THe daemons suddenly attacked from behind and made a huge 3 way battle...the GKs, in teh chaos that ensued got the artifact but before tehy could leave, they told the otehr space marine chapters in orbit to start exterminatus and level the planet. But bunches of the GKs survived the bombardment and beamed away. Then the other chapters continued to level teh planet. The Gks then had those chapters mind wiped.
> 
> The Sigilite guy, who created the GKs under secret orders from teh emperor, he used a spell (i think it says spell and described it as magic..more reason why i say 40K is still defined as fantasy in a literature sense, moreso than sci fi)....anyways, the spell was used to warp titan into the warp and with super wards, protect it from chaos while it was there. By the time it returned, imperium was in ruins after the heresy, but only a few months later. But in the warp time is different; it was centuries. It came back, from just a small group of trainees, and entire chapter of GKs --1000 strong. The technology to warp titan back around space is still active within the GK base and it's heavily protected and kept in working order.
> 
> Also, not stated whether it occurred in the warp or after, it appears beneath some mountain on titan, maybe under teh GK base itself, some warp daemon, super powerful one, may 'sleep'...maybe being kept there by the wards on the titan base itself.
> 
> That is all i can remember right now. I hope this is new info and not rehashed for you all
> 
> Sanjay


Edit: By the way, this is new? http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2061


----------



## Lucian Kain

Do Psybolts work on Psilencers?

Dose Orbital Bombardment work every turn!?


----------



## Katie Drake

Lucian Kain said:


> Do Psybolts work on Psilencers?
> 
> Dose Orbital Bombardment work every turn!?


No.

Yes.


----------



## Akhara'Keth

Wow, nice found. That's a lot of fluff and really interesting! Give you some rep for this :goodpost:


----------



## sybarite

Vs DE your best beat is a dreadkingt's and Orbital Bombardment as all there large blast work wonders vs them.


----------



## Catpain Rich

That fluff is pretty awesome. Nice to see the 40k universe getting weirder  the necron bit makes me want the new (cron) codex now! 

Guess that explains jokaeros as well then.


----------



## genesis80

sybarite said:


> Vs DE your best beat is a dreadkingt's and Orbital Bombardment as all there large blast work wonders vs them.


vs DE, i think DKs will last no more than 1 turn considering the amount of poison and low AP weapons ..


----------



## Lucian Kain

I like this for a start;looks good for fire power,mobility and heavy support...

3x 5 man GKSSs' w/Psycannon
3x Razorbacks with TL/LC
3x Tech Priest w/Orbital Bombardment 6x ServoSkullz ........1020pts.


----------



## elkhantar

genesis80 said:


> vs DE, i think DKs will last no more than 1 turn considering the amount of poison and low AP weapons ..


Very true!! I wouldn't even think of DKs vs DE, where EVERY single warrior's rifle can cause a wound that needs to be saved on a 4+. 2+ save only gets you so far, and torrenting is the worst enemy of 2+ saves troops...


----------



## Lucian Kain

Is the TechPriest 90 or 50


----------



## coke123

elkhantar said:


> Very true!! I wouldn't even think of DKs vs DE, where EVERY single warrior's rifle can cause a wound that needs to be saved on a 4+. 2+ save only gets you so far, and torrenting is the worst enemy of 2+ saves troops...


I dunno... I'd rather be torrented than have my opponent shove a bunch of plasma in my face. Every shot they fire at my dreadknights is a shot they've not fired at my much more important scoring units.


----------



## RedemptionNL

elkhantar said:


> Very true!! I wouldn't even think of DKs vs DE, where EVERY single warrior's rifle can cause a wound that needs to be saved on a 4+. 2+ save only gets you so far, and torrenting is the worst enemy of 2+ saves troops...


Saved on a 4+? It's still a 2+ armour save versus splinter weaponry, which only has AP5.


----------



## hungryugolino

> The Sigilite guy, who created the GKs under secret orders from teh emperor, he used a spell (i think it says spell and described it as magic..more reason why i say 40K is still defined as fantasy in a literature sense, moreso than sci fi)....anyways, the spell was used to warp titan into the warp and with super wards, protect it from chaos while it was there. By the time it returned, imperium was in ruins after the heresy, but only a few months later. But in the warp time is different; it was centuries. It came back, from just a small group of trainees, and entire chapter of GKs --1000 strong. The technology to warp titan back around space is still active within the GK base and it's heavily protected and kept in working order.


I'm sorry, but that's just silly. Since when were Grey Knights time lords?


----------



## Irbian

Titan is a tardis! And I even don´t see DrWho!

Some more fluff


> Some more fluff I remember:
> 
> It talks about (obviously) how they are all psykers and how the most powerful of them can destroy daemons with a touch, and even protect people from death.
> 
> (I would assume these are references to some of the psionic powers the special characters have, although not powerful enough to kill a daemon instantly, Draigo can wound them on a 2+ with that power he has)
> 
> It also mentions during the training, the Librarians oversee much of the psionic training. (i thought librarians are meant to keep records, etc ...not teach, but i guess since the GK's organization is different, Librarians are also teachers, etc).
> 
> The art in the book, IMHO, is quite good. Lots of crazy battles, with GKs and daemons everywhere, dreadknights in the background unloading firepower into larger daemons, etc.
> 
> Sadly, the dreadnought fluff does not mention how they are rare in Gk armies...
> 
> I'm thinking of attempting a golden demon duel/battle scene entry based on the art of Draigo but it will take lots of sculpting work.
> The picture is basically, similar to the high elf Aenerion vs teh Keeper of Secrets in the High Elf armybook.
> 
> Draigo on the precipice of mountain, shield arm back with seals waving in the wind. His sword facing forward and up in the right arm towards this GIANT lord of change who has both hands on it's staff and is driving it down towards him in a double hand thrust type of move. There is beams of light, etc coming from where the edge of the sword is about to meet with the Change staff.
> 
> FIgure major cutting/resculpting of Draigo, and even more cutting/resculpting of the Forgeworld Lord of Change, although, in the art, the LoC is so large, not sure the FW one is even to proper scale for it; but it just looks SOOOO cool.
> 
> reminds me of Aeneiron as i stated above, or even of what i imagine Lord Kroak's single handed destroying daemon armies would have been like (ie. the leader of an army, blinding light, reality was ripping apart, etc).
> 
> Sanjay


----------



## Winterous

RedemptionNL said:


> Saved on a 4+? It's still a 2+ armour save versus splinter weaponry, which only has AP5.


He wrote it badly, he meant that every hit will cause a wound on a 4+, which then requires you to take a save.



hungryugolino said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just silly. Since when were Grey Knights time lords?


They aren't, they didn't use some sort of time machine, they predicted the flows of the Warp and took advantage of them.
They put Titan into the War, and due to the weird shit that goes on there, it had its time accelerated (or whatever), the amount of time that passed on Titan while it was in the Warp was disproportionate to the amount of time that had passed when they got back.
Whether this was due to Titan being thrown back in time from when it should have come out, or the flow of time was altered by the flows isn't something I can answer.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I dont remember who said it before but I'd really like to know more about the fluff part where grey knights sacrifice some Sisters of Battle to create something that helped them kill a daemon of some sort. Is there really such a story in the GK dex?


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> I dont remember who said it before but I'd really like to know more about the fluff part where grey knights sacrifice some Sisters of Battle to create something that helped them kill a daemon of some sort. Is there really such a story in the GK dex?


I believe it was that there was some crazy daemonic shit going on, and the GK used the pure blood of the Sisters to create a ward that protected them, otherwise both groups would have died when one could have survived (and we all know that GK are far more valuable than SOB).


----------



## alex567

Winterous said:


> I believe it was that there was some crazy daemonic shit going on, and the GK used the pure blood of the Sisters to create a ward that protected them, otherwise both groups would have died when one could have survived (and we all know that GK are far more valuable than SOB).


the guy that posted it said, that they used the blood of inocents so sob's, and i supose yeah gk are more valuable then sob's.


----------



## hungryugolino

That...that's just beyond idiotic.

Added to what else we've seen from Ward, we can draw two conclusions.

1)He hates anything that isn't Marines and does his best to ruin their fluff/gameplay.

2)He fundamentally doesn't get 40k.


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> That...that's just beyond idiotic.
> 
> Added to what else we've seen from Ward, we can draw two conclusions.
> 
> 1)He hates anything that isn't Marines and does his best to ruin their fluff/gameplay.
> 
> 2)He fundamentally doesn't get 40k.


how is it beyond idiotic?


----------



## Azezel

It was me who posted that originally. From what I can tell, it goes like this:

The Bloodtide is a chaos-infused DAoT nano-weapon that turns anyone it touches into raging berserkers.

I's unleashed on this world by a daemon, and infects everyone except the Sororitas, who's faith is too strong to be overcome. The Grey Knights see this and decide to gain the Sororitas immunity by performing a blood-sacrifice of every woman in the convent.

Long story short the Grey Knights saw a world full of daemons and decided that the best course of action would be to turn their bolters on the one group that WASN'T corrupted.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to keep telling people that GW don't actively hate the Sisters.


----------



## alex567

Azezel said:


> It was me who posted that originally. From what I can tell, it goes like this:
> 
> The Bloodtide is a chaos-infused DAoT nano-weapon that turns anyone it touches into raging berserkers.
> 
> I's unleashed on this world by a daemon, and infects everyone except the Sororitas, who's faith is too strong to be overcome. The Grey Knights see this and decide to gain the Sororitas immunity by performing a blood-sacrifice of every woman in the convent.
> 
> Long story short the Grey Knights saw a world full of daemons and decided that the best course of action would be to turn their bolters on the one group that WASN'T corrupted.
> 
> It's becoming increasingly difficult to keep telling people that GW don't actively hate the Sisters.


but if you had a choice out of, a force of super super soldiers, or a group of super soldiers what would you choose to live? (the clood tide would have tainted the grey knights and they would have killed the sisters any way) although i do think that the fact that they had a BLOOD sacrifice is a bit chaosy to me, they should have done what any honorable man would do and hide behind the cannonese


----------



## hungryugolino

For one thing, they could have LEFT. 2nd, they're psykers. 3rd, when it comes to curing yourself, mass murder of allies, allies known to be pure and loyal servants of the Thorne should not be the solution.

Hell, that sounds awfully like sorcery. In that, the GK are worse than Gaunt in his latest book; at least he let the chaos general do the dirty work for him instead of doing the ritual!

Ward cannot write good fluff. This is just the icing on the cake.


----------



## hungryugolino

alex567 said:


> but if you had a choice out of, a force of super super soldiers, or a group of super soldiers what would you choose to live? (the clood tide would have tainted the grey knights and they would have killed the sisters any way) although i do think that the fact that they had a BLOOD sacrifice is a bit chaosy to me, they should have done what any honorable man would do and hide behind the cannonese


The fact is that it's a stupid, unnecessary piece of fluff that directly contradicts the spirit and fact of what the GK are. It feels like yet another petty jab at the Sisters, as though their neglect by GW wasn't enough.

Besides, BLOOD SACRIFICE? Murder of loyalists for little reason? The GK shouldn't even be able to contemplate such a thing. Sounds more like something the Word Bearers or Black Legion would do.


----------



## Irbian

If killing innocents for the greater good isn´t 40k, I don´t get what could be...


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> The fact is that it's a stupid, unnecessary piece of fluff that directly contradicts the spirit and fact of what the GK are. It feels like yet another petty jab at the Sisters, as though their neglect by GW wasn't enough.
> 
> Besides, BLOOD SACRIFICE? Murder of loyalists for little reason? The GK shouldn't even be able to contemplate such a thing. Sounds more like something the Word Bearers or Black Legion would do.


the fact that its... YOU HAVENT READ THE ACTUAL PIECE YET SO DONT MOAN, this saturday i will read it and tell you all all the details and dont worry when it comes to fluff im pretty good i can practicly tell all the details of the draigo fluff, (practicly not all) so i will confirm if its true or its miss-understood


----------



## Azezel

Irbian said:


> If killing innocents for the greater good isn´t 40k, I don´t get what could be...


In a vacuum, I agree, this case is rather more complicated.

Remember that, excepting Faith & Fire (which is not a good book) every time the Sisters have been mentioned in the last seven years, it's been falling to chaos, or mind-controlled by Hitler, or getting eaten by space marines (Twice!), or having their numbers reduced by two orders of magnitude via retcon, or, well, or being sacrificed by _Grey Knights_! (And this sin't the first time the GK have murdered Sisters rather than talk, is it, Mr. Counter?)

It's starting to look like there may be a pattern developing...


And, while the intention of this story is clearly to show what stone-cold badasses the GK are (as though killing Sisters is really impressive these days, when everyone has at least slaughtered a convent or two), it actually paints them as galactic-level tits, not to mention sorcerers and impure with it.

They are cargo-cultists. Seeing that the Sisters are both immune to corruption and the more mundane exanguination caused by the Bloodtide, the GK don't assume it has anything to do with the Sisters legendary strength of faithm or with Divine protection - they decide it must be a physical property of the Sister's blood and flesh, so they swoop down and take that by force.

It doesn't matter which army you collect, this story has something to piss everyone off.


----------



## Mathai

The problem that people are having with this (rumored) act by the Grey Knights comes about because you are thinking about it with your morals. If one thing is clear to me, its that there is no one race that is the 'good guys' in the Warhammer 40K universe. 

The Grey Knights are here to stop Chaos. Everything else comes second to that. This is why they work with aliens, this is why they entrust daemonic weapons to those that can be trusted to control them, and this is why they wont hesitate for a split second in cutting down whole convents of Battle Sisters if it will stop the spread of Chaos. If the lives of an entire planet are required to be sacrificed in order to ensure the whole of the Imperium survives, is what they (suppossedly) did any worse than the Imperial standard method for stopping the Tyranid invasion?


Without having actually read any of the Fluff (I'm curious about the rules, but want to wait for the fluff when I have it in my own hands. The only stuff I know is what I accidentally read here.) I have to say that I am loving it all so far. Draigo may be a little far fetched, but not nearly as serious a crime as alot of you think. If you remember the Grey Knight books, the power of their faith is like acid to Daemons. So one of such pure faith and ferocious martial prowess as a Supreme Grandmaster, if he behaves intelligently and picks his battles, is not completely impossible to believe would be able to continue existing within the home of the enemy.


----------



## hungryugolino

So much for "zero tolerance".


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I guess all that was missing when the GKs did the blood sacrifice was for them to scream : BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!

They could have evacuated the sisters and virus bombed he planet... it was obviously beyond recover if everyone but a few sisters had fallen to corruption.


----------



## callred

small query but if you ended up with a GK vs GK game and had taken a stormraven would the psi-missiles if hitting a squad/character give everyone under the template a perils of the warp as they all count as psykers?

if so ouch !


----------



## hungryugolino

So Ward Knights are either borderline heretics, idiots, or both. Wonderful.


That said, there seem to be more than a few nods to fluff, and the reference to a novel's useage of the Bloodtide was a nice touch (at least in theory).


----------



## Azezel

Mathai said:


> The problem that people are having with this (rumored) act by the Grey Knights comes about because you are thinking about it with your morals. If one thing is clear to me, its that there is no one race that is the 'good guys' in the Warhammer 40K universe.


Note that I did not make any comment about the in-universe morality. Only the in-universe stupidity and the out-of-universe contempt shown for my army as well as the Grey Knights.

In any event it will lend a certain piquancy to my battles against the GK in future, and I've shined up my cricket bat on the off-chance I ever get the oprtunity to introduce it to Mat Ward's scrotum.


----------



## Mathai

Well, I guess to me it comes down to if it worked or not. Did sacrificing those Battle Sisters stop the Chaos Plot any?


----------



## Warlock in Training

Did I read some fluff on pg 511 about Space Marines being Mind Wipe by GKs?! SMs know daemons and chaos, and they allowed a mere handful of GKs mindwipe them. Also this Draigo character who waltz around in the Warp and Carves his initials in Mortarions Heart like nothing!? Is this accurate Matt Ward BS or what. I think its getting time to sell my Chaos and wash my hands of 40k if this is the current trend of things.


----------



## Salisant

Warlock in Training said:


> Did I read some fluff on pg 511 about Space Marines being Mind Wipe by GKs?! SMs know daemons and chaos, and they allowed a mere handful of GKs mindwipe them. Also this Draigo character who waltz around in the Warp and Carves his initials in Mortarions Heart like nothing!? Is this accurate Matt Ward BS or what. I think its getting time to sell my Chaos and wash my hands of 40k if this is the current trend of things.


I have not played 40k for over 10 years and it was stated in the fluff back then that valuable troops like space marines would be mind wiped after fighting chaos daemons, whereas expendable troops such as imperial guard would be eradicated to stop possible chaos taint spreading. At least you can't blame Matt Ward for that one :grin:


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> The Grey Knights are here to stop Chaos. Everything else comes second to that. This is why they work with aliens, this is why they entrust daemonic weapons to those that can be trusted to control them, and this is why they wont hesitate for a split second in cutting down whole convents of Battle Sisters if it will stop the spread of Chaos. If the lives of an entire planet are required to be sacrificed in order to ensure the whole of the Imperium survives, is what they (suppossedly) did any worse than the Imperial standard method for stopping the Tyranid invasion?


This is exactly it.
We DON'T know all the details of the story, so we can't reasonably make a fuss about it (yet a few people still try).
The GK have some of the highest authority in the Imperium, it's the Sister's DUTY to aid them in any way they can, just as with an Inquisitor. If their lives are required, just like Guardsmen, they are duty-bound to surrender them.

No matter how 'Chaos-y' you think it may be, the life of a Grey Knight is as valuable as hundreds of Sisters, thousands of Guardsmen; if they needed to use the Sisters as a sacrifice in some arcane ritual, then so be it.


And a note on sorcery:
Sorcery is simply the utilisation of psychic abilities possessed by a worshipper of Chaos; there's nothing more to it.
Other than that, and the importance of the Chaos Gods, sorcery and psychic stuff are EXACTLY the same.

Loyal Psykers can perform weird rituals too, they can use candles and divine using the guts of a cat, they just have different ways of doing things, because sacrifice is almost always associated with the Chaos Gods, and so isn't a part of their rituals.
Grey Knights are master Psykers, they know the limits of their abilities, and they know some of the crazy shit they can do with a convent of Psykers; they utilise this potential whenever necessary.
So go ahead, criticise the fluff for having them 'making a sacrifice', but without knowing the details the best we can do is guess; my guess is that they weren't sacrificing TO anything, but using the Sisters as part of a protective ritual, in order to ensure the GK's survival so they could properly battle the Daemonic threat.


----------



## Necrosis

Grey Knight Commander: Kill the sisters and use there blood so we can fight the daemons!
Normal Grey Knight: Can't we just bomb the place. I mean instead of going in guns blazing and risking our lives and killing our allies? I mean for all we know this might not even work.
Grey Knight Commander: NO! The daemons must see us before we defeat them!
Normal Grey Knight: That makes no sense.
Grey Knight Commander: Shut up and Do as I say!


----------



## gally912

Still can't agree with a GK working alongside aliens of any kind. Inquisitors using them are are one thing, but come on- GK with aliens? sorcery? Bah.


----------



## Katie Drake

Warlock in Training said:


> s this accurate Matt Ward BS or what. I think its getting time to sell my Chaos and wash my hands of 40k if this is the current trend of things.


Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Seriously people, get passionate about something that actually matters.


----------



## Hurricane

Warlock in Training said:


> Did I read some fluff on pg 511 about Space Marines being Mind Wipe by GKs?! SMs know daemons and chaos, and they allowed a mere handful of GKs mindwipe them. Also this Draigo character who waltz around in the Warp and Carves his initials in Mortarions Heart like nothing!? Is this accurate Matt Ward BS or what. I think its getting time to sell my Chaos and wash my hands of 40k if this is the current trend of things.


Feel free to leave. No one will miss you.


----------



## Winterous

gally912 said:


> Still can't agree with a GK working alongside aliens of any kind. Inquisitors using them are are one thing, but come on- GK with aliens? sorcery? Bah.


...*facepalm*
They work with aliens because they only care about the threat of Chaos; they are enlightened enough to know that working with xenos can be extremely beneficial.

More importantly, the Grey Knights AREN'T fielding aliens, it IS the Inquisitors who've requisitioned their abilities, the GK just happen to be there too.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> In a vacuum, I agree, this case is rather more complicated.
> 
> Remember that, excepting Faith & Fire (which is not a good book) every time the Sisters have been mentioned in the last seven years, it's been falling to chaos, or mind-controlled by Hitler, or getting eaten by space marines (Twice!), or having their numbers reduced by two orders of magnitude via retcon, or, well, or being sacrificed by _Grey Knights_! (And this sin't the first time the GK have murdered Sisters rather than talk, is it, Mr. Counter?)
> 
> It's starting to look like there may be a pattern developing...
> 
> 
> And, while the intention of this story is clearly to show what stone-cold badasses the GK are (as though killing Sisters is really impressive these days, when everyone has at least slaughtered a convent or two), it actually paints them as galactic-level tits, not to mention sorcerers and impure with it.
> 
> They are cargo-cultists. Seeing that the Sisters are both immune to corruption and the more mundane exanguination caused by the Bloodtide, the GK don't assume it has anything to do with the Sisters legendary strength of faithm or with Divine protection - they decide it must be a physical property of the Sister's blood and flesh, so they swoop down and take that by force.
> 
> It doesn't matter which army you collect, this story has something to piss everyone off.


-Eaten- by space marines? Where is this? Or is this a figure of speech? (if it's literal, I'm dying to know the context). I confess I'd always just assumed the anti sister propoganda was restricted to Sandy Mitchell (the only good battle sister is one who smokes, drinks, gambles, and sleeps around, the rest being incompetents, dupes, or mind controlled (ignoring the fact that they're one of the least likely forces to succumb)).


----------



## Mathai

Winterous said:


> ...*facepalm*
> They work with aliens because they only care about the threat of Chaos; they are enlightened enough to know that working with xenos can be extremely beneficial.
> 
> More importantly, the Grey Knights AREN'T fielding aliens, it IS the Inquisitors who've requisitioned their abilities, the GK just happen to be there too.


 
Remember, you need an Inquisitor of some sort on the board to be able to field the henchmen that contain aliens. Though I must admit, it will feel very odd to see an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor out there amongst a bunch of Jokaero. x.x


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> Remember, you need an Inquisitor of some sort on the board to be able to field the henchmen that contain aliens. Though I must admit, it will feel very odd to see an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor out there amongst a bunch of Jokaero. x.x


Henceforth, Inquisitor Coteaz shall be referred to exclusively as "The Space Monkey Herder".


----------



## Brovius

My friend plans on tearing out all pages relating to Coteaz, Inquisitorial warbands and the summary sheet, stapling it together in a makeshift cover and calling it Codex: Space Monkeys

EDIT: spelling


----------



## Lucian Kain

Helarquin have mysteriously guided Grey Knights through the webway labrinth to the Black Library hidden within and it was implied that alliances were made fom there,after warey conversation and in light of some great wisdom imparted.So the Xenos treatiese are old as the hills.Can't even remember where I got that from but its old.


----------



## mahavira

Brovius said:


> My friend plans on tearing out all pages relating to Coteaz, Inquisitorial warbands and the summary sheet, stapling it together in a makeshift cover and calling it Codex: Space Monkeys
> 
> EDIT: spelling


GET YOUR STINKING PAWS OFF ME YOU DAMN DIRTY APE!


----------



## Sworn Radical

Don't know ... they should have left the Jokaero out of this I think. While one out of thousand more or less radical Inquisitors _might_ employ the aid of a xenos in his or her personal cadre, they seem quite out of place in this Codex and especially the option to take multiple Jokaero smells ... wrong. No way an Inquisitor would field an army of apes really, and it kinda belies the way the orange lads were first portrayed in the original Rogue Trader. Maybe they should better have stayed there.

Apart from the apes, the Grey Knights Codex seems to be neat, if you ignore the Dreadknight sillyness and the Arco-Flagellants (What the hell are *they* doing in there ?!?!), powerful, maybe overpowered even, but I've not been back into 5th edition long enough to truely judge the level of pure rules nastiness.

Final gripe .... why the option to field Ordo Xenos and Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors ? The Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus alone, and Ordo Malleus Inquisitors would certainly have been enough.

Also, if you want to field an all henchmen inquisition-style army, you have to include Coteaz ... meh.


----------



## Dagmire

Sworn Radical said:


> Arco-Flagellants (What the hell are *they* doing in there ?!?!)


As you can take all types of inquisitors I feel its only right you can take the models they allow access to.
Yes they are normaly used in the SoB codex but so what? Why wouldn't an inquisitor have these guys around ?


----------



## Katie Drake

Sworn Radical said:


> Don't know ... they should have left the Jokaero out of this I think. While one out of thousand more or less radical Inquisitors _might_ employ the aid of a xenos in his or her personal cadre, they seem quite out of place in this Codex and especially the option to take multiple Jokaero smells ... wrong. No way an Inquisitor would field an army of apes really, and it kinda belies the way the orange lads were first portrayed in the original Rogue Trader. Maybe they should better have stayed there.


More options is good. If people don't like the idea of Jokaero, they're free to not use them. Those that do are also free to. More options isn't a bad thing.



> Apart from the apes, the Grey Knights Codex seems to be neat, if you ignore the Dreadknight sillyness and the Arco-Flagellants (What the hell are *they* doing in there ?!?!), powerful, maybe overpowered even, but I've not been back into 5th edition long enough to truely judge the level of pure rules nastiness.


It's becoming clear that the next incarnation of Codex: Witch Hunters (whatever it may be, be it a Codex: Sisters of Battle or whatever else) won't be having much if any Inquisitorial influence, so a lot of the Inquisitorial stuff (I realize that Arco-Flaggelants are technically Ecclesiarchy units) has been moved to Codex: Grey Knights which in all likelihood will function as an ad-hoc Codex: Inquisition and Friends.

Oh and the Arco-Flaggelants aren't overpowered or unfair.



> Final gripe .... why the option to field Ordo Xenos and Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors ? The Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus alone, and Ordo Malleus Inquisitors would certainly have been enough.


Because this is now Codex: Inquisition and because more options is a good thing.

Really people? So many complain about the dumbing down of the game and removal of options and when they add in additional possibilities it's a bad thing?



> Also, if you want to field an all henchmen inquisition-style army, you have to include Coteaz ... meh.


That's how 5th edition works.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Sworn Radical said:


> Arco-Flagellants (What the hell are *they* doing in there ?!?!)(


I've said this before but I guess you've missed it. Arco-Flagellants have actually pretty often been mentioned as Inquisitorial henchmen. There are a few books where arcos are part of a Inquisitors retinue. I also believe they are in the FFG RPG books as Inquisitorial henchmen.

Their relation to the ecclesiarchy is actually pretty unclear to me, if someone could point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it.
Does the Ecclesiarchy carry out the act of arco flagellation or are they just the care takers of these messed up beings?

C:WH only says for instance that a representative of the Ecclesiarchy has to be present to deploy them but I've not found any answer to why. Penitent Engines I can understand as they are holy relics of the Ecclesiarchy but an arco flagellant is just a altered human being.

I am expecting us to pretty much see a copy paste of the henchmen entry in codex Sisters of Battle, with a few slight name changes like Crusader to Adeptus Arbite or maybe the Warrior Acolyte into this.

I'm really looking forwards to codex Sisters of Battle and by this time next year we should have it or know the release month/date.


----------



## Mathai

Its been a while since I read the book, but wasnt there a radical Inquisitor in the first Eisenhorn book that made use of a couple Arco-Flagellants?


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, some of you obviously don't get it. They can't make up their minds whether to make Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Inquisition, so they shoehorned the latter in while simultaneously ruining the existing option for a pure Inquisition force. If they wanted to make a Codex: Inquisition, they should have done it right. Instead, we get Matt Ward's leavings, and a bad precedent for the listed units to boot, meaning all following books will have to use their idiotic stats if they even include them.


----------



## Katie Drake

hungryugolino said:


> Well, some of you obviously don't get it. They can't make up their minds whether to make Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Inquisition, so they shoehorned the latter in while simultaneously ruining the existing option for a pure Inquisition force. If they wanted to make a Codex: Inquisition, they should have done it right. Instead, we get Matt Ward's leavings, and a bad precedent for the listed units to boot, meaning all following books will have to use their idiotic stats if they even include them.


No, no.

It was a concious decision on Inquisition player's parts to play a "non-standard" force. I'm going to assume that most of the upset people played Radicals so didn't make much if any use of Grey Knights, so used lots of Stormtroopers, Daemonhosts and so on.

Now people are mad that their armies which didn't really operate in a manner that GW really intended (I mean... yes, they did put the option in there, but it was in no way the focus of Codex: Daemonhunters) is "invalidated" (which is, at least in my opinion, wrong. If these people refuse to use any imagination or make concessions to use their current armies then that's really nobody's problem but theirs).

Ask people that played 13th Company Space Wolves how they felt when they were told to use Blood Claws with the Mark of the Wulfen to represent Wulfen squads. How about Lost and the Damned players that are stuck using Guards or Orks?

The people who used these "non-standard" or "fringe" armies all have to make concessions to continue using their armies. This is really no different, so suck it up.


----------



## TheReverend

mahavira said:


> -Eaten- by space marines? Where is this? .


Can't remember which novel, but some Flesh Tearer went and devoured one or two when the red thirst got him, they were trying to shoot him, remembering that a couple of them had been eaten by blood angels in the past... 

must be a preferred delicacy of the sons of sanguinus


----------



## The Sullen One

Katie Drake said:


> More options is good. If people don't like the idea of Jokaero, they're free to not use them. Those that do are also free to. More options isn't a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> It's becoming clear that the next incarnation of Codex: Witch Hunters (whatever it may be, be it a Codex: Sisters of Battle or whatever else) won't be having much if any Inquisitorial influence, so a lot of the Inquisitorial stuff (I realize that Arco-Flaggelants are technically Ecclesiarchy units) has been moved to Codex: Grey Knights which in all likelihood will function as an ad-hoc Codex: Inquisition and Friends.
> 
> Oh and the Arco-Flaggelants aren't overpowered or unfair.
> 
> 
> 
> Because this is now Codex: Inquisition and because more options is a good thing.
> 
> Really people? So many complain about the dumbing down of the game and removal of options and when they add in additional possibilities it's a bad thing?
> 
> 
> 
> That's how 5th edition works.





hungryugolino said:


> Well, some of you obviously don't get it. They can't make up their minds whether to make Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Inquisition, so they shoehorned the latter in while simultaneously ruining the existing option for a pure Inquisition force. If they wanted to make a Codex: Inquisition, they should have done it right. Instead, we get Matt Ward's leavings, and a bad precedent for the listed units to boot, meaning all following books will have to use their idiotic stats if they even include them.





Katie Drake said:


> No, no.
> 
> It was a concious decision on Inquisition player's parts to play a "non-standard" force. I'm going to assume that most of the upset people played Radicals so didn't make much if any use of Grey Knights, so used lots of Stormtroopers, Daemonhosts and so on.
> 
> Now people are mad that their armies which didn't really operate in a manner that GW really intended (I mean... yes, they did put the option in there, but it was in no way the focus of Codex: Daemonhunters) is "invalidated" (which is, at least in my opinion, wrong. If these people refuse to use any imagination or make concessions to use their current armies then that's really nobody's problem but theirs).
> 
> Ask people that played 13th Company Space Wolves how they felt when they were told to use Blood Claws with the Mark of the Wulfen to represent Wulfen squads. How about Lost and the Damned players that are stuck using Guards or Orks?
> 
> The people who used these "non-standard" or "fringe" armies all have to make concessions to continue using their armies. This is really no different, so suck it up.


What we have here is a classic example of a company trying to maximise their market share for a product line. Personally I think getting rid of the Stormtroopers was a mistake, because it removes the options of weapons like Meltaguns and Plasma guns. However since a decision had been taken to make this Codex: Grey Knights (a decision made by more people than just Matt Ward) you can't really keep Inquistorial Stormtroopers sadly. Beyond this however Stormtroopers aren't as cool as Arco-flaggalents (damm sight more useful though).

Hence the decision to retain them and Inquisitors but not the Stormtroopers. Unfortunately this probably means that as Katie says the Witchhunters codex, or Codex: Sisters of Battle as it's more likely to be, will be Inquisition free, thereby robbing them of quite a bit of their character suicide. Of course this is only to be expected because Space Marines will sell a lot more than nuns with guns suicide.


----------



## mahavira

TheReverend said:


> Can't remember which novel, but some Flesh Tearer went and devoured one or two when the red thirst got him, they were trying to shoot him, remembering that a couple of them had been eaten by blood angels in the past...
> 
> must be a preferred delicacy of the sons of sanguinus


OK, what exactly is it about Blood Angels and their successor chapters that DOESN'T make them look like khornite heretics and traitors? I mean seriously, red thirst/black rage - sounds a lot like mark of khorne, and they refuse to allow the Adeptus Mechanicus to examine their special rhino engines (I'd accept "other chapters don't use them because the engines burn out too often" or something, but what loyalist reason is there for denying all chapters teh ability to use a superior rhino?).

<ANTI BLOOD ANGEL RANT DEACTIVATED> Sorry, hate alternate marine chapters with a passion, especially blood angels.

Since the GK have been made the chamber militant of the entire inquisition, has the Deathwatch been retconned out of existence?


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> No, no.
> 
> It was a concious decision on Inquisition player's parts to play a "non-standard" force. I'm going to assume that most of the upset people played Radicals so didn't make much if any use of Grey Knights, so used lots of Stormtroopers, Daemonhosts and so on.
> 
> Now people are mad that their armies which didn't really operate in a manner that GW really intended (I mean... yes, they did put the option in there, but it was in no way the focus of Codex: Daemonhunters) is "invalidated" (which is, at least in my opinion, wrong. If these people refuse to use any imagination or make concessions to use their current armies then that's really nobody's problem but theirs).


That's the wrong tack to take with the old-school whiners 

The only difference between the old Radical and Puritan armies was the Puritans had Grey Knights and Inducted Guard where the Radicals had 3 Daemonhosts and Allied Space Marines; the core (some ISTs in Rhinos with Meltaguns and as much S6 plus shooting as you could manage to cram in) in both cases was essentially the same.

Radicals weren't really a fringe army, and in a lot of ways the Radicals were actually the tastier flavour of Daemonhunter, if only because leaving Grey Knights out meant you had more points to spend on Allied units that were useful as opposed to Grey Knight-shaped pegs that you had to try and shove into the 5th Edition-shaped holes.

That's by the by, though. The fact is, if you're talking about armies built using Codex: Daemonhunters as the base, they all sucked. You couldn't make a good one if you tried. And believe me, I tried. A lot. The best way to build a Daemonhunters army that worked was to get a Space Marine army and use the DH units as Allies; that was equally true wether you were a Radical or a Puritan player.

Now, however, things are different. Now it is the dawning of a new day. Inquisitorial units still suck as badly as they ever did (that's right, =][= units have always been fail), but they're no longer the core, so unlike the old days this suckiness does not affect the overall effectiveness of the Codex, because unlike the GKs from Codex: Daemonhunters, the GKs from Codex: Grey Knights will beat your head in with sticks, Rend your vehicles to death, laugh off all the Glancing hits you can throw at them and then send in a big man in a Transformer suit to bank-shot his Super-Incinerator around a wall and wipe out your Lootaz. It is a good day, to be sure.

The only problem is, if you have an old-school Daemonhunters army of any kind, you will have to buy some models to update it... but if you think buying models is a problem then you're in the wrong hobby.

EDIT: And being told to use Blood Claws as Wulven was shit. I use my Wulven as Marked models instead 



TheReverend said:


> Can't remember which novel, but some Flesh Tearer went and devoured one or two when the red thirst got him, they were trying to shoot him, remembering that a couple of them had been eaten by blood angels in the past...
> 
> must be a preferred delicacy of the sons of sanguinus


What you need to remember about the Sisters is they're female, which makes them the target of every freakish, fetishistic inclination the fluff-writers have, and of course, with the Spess Mehrens being the setting's poster-boys, it has to be them doing the majority of the nastiness. Even that Faith & Fire book someone mentioned, a book in which the Sisters are the stars, has scenes dedicated to them being mind-raped, stripped in public, burned to death and torn to bits; they're fighting wars in the 41st millenium so you've got to expect a bit of that, but the way it's done is more than a little gratuitous. There's also a scene where the Dragon Lady and the Token Cutie-Pie are chained up by their wrists in a dungeon; the Dragon Lady remarks how it could be worse... they could be naked! 

... yeah, exactly 

So, yeah. They get a raw deal in the scribblings. I would probably be more offended if they weren't better than most of the MEQ armies game-wise. The fluff says Sisters get raped and eaten by Space Marines; the game says it's the other way around :-3


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> -Eaten- by space marines? Where is this? Or is this a figure of speech? (if it's literal, I'm dying to know the context). I confess I'd always just assumed the anti sister propoganda was restricted to Sandy Mitchell (the only good battle sister is one who smokes, drinks, gambles, and sleeps around, the rest being incompetents, dupes, or mind controlled (ignoring the fact that they're one of the least likely forces to succumb)).


It's happened twice, actually.

The sons of Malice sacrificed an Inquisitor and ate her strike-force of Celestians during a 'victory celebration', and the flesh Tearers ate a platoon of allied militia during the Third war for Armageddon, and then ate an entire commandery of sisters who complained, although depending on which source you read, that one might've been ret-conned into _only_ killing an entire commandery of sisters.


----------



## Katie Drake

Frank Fugger said:


> That's the wrong tack to take with the old-school whiners
> 
> The only difference between the old Radical and Puritan armies was the Puritans had Grey Knights and Inducted Guard where the Radicals had 3 Daemonhosts and Allied Space Marines; the core (some ISTs in Rhinos with Meltaguns and as much S6 plus shooting as you could manage to cram in) in both cases was essentially the same.
> 
> Radicals weren't really a fringe army, and in a lot of ways the Radicals were actually the tastier flavour of Daemonhunter, if only because leaving Grey Knights out meant you had more points to spend on Allied units that were useful as opposed to Grey Knight-shaped pegs that you had to try and shove into the 5th Edition-shaped holes.


Yeah, you're approaching things from a more gaming standpoint and not the fluff/theme angle of the member I'm conversing with. From a gaming standpoint, you're absolutely correct. There's just more than one way to look at the whole thing.


----------



## alex567

hello people its me to clear up your sister slaying issues,

ok firstly those of you who are on about the flesh tearers, this piece is from legends of the space marines and it is entitled: at gaius point, being a flesh tearer player i had to clear this up, so basiacly its a scene where the flesh tearers counter attack some orks attacking an imperial guard and sisters of battle position, the flesh tearers slaughter the orks then ina blood rage similar to the black rage but not completly far gone slaughter the sisters and the imperial guardsmen, it is not inentional but after slaughtering orks for 2 hours the adrenaline makes them do it (and its super space marine awsome adrenaline at that),

secondly today i took a look at the grey knight book,

and the story of them killing the sisters was to create anointments so they could walk through the blood tide which was created when a statue from the emperor was destroyed and a blood thirster spawned forth, the blood thirster summoned the blood time whch sent every one beserk and into a frenzy, so the sisters saw this and attacked the temple, a few were corrupt but most suvived the tide, they were slawted down to a few dozen, then the grey knights arrived, realised the only way to stop the blood tide was to use the blood of the pure and inocent, so they turned their blades on the sisters to create this anointment which they used on their armour, they lead an assault into the temple and at the head were 3 librarians and they killed the blood thirster and saved the planet (for future use), so as stated earlier by another person the grey knights will do whatever it takes to stop the daemons, but it wasnt a whole convernt of sisters it was 30 or so at the most, 

this is mostly accurate i dont think i have missed anything important, this should clear up any questions about what happend,

so their is a reasonable explenastion for why sisters get killed, but you cant say that their the only ones, space marines are slaughterd for showing even the tinest bit of corruption and entire planets are doomed by the grey knights/ordo maleus, if they are deemed to corrupt any way, so its not just the sisters that are killed by grey knights, they seem to kill every one when their bored

is that better?


----------



## Azezel

alex567 said:


> hello people its me to clear up your sister slaying issues,
> 
> ok firstly those of you who are on about the flesh tearers, this piece is from legends of the space marines and it is entitled: at gaius point, being a flesh tearer player i had to clear this up, so basiacly its a scene where the flesh tearers counter attack some orks attacking an imperial guard and sisters of battle position, the flesh tearers slaughter the orks then ina blood rage similar to the black rage but not completly far gone slaughter the sisters and the imperial guardsmen, it is not inentional but after slaughtering orks for 2 hours the adrenaline makes them do it (and its super space marine awsome adrenaline at that),


As I say. the story appears in more than one source, and is slightly different in each one, but yes, that's about the size of it, except for the eating of the militia and Sisters (in some sources).




alex567 said:


> the story of them killing the sisters was to create anointments so they could walk through the blood tide which was created when a statue from the emperor was destroyed and a blood thirster spawned forth, the blood thirster summoned the blood time whch sent every one beserk and into a frenzy, so the sisters saw this and attacked the temple, a few were corrupt but most suvived the tide,


They were corrupted too? That's even worse.



alex567 said:


> they were slawted down to a few dozen, then the grey knights arrived, realised the only way to stop the blood tide was to use the blood of the pure and inocent, so they turned their blades on the sisters to create this anointment which they used on their armour, they lead an assault into the temple and at the head were 3 librarians and they killed the blood thirster and saved the planet (for future use), so as stated earlier by another person the grey knights will do whatever it takes to stop the daemons, but it wasnt a whole convernt of sisters it was 30 or so at the most,
> 
> this is mostly accurate i dont think i have missed anything important, this should clear up any questions about what happend,
> 
> so their is a reasonable explenastion for why sisters get killed, but you cant say that their the only ones, space marines are slaughterd for showing even the tinest bit of corruption and entire planets are doomed by the grey knights/ordo maleus, if they are deemed to corrupt any way, so its not just the sisters that are killed by grey knights, they seem to kill every one when their bored
> 
> is that better?


Not really. I've never complained about Battle Sisters dying - they have a dangerous job and there is only war.

I've complained that they _always_ die. Stupidly, as often as not at the hands of 'loyalist' space marines. Gratuitously. Unnecesarilly.

Every. Single. God. Damned. Time.

If the above story featured Guardsmen, or Marines in the place of the Sisters, no one would mind. Know why? There are scads and scads of stories where the Guard wins. Even more stories about Marines winning glorious victories.

If this story existed as one small part of a long list of Sororitas-related tales, some of which involve victories, some defeats and some character-peices that don't easily fall into either catagory, then I'd be fine. It doesn't.

The Sisters exist at this point solely to prove how terrible a threat or magnificent another army is - by being killed. Only it doesn't work because the Sisters have never won a battle, so no-one is impressed when you beat/eat them.

I also stand by what I said about the Grey Knights' portrayal in that story, it makes them look like galactic level tits, and the fact that their plan _worked_ doesn't salvage that, it just shows that the story was written by a galactic level tit.


Also, it's now cannon that the sisterhood's immunity to corruption and warpcraft is not due to any depth of faith, but a special property of their blood. Midichlorians anyone?


----------



## alex567

Azezel said:


> Not really. I've never complained about Battle Sisters dying - they have a dangerous job and there is only war.


you miss under stood me i wasnt saying to you, it was the fact that my text had no paragraphs so i was asking if that was good enough or weather i needed to do something else, nothing about whether that made you feel better


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> As I say. the story appears in more than one source, and is slightly different in each one, but yes, that's about the size of it, except for the eating of the militia and Sisters (in some sources).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They were corrupted too? That's even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. I've never complained about Battle Sisters dying - they have a dangerous job and there is only war.
> 
> I've complained that they _always_ die. Stupidly, as often as not at the hands of 'loyalist' space marines. Gratuitously. Unnecesarilly.
> 
> Every. Single. God. Damned. Time.
> 
> If the above story featured Guardsmen, or Marines in the place of the Sisters, no one would mind. Know why? There are scads and scads of stories where the Guard wins. Even more stories about Marines winning glorious victories.
> 
> If this story existed as one small part of a long list of Sororitas-related tales, some of which involve victories, some defeats and some character-peices that don't easily fall into either catagory, then I'd be fine. It doesn't.
> 
> The Sisters exist at this point solely to prove how terrible a threat or magnificent another army is - by being killed. Only it doesn't work because the Sisters have never won a battle, so no-one is impressed when you beat/eat them.
> 
> I also stand by what I said about the Grey Knights' portrayal in that story, it makes them look like galactic level tits, and the fact that their plan _worked_ doesn't salvage that, it just shows that the story was written by a galactic level tit.
> 
> 
> Also, it's now cannon that the sisterhood's immunity to corruption and warpcraft is not due to any depth of faith, but a special property of their blood. Midichlorians anyone?


Can't quite agree with your final point - blood and body parts of saints are holy and reputed to have special properties because of the faith and holiness of the deceased saint, not because of some scientifically observable phenomenon. The special property of their blood was that it was the blood of pure and faithful battle sisters. Now whether martyring people to make use of their saintly remains actually works, I couldn't say - certainly the story would run better if the battle sisters offered their blood as opposed to their last thoughts being that they were being betrayed by the emperor's chosen.

Not having seen any fluff references to SoB outside Faith and Fire and the Ciaphus Cain novels (in which my complaint is less about whether they win or not and more about the one sidedly negative portrayal (it's one thing to say that a character like Cain wouldn't like them, quite another to make him always right about them)) I won't debate your larger point (which I expect is probably true anyway).


----------



## alex567

well i cant remember where but their have been a few books where the sisters are side characters but win the day, also that is a small chunk of but a large book, so when you get your own copy, you can see al the other countless races that have been betrayed,

the sisters being killed by knights story is in the legendary battles so at least the fact that they were mentioned should be a rejoyace moment, but just because sisters are a side character and dont generaly have any victories doesnt mean the games workshop hates them it just means that they like big muscular men more, how many people do you know that would buy a book because its a sister of battle over buying the latest space marine book, their are a few but its a small minority(the 51% being children senario), 

its because people field a marine army because its different, orks are featured every where but still are not common, imperial guard are your typical army, tau are flimsey aliens, chaos are classed as bad guys and no one wants to be the badguy, eldar are another flimsey alien but can be playes as tough, necrons are to old to be noticed, tyranids are again aliiens, 

the space marine is what every child dreams they want to be when they grow up, so why not collect their dream in a small to medium sized case, build that dream from scratch, colour that dream, and fight with your dream in your dream world.


----------



## Azezel

mahavira said:


> Can't quite agree with your final point - blood and body parts of saints are holy and reputed to have special properties because of the faith and holiness of the deceased saint, not because of some scientifically observable phenomenon.


I was being somewhat sarcastic in my final paragraph. the Grey Knights are still cargo cultists, though.



mahavira said:


> Not having seen any fluff references to SoB outside Faith and Fire and the Ciaphus Cain novels (in which my complaint is less about whether they win or not and more about the one sidedly negative portrayal (it's one thing to say that a character like Cain wouldn't like them, quite another to make him always right about them)) I won't debate your larger point (which I expect is probably true anyway).


Suffice it to say, it's not good. Off the top of my head:

Most of a Commandery are killed by Grey Knights in one of the GK novels (I forget) - one of the survivors manages to parlay with the GK and convince them to stop killing Sisters. The two armies team up - no sisters survive that.

One Daemon corrupts an entire Order in Daemonifuge.

Hitler in Space corrupts another entire Order in Cain's Last Stand.

The Sons of Malice eat a detachment of Celestians in (I think) Index Astartes.

The Flesh Tearers kill or eat a whole Commandery depending on which book you read.

An entire Shrine World's worth of Sisters are killed, mostly by one dreadnought in Fireborn. It shrugs off meltas, exorcist missiles, melta-bombs and the sacrifice of a Living Saint's Divinity (man, what?), unharmed. Obviously, the dread is then killed when a single marine throws his unpowered thunderhammer at it.

Three whole Orders are killed by Space Wolves in Codex: Space Wolves.

And my personal favourite, the elimination of three major Orders, and the reduction of the Sisters' strength by two orders of magnitude in a retcon, part of the two whole paragraphs given the Sisters in the 5e core book.

There might be more, but I'm too depressed to go look for it. In the 'victories' column, we have...

Well, during the second Seige of Terra, the Sisterhood held of four chapters of Astartes and the legions of Mars for six months, but they didn't actually win... Call it a no-score-draw.

In Faith & Fire the sisterhood makes a monumental cock-up, and then destroys a machine created by the Emperor for some reason the author never bothers to explain. But they did slap down a rebelious city, which is technically a very minor, inconsequential win. I'm still counting it. I'll take what I can get.

Sisters 1: Everyone else ∞.


I'm not sure if this is even on topic any more, so I'll say no more after this.


----------



## Necrosis

Azezel said:


> I was being somewhat sarcastic in my final paragraph. the Grey Knights are still cargo cultists, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Suffice it to say, it's not good. Off the top of my head:
> 
> Most of a Commandery are killed by Grey Knights in one of the GK novels (I forget) - one of the survivors manages to parlay with the GK and convince them to stop killing Sisters. The two armies team up - no sisters survive that.
> 
> One Daemon corrupts an entire Order in Daemonifuge.
> 
> Hitler in Space corrupts another entire Order in Cain's Last Stand.
> 
> The Sons of Malice eat a detachment of Celestians in (I think) Index Astartes.
> 
> The Flesh Tearers kill or eat a whole Commandery depending on which book you read.
> 
> An entire Shrine World's worth of Sisters are killed, mostly by one dreadnought in Fireborn. It shrugs off meltas, exorcist missiles, melta-bombs and the sacrifice of a Living Saint's Divinity (man, what?), unharmed. Obviously, the dread is then killed when a single marine throws his unpowered thunderhammer at it.
> 
> Three whole Orders are killed by Space Wolves in Codex: Space Wolves.
> 
> And my personal favourite, the elimination of three major Orders, and the reduction of the Sisters' strength by two orders of magnitude in a retcon, part of the two whole paragraphs given the Sisters in the 5e core book.
> 
> There might be more, but I'm too depressed to go look for it. In the 'victories' column, we have...
> 
> Well, during the second Seige of Terra, the Sisterhood held of four chapters of Astartes and the legions of Mars for six months, but they didn't actually win... Call it a no-score-draw.
> 
> In Faith & Fire the sisterhood makes a monumental cock-up, and then destroys a machine created by the Emperor for some reason the author never bothers to explain. But they did slap down a rebelious city, which is technically a very minor, inconsequential win. I'm still counting it. I'll take what I can get.
> 
> Sisters 1: Everyone else ∞.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is even on topic any more, so I'll say no more after this.


You forget Imperial Armour where they get beaten by a bunch of militia.


----------



## The Sullen One

The last few posts are perfect examples of what's wrong with Games Workshop. They can't seem to make their minds up as to whether profits or the hobby is more important to them.

On the one hand we have Codex: Grey Knights supplanting the old Daemonhunters codex in a move clearly designed to increase profits, on the other hand we have certain product lines (IG and WH) suffering from official neglect in order to increase Space Marine sales.

This gives rise to truly horrific background which sees Battle Sisters being killed by their allies or newcomers to 40k being told that only the Space Marines defend Humanity (Fear the Alien). Which is all good if you want to sell Space Marines, but rather a poor marketing choice when it comes to flogging IG and WH, in which case why doesn't GW just discontinue those lines?


----------



## Mathai

Azezel said:


> Most of a Commandery are killed by Grey Knights in one of the GK novels (I forget) - one of the survivors manages to parlay with the GK and convince them to stop killing Sisters. The two armies team up - no sisters survive that.



Warning: Spoiler below. Do not read if you havent yet read the first Grey Knights book



Not to defend either side of this one, since I can see both sides pretty well. (THey DO seem to get beat up alot) But this instance is actually one of the times I thought they shined.

The book you are thinking of is the original 'Grey Knights' book of the Grey Knights trilogy. The Grey Knights are in a system hunting down the return point of a very powerfull Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. While they are there, the things influence builds and all its cults it assembled in advance attack the systems backwater defenses. (THe Daemon Prince being quite powerful and having forsaw its need to return there so long ago.)

Well one of the groups to answer the call are the Battle Sisters you alluded to. Along with alot of local army, and a massive contingent of Imperial Guard, they all muster on the capitol planet under the command of the local Ecclesiarchy. Well, this all happens while the Grey Knights are out actually looking for the source of the trouble so they can kill it again. Unfortunately, while they are away a renegade Inquisitor working for the Daemon Prince swoops in. Capitolizing on the common ignorance of the Ordo Malleus and the secrecy of the Grey Knights, the fallen Inquisitor convinces the Ecclesiarchy that he is the good guy and the Grey Knights are the bad guys and actually servants of Chaos.

Well, the Grey Knights come to the planet only to meet the full defensive lines of the Battle Sister, the Ecclesiarchial defense forces, the sector defenders, and the Imperial Guard. All seemed royally screwed for the Grey Knights, and they are beginning to fight their way through at the point the Battle Sisters are stationed. (Thats the fight between them that you alluded to) 

The fight was only just beginning so it really wasnt certain who was winning yet when it came to a stop. Though the Sisters DID manage to snag themselves at least one Grey Knight. But it stopped because the Cannoness recognized who the Grey Knights were. Exactly two people on the planet were esteemed enough to know what a Grey Knight was. One was the enemy, the other was a Battle Sister.

She very wisely tested the Grey Knight leader, and impressed me greatly that she was able to put her battle lust and hate for all enemies of the Imperium to the side enough to think clearly in the heat of battle. 

So they teamed up, and the Canonness realized that the Battle Sisters were needed to defend the place the Grey Knights needed to go from the rest of that massive army. So while the Grey Knights went in to stop the Daemon Prince, she and her small contingent of Battle Sisters fought very valiantly against what was without a doubt unbeatable odds. THe thing is though, they almost actually did it. The Canonness was about to kill the rogue Inquisitor when he made his invulnerable save. x.x 

So yeah, they died to a woman. BUT, if it werent for them fighting with such bravery and valiant determination, the entire sector would have been wiped out as one of Tzeentch's top Daemon Princes returned to reality. 

While I suppose some people would call that 'Another Battle Sister loss' I would have to disagree. If it wasnt for them, that book would have ended as a Chaos victory. So even though not one of them lived, I finished that book having great respect for the Sisters of Battle. They didnt lose to their own side. Even though it was all Imperial Guard and other completely loyal to the Emperor soldiers like them, they all were serving Chaos because of the Rogue Inquisitor. These Battle Sisters died fighting against a Chaos plot.


----------



## LukeValantine

Wow the GW's hate for sisters is almost palpable (I guess they only like alien woman and weird crab succubi...damn they most have some weird fetishes.). 

Even though I am a chaos devotee I swear if they release a new inquestion book, I will personally collect then play the most broken sisters army I can find in the new book, then I will seek out and beat down any GK/SM and especially any blood angel player I can find locally.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Katie Drake said:


> More options is good. If people don't like the idea of Jokaero, they're free to not use them. Those that do are also free to. More options isn't a bad thing.


Well, I was referring to the fluffy fluff aspect of things, nothing more. 
Of course more options and variations are nice to have in an army list. 




> Oh and the Arco-Flaggelants aren't overpowered or unfair.


Mmm, I never used the word _'unfair'_.
And by _'overpowered' _I was referring to the army list / codex in its entirety. But that's just what the local gaming crowd at my FLGS were saying about it after one read. *shrugs* Can't quite judge that for myself since I'm not that deeply rooted in 5th ed. rules as of now, having returned to the hobby but a short while ago. 
As for the Arco's background, I stand corrected by MadCow.





> Really people? So many complain about the dumbing down of the game and removal of options and when they add in additional possibilities it's a bad thing?


I wouldn't be so quick as to call everybody with an opinion of their own a complainer, really. I was mostly referring to fluffy bits and the odd feeling I got from having Ordos Hereticus and Xenos in a Grey Knights list. That's all. If in doubt just re-read my earlier post.
Like I stated above, I'm all for having a multitude of options and customization approaches for army lists.  Nothing more boring than uniform armies all over again. But then, I'm not a person searching for the most powerful or most competitive army lists - my lists are pure fluff and atmosphere lists, and heh, I like it that way, even if it means I'm going to lose a game or two more that other players. 

Cheers !


----------



## Katie Drake

Sworn Radical said:


> Well, I was referring to the fluffy fluff aspect of things, nothing more.
> Of course more options and variations are nice to have in an army list.


Even still, 40K fluff is not an ongoing, unchanging narrative like a novel that you read from start to finish and no matter how many years go by it always remains the same. Every few months a new Codex or novel comes out that in one way or another changes something previously established. This is intentional. The 40K background is intended to be a backdrop for people to set their own stories in. It is not an absolute. People are free to modify, ignore or cut out any and all aspects of it to suit their own preferences. So if one person dislikes the idea of Jokaero following Inquisitors around... then in his/her interpretation of the 40K lore the few surviving Jokaero are hunted like every other xenos race. If another person dislikes the idea that the Grey Knights have to answer to the Inquisition, then that person is free to write their own fluff where the Grey Knights are entirely independent and act of their own accord.




> Mmm, I never used the word _'unfair'_.
> And by _'overpowered' _I was referring to the army list / codex in its entirety. But that's just what the local gaming crowd at my FLGS were saying about it after one read. *shrugs* Can't quite judge that for myself since I'm not that deeply rooted in 5th ed. rules as of now, having returned to the hobby but a short while ago.


Ugh. I wish people would give things a fair chance before judging them except in extreme cases. If every model in the army was 5 points each, I'd understand this reaction.



> But then, I'm not a person searching for the most powerful or most competitive army lists - my lists are pure fluff and atmosphere lists, and heh, I like it that way, even if it means I'm going to lose a game or two more that other players.


Sure, but as a fluffy player, you agree that having a multitude of options is a good thing since it enables a greater range of fluffy armies to be created, correct? Or am I off base?


----------



## The Sullen One

While it's nice that the Ordo Xenos finally made it into a codex (they being the most interesting and unusual of the three Ordos) it does seem odd that the Hereticus would be there too.

After all as Sworn Radical pointed out, the Sisters had never heard of the Grey Knights (it's only when the Cannoness hears some of the knights coming out with that "for the emperor" bollocks that she calls a ceasefire). Now if the Sisters haven't heard of these guys, it's a good bet, given inquistion politics, that a lot of hereticus inquistors haven't either.

So they should really have been left to wait until the new Witchunters/Sisters of Battle codex comes out. Xenos on the other hand are kind of neutral in disputes between the Malleus and Hereticus so they can stay.

P.S If I can use some Chaos-worshipping Orks in games I won't be complaining.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Katie Drake said:


> fluff/theme


What do those words mean? :-o



Azezel said:


> I've complained that they _always_ die. Stupidly, as often as not at the hands of 'loyalist' space marines. Gratuitously. Unnecesarilly.
> 
> Every. Single. God. Damned. Time.
> 
> If the above story featured Guardsmen, or Marines in the place of the Sisters, no one would mind. Know why? There are scads and scads of stories where the Guard wins. Even more stories about Marines winning glorious victories.
> 
> If this story existed as one small part of a long list of Sororitas-related tales, some of which involve victories, some defeats and some character-peices that don't easily fall into either catagory, then I'd be fine. It doesn't.
> 
> The Sisters exist at this point solely to prove how terrible a threat or magnificent another army is - by being killed. Only it doesn't work because the Sisters have never won a battle, so no-one is impressed when you beat/eat them.
> 
> I also stand by what I said about the Grey Knights' portrayal in that story, it makes them look like galactic level tits, and the fact that their plan _worked_ doesn't salvage that, it just shows that the story was written by a galactic level tit.


That. It bothers me, too. Fetishise them if you must, but give them a win for flip's sake...



> Also, it's now cannon that the sisterhood's immunity to corruption and warpcraft is not due to any depth of faith, but a special property of their blood. Midichlorians anyone?


Parasite Eve, more like.

Is that ACTUALLY canon now?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

/cynicism on
Here's a thought, maybe Matt Ward, Jervis, Phil Kelly and the rest have wife problems. Maybe their wives talk shit about them for working with toys for a living. Since they are/were gamers they dont have the balls to stand up for themselves so they beat down on the Sisters of Battle as often as they can as a way to relieve stress and frustration with their wives?

I have no idea if any of them are married or have girl friends but it's pretty obvious they are all either homosexuals (no offence meant to anyone who is homosexual) and despise/fear/hate women (would explain their love for buffed up manly space marines having Blood Angels as some kind of perverse fantasy of theirs) or so insecure about women that they dont know how to handle them so in a lame attempt to look cool amongst themselves they talk down upon the Sisters as some sort of gangsta hood wannabe attempt.
Ward : Yeah, wassup Jervis! I just wrote a piece of fluff where those bitches of tha emprah got OWND! 
Jevis : WORD ma brotha from anotha motha!
/cynicism off

You would think with the Sisters constantly getting beaten into a pulp every time a heretic scratches his balls that the Ecclesiarchy would try to find a better way to protect their interests... Then again all of this is made up and it's GWs choice to have the only strong human female fighting army in the 40k universe be the punching bag of literally everyone else.


----------



## LukeValantine

Well at least there is still that one instance were some sisters save a city from night lord terror tactics.....can't think of another instance where they did not suck in the fluff, but still nice to see human female soldiers in 40k accomplish something...well beyond dieing of course.


----------



## Frank Fugger

The saddest thing is, in game terms, the Sisters are at least as potent as any Marine variant you could name, and are far better than most.


----------



## Dagmire

Frank Fugger said:


> The saddest thing is, in game terms, the Sisters are at least as potent as any Marine variant you could name, and are far better than most.


I dont know where you play but the SM players must be real bad if sisters are better then most.
Having played sisters for around 3 years now i KNOW they are not that competitive. True a good player will beat a poor player most of the time. But if all things are equal apart form teh army you play then sisters will normaly lose.


----------



## alex567

hi, to all people out their, 
the sisters of battle or witch hunters codex when it is remade will follow suit to all the other codex's so their will be about 8-9 pages of sisters kicking ass, so if you want to see sisters of battle win just wait for about a year to 2 years,

also the post about the space wolves killing the sisters, it was their faulgt they went to attack fenris/ examine the space wolves abotu them worshiping pagan gods so the space wolves shot them for invading their space, not all the sisters died some of them made it away


----------



## hungryugolino

MadCowCrazy said:


> /cynicism on
> Here's a thought, maybe Matt Ward, Jervis, Phil Kelly and the rest have wife problems. Maybe their wives talk shit about them for working with toys for a living. Since they are/were gamers they dont have the balls to stand up for themselves so they beat down on the Sisters of Battle as often as they can as a way to relieve stress and frustration with their wives?
> 
> I have no idea if any of them are married or have girl friends but it's pretty obvious they are all either homosexuals (no offence meant to anyone who is homosexual) and despise/fear/hate women (would explain their love for buffed up manly space marines having Blood Angels as some kind of perverse fantasy of theirs) or so insecure about women that they dont know how to handle them so in a lame attempt to look cool amongst themselves they talk down upon the Sisters as some sort of gangsta hood wannabe attempt.
> Ward : Yeah, wassup Jervis! I just wrote a piece of fluff where those bitches of tha emprah got OWND!
> Jevis : WORD ma brotha from anotha motha!
> /cynicism off.


Now, now, Mad. That's uncalled for. Homosexuality is a perfectly legitimate orientation, and there's no reason to insult an entire group for the misdeeds of a few. 


Also, GW does single out the sisters when it comes time for a kicking. Even the Guard get less abuse recently. Also, making a fluffy army would be nice if they'd actually given more HQ/Troop options. One loony psyker with a hammer does not an army list make.


----------



## alex567

hungryugolino said:


> Now, now, Mad. That's uncalled for. Homosexuality is a perfectly legitimate orientation, and there's no reason to insult an entire group for the misdeeds of a few.


thats why mad crazy cow put no offence to any one that is a homosexual


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Dagmire said:


> I dont know where you play but the SM players must be real bad if sisters are better then most.
> Having played sisters for around 3 years now i KNOW they are not that competitive. True a good player will beat a poor player most of the time. But if all things are equal apart form teh army you play then sisters will normaly lose.


I think he meant more as a fluff based statement. If there is a hierarchy then SM would be on top followed by Sisters and then Guard.
Sisters are humans in power armour but they also have their faith making them superior to normal humans, even to the point of surpassing SM is certain cases (+2S +2I Inv save etc). Despite all of this they get wiped to the last woman 99.99% of the time when they are beaten, if someone does survive it's only so they can be sacrificed to a god or another (or as Vects personal toys).



alex567 said:


> thats why mad crazy cow put no offence to any one that is a homosexual


You always have to put those pointers in now days because if you dont someone will take offence. It's like if you make a gay joke or anything related to it you have to add "not that there's anything wrong with that at the end" or you might just get your ass sued (no pun intended...sigh....). Bah, I should just claim I'm bisexual or gay so I wouldn't have to worry about that. It's one of those "if you aren't yourself you are not allowed to say the word"...

Kinda like the word Ninja...


----------



## mahavira

For what it's worth, I suspect the problem is more disinterest than anything else - almost nobody is writing fluff that's actually -about- SoB, so when they get mentioned (which isn't particularly often) it's in the context of fluff where someone else is supposed to shine. It also doesn't help that the primary battles of SoB are against what amount to traitor guard (whether actually cultists or just following a heterodox leader) - for all that they created the 40k setting where religious wars against heretics are not only common but actually justifiable in many cases, I suspect it's still an activity many of the writers aren't really comfortable with. Chaos Marines and aliens are declared enemies outside the imperium's borders, so it's easier to write about the marines or imperial guard fighting them.


----------



## Frank Fugger

Dagmire said:


> I dont know where you play but the SM players must be real bad if sisters are better then most.


Marine players are generally bad in my experience, but even if you meet a good one the Sisters still have a decent shot at winning, assuming you've brought a balanced army and aren't relying on things like Faith Points and close combat (with anything other than the Saint, who is a bit of a beast) to see you through.


----------



## Sworn Radical

Katie Drake said:


> Sure, but as a fluffy player, you agree that having a multitude of options is a good thing since it enables a greater range of fluffy armies to be created, correct? Or am I off base?


You're quite correct, Katie. Variation rules. IF now, the options available to the dedicated player would be atmospheric and fluffy as well, then that would be a most desirable state IMHO. I'd rather have more and varied / colourful units in a Codex, than but a handful of powerful ones. 
In regard to the Grey Knight Codex, I would've just left out the Hereticus and Xenos Inquisitors, but as you stated earlier that's a topic up for discussion of course. But we all have personal preferences.


----------



## Judas Masias

Ok guys i found something really nice here. This guy was took his time and broke down all the parts from the Grey Knights Terminator sprues so that you can see every little detail. So without ferther delay here they are. Enjoy.

View attachment 11963

Top Row: Terminator Helmets (5), Exposed Heads (2), Bottom Row: Paladin Terminator Helmets (5)

View attachment 11964

Torso fronts (5) and backs (5)

View attachment 11965

Arms (14), Lower right corner: heavy weapon arm (1)

View attachment 11966

Shoulder Pads (12)

View attachment 11967

Legs (5)

View attachment 11968

Halberds (5), tilt shields (20)

View attachment 11969

Apothecary conversion bits (1 set), swords (5), staff (1)

View attachment 11970

Falchions (10), hammer (1)

View attachment 11971

Storm bolters (5), Psilencer (1), Psycannon (1), Incinerator (1)

View attachment 11972

Purity seals (11), reliquaries (4), hands (7), tabard (1), severed bloodletter head (1), servo-skull (1), various belt attachments (7), books (7), daemon skull (1), banner top/reliquary (1)

View attachment 11973

Standard (1)


Full cerdit goes to That Guy James for all his hard work clipping out all those bits for us to enjoy. Here is the link:http://thatguyjames.net/?p=943:goodpost::yahoo:


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## Azezel

mahavira said:


> for all that they created the 40k setting where religious wars against heretics are not only common but actually justifiable in many cases, I suspect it's still an activity many of the writers aren't really comfortable with.



I think this is certainly the case. British people tend to be somewhere between indefferent and hostile to religeon. As a nation we generally both hate and fear zealous, overt religeon.

This wouldseem to have a powerful influence on GW's writers. Even if they are not doing it on purpose, there is a part of the British psyche that says a zealot must ipso fact o be stupid and evil.

Now, the sister's zealotry is entirely justifiable, in an objective sense, but the writers tend not to examine the matter, and just go with their gut. Case in point, Sandy Mitchel's portrayal.


Also, there's plain incompetance, let's not forget that.


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## rasolyo

Azezel said:


> I think this is certainly the case. British people tend to be somewhere between indefferent and hostile to religeon. As a nation we generally both hate and fear zealous, overt religeon.
> 
> This wouldseem to have a powerful influence on GW's writers. Even if they are not doing it on purpose, there is a part of the British psyche that says a zealot must ipso fact o be stupid and evil.


I'm not British, so this probably explains a lot to me. On the other hand, if Sisters have always been the foil in every book but their own, then maybe that's all they were really meant to be in the 40k universe.


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## mahavira

rasolyo said:


> I'm not British, so this probably explains a lot to me. On the other hand, if Sisters have always been the foil in every book but their own, then maybe that's all they were really meant to be in the 40k universe.


I have difficulty believing they'd go to the time and effort (and back in the 90's it was more trouble than it is now) to create a number of highly detailed metal miniatures and accompanying rules if the idea was that they were only intended to be "the foil", a status which one would expect to depress sales somewhat and reduce their return on the investment. Then again, I have difficulty believing that they would pull the codex and all boxed sets more than a year before even announcing a release date for replacements, but they did it (I hope that some future standard bearer or other article explains that bit of marketing genius).


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## LukeValantine

Could be they are axing the army, although with their absence in the new GK book I doubt it.


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## Azezel

mahavira said:


> I have difficulty believing they'd go to the time and effort (and back in the 90's it was more trouble than it is now) to create a number of highly detailed metal miniatures and accompanying rules if the idea was that they were only intended to be "the foil", a status which one would expect to depress sales somewhat and reduce their return on the investment.


For anyone who is interested, I'll indulge you with a breif history lesson.










This is the first known mention of the sisters of Battle (sorry about the image quality). You'll perceive that they started out as rather intimidating figures.

That image is Sister Sin gunning down a Marine of the Rainbow Warriors.










No Rainbow Warriors survived the purge - though of course that has since been retconned.

Remember however, that Rogue Trader was a very very different beast to the game we know today. Whilst there was a lot more humour, the grimdark was also embraced to a greater degree. An order of religeous zealots are, as I say, terrifying to the British subconcious. There is almost nothing so grimdark as theocracy.

So it's natural to add these religious zealots into this playground of horrible things that was the Rogue Trader universe. And what's more terrifying than them swooping around conducting 'purity tests' on whomever they wish?

So yes, in a sense the Sisters of Battle _were_ created as a foil for other elements - or perhaps foil is the wrong word. They were intended as antagonists in an almost omni-antagonistic setting. A threat feared by everyone.

Only later did they appear as an army with models and rules and whatnot - and later still did they evolve from looming threat to universal butt-monkey.



Azezel said:


> If I were a pettier, more suspicious man I'd speculate that GW's treatment of the Sisterhood demonstrates a devolution from fear of women to contempt of women. The idealized male form - the Space Marine (hyper-masculine, but asexual) was, in rogue trader days, imasculated and threatened by the female avatar, and is now triumphant over her.


I once said that, and I stand by my conviction that it isn't true.

What I actually believe is that GW's treatment of the Sisterhood demonstrates a devolution from fear of _religeon_ to contempt of _religeon_.

The idealized rationalist, - the Space Marine (atheistic, but not incapable of faith in what truely matters) was, in rogue trader days, imasculated and threatened by the religeon, and is now triumphant over it.


I suspect it's no coincidence that Matthew Farrer, the only author in the black Library who portrays religeon as an important and positive part of his character's lives is also the only author to portray the Sisters as competant, inteligent soldiers.


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## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> I suspect it's no coincidence that Matthew Farrer, the only author in the black Library who portrays religeon as an important and positive part of his character's lives is also the only author to portray the Sisters as competant, inteligent soldiers.


The only author I know about that writes about the sisters is James Swallow, he has a book and a audio book coming out this year about them.
What has Matthew Farrer written about them? Just a mention here and there or a full book about them?

Enforcer is the only book by him I could find. I have it sitting on my desk infront of me but haven't started reading it yet. Need to complete the GK omnibus first.


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## mahavira

Azezel said:


> I suspect it's no coincidence that Matthew Farrer, the only author in the black Library who portrays religeon as an important and positive part of his character's lives is also the only author to portray the Sisters as competant, inteligent soldiers.


Dan Abnett actually deals with faith somewhat in the "Saint" sequence of Gaunt's Ghosts novels, with faith (particularly devotion to Saint Sabbat) being an important motivation for Gaunt himself and for several other characters, with miracles, visions, the works. I think he would do a fine job of Sisters of Battle if he cared to/was asked to (and actually think it would be a good tie in with his work on the Sabbat crusade, as I cannot imagine that the adepta sororitas is not deeply involved in it, albeit not in the kinds of theatre where the Ghosts are - the closest they'd come would be the ghosts doing preparatory recon and sabotage prior to a major assault by sororitas).


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## mahavira

MadCowCrazy said:


> The only author I know about that writes about the sisters is James Swallow, he has a book and a audio book coming out this year about them.
> What has Matthew Farrer written about them? Just a mention here and there or a full book about them?
> 
> Enforcer is the only book by him I could find. I have it sitting on my desk infront of me but haven't started reading it yet. Need to complete the GK omnibus first.


There are battle sister side characters in Enforcer.


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## Lucian Kain

Paladins,whats the point?

Has anyone found a way to use them effectively?

Some things I just can't fathom about how "The name of witch we shall not speak" intended sertain units to behave or have any real roll on the table top.

It gets on my nerves,I suppose at least the options there.


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## Katie Drake

Lucian Kain said:


> Paladins,whats the point?
> 
> Has anyone found a way to use them effectively?
> 
> Some things I just can't fathom about how "The name of witch we shall not speak" intended sertain units to behave or have any real roll on the table top.
> 
> It gets on my nerves,I suppose at least the options there.


Short answer:

Mordrak, +4 Ghost Knights, Brotherhood banner.
Libby, Summoning/Sanctuary/Shrouding/Might of Titan, 2 skulls
5 Paladins, 2 master crafted psycannons, 4 mixed MC CC weapons 
5 GKT, 1 Cannon, MC Hammer
10 GKT, 2 Cannons, MC Hammer
2 Dreadknights, Personal Teleporters

2000/2000

Long answer:

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/grey-knight-list-build-mordrak-and_21.html


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## Kettu

Hello, back again and with my first official warning from Warseer(can I join the club yet? Or does it have to be a full banning?). (I called the Sister-Grey Knight-Blood theft thing bull s#!t, turns out that common aussie vernacular censored with symbols is against the rules)



mahavira said:


> Dan Abnett actually deals with faith somewhat in the "Saint" sequence of Gaunt's Ghosts novels, with faith (particularly devotion to Saint Sabbat) being an important motivation for Gaunt himself and for several other characters, with miracles, visions, the works. I think he would do a fine job of Sisters of Battle if he cared to/was asked to (and actually think it would be a good tie in with his work on the Sabbat crusade, as I cannot imagine that the adepta sororitas is not deeply involved in it, albeit not in the kinds of theatre where the Ghosts are - the closest they'd come would be the ghosts doing preparatory recon and sabotage prior to a major assault by sororitas).


Turns out, Dan has never mentioned the Sisters of Battle, even off hand.
He has literally never even mentioned an entire faction, and one of the most important ones within the Imperium at that.
I doubt he'd do a good job, he doesn't even know they exist.
Oh, and expanded materials about the Sabbat Worlds Crusade don't mention the Sisters either. They just did not appear in the crusade in any capacity.


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## The Mad Hatter

Katie Drake said:


> Short answer:
> 
> Mordrak, +4 Ghost Knights, Brotherhood banner.
> Libby, Summoning/Sanctuary/Shrouding/Might of Titan, 2 skulls
> 5 Paladins, 2 master crafted psycannons, 4 mixed MC CC weapons
> 5 GKT, 1 Cannon, MC Hammer
> 10 GKT, 2 Cannons, MC Hammer
> 2 Dreadknights, Personal Teleporters
> 
> 2000/2000
> 
> Long answer:
> 
> http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/grey-knight-list-build-mordrak-and_21.html


Except that the Librarian can't summon after DS.


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## Frank Fugger

Lucian Kain said:


> Paladins,whats the point?
> 
> Has anyone found a way to use them effectively?
> 
> Some things I just can't fathom about how "The name of witch we shall not speak" intended sertain units to behave or have any real roll on the table top.
> 
> It gets on my nerves,I suppose at least the options there.


Here's something I fancy trying out at 1500pts:

GM w/ Psycannon, 2x Servo-Skull
5x Paladins, 2x Psycannon, Hammer & whatever CC crap
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 3x Halberd
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannon, 2x Halberd
5x Terminators, 1x Psycannon, Hammer & whatever CC crap
10x Strike Squad, 2x Psycannon
10x Strike Squad, 2x Psycannon

Sort of self-explanatory, really; Psycannon spam with Terminators. You could replace the Paladin Squad with a BroCap and 5 more Terminators and get the same net effect except with Ld10, although you end up losing wounds AND Holocaust, which is your only Blast.


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## Winterous

Azezel said:


> The idealized rationalist, - the Space Marine (atheistic, but not incapable of faith in what truely matters) was, in rogue trader days, imasculated and threatened by the religeon, and is now triumphant over it.


Space Marines aren't atheistic at all!
They're warrior monks, they have faith, but it isn't who they are.
Sisters of Battle are fanatics, their faith IS who they are.


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## Ninja D

Azezel said:


> I was being somewhat sarcastic in my final paragraph. the Grey Knights are still cargo cultists, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Suffice it to say, it's not good. Off the top of my head:
> 
> Most of a Commandery are killed by Grey Knights in one of the GK novels (I forget) - one of the survivors manages to parlay with the GK and convince them to stop killing Sisters. The two armies team up - no sisters survive that.


The Sisters are duped by a renegade (read chaos-corrupted) Inquisitor into thinking the Grey Knights are Traitor Marines (seeing as 99% of the Imperium have no idea who the Grey Knights are). When they see the Grey Knights they immediately attack them. The GKs take a holy beating and lose a few in the battle and only by happenstance does the Justicar cause the lead Sister to stop for a moment and doubt the inquisitor's claim that these are Traitor Marines (the Justicar finishes one of the Sister's battle prayers they yell when they are fighting). The lead Sister makes the GK read from his own book sealed on his breastplate to prove he isn't corrupted (the very words in the book are an anethema to Chaos) only because she remembered a small bit of information she knew from some previous battle alongside Grey Knights.

The Sisters and the Grey Knights team up. All the sisters are killed eventually in the epic fight that follows but give a good showing of themselves. And in fairness only a few (3-5) of originally thirty Grey Knights survive, also.

I know, it's just one instance in the line of varying fluff and counter-fluff in 40k. I just wanted to clear that part up.


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## OIIIIIIO

Alright ... I have a question for those of you that have access to the GK codex. I have heard these things:
1. All PW are counted as force weapons
2. All force weapons ignore eternal warrior special rule

Are these things correct? I had a quick perusal of the codex but could not read into it long enough to see if these were in fact true.


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## RedemptionNL

OIIIIIIO said:


> Alright ... I have a question for those of you that have access to the GK codex. I have heard these things:
> 1. All PW are counted as force weapons
> 2. All force weapons ignore eternal warrior special rule
> 
> Are these things correct? I had a quick perusal of the codex but could not read into it long enough to see if these were in fact true.


Sort of. All Nemesis weapons are Force weapons, and it only requires one psyhic test to 'activate' an entire squad's (excluding attached independent characters) weapons to inflict Instant Death with all wounds. This Instant Death does _not_ ignore Eternal Warrior.

However, all Nemesis weapons also have a rule called Daemonbane. If a Psyker or Daemon suffered one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon with this rule (and they're still standing), they have to take a Leadership test at the end of the Assault phase. If failed, they're removed from play as a casualty (thus ignoring Eternal Warrior).


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## Commander_Culln

yay! JUst want to shout to the world my book arrived this morning! XDXDXDXD


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## sybarite

Commander_Culln said:


> yay! JUst want to shout to the world my book arrived this morning! XDXDXDXD


Congrats l should get mine tomorrow if Aus Post dose well for once.


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## hungryugolino

> Turns out, Dan has never mentioned the Sisters of Battle, even off hand.
> He has literally never even mentioned an entire faction, and one of the most important ones within the Imperium at that.
> I doubt he'd do a good job, he doesn't even know they exist.
> Oh, and expanded materials about the Sabbat Worlds Crusade don't mention the Sisters either. They just did not appear in the crusade in any capacity.


Not true. Gaunt has visions of a Sister of Battle, they're said to play roles in the Crusade, and the "Sabbat-pattern" helmet is canon.


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## Brovius

sybarite said:


> Congrats l should get mine tomorrow if Aus Post dose well for once.


Wait, what?
How are you guys getting it a week and a half early? Which site did you order from?


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## Katie Drake

Brovius said:


> Wait, what?
> How are you guys getting it a week and a half early? Which site did you order from?


GW tends to ship things a bit early if you pre-order.


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## coke123

sybarite said:


> Congrats l should get mine tomorrow if Aus Post dose well for once.


:rofl: Yeah, good luck with that, buddy.



Brovius said:


> Wait, what?
> How are you guys getting it a week and a half early? Which site did you order from?


Maybe they sacrificed some Battle Sisters in order to appease their god?

Anywho, GW instore orders should have them in our hands on whatever day it is your local store receives orders before the release date- for the Sydney City Store, that's the 31st. I've no idea how these guys did it.

Then again, my mate advance ordered Fantasy 8th edition to his house, and got it a full week before anyone else... So I guess GW just likes to be super-sure that advance orders are received by the release date.


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## Frank Fugger

Suppose it'd be too much to hope the early shipping means the FAQ will be coming out early too? It definitely needs one x-3


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## sybarite

coke123 said:


> :rofl: Yeah, good luck with that, buddy.


can l sacrifice Matt Ward to appease the post gods?

joking aside if you ask it to get ship to your house it comes in 1 -2 weeks early. l have no idea how or why that is.


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## Kettu

hungryugolino said:


> Not true. Gaunt has visions of a Sister of Battle, they're said to play roles in the Crusade, and the "Sabbat-pattern" helmet is canon.


Where? Which book? Becuse I certainly haven't seen it yet.
And Sabbat pattern helm doesn't mean they appear, just means it has the same name.


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## MichaelCarmine

Kettu said:


> Where? Which book? Becuse I certainly haven't seen it yet.
> And Sabbat pattern helm doesn't mean they appear, just means it has the same name.


Straight Silver
EDIT: to mention the fact, that a living saint appears in Sabbat Martyr


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## mahavira

Kettu said:


> Where? Which book? Becuse I certainly haven't seen it yet.
> And Sabbat pattern helm doesn't mean they appear, just means it has the same name.


They're referred to in passing as part of the original Saint Sabbat's war host in Sabbat Martyr, the last book of "The Saint" sequence. They even go so far as to mention that it was the order which later became the order of our martyred lady (for a while I was confused and thought that the martyred lady referred to Saint Sabbat), so the original Sabbat Crusade must have been shortly after the end of the Age of Apostacy. They never actually appear as characters (unless you count a bona fide living saint in power armor). Couldn't pin down the visions (and I suspect they were of Saint Sabbat herself) - the Saint omnibus is about a thousand pages and it's been a while. And the Sabbat pattern helm was probably created because of the Sabbat crusade books rather than the reverse - that point I'll give you.

In any event, I never intended to say he HAD written about battle sisters, just that as a fairly good writer (excellent by the standard of gaming novels) who does not feel the need to channel Richard Dawkins in his writing, he is capable of doing a good job of it if he ever cared to or was asked to (as opposed to Swallow, who can't, and Mitchell, who won't).


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## coke123

sybarite said:


> can l sacrifice Matt Ward to appease the post gods?
> 
> joking aside if you ask it to get ship to your house it comes in 1 -2 weeks early. l have no idea how or why that is.


I don't know about sacrificing Matty-boy- when all is said and done, he does write good rules *ignores certain aspects of 8th edition*. I will concede that he probably shouldn't be allowed near the fluff though.

I am aware that ordering to your house get it delivered early, I was simply making a comment on the polished turd that is Australia Post.


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## Judas Masias

Hey guys i recently posted up pics of all of the parts off sprue of the GK terminators on this page http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84311&page=18. Mad Cow if you want to could you transfer that post here for all to see? It's 4 posts down.

Copied the post here but it ends up by time and date it was posted so ended up 5 pages back. Have to do it this way.
Ok guys i found something really nice here. This guy was took his time and broke down all the parts from the Grey Knights Terminator sprues so that you can see every little detail. So without ferther delay here they are. Enjoy.









Top Row: Terminator Helmets (5), Exposed Heads (2), Bottom Row: Paladin Terminator Helmets (5)









Torso fronts (5) and backs (5)









Arms (14), Lower right corner: heavy weapon arm (1)









Shoulder Pads (12)









Legs (5)









Halberds (5), tilt shields (20)









Apothecary conversion bits (1 set), swords (5), staff (1)








Falchions (10), hammer (1)









Storm bolters (5), Psilencer (1), Psycannon (1), Incinerator (1)









Purity seals (11), reliquaries (4), hands (7), tabard (1), severed bloodletter head (1), servo-skull (1), various belt attachments (7), books (7), daemon skull (1), banner top/reliquary (1)









Standard (1)


Full cerdit goes to That Guy James for all his hard work clipping out all those bits for us to enjoy. Here is the link:http://thatguyjames.net/?p=943:goodpost::yahoo:


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## Mathai

Well....THAT sure helped to screw up my plans of not getting excited about the new stuff too soon. x.x Heh heh, I love how many extra bits there are, I just hope I can find some proper inspiration for them. =)


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## Irbian

For my joy, is not the only unbox he did

Dreadknight
http://thatguyjames.net/?p=965

PA GK
http://thatguyjames.net/?p=924


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## starfyreXXX

are the hands too small to magnetize so you can mix/match weapons whenever you play?

Sanjay


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## coke123

you mean on termies, PAGK, or dreadknights?

On your basic infantry, there isn't really anywhere to put a magnet, although a pin would fit. On the dreadknight, there's no real need- the hands sort of plug into the arm. If you just ensure a tight fit via greenstuff, the model is pretty much plug-and-play, with its CC weapons anyway. The ranged weapons could possibly be magnetised, although again I think they should probably be pinned on so it doesn't look as odd when you play without ranged weapons.


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## starfyreXXX

I meant termies/PA GK...i was thinking of pins sticking out as well.

I guess i'll just do that and hope the weapons don't keep falling off.

Sanjay


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## gally912

Winterous said:


> ...*facepalm*
> They work with aliens because they only care about the threat of Chaos; they are enlightened enough to know that working with xenos can be extremely beneficial.
> 
> More importantly, the Grey Knights AREN'T fielding aliens, it IS the Inquisitors who've requisitioned their abilities, the GK just happen to be there too.


There's some things that are just too ingrained (in my own view) of the 40k lore for it to make sense. In one of the most xenophobic societies ever concieved, you mean to tell me that the chapter most dedicated and faithful to the Emperor and his ideals just happens to routinely ignore the "Purge the alien" bit? Is it not heresy (and by extension, chaotic) to consort with xenos? I call shenanigans. 

How easy is it to have the Joke-a-roo ruleset work as a count-as tech-priest? Now why not just do that from the start? To sell some goofy looking models, no doubt: If it was a tech priest, people could use the ones they already own.


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## Frank Fugger

Nice kits. The NDK looks like a gold-mine for bitz, although lack of a Heavy Incinerator is a bit grim. Still, it gives you something to do with your LRC's spare Flamestorm Cannons I suppose 

I like the Strike Squad too. Sergeant's all like, >:-o


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## jimbo1701

Frank Fugger said:


> Nice kits. The NDK looks like a gold-mine for bitz, although lack of a Heavy Incinerator is a bit grim. Still, it gives you something to do with your LRC's spare Flamestorm Cannons I suppose


Eh? The heavy incinerator is on the NDK sprue.

Question for those privy to the dex - as the dreadnought weapons are identical to those of regular SM, do they have access to heavy flamers in place of storm bolters? (i.e the underslung versions not the TL version) 

Hope so, as with the psyflame upgrade it would essentially make them an incinerator which means my FW dread wouldn't have a redundant weapon option on it. I know the leak didn't have them as an option but did have psyflame and the TL arm as options. 

Cheers


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## RedemptionNL

jimbo1701 said:


> Eh? The heavy incinerator is on the NDK sprue.


Aye, there's only enough bodies to make two of the three guns, but I guess you could look into swapping the gun barrels.



> Question for those privy to the dex - as the dreadnought weapons are identical to those of regular SM, do they have access to heavy flamers in place of storm bolters? (i.e the underslung versions not the TL version)
> 
> Hope so, as with the psyflame upgrade it would essentially make them an incinerator which means my FW dread wouldn't have a redundant weapon option on it. I know the leak didn't have them as an option but did have psyflame and the TL arm as options.


Aye, they have access to both the underslung heavy flamer as the TL heavy flamer arm.


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## jimbo1701

RedemptionNL said:


> Aye, there's only enough bodies to make two of the three guns, but I guess you could look into swapping the gun barrels.


Cool, I'd better get some more magnets ordered then!!



> Aye, they have access to both the underslung heavy flamer as the TL heavy flamer arm.


Great news, I thought it must have been an oversight. I'm thinking venerable dread with assault cannon, heavy flamer + psyflame/bolts in a stormraven + 2xTL autocannon with psybolts in the backfield would be a good use of my 2 dreads.


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## MadCowCrazy

starfyreXXX said:


> are the hands too small to magnetize so you can mix/match weapons whenever you play?
> 
> Sanjay


NOTHING IS TOO SMALL TO MAGNETIZE 
You can get 1mm magnets but 2mm or 3mm will probably be perfect for it.
I know I will be magnetizing eventhough I'm getting 8boxes of PA and TA GKs.



jimbo1701 said:


> Eh? The heavy incinerator is on the NDK sprue.
> 
> Question for those privy to the dex - as the dreadnought weapons are identical to those of regular SM, do they have access to heavy flamers in place of storm bolters? (i.e the underslung versions not the TL version)
> 
> Hope so, as with the psyflame upgrade it would essentially make them an incinerator which means my FW dread wouldn't have a redundant weapon option on it. I know the leak didn't have them as an option but did have psyflame and the TL arm as options.
> 
> Cheers


The Wargear entry says only says it comes with Two Nemesis Doomfists.
Wargear section say a NDF follows the rules for Dreadnought CCW.
Points cost section mentions nowhere that you can change any storm bolters or anything like that. All you can change are the doomfists to hammer or greatsword.

I think GW screwed up again.
On page 4 in the latest WD it says "A Dreadknight has doomfists (with built-in stormbolters) as standard.

In the BRB on DCCW you can read : A DCCW is a power weapon and doubles the walkers S in CC. If the WALKER suffers a weapon destroyed result and the player chooses the close combat weapon the WALKER loses the bonuses conferred by the DCCW and any other weapon built into the same arm.
If the WALKER is armed with 2 or more CCW it gains 1 bonus attack for each additional weapon over the first, if DCCW is lost you lose 1 bonus attack per arm lost.

So where we have a complete mess of rules and fucking up eachother....sigh....GW and their quality assurance.....

So here are the problems
1. No where but in the WD does it say it has storm bolters, I'm sure some people will argue that because it says so it must have them. So you could potentially get 2x twin linked storm bolters + whatever other ranged weapons you put on it.
As I see it GW will have to FAQ this and they will most likely state that it was a mistake in the WD. or that since Dreadnoughts come with SB the DK does too.

2. The weapon follows the rules for DreadNOUGHT close combat weapons, the DK is a Monstrous Creature. So does it get the S bonus? Does it actually have S10 permanently because since it's a MC it can't lose weapons. If so why didn't they just put S10 in it's profile?

3. If it does indeed get S10 from the DCCW why would you want to take a Greatsword since those would bring you down to S6?
Greatsword is reroll hit, wound and vehicle pen.
Daemonhammer is a Thunder hammer so it's still S10 if you use it.

4. How many attacks does the DK have? Profile says 3, DCCW rules say you get 1 extra per DCCW you have so this should bring it up to 4 right? If you exchange any of your Doom Fists (sounds like something MeFistOn would do to you) you lose 1 attack but gain the rules of that weapon. Or do you still have 4 attacks because you technically have 2 CCW?
BRB says that if you have a normal and special weapon you get the +1 attack. Would a DCCW count as a normal weapon as that's what it comes with? or would it fall under the 2 different special weapons rule meaning you dont get an extra attack?



RedemptionNL said:


> Aye, they have access to both the underslung heavy flamer as the TL heavy flamer arm.


I dont have that in my wargear section, the dreadnoughts have access to it but I cant see anything about the DK having it. Then again I'm missing everything under the doomfist section and the leak doesn't look any different.

Edit, just realised he was asking about the dreadnought and not the dread knight... duh so ignore the parts about the flamer thing. Thought he ment the DK since the WD says it comes with storm bolters yet the codex does not and I mixed it all up...

The wargear for the Dreadnought says this : Nemesis Doomfist with built-in storm bolter. Does this mean the DK get's it as well or does it just have normal DF without the SB?


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## starfyreXXX

Madcow - hehe

the order I'm doing (not from GW as they r 2 costly):

Codex	1
GK PA	6
GK TA	6
Stern	1
Lord Draigo 1
Metal BC	1
DreadKnights 2
Crowe	1

and got FW GK mark IV dread on the way, and storm raven and a landraider at home already 

sadly, with all commissions and ebay sales, i'll prob never have time to actually work on my GKs until the next armybook  hehe

Sanjay


----------



## Frank Fugger

jimbo1701 said:


> Eh? The heavy incinerator is on the NDK sprue


Where? I didn't see one.


----------



## OpTi

Frank Fugger said:


> Where? I didn't see one.


Ranged weapon pic, top right is the barrel for heavy incin


----------



## LukeValantine

Going to steal me some of them loyalist knight helmets.....yah.


----------



## Irbian

How many GK will you squeeze from each box? I´m going for ten. 

I will quote myself from other forum with some info that could help:


> We could try to make a compilation of parts. Here are my two cents:
> 
> Full body:
> http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_242&products_id=5018
> http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Se...name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=mk+III (the backpacks could be used as teleporters, and the armour could be adorned)
> 
> Heads:
> http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_27_58&products_id=1504
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_39&products_id=336
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_39&products_id=337
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_38_106&products_id=406
> 
> Body:
> http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_27_58&products_id=558
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=515
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_38_106&products_id=401
> 
> Arms:
> http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_27_58&products_id=395
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_381_383&products_id=5853
> 
> Legs:
> http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_27_58&products_id=370
> 
> Bling:
> http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamm...TCHED-BRASS-INQUISITION-AND-GREY-KNIGHTS.html
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_38_104&products_id=382
> http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_38_106&products_id=414


----------



## Winterous

Irbian said:


> How many GK will you squeeze from each box? I´m going for ten.
> 
> I will quote myself from other forum with some info that could help:


NONE of those links work :laugh:
There's 8 Storm Bolter arms, and only 7 heads (although bare heads could be taken from other kits), so theoretically you could get 8, or 9-10 with heavy weapons, from a single box.
But half of them would look stupid, not having the proper torsos


----------



## Frank Fugger

OpTi said:


> Ranged weapon pic, top right is the barrel for heavy incin


I see it now. Will need to find something else to do with my spare Flamestorms then, lol.


----------



## starfyreXXX

ebay has lots of good bits sales along with several sitesthat sell them.

I plan, for a GK librarian, to attempt something like this via press molds:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/258628

and for paladins, soemthing like: 

http://www.coolminiornot.com/114135

i already got abunch of those eldar exarch wings for the head backings  

I need to get some regular terminators though for the legs since the GK leg guards' detail would be covered by the green stuff patterns anyways...

Not sure what to do for the chest though. 

Sanjay


----------



## Irbian

Fixed the links thanks winterous

About the torsos, there are torsos that could mix well with the rest of the bitzs


----------



## Mathai

I think the main reason for the Greatsword over a regular Doomfist would be for anti infantry purposes. At S7 (+1 for Hammerhand) You are wounding most everything in the game on a 2+ still. With the only things messing with your mojo being misses when rolling to hit and the odd 1 in wounding, the Greatsword looks to me to be the best at killing as many things as possible per round. Even more so if the Dreadnought Close Combat weapon adds an additional attack. And at the same time, 7 +2d6 for armor penetration remains a viable option to take over the S10 options still as you get to reroll that as well.


The thing I want to know more than anything is if the thing can perform its 30 inch Shunt as a scout move. 85% of me says its a yes, but there is that gnawing doubt at the back of my head that syas people are gonna be arguing that to the day its FAQ'ed


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Mathai said:


> The thing I want to know more than anything is if the thing can perform its 30 inch Shunt as a scout move. 85% of me says its a yes, but there is that gnawing doubt at the back of my head that syas people are gonna be arguing that to the day its FAQ'ed


This is something GW will have to FAQ and the most likely answer is yes as skimmers can turbo boost during the scout move so why should you not be allowed to shunt.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> 2. The weapon follows the rules for DreadNOUGHT close combat weapons, the DK is a Monstrous Creature. So does it get the S bonus? Does it actually have S10 permanently because since it's a MC it can't lose weapons. If so why didn't they just put S10 in it's profile?


They didn't put S10 on their profile because that would be crazy good combined with a Greatsword. wounding everything in existence on a rerollable 2+, rerolling missed hits, and glancing (penetrating on a 5+) land raiders on a rerollable 4+ on 2d6 pen is crazy.


----------



## sybarite

well l came in to say the Post god's be praise l got my book. 
as with the DK l agree with coke also it would make the hammer useless in every way.


----------



## Brovius

Frank Fugger said:


> I see it now. Will need to find something else to do with my spare Flamestorms then, lol.


Greeenstuff in the holes, trm off the lower barrell, greenstuff in that hole also, and voila! You now have a mini-psycannon!

Well, it's what I did to make my TL Psycannons for my GKLRR. Thinking of getting some more to do the same upgrade for my Thunderhawk


----------



## coke123

sybarite said:


> well l came in to say the Post god's be praise l got my book.
> as with the DK l agree with coke also it would make the hammer useless in every way.


Well I'll be damned, I guess I owe Australia Post an apology then... It seems they're not _completely_ useless.


----------



## Mathai

OK another thought. If you give a squad the Scout rule via a grandmaster, does that extend to its dedicated transport? If this were Eldar Striking Scorpions, the answer is yes...But the one thing I've always known about the Eldar is that they are king at bending the rules.


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> OK another thought. If you give a squad the Scout rule via a grandmaster, does that extend to its dedicated transport? If this were Eldar Striking Scorpions, the answer is yes...But the one thing I've always known about the Eldar is that they are king at bending the rules.


Yes, definitely.
The unit has the rule, therefore any Dedicated transport that they begin the game in also benefits from it.


----------



## dakem_the_great

Scouting Landraiders sound evil - or are Landraiders not dedicated for Termies anymore?


----------



## starfyreXXX

land raiders are not dedicated. they are heavy choices.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

dakem_the_great said:


> Scouting Landraiders sound evil - or are Landraiders not dedicated for Termies anymore?


Problem is they can't scout with units inside of them.
They are heavy support so if you want to put units in them you first have to put them on the table and first turn get inside of them. I guess if you did a scout move with some troops or outflanked with some troops (but then you best hope they arrive on the same side ) it could work.


----------



## coke123

MadCowCrazy said:


> They are heavy support so if you want to put units in them you first have to put them on the table and first turn get inside of them. I guess if you did a scout move with some troops or outflanked with some troops (but then you best hope they arrive on the same side ) it could work.


Qe? Even if they're not dedicated, a unit can start the game inside a non-dedicated transport, IIRC. Although the non-dedicated transport still wouldn't gain scout, seeing as how I'm pretty sure there's a clause which causes dedicateds to gain scout/outflank from their units. Although I could be wrong, and don't have access to the rulebook to doublecheck/reference...


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> Qe? Even if they're not dedicated, a unit can start the game inside a non-dedicated transport, IIRC. Although the non-dedicated transport still wouldn't gain scout, seeing as how I'm pretty sure there's a clause which causes dedicateds to gain scout/outflank from their units. Although I could be wrong, and don't have access to the rulebook to doublecheck/reference...


Madcow was indeed wrong, non-Dedicated transports can begin the game with a unit inside.
Only a Dedicated transport will inherit Scouts from its owner, however.


----------



## RedemptionNL

No, that's correct coke123, a unit with the Scouts USR transfers it to their dedicated transport, so we can make units inside deployed inside a Rhino or Razorback scout.

Vehicles themselves (except Walkers) cannot be given the Scouts USR with Grand Strategy, so you can't get scouting Land Raiders with the GK codex.


----------



## RedemptionNL

One thing I've been wondering about the model:

The torso part seems to have some sort of rack and pinion:








3rd part from the left has the rack, and the top right part seems to have a fitting gear.

Is this just for locking the torso in place, or does the Dreadknight come with kung-fu grip or something?


----------



## Brovius

RedemptionNL said:


> Is this just for locking the torso in place, or does the Dreadknight come with kung-fu grip or something?


You're right! Looks like there's some intentional articulation in the torso!
This could work out interesting... 
I've got 3 ordered, so I have plenty of chances at trial and error


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> Madcow was indeed wrong, non-Dedicated transports can begin the game with a unit inside.
> Only a Dedicated transport will inherit Scouts from its owner, however.


The hell? Have I been boned again when playing games? Could you please tell me what page in the BRB I can see this? This would be huge for me in the way I play the game.

If you rolled high enough to give scout to both the LR and the Unit you want to put inside then I see no problem with them outflanking or doing a scout move.
Then again basing a strategy on a dice roll that fails 33% of the time can be quite risky unless you take 2 GMs in which case you are guaranteed to succeed with this strategy.


----------



## RedemptionNL

MadCowCrazy said:


> The hell? Have I been boned again when playing games? Could you please tell me what page in the BRB I can see this? This would be huge for me in the way I play the game.


Don't know the page number by heart, but the only limitation is that dedicated transports can only have the squad they're dedicated for, plus any additional independent characters, inside when deployed. There's no such limitation for non-dedicated transports. I assume it would be in the Tranports section of the rulebook.



> If you rolled high enough to give scout to both the LR and the Unit you want to put inside then I see no problem with them outflanking or doing a scout move.
> Then again basing a strategy on a dice roll that fails 33% of the time can be quite risky unless you take 2 GMs in which case you are guaranteed to succeed with this strategy.


Again, you can't give Landraiders Scouts, as you aren't allowed to use Grand Strategy on any vehicles except Walkers.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I just looked over the rules on page 66-67 in the BRB which are the Transport rules and what you say is indeed correct about dedicated transports. It does however not say anywhere that a unit can start inside a non dedicated transport, then again it doesn't say anywhere that you cant. So it's one of those scenarios where one could argue that you can do it because it doesn't say you can't. But if you allowed that wouldn't you be forced to allow all other (more often than not cheesy or game breaking) interpretations of the rules?

Doh, need to read the rules better... on Grand Strategy, ah well...

I'm so looking forwards to having 12 Arco flagellants, a library and an Inquisitor in the LR Crusader (I think, the one with 16 slots) and charging into combat with I10, S7 Arcos with 5 attacks on the charge. It's going to be so damn nasty 
I10 from Quicksilver
+1S from Libby spell
+1S from Inquisitor Hammerhand

Wounding most things on 2+ or 3+ with that many attacks is just lol  It's a pretty cheap unit to boot as well.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> I just looked over the rules on page 66-67 in the BRB which are the Transport rules and what you say is indeed correct about dedicated transports. It does however not say anywhere that a unit can start inside a non dedicated transport, then again it doesn't say anywhere that you cant. So it's one of those scenarios where one could argue that you can do it because it doesn't say you can't. But if you allowed that wouldn't you be forced to allow all other (more often than not cheesy or game breaking) interpretations of the rules?


BRB FAQ, page 6, second question.
God fucking damn am I tired.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Winterous said:


> BRB FAQ, page 6, second question.
> God fucking damn am I tired.


Damn Ninja, was reading through the FAQ and found it, was just about to post it 

Q: Can a unit start the game embarked in a non-dedicated
transport vehicle? (p92)
A: Yes, as long as its unit type is allowed to embark onto
that vehicle and it does not exceed the transport capacity.


----------



## Mathai

The way I always figured it was that since you can deploy anywhere within your starting area, and inside that Land Raider is indeed part of the starting area, that its fair game to deploy there as well as anywhere else.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I think the reasoning for the way I was thought was that since you can NOT start the game inside another units Dedicated Transport you should not be allowed to start in a non dedicated transport.

Basically with a dedicated transport you can start the game either inside or next to it but another unit can not start inside it even if the unit that "owns" the transport starts outside it. Of course you can move onto the transport on the first turn and then play as normal. Atleast this is the way I've been thought at the local club, assumed it worked the same way for non dedicated transports.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Heh, that sounds silly. If you couldn't put any units inside non-dedicated transports during deployment, technically you wouldn't have been able to reserve them with passengers inside them either. They would even have to roll seperatly for reserves.

How did you play that then?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Basically if you wanted to use a non dedicated transport you either had it on the board and embarked onto it or had nothing in it for reserves as it was more of a tank than a transport. We pretty much never use LR at our club so it was never really an issue as the only non dedicated transport in the game is pretty much the LR, well until the arrival of the Stormraven.


----------



## RedemptionNL

And Valkyries, Land Speeder Storms, Looted Wagons, Battlewagons and loads of FW/Apocalypse units and such.


----------



## Mathai

I think the Land Raider will see a rise in popularity now that it has much more precious cargo in the form of Paladins. 

And another thought. (I've been playing ideas around alot now that I got ma hands on the 'dex. x.x) Does assigning Grand Master special abilities come before or after you split up a squad into COmbat Squads you all think?


----------



## ibm6789

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440303a&prodId=prod1180006a

Sisters of Battle Hospitaler, not sure if anyone has caught this yet. 

Is this an old model that was brought back? Or a new one released by accident? Either way she looks pretty cool and I will be getting one.... after my other armies are completed-ish....


----------



## RedemptionNL

Mathai said:


> I think the Land Raider will see a rise in popularity now that it has much more precious cargo in the form of Paladins.
> 
> And another thought. (I've been playing ideas around alot now that I got ma hands on the 'dex. x.x) Does assigning Grand Master special abilities come before or after you split up a squad into COmbat Squads you all think?


Grand Strategy specifically says it is done before deployment. As Combat Squadding is done during deployment, the rule you granted to the unit will count for both Combat Squads.


----------



## Mathai

Thats what I thought. =)

Heh, now I have a reason to Combat Squad out my Terminators I think. Flankable scoring Terminators? Yes please.


----------



## andrewm9

ibm6789 said:


> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440303a&prodId=prod1180006a
> 
> Sisters of Battle Hospitaler, not sure if anyone has caught this yet.
> 
> Is this an old model that was brought back? Or a new one released by accident? Either way she looks pretty cool and I will be getting one.... after my other armies are completed-ish....


Its not new as it was in the Inqusitorial Henchmen 3 pack for WH as well as the WH Inquisitor and retinue boxed set. I note that now it says Sisters of Battle Hospitaler though. I guess thats a prelude to the actual release of a Sisters of Battle codex however far off that may be.


----------



## ibm6789

Oh... so was it one of the models they re-released awhile back when they released the new Grey Knights? 

(I really wish the free downloadable Army Books had pictures of the model ranges.)


----------



## Zenzi

Sneaky change, Probably totally accidental but verrrrry possible a confirmation that the next re-do of the Sisters codex will be the Sisters of Battle codex, Because currently It is called Sister of Battle Hospitaler, but in the very description of it, it says Witch Hunter Hospitaler, which atleast to me means They goofed and gave confirmation that it will end up begin sisters of battle, Also Makes me wonder if they might be the next 40k Codex.


----------



## RedemptionNL

Zenzi said:


> Sneaky change, Probably totally accidental but verrrrry possible a confirmation that the next re-do of the Sisters codex will be the Sisters of Battle codex, Because currently It is called Sister of Battle Hospitaler, but in the very description of it, it says Witch Hunter Hospitaler, which atleast to me means They goofed and gave confirmation that it will end up begin sisters of battle, Also Makes me wonder if they might be the next 40k Codex.


I wouldn't read too much in to it. It was probably just split as the Ordos Hereticus Inquisitors are now in the Grey Knights codex. The Canoness was already called a 'Sisters of Battle Canones', so I doubt the new designation means much.

As for the next codex, it's pretty certain it's either going to be Necron or Tau somewhere later this year; with April going to be GK, June the Dark Eldar second wave, and the summer probably being reserved for the 'summer of fliers' thingy. 

The only consitent rumour about Sisters I've seen floating around are that they were having trouble converting the models to plastic, but learned a lot by making the Dark Eldar models. Then there's the less consistent rumour about them getting a WD/PDF codex like the previous Blood Angels codex.


----------



## Dagmire

Just an FYI, i played the vindi assassin today and poped aLR first shot. Then got killed my living lightning.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Saw my first 2 games today, GK vs Dark Eldar. I guess it was an unfair fight since the DE player tailored his list to beat GKs and the GK player did not know what he was going to fight. It was a pretty interesting fight to watch though the DE player whiped the GKs by his turn 3 (he had first turn). He killed the DK with his first shot from a hex rifle 

Second game was allot more even, they basically just changed side and the GK player changed a few things in his list to better fight DE. Mainly changing psycannons for Incinerators.

Was allot more even but DE won with most models still on the table.

All in all the new GKs have some awesome strengths, the most damage done was when doing the 30" shunt with the DK and infantry with incinerators. Almost clearing out whole squads at a time but getting killed the next turn from the massed shooting of the DE.

Would have been allot more fun if the DE wasn't tailored to kill GKs but that's just the way it is. Might be more games on Friday, will be interesting to see what happens.

The GKs only AV was psycannons and the DK cc attacks while the DE player had 7 or so vehicles on the table that out gunned and out ranged the GK player. First game whole squads were picked off the table per turn because the DE player had Ravagers with those S6 Ap2 guns.


----------



## Winterous

Mathai said:


> Thats what I thought. =)
> 
> Heh, now I have a reason to Combat Squad out my Terminators I think. Flankable scoring Terminators? Yes please.


Can't do that, the FAQs say that any unit which is placed into Reserve is completely unable to Combat Squad; the only exception being Drop Pods.


----------



## Arias

I find it kind of interesting that they took the Gideon Lorr model off the main site but have him pictured in the actual GK codex. Could the model possibly be for the second wave?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Arias said:


> I find it kind of interesting that they took the Gideon Lorr model off the main site but have him pictured in the actual GK codex. Could the model possibly be for the second wave?


I believe they also have him in the latest white dwarf in the sales section.
There are just so many problems with the latest WD about the GK, it's like they had no idea what was true or not about the codex when they made the WD.


----------



## LukeValantine

Could the WD have used a bit more......cow bell? 






If you didn't catch the subtext to the play on words I was suggesting you could have done a better job then the in house team.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just a short message : My 9800 GTX card has started to break down crashing my computer if I start a game and now just by starting the computer. I've uninstalled the display drivers and running it on default which allows me to write this.
I have ordered a 570 GTX card and should receive it next week if I'm lucky.
No idea how old my graphics card is but I'm guessing it's old enough to show it's age.
I know I got it to play Age of Conan but dont know how many years it was since that was released.

So if I dont post anything for a whole it means my computer has completely died.


----------



## Judas Masias

*Discussion: Grey Knight codex review - HQs*

I found this on http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2011/03/discussion-grey-knight-codex-review-hqs.html so all credit goes to him for this.

View attachment 12103

Here's the article of a long review of the Grey Knights codex. I've broken it down so it's easier to digest and will go over each FoC slot seperately and then at the end work out some lists. Here's the HQs not including special characters 

*Grey Knight Grand Master*

This guy is rocking in at 175 points with more or less same stats as a Space Marine Captain except is BS6. Standard wargear you get iron halo which should be noted goes in combo with the including nemesis force sword giving 3+ invulnerable on the Grand Master, who btw comes in terminator armour standard  . He also comes with psyk-out grenades which make Daemons and Psykers being assaulted I1, pretty handy. Hammerhand is the standard psychic power like all Grey Knight units and comes with psychic commuinion which can give you +1 or -1 reserve bonus, this power is cast at the start of the movement turn which makes the Grand Master all most must have in any all deep striking G.K army. It should be noted that this power does stack with other reserve abilities. 

The Grand Master does come with one very cool special rule; grand strategy. At the start of the game you nomintate a unit type i.e infantry and roll a D3 that number of units you have chosen equal to the D3 can have a particular role:

Hammer of Righteousness - Nominated units can re-roll to wound rolls of a 1 through out the game. Not that awesome if you ask me, just re-rolling 1's but it does work in shooting and assault. There is better...

Shield of Blades - Chosen unites get counter attack which can be very handy as Grey Knights have LD9 so should pass a leadership test when using counter attack and all have power weapons, so if anyone does decide to asssault say a normal Grey Knight unit then they will be in for a surprise with those Grey Knights not getting two attacks, add in nemesis halberds and they will be I6 most likely going first giving the charging enemy a battering before they even strike with extra attacks.

Spear of Light - Units selected get the scout special rule which can be handy for any outflanking say with Purgation squads with mass incinerators to get pesky camping units or maybe use for a Interceptor squad who can use there special "shunt" teleport move in the scout phase, though this depends how you view RaW.

Unyielding Anvil - Makes the units claim objectives if they was troops, so you fancy a objective claiming Dreadknight? Sure you do 

The Grand Master has the usual Grey Knight wargear such as incinerator, psycannon the allsorted nemesis weapons and selection of grenades amongst other things. The Grand Master can take a orbital relay which are a choice of different oribial bombardments, however all are either heavy/ordnance which means you cannot move if you want to use these so even if you fancied deep striking and use it you can't as deep striking counts as moving, what a pity.

*Grey Knight Brother Captain*

The Captain is a slightly toned down version of the Grand Master with BS5 instead of BS6 but that's all the difference in stats. The big difference is the Captain doesn't get the grand strategy rule, but does cost 25 points cheaper so you really have to thing do you need/want the Grand Masters funky abilities. More importantly though the Captain has the psychic communion power which plays with reserves something definately required for a deep striking force, plus costs cheaper than the Grand Master.

The Captain has exactly the same wargear choices as the Grand Master except for mastery level 2 which may or may not be a issue depending if you want to use the hammerhand power. I guess it depends when your reserves have arrived. 

*Librarian*

The old favourite Librarian is pretty much the same flavour as other Marine codexes but standard comes with terminator armour and mastery level 2 as a psyker auto making the Librarian a epistolary which costs 150 points which I think is a bargain. 

Librarian has same wargear more or less as the other two HQ choices except has the option of a teleporter homer which is very important in a deep striking Grey Knight army. 

Onto the juicy bit, psychic powers. These you have to pay 5 points each for which isn't too bad.

Dark Excommunication - This power is cast in the assault phase and any daemonic gifts will cease to work. So bye bye Bloodletter hellblades, Slaanesh rending claws, soporific musk my list goes on..

Might of Titan - Used in the assault phase a single friendly unit within 6" or the Librarian and one he is with gets +1 strength and additional D6 for armour penetration. This does stack with hammer hand so multiple S6 attacks on vehicles, like having krak grenades but more attacks and 2D6 armour penetration. Against infantry laying the smack down wounding mostly on a 2+, use this power with nemesis halberds and you will be I6 S6!

Quicksilver - This gives a unit within 6" or the unit the Librarian is with and himself I10, bring it on Keepers of Secrets! 

Sanctuary - Any models within 12" of the Librarian attempting to assault Grey Knights units from the codex treat all terrain as difficult and dangerous. It's also handy to note the keywords are "friendly units from Grey Knights codex" which means this will benefit Inquisition units etc.

The Shrouding - Gives units within 6" the stealth rule, if the unit isn't in cover a 6+ cover save. Power is used in the opponents shooting phase like the shield of sanguinus power of the Blood Angels.

Smite - As per Space Marine codex.

The Summoning - This power can pull a friendly unit from the battlefield and reinsert them within 6" of the Librarian using deep strike rules. Sounds cool and can be useful if the unit has a lot of power i.e Purgation squads, make sure you take a teleporter homer on the Librarian so if you try this trick units won't scatter onto your own Librarian!

Vortex of Doom - As per Space Marine codex.

Warp Rift - This is a psychic shooting attack in the form of a template, the unit must take a initiative test for every model hit, for every test failed a model is removed no armour saves. Auto scores penetrating hit on a vehicle. Handy power, especially against lower initiative models like Imperial Guard for example or slow Daemons i.e Nurgle ones. The auto penetrate a vehicle is nice, get a 5+ or 6+ and that vehicle is done for bye bye Land Raider and Monolith with the right rolls.

*Inquisitors
*
There's a choice of three Inquisitors; Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos. All have the same stats and cost the same points. It's the wargear which slightly seperates these guys.

Wargear is mostly the same though each has a few unique items i.e Malleus gets a nullrod etc. All can be upgraded to level 1 psykers taking hammerhand or psychic communion, very handy if you don't fancy paying 150 points on a Brother-Captain and you still want to play with reserves for say 55 points  . 

If I am reading it right you can only take a unit of henchmen with a Inquisitor, the words say "For each Inquisitor in your army you may include a unit of 3-13 henchmen." Which means no funky monkies without a Inquisitor as a HQ. As a bonus the henchmen don't take a elite slot if you do take them  

Summary

Some interesting choices in the HQ and got plenty of choices. All are pretty decent and cost reasonable points. The wargear options are plentiful and to be honest I don't think any or much of the wargear will be useless or not wanted like you get in some codexes. 

I think the Grand Master does what the Brother-Captain can do expect has the funky grand strategy rule which you need to decide if you need any of those abilities in your army and worth costing a extra 25 points over the Brother-Captain. I would consider the Grand Master carefully and take note of the grand strategy ability and if you need anything from that, if not then a Brother-Captain is the way forward...

The Brother-Captain is a cheaper alternative to the Grand Master and brings more or less the same to the table. More importantly the Brother-Captain will probably be chosen for fluff bunnies to would like their force to be lead by a authority figure. 

The Librarian will probably just as popular in the G.K codex as in other codexes, the psychic hood does really help but it's going to be the range mostly which covers half the width of the table. With all Grey Knights have the aegis special rule all can potentially stop psychic powers, or ones targeted at them to be more specific. What the hood does is stop all psychic powers targeted at the Grey Knights or not. One piece of wargear which is important if the teleporter homer, these aren't common in the codex and a deep striking army will find this very useful, particularly a Librarian using the summoning power.

The Inquisitors are probably the best buy in the codex. They're the cheapest HQ choices of none characters and allow you to take the latest rave; Jokaero Weaponsmith. The best thing about the Inquisitors is they can play with reserve rolls like the Brother-Captain and Grand Master for a third of the points cost. You want cheap reserve bonus rolls these are your guys.

All in all I can see the Grand Master being a popular choice depending on some tactics you have in mind for the grand strategy rule. The Brother-Captain I cannot see being used much, maybe cheaper than the Grand Master but doesn't add anythimore and the real benefit the Captain brings is the reserve roll fun which a Inquisitor can bring for a lot less cheaper. I think the Librarian will be as popular as ever and with the right wargear can even be a bit of a power house in combat.


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## starfyreXXX

Is this correct? (from the next review article on nemesis weapons)

-----------------------------
Nemesis Falchions

+1 attack pretty simple this one. So that will be four attacks on the charge for Grey Knight Terminators and three attacks for the basic Grey Knights, not bad and doesn't cost a huge amount of points. 
--------------------------------------

I thought the falchions grant +1 attacks total (so 3 for terminators and 2 for regular)

Sanjay


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## Katie Drake

starfyreXXX said:


> Is this correct? (from the next review article on nemesis weapons)
> 
> -----------------------------
> Nemesis Falchions
> 
> +1 attack pretty simple this one. So that will be four attacks on the charge for Grey Knight Terminators and three attacks for the basic Grey Knights, not bad and doesn't cost a huge amount of points.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> I thought the falchions grant +1 attacks total (so 3 for terminators and 2 for regular)
> 
> Sanjay


I'm confident that the Falchions are only meant to grant a total of +1 Attack, not +2. Will probably be Errata'd.


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## RedemptionNL

It's an issue some have discussed. The rule for falchions says:
_The wielder of a pair of Nemesis Falchions has +1 attack._

Some say this is in addition to the extra attack you get for wielding two weapons. I guess a FAQ is in order, but it's probably just intended to be only 1 bonus attack.

But the review is full of rules errors so I wouldn't take it as stategy gospel.


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## Arias

It does look like it should only be +1 attack but what is the point in taking the falchions over the halberd, the cost and the bonus certainly don't warrant it. I just don't understand why they would give out a new codex and just throw crap in it that no one is ever going to use. Its the same with the 2++ rods, you might be able to get off a couple of cheap tricks with wound allocation but why waste the points?

I'm a newer player though so what do I know.


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## Irbian

RedemptionNL said:


> It's an issue some have discussed. The rule for falchions says:
> _The wielder of a pair of Nemesis Falchions has +1 attack._
> 
> Some say this is in addition to the extra attack you get for wielding two weapons. I guess a FAQ is in order, but it's probably just intended to be only 1 bonus attack.
> 
> But the review is full of rules errors so I wouldn't take it as stategy gospel.


This is interesting.

About the errata... it says "on charge".


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## MadCowCrazy

From what I can tell Paladins and Troop Terminators are the only units in the dex that can take a Broterhood Banner, if they had that it would be 4 attacks, 5 on the charge unless terminators dont get charge bonuses.


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## RedemptionNL

Irbian said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> About the errata... it says "on charge".


Eh? What errata?



MadCowCrazy said:


> From what I can tell Paladins and Troop Terminators are the only units in the dex that can take a Broterhood Banner, if they had that it would be 4 attacks, 5 on the charge unless terminators dont get charge bonuses.


Ghost Knights can get a Banner too.


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## Irbian

Ok, maybe I´m misanderstood:

This is what they were talking



> Nemesis Falchions
> 
> +1 attack pretty simple this one. So that will be four attacks *on the charge* for Grey Knight Terminators and three attacks for the basic Grey Knights, not bad and doesn't cost a huge amount of points.


Maybe you are talking about other thing, but GKSS + charge + falchion = 3, isnt it?


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## starfyreXXX

Why do they get +1 extra attack on the charge? A rule i missed somewhere? since that example isn't talking about that banner.

What's funny...other armies can only take their chapter banner once. For GK, apparently, each unit where it's allowed, can take it.

Sanjay


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## callred

starfyreXXX said:


> Why do they get +1 extra attack on the charge? A rule i missed somewhere? since that example isn't talking about that banner.
> 
> What's funny...other armies can only take their chapter banner once. For GK, apparently, each unit where it's allowed, can take it.
> 
> Sanjay


its not a chapter banner thats why its a brotherhood banner :grin:


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## RedemptionNL

Irbian said:


> Ok, maybe I´m misanderstood:
> 
> Maybe you are talking about other thing, but GKSS + charge + falchion = 3, isnt it?


Ah, no, I misread. GKSS with falchions would have 3 attacks on the charge and 2 any other assault turn. What I was talking about was that some people are argueing that they would gain an extra attack from both wielding two CC weaponsa and the falchion rule, which would make 4 attacks on the charge for GKSS.

I can see how that argument makes sense, but I doubt that's what intended.


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## Winterous

I'm pretty sure this is where the discussion started.



starfyreXXX said:


> Is this correct? (from the next review article on nemesis weapons)
> 
> -----------------------------
> Nemesis Falchions
> 
> +1 attack pretty simple this one. So that will be four attacks on the charge for Grey Knight Terminators and three attacks for the basic Grey Knights, not bad and doesn't cost a huge amount of points.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> I thought the falchions grant +1 attacks total (so 3 for terminators and 2 for regular)
> 
> Sanjay


They were talking about Terminators with Falchions who were charging, and starfyre just missed the charging bit.


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## Irbian

Winterous said:


> They were talking about Terminators with Falchions who were charging, and starfyre just missed the charging bit.


^This (ten characters)


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## ashikenshin

wouldn't that be:

terminators have 2 basic attack
+1 for wielding two one handed weapons
+1 for them being the special rule for falchions
+1 for charging

so on the charge they get 5 attacks?


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## Winterous

ashikenshin said:


> wouldn't that be:
> 
> terminators have 2 basic attack
> +1 for wielding two one handed weapons
> +1 for them being the special rule for falchions
> +1 for charging
> 
> so on the charge they get 5 attacks?


No, it wouldn't be that, because that's not how the Falchions work.
Falchions do not give you an extra Attack for having 2CCW, is the point.
The 'special rule' of the Falchions is that they grant you an extra Attack, but are a single piece of wargear.


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## Arias

Which again still makes it cheaper to take a banner, you get the same amount of attacks with the falchion on everyone but you don't get the auto pass on force weapons. Still don't see the point in taking the falchions at all with just one attack.

And sorry if I come off as rude, not trying to be, just frustrated with some of the stuff in this dex.


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## boreas

I must say... I like the falchions a lot. Both the look and the fact that no other SM has them. Yet, they are never worth it  I'll still model a few, as I play friendly and WYSIWYG is not mandatory.

Phil


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## Aegir Einarsson

In my opinion is worse LC option, without re-roll to wound... I still love my BT, maby falchions are worth to take just in case wound alocation?


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## ashikenshin

If they don't grant another attack then they are just awful.


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## RedemptionNL

Winterous said:


> No, it wouldn't be that, because that's not how the Falchions work.
> Falchions do not give you an extra Attack for having 2CCW, is the point.
> The 'special rule' of the Falchions is that they grant you an extra Attack, but are a single piece of wargear.


Does it really matter that it's a single piece of wargear? The Assault Terminator entries in the last Blood Angel and Space Marine codex have a single entry in their wargear called 'Lightning Claws', and I doubt anyone would argue those give the extra attack or not. 
And then there's entries in other codex that use the 'a pair of ...' syntax as well, such as the Furioso Dread's Blood Talons upgrade. Those are also very much considered two weapons.

So the real question is, is the extra attack mentioned by the Falchions rule just the extra attack you normally get from wielding two weapons, or is it in addition to it? The rule can easily be interpreted both ways.

Just to note, playing Devil's Advocate here; I'll err on the side of caution and play it as just a single extra attack for wielding a pair myself. At least, unless they FAQ it otherwise.

Edit: here's a thread and poll about the subject on DakkaDakka's rule forum, which shows it's not exactly clear cut.


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## coke123

^Except that the entry for Lightning Claws refers to the single piece of wargear. You then are taking two instances of the same weapon in order to gain +1 attack. With Falchions, the descriptor is applied to the pair as a whole, so they wouldn't count as two different weapons. Therefore, Falchions are stupid.

It's the same as with a Warp Spider Exarch's powerblades. Whilst they are referred to as a pair, they only give the +1 attack that their rules state they give, not +2.


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## RedemptionNL

Let's not repeat the 13 page thread of Dakka here and just agree that it's an unclear written rule that needs a FAQ.  The almost 50/50 poll result should show that much.


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## Mathai

I think the Falchions might be better used on Power Armor Grey Knights than on TErminators, but even then I dont count them out.

For Power armor, who as far as I can tell does not get banners, Falchions are a way to get in more strikes when there is no other way. On Terminators, I would assume that the bonus from both Falchion and Banner stack yes? Well thats alot of pain in my opinion.

Say you are fighting Ork mobs. The biggest threat to GRey Knights as far as I can tell is the mob as they are built to die in large numbers and are 'immune' to force weapons.  Initiative is no worry as you have a higehr base I, Str can use a boost but you sacrifice the initiative, and Invulnerable saves will only come in on a few attacks from the Nob, everythiong else likes your regular save better. So if they are just trying to survive your blows, those extra hits will be a godsend. Especially if you can break through somehow to the Nob for damage allocation.

I think the best place for them is Interceptor squads. Where you have the speed to choose who you are gonna assault, and with the Falchions you have the attacks to make a properly sized dent in their heads.


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## Winterous

Mathai said:


> Say you are fighting Ork mobs. The biggest threat to GRey Knights as far as I can tell is the mob as they are built to die in large numbers and are 'immune' to force weapons.  Initiative is no worry as you have a higehr base I, Str can use a boost but you sacrifice the initiative, and Invulnerable saves will only come in on a few attacks from the Nob, everythiong else likes your regular save better. So if they are just trying to survive your blows, those extra hits will be a godsend. Especially if you can break through somehow to the Nob for damage allocation.
> 
> I think the best place for them is Interceptor squads. Where you have the speed to choose who you are gonna assault, and with the Falchions you have the attacks to make a properly sized dent in their heads.


Well said, old bean!


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## Arias

While I do agree that the Interceptor squads are a good fit the regular Strike Squads are just not worth it, the Purifiers will be cheaper, have additional leadership, and a great psychic power. And if your worried about mobility it will be cheaper to toss the purifiers in a Rhino than give even half of your interceptor squad falchions.

The Purifier is not the only unit though and the other Power Armor squads have there place, I just don't think its in close combat.


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## Winterous

Arias said:


> The Purifier is not the only unit though and the other Power Armor squads have there place, I just don't think its in close combat.


This is a given, really.
Strike Squads are a shooting unit, primarily; they're capable of doing fairly well in melee, but they should avoid it unless they're needed there.
Interceptor Squads are all about striking exactly where you need them, they are suited to either shooting or close combat, because they can choose their targets at will.
Purifiers are the ones who definitely want to be close to the enemy, it's where they excel, it's what they're for.


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## Arias

I was tempted to make a list of Interceptors with Incinerators and Librarian Summoning trickery but again the price on those incinerators is crazy, the Psycannons are half the cost.

I still love the whole concept of the Interceptor Squads and if they FAQ it so the Falchions do have +2 Attacks I will definitely be using them on most of my army. They look great to boot, always like seeing something new.


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## Mathai

My initial thought on a squad makeup would be 10 Purifiers with a Librarian in Storm Raven with a Ven Dread (-4 Leadership bubble, does it also affect the psychic hood contest?) Hammer, Stave, 5 Falchions and 3 Halberds. Between cleansing flame and 9 S5 Halberds strikes on the charge, I would think the rest is only gravy but is still nice to have


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## RedemptionNL

Mathai said:


> -4 Leadership bubble, does it also affect the psychic hood contest?


The Aegis only works for Psychic tests done for abilities targetted specifically at a unit containing The Aegis. As Psychic Hoods aren't a Psychic test, it doesn't work against them.

Also note that the unit must already have The Aegis rule for Reinforced Aegis to improve it, so the Inquisitorial units don't get the benefit.


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## Irbian

The question is... what role has the jum infantry in other armies?


About the purifiers, I prefer them with incinerators, maybe with psyflame. Its free!


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## Arias

Irbian said:


> About the purifiers, I prefer them with incinerators, maybe with psyflame. Its free!


 Gotta love some toasty critters.

I'm curious to see some alternative builds with the Dreadnought, I love the Psyfledread but I think people are going to find other uses that we just aren't seeing yet, especially with that -4 to leadership against enemy psychers and those tasty Assault Cannons with the Psybolt ammo.


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## MadCowCrazy

Here is a question, lets say I take 5 of the Heavy support GKs and have 4 Incinerators on them. They stand next to a building with no windows so there is obviously no line of sight into the enemies inside the building. I assume it would be ok to use Astrail Aim to be able to shoot the enemies inside the building and since Incinerators are template weapons they dont get the 4+ cover the ability grants, right?


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## Winterous

Arias said:


> I'm curious to see some alternative builds with the Dreadnought, I love the Psyfledread but I think people are going to find other uses that we just aren't seeing yet, especially with that -4 to leadership against enemy psychers and those tasty Assault Cannons with the Psybolt ammo.


Fuck that, the Psifleman Dreadnought (awful name, I know) is the way to go!
Something like 135 points for four Twin-Linked S8 Autocannon shots a turn.


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## Coyote77

MadCowCrazy said:


> Here is a question, lets say I take 5 of the Heavy support GKs and have 4 Incinerators on them. They stand next to a building with no windows so there is obviously no line of sight into the enemies inside the building. I assume it would be ok to use Astrail Aim to be able to shoot the enemies inside the building and since Incinerators are template weapons they dont get the 4+ cover the ability grants, right?


Well... I think you find some nice stinky cheese there. Templates (the cone) ignore cover. But one could argue that codex trumps rulebook and until we get ours in that states I can't really tell for sure, a lack of exact wording and all.


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## Winterous

Coyote77 said:


> Well... I think you find some nice stinky cheese there. Templates (the cone) ignore cover. But one could argue that codex trumps rulebook and until we get ours in that states I can't really tell for sure, a lack of exact wording and all.


That wouldn't come into play here, there's no paradox.
Astral Aim says: They have a 4+ Cover save.
Template weapon says: You don't get to take any Cover saves.


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## Mathai

Ah, but what if someone reads it like THIS? =)
Template weapon says: You don't get to take any Cover saves.
Astral Aim says: They have a 4+ Cover save.


Heh heh, to me, Its the cover ignoring factor of flame that wins out. But I do see it as a valid bit of confusion.


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## Coyote77

Mathai said:


> Ah, but what if someone reads it like THIS? =)
> Template weapon says: You don't get to take any Cover saves.
> Astral Aim says: They have a 4+ Cover save.
> 
> 
> Heh heh, to me, Its the cover ignoring factor of flame that wins out. But I do see it as a valid bit of confusion.


Exactly why I said I would need a copy of the Codex in front of me to make a decision.

Another thing is the Vindicare assassin's Turbo Pen round. It simple states 4d6 AP. Not an additional 4d6, just 4d6. So does it work against things like living metal or is it meant as an additional 4d6 to normal str3+1d6 pen for the sniper rifle ? (Scratch that, the example in Errata grants the base 3 for the sniper. )


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## Synack

Coyote77 said:


> Another thing is the Vindicare assassin's Turbo Pen round. It simple states 4d6 AP. Not an additional 4d6, just 4d6. So does it work against things like living metal or is it meant as an additional 4d6 to normal str3+1d6 pen for the sniper rifle ? (Scratch that, the example in Errata grants the base 3 for the sniper. )


If it was an *additional* 4d6, then it would be a total of 5d6, since everyone gets 1d6 penetration as a base. Since it doesn't say additional, it's just S3+4d6 (plus +d3 per 6 rolled).


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## Irbian

Coyote77 said:


> Exactly why I said I would need a copy of the Codex in front of me to make a decision.
> 
> Another thing is the Vindicare assassin's Turbo Pen round. It simple states 4d6 AP. Not an additional 4d6, just 4d6. So does it work against things like living metal or is it meant as an additional 4d6 to normal str3+1d6 pen for the sniper rifle ? (Scratch that, the example in Errata grants the base 3 for the sniper. )





Synack said:


> If it was an *additional* 4d6, then it would be a total of 5d6, since everyone gets 1d6 penetration as a base. Since it doesn't say additional, it's just S3+4d6 (plus +d3 per 6 rolled).


Astral Aim:This power can be used during the Grey Knights Shooting phase. If the psychic test is passed, the unit (and any accompanyng character) can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they do not have line of sight to it or it is outside the distance they can see in a night fight. The target automatically has a 4+ cover save (which cannot be modified by any means) agains this attack. The squad cannot target an enemy unit that is embarked within a transport vehicle.Quoted from the book.

So.... if the inicinerator says "you cant take cover saves against", and the cover save provide is "unmodifiable" you... just dont take it. But yes, it has to be faqed

A turbo-penetrator shot has an armour penetration of 4d6. Quoted from the book.


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## Arias

I'm of the opinion that the Astral Aim power would over right the flamer template still allowing the target to use the cover save, the template always has that property but you are modifying it by casting the power.

And with the turbo-penetrator round I agree, it does give a base 4D6 penetration, its not adding dice its completely changing what the base amount is, instead of one you get four. The living metal rule states that you get no extra dice but this isn't extra, this is a complete change of what you role with the dice. Rending would be adding extra dice and we know you don't get those but thats besides the point, this is another topic that has its own thread.


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## OIIIIIIO

Here is the thing with that though ... Melta bombs have a Str. 8 + 2d6 for pen rolls, that is the only thing that they have for the profile, not even really a melta weapon. On this forum that very question came up and we were told that it only gets 8 + a d6, the "Extra" die is not used. So if the Turbo Penetrator gets its dice then the melta bomb should as well.


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## Mathai

The difference between a melta bomb and a Turbo Penetrator though is its a fixed number plus dice for the melta, while a Turbo Penetrator does not take the weapon's strength value into consideration and is just a pure dice roll situation. They arent being added to anything, they are just there. 

I remember having a very similar problem with the old Vindicare shooting at an Eldar Wave Serpent. Even though I was the Eldar player, I couldnt see how the Vindicare shot could be reduced any since it falls juuuust to the left of mainstream thinking on the case. Therefore while it may sound damn near perfect a case for why it should be reduced by such things, the slight change in wording I think renders it immune to penetration reduction of the normal kind.


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## Winterous

Mathai said:


> The difference between a melta bomb and a Turbo Penetrator though is its a fixed number plus dice for the melta, while a Turbo Penetrator does not take the weapon's strength value into consideration and is just a pure dice roll situation. They arent being added to anything, they are just there.


Nope, Melta bombs don't have the Melta rule, they just have 2D6 penetration, they work against Monoliths just like Monstrous Creatures.


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## Kettu

Ok, question here.
I am seeing rumours of Sisters before Christmas this year with increasing numbers.
The only thing said is 'Sisters here before years end' or words to that effect, the ones I can remember are 'Sisters in time for Christmas', 'Only months to go on Sisters' and 'Sisters up next'.
There is no real point linking to them in question as that is more or less all of what I keep hearing.

I have not heard this said by a single person normally considered reliable nor have any of them made a comment about this.
Does anyone know where this is coming from? Is this valid to any degree?

Last I heard anything is what you have on the front page about they won't even start sculpting miniatures or writing the codex till later this year and they had hair, robe and purity seal troubles which would set them back further.


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## Brovius

I've heard that Necrons were pushed back, and that Tau were next. Can't remember who mentioned it, but apparently Demiurges are in.
Neither this, or the Sisters codex rumors are from anyone of repute from past rumor-mongering, anyway. 

I wouldn't pay too much heed to it until something more solid comes up. GW are sure to keep all details pretty wrapped up, and i'm certain we won't hear anything official until the GK craze has died down.


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## Azezel

Kettu said:


> Last I heard anything is what you have on the front page about they won't even start sculpting miniatures or writing the codex till later this year and they had hair, robe and purity seal troubles which would set them back further.


I'm hearing the same as you, but it's all wishlisting and blind optimism rather than actual rumours.


That said: We beleive the codex is already writen, or mostly written. It was started just after Codex: Grey Knights (within six months).

So far as models go - we can't catagorically state that work hasn't begun - all we know is that work hadn't begun in November last year, and wasn't going to begin for the forseeable future. It may now be underway, but we don't know that, and our best guess is sometime after june this year.

Harry once said that the _typical_ lead-time of a new plastic kit is eighteen months, though that could be as little as twelve if everything goes right.

Bindi said that Sisters would be the last of the prehistoric codices to be updated, and independant rumours support that. My money is still on quarter 4 2012.


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## MadCowCrazy

There are allot of random rumours floating around right now, only thing we can be somewhat certain of is that the next codex will be either Necrons, Sisters or Tau and if released after eachother then probably in that order.

If the rumour that the Sisters codex will be the last codex to get a major overhaul and the last codex before 6ed I would put it as the first codex 2012.

There is a rumour that once the Sisters are done all dexes after that will become smaller projects, if this means PDF dexes or what I have no idea. I would really like to see PDF dexes though with regular updates.


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## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> There is a rumour that once the Sisters are done all dexes after that will become smaller projects, if this means PDF dexes or what I have no idea. I would really like to see PDF dexes though with regular updates.


I imagine it probably means smaller changes between codices.
Fewer new units (requiring new models), fewer model updates (since basically everything you take lots of will have plastics beyond that point), and less total-overhaul style rules updates.
Probably small additions, tweaks to fit new rule sets, balancing, and that's about it.


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## Synack

Stickmonkey over on warseer said that they were having problems with the SoB armour and cloth lining up. The problem was that since they have both power armour and cloth sections, it was hard to create plastic models that you could create different poses with the models.

Later he updated and said he had seen the new models and that they look fantastic. This could mean that they had fixed the problem and could move on to the next phase. What that is or how long it takes from that point is anyones guess.


----------



## bitsandkits

Synack said:


> Stickmonkey over on warseer said that they were having problems with the SoB armour and cloth lining up. The problem was that since they have both power armour and cloth sections, it was hard to create plastic models that you could create different poses with the models.


seems a silly thing to say considering they have overcome that problem with numerous space marines chapters and eldar models.


----------



## Azezel

Synack said:


> Later he updated and said he had seen the new models and that they look fantastic. This could mean that they had fixed the problem and could move on to the next phase. What that is or how long it takes from that point is anyones guess.


No, let's be absolutely clear on this.

What Stickmonkey saw was _one_ sculpt. He saw that in January, and Jes said in November that work on plastic Sisters had not begun and was not about to begin. We may be almost certain that what stickmonkey saw was not a new sister model.

What he saw was almost certainly a concept sculpt, produced sometime in the last six years. Claiming that it is a model is only going to make the picture muddier.

We know that the scuplting department started project: Plastic Battle Sisters before they started sculpting Dark Eldar. They have not begun work on kits, but during that time (Nearly six years) they will certainly have produced a lot of concept art, detail studies and technical demos, both CG and physical.

An artist has an idea - he thinks that veils (or whatever) would look cool, so he knocks out a concept drawing - if that and a few more looks good, a concept sculpt (real, GG or both) may follow.

An artist decides he wants scrollwork on the sisters spaulders. That's a very detailed, intricate thing, so a tech-demo may be required. A peice produced purely to show that sauch a thing can be done.

You see the sort of thing I mean - there could be scads of battle sisters knocking around the studio without there beiong an actual kit anytime soon.

Anyone of these could be what stickmonkey saw. If I had a Warseer account I'd ask him to confirm this, since it crops up so often.

Perhaps someone else could, so we could put this to bed:



Azezel said:


> Stickmonkey, re the Battle sister sculpt you described in Janurary: In your opinion, is it more likely to be part of an actual plastic kit (or directly related to an actual plastic kit, as in a master, or beta for example), or simply a concept sculpt/tech demo/etc?


I think that the answer should curb some of the unwarented optimism we see around these parts.


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## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> Ok, question here.
> I am seeing rumours of Sisters before Christmas this year with increasing numbers.


SOB are a fair way off yet, definately not this year, r&d has barely begun


----------



## Arias

I think regardless of whether its Tau, Necrons, or SoB next they will all be interesting. They all seem like good candidates for some decent changes and cool new models and upgrades, something different I guess.

I also want to out gun IG and blow stuff up with some Tau.


----------



## Arias

Another thing I'm wondering is why Grey Knights still suffer perils of the warp at all, if they have never been corrupted and are so pure why even have the negative effect? I know there are dangers accessing these powers but the Grey Knights have been specifically trained and created for this purpose. There will be plenty of armies able to counter these powers so why have this function, especially when it seems we will be relying on psychic powers for the army to work decently? I can already hear cries of this being cheesy but from everything I see in the dex this wouldn't be too bad, especially if they are going to be just middle of the road like anticipated.

Just curious what other people think.


----------



## Ninja D

Arias said:


> Another thing I'm wondering is why Grey Knights still suffer perils of the warp at all, if they have never been corrupted and are so pure why even have the negative effect? I know there are dangers accessing these powers but the Grey Knights have been specifically trained and created for this purpose. There will be plenty of armies able to counter these powers so why have this function, especially when it seems we will be relying on psychic powers for the army to work decently? I can already hear cries of this being cheesy but from everything I see in the dex this wouldn't be too bad, especially if they are going to be just middle of the road like anticipated.
> 
> Just curious what other people think.


I think it's a matter of game balance. Psykers can really do some awesome things depending on the power and Perils has been the consequence for the risk. As far as the Grey Knights are concerned, they don't turn into some slavering warp beast or get corrupted and turn on their squads (though they can still be fooled by the Changeling...), however in the Grey Knight books, there was at least one instance where a GK terminator damn near killed himself trying to use Holocaust too many times in a short period of time. I saw that as a Perils, and a wound on the terminator.

So look at it as them pushing themselves so far that they wear out or hurt themselves in the process, not getting corrupted, all in the name of victory against their foes. It's already established that they will do pretty much anything to destroy Daemonkind, including sacrificing themselves for the greater good of the Imperium.

By the way, that Holocaust incident in the Grey Knights novel is a perfect example of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule for the GK. The terminator was the Justicar for his squad for all intents and purposes and he's the one who damn near died trying to whip out a second Holocaust on a pack of Daemons, not his squadmates who focused their power into him.


----------



## Mathai

Also, I find that any Perils of the Warp negation by the Imperium codexes might infringe upon some of the unique aspects of other armies such as the Eldar who have Runes of WItnessing and Ghost Helms and auto pass psyker abilities (Warlocks)

Remember that while Grey Knights may be made entirely of psykers of varying ability, the same can be said of all Craftworld Eldar. Their entire race is latently psykers, and all they need to do in order to access that potential is want to become a psyker.

The Imperium, as far as I have ever read, dont have any technologies to regulate the flow of psyker potential beyon on/off switches like a Psychic Hood or those things they use to transport powerful rogue psykers. They dont have the finesse of technology required to regulate the flow of Psyker power near enough to prevent an occurance of a Perils of the Warp.


----------



## Mundungu

If Daemons, a being that lives in the Warp, can Perils then why should a GK be immune? Other than 'ZOMG Space Marine!' that is.


----------



## Winterous

Mundungu said:


> If Daemons, a being that lives in the Warp, can Perils then why should a GK be immune? Other than 'ZOMG Space Marine!' that is.


No Daemons are Psykers any more.

Also Grey Knights SHOULDN'T be immune to Perils; maybe they should have some sort of resistance to it, but that's it.


----------



## Arias

Not being immune is understandable but at least a little more resistance should be warranted. 

Any more than this though seems like wish-listing. Regardless I do think the amount of powers used will come into play negatively, it does seem that these psychic powers do balance out the army in a good way but no where have I seen people factoring in perils into there actual builds, everyone just mentions how there squad will always have hammerhand, purifiers flame, etc. I think its an oversight on most peoples part but something that should definitely not be overlooked

I know it may seem that I have been a little negative about this codex but I really do like it, I am a little dissapointed about losing S6 and this is where it all stems from but I just want to find the flaws so I can weed out the good from the bad. Although I do have a hard on for Draigo which makes no sense...


----------



## Winterous

Arias said:


> Any more than this though seems like wish-listing. Regardless I do think the amount of powers used will come into play negatively, it does seem that these psychic powers do balance out the army in a good way but no where have I seen people factoring in perils into there actual builds, everyone just mentions how there squad will always have hammerhand, purifiers flame, etc. I think its an oversight on most peoples part but something that should definitely not be overlooked


Most of their squads only have Ld9, which gives you a 1/6 chance of failing the Psychic test at any given time.
Then there's Psychic defences, which I'm sure will be FAR more common now, to counter the little bonuses the GK get.


----------



## Arias

I'm not too familiar with a lot of the other codices but I know Eldar and SW have some type of psychic defense. Who else besides Eldar will be the biggest problem?


----------



## OpTi

nids and SM(any) also have psychic defence


----------



## gally912

Most (if not all) librarians come with Hoods. I may end up putting a Librarian in my main list if I see many GK armies start cropping up.


----------



## Winterous

Arias said:


> I'm not too familiar with a lot of the other codices but I know Eldar and SW have some type of psychic defense. Who else besides Eldar will be the biggest problem?


Space Marine Librarians are all equipped with Psychic Hoods. Rune Priests instead of a very similar version, 4+ to negate instead of a Ld+D6 comparison.
Runes of Warding is a big deal (god I hate it).
Tyranids have Shadow in the Warp, very similar in function to Runes of Warding, but only 12" range from Synapse creatures rather than infinite.

Those are just about the only Psychic defences, actually.


----------



## Arias

Those may be the only ones but a majority of the armies we will be facing, at least where I play, are marine or variants of marine armies. I'm not too worried though about losing the psychic test, just not keen on losing bodies as they are expensive.


----------



## Azezel

Are you confused about how iminent an update for the Sisters may be? Are you unsure about what you can do at this point to make absolutely no difference to Games Workshop's schedule? Do you like bitter, sarcastic image manipulations? Will you point and laugh when someone mocks his own community?

Then have I got a .jpg for you. (The current level is 'Low', by the way.)


----------



## Brovius

Winterous said:


> Space Marine Librarians are all equipped with Psychic Hoods. Rune Priests instead of a very similar version, 4+ to negate instead of a Ld+D6 comparison.
> Runes of Warding is a big deal (god I hate it).
> Tyranids have Shadow in the Warp, very similar in function to Runes of Warding, but only 12" range from Synapse creatures rather than infinite.
> 
> Those are just about the only Psychic defences, actually.


I played a 2k point game vs Eldar just last night. He fielded Eldrad, 3 Fire Prisms, 2 units of 10 Pathfinders, two mid-sized Warp Spider units and some Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent. 

My answer to Eldrad was to soak him with Mindstrike missiles from one of my Storm Ravens. He didn't die (damn Ghosthelm...), but I assaulted Eldrad and the pathfinders he was attached to with a 5-man GKSS squad who I gave Scouts to from the Grand Strategy. Somehow managed to kill enough pathfinders to make Eldrad run away, and removed him in the sweeping advance 

Think tactically enough and you can achieve anything

EDIT: spelling


----------



## Winterous

Brovius said:


> I played a 2k point game vs Eldar just last night. He fielded Eldrad, 3 Fire Prisms, 2 units of 10 Pathfinders, two mid-sized Warp Spider units and some Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent.
> 
> My answer to Eldrad was to soak him with Mindstrike missiles from one of my Storm Ravens. He didn't die (damn Ghosthelm...), but I assaulted Eldrad and the pathfinders he was attached to with a 5-man GKSS squad who I gave Scouts to from the Grand Strategy. Somehow managed to kill enough pathfinders to make Eldrad run away, and removed him in the sweeping advance
> 
> Think tactically enough and you can achieve anything
> 
> EDIT: spelling


Vindicare Assassins work WONDERS against Farseers.
Why? Well their Invulnerable saves are granted by wargear.
Sooooo.... SHIELD BREAKER!


----------



## Arias

Silly space elves.

I'm curious of what people are thinking about the Stormraven and Terminators. Never had any experience with the Stormraven, it does seem expensive but with the right upgrades might be worth it. The Terminators on the other hand just seem meh, especially with the PAGK as good as they are. For the same basic price you can get 5 extra wounds and 10 extra Stormbolter shots. No invul or 2+ but with the extra wounds it seems like it would even out.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

Arias said:


> Silly space elves.
> 
> I'm curious of what people are thinking about the Stormraven and Terminators. Never had any experience with the Stormraven, it does seem expensive but with the right upgrades might be worth it. The Terminators on the other hand just seem meh, especially with the PAGK as good as they are. For the same basic price you can get 5 extra wounds and 10 extra Stormbolter shots. No invul or 2+ but with the extra wounds it seems like it would even out.


I agree, when the codex launches and we start seeing more army lists in the forums, one set up that will be widely used is large groups of PAGK with Psybolt Ammo. The effective 30" firing range of the Grey Knights is reason enough to field big groups on foot. Likewise, the 20 S5 shots you'll be getting is just too good to pass up.

On a different topic: One thing I would have liked to have seen in the new codex is an HQ unit that could take the Personal Teleporters, especially the Champion. It would have been akin to taking a SM Chaplin with Jump Pack, and for 20 or so points, would have been worth taking for Interceptor based armies.


----------



## Arias

abitterbuffalo said:


> On a different topic: One thing I would have liked to have seen in the new codex is an HQ unit that could take the Personal Teleporters, especially the Champion. It would have been akin to taking a SM Chaplin with Jump Pack, and for 20 or so points, would have been worth taking for Interceptor based armies.


 I agree, that would have been amazing, and something they could have done to make Purgation squads/Interceptor squads troop choices. I would love to see my opponents face when first turn I Deepstrike and shunt all of my forces and HQ into there deployment zone. Might be a bit powerful though having 12+ squads after Combat Tactics shunting across the board on top of the Grand Strategy. Purgation squads wouldn't be as bad as the Interceptors but don't know if that would be doable, might be a nice gun line though.


----------



## Mathai

I deffinitely think Power Armor Grey Knights are the way to go in a Storm Raven. The main reason I am looking forward to it is because it has those two extra slots in it. Meaning I can stick a Librarian with all its goodness in there, or a Grand Master with lovely Rad Grenades, or a couple other options that make for alot of pain when paired with a full squad.


----------



## Judas Masias

I was wondering what do Servo Skulls do? I am asking this because i'm seeing them alot in lists that have Librarians in them.


----------



## Necrosis

Judas Masias said:


> I was wondering what do Servo Skulls do? I am asking this because i'm seeing them alot in lists that have Librarians in them.


Servo Skulls
Deploy each Servo Skull before deploying the army. Skulls can't be deployed inside the enemy deployment zone.
Enemy units may not Infiltrate or Scout within 12" of a Skull.
Friendly units scatter D6" less when Deep Striking within 12" of a Skull.
Blast weapons that target an enemy unit within 12" of a skull scatter D6" less.
A Servo Skull can not be shot or assaulted, but if an enemy unit moves within 6" of them, it will retreat and is removed from the battlefield.
It can not move and is just a marker, no kill points are awarded for removing it from play.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Here is the rule for them.
Servo-skulls are treated as counters, rather than units for all intents and purposes. They are placed on the battlefield after deployment areas have been determined, but before any forces are deployed. Each servo-skull can be placed anywhere on the battlefield OUTSIDE THE ENEMY'S DEPLOYMENT ZONE. Once deployed, Servo-skulls do not move.

Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a servo-skull. Similarly, enemy scouts cannot use their pre-game move to approach to within 12" of one. A friendly unit arriving by Deep Strike rolls one D6 less for scatter if it aims to arrive within 12" of a Servo-skull. Likewise, friendly blast templates placed within 12" of a Servo-skull roll one D6 less for scatter.

Servo-skulls are considered too small and agile to be attacked and cannot be harmed in any way. However, should an enemy unit move to within 6" then the servo-skull will self-destruct or flee the battlefield - remove it from play.


----------



## Brovius

Winterous said:


> Vindicare Assassins work WONDERS against Farseers.
> Why? Well their Invulnerable saves are granted by wargear.
> Sooooo.... SHIELD BREAKER!


They do nothing against Ghosthelms, it's wargear that negates PotW on a 3+, not an invulnerable save. Going by RAW, Eldar can then roll their invuln as normal if the Ghosthelm fails.

Vindicare+SR would make Seer Council lists crumble, though. The Eldar player in our Tale of x Gamers realises this, so he's looking to avoid fielding them.


----------



## Winterous

Brovius said:


> They do nothing against Ghosthelms, it's wargear that negates PotW on a 3+, not an invulnerable save. Going by RAW, Eldar can then roll their invuln as normal if the Ghosthelm fails.
> 
> Vindicare+SR would make Seer Council lists crumble, though. The Eldar player in our Tale of x Gamers realises this, so he's looking to avoid fielding them.


...What?
I never said they affect Ghosthelms.
Shield Breaker rounds remove any Invulnerable saves granted by a piece of wargear, meaning their Rune armour stops working, meaning you can blow their unit to hell and the Farseer won't have any save other than a Cover.


----------



## Irbian

In a couple hours I´ll have access to a codex copy. Feel free to ask questions (probably we only have fluff questions left)


----------



## Arias

I have the codex as well but to be honest it kinda looks like everything has been leaked. Regardless, if anyone has any questions about the codex I will be happy to answer them.


----------



## sybarite

Winterous said:


> Vindicare Assassins work WONDERS against Farseers.
> Why? Well their Invulnerable saves are granted by wargear.
> Sooooo.... SHIELD BREAKER!


l have used him 3 times now and to be honest l only use him for ati tank. As he is one of the good few ati tank we have. Plus the whole blow up a LR is always funny.


----------



## Necrosis

sybarite said:


> l have used him 3 times now and to be honest l only use him for ati tank. As he is one of the good few ati tank we have. Plus the whole blow up a LR is always funny.


Why stop with a land raider? How about a baneblade or titan?


----------



## hungryugolino

What's the worst bit of fluff?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

hungryugolino said:


> What's the worst bit of fluff?


The parts written by Matt Ward.... oh wait....


----------



## Arias

MadCowCrazy said:


> The parts written by Matt Ward.... oh wait....


 Not all of it is that bad but there are some things that just make you question how they run things or if they even look over some of the drivel that's written.

Draigo's fluff doesn't even bother me, its the whole Grey Knights wielding demon swords thing that does. Or maybe its just that Crowe is complete crap in general and just makes me hate the fluff more.


----------



## LukeValantine

Necrosis said:


> Why stop with a land raider? How about a baneblade or titan?


Because titans can have up to 6+ void shields. 
However I think spamming 7-8 of them in appocalypse will lead to many a GK player leaving with a broken nose.


----------



## Vaz

Grand Masters Mind Controlling their Subordinates has to be the most fucked up part, or that the hidden secrets of Chaos hidden in the Sanctum Sanctorum are somehow more likely to corrupt a Grey Knight to Chaos than the full power of Chaos God, Personal Teleporters are suddenly too bulky to be fitted on armour that in the fluff is capable of being stood on by a Titan's foot and still work, the ability for Grey Knight's Purgation Squads to bend bullets and energy beams, each Paladin must hunt down and banish each and every one of the 666 most powerful daemons to ever exist (so each one must kill a Daemon Primarch - a task that, strangely even Draigo has not done), Purifiers only allow the completely incorruptible into their ranks (meaning the Grand Masters themselves are corruptible)...


----------



## genesis80

LukeValantine said:


> Because titans can have up to 6+ void shields.
> However I think spamming 7-8 of them in appocalypse will lead to many a GK player leaving with a broken nose.


On that note, is it "permissible" to field an entire army just containing vindi's in apoc games?


----------



## MadCowCrazy

genesis80 said:


> On that note, is it "permissible" to field an entire army just containing vindi's in apoc games?


Anything goes in Apocalypse, but if you want to field something that would be considered "legal" there is a formation of 6 Vindicators in one group.
Not sure how valid those formations are now though since they were made for the Daemonhunters codex.

Similar to the Exorcist "Chorus of Faith" formation where you can have 3-5 Exorcists in 1 formation, instead of each shooting 1D6 missiles each can now fire 2D6 (once per game)...


----------



## Akhara'Keth

hungryugolino said:


> What's the worst bit of fluff?


I personaly hate the part about Draigo after he gets pulled in the Warp. I mean WTF???? The guy basically lives in the Warp and kills daemons? That sucks...

And also the stuff about Justicar Thawn. I mean, the guy is basically immortal! Gets killed all the time and then TADAAA! Playing Jesus and coming back to life....


----------



## coke123

Vaz said:


> each Paladin must hunt down and banish each and every one of the 666 most powerful daemons to ever exist (so each one must kill a Daemon Primarch - a task that, strangely even Draigo has not done),


They only have to banish *one* of the 666 daemons. They've got seven other tasks to complete on top of banishing their one daemon. They don't have to run around for a zillion years banishing. And I believe they only have to banish one of the most powerful greater daemons to have entered realspace- meaning a daemon primarch would be safe from them (but not draigo, I guess) so long as he stays in the warp.


----------



## Judas Masias

Thanks guys for info on servoskulls.


----------



## Tuatara

Akhara'Keth said:


> I personaly hate the part about Draigo after he gets pulled in the Warp. I mean WTF???? The guy basically lives in the Warp and kills daemons? That sucks...


Well, probably sucks to be him, but in a universe where there are space elfs and space vikings, orcs and demons, I'm not too sure it's too outrageous. 


The one thing that really pleases me is the fact that it can still be a very elite force. Each of your units are tough, but they are expensive. The idea of "You take the thousand on the right and I'll take the thousand on the left" is pretty cool. But it is also great that you can change gear and do a horde army without having to go out and start a whole new army. Technical details about the fluff really shouldn't detract from enjoying a game with your buddies.


----------



## genesis80

Where do daemons go when Draigo kills them in the WARP? I only know when u kill those dudes in realspace they go back into the warp to brood (i mean regain strength)
Also, wouldent Draigo have gotten Khorne a lil pissed off by now with all his antics? Im suprised the blood god hasnt whacked him yet.


----------



## Irbian

> Grand Masters Mind Controlling their Subordinates has to be the most fucked up part


It´s only a suposition



> , or that the hidden secrets of Chaos hidden in the Sanctum Sanctorum are somehow more likely to corrupt a Grey Knight to Chaos than the full power of Chaos God


Mpf, yeah, this bother me too

And the part where they kill sisters to make a protection with their blood because if a innocent sacrifice. NOT because they kill sisters, NOT because the innocent blood of sisters helps protect them from corruption, BUT because they can be corrupted by the blood tide.

By the way, silver skulls and exorcists seems to inform GK if one of their people is interesting to be a GK


----------



## Winterous

genesis80 said:


> Where do daemons go when Draigo kills them in the WARP? I only know when u kill those dudes in realspace they go back into the warp to brood (i mean regain strength)
> Also, wouldent Draigo have gotten Khorne a lil pissed off by now with all his antics? Im suprised the blood god hasnt whacked him yet.


Well I imagine their Warp presence would be torn apart and scattered, much like when you eviscerate a person and their body parts lie around the place.
The Warp is rather oceanic in substance, it's a constant flow of energies, and when a Daemon is destroyed in the Warp their 'body' is just reverted back to energy flow, or whatever it is. That's my guess, at least.


----------



## coke123

genesis80 said:


> Where do daemons go when Draigo kills them in the WARP? I only know when u kill those dudes in realspace they go back into the warp to brood (i mean regain strength)


I think it's like Halo. The daemon sees a snapshot of Draigo Teabagging his corpse, has to wait five seconds before hearing three beeps, and then they respawn.



genesis80 said:


> Also, wouldent Draigo have gotten Khorne a lil pissed off by now with all his antics? Im suprised the blood god hasnt whacked him yet.


That's how awesome Draigo is. Khorne knows he can't win.


----------



## hungryugolino

Akhara'Keth said:


> And also the stuff about Justicar Thawn. I mean, the guy is basically immortal! Gets killed all the time and then TADAAA! Playing Jesus and coming back to life....


Justicar Jack Harkness?


----------



## Mathai

Well, from my understanding of the chaos gods, its that they care little for anything less than their ideal. Everything exists to propogate their purpose. Its why Tzeentch always changes his otherwise perfect plots on a seeming whim. It is there for change, not for supremacy.

And Khorne exists for carnage and bloodshed. I think that Khorne is loving every minute of it! Draigo is leaving a path of destruction behind him that exists no where else in realspace or the warp, to Khorne I'd imagine that its like a fine wine to his senses.


----------



## Azezel

Hungryugolino - I congratulate you on your disturbing new avatar.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Azezel said:


> Hungryugolino - I congratulate you on your disturbing new avatar.


At first I had no idea what it was, some sort of Sisters of Battle in power armour I thought. Now I noticed it's a Grey Knight with a Sisters scalp on his head... 
At least it's fluffy.... /[email protected]


----------



## Irbian

LOL, didnt notice that before.

I dont have too much left to read but Im more convinced that the "no GK have turn to chaos" doesnt mean "they are inmune". They have differents levels of resistance.


----------



## hungryugolino

Fine work by the drawfriends of /tg/.


----------



## Azezel

hungryugolino said:


> Fine work by the drawfriends of /tg/.


I might've guessed.

Want a new Avatar, Irbian?


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> I might've guessed.
> 
> Want a new Avatar, Irbian?


DO IT, DOOOOO IIIIIIT!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just found this over at DakkaDakka



bloodaxegit said:


> I was at warhammer world for the schools league, and Wayde Price was giving us a talk about the new Grey Knights. In this, he mentioned other parts of the inquisition, including the sisters of battle; who he said will be updated later this year!


Wade Price is a designer or something at GW. 
Some GW article



> The most Khorne-obsessed wargamer we've ever met, the Studio's Wade Price is synonymous with the battle-crazed.....


So there is a Wade Price at GW, how legit this rumour is I dont know.



bloodaxegit said:


> All i know is that they will have a 'proper' published codex and nought else. However I would expect to see some new plastics.


Now this popped up at Warseer...



> Hi,
> 
> I was at the Regional School League Finals yesterday at Warhammer World. I will were given a talk from the Communication Manager (Design Studio) couldn't remember his name.
> He was talking about Grey Knights, slightly off topic but he did say their vision of 40K is big armies. That is why they moved away from Inquistors and allies (they said that Inqusitors are to squishy to fight demons!)
> 
> He did say at the beginning of the talk that he wouldn't be talking about anything that is out in the future. He then said that Sisters of Battle is the other main ordos and these are out next year.
> 
> I hope this is new news!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> rob


I would personally put more faith in this one since there doesn't really seem to be room for a Sisters release this year, unless they switched out the Crons for SoB...


----------



## Irbian

OMG YES!

I have some ideas in mind...if I have time I´ll let you know... 

Edit:You can call me babydoll


----------



## Azezel

Er, that was actually a joke, Irbian - I am honoured.


Well spotted, MCC. That tallies exactly with our predicted timetable. Shame the speaker seems to equate sisters with the Inquisition though. that could bea portent of somehing unfortunate.


----------



## Irbian

A joke? What Im going to do with the picture of a GK using a decapitated sister like a bottle of deodorant?


----------



## hungryugolino

Given GW's recent track record with fluff, we can expect Chaos Sisters and other incredible tales. Incredible in the sense of their plausibility, not their writing level.

Just, please, don't let Ward write it. With the latest fluff, he's gone from irritating but ultimately good for the army in question (at the cost of everyone else) to the Anticanon.

:angry:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

When there was talk about a combined codex I speculated that you would see a GK, SoB and Inquisition section in the codex. When it was later said the GK codex would include all the Ordos Inquisitors I speculated that the GK codex and the SoB codex would probably be identical but with the GKs switched for SoB and vice versa.
I really hope they dont just do a copy paste of the GK codex but change the name of every GK unit for Sisters.
I would like something a bit more unique than what the GK dex became.


----------



## Winterous

hungryugolino said:


> Just, please, don't let Ward write it. With the latest fluff, he's gone from irritating but ultimately good for the army in question (at the cost of everyone else) to the Anticanon.
> 
> :angry:


All I'm hearing is "Whinge whinge Q Q baseless opinions".
The GK fluff isn't absurd, it's just DIFFERENT from what it used to be.
After a long time between this and the last codex, it makes perfect sense for there to be significant changes.


----------



## Azezel

Irbian said:


> A joke? What Im going to do with the picture of a GK using a decapitated sister like a bottle of deodorant?


Oh god how I wish I could draw...



hungryugolino said:


> Just, please, don't let Ward write it. With the latest fluff, he's gone from irritating but ultimately good for the army in question (at the cost of everyone else) to the Anticanon.
> :angry:


Good news (everyone) - s'far as we know, Codex: Sisters of Battle was started shortly after Codex: Grey Knights. Harry said that at any rate and he usually knows his stuff. It seems unlikely that Ward could've got his hooks into both books. Particularly if he was also abusing red space marines at the time.

I agree with your assesment, Hungryugolino. From the sound of it there apears to be vry little in the new codex' fluff that paints the Grey Knights in a good light.

My heart goes out to those of you who liked the real Grey Knights. The ones that didn't use sorcery and daemon weapons and... and Force Ghosts for the love of sanity.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Nope ... Matty boy just started his next project ... Codexark Angels. 3 of the last 4 Space marines books have been done by him ... let the tradition continue I say. At the very minimum you will get books that are all worded about the same and will not have to try and figure out what he is trying to explain.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Azezel, just noticed your post count, one of the last 2 was number 666, in the gk thread, how fitting.

Actually being worked on...not eaten by tyranids to the last woman, even the sororitas that were nowhere close to the infestation is a good day in 40k...just ask the you know whats...


----------



## abitterbuffalo

MadCowCrazy said:


> When there was talk about a combined codex I speculated that you would see a GK, SoB and Inquisition section in the codex. When it was later said the GK codex would include all the Ordos Inquisitors I speculated that the GK codex and the SoB codex would probably be identical but with the GKs switched for SoB and vice versa.
> I really hope they dont just do a copy paste of the GK codex but change the name of every GK unit for Sisters.
> I would like something a bit more unique than what the GK dex became.


This all is leading me to think that the Inquisition will also be represented in the new Sisters of Battle codex. They don't take up too much space in the Grey Knights Codex (three out of seven named HQ, three out of seven other HQ, and five [including assassins] out of nine elite). 

If they are going to play similar to the Grey Knights, then most likely Acts of Faith will become unit specific abilities. As with Necron's tech mimicking warp spells, they will probably be reduced to simple Ld tests. Perhaps if the veteran superior dies the unit becomes unable to use Acts for the rest of the game.

I've thought of another use for any Battle Sisters you may have lying around (as I have). They're pretty much geared to be Warrior Acolytes with Bolters and Power Armor. No AoF in the GK codex, but still a viable counts as.


----------



## Winterous

abitterbuffalo said:


> I've thought of another use for any Battle Sisters you may have lying around (as I have). They're pretty much geared to be Warrior Acolytes with Bolters and Power Armor. No AoF in the GK codex, but still a viable counts as.


I think that 15 points for something a lot worse than a Tactical Marine is a bit of a ripoff, to be honest.


----------



## abitterbuffalo

Winterous said:


> I think that 15 points for something a lot worse than a Tactical Marine is a bit of a ripoff, to be honest.


Yeah, I made no comment on their effectiveness, just merely pointing out that they can be used as such. I'm sure no one would complain about using them as Warriors with just flack or carapace armor and whatever weapon you have the model for. It's just nice to know that the Battle Sisters I have won't go completely unused until the new codex.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Purge the Heretic said:


> Azezel, just noticed your post count, one of the last 2 was number 666, in the gk thread, how fitting.
> 
> Actually being worked on...not eaten by tyranids to the last woman, even the sororitas that were nowhere close to the infestation is a good day in 40k...just ask the you know whats...


I had my reputation reach 666 a few weeks ago  It's a sign I tell ya! A SIGN!


They will most likely copy paste the henchmen entry but change the names a bit. Banisher becomes Zealot, Crusader becomes Arbites SWAT member, Jokaero is removed as is Psyker and Mystic, replaced with some Arbites, Confessors or Frateris Militia. Warrior Acolyte become Priests.

I really hope Acts of Faith dont turn into unit specific things, I like the old system but it needs updating and the rolling above or below unit size needs to go.


----------



## Irbian

NEWS! Stickmonkey on warseer



> I'm posting this in news and rumors only as it's relevant to upcoming releases. I received word yesterday my "blackout" clause of my NDA for 3 upcoming codex armies would go in to effect April 1. (ha, that's what I thought too.)
> 
> Those three armies are Tau, Necron, and SoB.
> 
> Now the earliest they've ever enacted this on me before has been 6 months out. And the shortest duration has been 2 months out. I have no info telling me A. What order any of these codexes will be released. B. That they will be consistent with that duration. Just thought it may serve as additional evidence for what's on the horizon.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Hmm, when I close down this thread next week I was going to start up a Necron thread, now I'm not so sure...
Necron do have the most amount of rumours though with unit specifics etc which the Sisters dont have and Tau have very few of.


----------



## hungryugolino

There definitely isn't a thread discussing an alleged leak on 4chan's /tg/ right now, and it definitely doesn't have pictures of what might be the troopers for witchhunters.


----------



## Irbian

You are right, there aren´t three pages of what it seems a playtest copy


----------



## Winterous

hungryugolino said:


> There definitely isn't a thread discussing an alleged leak on 4chan's /tg/ right now, and it definitely doesn't have pictures of what might be the troopers for witchhunters.


I love you ~<3


----------



## Kettu

@hungryugolino;
Damn, beat me in sharing this non-news.

The fact that it's 01/04 at this point seems to suggest a joke but then again...
Not a very funny joke, mind you, with no HFlamers, Faith or BoSL.


----------



## Azezel

hungryugolino said:


> There definitely isn't a thread discussing an alleged leak on 4chan's /tg/ right now, and it definitely doesn't have pictures of what might be the troopers for witchhunters.


Then I won't go and look, and didn't give you any reputation.


----------



## Winterous

Kettu said:


> @hungryugolino;
> Damn, beat me in sharing this non-news.
> 
> The fact that it's 01/04 at this point seems to suggest a joke but then again...
> Not a very funny joke, mind you, with no HFlamers, Faith or BoSL.


This is a REGULAR unit of Battle Sisters, why do they need Heavy Flamers?
And do you happen to know what Blood of Matyrs or Light of the Emperor do? No? Well then you can't say there aren't any Acts of Faith.


----------



## ashikenshin

I want to believe


----------



## Winterous

ashikenshin said:


> I want to believe


I think it's legit.


----------



## Mathai

MadCowCrazy said:


> Hmm, when I close down this thread next week I was going to start up a Necron thread, now I'm not so sure...
> Necron do have the most amount of rumours though with unit specifics etc which the Sisters dont have and Tau have very few of.


 
Since the thread is half Witch Hunter, wouldnt that be a bit premature? Or are you going off the fact that since 'Daemonhunters' is no longer a codex, that the other one wont be 'Witchhunters' as well and therefore not applicable? =)


----------



## Synack

I was about to come post, as it was uploaded to BoK and I got a email.

I dunno how real it is, but it's always fun to see rumours. The lack of Heavy Flamers for the normal SoB kinda sucks, since they have it currently.


----------



## Azezel

I dearly hope that it's not legit.

Lack of Heavy Flamers, lack of Eviscerators (not to mention plasma pistols, which I also use more than I should) is bad enough. Inclusion of Arbities is a bad idea made worse by the fact that they seem rather better than Sisters from those statblocks.

And from the look of those special rules, Acts of Faith as we know them seem out. Blood of Martyrs could concievably be something akin to Spirit of the Martyr, but neither would seem to be likely to cover more than one Act of Faith.

I wouldn't mind, but acording to my advisory system, it's clearly not time to start photoshopping fake codices.




Stickmonkey said:


> I'm posting this in news and rumors only as it's relevant to upcoming releases. I received word yesterday my "blackout" clause of my NDA for 3 upcoming codex armies would go in to effect April 1. (ha, that's what I thought too.)
> 
> Those three armies are Tau, Necron, and SoB.
> 
> Now the earliest they've ever enacted this on me before has been 6 months out. And the shortest duration has been 2 months out. I have no info telling me A. What order any of these codexes will be released. B. That they will be consistent with that duration. Just thought it may serve as additional evidence for what's on the horizon.


Now, does this mean that Sisters are less than six months away? I really cannot see that - not only is there no time, but the models are not supposed to be nearly ready. Not unless Jes was actively lying (rather than just concealing the truth) in November, and I don't think that likely.

Is it possible that Dice Like Thunder was right and there will be a WD update? that also seems unlikely.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I really hope it's fake, those 4 pics do look similar to the GK leak though but that's probably meant so it looks like it, if it is indeed fake.

Seems a bit too early though, I would have expected to see Necron ones, all I've seen so far is one for Necron warriors.


----------



## Tuatara

Kettu said:


> The fact that it's 01/04 at this point seems to suggest a joke but then again...


I hope it is a joke. I was thinking about switching from GK to Tau. The main reason being that now GK are competitive, I'll have no more excuses for only having a 25% win record. With Tau I would


----------



## Irbian

It seems that it has been posted something on BoK but I dont know what. Any idea?


----------



## edd_thereaper

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but at the school league regional finals yesterday in nottingham, whilst the results were being worked out we all had a talk from games develepor Wayde Price, who after talking to us about GK for ages confirmed that Sisters of battle will be released later this year

cheers

edd


----------



## MadCowCrazy

edd_thereaper said:


> I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but at the school league regional finals yesterday in nottingham, whilst the results were being worked out we all had a talk from games develepor Wayde Price, who after talking to us about GK for ages confirmed that Sisters of battle will be released later this year
> 
> cheers
> 
> edd


Quoted a few pages back, we have 2 sources on this saying two different things.

The one on DakkaDakka says later this year, the one on Warseer says next year.


----------



## Synack

I really hope Sob is either really late in the year or next year, I can't afford updating 2 armies in a row


----------



## Vhalyar

MadCowCrazy said:


> I would have expected to see Necron ones, all I've seen so far is one for Necron warriors.


It's extremely easy to (re)make an army reference sheet like the official ones, so I don't put much stock in these, for the time being at least.
As for the necron one, did you mean this? Because I just stumbled on it and it's hilarious. I wrote a mini-fandex over at the C'tan Support Group (the old one) and someone basically printed and scanned it back to pass it off as a leak :shok:

They could at least have ripped off my newer stuff :biggrin:


----------



## Azezel

So what's all this I'm hearing about Mat Ward's White Dwarf article? Did he really say he is writing codex: Sisters of Battle? Say it aint so.


----------



## hungryugolino

On that note, the non-existent Arbites need better BS than 3, grenades, and plastics. 

Other than that, I can say that I'm rather happy with the nonexistent stats for arbites and sisters.


----------



## Necrosis

*Looks at the Date*
Haha, very funny.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Vhalyar said:


> It's extremely easy to (re)make an army reference sheet like the official ones, so I don't put much stock in these, for the time being at least.
> As for the necron one, did you mean this? Because I just stumbled on it and it's hilarious. I wrote a mini-fandex over at the C'tan Support Group (the old one) and someone basically printed and scanned it back to pass it off as a leak :shok:
> 
> They could at least have ripped off my newer stuff :biggrin:


Yupp, that one. So you made a fandex and someone ripped it? Good to find confirmation it's fake


----------



## Synack

Ugh...

WTB: Phil Kelly SoB codex pls.


----------



## Slinky

Necrosis said:


> *Looks at the Date*
> Haha, very funny.


31st March is funny?


----------



## Necrosis

Slinky said:


> 31st March is funny?


*Cough* Timezones *Cough*


----------



## Irbian

Harry Piemaster said:


> Sisters were started just over six months after Grey Knights so it follows they would be finished just over six months after Grey Knights.
> 
> It also follows that whoever wrote Grey Knights was not the lead writer on Sisters.
> 
> (Because they were always separate projects)


So... Necrons, Sisters and Tau in that order? How we have the slots?


----------



## Azezel

Harry said:


> The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
> Not right after .... a little while after.


This we already know, although when Harry said that (back in august) I got the impression that it was less than 6 months, not more.

For my part, I fully beleive that the codex is complete, or nearly so (in fact, I said as much upthread), and it is the models that will decide the issue date.

I'm pleased as Punch to hear that Ward isn't/wasn't the lead writer.

It's pretty clear that we don't have the slots for three codices this year, but if they started working on the models right... _*Now!*_ The codex could be released Q2/3 next year, with Tau in the Autumn and 6e for christmas. I can see that happening, thoug my money is still on Q3/4 for Sisters.


----------



## Zenzi

well, this is quite interesting for the fact that it seems that it is slightly up in the air of which dex is coming next.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Irbian said:


> So... Necrons, Sisters and Tau in that order? How we have the slots?


This is years schedule as far as we know.

April : GK
May : TK
June : DE 2nd Wave
July : Fantasy or LotR?
August : Summer of fliers?
September : Fantasy or LotR?
October : Necrons?
November : Fantasy or LotR
December : Nothing as usual

January : Sisters of Battle?
February : Fantasy or LotR?
March : Tau?

This is in no way official and the best case scenario for 40k. You also have to remember that it is likely to see a Fantasy release one month and a LotR the next. There is always some LotR shit thrown in there somewhere, expect to see allot more when that new LotR movie is released...

Harry just posted this


Harry said:


> Sisters were started just over six months after Grey Knights so it follows they would be finished just over six months after Grey Knights.
> 
> It also follows that whoever wrote Grey Knights was not the lead writer on Sisters.
> 
> (Because they were always separate projects)


----------



## Irbian

Wait, isnt that in my post? 

Someone recognize this green? http://images.4chan.org/tg/src/1301610707595.jpg


----------



## Kalishnikov-47

I do not see anything from that except the 4chan.org image.


----------



## Azezel

Irbian said:


> Wait, isnt that in my post?
> 
> Someone recognize this green? http://images.4chan.org/tg/src/1301610707595.jpg


Looks like a Sister of Sigmar to me - and not a GW one, just someone's own sculpt. Definately not a Battle Sister. That's not power armour and there's not a fluer-de-lys or I to be seen.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> So what's all this I'm hearing about Mat Ward's White Dwarf article? Did he really say he is writing codex: Sisters of Battle? Say it aint so.


Only reference I saw was him boasting about the "sacrifice sisters to make wards" story.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

mahavira said:


> Only reference I saw was him boasting about the "sacrifice sisters to make wards" story.


This is the best way to describe that piece of fluff...

Grey Knights are frustrated because of the Blood Haze thing,
Sisters of Battle show up to offer some aid,
Grey Knights get their virgin blood to protect them from Chaos,
Daemons of Khorne show up because they think it's a blood offering to Khorne,
Grey Knights get high on victory so the Emperor comes and picks them up on his golden chariot and takes them to paradise...






I received 3 medals today 
On April 1st....
Thanks to everyone who suggested me for a medal


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> This is the best way to describe that piece of fluff...
> 
> Grey Knights are frustrated because of the Blood Haze thing,
> Sisters of Battle show up to offer some aid,
> Grey Knights get their virgin blood to protect them from Chaos,
> Daemons of Khorne show up because they think it's a blood offering to Khorne,
> Grey Knights get high on victory so the Emperor comes and picks them up on his golden chariot and takes them to paradise...


Awesome reference 



MadCowCrazy said:


> I received 3 medals today
> On April 1st....
> Thanks to everyone who suggested me for a medal


I GOT TWO 
Mark of Nurgle, which itself is only an accomplishment as far as "I have not been permabanned.". Damn you LO, stingy bastards.

And, surprisingly, crest of the fucking wise!
I mean I make good posts, but I wouldn't exactly define it as a consistent thing :S
I'm one of 50 

Thanks, medal pixies!


----------



## Azezel

Despite the fact that we have not always agreed - you have always struck me as wise, Winterous. Very well deserved.



mahavira said:


> Only reference I saw was him boasting about the "sacrifice sisters to make wards" story.


Oh god, he didn't actually boast about that, did he? What did he actually say?


----------



## Irbian

Congratulations to the ones who have win a medal

There isnt one for the ones who have more reputation than posts?


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Congrats Madcowcrazy, Winterous and all other medal recipients.




I'm still trying to decide if the mis-spelling makes this SOB stuff more or less believable...

:dunno:

A few concerns I have with the page is that additional sisters are still 10 points (no reduction or gain? Yet every other army has lost a point or two off basic troops, even SM.), and Arbites cost the same as a sister, I'm offended. Supressor shield has been renamed suppression shield in the "leak", and something bugs me about the format of the dedicated transport sections...can't put my finger on it...lack of punctuation?


----------



## Azezel

Sisters are currently 11 points and, depending on how Faith works/doesn't work in this hypothetical codex, the Sister Superior may have the advantages of a Veterant Sister Superior for 'free'

That means a ten-strong sqaud would cost 24 points less than an equivalent squad today, and have Frag Grenades & Bolt Pistols thrown in.

Battle Sisters are already a very cost-effective unit - the Sisters in that leak are a god-damned bargain, even assuming that Faith has been gutted.

Of course, bargain or not, they are not worth taking - with no Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs or Eviscerators they will be eaten by any walker that strolls by and there's not a thing you could do about it.


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> they will be eaten by any walker that strolls by and there's not a thing you could do about it.


Walkers like.... dreadknight in a blood tide? :biggrin:


----------



## Azezel

Irbian said:


> Walkers like.... dreadknight in a blood tide? :biggrin:


Y'know, I was going to let it go. Just wash my hands of it and pretend the whole sorry story didn't exist. But I can't. Not now that it's been brought up again.

so since you brought it up - I had the chance to flick through the damned 'dex today and of course, the only thing I was looking for was that story.

I read it and in the middle came to the following start to a sentence:



Mat Ward said:


> In the end Kagagonath (No, I can't spell it, but it had about three dozen apostrophes in it) is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of...


'Hm, at least Ward is going to recognise the true heroines here,' I thought.



Mat Ward said:


> ...Ordan, champion of the 4th Brotherhood.


Mr. Ward... I have a personal message for you:

In the unlikely event that you should ever come across this post, I want you to imagine something. I realise that imagination isn't your strong suit, so I will work with you, I will provide detailed imagery.

Imagine my fist, tightly clenched, then one finger, my middle finger slowly uncurls. Slowly, but without hesitation my middle finger extends until it stands proud from its brother digits.

Can you picture this? You probably think I'm giving you the finger, but that's not what's going on here. What I want you instead to imagine is that I want to punch you so very much that my fist has an erection.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Thing I'm afraid of is that if this is real that means the basic sister squad would be reduced to something you only take to get an extra Immolator or Repressor in your army.

Replacing their bolters for a CCW isn't really exciting even if it's free, would only be viable if you could string together faiths so you can get both +2S and +2I on the same unit and the effects stacking with no negatives. Then I would consider changing the bolters for a CCW, if you can't do something like this it would be a complete waste unless sisters are now the new kroot walls...

If this is true then they are 1pt cheaper, get frag and bolt pistols for free.

I said it a few months ago after reading the DE codex that maybe sisters could get something similar to power from pain but in reverse, instead of getting stuff for killing units they would get bonuses for losing units... allot of people said it was a bad idea because it rewards failure, you would basically have a few units you just send in to die basically.

The Blood of Martyrs rule sounds like it would be something to that effect, the old one was called Martyrdom and only affected faithful characters like VSS, Canoness etc but the naming of this one suggests more blood being spilt.

I guess they could do something similar to Epidemius, the nurgle dude that for every kill you do you get a army bonus for Nurgle units. So for every model with the Adepta Sororitas rule that died would add to a bonus. Like if you lose 10 you get stubborn, 20 you get fearless, 30 you get slow and purpose full, 40 you get relentless.
I dunno, throw in some bonuses to S, I, A, WS or BS and some USRs. It would be fluffy as in all fluff sisters never yield and are pretty much ALWAYS slayed to the last member.

Light of the Emperor worries me, currently it's an AoF (Act of Faith) that makes the unit fearless. Why would this be bad you ask? Well, it seems it could be something similar to the psyhic powers all the different GKs have.
Basically :
Battle Sisters - Light of the Emperor = Fearless
Seraphim - The Passion or Hand of the Emperor = +2I or +2S
Retributors - Divine Guidance = Ap1 on a wound roll of 6 for ranged, power weapon for mele.

This would be a horrible system imo, I would rather work with faith points and acts of faith than something like that.

Sacred Relic is a curious one, in the current WH codex there are 3 things that could represent this.
The most obvious ones are:
Sacred Standard = 6" bubble that adds +1 to combat resolution
Sacred Banner of the Order Militant = 12" bubble that grants Fearless

The less obvious one would be:
Simulacrum Imperialis = Roll 3D6 for AoF and chose 2 dice.

Another thing that worries me is the lack of the Adepta Sororitas rule, even if they had some rule somewhere saying all female units in this codex has this and this they would still list it in the Special Rules section of the unit profile.

All in all I would be disappointed if this turned out to be true, they would be turning sisters into poorly equipped space marines with inferior stats. Cheaper but.... hey wait a minute?!
Up to 2 Sisters may take Arcashitt, flamer or Meltagun... no heavy flamer but I can now see why it's gone! Your squad is just 5 BS strong, and 2 special weapons per 5 members? Holy shit?!
If this is real they should change it to for every 5 members 2 may take arca, flamer or melta. As it is I can understand why there are no longer any heavy flamers, that would get silly really fast. Still 2 meltaguns for 70pt is really cheap and exactly what people used to take IST for (except they were taken for plasmaguns).

Would be really cool if you could take a 20 Battle Sister unit with 8 melta, arca or FLAMERS!! in it  Holy shit that would be awesome  For this I could accept the loss of the heavy flamer. They wouldn't be too bad in the 12-24" battle either with this, sure they still die in CC but Sisters have always been about the 12-24" shooting battle.

Ah well, only time will tell I suppose...


Lol at above post, I'd give you rep but can't atm


----------



## Arias

Azezel, thank you for the Sig material. I want to have your mutated babies.


----------



## mahavira

Azezel said:


> Despite the fact that we have not always agreed - you have always struck me as wise, Winterous. Very well deserved.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, he didn't actually boast about that, did he? What did he actually say?


The article was written a bit wierdly - his exact quote was "By the same token, if slaying their Battle Sister allies provides the pure blood needd to enact a banishing ritual against warp-spawn, then a Justicar may well order it." The article continued: Putting aside teh Grey Knights' pragmatism for a moment (Mat spoke with a little too much relish when extolling the previous example)...

I am not a charitable person, so I interpret it to mean he's pretty pleased with himself regarding the story and wanted to be sure everyone knew about it. On the other hand, that's the first time I've ever seen the words "Battle Sister" in a White Dwarf, so maybe this is a step up...


----------



## Irbian

Azezel said:


> Y'know, I was going to let it go. Just wash my hands of it and pretend the whole sorry story didn't exist. But I can't. Not now that it's been brought up again.
> 
> so since you brought it up - I had the chance to flick through the damned 'dex today and of course, the only thing I was looking for was that story.
> 
> I read it and in the middle came to the following start to a sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Hm, at least Ward is going to recognise the true heroines here,' I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Ward... I have a personal message for you:
> 
> In the unlikely event that you should ever come across this post, I want you to imagine something. I realise that imagination isn't your strong suit, so I will work with you, I will provide detailed imagery.
> 
> Imagine my fist, tightly clenched, then one finger, my middle finger slowly uncurls. Slowly, but without hesitation my middle finger extends until it stands proud from its brother digits.
> 
> Can you picture this? You probably think I'm giving you the finger, but that's not what's going on here. What I want you instead to imagine is that I want to punch you so very much that my fist has an erection.




I understand your feelings. Even I dont care a lot about this piece and make jokes of GKs surfing dead sisters body I understand that people is pissed off.

Is typical from the code to present weird things, where the other armies are just full of crap and you are the best of the best. But this time is not like that, is not like the sisters lose against Gk, is that they are a simple innocent sacrifice, like killing childrens or nuns. Wait...

Do you imagine the idea?
- Erm... yeah sir grand master. We can´t fight that daemons. We aren´t pure enough
- WHAAT? Ok, make a blood mix and use it to protect your armour
Later...
- Let me see...- The GM try the mix with a finger - It. needs. more. NUNS!


----------



## Winterous

Irbian said:


> - Let me see...- The GM try the mix with a finger - It. needs. more. NUNS!


...And a dash of paprika!


----------



## Brovius

I like how Irbian's main army is Sisterhunters


----------



## Irbian

Yeah, because you know, who watches the watchmen? and who watches the ones who whatches the wathcmen?


----------



## Azezel

Brovius said:


> I like how Irbian's main army is Sisterhunters


Damn, I didn't even see that. Well played, Irbian!


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Brovius said:


> I like how Irbian's main army is Sisterhunters


I laughed so hard I sounded like a donkey with asthma :crazy:


----------



## Irbian

hey hey, Im coherent with the current fluff

enough said. Now im thinking that instead of the current dreadknight vs daemon prince diorama Im thinking, I would use a penitent engine...


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I wish, the penitent engine is only tall enough so the pilot could give the DK pilot a bj...


----------



## Irbian

Fair enough, it would be like in the fluff then...


So... I have realize that
Valeria have shield
Dont have neither mini, neither picture
Do you like the character? (on game)


----------



## Bindi Baji

Irbian said:


> and who watches the ones who whatches the wathcmen?


apparently it's a bearded trannsexual Grey Knight called Sharon


----------



## coke123

Irbian said:


> So... I have realize that
> Valeria have shield
> Dont have neither mini, neither picture
> Do you like the character? (on game)


Valeria's interesting, but I think that both Karamazov and Coteaz offer more. Karamazov offers all kinds of shenanigans involving his particular brand of orbital strike and his reroll bubble, and well, everyone love coteaz and his henchmen.

Although I am interested in converting up a Valeria model, if only to use up some of the Eldar bits I have lying around


----------



## Winterous

coke123 said:


> everyone love coteaz and his henchmen.


Oh dude, Coteaz is a fucking BARGAIN for his price!
He allows you to re-roll your 'who goes first' die, or force your opponent to do the same.
But that's not all! Call now and we'll throw in a herd of space monkeys ABSOLUTELY FREE!


----------



## Azezel

Winterous said:


> herd of space monkeys


Troop. A collection of monkeys (or apes) is a troop. And with Coteaz, a Troop choice, too!


----------



## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Troop. A collection of monkeys (or apes) is a troop. And with Coteaz, a Troop choice, too!


I stand by the term herd, it is more hilarious.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

I'd call it a poo flinging factory but that's just me 

Going to have to model some monkeys throwing shit for my jokaero.

Question, can anyone else access warseer? I get all kinds of virus warnings from that place right now, has it been hacked or something?


----------



## Necrosis

Nope, I can't seem to get on warseer. I think Google is just being a bitch again.


----------



## oiad

Accessing the forum through the main page and then asking to ignore the warnings still allows you to view it. You just have to put up with a warning with each page you open. Not that much has happened, likely because of it.


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## tu_shan82

Searching the internet an came across these. Sorry if they've been posted already, did a quick search and didn't find them and I certainly wasn't gonna go through and check every single page of this thread manually. I'm not entirely sure of the authenticity of these so take them with your usual dose of salt.


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## MadCowCrazy

tu_shan82 said:


> Searching the internet an came across these. Sorry if they've been posted already, did a quick search and didn't find them and I certainly wasn't gonna go through and check every single page of this thread manually. I'm not entirely sure of the authenticity of these so take them with your usual dose of salt.


That picture is really old, I've had it on my computer for years. It's from a person on deviantart.


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## Irbian

Hey tu_shan, I like your mini banners... where did you get them?


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## tu_shan82

I got them here mate. They are designed to be used for the PC RTS game Dawn of War. I had to put them in row and then cut them out using MS paint as they actually come in singles like this. 










There are quite a few to choose from, I just picked the ones that fit in with my current and future 40k army projects.


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## Irbian

cheers!

Well, I read completely the codex and I like it. Maybe the Sisterhunters issue could be weird, but Im ok with that. I only miss some kind of motorbike or something to be able to convert them to jetbikes (that idea grew strong on me)


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## MadCowCrazy

I might just do Plague Knights, allot of the stuff in the GK codex sounds so nurgly to me.
Like the cleansing flame psychic power that wounds everything in assault on 4+, instead of a psychic test the plague bearers are asking nurgle for favor.
Wounding other daemons on 2+ and preffered enemy daemons would all just be poisonous attacks and reroll poison vs toughness thing.
Dread knight would be something like this:


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## hungryugolino

Where'd you get Ward's child photos?


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## MadCowCrazy

So Grey Knights are out, I will be closing down this thread later this week.
It has been a long run indeed and I want to thank everyone who contributed to the longevity of this thread.

I know it's a mess and there are allot of things that can be improved, my next rumours thread will be Necrons but if those Sister leaks are real I'm wondering if we'll see sisters next?
I will be creating a more general and focused thread, one with a 12 month prediction and other things of interest. So look forwards to that thread at the end of the week.


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## Kettu

Let us see how the Sister of Battle rumours unfold over the next few years.

Well, it's been swell.
But the swelling has gone down now.

See you all around the interwebz.


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## rasolyo

You've done a lot to keep this thread, and everyone willing to pore through it, updated on the Grey Knights, MadCow. Bravo sir, bravo. :clapping:


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## oiad

Closing it despite the looming possibility of an Sororitas release within the next year? Bet a new thread will be opened soon after anyway. :biggrin:

Still, it has been a fun thread to tune in to - even for those like me who have been happy to just sit back, read up and occasionally laugh through most of it.


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## Irbian

Thanks for all the people who has contribuited. It has been a long way. Maybe we´ll see in the next Compilation Threads  If I have some time, maybe I´ll try to revisit the old predictions/rumours and see how accurate they are  It will be a interesting excercise


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## Shandathe

I wonder if we got a record for longest thread out of it... Cheers MCC, thanks for all the good times.


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## Irbian

Lerra:
- Removal of allies
- Codex Earlier than expected

The 11th Company Podcast Ep 22:
- Codex on December

Fritz:
- Codex on october
- Power weapons
- S6 and rending

BOLS:
- Codex on January

Blue Table Painting:
- Codex later that year (end 2010)

www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk
- The next new army and codex is for Witch Hunters. So Modelling-Mayhem will list these items when the new stock is released.


Sticky Monkey

-lots of psycannon vehicle upgrades (Maybe psybolts?)

-GK Jetbikes possible

- Landspeeder variant possible, though Stickymonkey seemed unsure if this made it to the final design stages

-GK Chaplain (Brotherhood champion?)


Harry

-Artificer Armor instead of Power Armor is possible


Uther on GK forums

-Drop Pods (probably for Dreadnoughts) are in, with some sort of special variant

-Stern is dead in the fluff

-NFWs can Insta-kill Daemons

-GKs have some sort of Apothecary, but may be a special Character

And here ends more or less the Rumour section 7


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## MadCowCrazy

The new thread will be up by the end of the week, I will try to make it allot more understandable and once a month or so I will remake it so it doesn't get as clogged as this one. I will compile everything into a single thread but the sticky you see at the top of this section wont ever reach a post count like this one.

I think everyone will find the new thread allot better and easier to navigate. Then again it's not exactly hard to find the rumours in this thread, just look at page 1 but some people want to read though an entire thread because there are always interesting things said that dont count as rumours so dont end up on page 1.

Next thread will be a mix of Necron, Sisters and Tau. With Necrons being said to have received a pushback and now these sisters play test leaks it could mean sisters are next but who knows. The next 40k wave is DE 2nd wave and after that should be Summer of fliers. I'd say there is only room for 1 more codex this year and it will be in Q4, unless they do something unexpected like release 2 dexes in the same month or something.


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## hungryugolino

It started in hope, veered off into disbelief and despair, and ended in utter confusion and decidedly mixed feelings.


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## Tuatara

Thank you MCC for all your hard work in this and also to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was certainly interesting to read (not to mention time consuming ).


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## Synack

awesome thread


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## Azezel

Gentlemen, it has been an honour speculating with you.


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## Purge the Heretic

TTFN I look forward to the next one.

Also blatant wishlisting:

Give me back my easy bake oven!!!!


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## Mathai

ANd a big thanks to Katie Drake for those first ever pics way back when. =) I never really felt the bloodlust until that moment


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## Judas Masias

Thanks for this thred MCC it was fun while it lasted. I can't wate for the next one.


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## Katie Drake

Mathai said:


> ANd a big thanks to Katie Drake for those first ever pics way back when. =) I never really felt the bloodlust until that moment


I live to serve. :good:


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## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> I live to serve. :good:


Th-Thankyou, g-great master!


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## Platton725

It's mistress innit?

Anyway, huge thanks to all the contributors of this thread, and MCC especially.


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## Mathai

I know its a crazy thought because we are still a bit of a way away from it, but you should leave this thread open until it gets to page 666. Then this whole thing will go out with a proper bang! =)


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## TheSpore

Mathai said:


> I know its a crazy thought because we are still a bit of a way away from it, but you should leave this thread open until it gets to page 666. Then this whole thing will go out with a proper bang! =)


I will second that...


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## elektra

*Plastic sisters*

Just came across this.

http://www.golden-throne.com/forums/index.php

This is what it contains:

Quote:
A few sisters of battle Tidbits.

Some info about the sister’s codex coming out this fall:

The Sisters of Battle codex is taking a step away from the old codex’s focus on the Inquisition, and is now more of a codex focused on the Ecclesiarchy. The codex will represent the sisters much more truly to their roots in the fluff, and the non sister codex allies have been changed accordingly. More than many codexes’, the new Codex for sisters really feels like a brand new Codex.
Ok, so let’s start with the sisters themselves.

Redone in plastic, the sisters look great. While they won’t look out of place with the sisters of the past, they look much more like members of the church, though the over all look of the armor is very similar, if more ornate. The box set comes with enough plastic to make five sisters, but while we are only getting five girls per box, we are gaining a host of new options. The box contains bits to configure them as either regular sisters or Seraphim, and has tons of cool little extra bits to really make each unit unique. Gone are the Inquisition =I=’s, usually replaced with the fleur-de-lis. I counted eleven heads total, with five helmets, five without helmets and one with a gasmask / respirator type thing. Each of the eleven heads was a unique sculpt. The entire kit just really shows how far molds and model making has come since the days when our old sisters were cast, and while I would have been the first to scream heresy a year ago if you told me the sisters were changing, I have to say that the new ones really look fantastic.


I would like to take a moment to talk about their legs as well. I have always considered myself a modeler/painter first and a gamer second and one of the things that always bothered me about the old sisters were their legs. Like all metal miniatures, moding them was hard, and no sisters really had dynamic posses. The new legs have me really excited because they are very dynamic. I guess I would best compare them to the BA legs from their recent release. They really offer a lot of options in terms of modeling and are really one of the most exciting parts of the kit, in my opinion.


For weapon options the kit comes with a flamer, melt gun, storm bolter and pistol flamer as well as two guns I didn’t recognize including a weird rifle type thing and some gun that looked like a pistol from the 18th century with a torch bracket jammed on the end. There is a right and left handed version of both the pistol flamer and the other weird pistol. There were of course bolters / bolt pistols and both a power weapon and some chain swords. What I really liked about the weapons was their level of detail and individuality. Even though they are the same war gear a squad of space marines might field every piece of equipment screams sisters, and while easily recognizable is quite different from their marine counterparts. I want to say the weapons are smaller, but they might just be sleeker. One of the bolters comes with a strap. 

The last thing I will mention about this new kit is that the jetpacks for the seraphim look much more like, well, like jet packs.


The Penitent engine is back in beautiful, mod-able plastic, and thankfully the remained true to its old design in many ways. It has four different options for its two close combat weapons, though I believe they are just aesthetics, and comes with parts to mount either flamer’s or melta’s under its arms. Looking at the kit, I believe its legs are possible similarly to the sentinels as it has a ball joint for its feet and little nubs / indents at the joint in its leg, which is very exciting since that will give us a lot more options when it comes to dynamic poses. Along with the weapons you also get several choices for drivers 3 icon badge things from the major sisters’ factions. A few other miscellaneous pieces like a scroll plate and such finish off the fun little extra bits. 

The repressor is finally making an appearance in plastic as well. It looks similar to the FW one, but has the turret reworked and a different dozer blade. It comes with quite a few options to sister it up, from the same three icons I mentioned above, though slightly bigger, to numerous scrolls and of course options for sister doors. The driver has options for a helmeted head or a regular bobcat sister head with a little microphone thingy.

There is also a kit for a new priest, which I could best compare to the empire wizard kit. Fantasy players will know what I am talking about. There are numerous heads from the bald friar look to the crazy bearded look. Additionally we have options for plasma pistols, bolt pistols, and flamer pistols as well as a book arm and of course a gigantic chain sword. The model doesn’t have anything in the way of armor, though the chain sword looks almost big enough that he could hide behind it. 

Well that’s all I have for you for now. Sorry I haven’t much in the way of rules, and that’s always the really exciting part, but I though some folks might like to know a little bit about the new models.


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## Azezel

Hate to break it to you...


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## Winterous

Azezel said:


> Hate to break it to you...


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!


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## Katie Drake

Please be trolling.


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## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Please be trolling.


Who?
The people talking about the new plastic models, which they claim are good?

Why should that be trolling?


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## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Who?
> The people talking about the new plastic models, which they claim are good?
> 
> Why should that be trolling?


Was referring to the person that posted an exact replica of an existing thread in here.


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## elektra

I was only trying to be helpful.Pardon my ignorance for not conforming to your high standards.You would think that someone of your stature would be a bit more tolerent.


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## MadCowCrazy

I appreciate the effort, better luck next time


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## hungryugolino

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.


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