# New Dark Eldar and Necrons Coming Soon



## Judas Masias

I found this on BOLS. " I hope this is true"

So the latest 40k scheduling skuttlebutt says BOTH Dark Eldar and Necrons are well underway and headed towards us within the next 12 months.:shok: A variety of folks including some very good ones are saying to look for the new Dark Eldar Codex and 100% redone miniatures range to hit the shelves in the timeframe between Gamesday-UK 2010 and Christmas.:cray:


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## Holmstrom

That's...wow. Well, of course we all hope it's true too, but 12 months might turn in to never. At least as far as the Dark Eldar are concerned. 100% reworked models? That would be cool too.

Of course you know that if this proves to be untrue, we'll have to flay you alive and parade your corpse through the streets.


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## KingOfCheese

I thought Dark Eldar were getting redone 5 years ago, then 4 years ago, then 3 years ago, then 2 years ago, then last year....

The number of threads ive seen over the last 5 years saying "OMG DARK ELDAR THIS YEAR!!!11!!!one!!!!11" is rediculous lol.

Ill believe it when i have the new codex in my hands.


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## Blue Liger

Yeah I was told 2005/6 it would happen, I'll believe this one when i see though I know they will come out as Jes Goodwin had mentioned he was re-doing the model range completely


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## Sethis

I spoke to someone at GW HQ last Thursday who said that 1. Dark Eldar had been underway bfore, but got cancelled for an unspecified reason, 2. More or less every single model is going to be redone and 3. They are going to make Chaos and Necrons look like naughty five year olds in terms of evilness.

No time frame mentioned (and I wouldn't believe it if there was) but they are definitely being worked on.


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## fatboy955

its a shame that the Dark Eldar seem to be only suported by GW half-arsed i mean they have the potentional to be the most evil race in the galaxay but chaos seem to be the poster boys of evil. Here's hoping DE are coming out i only collect chaos to get my evil fix but when/if DE come out i will glady switch


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## CaptainFatty

Better be within 12 months. I have been drooling over the idea of DE redone for YEARS!!!

I'm probably their biggest fan. None of my mates think they are as evil as chaos. i'll show them...


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## Bindi Baji

necrons are a fair way off yet, at the very least a year,
I believe mat ward is doing the codex


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## Blue Liger

The scary fact is they are alot more evil than Chaos I mean they are responsible for the birth of one of the 4 Chaos gods and then to keep from being consumed by The One Who Thirsts they do unspeakable deeds to capture others souls and feed there own aswell. I do get the feeling when they return they will become poster boys of evil and therefore hopefully gain a large enough fan base to never see this side of neglect ever again (though I mean GW has given them the DE version of neglect - long and painful and you'll live through it till the last sec they want you too).


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

For some reason I am still skeptic about this one (wonder why....hmm), but if it do turn out to be true they better make them as badass as they truly deserve. Because, well c'mon, the only reason they aren't considered the most evil race in the galaxy is because they are so unpopular.

Seriously, chaos is neither good nor evil (it's chaotic. Go figure) and necrons just want to kill everything (like tyranids).
DE kills for fun and to save their own pale hides. And all DE fans know they do much more than just kill.

DE are waaaay more evil than all the other races. So GW, make it f***ing look like that! :threaten:
And crossed fingers that Gavin Thorpe won't be writing the codex this time.


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## MyI)arkness

Blue Liger said:


> The scary fact is they are alot more evil than Chaos I mean they are responsible for the birth of one of the 4 Chaos gods and then to keep from being consumed by The One Who Thirsts they do unspeakable deeds to capture others souls and feed there own aswell. I do get the feeling when they return they will become poster boys of evil and therefore hopefully gain a large enough fan base to never see this side of neglect ever again (though I mean GW has given them the DE version of neglect - long and painful and you'll live through it till the last sec they want you too).


You mean dark eldar? They are not evil at all. They are just killing humans/aliens with souls/other eldar to NOT DIE, its same like us going for a hunt in forest to get some food :grin: and their society might seem "evil" too, but actualy as a race who lacks resources and are constantly on the edge of survival - anything goes.


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## MaidenManiac

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> And crossed fingers that Gavin Thorpe won't be writing the codex this time.


Im quite sure he is fired from the dev team, as in he will never pollute the world again with an extremely poorly written codex:threaten:


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## Stephen_Newman

At least I am very hopeful that they may reveal if the harlequins perform in commorah (or something like that) and if so why are they not a viable choice for them to use in battle?


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## MidnightSun

The Warriors aren't getting redone, I asked what I could buy in anticipation for the new models for 'Crons and DE as I have the begginings of both armies, and the guy said Warriors (For both races) are staying the same. Raiders are *probably* not changing. Definitely new plastic Immortals, no news of Pariahs yet though. Archon, Incubi, Madrakes, Haemonculi and almost everything else (like Mandrakes, finally I can make Skarwael!) is getting remade. Possibly plastic Archon+Incubi as seperate sets.

All from a GW Employee.

Midnight


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon

I don't understand why you all hate Gav. I play Death Guard, and despise the new codex for its lack of fluff units and overall blandness, but what you are all overlooking is one simple fact. Yes, Thorpe wrote a crap-tastic codex, but remember that everything in a codex has to be approved by Papa Smurf himself, Jervis Johnson. And Jervis' massive boner for Spess Mehreens told him that the CSM dex needed to be bland and useless, because it was about BAD Spess Mehreens. Don't hate Gav. Yes, he could have made it fluffier, but Jervis is the man who truly raped the Chaos Marines, not Thorpe.


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## Judas Masias

InquisitorTidusSolomon said:


> but Jervis is the man who truly raped the Chaos Marines, not Thorpe.


Now i know why i feel like i've been violated.:shok: Dame you Jervis!!!unish:
LOL.


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## Stephen_Newman

The fact i that Jervis was not the head of codexes back then since he was head of the fanatic studio


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## bitsandkits

Judas Masias said:


> Now i know why i feel like i've been violated.:shok: Dame you Jervis!!!unish:
> LOL.


Dame you ??? you want Jervis to dress up as a woman of nobility ?thats sick :shok:


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## Marneus Calgar

I do hope its true, it would be nice to see DE get some loving.


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## Bindi Baji

MidnightSun said:


> The Warriors aren't getting redone, I asked what I could buy in anticipation for the new models for 'Crons and DE as I have the begginings of both armies, and the guy said Warriors (For both races) are staying the same


au contraire DE warriors are already redone


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## Warlock in Training

For anyone who read Dead Sky Black Sun / Ultramarine omnibus would know CSM and Daemons are preaty fuckin evil. DE are the most sadistic for sure, and I want to see their rules reflect that. Taking Prisoners would be a neat rule to apply somehow.


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## Cyklown

Well, I suppose it's a bit late to write a letter desperately pleaing GW to make dark/bright lances into ap1 weapons, then. 

So, who wants to bet that GW continues the current trend and releases appalingly ugly models and some impressive power jump, with clear-cut "this is better" and "this is teribad" units?

Or will they get, for lack of a better term, Phil'd?
Imagine if the top tier of good options (not broken, good) get nerfed to unusability and they get FOC-strangled back into the webway. I mean, we'd get gorgeous models. Except there'd be one or two ugly models that replaces previous good-looking models.

I mean, I have high hopes for DE. They are massively due for some loving, and the potential is huge... But anytime you're hoping from ugly models the future looks bleak, y'know?


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## Sethis

Regarding models being redone, I can see them *all* being redone, as they were last sculpted 15 years ago and are showing their age rather badly. Regarding the Raider, can I haz basic transport that doesn't take up all 3 layers of a GW carry case? Kkthxbai.


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## Stephen_Newman

I would love an actual dais of destruction model. In particular maybe regarding the slavers rule could be represented by allowing their movement for pursuing to be doubled and instead of the guys being dead they are actually captured. Although for simplicity's sake this does count as being dead-just more characterful


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## Blue Liger

Funny thing is is Gav Thorpe wrote the Dark Elves one and it was amazing - I think he just had one bad spill and now people hate him, also he won't be as he has retired from that area of GW for now


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## Col. Schafer

Generic dark eldar rumer!!!

I'll wait untill we get an incomeing to speculate.


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## bitsandkits

Slightly off topic but i believe GW broke chaos marines on purpose, i think they designed the codex to shift focus away from legions for a period of time so they can re look at them in the future, they stripped out the chaos deamons and made them generic and released a stand alone codex i think they will do the same down the line for the legions or some of them, im gonna go with dark eldar for the pre xmas sales period and necrons to kick start new year like the nids did this year.


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## Blue Liger

Warlock in Training said:


> For anyone who read Dead Sky Black Sun / Ultramarine omnibus would know CSM and Daemons are preaty fuckin evil. DE are the most sadistic for sure, and I want to see their rules reflect that. Taking Prisoners would be a neat rule to apply somehow.


They have the taking prisoners in thier rules it just became obselete in 5th you use to score VP's for them


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## Chainsaw Smiles

All I have to say is, if this rumor is indeed true, it's about time.


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## Masked Jackal

Well, they certainly have been 'working' on Dark Eldar for long enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they did announce the revamp this year, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Well, to be fair to Gavin, he did co-write the codex with Johnson. So whoever is to blame about the bad and good part of it I don't really know.
But if Johnson doesn't get a hold of his SM boner we might have to neuter him.
You know, for the sake of the game


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## Blue Liger

Correction Aaaaaaaaarrrgghh Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson wrote it with the addtional material coming from Phil Kelly and Andy Hoare - all 4 of them could be to blame!

And as I stated before Gav Thorpe did write the Dark Elves Army Book I believe!


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## Judas Masias

The CSM codex is ok but the only army that imho is any good is Death Guard. I don't say this because i play them but to me and alot of outher gamers i know they are the only compedative army list in the codex besides lashspam lists. Honestly I can't wate for the new God related codexs to come out so that Chaos God related armys will get some flavor for once. "Example: Death Guard every thing that has the mark of Nurgle has Feel No Pain and T5 i also think they should add Slow and Purposeful. Khorne Furious Charge +1 attack and fleet. Tzeentch 3+ inlv Slow and Purposeful Str 4 AP3 Bolters. Slaanesh +1I Rending and Fleet".


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## gabool

Stephen_Newman said:


> I would love an actual dais of destruction model.


 it has a model already http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat30056&prodId=prod1090229 the Asdrubael Vect model


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## Stephen_Newman

Wow I did not see that.

By the way I believe 1K sons got the best chaos marines codex what with 3+ save and 4+ invun save as well as those AP3 bolters


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## MyI)arkness

+1I and rending lol? How about atleast making combat drugs work, because they are on Every noise marine model and Lucius aswel. Maybe reduce the price too, the hell with 20 pts for +1I csm?


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## Natfka

Just to correct you imperial monkei. We dark eldar are not evil. In fact we are deeply concerned that the other races in the universe simply allow their souls to either be imprisoned (craftworld kin), or just let them go and further pollute our universe. We in fact are out to educate the populations of the universe, that no good soul should go to waste. Dark are we?, I think not. We simply dont believe polluting the universe with a multitude of souls. Be green, please recycle them souls.


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## Warlock in Training

Blue Liger said:


> They have the taking prisoners in thier rules it just became obselete in 5th you use to score VP's for them



Exactly, in 5th there is no way to really apply them for who won. If they could use it somehow. Like maybe all units that lose in comabt to the DE must pass their leadership and take saves equal to what you lost by, models are removed from the game. That way in CC if a unit failed its LD must make saves as well. Marines can lose additional troops if they failed the combat. You could take out Multi Wound creatures as well with ease. Fearless units will be more valued too. Might be too gamebreaking though...


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## Creon

I'd rather see a simple rule. on a 4+ prisoners are taken. This creates a new objective in the game for this unit. Just like Bjorn dying does. Or it could add wounds to the target unit usable for wound allocation "Wall of Flesh!" 

Since the DE are in Battle Missions, I have hope they will thrive and have a new 'dex Soon!


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## Cyklown

Nurgle? Slow an purposfull?

These guys aren't plague zombies, they're themothersporking Death Guard. Elite Infantry. They eschew heavy weapons for more specials because they're suppose not be tied down. Granted, moving and shooting plas would be cool, but...


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## Stephen_Newman

They are slow and purposeful because they just stride towards the enemy whilst absorbing heavy weapon fire like no tomorrow. They are not like the lithe slaaneshi units or bloodthirsy, maniacal khornate freaks.


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## Cyklown

Slow and purposefull means always moving as if they were moving through cover. I san see giving them relentless, maybe, and just never giving them any heavy weapon options at all (although that's really a potentially messy idea, I'll cover that lower), but I don't think you're properly apreciating the history of the Death Guard. We're talking about an elite infantry force by Space Marine standards. The whole point was that they didn't need vehicles, not that they were a tiny piece of god when in a rhino (seriously. slow and purposefull means that you never want to walk anywhere EVER but that you can move in a rhino and then have your plasmagunners pop their heads out of the firing point and fire 24".). Giving them a rule that says they will be a rhino upgrade that gives it two plasma guns but that they're utter crap the rest of the time would be bad news bears.


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## MaidenManiac

Bindi Baji said:


> au contraire DE warriors are already redone


For once I actually red the new WD (me and a buddy had a shopping run, and it was bought so he can ponder all the parts that comes in the Deff Dred kit and the Killa Kanz kit), and after flipping pages casually I got to standardbearer.
That whole article felt, to me, like it was written about those Dork Eldars that might pop out before Xmas now. Anyone else that has had the same feeling?


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

I am just going to ask why this had turned into a CSM whining thread?


Blue Liger said:


> Correction Aaaaaaaaarrrgghh Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson wrote it with the addtional material coming from Phil Kelly and Andy Hoare - all 4 of them could be to blame!
> 
> And as I stated before Gav Thorpe did write the Dark Elves Army Book I believe!


Ahh, right. Forgot that, thanks for reminding me. But I still think Phil Kelly is a good writer so let's ignore the fact that he might be to blame :wink:

And yes, Gavin did write the Dark Elves Armybook and while it's decent it is by no means amazing. It still suffers from lack of playtesting (like all books does) so a little too many things just aren't right.
Mostly because their armoury is chock full of overpowered and underpriced stuff it's almost isn't funny (but only almost . It's still the army I play so a little too good isn't bad)
And seriously, im certain Gav stated that the Rending Stars + Manbane combo in the book was not intentional. How could he miss that? The 2 things are on the same friggin page in the same entry! My god, if that isn't stupid I don't want to know what is.

Edit- Yes, I know I rant just as much as the CSM players, but I do like ranting. And if I can't rant about codex writers here then this thread is basically another "I'll believe I when I see" thread.


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## Cyklown

Well, it had damn well better be about the DE.

Even if it IS about the DE models, that particular Standard Bearer is still Jervis being a quite deliberate cock who likes flipping DE players the bird. I mean "lets show people examples of the new Dreads we've made, and talk about how making so many of them was such a wonderfull thing. Oh, and let's show a picture of THAT BRAND NEW OPEN TOPPED FAST SKIMMER TRANSPORT THAT SPACE MARINES GET. Hmm... well, let's also highlight the new termi's we've released. And then make an very strong commitment that "...we've barely scratched the surface of the exciting and origional things that we can make for space marines..." Right.

I mean, I realize that Jervis's a good guy and all, but that just makes seeing his smilling face and pictures of all the cool toys that Spayce Mannz have gotten next to an article about how lovingly they've been supporting their existing lines make me want to be sedated.


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## MaidenManiac

Cyklown said:


> Well, it had damn well better be about the DE....I mean, I realize that Jervis's a good guy and all, but that just makes seeing his smilling face and pictures of all the cool toys that Spayce Mannz have gotten next to an article about how lovingly they've been supporting their existing lines make me want to be sedated.


I was mostly actually pointing towards the whole "we have finally understood that folks do not like to have their whole collections made useless because the dev team cant stay on course" part, combined with the "we wont toss out a new army until we are able to keep all of those we already have in the game supported".
Further combined with the (classical) "we will redo all armies, but we wont redo them until we think the new models will do the army justice, even if that might take a long time" this seemed to be all about Dark Eldar to me:read:


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## KhainiteAssassin

MaidenManiac said:


> I was mostly actually pointing towards the whole "we have finally understood that folks do not like to have their whole collections made useless because the dev team cant stay on course" part, combined with the "we wont toss out a new army until we are able to keep all of those we already have in the game supported".
> Further combined with the (classical) "we will redo all armies, but we wont redo them until we think the new models will do the army justice, even if that might take a long time" this seemed to be all about Dark Eldar to me:read:


basically that says we will never see a new army and never see new dark eldar... lol


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## Masked Jackal

KhainiteAssassin said:


> basically that says we will never see a new army and never see new dark eldar... lol


Well, there could be a decade-long Loyalist project.


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## darklove

MaidenManiac said:


> Further combined with the (classical) "we will redo all armies, but we wont redo them until we think the new models will do the army justice, even if that might take a long time" this seemed to be all about Dark Eldar to me:read:


I have heard that one right from the horse's mouth, and it is so much rubbish. It is not even an excuse, it is that feeble. Essentially this is using quality control as a reason for output delays, and if that is the case then the whole development team should be fired on the spot! If designers and sculptors can't follow a brief, which includes in it something like 'make them look good, and NOT shit', then they are amateurs and should find another form of employment.

TBH it does not take a long time to make a model range that 'do an army justice'. It does take a long time for GW to get a big enough hard-on about an army that they will dig deep for new moulds, especially if every model is being redesigned.


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## Warlock in Training

Its a excuse, its better to say what he said then something along the lines "We want to remake the DE line, but the whole design team beeen working on DAs, SMs, SWs, BAs, soon BT, Nids, and we added more to Orks. I promise DE will be next... after we finish Inquisition, Tau, Necs, and CHAOS last. Then when 6th Ed comes out we will put out a 5th Ed CE with Models." That wouldnt go well with their Email boxes


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## Lord Sinkoran

i'll believe it when i see it


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## MyI)arkness

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> And seriously, im certain Gav stated that the Rending Stars + Manbane combo in the book was not intentional. How could he miss that? The 2 things are on the same friggin page in the same entry! My god, if that isn't stupid I don't want to know what is.


Wasnt Gav the guy who wrote somewhere that he likes things simplified because for example he could never remember the wehicle damage chart on a d6 xD


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## Warlock in Training

So hes too lazy to re read rules or try to consult Codexes, or look at his Army Build to remember what his guys are equip with? Asshole.....


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## MaidenManiac

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> And yes, Gavin did write the Dark Elves Armybook and while it's decent it is by no means amazing. It still suffers from lack of playtesting (like all books does) so a little too many things just aren't right.
> Mostly because their armoury is chock full of overpowered and underpriced stuff it's almost isn't funny (but only almost . It's still the army I play so a little too good isn't bad)
> And seriously, im certain Gav stated that the Rending Stars + Manbane combo in the book was not intentional. How could he miss that? The 2 things are on the same friggin page in the same entry! My god, if that isn't stupid I don't want to know what is...


Gav was also the guy that wrote the 3d ed Eldar Codex and fought a furious war against the gaming community claiming that the Rapelord (75 pts) was not overpowered and a lot worse then a SM Dread (75 pts) since it could be wounded by a Heavy Bolter.

Then he wrote the Craftworld Eldar codex that made them troops...

Gav also wrote the current CSM Codex which he also considers one of his top works with lots of good options and character. He did admit that the DP got a little too few options though.

He also wrote [/ramble]


Well, point is this: Gav has written a bunch of good things, but also an disproportional amount of crappy things compared to all other designers. And at the end of the day this fact still remains, he is not in the Dev team anymore:so_happy:


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## bakoren

I would enjoy a return of the spikey slavor pirate weirdo soulstealers.


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## TheKingElessar

I've been saying Necrons will be out in August 2010 for...well, I haven't been here much. But I first said it August last year. I also told you Nids would be out early 2010, but we kinda knew that already. I still say DE aren't going to be before mid-2011. Although, I expected BA to be next year as well.

EDIT: To address earlier posts - lack of playtesting isn't necessarily the problem. The Studio then have to actually LISTEN to what they're being told, and ACT on it...


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## Bindi Baji

TheKingElessar said:


> I've been saying Necrons will be out in August 2010 for...well, I haven't been here much.


necrons are nowhere near enough done to be this year, 12 months bare minimum


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## Stephen_Newman

To be honest doing the old dark eldar models justice is no reason for them to be not updated (following the standard bearer article) because it surely is not hard to improve on garbage!!. I personally believe that the article was meant for the inquisition-in particular the GK. I mean they look soooo good that they will be hard to top. I also hate that he then goes on about the space marines being so good since they are the ONLY army that gets regularly updated. I mean how hard is it to improve boxy, bloody power armor for crying out loud!!!


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## wretchedspawn

As awesome as it would be to get a new de codex in the near future id be content to wait a little longer just so they don't mess it up like the csm one.as for the models,they better be fantastic considering how long they have been suposadly working on them for(although I'll always have a soft spot for the warriors)


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## darklove

wretchedspawn said:


> As awesome as it would be to get a new de codex in the near future id be content to wait a little longer just so they don't mess it up like the csm one.as for the models,they better be fantastic considering how long they have been suposadly working on them for(although I'll always have a soft spot for the warriors)


If waiting a long time was a sign of quality then nothing would ever be delivered on time. The only thing that can really be inferred from a long wait is that GW don't think there is enough money in a new DE or Necron range to make it worth doing before lots of other things. Long wait = GW does not care (rather than them trying to do a good job). Short wait = this is something GW think a lot of people will buy (rather than them trying to do a good job).


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## Widowmaker666

It seems likely to me, GW finally re-did Space Wolves and Blood Angels so it seems likely that some of the other older chapters will get some love too.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Because all we need is more SM chapters......yes, I know i'm pessimistic and a whiner but it is my fully-fledged right to constantly complain about every single decision GW makes. I've practically paid for it.
Besides, skepticism have never hurt anyone.
And yay, Finally! No more Gavin. I guess I just missed his leave from developement.


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## MaidenManiac

Widowmaker666 said:


> It seems likely to me, GW finally re-did Space Wolves and Blood Angels so it seems likely that some of the other older *chapters? Codices?* will get some love too.


I assume that you ment Codices here, not chapters. This is a good point that all whiners and most others too fail to see just because they happen to be Space Marines :read:


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## Stephen_Newman

It must mean chapters and I am surprised that rumours of BT, DA and even maybe an Ultramarines codex to coincide with the film coming out are not flying around forums like these. Sadly because the space morons are indoctrined into every new player of the system they are used the most.


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## Bindi Baji

Stephen_Newman said:


> and even maybe an Ultramarines codex


there is already an ultramarine codex as the space marine codex itself is based on "force organisations used by the ultramarines space marine chapter"


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## hungryp

Bindi hit the nail on the head a few pages ago saying DE Warriors are already done. If new ones are coming soon, they'll pretty much have to be.

So many people think that this stuff magically appears overnight, like someone says, "here make this," and the next day they're rolling off the line. Doesn't happen. Take into account design time, sprue layout, tooling the molds, and actually getting them to a point where they can be released and there can be a good year or two lead time for a new model.

Take Planetstrike as an example. GW had bastions years before they were ever released. Don't believe it? Take a good look through your BRB.


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## Horacus

Hope dies last...well, we'll see.


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## Bindi Baji

Bindi Baji said:


> necrons are nowhere near enough done to be this year, 12 months bare minimum


it appears I may have been mistaken with the timescale (again)


no idea on the models but the codex is near finished


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## HorusReborn

this is all ridiculous to be honest. One guy told me, the other guy told me... blah blah blah. What some manager in a GW shop knows is about the same as us. They are useless for info, and have no secret mirror that tells them the inner workings of the hobby! The days of the hobby sure have changed with the kiddies who are trying and vying to be the one with the info. Face it everyone save the upper eschelon of GW knows the same as we do... Until there's a blurb of them and pics, or an email from GW telling us there's dark eldar and necrons comming... they aren't!


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## darklove

The GW design/development process takes exactly 12 months for a 40k codex once the go-ahead is given. This includes fluff development, model design, codex writing, marketing/comms, manufacture and shipping.
More codexes could be produced in the space of a year than are currently released, but the scheduling is down to marketing and balancing the workload of a fixed-size development team.
I would really not be surprised is Necrons don't get a new book until 6th ed., or just before, same goes for DE.


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## TheKingElessar

Bindi Baji said:


> it appears I may have been mistaken with the timescale (again)
> 
> 
> no idea on the models but the codex is near finished


Well, I was making assumptions regarding models, as I'm more concerned with rules. That said, plastic Flayed Ones are something I think everyone would like to see - the conversion possibilities are almost infinite!


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## Bindi Baji

darklove said:


> The GW design/development process takes exactly 12 months for a 40k codex once the go-ahead is given.


Exactly?, what a very strange thing to say, considering almost all codexes and army books have different amounts of work to do it's almost certainly 100% incorrect as well.

Deadlines are set but considering the problems some codexes and ranges have in design and balancing (not to mention reassigning, resignation, firing) then it's understandable that a fair share never hit the deadline.

Better that then dodgy unbalanced armies are released (ok, better that then "more" unbalanced armies :grin


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## PsychoXeno

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, I was making assumptions regarding models, as I'm more concerned with rules. That said, plastic Flayed Ones are something I think everyone would like to see - the conversion possibilities are almost infinite!



Plastic Immortals would be amazing as well.


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## Azkaellon

PsychoXeno said:


> Plastic Immortals would be amazing as well.


Yes which is why we will not get them, Instead necrons will receive plastic wraiths and tomb spiders. (And all necron players will die a little inside, my self included i want a necron lord box set damn it!)


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## darklove

Bindi Baji said:


> Exactly?, what a very strange thing to say, considering almost all codexes and army books have different amounts of work to do it's almost certainly 100% incorrect as well.
> 
> Deadlines are set but considering the problems some codexes and ranges have in design and balancing (not to mention reassigning, resignation, firing) then it's understandable that a fair share never hit the deadline.
> 
> Better that then dodgy unbalanced armies are released (ok, better that then "more" unbalanced armies :grin


Yes, it takes 12 months exactly. It isn't a strange thing to say, because it's true, but I can understand how it might seem that way if you don't know the process.


----------



## Bindi Baji

darklove said:


> Yes, it takes 12 months exactly. It isn't a strange thing to say


We know that DE have taken significantly longer for various reasons, 
GK were initially stalled due to a resignation last year, 
wolves were done in close to 10 months according to Phil Kelly at gamesday germany.
Skaven apparently ran over their alotted timescale as did tyranids

Now 12 months may well be the target, but it's far from exact.

right, i'm finished going off topic


----------



## darklove

Bindi Baji said:


> We know that DE have taken significantly longer for various reasons,
> GK were initially stalled due to a resignation last year,
> wolves were done in close to 10 months according to Phil Kelly at gamesday germany.
> Skaven apparently ran over their alotted timescale as did tyranids
> 
> Now 12 months may well be the target, but it's far from exact.
> 
> right, i'm finished going off topic


I know that, up to GD-UK 2009, no work was under way on DE.
I know that, as of GD-UK 2009, GK and SoB were being planned for their own books be not fully launched because of scheduling.
I know that Skaven are *NOT *40k.

I don't really care what your guesses are, GW's development is geared to a 12month cycle for a 40k codex. Just talk to any of the development team next time you meet them.


----------



## MidnightSun

I think that the Necrons will be brought out before DE, try and save a dying line rather than ressurrect a dead one (Groan!). Necrons being done first would make sense in other ways;

1.) Less models to remake, they already have great Warriors and a great Monolith and cool Destroyers.

2.) Less rules to remake. WBB is fine as it is, a defining feature of the race. After all, it's practically FNP but taken in the next turn.

3.) More possibilities for new Wargear options modelwise. It'd be great to see the 'Spider-like charm' (It's in the entry for Pylactery) hanging round a lords neck or emblazoned on his chestplate. Then lightning field could prove intersting, and all sorts of fun with a VoD. Be good to see nice new things for the Chrenometron, as both the Codexx, 5th Ed. and Dark Crusade all spat in it's face and stuck a boot up it.

Midnight


----------



## Purge the Heretic

darklove said:


> I know that, up to GD-UK 2009, no work was under way on DE.
> I know that, as of GD-UK 2009, GK and SoB were being planned for their own books be not fully launched because of scheduling.
> I know that Skaven are *NOT *40k.
> 
> I don't really care what your guesses are, GW's development is geared to a 12month cycle for a 40k codex. Just talk to any of the development team next time you meet them.


As of GD UK, Jes had already completed part(not all) of the model range for DE...according to the pie god.


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## TheKingElessar

MidnightSun:

WBB will categorically NOT be in the Codex. This has been confirmed MANY times.


----------



## Azkaellon

TheKingElessar said:


> MidnightSun:
> 
> WBB will categorically NOT be in the Codex. This has been confirmed MANY times.


Yup and it makes life as a necron player easier, Im thinking Res orb will give re-rolls for FNP which they should have instead. I am waiting to see if necron's get squad leaders, or if they leave warriors alone and just make them 16pts.


----------



## darklove

Lets be clear on this, current GW trends do *NOT *lean towards the adoption of USRs over army specific rules, the opposite is the case. We may all yet be surprised to find that WBB survives in future codexes. I don't mind either way, because they are bound to make it over powered which ever they go with. None of the Necron mechanics for the next codex are even going to be considered until, firstly, the fluff is updated (Jervis's top criterion before doing anything further on both DE and Necrons) and, secondly, after the fluff has been firmed up, the designing of any new models.


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## Nemesis-The-Warlock

darklove said:


> I know that, up to GD-UK 2009, no work was under way on DE.


eh?, WTF?, this goes against what Harry has said a few times and brimstone said something entirely different last year as well.
Not to mention that almost every reliable source in the known galaxy have had something similar to say




darklove said:


> I know that, as of GD-UK 2009, GK and SoB were being planned for their own books be not fully launched because of scheduling.


er, again harry has said something entirely different and brimstone spoke about GK last year on 'seer

So on the one hand we have some very reliable rumour givers (brimstone + harry) and one somewhat patchy but occasionally reliable source (bindi) on the other hand we have you contradicting them all.


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## darklove

I don't know Brimstone or Harry, but I have had conversation with the development guys about GK and SoB, and also talked about the development plans for DE and Necrons directly with Jervis. If you think your source is better then there is nothing forcing you to take any notice of what I have said (as with any and all comments on any forum).


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## TheKingElessar

FWIW - my various, and of varying quality, sources have told me that, after BA, we can expect either Necrons in August (Bindi says not so, models aren't done) or Inquisition, as the Codexes/models (DH/WH, not 'Crons) are no longer even available Direct...when stores run out, they run out. DE have been written at least once and rejected to be rewritten. Models at an indeterminate stage, but certainly not finished. DH/WH will NOT get their own Dexes, and WBB will NOT (be back.)

My sources also told me a Feb release for Nids and April for BA...but said Gaunts got free WoN, and Hormagaunts had the option...so make of my 'info' what you will. I would far sooner put my stock in people who remain anonymous than people who's job it is to lie and interest is to improve sales.


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## Azkaellon

darklove said:


> I don't know Brimstone or Harry, but I have had conversation with the development guys about GK and SoB, and also talked about the development plans for DE and Necrons directly with Jervis. If you think your source is better then there is nothing forcing you to take any notice of what I have said (as with any and all comments on any forum).


Hate to break it to ya...but Jervis is full of it and every single source that isnt has said different then you....So im tending to lean towards them.

(not to mention jervis has the IQ of an Ork chasing a red truck)


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## darklove

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Hate to break it to ya...but Jervis is full of it and every single source that isnt has said different then you....So im tending to lean towards them.
> 
> (not to mention jervis has the IQ of an Ork chasing a red truck)


whatever.

Every source was saying a DE codex to be out at the start of last year - where is it now? All the models were ready last spring? Bullshit. Every source has been wrong about everything DE or Necron for the last 3-4 years: fact.

smoke that.


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## TheKingElessar

Ah-ah-ah. _I_ said no such thing, about DE 'dex, or models.

We also don't know until August if I'm right about Necrons or not, be fair.


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## Warlock in Training

darklove said:


> smoke that.


Is it the good stuff? :crazy:


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## H0RRIDF0RM

I play both Necrons and Dark Eldar. I dont give a shit who comes out just dont make me continue to feel all of this regret for not playing Marines


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## Arcane

I think regardless of what comes out DE, Necrons and =I= players should sit down and have a drink together this summer. Unless of course Dark Angles or Black Templar get redone, in which case we should all storm our local GW and have a good ol fashioned lynchin.


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## Sloan13

Come on Arcane this is GW we are talking about, they love their Space Marines. You should just plan the lynching now. It will be a lot more fun and a great thread to read. 

I feel bad for all of you non-space marines, you could be waiting awhile.


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## Horacus

Sloan13 said:


> I feel bad for all of you non-space marines, you could be waiting awhile.


Well, at least chaos is not that hated...maybe in 2 years we can get a descent codex.


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## darklove

I think it is not impossible for Necrons or DE to have a codex out at the end of this year. My hope is that there will be something exciting to announce about a 40k army around GD-UK 2010 time, like with SW last year, but it could be one of several.


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## Bindi Baji

I personally wouldn't be surprised if WBB was tweaked, but I can't see it staying exactly as it is.....

On the subject of DE i'm now hearing October, which ties in with a few other comments, also it sounds like an altogether new "very nasty" vehicle will make it out with the new multi part warriors for the initial release


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## TheKingElessar

What's with the hate for Dark Angels (who have probably the second worst Codex, after Necrons) and Templars (who, while a lot more recent than DE, have quite an old Codex) ??

Just because they wear Power Armour, and the fluff tells you they are Marines, means nothing regarding playstyle.


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## Cyklown

TheKingElessar said:


> What's with the hate for Dark Angels (who have probably the second worst Codex, after Necrons) and Templars (who, while a lot more recent than DE, have quite an old Codex) ??
> 
> Just because they wear Power Armour, and the fluff tells you they are Marines, means nothing regarding playstyle.


Well, they have a viable counts-as codex (although telling someone that they should do so isn't something I'd do to their face, and I wouldn't consider that a justification to not fix them, just as a consolation prize as they sit there getting the shaft) and we're looking at, what 80% of all codii being loyalist/human and posthuman in nature.

It'd be lovely to see an army list from them that wasn't, say, appaling overcosted, underpowered and generally insulting. I'd certainly be fine with them getting a dex before Eldar. DE really, really ought to get love first, however. I mean, considering how unit releases are tied to codex releases, they deserve the range support and a codex that wasn't written for two and a half editions ago, y'know?

The Templar codex is old enough that it's showing up in used bookstores along with the origional Tau codex and the old BRBs and, say, the origional cityfight/Catachan codex/etc., but it's still quite solid. They're fast enough on foot that they can actually use 20-man squads in an army that gets rhinos, at least. Again, I'd put it on priority par with the Eldar, but if I did it'd get done five years sooner.


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## Stephen_Newman

This list could go on and on with what needs updating and what does not. Personally starting with the 6th ed rulebook they should place each army in a certain time period (marines 1 month after rule book is released and say eldar 4 months later) and repeat this with every new edition. In this way I see no obvious downsides and it keeps everyone relatively happy.


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## TheKingElessar

Not the shareholders! lol

You can't release 40k thing after 40k thing without fantasy interspersed, and you can't release armies closer together than about 5 months, to allow maximum purchasing by the customer.


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## Arcane

TheKingElessar said:


> What's with the hate for Dark Angels (who have probably the second worst Codex, after Necrons) and Templars (who, while a lot more recent than DE, have quite an old Codex) ??
> 
> Just because they wear Power Armour, and the fluff tells you they are Marines, means nothing regarding playstyle.


Who cares about playstyle? If every army in the game was just a variant of Space Marines that all fought against each other, I wouldn't play. 

I want different fluff, vehicles, tanks, guns, armor, models, genders, art styles and motives. 

How can army after army that are all males, all wear the same armor, all use generally the same guns, generally the same vehicles and all even look generally the same but with slight variations be interesting? Oh and of course each of these armies is more bad ass than the next and each codex must have it's HQ be even more badass with a higher toughness, higher strength and be able to shoot purple psycher shots out of his asshole.

I'm not saying such a thing wouldn't be popular, I'm saying it wouldn't interest me and a lot of other adults.


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## Cyklown

Arcane said:


> ...and be able to shoot purple psycher shots out of his asshole.


While the BA _do_ get access to that power I know that I for one will be requiring them to model that for the sake of WYSIWYG.


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## TheKingElessar

Arcane said:


> Who cares about playstyle? If every army in the game was just a variant of Space Marines that all fought against each other, I wouldn't play.
> 
> I want different fluff, vehicles, tanks, guns, armor, models, genders, art styles and motives.
> 
> How can army after army that are all males, all wear the same armor, all use generally the same guns, generally the same vehicles and all even look generally the same but with slight variations be interesting? Oh and of course each of these armies is more bad ass than the next and each codex must have it's HQ be even more badass with a higher toughness, higher strength and be able to shoot purple psycher shots out of his asshole.
> 
> I'm not saying such a thing wouldn't be popular, I'm saying it wouldn't interest me and a lot of other adults.


That would be: Different fluff, different vehicles (Baal Predator, Stormraven) different tanks (BA are Fast, except Raiders, which can DS - BT get PotMS on Predators), different Guns (BA have a 'Frag Cannon' SM a Conversion Beamer, SW have Living Lightning) different Armour (BA have Arti Armour on a squad, DA get crapper Storm Shields, BT get mixed armour saves) different models (DA, SW, BT and BA ALL have their own boxes) art styles (see the fluff) and motifs (again, this is just fluff)...

...To be honest, I don't understand why anyone would have a problem here. There are HUGE differences between SM Chapters that have different Codexes, and there could reasonably be far more than there are. Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Blood Ravens...they could all have their own Dex easily enough. [Yes, I know thanks.]


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## Cyklown

TheKingElessar said:


> Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Blood Ravens...they could all have their own Dex easily enough. [Yes, I know thanks.]


FFS man! Loose lips sink ships! They'll hear you!


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## VanitusMalus

TheKingElessar don't forget the Death Spectres.

In edition how do you guys feel about an individual using a codex for their own created race?


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## Cyklown

VanitusMalus said:


> TheKingElessar don't forget the Death Spectres.
> 
> In edition how do you guys feel about an individual using a codex for their own created race?


Is the modeling schweet? Do you have a decent fluff backing? Did you make sure that there's no modeling for advantage effect?


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## Arcane

Your right King Ellesar, they should just do Space Marines after Space Marines since they are sooo different. I mean, don't you play one of their variants? No? Well then you must play in one of the armies stuck in 3rd edition? No?... well shit. But of course it must not bug you playing a race that doesn't have a single god damned vagina in it. 

Go ahead and jump on the bandwagon that is happy they are doing yet another space marine release. The rest of us who play either Dark Eldar, Necrons or Inq will keep hoping for some consideration and have a valid reason for posting in this thread.


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## Cyklown

Well, orks spore, so of course they don't have primary sex characteristics. I'm pretty sure that Eldar _do_ ha- Wait, why the hell do I care about whether my little plastic people have vaginas? I mean shit, if it's such a big fucking deal I could always... take Vulcan, grab some admittedly utterly disgustingly expensive SoB figures and play a counts as list of firey doom if I really needed to see tits on my minis. I would find it very, very hard to avoid making the hammers not look like hammerspace-style perv-smackers, but that's because I read too much manga.

Mind you, I'm just some random dude who bitches nonstop about his precious space elves, who aren't even completely toast yet despite Phil's well-meaning attempts to prove to everyone that he wasn't biased toward Eldar, so I see where you're coming from...


_But you're missing his point._ They're different enough to warrant their own codii. Not "I'd like to see them make every human and posthuman possible before doing anything else". _That was it._


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## Arcane

Nah that's cool man, I like watching tv shows with just dudes or reading books just about dudes... I mean, fuck it, ignore half the whole population because it's just a game. 

Of course they deserve their own codex, but after 7 years and hundreds of dollars later I think myself and other players deserve a little product support.


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## Cyklown

Arcane said:


> Nah that's cool man, I like watching tv shows with just dudes or reading books just about dudes... I mean, fuck it, ignore half the whole population because it's just a game.
> 
> Of course they deserve their own codex, but after 7 years and hundreds of dollars later I think myself and other players deserve a little product support.


Well, there are armies that aren't quite so stratified. Tau don't "do" the secondary sexual characteristics the way mon-keigh do. Eldar... well there's that one bit in the DA and Guardian sprue... (alright, so that's a stretch), etc.

The things is, the SM have the warrior monk meme going on. That works one way. 12 year old boys dig the warrior monks, and. John Q investor doesn't give a shit about the hobby except for the way it trends; the lovable incompetents over at GW hq itself are beholden to the almighty stock value, y'know?. So... capitalism, while it doesn't actually give a shit, is going to follow the memes it needs to stick to to get rich. And the armies with female models are less bankable, even if it's simply because timmy says "lawl power armour".

And maybe it's just because I don't play them, but I'd personally be more appaled by the fact that the mini line was never fixed more so than the omfg dark ages of early 3rd codex.


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## Arcane

You don't need to inform me on the characteristics of the stock market and marketing, I have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in that cesspool. 

By mini line do you mean outdated minis or models that are bonkers? The codex and minis go hand in hand. If DE, Cron or =I= get a new dex they will get new minis. Solved.

Btw, sex sells my friend and if GW were smart, they would find a way to work with it in their model range. I am not saying change things, add it to SM, or cash in on OMG TITS! Just saying that using it to your advantage has and will sell games in the future (Bloodrayne/Tombraider?). 20 year old boys love da booty and they are the ones spending money. 

Making decent looking SoB (omg repentia mistress wtf) and DE could do wonders in sales.


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## darklove

They already do twisted sex models in the Daemonette range and the FW Keeper of Secrets... lots if rings through sensitive parts... It is probably too corrupting to be sexy in 40k, so SoB will have to dress like 80 year old nuns (which is what most of them are after all).


----------



## Arcane

So somehow this has been turned from someone saying DA and BT deserve codex's as much as DE, NC and =I=, to whether or not 40k has enough sex. 

Friggin awesome. :cray:


----------



## Warlock in Training

Listen, it all comes down to this. GW are fukin idiots and so are their share holders. If they are afraid that DE or SoB wont sell as well as the SMs becuase of models or fluff then they're idiots. I know of a guranteed way of making more money on SoB army then any SM dex. How? Simple. Make there dex OVERPOWERED! Models are nice and all but what ultimatly sells is what army will do best in the power/meta gaming that W40k is all about today. If they made SoB cheap as IG men, make Exorcist as destructive as getting rammed by Deff Rollas with AV 14 all around, make the Psy Powers of a Inquisitor the equal to any Eldrad, and allow the SoB blessed Bolt Guns wound on 2+/AP 2. This few changes here would see the SoB in a few months gracing the posters and movies of 40K instead of the Ultrasmurf.

Simple fact is any army can make money, GW is bias as most of the people their love Speece Mahreens, so thats what they aim to make the best.


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## Khorothis

Arcane said:


> So somehow this has been turned from someone saying DA and BT deserve codex's as much as DE, NC and =I=, to whether or not 40k has enough sex.
> 
> Friggin awesome. :cray:


Considering that the people who are reluctant to release proper female models are the exact same people who created a world where a god was born thanks to rabid space-elf intercourse on several dozen planets, it is no surprise that the players raise an eyebrow over this odd turn of events. Its not baseless to ask that they want armies that are related to this theme of said universe to propely represent it. In short: less hideous Daemonettes please. You know, one with a pretty yet scary face, long swirling hair, crab claws, D3+2 tits, long tongue and a decent figure. And plastic, with lots of bitz I can use to convert stuff.


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## TheKingElessar

Unpalatable as it is to so many of you, fluff is the biggest difference between ALL the following armies:

Grey Knights
SoBs
Necrons 
BTs
BAs
SWs
SMs
CSMs
DAs

If it looks like a MEQ, and it quacks like a MEQ...

Especially since we know there'll be only one Inq Codex, it's basically just another Marine Dex on the list.

Even so, there's surely no doubt that Necrons need a Codex as much as anyone.

Finally, I play SM, CSM, Eldar, Orks and IG. Two of those have female elements...but who gives a fuck? It matters not a jot to me what gender my models are, as long as they're sexy. Wait, what...?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Warlock in Training said:


> Listen, it all comes down to this. GW are fukin idiots and so are their share holders. If they are afraid that DE or SoB wont sell as well as the SMs becuase of models or fluff then they're idiots. I know of a guranteed way of making more money on SoB army then any SM dex. How? Simple. Make there dex OVERPOWERED!


that won't make people buy them, what it will do is upset an awful lot of long term customers, essentially it would be retail hari kari



TheKingElessar said:


> Especially since we know there'll be only one Inq Codex


where on earth do we know this from?


----------



## KingOfCheese

Is this thread still going?
Its all wishful thinking.

I just did a google search, there are hundreds of threads saying "OMG NEW DARK ELDAR MODELS ARE OUT!!! WILL BE THE FIRST CODEX RELEASED AFTER 5TH ED!!!".

There has been 5 codecies released since then, and there is still not even a hint of a reliable rumour to back up the possible release of a codex in the near future.

I think everyone should be assuming that Dark Eldar and Necrons are NEVER going to get an update. Lets face it, GW makes bugger all money from them.

One day in the far future when (if) *GAMES WORKSHOP OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCE* that a new codex *HAS BEEN PRINTED* and their models *CAN ACTUALLY BE PRE-ORDERED*, then we can start believing.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Bindi Baji said:


> where on earth do we know this from?


Well, I don't remember the initial source, but I believe it was something Jervis said. Frankly, I don't think that the Inquisitorial Forces WARRANT a Codex each, and it increases the turnaround times on the other Dexes. It causes a staggered release, which is easier on the model design, sure...but separating them causes the problem of people bitching, too (why Grey Knights, just because their army is shitter? My Sisters are just as outdated, if still competitive!!!)
There's no real demand for Deathwatch, as far as I can tell...but it's unfair to omit them, as it is for the Arbites...but I just loved the Arbites in 2nd, maybe that's just me.
And, GW make much less profit on Books than the mainstay products.

That said...if you're telling me they aren't, as far as you know, going to be only one Dex, I'll accept it. I'll just be disappointed.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Bindi Baji said:


> that won't make people buy them, what it will do is upset an awful lot of long term customers, essentially it would be retail hari kari


Yeah, since Orks have the best and most competitive builds. Since CSMs have hit a all time low with its dex, and yes it is still a BIG deal for CSM players. Also since 5th, starting with SWs, their is the proof of Bandwagoning. As soon as the coolest Dex comes out with the best Powercreep, people run for it or will use thier existing armies as count as to do better in the competitions. How does this upset anyone? Its crazy to be sure, but it happens with every new 5th dex. Powercreep makes for the best armies, and Bandwagons sell. GW see this and encourage it. Fact.


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, I don't remember the initial source, but I believe it was something Jervis said.


the only comment from jervis in regards to the combined inquistion rumor I can find or recall was from games day uk 08 where he replied to a question about this
"the combined inquisition rumour is pure fanwank, it was started on a web forum"
he went on to talk about SOB's deserving their own codex, and saying deathwatch will be one day visited, but before they even began another army for 40k there were several codexes that desperately needed updating.

Now whilst that was 18 ish months ago, an impending codex should soon clear things up in some ways at least


----------



## Bindi Baji

Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah, since Orks have the best and most competitive builds. Since CSMs have hit a all time low with its dex, and yes it is still a BIG deal for CSM players. Also since 5th, starting with SWs, their is the proof of Bandwagoning. As soon as the coolest Dex comes out with the best Powercreep, people run for it or will use thier existing armies as count as to do better in the competitions. How does this upset anyone? Its crazy to be sure, but it happens with every new 5th dex. Powercreep makes for the best armies, and Bandwagons sell. GW see this and encourage it. Fact.


Powercreep is vastly exaggerated most of the time,
making an army overpowered according to you would mean it sells much better then other armies,
so do orks sell vastly more models now then they did in the past?


----------



## TheKingElessar

I hope that was sarcasm. Orks are crap.


----------



## Cyklown

Well, I'm perfectly willing to beleive that you understand the sickness that is publicly traded companies more than I do. I'll still harp on it whenever I talk about release schedules that make money but hurt the game.

Outdated minis? Completely bonkers? Why yes. There are some appaling minis, and all of the mini's are getting outdated. Every new release raises the standards for what I expect from minis, and the DE get no love. A codex release would fix this, I agree... except for Aquila armies get all sorts of love even when they have nothing coming out.

As for sex selling... yeah, fuck that. While I have no problem with it as a market force, playing to that would be just as appaling, if not more, as the fact that in a world where one major power is an extremely conservative force with Space Warrior Monk forces, one race doesn't have secondary sexual characteristics and everyone else desperately needs new models that aren't 5+ years old. I mean, the latter is understandable. The former is vile.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Bindi Baji said:


> Powercreep is vastly exaggerated most of the time,
> making an army overpowered according to you would mean it sells much better then other armies,
> so do orks sell vastly more models now then they did in the past?


Really? So those Nid players with their Tervigons, Doom of Malanti, Trygon primes, and Swarm lords of awsomeness is weaker than their last dex? :nono:

How about comparing the 3rd SW Dex to its new one. Are they still the same in "power" or gameplay. I guess the Thunder Wolves are weak, I guess Rune Priest are worse now. :no:

Now lets look at the BAs, so I guess according to you the PDF version was tourny winning huh? :laugh:

Power Creep.....FACT. Band Wagoning.... FACT. Money for GW through sales of Power creep and peoples Bandwagoning as a result of it.... fact.



TheKingElessar said:


> I hope that was sarcasm. Orks are crap.


I hope thats Sarcasm. :grin: Between their Deff Rolla scare, 5+ CS Saving Meks, Green Tide (a swarm build that works, holy shit!), and Nob Bikers you have one of the top tier Armies with mutiple builds that work well. Their dex is fun and awsome.


----------



## TheKingElessar

WiT - Seriously?
First:
This Nid Codex is better than the last. In 5th. The last one was far FAR more broken upon release - it had 6 Carnifexes, and 2 Tyrants per list. And those units were GOOD then! The Doom of Malantai, in particular, is crap, because it hasn't got Eternal Warriors. Oh no, a Missile Launcher - I'm dead.

The 3rd Ed Wolf Dex was pretty damn solid. This one's better, overall as well as in 5th, but last one was okay, just a little underpowered because of its age.

The BA PDF in fact DID create tourny-winning lists, Jawaballs is well known for winning frequently with his mediocre but beautifully painted army.

Big Meks - a KFF on Infantry is utter bollocks - see Conceal for reference. Green Tide can't kill a fucking tank (quickly), never mind the 5+ you should have in your army. Nob Bikers are overrated, and, while a great unit within their Dex, and a decent one anyway, cannot stand against other CC specialists from actual 5th Edition Dexes - eg Death Company or TH/SS Termies. Or, indeed, the Swarmlord. 

As for Deff Rollas - I always played that they work on vehicles, and my 10k (ish) of Orks hasn't left the Carrier Cases for over a year. That's not JUST because Eldar are better - it's because my local opponents had almost caught up to the Orks' one-dimensional playstyle, and I prefer to win my games.


----------



## Bindi Baji

TheKingElessar said:


> I hope that was sarcasm. Orks are crap.


I was only replying to warlock's point, but orks can have some great builds



Warlock in Training said:


> Really? So those Nid players with their Tervigons, Doom of Malanti, Trygon primes, and Swarm lords of awsomeness is weaker than their last dex? :nono:


all you need do is check forums for ridiculous amounts of threads with names like


> the problems with the new nids codex


 and


> tyranids codex - what were they thinking?


 to realise that a good few nids players have different opinions.
it's the same with a majority of codexes.

The main reason new codexes are more powerful then the previous edition = 
because the previous codex was at a disadvantage due to rule changes or problems in the previous editions.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I would draw the line for Orks at 'They have 2 or 3 mid-level builds.' Because most of us here in the UK play stupidly low points values, like 1500, we have inflated views of Orks and Chaos. At anything above that level they get proportionally weaker and weaker. My standard is 1750 and I find lower points to be painfully restrictive - there's no room for tactical play, it's just a game of 40k chicken.


----------



## Blue Liger

Agree with TKE above post I find all these top tiering armies bar really eldar start to die off at higher points than 1500 - the reason for this is the build and choice for options in competitive play becomes repeat units of what's there already but with other armies it becomes oh I can now take 3 heavy support choices or 2 Hq's or that extra CC elite squad, alot of other armies with 1750pts or 1850pts (I usually play this amount) gives them the broader scope of units to play with and therefore variety of competitive units


----------



## VanitusMalus

I've always enjoyed higher point games (2,000+), especially ridiculously high points games with multiple players (this is before Apoc as I haven't play Apoc yet). Anyway I find in higher points tactics can become really interesting because you can literally make teams of units to handle different objectives on the battlefield.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Orks are crap.


Nonsense, they're fungus.


----------



## Khorothis

I think that the power level of any Codex is not just the one it has in itself but the one it has in a given context called LGS. For instance, I only played against Eldar once (educational match that was), never came across Sisters, Daemons, GKs, and Dark Eldar, I've never lost a game to a Tau player (no offense or anything, I'm just saying the truth here), I do okay against Necrons (though the WBB is bullshit), the rest (IG, SM, SW, 'nids) tend to be either barely won massacres or desperate fights to the death where I try to take with me as much of the opposing force as possible. 
As you can see my opponents are comprised mainly of 5th ed armies and the players are either veterans or at the very least good. I've only won one match against IG where the guy was testing a completely different strategy (though its been ages since I played with the guy so it might be different this time); SW kept loosing 'till my friend got the hang of his army (Long Fangs are the SW Obliterators: obligatory) and then I just kept getting owned like a Guardsmen facing a Carnifex (oh and Thunderwolves are ridiculously effective, you just need the right setup and they'll WTFPWN infantry no problem); the games I played against SM were unfortunate because the guy I played with was an old veteran (guess what happened ); and I have yet to win against the new nids.

So whats that about power creep not existing? Allow me to call bullshit. All the new Codexes pay less for considerably better units. Quick comparisons: Abaddon vs. Logan Grimnar (or any CSM hero vs any SW hero; notice the difference in the amount of characters with EW), Havocs vs. Long Fangs, vanilla CSM vs Grey Hunters, Sorcerers (and DPs from a spell casting perspective) vs Rune Priests/Librarians/Zoanthropes/Hive Tyrants/etc... and the list goes on. Very often I can't even set up a comparison: Swarmlord, Hive Guard, Drop/Snot Pods, Psychic Hood/Shadow In The Warp... again the list goes on. And yeah I'm crying with my über Lash and Plague Marines and Berzerkers and Obliterators. Especially the higher point games we play the more I tend to loose. I tend to decline 1500+ games if possible.
[/rant][/cry]


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

TheKingElessar said:


> WiT - Seriously?
> First:
> This Nid Codex is better than the last. In 5th. The last one was far FAR more broken upon release - it had 6 Carnifexes, and 2 Tyrants per list. And those units were GOOD then! The Doom of Malantai, in particular, is crap, because it hasn't got Eternal Warriors. Oh no, a Missile Launcher - I'm dead.


I plan on trying out the Doom of Malantai' as a distraction. Its 'reputation' should boost its effectiveness in what I want it to do lol.

As for what you were saying about not playing with Nids, I drew the same conslusions as you about Zoanthropes, Hive Guard and Hive Tyrants. I've played with Hive Guard and found they are better than the kick-arse I though they would be. 



TheKingElessar said:


> I would draw the line for Orks at 'They have 2 or 3 mid-level builds.' Because most of us here in the UK play stupidly low points values, like 1500, we have inflated views of Orks and Chaos. At anything above that level they get proportionally weaker and weaker. My standard is 1750 and I find lower points to be painfully restrictive - there's no room for tactical play, it's just a game of 40k chicken.


I still wouldn't say Orks are _crap_. They are a good army, but nessacarily the best. I really think most armies can be used to win games. Sure some codicies may be better than others, but they can still be used to win. Also, while there may be some really hands-down good units in a Dex, doesn't mean the rest of the army is useless. Of course there are sub-par units, but a lot of them do have uses. Then there are things like Chaos Spawn


----------



## Winterous

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Then there are things like Chaos Spawn


And Pyrovores.
They have their use, and are quite good for their use, but it's not a situation you can rely upon to happen.


----------



## KingOfCheese

All cheesy lists do is change the game from _*flipping a coin*_ to playing _*rock-paper-scissors*_.


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

i know i'm going of on a tangent, but...it was mentioned earlier of rumours/wishes/hopes of Eldar being redone. Though it is not imminent for a new Eldar Codex any time soon in hindsight, i found it interesting to notice in the GW Astronomican section for December 09, that the last two articles published were on;

29 Dec: Painting and Assembling Dire Avengers; http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=4400107a
and
30 Dec: Eldar: Eldar Tactics; http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=4600008a

considering there was nothing really released in December to do with Eldar, in hindsight that's an intriguing bit of info, both articles aren't PDF WD articles, they are both by Adam Troke on Eldar, during an non-related Eldar month.

just a thought though

cheers

WKG


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Winterous said:


> And Pyrovores.
> They have their use, and are quite good for their use, but it's not a situation you can rely upon to happen.


No, Spawn are on their own level completely.

Pyrovores at least have a use other than dieing, even if its a one-in-a-million role


----------



## Winterous

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> No, Spawn are on their own level completely.
> 
> Pyrovores at least have a use other than dieing, even if its a one-in-a-million role


Well, scorching infantry isn't exactly an uncommon role, it's just a role that really doesn't need to be filled.
Them exploding really has no solid place in the rules, I'm guessing it's just there for flavour and as a slight kick in the nuts to fist spamming Marine armies.


----------



## darklove

@Khorothis: I agree that there is some element of power-creep, but there are also power variations between the different armies anyway. Necrons are rubbish at low point levels, but are almost unstoppable past 2,000pts - a result of expensive core units taking up the bulk of any list in 500pt-1,500pt games. Eldar on the other hand start to lose out in higher point games but excel in low to mid-level games.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I said Eldar are crap below 1750 - Our tanks are twice as much as they should be.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Pyrovores at least have a use other than dieing, even if its a one-in-a-million role


mine makes a rather terrifying looking paperweight


----------



## Cyklown

TheKingElessar said:


> I said Eldar are crap below 1750 - Our tanks are twice as much as they should be.


Just because Tau pay 165 points for a freaktardedly mobile move and shoot a10ap1 shot/s6 large blast templates and we pay 320 (plus two HS slots!)if we want the same level of killyness... and at the same time Tau are not getting a particularly good deal on their tanks as is.

If the BA dex is any indication about tanks being put in fast attack, I'd love to see, say, falcons going to fast attack. Or... cheaper star engines with any nondedicated vehicle with them becoming fast attack. *shrugs*

It'd give eldar flexibility with mech lists. Hell, at high points values we could go combined arms instead of mech infantry with support. And it's not like, say, making those things troops choices.


----------



## Sethis

TheKingElessar said:


> I said Eldar are crap below 1750 - Our tanks are twice as much as they should be.


What the hell are you talking about? I'm extremely happy with my 190pt Falcon (Bright lance) that's a damn sight harder to kill than a Land Raider.

Fire Prisms are also 150pts of pure win.

I'd like to see your rationale for making them 95 and 75 points apiece including holofields... The problem with Eldar as they stand lies anywhere but in their tank selection. The only problem (and it's a small one) is that they are both heavy support, so you can only have 1 Falcon if you want a pair of Prisms.

Eldar are fine until you drop below 1000pts.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just found this on warseer:



> Hello, I can't start a thread.
> 
> I have some information regarding the development of a Necron codex. I do not normally come on Warseer, but thought you would appreciate this information – hence the small number of posts. You have no reason to put faith in me – and I am not prepared to prove my validity at potential detriment to my career. I do not want to specify my exact employment with Games Workshop for this reason.
> 
> Necrons have completed the initial concept phase of their line expansion. Release schedule is currently for January 2011.
> 
> This conceptual phase has been stop-start for some time – it is a product range that has massive potential, and Games Workshop have been very uncertain of the most lucrative theme by which to capitalise on its fanbase. The development is considered a high-risk investment – a commitment problem that the team is well aware of, and is exacerbated by there being multiple such high-risk line expansions currently being pursued.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 multi-part plastic kits have been finalised as:
> 
> - Immortals
> - Spyders
> - The Necromancer
> 
> 
> Immortals are on a large (35mm) base; they are redesigned as larger, bulkier and more dynamic.
> 
> Spyders have 3 different builds
> 
> The Necromancer is the central sell of the line expansion and has been the focus of much of the early design process. It has been through several incarnations (and names), but is essentially of the same principle as the Bone Giant for the Warhammer Fantasy range. It has a mechanised skeletal torso housing a suspended crystal, and will likely have a choice between two horrific weapons.
> 
> 
> That is all the information I can disclose. I will not post any more.
> 
> I would like to add that development staff are getting very frustrated by headquarters’ increasingly tyrannical policies – within and between departments – with regards to information restriction. It’s absurd, and unnecessary.


Here's the link:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249667


----------



## Bindi Baji

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just found this on warseer:


some of this sounds very on the ball


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Can someone who plays fantasy elaborate on the "functions like a Bone Giant" portion. I don't play fantasy so that reference does nothing for me.


----------



## Inquisitor Aurelius

It doesn't "function as a Bone Giant"; it's "of the same _principle_ as the Bone Giant". Essentially I would take this to mean it's very large and scary and skeletal-looking.

At least I _hope_ that's what it means - the alternative being that it's very impressive-looking, but mechanically a nonstarter.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I believe 'principle' would refer to it's function in the list being similar. Think, perhaps, an Ironclad, although that's a poor comparison in truth. Strange, I don't recall my source divulging anything on 'Necromancers' off the top of my head...luckily, I made notes, being clever and such. 

I'll let you know if I come across something.


----------



## Winterous

> Release schedule is currently for January 2011.


That's the most important thing I just read.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

This doesn't sound right. GW working on a non-SM army? I'm confused. I thought Spess Mahreens were the only race in Marinehammer 40,000?


----------



## Horacus

Well, those sounds nice. If they release that, then I'll play them for sure. Also, the dark eldar need some love...and chaos needs a new codex, but that can wait 2 years or so.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Im glad Necs are getting love, I think DE deserve it as much. I think Inquisition should be combined WH/DH with little changes. DAs could use a quick PDF change to go with their book, you know, like SSs give 3+ save instead 4+. Then make a Legion Specific CSM Dex instead redoing the whole damn thing. Hell take most from CSM 3.5 Dex and use those rules as legal current ones again. Then BT, Tau, and Eldar can be redone for 5th.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Edit: Double Post.


----------



## MyI)arkness

Horacus said:


> Well, those sounds nice. If they release that, then I'll play them for sure. Also, the dark eldar need some love...and chaos needs a new codex, but that can wait 2 years or so.


I actualy would want CSM dex as late as possible, because if gw can do similar thing like with nids - making the most popular units useless, then i would have to scrap my 9 obliterators and buy the units that would become more useful, just so gw can sell more shit 

I just hope de comes out soon ;[


----------



## Winterous

MyI)arkness said:


> I actualy would want CSM dex as late as possible, because if gw can do similar thing like with nids - making the most popular units useless, then i would have to scrap my 9 obliterators and buy the units that would become more useful, just so gw can sell more shit
> 
> I just hope de comes out soon ;[


How are the most popular Nid units useless?
Carnifexes got a huge buff in exchange for their point increase, in addition to the ability to Deep Strike.
Hive Tyrants got some great new powers, asserting them as a leader of the fleet instead of just a monster. And hell, you're encouraged a lot to take them, because their powers are so good.
Biovores (a very liked unit) are great now, and not utter shite.
Gargoyles and Raveners both got huge buffs, Genestealers may have been changed, but mostly for the better, Gaunts and Hormagaunts both got buffed a lot.

In fact, I don't think there's a single pre-existing unit that ended up less viable, except for _maybe_ Carnifexes, and that's only in contrast, not absolute; meaning there's just better choices for a lot of things.


----------



## MyI)arkness

Winterous said:


> How are the most popular Nid units useless?
> Carnifexes got a huge buff in exchange for their point increase, in addition to the ability to Deep Strike.
> Hive Tyrants got some great new powers, asserting them as a leader of the fleet instead of just a monster. And hell, you're encouraged a lot to take them, because their powers are so good.
> Biovores (a very liked unit) are great now, and not utter shite.
> Gargoyles and Raveners both got huge buffs, Genestealers may have been changed, but mostly for the better, Gaunts and Hormagaunts both got buffed a lot.
> 
> In fact, I don't think there's a single pre-existing unit that ended up less viable, except for _maybe_ Carnifexes, and that's only in contrast, not absolute; meaning there's just better choices for a lot of things.


Which makes carnifexes useless basicaly..also carnifexes were probably the most popular model, along with genestealers or smth They didnt have to buy alot of hive tyrant models anyway, maybe now they would need new ones if they got some new upgrades, or atleast bits for them. Gargoiles, biovores were pretty much useless, so gw buffed them up and actualy get to sell them now, same for the small critters (i bet gw had warehouses FULL of unsold gaunts), so they might just do the same with chaos, because just like 4th nid codex, chaos has some units that are very good in the codex, and alot not worth taking, so logicaly gw would buff the bad ones, nerf the most popular ones and empty those warehouses


----------



## Winterous

MyI)arkness said:


> Which makes carnifexes useless basicaly.


They're not useless, they just need a list built with them in mind.
Hell, I'll still be taking them over Trygons, I don't really like Trygons too much, but I do like Mawlocks.


And off topic, is it just me, or have a lot of the animated GIFs from the site gone buggy?
Like a few emotes, and those wavy flags.


----------



## TheKingElessar

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> This doesn't sound right. GW working on a non-SM army? I'm confused. I thought Spess Mahreens were the only race in Marinehammer 40,000?


???? Necrons are just metal Space Marines anyway.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

TheKingElessar said:


> Necrons are just metal Space Marines anyway.


Nope, they're mechanical, Egyptian, zombie-skeletons. You have robots and zombies, two things that makes nerds orgasm. If the 'crons were dressed in pirate outfits I think the world may end.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sure, but rules-wise, they're just metal marines. Fluff is clearly irrelevant, or else three'd be no problem with there being 5 Marine Dexes (or however many it is - I can't be arsed counting.)


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Nope, they're mechanical, Egyptian, zombie-skeletons. You have robots and zombies, two things that makes nerds orgasm. If the 'crons were dressed in *ninja* outfits I think the world may end.


Fixed 

This whole _Necromancer _thing sounds cool, but I think they could have put just a wee bit more effort in for the thing's name.


----------



## TheKingElessar

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Nope, they're mechanical, Egyptian, zombie-skeletons. You have robots and zombies, two things that makes nerds orgasm. If the 'crons were dressed in ninja pirate outfits I think the world may end.


I think you'll find the Apocalypse is contingent upon BOTH conditions being met.


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon

TheKingElessar said:


> I think you'll find the Apocalypse is contingent upon BOTH conditions being met.


Yes, of course. My mistake.


----------



## Masked Jackal

InquisitorTidusSolomon said:


> Fixed
> 
> This whole _Necromancer _thing sounds cool, but I think they could have put just a wee bit more effort in for the thing's name.


Didn't the rumour say that they went through several name-changes? Perhaps they tried but just couldn't come up with anything better than decent-sounding. XD


----------



## MaidenManiac

Winterous said:


> And off topic, is it just me, or have a lot of the animated GIFs from the site gone buggy?
> Like a few emotes, and those wavy flags.


Did you recently DL Firefox 3.6?
Go to Technical Help and look in the thread I started there if yes...



Back on topic:
The part I found the most important part of the post MadCowCrazy posted is this one:


> and is exacerbated by there being multiple such high-risk line expansions currently being pursued.


Which to me sounds more like non SM love, since SM clearly is on the safe side as expansions. With a bit of luck the dev team just might hold true to the word of updating the "old" books soon 

Necrons in Jan 2011 sounds sweet, and would be even more sweet if they followed GKs (autumn) and DE (nov-ish):good:


----------



## MadCowCrazy

http://dicelikethunder.com/
Episode 81, around 26:00 they talk about some Dark Eldar rules.


----------



## Winterous

MadCowCrazy said:


> http://dicelikethunder.com/
> Episode 81, around 26:00 they talk about some Dark Eldar rules.


Like da sound of dem bikes.
Also fucking epic, Dark Eldar are practically CONFIRMED as next


----------



## Cyklown

Now we start ramping up expectations:

::growly::If Dark Lances aren't AP1 there will be a sudden surplus in one-eyed games-devs. Quite possibly devs for completely different games. I shan't be picky, but I shall be bloody.

::sweetly:: If Dark lances are s9 ap1 lances I'll stop complaining about GW and their imperiocentricism for _at least _a week. Maybe more like a month!


----------



## TheKingElessar

If Dark Lances are S9 AP1 then I mothball my Ulthwe.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> If Dark Lances are S9 AP1 then I mothball my Ulthwe.


Umm, mothball?


----------



## Col. Schafer

Winterous said:


> Umm, mothball?


as in get rid off, or leave to rot (in reference to keeping moths off old packed away cloths with "mothballs")


----------



## Sethis

Yes, but only temporarily until Eldar get a new Dex. There's no way that a DE Lance and a Craftworld Lance will have different profiles.


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> Yes, but only temporarily until Eldar get a new Dex. There's no way that a DE Lance and a Craftworld Lance will have different profiles.


Even though they use different technologies.
One is a dark matter ray, or some bullshit, and the other is just a laser.
I mean COME ON, just give them a modified version of the same thing!


----------



## Blue Liger

I do think that lance technology should be at least AP1 I mean it already ignores FNP and most armour and has the reduce armour arting on vehicles it would just mean that S8 shots would work better on killing vehicles which it already does a fine job mind you and DE can spam them - I would actaully prefer it if they kept only few heavy weapons aka the DL and Dissy and maybe add in say a DE version of the starcannon - the black hole cannon anyone?, anyways I say this as in hopes that the DL sapm will still be a key feature of DE as it is one of the play styles that make DE well... DE


----------



## MaidenManiac

S9AP1 Lances?

Good luck....


----------



## Sethis

I think AP1 is good enough. S9 is too much, it'd price them out of the niche that they currently take up.

And for DE I'd like to see more Psychological based weaponry, such as small blast grenade launcher style things and if any casualties are taken, they automatically become pinned, regardless of Fearless, Mob Rule or Synapse. Or alternatively they must make an immediate fall back move and rally as normal.

Something to make them stand out from the crowd, anyway. Lance spam is hardly worthy of being "codex defining".


----------



## TheKingElessar

I'd love an Auto-Pin weapon in the game, it's a much underexploited mechanic (because Ld tests are too unlikely to fail.)


----------



## Underground Heretic

Maybe at some negative modifier (-3 or 4), but I'd be against an auto-pin weapon. DE are supposed to be terrifying, but then SM are supposed to "know no fear," and most armies are at least supposed to have some courage. Tau and guard I can see chickening out as soon as the DE show up, but most armies would at least give a solid fight.

On a side note, perhaps they could make some rule for the dark kin and their craftworld kin similar to the Dark Elves' Hatred rule. IIRC it's re roll to hit in the first round of CC against anyone and always re roll against one army, probably each other or units with the mark of Slannesh. Just my two cents.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I see your point, but Pinning is supposed to be distinct from fleeing - it's about sheltering from insurmountable enemy fire, waiting for support before trying to take on an entrenched sniper, etc. In that regard, something akin to Hallucinogen Grenades that instilled nightmarish visions that halted an enemy advance in it's tracks would be very palatable.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Maybe some compromise, combining elements of Paroxism and the Tremor rule for the Thunderfire Cannon: the unit can only move d6 inches in any phase during the next turn and is reduced to one half of their native WS and BS until the beginning of the next DE turn. That would cover the idea of hallucinations, possibly able to fight through but very disorienting.


----------



## TheKingElessar

An adequate compromise, though I prefer rules to be more streamlined where possible. A simple -4 Pinning would suffice for me, because it's simple.


----------



## Sethis

The main issue I have at the moment is simply that armies that have had traditionally terrible leadership (which could be exploited by a canny player - while not making the army underpowered) are now functionally fearless across the board. You have to kill 20 Orks just to cause any leadership based checks at all, and I can't remember the last time a Nid player had Gaunts that weren't Fearless, even with me TRYING to take out the Synapse creatures.

I'd just like to see Psychology take some part in the game again, rather than it only mattering when determining how many Fearless wounds you need to take. DE and Necrons are the two armies most likely to be based around this theme, and I think DE could do it better, both in terms of tactical uses of weaponry and fluffwise.

I like the idea of DE being able to circumvent tarpit/elite units through clever use of pinning and morale checks and striking where the enemy is weakest. It plays directly into their style of warfare and would be in line with codex creep without being totally OP. It just needs a mechanic that works against Horde.

I'd much rather see that than simply charge 10 Wyches into 30 Orks and win by having a ridiculous number of attacks. Keep the profiles within the boundaries of reality (relatively speaking) unlike what they've done with Mephiston, and they'll be a much more interesting army to play!


----------



## TheKingElessar

That's why I postulate auto-fail. It bypasses Fearless.


----------



## Sethis

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just speculating about possible "new tricks" for the codex, as "Ld test with X modifier" has already been done, as has "Ld test using X dice". DE would be a good and logical place to put "Ld test auto-fail, regardless of Fearless".

However it would need to be worded precisely to avoid the stupid rules interpretations that have blighted recent codicies, as if I remember correctly, the BRB says Fearless units "automatically pass all morale checks that they are called upon to make" so unless the codex is very clear, we would see 50 zillion threads titled: "Fearless vs New DE gadget... WTF?" :biggrin:


----------



## VanitusMalus

In the rule they could state "this "ability" works on all units, no matter wargear or special ruling" and to be honest I don't know why they don't do that for certain abilities. Hell I remember in the early days when they use to actually state which rules and units particular abilities and wargear worked on (that ofcourse was mindnumbingly brutal as it caused the surge in debates of what units could be effected by said powers...like the Avatar and being a daemon argument).


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> That's why I postulate auto-fail. It bypasses Fearless.


I think a good fluff explanation for such a weapons could be along the lines of:

A small canister holding the intact brain of a Psyker, their tortured soul trapped inside.
When the canister is thrown (or launched) at the enemy, the soul is released in a powerful psychic blast, fucking with the brains of anyone nearby, causing them to temporarily have no sense of their own body as their souls threaten to be swept away from their corporeal form.
Any unit touched by the blast marker must take a Leadership test at -2/3 or be pinned (note that this _does_ ignore Fearless), and any Psyker in the affected unit immediately suffers a Perils of the Warp attack.

So, this would really kick Psyker Battle Squads in the nuts.


----------



## Sethis

It would also totally destroy Jetseer as a viable army (assuming Dark Eldar managed to get a tournament-viable archetype).

Good riddance in my mind, but it might annoy a number of Eldar players!


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> It would also totally destroy Jetseer as a viable army (assuming Dark Eldar managed to get a tournament-viable archetype).
> 
> Good riddance in my mind, but it might annoy a number of Eldar players!


Not _destroy_ it, but nerf it a bit, since it's too good.


----------



## Underground Heretic

It wouldn't really do that much to jetseers, especially if they are fortuned. Ghosthelm prevents 2/3 of the perils and then fortune takes care of half of the perils that get through.


----------



## TheKingElessar

My sources indicated that DE will nerf Eldar anyway. Being more mobile than Eldar + same kind of damage output = win.



Seer Council armies in particular are apparently going to suffer. Perhaps DE get Dispel Dice? (Seal of Ghrond upgrade on Raiders? lol)


----------



## Cyklown

It's a shame, since jetseers are one of the "cool but slightly overcosted" alternatives to straight mechdar. It's hard-as nails, sure, but you don't deal with power armour so well and at 45 pts per jetlock before anything else...


----------



## Blue Liger

I agree with auto pinning weapons that ignore fearless I mean with horde one or 2 units may not matter for a turn really and those that can't horde don't have truck loads of fearless units I mean alot of wargear vehcile and non vehicle are based on the ability to pin, but as said earlier most uniys now auto-pass this due to fearless or have to higher LD to not have to worry about it until a modifer of at least -4 comes into play. I have always believed the horrorfex should be this sort of weapon (vehicle mounted terrorfex), and to those who said SM are supposed to have ATSKNF - wnhy do they still run and get caught in sweeping advances .


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Sethis said:


> The main issue I have at the moment is simply that armies that have had traditionally terrible leadership (which could be exploited by a canny player - while not making the army underpowered) are now functionally fearless across the board. You have to kill 20 Orks just to cause any leadership based checks at all, and I can't remember the last time a Nid player had Gaunts that weren't Fearless, even with me TRYING to take out the Synapse creatures.
> 
> I'd just like to see Psychology take some part in the game again, rather than it only mattering when determining how many Fearless wounds you need to take. DE and Necrons are the two armies most likely to be based around this theme, and I think DE could do it better, both in terms of tactical uses of weaponry and fluffwise.


I agree. The ammount of fearless going around is just annoying. I'd like to see more focus on the Ld statistic. Possible like WHFB where it is actually used.


----------



## Sethis

Underground Heretic said:


> It wouldn't really do that much to jetseers, especially if they are fortuned. Ghosthelm prevents 2/3 of the perils and then fortune takes care of half of the perils that get through.


That's only the Farseer. Warlocks don't get Ghosthelms, so it'd be a normal 4+ save or dead for them.

If it was just a one-off weapon, that'd be fine, but if it's taken as the Warrior squad special weapon (so you could possibly have 2 per 10 warriors) then it could get very nasty very fast.


----------



## Syko515

honestly, i'm saying let the DE get nasty. they already are. rules wise they really needed little more then an update and face lift. as far as GW is going though? their going to end up with some nasty cool shit, and i for one cannot wait.{ means my wife will start collecting again} 

now, new models i hope are worth the wait. but again seeing the conversion from pewter to plastic that has been slowly taking place in all codex's released to this point, i find it hard to imagine them releasing anything Fugly interms of detail and the likes. 

so heres a woot and a whoop whoop for the dark eldar, its about damned time!



afew post back saw discussion of a more powerful lance weapon? i can see it happening. especailly given the tyranid lance that z thropes pack i bet it'll have a shortened range and be cheaper in price. not saying anything bad about current eldar or their lance's but their time for a facelift is almost up aswell.


----------



## Winterous

Syko515 said:


> afew post back saw discussion of a more powerful lance weapon? i can see it happening. especailly given the tyranid lance that z thropes pack i bet it'll have a shortened range and be cheaper in price. not saying anything bad about current eldar or their lance's but their time for a facelift is almost up aswell.


I really hope they distinguish Dark Lances and Bright Lances in the rules.
For example, making Dark Lances have a rule similar to the Psycannon, it can be fired Heavy long-range, or Assault short-range, and be cheap and weak-ish.
And keep Bright Lance as fairly expensive, but quite powerful and long range.

So maybe these.
Dark Lance: 30" Heavy 1 / 18" Assault 1 S8 AP2 Lance.
Bright Lance: 36" Heavy 1 S9 AP1 Lance.


----------



## Sethis

I like the idea of distinguishing between Dark and Bright, but I'm not sure I see S9 as being an option. It would make Lances better than Railguns against anything that isn't AV12. Actually, they'd be better across the board because they're not going to start charging us 60pts per Lance.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Again, just replace the mediocre Lance rule with 'Always Penetrating, All the Time'. 

Oh, and AP1 too.


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> I like the idea of distinguishing between Dark and Bright, but I'm not sure I see S9 as being an option. It would make Lances better than Railguns against anything that isn't AV12. Actually, they'd be better across the board because they're not going to start charging us 60pts per Lance.


Ok, so S8 AP1.


----------



## Cyklown

Er, it'd make BLances as good as railguns against av13, and worse against av12 and bellow. At 45 points, given that there are a fair number of av14 vehicles that'll ignore lance (granted in outdated in underpower codii, so maybe we should not avoid throwing them that bone) you're looking at what is generally a 5-points cost difference in exchange for being better most of the time isn't so terrible. Plus... Railguns ID t5 models and wound WLs on a 2+.


I dislike the autonerfing of jet councils and other seer councils. Honestly, though, it'll hurt jet councils more, since they spend more time out of a transport but not in combat. They're powerfull, but it's not straight mechdar, and jet councils are sliiiightly overpriced for what they do. They're a solid CC options that has trouble with power armor. They save you a FOC from being inhabbited by Banshees, but if you spend the points on them you can't afford to use that slot for something else at 2.5k points. That's something that GW should avoid nerfing. DE are already going to beat them in cc, why make them an instafail?

While we're hijacking the subject over to my beloved, I mean over to the less depraved dudzorz, would people rather see s7ap2 heavy 2 starcannons or s6ap2 heavy 3? Would ap1 be outrageous?


----------



## TheKingElessar

I think the Starcannon is okay at S6 AP2, Heavy 2. It just needs to cost 10 points, that's all.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Im quite sure that neither type of Lance the Eldars of various sort has will become AP1. AP1 is melta weapons and railguns.

Lascannons arent AP1 and will not become it either, and B/D Lances are the Elven equivalent and should also stay out of the AP1 corner. 3d ed had quite a huge declining AP inflation, which really wasnt good for the game. Why do you think Terminators have 5+ IV saves now? There is an article in WD 250ish where Pete Heinz writes it in plain clear words. Terminators became shit because we included too many low AP weapons in the game. And thus the 5++ save was invented, and combined with a little less AP2 options in each codex things started to shape up again.
The design studio seem to have lernt that not all kinds of guns can have really low AP, something I really hope stays that way.

You do all realize that a S8 lance is as good against AV14 as a S10 shot and better then a S9 shot (lascannon anyone?), right? Personally I think that the both Lances are very well designed and should stay the way they are. Eldar tanks are designed to be of low-medium armour because their lance weapons makes more armour useless, and the lance technology is as good as it needs to be for them.
The problem is not the way they (lances) work, its the sore lack of other options that needs a good dose of attention instead.
I also fully expect the "100 pts dual DL 10 man warrior unit" to become extinct. The interesting question is how those shall become useful instead?


As much as I also would see pinning get more attention I would never like to see an "autopinning" thingy. Its impossible to give such a thing the right price taguke:


----------



## barBEARian

i think a template weapon that shot out nerve gas would be awesome. also, they should have a limited mind control thing


----------



## TheKingElessar

Terminators are still shit unless they have a Storm Shield though.


----------



## Sethis

IIRC, Termies got a 5+ Inv due to the proliferation of Power Weapons (which were brand new in ignoring armour completely) rather than AP1/2 weapons. The WD article had a picture of a squad of Termies looking nervous as a squad of Banshees ran at them! :biggrin:

It's not that Lances should objectively have AP1 for some reason, it's that Space Marines and Tyranids have got AP1 Lance weapons, and it would really confuse and annoy me if Eldar *didn't* get them too.


----------



## Blue Liger

MaidenManiac said:


> Lascannons arent AP1 and will not become it either, and B/D Lances are the Elven equivalent and should also stay out of the AP1 corner. 3d ed had quite a huge declining AP inflation, which really wasnt good for the game. Why do you think Terminators have 5+ IV saves now? There is an article in WD 250ish where Pete Heinz writes it in plain clear words. Terminators became shit because we included too many low AP weapons in the game. And thus the 5++ save was invented, and combined with a little less AP2 options in each codex things started to shape up again.
> The design studio seem to have lernt that not all kinds of guns can have really low AP, something I really hope stays that way.


I agree with this to a point yes since 3rd we have seen some many low Ap high S guns but haow many do the DE have (drum roll....) 2 and second disintergrator shot doesn't count as it's S4 it's not high S though is Ap3. I get the feeling they will include more special weapons of a similar eldar origin such as the starcannon, but I would rather less of this and more specialising of the DL I think either S9 Ap2 or S8 Ap1 wouldn't be going to far with the "too many weapons in game that have high S and low Ap" if you want to complain about this look at the Eldar,SM and CSM books not the DE.

I also agree with Sethis, lance weapons technology was when it came out an Eldar/DE ONLY technology now every man his dog and librarian is getting one WTF! Therefore I don't see why this can't warrant an upgrade in ours or the continual spamming of it as, we are the supposed kings of it so why are ours worse than the Sm and Nids abilities (given I know they are psychic powers)

In regards to the 100pt sniper squad I hope it stays, I love using it and and yes I know they mix around squads usually in new codecies but it's one I would like to see stay I mean the iconic marine squad wasn't changed around much, the ork squads got reduced points, SW troops got more attacks, Nids got meaner.... you get the picture I'm hoping they don't chnage the watrrior format around too much (and dearly hope they leave our BS skill alone). Though in saying this I'm not sure on what they will do with the fact that DE can take 4 special weapons ina 10 man warrior squad we may have to say goodbye to this, though once again I love this ability and it may just be reserved for 20 man squads.


----------



## Cyklown

Re MaidenManiac:

Er, except you need ap1 for reliable vehicular kill, and we've seen a dearth of s8-10 ap1 lance weapons these days.


We have the low-ap weapons because armies had a helaciously hard time dealing with them termi's. Remember the choppa rule? In any case, if the cover rules for 5th had existed earlier they would have needed it considerably less.


In any case, that's irrelevant: ap1 is no different from ap2 for the perspective of armour saves. It is simply a placeholder note that says "this ap2 weapon gets +1 on the damage table". Quite frankly, 40-45 point guns need it anymore. Space marines have the lascannon or the MM. Eldar and DE don't get MMs. We get fire dragons, but that's a) an elites squad and b) a short-ranged unit.

For that Matter, Wraithcannons and D-Cannons needs AP1.

The eldar weaponry lineup is based on ap1 upgrading hits to a pen at a point when a) glancing was still worth ANYTHING and their guns glanced and penned on fixed scores. Now glances on non-ap1 weapons are reasonably worthless and ap1 does something else.

If they were, say, s8ap1 they'd be better against AV14 than a las, except against Monoliths and Blessed Hulls, where they'd be strictly worse.

They would be marginally better against av13, except meltaweapons, which they get reduced access to compared to other armies, even WITH firedragons on the list

They would be about equal against av 12. Las would would pen on a 4+, with Brightlance penning on a 5+, but that's 3 1/3 chances to destroy, as opposed to 2 1/2 chances to destroy and a 1/6 chance to destroy. From there the lance would go on to be sliiight better.

But, it's a 36" heav1 gun that costs 40 pts in an army with no MMs and lessened MG access that they pay an elites slot for. That's... yeah.

So, what's the range on the lascannon? And the range on a BLance? And then... the range on a MM? With a choice of better range for anyone and the option of taking a short range but a truly vicious effect against vehicles on the MM, the marines still get better options unless you make BLances AP1. Combine that with the standard for lances being AP1 that's been set and the fact that Eldar don't have any reasonable ap1 vehicle-mountable weapons, and we're looking at either making fusion guns available as chin-cannons (and even then, at bs 3... well, I suppose we've been waiting a long time for Crystal Targeting Matrices to be back but this time as a vehicle upgrade) just to keep Eldar even remotely in the game as far as transport killing goes.


On SCs: I'd rather see them cost 15 and be s7ap2h2. They're worse against marines in cover than Scatters and terrible at vehicle kills.

Making them s7 would have no effect against infantry, but would at least give them another role to play. It'd also put them on par with a plasma cannon, which they honestly need.


----------



## Winterous

I think you guys are forgetting my original point though, it's that Bright and Dark Lances, which use completely different technology, have identical profiles.
Now, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that's stupid.

Solution:
Make Bright Lances more powerful, 36" S8 AP1 is a good fix, and also slightly cheaper than they are.
Make Dark Lances more mobile, using a similar rule to a Psycannon, 30"/18" (H/A) S8 AP2.
Done, you get the focus on efficiency of the Eldar, and the focus of mobility of the Dark Eldar.


----------



## Cyklown

Well, they're different but perfectly parellel technologies with exactly the same root.


----------



## Winterous

Cyklown said:


> Well, they're different but perfectly parellel technologies with exactly the same root.


Page 35 of Codex: Dark Eldar, top bit.
Won't bother quoting, but it says it fires a stream of 'dark matter', which is speculated to be found in black holes.

Page 22 of Codex: Eldar, under The Spear of Light.
"Eldar laser weapons use psychically grown crystals to filter and refine laser bursts to their optimum potency."

Extraordinarily different technologies.


----------



## Blue Liger

Winetrous, we have the disintergrators for the role your specifying - aka more than likely this wont happen to the DL, alos DE need it to be 36" to be able to saty in cover and at distance for certain wargear aka the night shield (when used) to be more affective as on same game baords it can put Lascannons and Misslelaunchers out of reach reducing the ravager gun to 30 means that we won't be in range when we move 12" and go to shoot at the las predator but they still will be, they won't reduce it's range the lowest long range gun in an army will be 36" I don't see GW changing this unless some other super uber riules for CC come in to compensate this down fall


----------



## Winterous

Blue Liger said:


> Winetrous, we have the disintergrators for the role your specifying - aka more than likely this wont happen to the DL, alos DE need it to be 36" to be able to saty in cover and at distance for certain wargear aka the night shield (when used) to be more affective as on same game baords it can put Lascannons and Misslelaunchers out of reach reducing the ravager gun to 30 means that we won't be in range when we move 12" and go to shoot at the las predator but they still will be, they won't reduce it's range the lowest long range gun in an army will be 36" I don't see GW changing this unless some other super uber riules for CC come in to compensate this down fall


True true.
Perhaps then keep 36", but add the 18", or even a 12" Assault weapon range.


----------



## Blue Liger

They already have a 12" DL it's called the Blaster and is assault 1


----------



## Winterous

Blue Liger said:


> They already have a 12" DL it's called the Blaster and is assault 1


They could...
Combine, the.. Two..?

Fuck.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I like the synergy of D/B Lances, tbh.

Also, I envy DE BS4. How simple would it have been to put 'For every Farseer in the army (including Eldrad) you may upgrade one squad of Guardians to Black Guardians for +6 points/model. Black Guardians add 1 to their WS, BS and I, and get the Stubborn USR.'


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> I like the synergy of D/B Lances, tbh.
> 
> Also, I envy DE BS4. How simple would it have been to put 'For every Farseer in the army (including Eldrad) you may upgrade one squad of Guardians to Black Guardians for +6 points/model. Black Guardians add 1 to their WS, BS and I, and get the Stubborn USR.'


Aren't Black Guardians exclusive to Ulthwé though?
I think they should also make Guardians Defenders get a single Weapon Platform for every 10 men, with the option to take a second one per 10 men, or something like that.
That would make them nice.

But yeah, if Black Guardians were included in every Craftworld's forces, then that would be a great addition.
Better troops, for a start, and they supposedly use extensive use of the Webway, so they could have some accurate Deep Strike rule, which would be awesome.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Screw Deep Strike - DS'ing T3 Troops choice on foot = suicide.

No, just putting them in every Craftworld is fine - it's not unfluffier than Biel-Tan Troops Jetbikes. Rare, maybe, but impossible, no.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Screw Deep Strike - DS'ing T3 Troops choice on foot = suicide.
> 
> No, just putting them in every Craftworld is fine - it's not unfluffier than Biel-Tan Troops Jetbikes. Rare, maybe, but impossible, no.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Guardians#Ulthw.C3.A9_Black_Guardians
It says there they do.

But if they're the 'elite' Guardians, they'd probably be much more in the thick of the fighting than regular Guardians.
So, they could instead of taking Heavy Weapons, take Assault Weapons, like a Fusion Gun and a Flamer.
That + accurate Deep Strike = good.

Also, considering they aren't constrained by an aspect of war, they could be equipped quite variably, unlike Dire Avengers for example, give them the special weapons, perhaps something similar to Exarch powers.
They could be like mini-Aurtarchs


----------



## TheKingElessar

LMAO. Mini-Autarchs are Exarchs, that's why they invented Autarchs - to justify (finally) the power drop between 2nd and now. (Old Exarchs used to be broken...but this isn't a 2nd Ed Thread)

Only way to justifiably Accurate DS them would be Webway Gates, and let's leave those to the DE this Edition, okay? lol

Read this month's Standard Bearer for my opinions on fluff, curiously coming from Jervis' mouth...(/hands...)


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> LMAO. Mini-Autarchs are Exarchs, that's why they invented Autarchs - to justify (finally) the power drop between 2nd and now. (Old Exarchs used to be broken...but this isn't a 2nd Ed Thread)
> 
> Only way to justifiably Accurate DS them would be Webway Gates, and let's leave those to the DE this Edition, okay? lol
> 
> Read this month's Standard Bearer for my opinions on fluff, curiously coming from Jervis' mouth...(/hands...)


By mini-Autarchs I meant they were a unit that could take a variety of gear, CC weapons, Fusion Guns, Shuricatapults, a large selection.

The Webway thing was just from that little paragraph on Lexicanum, so whatever.

And um, what's Standard Bearer?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Jervis' column in WD. lol

It's not that they don't use the Webway mate, just that I don't want them to in game.


----------



## MaidenManiac

First of all I dont think one should include psycic powers in weapon discussions. There are lots of ways of trying to counter them, its not that fun when your AT gets dispelled, that can never happen to a gun.
Keep them out.

Then back to Dork Lances. I still say that _they_ are fine. Why not some new kind of weapon to cover up empty ground instead? Be a bit creative folks. IIRC there are 2 Heavy Weapons in the DE book, DL and Disintigrators, a "bit" thin, right? Why not some kind of Heavy Blaster?
Splinter Cannons are assault weapons, so they really doesnt count for heavies but sure, we can say 3 if you want....


----------



## Cyklown

MaidenManiac said:


> Then back to Dork Lances. I still say that _they_ are fine. Why not some new kind of weapon to cover up empty ground instead? Be a bit creative folks. IIRC there are 2 Heavy Weapons in the DE book, DL and Disintigrators, a "bit" thin, right? Why not some kind of Heavy Blaster?
> Splinter Cannons are assault weapons, so they really doesnt count for heavies but sure, we can say 3 if you want....


Er, 5th edition came. They aren't fine.

Armies need either an ap1 gun that has reasonable chances of getting through AV13-14 or they need a massive number of CC attacks that will get through av13-14 a la orks.

The imperium gets MMs and meltaguns. For Spayce Manz they're an option on most of their try tanks. The ones that can't take them can rock 3 lascannons and AV13 fronting. Most imperium armies can tuck MGs away all over the place. How many Melta weapons do DE have access to? The tau get Fusion blasers and Railguns. Chaos gets... combi melta and 2 meltas to a squad.

DE get... nothing. They'd have to give them fusion guns or an equivilant. Or they could just update the Dark Lance profile to actually be in keeping with 5th edition. I'd rather they adapt a gun to make it keep doing what it's done in the past than see them invent a completely new gun with no backstory.


----------



## Creon

I'd have several suggestions.

1: Scourges allowed to have Dissies as well as Lances. And have Heroic Intervention, and cost a lot less. 

2: More heavy weapons. We have a heavy bolter EQ, and a Plasma EQ, and a LasCannon EQ. What I'd like to see is a Rocket/Missile EQ, and maybe a sheaf missile for raiders. You can't tell me that strapping a dozen shard missiles to the front of a raider isn't a DE thing to do. Heavy 3, STR: 8, AP 2, Barrage.

3: An actual TANK. I'm sorry, there is no other race in 40k that doesn't have a tank class vehicle except 'nids. I'd love to see the flyer added like the Valkyrie and Storm Raven were. 

4: Restore the rules to go first. Either give a plus to the initial roll, or allow a Sieze INIT at 4+, instead of 6+.

Just a wish list, no foreknowledge.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I think we can all agree the DE need more backstory in general, and more options - so I disagree with Cyk on that point.


----------



## kriswithak

With the changes to the core rules alot of armies really suffer from previously good choices that are maimed by different rules, bringing those weapons up to date (ie AP1) should be the first step taken, regardless of people whining about stuff being changed - especially in light of certain armies saturated with AV 13/14.
These are weapons that are meant to put other races anti tank to shame, and they work now because there are so many available to a DE army, not because they are insanely good.
Look at Eldar they barely use BL at all, they rely on fusion because without a torrent of fire its just not worth it.

The Dark Eldar codex is extremely thin however, and could do with some additional options. I think what we can all agree upon is we don't want it going the way of Eldar, plenty of choices, but realistically from any competitive viewpoint the same hugely limited viable choices that DE currently has.

Don't see why they would need a tank though, thats totally un-DE'ish.


----------



## Winterous

Confucius said:


> Don't see why they would need a tank though, thats totally un-DE'ish.


This man speaks the truth!


----------



## TheKingElessar

I don't know about Disses for Scourges - but I would like a price drop, and Relentless. Relentless Jet Packs.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I look for Webway Portals ... DS without fail And Darklances are pretty nice nothing has an Armor better than 12.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

TheKingElessar said:


> I don't know about Disses for Scourges - but I would like a price drop, and Relentless. Relentless Jet Packs.


Relentless Jet Packs is kinda stating the obvious


----------



## Blue Liger

I did a homedex of DE with the above sort of stuff in it My scourge were 18pts but came with the relentess rule and splinter cannons as the standard gun not the splinter rifles so for 180pts you could lay 40 S4 Ap5 shots per turn out of them at 24' range then you could take upto 4 heavy weapons per squad with the DL being 10pts (like the current warrior squads) and Dissies being 15pts - I thought this was fair as I limited the squads to 10 men and only 4 special weapons as the current realdex has it and they still kept the 5+ save and T3 meaning a round of tact squad shooting would wipe them out


----------



## Sethis

Dark Eldar do have a tank. He's called Asdrubal Vect, and he's 14/14/14...

I also see them getting a "Special Character" Talos, which would be funny.

And there's no point complaining about Lances being AP2 instead of 1, because as soon as they re-release the codex it'll happen, no question. Just look at the new codicies; Nidz get AP1 S10 Lance psychic powers, Blood Angels get AP1 Hunter Killers and AP1 Lance Psychic powers. Every codex that is being printed is getting their AP1 choices at least doubled. just wait for the codex and we'll get the same treatment.


----------



## Winterous

Blue Liger said:


> I did a homedex


I read that far and started giggling.
Why?
I read 'homodex'.

I need to go to bed. :alcoholic:


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Winterous said:


> I read that far and started giggling.
> Why?
> I read 'homodex'.
> 
> I need to go to bed. :alcoholic:


Haha I read the same thing. I suppose, DE do like their gimps...


----------



## TheKingElessar

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Relentless Jet Packs is kinda stating the obvious


Oooops...:laugh:


----------



## Cyklown

Talthewicked said:


> I look for Webway Portals ... DS without fail And Darklances are pretty nice nothing has an Armor better than 12.


Yeah. It's great.

Except it's worse than a lascannon for anything av12 or lower, it's on par with a lascannon at av13, and it's 1 result out of 6 better than a lascannon against av14 except when blessed hulls or monoliths come into it.

It worse against transports than the lascannon, and it's got even less range. Against "tough" targets it's only getting through with a pen 1/3 of the time. And that's all DE get.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

It is the same for eldar bright lances-although we do get fusion guns but even they are only short range


----------



## Keelia

Id love to see Splinter Rifles be str3 18" assault 2 instead of rapid fire.
Blasters be basicly the DE melta weapon....I mean its basiclt a sawed off dark lance.
Make Dark Lances AP1. Id pay a few more points be for AP1
Make scourges, bikes, hellions viable competative options.

Id like to see some sort of extra armor upgrade.....Like slave shields or something. At least some way to negate crew stunned and drop it to crew shaken.

Some sort of anti psychic stuff.

Some way for us to acculate KPs through slave capture. We all know if its a KP mission we more than likley have to table our opponent to win.


----------



## Creon

I'd like to see grotesques have shadow fields.


----------



## Keelia

Every army has something that is an equivalant in another army. Accept DE, mainly because it is over a decade old. All those changes ive listed, with other stuff being changed will balance out. Dark lances are cheap right now because they arent really that good. They are good in big numbers but thats about it. you might get a pen after shooting 4 and that pen will be 1-4 is usually how it pans out.


----------



## Cyklown

Stephen_Newman said:


> It is the same for eldar bright lances-although we do get fusion guns but even they are only short range


Well, sure. I'd have pointed that out except for the fact that I'm already a raving, militant fanboi and partisan for the glory and righteousness that is the Craftworld Eldar. It seemed inapropriate to bring them up, even if they're related. The DE really do need the love more.

That being said, yes Eldar get shaft over the vehicle changes as well. We havea 1/9 chance of killing anything with an av of 12 or higher, and no s7 weapons. But... we at least have fusion guns. Ap1 melta weapons come in handy. Do we still need lances to become ap1 and take a price drop? Sure. And for the points they cost I'd like to see starcannons be s7hvy3 or s7ap1 (keeping their other stats the same as what they are now, natch). But that doesn't stop the DE from needing those things a million times more.

DE only have Dark Lances, and Dark Lances are basically krak missiles most of the time. Freaking _great_. Make them ap1 at the very least. If s9ap1 is too much then just allow them reroll 1s to penetrate. There, now you have a 1/36 chance to fail to at least glance av10. Or maybe just let them roll armour pen like MCs. Giving them haywire grenades... and making haywire grenades not completely and totally sucking, might also suck. CC as a way of killing vehicles is a Bad thing to rely on, but having it in addition to some ap1 weaponry is always nice. Considering the fact that haywires are completely unsable right now and the only unit that, of the top of my head, has them would be unsable even if they weren't giant heaping (and steaming) piles of something you wouldn't want to step in, it'd be nice to see someone representing with 'em.



Keelia said:


> Every army has something that is an equivalant in another army. Accept DE, mainly because it is over a decade old. All those changes ive listed, with other stuff being changed will balance out. Dark lances are cheap right now because they arent really that good. They are good in big numbers but thats about it. you might get a pen after shooting 4 and that pen will be 1-4 is usually how it pans out.


They're cheap? Wut?

I mean, I don't have my 'dex with me here today, but... it's a krak missile up until av13. That's it.

1 in 3 hits will be a pen. 1 in 3 pens will blow it up. Therefore, 9 pens are expected to blow anything of av12 and up. That's not shabby if it's your backup, more affordable weapon. It's crap if it's all you got.

In an era where the transport is king that's a fairly crippling flaw.


----------



## Kinglopey

Some simple changes can make a big difference, giving Scourges Jet Packs instead or Jump packs or making them relentless would make a huge difference. More entries in general would be nice. All of the Vehicles should have Scout, that way they can Turbo Boost and get the Obscurement Save.

One can only hope... but until I see something official from GW, like a Presale Info, I won't get my hopes up...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I meant to explain that I brought the craftworld Eldar as an example (that I know very well) that the DE are not the only guys that have sucky tankbusting power in the day when it seems marines are the only way to go.


----------



## Cyklown

That's cool. I just try to stay away from Eldar when discussing GW lov' that I actually want other armies to get. I'm a bit too much of a Eldar partisan to have going into that territory not a) partially discredit my entire point, and b) gets me distracted.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

The entire way GW decides who gets the next update sucks big time. Although I think we all knew that anyway. Point is I seriously doubt that any armies that deserve replacing (eldar, DE, necrons, GK, SoB, Chaos and tau are my main choices here) but unfortunately because they are not power armour wearing imperials or orks they just get ignored. (not gonna complain much though. The current ork codex is probably the best one out there at the moment)


----------



## Warlock in Training

I for one am damn happy about the ork love. Im still considering getting Orks. There fun, crude, and play a huge roll in the 40k Game. Good on them.... now where the fuck is my DE, Necs, Inquisition, and Chaos Legions!!!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Stephen_Newman said:


> The entire way GW decides who gets the next update sucks big time. Although I think we all knew that anyway. Point is I seriously doubt that any armies that deserve replacing (eldar, DE, necrons, GK, SoB, Chaos and tau are my main choices here) but unfortunately because they are not power armour wearing imperials or orks they just get ignored. (not gonna complain much though. The current ork codex is probably the best one out there at the moment)


Whaaaaaaaa?

Codexes better than Orks include Eldar, Nids, Tau, DE, ALL Imperial Dexes (except DH and DA, natch)...really, Chaos are on par, maybe a little worse - and Necrons are worse. That's kinda it.


----------



## Katie Drake

TheKingElessar said:


> Whaaaaaaaa?
> 
> Codexes better than Orks include Eldar, Nids, Tau, DE, ALL Imperial Dexes (except DH and DA, natch)...really, Chaos are on par, maybe a little worse - and Necrons are worse. That's kinda it.


That's really entirely up for debate though. Besides, it's possible that by "best one out there" he meant something other than the most powerful army in 40K.


----------



## Necrosis

TheKingElessar said:


> Whaaaaaaaa?
> 
> Codexes better than Orks include Eldar, Nids, Tau, DE, ALL Imperial Dexes (except DH and DA, natch)...really, Chaos are on par, maybe a little worse - and Necrons are worse. That's kinda it.


I must say, I very strongly disagree with you.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

When I said the best out there I was just referring to the codex. 

Anyway should'nt we really get back on track to concerning ourselves with the next necron/dark eldar release?


----------



## Keelia

Im sorry the ork codex is bad ass. Maybe you just arnt playing ang good ork players?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Keelia said:


> Im sorry the ork codex is bad ass. Maybe you just arnt playing ang good ork players?


Ahahaha. I'm the best Ork player I know - having over 10k of Orks kinda helps. Orks have limited tools to compete with other armies - perhaps you just aren't playing good enough non-Ork players.

This conversation is over.


----------



## Katie Drake

TheKingElessar said:


> This conversation is over.


Yes, it is, but not because you say so. Watch the tone used with other members on the boards please.

Katie D


----------



## Winterous

Yeah King, you do sound condescending when you're talking about why some codices simply aren't as competitive as others, however right you may be.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Keelia said:


> Im sorry the ork codex is bad ass. Maybe you just arnt playing ang good ork players?


I agree, there is more competent and effective Builds than most Dexes have. I seen some awsome builds that work well. Now that Defrollas can kill LRs and Monoliths, what is there Orks cant do?

Back on Topic. Maybe they will comeout after next years tax refund. my CSM colloection is getting pretty fat. Need evil Eldar to continue, seems right since Craftworld Eldar was my first love.


----------



## Keelia

Dotn forget assault missle launchers lol.

But yea Dark Eldar is coming, but sadly i wont be playing it at tournaments because everyone else will be, i will be missing the exclusitvity of DE when a new dex comes out.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Keelia said:


> Dotn forget assault missle launchers lol.
> 
> But yea Dark Eldar is coming, but sadly i wont be playing it at tournaments because everyone else will be, i will be missing the exclusitvity of DE when a new dex comes out.


It is one of the perks of playing such an old dex. I'll also miss it.


----------



## Winterous

Keelia said:


> But yea Dark Eldar is coming, but sadly i wont be playing it at tournaments because everyone else will be, i will be missing the exclusitvity of DE when a new dex comes out.


That's a good point, they won't be quite the underdog anymore, which is a shame.
Right now, a DE player is something to behold.

Although realistically, they will have a very tricky play style, so in all likelihood they won't be _that_ popular.


----------



## darklove

For some reason I feel that GW might do CSM before DE or Necrons. I just feel that they might be coming up sooner rather than later, mainly because the models and background are already so well defined and supported.


----------



## spudboy

darklove said:


> For some reason I feel that GW might do CSM before DE or Necrons. I just feel that they might be coming up sooner rather than later, mainly because the models and background are already so well defined and supported.


That's a realistic possibility, if for any other reason than all it would take at this stage is a quick rewrite without any new models.

But then... do they need it?

I'd still love to see a legion specific book... aaaand I'm off topic.

Back to DE and Necs. I'd love to see some new models, especially plastic Pariahs and new DE Warriors. I'm more than a little curious, though, why there were no C'Tan pictured in the BRB. Hint at new models there?


----------



## Siphon

I'm going to make one hijack question on this thread in my silly SM fanboi love...I think I remember hints of a possible new BT codex late this year early next. Am I imagining this?

Back on topic...

I would def. like to see not only the units the DE currently have get upgraded more in line with 5th edition, but I would like to see completely new units. I don't see why they have never had psykers, it fits with them being Eldar to have some, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of soul sucking psyker HQ. I also think a cool rule like the skaven's shooting into CC would be appropriate for DE.


----------



## Cyklown

They don't have psyckers because of where they live. The only psyckers who survive there are Shadowseers, and that's only because they're immune to She Who Thirsts.

You don't suffer a giant demon magnet to live when your homeworld is in the warp. Psykers and DE, with the exception of one-shot "here's the soul of a pyscker in a jar" type effects should be utterly absent from the DE. Torturered remains of psyckers to give defenses? Perhaps. But never, ever actual psyckers.


----------



## Siphon

Your opinion of course. Mine is that they should have some sort of psyker and it would be easy enough to retcon the fluff in on how they would survive. They are living in the webway which Chaos does not have access too, if I remember correctly. It is a closed off portion of the warp.

All Eldar are psykers to some extent, unless they are "evil"? I hardly see the logic in that.

Edit: yes I know the saying about logic in WH40k. Still, I stand by my statement. I'd like to see DE get a psyker of sorts.


----------



## Cyklown

Yes, they COULD retcon the fluff to give the DE a psycker. They could also retcon the BT to give them Psyckers. In both cases they've specifically stated that it Does Not Happen. Breaking and rewriting the cannon for the sake of giving an army a toy that it doesn't need is not on my list of things I like to see.


All Eldar are NOT psyckers. A Culexus Assassin does not get, say, shots equal to the number of Eldar models that are close to him. Eldar are more psychically attune than the other races, but they don't actually follow those paths.

Commorragh is a city that got ripped into the warp at the Fall of the Eldar. It's not exactly a perfectly insulated environment


----------



## nightfish

You should note that under the 'Nightmare Doll' entry in the DE wargear it says that citizens who use psychic powers are considered 'amusing playthings'. Any psykers are therefore hunted down. I would probably say that doing psyker related things stops them from concentrating on enslaving / torturing / killing.

DE should have poisoned attacks as standard, cheap combat drugs and lots of beasts. I would much rather the designers concentrate on their martial abilities.


----------



## LukeValantine

I wounder if the current trend in codex creep will be seen in both codexes if so there is a lot for both necrons, and dalk eldar players to look forward to.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

That depends. I would actually hate to see the new DE dex suffer from codex creep as it in so many ways goes against the way DE should be played. 
We are possibly the trickiest force to play, and it should stay that way. If we start getting blatantly overpowered stuff, we aren't tricky at all right?
And I like DE being the underused underdog. It makes you feel a lot more original and special than all those Spess Muhreen players don't it?


----------



## Siphon

Cyklown said:


> Yes, they COULD retcon the fluff to give the DE a psycker. They could also retcon the BA to give them Psyckers. In both cases they've specifically stated that it Does Not Happen. Breaking and rewriting the cannon for the sake of giving an army a toy that it doesn't need is not on my list of things I like to see.
> 
> 
> All Eldar are NOT psyckers. A Culexus Assassin does not get, say, shots equal to the number of Eldar models that are close to him. Eldar are more psychically attune than the other races, but they don't actually follow those paths.
> 
> Commorragh is a city that got ripped into the warp at the Fall of the Eldar. It's not exactly a perfectly insulated environment


First, the BA have psykers, do you mean BT?

Second, we are talking fluff. All Eldar are psykers in fluff to some extent, even if they don't follow the path of the witch. It's on the first page after the introduction in the codex. "All eldar can manipulate mental energies to a degree." Therefore, if all Eldar are psykers to a degree, then so are DE. 

Heck, read the rules for a Terrorfex, it even specifically mentions that they use grenades to induce nightmarish psychically induced visions. No where in the DE codex does it mention them having any aversion to psykers. Eldar have the witch path to follow for advanced psyker use, I do not find it hard to believe the new DE will have some sort of psyker who expands upon the inherent nature of the race in a less regimented way.


Third, where are you getting that Commorragh is in the Warp? I can't find any mention of where it is located. The only mention I can find in either Eldar codex is in the normal eldar codex in the small paragraph that details the DE and it says "Like a canker in the hidden dimension of the webway, they survive to this day." This to me means that Commorragh is located in the webway much like the Black Library. And therefore is perfectly insulated.


----------



## Winterous

Cyklown said:


> They don't have psyckers because of where they live. The only psyckers who survive there are Shadowseers, and that's only because they're immune to She Who Thirsts.
> 
> You don't suffer a giant demon magnet to live when your homeworld is in the warp. Psykers and DE, with the exception of one-shot "here's the soul of a pyscker in a jar" type effects should be utterly absent from the DE. Torturered remains of psyckers to give defenses? Perhaps. But never, ever actual psyckers.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Eldar#Technology

Psykers are amazing torture toys, they treat all their own Psykers as such, and captured ones too of course.


----------



## Siphon

No offense, but quoting any kind of wiki is pretty much as reliable as just making it up yourself. I like the lexicanum site well enough but they have no backing on half the crap they put up.

I still have yet to see anything official (rulebook fluff, codex fluff) saying DE hate psykers. I think back when DE came out psykers were always rare in all codexs and hence they just weren't given any. I really wouldn't be surprised to see some in a new DE codex if one comes out.

Also, I did find in the main rulebook that Commorragh is in the webway. Page 175.

Edit: I did see the part about amusing playthings now in the nightmare doll entry. Lends some thought to the whole argument about them not liking psykers, however the passage actually implies that the nightmare doll is created by a psyker, almost certainly showing they have psykers.


----------



## darklove

Psykers may well exist, as they do with most races, but that does not mean they are weaponised. 40k is a game that features military forces, for the civilisations at least, not just any random instance of things that might cause violent death.


----------



## Katie Drake

darklove said:


> 40k is a game that features military forces, for the civilisations at least, not just any random instance of things that might cause violent death.


Tell that to the trees that keep killing my Assault Squads.


----------



## Winterous

Well wait, I think we're forgetting something here.
Dark Eldar are, inherently, Eldar; an extremely psychically sensitive race.
So while ALL Dark Eldar are in fact psychically able, they only use the _real_ Psykers as playthings, the ones who are able to harness their powers.


----------



## The Sullen One

spudboy said:


> Back to DE and Necs. I'd love to see some new models, especially plastic Pariahs and new DE Warriors. I'm more than a little curious, though, why there were no C'Tan pictured in the BRB. Hint at new models there?


There may be a very good reason for that, the C'tan will not be part of the next codex for Necrons, in the same way as they are in the current one. Rather from what I've been told the Lord will have the ability to temporarily upgrade to one of the C'tan, similar to how it works in Dawn of War: Soulstorm.


----------



## PanzerPig

I thought that they would just make C'Tan apoc units and give them a power upgrade and adjust points accordingly. This would be more fitting for gods i feel.


----------



## spudboy

The Sullen One said:


> There may be a very good reason for that, the C'tan will not be part of the next codex for Necrons, in the same way as they are in the current one. Rather from what I've been told the Lord will have the ability to temporarily upgrade to one of the C'tan, similar to how it works in Dawn of War: Soulstorm.


I've heard this since before 5th ed. came out. I'm sceptical, if for any other reason than the base sizes are different. How could you do that sort of an upgrade when there's a possibility that you'd be plopping a larger model into a very tight space?

As for them turning into Apoc units... that's also a very old rumor. I don't see any justification for it, though, given how expensive a Monolith is points-wise. You'd be hard pressed to convince me they're going to turn monoliths into Apoc-only units too.

For now I'm holding out on either reduced prominence in the army (more points, certain restrictions on force organization, etc.) or new models.

Now, all this about Eldar and psychic powers... it would make more sense for DE to have expanded psychic powers, even along the lines of Warlocks (automatic use, no rolls). Eldar are all supposedly more sensitive to the warp than other races, but that doesn't make them psychic as in able to toss tanks about with their mind. DE are supposed to be similar, fluff-wise, with their souls slowly being eaten by Slaanesh (yum).


----------



## oblivion8

> Tell that to the trees that keep killing my Assault Squads.


thankfully my lictors overcame their need to trip over branches and rubble as they stalked...


----------



## Cyklown

Well, those AMs are supposed to be Vampires, right? Gaia is just doing her part to stake them thar Spayce Vampyrz.


----------



## Bindi Baji

The Sullen One said:


> There may be a very good reason for that, the C'tan will not be part of the next codex for Necrons, in the same way as they are in the current one. Rather from what I've been told the Lord will have the ability to temporarily upgrade to one of the C'tan, similar to how it works in Dawn of War: Soulstorm.


this is purely DOW based guesswork that has been doing the rounds for 3+ years, 
frankly it amazes me that there are still people who haven't heard this rumour


----------



## darklove

Katie Drake said:


> Tell that to the trees that keep killing my Assault Squads.


Your opponents must be using an army as yet unknown to the rest of us if he/she is fielding units of Trees. Try using fire based weapons, including melta-type weapons, these should make short work of the leafy pests.


----------



## Cyklown

Dude! Heavy flamers should TOTALLY have an effect on tree-based area terrain.


----------



## Winterous

Cyklown said:


> Dude! Heavy flamers should TOTALLY have an effect on tree-based area terrain.


Since an average battle lasts no more than 60 seconds, I don't think the trees would have time to burn down


----------



## Lucio

The argument that C'tan should be apoc only makes sense to me from a fluff perspective. If you can field them in a regular game GW is basically saying that a Baneblade or Land Raider Ares is more powerful than the Necrons gods. I thought these were the gods that nearly wiped the universe of all life not gods that could get squashed by a Baneblade crew and not even know what they squished.


----------



## Serpion5

Yes Lucio. But look at some of those super heavies and gargantuans. Honestly, even in his mere 40k ruleset, the Nightbringer is on pretty even ground with a lot of them.

Even the daemon lords. Being allowed to make a invulnerable save makes a lot of difference.


----------



## rattler25

The Night Bringer almost starved to death in his tomb, if it wasn’t for the people who woke him up he would have died. So the stat line he has right now is almost equal to that of the Deceiver, who is the weakest of all C'tan. If they fatten up the Night Bringer he would half to be an Apoc only unit.


----------



## Winterous

rattler25 said:


> The Night Bringer almost starved to death in his tomb, if it wasn’t for the people who woke him up he would have died. So the stat line he has right now is almost equal to that of the Deceiver, who is the weakest of all C'tan. If they fatten up the Night Bringer he would half to be an Apoc only unit.


Ooh, nice bit of info!

So the Deceiver is a pussy, basically :laugh:


----------



## darklove

The sad thing is that without the C'tan the Necron codex becomes very boring. They are the only unit with any personality. I think they can make the C'tan stronger, find some more of them, and still keep them in normal games. They are not much stronger than in stats than a Wraithlord, apart from their invulnerable save, and as they cost 3 times as much and are a 0-1 option they are pretty balanced. C'tan are not even as strong as a lot of IC in other codices - beef them up for a more fun game.


----------



## Winterous

darklove said:


> I think they can make the C'tan stronger, find some more of them, and still keep them in normal games.


There are only 4 C'tan left.
The Void Dragon can't come into play, because that would mean the Imperium would have collapsed.
The Outsider is extremely unlikely, because he's fucking insane and possibly outside the galaxy.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> There are only 6 C'tan left.
> The Void Dragon can't come into play, because that would mean the Imperium would have collapsed.
> The Outsider is extremely unlikely, because he's fucking insane and possibly outside the galaxy.The B'ker, Lord of the Mechanized Cakes could return and Frui'TLoop Master of the Fruit Flavoured Scarabs Could make an appearance


oh look, I retconned your post, so there is that possibility as well :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> oh look, I retconned your post, so there is that possibility as well :biggrin:



I think my brain just exploded a little bit.


----------



## TheKingElessar

darklove said:


> The sad thing is that without the C'tan the Necron codex becomes very boring. They are the only unit with any personality. I think they can make the C'tan stronger, find some more of them, and still keep them in normal games. They are not much stronger than in stats than a Wraithlord, apart from their invulnerable save, and as they cost 3 times as much and are a 0-1 option they are pretty balanced. C'tan are not even as strong as a lot of IC in other codices - beef them up for a more fun game.


Yes, but search your BA Dex for the 'Silent King':wink:


----------



## darklove

Winterous said:


> There are only 4 C'tan left.
> The Void Dragon can't come into play, because that would mean the Imperium would have collapsed.
> The Outsider is extremely unlikely, because he's fucking insane and possibly outside the galaxy.


One word: retcon!

GW are going to totally rewrite the fluff for Necrons because they are so disconnected with the current story arc. Perfect chance to find some C'tan that everyone forgot about.


----------



## LuLzForTheLuLzGoD

yay dark eldar out in June
it made me smile
hope its not gona be another OP codex like the blood angels


----------



## bakoren

What they need is Avatars. Give them MC models about the height of an Eldar Avatar, but instead of fiery defenders, make them blue hippy natives with long USB cable ponytails :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

bakoren said:


> What they need is Avatars. Give them MC models about the height of an Eldar Avatar, but instead of fiery defenders, make them blue hippy natives with long USB cable ponytails :biggrin:


Hey, that's plagiarism!

...
Wait, can you plagiarise plagiarism?
(the story of Avatar was stolen from a 70's sci-fi novel, almost exactly, kinda like what he did with Terminator)


----------



## spudboy

rattler25 said:


> The Night Bringer almost starved to death in his tomb, if it wasn’t for the people who woke him up he would have died. So the stat line he has right now is almost equal to that of the Deceiver, who is the weakest of all C'tan. If they fatten up the Night Bringer he would half to be an Apoc only unit.


His name, if I recall, is Uriel Ventris. So, the Nightbringer is another thing we can blame on the Ultramarines.


----------



## bakoren

Winterous said:


> Hey, that's plagiarism!
> 
> ...
> Wait, can you plagiarise plagiarism?
> (the story of Avatar was stolen from a 70's sci-fi novel, almost exactly, kinda like what he did with Terminator)


If that novel isn't enough plagiarism for you, the movie was also dances with wolves.

But in all seriousness, DE would be a fun army to see on the field. I am tired of playing Marines or Marines with spikes.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Sadly Marines and orks are going to be the main armies to face since GW heavily endorse these armies the most.

Commenting on a previous post where LuLzForTheLuLzGoD said that DE were coming out in June. Where did you get that info from?


----------



## Underground Heretic

There was a photo on the BOLS Lounge, which is now on the BOLS front end. The Lounge has been trying to decide one way or another on whether or not the photo is genuine. I want it to be, but the fact that it's the picture of the DE raid in the BRB makes me think it isn't.


----------



## Winterous

bakoren said:


> If that novel isn't enough plagiarism for you, the movie was also dances with wolves.
> 
> But in all seriousness, DE would be a fun army to see on the field. I am tired of playing Marines or Marines with spikes.


Yeah, the story is a cliché, but Avatar was basically a photo of that book.
A planet in Alpha Centauri, the natives are large blue people who commune with nature, there is some resource that the humans want which the natives are obstructing, they send a WHEELCHAIR BOUND MARINE into their society using a mind-link alien body, and he decides that he likes them.


----------



## bakoren

Winterous said:


> Yeah, the story is a cliché, but Avatar was basically a photo of that book.
> A planet in Alpha Centauri, the natives are large blue people who commune with nature, there is some resource that the humans want which the natives are obstructing, they send a WHEELCHAIR BOUND MARINE into their society using a mind-link alien body, and he decides that he likes them.


HA!!!!! Yeah. and Titantic was based upon a real naval disaster. James Cameran isn't an incredable director. He is the world's Greatest Plagerist!


----------



## Winterous

bakoren said:


> HA!!!!! Yeah. and Titantic was based upon a real naval disaster. James Cameran isn't an incredable director. He is the world's Greatest Plagerist!


Well he makes good movies, he just doesn't see a reason to pay writers :laugh:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

bakoren said:


> HA!!!!! Yeah. and Titantic was based upon a real naval disaster. James Cameran isn't an incredable director. He is the world's Greatest Plagerist!


Wouldn't it technically be a maritime disaster? If it were a naval disaster I believe there would have been guns, or pirates, or other ships involved. At least someone's Navy would have to be involved.


----------



## r9a9g9e

For the Necrons I would like to see some ap1, and/or gauss that is worth a crap.. all that talk about the DE and b/dLance and no mention that Necron get 3 choices that are way overpriced. lith can't shoot particle whip if it moves. Heave Destroyers r 65pts that r fodder for most weapons due to small unit size, and the nightbringer is 360pts that can only crawl across the board if he shoots his lasCannon

As a side note BT 10marine squad powfist melta gun in a rhino is the same point cost as a monolith. BT need a new codex.


----------



## Serpion5

r9a9g9e said:


> For the Necrons I would like to see some ap1, and/or gauss that is worth a crap.. all that talk about the DE and b/dLance and no mention that Necron get 3 choices that are way overpriced. lith can't shoot particle whip if it moves. Heave Destroyers r 65pts that r fodder for most weapons due to small unit size, and the nightbringer is 360pts that can only crawl across the board if he shoots his lasCannon
> 
> As a side note BT 10marine squad powfist melta gun in a rhino is the same point cost as a monolith. BT need a new codex.


What gave you the impression that the lith can`t fire the PW if it moves? Have you read your codex? The PW can always fire unless you use the lith to teleport a unit. Read the power matrix rules again. You`ll find that the only way to stop the PW is if you destroy the lith itself. That weapon can fire, and I quote: "even if the monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned."
And it also: "cannot be disabled by a weapon destroyed result."

And if one still doesn`t work for you, take two. Trust me, ten year veteran, if you take two gigantic pyramids, you have enough firepower and psych power to put up a hell of a fight.

Back on topic, Every source I`ve consulted (friends of friends etc.) say that these codexes are due for release. And June is the date I am hearing most. :victory:


----------



## Bindi Baji

Serpion5 said:


> And June is the date I am hearing most. :victory:


there is no room for either to be released in june and necrons are still a fair way off from completion, I wish that wasn't the case though


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> there is no room for either to be released in june


Care to explain why?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> Care to explain why?


yes, because there is other stuff


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> yes, because there is other stuff


What other stuff?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Winterous said:


> What other stuff?


O&G releases (May)
Spearhead (June)
Fantasy 8th Ed (July/August?)

Sigh. Don't you READ Rumour threads?!


----------



## Winterous

Fair enough.
But what's O&G?

Oh wait, Orks and Goblins?


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Fair enough.
> But what's O&G?
> 
> Oh wait, Orks and Goblins?


Or*c*s and Goblins, yes.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Or*c*s and Goblins, yes.


Orkz, orkz, orkz, orkz!
It'll always be Orks for me


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Nahh! It stands for ogres and gnoblers (only joking but it sounded funny!)


----------



## tu_shan82

I don't play Fantasy so I'm not really sure about this, but what is the diference between gnoblers and goblins? They look very similar to me, is there any link between the two species?


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## Kale Hellas

gnoblars are goblins that live in hills and are slaves as apposed to goblins who live everywhere else and act as slaves


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Gnoblars are smaller


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## maddermax

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Gnoblars are smaller


but their noses are larger!


/there's a lot of Gnoblar history in the ogres book, very fun to read. As was said, they are reletives of the Goblins, but Scrawnier and more cowardly and possibly less intelligent - which, considering what goblins are like to start with, should tell you a lot.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

maddermax said:


> but their noses are larger!


Touche' Maddermax, Touche' :laugh:


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## MaidenManiac

BOLS has this posted today regarding them Dork Eldars:



> So where are we with the Dark Eldar in the aftermath of all the recent craziness? Not nearly as lost as one might think. To set us back on track lets take stock of some of the more recent and grounded tidbits so we regain our rumor bearings...
> 
> The BoLS Lounge's Eldargal put this roundup together:
> 
> •Dark Eldar not Necrons for late 2010 (ColonalKlink, OP, source GW employee)
> •Harry indicates complete revisit, rules to do justice to a brand new snazzy model range. Every model redone. Release probable within 12 months.
> •Harry ‘wouldn’t be surprised’ to see Gamesday announcement.
> •Possible Christmas release. (others mention October-November)
> •Harry certain they are coming this time, not certain of when.
> •GW committed best resources to DE revisit, including Jes Goodwin as head sculptor
> •GW expects DE to be popular and sell well if they do a decent job this time.
> •New range described as ‘mind-numbingly’ awesome, unclear if this is from eye witness account or wishful thinking.
> •New range to be released in waves, not all waves in production or ready for production.
> •Mix of plastic and metal models, no all plastic plans.
> •Harry confident of his accuracy re DE.
> •“I don't think GW would consider the work of their finest to be any risk at all. The studio have always been of the mindset that if they make the very best toy soldiers they can ... folks will buy them.
> 
> There has been no waffle and no delay.
> 
> When they have said anything at all they have said very clearly what is going on and why. They have said things like: 'We are doing Dark Eldar', "We have asked Jes to have a crack at them', 'The whole range needs attention', 'It is a big project and we are going to give it the time it deserves', 'We are going to give Jes the time he needs to nail them' There has been no waffle or ambiguity in any statements I have heard about this project ... in fact they have been more open and up front about the development of this project than almost any other., 'They will be released when they are done' 'This won't be for a while'.” “They will not be pushed back, nor will they be late. They will, much like a wizard, arrive exactly when they are supposed to.”
> •DE team given as much time as they need to get things right
> 
> 
> Some newer tidbits say that:
> -Codex author is Phil Kelly
> -First Wave kits are complete



Cred goes to BOLS and their sources:good:

Personally I specially like the "GW expects DE to be popular and sell well _if they_ do a decent job this time" point. Combined with the "they will come when they are done" thinking it adds up to a sound view of when/how to release codices and really vouches for seeing the same standard as the released 5th ed Codices all over the boards


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## Katie Drake

Wow. Dark Eldar? I mean... really? Dark Eldar are coming up? I literally can't remember a time when Dark Eldar weren't in need of a new book.

It's gonna be _really_ weird when every Space Marine rumor thread doesn't have Dark Eldar players whining in it.


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## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> It's gonna be _really_ weird when every Space Marine rumor thread doesn't have Dark Eldar players whining in it.


BAHAHAHHAH!
Highlight of the release, that awkward silence around about the third reply in a rumor thread.


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## boreas

Don't worry, players like me (I play DH, WH and Necrons) will fill the gaps!

Phil


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## darklove

I think a GDUK announcement on DE sounds very plausible, and it would fill the slot the SW took last year. It also ties in with what I picked up from Jervis in the autumn, and the 12month development of the codex. I'm expecting it to be quite an interesting book, with lots of evil goodies.


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## MaidenManiac

Katie Drake said:


> It's gonna be _really_ weird when every Space Marine rumor thread doesn't have Dark Eldar players whining in it.





boreas said:


> Don't worry, players like me (I play DH, WH and Necrons) will fill the gaps!


I bet you will, but those books are also quite heavily rumoured to be "on the way". Once Dork Eldars, the Inquisition and Necrons have new books I think the 40k community will reach Nirvana since the whining will be cut to bottom record levels:laugh:


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## Necrosis

MaidenManiac said:


> I bet you will, but those books are also quite heavily rumoured to be "on the way". Once Dork Eldars, the Inquisition and Necrons have new books I think the 40k community will reach Nirvana since the whining will be cut to bottom record levels:laugh:


Nope, cause the space marine and chaos players will complain then.


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## Bindi Baji

MaidenManiac said:


> Once Dork Eldars


but when's the second wave coming, I'm having to use my rubbishy old "blah"



MaidenManiac said:


> the Inquisition


but when's the second wave coming, I'm having to use an old transformer until they release a model for (censored)



MaidenManiac said:


> and Necrons


(necron player) I don't like the new codex, it's far too weak, I remember the days when the monolith could destroy the enemy two turns before it arrived on the board
(everyone else) that's not fair!, your necron warriors alone keep destroying my land raider/trygon/baneblade/titan (delete as applicable)


never understimate the whining of fans, for every one you cheer up, two will happily take their place


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## boreas

So true! The love-hate relationship players have with WH40k is pretty unique. Well some rumors of a codex in June are rearing their head, so the whinig might stop faster than expected!

Phil


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## Warlock in Training

Necrosis said:


> Nope, cause the space marine and chaos players will complain then.



Chaos players will bitch. SMs are well covered in 5th.


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## Lucio

Warlock in Training said:


> Chaos players will bitch. SMs are well covered in 5th.


Mostly, DA's have had their glory snatched by space cheese termies. That and after reading the vanilla marine dex the DA dex is depressingly empty and overpriced. The best thing would be for the da to get a balanced dex that fixes the deathwing issue at the end of the inquisition/de/necron string


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## TheKingElessar

Don't worry, Eldar players will soon take up a place in the queue of moaners - haven't you noticed our Codex getting progressively more and more restricted - we're down to 11 reasonably solid units...and a sexy cheaper Ravager will kill the Falcon, while only the Energy Field keeps the Wave Serpent (ahem) aloft.

And if Hellions/Scourges got the option for all Blasters/some sort of Melta? (Or, Mandrakes, I suppose...) Fire Dragons would suddenly look inferior to something, and the Hadron-Collider would implode us all.


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## Winterous

Warlock in Training said:


> SMs are well covered in 5th.


Barring Devastators, WHICH NEED THEIR FUCKING WEAPON COSTS REDUCED, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK, YOU DON'T NEED TO REPRINT THE CODEX, JUST RELEASE AN FAQ WITH A RULES CHANGE, IT'S NOT HARD.


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## TheKingElessar

Winterous said:


> Barring Devastators, WHICH NEED THEIR FUCKING WEAPON COSTS REDUCED, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK, YOU DON'T NEED TO REPRINT THE CODEX, JUST RELEASE AN FAQ WITH A RULES CHANGE, IT'S NOT HARD.


Chill - you know that's not GW's way any more. In fairness, it simply isn't fair*. I don't want to buy the hobby catalogue AS WELL as a Codex, simply because they realised they cocked up. Let's face it, how many of us ACTUALLY still pay for that rag?



* - Yeah, I know, horrible sentence...but I don't like doing what Paperclips tell me, so I left it as is...


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## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Chill - you know that's not GW's way any more. In fairness, it simply isn't fair*. I don't want to buy the hobby catalogue AS WELL as a Codex, simply because they realised they cocked up. Let's face it, how many of us ACTUALLY still pay for that rag?


What's a hobby catalogue?
But really, they release a few online FAQ, why not just put in a little sentence that says "Replace the weapon options with:"?


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## Blue Liger

Real reason - they don't make money from those sort of changes as it improves a codex not clears a conumdrum up!

Also it keeps it balanced I mean SM get cheaper TH/SS Terminators where as BA get cheaper devestators - all honesty how BA list have you seen so far that in the points limit they manage to field the Dev Squad - none so far I've seen its all baal preds and razorbacks with assault squads then 2 dakka preds and that's a 2000pt game usually or less and thats the competitive build they are trying to find.

My opinion unless you play them don't complain and even then realise that whenever a new game edition gets released so does another plain SM army book wait a year or 2 and they will more than likely have another one


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## Lucio

Dev's really don't mix well with what I know of BA fluff tbh. Charge into melee and slaughter them all!... and you're standing back there with a plasma cannon? makes sense -.-


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## Blue Liger

But that's what I'm saying regular SM will take the terminators because they are cheaper and better but a BA player may think twice about and moan as they dont get TH/SS for that cheap in the same way a SM player will complain about how BA get cheap dev's


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

It's purely because they realise they stuffed up with C:SM and changed them in C:BA.


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## TheKingElessar

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> It's purely because they realise they stuffed up with C:SM and changed them in C:BA.


Maybe, but it's the rules that screw them up most. If they had an Open-Topped Transport, that wasn't O-T when being shot at, then they'd be incredible. Also, if they had Autocannons (yes, I'm saying Havocs are slightly better than Devastators! :shok: )


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Aye, Autocannons would be great. Still, Missile Launchers aren't a *bad* choice, and would complement Autocannons quite nicely IMO.

The Open-topped but not open topped vehicle is pushing it, why not just one with 4 fire points :/


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## Sethis

TheKingElessar said:


> And if Hellions/Scourges got the option for all Blasters/some sort of Melta? (Or, Mandrakes, I suppose...) Fire Dragons would suddenly look inferior to something, and the Hadron-Collider would implode us all.


They're not going to give Jump Pack troops melta guns for 16 points per model... especially not to the whole squad. Fire Dragons are safe as far as I'm concerned (although they keep trying to steal their thunder by letting Chaos and Sisters have Melta-units).


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## Stephen_Newman

This happens every time. I mean the amount of people fretting that characters in the BA codex would be vastly overpowered like mephiston when in fact all it takes is one wraithcannon to kill him.

So basically I am not worried about the DE codex until it comes out (then all hell breaks loose!!!)


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## Cyklown

Yes, but if your opponents field wraithcannons then that's somewhere between 235 and 390 points your opponent just gave you for free.

He's got a jetpack. Wraithguard have 12" guns. Any sort of cover at all or movement on their part means that he can get them. Additionally, only 1/9 shots will ID him. If he catches them he's hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+ with no save.

Wraithguard are, ultimately, bad. An opponent fielding them is not something you should be terrified of.


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## Macrocalculator

> Wraithguard are, ultimately, bad. An opponent fielding them is not something you should be terrified of.


Unless the opponent plays Necrons and you get to take down monoliths. Don't know if it has a lot of tactical value, but it always cheers me up when I take these down. 

Anyway back on topic, it would be nice if the DE and Necron got a new codex this year, but assuming one new SM codex every year and two new ones for the others we would get WH/DH this year (and we already got Tyranids) and Necron or DE maybe in January I would guess DA as the new marines for next year and maybe at the end of next year the other codex. 

The large hadron collider will probably appear as a Forge World special and get stats in a new Imperial Armour book, leaving everyone free to whine about the cost of the model and book until GW makes a plastic kit out of it (at that point we can all switch to whining about it being overpowered/underpowered "destroy the whole gaming table in one go! that's bad!) ((sorry couldn't resist)).


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## Cyklown

Yes, but why not just kill enough warriors instead?

I mean, a 2/27 chance to kill something per shot is something I'd generally find a way around, not something I'd throw myself into.


As for the Hadron colider:
On a 5+ the Eldar still win. You didn't realize that everything was _supposed_ to go boom.


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## Stephen_Newman

LOL do not forget that this improves to a 4+ if the eldar were not even there.


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## Cyklown

Exactly! <3


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## FiresOfBattle

Just a ? could you not just BL mephiston? or Lascanon, or other comparable tank busting gun.

You cant ID mephiston, his stats are on GW site: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat400010a&prodId=prod1100003
T 6. 
I think Necrons need a new codex, they dont have much anti tank.


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## TheKingElessar

FiresOfBattle said:


> I think Necrons need a new codex, they dont have much anti tank.


Luckily, so does GW.k:


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## Winterous

FiresOfBattle said:


> JYou cant ID mephiston,


Well you can, you just need a special condition ID, like the Swarmlord


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## Cyklown

Or *shudder* wraithcannon. Or Daemon weapons, or...

The list goes on.

As for necrons...

Necrons need a new codex like I need a large stack of bearer bonds to myseriously apear in my backpack.


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## Stephen_Newman

Totally some extra troop choices would be very welcome i would expect. Although any ideas on what they could be?


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## FiresOfBattle

Extra Troops for Necrons? HMMMMMM a slighly cheeper Troops uint. with lower save (4+,5+)


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## Bindi Baji

going by some comments I am aware of, the only plans for necrons troops is to move flayed ones across, along with scarabs, this could of course change by the time the codex is finished.


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## MaidenManiac

Rest assured folks, the 1nt3rw3bz whining will never end. I actually fully believe that the DE players still will stand for 80% of all whining even after new codex, mostly complaining about not having 2 DL on 10 warriors or something similar....

Its gonna feel damn sweet to say "well you asked for a new Codex..." though :laugh:



Bindi Baji said:


> going by some comments I am aware of, the only plans for necrons troops is to move flayed ones across, along with scarabs, this could of course change by the time the codex is finished.


Moving Flayed Ones to troops sounds very likely. They simply aint "elite" enough to fit there. Giving them rending too would be sufficient to make them useful. Wonder if Scarabs will retain their turbo boost ability as troops, sounds like a nono to me?


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## FiresOfBattle

yea...TB for troops, not likely..


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## Stephen_Newman

It happens on Eldar Jetbikes so why not scarab swarms.


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## TheKingElessar

Remember also, that without some sort of Special Rule (like, say, a Character), Swarms cannot score...


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## Blue Liger

What TKE said I don't mid them having TurboBoost as they can't score whilst the eldar bikes can they cost alot more, now allowing De to field jetbikes as troops would be fun or after (hopefully they do) improving the mandrakes actaully put in the codex the shadow army allowing mandrakes as troops and hopefully bringing other new shadow like units to the game to make a buildinga very themed shadow army possible


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## Winterous

Blue Liger said:


> put in the codex the shadow army allowing mandrakes as troops and hopefully bringing other new shadow like units to the game to make a buildinga very themed shadow army possible


Quite likely, considering the trend of having some HQ choices affect the FOC in some way.


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## Lust God Flunky

Whish I had found this site sooner! I am excited for a new DE codex and re-done minatures. I can finally get rid of my pajama-wearing warriors and show my friends that they're not just sissies with cool rides.


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## Catpain Rich

Lust God Flunky said:


> Whish I had found this site sooner! I am excited for a new DE codex and re-done minatures. I can finally get rid of my pajama-wearing warriors and show my friends that they're not just sissies with cool rides.


Don't get too excited, we've been hearing rumours about the DE codex for years :wink:


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## Cyklown

Well, they'll still be a bunch of poofta's with sweet rides. That's just something to be proud of, not ashamed of.


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## Blue Liger

Ahem slightly disturbed pooftas with sweet rides and drugs


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## Sethis

Cyklown said:


> Well, they'll still be a bunch of poofta's with sweet rides. That's just something to be proud of, not ashamed of.


Cos Eldar players are ones to talk! :laugh:


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## Winterous

Sethis said:


> Cos Eldar players are ones to talk! :laugh:


At least they aren't in to S&M.


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## Cyklown

They may very well be. The fluff doesn't tell us. The fluff does tell us that consent goes riiight out the window as far as Dark Eldar are concerned. As such, they aren't into S&M. Given their attitudes towards other sentient races they might be classifiable as being into, well... they see all other life as cattle, right? And yet they still go at it with 'em.



And yes, I am quite proud of the fact that my "car" is better than yours and the fact that this carapace armour makes my ass look _fantastic_.


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## Sethis

It feels like I'm wearing nothing at all... nothing at all... nothing at all...

:laugh:


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## Cyklown

Oh, so you've heard about my "we're only wearing bodypaint" Harlequin conversion project idea?!


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

> It feels like I'm wearing nothing at all... nothing at all... nothing at all...


Stupid sexy Sethis!


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## bobss

Sethis said:


> It feels like I'm wearing nothing at all... nothing at all... nothing at all...
> 
> :laugh:


You Metal Gear fucker! 

.. You cannot imagine what it is like to have a Solid Snake obsessive as a friend, though counter-wise, I doubt he enjoys my own fanboy trends and how I love every Anime character he hates...


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## Cyklown

bobss said:


> You Metal Gear fucker!
> 
> .. You cannot imagine what it is like to have a Solid Snake obsessive as a friend, though counter-wise, I doubt he enjoys my own fanboy trends and how I love every Anime character he hates...


Well, to be fair, they all remind him of that little doofus Raiden. I mean, I like a smattering of anime, a smattering of anime and am a big fan of the games, and I hate that little useless puffball. In a manga where they're not the main character they're amusing. When I'm forced to run around as them, well, lets just say I enjoyed the whole Raiden gets captured a tad too much. Playing the "letting the naked man get shot to bits" game is fun.


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## Sethis

...

I was thinking of the Simpsons episode with Flanders in a Ski suit, to be honest... But that works too! :laugh:


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## Stephen_Newman

That was my first thought. Did not see the other comparisons.


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