# What it takes to be a Daemon Prince



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

OK, we all read the stories, we play the game, and read the fluff. Yet it seems odd as to what acts are DP worthy. There are MANY DPs in BL stories, some are as old as the Heresy, commiting acts of unimaginable horror, and finnaly rise to Daemonhood. 
Others turn chaos, and within mere centuries rise to Daemonhood.
Finaly you have those that serve and perform the most horrible acts and remain mortal. Ahriman, Kharn, Typhus, and Lucious comes to mind since no fluff explains why they could not be raise to Daemonhood like their Primarchs. They sure as hell earn it.
Anywho just wanted some thoughts as to why some take forever to be raise to daemonhood, and others will never reach it. I know Chaos cannot be explain or have reason, but thats a cop out excuse , Champions know when they earn their gods favore or will reach DP lvl as fluff shows time again.


----------



## PapaSmurf124 (Mar 28, 2010)

To be honest, I think the Gods really don't give a crap what happens. It's all a game to them. I bet you they roll their own dice for their champion, depending on the magnitude of the deed the champion has done, and depending on the outcome decides whether to give them a power, mutation, DP, or just hang out and wait until next time lol


----------



## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

They serve as exemplars of followers. They do more "good" as mortal agents of their gods perhaps? The gods do need champions.
Ahriman seems like he would hate to be a DP.
Kharn wouldn't want to take time from killing for ceremonies. 
And I don't have anything funny for the other two.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think in order to become a Daemon Prince one would have to consult with the Chaos Powers and make a bargain of some sort. After many years of servitude then perhaps there will be a specific task assigned in which the result could mean the end of that chaos champion or lord or his ascending to an immortal daemon prince. 

There are rare accounts of such an event but in Storm of Iron that was the case of the Warsmith that led the Iron Warrior company before Honsou did.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Or it could be that chaos is just bat shit crazy, and decisions about who is to be elevated to daemon hood is a award randomly given to anyone as long as someone they have done something somewhere that the gods like, and they just happened to feel like making more demi gods at the time.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

In regards to why some are not elevated to the rank of dameon prince, Kharn, Ahriman, Typhus, and Lucius for example. Its because a daemon prince sheds his/her mortal form and becomes a daemon, a warp entity who needs a vessel in order to remain in the material realm, or for the bonds between the warp and reality to be thin or shattered.

The four champions of the gods, heralds in their own rights, they can and have been doing more in the name of their respective gods as mortal champions. Its like Abbadon, they do not ascend to daemonhood because they do not want to, they refuse it because daemonhood can offer them nothing more than what they already have, do, or desire.


For other champions of chaos, much the same can be said; and in the case of those who do the most horrible things over long periods of time and becomes princes vs those who do much less in short periods, well keep in mind that the gods would obviously favour the first over the second more. They both have just done things that have earned them the favour of a given god, one would likely be more powerful than the other though.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I think in order to become a Daemon Prince one would have to consult with the Chaos Powers and make a bargain of some sort. After many years of servitude then perhaps there will be a specific task assigned in which the result could mean the end of that chaos champion or lord or his ascending to an immortal daemon prince.


Not exactly. Heres some quotes which may help the topic:



Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14 said:


> The greatest champions and warlords of mortals spend their lives longing for the brief moment that they attract the gaze of the gods, hoping to be granted the power and immortality for which they have strived.





Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14 said:


> Each mortal life is such a brief flicker in the long existence of Chaos that they barely register on the consciouness of a Ruinous Power, if they register at all. Yet there are occasions when a life burns more brightly for an instant, and this may attract the attention of one of more gods.





Chaos Daemons Codex Page 23 said:


> Even the great feats of the most successful Chaos Champions only attract the attention of their patron for a brief instant, maybe enough for the god to grant the loyal follower a gift of mutation or a mighty weapon to further its works. Ever so rarely, however, the Gods might bestow that one prize every Champion covets - to be lifted from his mortal condition into the Realm of Chaos, to be reborn in mind and body as a mighty Daemon Prince.


----------



## PapaSmurf124 (Mar 28, 2010)

darkreever said:


> In regards to why some are not elevated to the rank of dameon prince, Kharn, Ahriman, Typhus, and Lucius for example. Its because a daemon prince sheds his/her mortal form and becomes a daemon, a warp entity who needs a vessel in order to remain in the material realm, or for the bonds between the warp and reality to be thin or shattered.
> 
> The four champions of the gods, heralds in their own rights, they can and have been doing more in the name of their respective gods as mortal champions. Its like Abbadon, they do not ascend to daemonhood because they do not want to, they refuse it because daemonhood can offer them nothing more than what they already have, do, or desire.
> 
> ...


That was a pretty good way of putting it lol


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

darkreever said:


> In regards to why some are not elevated to the rank of dameon prince, Kharn, Ahriman, Typhus, and Lucius for example. Its because a daemon prince sheds his/her mortal form and becomes a daemon, a warp entity who needs a vessel in order to remain in the material realm, or for the bonds between the warp and reality to be thin or shattered.
> 
> The four champions of the gods, heralds in their own rights, they can and have been doing more in the name of their respective gods as mortal champions. Its like Abbadon, they do not ascend to daemonhood because they do not want to, they refuse it because daemonhood can offer them nothing more than what they already have, do, or desire.
> 
> ...



There is some good points that make alot of sense. I can see why those fatfule four would remain Mortal form. 

On a side not since their Heralds and greatest mortal champs of their gods, is too much that they have EW like Abbaddon in the game? Lucious cant die, Khorn has died twice already to comeback from his wounds, WTF?




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not exactly. Heres some quotes which may help the topic:





> Originally Posted by Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14, Daemonic Incursions
> The greatest champions and warlords of mortals spend their lives longing for the brief moment that they attract the gaze of the gods, hoping to be granted the power and immortality for which they have strived.





> Originally Posted by Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14, Daemonic Incursions
> Each mortal life is such a brief flicker in the long existence of Chaos that they barely register on the consciouness of a Ruinous Power, if they register at all. Yet there are occasions when a life burns more brightly for an instant, and this may attract the attention of one of more gods.





> Originally Posted by Chaos Daemons Codex Page 23, Chaos and Mankind
> Even the great feats of the most successful Chaos Champions only attract the attention of their patron for a brief instant, maybe enough for the god to grant the loyal follower a gift of mutation or a mighty weapon to further its works. Ever so rarely, however, the Gods might bestow that one prize every Champion covets - to be lifted from his mortal condition into the Realm of Chaos, to be reborn in mind and body as a mighty Daemon Prince.


That last actually explains alot. Its all getting Mama Slannesh or Papa Nurgles attention for gifts and toys. So what does that make Khorn? Abusive Father? Tzeentch is Know It All Uncle? Hmmmmm......


----------



## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

> Ahriman, Kharn, Typhus, and Lucious comes to mind since no fluff explains why they could not be raise to Daemonhood like their Primarchs


The fact that their bosses have already ascended probably has something to do with it.

Don't forget Kor Phaeron and Erebus, they've probably done more for the cause of Chaos than those four combined.

The interesting thing about the above Champions is that none of them are horribly mutated (except for Typhus signature power, which isn't visible in his normal form). Where are the horns, goat legs, fish eyes, and tentacles? Other than the usual rot suffered by Nurgle worshippers, it seems such disfigurements are only the bane of lesser Champions. It's hardly a "gift" if success, albeit of a less than super-stellar nature, leads you to get one.

That Iron Warriors warsmith probably got the job because Chaos Undivided needs a replacement for the worthless do-nothing that is Perturabo. It also prompts the question of how, if the Iron Warriors really do discourage Chaos worship, that warsmith got to the top.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

randian said:


> That Iron Warriors warsmith probably got the job because Chaos Undivided needs a replacement for the worthless do-nothing that is Perturabo. It also prompts the question of how, if the Iron Warriors really do discourage Chaos worship, that warsmith got to the top.


No actually the Warsmith had made a deal with the ruinous powers to get all that geneseed for the Warmaster and his crusade in return with imortality and his ascention to daemonhood. It wasn't like he was worshiping chaos. And the gift of immortality is one that is a great gift indeed. If turning to Khorne is the easiest, then I can't imagine how much worship there really is in the ranks of the Iron Warriors. In the book Iron Warrior that one bezerker for the Iron Warriors was the last to ever worship the god of blood. And until then there was only that bezerker squad in the legion.

"Honsou was reminded of Kroegar, the last Iron Warrior to tread the path of the Blood God, and where it had led."

All the traitor legions use chaos in one form or another but it doesn't require worship. In this case the Iron Warriors like mutating their weapons and machines to make them stronger.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> The fact that their bosses have already ascended probably has something to do with it.
> 
> Don't forget Kor Phaeron and Erebus, they've probably done more for the cause of Chaos than those four combined.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Considering 'For the most part the Chaos Gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals' and the vast majority of their consciousness the vast majority of the time is focused in the warp on the Great Game of Chaos - this is what all of the Daemon-Primarchs are concerned with, fighting in the Great Game. Why would they want to invade or raid the Imperium when they have already achieved Daemonhood? (unless they had desires of revenge) - My point generally is that considering the Great Game is by far the most important priority to the Chaos Gods and that is what the Daemon Primarchs are involved in, they are generally doing more for the Chaos Gods than fanatical mortals are.



Codex Chaos Space Marines page 32 said:


> ...the Daemon Primarchs are content to wage wars against their enemies within the Eye of Terror...


----------



## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> No actually the Warsmith had made a deal with the ruinous powers to get all that geneseed for the Warmaster and his crusade in return with imortality and his ascention to daemonhood. It wasn't like he was worshiping chaos.


If he wasn't worshipping Chaos, why did he have all those Chaos powers? Don't you recall the nasty side effects his subordinates suffered just standing next to him? Why would the Ruinous Powers offer daemonhood to somebody who wasn't worshiping them?

For Chaos, acts are worship. Khorne doesn't want piety, he wants skulls. Something similar goes for the other three. The Iron Warriors do more to advance the cause of Chaos than most formal Chaos cults. They provide great support for the Dark Mechanicus. They practice daemonic possession of both people and machines. They employ sorcerers. They conduct great wars. They venerate Perturabo, a _Daemon Primarch_ for Tzeentch's sake. If they aren't Chaos worshipers, it's a distinction without a difference.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And the gift of all that geneseed to Abaddon was part of the agreement that meant the Iron Warriors were excused from directly supporting the Black Legion in the 13th Black Crusade.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

randian said:


> If he wasn't worshipping Chaos, why did he have all those Chaos powers? Don't you recall the nasty side effects his subordinates suffered just standing next to him? Why would the Ruinous Powers offer daemonhood to somebody who wasn't worshiping them?


Again one doesn't have to worship the chaos powers to obtain its gifts. That warsmith was part of Perturabo's personal body guard even before the betrayel so its not to surprising he would have the gifts he has. Performing simple deeds as you said could be a manner of worship, however, it wouldn't be the same as straight out worship. There are followers of khorne as there are to any other gods. Its the way they chose to live out their lives that displays their worship and so doing; directly worshiping the gods means one does all and everything the gods require. Traitors who do not worship and use it as a tool, only really do the gods desire on their terms, and more as a bargaining tool(even though the gods get a better deal out of it). Simple slaughter to khorne for example even though desirable would mean a lot more to him in a grander scheme... like a grand invasion of the imperium.



Baron Spikey said:


> And the gift of all that geneseed to Abaddon was part of the agreement that meant the Iron Warriors were excused from directly supporting the Black Legion in the 13th Black Crusade.


Ah yes, but Warsmith had plans of his own in which would benefit him... they stole a crap load of that geneseed for their own agenda, if they didn't take it all. After all, there are no accounts of the gene seed ever getting to the Despoiler. Not to mention his gift of immortality.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If the Iron Warriors had gone back on their end of the bargain theyd have been bitch slapped, theey're no where near as powerful as the Black Legion and Abaddon would certainly have seeked reprisals over such a valuable resource.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> If the Iron Warriors had gone back on their end of the bargain theyd have been bitch slapped, theey're no where near as powerful as the Black Legion and Abaddon would certainly have seeked reprisals over such a valuable resource.


Would be interesting to know what Abaddon would actually do. If he was in a crusade, I would assume he would be very pissed off but unable to do anything (considering he would need all the man power he needed). I think in order to destroy the Iron Warriors Legion or at least put it into submission, it would require a quite sizable force if you think about the fact they are the best siege and fortificationists of all the legions except perhaps the imperial fists. It would probably also require Abbadon's personal attention due to the fact he would be "awakening" or at least disturbing Perturabo from his pouting chair. I also have to say I think attacking the fortresses of a expert like Perturabo would be different than attacking the Cadian Gate, it could essentially be a lot harder as the Iron Warriors are a legion and they have millions of cultists and slaves to do their work. It would take way too much from Abbadon's Crusade if he turned his attention to him.

Brigannion Four for example was part of the Black Legion and was left to be devoured by several other traitors and legions. The Iron Warriors now claim it. If the Black Legion really had that much power they could have just taken it back they haven't as they really need a "strategically important world" near the cadian gate. 

"At first Abbadon won the Grudging respect of the surviving Traitor Legions, but as his deeds have grown bolder and mightier, respect is turning into support. His impassioned words have fanned the smouldering dissent of the Traitor Legions into raging fires of hatred." - Pg. 22 CSM Codex

This appears to be a more volunatary move instead of forceful by the traitor legions, however as you have stated in the "Storm of Iron," it appears that the Iron Warriors wanted to stay away from the 13th Crusade but in so doing, would need to perform a task for their absence to be "Accepted". If I put both facts together I can only assume that the Black Legion and the Iron Warriors have some sort of alliegence in which somehow the Iron Warriors are benefitting from it. Perhaps for ancient technology and sorcery. So I assume that if the Iron Warriors had failed with their end of the bargain, they would in turn have their "funding" being stopped. The Night Lords for example aren't being forced into a Black Crusade, though if I'm wrong then let me know, as I haven't read their latest book yet.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

If the story of perturbos asscenson is anything to go by, where in a siege he completely slaughtered the imperial fists, attacking IW fortifications is generally a bad idea.

I think the gods give gifts for fun, to see what happens. Spawn are champions that have been given too many gifts. What really is the difference between spawn and princes in terms of achievements? Chaos is the essence of entropy, the gods enjoy giving gifts. The gods must care otherwise why get involved in the first place and send some of thier most powerful herelds to intervene in mortal universe


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Would be interesting to know what Abaddon would actually do. If he was in a crusade, I would assume he would be very pissed off but unable to do anything (considering he would need all the man power he needed). I think in order to destroy the Iron Warriors Legion or at least put it into submission, it would require a quite sizable force if you think about the fact they are the best siege and fortificationists of all the legions except perhaps the imperial fists. It would probably also require Abbadon's personal attention due to the fact he would be "awakening" or at least disturbing Perturabo from his pouting chair. I also have to say I think attacking the fortresses of a expert like Perturabo would be different than attacking the Cadian Gate, it could essentially be a lot harder as the Iron Warriors are a legion and they have millions of cultists and slaves to do their work. It would take way too much from Abbadon's Crusade if he turned his attention to him.
> 
> Brigannion Four for example was part of the Black Legion and was left to be devoured by several other traitors and legions. The Iron Warriors now claim it. If the Black Legion really had that much power they could have just taken it back they haven't as they really need a "strategically important world" near the cadian gate.
> 
> ...


The Black Legion outnumber the Word Bearers Legion 10:1. Its safe to assume they therefore also outnumber the Iron Warriors roughly 10:1. The Iron Warriors cannot afford to openly defy Abaddon. Although I agree with most of what you said 



ckcrawford said:


> The Night Lords for example aren't being forced into a Black Crusade, though if I'm wrong then let me know, as I haven't read their latest book yet.


Maybe not directly forced. They could probably get away with not getting involved. But for the most part the Traitor Legions recognise that Abaddon is the most dominant Chaos Lord and is Warmaster, they realise that in order to do the most damage to the Imperium they have to aid him.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Black Legion outnumber the Word Bearers Legion 10:1. Its safe to assume they therefore also outnumber the Iron Warriors roughly 10:1. The Iron Warriors cannot afford to openly defy Abaddon. Although I agree with most of what you said


You would also have to assume that the Iron Warriors as a whole accept the fact that he has some sort of dominance over them. If you take a look at Honsou, I would think that he doesn't really give a squat about the other Warsmiths.

I think the invasion of an Iron Warrior planet would be an entirely different issue. He would be facing a primarch for one, that excels in fortification and siege. The Black Legion is pretty much a tide of men washing away the cadian gates. I think the fight for the most part would be even to say the least. Unless of course the Iron Warrior were dumb enough to not use their home turf... 

Again, I think we are seeing the Despoiler in the light that he would actually spend time and effort to get retribution. If he did this, the other Chaos legions would see him as too controlling and he would be screwed. Abaddon has used his respect to get support as my previous quote on the CSM book has said. Not force. The Black Legion would be better off recieving support off the other legion's and traitors on their own terms. Abaddon can ill afford to have parts of his legion seperating from his legion, after all thats what his component is.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

He wouldn't be attempting to control the Iron Warriros as a whole he would merely be attempting to obliterate the members of that Legion that had betrayed him, if he didn't take some punitive action he would appear weak and I doubt many of the Warsmiths would rally to Honsou's aid if he'd broken his side of a pact with the powerful Black Legion.

The Night Lords, as Child said, wouldn't be directly forced but I can imagine they'd receive a warning along the lines of '_We'll remember your refusal_' etc if they didn't toe the line at least partially.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Wow, this thread deviated from the topic pretty quickly. 

To get back to the original point, champions remain champions mostly for the sake of their own ambitions. I doubt any of them truly want to become a pawn of chaos, and are more than content with the power they already wield.
And in Ahriman`s case, he does not even serve chaos. Despite what is written in his rules (for gaming purposes only I assume) he believes himself a free agent, though it is written in DoW Tempest that his actions serve Tzeentch more than he himself would like to admit. That explains him at least.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> You would also have to assume that the Iron Warriors as a whole accept the fact that he has some sort of dominance over them. If you take a look at Honsou, I would think that he doesn't really give a squat about the other Warsmiths.
> 
> I think the invasion of an Iron Warrior planet would be an entirely different issue. He would be facing a primarch for one, that excels in fortification and siege. The Black Legion is pretty much a tide of men washing away the cadian gates. I think the fight for the most part would be even to say the least. Unless of course the Iron Warrior were dumb enough to not use their home turf...
> 
> Again, I think we are seeing the Despoiler in the light that he would actually spend time and effort to get retribution. If he did this, the other Chaos legions would see him as too controlling and he would be screwed. Abaddon has used his respect to get support as my previous quote on the CSM book has said. Not force. The Black Legion would be better off recieving support off the other legion's and traitors on their own terms. Abaddon can ill afford to have parts of his legion seperating from his legion, after all thats what his component is.


Well I think its fairly safe to assume that the Black Legion and Iron Warriors have fought wars amongst themselves at some point since the Heresy, as have all the Traitor Legions with one another.

The Black Legion has the means to defeat the Iron Warriors, plain and simple. But the Iron Warriors would not be stupid enough to openly defy Abaddon thus not bringing upon themselves an unwinnable war. But we have to remember that if such a case of affairs arose Abaddon wouldn't declare war on the entire Iron Warriors Legion, only the warband(s) that defied or offended him, and I doubt many, if any other Iron Warriors warbands would rush to the aid of the warband that Abaddon seeks vengeance on. But its not just about seeking revenge, Abaddon is the Warmaster and although a lot of other Chaos Astartes/Legions hate him (Word Bearers from the Word Bearers Series, Night Lords from the Night Lords series being prominent examples) they still realise he is top dog. Abaddon cannot appear weak, he cannot let people slip through his justice. If he percieves people to have betrayed him, they have to be punished, if not he will lose the respect/support of the Traitor Legions he has worked so hard to earn.



We also have to remember as well that there is a strong precedent in _Soul Hunter_ of Abaddon taking revenge as a priority over survival/victory. He percieves the Warband of the Exalted (Night Lords Warband) as having betrayed him and as surface combat breaks out between the Black Legion and Night Lords, the Night Lords attempt to flee the scene as Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, Abaddon focuses on trying to destroy the Night Lords rather than focus entirely on the incoming Imperial Fleet.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

(in regards to the Spoiler) That make Abbaddon seem straight out stupid and out of character.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> (in regards to the Spoiler) That make Abbaddon seem straight out stupid and out of character.


What makes you say that?


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> (in regards to the Spoiler) That make Abbaddon seem straight out stupid and out of character.


Out of character? Unless you've been holding out on us I don't see how you know anything more about Abaddon than the rest of us, considering one of the few things we know about Abaddon is that he plunged further into the depths madness than any man could there's not all that much info on his character and personality post-heresy.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

His daddy died. Wouldn`t that make anybody sad?


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> (in regards to the Spoiler) That make Abbaddon seem straight out stupid and out of character.


I can see what you mean by stupid, but out of character I'm not sure. He's been mad dog ever since he became warmaster. I personally think Abaddon would risk "waking" the primarchs and pissing them off by interfering too much in the traitor legions business'. As far as I know none of the primarchs have recognized Abaddon as Warmaster. And as such I'm not sure primarchs would bow down to a lesser being (not a primarch). And as CoE said, he didn't think the Iron Warriors would be "stupid" enough to openly defy the Warmaster. I don't think its much stupidity than it is pride. And marines have known to do "stupid" things in the name of pride. I mean Honsou almost had his whole company anhilated just to defy his rival warsmiths. In none of the Iron Warrior books (Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, Iron Warrior)do they refer to abaddon as the "warmaster" but as the despoiler. Heres a little clip from Iron Warrior.


Honsou sensed their confusion and waited to see who would speak first.
"Horus Lupercal?" spat Grendel. "That Warmaster?"
Honsou shook his head. "No, the Despoiler."
Grendel gave a harsh bark of laugher. "Then you'd best not heed her words, for they did Abaddon no good. That fool has been sent packing with his tail between his legs more times than I've killed the dogs of the Emperor."
"Im well award of that, Grendel," said Honsou, "but the Despoiler's failings are his own."

Page 11 (Iron Warrior)


In Storm of Iron it didn't sound like the Warsmith gave didly squat about "the despoiler" and his orders but more about his "own purposes."


"We come to this world at the behest of the Despoiler, but it is for my purposes that we do what we must. There is a fortress here that contains something precious to me, and I would see it in my possession soon."

Page 56 (Storm of Iron)

As we can see its all about him, not the Despoiler. Hes basically saying we were told to be here but we are really here for ME!:threaten: This might be him being stupid but it shows how his popularity with the traitor legions is far more mixed with "respect" and shame.


----------

