# Versus: Wraithknights



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

A thread in which we try to allay the fears of big damn robots ruining everyone's game. A few things to remember that a few people have gotten confused about or simply forgotten:

1. Gargantuan Creatures automatically have Feel No Pain, but _not_ It Will Not Die. I myself was guilty of thinking that this was a thing until recently.
2. The Wraithknight does not get an Invulnerable *and* a ranged Destroyer weapon - it has to choose between ranged Destroyer or the Shield.
3. While it does have 12" move unhindered by cover for being a Jump Gargantuan Creature and has Move Through Cover, it does not ignore the Initiative Penalty for charging through terrain with it's large base.
4. Gargantuan Creatures are only wounded on 6s by Poison and Sniper weapons, but any other fixed value wounding will still work; Deathmarks, Fleshbane, Agonisers if they still work how they did in the old book; 'Unstoppable' does not give you blanket defence from fixed to wound rolls. Also, they're not quite _immune_ to Instant Death; they just take large amounts of wounds instead of rolling over and dying straight away. Sure, it's not as good, but if you can Instant Death then do so. Works for Fantasy, works for 40k.
5. While Eldar can have a considerable number of psychic dice, they don't have access to psychic defence from Psychic Hoods, and so getting Maledictions through is surprisingly easy. Gargantuans are no longer immune to psychic powers, if you're a grognard like me who remembers that being a thing.

*Adepta Sororitas:* You know the drill - throw mountains of Str8 AP1 at the problem. If it goes away, gravy. If it doesn't, you die horribly. Business as usual.

*Astra Militarum:* Lascannons with Fire On My Target/Bring It Down, Vendettas, the Paskisher, Plasma Vets if you're really stuck. _Huge_ potential from Psychic Powers; Misfortune and FRFSRF or a charge will give a WK a really hard time, Enfeeble from Wyrdvanes can make it a lot more manageable etc.

*Blood Angels:* Similar to Sisters, fire lots of Meltas but you can also bring Lascannons and Stormravens with their Meltas and Missiles to mix it up a bit. You can try and torrent an already-wounded one in combat due to Str5 on the charge. Power Fists and their ilk going to Str9 on the charge can do some considerable damage. Access to Divination means you can get Misfortune and do that old trick, albeit to a lesser extent because Bolters aren't as numerous as Lasguns (on the other hand, it also works in melee, so charging in with Death Company with Astorath to give them Shred or something similar could be an amusing counter).

*Chaos Space Marines:* Try and rush it with Maulerfiends? Blastmaster spam? Fuck, I don't know. Sorry guys. Black Mace Daemon Prince will fuck up a Wraithknight _royally_ but you're gonna have to land, not die, and still be able to catch it afterwards. Still, a lot of sass points if you actually do it.

*Chaos Daemons:* Daemonettes are the name of the game here, but most of the Greater Daemons can at least chip a few wounds off. Plaguebearers only wound on 6s, but that's better than not wounding at all. Use Malefic, summon up a bunch of Daemonettes, profit. Tarpit with Grimoire-augmented units and hope for bad Stomp rolls.

*Dark Angels:* Hammernators and Deathwing Knights. Rad Grenade Launchers and/or Misfortune from your Divination access followed by Bolters R Us or Plasma Talons from your Bikers/LRCs and Black Knights. Charging it with Corvus Hammers is stupid enough that it might actually work. Rad Grenades are gonna be pretty central to the plan here since they're a really nice debuff (double points if you get an Allied Enfeeble to make it T6).

*Dark Eldar:* Poison only wounding on 6s is a bummer, but when you're firing 120 shots a turn you can still push some through. Use those bajillion Dark Lances you have to chip away at it. Charge with Caltrop Reavers for sass points. Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets would be hilarious if you rolled lucky.

*Eldar:* What the fuck are you doing reading this? Bladestorm, Warp Spiders and Wraith-guys, you're super fine.

*Grey Knights:* Daemonhammers are your go-to here, probably on Dreadknights for the mobility (WS5 and Sanctuary means you can even have a go at the Sword and Board Wraithknights if you feel gutsy), but your entire army works. Hammerhand up (Halberds being useful, who'd have thought!?) and Force away. Psycannons will eventually chip wounds away but probably not worth doing. Vortex of Doom if that's a thing. Soul Glaive will make them have a big sad with Hammerhand up.

*Harlequins:* Fog of Dreams, Laugh of Sorrows, Mask of Secrets; Armour of Misery, Dominate and Psychic Shriek from Allied dudes. Do your usual leadership shenanigans and laugh at the silly Craftworlders.

*Imperial Knights:* If they have the Wraithcannons, charge at the earliest opportunity. If they have the Suncannon, laugh in the Eldar player's face and make him try and charge you through cover. If they have the Sword and Board, try and stick to cover to make him strike at I1 so you can punk him before he swings and does it to you. The one time you bring a Magaera and it gets a wound through with it's Rad-Cleanser is an occasion worthy of song. Still not a real faction.

*Khorne Daemonkin:* Bloodthirsters are probably all you've got, although gunning for lucky 6s on Bloodletters is a reasonable plan if you can reach melee. If Skulltaker still does his Brutal Legend decapitation thing, worth a shot. 

*Necrons:* Lychguard with Scythes (make sure you pop that Solar Staff when you get out of the Night Scythe so you don't die before you hit combat), Tesla Destructors, massed Warriors, Flayed Ones if you can get them Furious Charge from Zahndrekh, Deathmarks using their Interception thing to get Fleshbane, Wraiths, massed Warrior fire if you need to take the last wound or two off.

*Orks:* Klaws, Lootas, Klaws, Mega-Kannons, Klaws, Big Choppas, Klaws, Tankbustas. Charge with Bully Boyz and wreck it with Killsaws (sure, you'll lose some to the WK's swings, but considering StrD is actually less deadly for Meganobz than Str10 is, you're not going to lose a whole squad since you're WS5 and you don't need many Str9 AP2 attacks to make a WK have a sad). Shokk Attack Guns if you have loaded dice.

*Space Marines:* Grav Centurions, Hammernators, Lysander, Biker Chapter Master, Misfortune/Enfeeble from Tiggy/Loth, Grav-Guns on Bikes or in Pods. Grav makes you probably the second or third best army set for killing a WK after Eldar themselves.

*Space Wolves:* Thunderwolf Cavalry is probably the way to go. Wraithknight will struggle with Storm Shields without rolling lucky 6s and you can mess them up pretty good with massed Rending and Str10 Power Fists. Charge it with Blizzard Shield Dreadnoughts if that works for a laugh.

*Tau:* Monster Hunter HYMP and massed Railguns/Fusion Blasters. Storm of Fire and Fireblade with some Markerlights if you've stopped giving a shit. You really, really aren't going to struggle.

*Tyranids:* Anything with a lot of attacks and Rending Claws, Toxicrene for a funny and reasonably legit counter, massed Implant Attack if you feel lucky, Boneswords if you can roll 6s. Paroxysm taking it down to WS1 BS1 is amusing. Swarmlord with some Tyrant Guard to take the D for him should might do it if you can get Furious Charge or Preferred Enemy or something. Gargoyles with Blinding Venom.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks! 

Now we just wait for a new Chaos codex and a way to deal with things like this...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Uveron said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Now we just wait for a new Chaos codex and a way to deal with things like this...


Yeah, Chaos isn't in a great place. Obliterators or Predators with Lascannons do the job but too slowly; a Crimson Slaughter Sorceror with the Divination Relic for Misfortune is good if you can get it; Noise Marines with Blastmasters again, will take too many rounds of shooting for me to say they're a 'good' counter; and Chaos melee units aren't *really* up for the job most of the time. Maulerfiends could do it, I think, especially with Lasher Tendrils taking the Wraithknight down to only two attacks, but throwing walkers at a higher Initiative and Weapon Skill opponent with a Destroyer close combat weapon is dicey at best (if it has the Wraithcannons or Suncannon then go nuts, you should be able to kill it in short order).


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, Chaos isn't in a great place. Obliterators or Predators with Lascannons do the job but too slowly; a Crimson Slaughter Sorceror with the Divination Relic for Misfortune is good if you can get it; Noise Marines with Blastmasters again, will take too many rounds of shooting for me to say they're a 'good' counter; and Chaos melee units aren't *really* up for the job most of the time. Maulerfiends could do it, I think, especially with Lasher Tendrils taking the Wraithknight down to only two attacks, but throwing walkers at a higher Initiative and Weapon Skill opponent with a Destroyer close combat weapon is dicey at best (if it has the Wraithcannons or Suncannon then go nuts, you should be able to kill it in short order).


Last time I took one out I mobed it with Cultists and used two lords with a Powerfist to smash it. And as its not a Charitor it could not target the Lords within the 40+ Cultists that I had around it. 

I think the same plan will have to be used going forward.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Huh, did not know that it wasn't a character. Neat.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

So the Chaos plan is bubblewrap and spank. 

If we can catch it.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> So the Chaos plan is bubblewrap and spank.


Which is slowly becoming the for Chaos against all things!


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I wonder if there's a good way to telegraph that as an army dynamic? 

Use cultists as the anchors and the high mobility, high impact characters/units to respond to threats?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Chaos Space Marines: Try and rush it with Maulerfiends? Blastmaster spam? Fuck, I don't know. Sorry guys. Black Mace Daemon Prince will fuck up a Wraithknight royally but you're gonna have to land, not die, and still be able to catch it afterwards. Still, a lot of sass points if you actually do it.


Blastmasters only able to get up to one hit per turn makes that a dicey proposition (for a whole lotof points in support of fielding that one blasmaster). I've had to pull it a few times, and it takes most of my army's shooting (4-6 blastmasters, Forgefiend, maybe 2 Havoc squads) for several turns to get the Wraithknight down to a few wounds before the Wraithknight charges in and I get a lucky 6 to wound with my Sorcerer's Force Axe to ID it. That's how it's played out multiple times, honestly. And now the ID is only doing D3 wounds, so... the rest of the army shooting for a few turns to get that unreliable result is still necessary.

Alternatively I guess you could take 15 Havocs with 12 lascannons/missile launchers, alongside 15 Chosen with meltas/plasma guns, and just let that rip. You opponent will be killing those squads as fast as they can, but...



MidnightSun said:


> Rad Grenades are gonna be pretty central to the plan here since they're a really nice debuff (double points if you get an Allied Enfeeble to make it T6).


Speaking of Rad Grenades, I imagine an Inquisitor could pull the same. Plus, say, a Skitarii Vanguard squad in combat, supported by some sort of thunder hammer or power fist.

Mostly just having fun thinking about stacking T debuffs, but... I suppose it does point out to me that Skitarii are a thing, now, too. Ballistarii with lascannons, etc. Radium jezzails dealing 2 AP2 wounds on 6s to wound. Etc.




Uveron said:


> Last time I took one out I mobed it with Cultists and used two lords with a Powerfist to smash it. And as its not a Charitor it could not target the Lords within the 40+ Cultists that I had around it.
> 
> I think the same plan will have to be used going forward.


One things: Wraithknights have stomp now. So not only will they clear your cultists several times faster, if they roll a 6 while the template is on top of your Lord--poof!

"Hope that your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on Stomp or the D-table" is such a shitty survivability mechanic.



MidnightSun said:


> Chaos Daemons: Daemonettes are the name of the game here, but most of the Greater Daemons can at least chip a few wounds off. Plaguebearers only wound on 6s, but that's better than not wounding at all. Use Malefic, summon up a bunch of Daemonettes, profit. Tarpit with Grimoire-augmented units and hope for bad Stomp rolls.


One thing I want to try more is pairing Fiends with lower-I units: charging in, say, 2 Soul Grinders and some fiends for a lot of S10 attacks at I3 before the I1 Knight gets to strike. With only WS3, the Soul Grinders are hardly reliable against a fresh 'Knight, but... still might gets some wounds through. Agreed, though: Daemonettes and Seekers are the way to go, far and away. A Lord of Change with Staff of Change is a nice amount of S8 attacks--and any MC who rolled the "Fleshbane & Armorbane" Greater Reward.




MidnightSun said:


> Khorne Daemonkin: Bloodthirsters are probably all you've got, although gunning for lucky 6s on Bloodletters is a reasonable plan if you can reach melee. If Skulltaker still does his Brutal Legend decapitation thing, worth a shot.


Daemons having Fearless, not Daemonic Instability, helps tarpit it, Stomps aside. Flesh Hounds scouting up can get in its grill right off the bat (can still wound on 5s if you assault). Bike squads are less than a hundred points for 2 meltas... and you can bring a lot of those bike squads. Still, no good answers here. Though every one of your small MSU units that a Wraithknight destroys, they do give you a Blood Tithe point, as some small silver lining...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

"Bubble wrap and spank" as a general policy (Stomp 6s sniping characters with no recourse whatsoever aside) could be aided and abetted by the Helcult, honestly, for 2 large blocks of Fearless cultists for not too expensive, so that if you don't have a character nearby the 35 Cultists don't lose by a bunch, break, and get run down.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Be'lakor should still spank a wraithknight, yea? If the WK is otherwise the same but with GC rules I'm not sure anything would change in that fight

Nurgle mace prince as a cheaper alternative

Aside from those... as mentioned blobs of cultists with CC characters could do it. Certain units disgorged from a land raider will do some damage. Khorne termies with fists, for example. Abaddon. 

How annoying that this thing costs less than 300 points. At least they nerfed the wave serpent, and can you only take one wraithknight per detachment?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Blastmasters only able to get up to one hit per turn makes that a dicey proposition (for a whole lotof points in support of fielding that one blasmaster). I've had to pull it a few times, and it takes most of my army's shooting (4-6 blastmasters, Forgefiend, maybe 2 Havoc squads) for several turns to get the Wraithknight down to a few wounds before the Wraithknight charges in and I get a lucky 6 to wound with my Sorcerer's Force Axe to ID it. That's how it's played out multiple times, honestly. And now the ID is only doing D3 wounds, so... the rest of the army shooting for a few turns to get that unreliable result is still necessary.


Why would you shoot it if you were planning on Force Weapon-ing it?

Facetiousness aside, yeah, Chaos don't really have any particularly efficient guns for dealing with it. Ideally, you'd get Symphony of Pain, Misfortune and a squad of static Noise Marines but that's a combo requiring way too much random chance to be any good. On the other hand, Chaos have some of the better melee counters with Be'lakor and the Black Mace Prince both able to take on a Wraithknight without too many issues (Be'lakor is Fleshbane and Instant Death, right? If he is he is going to _wreck_ a Wraithknight), possibly even if it has the Str D sword.



Mossy Toes said:


> Alternatively I guess you could take 15 Havocs with 12 lascannons/missile launchers, alongside 15 Chosen with meltas/plasma guns, and just let that rip. You opponent will be killing those squads as fast as they can, but...


Yeah, but I'm trying to make a list of units you could build into your existing lists rather than re-writing your whole army to just be good at killing Gargantuan Creatures. Any army *can* easily kill a Wraithknight if you spend 2000pts on just ways of doing that, but then everything else kills you. It's just an unfortunate quirk that Chaos don't really have an efficient plug-in unit that can do the job brilliantly (although Maulerfiends with Lasher Tendrils are looking better when I think of them).



Mossy Toes said:


> Speaking of Rad Grenades, I imagine an Inquisitor could pull the same. Plus, say, a Skitarii Vanguard squad in combat, supported by some sort of thunder hammer or power fist.
> 
> Mostly just having fun thinking about stacking T debuffs, but... I suppose it does point out to me that Skitarii are a thing, now, too. Ballistarii with lascannons, etc. Radium jezzails dealing 2 AP2 wounds on 6s to wound. Etc.


You _can_ do it with Inquisitors or Vanguard, but the big deal for Dark Angels is being able to toss them out from 18" away rather than needing to get into combat. Charging into a Wraithknight is a lot riskier than debuffing and then killing it from range.



Mossy Toes said:


> One things: Wraithknights have stomp now. So not only will they clear your cultists several times faster, if they roll a 6 while the template is on top of your Lord--poof!


This is true, but it's just as likely that the Wraithknight will roll badly and only get one blast or roll a 1 or something. Stomp is painful and clears out hordes for sure, but it's easy to overestimate.



Mossy Toes said:


> "Hope that your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on Stomp or the D-table" is such a shitty survivability mechanic.


Eh, not much shittier than 'Hope your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on their Distort Weapons/Killchoppa/Rending Implant Attack/Shard of Anaris' which Monstrous Creatures of all stripes have had to deal with for ages, or 'Hope your opponent doesn't roll a 6 on their Cannon/Stone Thrower/Heroic Killing Blow' which is all that basically every Fantasy monster has to protect itself with.



Mossy Toes said:


> One thing I want to try more is pairing Fiends with lower-I units: charging in, say, 2 Soul Grinders and some fiends for a lot of S10 attacks at I3 before the I1 Knight gets to strike. With only WS3, the Soul Grinders are hardly reliable against a fresh 'Knight, but... still might gets some wounds through. Agreed, though: Daemonettes and Seekers are the way to go, far and away. A Lord of Change with Staff of Change is a nice amount of S8 attacks--and any MC who rolled the "Fleshbane & Armorbane" Greater Reward.


Remember that not all, and I'd dare say not even most, Knights are getting Str D on their regular attacks since they give up all kind of shooting power for it - sure, they're a mean combat dude, but 300pts of not-shooting mean in a shooting army? I'm not really sure whether you'd want that over the 'waste two tanks/monstrous creatures out of cover per turn' or 'kill all Terminators ever' loadouts on a WK.

Yep, Str10 attacks and Fleshbane attacks are definitely the way to go, I think (you could add massed Deff Dreads as a comedy option for Orks). Daemonettes are totally a good way to deal with it though.



Mossy Toes said:


> Daemons having Fearless, not Daemonic Instability, helps tarpit it, Stomps aside. Flesh Hounds scouting up can get in its grill right off the bat (can still wound on 5s if you assault). Bike squads are less than a hundred points for 2 meltas... and you can bring a lot of those bike squads. Still, no good answers here. Though every one of your small MSU units that a Wraithknight destroys, they do give you a Blood Tithe point, as some small silver lining...


Gotta say, I'm by no means experienced with Khorne Daemonkin other than a couple of games against them as Grey Knights so I'll bow to your knowledge here. I believe something in the book has a Str D combat weapon? Other than that, just pile in with a lot of dudes and hope for Decapitating Strikes.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Why would you shoot it if you were planning on Force Weapon-ing it?


Well, "planning" on force weaponing it when I get 3 attacks per turn and my force axe only wounds on 6s is... a bit of an overstatement. I think these games were during 6th, too, so no need to cast Force specifically. My plan was to kill it at range, honestly.

Chaos melee-killing a gargantuan creature is better than melee-killing a Knight, honestly, on large part there being no super-explosion that might hit me with another S-D on the scatter when the Knight dies, or wipe out the horde I used to whittle you down.



MidnightSun said:


> (Be'lakor is Fleshbane and Instant Death, right? If he is he is going to wreck a Wraithknight),


Just Fleshbane Armorbane. Fleshbane ID would be nice, but... nah. Still, he's going to do several wounds per phase, and if it only has S10 attacks, not S-D, he has Eternal Warrior and a 4++ (to say nothing of probably having cast Invisibility on himself, too), so he'll probably survive the backlash, too.



MidnightSun said:


> This is true, but it's just as likely that the Wraithknight will roll badly and only get one blast or roll a 1 or something. Stomp is painful and clears out hordes for sure, but it's easy to overestimate.


Well, getting to roll for it every phase if you're relying on whittling it down with a power fist that the Knight can't touch means every single stomp every single phase at higher Initiative than your fist is going to have a chance to splatter you. It's easy to overestimate, but at the same time, my opponents have rolled some really inconvenient 6s on me at really inopportune moments with their Knights. It's another point of failure that can break your plan on a not-too-unlikely whim of the dice with no way to escape it.



MidnightSun said:


> I believe something in the book has a Str D combat weapon? Other than that, just pile in with a lot of dudes and hope for Decapitating Strikes.


The Lord of Skulls, yeah, so my 3x points cost unit who doesn't have stomp (so gets tarpitted easily, especially if at full hull points) could strike at I3, yeah.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

...and the WK should be hitting Be'lakor on 5s. Unless it's WS5 but I don't think it is


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Squire said:


> ...and the WK should be hitting Be'lakor on 5s. Unless it's WS5 but I don't think it is


Couldn't particularly recall if it was WS4 or WS5, and dunno whether that will hold true into the next book, either--but yeah, that's true of any Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster, if it's only WS4.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Just Fleshbane Armorbane. Fleshbane ID would be nice, but... nah. Still, he's going to do several wounds per phase, and if it only has S10 attacks, not S-D, he has Eternal Warrior and a 4++ (to say nothing of probably having cast Invisibility on himself, too), so he'll probably survive the backlash, too.


Yeah, if it doesn't have the Wraithsword then Be'lakor will pound it.



Mossy Toes said:


> Well, getting to roll for it every phase if you're relying on whittling it down with a power fist that the Knight can't touch means every single stomp every single phase at higher Initiative than your fist is going to have a chance to splatter you. It's easy to overestimate, but at the same time, my opponents have rolled some really inconvenient 6s on me at really inopportune moments with their Knights. It's another point of failure that can break your plan on a not-too-unlikely whim of the dice with no way to escape it.


Stomps aren't at higher Initiative than the Fist, since they're always done at I1, but fair point made.



Mossy Toes said:


> The Lord of Skulls, yeah, so my 3x points cost unit who doesn't have stomp (so gets tarpitted easily, especially if at full hull points) could strike at I3, yeah.


Oh, I thought there was one of the relic axes or one of the Bloodthirsters had a Str D axe but never mind.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Stomps aren't at higher Initiative than the Fist, since they're always done at I1, but fair point made.


Ah? Right, misremembered it at I2, rather than I1.



MidnightSun said:


> Oh, I thought there was one of the relic axes or one of the Bloodthirsters had a Str D axe but never mind.


One of the Bloodthirsters does have a D axe, actually, you're right--I actually kinda forgot about him--just he strikes at I1 with it, so people have mostly glanced it over and dismissed it. There are too many ways to kill a W5 T6 MC before/as he gets to strike at I1, especially among the specific targets you'd want to level a S-D axe against.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ah, that'll be the fella. He'll wreck a non-Sword and Board Wraithknight, but since that seems to be the one causing concern it's no great help. Hrrm.

EDIT: N'aww, thanks for the rep :3


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Hmm.. 

Do you get to make a Look out Sir roll for stomps?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Unfortunately not, it's just everyone under the blast template is removed. Think Purple Sun, but with added bullshit.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> *Tyranids:* Anything with a lot of attacks and Rending Claws, Toxicrene for a funny and reasonably legit counter, massed Implant Attack if you feel lucky, Boneswords if you can roll 6s. Paroxysm taking it down to WS1 BS1 is amusing. Swarmlord with some Tyrant Guard to take the D for him should might do it if you can get Furious Charge or Preferred Enemy or something. Gargoyles with Blinding Venom.


I respect what you are trying to do but as a long standing Tyranid player I am going to disagree with all of these options for the following reasons.

1. Rending claws are good against it. If they can reach it. As you mention it moves 12 inches a turn so most creatures with them are not even going to catch it. Those that can (like Raveners, Shrikes and Genestealers) are either likely to be shot down on the way in (depending on the rest of the Eldar army and the load out of said Wraithknight) or get instant killed when they start slapping it in close combat or finished off via stomp.

2. Toxicrenes are NOT a valid counter to Wraithknights. Even assuming it reaches said Knight (since it moves 6 inches a turn) it only wounds it on 6's (since it is poisoned 2+ and not fleshbane). Now whilst it gets a decent number of attacks to do this and inflicts D3 wounds per 6 it has a much lower initiative than the Knight and will probably get slapped up by it before it gets to strike.

3. Implant attack no longer exists in the current Tyranid book.

4. Boneswords suffer the same problem as rending claws as explained above.

5. Paroxysm as a power no longer reduces the target to WS and BS 1. It instead drops both by D3 and since Knights were WS5 last book (I am assuming this does not change) then the best I can get it down to would be WS2 and BS1. Also I cannot assume that I will be able to out-psyk an Eldar army since they both are roughly the same on power dice etc.

6. Swarmlord will not even get close to a Knight. I'm sorry but no competent Eldar player is gonna allow that thing anywhere near his Knight. Not to mention the Swarmlord himself is nearly the same points cost as the Knight in the first place.



Looking through the Nid book I have come to the conclusion that there is almost nothing that can deal with a Wraithknight because it will either get shot down/outmaneuvered before it gets a chance to do its thing. The best thing I reckon stands a chance is to get a Hierophant up against it. Then again I find it ridiculous I have to field a 1000 point monster (which is still not SD I might add) to even stand a very good chance of toppling a Wraithknight.

Again this is not a personal dig at you (It's not meant to) but there is literally almost nothing a Tyranid player can do to stand up against it.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Looking through the Nid book I have come to the conclusion that there is almost nothing that can deal with a Wraithknight because it will either get shot down/outmaneuvered before it gets a chance to do its thing. The best thing I reckon stands a chance is to get a Hierophant up against it. Then again I find it ridiculous I have to field a 1000 point monster (which is still not SD I might add) to even stand a very good chance of toppling a Wraithknight.


What about the Hierodule? I remember them being pretty nasty...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, sucks for you then. Hope you've saved up some money to buy an Eldar army!


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

Simple, GW is a collectors hobby. Rules are there with prices to make the models(they are not toys, you play games with toys. These are not made for playing games but for telling story's).

Besides. Eldar ALWAYS gets this hype. They always are the best, cheesiest. Well unless Ultra Smurfs come out after them... oh wait I do believe they will be.

Solution.... more Heldrake-bell!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I had a thought - would people be more willing to play against Wraithknights if they count as Escalation choices? I.e. give you +1 to Seize, the special Warlord Traits, and being worth additional VP for being wounded or killed?

That seems like it's a pretty reasonable way to make sure that people aren't getting stomped in every game, but also allows all the perfectly nice Eldar players who've spent a lot of time and money on their big robot to play games with them.


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> I had a thought - would people be more willing to play against Wraithknights if they count as Escalation choices? I.e. give you +1 to Seize, the special Warlord Traits, and being worth additional VP for being wounded or killed?
> 
> That seems like it's a pretty reasonable way to make sure that people aren't getting stomped in every game, but also allows all the perfectly nice Eldar players who've spent a lot of time and money on their big robot to play games with them.


I would love to pit 2 heldrakes against a knight.... kind of a dragon story...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Get yourself some Warhammer Fantasy, son.

We'll make a High Elf Caledor-themed army player of you yet.


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Get yourself some Warhammer Fantasy, son.
> 
> We'll make a High Elf Caledor-themed army player of you yet.


I have 2x 500 pt fantasy armys. Ogres(nobody loves a gnoblar) and Vampires. I dont "play" vampires though I play undead, as I feel the undead need to free themselves from the eternal yoke of tyranny the vampires bring.

For my ogres I field more gnoblars then most people field in a 1000-1500 point game. Minimal bulls, plenty of lead belchers!

The hoard truly is among us.

I dont much fancy elves, prefering armys where I can make junk into gold. I like the grots and gretchin, not so much the orks. I like the Chaos machines, soul grinders, heldrakes, nurglings spawn. I have a softspot for things that can be styled in a steampunk fashion and the drama of a good underdog / love story.

I play Khor--- Blood Angels (Flesh tearers) because I like the tragic tale of the death company. My favorite 40k was the Tyranids because they are the ultimate faith, where not one soul is cruel for crueltys sake... well maybe just because everyone needs to eat.

Players like me ruin the game for gamers. Alas Power Gamers ruined the game for me.

Cheers.


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## Routine (Sep 25, 2011)

For the part about Ork Meganobs, it should be mentioned that a Wraithknight with Strength D rather than Strength 10 is pretty much the same thing when it comes to Instant Death, what with Strength D being counted as Strength 10 for the purposes of determining Instant Death.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Routine said:


> For the part about Ork Meganobs, it should be mentioned that a Wraithknight with Strength D rather than Strength 10 is pretty much the same thing when it comes to Instant Death, what with Strength D being counted as Strength 10 for the purposes of determining Instant Death.


It's better - a Str10 attack will take off two wounds, but a Str D attack might only take off one (wounds don't overspill from D).

Same with Ogryns, Paladins, Thunderwolves, Wraiths etc. (with the minor caveat that a 6 will ignore Invulns, which Meganobz don't have anyway). Of those, only Ogryns are actually a poor unit to fight a Wraithknight with, I think - Paladins can take off *roughly* three wounds with shooting assuming no buffs other than Prescience, and they'll wreck it in combat because they do that; Thunderwolves have a bunch of Rending attacks and then a bunch of Str10 AP2 attacks from their Power Fists/Hammers (does Concussive still do stuff to Gargantuans?); Wraiths have a load of high Initiative Rending attacks, a lot of mobility to catch a WK and can be given Shred to increase their chances of Rending or Reanimation Protocols to protect themselves from Instant Death (and, I believe, even the 6 result on the Stomp Table as it is 'removed from play' *not* Str D, and therefore doesn't deny Reanimation).


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Option for the lowly Chaos player:

Mayhem pack. For lightly higher cost than the WK itself, you can deep strike 3 Helbrutes on its head with MMs and Fists.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gotta be worth a shot!

Another one for Necrons is the fancy Warscythe relic that gives Fleshbane.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Necrons:Scarab swarms WITH Shield Lychguard. Shield bots to take up D HTH hits, which is why they aren't scythe bots, and Gauss Jaws! *budummmmmm*. Sure, they'll die to a 6 stomp, as will anything, but with Resurrection Protocol 5+ for a non-6, some will probably live. Maybe. . Of course they'll have been razored down by the rest of the army, just cause of this.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Isn't Reanimation discounted by Destroyer but _not_ Removed from Play? I seem to remember that being a thing but I'm no Necron player and I've never seen it come up.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Isn't Reanimation discounted by Destroyer but _not_ Removed from Play? I seem to remember that being a thing but I'm no Necron player and I've never seen it come up.


You don't get reanimation for Destroyer and Removes from play now, not that I'm complaining from how good it is the rest of the time.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ah, fair - I'd misremembered that.


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## el_machinae (Nov 17, 2014)

Is WraithKnight something the 'nid players just have to play _around_? Like, we don't target it, and we don't make any units that we _need_ to survive in order to win? It'll just kill our necessary units, and so having no necessary units seems to be my only hope.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Depends on the exact rule. The Ranged Knight need to be Engaged with MCs, as it seems to not have D level HTH. The stomps will be dangerous, but it should fall to a trio of carnifexes before stomping can occur. The GlaiveKnight needs to be occupied by swarms or gaunts. Tervigon spam will be helpful here. Neurothropes and their Zoanthrope broods shoudl aslo be effective, though Psychic against Eldar is...iffy.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Creon said:


> Psychic against Eldar is...iffy.


Considering that Eldar need to throw an average of 6 dice at a Psychic Shriek/Psychic Scream/Paroxysm if you're not casting against a Wraithknight, I don't know where the whole 'you can't cast spells against Eldar and Daemons' comes from (Grey Knights I understand since they have pretty excellent psychic defence if you're not casting Blessings or Conjurations, but Eldar and Daemons? Nah).

Against the Wraithknight with Tyranids, I'd want as much Rending as possible. Anything that can Instant Death on top of that is brilliant. Carnifexes would be good if you can get them into melee - preferably with Paroxysm to cut down on the amount of attacks you take before striking (only need to cast Paroxysm successfully, even with a 1 on the D3, to get hit on 4s instead of 3s, a huge bonus. If you roll a 3 and get hit on 5s, gra-vy). Gargoyles can try and do weight of wounds in a pinch, and Blinding it would be amusing if nothing else. Massed Boneswords are your fist-pump if you can get into melee.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Imagining a unit of three fexes is a good idea, how are they armed? If one or two have crushing claws and all other sets of weapons are devourers they might have a chance, but we're talking about a slow unit trying to pin down a fast unit that knows there probably isn't much else in the list that can harm it.

For simplicity, let's assume they're all dakkafexes. You might do something with the devourers and/or hammer of wrath but after getting into combat half of their attacks will miss, one third won't wound, and then one third will be saved by feel no pain. So 2.667 wounds. The devourers should do exactly one wound so that's 3.667 plus hammer of wrath if all three fexes get to shoot and charge. It's... alright. They might be able to finish it off next turn but it all involves everything going right for the nid player and the Eldar guy not killing any of the fexes or their supporting synapse unit/s before the charge happens

I've got an almost finished Tyranid army but I'm not going to spend more money on it to compete with Eldar. I'll hope my synapse web holds together, hurl gaunts at the knight and hope for the best. Bad stomp rolls perhaps. Otherwise take the loss if I have to play and avoid Eldar with wraithknights when I don't


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Heirodule seems a pretty strong option for Tyranids, not sure how good it is at killing other Gargantuans but 12 Str10 AP3 shots is certainly going to dent a Wraithknight even if BS3 isn't killing it in one round.


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

The ork Deff Cannon with 3d6 st9 ap3 shots and then d3 ap 3 extra shots (which are able to target other units) hitting on a 2+ should be enough to do something too. It can be out on a Kustom Stompa from I:8


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If we're adding Forge World Lords of War, Wraithknights immediately shoot way down the list of 'things you have to worry about'.

That Stompa will be taking the two 7" blast Destroyer guns too, I assume?


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Of course! I've been partial to the D Kannon and the giga shooter (st6 ap4 6d6 shots) lately tho. Way more fun*


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

My usual loadout is Deth Kannon with Co-Axial Supa-Gatler, Wrecka Ball, Head Flamebelcha, Hull Flamebelcha, Lobbas on the shoulders and a Deff Arsenal since that's what my model has, but if I wanted to get the 'best' Stompa available I'd totally go with Bursta Cannons on both arms, a head Flamebelcha, a hull Flamebelcha and the Deff Arsenal. A lot of people like the Belly Gun for the devastation it wreaks (which is certainly a lot of fun), but putting a Burna squad with 3 Meks, a Big Mek with the Mega Force Field from Waaagh! Ghazghkull, a Big Mek with the Fixer-Uppers and 3 regular Meks in it is more valuable in my view.


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

If you look at it, eldar don't get as much lovin' as Chaos or Orks from Forge World, this kinda makes the latter factions a bit more costly to stay "op".

Still I wish the rules for many of forgeworld items were available locally. (Like ia8 at your flgrs.)


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## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> My usual loadout is Deth Kannon with Co-Axial Supa-Gatler, Wrecka Ball, Head Flamebelcha, Hull Flamebelcha, Lobbas on the shoulders and a Deff Arsenal since that's what my model has, but if I wanted to get the 'best' Stompa available I'd totally go with Bursta Cannons on both arms, a head Flamebelcha, a hull Flamebelcha and the Deff Arsenal. A lot of people like the Belly Gun for the devastation it wreaks (which is certainly a lot of fun), but putting a Burna squad with 3 Meks, a Big Mek with the Mega Force Field from Waaagh! Ghazghkull, a Big Mek with the Fixer-Uppers and 3 regular Meks in it is more valuable in my view.


I put the same load out in the inside too. It's been known to make plenty of players angry :grin:

But with orks, I think the tankbustas might be good against the knight. No monster hunter, but spamming rokkits has been known to work against most things


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

The main thing that annoys me with the whole WraithKnight thing is despite the points going up a bit it is now Gargantuan so a few nice bonus rules for that such as 12" Movement, Stomp, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Snipers and Poison only wound on 6s and of course most important is that instant death now just does D3 wounds rather than killing him instantly. But when armed for melee it has a D weapon striking at I5, so could take out a lot of enemies before they can strike. What miffed me about that is only a couple of weeks ago the new BloodThirster becomes I1 if he has his D weapon, I would have been happier if they had reduced the BT to I3 (so 1/3 of natural) when using D weapon, especially as they cost almost the same and the knight gets so much more for the 20 points difference.
The BT gets more WS/BS an 2 more attacks and flys (though that is more of a jink save thing for him), but the Knight getting +4S +2T +1W and Stomp, FNP, Unstoppable (so cant be instant deathed and the anti poison / sniper thing) and due to having 12" move anyway almost makes no difference compared to flying, apart from Skyfire can't shoot it better.
And this isn't even the whole source of my annoyance over it as you can also get Wraithknights (1 Heavy or 1 of your 12 auxiliary choices) so much easier than the D Weapon BloodThirster in a Daemon (1 HQ Choce) or Daemonkin (1 HQ Choice or if Bloodhost 1 per Formation) army even with the new formation.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer, but we all knew that the Great Axe Bloodthirster was crap well before we knew anything about Eldar being released. A new guy being released who's better than him isn't exactly a big surprise or disappointment to me (especially considering that the Wraithknight is fucking _massive_ even compared to a Bloodthirster).


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer, but we all knew that the Great Axe Bloodthirster was crap well before we knew anything about Eldar being released. A new guy being released who's better than him isn't exactly a big surprise or disappointment to me (especially considering that the Wraithknight is fucking _massive_ even compared to a Bloodthirster).


But with a little change like listed above he might have been at least worth it sometimes.
The fact the models cost the same in money as well annoys me with the whole "This is meant to be the centre piece / big guy for your army" when clearly it is cack








*sour grapes all round for chaos*
Hopefully we will get a chaos knight soon... and i dont mean a guy on a horsey with a lance and shield.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

And having Assault Marines be a bit more like Triarch Praetorians would make them good too, but _c'est la vie_.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bio-Ahriman

Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Force. Get him on the charge, and that's 9 S9 AP2 attacks with Instant Death. You can lighten the load on Ahriman by taking a second Sorcerer in the unit for Force. 

Mix up with typical dice generating spam. 

Remember as well that the allies rules can be abused, especially for this purpose. Coteaz = 100pts for 2 ML (and REROLL SEIZING!), while the Inquisitors themselves bring a ML at 1 for 55, but access to Servo Skulls as well which can help with infiltrating or scouting eldar fuckery, AND Henchmen squad provides 1 PsyDice for 18pts minimum (Psyker and 2 Henchmen without equipment). Pick up Tome of Vethric for Split Fire. Of all of these, who cares if they make no action? They still contribute to generating Warp Charge. For Servo Skulls, it's pretty poorly written; "treated as counters, rather than units, for all intents and purposes", does that allow Come the Apocalypse units to use them as Deep Strike targets? Because in that case, bring him down with a Kharybdis. 

For example; Coteaz, ML1 Inquisitor, 3 Servo Skulls, 3x Henchmen Squads (Psyker, Acolyte, Acolyte) = 218pts = 6 additional Psychic Dice.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yep, Ahriman or Tigurius or Loth buffed up with Biomancy can all make a significant dent in a WK and it's hard to Deny them their powers since of course they are Blessings. Getting a pile of Warp Charge with Acolyte/Acolyte/Psyker squads and then maxing out on Divination casters to get Misfortune or more independantly/reliably, Telepathy casters to get Psychic Shriek, seems like a solid option (sure, Psychic Shriek doesn't _average_ a huge number of wounds, but sometimes you just roll that 5,5,6 or something and destroy everything).

Chaos Space Marines can bring a Black Legion character with the Pimp Hand of Darkness as another threat against a WK.

The Nightbringer and a Necron Overlord with the Voidreaper are also Fleshbane and the latter can get close with a Night Scythe (and the former in a Conclave of the Burning One) for what that's worth.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Chaos Space Marines can bring a Black Legion character with the Pimp Hand of Darkness as another threat against a WK.


Pimp hand takes you to only 1 attack though i think, so max would be 4 wounds a turn if you are lucky.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't think that 'only' dealing four wounds is a big problem when Wraithknights are metric bastards to kill with a _lot_ of guys.


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