# Apocalypse



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Who wants it? Who has it? Who likes it? Who hates it? All questions to answer here!

The release date is finally upon us so let's get this discussion rolling.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Datasheets are MUCH more inflexible - not sure if I'm a fan really. Deathwing Redemption force isn't going to see much use, as who has 20 Deathwing Knights and 30 Deathwing Terminators? I'm nearly at the 30 Terminators mark *with* my Knights. Lots of datasheets gone, which sucks - I presume old datasheets are invalidated, which is a shame as that's a drastic reduction in options.

Still don't know about Finest Hour. It ranges from 'Shit' to 'Gamebreaking'. The fact that you can get double attacks on a Tau Commander for one turn or put a completely destroyed unit/formation into Ongoing Reserve, and have the same chance of getting either, is utterly retarded. The Replacements one is particularly bad - when someone uses that to bring back a Phantom Titan, I will rule it that if the Phantom is still in one piece in 10 seconds time, it can be brought back. Sons of the Primarch is at least reliable, but also imbalanced - Dark Angels is mediocre but at least scales with the game, which makes it one of the better choices (it only twin-links Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters, but when you Twin-Link 12,000pts of Bolters it tells) - something like the Space Wolf or Blood Angel one are nice in 3000pts, but useless up at anything higher than 20,000pts which some people do play. The Alpha Legion trait is poor, the Iron Warriors one is *really* nice, the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both really good, Word Bearers is exceptional, but Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Death Guard, and World Eaters, while fluffy, are at least sub-par if not plain awful.

Divine Intervention is a nice idea, but again, imbalanced. Necrons have easily the best trigger and probably best effect (tied with Tau), whilst the Imperium gets a pretty crappy one (I brought a Deathwing Redemption Force! Wait, now I don't get Divine Intervention... equally, Imperial Guard and Sisters will struggle to get mileage), Chaos is utterly win-more (I already butchered half your entire army, so now I can table you more easily!), Orks is really luck-based (surprise surprise!), Dark Eldar and Eldar are likely to have been crippled by their condition at 3000pts but it's barely even a trigger at 20,000pts. Tau have a crappy trigger but real nice effect that helps the army's weaknesses a lot. Tyranids have an amazing effect, but weird trigger. 

Vehicle formations are pretty damn cool.

The fact that the old Traitor boxout has been expanded to Orks is pretty stupid, in my opinion. Orks have their own formations, their own IA stuff, but now have access to everyone else's datasheets as long as it's vehicular. Ork Phantom Titan? Check. Ork Baneblade Company? Check. Ork Heldrake Fear Squadron? Check. And all of this is allowed in the book. On the other hand, they fixed the cockup of Tyranid allies; Tyranids can take Imperial Guard allies or Chaos Cultists as Genestealer Cults in their army, which is really nice.

Changes to Str is nice, Thunderblitz is unnecessary, random Disaster tables are annoying (and even moreso that they're not optional when the Librarius is on the field), and generally a lot more tables than I feel is appropriate. Better than auto-kills, but I really feel like they went a bit over the top with the randomness.

I am REALLY liking the new racial assets. Corrupt and Despoil is so, so awesome. SM having a monopoly on Vortex Grenades is cool, and kinda makes sense (FUCK SISTERS! YEAH!), Cannibalise Technology is nice but doesn't raise Quantum Shielding so is probably less effective than it could be, Flank March has been fixed which is good, and they ALMOST fixed Replacements. However, it's much easier to kill things like Stompas or Revenants now, so I'm not complaining as much (seriously, AV12/12/10 is laughable for a Titan).

Midnight


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

Just came back from the Apocalypse Game at the local GW... got to field 5 Rune Priests as the Librarius and cast the Force Vortex. That is one very nasty spell that carries on scattering every player turn causing devastation in its wake! Didn't roll the double to get it to burrow though... would have loved to have seen that burrow and collapse, taking out the entire 2x2 board on the 5+ roll!

PS: Now in possession of the Collector's Edition of Apocalypse so I'm now sorted for my reading material for my 10hr flight out to Houston tomorrow morning. :grin:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

While I would really like to play Apoc I don't play enough normal 40k nor do I know enough people I would actually like to spend time with playing 40k in my local area to justify buying it.

The idea of dropping an entire 1st company is fucking cool however. Will the previous datasheets really be made invalid by the new edition? Surely not.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

I have it, and have read it all (the rules parts anyways). I like it. I am starting to plan a game at my FLGS for the end of the month. 



MidnightSun said:


> The fact that the old Traitor boxout has been expanded to Orks is pretty stupid, in my opinion. Orks have their own formations, their own IA stuff, but now have access to everyone else's datasheets as long as it's vehicular. Ork Phantom Titan? Check. Ork Baneblade Company? Check. Ork Heldrake Fear Squadron? Check. And all of this is allowed in the book.


This isn't actually new... You could do this in the old book by allying Orks and IG, or Eldar. As there really where no rules to what your army could have in it. And this way at lest it would give people a reason to make sweet conversions. Also I have a looted Carnifex that is normally a Deff Dread... but in Apoc I could use it as an actual Carnifex, and it would be A-OK.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

It references "older Books" in the Super Heavy Vehicle section, so I think all published Super heavies are allowable.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

The new Revenant rules are darn nifty. I'll gladly pay the extra points for the extra movement.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

What I've been able to gather is that GW is trying to fix the Super Heavy disparity. It's always been the case that some players have them while most don't. Of course, with the new ones that may change. Anyway, it used to be that you had to work hard to balance the teams, based on who had Super Heavies. But this is not so anymore. The Dark Eldar have Titan hunting Ravagers, Space Marines can drop an entire Battle Company and even Titans are not quite so impervious anymore. Some things feel really random but that ensures no 2 games are alike. If you're going to take the time to set up a 3000-20000 point game it better not go the same each time. Each experience should be fun and exciting.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> This isn't actually new... You could do this in the old book by allying Orks and IG, or Eldar. As there really where no rules to what your army could have in it. And this way at lest it would give people a reason to make sweet conversions. Also I have a looted Carnifex that is normally a Deff Dread... but in Apoc I could use it as an actual Carnifex, and it would be A-OK.


See, this I don't understand. If you can ally in all factions to take other armies' formations, why does it specify that Chaos and Orks can, or that Tyranids can take Guard and Chaos Cultists? I mean, I think you're right, in which case I'll try and convert up a Dark Angel flying monastery thing and change the rules from Revenant to Baneblade to Stompa to Tesseract Vault each game to confuse the fuck out of my gaming group, but it seems odd that it specifies that Orks can take other people's vehicles.

Midnight

EDIT: On second thoughts, I don't think you can take other army's Formations unless you have them as Allies of Desperation and, presumably, bring a HQ and a Troop. Because if the rules are 'Each race may select datasheets from it's section' - 'Orks may take any vehicle datasheet', then by extension other armies cannot take other race's datasheets. Allies muddies the waters, but since it's almost always Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies it doesn't benefit from Finest hour if applicable, it doesn't receive Blessings, can have One Eye Open etc.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey I've been thinking about this all day and thought I'd get a few opinions. Firstly I don't have my BRB handy (it's currently in my sister's garrage walong with all of my worldly possessions, I miss my hobby stuff especially) so I can't remember whether IG and Chaos are desperate allies or allies of convenience, but I'm pretty sure that they aren't battle brothers, so wouldn't be able to benefit from each others special rules, under normal circumstances anyway. Now in comes Apocalypse with its Chaos can take any imperial data sheet blurb, so if I were to go to the trouble of modeling and painting up some traitor guard, which let's face it would be an awesome project, and then decided to field an Imperial Shield Infantry Company, or maybe a tank company, would they benefit from the Chaos special rules? It's this that I'm unclear on, as on the one hand they aren't battle brothers (at least I don't think they are because I don't have my BRB handy) I wouldn't think they'd be able to, where on the other hand are they considered to be part of the Chaos army thjnanks to to the blurb about Chaos taking everything imperial?

Secondly, would I be able to take the Imperial Shield Infantry Company, and instead of using units chosen from the IG codex, take the equivalent units from the Renegades and Traitors lists found in the Sieges of Vraks book?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> I have it, and have read it all (the rules parts anyways). I like it. I am starting to plan a game at my FLGS for the end of the month.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't actually new... You could do this in the old book by allying Orks and IG, or Eldar. As there really where no rules to what your army could have in it. And this way at lest it would give people a reason to make sweet conversions. Also I have a looted Carnifex that is normally a Deff Dread... but in Apoc I could use it as an actual Carnifex, and it would be A-OK.


The thing is, in 5th Ed Apoc you could literally bring whatever you wanted. If you were playing a 5000 point game and wanted to bring 1000 points from 5 armies, you could. You technically still can if your opponent agrees. But GW is trying to incorporate the Ally rules into Apocolypse. Ideally, you would have your main detachment, then a secondary. No FOC but still only 2 armies fighting together. 



MidnightSun said:


> See, this I don't understand. If you can ally in all factions to take other armies' formations, why does it specify that Chaos and Orks can, or that Tyranids can take Guard and Chaos Cultists? I mean, I think you're right, in which case I'll try and convert up a Dark Angel flying monastery thing and change the rules from Revenant to Baneblade to Stompa to Tesseract Vault each game to confuse the fuck out of my gaming group, but it seems odd that it specifies that Orks can take other people's vehicles.
> 
> Midnight
> 
> EDIT: On second thoughts, I don't think you can take other army's Formations unless you have them as Allies of Desperation and, presumably, bring a HQ and a Troop. Because if the rules are 'Each race may select datasheets from it's section' - 'Orks may take any vehicle datasheet', then by extension other armies cannot take other race's datasheets. Allies muddies the waters, but since it's almost always Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies it doesn't benefit from Finest hour if applicable, it doesn't receive Blessings, can have One Eye Open etc.


In the cases where the book specifies something, it is because of the Ally rules. In normal 6th Ed 40K, Tyranids cannot have allies. So they are just making it clear that you can have a basically DIY Genestealer Cult in 6th Ed Apocolypse. The other specifics you mention seem to be ways to sneak around the Ally rules. Say you have a Chaos Marine army with Ork allies. Chaos can take any Imperial formation as its own. So your Chaos can now have IG components and traitor Marine recruits. Meanwhile the Orks brought a looted Fire Prism and a looted Hammerhead. So, even though you just have Chaos and Orks, you are able to field models from 6 armies. 

So your edit is correct. You can't just take anything and everything anymore. Dark Angels can bring their stuff and one ally if they choose. Orks and Chaos have some exceptions that make sense. Though it does seem to make Orks a little OP, depending on what looted vehicles they bring. Now, you could organize a game of "Classic Apocolypse" and throw the Ally rules out, just letting people bring anything regardless of the army.

Edit: GW seems to have written this book under the assumption that those reading it are only aware of 6th Ed. They mention older books but from a rules standpoint, they want it played like a bigger game of 6th Ed.


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

You can still literally bring whatever you want. APO isn't really intended for bring & battle pick up games with strangers, but rather for special events organized between friends. As such, force restrictions for narrative or balance are left to the players organizing the game. Do you want some sort of specific scenario involving armies that would logically face each other? Then do that - the warzone supplements such as the included Armageddon warzone will even show you how you might go about it. Do you just want to end a league season by nominating two team captains, having them take turns drafting players, and just throw the two teams at each other? Then do that, the rules won't stop you. Do several players have super heavies, and they just want to run some sort of monster truck rally with them? Do that.

Again, it's not that there aren't restrictions on what you can field, it's that in Apocalypse, those restrictions are decided by the players organizing the game, not by the game itself. Planning is part of the game, and part of planning is making sure that everyone knows what everyone else expects to get out of the game.

Since house rules are expected and there are no particular restrictions and everything is based on agreement between all players, the concept of what is 'official' or 'legal' also doesn't really have much baring. Want to run old datasheets that haven't been updated yet, like say that plaguereaper you converted? Or that towering Warlord titan? Then work out the rules with the other players and just do so.


I do wish some things were a bit more balanced. I don't mind things being random so much, but some of the non-random elements like the divine interventions and sons of the primarch abilities could have been better thought out, certainly - though if you don't like your SotP, you can always just use a regular moment of glory instead. And S: D weapons, especially those that fire multiple shots form the same gun, really are too powerful.

A single Turbo Laser should drop a reaver titan in a single shot, for instance, at least once its void shields have been stripped, and that's a bit anticlmactic, imo *EDIT: No it can't, I had been misled as to the number of shots, I still think D weapons are a bit too powerful, particularly when none of the defenses of a worlord during their moment of glory help*. Likewise, your warlord gains a 3++ save and eternal warrior during their moment of glory, but D weapons basically ignore both of those, and a single d pie plate will wipe your warlord and their entire retinue out regardless. And while you can bring back generic warlords and lesser superheavies via the replacement rules, you can't bring back unique characters or larger superheavies even though they die just as easily, which is a strong disincentive to fielding exactly the sort of units that APO games should be all about.

So yeah, there are problems in the rules, I think. But again, its APO, so house rules or friendly agreements to fix perceived problems can be incorporated more easily than in regular games of 40k.


All in all, as a Black Legion player, i'm pretty happy. The Chaos divine intervention is spectacular, the chaos unique assets are fun and fluffy, the Black Legion SotP rule is good without being so good that I think my opponents would be upset (I'm looking at you, Word Bearers!), And several of the CSM formations are good fits for the Black on the narrative end while looking to be reasonably flexible and effective in terms of rules.

The Lords of the Black Crusade seems tailor made to represent Abaddon and his Chosen on the board (I expect the other special characters, with the possible exception of Typhus, will typically be replaced by generic Terminator HQs). Yeah, they have no ablative wounds, and a single D plate will wipe out the entire squad, but the turn they come in from reserve (or the first turn, if you're going to go first and deploy them), they can invoke their moment of glory to allow six(!) units on the CSM side to triple move and charge in the same turn, while handing out bonuses to all nearby Black Legion units, particularly those with the MoS (the EC SotP affects anything MoS, not just EC units - the other three SotP will likely trade for generic MoG abilities), and all together that sounds pretty awesome. If Abby somehow makes it to combat, that's just a bonus.

And the Legionnaire Warband formation has my Chaos Marines actually feeling like chaos marines after so long, plus its super versatile (take pretty much anything you want, as long as it has VotLW), but with well designed fluff restrictions (if the formation's lord is undivided, then the units can take whatever marks they want, but if the formation's lord is marked then all the units that can have that mark must take it).


Apart from that, the obliterator formation is kind of cool, the LatD formation is fantastic, even if I doubt I'll have that many cultists any time soon, the heldrake formation is cool, and the spawn formation is amazing, _if_ you have a ton of spawn. Imagine - 35 MoN cultists on the first turn turning into 35 MoN spawn! And then moving triple distance and charging thanks to a warlords Moment of Glory!


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Why do people keep saying super heavies are easier to kill? Compared to the Forge world 6th ed update, they are even tougher. They no longer can be shaken/stun locked, can't lose weapons or speed, and are much more durable to standard fire than with the old super heavy damage chart. I don't remember seeing chain reaction in there now either, though it could be. Str D shots now average 3 hull points gone compared to the chance for 1+3 for every structure point chained off. 

Armor values havent changed much and Eldar Titans will get better saves against D weapons that stack with cover against normal shots. Reavers have what 18 hull points? That's 5-6 D shots on average after the void shields.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I disagree that Chaos have a good Divine Intervention - it's an excellent effect, but the trigger's the definition of win-more. You kill half their entire army, it becomes easier to kill the rest of the army. But you _already killed half_, you're doing damn fine already! To be honest, I think Necrons have hands-down the best, Tau's effect makes up for their poor trigger somewhat, and Orks pretty much get rewarded for doing what they were going to do anyway, but the others are either hard/strange triggers or poor effects (although strangely, Eldar have an excellent condition at 50,000 points but a near unachievable one at 3000.

Midnight


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

If you've killed half, the other side could easily have killed half or more of your stuff. Actually, with how things die in APO, I imagine it should be the rule, rather than the exception, that both sides will have killed off half the other side by the latter stages of the game.

Also, I retract some of my comments regarding D weapons - I had been misled as to the actual number of shots generated by most D weapons, they actually do max out at three on the heaviest of weapons rather than six as I had been previously led to believe.

while I still think that D weapons are more effective on regular models than they should be (Inv. saves and immortal warrior should provide _some_ defense, especially since those are the defensive rules granted to warlords in their 'moment of glory'), and I still think spamming D weapons will lead directly to unfun, unplayable games, and I think capping the number of hull points / wounds that a super heavy has when they are returned to the board (possibly representing damage sustained on the way to battle, or on other battlefields) would be a better call than simply saying such models can't be brought back at all, and I think unique models should still be able to be brought back as replacements (representing last minute escape teleportations or whatever), and.....


But yeah, that one complaint is partially retracted. My overall largely positive reaction remains.

I love the idea of fighting to the death on a dying planet via the 'end of the world' scenario.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

It's only dying because of the battle we're fighting on it. And while many seem to dislike this because of how it affects the battle, I like it. If you're going to unleash a Vortex Grenade, you had better be prepared for the consequences. And depending on how long the war has been going on; firing D-weapons all over the place could fracture the planet's crust. They are mini-nukes, in essence. And while I hate that they ignore invulnerable saves, I can understand it.


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

I would just like to put forward as a house rule that a warlord's 'moment of glory' come with the stipulation that they cannot take more than a single wound from any given attack.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Malisteen said:


> I would just like to put forward as a house rule that a warlord's 'moment of glory' come with the stipulation that they cannot take more than a single wound from any given attack.


Wouldn't it be easier to just nerf the obviously overpowered D-weapons?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Malisteen said:


> I would just like to put forward as a house rule that a warlord's 'moment of glory' come with the stipulation that they cannot take more than a single wound from any given attack.


So basically give them Eternal Warrior. 

Some HQ models have this normally.



AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just nerf the obviously overpowered D-weapons?


Against Infantry you avoid death on a 1, which is a mixed bag. I rather preferred Invulnerable saves being able to do something but now it looks like "Look out Sir" and random chance to avoid death instead.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

LOL No invuls but somebody can take a nuclear blast for you. Good to know. 

Look out, sir!
-tries to shield commander from the blast and is instantly incinerated, as is the commander-
Oops.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I really like most of the overhaul. I never cared for D weapons in the first place, and I still don't. I like the randomness, the inclusion of the Finest Hour and Divine Intervention, and stuff like that. And I like that there's more than one mission type. 

As someone who has collected a Space Marine Chapter, I am mildly irked (and by mildly, I mean "oh darn, I have to buy more awesome models *sarcastic snap of the fingers*") that Space Marine Companies *require* the inclusion of three dreadnoughts. I kind of wish they'd made it a 0-3 Dreadnoughts of any type thing, but if that's seriously the worst thing I can find to gripe about in Apocalypse (and really, it is...) then I figure we've got a great book on our hands.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> So basically give them Eternal Warrior.
> 
> Some HQ models have this normally.


Doesn't Finest hour already do that? I'm pretty certain that the point here is that EW AND a 3++ doesn't really work as intended when D-weapons shit all over those bonuses on a 2+. Remember, EW only prevents ID, it doesn't prevent your warlord from losing 5 wounds from a D-weapon.
And, as Archon Dan points out, LoS! is really the only protection you have against it, which, for a very fluff centered edition, makes no sense and is incredibly unfluffy.

Hence my solution: Just houserule D-weapons to have less of an impact. Say it doesn't ignore invulnerable saves or something. It just seems stupid to me to try an add extra rules to everything else in the book when the only obvious problem with this edition of Apocalypse is the D-weapons.

For those who haven't noticed, I really don't like these, but it is an easy fix.
Also:


MidnightSun said:


> I disagree that Chaos have a good Divine Intervention - it's an excellent effect, but the trigger's the definition of win-more. You kill half their entire army, it becomes easier to kill the rest of the army. But you already killed half, you're doing damn fine already!


Not necessarily. Remember that the DI triggers on when you killed half of the units in their army. Which means that if you aren't doing so good you can always try to go for all your opponents transports and other squishy units and then use it to make an epic comeback.
Also, in most fair games of Apocalypse you can expect both players to lose half their army, but in no way does this mean that both players are doing good. In Apocalypse it's rarely about how much you kill, but what. Therefore I think the Chaos DI trigger is fine. Chaos needs to be agressive anyway and the ability can produce comebacks, seal open ended games or it can make for some pretty spectacular massacres. I like it.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Doesn't Finest hour already do that?


Don't know, I don't have the book and haven't seen the full bit on what it does just yet. It seemed a bit specific to the army, or perhaps something you had to choose from a list of options for.



AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> I'm pretty certain that the point here is that EW AND a 3++ doesn't really work as intended when D-weapons shit all over those bonuses on a 2+. Remember, EW only prevents ID, it doesn't prevent your warlord from losing 5 wounds from a D-weapon.


You're right, they do lose a chunk of wounds, but without the book in hand I can't say exactly how it'll all work.



AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> And, as Archon Dan points out, LoS! is really the only protection you have against it, which, for a very fluff centered edition, makes no sense and is incredibly unfluffy.


Well somehow rolling 1s also keeps you from suffering wounds when it still punches holes in tanks automatically.



AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Hence my solution: Just houserule D-weapons to have less of an impact. Say it doesn't ignore invulnerable saves or something. It just seems stupid to me to try an add extra rules to everything else in the book when the only obvious problem with this edition of Apocalypse is the D-weapons.


Honestly I agree that D-Weapons got too good this edition. Most Titans don't even pay for theirs (unless they were updated and added to this book).

I'll get a better chance to see how it actually plays on the 27th. It should be interesting.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Amusingly, the Thunderhawk is probably the best D-weapon platform for Space Marines and is now almost 200pts cheaper.

Midnight


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

i really like the libarius formation and the fact mephiston can join it , so not only do they have a nice vortex attack but a good delivery system for mephiston into combat


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## Malisteen (Aug 15, 2012)

Proposed alterations to D weapon rules:

vs. regular models with hull points:
1: glancing hit (1 HP)
2-5: Pen hit, AP1, causing d3 HP (instead of normal 1 for pen)
6: Explodes

vs regular models with wounds:
1: automatic wound, AP-
2-5: auto wound, AP1, instant death, ignores cover
6: remove model, no saves of any kind, ignores EW, no look out sir

vs. superheavy vehicles, massive fortifications, & gargantuan creatures
1: single hull point/wound, AP-
2-5: d3+3 hull points / wounds (AP1, no cover)
6: d6+6 hull points (AP1, no cover, no invulnerable)


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

That makes them too good vs Super Heavies. Yes they are tough, but then again just getting hit twice with a D weapon shouldn't be the death of one if we are nerfing the D everywhere else. It should take roughly 3 D hits now to kill most 9 hull point super heavies. Lets keep it that way by simply applying your regular vehicle table to them and putting the the 6+d6 hull points as an aside for the D weapon 6 result instead of d3 as usual for vehicles. That way it still knocks off a hull point with a 1, can still knock off 1-6 hull points with a 2-5 result, and 6 still devastates with no change to your regular vehicle table.

What's the plan for Gargantuan Creatures?

1: automatic wound, AP-
2-5: D3+1 wounds, AP1, ignores cover
6: D6+3 wounds, no saves of any kind, including FnP

That sound about right?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

My gaming group are taking the following stance:

- Any formations that have been updated use the updated datasheet - any that have not been included in the new Apocalypse book may still be used as long as you have the appropriate datasheet. If the datasheet has significantly changed, use the old datasheet (essentially, I added this clause because some formations, such as the Deathwing Redemption Force, are now all-but unachievable for the casual player to amass).
- Some assets will use the new rules, but Shield Generator, Supreme Command, and maybe Orbital Bombardment will use the old rules (pending playtesting).
- Use the old rules for Strength D weapons.
- Retain the Apocalypse Super-Heavy Damage Table
- Apocalypse: Reload is still valid
- New Gargantuan Creature and Super-Heavy special rules lists will be used, but Thunderblitz will not.
- None of the random tables in the new Apocalypse rulebook will be used. The only random table to be used will be Super-Heavy Damage.
- Old Objective rules used - any unit can capture objectives if it is within 6" of the objective (I'm trying to get this ruled to just infantry).

Midnight


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

How many games of Apoc have you all played, that you're confident the rules need changing? I think at least three need to be played with the full, current, uptodate rules set, before considering changes. As to older datasheets, use them with the current rules set. I think changing it before this happens isn't something *I* would consider.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I am dissappointed to see so many house rulings already. Particularly the instant nixing of the random tables. It's just like 6th ed's release last year. Everybody immediately decided random was bad. Keeping track doesn't even slow the game down that much. It's just another way to add diversity to the game. Maybe some are truly terrible but you have to play to see.

And, yes, D-weapons are way too strong. That is a change that doesn't bother me. But gie the rest a try.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I keep hearing "d-weapons are too powerful". Sure, they wipe out Non-SH units without thinking about it. I always thought D weapons were too weak, and this adjusted them. I think games of Apocalypse are going to be whiz-bangs of ultimate slaughter, as perhaps they should be.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> I am dissappointed to see so many house rulings already. Particularly the instant nixing of the random tables. It's just like 6th ed's release last year. Everybody immediately decided random was bad. Keeping track doesn't even slow the game down that much. It's just another way to add diversity to the game. Maybe some are truly terrible but you have to play to see.
> 
> And, yes, D-weapons are way too strong. That is a change that doesn't bother me. But gie the rest a try.


Oh, look, 2'x2' of board was removed, which consisted of my Titan. Well, I'm certainly over the fucking moon about diversity.

Midnight


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Oh look, it's break 2. 1 SVP, and that titan rises from the steaming lava, ANGRY!


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> I am dissappointed to see so many house rulings already. Particularly the instant nixing of the random tables. It's just like 6th ed's release last year. Everybody immediately decided random was bad. Keeping track doesn't even slow the game down that much. It's just another way to add diversity to the game. Maybe some are truly terrible but you have to play to see.
> 
> And, yes, D-weapons are way too strong. That is a change that doesn't bother me. But gie the rest a try.


I, for one, would like to use all the random stuff in Apocalypse at least once. In normal games of 40k I despise GW's lazy "derp random = fun" approach but if there ever was a place strange, unpredictable tables belonged it's Apocalypse games. So I'm looking forward to, at the very least, try them all out before I pass judgement (although not all are equally interesting from the looks of it.)

D-weapons however, need no playtesting. With the old rules they could easily make for unfun games when amassed and the new rules have made them 10 times more broken. My suggested solution is currently:

Against non-vehicle models:
1 - 1 wound
2-5 - D3+1 wounds, Ignores Cover
6 - D6+2 wounds, Ignores Cover and FnP

Against Vehicles (including superheavies):
1 - Penetrating hit
2-5 - Penetrating hit, +1 to damage table, Ignores cover
6 - Explodes, Ignores cover, 2D3 lost HP's on superheavies.

Playtesting will have to determine if the results needs tweaking and if the old Superheavy Damage Table will be put to use.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

It's fine to disagree, but keep it civil.

Arguing the finer points is fine, but lets keep it from becoming a flame war please.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Zion said:


> It's fine to disagree, but keep it civil.
> 
> Arguing the finer points is fine, but lets keep it from becoming a flame war please.


I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not really seeing any smoke, but that might be because only mods are given the heat vision goggles to anticipate when the posters are brandishing their flamethrowers.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not really seeing any smoke, but that might be because only mods are given the heat vision goggles to anticipate when the posters are brandishing their flamethrowers.


I've had enough fights on the internet to see when people are likely to grab those flamethrowers. A friendly reminder is all that really is before it gets that far is all.


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Against Vehicles (including superheavies):
> 1 - Penetrating hit
> 2-5 - Penetrating hit, +1 to damage table, Ignores cover
> 6 - Explodes, Ignores cover, *2D3* lost HP's on superheavies.


2D3? you mean a D6?  couldnt resist.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

SwedeMarine said:


> 2D3? you mean a D6?  couldnt resist.


2D3 would have different results to a D6, you can never roll a 1.


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

Sufficiently chastised  I hadnt even thought of that.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> lThe fact that the old Traitor boxout has been expanded to Orks is pretty stupid, in my opinion. Orks have their own formations, their own IA stuff, but now have access to everyone else's datasheets as long as it's vehicular. Ork Phantom Titan? Check. Ork Baneblade Company? Check. Ork Heldrake Fear Squadron? Check. And all of this is allowed in the book.


That is in the Forging a Narrative section, so only applies if your battle is supposed to be (vaguely) fluffy.

Otherwise everyone can take everything.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ah. I was under the impression Allies worked under the 6th Edition Allies Chart, with the exception of Come the Apocalypse... Allies becoming Desperate Allies (the Apocalypse *has* come, so it makes sense - Hive Fleet Behemoth will ally with Ultramarines when pigs fly, but this is the dark age of flying pigs, so it's canon), and the boxouts providing further exceptions for Chaos and Orks.

Still cool. Doomsday Device got a hell of a lot better, ignoring glancing hits is a solid lot better now (but then again, each pen removes 3 Hull Points automatically, so I don't know if that's a good thing...)

Midnight


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> 2D3 would have different results to a D6, you can never roll a 1.


Exactly! It also averages better than a single D6.

I'm not as happy about really gamechanging, random effects as GW seems to be.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Question: In the Chaos Marines strategic assets you can choose to deploy a chaos altar to help your models. Is there an official model for this altar? Is that a marker? There are some rules for it? it is impassable? a building? an area terrain? can i model my own? can I use, as i am planning, the old Temple of Skulls GW terrain? Am i missing something? Where are we coming from? Where are we going and why?
Thank you guys
+rep for the answer, of course


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

neferhet said:


> Question: In the Chaos Marines strategic assets you can choose to deploy a chaos altar to help your models. Is there an official model for this altar? Is that a marker? There are some rules for it? it is impassable? a building? an area terrain? can i model my own? can I use, as i am planning, the old Temple of Skulls GW terrain? Am i missing something? Where are we coming from? Where are we going and why?
> Thank you guys
> +rep for the answer, of course


There is no official model for this altar. It is essentially an objective marker (which can be made however you wish technically). The Asset needs to be used before deployment and allows the chaos player to placer a marker within their deployment zone to represent a ritual altar (no full model is needed). All friendly Chaos units within 12" of this marker had a 6+ invulnerable save. If that already have and invulnerable save they add +1 to it. You can certainly still use the old temple of skulls terrain if there is room for it but distance has to be measured from the center of the model(unless you place a marker on that specific terrain). other than that it does not count as a building (although you can place it in one if you have buildings in your deployment zone). as for your last two questions mate i have no idea, I try to just live in the now . It gets the old lady furious sometimes . If you've got anymore questions go ahead and list them under the Apocalypse Questions answered thread.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Thank you very much swedemarine k:


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

Anytime


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Does the Legion Relic affect the AP of a model's attacks?

Midnight


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## SwedeMarine (Jun 3, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> Does the Legion Relic affect the AP of a model's attacks?
> 
> Midnight


By legion relic im assuming you are talking about the space marine Relic Weapon strategic asset. No it only affects strength and # of attacks


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

SwedeMarine said:


> By legion relic im assuming you are talking about the space marine Relic Weapon strategic asset. No it only affects strength and # of attacks


Indeed, Relic Weapon. Good to know it's still crap, I'll be taking Crusade Banner and Vortex Grenade about a million years before I take Relic Weapon. Guess it could be kind of funny with the Mace of Redemptipn for 6 Str10 attacks with Blind, Concussive and AP2 vs. Chaos, or on Belial for 6 Str10 Thunder Hammer attacks, but still pretty awful all things considered.

Midnight


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