# Castigator Titans...



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I just encountered info about this thing as I was browsing...it sounds like it's worth more than 100 Imperator Titans

Shouldn't there be a comparable Eldar Titan? I mean, Eldar are supposed to be more advanced than even DAoT humanity...yet their stuff seems only to be roughly on par with Imperial stuff

Exactly, this makes me want to ask the question: how exactly are golden age Eldar superior to DAoT humanity (with all of these overpowered STCs)?


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## Kelann08 (Nov 22, 2011)

Most of their homeworlds are now inside the Eye of Terror and the only survivors were those who were already living on Craftworlds. Its very likely that they were not able to evacuate their largest creations and have had limited resources and means to build the few they do have. My guess is also that they simply wouldn't have the space to transport a titan the size of a Castigator.


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## Ghost-Bat (Jun 17, 2012)

What's difficult for comparison between the 'Castigator-Class' and what the Eldar have to offer is that the Castigator has only seemingly been encountered once in established lore. And several details, including claims made by the Daemon possessing the Castigator, have led me to personally conclude that this War Titan was essentially a singular creation and heavily influenced by a corrupted STC and millennia spent in the Warp besides.

And if the Eldar indeed had war machines of comparable scale, then like Kelann08 said, they've been long lost to the Eye of Terror.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

We don't know even about Pre-Fall Eldar or Dark Age of Technology Humans to make an accurate assessment. At best we have vague references and one off examples of technology. 

We know the eldar were the dominant galactic power post necrons (the issue of being an essentially unchanged 60million year old empire is a completely different issue and one i won't touch on here) and that they possessed robotic constructs to work and fight for them. If we take what the eldar claim at face value they were apparently able to 'quench suns' and that the 'stars themselves once lived and died' at their command. Which suggests a high technology base. 

We also know thanks to the Dark Eldar that they had dimensional technologies, able to create pocket dimensions, navigate the webway, etc. Additionally a lot of their technology seems intrinsically psychic. Wraithebone being the obvious example which is psychically responsive. 

So the eldar likely had war constructs comparable or in excess of the Castigator (and other examples of human archeo-tech. However as has been pointed out the heart of the empire is in the epicentre of the Eye of Terror. Remember too that the Craftworld eldar are the refugee remnants of the eldar empire and a tiny fraction of their population. They were a small reactionary movement that rejected the lifestyle (and likely a lot of the technology that came it) of their kin. 

Ultimately though the pre-30k period is really not very well defined, with a lot of issues and inconsistencies. A lot of it's fairly poorly thought out and doesn't stand up to close scrutiny and there are a lot of unanswered questions.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

I've never of this Titan class before. Where does it appear?


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## Ghost-Bat (Jun 17, 2012)

The Castigator Titan makes it's one and only appearance, that I know of, in Ben Counter's Dark Adeptus, second book in the Grey Knights Omnibus.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Is this not a case of "titan escalation" and "my titan is bigger than yours" in a book, I know the plausibility argument breaks early in 40k but why would they even want a larger titan than the Phantom? in this case I would guess that more of the smaller ones would be more beneficial than just going larger.

That said, as people have stated - little is known of the golden age of the Eldar but extrapolating what they have now you could easily reach all kinds of conclusions as to what they had.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The Castigator class titan was presented as the Ur-Titan design from the golden age of technology, an older and cleaner technology far in advance of anything possessed by both the Imperium and the Traitor Legions. Which all other titan designs had been derived from. The interior view of the Castigator is nearly wondrous, futuristic experience. All controlled by the AI in charge of the titan. But somehow a daemon had entered the Castigator construct, having been burried for so many ages that it had forgotten what it was. Believing itself to be nothing more than a sentient AI, until Alaric reminded it and it took its true daemonic form. in the Ai form, it had no daemonic emanations that alaric could sense.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> We know the eldar were the dominant galactic power post necrons


I was always under the impression that DAoT humanity dominated the galaxy. At the very least, DAoT humanity was the 2nd most powerful galactic civilisation.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Eh *shrugs*, the information we have is too vague and conflicting. In their respective fluff both are attributed as great galactic powers, each supposedly holding dominion over the galaxy. 

There's no tales about them engaged in conflict however, or just how much territory they had (though both side's suggest 'all of it). Nor does either side mention the other.

You just have to 'hand wave' it away and imagine it all working out somehow to get to the current stage. Employ your suspension of disbelief (that one has to use again when imaging the eldar empire lasting for millions of years with on an evolutionary and galactic scale no change). Perhaps the Fall of the Eldar had already started and the eldar were content to keep to themselves in debauchery whilst humanity usurped their position. We don't know how centralised humanity was either, or if it even was an empire of a vast multitude of independent colonies. It may have been that the eldar were prepared to tolerate humanities' expansion as long as they were not a coherent empire.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

They would not have to have something of the same scale, just something more effective, the germans built about 1600 big bad tiger tanks in ww2, the russians built 50,000+ t34s!!, a cheap r.p.g can definitely damage and immobilise a multi million main battle tank. The eldar seem to favor elegant and mobile tech where man likes hulking brutish colossi, and as already stated the eldar of 40k are refugees reduced to cave man status compared to their fallen ancestors.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

To be fair to the Tigers, their heavy tank companies such as the 503rd had a kill to loss ration of 15 to 1 and more were abandoned by their crews than lost to enemy fire. Horribly expensive, unreliable and over engineered but bloody deadly. Though the Soviets weren't much better at the other end of the spectrum sending men to battle without ammo and tanks without radios.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I was always under the impression that DAoT humanity dominated the galaxy. At the very least, DAoT humanity was the 2nd most powerful galactic civilisation.


The general impression is that the Eldar Empire at its peak was far more powerful than the DAoT human federations. Though it should not be forgotten that the humans of this era colonised large swathes of the galaxy, which was presumably tolerated by the Eldar, considering no known _major_ conflict between the two powers has been revealed. Though it is noted that the humans maintained several "non-aggression pacts" with several alien civilisations, so it seems most likely that the Eldar were one of these.

The relationship between the two factions would likely have deteriorated during the Age of Strife though.



Rems said:


> Eh *shrugs*, the information we have is too vague and conflicting. In their respective fluff both are attributed as great galactic powers, each supposedly holding dominion over the galaxy.


I don't think the DAoT human federations are noted as holding "dominion over the galaxy". The Eldar Empire certainly is though, with their codex claiming that no other civilisation had threatened their dominion for "millennia".



Rems said:


> We don't know how centralised humanity was either, or if it even was an empire of a vast multitude of independent colonies.


I believe one of the only clues we have is that they are referred to as the "human federations". They certainly weren't as centralised as the Imperium anyway.



Rems said:


> It may have been that the eldar were prepared to tolerate humanities' expansion as long as they were not a coherent empire.


Or that in their arrogance they simply didn't care.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't think the DAoT human federations are noted as holding "dominion over the galaxy".


Doesn't the Collected Visions timeline says something to that effect?


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Some info on the Castigator (as i remember it) and why it is a STUPID titan. I don't think mr Counter was sober the day he thought it up.

It's larger than a warlord titan. (Fine)
It's design has a more human feel, the head on top of the shoulder instead of in front. (Ugly)
It's completely liquid metal. (WTFexpensive)
IT HAS NO VOID SHIELDS!!!
It has laughable weapons. (Pew pew five deamon thingies appear.)
It's ridiculously posh and stupid. (-"I'm the bestest titan ever, ya rly")

SPOILER ALERT!!!



Not to mention the completely stupid chaos admiral who was to collect this titan for the chaos legions.
When he arrives, the grey knights (not surprisingly) manages to kill the big baddie

The chaos admiral sees this and decides that there was no meaning picking up anything else and decides to destroy 100 battle-ready reaver titans.....

Most stupid character ever.



Plainly, the Castigator is a fun idea. But badly executed since Ben Counter didn't fully read up on the mechanicus background. Getting things wrong and confusing the 40k world.

Try to ignore it. A phantom or warlord titan would (at least should) own it in any fight.
A warhound should take it down without dificulty.

Serisously.... no void shiels? Auto repair woop-di-doo, not gonna help you against volcano cannons.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Ridiculously little detail has been given on the Titan's capabilities though.

I've always thought of the Castigator as a Galactic Colossus for those familiar with it.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The general impression is that the Eldar Empire at its peak was far more powerful than the DAoT human federations. ..


We don't know that though. What remains from DAoT humanity is certainly impressive-they could generate black holes, field robot armies and so on.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't think the DAoT human federations are noted as holding "dominion over the galaxy". The Eldar Empire certainly is though, with their codex claiming that no other civilisation had threatened their dominion for "millennia"...


Can't a case be made that "dominion" here means "realm" instead of "supermacy? Because that might make more sense-the eldar sit on their relatively tiny empire, while humanity settles and rules the rest of the galaxy.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I believe one of the only clues we have is that they are referred to as the "human federations". They certainly weren't as centralised as the Imperium anyway..


There's an awful lot of history though. I bet a lot of things changed over the 20ish millenia before the Age of Strife.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I remember a w40k comic with Marshal Byzantane from Execution Hour, where he and his arbites interupted a mechanicus coven working on a forbidden world, that turned out to contain a sentient, true A.I. that had been burried in the darkness for twenty thousand years. By its own words, its creators had been afraid of what they had created and burried it, and that they had been right to be afraid. It wanting out to dominate the machines of the imperium.

The DAoT era humans reached the zenith of technological advances, creating sentient software that eventually ended turning on its makers and starting the decline into the Age of Strife.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> I remember a w40k comic with Marshal Byzantane from Execution Hour, where he and his arbites interupted a mechanicus coven working on a forbidden world, that turned out to contain a sentient, true A.I. that had been burried in the darkness for twenty thousand years. By its own words, its creators had been afraid of what they had created and burried it, and that they had been right to be afraid. It wanting out to dominate the machines of the imperium.
> 
> The DAoT era humans reached the zenith of technological advances, creating sentient software that eventually ended turning on its makers and starting the decline into the Age of Strife.


Is the comic to which you're referring in Warhammer Monthly?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Is the comic to which you're referring in Warhammer Monthly?



Was in this one
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Flames-of-Damnation.html

Those books collected a lot of the comics in some of the ancient warhammer magazines.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Was in this one
> http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Flames-of-Damnation.html
> Those books collected a lot of the comics in some of the ancient warhammer magazines.


Huh...didn't even know it existed


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