# Why do people hate the Ultramarines?



## The Son of Horus

It's cool to hate on the Ultramarines-- but why do we do it? What is it about the Thirteenth Legion that's so very despicable? Their color scheme is decent, they're the sort of epitome of Space Marine-ness... but yet, everyone seems to hate them. So, tell me, why do you hate the Ultramarines? 

Honestly, the only thing I can think of that's wrong with them is only problematic because they're the sort of iconic Space Marines-- if Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, or Space Wolves were in the same position as the sort of GW sample models of sorts, I'd find them as unoriginal when they show up at the table as the Ultramarines. But that's it-- it really just seems like the Ultramarines player just took their cue from GW and didn't put any thought into it when they show up with 2nd Company Ultramarines. I know that's not necessarily the case, because they're a First Founding Chapter and the blue and gold was what the old Legion wore-- but really, that's the only gripe I can come up with. Does it just seem like people can't stand Space Marines in blue because the internet is a forum for anonymous bitching, or can someone enlighten me as to why people actually really do hate the Ultramarines?


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## cccp

is it because they get all the updates and new models? or because they're the GW base army that kids play?


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## 10228

Well personally I love the Ultramarines and I can't understand why so many hate them. I think that it is a great colour scheme, and I also think that just because it is an unoriginal paint scheme doesn't mean that you can't make it look great through your skill as a painter. After all, Thousand Sons are blue and gold and people like them!



cccp said:


> is it because they get all the updates and new models? or because they're the GW base army that kids play?


Just like to point out that I am not a kid, and I play them. I also want to know why people hate GW so much. They are the reason this forum exists! (fixed up some spelling in your post :biggrin


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## N0rdicNinja

The similarities are astounding!


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## TheUnmarked

Actually I think that it has to do with how popular it is to hate the ultramarine's, in an attempt to be different many people copy others who also be different to the establishment or mom and dad figure (GW) and therefore rebel by hating that which represents it. A bit like Emo kids actually or anyone acting up to be 'Unique and individual' which in reality is just copying someone other than their parents or the established authority.
The short of it has to be that humans just aren't all that original.


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## darklove

I don't like how they get so much new stuff all the time while other armies are just ignored. My army is 2 editions out of date, yet Ultras get a new dex within a few months of the newest edition!


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## TheUnmarked

Granted the fact that how often fantasy army books get updated the fact that only the SM codex for 40K gets regular updates is a real load of bullshit.


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## Syph

I think the biggest thing is just pure 'resentment' (maybe a little strong for some people at least) - I'd be miffed if I had a Dark Eldar army that hadn't seen any updates. 

I tend to see more Blood Angels armies and spin offs rather than UMs though, certainly a lot more kids with those armies. I think it might be the vampire thing that attracts them (and they're definitely more 'bad-ass'). 

I started collecting UMs back in 1995 and I really hadn't a clue what to collect. All I remember is the staff giving my friend and I an undercoated marine, asked us what colours we liked, and I picked blue. 'That'd be the Ultramarines'; so I painted it as an UM. I bought a squad of 5 and the UM Captain (the one the current Sicarius model is based on) and haven't looked back. 

I don't know if that's how a lot of kids get into it still or whether in fact UMs _are_ the most collected army. I'm assuming they are, I dunno. As I said, I think people hate them because their own armies haven't had the regularity of releases as them.


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## Red Orc

I both play Ultras, and (I think) understand why people hate them.

It is to do with them being the 'standard' Chapter, and the Second Company, because that's the GW Studio army, is the one that gets in all the publicity material - WD, posters, adverts, the Codex... so the 2nd Co is everywhere.

This produces a familiarity (at least with the imagery) that breeds contempt, the feeling that GW are pushing the 2nd Co Ultras as the 'norm'. And let's face it, who wants to be in this hobby to be 'normal' (read, 'unimaginative')?

In my defence, I didn't know I was painting my son's Ultras as 2nd Co, it had all changed since I used to play many years ago; I - armed with Codex that said Company Iconography could be applied in numerous places, and an old WD that said that the 5th Company was disgraced, which I thought sounded cool - painted them with gold trim because that's what all the (new) Ultras I'd seen looked like, then gave them black kneepads to represent 5th Co. Yeah yeah; I didn't know, and in the end repainting the kneepad was easier than repainting all the trim.

But things as simple as the old squad-with-the-paints, they were included with a guide to painting (2nd Co) Ultras. BfM and AoBR, they're 2nd Co Ultras. They really are everywhere. And that annoys people I think; both those don't play Ultras, because the Salamanders, White Scars, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Fleshtearers or whoever get really very little attention, and those who play Ultras, because the rest of you take the piss out us.

I _like_ the Ultramarines. I like the Romanesque, classical look of them (I like the Thousand Sons too, not just because they're blue and gold); I also like many other chapters - the Sallies and White Scars, Blood Angels (for fluff reasons mainly), Dark Angels (_sooo_ Goth) and probably my fave chapter going back to RT days would be the Crimson Fists (who were in many ways usurped by the Ultras in the '90s).

If the Crimson Fists were the 'GW Poster Boys' would the Ultras been seen as imaginative and the CFs as 'safe/dull'? Probably. Any 'GW poster boys' are going to run the risk of alienating a lot of people who see their chapter being ignored.

Of course, the answer isn't to make the CFs or the Sallies or whoever the new poster boys, I think that would be to make the same mistake with a different chapter - it's just to place less emphasis on the Ultras and spread the love a little. I think that is happening a bit, I've certainly seen more CF lists and Sallie lists in the past few weeks than any time since... records began.

But on the other hand, the Raven Guard seem to have slipped off the radar and there's no great signs of a White Scar revival, so...

I dunno. I think it boils down to: non-Ultra players, please cut us some slack, it's not our fault GW push the Ultras; Ultras players, let's support the players of 'minority' chapters and give them a bit of appreciation, because they don't get half anough love from GW.

:tolerance and moderation cyclops:


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## killmaimburn

I mostly think people resent the Ultras because of all the love GW gives them. I mean, come on, look at the new UM characters. Tigurius is probably about = to ahriman (which makes NO sense) and Calgar has one of the beastliest retinues in the game, as well as an awesome ability to control the battlefield. I don't know too much about chronus and teclion, but I hear sicarius is a beast. And when I see the ultramarines getting _three_ characters when salamanders and raven guard only get _one_ and the iron hands don't get _any_, well, that's just not fair. And also, I've got some resentment as a chaos player because their new codex is good in every way that ours is bad.


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## KellysGrenadier

I don't like any Space Marines, let alone Ultramarines.

-Edit

Because everyone plays them.


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## Deneris

BWLAF93 said:


> Well personally I love the Ultramarines and I can't understand why so many hate them. I think that it is a great colour scheme, and I also think that just because it is an unoriginal paint scheme doesn't mean that you can't make it look great through your skill as a painter. After all, Thousand Sons are blue and gold and people like them!


Aye... it's odd how often my Thousand Sons get called Ultramarines just because we have blue armour as well... 

And I don't know WHY people dislike the Smurfs. If anything, I see more Blood Ravens armies (Thanks to DoW) than Ultramarines. Perhaps because GW depicts the Ultras on every box of SM product? (I imagine they like it because the blue looks good against the popular backdrop of flames/darkness)...


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## Vaz

Ultras are just the embodiment of normality. They are secure, knowledgeable, and seen as infallible, when we know they aren't.

Games Workshop chose the Ultramarines, because they were the ones who came up with the idea to have a Codex Astartes, or the Idiots Guide to shoot a gun straight. They follow it like a creed, and that's just boring. Having someone who goes "sod the system" is much more fun.

However, for knowlegeable and Infallible, you've got the Grey Knights, but they're liked because they look like 'knights', have big spears and are regularly tested in Close Combat against those who are seen as the ultimate evil. That's bad, so they're good.

While The Ultras, they just put the beat down on races like the Orks, who are less Evil, but more Chaotic, looking for a fight instead of destruction. Just seen as bully boys really.


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## surreal-mind

i simply hate the colour blue, its EVIL (refer to sig)


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## comrade

Lol.. its the same for me, I hate the Color blue...

Now red on the other hand........ Long live my Tech-Commies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Malagate

I agree with a lot of the posters here as to why the Ultras are quite so hated.
They are very highly exposed, they are pretty much the poster boys of GW and WH40K.
They are presented as THE Codex chapter, the shining example to all the rest of the chapters.
They are Peter Perfect, who can do no wrong, flawless in every way, and that just grates on some people.

Not to mention that I wouldn't be particularly tempted to play Space Marines in ANY form, even if it was a very obscure chapter, due to the simple fact that they're everywhere. There still is a tiny inkling to get some, maybe a very unknown chapter or an original one ("The Space Ponies" for example) and not use any special characters, but really I'd rather collect an underused army.


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## bobss

for me its all that blue, i mean theres not enough of another colour to balance it out, and the fact annoying, spoilt ( the list goes on... ) kids play them alot. but my main reason is them getting updated so often when other armies really need it. for example down at my local gw the new wave of space marines arnt that popular where as a new or updated army like dark angels previously got a much bigger audience although less models were released and there are fewer players etc

p.s comrade, how do u live in the soviet union lol ?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm

i think that red orc hit on the dot, this same kind of resentment is happening on the chaos side with the Black Legion, there are soooooo many chaos players who play Black Legion its not even funny, just like those damned smurfs in armor. 

for those who got into the army and actually love the fluff and whatnot, kudos to you, but for the most part the people that i have faced who play these armies are doing it just because they dont want to have to choose a more "difficult" chapter or army, they simply have no imagination. not to mention how the Black Legion now has the miraculous power to allow a berserker, plague marine, noisemarine, AND a thousand son to all be in the same army and sometimes squad:shok:


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## CommanderAnthor

People hate them because;

Everything at GW is compared to them.
Everything new that comes out has somthing to do with them.
They are most worked on.
Some claim them to be cheap
Tons of people play them usually little people.
And maybe because Calgar fluff and game wise.

Fluff maybe because hes so praised when he's never actually fought someone else strong other than a tyranid and also he was almost destroyed by one.

And a reason I Hate them even though I play them is because when someone goes GW and wants to try the game at first the staff ALWAYS suggest the goddamn UltraMarines.

Even though I played fists before I switchedto smurfs I have no regrets.


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## squeek

I don't hate them, I just find it a little cheesy that there are so many UM players and they are plastered all over GW stuff. In much the same way, most people either support Man Utd or hate them, no middle ground as they are the classic choice for unimaginative football fans.

(That is not to say that all UM and Man U fans are unimaginative, just that lots of them are there because the choice was easy).


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## Herbert

Red Orc got this right spot on. Its because the Ultras are seen as THE space marines and that they get all the new releases/rules. When in fact they just happen to be another Chapter in amongst thousands of others. The use of the Ultra Chapter by GW on the product packaging is to help us identify product instore when buying. Im sure this must happen with other armies ie all eldar same, Orks all same etc. On top of that GW does appear to use the Ultras in a lot of other material from tutorials to cover art etc. All these other images just go to enforce our perception that Ultras are THE space marines. So in my opinion its over exposure to the Ultras as to why folk dont entirely like them.


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## countchocula86

As others have stated, I mostly dislike the Ultramarines because they are the main GW army, 'daddys boys' as it were. Add to that, the fact that they are such goody goody rule followers. They the norm, the baseline. Ultramarines are the unadorned plain vanilla sundae of the WH40K world, and frankly I like sprinkles.

Sometimes it just feels like they are the army that involves no creativity. (I know thats not strictly true, but it has that feeling sometime) They are sort of spoon fed army, in that GW builds and disseminates the fluff for them, and people just "blindly obey"

I do, however, quite like the paint scheme of the army.

But in the end, I dont think people really hate the Smurfs, its more that they are the GW mould army, used to illustrate points, and really the fun is in taking the foundation and building your own unique army on top of that.


ps. Im not intending to trod on UM players toes, the above are just my personal feelings.


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## Wraithian

Red Orc, bang-on target, as usual. :biggrin:

My personal contempt (if I were to use such a strong word for it) really isn't the UM's, but in "Codex Chapters" in general. As I've stated before, Chaos got stripped of it's options and general, "fluffiness," for the sake of streamlining, and streamlining was the *supposed* way of 5th ed codecis, then I took a look at the new "Codex: Fanboy" and about sold my stuff on e-bay. Since, a more even-tempered approach has been adapted, and I'm okay now. :wink:

For you folks who've played codex chapters for a while, I have respect for you, as I do for anyone who's been playing for a while, and I can appreciate where you're at when it comes to having a new codex thrown your way, it's a good feeling, there's no denying. I remember feeling the same way when the 4th ed Chaos 'dex came out (anyone else remember the abortion from 3rd ed known as, "Pamphlet: Chaos?").

The reason I jokingly (mind my humor, it's a tad dark, and a bit cynical--if you can't laugh at yourself and all that, right?) refer to the new marine codex as "Codex: Fanboy" is due to the insane amount of new folks getting into them (as with any comparison I make, according to my own demigraphic), not for the models (hell, one kid I know who got into vanilla marines hates the models), but for the power of the dex, and the power alone. One of my friends got into marines, after playing chaos for years, as he says, "I feel it's the only way I can keep up, anymore." Another guy (and an idea I've even given some consideration to) is using his chaos marines with the new marine dex as a "counts as" renegade army. 

So, (for those of you who skipped my "Block O'Text" to the conclusion) I feel it isn't the UM's specifically. It's codex marines in general. Not because of any one reason, but for a few. Probably the biggest being balance and attention. I don't think the ridiculous amount of time between one codex release and the next is due to time taken to write the thing as much as it is to coincide with new model releases, which makes a certain amount of sense. But, to those who don't play codex marines, it's a kick in the teeth, seeing as we still have 3rd edition codecis floating around.

Speaking of, I have much respect for you DE and Nec players out there. Sticking with your armies, even though you've been given no love for two editions now.

Balance in all things...


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## Marneus Calgar

It's a bad emotion call Jealousy


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## Deneris

Jealousy? I'd say it's more a healthy dose of contempt. :wink:


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## Cole Deschain

I don;t much care for them, but then again, I don;t run ANY of the "official" chapters.

The fun of building an army, for me, is in making your own.

All I really have against the Smurfs is Calgar... I actually use a proxied Sicarius to get back some of the stuff I lost with Traits.


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## gwmaniac

maybe cuz it's funny to hate the most popular chapter. and wouldn't it be annoying to always play against ultramarines? i've played ten times against ultramarines at my gw. of course, i shouldn't be talking, i have 5,000 points of ultramarines!!


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## Hidemons

Ultramarines are like the obnoxious "I'm so smart" kid at school who is always sucking up to the teacher. (GW)


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## Underground Heretic

I remember hearing something about those 'pointy-eared bastards.'

An element of rivalry in competition can help a lot, as long as it's friendly. Some armies are tactical opposites (BA and Tau) while some are trying to out do each other (BT and Orks). The UM are just plastered everywhere by GW and they can easily attract hatred if you haven't played against them. A well played army can engender hatred, or an "overpowered" army. Anyway, having someone to rag on can be a lot of fun if it's all in good fun.


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## LeeHarvey

I hate Ultramarines because they are like the Dallas Cowboys of Space Marines. They always win, GW pushes them like crack-cocaine and they are the Uber-Boyscouts of the 41st millenium. I mean really, the codex makes it sound like Ultras are the only real Space Marines since their Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes and they are the progenetors of more than half the chapters currently active. Basically, I hate them because GW wants everyone to love them. I am an underdog kinda guy.


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## Cole Deschain

LeeHarvey said:


> they are like the Dallas Cowboys of Space Marines. They always win


You sure about that comparison? :grin:


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## LordWaffles

They're the only marine army that hasn't had it's fluff contradicted,(Including chaos marines) while still writing new stuff.

Everything they use in fluff has a model.

Oh also they're perfect in every way, shape, and form and never ever lose. They take the grimdark out of 40k. Just like a damn tau.


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## LeeHarvey

Well, the cowboys a few years ago anyway. Good call Cole.:laugh:


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## CommanderAnthor

To round itoff everyone hates them cause their better than you.


I'm jk lol.


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## cooldudeskillz

i like ultramarines...i just hate how Gw uses them all the time to promote warhammer 40k all the time, why not use a diffierent chapter one in a while or even a diffierent race

also the space marines are always being updated, what about dark eldar and necrons.

next codex release orders:
necrons
space marines
imperial guard 
space marines
other space marine chapter codex's
dark eldar
space marines
space marines again...they were to weak in the previous dex


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## Cato Sicarius

BWLAF93 said:


> Well personally I love the Ultramarines and I can't understand why so many hate them. I think that it is a great colour scheme, and I also think that just because it is an unoriginal paint scheme doesn't mean that you can't make it look great through your skill as a painter. After all, Thousand Sons are blue and gold and people like them!
> 
> 
> 
> Just like to point out that I am not a kid, and I play them. I also want to know why people hate GW so much. They are the reason this forum exists! (fixed up some spelling in your post :biggrin


Agreein' with every word!


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## Dessel_Ordo

For me its not that they are clearly prefered, its how GW pushes them constantly that makes me dislike them.


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## Wusword77

I like codex chapters, I would just prefer if GW would not mention the Ultra's so much in the SM Codexs.

They should print it up like it was the actual Codex Astartes, with the Special charaters available from many chapters, but focusing on the history of many of the chapters, not just the Ultras.

I'd much rather paint my own army and come up with my own fluff then use a baseline.

Oh and I hate Cassius' model


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## CommanderAnthor

Wusword77 said:


> Oh and I hate Cassius' model


He hates you too! HMPH!


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## Cato Sicarius

Wusword77 said:


> I like codex chapters, I would just prefer if GW would not mention the Ultra's so much in the SM Codexs.
> 
> They should print it up like it was the actual Codex Astartes, with the Special charaters available from many chapters, but focusing on the history of many of the chapters, not just the Ultras.
> 
> I'd much rather paint my own army and come up with my own fluff then use a baseline.
> 
> Oh and I hate Cassius' model


Except that the actual Codex Astartes includes how the entirety of the Imperial Guard should be set out, and the Imperial Fleet, and it wouldn't have special characters, and the Codex Astartes does not contain rules for a game, and it does not mention the history of anything at all. Plus, that would be a 900 page tome which would cost you the equivalent of a large tree (i.e. £200 per book). So the best they can do other than that is to write about the one Chapter than completely and utterly (to the letter) follows this 900 page book (the almighty Ultramarines).

Also, I don't like the Marneus Calgar model in Terminator Armour, nor do I like the Tigurius model, nor do I like the background of Sergeant Chronus, but that's no reason not to like the Ultramarines. I don't like the Abbadon model, but I do quite like is rules and the Black Legion itself.

You have now been pwnt, completely and utterly, by the best Character ever, Cato Sicarius himself, of the Ultramarines.


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## surreal-mind

apart fro the blue thing, its just that SM take too much glory. i wish they would update dark eldar, i <3 their rules but HATE their models.... im sure alot of people agree


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## Blue Liger

As for me, I'm sick of seeing them get updated like every 6 months or when the slightest update to the rules comes out and there are still 6 armies on/off the shelves with barely any models left that need updating to the new rules becasue they are still on thier 1st or 2nd ed Codex, were done in 3rd ed Rules and we are now up to 5th ed Rules. Apart from that, the fact that in the codex they have overpowered the new SM Codex as they have som much freaking stuff and now because of it the have to go and redo all the other Sm Codexs and then finally get back to doing other races and by then, they need a new rule book, meaning SM get redone again. 

Aftewr saying all this I haven't lost to the new SM Codex yet and I'm using a 2nd Ed DE Codex from the 3r ed Rules.... SUCK THAT GAY MARINERS WE CAN STILL KICK YOUR BUT ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!


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## surreal-mind

gratz to you

PS: i respect anyone brave enough to use those horible DE models


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## Imperial Dragon

I don't hate ultramarines the armies i've seen like sick. but it's more that space marines get updated every week it seems like or something new for them comes out. blue liger you great, people like you make me wish i played DE too, there models while old, were good for there days (well i think any way) and there one of the harder armies to play, so good on you blue liger keep on kicking the Space marines butts.


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## Cato Sicarius

@ surreal-mind & Blue Liger: Guys this isn't about Codex Chapters - this is about the Ultramarines in particular. So the fact that they get updated so often isn't actually a valid reason as then that would mean that you hate all Codex Chapters. Of course if you say in you post that you _do_ hate all Codex chapters then this is a valid option I suppose.


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## Ste

They concentrate on bringing outa tonne of models for UM and none for the likes of The Relictors, Raven Guard, Salamnders etc. The UM have 4 special characters were as alot only have one or in the relictors case none :\ give the other chapters some love


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## Malagate

Ste said:


> They concentrate on bringing outa tonne of models for UM and none for the likes of The Relictors, Raven Guard, Salamanders etc. The UM have 4 special characters were as alot only have one or in the relictors case none : give the other chapters some love


If they went around giving almost every single chapter some unique special characters, the book would be ten times longer, especially if you included chapters that are nigh-on annihilated according to the fluff (such as Relictors). A lot of chapters have almost zero fluff beyond the fact that they showed up at battle X or have appeared on the cover of a "how to paint citadel minatures 1998" book, if they actually fleshed even a tenth of such chapters out then there'd be about 20 more unique Space Marine Codeceis ala Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc.

Whilst there is obviously an UM bias, you should consider it fortunate that there are any special characters which are NOT ultramarines, especially as you can just proxy out the rules to apply to whatever chapter you want. Although I do think it's kinda lame that you could have Marneus Calgar in different paint schemes fighting all around the Galaxy, it is at least an option, even if it's one I would never take.

Besides, I thought Raven Guard and Salamanders already had a special character each? I don't see how having more would be good, but then I'm not a fan of using special characters anyway. I think the only reason this post has gone on so long is because your post came across as a whine that your favourite SM legion has been ignored since a 3rd Edition Chapter Approved, just be grateful that you actually have something recently released that you can use regardless of fluff, unlike a lot of other much more bitter collectors.


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## Marneus Calgar

I still reckon it's Jealousy, cause we are the GW poster boys


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## Wusword77

Cato Sicarius said:


> Except that the actual Codex Astartes includes how the entirety of the Imperial Guard should be set out, and the Imperial Fleet, and it wouldn't have special characters, and the Codex Astartes does not contain rules for a game, and it does not mention the history of anything at all. Plus, that would be a 900 page tome which would cost you the equivalent of a large tree (i.e. £200 per book). So the best they can do other than that is to write about the one Chapter than completely and utterly (to the letter) follows this 900 page book (the almighty Ultramarines).
> 
> Also, I don't like the Marneus Calgar model in Terminator Armour, nor do I like the Tigurius model, nor do I like the background of Sergeant Chronus, but that's no reason not to like the Ultramarines. I don't like the Abbadon model, but I do quite like is rules and the Black Legion itself.
> 
> You have now been pwnt, completely and utterly, by the best Character ever, Cato Sicarius himself, of the Ultramarines.



pwnt how? I never said I didn't like the UM's just that I didn't want to see them on every page of the codex.

I also said they should write up the codex LIKE it is the Codex Astartes, meaning just detailing what the units are and when they should be deployed. Adding in characters and fluff is what makes it a rule book for a game. They should detail histories for many chapters and not just focus on the UMs

Finally I think the ultra marines generate a lot of fanboy players and i think thats why people don't like them :biggrin:


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## Shugotenshi47

For the most part I don't hate UM but the thing I dislike the most is that they are almost too vanilla, for example the IG vanilla army, Cadian 8th has doctrines you can use to flesh it out a bit, but UM don't have that besides Tyrannic War Vets which I do not see played as often as they would be used


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## Gul Torgo

I find the name quite irritating, it comes across like something a kindergartner would come up with. Thankfully GW hasn't pressed on and given us Supernecrons and Awesomeeldar.


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## Lord Reevan

For it's because they have everything better than everyone else. Every army has a dark and shameful part in their history, Blood angels with the black rage, dark angels with the fallen, Space wolves with the complete disregard to the codex etc. Yet they have a perfect world, perfect population, perfect fighting style, perfect everything while every other army has stuff like death worlds, hidden secrets etc....


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## Revelations

I think everyone's developing a case of the "Horus Syndrom". GW has shafted and overlooked so many other armies, not to mention absolutely butchered a few in the process, that seeing what they did with the SM codex was a real slap in the face. 

You see some fun, strong yet balanced rules with risks involved in Codecies like Orcs. You see some specific units that are great in what they do but not much beyond that like in Eldar. And you see many things you simply wouldn't take unless you were wasted like in Chaos. And then you waltz over to the SM Codex, and it's like a kid in a candy store; what awsome rule are you going to get this time? 

And then there's Calgar. Because being so awsome wasn't enough, he has to make everyone around himself even more awsome. This guy is the perfect example of; "Was that really neccessary?" I would point you toward his AP2 Bolters. I mean all things considered on his profile, that's like adding salt into the wound. 

While true, it's the SM Codex, I don't think anyone really thinks anything in there beyond a few special characters wasn't designed for the UM. And the abreviation for their name fits, because that's probably what GW was thinking when they came up with the name. Of all the names of SM Chapters, theirs sucks the most. 

I don't ever remember them ever losing a fight. And sure, Calgar rallying a few farmers against a Chaos Legion... I think they'd basically pushed the envelope to the side, set it on fire and then pissed on the ashes. Even their pricey victories go down in the history books. And what happens after said near genocidal victory? Their still one of the largest chapters around. 

It's like having a brother thats better at everything for no reason, gets all the credit, attention and never fails at anything he does even when he's not really trying. While you're busting your ass trying to make ends meet and pay your bills on 2 jobs as he rolls up to your one bedroom apartment in his new Porsche and supermodel girlfriend. 

Yah... f**k you GW. :threaten:


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## Underground Heretic

To be fair, the fluff seems to be written from the Imperium's perspective. The Ultramarines are one of the most logical choices to put forward as the exemplar for a few reasons.

First off, they are Space Marines. By their nature, Space Marines are rare, godlike (compared to regular humans) examples of the Emperor's will. The use of them as a propaganda tool has basically no down sides. The Imperium can say they shoot sunlight out of their anus and no one will say they are wrong because most people never see a Space Marine. If there is a situation dangerous enough for the Marines to show up, no one will care about the lack of anal sunshine, because they will either be dead or praising the emperor that these non-luminescent heroes saved them.

Second, Robert Guliman. This Primarch managed to start running the show with the loyalist survivors. He got his book accepted as holy tactical writ. He even managed to strong arm Rogal Dorn into separating his legion. And now the idiot is in suspended animation, just like the Emperor! making it more likely that people will view him as divinely inspired.

Third, the Ultramarines are the only legion not devastated by the Horus Heresy because they weren't in it! Where they were, who knows? It's like they showed up to a party to find people being led away by the police and asks if something went wrong! Then they have the strength to be able to cow the remaining legions who were actually fighting against Horus and spread like maggots over the dead power structure of the Imperium and get a seat on the High Lords of bloody Terra!

Rant over...for now. Muwahaha!


----------



## The Sullen One

It's like in spy dramas where the hero has gone undercover, and the villains are getting suspicious so the head villain tells one of his minions to do a background check of the hero's cover and the minion tells the villain that the hero has a perfect employment record, crossing every T and dotting every I. At which they're sure the hero's a spy.

And that's the case with the Ultramarines, their just to perfect to be true, no flaws in the genome, no dark secret from ten thousand years ago, no barely controllable rage. Nope they fight when they should fight, retreat when they should retreat, act all diplomatic when they have. In other words their to good, to nice, and that's their problem.

It robbs them of any character, of anything interesting, and leaves them bland and boring. Even Graham McNeil when he was writing the Ultramarines Omnibus focused on a pair of Mavericks rather than on the more orthodox Ultramarines, who ended up being represented by Learchus, a character who at best was an acquaintance rather than a friend to our heros. Hell in the last two books he's written he hasn't even bothered with the chapter, just our two heros.

That said, they really do have a nice paint scheme.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Underground Heretic I thought there was some other chapters that were out and about as well as the smurfs during the heresy? Another thing that pisses me off about them is the fact that they've completely fucked over fluff to allow them to seem better. "rainbow warriors? who are they"Looks suspiciously around"and there's no such thing as a half eldar librarian be quiet".... What other army has had their entire back story ignored to such an extent? I don't mean how they screwed it with the chaos dex as it has the fluff in it, just not in a showable way.....


----------



## asianavatar

I think there is more hate for the Ultramarines now because what we consider cool has changed. If we take all the armies in the 40k world we can split them up into good guys and bad guys for the most part. 

Bad guys being Chaos, Necron, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids. There are always people who think bad guys are cool. They cause chaos, destroy things for fun. They represent the part of us that wishes we could do anything we want and get away with it.

On the other side are the good guys, Imperial Guard, Ultramarines (and all the chapters that are modeled after them), Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, Eldar, Daemonhunters, Witchhunters and Tau (not specifically good, but they fit better here). What makes all these armies different than the Ultramarines is that for the most part they have a flaw or something in their fluff that makes them interesting. Blood Angels have that uncontrollable rage, Dark Angels have their secrets, IG are just normal humans fighting a battle they probably shouldn't be, the Inquisition armies have mysterious secrets and are fanatical. However, the Ultramarines have none of that, they are the perfect army, have no negatives, they don't even rule with an ironfist like most SM armies, the planets they rule are "heaven" the inhabitants love them. They are the boy scouts of the universe, and thus are really one sided and boring.

This image was great in the 70's and 80's. The boyscout hero was loved, they were perfect in every way and always won. But somewhere along the line, our views changed, we got bored of the boyscout and wanted something more. The new heroes were more grey they were not perfect, instead of Superman it was Batman and Spawn, instead of Hulk Hogan it was Stone Cold and the Rock. All good guys so to speak, but had an edge to them, definitely was not the boy scout image. Besides GW I don't think any other entertainment company that caters to older people has a perfect boyscout as their main character image.

This is the problem with Ultramarines, they are stuck in that old time. They have nothing that gives them an edge to their character. It doesn't help that GW still tries to shove them everywhere and use them as their poster boys. Give them a little more edge, make them less one dimensional, make them darker. At least even if you want to keep them as the white light in the universe of darkness, show it as a desperate losing struggle not as a triumphant force that sweeps through with no trouble. Maybe than there will be more interest in them.


----------



## Lord of Rebirth

I find them rather boring and the blue is not bad in itself but when I see it a lot or see a lot of it together it's kinda annoying and I LOVE apocalypse so I probably couldn't handle playing with smurfs if I could even get through painting a 2000 point force of them. Oh yeah they could be a lot worse I know but they just kinda show boat it without really good reason. I mean of the 18 Legions they are not my least favorite but they are kinda low on the list.

I think a lot of people hate them cause they get new codex more often than anyone and they get the most love form GW with fluff, models and displays. Sure the Vanilla SM codex is not just about them but the last edition one that I have had smurfs in almost all the pictures. I haven't looked at it in a while but I think the only non-smurf pics are the one page of gallery models though there are some smurfs and the Chapter variants pages.


----------



## Steel Rain

I don't hate Ultramarines. A well painted Ultramarine army is one of the most visually pleasing armies on the board. But the poorly painted (or not painted at all) Ultramarines armies make up a super majority of the UM population. It makes me sad because the Chapter has a fantastic history. They really do. They are not as uniform as casual observers think. Look at their fanatical hatred for 'nids. I understand why GW holds them up as the standard army, but I don't like what happens when people just choose the standard army. I guess I hate UM players, not the UM chapter.


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## Syko515

i would have to second that. playing ultramarine's simply because their there is not a reason to play them. you need a certain passion as with all the 40k armies to be using their lists.


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## Cato Sicarius

Wusword77 said:


> pwnt how? I never said I didn't like the UM's just that I didn't want to see them on every page of the codex.
> 
> I also said they should write up the codex LIKE it is the Codex Astartes, meaning just detailing what the units are and when they should be deployed. Adding in characters and fluff is what makes it a rule book for a game. They should detail histories for many chapters and not just focus on the UMs
> 
> Finally I think the ultra marines generate a lot of fanboy players and i think thats why people don't like them :biggrin:


I know - I was just in a very egotistical mood that day. And what you said made no sense. It should just detail what the units are and how they're deployed, like the Codex Astartes, and yet it should contain background material? You're really not being very clear.

@ Revelations: What about the Rainbow Warriors? That's the stupidest name ever.

@ The Sullen One: Nice James Bond reference, but it's not the case unfortunately. And also, the fact that they have no character makes them different from anybody else, and so gives them character.

@ Steel Rain: That makes no sense. You don't like the players, but you do like the Chapter? If you like the Chapter then play with the Chapter. But that would mean you hate yourself wouldn't it?


----------



## Vanchet

I dislike the way that where ppl talk about the Battle of Macgragge so much (and not just because of the Starter box then) and I hated how other important histories and more important then just one fight (like Lorgar leading the marines against Snabadon's black crusades and The third battle of Armageddon).


----------



## Vaz

Who's Lorgar when it's at home?


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## Steel Rain

It makes perfect sense, Cato. The vast majority of UM players chose to play UM because it was the base army. A chapter with such a long and glorious history like the Ultramarines gets a bad rap because of so many bland armies. 2 tac squads w/ missile launchers and flamers, a land speeder, and dreadnaught is the army list equivalent of dry toast. 
And I don't play Marines (power armor is a crutch!), but I respect a well painted and played Marine army. It's the passion behind the army that I love. If UM players put the effort into building a nice looking Marine army, it's hard to fault them.


----------



## Vanchet

Vaz said:


> Who's Lorgar when it's at home?


Sorry i meant Logan grimmar ^^;;;;


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## Vaz

=D Haha, I guess you meant that in the end.

I agree though. Logan's getting a bit in your face now - needs a bit of a change, and I hope that Ragnar plays a more prominent part in the Space Wolves now.


----------



## Revelations

Cato Sicarius said:


> @ Revelations: What about the Rainbow Warriors? That's the stupidest name ever.


When someone says that I get the image of a Warrior guarding the rainbow bridge that leads to Valhalla... which is inherently more badass than an overgrown smurf.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

Steel Rain said:


> It makes perfect sense, Cato. The vast majority of UM players chose to play UM because it was the base army. A chapter with such a long and glorious history like the Ultramarines gets a bad rap because of so many bland armies. 2 tac squads w/ missile launchers and flamers, a land speeder, and dreadnaught is the army list equivalent of dry toast.
> And I don't play Marines (power armor is a crutch!), but I respect a well painted and played Marine army. It's the passion behind the army that I love. If UM players put the effort into building a nice looking Marine army, it's hard to fault them.


Ah, well I see your point now.

@ Revelations: Around where I live most people would say "You blatantly just made that up." However because it's across the internet and would most likely start a flame war then I will refrain from saying that. Instead I will say the following: Where on earth did you hear that there is a rainbow leading to Valhalla?

And by the way, Smurfs are bigger than models.:biggrin:


----------



## Pirate Metal Troy

I don't hate the ultras really, and any army can be boring if you let it be. Necrons are a good example. lord, res orb, lots of warriors, monolith or 2....some immortals...wooo.

If GW would stop playing favorites then sure some armies would get a much needed update. But people will complain no matter what.

If you give someone millions of dollars, a huge mansion, and all the money, free time and sex that one person can handle, they'll complain that they don't have 2 mansions. So even if everyone's happy, no one's happy.

ALl i hope is that when i finish building my armies that GW doesn't completely kill my codex so that I can't play my list anymore. That's a LOT of wasted time and effort, and really the only reason i can see for any form of anger.

So, back to the point. People hate the ultra-smurfs because they can.


----------



## Revelations

Cato Sicarius said:


> @ Revelations: Around where I live most people would say "You blatantly just made that up." However because it's across the internet and would most likely start a flame war then I will refrain from saying that. Instead I will say the following: Where on earth did you hear that there is a rainbow leading to Valhalla?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifrost_Bridge Ok, technically leading to Asgard, but that's basically Valhalla... always happy to enlighten. 


Cato Sicarius said:


> @ And by the way, Smurfs are bigger than models.:biggrin:


Touche...


----------



## XV8crisis

I used to collect Ultrasmurfs way back in 3rd edition. Back then they were just another Space Marine chapter, no different from any other. But now they get all of the new models and everything! No other chapter has a model for their chapter master.

Of course I don't like marines now. They kick assbut that's just it. They're too good. That's why every person who starts collecting nowadays goes for marines. 
In fact a survey proved that the amount of marine players is higher than the rest of the people who play different armies added together.

I don't know about anyone else but I reckon they should at least reduce the Assault marine save to 4+ because marines weigh tons and it's gotta be hard for that little jumppack to launch them around like that.


----------



## Vaz

*Cough* Cantor *Cough* Logan Grimnar *Cough* Dante *Cough* Azrael *Cough*.

XV8 - Marines are shocking now. They don't kick arse - too esxpensive, and not enough heavy firepower. In the past, you could easily field 18+ Heavy Bolters in a 1500 army, but nowadays, you're lucky to field even 5. 

And why would putting an extra weight (which is offset by Fibro-muscle bundles and servo's, not to mention and enhanced skeleton, and 50+ years of fighting with one on) reduce an armour save. If anything, it'll increase the Armour save - there's more stuff to bounce off.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

Revelations said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifrost_Bridge Ok, technically leading to Asgard, but that's basically Valhalla... always happy to enlighten.


Thanking you for the enlightenment.

Oh and Vaz, why have Heavy Bolters when you can have Missile Launchers for the same price?


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## darkdragon24

i dont like UM myself. it may be because my worst ever defeat was at the hands of my cousins,but that could be me. also, they are all i ever fight. where i live,it's hard enough to find warhammer 40k players,and wen u do they all collect UM. y? because thats wot they're told to collect by GW staff.....


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## Vaz

Cato Sicarius said:


> Thanking you for the enlightenment.
> 
> Oh and Vaz, why have Heavy Bolters when you can have Missile Launchers for the same price?


Could be Lascannons for all I care - you could field squads of 5 with a heavy and special weapon, but because some dick head on a previous campaign died, you aren't allowed another heavy weapon until you get a replacement from the Fortress Monastery.


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## Son of mortarion

Vaz said:


> Could be Lascannons for all I care - you could field squads of 5 with a heavy and special weapon, but because some dick head on a previous campaign died, you aren't allowed another heavy weapon until you get a replacement from the Fortress Monastery.


do you really think that that is why you need ten men. it was because people were doing the worst excesses of unsportsmanlike powergaming: the five- man lasplas squad.
what you are complaining about is that he game designers eliminated an exploit. they have been trying to restore balance to the game, something that was lacking since 3e.

why hate the ultras for that, they certainly are not why the problem was there in the first place?
:laugh:if you need more heavy weapons to win, play ig.:laugh:


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## Vaz

I'm not complaining (well, in a roundabout way I am), but the point I'm making (to XV8 Crisis) is that Marines no longer kick arse like they used to in 3rd, and to a slightly lesser (in my view) extent in 4th.

However, this isn't because of the army list changes, but because of opponents tooling up (at a much lower cost) to defeat Marines.

Marines on the other hand are forced to field several useless Marines, when they have access to the best weaponry in the Imperium. 

If the lasplas squads were so broken, how come Marines were still beatable?

In the past, you could field 6 5 man tacticals with a Heavy Weapon, 3 Devestator squads with upgraded equipment easily. Now, you can't.

Myself, I'm content to play my army how I like, the way I like. I'm not going to bullshit you, and say I only play for enjoyment - I don't. I play the game, because of the balance I had - I had some good victories, and some good losses, but never did I ever have outright wins/losses, which is what it's turning into these days, and I'm happy that Fantasy is becoming more attractive to me.

But if I've got my army that does reasonably well (40% W/L), I'm content - which it does. So I'm sorry if I can't take a win against all comers list like Orks - (4 mobs of 30 boys with power claws and big shootas), and expect to have a chance at winning, but it's good that Marines now have the opportuning to get the thrashing that's been comingto them for a good while.

But the thrashing has gone on too long - Ork Marine Killing armies, Eldar Marine Killing Armies are far too common now - but infortunately, Marines can't counter that, due to fucked up equipment options.

In my army, I can happily blow holes in Orks with 3 Vindicators, and even more so against Eldar, but it won't always win me the game, because there will always be some Chaos General with 2 Deamon Princes, which are good against pretty much everything.


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## ACoz

It's all just sour grapes, really.

Hell, I remember when the Codex for Codex Chapters was officially "Codex: Ultramarines".

That said, yes, there are loads of other armies that could use an update or two, but the company should probably keep doing the whole "These are what's in the starter box, so we should make more stuff for them" mentality.

With that in mind, I don't think it'd be the same game if the starter box had IG vs. Eldar in it.

Familiarity breeds contempt and all that.

Two more things: "Ultramarine" is an actual, official shade of blue, not necessarily GW calling them "Super-marines!".

And saying that Valhalla and Asgard are the same is kind of like saying New York City is the same thing as America.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Vaz said:


> I'm not complaining (well, in a roundabout way I am), but the point I'm making (to XV8 Crisis) is that Marines no longer kick arse like they used to in 3rd, and to a slightly lesser (in my view) extent in 4th.
> 
> However, this isn't because of the army list changes, but because of opponents tooling up (at a much lower cost) to defeat Marines.
> 
> Marines on the other hand are forced to field several useless Marines, when they have access to the best weaponry in the Imperium.


useless? how? the marine has a weapon that can shoot 24 inches, has s4, decent ap, and you call that useless.


----------



## The Son of Horus

I have the urge to revive this topic. I was just reading my copy of Codex: Space Marines, and read the page under the heading "Codex Chapters." It says, in so many words, that the Ultramarines are the definitive Space Marines, and everyone else is either crap or are trying to be just like the Ultramarines. It's like saying, "Our army is better than yours can ever, or will ever be, and there's nothing you can do about it because you aren't Ultramarines." It was fine when the Ultramarines were just another Chapter, and they were sort of the poster boys. But to go full out and say everyone sucks in comparison just invites my ire. They specifically point out the Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves as being weak in comparison due to their faliure to follow the Codex for whatever reason.


----------



## Cole Deschain

Amen to that. Screw that noise.


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## Vaz

Son of mortarion said:


> useless? how? the marine has a weapon that can shoot 24 inches, has s4, decent ap, and you call that useless.


Useless in the sense that firing a Lascannon at its intended targets will result in no effect on the Tank from the 8/9 other Marines it's with.

Why waste 80 points just so you can purchase a 10pt heavy Weapon, and leave those 80 points wasted when it's targetting tanks, or waste 10 points when they're firing at squads?

There's no sense in that.

Tactical Marines are tactical, as in they can change to form whatever task is required. They can't.

It's slightly offset with the Combat Squad ruling, but if I wanted to field a 5 man squad with a Special Weapon, and a 5 man squad with a special weapon, I would do.


----------



## ACoz

XV8crisis said:


> No other chapter has a model for their chapter master.


Dante = Blood Angels
Azrael = Dark Angels
Logan Grimnar = Space Wolves
Helbrecht = Black Templars
Pedro = Crimson Fists

Now, back on topic, I see a whole, whole lot more Chaos armies than I do Ultras or Codex chapters.

Maybe it has, in part, to do with 'New Codex Syndrome'? Unfortunately, it's the Codex Marines that get the most frequent updates/new codices.


----------



## wombat_tree

They hog all the limelight, have a laughable paint scheme (seriously red and blue are the worst is the worst two colous choices to be put together) , they belong to the imperium (accutaly thats just why i hate them I personaly hate all imperialists) ect ect


----------



## Initiate

Marneus Calgar said:


> I still reckon it's Jealousy, cause we are the GW poster boys


Definitely not for me. I could not care less that so many people play it (in my area barely anyone does, the store doesn't even paint the SMurfs, they use CF's instead), I also do not even slightly dislike people just because they play the army. I am just absolutely, vomit in my mouth, _*sick*_ of those blue robots everywhere.

It makes me feel like they are this army of evil, brainwashed space marines, bent on the destruction of every nonhuman being (except themselves). Quite like Hitler. To me they are a genocide against originality. But that is only how GW shows them. If I see someone coming up, playing the eighth Ultramarines company, with a converted captain and detailing and freestyle and conversion work, I'd be glad to congratulate him on his marvelous army and offer to play him. When an eight year old (I detest it when people say 12 year old's act like this, because they don't, I would know ) comes up and asks me to play, I glance at his army, and they are dipped in blue and have Sicarius, Marneus Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius, Chronus and Telion, similarly dipped in paint, lined up on the table. I ask the kid why he painted (I'm never mean to kids at the GW no matter what, after all, his mom might be nearby) his models blue and he says so that he could field the special characters. I say he could do it with any army and he says, "Well then it wouldn't be fluffy would it?" 

I feel this way with any army, it doesn't matter whether it is Dark Angels (I've had something similar happen with a kid playing DA), Blood Angels, Goffs, or Ultramarines. As long as it is played/collected with style, I'm fine with it.


----------



## Jack the Epic

For me, its that its mainly cause they are every where. GW kind of shoves them at you, and they've kind of got a bit boring and unoriginal. Sure, the paint scheme is pretty cool (though there are many better), but because im so used to seeing them, im kind of sick of it.


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## drivebybaptism

Jack the Epic said:


> For me, its that its mainly cause they are every where. GW kind of shoves them at you, and they've kind of got a bit boring and unoriginal. Sure, the paint scheme is pretty cool (though there are many better), but because im so used to seeing them, im kind of sick of it.


I agree with that. Also not all of the chapters follow the Codex (give me a hell yeah for my dark angels!).

Personally I'm not sure if it because they got some school boy in who messed up "Enter 2000 for the amount of Ultramarine Blue to be made, no that was 200,000. Its ok, I have an idea!".


----------



## Blue Liger

All the SM players I know got bored and got rid of thiers as they want tp lay more challenging armies, the Sm don't provide a challenge and tactical play in my opinion as they are to all rounded.


----------



## The Son of Horus

Blue Liger said:


> All the SM players I know got bored and got rid of thiers as they want tp lay more challenging armies, the Sm don't provide a challenge and tactical play in my opinion as they are to all rounded.


A valid argument. The fact that they're well-rounded comes at a price of numbers and specialization, though. It's a question of preference-- some people like having explicit tasks for individual units on the table, while others (I fit into this category) like being able to take a given unit and have it adapt to a developing situation. I gauge my tactics based on how well I'm able to react to my opponent, rather than how well I'm able to meet the specialized roles of specific units. Both are equally valid approaches, I think.


----------



## Tau_Empire_Rising

I absolutely detest the Ultramarines. not because they are GW's posterboys (after all, somebody has to be spotlighted for promoting the game, and to me it doesnt matter which chapter), but they get too much attention, with the updates ahead of other armies that severly need it, and the list of special characters longer than the chapter's army list. 

i just think that GW should spread their attention more evenly throughout the chapters to better maintain their current customer base and keep everyone happy. then they would get more deversity amongst armies played and sell more product. Yeah, keep the demo games and starters UM to stay consistent, but dont go so heavy with the chapter specific units.


----------



## chrisman 007

Well, it's just the smurfs are just so.....ordinary. They're the set everyone starts off with, and they become the sort of avatar of newbiness. It's like a Mini: You wouldn't buy a Mini if you wanted to show off when your 29. You'd buy....errr.....something else.


----------



## drivebybaptism

Minis are awsom!

Smurfs are not. GW do need to update every other army first before they even touch the SM again. I mean the Necrons are in dire need of an over haul.


----------



## Templar97

The reason I dislike them is purely fluff related, in that they were not at the siege of terra when they were needed the most and then when the battle on terra was over and cleaned up Guilliman presumes to declare himself lord of the imperial armies, and then tells the other legions if you don't break into chapters you are traitors. Yes I play Black Templars and they are indeed sons of Dorn, who by the way was at the siege of terra, followed the Emperor onto Horus's battle barge and also carried the Emperor back to terra, and whats more he held the planet together untill Guilliman showed up and put his nose in the mix. 

I apologize for the rant, but I have had this dislike bottled up for a while and thought I should put out the facts and a little of my frustration. Thank you


----------



## Catachan55th

For me its the sameyness of them.
When I started 40k, years ago, every nooby wanted to play marines because they were the easiest to use and they all had to be Ultramarines because they fetured the most in GW publications and the paint scheme was relativly easy to copy... 
all this made them very boring in my mind and so it stuck, I think most players want to do something with a bit of individual charecter, something not everyone else does.

I have painted Ultramarines before, but realy only while working for GW as part of my job, I even had to paint a tacticle squad with Rhino for the entire Chapter featured in the old codex and that used to be displayed at head office.


----------



## Arcane

IMO it is simply because you walk into a new club and you can expect to be playing against 75% Space Marines, and 75% of those are going to be Ultra Marines (probably un-painted, or black primered with blobs of blue here and there). 

It's like turning on the TV and knowing you are going to see some crappy ass FOX-esque show on every other channel.

That and the fact that they are the first damn thing that GW updates with the new edition and their codex is about 4 times as thick as anyone elses.


----------



## khorneflake

threadomancy much?

also, the ultramarines get all the fucking dex updates, 20 billion SC's and "take the piss" out of all the chapters


----------



## Siege

I don't really get how all the Raven Guard and Salamanders players are crying over Ultramarines being updated too often? You guys all use the same codex.

Anyway, I kinda think GW has noticed that people are getting sick of the Ultras and they are trying to make them more interesting with the whole Ultramar being cut off from the Imperium and all that. The fall of the Ultramarines would be an absolutely fucking epic tale, and I think both Ultras fans and critics would really enjoy something like that happening.

I mean if the Imperium really is on it's last legs, what better way to represent that then having it's favourite sons suffer a massive loss from which they will never truly recover. 

They would still be GW poster boys, but now they will be the struggling against all odds and barely surviving in a new, even darker age kind, rather than the sit on top of a mighty high horse, we are so perfect and mighty, laughing and pointing at all the other weaker chapters kind.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

The fact that they are ordinary makes them the different to other Chapters people. No other Chapter is like that.

Yes, they have most of the Codex under their control. But, and it's a big but, that's not the fault of the Ultramarines. If the Codex was mainly under the control of the Genesis Chapter, you would be crying out about that. STOP bringing the Codex into this people, you're just whinging because your Chapter didn't get a bigger role. And why should they? The Ultramarines are the ones that stick to the Codex most vigorously, so that logically says that they should get the biggest part in that book. If you stuck the Raven Guard in there too much, then that would mean that the rest of the book would contradict it. The Raven Guard don't follow the Codex to the letter, so when it comes to army lists, everybody would be confused as to why Bikes are an option.

In response to Siege, I would like to add to his comment and say that the Ultras *are* getting killed off. The whole of the Ork Empire of Charadon, the largest Ork Empire in the Galaxy, is attacking them, wanting to "set the worlds of Ultramar ablaze" (which would be pretty hard considering one of them is an ocean world). They're still being attacked by the splinter of Hive Fleet Behemoth, and other armies are still wanting help from them against other Tyranid threats, seeing as how they have the most practice against the Tyranids. Add all this up along with what Siege said, and you soon realise that the Ultramarines are going down, big time.

So stop complaining already.


----------



## Col. Schafer

I dont hate the ultras, I just like to make fun of them because I like to make fun* of things in general and people dont get mad at me when I make fun of them. If I made fun of the BAs they would go superfluff ponage on me, but If I make fun of the ultramarines everyone ignores me and I get to sit quietly and smile as a rock back and forth in the corner. :crazy:

bty: Y'know why the Btemplars arent the fanboys? Because they are emo-magnets.


----------



## slaaneshy

All loyalist marines are scum....especially the ultramarines!


----------



## Tim/Steve

Ultramarines are the ENEMY... you either collect them or dont, either way you sure as hell end up fighting them way too often.

Personally I just find nilla marines tactics really boring- I dont find that bolter lines work. But then I play funny- I have super combat SW and shooty Nids... since my nids can outshoot almost everything in the SM codex and its very rare that Ultra's take combat armies it gets quite dull playing them- roll up with some screaming Zoanthropes firing AP3 blasts and the game is already over.


----------



## Blue Liger

I never get the concept of nilla amrines sure they are the main dex but you can field such a variety of them they aren't really that flavourless. Really they have SC like evry other chapter that has it's own dex and they have certain rules now applied by those characters to thier own chapter, it's just not taking up 5 pages of writing and fluff to explain it is all. I mean with the standard codex you can actually now field an entire scout based army.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Ultra's are like Marmite! You either love them or hate them!

I personally hate them! they are the personification of vanilla/Boredom!

Even there primarch was a hack! (And a usurper of Power, When Dorn was the rightful next-in-line so to speak to rule in the Emperors stead)

the way GW portrays them is also very annoying. Ultramarines win against all odds win. Pffft!


----------



## jpunk

Well, me and my ultras are on the defensive again then... (and seeing as our gun lines have been nerfed since the last time I played, that's one defence outta the window straight away)

I got back into GW a few months back, and having had all my old stuff thrown out or swapped for beer tokens (and occasionally beer itself) and instantly chosen ultra's, I'll explain my reasons.

1) Me and my mate needed a copy of AoBR, he already plays orcs, that left me with marines. I used to field Blood Angels back in the day, and still have a soft spot for them. So what made me do ultra's? To be honest, the colour scheme. Not the blue and gold, but the blue and white. Looks clean and cool. I decided against BA mainly because I think it's a little silly to run around a battlefield in bright red costumes. American war of independence anybody? (I know the Ultra's are traditionally bright blue, but mine aren't. They're a very dark blue, FYI, so ner  )
2) They are the most versatile army in the codex, most of the others have a theme and a playing style around which you base your army, Blood Angels = CC etc, which I didn't want, one game I may want to be able to tailor my marines to be an all out CC army, the next I want to be able to stand on my baseline and pour blast markers on my enemy, or some mix of the two. The best chapter to do this is the ultra's. Hell, they literally wrote the book on warfare.

But tbh, I'm bored of them already. I'm almost speed-painting them as I just want a playable army. I'm gonna collect to 2000, maybe 2500, then switch to Guard. Whilst I'm doing that I want to do some converting, so I'm going to go to the most obvious place to do some conversions, Chaos (always fancied a pus-dripping nurgle army, or a tentacley* Tzeentch host). 

Bugger. That didn't go as planned. I didn't convert anyone to loving the UM's did I? 



*There is no way to spell this without it looking wrong, which is appropriate I think.


----------



## Captain Stillios

One there are SO MANY OF THE GUYS!!!!!
Two if you elongate the head they look like smurfs.
Three they think they are the best at every thing when there not !
Blood angels:victory: are better at assault, salamanders are better guarilla fighters white scars are more maunouverable,iron hands have better fire power and Calgar is an idiot. :alcoholic::taunt::headbutt:
Need I say more?


----------



## Blue Liger

I have to admit sometimes i swear they rig the WD mag battle reports to go the way of the SMU's


----------



## Abomination

As with anything that is popular, it gets too popular. I personally love the UltraMarines but I understand why they get alot of flak. Don't think its justified though.


----------



## Sebi

The Son of Horus said:


> [..] why people actually really do hate the Ultramarines?


I don't hate them... I just let my boyz have some for breakfast


----------



## Haekmo

Ultra's are to by the book.....

Chicks dig Bad boys n skars ;P .......who would wana be a goodie two shoes ultra marine, only chiks u'd get are SOB, and they all look the same?????????

well they'd gets skars LOL


----------



## Dafistofmork

i hate goffs for the smae reason-they are the "standard". and this is your hobby, which you want to be unique. a unique army can not also be the "standard". it is one or the other, and since most players have an imagination, they use it to beat the "standard". this explodes outwards as a hatred of smurfs.

also, everyone else hates them, and mankind follows the crowd quite a bit-lone wolfs are the exception, not the rule.


----------



## baroniveagh

I'm just tired of seeing them. EVERYWHERE. For a chapter of a thousand battle brothers, I've seen enough of them that they outnumber the tyranids.


----------



## General. Gray Wolf

I dont hate Ultramarines! I can understand the points people make about hating them such as every one has them, they're for children, their the poster boys etc but I dont really mind them. I dont like them but I dont hate them either. Although, I think alot of people actual dont have anything against them but just see the people with actual reasons not to like them and copy them to be cool or somthing.


----------



## Skull Harvester

Everything in life has something that someone makes it cool to hate. Generally, its the most mainstream thing in whatever it is, Ultramarines being the aforementioned thing. I don't mind them, they seem a bit bland to me, but I don't mind them. They just need to hate something, and UM hate just stuck I guess. I like some of the SM models, and I like a lot of the SW and BA models. Just personal preference I guess, in an old class I had we had a lot of people hate on Terrans in Starcraft just because they're the humans. Apparently humans aren't plausible in the future.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

I posted this in a different thread, so I'll just copypasta it:



The Real Sanguinius said:


> In terms of person B, well, I dunno how old you all are, but, I recommend not playing against 12 year olds.
> 
> I know that this is a vast majority of 40k players (mostly those playing as Ultrasmurfs - the players with no imagination), but those without prepubescent levels of maturity are still quite plentiful, I'm sure.


Mind explaining why us "Ultrasmurf" (an OH SO ORIGINAL NAME) players have no imagination?

As far as I can see the only basis for this accusation is that we play a Chapter set down by GW, but you (as far as I can logically tell) play Blood Angels which would mean you have no imagination. Practically no one (or a rare few) has imagination in this game judging from your logic. I have seen 2 DIY Space Marine players in 3 years of playing the game. And one of those was literally a 12 year old's.


In addition to the blandness thing going on in this thread, um, Goffs, Black Legion, T'au Sept, Cadian 8th, Craftworld Ulthwé, Hive Fleet Leviathan, and any-and-all Necrons, much?


----------



## Jdwoogie

N0rdicNinja said:


> The similarities are astounding!


Alright stop... collaborate and listen.....

woog out!

p.s i can continue if anyone would like.... without looking up the lyrics mind you....


----------



## Shadowfire

Full Pschyoanalytical response

Ultramarines were initially introduced as the epitomy of how marines should be, little back story, emperor-loving goody twoshoes. With not a lot written about them they became a bland, conformist option.
As other chapters were developed they were made 'special', given back stories to explain why they differed, tweaked to stand out, given good reason not to conform.
More depth, a darker side, better rules, ability to do things the conformist Ultramarines couldn't aswell as everything they could.
Over the years the Space Marine Codex would be released, and then more attractive add on Codex for the 'better' Chapters

Mud sticks though, and so has the 'boring' image of the Ultramarines. 
But to go any further in this we'd have to look at psycho-analysing society as to why people don't want to be seen to be as conformist, and I think that topic is for another forum.

-and big ROFL to post above-

-and big rofl to post above-
It has only been recently that this has been addressed by giving Codex Chapters rules and benefit for sticking to a conformist style of marine Chapter, in effect making them non-conformist...


----------



## Shadowfire

...Ultra is back with a Codex invention,
killing scum if they aint quick and nimble,
cultisit go crazy when they hear a cymbal
and a tech priest with a souped up tempo
I'm a Chaplain
time to go solo
rollin,
in my Rh-ii-no
bolter with a gauge
so my ammo dont go
Ripping cultists a new a-hole


...better stop there, apologies


----------



## Vanchet

I dpon't hate them for the models as to them being the Iconic Chapter and thearmy always seen by beginners


----------



## Col. Schafer

Big element of everyone hates em so its easy, a bit like social drinking... :shok: wow that makes me scared for my future health. But also a bit of hate for their fluff, theyre just too perfect. The reason I play guard is because its so fun to make fun of guard for being cannonfodder, and to some extent every other race is like that. Orks kill eachother after running out of enemies, chaos dies to its own botched magic, eldar die because they are space elves(that joke is part irony given the cover saves the bastards get), tau die when you shake a stick at them, chrons die, and then evaporate when you kill half of them (and I can forgive the chrons their WBB ness because its so funey) But the ultramarines dont die, EVER!!! Their too perfect for 40K, and they are the "good guys" and this is not a good guy game. (yes I exagerate by saying they dont die ever, but you get my point)

And there used to be an element of waa, they get all the updates, but now that would just be the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## hungryugolino

1) GW overdoes the love.
2)They're usually ugly as hell. A bit darker, and they look presentable.
3)5th edition codex fluff
Smurf Honour Guard > 1 company other marines? lolno


----------



## countchocula86

I think a part of it is that Ultramarines are the "least" creative army one can play in 40K. (Obviously players can customize them and make them unique, but at their base they are not creative at all). Most of the SM units you see in the store are painted up Ultramarine. The standard SM codex focuses almost exclusively on the Ultramarines. And they are just the universal goody two-shoes.


----------



## bitsandkits

who dug up this fossil, this threads knocking on 2 years old ?


----------



## Cyklown

There's been a lot of NPN Syndrome (new players necroing) going around today. I've avoided saying anything on the grounds that they mean well, the forum was fucking dead on it's own and lord knows I had to fight the impulse to do the same when I showed up. It's easy to remember for me. It was like, what, a week ago? two, maybe?


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Heresy Online
SPECIAL RULES;
Newbie Necroing: All threads gain the WBB special rule.


----------



## Cyklown

I wasn't a) a nub myself and b) low enough on sig room to have to delete what small amount of my adoptables that are still visible to squeeze that in there I'd sig it.

<3


----------



## Col. Schafer

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Heresy Online
> SPECIAL RULES;
> Newbie Necroing: All threads gain the WBB special rule.


:laugh: That makes it worth it, hands down.


----------



## toalewa850

It's not that I hate them, it's just they aren't that cool.


----------



## darklove

UMs are not cool because they, and Orks, are the army that every 8 year old playes. 8 year olds are not cool. I do tend to think less of someone if I find out they collect UMs - they lack character and imagination.


----------



## dthwish09

people hate ultramarines because they are the most popular space marine chapter and space marine codex's get updated more frequently so people hate space marines


----------



## Tbirch

That's just silly.. 

But then again, I hate people who repeatedly misspell villain as villian.

And people from Jersey Shore, yo. Well, not the people who live there, just those idiots making reality show. I feel pity to the people who have to deal with them instead.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

The Ultramarines are the fat, smelly kid at school that the teachers constantly push you to play with. The few times I set foot in a GW store the employees immediately recommend all the new SM crap to me. It's really frustrating having GW shove SMs down your throat every opportunity they get. And what boring, do-gooder, ass kissing chapter is featured on all the SM box sets? Ultramarines! Having a higher proportion of young players does not help my oppinion of them either (that's not to say I haven't met some great Ultramarine players). They just represent the pinnacle of Spess Mahreen-ness IMO.

That's why I despise the sons of Roboute Guilliman. I have seen some well painted Ultramarine armies though.

EDIT: wow this thread is old...


----------



## LukeValantine

Human beings need a reason to hate something? Last time I checked people hate almost everything for reasons ranging from I don't like the way it looks/smells/feels to just not liking things for reasons as absurd as I once had a dream where X did Y. In other words I doubt much will be gained from asking any question like Why do you hate X.


----------



## Tel Asra Nejoar

i dont hate the smurfs, i have "issues" with marines in general, though that comes from being a sisters player(its our job to clean your mess). im not too keen on most of the UM stuff, except 4th. company, i bought some marines to paint as 4th. as i like their fluff, it breaks away from the usual "codex astartes is all" mentality, and they got to chill with more members of the inquisition than just about anyone else, without torture


----------



## chrisman 007

They're the n00b army that all the beginners play, that's why.


----------



## Baron Spikey

The way these arguments are being presented as the UM player lacking character and imagination is just bullsh*t! The same argument could be made (far more validly in my eyes) for anyone who plays Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Dark Angels, armies I see far more regularly than Ultramarines- in the 10 years I've been in this hobby I've seen precisely *1 *Ultramarines force and that was the AoBR set painted up by the staff at GW Stoke for the display case.


----------



## Col. Schafer

^^^ I'm not saying they lack character, I'm saying that 40K does not need a good guy, nor will it ever so long as its tagline and intro remain the same.

(I forgive the tau because they are A)darker than they look, B) will kill my tanks with railguns if I insult them, and C) no one cares because they are going to get eaten by the nids anyway)


----------



## pathwinder14

TheUnmarked said:


> Actually I think that it has to do with how popular it is to hate the ultramarine's, in an attempt to be different many people copy others who also be different to the establishment or mom and dad figure (GW) and therefore rebel by hating that which represents it. A bit like Emo kids actually or anyone acting up to be 'Unique and individual' which in reality is just copying someone other than their parents or the established authority.
> The short of it has to be that humans just aren't all that original.


Agreed. 

My wife and I were discussing "being different". We found that we were "different". However "being different" can stem from 1 of 2 places. 

1. You are different as intent (follower):
You aim to be different and cling to any group that rebels against the norm. That group then has it's own "accepted norms" that the people within cling to. In an effort to reject what is held as normal they instead conform to a new set of norms.

2. You are different as a result (Individual):
You question everything. You evaluate all things that society places upon you and as a result find some things lacking. You therefore look for other things that appeal to you and enjoy them regardless if it makes you different or not. What you get is a person that shares some of society's norms and rejects others for something different.

GW as a parent figure to the hobby (society figurehead that sets norms) would probably prefer that everyone plays at least 2 armies; Ultramarines and something else. Some people want to be different and choose anything other than Ultramarines. Other people play whatever army fits their personality be it a power gamer, fluff gamer, painter gamer, etc. and are different because of their choice.

What it all comes down to is: do you aim for your choice to make you different or are you different because of your choice?


----------



## Sethis

pathwinder14 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> My wife and I were discussing "being different". We found that we were "different". However "being different" can stem from 1 of 2 places.
> 
> 1. You are different as intent (follower):
> You aim to be different and cling to any group that rebels against the norm. That group then has it's own "accepted norms" that the people within cling to. In an effort to reject what is held as normal they instead conform to a new set of norms.
> 
> 2. You are different as a result (Individual):
> You question everything. You evaluate all things that society places upon you and as a result find some things lacking. You therefore look for other things that appeal to you and enjoy them regardless if it makes you different or not. What you get is a person that shares some of society's norms and rejects others for something different.


Congratulations, you just summarised a term's worth of my sociology A-level! :laugh:

The problem is that human beings as a species are social animals. Yes, some people desire solitude, but if you put them in solitary for a month they'd go crazy.

The same is true in less extreme circumstances, while a lot of people want to be "different" they don't want to start eating the wallpaper, because it influences the liklihood of them having social relationships. It also doesn't taste very nice.

It's the reason Emo kids are emo. If they wanted to be truly different, they'd dye their hair neon orange, habitually listen to classical music and take up breakdancing. It's much more easy to be "different" by "being the same as a smaller subset of society" than it is to be "totally unique".

Option 1 and 2 have no inherent merit, though your use of language implies otherwise. It's simply a way of labelling how much social contact an individual requires. :good:


----------



## Cato Sicarius

darklove said:


> UMs are not cool because they, and Orks, are the army that every 8 year old playes. 8 year olds are not cool. I do tend to think less of someone if I find out they collect UMs - they lack character and imagination.


'Round these parts 8 year old's aren't allowed to play.


----------



## pathwinder14

Sethis said:


> Congratulations, you just summarised a term's worth of my sociology A-level! :laugh:


Thanks. I take that as a compliment. 



Sethis said:


> The problem is that human beings as a species are social animals. Yes, some people desire solitude, but if you put them in solitary for a month they'd go crazy.


Prolly true.



Sethis said:


> The same is true in less extreme circumstances, while a lot of people want to be "different" they don't want to start eating the wallpaper, because it influences the liklihood of them having social relationships. It also doesn't taste very nice.
> 
> It's the reason Emo kids are emo. If they wanted to be truly different, they'd dye their hair neon orange, habitually listen to classical music and take up breakdancing. It's much more easy to be "different" by "being the same as a smaller subset of society" than it is to be "totally unique".


Agreed. 




Sethis said:


> Option 1 and 2 have no inherent merit, though your use of language implies otherwise.


What do you mean?



Sethis said:


> It's simply a way of labelling how much social contact an individual requires. :good:


Or how much a person wants to be associated with society.


----------



## Tbirch

Sethis said:


> It's the reason Emo kids are emo. If they wanted to be truly different, they'd dye their hair neon orange, habitually listen to classical music and take up breakdancing. It's much more easy to be "different" by "being the same as a smaller subset of society" than it is to be "totally unique".


I had a phase like that when I was 17. Though the hair was green, and instead of breakdancing I did krav maga.

And I wasnt emo. I was quite happy actually.


----------



## Khorothis

15 pages long anti-ultrasmurf thread - all's right with the world. :grin:


----------



## NoiseMarine

I remember the first time I went into a _Games-Workshop_... I was five and even I thought the Ultramarines were the cardboard of Warhammer 40k.


----------



## Sethis

pathwinder14 said:


> Thanks. I take that as a compliment.


It was intended as one, I tend to leave differences of opinion in seperate threads, which is why I might bash you over the head in one while inflating your ego with a bicycle pump in another! :biggrin:



pathwinder14 said:


> What do you mean?


I mean there is an inherent tendency (especially among the "geek" subculture, and I use the term very loosely) to view people who choose to belong to certain subcultures as lower-class life forms. There is also a tendency to label people *not* part of significant subcultures in the same way. An example would be the tendency to mock people who hang around in Myspace. Another example is Emo people. Yet another example is "mainstream" people. Your choice of words in your previous post exemplifies this attitude, presenting option 2 as the preferable choice of lifestyle, where you intellectually transcend the petty needs of "lesser" human beings and their need to be part of a socio-cultural home.

This is just another example of a cultural norm that is present in our very own subculture, a way of justifying our choice of social group and reaffirming our own values. The idea that someone is better than someone else simply because they choose one subculture over another is laughable as well as being empirically wrong, apart from when membership of a certain subculture leads to harm to other people (for example, street gangs).

Please don't construe that as an attack on you, it's simply an observation. I am just as guilty of labelling certain people as "lesser" as anyone else reading this, it's part of how we establish relationships and a part of our psyche; there is no ethical problem because "lesser" is a convenient term I have used to describe our perceptions of someone, not the subject themselves in any objective manner.

I am not making any criticisms or value-judgements of how anyone is viewing anyone else, I'm simply stating an observation I have made. I hope no-one will take it personally.



pathwinder14 said:


> Or how much a person wants to be associated with society.


Semantically speaking, there is no difference between the two. Someone will join a certain subculture based on their preferences regarding the amount and nature of social interactions present in that subculture. For example, to draw on a stereotype, someone who places low value on societal interactions may choose to become a stamp collecter. On the other hand (and to use another stereotype) someone who enjoys frequent social contact may join their local football team.

I'm sorry if that has degenerated into a sociological tangle using overly complex words. Ironically my Degree didn't really let me write essays about what I am truly interested in, so I tend to go on about it in other areas! :laugh:

The sentence in Green is the only part of this post that is even tangentially on topic, and summarises my views on the "Ultramarine debate" quite neatly.


----------



## pathwinder14

Sethis said:


> It was intended as one, I tend to leave differences of opinion in seperate threads, which is why I might bash you over the head in one while inflating your ego with a bicycle pump in another! :biggrin:


Nice. A lot of people do not do that.




Sethis said:


> I mean there is an inherent tendency (especially among the "geek" subculture, and I use the term very loosely) to view people who choose to belong to certain subcultures as lower-class life forms. There is also a tendency to label people *not* part of significant subcultures in the same way. An example would be the tendency to mock people who hang around in Myspace. Another example is Emo people. Yet another example is "mainstream" people. Your choice of words in your previous post exemplifies this attitude, presenting option 2 as the preferable choice of lifestyle, where you intellectually transcend the petty needs of "lesser" human beings and their need to be part of a socio-cultural home.


I was only making a statement that some people *blindly* follow. I'll admit that it came across as a judgment and that was not good of me, but blind following *does* bother me. However I also know that everyone is different and people are in different stages of self awareness.



Sethis said:


> Semantically speaking, there is no difference between the two. Someone will join a certain subculture based on their preferences regarding the amount and nature of social interactions present in that subculture. For example, to draw on a stereotype, someone who places low value on societal interactions may choose to become a stamp collecter. On the other hand (and to use another stereotype) someone who enjoys frequent social contact may join their local football team.


What about people that join certain groups or behaviors because they enjoy them, but are embarrassed by them? For example my wife is a different ethnicity than me. I was totally comfortable with it. However there are many people who will date someone of a different race as long as it's private.

I'm not insulted at all. Should we take this to a PM discussion?


----------



## Sethis

pathwinder14 said:


> I was only making a statement that some people *blindly* follow. I'll admit that it came across as a judgment and that was not good of me, but blind following *does* bother me. However I also know that everyone is different and people are in different stages of self awareness.


I'm glad that you can see your words from another persons point of view, but I don't think you need to apologise. As I said, I am making no value-judgements; I'm not about to condemn you for viewing members of subcultures different to your own as inferior, because that's _exactly_ how subcultures work. It is extremely difficult, psychologically speaking, to value all members of the human race equally (your wife and some drunk thug, for example). It is only logical that we place more importance on people who share our hobbies and outlooks on life than we place on people who do not. It would be totally unrealistic for me to imply that we should cease and desist this behaviour or that there was an ethical problem with it.



pathwinder14 said:


> What about people that join certain groups or behaviors because they enjoy them, but are embarrassed by them?


That would be an example of someone making the decision that the subculture they chose to join is worth the potential embarassment because of the benefits it offers (either social, financial or psychological). My housemate is embarassed about being such a "geek" when his GF comes over, but because she isn't about to dump him over it (she just teases him a bit) then he considers membership of this subculture to be worthwhile. If she would dump him unless he got rid of all his 40k, that would force a choice: Membership to a subculture where he experiences one type of social interaction, or continuing a relationship where he experiences a totally different type of social interaction. It would be up to him as to which he desires more.



pathwinder14 said:


> For example my wife is a different ethnicity than me. I was totally comfortable with it. However there are many people who will date someone of a different race as long as it's private.


I'm not sure that ethnicity could be classed as a subculture... it would depend on how many social norms and values you took up from her native culture, for example if you had to become a practising Jew or Muslim. It would have been your choice at the beginning of the relationship as to whether the pros were worth the cons regarding membership of her own subculture. My girlfriend of 4 years is half-chinese, but because she doesn't have any truly distinct norms and values from British society, her ethnicity was never even a consideration when choosing to date her.



pathwinder14 said:


> Should we take this to a PM discussion?


It's up to you really. If you'll pardon the ego, I think we have a good thing going here that will hopefully help raise the awareness of people who read it. I wouldn't want to deprive the readers of such an interesting discussion! It is also still relevent to the original topic "Why do people hate Ultramarines?" if you just replace the word "subculture" with "army of choice". It's not often you find such a microcosm of real life in an aspect of this hobby.

I'll leave it up to you.


----------



## Tbirch

I say you two keep it going here. It's nice to read an argument (a dialog between two opposing ideologies, i guess) that has not devolved into "yo mama!" type shouting as it usually does on the internet.


----------



## hungryugolino

Or, in this case, suffer not the ultrasmurf to live.


----------



## Lord Reevan

thing with the whole subculture inferiority yokamomabob going on there is that it's pretty common. A lecturer of mine in college, philosophy but media studies for me, brought up a great point randomly about subcultures. When we know about something that others do not we usually talk about it more and use the language from that topic more often as a sign of superiority over others. I know one other person that plays 40k in my course so we talk about it a lot and use all the lingo from these forums too. it's an almost primitive instinct to show superiority over others. there's going too far and being a bigot or over prejudiced over people for their differences but for the most part, I see anyway, it's an alpha character(male and female can do it) in the pack style of thing going on... 

Great points so far guys. keep it up :biggrin:

and about the ultramarines, Done well I really like them. Their paint theme works very well especially with a dark blue painted well. Unfortunately as they are the poster boys they are the majority starter army so they're rarely done to a good standard when seen regularly... that's why I dislike them overall... the amount of piss poor versions of them....


----------



## warsmith7752

why *do* people like ultra-smurfs? even me as a sm player hates them


----------



## Vrykolas2k

The Son of Horus said:


> It's cool to hate on the Ultramarines-- but why do we do it? What is it about the Thirteenth Legion that's so very despicable? Their color scheme is decent, they're the sort of epitome of Space Marine-ness... but yet, everyone seems to hate them. So, tell me, why do you hate the Ultramarines?
> 
> Honestly, the only thing I can think of that's wrong with them is only problematic because they're the sort of iconic Space Marines-- if Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, or Space Wolves were in the same position as the sort of GW sample models of sorts, I'd find them as unoriginal when they show up at the table as the Ultramarines. But that's it-- it really just seems like the Ultramarines player just took their cue from GW and didn't put any thought into it when they show up with 2nd Company Ultramarines. I know that's not necessarily the case, because they're a First Founding Chapter and the blue and gold was what the old Legion wore-- but really, that's the only gripe I can come up with. Does it just seem like people can't stand Space Marines in blue because the internet is a forum for anonymous bitching, or can someone enlighten me as to why people actually really do hate the Ultramarines?




I don't hate the Ultramarines, nor any other army.
I hate the new cookie-cutter codices, which for the most part remove any individuality from most of the armies.
Granted, the Space Wolves and Blood Angels are the way they should be (except for the fact we Wolf players no longer get our Leman Russ tank...), but really the only difference between one Chapter and another or one Craftworld and another is the paint scheme; and Chaos Legions are pretty much gone. They can share the special characters these days, which makes one army=another army completely, and takes away the specialness of said characters.
Lame. I don't know if they thought that out 'ere they started releasing the new codices or not.
They may as well let you field armies from two different codices in tournaments.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Vrykolas2k said:


> I don't hate the Ultramarines, nor any other army.
> I hate the new cookie-cutter codices, which for the most part remove any individuality from most of the armies.
> Granted, the Space Wolves and Blood Angels are the way they should be (except for the fact we Wolf players no longer get our Leman Russ tank...), but really the only difference between one Chapter and another or one Craftworld and another is the paint scheme; and Chaos Legions are pretty much gone. They can share the special characters these days, which makes one army=another army completely, and takes away the specialness of said characters.
> Lame. I don't know if they thought that out 'ere they started releasing the new codices or not.
> They may as well let you field armies from two different codices in tournaments.


Goodbye 3rd Ed. Chaos Codex... We'll miss you.:cray:


----------



## darklove

I think that a few of the Chaos Legions will get their own codex. That should keep them characterful. But CSM are another army I hate, mainly because the players are so type-cast! EMO wannabees, or people that are genuinely dull but want to look like rebels.


----------



## Firewolf

>> I dont have any hatred for the Ultramarines, yeah, they maybe the poster boys, the epitomy of the Codex astartes(Gullman did write it after all) or just plain boring in some peoples eyes. I have noticed a lot of posters on this subject saying "THEY(as in the UM) getting all the new releases/marine releases",. Sorry, but THEY dont, as all Codex marine minis are the base plate for all other Codex chapters. Perhaps if GW started having Imp Fists or White Scars on the boxes, the UM would'nt get as much flack.


----------



## darklove

Do Imp Fists even exist anymore?


----------



## pathwinder14

Sethis said:


> ...It is extremely difficult, psychologically speaking, to value all members of the human race equally (your wife and some drunk thug, for example). It is only logical that we place more importance on people who share our hobbies and outlooks on life than we place on people who do not.


True but I am suggesting we (humans) keep our ethnocentric ideals in check. That's why I apologized. The anthropologist in me rails against biases against other cultures/subcultures. The human in me says that followers that cannot think for themselves need to be helped so they can start doing so. It's a conflict between the opposing ideas of, "To each their own" and "we have to help them see the light".




Sethis said:


> I'm not sure that ethnicity could be classed as a subculture... it would depend on how many social norms and values you took up from her native culture, for example if you had to become a practising Jew or Muslim. It would have been your choice at the beginning of the relationship as to whether the pros were worth the cons regarding membership of her own subculture. My girlfriend of 4 years is half-chinese, but because she doesn't have any truly distinct norms and values from British society, her ethnicity was never even a consideration when choosing to date her.


Yes but both "culture" and "sub culture" share ideas in construction. They both have value systems, gender norms, and superstitious/religious beliefs. So an example of loyalty being torn between two opposing cultures is a valid question.


----------



## buckythefly

I hate them because their everything I want to be... Big, Angry, and Primary Colored...

Hey wait a minute...I already play an army like that.


----------



## Varakir

I hate the ultramarines....because they left me.

They were my very first army, i spent literally minutes tenderly gluing them together and painstakingly slopping paint over each one of them.

I saved up all my pocket money and bought Marneus Calgar. I even glued him to a massive rock, 5 times bigger than his base, which i found in the garden.

I played my first games with them, side by side, brothers in battle. They took wounds, faced casualties, and their pain was my own.

Then afterwards our cries would be triumphant as we looked down upon the bodies of our vanquished foe. We celebrated with fine cuisine and only the most elegant of wines. Then as night night came, we fell asleep in each others arms.

As time went on, we drifted apart. Snide comments and a lapse in conversation at first, and as the days came and went, the passion faded. There are words which linger on my tongue i still wish i could have said.

The fateful day came all too soon. Returning home from school i was devasatated to see my diplay shelves empty, the circular voids in the dust acting only to emphasise how we had grown apart of late.

Fighting back tears i ran to the computer, clicking frantically on the ebay home page. It took 5 attempts to enter my password as my hands trembled in shock, still refusing to believe what i already knew to be true.

As the page loaded, i saw a picture of my ultramarines. It was the picture i took when i finally completed the army. Their radiant smiles looked up at me, transposed through the computer screen, it was like i was seeing them again for the first time, when things were good....when things were perfect.

The tears ran freely now as i glanced across the webpage, reluctantly searching for the five words i dreaded, each uttered syllable striking like a nail through my broken heart:

This auction is now closed.


----------



## nivik

personally i lvoe the ultra's, its what i originally painted my army, and i still think there prity awesome, the reason everyone hates them is cause they want to be different, in truth the ultras could kick any other chapters ass cause there so dam ass big, seriously, without the ultras the empire would have been destroyed long ago. and there color scheme is prity awesome, i even incorporated it into my army (blue and orange) and hold my guys as strong supporters of the ultra's


----------



## hungryugolino

Their colour scheme can be good, if given a good helping of grimdark (darker shades of paint). Usually though, it turns out hideous.

Their fluff is "we're better ha ha". Dull. Pointless. Irritating.

Seriously, wipe them out! Better them than the Blood Angels.


----------



## kriswithak

People hate Ultramarines because normal marines are an embodiment of pure unimaginative boredom and lack of personality (often accompanied by a lack of painting skills, sportsmanship or fairness).
Ultramarines are like super normal marines, they are the same just 100x worse.
Every time I visit a GWS someone tries to shove a box of Marines down my throat, the fact that the Ultra's are on every box certainly doesn't help, and the fact that SM get far more attention than is necessary only makes it worse.
And their paint scheme is like saying "I don't actually care enough to even paint my army, I just dipped them into a tub of paint and stuck them on a base!"

The fact they are the biggest seller is almost purely based on the fact they are shoved down your throat at every GWS, and the fact they get 100000000% more attention than any other army. I'm suprised GWS staff don't offer sexual favours if you buy SM's they seem so intent on only selling a single line.

Probably the icing on the cake is all the Space Marine players who then think that the colour you paint your army makes it a specific type of army, or a specific chapter because they lack the intelligence or imagination to have come up with their own colour scheme.
What those aspect warriors are illegal they aren't blue, all Dire Avengers are blue!!!!!! WAH WAH WAH QQQQQQQQQ
You didn't make your DH silver enough/you used the wrong ink it has to be blue, etc etc etc.

Its the embodiment of the retarded player, and the vast majority of them play Space Marines.


----------



## Frogthor

BECAUSE THEY SUCK!!! :threaten: :angry:

I haven't been paying attention to what people have been saying, but that is the answer to the question, and I'm sure most would agree. Right? RIGHT? :threaten:


----------



## Baron Spikey

That is YOUR answer, one I completely disagree with and all the other unoriginal idiots who seem to have an irrational hatred of Ultramarines- 

Why can't Ultramarines be a bit different? 

So what Chapter would you like to replace them as the epitome of the Codex Astartes, or are we just going to pretend that Codex: Space Marines (which in 2nd Edition was actually called Codex: Ultramarines) doesn't actually exist because you think it's boring?

Saying that the Ultramarines paint scheme is so laughably easy is itself retarded, none of the Space Marines Codexes have a difficult paint scheme, hell Black Templars just need to be primed and you're almost finished. The same with alot of the Eldar both Ulthwe and Beil-Tann are in same boat of a quick Prime and 10 mins with a brush.

Space Marines are often accompanied by a lack of sportsmanship and fairness? Oh shut up and grow a pair.


----------



## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> That is YOUR answer, one I completely disagree with and all the other unoriginal idiots who seem to have an irrational hatred of Ultramarines-
> 
> Why can't Ultramarines be a bit different?
> 
> So what Chapter would you like to replace them as the epitome of the Codex Astartes, or are we just going to pretend that Codex: Space Marines (which in 2nd Edition was actually called Codex: Ultramarines) doesn't actually exist because you think it's boring?
> 
> Saying that the Ultramarines paint scheme is so laughably easy is itself retarded, none of the Space Marines Codexes have a difficult paint scheme, hell Black Templars just need to be primed and you're almost finished. The same with alot of the Eldar both Ulthwe and Beil-Tann are in same boat of a quick Prime and 10 mins with a brush.
> 
> Space Marines are often accompanied by a lack of sportsmanship and fairness? Oh shut up and grow a pair.


I was going to post something similar but I doubt it could be said better. :laugh:


----------



## Cato Sicarius

Frogthor said:


> BECAUSE THEY SUCK!!! :threaten: :angry:
> 
> I haven't been paying attention to what people have been saying, but that is the answer to the question, and I'm sure most would agree. Right? RIGHT? :threaten:


Why? Why do they suck? According to the rest of the thread most people seem to be complaining that the fluff makes them look awesome, so surely they cannot suck. 

In response to the reasoning that "Because they are supposedly the best in the fluff.": Well if they weren't, who would be? There has to be someone who is better. And would you hate on them, if they were? 

Say the White Scars were depicted as the most awesome chapter ever, and say they were on every box, would you hate on them? Most probably yes. The reason: childish jealousy. It's a game. It is fiction. The fluff doesn't make any difference to the way the tabletop game works, so just shut up about it. Yes, the Ultramarines fended off Hive Fleet Behemoth, so what? My Ultramarines couldn't fend off a 1000 point Tau Strike force, and the last time I played against Tyranids I was consumed within 4 turns, not because they suck, but because the game IS A GAME. The strength of your army depends on YOU, get that into your heads. You could have a Double-Lash/Nurgle list and still fall to the same tactics because you don't know what you're doing.

Fluff makes no difference, so there's no point complaining about it.


----------



## Baltar

The Ultra's suck because there is nothing to love or hate about them, at all.

The fact that they provide almost nothing beyond norm that some people will love and others wont, actually makes them offensive. They are too perfect for their own good. It's sickening.

They are a ken doll in power armour.

They don't have any bad features.; That IS their bad feature. It's very easy to hate them because of it.

They also have no redeeming features above that - they are too mainstream to have any extra cool niche features that might make them rise above it, like other chapters.

They are like a stereotypical blonde bimbo, all airbrushed and pushed into a shampoo advert or something. Now flaws, and no features to stand out - so you look, and forget the sight of them within seconds. You remember what you saw, but you don't actually remember their face. It was too bland, and too perfect.

Ultra's are the bimbos of space.

It wouldn't surprise me if the new Ultramarine movie had them running along a beach in slo' mo' to the Baywatch theme tune.


----------



## hungryugolino

As for being the best, that's not necessary. No need to make one chapter better. If you really want to though, is it necessary to take it to such ridiculous lengths? Honestly, people whine about Tau getting favored treatment in the fluff...Ultras are worse than any Tau favoritism. At least the Tau just come off as naive.


----------



## Baron Spikey

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The Ultra's suck because there is nothing to love or hate about them, at all.
> 
> The fact that they provide almost nothing beyond norm that some people will love and others wont, actually makes them offensive. They are too perfect for their own good. It's sickening.
> 
> They are a ken doll in power armour.
> 
> They don't have any bad features.; That IS their bad feature. It's very easy to hate them because of it.
> 
> They also have no redeeming features above that - they are too mainstream to have any extra cool niche features that might make them rise above it, like other chapters.
> 
> They are like a stereotypical blonde bimbo, all airbrushed and pushed into a shampoo advert or something. Now flaws, and no features to stand out - so you look, and forget the sight of them within seconds. You remember what you saw, but you don't actually remember their face. It was too bland, and too perfect.
> 
> Ultra's are the bimbos of space.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if the new Ultramarine movie had them running along a beach in slo' mo' to the Baywatch theme tune.


See now this is an argument I disgree with but I can respect because says more than *'They Suck! Just 'cause'*

I think the biggest flaw of the Ultramarines is the fact that they're so dogmatic, Space Wolves and Dark Angels are very pragmatic but the UM cling so tightly to the Codex that it blinds them sometimes to the reality that the Codex is a guide not the be all, end all. But then again they're also the closest Space Marine force to an actual modern armed force, whereas the other 4 Astartes Codexes fall into the boring: Viking, Monk, Vampire, Crusader categories...wow so much more interesting :shok:


----------



## Baltar

I think it isn't the ultramarines as a whole that I dislike - it's Ultramarines on an individual basis.

They are like the model pretty boys of the 40k universe. I get the image of 'Top Gun-esque Val Kilmer" cruising around with some uber cheesy facial expression, or perhaps Armageddon-esque Ben Affleck in a suit of blue power armour and a couple of service studs in this forehead - THAT is a quintessential Ultramarine, and I hate it.

At least when I picture individual marines from other chapters, I picture a lethal killing machine, and not some model in shiny armour :S

I can see it now. Robert Pattinson dropping out of the sky with a jump pack, shiny blue armour all polished up, right behind Ben Affleck, gritting his teeth and shooting a bolter as though it's a garden hose.

Sick.

Ultramarines. Are. Sick.


----------



## gen.ahab

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think it isn't the ultramarines as a whole that I dislike - it's Ultramarines on an individual basis.
> 
> They are like the model pretty boys of the 40k universe. I get the image of 'Top Gun-esque Val Kilmer" cruising around with some uber cheesy facial expression, or perhaps Armageddon-esque Ben Affleck in a suit of blue power armour and a couple of service studs in this forehead - THAT is a quintessential Ultramarine, and I hate it.
> 
> At least when I picture individual marines from other chapters, I picture a lethal killing machine, and not some model in shiny armour :S
> 
> I can see it now. Robert Pattinson dropping out of the sky with a jump pack, shiny blue armour all polished up, right behind Ben Affleck, gritting his teeth and shooting a bolter as though it's a garden hose.
> 
> Sick.
> 
> Ultramarines. Are. Sick.


See..... replace the word ultramarines in that post with the words Blood Angels and you have my views. Come on you have to admit if there are such a thing as pretty boy marines it’s the blood angels. Sorry but the simple fact of the matter is that the blood angels are the pretty marines, not the ultramarines.


----------



## Baltar

I don't see the BA as the pretty marines, I see them as the Angsty marines. I get very pissed off with all of their "*sob sob* *shed tears* Oh, shit, our father Sanguinius is dead, and I've been whining about it for the past 10,000 years, whatever am I to do?" shit.

I don't think that I ever actually saw them as pretty boys, though - they all look the same! Long blonde/black hair. Sad looking. That kind of shiz.


----------



## countchocula86

I would tag the Dark Angels as the emos of the Astartes.


----------



## Baltar

^ what he said, too.


----------



## gen.ahab

I would also give that title to the Blood Angels... sorry.


----------



## ShadowMatt

countchocula86 said:


> I would tag the Dark Angels as the emos of the Astartes.





gen.ahab said:


> I would also give that title to the Blood Angels... sorry.


Actually, most of the emo's:cray:/goths I have seen play chaos marines...


----------



## LukeValantine

Really damn that is a black mark on chaos, by chance do you know which chaos factions these individuals play so I can better ridicule them?


----------



## Baltar

Either way, Ben Affleck in a blue suit of armour is, essentially, any given Ultramarine (Yes, even Uriel Ventris, the complete and utter douchebag not worthy of inhaling Honsou's farts).

Pasanius = Young Ben Affleck

Uriel Ventris = Slightly older Ben Affleck

Cato Sicarus = Middle Aged Ben Affleck

Marneus Calgar = Old Ben Affleck

It's an army of annoying.


----------



## Kale Hellas

what do you people have against emo's and goths there awesome people, and sorry to say but blood angels are the pretty boys of space marines


----------



## gen.ahab

And no matter what you say the BA are a band of pretty boy, bitchy ass, prissy little sissy marines who won't stop bitching about their dead primarch and can't controle their damn hissy fits. Throw in a disturbing fascination with blood and the inability to cut their god damn hair and you have the pretty boys of the space marines. Oh... Not to mentionthe fact that they act like children and refuse to give the STCs they have found to the adeptus mechanicus so that all chapters could use the tech, share the damn toys you avaricious little bastards! Lol 
Sorry, off topic rant. Lol but anyway, Ultramarines have a huge amount to character, just have to be able to appreciate it. Lol


----------



## Baltar

It's true...

But...

It's ok...

Because they aren't all Ben Affleck.


----------



## gen.ahab

They arn't.... Ahhh fuck it. I hate the blood angels you hate the Ultramarines I will just leave it at that. Lol


----------



## Baltar

I don't hate the chapter. I just hate them individually. If I were to meet just one from each chapter, I can tell that it's the Ultramarine that would piss me off the most. Matt Damon or Ben Affleck in armour would turn up, basically.

However, I would say that the most annoying chapter is probably the space wolves:

"WE ARE MEAN AND CLICHÉ, GROWL RAWR. WE ARE SO CONVINCINGLY BADASS, HONEST. WE ARE BASICALLY A GINGER GIMLI IN ARMOUR"

Or the DA:

"WE HAVE SECRETS THAT EVERYONE KNOWS". NOT THAT ANYONE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE WE ARE FRICKIN' SPACE MARINES"


----------



## gen.ahab

I love the space wolves.....primarily because they are fucking hilarious. Lol DA are ok but I will admit they can be gloomy bastards at times which gets rather annoying after a while. It's why I made my chapter a hybrid of the two with a little pre-heresy emperors children thrown into the mixing pot. Came out an odd group but fun for fluff. But anyway all the chapters have their little quirks.... Best not to blow them to out of proportion..... unless of course it's the damn blood angels. Lol jk


----------



## Varakir

If the ultramarines were an army of Ben Afflecks i'd be all over that army.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

I have to say the lack of interesting modeling ideas for the UM, adds to my dislike of them. Converting is my favourite part of this hobby, but the UM don't provide many interesting conversion opportunities, they're just regular marines in blue armour. Whereas; 

Space Wolves: Giant, Crazy, Werewolf, Marines.
Blood Angels: Giant, Crazy, Vampire, Angel, Marines.
Iron Hands: Giant, Cyborg, Marines.
Black Templars: Giant, Crazy, Religious, Marines.
Salamanders: Giant, Fire-Lizard, Marines.

Ultramarines: Giant, Blue, Marines.


----------



## jigplums

with tyranid trophies adorning there armour. like the awesome dread that won the slayer sword a few years back


----------



## hungryugolino

Too bad we never see that, except with Forge World dreads.


----------



## bakoren

jigplums said:


> with tyranid trophies adorning there armour. like the awesome dread that won the slayer sword a few years back


*cuddles a crying ripper*

You people are monsters! :cray:


----------



## Cato Sicarius

@ hungryugolino: That's why the idea's there. We don't see it, so maybe somebody should model it, huh?

@ The Real Sanguinius: Your argument doesn't seem to make much viable sense. You like them as a chapter, but you don't like them individually? How would you know what they're like individually? And besides that: they're Space Marines - they're practically the same. They think the same, but some are a little more creative than others. Other than that they all follow the same Chapter rules and traditions. So in the same way, an Imperial Fist would annoy you, a Genesis Chapter Marine would annoy you, most Chapter Space Marines would annoy you quite a bit because most Chapter Space Marines follow the Codex Astartes.

As to the Ben Afleck thing, why? What convinced you that an Ultramarine is Ben Afleck (or vice versa)? Who would you imagine a Blood Angel as? I'd say Robert Pattinson is less Ultramarine and more Blood Angels personally, mainly for his role as Edward Cullen (pretty boy vampire).


----------



## countchocula86

Maybe its a reflection on us. I mean the Ultramarines essentially represent the base SM chapter. They follow all the rules to a tee, they make use of the full arsenal. They are Space Marines to the fullest extent. If we were to extrapolate that to the real world, well they would be those top tier kids. Smart, athletic, easy going. The popular kids.

Perhaps, at least those SM players who maybe occupy the fringe, this doesnt resonate so well as some of the more fractured chapters. You know, your Dark Angels are your kinda emo/goth kids. Your Blood Angels are the vampire-wannabes, Space Wolves are those crazy party jock types. Black Templar are the religous kid always readin his bible.


----------



## hungryugolino

Bah. Stop the psychobabble, Dr. Freud. 

Tell me why I have a compulsion to play Blood Ravens, then.


----------



## countchocula86

> Bah. Stop the psychobabble, Dr. Freud.
> 
> Tell me why I have a compulsion to play Blood Ravens, then.


Dr Freud sez: Penis Envy? In love with your mother? 

Presumably you played DOW and enjoyed it, and thus they represent the hobby for you currently.


----------



## Vrykolas2k

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I don't see the BA as the pretty marines, I see them as the Angsty marines. I get very pissed off with all of their "*sob sob* *shed tears* Oh, shit, our father Sanguinius is dead, and I've been whining about it for the past 10,000 years, whatever am I to do?" shit.
> 
> I don't think that I ever actually saw them as pretty boys, though - they all look the same! Long blonde/black hair. Sad looking. That kind of shiz.





Anne Rice Space Marines.
Lovely.


----------



## darklove

So many pages of UM hate, there must be something in it. I wonder if GW realise the resentment they are breeding in the gaming community by over egging them?


----------



## Baron Spikey

I think GW love the depth of feeling people have on this subject, any publicity is good publicity after all.


----------



## darklove

Baron Spikey said:


> I think GW love the depth of feeling people have on this subject, any publicity is good publicity after all.


:laugh: I can't believe some people still believe that! It is the line a PR company uses with its clients after an epic fail. It's up there with 'the customer is always right' as the least understood marketing phrase. FYI, negative publicity is bad, and stay well clear of any shop/company that insists their customers are always right because they are exploiting their customers.


----------



## hungryugolino

Well, then they're idiots. That's hardly news though, is it?


----------



## The Archangel

The reason I don't like the Ultramarines is because I'm, if i may say so myself, a creative person and to me the Ultramarines are simply these guys in the basic armour with a basic troop type and who fight basic enemies for the basic reason (for the Emperor), whereas, say the Dark Angels fight the Fallen, the Space Wolves fight for Glory, the Raven Guard are sneaky buggers, the Iron HAnds are cyborgs. It's the same reason I don't particularly like the Imperial Fists, but they're not as unoriginal as the Ultramarines. 

Another reason is because they are named after a colour. A colour. Honestly. It's like GW just saw the word "ultra" and "Marine" and thought "Oh, that'd be a good chapter!" and then they make them the colour they're named after, as if to show a link between the name and the colour.


----------



## Minizke1

Let's be honest; the Ultramarines are glorified above all chapters in EVERYTHING. The Playstation 3 game allows you to play as an Ultramarine, and only an Ultramarine. The Codex is filled with nothing but pictures of the 13th Legion, and all of the examples for SM units are Ultramarines, save chapter-specific units. The Ultramarines aren't the protectors of a single planet, but an entire system of them, and somehow, they remain at LEGION strength. Marneus Calgar is the representation of what to me seems an "Emperor's Right-hand Man," as he somehow resolves all disputes between other chapters, as with the example in the codex of my Crimson Fists and the Mortifactors. Please take this into consideration next time you see an Ultramarine.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Minizke1 said:


> Let's be honest; the Ultramarines are glorified above all chapters in EVERYTHING. The Playstation 3 game allows you to play as an Ultramarine, and only an Ultramarine. The Codex is filled with nothing but pictures of the 13th Legion, and all of the examples for SM units are Ultramarines, save chapter-specific units. The Ultramarines aren't the protectors of a single planet, but an entire system of them, and somehow, they remain at LEGION strength. Marneus Calgar is the representation of what to me seems an "Emperor's Right-hand Man," as he somehow resolves all disputes between other chapters, as with the example in the codex of my Crimson Fists and the Mortifactors. Please take this into consideration next time you see an Ultramarine.


Well it's actually 8 systems :grin: and they're not Legion strength, they're only 1,000 strong.


----------



## Baltar

I kinda liked how infuriated Uriel Ventris got after meeting the Mortifactors:

Ben afleck: "RAWR, you're way moar interesting than we are! GRRRRR!! But we are the ultramarines! RABABABABABABABABABABABLE"


----------



## Vrykolas2k

Baron Spikey said:


> Well it's actually 8 systems :grin: and they're not Legion strength, they're only 1,000 strong.


Sort of... half their successor chapters' Masters wear knee-pads for just in case Marneus needs something. They're pretty much still Ultramarines by default.


----------



## Minizke1

Baron Spikey said:


> Well it's actually 8 systems :grin: and they're not Legion strength, they're only 1,000 strong.


1,000 is Legion strength, isn't it?


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander

Nope, thats Chapter Strength. Legion is 12,000 I believe. Might be more, not sure.


----------



## Serpion5

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> Nope, thats Chapter Strength. Legion is 12,000 I believe. Might be more, not sure.


Legion strength depends on the legion. Some were 10,000, some were a lot more some were a lot less. Don`t have the names or figures and don`t care to look further into it but that`s how it was.


----------



## Abomination

Probably because they are seen as the 'poster boys' and they get the most special characters of all the regular codex chapters and get the most background in the codex. They were my first army (2004-2009).

Maybe because they are also one of (if not the) most common army's people see.

With so much attention its only natural they would attract their fair share of detractors.


----------



## DorfFortress

I've had an Ultramarines army for 15 years, started back in 3rd edition. Back when,1) they weren't on front of the rule book (crimson fist instead), 2) GW staff wasn't pushing them at people, 3) i could still rhino rush, so rhinos were actually worth the points, 4) There were 2 Ultramarines characters, who couldn't even be used without having a 2500 point army, 5) margenus calgar was not a robot. 6) BT were the marines of choice for new players, because all that had to be done was primer and the eyes. 

I think back to those days, and never member anyone having an issue with UM. I also never remember playing any other UM armies during those years. when fourth edition came out I decided to start a guard army. last year I went to a tournament that I attend every year, and instead of using my guard, I decided to dust off the old marines and use them instead. I was almost immediately called unoriginal and told that I had a "fucktarded" army by people half my age. When I inquired as to how my army was "fucktarded" the dark angels player in front of me replied that they look like smurfs, are always on the front of the codex, and have too many special characters. I pointed out that they were not on the front of the codex and had few characters when I started, and his only response was that they were "fucktarded now" so it doesn't matter what they were like back then. I left my comments to myself on the DA latent Homosexuality. 

This thread leaves me to believe that there are people who have legitimate reasons for hating UM. However I still feel that from my personal experiences, like the one above, everyone just seems to hate UM because there popular now. I hated black templars back then because: they were the only army that could take 3 crusaders, they were mainly used by new players who refused to put any effort into painting them, and when experienced players used them, they took advantage of some incredibly cheesy rules usually resulting in them winning. Give it a few years and there will probably be a new army that everyone hates on. My guess is blood angles and there ability to have 11 dreadnoughts on in one FOC (I don't really know though, I haven't played anyone with the new BA codex yet).


----------



## An'ggrath the Unbound

Personally, I hate the Ultramarines for a number of reasons. First, I hate their colour. The colour blue just pisses me off, and I hate seeing it getting thrown around at every single Warhammer 40k tournament. Also, I get tired of always seeing the Ultramarines on the first few pages of most search engines whenever I look up "Space Marine(s)" or "Warhammer 40k." Lastly, my little brother loves the Ultramarines and can't stop talking about them. I'm serious, he won't shut up about them. Ever.
I think that Roboute Guilliman should have just killed himself before the Great Crusade, thereby removing the Ultramarines from the grand picture.
:suicide:


----------



## An'ggrath the Unbound

Serpion5 said:


> Legion strength depends on the legion. Some were 10,000, some were a lot more some were a lot less. Don`t have the names or figures and don`t care to look further into it but that`s how it was.


 Ultramarines had approx 25000 marines before the heresy, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus had approx. 15000, Iron Warriors had approx. 12000, Thousand Sons had approx. 8000, Emperor's Children had between 6000 and 7000, others have no indication anywhere on what thier numbers may be.


----------



## Jack Johnson

i really hate the Ultramarines because even though they a whole system of planets to get enitiats from but the Codex Astardes dictates that a Chapter can only up to 1000 Astardes. The Pre-heracy Ultramarines had around 25'000 Astardes. To me, the guy in charge is really stupid.


----------



## gen.ahab

Jack Johnson said:


> i really hate the Ultramarines because even though they a whole system of planets to get enitiats from but the Codex Astardes dictates that a Chapter can only up to 1000 Astardes. The Pre-heracy Ultramarines had around 25'000 Astardes. To me, the guy in charge is really stupid.


WOW wow.... wait whats your problem? I don't quite understand what your issue is.


----------



## Leirasapostle

To me theyve always represented conformity, their primarch wrote the rule boook for space marines and tried to get all the chapters to follow it and i just find that annoying.


----------



## WarWolf88

Leethal said:


> -_Door is thrown open dramatically_ -
> 
> Julis: Hark the angels sing! It is I, Julius Raseac! Son of Guilliman, the Emperor's finest! I...AM...ULTRAMARINE!
> Raka: FINE! I don't give a heretic's ass! Go there, shut up and line up!
> Julis: Line up where?
> Raka: NEXT TO THEM! THOSE MARINES! SERIOUSLY!
> Julis: Ah, I see them now.
> Raka: *_mutters_* Emperor-damned Ultramarines, so many of them. I wish I could kill them all





Leethal said:


> Julis: Emperor's Untouched Copy of the Codex Astartes! Ultramarines FRIGGIN ROCK!


What else is there to be said? Oh, right:



Leethal said:


> Raka: Iron Hand.
> Iron Hand: Yes?
> Raka: Smack him for me.
> Iron Hand: With pleasure
> 
> *_Smacks Julius in the back of the head with his metal hand_*


Seriously tough, I hate the Smurfs because there is a sense that they are suppossed to be the "real" Space Marines, and that everyone should follow their Codex Astartes. It just bugs me off.


----------



## Warmaster Demetrius

Peapole have to remember that ultramarines are a std codex chapter and they get all the new modles first because can you see gw making a diffrent box for all the other std codex chapters that would have the same miniatures in the same box with just a diffrent piture on the front.

anyway I think that people generally hate them because all the new kids that play marines play them and they are seen as babyish.

I personally think they look great and if i never collected guard it would have been ultramarines.


----------



## The Sullen One

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> i think that red orc hit on the dot, this same kind of resentment is happening on the chaos side with the Black Legion, there are soooooo many chaos players who play Black Legion its not even funny, just like those damned smurfs in armor.
> 
> for those who got into the army and actually love the fluff and whatnot, kudos to you, but for the most part the people that i have faced who play these armies are doing it just because they dont want to have to choose a more "difficult" chapter or army, they simply have no imagination. not to mention how the Black Legion now has the miraculous power to allow a berserker, plague marine, noisemarine, AND a thousand son to all be in the same army and sometimes squad:shok:


Hmm, I play Chaos Space Marines, not Black Legion though, but I've still got all of the cult troops in my army, so I don't see what the problem is. As for their being in the same squad, how is that possible?


----------



## Baron Spikey

An'ggrath the Unbound said:


> Ultramarines had approx 25000 marines before the heresy, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus had approx. 15000, Iron Warriors had approx. 12000, Thousand Sons had approx. 8000, Emperor's Children had between 6000 and 7000, others have no indication anywhere on what thier numbers may be.


Thousand Sons had 12,000 and the Ultramarines had anywhere between 25,000-250,000 (ref. A Thousand Sons 7 HH: Collected Visions).


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander

Jack Johnson said:


> i really hate the Ultramarines because even though they a whole system of planets to get enitiats from but the Codex Astardes dictates that a Chapter can only up to 1000 Astardes. The Pre-heracy Ultramarines had around 25'000 Astardes. To me, the guy in charge is really stupid.


You do realise the reason they make the chapters limited to 1000 is so another Heresy doesn't happen. It's actually quite smart and in no way limits the total number of Space Marines that exist.


----------



## Varakir

I hate the way they seem to have endorsement deals with everyone, anything to get their faces on a billboard/poster/codex.

It's just gone too far.










Also, Sicarius stole my piano.


----------



## hungryugolino

Nooo! Not the piano.

Black Legion isn't as bad; sure they get box art, but they're the butt of jokes everywhere because they're led by the idiot of idiots, failbaddon.

*Insert joke about countless Black Crusades and Cadian gate here.*

:biggrin:

Calgar just isn't as memorable as Abaddon, alleged list of achievements and overpowered rules aside. 

The Black Legion even looks cooler. Black and gold is actually a pretty good colour scheme, over-use aside.


----------



## Baron Spikey

I love how everybody always go on about how crap Abaddon is yet he's the most successful, and powerful, Warlord of the traitor Legions- no other Legion can even come within a stone's throw of the power and influence that the Black Legion enjoys.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

And yet with all that power and influence he's still managed to cock-up 13 times.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Except 1) he hasn't led all 13 Black Crusades and 2) he was defintely victorious in the 12th Black Crusade so who knows with how many others he's met his aims.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Baron Spikey said:


> I love how everybody always go on about how crap Abaddon is yet he's the most successful, and powerful, Warlord of the traitor Legions-


he missed a planet......A PLANET.....nuff said.

I just don't like them because they remind me of an entire army of Quentin Tarentinos
"We are teh greatest SPESS MAHREENS EVARS!!!!!!1111!!!211!!!!!, everybody lieks us loads and stuffs, nobody is evar gonna be bettar than us, we is teh roxors!!!!"
bunch of leet speaking blue underpants wearing ego centric ass bandit chavs who haven't done anything special in years except change there shade of blue.
why they remind me of Quentin.


----------



## DorfFortress

Haven't done anything special in years? They destroyed 2 hive-fleets, where everyone else that tried to destroy a hive fleet has failed. And clearly not everyone likes them, considering there is 23 pages of hate directed towards them from this thread alone. And almost every damn space marine chapter acts like egocentric dicks. Just like most commissars are homicidal maniacs, it's part of what makes them what they are.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

Stella Cadente said:


> he missed a planet......A PLANET.....nuff said.
> 
> I just don't like them because they remind me of an entire army of Quentin Tarentinos
> "We are teh greatest SPESS MAHREENS EVARS!!!!!!1111!!!211!!!!!, everybody lieks us loads and stuffs, nobody is evar gonna be bettar than us, we is teh roxors!!!!"
> bunch of leet speaking blue underpants wearing ego centric ass bandit chavs who haven't done anything special in years except change there shade of blue.
> why they remind me of Quentin.


1) Nobody in 40K has even heard of 1337-speak.

2) How do you know Space Marines even wear underwear? According to old fluff their genitalia was cut-off during the transformation process anyways.

3) It's "egocentric" (all one word) and all Space Marines are egocentric.

4) Wtf is "ass-bandit" supposed to mean?

5) Do you even know what a chav is? Clearly you don't live in West Denton, Newcastle upon Tyne. Go there, you *will* be chased out by *actual chavs* with *guns*.

6) See this quote. It says what I would have said.



DorfFortress said:


> Haven't done anything special in years? They destroyed 2 hive-fleets, where everyone else that tried to destroy a hive fleet has failed. And clearly not everyone likes them, considering there is 23 pages of hate directed towards them from this thread alone. And almost every damn space marine chapter acts like egocentric dicks. Just like most commissars are homicidal maniacs, it's part of what makes them what they are.


QFT


----------



## Baltar

Cadia.

Now there is something to rant ceaselessly about.

A ridiculous concept, tbh. Entire fleets of chaos space marines pour out of the eye of terror, and yet one single system manages to survive. Give me a break.

How many times, in how many books, do you read about a single space marine strike cruiser blasting the shit out of a planet untill it's just a barren rock; or even just a portion of their chapter totally annihilating the planets inhabitants because space marines are so superior to all indigenous populations.

And yet bazillions of chaos space marines with tens of thousands of years worth of combat experience all turn up, over and over again, and get repelled by barely trained humans with flashlights for weapons. Right. So.... why has this planet not had the living shite blasted out of it?

Cadians piss me off. It would really last about a day before it was teaming with khorne beserkers, hacking everyone limb from limb. In fact, they probably wouldn't even take notice of the planet. It'd be like the family guy star wars sketch where the pilot flies off to take on the entire imperial fleet on his own; the choas fleet would fly past the planet and, as an afterthought, blow the shit out of it on their way out...

But no.

We get these ridiculous stories of some fortress world of a handfull of pitifull soldiers that can actually hold off what is essentially the most elite and well equiped fighting force in the galaxy, including the fact that said force is twisted and enhanced by evil and demonic forces.

Right.

No.

Cadia sucks as much ass as the smurfs do.

They should have let the 'nids eat the smurfs, and abbadon eat cadia.


----------



## DorfFortress

A handful of soldiers? Every damn citizen of Cadia is a soldier. The entire system is devoted to war. There's something like 5 battle fleets stationed around cadia, several titan legions stationed on it, and thousands of defense platforms orbiting it. The entire damn world might as well just be a bunch of guns duck-taped together pointing outwards.

Last I checked the imperium lost the last crusade anyway, because as the CS were kicking the shit out of the defenders of cadia, the necrons showed up and starting blasting anything that moved. 

But I do have to agree, surviving 8 CS legions attacking your planet is a little fucking rediulus. There still better than catachans in my mind though. "Our entire planet is made up of rambos and swarchenegger. Were so so muscular we can fight orcs withour bear hands!" Talk about a product of the 80s. sheesh.


----------



## Baltar

Bring back Praetorian guard, ftw.


----------



## Baron Spikey

@Real- So I'm kind of guessing you know bugger all about Cadia then....

It's a fortress world where every single member of the population spends time in the military, basically 1-in-5 Cadians are soldiers, some of the best non-Astartes troops in the Imperium in fact.
The Cadian system has countless defence weapon arrays, space stations and a vast Battle Fleet and then you've got the 20 Astartes Chapters who are based in the surrounding areas for rapid response purposes.

And it's not like they've ever faced the full 9 Traitor Legions before, even Abaddon can't unite them all, he just unites warbands from all the Legions.


----------



## Baltar

Ahh, so you just listed a bunch of stuff not-quite-as-good as what the chaos space marines can bring to the fight...

Just as I suspected then, isn't it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Not really, considering the Cadians on their own would be outnumbered and yet they still manage to hold their own just emphasises how undisciplined your average CSM warband is. Plus the fact that the only place more heavily defended than Cadia is Terra itself, well I doubt any of the Traitor Legion's world would last any where near as long if they weren't situated inside the Eye of Terror.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Ahh, so you just listed a bunch of stuff not-quite-as-good as what the chaos space marines can bring to the fight...
> 
> Just as I suspected then, isn't it.


Um, what? I'm sorry, last time I checked 20 Space Marine chapters is 20,000 Marines stationed nearby. Not to mention the Battle Fleet, defense systems and Cadia itself. More than a match for what the Chaos Marines bring to the fight considering only 1 out of 13 crusades has been even remotely successful. And even that one got rooted by Necrons eventually.


----------



## Baron Spikey

1 out of ?

Not all 13 Black Crusade's objective has been to take or destroy Cadia.


----------



## hungryugolino

Fortress worlds in 40k are tough to crack. They're explicitly said to have countless systems designed to resist orbital attack, and Cadia's one of the best defended in the universe. That, and its unique structures allow it to restrict the size of any attacking force from the eye of terror.

That said Abaddon is an idiot with a Darth Vader complex and a poor sense of strategy. He still has pretty neat rules and a good miniature though, and anything that fights him one on one in the fluff is going to lose. Badly.


----------



## Baltar

His rules in BFG are hilarious, too.


----------



## Soul Hunter

*I personally hate the Ultramarines for a few reasons. Chief among said reasons is that they are so f**king straight and narrow. I mean, they have are so unflinchingly loyal and dutiful that they remove all traces of humanity from themselves. They are so loyal and dutiful that it is impossible for me to see them as anything other than machines. Also, they have a tendency to condemn free thinking. The latest Ultramarine who broke with the Codex Astartes, Captain Uriel Ventris, was sent on a rather long quest to regain his honour, even though his breaking with the Codex saved an entire sector.*


----------



## bakoren

Soul Hunter said:


> *I personally hate the Ultramarines for a few reasons. Chief among said reasons is that they are so f**king straight and narrow. I mean, they have are so unflinchingly loyal and dutiful that they remove all traces of humanity from themselves. They are so loyal and dutiful that it is impossible for me to see them as anything other than machines. Also, they have a tendency to condemn free thinking. The latest Ultramarine who broke with the Codex Astartes, Captain Uriel Ventris, was sent on a rather long quest to regain his honour, even though his breaking with the Codex saved an entire sector.*


If I remember right, red is for Mods buddy.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Cato Sicarius said:


> 1) Nobody in 40K has even heard of 1337-speak.


fluff quote stating this please.


Cato Sicarius said:


> 2) How do you know Space Marines even wear underwear? According to old fluff their genitalia was cut-off during the transformation process anyways.


so no genitals = no underwear?.....sure


Cato Sicarius said:


> 4) Wtf is "ass-bandit" supposed to mean?


*facepalm*


Cato Sicarius said:


> 5) Do you even know what a chav is? Clearly you don't live in West Denton, Newcastle upon Tyne. Go there, you *will* be chased out by *actual chavs* with *guns*.


yes I know what I chav is, I live in telford, we have the highest percentage population rate of chavs in england.


----------



## Cato Sicarius

Stella Cadente said:


> fluff quote stating this please.


I don't normally say this about games like this, but think logically for once. Most people in modern day time don't know what it is, and besides that the people in 40K all speak bastardised mixes of basically every language there is (it differs from world to world).



Stella Cadente said:


> so no genitals = no underwear?.....sure


No, not necessarily. But they're wearing hydraulic super-suits and generally don't bother going to the toilet. The waste is probably simply transported to a removable part of the suit that is later emptied.



Stella Cadente said:


> *facepalm*


What? I genuinely don't know.



Stella Cadente said:


> yes I know what I chav is, I live in telford, we have the highest percentage population rate of chavs in england.


I want facts and figures, please.


----------



## zkarnage27

I think people dislike them because "everyone" does. I heard a figure, from someone at my GW store (don't know about accuracy), that GW sells more space marines than all the other 40k pieces put together. I think it is slightly natural for people to tend to dislike things that are common, or "mainstream" due to wanting to be different.


----------



## darklove

Originally Posted by Cato Sicarius 
2) How do you know Space Marines even wear underwear? According to old fluff their genitalia was cut-off during the transformation process anyways.


We asked Jervis about this at GDUK last year, and the answer was typical: GW have a big file on all SM stuff and it does have info on genitals in it, but they won't say one way or the other what that is and they also reserve the right to change their mind on it...
:grin:


----------



## Cato Sicarius

darklove said:


> Originally Posted by Cato Sicarius
> 2) How do you know Space Marines even wear underwear? According to old fluff their genitalia was cut-off during the transformation process anyways.
> 
> 
> We asked Jervis about this at GDUK last year, and the answer was typical: GW have a big file on all SM stuff and it does have info on genitals in it, but they won't say one way or the other what that is and they also reserve the right to change their mind on it...
> :grin:


So the only source we have is the old fluff which states that it was removed. :biggrin:


----------



## Lucio

I don't really dislike them. My chapter is not fond of them for their devotion to the codex, but personally marines are marines.


----------



## hungryugolino

The answer is obvious. They're a band of heretical deviants in league with the Eldar, who let them use their webway gates. That means they'll all be purged in 6th edition.

We can always dream.


----------



## Championofvulkan

i think its because they have nothing unique theyre just marines i mean take the space wolves(one of my favorite chapters) their heightened senses that stands them out and the salamanders ( my favorite obviously i mean look at my name) they have a demonic appearance by being black and having eyes that are seemingly on fire but the ultras are just disgustingly normal no offense ultra lovers


----------



## raven925

well, besides showing up in every major battle, being GW's poster boys, having every child under the sun that plays THEM, getting the most attention out of everything else, having more sphhhhaaace mahhhrrine! stuff sold in one month than anything else put together... um is that all, cus i know theres more.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

Cato Sicarius said:


> 1) 2) How do you know Space Marines even wear underwear? According to old fluff their genitalia was cut-off during the transformation process anyways.


What fluff says they have their genitalia cut off?
I don't think I've ever read that anywhere.


----------



## Baron Spikey

raven925 said:


> well, besides showing up in every major battle, being GW's poster boys, having every child under the sun that plays THEM, getting the most attention out of everything else, having more sphhhhaaace mahhhrrine! stuff sold in one month than anything else put together... um is that all, cus i know theres more.


They show up in most major battles on the Eastern Fringe because that's where Ultramar is, but other than the 2nd War for Armageddon the Ultramarines have had very little presence in the major wars else where in the Galaxy.


----------



## hungryugolino

They're never shown losing. Ever. That, and Games Worksop (sic) doesn't mention Traitor Marines.

Two small irritants, not much on their own, but when added to everything else adds up to "kill the bluies".


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

I wonder if a poll was taken in the US about how many people collect Ultramarines...you know the getting involved in everything else to help with preserving their own interests  I jest, I jest.

this was in reply to people bitching about the teaser trailer for Ultramaries, but a few points can still stand here:



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Well I thought that was ok. When you think about it, GW already posts Space Marines as one of the last bastions of hope for Humanity, and as for the Ultramarines being the 'greatest', various definitions. Personally I think alot of you are overreacting at the Ultramarines being the best, look at the context of the term. As already mentioned, the Ultramarines hold the greatest network of Successors, and hold a substantial section of Imperial territory, so it might refer to their size and influence. Or maybe, as they are a Greek/Roman-motif Chapter, it refers to their 'noble and lofty character'.


but yeah they get a bit carried away in the fanbase, which creates a 'hate' towards them, if it had been Salamanders as the posterboys from the start we'd be in a same case scenario but with the Sallies


----------



## Baron Spikey

Absolutely, of all the Astartes Chapters the *only* 1 that has more influence in the Imperium as a whole is the Imperial Fists- and that's because they're the Chapter that is the most willing to answer other Imperial organisation's pleas for aid.


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Baron Spikey said:


> Absolutely, of all the Astartes Chapters the *only* 1 that has more influence in the Imperium as a whole is the Imperial Fists- and that's because they're the Chapter that is the most willing to answer other Imperial organisation's pleas for aid.


True Baron. in this case there are two cases of influence; influence through number (Ultras.) and influence through position (?) (Fists). Though if anything, I would have thought GW would have chosen the Fists as posterboys, being the Legion who stood their ground on Terra, while the Ultras. only arrived to pick up the scraps? Really I don't see what's to hate about the Ultras. their Primarch setdown guidelines to running the Legions, splitting them to Chapters, rules of using troops etc, is it only because they revolutionised how the Marines worked that they became posterboys?


----------



## GrizBe

Why isn't it the Blood Angels that are the poster boys? If not for Sanguinius hurting Horus enough, the Emperor would have never been ablet to take hime down. Guilliman was a dumbass who got tricked by the Word Bearers and kept out of most of the fighting as they were held back. They even lost to the Alpha Legion and had to resort to orbital bombardment to finish them off. 

Its only because they were so far away, and arrived long after the battle was already won by the other chapters, that they were the only ones left at full strength, and Guilliman seized command as the only one with the power to back it up, not because he was chosen to do it. Heck, three of the greatest primarchs, Dorn, Vulkan and Russ thought he was an idiot and didn't support his plans until they were forced to. Dorn having the Imperial Fists attacked on all sides by the imperial navy being the only reason he gave in.

Heck... Then later the Ultramarines got their asses handed to them by the Tyranids on their home planet and only just beat them back... yet, they're claimed to be the greatest? Yeah.. right...


----------



## Baron Spikey

GrizBe said:


> Why isn't it the Blood Angels that are the poster boys? If not for Sanguinius hurting Horus enough, the Emperor would have never been ablet to take hime down. Guilliman was a dumbass who got tricked by the Word Bearers and kept out of most of the fighting as they were held back. They even lost to the Alpha Legion and had to resort to orbital bombardment to finish them off.


Blood Angels tricked by Horus, and again it was Horus who told the Ultramarines to gather at Calth where they were attacked by the Word Bearers


GrizBe said:


> Its only because they were so far away, and arrived long after the battle was already won by the other chapters, that they were the only ones left at full strength, and Guilliman seized command as the only one with the power to back it up, not because he was chosen to do it. Heck, three of the greatest primarchs, Dorn, Vulkan and Russ thought he was an idiot and didn't support his plans until they were forced to. Dorn having the Imperial Fists attacked on all sides by the imperial navy being the only reason he gave in.


Well first the Imperial Fists weren't attacked on all sides, it was one Imperial Fists vessel fired upon by another Imperial Navy ship- neither was said to be destroyed and nothing suggests that Guilliman ordered it.
Guilliman was backed in his plans by Corax and the Khan (who had also stood and defended Terra alongside Dorn). Gulliman might have incurred relatively few losses during the Heresy itself but between the ending of the Heresy and the break up of the Legions the Ultramarines were severly depleted (somewhere between 75-90% of the Legion was destroyed) holding the Imperium together.


GrizBe said:


> Heck... Then later the Ultramarines got their asses handed to them by the Tyranids on their home planet and only just beat them back... yet, they're claimed to be the greatest? Yeah.. right...


 An entire Hive Fleet attacking in one hammer blow! Other Chapters have lost their homeworld because of a massively smaller splinter fleet invading, yet the Ultramarines along with the Ultramar Guard and the Battlefleet of the Segmentum just managed to hold off millions and millions of tyranids- at a time when there were no anti-Tyranid doctrines and they were a virtually unknown aggresor I might add.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Baron Spikey said:


> An entire Hive Fleet attacking in one hammer blow! Other Chapters have lost their homeworld because of a massively smaller splinter fleet invading, yet the Ultramarines along with the Ultramar Guard and the Battlefleet of the Segmentum just managed to hold off millions and millions of tyranids- at a time when there were no anti-Tyranid doctrines and they were a virtually unknown aggresor I might add.


And that's part of the problem. They're just too good at everything, and seem to always come out on top. They're like that guy at school who's good at everything. Secretly everyone hates him. Part of what makes people (and groups of people for that matter) interesting are not just they're strengths, but there faults, mistakes and weaknesses too.


----------



## GrizBe

Yet.. Sanguinius was the one who delivered the blow that caused the Emperor to be able to even defeat Horus in the first place.... Oh.. and he happened to be there with his legion, not on teh otehr side of the universe.

The fact was, Guilliman was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, so it was most defiantely him who ordered the Navy to fire on the Imperial Fists.

And thats Corax, 'Oh I'll just mutate my chapters geneseed and create a bunch of mutants I'll have to euthanise', and Khan 'I'll hide at the back in this Razorback while you guys fight out there' who supported him? 

And having 70 -90% of your chapter destory, just defending not being in battle against any tough opponants, after the Heresy... thats really bad leadership in anyones books.

The fact is, the Smurfs aren't very good at anything and got everything they did by sheer luck rather then battling for it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

GrizBe said:


> Yet.. Sanguinius was the one who delivered the blow that caused the Emperor to be able to even defeat Horus in the first place.... Oh.. and he happened to be there with his legion, not on teh otehr side of the universe.


 Considering how far away the Ultramarines were from Terra they only got to Earth very shortly after the DA & SW who were much, much closer. The Blood Angels were, relatively speaking, very close to Terra, so that would be like saying you're in Texas and I'm in Toronto lets see who can get to the Alamo (spelling?) first and if I can't get there at the same time as you I'm obviously crap.



GrizBe said:


> The fact was, Guilliman was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, so it was most definitely him who ordered the Navy to fire on the Imperial Fists.


He was a Lord Commander but that doesn't mean he ordered that ship to fire on the Imperial Fists, he declared Dorn a heretic (and for all we know that just might have been a fit of anger breaking through his aloof facade) yet if he'd commanded the Imperial Navy to fire on the IF you'd think it would be mentioned somewhere. More likely was the fact that a number of Imperial Navy Commanders took it upon themselves to persecute the Sons of Dorn because they believed it was what Guilliman wanted (it's happened before in English history so why not in 40k?).



GrizBe said:


> And thats Corax, 'Oh I'll just mutate my chapters geneseed and create a bunch of mutants I'll have to euthanise', and Khan 'I'll hide at the back in this Razorback while you guys fight out there' who supported him?


Don't you mean Khan '_I helped save Terra by throwing myself directly at the traitors rather than hiding behind the walls of the Palace like Dorn and Sanguinius?_', whereas Dorn '_I was too blinded by rage to even bother trying to save the Imperium_' was supported by Russ '_I have an entire legion of undisciplined, mutant Astartes_' and Vulkan '_well I have a tiny legion so the Codex won't really effect me but I like being argumentative_'



GrizBe said:


> And having 70 -90% of your chapter destory, just defending not being in battle against any tough opponants, after the Heresy... thats really bad leadership in anyones books.


Not any tough battles, you know except for all those tough battles against every Xenos race that attacked the Imperium at it's weakest moment, all those Traitors that need to be driven out of the Imperium...yeah those battles were so easy. Unlike the other Legions they didn't stay concentrated they spread through out the enitre Imperium holding it together, the fact that all the Ultramarines weren't slain speaks of a genius level of leadership at work.


GrizBe said:


> The fact is, the Smurfs aren't very good at anything and got everything they did by sheer luck rather then battling for it.


 They are/were one of the most disciplined, tactically flexible Chapters/Legions of their time- unlike the berserkers of the Blood Angels or the intrinsically undisciplined Space Wolves the UM work as a proper military force.


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## hungryugolino

In short, not only is Games Workshop making the Smurfs look better than the others, they're not doing it well.


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## Lord Rahl

I like the ultra smurfs, they are proberly the only Gay Marines i do like lol, as for all those Gay Angels and things, NAH cant be doing with them.


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## darkreever

Personally, I used to dislike them just because of Guilliman; other than him the chapter was fine as far as I was concerned. Its that primarch who irked me; but then I thought about it and all those reasons I disliked him, every one of them was unfounded, untrue, or stupid.

Not my favorite one out there, but far from the least liked either.

Some people hate on Guilliman for ruining the Imperium and reshaping it in his image, well answer this one; who else was stepping up to lead the shattered loyalists in the wake of the Heresy and Scouring?


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## GrizBe

Considering that he had the only full strength chapter left and pretty much snatched power because of it...

Well, the popular choice of the emerors favourite son Sanguinius had sacrificed himself and with Guilliman declaring the finest strategic brain of Dorn a heretic... not really much other choice that would have had the full support of everyone.


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## Baron Spikey

During the Scouring when the Imperium was at it's weakest point Dorn didn't attempt to hold the Imperium together, nor did any of the other Primarchs- only Guilliman spread his Legion throughout the Imperium to combat the enemies of mankind whilst Russ and Dorn tried to exorcise their demons by futiley exacting revenge. The Imperium didn't need for the Astartes to punish the Traitors just then, they needed their superhuman defenders to prevent the Empire of Man from slipping into extinction.

Gulliman didn't restructure the armed forces of the Imperium until after he'd expended the majority of his Legion's strength fighting all the threats to mankind- he didn't snatch power, quite the opposite in fact he changed the way the military was run resulting in him having far less power.

You can bitch that Guilliman took it upon himself to enforce his ideas but at least he was loyal to the Emperor's vision rather than his own guilt-ridden grief and anger like Dorn.


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## King Gary

I'm guilty of this i must admit, my problem for years was in the name 'ultra' like they're meant to be something special and i remember my puzzlement (we're going back beyond 3rd ed now) when i found out that there were other chapters with an awful lot more character. btw, Have we had the 'they're space romans' discussion yet?

The four biggies as far as spacemarines are concerned have traditionally been the ultramarines, space wolves, dark angels and blood angels. In SM terms that translates as the romans, barbarians, priests (not the kiddy fiddling type though) and the mentally unstable. I mean, which of those is going to be more fun to collect? In those terms the UM definately show connatations of imperialism in it's purest form and quickly loose their appeal.

Anyone that's been collecting over a number of years must have seen GW trying to react to the backlash against the UM. It's the UM that have had the most famous victory over tyranids, defeating the supposedly indestructable, through to that mental UM chaplain fighting off a bloodthirser in DOW winter assault. It's PR gone mad i tell you, just imagine what the dark eldar could do with Guillman's agent!

There certainly is a 'default choice' value to an UM army, particularly for newer players but over some years i've developed a respect for the more experienced players that actively choose to play the Ultramarines. It's taking the idea of a SM army back to it's core, cutting out the waffle, there's possibly even an 'ironic cool' to it. They're still pretty boys though.


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## Baron Spikey

I'm always puzzled by the '_why are Ultramarines GW's poster boy_' statement.

Well first of all Space Marines are the iconic army of 40k, and second most Space Marine Chapters model themselves after the Ultramarines.
You might as well have the Chapter most other Chapters are based on as your Poster Child.


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## Amoeba Bait

Totally agree killmainburn. I think the Ultramarines get all the love cause they were the biggest Legion in the time of the Heresy (corrrect me if I'm wrong), and they are the template for other codex chapters, as Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes.

On the topic of kids and firsts armies, my litte brother, who is 11, just started 40k and he has created a custom chapter (stormslayers). However I think his desicon to be original was based on the fact that I have been into GW gaming for many years prior to my brother. For people just starting out 40k, the Space Marines are a good foundation, as they are all rounders; as apposed to shooty armies like Tau. As to the Ultramarines, it is a good starting point due to all the fluff and characters.

Also, this is my first post on Hersey-Online, and I look forward to using this forum alot!


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## GrizBe

Amoeba Bait said:


> Totally agree killmainburn. I think the Ultramarines get all the love cause they were the biggest Legion in the time of the Heresy (corrrect me if I'm wrong), and they are the template for other codex chapters, as Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes.
> 
> On the topic of kids and firsts armies, my litte brother, who is 11, just started 40k and he has created a custom chapter (stormslayers). However I think his desicon to be original was based on the fact that I have been into GW gaming for many years prior to my brother. For people just starting out 40k, the Space Marines are a good foundation, as they are all rounders; as apposed to shooty armies like Tau. As to the Ultramarines, it is a good starting point due to all the fluff and characters.



That pretty much nails it... UM's only get the love as the fluff paints them that way, and they're only pushed as the poster boys because they're space marines. 

I bet you any money if they switch to any other space marine chapter, they'd get just as many sales, probably more as you'd get new characters and different models and people wouldn't be sick of the smurf paint job.

As said, Marines are a great starting army and are easy to be competative with, and have almost infinite customability with the fact thres thousands of un-named legions in the fluff you can style your chapter as.


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