# Angron's fall, uninteresting?



## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

so basically, so far we've seen the falls of 3 of the primarchs that follow the specific gods of chaos (mortarion less so). and well it seemed to me that by the end of Isstvaan 5 Angron was already in the service of choas and by extenstion Khorne. 

is it too late for the heresy guys to do this? is it too one dimensional? (him being a socio/psychopath and all)

personally i've always viewed khorne and Angron as decidely boring as there really doesnt seem to be anything other than charge and kill everyone.
it depresses me honestly, if they did a story and put plenty of thought into his fall and gave him a much better story than "i like killing, khorne likes killing, DONE!" I would be much happier

so what's your take?


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I think there is alot of potential to make him not one dimensional, I mean, he had alot of resentment to the emperor, probably more than anyone else in the cosmos in the begining of the great crusade. 

He could easily struggle with the whole "should i do this?" but more than anything, would Angron agree to throw his lot in with someone else? As in, would Angron accept that he even "needed" help from chaos, he could just turn round and say "no thanks khorne, infact, im gonna beat you up before the emperor" 

Im phrasing this really badly, but just because you arnt a fan of the emperor doesnt mean you are going to throw your lot in with some heebee geebee magic daemon.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

i agree, there is alot of potential for that, im just wondering whether or not it'll happen. i mean its just khorne and angron always frustrated me for being one dimentional like that.


could anyone see a complete re-write similar to alpharius for him being possible?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Some points to explore in my humble opinion: 

*Descent into rage*
If I'm not mistaken, Angron receives some of his aggression-boosting implants as a slave gladiator. He then subjects himself to further surgery after being kidnapped by the Emperor. He gives himself completely to his rage after siding with Chaos. I think there should be a step-by-step progression, a gradual descent into frothing rage. Each additional nerve-implant should be a blow against his sanity, until the combined effect finally shatters and reforms his mind into a cauldron of rage. 

*Resentment toward the Emperor *
Angron's personality is twisted by his anger and resentment toward the Emperor. We know from Angron's unwillingness to abandon his fellow gladiators that he values honour and loyalty above all. By whisking Angron away from the battlefield, the Emperor denies him the honour of dying with his comrades. Understandably, Angron is very bitter about the whole affair. Angron should be haunted by the thought that his comrades may have believed he had abandoned them. Angron's time as a slave and the brotherhood among the slaves should be explored. That way, when the Emperor snatches him from his comrades, the scene will have a much greater emotional impact on readers. 

*Perfection defiled*
The primarchs are near-perfect creations of the God Emperor. Readers should lament the wasted potential of a lobotomized primarch. It is a supreme tragedy that Angron falls into the hands of slavers who tamper with and sully the mind of a demi-god. With his aggression-boosting nerve-implants, Angron should have a split and unstable personality. Thus there should still be glimmers of a noble and intelligent core, especially before his fall to Chaos. Lucid moments of nobility and intelligence should be sprinkled here and there to highlight his lost potential. Readers should wonder what a different primarch Angron would have been had fate not been so cruel.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Some points to explore in my humble opinion:
> 
> *Perfection defiled*
> The primarchs are near-perfect creations of the God Emperor. The reader should come to understand the wasted potential of a lobotomized primarch. It is a tragedy that Angron falls into the hands of slavers who tamper with and sully the mind of a demi-god. With his aggression-boosting nerve-implants, Angron should have a split and unstable personality. Nevertheless, there should still be a core of nobility and intelligence, especially before his fall to Chaos. Lucid moments of nobility and intelligence should be sprinkled here and there to highlight his lost potential, to make the reader wonder what a different primarch Angron would have been had fate not been so cruel.


While I agree in principle with your point, IMO Night Haunter doesn't have any core of nobility and therefore what happened to his as no-one directly tampered with it. Without an explanation of what happened to Night Haunter as well a similar explanation of Angron would be weakened IMO. Therefore I hope they do both. :biggrin:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I've always viewed him as one of the primarchs that would have been better off had the Emperor never found him. Maybe he should have just died with this comrades or even miraculously fought their way out and survived. Like Curze I think his fall began with the Emperor's entrance into his life. I don't think there's anything one dimensional about that.


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## Agarwaen (Oct 8, 2011)

interesting thread. not big into Angron personally, just feel like they ran out of ideas


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> While I agree in principle with your point, IMO Night Haunter doesn't have any core of nobility and therefore what happened to his as no-one directly tampered with it. Without an explanation of what happened to Night Haunter as well a similar explanation of Angron would be weakened IMO. Therefore I hope they do both. :biggrin:


well ADB describes Night Haunter as a once noble warrior prince (or something like that) in Savage Weapons


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> well ADB describes Night Haunter as a once noble warrior prince (or something like that) in Savage Weapons


Fair point but apart from this info, we've never been given any examples of it. The only info we've ever been given on Night Haunter is of a master of manipulating emotions in humans (and Space Marines and even a Primarch). We've never seen him take a noble action in any of the fluff that I can think of.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Fair point but apart from this info, we've never been given any examples of it. The only info we've ever been given on Night Haunter is of a master of manipulating emotions in humans (and Space Marines and even a Primarch). We've never seen him take a noble action in any of the fluff that I can think of.


Sorry what? What was the first thing he said to the big old E when he met him? something along the lines of "My name is Night Haunter and I know exactly what you intend for me"? Maybe I am miss informed but from what we can gather from him, not only saying this but also letting the assassin kill him when he knew she was coming, we can determine that he was only a complete monster because he knew that was what the emperor needed, that he knew that it was how he was going to die for decades before hand. 

If you ask me, the two most noble and honourable people in the entire 40k universe are Night Haunter and Magnus, both saw their doom coming and both destroyed their own defences. Magnus only copped out at the last second because his beloved sons shouldnt pay for his sins ... yeah they did technically but at least they werent all butchered by the sisters of silence.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I've never found his fall to be as interesting as his rise. "After Desh'ea" from Tales of Heresy really shed a lot of light on a formerly-one-note character, and I enjoyed it immensely. Really, Angron was always poised to fall. His shame at being forced to abandon his comrades, his fury of the Emperor, his mistrust of the "highrider" Imperium, all of this made him easy prey for Horus and the Blood God.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I think it'd be interesting to see how Angron fell in a little bit more detail, mainly because it'd be a chance for us to learn a little bit more about Khorne as well. It'd be a chance for GW to add a few more interesting facets to both their personalities (maybe explore the more martial aspect of the Blood God, maybe show Angron coming up against certain enemies that can only be defeated by working alongside daemons, etc)


And is there any chance we can just...not discuss Night Haunter? I'm so damn tired of hearing about how awesome/shitty he was.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

Honestly, I think Mortarion's fall is currently the least explored/interesting. Even Flight of the Eisenstein gives us very little info besides the fact that Horus convinced him that a "new age" ruled by the strong was coming. C'mon Morty!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

SonOfStan said:


> And is there any chance we can just...not discuss Night Haunter? I'm so damn tired of hearing about how awesome/shitty he was.


seconded, but so far I've mostly only heard NL/NH [email protected]


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

daxxglax said:


> Honestly, I think Mortarion's fall is currently the least explored/interesting. Even Flight of the Eisenstein gives us very little info besides the fact that Horus convinced him that a "new age" ruled by the strong was coming. C'mon Morty!


Agreed we need more on Mortarion.

On topic though, sometimes you need a one dimensional but imo rather cool nutter to contrast against the others. I love Angron the crazy single-minded berserker, long may he live. :laugh:


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> I love Angron the crazy single-minded berserker, long may he live. :laugh:


but its just so bland! ugh. things like this bug me haha


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'd like to see some light shed on why the Emperor acted the way he did. He could have aided Angron with extra troops, or he could even have gone to fight with him; these actions might have lessened Angron's reaction to being taken away. It seems like there must have been a good reason for the Emperor tp act as he did, but what is it?
Did he act so, seeming, rashl;y because he saw how one of his sons had been defiled and wished to try to fix him? Did he see that allowing any Imperial action on that world, even loosing the War Hounds to fight with their Sire, would have some devestating long-term consequences? Was there some other reason that had him pressed for time, or even in danger/having to guard the new Imperium, that meant that he had no time to act in any other way than how he did?
As for leaving Angron, maybe he realised that nothing he could do was going to help. All he was doing was making his son more angry, and without being able to fix him it might be that he felt emotion for the first time in millenia. Someone he had poured the very essence of himself into was irreprably damaged and turned against him; how would an immortal being cope with feeling sadness, frustration and despair after so long in control?

GFP


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I figure maybe it was a protective-dad-instinct kinda thing. I imagine the Emperor was a little dismayed to see his savage son hanging out with a bunch of thugs and bandits holed up on a mountain. Sort of a "Son I do not approve of these friends of yours, get in the car NOW."


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

daxxglax said:


> I figure maybe it was a protective-dad-instinct kinda thing. I imagine the Emperor was a little dismayed to see his savage son hanging out with a bunch of thugs and bandits holed up on a mountain. Sort of a "Son I do not approve of these friends of yours, get in the car NOW."


Yeah but in the car dad should at least talk to you and try to explain why he doesn't like your friends. Instead of doing what the Emperor did, which is dump him somewhere with a lot of guys just like his friends (only less awesome) and then start yelling at him to do stuff.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Gotta agree. As far as the Angron story goes, I'd like to see why the Emperor allowed a regime that had enslaved,mutilated,and exploited his son for entertainment continue to exist. I've said it from the beginning that Angron was never given a reason to be loyal to the Emperor. It's like he shows up, sees what's happened and just says "Whatever let's go." That's got to be heart breaking for a son to see his father not give a shit about everything that's happened to him. For all that bullshit talk of liberation, it just shows that everything Curze said was right. It was about conquering and Angron's planet wasn't worth the effort apparently.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> i agree, there is alot of potential for that, im just wondering whether or not it'll happen. i mean its just khorne and angron always frustrated me for being one dimentional like that.
> 
> 
> could anyone see a complete re-write similar to alpharius for him being possible?


Oh, yeah, I can sorta see it.

Ahem.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Oh, yeah, I can sorta see it.
> 
> Ahem.


Awesome.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

To be honest, I just don't see why everyone has to have a complicated fall from Grace. If anything Angron's fall is the most refreshing because it doesn't involve any complicated circumstances.

Angron was thrown into the Arena's, was expecting to die in the Arena's / with his men and his "Timely" save from Grace pissed him off. His psycho surgery just enhanced his natural aggressiveness and thirst for battle, I don't see how he lost any of his cunning or intellect in doing so. Instead his energies were just focused into killing. He was a weapon of war that was tuned to do nothing but kill and thirst for battle. The Emperor then further pissed him off by telling him he couldn't be like how he was built - despite the fact the Emperor could have probably treated him.

Ultimately Khorne provided the neat little outlett for him. Once Horus showed up and went "Yeah this guy likes killing, wants you to kill stuff, will make you even better at killing stuff" he didn't have to sell it any more. I mean Khorne pretty much was waiting at the "Arrivals" section of the Eye of Terror to turn him into a DP. 

Simple, Beautiful and I hope It never changes.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Angron hates the Emperor for abandoning his comrades, then joins the Chaos faction least caring of the survival of one's comrades.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

randian said:


> Angron hates the Emperor for abandoning his comrades, then joins the Chaos faction least caring of the survival of one's comrades.


Because by that point Angron doesn't care about his comrades. Think of it this way: You struggle alongside a small group for a decade, learning their names and fighting styles and eventually leading them in a rebellion against your oppressive master. Eventually you get cornered and it looks like you're going to die, so you resign yourself to dying alongside these friends you have made. Instead, you are ripped from them and forced to abandon them, in the moment they need you most, by a man who calls himself your father. I'm guessing that's gonna leave you with some pretty serious commitment issues. It's likely that Angron never saw the WE as comrades, certainly not in the same sense as his gladiator friends. They were his followers, his soldiers but not his comrades.

Also, Khorne values martial ability which Angron has in spades. So while the Emperor doesn't care (or at least appears not to care) about Angron's abilities or his comrades, Khorne at least cares about part of him.


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