# Thoughts on Betrayer *minor spoilers*



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I just finished reading Betrayer..

I am impressed, it is a masterfully written book that goes deeply into the heads of the heads of the World Eaters and really getting to know their nature and behavior. How they damned themselves in willingly copying their broken Primarch and hammering the Butchers Nails into their head to try reach the bond of brotherhood all other legions effortlessly had with their genesires, but which was denied the children of the broken Primarch. His backstory is also expounded upon, revealing hitherto unknown details as Angron's lifestory comes full circle. You come to understand his choices and why he did them.



Interesting tidbits involves the WE librarians and their relationship to the rest of the Legion, and the sheer incredible power of Angron shown with a breathtaking feat of strenght early in the book. The book is a clear followup to The First Heretic, Battle for the Abyss and Know No Fear, given the significant Word Bearers presence. Argel Tal featuring heavilly till his personal plot sees its suprising conclusion. Erebus is such a schemer! The book also revolves heavilly around Khárn, in particular seeing how he picked up a significant piece of weaponry.


Even minor spoilers can be tagged please.  

-Serpa


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I have not read this yet, however given that the discussion is in relation to a particular book it may sit better in the BL section.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Ah, I thought it was enough by warning in the title of the thread, my apologies.

All in all I found it one of ADB's best writtings yet, and if this is the level of writting he is going to use for The Master of Mankind, it will be one incredible book. It will certainly be -QUITE- difficult for many other HH authors to be on a comparable level. But with The First Heretic and now Betrayer ADB have shown he is capable of carrying the Horus Heresy.


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Ah, I thought it was enough by warning in the title of the thread, my apologies.
> 
> All in all I found it one of ADB's best writtings yet, and if this is the level of writting he is going to use for The Master of Mankind, it will be one incredible book. It will certainly be -QUITE- difficult for many other HH authors to be on a comparable level. But with The First Heretic and now Betrayer ADB have shown he is capable of carrying the Horus Heresy.


Can you give a more in depth review of what you've read so far? SPOILE ME LIKE ONE OF YOUR FRENCH GIRLS.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Ok, heres a deeper spoiler of the book, properly tagged this time:




The book opens up with the combined army of the Word Bearers and the World Eaters ready to assault the fortress world of Armatura. One of the powerful worlds of Guiliman's empire of 500 worlds. One out of many other Word Bearer fleets striking across it It is heavilly implied that these assaults is what causes the severe decimation of the system to the shadow of itself, the Ultramar system is in present day 40k.

It is quite interesting to see how the World Eaters are portrayed in comparision to the other legions, how badly the Butchers Nails are affecting them, and the nails are one of the central themes in the book. They have an unusual sensitivty to psykers, pulsing pure agony through the heads of all nailbearers when near one. Also, the World Eater librarians, the surviving ones are the only ones without the nails. For it was discovered that hammering the nails into the head of a psyker, made their powers go out of control. Spectacularilly so. So eventually the remainder of the librarians was commanded not to get them. But they would forever be outcast from the brotherhoods of their brethren, giving the effect of their presence. Yet the Librarians had a continuing function to give the primarch brief respites from the pain that was killing him and dragging him back from the serenity he so desperately craved, where he forgot himself, even his name and whom he was, back into the waking world of war.

But Lorgar have a plan for Angron, wishing to save his brother from himself, to counter what cannot be undone. His plans requiring the ruination of Guiliman's empire as he grows increasingly into the role as the archpriest of chaos. Even putting himself in danger and gaining the grudging respect of Angron, when the primarch learns his brother had been feverishly trying to dig him out of a collapse, where he had lost himself. Only recovering thanks to the WE librarians in time to save the plasma immolated Lorgar from being stepped on by a warhound titan. Displaying a truly titanic strenght as he moves under the descending foot of the titan and denies it. Muscles snapping and tearing as he holds it up under great duress, while shouting to Lorgar to get clear. Holding the titan long enough for Lorgar to recover and having friendly titans handle the stomping warhound and allowing him to get clear as well. 

Later scenes involves the World Eaters facing the Space Wolves in a conflict that had been scourged from Imperial records and the contrasts between the two legions couldnt be more striking as Angron faces down Leman Russ as blood flows in one of the first engagements between astartes pre heresy.



But if you really want to know about the true meat of the book, read on..




Lorgar's plan comes to a cresendo when he leads Angron back to the world of Nuceria, a place he had sworn to never to return to. The place of the Primarch's landing and early years finally revealed. Some having believed that the Emperor obscurred it from him, the truth being simpler, he could not face what the high-rider overlords had done to him and the last stand he had been denied, but Lorgar's insistence drew him back there. Great and is his volcanic rage, when Angron discovers that the ruling family that had enslaved him, still ruled the world with the blessing of the Imperium, and he orders the death of everyone living there - pained to hear that everyone thought he had fled the last stand. But before they can complete their planetary murder, the vengeance fleet of the ultramarines arrive. Landing greatly mauled. But Guiliman faces off against Angron and Lorgar in a 3way melee, holding them at bay. But Lorgar completes his symphony and Angron is immolated in warp lightning as the ultramar sector burns, all focused on him as the conduit. It is at that points the remaining elements of the war hounds finally makes their move, they could deal with the madness of their primarch, but to corrupt him was too much to bear. Nearly overpowering Lorgar, they are swatted aside by the transformed Daemon prince of Khorne, Angron becomes. Lorgar had found the only way he could save his dying brother. Guiliman, badly beaten, manages to extricate himself, the day lost to the traitors.


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Ok, heres a deeper spoiler of the book, properly tagged this time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!



Could you tell me more about the Space Wolves/World Eater stuff?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Basically its the stark contrast in philosophies between them, and Angron calling out Russ on some of the more hypocritical points, before they come to blows. While Russ is clearly on the defensive, having hoped to drag Angron back to Terra with him. Angron exploiting the fact that Russ wasnt allowed to kill him as he beats the Wolf King.

Kharn sums it up quite well why the War Hounds renamed themselves. Once they were loosened, they could not be recalled or reined in. They were the ultimate sanction. Whereas it was a mystery to him why the space wolves called themselves wolves. They were the collared pets of the Emperor, comming to heel when he called for them.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Could you in detail describe the fight between Angron and Russ? Does Russ horrifically lose?

Also could you in detail describe the fight between Lorgar, Angron, and Gulli? I was surprised to see Gulli was so gifted in martial combat to be able to keep at bay two primarchs, one being one of the best hand to hand fighters, while the other being the second strongest psyker out of all the primarchs (magnus).


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Damn! So Angron becomes a Daemon Prince and even before that he has the power to hold off a Titan from crushing Lorgar


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Heres a glimpse from the fight between the Wolf King and Angron




‘You’re wrong.’ Angron spoke in a hoarse snarl, husky not from anger but from the weight of emotion. ‘You’re wrong, it wasn’t in the rain; it was at sunset on a day already darkened by the burning city behind us. My blade broke, but it didn’t matter. I pulled his chainsword from his fists, and broke it in my hands. We fell into the mud, brawling. We’d both known that fight would end up on the ground. I had him, Lorgar. My boot on his throat, at the very end. I stood above him at last, and Russ…’ …and Russ had to crawl away, fanged teeth clenched, breathing spit as much as breath. Strings of it tumbled from his cracked lips with each rasping exhalation. 

Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight.




And Guiliman's prowess..


He is an easy match for Lorgar, pummeling him with his massive fists and driving him back, effortlessly moving to counter Angron when he enters the fray. But giving Lorgar time to work on his spell, and as Angron's rage rises, its over as Lorgar gets it off and Guiliman is sent crawling to the ground. He could definitely have handled either of them on their own in a conventional fight, possibly both at once, but Lorgar's magicks unleashed was the turning point.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Interesting that Gulli is so skilled in combat, able to beat either Lorgar or Angron one versus one, and even two versus one stalemate. 

Yet Russ was not able to defeat angron one versus one, must have been a bad match up for russ's fighting style or tactics.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lux said:


> Interesting that Gulli is so skilled in combat, able to beat either Lorgar or Angron one versus one, and even two versus one stalemate.
> 
> Yet Russ was not able to defeat angron one versus one, must have been a bad match up for russ's fighting style or tactics.p


Granted Russ was playing defensively and not giving his best, trying to staunch Angron's rage and earning a beating for it. In comparrision, Guiliman was driven by cold and focused hate for what Lorgar had done to him and his empire.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I wonder why Russ didn't give it his all


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lux said:


> I wonder why Russ didn't give it his all




Because he was sent to get Angron under control and try to make him see reason, instead of antagonizing him, and failing at it.




another thing I forgot to mention from the book, have a teaser..


Another previously unknown perpetual eventually makes his entrance, moving in the shadows. Clearly related to the Cabal and making mentions to a John he knows. I am sure his plot will be expounded further upon in later books as he in this book tries to get involved with a quite important character from The First Heretic - whom was thought long gone. Not going to reveal more about that one! *grin*


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I think it's interesting that the canon fluff about the Ultras (before Fear to Tread anyway) held the Imperium together after the Heresy because they were almost untouched by it?

Untouched? They lose tens of thousands at Calth (not sure of the exact figure - I'm sure someone can supply it) and it sounds like they lose a lot more here. They're also losing a lot of their recruiting base as well if they only have 8 worlds left out of 500. 

In my opinion this sounds like a bit better explanation why they couldn't go to defend Terra as they had to sort out their smashed mini empire and rebuild their forces and apparently did so well enough to hold the Imperium together once the Heresy was over.

Do we know if the story about the writing of and use of the Codex Astartes (can't remember the name of the short story it was in) was set before or after Betrayer? If it was set before do we see any evidence of it being used?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

That short you are refering to, is definitely set pre-Betrayer and the Word Bearers betrayal. But no hints to the Codex as the book is set from traitor pov.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> That short you are refering to, is definitely set pre-Betrayer and the Word Bearers betrayal. But no hints to the Codex as the book is set from traitor pov.


Cheers


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Hmm, so after the war between the Word BEarers, world eaters, and the Ultras how many worlds and marines do they have left?

I've seen from some posts as little as 40-80k marines left after their war with the two traitor legions, and only 8 worlds?

Still Gulli being able to effortlessly handle post Warp-Enhanced Lorgar (who effortlessly restrained Horus in a confrontation, and psychically banished magnus from the meeting) in combat, and effortlessly handle Angron puts him (gulli) in a new light for me.

Makes it more believable how he was (if he truly did) kill Alpharius in combat, and why he engaged a daemon primarch (Fulgrim) in combat.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lorgar explains its his plan with the warp sorcery is to completely sever the ultramar subsector from the rest of the imperium, and only He will know the way out of the flames. Theres refered to be a LOT of word bearer strikeforces going on to pummel ultramar, to weave that song of suffering that he directs to come to a climax at Nuceria. But theres no depiction of the supposed catastrophic levels of damage it heralds to the ultramar realm. But likely the Mark of Calth book will reveal that. Guiliman himself speaks of the Mark of Calth that he wears, pointing out the latice of damaged skin in his face from the void exposure he was exposed to in Know No Fear.

Finally Lorgar's own fleet have a LOT of firepower, and its revealed he built not one, but TWO sister ships for the Furious Abyss, which is refered to as Zadkiel's folly.




Edit: Regarding Guiliman


He holds his own in combat against the two primarchs, but once the heavy warp sorcery comes out, its too much for him to cope with. Just look at his bout with Kor Phaeron in KNF. Definitely seems weak to warp magicks, though Lorgar does chastise Erebus for even thinking that Guiliman can be turned, too loyal and perfect. Though not entirely, perhaps the chaos gods have been more subtle with him to fuel his ambition. Just look at the whole Imperium Secundus plot he have set in motion in earlier books. No reference to it in this one tho.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I suppose some primarchs are inherently more resilient versus warp margiks than others are, such as Russ in his bout with Magnus.

Though it seems similarly some are much more proficient at normal physical combat, which it seems Gulli is one of the best at.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I at least don't see an invinsible Guilliman. Didn't Angron get crushed by a titan? And Lorgar is using his spells. It seems like a fair fight if you look at it like that. A fresh primarch against two primarchs in a weak state.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I haven't read the book but I think Russ was just being defensive and not going all out where as Gulliiman does surprise me..I can understand him taking on Lorgar but Angron? 

in "In Deliverance Lost", Corax admits to himself that he would have a slight chance against Angron.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I at least don't see an invinsible Guilliman. Didn't Angron get crushed by a titan? And Lorgar is using his spells. It seems like a fair fight if you look at it like that. A fresh primarch against two primarchs in a weak state.


Angron was fairly fresh, if rather degenerated at the point of the 3way fight. The Butchers Nails slowly killing him since implantation. His geneforged body showing signs of failing. Why Lorgar was trying to 'save' him before it was too late.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The extermination of the "Mass Numbers" of Ultramarines is a good thing. However, I don't think it will go to far. Matt Ward doesn't seem like someone who would like incorporating that idea. Everyone chapter wants to be them and all that crap. 

Essentially what would have to happen now is that the Ultramarines would be invincible during "The Great Scouring." While every other chapter just sucks.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> The extermination of the "Mass Numbers" of Ultramarines is a good thing. However, I don't think it will go to far. Matt Ward doesn't seem like someone who would like incorporating that idea. Everyone chapter wants to be them and all that crap.
> 
> Essentially what would have to happen now is that the Ultramarines would be invincible during "The Great Scouring." While every other chapter just sucks.


Regarding the Ultras, we know that all the Ultramarines and their successors came together in a legion style operation to purge Tsagulsa after the Horus Heresy, and they had quite significant numbers there. Definitely Roboute's logistical talent at work there to recuperate the catastrophic losses of the Heresy. Probably his final legacy, Fulgrim's blade stealing away any further ambition and leaving them unfulfilled.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Angron was fairly fresh, if rather degenerated at the point of the 3way fight. The Butchers Nails slowly killing him since implantation. His geneforged body showing signs of failing. Why Lorgar was trying to 'save' him before it was too late.


Quite the impressive feat, which only further reinforces my view that a primarchs opinion of how powerful they are in combat means little to nothing when it comes to the actual fighting.

Corax stated he was confident in his abilities, and could have easily killed Curze but died to angron effortlessly?

Yet here we see Gulli fight off a relatively fresh/unharmed Angron, while simultaneously bashing Lorgar back.

Just goes to show the whole tier system of which primarch is best in combat is inherently silly, regardless of which primarch thinks others are weaker than they or stronger.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lux said:


> Quite the impressive feat, which only further reinforces my view that a primarchs opinion of how powerful they are in combat means little to nothing when it comes to the actual fighting.
> 
> Corax stated he was confident in his abilities, and could have easily killed Curze but died to angron effortlessly?
> 
> ...



But as said earlier, the warp power of Lorgar decided the fight for good and guili began to get severely battered and retreated.

Edit: One thing to point out, is that the Ultras have significant experience from taming and forging their empire of 500 worlds. One of the greatest acomplishments among the primarchs.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> And Guiliman's prowess..
> 
> 
> He is an easy match for Lorgar, pummeling him with his massive fists and driving him back, effortlessly moving to counter Angron when he enters the fray. But giving Lorgar time to work on his spell, and as Angron's rage rises, its over as Lorgar gets it off and Guiliman is sent crawling to the ground. He could definitely have handled either of them on their own in a conventional fight, possibly both at once, but Lorgar's magicks unleashed was the turning point.






Perhaps ADB is rehabilitating Bobby's image after his thrashing at the hands of Kor Phaeron


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Perhaps ADB is rehabilitating Bobby's image after his thrashing at the hands of Kor Phaeron




He certainly did better in this fight, yes, since it started with melee and had both motivation and plenty of room to clobber the opposition with his fists. In comparission Kor Phaeron got the drop on him with warp magicks right from the beginning.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

how the UM as a legion portrayed ? blue punching bags ?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

piemelke said:


> how the UM as a legion portrayed ? blue punching bags ?




They make the invaders pay in blood for every inch of territory gained.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Something quite vital people seem to be missing out on the Russ/Angron encounter



Angron is no doubt one of, if not the best close combat fighter of the Primarchs. So he might have won anyway, but it's still vitally important to note, Russ wasn't fighting to kill, he wasn't allowed to kill Angron, where as Angron had no such restraints. More importantly though. As Russ and Angron fought, the VI Legion surrounded Angron and Russ, when Russ crawled away from Angron he pointed out to him that they could kill him and his legion was doing nothing to stop it.

The whole point of the battle was Russ trying to teach Angron as lesson in the hope he and his legion would change. The World Eaters were winning the fight against the wolves as they were fighting simply to kill. The Wolves however were fighting to kill Angron and managed to outmanoeuvre them to do so, they fought for the objective, to kill the Primarch, go for the throat as it were as a Wolf would do. And his legion did nothing to prevent it, the only ones trying to save Angron were those that either did not have the butchers nails or weren't so badly effected by them. With this point proven, Russ then called the retreat.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Have not finish reading the book but love it. It goes into depth into Angron and better explains why he turned traitor. 

I was never a world eater fan thinking they were nothing but mindless berserkers but can't help feel some sympathy to them . 

If anything I found myself liking Kharn more and more and wonder what if there legion and Angron did not suffer from the butcher nail. What kind of legion would have they become instead of..


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Something quite vital people seem to be missing out on the Russ/Angron encounter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This explains quite a bit, I just wonder how it would have been if Russ and the wolves were fighting to kill Angron instead of attempting to save him. However I suppose the story already explained that outcome with the wolves surrounding Angron and being within a kill range position, thus Angron would have been killed.

I guess it also means that even if Russ isn't superior to Angron in melee, if Russ had been fighting to kill it likely would have been more even and the wolves legion would have just killed once in position.

Does anyone wonder what aspect of the Emperor Angron originally represented, or was designed to represent? I often wonder this about most about of the traitor legions. Curze I see as the Emperor's aspect of Fairness, Justice, equality, however it was taken to an extreme. Angron was perhaps his perseverance (maybe better fits Mortarion), or his sense of honor, but that doesn't seem to fit as well.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Lux said:


> This explains quite a bit, I just wonder how it would have been if Russ and the wolves were fighting to kill Angron instead of attempting to save him. However I suppose the story already explained that outcome with the wolves surrounding Angron and being within a kill range position, thus Angron would have been killed.
> 
> I guess it also means that even if Russ isn't superior to Angron in melee, if Russ had been fighting to kill it likely would have been more even and the wolves legion would have just killed once in position.
> 
> Does anyone wonder what aspect of the Emperor Angron originally represented, or was designed to represent? I often wonder this about most about of the traitor legions. Curze I see as the Emperor's aspect of Fairness, Justice, equality, however it was taken to an extreme. Angron was perhaps his perseverance (maybe better fits Mortarion), or his sense of honor, but that doesn't seem to fit as well.


Angron is clearly the Emperor's ruthless aspect, the end justifying the means. And it clearly causes great friction with Angron, because he knows he is naught but a tool for the Emperor and have been deliberately threading the line of being useful for a long time just out of spite. All was Horus did was to offer him freedom from restraint, that he not even had to pretend to serve a goal anymore, than slaughter for its own sake.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Even before the butchers nails incident you do you believe he was still the aspect of ruthlessness? 

Also why didn't Emperor remove the Nails from Angron when he found him, or why did The Emperor or Angron not remove them post of being found? Surely the Emperor must have known they were harming him?

Also were they truly killing him? His primarch physiology, and warp powers were not able to prevent them from killing him? Or was it merely Lorgar using the excuse of the nails killing Angron, as a way for him to turn him into a daemon? Also would this not make Angron the first of the traitor primarchs to be a daemon prince?

Does this also mean that the battle for Terra Angron was assaulting the palace as a daemon prince?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

appearently it was already too late for that point. Primarchs mature super fast, just taking a few years from infant to full growth. When he had them jabbed into his skull, they remapped the cartography of his brain as he grew up. Afaik I recall he was caught fairly young and forcibly enslaved. Theres a scene in the book where Malcador is looking over the sleeping Angron, appearently examining him. And WE librarians whom had accepted the nails had their powers go out of control from the nails, was offered to have them removed or choose death. Possible death, versus certain death. All of them died.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The planet must have been very advanced in technology to be able to forcibly enslave a primarch to such a degree, seeing as how Angron killed a squad of Eldar as a infant. 

So the butchers nails, is there a picture of them? I mean how large and intrusive were they?

I just find it odd that in all the Emperor's power and technology he couldn't help his son, also how long did Angron have to live if he hadn't ascended to a daemon?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Debatable as to whether Angron or Fulgrim was the first daemon Primarch


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Debatable as to whether Angron or Fulgrim was the first daemon Primarch


You forgot Magnus the Red, he ascended shortly after the razing of Prospero. His ill fated message shattering the defenses of Terra, with the double whammy of the awful news of the death of Ferrus at Istvaan.

id say for the big four primarchs its: Magnus, Fulgrim, Angron and Mortarion


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Brother Lucian, 
Not sure if I agree about Gulliman doing well against Angron. Guilliman was fighting well against Lorgar and possible could of won but Angron stepped in. 

Angron was beating Guilliman back ..I don't know how to do a spoiler alert but Lorgar started his mystic stuff that..changed Angron


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm Magnus is an odd one though, I don't think even now that he's a daemon Primarch yet, It's more that his mind is just free from his destroyed body. He still doesn't even believe in the chaos gods as gods yet, hard to believe if he was daemon prince.

Fulgrim and Angron seem to happen much at the same time though. Need to have a look through both books to properly work out a rough timeline.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah the confrontation is a lot more complicated than the earlier posts suggest, it had a moral stand point in it.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Did Angron's form change much when ascending to daemonhood? It seems most of the primarchs changed massively in regards to form.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He was still fighting while transforming and it was difficult to make out what was happening.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Oh I meant did Magnus's form change much at all, did he even ascend to Daemonhood? Or does he still possess his physical body?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I've just finished Angel Exterminatus and considering Perturabo's opinion on Fulgrim I'm surprised he becomes a daemon prince as well later on.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's not clear with Magnus



There's a point when Lorgar points out that Magnus's might not be put on his real face, like the Emperor who can changes his appearance, so can Magnus. Magnus isn't really there, he's like a spectator during this book, he pops up to talk to Lorgar and looks almost real at one stage I think it says. Magnus hasn't "sided" with the traitors as of yet, he's not formally joined them but he's close to joining


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

With Magnus his form is like spirit like I think. Where as Angron is kind of like a massive blood thirstier. I think part of it maybe because of the Chaos Gods that they are associated with. 

I don't want to post too many spoilers but get the book it answers allot of the question regarding the world eaters and angron .And at the same time opens up new questions. 

When it comes to the primarchs fighting people will debate about whose the toughest. To me the fight between Angron and Russ..Russ was not fighting all out so it's hard to say who would of won.



Guilliman I think will beat Lorgar in a one on one fight even with Logar mystic power but Angron I think will beat Guilliman but at the same time re-reading that fight melee it's possible that Angron was transforming in middle of the fight and might explain his extra strength ..either that or Angron is just stronger.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm not sure if this was answered but this made me think allot about the Emperor...decision with Angron. 



Lorgar ask Angron why didn't the Emperor help him at Desh’ea. The Emperor could of sent the War Hounds to aid Angron in overthrowing the high riders but the Emperor did not get involve but instead denied Angron death with his fellow slave pit fighters by transporting him away. 
I just felt sympathy to Angron. If anything he was very loyal and I think he did die in a spiritual sense on Desh’ea . I wonder why didn't the Emperor just help his son. It might of bonded them . 



I felt that Angron had a less a chance than other primarchs which explains why he turn traitor so easily. 

Other primarchs at least to me was all about their EGOS' . Their egos got hurt and that's part of the core reason why they turned traitor along with chaos whispering in their ears but I think ..I think they had choices but failed at it. Where as Angron did have a choice to which Russ tried to show him but he failed at. But I feel that Angron just didn't understand ..but when Angron face against Guilliman I was surprise to the things he said. 



angron said some profound stuff to Guilliman in their fight. Angron went on about the difference in how they were raise. One in the slave pits fighting while the other raise in a civilize landscape . Angron was saying things about the difference in how they grew up and how and why they become the way they are. 


In some ways this reminds me of someone saying I grew up in a poor shitty environment that's why I'm like this. At first I was sympathetic to Angron but thinking about he had a choice too....but I feel that he had a handicapp and could not make the right decision.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

kwak76;1319191
[spoiler said:


> angron said some profound stuff to Guilliman in their fight. Angron went on about the difference in how they were raise. One in the slave pits fighting while the other raise in a civilize landscape . Angron was saying things about the difference in how they grew up and how and why they become the way they are. [/spoiler]
> 
> In some ways this reminds me of someone saying I grew up in a poor shitty environment that's why I'm like this. At first I was sympathetic to Angron but thinking about he had a choice too....but I feel that he had a handicapp and could not make the right decision.


Extremely similar to Deliverance Lost when Corax thinks about the similarities and differences between Curze and himself. Both grew up in the darkness but one was shown compassion and civilization. Nature vs nurture


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Something quite vital people seem to be missing out on the Russ/Angron encounter
> 
> 
> 
> Angron is no doubt one of, if not the best close combat fighter of the Primarchs. So he might have won anyway, but it's still vitally important to note, Russ wasn't fighting to kill, he wasn't allowed to kill Angron, where as Angron had no such restraints. More importantly though. As Russ and Angron fought, the VI Legion surrounded Angron and Russ, when Russ crawled away from Angron he pointed out to him that they could kill him and his legion was doing nothing to stop it.




Actually, we don't know whether Russ was fighting to kill in the heat of the moment. After all, Russ did charge Angron in a fit of rage. It's just as possible that Russ would've killed Angron had Angron not been so damned good at CC. 

Note that Angron did not plant an axe in Russ' back as Russ was crawling away. Was Angron not fighting to kill?


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

It seems like Lorgar was a bitch and got his ass kicked on the regular. If you remember Corax kicked his ass with in an inch of his life until Konrad stepped in to save him and then chastised him for being a bitch. 

No shock that big blue would slap him around effortlessly. I really want to read this book now I just hate these Black Library only hard backs. I want to run over to my book store and buy a copy damn it.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

MontytheMighty,

Regarding the fight between Russ and Angron.


Angron is possible the better close combat fighter compared to Russ but Russ was the better leader . The Space wolves surrounded the primarchs and Russ could of have his space wolves shoot Angron and mortally wounding or killing him but decided not to. It's possible that the space wolves surrounding them is what stop Angron from impaling an axe on Russ back.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

if Russ was fighting to kill, then the whole point of that chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angron's insight - when he recognizes that Russ probably didn't even have authority to start a war against the XII Legion - is also moot as well.

Secondly, let there be no confusion. Guilliman and Lorgar were more or less evenly matched. The highlight of their battle is Lorgar's revelation that he had been wrong about his brother and that Roboute didn't hate him or hold him in contempt until he betrayed him.

When Angron enters the fray, both of his brothers suffered from wounds. Guilliman doesn't have to fight both of them at once. Lorgar gets into his ritual and Angron takes his rage out on Roboute. By the time that fight ends, Guilliman is beaten - he is on the ground, barely able to defend himself. Lorgar intervenes and ensures it ends just like the fight against Russ, because it's part of his ritual to turn Angron into a Daemon Primarch.


As far as "which Primarch is better", etc., remember that this is a topic that the author has repeatedly expressed frustration over. I think he would be the first to tell you that each fight could go differently, depending on the situation. I think he would also admit, though, that he absolutely wanted to demonstrate Angron's melee prowess and how his Butcher's Nails can make him such a juggernaut.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Horus lost to Russ, Russ loses to Angron, Corax theorizes that Horus is probably one of the only guys who can beat Angron in Deliverance Lost. See where this goes? You can literally trace who can beat who and it gets so convoluted it's dizzying. It's just like NFL teams. Anyone who follows football can tell you that on any given sunday anybody can lose to anyone. One teams steps up for whatever reason and takes the more obvious to win team.Same thing like fighting sports or any other sports. Same thing lik ethese guys. If anyone on this board believes that there's no way Leman Russ could kill Angron in a one on one deathmatch, then you obviously have never read much about his prowess in combat.

For this writer (who ultimately decides what happens) needed Russ to try and appeal to Angron instead of unleashing the full Rout against the World Eaters. Russ's mistake was thinking Angron cared that his legion was nothing more than a bunch of roving maniacs who didn't give a shit about him. Lorgar saw that the only way to save Angron was the same way Magnus had theorized to save his legion both times: by giving into Chaos.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Russ's mistake was thinking Angron cared that his legion was nothing more than a bunch of roving maniacs who didn't give a shit about him.


On the contrary, Russ knew perfectly well the vast majority of World Eaters didn't care enough to rescue him, that the exact lesson he was trying to teach Angron.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Lux said:


> The planet must have been very advanced in technology to be able to forcibly enslave a primarch to such a degree, seeing as how Angron killed a squad of Eldar as a infant.


Not only that, how did they get the Nails to work at all? They were designed for human brains (as they were the primary species being enslaved for the gladiatorial pits). A primarch's brain is arranged differently. One would expect that hammering the Nails into Angron's brain would reduce him to a drooling semi-corpse, not a mostly-functional warrior.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Is Angron's side of his transformation detailed?

It is interesting hearing Angron portray the Emperor as a slaver, when as a Daemon Prince he's far more a slave to Khorne than he ever was to the Emperor.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> if Russ was fighting to kill, then the whole point of that chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angron's insight - when he recognizes that Russ probably didn't even have authority to start a war against the XII Legion - is also moot as well.







Don't agree there...
during the duel, Russ could've been fighting to kill, especially taking into consideration how pissed off he was when he charged Angron

After being beaten, he could've regained his calm and decided to spare Angron.

...and if Angron was really that intent on killing Russ, why did he let him crawl away? Why not finish Russ right after he collapses?
 



> As far as "which Primarch is better", etc., remember that this is a topic that the author has repeatedly expressed frustration over.


Right...but surely the concept of "odds" is not absurd, especially in the context of a straightforward close combat duel. Angron isn't better in the sense that he's guaranteed to win against any other primarch every time. 

Angron is "better" in that he probably has a greater than 50% chance of beating most other primarchs in a straightforward melee duel...sort of like how the top-ranked sports team in a league might lose to the lowest-ranked team, but those odds are low, unless there are special circumstances (the top team has a lot of injured players or something like that) 

Similarly, the odds that any other primarch defeats Magnus in a psychic duel are really low, not impossible I suppose. 



kwak76 said:


> It's possible that the space wolves surrounding them is what stop Angron from impaling an axe on Russ back.




...yeah but he only realises that after he lets Russ crawl away a fair distance. Why does Angron let Russ crawl away at all if he's so intent on ending Russ?




Deadeye776 said:


> Horus lost to Russ


Source?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Deadeye's comment is from an article from White Dwarf I believe. There were five primarchs that bested Horus. Russ was one. 

I liked the book and it really was the jump the Heresy needed. The interactions between the primarchs is just so great, I look at _Angel Exterminatus_ and I go, "what the @#$%!" Seriously. The hatred and love between primarchs is clearly shown between the three primarchs. Honestly, ADB showed a strong bond between the primarchs that has failed to show in many of the previous novels. 

When we look at the Primarchs and their legions, we see how the World Eaters and Angron have a humanistic attitude towards their corruption. A lot having to do with brotherhood and honor. Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children were simply butchered with their rapid warped mentality.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> On the contrary, Russ knew perfectly well the vast majority of World Eaters didn't care enough to rescue him, that the exact lesson he was trying to teach Angron.


 I was saying that Russ's mistake was thinking that Angron cared. He knew what his situation was. Again, like the Night Lords primarch he was literally beyond saving. It seems he, like Magnus, was dependant on Chaos to save his life. Technically that's what happened. Depends on how you view Daemonhood. Angron never gave a shit about his legion even from the beginning. The Emperor royally screwed up in everyway when it came to Angron. He could have saved his rebellion but didn't. He could have destroyed the people who had mutilated his sons mind instead of keeping them in power. He also could have done something to help Angron's mind to either deal with or get healed from the Nails. All in all, I think since in Angron's mind the Empeorr never gave a shit about his son then neither should he.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Brilliant novel ADB great work mate. My opinion on the Russ/Angron duel, simple answer ''Russ's Lesson'' it is clearly stated at the start of chapter 17. Aside from that, Roboute hahahaha what a beast two on one for how ever long it lasted I didn't think he had the balls. Mad cunt lol

On a serious note though that's two ascended Primarchs now. Magnus half way and Lorgar more powerful then ever. All These players are present during the siege of Terra. There is going to be some serious loyalist ass kicking required to get the current cannon result at the end of the HH. 

P.S Vulkan must be in pretty bad shape. Cheers Angron.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I want to see a loyal primarch kick a daemon primarch's ass


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## alvin.adorno (Dec 18, 2012)

*deamon P*

In the old fluff A person didnt just give them self to chaos. They proved there worth and chaos gives them deamon hood or you could look at it as they take deamon hood for themselves. Fulgrim gave his body over to chaos, seeing as how the deamon later put his soul into a picture made out of shit and filth. Magnus was allways a deamon prince he just never openly claimed that he was. I forgot wich book but he never needed him body he chose a human form to make his brothers feel comfortable around him when he gets beaten by Russ he realizess that by sheding his human body he gives up the human paart ofhim self that is why he brooded over that crap and gave Arhiman his book.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Don't agree there...
> during the duel, Russ could've been fighting to kill, especially taking into consideration how pissed off he was when he charged Angron
> 
> After being beaten, he could've regained his calm and decided to spare Angron.


That's conjecture, though. More importantly, it's conjecture that renders the whole point of the scene and their final exchange moot.



> ...and if Angron was really that intent on killing Russ, why did he let him crawl away? Why not finish Russ right after he collapses?


Well, for one, because he is surrounded by Space Wolves. What's the win-loss here? For another, I, personally, am not convinced Angron was trying to kill Russ. We got very distinct impressions of how the Primarch and his World Eaters get when they succumb to the Nails. Angron was conversational before AND after the duel with Russ. Furthermore, neither Primarch technically began that battle.



> Right...but surely the concept of "odds" is not absurd, especially in the context of a straightforward close combat duel. Angron isn't better in the sense that he's guaranteed to win against any other primarch every time.
> 
> Angron is "better" in that he probably has a greater than 50% chance of beating most other primarchs in a straightforward melee duel...sort of like how the top-ranked sports team in a league might lose to the lowest-ranked team, but those odds are low, unless there are special circumstances (the top team has a lot of injured players or something like that)
> 
> Similarly, the odds that any other primarch defeats Magnus in a psychic duel are really low, not impossible I suppose.


That's not the point, though. The point is that each Primarch has his own strengths and weaknesses, and that every fight is situational. It's dependent on the specific factors that shape the fight. Does every battle come down to a straight up sword-fight? Does every battle come down to a duel of the minds? No, in both cases.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

If Russ wanted Angron dead - he would be dead (one way or another)...Snap from his fingers, and Angron get's one in the brains...
My God how some people misinterpret chapter called "Russ's lesson"...
Oooo it's like this:
1.Russ tries to subdue Angron without killing him
2.Angron is a tough cookie - resists,defeats Russ in DUEL/BRAWL
3.Russ crawles and STANDS UP (notice holes in the Angron's story,also Lorgar was correcting him about number of dead astartes and questioning with wonder)
4.Angron goes for his axe
5.100 bolters pointed in dumb r'tard
....Russ's lesson begins....
Funny but I know this fight would get twisted to the max (mosltly by haters)....and sadly,this is most discussed event from the whole book


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

DarthMarko said:


> If Russ wanted Angron dead - he would be dead (one way or another)...Snap from his fingers, and Angron get's one in the brains...
> My God how some people misinterpret chapter called "Russ's lesson"...
> Oooo it's like this:
> 1.Russ tries to subdue Angron without killing him
> ...


Its always cool to see to Primarchs duel it out. It will always be twisted. But I think its just fans having fun.

What I liked the most from the novel was the emotions that connected the primarchs. Even in corruption, Lorgar cared for Angron. We also see that Angron highly appreciates and respects honor. In a sense we also see the hate that Guilliman had over Lorgar, but at least to me it was more of a "I can't believe you did, I trusted you," hate.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I think part of the reason why we take such a BIG interest in primarch dueling or fighting each other is that they are the biggest players in the War hammer 30 k fantasy. 

The other part is that you have fan favorites who wants to read at least in fluff that their primarch can beat up your primarch. 

Angron is a tough close combat fighter and possible the best out of all the primarch but he wouldn't be able to hold tactically planning like that of Guilliman .


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

As far as it goes for me, I'm quite dissapointed with how the series followed the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. Even with the elements of surprise, the Word Bearers still got slapped in the face. 

I love the Ultramarines looking awesome all the time. No one cares, thats fine.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> As far as it goes for me, I'm quite dissapointed with how the series followed the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines. Even with the elements of surprise, the Word Bearers still got slapped in the face.
> 
> I love the Ultramarines looking awesome all the time. No one cares, thats fine.


Agree with you completely - I didn't enjoy this book so much - also there is a certain point which ADB wanted to kick fanboys,which IMHO doesn't fit well in serie....


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

DarthMarko said:


> Agree with you completely - I didn't enjoy this book so much - also there is a certain point which ADB wanted to kick fanboys,which IMHO doesn't fit well in serie....


I can see this, but I think his main intent was to portray realism to the situation. Something that has been lacking throughout the Heresy. I could see why people would get aggravated. Here the Word Bearers who are portrayed to be likable finally have a hard time whipping out the Ultramarines, but Graham McNeill will have his major legions dance through the book pretty much untouched. 

But I would agree that ADB probably has a problem with fan boys. I just thought he would finally show the Ultramarine fanboyism off. But he didn't. I think its a shame because every chapter pretty much strives to be them now. Its probably in Black Library's best interest to maintain the Ultramarines as invincible for GW gaming purposes and stuff. Unfortunate... but true.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

With regard to the performance of the Imperator Titan "Corinthian": 

Again, I think the complaints stem from a lack of description, rather than a lack of kills. The Corinthian destroys a dozen warhounds before going down. It's just that ADB doesn't describe any of those kills and therefore we don't get a sense of the Corinthian's power. I had the same complaint when reading his NL series. The Blood Angels do kill quite a few Night Lords, but none of those kills are ever described. They're only mentioned in passing, and thus the fight _feels_ lop-sided.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

ckcrawford said:


> I can see this, but I think his main intent was to portray realism to the situation. Something that has been lacking throughout the Heresy. I could see why people would get aggravated. Here the Word Bearers who are portrayed to be likable finally have a hard time whipping out the Ultramarines, but Graham McNeill will have his major legions dance through the book pretty much untouched.
> 
> But I would agree that ADB probably has a problem with fan boys. I just thought he would finally show the Ultramarine fanboyism off. But he didn't. I think its a shame because every chapter pretty much strives to be them now. Its probably in Black Library's best interest to maintain the Ultramarines as invincible for GW gaming purposes and stuff. Unfortunate... but true.


That's the thing friend (portrayal of realism),guy wroted in the first heretic how Corax survives lascannon fire with just burn marks and now SW are threatening Angrons life with boltguns...Also I like to point out that chapter "Russ's lesson" was just rubbing one of the SW fanboys who did have a beef with him on B&C, to be precise (didn't like how ADB is writing wolves)...and I'm really sick how authors get their bias (or ideas) from 40k forums....


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

DarthMarko said:


> Also I like to point out that chapter "Russ's lesson" was just rubbing one of the SW fanboys who did have a beef with him on B&C, to be precise (didn't like how ADB is writing wolves)...and I'm really sick how authors get their bias (or ideas) from 40k forums....


Honestly, I think Angron should be the best at close combat, i.e. he has greater than 50% odds against any other primarch in a CC duel on open ground

I mean, close combat prowess is his whole thing. Take that away and Angron's just some mindless berserker (thanks to the nails) who isn't even the best at CC. The way I see it, Angron would have a moderate edge over Russ in a duel, but Russ would be the better commander _by far._


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

DarthMarko said:


> That's the thing friend (portrayal of realism),guy wroted in the first heretic how Corax survives lascannon fire with just burn marks and now SW are threatening Angrons life with boltguns...Also I like to point out that chapter "Russ's lesson" was just rubbing one of the SW fanboys who did have a beef with him on B&C, to be precise (didn't like how ADB is writing wolves)...and I'm really sick how authors get their bias (or ideas) from 40k forums....


Thats pretty true. I remember that. That was pretty fucked up. In that scenario I would like to think one guy went to far with showing the toughness of a primarch. Because even Horus in _Horus Rising_ almost dies from the laser arrows being shot at him when the civilization he discovers turns on him.

As far as realism goes... I did like the book, but the traitors are looking retarded. In this book it wasn't like they were portrayed in other novels. So I think thats fair to give him credit.

Even the Dark Angels pretty much raping the Night Lords was a bit too much for my like. But I look at that and I think to myself that perhaps the Night Lords are lacking in talent. When I look at the fight against the Ultramarine successors, that also gave me a pause. Unfortunately I look at the rest of the series and I can't really single out ADB.

One thing I disagree with is the idea that chapters are the way to go. And I hope that doesn't really go that way. We obviously see a difference between the Legion Imperium, and the crippled Chapter Imperium. Another thing I dislike about ADB's thought is the fact that the traitors need to be butchered throughout the series simply because they lost the war. Sure they lost the war but there are a lot more factors than simply being strategically worse than the loyalists. Talk about some legions being superior to others. I think thats just simply wrong to make the traitor legions look like idiots. With how fluff stands, they are already outnumbered, we get that, because of the purging. But the fact is they still almost gained victory, even being outnumbered. So to not show strategic victories for the traitors until Terra, is really in my opinion not fair to the overall GW theme of making the legions on equal footing (please don't mention the Ultramarines).


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding Horus' toughness. I remember reading some older fluff from Horus' early years with the Emperor in the great crusade. Where the crusade camp on a planet had been suprised by enemy fighters, and The Emperor stood over a prone Horus, keeping attackers away from his son whom had been stunned by a lucky plasma blast. Horus later repaying the debt by slicing off the arms of a greenskin warlord trying to choke the life out of his father.

In comparision, Lorgar in Betrayer, looks like melted taffy when the titan nails him with a plasma shot. Driving Angron to his herculean feat to give Lorgar time to come aorund.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Even the Dark Angels pretty much raping the Night Lords was a bit too much for my like.


Earlier, Curze almost choked the Lion to death, and Sevatar and Shang [Sheng?] "raped" Alajos. It's hard to argue that ADB doesn't give Curze and the NL plenty of love. 



> But I look at that and I think to myself that perhaps the Night Lords are lacking in talent.


The DA ambushed the NL thanks to some crazy xenos Warp travel technology. The NL didn't make any tactical mistakes. They were just caught off guard by technology they'd previously never encountered. 

Even then, the NL could've broken out of the DA cordon had Curze not been batsh1t insane (deciding to board the DA flagship) 



> When I look at the fight against the Ultramarine successors, that also gave me a pause.


The NL were grossly outnumbered



> Another thing I dislike about ADB's thought is the fact that the traitors need to be butchered throughout the series simply because they lost the war.


I think most of the butchering so far has involved loyalists on the receiving end...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Even the Dark Angels pretty much raping the Night Lords was a bit too much for my like.


I never understand criticisms of this sort. Why does there have to be balance in everything? Why can't one Legion comprehensively lose? The Night Lords lost the Thramas Crusade because they got tied down in a pitched battle when their objective was to always avoid one. They knew that the First Legion were simply better than them when it came to such engagements. What's wrong with that?



ckcrawford said:


> When I look at the fight against the Ultramarine successors, that also gave me a pause.


Thats an even more strange example than the Thramas Crusade. Night Haunter had just recently been assassinated and much of the VIII Legion had already dispersed. What hope did the remaining Night Lords have against the might of the XIII? Again, why can't one Legion comprehensively lose?



ckcrawford said:


> Another thing I dislike about ADB's thought is the fact that the traitors need to be butchered throughout the series simply because they lost the war.


I've only ever seen him talk about the need for important individual traitor characters to be killed during the series, which is logical. 



ckcrawford said:


> I think thats just simply wrong to make the traitor legions look like idiots.


Who has made the traitor Legions look like idiots - apart from Ben Counter?



ckcrawford said:


> So to not show strategic victories for the traitors until Terra, is really in my opinion not fair to the overall GW theme of making the legions on equal footing (please don't mention the Ultramarines).


Did we not read the same book? _Betrayer_ is essentially about the World Eater's and Word Bearers ravaging Ultramar and bringing Guilliman's empire to it's knees. What about Isstvan III? Isstvan V? the Martian Schism? the Battle of Phall? the infiltration of Deliverance? There have been plenty of rebel victories.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I never understand criticisms of this sort. Why does there have to be balance in everything? Why can't one Legion comprehensively lose? The Night Lords lost the Thramas Crusade because they got tied down in a pitched battle when their objective was to always avoid one. They knew that the First Legion were simply better than them when it came to such engagements. What's wrong with that?


Its just one of several things. I haven't actually attacked his works yet. You mention Ben Counter for example, and that is precisely why I have probably only mentioned ADB only once. The thing is ADB has said in his blog that the traitors need to show real loses. You can take this in all sorts of ways. Though most of his stories would favor the loyalists, I wouldn't say yet, that he is butchering loyalists... even though, it seems that way.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats an even more strange example than the Thramas Crusade. Night Haunter had just recently been assassinated and much of the VIII Legion had already dispersed. What hope did the remaining Night Lords have against the might of the XIII? Again, why can't one Legion comprehensively lose?


Maybe this particular story I took the wrong way. However, I would say that it seemed that the Night Lords lost quite decessively considering the fact that they only had half their legion at hand. At half strength they overwhelmed and pretty much utterly destroyed the Night Lords Legion. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've only ever seen him talk about the need for important individual traitor characters to be killed during the series, which is logical.


He's also mentioned using the traitor legions for "real loses." So what it seems like he's saying is that as long as he writes the traitor's perspective well, he can get away with writing the traitors completely get anhilated. Because in a sense... it has to be done. If that's his perspective I really disagree with it. I don't think I'll get carried away and think about it every time I read an ADB book, because I think I haven't gone out of my way to question his works yet.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Who has made the traitor Legions look like idiots - apart from Ben Counter?


Lorgar, Perturabo, and Fulgrim have really been depicted as incompetent. Is that better than being an idiot? If you want to be technical than sure, but there level of incompetence is very questionable and I wonder how they were allowed to lead their legions into the Great Crusade at all.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Did we not read the same book? _Betrayer_ is essentially about the World Eater's and Word Bearers ravaging Ultramar and bringing Guilliman's empire to it's knees. What about Isstvan III? Isstvan V? the Martian Schism? the Battle of Phall? the infiltration of Deliverance? There have been plenty of rebel victories.


No offense, but I think your sugar coating it. Istvaan V was really the only victory for the traitors so far. Every other battle has caused the traitors very much that eventually that causes them to lose the war. The Battle of the Phall and the Battle of Calth, even though they were always meant to be loyalist victories in some way, really don't think the element of surprised has been completely honored in the series. In itself its a tactical advantage, but from a tactical advantage all of a sudden it seems the traitors just lose their abilities in the mist and become incompetent. When the Dark Angels do it with half their force, they obviously don't lose it and pretty much destroy the legacy of the Night Lords, but when the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors do it, they just can't. 

I haven't actually gone out of my way to attack ADB's work, because so far I think he's done a fair job, and hasn't written anything "that redicolous." A few things do get me questioning what he is thinking. They aren't impossible, but I feel they are a little one sided. And what he thinks about the traitors and their loses would confirm that.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

DarthMarko said:


> That's the thing friend (portrayal of realism),guy wroted in the first heretic how Corax survives lascannon fire with just burn marks and now SW are threatening Angrons life with boltguns...Also I like to point out that chapter "Russ's lesson" was just rubbing one of the SW fanboys who did have a beef with him on B&C, to be precise (didn't like how ADB is writing wolves)...and I'm really sick how authors get their bias (or ideas) from 40k forums....



gotta agree with you on the bit about ADB and The Wolves as he has come across on here as not liking all the love fans give to the wolves kicking ass and potentially taking out other legions in the past. 

for me i prefered the bit that got you thinking did russ take out some of the lost legions but now it seems (how ADB has swung it) that he was only refering to himself fighting angron. to me that seems tacked on just to drive ADb's opinion forward and it has deminished the legend of russ in my opinion especially when ADB can then go on and write about guilleman fighting 2 primarchs at the same time. i mean, it smacks of yet more UM boosting to me which the fans hate yet BL/GW seem to promote at any given opportunity. (it doesnt make sense to me how he can take on a primarch who can bench press titans and one with the power of the chaos gods yet gets killed by fulgrim!!!)

i would have expected pretty much the same outcome to arise in the russ/angron fight as what happened between the lion and curze (which was top notch) and to be frank would have made more sense but i suppose he couldnt rehash it for fear of seeming a little lacking in ideas. it might have made sense to have russ kick angrons arse so has to add some weight as to why horus craps himself at the thought of the lion and russ turning up at terra. the lion was badass against curze but russ has been made to look a whelp and with him only having a skirmish with AL to have the chance to gain any props, i dont see how the whole horus getting twitchy scenario is gonna work out now.

but its just struck me that it will probs not be them he's scared of and will no doubt be guilleman and his ultramarines who havent been destroyed as was planned :'(


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> it might have made sense to have russ kick angrons arse so has to add some weight as to why horus craps himself at the thought of the lion and russ turning up at terra. the lion was badass against curze but russ has been made to look a whelp and with him only having a skirmish with AL to have the chance to gain any props, i dont see how the whole horus getting twitchy scenario is gonna work out now.


Are you forgetting that Russ is the Primarch who broke another Primarchs back over his knee? Not exactly the act of a 'welp'.

Or should we go further and just declare that Russ is the ultimate warrior Primarch who can never be beaten hand to hand? To be honest we didn't see the fight in any real detail and the Wolf King was up against, arguably, the supreme gladitorial combatant in the form of Angron.

Horus got 'twitchy' as you put it because 3 loyalist fleets were en-route- I doubt it would have greatly mattered which legions they were, it was a numbers game he couldn't afford to play at that time. When most of your forces are planet side only a fool faces the fleets, and embarked warriors, of 3 legions.


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## erebus1681 (Feb 3, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Its just one of several things. I haven't actually attacked his works yet. You mention Ben Counter for example, and that is precisely why I have probably only mentioned ADB only once. The thing is ADB has said in his blog that the traitors need to show real loses. You can take this in all sorts of ways. Though most of his stories would favor the loyalists, I wouldn't say yet, that he is butchering loyalists... even though, it seems that way.
> 
> No offense, but I think your sugar coating it. Istvaan V was really the only victory for the traitors so far. Every other battle has caused the traitors very much that eventually that causes them to lose the war. The Battle of the Phall and the Battle of Calth, even though they were always meant to be loyalist victories in some way, really don't think the element of surprised has been completely honored in the series. In itself its a tactical advantage, but from a tactical advantage all of a sudden it seems the traitors just lose their abilities in the mist and become incompetent. When the Dark Angels do it with half their force, they obviously don't lose it and pretty much destroy the legacy of the Night Lords, but when the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors do it, they just can't.
> 
> I haven't actually gone out of my way to attack ADB's work, because so far I think he's done a fair job, and hasn't written anything "that redicolous." A few things do get me questioning what he is thinking. They aren't impossible, but I feel they are a little one sided. And what he thinks about the traitors and their loses would confirm that.


I'm a Word Bearers fan (so I'm only going to concentrate on them here) but I think they've been portrayed quite fairly in the books I've read so far - The First Heretic, Know No Fear and Betrayer. Considering the Ultramarines are regarded as being the largest legion and considered as being tactically efficient I didn't expect the Word Bearers and the World Eaters to have rolled them over easily, and it would've been unfair if ADB would've portrayed them as sitting ducks in any of the battle scenes. The traitors are taking the fight to the Realm of Ultramar remember, so this is home ground for Guilliman's men and you would expect them both to fight hard and have a few surprises in store for their enemies. IIRC ADB explained somewhere that Ultramarines are showing Roman style stubbornness - in other words they fail to acknowledge defeat and keep coming back for more until their enemy in turn is defeated.

I think Erebus and Kor Phaeron messing up at Calth is explained in the book:


I took the attack on Calth to be a bit of fool's errand. Argel Tal explains to Kharn it wasn't a simple act of hatred or vengeance but was an effort to weed out the incompetent within the legion's ranks. That Erebus and Kor Phaeron failed to maximise their advantages, score a complete victory and kill Guilliman doesn't seem much of a surprise to Lorgar. You get the impression that he expected them to fail due to their pride and hubris, and his dismissal of Erebus' account shows that he is no longer close to, or indeed trusts what were his to closest advisers.


I certainly feel that over the course of the three books that we've seen a transformation with Lorgar and his legion. Lorgar always seemed to be great orator but was seen as the runt of the litter who never saw himself as a warrior playing one of the leading roles in the Great Crusade. We seem him at rock bottom in the First Heretic but he becomes more self assured from Aurelian onwards(seemingly every Primarch that comes into contact with him says he's changed). The changes within the legion itself have mirrored that of Lorgar.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> gotta agree with you on the bit about ADB and The Wolves as he has come across on here as not liking all the love fans give to the wolves kicking ass and potentially taking out other legions in the past.
> 
> for me i prefered the bit that got you thinking did russ take out some of the lost legions but now it seems (how ADB has swung it) that he was only refering to himself fighting angron. to me that seems tacked on just to drive ADb's opinion forward and it has deminished the legend of russ in my opinion especially when ADB can then go on and write about guilleman fighting 2 primarchs at the same time. i mean, it smacks of yet more UM boosting to me which the fans hate yet BL/GW seem to promote at any given opportunity. (it doesnt make sense to me how he can take on a primarch who can bench press titans and one with the power of the chaos gods yet gets killed by fulgrim!!!)
> 
> ...


You seem to be forgetting quite a few important facts. Guilliman briefly held his own against two primarchs, but quickly stated loosing, he's losing ground even before Lorgar breaks off to begin his chanting and is fully losing to Angron after. Then you say Guilliman being killed by Fulgrim is like something ludicrous? Fulgrim who was seen as a perfect warrior and almost flawless with a blade, has already killed a Primarch, was the first to do so infact(granted some help from the daemon blade) and then the most crucial fact of all your missing out is Fulgrim was a full on daemon prince when he killed Guilliman with what was very likely the same Anathema that brought down Horus. 

As for Russ, I don't think the book brought the XI legions involvement into question at all really, before the encounter with Angron they already see themselves as the executioners, why would they think this? Then the most telling comment is still the one from _The Outcast Dead_, where after Magnus breaks through to Terra the astropath says along the lines of 'The Wolves will be unleashed again' when asked what will happen to Magnus for his 'error'.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> You seem to be forgetting quite a few important facts. Guilliman briefly held his own against two primarchs, but quickly stated loosing, he's losing ground even before Lorgar breaks off to begin his chanting and is fully losing to Angron after. Then you say Guilliman being killed by Fulgrim is like something ludicrous? Fulgrim who was seen as a perfect warrior and almost flawless with a blade, has already killed a Primarch, was the first to do so infact(granted some help from the daemon blade) and then the most crucial fact of all your missing out is Fulgrim was a full on daemon prince when he killed Guilliman with what was very likely the same Anathema that brought down Horus.


he also forgot that both angron and Lorgar had just been recently sodomized by a titan and were only just starting to recuperate, Angron was already dying, he also recently dug himself out of 200 meters of rubble and was nearly squashed by a titan.
oh and lorgar had already expended a lot of effort and energy trying to make that song of his.
furthermore, look at guilliman, in this fight he is concentrated, full to the brim with cold fury, fresh and determined.
its like he didnt even read the book


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

ckcrawford said:


> No offense, but I think your sugar coating it. Istvaan V was really the only victory for the traitors so far. Every other battle has caused the traitors very much that eventually that causes them to lose the war. The Battle of the Phall and the Battle of Calth, even though they were always meant to be loyalist victories in some way, really don't think the element of surprised has been completely honored in the series. In itself its a tactical advantage, but from a tactical advantage all of a sudden it seems the traitors just lose their abilities in the mist and become incompetent.


regarding the Calth battle Lorgar stated he didnt care, he simply sent undesirables to go and fight guilliman, he cared little for what would transpire, he knew what was going to happen, but he wanted to get rid of the fanatics and the incompetent. (erebus, kor pahaeron and Zadkiel)
Overall the traitors most definitely have the advantage 3 legions decimated, a loyalist primarch killed, the wolves reduced in number and in a far away corner, the 1k sons almost destroyed.
In my opinion for the most part its been lopsided in the favour of the traitors in so far as for instance the lion acquiring siege weapons then handing them to Perturabo, or when alpharius ran rings around corax, or how the traitors ran freely through guilliman's empire, or how mars a planet incredibly close to terra was lost to the traitors and how the lion has lost his home planet.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lorgar was fully healed though after the Titan battle thanks to bartering with the Chaos powers.

But I agree with you on Angron.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Lorgar was fully healed though after the Titan battle thanks to bartering with the Chaos powers.
> 
> But I agree with you on Angron.


I don't have the book with me right now, but nevertheless i do seem to remember that Lorgar also found the healing process to be arduous and that he was also trying to perfect and channel his song, which also took a toll.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> No offense, but I think your sugar coating it. Istvaan V was really the only victory for the traitors so far. Every other battle has caused the traitors very much that eventually that causes them to lose the war.


Wait, what's wrong with that?

One of the constants of this series has been that one ever thought the Legions could turn on each other. A logical outcome of a civil war between equally-sized Space Marine forces would be a stalemate or a more-or-less mutual annihilation*. Isstvan III is a perfect example of this: even when attacking a greatly outnumbered and disadvantaged force, the result is only a bit more than a pyrrhic victory. Such is the cost of attacking Space Marines who are committed to fighting until the death.

* There would, of course, be exceptions on the basis of individual circumstances. For instance, it's qualified in "Betrayer" that Angron's berserk tactics led to him suffering disproportionately higher losses. Similarly, the Emperor's Children were a much smaller force than other Legions.



> The Battle of the Phall and the Battle of Calth, even though they were always meant to be loyalist victories in some way, really don't think the element of surprised has been completely honored in the series. In itself its a tactical advantage, but from a tactical advantage all of a sudden it seems the traitors just lose their abilities in the mist and become incompetent.


I'm sorry, but no. At Calth, the Word Bearers are absolutely shown enjoying all the advantages surprise can get them. They kill the majority of the Ultramarines and wreck the majority of their fleet. What changed was that the Ultramarines were able to get their formidable defense grid back in business. At that point, and with surprise no longer a factor, we go back to the basic factors: the Word Bearers attacked with a smaller fleet. The re-activated grid and the remaining Ultramarines vessels - to include a super-ship like Macragge's Honour - SHOULD have been able to regain the initiative from their enemies and it is right that they did.

As for Phall, it won't be the first or last time that a superior force will be stymied by an inferior one. Crucial, to me, is the idea (I'm not 100% sure if this was the case) that _Berossus _was prosecuting the attack... _not Perturabo._ The Fists' mode of defense in that case ensured two things: that they could not escape and that any victory for the Iron Warriors would be a pyrrhic one. Again, in line with Space Marine vs. Space Marine logic. But more to the point: how was suprise a factor in this battle? The Fists did nothing but prepare - for a significant period of time - for what they felt was an _inevitable_ attack.



> When the Dark Angels do it with half their force, they obviously don't lose it and pretty much destroy the legacy of the Night Lords, but when the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors do it, they just can't.


The Dark Angels didn't utilize _surprise,_ though. They used a classic deus ex machina, a warp machine that allowed them to perfectly coordinate warp jumps with a fleet of any size. They didn't just ambush the Night Lords; they had each and every warship of theirs exactly where they wanted it. That had never been done before in this milieu, and probably hasn't been done since the Dark Angels (presumably) lost said warp entity.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

How about Argel Tal being killed by Erebus? No one has mentioned that yet and many expected it to be Sang at Terra.

Also, in the short story, where Kharn captures teh 1k son at Prospero, does that take place after this? Kharn seems much more "mad" in that story than anything else we have seen him in so far. Also, we ever find out what he was looking for?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

theurge33 said:


> How about Argel Tal being killed by Erebus? No one has mentioned that yet and many expected it to be Sang at Terra.
> 
> Also, in the short story, where Kharn captures teh 1k son at Prospero, does that take place after this? Kharn seems much more "mad" in that story than anything else we have seen him in so far. Also, we ever find out what he was looking for?


Kharn was looking for the Moon Wolf, an icon Horus gave Magnus to contact him with, as stated in the story. Being sent to retrieve it to close a channel which to get to Horus with.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> Kharn was looking for the Moon Wolf, an icon Horus gave Magnus to contact him with, as stated in the story. Being sent to retrieve it to close a channel which to get to Horus with.


 
Thanks, didn't have the book to reference on hand.


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