# just how powerful were the pre-heresy Thousand Sons



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm reading Thousand Sons and loving every page of it

in battle, the TS fight like Jedi-Space Marine hybrids...they shoot lightning from their bodies, destroy enemies with telekinetic force attacks, predict the enemies' attacks...

it seems that the Space Wolves and Custodes would have failed miserably had it not been for the following factors:
1) Leman Russ and his howl
2) null-maidens/Sisters of Silence 
3) Magnus absent for most of the battle and even sabotaging the defenders 

it says in the battle scene that the SW and Custodes had no way of dealing with the psychic powers of the TS
this makes me want to say that the TS were the most powerful legion for their size in terms of raw power

does anyone agree with me on this, or am I off my rocker and turning into a frothing TS fanboy?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

More powerfull then a single gaurdman, and less powerful then the luna wolves?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

You're a fanboy!

But seriously it depends on how you compare them.

If it's a 1 v 1 match with the opponent astartes thrown in a ring together with no prep then you might have one result.

You could argue that the decision of the Wolves the bring Sisters of Silence is comparable to bringing hellfire rounds against Tyranids. It just makes good sense.

It does show how average (but in no way weak) the Thousand Sons are without their warp filth powers.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> it says in the battle scene that the SW and Custodes had no way of dealing with the psychic powers of the TS


But you see this is wrong. Not only did they have ways of dealing with it they had ways of completely nulifying it. You yourself mentioned both of these the Null-maidens and Russ' howl. Both were capable of completely shutting down psykers in the vicinity effectively leaving the TS wrongfooted and somewhat helpless.

The TS are an impressive legion in full force the problem comes from the fact that their strength is so easily negated. After all how do you negate the fury of the World Eaters? Or the brutality of the Night Lords? Etc. The TS, while certainly not helpless without their psykic might are certainly sub-par in several areas.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> But you see this is wrong. Not only did they have ways of dealing with it they had ways of completely nulifying it. You yourself mentioned both of these the Null-maidens and Russ' howl. Both were capable of completely shutting down psykers in the vicinity effectively leaving the TS wrongfooted and somewhat helpless.
> 
> The TS are an impressive legion in full force the problem comes from the fact that their strength is so easily negated. After all how do you negate the fury of the World Eaters? Or the brutality of the Night Lords? Etc. The TS, while certainly not helpless without their psykic might are certainly sub-par in several areas.


This was perhaps one of magnus's mistakes, he did not place enogh emphasis on ordinary warfare relying too much on the psychic might of his legion. They weren't helpless but they were sub standard compared to other astartes.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> But you see this is wrong. Not only did they have ways of dealing with it they had ways of completely nulifying it. You yourself mentioned both of these the Null-maidens and Russ' howl. Both were capable of completely shutting down psykers in the vicinity effectively leaving the TS wrongfooted and somewhat helpless.
> 
> The TS are an impressive legion in full force the problem comes from the fact that their strength is so easily negated. After all how do you negate the fury of the World Eaters? Or the brutality of the Night Lords? Etc. The TS, while certainly not helpless without their psykic might are certainly sub-par in several areas.


I don't think we're in disagreement

here is the quote from the book:



> The Space Wolves and Custodes fell back before them, helpless without any means of combating the lethal powers of the Thousand Sons.


it is implied that _on their own_ the SW and Custodes were helpless...with Russ and the null-maidens they were not


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> it is implied that _on their own_ the SW and Custodes were helpless...with Russ and the null-maidens they were not


Point being? Without armour they would be helpless against bolters. Without vehicles they would be helpless against faster foes. Bringing weapons to combat your foes strength is a basic part of military strategy. If you can neutralize it all together than all the better. Other legions' strengths cannot be neutralized.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm reading Thousand Sons and loving every page of it
> 
> in battle, the TS fight like Jedi-Space Marine hybrids...they shoot lightning from their bodies, destroy enemies with telekinetic force attacks, predict the enemies' attacks...
> 
> ...


Towards the end of the battle, the flesh-change came back, and most of the important tutelaries (daemons) turned on them. This cost them a large amount of men, and more from the chaos it caused (pun intended) and the fear of further using powers. They also lost all but two of their chapter master equivalents. So yes, had Tzeentch not picked then to mess them up, there is a good chance that they would have completely wiped out the majority of the invaders. They would have then been bombarded from space. this time without shields.

The last question is a definite no. They were an exceedingly powerful legion, likely in the top five, but they were also very limited. The problem with their power is that they are powered by the warp, the most ridiculously fickle power source in existence. Whereas the other legions placed most of their faith in their own skill at arms, the Tsons placed theirs in the warp. This is akin to a fight between an army with weapons powered with batteries, and another with weapons powered by a lazy guy on a treadmill who occasionally has homicidal rages. One can rely on their weapons if they are maintained, and the other can only pray that their weapons work and don't attempt to murder them. To sum up, the Tsons kicked ass, but take away their psychic powers, and they dropped to nearly last place.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It is like saying, "if you had fought me on my terms I would have won". It is slightly.... No, it is totally childish. The space wolves made them fight on their own terms. That is how you win a war.

At nave,
Tzeentch didn't pick on them, he was the only reason they made it to that point. Without tzeentch the change would have claimed them long before that point.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It is like saying, "if you had fought me on my terms I would have won". It is slightly.... No, it is totally childish. The space wolves made them fight on their own terms. That is how you win a war.
> 
> At nave,
> Tzeentch didn't pick on them, he was the only reason they made it to that point. Without tzeentch the change would have claimed them long before that point.


My point was that had Tzeentch picked a better time to collect on the Tsons debt there is a fair chance that they would have fared much better in the battle.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes, but then at the same time you need to acknowledge that they would have never made it to that point. They, on their own, were powerful, but they were also failures. So no, they would not have defeated the wolves on their own. 

Basically the op is saying that the SW couldn't have won on their own, but he is not considering that the TS wouldn't have even survived to that point on their own.


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## Whitehorn (Dec 17, 2009)

> just how powerful were the pre-heresy Thousand Sons


Magnus had the power to destroy the entire combined SW fleet. 

That's how powerful the Thousands Sons were. 

A loyal tragedy.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Whitehorn said:


> Magnus had the power to destroy the entire combined SW fleet.
> 
> That's how powerful the Thousands Sons were.
> 
> A loyal tragedy.


and a titan.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Well Magnus alone was the first favored by the Chaos Gods so I would say its a safe bet to say that His Legion was pretty powerful too. I agree that the TS relied a lot on their psychic power. I can't believe I'm comparing it to this but remember playing the old pokemon games? If you had a team that was just fire, you would do fantastic on a grass type team yet horrible against water. IMO legions like the Ultramarines are well-rounded and are pretty much good for any fight ; not too much here, not too less there. So if you look at the TS, they have their advantages but the SW took the advantage with the null-maidens and used that against the TS.

(now that i think about the original pokemon games, I miss being a child :laugh

I have always thought them to be a very powerful Legion.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I agree that the Thousand Sons were a very powerful legion with their Astartes and Psychic might. If a legion is to be any good they must first play using their strengths and knowing their weaknessess. Space Wolves knew the weakness of the Thousand Sons by nulifying their greatest strength through anti psykers. The problem was that the TS did not prepare and were not ready for a fight without their psychic powers and in that way cost them the battle. The other mishaps also played a part in their downfall but those werent the deciding factors. I would have to say TS would have whipped the SW if they had a back up plan just in case they wouldnt be able to use their powers, but in the end they were to overly dependant on that one variable.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Point being? Without armour they would be helpless against bolters. Without vehicles they would be helpless against faster foes. Bringing weapons to combat your foes strength is a basic part of military strategy. If you can neutralize it all together than all the better. Other legions' strengths cannot be neutralized.


Any strength can be neutralized, even a legion’s temperament or fighting style can be used against it given the right situation/tactics/equipment/etc. 

My point was and still is that the Space Wolves couldn’t hold up against the Thousand Sons without the Sisters. 
Unlike armor or vehicles, which each legion had in abundance, blanks were a very rare commodity. Even among legions, access to blanks was restricted by this scarcity. 

For this reason, the Wolves usually didn’t have ready access to an army of blanks (your analogy to armor and vehicles is not quite apt on this practical point). 
The Wolves’ ability to counter the Sons would depend on the Wolves’ advance intelligence: the Wolves would need to know when (and preferably where) they would be engaging the Sons, so that the Wolves could make an advance request for access to a large number of blanks, a resource from outside the legion’s inventory. 

It just so happened that the invasion of Prospero was this type of situation: the Wolves were the initiators, coming in prepared, with the Emperor’s blessing and the resources of the Imperium at their disposal. Even Magnus lent a helping hand by sabotaging the defenders and abstaining from battle.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Whitehorn said:


> Magnus had the power to destroy the entire combined SW fleet.


Probably just a load of shit.



MontytheMighty said:


> My point was and still is that the Space Wolves couldn’t hold up against the Thousand Sons without the Sisters.
> Unlike armor or vehicles, which each legion had in abundance, blanks were a very rare commodity. Even among legions, access to blanks was restricted by this scarcity.


And they would all have been dead long ago. The smarter, more prepared side wins. The fanboyism is cute and all, but it is just getting stupid.

Hell, at one point the wolfen are unleashed rip appart the thousand sons line.... so, obviously the wolfen could have destroyed the entire thousand sons legion. Point is that if the battle had been fought on their terms they would have won, but the wolves made them fight on their terms.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Probably just a load of shit.


I agree. I don't know if even Magnus had that power. If that were so, hell would have broken loose on Terra. But no... Horus lost. And if the Emperor is known to be the greatest sorcerer of all, then he would have simply blown Horus' ship into pieces. Along with the rest of the traitors.


I'm not sure what to make with the battle of Prospero in _A Thousand Sons_. I think it comes down to the potential of each legion. Especially in number. Wolves are described to being the biggest threat to Horus. If thats true, he must have had the numbers to do so. I don't think it would have been possible to defeat the Warmaster with pure tactic. And yes I am not following what was said in the Index Astartes due to the fact that it is written in form after the Heresy in which the Wolves were one of the most involved of the legions against the traitors.

On the other hand, you have a legion like the Thousand Sons that has not been able to achieve its potential due to problems with their gene seed. And which also makes them a quite small legion. 



Here in comes what I think, in _Prospero Burns_, the daemon in form of Horus stats that he had hoped the Thousand Sons and Wolves would have basically destroyed one another. This is where I think it becomes interesting. By destroy, as we have seen before, doesn't really mean complete anhilation, as we have seen in both Istvaan incidences. So in this instance I pick the Wolves coming out of this with much punishment. 

The reason why I pick the Wolves over the Thousand Sons is that you have to see the strengths of each legion against the legions of Horus. The Wolves have their military strength. So after this fight whether they won or lost, they are combat ineffective. Secondly, you have the Thousand Sons. Which I have to say, key ingredient was Magnus. And Magnus alone. Only Magnus had the ability to use and control sorcery without destroying himself. The legion itself I think would have been disasterous against the power of the chaos legions. They would have definitely mutated faster and been in much trouble against the taint.

So in my view, in order to really defeat the Thousand Sons during this time, Magnus had to die. And his legion becoming virtually useless against the powers of chaos. Indeed I believe that they unknowingly given those powers by chaos. 

That how I see how the Chaos Gods thought this fight to be. The Space Wolves just needed to be mauled down. But the Thousand Sons had to be anhilated. And the only way to do that is destroy Magnus. Had Magnus been the only one to survive that encounter, I don't think Horus' plans would have proved successful. 



_This brings me up to the key topic. How powerful were the pre-heresy Thousand Sons?_ Well they are astartes. But unfortunately, I think the only really highlight of that legion was Magnus. The rest of his legion did not use combat tactics as a key foundamental. Relying on the taint that had destroyed their legion before. And the legion was virtually destroyed after this encounter completely had it not been for Rubric.

The one thing I don't think was keyed upon on both books was how key those defense structures for the Thousand Sons were during the battle. I think both authors tried to show a very dramatic battle that looked so close. But I don't really think the battle was as close as the details of the book suggest. Without the defense systems the planet had no chance to put up a decent fight. Sure, you have a few Thousand Sons here and there hurling warp powers and tanks. But if you were to view the whole battle birds eye, I feel like those instances would look like Christmas lights against the incoming wave of grey.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't really think any other Legion is nessecarily better than any other. But the Thousand Sons had a definite advantage in small unit actions, where their psychic powers acted as great force modifers. A Legion of Librarians is going to be quite powerful. I'm hesitant to say, but I think that the Thousand Sons are one of the most powerful Legions. Their main weakness is lack of numbers and genetic problems.

On the battle of Prospero, I don't think that the Wolves could have destroyed the Thousand Sons by themselves in normal circumstances.The Wolves went in against Prospero with allies (Custodes and Sisters) the element of suprise, complete unopposed orbital domination, and Magnus sabotaging his own Legion repeatedly. They suceeded yes, but with huge casaulties. They had the entire deck stacked in their favor. I hate to think how they would do alone against a Legion who is fully prepared for them and willing to contest the orbital battle.

Even if they managed to suceed they certainly would not be a combat effective force anymore.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Probably just a load of shit.
> And they would all have been dead long ago. The smarter, more prepared side wins. The fanboyism is cute and all, but it is just getting stupid.
> 
> Hell, at one point the wolfen are unleashed rip appart the thousand sons line.... so, obviously the wolfen could have destroyed the entire thousand sons legion. Point is that if the battle had been fought on their terms they would have won, but the wolves made them fight on their terms.


right...no one is disputing that the SW won
it's not pointless to compare the capabilities of the two legions minus outside assistance and/or circumstances that would clearly disadvantage one side. 
it's not pointless to discuss whether the invasion of Prospero was a great feat of SW prowess, or a fight they'd have to be morons to lose. 

let's see...
the TS didn't even know the Wolves were coming thanks to Magnus, who allowed his legion to be a sitting duck 
the Wolves had outside assistance that a legion usually wouldn't have access to
the Wolves were led by their primarch 
Magnus abstained from fighting for almost the entire battle 

The SW won...yes, thank you for telling me what I already know
the battle for Prospero doesn't show me how great the Wolves were, it shows me that they weren't stupid and could win when everything was stacked in their favor 
it also shows me that the TS were able to put up a tough fight even without their primarch, against SW, Custodes, and Sisters, and while ill-prepared because their primarch had kept them blind to the invasion



Gree said:


> I don't really think any other Legion is nessecarily better than any other. But the Thousand Sons had a definite advantage in small unit actions, where their psychic powers acted as great force modifers. A Legion of Librarians is going to be quite powerful. I'm hesitant to say, but I think that the Thousand Sons are one of the most powerful Legions. Their main weakness is lack of numbers and genetic problems.
> On the battle of Prospero, I don't think that the Wolves could have destroyed the Thousand Sons by themselves in normal circumstances.The Wolves went in against Prospero with allies (Custodes and Sisters) the element of suprise, complete unopposed orbital domination, and Magnus sabotaging his own Legion repeatedly. They suceeded yes, but with huge casaulties. They had the entire deck stacked in their favor. I hate to think how they would do alone against a Legion who is fully prepared for them and willing to contest the orbital battle.
> Even if they managed to suceed they certainly would not be a combat effective force anymore.


to certain posters, everything you said is pointless because the SW won, they were "smarter" and "better prepared", you see...
well, I honestly don't see how the SW were smarter, they'd have to be idiots not to bring the Sisters when given the option. As for better prepared, do the SW deserve any credit for that? I mean come on, Magnus did all their work for them and the Imperium provided them with essential allies


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> right...no one is disputing that the SW won
> it's not pointless to compare the capabilities of the two legions minus outside assistance and/or circumstances that would clearly disadvantage one side.
> it's not pointless to discuss whether the invasion of Prospero was a great feat of SW prowess, or a fight they'd have to be morons to lose.
> 
> ...


I believe your looking into _A Thousand Sons_ too deeply. The thing with it is that its generally just one perspective of the whole thing. _Prospero Burns_ has a very big interpretation of what happened compared to McNeil's book.

Essentially, the only way the Thousand Sons were able to give a close fight besides the fact they were fighting a defensive battle was that they were basically kamikazing themselves. They could not handle using their abilities and gifts without paying the ultimate price.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

How powerful were the Thousand Sons? Well, I'd say that their elite units were probably more powerful than your average astartes legion's. I mean, if you remove outside effects and interference and have say one of the Scarab Occult face one of the elite of another legion, the Thousand Son would probably have the advantage due to psychic power. Though one must also remember that not all of them had epic psychic abilities and that some were little more than regular marines (hence why there are so many rubric marines).

One thing that annoys me is people saying that when the Sons couldn't use their powers during the Siege of Prospero that it automatically made them weak because they fell back against the Space Wolves/Custodes/Silent Sisters. Sure, they weren't the physical combat match for the Wolves but, then again, most legions probably weren't if we take level of threat the chaos gods regarded the Space Wolves with into account. The Sons certainly weren't outstanding without their powers but I wouldn't rate them as sub-par. The fact is that they were caught by surprise and massively outnumbered and their powers were really the only thing allowing them put up a fight against really bad odds. If any other legion were put into that same position I'd be willing to bet that they would not have performed any better and probably would have been even worse off.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You keep droning on about this outside assistance crap, but then if that was true you would have to consider the TS without the CONSTANT help of tzeentch... IOW, a crap-ton of spawn. 

You did actually read the book right? You realize your entire argument basically amounts to "well if they were only fighting on the TS terms then the TS would have won."? Are you aware of how stupid that sounds?

How the hell do you know they were putting up a tough fight? We saw a few snippets of a much larger battle. For all we know they could have been getting their asses handed to them across the entire front but the author only showed us the places they were doing well.

Besides, there weren’t exactly reduced to nothing by the fighting. They still had enough to combat another legion so the scars could get back and then assist in the fighting…. Well, cleanup on Terra.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> How the hell do you know they were putting up a tough fight? We saw a few snippets of a much larger battle. For all we know they could have been getting their asses handed to them across the entire front but the author only showed us the places they were doing well.
> 
> Besides, there weren’t exactly reduced to nothing by the fighting. They still had enough to combat another legion so the scars could get back and then assist in the fighting…. Well, cleanup on Terra.


Thats pretty much what I'm saying. But I think I put to much emphasis and detail on. So my posts were probably ignored. lol. :laugh:

Those few instances in McNeill's novel where Land Raiders are being thrown around and stuff are being done by the greatest of the Thousand Sons. I really doubt it was happening throughout the entire map. 

I mean there was enough resistance so that the Thousand Sons could die with honor. But for the most part they were utterly destroyed.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Thats pretty much what I'm saying. But I think I put to much emphasis and detail on. So my posts were probably ignored. lol. :laugh:


I have found that simple and blunt works fairly well.:laugh:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> You did actually read the book right? You realize your entire argument basically amounts to "well if they were only fighting on the TS terms then the TS would have won."? Are you aware of how stupid that sounds?


lol, is it that hard to grasp? really?

let me spoon feed it to you: my point is that the Wolves would have to be idiots to lose that battle
everything was stacked in their favor and it wasn't because of any tactical mastery on their part 

the Wolves didn't force the Sons to fight on the Wolves' terms, Magnus took care of that by sabotaging his own legion (did you read the book BTW?) and the Imperium provided the necessary allies

are you aware of how stupid you sound? your argument only makes any sense if the SW could take credit for what Magnus did for them


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> lol, is it that hard to grasp? really?
> 
> let me spoon feed it to you: my point is that the Wolves would have to be idiots to lose that battle
> everything was stacked in their favor and it wasn't because of any tactical mastery on their part
> ...


Okay lets not get into name calling. Its a pretty good debate without it. 

Your viewing the incident as if Magnus literally sabotaged his army. He didn't. He didn't do anything is the thing. He knew he was doomed and he embraced it is one thing. Going around and sabotaging your army is another.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Your viewing the incident as if Magnus literally sabotaged his army. He didn't. He didn't do anything is the thing. He knew he was doomed and he embraced it is one thing. Going around and sabotaging your army is another.


Ummm... he kinda did. He sent the TS fleet away leaving the space around Prospero completely uncontested so that the SW fleet could just swoop in. And he also put Prospero in a kind of psychic 'bubble' which prevented any of the Thousand Sons from knowing about the Space Wolves arrival. Hell, he even went so far as to kill one of his own captains to make sure that no one found out.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> lol, is it that hard to grasp? really?


No, it's fucking obvious, but that isn't how battles work. They lost because they didn't have any god damn backup plan, the wolves did.




> let me spoon feed it to you: my point is that the Wolves would have to be idiots to lose that battle everything was stacked in their favor and it wasn't because of any tactical mastery on their part


It was stacked in their favor because they brought the tools they needed. They came with overwhelming force. I doubt the sons could have mounted a successful defense if they had warning. The sons lost because they depended to heavily on one method. They lost because they were fuckwits.




> The Wolves didn't force the Sons to fight on the Wolves' terms, Magnus took care of that by sabotaging his own legion (did you read the book BTW?) and the Imperium provided the necessary allies


What the fuck do you think the point of the sisters was? The token hot chicks?



> Are you aware of how stupid you sound? your argument only makes any sense if the SW could take credit for what Magnus did for them


Magnus told them nothing, it isn't as though he blew their fucking fuel tanks. They had as much warning as any other legion would have. Honestly, they were doomed to moment the wolves left port, I doubt their fate would have been different even if the wolves didn't have backup.



Chompy Bits said:


> Ummm... he kinda did. He sent the TS fleet away leaving the space around Prospero completely uncontested so that the SW fleet could just swoop in. And he also put Prospero in a kind of psychic 'bubble' which prevented any of the Thousand Sons from knowing about the Space Wolves arrival. Hell, he even went so far as to kill one of his own captains to make sure that no one found out.


Fleet wouldn't really have mattered much, the entire wolf fleet was baring down on their heads along with a shit-ton of other imperial ships. They would have come down on an a disorganized fleet. Just have given the sons an hour... maybe. Not telling them just put them on even footing with other force. That might have given them some time, but not nearly enough.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Your viewing the incident as if Magnus literally sabotaged his army. He didn't. He didn't do anything is the thing. He knew he was doomed and he embraced it is one thing. Going around and sabotaging your army is another.


Magnus was stated as preventing the Corvidae's precog from working. In addition he murdered one of his own officers to specifically prevent any kind of defense from being organized. In additon said officer was also one of the Legion's commanders and most powerful psykers, thus depriving them of a war asset.



gen.ahab said:


> Magnus told them nothing, it isn't as though he blew their fucking fuel tanks. They had as much warning as any other legion would have.


Actually no. It's noted in the novel that Magnus prevented the Corvidae from seeing the future and warning them. The Thousand Sons do have acess to precogniton, precogniton that was blocked to them.



gen.ahab said:


> Honestly, they were doomed to moment the wolves left port, I doubt their fate would have been different even if the wolves didn't have backup.


Even in Prsopero Burns the Wolves themselves are iffy about their chances if victory because of the Sons powers. Haweser even talks about how the Sisters where needed. Not ''oh they would be nice to have'' but needed.

I don't understand your claims of ''they came in overwhelming force'' when Prospero Burns itself depicts the Wolves own doubts about it.



gen.ahab said:


> Fleet wouldn't really have mattered much, the entire wolf fleet was baring down on their heads along with a shit-ton of other imperial ships. They would have come down on an a disorganized fleet. Just have given the sons an hour... maybe. Not telling them just put them on even footing with other force. That might have given them some time, but not nearly enough.


It ould hardly be an unorganised fleet if the Thousand Sons had warning with their precog like they nnormally would have and the support of Prospero's deactivated planetary defenses. The Wolves themselves are even suprised to find no resistiance in orbit.

Even if the Wolves would have made planetfall it would have been more difficult to launch an assualt and the prescense of the Thousand Sons fleet would have hampered it.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm not putting on spoiler tags on because the title of this thread should adequately indicate that there will be spoilers.

Firstly, everyone who is against OP has essentially repeated what I have said at post number 2 of this thread.

Now on to the point.

A Thousand Sons culminated in the Burning of Prospero. It is written from the perspective of TS and particularly Ahriman. The content of the book is supposed to 'big up' TS.

Prospero Burns ends with the Wolves on Prospero. It is written from the SW pov and it makes them look cool.

Both books reveal things about the nature of each legion.

I'm not going to go into the ins and outs of each legion (although this would be helpful), but rather look at the bigger picture.

You may not be aware but in Prospero Burns it is said that it was the intention of Tzeentch (or Chaos - whatever) to set loyal TS off against the SWs leading to both legions annihilating each other to the extent that they would be taken out of play. It is said that Magnus's decision to accept his punishment, as carried out by the Wolves, resulted in the near destruction of his legion rather than mutual destruction. That is a point broadly in your favour OP - well to some extent. We don't know who would have come off better in a direct confrontation - we do know that it wouldn't be a great victory for either legion. 

A point is raised about the timing of Tzeentch cashing in it's chips. Tzeentch wanted nothing more than to wipe out the two legions. It settled for 'owning' one of them. Tzeentch kicked in the flesh change as part of the plan to turn the TS to chaos, because it knew that they could not serve their purpose on Prospero (that purpose being to hold their own against the wolves). I think that point is against you OP, but you would of course say that Magnus had screwed his chances of winning by that point.

Another issue is to what extent TS could have mounted a serious defence had they prepared for the coming battle. Firstly, I think the offer by Tzeentch to take out some of incoming SW fleet was a bluff. It would have made sense for Tzeentch to do that anyway. To me it largely comes down to whether the TS could have used orbital defences and if Magnus and had joined the fight earlier. Go back to my previous points on this. Propero Burns suggests that the outcome of the attack on Prospero might have been less one sided, but TS wouldn't have won outright.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Actually no. It's noted in the novel that Magnus prevented the Corvidae from seeing the future and warning them. The Thousand Sons do have acess to precogniton, precogniton that was blocked to them.


True, I had forgotten about that.



> Even in Prsopero Burns the Wolves themselves are iffy about their chances if victory because of the Sons powers. Haweser even talks about how the Sisters where needed. Not ''oh they would be nice to have'' but needed.
> 
> I don't understand your claims of ''they came in overwhelming force'' when Prospero Burns itself depicts the Wolves own doubts about it.


Why would I say it? Hindsight. We see that they were devastated. And. honestly, the books were writen by people who probably didn't understand that, even if the wolves had trouble on the planet, the battle was over the moment they secured the orbit. Although, if magnus had not withheald info then it would have changed things.

Again, they expressed doubt, but we see that the wolves had the numbers to crush the sons. I personally believe that the wolves could have done it on their own, but they would have been done as far as the rest of the war goes.



> It ould hardly be an unorganised fleet if the Thousand Sons had warning with their precog like they nnormally would have and the support of Prospero's deactivated planetary defenses. The Wolves themselves are even suprised to find no resistiance in orbit.


The fleet would have been to large even of the sons to deal with. Brute force method would have applied. Given, it probably would have bloodied the loyalist fleets noses, but I doubt it could have stopped them or changed the outcome substantial. I was assuming that the fell didn't know, btw.




> Even if the Wolves would have made planetfall it would have been more difficult to launch an assualt and the prescense of the Thousand Sons fleet would have hampered it.


Fleet would be gone. I wouldn't drop men in with enemy guns over their heads. Just a bad idea.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Why would I say it? Hindsight. We see that they were devastated. And. honestly, the books were writen by people who probably didn't understand that, even if the wolves had trouble on the planet, the battle was over the moment they secured the orbit.


Which is why the lack of orbital defenses and fleet are such big factors. 




gen.ahab said:


> Again, they expressed doubt, but we see that the wolves had the numbers to crush the sons. I personally believe that the wolves could have done it on their own, but they would have been done as far as the rest of the war goes.


Honestly for me it's hard to say wheter the Wolves could have done it or not. I've already expressed my opinion earlier in the thread, but yes, if they had done it they definitely would have been a spent force.




gen.ahab said:


> .
> The fleet would have been to large even of the sons to deal with. Brute force method would have applied. Given, it probably would have bloodied the loyalist fleets noses, but I doubt it could have stopped them or changed the outcome substantial. I was assuming that the fell didn't know, btw.


Why would it have been too large to deal with? Ideally the Thosuand Sons would have had Prospero's planetary defenses to aid them as well. That would have evened things. I don't recall any exact numbers on the Space Wolf of Thousand Sons fleets since the books did't go into much detail about numbers.

And even if the Space Wolves pushed past the Sons fleet into orbit the Sons still could have made landing difficult. It's an entire Legionary fleet that could have been backed up by planetary defenses. They would have caused serious trouble in my mind.



gen.ahab said:


> Fleet would be gone. I wouldn't drop men in with enemy guns over their heads. Just a bad idea.


Easier said than done. It's an entirely Legionary fleet after all. We know the Wolves had other Imperial ships with them, but we don't know how much or of what type. And regardless it's an entire Legionary fleet. I would assume that if one spent all efforts into taking out the entire fleet then the invading fleet would be too heavily mauled to get past the orbital defenses or posses enough firepower to do anything to the Raptora kine-shield.

Of course all above are guesses given that we don't have concrete evidence on numbers for each fleet.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Why would it have been too large to deal with? Ideally the Thosuand Sons would have had Prospero's planetary defenses to aid them as well. That would have evened things. I don't recall any exact numbers on the Space Wolf of Thousand Sons fleets since the books did't go into much detail about numbers.


Wolves were probably twice the size of the sons, if not greater, it would make sense of their fleet to be of equally greater size. Factor that in with a probably equally vast, or at least comparable imperial fleet and you have spelt doom for the, comparatively, small sized fleet of the sons.



> even if the Space Wolves pushed past the Sons fleet into orbit the Sons still could have made landing difficult. It's an entire Legionary fleet that could have been backed up by planetary defenses. They would have caused serious trouble in my mind.


Wipe out the fleet, you have all the time you need.




> said than done. It's an entirely Legionary fleet after all. We know the Wolves had other Imperial ships with them, but we don't know how much or of what type. And regardless it's an entire Legionary fleet. I would assume that if one spent all efforts into taking out the entire fleet then the invading fleet would be too heavily mauled to get past the orbital defenses or posses enough firepower to do anything to the Raptora kine-shield.


Yes, but, again, I would wager that the loyalist fleet was many times larger.


Really though, once the fleet was gone the wolves could simply have laid siege to the planet. Hell, they could have blow the planet out from below them if need be.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Hell, they could have blow the planet out from below them if need be.


This I highly doubt. Otherwise, why didn't they? If Russ had a way of taking out the Sons without sustaining casualties why wouldn't he do it? Hell, it certainly seems like something Valdor would have suggested if it was an option.

It probably would have looked pretty cool though. Almost like the Rock, have the City of Light floating around in space inside a giant kineshield.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> This I highly doubt. Otherwise, why didn't they? If Russ had a way of taking out the Sons without sustaining casualties why wouldn't he do it? Hell, it certainly seems like something Valdor would have suggested if it was an option.
> 
> It probably would have looked pretty cool though. Almost like the Rock, have the City of Light floating around in space inside a giant kineshield.


Because it wouldn't make for a very exciting story. You have to remember that when it comes right down to it this was just written by a bunch of dudes going by the rule of cool. IF they could do it to caliban then they could do it there.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I find is amusing the gen.ahab rails against fanboyism despite being a massive space wolf fanboy in every single way. Show us on the doll where the wolf touched you.

Everyone has a bias of to some degree or another. I think we can only estimate that the TS were pretty powerful all in all or Leman Russ wouldn't have bothered bringing the Sisters of Silence, he felt he need to bring them and the Custodes to win. To me that indicates that he thought he would struggle without them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I find is amusing the gen.ahab rails against fanboyism despite being a massive space wolf fanboy in every single way. Show us on the doll where the wolf touched you.


Yeah, and I don't deny it. However, at the same time I don't make threads about how awesomedeeawesome they are. :laugh: I admit that I love them, the cuddly little fuzzy bastard, but I also don't think they are the best and could kill everything always. I will admit that your average son could probably take a wolf or two with him, but there are 3-5 of them per son.

I am a firm supporter of doublethink.


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## Whitehorn (Dec 17, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree. I don't know if even Magnus had that power. If that were so, hell would have broken loose on Terra. But no... Horus lost. And if the Emperor is known to be the greatest sorcerer of all, then he would have simply blown Horus' ship into pieces. Along with the rest of the traitors.


A load of shit too!

If the Emperor was so inclined, he wouldn't have given Horus so many opportunities at all. He would have ended him at his own whim, rather than waiting to see that Horus could not be saved.

Magnus embraced powers beyond his control. While powerful, he was much more of a puppet. He paid the ultimate cost.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I think it's entirely possible Tzeentch recalled his debt from the Thousand Sons as part of a greater play in the The Great Game. The Emperor, powerful though he was, was still constrained by the restrictions he placed on him self for channelling the Warp. He also didn't really want to kill Horus, he wanted to reason with him, hence not tearing his soul from his body as soon as he could. Magnus on the other hand was basically channelling the will of Tzeentch unbound by convention. As far as we can tell Tzeentch can do pretty much anything he wants, if he wanted the Space Wolf fleet to blink out of existence into a Warp Storm he could (although that would have made a much shorter book) but clearly Tzeentch wasn't all about this happening. 

I was going on the notion that Tzeentch basically withdrew his support at a vital moment to ensure the Thousand Sons lost. Presumably because if they won it would somehow advance his brothers too much in The Great Game so he sacrificed his pawn.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> And. honestly, the books were writen by people who probably didn't understand that, even if the wolves had trouble on the planet, the battle was over the moment they secured the orbit.


Ever heard of hubris? You were doing fine without resorting to claiming the authors were wrong.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Personally if a 1K Son was in a ring against anyone else I would bet on the Son just becuase of the powers, escpecially the fire guys, 

On seperate note the Burning of Prospero huge topic here and everything so I was just wondering how long did that really take? I can't imagine even with the Sons wrong footed that the wolves came down and marched around for like a single afternoon then leave cause they're done. This still had to be a pretty awesome battle and everything


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Death to the Traitors!


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Wolves were probably twice the size of the sons, if not greater, be.


Where did you get that from? It's the first I've heard of that.



gen.ahab said:


> Factor that in with a probably equally vast, or at least comparable imperial fleet and you have spelt doom for the, comparatively, small sized fleet of the sons.


Again, we don't know how many ships they brought along or how big the Sons fleet was.




gen.ahab said:


> Wipe out the fleet, you have all the time you need.


And then after taking heavy losses you face the planetary defenses.



gen.ahab said:


> Really though, once the fleet was gone the wolves could simply have laid siege to the planet. Hell, they could have blow the planet out from below them if need be.


They tried bombarding the planet, and the Sons survived.

And if they laid seige the Sons might have escaped via warp portal or it would have bee interuppted b the Heresy


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> No, it's fucking obvious, but that isn't how battles work. They lost because they didn't have any god damn backup plan, the wolves did.
> It was stacked in their favor because they brought the tools they needed. They came with overwhelming force. I doubt the sons could have mounted a successful defense if they had warning. The sons lost because they depended to heavily on one method. They lost because they were fuckwits.
> What the fuck do you think the point of the sisters was? The token hot chicks?
> Magnus told them nothing, it isn't as though he blew their fucking fuel tanks. They had as much warning as any other legion would have. Honestly, they were doomed to moment the wolves left port, I doubt their fate would have been different even if the wolves didn't have backup.
> Fleet wouldn't really have mattered much, the entire wolf fleet was baring down on their heads along with a shit-ton of other imperial ships. They would have come down on an a disorganized fleet. Just have given the sons an hour... maybe. Not telling them just put them on even footing with other force. That might have given them some time, but not nearly enough.


the Wolves' force was overwhelming because Magnus literally fucked his own legion over 
...the element of surprise the Wolves' had on their side was thanks to Magnus 

stop trying to give the Wolves all the credit when they had allies, and more importantly when Magnus literally sabotaged his own forces 

if the SW had manipulated Magnus into sabotaging his legion (Alpha Legion style), or if the SW were responsible for forcing the TS into a bad situation, then you could talk about how skilled the SW were 

but neither was the case, *the Wolves didn't dictate the terms of the battle as you keep droning on and on about...Magnus largely dictated the terms of battle against his own legion and in the Wolves' favor*, *the only terms you could argue that the Wolves dictated was that they brought Sisters when the Imperium put them at their disposal.*


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> This I highly doubt. Otherwise, why didn't they? If Russ had a way of taking out the Sons without sustaining casualties why wouldn't he do it? Hell, it certainly seems like something Valdor would have suggested if it was an option.
> It probably would have looked pretty cool though. Almost like the Rock, have the City of Light floating around in space inside a giant kineshield.


Partially because Russ was giving Magnus to throw down his weapons and surrender. And lastly, to give an honorable death. In _Prospero Burns_, I believe that they had bombed it to the point in which the planets crust was falling apart. So the planet itself was going to die. They just made it more interesting ending.




> Which is why the lack of orbital defenses and fleet are such big factors.


Its pretty easy if you think about it. Firstly and foremostly, the Thousand Sons have a number issue in the astartes side they have to make much for. To give you an idea of how small they are, Corax and his Raven Guard came out of Istvaan with 3 times what Thousand Sons had to start off with. And the Raven Guard are supposidly a smaller legion than most. Secondly, the Thousand Sons are inferior to the Wolves in almost every single aspect of battle like tactic, close combat abilities, weapon use. Yes the Thousand Sons have the use of many Librarians. But thats pretty much it. I saw very little use of tanks on the Thousand Sons side. Even with their regular human infantry. I don't remember any air support. The Wolves were a legion which incorporated all of that with tactic. 

So as you can see. Those orbital defenses and fleets, kinda were a huge factor.



> And even if the Space Wolves pushed past the Sons fleet into orbit the Sons still could have made landing difficult. It's an entire Legionary fleet that could have been backed up by planetary defenses. They would have caused serious trouble in my mind.


It definitely would have produced more trouble for the Wolves. It just seems very hard for me to have pretty much the smallest legion and one of the least populated planets being able to hold up against "Horus' greatest millitary threat."

Edit: I meant the Thousand Sons only started off with 3 times more than the Raven Guard. Not the other way around


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Anyone who uses the argument 'battles just don't work like that' instantly loses any fluff based argument because clearly battles DO work like that in the 41st Millennium. Russ must have thought for whatever reason that he couldn't destroy the Thousand Sons from orbit. Unless he wanted to get thousands of his own legion killed for no reason it must have been needed, so the orbital bombardment must not have been enough. 

Why this is the case is anyone's guess as it's not explained, but it just is.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Ever heard of hubris? You were doing fine without resorting to claiming the authors were wrong.


Well its not that there wrong. But the thing with Graham McNeill is that he exagerates his books a lot. And often doesn't use 100% truth in his books. I emailed him a while ago about a certain question with numbers within the legions. And what he said was that basically in his eyes is that some fluff can be exagerated like Battle of Thermopylae. Not that its wrong fluff. Or the authors don't know what they are talking about. But the at least Graham is writing the novel as though a Spartan were writing a novel about Thermopylae. So in a sense there are some _300_ aspects to his novel. 

Gree-


> Where did you get that from? It's the first I've heard of that.


Its more of something you need to be skeptical of. For one, you have to understand that the Thousand Sons are a really small legion. They were pretty much almost destroyed. Secondly, the Legion of Russ is suppose to be the greatest military threat to Horus. Of all the legions, like the Ultramarines, or the Dark Angels, the legion of Russ is supposedly Horus' "fear" if you will. If this is so, you have to assume number plays a roll in this legion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Ever heard of hubris? You were doing fine without resorting to claiming the authors were wrong.


Then tell me why the hell it was possible to completely, well.... Not totally, but basically destroy the dark angels home world with a fleet and it wouldn't be for this one? It could be that they hadn't considered it, it is a fairly cowardly option and the wolves are fairly big on honor. His legions nosee had been bloodied by the sons on that one planet, can't remember what it is called, so it could be that every wolf in the party was itching for blood and Russ simply wrote off the idea. This is all guess work, but if they can do it somewhere else I don't see any reason why they couldn't do it here.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Its pretty easy if you think about it. Firstly and foremostly, the Thousand Sons have a number issue in the astartes side they have to make much for. To give you an idea of how small they are, Corax and his Raven Guard came out of Istvaan with 3 times what Thousand Sons had to start off with. And the Raven Guard are supposidly a smaller legion than most.


Actually no. Astartes numbers different between each novel because of lack of communication between authors. I asked Aaron Dembski-Bowden on B and C about the proper numbers and he clarifed them as being around 100,000 as average for what they decided at the staff meeting. This was decided after the publication of A Thousand Sons, hece the numbers difference.

It's right here.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=215584&st=100&p=2592766&#entry2592766

He states the numbers in A Thousand Sons are not necessarily accurate. Then I ask him how many Thousand Sons survived and he's rather nuetral on the subject.

Both originally posted by A D-B on B and C.



> Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.





> Good question, dude. And I genuinely don't mean to be a useless tool when I say "Uh, I have no idea...", but I have absolutely no freaking idea, and I wouldn't want to speak for Graham (or any of the others) about details of previous novels. While the figure has (finally...) been set in stone, and it unfortunately contradicts some of the Heresy series novels, it's not exactly clear how it affects the previous figures - especially in regards to something like A Thousand Sons, where numbers have such an intriguing part to play in the narrative.
> As a rule of thumb, I take the figures in all earlier novels, and just multiply them by 10. Where the Thousand Sons are concerned, I either tell myself that not all of the Sons were on Prospero at the time, or I grit my teeth and times the figure by 10, destroying Graham's numerological coolness. The 10,000 Sons doesn't sound as good, though.





So no, we can't say for sure that those numbers where accurate.



ckcrawford said:


> Secondly, the Thousand Sons are inferior to the Wolves in almost every single aspect of battle like tactic, close combat abilities, weapon use.


No, you don't know that. Close combat skills maybe, but there is nothing in ethier Prospero Burns or A Thousand Sons to suggest that the Wolves are superior tactically.



ckcrawford said:


> Yes the Thousand Sons have the use of many Librarians. But thats pretty much it. I saw very little use of tanks on the Thousand Sons side.


Mostly because they had little time to utlize them. By the time they got word that the Wolves where coming they where already on Prospero. The Sons had practically no time to organize a defense.



ckcrawford said:


> Even with their regular human infantry. I don't remember any air support.


Air suppoer tis mentioned as being mobilised in A Thousand Sons. One of the reasons why we did't see more of it, was because the Sons where caught unprepared.

Air support also features heavily in the Sons attack on Shrike.



ckcrawford said:


> So as you can see. Those orbital defenses and fleets, kinda were a huge factor.


I already stated they where a huge issue.



ckcrawford said:


> It definitely would have produced more trouble for the Wolves. It just seems very hard for me to have pretty much the smallest legion and one of the least populated planets being able to hold up against "Horus' greatest millitary threat."


Except they did. Even with multiple things handicapping them they still inflcited huge losses on the Wolves going by both books. Imagine what they would have done without said handicaps and without the Wolves allies.



ckcrawford said:


> Gree-
> Its more of something you need to be skeptical of. For one, you have to understand that the Thousand Sons are a really small legion. They were pretty much almost destroyed. Secondly, the Legion of Russ is suppose to be the greatest military threat to Horus. Of all the legions, like the Ultramarines, or the Dark Angels, the legion of Russ is supposedly Horus' "fear" if you will. If this is so, you have to assume number plays a roll in this legion.


I am fully aware of the Thousand Sons lack of numbers. I however have not seen any evidence in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns to suggest that the Wolves outnumbered them by any signifcant margin.

Indeed, the Space Wolf Codex even notes they where one of the smaller Legions.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Well its not that there wrong. But the thing with Graham McNeill is that he exagerates his books a lot. And often doesn't use 100% truth in his books. I emailed him a while ago about a certain question with numbers within the legions. And what he said was that basically in his eyes is that some fluff can be exagerated like Battle of Thermopylae. Not that its wrong fluff. Or the authors don't know what they are talking about. But the at least Graham is writing the novel as though a Spartan were writing a novel about Thermopylae. So in a sense there are some _300_ aspects to his novel.


That is one of the most ridiculous things you can say in a fluff thread. When we talk about fluff we're talking about the published books, the official GW products. That is all we have to go on, everything in them is canon. You can't say 'well this is 100% fact, but this I'm going to assume is an exaggeration' or what not. It's all or nothing. Yes there's some contradictory fluff and with that you just have to guess, but you cannot just discount something because you feel it doesn't fit.

We also cannot say anything which is not in a fluff. We have no idea how good the Thousand Son were at anything impaticular because no one ever says. It could be the Space Wolves fought a glorious victory against the odds or the rolfstompped some noobs. Impossible to say.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Then tell me why the hell it was possible to completely, well.... Not totally, but basically destroy the dark angels home world with a fleet and it wouldn't be for this one? It could be that they hadn't considered it, it is a fairly cowardly option and the wolves are fairly big on honor. His legions nosee had been bloodied by the sons on that one planet, can't remember what it is called, so it could be that every wolf in the party was itching for blood and Russ simply wrote off the idea. This is all guess work, but if they can do it somewhere else I don't see any reason why they couldn't do it here.


Caliban itself had been undermined (sometimes literally) by chaos not to mention the warp storm that took place. Why didn't the wolves do the same? My guess is that A) Russ wanted on some level to redeem Magnus and B) If he didn't succeed with reedeeming Magnus he wanted to be absolutley certain he was dead ie see the body.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Got distracted before I could finish that post but yeah I reckon Caliban was very shall we say combustible so that could be why they were able to do it there. Also the DA were eager to wipe out not just the fallen astartes but also any evidence of corruption so it was probably necessary. The wolves just needed to kill the 1ksons.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> That is one of the most ridiculous things you can say in a fluff thread. When we talk about fluff we're talking about the published books, the official GW products. That is all we have to go on, everything in them is canon. You can't say 'well this is 100% fact, but this I'm going to assume is an exaggeration' or what not. It's all or nothing. Yes there's some contradictory fluff and with that you just have to guess, but you cannot just discount something because you feel it doesn't fit.
> 
> We also cannot say anything which is not in a fluff. We have no idea how good the Thousand Son were at anything impaticular because no one ever says. It could be the Space Wolves fought a glorious victory against the odds or the rolfstompped some noobs. Impossible to say.





Gree said:


> Actually no. Astartes numbers different between each novel because of lack of communication between authors. I asked Aaron Dembski-Bowden on B and C about the proper numbers and he clarifed them as being around 100,000 as average for what they decided at the staff meeting. This was decided after the publication of A Thousand Sons, hece the numbers difference.
> 
> It's right here.
> 
> ...






> We just make it up.
> 
> Seriously, the numbers are relative, and ‘powerful’ can mean many things, not just lots of guys. Basically, it doesn’t really matter the exact number, as long as you accept there’s a lot of them. And the IA articles/collected visions are kind of written as legendary history, like saying that Xerxes had a million warriors at Thermopylae...


 -Graham McNeill

This is one of my threads a while ago. It did kind of piss many people off.

As redicolous as it sounds its true. Many things can be exaggerated in terms of fluff. As to the original post by A-D-B. It was actually posted on this site, very long ago. I think maybe Baron of CotE will remember it. It was referring to the great number of Corax legion in _Raven's Flight_. I just think someone took that quote to that site. But I know Dead.Blue.Clown doesn't have that many posts, so it would be easy to find that post if you look through his profile. 

I am prodominently talking about McNeill's novels more than anything. I think other authors try to keep track of information better. And the email I recieved is more recent than that post. So I would say that even though ADB says the official number is more in the 100,000. Its still unofficial. I think they may have started talking about it perhaps. But to no such luck I'm afraid.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The point is you cannot tell what is hyperbole and what is not. You can't really discern anything the power of a legion or what a legion is capable of from a single bit of fluff. You cannot say the Space Wolves were better than the Thousand Sons in every single away bar Libbies as the fluff doesn't say that.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> It was referring to the great number of Corax legion in _Raven's Flight_. I just think someone took that quote to that site. But I know Dead.Blue.Clown doesn't have that many posts, so it would be easy to find that post if you look through his profile.
> 
> I am prodominently talking about McNeill's novels more than anything. I think other authors try to keep track of information better.


Except as far as I know the 100,000 is set in stone as of the latest meeting.

But regardless, even if we ignore exact numbers then I still don't see how the Wolves outnumbered the Sons in any signifcant manner.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> The point is you cannot tell what is hyperbole and what is not. You can't really discern anything the power of a legion or what a legion is capable of from a single bit of fluff. You cannot say the Space Wolves were better than the Thousand Sons in every single away bar Libbies as the fluff doesn't say that.


Thats what I'm referring to with _A Thousand Sons_ battle. There are certain actions if you will. I should underline actions in the book that should not be ignored. Like the Council of Nikea. But the battle itself... is something I wouldn't really use to defend the might of the Thousand Sons.

The problem I have with an author deciding to write like that, like McNeill is that you have authors like Dan Abnett and ADB trying to be specific is that I then have to weigh them by things like that. Battle scenes like that, though they prove a good read don't really give me the overall picture of what happened to Prospero.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> The problem I have with an author deciding to write like that, like McNeill is that you have authors like Dan Abnett and ADB trying to be specific is that I then have to weigh them by things like that. Battle scenes like that, though they prove a good read don't really give me the overall picture of what happened to Prospero.


I myself would not regard Hawser's account of the battle of Prospero as a good source however. It's a rather short first-person perspective from a non-Astartes with a biased perspective. The entire thing reads more like a Viking Epic than an accurate account. If I had to choose a better account of the battle I would have to go with A Thousand Sons.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Except as far as I know the 100,000 is set in stone as of the latest meeting.
> 
> But regardless, even if we ignore exact numbers then I still don't see how the Wolves outnumbered the Sons in any signifcant manner.


The thing with the Thousand Son's number rounding around 14,000 is that that is really really low, but it does give testament of how much that legion suffered due to their geneseed. So its not a big mistake of a number. I remind you that 80,000 Raven Guard is also considered a low number compared to most legions. As we see in Raven's Flight.

The 100,000 only refers to the Word Bearers. And how they were the second biggest legion. I have an entire thread on this which has much information if you would like to look into it. 

Back to my point, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm bashing your information. As you have found information on sites and used them well to explain you basis. Unless you have more recent information besides that quote, I would have to say, that GW is still in the clouds with numbers. ADB said that quote you posted months before _The First Heretic_, several months after the novel came out I decided to ask the authors personally about the numbers in the legions. Graham gave me that response of which I posted. This really surprises me. Because, maybe most of the Heresy team is online. But it maybe that some of the authors just aren't cooperating. But either way, we see they are not on the same page still. And what kind of get agrevating, is that you do have authors who have put much specific information.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> The thing with the Thousand Son's number rounding around 14,000 is that that is really really low, but it does give testament of how much that legion suffered due to their geneseed. .


Except we don't know if they where or not. The Sons could have numbered 100,000 men.



ckcrawford said:


> . I remind you that 80,000 Raven Guard is also considered a low number compared to most legions. As we see in Raven's Flight.


Except we don't know that they really did number 80,000 Astartes. They may have. The numbers in Raven's flight where before any coordinated effort was made to match up numbers (Hench the contridictions in Fulgrim with Raven's Flight)

If we accept the 80,000 man's figure for the Raven Guard, then the Thousand Sons would logically have to number nearer to 100,000 Astartes, if the average Legion was like that.



ckcrawford said:


> The 100,000 only refers to the Word Bearers. And how they were the second biggest legion. I have an entire thread on this which has much information if you would like to look into it.


I am already well aware of Legion numbers, thank you very much.



ckcrawford said:


> Unless you have more recent information besides that quote, I would have to say, that GW is still in the clouds with numbers.


Except that is the most recent information. It was posted December 18th 2010. Barely two months ago. There are other, more recent quotes from the authors on the subject on the Bolter and Chainsword forum, I can bring them up if you wish.



ckcrawford said:


> I would have to say, that GW is still in the clouds with numbers. ADB said that quote you posted months before _The First Heretic_,.


And now it's repeated again, a mere two months later.



ckcrawford said:


> Graham gave me that response of which I posted. This really surprises me. Because, maybe most of the Heresy team is online. But it maybe that some of the authors just aren't cooperating. But either way, we see they are not on the same page still. And what kind of get agrevating, is that you do have authors who have put much specific information.


That may be your opinion. But the ''100,000 Astartes'' number has been repeated multiple times recently on Bolter and Chainsword and I tend to trust that.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, we know they numbered near 14. It says it in a thousand sons. I can't give you exact quote, but it tells us they had 1k and something men lest and that this was about 10% of the legion.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> No, we know they numbered near 14. It says it in a thousand sons.


And that was before the numbers where finalised to be 100,000 rather than the 10,000 used in Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim.

I'll post the link again for you.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=215584&st=100&p=2592766&#entry2592766

Originally posted by A D-B.



> Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Except we don't know if they where or not. The Sons could have numbered 100,000 men.


No. Not possible at all. Especially if the Word Bearers are the second largest legion. And it says they are 100,000. By the very man who put that quote. If any other legion was 100,000 or more, they would not be the second biggest legion.




Gree said:


> If we accept the 80,000 man's figure for the Raven Guard, then the Thousand Sons would logically have to number nearer to 100,000 Astartes, if the average Legion was like that.
> 
> 
> I am already well aware of Legion numbers, thank you very much.


Alright. You seem to be forgetting that the Thousand Sons have had some history of almost being exterminated due to geneseed problems. Not a very reasonable argument I'm afraid. Bigger numbers can be understood when talking about your average legion. But legions like the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children were at the verge of not being legions at all. Have 200-1000 astartes at the beginning of a legion's crusade and end up with the number of the astartes that are around the tens of thousands is not reasonable when considering other legions did not struggle through a near legion collapse like the Thousand Sons.



Gree said:


> Except that is the most recent information. It was posted December 18th 2010. Barely two months ago. There are other, more recent quotes from the authors on the subject on the Bolter and Chainsword forum, I can bring them up if you wish.


Edit: I found the original quote. for the future. Use the original quote. And yes please still provide those quotes. Because we obviously still have an author who doesn't believe in official numbers. The below is an older quote. Not the same.

Original Quote





Gree said:


> And now it's repeated again, a mere two months later.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be your opinion. But the ''100,000 Astartes'' number has been repeated multiple times recently on Bolter and Chainsword and I tend to trust that.


The fact is, I have seen the quote you posted as well as Graham McNeil's email. One author may have the illusion that they are in the same page, but the fact is, even if one author is not, then they are not on the same page.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> No. Not possible at all. Especially if the Word Bearers are the second largest legion. And it says they are 100,000. By the very man who put that quote. If any other legion was 100,000 or more, they would not be the second biggest legion.


No, when I say 100,000 Astartes, I mean more in the sense of them being around that number, not exactly.

So yes, it's perfectly possible they could number about 100,000, or close to it.



ckcrawford said:


> Alright. You seem to be forgetting that the Thousand Sons have had some history of almost being exterminated due to geneseed problems. .


Nope. I am well aware of their geneseed problems. That however was a century ago going by A Thousand Sons and they can be recruting since then.



ckcrawford said:


> Not a very reasonable argument I'm afraid.


That is your opinion I'm afraid. So far nothing you've said has presuaded me to change my opinion at all.



ckcrawford said:


> But legions like the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children were at the verge of not being legions at all. Have 200-1000 astartes at the beginning of a legion's crusade and end up with the number of the astartes that are around the tens of thousands is not reasonable when considering other legions did not struggle through a near legion collapse like the Thousand Sons.


Except those numbers can be discounted since they where written when ten thousand was considered the standard for the Legion.



ckcrawford said:


> Yes please do. And please provide me an original quote, unless its an email.


Alright I will. This one is posted a week ago.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=221745&st=0&start=0

By A D-B.



> For the record, the official Legion sizes have been settled, post-publication of A Thousand Sons. The figures in the most recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions are correct. Roughly, Legions were "about 100,000" strong.


And here. This one was posted in November, but provides an intersting fact.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=214814&hl=numbers+legion



> Regarding legion sizes, I asked this at the last Horus Heresy meeting. The conversation went pretty much word for word like this:
> 
> ME: Sorry to bring this up again... About the conflicting Legion sizes... Some sources say about 10,000, others say about 100,000. It comes down to older Studio material as well as the previous HH novels, or Raven's Flight, the current Chaos Codex, and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. So we have two figures.
> 
> ...





ckcrawford said:


> Original Quote
> And please look at the date.


............and your point? That was before the most recent set of information. Obviously that quote no longer applies. It has been changed.



ckcrawford said:


> Again all by the same quote..


Ummmmmm, no. That quote is quite different than what I posted and quoted.



ckcrawford said:


> And no one seems to have seen the original text. .


I did. I just looked at the quote you provided me.



ckcrawford said:


> . The fact is, I have seen the quote you posted as well as Graham McNeil's email. One author may have the illusion that they are in the same page, but the fact is, even if one author is not, then they are not on the same page.


Except as far as it is shown my quote is more recent than your by several months. It's not A D-B's opinon from what i'm reading. It's what's been recently decided. If we believe what he says it's from Alan Merret himself who decides that.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Some people seem to be treating the Sisters as if they were part of the Wolves' regular inventory...the Sisters were independent allies who rarely, if ever, worked with the Wolves. They were not pieces of equipment under the Wolves' control. To make any meaningful comparison between the TS and SW, you have to determine what is part of each legion and what is not. 

There is a practical difference between your allies and your equipment: your allies won't always be at your side to protect you, whereas you have almost complete control over your equipment, a legion's equipment will almost always be there for its exclusive use. 

the Sisters were members of a separate organization who for most of the time, were not attached to any legion. Furthermore, blanks in general were a very rare resource, usually not available in large numbers to any legion. Thus only under special circumstances would the SW be able to effectively counter TS psychic powers. Likening the Sisters to regular gear that the Wolves brought along would only make sense if blanks were an abundant resource that every legion had extensive access to. 

The Wolves' allies helped them win, I'm not disputing that, but the Sisters simply don't factor into a comparison between the two legions. 

*if the Wolves invaded Prospero with essential support from the White Scars, would you include the Scars as part of the Wolves in a comparison between the Wolves and the Sons? It wouldn't make sense.* Neither would it make sense to count the Sons' psychic powers as external allies...even if the source of psychic power is the Warp, the ability to wield that power is still innate to the Sons. 
in order to make any meaningful comparisons, you have to be able to differentiate between a legion's external allies and internal assets.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At Gree, 
Well, assuming the same ratio applies, they would have numbered around 70k. Of course thats just a guess.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> At Gree,
> Well, assuming the same ratio applies, they would have numbered around 70k. Of course thats just a guess.


Well yes. I do believe the Wolves outnumbered the Sons, going by statements in Prospero Burns. but I've found nothing to support the idea that they did so by a huge margin.

I always thought the Wolves to be one of the smaller Legions really, going by the statement in their Codex.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> No, when I say 100,000 Astartes, I mean more in the sense of them being around that number, not exactly.
> 
> So yes, it's perfectly possible they could number about 100,000, or close to it.


Close to it? Really? Its already been said that the Word Bearers are 100,000. Its just not possible. That would mean other legions would have significantly increased in number as well. How the heck could one legion boost in numbers while others didn't. The only legion able to do so was the Ultramarines. But they controlled an entire system.



Gree said:


> Nope. I am well aware of their geneseed problems. That however was a century ago going by A Thousand Sons and they can be recruting since then.


In Index Astartes 1 its says it takes 55 years to grow a chapter worth of geneseed. Even with all the help in the world. To grow 100,000 is insane. In a kinder sentiment. No, not possible. 



Gree said:


> That is your opinion I'm afraid. So far nothing you've said has presuaded me to change my opinion at all.


Its not my opinion the Thousand Sons are one of the smallest legions. But if I still haven't persuaded you with my evidence, then I guess I'm sorry. A small legion like that can't just all of a sudden increase in size that quick. Even in the span of 100 years.




Gree said:


> Except those numbers can be discounted since they where written when ten thousand was considered the standard for the Legion.


Not necessarly. If indeed they have decided the legions using 100,000 as the strong point. 80,000 being a "lower" number isn't a mistake. And ADB in my quote says that number was based on the 100,000 strong point. So that should be good. 



Gree said:


> Except as far as it is shown my quote is more recent than your by several months. It's not A D-B's opinon from what i'm reading. It's what's been recently decided.


Thank your for the quotes. Those are very important, and I will definitely use those later on. But I must warn you. Though the great majority of the Heresy may accept those numbers. The Email I recieved was dated 12/08/2010. So perhaps McNeill didn't get the memo.

As a whole, the Heresy hasn't totally screwed up in terms of numbers. They just have to explain it better. The most confussing parts to the numbers where in _Fulgrim_. But a very vague explaination or excuse for that could just be that the description was referring to the first moments of the battle. 14,000 in terms of the novel is not an unbelievable number for them. Considering they are a problem legion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Well yes. I do believe the Wolves outnumbered the Sons, going by statements in Prospero Burns. but I've found nothing to support the idea that they did so by a huge margin.
> 
> I always thought the Wolves to be one of the smaller Legions really, going by the statement in their Codex.


Well their codex states that as though it was talking about the legion post-heresy. And by then they had several encounters with many legions. Including that ambush by the Alpha Legion. It also states that they only had one second founding chapter. Which is hard to believe even if you consider them a small legion. So it just sounds post heresy terms.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

_My legion is better than yours.

I got an author's quote here blah blah blah._

This is what this thread has been reduced to.

----------------------------------------------------------

The 'Monty Argument' (sorry Monty, but it has to have a name!) is that the SW wouldn't have stood a chance if they had not brought along the Sisters of Silence and Magnus had not sat down and done nothing. The primary argument being that the TS powers give them the advantage. 

One counter argument (and I don't think it is the best) is that the SW outnumbered the TS by such an amount that they would have won with pure brute force.

We then go on to have arguments of whose account of events is more accurate (ATS or PB) and we have discussions about whether the Sisters of Silence are comparable to wargear. Personally I think they are comparable to wargear - they are a resource that was tactically brought to serve a purpose.

Once you start saying 'what if the wolves hadn't had sisters of silence?' or 'what if Magnus had defended?' you change the game.

-If blanks simply didn't exist would Russ have landed on Prospero? 
-If Magnus had responded to the incoming fleet would Russ have approached the matter in the same way? 
- If it was in Magnus's nature to offensively resist destruction would the Wolves have been sent? Would more legions have been sent? 
- Would Magnus have been dealt with whilst he had the home advantage?

The burning of Prospero was a show (a bit like the beginning of TFH). I have already said elsewhere that the outcome of the fight without Magnus's idleness would have been less than clear (but that is only if Russ had tactically approach the battle in the way he did). Russ could have done a spear tip assault, beat the crap out of Magnus, dragged his corpse back to his ship and bombed the planet.

Basically, events happened as they had to happen. If it had been in the nature of Magnus to revolt (prior to the Prospero event) he would have been dealt with at Nikae.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now on to 'purile' mode:

Russ owned Magnus.
The TS have had no significant victory against the SW ever.

---------------------------------------------------------

On a slightly separate note (that i couldn't put elsewhere) it seems from ATS and PB that a) Russ owned Magnus, b) Looking at chapter master equivalents the TS were way may powerful than the SW c) line soldier - not so sure.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Close to it? Really? Its already been said that the Word Bearers are 100,000. Its just not possible. .


Why not?



ckcrawford said:


> That would mean other legions would have significantly increased in number as well..


Correct. It's called retcon. It happens all the time.



ckcrawford said:


> How the heck could one legion boost in numbers while others didn't.


By recruiting of course.



ckcrawford said:


> In Index Astartes 1 its says it takes 55 years to grow a chapter worth of geneseed. Even with all the help in the world. To grow 100,000 is insane. In a kinder sentiment. No, not possible.


No, that's in the current age. This is in the Heresy where we have the Emperor's knowledge and the Primarch at hand.

So yes, it's possible.



ckcrawford said:


> Its not my opinion the Thousand Sons are one of the smallest legions. But if I still haven't persuaded you with my evidence, then I guess I'm sorry. A small legion like that can't just all of a sudden increase in size that quick. Even in the span of 100 years.


No, it's your opinon that they could not have increased. So far there is nothing I've read to suggest otherwise.



ckcrawford said:


> Not necessarly. If indeed they have decided the legions using 100,000 as the strong point. 80,000 being a "lower" number isn't a mistake. And ADB in my quote says that number was based on the 100,000 strong point. So that should be good.


No, I was talking about at the time and context of the quote. Now they are fine.



ckcrawford said:


> Thank your for the quotes. Those are very important, and I will definitely use those later on. But I must warn you. Though the great majority of the Heresy may accept those numbers. The Email I recieved was dated 12/08/2010. So perhaps McNeill didn't get the memo.


Or maybe he did. I don't really see how ''as long as they are big'' directly conflicts with what Alan Merret said.

And honestly, if I had to choose between McNeill and Merret. I go with the head of GW IP.



ckcrawford said:


> As a whole, the Heresy hasn't totally screwed up in terms of numbers. They just have to explain it better. The most confussing parts to the numbers where in _Fulgrim_. But a very vague explaination or excuse for that could just be that the description was referring to the first moments of the battle. 14,000 in terms of the novel is not an unbelievable number for them. Considering they are a problem legion.


Fulgrim's description is rather conistant from what I've read actually. The number of Astartes not once is every mentioned as eclipsing 100,000 total for ethier side individually.

14,000 is not unbelieveable, but that does not mean they where actually that number.



ckcrawford said:


> Well their codex states that as though it was talking about the legion post-heresy. And by then they had several encounters with many legions. Including that ambush by the Alpha Legion. It also states that they only had one second founding chapter. Which is hard to believe even if you consider them a small legion. So it just sounds post heresy terms.


No the phrasing is more like the Legion's history.



> The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter.


The wording makes it sound like they where always small.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Why not?
> 
> Correct. It's called retcon. It happens all the time.
> 
> ...


So what were all the other leigons doing while the TS balloned from roughly a thousand members (that was how they got the name) to almost 100,000 (by your count)? Sitting on their hands? The *reason *that legions like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines wound up being so big was because of their excelt recruitment policies. Do you have any evidence that even suggests that the Thousand Sons were some how better than them? In fact the Ultramarine recruiting practise is held up as being a prime example of Guilliman's excellent logistical mind, is that something that Magnus has ever been credited with?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> So what were all the other leigons doing while the TS balloned from roughly a thousand members (that was how they got the name) to almost 100,000 (by your count)? Sitting on their hands? ?


Recruiting of course. 

They don't have to be exactly 100,000. Something in that rough range. 70,000-80,000 sounds about right. the recruitment would have happened over the course of a century at least.



MEQinc said:


> Do you have any evidence that even suggests that the Thousand Sons were some how better than them?


Nope. I never said that. So I don't know why you are bringing it up.



MEQinc said:


> In fact the Ultramarine recruiting practise is held up as being a prime example of Guilliman's excellent logistical mind, is that something that Magnus has ever been credited with?


Nope. Why are you bringing it up?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Nope. I never said that. So I don't know why you are bringing it up.


Because these two legions would have had higher starting numbers which given their better recruitment methods should logically have allowed them to grow at a much faster pace (and thus to a much larger proportional size) than the Thousand Sons.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Just because most Legions were large in number (though with the Word Bearers being the 2nd biggest and 100k in strength all but the UM must have had less than 100k Astartes) doesn't mean they all are.

Where in ADB's quote does it say that the Thousand Sons were anything larger than what they were portrayed as in _A Thousand Sons_?
Certainly the Alan Merret reference doesn't change that, as he stated _HH: Collected Visions_ was the accurate benchmark for Legion numbers and that publication doesn't state that the TS had vast numbers like Gree is suggesting.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Where in ADB's quote does it say that the Thousand Sons were anything larger than what they were portrayed as in _A Thousand Sons_?


He implies it when I asked him about wheter 100,000 Sons or 10,000 Sons survived. He suggests that there where more Sons offworld at the time or that there where ten thousand surviors from a much larger legion at the end of the book.



MEQinc said:


> Because these two legions would have had higher starting numbers which given their better recruitment methods should logically have allowed them to grow at a much faster pace (and thus to a much larger proportional size) than the Thousand Sons.


Correct. Both the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers where larger than the Thousand Sons. What is the problem here?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Gree said:


> He implies it when I asked him about wheter 100,000 Sons or 10,000 Sons survived. He suggests that there where more Sons offworld at the time or that there where ten thousand surviors from a much larger legion at the end of the book.


That's what he does to try and make the Thousand Sons to be as large as every other Legion, but no disrespect to Mr Bowden that's a load of sweaty old bollocks.

Why the fuck would you take what has been known to till this point as one of the smallest Legions and randomly increase their numbers 10x over? As I said before just because some Legions are much larger than other people have thought (something I'm fully behind and have championed from day 1) doesn't mean they all have to be. 
Unless ADB states that Alan Merrett said all the Legions were to be increased in size by a significant degree rather than just using the figures in HH: Collected Visions then I'm just going to have to believe Aaron is merely confusing the situation rather than making it clearer.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Correct. Both the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers where larger than the Thousand Sons. What is the problem here?


The Thousand Sons go from 1,000 to ~100,000 (which means within a few hundred) in the time it takes the Word Bearers to go from substatially higher than 1,000 (because the TS are noted as being drastically reduced in number so we must assume 1000<<number in most legions) to 100,000; despite the Word Bearers having a better recruitment process. How does this make sense to you? 

If the TS rate of recruitment was lower (as you admitted it was) and their starting numbers were lower (as you also admitted they were) how did they wind up in roughly the same spot in the same time period?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> If the TS rate of recruitment was lower (as you admitted it was) and their starting numbers were lower (as you also admitted they were) how did they wind up in roughly the same spot in the same time period?


Magic. Oodles and oodles of rainbow dreams and eyelash wishes. icknose:


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Thousand Sons go from 1,000 to ~100,000 (which means within a few hundred) in the time it takes the Word Bearers to go from substatially higher than 1,000 (because the TS are noted as being drastically reduced in number so we must assume 1000<<number in most legions) to 100,000; despite the Word Bearers having a better recruitment process. How does this make sense to you?


Yes. What exactly is the problem?

The Word Bearers go from 1,000+ to 100,000. The Thousand Sons go from 1,000 to roughly in the same weight class [70-80,000]



MEQinc said:


> If the TS rate of recruitment was lower (as you admitted it was) and their starting numbers were lower (as you also admitted they were) how did they wind up in roughly the same spot in the same time period?


Well because they would be in the same class of numbers, but obviously not the exact same size as I've stated earlier. If the Word Bearers where 100,000 then the Thousand Sons would be 70-80,000.

So then they would get that place by recruiting natrually.



Baron Spikey said:


> Why the fuck would you take what has been known to till this point as one of the smallest Legions and randomly increase their numbers 10x over?


Because every Legion is getting an increase. We are going from 10,000 for the basis of each Legion to 100,000 as average. The Thousand Sons would be 70-80,000 thousand if they where below average then.

They are still one of the smallest. It's just that the scale of Legions changes. It's called a retcon.



Baron Spikey said:


> Unless ADB states that Alan Merrett said all the Legions were to be increased in size by a significant degree rather than just using the figures in HH: Collected Visions then I'm just going to have to believe Aaron is merely confusing the situation rather than making it clearer.


I'm pretty well aware of the context of the question, considering I'm ther one who asked it and had a discussion with people later on in the same thread.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

increaso said:


> _My legion is better than yours.
> The 'Monty Argument' (sorry Monty, but it has to have a name!) is that the SW wouldn't have stood a chance if they had not brought along the Sisters of Silence and Magnus had not sat down and done nothing. The primary argument being that the TS powers give them the advantage.
> One counter argument (and I don't think it is the best) is that the SW outnumbered the TS by such an amount that they would have won with pure brute force.
> _


_

I was trying to compare one legion (TS) to another legion (SW)

- you have Ahab who's trying to argue that the SW somehow imposed their will on the TS when they clearly didn't. Ahab kept repeating his mantra that "the SW forced the TS to fight on their terms", as if repetition would make it true...

this made me seriously question his reasoning skills because if he had read the book, he would know that Magnus imposed his will on the TS by sabotaging their defenses. Magnus forced the TS to fight at a severe disadvantage. The puppies simply reaped the benefits, they didn't somehow outsmart the TS

- several posters also can't seem to grasp that there's no point in comparing two legions if you don't distinguish between independent allies (the Sisters of Silence) and internal resources (equipment, vehicles, psychic powers, etc.)

Without the help of Magnus and external support from the Sisters, I see the SW floundering against the TS , but apparently this doesn't sit well with some people and they feel the need to repeat that the SW won and that bringing allies to battle is a part of warfare...really? why, I didn't know that...

obviously, I didn't start this thread so that we could repeat facts to each other. I'm interested in discussing what would have happened under different circumstances, like if the Sisters were not available or if Magnus actually wanted to defend his planet, instead of killing one of his top captains, lowering orbital defenses etc. 
*Wouldn't the outcome of a less lop-sided battle, where the circumstances didn't just happen to heavily favor one side, more accurately reflect the relative strength of each legion? But no, SW fans aren't interested in that, it's enough that the SW won, regardless of the reasons...*_


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Yes. What exactly is the problem?
> 
> The Word Bearers go from 1,000+ to 100,000. The Thousand Sons go from 1,000 to roughly in the same weight class [70-80,000]


To get to the point were a legions losses would be considered drastic and they begin to consider scrapping the legion I would imagine fairly substantial loses would have to be taken. Ie. the starting strengths of the average legion would have to be 5-10 times greater. 

So we have the TS going from 1,000 to 70,000 an increase of 7,000%.
And the Word Bearers going from 5,000 to 100,000 an increase of only 2,000%.
So the TS were growing at a right 3.5 times greater than the Word Bearers. The ratio becoming even more divergent if we increase the starting size of an average legion or the final size of the TS.

So again, how exactly did the Thousand Sons grow that much faster than a legion that had better recruitment processes than them?



> - several posters also can't seem to grasp that there's no point in comparing two legions if you don't distinguish between independent allies (the Sisters of Silence) and internal resources (equipment, vehicles, psychic powers, etc.)


Because at the time of the battle there wasn't much of a difference between the two. During the Great Crusade the legions had pretty much unquestioned command over all other imperial forces. This means that although the Sisters probably thought of themselves as seperate (and even then they might not of) the were a part of the Legionairre war-machine and at the beck and call of any primarch who required them.



> Without the help of Magnus and external support from the Sisters, I see the *SW* floundering against the *TS* ,


Magnus' help is overrated in my opinion. All he did was remove the TS ability to see the future, move the fleet to another location (still in system) and remove himself from the battle. Removing the future sight ability simply dumps the TS in the same boat as every other legion, the difference being that the TS have no idea how to steer the damn thing. The fleet repositioning merely hastened the inevitable, the Imperial fleet is stated to be massive and the TS fleet is nothing special. Magnus removing himself merely delayed the inevietable confrontation between himself and Russ and we all saw how that turned out. 

The Space Wolves struggled certainly but bear in mind the POV of _A Thousand Sons_. We watch the battle from the eyes of the best and brightest members of the legion. We are not given an overview of the complete battle (except in the fact that the Sons are in near-constant retreat) but a subjective look at what the greatest members (some of whom are still legends) of the legion could do. I imagine a similairly stanced view from the Space Wolves would be similar (ie TS getting sent flying left and right by mighty axe blows and such).


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> To get to the point were a legions losses would be considered drastic and they begin to consider scrapping the legion I would imagine fairly substantial loses would have to be taken. Ie. the starting strengths of the average legion would have to be 5-10 times greater.


Where are you getting that number from? For all you know the Word bearers could have started off from 2,000?



MEQinc said:


> And the Word Bearers going from 5,000 to 100,000 an increase of only 2,000%.


Where are you pulling out that number from?



MEQinc said:


> So the TS were growing at a right 3.5 times greater than the Word Bearers. The ratio becoming even more divergent if we increase the starting size of an average legion or the final size of the TS.


No, those are numbers based off of what you pulled out. I have never read anywhere on what numbers the Word Bearers started at.



MEQinc said:


> So again, how exactly did the Thousand Sons grow that much faster than a legion that had better recruitment processes than them?


Putting aside the fact that your Word Bearer numbers don't seem to have originated in any source I'ver ever read, the Thousand Sons would have had a head start over the Word Bearers. Magnus was recorded to have been discovered first in Index Astartes and with his genetic information and knowkedge on hand growth of the Legion would have gotten a boost to recover.

IA Word Bearers



> The Apocrypha of Skaros tells that the Emperor and Magnus the Red descended to Colchis with two squads of Thousand Sons Space Marines, to meet its mighty war leader. Lorgar dropped to one knee, immediately recognising the Emperor from his visions, and swore his undying fealty to him


So Mangus had been found before Lorgar.

Plus the Sons where said to have fought only half of the time they had been founded in A Thousand Sons. Much of that had been seeminly taken up in studies.

But your numbers are at best guesswork. You can't say the Thousand Sons grew at so and so rate over the Word Bearers when you don't know what numbers the Word Bearers started with at all or how long the Sons had Magnus before they found Lorgar.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Gree said:


> Well because they would be in the same class of numbers, but obviously not the exact same size as I've stated earlier. If the Word Bearers where 100,000 then the Thousand Sons would be 70-80,000.


Why would they be increased to 70-80,000? Anything other than your own opinion to support this?



Gree said:


> Because every Legion is getting an increase. We are going from 10,000 for the basis of each Legion to 100,000 as average. The Thousand Sons would be 70-80,000 thousand if they where below average then.


Again your quote from ADB supports the info we already have on Legion numbers provided by HH: Collected Visions- info that has been circulating for close to 7 years now- but no where does it state that the TS Legion numbers are increasing, other than ADB saying that he likes to think up reasons how the TS could be bigger.



Gree said:


> They are still one of the smallest. It's just that the scale of Legions changes. It's called a retcon.


A retcon that happened years ago but was ignored by some HH novels, or is being ignored now.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I was trying to compare one legion (TS) to another legion (SW)
> 
> - you have Ahab who's trying to argue that the SW somehow imposed their will on the TS when they clearly didn't. Ahab kept repeating his mantra that "the SW forced the TS to fight on their terms", as if repetition would make it true...
> 
> this made me seriously question his reasoning skills because if he had read the book, he would know that _Magnus_ imposed his will on the TS by sabotaging their defenses. Magnus forced the TS to fight at a severe disadvantage. The puppies simply reaped the benefits, they didn't somehow outsmart the TS


What the fuck do you think the sisters were there for? The entire point of their presence was to level the playing field and prevent them from using psychic powers, IOW forcing the sons to fight on the wolves terms. I'm sorry, but I don't recall Magnus shutting down their powers, well the combat abilities, during the fighting.

And you keep bitching about external support during the battle on the wolves part.... you are aware the entire time the sons were being helped by tzeentch right?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Why would they be increased to 70-80,000? Anything other than your own opinion to support this?


An estimate that gen offered earlier actually. Of course it has to be a guess since we don't know the exact Legion sizes. If we go off of 100,000 as the average size of a Legion, and that all the former 10,000-sized Legions where being increased as part of this retcon then it logically stands to assume that the Thousand Sons where also inscreasing.



Baron Spikey said:


> Again your quote from ADB supports the info we already have on Legion numbers provided by HH: Collected Visions- info that has been circulating for close to 7 years now- but no where does it state that the TS Legion numbers are increasing, other than ADB saying that he likes to think up reasons how the TS could be bigger.


Except the TS numbers where based off of the 10,000 men per Legion model that McNeill wrote in all his Heresy novels. The Luna Wolves, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, etc, etc. All where roughly around 10,000 men.

If they are being increased then obviously the Thousand Sons would be too.



Baron Spikey said:


> A retcon that happened years ago but was ignored by some HH novels, or is being ignored now.


Actually the retcon is established completely about two months ago if you read my quotes. The earlier problems seemed to have been based off more lack of communicaiton between authors.

EDIT: Acually I think the Word Bearers where more than 100,000 Astartes at the time of the Heresy. Them being 100,000 men and the second largest of the Legions was given fifty years before the Heresy in the First Heretic. So logically speaking they would have had fifty years to grow from then on. The Word Bearers would have been even bigger than when 100,000 of them ahd apepared at Monarchia.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Where are you getting that number from? For all you know the Word bearers could have started off from 2,000?


The Thousand Sons are stated to have been devestated by the flesh change. The numbers I used were created based on my impression of the kinds of casualties that would have to be sustained in order for it to be considered 'drastic'. Feel free to disagree but unless the difference is less than 500 men (hardly drastic casulaties) the ratio still favours the Sons.



> the Thousand Sons would have had a head start over the Word Bearers. Magnus was recorded to have been discovered first in Index Astartes and with his genetic information and knowkedge on hand growth of the Legion would have gotten a boost to recover.


A head start of a few decades at most (the crusade took only 200 years and most of the Primarchs were found fairly quickly). Which is roughly the maturation rate of an astartes. So the Thousand Sons got maybe two batches in before the Word Bearers (which also assumes, I feel eroniously, that the Word Bearers didn't start recruiting till they found daddy).

Nowhere is Magnus said to have an understanding of the technology required to create or alter astartes. He bargined with Tzeentch to take away the flesh change but I have never heard of greater understanding coming out of that.



> Plus the Sons where said to have fought only half of the time they had been founded in A Thousand Sons. Much of that had been seeminly taken up in studies.


And the Word Bearers are stated to be one of the slowest progressing legions. Your point (I think it was casualties, hence my response)?



> But your numbers are at best guesswork. You can't say the Thousand Sons grew at so and so rate over the Word Bearers when you don't know what numbers the Word Bearers started with at all or how long the Sons had Magnus before they found Lorgar.


We know the rate of the TS growth based on yours and given numbers. I made what I feel is a fair estimate of Word Bearers starting numbers based on given information. While it is true that we don't know how long it was between the two legions being reunited with their primarchs we also don't know that Magnus could make them faster or that the Word Bearers weren't already recruiting from other worlds.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Thousand Sons are stated to have been devestated by the flesh change. The numbers I used were created based on my impression of the kinds of casualties that would have to be sustained in order for it to be considered 'drastic'. Feel free to disagree but unless the difference is less than 500 men (hardly drastic casulaties) the ratio still favours the Sons.


How so? You are still basing it off inaccurate numbers. I doubt the Thousand Sons where as large as they where fifty years before the Heresy. See my point about the Word Bearers and Monarchia.

And the problems where more based off the fact that the Sons geneseed was unreliable and destroying them slowly. Just being small would not have had them scrapped. It had to be more than that.



MEQinc said:


> A head start of a few decades at most (the crusade took only 200 years and most of the Primarchs were found fairly quickly). Which is roughly the maturation rate of an astartes.


No it's not. 200 years is not the maturation rate of an Astartes. Again, you are operating on numbers that are subjective. We also don't know when the Primarchs where founded or how early they where. Indeed, Magnus is implied to have been found a century after the start of the Crusade. 



MEQinc said:


> Nowhere is Magnus said to have an understanding of the technology required to create or alter astartes. He bargined with Tzeentch to take away the flesh change but I have never heard of greater understanding coming out of that.


I always thought that with a Primarch more genestock could be produced since they had the orignal to correct any flaws.



MEQinc said:


> And the Word Bearers are stated to be one of the slowest progressing legions. Your point (I think it was casualties, hence my response)?


In conquests, but that doesn't mean they did't fight less than the Sons. Much of their work was pacification.



MEQinc said:


> We know the rate of the TS growth based on yours and given numbers. I made what I feel is a fair estimate of Word Bearers starting numbers based on given information.


No, you used had them growing from 1,000+ to 100,000 in 200 years. That is most likely incorrect. The 100,000 mark was given fifty years before the heresy when the Word Bearers where at Monarchia. Obviously the Wolrd Bearers would have grown then. (and yes we would factor in theBrotherhood purges, but it remains highly subjective

I believe at the time of the Heresy the Word Bearers where signifcantly more than 100,000 Astartes.



MEQinc said:


> While it is true that we don't know how long it was between the two legions being reunited with their primarchs we also don't know that Magnus could make them faster or that the Word Bearers weren't already recruiting from other worlds.


Except Magnus most likely was not making them faster, based off on the information we have. You can't really apply that kind of math to something that is quite subjective.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Except the TS numbers where based off of the 10,000 men per Legion model that McNeill wrote in all his Heresy novels. The Luna Wolves, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, etc, etc. All where roughly around 10,000 men.
> 
> If they are being increased then obviously the Thousand Sons would be too.


This is something that can be played off though. McNeill never specifies the number of any of the legions except for the starting numbers of the Emperor's Children 200 and the Thousand Sons' 1000 during the start of the crusade. The few tens of thousands on the Istvaan's could merely be explained due to the beginning number during a start of a battle. No one sends their entire force all at once. Even during the burning of Prospero it was done by waves.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> This is something that can be played off though. McNeill never specifies the number of any of the legions except for the starting numbers of the Emperor's Children 200 and the Thousand Sons' 1000 during the start of the crusade. .


Actually those where based off the Index Astartes articles which mentioned those numbers. Of course the Index Astartes articles operated under the 10,000 Legion model.



ckcrawford said:


> The few tens of thousands on the Istvaan's could merely be explained due to the beginning number during a start of a battle. No one sends their entire force all at once. Even during the burning of Prospero it was done by waves.


I don't know. The numbers seemed quite consistant to me.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> Actually those where based off the Index Astartes articles which mentioned those numbers. Of course the Index Astartes articles operated under the 10,000 Legion model.


I'm not sure, so I'll take your word for it. The thing is that they are also put into ink in the Heresy. Which can't be errased. So for the Heresy sakes they can write it off as such. I mean, isn't that what the Thousand Sons are called Thousand Sons? Because there were a thousand of them?




Gree said:


> I don't know. The numbers seemed quite consistant to me.


I didn't understand what you meant by this. They were consistent but not specific. Referring to tens of thousands here and there. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't take away from the 100,000 point. Due to the fact that its not specific. So it could go either way.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm not sure, so I'll take your word for it. The thing is that they are also put into ink in the Heresy. Which can't be errased. So for the Heresy sakes they can write it off as such. I mean, isn't that what the Thousand Sons are called Thousand Sons? Because there were a thousand of them?


Because that made a cool theme back during the days of Index Astartes and Second and third Edition. However when GW decided to retcon Legions into a larger size that caused a problem obviously.



ckcrawford said:


> I didn't understand what you meant by this. They were consistent but not specific. Referring to tens of thousands here and there. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't take away from the 100,000 point. Due to the fact that its not specific. So it could go either way.


Well I myself never really got the 'wave'' impression. I'm sorry if I confused you, but I was more talking about my opinion. McNeill has shown his prefrence for the 10,000 man number before.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Shit! This is just fucking confusing. I don't understand why the heck GW would just all of a sudden change the fact some legions are just fucking small. It just sounds really stupid to change all the fluff so that the Thousand Sons can look more powerful than they really are. 

These fuckers (Thousand Sons) are fucken it up for the rest of us.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> What the fuck do you think the sisters were there for? The entire point of their presence was to level the playing field and prevent them from using psychic powers, IOW forcing the sons to fight on the wolves terms. I'm sorry, but I don't recall Magnus shutting down their powers, well the combat abilities, during the fighting.
> And you keep bitching about external support during the battle on the wolves part.... you are aware the entire time the sons were being helped by tzeentch right?


dude...World Eaters are blessed by Khorne. Are you going to count Khorne as an "ally" whenever World Eaters go to battle? It makes far more sense to count the blessings as an attribute of the World Eaters. Do you see where I'm going? It's not analogous at all to having another military order help you out. 

The SW were able to win when everything was stacked in their favor. Everything was stacked in their favor not because they imposed their will or forced the TS to fight on their terms...the SW had the advantage because Magnus dealt a severe blow to his own legion's defensive capability and the Imperium went out of its way to make sure that the SW had Sisters and Custodes to back them up on this special mission 

*my opinion is no less valid than your own: the battle of Prospero didn't show how good the Wolves were, it showed that they managed not to fu ck up when victory was handed to them on a silver platter*


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> dude...World Eaters are blessed by Khorne. Are you going to count Khorne as an "ally" whenever World Eaters go to battle? It makes far more sense to count the blessings as an attribute of the World Eaters. Do you see where I'm going? It's not analogous at all to having another military order help you out.


Why not? It is an exterior source of help that cannot be counted on every time. Besides, tzeentch was the only reason they were able to use those powers, without him they would suffer the change. If you are trying to make a legion to legion comparison then either exclude the help of tzeentch or count the help of the imperium for the wolves.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> *my opinion is no less valid than your own: the battle of Prospero didn't show how good the Wolves were, it showed that they managed not to fu ck up when victory was handed to them on a silver platter*


I don't really think that was the main point of the battle. At least in my eyes, it seemed that the Thousand Sons relied heavily on those special warp abilites they were gifted with. Faced with incredible odds, they had to use them, but never the less they spelled their ultimate doom when those individuals that could use them spawned.


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