# How Competitive are Dark Angels?



## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

What do you think? i personally think theyre reasonably balanced, and distinguishable from other armies. However those of the powergaming persuasion wil think that theyre a load of shit because of the combat squads and other rules? 

What are your thoughts?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I think they can be quite competative, but that is not due to any experience with them. Just what I have read in the codex however leads me to believe that.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I think they can be as i've stated elsewhere and when BA and Chaos get dealt with i think we will see the gap shorten between armies like DA and other tournie builds. Of course then Marines will become the "Power" list but at least the gap will be smaller.

Dont be disheartened by our game on sunday, alot of things went against you and you were facing a very difficult army for you to deal with. I think there were a few changes to the tactics and possibly list you could make that would probably mean you could have a much closer game.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

First of all we need a baseline- a centrepoint.

I'd argue that Codex SM's, Mech Tau, Eldar are that centrepoint, with IW's and BA hideously high above it, and the rest of the armies somewhere below them.

The DA have become more competitive against GEq's more as a side effect than as an intention.
GW idea of creating balance, is to take what works and make it more expensive/restricted in the hope what doesn't will be used.

In other words, with power fists, heavy bolters, lascannons, plasmaguns, assault cannons more expensive or restricted- the DA must look elsewhere. To the Autocannon Predator, to Bikes, to Razorbacks.

This means they will have more anti-GEq firepower as a side effect.
The Eldar suffered the same by nerfing the starcannon, less anti-MEq so go to Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser, etc- which has the side effect of being better against GEq.

The downside of course is they are far worse against MEq's- the 'stuff that worked', roughly translates as 'the stuff that best killed MEq's' because like it or not, that is what you will face most often.
With all this stuff more expensive and restricted the DA suffer compared to SM's.

Since MEq's are the most common enemy, I'd argue DA are lower on the power curve than my centrepoint given above.


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

An army of termies is not something I wanna go up against.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

ummm, no...

Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are *extremely* effective against MEQ now


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> ummm, no...
> 
> Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are extremely effective against MEQ now


Exactly how do they revolve around plasma? And how do they utilise It within a competitive environment? :? 
At the end of the day Codex SM, BT's, Tau and Eldar are all 'new' codex's so when comparing DA's I'm afraid to say there's a big shortfall on the competitive front, If Jervis brings the BA's, Chaos etc In line with the DA's then all will scream beard when Tau and Eldar start to dominate tournaments for the next few years.


> An army of termies is not something I wanna go up against.


A codex SM termie army with 10 scouts and twin assault cannons, or a Lysander bomb Is surely more scarier though? :wink:
It's a shame Phil Kelly didn't have a hand In the codex, as It stands I think the Eldar codex has set a great standard for a balanced codex, heres hoping Chaos, Orks and the BA's follow suit.....


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> ummm, no...
> 
> Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are extremely effective against MEQ now


ummm, no...

Their plasmaguns are 50% more expensive than *every other SM army*.
They must have 10 men to get a Tactical plasma cannon rather than the usual 5 (or more 6).

So explain to me again how DA are centered around plasma?

It's what I love about Heresy Online, a lot of posturing about a subject without any real knowledge.
Let me guess, are you doing an 'uber' and not even reading the DA Codex before commenting?


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

havent seen uber in a while. im sure he has something delightful to say about this though.

DA are not centered around plasma any more than any other army at the moment in my opinion. even if they were i wouldnt take plasma cannons as theyre reasonably expensive and still get hot.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Aye, blast weapons in particular have become worse in 4th Ed- because instead of placing for the most possible hits, you must place the centre hole on a model. So a half-decent opponent just spreads his squads out.

Then as you say, there's the Gets Hot- tolerable on a plasmagun. But losing a plasma cannon to your own fire...

Then there's the fact DA must have 10xman to get a Tactical Plasma Cannon.

Or in a Dev squad either have a fragile 5xman squad or again 10xman.



> DA are not centered around plasma any more than any other army at the moment in my opinion.


I'd argue the contrary to blk's statement- DA are less plasma orientated than any other SM army. They pay more and can't fit as many in.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I'm editing this so that I'm not as hot headed as Jeridian (who seemed to have to correct me twice)

You want to tell me I don't do my own research, sir?

Tactial Squad- +5 points for plasma 
Bike - also +5
Dreadnought - regular marines can't have one, DA's get them as a free upgrade
Devastators - -10 points

*this is from AB and not the codex so if I'm wrong let me know (in a civil way, jeridian) as I don't have the money to buy EVERY codex to memorize

So between the Dreads and the Devs, you are getting a break on plasma. So they are centered on plasma much more than they were before, which is a signature of the Dark Angels. If you don't like plasma, don't play them.

I also wrote 2 lists on AB, one DA and one SM:

Chaplain on bike with combi-plasma
5 Terminators/Deathwing
2 Dreadnoughts put plasma on the DA, MM one the other for similar weapon comparison
3 X 10 Tactical Squads basic plasma gun and cannon
5 Bikes/Ravenwing with an attack bike addition, 2 plasma and one MM on the attack bike
2 X 5 Devastators with 4 Plasma each

The space marine list came up exactly 95 points shorter in points than the DA list, but the DA list has a few more benefits in different units than the regular SM list does and the DA list fit 2 more plasma cannons on the Dreads that the SM can't have. All in all, I'd say they are equal, but the codex overall allows the DA player to have a few more Plasma Cannons on an equal basis.

NO PLAYER i have ever spoken too except those that min/max on a regular basis have complained about the combat squads, and in fact nearly all of them have breathed a sigh of relief on seeing them.

GW finally has started making armies that coordinate with their fluff and people still manage to find ways to complain. It is silly to say they aren't competitive when I've seen it from the 3 long time DA players in my area (one has a full color tattoo of the DA chapter symbol on his forearm).

Also, so this doesn't turn into the behavior of other forums, Jeridians attack on Uber was pretty uncalled for as he had nothing to do with mine and his point. That shouldn't be tolerated. I NEVER agree with Uber's viewpoints, but I don't slam him when he wasn't involved.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> I'm editing this so that I'm not as hot headed as Jeridian (who seemed to have to correct me twice)


I apologise, it's the general attitude I've adopted on HO.

Whether it be the Sisters Tactica proclaiming to be the best Sisters player evar...which turned out to be the worst Sister list written and not even a Tactica.

Or ubers proclamation on the DA Codex without even reading it.

Or the claim that mass Guardians is an uber Eldar army, etc.

It's just the general boasting backed up by very bad game knowledge- it may have worked on the GW Forums but here people know how to play.

Again, I'm not directing a personal attack on you blk, of the example statements, yours is the least ridiculous (a compliment) and you've backed it up with a further argument (rather than try to shout louder with fingers in ears).

Anyway:



> Tactial Squad- +5 points for plasma
> Bike - also +5
> Dreadnought - regular marines can't have one, DA's get them as a free upgrade
> Devastators - -10 points


Dreadnoughts don't get it free, they are 20pts more expensive than SM Dreads. True that SM Dreads can't get plasma cannons....but with the aforementioned nerfing of blast weapons, who wants them.

Also the general increase of Dread cost is a downer.

Dev's again may get them cheaper- but your stuck in either a 5 man squad or a 10 man. Call it min/maxing if I take 8xman with 4 plasma. But those extra 2 bolter Marines and unneeded Vet Sgt are pts a normal SM army can spend on more plasmaguns, other units.

I've not been a fan of static firepower for quite a while. Terrain and mobility neuter static units when faced by competent mobile armies.

So the only good plasma for me is mobile plasma, i.e. plasmaguns.

As for the SM/DA army list:

A Space Marine list wouldn't and couldn't take PC Dreads- they'd take double plasmagun in multiple 8xman with fist Tacticals instead in Rhino, or Infiltrate, or Drop Pod.
They could back this up with an 8xman Assault Squad with 5pt plasma pistols instead of the 10xman DA with 15pt plasma pistols...



> NO PLAYER i have ever spoken too except those that min/max on a regular basis have complained about the combat squads, and in fact nearly all of them have breathed a sigh of relief on seeing them.


Well my mum says different....unsubstantiated majority claims don't win net arguments. I can't prove these people exist anymore than you can prove I didn't send out a poll to 100 gamers and found they did find Combat Squads poor.



> GW finally has started making armies that coordinate with their fluff and people still manage to find ways to complain. It is silly to say they aren't competitive when I've seen it from the 3 long time DA players in my area (one has a full color tattoo of the DA chapter symbol on his forearm).


GW has decided halfway through an edition to shift the power level down several notches. I'd like the DA Codex if it was in fact the start of 5th Ed and/or the next SM Codex, with something to bring the older Codex's in line with it.
But as it stands Codex SM's is standing behind the weany DA Codex, laughing with it's mates Codex Chaos, Codex Eldar and Codex Tau at how weedy DA is.



> Also, so this doesn't turn into the behavior of other forums, Jeridians attack on Uber was pretty uncalled for as he had nothing to do with mine and his point. That shouldn't be tolerated. I NEVER agree with Uber's viewpoints, but I don't slam him when he wasn't involved.


 :roll:


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Jeridian said:


> But as it stands Codex SM's is standing behind the weany DA Codex, laughing with it's mates Codex Chaos, Codex Eldar and Codex Tau at how weedy DA is.


Now codices are sentient?  j/k

Most of what you gave me is what I gave you, it's your own opinion based on your experience and the facts of the codex (the numbers). We both came up with valid opinions, I believe in how we see it. You don't like static armies, which is fine, but some still use a static firing line (not me so much, I like a bit of both). So in different ways, a lot of people are finding the new codex a breath of fresh air, while some are finding it a pox on humanity. Not saying either is right or wrong, they have a right to that. But to blatantly say that "This is not competetive!" when thats not a fact is silly. People have found it competitive, and use the new list very well.

And dogging the forum really isn't neccessary either, as you're going to get good and bad behavior anywhere you go. This one has been on very good behavior and hasn't needed moderation nearly as much as others. And thats a good thing.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> So between the Dreads and the Devs, you are getting a break on plasma.


Sorry mate, but you're completely ignoring Codex marines main source of plasma. It certainly ain't Dread's and devs, its tac squads. 8-man cleanse and purify dual plasma (maybe plasma pistol too), 6-8 man las/plas. Codex dreads don't really need plasma cannons when they can have las or ass cannons as well. Ass cannons will kill more marines than a plasma cannon anyway unless they're clumped.

DAngles pay more for plasma in tac squads by having to pay for 2-4 extra men and the mandatory vet sarge.

That list you put up can be done using tac squads to pack in more plasma without having to rely on plasma cannons which just aren't as good IMO. 
This isn't a particular rant v. DA, I just don't agree with your analysis.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> People have found it competitive, and use the new list very well.


Who are these people and what are these lists?

I said DA are more competitive against GEq not less.
I said DA are less competitive against MEq.

Unfortunately MEq outnumbers GEq a lot.

Hence my conclusion that DA is less competitive than SM's overall.

This is of course based on personal experience, and the views of others I know- which I can't prove. I can't prove that they are very good players who attend multiple tournaments including GT's and rank high either.



> And dogging the forum really isn't neccessary either, as you're going to get good and bad behavior anywhere you go. This one has been on very good behavior and hasn't needed moderation nearly as much as others. And thats a good thing.


I think this forums great, it doesn't have the anal Mod power trip like Warseer can or B&C does. Heresy Online gives us a little more leash to put a point across without walking on egg shells and worrying if we make little Timmy cry.

I'm just of the opinion advertising for members on the GW Forum was a bad idea- those Forums where hideous and encouraged members to smack talk and boast about stuff they have little knowledge off (again not directed at you).

The infamous Sisters Tactica and the 'the DA are very competitive, your all power gamers talking bollocks.....I haven't actually read the DA Codex.....but I still know more than those that have...' being prime examples.



> DAngles pay more for plasma in tac squads by having to pay for 2-4 extra men and the mandatory vet sarge.


Don't forget the Plasmagun costs more as well.

I'd argue DA are more Melta related- as it is often smarter to take Melta over Plasma. In Bike squads (you really want a Bike to overheat and die?), Tacticals, etc.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

> I'm just of the opinion advertising for members on the GW Forum was a bad idea


Thats good because for heresy-online that never happened. We didn't start the forum till after the GW ones had gone kapput so no advertising there at all for us.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2. You can pack it in obviously, but you do pay more for it. That doesn't mean that it can't be overcome by a decent combined arms approach, played well by a competant general, and looking at the list it seems to me the obvious approach and aim of the list. The list plays very differently to codex marines, so direct comparisions don't mean much. The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> Thats good because for heresy-online that never happened. We didn't start the forum till after the GW ones had gone kapput so no advertising there at all for us.


Meh, it must have just been the general exodus of GW Forum Members when they closed, like a plague of the uneducated masses- :lol: 



> My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2. You can pack it in obviously, but you do pay more for it. That doesn't mean that it can't be overcome by a decent combined arms approach, played well by a competant general, and looking at the list it seems to me the obvious approach and aim of the list. The list plays very differently to codex marines, so direct comparisions don't mean much. The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.


Agreed on the AP 2. As I said before, the same happened to Eldar- their AP 2 was severely curtailed- forcing them to take the other route of mutliple shot AP 4+. Instead of burning MEq without a save, Eldar/DA must force enough saves to cause the same damage.

This has the side effect of making them better against hordes like Orks, IG, Nids, etc. than they where before.


Have to disagree about the inability to compare with Codex SM.
Even though DA and BT are stand alone Codex's now- they will always look to Codex SM as a 'parent' list, a benchmark.

First of all you have the die-hards- the people who will play DA because they love DA, the same kind of people that still play White Scars or Raven Guard...unfortunately these people are exceptionally rare.

Then you have those that like DA but will still look back to the SM Codex- to see if they can better reflect their army style whilst still using the DA colour scheme and background. This isn't just about powergaming- a lot is to do with the removal of flexibility and variety in unit and wargear choice. 
These people are in the majority.

Then you have the power gamers, WAAC'ers etc.



> The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.


I have, and they performed as I expected- you have to work your balls off to scrape a draw against MEq- (against a balanced Chaos list).
And get your ass handed to you by power lists (facing the BA army of doom- 10 DC with Chappie, 3 6xman las/plas, 3 Pred Annihilator, Fury Libby, Assault Squad).

I've yet to try them against GEq or Skimmer Armies- hopefully they'll do better.

I'd put DA at a power level on a par with IG, Cult Chaos armies. Competitive in friendly games.

Above Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, Orks, BT.

Below IW's, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, SM's.

This is not necessarily a bad thing- I'd like the IG and DA to be the benchmark that all future Codex's are balanced against.

But for the forseeable future the majority of armies and players will be more competitive than every new release- and I don't think GW has the commitment to watch the gamer backlash as each army is nerfed, with older armies raising in power by comparison.

If GW had released Codex SM's in this format- I'd have no 'better' Codex to compare to when writing a list.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

For general interest I started a thread elsewhere about thoughts and tactics for DA. The reply and semi-batrep from Mannahnin was interesting and is the first internet account I've read of DA being used well and successfully. Jeridian will recognise the successful use of the scout'n'drop tactic I suggested elsewhere.

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=27846



> My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2.


Same happened for Eldar as has been mentioned. They've had to adapt by forcing lots of saves. If DA are better vs. GEQ, then maybe lists of multi-shot doom can be worked out for them while maintaining a modicum of AP2 and tank hunting in there. 3

3 Autcannon preds would be a good start, as would heavy bolter attack bikes. Mobile Anti-infantry in bikes and preds, mobile AT in the form of MM speeders and melta bikes, anyone thought of just going for 10-man bolter only marines in rhinos a la Dire Avengers in Serpents? Less mobile obviously, but probably cheaper, certainly more survivable and you can pack in a plasma gun and plasma pistol for the vet. A 5-man termie squad with ass cannon and cc mix could be useful for assault after the turn of rapid firing/overwhelming attack. Anyone fancy coming up with a list like that to see what you can fit in 1500?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

well I have found my DA force to be much more competitive than my previous basic marine force, combat squads definetly has great uses, especially on scouts and devvie squads, 

the downgrade of characters has made them a surprise for most enemies expecting a huge wad of points, then finding it was a waste of time and now his special anti character squad is surrounded by 50 marines, all for 100pts worth of character HAHA, 

the emphasis on units is brilliant and my tactical squads are much better than marine ones, Kraks for free, hell yes, pistols make them very competitive, shooting before the charge, very nice

In all I find the new codex very good and competetive, and anyone who says it ain't most likely has no experience with it, or uses it wrong


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> the downgrade of characters has made them a surprise for most enemies expecting a huge wad of points,


Do many people spaff tons of points on characters any more? :? Aside from Chaos, most players try to minimise the amount of non-scoring I thought. 

I spend 140 on mine, but he'll likely kill back around his points in marines anyway (4-5 casualties on the charge=half a squad or a whole half combat squad), not to mention any tanks he gets. I'd expect characters like a jump pack chappie to do bad things to basic marines as well, so I doubt its a vast trade off.

Anti-character squads? :?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

anathema said:


> > the downgrade of characters has made them a surprise for most enemies expecting a huge wad of points,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> In all I find the new codex very good and competetive, and anyone who says it ain't most likely has no experience with it, or uses it wrong


 :roll: 

Next time I'd suggest using terrain in your games. With the correct (25%) amount of terrain spread about the centre with a large portion level 3.

You should find static units like your Dev's just don't cut it.



> Jeridian will recognise the successful use of the scout'n'drop tactic I suggested elsewhere.





> Chaplain on bike
> Librarian in Termie armor
> 3 bikes, vet with fist
> 3 bikes, 2 melta
> ...


You really think that would be competitive in store Dave?

I can see the trick- Scout Bikes up a flank- turn 1 bring down the first Termie and Libby squad near them. Use the Bikes to hold a unit in position for counter-charge next turn by Termies.

In my game against Matt's (Starwars) BA I was suprised how long my Attack Bike and Bikes endured combat. This was admittedly because they had no power fists. 

I'd argue more often that the Bikes would be fisted, or the very least- the opponent would move to eliminate the Termies in their intermediate turn, or move the rest of their army out of range- sacrificing the unit in combat with the Bikes.
Or charge the Bikes, hope to wipe them out and consolidate out of range of the Termies.
Or 50% of the time get turn 1 and move to kill the Bikes or get into a position 18" away (so DS termies aren't in range even if the Bikes drive in a charge).

Aside from that one-trick pony, it's sub-par IMO. Tactical vets with fist and plasma pistol- you do know thats a 70pt model.

I'm sorry I can't be optimistic, or bring stories of DA success- but I haven't seen any yet.


Anyway, not sure if I've already posted my DA list on this site- but I'll put my money where my mouth is:

HQ	
Captain Jeridian	1xCompany Master- Bolt pistol, power sword, iron halo, frags, krak. Fearless.	115
-Command Squad	5xVeterans- 2xFlamer. 3xChainsword. Frags, krak, bolt pistols. Fearless	115
-Razorback APC	1xRazorback- Twin-heavy bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	50

Troops	
Tactical Squad I	10xSpace Marines- 7xBolters. 1xPlasmagun. 1xMulti-melta. Frags, krak, bolt pistols.	215
1xVeteran Sergeant- Bolt pistol, power fist.	
-Rhino APC	1xRhino- Storm bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	35

Tactical Squad II	10xSpace Marines- 7xBolters. 1xPlasmagun. 1xMulti-melta. Frags, krak, bolt pistols.	215
1xVeteran Sergeant- Bolt pistol, power fist.	
-Rhino APC	1xRhino- Storm bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	35

Tactical Squad III	5xSpace Marines- 3xBolters. 1xMeltagun. Frags, krak, bolt pistols.	100
1xVeteran Sergeant- Bolter.	
-Razorback APC	1xRazorback- Twin-heavy bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	50

Fast Attack	

Ravenwing Attack Squadron	3xBikes- 2xMeltagun. Twin-linked bolters, bike, teleport homer, frag, krak. Fearless.	190
1xVeteran Sergeant- Bolt pistol.	
1xAttack Bike- Multi-melta, twin-linked bolter, bolt pistol, frags, krak, teleport homer. 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron	3xBikes- 2xMeltagun. Twin-linked bolters, bike, teleport homer, frag, krak. Fearless.	190
1xVeteran Sergeant- Bolt pistol.	
1xAttack Bike- Multi-melta, twin-linked bolter, bolt pistol, frags, krak, teleport homer. 

Heavy Support	

Predator Tank	1xPredator- Autocannon, 2xheavy bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	95

Predator Tank	1xPredator- Autocannon, 2xheavy bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight.	95

Total:	1500

It packs a lot more anti-GEq firepower than my usual SM list by side effect rather than default. I've done what I think Jervis and Games Dev are trying to force people to do with Codex DA- throw out the old toys (plasma, fists, lascannons, assault cannons) and dust of the neglected stuff (bikes, rhinos, autocannons).

But against MEq's it lacks AP 2 and assault power.
Against vehicle heavy it lacks the lascannons and must rely on melta at close range to deal with them.

I've yet to face Eldar or GEq's with this list- and hope it will do better.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> You really think that would be competitive in store Dave?


Not saying that, but its the first instance of winning DA I've read and against a guy who I gather is pretty good from the US. Its interesting if nothing else. I personally think I've got the tools in my list to deal with it and I reckon quite a few of the others would too, but it would be interesting to try playing it.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

> Not saying that, but its the first instance of winning DA I've read and against a guy who I gather is pretty good from the US. Its interesting if nothing else. I personally think I've got the tools in my list to deal with it and I reckon quite a few of the others would too, but it would be interesting to try playing it.


I think DA will become an underdog army, one someone brings out every now and again if they want a challenge....

...problem for me is I already have an army like that.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Jeridian said:


> :roll:
> 
> Next time I'd suggest using terrain in your games. With the correct (25%) amount of terrain spread about the centre with a large portion level 3.
> 
> You should find static units like your Dev's just don't cut it.


Anyone who has ever played in a Rogue Trader or Grand Tournament know that this is never the case. Any store will have to spread out their terrain over many tables, and Grand Tourneys normally have just hills with maybe one or two LOS blocking terrain pieces, definatley not a deterrant for using dev squads.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

> HQ
> Captain Jeridian 1xCompany Master- Bolt pistol, power sword, iron halo, frags, krak. Fearless. 115
> -Command Squad 5xVeterans- 2xFlamer. 3xChainsword. Frags, krak, bolt pistols. Fearless 115
> -Razorback APC 1xRazorback- Twin-heavy bolter, smoke launchers, searchlight. 50
> ...


well there are alot of grey area's in the list IMO that i just wanna address.

Chaptain? Probably the least useful Hq available to a force which could in theory be all fearless. Personally i would go with a chaplain or belial or samael.
Command squad 2 flamers? Again why, your own theory is that the list is more affective now vs Geq so why not melta or plasma?
Ravenwing: you have to have a vet serg so why not give him a fist or pw? At the mo he's the only guy not upgraded and will likely be first cas. I think you'd be better with 6 bikes and splitting one for melta tank hunting and the other as fist delivery.
Tacticals: Multi-meltas???? why aweful weapon for foot troops, even if your rhino's survive and place them in a nice position to use there melta rule then your opp has two options a] blast hell outta you b] move out of range. as its tanks you'll be going for the likely response is move outta range AND blow hell outta you.
Rhino's: why? rhino rush is dead and gone, yes they can be used affectively to deliver certain units into position given the right army composition and terrain, and yes DA pay more like what you should for a coffin with tracks. But still how fo they help the army?


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

First off thanks for the list feedback.



> Chaptain? Probably the least useful Hq available to a force which could in theory be all fearless. Personally i would go with a chaplain or belial or samael.


First, I'd quit before I'd stoop to Special Characters- personal taste.

Another personal taste is to have a leader lead and army, rather than a priest. Everyone and his dog takes Chaplains.

I don't see many circumstance where I would get the charge anyway- without Assault Squads most of my stuff is rapid firing having jumped from transports.

So aside from the Chappie, the Captain is the cheapest HQ I can get (and still not as cheap as I'd like).



> Command squad 2 flamers? Again why, your own theory is that the list is more affective now vs Geq so why not melta or plasma?


DA are more effective against GEq precisely because it's often better to equip with anti-GEq weapons.
Instead I could have 1 Meltagun- not taking advantage of the 2 special weapons ability. I could take 1 plasmagun, but would have to pay more and have a unit with bolt pistols and chainswords unable to charge after firing its special weapon.

I figured I'd need at least one unit to deal with Rangers or Kroot, and only flamers can effectively shift them.



> Ravenwing: you have to have a vet serg so why not give him a fist or pw? At the mo he's the only guy not upgraded and will likely be first cas. I think you'd be better with 6 bikes and splitting one for melta tank hunting and the other as fist delivery


Because power fist and sword are already prohibitively expensive, because the Ravenwing units already lack ablative bodies without making the Sgt valuable.
He will be the first casualty- if I had the choice I wouldn't upgrade to a Vet. They're Fearless so his Ld 9 bonus is irrelevant. 

By having only 1 6xman squad instead of 2 3xman I can then only have 1 Attack bike instead of 2.

Finally, I question the durability of using Bikes as a close combat unit- to an enemy fist they are just a unit of 3 Tactical Marines, how well do 3xman assault squads do...



> Tacticals: Multi-meltas???? why aweful weapon for foot troops, even if your rhino's survive and place them in a nice position to use there melta rule then your opp has two options a] blast hell outta you b] move out of range. as its tanks you'll be going for the likely response is move outta range AND blow hell outta you.


I agree, a friend commented that I seemed to be deliberately sabotaging my DA list just to prove my point. If I was taking this to a tournament they would be swopped for Missile Launchers without a second thought.
But I have the Multi-melta models already painted up, and figured if I wanted to use them there wasn't many other circumstance I would.

In half my games it will be Escalation- so the squad is 10xman, so generally I will not sit still and never fire the MM/ML. It is a just in case, if I could I'd take a Heavy Bolter at 5pts but in the DA Codex it costs the same as a MM or a ML (god knows why) so I might as well take one of them.



> Rhino's: why? rhino rush is dead and gone, yes they can be used affectively to deliver certain units into position given the right army composition and terrain, and yes DA pay more like what you should for a coffin with tracks. But still how fo they help the army?


Target saturation- I already have 2 predators, 2 Razorbacks. For the past few months I've been using Mech Sisters with 4 Rhinos- so I guess I like Mechanised armies. I know and have been most vocal about the nerfing of transports- how redundant they are with Infiltrate and Deep Strike so cheap, freely available and guaranteed to be in mission.

The DA don't have access to Infiltrating Tacticals, etc and the Rhino's are dirt cheap.
As I stated on my list- I tried to throw out the old favourites and take advantage of any bonuses I could find that DA get over SM's. Cheaper Rhino's and Razorbacks are one of the few things I can find.

Thanks again for the advice.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Jeridian said:


> > In all I find the new codex very good and competetive, and anyone who says it ain't most likely has no experience with it, or uses it wrong
> 
> 
> :roll:
> ...


Yes cus I only ever fight on open ground and my entire battleplan relies solely on 1 squad :lol: :lol: :lol: yeah right, considering the devvies are the ONLY unit in my army (apart from snipers) that stand still, therefore I do not quite understand your point at all.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> Yes cus I only ever fight on open ground and my entire battleplan relies solely on 1 squad yeah right, considering the devvies are the ONLY unit in my army (apart from snipers) that stand still, therefore I do not quite understand your point at all.


Any chance of seeing your list Stella? I keep hearing about these compepetive lists that have done well but It would be nice to at least see ONE of them! :wink: 
From what I've seen on other forums and from reading the codex IF I was to go with DA's I'd most likely go down the specialised Ravenwing route with something similar to the list below. Fast, maneuverable, potentially lethal but equally fragile as hell!

HQ - Sammael - jet bike.

Troops - Ravenwing Squad - 6 bikes with 2 meltaguns, vet with power fist.
- Attack Bike - multi-melta.
- Landspeeder - heavy bolter, assault cannon.

Troops - Ravenwing Squad - 6 bikes with 2 meltaguns, vet with power fist.
- Attack Bike - multi-melta.
- Landspeeder - heavy bolter, assault cannon.

Fast - Ravenwing Squad - 6 bikes with two plasmaguns, vet with power fist.
standard and apothecary.

Fast - Landspeeder - heavy bolter, typhoon launcher.

Fast - Landspeeder - heavy bolter, typhoon launcher.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LongBeard said:


> > Yes cus I only ever fight on open ground and my entire battleplan relies solely on 1 squad yeah right, considering the devvies are the ONLY unit in my army (apart from snipers) that stand still, therefore I do not quite understand your point at all.
> 
> 
> Any chance of seeing your list Stella? I keep hearing about these compepetive lists that have done well but It would be nice to at least see ONE of them! :wink:
> ...


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree with Jeridan guy's! If this is the sign of things to come then you have to think outside to box people. I too hate using special characters! Sammy is good and i actually like Azrael too.

DA's do seem to be more set up for killing Geq than Meq. Perhaps the key here is weight of fire! But i really like the new DA codex. Perhaps im in the minority, but i think character is good! Again, once all the other codex's are brought into line then im sure the DA's will come into their own

MarzM :mrgreen:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

what the devil is GEQ??? another damn blasted abbreviation


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> what the devil is GEQ??? another damn blasted abbreviation


Yes, and I hate abbreviations as well :evil: 

GEQ as far as I know is "Guard Equivalent", I'm guessing Eldar, Guard, Tau, other T3 races


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

I have to admit a number of the DA changes have fallen straight into my style of play and I'm bemused at the high level of moaning about them (Disclaimer- on other sites I have visited), namely:

Characters not being uber-combat monsters with Adamantine Mantle, master-crafter toenail clippers, plasma pistol, terminator honours, kitchen sink.
"I only get 4 attacks- the other Mariens are gonna ownzors me!!!11!!"

Generally I have always gone for cheap as chip- power sword, bolt pistol, combat shield Master- 101pts.
He's good as a defensive/counter-assault unit, launch him against enemy squads with a supporting unit to tie up the power fist.

The only people I've seen truly blinging up their commander and whining when he can't beat a Chaos Lord or Bloodthirster have been, shall we say, inexperienced. He's not meant to be a daemonslayer.

So although I lament the loss of wargear options for the pure variety and flexibility we enjoy (and to catch out noobs with bling fever), the DA forces players to use characters wisely, i.e. cheaply.
I would still choose to drop the Iron Halo for an even cheaper HQ if possible.

The downside of being shoehorned into a list is the distance between noob and vet is shortened, and the fun in trying out various wargear between them is lost.



> DA's do seem to be more set up for killing Geq than Meq. Perhaps the key here is weight of fire! But i really like the new DA codex. Perhaps im in the minority, but i think character is good! Again, once all the other codex's are brought into line then im sure the DA's will come into their own


If all the other Codex's where at the same power level I think the DA Codex is amazing for how much it shakes up the old SM rut (6xman las/plas, Tornado spam, etc), the background, etc.

But it has lost a lot of variety, it has 'use Special Characters' stamped on it with a puppy dog-eyed Jervis on the cover clutching one, and it is far outclassed by all the older Codex's.
Sure, we're assured that Chaos will be 'nerfed', the BA may be curbed, that even Codex SM's will go the way of DA in time- but what of Tau and Eldar?
Tau and Eldar are nowhere near broken like IW's for example, but they are very competitive- easily on the same level as a tough SM list (with the 6xman las/plas, etc), and I don't think GW is going to 'DA-ify them' anytime soon.

So who can guess what the new 'power' armies will be in 2 years time by default?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

blkdymnd said:


> Stella Cadente said:
> 
> 
> > what the devil is GEQ??? another damn blasted abbreviation
> ...


ahh thanks for that, its quicker if people don't use abbreviations, then some people don't have to ask what it means, which takes more time making the point of abbreviations invalid.

and I think people will Find that Dark Angels are more effective against more than Guard equivalent armies, there just as effective against other armies as normal marines are, so I don't see the problem, there marines at heart, so theres little to no difference in there effectiveness against Marine or Guard equivalent forces.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> and I think people will Find that Dark Angels are more effective against more than Guard equivalent armies, there just as effective against other armies as normal marines are, so I don't see the problem, there marines at heart, so theres little to no difference in there effectiveness against Marine or Guard equivalent forces.


The difference in effectiveness against different armies comes down to a lot of what those marines are equipped with. You can't tell me that a unit equipped with heavy bolters and flamers are as effective vs. terminators as a las/plas squad for example. 

The simple fact is that you can pack more AP2 in a codex marine list thatn a DA one as its cheaper. This makes them more suited to fighting heavy armour. The DA can fit more multi-shot AP4- in there as they get points breaks for that. This makes them better at taking on anything not in power armour. 
Now you can potentially use the weight of fire effect a la Eldar to take down marines, but I've yet to see it done.


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

I think you can make a competitive list, but there are maybe only one or two ways to make that list. Either use Death-/Ravenwing combo or a mech-list as rhinos are dirt cheep.

But neither of these lists is as good as the more specialized lists of Tau or Eldar,
for example Marines aren't as good as Eldar when it comes to transports, Rhinos are cheep but not as effective as a Wave serpent. Actually the only army that have worse transports are Orcs, but at least they are opened-toped so they get to charge out of them.

So I would say you have to have some luck and end up playing "the right" opponents in a GT to stand a decent chance.
___

The General problem is the lack of any cheep viable options.
Combat squads are a cool and fluffy thing, but it isn’t a good option compared to SM who get too pick and choose.

So the theory about DA being better at medium strength weapon aren’t right, if I want a heavy bolter I have to pay 175 pts (10 man plus HB) if I play DA.
80 pts if I play SM. OK, so I get 5 more guys and a Vet. sgt.

So the disadvantages are as follows:
1. 6 guys are better then 5 do the math and think before you argue this please.
2. Even if I could take 5 guys and a Heavy bolter in DA it still would be 5 pts more plus the mandatory Vet. sgt. which is another 15pts adding up to 20 pts more then SM version.
3. Combat squads are only good in the case of Ravenwing bikes and Scouts, letting you have more squads with fewer slots. And in the case of scouts only because they now are Elites.
4. Every weapon options are restricted in cost and regulations on when you can take it.
5. Restricted character options.

Advantages:
1. "Free" bolt pistol and grenades
2. Deathwing assault can be nasty.
3. Special characters as a playable option.
4. There are many ways to make units Fearless.

Buts as someone pointed out there will hopefully be a normalization to bring codexes in line and many of the things we see in DA will follow in coming Marines codexes.

Just hope that GW wont cave in to the preasure.


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## Ultima (Jun 16, 2007)

I personally dont think that dark angels are totally uncompetitive but to be honest they are way down the scale in my opinion. Simply because they are vastly inferior to normal SM and simply cannot deal with MEQ very well and basically if you cant kill MEQ you wont go far in a tournament.

This is an obvious highlight of their disadvantages:

HQ: all of them are worse than normal SM commanders. No-one gets an option for terminator honours. Chaplains are more expensive. Librarians dont get 3 wounds and LD10 and they have no choice in psychic powers. The psychic powers they do get are also crap compared to the normal SM ones.

Elites: dreads are more expensive for to be honest no reason. What was ever wrong with dreads being 105? This is apparently compensated by the ability to have a plasma cannon but lets face it, blast weapons are crap.

deathwing are similarly poor. They are fearless for 3pts a model. so? Ld9 with ATSKNF was enough thanks! They also cant take 2 heavy weapons and the assault cannon is more expensive even though the amount of them you can take is restricted

Troops: Tactical squads are worse. Completely inflexible troop sizes. compulsory vet sergeant. PW or PF costs more points. plasma costs more. Lascannon costs more AND you can only have 1 per 10 men..was that not enough of a points increase? 

Not exactly troops but pods are almost twice the points cost

Fast attack: No attack bike squads at all :S

Land speeders now sit at a ridiculous 65pts a pop and only 1 tornado allowed and the upgrade is even more expensive.

Heavy Support: devastators now have inflexible sizes and have to have a compulsory veteran sergeant that no-one in their right midn would pay for if they had the choice.


the apparent advantages of the codex are the 'free bolt pistol and frags etc'....who gives a crap? I dont care that rhinos and razorbacks are cheaper. the reason i didn't take them before is because they were crap not because of their price. 

Plasma cannons are cheaper in devastator squads...so? Who would pay for a 40pt man who could blow himself up especially with the nerfing of blast weapons.

Personally Jeridan for me put it absolutely perfectly when he said that GW were toning down the power level several notches mid edition. I like combat squads because it ties with the fluff. But introducing it to dark angels and blood angels before doing it to the bulk of SM is just stupid.

While i am keeping as open a mind as i can about dark angels being competitive they are simply not as good as regular SM. All of the things that are used to kill MEQ for regular SM has been badly nerfed and no alternatives at all have been put in their place.



> Chaplain on bike
> Librarian in Termie armor
> 3 bikes, vet with fist
> 3 bikes, 2 melta
> ...


Apparently this list is competitive? Against the 'power gamers' at my store no dice. My GT army which i may post upm at some point would tear this apart. 

First off. Troops are off the board in escalation leaving me with the amusing task of killing a few bikes and maybe a unit of terminators turn 1. Simple really. They come anywhere near me i'll rend them to pieces or maybe pulse laser and prism them for fun.

Also terminators with lightning claws? How amusing. It's slow. Nothing that moves at the basic 6 inch move is a viable combat unit in my opinion. Also simple question..whats your initiative? :twisted: 

(im an eldar player if this hasnt been guessed). One thing i will reveal is i have 2 falcons with harlequins in (that is half my army in all fairness lol). But seriously, that army has 7 weapons (not including melee for obvious reasons) that actually have a possible potential to hurt my falcons. Half of which are range 12. Any good or infact mediocre eldar users technical term for fighting an army like this in a tournament is 'birthday'. Quite simply, Eldar will dance around you wittling you down and when you get close, harlequins will close in on any so called combat unit and rip you apart. 1 of the transports will also blatently get blown up before they get in any worthwile position both of them will probably but one is a certainty. If its the rhino you have 200pts of useless marine unit that are entangled and very soon to be dead. If someone wants to prove me wrong i welcome it. I dont ENJOY slagging off armies. However this is my honest and typically cynical view.


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## kelvingreen (May 15, 2007)

Ultima said:


> Fast attack: No attack bike squads at all :S


Dark Angels don't get bikes any more? Really? Wasn't that always one of their trademarks?


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

> Dark Angels don't get bikes any more? Really? Wasn't that always one of their trademarks?


of course they do! not even GW would go as far as to totally fuck up the fluff and organisation of the Dark Angels.


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## kelvingreen (May 15, 2007)

You never know... :wink:


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

kelvingreen said:


> Ultima said:
> 
> 
> > Fast attack: No attack bike squads at all :S
> ...


No Kelvin, Ultima is right, DA no longer get any Attack-bike squadrons, it is strange as BA gets them. They do however get them as upgrades to bike squads.

As to the "How Competitive are Dark Angels?" question; I do believe that the new DA and BA codex’s shows what will become of SM as general, no way SM will be this superior compared to DA and BA.

The thing that make DA cool and effective is the ability to have combat squads and buy additional units, for example when you take bikes you are able to take a land speeder and an attack bike. This is all good and fine if it wasn't for the high cost which makes it impossible to use this advantage.

In a +2000pts battle this pays of as you only need on army and can skip the extra HQ and 2 Troops and buy juicy things like bikes instead.


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