# Vampire Counts VS Daemons, how to win?



## Lordjimbo

Hello all, I have just recently begun playing WFB and i am enjoying it. I am playing useing my friends models and have found his well painted new Vampire Counts army much to my likeing. I have won a decent amount of battles with them (although i think my friends are going easy on me) but ive hit a brick wall fighting against Daemon armies. The tactic i have been useing so far is a magic heavy army with large infantry blocks. With a melee oriented vampire in each large block to rack up kills and enuff troops to out number the foe i usally can break the enemy. I often take mannfred the elder as my army leader as i love both his stats and the fluff. This has worked well enuff but against daemons i just get shredded. Fear doesnt do much and the daemons are awesomely good in close combat. I definitely need army building and tactical advice from the experts. 

A few notes about our games.

We play with 3,000 point armies.

As a house rule we may only have one Lord.

My opponent builds god specific Daemon armies, he has the models for one of each and i dont know which he will use ahead of time.

My opponent alwasy takes a Greater Daemon as his lord.

I have access to all the vampire counts models in large amounts so i can field virtually any army.

I have never fully explored the full use of calvary and am bad at guessing charge ranges.

Any help is appreciated. Example armies are especially helpful.


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## DarknessDawns

im awsome at versing demons, not to blow my own trumpet or anything, but iv only lost like 3 times out of 20 agianst them. and i play VC too
the trick is, dont be afraid of them, bloodletters are crap really.
i usually play mannfred, konrad and a couple more vamps, in 3000 i have a max of 23 power dice, all you need is to hit them hard, take the casualities, then rease them back, deamons cant stand in a lasting combat very well, deny the charge and getting always strike first is very handy, a few tarpit units and your set.


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## Lordjimbo

Interesting, what core units do you recommend i use? You must take at least 4 in a 3000 point army and you have three choices, skellies, zombies and ghouls. Zombies are so easy to raise that it causes me physical pain to consider spending points on them. Skellies i often use because they can take full command and have a cheap banner (war banner) to up the combat res. I usally use them with a vampire who has walking death whose killing power puts me over the top and wins the combat, but as i dont actually auto win if i win the combat i must rethink the tactics i use agaisnt empire and skaven. They are all immune to fear so winning the combat isnt the great victory it normally is. Ghouls are the last choice and i guess ill use them, with 2 poisoned attacks they can do a bit of damage. What do i do with 4 units of them though?

As far as special and rare choices go im shying away from wraiths and banshees, all daemon attacks are magical and they are immune to psyche so right there their greatest advantages turn to poo.

I have never used blood knights but they seem just the thing for demons, what banner would i use though?

Vargulfs are strange to me, they seem great on the surface but their kinda pricey and desolve pretty quick if not supported. they have a unit str of 4, dont you need 5 to negate rank bonus when flanking? i dont have the rulebook handy. Anyway what would the best use of them be when fighting daemons?

What should i do about Greater Daemons? tarpit? should i try to kill them? if so how?

Any feedback is appreciated.


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## Spot The Grot

i do neither of the 2 armies but i think ghouls might be quite good as it means bloodletters don't kill your stuff on 2's also besides their strength etc they are quite fragile so those 2 poisened attacks might be quite worth it not mention it may help against hes greater daemon ( sort of ) .

What deamons does he bring and which greater daemon?


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## Lordjimbo

I think your right about the ghouls.

As far as the greater daemons he has used each one at least once but he tends to usaully bring either a bloodthirster or keeper of secrets.


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## Gharof von Carstein

i think that a unit of blood knights would be a good idea as well, specially in 3k. does he use magic heavy armies? use a black coach! sucky sucky his PD away  i would not take wraiths against daemons, flamers...ieuw...a lot of PD...double ieuw...this also makes sure the varghulf is a no go. so the other 2 rare choices are your best bet. getting big units of black knights might help (7 or more sized) 

btw your bad at guessing charge ranges? you dont have to guess. you know that basically you always start 24 inches from each other. (dont know how you guys set up but measure the table once, you can say its for the purpose of seeing that you guys are at least the 24 inches apart from each other that you have to be as stated in the rulebook. if you keep a keen eye on his tapemeasure or measuring stick you can see how many inches he moves. this means its no longer guessing but just simple math. thats what i always do. this way i know how many inches i can move to not be in charge range and when he is.  make it doubtfull, tilt a unit diagonal so its out of range slighty by about a inch or so. this way hell attempt the charge and you can always countercharge.

not feeling like this as you feel its cheating? (which it absolutly is not) than you still dont have to guess. you think you can make it? do so! even if you fail you can vanhels the units against his units in your magic phase. you just need to make sure they go off. you can do this by pulling his DD away with powerfull spells or a few key IoN's. thats why book of arkhan is just the best item a VC player can use. 

hope this helps!


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## jigplums

I definately prefer ghouls as the core choices, as the extra Toughness is great for absorbing shooting and cc attacks and i'd say against daemon are the obvious choice. You SHOULD be less likely to lose guys as he'll be wounding on 3's with letters and 5's with daemonettes. Also you then have 2 attack per guy so even 3 survivors dis-out 6 attacks that are more likely to wound. Skelies would likely get no save, struggle to hit and are easier to wound.
Against daemons you'll need to wear them down, as they won't autobreak so that extra casualties you will deal out should help much more than the std.
Vargulfs i think are great, and the black coach if your magic heavy could be a worthy investment. Daemons are unlikely to have str7 stuff other than prehaps a bloodthirster with firestorm blade in which case if he has a thirster stay away just incase.

You should have 2-3 units of direwolves Inc doomwolf at 7 models strong against the daemons. These can intercept powerful single models i.e. bloodthirster and challenge. The bloodthirster will then win the combat by the maxium amount[5] and leave 1 direwolf in combat. Then either raise the unit back up[including doomwolf] or intercept with risen zombies to tie it up indefinately.

Blackguard and blackknights can be useful vs daemons as agian they are that bit tougher and more surviveable than your core units, plus can deal out more damage, especially when given some of the banners[+1 to hit and hatred banner are both awesome]


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## jax40kplyr

I wouldn't necessarily say that the Bloodthirster in a challenge with a unit of direwolves will leave one left over - challenges, gets 5 overkill wounds, then combat res at the end of combat he outnumbers so there goes the additional wolf. Of course, mitigated by causing that many wounds and being outside of BSB.
Played VC twice at the last tournament I was at and combat res is definately the way to go. 
The guy who won it though created the uber-black knight unit combo which is something to think about (in a 2250 list)

14 Black Knights with Flaming Banner
Tooled up VC Lord
Wight King with Reg Banner

An additional Black Knight unit was running around as well, supported by the Hatred Banner and a regular vampire with Helm of Commandment running behind it. Couple of units of direwolves running on the flanks, with a unit of wraiths popping around and zombies making up the core choices.

Implications of strategies like this: With the number of casting dice, hitting power and the fact that uber units like this don't die, really the worst you can do with the army is a draw (unless you fail a look-out sir roll and your general takes a cannonball to the face). We totalled it up and there was something like 1400 points tied up in the one black knight unit. My daemons got decimated - unless you happen to get lucky with some magic or tie it up with an unbreakable unit in a challenge, not sure a whole lot can stand up to it.


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## doomlanger

hey!
some good advice in there already.
i go for the all the "all the eggs in one basket" against daemons. i take a tooled up vampire lord with red fury etc on a barded nightmare in a unit of 5 blood knights including a bsb with the drakenhof banner and red fury etc. the blood knights get the banner of blood keep. i'm generally getting enough strength 7 attacks with re-rolls for whatever reason (van hals, red fury, infinite hatred etc) to bring down anything, and the 2+ save plus 4+ ward and regenerate soaks up anything tzeentch can chuck at me. this unit costs over 1000pts but it easily makes it back quick.
i then take 3 units of 10 ghouls and a vhargulf supported by 2 more magicky vampires with the book of arkhan and the sceptre de noirot. both have the summon ghouls beyond their starting strength ability and the extra magic level. these guys sit at the back, create speed bumps and generally act as cheerleaders for the vampire lord. the vhargulf deals with any oddness.
works for me. my vampire lord is known to bring down any greater daemon, you'd be surprised how many bloodthirsters fall victim to beguile!


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## Reign

In the unit of 6 Dire Wolves and 1 Doom Wolf against a Blood Thirster.. The doom wolf challenges, which the Blood Thirster has to accept, and the blood thirster kills he doom wolf, gets +5 for over kill, and in combat resolution he kills 5 more wolves, leaving 1 to keep him in place. 

In your magic phase you bring them back to life with IoN... 

That's what he meant Jax... but Gharof, while pretty well planned, is off a little bit....

In your phase, you charge, get in combat, and everything works as he implies. No problems...

The problem comes when it gets to HIS combat phase, and you don't have a magic phase in between. He will kill the last dire wolf and carry on his merry way later.

It is better to send a unit of zombies in to tie him up, and res any casualities (which there will be a lot) 

But that's what they are there for!


Cheers.


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## maddermax

Just in case you guys didn't notice, the thread is nearly a year old. I'm not stopping you, Just FYI


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## Reign

You LIE! You lie! 

It can't be true... 

NOOOOOooooooOoooo!!!!! *runs off crying into the night*


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