# Horus Heresy questions?



## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

I been reading the Horus Heresy series. I just finished Flight of The Eisenstien. Great Books. I been researching alot lately on all different Legions and Primarchs. I want to know if they plan on adding to Horus Heresy series with stories of the:

ISSTVAN V battle between The Primarchs, The Battles between Sanguinuss and Fulgrim, The other battles between the Primarchs, The Imperial Fists Battle Champion challenging all other champions, and The actuall Battles between The Emperor and Horus? Will these books eventually come out with these stories?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

All of these events are major tipping points in the course of the heresy, and surely will be covered. Some have been already, in particular the battle of the primarchs on Istvaan. In _Fulgrim_ we see Fulgrim's battle with Ferrus Mannus, and in the most recent, _First Heretic,_ we see Corax battling Lorgar, with Nighthaunter making a cameo appearance. Magnus faces off against Russ in _A Thousand Sons_ as well.

It may take some time, but they'll get there. They'd really get there a lot quicker if they just didn't bother their arses with entertaining yet pointless stories like _Nemesis_, and the much less entertaining _Battle for the Abyss_ and DA books.

You're only a bit into the series, and on the whole you should be satisfied with the series by the time you catch up.


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

I really want to read about the ISTVAN V battle as a whole. Cant wait to read about the Battle of Terra, and the Emperor vs Horus. Is the some books that Have no point to the Heresy and I should avoid?


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Battle for the abyss and Nemesis you should avoid.

Isstavan V Has been in The First Heretic, Fulgrim, Raven's Flight (Audio book) and I think there was one other but I cold be wrong.

Sanguinius vs Fulgrim? Do you mean Ferrus Manus vs Fulgrim?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Captain Stillios said:


> Battle for the abyss and Nemesis you should avoid.


_Battle for the Abyss_ is probably the worst BL publication I've read, so avoid it like a crack whore, but _Nemesis_, while having no particular relevance to the story arc of the heresy, is quite a good read.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You should still read Battle for the Abyss though, don't skip any of the HH books as the books all tend to have a knack of dropping references from other books into their stories. And who knows you may enjoy it. For me the book was the weakest along with Descent of Angels but i really did like Mhotep and Skraal


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

If we're gonna talk about weak books then Legion is by far the worst HH book I have ever read, yes even worse than BftA and Nemesis which are my bottom three.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Captain Stillios said:


> If we're gonna talk about weak books then Legion is by far the worst HH book I have ever read, yes even worse than BftA and Nemesis which are my bottom three.


Ah but that's an opinion not shared by the majority, whereas BftA is considered by the majority to be the worst HH book. 

For myself I still consider Legion the best HH book so far published, I've not read The First Heretic yet but it would take a herculean effort to dislodge Legion from the top spot in my opinion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Captain Stillios said:


> If we're gonna talk about weak books then Legion is by far the worst HH book I have ever read, yes even worse than BftA and Nemesis which are my bottom three.


Legion is a different style of read than most books in the Heresy Series. Dan Abnett definitely wrote that book well (though not really a top five for me), it just wasn't a "bolter porn" style book. But I would definitely agree with you on the other two.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Captain Stillios said:


> If we're gonna talk about weak books then Legion is by far the worst HH book I have ever read, yes even worse than BftA and Nemesis which are my bottom three.


I can safely say your crazy! :wacko::laugh:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Captain Stillios said:


> If we're gonna talk about weak books then Legion is by far the worst HH book I have ever read, yes even worse than BftA and Nemesis which are my bottom three.


I agree with Baron and CotE. Legion is excellent and like Baron is my favourite book, it was truely excellent. Thousand Sons, First Heretic and Horus Rising/Galaxy In Flames all come very very close, but Legion is still top.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

The question at hand isn't concerning_ Legion_, although I suppose you could tie in the fact that both Dan Abnett and Aaron-Dembski Bowden jested about some form of duo detailing the conflict between the White Scars, Space Wolves and Alpha Legion, Pre-Terra, Post-Prospero...

Sanguinius and Fulgrim? I dearly hope so. I would absolutely love more of the Daemon ''Fulgrim'' after the Dropsite Massacre... although... I'd much rather have the Blood Angels strike against the recently Khornate World Eaters... and a tide of bloodletters heralded by a Bloodthirster... Signus Prime, anyone?

What has made me even more jittery and fanboyistical than watching Aizen get flicked through a building (Gotta have those aimless references somewhere, LOTN ), is what you said about the Imperial Fists Champion... Sigsimund I believe? Him calling out to all other Champions... presumably of the traitor forces, for a final duel; the greatest Astartes pitched against one another beneath the shadow of the Primarchs.

Could someone clarify this and tell me where it occurs? Also, did Horus' armarda face any resistance at Jupitar, Saturn or Luna? :biggrin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sigismund did his Emperors Champion bit during the Seige of Terra. Dorn gave him the best weapons and equipment and named him the Emperors Champion. He then pretty much made his way through the palace challenging every traitor champion he could find, and defeating them. So we aren't going to see that for quite some time yet.

Regarding Signus, i'm pretty sure there aren't any World Eaters present when the Blood Angels are ambushed, its just a fuck load of deamons


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Ah but that's an opinion not shared by the majority, whereas BftA is considered by the majority to be the worst HH book.


For me it was Descent of Angels. Knights killing beasts, going into the wilds to kill some big ass bestie (I haven't read it for ages but I'm sure you know what I mean). It was interesting in the way that it showed a lot about the Lion's early stuff, but man, there wasn't a lot there that made me want to read on, just perserverence to see if anything else happened...

Fallen Angels was heaps better like. I liked BftA though, and enjoying Nemesis as its set in the time of the Heresy but not in a major way.

Wicked series like


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Well im about to start Fulgrim. I just cant for the series to move more forward. Thanks alot for the input. Ive never been into anything like these books. Super amazing.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Grins1878 said:


> For me it was Descent of Angels. Knights killing beasts, going into the wilds to kill some big ass bestie (I haven't read it for ages but I'm sure you know what I mean). It was interesting in the way that it showed a lot about the Lion's early stuff, but man, there wasn't a lot there that made me want to read on, just perserverence to see if anything else happened...
> 
> Fallen Angels was heaps better like. I liked BftA though, and enjoying Nemesis as its set in the time of the Heresy but not in a major way.
> 
> Wicked series like


Pretty much agree with you there. 

Fallen angels was alot easier to carry on and read.

BftA was like a childs book but with fight scenes. Wouldve been better as a sunday cartoon....


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I think the big problems people have with BftA and Nemesis is that they didn't really further the HH plot, and with some tweeks to the storyline be set in 40k.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I think the big problems people have with BftA and Nemesis is that they didn't really further the HH plot, and with some tweeks to the storyline be set in 40k.


Speaking personally my problem with BftA was that it was pretty dreadfull. I enjoyed Nemesis even though it doesnt add much to the HH plot.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh BftA was still fucking shite, although as i said before Mhotep and Skraal made it slightly bearable at times. But in general it was shit. I liked Nemesis aswell but alot of people have said they don't like it because it could easily have been a 40k story


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Nemisis was pretty cool, showed how the HH couldve been decided by only a few hands.

Bfta was just shite even if it did forward the plot somehow...


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

I thought _Nemesis_ was a nice aside from the main story, something of a palate cleanser that still managed to stay within the HH series by dint of a few details. I don't have any problem with that; it wasn't directly about the Heresy, but did give a peek at what life was like at ground level, something we tend to forget or ignore in light of the superhumans we usually follow.

To take it out of the Heresy series would mean either setting up a separate Heresy-era category or changing the story itself to remove Venenum and Vanus. I've never heard of those two clades outside of _Nemesis_, but it may just be a lack of info on my part. Although, a separate era-based block of books _would_ be pretty sweet, so long as the continuity doesn't suffer more for it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vanus and Venenum have been mentioned before but never expanded on much like the other four. From memory though it was never explained what the Vanus did, but Venenum assassins were known to be poison assassins, with a mention of a assassin who killed its target by poisoning every seat at a dinner table so that when the target and company sat down they all died, just to make sure.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I so hope one of the Siege of Terra books is from the point of view of the Imperial Fists. I hope Sigismund beating the heck out of Traitor Marine champions gets a good feature in it, they've set up a lot of traitor marine characters that could be disposed of by him.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Agreed, a joint book i reckon, Imperial bananas and World eaters, one force defending one force on the mad attack


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I so hope one of the Siege of Terra books is from the point of view of the Imperial Fists. I hope Sigismund beating the heck out of Traitor Marine champions gets a good feature in it, they've set up a lot of traitor marine characters that could be disposed of by him.


'Superman syndrome' anyone?

I'm sure Lucius of Emperors Children can whoop his as$!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Chaosveteran said:


> 'Superman syndrome' anyone?
> 
> I'm sure Lucius of Emperors Children can whoop his as$!


Well he's basically meant to be. If I recall he was chosen because he had a vision from the Emperor. Either that or every following Black Templar Emperor's Champion was chosen by that way.

tbh I think It might be Sigismund whose the first to defeat Lucius, they are both favoured by their "gods". He could even beat down Kharn


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

No way man Kharn is the ultimate fucker uper!


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Maybe Sigsimund just slays Kharn, Lucius and perhaps a Daemonified... Grulgor? I'm not too sure, the Death Guard Astartes who loathed Garro... maybe some form of reckoning between them? So, Pseudo-Grey Knights Vs the early Daemon Princes...

_Edit_ - Eidolon?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

bobss said:


> Maybe Sigsimund just slays Kharn, Lucius and perhaps a Daemonified... Grulgor? I'm not too sure, the Death Guard Astartes who loathed Garro... maybe some form of reckoning between them? So, Pseudo-Grey Knights Vs the early Daemon Princes...
> 
> _Edit_ - Eidolon?


I so hope he owns Eidolon, I hate him the most out of all the characters developed in the Series.

Kharn has already been run over once so getting owned by the Emperor's Champion would be a step up lol. All the other name lieutenants mentioned through out the series are possibilities, but I'm pretty sure someone important will be involved, it is the Emperor's Champion and we all know GW loves the Black Templars.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Doesn't Kharn get killed or defeated by someone during the seige, but Khorne brings him back? i'm sure something like that happens. Lucius and Eidolon both survive the heresy and Grulgor has already been killed (twice)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> Doesn't Kharn get killed or defeated by someone during the seige, but Khorne brings him back? i'm sure something like that happens. Lucius and Eidolon both survive the heresy and Grulgor has already been killed (twice)


If he does die, I'm betting it's Sigismund who gets the honour, although I seem to remember something about him being one of the first to enter the breach after the Chaos Titans blow a hole in the wall, so who knows.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I so hope he owns Eidolon, I hate him the most out of all the characters developed in the Series.
> 
> Kharn has already been run over once so getting owned by the Emperor's Champion would be a step up lol. All the other name lieutenants mentioned through out the series are possibilities, but I'm pretty sure someone important will be involved, it is the Emperor's Champion and we all know GW loves the Black Templars.


My absolute dream would be this:

*The Siege begins* - _Graham McNeill_: Iron Warriors hammering against the Imperial Palace, bombing Dorn's mastercraft into ruination. Horus deploys his armada, the World Eaters, Death Guard and other Legion's descend, with the siege beginning. Perhaps Titan's later on from the Legio Mortis, with elements drawn from Mechanicum and characters from Storm of Iron/Fulgrim - with the Emperor's Children enacting their genocides/debaucheries upon the populance of Terra.

Why? Simple. Previous and future works on the Iron Warriors, Dark/Orthodox Mechanicum, Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus. Plus, McNeill is brilliant with siegecraft.

*The Siege continues *- _Aaron-Dembski Bowden_: The Imperial defenders, Astartes and elements of the surviving Mechanicum reeling beneath Horus' assault. Plenty of slaughter, buckets of blood, skulls, daemons and Titans. Notable events been Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars Leion re-taking the Space Port. Also, the Eternity Gate, the Blood Angel's scenario, Sanguinius Vs Ka'Bandha, and Sigsimund -arguably- becoming the first Black Templar.

Why? This transcending from McNeill to Abnett stages would require delicate skill. Something I believe only ADB could pull off to a quality suitable for the Siege of Terra itself. Plus, previous -and brilliant- work of the Blood Angels, Black Templars, plus an interest in the White Scars?

*The Siege breaks *-_ Dan Abnett_: This could start with the Emperor's struggle, alongside the Sisters of Silence and Custodian's against the inexorable tide of Daemons flooding the Imperial Dungeons. It would take someone of Abnett's utter genius to convey that ''last gambit'' feel as the ragged remnants of the Imperial forces, the Primarch's and the Emperor teleporting towards the Vengeful Spirit. I don't want asolute carnage, I don't want millions of tonnes of munitions dumped onto Loyalist forces, or Blood Angels clashing against World Eaters in a tempest of blood. I want emotion, heroic's, sacrifice, downfall, contradition, relevation, the esclation of Valdor's possible betrayel, Malcador's death, the possible founding of the Grey Knights; a corrupted son and his father in a final duel, the pinnacle of the Heresy and the lowliest low and something _truly _worthy of the zenith of this story. 

Why? It is Dan Abnett. I don't want anyone tweeking this.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Grulgor doesn’t _die_. Well, not entirely. He was seen on Medusa, leading the Death Guard contingents as a Daemon Prince, if I remember correctly. Also - Eidolon is awesome! I’m probably one of the few that thinks that, but the fact he is such a prudent prick, makes it better..


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Doesn't Kharn get killed or defeated by someone during the seige, but Khorne brings him back? i'm sure something like that happens. Lucius and Eidolon both survive the heresy and Grulgor has already been killed (twice)





Words_of_Truth said:


> If he does die, I'm betting it's Sigismund who gets the honour, although I seem to remember something about him being one of the first to enter the breach after the Chaos Titans blow a hole in the wall, so who knows.


At the end of the Siege when thee World Eaters are retreating they discover Kharne's body on the top of a pile of his victims (no idea how big but I'm hoping it's pretty fucking huge), for some unknown reason they feel drawn to take his 'corpse' with them...well you know the rest.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That's the one. And is it the same Grulgor? He didn't really seem significant enough to be worth saving by Nurgle after his second death, but meh, fair enough


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I think the big problems people have with BftA and Nemesis is that they didn't really further the HH plot, and with some tweeks to the storyline be set in 40k.


That's certainly not the main problem I had with it. The main thing that continues to annoy me about it is the ghastly portrayal the Word Bearers recieved. _Counter_ is unable to write intriguing plots in my opinion, everything is black and white - good vs evil where he is concerned. The overly stereotypical portrayal of the Astartes from the other Legions also got on my nerves. The dull writing style tops it off. 

The action scenes were acceptable, but there was no character development and an incredibly unbelievable plot where once again an Ultramarine triumphs in the face of ridiculous odds - no wonder people find reason to dislike them.

They have so much potential as a Legion, yet _Battle for the Abyss_ gave a dull and unexploring portrayal of them.



Words_of_Truth said:


> tbh I think It might be Sigismund whose the first to defeat Lucius


No, Lucius was first killed (if that's what you mean by 'defeat') by Lord Commander Cyrius.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I so hope he owns Eidolon, I hate him the most out of all the characters developed in the Series.


There are rumours abound that Eidolon survived the Heresy and serves under the Despoiler. However it has not been confirmed.

@_bobss_:

Those three authors would be perfect in my eyes also for a Siege of Terra trilogy. Loads of significant events from different perspectives (also involving tonnes of contradictions) rather than a continual story would be better in my eyes though.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, Lucius was first killed (if that's why you mean by 'defeat') by Lord Commander Cyrius.
> 
> 
> 
> There are rumours abound that Eidolon survived the Heresy and serves under the Despoiler. However it has not been confirmed.


Ah ok. It would be good though if he did defeat someone of "importance".


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Didnt Garviel Loken Kill Kharn in the battle of Isstvan III?

I dont Like Eidolon either, and I wish Angron would of killed him on the Vengeful Spirit during the planning of Isstvan III.

Sigismund is BadASS! 

Any though on the New GARRO audio BOOKS?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

DeathGuardGarro said:


> Didnt Garviel Loken Kill Kharn in the battle of Isstvan III?
> 
> I dont Like Eidolon either, and I wish Angron would of killed him on the Vengeful Spirit during the planning of Isstvan III.
> 
> ...


Kharn got run over by a Rhino and was impaled on the front of it I think.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye, survived to fight another day though. 

The Inquisition believe Eidolon to still be alive, he's meant to have led thousands of raids on Imperial worlds since the heresy and a host of other notable achievements. So doubt he's going to snuff it


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

I just think Eidolon doesnt know his place. He walks and talks with the Primarchs as if he is one. Like the Battler of Murder, When he and Tarik Torgaddon meant. He said "Well I dont expect you to bow for the giving situation". Like what? why would one of HORUS chosen have to bow to you? Man I wish Torgaddon would have KICKED HIS ASS FOR THAT!


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Talking about books, Legion isnt interesting for me. Sure Abnett did write it dirrently which I will give him cred for, but I simply didnt praise to the heavens but I do respect that others like it. DA-books are underestimated IMO. First one is slow but it building up, 2nd is great except it got so many errors in it. Im looking forward to a third.

Fulgrim is still my top favorite, followed closely by FotE and TS. TFH was good too but only in top 5 kinda (sorry ADB).


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

Galaxy in Flames does it for me! LOVED IT. 

Im reading fulgrim now.


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## Thyr (Oct 25, 2010)

So far A Thousand Sons is my favourite HH book. But to be honest I enjoyed all the HH books .. some a bit more than others but still. 

Haven't read The First Heretic yet because they postponed my order for many weeks.


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## Captain Sor Talgron (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm surprised people didnt like Legion, it was so different and gave a good insight into how the alpha legion operate and their ability to infiltrate. The characters were well written i thought. 

I agree with alot of people, i found nemesis fairly boring and skipped afew of the pages, despite the thought that afew people could have changed the course of the heresy, it didn't and to be honest i felt it was just a book to fill in the gaps between the major relases and boost some revenue for BL. 

Thousand sons was brilliant, their thoughts, their emotions were well written and i really connected with them, especially Ahriman and Magnus. Like The Word Bearers, the thousand sons were wrongly treated.

Fulgrim i would definately recommend, loved it!!

as for the Dark Angels books, i found them really quite boring even the second one was quite hard for me to get into, i just couldn't understand the Lion's logic for keeping his distance from Luther, completely the wrong way to handle the situation which contradicts the Lion's military genius. 

Nemesis, definately wouldn't go there. Boring book which i felt was just to fill in the gaps between the major releases and provide some more revenue for BL.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I think the people who dislike Legion are in the minority to be fair. Theres very few people i know who don't like it and for me it' my favourite book


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