# Tzeentch Load outs



## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

What is the Pyschic power to give a Asp Champ in a thousands sons squad, also is it worth giving him melta bombs, and/or an Icon bearer. What sort of tactics would be best for there use of the choice of powers and weapons? 

Thanx in advance.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

In all honestly, it depends on your opponent. If it's Eldar, take gift of chaos, because then you can turn all the exarchs into gibbering chaos spawns. If it's Marines or MEQ's, Doombolt, because then you can just laugh at them as they can't take their saves. If it's Tau, I'd go either Bolt of change for their vehicles, of Warptime, to make the most of you Thousand sons shots. If it's Orks, then, I don't know  

That is just one man's opinion, but I hope it helps!


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

^ but that's tailoring !

Go for Bolt of Change. It allows the TSons to actually damage tanks which gives them duality. No need for Icon Bearer but melta-bombs wouldn't go amiss if you have the points spare.


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

I go for Wind of Chaos or Doombolt, as they help the Sons rock at what they're good at: MEQ killing.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Thousand sons primary target is MeW so take a psychic power that compliments their intended role (Otherwise you will waste them fighting in CC, or wasting them trying to one shot a tank). So winds of chaos, or the mediocre doombolt are probably the best choices.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Are they one of many troop types or your only type?

If you are running a mixed force then Thousand Sons are best loaded anti-infantry, and are unlikely to get stranded alone in combat with a walker they cannot hurt so Melta bombs are at best an option and at worst a temptation to make the squad do something for which it was not designed.

If you are running a pure Tzeentch force (i.e. not filing your Heavy slots with Obliterators) then the lack of anti-vehicle is more pressing, and there is less in the rest of your force that can rescue the Thousand Sons form combat if they get stranded, so Bolt of Change is useful enough to make it less of a waste of the rest of the squad, and Melta bombs become almost required.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

I am thinking of doing a Tzeentch themed list for a future project, so il need all the help i can get.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Gift of Chaos. Seriously. Its the only thing that will help you if you get into close combat. And you will get into close combat, cause my ass is not going to dance around while getting double-tapped by inferno bolts. 

Watch a space wolf player get really scared about sending his close combat god into combat knowing that on a 5 or 6 he just wasted 200+ points. And its not a shooting power so it can be used twice. The added bonus is with the 4+ invulnerable there is little likelihood of dieing in the first round to those godlike assault squads.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Rixnor said:


> Watch a space wolf player get really scared about sending his close combat god into combat knowing that on a 5 or 6 he just wasted 200+ points. And its not a shooting power so it can be used twice.


How can you use a power twice? i thought you could only cast 1 a turn with each sourcerer, libby etc?:scratchhead:


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## LostIsland (May 7, 2009)

MoT allows the use of two powers per turn, so you can either double-gift, or gift and force weapon


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

I didn't think Aspiring Sorcerers could do that, but it would make sense.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> Gift of Chaos. Seriously. Its the only thing that will help you if you get into close combat. And you will get into close combat, cause my ass is not going to dance around while getting double-tapped by inferno bolts.


The downsides to gift of Chaos are:
(i) the range - you are almost certainly trying to avoid close combat, so might want a power that lets you stay out of charge range if you do not shred your target.
(ii) the power becomes less effective as your target becomes more scary - as it is resisted with Toughness so MEq are resisting more often than not, and characters/combat specialists are more likely to have a high toughness.

However - unless your opponent constantly messes with your psychic powers - the aspiring champion will not get the benefit of two powers per turn with a shooting power.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Careful if your playing kill points though, each new spawn is a new potential kill point, and they die fairly easily. 

Don't take Bolt of change on them though, your then wasting all your lovely ap3 shots in the hope that 1 shot will pass the test then do damage to the vehicle 

Generally I find its best to stick to doombolt or wind of chaos.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

So if its pure Tzeentch i should take bolt of change and wind of chaos, otherwise there is no point in these powers. If its a mixed force im going to want doom bolt and gift of chaos to support the rest of the army?


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

In pure Tzeentch, I think you should still shy away from BoC. Wind of Chaos is great if you have the points, and Doombolt is a good budget option. 

For a Thousand Sons fluffy army, I think you could go for Havocs, Preds, or other Heavy supports to pop tanks.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

What happens when you come up a against a mech list though? TSons w/o BoC become pretty useless and it's not like you're sacrificing a huge amount of anti-infantry fire for a semi-decent chance to actual damage a vehicle.

Duality FTW.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Partof1 said:


> For a Thousand Sons fluffy army, I think you could go for Havocs, Preds, or other Heavy supports to pop tanks.


Depends on how fluffy you are: purest of the pure Thousand Sons have a choice of Defilers, Predators, or Land Raiders, as both Obliterators and Havocs are non-Rubric non-Sorcerer marines.

If you are taking laxer approach to what fits within Thousand Sons then you can put more anti-armour in your Heavy Support.



Kirby said:


> What happens when you come up a against a mech list though? TSons w/o BoC become pretty useless and it's not like you're sacrificing a huge amount of anti-infantry fire for a semi-decent chance to actual damage a vehicle.


My experience falls somewhere in the middle; when I run Thousand Sons against mech guard without Bolt of Change I need all of my other choices to do slightly better than average, which usually needs my opponent to make an error.


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## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I think Oblits still work in a Thousand Sons army. They are their own individual cult that sells their skills to any chaos warlord. So I don't see why you couldn't take them and maintain the fluff. Just don't paint them blue and gold! :victory: That way you can have lots of firepower to down walkers and other mech that will give you trouble.

I really like Wind of Chaos. It gives you a template weapon that is super useful vs swarm armies and MEQ. Combined with the fact the T Sons are relentless and can always rapid fire or shoot normaly and still assualt if they have to I think Wind gives them the best chance to thin the enemy unit before doing assualting. Something they are terrible at except the sorcerer.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

I think im going to go for a WoC and GoC load out they seem to be the better ones against Meq and also seem to be more Tzeentch fitting. As for the Oblits i might give them a miss, i dont wanna spend to much money and fall into the Gw trap.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Uilleam said:


> They are their own individual cult that sells their skills to any chaos warlord.


Noise Marines are also cult marines. Even if you argue that they are less likely to sell their services they can still be tricked by the Great Manipulator's minions.

Also if you are allowing allied powers, I cannot see an argument to keep out unmarked CSM or even some marked CSM.

Once you allow one cult as bought/tricked allies the only limits I can see are on Plague Marines due to the hatred of Nurgle and Tzeentch and Berserkers due to the hatred of psykers.


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

Near as I can tell, Oblits wouldn't fit, as the Thousand Sons intensely dislike mutation. I figured tanks and Havocs would be fine, just as long as they aren't too chaosy/daemonic.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Just make a "Terminator Sorcerer Cabal". Sorcerers with really powerful spells. Easy


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I run 2 Predators and a Vindi in my heavy slots, those Vindicators really make marines thing twice about getting their rhinos close. Demolisher cannon the rhino, 1kSons pop the juicy bits inside. *Poof* 1 unit instantly gone.
Yeah I'm of the mindset that the Thousand Sons simply do not tolerate Mutations.


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## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

I would definitely go gift of chaos. It's so cool turning your opponent's models into spawn and having them rampage through their ranks.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

For a 1K sons squad GoC is great. Since the Sorcerer isn't an IC, he can't be singled out, giving you 2 chances to kill models at the beginning of your next turn, possibly even an IC if they were foolish enough to get tangled up with you.

For an HQ, they will most likely be trying to assault or be able to be singled out. A Power that has 6" range means he will really have to survive 2 melee phases if he assaulted or 1 melee phase if he took the charge. For the points, WoC will probably serve better to get rid of models, before assaulting, rather than a model or 2 every turn after.

You could use it's 6" from vehicle hull rule to leave him embarked for protection I guess.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

How about using GoC from inside a rhino, or would that be a bit to close for comfort? Just turn them into a spawn then get out and rapid fire them whilst they deal with it.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

to echo what everyone else is saying. gifts of chaos is pretty much crap, and its due to the short range/high pints cost ratio for a CHANCE to MAYBE turn one dude into a spawn on your side. Also Bolt of change falls into this catagory aswell REGAURDLESS of its potential. your best bet for thousand sons is to allow them to do what they where meant to do, Anti-Infantry. now i recommend doombolt heavily for this, its cheap, has decent range, and is cost effective. Winds of chaos s also a nasty choice, but implies charging from one unit or another which i don't often recommend as their true power is in shooting. lastly there is that "insurance" policy of warp time, this spell pretty much insures your Thousand sons wont do to badly in CC IF they manage to find themselves in that sticky delema.

as far as poping tanks go, there are 3 slots for heavy, fast AND elite, that all have units capable of blowing up tanks, use them.

Terminators with combi-meta make mince meat of tanks, whilst cheap units of 5 chosen with meltas and rhinos do the same.

in the fast section, a unit of 5 bikers with a fist and a set of melta, will run expensive, but will likely get the job done several times during the course of a game. also really not a bad idea to look at raptors either, but add more bodies as they don't survive as well.

then lastly, pretty much anything in the heavy section can do the job, though i recommend tri-las preds, as they get 3 las shots with a better chance to hit then oblits thanks to one being TL'd and they come in cheaper then oblits by a good 40 to 50 point margin. also, not a bad idea to run melta havocs in rhinos or even fall back on the old standby of oblits. 

there are many many options for T sons anti-tank in the codex, just don't look to the T sons them selves as their battle role is pre-defined and much more useful if used for its intended purpose, anti-infantry.

oh and i forgot one other option, you can tack combi-melta on a rhino, scares the crap out of guard!


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## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

Doesn't the combi-melta only get one shot off the melta though?


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Syko515 said:


> to echo what everyone else is saying. gifts of chaos is pretty much crap, and its due to the short range/high pints cost ratio for a CHANCE to MAYBE turn one dude into a spawn on your side. Also Bolt of change falls into this catagory aswell REGAURDLESS of its potential. your best bet for thousand sons is to allow them to do what they where meant to do, Anti-Infantry. now i recommend doombolt heavily for this, its cheap, has decent range, and is cost effective. Winds of chaos s also a nasty choice, but implies charging from one unit or another which i don't often recommend as their true power is in shooting. lastly there is that "insurance" policy of warp time, this spell pretty much insures your Thousand sons wont do to badly in CC IF they manage to find themselves in that sticky delema.


You're losing a couple of AP3 shots for the chance to damage a tank, that's not a lot lost in anti-infantry but infinitely more gained in anti-tank.



> as far as poping tanks go, there are 3 slots for heavy, fast AND elite, that all have units capable of blowing up tanks, use them.


Which makes your opponent's target priority so much eaiser. Having anti-infantry and anti-tank spread throughout your army is the sign of a balanced army. It can deal with anything and whilst having dedicated anti-infantry or anti-tank units is fine, if they are also capable of taking on their opposite number, much better.



> Terminators with combi-meta make mince meat of tanks, whilst cheap units of 5 chosen with meltas and rhinos do the same.
> 
> in the fast section, a unit of 5 bikers with a fist and a set of melta, will run expensive, but will likely get the job done several times during the course of a game. also really not a bad idea to look at raptors either, but add more bodies as they don't survive as well.


And this is one of the main problems of the Chaos codex, these are all generally expensive and sacrificial squads to pop tanks. Sac squads are great when they aren't expensive and don't chew up important slots.



> then lastly, pretty much anything in the heavy section can do the job, though i recommend tri-las preds, as they get 3 las shots with a better chance to hit then oblits thanks to one being TL'd and they come in cheaper then oblits by a good 40 to 50 point margin. also, not a bad idea to run melta havocs in rhinos or even fall back on the old standby of oblits.


Tri-las preds are crap. Sameconcept as above in being able to ping both tanks and infantry besides the fact it's extremely expensive and not "great" at anti-tank. It's more expensive than a vendetta, less mobile (though can get cover) and hits on average less. Oblits are an excellent choice and are the mainstay of any decent CSM list in terms of competitiveness because of their duality. Oblits also shoot until they die.



> there are many many options for T sons anti-tank in the codex, just don't look to the T sons them selves as their battle role is pre-defined and much more useful if used for its intended purpose, anti-infantry.
> 
> oh and i forgot one other option, you can tack combi-melta on a rhino, scares the crap out of guard!


This doesn't stop you from spending 25pts to make the core unit in your army actually useful against all opponents. Again, the lack of a couple AP3 shots isn't going to greatly affect the game outcome, a S8 AP1 Rhino bunker has a higher chance of doing so.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Kirby said:


> You're losing a couple of AP3 shots for the chance to damage a tank, that's not a lot lost in anti-infantry but infinitely more gained in anti-tank.



But your paying a premium for those shots, when there are so many better options for tank popping

Oblits are great in the sons army, just convert them to be sorcerer lords


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Barnster said:


> But your paying a premium for those shots, when there are so many better options for tank popping
> 
> Oblits are great in the sons army, just convert them to be sorcerer lords


No arguments on oblits but they can't do everything in a mech dominated environment. Take both BoC & Doombolt if you want but having all of your units being able to deal with tanks and infantry to some level is very important in creating a balanced list.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

creating a balanced list in an unbalanced game system seems kinda off, at least for the T sons.

to take that extra few points and make the unit have BoC, which is rather crappy vs any vehicle worth its salt, you loose 16 ish rapid fired str 4 ap 3 shots. you also loose the ability to have that augmented by giving the sorc a power that compliments what the units intention for the battlefield was. thousand sons, like khorne berserkers, are not meant to take pot shots at tanks when there are units of dudes to be fired at. in the mechanized world this means that its often super effective to blow up the opponents tank with something else, then rapid fire/ winds or doombolt in as there aren't much besides terminators that tend to have more then 1 or 2 models left after that, barring orks who tend to have like 5 or 6 if it was a loaded battle wagon. if you take the bolt instead, you end up using the sons to shoot the tank, ok cool it popped, now what? you can't shoot the unit inside, nore do you want to assault it.

my point being Balanced isn't everything, and its easy to forget tactics when it comes to a game where everything can have a pair of melta's or the like. personally i feel the T sons make up for it by being so nasty in their anti-infantry and to change that role to a mixed role is a huge mistake.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Syko515 said:


> creating a balanced list in an unbalanced game system seems kinda off, at least for the T sons.
> 
> my point being Balanced isn't everything, and its easy to forget tactics when it comes to a game where everything can have a pair of melta's or the like. personally i feel the T sons make up for it by being so nasty in their anti-infantry and to change that role to a mixed role is a huge mistake.


No way dude. Balance is extremely important and actually lends itself to tactical use better than extremely specialized units.

Doombolt is just more of what the Thousand Sons are already good at - they need absolutely zero help in the AP3 department. Wind of Chaos is rarely any good either since Thousand Sons are _Slow and Purposeful_ - about the only way you'll get that power to work consistently against someone who knows what they're doing would be to load them up in a Rhino and even then people will take measures to avoid it. Gift of Chaos is complete garbage. So many points for the off chance of turning someone into a basically useless Chaos Spawn? No thanks (one thing most people don't realize though is that you don't *have* to make the enemy a Chaos Spawn - you can choose to or not, which can be useful depending on the mission). Bolt of Change is far and away the superior power because despite its Strength problems (not that it has a low Strength, just that if you're gonna shoot it at a main battle tank with AV13+ it can be tough) it has the benefit of being on a mobile platform and is AP1, making it actually pretty reliable, especially when taken alongside more conventional anti-tank weaponry.

When one is building an army with a theme like the Thousand Sons (usually meaning that there are a number of self-imposed restrictions like no Obliterators, Troops other than Thousand Sons and so on) Bolt helps make up for one of the list's inherent weaknesses. Losing a few AP3 shots really isn't a big deal when most of the rest of your army can do the same thing.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

well then atleast we can agree on gifts of chaos being junk. to be quite honest the only time i've noticed any form of weakness in the T sons list is if its facing an Eldar army featuring eldrad or some othere psycher with the anti-psycher wargear, but that can be played around. if i had to absolutly pick a single power from the codex to throw on a t son sorcerer permanently, i'd probably go for doombolt thanks to its points efficient cost, better range, and extra shot. i think another reason i find the BoC on T sons argument to be a bit bunk is because i prefer bolt of change or even winds on a warptimesd prince where its ensured to do the maximum damage possible.

too much can go wrong to prevent that BoC shot from going off, failed test, missed shot, god forbid a hood. though its nice to force then to use the hood early on, i don't feel its worth taking pot shots at tanks when you can just mulch their troops and call it a day. especially if you design the rest of the list to compliment the T sons with a decent assortment of anti-tank. i find a combo of tri las preds, oblits, termicide, and a nasty prince or two are really all the list needs for anti-tank. bolt of change just doesn't make the cut for my lists.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> ...there are a number of self-imposed restrictions like no Obliterators, Troops other than Thousand Sons and so on)...._{My emphasis}_


This I think is what makes the load out so difficult to pin down. The only official definition of what forms a Thousand Sons army is in the previous codex, so we can actually have more if we want and still be Thousand Sons; which is actually a good thing about the 4th Edition Codex.

So, to first define the interpretation under which I make my suggestions:
(i) All units must be part of the Thousand Sons Legion
(ii) The Rubric makes Sorcerers better Sorcerers
(iii) The Rubric makes non-Sorcerers into possessed armour

Under this set-up, your heavy support is Defilers, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. Obliterators cannot be fluffed in as a species of Sorcerer as their save cannot legally be built using Mark of Tzeentch and chaos marines (they would either be 3+/6+, 3+/4+ or 2+/4+ depending on whether they were Power Armour, Power Armour Lord, or Terminator Lord). As you have no Terminators to which to attach a Land Raider you have a maximum of three heavy support.

You can also have Dreadnoughts; however we are being fluffy enough already:wink:

You can also tool up a Daemon Prince or Sorcerer Lord (or even two); however this will still only be one model with a limited range that costs a large proportion of your points.

So, without the other infantry types, you are going to have a lower than average anti-tank outside of your Thousand Sons squads.

I therefore almost always take Bolt of Change and Melta Bombs on Thousand Sons as they will never by close combat troops so they need to deal with big things before they arrive.

Once I ease up on any of the restrictions; for instance, all members of Thousand Sons must have Mark of Tzeentch instead of must be under the Rubric I get more anti-tank, so waiver between Bolt of Change and Gift of Chaos (the only viable power in close combat, so the only power that helps get Thousand Sons out of close combat); as Gift of Chaos is demonstrably a last ditch action and wasted if everything goes well, Bolt is still a better performer for me.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Under this set-up, your heavy support is Defilers, Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. Obliterators cannot be fluffed in as a species of Sorcerer as their save cannot legally be built using Mark of Tzeentch and chaos marines (they would either be 3+/6+, 3+/4+ or 2+/4+ depending on whether they were Power Armour, Power Armour Lord, or Terminator Lord).
> Umm, how about this Sorcerer is between a Sorcerer Lord (4+ Inv) and a Normal Tzeentch Sorcerer (6+). Ie, they have a special Psychic Defenses that aren't as powerful as a Sorcerer lord, and they wear Artificer armour.
> 
> As you have no Terminators to which to attach a Land Raider you have a maximum of three heavy support.
> ...


If your playing pure Thousand Sons, I don't think you'd be worried abotu poitn heavy models


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Dave T Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> > As you have no Terminators to which to attach a Land Raider you have a maximum of three heavy support.
> ...


They do in the fluff; just not 4th Edition codex:ireful2:



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> If your playing pure Thousand Sons, I don't think you'd be worried abotu poitn heavy models


Fair point; well madek:


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

If your worried about versitility try playing an eldar army, you learn to play with specialised units, really its just marines that can have any true versitility

Thousand sons fluff list really can't be represented in the current codex, you have to make the most of a bad list.

Personally I can't see the problem with using any codex unit (other than other cult marines!) as long as you put a little thought into converting it to represent something tzeentchy, it can then fit in with the sons theme


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

I like to keep my Sons with Doombolt, and give Bolt of Change and Wind of Chaos to a Tzeentch Sorcerer. 

This way, my Anti Tank can go anywhere, same with my anti horde.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> They do in the fluff; just not 4th Edition codex:ireful2:


Hmmm, I'd still say run a normal Terminator unit and "count as" Rubic Terminators. It's not like you opponent can get up you for abusing the dex >_<


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

actually tzeentch terminators are a bit nasty. not as bad a SS/TH termies, but close. i've had a group of 5 foot slog to an I.G. battle line and proceed to walk all over my opponnent, whilst forsaking cover. of course most of the blasts he directed at then where str 8 ap 3...


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Barnster said:


> Personally I can't see the problem with using any codex unit (other than other cult marines!) as long as you put a little thought into converting it to represent something tzeentchy, it can then fit in with the sons theme


I agree you can make a Tzeentchy army with almost anything "fluffing-as" (to coin a, slightly dodgy, opposite to "counts-as"); however, when you are advising someone on what to do with their fluff army it makes it easier if we define what is and is not "fluffy" within context.



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Hmmm, I'd still say run a normal Terminator unit and "count as" Rubic Terminators. It's not like you opponent can get up you for abusing the dex >_<


Interesting idea; I cannot see anyone objecting to me making a Codex unit worse than it usually is :laugh:

However, there are advantages to being Rubric Terminators (i.e. Inferno Bolts) that might be seen as making the unit better.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Interesting idea; I cannot see anyone objecting to me making a Codex unit worse than it usually is :laugh:
> 
> However, there are advantages to being Rubric Terminators (i.e. Inferno Bolts) that might be seen as making the unit better.


You miss understand what I meant. I meant take a Terminator unit and call them Rubic Terminators.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> You miss understand what I meant. I meant take a Terminator unit and call them Rubic Terminators.


That would involve breaking the my restriction on non-Sorcerers being subject to the Rubric.

Sadly the only Rubric Terminators that you can get these days are in an Apocalypse formation.

The closest legal replacement you can field is Tzeentch Icon Terminators armed with combi-bolters and power weapons, with a one having a special weapon to - poorly - represent a psychic power.


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I have no problem using terminator squads as far as fluff is concerned. You read A Thousand Sons ? Scarab Occult... 81 terminators... I put 1k Sons heads on chaos termies and clipped the power weapon tops, switching with tomb king kopesh bits. It looks sweet and very fluffy. 
I'm shocked about all the Bad advice concerning psychic powers, after 5 pages no one has even mentioned the best power to take(for a pure Thousand Sons force). First off, I'm not talking out my ass here. The Thousand Sons is the only army I play(several years), I have used every power many times in multiple games trying to find what works best. WARPTIME!!! Every model in my army that can take warptime, takes warptime. An aspiring sorcerer with melta bombs and warptime can take out a vehicle if he really, really needs to, but that's a job for other slots on the FoC. The 3 newest codex releases have been assault oriented factions and there are more on the horizon. The metagame is shifting. No matter how hard you try, you will be assaulted or put in a position where you must assault. 3-4 force weapon swings re-rolling hits and wounds will hurt most things. It's usually quite a shock for your opponent too, as everyone thinks the Sons suck in cc. I urge all Thousand Sons players to try warptime out for 3-4 games, you will like.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Annabelle said:


> I have no problem using terminator squads as far as fluff is concerned. You read A Thousand Sons ? Scarab Occult... 81 terminators...


Pre-rubric, there is no problem; post-rubric, the rules do not fit.



Annabelle said:


> ...Every model in my army that can take warptime, takes warptime.


I have tried it is several configurations. I agree that ICs really benefit; however, I find a TS squad where the Sorcerer can threaten more targets at range is better than one where he is slightly better at what he can already do.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

Actually Annabelle, I did make metion of warptime in my first post. last sentence in thee top paragraph. as for bad advice and talking out our asses? i wouldn't go that far. i cannot speak for everyone here but i'm a 4 year vet with 3 and a 1/2 years of that being nothing but T sons play. only recently did i start collecting secondary armies.

unfortunatly for warptime, though it bolsters the T sons CC preformance by a ton, and allows for a great many things to go wrong for you Opp. if he doesn't expect it, its a bit of a waste should you NOT be in CC ever. i find the best place for warptime is on an HQ of the Tzeentch variety with either winds or as insurance that bolt doesn't go amiss.


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

Dave, I think you take too strict of a stance on what you consider a fluffy Thousand Sons list. It's your army though, you do what you want and so will I. 

Syko, I missed your small bit on warptime. I agree with most of what you say here and in other posts. What I mean by bad advice is people saying BoC is something that should be included in a Sons squad.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

and i agree on that stance, i just felt like being a turd and pointing out my post as kinda a "told ya so" moment...what can i say its the winning personality.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Annabelle said:


> Dave, I think you take too strict of a stance on what you consider a fluffy Thousand Sons list. It's your army though, you do what you want and so will I.
> 
> Syko, I missed your small bit on warptime. I agree with most of what you say here and in other posts. What I mean by bad advice is people saying BoC is something that should be included in a Sons squad.


Which it should be. Still no arguments actually making sense here in terms of mono-builds > duality. 

Warptime is a fine secondary spell but doesn't make the TSons a combat squad (much like PFists in Tac squads). It helps cover the squads weaknesses (...kinda like what BoC does...) but you have to weigh in on the expense of the secondary power and make sure you're not throwing them into combat because of it.


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm not trying to make a combat squad. I want to have a chance in the inevitable CC. Taking BoC is bad, here's why. First you have to pass the psychic test. Second, you have to roll to hit. Third, you must roll well on the armor pen. Finally (if you made it this far) you roll on the damage. The odds of wrecking or exploding any vehicle are VERY low. While this is going on, your 23 point a model squad of Sons is sitting around collecting dust. (pun intended) Thousand Sons can move and shoot 24", against some lists you want to be backing up and shooting. Other times you want to be advancing 12'' in a rhino for proper position. Stopping your mighty ap3 infantry killers to watch their aspiring sorcerer utterly fail is very counter productive.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Annabelle said:


> Stopping your mighty ap3 infantry killers to watch their aspiring sorcerer utterly fail is very counter productive.


Not if by casting Bolt of Change the Sorcerer is helping the army toward victory.

Really though, it all comes down to how strict one decides to be with the Tzeentchian theme. If people are taking nothing but, say, Terminators, Thousand Sons and vehicles then Bolt will likely come in handy since the potential sources of anti-tank firepower are fewer and further between. If one allows themselves the use of things like Havocs, Obliterators and so on then Bolt simply isn't needed as there are more reliable methods of dealing with vehicles around.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Annabelle said:


> I'm not trying to make a combat squad. I want to have a chance in the inevitable CC. Taking BoC is bad, here's why. First you have to pass the psychic test. Second, you have to roll to hit. Third, you must roll well on the armor pen. Finally (if you made it this far) you roll on the damage. The odds of wrecking or exploding any vehicle are VERY low. While this is going on, your 23 point a model squad of Sons is sitting around collecting dust. (pun intended) Thousand Sons can move and shoot 24", against some lists you want to be backing up and shooting. Other times you want to be advancing 12'' in a rhino for proper position. Stopping your mighty ap3 infantry killers to watch their aspiring sorcerer utterly fail is very counter productive.


And again, you come up against a tank army and fail. Duality is important.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

ok, Kirby lets talk for just a sec. 

on your post on page 5's bottom. you said warptime is a great secondary power? clarify please. and its only due to confusion to ask this. the reason i ask is because to me it feels like your saying that a T sons sorcerer may take 2 psychic abilities, which if they where an HQ tzeentch model their entries allow for, where their entry in the codex only allows you to take one ability.

second, your talking duality, but your profile puts you at playing the most specialized army avaiable. I.E. fire dragons pop tanks and big critters, dires wipe out troops, ECT... where no two units can inter change their jobs effectivly. point being that army alone should prove the point for there not to be a need for duality.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

True re: 2nd power, no idea why I was thinking they can take 2. Stick with BoC then.

Eldar have nothing to do with this argument and regardless still run duality. Just because the aspects are focused doesn't mean they are good choices (DA being the most efficient for scoring and Dragons being necessary for serious anti-mech) beyond the fact Eldar rely on mass S6, AV12 fast shielded tanks, etc. to win... The only unit which should be taken in an Eldar army which isn't duality based is Fire Dragons w/o DBF. DA shouldn't be getting out and every Eldar tank should have a minimum of 4 shots or a blast (Prisms).


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

To me the whole debate is not about specialism versus duality; rather it is about what type of duality.

Thousand Sons are, without upgrades, good at shooting infantry; even with a psychic power they are not going to be specialist close combat troops or specialist tank hunters.

Therefore, the question is secondary ability: can you make them better at close combat? can you make them better at tankhunting? The only combination I can think of to make you better at both is Warptime and Melta-bombs as it increases your chances against infantry and against a moving vehicle.

Which one you pick will depend on your anti-tank and close combat potential in the rest of the army.

My play style leans to anti-tank and deals with combats I cannot avoid by TS surviving long enough to be rescued by something else.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Lord Rahl said:


> I think im going to go for a WoC and GoC load out they seem to be the better ones against Meq and also seem to be more Tzeentch fitting. As for the Oblits i might give them a miss, i dont wanna spend to much money and fall into the Gw trap.


So don't. Green stuff+weapon bits+chaos termies=oblits.


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