# Night Haunter and Angron



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Out of the primarchs, these two were the most ruthless. Who do you think would win in a hand to hand duel?

how about a duel between Mortarion and Curze


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Depends on the setting. A place where you could use stealth, Curze. Straight up face to face, Angron easily.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Yeah straight up face to face in, lets say a arena, Angron would butcher Konrad
but Konrad would win against Mortation, Mortation isnt even said to be a good fighter (when compared to other primarchs)

Konrad was ruthless and frenzy/crazy but he still wasnt one of the biggest or physically stronger primarchs, its just ever since he one punched Dorn everybody thinks he a complete butchering machine, from the description of him im guessing hes quite strong and quick but just not as talented at fighting such as Fulgrim is or as Brutal such as Angron is.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Out of the primarchs, these two were the most ruthless. Who do you think would win in a hand to hand duel?
> 
> how about a duel between Mortarion and Curze


Hand-to-hand, straight up fight I'd say Night Haunter over Angron by a hair. It'd be damn close but Night Haunter has experience in unarmed combat (his hands were his primary weapon back home) while I think Angron would be more comfortable with a blade in his hands.

Just a regular straight-up duel my moneys on Angron. The man is a killing machine and an unstoppable force, Curze is unstable and visious but I don't think he has the raw killing power to beat Angron on his terms.

A more loosely defined battle would be owned by Night Haunter. He is a master of psycological warfare and Angron has a very explotable psychology. Given the opportunity to work his magic I think they're would be few primarchs able to go toe-to-toe with Night Haunter (basically just Corax and Alpharius).

A Mortarion and Curze fight would just be Night Haunter wailing on Mortarion while the big dude takes it. I don't think Mortarion as the speed to reliably hit Night Haunter or the power to one-shot him so Curze will win eventually.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Konrad I consider one of the greatest combat skilled Primarchs. But Angron is an entirely different level with everything done to him. I gotta say Angron.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Where do you get the impression Kurze was a hand to hand fighter versus weapons? Theres nothing to suggest anything of the sort, if anything The First Heretic suggests the opposite as he reached for a weapon the moment hid pod landed. Angron by contest was a gladiator, using any weapons that come to hand, he butchered the best of his officers with hus bare hands when introduced to his legion. 

I dont see Kurze as being particularly special either, it's never been mentioned that he is. Sure he jumped an unsuspecting Dorn, but that's not really a good indication. Khan, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Horus, Angron and by extension Ferrus(seeing as he could have killed Fulgrim had the deamon not interfered) are a described as being excellent in close combat and amongst the best. 

So based on all available facts and info. Angron wins hands down.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I concur. Angron is war incarnate. Though I still think that Konrad Curze was in the top half of the close combat bracket. 

I've been in quite a lot of fights. And I've seen those people who are naturally good at fighting and those who are just fricken crazy. Those naturally good at fighting are fricken titans to fight with. The crazy ones aren't as good as fighting, but they do put one hell of a fight without being that strong or big.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Where do you get the impression Kurze was a hand to hand fighter versus weapons? Theres nothing to suggest anything of the sort, if anything The First Heretic suggests the opposite as he reached for a weapon the moment hid pod landed. Angron by contest was a gladiator, using any weapons that come to hand, he butchered the best of his officers with hus bare hands when introduced to his legion.
> 
> I dont see Kurze as being particularly special either, it's never been mentioned that he is. Sure he jumped an unsuspecting Dorn, but that's not really a good indication. Khan, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Horus, Angron and by extension Ferrus(seeing as he could have killed Fulgrim had the deamon not interfered) are a described as being excellent in close combat and amongst the best.
> 
> So based on all available facts and info. Angron wins hands down.


I'd have to side with you simply because I'm a World Eaters fan


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Even though the night lords have always been my fav. legion since i first got into the hobby (roughly 10 years ago) Im gonna say Angron would win hands down. Konrad is a flippin ninja but if he was forced to fight in combat face to face Konrad although is great fighter he has nothing compared to Angron.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Even though the night lords have always been my fav. legion since i first got into the hobby (roughly 10 years ago) Im gonna say Angron would win hands down. Konrad is a flippin ninja but if he was forced to fight in combat face to face Konrad although is great fighter he has nothing compared to Angron.


I agree with TheSpore, Angron loves a close-up fight with anyone. I don't know that much about Konrad but I still think Angron would win. I mean, just look at the world eaters, they are better than most in a fight and they are made from Angron's DNA!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I concur. Angron is war incarnate. Though I still think that Konrad Curze was in the top half of the close combat bracket.
> 
> I've been in quite a lot of fights. And I've seen those people who are naturally good at fighting and those who are just fricken crazy. Those naturally good at fighting are fricken titans to fight with. The crazy ones aren't as good as fighting, but they do put one hell of a fight without being that strong or big.


that's interesting now that I think of it, Angron was really like a 40k god of war


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## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

That is true he can kill almost anything


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm a Night Lords fanboy and I say that the curze-meister wins in every possible fight because even if Angron actually beats him up, curze's vindication will eventually destroy Angron, much like how it did to the Emperor.



If you can't tell that I'm not being serious, then I'll say it now that I am



But really? I think that they do things differently.
I'd think of Konrad as more like snake from metal gear solid (Surviving off the land and being sneaky).
Angron I think of as more like Kratos from God of War (An all-out brawler)

Who would win in the end?

The Imperium obviously.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I gotta say as someone who looks at the basics of the fluff, Angron wins, simply because he is painted as the best CC fighter of all the primarchs. 

You can say that Sang is, or Horus etc, but the way the fluff is set up, Angron is supposed to be the CC king, that's his role in the story arc.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

CJay said:


> I gotta say as someone who looks at the basics of the fluff, Angron wins, simply because he is painted as the best CC fighter of all the primarchs.
> 
> You can say that Sang is, or Horus etc, but the way the fluff is set up, Angron is supposed to be the CC king, that's his role in the story arc.


I think the other CC experts are (in no particular order) 

Russ and Lion
Fulgrim, Khan
Sanguinius 

I'm really not so sure about Horus, I don't think his combat skills were ever emphasized


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

Horus is stated in several HH novels as being one of best fighters, ranked alongside Sanguinius and Angron in terms of combat prowess.

I don't think Curze would win in a straight up fight against Angron, none of the Primarchs would IMHO. The problem with Angron is that he is often so enranged that it allows him to be easily manipulated by others, sure if left to kill watonly he'd be pretty unstoppable, but if given any time to prepare for his overpowering assault and maybe work him into a frenzy where he is no longer in control of himself, I believe that most other if not all of the Primarchs could best him. Curze had a mind like a particularly cruel dagger and I'm sure he could find some way of stalking and taunting the World Eaters Primarch until he had enough of an advantage to finally pick him off. As with all Primarch vs Primarch smackdowns it comes down to circumstance and luck in the end.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

A head on fight with no strats and just pure brawl and brawn Angron would win hands down and with a little medal to go with it. But Angrons weakness is his rash personality to jump into most things without thinking. Horus himself got mad when Angron got impatient in the Istavvan massacres and decided to go down and join the fight even thou he was told not to. 

Curze is a resourceful and cunning primarch, using his strengths to his advantage. The key for a surprise striker like Curze is to hit unexpectedly, without warning at a targets weakest moment or spot. In order to do that info must be gathered on said target to determine that. Curze is a thoughtful fighter, thou a bit of a loose cannon at times when he is unstable. IN a situation were Curze actually planned out a assault on Angron he might possibly win, but thats all speculation and a big maybe because we will never know and hey even with thoughtful tactics and strats and info, Angron is still one tough SoB.

AND, since you said it was a hand to hand duel ----> which usually means two opponents facing off in a arena of sorts, then Angron wins because thats the kind of situation were he can play to his strengths and use his skills and experiences to just thrash his opponent.


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## StudioColrouphobia (Apr 5, 2009)

Curze;

Angro is ar incarnate, sure, but Curze has foreseen his own death and its not by Angrons hands


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Angron would kill Konrad easily. As for the information on Angron it is said the ONLY TWO primarchs who could match or possibly beat him in a fight are Horus and Sanguinus.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

revan4559 said:


> Angron would kill Konrad easily. As for the information on Angron it is said the ONLY TWO primarchs who could match or possibly beat him in a fight are Horus and Sanguinus.


In Corax's opinion, delivered in a very off-hand manor and in passing. It was hardly reasoned and thought out there and then on the spot, in the middle of a battle.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angron killed several battle-ready Eldar the moment he crash landed as a baby/young boy.

No Primarch could match him one on one.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

There isnt a official list or comparison which shows which primarchs are better at fighting, their are those obvious primarchs that are good fighters as they centre their tactics around certain combat aspects and enhance it (Angron = Strength , where as Fulgrim = Balance/Perfection). I could see why Corax would state that those primarchs are the best fighters but we cant take it as fact, hell i was even surprised when Ferrus was beating Fulgrim just due to his strength (i would have thought that he would be outmanoeuvered and defeated by Fulgrim before the use of the Laer blade)


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Angron, he loved a good one-to-one fight.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

IMO, which may or may not be based off of fluff, Angron would fuck his face in with just his right index finger.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

In white dwarf, it is stated by horus that the only three primarchs defeated him in combat, russ, sanguinas, and a third which was not angron. 

Same white dwarf, horus monologues that he trained every primarch in the theatre of war and knows them in and out, all except konrad who is the sole primarch that trained himself in the arts of war. 

It furthers go on to state, Konrad is the only primarch he didn't duel, and train with, so take that as you will.

I personally interpret it as in Horus opinion the top three fighters above him are russ, sanguinas, and the third one which I honestly don't remember but can say with confidence wasn't angron. However contrastingly, horus expresses "caution" and arguably fear at the notion of fighting Konrad. Which he ultimately never did, not that we know of, so where konrad falls in the tier list of fighters I unknown only hinted. Such as horus not wanting to and ultimately not fighting him, as well as Dorn monologuing in lightening tower that he does not fear horus in tactics or skill, but fears konrad.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Angron killed several battle-ready Eldar the moment he crash landed as a baby/young boy.
> 
> No Primarch could match him one on one.


Who says that was Angron? It could just have easily been someone protecting Angron.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Jerushee said:


> In white dwarf, it is stated by horus that the only three primarchs defeated him in combat, russ, sanguinas, and a third which was not angron.
> 
> Same white dwarf, horus monologues that he trained every primarch in the theatre of war and knows them in and out, all except konrad who is the sole primarch that trained himself in the arts of war.
> 
> ...


Horus or the other Primarchs wouldn't want to duel with Kurze as he is unstable, all the other Primarchs could be trusted to duel, and just duel, as in know when to finish once the opponent was beaten. Kurze was just a little unhinged and an unknown. He couldn't be trusted finish a duel without causing serious harm to his opponent even once they were defeated.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Horus or the other Primarchs wouldn't want to duel with Kurze as he is unstable, all the other Primarchs could be trusted to duel, and just duel, as in know when to finish once the opponent was beaten. Kurze was just a little unhinged and an unknown. He couldn't be trusted finish a duel without causing serious harm to his opponent even once they were defeated.


He trusts Angron, the rage chip fueled berzerker, to stop. Once Angron's blood gets up he becomes almost impossible to hold back and losing would certainly get his blood up. So either Horus doesn't understand Angron very well or he considers Night Haunter harder to hold back (as in harder to stop once he goes psycho, not harder to keep from going to psycho). The first is unlikely and the second bodes well for Night Haunter in a fight.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Angron still has honor though, albiet a rather unique sense of honor. Kurze has none at all.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Angron still has honor though, albiet a rather unique sense of honor. Kurze has none at all.


That's all well and good but honour's not gonna hold him back once the chips kick in.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Who says that was Angron? It could just have easily been someone protecting Angron.


It's pretty established in the fluff is it not?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The fluff is that he was found, wounded, surrounded by the bodies of several Eldar ,not that he killed him. So it is possible that he never actually attacked them, but that someone, or something, intervened.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The fluff is that he was found, wounded, surrounded by the bodies of several Eldar ,not that he killed him. So it is possible that he never actually attacked them, but that someone, or something, intervened.


But isn't this reasoning a little Lux-like maybe that isn't even Angron..it could be Phil down the hall, daydreaming...It's so strongly implied that I can't see it meaning anything other than he killed them.

Wasn't it said in another source that the Eldar attempted to assassinate him? Because they forsaw the carnage and slaughter he would bring to the Galaxy or something?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's pretty established in the fluff is it not?





gen.ahab said:


> The fluff is that he was found, wounded, surrounded by the bodies of several Eldar ,not that he killed him. So it is possible that he never actually attacked them, but that someone, or something, intervened.





Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> But isn't this reasoning a little Lux-like maybe that isn't even Angron..it could be Phil down the hall, daydreaming...It's so strongly implied that I can't see it meaning anything other than he killed them.
> 
> Wasn't it said in another source that the Eldar attempted to assassinate him? Because they forsaw the carnage and slaughter he would bring to the Galaxy or something?


As _gen_ said, it is said that he was discovered surrounded by Eldar corpses, not that he killed them. Its just as plausable that agents of Khorne (or of Chaos in general) killed them to protect Angron, knowing what he would become. But this is really neither here nor there.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> But isn't this reasoning a little Lux-like maybe that isn't even Angron..it could be Phil down the hall, daydreaming...It's so strongly implied that I can't see it meaning anything other than he killed them.
> 
> Wasn't it said in another source that the Eldar attempted to assassinate him? Because they forsaw the carnage and slaughter he would bring to the Galaxy or something?


If what intervened was a group of Zimbabwean terrorist-accountants with paper hats, then yes, it is lux-ish.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> In white dwarf, it is stated by horus that the only three primarchs defeated him in combat, russ, sanguinas, and a third which was not angron.
> 
> Same white dwarf, horus monologues that he trained every primarch in the theatre of war and knows them in and out, all except konrad who is the sole primarch that trained himself in the arts of war.
> 
> ...


But isnt it stated in "Raven's Flight" that "At the time of the Horus Heresy it is said that no other Primarch could have bested Angron in single combat save for Horus and perhaps Sanguinius." Or so Lexicanum says. Using Raven's Flight as a reference. (Havent listened to the Audio book so i'm completely sure.)


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _gen_ said, it is said that he was discovered surrounded by Eldar corpses, not that he killed them. Its just as plausable that agents of Khorne (or of Chaos in general) killed them to protect Angron, knowing what he would become. But this is really neither here nor there.


Also didnt they say it was Xeno corpses and not Eldar? Imperial historians speculated that it was Eldar because only the Eldar could have forseen Angron's future, besides the Chaos Gods. Though it goes against Khorne's behavior to work in the shadows to preserve his favored?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _gen_ said, it is said that he was discovered surrounded by Eldar corpses, not that he killed them. Its just as plausable that agents of Khorne (or of Chaos in general) killed them to protect Angron, knowing what he would become. But this is really neither here nor there.


As kittyclaw said, if we go down this route then everything is subject to reinterpretation in the WH40k universe.

While it is understandable to disbelieve that Angron as a baby/youth killed the group of Eldar, Angron is a freak of nature even amongst the Primarchs.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> But isnt it stated in "Raven's Flight" that "At the time of the Horus Heresy it is said that no other Primarch could have bested Angron in single combat save for Horus and perhaps Sanguinius." Or so Lexicanum says. Using Raven's Flight as a reference. (Havent listened to the Audio book so i'm completely sure.)


It's Corax's opinion not much of a factual statement. And it was an audio book and so couldn't go into much detail I don't think.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Also didnt they say it was Xeno corpses and not Eldar? Imperial historians speculated that it was Eldar because only the Eldar could have forseen Angron's future, besides the Chaos Gods. Though it goes against Khorne's behavior to work in the shadows to preserve his favored?


Imperial historians speculated but also it's been shown in the fluff that the Eldar Farseer *insert name* predicted Angron's crash landing and what he would become in the future hence their attempt to assassinate him.


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

I would say Angron would kick Konrad's little ass. 

With the most recent argument, I don't believe Angron would have been able to defend himself at that age. Its like that scene in The First Heretic where the Chaos Gods are showing they were keeping their eyes on these fellas.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Some Call Me... TIM said:


> I would say Angron would kick Konrad's little ass.
> 
> With the most recent argument, I don't believe Angron would have been able to defend himself at that age. Its like that scene in The First Heretic where the Chaos Gods are showing they were keeping their eyes on these fellas.


Exactly. It's hard to believe Angron could do such a thing at that age but he is a Primarch and a monster of a Primarch.

Most likely the Eldar underestimated him and he grabbed the weapon of one of them and surprised them all by hitting the auto-fire button or something. 

We don't know how he killed them but it has been stated and as kittyclaw explained, he did kill them only without the fluff saying the words 'and Angron literally killed them' because it is assumed the reader would realize that the corpses of Eldar surrounding Angron were a result of his actions. 

If we question every little sentence and structure of the wording of the fluff then we wouldn't be getting anywhere


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Also didnt they say it was Xeno corpses and not Eldar?


IMO, what they were is irrelevant for these purposes. The only thing that matters is that they were dead and we cannot confirm that Angron was responsible for their deaths.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> But isnt it stated in "Raven's Flight" that "At the time of the Horus Heresy it is said that no other Primarch could have bested Angron in single combat save for Horus and perhaps Sanguinius." Or so Lexicanum says. Using Raven's Flight as a reference. (Havent listened to the Audio book so i'm completely sure.)


What corax thinks means almost nothing. Russ, Sang and some other dude, that wasn't Angron, were apparently the only ones who have bested Horus which seems to indicate Angron lost and if he lost it could be argued that there are at least 4 others that could beat him in a duel.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Most likely the Eldar underestimated him and he grabbed the weapon of one of them and surprised them all by hitting the auto-fire button or something.
> 
> We don't know how he killed them but it has been stated and as kittyclaw explained, he did kill them only without the fluff saying the words 'and Angron literally killed them' because it is assumed the reader would realize that the corpses of Eldar surrounding Angron were a result of his actions.
> 
> If we question every little sentence and structure of the wording of the fluff then we wouldn't be getting anywhere


Conjecture with nothing besides bodies to back it up. Hell, we don't even know if they had guns.

Where does it say he killed them? It doesn't? Nope. It says nothing, therefore we cannot just assume he killed them and go along our merry way.

Well, we could just make up shit as we go along, but that wouldn't get us anywhere either.


Look, I am not saying that it isn't reasonable, but when we are trying to determine skills we really can't use that instance as evidence to prove his skills due to the fact that we just don't know what happened.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> But isnt it stated in "Raven's Flight" that "At the time of the Horus Heresy it is said that no other Primarch could have bested Angron in single combat save for Horus and perhaps Sanguinius." Or so Lexicanum says. Using Raven's Flight as a reference. (Havent listened to the Audio book so i'm completely sure.)


As I said:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In Corax's opinion, delivered in a very off-hand manor and in passing. It was hardly reasoned and thought out there and then on the spot, in the middle of a battle.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think Corax's opinion should be given weight, it's by no means dispositive but it shouldn't be taken lightly 

Corax was a primarch, one of the more tactical ones too, I don't think his judgment would be irrelevant, his opinion wasn't given casually or without thought either...he assessed Angron's skill/strength because he was weighing what chance he'd have if he stood his ground against him
it's quite possible that not every primarch had sparred against every other primarch
but Corax had probably seen every primarch fight and thus had a good idea of the abilities of each 

as for Horus, I'm not familiar with the fluff that says only so and so had ever beaten him but it could be possible that Horus never sparred with Angron


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think Corax's opinion should be given weight, it's by no means dispositive but it shouldn't be taken lightly


No, of course not. But it also shouldn't be taken as a concrete fact.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I think Konrad Cruze would win. It would be a close and brutal fight. One I am sure Night Haunter would inevitably die in, even if it were after the fact -- but I feel Konrad would win. Angron is wild and frenzied -- Konrad I'm sure is more calm and collective.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Angron is a freak of nature even amongst the Primarchs.


Says who? Site one source which states that, at infancy, Angron was physically more capable than any other Primarch. Until he received his training and the Butcher's Nails there is nothing to suggest that Angron was a physically capable fighter beyond the level of his brothers. Indeed Curze shows more natural affinity for violence, being unique amongst his brothers in reaching for a weapon as soon as he emerged. 



> Imperial historians speculated but also it's been shown in the fluff that the Eldar Farseer *insert name* predicted Angron's crash landing and what he would become in the future hence their attempt to assassinate him.


If they wanted him dead that badly why didn't they try again? Just come back a couple days latter with ten times more dudes and smear the little-bastard. Clearly the Eldar have never been overly concerned with Angron (and why should they be?) or any Primarch (beyond Curze as indicated in _Lord of the Night_).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Indeed Curze shows more natural affinity for violence, being unique amongst his brothers in reaching for a weapon as soon as he emerged.


Were any primarchs exposed to a situation where they would require one, or even have one present?

The reason for his later behavior was probably his environment.


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