# Dorn Lives



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Got my hands on the new Space Marine Codex today and found a VERY interesting piece of lore. Rogal Dorn is no longer confirmed dead. This text is straight from the Codex pages on the Imperial Fists.



SM Codex said:


> *HAND OF DORN*
> 
> Rogal Dorn is believed to have died whilst fighting a Chaos fleet, and was last reported storming the battleship, Sword of Sacrilege. When the Imperial Fists defeated the Chaos fleet, the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist. Dorn’s skeletal hand was returned to Phalanx where, over the years, it has been scrimshawed with the names of every Imperial Fists Chapter Master. The Hand of Dorn is the Imperial Fists’ holiest icon and it serves as a reminder of sacrifice and commitment. So it is that, throughout the Imperial Fists’ history, from the Ork Onslaughts of M32 to the 13th Black Crusade, they have drawn inspiration from their Primarch’s remains and resolved to defeat their foes or die in the attempt.


So now the only Imperial Primarchs that are 100% dead are Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus. Dorn can now be counted among the Primarchs who could return one day with Leman Russ and Corax and Jaghatai Khan. I quite like this addition, as Dorn is becoming quite a cool character in the Heresy series and i'm pleased to know he might be able to return for the End Times.


LotN


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Im glad this is the most recent fluff, as this is what i have believed.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm sorry but I can't believe that a primarch that was wounded AND stuck on in a chaos fleet is going to live for long.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Considering the remaining possibly live loyalist Primarchs are supposed to be somewhere in the Warp, with the exception of the Kahn in the Webway, I do find it odd that no daemon has ever ridiculed some Grey Knight or Inquisitor with the potential. After 9,000 years of absenteeism you would think some sort of comments/rumors would be circulating if they were still in existence somewhere. And yes, time passes differently in the warp, but what daemon could resist throwing, "your Primarch is still alive in my domain, but has abandoned you" in the face of an Astares?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The only thing that the quote fails to mention is Dorn's body encased in amber. As far as I'm concerned it changes nothing.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only thing that the quote fails to mention is Dorn's body encased in amber.


Not questioning it's veracity, but I've never heard this one before. Is this the "Giant Man in Baroque Power Armor" entombed in Trazyn's collection?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only thing that the quote fails to mention is Dorn's body encased in amber. As far as I'm concerned it changes nothing.


Huh? it says "the *only *trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist".

I guess you won't give in and finally accept what I've been saying for so long, even with the new proof.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Not questioning it's veracity, but I've never heard this one before. Is this the "Giant Man in Baroque Power Armor" entombed in Trazyn's collection?


The first Novel _Space Marine_ said they had his entire skeleton encased in Amber.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Honestly, they need to kill off more Primarchs, including the Chaos ones, not bring them back to life.

It was novel when Guilliman was "miraculously healing" and Russ had promised to come back for the end times. But over the years it's spiraled out of control to where Primarchs previously missing came back, and now dead Primarchs are coming back to life.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Huh? it says "the *only *trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist".
> 
> I guess you won't give in and finally accept what I've been saying for so long, even with the new proof.


I know, but as far as I'm concerned it still changes nothing...


Lord of the Night said:


> as Dorn is becoming quite a cool character in the Heresy series and i'm pleased to know he might be able to return for the End Times.


...because we know GW will *never* venture into the Primarch's returning. 

The whole attitude and mantra of the Imperial Fists post-Dorn is based around their Primarch's sacrifice on the _Sword of Sacrilege_.

To those conspiracy theorists who believe Dorn is alive: So, he was swamped by hordes of Chaos devotees (as per logical assumption as well as Curze's visions), lost (at least) a hand, and then ran away from his Legion? Yeah, okay.

EDIT: I appreciate the objective notion behind the 'disappearances' of the Primarchs; Arthurian legend type thing, but using this new information to argue he's alive just seems a bit pointless to me.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Hey, as long as we're bringing people back to life, why can't we bring Commander Boreale back to life? All must hear of the glorious duteh of Spess Mehreens to serve the Emprah with Steel Rehn.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah because Leman Russ did the exact same thing and the Khan never came back and so did Corax and possibly Vulkan to, seems to me the Emperor commanded them to get lost when they could, in Russ's instance he got a message after being drunk, told Bjorn he'd be back for Wolftime and then decided to get naked in the eye. 

All the Primarchs disappearances are weird. Dorn cutting off his own hand to leave it as a message for his sons and then using an escape pod/boarding torpedo/small craft to leave the sword of sacriledge could easily happen in my mind. Dorn did what he was told but he sacrificed his hand in the process because he's a sucker for pain and duty, and probably felty guilty by leaving.

Also the vision of Curze leaves a lot of interpretation, the visions are not at the moment the persons death, curze only considers it must be their death, however then he would of saw Fulgrim cutting off Ferrus's head and we know that Fulgrim and Lorgar didn't die merely ascended, the vision of Dorn going down under a pile of bodies could immediately be proceeded by him hulking up and bursting fourth throwing them everywhere.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I know, but as far as I'm concerned it still changes nothing...
> 
> ...because we know GW will *never* venture into the Primarch's returning.
> 
> ...


The primarchs won't return until it profits GW for them to return.

What I find strange is this.

Why have vulkan become a perpetual 
Why this piece of lore? 

What does it do? that is what I can't understand.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Personally I believe GW has left room for them to bring back any primarch they want, they could easy say Gulliman has been healing. Furthermore they could say Ferrus's body and head were taken to mars and with C'Tan technology he is some sort of android in suspended animation.

Curze could very well be alive too, it could have all been an illusion, or maybe he put his spirit in his soul stone crown, IE no one knows.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Ok, I cannot argue with the text. It says the only trace they found was his hand. However I am inclined to agree with CotE. Simply put, this is an example of either very poor proof reading or an ignorance of the fluff by the codex writers. I have read the sections in older fluff where dorn is encased in amber. As far as I am concerned it is a fuckup by GW, and the new dex is at fault. They really need to get their house in order as this is pathetic.

Good one lux. The greatest end line of all.'He woke up, it was all a dream.' That's a great argument.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I'd love to see the primarchs come back. When the Horus Heresy series is all wrapped up maybe GW could move the 40K story along and have the various primarchs reappearing. Maybe as a plot that seems a little bit too WWE for many people, but screw it. I'd buy it.

A codex supplement (for both SM and CSM) 'The Primarchs' would be amazing. They could be a bit like the old special characters requiring 2000 points and the opponent's consent to use. I'm dreaming here and don't ever think it would happen... but just maybe...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

shaantitus said:


> Ok, I cannot argue with the text. It says the only trace they found was his hand. However I am inclined to agree with CotE. Simply put, this is an example of either very poor proof reading or an ignorance of the fluff by the codex writers. I have read the sections in older fluff where dorn is encased in amber. As far as I am concerned it is a fuckup by GW, and the new dex is at fault. They really need to get their house in order as this is pathetic.
> 
> Good one lux. The greatest end line of all.'He woke up, it was all a dream.' That's a great argument.


I think they know it's a major source of discussion on boards, to me it seems clear they've come out on the side of only finding a hand, since the space marine novel was so old, the Index Astartes astartes article was vague and the previous codex didn't even address it. 

Now it actually says they only found his hand which is exactly what one side of the argument has been saying all along, to me this means they've come out on that side which means it's settled, they found only his hand and it's more ambiguous as to whether he's alive or not.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I don't think vague is the correct term. The words 'dorn's body encased in amber' were used. For me, the quality of the fluff, the main reason I like this game in the first place, is seriously beginning to erode.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

How exactly is this proof Dorn is alive? 

It's nigh identical to the old Index Astartes text and everyone accepted then that Dorn was dead. This changes nothing, it was most likely a change resulting from them copying out the old text but putting it into new words rather than deliberately changing it so that there's the possibility of Dorn still being alive.

I think you're reading into it way too much.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

shaantitus said:


> Ok, I cannot argue with the text. It says the only trace they found was his hand. However I am inclined to agree with CotE. Simply put, this is an example of either very poor proof reading or an ignorance of the fluff by the codex writers. I have read the sections in older fluff where dorn is encased in amber. As far as I am concerned it is a fuckup by GW, and the new dex is at fault. They really need to get their house in order as this is pathetic.
> 
> Good one lux. The greatest end line of all.'He woke up, it was all a dream.' That's a great argument.


Clearly matt ward made a mistake, otherwise gulliman would be alive.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Clearly matt ward made a mistake, otherwise gulliman would be alive.


It very well could be a dream, this entire heresy could all be a vision that Curze is experiencing. Furthermore the last book released will reveal to the readers that is was another one of Curze's visions he was experiencing, and that it is still early in the great crusade.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> It very well could be a dream, this entire heresy could all be a vision that Curze is experiencing. Furthermore the last book released will reveal to the readers that is was another one of Curze's visions he was experiencing, and that it is still early in the great crusade.


So, Warhammer 40,000: The Line?


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## ShadowMatt (Sep 9, 2008)

I can't see GW bringing back any Primarchs - they don't need to. The timeline hasn't really advanced at all for several editions now, and FW are doing amazing things with Crusade/Heresy era mini's. We will all soon be playing WH30K instead.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Rems said:


> How exactly is this proof Dorn is alive?
> 
> It's nigh identical to the old Index Astartes text and everyone accepted then that Dorn was dead. This changes nothing, it was most likely a change resulting from them copying out the old text but putting it into new words rather than deliberately changing it so that there's the possibility of Dorn still being alive.
> 
> I think you're reading into it way too much.


It's not identical though, before it said they only found his remains and used his hand for scrimshawing, however now it says they only found his hand. I'm not saying Dorn is a live but it's a lot more open for him being so.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And yet they are still referring to it as his 'remains', this still fits with his hand being the only salvageable or intact part of his body that they could recover. Which makes sense, as if I and a large, large group of others managed to kill a Primarch or lay him low, I would chop him up into as many pieces as possible.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

No it says they only found his hand, it no longer says remains.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No, it says remains later on in the quote.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

"the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist"

Yeah but now his remains are defined as only his fist. since it definitively says they only found his fist. Which is what I've been saying all a long, and not it's been confirmed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Ok, I cannot argue with the text. It says the only trace they found was his hand. However I am inclined to agree with CotE. Simply put, this is an example of either very poor proof reading or an ignorance of the fluff by the codex writers. I have read the sections in older fluff where dorn is encased in amber. As far as I am concerned it is a fuckup by GW, and the new dex is at fault. They really need to get their house in order as this is pathetic.


I wouldn't go as far as to call it pathetic. After all, the lore has always been fluid and ambiguous:



Marc Gascoigne said:


> Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
> 
> Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
> 
> I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.


My point was that I don't think people should use this new quote from the new codex to automatically claim Dorn's not necessarily dead. Was he necessarily dead anyway? I thought so (and still think so), but that was never objective.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm not really sure how this is proof that Dorn is alive. After all, the text in the same Codex talks about Dorn's ''final moments'' of ''courage and supreme sacrifice''. They recovered his hand, but it doesn't exactly sound like he's alive.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

People are literally taking the meaning of Dorn's alive as stating it as fact when it's not, it's like saying Russ is alive, or Corax is alive, or Vulkan's alive. It means he's not 100% dead as others have been saying. It's a sarcastic way of doing it. If you want, translate it as saying "Dorn might be alive", just like how the whole book Vulkan Lives is mostly based on the belief he's alive rather than there being any actual proof.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It still proves nothing either way, and doesn't change my opinion at all that he's dead.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I see... its becoming a G. I. Joe series. No one dies, they just parachute before their ships blow up and run away to fight another day. Loken is alive, all the primarchs are alive... as we will see Gav Thorpe use Lux's ideas of the paper heads. Lux is Gav Thorpe isn't he? Or Matt Ward.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I see... its becoming a G. I. Joe series. No one dies, they just parachute before their ships blow up and run away to fight another day. Loken is alive, all the primarchs are alive... as we will see Gav Thorpe use Lux's ideas of the paper heads. Lux is Gav Thorpe isn't he? Or Matt Ward.


Like I said, inb4 Boreale's alive, waiting for the right moment to return to the Blohd Rayvans and commence Steel Rehn for the Emprah once more.


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## Primarch Tolu (Mar 27, 2011)

Squire said:


> I'd love to see the primarchs come back.* When the Horus Heresy series is all wrapped up maybe GW could move the 40K story along and have the various primarchs reappearing. Maybe as a plot that seems a little bit too WWE for many people, but screw it. I'd buy it.*
> 
> A codex supplement (for both SM and CSM) 'The Primarchs' would be amazing. They could be a bit like the old special characters requiring 2000 points and the opponent's consent to use. I'm dreaming here and don't ever think it would happen... but just maybe...


That's the only thing that will save this entire series, are they still going to be making the same grim dark bolter porn stories in five or ten years time?

Pretty depressing to think they might be.

Having the primarchs return and the emperor ascend into the warp would really shake the story up and provide new and really interesting paths to take the story down.


The meaning of godhood, how mankind fares in this universe with a fully realised human god. The changes to the primarchs, how they now see the legions and humans, the potential for epic stories is just amazing.

Shame they won't ever do it


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Considering the remaining possibly live loyalist Primarchs are supposed to be somewhere in the Warp, with the exception of the Kahn in the Webway, ...


Lion El'Jonson is certainly not in the Warp; he is sleeping in the core of the Rock and his wounds are healed, per the latest Codex: Dark Angels.

Jaghatai Khan was lost in the Webway during the Scouring, but in 'Scars' a vision Stormseer Yesugei receives is strongly implied to refer to this event and points to the Primarch's death. Granted, that's no guarantee of anything, but see below.

Leman Russ abruptly left his Chapter, announcing he would return for the End Times. Depending on the source you read, he went looking for the Lion, and/or left his weapons and armour behind later on in his journey (a possible hint toward a more advanced state of lycanthropy - like the Wulfen).

Rogal Dorn was last seen boarding a Chaos warship. Apparently only one of his hands was recovered.

Guilliman is in a stasis field, frozen at the moment of death.

Corax departed for the Eye of Terror in despair over the monstrous creatures he created in his attempt to rebuild his Legion.

Vulkan's current location is unknown. His demise cannot be taken for granted given what we saw in 'Vulkan Lives' and the ending of 'The Unremembered Empire'.

So really only three of the seven loyal Primarchs who didn't die "classic deaths" are in the Warp or strongly implied to be there.

Does this text change anything where Dorn is concerned? Well, it really depends on how much weight you give certain fluff. 'The Unremembered Empire' showed us that, under the right conditions (in this case, an almost perfect ambush) ten Space Marines could plausibly _almost_ kill a Primarch. I hesitate to write off any major character in a fictional whose death is not directly witnessed, but what chance does Rogal Dorn have on a Chaos warship full of Traitor Legionnaires? "Why, about as much chance as Konrad Curze did aboard the Lion's flagship, Phoebus," you might say. And you'd be right to do so.

Hell, it's been a while since I read 'Angel Exterminatus', but try telling me that "Iron Heart" device - *which healed wounds while it's subject was in stasis* - wasn't meant to get you to think of Guilliman's current condition.

As things stand, the fates of the Primarchs have been written so that their possible return is no more or less plausible that of them actually being dead. That's just my opinion, of course. 



Primarch Tolu said:


> That's the only thing that will save this entire series, are they still going to be making the same grim dark bolter porn stories in five or ten years time?
> 
> Pretty depressing to think they might be.


I don't see how this viewpoint is indicative of the fiction with the Warhammer 40k logo (i.e., stories set in the 41st millennium). Meaning, it's not as if the writers are stuck writing stories in 999.M41; most are actually based on significant events in the relatively recent past. The 'Gaunt's Ghosts' and 'Macharian Crusade' series, for instance, are set centuries in the past. Of those stories set in the relative present, a large number are tied into the Thirteenth Black Crusade. Others, including the well-received Night Lords series, only associate themselves with major events to a certain degree, but don't seem to suffer from the lack of movement on the galactic calendar. And, of course, the Space Marines Battles series have been all over the timeline.

I'm not here to tell you that each of the above titles should have been a New York Times Bestseller, but clearly the lack of timeline progress doesn't preclude the authors from writing enjoyable stories.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not here to tell you that each of the above titles should have been a New York Times Bestseller, but clearly the lack of timeline progress doesn't preclude the authors from writing enjoyable stories.


I completely agree.

We have ten thousand years of relatively unexplored history to tap into. Heck, the Heresy series has already pumped out 30-odd novels (and god knows how many shorts, audios and the like) which _only_ covers about 15 years of those ten thousand we have available to explore. Why does the setting have to move beyond 999.M41 to remain interesting?

Now, I happen to think that the majority of BL's novel output is utter crockshite and I abhor what is commonly referred to as 'bolter porn'. But that doesn't remove the potential for fantastic plots and characters from the Imperium's long history being explored/created. We do, after all, get the occasional novel or series which makes the grade.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I think people want the story to movie forward because GW has done such a great job of creating cliff hangers. 

'Ohhhhhhhhhh, if Abaddon takes down Cadia what will happen!?!?!?'
'Ohhhhhhhhhh, if the Tyranids win there will be super Tyranids and if the Orks win there will be super Orks!!!! Whoever wins will dominate the universe right!?!?!?!?!
'Ohhhhhhhhhh, Necrons are gaining more and more power!!!!! Who will they destroy first!?!?!?!?'

And you see where this is going. SOOOOO much in the 40K universe is coming to a climax and people just want to know what will happen. 


Granted there is a lot of history to cover yet, but what can be said that hasn't already. You can only write so many books about Fulgrim being a super bad guy and Guilliman being a super good guy. There can only be so many Guardsmen like Cain. Eventually it is all going to be incredibly redundant. Then, and only then, do I feel that GW will decide to progress the story.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I disagree with the points you make in your third paragraph. Using that logic, you could literally say, "Who wants to read about World War I? We've read so much about World War II, all those soldiers and generals and politicians are the same after a while." Except that's completely not true, is it? In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to say that about just one of those wars. There were three different major fronts that were fought in the Second World War alone, and several "secondary" theaters of operation. There was blitzkrieg, u-boat operations, aerial warfare, naval battles, amphibious assaults, alpine warfare, arctic warfare, desert warfare, sieges, airborne operations, commando raids, and the list just goes on.

With Warhammer 40k, you're literally taking about ten thousand years' worth of war. The best Black Library stories will take inspiration from that fact, and will avoid redundancy. Will that always happen? No, of course not. I'll be the first to admit that I'm tired of reading the sort of recycled, so-called "epic" battle scene we saw in 'Pandorax' and half a dozen other books. But that's not proof that the *concept itself* isn't more than capable of producing tons of stories.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Why are people so insistent on moving the progress forward? I'm getting real tired of hearing this. Beside the fact of much which is still unexplored, which has already been said, look at what this is. It's a setting for the present time games. The main priority of 40k lay at the models. That's how it started and where the main focus lay. GW was smart enough to insert deep and at some points comical background stories to this to make it more epic. Like this it has been for almost 30 years.

Then for the past 15 years they have tried to explore that background through BL. They are not supposed to continue the story as it is a setting, not a story. The players of 40k are supposed to make the future happen through their battles. BL are only there for the good tie-in-fiction of what has been established in the past. We are not moving past the 41st millenium, we are not seeing who will be the ultimate winner, we will not see the Emperor die and what would happen next and we certainly will not see the Primarchs post-heresy/Scouring-timeline with the exception of daemon-primarchs and even that is rare. Get over yourselves!


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

In my opinion, once the series starts having characters seemingly die then magically come back to life, it will be dead to me.

Once its established that no one actually stays dead, then death loses all meaning, I absoloutley adore Dorn, But he is honestly better off dead, though never outright state he is dead, so i can still dream.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

None of the primarchs are truly "dead", they are only as invisible as you want them to be.

As for me being a writer employed by Black Library, well...I suppose only certain individuals of this site would have a say on that. However as all things in black library are, everything is composed of strings pertaining to speculation and revenue.

Cheers.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Lux said:


> None of the primarchs are truly "dead", they are only as invisible as you want them to be.


The Night Haunter and Horus beg to differ :wink:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Night haunter as well as horus are both still "alive", the writers will bring them back into the light when the revenue streams deem it so.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> The Night Haunter and Horus beg to differ :wink:


Never underestimate the power of paper maiche heads. ;-)


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Lux said:


> None of the primarchs are truly "dead", they are only as invisible as you want them to be.
> 
> As for me being a writer employed by Black Library, well...I suppose only certain individuals of this site would have a say on that. However as all things in black library are, everything is composed of strings pertaining to speculation and revenue.
> 
> Cheers.


You work for BL? Awesome. :victory:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> As for me being a writer employed by Black Library


No you're not.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Ah COTE, such a beautiful child of reality you are.


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