# Let's talk about the Book of Hoeth



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Or, y'know, the F****** Book of Hoeth if you play some army other than High Elves.


Which brings me nicely onto the problem with which I'm faced. I like to consider myself an honourable man, so obviously, I've never even considered using the Book. Until now.

My main opponants are Dwarves and Ogres, both gunline. I'm starting to feel that if these gentlemen are going to take four runed up warmachines at 1'500 points, or two great big units of leadbelchers and an ironblaster, the Hellheart and is painting up poison-sniper maneaters as we speak, then that may simply mean they'd rather play hardball and I'd better play it to.

And the Book is how the High Elves play that game.


I'm still wondering if it's going too far, though. I'm still able to snatch a win here and there but I do not foresee things become easier.

Too far? Likely to escalate things farther?


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

I am a Lizardmen player and an Ogre player (VC and O&G too). I like to play for fun. If I were playing you, I would not consider it too cheesy. Hell, I do not mind playing against Teclis. In a 'friendly' game, I expect to see your best stuff. If it is a little cheesy, so be it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

As a player that runs Teclis and a book of hoeth Archamge when I can, I could not care any less about the whining of players when the Book is in out on the field.

Simple fact is, it's in the current book, it will be changed/nerfed in the next one. So just enjoy it while you can.

And yes, both my mages sit in a PG fortress with BOFTWD. And what?


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

If you've been holding back and they've been busting out the Limburger, I say you have every right to bring a little pain. :good:


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I think if you play in a competative envirnment then book of hoeth is fine it's only against fluff players or in softer freindly games that it's over the top.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I don't like the book or big T. I would occasionally crack out Teclis to have a bit of fun and show people that I actually had a relatively nice list... but I wouldn't use either every game. Once in a while is an interesting fight, every week is really really boring (as I used to find when my most common opponents were 2 HE players, both with 50+ spearmen/LSG, one with Teclis one with book... boring as hell).


Personally I would just take the sacred incense and a 4++ on my archmage and make sure most of my specials were phoenix guard.... but then since I tended to phoenix guard anyway that would suit me fine.
Sniper maneaters will normally be hitting on 6s anyway, so any extra -1 really screws them over (they'll be forced to single shot). A really expensive unit causing a wound to your character once for every 6 models is pretty rubbish.... especially if you play life (I would) and can just heal them back. Not mentioning the ward save...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I will take this moment to reveal I barely play a game a month due to work now, haha.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Just go for the Archmage with Forlariths Robes, see how well the Maneaters get on after they waste their shooting into him. Hard gunline is actually quite tricky for High Elves so why not rock out Teclis just for some fun. Hard gunline is desperately unfun to play against so crush their dreams of a fun game as well.


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

Those maneaters would do better with the scout + stubborn rule. I agree with Tim/Steve, they will not be able to really do anything unless they single shot.


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## All_Is_Dust (Aug 21, 2011)

It's up to you and your friends. It's not worth ruining the game over if your friends cry about it. But honestly if your friends cry about it then maybe find someone else to play with. All my friends could care less. I just let them know in advance I'm going to be using it (I don't use it every game as it does get boring). 

I saw someone's quote and I really liked it. I think it was Deathklokks. ""Cheese!" is the battle cry of the ill prepared.


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

All_Is_Dust said:


> I saw someone's quote and I really liked it. I think it was Deathklokks. ""Cheese!" is the battle cry of the ill prepared.


I agree!


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Cheese in my mind is a build or army construction that gives one an unfair advantage over opponents such that winning is accomplished more by the army composition than the skill of the player. There is "cheese" and there is simply not fun, fair or sporting. I would dare say that, no matter how nice you might be, bringing a wizard with Book of Hoeth (Teclis or archmage), putting him in a folding fortress, and then having a large unit in there with a BSB with or without the banner of world dragon would be considered extremely cheesey and an automatic bad game vote and many people would simply sit out of range and play for a draw or minor loss or minor win (kill the stuff not in the fortress and generally stay out of range of the fortress). It is not a good game to play and most people hate playing with or against such an army. Given that, why do it? Win at all costs is a good way to get oneself banned or to find that many people simply won't play you anymore. Anyone who thinks these builds are okay to play and there is nothing wrong with them seriously needs to reexamine themselves and realize that they are being a jerk and violating the spirit of the rules as set forth in the BRB. 

I play in an environment where most armies and magic items are allowed but special characters, at least certain ones and the lord level characters in the books prior to 8th edition, are typically restricted or banned. Few magic items are banned in most of our tournaments, but Book of Hoeth and certain lord level special characters (at least Teclis and Kairos) and often the folding fortress are commonly banned, which should tell you that they are not fun to play against (in part because of the badly designed building rules in 8th edition) and designed to break the game. With the folding fortress, some tournaments, alternatively, allow it but then limit the size of the unit that can inhabit a building and the size of the folding fortress (3 levels, 30 models). Generally, over-the-top armies are typically penalized by getting bad game votes and that is usually enough disincentive to discourage people running broken tricks. 

Running 50 or 100 archers or spearmen in a folding fortress multiple levels high with Teclis (or an archmage with Book of Hoeth) and the banner of world dragon BSB is not only not fun to play with or against, but it violates the spirit of the game as set forth in the BRB. There is little or no skill or strategy to play such an army. In an Ard Boyz type match, I don't mind seeing Teclis or an archmage with book of hoeth (as long as not in the broken build) but I would not approve of the folding fortress and banner of world dragon combo with either Teclis or the archmage with Book of Hoeth for the reasons stated above.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

olderplayer said:


> *Snip*


I agree with some parts, but cheese IS the battlecry of the ill prepared. It really falls to annoying your opponent. If your opponent is frustrated and never has a chance of winning then he will be frustrated and not want to play you anymore meaning it is just bad for everyone.

Arbitrary standards of "overpowered" will not do anything for anyone beside ignite pointless discussion. Find out the average power level of your opponents and build your list so it won't crush or be crushed by them. That is really the only way to avoid all the crazy crap that comes up.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I have yet to face an army that includes either T or the Book... someone mind filling me in on what they do?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The Book of Hoeth makes any roll of a double which beats the casting value of the spell Irresistible Force.

Teclis chooses his spell lore after Deployment, is a Loremaster of that Lore and gets Irresistible Force on any double and can ignore his first Miscast of every turn.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Teclis's magic abilities make it very hard because he can throw 6 dice at something like dwellers and vritually be guaranteed of getting a double, meaning it cannot be stopped and also can ignore the miscast risk of double 6's. Teclis is not hard to kill if you can get to him in combat, so the typical strategy is to bury him in a tough unit screened by other stuff. 

By putting Teclis in a building, one is exploiting the poorly written 8th edition building rules that limit each side to only 10 models in combat during an assault and defense of the building. That allows Teclis to decline a challenge and avoid base-to-base contact until 10 or fewer models are left in the building. It also limits the amount of combat (no multiple units or flanking or rear attacks). Teclis with lore of life can regrow the unit as models are lost and cast flesh to stone on the unit in order to make it much harder to kill models in combat. Putting something lke 100 archers in the building makes it very difficult to kill enough archers in four or five round of combat to get to Teclis. Also, the building rules are strange. Even if you win combat in the assault on the building, the unit within remains steadfast and, with the BSB and general, is unlikely to break. If the defending unit does not break, then the assaulting unit must step back from the building and sit there during the HE turn (stupid rule) and get shot by the archers (the reason why HE put archers in buildings with multiple levels) and damaged by magic from the mage(s) in the building without being able to fight during the HE turn. That cuts in half the number of rounds of combat that can occur with the unit in the building and makes it more likely that the assaulting unit will often fail or be destroyed to the point that it flees and cannot rally (below 25% of original size). 

Finally, the Banner of World Dragon makes a unit generally immune to magic spells that directly affect the unit but not those that augment or affect an attacking unit (Skaven cracks call and vortexes may be able to by-pass it since they target a direction and not a unit).


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

olderplayer said:


> Teclis's magic abilities make it very hard because he can throw 6 dice at something like dwellers and vritually be guaranteed of getting a double, meaning it cannot be stopped and also can ignore the miscast risk of double 6's. Teclis is not hard to kill if you can get to him in combat, so the typical strategy is to bury him in a tough unit screened by other stuff.
> 
> By putting Teclis in a building, one is exploiting the poorly written 8th edition building rules that limit each side to only 10 models in combat during an assault and defense of the building. That allows Teclis to decline a challenge and avoid base-to-base contact until 10 or fewer models are left in the building. It also limits the amount of combat (no multiple units or flanking or rear attacks). Teclis with lore of life can regrow the unit as models are lost and cast flesh to stone on the unit in order to make it much harder to kill models in combat. Putting something lke 100 archers in the building makes it very difficult to kill enough archers in four or five round of combat to get to Teclis. Also, the building rules are strange. Even if you win combat in the assault on the building, the unit within remains steadfast and, with the BSB and general, is unlikely to break. If the defending unit does not break, then the assaulting unit must step back from the building and sit there during the HE turn (stupid rule) and get shot by the archers (the reason why HE put archers in buildings with multiple levels) and damaged by magic from the mage(s) in the building without being able to fight during the HE turn. That cuts in half the number of rounds of combat that can occur with the unit in the building and makes it more likely that the assaulting unit will often fail or be destroyed to the point that it flees and cannot rally (below 25% of original size).
> 
> Finally, the Banner of World Dragon makes a unit generally immune to magic spells that directly affect the unit but not those that augment or affect an attacking unit (Skaven cracks call and vortexes may be able to by-pass it since they target a direction and not a unit).



Yeah, that doesn't sound like any fun at all.

I mean I'm all for a good challenge, and usually like to face others' "cheese" just to learn how best to deal with it. But that just doesn't sound like an interesting battle.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

olderplayer said:


> Teclis's magic abilities make it very hard because he can throw 6 dice at something like dwellers and vritually be guaranteed of getting a double, meaning it cannot be stopped and also can ignore the miscast risk of double 6's. Teclis is not hard to kill if you can get to him in combat, so the typical strategy is to bury him in a tough unit screened by other stuff.


A 1 in 46'656 chance of not casting it irrisistably... and if its not cast irrisistably you'll still have a total of 25 and have cast any spell he can have (I believe). Worse is that he only miscasts on a roll of double 6, even though all other doubles give irrisistable force... and if he does roll 6,6 then you ignore the miscast and just roll few dice for other spells or switch mages.
Teclis is fecking HORRIBLE. He was nasty in 7th but 8th has seen him become insane.

The local players that took teclis (haven't seen them around for some time) had him in units of spearmen/LSG 50-60+ strong. So when you reached combat you had to survive ~50 S3 attacks... so even suiciding into the unit to take out big T is pretty hard to do.

I can't remember building rules, but I'm pretty sure you dont have to pick characters as part of your 10 models in the assault.. which is stupud. It lets teclis and a banner of the world dragon and any other mages you have sit in a building and be almost untouchable. Cast even a lower level flesh to stone and your archers will be T5 and you'll never kill enough of them do anything important to the unit... and even if you beat htem failing a Ld10 rerollable test is just not going to happen anytime soon (and if it does you can't pursue).
... bloody silly.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Maybe its me but I don't see much of a problem with those casters... I'm typically rolling around with a level 5 death wizard though. Character sniping is fun.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

That's where the banner of the world dragon comes in.... "I'm sorry, all of my insanely powerful characters and most expensive unit are utterly immune to all of your magic, go fish."
HE can do some very bad things.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

I see... I see... I guess at that point, I just have to depend on chariot swarm impact hits. Time to revamp my TK list for 2k points.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Lord Azune said:


> I see... I see... I guess at that point, I just have to depend on chariot swarm impact hits. Time to revamp my TK list for 2k points.


No Impact Hits in Buildings. I hear Purple Sun does bad things to Tomb Kings.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Purple Sun does bad things to most things with crappy init. Its a favorite of mine against Lizardmen personally. But you do have a point on the impact hits against buildings. I suppose taking on a Hoeth or Teclis build would require a pretty specialized list. I'll have to look at my army book and figure it out


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

If fighting against either bunkered in a bit unit and hiding in a building, especially if protected by the world dragon then I'd not bother to play his game: many people take life for their lv4s so I would just sit outside of 24" (more likely much further) and let them rot in there.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

In more of a response to the OP, I wouldn't see the harm in taking JUST the book to help out vs tooled up gunline OK w/ a "Deathfister". Take it in babysteps - don't go from the kiddie pool straight to the high dive. :wink:

If you still have issues after that, then throw in the BotWD so the Deathfister can't rape your caster, and use a sub-optimal lore.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

While fighting a Teclis or Book of Hoeth army is not fun generally because of the IF on all doubles makes for broken magic, HE armies are not top tier and can be beat if that is all that is taken. I have and will play against such an army, but not if the building rules are not modified and will refuse if the banner of the world dragon is on a BSB in a building. Like others, if I have no choice, I just sit back out of range and try to kill what i can get to and hope that high army cannot get to me. If there are more than a couple of eagles outside the building I can get to and fight something worthwhile, I might sally forth just long enough to be effective and then retreat back out of range. 

There are multiple obvious fixes to these abusive builds:
1. The "Clown Car" limit rule: the number of models in a unit that can occupy a building is limited to either 30 standard models (10 monstrous) or 10 standard models per level with the maximum number of levels at 3. (Commonly adopted rule in our region.) 
2. Ban Folding Fortress (commonly adopted with or as alternative to 1)
3. The unit assaulting the unit does not have to back up 1" from the building and can remain in base contact and in combat in the next combat phase (at its option) if it wins on CR in the assault. (worked well at local one-day I hosted in December in conjunction with the first fix)
4. ETC-type size limit of units rules (maximum unit size of 45 models or 450 points whichever is less) (FYI I am not a fan of the blanket ETC rule due to some units, such as goblins and skaven being allowed to be larger in models and be fair and elite units being allowed to exceed 450 points and be fair. Single model greater daemons exceed 450 points if properly kitted ).
5. Require at least two core units with at least 100 points or 10 models in each. Require four units. 
6. Design objective-based scenarios/battles that require one to come out and fight and reward having more units and standards such as control center of table, capture the flag/control some object, control table quarters, more units in opposing deployment zone or side of table, and more standards in units controlled at end of game held plus captured in combat such that a Teclis/Book of Hoeth mage in building army cannot win and is likely to lose.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Personally if I were house ruling buildings I wouldn't chance anything from the way it is now... except that if you lost the combat but past your break test then you are forced back from the building in the opposite direction to the attacker (attacker takes building, defender is pushed 1" away facing the building).

It wouldn't really stop such abuses as have been mentioned in this thread (but wouldn't hurt) but it would stop games of watchtower from being so godawfully boring. Any tough/large undead/daemon unit in a building and you are forced to kill all of them to win the game... with only magic/shooting or combat every other turn to manage it. Very silly game type.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> That's where the banner of the world dragon comes in.... "I'm sorry, all of my insanely powerful characters and most expensive unit are utterly immune to all of your magic, go fish."
> HE can do some very bad things.


Except that is a rather double-edged sword at times. Sure being immune to enemy spells sounds awesome but how about your own? Banner of the World Dragon stops ALL magic. A life wielding Teclis would be unable to even regen his own wounds after successfully casting spells thanks to Banner of the World Dragon.

Easiest way of dealing with Teclis is to charge his unit. Have a guy in base to base contact (but do not declare a challenge. I use Lord Skrolk for this) and then pummel the shit out of the fella (again Skrolk says take a T test or die with no saves of any kind allowed. 2/3 times Teclis dies. If not then 5 attacks at S6 normally puts the guy down.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes, a life teclis in a world dragon list is sheer stupidity. Normally you'll see him take shadow instead in that case.

That works if the HE player is stupid, or mindlocked to his course. A good HE player just moves his characters around and then buffs the unit (normally it'd be shadows so you'll be facing an Okkam'd spearmen unit- S8 ASF attacks) and still won't be able to get to teclis.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Teclis can still use the Lore Attribute to heal wounds with life as it's not a spell. But it's the fact he chooses his Lore are deployment which is the real kicker for me, he can get a good idea for what you're going to do and plan accordingly.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Our tournaments have almost entirely dropped the watchtower scenario as written and have altered the break point win condition (blood and glory) but have used some of the alternative deployment zone scenarios from blood and glory, dawn attack, meeting engagement, and battle for the pass with or without some of the special aspects (like not having armies roll for reserves in meeting engagement or eliminating random allocation in dawn attack but, instead, requiring allocations of units between the three zones). The watchtower scenarion concepts is sometimes replaced by a typical battleline deployment with a control of the center of the table/objects in the center or similar type of objective/win condition.

Altering the building rules is sort of the obvious fix to the problems with the RAW currently, which too often encourages people to bunker rediculously large units in buildings (limits number of models hit by templates in the building and provides hard cover to BS shooting). I think buildings are important terrain features in 8th edition as they constitute impassible terrain for units fleeing, marching and charging through them and block line of sight, which is critical given TLOS in 8th edition. Being impassible means that they stop cannon balls from bouncing through the building into models behind the building, something people miss in the cannon rules (obstacles stop bouncing balls and are destroyed by them, buildings get hit by cannon balls but cannot continue to bounce through the buildings and beyond because buildings are impassible).


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

if you play anything with decent warmachines or strong monsters cant you jsut shoot the bejesus out of the folding fortress till it falls down??


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Nope. It wound be nice. The only spell that does that is Skaven's Crack's Call spell which actually destroys the building. Cannons destroy obstacles but not builidings.


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Tecilis is the epitome of 'broken' characters. 
Editions change, and rules with them. Many characters hinge on those rules, so bending them or making new ones redefines the char.

Book of Hoeth is somewhat silly. I can see arguments for it...but not many.
Banner of the world dragon on a unit that ALREADY has a 4+ ward? I've found these HE players complain about chosen....who are supposed to be the height of martial prowess and the best killers in the warhammer world....
I digress.

Tecilis is abusive. and the Banner/ Book is rather abusive.
why combine them?

I suppose I'm lucky. My area/state, GTs ban the Book, folding fortress and most (if not all) special Chars.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

olderplayer said:


> Nope. It wound be nice. The only spell that does that is Skaven's Crack's Call spell which actually destroys the building. Cannons destroy obstacles but not builidings.


ah damn. thats a kick in the teeth


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## Drahazar (Jan 11, 2012)

The only house rules we have is NO SPECIAL CHARACTERS and any dice that lands on terrian must be re rolled. And the no special characters is enforced in tourneys and is up to the players if they allow it in friendly games. and I play skaven so I fear no building. Though they should have had a rule for warmachines and large monsters to destroy buildings. I am pretty sure a Dragon can open up a building or a hell pit Abomb.


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## ExtraCrew (Jan 22, 2012)

Was it sixth edition that had hit points for buildings. That would be and easy fix. 

T10 W10 for a Castle

T5 W3 for a Farm Cottage. Something like this.


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