# Primarch info for 2nd & 11th chapters



## maako

hello everyone i am new to the forum looking for some info on Primarchs of the 2nd & 11th chapters. I found in the book" in to the Maelstrom" in the short story "Hell in a Bottle" the iron Hearts Space marine chapter states for the Emporer , opined Primarch Rubinek. anyone got anything to add or info on this because this is the first info i have found on a Primarch name that does not match the other 18 Primarchs.


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## Sir Whittaker

There is alot of confusion surrounding the missing legions, but what I've worked out is the following (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

That there were 20 Primarchs, and the only one that was raised alone was Konrad Curze, meaning that the missing Primarchs were educated in some fashion, even if it was by animals or xenos (unlikely).

Alpharius was the last Primarch to be found, so the missing Primarchs were discovered before him. 

20 Legions took part in the great crusade, led by their Primarch, so the missing ones were present at that time.

There were 20 Primarch statues at the Imperial Palace at the time of the Heresy.

One of the Primarchs was noted to have possessed the power of "invisibility", whatever that means. None of the known Primarchs have that power.

After this I find it a little bit abiguous and open to interpretation.

Alot of info refers to "fully half" of the space marine legions siding with Horus or failing the test of chaos. This suggests that 10 legions were on each side during the Heresy. However since 2 legions were "expunged" from records this statement may not refer to them, and instead is meant to represent half of the 18 remaining recorded legions.

Another point is that all CSM legions are noted as "excommunicate traitoris", and not "expunged". This raises the question as to why 2 legions are completely removed from Imperial records. The only reason that I can think of is that these legions were completely destroyed, hence why it is safe to remove their records. If they were loyal at the time of their demise, surely they would be venerated by the whole Imperium, making it possible they were both traitors. Another possibility is that the two missing legions were involved in some Imperial conspiracy or monumental cock-up, and that they needed to be covered up somehow. 

As for Rubinek, I would investigate the author, as he may be mixing up the term Primarch with what should be Chapter Master. I hope this is the case, because I really don't want there to be another "Iron" legion, that's just unoriginal.

Hope this helps!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Well said Sir Whittaker, although if I may point out one thing:



Sir Whittaker said:


> One of the Primarchs was noted to have possessed the power of "invisibility", whatever that means. None of the known Primarchs have that power.


The whole invisible Primarch (hinted at in _Codex: Imperialis_ I believe it was?) is now considered to be Corax, since _Raven's Flight_ was released. Its not invisibility per se, but is similar and is widely assumed to be a nod in the direction of the older background.


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## Sir Whittaker

I stand corrected.


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## Justindkates

I thought in False Gods they hint around at one of the Primarch's not making it out of the tank. 

I don't remember the page but Horus saying something about what could have been when he see's himself in the base on Luna looking at the incubation tanks. 

I always liked to believe that the 2nd and 18th never made it and were expunged because of unstable gene seed, or mutation. That both legions never reached the great crusade. 

Of course I have little to nothing to back this up, just what I always thought sounded cool in my head.


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## Akatsuki13

Officially, there are no names for the missing Primarchs and their Legions. GW left those two blank so that we the fans can create their own Primarchs and Legions. Go to the homebrew fluff section. You'll find some Legions and Primarchs created by other fans.

Officially, the Primarchs and their Legions were lost in two separate, terrible tragedies and by the end of the HH, their records were completely wiped. The only people alive who know exactly what happened to them would be the Emperor and the other Primarchs. There might be others among the oldest of CSM that were around at that time, but it's hard to say.


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## WarWolf88

@Akatsuki13: I think we can add Fell-Handed and maybe a few other original Venerable Dreadnought inhabitants to that list.

I do remember someone somewhere mentioning something about the Blood Ravens having fought alongside some unknown Primarch at some point. But since I have no idea who said it and when or where he got that information, you have just my word for it. And since my memory is like swiss cheese, that's really not much....

The others pretty much summed it up for the most part. And Lexicanum agrees with Sir Whittaker about Rubinek:



Lexicanum said:


> The short-story Hell in a Bottle by Simon Jowet mentions a Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts chapter. Primarch Rubineck is not mentioned anywhere else. Some authors seem to occasionally confuse the Chapter Masters with the Primarchs and Rubinek was most likely such a case.


Two unknown legions-link.

Hmmm. I could swear I have heard that Rubinek name somewhere before, but where...?


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## maako

The book i found this info in was publisshed by black Libraries back in 2000.


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## Cruor99

WarWolf: The Blood Ravens' "unknown" primarch is likely to be Magnus the Red. He is unknown because they themselves do not know their own primarch. Everything about the past is supposedly "lost," which is remarkable for a chapter that prizes knowledge and history.


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## Barnster

Some blood ravens know but they ordered the records destroyed, the blood ravens have no idea about their primarch. the closest the BRs ever had to a primarch was Aarijah Vidja, the great father, who rebuilt the chapter after it was nearly destroyed. The BRs slight tendency towards psykers and genetic mutation, plus all the other links eg ahriman telling them(!) suggests the Crimson King as their primarch. 

I don't think that we'll know any more than than that they existed about the other 2 legions unless they were given rather inglorious endings for them anominity may be the best


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## space cowboy

Also something to keep in mind is that when Rogal Dorn is looking at the statues of the primarchs in the story The Lightning Tower, he mentions something about how the statues for the missing two have been removed and how tragic it was. This leads me to believe that neither one went traitor during the Heresy and that both of their individual tragedies were something else entirely.


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## WarWolf88

@Cruor99: Yes, I know the theory quite well, and I actually thought of it myself when I first read the BR background from a WD, long before I heard it was already a known and long running theory.

But, that's not what I meant. I remember reading from another forum where someone said something about a story or short story about the BR fighting alongside a Primarch that nobody knew. Was it the Big Red, I don't know, and I can't remeber what forum it was or who said it. I do remeber it was years ago....

But, back to the main subject, I somehow got the idea somewhere along the line that the statues were removed BEFORE the Heresy. And I did find this in Lexi:



> 20 statues of the Primarchs were erected in the Imperial Palace on Terra. By the time of the Horus Heresy, plinths II and XI "...had been vacant for a long time


The given source is Horus Heresy Chapbook (Anthology)....


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## ckcrawford

probably old fluff. In The Lightning Tower the two primarchs are still with the rest of the primarchs however covered in drapes.


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## The Archangel

The idea of the missing primarchs raised by xenos is interesting. Perhaps they would not join the emperor in his crusade to wip out all the alien species and so he was forced to kill him for he was an early heretic? It's quite possible, because this is a different type of Heresy than the type Horus displayed. 
If this is the case, I think it would be more fitting to have them expunged rather than hated, because the Imperium are already xenophobic and hate aliens so it does no help to know that one of their most influential beings gave "birth" to a xenos loving heretic, whereas by keeping the image of horus as a terrible thing, it leaves the people hating the ruinous powers when they are easier to fall prey to, for they are more personality and morale lapses rather than loyalty (for example, greed is a reason to turn to Chaos, bloodlust, hate or love or being open minded and/or free willed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Archangel said:


> The idea of the missing primarchs raised by xenos is interesting. Perhaps they would not join the emperor in his crusade to wip out all the alien species and so he was forced to kill him for he was an early heretic? It's quite possible, because this is a different type of Heresy than the type Horus displayed.
> If this is the case, I think it would be more fitting to have them expunged rather than hated, because the Imperium are already xenophobic and hate aliens so it does no help to know that one of their most influential beings gave "birth" to a xenos loving heretic, whereas by keeping the image of horus as a terrible thing, it leaves the people hating the ruinous powers when they are easier to fall prey to, for they are more personality and morale lapses rather than loyalty (for example, greed is a reason to turn to Chaos, bloodlust, hate or love or being open minded and/or free willed.


While that would be plausable, it doesn't account for the fact that the records show both Lost Legions with their Primarchs took part in the Great Crusade. It also doesn't account for the fates of the II and XI Legions either.

Personally, I hold that the most rational theory would be that the Lost Primarchs (and Legions) suffered some sort of major genetical failings or geneseed corruption, which manifested irreversibly at some point during the Crusade. This ties in with Malcador mentioning 'seperate tragedies' and also fits with their records being completely expunged and the remaining Primarchs being forbidden from merely talking about them.


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## Phoebus

Exactly. The records were expunged because their "separate tragedies" were not of a scale equal to the Horus Heresy--which could not be suppressed (at least not for at least several centuries, and then only via the propaganda efforts and deliberate misinformation policies of the Imperium).

Had that been the case, they would have been labelled Excommunicate Traitoris or some such.


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## Tuck3r

THe theory that i came up with is simply because of one of the named elite choices from the newest nilla marines codex along with the creationstory of slaanesh

the choice is called the Leigon of the damned.. ///Leigon\\\ not chapter Leigon. the creation story of slaanesh is that the collective psyche of the eldar created him. my thoughts are is that one of the missing primarchs and his leigon was lost in an early warp storm and the records we're expunged because at that time no one really knew what happened cause the warp wasn't prevelant yet. but because of the propaganda and stuff everyone knows of the primarchs and the space marines. how does the average imperial citizen think of most space marines... most ( who have no interaction with one) think of them the way the Leigon of the Damned are seen. Miraculous unstoppable saviors who coalece from nowhere and dissapear after everything has been made safe....

just my two cents:lazy2:


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## ThatOtherGuy

A possible theory could be that one legion all together went into exile... but thats a theory.


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## Serpion5

ThatOtherGuy said:


> A possible theory could be that one legion all together went into exile... but thats a theory.


Possible yes, but what reason could there be?


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## ThatOtherGuy

Serpion5 said:


> Possible yes, but what reason could there be?


Possible theories:
1) were absent at the battle of terra, shame of not helping the Emperor, thus imposed their own exile
2) one of the primarchs rebelled against the Emperor, but did not join the forces of chaos, thus leaving either to start something of their own.
3) possibly committed a great sin, thus they are seeking for forgiveness in secrecy
4) left the milky way all together for some reason


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## ClassyRaptor

Warp Space Travel Fail?


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## ThatOtherGuy

Vali ThunderAxe said:


> Warp Space Travel Fail?


Thats kinda open ended though. Either they could of all been slaughtered by demons or became a chaos legion thats stranded in the warp.


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## nivik

ok so my thoughts on it are thus:

it says at one point that a full half turned chaos, so one of the missing must be chaos, cause theres 9 know chaos. for this one i believe ti to be 11. in one of the horus books he gets mad at the 11th chamber and also stats how much glory he could get. i think that this primarch was chaos and that horus saw him as a threat to his control and killed him and his legion.

for the other missing primarch (2) i have several theriys, my first is that he faltered when given a chance to slay a chaos primarch. because of his failure, the emperor had him destroyed. my second, and personal favorite, is that number 2 was a failed project, for some reason, something went wrong in the cloning, and he was created without psykic powers, and later was exiled later.

although i like these, it appears that they both died or were removed before horus heresy. this is because the 2 statues on terra were removed BEFORE the heresy, in The Lighting Tower, someone said that they were warnings, so mostlikley they fell to chaos before horus, and were found and destroyed.


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## grimdarkness

nivik said:


> ok so my thoughts on it are thus:
> 
> it says at one point that a full half turned chaos, so one of the missing must be chaos, cause theres 9 know chaos. for this one i believe ti to be 11. in one of the horus books he gets mad at the 11th chamber and also stats how much glory he could get. i think that this primarch was chaos and that horus saw him as a threat to his control and killed him and his legion.
> 
> for the other missing primarch (2) i have several theriys, my first is that he faltered when given a chance to slay a chaos primarch. because of his failure, the emperor had him destroyed. my second, and personal favorite, is that number 2 was a failed project, for some reason, something went wrong in the cloning, and he was created without psykic powers, and later was exiled later.
> 
> although i like these, it appears that they both died or were removed before horus heresy. this is because the 2 statues on terra were removed BEFORE the heresy, in The Lighting Tower, someone said that they were warnings, so mostlikley they fell to chaos before horus, and were found and destroyed.


although it is stated that fully half of the legions turned, i beleive its open to interpretation. It may not include the missing legions, as they were exponged. of course that doesnt mean it doesnt.

secondly, as you've already said, it seems that whatever happened to the legions happened before the Heresy. I personally think it must have happened before the triumph at Ullanor based on comments by Magnus to Mortarion. Actually does anyone know of any references to the missing legions prior to this?


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## TheSpore

well the legion of the damned are to be the the SM chapter fire hawks that were lost in the warp and were infected with a disease that is slowly killing them. The legion now appears out of nowhere to aid the imperium when ever possable. read the lexicanum entry


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## Fire Lord

It is known the two legions had seperate tragedies. Something must have been shameful in those tragedies for the imperium to shroud, and then remove the statues. It is known that these legions are left open for fun and expansion. However, the known fluff is rather limiting, as they suffered tragedies. It almost limits the legions to penance crusades or exile, which would/could make them rogue/traitor.


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## warmaster isaan

Cruor99 said:


> WarWolf: The Blood Ravens' "unknown" primarch is likely to be Magnus the Red. He is unknown because they themselves do not know their own primarch. Everything about the past is supposedly "lost," which is remarkable for a chapter that prizes knowledge and history.


the main reason they horde knowledge is because of the great tragedy of losing the info on their past before the coming of Vidya or whatever his name was



ThatOtherGuy said:


> Possible theories:
> 1) were absent at the battle of Terra, shame of not helping the Emperor, thus imposed their own exile
> 2) one of the primarchs rebelled against the Emperor, but did not join the forces of chaos, thus leaving either to start something of their own.


basically what the soul drinkers did. they turned their back on the Imperium believing it a lie, but also still murdering chaos at every turn trying to seek redemption in the emperors eyes.

about the XI legion it is said in the false gods book of the Horus heresy that Horus got so angry he smashed the fronting of number XI's tank. so maybe the influence of chaos seeped through that crack while in the warp and corrupted him so he eventually had to be executed and removed from all records because the emperor didn't want anyone to know of his horrible fate.
just my thoughts anyway!


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## Larmour

well the blood ravens definitely dont have a primarch because they are a second founding chapter also the last two primarch's are dead killed by horus when he goes back in time because they side with the emperor stated in mechanicum after the imperium sent out 15 legions when only 5 were traitor's at the time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Larmour said:


> well the blood ravens definitely dont have a primarch because they are a second founding chapter


Second founding chapters still have Primarchs, as do all chapters regardless of founding. They are ultimately still drawn from the same geneseed.



Larmour said:


> also the last two primarch's are dead killed by horus when he goes back in time because they side with the emperor stated in mechanicum after the imperium sent out 15 legions when only 5 were traitor's at the time.


No, no, no.


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## MuSigma

*Missing Primarchs*

Blimey is this still going on. One of the 2 great mysteries of wh40k, that and BR's Primarch.

I think the original ideas were for the tabletop gaming platform and were never meant for the in depth analysis of the spinoff world of the novels. 
So there is no way to "guess" the right reason because there isnt one. 

As it is a work of fiction it all depends on the Novel writing side of games workshop whether or not they will commission an author to fill us in on this mystery or any other, in which case they will probably have to make it up from scratch. 

Also when they first invented the 20 primarchs, they must have had a reason to make 2 of them missing - I know what they say "for fans of the table top game to make stuff up", but what prompted them to come up with that idea. It must have made some sense at the time.

Although the Horus Heresy series on the background of the 40k universe, set in the 30th Millenium is a perfect opportunity to fill in the gaps as it were, as that is the purpose of the series to provide a deep background of the previous era.

Finally; why not tie the 2 big mysteries together - make the Blood Ravens Primarch one of the missing ones, would be really interesting. They could also make it one the real reasons for the second founding, to incorporate lots of Marines who were loyalists but from traitor legions to be put together into newly founded chapters for a new beginning with a clean slate.

Final finally, what if they turn up as the founders of the Tau civilisation, or something similar, founded their own mini empires or like Caliban under Luther - went rogue/independant.


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## Darkoan

I know there a few threads on this one - but I like the idea of at least one of the lost sons siding with aliens of some sort, perhaps rebelling against the Big E's stance on xenphobia, leading to the Emperor wiping him/them out of existence.

It is unlikely to be related to the Tau - when the Adeptus Machanicus found the Tau WELL AFTER the HH in M35 they were still using spears and fire.

After reading The First Heretic I feel more and more that it was a simple case of the 2 Primarchs doing both something the E didnt like... (eg alien-philia, chaos-taint)

For those of you who say 'it cant have been that bad, Horus did the worst thing imaginable and his records werent wiped', thats ridiculous. There are any number of reasons toi explain this. It may have been a whole lot easier to do. Sort of like the analogy of wiping the records of Hitler v the wiping of an general in the Boer War. You just couldnt do the former. Secondly, the E may have wanted to hide some influence and/or knowledge of the warp that II&XI had from the rest of the Primarchs. that may have been a little difficult to say the least post-HH.

On the Blood Ravens - my money is on their founding Primarch being Magnus. It explains their psyker concentration and also the apparent shame that was felt when 'key discoveries' were found and destroyed immediately.


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## Abisbowa

GW will probably never reveal who the lost legions/primarchs are. I seem to remember having read somewhere that the whole reason they left two off was so that someone could come up with their own SM legion or CSM legion.


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## Krymson86

Well, one possible explanation is that since Alpharius has a twin Omegon, is it possible that the two were not supposed to be twins? As a result one of the Legions that was supposed to be formed was scrapped because the two were twins? 

Another interesting thing is this excerpt "When Dante asks the Blood Angels' successor chapters for men to bring the Blood Angels back to full strength, having suffered heavy casualties during Arkio´s heresy, Seth, chapter master of the Flesh Tearers, makes a counter to this demand: disband the Blood Angels and spread them amongst the successors. When Orloc (chapter master of the Blood Drinkers) protests that there is no way a First Founding Chapter can end like this, Seth retorts that, actually, it has happened before." 

It's possible that one of the Missing Chapters were so devastated that the remainder of their chapter were split into the other Chapters. It is interesting that at one point the Ultramarines got a large influx of troops and during the time of the Heresy were the largest Chapter in terms of the number of Marines they had. 

It'd be cool to finally get a book about the Missing Chapters, but I doubt it'll ever gt fully explained by GW/Black Library.


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## Godric

hey all

i was talking with a friend of mine who had been given the go ahead to write on the 2nd and 11th legions, not allowed to say who. lol i know dont get upset . but i am allowed to tell u some of it.
its based in the 41st millennium, its based on the remnents of the 2nd legion, who are fighting in the segmentum obscurus. they fight in an epic battle against the iron warriors with several other space marine chapters. Also the author takes you into the past of the two legions and what happened.
the way he is portraying it is that before the two were found by the emperor both had control of an interstellar empire. they were at war with each other for many years before the primarchs took command. both eventually meet on the world tantran, a city world and a five year war ensues to take it. even as the primarchs fight hand to hand combat, recognizing each other, they still fought. there was no love between them for the years of war had made them bitter and full of anger.
the Emperor finally arrives with the dark angels, and they beam down to the planet and break up the fight just as the 2nd legion primarch was about to kill the 11th. yadayadayada. anyways during the crusade the 2nd primarch puts the past behind him and asks his brother to join him in a crusade against the orks to reforge there bond. thinking it works, at the 110th yr of the crusade the 2nd legion return to tantras upon recieving a message from the Emperor.
the message was a fake, a ruse by the 11th legion who had not disbanded their Empire and kept many of their ships hidden while rebuilding. the 11th legion attack the 2nd legion, the ruinous powers stall the dark angels primarch from getting help, for twenty seven months the war raged before fifteen legions in their entirety including the Emperor entered the system. destroying the beseiging fleet that rivaled that of the Emperors. the 11th primarch fights the 2nd primarch for a 2nd time.
the 2nd primarch was saved by a captain of his own legion, throwing his guardian spear at the back of the traitour primarch.( the only legion ever allowed to use similiar weapons of the custodians was the 2nd legion)
the 11th primarch is slain by the 2nd primarch who is mortally wounded and is taken back to the Emperors barge for treatment. the remaining 11th legion flee, after the wrath of 15th full space marine legions descend upon them, and there foot soldiers and driod armies. 
then it goes back to their war with the Iron warriors who have massed together 3 grand companies under the command of Ferrous Ironclaw 2nd grand company warsmith. they fight the famous bloodthirster we all love from forge world Angarath the unbound!!. slaying him at a terrible cost.
anyways he hasnt finished figuring out the stuff yet. unfortunatlty i am not allowed to same the name of the two legions and there primarchs cause it would be a major spoile.
the 11th primarch was corrupted by the ruinous powers, the very first one to fall, because his empire was dark and corrupt.
thats why the warrior priest empire who came to be under the control of the 2nd primarch, made war on them centuries before.
lol have fun digesting this


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## Djinn24

^^^

Trying to read that just made my head hurts. Punctuation and using capitols can be difficult at times but for fucks sake.

The legions are based on the Roman legions. The 2nd and 19th legion where wiped out to the man. In human history that is what happened. I dunno (nor does anyone) how it is in the 40k multiverse.


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## Chompy Bits

Godric said:


> hey all
> 
> i was talking with a friend of mine who had been given the go ahead to write on the 2nd and 11th legions, not allowed to say who. lol i know dont get upset . but i am allowed to tell u some of it.
> its based in the 41st millennium, its based on the remnents of the 2nd legion, who are fighting in the segmentum obscurus. they fight in an epic battle against the iron warriors with several other space marine chapters. Also the author takes you into the past of the two legions and what happened.
> the way he is portraying it is that before the two were found by the emperor both had control of an interstellar empire. they were at war with each other for many years before the primarchs took command. both eventually meet on the world tantran, a city world and a five year war ensues to take it. even as the primarchs fight hand to hand combat, recognizing each other, they still fought. there was no love between them for the years of war had made them bitter and full of anger.
> the Emperor finally arrives with the dark angels, and they beam down to the planet and break up the fight just as the 2nd legion primarch was about to kill the 11th. yadayadayada. anyways during the crusade the 2nd primarch puts the past behind him and asks his brother to join him in a crusade against the orks to reforge there bond. thinking it works, at the 110th yr of the crusade the 2nd legion return to tantras upon recieving a message from the Emperor.
> the message was a fake, a ruse by the 11th legion who had not disbanded their Empire and kept many of their ships hidden while rebuilding. the 11th legion attack the 2nd legion, the ruinous powers stall the dark angels primarch from getting help, for twenty seven months the war raged before fifteen legions in their entirety including the Emperor entered the system. destroying the beseiging fleet that rivaled that of the Emperors. the 11th primarch fights the 2nd primarch for a 2nd time.
> the 2nd primarch was saved by a captain of his own legion, throwing his guardian spear at the back of the traitour primarch.( the only legion ever allowed to use similiar weapons of the custodians was the 2nd legion)
> the 11th primarch is slain by the 2nd primarch who is mortally wounded and is taken back to the Emperors barge for treatment. the remaining 11th legion flee, after the wrath of 15th full space marine legions descend upon them, and there foot soldiers and driod armies.
> then it goes back to their war with the Iron warriors who have massed together 3 grand companies under the command of Ferrous Ironclaw 2nd grand company warsmith. they fight the famous bloodthirster we all love from forge world Angarath the unbound!!. slaying him at a terrible cost.
> anyways he hasnt finished figuring out the stuff yet. unfortunatlty i am not allowed to same the name of the two legions and there primarchs cause it would be a major spoile.
> the 11th primarch was corrupted by the ruinous powers, the very first one to fall, because his empire was dark and corrupt.
> thats why the warrior priest empire who came to be under the control of the 2nd primarch, made war on them centuries before.
> lol have fun digesting this


Ummm... no offence dude but, if you're serious in this post, your idea of a spoiler is ass backwards. I'd rather just know the names of the primarchs and legions instead of the whole plot for the story.


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## Malus Darkblade

Godric said:


> hey all
> 
> i was talking with a friend of mine who had been given the go ahead to write on the 2nd and 11th legions, not allowed to say who. lol i know dont get upset . but i am allowed to tell u some of it.
> its based in the 41st millennium, its based on the remnents of the 2nd legion, who are fighting in the segmentum obscurus. they fight in an epic battle against the iron warriors with several other space marine chapters. Also the author takes you into the past of the two legions and what happened.
> the way he is portraying it is that before the two were found by the emperor both had control of an interstellar empire. they were at war with each other for many years before the primarchs took command. both eventually meet on the world tantran, a city world and a five year war ensues to take it. even as the primarchs fight hand to hand combat, recognizing each other, they still fought. there was no love between them for the years of war had made them bitter and full of anger.
> the Emperor finally arrives with the dark angels, and they beam down to the planet and break up the fight just as the 2nd legion primarch was about to kill the 11th. yadayadayada. anyways during the crusade the 2nd primarch puts the past behind him and asks his brother to join him in a crusade against the orks to reforge there bond. thinking it works, at the 110th yr of the crusade the 2nd legion return to tantras upon recieving a message from the Emperor.
> the message was a fake, a ruse by the 11th legion who had not disbanded their Empire and kept many of their ships hidden while rebuilding. the 11th legion attack the 2nd legion, the ruinous powers stall the dark angels primarch from getting help, for twenty seven months the war raged before fifteen legions in their entirety including the Emperor entered the system. destroying the beseiging fleet that rivaled that of the Emperors. the 11th primarch fights the 2nd primarch for a 2nd time.
> the 2nd primarch was saved by a captain of his own legion, throwing his guardian spear at the back of the traitour primarch.( the only legion ever allowed to use similiar weapons of the custodians was the 2nd legion)
> the 11th primarch is slain by the 2nd primarch who is mortally wounded and is taken back to the Emperors barge for treatment. the remaining 11th legion flee, after the wrath of 15th full space marine legions descend upon them, and there foot soldiers and driod armies.
> then it goes back to their war with the Iron warriors who have massed together 3 grand companies under the command of Ferrous Ironclaw 2nd grand company warsmith. they fight the famous bloodthirster we all love from forge world Angarath the unbound!!. slaying him at a terrible cost.
> anyways he hasnt finished figuring out the stuff yet. unfortunatlty i am not allowed to same the name of the two legions and there primarchs cause it would be a major spoile.
> the 11th primarch was corrupted by the ruinous powers, the very first one to fall, because his empire was dark and corrupt.
> thats why the warrior priest empire who came to be under the control of the 2nd primarch, made war on them centuries before.
> lol have fun digesting this


When do the Unicorns of Khorne come into play?


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## Baron Spikey

Quick someone get Godric to a hospital, or at least a glass of water, he's suffering from severe dehydration- his post is delusional gibberish. :russianroulette:


----------



## Chompy Bits

Baron Spikey said:


> Quick someone get Godric to a hospital, or at least a glass of water, he's suffering from severe dehydration- his post is delusional gibberish. :russianroulette:


Maybe he's Lux in disguise.


----------



## TheSpore

One has to remember that although we know the backdrop and main plot of the HH that the story is only just now being told. GW/BL i don't think anticipated the series to actually be such a big seller in the first place. But anyway the series is still too young and they are still fleshing out the details that go with the HH rather than what all the codecies say which is where much of our original understanding of the HH came from. Back when 40k came out GW left the two legions out just for us to have freedom to create our own(which if i recall was a long time ago when i wasn't even old enuff to walk.) It is very possible now that the story is being fleshed out that the missing primarchs may get the their story told, but then again its GW need I say more. We are just now being told Lorgar's story along with many others so it is possible esspecially since now we are being clued into the real GK origins. A story that even the codex doesn't tell the true story and states its all just rumours.

As for the BR. The chapter was created exclusively for the DOW games and really didn't even have a back story at all. Sure it was fleshed out when the books were written and I'm sure we will sooner or later get the story to the BR hell might even happen in the HH series for all we know. But just bear in mind that when DOW was made THQ decided to use there own created chapter rather than use an older one so to help make the story fresh and not regurgitated.

Here is couple of good questions to ask about the missing primarchs though
What if the origins of the GK actually points to them in some way?
Is it possible that one of them grew up in the warp?
Maybe the Big E at some point was killed and now one of the missing is actually acting as the Big E which is why so much is actually hidden and expunged form records. 
(don't bash me for this since i don't actually no much about them nor read any fluff on them)What if one of the missing is the origin of the custodes.
Finally what if one them was female and not male...


----------



## TheSpore

K scratch what i said about the custodes


----------



## Phoebus

Baron Spikey said:


> Quick someone get Godric to a hospital, or at least a glass of water, he's suffering from severe dehydration- his post is delusional gibberish. :russianroulette:


I like to think that, right now, there is a "Horus Heresy" writers' meeting and (throwing random names out there) Ben Counter is hurling a coffee mug at James Swallow.

"Really?!? A fucking 'friend'?!? You gave away the plot to the biggest fucking story we had to your 'friend'?!? Dammit, Jimmy! OK, people. New ideas for the 'Missing Primarchs' novel, please!"


----------



## Angel of Blood

Godric said:


> hey all
> 
> i was talking with a friend of mine who had been given the go ahead to write on the 2nd and 11th legions, not allowed to say who. lol i know dont get upset . but i am allowed to tell u some of it.
> its based in the 41st millennium, its based on the remnents of the 2nd legion, who are fighting in the segmentum obscurus. they fight in an epic battle against the iron warriors with several other space marine chapters. Also the author takes you into the past of the two legions and what happened.
> the way he is portraying it is that before the two were found by the emperor both had control of an interstellar empire. they were at war with each other for many years before the primarchs took command. both eventually meet on the world tantran, a city world and a five year war ensues to take it. even as the primarchs fight hand to hand combat, recognizing each other, they still fought. there was no love between them for the years of war had made them bitter and full of anger.
> the Emperor finally arrives with the dark angels, and they beam down to the planet and break up the fight just as the 2nd legion primarch was about to kill the 11th. yadayadayada. anyways during the crusade the 2nd primarch puts the past behind him and asks his brother to join him in a crusade against the orks to reforge there bond. thinking it works, at the 110th yr of the crusade the 2nd legion return to tantras upon recieving a message from the Emperor.
> the message was a fake, a ruse by the 11th legion who had not disbanded their Empire and kept many of their ships hidden while rebuilding. the 11th legion attack the 2nd legion, the ruinous powers stall the dark angels primarch from getting help, for twenty seven months the war raged before fifteen legions in their entirety including the Emperor entered the system. destroying the beseiging fleet that rivaled that of the Emperors. the 11th primarch fights the 2nd primarch for a 2nd time.
> the 2nd primarch was saved by a captain of his own legion, throwing his guardian spear at the back of the traitour primarch.( the only legion ever allowed to use similiar weapons of the custodians was the 2nd legion)
> the 11th primarch is slain by the 2nd primarch who is mortally wounded and is taken back to the Emperors barge for treatment. the remaining 11th legion flee, after the wrath of 15th full space marine legions descend upon them, and there foot soldiers and driod armies.
> then it goes back to their war with the Iron warriors who have massed together 3 grand companies under the command of Ferrous Ironclaw 2nd grand company warsmith. they fight the famous bloodthirster we all love from forge world Angarath the unbound!!. slaying him at a terrible cost.
> anyways he hasnt finished figuring out the stuff yet. unfortunatlty i am not allowed to same the name of the two legions and there primarchs cause it would be a major spoile.
> the 11th primarch was corrupted by the ruinous powers, the very first one to fall, because his empire was dark and corrupt.
> thats why the warrior priest empire who came to be under the control of the 2nd primarch, made war on them centuries before.
> lol have fun digesting this


Uh-huh.......This before or after the Emperors secret army of inivisible pink unicorns were lost?


----------



## gothik

Angel of Blood said:


> Uh-huh.......This before or after the Emperors secret army of inivisible pink unicorns were lost?


LMAO i was thinking pink elephants, too much sauce and maybe a trip to amsterdamn was in order.....

all i know is that the primarchs are forbidden to discuss it, somethng that has become more and more apparent in the last two novels _First Heretic _and _Thousand Sons_
either way i doubt anything concrete will ever be done about it, like was stated, it is GW's way of saying here you go fan dom have fun, enjoy but don't expect us to ever tell it how it is.
they just throw the titbits in....thought they were sadistic over there.


----------



## Ultra111

I like how he started with "it's based in the 41st millenium" and then started talking about the Emperor being on his feet along with all the other Primarchs.


----------



## TheSpore

ok i just actually read this insanely weird story. If this was a real book to be released. Why in hell would GW even release such utter garbage that contradicts everything in the fluff. would the legion names possibly be 2nd Legion, Legion of the Pink Unicoorns, 11th legion Pink Elephants of Retribution wich spawned such chapters as the rainbow marines and the butt buddies which are sworn allies... Lest we forget the Hello Kitty chapter!!! ( the imperium does't claim these chapters exsist you know and were excommunicated due to the strict don't ask don't tell policy of the imperium)


On a serious note though GW ought consider fleshing out the two missing legions could actually add something new and fresh to the fluff and game.


----------



## Chompy Bits

TheSpore said:


> Hello Kitty chapter


You know, that might actually be a pretty funny idea for a themed army.


----------



## Snake40000

Well after reading Godric post.... i think i will attempt to put an end to this.

Most of the information i have been able to gather from novels, have lead me to believe that the Patriarchs of the 2nd and 11th legions were exspunged, then the remainders of there troops were absorbed by the ultramarines. This is info is based on the HH series; primarily from "The First Heretic". 

Now what this tells me is that the gene seed of the legions were sound; so that would not be an issue, see Thousand Sons for why it might be an issue, so it had to be something about the Patriarchs. In the HH series a number of comments are made about these Patriarchs; the comments primarily revolve around things to never be spoken about. 

This is purely conjector on my part, but it apears that the Emperor and MOST of his sons gathered and decided apon the Patriarchs in questions fate. 

OR 

That the Emperor and ALL of his sons gathered and descused what happened to them. AKA the Emperor decided there fate.


See the issue is that there is no time line. You cannot know when in the Great Crusade they were found for sure. Since the influx or Ultramarines could have happened at anytime after there conseption. So for all we know one or both of them may have been found before Horus. One thing to remember is that before ANY Patriarchs were found ALL Space Marines were terrans.

And that is the extent of hard fact I have been able to gather.

-Legions gene seeds were sound.
-Ultramarines Took in the ramainders.
-The Patriarchs were unacceptible in some way.

Yes im sure there are spelling mistakes -_-


----------



## Angel of Blood

I don't buy into the "Ultramarines absorbed them" theory. For me that was just those Word Bearers talking about a rumour or something. Also remember that both Legions were expunged for seperate reasons and likely didn't happen at the same time. Either way i don't think we're going to find out, we will just get more and more little hints and rumours as the HH series goes on.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Angel of Blood said:


> Either way i don't think we're going to find out, we will just get more and more little hints and rumours as the HH series goes on.


So basically we're getting nowhere slowly. Whoopie


----------



## ownzu

in a way i like the idea of em being at war with each other like godric said but maybe just make it a bit more like them having a rivalry(like most primarchs do) that got out of hand


----------



## Diatribe1974

Larmour said:


> well the blood ravens definitely dont have a primarch because they are a second founding chapter also the last two primarch's are dead killed by horus when he goes back in time because they side with the emperor stated in mechanicum after the imperium sent out 15 legions when only 5 were traitor's at the time.


The Blood Ravens are an "unofficial" example of a Chapter that was born from a traitor Legion: The Thousand Sons! Their Primarch is Magnus the Red, but it'll never be officially known, but it's the "Dirty Little Secret" many of us know (who took the time to read Goto's work about it).


----------



## MontytheMighty

Chompy Bits said:


> You know, that might actually be a pretty funny idea for a themed army.


I think the Butt Buddies chapter takes the cake


----------



## rayrod64

Maybe the one of primarchs was the progenitor of the Legion of the Damned.

Reason they were excomunicated was too much forbidden knoledge of the warp..or Eldar webway....

hense they always arrive like ghosts


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

Welcome, Rayrod! That's a nice idea, and one that a lot of people have. Thing is, the Legion of the Damned is actually the remnants of the Fore Hawks Chapter, who were lost in the Warp. This happened in M41, so there is no chance that the LotD are older than this.
I think a lot of the confusion comes from the use of the name Legion, for a M41-era force rather than a Great Crusade/Heresy-era Astartes force.

GFP


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Diatribe1974 said:


> The Blood Ravens are an "unofficial" example of a Chapter that was born from a traitor Legion: The Thousand Sons! Their Primarch is Magnus the Red, but it'll never be officially known, but it's the "Dirty Little Secret" many of us know (who took the time to read Goto's work about it).


So this is official now?

Anyway one of the legions at least was "destroyed" by the Space Wolves under orders from the Emperor.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Age of Darkness confirms the BR are an offshoot of the Thousand Sons.


----------



## Broken

Any book written written by that muppet C S Goto cannot seriously be considered canon.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> Age of Darkness confirms the BR are an offshoot of the Thousand Sons.


It does ?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> It does ?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I must be missing something then, unless you're kidding.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

_"Kalliston had been a fool. Coming back to Prospero had been a predictable error, one caused by excessive faith in the primarch. Arvida had never shared that faith, not even when the Legion had been intact. Whatever cataclysm had occurred here had been beyond Magnus’s power to prevent, so it was folly to retain faith in his stratagems. Any survivors from the sack of Prospero were alone now, a scattered band of warriors cast adrift on the rip-tide of the galaxy like the spars of a ruined galleon

Arvida had no idea how many of his brothers still lived. Perhaps there were hundreds. Perhaps he was the only one.

He would survive. He would discover the true causes of his Legion’s destruction, and live to fight them. 

‘Knowledge is power,’ he breathed.

Then he turned away from the scene, and stole quickly back into the occlusion of the ruins. As he went, the dim red light of the angry magma fires caught on his shoulder-guard, exposing the serpentine star set about the black raven-head of his cult discipline._"


Rebirth by Chris Wraight.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> _"Kalliston had been a fool. Coming back to Prospero had been a predictable error, one caused by excessive faith in the primarch. Arvida had never shared that faith, not even when the Legion had been intact. Whatever cataclysm had occurred here had been beyond Magnus’s power to prevent, so it was folly to retain faith in his stratagems. Any survivors from the sack of Prospero were alone now, a scattered band of warriors cast adrift on the rip-tide of the galaxy like the spars of a ruined galleon
> 
> Arvida had no idea how many of his brothers still lived. Perhaps there were hundreds. Perhaps he was the only one.
> 
> He would survive. He would discover the true causes of his Legion’s destruction, and live to fight them.
> 
> ‘Knowledge is power,’ he breathed.
> 
> Then he turned away from the scene, and stole quickly back into the occlusion of the ruins. As he went, the dim red light of the angry magma fires caught on his shoulder-guard, exposing the serpentine star set about the black raven-head of his cult discipline._"
> 
> 
> Rebirth by Chris Wraight.


Oh ok, guess I never realised it at the time. Wonder if it's ever going to be furthered as there's a distinct problem between that time and the later creation.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

What do you mean?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> What do you mean?


Well the "journey" between him being on the planet and the creation of the chapter including the fact he's a member of a traitor legion and he's not a marine like Garro that's shown undivided devotion to the Emperor.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

No one knows of the Blood Ravens heritage, not even themselves.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> No one knows of the Blood Ravens heritage, not even themselves.


I know, that's why I was wondering whether something will be written to explain the connection between that marine and the Blood Ravens, otherwise it just feels a little weak.


----------



## Vegas

Words_of_Truth said:


> So this is official now?
> 
> Anyway one of the legions at least was "destroyed" by the Space Wolves under orders from the Emperor.


Thus explaining the legions low numbers when they attacked the Tsons...


----------



## Maidel

Just to clear up a few things.

1) it's been stated that all primarches joined their legions and fought in the crusade. This precludes them being killed or removed before the emperor finding them. It also precludes one of them being omegon because he was with the alpha legion, and thus not with another legion.

2) one of them did not accidentally end up female! The emperor genetically created 20 super beings with individual powers and abilities, he didn't then cock up and give one of them two x chromosomes by accident.

3) the legion of the damned, despite years of hints that they might well be the remnants of one of the legions, have been all but officially confirmed as the remnants of the fire hawks chapter.

4) primarch rubinek was a screw up by a writer who was trying to describe the chapters first master because anything else in that context simply didn't make sense.


----------



## Good Minton

Sorry if this has been said elsewhere but, is it not possible that the 2nd and 11th just lost?

I mean the Emperors sons, gods of war no less, losing campaigns to xenos etc and having their legions wiped out. 

Considering what the imperium has got up to previously in terms of denial, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch..........


----------



## Phoebus

Read "The Lightning Tower", by Dan Abnett:

_"No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"_

That musing, by Rogal Dorn, comes with the context of considering why Horus would do what he is doing (waging war against the Imperium). Ergo, the fates of the 2nd and 11the Primarchs likely have something to do with turning against the Emperor.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Black Steel Feathers

Surely the reasons can be anything you want them to be; in my homebrew fluff, Lugh Dawnshard's Crimson Phoenixs co-operated and even protected xenos, whereas Morganith's Black Hawks not only were a load of thieving liars but frequently wiped out civilians by accident.


----------



## Good Minton

Phoebus said:


> Read "The Lightning Tower", by Dan Abnett:
> 
> _"No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"_
> 
> That musing, by Rogal Dorn, comes with the context of considering why Horus would do what he is doing (waging war against the Imperium). Ergo, the fates of the 2nd and 11the Primarchs likely have something to do with turning against the Emperor.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I see what you're saying, but could an/the aberration/s simply be imperfection? 

The warning may well have been that the primarchs were not, in fact, infallible? 

Imperfection of a primarch, martial or otherwise, would be an aberration to the Emperor because he designed them; and if he designed them imperfectly..................


----------



## Phoebus

*Black Steel Feathers,*

Anything? I'd argue not.

Rogal Dorn is trying to figure out why Horus has turned against the Imperium.

He then muses that, given the situation they're in, perhaps his lost brothers should have served as warnings.

Ergo...

*Good Minton,*

Their _separate tragedies_ were considered aberrations - as in, what happened to them - not the Primarchs themselves. Granted, that could also lead one to think that a Primarch (who can succumb to the sort of tragedy brought to mind when contemplating Horus' betrayal) isn't perfect, but that's neither here nor there. Dorn is trying to figure out why Horus is doing what he's doing. It's thus a stretch to assume that he thinks of his lost brothers not in terms of what THEY did (that in turn led to them being stricken from the records) but what they suffered from in terms of defects.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## jwes82

In the novel First Herectic it's mentioned that the Word Bearers were the largest legion until something happened w the two unknown legions and that there ranks were absorbed by the Ultramarines which explains them having the highest number of marines


----------



## jwes82

on another note its also been mentioned that the emperor and all the Primarchs passed judgement on the two unknown legions b/c in first herectic again when magnus and lorgar are talking he tells lorgar that even Leman Russ didn't want to lose another brother after what happened to the other 2......apparently the emperor was thinking of doing the same to the word bearers


----------



## Haskanael

I think he seperate tragedies are earlie warp manifestations and influences cauzing mutation like wiht the thousand sons, like test runs by the gods of chaos to turn the marines. 
this also would explain why the Emp doesn't want them mentioned since well we all know tht the mention of chaos will draw the attention of chaos.


----------



## Deadeye776

As to the UM I don't know if I'd blame the lost legions for their numbers. Unlike majority of the other chapters Roboute had a lot of worlds to recruit from in his personal empire.


----------



## Baron Spikey

jwes82 said:


> In the novel First Herectic it's mentioned that the Word Bearers were the largest legion until something happened w the two unknown legions and that there ranks were absorbed by the Ultramarines which explains them having the highest number of marines


ADB himself has said that it was just a rumour passed between a pair of Word Bearers, who themselves didn't really believe it, and that it isn't true.


----------



## Deus Mortis

Baron Spikey said:


> ADB himself has said that it was just a rumour passed between a pair of Word Bearers, who themselves didn't really believe it, and that it isn't true.


But, Lorgar does try and mention in his conversation with Magnus about the two missing primarchs, and Magnus essentially tells him to stop talking about them. So, in terms of time-lines, we can assume that the two legions were expunged before the Word Bearers were told to stop worshiping the Emperor, and so way before the Horus Heresy.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Deus Mortis said:


> But, Lorgar does try and mention in his conversation with Magnus about the two missing primarchs, and Magnus essentially tells him to stop talking about them. So, in terms of time-lines, we can assume that the two legions were expunged before the Word Bearers were told to stop worshiping the Emperor, and so way before the Horus Heresy.


That's true. But what is your point?


----------



## Serpion5

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That's true. But what is your point?


It's info for the second and eleventh chapters.  

Bad juju!


----------



## Baron Spikey

Deus Mortis said:


> But, Lorgar does try and mention in his conversation with Magnus about the two missing primarchs, and Magnus essentially tells him to stop talking about them. So, in terms of time-lines, we can assume that the two legions were expunged before the Word Bearers were told to stop worshiping the Emperor, and so way before the Horus Heresy.


Yes we know the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were expunged from the records decades before the Heresy, that's not in question.


----------



## Lost&Damned

I think were going about this the wrong way, we dont know what the missing primarchs are, but we do know what they arent.
The emperor created each primarch to embody a certain aspect or characteristic he felt was necessary for the conquest of the galaxy, he has the Alpha legion for intelligence gathering, he has Dorn for building fortresses, Perturabo for sieges, Magnus for psychic might etc... so what dosent he have yet, what aspects have not been embodied by the remaining 18?
my thoughts are:
1- the opposite of a psyker, something similar to the Pariah gene, a void/null something he could use to specifically fight against psykers, i think this is a logical step.
2- this is a loooong shot but perhaps something like an iterator, a diplomat? someone who could forge alliances, turn enemies into willing allies/protectorates etc..., not really sure how it would work but im open to any advice


----------



## MEQinc

Lost&Damned said:


> 2- this is a loooong shot but perhaps something like an iterator, a diplomat? someone who could forge alliances, turn enemies into willing allies/protectorates etc..., not really sure how it would work but im open to any advice


This seems to have been Horus' role in the group. He is always credited as being the most diplomatic and political, in addition to being generally best at everything.


----------



## Lost&Damned

hmm..... Maybe a Primarch specializing in void warfare, perhaps he could hook into the starships and use them more efficiently/faster.
other than that and the previous one i cant really see any other possible aspects of warfare that a Primarch could embody that hasn't already been taken.
I also dont think they are dead since the remaining primarchs arent even sure if they themselves can be killed. (Lorgar in butchers nails)


----------



## COMPNOR

Lost&Damned said:


> hmm..... Maybe a Primarch specializing in void warfare, perhaps he could hook into the starships and use them more efficiently/faster.
> other than that and the previous one i cant really see any other possible aspects of warfare that a Primarch could embody that hasn't already been taken.
> I also dont think they are dead since the remaining primarchs arent even sure if they themselves can be killed. (Lorgar in butchers nails)


?? Primarchs can and have died. Whether the lost ones are dead or not who knows.

Make a primarch is a superior pilot, and so follows his legion? I mean, air superiority is a big thing in warfare. Engineered to be able to survive high-g stresses, maybe even vacuum for a bit?


----------



## Lost&Damned

Yeah i agree, air superiority would help loads, the whole hooking up to the ship would be massive advantage in void warfare, reaction times would be much faster, can respond and engage in a more efficient manner, can dodge roll and all that good stuff swifter and easier.
The vacuum idea is pretty good, as is the high G force resistance.

as in before Ferrus died, before Ferrus a Primarch was never known to have died, no one really thought it possible and Lorgar said something along the lines of "im not even sure if we can die" then Angron reminded him Ferrus died, showing that ferrus, at least according to angron and Lorgar was the first to ever die.


----------



## COMPNOR

Considering they don't speak about the lost legions at all, I'd say its possible they're dead. If like only the Wolves were involved, who knows what the rest of the legions actually know. And they could have been taken alive, buried in the deepest darkest dungeons, and then quietly executed, so that not even the Primarchs know. 

I mean leaving them lose to run around would seem like a bad idea.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lost&Damned said:


> Yeah i agree, air superiority would help loads, the whole hooking up to the ship would be massive advantage in void warfare, reaction times would be much faster, can respond and engage in a more efficient manner, can dodge roll and all that good stuff swifter and easier.
> The vacuum idea is pretty good, as is the high G force resistance.


All the Primarchs were gifted with post-human reactions and thought-processes which enabled them to have considerable advantages in terms of void-warfare. Creating one specifically designed for this would have been illogical considering all of them could have been (and were) gifted with such traits. Why create only a single Primarch which would have been superior in void-warfare when all could have been? 

Although that having been said, it is still not clear the Emperor intended each Primarch for specific tasks or as embodying specific traits. Some people, and indeed some Primarchs believed it - but it's not clear.


----------



## TheReverend

Lost&Damned said:


> as in before Ferrus died, before Ferrus a Primarch was never known to have died, no one really thought it possible and Lorgar said something along the lines of "im not even sure if we can die" then Angron reminded him Ferrus died, showing that ferrus, at least according to angron and Lorgar was the first to ever die.


This is a very good point, if Ferrus is the first Primarch known to die then what happened to the other two? 

Maybe the Emperor killed them? or maybe he used them and they are still alive? 

The answer is, GW will never tell us so we'll never know


----------



## Darkoan

TheReverend said:


> This is a very good point, if Ferrus is the first Primarch known to die then what happened to the other two?


Agree, that is a good point. I would wager that the author simply forgot about the 2 lost Primarchs when writing this, but maybe he didnt.

In which case its a fair bet that the Primarchs werent killed. Or not known to have been killed. Escaped/ exiled to the Warp? On the flip side Russ was sent to 'deal' with them. Which can only mean 'kill'. 

In short too many variables and uncertainties to be sure.

My vote goes for 2 female psychic blank Primarchs. 

My 'secondary' vote goes for one Primarch who was an alien-sympathiser and the other Primarch was a pacifist (which would explain why they werent compatible with the Great Crusade/ nascent Imperium and had their records were expunged).


----------



## Sethis

I'm going for at least one of them suffering catastrophic genetic mutation, either due to being inherently flawed or environmental factors. Basically at least one Primarch + Legion has to be euthanised. Not sure about the other.


----------



## MEQinc

Lost&Damned said:


> Lorgar said something along the lines of "im not even sure if we can die" then Angron reminded him Ferrus died, showing that ferrus, at least according to angron and Lorgar was the first to ever die.


It's possible that Angron was merely pointing to the most recent Primarch death, or the only one he witnessed. However, it does definitely seem to be hinting that the other two either aren't dead or aren't known to be dead. It's interesting to note then that every other Primarch I can think of (including Russ) speaks of 'losing' their brothers which is a common euphemism for death but could be much more literal.


----------



## Serpion5

Ships get lost in the warp on a regular basis. 

They suffered "two separate tragedies," perhaps this can account for one of them?


----------



## kermitfries

I cant remember where I read this from, it might have been in Prospero Burns, But when a Space wolf is taking to Leman Russ about how he feels on having to go and fight Magnus and the Thousand suns, Russ responds with something like, this is not the first time I have had to fight my one of my brothers, maybe impying about the II and XI legion Since the emperor usually sends Leman Russ to go and slap the hands of legions that are acting out of order.


----------



## danielg

Cruor99 said:


> WarWolf: The Blood Ravens' "unknown" primarch is likely to be Magnus the Red. He is unknown because they themselves do not know their own primarch. Everything about the past is supposedly "lost," which is remarkable for a chapter that prizes knowledge and history.


I heard that the Adeptus Mechanicus couldn't match the genetic lineage to any known primarch, and their traits and mutations are also not of any known primarch. So I may be mistaken but isn't that, along with all the mystery their history is shrouded in not a hint that they might be one of the missing legions.
I probably wrong and I understand this raises a lot of questions. But still...


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## danielg

Also I have been looking into it and I found out that Magnus the Red said the emperor personally purged the two Primarchs, so they are most likely dead.

However both lost Legions are said to have been expunged from Imperial records for 'good reason'. They are said to have in some way acted shamefully. I can't find any evidence to say that the 2 legions were also executed.

Sanguinus also hints that the reason the primarchs were destroyed was a genetic flaw or mutation, while talking to Horus about the Red thirst. Blood ravens have several flaws or mutations and are highly pysker,


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