# White Dwarf - time to stop?



## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

I know White Dwarf has had much criticism over the last few years as its content to advert ratio has become even more poorly balanced.

But do you think it has reached a point where maybe GW should cut its losses and stop the magazine?

Paper based magazines are becoming less profitable and circulations shrink such that a single target niche magazine which only serves one audience seems hardly viable.

Or should GW keep it going for nostalgias sake? do you think there is any viability in it still?

Finally how about White Dwarf online? should there be an online or mobile media version with pay per issue? or does it just not translate?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Let the Hobbyists write it rather than the businessmen, put back the scenery-making articles and bring back the White Dwarf Postbox. That was useful, that was. Now the only letters we get to read are the ones that Jervis puts in Standard Bearer and then doesn't write about. Support the Specialist Games and have a fairly balanced amount of space for each games system. Do fun or historically important (Battle for Macragge, Iyanden vs. Kraken etc.) Battle Reports. Then White Dwarf will be awesome once more.

Midnight


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Return great fluffy articles like the Chapter approved series. I quite like the idea of the readers and the fans writing and publishing articles in the magazine. A sort of hub for the fans if you will. I believe there might be more interest arise in the hobbyists of the game.

And will someone please assasinate Jervis friggin Johnson already! His standard bearer articles have already made the magazine 10x crapper as it is.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

I buy it now and again, even though I have to take out a second Mortgage to do so. Unfortunately, I always expect too much from the magazine and I am always disappointed. Too many adverts, too many battle reports (a recent one had 3). Not enough down-to-earth basics. As mentioned before… how about input from the hobbyists and gamers themselves. 
I would welcome it online, but would probably not pay for the privilege.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

theres a thread thats sorta related to this, Link

but yes, White Dwarf really is no longer worth buying.

they used to have a web-zine, anyone remember the Black Gobo?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

they don't need to stop making it, they just need to stop making it so shit.

tell jervis to fuck off
reduce the number of ads
make battle reports real
get fat bloke back
and reduce the cost to something more realistic.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

:goodpost:

Best use of common sense I have heard all day!


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I don't really have much to add above what others have already said but it has been kinda sad to watch the decline of the magazine over the last couple of years. I still buy it for the painting articles now and then, but I rarely read Jervis' articles, and the battle reports are rigged to sell whatever the new release is.... It is kinda sad in all honest. Stephen I am going to second a vote to return the Chapter Approved articles at least they were a good read.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

When it was 6 bucks, fat bloke ran it, and it had real fucking articles in it, it was great.

Now I am paying for a catalog that has crap in it.

I get much better information from Model mags and this website.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Get Chapter Approved back, give Jervis 10 extra pages, and terrain making tutorial and we are fine...


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Lower the price, you forgot that.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah. Bring back the £3.50 days!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I agree these days white dwarf feels more, and more like one giant add (Like some video game magazines I know of).


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Whats sad is there has been a couple standalone model magazines that have tried to start up but failed, their overall feel was better because it wasn't just about one line. They covered reaper, 40k, fantasy, CAV etc etc.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Do they still make Nintendo Power (was that what the magazine was called?)

Anyway I feel for the newbie players who never saw what WD was years ago. WD was what got me really into the game. I bought Heroquest way back when and saw the little pamphlet, but it was when I borrowed a WD off a friend of my brothers. The magazine sold the hobby to me without having a bunch of fucking ads and bullshit. I don't know why GW chose the route they did with WD, but they definitely need to restructure the magazine.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

What kills me is why the hell do they put ads in a magazine that is solely about their products. They used to be slick about it. They would have a conversion section on how to make some really nice stuff and then tell you what kits you had to buy to make it. Covert advertising like that is fine, but the 'FUCKING BUY THIS SHIT HERE" advertising they have now is over the top. To me they seem to take all the fun stuff out of the magazine and replace it with the rubbish bullshit that I know I can not stand. I am not a huge fan of battle reports, but they sure as hell shove it full with them.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

The Adds are not all that numerous compared to other magazines... I once compared the amount of adds with a single Star Wars comic, and the comic had two adds more... And it is only 30 pages for fucks sake!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

WD is one huge ad if you think about it. I mean is GW paying themselves for space in their magazine.... Movie and book fans will buy the comic because they love the series. We buy WD because we play GW games! 

I gain more information about the hobby and trick from the forum in 1 week then I do from 12 months of WD anymore. There is nothing they have to offer me anymore.

Its the same reason I stopped buying most computer magazines, they cost way to much for the crap information you get form them. 

I picked up my first issue of White Dwarf back in 95 and it as great back them. It got better when the Bloke took over and started putting stuff in like chapter approved and fluff that was fun to read. The current model of the magazine does not make sense to me. Its like they are trying to sell a product to us that we already buy.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

WD is too what got me into the game in the first place. I robbed the October 2002 edition from a friend, got hooked on the Galrauch model and the new spiky marines and never looked back since. It is such a shame to look at the sorry state of the magazine now.

I also want the return of the Heroes and Villains of the 40K universe to return. Maybe also extend it to include the fantasy and LotR series.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Doelago said:


> give Jervis 10 extra pages


your joking right?, even hardcore fanboys despise that moron.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Pretty much everything Midnight and Stella said. WD needs better content and a lower price.

The articles on making scenery were always a great idea. 'Blue Peter'ing' stuff was part of what alot of people enjoyed about the hobby, and still do. Heck, how many converted Ork Forts and bunkers etc do they feature, yet do they tell anyone how to make them? No.

Also, there was a time when they had the heavy metal painting articles and actually showed you how to do stuff rather then assumed you already knew. That needs to come back too with the 'featured model' spotlights on how to paint the new or interesting stuff well.

As said, the articles now are crap and need much overhauling. The bollocks mentality of 'Well if the new army we're trying to push didn't win, you'd not buy it', is just plain stupid. You buy an army because you love it, not because it wins an obviously staged battle. 

Bring back the good old fluffy articles and features on special characters and how best to use a certain troop type, and actually make it a usefull and essential suppliment to teh hobby rather then just a bland 'do this, buy this' peice of crap it is now.

For what it is now you might as well just stick it on the website as a pdf and have done with it and save the printing and distribution cost.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> your joking right?, even hardcore fanboys despise that moron.


Njah, maybe just 5 would be enough... I actually quite enjoy the "Standard Bearers". By far one of the best parts in the magazine... :wink:


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

The problem people have, which is pretty clear from this thread so far, is that every page is essentially an advert for GW product - there are no other products in the magazine - so why they feel the need to waste a double page spread with say, all the WFB battalions is beyond us (and charge more for it!)

Let the fans send in stuff specifically for the mag to fill those pages; articles, tournament reports, painted models - they're still advertising GW product but a lot less in-your-face-buy-this-NOW.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Doelago said:


> Njah, maybe just 5 would be enough... I actually quite enjoy the "Standard Bearers". By far one of the best parts in the magazine... :wink:


o..k..*takes a few steps back* I suppose somebody has to enjoy the ramblings of a complete moron


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> o..k..*takes a few steps back* I suppose somebody has to enjoy the ramblings of a complete moron


:laugh: Of course!


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## 18827 (Oct 23, 2009)

We're all fed up with what white dwarf has become,

And I have been wondering is any one on here up for this idea to try and get things changed.
Send them a letter but all on post said letter on the same day
Pick a date and spread the word on any of the forums you use. 
write down what you think makes white dwarf suck and what you would change to make it better.
then all on the chosen date (or as close to as possible) send the letter to.


White Dwarf,
Games Workshop,
Willow Road,
Lenton,
Nottingham,
NG7 2WS


If they get enough letters on one day then they might just take notice and sort this shit out,

and thoughts?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

jimmy gunn said:


> If they get enough letters on one day then they might just take notice and sort this shit out,


or they'll ignore all the letters like they always have done when its been done in the past, burn them all and increase the price of WD to £5 and half the amount of pages and make them all ads.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

People tend to forget that WD carried tons of ads, since the first issue. Sure, back then the ads were all for other people's games (Traveller, AD&D, Dr Who and the like) but so were the models.


Ever since GW has made their own game systems and crushed the others, they have had about 20-25% of pages as Ads...while this has increased, it's not a new thing by any means. They just have much bigger ranges to try and sell.

I would hate fewer Battle Reports, just better ones, with proper army lists. Nice if they didn't cheat, too. 

You can't BE a GW fanboi if you don't like Jervis - and as much as I would love his association with the Company to end, at least if he's writing SB articles he isn't writing Codexes!

...Also, his take on the Hobby is somewhat interesting, in that I like to know what he thinks, so I can counter it better. Given how vehemently he hates tournament players (despite creating the GT system) I'm surprised more people here don't want to give him 'happyspecialfriendtime' in a darkened room.

Oh - the Conclusion - I'd be sad to see it go, but in the way you're sad a terminally ill or crippled pet is put down. Sorry it HAD to happen, more than sorry it DID.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

White Dwarf will never go away its part of the furniture, its just eye candy to pass the time, its the method by which new gamers cross over into the other systems. Its an easy way to get a glimpse at the hobby. But should be cheaper considering the content, but its priced about the same as other magazines, personally i hate the battle reports, couldnt honestly give a donkeys dick who won against who over ten pages, i would like more "how to make your shit look like our cool shit" articles


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

White Dwarfs are so expensive...they need to either do one of two things, in my opinion:

1. Make it $5-6 or so, decreasing its size if need be.

2. Add more interesting and fluffy articles. Don't just obsess on the newest models coming out. I can see those sort of ads online at the GW website. What I really want are interesting articles on models and armies I already own.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

I don't think it that GW should stop the magazing, like other people have said reduce the price, reduce the ads and reduce the "oh this army wins because its the newest army out...". That really annoys me, all they're trying to do is get the 11 years olds that read the mag to start another 6 armies... 

I also think that getting people to actually send articles in would be great, for instance, what they did on the "Whats new today" section on the GW website with the army spotlight. So if they asked them to supply good quality pics and step by step instructions on how to paint this model (like the stuff from the tutorials section), it'll just give it a more friendly hobbiest view on things...

Its the same for the Battle Reports if someone actually make a battle report took good pictures, explained it all, then it would be a great article. Also, it wouldn't be biased like gw do it, they just make it shitty... Also, a lot more "different" army lists used, for the most part you see the same stuff over and over again. Just annoys me that they use the same list, and have such different outcomes.

Another thing, they never have anything on tactics! I would love a good article on how to use a specific unit, rather than just them saying "this unit makes a good all rounder!". Especially if someone was actually mailing them in because that means that you're getting actual tactics that someone has used actually in one of their games. Would make much more sense.

And getting rid of Jervis would be a good move on GW's part. He never talks about anything of interest, it's usually "Oh, I entered a tournament, and asked each of them about how often they wiped their ass". It's just so BORING. The worst is when he sticks graphs and shit like that on, it's so much better if his cover guy was on permanently, at least he talks about decent stuff like the classic models and stuff like that...


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

In defense of WD, some of the recent painting articles have been quite interesting. Nothing I cant get from the wbe I expect, but nicely presented and easy to follow.

Jervis is an annoying git. I really believe his whole goal in life is to destroy players who want to win anything. Still if it stops him actually writing rules.

Articles such as special scenarios, some apocalypse data sheets and that kind of thing would be a nice change.

Just out of interest what is the LoTR coverage like? I dont read the articles as I dont play the game at all.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

So many people bashing it, and here I am about to sign up for a subscription. Looks like a fan mag to me.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

humakt said:


> Just out of interest what is the LoTR coverage like? I dont read the articles as I dont play the game at all.


don't ask that on forums, LotR is lucky to get 1 page in between all the 40k rubbish but you'll have people bitch and moan and whine and complain that the entire magazine is nothing but LotR on every single page.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Let the Hobbyists write it rather than the businessmen, put back the scenery-making articles and bring back the White Dwarf Postbox. That was useful, that was. Now the only letters we get to read are the ones that Jervis puts in Standard Bearer and then doesn't write about. Support the Specialist Games and have a fairly balanced amount of space for each games system. Do fun or historically important (Battle for Macragge, Iyanden vs. Kraken etc.) Battle Reports. Then White Dwarf will be awesome once more.
> 
> Midnight


This. I've read two WDs and both of them have pretty much the same boring thing.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

*NOT A RANT, but VERY HELPFUL ADVICE to any GW employee who might be reading this!*


I don't mind the advertisements so much. I understand they're a business and sales of their product is what keeps them going. When they showcase a new army and show us the design process/new models, etc. I find it somewhat interesting. To me, it all depends on how it's done.

I'm more concerned about the other content. Most of the time it's just rubbish. For example, the often mentioned so far standard bearer articles by Jervis. Sorry, I'm sure he's a nice guy and have nothing against him as a human being, but his articles (honestly) just suck. I hardly _*ever*_ read it, and anything interesting he had to say about the hobby were covered in the first few articles he wrote. I agree with many of you guys, bring back dirty Steve, or even if you wanted to, make it dirty Jervis, but please bring back the freshness outside input brings! 



*Things I find wrong with WD:*
*- Short, under detailed, space filling articles that don't accomplish anything*
..........I've already covered the standard bearer _I don't know what to talk about so I'll just come up with something and waste your time and money nonsense..._ so I'll give another example. A half a page of text and 3 and a half pages of full color photos of a "Dead World," why? As the old sayings go, "if your going to do something, do it right, or not at all..." and "try to accomplish too much, and you end up accomplishing nothing." Give us substance. Inspire us! 


*- Poorly detailed, supremely neutered, battle reports*
...........way better graphically pleasing than the reports of yesteryear, but always feel rushed and cut short by an increasingly tightened page count. As more pages are given to adverts and other useless articles, a fan favorite like battle reports are given the shaft. 


*- Tri-fold focus on three game systems *_(LotR especially)_
..........While I understand the business concepts here, GW and WD also need to balance that with value to the customer. As you raise prices and reduce the content your readers are interested in, you'll begin to loose customers. For instance, I only play 40k and can tell you definitively that I don't have the time or money to expand into warhammer or Lord of the Rings. That reduces the content of the magazine that I'm interested in even further! I don't know the exact financial numbers, but I think I can guess from the space given to LotR's at tournaments and by the number of dedicated internet forums... that LotR makes up a tiny, tiny portion of GW's total sales. Yet, for some unfathomable reason, they disproportionately get as much space (sometimes MORE!) given to them in White Dwarf than is given to the other two systems. Why? Cause GW wants us to buy into LotR. GW's invested heavily into LotR but it's an absolute albatross around their neck. Time to wake up, cut your losses, and give the people what they want. We don't want LotR, we want 40K and warhammer. Have White Dwarf give the people what they want and you'll make money! Don't be like George Lucas who ruined Star Wars Episode 1 by his I don't care, I'll do what I want and not what the people want, pride. Just do a quick study into the amount of revenue Jar Jar Binks or ewok toys, comics, books, etc. have brought Lucas verses Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Jedi, etc.... 


*- Price*
..........Wow. What to say here that hasn't already been said. GW is close, very close, to loosing the balance between price and value. This year I barely... and I do mean _*barely*,_ decided to renew my subscription. I know many who have already quit theirs, and i'm giving WD this one year to change my mind. Up the value, and people will pay. Just look at the sweet model situation. WAY improved models = we're paying their ridiculously high prices to start new armies and add to existing ones. While the quality of their models has skyrocketed, the quality of white dwarf on the other hand (other than graphically) has been steadily dropping. If things don't improve after this year, I'll be hanging it up after this years subscription runs out. 



*Advice to WD from a 7 year subscriber:* 
*#1.)* *Cut your losses with LotR* and quit trying to use the success of warhammer and 40k to float that sinking ship. This will free up 1/3rd of the space in WD for articles dedicated to your two breadwinners! 


*#2.)* *When you do a battle report make it into a big deal* like you used to. Create and develop a cool back story and fight it out in legendary fashion. Also, have the best generals fight the battle. We want to be inspired, not bored. Inspire us again to play the game like you once used to do...


*#3.)* *Include more inspiring articles about the game itself.* If I could pass on one concept to GW it would be to inspire us again. Give us ideas, give us fluff, spark our imaginations. An excellent example of this would be when they rolled out Apocalypse. Who didn't feel inspired by that white dwarf to get into an Apocalypse game? I realize they can't produce that level of grandeur each month, but they can do more things like Phil Kelly's recent article on the fluff behind the DE kabals in U.S. WD # 371. Very imaginative, very inspiring. It immersed me into the world of the DE and inspired me. It got me thinking about how fun it would be to play a DE army. That coupled with this months WD article on DE tactics is an EXCELLENT and creatively inspiring way to get me to want to purchase their product. Add to that beautifully sculpted, painted, and photographed models and you have the kind of creative marketing I don't mind. The inspiring kind. 


*#4.)* *Include more helpful*, here's the word again, *inspiring articles about modeling.* WD used to showcase experts all over the hobby, not just those who work in the gilded halls of GW. At some point they stopped going outside to show the amazing people of the hobby and just focus on doing things all in house. While this may be easier ("hey, go ask frank 10 desks down if we can showcase his Chaos army in April's WD"), it isn't necessarily better. Where we once used to turn to WD to find inspiration, we now go to internet forums like this one to find the amazing talent that inspires us to do better, to dream new ideas, and to start new armies. Bring back the outside talent to WD! Have them teach us about green stuff, about how to cut and pin, how to use rare earth magnets, how to build terrain creatively from everyday items and how to incorporate that with the terrain sold by GW. Give us assignments like funniest home videos and watch the creativity pour in. Become the clearing house for imagination and innovation that you once were. Why would people come back to WD instead of the internet? Because no one can take better photos, put it against better backdrops, create a better layout, and give it an all around better package than WD can. Get back to your roots WD, and you shall find success!


*#5.)* *Drop your price.* For heaven's sake your pages aren't gold leaf. Why do you have to charge so much? Because your company is so huge and bloated with overhead, that's why. You have way too much overhead that has to be passed onto the consumer. At some point you will go too far (both WD and GW as a whole) and you'll begin to bleed customers. Once that happens you'll either have to fire people and reduce overhead, or you'll have to keep increasing prices to pay your bills (which only accelerates the problem). Sound familiar? Wait... that's what's already happening. Cut your overhead and make things affordable again. I know tons, and I do mean tons, of people who would get into your games if they were cheaper. What could you cut? Good question. I think I already gave you that advice. LotR!!! I know, pride is a hard thing to let go of. You got in cause you thought all of us would jump on board and we haven't. Instead of pulling out and cutting your losses you've increased your commitment to it in the hopes we'd get on board. The only super successful product you've made out of that series? The Balrog. Why? Cause people snipe it to use as a Bloodthirster alternative or to use it's wings for their daemon princes. Noticed you're selling the wings separately now. Why? Cause tons of people are buying them for use in your other two primary game systems. Remember them? Your successful ones? Yeah... stick to them! How much overhead could be saved if you didn't waste time with LotR? Case in point. Remember the hobbiton range you spent so much time developing, manufacturing, and marketing for the scourging of the shire? Hobbits with sticks and short bows verses Sharkey's thugs? What? Who thought that was going to be a huge seller??? Cut your losses GW & WD. Cut your losses and move back to the two game systems that got you where you're at! I.e. give the people what they want! :yahoo:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Good modeling article would be a great thing to reintroduce. Kit bashing suggestions, green stuff techniques... hell anything beyond the paint things this way bare bones tutorials you can find millions of online.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Uber Ork said:


> *Advice to WD from a 7 year subscriber:*
> *#1.)* *Cut your losses with LotR* and quit trying to use the success of warhammer and 40k to float that sinking ship. This will free up 1/3rd of the space in WD for articles dedicated to your two breadwinners!


I always find this advice hilarious, cut the one system that actually earns GW more money than 40k does in europe, brilliant idea.

I'd also love to see these WD's with 1/3 space taken up by LotR, I haven't seen that much space used since release, heck even then I think it was allot less, last time a WD had allot of LotR was battlehosts release, since then its 5 pages maybe max.

unless your WD is only 15 pages long, I'd send them back if they are.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Umm.. actually, at my local GW store for instance, we don't have a single LotR player...

But Yeah, Uber Ork sums up things nicely.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GrizBe said:


> Umm.. actually, at my local GW store for instance, we don't have a single LotR player...


but your store isn't europe.

if it is thats one fucking huge store, and its all in england, amazing since it wouldn't fit.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> I always find this advice hilarious, cut the one system that actually earns GW more money than 40k does in europe, brilliant idea.


Well how about cutting it where it doesn't sell? Does that make a little more sense for you? I guess it makes good business sense for me. 

Had you looked at my avatar/profile as well as the content of my advice to WD/GW (where I site a specific U.S. white dwarf issue, comment on the tournaments that I have seen/been to, which of course logically would have been in, the U.S.) that my advice is for the U.S. WD team (and GW marketing group as a whole). Perhaps I needed to be more clear for you. 

While we all know the lions share of the WD content is the same for all countries, they still have different WD teams for specific countries, and for good reason. Those teams know how best to market to those countries. Since I am in the U.S. and a 7 year subscriber to the U.S. WD, I shall amend my earlier statement...

*Advice to WD from a 7 year subscriber in the U.S.:* 


It would be a small amount of work to add more specific warhammer/40K content (two systems that in the U.S. anyway, are GW's major breadwinners), and less of LotR (again, for the U.S. issue at least). 


Also, I'm curious...

I would expect there to be a large number and huge followings with LotR being so huge in Europe. I did a quick LotR forum search on google and clicked on all those forums that showed up on the first page (didn't have time to look extensively). All I found of any substance was The Last Alliance with 929 members, and The One Ring with 4,709. Do you know of any more? What are the big ones? I'm thinking ones that more compare with the large 40k/warhammer forums like Warseer, Bell of Lost Souls, Dakka Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, The-Waaagh, etc. etc. ...and of course, our own illustrious board which had 6545 active users made up of 724 members and 5821 guests in the past 24 hours alone (well, those were the stats at the time I just looked it up). 

If you look at the amount of posts in the LotR section here (located in the "other games" section) for example, you see 1,118 posts. Total. No sub forums. That's it. I didn't really want to take the time to add up all the post counts for all the 40k, warhammer, and all their respective sub forums for Heresy Online... but I think you get my point. 

If LotR isn't big on the forums I mentioned (and that list wasn't even remotely comprehensive), and since all those forums are international, you'd think you'd have way more LotR (a product that outsells 40K in Europe) content on them?

Most of the LotR forum action I've seen is in relation to boards like the ones I mentioned. They're all just like this one, offering a very small section to those fans of LotR. Are there other forums out there for LotR that are huge? There must be. Like I said, I only searched the first page on google... 

Also, in addition to the larger LotR forums, do you have the sales figures for 40k, warhammer, and LotR for Europe, the U.S., and worldwide? It sounded like you might have had them since you referred to LotR outselling 40K in Europe. If so, it would be really cool to see them. It'd be interesting to see what GW product sells best where...


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Its the same as how Blood Bowl is considered a 4th core system in Spain yet in England the only place I know that has a game board is Bugman's Bar!


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks *GrizBe* & *Stephen_Newman*. That's good to know. What you say seems very consistent with the evidence I've seen for the minuscule following of the LotR online. Regretably, I've only been to Europe once, but I didn't make it to a GW store while there. Europe was beautiful, and I wish I could have stayed _*much*_ longer. 

And *Stella Cadente* wouldn't *GrisBe's* store be in Europe? His flag shows that's where he lives anyway?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> I always find this advice hilarious, cut the one system that actually earns GW more money than 40k does in europe, brilliant idea.


Source please.


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

I had been led to believe that LOTR only sold well in the UK. I would be *very* surprised if LOTR outsold 40k when Space Marines alone outsell the entire Fantasy range by about 3 to 1.

It might have done several years ago when the films were released because GW reached their 3 film sales targets within their first 2 years. After that the sales imploded - you can see this from one of GW's annual reports in the recent past where their profits fell from several million to £100k, which can only be considered disastrous for an MNC (Multi-national corporation).

40k sales outstrip the other systems by a country mile in the States the last I'd heard. 

Fwiw, Blood Bowl is also a core game system in Germany. If anyone hasn't heard of it or played it then I'd strongly recommend that you do - its arguably the best game that GW have made and I'd rather spend time playing BB than 40k if given the choice. Its also dirt cheap by comparison. That's part of the problem - my LGS was told not to allow games of BB to be played/sold because it generates far less sales in comparison to the more popular games system.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Dear Mr Uber Dumbass

I do not understand your logic to your counter arguement that there are few LotR forum fansites.

As stated in a previous thread Blood Bowl is not a common game like LotR and I bet that has few fan forum websites. And yet it is considered a core game like 40K and Fantasy. Do you think that something that is this liked should also be scrapped because by your logic it should and yet if you did so you would have a few thousand pissed off Germans and Spaniards.

LotR has quite a good following in my local area (West Midlands, UK). But because the store is full of 40K players they tend to go to each others houses unless a specific LotR event is on.

Also LotR is perfect for fluff articles in WD. There are a number of interesting characters, battles, events and places that deserve a mention.

Think on that. Then reply with a rational, logical arguement to counter this if you can manage this.


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## Stormbrow II (May 10, 2010)

> I do not understand your logic to your counter arguement that there are few LotR forum fansites.


Is that my argument because if it is I've agreed that there are relatively few sites for LOTR compared to 40k etc. If it is I'll have an answer for you.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

By what I am trying to say is that 1. Size does not matter in all respects and2. That is a pretty crap example to pick as a strong prop for any arguement.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

:laugh: I literally laughed when I read your post. I think we need to calm down a bit here. I'm merely asking questions and making suggestions that would affect the U.S. alone. I'm not lobbying to have Blood Bowl removed from Germany and Spain, or saying that LotR is no good for fluff. Personally I love the books (first) and then the movies as well. 

Ok, now onto your post... 



Stephen_Newman said:


> I do not understand your logic to your counter arguement that there are few LotR forum fansites.


Well, it stands to reason that forum fan sites would reflect interest in something. If LotR outsold 40K in Europe, and Europe has some 830 million people in it, I'd imagine I'd see a huge following online. I don't so it seemed logical, to me anyway, that maybe it's not as big as the other two game systems which do have huge followings. Did you have some huge GW LotR forums for me? Like I said, I am interested in finding out how big the following is. 





Stephen_Newman said:


> As stated in a previous thread Blood Bowl is not a common game like LotR and I bet that has few fan forum websites. And yet it is considered a core game like 40K and Fantasy. Do you think that something that is this liked should also be scrapped because by your logic it should and yet if you did so you would have a few thousand @#!*% off Germans and Spaniards.


I'm glad you bring this up. In fact it illustrates what I'm saying, which I still don't think you're hearing. I'll try again using bloodbowl. 

In the U.S. for instance, BB is considered to be a specialty game, which clearly different than it is in other countries. It gets almost zero space in the U.S. white dwarf and, as far as I can tell only sparing attention from a modeling standpoint (maybe a specialty character every once in a while). Maybe that's different in another country GW sells to. Maybe there th game is bigger and should get more attention in the WD they receive. 

In other words, I'm saying the attention a product gets in WD should be proportional to how well it is received by the consumer. They tried to market LotR in the U.S., it didn't take beyond original interest and a continued modest following, yet it gets 1/3rd (sometimes more) of the WD space. If the people (in the U.S. -- won't speak for Europe here) don't want LotR but rather 40K and WFB, then give them what they're interested in.

I'm not sure what you're interested in, but for the sake of argument lets say you weren't interested in pink ponies. Would you purchase a magazine subscription all about pink ponies? No (neither would I BTW). Why? Because you're not interested in them. That is my point. In the U.S., we're (as a whole) not interested in them, yet they take up 1/3rd of the (expensive) magazine I subscribe to. Thus my advice to the *U.S.* WD is to drop them.

In the U.S. maybe they, like with BB in the U.S., GW and WD should downgrade LotR to specialty game status and give it the space in the U.S. WD that BB gets. Zero.

However, if it outsells 40k in Europe (did you have those stats BTW?), then maybe for the WD versions sold there they should make the LotR content even more, and the 40k content even less. I.e. target different regions differently. 





Stephen_Newman said:


> LotR has quite a good following in my local area (West Midlands, UK). But because the store is full of 40K players they tend to go to each others houses unless a specific LotR event is on.


Ok, here's where I laughed. So you're telling me that LotR outsells 40k in Europe, yet your own store is *SO* full of 40K players that the LotR guys end up going to each others houses unless a special LotR event is on. I think this kind of hurts your argument doesn't it?





Stephen_Newman said:


> Also LotR is perfect for fluff articles in WD. There are a number of interesting characters, battles, events and places that deserve a mention.


I don't buy the magazine for LotR, nor WFB for that matter. I can understand WFB however as I know it has a large following in the U.S. That makes sense to me from a business end. However, since it isn't the same situation (in the U.S. anyway) with LotR, why should it get the same amount of pages in the WD as the other two. Answer... it shouldn't. Thus my advice to the U.S. WD. 





Stephen_Newman said:


> Think on that. Then reply with a rational, logical arguement to counter this if you can manage this.


How'd I do?


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Back off Newman. Your being a git.

At no point in any one of his/her posts did UberOrk () Present anything less than rational, well thought out, opinion.
You are the one being irrational with your replies.

Whatever bit your ass is your problem. Go back to sleep.

SGMAlice


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Size does not matter in all respects


A common urban legend. It does. But whatever you need to tell yourself so you can sleep at night.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Uber Ork said:


> If you look at the amount of posts in the LotR section here
> If LotR isn't big on the forums
> Most of the LotR forum action
> in addition to the larger LotR forums


Forums are a bad place to get info from on numbers playing a system, just look at where most people are from on here alone, most flags of posters you'll see are US or UK, doesn't matter what section of the forum, you'll see very few european posters at all round on forums anywhere.

and dedicated forums with lots of european posters pretty much don't seem to exist with any system, not just LotR, maybe europeans have developed technolgy similar to that of ghost in the shell, where they can all communicate via there brains, and just not told us.


Uber Ork said:


> And Stella Cadente wouldn't GrisBe's store be in Europe? His flag shows that's where he lives anyway?


england is england, not europe, I don't consider myself european and so do the very VERY large majority of people in england, so england is not europe.


Stormbrow II said:


> I had been led to believe that LOTR only sold well in the UK. I would be *very* surprised if LOTR outsold 40k when Space Marines alone outsell the entire Fantasy range by about 3 to 1.


in germany it does, 40k doesn't have the same mass following there as it does in the US and UK, fantasy and LotR are prefered, dunno why, I blame black templars and the whole 40k background basically being nazi Germany.
bad memories.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Again my arguement is not being listened to.

I trying to argue that LotR cannot just be scrapped or reduced to special game status because it has a considerable size following. You may also notice that apart from the people who write it WD is practically the same across every country so if WD decides not to show LotR articles in their US edition then other countries WD's will follow the trend and before you know it there are some very unhappy gamers out there who have caused GW to lose money. Not good from a business perspective as you put it.

Next point size does not matter. Telling me it is a myth is stupid. There are countless examples of where the few beat the many. The battle of Thermopylae and the Battle of Britain are 2 real life examples of this that I just thought off the top of my head! So that whole its just a myth point just backfired spectactulary.

Maybe using my store as an example was a bad move on my part but then again according to Stella LotR sells better in Europe and since the British Empire most Brits have always felt disattatched from Europe and look at ourselves as a world power.

Not trying to be a dick here or even back the LotR system (Heck I have not played the game itself for years!) but instead trying to show that it is wrong to cut it out of the GW system like it never existed like the Praetorians and the Rainbow Warriors.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Your saying that not scrapping a game, or moving it to speciality status because of it having a considerable following is impossible to do... Yet, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Space Hulk, Blood Bowl... all have had considerable followings and yet, they were scrapped and moved to special status despite that because they were underperforming sales wise compared to 40k and Fantasy...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GrizBe said:


> Space Hulk, Blood Bowl... all have had considerable followings and yet, they were scrapped and moved to special status despite that because they were underperforming sales wise compared to 40k and Fantasy...


I'd hardly call space hulk underperforming sales wise, since it went out of stock almost instantly....though it was banned from GW stores just as quickly so that never made sense.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

It sold out, but since you only ever need the one boxed set, it didn't earn GW as much money as its other games as there were no add-ons or new troops to sell you.

And I mean both the origional version, AND the updated one released a few years ago. Heck, it even had a computer game for it at one point, but they still dropped it and stopped making it as it didn't make them enough money... 

Extremely stupid when they could make another few thousand sets and be guarenteed to sell them any time they wanted.

But thats my point... it sold extremely well, had a considerable following, yet they still dropped it as they couldn't make as much money off of it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

...The Battle of Britain was a fluke. The Germans had us by the balls, accidentally bombed a city, and that was ordered that to become the new strategy, because they never knew how close to defeat the RAF were.

As for Thermopylae...it's the classic last stand, yes...but they DIDN'T win. They were wiped out. They only bought time for Greece...not the same thing.

Not being English, and never have conducted any sort of survey, I cannot definitively state (baselessly) that the Majority of English people feel one way or the other about Europe. I CAN say that I have never seen widespread support for UKIP, Veritas, or the BNP and so I can only assume that staying in Europe and therefore not becoming financially crippled is the desire of the majority...as for 'thinking of themselves as European'...well, The United Kingdom IS in Europe, so it would stupid to think you weren't.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GrizBe said:


> But thats my point... it sold extremely well, had a considerable following, yet they still dropped it as they couldn't make as much money off of it.


but then they didn't really try to make money off it, they could of created new tiles, given rules for using other races like guard and Orks, made box sets of other forces like deathwing.

I gurantee if GW had made a box of something like 10 deathwing terminators to the same quality of the blood angel ones for the game, they would of made a killing off them alone, especially since people brought the blood angel ones for stupid money off ebay for 40k, so it appeals to 2 kinds of players.

but then of course they can piss off customers 5 minutes after getting the money off them by banning them in store.

there stupidity = there loss


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## newt_e (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't mind WD.

There have been useful Heavy Metal pages.
Battle reports could do with better army lists. The graphical symbols used aren't distinct enough, and often photos and graphics aren't facing the same way.
Standard bearer doesn't bother me too much. It's a 10 minute read.
I don't need the store finder every month, and a two page spread of new releases will work fine.
Need more fluff articles, and as others have said, a letters / QA page would be good.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Not being English, and never have conducted any sort of survey, I cannot definitively state (baselessly) that the Majority of English people feel one way or the other about Europe. I CAN say that I have never seen widespread support for UKIP, Veritas, or the BNP and so I can only assume that staying in Europe and therefore not becoming financially crippled is the desire of the majority...as for 'thinking of themselves as European'...well, The United Kingdom IS in Europe, so it would stupid to think you weren't.


Now you see you have this wrong , The United Kingdom does not want to be in "Europe" its Europe that wants to be in the United Kingdom, we just wont let them because that means we have to take France as part of the deal.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

LMAO.

As for Stella's Deathwing suggestion, I would definitely get on board with that. I would buy several...I regret not buying more Space Hulks for eBay!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Off topic much all?

We are all entitled to our opinions but keep the name calling to the recess area shall we. I think LotRs was a horrid license for GW to buy, you thinks its tits on a hog. You can call me a flaming asshole but now you have pissed me off and I still think LotR is a horrid game. 

Instead of people breaking down to 3rd grade behavior, why don't you highlight why you think the game you like it not a flaming pile of shit, in its own thread of course.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Best use of common sense I have heard all day!


Agreed.
I'd give her rep, but it won't let me.
I award rep sparingly, and I find it's often to the same people.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Stella's not a girl, lawl.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, Stella is the same all month long.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Again my arguement is not being listened to.


Well that's ok... neither is mine. :laugh:

Ok. I'll try this again...




Stephen_Newman said:


> I trying to argue that LotR cannot just be scrapped or reduced to special game status because it has a considerable size following.


I think I've said this several times over two different posts, but I'm *not* saying scrap the game. ...What I am saying, is in the _*U.S.*_ In the _*U.S.*_ In the _*U.S.*_ In the _*United States of America only.*_ Only in the _*U.S. of A.*_ Only. *(where the game doesn't sell well) it should be reduced (not scrapped) to specialty game status. _*Not scrapped.*_ Scrapped no. *No to scrapping.* Reduced to specialty status yes. Not taking up 1/3rd of the _*U.S. WD's*_ *U.S. WD's* only. *ONLY *U.S. WD's. *NOT* other countries WD's. 

Other countries who would *NOT* be reducing LotR to specialty games (again, NOT scrapping... *NO ONE* is scrapping) include... England, the rest of Europe, etc.






Stephen_Newman said:


> You may also notice that apart from the people who write it WD is practically the same across every country so if WD decides not to show LotR articles in their US edition then other countries WD's will follow the trend and before you know it there are some very unhappy gamers out there who have caused GW to lose money. Not good from a business perspective as you put it.


Already covered this here...


Uber Ork said:


> While we all know the lions share of the WD content is the same for all countries, they still have different WD teams for specific countries, and for good reason. Those teams know how best to market to those countries...
> 
> It would be a small amount of work to add more specific warhammer/40K content (two systems that in the U.S. anyway, are GW's major breadwinners), and less of LotR (again, for the U.S. issue at least).








Stephen_Newman said:


> Next point size does not matter. Telling me it is a myth is stupid. There are countless examples of where the few beat the many. The battle of Thermopylae and the Battle of Britain are 2 real life examples of this that I just thought off the top of my head! So that whole its just a myth point just backfired spectactulary.


Don't you think economics is just a little bit different? I'm just trying to picture you explaining this concepts to a bunch of corporate executives. Where GW is concerned we're not talking about a small band of some 4,000 GW staffers trying to hold off the entire Persian empire, or taking to the skies to defend their homeland. We're talking about sales. Does it really make economic sense to you to invest say (for the sake of argument) 33% of your marketing, manufacturing, etc. again IN THE U.S. for a product that only earns you (again, for the sake of argument... and for heavens sake, again, *IN THE U.S.*) 8% of your sales? 

P.S. I agree with the military assesments already given about both the battle of Thermopylae and the Battle of Britain. After the Greeks lost the battle of Thermopylae Xerxes marched around at will sacking and burning Greek cities. Even mighty Athens was plundered and put to the torch. It was only due to an arrogantly foolish, and ultimately disastrous loss by the Persian navy that allowed the Greeks a reprieve. 






Stephen_Newman said:


> Maybe using my store as an example was a bad move on my part but then again according to Stella LotR sells better in Europe


So you don't think backing up what I've seen (since none of us have hard facts on actual GW sales available to us) with evidence gathered from many of the largest forums full of GW consumers (we're talking thousands and thousands of people) is more credible than *Stella*? 






Stephen_Newman said:


> Not trying to be a dick here...


Didn't say you were. 




Stephen_Newman said:


> ...or even back the LotR system (Heck I have not played the game itself for years!) but instead trying to show that it is wrong to cut it out of the GW system


Not advocating that. Again... just that in the *U.S.* they downgrade it to Specialty Game status and give it the same coverage in the *U.S.* WD that the other specialty games get which is practically zero. Again... U.S. *ONLY*. 






Stella Cadente said:


> Forums are a bad place to get info from on numbers playing a system, just look at where most people are from on here alone, most flags of posters you'll see are US or UK, doesn't matter what section of the forum, you'll see very few european posters at all round on forums anywhere.
> 
> and dedicated forums with lots of european posters pretty much don't seem to exist with any system, not just LotR,


Ok, fair enough. Then do you know the sales figures for LotR in Europe? I guess what I'm asking is what evidence you use to formulate your conclusions?






Stella Cadente said:


> england is england, not europe, I don't consider myself european and so do the very VERY large majority of people in england, so england is not europe.


Don't you think we're just playing with semantics here?  England is a part of Europe, but what you're saying is many in England don't want to be linked with the the rest of Europe. Anyway... I'm not sure why we're still all talking about how my comments would affect Europe, since in at least two previous posts I only indicated I was talking about the *U.S.*. :laugh:


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> Well that's ok... neither is mine. :laugh:
> 
> Ok. I'll try this again...
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Fine. You can argue about the case of the US. I don't live there and no offence meant but I do not have any intention of ever living there. Going back to basic facts LotR barely gets any pages in the UK WD anyways and I cannot imagine the situation being too different in the US. You should be lucky to see more than 3 whole pages dedicated to LotR. The way to cut out pages is to get rid of advertising for products they have already introduced in the new releases section and killing Jervis Johnson.

Next I say according to Stella because I have little faith in his bold claims either. Although being paranoid most the day never helps.

Stupid last point but every day and every aspect of it can be considered a battle. Yes even in Economics but surely you have to battle to get that important deal to go your way. It also takes a certain style to be able to haggle effectively. Maybe going so far as to describe them as actual real battles in history is going a bit far but you can get the general jist behind it if you think enough.

Last thing but to my knowledge the Battle of Bannockburn is a beautiful example of the few defeating the many.


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## HelbrechtBT (Oct 28, 2008)

After looking through my most up to date White Dwarf i think that most people here do have the right idea.Cheaper and less ads would help make it more attractive, but there are a few other things that may help. 

First off get rid off thepainted bits pictures unless you are doing a painting demonstration. They contribute nothing and could easily be placed on the website. Same thing with the basic builds. If you are not doing a fancey or even basic conversion leave it as an artical on the website.

Second The huge list of stores in it?Get rid of them. However keep any tournements or events that may be coming up, Even then keep it to one or two pages.


Thirdly Bring back more of afformentioned painting and converting articals.

Fourth KEEP It roughly 50/25/25 for the main systems. 50 for the flavor of the month though. NOT just the big seller.

That is really all i have to say about this......Oh and make the damn thing 3 to 5 dollars cheaper.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I would rather see a 40/25/25/10 The 10 percent covering one of the non main systems. How flipping awesome would it be to have Bloodbowl or another system in the WD again.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

The specialist games are a decent sized portion of the market that GW has ignore for too long. 

Space Hulk for instance... No clue why they dropped it. Look how quickly the limited edition box sold out. And it would be damned easy to make rules for other factions and heck.. anyone remember when WD use to have the cardboard punch out sections that were extra floor tiles or wargear cards etc?


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

We have a huge Blood Bowl league going on here and if they would expand on stuff I am sure we would buy it up as well.


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## BattleBrotherDithrick (Dec 20, 2009)

I never purchased a White Dwarf magazine but I can safely say after viewing some of its pages online and by borrowing a few from a friend of mine its quite annoying to see it mostly full of ads. In my opinion, it's probably never going away since GW has invested a lot of time and money into it. Seems like all that GW cares about these days are making money but I don't blame them.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

BattleBrotherDithrick said:


> Seems like all that GW cares about these days are making money but I don't blame them.


It's surprising how many people do blame them though. They are a company 1st and foremost, and a company needs to make money to survive. 


In fact, *I think that any advice we give GW has to be from an economic standpoint* or they just won't listen. There's always going to be people who are unsatisfied. As the saying goes..."you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." GW being a business, has to think as a business. That means we'll need to show them how it is of economic benefit to them to listen to our advice....



For me, it's not so much that they need to advertise less, it's *how* they advertise. My advice is to still advertise, just do it more creatively. 

Currently they flood their magazine with lots of color photos of nicely painted models and give us their prices, etc. Another, more imaginative, creative, and subtle way to advertise is to write a really cool fluff piece, come up with, play, and then write a battle report (with sweet graphics and pics) about it. 

They already do this. In fact they use both methods. The problem is...

#1.) people grow weary of all the direct adverts & are starting to not want to buy your magazine...

#2.) due to so many pages being used for direct adverts, you have less to use for creative, imaginative avenues such as batreps, fluff articles, scenarios, etc. 


By using creative methods GW would be...

#1.) giving the people what they want. If people want it, they'll buy it. If people want more of this content in WD, it makes good business sense for you to give it to them.

#2.) still advertising. At the end of an article, batrep, etc. that showcased the a new or old product you wanted to focus on, you could have a small asterisk at the bottom read: "*all GW models can be purchased online at www.games-workshop.com or at one of our many stores. See page ___ to find a store near you!"


This way we just have to endure one sentence of advertising that tells us all I need to know. The consumer is happy. GW is happy, etc. 


Spark our imaginations! Emerse us in the world we want to play a game in, and we will purchase your stuff. Less direct sales, and more of this. Think about it... your game systems are all about the imagination. Inspire us GW! Inspire us! Put more of the *creative* stuff in WD and we'll all be happy!  



As to the comments about including more of GW's specialty games in WD, I don't see that happening. The necessities of economics dictate how much resources a company can/should put where. I don't think this is GW being stingy or stupid, but rather focusing their attention on what sells. It's frustrating for those who like the specialty ranges, but they get sparing attention because they get sparing sales. It's easy for us on the sidelines to feel it should be one way, but we aren't seeing the sales numbers that GW sees. They haven't become as large and dominate in the table top gaming world (or even now competing in the software world) by being stupid.

Clearly the sales must not be there for those games. If they were, GW would support them more. GW seems to be content to merely maintain the games (i.e. keep manufacturing the old ranges, and from time to time do a short limited re-release/update as with space hulk, etc.). That can only be because GW is looking at sales indicators that we are unaware of. If they felt like they could get the same kind of money out of the specialty games as they do with 40K, WFB, & LotR, I'm 100% positive they would. 



For me, a more modest goal would be for them to more specifically target different countries. I'd like them to keep the lions share of the material the same for all WD's (regardless of country). I.e. if they're marketing DE this month, or Skaven, etc. they'll be doing it everywhere... so, they might as well keep all of that the same. This makes economic sense, and it's what they're doing already.

However, as has been mentioned different countries have different game systems they prefer, or more important to GW, that they're willing to purchase. While it isn't realistic to ask GW to include material in a WD about a product that doesn't sell worth beans in that country, it is realistic to say lets have the German WD team (who very minimally has to translate & re-format everything over into German, include store locations that are specific to Germany, include a piece at the front from the German editor, etc.) write up and include a sweet article or two about Blood Bowl. 

In this way, GW can take a small realistic step towards encouraging a product that sells well in a certain region. All the other countries teams that have a specific WD made for them can do the same. UK & other European White Dwarf's could have an extra article or two about LotR, while the U.S. can have way less LotR, and focus more on another 40k or WFB article, etc. 


*These two points taken together, would satisfy 90% of the comments I've seen made on this thread*... that, and of course looking for ways to reduce the cost of the magazine.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

^ This post should be stickied, titled - STFU Whiners! :laugh:

No, really.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Interesting... 

Did a bit of research and let me tell you, it is very hard to find articles on GW's sales of specific game systems. I did find this article on TMP web-magazine where they quote a Press Association Ltd. article from 2006... 




> Hot off the business press…
> 
> Further sales woe at Games Workshop
> 
> ...


For the full article you can go here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=62600



While the Press Association Ltd. article is hardly on the level of having this come from GW's website or an official GW investor report. It is at least more relevant than hearsay and opinions. 

It appears to back the advice I gave GW about WD and the LotR line in general for the U.S. (i.e. reduce to specialty game status). It also appears that the slide in sales for LotR is not just limited to the U.S. but across the board. It appears that according to GW the slide in LotR sales has been steadily decreasing since the bubble created by the last LotR movie, Return of the King, which came out in 2003.

If this report reflecting 2005/06 showed steady decline since 2003 (according to GW, because *"with no new films out, interest in the products declined"* ...it seems highly logical that the decline has continued as, (A.) in 2011 we are even farther from the 2003 release of Return of the King, and (B.) in that time there has been _*"no new films out."*_

It's possible GW's holding on until the hobbit comes out, but what then? After it creates a new bubble and that bubble (as history has shown) deflates? Maybe then GW will hear the people and reduce LotR to specialty games status and give WD back to what has consistently made them money. 40K and WFB 

...well, in the U.S. at least. :wink:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I believe the LotR films are being redone in 3D, for release in the next 24 months. The Hobbit will also be a duology...after those Specialist Games status would make a lot of sense, but LotR is still a recognisable brand, and good advertising in the shop window.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Thing is though, The Hobbit, will only be a skirmish game, as the book and therefore the movie, have no grand battles like LoTR, so it'll hardly a figure shifter. Interest may pick up again, but it's not really going to attract many new people.... 

Also, redoing LotR in 3D? Epic fail. We've all seen how terrible rendering a movie into 3d makes it.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> Thing is though, The Hobbit, will only be a skirmish game, as the book and therefore the movie, have no grand battles like LoTR, so it'll hardly a figure shifter. Interest may pick up again, but it's not really going to attract many new people....
> 
> Also, redoing LotR in 3D? Epic fail. We've all seen how terrible rendering a movie into 3d makes it.


Firstly the Hobbit has the battle of 5 armies. If that does not scream bg grand battle I am not sure what does. If the model range is decent it might tempt me back into LotR.

Secondly 3D has the potential to be good if done right. I mean look at Avatar and Tron: Legacy. What do you notice? That they were planned with 3D in mind and so looked good. The problem with 3D is that most companies think of it as an afterthought and because of this it sucks.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> I believe the LotR films are being redone in 3D, for release in the next 24 months.


Noooo! They just need to let the 3D thing rest. :laugh: 

I don't mind new movies, specifically filmed for it, using 3D but I'm going to get really grumpy if everyone jumps on the band wagon and starts to re-release every movie under the sun "now in 3D!" Oh... you know it's going to happen. Star Wars Re-re-re-re-released "now in 3D!!" George Lucas! You have enough of my money!





TheKingElessar said:


> The Hobbit will also be a duology


Sweet! I can't wait! It's taken them so long to sort this movie out. I hope it comes out before I die. Have they settled the "who has the rights to make it" dispute?





TheKingElessar said:


> ...after those Specialist Games status would make a lot of sense, but LotR is still a recognisable brand, and good advertising in the shop window.


Agreed, cause according to those sales figures in that 2006 article, they need to do something. :wink:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Don't know who's doing it.

You DO know Star Wars *IS* being remade in 3D, right?


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

The Axel Braun 3d starwars film you mean?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

all we need now is WD 3D, paying extra to get your ads more in your face, experience jervis johnsons moronic opinions in full mindnumbingly craptastic 3D


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> The Axel Braun 3d starwars film you mean?


I dunno, I dunno what that is. I heard Lucas was redoing them in 3D, that's all I got. TBH I have little intent to go see them in the cinema unless somebody else pays. Saw the films once, that'll do.

They're no Wrath of Khan.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Don't know who's doing it.
> 
> You DO know Star Wars *IS* being remade in 3D, right?


Noooooooo!!!

I checked... you're right! http://www.starwars.com/movies/saga/announce3d/index.html

I certainly won't be going to see them in the theater. Maybe when they get released to DVD... maybe... 





Stella Cadente said:


> all we need now is WD 3D, paying extra to get your ads more in your face, experience jervis johnsons moronic opinions in full mindnumbingly craptastic 3D


Yeah... that's what we need. WD 3D adds... and Jervis Johnson standard bearer in 3D!

I think we need to bury this thread lest GW sees this, and think it a great way to increase the price of their magazine by 15%. :laugh:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Didn't GW release Battle fo the 5 armies at some point? The hobbit will probably give a little more life to the whole WotR franchise.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

About 4 issues ago they did an amazing mag for the second wave releases of Daemon models.

They included really good fluff, pictures and just an all-round awesome product.

My main problems with the mag are:

1. Sooooo much advertising

2. Lord of the Rings, period. I can take entire issues devoted to Warhammer no problem, but that piece of crap, no way.

3. Fixed battle reports.

4. Price.

Overall it could be doing with alot of work. They'd probably just be better setting up a GW magazine site online to be honest, they'd even sell more products IMO.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

humakt said:


> Didn't GW release Battle fo the 5 armies at some point? The hobbit will probably give a little more life to the whole WotR franchise.


Yes, as a stand-alone game, iirc. A board game. :laugh:

I expect GW will see an upturn in new customers when interest is rekindled in those films...and 18 months after it starts to die down, either release a new Edition (partly dependant on number cranked out to take advantage of newbies) or put it in Spec Games range and be done with it.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> My main problems with the mag are:
> 
> 1. Sooooo much advertising
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more with your assessment. Minus the LotR, it seems like everyone on this thread is in 100% agreement. A few hold to keeping the LotR's in there, but not many...






TheKingElessar said:


> Yes, as a stand-alone game, iirc. A board game. :laugh:


It's still in the specialty game section (in the U.S. anyway). It's more of a epic armagedon/warmaster scale LotR miniature game. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1100084 



TheKingElessar said:


> I expect GW will see an upturn in new customers when interest is rekindled in those films...and 18 months after it starts to die down, either release a new Edition (partly dependant on number cranked out to take advantage of newbies) or put it in Spec Games range and be done with it.


I agree. They've invested too much in this to let it die too easily. My bet is that they hold out until the Hobbit, ride that wave, see if they can't do some things to revive the range, find out they can't the very long and hard way, and eventually over the pace of several years, slide it into a specialty game slot.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Uber Ork said:


> A few hold to keeping the LotR's in there, but not many...


just those of us who can count and realise 2 pages isn't a whole magazine.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> just those of us who can count and realise 2 pages isn't a whole magazine.


:laugh: Well, I've never read the UK WD so I wouldn't know, but since GW said (when they last changed WD's format) the majority of WD material would all be the same no matter the country... I'd imagine the U.S. WD isn't too far off from what you have. 

My January U.S. WD #372 is MIA for some reason, so here's the breakdown of #371

Minus direct adverts, store locations, and the useless Standard Bearer article...

40K = 29 pages
WFB = 23 pages
LotR = 23 pages

40K gets the win as there was still a bit of the wave left from DE having come out, but as you can clearly see (in the U.S. WD anyway) all things are split about evenly... or as I've already said multiple times. LotR takes up about 1/3rd of the U.S. WD.


This obviously changes when a new release hits the scene. 

For example. For 40K's latest release, the DE, in U.S. WD #370 the page count (minus all the same stuff as #371) looked like this...

40K = 47
WFB = 20
LotR = 5


However... it all balances out, because when War of the Ring: Battlehosts was released the WD page count (again minus the junk) looked like this...

40K = 6
WFB = 24
LotR = 44

...it all balances out to about 1/3rd of the U.S. WD goes to LotR just as I said.



So *Stella*... maybe we should switch WD's. You should buy the U.S. WD dwarf and increase your LotR page count substantially (if you would have had the U.S. WD detailing the Battlehosts release for example, you could have had 44 pages of LotR instead of just 2!), and I should subscribe to the U.K. WD and only have to endure 2 pages of LotR in each issue! That would be awesome! 

Want to trade? :laugh:


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## RIVALBLACKWELL (Dec 13, 2010)

I kinda like it...


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

RIVALBLACKWELL said:


> I kinda like it...


WD you mean? What do you like specifically?


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## steamius (Dec 9, 2010)

I like it when it had some sence in it....
I would like to see battle reports from big tournaments in it, painting tips from pros, maybe some contests.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I know a lot of effort goes into Battle Reports since they have to note everything but why not every once in a while without explanation have 2 random people from a random GW store play each other for a battle report. It could relate to the readers better, be less prone to bias and feature cool armies outside the studio's.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I know a lot of effort goes into Battle Reports since they have to note everything but why not every once in a while without explanation have 2 random people from a random GW store play each other for a battle report. It could relate to the readers better, be less prone to bias and feature cool armies outside the studio's.


Or have two GT winners, or showcase and batrep the 'ard boy championship, etc. Those things would be fun to see. I like where you're going with this. k:


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

It's just a shame that even if any WD staffers read this, any of these suggestions will never be taken on board 

I thought for a second about suggesting we start a magazine of our own but then realised that would never work... how do you write a magazine about the hobby without ever breaching copyright and getting a heavy-handed letter from GW?


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

TheReverend said:


> It's just a shame that even if any WD staffers read this, any of these suggestions will never be taken on board
> 
> I thought for a second about suggesting we start a magazine of our own but then realised that would never work... how do you write a magazine about the hobby without ever breaching copyright and getting a heavy-handed letter from GW?


Well if you didn't make any money off it you could do it (very similar to what these forums are... tactics, advice, fluff, photos, etc. ...just in a different format), but it's hard to put food on the table when you make no money.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The latest WD actually has a good tactica article in it for Dark Eldar, which is nice to see. Normally GW tactics are so totally divorced from real life as to be laughable, but in this case they seem to have got it fairly straight.

Just ignore everything about the Webway portal.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

i think they should put more emphasis on the modelling side of the hobby, and stop fannying around with the high elves and skaven! :laugh: more Astartes!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

White Dwarf may be doing poorly, but I think it has more to do with the LoTR crutch than ads. I think they need to bring up the content per month on Warhammer 40K, their big seller, and drop LoTR - possibly even cut the models ranges and book printings and retire the game.

Ideal WD: 75% WH40K, 25% WH. No LoTR junk.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> White Dwarf may be doing poorly, but I think it has more to do with the LoTR crutch than ads. I think they need to bring up the content per month on Warhammer 40K, their big seller, and drop LoTR - possibly even cut the models ranges and book printings and retire the game.
> 
> Ideal WD: 75% WH40K, 25% WH. No LoTR junk.


Disagree here. There is a following for LotR and whilst there is a substabtial interest then it will not be dropped anytime soon. The deadweight articles such as Jervis Johnson and the ads need to be cut.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

If you're trying to tell me LotR is selling anywhere near as well as WH40K or WH, you're just wrong. It's the biggest reason GW is hemorrhaging money.


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## vulcan539 (May 17, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> I would rather see a 40/25/25/10 The 10 percent covering one of the non main systems. How flipping awesome would it be to have Bloodbowl or another system in the WD again.


Agreed, I would love to see non-main systems, as I personally don't know much about them, but heard good things.

But to go back to lotr. I was specking to one of the staff at GW and they said it sold amazingly well in New Zealand, when the movies were being made. 
It out sold fantasy, and rivaled 40K over that time. 
But now its kinda neither hear nor there.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> If you're trying to tell me LotR is selling anywhere near as well as WH40K or WH, you're just wrong. It's the biggest reason GW is hemorrhaging money.


and the proof of that is?, other than just because you said so, or that your small group doesn't play it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

GW is NOT haemorrhaging money. The only Raging going on around here is me every time someone posts that bullshit.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I'll still buy it because it's a monthly fix.

However I could do with fewer ads and less LOTR (Just a personal thing)

I would add a gallery/army section as I love to look at pics for inspiration on painting/army comp. And what about sports pages at the back, some reports from tournaments/campaign weekends on what was common who won and why.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> and the proof of that is?, other than just because you said so, or that your small group doesn't play it.


:laugh: And thus it is that we have come full circle... again. 



Uber Ork said:


> Did a bit of research...


check it out... :laugh:


Man... some threads just need to die. :grin:


Although I am glad to see there are several more people who feel the way I do about LotR! :victory:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I read a couple of Fat Bloke edited ones last night...made me emo looking at today's rag.


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## jon1337 (Jan 18, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Let the Hobbyists write it rather than the businessmen, put back the scenery-making articles and bring back the White Dwarf Postbox. That was useful, that was. Now the only letters we get to read are the ones that Jervis puts in Standard Bearer and then doesn't write about. Support the Specialist Games and have a fairly balanced amount of space for each games system. Do fun or historically important (Battle for Macragge, Iyanden vs. Kraken etc.) Battle Reports. Then White Dwarf will be awesome once more.
> 
> Midnight



If this happened, I would subscribe


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

I wish WD would have a selection of articles in it, like it had before.

Not just articles about thier new releases. WD should have more of a balance of WHFB and 40k too.

WD needs to have more hobby based guides, so you know what to do once you have bought something and opened the box when you have got home.

Actually, just copy Fat Blokes style of mag. Why did they fix something that was not broken? :headbutt:

I don't mind a few ads as long as they're on a single page. I'm not a fan of the big 2 page epic army pictures either for that matter. Real Content > nice art direction.
Jervis and his 2 pages of guff need to go too.

LotR seems like filler to me, but only because I don't play it.

The only good thing about WD these days is that it has pretty art and pictures.

If they would only improve WD, then I am sure people would buy it more often. I know I would.


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## marcch (Apr 1, 2008)

It has become more of an advertising venue than anything else as of late. There are other modelling magazines that are more hobbiest driven and I guess I'll drop my subscription after this one's run it's course. Even more disturbing is that the latest issue was mailed to me with my address label pasted directly to the cover and it was not shipped in a protective sleeve. It was received in the condition of a weekly gossip rag! Very disgusting, especially at $10.00 a pop in Canada. I'm done with WD.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

considering that everything in the army is a GW product, then the whole thing is an advertisement and as such no aditional ads are needed


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## catacan (Nov 29, 2008)

i miss the days when you would get "Quirky" new unit rules that you could play with your mates or the local gw guys, made for some really entertaining weekends.
But these days they seem to spend too much time telling you how well their new box set units do in battle, rather than showing us ways of how to get more fun out the hobby.

I admit it is nice to see a good battle report but 3 per issue is abit much. Especailly when i have no interest in the likes of lotr etc, but i can't complain about that being there as its their product, but be nice if they had more input from "us, the consumer


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## Jubble (Jan 25, 2011)

I've just read through this whole thread, and have a few points. Taken a while to collect the relevant qoutes...

*Firstly - Jervis Bashing*



Stephen_Newman said:


> ...And will someone please assasinate Jervis friggin Johnson already! His standard bearer articles have already made the magazine 10x crapper as it is...





Doelago said:


> ...give Jervis 10 extra pages...





Doelago said:


> ...I actually quite enjoy the "Standard Bearers". By far one of the best parts in the magazine... :wink:





humakt said:


> ...Jervis is an annoying git. I really believe his whole goal in life is to destroy players who want to win anything. Still if it stops him actually writing rules...


I'm amazed to see that Jervis seems to be a bit like Marmite (UK reference - you either love him or you hate him). I'm definitely in the "love him" camp - Standard Bearer is the arcticle I look for first in a new copy of White Dwarf. And I hope he doesn't stop writing rules, as he is responsible for some of the best games GW have produced - BloodBowl being a prime example.

And who was it who said they should get Jervis's stand-in more often? Jervis's stand-in? You're talking about John Blanche! Yes, more of him, but as well as Jervis.

*Secondly - Different White Dwards in Different Countries*



bishop5 said:


> ...Let the fans send in stuff specifically for the mag to fill those pages; articles, tournament reports, painted models - they're still advertising GW product but a lot less in-your-face-buy-this-NOW...





Marneus Calgar said:


> ...I also think that getting people to actually send articles in would be great...





Uber Ork said:


> ... _*U.S. WD's*_ *U.S. WD's* only. *ONLY *U.S. WD's. *NOT* other countries WD's...





Uber Ork said:


> ...Well, I've never read the UK WD so I wouldn't know...


I spoke to the infamous Jervis at a Games Day a couple of years back, in particular to challenge about the fact that GW don't show the Golden Daemon statuette winners in the magazine anymore. What he said in reply astonished me. 

Apparently the White Dwarf content is the same everywhere - they have to make sure that the content is relevant in all countries. That would be why the latest White Dwarf shows the Slayer Sword winners round the world (including some that are not that good, and some that are absolutely amazing) rather than the placed entries from the UK (in the UK WD). It's only the few pages at the back are specific to your country.

I'd be very interested to hear whether anyone can verify or quash this.

And he also said that the reason they don't have a letters page is because they would have to cherry pick the positive letters and couldn't print anything negative about the hobby. That is better placed in the forums, he said. Do GW staff read or post in Heresy?

*Thirdly- content*



djinn24 said:


> ...How flipping awesome would it be to have Bloodbowl or another system in the WD again...


YES!

*Fourthly - GW profits*



Stormbrow II said:


> ...It might have done several years ago when the films were released because GW reached their 3 film sales targets within their first 2 years. After that the sales imploded - you can see this from one of GW's annual reports in the recent past where their profits fell from several million to £100k, which can only be considered disastrous for an MNC (Multi-national corporation)...





TheKingElessar said:


> GW is NOT haemorrhaging money. The only Raging going on around here is me every time someone posts that bullshit.


I understand their profits have been going up more recently, as they have streamlined the production process. They re-use more designs when doing more sculpting virtually, and make more plastic kits. These are cheaper to make, and sold at similar prices to the more labour intensive metal models, and so the profit is greater. My knowledge is maybe a year out of date, and partly from reading between the lines, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

*Fifthly - WD for advertising*



Caliban said:


> considering that everything in the army is a GW product, then the whole thing is an advertisement and as such no aditional ads are needed


Fully agree - and with earlier posts about us wanting to be inspired. Reading WD got me into the hobby, when there were loads of different systems in there (remember Paranoia?). More Golden Daemon entries to inspire, more modelling articles, more Jeremy Vetock with wacky campaigns.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

I repped you for this, although I don't agree 100% with you.

Never really was a Blanche fan, it was great back in the day but prefer others art now. 

WD/GW has a nasty side effect of brainwashing kids into if it ain't GW stuff then don't buy, meaning they miss out for a while on better or cheaper products. (Selling kids sand at that price ffs.)

This can be cured with time and exposure to forums.

I stopped buying WD years ago, but do randomly buy one every year or so.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

The Games Workshop website has a brand new article every single week day. That is something like 22 articles a month.

I haven't bought White Dwarf for years; I do flick through one now and then. I found my most recent one the other day and it was introducing Codex: Black Templars. 

Back in they day (and I mean well over 10 years ago) it was significantly better. This cannot be put down simply to their being no web alternative. Chapter Approved, Index Astartes, specialist games, etc.

The only thing it offers over other formats now is the highly dubious battle reports.

Can anyone remember that other Warhammer magazine, not Inferno; the one that had house rules with new special characters etc?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Jubble, you just earned yourself some rep.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

increaso said:


> Can anyone remember that other Warhammer magazine, not Inferno; the one that had house rules with new special characters etc?


Citadel Journal?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Viscount Vash said:


> Citadel Journal?


When was a magazine like that released? Hell, you old guys have experienced so much...


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

That ones a 1994, 1986 is the earliest date I have seen on one though. It stopped and started again at some point but I can't remember when.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Doelago...

I know it was out in the mid 90s to at least the early 2000s, that was where they used to publish Forge World models .

There was also Chapter Approved


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Thanks Doelago...


[Jumps back]

Wait, what? What have I done to earn the thanks of the mighty djinn24?


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Yup, Citadel Journal it was.

Good times.


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## Jubble (Jan 25, 2011)

Uber Ork said:


> Well if you didn't make any money off it you could do it (very similar to what these forums are... tactics, advice, fluff, photos, etc. ...just in a different format), but it's hard to put food on the table when you make no money.


I wonder whether it would be a goer to start a published, collaborative Heresy magazine? Online blogs and forums are fine, and great for immediate interaction and involvement, but nothing quite compares with the tactile feel of a printed magazine and the quality of images on the printed page. :scratchhead:

White Dwarf does miss the mark, I'm sure a collaboration online could do better.

:read:

There are plently of ventures out there that rely on collaborative input without paying people - Wikipedia, OpenOffice, Linux, Apache to name but a few. I'm sure people would clamour to get their particular article or miniatures or battle report or artwork into a Heresy magazine.

Am I barking? :crazy:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Jubble said:


> There are plently of ventures out there that rely on collaborative input without paying people - Wikipedia, OpenOffice, Linux, Apache to name but a few. I'm sure people would clamour to get their particular article or miniatures or battle report or artwork into a Heresy magazine.
> 
> Am I barking? :crazy:


Unless your magazine is going to feature articles about the latest celebs cellulite and bare all topless confessions of drug fueled footballer orgies you may as well pour your money into buying shares of my new company cashforpyrite ltd


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