# New to WFB



## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

Hello, I'm going to be starting a fantasy army soon. While I'm still trying to make the final choice between Lizardmen and WoC, I'm also trying to figure out if my idea for a mono Slaanesh WoC army will really work. 

I understand that you can use allies in WFB. In the book it says that Deamons of Chaos and WoC would be trusted allies. So I can just put some daemonettes in my list just as they are in the daemons book and they function normally except they can't use my battle standard reroll, correct? I like the idea of my Chaos lord being accompanied by an honor guard of daemonettes and having a seeker or two running around. On the other hand, would you (as my opponent) be OK with me running daemonette models as a unit of chosen/forsaken in my Slaanesh army?

I'm still on the fence between Lizards and WoC. One issue I'm seeing with Warriors is a potential weakness when I comes to magic. With Lizardmen I would plan to run a Slaan and a skink priest, so I know lack of magic would not be an issue. Will I find myself at a major disadvantage if I'm running just a single lvl.2 Sorc at 3000 pts.? Plus the restriction to only fire, death, and lore of Slaanesh worries me a little. One way I've thought to mitigate this is give my Sorc third eye of Tzeentch (Not Slaanesh I know, but gotta cut me a little slack on magic items, etc.). Is third eye a useful upgrade? Will it mitigate the spell restrictions I run into with access to only 3 lores?

I'd welcome any thoughts or comments you guys have. Thanks.


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

This is what i know. Me and my friend used to play fantasy and i would go for lizardmen and he would fight me with WoC. 

The WoC's armor is a huge advantage and their magic is good so don't worry about that would have killed me with lore of shadow if i hadn't dispelled them.

Lizardmen are the best at magic i went with lore of life to buff up my men and keep them alive against his chaos.

I am not sure about the Slaneesh thing but i don't think it would work out very well but it might. 

I vote lizardmen but i am biased. go for what you think is best


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Lore of metal rocks against WoC too.


I play both WoC and Lizardmen, and IMO, it all depends on what your play style would be in fantasy. 

Powerful-as-shit magic with some tough-as-nails soldiers handling those pesky survivors? Lizardmen.

Charging headlong into combat and more than likely winning that fight? WoC.

Badass Donosaurs? Lizardmen.

Armored Human Badasses? WoC.


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## Warsmith Drewgie (Oct 26, 2011)

You would definitely run into problems with only a level 2 in a 3000 point battle, and I don't think you can include just daemonettes as allies I think you would have to make a smaller daemon army (following all the restrictions like a general and core minimum) and have it ally with your warriors. As far as dealing with magic you could have a lord on a steed of slaanesh rush across the board (10" move 20" march) and try to take out their wizards in cc. I personally would choose Chaos over lizardmen but I'm kinda biased because I've been playing Chaos Warriors for about 12 years now. I tend to favor Tzeentch, but just because the +1 to ward saves is huge in the current edition. It helps with your parry and magic resistance. Chaos Warriors with hand weapon and shield having a 3+ armor and 5+ ward in cc is really nice. I do encourage you to build your army in whatever fashion inspires you though and learn how to make it work. I would try to add more wizards if at all possible the lore of slaanesh isn't bad and the lore of death has one of the best unit killer spells in the game. Try to include an infernal puppet on one of your spell casters and the hellcannon might be a nice addition (one of it's misfire results is all wizards on the board immediately suffer a miscast, and the infernal puppet allows you to modify all miscast rolls by d3 so you can make your own less devastating and make your opponents worse. Not to mention it fires like a stone thrower but is str 5(10) instead of 3(9). Best of luck to you either way, and remember the Chaos gods are always watching so choose wisely :wink:


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Generally allies are only allowed in team battles and in special tourney settings. Otherwise, one cannot employ allies (or dogs of war) anymore in an army list. 

WoC currently suffer from an older army book and more limited options (unless allowed to use special characters) but are still an above average army and have some strengths in 8th edition. Their weaknesses are a lack of shooting and absence of good war machine hunting units. The high cost per model limits the number of characters and models in the army. Thus, this army plays best at 2500 points and above. But the army has a number of playable and competitive core, special and rare units such that you can change the army around for interest. The ability to put marks of chaos on units is huge, but the slaanesh mark would not be a first choice except for units prone to panic tests that one wants to keep cheap. Tzeentch and Khorne are the two most commonly used and cost efficient marks for units and characters. 

Lizardmen are one of the more flexible all-around armies. Right now, it is the top-ranked army in the Indy GT's in our area based on average win/loss and average battle points over dark elves and skaven. The Slann is one of the best characters and the best wizard in the game both offensive (focused rumination) and defensive (becalming). The oldblood can be played if one doesn't max out the Slann is a very tough and effective fighting lord. Saurus are above average core infantry. Temple Guard are above average special ranked infantry but a bit expensive. A TG unit allows the Slann to hide in the second rank and still cast spells and the TG unit remains stubborn. You have excellent scouts with poisoned shooting in chameleon skinks and poisoned shooting with skink skirmishers. Poisoned shooting skirmishers can march and shoot at will and reform as needed and can wound and kill tougher units when rolling 6's to hit. You have annoying shooting and divertion units in skink skirmishers. Salamanders have the ability to decimate rank and file units and can march and shoot. Two units of two salamanders can ravage an opposing army with a lot of rank-and-file infantry. The stegadon is one of the better monsters in the game (but too vulnerable to cannon shots and pit of shades) and still playable with a skink priest making it an engine of the gods. The biggest issues are the low initiatives of rank and file troops and stegs and lower-than-ideal weapon skill for rank and file units. IF there is 8th edition rules terrain, then this army has advantages with aquatic units and with skirmish units.


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

All in all, I love my Lizards more than I do playing Warriors of Chaos, even though I do love the idea of Slaanesh Warriors.

This is because Lizards are really good at working together as a coherant force and out-doing the enemy with teamwork. So for example, you can have stubborn character/unit to hold an enemy assault before responding with a flank charge with a Stegadon or hit an enemy with a Toughness de-buff and burn them to the ground with salamanders. 

Having said that, Warriors are definitely easier to play and start with exactly because they don't need much in the way of support. That unit of Frenzied warriors with Halberds *will* tear that unit of spear-elves to bloody ribbons, and you know that a Hellcannon shot in the middle of a unit of Knights will most likely kill a few of them. The reason I don't like them is (Perhaps because Chaos worshippers tend to be selfish fellows) they tend to rely on their own merits and not the support of their fellow units, which doesn't feel as fun to play. On top of that, even Tzeench magic lacks a certain oomph! that Lizardmen have in spades.

As far as Slaanesh warriors go, I don't think I would feel good about playing Daemonette models as Chosen, because Chosen are actually STRONGER than daemons! However heads and claws are all good potential bitz for warriors, and it would make sense for some of Slaanesh's most favoured warriors to recieve a few questionable "gifts". I always envisioned a Slaanesh army as one being armoured in beautifully gleaming silver armour and white silk cloaks, as they would never allow their armour to get dirty!


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

Yeah I figured the WoC wouldn't be as strong with just Slaanesh. Basically I want to do a semi-competitive (so I'll still take hellcannons for instance) version of Sigvald's host. So I would be using him most of the time. If I wanted the daemons I guess I would have to get a herald (general) and at least 3 units of other daemons to ally with my Warriors? Sounds OK to me. 

I may very well go with Lizards first. I'd still welcome more comments on the differences.


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## Warsmith Drewgie (Oct 26, 2011)

As olderplayer pointed out generally allies are only allowed in team battles however it depends on who you game with. I know in friendly games, the people I game with are cool with bending the rules for the purpose of a cool themed army provided you're not just trying to cheese away your armies inherent disadvantages. I wish I could help more with comparison for you but my knowledge of Lizardmen is limited because I've never played them and haven't faced them since 6th edition.


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Not exactly, a fluffy Slaanesh army would be very good at attacking leadership, which is what CW's do very well. For example you could bring a BSB with the Doom Totem (A Slaanesh Doom Totem would be a cool model!) and a pair of hellcannon. That's -2 to whatever panic checks are caused. 

On top of this you could have a character with Diabolic Splendour causing Terror or spam casting Hell Shriek, and leave the enemy with very little chance. With all of this stuff, there's a fairly good Slaaneh army to be had.


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

I think I'm going to end up going with the Lizards. Slaanesh will have to wait for later.

I have a biasic idea of what I want to run, my goal for general list building will be 3k. Is it smart to take a lvl2 skink priest in addition to my Slaan? I also like the idea of a block of skinks with 3 Kroxigors. Would a unit like that fair well against Ogres and WoC? I've heard good things about chameleon skinks. Will two units of 6 be enough to distract some enemy units, or should each unit be at least 10 strong?

One last thing. Saurus in units of 25 or 30? I'm planning on running them 6 wide.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Lizards are top tier right now and you will learn all aspects of the game with Lizards. 8th edition is proving to be surprisingly balanced, so no army is an autowin or loss against Lizards. You still have to play well to win. My son (16) plays Lizardmen and went 4-1 at the largest Indy GT in our region (Lone Wolf in Dallas) and at a smaller Indy GT in September. We have a few associates/friends that are doing very well with Lizards at top tourneys (including two wins in Indy GTs this year in our region) that are not comped (sportmanship is considered) or lightly comped. 
1. A Lvl 2 skink priest is very common because the lore of heavens is actually very useful for lizards and you can carry a magic defense or offense item such as a dispel scroll, cube of darkness (dispel scroll and ends the magic phase and dispels all RIP spells on a 4+), diadem of power (allows you to save a power die and carry it over to dispel die in next magic phase), Ixti Grubs (allows you to add +3 to the casting result after you have rolled to avoid a failed casting attempt), or plaque of tepok (allows one additional spell for the priest). It also can run (M6) and hide effectively in a unit of skink skirmishers or skrox. The signature spell of heavens is extremely useful for lizards (sometimes do not have great weapon skill and can help nerf a strong opposing shooting unit), the no. 1 spell is huge (re-roll all 1's to hit, wound, and armour saves) especially with the high armour saves of saurus and temple guard units, the no. 3 spell is very effective (enemy unit re-roll 6's to hit, wound, and armour saves) especially against enemy units with poison or needing 5's and 6's or wound T4 to T6 LM models, and the no 5 spell comet is really good against units bunkered (against gun line armies) and can really devastate enemy formations that are moved in blocks.
2. Some players like a skrox unit with 3 or 4 krox and a lot of skinks. It is a fun and interesting mixed unit. The javelins of the skinks are quick to strike (allowing stand and shoot at charging models) and have poison (allowing autowounds when rolling 6's to hit) but skinks have terrible weapons skill and toughness. Thus, this is best used as a flanking/steadfast unit with a lot of cheap skinks (you have to have 8 skinks per Krox otherwise one would run a unit with six skinks and 3 krox). It is fast (M6) and can remain steadfast with the large number of cheap skinks. The mixed ranks rules basically can allow the Krox to add two ranks to the unit and allows the Krox to not be attacked in combat but able to attack back from the second rank of the unit. The skinks take the wounds while the Krox hit hard. The shields at least give the skinks a minimal armour save and a parry save when fighting to the front. By themselves, Krox are not points efficient relative to other comparable monstrous infantry. Either their points cost should be reduced at least 5 points (compared with chaos ogres with great weapons and chaos armour) or up to 10 points (compared with ironguts in the new army book) but they do get cold blooded leadership (LD test on 3 dice but only count lowest two) and the aquatic rule occasionally is very handy if people put rivers and ponds on the battlefield (as they should in 8th edition). 
3. Saurus are good infantry but only average for points costs. They have S4 and T4 and two attacks each but only have WS 3 (low for elite infantry) and I 1 (means attack after all but ASL models; and vulnerable to initiative tests from like pit of shades). 
4. My son has found that these models are best in a unit with a champion and an oldblood at 2500+ games. He gives the oldblood crown of command to make the unit stubborn, gives the oldblood armour of destiny (heavy armour and 4+ ward save) or other heavy armour plus a re-rollable max armour save, and often gives the oldblood a magic weapon. With the 4+ scaly skin armour, an oldblood with heavy armour (must choose magic armour because only light armour is in the army book) or dragonhelm with light armour and a shield gets a 1+ armour save. An S5, T5 character with a 1+ AS and 4+ ward save (or re-rollable armour save as long as one avoids killing blow and weapons that ignore armour saves) is a very tough and points efficient hombre. In order to fit this model in the army, he cuts down the cost of the Slann by running only two disciplines (becalming and focused rumination) and using Plaque of Tekok to get an extra spell. At 3000 points, he can run a fully loaded Slann and oldblood. One trick he found against deathstar units is to run the oldblood with crown of command in a single model wide unit of saurus and either take challenges with the oldblood or initially put the champ in the first rank (it will die and then the oldblood makes way to the front). That forces the opposing unit to limit its attacks to the champ if no challenge or the oldblood (limited to the challenge) and allows the unit, if in range of the bsb, to remain stubborn and tie up an enemy unit that would theoretically beat the saurus unit almost indefinitely with re-rollable cold blooded LD tests on LD 8, 9, or 10. 
5. Temple Guard are expensive (both because of GW pricing) and in terms of their points cost but are under-rated. They should generally only be played with a Slann


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

cont.
TG are basically Saurus with better AS (3+ against shooting and magic missiles, 4+ in combat), +1 WS, and +1 I (still low at I2 but can at least fight equal to ogres) and with halberds in combat (gives them S5 hits in combat which makes a big difference in combat especially in cutting the armour save). Also, they can take a magic standard. With the Slann, they become stubborn and generally with cold blooded LD of the slann and slann BSB must be killed to the last model and don't break. In order to make this unit fully effective, you really should commit to it (unit size of at least 26 and ideally as many as 36 TG with the Slann filling 4 slots with its base to make the unit effectively 6 x 5 or larger) and the lore of life on the slann giving the unit flesh to stone and skink priest giving the unit protection with hexes and augments makes the unit almost impossible to beat. 

6. Chameleon skinks are essential if you expect to see war machines. They have a -2 BS effect when shot at and have excellent poisoned shooting that allows them to kill war machines and tough monsters and troops at range (especially if poor armour saves). I'm seeing skaven gutter runners and lizardmen chameleon skinks being run as much as 3 units of 6 or two units of 10 each. The ability to march and shoot and free reform as skirmishers is huge and makes it hard to run down this unit. If a skaven player pays 50% more for a unit of gutter runners with poison and slings (slings have 18" range as compared with 12" range of blowpipes but ch skinks have better effective leadership and are slightly less likely to panic and run away because they are cold blooded) that should tell you how good the cham. skinks are in terms of points efficiency. 

7. Small units of skink skirmishers are points efficient to harass, bait and flee and march and shoot. The ability to march and shoot and reform as needed allows them to get into positions to shoot with poisoned shooting tough models and get in the way of units to delay combat or pull them out of position is invaluable. 

8. Salamanders if run in packs of two or three are incredibly effective against the larger, rank and file infantry models typically seen in 8th edition. They move fast (M6), are tough (T4 and 5+ AS), and can fight if charged (S5, I4, WS3) and the handlers will take some wounds from ranged attacks and impact hits (one-third allocated to handlers) without altering the effectiveness of the unit until the last hander in the unit is lost. Despite being only S3, flame template can hit and kill a lot of T3 and T4 infantry and cuts through the armour save (-3 to armour save). 

If you do not run the oldblood and choose not to spend extra points on the Temple Guard, then an effective army is the "ghost" Slann with the slann having the crown of command and four disciplines (soeme combo of rumination-almost always and unfair to the point that some comp systems limit this to two dice generated per offensive magic phase, mystery-knows all spells, becalming-incredibly effective magic defense, soul of stone-important if not lore or life and without cupped hand to re-roll miscasts to avoid blowing up, higher state-mundane attacks are ignored which is the primary reason for the term "ghost" Slann, and unfathomable presence-effectively gives 2+ ward to most magic attacks on the slann and 4+ ward to most magical attacks on the unit). Also, the special rules allow the Slann to take magic items and a magic banner and be both the general and the BSB. Thus, the standard of discipline (+1 to LD) is very commonly taken with the Slann as the general and BSB.


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks for the tips. I posted my army list here. I'd appreciate any advice people have on it.


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