# New take into the Traitor Legions



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I got a little incite into what Graham thought about the remaining traitor legions being talked about in the Heresy via email. Ones like the World Eaters and the Iron Warriors. I think this new take will be interesting and new to the Heresy. Especially since all the traitor legions seemed to try to do the right thing.



> And, you know, I’m not sure some Legions should be made tragic or likeable, some – like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters – should simply be murderous bastards, who embrace evil because they were flawed to begin with perhaps. Having done Thousand Sons and Emperor’s Children in a sympathetic light, two legions who fell through trying to do the right thing, I think it’d be fun to do one who falls because they’re just bad to the bone...


-Graham McNeill

I'm not sure what the other BL authors think about these legions. But it is an interesting concept. I like the idea of trying to find some _soft part_ to these legions but another approach would be interesting, as Graham McNeill has shown how the Iron Warriors behave post heresy. 

Even the Night Lords for example; though their tactics "flawed" to the ideals of the Imperium have shown reason and some sympathy towards. What do you heretics think?


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I agree with him. While it is good to be able to empathize with at least some of the traitor legions, some especially the World Eaters, should fall due to their inherent blood lust. They were already knocking on Khorne's door before Erebus manipulated the Warmaster and by extension Angron. Some Traitors you _should_ hate or despise for being what they had to be. While turning Horus's fall into a tragedy where you cared about the character helped build that empathy with the traitors as a whole, some are just jumping on the bandwagon due to their own flaws.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Iron Warriors Index Astartes article makes reference to the Iron Warriors eventually becoming so bitter that they actually began not only to enjoy to the killing and murdering after the tedium of garrisoning fortresses and siege warfare, but to lust after it. This culminated in the Cleansing of Olympia where they massacred their own homeworld.

I think ultimately the Iron Warriors did just become bitter and murderous bastards. But there was still an extent of manipulation involved in their downfall. Lorgar's hand in the rebellion on Olympia, Horus continuing to use the Iron Warriors as the 'Garrison Legion' thereby nurturing bitterness in Perturabo, Et cetera. The Iron Warriors are going to be portrayed in the Heresy-era as cold, bitter, murderous bastards that we won't sympathise with as much as we have with the Thousand Sons or Emperor's Children? Sounds good to me. 

Although Rob Sanders is the first author who is going to tackle the Iron Warriors Heresy-era. We'll see how they are portrayed in _The Iron Within_.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats some real good speculation CotE. If Graham McNeill does decide to write the novel for the Iron Warriors, I believe he will make him such. But maybe not. We will see. Especially since another author will be basically giving us an introduction for them. The World Eaters short story though not to the extent of the other traitor legions written about, had something that destroyed their primarch to a level that "flawed" him. 

That sympathy part is really just shown by how well the writers are able to portray their characters in the story. Even ADB was able to create good characters made it hard for people to feel bad for the Word Bearers. Instead people had to really look into the story to understand why the Word Bearers were a tragic legion. I'd like to see some humanity from Perturabo fall apart. That part would make the story great in my opinion. In Angron's case it was the destruction of his honor and brotherhood.


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## Chaosveteran (Aug 29, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Thats some real good speculation CotE. If Graham McNeill does decide to write the novel for the Iron Warriors, I believe he will make him such. But maybe not. We will see. Especially since another author will be basically giving us an introduction for them. The World Eaters short story though not to the extent of the other traitor legions written about, had something that destroyed their primarch to a level that "flawed" him.


I think it's a great new take on Heresy and personally can't wait to read about the 'bitter' leagions (and this has nothing to do with the fact that my start of warhammer 40k was from Night Lords, followed by Iron Warriors, and then World Eaters, clsoely followed by Black Legion :grin

In addition, specifically Iron Warriors and World Eaters, they were actually wronged by the Emperor so I think they wanted to join Horus - Iron Warriors being always rated second-best when compared to Imperial Fists and always being put down, hence the bitterness; and World Eaters' bitterness starting through Angron's first meeting with the Emperor where he was whisked away at the turning point of his winning battle.

By the way, they WE short story you mentioned - where can I find it / whats the title?


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Its in the Tales of Heresy book in the Horus Heresy


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The title is De'shea


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Aaaahh yeah After De'shea, I couldn't remember the damn name


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Hmmm. Idk. It seems like Mr. McNeill is being a bit mysterious about it for now. He makes it sound as if those legions are very plain. But like _Child-of-the-Emperor_ said evidence suggests they are more than that. It could also be that Mr. McNeill actually believes the Iron Warriors and the World Eaters are just plain bad. But I could see that within all his earlier works on Honsou and the Iron Warriors. 

I don't really think McNeill fits the part to write the heresy novel for the Iron Warriors. Its like Anthony Reynolds and the post heresy Word Bearers. I personally don't think his view on them does well preheresy. I personally think that ADB was the perfect fit for the Heresy Novel. 

No offense for McNeill but I think the Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Night Lords all need to be represented in the light of the Imperium. Even if it is a bit difficult. His approach to the Iron Warriors is plain. Cold Ruthless killers. Thats fine now that they are chaos. But the thing is they were something completely different preheresy. I think that in Index Astartes with the Iron Warriors in it said something about Perturabo joining the Emperor as being one of the easiest. Or at least it describes it as being easy. Also his commitment to the Imperium seems very strong. It seems like it was basically his struggle to hold and do the necessary things that tore him and his legion to being what they are.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I would love to know more about the fall of the Death guard, World eaters and Iron Warriors. I am up to tales of heresy so far, and pertuarbo has had only one or two lines of dialog in the series, and that was at the end of fallen angels (I read it straight after descent of angels). His character as far as I am aware just hasn't had any expansion, and it seems that he just fell as he didn't like rogal dorn. 

It never gave us a true reason in flight of the eisenstein (sp) why Mortarion chose to follow horus other than brotherly love. 

Also angron I doubt was hard to convince, I bet all horus said was 'if you join me I will let you kill without restraint'. But I still want to know more about his legion and what happened to them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> His approach to the Iron Warriors is plain. Cold Ruthless killers. Thats fine now that they are chaos. But the thing is they were something completely different preheresy.


That's the thing though, they weren't. As the Great Crusade progressed the Iron Warriors as a Legion grew increasingly bitter to the point where they simply became cold-hearted murderers. They weren't able to express that bitterness and anger through sanctioned behaviour like the Night Lords were for example. It was bottled up and repressed until it slowly began to seep out; they began to simply enjoy all the killing and carnage, not because they saw it as necessary for the progression of the Great Crusade, but simply for the base acts of murder and death. This bitterness ultimately culminated in the massacre of Olympia, which sealed their fate not only as cold-hearted murderers, but as traitors as well.



raider1987 said:


> Also angron I doubt was hard to convince, I bet all horus said was 'if you join me I will let you kill without restraint'. But I still want to know more about his legion and what happened to them.


The concept of Angron joining Horus simply for the unrestrained freedom was mused upon by Corax in _Raven's Flight_. I think it's a very interesting concept which would only benefit from further exploration in ADB's next Heresy novel.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

...i reject the notion that characters -need- to be sypathized with...not only do you invite repetition in the stories its also very unrealistic...very often the -hated- character in any given story is interesting precicely because he is so unlikable...just as you want to see good guys prevail..you -want- to see bad guys do horrible things...

...the World Eaters have to be the most brutal of all the Legions...Lobotomization isnt extreme...its fuckin do-lally out of the fucking ball park insane..these guys are the nihilist serial killers of the 41st century who, if they cant find anyone else to kill, they kill themselves...should -anyone- really be made to "sympathize" with that? lol...it would be a fucking AWESOME read though!

:blackeye:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well I guess that brings up some other questions. Where the primarchs born perfect and molded to what they were during 30,000k or were some just born flawed to begin with.

I'm more with the first one. I believe the primarchs were perfect creations of the Emperor and the tainted planets the chaos gods brought them too made them who they are. So there is some history to Perturabo that makes his personality and legion what it is. In _The First Heretic_, we see how the primarchs got to the planets they got too. And even the daemon when asked whether they were flawed said they weren't. They were perfect and for that reason chosen to be "the chosen" for chaos.

I don't like the idea of "pure evil" primarchs. I like the line Senator Palpatine said when he said "good is a point of view." This is shown in 40k. There are two sides to every race and team in the 40k world. Even Chaos. You can't just say chaos is evil. Because its not. Its basically a creation of peoples thoughts and emotions. There must be a side in which some... people can relate too. The same with the primarchs. To say this or that primarch is just plain evil is just to simplistic. Of course they are. All the traitor primarchs are plain evil. Look what they became! They are extreme perversions of what they where. But they weren't born that way. I think the word "sympathy" is being used too much. Theres got to be a better word to explain the relationship of the primarch to the readers. And its not like the same book is being written over again. Every legion and primarch had a certain personality, and aspect to them that was pushed to the extreme.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think the word "sympathy" is being used too much. Theres got to be a better word to explain the relationship of the primarch to the readers.


Empathy.

You understand what they are feeling but it doesn't mean you feel sorry for them or approve of what they are doing.

Like a thief. You understand that he steals because he is poor and desperate and can understand where he is coming from, but you don't approve of how he is going about rectifying his woes.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

its the old heredity vs environment arguement...were they born that way?...or did thier environment shape them?...a case could be made for either...ultimately they are "human" after all and as we all know...nobody is perfect...not even the Emperor!...if they were perfect there is no way Chaos could sway any of them to any degree...perfection is one complete idea..its "perfect" so it cannot be deviated from...Tyranids are more closely related to "perfection" than any mortal/immortal man...in the end 40k -is- about humanity...how it survives and how, no matter how far into the future you go, Humanity -still- has its shortcomings...

..."Sympathy" and "Empathy" are basicaly two degrees of the same idea...

:wink:


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

I empathise with Angron, especially after reading after D'shea. Angron is quite honorable to people he meets in combat, in so far as he respects the willingness to fight and put their lives on the line. What he dispises people he considers to be dishonourable who do the fighting from afar like the "High-riders" and the Emperor.

To people like that, HE BEHAVES JUST LIKE THE SPACE WOLVES AND BLOOD ANGELS: Mercilessly violent.

My issues with Angron stem from the after battle massacres and out of combat atrocities.

All the Space Marines do what they do (spar with each other in combat cages/pits) only thing is the WE do not "spar" they fight and mean it.

Yes it is terribly wasteful, but they gain honour from the combat itself, not from the victory or the conquest, those things are meaningless to them.

Khorne is after all the god of Honour/Martial Ability as well as battle and blood.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Tyrannus said:


> Empathy.
> 
> You understand what they are feeling but it doesn't mean you feel sorry for them or approve of what they are doing.
> 
> Like a thief. You understand that he steals because he is poor and desperate and can understand where he is coming from, but you don't approve of how he is going about rectifying his woes.


Yes, the word I have forgetten. I feels like haven't heard the word in forever.

I don't buy Graham McNeills take of how some legions or primarchs are just flawed. Because, so many chapters and even legions had flaws in their geneseed but still remain loyal to the Imperium.


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