# Lion El'johnsons Loyalties(Spoiler Alert)



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

Jus finished reading Fallen Angels...It seems to point that the Lion may not be as loyal to the imperium as he makes out, he hoarded the books from the lupus knights library and apperently turns over the captured seige engines to the iron warrors....so what is it...is the lion loyal or traitor?


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Well you gotta understand really only the Imperiums forces are strictly loyal to the Emperor. The Space Marines, especially those from the certain chapters or legions are more dedicated to their own ends and means, hence why eventhough they get the psycho-conditioning they are still capable of falling under the allure of Chaos. I don't even visualize Space Marines as fully loyal to the Emperor but more of a pantheon of gods with the same goal in mind


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I think you need to re-read it again. The story is based after Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron have been revealed as traitors but before the force sent to defeat Horus arrives at Istavaan. It is only after the relief force arrives at Istavaan that the other traitor legions are revealed. 

The Lion gave Perturabo the weapons to help AGAINST Horus (not knowing that Perturabo is on the traitors side). If Lion El'Johnson had wanted to side with Horus then why would he have risked his life in trying to stop Horus gaining access to the uber siege engines?


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

If anyone has read Angels of Darkness (excellent read) the fallen that Boreas is interigating tells him that the Lion never picked a side. He waited to see who would be victorious, it seems very true as well. He arrives at Caliban instead of going to the Emperor's side. The speculation is that all primarchs are affected by their home worlds. The Lion came from the jungles of Caliban he grew up in the presents of the beasts and lurked in the shadows struggling for survival. 
He was waiting to see who would win, take the side of the victor and assure his survival. It also refrences that after he took control of the Legion, he didn't trust any chapter that wasn't raised from Caliban and replaced them sending them back to Caliban or seeign them destroyed through combat. The last act that questions the Lion was his disreguard for the citizens of the Empire of Man, he would hav let the Orks slaughter thousands of people he could protect. The Lion seems to have the mentality of a predator, chooseing the easiest meal. 
It seems possible that he isn't far from Chaos.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Death Shroud said:


> I think you need to re-read it again. The story is based after Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron have been revealed as traitors but before the force sent to defeat Horus arrives at Istavaan. It is only after the relief force arrives at Istavaan that the other traitor legions are revealed.
> 
> The Lion gave Perturabo the weapons to help AGAINST Horus (not knowing that Perturabo is on the traitors side). If Lion El'Johnson had wanted to side with Horus then why would he have risked his life in trying to stop Horus gaining access to the uber siege engines?


To Cover his Butt, so he could just side with the winner.


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## Medic Marine (Jun 28, 2009)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> To Cover his Butt, so he could just side with the winner.


There you have it, the Primarch of the First Legion is nothing more than seeing to his own ends. It would appear that the Lion organized everything to his benifit.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Death Shroud said:


> I think you need to re-read it again. The story is based after Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron have been revealed as traitors but before the force sent to defeat Horus arrives at Istavaan. It is only after the relief force arrives at Istavaan that the other traitor legions are revealed.
> 
> The Lion gave Perturabo the weapons to help AGAINST Horus (not knowing that Perturabo is on the traitors side). If Lion El'Johnson had wanted to side with Horus then why would he have risked his life in trying to stop Horus gaining access to the uber siege engines?


hahaha. i dont think he should unless he really wants to. that book was alright but reading that thing again might be a drag. the thing is... we still dont really know the great lion's deal. for a couple instances, why the heck did he abandon his astartes and not talk to them again... was perhaps the greatest strategist easily manipulated in giving those great weapons to the iron warriors? Some questions are still unanswered. The great Lion seems to be very effective at outcomes from situations and to underestimate these couple things seems almost unconcievable. but who knows. there probably will be some crazy turn about.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

Medic Marine said:


> If anyone has read Angels of Darkness (excellent read) the fallen that Boreas is interigating tells him that the Lion never picked a side. He waited to see who would be victorious, it seems very true as well.


One very important fact to bear in mind is that the Fallen Angel that Boreas interrogated is none other than Astelan. The same Astelan is in Fall of Angels who sides with Luther and helps kill the (loyal to the Emperor) Librarian. Taking the words of someone who was totally played by Luther (who in turn was manipulated by chaos) at face value would be a mistake.

To my mind the greatest failing of The Lion is not a desire to sit on the fence and await an outcome (we only have the opinion of Astelan who was not with The Lion and so does not know of the events on the Forgeworld) but a failing in his ability to understand others. 

The Lion's love of secrecy breeds suspicion, misunderstanding and mistrust. Nemiel touches on the fact that The Lion spent so much time alone in the forest that he is not as comfortable or as good at understanding people as the likes of Luther or his brother Primarchs.

Luther's jealousy almost made him allow the death of his Primarch. If the Lion was aware of this then the fact that he did not kill Luther speaks volumes. He was betrayed by his dearest friend, can you blame him for sending him away and avoiding the difficulty of having to see him again and deal with his betrayal.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Having just finished the book it seemed to come across that the Lion was not so much sitting on the fence but trying to secure himself a position once Horus was dealt with. He really didn't seem to understand just how powerful Horus was becoming. He seemed to think that the Heresy would be dealt with quickly by those still loyal to the Emperor and that he would be able to gain the position of Warmaster.
The Lion's major failing and weakness was his inabillity to read people, all he knew was warfare, tactics but not stratergy.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

see i thought that at first but im very surprised he wasn't able to predict Perturabo's alliegence. He must have known the degragation his chapter had fallen throughout the years and finnally to be rejected from defending the walls of terra. Maybe he really made a mistake, but as far as i can see he has been very good at predicting such outcomes including what i think is going back on the planet of caliban. i thought it purley coincidental that every distrustful person he put back in caliban. I think he knows something is up... and his alligence might still be in question.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

have only just started reading fallen angels but i couldnt help myself and flipped to the back of the book. so ive read the convo with the lion and perturabo and from what i can make of it the lion was securing as place on both sides. if perturabo was in the the emp then giving him the seige guns to destroy horus would have given him favour with the imperium if they win. but if perturabo was in with horus then he had secured them some powerful weapons and the lion would have been in with them. the way it was written and what we know of the lions ability to plan then it fits quite well in with old fluff in that the lion was sitting at on the fence and was helping himself whoever won. 

the lion is a cunning sod for having this plan but im not sure why he would have gone and totally destroyed caliban because luther turned to chaos when he was having the same thoughts possibly in the future. quite intriguing if you ask me.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> have only just started reading fallen angels but i couldnt help myself and flipped to the back of the book. so ive read the convo with the lion and perturabo and from what i can make of it the lion was securing as place on both sides. if perturabo was in the the emp then giving him the seige guns to destroy horus would have given him favour with the imperium if they win. but if perturabo was in with horus then he had secured them some powerful weapons and the lion would have been in with them. the way it was written and what we know of the lions ability to plan then it fits quite well in with old fluff in that the lion was sitting at on the fence and was helping himself whoever won.
> 
> the lion is a cunning sod for having this plan but im not sure why he would have gone and totally destroyed caliban because luther turned to chaos when he was having the same thoughts possibly in the future. quite intriguing if you ask me.



Key is Luther wasn't the evil one :victory:


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Having just finished the book it seemed to come across that the Lion was not so much sitting on the fence but trying to secure himself a position once Horus was dealt with. He really didn't seem to understand just how powerful Horus was becoming. He seemed to think that the Heresy would be dealt with quickly by those still loyal to the Emperor and that he would be able to gain the position of Warmaster.
> The Lion's major failing and weakness was his inabillity to read people, all he knew was warfare, tactics but not stratergy.


That's how I read it too. I think Perturabo's allegiance to the Emperor was not in doubt at this point. Perturabo always followed orders unquestioningly but then brooded on them afterwards. Perturabo would have appeared to be one of the most loyal of the Emperor's Primarchs (and if he and the Emperor communicated better he may have not turned traitor!)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Its obvious to me that the Lion is loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium - It is revealed that he was jealous of Horus' appointment to the position of Warmaster and he believed it would have been better for the Imperium and humanity if he got that role. 

He uses the Heresy as an excuse to oust Horus and tries to forge alliances with his brother Primarchs (an example being giving the siege guns to Perturabo) so that they would support him becoming Warmaster when Horus was defeated (which seemed inevitable at the outbreak of the heresy, what was it 3 or 4 legions against the rest?!)

In this he is acting selfishly and ultimately against the interests of the Imperium (by giving Horus 6 Super-Weapons) and his father. 

Apart from that he knew about the taint on Caliban and seems to have completley abandoned his home. we are still not fully aware of his reasons for banishing Luther, Zahariel and the rest back to Caliban. But you can fully understand there rebellion against the Lion who has seemingly abandoned his friends and his home.

Apart from that though i would say with 100% certainty that he is loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. His methods are just wrong!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i think thats a way of looking at it. As for The Lion banishing Luther and his possie to caliban, i would say that The Lion saw that his planet was basically infected inside out with the warp he had to banish those that whose loyalties were more with the warped planet then the empyream. I think that quote really said everything. The one where that one rebels says something in the lines of how the forests are gone but the monsters remain. Basically representing that no matter what the Lion and the Empyream did to save the planet there was no way they could stop the warp taint.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

VanitusMalus said:


> Well you gotta understand really only the Imperiums forces are strictly loyal to the Emperor. The Space Marines, especially those from the certain chapters or legions are more dedicated to their own ends and means, hence why eventhough they get the psycho-conditioning they are still capable of falling under the allure of Chaos. I don't even visualize Space Marines as fully loyal to the Emperor but more of a pantheon of gods with the same goal in mind


If anything the Spcae Marine chapters are more loyal to the Emperor (the man) while the other organisations are more loyal to the Imperium (the organisation).

The Space Marines lack the Imperium's view as the Emperor as a god, this is in accordance with the wishes of the Emperor himself. The Emperor fobade the worship of gods, including himself, despite the growth of factions of the new-found Imperium treating him like a god-like figure (ironically it turns out that it was Lorgar who produced the first documents suggesting the Emperor's divinity).

The isolation and independence of the Spcae Marine chapters means that their beliefs are far closer to those of the Emperor as they have been changed less by organisations and events that happened/formed afterwards (the Apostasy, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchs, the High Lords of Terra etc).

The Imperium has changed from that which the Emperor first invisioned and it is this parody of the Emperor's reign that the other organisations follow.


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## Assassin_reborn2 (Jul 4, 2009)

i think the primarch was loyal. it was just that he was confused and uncertain at a point which lead to his mistakes. like horus after he recovered execpt not as bad as to like try to kill the emperor. plus everybody makes mistakes even primarches and in the end his chapter still remainded loyal to the emperor if lion el johnson was un loyal most of his chapter would have joined chaos instead.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Key is Luther wasn't the evil one :victory:


He definitely was, regardless of the Lions allegiance, that much has been established. Especially through the history of the Fallen Angel Zhebdeck Abaddas in the Novel "Eye of Terror".


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

haha GW stole Buddha's story about how he didn't want to be worshipped as a god but they did anyway...


good times


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fluff'Ead said:


> He definitely was, regardless of the Lions allegiance, that much has been established. Especially through the history of the Fallen Angel Zhebdeck Abaddas in the Novel "Eye of Terror".


I havnt read that novel so dont know the account of 'Zhebdeck Abaddas', but the HH series certainly does not portray him as 'evil'. There are several accounts of what happened on Caliban, i think its 'Angels of Darkness' that gave one of the first alternative view-points, that the Fallen thought of themselves as loyal to the Emperor and the Lion as a traitor. Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels however are not just viewpoints based on the experiances of a single person, rather it is the story of the actual events.

He was tested on Sarosh where he had the chance to kill the Lion, which was understandable why he considered it, he is only a human, and had lived in the shadow of the Lion all his life. He chose not to kill Jonson on Sarosh - his seeming friendship and arguably 'fathership' of Jonson prevailing. 

He generally accepted his exile to Caliban (Even though he never knew the honest reason for it) and knew his time with the Great Crusade was over, but still he remained loyal to the legion despite his many internal doubts. When the rebellion began he began to be swayed to their cause at the first parlay (indeed the parlay itself was an act of defiance to the Imperium). 

He did what he had to do to save Caliban and his people, would he not have a 'prima facie' duty to his own people and planet above the Imperium to which he never connected, and which abandoned him, his people and his home?

Just my thoughts :biggrin:


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

> the HH series certainly does not portray him as 'evil'.


The HH series hasn't moved to the point where he falls to chaos.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

i dont think his allegiance is in question at all far from it.he faught the sons of horus on the forge world and won. for god sake people even the emperor sent perturabo to back up the loyalists on istavaan and if he didnt know he had turned to chaos how would the lion know. and anyway the da are still loyal in the 41st millenium. also luther is still in the rock rambling on about how the lion will return to forgive him.


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## Chaoz94 (Jun 17, 2008)

Death Shroud said:


> I think you need to re-read it again. The story is based after Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron have been revealed as traitors but before the force sent to defeat Horus arrives at Istavaan. It is only after the relief force arrives at Istavaan that the other traitor legions are revealed.
> 
> The Lion gave Perturabo the weapons to help AGAINST Horus (not knowing that Perturabo is on the traitors side). If Lion El'Johnson had wanted to side with Horus then why would he have risked his life in trying to stop Horus gaining access to the uber siege engines?


well he did ask for peturabros loyalty/vote if a new warmaster was to be elected , so it may have been out of securing his posistion of power as it were , 
or perhaps he recognized horus was infact strategically/tatically more likely to succeed in the heresy , and wanted to perhaps maintain trust with him incase the big e did die at his hands

chaoz


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## Chaoz94 (Jun 17, 2008)

FORTHELION said:


> i dont think his allegiance is in question at all far from it.he faught the sons of horus on the forge world and won. for god sake people even the emperor sent perturabo to back up the loyalists on istavaan and if he didnt know he had turned to chaos how would the lion know. and anyway the da are still loyal in the 41st millenium. also luther is still in the rock rambling on about how the lion will return to forgive him.


maybe it was a sign to horus that , if he did join him , that he was able to , and was prepared to deal with horus if he did betray him , after all horus did betray the emperor , so tatically its safe to assume that horus is willing to betray others to further his own ends i.e he twisted the truth with the space wolves ensuring that the thousand sons would be pratically wiped out / turn to his side, which means we cant rule out that horus is willing to betray others


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