# Is the Emperor good or Evil?



## Ardias26

Although it is pretty self evident that there are no 'good guys' in 40k, iI was wondering how the emperor is aligned in fluff terms, in the book legion one of the characters described him as a 'bloodthirsty bastard'. so, generally, how could his 'alignment' be best described.


----------



## Vaz

The ends justify the means. That's the Emperors philosophy.

So while he causes the death of thousands every day, to quell trouble, it's for the good of the Imperium.

Obviously, it depends on your view point.

You're a soldier in the Imperial Guard, fighting wars against a physical foe. The last thing you need is Chaos coming up, and biting you in the backside, so several guard regiments are assigned to keeping order, along with the Arbites. These are particularly brutal, and to stop heresy and defection, they are allowed to order the death penalty. This is all well and good if that one man preaches against the Emperor, and begins to turn the world against the Emperor, making a crusade which can cause trouble for untold millions. Killing him is the best way, and it is seen as a good decision to make.

However, try saying that to the dictators/Preachers family.


----------



## Cole Deschain

It's best summed up by one of my OTHER favorite Science Fiction universes-

"It’s my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of a son of a bitch or another."


----------



## kungfoomasta

if by good you mean the survival of the human race then yes but other than that he's a terrible person.


----------



## squeek

Ardias26 said:


> Although it is pretty self evident that there are no 'good guys' in 40k, iI was wondering how the emperor is aligned in fluff terms, in the book legion one of the characters described him as a 'bloodthirsty bastard'. so, generally, how could his 'alignment' be best described.


If I remember rightly the guy that called the Emperor a bloodthirsty bastard was working for the Cabal and not exactly human, so his view might be a little coloured possibly, but it does seem an accurate assessment to me. He would be good if you are on his side and were never killed or treated badly in his name, and he would be evil for everyone else. Other than that there is no overall moral standpoint to compare him to, everyone in 40k is a bit of a git really.


----------



## Farseer Beltiac

maybe he doesn't have a choice hear me out, but I always took him to be a sometimes fair and just guy but has flaws like everyone else.......in 40k the universe is in constant war and the forces of chaos are on the march. In truths terms civilians can, do and always will die in war. It's inevitable, but very sad too. Back in the ancient times whole cities would be put to the sword.....good thing that doesn't happend in todays time....


----------



## Ferrus Manus

The Emperors philosopy and thoughts are really bad, as these foughts have brought the Imperium and the Galaxy to a slowly decaying death. Right now the Emperor is quite a bastard killing thousands of humans a day. if he didnt make a mistake way before than 40k would have been like hippie land


----------



## Carna

I thought he was a good guy, he didn't force people to worship him, he chose to convert people into his civilisation rather than wipe them out. From what people have said on these forums, I've gathered the opinion that he was a good person as much as any conquerer can be.


----------



## CommanderAnthor

Apologies if this is offensive to anyone nothing offensive is intended but imagine we are germany and the other races are Jewish,

Lot's see the emperor as hitler and the other races being killed off are jews.


People can say why compare him to hitler? Because the emperor isn't a good guy either.

I beleive thats the best explenation possible.


----------



## Truth Bearer

The Emperor is about as good or evil as any other corpse sitting on a gold-plated Toilet.


----------



## sopmod

lol yes he's only good if he likes u


----------



## Unknown Primarch

good or evil, he still isnt the evilist so could be one of the goodest. 

but on god terms he has to be the goodest as the pantheon is total evil, star gods are sort of the same, gork and mork probably arent evil but cant be called good, eldar pantheon are abit inbetween (KMK was a right bastard) and seeing as tau dont seem to worship gods and neither do the tyranids i think the emperor is the defacto winner.


----------



## Exitus_10

then it is a point of view then isn't it now.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Exitus_10 said:


> then it is a point of view then isn't it now.


i suppose it is but i dont think anyone in 40k universe thinks about it too much. they think their god is the best and thats it.


----------



## Exitus_10

Of course that goes unsaid, Hail the Pantheon myself so yea.


----------



## Ste

Ahh hes a Bastard but hes Human so you've gotta love him  haha and humans make mistakes? but his mistakes which in his eyes were not mistakes are for humanity lol so meh hes awesome in my eyeS


----------



## SonOfHorus

Squeek the guy in Legion was human at one time and when he was human he met the Emperor and thats when he decided he was a bloodthirsty bastard so that is from his "human" point of view. He thought this because he is a powerful psyker and was briefly able to see into the emperors mind.


----------



## Brother Enok

CommanderAnthor said:


> Apologies if this is offensive to anyone nothing offensive is intended but imagine we are germany and the other races are Jewish,
> 
> Lot's see the emperor as hitler and the other races being killed off are jews.
> 
> 
> People can say why compare him to hitler? Because the emperor isn't a good guy either.
> 
> I beleive thats the best explenation possible.


:biggrin: Godwins law, well done sir.

Alas, comparing the big E with Hitler, and his great crusade with the invasion of Europe and subsequent masacre of almost 10,000,000 innocent men women and children isn't quit accurate.
The Emporer saught to use his armies to bring pockets of humanity back into the fold of the Imperium. When discovered they would be offered a chance to to join the Imperium, known as "complicance" or they could be anhilated by the combined might of the Legions and the Imperial Navy, Ironically also called "Compliance". From what I was taught, I don't remember the Jews being given much of a choice.
We also know that the Emporer wasn't a massive fan of wholesale slaughter from "Flight of the Eisenstiend"; when describing Virus bombs he mentions they are a weapon so vile "Even the Emporer is loathed to use them". 

As for aliens, well, its the Emporers galaxy, get out or die. As a human, ive got a slight bias towards the Men and women of the 31st millenium. The 41st, not quite like what the Emporer invisioned id bet.

If you want to compare the Imperium of the Great Crusade with anything, id say personally it would be closer to go with the Roman Empire. But then they didn't offer much of a chance for peacful surrender either.


----------



## Farseer Beltiac

Brother Enok said:


> :biggrin: Godwins law, well done sir.
> 
> Alas, comparing the big E with Hitler, and his great crusade with the invasion of Europe and subsequent masacre of almost 10,000,000 innocent men women and children isn't quit accurate.
> The Emporer saught to use his armies to bring pockets of humanity back into the fold of the Imperium. When discovered they would be offered a chance to to join the Imperium, known as "complicance" or they could be anhilated by the combined might of the Legions and the Imperial Navy, Ironically also called "Compliance". From what I was taught, I don't remember the Jews being given much of a choice.
> We also know that the Emporer wasn't a massive fan of wholesale slaughter from "Flight of the Eisenstiend"; when describing Virus bombs he mentions they are a weapon so vile "Even the Emporer is loathed to use them".
> 
> As for aliens, well, its the Emporers galaxy, get out or die. As a human, ive got a slight bias towards the Men and women of the 31st millenium. The 41st, not quite like what the Emporer invisioned id bet.
> 
> If you want to compare the Imperium of the Great Crusade with anything, id say personally it would be closer to go with the Roman Empire. But then they didn't offer much of a chance for peacful surrender either.




Good comparison, I agree with you more of an Imperialistic Roman stuff in the future...... I don't think the Emperor is evil like you said or promoted mass killings, he was just reuniting the Human race....some bad stuff happened and his favored sun betrayed him and he thought he could save him still...what is so bad about that?


----------



## Engelus

The emperor is Good for humans, Lawful Neutral to certain minor side races, and Lawful evil to major races that openly oppose the imperium

He is all about unifying humanity for the upcoming war which I am sure he forsees, unfortunately he doesn't see why it happens, and he falls prey to horus. He believes that a divided humanity will perish, and a unified humanity will survive.


----------



## Steel Rain

CommanderAnthor said:


> Apologies if this is offensive to anyone nothing offensive is intended but imagine we are germany and the other races are Jewish,
> 
> Lot's see the emperor as hitler and the other races being killed off are jews.
> 
> 
> People can say why compare him to hitler? Because the emperor isn't a good guy either.
> 
> I beleive thats the best explenation possible.


Godwin's Law
Edit: Sorry someone called it already.

Let's change the debate a little. Screw good or evil. There is no good or evil in 40k. Here's a better question: Did the Emperor do what is necessary for the safety of the Imperium? Or did he doom it completely?


----------



## surreal-mind

he set them in for a rough time, when he made certain primarchs....


----------



## Abbo

Steel Rain said:


> Godwin's Law
> Edit: Sorry someone called it already.
> 
> Let's change the debate a little. Screw good or evil. There is no good or evil in 40k. Here's a better question: Did the Emperor do what is necessary for the safety of the Imperium? Or did he doom it completely?


I see him as a good guy,he may have hated mutants, aliens and untrained psykers. (But some really odd decisions considering primarchs)
But overal for some good reasons(except IMO for Eldar and some non chaos muties)
I don't think mankind would have survived long without having been united in the IOM through the great crusade.
Being as it is the IOM is the only order power that can potentially stand up vs some galactic threads (United Orks, Necros or Nids) Especially if the cogs would drop the cult of Omnisiah and start doing real science again.

I think the Imperium is in big enough trouble now for him to reincarnate or wake up.


----------



## Brother Enok

I wouldn't say the Big E hated, im sure it wasn't war on a personal level, but as the man he was; the one chosen by the shamen of old Terra to unite and lead humanity against the evils of an uncaring unvierse he was bound to encounter some pit traps along the way. I always got the impression that the Emporer got on well with Eldrad on a personal level, alas thier differing view points put them at odds often. Nither come off as bloodthirsy, crude or prone to cruelty for crueltys sake.
Psykers are an odd one, but the judgements at the council of Nikea could well have been a safe gaurd against the machinations of the warp. Unchecked psykers make perfect pawns for the deamons of the immaterium, a risk not worth taking even with the ever growing philosiphy of the Imperial Truth so prevailent at the time.

We as people of the 21st Centurys are educated and conditioned, for the most, to be compasionate and caring for our fellow man, and accepting of other cultures. Unfortunatly the Galaxy of the 41st Millenium cannot be shared, and greed leads to war, even if its a war of our imaginations. As a human, and the Master of Mankind, the Emporer did what he had to do to bring humanitys destiny to fruition. His major floor was what made him so loved by his people; His humainty. He was a perfect example of this, warts and all, as the saying goes.


----------



## titan slayer

emporer is very evil basicly his big idea join me or die
1st guy says 'no' (emporer shoots him)
2nd guy 'only on one condition'(emporer shoots him)
3rd guy tries to run shot before he gets out the room

but despite that hes good as everything he dose the good of humanity he killed around 90% of the population of terra in the unification wars but that was so he had a platform from which to launch the great crusade.

also i'm not sure every alien encountered were killed out of spite i'm sure i read somwhere the inquisitions digital weapons are made by some alien race just as long as they could be usefull slaves for the emporer and mankind

also he did not want to be thought of as a god he actually punished the primach logar for saying the emporer is a god and i'm sure everyone knows were that led he was also against the cult that hailed him as a god


----------



## Kendares

he didnt give any other race a chance to live. only humans could live in his "perfect" galaxcy. and there is no right or wrong there is no good or bad, there is only different sides and different point of views.


----------



## Madeem

I'm not sure if you can say good or evil, because he's not really ruling now is he.

He started out all nice with his agressive recruitment of the old tribesmen, which may seem crude, but then again if we want to unit humans now this would be the only way too!

And then, when he was just getting started horus came to beat him up and he was put into the yellow coffin to guild the emperium through the stars.

The High lord rule now, not the emperor. Most of them will be powerhungry phycomaniacs who of course want more power.
The emperors worship wasn't installed untill after his death, so you can't confict him for this. During the crusade any religion was outlawed by the emperor anyway.

I don't think the emperium is evil, it's afraid, and scared people do scared things to survive.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

i think the thing that people get twisted is that they think of the emperor as being the same as jesus. that being all good and compassionate and never doing the slightest thing wrong. like someone else said he has the same humanity as everyone else and we know that humans have the capacity for good and have a evil side at the same time.
i think with the creation of another chaos god, the xenos being a very real threat to the existence of mankind and seeing a very big possiblity that humans would just become a widespread slave race the emperor had to take drastic measures to ensure not only the the prosperity of mankind but the survival and with so many variables the big plan was bound to slip up somewhere along the lines.

unless what has transpired was the emperors plan all along.......


----------



## Brother Enok

And even Jesus once said "I come not with peace, but with a sword".
He did what was needed for the continuation of the human race. As I human, ive got him down as "good". or a paler shade of grey at least


----------



## Steel Rain

I love how the chaos players say he's evil because he shoots people for not joining him. The xenos players say he's evil because he doesn't let other races live. The imperial players say he was good because he allowed humanity to flourish. Funny. That's some interesting (but expected) viewpoints. I don't see him as good or evil. I think he was humanity's champion. That's all.


----------



## surreal-mind

the emperor is merely a brilliant psyker and a harsh conquorer who accepts none but his own race. there is no straight good and evil, he made some mistakes and now he is on a golden toilet living as a generator and a fuse box, however its clear he no longer has any say in the imperium, he is just the mascot for the inquisition, i say the real question is "is the inquisition good or evil" (or at least "WAS the emperor good or evil") and the answer is, that they are in the middle, they do good and evil things, depending on who's side your on.

*steps off soap box*


----------



## Lord Lucius

I agree...but...
fulgrim started the hatred of xenos(yay ec!),
ordo malus are on good terms with eldar(at least harlequins)
smurfs are on a seace fire with tau,
high lords are power mad &
the only empire wich works is the smurfs 1(Ultramar)
I think that sums up the fucked up emperium o and heres to many different emperial cults


----------



## Rafen

THIS IS LIES THE GOD EMPEROR IS THE ULTIMITE GOOD HIS WORD IS LAW AND SHALL BE FOLOWED OR SUFFER A FATE WORS THAN DEATH

btw blood 4 the blod god:laugh:
(fav chaos god Khorne)


----------



## Brother Enok

Steel Rain said:


> I love how the chaos players say he's evil because he shoots people for not joining him. The xenos players say he's evil because he doesn't let other races live. The imperial players say he was good because he allowed humanity to flourish. Funny. That's some interesting (but expected) viewpoints. I don't see him as good or evil. I think he was humanity's champion. That's all.


I say he's good because I am a human, not because I play marines:grin:

Also, S-M, I think the Emporer is a tad more important to the Imperium of Man than just a Mascot for the Inqisition. Hes the Psychic becon that guides thier warfleets, and a figure of inspiration and comfort to the teeming masses and ever advancing legions. Now perhaps he is at his most powerful. He is an idea, and Ideas Mr Creedy, are bullet proof. 
Perhaps incaserated on the golden throne he is more able to guide and protect that he ever was during his years on the battlefield.


----------



## surreal-mind

im sure the 1000 psykers he eats every day would be able to power the astronomican if he wasnt around, the rest of that, a good mascot can do


----------



## Brother Enok

surreal-mind said:


> im sure the 1000 psykers he eats every day would be able to power the astronomican if he wasnt around, the rest of that, a good mascot can do


What makes you so sure, my friend.
And aye, I see your point about the mascot


----------



## psycho92

*yes and no*

yes because as people said he causes thousands of deaths a day, he wanted to take control the galaxy destroying all 'alien' races and the space marines are absolute bastards.

but no because he did not ask to be worshipped as a god but only as the saviour of humanity, he fought chaos and he supposedly keeps about 75% of the gateways that chaos could use closed using his psychic self.

so half and half really he is 'evil' however he is 'good' aswell.


----------



## Leatharnak

Not good or evil, just silly. No Ork would ever complain about wussie good or evul. We's orks just fights and survives and wins! Dat's da way of de universe...Get got or got the getter! Hur! Hur! Ghur! Reh!


----------



## Spot The Grot

Truth Bearer said:


> The Emperor is about as good or evil as any other corpse sitting on a gold-plated Toilet.


As a chaos player i agree :so_happy:

Although it is all a matter of point of view.

Yes he does go around killing people which makes him sort of evil but when you think of it in a logical way hes only doing as all other races in the galaxy want to kill each and dominate the other if he was to kill them then the normal people would live in peace.

I think hes a good guy.


----------



## Brother Enok

*yes because as people said he causes thousands of deaths a day,*

As most world leaders do today, either through action or omission of action, or no doubt would do if they had a galaxy spanning empire.

*he wanted to take control the galaxy destroying all 'alien' races *

As a human, Im fully behind this. As I remember he was on good terms with the Eldar, so it wasn't all KILL KILL

*and the space marines are absolute bastards.*

I don't agree. I think they defend humanity quite well. Salamanders? Wolves? Ultramarines?


----------



## delta13

well, guys i have to say...in my many years on this planet and inthis life.... i have come to find one thing very true... every leadr no matter who it is, President bush, Barrak obama, hitler, caesar, napolian, etc...all of them have been blood thirsty bastards and magnificent heros all at the same time...like many things in life it is simply a matter of perspective and relativity...it ultimatly come down to whoes side your on...much like the saying "one mans junk is another mans treasure" well, "one mans hero is another mans villan"....just my two cents


----------



## Brother Enok

I Agree entirley...and as a human being, I think the Emperor was a good guy. I find it hard to emphasis with Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Chaos, renegades and mutants. But I can emphasis with Humans quite well.
So if I was alive in the 31st millenium, who would I be rooting for. The humans. The humans led by the wise, powerful athiest no less. Excellent.

Also, I think its a little early to call Obama a bloody thirsty bastard and start mentioning him in the same sentance as Hitler.
You raise a good point with Julius Ceaser though. Was he a bad guy? I bet he was a hero to the Romans.


----------



## jesse

really it all boils down to your personal view point, because in the end good and evil are opinions.

me personally i think he was kinda good, but could've been more tolerate of xenos and such


----------



## delta13

isn't that what brother enok and i just said...lol

but i do agree with the opinion of he should have been more tolerable of some xeno races but don't forget that there are many more xenos race we rarely hear about from the pre heresy days that presumably were less friendly than some of the more notorious ones...


----------



## gwmaniac

he probably meant well, but his inquisitors and basically any imperial just ruins his reputation by killing off anyone non-imperial, so he can be viewed as a good person looked on as evil because of his armies and inquisitors.


----------



## Sister Sin

Subjective; dependent on how one defines 'good' and 'evil'. Everyone has both, or the potential for both; it's what is predominant when the scales are weighed that matters, or so it is said by some.


----------



## gwmaniac

Sister Sin said:


> Subjective; dependent on how one defines 'good' and 'evil'. Everyone has both, or the potential for both; it's what is predominant when the scales are weighed that matters, or so it is said by some.


you kinda confused me at the end :wacko: but i got it after reading it a couple times. i have to agree on that, but is the emperor really alive, or should he might as well be considered a mechanical corpse?


----------



## Sister Sin

That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish! LOL We'd have to define 'living' in the context of the 40K universe...he's a Psycher and that's still working, although weakening...so if his body is dead but his brain is still functioning, where does that leave us? O-o

The argument can be made he's evil because he feasts on other beings to keep himself 'alive'. If he's dead, does that argument still count? 

Okay, I'll stop there. My head hurts. LOL


----------



## Brother Enok

When thinking of good and evil, in terms of 40K at least, I ask why, not what or to whom. 

Did the Emperor kill Xenos out of spite, simply for the joy of killing? or did he see it as the only way to be sure his people would be free from oppresion and tyranny?


----------



## Abomination

The emperor is a good man/god (depending on your faith) ad he fights for he imperium & the human race (or did before the throne). However his methods are likely to be seen as bloodthirsty or 'evil' by some. Still as someone pointed out earlier, in the emps' mind the end justify's the means.


----------



## Micklez

I have a simple answer for you
Emperor = Chuck Norris
Chuck Norris = Good
Therefore, acording to mathamatical reasoning, the Emperor is Good

On a serious note though, it, like many before me have said, boils down to necessity, he did what he had to.


----------



## Captain Galus

CommanderAnthor said:


> Apologies if this is offensive to anyone nothing offensive is intended but imagine we are germany and the other races are Jewish,
> 
> Lot's see the emperor as hitler and the other races being killed off are jews.
> 
> 
> People can say why compare him to hitler? Because the emperor isn't a good guy either.
> 
> I believe that's the best explanation possible.


I not offended by this, but I think it's a gross misrepresentation and a fallacy to compare The Big E to hitler. There was this one time I took a test in a Biology class. I studied for this test and was confident that I was going to ace it. However, when the teacher turns everyone's tests back, I don't get mine. I ask him why and he replies that he spilled coffee on my test and was giving me a zero. _A zero on a fucking test._ Now I don't think there's any doubt in yall's mind that this teacher is a terrible human being, but I'm not about to go comparing him to hitler just because _they're both bad dudes._ There's a big difference between an alien race and jewish people; A) said alien race _always_
poses a threat to humanity (yall keep forgetting how the 40k universe rolls:ireful2, and B) If we don't take them out, they will take us out. It's as simple as that. Call me racist but every "alien race" can die in a fire for all I care, one human life is worth a million alien lives any day of the week. Hell, one human life is worth a million traitor lives too. I personally think this is a matter of where you stand; if you're an alien, it's likely you hate the Emperor and humanity.

I think he's a stand up guy btw. k:k:


----------



## Baron Spikey

I think the Emperor simply *is*
As Stalin once said- 'One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic.'
The Emperor just took that philosophy to its natural conclusion in a galaxy containing trillions of humans and other assorted races. 

In order to impose any sense of safety in regards to the continuation of Humanity's supremacy brutal acts had to be performed, that they were dispassionately premeditated neither makes them good nor evil but amoral- you can't hate something that you don't regard as even equal to your people's continued existence, that's simply in your way, therefore how could it be called an evil act to remove it from your path?

A suitable analogy would be finding termites infesting your house:
You have them exterminated not because you hate them or are evil- though if termites were capable of sentient thought they would see the destruction of their race and home as such- but because they are a danger to the continued strength and stability of your own home.


----------



## Dead

Is it good, or evil? That depends on your philosophical outlook on life. How can we define good and evil? Does truth exist? Or only interpretations? Who knows. I'm not one to say either view is actually correct, I just have my opinions.


----------



## Nightbringer666

I think the Imperium should just end all its god-forsaken pieces of shit followers think they're doing the human race a favor, really the Emperor is trule a bloodthirsty bastard killing millions just to keep his imperium alive. But mostly its the Generals and all the other leaders of the imperium now that the Emperor is pretty much dead. But truly the Emperor is one crazy son of a bitch.


----------



## Brother Enok

Nightbringer666 said:


> I think the Imperium should just end all its god-forsaken pieces of shit followers think they're doing the human race a favor, really the Emperor is trule a bloodthirsty bastard killing millions just to keep his imperium alive. But mostly its the Generals and all the other leaders of the imperium now that the Emperor is pretty much dead. But truly the Emperor is one crazy son of a bitch.


ummm, that made little sense, but Im guessing your saying the Emperor kills millions of humans to keep the human race alive. A few problems with this; First, no he dosn't. Hes fed a thousand psykers a day we are told, but he dosn't actuallly kill any humans, or order thier deaths. 
Second, sacrificing humans for the good of humainty is just the grim dark reality of the forty first millenium.

If you say hes a blood thirsy bastard because he killed, and ordered killed, millions of Xenos, aliens who's existance threatens humanitys ability to walk the starts, then yes, he is a blood thirsty bastard; and thank goodness for it. Does that make him evil? No, it does not. His actions are out of necesity, not spite.
And crazy? Hardly, he might just have been the smartest scientist and psycher ever to have lived, amoung humans.


----------



## Air Meister

The Emps goal is the imperium, if he was a xenos hater then that just helped the situation. Kill or be killed, at least he had justification:search:


----------



## jesse

well ultimately i think he is a good guy, but he just needs to work on his intolerence


----------



## Corporal Chaos

I have to say he is "EVIL, EVIL, EVIL." No doubt. :nono:


----------



## jesse

well thats a very biased opinion huh?


----------



## delta13

well as i have said before i think it simply depends on what side of the fence your on as to wether or not the leader in question is hero, villian or a bit of both...


----------



## Lord Lucius

look.chaos rules,ok?
now,the mperor does fuck all,HES DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!
its the high FUCKING LORDS!!!!who are killing1000s
its Fulgrim who started all the xenocides


----------



## kidder

the emperor is a FUCKING NAZI


----------



## shaman_stig

the impeirum = nazis ok they dont go for the blond hair blues eyes but if you aint **** sapien then you dont deserve to live now no one calls the nazis the good guys of world war 2 id say the only good guys are the tau (little blue bastards ) (sorry im an imperial player that makes me a 40k racist) they fight for the greater good and will let anyone join them (bieng a hippy i admire that but bieng a imperial commander i hate that) but i digress you have to remember b4 the emporer was placed in golden throne it was a golden age for mankind so like so many charcters in 40k hes good if you share a race with him bad if you dont


----------



## gwmaniac

shaman, we really really shouldn't be talking about nazis here. i mean really shouldn't. it's one of the top rules of what not to talk about, man.


----------



## Col. Schafer

What, ignore them and they never existed? So long as we accept they were fuckheads and never try what they did at all, what is the problom? (Note; If you can come up with an actual problom I will listen, I just dont think about it mutch other than the odd hitlerstash joke or Famguy episode)

Anyhoo, I gotta use that particluar analogy once more: The emporer is as evil or good as hitler was, but the imperium are the nazis. From there perspective he's the greatest thing since crack. To everyone else he is the embodyment of all the worst things you could posibly imagine.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Lord Lucius said:


> look.chaos rules,ok?
> now,the mperor does fuck all,HES DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!
> its the high FUCKING LORDS!!!!who are killing1000s
> its Fulgrim who started all the xenocides



chaos rules.... please. they get everyone else to do their dirty work and when the emperor was just about to lay the smackdown on horus they abandoned their pawn instead of standing firm against a supposed weakling emperor!
why didnt they just take the lance and laugh in the face of the emp and proceed to annilate him? because they couldnt and the emp isnt dead he's just gaining more powers through commune with the akashic records and learning all there is to know in the universe and then is gonna open a can of whoop ass on chaos when he is good and ready. so all in all CHAOS SUCKS!


----------



## Count Arioch

From what I can determine, the Emperor is a right bastard, and when he was a alive, probably a jerk as well. 

That being said, he's dead now, so it'd irrelevant. And even if he was, I can't think of a better solution.


----------



## delta13

what the hell is the issue with talking about naziz or hitler... is this a completely narrow minded forum or have we re-become so frikin politically correct that we are gooinjg to ignor things like "history" or "real life"? come on guys surely you must be kidding....thats like telling a british person it's bad to say the words "roman legion" (since the legion dominated the early brits)... so agin...come on guys lets be real...


----------



## Ascendant

^ the point isn't semantics, or what you personally find offensive. The point is that is against the rules, and we should respect that. 


I think he was a good guy. He tried to unite all of humanity under a single banner and help them cast off the shackles of their alien oppressors. Sure it was bloody, but it may have saved the human race.


----------



## delta13

well then maybe the rules need reviewing...


----------



## BlackApostleVilhelm

so back to the actual question...

yes the emperor is bad, not evil becuase that would pertain to the chaos gods but even they are not evil, he is just as grammaticus puts it a bloodthirsty bastard. on to the comments on how the imperium sucks and how chaos sucks, they both suck. or if you want to go the phylosophical way, they both kick ass. this goes to the theme of good and evil, light and dark, order and chaos. everything depends on someone's perspective on the situation and you can't have one without the other. they each are to represent certain things, both the good and bad sides of those things. 

the best example is order vs. chaos. order would be the Imperium, in its best times it is just and protects the people but it can also be authoritarian and very dogmatic, two sides of the same coin. now on to chaos, of course we all know the bad side, people die and there is no control over anything, but the good side is the freedom and power that is attainable. once again two sides to the same coin. one is yin and the other is yang and then yin has its own yin and yang and so does yang (That was hard to spit out). as lorgar once said, "The difference between daemons and saints largely depends on where one is standing at the time."


----------



## Col. Schafer

"There is no good and no evil there is only power and those to weak to seek it"
I dont remember where I heard that.


----------



## Darkoan

Col. Schafer said:


> "There is no good and no evil there is only power and those to weak to seek it"
> I dont remember where I heard that.



You might be right - many say that the only secular morality we can use is the measure of power.

But the question at hand requires a relatively non-secular view of what good/evil is. Senseless murdering, domination of others, theft, etc being bad.

Therefore you would say the Emperor APPEARS good with an evil streak.

What Im interested in is what the true motivation of the Emperor, which would reveal much on this issue.

I hear elsewhere a 5th Chaos god theory - is this the theory that THE EMPEROR ALL ALONG ONLY WANTED TO BECOME A CHAOS GOD? This includes the creation of the Primarchs etc. Im not claiming originality here, but I have my own theories here since reading The First Heretic.

My theory goes along the lines that the Emperor obviously sees into the Warp and sees its truth. The material universe can never compare to the Warp. He sees humans and their pathetic ways, their history, their psychology. Hes given his race 40,000 odd years of guidance, and all he really wants to do now is live the rest of existence as a Warp god. 

But alone - and he might know of a way to destroy the other 4 Chaos gods.

He thinks about it... the only way Im going to do this is to 1) have complete dominion over the galaxy (enter the Great Crusade) - Ill need 20 primarchs for that one
2) Ill need to conquer the Webway just to make sure of my dominion - ill do this as Im finishing up the Great Crusade. Horus will finish that one for me. :blush:
3) Ill need psychically active powerhouses to aid me in my next task - too conquer the warp. The 20 primarchs might be affective, but what ill really want is maybe a couple thousand alpha psykers. This will be my Primarch 2.0 project. 
4) Conquer the Warp and destroy the 4 chaos gods, under the context of 'im hear to save humanity from the Warp and their evil Gods'. Then wrangle the death of my alpha psykers and most of humanity to birth me as a Warp God, akin to a Slaanesh 2.0.
possible epilogue
5) Somehow influence the Necrons to finish that Cadian pylon contraption that closes the Warp from the material. Live out existence undisturbed by my monkey ancestors as the sole rule of a vibrant, exciting, fuschia coloured soup.

Or something. :wink:


----------



## Phoebus

The Emperor has a "good" aim, which is to keep Humanity safe from Chaos, but employs "evil" means to achieve this.

More accurately, the Emperor seems to subscribe to a "macro" view of the Galaxy and Humanity. Look at China during the 70s: government programs aimed at revolutionizing individual household productivity ended up bankrupting millions, led to untold misery, and had a direct hand in terms of death by privation and death by violence as supporters of the Party brutally suppressed those that went against the flow.

But was that government "evil"? It goes without saying they were brutal, tyrannical, etc., but the aim of the program itself was to propogate prosperity along an ideological direction.

The Emperor seems the same to me. He doesn't worry about the micro-scale of Humanity... the little guy, the suffering of the individual. His concern is strictly focused on the ultimate state and perseverance of trillions of humans. More accurately, he probably realizes that the dystopian 40k universe doesn't allow for "good" solutions to its problems.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Exactly, The Emperor is willing to use any means to safeguard humanitys future, if that means he has to sacrifice some for the 'greater good'(to coin the Tau) then so be it. He has good intentions for humanity, but won't back down from using ruthless measure to ensure this happens. He understands that to beat Chaos you must be willing to go to the next level, cross the lines some fear to tread.


----------



## gothik

titan slayer said:


> emporer is very evil basicly his big idea join me or die
> 1st guy says 'no' (emporer shoots him)
> 2nd guy 'only on one condition'(emporer shoots him)
> 3rd guy tries to run shot before he gets out the room
> 
> but despite that hes good as everything he dose the good of humanity he killed around 90% of the population of terra in the unification wars but that was so he had a platform from which to launch the great crusade.
> 
> also i'm not sure every alien encountered were killed out of spite i'm sure i read somwhere the inquisitions digital weapons are made by some alien race just as long as they could be usefull slaves for the emporer and mankind
> 
> also he did not want to be thought of as a god he actually punished the primach logar for saying the emporer is a god and i'm sure everyone knows were that led he was also against the cult that hailed him as a god


only after allowing him to continue his worship for 200 odd years i think the emperor is a cold hearted tyrant, do as i say and all is well, go against what i say then pay the price, sounds a bit like old roman emperors or 20th century dictaterates. 
he has the interests of humanity at the forefront of histhoughts but billions of humans in the IG get killed in his name, Arbites execute those who speak against his name and the corpse on the throne still eats all the psykers souls but that is the 41M and i suppose you have to be pragmatic if you don't want to loose to the dark gods....even so he is just as bad imho


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Phoebus said:


> The Emperor has a "good" aim, which is to keep Humanity safe from Chaos, but employs "evil" means to achieve this.
> 
> More accurately, the Emperor seems to subscribe to a "macro" view of the Galaxy and Humanity. Look at China during the 70s: government programs aimed at revolutionizing individual household productivity ended up bankrupting millions, led to untold misery, and had a direct hand in terms of death by privation and death by violence as supporters of the Party brutally suppressed those that went against the flow.
> 
> But was that government "evil"? It goes without saying they were brutal, tyrannical, etc., but the aim of the program itself was to propogate prosperity along an ideological direction.
> 
> The Emperor seems the same to me. He doesn't worry about the micro-scale of Humanity... the little guy, the suffering of the individual. His concern is strictly focused on the ultimate state and perseverance of trillions of humans. More accurately, he probably realizes that the dystopian 40k universe doesn't allow for "good" solutions to its problems.


That certainly seems to be the case. Regardless though, it's still not certain they were his ultimate aims. Who is to say he wasn't selfishly using humanity for his own ends?

Ulimately we can't get inside his head to truly know what his intentions were.


----------



## Phoebus

Well said!


----------



## belovedbyall

I've read all the HH books. I'm in the process of reading them for the second time and am up to Nemesis.

I have not read anything that gives background for the emperor, however, other than whatever is found in the HH novels or that I've read in the forum.

That being said...up until reading "The First Heretic", I thought the Emperor was a real shitball--for the reasons mentioned (killing, Grammaticus' impression of him, etc).

After thinking about it a bit and taking what I know, I've had a change of heart.

If you consider that by the time of the HH, the E has been living fpr 30k+ years and his destiny is to unite mankind and claim the galaxy in it's name...I think that changes a lot.

First off, he doesn't see things as 'this is good and this is bad'. He takes the long view. VERY long. After the first 10k years or so, I imagine anyone would.

Everything he does, he's thinking many steps ahead--for the betterment of man and the realization of his dream.

He roots out the xenos because they aren't human and, as such, if left alive, they may feel differently about living in the 'empire of man' after a while and rise up. Can't risk it.

He roots out the mutants because mutation is often a sign of the taint of chaos. Can't risk it.

He roots out the psyker for several reasons. Psykers can be dangerous to his overall plan (which is bigger than anything--even him), they are easily vessels for the warp, and they're just too hard to control and afford themselves too much autonomy in his vision of the galaxy. Can't risk this, either.

The imperium of man is more than the emperor's vision. It is what he was created for. And I think that after 30k years, he's realized that no one else can possibly FATHOM what that really means--no matter their intentions or foresight. He KNOWS that he is the only one that can do this. He has accepted it and he has moved forward since that time as he sees fit, doing what must be done.

Think about it...why did he never reveal himself earlier in history? Obviously, as the greatest human psyker to ever live, he saw things in the future and was biding his time, but perhaps after witnessing history for century after century--and then millenia after millenia, he refined his dream, realized that he was the only one capable of uniting man across the stars, and determined what had to be done.

He made missteps. 

In trying to create the secular truth--thus leaving out things like demons and chaos gods for fear that it was too dangerous a truth for people to deal with--he left people more open and uneducated regarding the warp. 

The E also assumed that his children were as capable as he--and yet still didn't warn them of the dangers lurking in the galaxy (even Magnus discovered this on his own). He left Horus to run the show, but Horus feels abandoned and overwhelmed. Other primarchs, he gives a legion to and then goes on about his business, seemingly thinking that it will all just work itself out (I'm thinking Angron, Curze).

I think the E knew what needed to be done, knew that he was the only one that could do it (who can argue that?), and took the steps necessary to make sure it happened.

Think about the situations that people are found living in, in countries with very large populations. Things are rough. 

Now multiply that by a gazilion AND take into account that the E has seen millenia of history and how these things always work.

If he were to create a beneficent empire, it would be taken advantage of. The emperor is as 'good' as he possibly can be. Logic simply won't allow for more.

I had a lot to say and may have left some out...

Thoughts?


----------



## Imperious

People like the Emperor (meaning leaders of vast amounts people) are beyond good and evil. In order to make the decisions they need to make they can't be troubled with emotions. There has to be a certain amount of detachment. I think the emperor is neither good nor evil. He is *amoral*. He is willing to do whatever it takes to safeguard mankind.


----------



## BlackGuard

The Emperor is Good in its purest form.

You are always looking at this threw the moral lenses of our present society -- nice and comfortable in the First World with all the luxuries afforded to us by our birthright. 

In the year 30,000, Humanity stands at the brink of extinction. The Chaos Gods lurk in the shadows, stabbing our randomly at Humanity in the form of priest-kings, daemons, and magiks. Aliens such as the Eldar, Ork, and the myriad of other species feast upon human flesh and enslave Mankind. Terra is a blighted world with no oceans, scarred by constant war, and its inhabitants living in near-constant horror.

The Emperor knew Humanity had a choice to make -- go in hard and fast, try to outsmart the Dark Gods, smash the Xenos, burn all those who resist and eventually save itself from enslave or worse. 

Looking at it threw those lenses -- no man could be more pure than Him-on-Earth.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

The Emperor has seen everything that Humanity has been through for, what, 48000 years? He was there when the first Human galactic empire crumbled; he watched as Xenos races that had pledged friendship had turned on the stricken worlds and killed or enslaved the people there. He had seen the offer of friendship and trust spat on and spurned when the time seemed ripe to do so, and so he determined that this would never happen again. Now, the galaxy would be under the total control of Humanity and no others.
Beyond that, we have to understand that the Emperor cares for Humanity, not Humans. If you get in the way, if you get yourself between Humanity and its destiny, you will be killed. If you give your all to help his mission, then you might get to live to see the fulfilment of his plan.
Unfortunately, the side-effect of the Emperor's long life and ability to see so far into the future, is a retreat from his everyday Humanity. He is someone who will show immense care to one who is in his presence- he can afford to as noone near him could ever harbour thoughts of hurting him that he wouldn't know about. He guides on the large-scale where Humans don't really count, because they don't really show up. On the large-scale it's all about civilisations and systems. And so (I'll admit, I couldn't wade through all of these pages), the view expressed towards the beginning that the Emperor is _amoral_ ssems close; although even that isn't quite the full picture, to my mind at least. To a normal Human mind, even a mind like Grammaticus', the Emperor is _incomprehensible_. 
His thoughts, feelings and motivations can only partially felt by those he works around and through. I doubt there is a mind that could truly comprehend what he wants and values. Except, maybe, Malcador. The Emperor isn't good, he isn't evil; he just _is_; and Humanity is the safer for it.

GFP


----------



## chitownpaul

The Emperor has the strongest physic of any human. If Magnus could look into the future then couldn't the Emperor also? on one of the posts someone compared him to Hitler. but that isnt correct. what if the Emperor could see so far into the future that he knew Horus would rebel against him. what if it was part of his divine plan. i would think that looking into the future like they describe it in 40k is like looking up a tree while standing at the trunk. the trunk is now and each branch is a possibility of a future event. but like a gardener we only want certain branches to grow so we have to prune them out. the Hitler comment keeps popping back to mind. if you could go back in time and stop Hitler from starting world war two and all the killing that happened, would you? what if certain people hadnt died because you had stopped Hitler? and they had kids who had kids who had kids who committed an even bigger crime against humanity! only a God could see the possibility's! only a God could understand the consequences of freewill and what humanity does to itself! only the Emperor!


----------



## Bloody Mary

As has been said before, the Emperor is neither good, nor evil. I wouldn't say he's amoral either: it always seemed to me that followed his own moral code, but one that was incomprehensible to normal humans. Think Cthulu.


----------



## GWLlosa

I think everyone comparing the Imperium and the Emperor to Nazis and Hitler is overshooting the mark a bit. The more accurate parallel, I feel, is probably to the government portrayed in the movie Starship Troopers (not the book, the movie (there are differences)). As to the morality of the Emperor, I think it can be summed up in the following quote:

_Carl, to Johnny, after sending his unit in to be bait in a known trap:_

*Carl*: You disapprove? Well, too bad! We're in this war for the species, boys and girls. It's simple numbers. They have more. And every day I have to make decisions that send hundreds of people like you to their deaths.

*Johnny Rico*: Didn't they tell you, Colonel? That's what the Mobile Infantry is good for.


----------



## Imperious

GWLlosa said:


> I think everyone comparing the Imperium and the Emperor to Nazis and Hitler is overshooting the mark a bit. The more accurate parallel, I feel, is probably to the government portrayed in the movie Starship Troopers (not the book, the movie (there are differences)). As to the morality of the Emperor, I think it can be summed up in the following quote:
> 
> _Carl, to Johnny, after sending his unit in to be bait in a known trap:_
> 
> *Carl*: You disapprove? Well, too bad! We're in this war for the species, boys and girls. It's simple numbers. They have more. And every day I have to make decisions that send hundreds of people like you to their deaths.
> 
> *Johnny Rico*: Didn't they tell you, Colonel? That's what the Mobile Infantry is good for.



Yup. Like I said, detached and amoral.


----------



## locustgate

In a universe where any1 will kill you there is no room for good or evil.


----------



## Krymson86

I think that's the point of 40k to be honest. Sure on the surface of it you could go "Oh, the Emperor does stuff to benefit humanity" but he also does lots of horrible stuff to "benefit humanity." The Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar seem to be, to me, the only ones in the 40k universe that are outright evil, just based on their whole torturing people for no reason/getting off on doing horrible things to everyone. 

The Eldar try to use their foresight to guide the 40k universe to its best possible outcome, however they do it in a way that is not always beneficial in the immediate for everyone. 

The Tau seem to more or less be a group that just want their sector of space to themselves, but that sector keeps expanding, the Imperium keeps expanding as well so the two sides come to skirmshes and battle at times. 

Orks aren't good, but I'm not sure they're evil either. Their need/want for destruction though probably has them leaning towards evil. 

Tyranid remind me a lot of Aliens in that they're certainly a plague on the universe and pose a grave threat. However, they're not exactly evil because of it. The Tyranid are simply hardwired to expand across the universe and devour everything. 

Basically everyone is good and bad depending on whose perspective you're hearing about them.


----------



## Uilleam

The Emperor, at best, was a feeble minded individual with lofty ambitions and good intentions. He tried to reunite the human race across the galaxy to perserve the galaxy for humans. But to believe he was going to outwit the Chaos gods was pure lunacy. The path to hell is paved with good intentions they say. He condones the Night Lords terror tactics. Then sentences Haunter to death after he changes his mind. He allows Lorgar to worship him as a god for 200 years then forbades it. He leads his armies to the brink of completing the Imperium he so dreams of and then abandons them to pursue his own goal. This doesn't fit into my definition of a 'good' leader.

At worst, and far more likely, he was an evil tyrant with only his own ambitions in mind lying to convince anyone that his way was the best. With the big 4 out of the picture he would be in utter and complete control of humanity. A god in no uncertain terms. His influence would be the only one in the warp. All would bow before him in fear and devotion. Sure, he would crush the xenos. But then mankind would stagnate under his rule. No freedom. No evolution. A lifetime of service to fuel the Imperium and guard it's borders from the very bitter, and highly hostile, displaced xenos races.

No one will ever know for certain. GW is not likely to give anyone a glimpse into the Emperor's mind in any novels. But having a member of the Cabal, John, state he saw into his mind and he considered him a 'bloodthirsty bastard' as well as the Emperor dropping his glamour to allow John to see him as he truely is and it almost drove John mad leads me to believe that not everything as is it seems with the big E. He has alot more to do with the warp than he lets on. I think the Golden Throne was more about projecting his influence into the warp to attain godhood than just simply guiding spacecraft through the ether. He can lie to Magnus and tell him he was to be the one on the throne but it really matters very lil until he actually followed through what he says. Unfortunatly for Big E the Chaos gods are much smarter than he thought and ruined all his hard work forcing the Emp to use the throne merely to survive. The gods never wanted the rule of mankind. That would be the end of the great game. 

I'm inclined to believe the Emperor was definitly evil in no uncertain terms. Nothing he does benefits anyone as much as it benefited him.


----------

