# hypocrite emperor



## another alias (Jan 30, 2010)

I've got a question about the emperor: If he hates religion why does he tolerate the imperial cult? I know he's stuck in the golden throne but if he's the most powerful human pyker known to man why can't he just tell people he doesn't approve of it?

Is it like "All religion is dumb...except the one that worships me."?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

another alias said:


> I've got a question about the emperor: If he hates religion why does he tolerate the imperial cult? I know he's stuck in the golden throne but if he's the most powerful human pyker known to man why can't he just tell people he doesn't approve of it?
> 
> Is it like "All religion is dumb...except the one that worships me."?


This is just a mere guess but the Emperor got much larger thinks on his shoulders than to worry about the Imperial cult. He must keep the Warp things at bay, make sure every ship can travel easier through the Warp and ect ect. The Imperium of Man is not looking like the way he intended during the Great Crusade but it isnt much he can do about that right now.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think it's because the damage has been done.

I think it took a while for him to regain his consciousness on the throne or to reach a state where he could think about something other than surviving and keeping the webway intact and daemons from invading the material world.

Also I think it's because the society has been too deeply ingrained in the cult and everything works the way it does because of their worshiping of the emperor.

If he took that away, the whole structure of the imperium would collapse and that's not something he can cope with in his weakened state and also due to the structure, the leadership doesn't reside on him but on others. This allows him to focus on the things I mentioned above and gives him time to recuperate even though 10k years is way too long.

I've always thought that the whole notion of the heresy and the present day of the imperium being ten thousand years apart was way too much.

There is no way that new technology, despite the notion of it being heresy, could not form. Some say new tech. does emerge but never reaches the mainstream due to the vast size of the imperium which I think is a bogus, stupid plot device. 

I don't think GW thought the series would last or would be so successful so they set up a crazy timespan like ten thousand years and now can't retract that number due to all the novels, stories, etc. that have been woven around that time frame.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

probably because he wanted to destory religions in the great crusade and the best way to do that is make the masses believe they arent real. makes a better argument than saying my god is better than yours. the emperor has walked a thin line to get humanity to survive and prosper and he hasnt been scared to sacrifice some for the greater good of the race (just look what he did to the void dragon - what a gameplan this guy has). he is like a farseer in some ways - he is not good or evil in a grand scheme but does what he needs to do to make the human race survive. even if he was anti reliegon then this kind of immortal sacrifice should be recognised as god like anyway, dont you think?


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

another alias said:


> I've got a question about the emperor: If he hates religion why does he tolerate the imperial cult?


Because all he does now is hold the Imperial webway closed, and directs the Astronomicon. Also, if The Inquisition War is to be believed, the Emperor is actually a demented madman. Despite all his mighty, with regards the Imperium, he is powerless. That's why the High Lords run everything, rather than the Emperor. He doesn't really communicate with the Imperial leadership.



> I know he's stuck in the golden throne but if he's the most powerful human pyker known to man why can't he just tell people he doesn't approve of it?


So what? The High Lords, Eccliesiarchy and the Inquisition decided long ago that the Imperium needs religion. So what if the Emperor doesn't want it. If he didn't want to be our messiah, he shouldn't have acted like one. 

As Python joked in Life of brian:

'Only a true god denies his divinity!'



> Is it like "All religion is dumb...except the one that worships me."?


No, not really.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

The Emperor can't directly communicate with the Imperium. That's why he needs the tarot. If he's opposed to being worshiped there's not a thing he could do to stop it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord Lucan has it right.

The Imperial Cult is the main thing keeping the Imperium unified. It is the main way in which the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy maintain authority. Ideally (during the Great Crusade) the Emperor wished for an empire which shunned religion and 'superstition', but for one hundred centuries he has been in no position to remove religion from his Imperium. Rather maintain an empire which is superstitious and paranoid than have no empire at all I guess.


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## Theripontigonus (Dec 13, 2009)

I think people here are missing the biggest issue. Yes, he is focused primarily on the astronomicon, but without the High Lords of Terra and the accompanying beurocracy the emperor would not recieve the thousands of sacrificial psychers that make his continued existence and powers possible. It is the Imperial Cult that rounds up those sacrifices, thus they are a necessary evil. If the emperor were to do anything to change the balance of power it would cause all sorts of schisms within the Inquisition and government, as well as endangering his own life. If the golden throne goes down, then all of the imperium is finished.


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

I think too many people are treating the emperor as he's still a living being. He's more just a massive psychic force then a conscious mind. That blazing life force keeps the webway closed and acts as a beacon to navigators in the warp. Other then that he's not in a capacity to do anything like directly observing or communicating with anyone.


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## another alias (Jan 30, 2010)

MJayC50 said:


> this kind of immortal sacrifice should be recognised as god like anyway, dont you think?


what do you mean by immortal sacrifice?


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

another alias said:


> what do you mean by immortal sacrifice?


Sitting on the Golden Throne for ten millenia keeping daemons from wtfpwning the Imperium and the Astronomican burning and possibly directing the Tarot. Whatever bit of him remmains is probably non too comfy with his job i'd immagine.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Well, the Emperor can't really answer, as stated before.

And the Emperor may not even have wanted the cult to start in the first place. 
For it is the invention of Lorgar, ironically enough. 

But yes, as bitter as it might be for the Emperor that wanted to abolish the superstition of Gods and Daemons and such, he doesn't have a choice. They exist all around him, and he himself might be one. 

Not much else to say, that haven't been said, really. 
Other than the fact that you loyalists owe Lorgar a thanks


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

The Emperor might have been opposed to crack as well, but after you get a few hits its hard to say no to more. 

All the prayers that people give to the Emperor goes directly to feeding him. He gets power from it. Even if he thought it was wrong he probably has little desire to stop the worship coming his way.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> The Emperor might have been opposed to crack as well, but after you get a few hits its hard to say no to more.
> 
> All the prayers that people give to the Emperor goes directly to feeding him. He gets power from it. Even if he thought it was wrong he probably has little desire to stop the worship coming his way.


And such is born The Carrion God of Chaos.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

All hail the Star-Father, the horrific god of Domination!


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## Ender7j (Jan 12, 2010)

*My thougts on the nature of the Holy Emperor*

I have come to see the Emperor as a physically dead creature. The Golden Throne does nothing more than sustain certain aspects of his 'soul'. To me, the machines that comprise the Throne are nothing more than an oven that burns psykers in order to stoke the flames of the Astronomican. Recently it flickered and after looking into it, the Mechanicus found numerous irreperable flaws. Eventually the light of the Astronomican will die out and then we will see if the Emperor will be re-born or humanity will die.

I read earlier that a few people didn't understand how it was possible to not have invented new technology or progressed at all in ten thousand years. I also felt this way until I started thinking. Why can't we as a real life species and global society remember how to build something like the Pyramids? Or Stonehenge? Or erect the structures on Easter Island? Why can't we remember where we came from ten thousand years ago? We can guess and investigate, but they will only be theories in the end. 
As for the advancement of technology. Imagine our entire planet embroiled in a life-or-death war since shortly after the end of the last Ice Age!!! Either we unite as a species or we die. Either we focus all our efforts on waging war every second of every day, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year or we ALL die. If an irreplaceble repository of knowledge was lost in a battle, would we rather focus on getting it back or securing resources that are always in desperate need? I don't see it as all too far from the truth to have an Imperium that stagnated and is slowly approaching final oblivion. Just like the Emperor on his Golden Throne.

That's all I have for now...thanks!


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

another alias said:


> I've got a question about the emperor: If he hates religion why does he tolerate the imperial cult?


hold on a minute, what makes you think he hates religion right now, in the 41st millennium?

you've made a logical leap that doesn't exist in the background. the Emperor was dead set at eliminating needless superstition at the outset of the great crusade, and currently he is entombed in the Golden Throne, worshipped as a living god. what has happend in between time is far from clear.

if anything i would say that the evidence points to the fact that the Emperor had some kind of epiphany immediately before his 'demise'. in the HH novels there is a clearly growing faith in the Emperor, even when he doesn't have faith in himself. and that faith is not entirely unfounded.

as an aside, i've found the recent idea that the Emporer seems to be a New Atheist, rather disturbing. i'm not really where its supposed to have come from. i realise that there is some precedent in the background for the Emperor wanting to remove cult behavior and the controlling influences of superstitions, but the current vogue for agressive anti-theism just seems horribly out of place. its so unecessary in a in-game universe which doesn't seem to have any concept of monotheism or transcendent gods. it smacks more of a personal crusade than of anything else. i can't really see how it will end without everyone thinking 'WTF? that totally doesn't add up?'


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ender7j said:


> Why can't we as a real life species and global society remember how to build something like the Pyramids? Or Stonehenge? Or erect the structures on Easter Island?


What are you talking about? We know how they were built, they're not exactly super advanced structures in our 21st century eyes.



Ender7j said:


> Why can't we remember where we came from ten thousand years ago?


Because humans began recording history at much later time periods and when a human is born, he has no recollection of anything prior to his birth obviously. Religion has an answer if you are a believer.


There is no reason as to why new tech could not have been born in 10k years, it's simply a plot device to paint the WH40k universe as being an endless cycle of war, death and stagnation.

I'm still of the opinion that GW shouldn't have used 10k years as part of their WH40K story, it's simply too huge a time period and raises too many questions.

They should have stuck with 2000 years or a similar figure, it would make a lot more sense especially in regards to the lack of new tech in the imperium amongst other things.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

admiraldick said:


> hold on a minute, what makes you think he hates religion right now, in the 41st millennium?
> 
> you've made a logical leap that doesn't exist in the background. the Emperor was dead set at eliminating needless superstition at the outset of the great crusade, and currently he is entombed in the Golden Throne, worshipped as a living god. what has happend in between time is far from clear.
> 
> ...


Uhh no the Emperor did not have an epiphany, making him change his mind about religeon.

He got angry at lorgar several times when he worshiped him and this was pre-heresy. 

The only reason the imperial cult is alive and well is because 

a) the emperor cannot communicate other than using tarots and it's such an important statment to make using such a medium 

b) while the emp. was recovering, the high lords took command and installed this cult 

c) the emp. can't revoke this cult because the imperium has been founded around it and it's very structural integrity depends on it 

d) when the emp. wakes up, he most likely will be dealing with the cult issue

I don't know if he counts as being an atheist but he is anti-religion, he has been alive for thousands of years and based his disliking of religion over the things he has witnessed over the countless millennia. He wouldn't suddenly go 'hey religion might not be so bad' based on a few events, especially since he's endured millions of huge events over his years from the feudal times of humanity up through the dark age of technology.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Uhh no the Emperor did not have an epiphany, making him change his mind about religeon.


How do you know? The Admiral's point is entirely valid.



Malus Darkblade said:


> a) the emperor cannot communicate other than using tarots and it's such an important statment to make using such a medium


Says who? Do you know the extent of the Emperor's Abilities? The Emperor can communicate in other ways, note scenes from _Inquisition War_.



Malus Darkblade said:


> d) when the emp. wakes up, he most likely will be dealing with the cult issue


*If.



admiraldick said:


> as an aside, i've found the recent idea that the Emporer seems to be a New Atheist, rather disturbing. i'm not really where its supposed to have come from. i realise that there is some precedent in the background for the Emperor wanting to remove cult behavior and the controlling influences of superstitions, but the current vogue for agressive anti-theism just seems horribly out of place. its so unecessary in a in-game universe which doesn't seem to have any concept of monotheism or transcendent gods. it smacks more of a personal crusade than of anything else. i can't really see how it will end without everyone thinking 'WTF? that totally doesn't add up?'


The Emperor's actions and decrees seems to imply that he was an Atheist, or at least was making himself out to be. He decreed that there were no gods, devils or daemons in the universe, and that the cold light of science had illuminated the way. 

Whether he himself believed this though is another matter, especially considering he knew about the C'tan, Chaos Gods and probably a multitude of other gods. But then again the term _'god'_ is totally ambiguous anyway. 

Spoilers for _A Thousand Sons_:


The Emperor even made bargains and deals with the Chaos Gods & Daemons, but would never face them. (_A Thousand Sons_ Page 176)


The Emperor needed to spread the Imperial Truth, decreeing that no gods or devils existed in order to starve Chaos of power and worship, he needed all of humanity under his iron rule and atheistic in order to challenge the Chaos Gods.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't know if he counts as being an atheist but he is anti-religion, he has been alive for thousands of years and based his disliking of religion over the things he has witnessed over the countless millennia. He wouldn't suddenly go 'hey religion might not be so bad' based on a few events, especially since he's endured millions of huge events over his years from the feudal times of humanity up through the dark age of technology.


No, he may not have simply reverted his feelings regarding Religion, but he may have realised its uttermost importance to the Imperium Post-Heresy, and thus accepted it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How do you know? The Admiral's point is entirely valid.


I don't know. But I am using logic and basing my opinions off of what I've seen of the emperor's actions.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Says who? Do you know the extent of the Emperor's Abilities? The Emperor can communicate in other ways, note scenes from _Inquisition War_.


The scenes from Inquisition War paint the emperor as the wizard of OZ, talking like a nonsensical AI program and was written before the mainstream ideas kicked in. He also stops time so the Custodes don't interfere with his conversation with the inquisitor, an ability that no doubt would have aided him with his battle with Horsus if it was an ability taken seriously by the other more mainstream authors. It would also indicate that his Custodes are robotic and programmed to simply protect the emperor from any physical threats since the emperor had to stop time to simply speak with the inquisitor, and the Custodes being free of thought is something we've all come to not believe.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *If.


As of right now, all fluff points to this happening if I am not mistaken



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, he may not have simply reverted his feelings regarding Religion, but he may have realised its uttermost importance to the Imperium Post-Heresy, and thus accepted it.


If he has a conscious mind post-heresy, I think he accepted it only due to being unable to take action due to his weak state and due to the way the imperium has been set up to incorporate the cult through its inner workings.


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## Ender7j (Jan 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What are you talking about? We know how they were built, they're not exactly super advanced structures in our 21st century eyes.
> 
> Then why is there still debate? I have had access to new material (made within the last few years) that says they might have built huge ramps...others say it was built using a spiralling method, and still others claim that a hybrid of the two methods was used. We still don't know for usre.
> 
> ...


As an novice writer and experienced GM, I agree with you on this as well. For continuity, simple is easy. Thanks for replying as no one can be truly wrong in a conversation like this. k:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

There are several theories as to how they were built yes, because in those times things were not documented as frequently nor with the amount of information we've come to think of as normal.

I agree with your last statement : )


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## waltzmelancholy_07 (Sep 30, 2008)

Did no one read the Adeptus Mechanicus page on Lexicanum?... Or any reference about the Machine Cult?...

I think I found the answer their last year...

The Tech Priests were the sole contributor to the stagnation of technology because they rely too heavily on bits and pieces of STC's and not creating stuff that's totally not of the Dark Technology era because they treat the devices like a religious book... And any attempts are deemed heretical... Hell, even modification of current gadgets, without their consent, is banned... Though some escaped their eyes...

Well, that's that... Correct me I'm wrong:victory:...

Cheers!...


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> I read earlier that a few people didn't understand how it was possible to not have invented new technology or progressed at all in ten thousand years. I also felt this way until I started thinking. Why can't we as a real life species and global society remember how to build something like the Pyramids? Or Stonehenge? Or erect the structures on Easter Island? Why can't we remember where we came from ten thousand years ago? We can guess and investigate, but they will only be theories in the end.


We still don't know exactly how they did it, but that's just because no written records exist and there's hundreds of different ways to do it. It's not like these are arcane secrets that defy our understanding of physics and natural laws. If we wanted to create another pyramid, another stonehenge, or some Easter Island heads, we'd be able to do so much faster, with greater efficiency, and in such a way that they'd last even longer than they have.



> There is no reason as to why new tech could not have been born in 10k years, it's simply a plot device to paint the WH40k universe as being an endless cycle of war, death and stagnation.


There is a reason: it's now allowed. The Imperium has a love-hate relationship with technology. They adore their relics, but they hate innovation. Dismantling the better tech to see how it works would probably be heresy, and constructing any new technology would be a long, tedious, bureaucratic process that would most likely involve the inquisition.



> hold on a minute, what makes you think he hates religion right now, in the 41st millennium?


I don't think the Emperor ever strictly _hated_ religion, per se. I always just got the impression that he knew much more than the average person did. Worship of any entity, good or bad, feeds chaos. Sure, there might be a benevolent, all-powerful deity hiding behind the chaos gods, but the Emperor didn't know, and I doubt he claimed to know. Better to lead humanity down the path of cold, rational thought than to give strength to the emotional monstrosity that is chaos for no tangible benefit.

That being said, I doubt his opinions of religion, whatever they are, have changed. He might see it as more necessary than he previously did, but if the Sensei-Emperor was ever born, I doubt he'd allow continued worship of himself or, indeed, any deity.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't know. But I am using logic and basing my opinions off of what I've seen of the emperor's actions.


But as I said, even though the Emperor preached the Imperial Truth, which claimed that no gods, daemons, devils, afterlife/heaven/hell etc. existed - it doesn't mean that he himself believed that, especially considering he knew of the existence of the Chaos Gods, C'tan and probably many other gods - as to whether he considered these beings gods or not is another matter though.

It is generally accepted though that the Emperor preached the Imperial Truth in order to starve Chaos of direct or indirect worship, and reduce its influence in Real Space.



Malus Darkblade said:


> As of right now, all fluff points to this happening if I am not mistaken


All fluff points to him being reborn upon death? No it doesn't, a few far-fetched theories do. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> If he has a conscious mind post-heresy, I think he accepted it only due to being unable to take action due to his weak state and due to the way the imperium has been set up to incorporate the cult through its inner workings.


Regardless, he has likely accepted that religion is a necessity in the Imperium - If of course hes even aware hes being worshipped as a god.

There is also the theory that faith/belief in him actually empowers him, or his warp presence.


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