# las weapons, kick or no kick?



## rata tat tat (Dec 23, 2008)

My common sense would tell me that most energy weapons, or at least lasers would have no kick (recoil). But I seem to remember reading a story where some old fart general had to climb out his Baneblade and shoot a las-rifle and he was thinking about the bruise that the recoil was going to leave on his shoulder.

Is there some mechanical principal at work in the discharge of the weapon that might cause gases to vent in a relatively violent manner and create recoil?


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## Trandoshanjake (Jul 22, 2008)

They have kick, due to the superheated air expanding near the tip of the barrel.


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## Rahmiel (Jan 3, 2009)

That and I would think that the weapon would be gas or liquid cooled and the vent for the exhaust would kick back, due to the extreme pressure.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

Also another thing that may cause the kick is the machinery inside the lasgun creating the beam


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

They probably do more damage to the person firing than the target, in all honesty!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Apart from RotaryMovement of an Engine (which will be minimal) would not convert into Vertical Oscillating without a Crankshaft, and what's the point of that?

Superheated air could cause minimal kick, but certainly not enough to bruise it - there's no Recoil, so no dampeners. It's not got a projectile, with a propellant. For the purposes of kick, then no. It's literally aim at a target and fire. Provided the sights Second perfect, and you can see that far, you can shoot from the top of a Mountain to the deepest ocean.

Theoretically, you could shoot from one side of the galaxy to the other, but Light does bend. Bah, that's a different one, but there's no kick. The near-instantaneous reaction of light touching the air, will just force the air out of the front - there's no resistance, and it can only go in one way. Unless there's a casting issue with the barrel, there are no weaknesses, and if it's completely smooth (as in Mechanical Principle smooth, no smooth as in smooth to touch, as in Friction rating = 0, and Newtons laws would state that it will carry on forever in such a method), then it won't catch. So I'd say no kick.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

An AT-4 fire a rocket and generates some extreme heat and has no kick. A las of any kind should not have any kick at all, I mean look at GI Joe, there's never kicked. I think Vaz has this one on the nose, the fluff writers just do not know what they are talking about, that or a lasgun is in reality a .22 cal with a large barrel.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

On the subject of las guns, what is deal with the magazine on the las rifle models? Any reasoning behind that in the codex or background stories? Seem's a bit out of place to have a magazine that would carry propellent type rounds on a laser gun...


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Probably a battery pack or some type of gas for the focusing chamber.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Welll energy has got to come from somewhere, it can only be converted, not destroyed. So I'm assuming it's some sort of battery - a chemical compound, or saline formula (which can apparently be renewed via heat), so that get's taken up by the gun. As it's not drained (other than of energy, rather than fuel), I'm guessing it's quite a complicated little thing, with it's own energy, of a two piece engine, requiring a self start ignition. It's not an automatic, spring mechanic projectile launcher, it's a generator.

Pretty fascinating, really. Much moer advanced, if not more powerful, than a Bolter, which is a Hammer firing mechanism, igniting a Shell - i.e. A Mini Artillery Gun.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Vaz, right again. Las weapons are more complicated, but oddly enough far more reliable and have less interacting parts than Bolters.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Pretty fascinating, really. Much moer advanced, if not more powerful, than a Bolter, which is a Hammer firing mechanism, igniting a Shell - i.e. A Mini Artillery Gun.


It has been explained as a battery pack before that you can recharge by heat, light etc. At one point it was told of a platoon recharging them by tossing them in a fire (not advised).

Vaz also Bolters are caseless. That is why an ejection port is not part of cannon and all the diloramas are wrong when they have spent shells laying around. That is unless that changed the fluff, which is possible.


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## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

it's unusual, but even for a weapon more advanced than the boter, it still only has a few moving parts as steel rain says, and seem much more versatile.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

@ Djinn - That's something I've never realised before. Thanks for that. So the rack and slide is just to generate the energy for the hammer to hit the shell, and also to allow the excess gases to escape without loss of accuracy, speed or penetration?

Still, I suppose the artists do go for artistic license. Nothing much cooler than standing blasting away as a case showers around you.


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

I never realised that bolters have no cases. How would that work? If at all.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

That should explain it. Pretty innovative design, and explains how the Imperium can keep up with the need for metal for cases.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Blackhiker said:


> Also another thing that may cause the kick is the machinery inside the lasgun creating the beam


Can't happen due to conservation of momentum. Any added kick would be cancelled out by the machinery coming to a halt long before it caused serious recoil. Kick for a normal gun is caused by the fact a bullet is ejected.

I'd also question the superheated air argument. If that were true the beam would lose coherency within inches and would be even more worthless as a weapon than suggested in fluff. A laser weapon is pretty much predicated on the idea that the beam is not deflected much until it hits the target.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> It has been explained as a battery pack before that you can recharge by heat, light etc. At one point it was told of a platoon recharging them by tossing them in a fire (not advised).
> 
> Vaz also Bolters are caseless. That is why an ejection port is not part of cannon and all the diloramas are wrong when they have spent shells laying around. That is unless that changed the fluff, which is possible.


Aren't bolts basically mini self propelled rockets. The real clever part is in the ammunition rather than the gun.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

*sigh* I have to point out that despite what you see in games, lasrifles win wars. Just because lasrifles suck at killing superhuman killing machines in power armor does not mean that they are bad weapons. You are shooting them at the wrong targets. The most common enemy the Imperium faces is lightly armored humans armed with lasguns or autoguns, NOT SPACE MARINES.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well it still takes a hammer or pin to ignite the propellant. Although the warhead is a delayed explosive, it's still fired exactly like a 7.62 cartridge. So the round it fires is exactly what makes the Bolter so effective, rather than the Bolter being complicated.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

only in Warhammer is a laser weapon outclassed by a crossbow (hahaha at the Eldar)


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

im pretty sure a bolter is more powerful against a las gun lol. but it has the potential to be something feared


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

A Bolter, to be honest, is complete crap. It's just a .75 Calibre Rocket Launcher. A rocket launcher requires it's ammunition, and a Rocket launcher is a Tube (usually with an open rear to allow the exhaust gases to leave without causing a kick), with an electrical ignition to provide the ignition for the rocket.

Ever seen a musket from the 19th Century? It's got 3 main parts - the Frizzen, the Doghead, and the Barrel. It has a cartridge, with two parts - a bullet, which is just a lead ball, and a Gun Powder fuse.

The Fuse is split into two parts - one goes in the frizzen, the rest goes into the Barrel. The Bullet is rammed down on top of the powder in the barrel, and a wad goes over the front to stop it rolling out when firing down hill. This is usually the waxed wrapping.

The rest of the Fuse goes in the Frizzen pan. The frizzen is just made of flint spark ignition and metal floor.

To fire, you drag the doghead back, and the trigger flicks the spring latch, allowing the Doghead to hammer forward. The Doghead is an 'S' shape - this means that when it hits the flint in the frizzen, the flint sparks against the metal floor, igniting the Fuse in the frizzen - which runs along to the fuse in the Barrel. This explodes, forcing the Bullet outwards, as it has nowhere else to go.

The Bolter works in exactly the same way, although the Frizzen and Barrel charge is no contained in the bullet, or 'shell' as it now is.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

wonder why its .75 calibre? i would of thought that a mini-rpg would of been lethal at half that calibre. and another thing, according to fluff the bolter fires in 4 round bursts, 30 rounds to a clip, so where do they keep all of the spare ammo? the bolter mages are pretty chunky and 30 rounds wont last long in a firefight


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

In the backpack.

I really need to stop looking at this thread. I'm beginning to spam it. But I like weapons... bah... That's it, no more replying to this thread for the rest of the day.

*40 mins to go*


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

lawrence96 said:


> bolter fires in 4 round bursts, 30 rounds to a clip


thats impossible for the simple fact that there would be 2 remainding rounds left. do u mean fires in bursts of 3???

also, i would have thought it would have been more then 30 rounds. and also if it does fire in 3 (or 4) round burst, it can also fire full auto according to other fluff.

request for your fluff plz


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition
> 
> That should explain it. Pretty innovative design, and explains how the Imperium can keep up with the need for metal for cases.


It also seems to explain why bolters have an eject port. It's for misfires and to remove unfired shells it seems.


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

.75 that is a huge round. i dont think its crap at all. the damage that that thing would do to you. ok so its not as ammo efficient as a las gun. but it packs much more of a punch. a .50 cal bullet looks like it would hurt. but a rocket propelled verion of that thats bigger and explodes.... i dont care what you say id crap my pants if i say that go off next to me(if i live through the explosion)


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Steel Rain said:


> *sigh* I have to point out that despite what you see in games, lasrifles win wars. Just because lasrifles suck at killing superhuman killing machines in power armor does not mean that they are bad weapons. You are shooting them at the wrong targets. The most common enemy the Imperium faces is lightly armored humans armed with lasguns or autoguns, NOT SPACE MARINES.


I thought Orks would be the most common enemy. Given just how many there are of them.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nope. Orks are found in certain areas mainly - War draws more of them, so the more War in a certain area, the more Orks come, and then the More War, so more Orks, etc.

This means that usually, the Imperial Guard are away fighting against themselves, pacifying worlds, or attacking traitors.

If a Guard unit is posted to an Ork infested planet, then more than likely, there will be more Orks to kill. But law of averages state that if there is 40% of the Warzones by alien menace, and 30% is the Malice of Chaos, then removing Daemons from the Equation, another 30% is against the rebel/secceeded forces of the Imperium, in total, that works out at 60% - and as a lot of Daemons require mortal sacrifice, that means humans are present.

I'll have a read through an Old White Dwarf - it was something like August 05, but I'm not sure - but that was where I got the statistics.

Kendares- you've got the wrong end of the stick.

A Bolter is made effective by it's ammunition. But that's just it. It needs ammunition. Bolters themselves are 'crap', but what they shoot isn't. For example, I can load a 54mm Mortar with a shell made up of Ping Pong Balls. It won't do much. I could load it with high Explosive, or White Phosphorous rounds - it becomes exponentially more dangerous.

A Lasgun, however, just needs a fuel cell, and an Ignition, and it makes it's own ammunition, as you will. The Battery cell will run out of Energy, but it can be recharged, (similar to a Lithium Ion Battery), or Refilled, in dire circumstances. That's what makes the Lasgun 'better' than a Bolter.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> It has been explained as a battery pack before that you can recharge by heat, light etc. At one point it was told of a platoon recharging them by tossing them in a fire (not advised).
> 
> Vaz also Bolters are caseless. That is why an ejection port is not part of cannon and all the diloramas are wrong when they have spent shells laying around. That is unless that changed the fluff, which is possible.


As I understand it, there are a lot of different model bolters and different types of ammunition, everything from highly advanced fully caseless gryojet propelled grenades, to standard cased grenades.

But the majority of bolts are somewhere in between, being a two part gyrojet propelled grenade held within a case and initially launched from the weapon by an explosive charge.

Basically meaning:
Step 1) The Bolt is intially launched from the bolter by an explosive propellent to give it an intially high speed.
Step 2) Gyrojet engages after launch and continues to propell the round forward at a dramatically increased speed.

The reasoning behind this fluff change is two part, namely the presence of the ejector slot on many bolter models, and secondly the fact that a fully gyrojet round would have a much lower intial velocity than most modern rounds before obtaining it's maximum velocity approximately half way through it's flight (if it was allowed to go the full maximum effective range), thus having reduced effeciency at both armor penetration and accuracy (unless it had some built in guidance system, which is mentioned in some of the more advanced rounds).

Hope that helps clear up the mess about bolters.

Now as for Lasguns, wouldn't say better than bolters or rather the entire bolter system, ammunition included. But it is definately more reliable and would require much less feild maintenance. Which for the backward soldier of the 41st millenium might be next to impossible for him to preform on his own.


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## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

what you've got to ask youself is, if you could have one of these weapons today, which one would you have? The bolter with a full clip of standard pattern bolts, or a lasgun with a fully charged power cell? Well, seeing as you can't fire a bolter without the recoil taking your arms off, and that's if you could pull the trigger! 

I prefer the lasgun, any day. The reliability, the versability, the ruggedness and the rechargeable cell.

P.S and the guard fight rebels in civil wars more than they do orks, way more planets have had a time when its been under civil war, trying to break away from the imperium. but comparitively, very few planets have had guard v ork fighting.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Vaz said:


> A Lasgun, however, just needs a fuel cell, and an Ignition, and it makes it's own ammunition, as you will. The Battery cell will run out of Energy, but it can be recharged, (similar to a Lithium Ion Battery), or Refilled, in dire circumstances. That's what makes the Lasgun 'better' than a Bolter.


Except a bolt round nearly always kills a human and does horrific damage to everything short of a Titan. A lasbolt can kill a person but often will require several shots.

Ammunition isn't a problem because SMs do not miss all that often.


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## necroman (Jun 13, 2008)

i would take a bolter, would rather shoot it and fall down than not be able to tear into a gaunts shell.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Unless the AdMech purposefully put some mechanism that generates "kick" for no other reason that shits n giggles into the lasgun, there shouldn't be any kick. Light has no mass, or at least, has infinitesimal mass and wouldn't generate equal but opposite force.

Newton FTW?!!?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Galus - physics laws also state that Energy can't be created or destroyed, only converted. So with Light hitting air molecules, they are going to expand due to the increase in temperature. But I don't see how that effects kick, as there is no propellant or hammer to slide.

And G_Morgan, we're talking about a Lasgun and a Bolter, not the ammunition. Ask me (theoretically) to dismantle a Bolter, or a Lasgun, and I'd always take the latter.

No - you have the wrong end of the stick/gun.

A Bolter is a simple weapon. When you go to a fairground, and there is the strength test, with the Sledgehammer, that's what a Bolter is, but with a slightly more complicated loading system.

A Lasgun, while not as powerful, is completely self reliant. It's ammunition is rechargeable, has no kick, and has no decrease in accuracy at longer ranges, spin, drop, or wind to move it. If they could make a Lasgun to be as powerful as a Lascannon, they would. But it's a better system than a Boltgun, and ANY Small Arms for today.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

As far as kick is concerned there isn't any with lasers.

Especially once you start talking about advanced lasers that don't have any interaction with atmospheres at all. Some advanced laser systems, like FEL (Free Electron Laser) systems, allow you to "tune" the wavelength of the emitted light to something that the atmosphere doesn't absorb. This means there is virtually no interaction. For other systems, they simply design the laser such that the produced wavelength doesn't interact well. This also dramatically reduces the degradation of the laser at the target, ensuring that most of the energy reaches the target.

As to those interactions that would occur (like if you used a red wavelength) what happens is that the air is ionized and a plasma results (a process called "blooming"). However, even in these cases there is no recoil since you are affecting such a small portion of the air (0.1 mm is considered huge in laser terms) that the amount of plasma produced is inconsequential.


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## LimitingFactor (Jan 11, 2009)

"A Lasgun, while not as powerful, is completely self reliant. It's ammunition is rechargeable, has no kick, and has no decrease in accuracy at longer ranges, spin, drop, or wind to move it. If they could make a Lasgun to be as powerful as a Lascannon, they would. But it's a better system than a Boltgun, and ANY Small Arms for today."

Better than what?

I agree its a great system for the points you list above ,however if you shot at a charging Cultist with a laz rifle at a range of 5 meters and scored a hit there is a chance that the cultists momentum will carry him into close combat range - if he is not fully killed outright by your shot he will kill you with his chain sword.

Try the same thing again ,this time using a Barret 50 cal or ak47 (edited because i screwed up here and said ak74 eeeeek! ) , just about any 7.62 modern rifle (not your 5.56 nato) and the cultists charge will halt as he is blown off his feet ,backwards a few meters to land prone.

If you try again , using a nato 5.56 round , the cultists momentum may not be halted , it may be slowed, but by the time the cultist is in hand to hand range your little 5.56 bullet has performed a dancing act inside his body , smashing his bones, cutting off blood vessels.

Try the same thing . Now your using a boltgun. The cultist takes one hit ....perhaps a double tap and he is cut in half , and thrown backwards by the blasts.

-----

If the cultist was wearing a soaking wet great coat .. a 5.56 bullet may bounce off.

Every other system will still perform normaly.

A slower ,smaller bullet system (like auto pistol or todays smg) would be better for hostage situations where lazers and the other systems may kill the wrong people.


Remember the future version of the barret....exitus rifle .That is my fav weapon system and coupled with the pistol is perfect for any role.


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## Huffy (Nov 25, 2008)

ak47 is 7.62, ak74 is more like 5.59 i think i don't want to wiki it yet
so ak74 prob wouldn't stop a cultist


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## Mivarlocht (Jan 26, 2009)

A small laser doesn't have kick and certainly has a high speed. I'm no physics major, but I think a larger blast with slightly slowed speed would still lack kick.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Damage done by laser systems differ significantly from damage done by solid rounds. A laser cuts a hole, and it is VERY small hole. And if it just poked a hole, you probably wouldn't even notice the damage, unless the hole managed to hit something truly vital (defined differently for each different diameter laser).

A laser will self cauterizes as it penetrates, so no bleeding damage is done. It's FAST, so no real heat transfer damage is done. The area is very small, so it effects a small amount of your body which means practically no shock, practically no tissue or organ damage.

To actually cause some damage you need a lateral or horizontal cut. This can be made in any number of ways (say if the target is in movement relative to your laser, or if you mount a 1 degree swivel on the end of the gun). But without some kind of motion it is pretty tough to cause enough damage to matter

That is one of the disadvantages (but not a big one) of using this kind of system in real life.


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## LimitingFactor (Jan 11, 2009)

Huffy , your right about that ak74 not being 7.62.

It is = 5.45 mm , even smaller than our nato rounds :scare:


my bad , having fired the pair of them , 47 and 74 (15 odd years ago now) i should have remembered! I think that day i was amazed by the remington pump action shotgun and forgot everything i was supposed to learn!


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