# Deathwatch army composition for tourney



## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Hiya.
So i got a tournament coming up shortly and its only 1000pts.
I'm still trying to figure out a decent army for my tournamet. Last time i went to one in my area i got smashed because i couldn't close the distance or do enough damage on tanks.
So far i know there is a Black Templar player rocking literally 1000pts of bikes, A tau player with some devilfish and alot of troop, a nid player no idea what he's using, a necron player who's taking some mean stuff from what i've heard and 1-2 IG players, Skitarii, Grey Knight and Ork, possibly more 

Thus far this is what my current list has, open to any ideas on what i should change/keep etc based on what i know i'm up against, still kinda new so anything helps.
The list is 996pts
HQ: 
Watch Master/w Dominus Aegis relic

Troop:
1 Vet squad(2 infernus cannons, 2 frag, 1 Black shield/w SS and Heavy thunder Hammer, 1 Sarge w/ SS and Xenophase blade, 2 Deathwatch Shotguns)
1 Terminator /w Cyclone missile launcher
1 Devestator Squad (Detachment) 2 Grav Cannons /w Amps, 1 Lascannon and 2 normal marines.

Heavy Support:
1 Corvus Blackstar
-Twin linked lascannons
-Blackstar Missile Launcher
- Hurricane Bolter
- Infernum Halo Launcher

The veteran squad and terminator will allow me use either a Aquila Kill team or a Furor kill team, whilst the devestator squad and Corvus Black star should be able to take care of most Tanks i'll encounter (Depending on rolls obvs) And the Corvus will also be a fairly large issue for most players especially with the re-roll on fail jinxs. The watch master has the Dominus Aegis so that He can grant a 4+ invul to eithe squad depending on which one is more important based on what i versus. If my list is completely stupid, fine, needs improving refining lemme know all input is welcome and appreciated


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Okay, I personally think you went nuts on the upgrades 

Your Veteran Squad squeezes some 350 points in, I think, 8 models. Just because you CAN upgrade a model doesn't mean you HAVE to. Leave some 'normal' Veterans around that you can afford to lose. A bolter with Special Issue ammo is a very good weapon to begin with. Something like 5 Veterans with 2 DW Frag Cannons is distinctly more affordable and a very good close-range hunting squad. Toss in a storm shield if you want to catch low-AP hits.

For extra shenanigans, remember you can trade in the CCW instead of the bolter (and if you have no specified melee weapon, you're still assumed to have one!). This means your Veterans can be armed with Boltgun/DW Shotgun at no additional cost which lets you pick from an insanely good number of options at close(ish) range.

You can buy two of these for the price of your current Veteran squad and still have points left over.... So proposed, alter to taste:

Veterans x5
- 3 with Deathwatch Shotgun & Boltgun with Special Issue Ammo (alternatively, only 2 of these and one with Boltgun and Storm Shield instead, or toss in a Meltagun for dealing with vehicles)
- 2 with Frag Cannon ( & Boltgun, which you'll only ever use if you somehow find yourself in the 24" to 30" bracket)

While I can see the use for borrowing an SM Devastator squad, they'll keep you from using the Black Spear Strike Force (I think you're effectively Unbound right now) which seems costly for the benefit.


EDIT: Note, using the Watch Master only for giving a unit 4++ is a waste of his points. He needs to be out there clobbering people.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm kind of confused about the devestator squad and is that a lone terminator?

The devestator squad is part of the deathwatch force or is it a separate detachment?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

darkreever said:


> I'm kind of confused about the devestator squad and is that a lone terminator?
> 
> The devestator squad is part of the deathwatch force or is it a separate detachment?


Lone Terminator, yep. That's a Deathwatch thing. You can buy single Termies and give them pretty much any (both shooty and assault) Terminator weapon you want. Mind you, all DW models come at a premium in points.

Still, the Terminator is eligible to be used in 3 of the Kill Team formations (which can only have a limited number of models), which can optionally then fit in OTHER formations or be used as-is in the BSSF. Assembling a Black Spear Strike Force is like a Matryoshka doll of various bonuses.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Cheers for the advice.

I've never actually thought of just running them with boltguns with special ammo i probs should spread out upgrades so i can have more bodies over one large group.

In regards to doing the Shotgun/boltgun combo i did some research on that and turns out you aren't actually allowed to do DW Shotgun w/ Boltgun this was clarified in the Deathwatch Errata so that sucked.

The only real benefit with the Black spear formation is giving all troops the deepstrike rule and re-roll on the warlords table. Given i still won't be able to field many men in total cause DW are point heavy i'd rather avoid using deepstrike.

If i remove the devestators i'd be mainly relying on my corvus for long range anti tank support and there won't be much terrain being used so if i wanted to get closer with metla to get the two dice or close in with a hammer etc it'd probs end badly.

Though yeah given the Watch master is a god at clobbering people to death it would probs be more effective to keep him out on his own, doing what he does best.

You've definitely given me some food for thought i'm gonna go and mess around with the listing abit and see what comes out thanks.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

darkreever said:


> I'm kind of confused about the devestator squad and is that a lone terminator?
> 
> The devestator squad is part of the deathwatch force or is it a separate detachment?


Like he said basically i can have 1 terminator on his lonesome and can add an additional 4 if i wanted to make a full squad. Or i can add a terminator to a veteran squad and make them into a kill team to give me some great re-rolls, like the furor kill team which allows all failed wounds and armor pens against units with the Troop battlefield roll to be re-rolled (RIP Ork/Nid hoards). There are other restrictions for these kill teams but essentially i can field Bikes, Terminators and Vanguard Veterans (Assault marines) As singular models with the option of adding more to form full squads or just attach them to veteran squads and so that they can make kill teams.

Hopefully that cleared it up and didn't confuse you even more :grin2:


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Potential new list after mixing some stuff

HQ:
Watch Master (no relic)

Troop:
4 Veteran Squads (2 frag cannons, 2 infernus, 3 Stalker pattern, 3 DW Shotguns, 10 Normal bolters)
2 Terminators (1 Default, 1 Cyclone Launcher

Heavy Support:
Corvus Blackstar (All previous upgrades mentioned

EDIT: I don't actually have the codex on me so i don't know if thats over the point limit or not but from what i remember of the points cost i think its around 1000pts


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> Cheers for the advice.
> 
> I've never actually thought of just running them with boltguns with special ammo i probs should spread out upgrades so i can have more bodies over one large group.


Remember, your basic Veterans are essentially Sternguard. Special Issue ammo is fantastic. 
Dragonfire rounds are good at clearing people out of cover, as well as removing things that rely on Jink saves (even glancing AV10 flyers), 
Hellfire will wound those 6+ Toughness targets normal bolter fire can't handle (and remember, you're probably rerolling ones!), 
Kraken is relatively subtle - Only slight improvement to AP and range over normal bolter rounds, which still works great on most 4+ (such as Fire Warriors and their drones, or Skitarii)
Last but definitely not least, Vengeance rounds. Slightly lower range, but AP3. Downside is that they occasionally explode, but if you're using the right Mission Tactics? You reroll ones to hit. The Deathwatch can use weapons that Get Hot with FAR less risk. 



Knighty said:


> In regards to doing the Shotgun/boltgun combo i did some research on that and turns out you aren't actually allowed to do DW Shotgun w/ Boltgun this was clarified in the Deathwatch Errata so that sucked.


Whoops. In my defense, I don't actually PLAY mine much. Sisters remain my primary army 



Knighty said:


> The only real benefit with the Black spear formation is giving all troops the deepstrike rule and re-roll on the warlords table. Given i still won't be able to field many men in total cause DW are point heavy i'd rather avoid using deepstrike.


The main benefit in my eyes is the additional Mission Tactics switch, though the (near-obligatory) Warlord Trait reroll is also important. With a usual BS of 4, Rerolling 1s To Hit means you're rerolling half your misses (and helps avoid Gets Hot, as noted before). As for Deep Strike... that's what drop pods are for :grin: 



Knighty said:


> Though yeah given the Watch master is a god at clobbering people to death it would probs be more effective to keep him out on his own, doing what he does best.


He's vulnerable on his own (esp. to S8 weaponry). Launch him from a Veteran squad or something similar  If you're not sure he can earn his points back, replace him. A Chaplain will (for DW only slightly, it must be said) boost a squad's melee with Zealot, or better yet toss in one or two Librarians (2 ML2 libs will get you 5-10 psyker dice a turn, and you have a wide selection of Disciplines to choose from).


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> Remember, your basic Veterans are essentially Sternguard. Special Issue ammo is fantastic.
> Dragonfire rounds are good at clearing people out of cover, as well as removing things that rely on Jink saves (even glancing AV10 flyers),
> Hellfire will wound those 6+ Toughness targets normal bolter fire can't handle (and remember, you're probably rerolling ones!),
> Kraken is relatively subtle - Only slight improvement to AP and range over normal bolter rounds, which still works great on most 4+ (such as Fire Warriors and their drones, or Skitarii)
> Last but definitely not least, Vengeance rounds. Slightly lower range, but AP3. Downside is that they occasionally explode, but if you're using the right Mission Tactics? You reroll ones to hit. The Deathwatch can use weapons that Get Hot with FAR less risk.


I never actually thought of the special ammo and what they could do with that, wow thinking on it you're right bolters with special ammo are great.






Shandathe said:


> The main benefit in my eyes is the additional Mission Tactics switch, though the (near-obligatory) Warlord Trait reroll is also important. With a usual BS of 4, Rerolling 1s To Hit means you're rerolling half your misses (and helps avoid Gets Hot, as noted before). As for Deep Strike... that's what drop pods are for :grin:


I have a health appreciation on the re-rolls with gets hot weapons, saved my ass a few times. I don't actually have any drop pods sadly so i'd be actually deploying them without it so thats why i'd rather avoid it unless it proved to be a smart idea when up against other stuff



Shandathe said:


> A Chaplain will (for DW only slightly, it must be said) boost a squad's melee with Zealot, or better yet toss in one or two Librarians (2 ML2 libs will get you 5-10 psyker dice a turn, and you have a wide selection of Disciplines to choose from).


I sadly don't own a Chaplain either and only a sole Librarian. When it comes to melee i mainly try and keep my Black shields with the SS and Heavy thunder hammes alive, seeing as most times they are in small squads he usually gets the double attacks and another attack for charging so he's hitting 5 times with the monster S10 AP2 Insta killing hammer of all mighty cheese, Get him to attack something he gets re-rolls to failed wounds/armor pens with and its truly a devestating combo especially if mixed with a Sarge with xenophase blade against HQ's with the re-roll on successful invuls.

I'm confident in my watch masters ability to survive and get his points worth. I've done a fair few 2000-2500pt games and some lower point games and everytime he's come out alive and on top. (He's even gone up against a sizable Tyranid hoard single handed and come out on top which earned him much renown and love from myself). He's yet to fail me thus far so i'll keep him


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> Potential new list after mixing some stuff
> 
> HQ:
> Watch Master (no relic)
> ...


Firepower looks good. Note you could still kit one squad out for CC with a hammer to go with the Watch Master  Getting to the other side of the battlefield on foot though... that's going to be an utter pain. Hrmm. No drop pods, suppose one squad could deploy from the Corvus... If you have one available, finding some points for a Rhino or Razorback would help immensely, I think. Rhino's probably plenty, seeing as how you can fire the heavy assault weapons from the hatch.

Mind you, I like my infantry mechanized. YMMV.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> Firepower looks good. Note you could still kit one squad out for CC with a hammer to go with the Watch Master  Getting to the other side of the battlefield on foot though... that's going to be an utter pain. Hrmm. No drop pods, suppose one squad could deploy from the Corvus... If you have one available, finding some points for a Rhino or Razorback would help immensely, I think. Rhino's probably plenty, seeing as how you can fire the heavy assault weapons from the hatch.
> 
> Mind you, I like my infantry mechanized. YMMV.


In my army i have enough units to make 7 Veteran Squads. One devestator Squad, 9 Termies, 4 Vanguard, 5 bikes, 1 Watch Master, 2 Captains, 1 librarian, 2 Razorbacks (1 twin lascannon 1 Lascannon, twinlinked plasma gun) A dreadnough with multi melta and of course the corvus Black star. Just to give you an idea of what i can mess around with for this listing.

Problem with adding a guy with hammer, and other close combat weapons is that in the end they end up being worth like a squad and a half on their own which really drops my body count, on top of that to get enough points for the razorback i'd have to drop a infernus and frag cannon and a stalker just to get it.

Also now i got the codex with me, the list i got there actually ends up being like 1100pts so i'd have to drop some more again :shok:

Essentially some things i feel i need to have is the Corvus as it'll be able to handle troop hoards with the cluster launchers and twin hurricane bolters, plus it can aid in any tanks with the twin linked lascannon and is able to survive for abit longer with the re-roll jink. I also want to take my Watch Master with me as he is the icon of inspiration, the go to guy when it comes to extruding sheer greatness to cheer up any depressed deathwatch player's day. Other than that i think i should take at least some terms and 2 either frags or infernus so i can swap between some kill team setups as needed without actually editing my list then and there (which i'm pretty sure is an illegal thing to do barring having some pts over). Other than that really anything goes for what i'd do

EDIT X2: So really by taking those things with 2 squads (all bolters asides from the 2 heavy weapons) the two termies all default kit, the Watch master and Corvus with relevant upgrades will cost 740pts, no including any additonal stalker patter guns, flamers, meltas, rocket launchers, Black shields etc.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Alright so after some more thinking this is what my current new list looks like.
I'm thinking i'll still rock the devestators. I'll still be able to change my mission tatic one extra time because of the watch master so i'm not too worried about losing the other. As said before i'm not exactly for doing deepstrikes with the setup so the only thing i'm missing is the re-roll warlord trait (And from what i'm being told we may have the option to actually just choose the trait so i'm not really gaining much from doing BSSF formation) and the benefit is that i now have a squad to aid in anti tank.

HQ:
Watch master

Troop:
2 Veteran Squads (1 6 man squad)
- 2 Either Infernus or Frag cannons (swap the combinations out based on what i fight)
- 3 Stalker Pattern Boltguns
- 1 SS and Heavy Thunder Hammer
- 1 Heavy Thunder Hammer
- 5 Bolters
2 Terminators with basic roll outs
1 Devestators
- 2 Grav Cannons (Either this or the lascannons, they do alright with 5 attacks against stuff so i means they have more versatility than two lascannons)
- 3 Bolters

Heavy Support
Corvus Blackstar
- Hurricane Bolter
- Infernum Halo Launcher
- Blackstar Cluster Launcher

With the setup i have the ability to do either Aquila, Furor or Malleus Kill teams so i have some ability to counter whats likely to be my threat. As always if you think there is anything stupid or should be changed let me know. The tournament starts on sunday so i got plenty of time to make changes.
Thanks in advance.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I'm actually surprised you're not supposed to take everyone on with the exact same list. Anyway, good luck, let us know the results


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> I'm actually surprised you're not supposed to take everyone on with the exact same list. Anyway, good luck, let us know the results


Ahaha you aren't wrong. Its not set in stone 100% and the list has changed(though slightly now i look at it XD) with the squads upgrades and body count so the list is better than it was (and now knowing that i have really not be utilising the special ammo with normal bolter wielding SM's. I still might change it to take an extra squad to add up body count). I'll make sure to let you know how it goes on sunday and if i have brought honour or dishonour to the Imperium. Thanks for all the advice, tips and rule clearing (on the other thread) its much appreciated.

Hopefully the changes will help in the long run


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> I'm actually surprised you're not supposed to take everyone on with the exact same list. Anyway, good luck, let us know the results


Well i prmised i would tell you the results and so in short, the deathwatch got completely and utterly tabled. Out of every game i've played with them at this tourney was by far the most disgusting defeats i've ever had. I played a total of 3 games out of 4 (I sat out first round due to uneven numbers).

My first match saw me fight a entire Genestealer Cult Army. I gained first turn for myself but that really did very little for me. His deployment saw almost 3 units arriving within 3" of mine and alot more around 6". They even got to shoot, that's right shoot in the deployment phase of all dam things which saw me lose 3 models of the bat. I got my own back in my movement phase wiping out 2 units straight up (gotta love the underslung heavy flamers), and almost wiping a third but sadly i just could not do enough to all the units arrayed against me and the following assault phase saw my two squads (and m master) fighting 2 or 3 units a piece which resulted in a majority of my army wiped in his first turn. Second turn i got my corvus on, little help that did. By the end of his second turn he had finished off the survivors, my watch master leaving me with only my corvus. With all of his god dam go to grounds, invul saves and other such things i just could not get enough wounds with the amount of damage i was pouring in so i lost, my 2pts to his 12.

My second game was seriously just an absolute slaughter even worse than what happened in my first game. I was fighting a tau running a farsight enclave setup. I got first turn again, and again little did that do to help. I moved my guys into cover thinking that'd be smart, opened fire onto one of his walker dudes and got myself 2 wounds on him and one wound on another large walker dude. His shooting phase saw 2 markerlight squads negate all cover and a Large blast marker wipe the whole squad instantly. Now the other walker dude which is apparently a forgeworld one jumped like 30" in his movement phase and wiped all but my vet sarge with a Strength 7? (i think) AP fucking 2 flamer, ignore cover and some other such bs rule completely wiping everything. and his shit- sorry shot gun cleaned up my remaining unit. my watch master, still alive, unarmed and enraged by this disgusting loss of deathwatch lives threw himself at the accursed mech and scored 3 wounds against him taking him down to 2 hull points. My corvus came in as well but due to the sheer amount of marker lights got shredded instantly due to removing any jink saves. Next turn saw me reduce the walker to one hull point and right where it seems i would at least get one kill the fucking thing Jumps straight into reserves leaving him open to fire from literally everything else.... He died.

My final game though it should be noted was due less to bull shit stuff and more just a combination of god like and horrible rolls.

Fighting a grey Knight setup rocking 2 Dread Knights 1 Grey Knight Term squad with an attached Chapter Master and a Librarian thrown into the listing for good measure. Once again i got first turn and i actually managed to explode a dread knight into nothingness and get a kill on one of the terminators. On his turn he tried to cast gate of infinity, knowing i had to deny that threw all my dice (4) at it and failed to deny it by one dice that was a god dam 5. So yeah his squad teleport right in front of the squad which killed the dread knight and wiped it out in that assault phase. My turn 2 saw me throw my other unit into his librarian whilst my Watch Master charged into the Chapter Master's squad with vengeance in his heart, i declared a challenge and the god dam chapter master refuses me which saw 3 of his terminators die by his hand (Take that ya smug bastard). The fight with the librarian was a stalemate as both him and my sarge were stuck in a challenge. His turn 2 saw his other dread knight join the fray with the librarian (Should be noted i failed the reserves roll for my corvus). Dread knight wiped out the unit, The watch master got reduced to 2 wounds from the resulting melee. Got my corvus in on my third turn and tried to fire at everything i could, unable to confirm wounds (His invul roll luck was truly blessed by the emperor). My watch master reduced his Chapter Master down to 3 wounds but died from returning attacks. I flew my corvus to the opposite corner of the map, switched to hover and made my final stand. Didn't actually get anymore kills and he died.

So all in all the day was a complete slaughter for the old deathwatch and make me reconsider my life choices, i've got two land raiders and another librarian coming sometime soon so hopefully for the next one i can hold my own because Emperor mein god that was some bullshit XD. I truly wish i had a better report to give you after the help you gave me in realizing rules and abilities i never even knew i had (I did a fair amount more research after the last post and realized alot of rules i wasn't using effectively) But alas it was not to be. I think my final points count was like 3 maybe 4, possibly 2, you know imma just go with shit :grin2:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

First, I'm assuming the units you posted above are what you brought (I'd normally say list but I have no idea how your squads are actually kitted out, just what you have available.)

Which means a watch captain with no upgrades, something that was strongly advised against, a pair of terminators with no upgrades (so why bring them?) Those are three easy targets for first blood, kill points, and warlord kill in most games.



Knighty said:


> His deployment saw almost 3 units arriving within 3" of mine and alot more around 6". They even got to shoot, that's right shoot in the deployment phase of all dam things


Thats called cult ambush, a rule that can cause a lot of damage very quickly. I'm assuming your opponent was running the cult insurrection detachment and had a subterranean uprising formation in order to maximize his chances of getting the best results. (Basically that formation lets the units it contains roll 2 dice for cult ambush rather than 1.)



Knighty said:


> fighting 2 or 3 units a piece which resulted in a majority of my army wiped in his first turn.


The strength of the genestealer cult army is the sheer numbers they can bring to bear. A unit of 5 acolyte hybrids is the price of a deathwatch terminator and comes with 15-20 S4 attacks with rending. Metamorph squads can take whips, making them I7, again with 3-4 rending attacks.

Against genestealer cults, range, ignoring cover, and focus fire are the best tactics.



Knighty said:


> opened fire onto one of his walker dudes and got myself 2 wounds on him and one wound on another large walker dude.


Initially I thought a crisis suit and then a riptide, but then your next bit..



Knighty said:


> His shooting phase saw 2 markerlight squads negate all cover and a Large blast marker wipe the whole squad instantly. Now the other walker dude which is apparently a forgeworld one jumped like 30" in his movement phase and wiped all but my vet sarge with a Strength 7? (i think) AP fucking 2 flamer, ignore cover and some other such bs rule completely wiping everything.


I don't know what was using a large blast weapon, especially with ap3, but the forgeworld unit was the Y'vahra battlesuit. Its a forgeworld variant of the riptide battlesuit found in the regular codex, that has the ability to move like a flying monstrous creature (though it cannot do that for two consecutive turns), can jump into ongoing reserve, and has a torrent flamer that can either be ap3 or ap2 with gets hot (both are S6.) Its also 230 points and a fast attack choice in a tau empire army, so I'm not sure if your opponent was able to use it in a farsight enclave army.



Knighty said:


> scored 3 wounds against him taking him down to 2 hull points.


Bringing it down to 2 wounds, as a battlesuit its not considered a vehicle. I will say I am kind of surprised you were able to do that, since its T6 and has a save the equivalent of your terminators.



Knighty said:


> So yeah his squad teleport right in front of the squad which killed the dread knight and wiped it out in that assault phase.


Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but gate of infinity is treated like deep striking, so how did that squad charge in the same turn?



Knighty said:


> So all in all the day was a complete slaughter for the old deathwatch and make me reconsider my life choices,


To be fair, and nothing against you, but you did go into a tourny with a non optimized list that you did not appear to know that well. Thats the kind of place where you really learn how much you know, and how good you are at adapting to situations.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> My first match saw me fight a entire Genestealer Cult Army.


Yeah, Cult Ambush deployment is bullshit, though can go poorly for the Cult.  Looks like he got some godly rolls if he pulled it off like that. Note it was worse on you due to DWs limited model count. Teleporting large blobs of cheap gribblies are pretty much nullifies any chance of getting a good position on him.

There's only a handful of ways to prepare for this (like taking Servo Skulls or Inquisitor Greyfax, as it mostly runs by Infiltrate rules) but you need to know it's coming beforehand for that  Deathwatch itself doesn't really have any really good counters handy, though Templates should clear a lot of it up. Anyway, at that point the only thing you can do is shoot every weapon you can (and charge any Neophytes you safely can).



Knighty said:


> My second game was seriously just an absolute slaughter even worse than what happened in my first game. I was fighting a tau running a farsight enclave setup.


A poor matchup, as their shooting will thin your already thin numbers... And as you found out, if you're visible, you can be shot. Only real way to fight Tau is good use of LOS blockers (assuming those are even ON the terrain) and blowing them up in small parts, and/or pulling off a good multi-pronged assault.

Enemy FW walker dude was presumably this one. Assault 2 S6 AP2 flamer with 6" torrent, that model was a quarter of his points and he had another one, apparently. Dunno what type it was, but even the 'normal' XV104 Riptide is somewhat under-costed, and having two of the big guys in a 1000 points is pretty cheesy. Nothing you can do about the enemy list though. Best tip I have it to always ask if you don't know what a specific enemy can do, especially big and mean-looking ones.




Knighty said:


> My final game though it should be noted was due less to bull shit stuff and more just a combination of god like and horrible rolls.


Actually, there's some bullshit there. He's not actually allowed to Gate of Infinity across the board and Assault in the same turn, as Gate of Infinity uses Deep Strike rules. Grey Knights also have Personal Teleporters for rapid relocation, but those too will not allow for an assault the same turn. Shooting alone could have done a good amount of damage still, but as I'm guessing that was your Grav-cannon Devastator squad being removed from play, that's a big one for this game.




Knighty said:


> So all in all the day was a complete slaughter for the old deathwatch and make me reconsider my life choices, i've got two land raiders and another librarian coming sometime soon so hopefully for the next one i can hold my own because Emperor mein god that was some bullshit XD. I truly wish i had a better report to give you after the help you gave me in realizing rules and abilities i never even knew i had (I did a fair amount more research after the last post and realized alot of rules i wasn't using effectively) But alas it was not to be. I think my final points count was like 3 maybe 4, possibly 2, you know imma just go with shit :grin2:


FWIW, small elite forces are actually among the hardest armies to learn to play, especially at high level. An IG player can lose a Guardsmen squad and just shrug as he's got another 50 where those came from... the fewer models you have, the more you need to get the most out of each. Make sure you check the rules as you play friendly games, both for your own army and the enemy's as knowledge very much IS power. You'll find you'll do better the more you play, so... play more :grin2:


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

My actual final list was different to what was listed. I did still have the devastators but had them attached to a unit. My watch master actually doesn't come with upgrades asides from relics and i took an ossesus key relic on him so i could get some additional bonus against vehicles if any go close or i managed to do (turned out to be useless as i never lasted long enough).



darkreever said:


> Against genestealer cults, range, ignoring cover, and focus fire are the best tactics.


I had only two units plus my watch master, i did try to focus fire on all of the closest models but i couldn't kill enough of them and as they were 3" away at the start and many more 6" i couldn't keep them at range, i believe only my corvus had ignore cover weapons and by the time that came on it was too late. 



darkreever said:


> so I'm not sure if your opponent was able to use it in a farsight enclave army.


I can't really say for absolutle sure as i'm not a tau player but i'm fairly sure he did use it as farsight enclave.




darkreever said:


> Bringing it down to 2 wounds, as a battlesuit its not considered a vehicle. I will say I am kind of surprised you were able to do that, since its T6 and has a save the equivalent of your terminators.


Yeah my bad i meant wounds not hull points, i keep thinking vehicles because their mechs XD. Yeah the guardian spear is pretty great with the AP 2 and the 5 attacks on the inital charge.



darkreever said:


> Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but gate of infinity is treated like deep striking, so how did that squad charge in the same turn?


I assumed he was able to do because of relentless? I'm proberly wrong about that but i didn't know much about the power asides from hey i can teleport right in front of you so i didn't really contest when he said he was charging in that same turn. :/ 




darkreever said:


> To be fair, and nothing against you, but you did go into a tourny with a non optimized list that you did not appear to know that well. Thats the kind of place where you really learn how much you know, and how good you are at adapting to situations.


I mean you raise a fair point. I did mess around with the list abit more before i decided it and did go through all my rules alot more and found out about alot of abilities and rules which i wasn't using in previous matches and i was using them in the tounrey. My main issue with the matches was i couldn't deal with so many targets in front of me with just the two squads, and the tau was well... that Large Blast and the Flamer walker which i couldn't focus down as i didn't have line of sight. I did learn a fair bit of just what to expect when you go into these kinda things and hopefully will be able to regroup and avenge the fallen in the next one, was only a small $10 tournament so its not like i lost out on it XD.



Shandathe said:


> Deathwatch itself doesn't really have any really good counters handy, though Templates should clear a lot of it up.


Yeah my flamers did do a great job of wiping whole units when they were firing but on his turn he made sure to wipe out the flamers, not hard to do when they are at the front.



Shandathe said:


> Only real way to fight Tau is good use of LOS blockers


The game wasn't done at any officel GW stores and was done at a local hobby store, they had some LOS blockers but not enough to cover every board effectively so i didn't really have much option for LOS blocks on the board i was on.




Shandathe said:


> Best tip I have it to always ask if you don't know what a specific enemy can do .He's not actually allowed to Gate of Infinity across the board and Assault in the same turn, as Gate of Infinity uses Deep Strike rules


Yeah given what happened during that i'll definetly asking to see the rules for shit like this in future because i didn't really contest anything much, mainly because i don't know all the rules for warhammer as well, still getting back into the swing of all the different rules. Like i had the guy i fought the Genestealer cult remove models that were "closest to the firing unit" when i used blast markers on some of his units when they weren't even under the marker, i did think that was wrong and its under the blast marker only and tried to argue that but ended up just accepting it, though i looked it up after and turns out i was right.





Shandathe said:


> both for your own army and the enemy's as knowledge very much IS power. You'll find you'll do better the more you play, so... play more


If only i could have all the xeno weaknesses downloaded into my brain like they do lol. Yeah i did have some idea with the genestealers and what they would do as i read my uncles codex on em as he was thinking of starting an army of his own and some it stuck with the infiltrate.

I suffered a pretty crushing defeat but i still have faith in my deathwatch and i'll defenetly keep playing games with them. I might actually invest in some IG troop based units so i can have more bodies so i'm not as easy to just wipe out like i was, i'll see how the wallet is feeling XD.

Cheers for the feedback as always, apologies for the Trump sized wall of text


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> Yeah given what happened during that i'll definetly asking to see the rules for shit like this in future because i didn't really contest anything much, mainly because i don't know all the rules for warhammer as well, still getting back into the swing of all the different rules. Like i had the guy i fought the Genestealer cult remove models that were "closest to the firing unit" when i used blast markers on some of his units when they weren't even under the marker, i did think that was wrong and its under the blast marker only and tried to argue that but ended up just accepting it, though i looked it up after and turns out i was right.


That's actually correct. In the rules for Blast, you'll find: "Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models of the attacking unit."

Though if it's also a Barrage weapon, the shots instead come from the center of the blast marker rather than the direction of the firing unit.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> That's actually correct. In the rules for Blast, you'll find: "Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models of the attacking unit."
> 
> Though if it's also a Barrage weapon, the shots instead come from the center of the blast marker rather than the direction of the firing unit.


I mean thats one way to get called out on that, though it makes more sense if a grendae drops onto a unit like that it'd affect the models under the blast but thats GW for you i guess


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

It's that way for the same reason that Majority Toughness is used in rolling To Wound as well as other simplifications, because it saves a ton of time doing Wound Allocation over doing everything 'correctly'. We've had editions where Wound Allocation could take 10-30 mins just to work out who died, especially with people trying to take full advantage of the various ways of making things more complicated to keep important models alive/spread the damage equally over multi-wound models and keep them all alive.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Shandathe said:


> It's that way for the same reason that Majority Toughness is used in rolling To Wound as well as other simplifications, because it saves a ton of time doing Wound Allocation over doing everything 'correctly'. We've had editions where Wound Allocation could take 10-30 mins just to work out who died, especially with people trying to take full advantage of the various ways of making things more complicated to keep important models alive/spread the damage equally over multi-wound models and keep them all alive.


Every game i've done up until that one followed the idea that you do the wounds to all models under the blast and take em out that way. For instance if a small blast hit 6 models and the wound rolls does all 4 wounds then to determine who actually gets killed we'd assign a number for each model 1-6 varying upon that as needed and roll a d6 for each wound and that number means that model died. 4 is a heavy flamer so that guy is now dead, 5 was a Sargent so he takes it (not including look out sir etc) 2 being a normal troop unit and 6 being a pysker for example that way its not like you said being bullshit where people try to make it so only the ones they don't want to die stay alive while the others don't.

I mean i can understand how some people can be absolute 100% assholes with wound allocations and that shit but most of the guys i've played with have been pretty chill and got their own way of getting around that kinda stuff without scream fests on what hits what, what wounds what and what dies.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Knighty said:


> most of the guys i've played with have been pretty chill and got their own way of getting around that kinda stuff without scream fests on what hits what, what wounds what and what dies.


Unfortunately, not everyone is going to be like that. General rule of thumb is to expect those people to be at tournies, and that you will go up against highly competitive lists. Now whether those people know what they are doing (assaulting after deep striking) is another matter entirely.

I am surprised that your tourny allowed someone to field a forgeworld unit with experimental rules and not have to explain it to you first. (Also what Tau weapon is a large blast, and is ap3?)


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

darkreever said:


> (Also what Tau weapon is a large blast, and is ap3?)


At least AP3 you mean. Might've been a Hammerhead with an Ion Cannon, but more likely it was the other big battlesuit mentioned - a Riptide's Ion Accelerator seems a likely candidate. Or he might have just gotten unlucky on the saves...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> At least AP3 you mean. Might've been a Hammerhead with an Ion Cannon, but more likely it was the other big battlesuit mentioned - a Riptide's Ion Accelerator seems a likely candidate. Or he might have just gotten unlucky on the saves...


Ah your right, most likely was the ion accelerator.

I'm rather curious to see the Tau and Grey Knight lists to be perfectly honest. The Tau list is rocking 415 points between the normal and Y'vahra riptides with only the ion accelerator upgrade, and the Grey Knight list is at 425 between a stock terminator squad and 2 dreadknights (535 when including the librarian with no upgrades.)

For your Tau opponent, its more a matter of wondering if he was fielding the correct number of points. I mean, between the two riptides, the compulsary crisis team, a stock strike squad, and a cadre fireblade your looking at 604 points. Thats 600 points with no upgrades except the ion accelerator, and no markerlights yet.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

I'll try to clear up what they had to the best of my memory (And knowledge of grey knight/tau stuff)



Shandathe said:


> a Hammerhead with an Ion Cannon, but more likely it was the other big battlesuit mentioned


Yeah the one with the large blast was indeed a big battlesuit, unsure of what kind it actually was but it was either AP3 or AP2 Large Blast because it removed the armor saves of my marines which is 3.



darkreever said:


> I am surprised that your tourny allowed someone to field a forgeworld unit with experimental rules and not have to explain it to you first.


So it was this stores second time hosting a warhammer 40k tourney so they are still working out what they can/will/want to allow and what they'll restrict. For instance the Skitarii got some restrcitons from memory they had to do with the amount of warlord like traits they got or something along those lines (sorry if that makes no sense i don't remember the skitarii related stuff, never fought them so it never came up again). As for the forgeworld unit with its special rules, well i wasn't aware it WAS forgeworld until i asked about the walker because it looked great, He never endeavoured to explain its rules/abilities and i never asked, didn't know they had a shit ton of custom rules thought they ran based of existing 40k rules with only slight modifications. The guy running it was aware it was forgeworld but allowed it (bare in mind this isn't a dedicated 40k store so that's why stuff isn't quite as relegated as you would normally expect).



darkreever said:


> I'm rather curious to see the Tau and Grey Knight lists to be perfectly honest.


Ask and you shall receive, this is again based of what i remember so any formations/squads that don't add up either is cause they cheated or i'm wrong.

Tau:
He was rocking two large battlesuits, the forgeworld one and the other looking something akin to this (http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net...esuit_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130603120203)
Neither suit had drones attached. He had a crisis suit squad with his commander attached. He also had 4 marker light drone squads (4-5 drones each potentially 1 was a gun drone). He then also had another suit squad, might of been crisis but yeah that was his list.
So to sum up
2 Big Battlesuits
1 Crisis suit squad w/ commander attached
4 Markerlight drone squads (4-5 drones one might of been a gun drone)
1 other troop unit, likely a crisis suit


Grey Knights:
He rocked 2 Dreadknights with the massive swords and psy cannons
1 Librarian
1 Chapter master, had a sword and thunder hammer
1 Grey Knight Termnator Squad (1 dual swords and storm bolter, One sword and psy cannon, 2 storm bolter and sword and 1 Sargent with storm bolter and sword)
He had a small list.

So thats the best my memory can do, idk if any of those combos are wrong or just right up illeagle but most of what i wrote is what they had barring the few exceptions where i wasn't sure of exact details.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Knighty said:


> Yeah the one with the large blast was indeed a big battlesuit, unsure of what kind it actually was but it was either AP3 or AP2 Large Blast because it removed the armor saves of my marines which is 3.


It was a riptide with ion accelerator then, thats in the Tau Empire codex.



Knighty said:


> Tau


This was a combined arms detachment and the drone formation. I'm very leary on this one because crisis suits get expensive fast.

How many crisis suits were there in total? What kind of weapons did they have?

Even if I assume the second squad was only 2 strong, and all suits had plasma rifles and missile pods his list would have been over 1000 points.



Knighty said:


> Grey Knights:





HQ:
Grand master
Daemonhammer
195

Grey Knight Librarian
Mastery level 3
135

Troops:
Terminator squad
1x Falchion, 1x psycannon
189

Heavy Support:
Dreadknight
Nemesis Greatsword and heavy psycannon, personal teleporter
205

Dreadknight
Nemesis Greatsword and heavy psycannon, personal teleporter
205

Total: 929


This is the Grey Knight list based on what you said, theres likely something missing but regardless this would be extremely tough for your deathwatch to deal with. It can get in your face very quickly and dominate in the psychic phase with 9-14 warp charges per turn.


So of the three lists you faced, Genestealer Cult is tough for everyone in general, the Grey Knight list was the rock to your scissor, and that Tau list might not have been legal or else it was super competitive.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm honestly not too sure about their weapons on the suits, i think they only ever shot once and even then it missed so i never paid much attention to the name of the weapons, also was more thinking along the lines of "holy shit 3/4 of army is already gone" XD.
I believe the commander was attached to a squad of 4 and the other might of been 2-3, can't really remember too well. If next time he's using that stuff again i'll be sure to check his rules and points myself (and other players too) cause i just didn't understand my enemy well enough though if it was an illegal list that kinda sucks ass, pretty sure he came in third for the whole thing


As for the Grey Knights i agree it would be tough, if i was aware that he couldn't in fact assault me right after teleporting and i managed to get that one more 6 to deny it, i'm not sure how it would of ended in the end, i could of just kept slamming shots into him from range whil he tried to close the distance, though i'm assuming he still would of got in front because of the teleporter. i did also manage to take a dread knight off the table straight up by just slamming everything i had and bad saving rolls by him and his terminators were still troops and i had a furor and malleus kill teams so asides from the two HQ i had the two kill teams that countered everything else. If he didn't charge me after teleporting in front of me i think i could of killed 2 terminators maybe the third with the furor nearby and slam the rest with the squad in front. It always sounds must more hopeful in post when you have time to think about what could of been, could of been done. 

Also the Grand Master had two melee weapons. I know he counted it as two because he used the sword(Think it might of been either a relic or a power sword cause i had to do invul rolls so it was something that was ap2) in his melee so he could attack me first (with the hammer being unwieldy and all).


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Yeah, then he might be new-ish to his army because the grand master only gets 1 close combat weapon, he can't exchange his storm bolster for a second one.

And even if he could, the hammer is a specialist weapon and the sword is not, so he would not get a bonus attack from having the two. He'd have been better off with a halberd in my opinion.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Agreed on the Halberd. +1 boosts him to S5,and he can try for Iron Arm when rolling powers if he doesn't think that's enough. His basic Nemesis Force Sword is great for fighting Deathwatch (Knighty: Think Power Sword with Force special rule). 

He likely grabbed the Hammer and didn't realize he was replacing it, rather than adding to it ("may take items from the Melee list" sounds like it, until you actually read the text above the Melee list). 

Unfortunately, calling mistakes like this one requires a lot of knowledge of your enemy's codex and even then you'd rather have the Codex on hand...


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Well uh yeah the halberd sounds heaps better then the sword and thunder hammer combo, only thing i can think of is he screwed up when making the model and just stuck with it, he did say specifically that he would attack me with the sword and not the hammer so he'd still be a higher initiative.

Curious as well what's you thoughts on Deathwatch landraiders? was thinking can make up a souped up melee squad and temy with heavy flamer or some other combo and take em right up to the front line where the enemy are, deploy em blast em with flamer and charge in with heavy thunder hammers, storm shields and xenophase blade kinda thing. or deploy another kill team from them. And with the lascannons, storm bolters and assault cannons i got some more options for anti tank and some anti-infantry capabilities
(And would the xenophase blades rule for re-rolling invul saves apply to any wounds taken by the unit or just the sword)

Or even drop pods

Cheers as always


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

The main problem with Deathwatch Land Raiders is that the things tend to attract large amounts of anti-tank fire, especially when they're filled - and Deathwatch costs enough points that you can't really field enough OTHER vehicles to take advantage of that. Worse, if the Land Raider actually gets killed the squad inside can't assault their next turn. That doesn't mean you can't make it work, just that you need to have a ready Plan B 

Drop Pods are probably the transport of choice for Deathwatch, as playing Deathwatch is very much about having the right unit in the right place. They're cheap and a relatively safe way to get a squad exactly where you need it. Always take an odd number to take advantage of Drop Pod Assault, possibly bring the Beacon Angelis with the first wave. It will let you guide in reserve Drop Pods and redeploy one of your units on the battlefield as well (Surprise Land Raider! Just remember Deep Strike means no immediate Assault).

Re: Xenophase blade, a weapon's rules only apply to attacks made with that weapon. The Xenophase blade's entry even specifically says so 

One small exception: A model with two close combat weapons (such as the Librarian, who has a Force Weapon and a Bolt Pistol) gets an extra attack from having two CCWs. He needs to choose one to attack with, and will only get the rules from one of them. He will obviously go with the Force Weapon as it's just plain BETTER than the pistol which counts as a 'normal' CCW. The bonus attack for having two CCWs ALSO uses the Force Weapon rules (despite presumably being from the pistol).


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Ah okay, you're right land raiders are large targets. i ask because my uncle has two and is sending them my way so i have them as an option if needed. you make a good point though the deathwatch are incredibly expensive as it is an adding land raiders to that would hurt it (depending). If they had anti tank that would screw up that plan so it'd be a situational thing.

Wow i am blind it does too well rip i did think it was too good that success invul re-rolls applied to the unit ah well.

I must say i've never heard of this drop pod assault thing before but that whole idea/tactic is a very amusing idea, especially the surprise land raider (chuck in a squad with it for extra shits and gig's) and you get 4-5 squads all where, barring deepstrike mishaps land right where you want with an added land raider in front as well (imagine doing that with the torrent flamer weapons my god good bye hoard armies)

Also thats new for me with that combat rule so thats good


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

A Land Raider can shrug off a surprising amount of fire, though you'll want to keep an eye out for particularly dangerous anti-tank weaponry (Melta/Armourbane/Lance). For infantry-based heavy weaponry like Devastators, Stalker Boltguns are your friend, aim Precision shots at the people carrying heavy weapons as they (usually) aren't characters and thus can't be Look Out Sir'd  Only 50% chance to help against the sergeant in the back with the Meltabomb though...

If you use drop pods, try and be the sneakiest horrible bastard you can be about abusing enemy deployment, as your own positioning is key. Best case you can find a way to only fight part of his army at once, and defeat the enemy in detail.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

One particularly horrible bastard i did see at the tourney was a Space wolves player who dropped 3 drop pods onto all 3 objectives and deployed his dreadnoughts from them, completely ruined a guys chances who was relying on mobility (I called his list the mad max list as the guy fighting the space wolves had literally all Space marine bikers and 1 storm raven gunship).

Wouldn't it be more economic to just shoot the squad? due to most squads being 5 guys get a squad of 4-5 stalkers and you for 8-10 shots slamming into the squad, haven't seen too many 5+ devastator squads, make that squad a furor (add a 2 frag cannon for the awesome impact, or Infernus) so be like a 7 man squad for 244pts which really for deathwatch is pretty small and provides some pretty big damage or do the 5 man with 3 stalkers 2 Frag/infernus for 180pts which again pretty point economic for the damage output.

Worst comes to worst if a particularly nasty squad is about to his the land raider with power weapons/melta bombs i can always surprise! and charge out my own squad to combat.

This idea with the drop pods honestly sounds great, i'll try and get a couple of em sometime soon because as you said makes alot of sense and allows me to take map control and deploy them right where they are needed which is important.

One thing though this drop pod assault rule does it require 3 drop pods or can it be done with less?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> Wouldn't it be more economic to just shoot the squad?


Yep, but as they're usually in cover and you can't ignore both their cover AND armour saves... a better chance for a guy in the back is always nice.



Knighty said:


> One thing though this drop pod assault rule does it require 3 drop pods or can it be done with less?


It's right in your Codex at the Drop Pod entry. Half your Drop Pods rounded up show up immediately, so if you take 1 it'll be there Turn 1. It will at the very least force him to deploy to take that into account. Note you still get to move the squad a bit out of the drop pod, so get into cover against the army parts the squad can't immediately shoot (the drop pod can serve as cover if nothing better is available!). 

You want to take an odd number so the 'rounding up' works in your favor... if you take two, you'll still only get one Turn 1 and have to roll for the other. If you take 3 you get 2 on Turn 1 - with the last one having to be rolled for normally, and so on.


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

Wow i am very much blind when it comes to gems of cheese like these in my own army, this'll be something to use for sure


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

So uh the store is now doing a kill team campagin, looking at potential lists with the rules to consider make it a rather small one. Decided to post it on through this seeing as its still DW List related XD

Thus far my current idea for a list consists of:
190pts
1 Vet sqaud
- 2 Infernus Bolters
- 2 stalker Bolters
- Bolter

1 Biker

Hard enough making a 1k list but geez 200pts more painful XD, i was gonna add a terminator but remembered the whole nothing with a 2+ armor save so that ruins that idea, might swap out the stalkers though because their heavy it'll mean they only fire snap shots when moved right? so that'll limit their usefulness, though having said that the boards will be fairly open. I could also swap the two infernus for two frag cannons which would make 200pts even. I got the biker so i can make the unit a aquila kill team as that'll be the only kill team i can form with 200pts and other restrictions, i would of prefered to use furor but without terminators it's not possible.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

First things first: Don't worry about a Deathwatch Kill Team Formation, as you have to adhere to the Kill Team Detachment for which a Kill Team Formation does not, alas, qualify.

For Deathwatch, this pretty much means 'grab 6 Power Armour models and gear up to taste'. Deathwatch is expensive pointwise to start with and 6 is prolly the max you can get and still get some gun upgrades. A biker for the sixth is not a bad choice - faster and tougher makes him a good harassment choice.

This means fully half your team will be Specialists, plus a fourth will be Leader. Pick them wisely.

On weapons:

Unless you're looking at an 'indoor' mission with no open field, Stalkers aren't a bad choice. Table shouldn't be more than 4x4, your shortest range on a Stalker is 24" and everything else (so every shot that doesn't absolutely need to go through 3+) is longer, so find your Stalker-armed marines a sniper perch somewhere mid-forward in your deployment zone and just shoot from there.

You need at least one Frag Cannon I think, for anti-vehicle duty. Getting a Meltagun in range gets iffy... Vehicles with 33 or less total AV are not just Rhinos, you might meet such niceties as a Razorback(11/11/10), Immolator (11/11/10 again, particular favorite of mine), Chimera (12/10/10 with a multilaser and heavy bolter as standard issue), a *squadron* of Armoured Sentinels (12/10/10, comes with a Multilaser and can pick up a Missile Launcher that'll go straight through your armour save for 5 points more)... and that's just the basic Imperium vehicles. 

Good news, Mission Tactics will be invaluable because the enemy's only going to have one (MAYBE two) battlefield roles in play, so you won't be missing much. Not much to worry about Gets Hot when firing Vengeance rounds.

Not so good news, you're going to be outnumbered, as per usual. 6 models (you can lose 4 before taking break tests), 6 wounds total... which isn't very many at all given that some of the other armies can easily put four times that on the table. Worse, if you're not outnumbered, you're probably looking at something like 6 Wraithguard, as nobody told the Eldar they could not bring D weapons (You could take those, though...).


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## Knighty (Feb 28, 2017)

When you say i could take those do you mean the wraithguard or D weapons? didn't think deathwatch had any if so.

So i can't use kill teams at all in this only mission tactics? Seems kinda redundant when the name of the formation is literally kill team lol.

As for anti tank i actually looked around and though of going with a vanguard vet with a power fist over the biker, can jump and move alot faster than everyone else and can pound through the armor with relative ease. I didn't think too much about armor as i didn't think many people would be able to field them but yeah it's stupid to rule that out.

If i was to take in a frag cannon it'd mean taking out the additional biker/vanguard so my list would look like either of these combos:

6 Vets
2 Stalkers
1 Frag Cannon
1 Infernus
2 bolters

5 vets
2 stalkers
1 Frag Cannon
1 Infernus
1 Sarge /w SS and xenophase blade

5 Vets
2 Stalkers
2 Infernus
1 Frag Cannon

9 Vets
9 Bolters

7 Vets
1 Infernus
1 Frag Cannon
5 Bolters

5 Vets
1 Sarge SS Xenophase
1 BS, SS, Heavy Thunder Hammer
3 Bolters

I'm sure there are plenty of other combos but those are the current ones i can think of

EDIT: Just realising that there is actually a kill team thread... probs should of posted it on that ahaha ah well


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Knighty said:


> When you say i could take those do you mean the wraithguard or D weapons? didn't think deathwatch had any if so.


You can probably take the Eldar. Low enemy model count is good for you 



Knighty said:


> So i can't use kill teams at all in this only mission tactics? Seems kinda redundant when the name of the formation is literally kill team lol.


Kill Team has its own specific Detachment you have to use. 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Elites, 0-1 Fast Attack. No Formations for you. Or for anyone else, so there's that.



Knighty said:


> As for anti tank i actually looked around and though of going with a vanguard vet with a power fist over the biker, can jump and move alot faster than everyone else and can pound through the armor with relative ease. I didn't think too much about armor as i didn't think many people would be able to field them but yeah it's stupid to rule that out.


Power fist would probably work better than the Frag Cannon in the anti-vehicle role, as the vehicles in Kill Team will usually have 10 rear armour (with a very, very rare 11/12, usually on Walkers). The important bit is, you NEED anti-tank


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