# The SPOILER: the encounter between Corax and Konrad in First Heretic



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

OK, so I just read the First Heretic 

On Istvaan, Corax and Lorgar duke it out...Lorgar manages to put up a surprisingly good fight
Lorgar charges himself up psychically (apparently he has some latent psychic power), gets in some good blows (cracks Corax's chest-plate, shatters one of Corax's gauntlets, "decimates" Corax's "delicate features" with headbutts), but eventually loses

Konrad shows up and saves him, Konrad holds off Corax's killing blow, and Konrad and Corax have a verbal exchange something like this:
Konrad: look into my eyes and see your death
Corax: why have you betrayed us
Konrad (grabbing Corax's wrist): don't fly away little raven, we're not done
while Konrad mocks Lorgar for losing, Corax flies off anyway 
Konrad laughs at Corax for leaving

Corax avoided the fight, so you'd think Konrad was superior

on the other hand, clashing with Lorgar probably took quite a toll on Corax
if so, Corax may have decided that the situation had turned against him, with Night Haunter suddenly stepping in and Lorgar recovering on the ground 

your thoughts? who'd have the upper hand in "a fair duel"? where would you rank Konrad in terms of martial prowess among the primarchs?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Corax has lost one of his Lightning Claws and has not had the whole fight go his way. If Kurze is allowed to get stuck in, then Corax might be stuck there long enough for Lorgar to get back on his feet, join in and, if Corax is managing to hold on, push the odds too far beyond him.
Then again, it might be, after what was done to Dorn, the loyal Primarchs know he is unhinged and incredibly dangerous one-on-one; strong enough to make his brothers want to be at least 2-on-1 with him. Even in this case, though, I still think the fight with Lorgar would play a part, leaving Corax at an even greater disadvantage.

GFP


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Corax has lost one of his Lightning Claws and has not had the whole fight go his way. If Kurze is allowed to get stuck in, then Corax might be stuck there long enough for Lorgar to get back on his feet, join in and, if Corax is managing to hold on, push the odds too far beyond him.
> Then again, it might be, after what was done to Dorn, the loyal Primarchs know he is unhinged and incredibly dangerous one-on-one; strong enough to make his brothers want to be at least 2-on-1 with him. Even in this case, though, I still think the fight with Lorgar would play a part, leaving Corax at an even greater disadvantage.GFP


I haven't read the story in which Dorn confronts Konrad, but from what I've read on forums it seems that Konrad "sucker punched" Dorn, sort of like if my brother was yelling at me and I suddenly punched him in the face as hard and as fast as I could and then stomped him while he's on the ground


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

close fight I reckon would like to say corax but more then likely konrad esp the way they described the infant corax grabbing a weapon as soon as he left his pod. 

p.s sucker punch from hell on dorns behalf


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lorgar got soundly beaten, it wasn't even almost close or a fair fight. Corax outclassed him constantly. In the end all he had was a cracked breastplate, which means fuck all, one of his lightning claws shattered and a broken nose and black eyes. No actual damage to his body beyond the entirely superficial facial wounds. Lorgar has been permenantly scared across his face and should have died then and there had Corax not chosen to shield his eyes. He is then virtually eviscerated by Corax and should have and would have died had Curze not stepped in. Corax still at this point by the way has a fully functioning lightning claw, his jetpack wings, which seems very deadly and the small matter of a an electo-whip thats capable of shearing terminators in half like they were made of paper.

But now Kurze has entered the fight, it's now two primarchs against one. Thats bad odds for any of the primarchs i will wager, especially when Corax is although still injury free and still got alot left in him, he is also likely highly fatigued after all the fighting against the first four legions and then fighting the Vorbak once the other three traitor legions arrived, and push-over or not, Lorgar still probably fatigued him abit aswell. Whereas Kurze is pretty much clean fatigued, having only just arrived on the planet. It just makes pure tactical sense for Corax to withdraw at that time.

Corax is implied to be in the higher end of the primarchs in the close combat ability area i believe. And clearly is very good from all the fights we've seen him in. Kurze is no doubt deadly aswell, but we've only really got the time he savaged Dorn to go by, and regardless of whether he sucker punched Dorn or not, you can imagine if Dorn did have a chance to fight back it would have been on the offensive, confused and not going to kill. Corax is now completely enraged, fighting to kill and is not holding back at all.


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## BrotherArcadius (Jan 3, 2011)

I think it has more to do with the exchange than the combat. When Kruze told him to "gaze into his eyes and see his death" he may have actually given Corax a glimpse of his demise, maybe even a view of some horrible warp-twisted future. Maybe Night Haunter showed him the Imperium's future, just like the Warp did to Horus. After that fight Corax pretty much becomes even more of a recluse and eventually leaves altogether and disappears.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

A good possible point. Although I'd like to believe that Corax knew Night Haunter was skilled in close-quarters and even the pathetic Lorgar was still a Primarch and still a threat.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Corax was trying to be everywhere at once. He was attempting to distract and engage as many combatants as possible to draw attention from his troops. Although I'm far from certain of the outcome in a fight between Curze and Corax I think Corax's retreat was tactical and unselfish. The possibility of his death had jumped immensely once Curze arrived, he knew he was no good to his men dead so he withdrew.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

BrotherArcadius said:


> I think it has more to do with the exchange than the combat. When Kruze told him to "gaze into his eyes and see his death" he may have actually given Corax a glimpse of his demise, maybe even a view of some horrible warp-twisted future. Maybe Night Haunter showed him the Imperium's future, just like the Warp did to Horus. After that fight Corax pretty much becomes even more of a recluse and eventually leaves altogether and disappears.


I thought that was just Night Haunter being arrogant and trying to intimidate Corax, but now that I think of it good point, after all Night Haunter had the gift for prophecy...on another note, does that actually mean Corax died after leaving the Imperium?



BlackGuard said:


> A good possible point. Although I'd like to believe that Corax knew Night Haunter was skilled in close-quarters and even the pathetic Lorgar was still a Primarch and still a threat.


agreed, at the very least an injured Lorgar could be a nuisance while Corax fights Night Haunter
but yes, Lorgar seemed to be the worst fighter out of the primarchs...I wonder if his legion took after him, they seemed to be pretty useless against the custodes 



NiceGuyEddy said:


> Corax was trying to be everywhere at once. He was attempting to distract and engage as many combatants as possible to draw attention from his troops. Although I'm far from certain of the outcome in a fight between Curze and Corax I think Corax's retreat was tactical and unselfish. The possibility of his death had jumped immensely once Curze arrived, he knew he was no good to his men dead so he withdrew.


so tactical withdrawal plus the fact Night Haunter was a formidable fighter 

In personal combat, I think the stronger primarchs were:

Angron
Sanguinius
Leman Russ & Lion
Fulgrim & Khan (I think it was mentioned that they're exceptionally skilled with the sword)
Corax & Night Haunter 

Lorgar being particularly weak for a primarch 

I'm not too sure about Horus, Gulliman, Dorn, Mortarion, Ferrus, Vulkan, Peturabo, Magnus, Alpharius

My impression of Horus was always as a "leader" type, but I think he's mentioned in some sources as being one of the best fighters

also I think Magnus is a special case because of his incredible psychic power, he may not be a great fighter, but he was one heck of a sorcerer/psyker


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus is definetly amongst the top of the fighters, likely somewhere in the top five. As for Ferrus, he would have beaten Fulgrim if it wasn't for the deamon blade, so i would rank him quite highly aswell.

I think people are looking to much into Night Haunters comment. I think it was just a arrogant statement, much like Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet when he tells Bonvolio "Turn thee, Benvolio, look upon thy death"


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Agreed, Angel of Blood.

And I also concur with those that realize had better things to do than get pinned down in duel after duel, when the lives of his warriors were on the line. Having said that, I don't think the damage he had taken from Lorgar (both to his body and his armor) was entirely superficial. In that sense, again, I think he was adverse to fighting at a disadvantage (Curze being fresh, uninjured) unless he truly needed to.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i always believed and i think i have seen it on similar threads the last few weeks that Curze and Corax are both halfs of the same coin. Thier leigons specialise in close combat, utilise the darkness to thier benefit etc etc. 
had Corax stayed to fight it might not have been so up and down and perhapes thats why curze wanted the fight to continue, on some promal level to see which one of them truely was the best. 
He already thought Lorgar was pathetic and had no time for his philospher ways but in Corax maybe - and this is only a sumisiation - he saw an opponent that was his equal but he still had to prove he was the daddy.
Knowing that he was going to die and knowing how he was going to die had i guess given him some level of arrogance, "I won't die here today but you might" Sort of thing. 
Then again as was posted the other knew that violence was always bubbling beneath the surface of the Night Haunter and the fact that he almost killed Dorn would make Corax wary around him.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

gothik said:


> Then again as was posted the other knew that violence was always bubbling beneath the surface of the Night Haunter and the fact that he almost killed Dorn would make Corax wary around him.


are you saying Night Haunter already knew how he was going to die?

the Dorn confrontation gets brought up a lot, but I'm not so sure it shows Curze's prowess, seemed more like a sucker punch to me


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

In the dark king audio book it says that Dorn came to Curze to TALK and when Curze had another vision he basicly just blacked out, coming too over top of Dorn. This shows that Curze himself didn't even expect to attack Dorn and so was a sucker punch/claw. 
I think Curze's comments to Corax was just scare tactics meant to intimidate Corax. Like others have said a tired and caught off guard (by Curze) Corax had to either flee or take on 2 primarchs which no matter how weak Lorgar is is still bad odds for Corax.


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## DeathGuardGarro (Nov 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> In personal combat, I think the stronger primarchs were:
> 
> Angron
> Sanguinius
> ...


Ferrus Manus defeated Fulgrim, and was ready to kill him, until the Daemon took control of Fulgrim. This gave Fulgrim Greater Powers, and eventually killed Manus.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> the Dorn confrontation gets brought up a lot, but I'm not so sure it shows Curze's prowess, seemed more like a sucker punch to me


It doesn't show prowess to be sure, but it does show will. By the time Istvaan rolled around Curze had already demonstrated that he had the will, the mental fortitude (or lack there of) to kill one of his borthers. Maybe Corax didn't? He hesitated against Lorgar, gave him time and limited his own arsenal. Maybe he couldn't bring himself, or at least was confident he could, to kill a brother, even one as twisted as Night Haunter. He would know that Curze would punish the slightest hesitation and certainly wouldn't show any in return.

All that being said, I would still call it a tactical retreat to support other elements of his army but he definately didn't want any part of a fight with Night Haunter.

One thing to bear in mind in comparing the martial abilities of the various primarchs is looking at both the time period and the type of combat. Angron for example is undenably a whirl-wind of carnage on the battlefield but would he be so good in single combat? As a gladiator (and a primarch) he would certainly have no-small amount of skill but would it be the match of a trained and dedicated duelist like the Lion or Fulgrim? Would the raw strength of Perturabo or Vulkan be able to overcome the speed and cunning of Corax or Alpharius? It's really very hard to accurately judge because so few of them ever fought with intent to kill.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I personally think Corax has the advantage most of the time. In this instance I'd still give him the advantage due to the fact that though Curze is known for being an ass kicker (when he kicked Dorn's ass for example) with a more of a down and dirty fight more than a challenge. A complete surprise that Curze would attack Dorn in Dorn's viewpoint I'm sure. Otherwise, I don't think we have a good defined judgement on how Curze pars against other primarchs. 

A challenge is something Corax excels in for a one on one combat. 

Of course as it has been already mentioned this instance in Istvaan that there was more at steak than one on one challenges. Corax had to save what was left of his legion instead of accepting Curze's challenge. And the best thing to do really if you listened to _Raven's Flight_ and find out how much of his legion he really saved.

I'm sure he is pretty good.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> are you saying Night Haunter already knew how he was going to die?
> 
> the Dorn confrontation gets brought up a lot, but I'm not so sure it shows Curze's prowess, seemed more like a sucker punch to me


as far as i am aware he had already foreseen his own death althouigh i could be wrong so if baron or cote are listening please correct me


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

gothik said:


> as far as i am aware he had already foreseen his own death althouigh i could be wrong so if baron or cote are listening please correct me


I'm pretty sure that his vision of his death at the hands of the Emperor was the reason Dorn approached him, whether or not that vision was specific enough to include a date/location/killer is debatable.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

gothik said:


> as far as i am aware he had already foreseen his own death althouigh i could be wrong so if baron or cote are listening please correct me


I don't think it ever stated outright that Kurze had seen his own death. It said he was plagued by visions throughout his life, all showing the worst possible results, whether all or any cane to pass is neither here nor there. When he met the Emperor he had another potent vision and told the Emperor he knew exactly what the Emperor intended for him. Whether that meant he knew he would become the Emperors terror weapon, have the assassins deployed against him or his death is unknown, but it was very likely not good. It's debatable whether he saw M'Shen coming to kill him in a vision or not. He told her he knew she was coming, but that could have been from intel not a vision. Either way I don't remember reading anywhere that specifically states he saw his own death or not. Sanguinius was the only primarch I know of that is specifically stated to have seen his own death


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

One thing I'm not sure that was mentioned is that Curze always taught that fear was your best weapon as as such might have been trying to instill some in Corax. Though it seems an insane idea that the primarchs would have felt any sort of fear. If the two, fully healed equipped what have you, met in a fight I'd pick Corax every time. While Curze may be skilled in CC he also sets up his fight so that he can't lose. Hiding in the shadows and working off the fear of your enemy doesn't seem like it would play to an advantage in a straight duel. 

As for what actually happened in the book, I have to agree with the majority of the posts that Corax knew that with Lorgar even as he was that it would be an unfair fight and that his efforts would be spent better elsewhere trying to save his legion. Also, one on one with Lorgar it would be no match as Lorgar doesn't stand a chance in any CC really. Magnus and Lorgar never really wanted to be warriors remember and therefore you can't really expect them to hold up very well in a purely martial fight (if you leave Magnus' tremendous psychic powers out of the picture of course).


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Corax has lost one of his Lightning Claws and has not had the whole fight go his way. If Kurze is allowed to get stuck in, then Corax might be stuck there long enough for Lorgar to get back on his feet, join in and, if Corax is managing to hold on, push the odds too far beyond him.
> Then again, it might be, after what was done to Dorn, the loyal Primarchs know he is unhinged and incredibly dangerous one-on-one; strong enough to make his brothers want to be at least 2-on-1 with him. Even in this case, though, I still think the fight with Lorgar would play a part, leaving Corax at an even greater disadvantage.
> 
> GFP


I doubt that Lorgar would have joined in because he was going to allow Corax to practically kill him. The way it was written, I think Lorgar forfeited the fight right when Kurze stepped in. Lorgar was in some sort of shock at what he realized he ws doing: turning brother astartes against astartes, brother against brother. He probably didn't fully comprehend the severity of this situation because this was all the work of Erubus and Kor Phaeron.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I doubt that Lorgar would have joined in because he was going to allow Corax to practically kill him. The way it was written, I think Lorgar forfeited the fight right when Kurze stepped in. Lorgar was in some sort of shock at what he realized he ws doing: turning brother astartes against astartes, brother against brother. He probably didn't fully comprehend the severity of this situation because this was all the work of Erubus and Kor Phaeron.


you have to think of it from Corax's perspective 
despite Lorgar's defeated demeanor, how could Corax have been sure that Lorgar wouldn't try to stab him in the back if he fought Curze, who had just saved Lorgar's life...
I think it was wise of Corax to disengage 
one distraction, one obstruction from Lorgar could cost Corax his life against an opponent like Curze


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> you have to think of it from Corax's perspective
> despite Lorgar's defeated demeanor, how could Corax have been sure that Lorgar wouldn't try to stab him in the back if he fought Curze, who had just saved Lorgar's life...
> I think it was wise of Corax to disengage
> one distraction, one obstruction from Lorgar could cost Corax his life against an opponent like Curze


Yes I totally agree with you. What I meant was I doubt Lorgar would continue the fight period or jump back in.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I dont think Lorgar was a further threat - he was using both his hands to hold his intestines from spilling out all over the ground, he was completely gutted and on the virge of blacking out.

I think its fair to say he took one look at Kurze and legged it. 

All that maybe said about which primarch is the best at duelling, some are just plain vicious, as stated before in a death duel they are the most dangerous, the kind of unpredictable lunatic who even if beaten fairly would pull a grenade out and flip the pin with a sadistic grin on their face.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

In all fairness Id take one look at Curze and run like all the Demons of legend were after me, but then Im no Primarch.
No one really knows what was going on in Corax's mind when he bailed, but the way I read it he absolutley bricked it and struggled to get away before he managed too.

On a side note, that fight against Lorgar made him seem so utterly cool, I loved the blade/wing jetpack combo reminds me of a character from a film...or a game, cant remember which one right now though!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> I dont think Lorgar was a further threat - he was using both his hands to hold his intestines from spilling out all over the ground, he was completely gutted and on the virge of blacking out.
> 
> I think its fair to say he took one look at Kurze and legged it.


he seemed to recover fairly well afterward though...he was already standing when the Gal Vorbak arrived
your opinion is as valid as my own, perhaps Corax was afraid, perhaps he knew he was outclassed by Curze, but I think it's just as fair to say that Corax was aware the situation had turned against him

yes, Lorgar looked defeated, but in combat if someone (especially a primarch) isn't fully incapacitated or dead, the threat isn't ended...
how could Corax be certain that while he's occupied with Curze, Lorgar wouldn't try to take revenge
Corax certainly wouldn't rely on Lorgar's honour. In Corax's eyes Lorgar had shown himself to be utterly treacherous 

in addition, Corax wasn't unscathed after his fight with Lorgar
he was injured (his chest armour may also have been compromised) and missing one of his weapons...this meant he couldn't use his optimal/preferred fighting method (dual-wielding) against Curze, a very deadly opponent
finally, Corax's men were dying all around him, they needed their primarch's help...
Corax would have no advantage if he fought Curze then and there, on the contrary he was most likely at a significant disadvantage


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

No one has mentioned Raven's Flight.

Towards the end of the audio book the Corax and the remaining Raven Guard are trapped by Angron 'and the full force of his legion'.

Whilst it might not be the reality Corax believes that the only primarchs that can best him in combat are Angron, Sanguinius and Horus. Make of that what you will.

I tend go with the view that he was outnumbered and he took flight as a tactical retreat. To paraphrase Corax in Raven's Flight 'Perturabo would fight striking blow for blow' rather than tactically approaching the opponent.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

increaso said:


> No one has mentioned Raven's Flight.
> 
> Towards the end of the audio book the Corax and the remaining Raven Guard are trapped by Angron 'and the full force of his legion'.
> 
> ...


This bit of 'Ravens flight' has always confused me a bit. Contrary to what most people seem to think, my understanding is that Corax is saying that he cannot beat Angron in a fight, and that perhaps only Horus and Sanguinius would be able to. I don't recall him saying that he thinks these are the _only_ primarchs that can best him(Corax). He is simply commenting on Angrons skill at arms. Or at least thats how I interpreted it ( although I must admit that I seem to be in the minority in this!).


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

grimdarkness said:


> This bit of 'Ravens flight' has always confused me a bit. Contrary to what most people seem to think, my understanding is that Corax is saying that he cannot beat Angron in a fight, and that perhaps only Horus and Sanguinius would be able to. I don't recall him saying that he thinks these are the _only_ primarchs that can best him(Corax). He is simply commenting on Angrons skill at arms. Or at least thats how I interpreted it ( although I must admit that I seem to be in the minority in this!).


it is generally accepted i think that Corax and Horus did not see eye to eye and did not really like each other, (hey brothers bicker). By the way the fight scene was played out to me, was that Lorgar was incapable of fighting to his full potential as he had started to feel a little guilt and First Heretic cleared a few things up for me. I had no idea until i read that, that Kor Phaeron was an enhanced human in the vein of Luthor i had always assumed that he was an Astartes and not a superhuman human.
also i had imagined Lorgar a lot stronger then he was portrayed however the spat between him, the emperor and Gulliman and Malcador was excellent.
The question remains then did Lorgar truely know of the machinations of Kor Phaeron and Erebus and merely let them play out, or was he totally blind to the games that they had played.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gothik said:


> it is generally accepted i think that Corax and Horus did not see eye to eye and did not really like each other, (hey brothers bicker).


Understatement!

Their severe dislike for one another is the only example we know of a Primarch feud involving either Horus or Corax, they almost came to blows before Corax took his Legion out from under Horus' direct control .


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Understatement!
> 
> Their severe dislike for one another is the only example we know of a Primarch feud involving either Horus or Corax, they almost came to blows before Corax took his Legion out from under Horus' direct control .


I wonder why. But it didn't seem like Corax was very fond of the Emperor's Imperium in Raven's Flight.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Understatement!
> 
> Their severe dislike for one another is the only example we know of a Primarch feud involving either Horus or Corax, they almost came to blows before Corax took his Legion out from under Horus' direct control .


i was trying to be diplomatic lol :goodpost:


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Understatement!
> 
> Their severe dislike for one another is the only example we know of a Primarch feud involving either Horus or Corax, they almost came to blows before Corax took his Legion out from under Horus' direct control .


Just wondering when this was, sound interesting to read.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Imperial Valor said:


> Just wondering when this was, sound interesting to read.


Index Astartes: Raven Guard.

Previous to the 'falling out' statement the article suggests that the reason the Luna Wolves victory tally is so high is that a number of times they had the Raven Guard in support but claimed the victories won by both Legions acting in concert as Luna Wolves victories.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Horus is definetly amongst the top of the fighters, likely somewhere in the top five. As for Ferrus, he would have beaten Fulgrim if it wasn't for the deamon blade, so i would rank him quite highly aswell.


generally I'm more a fan of the loyalists, but in _Fulgrim_, Ferrus fought Fulgrim when Fulgrim approached him about joining Horus. 

Fulgrim seems to be the better duelist. The only excuses I could make for Ferrus are:
1) when he caught Fulgrim's sword and destroyed it, the resulting explosion stunned him more than it did Fulgrim...however, this may have been because Ferrus was the one who caused the sword to explode and therefore it wasn't luck
2) Ferrus was fighting with a hefty warhammer, which wasn't suited for "long duels"...however, as far as I know, Ferrus's preferred weapon was a hammer, and he may have done even worse with another type of weapon. Perhaps Ferrus's fighting style just wasn't very good for duels?

it is mentioned somewhere that Jaghatai and Fulgrim were exceptionally skilled swordsmen even among the primarchs


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

Thanks Baron 

Anyways I'm signing off,
wish me luck in my first EVER tournament tommorow!!
Bye!!


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## M3N0N26 (Sep 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> generally I'm more a fan of the loyalists, but in _Fulgrim_, Ferrus fought Fulgrim when Fulgrim approached him about joining Horus.
> 
> Fulgrim seems to be the better duelist. The only excuses I could make for Ferrus are:
> 1) when he caught Fulgrim's sword and destroyed it, the resulting explosion stunned him more than it did Fulgrim...however, this may have been because Ferrus was the one who caused the sword to explode and therefore it wasn't luck
> ...



Put it into context, after Ferrus destroyed Fireblade, he knelt on the floor, moaning in anguish as to what had just transpired, he was shocked, hurt, betrayed and not in a position to react to anything...in battle #2 at Istvaan V, Ferrus had the upperhand and was pressing Fireblade down to Fulgrims face for the deathblow when the daemon blade took control and overpowered Ferrus.

So personally I think Ferrus = Fulgrim in combat. Thats just what I derived from the book. Fulgrim won fight 1, and Ferrus would have won fight 2 had it not been for the laeran sword.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Being far too lazy to check right now, but isnt it stated that Fulgrim recoverd first after the assplosion of the Fireblade, hardly what you'd call skill at duelling. Im guessing it had something to do with how Ferrus makes/destroys the weapons, only guessing mind.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Kickback said:


> Being far too lazy to check right now, but isnt it stated that Fulgrim recoverd first after the assplosion of the Fireblade, hardly what you'd call skill at duelling. Im guessing it had something to do with how Ferrus makes/destroys the weapons, only guessing mind.


you know i am sure he was quoted as saying what he makes he can undo....i hope there is a HH book to do with the Iron hands little is writen about them and i'd like to see how they forged thier path before loosing thier father to his closest brother.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The Ferrus-Fulgrim fight kinda confuses me because in _Fulgrim_ it looks like Ferrus had the upper hand but in _The First Heretic_ it makes it look like Fulgrim had the upper hand. I also think the advantage that Ferrus gained near the end of the fight could in part be due to the fact that Fulgrim had partially come to his senses at that point and was reluctant to continue the duel. As I recall, he was saying something along the lines of "my brother, my friend" and "this is not right".


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hmm, I like Ferrus but I think Fulgrim has always been portrayed as one of the best primarchs at personal combat 

even if Fulgrim did not have the anathame, I'm not sure if Ferrus could have beaten Fulgrim on Istvaan
wielding the anathame was definitely an advantage though, the thing allowed a planetary governor to wound Horus in a duel


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fulgrim wasn't using the anathame. He was using Forgebreaker first, then switched to the laeren blade. He only used the anathame to kill Vespasian as far as we see


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