# What Could Horus Have Done Better?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

*What Could Horus Have Done Better? *SPOILERS**

THERE ARE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD, NOTHING YOU CAN'T GET YOUR HANDS ON THOUGH. Just in case you want to get the rest of the information.

Besides for not Dropping his shields during the Battle of Terra, what do you think could have strategically done better in the overall scheme of things including the final battle and fight for the Imperium.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

I think it went perfectly.

The fact that he didn't completely kill the Emperor is perfect, because it gives the Imperium a false sense of hope, when in reality all is lost.k:

And best of all, he killed that overrated dickhead mutant with wings (aka Sanguinus).:gimmefive:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

True but I doubt that "Chaos Horus" wanted to lose and die.


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Horus could not have been so weak-willed and fallen to Chaos in the first place, and Humanity wouldn't be in such dire straights right now. But I digress...He should have made sure the majority of the Imperium was behind him and crushed those that weren't before going at the big E.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Do you heretics believe that it would be possible that Horus could have gained the support of any other legions? Why or why not?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Do you heretics believe that it would be possible that Horus could have gained the support of any other legions? Why or why not?


Yep. All he had to do was say that the Emperor raped their mothers. Instant traitors.
How do you think Khorne Berzerkers are made? :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I think that the battle for Terra went extremely well for Horus tbh. The major contributer to the failure of the battle was the inability of legions such as the night lords and the alpha legion to hold back loyalist reinforcements. If he had more time his victory would have been assured but with the imminent threat of an imperial attack that would have all but wiped out his orbiting fleet he had no other choice but to try and lure the emperor into a trap.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Horus could have kept his damn ship's shields up, instead of getting a case of curiousness.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord: The OP said to avoid mentioning what you just mentioned.


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## WarWolf88 (Apr 1, 2010)

I too think that he did everything pretty much perfectly. Imperial Palace would have fallen if he had had more time before the loyalist reinforcements could arrive. The scheme to drop the shields and lure the Emperor in was a rash and desperate gambit, and it didn't go quite as planned as it was not part of the plan at all.

@Carna: I think you could compare Horus and Hannibal in this situation. Both had achieved a major if not desicive victory, and both had the same choises.

1. Consilidate forces and secury the loyalty and support from as people many as possible.

2. Attack the enemy immediatly, not giving them time to recover.

Hannibal ofcourse went for the first option, and ended up being grinded to pieces little by little by both his "own", as well as his enemy that now refused to face him directly in another large battle, until they were absolutely ready for it. This resulted in the fact that in the end, Hannibal was defeated in the battle of Zama.
Maybe I have misread something but I got the impretion that Horus also was fighting tooth and nail to keep his forces together just to get them to Terra. And even tough he chose the second option, he ran out of time, as I said before, and was defeated as well.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> 2. Attack the enemy immediatly, not giving them time to recover.


Agreed an also elaborated, in the future Horus Heresy Novel _Nemesis_. 




Luc Sedirae: Perhaps, if he were not kept ignorant of the threats to our campaign, he might-

Erebus: Push on to the Segmentum Solar, and to Earth?

Korda: A month would be enough. It could be done. We all know it.

Don't want to ruin the little sample but basically they argue about them not going fast enough to destroy Terra. If you want the whole little skit its in the May-August 2010 Catalogue


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think base on speculation, that time and resources needed to destroy the loyalist astartes actually did take up a lot from the traitors. And I'm talking about both Istavaans. 

I want to know what you guys thought about these quotes and what you think about the possibility that given the correct measures, he could have persuaded other primarchs to join his side thus making his heresy faster, and more "win-able". Perhaps their wouldn't have been so much devastation as the rest of the Emperor's armies could have been washed away.





> "So... you are going to kill me?" Ferrus *Hesitated*, and Fulgrim saw his shoulders sag in despair. "I am your sworn honour brother and I swear to you that I do not lie," pressed Fulgrim, hoping that there was still a chance to convince his brother not to act in haste. "*I know you're not lying*, Fulgrim," said Ferrus sadly...


 _Fulgrim Page 383-384_

We all know Ferrus remained loyal, but I was thinking, that perhaps if Ferrus had been seduced better, perhaps with great reward or maybe a better believable lie that Ferrus could have been turned. Because according to what Fulgrim said, he sensed it to be true. 





> "Was the Wildness... the savagery of the army that raged towards him *something that hid in every legion*?" _Corax in Raven Flight_





> "Corax and free deliverance from the slave master and guided them to the fold of the Imperium. *Perhaps he had merely swapped one master for another*..." _Corax in Raven Flight_


Corax talks about how the traitor legions had no purpose and were fighting along Horus "blindly." Could Horus have tricked Corax to join him and return give him free reign over his own planet without ties to the Imperium? Could he and the chaos powers given him the purpose he wanted?





> "Now we have it, now the truth dawns. He felt the hairs on his skin rise. I'm not afraid of Horus, I'm afraid of why he has turned against us... *Horus must have his reasons. I am afraid that when I know them, when they are explained to my baffled mind I might*..." _Dorn in The Lightning Tower_





> "I believe it is better that we don't know... to understand would be *to understand insanity*. Horus is quite mad. Chaos is by him." - _Malcador in Lightning Tower_


This might have contributed to the fall of the walls of Terra. His inability to understand his enemy, to do so, was to lose, and yet he had no other alternative but to be ignorant and in turn still lose. Would have Dorn been swayed to joining Horus had Horus and the Chaos Powers showed them what they call as the "truth." Though this would be the most difficult as Dorn was at the Emperor's side. But if indeed they had joined, they could have been a terrible agent against the Imperium. Especially a double agent literally turning there guns around on the walls of Terra.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

He could have not been an absolute 100% fucktard, and lower the shields of his flagship in orbit around terra during the seige of the Emperor's palace. Fighting the Emperor was only ever going to end in Horus getting completely bumrushed.

They had practically already smashed the palace, and if he had kept a cool head instead of being impatient, then they could have just waited and gone the whole way.

But no.

He decides to be a complete and utter chump and lower the shield, just so that the Emperor can teleport up to his ship and they can face each other one on one.

Retard.

Deserved to lose.

EDIT: Oh, we weren't sposed to list the completely obvious. My bad.

He could have kept his lackeys in better order throughout the Heresy. Night haunter going all emo and letting some measly assassin take him out was LAME (but, then again, Night Haunter IS lame, so who cares). The Emperor's Children spending most of their time listening to loud death metal while casually bumming each other didn't do much good, either. I mean they only managed to kill Guilliman, but that's hardly a challenge is it. Congratulating them for that would be like congratulating a grown man for stepping on an ant. A piss-ant. Don't even get me started on Lorgar, the absolute utter muppet-mouth..


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I think he should have spent more time trashing the other legions! then rumble on to earth!


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

He was too fast and too eager. This is a result of listening to those stupid knuckle dragger dark gods. 

If I had been Horus I would have taken more time and lured the Legions away from earth rather than hitting them head on. He started off well with the dropsite massacre, but his battle plan after that was just rubbish. 

He knew he had three Legions at large in the galaxy. Two of those Legions were serious threats to him commanded by Generals who could match and possibly better his own abilites as a general. The sensible thing to do would be to move against Ultramar and engage and destroy Guilliman first. Think about it, he's closer to Macraage than Terra and Guilliman has the single largest force of Loyalist Astartes in the Galaxy. That would put a big fat target on it for me. 

After he had done that he could turn and attack the Dark Angels. If he was canny enough he might have even caught them during their muster and even if he didn't they're a Legion with a fearsome reputation sure but they're no great size. Horus would be able to bury them with the size of the force he commanded. 

After this he would be able to move on to earth He might have to deal with the Space Wolves being on Terra now but he wouldn't have to send significant parts of three legions off to other warzones to engage very powerful enemy forces. He could concentrate all his power to one point. That way he wouldn't have had to drop his shields or duel the Big E. He could have played a comfortable waiting game that the loyalists had no hope of winning.

Thankfully he didn't do any of that because Horus obviously left his brain in his loyalist armour.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> He was too fast and too eager. This is a result of listening to those stupid knuckle dragger dark gods.


Well if we take in account that perhaps Erebus was the speaker for the gods and urged Horus to not take down his shield to the ship than maybe he should have listened to the Chaos Gods. His rash decision was his decision based on the lie and one of his remaining last consults of his will. As we see in that little spoiler they also had taken their times.



> If I had been Horus I would have taken more time and lured the Legions away from earth rather than hitting them head on. He started off well with the dropsite massacre, but his battle plan after that was just rubbish.


Interesting, which parts of his plans specifically were in your opinion most idiotic and why(as in how did they specifically hurt his traitor army?)



> He knew he had three Legions at large in the galaxy. Two of those Legions were serious threats to him commanded by Generals who could match and possibly better his own abilites as a general. The sensible thing to do would be to move against Ultramar and engage and destroy Guilliman first. Think about it, he's closer to Macraage than Terra and Guilliman has the single largest force of Loyalist Astartes in the Galaxy. That would put a big fat target on it for me.


I think that could have been a smart idea actually. If you think about it Ultramar is probably the most farthest system away from Terra so help would not be a factor. I just wonder if he could take out each world with speed. He might have to send a legion per world to do it fast enough, so that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves could be ambushed in time to not make Terra as previously planned.



> After he had done that he could turn and attack the Dark Angels. If he was canny enough he might have even caught them during their muster and even if he didn't they're a Legion with a fearsome reputation sure but they're no great size. Horus would be able to bury them with the size of the force he commanded.


Interesting... I like this idea too. Though again it is not clear to us whether doing this would benefit the Imperium by giving them replenishing time and putting more men on the walls.



> After this he would be able to move on to earth He might have to deal with the Space Wolves being on Terra now but he wouldn't have to send significant parts of three legions off to other warzones to engage very powerful enemy forces. He could concentrate all his power to one point. That way he wouldn't have had to drop his shields or duel the Big E. He could have played a comfortable waiting game that the loyalists had no hope of winning.


Horus put both the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and perhaps maybe even the Ultramarines anyway but at the cost of weakening his force ability against the walls.

Thankfully he didn't do any of that because Horus obviously left his brain in his loyalist armour.[/QUOTE]


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

I think the biggest single mistake was going to terra, all he had to do was to blokade the systems near to terra to prevent the emp getting out/supplies getting in and begin taking over the imperium bit by bit. occasionally sending small forces to reduce the number of defenders on terra. Eventually he could then launch his all out assault and fight the emporer on Horus's terms.

By going to the emp. horus left himself with only a few options 
1:take Terra before re-enforcements arrived
2:grind terra down and fend off the re-enforcements
3:retreat and give the Emp. time, and a massive morale boost/victory.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

horus was too eager to acheive victory. i think he should have waited much longer to attack any of the other legions and reveal his heresy. Terra was reasonably well defended because they were expecting Horus to attack, if they were caught by suprise things might have gone differently. although he'd still have the rest of the loyalists to worry about.


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## Yodhan (Apr 8, 2010)

I think he should have been a bit more patient and silver-tongued with the other loylaist legions. With how easy the first traitor legion bought his lies and promises of Chaos-fueled power, I wonder if some of the holdouts would have gone over with just a little more persuasion. Yes, it maybe would have made his betrayal come to light to the Emperor, but if he got another couple legions to back his rebellion, he might have had a better chance to wipe the Emperor off the face of Terra.

I also would have gone after the Wolves and the Ultramarines before I went after Terra itself, or at the very least, lured them far away and tied them up with something else. If he could have kept Russ and Guillman away long enough to take Terra, it would have been hard for them to come back and fight him off the planet, as Horus found out with the siege.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Horus attacked terra before dealing enough with the other legions. The only 2 loyalists ones that were occupied were the wolves and smurfs. The others (not including the isstavan ones) were fairly free 

The problem wasn't what Horus did wrong but what Dorn did right. Dorn made alot of rash errors but by the time he had managed to get 3 legions to terra horus was completely stuffed. Remember that it takes far less troops to defend a fort than to claim a fort. The palace complex was Horus's death warrant. 

And although you guys are complaining that Horus went mono mono with the emperor, who elso was going to kill him? Horus was the only one with the slightest chance, the big E was the most powerful psyker in the galaxy he could devastate armies on his own. Look at what Magnus done at Ullanor, and he was not as powerful as the Big E.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

mabye a direct attack wasn't the way to go. The Imperium has never seemed to need much convincing to start fighting internally. Perhaps a more covert, Alpha legion style war would have been more effective?


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## General Disarray (Apr 28, 2010)

his main error was not making sure all his forces were doing what they were supposed too, 

he should of committed all the word bearers to taking out the ultrasmurfs, that would of held them up much longer, maybe even beaten them

the emporers children should of been kept in line and actually directed against the palace and not civillians

while the alpha legion and night lords should of been commmitted in full to engaging the dark angels and space wolves, giving them more of a chance of stopping them, not on vague terror missions against loyalist worlds

maybe not be such a wimp and actually use the sons of horus, not just keep them as a reserve that barely got used

and of course don't lower your shields, he was never going to win that, at least not without a few other primarchs backing him up

just my two cents


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> _Fulgrim Page 383-384_
> 
> We all know Ferrus remained loyal, but I was thinking, that perhaps if Ferrus had been seduced better, perhaps with great reward or maybe a better believable lie that Ferrus could have been turned. Because according to what Fulgrim said, he sensed it to be true.


In regards to Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands. Horus describes the Iron Hands as an integral part of his plan and rebukes Fulgrim for not being able to sway Ferrus to Horus' side (hence why Fulgrim then vows to bring Horus his head). So I think there is definately reason to believe that had other Legions joined him (which some plausably would have given the right situation) he would have achieved much more. 



Baltar said:


> He could have not been an absolute 100% fucktard, and lower the shields of his flagship in orbit around terra during the seige of the Emperor's palace.


I think its a bit rash to say that, considering we don't know for certain why Horus actually lowered his shields.



Baltar said:


> Fighting the Emperor was only ever going to end in Horus getting completely bumrushed.


Not necessarily. The CV account of the duel has Horus holding back, savouring the death of the Emperor just as much (if not more) as the Emperor was holding back against his beloved son.



Baltar said:


> He could have kept his lackeys in better order throughout the Heresy. Night haunter going all emo and letting some measly assassin take him out was LAME (but, then again, Night Haunter IS lame, so who cares).


Take into account that happened after the Heresy and the death of Horus. And also take into account that we know next to nothing about what any of the Legions were up to during the Dark Ages of the Heresy.



Coder59 said:


> He was too fast and too eager. This is a result of listening to those stupid knuckle dragger dark gods.


Well it took him roughly 7-10 years from the Isstvan V massacre to reach Terra. But I think the principle behind him going for Terra as soon as possible was to prevent the Imperials regrouping and drawing battle lines. 



Coder59 said:


> If I had been Horus I would have taken more time and lured the Legions away from earth rather than hitting them head on. He started off well with the dropsite massacre, but his battle plan after that was just rubbish.


I agree, although generally I think thats more of a praise of the loyalist Primarchs rather than a criticism of Horus. The Ultramarines were being attacked at Calth by the Word Bearers, the Dark Angels are implied to have been engaged by the Night Lords, the Blood Angels were ambushed by Daemons, and the Space Wolves were ambushed by the Alpha Legion. Horus had his flanks and rear covered, his plan was sound, it just went wrong.



Coder59 said:


> He knew he had three Legions at large in the galaxy. Two of those Legions were serious threats to him commanded by Generals who could match and possibly better his own abilites as a general. The sensible thing to do would be to move against Ultramar and engage and destroy Guilliman first. Think about it, he's closer to Macraage than Terra and Guilliman has the single largest force of Loyalist Astartes in the Galaxy. That would put a big fat target on it for me.


Indeed. But considering Horus was unaware that the Emperor was incapacitated, who would you rather strike for? Who was the priority? Who was the larger threat? The Emperor or Guilliman? 

The Emperor obviously, thats why he went for Terra rather than trying to mop up all the Loyal Legions first. It would also beg the question that if he engaged the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves first, would his Legions have been in good enough shape to actually make it to Terra and confront the Emperor?



Yodhan said:


> If he could have kept Russ and Guillman away long enough to take Terra, it would have been hard for them to come back and fight him off the planet, as Horus found out with the siege.


Well he attempted to do that, he sent the Alpha Legion after the Space Wolves and the Word Bearers after the Ultramarines. Its not his fault it didn't work.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well no he didn't do that. He wouldn't have lowered his shields if he wasn't pressed for time.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Why not? How was he going to kill the emperor? better to fight him on his own teratory as it were than the palace.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> He wouldn't have lowered his shields if he wasn't pressed for time.


Ultimately though, we have several conflicting reasons as to why he lowered the shields on the _Vengeful Spirit_, so its not clear at all at the moment.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well tactically speaking it would seem that would be the only logical reason to lower it. If he wasn't he could have put what was left of the defenders through the grinder.... But yes we don't exactly know why. But given the fact that an imperial attack on the fleet was immanent I would think that that was the reason for it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Well tactically speaking it would seem that would be the only logical reason to lower it. If he wasn't he could have put what was left of the defenders through the grinder.... But yes we don't exactly know why. But given the fact that an imperial attack on the fleet was immanent I would think that that was the reason for it.


I'll agree that at the moment that seems the most logical reason. But we simply don't know all the variables, neither do we know exactly what was going on.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'll agree that at the moment that seems the most logical reason. But we simply don't know all the variables, neither do we know exactly what was going on.


Actually if you think about it that's the major reason. It doesn't matter what else you take into account. The major concern was the approaching Angels, Wolves and Ultramarines fleet. 

Think about it. 

Horus has his fleet deployed in orbit in order to act as support and to deliver orbital and possibly air superiority. That means he would have to be operating close to the gravity well of the planet. In that sort of situation his ships aren't going to be able to maneuver or defend themselves from an attack coming from open space very effectively.

Now we know the Loyalist fleet was incoming and Horus may not have had enough time to redeploy his fleet into battle formation before they got there. He knew his objective was to kill the Emperor above all things he needed to achieve this anything else which came afterwards was just icing on the cake. 

In that situation and taking into account Horus ego and confidence in his own powers dropping his shields and tempting the emperor aboard seems like a pretty good plan. In fact I would go on to say that it was one of the few things that Horus did during the latter part of the heresy which seemed to make strategic sense.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think the lowering of the shields by Horus was a well thought out plan but more of a rash one. Horus wanted his father to pay dearly for the "lies" he had found out and wanted to confront him one on one. I mean if Horus was really thinking about it strategically he would have taken into account the firepower that could have possibly sent his ship into oblivian and not the mere and stupid possibility that the Emperor would take into transporting into his ship. But hey...he did


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt he did it purely because he wanted to make his father pay. IMO grinding his loyalist sons into the dirt would have been far more effective.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I doubt he did it purely because he wanted to make his father pay. IMO grinding his loyalist sons into the dirt would have been far more effective.


It would have been more effective but he decided to fight the Emperor one on one and risk his ship being exploded. I mean, if he had really wanted to rush things, then why did he toy with the Emperor during the batlle? Why did he waste his time killing the Custodian while the Emperor was on the ground and just needed a killing blow. And not only did he kill him, he wasted his time obliterating him into ash. Plus the part where he takes a "brief" moment to recognize his triumph over the Custodial Guard. Did it all of a sudden turn into a game? I don't think it turned into a game, I think Horus wanted him to pay and wanted to see his father suffer for all the apparent "lies" and "suffering" the emperor given him and the legions and abandonment.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

But would he not see his palace being torn down around him? The hopeless feeling of defeat as he sat immobile on his throne unable to save his beloved sons from their inevitable doom? Yes he would and IMO the final victory would have been all the sweeter for it. Also I know he was pressed for time I am one of those who have been argueing that the major reason for lowering the shields was the threat of attack.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well it would have if Horus had done what Erebus had told him by not lowering down the shields and leading the final assault. He could have arguably had his little clash there. Then there would be a view of his armies being destroyed and his Imperium with all its fine structures being tumbling down. But no, this was personal, this was when I think Horus, wanted more than just winning this battle.


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

what i can't understand is why did the emperor teleport up onto the ship? did he not know of the reinforcments coming? why didn't he just blast horus to bits?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

moshpiler said:


> what i can't understand is why did the emperor teleport up onto the ship? why didn't he just blast horus to bits?


With what?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> With what?


The defences of Terra probably did hold enough fire power. It was enough for Horus to justify to Erebus that the Emperor would not dare fire upon his ship.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The defences of Terra probably did hold enough fire power. It was enough for Horus to justify to Erebus that the Emperor would not dare fire upon his ship.


Possibly. But take into account that much of Terra's orbital defences would have had to have been destroyed/overloaded/cut off in order for Horus' forces to enter low-orbit in the first place.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree with CotE on this one, if the defencive guns were functioning they would have fired.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

You have to take into account (and it HAS already been in at least one 40k book) that there is a point after which you can not fire at an approaching enemy ship from a planet, because it is too close.

Think about it.

These ships, especially Horus' flagship (one of the largest described in any publication) are absolutely enormous. Once they get very very close, for example in low earth orbit, so that they can drop all of their troops in a very short time, they are then too close to attack with large weaponry. This is because if you destroyed it, it's going to break apart and come crashing to the surface (eventually) - and you do NOT want a continent sized battleship falling on your fortress.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

... Too close for missles...

Switching to guns....


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I was under the impression that ships were in the 1-20 km length?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

20 km? That seems rather large. Lol could you imagine a mac round fired from a 20km long ship? Lmfao


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I think it is rather obvious. He went against terra 1/2 assed. After I5 he had effectively destroyed 3 legions leaving the emp. only 6 to his 9. Granted, some of Horus's legions were not full strength because he had to purge their numbers, but when he hit terra he had the support of Daemons and other Chaos powers which I think offset his diminished legions.

If had not gotten fancy, and done an Angron style attack with everything he had Terra would have fallen. I5 was the last nail in the Emp's coffin, he just refused to hit the nail.

You can also argue that screwing around at I3 and wittling down his numbers was stupid. They are astartes, they don't need to be "broken in".


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> I was under the impression that ships were in the 1-20 km length?


I think that they were, but I was also under the impression that there were a few exceptions that were particularly enormous. Rogal Dorn's flying fortress, Horus' battle barge, the Word bearers battleship with the prow cannon, etc etc...

Basically, even if it was "only" 20km, the point still stands.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> I think it is rather obvious. He went against terra 1/2 assed. After I5 he had effectively destroyed 3 legions leaving the emp. only 6 to his 9. Granted, some of Horus's legions were not full strength because he had to purge their numbers, but when he hit terra he had the support of Daemons and other Chaos powers which I think offset his diminished legions.".


I think Horus had enough time to replenish his legions with fresh recruits. He had given taken about 7 years and had more time than Guilleman did.



gen.ahab said:


> I agree with CotE on this one, if the defencive guns were functioning they would have fired.


Kind of makes this quote kind of pointless then:grin:



> Erebus also spoke. "My lord, this is folly. You must teleport to the surface and lead the final assault against the Palace. Without the shields we are *easy* prey. With respect, you must rescind this order."
> 
> "No. The order stands! *The Emperor will not let this ship be fired upon.* He will see this action as an invitation and a *personal challenge*. I am offering him the chance to finally confront me and finish this one way or the other. He will not be able to resist this opportunity."


 - _Collected Visions_

As you can see you have *THE WARMASTER* and Erebus who have seen the experiences of war for centuries and know the risks close proximity with their ships. Both acknowledge the stupidity in doing so. Its only Horus' ability to read his fathers actions that really lets him do it. 

And regards towards the guns... I don't think they would have been destroyed. Most of the traitor legions were probably more inclined in killing men and tearing down the wall. When inside, they would have probably been so consumed by hate that they were only killing men and not really destroying the guns... as we have seen before on Calth. The Ultramarines were able to use their guns because of the Word Bearers stupidity and anger at fighting to kill but not disable the Ultramarines.


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## shmabadu (Oct 2, 2009)

What made Horus declare his treason openly. Couldn't he have kept silent, then either created an excuse to bring the Emperor to him and kill him, or met with the Emperor on Terra and assassinated him there?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I believe that perhaps a assasination attempt will occur in upcomming Nemesis. I personally, would have challenge the Emperor while leading the final assault but whatever. 

I think what might have made Horus openly admit his treason (if he did) would his justification. Perhaps he didn't view it as treason (because the lies told to him by the ruinous power portrayed them to be real enough for him). I would ask this question, who is more of a traitor, the work dog who quits, or the master that abandons the work dog? Can a master or leader be considered a traitor? The term "turn traitor" means betray a group or person. Of course this would be Horus' view of things.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Where would Horus have got these recruits? It's not like he'd had the time frame that Luther had in order to experiment with decreasing the time from recruitment to full Astartes- 7 years isn't enough time to take an adolescent male and transform them into an effective Astartes warrior, there of course woud have been the odd exception but not in any such numbers as to match his losses.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

For chaos, I would think that it would be easier to install the traits of a "traitor marine." I mean for one thing they probably aren't looking to weed out ones that have the "slightest" hint of the "taint" as described in the recruitment of the imperial fists in their recent novel. I also think that most of the reason why it takes so long to train these recruits is that they (loyal) were also trying to weed out those that were weak of mind and self controlling. I remember an instance where the one recruit was made into a servant just for having a fist brawl with another. The traitor marines would have probably not given a fancy and just looking for more marines. Its all about, as long as your strong enough to be one, you can be one type of thing for most of the traitor legions, hence thats why they don't even use scouts anymore. They probably figured they just needed bodies at this point, kind of like Abbadon with his crusades.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

shmabadu said:


> What made Horus declare his treason openly. Couldn't he have kept silent, then either created an excuse to bring the Emperor to him and kill him, or met with the Emperor on Terra and assassinated him there?


as far as i know there was at least one attempt to assassinate the Emperor. In regards to Horus being open about his rebellion, he was a proud warrior and as such i think he would've wanted to face his enemy directly as a matter of honour.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

shmabadu said:


> What made Horus declare his treason openly. Couldn't he have kept silent


Well he was in the perfect position to declare his treason. He had eliminated the loyalist elements of 4 Legions himself (with the other Traitor Legions no doubt following suit), and when it came to revealing his treachery, it led to the near destruction of 2(3) loyalist Legions on Isstvan V and with several other loyalist Legions distracted or ambushed, it was the perfect time to strike for Terra.

If he _somehow_ managed to assassinate the Emperor (before revealing his treason), he would then have to reconquer the Imperium from scratch considering the Loyalists Legions and the Loyalist elements of the Traitor Legions would have turned on him. He would have also had a hard time persuading others to join him without his treachery going public, or if the Emperor was dead. 

But of course this doesn't stop Horus attempting to assassinate the Emperor once his betrayal had been revealed.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm not convinced that any assassination attempt would come from Horus himself. I find it hard to beleive he wouldn't want to kill the Emperor personally.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

grimdarkness said:


> I find it hard to beleive he wouldn't want to kill the Emperor personally.


Horus sends an assassin after the Emperor in the upcoming Heresy novel _Nemesis_. Or at least its implied that Horus sends one, regardless though 'another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor.'


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus sends an assassin after the Emperor in the upcoming Heresy novel _Nemesis_. Or at least its implied that Horus sends one, regardless though 'another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor.'


I know that, but it seems out of character for Horus which is what makes me think that it could be done without his knowlege or consent. we'll find out either way soon


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Personally I think the chaos gods knew that if horus delayed there was a good chance that the emperor would finish invading the webway and thus have easier access to reinforcements, supplies etc making a rebellion alot more difficult so I think they may have hurried him along. Therefore I don't really have any issue with the haste of horus' attack. That said he did waste some time in ground fighting loyalists on Isstvan III maybe he should have tried restraining Angron a little earlier.

One thing I never understood is why horus didn't just crash a few cruisers into the palace rather than lowering his shields. I think the possibility of wiping out three primarchs and their legions aswell as the emperor and his custodes is more than worth a few kamikaze battle barges. Or maybe teleported himself off vengeful spirit as soon as the emp got there, raising shields (to prevent emp porting out) then self destructing the ship.

Maybe if he had swapped the role of the alpha legion (tieing up reinforecements) with that of the emperors children (supposed to be assaulting the palace but instead killing off the populace) he may have breached the palace sooner. I mean he must have at least suspected that the emperors children were going to be hard to control and might be drawn away by the urge to experiment given that their primarch was posessed. 

Apart from that maybe horus shouldn't have flayed that lone termie/custode/guardsman. :grin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Personally I think the chaos gods knew that if horus delayed there was a good chance that the emperor would finish invading the webway and thus have easier access to reinforcements, supplies etc


But Tzeentch via Magnus had already screwed up that plan. The Golden Throne was crippled, the wards around the palace were shattered and the Emperor was forced to use his own powers to keep it sealed. Considering the Emperor didn't fix this problem in the years up until the Siege of Terra, its safe to assume Horus didn't have to rush because of this.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> That said he did waste some time in ground fighting loyalists on Isstvan III maybe he should have tried restraining Angron a little earlier.


Considering there was around 7-10 years between Isstvan V and the Siege of Terra, not much time was wasted on Isstvan III. And not that Isstvan III made a difference time wise anyway, Horus would have had to have still waited, entrenched on Isstvan V to ensnare the loyalist Legions.



NiceGuyEddy said:


> One thing I never understood is why horus didn't just crash a few cruisers into the palace rather than lowering his shields. I think the possibility of wiping out three primarchs and their legions aswell as the emperor and his custodes is more than worth a few kamikaze battle barges. Or maybe teleported himself off vengeful spirit as soon as the emp got there, raising shields (to prevent emp porting out) then self destructing the ship.


While those suggestions have their restrictions. I think the main reason why that didn't happen would be the rule of cool.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Could the forces of Chaos not told Horus of the webway so he could go via that route?

To keep in line with the thread, if I were Horus I'd have virus bombed Terra, obviously its not going to get everyone, but surely a fair chunk of the resistance would be turned to soup.
Then Id have made the Sigilite a priority killing, but most importantly I would have spent more time attempting to sway at least one or two more Primarch's like the Lion for instance


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kickback said:


> Could the forces of Chaos not told Horus of the webway so he could go via that route?


The Webway was warded against Chaos intrusion. It was easily beyond Horus' reach.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Were these wards not destroyed by Magnus?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kickback said:


> Were these wards not destroyed by Magnus?


The wards of the Imperial Palace, and the Imperial built section of the Webway were yes, hence why the Emperor had to sit on the Golden Throne.

But the wards to the Webway itself (which kept it seperate from the warp) were untouched. There was no way Horus could have accessed the Webway, in fact he was even unaware of its existence.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Ahh danke, as always my good sir, its been illuminating


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

The only thing I can think of would be putting a greater emphasis on rotating loyalist legions away from Terra and replacing them with his guys. However, there's always the issue of how long they could kee the corruption hidden, especially if everyone in the Terra system was a Traitor in disguise.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> However, there's always the issue of how long they could kee the corruption hidden, especially if everyone in the Terra system was a Traitor in disguise.


Indeed. But take into account that an element of the Word Bearers Legion under Sor Talgron was acting in the Sol System immediately prior to/during the Heresy. Its also implied in _Dark Creed_ that they managed to infiltrate the Imperial Palace prior to the Siege of Terra.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Why didn't he just do what the Saroshi did? (spoiler alert for people who are reading/are going to read Descent of Angels!)

Place some nukes on a shuttle, go and visit your enemy and then you blow the shuttle... 

With the emperors death the Imperium would have such a mental meltdown they won't try to resist.


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## pariha (Dec 1, 2009)

he could have nuked the site from orbit, it is the only way to be sure.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

pariha said:


> he could have nuked the site from orbit, it is the only way to be sure.


Ahh, my favourite film of all time.

I bet when the traitors landed someone might have said "there's movement all over the place" and then "lets rock!"

and I'd love the Emperor when he walked in to find Horus standing over Sanguinius' body to say "get away from him you bitch!!"

Aliens is an awesome film! :biggrin:


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## pariha (Dec 1, 2009)

yes, yes it is and always will be


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## Liam Eraser (May 6, 2010)

Not become evil and take on the entire Galaxy?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Nothing, since his actions created the best outcome the chaos Gods could hope for. More conflict = more strife/suffering = stronger chaos gods.


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