# Helsreach *spoilers*



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I finished this book today, and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. Reading this so soon after _Soul Hunter,_ I knew the standard would be high, and I wasn't disappointed. 

The story begins shortly after Grimaldus has been promoted to Reclusiarch upon the death of his mentor, when he is ordered by High Marshal Helbrecht to command the small crusade that will remain on Armageddon while the rest of the BT force battles the orks in orbit. He feels this is a job not worthy of him, and this feeling is shared by the sword bretheren that accompany him.

One thing that has jumped out at me about the 2 ADB novels I have read is the depth of the characters he creates. He really brings his characters to life, making you like them or hate them, even if they are just incidental characters. Grimaldus is a true BT, full of zeal and hate for the enemies of the Imperium, but some of his awkward interactions with normal humans are quite amusing. But for me the best character in the book was Andrej, a Steel Legion storm trooper assigned command of a unit of militia who is determined to marry one of his squad mates, in his opinion the best looking woman on the planet. He really provides some moments of light relief, with one in particular making me laugh out loud

Despite his feelings for the mission he has been given, Grimaldus sets to it with a vengeance, and manages to keep part of a titan legion in the city despite their desire to leave. He further ruffles their Ad Mech feathers by blasphemously ordering the awakening of a legendary weapon from the first war without the proper rites and rituals. 

He also comes into conflict the Salamanders when they finally arrive to assist, unable or unwilling to understand their desire to protect the civilian population when they could be hunting down and crushing the ork invaders. 

The action is very well written, with everything from titan battles to down and dirty street fighting, but it isn't all about the action. This for me is a very character driven story, and I felt genuinly sad as they each met their deaths. 

On the whole, _Soul Hunter_, and now _Helsreach_ have me thinking that Abnett and McNeill are about to be overtaken in some style in the coming years by ADB. 

Now, I'm off to buy _Cadian Blood.k:_


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Despite his feelings for the mission he has been given, Grimaldus sets to it with a vengeance, and manages to keep part of a titan legion in the city despite their desire to leave. He further ruffles their Ad Mech feathers by blasphemously ordering the awakening of a legendary weapon from the first war without the proper rites and rituals.


FINALLY!. Somebody has the guts to tell the cogboys to just shut up and do it.



Khorne's Fist said:


> The action is very well written, with everything from titan battles to down and dirty street fighting, but it isn't all about the action. This for me is a very character driven story, and I felt genuinly sad as they each met their deaths.
> 
> On the whole, _Soul Hunter_, and now _Helsreach_ have me thinking that Abnett and McNeill are about to be overtaken in some style in the coming years by ADB.


Im looking forward to getting this book. And I agree, ADB is bringing a new style of writing to 40k and I eagerly await more of his work.


----------



## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm nearly done with it as well. I've thoroughly enjoyed this book and rank it right up there with Soul Hunter as no.2 in my top ten. Aaron has finally put some hair on the chest of Grimaldus. He's much different than what i had envisioned for so many years. I'm glad to see this slightly autistic side of him. The way he interacts with the humans really does feel quite awkward, being caught off guard by some of the things that they say. Grimaldus feels to me very black and white (no pun intended) with his feelings about what is honorable and what isn't. He either views things as highly honorable/admirable , or completely ridiculous. there is no in-between with him. 

CP


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Commissar Ploss said:


> Grimaldus feels to me very black and white (no pun intended)


:grin:

After reading Aaron's blog entry; "Our City, Our World" - and reading the mostly positive receptions (actually in fact I havn't ready a negative review yet) i've decided to purchase _Helsreach_, despite my usual dislike of Imperial Astartes novels. Look forward to reading it.


----------



## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

I was actually in the middle of reading the Eisenhorn trilogy when "helsreach" dropped on my doormat. Normally I don't do this, but I couldn't wait to start reading about Grimaldus...so I put Eisenhorn away for now.
(@dead.blue.clown: yes, I put Mr Abnett down for Mr ADB).

Nearing the end in Helsreach and I must say; What a great story!
Really liked the bits with the stormtrooper Andrej, he's a funny guy. The characters in the sidelines really help to create a good picture of the siege as a whole.
The first-person bits of Grimaldus are done well, it helps to explain his mindset.

This one made my top 5 list with ease, so my advice is: GO OUT AND GET YOURSELF A COPY NOW.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

This is not a bad novel let me go on record as saying that to begin with, but it's not a fantastic novel- it would be in my Top 25 BL books but nearer the bottom than the top of that list.

Something about _Helsreach_ didn't capture me the way _Soul Hunter_ did (a book which is definitely in my Top 10), I can't quite put my finger on it but all the way through I felt some what dissatified by it- probably because it was ADB and I expected to be swept off my feet but, as with Spiderman 3, the anticipation was too great to be met by the final product.

I recommend getting it (it is still in my Top 25 after all ) but unlike the promise of _Soul Hunter, __Helsreach_ is not going to allow Aaron to threaten Abnett and McNeill as BL's best authors (sorry ADB you're stuck in 4th place).


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> _Helsreach_ is not going to allow Aaron to threaten Abnett and McNeill as BL's best authors (sorry ADB you're stuck in 4th place).


Who's in third after Abnett and McNeill?


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Im going to guess either Nick Kyme or Sandy Mitchell.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Im going to guess either Nick Kyme or Sandy Mitchell.


James Swallow? Gav Thorpe? Both are highly talented to me, with some good work, and contributions to show.

As for _Helscreach_, I anticipate it well, in a Group-read with several other people.:biggrin:


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

My favourite authors are Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Anthony Reynolds and Sandy Mitchell in that order.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

My placing would be as such:

1st- Dan Abnett
2nd- Graham McNeill
3rd- Gav Thorpe
4th- Aaron
5th- Sandy Mitchell
6th- Anthony Reynolds


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> My placing would be as such:
> 
> 1st- Dan Abnett
> 2nd- Graham McNeill
> ...


Switch 4 for 3, and that'd be pretty much my list.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If The First Heretic is as awesome as I hope I probably will switch 3rd and 4th place, but Soul Hunter is the only 1 of Aaron's 3 books that really entranced me (not that Cadian Blood and Helsreach weren't good books). Whereas I loved Angels of Darkness, Malekith and Shadowking from Gav Thorpe


----------



## Anomagnus (May 24, 2010)

Helsreach was a fantastic read. I was slightly thrown by the the fist person perspective, as i think it is a hard way to tell a story, but when the structure of the book was revealed, i was very impressed by how it was handled.

In particular, i think Aaron really showed the character of the Templars. You would nearly think they invented wrath and zeal. 

A fantastic read, better than Rynn's World, and apart from Thousand Sons and Soul Hunter, the best 40K book so far this year.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Started Helsreach today, and im certainly impressed by the sheer impact I get from this book, for the suprisingly succinct descriptions, a triumph for first-person narrative? 

After the rash zealousy of Elysius from_ Salamander_, the pious and grim (as beffiting a son of Dorn) demeanour of Grimaldus to be intruiging. Im stil suprised I feel compassion for that stone-hearted Chaplain *Curses the first-person narrative*

Looking forwards to all the other blood-drenches goodies once the killing begins... Though I don`t expect _Helsreach_ to defy a 6/7 from a potential of 10 after the ''Meh'' of _Rynn`s World_.


----------



## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I would have loved a bit of comic relief with the Ordinance and the Titans face off
"Exit holy Oberon now!"
"Ask yourself, how long was it since I last fired the nova cannon? 22 minutes or 23? Feeling lucky? Huh do ya, Princeps."

What I do love about this is that the space marines arn't immortal, when one jump packed to save the imperial guard troopers I thought "either he'll survive, say something cool and run off OR get wounded saved and then run off" Nope he was killed outright along with 99 others. No more overpowered imperium, not even an Imperator can stand up to ADB and his injection of fairness.


----------



## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

Exchange between Grimaldus and Jurisian

Grim: "Will we be able to return to the surface once we go down?"
Jurisian: "There is a 33.3% chance the the return ascent will require additional maintenance and reconfiguring. There is a further 29% chance that no reconfiguring will restore function without access to the primary installation power network."
Grim: "The word your looking for brother, is "maybe"."

Laughed so hard at this. Typical tech-marine. I did like the 1st person point of view he used. Did not like the end. Temple collapsed, next page Grimmy is out and about. Kinda odd. Ive been playing Templars since before Armageddon, so I'm was skeptical. Overall, good read.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i worship the ground abnett and mcneil walk on as i feel part of the action and antony reynolds is fast becoming one of my favs along side gav thorpe but ADB certainly captured the night lords well in soul hunter especially with the conflict between the exaulted and the soul hunter and i shied aware from imperial astartes but i am enjoying the salamanders series and i read sons of dorn in one day so i will be certainly getting hellreach


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> If The First Heretic is as awesome as I hope I probably will switch 3rd and 4th place, but Soul Hunter is the only 1 of Aaron's 3 books that really entranced me (not that Cadian Blood and Helsreach weren't good books). Whereas I loved Angels of Darkness, Malekith and Shadowking from Gav Thorpe


so when is first heretic hitting the shelves i have heard so much about it i can feel my mouth water in anticipation


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The First Heretic is scheduled to hit shelves in November- but I'm sure some stores will have it in by mid-October (GW Stoke always seems to have the books earlier than they're advertised).


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

thanks looking foward to it


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@_gothik_: Check out the Coming Soon (in particular The First Heretic) section on the Black Library website, it covers all the novels/audio books being released up until next May.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The First Heretic is scheduled to hit shelves in November- but I'm sure some stores will have it in by mid-October (GW Stoke always seems to have the books earlier than they're advertised).


Baron Spikey has it spot-on. Though scheduled for November, I suspect it, alongside _Firedrake_ (Tome of Fire Book Two; Salamander sequel) will be released during the later third of October- If not even earlier...

As for _The First Heretic_, I must admit I`m very intruiged as to whether the author can ''Pull it off''. After the legacy of the Word Bearers penned by Anthony Reynolds, alongside Scions of the Storm to an utterly excellent degree (the latter arguably the best in _Tales of Heresy_; yes, more so than _Blood Games_) I feel AD-B has one vast challenge to even compare to Reynolds, but good luck to him for such...

To those who obviously know more, from zealotic Blog-reading, will _The First Heretic_ be similar to_ Fulgrim_, in the aspect of re-living varying moments from previous Horus Heresy title`s from a different perspective? (although without Isstvan V.... I think?)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> To those who obviously know more, from zealotic Blog-reading, will _The First Heretic_ be similar to_ Fulgrim_, in the aspect of re-living varying moments from previous Horus Heresy title`s from a different perspective? (although without Isstvan V.... I think?)


_The First Heretic_ starts just before _Scions of the Storm_, than tells the events of _Scions of the Storm_ briefly from another perspective, and then takes the story further. Ending up with the Word Bearers en route to Calth. At least thats what I remember Aaron saying, may be slightly wrong in the details so don't quote me on that.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _The First Heretic_ starts just before _Scions of the Storm_, than tells the events of _Scions of the Storm_ briefly from another perspective, and then takes the story further. Ending up with the Word Bearers en route to Calth. At least thats what I remember Aaron saying, may be slightly wrong in the details so don't quote me on that.


Awesome. Can`t wait for more to be added to the Scions of the Storm story, maybe the Emperor`s reprimand of Lorgar, and the reason why the planet was bombarded to ruination? (Either the Emperor feared the planets worship of him as a deity thus wanted it destroyed before it could corrupt the Legion further, or Lorgar`s hate of the God-Emperor led him to its outright genocide?) anyway, a great, and fundamental part of the Heresy, I hope is written to a deserving quality.


----------



## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I have yet to read Helsreach, or any of the Space Marine Battles novels. However seeing as this has turned into a discussion on The First Heretic, I can give some input. If this follows the Marines who go to Calth, that still allows a second novel on the Word Bearers about those who go to Terra, does it not? I am still a bit miffed that Reynolds hasn't got this novel, because in my opinion he has put more dedication into the Word Bearers than anyone ever will. I would love to see him write about Sor Talgron and the 34th, although I think I already knew what happens to the former


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

dark angel said:


> I have yet to read Helsreach, or any of the Space Marine Battles novels. However seeing as this has turned into a discussion on The First Heretic, I can give some input. If this follows the Marines who go to Calth, that still allows a second novel on the Word Bearers about those who go to Terra, does it not? I am still a bit miffed that Reynolds hasn't got this novel, because in my opinion he has put more dedication into the Word Bearers than anyone ever will. I would love to see him write about Sor Talgron and the 34th, although I think I already knew what happens to the former


_Helsreach_ isn`t bad. I gave it a 4/5, but was being far to credulous, but fundamentally it enthralls you with some good persona`s of the Steel Legion, and varying other Human and Adeptus Mechanicus characters... _Rynn`s World_ is loathsome. It is the epitome of the ways in which Adeptus Astartes should act, its more Codex-adhering than the Ultramarines Omnibus, and Codex-Huggers versus Ork`s (without Titan`s) is always boring...

Aye, I`m still surprised Reynolds hasn`t got the Word Bearers; Scions of the Storm and his entire Trilogy of novels were superb, or so you say of the latter:grin:. Though my copy of _Dark Apostle _is beneath several other books, and in waiting. To be honest, I hope AD-B does indeed pull it off. Would be a shame to a rather flawless host of books, if it was not - the _Fulgrim_ of the Word Bearers to an extent this seem`s to be, hopefully the author inheriting one of the most key and fanatical Legion`s proves to be a boon to what Reynolds has founded.

Such said, I`m rather perturbed as to why the hell Reynolds has not written anything larger than a short-story for the Heresy? Those with lesser talent, such as Scanlon, Mike Lee and Counter have been given the chance, why not he? Why not Thorpe also? 
_
Edit_ - Bloody Ninja! Although without warranting another post, I would counter the Kyme argument by saying how McNeil also holds the Iron Warrior`s, and a major segment of the Emperor`s Children. Reynolds` contributions were solely that of the Word Bearers.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dark angel said:


> If this follows the Marines who go to Calth, that still allows a second novel on the Word Bearers about those who go to Terra, does it not?


No doubt that Sor Talgron and the contingent of Word Bearers under his command that act 'under cover' in the Sol System will be featured in some future novel (if not in _The First Heretic_). Although it wouldn't exactly warrant a full novel in and of itself.



dark angel said:


> I am still a bit miffed that Reynolds hasn't got this novel, because in my opinion he has put more dedication into the Word Bearers than anyone ever will.


We don't know what happened or why Aaron got _The First Heretic_ over Reynolds, or indeed why Reynolds isn't on the Heresy Team (apart from his minor role in _Tales of Heresy_), so lets not jump to conclusions. Antony made a great contribution to the 40k BL with his Word Bearers series, but that doesn't mean that no one else can write Word Bearers.  I dont see anyone moaning about Kyme writing Ultramarines, even though Mcneill has by far written the most concerning the boys in blue. This is no different.



dark angel said:


> I would love to see him write about Sor Talgron and the 34th, although I think I already knew what happens to the former


To Sor Talgron? We thinking that hes the Warmonger? That would pretty epic. 



bobss said:


> Such said, I`m rather perturbed as to why the hell Reynolds has not written anything larger than a short-story for the Heresy? Those with lesser talent, such as Scanlon, Mike Lee and Counter have been given the chance, why not he? Why not Thorpe also?


I agree, im suprised Reynolds hasn't had a novel yet, or at least one planned (obviously he shouldn't be restricted to Word Bearers because he handled them in 40k as some people seem to think). Hes a good writer. 

Gav Thorpe has confirmed he will be writing for the Heresy Series at some point though.


----------



## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

The battles books are awesome, but they end so abruptly. In Helsreach I would have loved 10 more pages detailing what happened after the Season of Fire. A bit about the War and a bit about that characters after the war, ya know.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We don't know what happened or why Aaron got _The First Heretic_ over Reynolds, or indeed why Reynolds isn't on the Heresy Team (apart from his minor role in _Tales of Heresy_), so lets not jump to conclusions. Antony made a great contribution to the 40k BL with his Word Bearers series, but that doesn't mean that no one else can write Word Bearers.  I dont see anyone moaning about Kyme writing Ultramarines, even though Mcneill has by far written the most concerning the boys in blue. This is no different.


I can shed some light on this. The Horus Heresy series is invitation-only, and books aren't handed out; I didn't 'get' _The First Heretic_ over anyone. I was invited onto the team after _Soul Hunter_, and asked to pitch for the series. I pitched a novel about the Word Bearers, and the editors and Heresy team loved it. 

There are a lot of factors that go into a Heresy author invitation. It's not as simple as "He did a faction really well" and "No one else is allowed to touch that faction, ever ever ever". Because, really, that would be sort of stupid and extremely limiting.

Things taken into account are: the writer's own talent, regardless of what a few people on a forum might say; overall sales; potential storylines pitched; fan feedback; and editorial judgement.

Saying one guy has put "more dedication into" something than "anyone else ever will" is, well, just stupid. No offence, but it's nonsense - especially from the mouth of someone who has stated clearly "I don't like him because he's new, and I don't like new things". I'll write 3 or 6 novels about the Night Lords, about one of the Legions I love. That doesn't mean no one else can ever write about them, or that I've invested more in them than anyone else _ever will_. It just means I wrote a series, and there's a good chance people would like to see more of it in the 30K setting.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

dark angel said:


> I have yet to read Helsreach, or any of the Space Marine Battles novels. However seeing as this has turned into a discussion on The First Heretic, I can give some input. If this follows the Marines who go to Calth, that still allows a second novel on the Word Bearers about those who go to Terra, does it not?


You'll probably find there'll be several novels, not just two. We've got several years of open galactic civil war before anyone gets to Terra.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I can shed some light on this. The Horus Heresy series is invitation-only, and books aren't handed out; I didn't 'get' _The First Heretic_ over anyone. I was invited onto the team after _Soul Hunter_, and asked to pitch for the series. I pitched a novel about the Word Bearers, and the editors and Heresy team loved it.
> 
> There are a lot of factors that go into a Heresy author invitation. It's not as simple as "He did a faction really well" and "No one else is allowed to touch that faction, ever ever ever". Because, really, that would be sort of stupid and extremely limiting.
> 
> Things taken into account are: the writer's own talent, regardless of what a few people on a forum might say; overall sales; potential storylines pitched; fan feedback; and editorial judgement.


Im guessing that it wasn't always so. Mike Lee, Mitchel Scanlon and Ben Counter all have a single novel in the Horus Heresy series and then no more. I imagine that the response to one of their novels prompted the invitation-only policy of the Heresy series, either that or all three of those novels.

I know that Ben Counter isn't anymore but are Mike Lee and Mitchel Scanlon still on the Horus Heresy team?.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

bobss said:


> Baron Spikey has it spot-on. Though scheduled for November, I suspect it, alongside _Firedrake_ (Tome of Fire Book Two; Salamander sequel) will be released during the later third of October- If not even earlier...
> 
> As for _The First Heretic_, I must admit I`m very intruiged as to whether the author can ''Pull it off''. After the legacy of the Word Bearers penned by Anthony Reynolds, alongside Scions of the Storm to an utterly excellent degree (the latter arguably the best in _Tales of Heresy_; yes, more so than _Blood Games_) I feel AD-B has one vast challenge to even compare to Reynolds, but good luck to him for such...


Actually according to Nick Kyme as long as the first draft of _Firedrake_ goes through the editing process without issue, it will be available at the next Games Day. And he will be there signing it.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To Sor Talgron? We thinking that hes the Warmonger? That would pretty epic.


I dunno about that. If I had to guess then i'd say The Warmonger is indeed Sor Talgron but until its confirmed ill keep an open mind. Though im still hoping that The Warmonger survived fighting the Necron Lord.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree, im suprised Reynolds hasn't had a novel yet, or at least one planned (obviously he shouldn't be restricted to Word Bearers because he handled them in 40k as some people seem to think). Hes a good writer.
> 
> Gav Thorpe has confirmed he will be writing for the Heresy Series at some point though.


Reynolds should get an invite. He is an excellent author and has written the very best Chaos Space Marines series to date. The Word Bearers are my favourite Chaos Legion and it was very nice, still is, to see them portrayed as awesomely as I imagined them.

And considering he can't write about Penal Legions or Eldar, I think its pretty obvious who and what he will be writing about... *'Repent!'*


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

bobss said:


> As for _The First Heretic_, I must admit I`m very intruiged as to whether the author can ''Pull it off''. After the legacy of the Word Bearers penned by Anthony Reynolds, alongside Scions of the Storm to an utterly excellent degree (the latter arguably the best in _Tales of Heresy_; yes, more so than _Blood Games_) I feel AD-B has one vast challenge to even compare to Reynolds, but good luck to him for such...


I write completely differently to Anthony Reynolds, and with the greatest respect to him (as a fan of his Bretonnia work), Scions of the Storm didn't hit the Word Bearer-related things I'd been looking for in the Heresy. I found it hard to believe that the one Legion ever to fail the Emperor in the Great Crusade - and worshipped him as a god for 100 years - was chastised in a way that only got mentioned at a captains' meeting. 

It's interesting to see the difference of expectation, even across different forums. Here's pretty much the only place I've seen where even a couple of people are curiously, but adamantly, resistant to the idea of anyone else touching the Word Bearers - or are somehow worried about it.

Ultimately, Dan and my editors have read _The First Heretic_, and absolutely loved it. So I'm not exactly worried about its reception. But everyone likes different things. That's just life. I look at people who think _Galaxy in Flames_ is the best Horus Heresy novel and I wonder if they're from a different planet to me. I look at people who hate _Legion_ and I think the same thing.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Im guessing that it wasn't always so. Mike Lee, Mitchel Scanlon and Ben Counter all have a single novel in the Horus Heresy series and then no more. I imagine that the response to one of their novels prompted the invitation-only policy of the Heresy series, either that or all three of those novels.
> 
> I know that Ben Counter isn't anymore but are Mike Lee and Mitchel Scanlon still on the Horus Heresy team?.


Ben Counter has written 2 HH novels- Galaxy in Flames and Battle for the Abyss.


If Reynolds had put as much into the Word Bearers as, say, Raymond E.Feist has into the Midkemia books then I'd agree and say he should have dibbs on them. But he's written 3 novels on them, from mainly a single warband's point of view- wow he's really captured the entire legion there


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I write completely differently to Anthony Reynolds, and with the greatest respect to him (as a fan of his Bretonnia work), Scions of the Storm didn't hit the Word Bearer-related things I'd been looking for in the Heresy. I found it hard to believe that the one Legion ever to fail the Emperor in the Great Crusade - and worshipped him as a god for 100 years - was chastised in a way that only got mentioned at a captains' meeting.
> 
> It's interesting to see the difference of expectation, even across different forums. Here's pretty much the only place I've seen where even a couple of people are curiously, but adamantly, resistant to the idea of anyone else touching the Word Bearers - or are somehow worried about it.
> 
> Ultimately, Dan and my editors have read _The First Heretic_, and absolutely loved it. So I'm not exactly worried about its reception. But everyone likes different things. That's just life. I look at people who think _Galaxy in Flames_ is the best Horus Heresy novel and I wonder if they're from a different planet to me. I look at people who hate _Legion_ and I think the same thing.


I enjoyed Scions of the Storm immeasurably. For a short-story it accomplished what it strived to achieve: giving us, the reader, an insight or glimmer into the hierachy of the Word Bearers, the rammifications of Lorgar`s reprimand by the Emperor, yet more of Erebus` slanderous demeanour, but still leaving ample intruige, confusion and debate. Besides, Erebus seemed pretty riven with Chaos at the time, Kor Phaeron is but the typical (from the Short, in my own opinion) and loyal Astartes and Sor Talgron as the doubtful, Emperor-loyal protagonist... again, from the extract...

Dont get me wrong, I`m not particularly against You doing the Word Bearers, I just feel Reynolds` work upon the Legion has really propelled them, and yes, I am curious, if not adamant and a little anxious about The First Heretic`s overall impact on the look of the Legion, though of course this is but your interpretation. As for Spikey`s.... comment.... then McNeill has but written of the 4th Company Ultramarines, and wields the major decision concerning the Sons of Guilliman (Macragge Battle Novel possible) alongside the Iron Warriors, Dan Abnett upon the Alpha Legion, James Swallow the Blood Angels, with the intention of writing their conflict on Signus Prime... Sure, the warband from the Word Bearer`s Trilogy are but one splinter of the Legion, but the series serves as a microcosm for the Legion as a whole...

As for reception? Heh, I certainly enjoyed_ Helsreach_, _Soul Hunter _was interesting, and frankly I could swear upon my right-hand that on ''here'' you will get heaped praise by many...


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

as a lorgar fan (gotta love these zealot types they think thier way is right and no other way) i am truely looking foward to First Heretic and to agree with Baron and DA i am beginng to believe that the warmonger is sar talgon (did i spell that right) but i thought the warmonger was a chaplain/dark aspostle?? anyway i am off to buy hellsreach tomorrow and think i will listen to the salamanders audio that i haven't got round to listening to yet.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

bobss said:


> I enjoyed Scions of the Storm immeasurably. For a short-story it accomplished what it strived to achieve: giving us, the reader, an insight or glimmer into the hierachy of the Word Bearers, the rammifications of Lorgar`s reprimand by the Emperor, yet more of Erebus` slanderous demeanour, but still leaving ample intruige, confusion and debate. Besides, Erebus seemed pretty riven with Chaos at the time, Kor Phaeron is but the typical (from the Short, in my own opinion) and loyal Astartes and Sor Talgron as the doubtful, Emperor-loyal protagonist... again, from the extract...


If you considered Kor Phaeron to be a typical and loyal Astartes then Reynolds did something wrong as it was Kor Phaeron who corrupted Lorgar.


bobss said:


> Dont get me wrong, I`m not particularly against You doing the Word Bearers, I just feel Reynolds` work upon the Legion has really propelled them, and yes, I am curious, if not adamant and a little anxious about The First Heretic`s overall impact on the look of the Legion, though of course this is but your interpretation. As for Spikey`s.... comment.... then McNeill has but written of the 4th Company Ultramarines, and wields the major decision concerning the Sons of Guilliman (Macragge Battle Novel possible) alongside the Iron Warriors, Dan Abnett upon the Alpha Legion, James Swallow the Blood Angels, with the intention of writing their conflict on Signus Prime... Sure, the warband from the Word Bearer`s Trilogy are but one splinter of the Legion, but the series serves as a microcosm for the Legion as a whole...


Well there's an Ultramarine Battle novel coming out and it's not written by McNeill, neither was Battle for the Abyss or the forthcoming Heresy story concerning an Ultramarine and Salamander.

Abnett has done 1 book regarding the Alpha Legion- he has as much right to call dibbs on that Legion as Andy Hoare does with the White Scars.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Abnett has done 1 book regarding the Alpha Legion- he has as much right to call dibbs on that Legion as Andy Hoare does with the White Scars.


True but would you want anyone else writing an Alpha Legion novel, with all the acclaim that Legion has I would think that while Abnett may not have that kind of claim to them, he should.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> If you considered Kor Phaeron to be a typical and loyal Astartes then Reynolds did something wrong as it was Kor Phaeron who corrupted Lorgar.
> 
> As mentioned, I conjured this opinion of Kor Phaeron, and even Sor Talgron from Scions of the Storm; if your so damned sure of yourself, how about you read it again? Because there is *very* little condemning Kor Phaeron as the slanderous villain. To rammify my point, the finale of the short-story, once asked to support Lorgar`s own persuasion of Sor Talgron towards this ''new regieme'' evisioned by Lorgar, Phaeron merely acknowledges his liege`s words, not spreading retorts and jibes like Erebus did, once more *In the short-story*
> 
> ...


I agree with Lord of the Night, upon his point: Some author`s are so inbuilt within their ''chosen Legion/Chapter'' and have added so much to their imagery, traditions and characters, that they should be always considered highly when this same Chapter or Legion are to be written of again. Swallow with the Blood Angels, McNeill the Iron Warriors et cetera...


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

bobss said:


> I agree with Lord of the Night, upon his point: Some author`s are so inbuilt within their ''chosen Legion/Chapter'' and have added so much to their imagery, traditions and characters, that they should be always considered highly when this same Chapter or Legion are to be written of again. Swallow with the Blood Angels, McNeill the Iron Warriors et cetera...


Absolutely. Except for two things.

Firstly, the Heresy series is a chance for many of those same authors to do something else, which is what they want to do, and are encouraged by the editors.

Secondly, what about the people who don't much like that author's portrayal of Faction X in the past? Because their voice matters just as much, and in some cases, they're pretty significant in number.

You think Y should do Z. I think A should do B. That Guy thinks M should do N. In some of these cases, the numbers are a little out of whack. There's no consensus even on a small forum that "Joe Joeman _must _do this faction because of his work in the past" let alone across all the forums, or the fandom itself.

That's what I find interesting. When people are so utterly behind one author that they reject another out of hand. I've seen it happen when they say no one else would do the Night Lords in the Heresy as well as me, or the Blood Angels as well as Jim, or the Ultramarines as well as Graham. For every one of those opinions, you've got ones to counter it - it's just difficult to bring the fact across sometimes that people don't understand that their opinion is just their opinion. Yeah, you loved Series X. Not everyone did. Yeah, you hated Book Y. Not everyone did. 

For every 1 instance of "Aaron shouldn't touch the Word Bearers", I've seen a hundred saying they're glad I'm doing it instead of anyone else. That opinion is no more objectively correct than anyone else's, even if it's one that's a boon to see. I figure it's all about perspective: like you said, some authors should be considered highly. That doesn't mean no one else can touch the faction, because that would be poisonous to the license, and make for some dull reading after a while.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

bobss said:


> I agree with Lord of the Night, upon his point: Some author`s are so inbuilt within their ''chosen Legion/Chapter'' and have added so much to their imagery, traditions and characters, that they should be always considered highly when this same Chapter or Legion are to be written of again. Swallow with the Blood Angels, McNeill the Iron Warriors et cetera...


I said Reynolds did something wrong because he portrayed Kor Phaeron as being the typical, loyal Astartes not that your view point of the character in the short story was flawed.

Authors don't own Legions- I don't want to read from a single author's view point, they don't get to exclusively write about *our* Legions so I don't see why all the stories about them should be from that single person's imagination.

I'd like to Abnett or McNeill to do Blood Angels, Reynolds to do Dark Angels etc basically I want a pool of authors to get a proper immersion for the Legions.

Have you ever thought that mabe Anthony Reynolds didn't want to do a HH novel? It surely eats up a lot of time and he might have things to do he considers more important.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Ive got no problem with authors writing series about certain factions that already have a large backstory and culture defined by another author. If Graham McNeill wanted to write some Blood Angels i'd be fine with that, in fact i'd be happy since McNeill does Space Marines very very well. And if Anthony Reynolds wanted to write Ultramarines then i'd be fine with that because he did a Ultramarine's successor chapter very well and im sure he'd do the true Sons of Guilliman proud.

However if an author totally disregards another's work then I have a problem. If Dan Abnett decided to write a Word Bearers novel but totally disregarded Anthony Reynold's I would not be happy, if he took his work into account and wrote his own take on the Sons of Lorgar then as long as its good i'd be fine. Problem is sometimes authors get it wrong. Jim Swallow's Word Bearer Garand the Witch-Prince, a Tzeentch-worshipping Sorcerer is as far from the Word Bearer archetype laid down unto us in the Index Astartes and the Word Bearers series.

Certain authors lay down the groundwork on factions with their novels, elaborating their beliefs, culture, appearance and history. Graham McNeill has the Ultramarines, Jim Swallow has the Blood Angels, Anthony Reynolds has the Word Bearers, Nick Kyme has the Salamanders and ADB has the Night Lords. Now if only McNeill would give the Iron Warriors a full series I would be ecstatic.

To sum it up I feel that if an author has pioneered a faction, like McNeill has with the Ultramarines and ADB has with the Night Lords, they should always be considered to write the novels about them but if another wishes to take a shot at writing them then we should allow it and judge it on the merit of their work.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

It could be that some of the authors that haven't written any HH novels haven't done so due to poor "pitches" to BL, but out of fear for their physical well-being from a horde of angry fans that weren't happy about their particular take on their beloved Legion.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> However if an author totally disregards another's work then I have a problem. If Dan Abnett decided to write a Word Bearers novel but totally disregarded Anthony Reynold's I would not be happy, if he took his work into account and wrote his own take on the Sons of Lorgar then as long as its good i'd be fine.


This is an interesting situation. Ultimately, no author is beholden to another: you don't need to base anything off someone else's ideas, especially if you think their ideas are awful. The exception here is the Horus Heresy series, where it's a linked series of novels planned together. But there's nothing to say Ultramarine Book X must reference Graham's work, or whatever.

Now, I'm of the mind that we should tie stuff together, and I respect the people I work with, which is why (for example) you see tips of the cowboy hat to Si Spurrier's work in the old Night Lords novel. 

But it's not a perfect system. A lot of these novels are written by different people at the same time, who do not know each other, and who cannot (literally, it's just not realistically feasible) have contact with each other regarding every aspect of continuity.

I can give you an example off the bat: the Word Bearer trilogy that was just finished with _Dark Creed_ mentions how all Terran-born Word Bearers were killed in the Heresy. Well, that doesn't happen in _The First Heretic_. In fact, it's unlikely to happen at all in the entire Horus Heresy. It just doesn't fit in with what's being told - at least not so far.

Now, some people will look at that and say _The First Heretic_ (and any other author dealing with the Word Bearers) are wrong, because _Dark Creed_ came out several months before the others. They will say it was bad research, or an intentional disregard, or whatever else. Others will say it retcons the Brotherhood concept, and deletes it.

The truth is, _The First Heretic_ was half-finished by the time _Dark Creed_ was released, and its entire storyline was already approved by editorial, approved by the Horus Heresy team, contracted, and well underway. It's not an intentional slight, nor is it bad research. But it is a contradiction. If you go on the popularity approach, _The First Heretic_ and the Horus Heresy series will almost certainly be considered "more correct" because so many more people will read that series and see that perspective, and the HH series is overseen directly by BL's top authors and the intellectual property manager of Game Workshop.

Some people will say the Heresy series can ignore whatever it likes, and that only those novels have the authority to state what went on back then. Others will say, I'm sure, the Heresy series is purposefully out to retcon previous work.

Now, to 99.8% of readers, it won't matter at all. Even to those who have read both. But you watch - there'll always be a few that act like this is some grievous transgression against the natural order, and assign malicious ideas behind it all.

And that... That's interesting stuff, right there.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> Certain authors lay down the groundwork on factions with their novels, elaborating their beliefs, culture, appearance and history. Graham McNeill has the Ultramarines, Jim Swallow has the Blood Angels, Anthony Reynolds has the Word Bearers, Nick Kyme has the Salamanders and ADB has the Night Lords. Now if only McNeill would give the Iron Warriors a full series I would be ecstatic.
> 
> 
> > if mcneil did expand the iron warriors then i would be in on that, up until storm of iron i had no idea how the iron warriors operated and the way he wrote it allowed me an insight into a leigon that up until then had no real fiction written except fan fic wise.
> ...


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gothik said:


> besides no up until Horus Rising noone actually had bothered to let the WH40K fans know about the leigons before the heresy it was sort of these are the goodies these are the baddies.. deal with it.
> thats what i love the series, although there are a couple of books that i have read and wont read again but that is my opinion, (read Horus rising and fulgrim about 8 times all told) it gives us the fans a chance to understand what went before, what went through the primarchs minds and the descisions they made and, agree with them or not, why they acted in the way they did.


Except for the Index Astartes articles, and the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions as just 2 examples.

I'm disappointed that The First Heretic won't include or confirm a culling of Terran-born Word Bearers but at the same time I'm not going to let it ruin the book for me.

I would like to see someone else tackle a Blood Angels novel, James Swallows is all well and good but his writing style isn't a particular favourite of mine.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except for the Index Astartes articles, and the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions as just 2 examples.
> 
> I'm disappointed that The First Heretic won't include or confirm a culling of Terran-born Word Bearers but at the same time I'm not going to let it ruin the book for me.
> 
> I would like to see someone else tackle a Blood Angels novel, James Swallows is all well and good but his writing style isn't a particular favourite of mine.


hmm i really should research before i post thanks again baron and i am not a fan of james swalloe i have difficulty following him sometimes although i did like the BA books. 
i'd like to see anthony reynolds try a BA book but its good to see other legions getting a look in, i enjoyed sons of dorn immensly now if they would do a raven guard one or is there already a raven guard book out there?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I'm disappointed that The First Heretic won't include or confirm a culling of Terran-born Word Bearers but at the same time I'm not going to let it ruin the book for me.


It would probably be more of a surprise to many fans if it did include that stuff. 

Every official source I've read (and asked) says the Word Bearers never needed to purge like the other Legions did. I'm not thrilled at the prospect of having a few people consider it wrong, despite the fact I stuck to the lore and asked GW sources, rather than a novel that's not even related to the Horus Heresy.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm disappointed because I liked the concept, but it's never been said anywhere else so with The First Heretic not including it I just won't consider it canonical (the cull not The First Heretic).

Now get back to work on it slave monkey and make a novel so good that the hyprocrites on Heresy decide that you've got the sole right to do Word Bearers in the future. :read:


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It would probably be more of a surprise to many fans if it did include that stuff.
> 
> Every official source I've read (and asked) says the Word Bearers never needed to purge like the other Legions did. I'm not thrilled at the prospect of having a few people consider it wrong, despite the fact I stuck to the lore and asked GW sources, rather than a novel that's not even related to the Horus Heresy.


I strongly agree with Baron Spikey on both of his posts, and to intertwine that of what you, yourself mentioned and I hope I didn`t seem to offensive with my rebuke to the former; Though usually an author`s interpretation of a chosen Legion or Chapter is one of benefit, fleshing out the sparse background on them, there are going to be times such an abbreviation by a certain author of a Chapter of Astartes, is disliked by many. I think as a suitable example, James Swallow`s Blood Angels, especially for the first books, were, as a majority disliked. I know of people who disliked your ''own'' as it were, Night Lords, with others enjoying, if not worshipping this. 

I think it`s a tough call, as to what is ''correct'' and what is not. I have much admiration for the Gaunt`s Ghosts series, and I`m very intrigued as to what Graham, Yourself and Kyme, but to name a few, can bring to the Sabbat Worlds. I loathed Graham`s Dark Eldar, but adored his Ultramarines. I found Saul Tarvitz`s interpretation and heroic demise (In some weird anomaly) more interesting by Ben Counter in _Galaxy in Flames_, than McNeill`s in _Fulgrim_. Penning stories based upon already founded settings, characters and themes will always draw disdain and adoration by the fans of such. Take the example of when the James Bond series was to be continued by a different author to the original, how much controversy and pre-emptive hate did that cause? Or even, to a totally unconnected example, the new Doctor Who? As an author I suppose you have to accept that people will always sneer if not challenge your style, and take on varying things, but you always attempt to swing the majority in your favour.

As for _The First Heretic_, then against my earlier adamancy (Because I really don`t want to be inevitably swept into the black and white, hate/love that I was for _Soul Hunter_, even though I fundamentally found it interesting, with many enjoyable aspects) I am certainly intrigued as to what the novel will share on perhaps the fundamental causes of the Heresy. Not including the cleansing of Terran-born Word Bearers may challenge that by Reynolds, but surely the bedrock of the Horus Heresy series is to divulge into newer secrets, pacts and treachery? After all, that’s what draws me into 30k above all other 40k fiction - how I am aware of the overall plot and its ramifications on the future millenia, but not so sure on the more minute but still poignant details which led to this.

But overall, and in general, just to say that I am not phobic of change, or differing opinions and perspectives, I anticipate The First Heretic eagerly (though not as much as the Sabbat World Anthology :victory more than _Prospero Burns _infact, and I hope it not only does justice to the typical zealously of the Word Bearers (unlike the characterisation in _Battle for the Abyss_) but also that it leans away from that of Reynolds, and offers up plenty of revelations, contradictory to what we are already aware of, essentially for the intrigue, shock and so forth

Bobss.


----------

