# Why wasn't Gullimen made Warmaster?



## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

As title. Main reasons for asking are as follows;

1) Horus himself recognises that Gullimen "understood the logistics of warfare better then any man alive". Coming from the favoured son of the Emperor, this is high praise indeed.

2) When Gullimen conquered a world, he not only ensured it's loyalty, but set up effective and efficient governments and PDF's. This would have made those world's more worthwhile to the Imperium then those conquered by any other legion (except the Word Bearers, but they had their own problems).

3) Horus was quite willing to take the credit for the victories of other Legion forces under his command. Gullimen fought for the Emperor, and the common people of the Imperium.

4) Finally, Gullimen had the largest of the Space Marine Legion's and the lowest casualty rates, so would have been able to spread his forces (and by extension, his tactical acumen) across multiple battlezones, as he did during the aftermath of the Heresy.

Please, no explanations such as "Because GW said so". And before anyone even _thinks_ about it, I do not support the Ultramarines.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Horus plain says that it should've been Sanguinius, before he shoots the remembrancer... can't recall which of the three of the first Horus Heresy novels that's in, but it's definitely there.

Quite simply put...Horus was the Emperor's favorite. Every family has one... one kid is the oldest, most respected, or whatever, and the parents clearly sort of favor them. Guilliman wasn't the first that the Emperor found, and he was sort of off doing his own thing most of the time anyway. Guilliman didn't really come into the spotlight until after the Heresy anyway, and the only reason he was noteworthy afterwards was because the Ultramarines were more or less intact as a Legion since they were off tromping around the galactic southeast, as far from Terra as Horus could get them.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Guilliman was the greater tactician it's true but he didn't have the charisma, ambition, and diplomatic/manipulative talents of Horus that would be necessary to command his brothers in war. Guilliman may have gotten the best out of the troops under his command but Horus ensured that he got the best out of the generals commanding those troops.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Dont forget that unlike Horus, Guilliman had problems with some of the other primarchs and their legions. Guilliman looked down on several of his brothers, and it created bitterness and problems between him and them. Horus, on the other hand, may not have always seen eye to eye with each and every primarch but none of them hated him.

Several were angered by him becoming warmaster, but it was less of them being mad at him and more of them being mad that they were not picked. None of the primarchs had any real problems with Horus, so they were just as likely to listen to him had it been the Emperor still giving them orders.

But as The Son of Horus points out, above everything else Horus was the favoured son. He was the first found, and fought alongside the Emperor the longest. He was well liked by his brothers, and excelled at everything where many of his brothers were better in some area's and worse in others.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Leadership I think. Gulliman may have been a brillaint tactician but he wasn't as effective a battle leader as Horus was. Add to that that Horus was the first born and well there you are.


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok, all good points so far, but in reference to the following quote



darkreever said:


> Dont forget that unlike Horus, Guilliman had problems with some of the other primarchs and their legions. Guilliman looked down on several of his brothers, and it created bitterness and problems between him and them. Horus, on the other hand, may not have always seen eye to eye with each and every primarch but none of them hated him.


Corax did have some major issuse with Horus. In the Index Astartes article for the Raven Guard it states that the two almost came to blows because Horus was taking credit for victories he wouldn't have had without the Raven Guard. From memory, it was only avoided because Corax withdrew his troops from Horus' command. Maybe not hate, but it was alot more then not seeing eye to eye.


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

Guilliman wasn't made WM because all the points above and because he wasn't really on a crusade. He spent his time building his own empire of ultamar rather than travelling the galaxy commiting his troops better. He was also big headed and aragent, Dorn was made battle leader of the imperial forces during the seige and after it Guilliman swaggers in and starts ordering everyone around as if he was made the emperors successer. Its not enough to be a great tactician, you need diplomatic skills which Guilliman didn't have at all. In my oppinion if Sanguinius hadn't died he'd have taken charge and told Guilliman to take his codex and shove it.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

Every primach was disliked by another....corax wasnt the only one who hated horus...in the first book it talks about how russ threw an outraged fit when horus was declared warmaster.

And as far as guilliman, i play Ultramarines, and even i know that Guilliman should never be named warmaster, purely on the fact that he was not ambitious enough. I think if he would have been offered the honor he would have declined. He ran his legion perfect for him, but horus's legion seemed to share a similar quality with every other legion. Just like he shared something with each of his brother primarchs. Thats what made him be the only logical choice


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Gulliman was actually a very adept statesman; something he learned before the Crusade found him. The fact that there was animosity between him and a few of his brothers combined with the fact that, without fail, all of the primarchs that had a beef with Gulliman went native is proof that Gulliman most definitely should have been Warmaster; he was obviously an uncanny judge of character.

IMHO, of course


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## Huffy (Nov 25, 2008)

its simple, besides all the being good at tactics and strategy 
HORUS WAS FAVORITE


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> he was obviously an uncanny judge of character.


I don't know, he did unfairly judge many of the primarchs that turned traitor; especially Alpharius. (Of all the legions and primarchs, Alpharius was the most tactically brilliant, with his legion taking the fewest losses while being able to operate in more locations with fewer astertes. Guilliman looked down on him because Alpharius used more than just astartes and was not as straightforward..)


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

You said it, Horus was the Emps favorite son, and took credit for other peoples victories, making him look like a better candidate than he actualy was.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i receantly re-read False Gods and there a part where Horus explains when he became Warmaster, and in that text he talks about some of the primarchs that actually folowed him and Horus said that Gulliman was pissed and went off and Angron went bezerk.

To be honest Gulliman and Rogal were puffs because they both thought they were the best and favourite, Rogal Dorn went mad when Garro spoke to him and Gulliman got heavily depressed when his plan to destroy the Alpha Legion flopped and he finally relized that Alpharius was a better tactican than him.


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## shadowscout13 (Oct 8, 2008)

Horus was the best choice simply because he was a better statesman than Gullimen and he was better at more things than most primarchs. Plus the MOurnuval did help in making horus look better sometimes.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> To be honest Gulliman and Rogal were puffs because they both thought they were the best and favourite, Rogal Dorn went mad when Garro spoke to him and Gulliman got heavily depressed when his plan to destroy the Alpha Legion flopped and he finally relized that Alpharius was a better tactican than him.


Rogal Dorn was angry because Garro told him that his brother was a Traitor! Pretty understandable response.

Guilliman wasn't 'depressed' when his plan to destroy to destroy the alpha Legion failed, mainly because it never happened and you just made it up.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

The reason is simple.



Even the Emperor hates Smurfs. :biggrin:


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Rogal Dorn was angry because Garro told him that his brother was a Traitor! Pretty understandable response.
> 
> Guilliman wasn't 'depressed' when his plan to destroy to destroy the alpha Legion failed, mainly because it never happened and you just made it up.



:laugh: 
I was thinking the thinking the same thing. I've never heard of a plan from Guilliman to destroy the Word Bearers, but the Word Bearers did have a plan to destroy the Ultramarines. If anything Lorgar should be upset that his plan didn't succeed.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Grik said:


> I've never heard of a plan from Guilliman to destroy the Word Bearers,


You realize it was the Alpha Legion and Alpharius mentioned, not Lorgar and the Word Bearers right?

Post heresy, the Alpha Legion drew the Ultramarines into a battle in which Guilliman killed Alpharius, believing that the loss of their leader would cripple the legion so that they could be wiped out; but he was proven wrong and paid a price for it.

So there is some truth in what Ferrus Manus posted, but I doubt that Guilliman ever acknowledged Alpharius as being the better tactition, even after being beaten by his legion in the end.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Gulli is basically the plain office boy Primarch. He is solid with the basics but when it comes to being at the top he just doesn't fit. I think if he became Warmaster he would spend to much time trying to placate the other Primachs and he wouldn't have been able to properly handle the unique abilities and methods of war of the other legions.

Gulli was a good leader but he isn't even 2nd place on the list when it comes to the Primarchs and I don't say that with any anti-smurf bias.

Also how does he die?


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## kungfoomasta (May 8, 2008)

i forget where i read this but as i read the luna wolves had the greatst offensive abilities and the imperial fists had the greatest defensive thus it would only be logical to put the best offensive leader in charge of the crusade designed to retake the universe.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Post heresy, the Alpha Legion drew the Ultramarines into a battle in which Guilliman killed Alpharius, believing that the loss of their leader would cripple the legion so that they could be wiped out; but he was proven wrong and paid a price for it.
> 
> So there is some truth in what Ferrus Manus posted, but I doubt that Guilliman ever acknowledged Alpharius as being the better tactition, even after being beaten by his legion in the end.


Oh, I know this happened, but it had nothing to do with destroying the Alpha Legion, just with destroying/driving away the elements of the Legion present on THAT planet. As you've said there's no evidence to believe that Guilliman thought Alpharius was a better tactician


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

darkreever said:


> You realize it was the Alpha Legion and Alpharius mentioned, not Lorgar and the Word Bearers right?


Yes, my mistake. I knew what I meant, even if you didn't. :biggrin: I had Word Bearers on the brain for some reason. My brain has been overheated from installing 25 servers today.


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## Loran (Dec 20, 2007)

I'd personally agree with what Horus said about Sanguinius. He *would* have been a better choice.

Anyway, as for Guilliman, no, he wouldn't have made a good choice. Russ and Angron are out as well, due to their "barbaric" ways. The Khan likewise, preferring lightning strikes over other tactics. Magnus, well, everyone knows why he fell out of favour. Every Primarch has their flaws, but Horus was the best choice in the Emperor's eyes, even if he was a "favourite" for being the first to be found 

- Loran


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

guilliman was assasintated: cut in his throat with a poisoned knife

i think guilliman wasnt warmaster because he haas one trait all smurfs have: a HUGE ego. he couldnt have handled a good whipping in battle. he would have lost his mind after he lost a few battles. also, sanguinus would have made a good warsmith BUT i would have had alpharus. he is the best tactician that i have seen in the bunch.

/EDIT/ maybe he wouldnt have gone all traitorous if he had had a lil more responsibility.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Guilliman wasn't assassinated- he fought Fulgrim and when the incense/musk cleared there was wound across his throat- it was obviously a sharp blade that caused it but I don't know where people are getting the idea that it was a knife.


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## Loran (Dec 20, 2007)

One thing to bear in mind is the fact that a Warmaster isn't necessary the best tactician around. Other traits, like charisma, are needed a lot as well, since a shy guy can't really keep his subordinates in line.

As for Alpharius, he had this "I've gotta prove myself in front of daddy"-thing going on...

- Loran


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Guilliman wasn't assassinated- he fought Fulgrim and when the incense/musk cleared there was wound across his throat- it was obviously a sharp blade that caused it but I don't know where people are getting the idea that it was a knife.


Aye, where are some people getting an idea like that from? By the time Guilliman fought Fulgrim, Fulgrim was a serpeant daemon primarch with multiple arms and poisoned blades. All it took was a single mistake for Guilliman to be wounded by powerful chaos weapons obviously meant to defeat the mightiest of foes.

khorneflake, Guilliman and the Ultramarines do, and did, lose battles with no major damage to their 'ego'. When he and the Ultramarines were beaten back by the Alpha Legion after the death of Alpharius, Guilliman was surprised by little else. (And if there was ever a battle to lose that would be a big blow, that one was it.)


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

k i take back what i said about gulliman acknowlodgin that Alpharius as a batter tactican, that was relativly bias and i thought that thought , but im wrong.
I could see him depressed as his legion recieced massive losses and mabye he knew this but theres a possibilty that wasnt Alpharius, i would be pretty depressed if that happend to me....

anyway the only primarchs i could see being warmaster is The Khan, Sanguinas, Magnus, Horus and Lorgar.


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

The reason Horus was made Warmaster was because out of all the primearchs he was closest to the emperor and knew the emperors will better then any of his brothers. Gulliman would have been to stringent in following the emperors word Horus was also picked because amongst all his brothers he was the best diplomat and the emperor trusted that he wouldnt bring needless wars big gakking mistake but out of the primarchs Horus was the best Gulliman, Fulgrim, Sanguinas and Dorn all say so.

For the warmaster LUPERCAL LUPERCAL!!!


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

Horus was the Emperor's protege for many years before the other primarchs were found and had a lot of tuition from the Emperor directly. Horus' was brilliant at getting the best out of the other primarchs and influencing others (as someone pointed out he was getting the best out of his generals).

Where Guilliman excelled over his brothers was in organisation and planning, He may not have been the greatest general of the primarchs in other areas but he made sure that a conquered world would benefit from it and remain loyal in the long term. Guilliman could have benefitted from some lessons from Horus on how to make friends and influence people, he nearly managed to spark a civil war straight after the Horus Heresy for christ sakes!

Essentially Guilliman is a superhuman Monica from Friends.


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## Grand Master Belial (Jun 4, 2008)

Horus had the most victories to his name. Seconded by the Lion. Russ, Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim, were all not far behind. Dorn and Perturbo, I am not sure about since they were siege masters and those take an awful long time to resolve.

Guilliman was a brilliant strategist but the time he took to establish those effective governments, lines of support and recruits left him way down on the victory tally.


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

i say angron would be much better because he knew how to treat the enemy!!!


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## drivebybaptism (Dec 12, 2008)

May reason why Horus was picked? 

Emporers favoured son.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Horus plain says that it should've been Sanguinius, before he shoots the remembrancer... can't recall which of the three of the first Horus Heresy novels that's in, but it's definitely there./QUOTE]
> 
> False Gods


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Basically while Guillman may be the greatest strategist in the Galaxy he isn't the kind of guy who tolerates dissent of any kind, even friendly advice. Horus on the other hand can admit when he's wrong, and also knows how to gain friends, Guillman on the other hand is like the proverbial bull in a china shop.

All that said Rogal Dorn should have been Warmaster.

Come on you Fists!


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## Djokovic (Dec 22, 2008)

Horus was the frickin son of the Emperor. It's pretty obvious, IMO. The ultramarine primarch later became more famous, but at the time Horus was more famous.

Oops, they are all the Emperors sons. But he favored Horus because Horus was more victorious, as beforesaid.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

Djokovic said:


> Oops, they are all the Emperors sons. But he favored Horus because Horus was more victorious, as beforesaid.


maybe i have a bad memory, but i recall in one of the HH novels Horus was like "of course the smurfs have the most victories. if i had THAT many marines under my command i would have just as many wins as well". of course that isnt even remotely what was said, but the general idea was that Guilliman had more victories than any other primarch simply because he had the largest SM force out of all of them.

and yeah, i always figured Horus was chosen just cause he was daddy's favorite and better than average at tactics.


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

the emp should have stayed warmaster!
I couldnt have been warmaster I would have sent the other marines back to terra for being weak only the strong should fight!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

revenant13 said:


> maybe i have a bad memory, but i recall in one of the HH novels Horus was like "of course the smurfs have the most victories. if i had THAT many marines under my command i would have just as many wins as well". of course that isnt even remotely what was said, but the general idea was that Guilliman had more victories than any other primarch simply because he had the largest SM force out of all of them.
> 
> and yeah, i always figured Horus was chosen just cause he was daddy's favorite and better than average at tactics.



Nope, Horus had the most victories (whether they were actually performed by the Luna Wolves or he simply took the credit is open to debate) followed closely by Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

> The reason is simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Even the Emperor hates Smurfs.


i think that's the best answer!!!!

no seriously, Horus was made warmaster because he was the favourite son, he spented more time with the Emp than anyone else. He was flamboyant and had the best diplomatic skills wich are both needed for someone to take control of the crusade. Think as the warmaster not as general but as the president or PM of a country. As I was reading the Heresy novels I came to realize that every primarch represents a different trait of the Emp.Horus has the diplomacy, Sanguinius the charisma,Magnus the psychic talent,Angron the fury,Guilliman the tactical genius and so on. Guilliman had just that, you can't rule the galaxy no matter how good tactician you are...I would like to see Guilliman against the Nids, Eldar, Chaos ,Necrons and the Orcs all at once on Ultramar! then I will admit that Guilliman was better than Horus.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

Just had a crazy idea! imagine if Lemman Russ was made Warmaster!!!!! that would be fun!!!!


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Guilliman killed Alpharius, believing that the loss of their leader would cripple the legion so that they could be wiped out; but he was proven wrong and paid a price for it.


I'd just like to point out that Alpharius may not be dead and it could have been his twin Omagon who died or it may have been neither even the smurfs aren't completley sure that he's dead.


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## GundamMerc (Sep 24, 2008)

yes, the person who supposedly killed/witnessed the death of Alpharius was a sergeant (i think, someone check the rank, i just know its something low like that) which is kinda hard to believe someone that low in experience killed a Primarch, and the reliability of his testimony isnt that high either


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You're slightly mistaken, the account is from a Sergeant's log but it was Guilliman who killed the supposed Alpharius. But since the UM have never verified the Sergeant's log as being from one of their Warriors it throws the whole account into suspicion.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Something that dawned on me not long ago was that one large reason Horus got the job was because he didn't want it. The fact he said it should have been Sang' supports that particular theory. If you have a bunch of very loud children all fighting for the same position, you may simply give it to someone that has served with you with little issue or dissent from the get go. 

Horus had no reason to hate the Emperor up to that point and had been his trusted right side from decades before any other Primarch showed up. Why would anyone else get the job? 

In regard to Guill' specifically, it was obvious that he always wanted to do things his way. He constantly berrated other Chapters and thier respective Primarchs. If given the power, what would have stopped him from trying to run the show right after the Emperor left? What beyond; "he was a good tactician" even makes him the right choice?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Death Shroud said:


> Horus was the Emperor's protege for many years before the other primarchs were found and had a lot of tuition from the Emperor directly. Horus' was brilliant at getting the best out of the other primarchs and influencing others (as someone pointed out he was getting the best out of his generals).
> 
> Where Guilliman excelled over his brothers was in organisation and planning, He may not have been the greatest general of the primarchs in other areas but he made sure that a conquered world would benefit from it and remain loyal in the long term.


I have to agree with Death Shroud on this. Each of the Primarchs was a master of a particular skill. They were all good at everything. However, each excelled at something above the rest (and perhaps may have exceeded the Emperor). Magnus the Red was the master at psychic powers and such thing. Guilliman was the master of organization. Leman Russ was the master of drinking, eating and boasting (kidding SW guys). As Death Shourd pointed out, Horus was the master of manipulation. He knew how to use people to their fullest ability. He knew how to make others do what he wanted. I mean, he WAS able to corrupt several legions to his side. That is why he was chosen by the Emperor to be the Warmaster: because Horus could use the skills of the people around him to their fullest. He would make it so the brilliant organizational skills of Guilliman were where they needed to be. He would make sure that the tactical brilliance of the Alpharius would be put to use. And so on. Horus could get people to do what he wanted, without forcing them.

Or, thats my $0.03 worth (damn you weak american dollar!)


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> I have to agree with Death Shroud on this. Each of the Primarchs was a master of a particular skill. They were all good at everything. However, each excelled at something above the rest (and perhaps may have exceeded the Emperor). Magnus the Red was the master at psychic powers and such thing. Guilliman was the master of organization. Leman Russ was the master of drinking, eating and boasting (kidding SW guys). As Death Shourd pointed out, Horus was the master of manipulation. He knew how to use people to their fullest ability. He knew how to make others do what he wanted. I mean, he WAS able to corrupt several legions to his side. That is why he was chosen by the Emperor to be the Warmaster: because Horus could use the skills of the people around him to their fullest. He would make it so the brilliant organizational skills of Guilliman were where they needed to be. He would make sure that the tactical brilliance of the Alpharius would be put to use. And so on. Horus could get people to do what he wanted, without forcing them.
> 
> Or, thats my $0.03 worth (damn you weak american dollar!)


Kinda like Hitler. Although the Emperor is more like Hitler with wanting to wipe every other species out in the galaxy and whatnot. So Horus was like Stalin or Hirohito then. Wait, so does that mean GW are Nazis? :shok:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Grik said:


> Kinda like Hitler. Although the Emperor is more like Hitler with wanting to wipe every other species out in the galaxy and whatnot. So Horus was like Stalin or Hirohito then. Wait, so does that mean GW are Nazis? :shok:


*cough* Godwin's law *cough*

:grin:


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

The Emperor didnt want to kill every other species in the galaxy! Only the ones that fought back 

On topic however, Horus wasn't the first to be found, that was the Lion, Horus was 15th. Nevertheless the Emperor loved him the most for some unseen reason. As to the statement saying that all Primarchs are a master of something, Sanguinuis is the exception. He was amazing at everything, or so it is said by Horus himself and many other reliable sources. I may be biased but it is true that the Emperor did make a mistake in choosing Horus. Sanguinuis might have rebelled if he was Warmaster like Horus, but at least he would have done a better job of leading the Imperium's forces before he betrayed his father.

Just my $1.216 worth. Go strong Canadian dollar!


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Initiate said:


> On topic however, Horus wasn't the first to be found, that was the Lion, Horus was 15th.


Za? :shok:

Er... you may be mixing up genetic birth or Legion founding with numerical discovery, Horus was in fact the first to be rejoined with the Emperor. He and the Emperor were it for roughly 30 years. And he was 16th btw. :good:


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## Zamgek (Dec 11, 2008)

Horus was the warmaster plan and simply because, "Guillman Heresy" sounds no where near as catchy as the "Horus Heresy"


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

> The Emperor didnt want to kill every other species in the galaxy! Only the ones that fought back


after reading the HH books they really killed every xeno they came across. they only spared the humans who didnt fight back. the only xenos he didnt kill at first are the ones who lived the humans. i think it was the interax(sp?) im pretty sure he hated them all


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Initiate said:


> On topic however, Horus wasn't the first to be found, that was the Lion, Horus was 15th.


:no:Rubish hourus was definatley the first to be found.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Horus was *definatly* the first to be found. As for Gullimen theres plenty of reasons why he souldnt have been Warmaster, heck if he was i reckon that would have started off a civil war right then.



SANGUINE FOR WARMASTER


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the emperor picked horus as he was the one who had spent the most time with the emperor and who emp thought would understand the best what he envisaged for the human race. obviously he was the favourite son and that helped the choice a great deal but horus was also very charismatic and got on with a large portion of the primarch brotherhood so would be able to get the crusade done with the least amount of arguing and self destruction... this is all in theory anyway.
my choice for warmaster would have been sanguinius as he seems the most like his father out of any of the primarchs but maybe the emperor could sense the flaws in his geneseed and saw possible trouble ahead with picking the blood angel primarch so just chose horus. by no means chose guilleman as he has something stiff stuck up his arse and 99% certain that there would be troubles having him in charge.


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