# Greatest Threat to Chaos?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

According to the fluff, in the 40k the Chaos Gods are having a great time. 


1. They have successfully united to corrupt the Astartes, turning fully half the Legions to their side.

2. They have mortally wounded the Emperor to the point that he willl die some day soon.

3. The destruction they have wrought on the Imperium and the material universe as a whole has greatly enhanced their respective powers to the point that they are now undefeatable.

4. (MY INTERPRETATION OF THE FLUFF) They successfully derailed the Emperor's attempt to promote Atheism which would have all but destroyed Chaos because if people don't believe in Demons, their emotions cannot feed into the warp and thus into Chaos, and instead would have flowed towards the Emperor (enabling him to become a God in his own right).

5. They have now gone back to playing the great game in their own realms and have little need to seriously intervene into the material realm except for fun or in order to gain a better advantage for their situation in the warp.


Long story short...

Who do you think will be the next great challenger to Chaos' omnipotance?


I personally think it will be an epic showdown between Chaos and the Necrons at around 50 - 60 K.

I have been recently imagining that this conflict would be awesome in terms of narrative as the battles could literally take place between the various realms.

The Necrons could fight the remanants of the Chaos Astartes and human (as well as other races) followers.

But they could also assault into the warp itself and storm the great fortresses of each of the Chaos Gods.

You could have each of the Four Chaos Gods actually having to personally fight the C'tan.


What do you think?

Or is their perhaps a bigger threat to Chaos?


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

I think it will either be vs the Necrons, but before that, the Tyranids may have something to say about them.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

sethgabriel1990 said:


> I think it will either be vs the Necrons, but before that, the Tyranids may have something to say about them.


Yeah but the only problem with that is that the Tyranids cannot assault into the Warp and would actually be pretty useless against a Daemonic incursion, en masse.

So the Tyranids are more a threat to the followers of Chaos, than the actual Gods themselves. 

Whereas the Necrons don't have those problems.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

goooood point. what I always wondered is, could the tyranids stop the Necrons? couldnt they just go and suck th elife out of them? or are they too inferior (organically) for the 'nids to even have them on their radar?


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Yeah, I'm going to agree with the majoirty and say that it's the Necrons. I believe one of the Word Bearers Novels has a group of Chaos Space Marines versues Necrons in it, although I haven't read it myself.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

sethgabriel1990 said:


> goooood point. what I always wondered is, could the tyranids stop the Necrons? couldnt they just go and suck th elife out of them? or are they too inferior (organically) for the 'nids to even have them on their radar?


Not to rerail the topic, but I'll quickly answer.

In short the Tyranids avoid Necron Tomb Worlds like the Plague.

There is absoloutely no reason for them to ever challange a Necron army, as they simply expend Bio-Masse while gaining nothing in return. 

The Necrons, I would imagine, would be able to deal pretty effectively with Tyranids if they wake up, because their ships would easily outmanoveur the slow Tyranid Hive Fleets.


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## Tanrel (May 8, 2008)

However, if Tyranids kill all the followers of chaos, where are the chaos gods getting their power? Their power stems from the emotions of mortals, right? If there are no emotions, there is no power.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> 4. (MY INTERPRETATION OF THE FLUFF) They successfully derailed the Emperor's attempt to promote Atheism which would have all but destroyed Chaos because if people don't believe in Demons, their emotions cannot feed into the warp and thus into Chaos, and instead would have flowed towards the Emperor (enabling him to become a God in his own right).


A widespread adherence to atheism wouldn't have all but destroyed Chaos at all. It would have been an important step on the road to weaken Chaos' hold on humanity, but ultimately mortals can still empower Chaos if they don't believe in gods or daemons.



D-A-C said:


> Who do you think will be the next great challenger to Chaos' omnipotance?


Honestly, I don't think there will ever be an outside influence that could ever challenge Chaos now. Chaos is irreversibly woven into the fabric of the universe, the only way it could be destroyed is by its own hand.



D-A-C said:


> I have been recently imagining that this conflict would be awesome in terms of narrative as the battles could literally take place between the various realms.
> 
> But they could also assault into the warp itself and storm the great fortresses of each of the Chaos Gods.
> 
> You could have each of the Four Chaos Gods actually having to personally fight the C'tan.


Its generally presumed that the C'tan cannot enter the warp, just as the Chaos Gods cannot directly remove themselves from the realms of the warp.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Obviously you guys have never heard of that dude called Draigo.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Obviously you guys have never heard of that dude called Draigo.


Thats right Matt Ward for the EPIC win.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Obviously you guys have never heard of that dude called Draigo.


Draigo poses no threat whatsoever to Chaos.


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## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

what about Russ , 13th company , and some space marines in the warp


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Draigo poses no threat whatsoever to Chaos.


One day, one very glad day he will go and make Khorne bleed to death, infect nurgle with a disease that will, well, kill him, beat Tzeneetch at chess and so make him go and commit suicide, and lastly he will show Slaneesh his balls and that should be enough to make that pervert go and take his own life. 

I win.


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

The C'tan and the Chaos Gods really have very little ability to interact at all. The C'tan and Necrontyr are pretty-well stuck in realspace, and can't do any long term damage to Chaos. The threat that the Tyranids and Necrons represent is the extinction of most or all life in the galaxy, which would destroy the Chaos Gods. Their power comes from living things, and if there were none left, the Warp would be as calm and lifeless as reality.
If it ever looked like that was a true risk, it is likely the Chaos Gods would turn the full might of their power against these threats, and billions of Daemons would swarm across Tomb Worlds and Hive Ships alike. Even the Gods that fear nothing must have some survival instincts.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

Id say the harliquin laughing god is the biggest threat to the chaos gods


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ok, firstly, you cannot destroy any of the chaos gods, their presence in the warp isnt physical. you cannot invade the warp, theres no bastions, no lands to take or fortifications to destroy. it is a realm of shapeless, colorless, aimless emotion, yet it contains all of these. its impossible to describe because its impossible to exist in. ships only survive because of the "bubble of reality" that they bring with them. chaos is as destructive to matter as matter is to it.

if you get past that problem, any damage you do in the warp will cease to have happened when you turn around or take your mind off of what you have done. the energy of the chaos realm remoulds to your will and emotions around you, if you are powerful enough to control it. the chaos gods realms are manifestations of their will and as such are able to be weakened but never destroyed. daemon princes have created their own small "realms" but each cannot be destroyed unless the prince is, and as a daemon in the warp its impossible to be destroyed. in the physical realm its very different, but in the warp a daemon cannot be slain only weakened for a small time. 

also, any being that fears death, kills in anger or violence, lies and steals, or takes part in any form of pleasure, brings energy to the 4 powers. not much, but every being contributes to their power, in one form or another. not only that but the power of the warp extends throughout the universe, not just in the galaxy of 40k, their power is such that even if the warp were completely closed to them in the milky way, they will simply build up energy from other beings in other galaxies. they cannot be defeated or even weakened, and trying only feeds them. 

and lastly if you do manage to comfront them within their realms, its not like its a god of war situation. "oh im a human being but i think im cool so im gonna just kill this god with my swordy awesome chainblades and emerge victorious if i try really hard...", its more like you cant even bear to be near them without being completely and utterly destroyed. its not that theyre so horrible in appearance or that they will talk you into insanity. just being in their presence saturates your existence with their power, mutation, disease, and images of death and carnage. draigo, he is a single mortal with a curse and though he's powerful enough to destroy microscopic portion of a chaos realm shortly before it completely repairs itself. the truth is the chaos gods rarely ever turn their attention on the mortal realm, they only ever aligned together to bring down the emperor during the heresy, thats it... everything else that has happened has been the gods vying against each other in the great game. sorry guys, but theres no end to something that had no beginning.


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## Overbear (May 10, 2011)

Doelago said:


> One day, one very glad day he will go and make Khorne bleed to death, infect nurgle with a disease that will, well, kill him, beat Tzeneetch at chess and so make him go and commit suicide, and lastly he will show Slaneesh his balls and that should be enough to make that pervert go and take his own life.
> 
> I win.


So...Draigo is Chuck Norris? :laugh:


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

Overbear said:


> So...Draigo is Chuck Norris? :laugh:


In fact yes. He even bore Marbo from his loins...lol.

On topic, Tyranids. The extermination of life and empowerment of the hive mind would seriously hurt the power of Chaos.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Malal is the greatest threat to Chaos.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The greatest threat to chaos is the quarterly report.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

The greatest threat to Chaos, as an army in a game, is the _sheer boredom_ of it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I wonder if Marbo, Creed, Vect, Abaddon, and Mephiston were all teamed up, could they beat Draigo? 


Probaly not.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> The C'tan and the Chaos Gods really have very little ability to interact at all. The C'tan and Necrontyr are pretty-well stuck in realspace, and can't do any long term damage to Chaos. The threat that the Tyranids and Necrons represent is the extinction of most or all life in the galaxy, which would destroy the Chaos Gods. Their power comes from living things, and if there were none left, the Warp would be as calm and lifeless as reality.
> If it ever looked like that was a true risk, it is likely the Chaos Gods would turn the full might of their power against these threats, and billions of Daemons would swarm across Tomb Worlds and Hive Ships alike. Even the Gods that fear nothing must have some survival instincts.


Kind of, kind of not.

The greatest threat to Chaos is the extinction of mankind--not only are most people turned to Chaos humans, but also humans' emotions are the main thing that has the warp in flux. If humans go extinct, then who will be left to fuel the chaos gods with their souls, lusts and rages? Eldar? Yeah, the pale shadow of a dying race. Tau? Their souls are hidden from the warp. Orks? Maybe Khorne would survive, powered by them like Slaanesh with the few Eldar...

The largest threat isn't the Necrons. It isn't the Tyranids. It's both of those hitting the galaxy at the same time--two incredibly massive and deadly foes whose sole goals are the annihilation of life and who avoid combating each other wherever possible.

Between the Nids and the Crons, the Imperium will die, humankind will die--as well, of course, as all these other races that have been fighting around, too. The Nids and Crons would hardly stop themselves from consuming all Orks. Tau? A light snack for the Mother Hive Fleet. And so on, and so forth.

The galaxy will die. The Necrons will go back to sleep, and the Nids will move on to another galaxy. And then? The Warp will have been stilled, and the Chaos Gods...will have faded until they exist no more.

Perhaps it will be like the Enslaver Plague, in that pockets of life will survive. The Harlequins will hide out in the Webway, along with maybe the Dark Eldar, if their society doesn't self-combust once they're no longer able to import slaves (though hey--no more Slaanesh leeching their souls!). Perhaps a world here or there will survive across the inhabited million-plus of the galaxy will survive.

Not the Imperium, though.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Kind of, kind of not.
> 
> The greatest threat to Chaos is the extinction of mankind--not only are most people turned to Chaos humans, but also humans' emotions are the main thing that has the warp in flux. If humans go extinct, then who will be left to fuel the chaos gods with their souls, lusts and rages? Eldar? Yeah, the pale shadow of a dying race. Tau? Their souls are hidden from the warp. Orks? Maybe Khorne would survive, powered by them like Slaanesh with the few Eldar... Humanity is Chaos's greatest tool and source at the moment. If humanity was wiped out, it would cause a severe blow. However, there are countless of alien races that power chaos. The chaos gods as of right now are not short on reasoruces.


Herpy derpy derp.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The greatest threat to Chaos is Chaos itself. Always fight among each other.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

TOG: herpa derp all you want, I addressed that:


Mossy Toes said:


> Between the Nids and the Crons, the Imperium will die, humankind will die--as well, of course, as all these other races that have been fighting around, too. The Nids and Crons would hardly stop themselves from consuming all Orks. Tau? A light snack for the Mother Hive Fleet. And so on, and so forth.


Or do you suppose that the all-consuming hunger of the Tyranids would pass over the Octavius war, and similar? That the life-hating Necrons wouldn't strike at Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, and Ork empires to eliminate the mongrel progeny of their great enemy?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> TOG: herpa derp all you want, I addressed that:
> 
> Or do you suppose that the all-consuming hunger of the Tyranids would pass over the Octavius war, and similar? That the life-hating Necrons wouldn't strike at Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, and Ork empires to eliminate the mongrel progeny of their great enemy?


I said herpy derp for the ten limit word thing, don't take it personal. I was just pointing out that chaos is not solely relying on humanity as its source of power and pawns. Its there biggest and best source as of now, but its not their main life support.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Ah, my bad. Still, I maintain that the onset of Nids and Crons will still wipe out the "life support" as well as having humanity for its main course.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> I said herpy derp for the ten limit word thing, don't take it personal. I was just pointing out that chaos is not solely relying on humanity as its source of power and pawns. Its there biggest and best source as of now, but its not their main life support.


Please don't turn this into fucking 4chan though. "Herpy derp" responses look kind of rude, y'know. :wink:


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Since when can the C'Tan not enter the warp? (Also I thought they could kind of control it i.e. travel into it when needed or shut it off entirely like the last part of the Word Bearer Trilogy)

I thought they were these evil spirit like creatures that challenged the Old Ones for domination of the Galaxy?

Speaking of which, could the Old Ones have theoretically entered the warp?

Also can any race, or thing (apart from Draigo) enter the Warp and take the battle into the lairs of each of the four Chaos Gods?

Finally, Chaos doesn't depend on humans, their are loads of races in the Galaxy, so Chaos wouldn't intervene to save humanity IMO if it faced extermination.

The only thing to remember is that, there was a time before Chaos Gods existed, so theoretically they should be able to be removed from the Galaxy.

Although I think it could be a case were, those Xeno's from the Horus Heresy series were right, Horus had to defeat the Emperor, then Chaos would have torn itself apart. 

Although I personally find that a highly suspicious argument and would be suprised if things were that simple and those xenos are that one dimesionally good intentioned.

But now I'm rambling, so FOR THE DARK GOOOODDDDSSSS!!!!!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Since when can the C'Tan not enter the warp? (Also I thought they could kind of control it i.e. travel into it when needed or shut it off entirely like the last part of the Word Bearer Trilogy)


Nope. The c`tan cannot influence the warp at all or exist within it. In fact it is common belief that using the warp as a weapon may be the galaxy`s only chance at destroying them. I emphasise that despite this apparent weakness, it has yet to actually succeed. 



D-A-C said:


> I thought they were these evil spirit like creatures that challenged the Old Ones for domination of the Galaxy?


They are energy based sentient entities formed in the hearts of newborn stars long before the formation of solar systems and planets. They could technically be considered the oldest life forms in existence. According to various sources, they can exist in every dimension in the universe except the warp. They`re really nothing like spirits, if anything they`re much more powerful.



D-A-C said:


> Speaking of which, could the Old Ones have theoretically entered the warp?


It is possible. Though unlikely and nowhere is it confirmed.



D-A-C said:


> Also can any race, or thing (apart from Draigo) enter the Warp and take the battle into the lairs of each of the four Chaos Gods?


There are cases of loyal Chaos servants being granted access to their patron`s kingdoms as a reward for some deed, most notably Champions of Khorne who are brought to the juggernought pens. 



D-A-C said:


> Finally, Chaos doesn't depend on humans, their are loads of races in the Galaxy, so Chaos wouldn't intervene to save humanity IMO if it faced extermination.


_Legion_ tells us that humanity is the greates weapon _against_ Chaos, yet also the greatest tool _for_ Chaos. Regardless ofother power sources, humanity is the defining factor, the key to their dominance and power.



D-A-C said:


> The only thing to remember is that, there was a time before Chaos Gods existed, so theoretically they should be able to be removed from the Galaxy.


Though this can technically be considered true, remember that time is irrelevant in the warp. You may seal their power for a time, but so long as life exists, the Warp will exist as well. There is also the argument some consider that the Chaos gods have reached a point where they can self perpetuate their power.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cragnes417 said:


> what about Russ , 13th company , and some space marines in the warp


Not even worth mentioning.



D-A-C said:


> Speaking of which, could the Old Ones have theoretically entered the warp?


Mortals can enter the warp, so yes.



D-A-C said:


> Also can any race, or thing (apart from Draigo) enter the Warp and take the battle into the lairs of each of the four Chaos Gods?


As _laviathan_ said:


laviathan13089 said:


> you cannot destroy any of the chaos gods, their presence in the warp isnt physical. you cannot invade the warp, theres no bastions, no lands to take or fortifications to destroy. it is a realm of shapeless, colorless, aimless emotion, yet it contains all of these... chaos is as destructive to matter as matter is to it.
> 
> if you get past that problem, any damage you do in the warp will cease to have happened when you turn around or take your mind off of what you have done... theres no end to something that had no beginning.


You've got to stop thinking about the warp and Chaos in conventional terms. The warp isn't a realm you can invade or besiege. It is completely without matter, light or time. Just think about that for a minute, without matter we cannot sense it, we cannot see, touch, taste, smell, feel or hear it. Everything we (as humans) know about the universe around us and reality in general - our senses, our perceptions - gets thrown out of the window. We cannot even begin to comprehend the immaterium, our minds automatically instill visions and nightmares in an attempt to bring a measure of order to the chaos, in an attempt to understand it. So all the tales you ever hear of the warp - all the analogies and stories - are merely visions instilled by mortals in an attempt to understand the goings-on. 



D-A-C said:


> Finally, Chaos doesn't depend on humans, their are loads of races in the Galaxy, so Chaos wouldn't intervene to save humanity IMO if it faced extermination.


You are right, it doesn't. But Chaos _"would be much diminished without the rise of Mankind"_. The Chaos Gods are primarily only concerned with two things; the Great Game and the _"eternal flow of emotion across aeons"_. If the encroachment of the Tyranids or awakening of the Necrons greatly threatens this "flow of emotion", then it would seem the Chaos Gods would intervene to their benefit.



Anarkitty said:


> Their power comes from living things, and if there were none left, the Warp would be as calm and lifeless as reality.


As _Serp_ said, that isn't explicitly stated anywhere and some now actually assume that Chaos has reached such a critical mass that it is now self-sustaining.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The Necrons do not need to assault the Eye of Terror. They can simply close it.

THough if they really felt like it, for shits and giggles, the Warp is full of souls they can offer up to their masters, though the C'tan themselves do not understand the warp. Its been made clear the C'tan are not a direct command element though the Necrons do serve them.

Scattered throughout the galaxy are strange pieces of technology commonly referred to as obelisks. Many are in a state of disrepair, but those that are functioning to any degree produce huge blank zones in the warp. In essence, these obelisks block the warp in entire planetary systems, and dozens have been found across the galaxy with countless others not yet discovered or buried out of view. THeoretically, the obelisks were the first attempt by the necrons to stop the Slavers, but they could not activate them in time, or the slavers attacked the devices, or some other complication prevented what would have been a very successful plan from coming to fruition. Alternately, they may have been an investment for the future, placed at strategic points they knew they ould need after they came out of hibernation, to prevent a similar occurrence from resurfacing once they awoke.

Ultimately if the Necrons wake up and get the obelisks reactivated, particularly the Cadian obelisk, the galaxy will be cut off from the warp. The necrons dont have to fight hordes of daemons, wade through the bodies of the traitor legions, or take the fight to the home of the enemy- They jsut need to fix a few busted machines, which may not be broken at all, but simply "off". They're made of the same living metal as everything else Necron, so they may have the ability to fix _themselves_ if a reactivation is attempted.

The C'tan view the warp as their only real threat, and have taken measures to ensure that it does not remain a threat.

Rejoice, pitiful creatures, victims of the ailment called life! We are awakening, and the galaxy will fall silent of your pathetic animal noises as our perfection rises to transcend the stars once more, beautiful and deadly as the sea! All shall succumb, and all will be brought to heel, and the plague of your existence shall be extinguished! You are a candle in an ever-growing gale, struggling and flickering futilely for life against a force you cannot hope to resist.

We are not coming. We are not on our way. We are not a threat in the distance you can hope to evade or prepare for.

We are already here.

EDIT:
Whew, sorry about that last paragraph! I do that sometimes, dunno what comes over me. Probably some kind of programming function or something that causes spontaneous bursts of hatred for all life. Well, I mean, more intense hatred than usual, of course.

ANyway, the old ones MIGHT have entered the warp. I dont know if they did or not, I was already asleep by the time they would have done so but since the webway was destroyed they were having a tough time of it. If they did manage to enter the warp, I am sure that somewhere between now and the millions of years since the end of the War in Heaven some daemon ate them, or they would have at least come OUT of the warp to try to start propagating again. Maybe they did and there just werent enough left and they went extinct. I hope so.

Bastards.

Anyway, as for the other concerns, can the Chaos Gods be besieged?

Fuck. I don't think so, I mean, I dont know much about the warp, but I know nothing makes any sense there. It does have a sort of relation to space time- Thats how a ship can go in at one spot, go for a bit, and then come out somewhere else. One accurate depiction that helps basic understanding of the war is describing it like a river. The materium is the shore, static and unchanging, where the river, the Warp in this analogy, is constantly swirling and changing shape but a point inside the river still correlates to a point on the shore- Even if that particular spot keeps moving around and changing. Thus though the warp IS completely changing and unpredicatable, a swirling miasma taking place somewhere between asleep and awake, it still correlates with the materium in a space-time sense though not always reliably. Thus though the contents of the river are constantly changing the locations therein, though constantly changing, do not move from a purely mathematical point of view. This is how warp travel is achieved and ultimately is a very good example of how the warp functions and what you can expect when you enter it- IE, while everything is unexpected there are still certain constants within, most notably the realms of the four Chaos Gods.

Ultimately trying to think about the warp and rationalize it just results a huge headache because the very nature of the warp is self-contradictory, hence the name of the energy within being called chaos, with certain things staying constant when they should be changing and vice versa, and ultimately it results a huge headache if you think about it too long. I'm sure if I still had blood I would be experiencing a nosebleed right now.

I was going to take some aspirin but I just remembered I dont have a mouth any more. Fuck.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sounds like you got a defective body there IA. You should have a cryptek check into that.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well I asked and I didnt get the answer I was expecting. Apparently I'm supposed to be like that ALL the time but for some reason my higher functions were left intact when the Deciever did his assisted transfer of my consciousness to my new body. I asked if it could be fixed- You know, if they could turn me normal, so I would hate all living creatures with the fury of a thousand dying suns ALL the time like everyone else (Lately its only been the fury of about seven or eight hundred suns- I'm getting funny looks at lunch, its off-putting). I was then told they couldn't do anything like that, to get in touch with the Deciever to ask why such functions had been left intact. I tried to call him to ask what was up with that yesterday but it went straight to voicemail so not much for it, I'm afraid. I still plan on exterminating you all, don't worry. You'll all writhe in the dirt like the pathetic insects you are, before being crushed beneath my boot.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

sethgabriel1990 said:


> I think it will either be vs the Necrons, but before that, the Tyranids may have something to say about them.


From what I understand, Chaos has great influence against the Tyranid Threat. Its interesting, because in _Storm of Iron_, they mentioned how they took over a whole Tyranid Ship with injecting it with the obliterator virus. 



MetalHandkerchief said:


> The greatest threat to Chaos, as an army in a game, is the _sheer boredom_ of it.





Necrosis said:


> The greatest threat to Chaos is Chaos itself. Always fight among each other.


I concur with this statement. The Chaos gods... in my opinion have too much pride in themselves. I believe they are careless with how they distribute their powers. If there was an enemy that could pose a threat to chaos, I would say it would be themselves. 

Many of their champions as I have mentioned in a previous thread, have turned against their masters to gain more power. There are chaos forces that have simply have grown bored with what Chaos has to offer. Arguleon Vect for example. There was a Chaos Champion in _Heroes of the Space Marines_ that literally tried to get himself killed while his retinue was fighting off his own side.

The swaying of alliegences amongst the Daemons of Chaos is also interesting. Especially when some sway their alliegences against their own deities and they don't suffer the consequences for it. My primary example are the Masters of the Forge. Which apparently are able to buy their alliegences from many daemons. 

Why don't they suffer consequences? It could be that their deities have too much pride to care about a lesser deities trying to compete with them.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> From what I understand, Chaos has great influence against the Tyranid Threat. Its interesting, because in _Storm of Iron_, they mentioned how they took over a whole Tyranid Ship with injecting it with the obliterator virus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



have any of you read the chaos daemons codex? seriously? because its all explained there.:rtfm: daemons are a conciousness born from their patron, a chaos god imparts energy from its being and creates a daemon and can take the energy back at anytime they want. this ensures the daemon's loyalty, a daemon only stays in existence as long as it benefits, amuses, or otherwise is the will of its master. even daemon princes are subject to this as their "gifts" are basically energy given by their patron and can thus be removed on a whim. only chaos space marines have the ability to sway their loyalty from one god to the other, but they are fated to become furies, drifting on the winds of chaos for all time, and thus are inconsequential flies in the great game. basically no daemon ever made a move that its master didn't want it to. 

the wars of chaos amongst itself, the great game as its commonly called, is exactly that, a game. the gods have warred amongst themselves since the beginning, if there was one, and is the only thing keeping them from tearing the mortal realm to pieces. each has their own reason for playing the game but ultimately, great power cannot be shared, especially among gods. so, they fight for all eternity gaining the upper hand and losing it again. its just an eternal cycle of change that is the realm of chaos anyway. if they ever unite to accomplish anything its disasterous for mortals, hence the horus heresy.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Honestly, I don't think there will ever be an outside influence that could ever challenge Chaos now. Chaos is irreversibly woven into the fabric of the universe, the only way it could be destroyed is by its own hand.


Then Malice is the greatest threat lol



laviathan13089 said:


> ok, firstly, you cannot destroy any of the chaos gods, their presence in the warp isnt physical. you cannot invade the warp, theres no bastions, no lands to take or fortifications to destroy. it is a realm of shapeless, colorless, aimless emotion, yet it contains all of these. its impossible to describe because its impossible to exist in. ships only survive because of the "bubble of reality" that they bring with them. chaos is as destructive to matter as matter is to it.
> 
> if you get past that problem, any damage you do in the warp will cease to have happened when you turn around or take your mind off of what you have done. the energy of the chaos realm remoulds to your will and emotions around you, if you are powerful enough to control it. the chaos gods realms are manifestations of their will and as such are able to be weakened but never destroyed. daemon princes have created their own small "realms" but each cannot be destroyed unless the prince is, and as a daemon in the warp its impossible to be destroyed. in the physical realm its very different, but in the warp a daemon cannot be slain only weakened for a small time.
> 
> ...


That is a really good post. + rep for you sir!

And can NEcrons enter the warp? I have never heard about them doing it.

Oh and the Eldar pose the largest threat to Chaos, presumably Slaanesh


And back at laviathan13089, the post above you are talking about daemons and their loyalty. How would you explain the Masters of The Forge and Malice? He is able to sway daemons allegiances with their patron god.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

laviathan13089 said:


> have any of you read the chaos daemons codex? seriously? because its all explained there.:rtfm: .


I have. It also states right in the section that mentions about Soul Grinders. I don't know... maybe you should have read the whole Daemon Codex before asking if I read it. :spiteful:



> In the ash plains outside the Forge of Souls battle never stops, as many amongst the higher ranks of daemonhood vie with each other and duel for the chance of being the one to fuse with the mechanical constructs and becomes a Soul Grinder....
> 
> Such a precious armored does not come for free...
> 
> ...


 Page 44 _Chaos Daemons Codex_

And you forget...



> All this means that at any given time, a Daemon army may contain creatures created by one, several or all of the gods, and it will fight againat any and all opposition. Such is the nature of Chaos.


 Page 14 _Chaos Daemons Codex_

So quite the contrary actually. It appears the Chaos Gods do not take that power away from their followers for merely betraying them. In fact, in a way even in betrayel they are performing their tasks to their deities. 

Did you forget about Skarbrand? Now there is a Daemon who went out completely against his deity one day. What happened to him? Was his powers taken away? I think not actually. I've never read about a Daemon being absorbed back into his Gods just because he betrayed him.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I have. It also states right in the section that mentions about Soul Grinders. I don't know... maybe you should have read the whole Daemon Codex before asking if I read it. :spiteful:
> 
> Page 44 _Chaos Daemons Codex_
> 
> ...


funny because what i said was that no daemon ever made a move or continued existence that the gods didnt want to. a daemon bound to a soulgrinder's shell might be an exception to this as im not sure what arcane rights take place there and it needs a clearer depiction. 

skarbrand took up his axe and struck a blow at khorne, only opening a ***** in his armor. so, khorne punished him with a fate worse than ceasing to exist. he bellowed in rage and disolved all aspect of personality from his existence so that he only had the rage that he felt when he betrayed khorne, so effectively destroyed his mind. then, he held him aloft for all to see to make an example of him. then he cast him out of his lands in eternal exile, but he continues to serve. its a fate far worse than death or obliteration, but to serve for all eternity as a slave to his own anger and bloodlust and instigate wars and battle to bring energy to his god. khorne could have obliterated him in an instant, he just chose not to. skarbrand is much more usefull as a hate filled killing machine killing for killings sake, because thats all that khorne is about anyway.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Can necrons enter the warp?

I see no reason why a Necron cannot enter the Warp. How they would end up there is a mystery as Necron ships do not use the warp, meaning they would have to enter through the Eye of Terror, and thats going to be a fight. A C'tan cannot enter the war either, as the energies within the warp are the only thing capable of harming them. Well, that, and the energies of other C'tan. And when I say harm them, I dont mean their metal bodies- Those are simply shells used to contain the C'tan. I mean the spiritual entity that is the C'tan. Thus while the C'tan can, theoretically, enter the warp, it is a terrible, terrible idea. This is why I theorized that the Necrons could enter the Warp, as they operate on a command structure ruled by Lords, with the C'tan more as figureheads than real leaders. While the Necrons do serve them, the C'tan do not generally interfere with the operation of the Necron war machine. They may be present on the field at the same time, but that does not necessarily mean the Lord in charge is directly taking orders fromt eh C'tan.

This level of control without intervention is possible because the Necrons know what to do and are highly organized. They already know what the C'tan wants. THe C'tan doesnt give them orders, because they dont HAVE to give them orders. This allows Necrons across the galaxy to serve their C'tan without needing orders, directives, or data disseminations galaxywide. THe C'tan tend to their own affairs, fully confident the Necrons are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Thus the Necrons could, possibly, enter the warp and still obey the will of the C'tans without the presence of one.

And Leviathan, I think thats less a case of the Daemon being absorbed by Khorne's mere will, and more a case that Khorne is a bad-ass mother fucker that you do not, under any circumstances, piss off, so Khorne used his power over a being standing at arms reach and well withing psychic radius to dissolve his mind. CHaos gods, being the very essence of the warp, can be expected to be very potent and controlled psykers (And they are immune to Perils of the Warp, coincidentally). With this in mind, any god could perform such a feat against ANY daemon. Thus a Daemon that is under the service of a different god can be considered to also be under their protection, and in essence IS that god's daemon. This argues that Daemons are, in fact, individual entities once created- THough bestowed with the nature and energy of their patron, their essence and sentience cannot be revoked simply because the patron wills it to be. A daemon is, in this case, not merely an extension of its patron, but a sovereign identity altogether that can make its own choices and select its own alliances. If a daemon could suddenly unexist just because its original maker willed it to be, in the multitude of battles the Chaose Daemons wage against each other, you would see portions of armies vanishing as the opposing diety revoked the existence of any of the daemons they created that just so happened to have switched sides.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Then Malice is the greatest threat lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure they are technologically capable of entering the warp, but im not sure if they will be able to phase out as im not sure by what means they are doing it. i gues if they phase into another parallel dimension then i guess they could. they have a definite grasp of space-time manipulation. 

and by malice i think you mean malal, and im not sure about him, havent read much into him either.

there is not defined status of the faction that is the masters of the forge, they dont align with any chaos power and are, at least my good guess is, the source of all daemon engines and obliterators, namely the obliterator virus. i suppose it is possible that the Masters of the Forge are the dark mechanicus and that would explain where they went in the eye after the horus heresy. who knows what dark technological heresies they could do with no moral barriers to shelter their souls. 

reguardless, there are other beings in the warp other than the 4 powers. beings of nil to consequential strength and influence. there are also areas in the warp that are without the influence of the 4 powers as well, the formless wastes. all come together to fortify my point that anything is possible in the warp, that is its strength, unlimited potential. no mortal existence, be it c'tan or otherwise can reach the power that is the chaos gods because they reside in the warp.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Leviathan, read my edit. ALso, the Necrons use several toher, more stable, dimensions to move about it via phase out and teleportation. Whether these dimensions would be accessible while in the warp is, frankly, unknown, but its very likely that once leaving the warp, they would phase out anyway.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

I think thats less a case of the Daemon being absorbed by Khorne's mere will, and more a case that Khorne is a bad-ass mother fucker that you do not, under any circumstances, piss off, so Khorne used his power over a being standing at arms reach and well withing psychic radius to dissolve his mind. CHaos gods, being the very essence of the warp, can be expected to be very potent and controlled psykers (And they are immune to Perils of the Warp, coincidentally). With this in mind, any god could perform such a feat against ANY daemon. Thus a Daemon that is under the service of a different god can be considered to also be under their protection, and in essence IS that god's daemon. This argues that Daemons are, in fact, individual entities once created- THough bestowed with the nature and energy of their patron, their essence and sentience cannot be revoked simply because the patron wills it to be. A daemon is, in this case, not merely an extension of its patron, but a sovereign identity altogether that can make its own choices and select its own alliances. If a daemon could suddenly unexist just because its original maker willed it to be, in the multitude of battles the Chaose Daemons wage against each other, you would see portions of armies vanishing as the opposing diety revoked the existence of any of the daemons they created that just so happened to have switched sides.[/QUOTE]

well, the case of skarbrand is a one time thing and is an exception not the rule. in the chaos daemons book there is a reference to how daemons are created where it states that a daemons energy, the energy used by a chaos god to create it, always belongs to that particular god and can be revoked or taken back at any time to be disolved back into their patron god. direct reference to the fluff im afraid. 

they should really think about writing a daemonomicon for the warhammer 40k universe...


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Unfortunately you have not actually quoted the fluff in your argument where a couple others have in your opposition, lending their arguments more credence than yours. You should find that bif of fluff if you want your arguments to hold water now that fluff has actually been quoted the pokes holes in your statements.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Unfortunately you have not actually quoted the fluff in your argument where a couple others have in your opposition, lending their arguments more credence than yours. You should find that bif of fluff if you want your arguments to hold water now that fluff has actually been quoted the pokes holes in your statements.


OMG fine you want quotes here!

Chaos Daemons, The Realm of Chaos, pg.6, under Chaos Daemons.
"The Chaos Gods are not alone in warpspace. the have created servants - DAEMONS - who are closely bound to the warp. they are separate from the flow of their universe, smalll pockets of self-contained energy, and do not change with it. Daemons are beings of completely different nature to their masters, and are the most numerous creatures in the warp. a daemon is 'born' when a chaos god gives up a little of its power to create a separate being. this power binds a collection of senses, thoughts, and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the warp. the chaos power can reclaim the -continued on page 7- power and independence at any time, thus esuring their loyalty. it is only thoru the loss of this power that a daemon can be truly destroyed, its mind dissolving ito the whirls and currents of warpspace. :rtfm:

OWNED :taunt:


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Calm down there, dont go throwing the word owned out there just yet. Overconfidence begets arrogance...

I'm not a Daemons player, and know very little of the fluff, thus do not claim to be qualified to engage in a quote war. I stated my interpretations, and I;m sure there are a dozen more quotes headed your way that will say something entirely different.

And, I cant help it here but...

You mad? You seem mad.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Loyalty is a very broad term. Because of the other information distributed throughout the entire codex, I would say that loyalty stands with how loyal those daemons are with the certain beliefs and traits those Daemons carry. Not necessarly the loyalty of standing next to their patrons.

There are several circumstances where Daemon's have pissed off and betrayed the Four Powers. And still they remain existing. For example, off the bat, there was a Nurgling who consumed the Uncleaned Ones greatest plague, never able to get the correct ingredients again. Instead, he just banished him from his realm. 

The book Daemon World, Arguleon Veq, one of Chaos' greatest Champions destroyed the Daemon World to piss off his gods.

But still, they all in someway have spread chaos, thus, ensuring their loyalty in a very peculiar way.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree that the greatest threat against chaos is chaos itself. Incidences such as Skarbrand striking Khorne just go to show that Chaos will always fight against itself for one of its factions to gain even more power.

The Relictors and radical inquisitors have the right idea.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Unfortunately you have not actually quoted the fluff in your argument where a couple others have in your opposition, lending their arguments more credence than yours. You should find that bif of fluff if you want your arguments to hold water now that fluff has actually been quoted the pokes holes in your statements.


first of all, you asked for it.



Iron Angel said:


> Calm down there, dont go throwing the word owned out there just yet. Overconfidence begets arrogance...
> 
> I'm not a Daemons player, and know very little of the fluff, thus do not claim to be qualified to engage in a quote war. I stated my interpretations, and I;m sure there are a dozen more quotes headed your way that will say something entirely different.
> 
> ...


secondly, instead of politely asking for a reference to the information that im 'coming up with' you implied with your 'interpretations', that i have no idea what im talking about, when in fact, i do. 

and third of all, im not arrogant or overconfident, im right. 

furthermore, the chaos gods care not what one mortal does or what an army of mortals are up to, they are vying for supremacy over the material, and immaterial. universe. if a 'champion' destroys a planet, that is just one peace on a massive game board being moved, im sure that 'champion' will end up being dead or a spawn in the end, as most often happens anyway.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> Loyalty is a very broad term. Because of the other information distributed throughout the entire codex, I would say that loyalty stands with how loyal those daemons are with the certain beliefs and traits those Daemons carry. Not necessarly the loyalty of standing next to their patrons.
> 
> There are several circumstances where Daemon's have pissed off and betrayed the Four Powers. And still they remain existing. For example, off the bat, there was a Nurgling who consumed the Uncleaned Ones greatest plague, never able to get the correct ingredients again. Instead, he just banished him from his realm.
> 
> ...


actually nurgle laughed and continued about his merry business. kugath got all upset and banished himself to try and recreate the plague that made him. no ire of the chaos gods there.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

@ OP - me, obviously. My lack of reason and rational thought would make them self-implode _and_ spontaneously combust at the same time.

@Iron Angel and Leviathan - FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness? The extinction of humanity by every single other fucking race because EVERYBODY hates the humies! Right?


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> @ OP - me, obviously. My lack of reason and rational thought would make them self-implode _and_ spontaneously combust at the same time.
> 
> @Iron Angel and Leviathan - FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> In all seriousness? The extinction of humanity by every single other fucking race because EVERYBODY hates the humies! Right?


LOL!


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Ah, my bad. Still, I maintain that the onset of Nids and Crons will still wipe out the "life support" as well as having humanity for its main course.


Actually, you might need to re-consider the idea of the Tyranids and Necrons being all powerful. Why? Two Words: Matt Ward.

If he gets his grubby little hands on the right to write out the Necrons codex and (please god no) Tyranids Codex, well... say good bye to the good fluff.

But to be honest here, I feel like from my view it is impossible to say who is the most dangerous race in the galaxy. From every codex that I have read, each of them have painted this Mary Sue image of each faction based off their codex. Example:

Necrons Codex: "NECRONS CAN OWN EVERYONE!!!! EVEN TYRANIDS!!!"

Tyranid Codex: "TYRANIDS CAN OWN EVERYONE!!!! EVEN NECRONS!!!!"

This is an obvious repeated theme through out this game. Many will disagree I know, but in the end... the orks will win.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Well after reading a bit of the Codex Grey Knights, it would seem that Matt Ward really is the greatest Nemises that Chaos has ever faced.

So let me get this straight:

Draigo ...

1. Opened a can of whoop ass on Mortarian the Daemon Prince, for killing his Commander, so badly in fact that he carved that dead commanders name on his chest?

2. Wanders though the Warp, but everyone is so scared of him that they leave him alone. He basically beat all of Khorne's Champions, destroyed Nurgles Plague Gardens, resisted Slaanesh temptations and spurned Tzeentchs offer of a return ticket home and destroyed part of his ever changing fortress in the process.

3. He finds the time to pop into the material world every now and then so he can help his comrades defeat Chaos some more, because defeating them entirely on one plain of existence isnt enough.


What a flipping Joke.


Personally I want him to write the next Chaos Codex as I would genuinely be intrigued about how awesome he will make us.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yeh, you've missed a lot of crappy fluff while you were away


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

my interpretation is that if the Imperium falls, the chaos gods will lose a lot of power.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

laviathan13089 said:


> there is not defined status of the faction that is the masters of the forge, they dont align with any chaos power and are, at least my good guess is, the source of all daemon engines and obliterators, namely the obliterator virus. i suppose it is possible that the Masters of the Forge are the dark mechanicus and that would explain where they went in the eye after the horus heresy. who knows what dark technological heresies they could do with no moral barriers to shelter their souls.


The Forge of Souls is within the warp, not the Eye of Terror. So that pretty much rules out the Masters being members of the Dark Mechanicus. 



D-A-C said:


> Well after reading a bit of the Codex Grey Knights, it would seem that Matt Ward really is the greatest Nemises that Chaos has ever faced.
> 
> So let me get this straight:
> 
> ...


Yet regardless of how powerful or pure Draigo is on a personal level, he is still insignificant and not even a remote threat to Chaos. Whatever he strives to achieve and does achieve within the warp is inevitably undone, making all of his achievements ultimately worthless.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

I still stick by my theory as to what the "Terminus Decree" might be: That it is something that will only be used when the Imperium is in flames and all is lost. That the scroll in question evokes some kind of power that links ANYTHING with psychic ability (re: Most anything of power in this current 40k Galaxy) and then renders is null & void (i.e The Pysker "Off Switch"). That is the question to ask yourself in that if that scenario is true, who then are the ones at the end fighting? I don't know much at all about Necrons, how much (if anything) are they tied to psychic abilities?

Think about how crippled EVERYTHING in the known galaxy would be without access to psychic abilities.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yet regardless of how powerful or pure Draigo is on a personal level, he is still insignificant and not even a remote threat to Chaos. Whatever he strives to achieve and does achieve within the warp is inevitably undone, making all of his achievements ultimately worthless.


That which nerd rage has been invoked cannot be undone, sadly for Mr. Ward. 

I'm still trying to find a way to construct a generator that runs on nerd rage- I plan to power an entire city at the very least.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> That which nerd rage has been invoked cannot be undone, sadly for Mr. Ward.
> 
> I'm still trying to find a way to construct a generator that runs on nerd rage- I plan to power an entire city at the very least.


city? try the world, you think to small, thats why you wont achieve your dreams :mrgreen:


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## Chaplain Garrus (May 15, 2011)

What about the big crunch? Universal implosion? lol


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Diatribe1974 said:


> I still stick by my theory as to what the "Terminus Decree" might be: That it is something that will only be used when the Imperium is in flames and all is lost. That the scroll in question evokes some kind of power that links ANYTHING with psychic ability (re: Most anything of power in this current 40k Galaxy) and then renders is null & void (i.e The Pysker "Off Switch"). That is the question to ask yourself in that if that scenario is true, who then are the ones at the end fighting? I don't know much at all about Necrons, how much (if anything) are they tied to psychic abilities?
> 
> Think about how crippled EVERYTHING in the known galaxy would be without access to psychic abilities.


Erm... Necrons? :scratchhead: 

No, not in the least psykers. Very anti psyker as a matter of fact. And the terminus decree is not a magic button, it is instructions to be carried out when the Imperium is on the verge of absolute failure.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Erm... Necrons? :scratchhead:
> 
> No, not in the least psykers. Very anti psyker as a matter of fact. And the terminus decree is not a magic button, it is instructions to be carried out when the Imperium is on the verge of absolute failure.


What if the instructions are "push the big red button that has 'do not press' above it".


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

laviathan13089 said:


> and by malice i think you mean malal, and im not sure about him, havent read much into him either.



Well the fantasy version of him is Malal but the 40K version is malice. He represents Chaos destroying and collapsing on its self; Chaos's self-destructive nature. He has the powers to enslave other daemons or allow them/and mortal to forsake their former oaths to their Gods of Chaos. In other words, lets say you side with Nurgle but eventually hate it. You hate your decaying rotten corpse and loath yourself. Malice would be able to sway your allegiance with Nurgle. He is also said to grant his followers very bizare and strange powers. I wonder what they could be???


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Used to be stuff like dread axes or magic defeating randomness, not so much mutations as from what I saw back in the day they were some of the least mutated chaos followers....they love the whole black and white, and skull motif (Less khorne more legion of the damned).

FWI the old fluff for legion of the damned doesn't really fit anymore with the whole vanishing, and being immune to gun fire stuff. (No longer fit depiction of death starved diseased nihilists, now seem more like genuine warp specters).


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Well the fantasy version of him is Malal but the 40K version is malice.


Not precisely. There used to be a rarely mentioned "5th Greater God of Chaos" with very little exposure, yes, named Malal. He was almost exclusively utilized by one GW cartoonist. When that cartoonist split with the company...the legal rights to who exactly owned Malal all flew up into the air and nobody was quite certain of anything. Now that the issue has cooled quite a bit, there have been a few mentions of a warp entity named Malice, who is served by the renegade Sons of Malice--formerly Malal's servants--and whose outlook on the universe seems curiously familiar, in how it despises Chaos...


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok so I lost the will to live at page 5, my god you guys know your stuff. . .

My 2pence;

Orks would have SOOO much fun in the warp! ! !

Shut the rip in reality, the eye of chaos, and hope the emperor doesnt die and create another one under his arse! !

necrons flew and landed and are still on Mars as we speak, christ the necrons could do some serious damage! ! !

and ooooo those obelisks! ! !


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

The biggest threat to chaos is the fall of the imperium. Should the IOM fall chaos will lose something like 90% of what it gets its power from.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> That which nerd rage has been invoked cannot be undone, sadly for Mr. Ward.
> 
> I'm still trying to find a way to construct a generator that runs on nerd rage- I plan to power an entire city at the very least.


Four steps ahead of ya there. I have one in my back yard powered by the weaboo-naruto fan population in my back yard. First I start an argument with them and when they hit the top of their rage, I simply push them into the furnace. Free energy for the next hour. Of course this does release carbon emissions, but fuck it, I want to leave the biggest carbon foot print on this planet before I die.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

You could have it self powering. Just put a sign in your back yard that has some offensive term on it that demeans Naruto and just switch it every couple days. Put one in the front to. Then put some duct tape over the button in the morning and take it off at night (Though arguably you could leave it on at night too since, having no one to argue with, he'll likely be sitting there stewing in his rage all night)


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Not precisely. There used to be a rarely mentioned "5th Greater God of Chaos" with very little exposure, yes, named Malal. He was almost exclusively utilized by one GW cartoonist. When that cartoonist split with the company...the legal rights to who exactly owned Malal all flew up into the air and nobody was quite certain of anything. Now that the issue has cooled quite a bit, there have been a few mentions of a warp entity named Malice, who is served by the renegade Sons of Malice--formerly Malal's servants--and whose outlook on the universe seems curiously familiar, in how it despises Chaos...


yeah but wasn't all the fuss about legal issues only in fantasy? It seems that Malice is 100% owned by GW seeing as how they have the Sons of Malice.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

So is the conclusion that has been reached (jokes aside) that Chaos actually cannot be challenged by an exterior force anymore.

Even the Necrons at the height of their power would be unable to fully destroy Chaos, as although they might stop a large portion of emotion flowing into the warp, Chaos can nevertheless self perpetuate regardless, albiet in a weakened state.

So in a way after the fall of the Eldar and the Horus Heresy, Chaos has almost reached a critical mass?

Interesting argument.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Directly nothing can challenge Chaos but indirectly? 

The Necrons/Ctan have the right idea with the Great Work, cutting off the Warp's ties with the mortal realms will effectively _starve _out Chaos who feed on emotions from mortal races.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Directly nothing can challenge Chaos but indirectly?
> 
> The Necrons/Ctan have the right idea with the Great Work, cutting off the Warp's ties with the mortal realms will effectively _starve _out Chaos who feed on emotions from mortal races.


Well, the interesting thing is ... we know the Necrons cleansed the Galaxy once before.

So could Chaos almost hibernate (not literally), but find a way to sustain itself until new races emerge once the Necrons began to slumber again?

In other words, is Chaos almost to powerful to fail?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Well, the interesting thing is ... we know the Necrons cleansed the Galaxy once before.


Do you mean when the enslavers came and wiped out anything remotely psychic, hence why the Necrons went into hibernation?



D-A-C said:


> So could Chaos almost hibernate (not literally), but find a way to sustain itself until new races emerge once the Necrons began to slumber again?
> 
> In other words, is Chaos almost to powerful to fail?


Chaos can never truly _perish_. It is a dark mirror of the mortal races.

For it to truly perish, the mortal races would essentially have to be emotionless or universally be goody-two shoes who don't wage war, plot, deceive, etc.

The only reason the big four are in a dominant position over the other lesser chaos powers (the actually good intentioned ones) is because the mortal races put them there.

So if the Necrons/Ctan and their Great Work is actually achieved, the Chaos powers would probably cease to exist or simply as you say remain dormant until their source of power is open to them again.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Directly nothing can challenge Chaos but indirectly?
> 
> The Necrons/Ctan have the right idea with the Great Work, cutting off the Warp's ties with the mortal realms will effectively _starve _out Chaos who feed on emotions from mortal races.


I doubt the gods of chaos would just sit and watch the necrons seal off the warp, how would they do it anyway?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I doubt the gods of chaos would just sit and watch the necrons seal off the warp, how would they do it anyway?


It's precisely for that reason that the Necrons haven't succeeded yet assuming they had everything ready to go or ever will.

How? Their technology.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's precisely for that reason that the Necrons haven't succeeded yet assuming they had everything ready to go or ever will.
> 
> How? Their technology.


In regards to the _"Great Work"_ _Codex: Necrons_ claims that with the C'tan's _"god-like power it was only a matter of time until they succeeded..."_

But what baffles me is considering the C'tan had began enacting their _"Great Plan"_ prior to the Enslaver Plague erupting, that they then put it on hold following the Enslaver Plague. As far as we know, the Enslavers (and other warp entities) were not in a position to harm the C'tan (they fled and descended into hibernation out of choice not necessity) yet the C'tan still stalled their _"Great Work"_. Does this then suggest that they couldn't complete it whilst the warp was in a state of great turmoil? Because if it does, what chance do the C'tan have of enacting their plan now? Food for thought at least.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Perhaps their plan revolved around using mortals themselves as a means of severing off the Warp's connection to the physical realm. 

Something like spreading the pariah gene tenfold or something along those lines? This is probably why they put their project on hold during the Enslaver plague since the enslavers would hunt anything psychic which would obviously put a wrench into their plans.

Just throwing some ideas around.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In regards to the _"Great Work"_ _Codex: Necrons_ claims that with the C'tan's _"god-like power it was only a matter of time until they succeeded..."_
> 
> But what baffles me is considering the C'tan had began enacting their _"Great Plan"_ prior to the Enslaver Plague erupting, that they then put it on hold following the Enslaver Plague. As far as we know, the Enslavers (and other warp entities) were not in a position to harm the C'tan (they fled and descended into hibernation out of choice not necessity) yet the C'tan still stalled their _"Great Work"_. Does this then suggest that they couldn't complete it whilst the warp was in a state of great turmoil? Because if it does, what chance do the C'tan have of enacting their plan now? Food for thought at least.


I've always imagined that the Great Work takes a great deal of fuel. I mean, what good does the harvesting of souls (_a la_ Medusa V campaign, etc) do the Necrons if they don't have any purpose to turn them to?

So, with the absolute lack of food/fuel following the Enslaver Plague, they put pause to the Great Work and waited until there was enough raw resources available to start over/continue: namely, now.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I always got the vibe that the C'tan really don't give a damn about the warp anymore. Sure back before the night bringer ate almost all the known c'tan shutting down the warp would have been the bees knees, but at the moment they seem perfectly content gorging themselves on random imperial worlds.


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## Exile13 (Mar 14, 2011)

After reading this I want to make a Loyalist legion that goes insane and tries to destroy chaos by killing all humans.

Besides the eradication of the mortal races, I'm gonna go with Malice being the answer. Mostly because I'm a fanboy of obscure fluff.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Greatest threat to chaos? Ultimate victory. Less conflict, less chaos.


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## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

Exile13 said:


> After reading this I want to make a Loyalist legion that goes insane and tries to destroy chaos by killing all humans.
> 
> Besides the eradication of the mortal races, I'm gonna go with Malice being the answer. Mostly because I'm a fanboy of obscure fluff.


theyre renegades, called "the Purge" and they already exist in csm.


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## MightisRight (May 30, 2011)

Necrons are the only race which can truly defeat Chaos. They plan to completely seal off the warp, as they were going to do before the damned ensalvers intervened, then capture and farm the souls of all living things for the rest of eternity. The only thing getting in the way is GW. Necrons cannot win, as they would be so awesome that all other armies would be wiped out and there would be no more money to be made in minis, except for unending necron armies.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

MightisRight said:


> Necrons are the only race which can truly defeat Chaos. They plan to completely seal off the warp, as they were going to do before the damned ensalvers intervened, then capture and farm the souls of all living things for the rest of eternity. The only thing getting in the way is GW. Necrons cannot win, as they would be so awesome that all other armies would be wiped out and there would be no more money to be made in minis, except for unending necron armies.


Don't forget though that GW will never advance the story in the 42 Millenium, so they could imply that once the Necrons wake up 'all hell is gonna break lose on the galaxy'.

Personally after reading _Blood Reaver _I think that the greatest threat to Chaos, might really be Chaos itself. It just is such a warping influence, that constantly sews the seeds of violence and destruction, that if it ever really was going to rule the galaxy it would just tear itself apart.

I think the coolest aspect of such a story would be that it could be like the anti-Chaos birth of Slaanesh. In otherwords all that Chaos on Chaos violence could give birth to Malal and cleanse the entire universe of Chaos.

What do you guys think?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In regards to the _"Great Work"_ _Codex: Necrons_ claims that with the C'tan's _"god-like power it was only a matter of time until they succeeded..."_
> 
> But what baffles me is considering the C'tan had began enacting their _"Great Plan"_ prior to the Enslaver Plague erupting, that they then put it on hold following the Enslaver Plague. As far as we know, the Enslavers (and other warp entities) were not in a position to harm the C'tan (they fled and descended into hibernation out of choice not necessity) yet the C'tan still stalled their _"Great Work"_. Does this then suggest that they couldn't complete it whilst the warp was in a state of great turmoil? Because if it does, what chance do the C'tan have of enacting their plan now? Food for thought at least.


I`d always considered it simply that the c`tan needed the races to somehow survive for their plan to work. The main piece of the great work seems to be the pariah gene which atm only seems to exist in humans. When the enslaver plague broke out, it may have simply been assumed that the primitive life forms would not survive and that they would need to wait for a new life form to modify to their needs. 

However, with humanity what it is now, the great work can resume, and apparently it has. This reasoning however, could all be rendered invalid with the new codex. With the relationship between crons and c`tan seemingly about to change, perhaps the hibernation had a slightly different cause?



D-A-C said:


> Don't forget though that GW will never advance the story in the 42 Millenium, so they could imply that once the Necrons wake up 'all hell is gonna break lose on the galaxy'.
> 
> Personally after reading _Blood Reaver _I think that the greatest threat to Chaos, might really be Chaos itself. It just is such a warping influence, that constantly sews the seeds of violence and destruction, that if it ever really was going to rule the galaxy it would just tear itself apart.
> 
> ...


Malice as it is in 40k is already accepted as canon but itts very nature prevents it from reaching the same level as the big four.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Eh, GW might advance into M42 eventually. The Black Library already has a few books there, demonstrating the sky isn't suddenly falling just because a relatively arbitrary number changed. And seriously, it's been 999M41 for ages now.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Shandathe said:


> Eh, GW might advance into M42 eventually. The Black Library already has a few books there, demonstrating the sky isn't suddenly falling just because a relatively arbitrary number changed. And seriously, it's been 999M41 for ages now.


You say that, but this is what happens on Holy Terra when the calenders change over at midnight on 999M41:


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I think the greatest threat to Chaos is the fall of the Imperium. Assuming the Imperium does collapse eventually, could it be safe to say that Chaos Space Marines would fall next? Can CSM endure without that common enemy?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

More importantly, what happens when the Emperor dies? Because if he reincarnates and returns to lead the Imperium, or he becomes a Warp entity himself, Chaos is going to have a *problem*.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Chaos Gods have been feeding off emotions since the dawn of sentient life.

The Emperor, assuming he is at least in some way human, cannot reach that level of ascendancy. Immortality perhaps, but the same power as the gods? I say very unlikely. 

Before anyone says that he has held back the forces of Chaos before, remember that the gods were not interested in destroying him, they only wished for his plans to be foiled. In fact, with events playing out the way they did, Chaos has become more powerful than ever before. 

So even if the Emperor became a warp entity, he would never be a threat to Chaos. I truly believe we have long passed the stage where Chaos could even be truly endangered.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Wouldn't it be interesting and make a lot more sense if the emperor died along time ago, and the corpse on the chair is for show.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

*imagines a Custodian accidentally poking the Emperor's corpse with his spear only to watch it fall onto the ground and turn to ash* Awkward.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The Chaos Gods have been feeding off emotions since the dawn of sentient life.


More like emotions collected in the Warp over countless millenia and for no reason at all, they eventually became sentient. Inb4 the chaos powers weren't _born_.



Serpion5 said:


> The Emperor, assuming he is at least in some way human, cannot reach that level of ascendancy. Immortality perhaps, but the same power as the gods? I say very unlikely.


Perhaps if he could become a chaos power, he would not reach their league given that his source of power would only be humanity as opposed to the Chaos powers and their leeching off of any mortal creature's emotions.



Serpion5 said:


> Before anyone says that he has held back the forces of Chaos before, remember that the gods were not interested in destroying him, they only wished for his plans to be foiled. In fact, with events playing out the way they did, Chaos has become more powerful than ever before.


Pretty sure they wanted to destroy him but couldn't hence why they did the next best thing.



Serpion5 said:


> So even if the Emperor became a warp entity, he would never be a threat to Chaos. I truly believe we have long passed the stage where Chaos could even be truly endangered.


I believe they can be threatened if their copious amounts of plot armor were removed.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The Chaos Gods have been feeding off emotions since the dawn of sentient life.
> 
> *The Emperor, assuming he is at least in some way human, cannot reach that level of ascendancy. Immortality perhaps, but the same power as the gods? I say very unlikely. *
> 
> ...


Things have changed since the times in which the Emperor walked amongst his people. 10,000 years of being "fed" 1,000 pyskers a day, plus the daily psychic empowerment/devotion being also "fed" to him over that same time frame from hundreds of billions of people in the Imperium, has probably being enough of a catalyst to let him go from simply being a guy with a wallet that says "Bad [email protected]" on it, & to that of our newest God. As soon as his one last tether to this mortal world is cut: His body sitting on the Golden Throne.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Either that or like I said it turns out the emperor is in fact dead and all those souls are in fact what makes up the astonomicon.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

The 3 ways that i think chaos are screwed:
- Nids consume everything. Nothing more for the gods to feed off

- Necrons/ C'tan take over: They will take steps to seal the realm of chaos permintally, robbing the chaos powers of all their energy.

- Orks take over: They are to stupid to worship chaos and their inbuild beleif in mork and gork will over power anything other beleif

I doubt that unless the emperor has done a backflip that he would want to become a chaos god, he hates all of them. "If" he was to become immortial it would be a process similar to the assendance of a daemon prince, another thing he detests.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> Malal is the greatest threat to Chaos.


I was actually going to say this!

In all seriousness though, it depends entirely on what fluff you read. Early fluff would points towards Malal. If you read the Inquisition War series, then both the Hydra Project and the Illuminati are the greatest threat. More recently, the Tyranids desire to assimilate all life in the galaxy would be a considerable blow to the Chaos powerbase. The necron's goal seems to be the eventual creation of warp-independent sub-realities where they could keep an enslaved population to feed off while the galaxy goes to hell. Now, the biggest threat to Chaos is probably GW allowing some muppet to write the next batch of fluff...

*edit* Re: Pariah Gene. Although this is pure conjecture, would the Harlequin Mime be an example of a non-human Pariah?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nope. The Mime is not a psychic null in any way. It is simply a title as far as I am aware.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Nope. The Mime is not a psychic null in any way. It is simply a title as far as I am aware.


That's a shame, I think GW have missed a trick there! Think about it, a psychically null Eldar would be considered almost as much of an abomination as the Solitaire. Being unwilling to kill one of their own, no matter how abhorred, the only paths would be exile or the Harlequins, who could find use for their abilities. I think its got some potential


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## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

There are three other threats to chaos that ive heard:

1) that prophecy of the emperors reencarnation and eventual victory over the dark gods

2) that eldar prophecy that see the rebirth of their gods once they have enough Eldar souls stored in their craftworlds computors

3) everybody goes Zen or gets lobotomized and stops feeling most emotion, which might eventually starve the chaos gods for lack of a better word.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Obviously the tau, who will rule the galaxy eventually


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## daemonprinceofchaos (Aug 4, 2008)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> Yeah, I'm going to agree with the majoirty and say that it's the Necrons. I believe one of the Word Bearers Novels has a group of Chaos Space Marines versues Necrons in it, although I haven't read it myself.


there was. they were able to hold out for over a year but with imperial forces coming in there direction they destroyed the artifact that the necrons were after and they disappeared. it was called Dark Creed, but the crons were briefly seen in the book Dark apostle a earlier novel of the same genre


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## Overbeing (Oct 9, 2011)

Mmmm...

BT's for the followers, the emperors champ cleans 'em up pretty nicely!

As for the gods, I think chaos will have to ever present in the galaxy! :bye:


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Doelago said:


> Obviously you guys have never heard of that dude called Draigo.


draigo must have bribed the chaos gods to not harm him or matt ward was on drugs when he wrote the fluff


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

I think Chaos is the greatest threat to Chaos. Those guys and gals just can't get along.


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