# Do you powerfist your tac squads?



## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Powerfists for tac squads? I thought that using them would be a no-brainer, but I'm not so sure anymore. On the one hand, it gives the squad a lot more versatility what is what tacs are all about. On the other hand, it's an expensive upgrade to a unit that I don't really want to be in CC that often, and could just give the sarge melta bombs if I was worried about being tied down by dreads and kans. Any opinions?


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, oh dear god yes.

Try getting stuck in melee with a dreadnought or a Wraithlord once, and just watching your men DO NOTHING, until they all die.

That and knocking out tanks is a bonus


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

As a rule, which i have adhered to since the start of 4th edition. if you have the option of getting a power fist or anything double strength into a squad then do it. might not be worthwhile for guard but there you go, i dont play guard. Its not just tanks or dreads you have to worry about. its the wounding where the fist comes into its own. if you hit with a fist your going to wound aswell (well, 1in6) power weapons you dont. sure u get 4 attacks. 2 hit 1 wound by my math. fist either 1 or 2 hits so that 1 or 2 wounds. so you get a better chnance to hurt meq. that combined with being able to hurt vehicles, mc and dreads reliably. by taking meltabombs your not really doing anything other than hurting tanks that you can hit with the nade. dreads you need a 6 to place it on the walker so its not going to do that much to stop your guys dying horribly in the claws of a big dead rust bucket... always always always take a fist.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Always hitting back armour with S8 is nice.
Able to get 3 attacks instead of 1 against Dreads is nice.
Able to instant-kill any T4 creature (SM Characters, Nid Warriors etc) is nice.
Able to ignore FnP and Armour Saves is nice.

That's an awful lot of nice for 25pts in my mind. Totally worth it. Especially when the alternative is to pay 10pts and only get the last ability.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Taggerung said:


> Yes, oh dear god yes.
> 
> Try getting stuck in melee with a dreadnought or a Wraithlord once, and just watching your men DO NOTHING, until they all die.
> 
> That and knocking out tanks is a bonus


Well actually models can use grenades and bombs against dreadnoughts. They no longer have to wait for them to be immobilized. 

That being siad, I advocate using a powerfist in every squad, tac or otherwise. Yes, watching a Tac squad die slowly to a Wraithlord really sux. However the real reason I love them so much is that 5th promotes more assaulting multiple units. It is fun to watch an assault squad (or Tac squad) with Powerfist assault a unit of enemy troops and an enemy tank at the same time.

I once had a 10 man assault squad (with Powerfist) assault a space wolf blood claw squad and a lascannon predator. The powerfist tore open the predator while the assault squad tore up the blood claws.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

pathwinder14 said:


> I once had a 10 man assault squad (with Powerfist) assault a space wolf blood claw squad and a lascannon predator. The powerfist tore open the predator while the assault squad tore up the blood claws.


that, my friend, is the name of the game! a perfect reason i cant believe i didnt think of in my 1st post considering i do it all the time... hell its a great use of thunderwolf cavalry! 5 wolfves, 3 dead rhino's, 1 turn. lol.
and no, next turn they were fine(ly spread on the floor)


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

any tactician will tell you that powerfists add more tactical value to a tactical unit such as tactical squads (sorry i counlt resist)


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

depends, power weapons look better, and there not as embarrassing when power fisting someones rear


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

I have always used power fists there always worth the points, just think if you destroy a dread or something like that then your fist has made the points back, power weapons are good vsing guard or eldar where there low Str doesn't matter


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

MJayC50 said:


> that, my friend, is the name of the game! a perfect reason i cant believe i didnt think of in my 1st post considering i do it all the time... hell its a great use of thunderwolf cavalry! 5 wolfves, 3 dead rhino's, 1 turn. lol.
> and no, next turn they were fine(ly spread on the floor)


You're welcome. Playing Blood Angels I require even more tactical flexibility from my units of troops than most armies. I look for multiple assault opportunities from my squads to get at armor. 

I love the look on opponent's faces when I say, "I'm going to multiple assault your unit and tank".


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 1, 2009)

Fist over power weapon any day. Sure you strike at Initiative 1, but if your in a combat where you'd get wiped out before you can use it, chances are you'd be screwed regardless of what you take. All the advantages have already been stated, so i'll just agree with them.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

just don't put a plasma pistol onto the champion with the fist... nothing worse than losing a 70 point model (assuming seargant or aspiring champion...) due to overheat...


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

clever handle said:


> just don't put a plasma pistol onto the champion with the fist... nothing worse than losing a 70 point model (assuming seargant or aspiring champion...) due to overheat...


Actually I give them one. I rarely lose them to overheat.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Seeing as I usually field 2 of each type of squad, 2 tac squads 2 assault squads, I have one with fist one with power weapon. the fist gives the squad that ability to take out tanks but I like having a unit that makes full use of it's initiative as well. 

Basically if only taking one I take fist, if taking two I mix it up... 

For guard as nearly every major army in my area(eldar and MEQs) have higher initiave I throw them in like anyones business. they're gonna hit last anyway make them count


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

If I may make a counter argument, all marines now have frag and Krak grenades KRAK GRENADES.

Not at good as a powerfist but when you have 10 of them going at marine 'I' it makes the powerfist a little less potent, personally powerfists are a big no no.

If your chucking your marines at tanks and dreads or getting caught by them then "your doing it wrong"(thats what the free missle launcher is for)

Also those points are a few away from a rhino, why the hell would you want a 2-hit wonder over a rhino!?

This is a counter arguement, not the be all and end all.

Also have you SEEN assaulters this edition? you'll be dead before your marines can even take a hit normally.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

anarchy, i dont agree with you at all. sending a squad out without a fist is like sending them out without a rhino - a cardinal sin in this edition! have the fist aswell 4 tanks. you may be able to destroy it first with nades. thats great. or immob it so the fist hits automatically! after all thats the hard part with nades. hitting. dreadies you hit on a 6 anyway. then krak nades need another 6 to glance. its just not going to happen. tactical means just that. they should be able to do a little bit of everything. if i see a unit without a fist then im going to destroy it with something that you cant hurt easily. dont even get me started on MC or the like... you would suck sooo hard without a fist that by not spending the 25 points for a fist would be like wasting that whole squad coz u were too tight to equip them properly. you may even get a job with the british MOD!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The _only_ time a power fist isn't worth taking is if the squad in question is going to be less than 8 men strong. In such a case, it's better to go with a power weapon and an extremely cheap special weapon (when possible) like a flamer.

One of my favorite units is a 5 strong Tactical Squad armed with a power weapon and flamer mounted in a Rhino or Razorback (using either the Blood Angel or Dark Angel rules). The unit is designed to hunt infantry and excels in this role.

When it comes to larger squads like full strength Tactical Squads, units of Battle Sisters and the like then the power fist or equivalent is invaluable. A power fist does a lot for a unit that carries one. Some of these things are as follows:

- Gives the unit some realistic close combat ability. A basic Tactical Marine might seem like a formidable threat to a Guardsman or Termagant in close combat, but against anything tougher the Space Marines will be hard pressed to cause many wounds. A power fist helps even out the odds against tougher foes considerably, causing .89 Strength 8 armor ignoring wounds per turn against foes with a WS of 4-8 and a Toughness up to 7. If the unit gets to charge or the enemy has a WS of 3 or less, the fist will perform even better.

- Ensures that no matter _what_ the Tactical Squad ends up in close combat with, they have a good chance of hurting, if not outright killing whatever they're fighting. It's not uncommon for power fist wielding Sergeants to punch out Dreadnoughts, or deal a wound one round after another in close combat with a Monstrous Creature. Even a deadly Hive Tyrant has to watch out for the hidden power fist. Fists also excel at instant killing models with multiple wounds. Independent Characters are very common targets for fist wielding unit champions.

- Makes it so that dealing with a vehicle in close combat isn't really a big deal. Yes, the unit's krak grenades can be extremely handy in dealing with things like Rhinos or Hammerheads, but aren't quite as effective against targets like walkers and some Leman Russ variants which have a higher rear AV. Where a krak grenade is rendered almost completely ineffective against AV11, a power fist really isn't terribly bothered by this and will happily smash the vehicle anyway.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I dont entirely agree with anyone who stats "You should always always do this one thing or else". Certainly I see the tactical advantrage of fists in Tact squads and i'm by no means saying dont do it, but its a waste to always do it and frankly a bit lazy. Your army should be ssupporting itself as a flowing unit, you shouldnt need to put fists on every tact squad and the points saved here should give you an advantage else where. There are always expections of course.

If you plan Tact Squad Q to sit back far away and just shoot stuff giving it a fist is a waste. If your concerned about an incoming dread or MC give them cover from a better unit. 

Assault Marines... cant see why you'd never take one.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

MJayC50 said:


> anarchy, i dont agree with you at all. sending a squad out without a fist is like sending them out without a rhino -
> 
> then krak nades need another 6 to glance. its just not going to happen. tactical means just that. they should be able to do a little bit of everything.
> 
> if i see a unit without a fist then im going to destroy it with something that you cant hurt easily. dont even get me started on MC or the like... you would suck sooo hard without a fist that by not spending the 25 points for a fist would be like wasting that whole squad coz u were too tight to equip them properly. you may even get a job with the british MOD!


First, it was just a counter arguement, don't worry I wasn't "telling how it is".

Also I wouldn't sent or let my tact squads near a dread, thats what anti armour units are for.

Tact units are for taking objectives, support is for clearing the area so they can do that, the big guns have long range for a reason. Thats what marines are all about, synergy.

Also you hit tanks auto unless they move, then your just hitting on 4+ auto, the most you want to do is immobalise, its the troops inside you want to worry about. 

Also they way I see it, tact units already can do everying,your unbalenceing them by adding a fist, something which a las cannon shooting out the back of a rhino or a predator can do a lot more effectivly. 

And Katie, I know you play demons and chaos, normal marines can't take hvy or special until they reach 10 men.

Also lastly, i have won plenty of matchs and I have never used fists, I always take the view, the right weapon for the right job not the random weapon for the unknown job.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

jeez i wish i could play a game where all my units get to fight the ideal corresponding unit! if no fists work well for you then go nutz. just it doesnt work for me. hell maybe your just a better player with a better army/tactics and im taking the easy way out with a fist. I just think that tactical squads without a fist bring nothing to the table. they go down too easy. depending on how many points you play u may have like 3 scoring ten man units? maybe some scouts... now against anything else, without a fist your going to struggle. im thinking in terms of a tourney here where flexibility is the key. sure if i knew i was playing guard i might drop a fist for a weapon but otherwise... you infact make my argument better than i did

'Tact units are for taking objectives, support is for clearing the area so they can do that, the big guns have long range for a reason. Thats what marines are all about, synergy.'

what happens when you get attacked whilst your sat on the objective? in combat where your lascannons cant do anything? this game is all about combat. combat is very harsh and very quick. tac squad getting charged with 9 normal attacks then 3 power weapon attacks... not going to do much. nor is the fist to be honest. depends who is charging. just with the fist it gives you a bit better chance of hurting the big guys, like n0b bikes or mc with high T. its all about the instant kill that the fist can bring. any IC not EW can mostly be instantly killed by your sgt. sgt cant be picked out, IC's can. And for ten extra points compared from weapon to fist, its the kind of thing i class as a no brainer.

just read that back. im not trying to be an arse. i was being genuine. comes across sarcastic but just pretend you dont get sarcasm for a minute


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

anarchyfever said:


> Also I wouldn't sent or let my tact squads near a dread, thats what anti armour units are for.


If your opponent is allowing you to dictate how the battle will flow, then he's doing something wrong. In all kinds of threads I see people simply stating that they "won't let" something happen. What happens if, despite your planning, it _does_ happen, though?



> Also you hit tanks auto unless they move, then your just hitting on 4+ auto, the most you want to do is immobalise, its the troops inside you want to worry about.


If your enemy sees that you're in range to assault his vehicles, then he's silly for not moving just a hair over 6" to make you hit on 6's.



> Also they way I see it, tact units already can do everying,your unbalenceing them by adding a fist, something which a las cannon shooting out the back of a rhino or a predator can do a lot more effectivly.


How often do you get rear armor shots with lascannons? Do your opponents turn their tanks around to face away from you or am I missing something here?



> And Katie, I know you play demons and chaos, normal marines can't take hvy or special until they reach 10 men.


Actually, I play Blood Angels too. Blood Angels and Dark Angels are able to take special weapons at 5 strong and heavy weapons at 10 strong. Only Codex Marines of all the different flavors of Marines can't take a special weapon at 5 men.

Katie D


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

MJayC50 said:


> jeez i wish i could play a game where all my units get to fight the ideal corresponding unit! if no fists work well for you then go nutz. just it doesnt work for me. hell maybe your just a better player with a better army/tactics and im taking the easy way out with a fist. I just think that tactical squads without a fist bring nothing to the table. they go down too easy. depending on how many points you play u may have like 3 scoring ten man units? maybe some scouts... now against anything else, without a fist your going to struggle. im thinking in terms of a tourney here where flexibility is the key. sure if i knew i was playing guard i might drop a fist for a weapon but otherwise... you infact make my argument better than i did
> 
> 'Tact units are for taking objectives, support is for clearing the area so they can do that, the big guns have long range for a reason. Thats what marines are all about, synergy.'
> 
> ...


Meh fair enough, If your playing tornys then you have way more experience of power gamers, and so I can see the need for a fist or two.

I'm also a very reckless person when I play marines, I quite happily split my 10 men into 2 and set the hvy team back and send the other 4+special into the action. 

I have to say it helps a lot when your oppenent is aiming at the guys running full pelt towards an objective and not the guys covering them.

Also I can never find space for fists either.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> If your opponent is allowing you to dictate how the battle will flow, then he's doing something wrong. In all kinds of threads I see people simply stating that they "won't let" something happen. What happens if, despite your planning, it _does_ happen, though?
> 
> Melta or krak nades, seriously the best thing to do with dreads is to shoot them, I've slaughted death squads?(blood angels) with dreads, they are just awesome at combat, once your in, your in for good.
> 
> ...


7 letters too short(do not read what came before this under pain of death)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

anarchyfever said:


> Melta or krak nades, seriously the best thing to do with dreads is to shoot them, I've slaughted death squads?(blood angels) with dreads, they are just awesome at combat, once your in, your in for good.


Trying to tag a Dreadnought with melta bombs and krak grenades really isn't a very effective way of dealing with it. The krak grenades can only really tickle the hulking machine and the melta bomb never seems to hit.



> Yeah, they see the dread slowly moving towards their tank from the other side and forget las cannons can shoot out of rhinos. But seriously I tend to make them focus on other things, not the lascannon in the rhino sitting quietly.


Okay, so your opponents are prone to being psyched out. Try this sort of tactic in a competitive setting sometime... those goes don't make mistakes.


> But seriously I have never needed 2 str 8 hits, look at my lists, battle reports, its all pretty lolsye.


Fair enough. I'll check out said battle reports 'cause I'm curious. 

Thanks!

Katie D


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

I usually add powerfist to my non-cult CSMs, Krak grenades just aren't enough against other vehicles, walker or otherwise, and the PF makes them much more reliable as a general-purpose squad, which troops should be. I can see why some would take Meltabombs instead, but the 20 points does add alot. PF's in CC, even though they strike last most of the time, probably will still get their attacks in due to wound allocation rules, and can add that extra few wounds necessary to tip the balance. In addition, independent characters who otherwise would sweep through your entire unit can be one-shotted. Very very good I say.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

whats a tac squad? I only have grey hunters and blood claws XD


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> whats a tac squad? I only have grey hunters and blood claws XD


It's your regular troops, just that other races don't have them in easy to manage portions for the noobies.

Cmon, is it that hard to calculate how much 4 marines and a champ costs? XD


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> It's your regular troops, just that other races don't have them in easy to manage portions for the noobies.
> 
> Cmon, is it that hard to calculate how much 4 marines and a champ costs?


I was saying it as a joke Jackal hence the XD. (trust me, its not that hard to figure out what a Tac squad is).


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> I was saying it as a joke Jackal hence the XD. (trust me, its not that hard to figure out what a Tac squad is).


So was I. :laugh:


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

hmm - so for those buying a power weapon for close combat and melta bombs for tanks your spending 20 points.... why not spend 25 and get the fist which is better at doing both? infantry and armour (bar raiders obviously....)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MJayC50 said:


> hmm - so for those buying a power weapon for close combat and melta bombs for tanks your spending 20 points.... why not spend 25 and get the fist which is better at doing both? infantry and armour (bar raiders obviously....)


Yet another reason that power fists are made of awesome and win.


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## wargamereric (Jan 20, 2010)

If whats been said isn't enough for you, my vote is power fist all the way


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

MJayC50 said:


> hmm - so for those buying a power weapon for close combat and melta bombs for tanks your spending 20 points.... why not spend 25 and get the fist which is better at doing both? infantry and armour (bar raiders obviously....)


If I've got Corbulo hanging around mine can pen a land raider.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

i'v never made a SM or CSM list were the Sergeant/Champion DOESNT have a fist, it's like trying to breathe without air, you need that air, so do you need that fist :grin:


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Nope, my tac squads fill the anti-infantry role and the power weapon plus pistol is a better combo against most infantry than power fists, besides the price difference lets me up to a lascannon for the anti-tank group.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

liforrevenge said:


> If I've got Corbulo hanging around mine can pen a land raider.


yea we can all get a pen on a raider if we pay the points for it... corbulo, grimnar and tank hunter, libby with might - all sorts really - but thats not the point! you must must must take a fist. please for all that is good and holy - the emperor would take a fist and he knows his stuff... (his sword doubled his strength ok!)


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

OK becuase there are so many bias answers i'll make one. Lets look at fists vs races

Orks - Fists = You run into a swarm, dead, you attack a ork dread, your caught in combat, orks swarm you...Your dead!

Eldar - Fists = If you manage to hit a wraithlord, good for you, mind you, you do have to get past the total tonload of AP 3 he's going to chuck at you first, the banshees, firedragons, you know, stuff which will rip through a marine squad.

Dark Eldar Vs Fists - Why would you knowingly get into CC with these guys, your way too slow.

Chaos M - Say hello to sound marines AP3, and khorne berserkers, you'll be dead before your normal guys get a hit.

Chaos D - Same with dark eldar, your shredded to bits.

Tyranids Vs Fists - You attack a carnifex, oh sry no one takes those anymore, err a broadlord? no, no you'll be dead before you knew what happened, err a Hive Tyrant, well I guess, if you want to be swarmed by about 60 guants afterwards (if you can get to him) or warriors which will rip you to pieces. 

You know nids have a weapon a bit better than a fist, they're called crushing claws 

Tau vs Fist - err what are you trying to hit, the 3 suits which are making circles around you firing plasma, the hammerhead moving 12" and firing a template, or his firewarriors who can't fight anyway?

Marines Vs Fist - Well first those dreadnoughts should be easy, oh wait they all have plasma cannons and can keep you at range, never mind, well what about tanks, well Katie made it clear that any sane player would just move away, then your caught in the open. err another marine.

Sorry but this doesn't even add all the units which can rip marines to bits, just the ones you'll be targeting with at "I" 1, 

The final result...Fists are NOT worth their pts, thats 4th edition thinking, I don't remember Marines coming first in national tornement either.

Heres another point of view, don't be like everyone else, do something different and make it work.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

anarchyfever said:


> Orks - Fists = You run into a swarm, dead, you attack a ork dread, your caught in combat, orks swarm you...Your dead!


Why would anyone in their right mind go rushing at a huge Mob of Orks? That's just a plain old bad move.



> Eldar - Fists = If you manage to hit a wraithlord, good for you, mind you, you do have to get past the total tonload of AP 3 he's going to chuck at you first, the banshees, firedragons, you know, stuff which will rip through a marine squad.


And a power weapon helps in this situation how?



> Dark Eldar Vs Fists - Why would you knowingly get into CC with these guys, your way too slow.


You don't purposely allow them to get into combat with you, but very often it ends up happening anyway because they're faster than hell.



> Chaos M - Say hello to sound marines AP3, and khorne berserkers, you'll be dead before your normal guys get a hit.


Okay, first, Noise Marines don't have AP3 weapons other than the Doom Siren, those are Thousand Sons. Also, nobody really takes Thousand Sons because Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers are better. Khorne Berserkers are going to beat you in combat no matter what weapon you take, so you bring a fist so you can get a kill or two in before you're torn apart.



> Chaos D - Same with dark eldar, your shredded to bits.


I'm a veteran Chaos Daemon player and I can tell you that there's nothing less frightening to us than a normal power weapon since our saves are almost all Invulnerable anyway. Power fists are fantastic for getting rid of Plague Bearers and putting wounds on Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons.



> Tyranids Vs Fists - You attack a carnifex, oh sry no one takes those anymore, err a broadlord? no, no you'll be dead before you knew what happened, err a Hive Tyrant, well I guess, if you want to be swarmed by about 60 guants afterwards (if you can get to him) or warriors which will rip you to pieces.


Power fists are fine against Warriors - instant death is good. Each Warrior you punch out with a fist nets you 3 wounds for combat resolution. Also, it's far too early to say that Carnifexes are never taken anymore... the Nids have been out for less than a month. Lastly, when it comes to Trygons and such, tagging them with a fist helps a lot.



> You know nids have a weapon a bit better than a fist, they're called crushing claws


I fail to see how this makes Marine power fists worse.



> Tau vs Fist - err what are you trying to hit, the 3 suits which are making circles around you firing plasma, the hammerhead moving 12" and firing a template, or his firewarriors who can't fight anyway?


Usually battlesuits that need instant killing, yes.



> Marines Vs Fist - Well first those dreadnoughts should be easy, oh wait they all have plasma cannons and can keep you at range, never mind, well what about tanks, well Katie made it clear that any sane player would just move away, then your caught in the open. err another marine.


Dreadnoughts don't _all_ have plasma cannons... most of the quoted post has been full of your own personal bias. Maybe people in your area use tons of plasma cannons, but that doesn't mean that they do everywhere else.


> The final result...Fists are NOT worth their pts, thats 4th edition thinking, I don't remember Marines coming first in national tornement either.


I'm pretty sure Marines won one of the British GT heats. Which one I'm not sure... I want to say Heat 3.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

In 90% of cases PF>PW. It's just common sense.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

If you are talking about a purely competative standpoint you have to realise one thing:

TACTICAL MARINES ARE RUBBISH. 

There, i've said it. Throwing more points than necessary at a not very good unit isn't going to make them vastly better so you had better have a plan if you want take the fist. This follows on from Anarchy fever's point- under exactly what situation do you see a powerfist being an optimal weapon? Much has been said about dreadnoughts in cc. OH NOES!1!1! But is the fist a good counter?

2 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 ~ 0.1 expected kills per combat round. 

No, it's a terrible counter, so don't end up in cc with a dreadnought. Not a terribly difficult strategy to follow since they are so darned slow. Probably the best opponent for a powerfist is a slow TMC, but really, do you want your fragile scoring unit in the middle of a tyranid army? Hint- the answer is HELL NO.

Thats the individual unit, now consider the army as a whole. Anything a fist is decent against, hammernators are much better against. An optimal solution is therefore to keep your tacs out of harms way and send in the terminators.

Just for reference, the marine army that did well in the GT heat was roughly:

2 x hammernators in redeemers
2 x scout squads
Some other stuff.
*No tactical squads.*

In conclusion, if playing competatively, realise that tactical marines generally do not want to be in combat. With a rhino and other interdiction units it takes a lot of effort to get them into combat, so a fist/power weapon is surplus to requirements. If you aren't playing competatively, do what you want.


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## anarchyfever (May 24, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Why would anyone in their right mind go rushing at a huge Mob of Orks? That's just a plain old bad move.
> 
> 
> Lots of people play orks, so you have to ask yourself if your going to need that fist, or if the pts could be better somewhere else.
> ...


Heres my reply, because you took your time to reply.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Personally I think Powerfists are a must, not least because the more ruthless opponent will exploit the weakness any chainsword/powerweapon squad presents.

Interestingly though a lot of Space Marine armies seen in White Dwarf go for either Chainswords or Powerweapons when equipping the sergeants of their squads.

Fluff-wise, and in the Black Library books its the case that Powerfists are reserved only for the truly important, with even Space Marine captains having to make do with Powerweapons. Sadly, I've been corrupted and would only give a chainsword or powerweapon to either a regular unit, or a model I never intended to game with.


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## Devinstater (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't usually give my tac marines anything. Especially at 1500 points. Tac squads aren't that good anyway, my other FoC slots do the killing. My tactical squads just need to survive. 

They do that by using combat tactics and trying to flee and break clean from cc, then I bail them out with other units.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I think thats the point that some have been tyrign to make. its not that fists arnt good, or that they dont offer tactical benefeits to your squad, but that it ISNT always the best choice for every strat.

Some people just want their tacts alive as scoring units and use other units for killilng. And sometimes having a "weak" tact squad that your enemy will apparently always expolit is just a great way to bait them into a trap. 

Be flexable, nothing is perfect for everything.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Personally I'm biased as I'm used to playing 1000pt games, where Tactical squads becoming distinctly more important and requiring a certain flexibility. However tonight I took part in a big 9000pt-a side Apocalypse game, and being uninterested in going for a very competitive list I went for units I rarely used.

Consequently I ended up with a fair number of powerweapons which proved useful in my job protecting the rear flank from a Deathwing Strike. However fighting against Terminators and only wounding on fours rather than twos meant I spent pretty much the entire game defending the flank, and was isolated from the main action. Had I used Powerfists this would not have been the case.


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## Black-Cardinal (Jan 30, 2010)

OddJob said:


> If you are talking about a purely competative standpoint you have to realise one thing:
> 
> TACTICAL MARINES ARE RUBBISH.


I agree entirely here, Tactical marines have been useless through my very limited experience. Either they are sitting on an objective and get slaughtered by the more effective troops of other armies who want the objective regardless of what I've given them) or they are not really bothered and make very few kills through out the game, I think if you want to use tactical squads go Rhino Rush, pull your rhinos up use them as mobile cover disembark and rapid fire, and to add to that use them in pairs, This is generaly an ok tactic that can be devastating if used against the right enemy and if your rhino's make it.
In fact taking a landraider would ensure your rhino's make it, sure it's incredibly expensive, but non-competitively it's a great weapons magnet with it's strong armor and weapons, but if you play competitively chances are you trick would be seen right through. 
I take two tactical squads as troops with no upgrades since most of my oponents make scouts less useful than tac- squads. Otherwise I always use at least one 10 man assault squad with power fist and two plasma pistols and sometimes a cheap IC with power weapon and combi-flamer. Advancing them behind cover that blocks line of site then moving within six inches of a unit unloading bullets into them and then assaulting, using the IC's higher initiative and WS to get more power weapon hit's faster and then the rest of the squad and then the powerfist to take care of other ICs or light vehicles. This unit has been my absolute favorite in every game and has only been effecitvely countered once. 
Thats my (rather long) two cents.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Tactical squads aren't great, but they can surprise you, especially if you've given them a powerfist. Against weaker troops its simply a question of time, against stronger troops more combat-orientated units such as Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets are the best choice.


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## Black-Cardinal (Jan 30, 2010)

I forgot to mention in my above assault squad that the IC is a chaplain for his litanies of hate rule. But everything mentioned in this thread has been opinion and suggestions based on everyones experience and research, don't feel too pressured to take any side so seriously as a be all end all to what you asked.


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