# Word of warning about Princes



## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Not like me saying this will change anything at all about how people play their CSM, but by doing the _very_ unfluffy thing of having 2 Daemon Princes in a 1750 point list is going to make them do what they did to Carnifex. They will become way more expensive. I'm sure adding wings will be like the Daemon Codex and be like twice as expensive.

Also for all of you Dual Lash Prince users, you are probably worst to blame since you are using the (albeit effective) cheapest move in the game. Nowhere else in this game can you move the enemies troops, cause pinning and for _so cheaply_!

I will not be surprised if they become 0-1 in the next book and cost like twice as much. Hopefully to compensate, the Sorcerers and Lords will become somewhat useful in comparison with their present selves. Their is so much potential for greatness in the fluff, but the last edition really blew it since the next book that came out went in completely the other direction. But I am really straying from the point now. I mostly wanted to say that Daemon Princes are overused and we will pay for it next edition (in like 2-3 years if we're lucky).


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

i see your point but Gw fuck everything up on a regular basis, so when it comes to crunch time i dont think it will matter.


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Haha it's funny because it's true! I imagine it could be a possibility, but I would not count on it.


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## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

how about Sour Kroot or DIAFKroot (die in a fire)


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Rahl said:


> i see your point but Gw fuck everything up on a regular basis, so when it comes to crunch time i dont think it will matter.


Nature of the Beast. Nuff said.


I really dont care, DPs are like Avatars of Khain, Bad Ass but rare and Gamebreaking if more than one is used. However with the shittyness of the recent Dex you cant blam anyone but that asshole, whats his name, you CSM players know who Im talking about :wink:.

The Lords are overpriced. The Sorcerors are viable but still not nearly as good as the DP. If they make him more expensive then so what, the DP should be for 1500-2000 Pt games anyway. 0-1, well if the Eldar have 0-1 Avatar its for a reason. On a side note if they split the Chaos Cults again, then Lash should be back with Slannesh Theme only armies like in C:CSM 3.5.

So all in all whats the problem here?


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

I thought that leaving out the 0-1 thing was a typo, anyway...


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## Leviticus (Mar 27, 2009)

Lash lists are very cheap. But it's the only thing chaos has atm.

Personally, I hate lash, which is why I have psychic defense like crazy, it's easy to deal with once you have a way to defend it. But it still very annoying trying to knock out 9 obliterators...


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

People will bitch about ork battlewagons with deff rolla's, Chaos dual lash princes, not being able to weapons destroy a monolith's particle whip, seer councils on jetbikes, doom of malanti(SP?) etc. etc. Every codex, (for the most part) has something that is powerful enough to be considered abused. The thing is, it is the only unit in the C:CSM that is powerful enough to be abused or considered broken. My theory is, if you can't beat a dual lash winged prince army, then you need to adjust your tactics. Everything can be brought down, it's just how you go about doing it. Complaining about it will not "fix" it.


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree with Unforgiven302, every race that i can think of has there broken/overpowered/cheese unit/tactic. Yes Dual LP's is retardedly good, and abused, so you have three choices... Bitch about, do something about it, or quit the game. I think i stand for most people when i say, do not do the first choice.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Snake40000 said:


> I agree with Unforgiven302, every race that i can think of has there broken/overpowered/cheese unit/tactic. Yes Dual LP's is retardedly good, and abused, so you have three choices... Bitch about, do something about it, or quit the game. I think i stand for most people when i say, do not do the first choice.


After spending hundreds of dollars on this game I'm not just about to do the third one, so how could I possibly do number 2? There is nothing to do about it which I guess was sort of my point. I was kind of complaining about the simplicity of the codex but I really just don't like dual lash giving Chaos a bad name is all.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

They're free to do that as long as they fix the damn codex.


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## Roujheh (Jan 13, 2010)

I agree with unforgiven 100%.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Mud213 said:


> After spending hundreds of dollars on this game I'm not just about to do the third one, so how could I possibly do number 2? There is nothing to do about it which I guess was sort of my point. I was kind of complaining about the simplicity of the codex but I really just don't like dual lash giving Chaos a bad name is all.


Well then. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Figure out the weaknesses of lash whips, fail less to lash.

Lash doesn't effect vehicles.

You should be putting all of your d00dz in vehicles anyways

A mechanized, and therefore better, list is also disproportionally resistant to dual lash lists.

It's not an autowin by any means, but the fact that you have an EASY out (unless you're playing Necrons. But that's a problem with the cronz) means that your complaining will just result in people paying less attention to you, even if you also have something legit to say.

Seriously: put your dudes in metal boxes. Plague Marines can fire both their special weapons out of that access point, right? Drive-by rapidfiring plasma, or something. I mean the DP WILL wreck the Rhino in the assault phase, but if nothing else is firing then you'd taken away lash, tied the prince up for a turn and given yourself 8 shots of plasma into him. Will this plan survive contact with the enemy? Oh hell no. Is it a nice general gameplan? Hellz yeah.


At the same time, you do havea valid point: It is really lame that that's the best Chaos can do is two Slaaneshi princes with a horde of plague marines. But... that's GW's fault, for making a list that doesn't quite cut it unless made in an unfluffy manner.


And it's not even _that _good. Honestly, while 9 Oblits is freaking scary, that's what the list has going for it against mech lists. If you can kill the oblits the the Plagues will go too. It's solid.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

To everyone who likes to bitch about the "cheapness" of a dual lash list... I honestly don't care what's thought of me when I use it, my retort? Why the fuck gimp myself on purpose and use a lord?!

Though I'll occasionally use a Nurgle DP with warptime and wings... So by no means is Lash the only list we can put up and wreck the shit out of your poorly thought out Marine lists.

For reference I roll out with...

Daemon Prince x2 (Nurgle or Slaanesh)
10 man Zerkers x2
10 man P-marines x1
Oblits x2
Greater Daemon x1

Occasionally tossing in a defiler because I typically roll over everyone even with that point wreck... Though if he doesn't die before he can put his close combat weapons to use, a defiler is well worth it.

My best bet is usually a _Blitzkrieg_ best one is a Three turn victory at 2k points.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> Well then. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
> Figure out the weaknesses of lash whips, fail less to lash.
> 
> Lash doesn't effect vehicles.
> ...


Just so we are clear, I never once said that I fell victim to a Lash list. In fact I have only played them a couple times and it wasn't annoying. I typically put all of my infantry units in rhinos so it didn't really affect me. You completely misread the point of this thread. I was not saying they were overpowered, or hard to counter, I was just saying that if people go around a lot with two Lash DP, the next codex will make them nerfed to hell or may more expensive.

You brought up Necron as being particularly vulnerable to this tactic, but to be honest, Necron typically aren't very competitive anyway. Horde lists are much more likely to be vulnerable (Ork, Tyranid, some IG lists etc.) but that's not what I was talking about. It seems like most threads don't stay very focused and this is an excellent example.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Skull Harvester said:


> Sour Kroot


...............LOL!


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow you just keep complaining going on and on..... Who wants to make this thread about how ironic IG armies are?

Everyone agree.... Heryaa! 

Oh wait you said that they *go* off topic not *too* go off topic; my bad.

You do make a good point, i recently made a topic how modeling chosen and it got turned into strategies for chosen....


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Mud213 said:


> Just so we are clear, I never once said that I fell victim to a Lash list. In fact I have only played them a couple times and it wasn't annoying. I typically put all of my infantry units in rhinos so it didn't really affect me. You completely misread the point of this thread. I was not saying they were overpowered, or hard to counter, I was just saying that if people go around a lot with two Lash DP, the next codex will make them nerfed to hell or may more expensive.


You misread my post as well. It's easy to do. Most people notice the random rant, and assume that's what I'm saying. That's just window dressing. It was a lesser point, really. I was saying that it's actualy not neccesarily that powerfull in a very wordy manny. If it doesn't effect people, they won't nerf it. Foul on both of us, I suppose. But... look bellow!

My *REAL *point, however.
If they do nerf it, they'll have to remake it, right? Well then, by ALL means. Pease do!

They have my blessing to nerf the SHIT out of lash, or DPs, or oblits or some combination there-of if they fix the codex doing so. Maybe if we are more blattant about it they'll do it sooner.


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ya DL, Sorcerer, DP all need to be balanced. What they should do is restrict Dp to 2500+ armies only (One per army). And make the other 2 HQ more usable.


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## rpthomps (Aug 26, 2009)

Mud213 said:


> Also for all of you Dual Lash Prince users, you are probably worst to blame since you are using the (albeit effective) cheapest move in the game. Nowhere else in this game can you move the enemies troops, cause pinning and for _so cheaply_!


I don't know about that. The new blood angels have a lash like device on their dread, and it is fairly cheap. GW may keep it in the CSM.

Ryan

http://ryanstactictalk.com
http://ryanstactictalk.blogspot.com/

twitter: rpthomps


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorcerer can have lash.....


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

So, basically, the point of this thread is to say, "Don't use the best options in the Codex, because then they'll nerf them in the new Codex."

This is what we call a Bad Idea (note the capital letters). No matter what anyone does, when the new Codex comes along, things are going to be changed around. Units will get new rules, others will lose abilities or stats or whatever. The point is, live in the here and now use the Codex that you have and don't worry about what's going to change in the new one until it's on the horizon. _Then_ you can start to panic.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> Well then. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
> Figure out the weaknesses of lash whips, fail less to lash.
> 
> Lash doesn't effect vehicles.
> ...


Actually, GW has Epic Failed in a lot of ways, one of which is to ensure that everyone's army looks pretty much exactly the same... Back in 3rd, I was perfectly happy running lists that were very light on vehicles. My Dark Eldar army had one (1) Raider, and was very successful.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Lets face it, anything thats powerful in one edition of the codex will be unplayable in the next edition. Its what makes GW money.

Regardless of how much we use it now, they are going to get screwed over when the 5th ed codex is released.

Same thing that happened with Tyranids. They make Carnifexes stupidly cheap so everyone buys 6 of them, then they make them completely unplayable so that people buy Trygons as well.

Games workshop isnt in it for the game. They are a business, they are in it for the money. Not changing the power levels of different units would be a bad move for GW, as people wouldnt change their list, which means they wont buy more models, which means they wont make any money.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> You misread my post as well. It's easy to do. Most people notice the random rant, and assume that's what I'm saying. That's just window dressing. It was a lesser point, really. I was saying that it's actualy not neccesarily that powerfull in a very wordy manny. If it doesn't effect people, they won't nerf it. Foul on both of us, I suppose. But... look bellow!
> 
> My *REAL *point, however.
> If they do nerf it, they'll have to remake it, right? Well then, by ALL means. Pease do!
> ...


I dont want then to Nerf Oblits at all. They get more Nerf with every new CSM Dex, WTF? Make them a 0-1 choice and give them back their awsome Stats from 3.5 CSM.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

i dont see what would be wrong with them nerfing princes...specially if they buff lords and sorcs


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> So, basically, the point of this thread is to say, "Don't use the best options in the Codex, because then they'll nerf them in the new Codex."
> 
> This is what we call a Bad Idea (note the capital letters). No matter what anyone does, when the new Codex comes along, things are going to be changed around. Units will get new rules, others will lose abilities or stats or whatever. The point is, live in the here and now use the Codex that you have and don't worry about what's going to change in the new one until it's on the horizon. _Then_ you can start to panic.


This is the only post in this thread thats worth reading. The rest is just QQ and random rambling about your troubles. Not one of you pointed out how fragile Lash Princes are (yes I just said that), how they are blown away into oblivion in turn 1-2 by any player with a handful of brains, how more and more armies have psychic protection that wards off Lash, how most armies are mechanised and how Necrons don't give a fuck about Lash because they'll just WBB out of everything. If none of this has happened to you then go back to your LGS and play some more before forming an opinion on something you don't know enough about.

About CSM players using Princes only, I would like to point out that said CSM players are just Marine players that like spikes and heavy metal. Real CSM players don't complain about how Princes are a painfully obvious HQ choice, about PMs, Zerkers and Oblits, because they have the guts to use all the other things in our shitty Codex and win with them. And its not that they invented the wheel or anything, but its because they learned to play. I suggest you do likewise. I'm doing the same and the results are pretty good so far.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Necrons will WBB out of you pulling their dudes out of Orb range, tearing them apart in hth with said lashettes and tying up the Lord so that he can't make it over there? Really?

I mean, lash... makes the phalanx all un-phalanx-ey.


You can spout all the "I'm a better player so I win with worse units", but that just means that you're playing with people who are worse than you. I'd take more pride in playing the best players I could find with the best lists I could make, personally.


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

@Unforgivin302:
I totally agree with ur first post. Obviously people are not doing something right if they cannot bring down the critters you have listed.


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

After reexamining the issue, it seems that my real problem is that any list that you post in the Chaos Army List thread will be given the advice that you should either add more Plague Marines or Zerkers, change your Lord to a Prince, drop everything else and put in Oblits or Vindicators.

I'm sure nobody would disagree that they would want other HQ choices to be more viable. The point I was trying to make was, *Don't complain if they nerf the Lash Prince*. Seeing the new codices come out and seeing how everything appears to be ramping up in power, it's no surprise that my natural response is wanting a new codex too.



Khorothis said:


> About CSM players using Princes only, I would like to point out that said CSM players are just Marine players that like spikes and heavy metal. Real CSM players don't complain about how Princes are a painfully obvious HQ choice, about PMs, Zerkers and Oblits, because they have the guts to use all the other things in our shitty Codex and win with them. And its not that they invented the wheel or anything, but its because they learned to play. I suggest you do likewise. I'm doing the same and the results are pretty good so far.


I play with other choices too. I use Raptors, Noise marines, vanilla marines, Defilers and/or Lords for example. Sometimes PM, Zerkers and Oblits or a Tzeentch DP go in too, but I really make the models that I enjoy. Much like you I don't struggle with winning even when I don't have one of these cookie cutter lists. Like everybody else I have trouble with TH, SH Termis, Seer councils on bikes and other frustration units.

Ignoring all of the other blathering I've said:
What I'm most frustrated about is that it seems like most peoples' reaction to dealing with cheese is to use cheese themselves.

Nobody likes having their units moved by their opponent and I always sort of feel bad doing it.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Mud213 said:


> Ignoring all of the other blathering I've said:
> What I'm most frustrated about is that it seems like most peoples' reaction to dealing with cheese is to use cheese themselves.


Putting aside the part that *there is no cheese* for a moment, what is your proposed solution to deal with the powerful armies and combos, then? Take clearly inferior units and bank on the fact that you're the far superior player so you can overcome your self-imposed handicap? I don't mean to sound confrontational here, I'm legitimately curious and wish to understand your thinking.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Actually, there is cheese...
Most of it having to do with all armies being pretty much the same. And there are no longer limits on what HQ can be used in what points battle, or even in what army.
No more armies having strengths/ weaknesses depending on what Craftworld/ Chapter/ Legion you wish to play, now everything can use/ do everything, and heaven forbid anyone wants to design a list that doesn't look exactly like someone else's.
That's cheese.
Daemon princes really should be a 0-1 choice, and personally I used a Lord for a long time and he was more effective than most Princes at what he did.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Actually, there is cheese...
> Most of it having to do with all armies being pretty much the same. And there are no longer limits on what HQ can be used in what points battle, or even in what army.
> No more armies having strengths/ weaknesses depending on what Craftworld/ Chapter/ Legion you wish to play, now everything can use/ do everything, and heaven forbid anyone wants to design a list that doesn't look exactly like someone else's.
> That's cheese.
> Daemon princes really should be a 0-1 choice, and personally I used a Lord for a long time and he was more effective than most Princes at what he did.


 It's called changing with the times... Sure I don't really like the "newer" CSM codex, but am I gimping myself with a themed army for the sake of "fairness?" No, no I'm not and I don't plan on it. 

Us "powergamers" will just continue to go "STOMP! STOMP! STOMP!" all over your armies if it pleases you. :victory:


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Oh, it does. :laugh:

I agree there's cheese in the world; there are two simple counter-measures. 
1) Start your own competitive list
2) Learn to enjoy playing without winning

I like the second one. It lets you play with the models you think are cool without worrying about stats, and you can spend more time painting and less time tactical-ing.


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

NoiseMarine said:


> It's called changing with the times... Sure I don't really like the "newer" CSM codex, but am I gimping myself with a themed army for the sake of "fairness?" No, no I'm not and I don't plan on it.
> 
> Us "powergamers" will just continue to go "STOMP! STOMP! STOMP!" all over your armies if it pleases you. :victory:


Don't quote the orks, puny chaos player.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

buckythefly said:


> Don't quote the orks, puny chaos player.


I'm a Daemon Prince, and I'm bigger than you. :wink:


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> It's called changing with the times... Sure I don't really like the "newer" CSM codex, but am I gimping myself with a themed army for the sake of "fairness?" No, no I'm not and I don't plan on it.
> 
> Us "powergamers" will just continue to go "STOMP! STOMP! STOMP!" all over your armies if it pleases you. :victory:




And that attitude will continue not getting you points for sportsmanship.
Winning is one thing, being an unmitigated prick is another.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I hate the way people use the word "cheese".

It seems that some people believe that choosing units that will let your army win with less difficulty, somehow makes you less of a good player, tactically.

If anything, it's a contradiction that makes people retarded for even suggesting that "other" units should be used, other than the clearly advantageous ones, just so that:

1: the player can claim to be contrary, and not conforming to the ability of being able to field popular units that grant some advantage that others find irritable.

2: the player can claim to have a "non-cheese" army, that looks like it's supposed to, or something.

Cheese doesn't exist. If there is an advantageous conbination of units that ends up spamming the table, it doesn't mean that the player is any less of a player just because they took an obvious choice of units.

If anything, a player choosing NOT to take the powerful or advantageous units, JUST to be contrary to a common (and even irritating) tactic, is an idiot.

It reminds me of the indie music genre. When nobody has heard of the band, that person likes them. As soon as they are popular, that person only thinks that their early stuff was good.

Same going on here - As soon as a 'dex contains a few units that are noticed as being an advantage, and become popular usage, then all of a sudden people that always take those aren't very good players in the eyes of "cheese haters"; apparently you can only be considered a good player if you make a really contrary and original list with as many self deprications in it as possible.

How ridiculous.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Necrons will WBB out of you pulling their dudes out of Orb range, tearing them apart in hth with said lashettes and tying up the Lord so that he can't make it over there? Really?
> 
> I mean, lash... makes the phalanx all un-phalanx-ey.
> 
> You can spout all the "I'm a better player so I win with worse units", but that just means that you're playing with people who are worse than you. I'd take more pride in playing the best players I could find with the best lists I could make, personally.


Usually my DPs get blown away by Destroyer fire or cut in half by Destroyer Lords with Warscythes. Or and Wraiths, lets not forget those guys. And I don't know about you but the Necron players I play with do their job pretty well and I'm struggling to keep up with them. Which makes your second statement false to the point where its plain ridiculous and baseless. I loose a lot of games but every time it happens I learn from it and certainly not whine about it (which is my problem with lots of threads here, this one included). I can recall only 3-4 occasions where I played with someone worse than I am and just so you know, I never felt good about it, even if it meant that my Tzeentch Prince (it happened on a small point Tournament) survived a 30 man Boy squad (thanks to details such as helpful terrain, blessing of the Die Gods and timely rescue), which was not supposed to happen. Most of the time I play against players at or above my skill level, which is great because they can point out my mistakes and I can keep an eye out not to repeat them. The best is when you loose not because you made a mistake but because your dice wanted you dead.



Mud213 said:


> After reexamining the issue, it seems that my real problem is that any list that you post in the Chaos Army List thread will be given the advice that you should either add more Plague Marines or Zerkers, change your Lord to a Prince, drop everything else and put in Oblits or Vindicators.
> Yup. Nobody tells you to get Kharn, do they?
> 
> I'm sure nobody would disagree that they would want other HQ choices to be more viable. The point I was trying to make was, *Don't complain if they nerf the Lash Prince*. Seeing the new codices come out and seeing how everything appears to be ramping up in power, it's no surprise that my natural response is wanting a new codex too.
> ...





NoiseMarine said:


> I'm a Daemon Prince, and I'm bigger than you. :wink:


Not if Old Zogwort turns you into a squig. :laugh:

EDIT:
@The Real Sanguinius

You miss the point completely. The problem is with the attitude of "I must win, no matter the cost", not with people who use competitive lists only. The latter is a different type of player, while the former is a kind of personality defect most people have trouble tolerating. I for one try to perfect my lists because I intend to win, since the game, for me at least, is about the thrill of matching wits and skill and doing your best to come out on top. From this perspective, I'm a competitive player too. On the other hand I also think that both sides should have a good time playing the game, because at its core its just that: a game. When I shake hands with my opponent at the end of the game I prefer to see a smile on his/her face, regardless of the outcome. I think this is what people miss about some of the competitive players, who want to make the other player run home crying.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> Usually my DPs get blown away by Destroyer fire or cut in half by Destroyer Lords with Warscythes. Or and Wraiths, lets not forget those guys. And I don't know about you but the Necron players I play with do their job pretty well and I'm struggling to keep up with them. Which makes your second statement false to the point where its plain ridiculous and baseless. I loose a lot of games but every time it happens I learn from it and certainly not whine about it (which is my problem with lots of threads here, this one included). I can recall only 3-4 occasions where I played with someone worse than I am and just so you know, I never felt good about it, even if it meant that my Tzeentch Prince (it happened on a small point Tournament) survived a 30 man Boy squad (thanks to details such as helpful terrain, blessing of the Die Gods and timely rescue), which was not supposed to happen. Most of the time I play against players at or above my skill level, which is great because they can point out my mistakes and I can keep an eye out not to repeat them. The best is when you loose not because you made a mistake but because your dice wanted you dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well said.
It's like some people just want to drive new and older players away, because they simply MUST win, no matter what. Thay're not playing "for fun" these days. Fun, for them, is simply bashing someone and bragging about it later.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

*shrugs*

Maybe it's the people I play with, but in this or any other game I have no trouble finding other people who play to win. We goof off sometimes, and it's not like I won't play against others, but this game is just like starcraft, magic or fighting games like smash: playing your hardest every time, always is the most satisfying way to play for me. Knowing the other guy too makes it more fun.


As far as DPs go:
Those are wings DP's with a Rhino screen, right? And the full amount of cover advised? I mean, sure, they die, but it's a strictly nonmech army. That's a huge shot in the arm. *shrugs*

edit:
also!


Mud213 said:


> Nobody likes having their units moved by their opponent and I always sort of feel *bad *doing it.


This has got to be one of the most impressive ways to mispell the word "dead sexy". I mean, it's two words, not three letters.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> *shrugs*
> 
> Maybe it's the people I play with, but in this or any other game I have no trouble finding other people who play to win. We goof off sometimes, and it's not like I won't play against others, but this game is just like starcraft, magic or fighting games like smash: playing your hardest every time, always is the most satisfying way to play for me. Knowing the other guy too makes it more fun.
> 
> ...


totally clueless, ain't ya? What you are seeing is rare on the 'net, it is someone with a concience.


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## Inquisitor Varrius (Jul 3, 2008)

Cheese is always controversial. I find Cheddar to hold the most universal appeal. (Rim shot)

It is a little annoying that everyone recommends lash lists so strongly (you should've seen the GW staffer's face when I mentioned I wanted a Nurgle Lord) but if you ask for advice, there is usually a trend. It's unfortunate the CSM list is pretty limited, but there's always next time. Now, if you play DE or crons, that's a right to complain about codices. :wink:

@ Real Sanguinius (not just you, the serious gamers as a group): I'm takin' it upon myself to defend the casual gamer. I agree the people who whine give us a bad name. I hate them just as much, if not more, than you. There is however, a certain joy in taking units you know will die horribly, simply because they're cool. Possessed spring to mind. Neat-looking? Hell yes. Effective? No.

Anyway, I agree the people who complain because of self-imposed handicaps are aggravating, but not everyone with a fluffy list is a whiny idiot. Don't group all the casual gamers under blanket-insults, dac? [/rant]


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I love possessed 30 possessed in a daemonic rhino each and when they roll rending or power weapons my goodness they kick ass I've shredded orks with these boys! (with Mark of Khorne)


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

After the long journey to get to the fifth page of this thread I have a couple of points to make:

If someone wants to bring the same powergamer list to the table every time that's great. I have the cashflow and tactical patience to eventually discover the flaw in his/her list and then beat him/her, then what are they going to do? Most likely this individual created their list from others so they don't know how to counter whatever I brought to the table and leveled it with.

DP's aren't that great. It's not like he can hide in a unit, gun him down, put him in a pointless CC battle, whatever. It's not like he's an MC amongst other MCs.

I get the point the original poster was trying to make, he simply fears the MC Lash strategy getting toned down due to overusage. I don't think the guy should be crucified for his concerns. Hell infact in the last edition wasn't Lash used to make the unit move _towards_ the DP? Anyway he can be concerned with such, now rather it happens or not is a different story, but don't belittle the guy because he's concerned. Whatever GW does with the next edition of C:CSM (hopefully it'll get it's individuality back) is come what may, just enjoy the codex you have now.

As for the powergamer list, I enjoy winning as much as the next guy but you've got to get bored with the same tactics over and over again. My old eldar army and my old IG army were very diverse and eventhough some of their unit set ups lost (some horribly) it was nice to try out different variations. Variety is the spice of life. Now understandable some don't have the money or the time for such, but I'm just saying I would find it less than satisfying playing the same way every game even if it was successful.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

A concience? That doesn't really enter into things. It's not like we're always out for blood, but playing to win is where the fun is. Having the other person do their damndest to cut your army off at the knees and mount your farseer's head on a spike.

If you aren't trying to win then there are other games to play. It would certainly be quite disapointing to me if a veteran player with an imaculately painted army who quite clearly knew what he was about pulled out his army list and plopped down some fat stinking pile of Swooping Hawks, Mandrakes, XV15s, Possesed and, say, Havoks I can tell you I'd certainly enjoy the game a whole lot less.

But hey, we had this same discussion in magic. You're just playing a different game than we are. It's cool. We share fluff and army lists and hobby stores, we have to learn to coexist. We'll learn that the game is more about narrative for you, and you'll learn that the extra rules you added to the game aren't universally accepted. It's not like YT enjoying competition and people trying to crush me (and quite honestly, them succeding is more fun than them not trying to) means I can appreciate your side of things.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Blue Liger said:


> I love possessed 30 possessed in a daemonic rhino each and when they roll rending or power weapons my goodness they kick ass I've shredded orks with these boys! (with Mark of Khorne)


Why would you need rending or power weapons to kill Orks with 90-odd s5 attacks?


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Cheese doesn't exist. If there is an advantageous conbination of units that ends up spamming the table, it doesn't mean that the player is any less of a player just because they took an obvious choice of units.
> 
> If anything, a player choosing NOT to take the powerful or advantageous units, JUST to be contrary to a common (and even irritating) tactic, is an idiot.


You bring up a good point here about the word "cheese." It does not have a very concise definition and I used the term loosely. I like this game since it's so multifaceted. Modeling, painting, the books, the game, listmaking, tournaments, there is so much here. Being into the hobby as much as I am, the cheese I am referring to isn't just making powerlist, it's making powerlists that don't really follow the fluff at all; making lists that don't "make sense." This might make me a bigger nerd than you guys, but this is how I stand.

It might seem odd, but I'd much rather lose to a well painted Salamanders army with Sternguard, Veteran Dreadnoughts in drop pods, and TH SS termis than a bunch of half primed thrown together SM with "custom sternguard", baseless Dreadnaughts with Vulkan Hestan. The first guy probably cares more about the game (or is willing to fake it to get sportsmanship points) than the second guy who is just trying to make a customized powerlist to defeat everybody he meets.



Khorothis said:


> You miss the point completely. The problem is with the attitude of "I must win, no matter the cost", not with people who use competitive lists only. The latter is a different type of player, while the former is a kind of personality defect most people have trouble tolerating. I for one try to perfect my lists because I intend to win, since the game, for me at least, is about the thrill of matching wits and skill and doing your best to come out on top. From this perspective, I'm a competitive player too. On the other hand I also think that both sides should have a good time playing the game, because at its core its just that: a game. When I shake hands with my opponent at the end of the game I prefer to see a smile on his/her face, regardless of the outcome. I think this is what people miss about some of the competitive players, who want to make the other player run home crying.


This is a great perspective as well. That first type of person is the one that I don't want to play with and makes me not like all this powerlist making advice. It seems that people giving the same old PM, Zerker, DP advice are just trying to "make the other player run home crying." Clearly they aren't necessarily that type of person, but since people only give tiny blips of advice, it is hard to tell their character type from a few sentences.



Cyklown said:


> A concience? That doesn't really enter into things. It's not like we're always out for blood, but playing to win is where the fun is. Having the other person do their [damnedest] to cut your army off at the knees and mount your farseer's head on a spike.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But hey, we had this same discussion in magic. You're just playing a different game than we are. It's cool. We share fluff and army lists and hobby stores, we have to learn to coexist. We'll learn that the game is more about narrative for you, and you'll learn that the extra rules you added to the game aren't universally accepted. It's not like YT enjoying competition and people trying to crush me (and quite honestly, them [succeeding] is more fun than them not trying to) means I can appreciate your side of things.


You also brought up this point of having the multiple sides to this polyhedron that is this game. I see that you winning (and who doesn't really?) more than any other part of this hobby. That is fine, but like you said, we coexist in the exact same setting yet we love different parts of this game.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> And that attitude will continue not getting you points for sportsmanship.
> Winning is one thing, being an unmitigated prick is another.


 You see the thing is, using the tactic you have the most luck with isn't being un-sportsmanlike... So no I won't be losing any points for taking an army that's meant to roll over others completely and as fast as I can. 

If anything, you should lose sportsmanship points for whining about something that is completely usable within the rules. :biggrin:

It also isn't as if when I win I rub it in my opponents face, if they played a good game I congratulate them and tell them they did well. If not, I give them tips, however they choose to use them. I actually am getting tired of playing poorly thought out lists, once you beat enough of them it's not even fun. If I lose it's a learning experience.

You should get lauded for playing masterfully and putting your best list/playing forward, not bringing a "fair" list to a tourney... That's how you lose, this is how I win (so easily).


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> You see the thing is, using the tactic you have the most luck with isn't being un-sportsmanlike... So no I won't be losing any points for taking an army that's meant to roll over others completely and as fast as I can.
> 
> If anything, you should lose sportsmanship points for whining about something that is completely usable within the rules. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


"STOMP! STOMP STOMP!"
Makes it look like you DO rub your opponents' faces in it.
See?
Bad sportsmanship.
Maybe your post came out differently than you intended?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> "STOMP! STOMP STOMP!"
> Makes it look like you DO rub your opponents' faces in it.
> See?
> Bad sportsmanship.
> Maybe your post came out differently than you intended?


 It in no way reflects my sportsmanship, it's simply my saying what I do to those armies that refuse to play with a decent list. I wouldn't say "STOMP STOMP STOMP!" after I beat someone, I would give constructive criticism unless they were being an asshole about their loss.

If I really wanted to just effortlessly beat everyone, would I be arguing about how they should change their play-style to have a chance at beating me?


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## Khazaddum (Apr 2, 2009)

Thing is, arguments about sportsmanship aside, it will still be a couple of years before a new chaos codex is released. So we all have time to enjoy our lash princes and mixed armies while we can. 

On another note, I must put myself firmly into the don't use lash prince. To my mind, the rest of my list has no Slaaneshi elements so it doesn't fit. Besides, lords with a daemon weapon far outweigh a lash prince imho.




*Ducks behind cover and waits for flack to arrive*


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## Death 0F Angels (Feb 27, 2008)

GW would more likely make them squad size 1-3 so they can sell more of them. Besides, why would we only take 1 in fear of them making it so we can only take 1. doesnt make sense.


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## toalewa850 (Mar 21, 2010)

I agree with some of the stuff that your saying ,but not all of it.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree, but I say live in the moment, because we all know Blood Angels and Space Marines are the cheapest armies by far in the game.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

DestroyerHive said:


> I agree, but I say live in the moment, because we all know Blood Angels and Space Marines are the cheapest armies by far in the game.


Blood Angels haven't come out yet and Space Wolves beat the pants off of Codex Marines.

Please know what you're talking about before you cry broken.


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