# 6th Ed rumors from BOK's rideroftheerk (SALT!!!)



## Purge the Heretic

Wall of text:



> I was told in privacy but can’t vouch for the accuracy. Corrected some spelling errors from icq conversation:
> >>I am really pissed! The recent shift in GW’s marketing strategy is only the beginning. The goal is to completely control every bit of information that is going out and make every advance sneak peek look like an accidental leak. Think of Apple and you know what they are trying to achieve. They simultaneously try to keep the internet crowd happy with some leaked bits here and there and the store crowded focused on the next release. Prepare for more of these infamous “you see one eighth of the miniature and should stand in awe” pictures.
> 
> The restructured White Dwarf will be the only place for “official” news. The days when Games Days were a good source for exciting news are gone. No more seminars. Independent shop owners will get the info at the same time as the public. From autumn on product codes will be chiffres and retailers have to order bulk packages for new releases without knowing what is in it if they want to get the releases on the first day. If they want to buy the boxes individually they have to wait two weeks until GW releases the chiffres. Mail Orders won’t arrive on the day of release, they will be SENT on the day of release. So no more accidental early arrivals. If you want to buy a product on the day of release you have to go to a GW store or one of the shops that have bought the release package. There is no chance to get the products via an online store on time. The retail embargo for the southern hemisphere were initially planned for every single country, so no more exports from UK to continental Europa, but GW’s law division stopped this as it would have violated EU laws. So now they will introduce two boxes for every release with exactly the same content but different boxes. One is for the retail in a single country and comes at the standard wholesale price. The other box has all the necessary taxation and regulatory clearances for export. These boxes are virtually the same but GW is charging an extra fee for them. Online shops can choose to stop exports or accept a serious blow to their profit margins.
> 
> We, the gamers, are sitting on the receiving end of this dishonest policy once more. We are treated like children and that is exactly the goal of these changes. So here are some of their plans, as long as the info is available, to spoil some of their surprises:
> 
> * first 6th edition codexes, but release before or with rulebook, small release with single or two waves: Black Templars (1 waves: 2x plactic, 2x Finecast), Tau (1 wave: 3x plastic boxes, 4x Finecast), Necrons (2 waves)
> 
> * first real 6th edition codex: Codex Chaos Legions, really big release in three waves, doesn’t invalidate Codex Chaos Space Marines which gets extensive White Dwarf update as Codex Renegade Space Marines
> 
> * two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character
> 
> * 6th edition is finished rulewise for some time now, the overall goal is to fix some of the long time problems of the game system. Expect a lot more fundamental improvements than last edition. The rules were even more ambitious at some stage of development, but didn’t get approved as they were too far away from the established rules. The main designer left company and his successors brought the rules back in line with the existing codexes. The rules are nonetheless a bigger step forward than from 4th to 5th. Changes are so big that the next edition relies partial on erratas to fix old codexes. Development relied heavily on feedback of veteran playtesters. You can see some results of this new approach by the way the FAQs were handled in the last months. All codexes since Codex Tyranids were written with the new rules in mind, especially the new mission and reserve structure.
> 
> * The main design goals are: one book to rule them all, heroic characters, visceral combat, streamlined mechanism, cleaned up presentation and strategy before chance
> 
> * strong narrative focus on Chaos, perspective shifting from the Empire to the struggle between free races and the Warp
> 
> * the biggest rule changes:
> - similar ballistic to hit chart as wound chart: compare BS to target’s speed and unit type. BS 3 hits moving infantry on 4+, but lightning fast jetbikes on 6+ and stationary tank on 2+… HUGE
> - victory points are back, but with another twist: you get two victory points if an unit holds an objective for an entire game turn, if a scoring unit holds one, you get three and one if you destroy a squad leader or vehicle
> - before the game there is a bidding contest for the opportunity of the first turn, if you bid more strategic points you can go first, but the enemy can spent these points on stratagems as in Cities of Death: 22 generic stratagems – for example for one point you can decide on night fighting or place an automatic gun, for four you can shift your reserves, most expensive stratagems are at 12 points and are really drastic, every unspent point can be used once a game for a reroll
> - new turn sequence: prepare-movement-assault-shooting-consolidate
> new phase “consolidate” phase for random movements, jetpack movements, pursuits, morale checks/effects and resolving shooting reactions
> assault before shooting – big units are real roadblocks!<<
> 
> *
> Avatar Image
> rideroftheerk · 1 day, 2 hours ago
> 
> Some more examples for the development doctrines
> One rulebook for all:
> - flyer rules are incorporated in the main rules
> - narrative rule section that expands core rules: formations, super heavies, gaining experience
> - modular rules, core rules can easily be expanded by narratives rules or another expansion set
> 
> Heroic characters:
> - independent characters more powerful, armour save and invulnerable save at the same time
> - squad leaders more important, no more 50% rallying threshold, unit can rally as long as squad leader lives
> - independent characters can snipe
> 
> More visceral combat:
> - standard cover only 5+ now, Feel No Pain (1) only on 5+
> - slow slogging units very vulnerable
> - some weapon types are specialized in taking out specific unit types and are incredible good at doing this (sniper vs. infantry without armour), but on the other hand ordnance vs flyer isn’t going to do much
> 
> streamlined:
> - no more random movement at all
> - 5 general types of psychic powers
> - wound allocation like 4th edition on unit basis, but attacker can chose every 5th wound to go to a single model (sniper weapon every second wound)
> - artillery is normal immobile vehicle squadron, crew has no other game purpose than to be a counter for rate of fire and attacks
> 
> clean up of combusted rules:
> - there are tiers for most of the special rules. Instant Death (2) circumvents Eternal Warrior (1) for example. Feel No Pain (1) is 5+, Feel No Pain (2) is 4+ and Feel No Pain (3) is 3+. If no value is given, the special rule is tier 1.
> - no more difference between leadership test and morale test
> - terrain rules on a single page, true line of sight, non-vehicles models are ignored altogether, rules for special terrain like bunkers, ruins or deathworld mangroves in narrative rule section
> 
> less randomness, more strategic options:
> - more elaborate reserve rules, can nominate turn of arrvial and has only small change to arrive earlier or later, or can intervene behind enemy lines, arrives randomly but can hinder enemy reserves, must be distributed evenly between turn two and three, later arrivals only randomly
> -no more random game length
> -no roll for first turn
> -deep striking units more than 18” from enemy away don’t scatter, but landing in 6” is much more dangerous
> - movement impairing effects from pinning weapons even if morale check is passed (if roll is above halved Ld), Fearless not immune to this, but only effected if rolled over full Ld
> - more reactions to shooting than going to the ground depending on unit type and special rules. bikes can evade (3+ cover as same as before, but cannot assault or shoot next turn), jump troops can fly high, units with Stealth can attempt to vanish, …


-rider of the erk, BOK rumors group 

Ghost 21 has commented on this on warseer,


> starter set isn't black legion...... rest is kinda accurate


as did tastytaste


> Hey I cannot vouch for these rumors, but there is some general ideas in here that are on the right track. 6th is still being play tested and is not done for one thing. So take it with a grain of salt, but at the sametime I am sure some of things the rumorer has said will go down.



The box thing seems to make sense with the way its working now I'm told, but hadn't heard it explained so well, which makes me hesitant to discount these.



ZARDRA said:


> ok
> so i have known 6th ed is defo on it's way for quite some time and from what i heard it will change the way we play 40k forever, the studio has been working on some thing massive for quite some time and from what i heard 6th ed is meant to be all out war, ie more of a 3d game play ie again to be much more what a real battle is like thats why so many aircraft and anti air tanks ect are hitting the shelves. i even heard that a warlord titan is well on the way and that the possibility of a warhound or something close to it could be hitting gw stores some time in the future. apocalypse is meant to get even bigger as a result, as for gw treating us like kids i agree things have changed so much in the upper tears of the company that it's almost like the lodges in the heresy books, if your not one of the boys your out! or treated like a heretic.



Interesting stuff in the warseer thread:

Ghost21 says the two army boxes will be "something from the warp" and "not Marines".


> im not saying 2nd ed didnt have problems, its just i havent enjoyed 40k since
> 
> prehaps im harking for a time where squats were there
> 
> but really if you didnt like overwatch n those sort of rules you wont like the changes
> 
> ps those virus grenades were so funny


He also mentioned two new amies for the edition, BramGaunt's info says "traitor legions" (chaos legions?) and "Holy Inquisition" (WTH aren't they in the GK codex?)


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## spanner94ezekiel

Wow. Major overhaul if even half the stuff is true! :shok: Way bigger than the transition from 4th to 5th.


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## GrizBe

Since its from BOK, I'd instantly say at least 80% of it is total bollocks given the past record their of having stuff 80% wrong over the last several releases.


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## Hurricane

There are some rumors here that I would actually be quite happy to see in the game.

1) Less Random + More Strategy: This is what I crave in a game, and what made me decide to not pick up Fantasy. Taking out a little of the random element makes the game into a more competitive manner of thinking so that you're not hoping for more game turns or units in reserve. I would be very excited to see these changes.

2) Cover going to a 5+: Cover is pretty ridiculous in this edition with 4+ cover saves everywhere pretty much negating AP4 weapons. A 5+ sounds like a idea to me.

3) Stratagems: Honestly this just sounds cool and introduces a greater risk/reward element than simply rolling to go first. 

4) Chaos Legions!!!: I swore I would not be buying any more models after Grey Knights, but damnit the Thousand Sons are my absolute favorite faction in 40k and I'll be damned to not get a force if they receive plastics and a codex update!


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## normtheunsavoury

I really hope the Chaos Legions bits are right, please let at least that bit be true!


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## Caliban

The new BS stuff sounds pretty complicated but much more realistic. interesting to see how that one pans out


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## AlexHolker

I'll look at the 6th edition bit soon, but I just want to point something out:


> The retail embargo for the southern hemisphere were initially planned for every single country, so no more exports from UK to continental Europa, but GW’s law division stopped this as it would have violated EU laws. So now they will introduce two boxes for every release with exactly the same content but different boxes. One is for the retail in a single country and comes at the standard wholesale price. The other box has all the necessary taxation and regulatory clearances for export. These boxes are virtually the same but GW is charging an extra fee for them. Online shops can choose to stop exports or accept a serious blow to their profit margins.


The difference between exports and domestic sales is actually that you pay _less_ tax on them. The government likes it when foreigners pay their citizens' wages, so they waive the VAT/GST/sales tax if the product is being exported. In other words either GW or RideroftheErk are lying through their teeth.


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## MrPete

Some of this stuff sounds pretty good, but other bits just strike me as getting needlessly complex - tiered USRs for example, it'd probably end up being a massive pain in the hole to follow who has what tier of rule in decently sized games. As would the new BS chart. More realistic but getting pretty complex.

Being able to take both an armour and an invulnerable save would be...interesting. It'd make certain stuff nigh on unkillable - terminator armour and storm shield, sanguinor, draigo etc. 

The cover stuff sounds good though, it'd be a nice change from the massive amounts that there is now. Units that need it (ie pathfinders) would still benefit, but it'd be more reasonable all round.

The one bit I genuinely don't believe, and would be very suprised if it turned out to be true, is the bit about two starter sets, one with DA and one with generic chaos. We know how much GW loves money, but if you can't immediatly play a game out of the starter set, whats the point? Sure the IoB lists were illegal, but you still had two armies you could play. Although half of me can see them pulling this move to stop everyone picking up certain armies cheap off ebay by purchasing someones unwanted half of the starter box. 

But, as GrizBe said - this is BOK. So I guess we'll have to wait and see how much is true and how much is a wild stab in the dark.


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## gen.ahab

Yeah, most of this is bullshit. Well, so I hear. However, from what I heard, this shit is going to be a HUGE change.


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## elmir

Caliban said:


> The new BS stuff sounds pretty complicated but much more realistic. interesting to see how that one pans out


This is where I take it with a grain of salt. Why on earth would they aim to make hitting more complicated? I'm really sceptical about that rumour. The global trend is to make the game more streamlined and geared towards bigger and bigger battles. Making the to hit system more complicated shouldn't really be happening. It's not like rolling to hit is insanely broken right now(or ever since 3rd). Cover... yes, but not to hit.


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## imm0rtal reaper

While I don't believe anything I hear from BoK, I'm still praying this isn't true. There's a lot in here that I really wouldn't want to see. 

Take the shooting for example. Yes it's more realistic, but I don't think it will work at the 40k level. For a skirmish game it would be fine, not 40k. 

This seems like quite a drastic change, adding more complex rules for the sake of being complex. 

Time will tell, but if this is a true representation of 6th ed. then I can see myself moving away from 40k.


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## Jezlad

Victory points? 

I'm listening. Hopefully the 6th ed book wont spend its days propping up cat shit in the litter tray like 5th.


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## imm0rtal reaper

I'd be quite happy if the only changes in 6th were bring back victory points and change the universal cover to 5+, maybe even 6+.


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## MadCowCrazy

Looks rather interesting, will have to get myself one of the starter set rulebooks from ebay or something.


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## ohiocat110

If any of this is true, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. With errata-ed codexes and White Dwarf rules, players are going to have to start lugging file cabinets around to games. The game system would be a fragmented mess. 

The strategy points things sounds cool, but would be a total 180 for GW in terms of game complexity. Seems like a very unwieldy and un-GW system to add strategy back into games. 

Some of this may pan out, but it seems more like guesswork and wishful thinking.


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## imm0rtal reaper

ohiocat110 said:


> If any of this is true, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. With errata-ed codexes and White Dwarf rules, players are going to have to start lugging file cabinets around to games. The game system would be a fragmented mess.
> 
> The strategy points things sounds cool, but would be a total 180 for GW in terms of game complexity. Seems like a very unwieldy and un-GW system to add strategy back into games.
> 
> Some of this may pan out, but it seems more like guesswork and wishful thinking.


I agree, much of it seems like complexity for the sake of complexity to me.


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## torealis

Jezlad said:


> Victory points?
> 
> 
> I'm listening. Hopefully the 6th ed book wont spend its days propping up cat shit in the litter tray like 5th.


You and your VPs... 

I can vouch for the stuff about the advance orders and releases and rumours. GW are really pushing stores rather than the internet. They want more bodies in the doors...


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## Caliban

elmir said:


> This is where I take it with a grain of salt. Why on earth would they aim to make hitting more complicated? I'm really sceptical about that rumour. The global trend is to make the game more streamlined and geared towards bigger and bigger battles. Making the to hit system more complicated shouldn't really be happening. It's not like rolling to hit is insanely broken right now(or ever since 3rd). Cover... yes, but not to hit.


not necessarily, this could work similarly to the current vehicle damge table. i.e. modifiers to hit: tank +2 bs, fast moves/MC's +1 bs, small units, -1 bs.

pretty straight forward and fair. nothing more annoying than a lascannon having the same odds of hitting a grethlin 48" away as it does a landraider 1" away.


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## imm0rtal reaper

Caliban said:


> not necessarily, this could work similarly to the current vehicle damge table. i.e. modifiers to hit: tank +2 bs, fast moves/MC's +1 bs, small units, -1 bs.
> 
> pretty straight forward and fair. nothing more annoying than a lascannon having the same odds of hitting a grethlin 48" away as it does a landraider 1" away.


Then introduce the over half range rules like fantasy has. So when shooting at something over half the range of the weapon away, it's harder to hit.


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## turel2

Alot of these changes would be for the best. However a pinch of salt is needed.


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## Fallen

eh...i dont really like the "tier" system for USRs that would be a huge pain in the ass to deal with. especially if it meant that every codex NEEDS an immediate FAQ just to be playable.

im personally ok with the two part starter set, especially if the CSM one comes with a special character and is awesome for the price.

personally the shooting rules & the swapping of the phases sound a little too much like fantasy, and honestly im not that big a fan of it because its just overcomplicated with it, might as well just let each unit have some free "marker lights".


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## ZARDRA

ok
so i have known 6th ed is defo on it's way for quite some time and from what i heard it will change the way we play 40k forever, the studio has been working on some thing massive for quite some time and from what i heard 6th ed is meant to be all out war, ie more of a 3d game play ie again to be much more what a real battle is like thats why so many aircraft and anti air tanks ect are hitting the shelves. i even heard that a warlord titan is well on the way and that the possibility of a warhound or something close to it could be hitting gw stores some time in the future. apocalypse is meant to get even bigger as a result, as for gw treating us like kids i agree things have changed so much in the upper tears of the company that it's almost like the lodges in the heresy books, if your not one of the boys your out! or treated like a heretic.


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## GreatUncleanOne

This is sounding weird for the most part. not GW being cocks (thats a given). its about technically making 40K more complicated (for kids). It sounds like a complete turn around for GW. For the last couple of editions they've tried simplifying the rules for the wee cherubs because the majority of kids would pick futuristic war over medieval war.

I know this because I used to work for GW and had to deal with all the little cherubs :ireful2:

although again they are making sure that people buy unique chars by making them even more powerful (gits)


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## Doelago

Wait, did I see something which fucked it over for my Paladins in there?


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## mcmuffin

I actually, for the most part, like the sound of these changes, speaking from a competitive perspective. The BS modifiers sound good to me, and cover being toned down sounds great. Chaos legions sound jizzable, as do the starter sets.
I like the idea of more realistic rules tbh, even if they slow down the game, and the return of VPs would be welcomed.


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## Masked Jackal

40k is in need of a bit more complexity to its ruleset, but this doesn't seem like a move GW would make. Oh well, we'll see.


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## jimbo1701

Special character for Chaos has to be Abaddon in the starter set. Looking forward to seeing how all this shapes up over the next 12 months.


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## LukeValantine

Got to say a lot of this stuff looks like a unhealthy mix of bullshit and wish listing.

Note: Also if even half of these rules are to be implemented it will completely break the simpler is better motto they have been going with up to the GK codex, and in fact if all are implemented keeping track of a 40k will almost require note taking during the battle.


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## gally912

LukeValantine said:


> Got to say a lot of this stuff looks like a unhealthy mix of bullshit and wish listing.


Wait... are you saying people just make wish-lists, toss in a few things other people have said and try to pass it off like valid rumour?

Surely you jest!


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## Shandathe

Don't call him Shirley. That's my call too.


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## LukeValantine

AH naked gun reference.


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## Purge the Heretic

Not a pinch of salt but a truckload...I hadn't seen them outside of BOK though so I thought I'd get them up here.

Some of it does mesh rather well with some things I've heard is all, I'm having trouble picking too much of it apart.


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## Katie Drake

I think BoK has made this crap up entirely because he knows he has an audience due to the Battle Sister rumors that were recently released - they're trying to ride the wave and keep it going.

If I'm wrong, I'll personally apologize to BoK and... I dunno, take a picture of myself doing something really embarrassing or something. I'm that confident.


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## Chimaera

> I dunno, take a picture of myself doing something really embarrassing or something.


LOL you may end up wishing you never said that :biggrin:


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## Shandathe

Pffsh, embarrassment is determined by our Supergirl fan. Embarrassing might be anything from walking into a gay bar to helping an old lady cross the street


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## Chimaera

> Embarrassing might be anything from walking into a gay bar to helping an old lady cross the street


You telling me you've never walked into a gay bar or helped an old lady across the street in your whole life? What falls in between? Losing your footing in public  I think if this one comes to fruition it may come down to a forum vote thread to satisfy the members :grin:


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## The Sullen One

While I'm hoping Katie is wrong, sadly I think she's right. When you look at the rumours, they just don't make sense.

First, why would Games Workshop, a company that prides itself on taking one thing and turning it into two or even three things, in order to make more money, deliberately lose money by sticking all the expansions in with the main rulebook?

Second, given that the rumours mention a streamlined mechanism, why would they then introduce variable BS systems, tiered special rules and the like? Seriously, one of the selling points of 40k is that it's a nice, simple game, that doesn't take much to learn.

Third, why would you introduce changes that would eliminate certain army types from being playable? Added together, reduced cover save, increased vulnerability to slow, slogging units and the incoporation of flyer rules into the main rulebook would make it very difficult to play with horde armies.

Fourth, why would Games Workshop replace the successful starter set, something they've had since second edition (can't remember what edition of WFB first featured a starter set, might be third though), and that Privateer Press have finally cottoned onto with the new two player Warmachine box, with two seperate starter sets, both of which you need to buy, when the rulebook is avaliable? 

Added together these rumours seem more like wishful thinking, especially since they indicate that certain types of armies will fair better than others. True, that always happens when a new edition comes along (look at Bretonnians in 8th Edition Warhammer), but not to the extent that certain armies and certain popular units (Vindicators) end up becoming seriously disadvantaged.


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## Topknot11

Thats so weird I called them and suggested something like that (i know they didnt really care and were just being polite by listning) that instead of one big box set like black reach they should put the rules and templates in each army starter box. I had heard re peatedly that the 6th edition set would be SoB, and Chaos. Now DA and Chaos so chaos seems to deff. be up. I think the only people that have been truly happy with their respective codices' have been SW. GK. and DE. They have totally screwed up the chaos codex, and they have wimpified the SM. They are moving this more towards a vehicle oriented game. Back in the 90's this was a SQUAD oriented combat game not any more, so look for flyers and vehicles to get a big boost as was mentioned earlier.


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## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> I think BoK has made this crap up entirely because he knows he has an audience due to the Battle Sister rumors that were recently released - they're trying to ride the wave and keep it going.


Except if you'd bothered to actually check, it's not 'from' BoK. It's the equivalent of someone with zero post history making a thread here on Heresy Online with wild claims and then labeling all of HO as shit :no:

It's exactly the same thing that happened when some random person uploaded those fake SoB scans there. BoK front page =/= BoK community pages.


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## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Except if you'd bothered to actually check, it's not 'from' BoK. It's the equivalent of someone with zero post history making a thread here on Heresy Online with wild claims and then labeling all of HO as shit :no:
> 
> It's exactly the same thing that happened when some random person uploaded those fake SoB scans there. BoK front page =/= BoK community pages.


Details, details...

That was my second time ever visiting BoK, you'll have to forgive me.


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## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> Details, details...
> 
> That was my second time ever visiting BoK, you'll have to forgive me.


But that's more than enough to make blanket statements, right? :no:


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## MetalHandkerchief

This better be bullshit. Assaults before shooting and harder to hit with shooting and more preferrable to assault? Checkbox: "Tau are fucked" - Check.

Downgrade to 5+ FNP? Checkbox: "Dark Eldar are fucked" - Check.

Without those two armies to play competitively there is nothing in 40K left to interest me past the point of yawn, so I guess this game is finally going to be completely unplayable for me.

I take that really well though, since I felt nauseous whenever I gave money to that greedy mismanaged company anyway.


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## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> But that's more than enough to make blanket statements, right? :no:


More than enough, yes. :good:

Are you a little mad or something?


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## Marneus Calgar

The first part of that are pretty much pre existing rumours that have been floating for a while now. 

GW aren't about making things complicated, they are all about the young kids and getting them to stay, making it overly complicated and difficult to learn for a child then it's not worthy, simply because GW won't be making so much of the "summer" holiday hobby money. 

BS and WS tables are fine as they are, I can't see why they would make them complicated, it makes it easier to understand in terms of real world sense. But, in gameplay it just adds more rules to learn and makes it too difficult. 

Stealth units being able to "disappear"?! Are they playing DOW too much or something? That doesn't make sense, some models who have the stealth rule wouldn't have the ability to become completely invisible... 



> two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character


This also makes no sense, why would replace a system that has been in use since well, forever? 2 armies makes sense, because you can effectively play against yourself. Having one single army doesn't really give the beginner a lot of scope to play if I'm honest, because they'd be relying on getting to their local store/gw and playing. Meaning it would take longer to learn rules (better to learn with someone with you ie. Beginner days), meaning people get bored easier. I don't think this is really that valid...



> strong narrative focus on Chaos, perspective shifting from the Empire to the struggle between free races and the Warp


Makes sense, these are "the end times" after all...

Yeah, I would like to see the game become more competitive and more tactics based (my podcast could do with that...). But, some of this stuff is complete bs.

Also, 3 years between editions? Really? That makes it the fastest edition change? Really?


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## Vhalyar

Katie Drake said:


> More than enough, yes. :good:
> 
> Are you a little mad or something?


Just thinking that it's a bit sad from you 
Are YOU mad that he called out the whole Sister/WD deal?


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## Katie Drake

Vhalyar said:


> Just thinking that it's a bit sad from you


If I'm wrong, I'll feel bad.



> Are YOU mad that he called out the whole Sister/WD deal?


No, not at all. I'm very excited for the Sisters and I believe that he's right. I just... think that this 6th edition thing is crap. If it didn't come from BoK's mouth, then fine. That doesn't change that it's bullshit.


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## Crimson Shadow

LukeValantine said:


> AH naked gun reference.


I think you mean Airplane!, still Leslie Neilsen though.


As far as the "leaks", I'm curious about the no roll for first turn. I wonder what mechanism they've devised to determine who goes first, who sets up first, etc.


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## Akhara'Keth

Katie Drake said:


> I just... think that this 6th edition thing is crap. If it didn't come from BoK's mouth, then fine. That doesn't change that it's bullshit.


I totally agree. It just sounds so....unreal. More like the notes from an "idea for the 6th edition" meeting. Assault phase before shooting? Sounds like complete BS for me. I mean, the thing with the bidding for first turn. Why should I take first turn when I could have like 20 Re-Rolls in a game? I can see this things coming with the next 2 or 3 editions, but not everything in 1. From what I read here, I'd prefer to stay with the 5th edition.


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## Zion

Well I'm suddenly interesting in seeing how 6th Edition changes the game.

A lot of this stuff looks like it could be really interesting. And it's a lot of specifics there, so either someone is being fed a line, is good at feeding the rest of us a line or knows what they're talking about. 

I gotta say I like the idea of the starter kits being smaller and only containing one army instead of two. That means they can be cheaper, and you don't have to try to pawn off half a box you don't want on a friend. And I could see GW actually doing it since it means that we can't make money on the halves we don't use on the internet.


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## jfvz

If even a few of these things are true then it looks like they are trying to make it even more into a mech game (my poor nids). But the changes to the BS making it easier to hit and destroy vehicles doesnt flow with this trend. 

Chaos legions? is this meant to be the thrid set of the chaos sms, chaos daemons and what i basically think as traitor guard that i heard was the orignal plan?

Taking ++ and armour saves at the same time will make th/ss termies extreamly overpowered. And if they put in a Tzeench version of these would just be insanely oped.

I like the more realistic approach suggested here, but i agree it doesnt realy sound like gw whjo are simplifying the **** out of the game to get the little kiddies able 2 play it. My personal preferance is make 2 rule books, one for the more complex rules and the 40k for idiots/ kids addition but i doubt that will happen.

But what does sound like gw is the screwing over the inderpendent retailers and us even more with all the cloak and dagger ****, as well as taking any excuse (no matter how poor or wrong) to hit us for more money.


----------



## sybarite

as many have said before l don't see this happing, full deepstike armies will become very good as they don't care for 1st turn and with save plus inv will be gods. DA/GK temi army full deepstike.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin

MetalHandkerchief said:


> This better be bullshit. Assaults before shooting and harder to hit with shooting and more preferrable to assault? Checkbox: "Tau are fucked" - Check.
> 
> Downgrade to 5+ FNP?* AND lower Cover saves*? Checkbox: "Dark Eldar are *Double *fucked" - Check.
> 
> Without those two armies to play competitively there is nothing in 40K left to interest me past the point of yawn, so I guess this game is finally going to be completely unplayable for me.
> 
> I take that really well though, since I felt nauseous whenever I gave money to that greedy mismanaged company anyway.


fixed

oh and:

Make the game so SM are the only race that can win checkbox: check


----------



## broran

no more random movement did spore mines just go from short trem area denial to a potential threat lol


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Ghost 21 has commented on this on warseer,


> starter set isn't black legion...... rest is kinda accurate


as did tastytaste


> Hey I cannot vouch for these rumors, but there is some general ideas in here that are on the right track. 6th is still being play tested and is not done for one thing. So take it with a grain of salt, but at the sametime I am sure some of things the rumorer has said will go down.


----------



## jfvz

sybarite said:


> as many have said before l don't see this happing, full deepstike armies will become very good as they don't care for 1st turn and with save plus inv will be gods. DA/GK temi army full deepstike.


Full deepstrike armies = good? 
Does that mean that daemons might actually get better?


----------



## Katie Drake

jfvz said:


> Full deepstrike armies = good?
> Does that mean that daemons might actually get better?


Better yes, but becoming truly competitive would take more than just a couple changes to Deep Strike.


----------



## fynn

im sure little timmy would love the more complex rules....not. I can see the little kids watching a demo game with more complex rules, and seeing there eyes glaze over. 
And i can imageing little timmys dads reaction to only single army starter sets, "what you mean i have to buy 2 sets to have a game with my son????"
Now i can see the appeal of single army starter sets, but i think that be a bad idea in reguards to there target audiance of little timmy and co, i know the vets want em, but dont forget, GW dont give a fuck what the vet wants, they only care about there target audiance and makeing as much money as quickly as they can.


----------



## Alexious

The only thing I cannot fathom even if half of this is true, is not leading with the vanilla SM codex with the change to 6th.

I do appreciate that BT are according to this close.... but really? No Ultra? Come on.... lol. We have had year after year after year of a big four basic marine issue since 2nd ed really and it pays dividends. I do appreciate that BT are almost that way anyway... but truly? From a marketing perspective I was sure it would be SM vanilla for release as it is without doubt the easiest army to build upon. I cannot see them updating every single box set art and design to incorporate templars..... the basic SM flavor love it or hate it, is a bit like going to a supermarket for bread and milk and if its BT... being told sorry we have only brown bread today... just doesn't sit right to me.


----------



## Azezel

The only believable bit of those rumours is the idea that Games Workshop think seven Marine codices are not enough.


----------



## coke123

ohiocat110 said:


> If any of this is true, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. With errata-ed codexes and White Dwarf rules, players are going to have to start lugging file cabinets around to games. The game system would be a fragmented mess.
> 
> The strategy points things sounds cool, but would be a total 180 for GW in terms of game complexity. Seems like a very unwieldy and un-GW system to add strategy back into games.
> 
> Some of this may pan out, but it seems more like guesswork and wishful thinking.


They did that for Fantasy 8th edition, and it works just fine and dandy.

I must say, the rumoured changes to turn sequence seems a little off. Assault before Shooting? Why do I have assault weapons again?


----------



## The Sullen One

MetalHandkerchief said:


> This better be bullshit. Assaults before shooting and harder to hit with shooting and more preferrable to assault? Checkbox: "Tau are fucked" - Check.
> 
> Downgrade to 5+ FNP? Checkbox: "Dark Eldar are fucked" - Check.
> 
> Without those two armies to play competitively there is nothing in 40K left to interest me past the point of yawn, so I guess this game is finally going to be completely unplayable for me.
> 
> I take that really well though, since I felt nauseous whenever I gave money to that greedy mismanaged company anyway.


Don't worry, Games Workshop aren't about to screw over an army they've spent so much time and money redeveloping and relaunching.



jfvz said:


> Full deepstrike armies = good?
> Does that mean that daemons might actually get better?





Katie Drake said:


> Better yes, but becoming truly competitive would take more than just a couple changes to Deep Strike.


Cough - Khorne Daemons - Cough.



fynn said:


> im sure little timmy would love the more complex rules....not. I can see the little kids watching a demo game with more complex rules, and seeing there eyes glaze over.
> And i can imageing little timmys dads reaction to only single army starter sets, "what you mean i have to buy 2 sets to have a game with my son????"
> Now i can see the appeal of single army starter sets, but i think that be a bad idea in reguards to there target audiance of little timmy and co, i know the vets want em, but dont forget, GW dont give a fuck what the vet wants, they only care about there target audiance and makeing as much money as quickly as they can.


Speaking as a vet, I don't want single army starter sets. There's no point to them (especially since we've already got Battleforces). Where the other army is concerned you can always use them for painting practice, or simply to enjoy a different way of playing. Failing that, you can always sell them for more than it cost you to buy them and make a profit.:so_happy::biggrin:


----------



## Zion

The Sullen One said:


> Speaking as a vet, I don't want single army starter sets. There's no point to them (especially since we've already got Battleforces). Where the other army is concerned you can always use them for painting practice, or simply to enjoy a different way of playing. Failing that, you can always sell them for more than it cost you to buy them and make a profit.:so_happy::biggrin:


That last bit is why I can't rule the single boxes out. GW has shown they're very much against anyone outside of their stores and corporate structure making money off of their products, and have gone out of their way to shut down every company they could who even looks at their IP funny.


----------



## The Sullen One

Zion said:


> That last bit is why I can't rule the single boxes out. GW has shown they're very much against anyone outside of their stores and corporate structure making money off of their products, and have gone out of their way to shut down every company they could who even looks at their IP funny.


From that point of view, single army starter boxes would make sense, but given that Privateer Press have just started doing a two army box (and that other companies such as Battlefront do one), I'd be surprised if GW stopped doing a two army box. Would be nice though if one army didn't have an advantage over the other, a la (it's not a lightning arc, it's French) Island of Blood.


----------



## Achaylus72

I'll believe it when i see it.

Chaos would have to get some serious muscle in the next Codex.

I just hope they (GW) don't stuff this up or it might be the death knell for them. But going on their past record, nothing is out of the question.

Then again i like the idea of a Combined Dark Angels/Chaos Box Set, finally might add Dark Angels into my Sons of Achaylus as i already have Cypher.


----------



## MrPete

Honestly, the more I read these rumours, the more it just seems like a massive pile of bullshit. Just a lot of contradictions, unnecessary changes and too much altering/nerfing of recent codexes.


----------



## SilverTabby

I'd be more inclined to listen to rumourmongers if they didn't start their posts with petulant whining about how 'GW are dicks because they don't want their stuff spilled across the internet before release, so I'm going to be a dick in return'. 

I know people like to know stuff beforehand, but having been on the other side of ruined special releases I know how horrible it is, and exactly why companies try to stop it (yes, companies other than GW do this!) So with regards to bitching about GWs policy on clamping down on pre-release leakage: Everyone who peddles rumours only has themselves to blame, and GW has every right to do this as a valid and fair response.

edit: this is mostly aimed at the BoK chaps, but not exclusively.


----------



## Shandathe

I've said it before, but GW's problem isn't so much their policies as it is the way they (fail to) communicate. On some level, they understand - they're trying to use their stores to build a relation with their customers and keep people interested. 

On other levels though, like the internet... Instead of engaging the fans and building hype, they're... well, *doing it wrong*.


----------



## space cowboy

I would also say BS to most of this stuff, just from my past experiences with Games Workshop in general and 40k specifically. I think I would be really turned off by the strategy point rule, as it seems unnecessarily complicated for the basic game. I understand making an expansion or having expanded game play variants in a White Dwarf, but it makes no sense for the basic game if you ask me.


----------



## farseer22

Zion said:


> That last bit is why I can't rule the single boxes out. GW has shown they're very much against anyone outside of their stores and corporate structure making money off of their products, and have gone out of their way to shut down every company they could who even looks at their IP funny.


They don't really have an option as far as their IP goes. The very nature of the way copyright laws work means that they have to defend their IP or they lose control of it. If they let one company infringe on their IP then the next company that does can just point to the first one and say "you let them do it so you have to let us" and all of a sudden their IP is public domain.



SilverTabby said:


> I'd be more inclined to listen to rumourmongers if they didn't start their posts with petulant whining about how 'GW are dicks because they don't want their stuff spilled across the internet before release, so I'm going to be a dick in return'.
> 
> I know people like to know stuff beforehand, but having been on the other side of ruined special releases I know how horrible it is, and exactly why companies try to stop it (yes, companies other than GW do this!) So with regards to bitching about GWs policy on clamping down on pre-release leakage: Everyone who peddles rumours only has themselves to blame, and GW has every right to do this as a valid and fair response.
> 
> edit: this is mostly aimed at the BoK chaps, but not exclusively.


I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that a lot of these rumors are BS pushed out by the GW marketing team as false information. It gives us something to talk about and builds hype for the new rules, even if only 10% of the rumors are true. Imagine how releived you'll be when 6th ed comes out and you find they didn't move the assult phase to be before shooting.


----------



## Zion

farseer22 said:


> They don't really have an option as far as their IP goes. The very nature of the way copyright laws work means that they have to defend their IP or they lose control of it. If they let one company infringe on their IP then the next company that does can just point to the first one and say "you let them do it so you have to let us" and all of a sudden their IP is public domain.


Right, but I was more pointing out how aggressive they are against resellers, and their long standing dislike of people reselling their product (namely stuff on sprue, like Assault on Black Reach kits or bitz sites).


----------



## exsulis

> * two starter sets, each with rules, dices, movement markers, mission booklet, one with Dark Angels and fitting scenery, the other with Black Legion and Chaos scenery. You can combine both to play the campaign or use one set alone to play a selection of dumbed down scenarios against every other force, first starter set that comes with a model for a well established special character


From a marketing PoV this is good, and retarded in the same way. Now if GW was do something along the lines of 4-6 starter sets then it would work a little better.




> * 6th edition is finished rulewise for some time now, the overall goal is to fix some of the long time problems of the game system. Expect a lot more fundamental improvements than last edition. The rules were even more ambitious at some stage of development, but didn’t get approved as they were too far away from the established rules. The main designer left company and his successors brought the rules back in line with the existing codexes.



That little caveat is kinda true for those that remember Andy Hoare, and JJ became the head dev. And look to that Starship trooper game to see some of what he wanted for 40k.


----------



## farseer22

Zion said:


> Right, but I was more pointing out how aggressive they are against resellers, and their long standing dislike of people reselling their product (namely stuff on sprue, like Assault on Black Reach kits or bitz sites).


Yeah, I don't really get that part of it. It seems to me that the more stuff is sold, the more they make. I think maybe their marketing team needs to talk to the leagle department and explain to them what "hype" means.


----------



## The Sullen One

Zion said:


> Right, but I was more pointing out how aggressive they are against resellers, and their long standing dislike of people reselling their product (namely stuff on sprue, like Assault on Black Reach kits or bitz sites).


Which they can't stop. Legally if you buy something, you can do what you like with it, so if I buy a hundred Orks, paint them up and then put a picture of those now painted Orks on Ebay so I can sell them, then that's fine and GW don't really have a problem with that, or with the bitz sites.

What they've been taking exception to is people using their imagery to sell stuff, i.e. the Cover of the Ork battleforce is used to sell one, or in the case of Chapterhouse, actual infringement of their IP.

On topic, I'm surprised how many people elsewhere (not on Heresy) seem to be accepting these rumours concerning 6th edition as gospel. Seriously it's a year off and I'll bet that the finished product is a smoother transition from 5th than these rumours say it will be.


----------



## Lash Machine

I feel that most of the rumours are bollocks. I have not got time top point out some of the basic failings of the rumour apart from the idea that GW got veteran players to play test the rules. That for a start is utter rubbish.


----------



## Shandathe

GW's staff counts as veteran players dammit :wink:


----------



## Masked Jackal

Shandathe said:


> GW's staff counts as veteran players dammit :wink:


The kind of veteran that forgets all the rules and doesn't understand the metagame at all.


----------



## Shandathe

In short, a representative average of the GW player base


----------



## Masked Jackal

Shandathe said:


> In short, a representative average of the GW player base


Unfortunately, yes. XD We need the above-average players testing these things dammit!


----------



## exsulis

I think we need playtesters that can read the book every so often


----------



## Shandathe

FWIW, I suspect many of the GW staff are better players than they're letting on. Even looking at the WD batreps (which have been getting better now that the new army occasionally loses) there's a few hints...

Check the army lists for instance - you can see units they've been forced to take (ie. what's shiny and new this month), a measure of enforced variation, and the remaining choices - in that context - generally make a lot of sense in terms of trying to get some effectiveness back in.

Anyone know if GW staff ever enters actual tournaments (with non-silly lists)?


----------



## Abomination

Some of these rumours I like, some I don't. The stuff about there being rules for flyers is probaly the only thing that is certain. I just hope that, regardless of changes, the rulebook is actually well-written.


----------



## Azezel

Shandathe said:


> FWIW, I suspect many of the GW staff are better players than they're letting on. Even looking at the WD batreps (which have been getting better now that the new army occasionally loses) there's a few hints...
> 
> Check the army lists for instance - you can see units they've been forced to take (ie. what's shiny and new this month), a measure of enforced variation, and the remaining choices - in that context - generally make a lot of sense in terms of trying to get some effectiveness back in.
> 
> Anyone know if GW staff ever enters actual tournaments (with non-silly lists)?


I understand that Ward is/was a tournie player and winner, with 'crons no less. That must have been a while ago, though.


----------



## Katie Drake

Azezel said:


> I understand that Ward is/was a tournie player and winner, with 'crons no less. That must have been a while ago, though.


There used to be GW staff tournaments, but this was years ago. I'm not sure about nowadays.

Alessio used to be a tournament player too, with Biel-Tan Eldar, I think (though he doesn't work for GW anymore).


----------



## Luisjoey

Seem a big change like fantasy from 7th to 8th! WOW! 

hope it really improves the game

i´m excited about CHAOS LEGIONS codex! and the starter! GREAT!


----------



## exsulis

Shandathe said:


> Anyone know if GW staff ever enters actual tournaments (with non-silly lists)?


Anyone remember the staff challenge? That was fun!! Most of the time it would be a steamroll over most of the staff. Though back in 4th ed Necrons always being the final staffer's army. Ugg, I hated the triple Lith armies.



> i´m excited about CHAOS LEGIONS codex!


Only if they beat that codex with the Nerf bat, Cannon, and drop the Nerf planet on it. I really have no interest in dealing with the 3.5 mess again. "Here is my list" me: " :ireful2: WTH is this mess?" and have one HQ kill an entire army.


----------



## The Sullen One

Pete Foley and Christian Byrne are regular tournament participants, though Byrne does it more for the painting awards than the games.

As for the rumoured inclusion of flyer rules, please god no. Horde Orks would stop being a viable army and become simply this: :suicide:


----------



## Horacus

normtheunsavoury said:


> I really hope the Chaos Legions bits are right, please let at least that bit be true!


Amen to that. I like how that sound but...not that high hopes...


----------



## coke123

Shandathe said:


> FWIW, I suspect many of the GW staff are better players than they're letting on. Even looking at the WD batreps (which have been getting better now that the new army occasionally loses) there's a few hints...
> 
> Check the army lists for instance - you can see units they've been forced to take (ie. what's shiny and new this month), a measure of enforced variation, and the remaining choices - in that context - generally make a lot of sense in terms of trying to get some effectiveness back in.


Yeah, I get that feeling too. I reckon Phil Kelley's just dying to rip shit up with DE, but he's being forced to advertise the latest model...



Shandathe said:


> Anyone know if GW staff ever enters actual tournaments (with non-silly lists)?


There's been mention of a couple of guys at GW entering tournaments; last year there was a resident GW tourney player that took over a Standard Bearer article to chat about it. Around Throne of Skulls every year you'll see armies from staff members entering being featured on their blog.



Katie Drake said:


> There used to be GW staff tournaments, but this was years ago. I'm not sure about nowadays.


The Sydney Battle Bunker still has the occasional staff tournament, although it's more for the store staff from across Sydney than for the Australian HQ.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin

Katie Drake said:


> There used to be GW staff tournaments, but this was years ago. I'm not sure about nowadays.
> 
> Alessio used to be a tournament player too, with Biel-Tan Eldar, I think (though he doesn't work for GW anymore).


the guys at the Younge and Lawrence GW do it very rarely still, though its few and far between


----------



## Katie Drake

KhainiteAssassin said:


> the guys at the Younge and Lawrence GW do it very rarely still, though its few and far between


Sorry, I should confirm.

By staff tournaments, I meant GW HQ in Nottingham, not random GW stores all over the place.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Interesting stuff in he warseer thread:

Ghost21 says the two army boxes will be "something from the warp" and "not Marines".

He also mentioned two new amies for the edition, Bramaunt's info says "traitor legions" (chaos legions?) and "Holy Inquisition" (WTH aren't they in the GK codex?)


----------



## LordWaffles

Chaos Legions?

I don't believe any of it, these all sound like stellar ideas.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

UPDATED first post


----------



## Achaylus72

What is BoK?


----------



## fox-light713

Achaylus72 said:


> What is BoK?


Blood of Kittens its a blog - http://bloodofkittens.com/

the rumor came from one of its community threads.


----------



## Masked Jackal

Purge the Heretic said:


> Interesting stuff in he warseer thread:
> 
> Ghost21 says the two army boxes will be "something from the warp" and "not Marines".
> 
> He also mentioned two new amies for the edition, Bramaunt's info says "traitor legions" (chaos legions?) and "Holy Inquisition" (WTH aren't they in the GK codex?)


Sounding more and more bullshit here. :/


----------



## The Sullen One

Masked Jackal said:


> Sounding more and more bullshit here. :/


Agreed, it's really surprising how many people over there (WS) are buying this. Personally I can't understand why, with people comparing these rumours to how it used to be in 2nd edition (and then moaning about 2nd edition complexity) why they'd be happy.


----------



## Masked Jackal

I just hope they really are adding Chaos Legions. I really liked Chaos too much to give them up, but the codex is too subpar. I like my Dark Eldar, but Chaos pace Marines really appeal to me as well.


----------



## Achaylus72

Although i have in the past been dead set against it, i would now love to see seperate Codexes for the major Chaos Legions, and more fluff and more (as the Orks would say) killy stuff.


----------



## Masked Jackal

Even more than Space Marines (blech) Chaos Space Marines deserve separate codices. They are the most varied force in 40k, without a doubt, at least in the fluff.


----------



## Azezel

We already have _seven_ Marine codices. Why in god's name do we need another?


----------



## Masked Jackal

Azezel said:


> We already have _seven_ Marine codices. Why in god's name do we need another?


So that Chaos gets some love.


----------



## TheSpore

I think it is time that chaos finally got some love as well. though what should be done is just have a book put simply called 

THE BIG NASTY EVIL BOOK CHAOS and then we would all wind up calling it TBNEC


----------



## Masked Jackal

Codex: Chaos Legions.

442 pages, Hardback, full-color.


----------



## TheSpore

Masked Jackal said:


> Codex: Chaos Legions.
> 
> 442 pages, Hardback, full-color.


with pop up pictures and spells on how to summon your own daemons to do your bidding


----------



## Achaylus72

Azezel said:


> We already have _seven_ Marine codices. Why in god's name do we need another?


Because Space Marine get all the fluff and killy stuff under the planet and basically fuck all for everyone else.

Remember technically Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines that have been boosted by the forces of Chaos, the CSM should in theory be stronger than the Space Marines.

And besides we have not had any additions to the Chaos Family since September 2007, that is 3 years, 7 months and 3 weeks without one single new unit or IC, the only diff is that some units and IC have come out in Finecast resin big effing deal.


----------



## Masked Jackal

A new Daemon Prince came out awhile back, but that's about it.


----------



## TheSpore

Masked Jackal said:


> A new Daemon Prince came out awhile back, but that's about it.


yeah but its main intention was for the daemon army and that damn prince had been laying around done for years they only just now decided to release it. If you look in one of the older fantasy chaos books they actually put a pic of it in there and never released it until now


----------



## Masked Jackal

TheSpore said:


> yeah but its main intention was for the daemon army and that damn prince had been laying around done for years they only just now decided to release it. If you look in one of the older fantasy chaos books they actually put a pic of it in there and never released it until now


Yep, in the Warriors of Chaos army book, which came out several years ago I think. Chaos needs a red-carpet treatment when they come back to the fore.


----------



## TheSpore

it will never happen because if it aint regular old SM GW doesnt care... They push the SM down every newcomer's throat and give chaos the shaft everytime. when chaos gets a good or decent dex everyone who doesnt play them bitches about and then GW nerfs them


----------



## Achaylus72

TheSpore said:


> yeah but its main intention was for the daemon army and that damn prince had been laying around done for years they only just now decided to release it. If you look in one of the older fantasy chaos books they actually put a pic of it in there and never released it until now


First picture shown was in the new WH Fantasy Warrior of Chaos Armies Book released in May 2009 it appears in the two page spread on page 102-103.


----------



## Shandathe

Dear Chaos,

Stop whining about not getting anything new in 3 years and 7 months.

Love,
The Sisters of Battle and the Necrons.


----------



## TheSpore

Shandathe said:


> Dear Chaos,
> 
> Stop whining about not getting anything new in 3 years and 7 months.
> 
> Love,
> The Sisters of Battle and the Necrons.


Dear Sisters and Necrons

Bite Me

Love 
Chaos


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Dear Chaos,
> 
> Stop whining about not getting anything new in 3 years and 7 months.
> 
> Love,
> The Sisters of Battle and the Necrons.


QFT.

I play Chaos Marines and find some of the whining ridiculious. Yes the codex is bland, uninspired, has a limited number of builds and crippled by some bad rules. News flash! So are most of the old codices! 

I've owned/played Space Marines, Necrons, Sisters, Tyranids (4th ed), Chaos Marines, Tau and Orks since repicking up the game in 5th Edition (it's taken me a while to find armies I've really enjoyed the way they work on the table and their fluff) and if you look at the current codices from 4th they're limited, a little bland and overall, generally weaker when you compare them to the current codices. 

The existing 3rd Edition books are even more limited and due to the shifts in points cost are even more hamstrung to put up a strong game. So if you have a 4th Edition codex, how about laying off the complaints until the 3rd Edition books are updated? You weaken your own demand by doing it when there are other books that need it more.


----------



## Shandathe

TheSpore said:


> Dear Sisters and Necrons
> 
> Bite Me
> 
> Love
> Chaos


Dear Chaos,

Not before the third date. I'm just not that kind of girl.

Love,
the Deceiver.


----------



## Anarkitty

I'm sure the vast majority of this is complete BS, but I would be happily surprised if most of these turned out to be true.


----------



## LordWaffles

Shandathe said:


> Dear Chaos,
> 
> Not before the third date. I'm just not that kind of girl.
> 
> Love,
> the Deceiver.


Dear (not fat) Sisters of Battle,

I say, "SURPRISE!" on the first date.

Raperaperaperaperape,
Chaos Legions.

Also sisters and crons shouldn't bitch, sisters especially. You guys get units with things like special rules, flavor text, and neat abilities no other army can mimic.

We get chubsy wubsy smelly marines with t5 FnP and the shit tier edition of a dreadknight to lead us to derpvictory


----------



## Achaylus72

Shandathe said:


> Dear Chaos,
> 
> Not before the third date. I'm just not that kind of girl.
> 
> Love,
> the Deceiver.


Dear Sisters

That's not what i hear.

Love
Achaylus Ironstone, Daemon Prince


----------



## Shandathe

I'm highly amused that both return letters are addressed to the Sisters, given the way I signed that third date one... :grin:


----------



## coke123

TheSpore said:


> when chaos gets a good or decent dex everyone who doesnt play them bitches about and then GW nerfs them


Yeah, because people totally don't bitch about loyalist codices being overpowered, right? And before you point out that they don't nerf loyalist codices, nerfing is relative. Chaos was fine when they first came out, and are beginning to show their age. Guess what, so are the rest of the 4th/3rd edition codices. And really, Chaos have as many choices as other 4th edition codices (roughly speaking of course).

It works both ways. People will always complain about things they can't beat. I remember a time when I bitched about Necrons.


----------



## Zion

coke123 said:


> Yeah, because people totally don't bitch about loyalist codices being overpowered, right? And before you point out that they don't nerf loyalist codices, nerfing is relative. Chaos was fine when they first came out, and are beginning to show their age. Guess what, so are the rest of the 4th/3rd edition codices. And really, Chaos have as many choices as other 4th edition codices (roughly speaking of course).
> 
> It works both ways. People will always complain about things they can't beat. I remember a time when I bitched about Necrons.


I've got a friend who used to play back during 3rd Edition who still has nightmares about Monoliths (not literally of course, that'd be silly. But he's not fond of them) but now, they're not nearly as scary thanks to some of the things available on the table.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin

Monoliths are a bitch to kill, its because the rest of the army is so easy to take down now, that the monoliths are not as scary.


----------



## Zion

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Monoliths are a bitch to kill, its because the rest of the army is so easy to take down now, that the monoliths are not as scary.


Exactly. Older armies that are scary for what they used to do aren't because of what they can't.

The older the army, the worse this can get.


----------



## Zion

More from rideroftheerk in BoK's Groups section:



> persuaded my source to give me more (some would say: everything there is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), the following is copy and pasted from hour long icq sessions, so there might be some missing bits, but most of the time, nothing has changed. we all know what unit coherency is, these are not actual rule texts but answers for my questions about the rules
> I tried to arrange all fragments in proper order and corrected grammar, but most kudos go to my friend for being helpful while being annoyed of GW
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> As I am done with GW forever. I love the miniatures, I like the new rules (been pretty enthusiastic about it), but I hate the company, that makes them. If you knew what I know you would feel the same. GW doesn’t care for their customers one bit. The whole corporal culture is cynical as hell. The managers despise the hobby and all immatures who play it. There is a huge rift in the management and most of the executives that actually play the game have left or are leaving the company right now.
> 
> Layout
> 
> Pretty crisp and clean
> 
> on odd pages there is the normal rule text with examples, on even pages there are the usual diagrams and charts, and small boxes with definitions
> Lots of rules that were formerly explained within the text, are now only summarized in the text, the full rules are given in these boxes, you can read the rules text very fast without much detail, there are some boxes that have a name of a rule, but are empty otherwise. I guess that there should be page references to later pages, for example in the terrain rules, there is Torrent of Fire mentioned, the rule is explained much later (in a box), there is an empty box in the terrain section that reads Torrent of Fire however
> So you have both: clear rules veterans and easy reading for first-timers
> But it seems that there is not much space left for pictures, though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fundamentals:
> 
> characteristic tests as normal,
> if unit must make test, it is made by squad leader
> vehicles fail every test automatically if they don’t have the value
> test on ld is made with single D6 on halved value, vehicles pass these tests automatically
> Majority characteristic: characteristic-value with most wounds in unit, if draw, use the higher
> Keep track on:
> wounds
> movement distance
> morale condition
> everything else can be forgotten between actions
> 
> Saves:
> 
> 4 kind of changes: armour save, cover save, invulnerable save, Feel no Pain
> no model can ever make more than two saves or one re-rollable save
> normal models can only make one roll or one re-rollable roll
> Situation where two rolls are eligible:
> - one of the saves is FnP
> - model is character
> - model is bracing
> Feel no Pain (1-3): save on 5+,4+,3+, only negated by AP 1, 2 and wounds that don’t allow armour saves, the only save that every model and not only ICs may take in addition to another save
> 
> Actions
> 
> The rules make really clear what an unit can do and what not. There is an own chapter for the basic concepts. Every special rule has only to state: can do x, y, z and it is perfectly clear that the unit can still a, b and c
> Actions:
> - movement: movement in movement phase, sometimes only special types of movement are allowed: advance, surge, flat out, fleet; charge and disembark have to be rules out explicitly
> - consolidate moves: every other move, has to be mentioned explicitly
> - psychic powers
> - shooting
> - Reactions
> - residual actions: any other action, for example popping smoke
> unit is immobile: abbreviation for cannot move, react, make consolidation moves
> 
> Reactions
> 
> models can react every time the conditions are met
> - Going to Ground:
> who: non-vehicles, non-monstrous creatures
> when: unit is being shot at, before rolls are made
> instant effect: -
> lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed
> - Brace:
> who: tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures
> when: being shot at, before rolls are made
> instant effect: one weapon destroyed ignored, two saves for MC like IC
> lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed
> - Flying High:
> who: jet pack infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes
> when: being shot at
> instant effect: count as being flyer for shooting, opposing player can make 6” consolidation move with the unit
> lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed
> - Evade:
> who: skimmer, fast non-tanks, jetbikes, bikes, jet pack infantry, jump infantry
> when: unit is being rammed or tank shocked and nearly fails morale check
> instant effect: on 3+ can make 6” consolidation move, ignores ram if out of the way
> lasting effect: -
> - Return Fire:
> who: (disembarked) units with Overwatch
> when: unit is shot at the first time in the phase
> instant effect: unit can fire rapid fire and assault weapons with a single shot at attacking unit, range 12”, resolved simultaneously, opposing unit is fearless (2) and stubborn for this purpose
> lasting effect: -
> - Charge by chance:
> who: non-vehicles, walkers
> when: Trapped, tank shock
> instant effect: charge by chance
> lasting effect: -
> 
> Terrain:
> 
> there are two different things: to be in cover, to be in terrain
> every piece of terrain has a footprint, if an unit is this area or touches it, it is in terrain, being in terrain is important for movement and assaults
> to decide if a model is in cover, you use true line of sight, cover is usually used for shooting, though some weapons use terrain
> terrain is open, impassable, or has any number of the following attributes:
> - difficult terrain: unit can only advance through it, if a single model moves through
> - dangerous terrain:
> units that move through dangerous terrain must make a test
> non-vehicles make dangerous terrain test for every model that has actually moved through it at the end of the phase
> vehicles must designate a point where they enter the terrain before the movement, than make the test, if vehicle is stunned, immobilized or destroyed, move it to designated point in a straight line
> for every failed test, the unit gets a hit
> non-vehicles: failed on 1: auto wound on unit, allocated together as Torrent of Fire
> vehicles: roll depends on movement distance: advanced = failed on 1, surged = failed on 1-3, flat out = failed automatically, vehicle gets S8 hit against side armour
> walker only ever fail on 1
> non-vehicle units make only a single dangerous terrain test a turn, vehicles every time they enter a different dangerous terrain
> - leveled: must spend movement for vertical advancement, non-walker vehicles and bikes can’t move vertical in leveled terrain
> difficult and dangerous terrains are always ignored if the movement isn’t taking place in the own movement phase
> 
> Preparation and consolidation phase
> 
> These phases are collecting basin for all kinds of action that takes place before the movement or at the end of the turn. The player which turn it is may choose the order of these actions freely.
> preparation phase: psychic powers, placing reserves, rallying, joining/ leaving, claiming mission markers
> consolidation phase: rallying, consolidation moves, jet pack moves, joining/ leaving, embarking, killing multi-wounded units
> consolidation move: moves outside the movement phase (jet pack movement, embarking, joining/leaving, falling back, moves after combat, tank shock evasion …) and moves that are described as consolidation moves are consolidation moves
> cannot end in contact with enemy, ignores terrain even if performed in own movement phase, all units are relentless for this movement, can move even if fired heavy weapon, can fire heavy weapon afterwards, doesn’t affect unit speed for being shot at if not stated otherwise
> Abandon: If there is more than one model with less than its initial wounds in an unit in the consolidation phase, the owning player must remove all but one as casualty ( ID(3) ). Independent characters are ignored.
> 
> movement phase:
> 
> Units can stay stationary or move in different speeds. They can advance and use their normal movement or they can surge and double their movement distance. Some units can go flat out or fleet and triple their movement.
> Advance: normal movement: every action allowed
> Surge: double movement: close combat, consolidate moves, psychic powers, reactions, residual action allowed
> Flat out: movement: triple movement: only reactions allowed, use own columns on to hit chart
> Fleet movement: triple movement, can charge, count as moving against shooting, cannot forced surge
> If the unit goes through difficult terrain it can only advance. No unit can ever go flat out or fleet through terrain.
> Forced surge: Units can surge through terrain if they are allowed to go flat out outside terrain this turn. Tanks cannot force surge (except during a ram).
> If the unit fails an I-test, terrain is treated as dangerous terrain.
> During a charge, every unit can try to surge through. If the I-test is failed, the unit still can only advance. units, that have passed their I-test for the fleet movement, automatically pass this I-test.
> Can’t surge if there is another reason for the restriction to advance movement than terrain.
> Unit types:
> infantry: 6”
> beasts/cavalry: 8”, fleet (1)
> jump infantry: 8”, ignore terrain*
> jet pack infantry: 6”, ignore terrain*, 6” move in consolidation phase
> jetbikes: 10”, ignore terrain*, flat out
> (eldar jetbike: jetbike with Fleet (2) )
> bikes: 8”, flat out, cannot force surge
> vehicles: 6”
> fast vehicles: 6”, flat out
> fast skimmer: 8”, flat out
> walker: 6”, treat terrain like infantry
> * as long as they don’t start or end in terrain
> Fleet (1): infantry, beasts, monstrous creature, jump infantry, jet pack infantry: I-test, if successful, can perform fleet movement, can always advance during disembarkation;
> bikes and jetbikes: I-test successful: can make 6” move in consolidation phase
> Fleet (2)/Bounding Leap: as Fleet (1), no I-Test required
> Random movement: roll a D6: 1-2 unit moves as infantry, 3-4 unit moves as jump infantry but cannot ignore terrain, 5-6 unit moves as beast
> 
> Charging:
> 
> no model may enter 1” of enemy models unless it charges,
> the only difference between a charge and a normal movement is: models may enter 1” of enemy models.
> all other movement restrictions apply, unit must stay in coherency, are subject to terrain
> charging units can make a forced surge
> an unit can charge more than one unit, but must stay in coherency, cannot move closer than 1” to enemy units that are not charged
> The units in contact are now locked. If any model moved through terrain, the defending unit can claim to be in terrain in the assault phase, in the assault phase, both unit pile in before trading blows
> 
> Charge by chance:
> 
> sometimes units are forced to perform a charge in another phase than the movement phase, the charge by chance is a pile in move, as if the charging and defending unit were locked but have lost contact, the defending unit can make a pile in move afterwards (even if it is his phase, the defending player piles in last).
> the combat is fought in the next assault phase and no side counts as attacker or being in terrain, no side can use grenades, no further pile in moves occur before the fighting
> Movement distance is important for shooting, only the attempted movement in the movement phase counts (other movements do not count, consolidate moves don’t count, even a vehicle that has movement 1” can claim having moved flat out),
> can be ‘overridden’ by three events outside movement phase:
> fighting in close combat : stationary
> become immobile: stationary
> falling back: moving
> 
> Wounding:
> 
> To wound chart:
> wound everything at least on 6+
> Wound Allocation (cc and shooting):
> hit as normal, wound against majority
> mark dice that represent special weapons and attacks or roll separately
> 1. decide whether to use Torrent of Fire or not
> 2. target’s player allocate wounds to models, beginning with one chosen armour group, if every model in this group has a wound, start with another armour group and so on, if every model in the unit has a wound, start over
> —> multiple wounds: count for allocation as as many models as wounds remain
> 3. pick an unresolved armour group, determine which wounds are directed
> 4. directed wounds: roll saves for directed wounds, shooting player removes casualties
> 5. roll all remaining saves of this armour group, owning player removes casualties
> 6. goto 3
> 
> Directed wounds:
> 
> there are directed wounds in close combat and long-range combat, casualties from directed wounds are removed by owning player of the attacking unit
> Wounds cannot be directed if targeted unit has Shielded USR, Torrent of Fire is used, vehicle diverts its fire or non-vehicle, non-MC unit is in fire corridor
> Number of directed wounds: After allocating wounds to an armour group, it is determined if the how many and which wounds are directed as following:
> - every attack from an IC in close combat is a directed wound,
> - of the remaining wounds, every second wound, beginning with the first, from a Sniper weapon is directed.
> - Of the remaining wounds on-sniper wounds, every fifth wound is directed, owning player of the shooting unit decides which wounds are directed
> Torrent of Fire/Blows: if torrent of fire is used, the targeted unit is a single armour group, the owning player can choose one model, the whole unit has the same combination of armour saves
> During a Torrent of Fire, no wound is directed
> Armour group: number of model that share the same combination of saves, for example: 3+ armour save, Feel no Pain (1), no invulnerable save, 6+ cover save that is re-rollable on 1
> Shooting:
> for determining if a particular model in the unit can shoot, check range and line of sight from this model
> cover saves:
> fire corridor is measured from squad leader, to the two outermost models in the target unit, if 50% or more models are invisible or partial invisible due to cover or vehicles or monstrous creatures, the unit is in cover,
> non-vehicles/MC are invisible for determining cover saves, but if such an unit is in fire corridor, wounds cannot be directed
> if unit is covered mostly by fortifications or models are completely invisible: 4+ save
> if unit is covered mostly by vegetation: 6+ save
> if unit is covered mostly by vehicles or anything else: 5+ save
> To Hit chart:
> it is the same chart as the wound chart, but with seven columns from 0 till 6
> (evasion value in brackets, abbreviates for small chart)
> rows:
> buildings (0)
> stationary vehicles, MC, bikes (1)
> stationary infantry, jet pack infantry, jump infantry, beasts // moving vehicles, monstrous creatures (2)
> short distance // moving infantry, jet pack infantry (3)
> moving bikes, jump infantry, beasts // swarms // flat out vehicles (4)
> flat out bikes (5)
> flyers, beacons (some narrative missions use beacons) (6)
> columns:
> BS 1-10
> every column is: …. 6+ 6+ 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ 2+ 2+ 2+ …. but is shifted up or down
> I give you the BS value for every column that hits on 3+: 1 // 2 // 3 // 4 // 5 // 6 // 7
> if distance from squad leader to target is less than 12”, unit can always change column to short distance column
> if a model moves like a different unit type, the initial unit type is still used for the chart
> Assault weapon: bonus attack for second close combat weapon if unit has charged
> Pistols: model can use it as additional close combat weapon or use its Strength in close combat but gains no bonus for another ccw, if pistol is AP 1,2 or 3, attacks are Rending (2)
> Blast (Small) and Blast (Large):
> scatter as before
> don’t use line of sight for determining cover saves, if majority of unit is in terrain, models get cover saves
> marker has infinite height, only in leveled terrain it is two-dimensional
> multiple Barrage is used every time when there comes more than one blast marker of the same type from a single shooting unit
> Template: if there is a range given in a template weapon’s profile you can place the small end anywhere in this distance
> Sniper (1): always wounds on 3+, Pinning, every second wound from a Sniper weapon beginning with the first is a directed wound
> Sniper (2): always wounds on 3+, Rending (1), Pinning, every second wound from a Sniper weapon beginning with the first is a directed wound
> Pinning: must make a pinning morale check
> Tracer: treat every target as stationary
> Anti Air: treat targeted flyer as flat out vehicle
> Rending (1-3): 6,5+,4+ on to wound roll wound automatically and are AP2 or count as power weapon, D3 extra armour penetration
> Poison/Dissolving (X+): as before, for shooting and close combat
> Lance (1-3): treat AV as 13,12,11, no modifiers on damage chart ever
> Instant Death(1): caused by double strength and other effects, models without Eternal Warrior (1-3) loose all wounds
> Instant Death(2): models without Eternal Warrior (2-3) loose all wounds
> Instant Death(3): also called removed from play, models without Eternal Warrior (3) loose all wounds
> Eternal Warrior(1-3): Immune to Instant Death of same or lower level
> Assault Phase:
> Engaged model: a model that is in base to base contact with enemy model is called engaged, a model that is in contact with friendly engaged model is also called engaged, so if you have a long queue of models that are all in base to base contact and the first is in contact with enemy, alls are engaged
> Pile In Move: consolidation move, 6”, priorities:
> - must move as man models as possible in base contact with locked enemy unit
> - as many models as possible must end the move engaged with model of unit it is locked in close combat with,
> - rest of the model must move as near as possible to engaged models
> if it is not possible to bring a single model into contact, the distance is increased with 3” until one model is engaged
> At the end of the pile in move, every struggling, still unengaged IC is placed in contact with engaged model of enemy’s choosing.
> Pile in after charge:
> charging units make Pile In move, than the defending unit makes a Pile in Move
> 
> Attacking
> 
> Every engaged model can attack. If it is engaged with more than one unit, it can decide freely.
> WS majority is used
> IC are unit of their own in close combat
> Initiative order:
> Always strike first/last: unit strikes before I1 or after I10, is not affected by I modifiers, if unit always strikes first and last, it strikes in normal I order
> charging unit in terrain: strikes at I1
> Power fist: strikes always last
> Feint: models can attack in a lower initiative phase if they want
> Grenades: unchanged
> Resolving combat
> unchanged, but no more -1 for under half strength
> No retreat:
> Fearless units (or units that stay in combat even if they fail their morale check) make normal morale checks after loosing a combat, if failed, can decide nonetheless to stay in close combat, but every model in base to base contact may make a single attack against unit, if a model is in base to base contact with several Fearless units that failed their test, it can make one attack against each unit
> Sweeping Advance: normal, unmodified I of squad leader is used
> Pile in after combat: all locked units make Pile In moves, order is chosen by the player who’s turn it is, units that are no longer locked and not falling back, make a 3” consolidation move, the unit counts as being stationary
> 
> Special rules
> 
> distinction between special rules and universal special rules
> Some USR and other special or weapon rules have more than one level. If no level is given, the rule is treated as level 1. Only exception: Lance and Fearless are level 2 by default
> USR are always conferred to or from joined IC, other special rules not
> deployment rules and rules in codices are temporarily lost if not every model in the unit has it, if it is not explicitly stated otherwise
> all USR:
> Preferred Enemy: as before
> Tank Hunter: as before, but it only works against tanks
> Counter Attack: as before, negates Furious Charge
> Veiled(1): if unit targets veiled unit, must roll 3D6 x 3” over distance or forfeit shooting
> Veiled (2-3): 2D6” x 2
> Acute Senses/Night Vision(1-3): reroll Veiled roll of equal or lower level
> Furious Charge: as before
> Hit & Run: as before
> Overwatch: can react with returning fire
> Move through cover (1): I-Test to ignore terrain
> Move through cover (2): ignores terrain
> Sworn Brothers/Mindless Slaves: if squad leader is killed, every other model in unit can assume leadership
> Rage: must always at least advance and use full distance towards enemy (for example raged infantry must at least move 6”, if decide to surge, must move 12”), if shaken or embarked, ignores the rule
> Shielded: as long as one model with this rule remains in target unit, wounds cannot be directed wounds
> Slow and purposeful: Relentless; can only surge, if S-test is passed, if unit moves through terrain, it cannot force a surge, units with SaP and Fleet and/or Flat out have Relentless and Random movement instead, negates Preferred Enemy
> Shock Troop: always rolls a single D6” under 18” in a deep strike, a hit is a hit
> Skilled Rider/Driver/Ranger (1): reroll dangerous terrain tests
> Skilled Rider/Driver/Ranger (2): ignore dangerous terrain tests
> Stealth (1): +1 on cover save, must take Vanish reaction if unit takes a shooting reaction
> Stealth (2-3): +1,+2 on cover save; 6+,5+ in the open, must take Vanish reaction if unit takes a shooting reaction
> no USR:
> Relentless: always count as stationary for firing weapons
> Swarms: use the moving beasts (4) column in the chart regardless of movement or unit type, Blast and Template Weapons cause Instant Death (2) against swarms
> Vehicles:
> damage chart:
> only negative modifiers: -2 glancing, -1 any hit except AP1 and AP – against tanks, -2 AP – against tanks (AP 1 flat +1 gone), -3 hit by blast marker but hole not over vehicle and vehicle is not open-topped (no more halved S for blast markers)
> chart unchanged, but if vehicle blows up (6+ on chart), embarked troops and models in D6” get S3 AP – hit, if vehicle blows up embarked troops are Suppressed, if the vehicle is only wrecked they are fine
> if a flat out moving vehicle is immobilised (4) or wrecked (5) it blows up (6+) instead and embarked units are Pinned instead of Suppressed.
> close combat basically the same:
> no close combat resolution against non-walkers, but units can decide to break off and make a 3” consolidation move
> hit stationary vehicle automatically, advancing vehicle on 4+, at any other speed and skimmers on 6+
> Shooting: stationary: fire all weapons, advance: fire one, surge: no weapon
> fast as before: advance and fire all, surge and fire one
> every weapon can target different unit, when doing so, cannot cause directed wounds, even with Sniper weapons
> 
> Transport:
> 
> Fire point: can fire if vehicle has advanced or surged, but only 12” regardless of weapon type, embarked troops are relentless
> Embarking: 4” move in consolidation phase in contact towards access point, if squad leader reaches access point, unit is embarked. If not, no move is performed
> Disembarking: 4” in movement phase from any access point or base in case of flyers, consolidation move, counts as having moved the same distance category as vehicle, i.e. stationary, advance, surge; no charge
> cannot disembark if going flat out or if unit cannot move as fast as vehicle, i.e. cannot disembark at surge speed into cover, as you can only advance in cover
> if vehicle was stationary, unit can move normally from access point instead of disembarkation move, can charge
> fleeting units can advance from access point instead of making disembarkation move if vehicle advanced or surged
> 
> Trapped: if an enemy model is in base to base contact with access point of closed vehicle, access point cannot be used. If every access point is blocked, the unit cannot disembark. If the unit is forced to disembark because the vehicle is destroyed, the unit is placed on the wreck or in the crater. If the unit is forced to disembark for another reason it is destroyed. The units that were in base to base contact with the access points must make a charge by chance on the embarked unit immediately if it can react
> Flyers in skimmer or flyer mode and open-topped vehicles are not subject to this rule. If embarked units have to disembark place them as near as possible to the vehicle (wreck) or base
> 
> Multiple embarked units: must use different access points, if Trapped, choose access points, respective unit must charge
> 
> Skimmer: no more cover save for flat out movement
> 
> Squadron: must target the same unit,
> if consists of at least two vehicles, one is squadron commander
> 
> commander: as long as commanding vehicles exists, every immobile result in squadron on vehicle with weapons left is weapon destroyed instead
> rest unchanged, old allocation rules
> 
> Lumbering: can only surge if roll of 4+ on D6, if moved not faster than advance: can fire every turret mounted weapons in addition to normally allowed weapons
> 
> open topped:
> has no further effect than that units can disembark and fire everywhere, no charge advantage, no damage modifier
> 
> Tanks
> cannot force a surge, even if they are flat out, but can ram
> AP 1 and AP – only useful against tanks
> 
> Non-tanks:
> only non-tanks can force surge through terrain outside of ram
> fails I-test automatically, so gets a S8 on 4+
> 
> Ramming:
> now every tank shock is a ram, a ram is a straight movement with max speed (flat out or surge), if tank cannot go faster than advance, cannot ram
> tank can force surge through terrain, but still can’t go flat out through it
> only one turn before the movement is possible
> three things can happen: tank shock through unit, passing interfering terrain, ramming attack against vehicle or building or impassable terrain
> no disembarking or shooting from embarked unit or vehicle is possible after ramming
> 
> terrain:
> S8 against side on 4+ as normal
> Skimmer can choose to fly over terrain or go through. If go over, no tank shock or ram on units in terrain.
> 
> Tank shock:
> an unit under the vehicle’s path must make a morale check
> if it fails, the unit evades headless and is falling back
> If check is nearly failed, unit is rolled over
> If check passed but not nearly failed, can decide if nothing happens nothing happens as tanks passes by or unit is rolled over
> Rolled over: unit can attempt to stop vehicle (like death or glory)
> shaken units can’t try to stop
> if the tanks presses on, the unit gets D3 S5 hits with Rending (2)
> Ram against vehicle/building:
> both vehicles deal an automatic hit to the opposing vehicle
> the hit is resolved against the side in contact
> to calculate the S, take the AV in contact (if it is a tank, always take the front AV) and subtract a modifier
> -6 if ramming vehicle has surged
> -4 if ramming vehicle moved flat out
> impassable terrain and buildings have AV 14 for this purpose and can’t be damaged
> 
> Ram against walker
> walker can try to stop tank as if rolled over, if vehicle isn’t stopped, impact is resolved as ram, walker cannot charge by chance
> if tank would end movement on unit:
> may make a 6” special move in any direction but they must try to make place for the tank, if they would be still under the vehicle they may make another 3” move and another and another, until they are 1” away from the tank and in coherency, moves are treated like consolidation moves, but can performed in every situation even if unit is immobile or can’t perform any other action
> the evading unit can perform a charge by chance on the vehicle, if it can react, afterwards
> comes to halt, if it: touches vehicle, building, impassable terrain, 1” before an unit in close combat or is stunned, destroyed or immobilized, movement distance is reached
> 
> Artillery: vehicle, squadron, immobile, AV 10 /10 /10, BS as crew,
> no commander
> can place one crew counter per artillery, some can have additional crew members
> can remove counter to ignore a single crew shaken or stunned result
> can fight in cc like a walker, with WS, S, I as the crew, the number of attacks is the number of crew counters plus the number of artillery devices
> enemy attacks are resolved solely against the artillery
> 
> Flyers:
> - can decide every round in the preparation phase: count as fast skimmer or flyer, can decide upon arrival from reserves
> 
> flyer mode:
> - If flyer is in reserve, it is placed in harry reserve every time, even if it can’t outflank
> - Flyers from reserve are place in the the preparation phase on any table edge
> - unlike other vehicles, flyers cannot turn as they like
> - ignore all terrain, even impassable
> - up to 18” movement, no surge, no flat out, one turn anywhere during the movement up to 90 degrees
> - must move 12” in straight line in preparation phase, can turn up to 45 degree at the end of the movement,
> - must move 12” in straight line in consolidation phase, can turn up to 45 degree at the end of the movement, if reaches table edge or can’t be placed at the end of the turn, flyer is put back in harry reserve, cannot change into skimmer mode
> - Flyers can always fire every weapon at a single target, all weapons have AA rule
> - no (dis-)embarking, except special drops if unit has Aerial Drop special rule
> - if immobilized (4) or wrecked (5), place Blast (Large) marker in random direction in 3D6”, causes S5 (against side armour), place crater
> - Embarked troops are destroyed if flyer in flyer mode is wrecked or destroyed. If immobilized, unit is placed in crater, get S5 hit each, Suppressed
> - flyers have their own column in the to hit chart, Blast weapons don’t use their marker, use BS to hit, if marker targets another unit and touches flyer, hit is ignored
> - barrage and ordnance weapons can fire direct, but must re-roll hits, even if twin-linked, weapons that hit automatically can’t hit flyers, that includes shooting, rift and shock wave psychic powers that hit automatically
> - close combat: in contact with base, attacks hit on 6, any other unit than jump infantry, jetpack infantry and jetbikes must re-roll hits
> - cannot be rammed, base is treated like unit in close combat
> 
> Aerial Drop: flyer with this special rule can disembak units even if in flyer mode, in any phase embarked jump infantry and jet pack infantry can be placed via deep strike on a point, the flyer has moved over in this phase
> 
> IC: can roll two saves at the same time,
> All wounds from an IC in close combat are directed. count as separate unit in assault phase for dealing damage
> joining: 3” move in preparation or consolidation phase, assumes automatically squad leadership
> combat: if IC is part of an unit that is in close combat, but isn’t in base to base contact, it is moved into it by the shortest distance
> 
> Squad Leader:
> You must nominate one model of every unit to be the squad leader, if the unit entry doesn’t make clear which model it is in the first place.
> 
> Banner/Icon/Trophy: if squad leader is killed, standard- or icon bearer automatically becomes new squad leader.
> If one or more independent characters have joined the unit, one of them automatically becomes new squad leader. If the IC is killed, the normal leader takes over.
> Squad leaders can take two saves, all wounds from squad leader in close combat are directed
> only applies for initial squad leader.
> If the unit must take a characteristic test, use the profile of the Squad leader.
> used for all kinds of things
> Every time when something is measured from the squad leader, or he has to make a test for the unit, but the unit has no leader anymore, the opposing player can choose one model for this purpose
> 
> psychic powers:
> 
> Psychic test: morale check to use power, if morale check is failed, no more powers this turn from this psyker
> 
> perils: unchanged
> 
> power levels: number of psychic powers per player’s turn
> 
> power types:
> 
> - shooting power: count as firing a weapon, line of sight, BS roll or scatter if blast, fire point needed
> 
> - rift power: count as firing a weapon, true line of sight, no BS roll or scatter, only disembarked, targets suffer described effect, wounds from rift powers cause ID (2)
> 
> - modifying power: preparation phase, no line of sight or BS roll, no fire point needed, distance from hull, can only target own models inside transport; if target splits during the turn, the psyker’s player can decide on which part the power remains
> 
> - aura: preparation phase, psyker and joined unit are effected, if psyker leaves unit, power stays only with psyker, no BS roll, no fire point needed, transport unaffected, sustained power
> 
> - shock wave: count as firing a weapon, no line of sight, no BS roll needed, radius from base edge, must be disembarked, units in transports are unaffected
> 
> block: psyker in normal condition in 24” of other psyker can attempt to block psychic power, on 5+ blocked, on 1 perils of warp attack (unchanged), if equipped with similar wargear, psyker can decide which to use, only one block attempt per power
> 
> passive powers: no need for psychic test, not subject to block, don’t work if unit ‘can’t perform any action’
> 
> resonating powers: can stack
> 
> sustained powers: if psyker is shaken or engaged in close combat, power is blocked
> 
> rampant power: if psyker uses a rampant power, cannot use another power this turn, even with power level 2 or more
> 
> force weapon: as before, ID(2)
> 
> witchblades: as before, besides: force weapon with ID(1)
> 
> Unit conditions:
> 
> Morale checks: roll with 2D6 against squad leaders Ld as normal, but result of a failed or passed roll varies from situation to situation i.e. psychic test, pinning test, casualties, and are given for every situation. there is no more: “make a normal morale check”
> 
> In some situations a morale check can not only be failed or passed, but also be nearly failed. Nearly failed is if rolled higher than halved LD (rounding up) but below or equal to Ld, modifiers are applied before halving, but there are no more modifiers outside close combat
> five usual situations: lost close combat, heavy casualties, pinning, psychic test, rallying
> checks due to other fleeing unit is gone
> 
> Heavy casualties: made in consolidation phase, 25% casualties or more in a shooting phase: if failed: fall back
> 
> Pinning:
> if morale check fails, unit is Pinned, if nearly fails, unit is Suppressed
> 
> Lost close combat:
> unchanged, difference in combat resolution as modifier
> 
> - Suppressed:
> non-vehicle and non-MCs units cannot move flat out, fleet, force a surge, shoot, use psychic powers, react, if they fail a T-test, they cannot surge and charge
> vehicles and MC: can still react and fire a single weapon, cannot ram, (vehicles fail their T-test automatically), vehicles can only voluntarily become suppressed, embarked units in a suppressed vehicle cannot shoot from within
> infantry, beasts, unit with swarm get Stealth (1) or level of stealth one up up to 3
> if charged: looses suppressed status immediately
> if forced to make another morale check: morale check, if nearly failed or failed, unit is Pinned instead of Suppressed
> 
> - Pinned: cannot move, shoot, make consolidate moves, use psychic powers, react
> infantry, beasts, unit with swarm get Stealth (1) or level of stealth one up up to 3
> if charged: looses Pinned status immediately but cannot use defensive grenades and Counter Charge USR and gains no bonus from terrain
> if forced to make another morale check: morale check, if nearly failed or failed, unit is Falling Back instead of being pinned
> 
> - Falling Back:
> in moment of breaking unit immediately makes consolidation move towards own table edge with surge distance, count as having surged for purposes of shooting
> can act in subsequent turn as normal, but must attempt to move and simultaneously end their movement not closer to any enemy unit. If they cannot move in the movement phase because of this they are removed from play. Therefore they cannot stay stationary voluntarily or charge an enemy.
> They can perform consolidation moves, but cannot end nearer to any enemy unit. Unit cannot react.
> if charged: if charging model reaches the unit, unit is destroyed and charge is unsuccessful
> if forced to make another morale check: unit is destroyed, does not apply for rallying
> if reaches voluntarily or during their initial move the table edge: are removed from play but don’t count as destroyed
> - Shaken: abbreviation for Suppressed, Pinned, Falling Back
> - Immobile: abbreviation for cannot move, cannot react, cannot make consolidation moves
> 
> Rallying: suppressed and pinned units automatically recover in the consolidation phase of their next player’s turn
> A falling back unit with squad leader can make a morale check in the preparation phase if there is no enemy unit in 6”. If successful the unit can act normally. If failed, the unit is not destroyed. A falling back unit can embark into a vehicle an rallies immediately. The 3” movement can be towards enemies as long as it end inside the vehicle.
> 
> Fearless (1): if any morale check for rallying, casualties, tank shock or in close combat fails, the unit can decide to pass it anyway, Fearless units treat Pinned as Suppressed, treat Falling back as normal condition
> Fearless (2): as Fearless (1) but can decide to pass Pinning tests, too
> 
> Stubborn: always use the unmodified Ld for morale tests in close combat, Stubborn and Fearless (1-2) units must always choose to pass a morale check
> 
> Misc:
> swarm = model with swarm rule
> there is no special rule for allocating wounds against units with multiple wounds
> 
> Mission rules:
> 3 old types of placement, only one type of mission
> 
> Sequence:
> place terrain -> decide type of placement -> place mission markers -> decide first turn -> choose stratagems -> put units in reserve ->deploy remaining units -> deploy infiltrating units -> make scout moves
> 
> First turn:
> roll-off, looser bids a number of strategy points, opponent can raise or bail out, both player can raise the stake until someone bails out. Winner can decide to go first or last
> Player that goes first can decide table edge and has to deploy first
> The looser can spent the strategy points on stratagems
> 
> Placing mission markers: 1 marker is placed as near as possible to the middle of the table, 4 markers are placed in turn, starting with the player that goes first. marker has to be more than 12” away from table edges and other markers
> marker use a 60mm base and are impassable terrain, the center marker is flat and doesn’t block line of sight, the players can use every shape they want for the markers they place, as long as it doesn’t overlap the base significantly
> 
> Night Fighting: all units Veiled (1)
> 
> Scout: 12” move before the game after infiltrators are placed, outflank
> 
> Infiltrator: can be placed anywhere outside 18” of enemy models, count as veiled (2) as long as they make no voluntary action
> 
> Outflank: nominate side, on 3+ comes from there, on 1-2 from other side
> 
> Deep Strike: mishab table as before, place squad leader,
> if in 6” of enemy: 3D6” scatter, use arrow on hit symbol, if in 12”: 2D6” hit is hit, in 18”: 1D6”, outside 18”: no scatter
> may only advance on turn of arrival, even with fleet or flat out, count always as (advance) moving, charge allowed
> 
> Reserves: unit(s), their transport and joined IC count as one unit for all reserve related purposes, but the unit has to start inside the transport and IC has to be in the unit, units can use special deployment options of the vehicle but not vice versa,
> 1. nominate any number of outflanking units to harry, place them near the table, facing the enemy’s table edge
> 2. flank guard: nominate half (rounding down) of the remaining units to arrive in turn 2, place them near the table, facing the small table edge
> 3. rear guard: the rest arrives in turn 3, place them near the table, facing the own table edge
> In the preparation phase
> when you put an unit in reserve you have to decide upon a deployment method
> In preparation phase:
> flank guard: from turn 2 on: arrives on 2+
> rear guard: arrives in turn 2 on 1, and from turn 3 on on 2+
> harrying units arrive on 4+ from turn 2 on
> all remaining reserves are arriving on turn 6
> for every harrying unit that is in reserve in the enemy’s preparation phase, you can make the enemy reroll one reserve roll
> units from reserves are placed in the preparation phase in base to base contact with table edge (if not deep striking), if there is not enough space, placed back in reserves
> 
> Victory Points
> 
> both armies can collect victory points throughout the game, there are two ways: claim a kill, claim a mission marker at the end of the game turn:
> 
> Claim Kill:
> 
> every destroyed tank (not vehicle), walker, monstrous creature or independent character is a kill. Every squad leader that is killed is a kill (not counting standards, etc.)
> Every kills gives one victory point
> 
> Claim Marker:
> 
> You check in your own preparation phase if you hold or control a marker. Opponent checks in his preparation phase.
> You control a marker, if there is one of your scoring units in 3” of the marker and no enemy scoring unit. If you control a marker you get 3 victory points.
> You hold a marker, if you don’t control it, there is one of your non-scoring non-vehicle units in 3” and no enemy unit. If you hold a marker you get 2 victory points.
> You start in the preparation phase of the second going player in the second game turn. The player that goes first checks a last time at the end of the game as there is no preparation phase in turn 7.
> Vehicles and shaken units are completely ignored. Embarked units only count if transport is open-topped.
> 
> Game length:
> 
> 6 turns
> 
> Stratagems:
> 
> 1 can place automatic turret
> immobile BS 3 10/10/10
> is equipped with twin-linked weapon
> can choose one weapon, that an infantry model from FOC Troop can be equipped with
> 1 the first or last game turn is night fighting
> 1 can re-roll one outflanking roll and one deep striking scatter roll per turn
> 1 can block every psychic power on 6+ even if no psyker in 24”, psykers block on 4+
> 1 steal the initiative: if going second, roll at the start of the game a D6, on 6 you go first
> 1 own units use Ld 10 for pinning morale checks
> 2 one unit for every full 1500 points can get one of the following USR: Tank Hunter, Shielded, Fearless (1), Preferred Enemy, Relentless
> 2 decide during deployment if rear or flank guard: roll a single reserve roll for all units in chosen guard
> 2 Mine Field: makes one piece of terrain for every full 750 points dangerous
> 2 units of both forces that are holding or controlling mission marker have Overwatch USR
> 3 can make one non-vehicle unit upon deployment scoring
> 3 enemy deep striking units must subtract 6” from distance to enemy to see how they scatter
> 2 all weapons of one unit for every full 750 points have the Anti Air and Tracer rule
> 4 you can switch units from rear guard to flank guard until you roll the first reserve roll,
> every unit can decide upon arrival which deployment method it uses: deep strike, normal reserve or outflank,
> one unit for every full 1500 points per turn can change its deployment method to one it cannot normally be deployed with
> 4 All own units count as having surged or moved flat out before the game.
> 4 all own units are equipped with offensive grenades
> 6 all enemy units count as being in terrain in their first turn
> 6 all own units count as Veiled (2) in turn one
> 6 enemy rear guard and flank guard units roll like harrying units for their arrival
> 12 Pitch black: Night fighting with Veil (2) during the whole game
> 12 own units: weapons fired in 6” range count as twin-linked
> 12 enemy must re-roll successful cover saves
> every stratagem can only be taken one time,
> for every unspent point, once per game one roll may be re-roll, this cannot be the steal the iniative roll
> 
> Narratives rules:
> 
> - optional rules: apocalyptic weapons, super heavy vehicles (not much changed, but rules for damaged super heavies for small games), formations
> - new deployment types, mostly taken from mission expansion
> - new victory conditions
> - rules for games with predetermined strategy points for both players
> - three sets of additional stratagems: fortifications, deployment options, reinforced buildings
> - special terrain: ruins, streets, hell rivers, deathworld mangroves, warp gate, sand pit, orbital landing platform, habitat block
> - highly modular: you can mix deployment rule, victory condition, optional rules, available stratagem sets, number of strategy points to spent and special terrain: voila, you have your own mission


EDIT: Definitely have your salt licks on standby. I obviously can't verify any of this, but there it is.


----------



## The Sullen One

*Calm Down Dear*



Shandathe said:


> Dear Chaos,
> 
> Stop whining about not getting anything new in 3 years and 7 months.
> 
> Love,
> The Sisters of Battle and the Necrons.





TheSpore said:


> Dear Sisters and Necrons
> 
> Bite Me
> 
> Love
> Chaos







@Zion: Good find mate, have got salt convoys on standby with trucks ready to deploy en masse if need be. Forecast says heavy chance of codswallop with utter tripe in some places.


----------



## Synack

I was looking through warseer and ghost21, who had very accurate GK rumours WAY before most other rumours were out, has pretty much confirmed this stuff. I would start paying attention to these rumours.


----------



## Zion

Synack said:


> I was looking through warseer and ghost21, who had very accurate GK rumours WAY before most other rumours were out, has pretty much confirmed this stuff. I would start paying attention to these rumours.


This isn't ghost21 from Warseer though, this is ridetheerk from Blood of Kittens (not one of the authors, just a guy who is posting things to the rumor group), and isn't getting this stuff first hand like ghost21, but second hand from a friend.

So yeah, keep that salt handy.


----------



## InquisitorTidusSolomon

Even the obscene amount of salt in the average McDonalds meal isn't enough to deal with this.

I'm skeptical for a few reasons:
1: GW would NEVER allow this much of this kind of information to get out at once. If it were stuff from a Codex release, then _maybe_, but there is no way in hell that this much stuff about the new edition would get out.

2: GW's love of the halflings (read: little Timmy and little Billy) will, IMO, only lead to them simplifying the game mechanics. I just can't see them overhauling 40k this much, at the risk of making it too much of a head-scratcher for the wee ones to learn. There's just too many changes to throw into one edition of the game that's their biggest moneymaker, when most of the money comes from the little snots who go in with their mums and whine until they get that next shiny Space Marine box.

3: I don't doubt that there's a few members of the Dev Team who aren't all warm and cuddly with the higher-ups and bean-counters at GW, but the supposed account by that employee reeks too much of what a whining, GW-hating troll would think a disgruntled employee would say about these rules, or rather what some of us would expect to hear from such a staff member. There's too many holes to poke in the claim. I'm very close with the staffers at my local GW (hell, the manager comes over to my house for the Super Bowl every year, and we all go out drinking on each others' birthdays), and I can say with all certainty that they *DON'T* hate the hobby. They don't even hate the toddlers who come into the store. And from what I've seen, heard, and been told by the staffers, who are some of my closest friends, I don't understand where this supposed managerial rift is coming from.

4: I'm sorry, but if that's how he corrects grammar, he should be flogged.
/rant

*tl;dnr: I call shenanigans. Don't forget to keep your daily truckload of salt at the ready, children.*


----------



## Synack

Zion said:


> This isn't ghost21 from Warseer though, this is ridetheerk from Blood of Kittens (not one of the authors, just a guy who is posting things to the rumor group), and isn't getting this stuff first hand like ghost21, but second hand from a friend.
> 
> So yeah, keep that salt handy.


But ghost is saying that the info is pretty accurate


----------



## Zion

InquisitorTidusSolomon said:


> Even the obscene amount of salt in the average McDonalds meal isn't enough to deal with this.
> 
> I'm skeptical for a few reasons:
> 1: GW would NEVER allow this much of this kind of information to get out at once. If it were stuff from a Codex release, then _maybe_, but there is no way in hell that this much stuff about the new edition would get out.
> 
> 2: GW's love of the halflings (read: little Timmy and little Billy) will, IMO, only lead to them simplifying the game mechanics. I just can't see them overhauling 40k this much, at the risk of making it too much of a head-scratcher for the wee ones to learn. There's just too many changes to throw into one edition of the game that's their biggest moneymaker, when most of the money comes from the little snots who go in with their mums and whine until they get that next shiny Space Marine box.
> 
> 3: I don't doubt that there's a few members of the Dev Team who aren't all warm and cuddly with the higher-ups and bean-counters at GW, but the supposed account by that employee reeks too much of what a whining, GW-hating troll would think a disgruntled employee would say about these rules, or rather what some of us would expect to hear from such a staff member. There's too many holes to poke in the claim. I'm very close with the staffers at my local GW (hell, the manager comes over to my house for the Super Bowl every year, and we all go out drinking on each others' birthdays), and I can say with all certainty that they *DON'T* hate the hobby. They don't even hate the toddlers who come into the store. And from what I've seen, heard, and been told by the staffers, who are some of my closest friends, I don't understand where this supposed managerial rift is coming from.
> 
> 4: I'm sorry, but if that's how he corrects grammar, he should be flogged.
> /rant
> 
> *tl;dnr: I call shenanigans. Don't forget to keep your daily truckload of salt at the ready, children.*



1: Overall I agree, but GW can't monitor the entire internet all the time either. The possibility of this being leaked out is low, but over ICQ (as stated by ridetheerk) is one way it could be done without GW being able to really prevent it. Though GW has legal resources to deal with it from here on out if it is true.

2: GW's development team seeks to make the game more intuitive so that it's easier to play and is more fun (as it was said in GW's interview podcasts regarding the changes going into 5th Edition (seriously, why hasn't there been more of these?)). Obviously what makes the final cut is influenced by sales, but they seek to make the game more fun first, and it that means an overhaul of the system, they'll do it.

THAT said, I agree that this many changes and tweaks seem a bit much for GW's usual way of doing things, but on the other hand the changes between 7th and 8th Edition Fantasy were pretty drastic in some places too. So it's not like they haven't done releases with large sets of rule shifts before.

3:The supposed mangerial rift isn't between the stores and their employees or customers but between the top brass and the just about everyone else (assuming I read that right).

4: I have a feeling that English is not this guy's first language. That or he's the latest product of American education.



Synack said:


> But ghost is saying that the info is pretty accurate


Huh, I guess I missed that. Haven't seen a lot of Ghost21 since the Sisters WD-Dex confirmation, but then again I don't do a lot on Warseer (too many people reenacting Chicken Little over every rumor, release and article about Jervis' favorite colored dice for my taste). That aside I know TastyTaste said that some of the information from the original leak was accurate but not all of it. He hasn't posted anything about the new stuff yet.


----------



## Shandathe

Somebody spent WAAAAAY too much time typing, whether they're making shit up or actually writing down what they remember...


----------



## OIIIIIIO

One of the things that caught my eye was in the USR. Counterattack negates Furious Charge ... WTF?!? As if the Space Wolves needed anymore help. This is one that I hope is wrong, as it will really make them supreme seeing as that most of the units in C:SW have counterattack (or so it seems to me, I have only ever played against them).


----------



## Masked Jackal

Salt's getting more and more in demand here. I will admit I didn't read much though. Jeez that's a lot.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Somebody spent WAAAAAY too much time typing, whether they're making shit up or actually writing down what they remember...


It wasn't me! I used copy and paste! :biggrin:



Masked Jackal said:


> Salt's getting more and more in demand here. I will admit I didn't read much though. Jeez that's a lot.


True that. I read it and I think I understood most of it (some of that grammer made my brain leak out of my ears) but I'm going to ignore it for the most part. It's completely possible all of this is from a play test version of the dex from the Emperor knows how long ago and they're trying to hammer out all the kinks.

Or it's complete Squat-dung and none of it's true.

OR it's completely accurate and I'll need a cheat sheet just to play the game. 

Either way it's not worth my time to stress over at the moment. I'm FAAAAAR to busy stressing over what'll be coming out in White Dwarf 380 for that.


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> I'm FAAAAAR to busy stressing over what'll be coming out in White Dwarf 380 for that.


You waiting for GW's announcement of... wait. Wait. Too easy. :victory:

Leaving that aside for a second, I was told today with strange certainty that CSM would be the first 6th Edition 'dex... Despite my firm insistence it'd be Space Marines, most likely of the Ultra variation though possibly Black Templars.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> You waiting for GW's announcement of... wait. Wait. Too easy. :victory:
> 
> Leaving that aside for a second, I was told today with strange certainty that CSM would be the first 6th Edition 'dex... Despite my firm insistence it'd be Space Marines, most likely of the Ultra variation though possibly Black Templars.


380 is supposed to be the second half of the codex. Depending on what is put into 379 exactly, 380 will be needed to play the new dex until the PDF eventually (maybe?) comes out.


----------



## Doelago

Wow, this is starting to sound as reliable as if GW would not make a new C:SM during 6th edition.


----------



## yanlou

Whats jumped out at me about these so called rules i doubt GW would change is the Phases, there fine as they are and make sense, why change them now when there well established so i call bull! on that one.

USR tiers is something else that stupid, USR rules from what i understand work fine and are relatively simple (which GW want), so having tiers would make it far more complicated. Bull!

I can understand cover saves been changed, so i can expect that to happen in next the edition.

These so called "Reactions" seem pointless and again making it over complicated so again i call bull! on this one, so everything related to "Reactions" seems like bull, i assume GW would make some change to terrain but nothing that makes it over complicated.

I doubt the "To Wound Chart" will change.
Perhaps allocation of wounds may change.

I can see some sort of flyers rule, but nothing over powered.

From what iv read most of the Supposed new rules seem to revolve around these so called "Reactions" which way over complicate the rules.



> Squad Leader:
> You must nominate one model of every unit to be the squad leader, if the unit entry doesn’t make clear which model it is in the first place.


This definitely sounds like utter bull, why would you need to nominate a squad leader when you pay for them in your dex, so there already in the squad.

Sorry to say but 98% of this utter rubbish and most sounds like wishful thinking if not totally made up for the sake of it.

Granted there will be changes but nothing like them, so ill believe it when i see it, and i doubt it will be seen, the only thing that really excites me is the possibility of Codex: Traitor Legions, but considering most of the tripe thats been posted its making that even hard to believe.


----------



## tristanvdputten

ok guys if you want my opinion:

First GW does what she likes. one way or another.

second if it is true, you all should swallow it because it also happend with fantasy 8th.
And I hear nobody about that anymore.

and because it are still rumours take it or leave it we wont know for sure until.
GW or WD says so.


----------



## gen.ahab

At least 50% of this is such a huge clump of bullshit...... The amount of press this is getting is fucking hilarious.


----------



## Shandathe

And the remainder seems to largely consist of either wishlisting or logical progression of 5th. As fabrications go, it's not a very convincing one. Still, it's entertaining to speculate.


----------



## Synack

Tbh, I like the sound of the rules. There is loads of stuff in there that seems to shift the focus from 40k being shooting, to 40k being combat, which is good.

When I look at all this stuff and think of my Nids and the rules that don't make sense, I see it starting to make sense.

For instance, take the deep striking rule for the Trygons where they create a tunnel and others can come in reserve. That rule is useless unless you can actually control to some degree that the trygons come in first. Well it seems in these 6th ed leaked rules you can.

Fleet becomes more important again. In 5th it was crap, cause all armies could run, so armies with fleet that used to be fast, were just as fast as other armies. But with fleet the way it is now, I see a 24" charge range ravs and 18" charge range trygons, all who ignore the effects of terrain since they have move through cover.

Rending becomes good again, because I can nominate every 5th wound. My termagaunts negate furious charge with their counter attack from the Tervi's. Deep striking and being able to charge is huge too. Depending how the phases work and what FAQ/Errata changes they make, I could see the mawloc evening being useful, Deep strike in with template, charge into combat, hit and run out and then dissapear back into reserve.

I'm still applying lots of salt, but with Ghost21 backing what was said, I'm beginning to pay more attention to it, and trying to line it up with all the new codex rules and things that don't make sense.

Things that don't make sense to me so far, is FnP. If a model that isn't a IC can't take more than 1 save, then FnP on models with a decent armour save is useless, like BA for instance. Why would someone ever opt to take a 4+ FnP over a 3+ armour.


----------



## Katie Drake

Synack said:


> Things that don't make sense to me so far, is FnP. If a model that isn't a IC can't take more than 1 save, then FnP on models with a decent armour save is useless, like BA for instance. Why would someone ever opt to take a 4+ FnP over a 3+ armour.


I thought FNP was the exception to the rule, but I could be wrong.

I guess FNP could be useful in cases where you're hit by AP3 weapons that aren't high enough S to cause instant death like Tau Ion Cannons (not that you see many S7 AP3 weapons in the game).

Either way though, I still think these rumors are crap. Time will tell.


----------



## KhainiteAssassin

enough bullshit from GW comes out and we will all be playing PP warmahordes, permanently.


----------



## nogginthenog

I doubt the last one is anything but made up.

My reason?

There is a section called 'pile in'

Its cut and paste from the warpath alpha rules, didnt even change the name.


----------



## Cypher871

Phew, reading through 15 pages of this in one go made my head ache...spending too much time in the Sprue database. :laugh:

It seems to me that much of the 'rumour' is not so much a departing from the rules as a return to 2nd Edition. For example, the so-called complicated shooting rules...in older editions you always had ballistic modifiers for firing at fast moving stuff.

Personally, I hate the way GW have dumbed the game down over the years to cater to kids. I think a two tier approach is called for - a simplified version of the game for the youngsters and an advanced version for the none-moronic...pick your poison!

One of the things that was mentioned in a long-ass post on page 13 was something about the layout of the rulebook. All my rulebooks from 3rd onward have highlighted text in them where I omit all the superfluous waffle and nicey nicey shite. That way when I need to look something up I don't waste half my life trying to get to the meat of a rule...it would be nice if GW adopted this approach from the off...it would make the rules a damn site thinner too! :laugh:

As to the box sets, as I have suggested in the past, they ought to go with 5 different starter sets that pair up the main armies available. That way you have a better choice of starting an army you are interested in rather than just the bog-standard Marines and Orks! :boredom:


----------



## Zion

More from ridetheerk:



> my source stubbornly refuses to give me all interim codex erratas he was given. he fears that this can be used to trace him. But I convinced him that probably everyone involved has at least the space marine errata.
> Here we go:
> 
> Codex Space Marines
> p.51
> And they Shall know Fear: Sworn Brothers, pass rally morale check automatically, if caught in sweeping advance, fights on and gets No Retreat hits
> 
> p.53
> Chapter Banner: counts as as banner for assuming leadership, units in 12” re-roll morale checks for heavy casualties, lost close combat, tank shock and pinning , rest unchanged
> 
> p.55
> Nartheticum: Feel no Pain (1)
> Company Banner: counts as as banner for assuming leadership, units in 12” re-roll morale checks for heavy casualties, lost close combat, tank shock and pinning , rest unchanged
> 
> p. 56
> Librarians have power level 1, Epistolaries 2
> 
> p. 57
> Smite: shooting power
> The Avengers: shooting power
> Quickening: modifying power, must target himself, used in preparation phase
> Null Zone: shock wave
> Might of Titans: modifying power, used at start of assault phase
> Gate of infinity: modifying power, used in movement phase
> Vortex of Doom: Rift power
> 
> p.58
> Honour of the Chapter: Fearless (2) and Stubborn
> 
> p. 62
> Heroic Intervention: can surge on turn of arrival, but not shoot
> 
> p. 65
> Move Through Cover: Move Through Cover (2)
> 
> p. 66
> Move Through Cover: Move Through Cover (1)
> Sniper Rifle: Sniper (1)
> 
> p. 69
> Drop Pod Assault: Remaining drop pods are divided between rear guard, flank guard, cannot harry. Disembarking unit cannot assault even if unit has fleet.
> 
> p. 73
> Thunderfire Gun: 1 crew marker, make additional S8, power weapon attack at I 1
> Tremor: unit already in cover cannot force a surge
> 
> p. 75:
> Cerberus Launcher: additionally units disembarking from moving vehicle have Fleet
> 
> p. 81
> Power of the machine spirit: can fire one more weapon, advanced rules: can still cause directed wounds if diverting fire
> Assault vehicle: units disembarking from moving vehicle have Fleet
> 
> p. 84
> God of War: Fearless (2) for every unit with combat tactics
> 
> p. 85
> Surprise Attack: no effect without advanced rules in play
> Rites of Battle: re-roll any failed morale check for pinning, heavy casualties, tank shock or lost close combat
> Talassarian Tempest Blade: Instant Death (1)
> Mantle of Suzerain: Fell no Pain (1)
> 
> p. 86
> Hood of Hellfire: power level 3
> 
> p. 87
> Feel no Pain: Feel no Pain (1)
> 
> p. 88
> Eye of Vengeance: controlling player can choose, to which armour group Telion’s wounds go
> Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Rending (1)
> 
> p. 92
> Chapter Tactics: Fleet (1), when disembarked from moving vehicle unit can advance, but not charge (except from Land raider and Land Speeder Storm)
> The Raven’s Talons: Rending(1)
> 
> p. 94
> Moondrakkan: can charged even if moves flat out
> Moonfang: ID (1)
> 
> p. 95
> Fearless: Fearless (2) and Stubborn
> 
> p.97
> Assault Cannon: Rending (1)
> 
> p. 98
> Master-crafted Weapons: has master-crafted rule
> 
> p. 100
> Camo Cloaks: Stealth (1)
> 
> p.103
> Dozer Blades: can re-roll dangerous terrain tests
> 
> p.129-143
> Chapter Champion, Company Champion and Sergeants are squad leaders, Servitor units and attack bike squadrons can nominate one model as squad leader
> I have another Q&A session this afternoon. I can probably relay questions. At least I can try. So shoot away.


Again I can't verify or refute any of these rumors, I'm just releasing information as I find it.


----------



## Shandathe

> p.51 And they Shall know Fear:


Heh.That'd be an interesting change.


----------



## tristanvdputten

how about what size force could we expect in the starter boxes?


----------



## Zion

I missed this when I spotted that update. The following is an extension to the second post he made:



> some more:
> - narrative rule with strategy points: can agree with other player to with fix stock of strategy points, both players can spend them, then the looser of the bidding can use his strategy points on top
> - damaged super heavies are cheaper, have only one structure point left, give 5 victory points
> - pistols can make only a single attack in cc
> - new close combat weapon: colossal power weapon: 2D6 against vehicles, models with S5 attack in I-order, models with lesser attack last. dreadnoughts double strength, dreadnought cc is colossal weapon
> - IC can still be picked in cc, that seems to be huge, as in most meeles their is a wall of models that are in base to base contact
> - movement is really fast now, every unit behaves almost the same, but you need marker for movement distances
> - only very tiny paragraphs for unit types
> - favorite tactic: charging unit with large ork mob, attack with almost every model, than shoot the hell out of another unit


No word on what's in the box set(s), just the rules.


----------



## Cypher871

A modicum of self control please guys.


----------



## MadCowCrazy

Just a tiny bit more niceties in here please :crazy:


----------



## yanlou

Again with the crap of nominating squad leaders, youve already paid for them so there no need to nominate, again this all sounds like crap and sounds even more like someone pretending to be a GW employee.

The fact of the matter is, these rumored new rules are all based around "reactions" and "usr tiers" and the more that comes out the more it seems like wish listing. 

If anything these rumors are more likely GW trying to keep of balance.


----------



## exsulis

Found this in the BoLS lounge, and take it for what it is. 

_persuaded my source to give me more (some would say: everything there is ), the following is copy and pasted from hour long icq sessions, so there might be some missing bits, but most of the time, nothing has changed. we all know what unit coherency is, these are not actual rule texts but answers for my questions about the rules
I tried to arrange all fragments in proper order and corrected grammar, but most kudos go to my friend for being helpful while being annoyed of GW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I am done with GW forever. I love the miniatures, I like the new rules (been pretty enthusiastic about it), but I hate the company, that makes them. If you knew what I know you would feel the same. GW doesn’t care for their customers one bit. The whole corporal culture is cynical as hell. The managers despise the hobby and all immatures who play it. There is a huge rift in the management and most of the executives that actually play the game have left or are leaving the company right now.

Layout
Pretty crisp and clean
on odd pages there is the normal rule text with examples, on even pages there are the usual diagrams and charts, and small boxes with definitions
Lots of rules that were formerly explained within the text, are now only summarized in the text, the full rules are given in these boxes, you can read the rules text very fast without much detail, there are some boxes that have a name of a rule, but are empty otherwise. I guess that there should be page references to later pages, for example in the terrain rules, there is Torrent of Fire mentioned, the rule is explained much later (in a box), there is an empty box in the terrain section that reads Torrent of Fire however
So you have both: clear rules veterans and easy reading for first-timers
But it seems that there is not much space left for pictures, though

Fundamentals:
characteristic tests as normal,
if unit must make test, it is made by squad leader
vehicles fail every test automatically if they don’t have the value
test on ld is made with single D6 on halved value, vehicles pass these tests automatically
Majority characteristic: characteristic-value with most wounds in unit, if draw, use the higher

Keep track on:
wounds
movement distance
morale condition
everything else can be forgotten between actions

Saves:
4 kind of changes: armour save, cover save, invulnerable save, Feel no Pain
no model can ever make more than two saves or one re-rollable save
normal models can only make one roll or one re-rollable roll
Situation where two rolls are eligible:
- one of the saves is FnP
- model is character
- model is bracing

Feel no Pain (1-3): save on 5+,4+,3+, only negated by AP 1, 2 and wounds that don’t allow armour saves, the only save that every model and not only ICs may take in addition to another save

Actions
The rules make really clear what an unit can do and what not. There is an own chapter for the basic concepts. Every special rule has only to state: can do x, y, z and it is perfectly clear that the unit can still a, b and c
Actions:
- movement: movement in movement phase, sometimes only special types of movement are allowed: advance, surge, flat out, fleet; charge and disembark have to be rules out explicitly
- consolidate moves: every other move, has to be mentioned explicitly
- psychic powers
- shooting
- Reactions
- residual actions: any other action, for example popping smoke
unit is immobile: abbreviation for cannot move, react, make consolidation moves

Reactions
models can react every time the conditions are met

- Going to Ground:
who: non-vehicles, non-monstrous creatures
when: unit is being shot at, before rolls are made
instant effect: -
lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed

- Brace:
who: tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures
when: being shot at, before rolls are made
instant effect: one weapon destroyed ignored, two saves for MC like IC
lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed

- Flying High:
who: jet pack infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes
when: being shot at
instant effect: count as being flyer for shooting, opposing player can make 6” consolidation move with the unit
lasting effect: Suppressed, if not already Suppressed

- Evade:
who: skimmer, fast non-tanks, jetbikes, bikes, jet pack infantry, jump infantry
when: unit is being rammed or tank shocked and nearly fails morale check
instant effect: on 3+ can make 6” consolidation move, ignores ram if out of the way
lasting effect: -

- Return Fire:
who: (disembarked) units with Overwatch
when: unit is shot at the first time in the phase
instant effect: unit can fire rapid fire and assault weapons with a single shot at attacking unit, range 12”, resolved simultaneously, opposing unit is fearless (2) and stubborn for this purpose
lasting effect: -

- Charge by chance:
who: non-vehicles, walkers
when: Trapped, tank shock
instant effect: charge by chance
lasting effect: -

Terrain:
there are two different things: to be in cover, to be in terrain
every piece of terrain has a footprint, if an unit is this area or touches it, it is in terrain, being in terrain is important for movement and assaults
to decide if a model is in cover, you use true line of sight, cover is usually used for shooting, though some weapons use terrain

terrain is open, impassable, or has any number of the following attributes:
- difficult terrain: unit can only advance through it, if a single model moves through
- dangerous terrain:
units that move through dangerous terrain must make a test
non-vehicles make dangerous terrain test for every model that has actually moved through it at the end of the phase
vehicles must designate a point where they enter the terrain before the movement, than make the test, if vehicle is stunned, immobilized or destroyed, move it to designated point in a straight line
for every failed test, the unit gets a hit
non-vehicles: failed on 1: auto wound on unit, allocated together as Torrent of Fire
vehicles: roll depends on movement distance: advanced = failed on 1, surged = failed on 1-3, flat out = failed automatically, vehicle gets S8 hit against side armour
walker only ever fail on 1
non-vehicle units make only a single dangerous terrain test a turn, vehicles every time they enter a different dangerous terrain
- leveled: must spend movement for vertical advancement, non-walker vehicles and bikes can’t move vertical in leveled terrain

difficult and dangerous terrains are always ignored if the movement isn’t taking place in the own movement phase

Preparation and consolidation phase
These phases are collecting basin for all kinds of action that takes place before the movement or at the end of the turn. The player which turn it is may choose the order of these actions freely.

preparation phase: psychic powers, placing reserves, rallying, joining/ leaving, claiming mission markers

consolidation phase: rallying, consolidation moves, jet pack moves, joining/ leaving, embarking, killing multi-wounded units

consolidation move: moves outside the movement phase (jet pack movement, embarking, joining/leaving, falling back, moves after combat, tank shock evasion …) and moves that are described as consolidation moves are consolidation moves
cannot end in contact with enemy, ignores terrain even if performed in own movement phase, all units are relentless for this movement, can move even if fired heavy weapon, can fire heavy weapon afterwards, doesn’t affect unit speed for being shot at if not stated otherwise

Abandon: If there is more than one model with less than its initial wounds in an unit in the consolidation phase, the owning player must remove all but one as casualty ( ID(3) ). Independent characters are ignored.

movement phase:
Units can stay stationary or move in different speeds. They can advance and use their normal movement or they can surge and double their movement distance. Some units can go flat out or fleet and triple their movement.

Advance: normal movement: every action allowed
Surge: double movement: close combat, consolidate moves, psychic powers, reactions, residual action allowed
Flat out: movement: triple movement: only reactions allowed, use own columns on to hit chart
Fleet movement: triple movement, can charge, count as moving against shooting, cannot forced surge

If the unit goes through difficult terrain it can only advance. No unit can ever go flat out or fleet through terrain.

Forced surge: Units can surge through terrain if they are allowed to go flat out outside terrain this turn. Tanks cannot force surge (except during a ram).
If the unit fails an I-test, terrain is treated as dangerous terrain.
During a charge, every unit can try to surge through. If the I-test is failed, the unit still can only advance. units, that have passed their I-test for the fleet movement, automatically pass this I-test.
Can’t surge if there is another reason for the restriction to advance movement than terrain.

Unit types:
infantry: 6”
beasts/cavalry: 8”, fleet (1)
jump infantry: 8”, ignore terrain*
jet pack infantry: 6”, ignore terrain*, 6” move in consolidation phase
jetbikes: 10”, ignore terrain*, flat out
(eldar jetbike: jetbike with Fleet (2) )
bikes: 8”, flat out, cannot force surge
vehicles: 6”
fast vehicles: 6”, flat out
fast skimmer: 8”, flat out
walker: 6”, treat terrain like infantry

* as long as they don’t start or end in terrain

Fleet (1): infantry, beasts, monstrous creature, jump infantry, jet pack infantry: I-test, if successful, can perform fleet movement, can always advance during disembarkation;
bikes and jetbikes: I-test successful: can make 6” move in consolidation phase
Fleet (2)/Bounding Leap: as Fleet (1), no I-Test required

Random movement: roll a D6: 1-2 unit moves as infantry, 3-4 unit moves as jump infantry but cannot ignore terrain, 5-6 unit moves as beast

Charging:
no model may enter 1” of enemy models unless it charges,
the only difference between a charge and a normal movement is: models may enter 1” of enemy models.
all other movement restrictions apply, unit must stay in coherency, are subject to terrain
charging units can make a forced surge
an unit can charge more than one unit, but must stay in coherency, cannot move closer than 1” to enemy units that are not charged
The units in contact are now locked. If any model moved through terrain, the defending unit can claim to be in terrain in the assault phase, in the assault phase, both unit pile in before trading blows

Charge by chance:
sometimes units are forced to perform a charge in another phase than the movement phase, the charge by chance is a pile in move, as if the charging and defending unit were locked but have lost contact, the defending unit can make a pile in move afterwards (even if it is his phase, the defending player piles in last).
the combat is fought in the next assault phase and no side counts as attacker or being in terrain, no side can use grenades, no further pile in moves occur before the fighting

Movement distance is important for shooting, only the attempted movement in the movement phase counts (other movements do not count, consolidate moves don’t count, even a vehicle that has movement 1” can claim having moved flat out),
can be ‘overridden’ by three events outside movement phase:
fighting in close combat : stationary
become immobile: stationary
falling back: moving

Wounding:
To wound chart:
wound everything at least on 6+

Wound Allocation (cc and shooting):
hit as normal, wound against majority

mark dice that represent special weapons and attacks or roll separately
1. decide whether to use Torrent of Fire or not
2. target’s player allocate wounds to models, beginning with one chosen armour group, if every model in this group has a wound, start with another armour group and so on, if every model in the unit has a wound, start over
—> multiple wounds: count for allocation as as many models as wounds remain
3. pick an unresolved armour group, determine which wounds are directed
4. directed wounds: roll saves for directed wounds, shooting player removes casualties
5. roll all remaining saves of this armour group, owning player removes casualties
6. goto 3

Directed wounds:
there are directed wounds in close combat and long-range combat, casualties from directed wounds are removed by owning player of the attacking unit
Wounds cannot be directed if targeted unit has Shielded USR, Torrent of Fire is used, vehicle diverts its fire or non-vehicle, non-MC unit is in fire corridor
Number of directed wounds: After allocating wounds to an armour group, it is determined if the how many and which wounds are directed as following:
- every attack from an IC in close combat is a directed wound,
- of the remaining wounds, every second wound, beginning with the first, from a Sniper weapon is directed.
- Of the remaining wounds on-sniper wounds, every fifth wound is directed, owning player of the shooting unit decides which wounds are directed

Torrent of Fire/Blows: if torrent of fire is used, the targeted unit is a single armour group, the owning player can choose one model, the whole unit has the same combination of armour saves
During a Torrent of Fire, no wound is directed

Armour group: number of model that share the same combination of saves, for example: 3+ armour save, Feel no Pain (1), no invulnerable save, 6+ cover save that is re-rollable on 1

Shooting:

for determining if a particular model in the unit can shoot, check range and line of sight from this model

cover saves:
fire corridor is measured from squad leader, to the two outermost models in the target unit, if 50% or more models are invisible or partial invisible due to cover or vehicles or monstrous creatures, the unit is in cover,
non-vehicles/MC are invisible for determining cover saves, but if such an unit is in fire corridor, wounds cannot be directed
if unit is covered mostly by fortifications or models are completely invisible: 4+ save
if unit is covered mostly by vegetation: 6+ save
if unit is covered mostly by vehicles or anything else: 5+ save

To Hit chart:
it is the same chart as the wound chart, but with seven columns from 0 till 6
(evasion value in brackets, abbreviates for small chart)

rows:
buildings (0)
stationary vehicles, MC, bikes (1)
stationary infantry, jet pack infantry, jump infantry, beasts // moving vehicles, monstrous creatures (2)
short distance // moving infantry, jet pack infantry (3)
moving bikes, jump infantry, beasts // swarms // flat out vehicles (4)
flat out bikes (5)
flyers, beacons (some narrative missions use beacons) (6)

columns:
BS 1-10

every column is: …. 6+ 6+ 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ 2+ 2+ 2+ …. but is shifted up or down
I give you the BS value for every column that hits on 3+: 1 // 2 // 3 // 4 // 5 // 6 // 7

if distance from squad leader to target is less than 12”, unit can always change column to short distance column
if a model moves like a different unit type, the initial unit type is still used for the chart

Assault weapon: bonus attack for second close combat weapon if unit has charged

Pistols: model can use it as additional close combat weapon or use its Strength in close combat but gains no bonus for another ccw, if pistol is AP 1,2 or 3, attacks are Rending (2)

Blast (Small) and Blast (Large):
scatter as before
don’t use line of sight for determining cover saves, if majority of unit is in terrain, models get cover saves
marker has infinite height, only in leveled terrain it is two-dimensional
multiple Barrage is used every time when there comes more than one blast marker of the same type from a single shooting unit

Template: if there is a range given in a template weapon’s profile you can place the small end anywhere in this distance

Sniper (1): always wounds on 3+, Pinning, every second wound from a Sniper weapon beginning with the first is a directed wound
Sniper (2): always wounds on 3+, Rending (1), Pinning, every second wound from a Sniper weapon beginning with the first is a directed wound

Pinning: must make a pinning morale check

Tracer: treat every target as stationary

Anti Air: treat targeted flyer as flat out vehicle

Rending (1-3): 6,5+,4+ on to wound roll wound automatically and are AP2 or count as power weapon, D3 extra armour penetration

Poison/Dissolving (X+): as before, for shooting and close combat

Lance (1-3): treat AV as 13,12,11, no modifiers on damage chart ever

Instant Death(1): caused by double strength and other effects, models without Eternal Warrior (1-3) loose all wounds
Instant Death(2): models without Eternal Warrior (2-3) loose all wounds
Instant Death(3): also called removed from play, models without Eternal Warrior (3) loose all wounds

Eternal Warrior(1-3): Immune to Instant Death of same or lower level

Assault Phase:

Engaged model: a model that is in base to base contact with enemy model is called engaged, a model that is in contact with friendly engaged model is also called engaged, so if you have a long queue of models that are all in base to base contact and the first is in contact with enemy, alls are engaged

Pile In Move: consolidation move, 6”, priorities:
- must move as man models as possible in base contact with locked enemy unit
- as many models as possible must end the move engaged with model of unit it is locked in close combat with,
- rest of the model must move as near as possible to engaged models
if it is not possible to bring a single model into contact, the distance is increased with 3” until one model is engaged
At the end of the pile in move, every struggling, still unengaged IC is placed in contact with engaged model of enemy’s choosing.

Pile in after charge:
charging units make Pile In move, than the defending unit makes a Pile in Move

Attacking
Every engaged model can attack. If it is engaged with more than one unit, it can decide freely.
WS majority is used
IC are unit of their own in close combat

Initiative order:
Always strike first/last: unit strikes before I1 or after I10, is not affected by I modifiers, if unit always strikes first and last, it strikes in normal I order

charging unit in terrain: strikes at I1

Power fist: strikes always last

Feint: models can attack in a lower initiative phase if they want

Grenades: unchanged

Resolving combat
unchanged, but no more -1 for under half strength

No retreat:
Fearless units (or units that stay in combat even if they fail their morale check) make normal morale checks after loosing a combat, if failed, can decide nonetheless to stay in close combat, but every model in base to base contact may make a single attack against unit, if a model is in base to base contact with several Fearless units that failed their test, it can make one attack against each unit

Sweeping Advance: normal, unmodified I of squad leader is used

Pile in after combat: all locked units make Pile In moves, order is chosen by the player who’s turn it is, units that are no longer locked and not falling back, make a 3” consolidation move, the unit counts as being stationary

Special rules
distinction between special rules and universal special rules
Some USR and other special or weapon rules have more than one level. If no level is given, the rule is treated as level 1. Only exception: Lance and Fearless are level 2 by default
USR are always conferred to or from joined IC, other special rules not
deployment rules and rules in codices are temporarily lost if not every model in the unit has it, if it is not explicitly stated otherwise

all USR:
Preferred Enemy: as before
Tank Hunter: as before, but it only works against tanks
Counter Attack: as before, negates Furious Charge
Veiled(1): if unit targets veiled unit, must roll 3D6 x 3” over distance or forfeit shooting
Veiled (2-3): 2D6” x 2
Acute Senses/Night Vision(1-3): reroll Veiled roll of equal or lower level
Furious Charge: as before
Hit & Run: as before
Overwatch: can react with returning fire
Move through cover (1): I-Test to ignore terrain
Move through cover (2): ignores terrain
Sworn Brothers/Mindless Slaves: if squad leader is killed, every other model in unit can assume leadership
Rage: must always at least advance and use full distance towards enemy (for example raged infantry must at least move 6”, if decide to surge, must move 12”), if shaken or embarked, ignores the rule
Shielded: as long as one model with this rule remains in target unit, wounds cannot be directed wounds
Slow and purposeful: Relentless; can only surge, if S-test is passed, if unit moves through terrain, it cannot force a surge, units with SaP and Fleet and/or Flat out have Relentless and Random movement instead, negates Preferred Enemy
Shock Troop: always rolls a single D6” under 18” in a deep strike, a hit is a hit
Skilled Rider/Driver/Ranger (1): reroll dangerous terrain tests
Skilled Rider/Driver/Ranger (2): ignore dangerous terrain tests
Stealth (1): +1 on cover save, must take Vanish reaction if unit takes a shooting reaction
Stealth (2-3): +1,+2 on cover save; 6+,5+ in the open, must take Vanish reaction if unit takes a shooting reaction

no USR:
Relentless: always count as stationary for firing weapons
Swarms: use the moving beasts (4) column in the chart regardless of movement or unit type, Blast and Template Weapons cause Instant Death (2) against swarms

Vehicles:

damage chart:
only negative modifiers: -2 glancing, -1 any hit except AP1 and AP – against tanks, -2 AP – against tanks (AP 1 flat +1 gone), -3 hit by blast marker but hole not over vehicle and vehicle is not open-topped (no more halved S for blast markers)

chart unchanged, but if vehicle blows up (6+ on chart), embarked troops and models in D6” get S3 AP – hit, if vehicle blows up embarked troops are Suppressed, if the vehicle is only wrecked they are fine

if a flat out moving vehicle is immobilised (4) or wrecked (5) it blows up (6+) instead and embarked units are Pinned instead of Suppressed.

close combat basically the same:
no close combat resolution against non-walkers, but units can decide to break off and make a 3” consolidation move
hit stationary vehicle automatically, advancing vehicle on 4+, at any other speed and skimmers on 6+

Shooting: stationary: fire all weapons, advance: fire one, surge: no weapon
fast as before: advance and fire all, surge and fire one
every weapon can target different unit, when doing so, cannot cause directed wounds, even with Sniper weapons

Transport:
Fire point: can fire if vehicle has advanced or surged, but only 12” regardless of weapon type, embarked troops are relentless
Embarking: 4” move in consolidation phase in contact towards access point, if squad leader reaches access point, unit is embarked. If not, no move is performed
Disembarking: 4” in movement phase from any access point or base in case of flyers, consolidation move, counts as having moved the same distance category as vehicle, i.e. stationary, advance, surge; no charge
cannot disembark if going flat out or if unit cannot move as fast as vehicle, i.e. cannot disembark at surge speed into cover, as you can only advance in cover
if vehicle was stationary, unit can move normally from access point instead of disembarkation move, can charge
fleeting units can advance from access point instead of making disembarkation move if vehicle advanced or surged

Trapped: if an enemy model is in base to base contact with access point of closed vehicle, access point cannot be used. If every access point is blocked, the unit cannot disembark. If the unit is forced to disembark because the vehicle is destroyed, the unit is placed on the wreck or in the crater. If the unit is forced to disembark for another reason it is destroyed. The units that were in base to base contact with the access points must make a charge by chance on the embarked unit immediately if it can react
Flyers in skimmer or flyer mode and open-topped vehicles are not subject to this rule. If embarked units have to disembark place them as near as possible to the vehicle (wreck) or base

Multiple embarked units: must use different access points, if Trapped, choose access points, respective unit must charge

Skimmer: no more cover save for flat out movement

Squadron: must target the same unit,
if consists of at least two vehicles, one is squadron commander
commander: as long as commanding vehicles exists, every immobile result in squadron on vehicle with weapons left is weapon destroyed instead
rest unchanged, old allocation rules

Lumbering: can only surge if roll of 4+ on D6, if moved not faster than advance: can fire every turret mounted weapons in addition to normally allowed weapons

open topped:
has no further effect than that units can disembark and fire everywhere, no charge advantage, no damage modifier

Tanks
cannot force a surge, even if they are flat out, but can ram
AP 1 and AP – only useful against tanks

Non-tanks:
only non-tanks can force surge through terrain outside of ram
fails I-test automatically, so gets a S8 on 4+

Ramming:
now every tank shock is a ram, a ram is a straight movement with max speed (flat out or surge), if tank cannot go faster than advance, cannot ram
tank can force surge through terrain, but still can’t go flat out through it
only one turn before the movement is possible

three things can happen: tank shock through unit, passing interfering terrain, ramming attack against vehicle or building or impassable terrain

no disembarking or shooting from embarked unit or vehicle is possible after ramming

terrain:
S8 against side on 4+ as normal
Skimmer can choose to fly over terrain or go through. If go over, no tank shock or ram on units in terrain.

Tank shock:
an unit under the vehicle’s path must make a morale check
if it fails, the unit evades headless and is falling back
If check is nearly failed, unit is rolled over
If check passed but not nearly failed, can decide if nothing happens nothing happens as tanks passes by or unit is rolled over
Rolled over: unit can attempt to stop vehicle (like death or glory)
shaken units can’t try to stop
if the tanks presses on, the unit gets D3 S5 hits with Rending (2)

Ram against vehicle/building:
both vehicles deal an automatic hit to the opposing vehicle
the hit is resolved against the side in contact
to calculate the S, take the AV in contact (if it is a tank, always take the front AV) and subtract a modifier
-6 if ramming vehicle has surged
-4 if ramming vehicle moved flat out
impassable terrain and buildings have AV 14 for this purpose and can’t be damaged

Ram against walker
walker can try to stop tank as if rolled over, if vehicle isn’t stopped, impact is resolved as ram, walker cannot charge by chance

if tank would end movement on unit:
may make a 6” special move in any direction but they must try to make place for the tank, if they would be still under the vehicle they may make another 3” move and another and another, until they are 1” away from the tank and in coherency, moves are treated like consolidation moves, but can performed in every situation even if unit is immobile or can’t perform any other action
the evading unit can perform a charge by chance on the vehicle, if it can react, afterwards

comes to halt, if it: touches vehicle, building, impassable terrain, 1” before an unit in close combat or is stunned, destroyed or immobilized, movement distance is reached

Artillery: vehicle, squadron, immobile, AV 10 /10 /10, BS as crew,
no commander
can place one crew counter per artillery, some can have additional crew members
can remove counter to ignore a single crew shaken or stunned result
can fight in cc like a walker, with WS, S, I as the crew, the number of attacks is the number of crew counters plus the number of artillery devices
enemy attacks are resolved solely against the artillery

Flyers:
- can decide every round in the preparation phase: count as fast skimmer or flyer, can decide upon arrival from reserves

flyer mode:
- If flyer is in reserve, it is placed in harry reserve every time, even if it can’t outflank
- Flyers from reserve are place in the the preparation phase on any table edge
- unlike other vehicles, flyers cannot turn as they like
- ignore all terrain, even impassable
- up to 18” movement, no surge, no flat out, one turn anywhere during the movement up to 90 degrees
- must move 12” in straight line in preparation phase, can turn up to 45 degree at the end of the movement,
- must move 12” in straight line in consolidation phase, can turn up to 45 degree at the end of the movement, if reaches table edge or can’t be placed at the end of the turn, flyer is put back in harry reserve, cannot change into skimmer mode
- Flyers can always fire every weapon at a single target, all weapons have AA rule
- no (dis-)embarking, except special drops if unit has Aerial Drop special rule
- if immobilized (4) or wrecked (5), place Blast (Large) marker in random direction in 3D6”, causes S5 (against side armour), place crater
- Embarked troops are destroyed if flyer in flyer mode is wrecked or destroyed. If immobilized, unit is placed in crater, get S5 hit each, Suppressed
- flyers have their own column in the to hit chart, Blast weapons don’t use their marker, use BS to hit, if marker targets another unit and touches flyer, hit is ignored
- barrage and ordnance weapons can fire direct, but must re-roll hits, even if twin-linked, weapons that hit automatically can’t hit flyers, that includes shooting, rift and shock wave psychic powers that hit automatically
- close combat: in contact with base, attacks hit on 6, any other unit than jump infantry, jetpack infantry and jetbikes must re-roll hits
- cannot be rammed, base is treated like unit in close combat

Aerial Drop: flyer with this special rule can disembak units even if in flyer mode, in any phase embarked jump infantry and jet pack infantry can be placed via deep strike on a point, the flyer has moved over in this phase

IC: can roll two saves at the same time,
All wounds from an IC in close combat are directed. count as separate unit in assault phase for dealing damage
joining: 3” move in preparation or consolidation phase, assumes automatically squad leadership
combat: if IC is part of an unit that is in close combat, but isn’t in base to base contact, it is moved into it by the shortest distance

Squad Leader:
You must nominate one model of every unit to be the squad leader, if the unit entry doesn’t make clear which model it is in the first place.

Banner/Icon/Trophy: if squad leader is killed, standard- or icon bearer automatically becomes new squad leader.
If one or more independent characters have joined the unit, one of them automatically becomes new squad leader. If the IC is killed, the normal leader takes over.

Squad leaders can take two saves, all wounds from squad leader in close combat are directed
only applies for initial squad leader.

If the unit must take a characteristic test, use the profile of the Squad leader.
used for all kinds of things

Every time when something is measured from the squad leader, or he has to make a test for the unit, but the unit has no leader anymore, the opposing player can choose one model for this purpose

psychic powers:

Psychic test: morale check to use power, if morale check is failed, no more powers this turn from this psyker

perils: unchanged

power levels: number of psychic powers per player’s turn
power types:
- shooting power: count as firing a weapon, line of sight, BS roll or scatter if blast, fire point needed
- rift power: count as firing a weapon, true line of sight, no BS roll or scatter, only disembarked, targets suffer described effect, wounds from rift powers cause ID (2)
- modifying power: preparation phase, no line of sight or BS roll, no fire point needed, distance from hull, can only target own models inside transport; if target splits during the turn, the psyker’s player can decide on which part the power remains
- aura: preparation phase, psyker and joined unit are effected, if psyker leaves unit, power stays only with psyker, no BS roll, no fire point needed, transport unaffected, sustained power
- shock wave: count as firing a weapon, no line of sight, no BS roll needed, radius from base edge, must be disembarked, units in transports are unaffected

block: psyker in normal condition in 24” of other psyker can attempt to block psychic power, on 5+ blocked, on 1 perils of warp attack (unchanged), if equipped with similar wargear, psyker can decide which to use, only one block attempt per power

passive powers: no need for psychic test, not subject to block, don’t work if unit ‘can’t perform any action’
resonating powers: can stack
sustained powers: if psyker is shaken or engaged in close combat, power is blocked
rampant power: if psyker uses a rampant power, cannot use another power this turn, even with power level 2 or more

force weapon: as before, ID(2)
witchblades: as before, besides: force weapon with ID(1)

Unit conditions:
Morale checks: roll with 2D6 against squad leaders Ld as normal, but result of a failed or passed roll varies from situation to situation i.e. psychic test, pinning test, casualties, and are given for every situation. there is no more: “make a normal morale check”
In some situations a morale check can not only be failed or passed, but also be nearly failed. Nearly failed is if rolled higher than halved LD (rounding up) but below or equal to Ld, modifiers are applied before halving, but there are no more modifiers outside close combat

five usual situations: lost close combat, heavy casualties, pinning, psychic test, rallying
checks due to other fleeing unit is gone

Heavy casualties: made in consolidation phase, 25% casualties or more in a shooting phase: if failed: fall back

Pinning:
if morale check fails, unit is Pinned, if nearly fails, unit is Suppressed

Lost close combat:
unchanged, difference in combat resolution as modifier

- Suppressed:
non-vehicle and non-MCs units cannot move flat out, fleet, force a surge, shoot, use psychic powers, react, if they fail a T-test, they cannot surge and charge
vehicles and MC: can still react and fire a single weapon, cannot ram, (vehicles fail their T-test automatically), vehicles can only voluntarily become suppressed, embarked units in a suppressed vehicle cannot shoot from within
infantry, beasts, unit with swarm get Stealth (1) or level of stealth one up up to 3
if charged: looses suppressed status immediately
if forced to make another morale check: morale check, if nearly failed or failed, unit is Pinned instead of Suppressed
- Pinned: cannot move, shoot, make consolidate moves, use psychic powers, react
infantry, beasts, unit with swarm get Stealth (1) or level of stealth one up up to 3
if charged: looses Pinned status immediately but cannot use defensive grenades and Counter Charge USR and gains no bonus from terrain
if forced to make another morale check: morale check, if nearly failed or failed, unit is Falling Back instead of being pinned
- Falling Back:
in moment of breaking unit immediately makes consolidation move towards own table edge with surge distance, count as having surged for purposes of shooting
can act in subsequent turn as normal, but must attempt to move and simultaneously end their movement not closer to any enemy unit. If they cannot move in the movement phase because of this they are removed from play. Therefore they cannot stay stationary voluntarily or charge an enemy.
They can perform consolidation moves, but cannot end nearer to any enemy unit. Unit cannot react.
if charged: if charging model reaches the unit, unit is destroyed and charge is unsuccessful
if forced to make another morale check: unit is destroyed, does not apply for rallying
if reaches voluntarily or during their initial move the table edge: are removed from play but don’t count as destroyed
- Shaken: abbreviation for Suppressed, Pinned, Falling Back
- Immobile: abbreviation for cannot move, cannot react, cannot make consolidation moves

Rallying: suppressed and pinned units automatically recover in the consolidation phase of their next player’s turn
A falling back unit with squad leader can make a morale check in the preparation phase if there is no enemy unit in 6”. If successful the unit can act normally. If failed, the unit is not destroyed. A falling back unit can embark into a vehicle an rallies immediately. The 3” movement can be towards enemies as long as it end inside the vehicle.

Fearless (1): if any morale check for rallying, casualties, tank shock or in close combat fails, the unit can decide to pass it anyway, Fearless units treat Pinned as Suppressed, treat Falling back as normal condition
Fearless (2): as Fearless (1) but can decide to pass Pinning tests, too

Stubborn: always use the unmodified Ld for morale tests in close combat, Stubborn and Fearless (1-2) units must always choose to pass a morale check

Misc:
swarm = model with swarm rule
there is no special rule for allocating wounds against units with multiple wounds

Mission rules:
3 old types of placement, only one type of mission

Sequence:
place terrain -> decide type of placement -> place mission markers -> decide first turn -> choose stratagems -> put units in reserve ->deploy remaining units -> deploy infiltrating units -> make scout moves

First turn:
roll-off, looser bids a number of strategy points, opponent can raise or bail out, both player can raise the stake until someone bails out. Winner can decide to go first or last
Player that goes first can decide table edge and has to deploy first
The looser can spent the strategy points on stratagems

Placing mission markers: 1 marker is placed as near as possible to the middle of the table, 4 markers are placed in turn, starting with the player that goes first. marker has to be more than 12” away from table edges and other markers
marker use a 60mm base and are impassable terrain, the center marker is flat and doesn’t block line of sight, the players can use every shape they want for the markers they place, as long as it doesn’t overlap the base significantly

Night Fighting: all units Veiled (1)

Scout: 12” move before the game after infiltrators are placed, outflank

Infiltrator: can be placed anywhere outside 18” of enemy models, count as veiled (2) as long as they make no voluntary action

Outflank: nominate side, on 3+ comes from there, on 1-2 from other side

Deep Strike: mishab table as before, place squad leader,
if in 6” of enemy: 3D6” scatter, use arrow on hit symbol, if in 12”: 2D6” hit is hit, in 18”: 1D6”, outside 18”: no scatter
may only advance on turn of arrival, even with fleet or flat out, count always as (advance) moving, charge allowed

Reserves: unit(s), their transport and joined IC count as one unit for all reserve related purposes, but the unit has to start inside the transport and IC has to be in the unit, units can use special deployment options of the vehicle but not vice versa,
1. nominate any number of outflanking units to harry, place them near the table, facing the enemy’s table edge
2. flank guard: nominate half (rounding down) of the remaining units to arrive in turn 2, place them near the table, facing the small table edge
3. rear guard: the rest arrives in turn 3, place them near the table, facing the own table edge
In the preparation phase
when you put an unit in reserve you have to decide upon a deployment method

In preparation phase:
flank guard: from turn 2 on: arrives on 2+
rear guard: arrives in turn 2 on 1, and from turn 3 on on 2+
harrying units arrive on 4+ from turn 2 on
all remaining reserves are arriving on turn 6

for every harrying unit that is in reserve in the enemy’s preparation phase, you can make the enemy reroll one reserve roll

units from reserves are placed in the preparation phase in base to base contact with table edge (if not deep striking), if there is not enough space, placed back in reserves

Victory Points
both armies can collect victory points throughout the game, there are two ways: claim a kill, claim a mission marker at the end of the game turn:

Claim Kill:
every destroyed tank (not vehicle), walker, monstrous creature or independent character is a kill. Every squad leader that is killed is a kill (not counting standards, etc.)
Every kills gives one victory point

Claim Marker:
You check in your own preparation phase if you hold or control a marker. Opponent checks in his preparation phase.

You control a marker, if there is one of your scoring units in 3” of the marker and no enemy scoring unit. If you control a marker you get 3 victory points.
You hold a marker, if you don’t control it, there is one of your non-scoring non-vehicle units in 3” and no enemy unit. If you hold a marker you get 2 victory points.

You start in the preparation phase of the second going player in the second game turn. The player that goes first checks a last time at the end of the game as there is no preparation phase in turn 7.

Vehicles and shaken units are completely ignored. Embarked units only count if transport is open-topped.

Game length:
6 turns

Stratagems:

1 can place automatic turret
immobile BS 3 10/10/10
is equipped with twin-linked weapon
can choose one weapon, that an infantry model from FOC Troop can be equipped with

1 the first or last game turn is night fighting

1 can re-roll one outflanking roll and one deep striking scatter roll per turn

1 can block every psychic power on 6+ even if no psyker in 24”, psykers block on 4+

1 steal the initiative: if going second, roll at the start of the game a D6, on 6 you go first

1 own units use Ld 10 for pinning morale checks

2 one unit for every full 1500 points can get one of the following USR: Tank Hunter, Shielded, Fearless (1), Preferred Enemy, Relentless

2 decide during deployment if rear or flank guard: roll a single reserve roll for all units in chosen guard

2 Mine Field: makes one piece of terrain for every full 750 points dangerous

2 units of both forces that are holding or controlling mission marker have Overwatch USR

3 can make one non-vehicle unit upon deployment scoring

3 enemy deep striking units must subtract 6” from distance to enemy to see how they scatter

2 all weapons of one unit for every full 750 points have the Anti Air and Tracer rule

4 you can switch units from rear guard to flank guard until you roll the first reserve roll,
every unit can decide upon arrival which deployment method it uses: deep strike, normal reserve or outflank,
one unit for every full 1500 points per turn can change its deployment method to one it cannot normally be deployed with

4 All own units count as having surged or moved flat out before the game.

4 all own units are equipped with offensive grenades

6 all enemy units count as being in terrain in their first turn

6 all own units count as Veiled (2) in turn one

6 enemy rear guard and flank guard units roll like harrying units for their arrival

12 Pitch black: Night fighting with Veil (2) during the whole game

12 own units: weapons fired in 6” range count as twin-linked

12 enemy must re-roll successful cover saves

every stratagem can only be taken one time,
for every unspent point, once per game one roll may be re-roll, this cannot be the steal the iniative roll

Narratives rules:
- optional rules: apocalyptic weapons, super heavy vehicles (not much changed, but rules for damaged super heavies for small games), formations
- new deployment types, mostly taken from mission expansion
- new victory conditions
- rules for games with predetermined strategy points for both players
- three sets of additional stratagems: fortifications, deployment options, reinforced buildings
- special terrain: ruins, streets, hell rivers, deathworld mangroves, warp gate, sand pit, orbital landing platform, habitat block
- highly modular: you can mix deployment rule, victory condition, optional rules, available stratagem sets, number of strategy points to spent and special terrain: voila, you have your own mission _


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan

So all this sugar honey ice tea means a new 5 million pound rulebook judging by the way GWs prices are going

After reading the above I've realised I thought the 5th Ed game could be complicated!!'


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## Butcher001

If the changes are like that I will enjoy the game more than ever.

Tactical deep is good. Strategical one also.

Perhaps a little more complicated to play (don't worry, there won't be 1h resolution for napoleonic melee XD) but I think that well streamlined will make sense and a great game again!


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## Azrell

Look at the stuff on characters, then check out the unit type for things in the CGKs... 

Suddenly the fist on the dread knight makes more sense if it was written with those rules in mind yeah?

Off course this could just haves easily have been ligit, but just a list of playtest ideas, or even warlord testing ideas for there version of 40k. shit a rumor is just that... a rumor.


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## exsulis

Yeah, though the shooting ones are a little _odd_ to me. i'd prefer rerolls for needing to hit on stuff needing over a 6 to hit, or wound. and something similar on the other side too.


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## MadCowCrazy

This is actually starting to look really good, looking forwards to this as it seems to be making the game more exciting and strategic.


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## Zion

More from ridetheerk:



> - models that have charged already locked unit have I 10 this turn
> - Assume leadership: Standard bearers, etc. that assume leadership count as squad leader in all respects (two saves, directed wounds), any other model that assumes leadership only in regard of performing unit actions
> - if you deploy in 24” distance from enemy you cannot shoot with 24” weapon or assault with 24” movement
> - models must always consolidate out of 1” of vehicle after attacking it, if locked in combat with another unit, vehicles are ignored for pile in moves after combat, must use this pile in move to bring 1” between unit an vehicle, artillery and walkers are obviously exceptions
> - swarms have Eternal Warrior (1)
> - Seize the initiative: same name, but completely different rule: stratagem, 1 str. point, after the deployment of both force, but before placing infiltrators, roll a D6, on 5+, enemy must place infiltrators in contact with his own table edge, no scout moves allowed
> - whole unit or squadron must make the same reaction
> - Pistols: got confused by what I though were two contradicting short statements; units with pistols can attack with pistol’s S, AP1,2,3 pistols confer Rending (2) (Rending on 5+), Gets Hot! wounds count against combat resolution,
> on charge: can make full attacks
> in any other turn: can make single attack, does not get bonus of second ccw, etc.
> - if both player agree, the charge movement and pile in move before combat can be made as one move with combined movement distance after the first model was engaged to fasten things up
> - Characters: shooting wounds are directed, too
> - Advanced rules: evasion value (normal rules: always use short distance), all reactions, Torrent of Fire, Directed wounds, damage chart modifiers for AP, flyer mode, ramming, Stratagems: bidding stays intact but only re-rolls can be taken, unique units, measuring*
> * normal rules: can measure anytime you want, advanced: movement: measure full movement distance you want to go, i.e. 6” for a advancing, can’t measure 12” surge distance, anything else: measure distance to target
> you play either all advanced rules or none at all
> - Hit & Run: still random: 3D6” consolidation move
> - Morale checks for casualties: only in enemy’s shooting phase
> - witchblade can now cause ID after psychic test like force weapons
> - there is a small box for rare movement situations: if infantry unit moves as jump infantry (or any other unit type has movement rules of another unit type), it uses the jump infantry movement rules, but for shooting and close combat it counts as original unit type, so it is still easy to hit, if an unit moves flat out and there is no column in the to hit chart, take the moving column, exotic movements count as ‘moving’ even if faster than flat out move, deep striking units count as ‘moving’ , if units that are immobile arrives from reserves but not via deep strike, they are placed in contact with table edge normally and remain there for the rest of the game, we shall assume the the bunker has decloaked or something similar, units disembarking from deep striking vehicles use the disembarking rules for charging, so no charge unless fleet rule
> - Master-crafted: re-roll one to hit roll, if several models attack with master-crafted weapons of the same type, roll the dice together, then re-roll as many dice as there are master-crafted weapons
> - if you shoot through interfering models, you cannot snipe
> running out out steam because I don’t get the errata info and I have reached even the tiny details of the rules
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but I have one big thing left:
> - monstrous creatures: 2D6 versus vehicles, ignore armour, move as infantry unless stated otherwise, are ignored for Abandon as ICs, IGNORE TERRAIN WHEN CHARGING


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## Synack

Nids are looking AWESOME!


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## Shandathe

Given that they might well change things now that they're out - if these are even an actual leak - don't get too enthusiastic yet


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## Drannith

honestly if these are true it sounds like Fantasy and Infinity had a bastard child and named it 6th Ed 40k. 

Not sure how I feel on these yet. If they are true then there is going to be a hell of an errata on every codex out... not sure GW is up to doing that in a timely manner.


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## LordWaffles

Butcher001 said:


> If the changes are like that I will enjoy the game more than ever.
> 
> Tactical deep is good. Strategical one also.


I skimmed through most of the rules. Where the fuck do they nerf vehicles?

Because currently this does nothing to stop the powerhouse metagame, and even makes vehicles stronger!(no ap1 means -1 to chart)

The only thing I saw was blasts always striking vehicles at full strength.

Also why the fuck would they introduce a squad leader element without having any negatives if he dies? You can just nominate another one, why bother having him if he provides no benefit? Actually aside from seeming to last longer, he's a liability since you measure sight from him.
According to the rules if you don't have a squad leader, you just pick who to measure from. Wobbly vision anyone?


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## Synack

Tanks are easier to hit. If they're standing still, you're hitting them on a 2+ with BS3 and if they're moving you're hitting them on a 3+. This mean's you'll get getting more pen/glance results, so to off set that, they have removed the bonus for AP1.

My Tyrannofexes are happy.


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## Matheau

This seems pretty fake to me. Two contradictory leaks written in the same grammar, punctuation, format, style, and sharing the exact same anti-GW message. Supposedly coming from ICQ conversations, yet by all appearances were written in one go. There is only so much that can be attributed to "reformatting" on the part of the poster.


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## The Sullen One

It's amazing how many people seem to be taking these rumours as established fact. Well the fact is that these rules won't be seeing the light of store shelves for at least a year, possibly longer since I don't see GW going to the expense of issuing errata for a lot of codices only to then go to the expense of issuing new codices.

Nor do I see GW risking damage to the goose that lays the golden egg by making such fundamental and radical changes to the game, especially when, as Lordwaffles points out, those changes appear to serve no useful purpose.

With Warhammer 8th edition receiving the Storm of Magic expansion, along with a host of new models, GW have already taken quite a risk, banking on a hope that this expansion fares better than some of the 40k ones have. Add in the various army books in need of updating (Ogres, Bretonnia and so on) as well as the new models that will be coming out and you're looking at quite a commercial risk. Sorry, but I don't see GW's accountants liking the idea of them doing something equally risky with 40k.


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## Creon

I actually believe these are a set of "ideas" GW "leaked" to see who liked them, who didn't, and what the reaction is, and then they'll put what they like in the rules. I can't see them having a situation where each unit needs a marker for what "state" they're in. It will slow the game down and make it very complex, which they've been avoiding in previous editions, for a decade or more.


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## ohiocat110

Creon said:


> I actually believe these are a set of "ideas" GW "leaked" to see who liked them, who didn't, and what the reaction is, and then they'll put what they like in the rules. I can't see them having a situation where each unit needs a marker for what "state" they're in. It will slow the game down and make it very complex, which they've been avoiding in previous editions, for a decade or more.


Makes sense. There's no way this is a coherent rules set. Too much contradiction, and a lot of it makes no sense. How would Tyranids or Chaos Demons get turrets and minefields as a strategem?

Plus taken together it's just too radical and would essentially invalidate entire army builds or codexes. 8" jump infantry and no CC attack for pistols means you can just throw out the Blood Angels and Black Templars codex. 

If any of this is real (which is still highly doubtful), it would be as a collection of trial balloon ideas and not a complete rules set.


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## Lash Machine

I feel the biggest clue to the fact that it is total bollocks is in the initial pitch:

_"As I am done with GW forever. I love the miniatures, I like the new rules (been pretty enthusiastic about it), but I hate the company, that makes them. If you knew what I know you would feel the same. GW doesn’t care for their customers one bit. The whole corporal culture is cynical as hell. The managers despise the hobby and all immatures who play it. There is a huge rift in the management and most of the executives that actually play the game have left or are leaving the company right now."_

The whole basis of the pitch is to bring across the feeling that this is a genuine leak by a person totally let down by the company after working for them. Where it falls apart is in the use of bad grammar and use of the English language. If they really were privy to this they had to work in the games design and development studio in Nottingham. Now although many FAQs are basically needed due to poorly written rules I feel this is way below the standard of someone who would have worked in that facility for GW. It smacks of being written by a teenager, especially the _"The managers despise the hobby and all immatures who play it."_ 

I think that crediting GW with the forsight to leak the rules for feedback is beyond their comprehension and when they have actually used veteran tournamnet players for advice and feedback on rules in the past they have ignored it. The chaos codex and Lash of submission was one such case where the feedback they got from a northern England gaming group was that the book was fine but Lash was too powerful and should be amended. GW wrote back and said thanks but we will ignore it as we know best.

Considering the amount of old codexes getting updated before 6th Ed's release next year I find it hard to think that they have been written with these rule sets in mind. Admittedly probably from Nids onwards they have been crafted with 6th Ed in mind, such was the case with Chaos and Orks for 5th, but I do not think that codexes released this past year or so are aligned with this rule set and it makes little comercial or common sense for the amount of upheaval involved in FAQing the hell out of codexes that would have had a lot of time and money put into them just prior to the new rule release.

Another point to consider is why have GW legal not come down on this from a great height. I would have thought that if this is genuine that a leak to what amounts to the entire rules so far in advance would be a breach of intelectual copyright at least.


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## LordWaffles

Synack said:


> Tanks are easier to hit. If they're standing still, you're hitting them on a 2+ with BS3 and if they're moving you're hitting them on a 3+. This mean's you'll get getting more pen/glance results, so to off set that, they have removed the bonus for AP1.
> 
> My Tyrannofexes are happy.


That's fucking retarded.
They needed to be NERFED. Into the GROUND.
Not given a reasonable backhand followed by a hundred spot.

They don't need to offset anything. This just makes leafblower MORE. POWERFUL. This is the opposite of progress.


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## Katie Drake

Don't worry, these rumors are clearly bullshit, I wouldn't get too excited over it.


----------



## Justindkates

I miss the good old days when vehicles were a death trap : /


----------



## Necrosis

Justindkates said:


> I miss the good old days when vehicles were a death trap : /


I miss the gold old days when GW told us what they were doing.


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## deathwatch27

I miss the really good old days when you could buy 3 rhinos for a tenner (£10)


----------



## TheSpore

I miss 2nd ed. Chaos and the 3.5 chaos


----------



## bitsandkits

i miss my hair


----------



## darklove

I miss 4th ed., when all you needed was a Nightbringer and 100 Necron Warriors to nuke any army out there... Glancing hits were a lot more deadly back then.


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## TheSpore

ahhhhhhhhhhhh those were the days back when you were considered and asshole when you fielded 3 exorcists and 3 dominion melta sqauds. Oh wait you still called and ashole for that!!


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## TheSpore

K Im not sure how much creedance can be taken from this but I figured Ide put it out there Here is the source http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-40k-race-as-6th-edition-dawns-hrud.html#more

_posted via MrSatan
The Hrud are going to be released with the new edition next year. This was brought to light in the 6th edition rumor thread by Ghost and backed by BramGaunt.

MOST RECENT INFO (GHOST): 
-Will probably be a white dwarf teaser list and then a full codex. Look out for hints in upcoming WD's

-The Umbra WILL be in the army

-There will be at least one vehicle described as a tunneler modified for war (tunneling rules a la trygon perhaps?)

-They have units named/such as Triads, Blades, Shamans, Paths

-They are described as a 'steamroller' type force withe tactic such as 'shoot retreat shoot , ambush' 

-Background-wise they are described as an ancient race that are pissed because they lost their homeworld to slaanesh, the umbra are said to be fragments of their God (Q'ah) that was destroyed by Slaanesh. They hate Chaos with a passion.

Some definitions of what these creatures are. (quoted from The Lexicanum)

Hrud
The "Hrud" is depicted as a crouched, diminutive creature swathed in rags, its face obscured by a hood, and possessing a rat-like tail. 

It seems that the Hrud prefer darkness and are basically scavengers and tunnel-dwellers. They are found all over the galaxy, though never in large numbers. They are considered to be parasites, and when they are referred to it is usually as "infesting" a place. 

Observing a Hrud is often difficult even within a well light room due to a distortion field of unknown origin emanating from the Hrud that prevents the eye from focusing on it. In addition the limbs of a Hrud have a bone structure similar to the human spine allowing the limbs to bend in any direction (hence the nickname "bendies"). They also exude various poisons from their skin. Their bodies liquefy rapidly upon death - conveniently making detailing the creature impossible. 

Another notable quality amongst the race is that they produce innate entropic fields from their bodies. This has the side effect of aging their surroundings leading to objects such as crops turning to dust due to prolonged exposure and Humans suffering from premature aging.

Umbra
The Umbra are an alien species apearing as smooth black spheres that live in the void of space, often observed attracted to areas resonant of the warp such as starship hulls and warp engines or suspected entrances to the Eldar Webway. They can manipulate and control shadows to form terrifying limbs of hooks, blades, teeth and other nightmarish shapes _

The source site I found this is also talking about this whole 6th ed rumour stuff as well but Im not sure how factual this is, I know its the first time I heard this. Anyway Im just a messenger please don't shoot me


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## Cypher871

:laugh: Hrud = Space Skaven...pleasssse no. :laugh:


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## Shandathe

I miss the days rumours like those could get nuked from orbit as we were sure it wouldn't ever happen :grin:


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## TheSpore

I have a feeling it wont happen either but I thought it would be worth mentioning. I dont see any reason GW would at all want to expand with another army since they cant seem to keep up with what they have now


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## MadCowCrazy

So if GW does indeed add a new army to 40k I guess that means every non SM army can add another year or two to how often they get updated. So a new Dark Eldar codex in 2024...


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## TheSpore

Like I said all these wild 6th ed rumours sound well a lil too ou there IMO. Granted normally when a rumour about GW goes viral it means soo we will hear a lick of truth about it from GW.

Though many have always thought that the Hrud would wind up being a new army I really don't see it happening. Its a lil odd and most of the stuff sounds like wish listing.


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## yanlou

TheSpore said:


> K Im not sure how much creedance can be taken from this but I figured Ide put it out there Here is the source http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-40k-race-as-6th-edition-dawns-hrud.html#more
> 
> _posted via MrSatan
> The Hrud are going to be released with the new edition next year. This was brought to light in the 6th edition rumor thread by Ghost and backed by BramGaunt.
> 
> MOST RECENT INFO (GHOST):
> -Will probably be a white dwarf teaser list and then a full codex. Look out for hints in upcoming WD's
> 
> -The Umbra WILL be in the army
> 
> -There will be at least one vehicle described as a tunneler modified for war (tunneling rules a la trygon perhaps?)
> 
> -They have units named/such as Triads, Blades, Shamans, Paths
> 
> -They are described as a 'steamroller' type force withe tactic such as 'shoot retreat shoot , ambush'
> 
> -Background-wise they are described as an ancient race that are pissed because they lost their homeworld to slaanesh, the umbra are said to be fragments of their God (Q'ah) that was destroyed by Slaanesh. They hate Chaos with a passion.
> 
> Some definitions of what these creatures are. (quoted from The Lexicanum)
> 
> Hrud
> The "Hrud" is depicted as a crouched, diminutive creature swathed in rags, its face obscured by a hood, and possessing a rat-like tail.
> 
> It seems that the Hrud prefer darkness and are basically scavengers and tunnel-dwellers. They are found all over the galaxy, though never in large numbers. They are considered to be parasites, and when they are referred to it is usually as "infesting" a place.
> 
> Observing a Hrud is often difficult even within a well light room due to a distortion field of unknown origin emanating from the Hrud that prevents the eye from focusing on it. In addition the limbs of a Hrud have a bone structure similar to the human spine allowing the limbs to bend in any direction (hence the nickname "bendies"). They also exude various poisons from their skin. Their bodies liquefy rapidly upon death - conveniently making detailing the creature impossible.
> 
> Another notable quality amongst the race is that they produce innate entropic fields from their bodies. This has the side effect of aging their surroundings leading to objects such as crops turning to dust due to prolonged exposure and Humans suffering from premature aging.
> 
> Umbra
> The Umbra are an alien species apearing as smooth black spheres that live in the void of space, often observed attracted to areas resonant of the warp such as starship hulls and warp engines or suspected entrances to the Eldar Webway. They can manipulate and control shadows to form terrifying limbs of hooks, blades, teeth and other nightmarish shapes _


What a load of Bollocks, GW are terrible at updating their current armies why would they release another new race, makes no sense. 

Seriously are these guys on something, it sounds like ravings of someone who's a bit high or someone without much of a life.

Its bad enough we have to put up with far-fetched 6th edition rules rumors as it is with out even more far-fetched rumors, just sounds like someone is taking advantage of the whole situation.


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## TheSpore

yanlou said:


> What a load of Bollocks, GW are terrible at updating their current armies why would they release another new race, makes no sense.
> 
> Seriously are these guys on something, it sounds like ravings of someone who's a bit high.


eh its just a random piece of stiff I stumbled on figured ide share with all heretical buddies out there. Anyway I don't believe it either its silly given the same case they cant keep up on there current armies why add more to the mix.


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## Shandathe

Should they ever decide to actually release this army idea, I shall glue a sack of marbles to bases and call it an Umbra army. Smooth black spheres, how interesting...


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## yanlou

TheSpore said:


> eh its just a random piece of stiff I stumbled on figured ide share with all heretical buddies out there. Anyway I don't believe it either its silly given the same case they cant keep up on there current armies why add more to the mix.


Yep thanks for sharing it, it will help us stay clear of the site and person claiming these as legit rumors. lol.


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## Zion

Necrosis said:


> I miss the gold old days when GW told us what they were doing.


I miss when GW used to put out real hobby information. You know, like this.


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## Matheau

yanlou said:


> What a load of Bollocks, GW are terrible at updating their current armies why would they release another new race, makes no sense.


Well if they compressed all the unique chapters of Space Marines into one codex with a couple extra pages of rules for the unit selection and unique units for those chapters. Then make Chaos one codex. They wouldn't really lose access to any of those armies, but it would eliminate more than a year from the codex cycle, and....

Yeah, that's just crazy. There are still colors out there that do not yet have a unique Space Marines codex associated with them.


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## yanlou

Matheau said:


> Well if they compressed all the unique chapters of Space Marines into one codex with a couple extra pages of rules for the unit selection and unique units for those chapters. Then make Chaos one codex. They wouldn't really lose access to any of those armies, but it would eliminate more than a year from the codex cycle, and....
> 
> Yeah, that's just crazy. There are still colors out there that do not yet have a unique Space Marines codex associated with them.


I still doubt they would add such obsure race into 40k and we all know GW are SM fan-boys so i doubt they would put all the space marines in one codex.


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## TheSpore

SM make way too much money for the company they will prolly have a flippin Sons of Medusa book or some crap like that one day. Hell eventually I see all other races being purged and there only being SM vs SM no chaos just SM.

Anywya I spent a good while diggin into the 6th ed stuff and well what I have found was that I can honestly asses that its all what I call TBS(Total Bull Shit)...


1. Many of the rules come from different game sytems

2. The Validity of the source makes no sense, His account on BoK has been active only 5 days and he has made no other posts and this his only set of posts to date.

3. Not only does he seem to be a very unreliable source of info. but if you break down many of his posts on the rumours all they seem to be a is a GW hate fest attempting to get people to hop on the GW hate wagon.

4. If you look at the history of the last releases of the different editions they have all been 6 to 4 years apart.

5. It has been publicly stated before that the next ed. of 40k will not be released until all armies had been updated and well I fail to believe that what is left will just be WD updates.

ANyway Thats what I think so take it for whats its worth its just a lil too far out for the next edition, and though BoK has had a damn good track record on rumours, this one howvever is lil too far fetched. Its just funny how viral this rumour has become...


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## Zion

Some possible information on this whole Hrud thing (SOURCE):



LittleBird said:


> Alright, story time.
> 
> My "source" (let's call him Mr. Black because it sounds cool) has been leaking small tidbits to his friends for years, with the understanding that we keep things under wraps and not say anything until it becomes public knowledge on the internet. He's a cool guy and we want him to keep his job. One of the guys in my group is a poster on Warseer and he leaks like a soggy teabag, though. Mr. Black suspected this, but it wasn't that big of a deal because most of the information he shares with us is either confirmations of rumors that are already out there, it's small stuff that most people wouldn't care that much about (fluff, internal workings, etc). Well, Mr. Black has a laptop, and on that laptop are the next 2-3 unreleased codices plus plenty of other work-related stuff. When Mr. Black went to the restroom one day without locking his laptop, our leaky friend snuck a peak at the unreleased GK codex and leaked a ton of rumors onto Warseer. He didn't get caught at first, but suspicions were running high. Later as a test, Mr. Black told Leaky about some new information he'd heard from on high (all of it completely BS), and sure enough the next day it's all over Warseer under the same account name as the guy who leaked the GK rumors.
> 
> Now that we have confirmation that Leaky is a ****, he is being fed a lot of utter BS to see how gullible he is and/or how long it takes him to realize that he's been caught red-handed. I don't know Leaky's screenname but people who frequent Warseer might be able to take a stab at it.
> 
> That said, I haven't talked to Mr. Black in a few weeks and have no idea if this Hrud information is legitimate or not. Basically I'm just giving the rumor mill a bit of a warning.
> 
> TL;DR: Be wary of what you read on Warseer.


Now if this is true, then yes Mr. Black did screw up with basic information security by leaving his laptop unlocked like that, but Leaky is definitely a Grade-A Slimeball to exploit his friend's trust like that.


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## Cypher871

Ahh, who gives a shit...we'll get what we get when we get it. All these if's, but's and maybe's are making my head ache! :boredom:


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## Fallen DA

Cypher871 said:


> Ahh, who gives a shit...we'll get what we get when we get it. All these if's, but's and maybe's are making my head ache! :boredom:


All very true lol. We're doing most of GW's marketing for them :laugh: I do however like the sound of some of rumoured changes. And hope that DA are in the starter set with terrain specific pieces.


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## bitsandkits

Fallen DA said:


> And hope that DA are in the starter set with terrain specific pieces.


never gonna happen,GW dont put chapter marines in a starter set, far too narrow a market,it will be vanilla marines everytime.


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## Fallen DA

bitsandkits said:


> never gonna happen,GW dont put chapter marines in a starter set, far too narrow a market,it will be vanilla marines everytime.


I agree. More than likely they'll be vanilla marines. My only thought was simply that if GW are looking to shake up 40k that much, then there was a degree of unpredictability :dunno:


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## Shandathe

I didn't know vanilla came in blue...


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## exsulis

bitsandkits said:


> never gonna happen,GW dont put chapter marines in a starter set, far too narrow a market,it will be vanilla marines everytime.


I concur with you there unless GW did 4 of these single army boxes. Then, and only then I could see it happening. At which point it would be a selling point for a mix, and match like PP does with their start boxes.

What is far more likely is going to be generic Marines painted to be Dark Angels on the box.


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## Shandathe

GW already does single army boxes, they just call them 'Battleforce' and make sure to include enough units you don't want that the price break doesn't seem like a big one. 

EDIT: Oh, and missing something important like an HQ choice. Let's not forget that.


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## Fallen DA

Matheau said:


> Well if they compressed all the unique chapters of Space Marines into one codex with a couple extra pages of rules for the unit selection and unique units for those chapters. Then make Chaos one codex. They wouldn't really lose access to any of those armies, but it would eliminate more than a year from the codex cycle, and....
> 
> Yeah, that's just crazy. There are still colors out there that do not yet have a unique Space Marines codex associated with them.


I agree, you could simply have your Codex SM and then have all the specific Chapters updates in a separate book. It'd only need 3 or 4 pages per Chapter. There's more than enough background references out now, and you don't need 16 pages of pictures. That way they could speed up the whole process and add some flavour to other chapters. Similiar to what they've done for the Badab War IA Books. They could then do the same thing for the Chaos Legions, IG or whoever else, and everyone could be playing an up to date Army rather than the usual mis-match.


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## exsulis

IA is Forgeworld not GW Proper. Condensing all of the SM codexes would be a complete, and total nightmare. In all reality the current bloated SM release doesn't slow down the cycle. Why because each new SM release is tiny in comparison to a non-Marine release. There is little to no R&D to make new models. where-as look at the DE, and how much they are releasing. So cutting back on the constant release of SM would only hurt GW's bottom line. It is just plain stupid to think that they would do that.

Battleforces aren't a starter box. They have no rules, or how to play, no dice, no way to measure but are a nice way to expand a new person's army.


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## Katie Drake

exsulis said:


> Battleforces aren't a starter box. They have no rules, or how to play, no dice, no way to measure but are a nice way to expand a new person's army.


They're a good way to get a lot of models in one fell swoop which can be good for someone that doesn't want to start one of the armies found in AoBR, but in of themselves, no, they're not starters.


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## whiplash308

Ok, I took this with salt. Lots and lots of salt....here we go.

HOLY SHIT I don't believe any of this. I only hope for the Chaos revamp, which is a necessary thing..but with that drastic of rule changes? Uh uh, nope, nadda, zilch, nothing. This ain't happening. It'll ruin 40k. Yeah there are a few things that need to be changed, but that can easily be updated..none of this Feel No Pain garbage and all that other crap...good lord dude.


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## Khargoth

Care to elaborate on _why_ this will 'ruin' 40k, whiplash308?


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## whiplash308

Did I say ruin? I guess I read the stuff in the rumor post I didn't like (the Feel No Pain stuff), and maybe based it on everything else. My apologies, if I'm understanding it correctly then the Feel No Pain stuff bothers me, but knowing me I may have inappropriately phrased "ruin". No it won't ruin it, I may have just read it all wrong.


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## LordWaffles

TheSpore said:


> Observing a Hrud is often difficult even within a well light room due to a distortion field of unknown origin emanating from the Hrud that prevents the eye from focusing on it. In addition the limbs of a Hrud have a bone structure similar to the human spine allowing the limbs to bend in any direction (hence the nickname "bendies"). They also exude various poisons from their skin. Their bodies liquefy rapidly upon death - conveniently making detailing the creature impossible.
> 
> Another notable quality amongst the race is that they produce innate entropic fields from their bodies. This has the side effect of aging their surroundings leading to objects such as crops turning to dust due to prolonged exposure and Humans suffering from premature aging.


They sound like my in-laws. BUDUM TISH.

And they conveniently clean themselves up upon death? Neat.


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## jaysen

I would LOVE to see the Chaos Space Marine Legion armies return with new models. I liked the Noice Marine models and Lucius, but want more Emperor's Children.


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## Words_of_Truth

What's going to be the difference between Chaos Legions and Chaos Renegade Space Marines?


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## Serpion5

Chaos Legions is suposed to have more emphasis on the _Legions_ as the name would suggest. As in fielding an army based on one of the nine legions will be far more fluffy and hopefully it will bring them back to what they were intended to be; Servants of the Dark Gods.

There is also talk of it including human cultists and/or traitor guard units.


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## Fallen DA

Serpion5 said:


> Chaos Legions is suposed to have more emphasis on the _Legions_ as the name would suggest. As in fielding an army based on one of the nine legions will be far more fluffy and hopefully it will bring them back to what they were intended to be; Servants of the Dark Gods.
> 
> There is also talk of it including human cultists and/or traitor guard units.


Sounds good to me if they do it? FW have some nice models that could represent Chaos Guard, not that making conversion sets for GW's existing Guard Units should be that difficult? He says.....


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## Words_of_Truth

Good good, my army is Khorne based, so that should be good


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## exsulis

Serpion5 said:


> Chaos Legions is suposed to have more emphasis on the _Legions_ as the name would suggest. As in fielding an army based on one of the nine legions will be far more fluffy and hopefully it will bring them back to what they were intended to be; Servants of the Dark Gods.


As funny as this may sound but that is contradictory.

As there is only ONE Chaos legion left per the fluff, the rest are just warbands.


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## Words_of_Truth

exsulis said:


> As funny as this may sound but that is contradictory.
> 
> As there is only ONE Chaos legion left per the fluff, the rest are just warbands.


That would mean the whole codex idea is pointless then? So what is it?


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## exsulis

Just saying that people are making a contradictory statement when they say chaos legion armies are fluffy. 

CSM for the most part have been nothing but small warbands since 2nd edition(maybe before, I wasn't playing in RT) it was only the 3.5 that introduced that abominable build your own daemon prince, and legion specific sub-list.

So from a fluff stand point the current 4th ed codex more fluffy minus a few warbands specific units, which the 3.0 csm dex didn't have either. I wonder what people's feelings would have been if we had just jumped from the 3.0 csm to the current 4.0 csm.


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## Katie Drake

exsulis said:


> Just saying that people are making a contradictory statement when they say chaos legion armies are fluffy.
> 
> CSM for the most part have been nothing but small warbands since 2nd edition(maybe before, I wasn't playing in RT) it was only the 3.5 that introduced that abominable build your own daemon prince, and legion specific sub-list.
> 
> So from a fluff stand point the current 4th ed codex more fluffy minus a few warbands specific units, which the 3.0 csm dex didn't have either. I wonder what people's feelings would have been if we had just jumped from the 3.0 csm to the current 4.0 csm.


Right, except nobody cares about the old (and new) fluff. People _liked_ having unified Legions.


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## Fallen

exsulis said:


> As there is only ONE Chaos legion left per the fluff, the rest are just warbands.





Katie Drake said:


> Right, except nobody cares about the old (and new) fluff. People _liked_ having unified Legions.


wouldnt there be warbands of "iron warriors" (or any other legion) that would still have its "chapter traits" rules wise?



perhaps an IWs one that allows you to take Oblits as elites (like the MotF with dreadnoughts)....


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## LukeValantine

A warband can be anywhere from 30 or so to 200+ marines, last time I checked I only use 50 marines in a 2000pt game so whats wrong with them all using some sort of chapter specific rule if they all come from the same csm faction.


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## Katie Drake

Fallen said:


> wouldnt there be warbands of "iron warriors" (or any other legion) that would still have its "chapter traits" rules wise?


There could be, absolutely. In fact, depending on what fluff you're reading, it's not uncommon to have warbands be made up primarily, even entirely from members of a single Legion. The Night Lord novels follow a group of Night Lords and during the course of the novels they end up working alongside members of other Legions and Renegade Chapters and so on, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to have "Chapter Tactic"-esque rules that accompany specific HQs and so on.


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## TheSpore

the fluff allows the use of CSM legions, like it said they are warbands that mostly are made up of what is left of the legions thertore say if you were to use a EC warband of the flawless host they would follow a set of rules based on the EC its kind of the same idea of running WE as BA or using the GK dex for 1K sons


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## Words_of_Truth

New models a possibility? Maybe a new Kharn?


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## turel2

I would love to see CSM Legion Codexes.

Why did they break the legions into warbands of randoms?

They can't manage to stay in a legion of like minded maniacs, but they can handle being in a warband of completely different legion marines with nothing in common.

That sounds rubbish to me.


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## exsulis

Katie Drake said:


> Right, except nobody cares about the old (and new) fluff. People _liked_ having unified Legions.


People also liked having craftworld eldar with silly-to no drawbacks too, same thing happened with the 4.0 sm codex. So why should CSM be any different?


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## TheSpore

Its high time Chaos got some love, they are the second popular army in the game anyway. With how important to the fluff they play GW sure has given them the shaft.


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## Serpion5

Most of the 4th ed codexes fucked up what had gone before. 

If rumours of Chaos and Eldar future releases are anything to go by, then by the sounds of it both problems will be solved. 

Hopefully.


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## Katie Drake

exsulis said:


> People also liked having craftworld eldar with silly-to no drawbacks too, same thing happened with the 4.0 sm codex. So why should CSM be any different?


They could make Legion/Craftworld rules that are balanced? That seems like the best way to solve the issue, no?


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## exsulis

Haha, GW balanced?


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## LordWaffles

Katie Drake said:


> They could make Legion/Craftworld rules that are balanced? That seems like the best way to solve the issue, no?


I thought army-wide infiltrate for the loss of vehicles was pretty stellar in terms of balance.

In other news, GW isn't concerned with balance, they're concerned with what sells.


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## Katie Drake

LordWaffles said:


> I thought army-wide infiltrate for the loss of vehicles was pretty stellar in terms of balance.
> 
> In other news, GW isn't concerned with balance, they're concerned with what sells.


Sure, but the newer books are a lot better. Obviously I'm not talking about perfect balance because that'll never happen.


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