# New info from 'Massacre'!



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

This isn't as much spoilers, but I'm currently looking through 'Massacre' and wanted to give the highlights. We finally got some years put on the timeline (when stuff happened).

On page 19 we see when the 2 Lost Legions are "lost" since they are listed "ALL DATA REDACTED" and the action is performed by the Space Wolves (which is after Monarchia apparently and contradicts _TFH_). The year 160 of the great Crusade (964.M30) is when Monarchia is burned. 17 years later Alpharius is found. Though I'm not certain, but it feels like the compliance of Isstvan by the Raven Guard is placed wrong. Also we see that Signus, the Martian Civil War and Prospero happened BEFORE Isstvan III even had begun. 

The Death Guard had lost approximately 25,000 Astartes during I3 & I5 in total (P. 48). The SoH had lost 30,000 warriors during I3 alone, so they were cowards hiding behind the others (P. 56). And apparently SoH had Chapters (at least twelve, P. 57) despite it mentioning in 'Betrayal' they had none. World Eaters lost most with the high numbers of 35,000 (P. 60). They apparently had at least 9 Chapters (P. 63).

The Iron Hands were believed to have 113,000 Astartes during Isstvan V (P. 73). Also their companies appears to be called Orders and yeah, Chapters are called Clans, but that we already knew. 

I like the idea that the first Terran Night Lords were prisoners with pale skin, due to their imprisoment! Their companies could vary from 100 to 1000, and apparently word for the squad varied in each Company. So its nots definite that they were using Claw (like the NL-trilogy might suggest), but Claw for squads and Talon-Master for captains seems the most common. Its apparently impossible to tell if the NL were only 90,000 or around 120,000, but because they were a fractured Legion, I would imagine they went between those numbers and never had a steady fraction (P. 99). 

Salamanders had around 100-200 under each captain in their companies (P. 119). They had in the beginning 7 "Chapters" for each great city of their homeplanet, with a Lord Commander/Protector commanding them. (P. 120) They are believed to have been 83,000 who ventured to I5, and some believe 98% of them were killed. Apparently at full strenght they were 89,000 (P. 121).

Word Bearers companies numbered between 500-3,000 (meaning Argel Tals 7th was relatively small). (P. 142) They comprised of 140,000 at the time of I5 apparently (P.143).

Maloghurts, Eidolon, Calas Typhon are playable character,s perhaps upcoming models. Kharn as well, and is considered as First Captain apparently. 

Death Guard apparently switched around with Chapters being Companies, and Great Companies being Chapters. (P. 226)


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Calas Typhon are playable characters perhaps upcoming models.


Let it be! Let it be! :yahoo:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Also we see that Signus, the Martian Civil War and Prospero happened BEFORE Isstvan III even had begun.


The Martian Civil War surprises me, but the other two don't. In fact, during 'False Gods' we see Horus talking about how Russ is enroute to Prospero. Where Signus is concerned, I always thought it was implied that Horus felt the need to have Sanguinius taken care of before committing with Isstvan.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Prospero always happened before Istvaan III, Horus interfered with Russ whilst still appearing to be loyal afterall. Magnus is already sheltering in the Eye before Calth takes place. 

Signus takes place after Calth and the events of Betrayer however, which themselves occurred after the Istvaan massacres. 

So i think Signus is the only real timeline slip up.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I had always assumed that the orders for Signus were delivered prior to Isstvan III being carried out, as Horus would have needed Imperial authority to get Sanguinius to go out there - much like with Russ being ordered to Prospero. Similarly, the orders Guilliman received from Horus - to muster at Calth and await the Word Bearers - had to have come before Isstvan III.

The actual _events_ of Signus and Calth could have occurred simultaneously with Isstvan V or slightly after, with communications lag caused by the Warp (and a similar isolation) leaving Guilliman and Sanguinius ignorant of greater events until it was too late... but, either way, the timeline fits for me.

The Martian civil war? Not so much.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> The Martian Civil War surprises me, but the other two don't. In fact, during 'False Gods' we see Horus talking about how Russ is enroute to Prospero. Where Signus is concerned, I always thought it was implied that Horus felt the need to have Sanguinius taken care of before committing with Isstvan.


For me it has always been a whole mess of things happened before and after but now it feels more confirmed to me! 

Concerning Signus, I would imagine since that entire area is Warp-inflicted, time doesn't pass around as it usually should. They arrive there before Isstvan III (as I remember the first parts actually is about Horus fighting the rebellion). Then we have the SW arriving talking about Prospero being handled and they wonder what transpire there. Then we have the ending coming to after the events of _Betrayer_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Regarding the martian civil war happening before Istvaan III, don't Sigismund and Camba-Diaz go to Mars with orders to specifically secure armour, weapons etc for the upcoming war against Horus?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I thought that the WBs had managed to go from 50,000 at the time of _First Heretic_ to close to 250,000 by the start of the Heresy. Could have sworn it's mentioned in one of the books, but can't remember which.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It's more like from ~100,000 to ~160,000, I believe. I want to say 'Aurelian' covers it, but I can't be sure.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I thought that the WBs had managed to go from 50,000 at the time of _First Heretic_ to close to 250,000 by the start of the Heresy. Could have sworn it's mentioned in one of the books, but can't remember which.


As _P_ said, it's more like 100k to around 150k. It's covered in _The First Heretic_ where the entire Legion (100k) gathers in the ashes of Monarchia. Lorgar then has several decades to prepare for the Heresy and thus is able to substantially increase his Legion's numbers (despite the Word Bearers racking up the most victories of any Legion during the last few decades of the Great Crusade).


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## TheFallen1 (Oct 16, 2013)

Would the great companies and chapter discrepancies, simply be book errors?


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2013)

forkmaster said:


> On page 19 we see when the 2 Lost Legions are "lost" since they are listed "ALL DATA REDACTED" and the action is performed by the Space Wolves (which is after Monarchia apparently and contradicts _TFH_).


There's nothing that says these are the events of the lost legions, especially considering the third REDACTED event later on and the existance of the Night of the Wolf incident, which was most likely one of those two earlier events. More likely, these two were put in just to mess with us and the actual removal of the missing legions occurred much earlier.



> Word Bearers companies numbered between 500-3,000 (meaning Argel Tals 7th was relatively small). (P. 142) They comprised of 140,000 at the time of I5 apparently (P.143).


And in the next line it says that these figures were a lie, and that the Word Bearers true size was far greater than that.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Regarding the martian civil war happening before Istvaan III, don't Sigismund and Camba-Diaz go to Mars with orders to specifically secure armour, weapons etc for the upcoming war against Horus?


In Mechanicum, the initial conversation between Dorn and Malcador (2/3 the way through the book) indicates the timing is between Istvaan III and V when Sigismund is dispatched, with no indication that Magnus has yet breached the Terran Webway gate.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But Istvaan III has clearly happened yeah? Don't have _Mechanicum_ with me in the sand box to check.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> But Istvaan III has clearly happened yeah? Don't have _Mechanicum_ with me in the sand box to check.


Yeah, their discussion is about Horus turning traitor, but at least Dorn has 13 legions to work with in defense of Terra. When Dorn and Malcador are discussing who will go to Mars, Malcador even asks about having a chapter of the Word Bearers still in the Terran system join them.

Granted, I wish the poor soul luck who wants to reconcile this with the events in The Outcast Dead.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

There is no reconciling it. The reason offered thus far was, as I understood it, awful. Frankly, it did not strike me so much as a "this is what we meant" explanation, but more as a "we screwed up, and this is the best fix" plot device.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

What is this 'Massacre' you are speaking about?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Horus Heresy Book Two: Massacre.


From Forge World 

Clicky.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> There is no reconciling it. The reason offered thus far was, as I understood it, awful. Frankly, it did not strike me so much as a "this is what we meant" explanation, but more as a "we screwed up, and this is the best fix" plot device.


Precisely what I think as well. The explanation is so shit, it's untrue, and even then it doesn't fully make sense or fit all the gaps.


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