# Custodian vs Primarch (First Heretic SPOILERS)



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

In the scene before Vendatha is used as a sacrifice in First Heretic, he assaults and kills three high ranking Word Bearers all in front of their primarch Lorgar. The books says that Vendatha knows his chances of survival are slim, but he sees that Lorgars muscles are relaxed and not ready for an attack, and he views that as enough of an advantage to potentially survive the fight. 

If Vendatha had been quicker to kill Xaphen and had not been blind sided by Argel Tal, could he have defeated Lorgar in battle? 

In terms of a straight up battle between Custodian and Primarch, are there any Custodians that could best any of Primarchs?


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

If there was some miracle that happened that he caught all 4 off guard AND killed them before they could react, sure then maybe. But that's next to impossible. The primarch is far faster than a custodian. I could see him killing the 3 marines sure, but not the primarch


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

In one of the Heresy short story anthologies(Or possibly Nemesis),the Custodian from Blood Games (Who IIRC is a very senior member of the Custodes) and another Custodian,were ready to take on Rogal Dorn. Dorn thought that they were adorable. So yea 1 on 1 a Primarch is going to wipe the floor with a Custode. However a squad of Custodes vs a Primarch might be an interesting fight.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> In the scene before Vendatha is used as a sacrifice in First Heretic, he assaults and kills three high ranking Word Bearers all in front of their primarch Lorgar.


Right...three high ranking SM who are totally unprepared for his attack...Lorgar too is completely shocked 

Some SM captains (Sigismund for example) are able to cut down a dozen enemy Astartes in battle without breaking a sweat. Aaron has stated that Vendatha is elite even for a custodes (he's sent to watch over a primarch). 

However, I don't think killing three SM and then having his face shot off by the fourth puts Vendatha anywhere near the level of a primarch. 



> In terms of a straight up battle between Custodian and Primarch, are there any Custodians that could best any of Primarchs?


Maybe Constantin Valdor could put up a decent fight but I highly doubt he'd be able beat one in a fight to the death. Sanguinius, Angron, Russ, Corax, the Lion, the Khan, Fulgrim, Horus would probably all smear him


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I would also like to add that not all Primarchs are built equal in every measure. Lorgar is reckoned to probably be amongst the weakest, if not weakest, in a straight up fight at this point of the story.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

In general no, but some of the weaker Primarchs like Alpharius might not do very well. I think in "Legion" he almost got taken out by a human (such a stupid book). 

Probably the best Word Bearer was Argel Tal. But even an enraged Argel Tal vs Angron (who was toying with him just to get a rise out of him) did little more than make Angron laugh. 
*
CREATURE!*

I love that.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Not on the Custodes best day and the primarch's worst day could they come close. Some of the feats that the primarchs are capable of would indicate that they all, including Alpharius/Omegon have the power and skill to smear even a bunch of Custodes into the floor. A custodes might be more skilled with a sword or halberd, but they simply do not have the strength, speed or power to inflict any major damage before before they are swatted aside.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> In general no, but some of the weaker Primarchs like Alpharius might not do very well. I think in "Legion" he almost got taken out by a human (such a stupid book).


Awesome book actually in most peoples opinion(best in the series for me), but hey, opinions. Either way, Alpharius is never actually seen fighting in the novel, it's Sheed Ranko at the end that is fighting Chayne. As of the moment, we have absolutely nothing to base Alpharius or Omegons skill in combat on.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Unless the give them fluff like the GK's got with Kaldor Draigo, I don't think they have anyone of the caliber to handle a Primarch one on one. Now a platoon of Custodes might be another factor depending on the primarch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The only way I see any amount of Custodians taking down a Primarch is if the situation is similar to what Angron faced against the Space Wolves in _Betrayer_. Up close, in melee, they will just get slaughtered.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> As of the moment, we have absolutely nothing to base Alpharius or Omegons skill in combat on.


It's implied that they're one soul in two bodies. Would make sense that in the case of Alph and Omeg, the power of one primarch has been distributed between two bodies. Each would sort of be like a half-primarch (even a half-primarch would smash multiple custodes).

Vendatha kills three SM and then dies. I believe on Istvaan, Corax's killcount is probably in the hundreds. 



Zooey72 said:


> In general no, but some of the weaker Primarchs like Alpharius might not do very well. I think in "Legion" he almost got taken out by a human (such a stupid book).


 LOL no...

In legion the human barely pierces Sheed Ranko's (an AL captain's) armour. He then gets bisected. I suspect Sheed Ranko is taking the human lightly before the blow lands.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Lorgar as of betrayer, was soloing entire platoons of ultramarines effortlessly. He would effortless crush, tear, and rip them apart with his TK. Cannons shells from a thunderhawk couldnt even touch him, his TK was also a powerful self sustained shiels (tanked a titan plasma cannln point blank with no damage at all).


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that Valdor and Horus were sparring partners - If so - He must be able to hold his own. If any Custodian were capable of downing a Primarch, I'd put my money on him.

Also; where does it state that it's Sheed Ranko at the end of Legion?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's implied that they're one soul in two bodies. Would make sense that in the case of Alph and Omeg, the power of one primarch has been distributed between two bodies. Each would sort of be like a half-primarch (even a half-primarch would smash multiple custodes).


Could be the case, but I'll wait out until we actually see them in combat. But as you said at the end, even a Primarch at half power would be more than a match for any Astartes or Custode.



dark angel said:


> I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that Valdor and Horus were sparring partners - If so - He must be able to hold his own. If any Custodian were capable of downing a Primarch, I'd put my money on him.
> 
> Also; where does it state that it's Sheed Ranko at the end of Legion?


I've seen the Valdor/Horus sparring partner thing pop up now and again, but I've never been able to find a source for it, nor have I seen anyone else find one. 

It's heavily implied to be Sheed Ranko by the 'That's all you get' comment. He says it to Chayne earlier in the book when Ranko has snuck up on him and he lightly embeds his sword in his armour, Ranko tells him 'That's all you get'. Then at the end, Chayne get's his sword stuck in 'Alpharius' armour, who then looks down at him, and repeats the phrase. Ranko seems to be the best impersonator of the Primarchs as well, having impersonated them throughout _Legion_ and other novels.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's implied that they're one soul in two bodies. Would make sense that in the case of Alph and Omeg, the power of one primarch has been distributed between two bodies. Each would sort of be like a half-primarch (even a half-primarch would smash multiple custodes).
> 
> Vendatha kills three SM and then dies. I believe on Istvaan, Corax's killcount is probably in the hundreds.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. I have made an attempt to forget that book as much as I can. I swore I would never read another Abnett book again, but "Know no Fear" ended up being decent. Not that he did a great job, it just is pretty hard to screw up such an important part of the Heresy (although he really tried imo).

I go along with the whole idea that the Alpha Legion twins had to split their power. The whole "I am Alpharius" thing would not be possible if the twins were the size of Angron. They can pass for Astartes so that shows how their physical power goes. Also, Alpharius said to Horus in "Deliverence Lost" that he knew he wasn't the strongest of the Primarchs and info was the only way to keep himself relevant.

I don't see a custodes standing up to either of them, but I also don't see them punching holes through Land Raiders like Vulkan.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Size means nothing in WH40k.

Alpharius alone could probably be as strong as Russ/stronger.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Correlating the size of a primarch to their power is inaccurate, and not sound. In deliverance lost when the primarch generic templates were being analyzed they comment on the XXth one that it is missing the growth hormone modifier found in the rest.

Thus there reduced size is was orchestrated on purpose by the emperor, genetically. Perhaps since their intentended role was information and being unnoticed, he wanted them to be able to blend in and pass for a marine.

Additionally Angron is one of the shortest, and smallest primarchs that we have seen in comparison to his brothers. Yet his strength and power is unquestionably one of the greatest, size is meaningless in regards to power.

Alpharius wants others to underestimate him, it is not surprising he would tell horus that he is weak. He doesnt want horus to be threatened by him, or to have any paranoia about him which would only draw attention.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

fine fine fine. The actual height of a Primarch was not what I was talking about anyway. I meant more physical strength and by extension battle prowress.

But the one thing that is just wrong is to say that Alpharius is secretly as strong as Vulkan and has the combat ability of Fulgrim or the Lion. The concept of all the Primarchs was to give personality to the Legions. For them to say "Magnus is stronger than Ferrus Manus" would ruin the concept of the table top game. Each Primarch has his niche so that you can have a variety of what it is you want to play.

Games Workshop would not change/mess with their huge money making miniature racket. At this point everyone has their favorites. There is no argument over which Primarch is better, only that maybe Horus was THEE best because he was chosen by the Emp.

So no, Alpharius is a physicaly weak primarch. That is his concept. His strengths lie in other places. As are primarchs like Magnus, Lorgar, and Corax. To put Lorgar on the same level as Lion'el Johnson as battle Prowress would ruin the first legion. I am not saying Lorgar could not win in a duel with the Lion. He just won't if he goes heads up using his crozius versus the Lion's sword.

Edited to add:

I believe Magnus is the tallest primarch. But he is far from the strongest. He is a bean pole. If they made Magnus able to hold up a Titan that was trying to step on him (like Angron) it would ruin the genre of the primarchs. Instead he can just nuke a Titan like he did in "A 1000 sons".


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> So no, Alpharius is a physicaly weak primarch. That is his concept. His strengths lie in other places. As are primarchs like Magnus, Lorgar, and Corax. To put Lorgar on the same level as Lion'el Johnson as battle Prowress would ruin the first legion. I am not saying Lorgar could not win in a duel with the Lion. He just won't if he goes heads up using his crozius versus the Lion's sword.


And yet, Fulgrim, the Lion and the Khan are all described as being master swordsmen. Both Angron and Russ are seen as heavy brawlers, Sanguinius and Horus as damn near martial perfection, Vulkan and Ferrus both use big hammers and really on strength over finesse and so on and so forth, none of them occupy a niche really, not even Magnus now that Lorgar has had his psychic awakening. Alpharius can quite easily be a master swordsman as well, or a lightning claw ninja like Corax and Night Haunter. 

There's nothing 'wrong' with it at all. And I'm with Lux on this one....holy shit, never thought I'd say that sentence......the size of the Primarch doesn't equal win. Ferrus and Vulkan are both large and strong as hell. But Alpharius is probably going to be one of the most agile of them all due to his size, which would be a nightmare to fight against. Just because he's smaller, doesn't mean he's not at the insane agility level and combat ability as the other Primarchs.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Lux said:


> Additionally Angron is one of the shortest, and smallest primarchs that we have seen in comparison to his brothers.


Ummm... source for this please? And the artwork for _The Primarchs_ anthology where he is _leaning forward_ doesn't count. Especially when he is described in _False Gods_ I think as being as tall as Horus, but much broader.

Though other than that, I totally agree with your post. Size does not equal power in 40k. Especially where warp infused demigods are concerned. I am willing to bet that all of the primarchs are significantly stronger, faster, more agile etc. than any regular being with the the same physical build, musculature etc. would be.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Until we actually see one of the AL primarchs in battle instead of a proxy we'd be going around in circles trying to match them against their big brothers. Hopefully we'll see it soon, but I doubt it. Upfront combat doesn't match their style. 

But while we're on the subject of which of the primarchs is the strongest/ tallest/brainiest, lets compile a list. We know for a fact that Vulcan is the strongest and Angron is the angriest, but what about the rest?


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yet, Fulgrim, the Lion and the Khan are all described as being master swordsmen. Both Angron and Russ are seen as heavy brawlers, Sanguinius and Horus as damn near martial perfection, Vulkan and Ferrus both use big hammers and really on strength over finesse and so on and so forth, none of them occupy a niche really, not even Magnus now that Lorgar has had his psychic awakening. Alpharius can quite easily be a master swordsman as well, or a lightning claw ninja like Corax and Night Haunter.
> 
> There's nothing 'wrong' with it at all. And I'm with Lux on this one....holy shit, never thought I'd say that sentence......the size of the Primarch doesn't equal win. Ferrus and Vulkan are both large and strong as hell. But Alpharius is probably going to be one of the most agile of them all due to his size, which would be a nightmare to fight against. Just because he's smaller, doesn't mean he's not at the insane agility level and combat ability as the other Primarchs.


And secretly Angron is the mastermind behind the entire Heresy. His cunning and subterfuge is what is truly the power behind the throne. He is the grand puppet master. /sarcasm off

The other part of the Primarchs is they have personality. Not too much difference between The Iron Warriors and the imperial fists. Heads up between their primarchs it would be like fighting a clone. It depends on what you prefer to play. Do you want the Angel of wrath that brings down god's fury (Sang). Or do you want to play Sparticus? (Angron). Not much difference between the 2 in a heads up fight. Just personality, one is majestic, the other a rabid animal.

For you to put some kind of silly martial skills on Alpharius because you like Alpha Legion is just not accurate. I am sure he has something up his sleeve if he gets caught in a fight, but his style is not to get caught (and I am willing to bet if he does get caught he will have a way to escape rather than win a heads up fight).

He stole the tech that the Emp. created to make Astartes. That is his strength. He didn't get it from frontal assault on the Raven's Guard (even though he heavily outnumbered them).

Why stop at him being on Corax/Night Haunter level? Lets make him a psycher like Magnus with the leadership abilities of Pappa Smurf? Using the "well, we don't know what he can do" supposes that he can be the best at everything. It is closer to the truth is that he is not even any where close to the other primarchs power levels because he had to split what power he was given with his twin when the Emp. created them.

No other Primarch could have stolen that tech. Corax would have destroyed it and his Legion before letting it fall into traitor hands (he swore that to the Emp himself). That is what makes Alpha Legion unique. Don't mess up the legion by making them some kind of D&D lvl 99 monk/warrior/priest multiclass


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Upfront combat doesn't match their style.


Guilliman thought many things about them were set in stone. 

That's the beauty of the AL legion. They can switch their tactics around in a heartbeat and go from being non-confrontational, using proxies in their stead, to attacking head in a World Eaters'esque fashion.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I was going to let this thread die, but had to throw one more thing in. If faith is meaningless in the warp than what is "A Living Saint" from the Sisters of Battle other than a Greater Daemon of the Emperor? (or perhaps a Daemon Princess).

I already asked this Lux, but didn't get an answer. Why make tomes of human skin? Why kill people in a percise way to get the approval of the gods? Human Ingethal had to dance around to summon Daemon Ingethal - why? If faith and ritual mean nothing and have no value in the warp who cares about symbols and numbers. It is a distraction really the way you put it. 6,7,8,9... meaningless in your version. Get back to rage, rot, change, and pleasure you lazy *Bleeps*.

What saved Keeler from being consumed in balefire in "False Gods" when Sinderman accidently summoned a Daemon? Was she a closet psycher? How did she know to go to the Eisentsien and ask Garro for help? Where does her power come from? She was surrounded by 4 full legion's armadas with the best astropaths in the imperium, but not one was able to pick up on what she was doing in the warp? How did she do that without the favor of her 'god'? Unless you want to make a claim that Keeler is a psycher on the Malcador level, which I don't think many people would agree with.

A martyr makes a powerful symbol. Not to mix RL with a game, but Christianity is based off it. The Emp. knows that by being a broken corpse on a Golden Throne he will accumulate the power that he needs to win "The End Game".



On an unrelated note, I want to go on the record. There is going to be a confrontation between "The Blessed Lady" and Keeler. I can not see the writers passing that up. Now that Cyrene is "dead" they can wisk her away to whatever brainfart that Dan Abnett has as far as the Cabal goes. Ultimately you know they are going to have to meet each other on Terra (or even sooner).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> fine fine fine. The actual height of a Primarch was not what I was talking about anyway. I meant more physical strength and by extension battle prowress.
> 
> But the one thing that is just wrong is to say that Alpharius is secretly as strong as Vulkan and has the combat ability of Fulgrim or the Lion. The concept of all the Primarchs was to give personality to the Legions. For them to say "Magnus is stronger than Ferrus Manus" would ruin the concept of the table top game. Each Primarch has his niche so that you can have a variety of what it is you want to play.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked the AL uses espionage, they are the jason bournes the maxwell smart's the James bond.

Saying Alpharius is weak is stupid.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Last time I checked the AL uses espionage, they are the jason bournes the maxwell smart's the James bond.
> 
> Saying Alpharius is weak is stupid.


What are you talking about? I said exactly what you said.

They are masters of Espionage, but they are not the physical fighters that their brothers are. What would be stupid is if you are implying they are some kind of hybrid primarch that can do anything. They have their niche, espionage. The twins are not the Khan, or Fulgrim, or even Corax. Any attempt to make them that way turns them into a D&D lvl 99 magic user/fighter/thief multi calss.

Based off the premise that all of the primarchs were given the same amount of power when the Emp. created them than Alpharius is by far the weakest primarch because he had to share his power with his brother.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Zooey72 said:


> What are you talking about? I said exactly what you said.
> 
> They are masters of Espionage, but they are not the physical fighters that their brothers are. What would be stupid is if you are implying they are some kind of hybrid primarch that can do anything. They have their niche, espionage. The twins are not the Khan, or Fulgrim, or even Corax. Any attempt to make them that way turns them into a D&D lvl 99 magic user/fighter/thief multi calss.
> 
> Based off the premise that all of the primarchs were given the same amount of power when the Emp. created them than Alpharius is by far the weakest primarch because he had to share his power with his brother.


No you didn't Jason Bourne is a master of hand to hand combat. He's also skilled in about 50 different ways of killing someone.

Maxwell smart is resourceful a skilled marksmen and capable in hand to hand.

Bond is well bond. uses whatever advantage he can find.


They might not have the stealth skills of Night haunter or corax but they do have it.
They might not understand siege warfare like Dorn or peturabo But their nature of combat requires them to understand it.

I will concede that their combat skills are on the same level as angrons sangs or horus but that is for different reasons.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> If faith is meaningless in the warp than what is "A Living Saint" from the Sisters of Battle other than a Greater Daemon of the Emperor? (or perhaps a Daemon Princess).
> 
> What saved Keeler from being consumed in balefire in "False Gods" when Sinderman accidently summoned a Daemon? Was she a closet psycher? How did she know to go to the Eisentsien and ask Garro for help? Where does her power come from? She was surrounded by 4 full legion's armadas with the best astropaths in the imperium, but not one was able to pick up on what she was doing in the warp? How did she do that without the favor of her 'god'? Unless you want to make a claim that Keeler is a psycher on the Malcador level, which I don't think many people would agree with.
> 
> A martyr makes a powerful symbol. Not to mix RL with a game, but Christianity is based off it. The Emp. knows that by being a broken corpse on a Golden Throne he will accumulate the power that he needs to win "The End Game".


I appreciate where you're trying to take this, but disagree with where it leads. It's cannon that emotions are reflected in the warp, which give the Chaos Gods their power. However, what BL has shown Imperial Saints to manifest in the HH is distinctly different than any warp power called by either psykers, sorcerers, or just plain accidents. I've had several discussions on this and the whole 'faith' argument still doesn't mesh with what happens with Keeler or any of the other HH saints. The closest I feel we can get is the Emperor is actually guiding/aiding these folks actively, not having the saints draw on some generic faith-generated warp power.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I appreciate where you're trying to take this, but disagree with where it leads. It's cannon that emotions are reflected in the warp, which give the Chaos Gods their power. However, what BL has shown Imperial Saints to manifest in the HH is distinctly different than any warp power called by either psykers, sorcerers, or just plain accidents. I've had several discussions on this and the whole 'faith' argument still doesn't mesh with what happens with Keeler or any of the other HH saints. The closest I feel we can get is the Emperor is actually guiding/aiding these folks actively, not having the saints draw on some generic faith-generated warp power.


Either way you cut it you support my theory though. If the Emperor was helping Keeler he allowed her to believe he was a god and she spread his faith (he did the same with Lorgar). She was the "Johny Apple Seed" of the future God Emperor religion, and what she was doing was encouraged by the Emperor through his direct intervention on her behalf.

There is the matter of whether the Emperor even knew I3 was taking place. And if he did why didn't he try to stop it? Why would he only help Keeler and not save the Astartes still loyal to him and also catch Horus while he was vulnerable attacking the fortress?

I am not a huge Emperor fan, but I like my theory. I can't stand Abnett's writing, and "Legion" is probably the worst book I have ever read, however what John Gramaticus said about the Emperor I thought was revealing. Something along the lines of he saw a glimpse into the Emperor's mind and what he saw terrified him.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

dark angel said:


> I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that Valdor and Horus were sparring partners - If so - He must be able to hold his own. If any Custodian were capable of downing a Primarch, I'd put my money on him.


No one has been able to produce a source confirming this...

There was a whole thread about it and not a single confirming source could be found



Malus Darkblade said:


> That's the beauty of the AL legion. They can switch their tactics around in a heartbeat and go from being non-confrontational, using proxies in their stead, to attacking head in a World Eaters'esque fashion.


No...the Alpha Legion need to be limited, to have flaws and weaknesses...things that they can do but can't do as well as other legions, otherwise the AL becomes even worse Mary Sues than the SW or UM



Zooey72 said:


> What would be stupid is if you are implying they are some kind of hybrid primarch that can do anything. They have their niche, espionage. The twins are not the Khan, or Fulgrim, or even Corax. Any attempt to make them that way turns them into a D&D lvl 99 magic user/fighter/thief multi calss.


I agree with this. Most primarchs can be pretty versatile, but they have their strengths and weaknesses. The twins can't be masters at everything. They are masters at espionage and decent in other areas. Angron would wreck them in close combat, Perturabo would be far superior at besieging, Dorn at defending etc. 



Lux said:


> Additionally Angron is one of the shortest, and smallest primarchs that we have seen in comparison to his brothers.


Based on what? The cover of The Primarchs? As has been pointed out, he's leaning forward and he's next to Magnus, a giant even among the primarchs


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

I think it's been pretty well established at this point from the Heresy books that Primarchs were for all intents and purposes, immortal.

They're only ever seen being killed by other Primarchs, and even that is a feat.

Fulgrim gets his head pretty much exploded by a sniper and walks away from it.

Magnus was literally broken over Russ' knee.

Lion impaled Curze with his sword, and Curze kept fighting. Not to mention what HE done to the Lion.

Who knows what Vulkan went through, but I'm quite certain it will have been enough to kill normal Astartes 100 times over.

I'm fairly certain atleast one Primarch has had their entire face melted off, only to come back like it wasn't nothing.

Only problem with this is Dorn, and how he dies. A boarding action, against....well it's never stated. But given how strong and unkillable we've seen Primarchs to be, they'll have to change that.


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## XXTerminus DecreeXX (Jan 25, 2014)

I'd have to say that all of the custodians didn't stand a chance but constantin valdor if i remember correctly was the leader of the custodes and was the height of alpharius/omegon. With all that given i think valdor would have still lost. They're primarchs for cryin out loud


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