# An Open Letter to the Community



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I've been trying to think of how to best say this for a while now. And really it comes down to this: tha thing you're doing? Yeah, that. Stop it.

Now I'm not saying we all need to say we need to all march in step and nly lile the same things, but to act so venomously about everything you don't like is not only reflecting poorly on the community as a whole but is the very reason GW doesn't like dealing with us outside of how much money we give them.

It's okay to try different things and to even dislike how some people hand rules or fluff in their codices, but to react to every little thing like they are personally responsible for every bad thing you've ever suffered from is not only immature, but inappropiate. These are human beings and as such make mistakes and don't always have the best judgement. But they're trying their best to bring us new modes, new rules, new LIFE to our armies, and even if we don't agree with the result some respect sould be given to them for their efforts rather than just venom.

So please, my fellow wargaming kin, can we stop overreacting to every little thing and instead ignore the parts that we don't like and enjoy the things we do? If we do this, we may just find that this hobby is still just as fun, if not more so because we're approaching it with the focus of having fun instead of being fixated on percieved slights that aren't even being levied at us personally.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

But then where would we get our ranting happy funtimes?

Anyway a serious response: Do not expect others to change just for your benefit. Change yourself. Do what I do, when you see a flamewar do not enter. When something turns into a flamewar, politely leave. There are plenty of stupid sites/ideas/pictures/blogs/whatever. You do not have to be involved in any of it and in fact by choosing Heresy you have already avoided numerous hurdles of other sites. 

And in your stance do not be a hypocrite.



> with the focus of having fun instead of being fixated on percieved slights that aren't even being levied at us personally.


You said it yourself. Peoples opinions differ and it is their choice and only their choice to debate/rant/love/hate/whatever. Go about the forum as you stated and it will be much better. Sure I would like it if the flamewars ended or at least were more civillized debate but I demand nothing of my fellows I will not do myself.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

i diddnt know heresy had that many flame wars


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I love Matt Ward! 

He gives us so much to talk about, like President Bush. :victory:


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

The vast majority of players don't whine like it's the end of the world, people like that are a minority in the community, they just happen to be very loud. The fact that there aren't many of them does make it easier to tune them out.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

The only real heated things I've seen are some of the primach topics or new Necron models, but when something changes theres always going to be reaction.

I've found Heresy to be quite a freindly forum and lack of moaning. Yeah some about GW and stuff time to time, but thats standard for any forum / club / group :dunno:


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## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

I was part of the abarth forum (abarths a make of car for those that dont know i know the US dosnt have them yet) and arguments where pretty common nearly every thread ended in one hence why i left. It seems normal for people to pick online fights since every thing seems to blow over. 

As for the necron thread that was just daft of all the threads and posts on here how bloody easy is it to miss one. That was just people trying to do a moderators job.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i dont think i have ever seen a flame war on heresy, i agree we do get some moaning and anti GW sentiments , but compared to some of the other forums we are easily the most laid back and sensible forum, some topics do get heated but differing opinions will always cause that, though at the moment we dont have some threads that have generated some hate because of the spam nature/trolling aspects, but people have been warned and alot of the members who have been vocal are being vocal to protect the forum and its members.

Plus i hate to say it sometimes threads such as this cause friction because its such a sweeping generalisation of how "we" are in your opinion.If you feel a member has "overeacted" or is unfairly negative then call them out on it, offer counter arguments to there "issues" or maybe look at it from there point of view and empathise....Or ignore there comments altogether....harsh but sometimes its the only way to enjoy your time on the forum.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Sure thing OP, I'll stop having an opinion entirely because you want me to.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with a robust discussion about something. People can be overly sensative which tends to lead to flame wars, which in the nomal course of events will lead to personal insults. We like frank discussion here but not insulting each other.

I cant speak for other forums as I don't tend to go to many others these days, they just dont compare to Heresy.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

the-ad-man said:


> i diddnt know heresy had that many flame wars


Well my point was for any forum where flmewar happens. Here it's just slightly less civilized debate.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Samules said:


> Well my point was for any forum where flmewar happens. Here it's just slightly less civilized debate.


then....why post it here?

why not on the forums that have these 'flamable conflicts'


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Weapon said:


> Sure thing OP, I'll stop having an opinion entirely because you want me to.


This.

And ten characters.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

the-ad-man said:


> then....why post it here?
> 
> why not on the forums that have these 'flamable conflicts'



It's just general advice in case anything does happen here or if you use other forums.

And I no longer have accounts on said other forums.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

I believe this is called a 'pre-emptive'. 

Why applauded, be weary of doing such things as it can tend to backfire.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Zion said:


> I've been trying to think of how to best say this for a while now. And really it comes down to this: tha thing you're doing? Yeah, that. Stop it.
> 
> Now I'm not saying we all need to say we need to all march in step and nly lile the same things, but to act so venomously about everything you don't like is not only reflecting poorly on the community as a whole but is the very reason GW doesn't like dealing with us outside of how much money we give them.
> 
> ...


This is Heresy, not Warseer. We are here because we can talk like adult and for the most part not worry about pissing off prissy little shits who can't take it. So the short answer to the OP is no, the longer answer, hell no.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm a consumer, and I'll damn well say what I want about products I'm spending money on.

Games Workshop (or other game companies) aren't surfing all the forums, crying tears over someone bitching about the latest release. They watch their profits -- if they fuck up and it hits their bottom line, then they care, otherwise they don't give two farts.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I generally agree with most of the posts here. Heresy is a forum for those with slightly thicker skin where we can converse without having the whole discussion doused in gasoline and lit up in a flame war. We all have different opinions and we're often vocal about those opinions which is good for the forum imo. 

*But so help me if I see another thread about Matt Ward I will explode. Fluff = bad. Rules = good. The End.*


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I've been here a solid few months now, the most Irking I generally see between people is through a) New Users Spamming Inane Topics, b) Something taken out of context leading to a roundabout apology on both sides. c) Someone parading skeletons from their closet in an attempt to justify their views. I try to be a good member of the community and I do so out of respect for the other members here because it's so good. I come here for the views and frankly I've gotten fantastic food-for-thought from posting here on heresy than I ever have on a forum.

Furthermore, everyone here is just a faceless avatar whose opinion I don't really ever see effecting my own of the game or GW as a company, I do value and respect these peoples input, but I don't think I could ever take offence to someone's views about something like which Primarch is the best or which Chapter is the greatest of all time.

If it is bothering you though OP I find if you read everyone else's post in the voice of Scooby-Doo you find net-rage goes right out the window. And mods sound hilarious as Scrappy-Doo.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Wait, when did plastic army men get serious again?


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Wait, when did plastic army men get serious again?


it has always been, super serious.

http://www.myfacewhen.com/114/


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Wait, when did plastic army men get serious again?


its always been super serious man! its like a conspiracy to make everything so damn serious!

...

why so serious? XD


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> its always been super serious man! its like a conspiracy to make everything so damn serious!
> 
> ...
> 
> why so serious? XD


stopit with those text-face thingies!!! you arent being serious enough!!!


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the-ad-man said:


> stopit with those text-face thingies!!! you arent being serious enough!!!


ok  ill stop XD very soon  yes, very very soon, so soon I might cry T.T lmao


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> ok  ill stop XD very soon  yes, very very soon, so soon I might cry T.T lmao


STOPITSTOPITSTOPIT!!!!!!! take my little plastic me seriously!!! there are no laughs in the 41st milenium!!! on war!

IT EVEN SAYS THAT IN THE RULEBOOK!!



:laugh:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

On Baal, they cry tears of blood. When they laugh, flecks of blood shoot out, not phlegm. When they toast a good game, they do it with Blood Beer. The two rival gangs on Baal are the Bloods and the Bloodss. The most popular food is Blood Sausage. All diamonds on Baal are Blood Diamonds.

So says Matt Ward, and so shall it be.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

well the only thing Phil Kelly did was make Wolf Wolfborn riding a Wolf with Wolf claws as part of the space wolves.

not as bad as all the blood the blood angels seem to have... fracking emo vampires, I swear.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

jaysen said:


> On Baal, they cry tears of blood. When they laugh, flecks of blood shoot out, not phlegm. When they toast a good game, they do it with Blood Beer. The two rival gangs on Baal are the Bloods and the Bloodss. The most popular food is Blood Sausage. All diamonds on Baal are Blood Diamonds.
> 
> So says Matt Ward, and so shall it be.





KhainiteAssassin said:


> well the only thing Phil Kelly did was make Wolf Wolfborn riding a Wolf with Wolf claws as part of the space wolves.
> 
> not as bad as all the blood the blood angels seem to have... fracking emo vampires, I swear.


i think you are all forgetting all the nemesis objects of the grey knights 

they rise, bright and early from their nemesis beds, switch off their nemesis alarm clocks, they then brush their nemesis teeth with a nemesis toothbrush, and after a hard day's training and praying at the nemesis gym they retreat to their nemesis beds once more to dream their nemesis dreams...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I can see all of the Ward hate disappearing when all of the codices are fully updated.

When every codex is 'over-powered', then they shall all be balanced.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

With each codex being better than the last, I hope the new CSM one is so off the charts people re-remember how much they hate chaos.

On topic of flame wars on heresy, they don't really exist. Maybe a point in a thread where people disagree and voice it, or are misunderstood and it's clarified. Only negative thing I can say is all the Ward hate...justified or not


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Weapon said:


> I can see all of the Ward hate disappearing when all of the codices are fully updated.
> 
> When every codex is 'over-powered', then they shall all be balanced.


but what happens when the cycle starts again with the first six edition codex? :scratchhead:


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> but what happens when the cycle starts again with the first six edition codex? :scratchhead:


Then may god help us all.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Weapon said:


> Then may god help us all.


to quote Ego-raptor

GOD CAN'T HELP YOU NOW!!


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

^ 

I used to have all of his video's on my PS3, I should download them again for my new slim model...

But yeah, I don't think that the gap of codex strength between editions will ever be this bad again.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Moonschwine said:


> If it is bothering you though OP I find if you read everyone else's post in the voice of Scooby-Doo you find net-rage goes right out the window. And mods sound hilarious as Scrappy-Doo.


Oh god, I laughed for so long when I read this. :laugh:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Wow, I leave for a day and this thing gets away quick.

When I posted this, I wasn't just writing a letter to to community here but to 40K as a whole. But sonce I don't write a blog and only really post here, this s the only place I put it.

I have no problem with people having opinions, and honestly anyone who thinks tthat was my intent probably read to far into it. I'm fine wth ideas and new thpughts or outlooks, but less fine with the pointless nerd raging that makes the community as a whole look bad.

And seriously the thinggs people post about GW staff shoulf be at least toned down. There is a major difference between sayin "I do not care for Matt Ward" and saying " Matt Ward sucks, I hope he gets hit by a truck full of cqncer!"

One of those is an opinion, tye other one is just hateful, adds notjing of value to the community or the hobby and only serves to make us look like a bunch of short tempered jerks who only want to loudly decry any attempts made by the company to bring us new things.

In otherwords it makes us all look like we're just Haters no matter what.

Now, no one has to agree with me, or even pay any attention to my request. This is the internet afterall, and I do understand that the GIFT effect comes into full swing here. But I just felt it needed to be said.

Take it or leave it, it's up to you.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

If I had seen this thread earlier, when it was new, my troll instincts would have kicked in. By now though, all I can say is, just read everything everyone above me said.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I actually agree with you OP. The constant nerd rage over even the smallest things is pathetic and gets really boring and sort of draining to read before long.

That being said it's not worth bringing up. People love to complain, especially in an environment like the internet.

Try to just skip threads that are full of bitching and moaning or set certain especially whiny posters to ignore. It makes the experience here a lot more tolerable.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Hell if the complaining really bugs you can state in your OP "This is not a thread for Matt Ward/GK/whatever hate so take it elsewhere.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I like all the over-the-top complaining. It gives me material for my satirical remarks.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Matt Ward killed my cat.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Weapon said:


> Matt Ward killed my cat.


I feel your pain.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Weapon said:


> Matt Ward killed my cat.


 
That's the first cool thing that Matt Ward has done, then. Death to all cats. Dogs rule!
:angry:


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> That's the first cool thing that Matt Ward has done, then. Death to all cats. Dogs rule!


+1

Cats are sneaky and only give attention when they want something.

Where a dog will bring you your slippers (albeit a bit drooly and chewed), the newspaper (shredded and soggy) or even a dead bird for no apparant reason.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I have spent over £3,000, which is around $4.5-5K, due to the exchange rates, since I've started, purely on Books. In the time it takes to develop the books, I end up getting a lot books loaded with spelling mistakes, and require Extensive Errata's and FAQ's (and not just those bringing rules in line with New Editions).

On occasion, the books have fallen apart, and eventually, the modelling sections have retreated from modelling and painting into "look at the pretty pictures of models we have made". I don't even think they include the kitbash sections, anymore, or tell you how to paint. It's simply Use Shining Gold, and you will get this perfectly highlighted, shaded model.

The rules are lazily written (as noted by the requirement of FAQ's, and these are so few and far between - not to mention regularly failing to incorporate questions raised in rules discussion forums.

The Fluff is often nonsensical. Due to the nature of Warhammer series, which incorporate over 17,000 years of history in the Fantasy game, and over 10,000 in 40K, only the most notable and exceptional circumstances - but due to the "poor" nature of the writers and their frequent contradictions and retcon's, we're left with self imposed Absolutes, such as the Necrons and Blood Angels, being broken - these aren't just mere fiction devices used to present hollywood moments, when occasional laws of physics are broken, but major "historical" facts being dropped. It's like watching a WW1 reenactment, but the fighting is between the German Empire and space hopper using elephants.

The staff who write the games proclaim to play tons of games during the development stage. The rules are written by people by who understand the game, and play tested by those same people - so they know the intention. Simply passing over a document, similar to how rules formats are presented on forums, for criticism, and proof reading, will bring up points which may be unclear.

So; to sum up, we've got nonsensical plots outside of even the norm of Warhammer, poorly written rules, exhorbitant prices of the books, which goes towards paying the wages of lazy writers who prefer to play games (which is likely as not Beta Testing, more just enjoying games using rules they've developed) rather than doing the job they're paid to do, and buffing the already large profits (£8m per annum) of the company, and in return, the best answer they can give is a once every 3 years, 3-4 sheets of paper addressing barely a fraction of the community concerns.

I think I'll settle with continuing the vitriol. A company with as lax standards as Games Workshop deserves everything it gets. If someone in my multiple, with the amount of negative attention and reputation from among the veteran and core community of my trade such as Mat Ward was present, he'd be long gone - I wouldn't settle for having a below standard member of my team tarring it with the same brush, producing such a low quality product which is continually ridiculed by those for whom it matters, or rather should matter to the higher ups, regardless of whether they were aware of it.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> but what happens when the cycle starts again with the first six edition codex? :scratchhead:


We've had the first 6th Ed codex. 6Th Ed 40k was finished in the middle of this year. Every Codex starting with Grey Knights was written in accordance with how 6th Ed would work.

Sure the later ones will work better as final tweaks and last minute adjustments will happen, and for the simple fact of the rules will have had more playing time. But the first Codex out after 40k 6th Ed comes out is not the first 6th Ed Codex...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Here's an idea then before shipping a product:

Complete the entire game, 40K 6th Edition; codices all. Pass the information onto the Forge World side so they're current with the upcoming rules.

Then, trickle release both models and rules. That way everything is current and up to scratch, and more importantly judged with the same qualifiers.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Vaz said:


> I have spent over £3,000, which is around $4.5-5K, due to the exchange rates, since I've started, purely on Books. In the time it takes to develop the books, I end up getting a lot books loaded with spelling mistakes, and require Extensive Errata's and FAQ's (and not just those bringing rules in line with New Editions).
> 
> The rules are lazily written (as noted by the requirement of FAQ's, and these are so few and far between - not to mention regularly failing to incorporate questions raised in rules discussion forums.


That's great for you Vaz, that you've spent so much money to support the company, but lets be reasonable here. Plenty of gaming companies need to put out FAQs or Errata on their products, including Wizards of the Coast and Privateer Press. You're making it sound like GW is the only gaming company who puts out rule books that need to be addressed at some point.



> The Fluff is often nonsensical. Due to the nature of Warhammer series, which incorporate over 17,000 years of history in the Fantasy game, and over 10,000 in 40K, only the most notable and exceptional circumstances - but due to the "poor" nature of the writers and their frequent contradictions and retcon's, we're left with self imposed Absolutes, such as the Necrons and Blood Angels, being broken - these aren't just mere fiction devices used to present hollywood moments, when occasional laws of physics are broken, but major "historical" facts being dropped. It's like watching a WW1 reenactment, but the fighting is between the German Empire and space hopper using elephants.


Any progressive story that is continually being told will have contradictions and retcons. Comics have these all the time, as do series of books like the Dungeons and Dragons books by Wizards of the Coast. This is what happens when you have many different writers and editors overseeing the creation/expansion of new fluff. Even if you had the same writer putting the books out they would eventually have contradictions as the world evolves.



> The staff who write the games proclaim to play tons of games during the development stage. The rules are written by people by who understand the game, and play tested by those same people - so they know the intention. Simply passing over a document, similar to how rules formats are presented on forums, for criticism, and proof reading, will bring up points which may be unclear.


I agree here, they do need some outside beta testing going. Plus they need better editors. Mistakes do happen though.



> I think I'll settle with continuing the vitriol. A company with as lax standards as Games Workshop deserves everything it gets. If someone in my multiple, with the amount of negative attention and reputation from among the veteran and core community of my trade such as Mat Ward was present, he'd be long gone - I wouldn't settle for having a below standard member of my team tarring it with the same brush, producing such a low quality product which is continually ridiculed by those for whom it matters, or rather should matter to the higher ups, regardless of whether they were aware of it.


But how much of the hate for Mat Ward in the community is really because he makes bad rules and fluff, and how much is it because he writes Loyalist Space Marine books? Even before Ward, people hated the Ultramarines and all other factions were cooler then the Imperial Space Marines, except Space Wolves seemingly. The Space Wolves were most likely the exception because they were basically a middle ground between Imperial and Chaos, and didn't like the Imperium much.

As for writing bad rules, that is purely in the eye of the beholder (which is usually tinted by fanboyism). All of Wards books in 5th, (SM, BA, GK) were all fairly balanced books (within themselves and to an extent the whole game) that allowed for many different types of builds. Not only that, but the 2 books that people considered top tier before the release of GK was SW and IG (both not written by Ward). 

Both of those books had far more emphasis on the game play faults that Ward is blamed for then Wards own books. People complain that Ward had to many things with blood in the name in the BA codex, yet there were easily twice as many (or more) instances of things with wolf in the name in the SW codex. People call on Ward making "Cheesy" lists due to things like Vulkan in the SM codex, yet IG gave us builds like Leaf Blower.

As for bad fluff, it's not like Ward is the only guy that has written bad, over the top fluff. There's plenty of stories in the other codices that are just as over the top, but because they aren't written by Ward they don't get as much attention. Like the Doom of Malan'tai, The Battle for Malestorm's Maw (SW codex), Lukas the Trickster, Canis Wolfborn to name a few.

Yet some how only Mat Ward is a bad writer, even though he didn't write 2 of the 3 most powerful codices (SW and IG), there are other books that use less original naming (SW), there are other books with more "cheese" (IG), and other books that are more inclined to limited build choices (IG). His books have OTT fuff but so does every other codex.

Now I agree that GW is lax in some regards but the fault does not lie specifically with Ward. Him and Phil Kelly have given us the best codices in 5th so far, if anything I'd sack Cruddace for the Nid and IG codex.



Vaz said:


> Here's an idea then before shipping a product:
> 
> Complete the entire game, 40K 6th Edition; codices all. Pass the information onto the Forge World side so they're current with the upcoming rules.
> 
> Then, trickle release both models and rules. That way everything is current and up to scratch, and more importantly judged with the same qualifiers.


Just wondering here, if they complete all the codices for 6th edition what rules are they going to trickle out?


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

You guys want a flame war?

Justing Bieber and Twilight, your thoughts.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I've been seeing this post across several mini-wargaming forums (Infinity, etc), with minorvariations. Seems _someone_ is having internet burnout. And wants everyone to know. :grin:


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> You guys want a flame war?
> 
> Justing Bieber and Twilight, your thoughts.


Both make my penis sharper than draigos sword.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Until joining Heresy I didn't know much about the different Codex writers, I guess I just presumed it was the same team of guys who did them all, never gave it much thought and just played the game like the majority of players I'd guess - I've never heard much talk about codex writers before until here.

From what I've gathered, Matt Ward writes very good rules and balanced codex's but some don't like him for his fluff. First, surely in the Codex's, the rules should be the main priority: these are rule and supplement books, the main fluff will always be found in the novels now being made. Secondly, each codex is always going to big-up the army its telling you about, its their codex! It's got to make them seem good so players can read it and think "wow yeah, these guys are awesome!" and sell each race as being able to hold their own.

I just think a lot of people take the codex's the wrong way, yeah defo it needs fluff to fill it out and provide a background and feel for the army, but the main priority should be the rules. Leave it to the novels and books to fill out the stories


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I think people forget that there's another option when it comes to ridding oneself of all the pent up rage that comes with dealing with Games Workshop.

*Stop playing/buying/reading their stuff.* If things are so awful that every post you make is full of nerd rage and moaning then it's time to find another hobby.

I haven't bought a Games Workshop product since Codex: Grey Knights came out. Follow this example if you hate the hobby.


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

The only rants I've seen were people bitching about Grey Knights, but I think that trend has passed, at least for the most part. People will complain about stuff. If you don't like it, quit the hobby. Otherwise, stop criticizing the community.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Durandal said:


> Both make my penis sharper than draigos sword.


 
That's a disturbing thought 

Wooo post 800!!


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Alsojames said:


> Wooo post 800!!


Congrats, ahaha.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't agree that GK is a balanced book. It might be balanced with the future codices for 6th edition, but not with the older books. The GK are given tons of free or very cheap upgrades with either non-existant or very weak disadvantages to balance them out. I hope that future codices are written to the same level and can bring back some balance between the different armies.

It would be awesome if the re-written chaos, daemons, tau, SoB, eldar, etc are as strong of codices as the GK.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Machiavellismx said:


> Until joining Heresy I didn't know much about the different Codex writers, I guess I just presumed it was the same team of guys who did them all, never gave it much thought and just played the game like the majority of players I'd guess - I've never heard much talk about codex writers before until here.


See there is actually a team that works on the codex, the whole team is listed in the credits for each book, but people see "Written by" and the assumption is the WHOLE book was written/printed by one person with no one else seeing it before it hits shelves. Each codex needs to pass through a process before it hits shelves, that's one of the reasons why it takes so long to get the books released (as evidenced by the leaked play test GK codex a few months back).

Too bad people will still tell you that if something is bad in a codex it's all 1 persons fault.

Me included :laugh:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This thread should be in Off Topic.  

@OP: Heresy is soft. There is no flame war here, never has been and likely never will be. It`s just that kind of site, nobody here really has that hate for others in them.

I`ve been to many forums. The internet is a scary place. If you want to be scarred for life, go onto the deviantArt forums and ask for a hug or some such. :wink: 


I see no point to this thread. If anything, your attempt to stop the whining has only led to more.  



In an attempt (probably doomed to fail) to bring a partially relevant discussion to the thread, may I ask why do you think hate exists, if not here, then elsewhere on the internet? 

If I were to venture a guess given what I`ve seen out there, I would say it has more to do with predetermined "groups" of users rather than simply being difference of opinions. For example, on one of my other forums, one poster is a devout christian and another is a staunch atheist who mocks religion openly. Regardless of what one posts in any given thread, I`ve noticed that the other tends to post dissenting opinions, seemingly with the intent to cause a rift. 

This is one example, but I have noticed others as well, predominantly on Art based websites like aforementioned dA. Has anybody else noticed this, here or elsewhere?


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> If I were to venture a guess given what I`ve seen out there, I would say it has more to do with predetermined "groups" of users rather than simply being difference of opinions.... Has anybody else noticed this, here or elsewhere?


Whilst this is not the only driver of conflict, agreeing or disagreeing on trivial things just because you agree or disagree strongly on a single important thing is a common human trait; for instance, the voting in the Eurovision Song Contest used to be entirely based on politics.

I think that one of the reasons it is not a defining feature of this board is that there are enough people who will respond to a bare statement with a reasoned case that "did.... did not.... did too..." style threads are less likely to gain momentum.

And of course we all want to live up to Jezlad's example by expressing our points politely and calmly.:wink:


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Here's an idea then before shipping a product:
> 
> Complete the entire game, 40K 6th Edition; codices all. Pass the information onto the Forge World side so they're current with the upcoming rules.
> 
> Then, trickle release both models and rules. That way everything is current and up to scratch, and more importantly judged with the same qualifiers.


That's an idea. However...

Each codex takes an average of 6months to a year to write. Assuming 12 books and 4 writers, with three codeces each, that's a year and a half at the very best. Each edition of 40k takes at best 2 years to complete, so thats 3.5 to 5yrs of work so far. Sculpting the models for each release is 6months to about a year of work (given the plan seems to be release it all at once now). With 12 books to sculpt for, assuming you can reuse half the models, that's about 5yrs work, minimum. Then there's painting (3 months per project, only doable once sculpting is finished so tag +3months on the end), White Dwarf (can only happen after EM have finished)....

So, if you are willing to wait anywhere from 3.5 years for the next 40k release of any kind, then only have 40k releases whilst they do the same for WHF, then that would be a plan. 

If GW were starting from scratch, then that would be a viable approach. Given they've been going for decades, doing such a shift would kill them I'm afraid.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

SilverTabby said:


> That's an idea. However...
> 
> Each codex takes an average of 6months to a year to write. Assuming 12 books and 4 writers, with three codeces each, that's a year and a half at the very best. Each edition of 40k takes at best 2 years to complete, so thats 3.5 to 5yrs of work so far. Sculpting the models for each release is 6months to about a year of work (given the plan seems to be release it all at once now). With 12 books to sculpt for, assuming you can reuse half the models, that's about 5yrs work, minimum. Then there's painting (3 months per project, only doable once sculpting is finished so tag +3months on the end), White Dwarf (can only happen after EM have finished)....
> 
> ...


Well at least they will have learned a lot when 7th Edition comes around.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

SilverTabby said:


> That's an idea. However...
> 
> Each codex takes an average of 6months to a year to write. Assuming 12 books and 4 writers, with three codeces each, that's a year and a half at the very best. Each edition of 40k takes at best 2 years to complete, so thats 3.5 to 5yrs of work so far. Sculpting the models for each release is 6months to about a year of work (given the plan seems to be release it all at once now). With 12 books to sculpt for, assuming you can reuse half the models, that's about 5yrs work, minimum. Then there's painting (3 months per project, only doable once sculpting is finished so tag +3months on the end), White Dwarf (can only happen after EM have finished)....
> 
> ...


I dunno about that, but Privateer Press managed to put out a new edition of it's rules, and update all the Faction books (11 of them) in a year and a half total, and that's after having a massive open beta test of their system, to test the balance and rules system. It's certainly not impossible to do, though perhaps GWs system of leaving everything up to basically one designer at a time (with some help, of course) means it takes more time. I also think it generally leads to there being much less balance from book to book, but that's by the by.

At any rate, I think that GW should aim for getting at least every army book updated once in an edition cycle - there are 14 armies, they should be able to put out 14 books in a 4 year cycle. While it's gotten better with updates recently, they should be looking at 3-4 codecies a year, but instead there's 2-3. With 6th edition probably out next year, there's still going to be a bunch of codecies left two editions out of date, probably for at least a year or two, which really sucks for those people trying to play them.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i would just like to point out to maddermax that PP has a total of 11 faction book across two systems , GW has three core systems and 40k alone has more factions than the total of PP and i would hazard a guess that a PP faction has less units within its books too.

GW releases its stuff at the speed its comfortable with, it has far more variables to consider than the tiny PP people, you cant turn an oil tanker on a dime, Admittedly the cycle should be completed before moving on to the next edition, but this is business and cash flow,sales and profit will always come first for GW, the whims of the gamer are not high on there list of priorities, sisters logically should come after necrons as they are the most out of date and the models have arguably the highest concentration of metals and i think are the only model range without plastic troops of any kind but i would prefer them to wait longer and get a decent release than be rushed and half arsed as that will only lead to poor sales and jepordise them for future releases. in the mean time they can tinker with a few established codex and some easy shiney new model kits or secondry waves for current codex. 

But the internet is the internet and we can have all the great ideas in the world aswell as all the anti GW sentiment to go with it, but the fact is the suits in GW tower are the ones who ultimately decide what comes next and when and they base those decisions on how much money the company needs to stay afloat and make a few pennies for the share holders and investors. 

its always going to be "will it make GW more money? vs what the gamer thinks he needs"


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

For 40K, the armies break down into

Astartes
Imperial Guard
Eldar
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Tyranids
Tau
Sisters of Battle

That's not a huge amount of races. The rules of the Different Chapters can be combined into one. The possibility of a Traitor Legions rules to represent the Traitor Legions, while the renegades like the Red Corsairs, Blood Gorgons etc. belongs in "Codex: Astartes". Blood Angels do not need seperate rules; they have no unique units aside from a Baal Predator - and even then, it's not unique as the Minotaurs likely looted them from the Lamenters, and through their association with the High Lords, it may well have got back into the supply of the Space Marines Chapters. The Lucifer patern engine is limited to the Blood Angels, but what about the White Scars it specifically lists as using Overcharged engines to keep up with their Bike Marines?

Black Templars have Power of the Machine Spirit - what about the Relic Rhino's from the Blood Angels?

Space Wolves have their Wolf Tail Talismans - what about the charms of the Salamander skins? Primal Cavalry from the Thunder Wolf Cavalry? What about the Megasaurs from the old White Dwarf article? Salamander Firedrake Riders, or some other Deathworld massive animal mount?

Dark Angels are really the only ones who have a Terminator Command Squad? Yes, it could turn into a pick and mix army, but then again, out of the more than 1000 marine chapters available to the Imperium, despite being 1st or 2nd Founding, there is very little that is unique among them.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Books are released on a time table that is developed to maximize profits. If all the books were released at once, people might only buy one book per release. However if you spread the releases out, then people are more willing and ready to buy something new when they are released. Look at how many people will buy an entire new army when Necron come out, just because its been a while since their army had an update. Then, when their army does get updated, they'll buy that book as well.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Vaz said:


> For 40K, the armies break down into
> 
> Astartes
> Imperial Guard
> ...


What you speak of is Heresy. Expect a visit from Inquisitor Toth in the next few days.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

jaysen said:


> Books are released on a time table that is developed to maximize profits. If all the books were released at once, people might only buy one book per release. However if you spread the releases out, then people are more willing and ready to buy something new when they are released. Look at how many people will buy an entire new army when Necron come out, just because its been a while since their army had an update. Then, when their army does get updated, they'll buy that book as well.


I think the point he was making was to write them all, then release them one at a time like they do now but with everything being written for the same ruleset, over the yearsit would take to do WHF the same way. 

PP is a fraction of the size of GW so can do releases like that. They have also been around nowhere near as long. 

And whilst that is a cool idea for an Astartes codex, GW would complain because it wouldn't make as much money, and punters would complain they're paying for rules they don't need or want. There is no way to win that one...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I'd posted an expansion of my original thoughts a few pages back but it seems to have been buried/ignored in the deluge of other posts.

For those who didn't read it here's the short version:

It was aimed at the 40K community as a whole, not just Heresy. Heresy is just the only place I post, but a lot of other sites come here for information and the like so it seemed like a good place to put it. 

Additionally I'm not against individual opinions but were as "I don't like Matt Ward, I think his fluff sucks." is an opinion, posts like "Matt Ward sucks! He needs to be hit with a truck full of cancer!" (yes, I have actually seen that) is not an opinion but hate speech and is the kind of thing I'm against. It's not so bad here (save for the occasional troll) but it's still something that should be discouraged. Attached to those names we revile are real human beings who should be treated as such, even if we don't like them.

That said, I've voiced my peice and am stepping away from this thread since it seems to have degenerated from the intent into what looks like an attempt to troll a negative reaction out of me.

And for all of the people who posted for me to ignore things: I do leave them alone, and avoid them, but these people show up everywhere, not just in certian forums or websites, and I don't think their actions should be tolerated or condoned. But that's just how I see it since I think the community as a whole can be, and for the most part, is better than that.


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Blood Angels do not need seperate rules; they have no unique units aside from a Baal Predator - a


Sanguinary guard
All the characters
Sanguinary priests 
Baal preds
Fast chassis
Not to mention the rather important assault marines as troops.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Read the post, and you'll see that they are no different from Space Marines aside from particular "uniques", which aren't actually that unique.



Durandal said:


> Sanguinary guard


What, the Elite Guard unit to protect the Chapter Master? Yeah, that's unique. Oh, wait, they have Jump Packs, lets give as options for the Standard Honour Guard.



> All the characters


So, we have a Chapter Master, a Company Captain, a master of the Apothecarion, a master of the sanctity.

the uniqueness of the Chapters characters is limited only to the Death Company Guardian of the Lost, and the Chief librarian who has the stats of a Greater Daemon.

When you look at the other Chapters presented, we have a Chapter Master, Chief Librarian, Master of Sanctity, Chief Apothecary, Forgemaster, Veteran Sergeant, and only a couple of unique characters - Forgefather (Captain seeking artefacts), Emperors Champion (Chapter Champion by other words), Guardian of the last (Angriest of the Agnry Chaplain), Lieutenant Commander/Veteran Sergeant/Captain of Bodyguard (like Rockfist).

Many of those can be made through use of the proper "design your own chapter", modifying the rules presented in a well designed codex.


> Sanguinary priests


Lone Apothecaries


> Baal preds


As stated, the Minotaurs looted the Lamenters following Badab, and they have close allegiance with the High Lords and Mars. It's likely that the Baal could well be amalgamated within the STC of the Predator, like the Annihilator, which was attributed to the Space Wolves development.



> Fast chassis


Codex Space Marines state that the White Scars use overcharged engines.



> Not to mention the rather important assault marines as troops.


Why? This is yet another example of "uniqueness" where its not needed - they have no more Assault Marines than any other chapter, and other Chapters make greater use out of the Assault Marines.

Quick Edit - 

I think you may have the wrong idea of what I meant when design the game all together.

I didn't mean release it alltogether. I mean that currently, we get a release every 4-6 months for the game, with wildly different standards as the basics for the army, and how the game is developed. Make the game rules and fluff together so it all correlates and is developed alongside each other, similar to how RTS games are made. Then, develop the Artwork and 3D models before release, and stagger the release.


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