# Marines Without Rhinos?



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

With the many changes of 6th Edition upon us I've been toying with the idea of starting a new army. And while I am a big fan of Bolters and Power armor, I'm pretty tired of running things around in Ye Ol' Metal Boxes. And with the new edition I've been looking at a few things and have scratched Drop Pods off my list of things I want to take too. 

So as it stands I'm looking at the possibility of taking Marines on foot. With the new bonuses to footsloggers (Rapid Fire always works, 25% to generate cover, 2d6" threat range for the charge and the fact that only vehicles that are open topped or equipped with Assault Ramps let you assault the same turn you disembark) are they enough to shake up the meta to make this a working option?


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

fact is that the changes to rapid fire also mean more marines will die. Obviously it is early, but we may see plasma coming back as being able to fire on the move, overwatch, remove hull points are all boons (not to mention the nerf to power weapons...). In addition, mobility is still a big deal since at least one VP comes from linebreaker and there is the deployment style forcing you to play against the long board edge, shooty armies (guard & tau) rejoice!

non-assault type vehicles have certainly taken a hit in regards to setting up assaults (and people complained about it in 5th... oi vey!) but the survivability they bring has if anything, increased - definitely worth 35pts for a rhino to protect your MEQ from that small arms fire.

Note: cover is determined MODEL by MODEL, not for the whole unit. Since saving throws are allocated to save type a marine standing in the open receives no cover from plasma, but the dude standing right behind him in area terrain does. This is a big change.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

If going for this option then SW are the best option, because they do the 24" mayhem really well and can fill the board with enough models to be able to pull off.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

clever handle said:


> fact is that the changes to rapid fire also mean more marines will die. Obviously it is early, but we may see plasma coming back as being able to fire on the move, overwatch, remove hull points are all boons (not to mention the nerf to power weapons...). In addition, mobility is still a big deal since at least one VP comes from linebreaker and there is the deployment style forcing you to play against the long board edge, shooty armies (guard & tau) rejoice!
> 
> non-assault type vehicles have certainly taken a hit in regards to setting up assaults (and people complained about it in 5th... oi vey!) but the survivability they bring has if anything, increased - definitely worth 35pts for a rhino to protect your MEQ from that small arms fire.
> 
> Note: cover is determined MODEL by MODEL, not for the whole unit. Since saving throws are allocated to save type a marine standing in the open receives no cover from plasma, but the dude standing right behind him in area terrain does. This is a big change.


You make a good list of points. It's sad to see that foot sloggers got a bunch of boons, but in the end they don't help as much as you'd hope.



mcmuffin said:


> If going for this option then SW are the best option, because they do the 24" mayhem really well and can fill the board with enough models to be able to pull off.


I've considered that in the past (I was also considering Black Templar but as much as I love some of their rules, taking old codexes can be a mixed blessing that usually ends in sorrow). I was looking at the Vanilla Space Marines to build a Deathwatch Killteam with, but if I NEED them in metal boxes to play a functional army I'll shelve that idea for now.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

also worth mentioning that ALL vehicles can choose to move faster than in 5th ed now if they move flat out rather than shooting.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

clever handle said:


> also worth mentioning that ALL vehicles can choose to move faster than in 5th ed now if they move flat out rather than shooting.


I may have to look at that again. I was pretty sure that was 6" in the movement phase and then another 6" in the shooting phase for vehicles like Rhinos and Chimeras.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

Zion said:


> I may have to look at that again. I was pretty sure that was 6" in the movement phase and then another 6" in the shooting phase for vehicles like Rhinos and Chimeras.





> A vehicle can elect to move flat out instead of firing in the shooting phase


 Add this bit on page 72 to this bit on p71:


> A vehicle travelling between 6"-12" it is said...


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Archaon18 said:


> Add this bit on page 72 to this bit on p71:


Fair enough. I was not sure and was going to go back and check, but thanks for checking for me!


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I think that the SM unit that benefits most from new Rapid-fire is Sternguard Vets. Able to outgun most infantry at range, plus cheap combi weapons = nicely killy. Couple that with Kantor's ability to make them scoring and you potentially have a winning combo.

However, a note on footslogging: It is still a very slow and not very maneuverable tactic, so faster armies will run rings around you. Also, you don't have the protection of your nice metal box, so expect casualties from the start.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

How about Chaos and taking 20 man blobs to walk up the board. I've seen tournies won this way. Just want the f out for blast weapons.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

And since we will see more blast weapons (do to full strength against armor even outside of the central hole ). A single guard army will shot down you 5+ cover hugging marines fast.


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## psactionman (Jul 1, 2012)

What made you not want to take drop pods?


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Arcane said:


> How about Chaos and taking 20 man blobs to walk up the board. I've seen tournies won this way. Just want the f out for blast weapons.


And then they die to a sweeping advance and you are 350 points less well off. no i certainly would not recommend this at all


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Foot seems to be more viable in 6th, although it's still an uphill battle. The biggies to me seem to be the ability to move and snap-fire heavy weapons, as well as that vehicles and vehicle-mounted units can't score or contest objectives. 

What the edition really wants is orderly columns of dedicated transports being escorted to objectives (as opposed to 5th which was just tanks everywhere doing everything). Infantry are more important now, but the overall lethality of the game seems to have increased somewhat. 

Especially with allies in the mix, I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of footslogger army I can put together.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> And then they die to a sweeping advance and you are 350 points less well off. no i certainly would not recommend this at all


IDK I don't play Chaos, all I know is I have seen lists of berserker blobs marching up the field take 1st place at tourneys in my area.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The old battle company is fun to play. 2 Devastator and assault squads, 4 tacticals or so and as many supporting vehicles as you can fit in. It's glorious to see near a 100 space marines on the table.


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

clever handle said:


> fact is that the changes to rapid fire also mean more marines will die. Obviously it is early, but we may see plasma coming back as being able to fire on the move, overwatch, remove hull points are all boons (not to mention the nerf to power weapons...).


Not plasma cannons though, as they can't be used to snap shot.

My last game I played was completely foot (and jump pack) based army and it was probably the largest margin of victory against my fairly regular opponent I played against ever. I'm certainly going to keep playing with no vehicles at all for a while just to see how it goes. I think I'm going to add a stormraven next game, but not have it transport anything. I am close to having a full company now just need 1 tactical and 1 assault squad to complete it. Its a shame to see all my tanks not being used recently, but it has brough a bit of freshness to my games and I actually prefer seeing loads of infantry on the table instead of just a few tanks.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Rhinos are still going to be needed for the initial push up the board. Basically using Rhino wall tactics from 4th are coming back into play.

You don't want your squads sitting in rhinos like you could in 4th but instead first turn push them up as far as they can turn em to block lanes of fire and then focus your fire at a certain % of the opponents army that you did not obscure with your Rhino's. 

Also obscuring the back Rhino with the lead rhino to grant a better save (I think I was reading its 3+ cover save if 50% or more is obscured.)to the rear one. Then popping smoke on the front one. This followed by swapping their positions on the next turn and doing the same thing while having your troops walking beside them shooting what ever is in range.

Are Rhinos death traps? yes more now then in 5th. But this does not mean that they do not have a purpose. Just don't invest points other then the bare minimum to transports. Get them on the board and let them do what they are designed to to. move troops first turn then get blown up!

Cheers,
Chaosftw


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

What about razorbacks?

surely these could do some good in turn 2 or 3 - if they haven't been annihilated?...


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Chaosftw said:


> Rhinos are still going to be needed for the initial push up the board. Basically using Rhino wall tactics from 4th are coming back into play.
> 
> You don't want your squads sitting in rhinos like you could in 4th but instead first turn push them up as far as they can turn em to block lanes of fire and then focus your fire at a certain % of the opponents army that you did not obscure with your Rhino's.
> 
> ...


Well I played tactical squads sitting on home objectives. Assault squads (BA) deep strike and f-sh*t up


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

So the general concensus is basically as follows:

- Infantry has gotten a considerable boost, but due to the increased power of shooting are more fragile than ever
- Large numbered squads (like what you can get through the Chaos Marines or Black Templar) are a good way to mitigate the losses from shooting, but then you become easier to hit with template weapons
- Transports are more fragile, but they're great for the initial push to get to the midfield before they come apart.

So in essence (at least with the way the codexes work for now, and the initial meta) the best strategy is to start all boxed up and push up the field as quickly as possible and then hunker down on objectives as necessary, or start using anyone who has been forced out of their vehicle to start engaging the enemy models for VP, ect?

Long story short, unless there is a big change in how Marines work in this edition (say with a codex overhaul), the tactics from 5th basically stay the same. In short, wanting to run my army with Rhinos or Razorbacks is basically a bad idea. I get all that right?


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