# Update to Daemons of Chaos



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Flamers were moved from rare to special and made 5 points more expensive. In addition, they now suffer the multi-shot penalty and lsot 1 point of strength. The multi-shot penalty is effectively -1 to BS which is a huge difference because it is common to march and shoot and shoot at longer-range. This cuts the hit rate in half. The -1 S is also significant. I found my flamers were able to take on and kill stuff at S5 but will kill less at S4; this was very useful when fighting something with regen (like a Mortis Engine) and running the flamers into a corner or flank to do flaming wounds. 

Screamers were substantially revised. They now have +1S +1T and +2 attacks and +1 wound per model. The attacks are no longer flaming. They cost more per model but cost one-third less per wound and the cost per attack is cut by more than half. In addition, the slashing attack is different (D3 shots per model hitting on 4+ for one unit you fly over). Because they are war beasts, the extra S amd T and extra attacks mean that they are now viable war machine hunters and viable in taking out light skirmishers and fast cav and chaff models. 

They made the soul grinder in 40K a rare monster in the WHFB army book. The soul grinder has an innate grapeshot cannon shooting attack and but upgrade to a fire thrower (best), stone thrower, or blot thrower (not worthwhile) and move (not march and shoot. The Soul grinder's big boost is T7 with 4+ AS and S6 with 4 attacks. Also, makes one model in contact take an I test and, if failed, all attacks directed at that model by the grinder autohit. A minor upgrade is to replace the 4 attacks with one S10 attack that does D6 wounds (usefull against monsters and chariots, especially if they failed their I test). 

They also added 3 slaanesh chariots, one special, one a modestly upgraded rare and a third essentially a double chariot with 8 wounds, 12 S3 AP attacks and 4 S3 poisoned attacks and does 2D6+1 impact hits. This Exalted version can be used as a mount for the slaanesh herald replacing one crew member.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No complaints whatsoever about flamers quality now. This is what they should be, and only because they were so overpowered before (if you look at it that the new stats were the original, and then say the old stats were the upgrade, you would consider them to be overpowered). They are still the same strength in cc, though so can last a while and do a bit of damage. They are now a dedicated regen monster/msu hunter unit, rather than the instant choice they were before.

The new exalted chariot is also almost an instant choice though. Combine with Master if Sorcery lifeblooming/regrowthing, its near immortal, especially if you can pull a battle line apart with siren song and pavame first of all.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I really wish i hadn't seen the new daemons, I don't think my wallet can cope with this


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Loving the chariots, loving the new screamer rules. New flamer models are a bit meh but i will probably include a single unit like a did before.

Chariot is a hell yeah and the soulgrinder is a nice touch although not neccesary. All in all - quite a nice update to Daemons.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

1 -- Why GW put the soul grinder in WFB is beyond me. First off, it looks horribly out of place. "Blah, blah, blah ... Daemons traverse space and time ... blah, blah blah ..." Whatever. 300pts for a stone thrower?? Really? And it's combat power is mediocre at best w/ only 4 WS3 attacks. Yes, I know, it has _Thunderstomp_ but that's not the end all be all of CC. I've rolled nothing but 1s and 2s for _Thunderstomp_ in some games. Yes, you get to decide on the S10 multiple wound effect after someone passes or fails their I test but that will really only come into play against low I opponents - trolls, ogres, squishy wizards, etc. Most things that that kind of attack is most useful against will have a pretty decent shot at passing their I test.

2 -- The chariots look terrible. They look like plows being taken out to the field. The exalted chariot is sort of a neat idea, but why does it get 3x the wounds of a regular chariot if it's just 2 slapped together? The regular chariots weren't a great choice previously due to low T and now it's even lost a point of S. Even a *GOBLIN* chariot has S5! :shok:

3 -- Flamers got beat down HARD w/ the nerf bat. Maybe if they had only received any 2 of the 3 nerfs it wouldn't have been so bad. Now they've gone from a reliable mobile support unit to a static short range fire base who won't be killing much of anything. Flamers are now the new version of the old screamers (i.e. I don't foresee a lot of people taking them). And the new models have nothing on the old metals over the fact that the new ones are plastic.

4 -- I'm surprised GW boosted screamers so much! I see these as the new "hated" models. No one used them before because they were a completely crap unit and GW wasn't selling any of the models so they had to do a complete redo of the stats just to sell some of the new models. Well, that's just my opinion.  And Tzeentch unit that doesn't have flaming attacks!?!? Even horrors have flaming attacks.

I think this little rules patch epically failed to address the real issues of the DoC book and that's the discrepancies of many of the point values of the core troops and especially the beasts of Nurgle (100pts for what the VC get for ~1/3 the points?!). There's still going to be a lot of hate on the blocks of core infantry and probably now on screamers.

The only thing good to come out of this is all the plastic (even though most of the models are pretty "Meh.").


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The flamers were over-done. It reminds me of what was done to Empire mortars where they both increased the points cost and nerfed the unit by reducing the S of the hits. GW could have simply increased the points cost by approximately 10 points and moved them to special (where most people don't spend any points except maybe for fleshhounds). But by increasing the points cost and then nerfing the shooting ability (it is kindof standard to not suffer a multi-shot penalty, see leadbelchers) and the S of the models went so far that the models are now over-priced by 10 points or more. 

The soul grinder addition was predictable. The model exists in 40K and it does fit the theme. My only complaint is that the model has too large of a base. It is fairly pointed given the abilities it has, T7 and 4+ AS and 5+ ward makes it a decent model if supported by something else in combat. The only upgrade really worth considering is the fire thrower option. Since I like running a Keeper of Secrets with spirit swallower and he is only really vulnerable to war machine shooting, a soul grinder would make a nice screen to cannon balls when there is not enough terrain on the table. 

The Exalted chariot is probably the only one worth taking. It has enough CC attacks and AP and poison and a big enough impact hit and enough wounds to make it into a charge with M10. Agreed that the model looks goofy, like a lawnmower, I'd probably attempt a conversion. Given width of the model, it really will be hard to avoid terrain that will require dangerous terrain tests, so I don't know yet whether it is worth taking. But T4 and 8 wounds with that many attacks makes the daemonettes on top worth a lot more in combat with units with T3 and modest armour. A black guard unit worth approximately the same number of points would generally beat the exalted chariot (mainly because of 1 point greater initiative) but would take a lot of damage and have to pass a break test (stubborn) in the first round of combat. However, if you charged the chariot into a corner of such a unit with a rank and file model or a greater daemon coming in for support, then the chariot rocks.

I think screamers are appropriately point costed, maybe just slightly cheap. Look at the cost per wound and the cost per attack and compare that with other models and the cost per model is in the right price range but clearly a good choice now, whereas screamers were not worth taking before. Compare 9 furies with 3 screamers. The 9 furies cost a bit less for the same number of attacks but you have 3 more wounds with the furies and one less T with the furies. The furies have horrible LD and lack the slashing attack. Thus, I expect to replace one or two units of furies with 3 or 4 model units of screamers.


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## NoPoet (Apr 18, 2011)

Ratvan said:


> I really wish i hadn't seen the new daemons, I don't think my wallet can cope with this


Heh. This. I just spent 50 quid on Plaguebearers which I can't afford; if I'd bought them direct from GW it would have been over 70 quid I think.

I think all of the new units look amazing. They clearly put the Soulgrinder in WH to sell more models but come on, it's one of the most epic monsters in either games system, now the ultimate cheapos like me can use the same entire army in both games systems 

Wish they'd amended the rules for Beasts of Nurgle though, try as I might I cannot find a way to justify 100 points per model. The Regen rule seems to be mighty expensive...


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Agreed on beast of nurgle. With either regen or ward save in 8th edition, the beasts are not viable and yet would be of great use if pointed appropriately and in a nurgle themed army build. They also probably should have lowerd the cost of bloodcrushers.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

olderplayer said:


> Agreed on beast of nurgle. With either regen or ward save in 8th edition, the beasts are not viable and yet would be of great use if pointed appropriately and in a nurgle themed army build. They also probably should have lowerd the cost of bloodcrushers.


As far as beasts go, I find it amazing (and not in a good way) that GW gave the VC a model that is almost identical (crypt horrors) for almost 1/3 the points. Granted, a beast has a bit more going for it in stats: Ld 7 instead of 5, 4+ regen instead of 5+, a 5+ ward, the possibility to get 7 attacks instead of just 3, 4 wounds over 3, having _Swiftstride_ since beast are monstrous, well, beasts as opposed to crypt horrors being monstrous infantry. But almost 3x the points? I can see maybe double and even then that may be a few points to high.

I think bloodcrushers should either 1) be lowered in points or 2) be given an extra wound to bring them in line w/ all the other new monstrous cav out there.

Hopefully both of those will be addressed whenever DoC gets a new book.


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## NoPoet (Apr 18, 2011)

I forgot they got Swiftstride! That makes more sense because you wouldn't send them in against a ranked-up regiment on their own, they'd be supporting Bloodletter or Plaguebearers, and when their massed attacks (hopefully) overwhelm the enemy, the Beasts would be likely to run the enemy down. Have you ever tried running away from a friendly dog? It doesn't work, they just trip you up then jump all over you.

Beasts also get Trail of Slime which to be honest seems more useful if you give it to a Herald of Nurgle and stick him in a PB unit that is either operating on a flank or is somehow exposed to the enemy and risks being charged from the flanks or rear. Still, Beasts guarding a flank and joining into a massed combat might earn some of their points back.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

The problem is that solo fiends can do the job of beasts but at almost half the points. 6 fiends for 330 or 3 Beasts for 300 ... pretty much a no brainer. With the fiends you get much better range, you're guaranteed 21 attacks and 3 stomps if the unit is at full size where you'll average 13 attacks out of the beasts w/ their random attacks characteristic. Plus the _Soporific Musk_ from the fiends helps in keeping the enemy closer and making them easier to chase down.l Sure, a group of 3 beasts might be ok in larger games where you have the points to "waste" on them. But in "normal" sized games, where points tend to be a bit tighter, I'll stick w/ my fiends.

And, as a bit of a side note - now that flamers are, well, junk, units of 4-6 fiends may be more common place.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I love my fiends. I run one single and one with three. I find that I can screen the unit with furies and then charge a unit of 6 leadbelchers and have a good chance of breaking them and running them down. A single fiend can take out a unit of scouts, light skirmishers or fast cav with S4 AP. 

This weekend, I flank charged a chaos knight unit with bloodletters and the opponent fled to avoid the flank charge and killing blow + S5 with hatred of the bloodletters cutting through his armour save. He did not notice the single fiend a fvew inches away and it then charged with swiftstride and ran them down. A single fiend won the game. In a game against empire, I charged a 20 model detachment of halberds with three fiends to avoid their counteer-charge into my flank, while my Keeper and bloodletters charged the parent unit (50 halberds) and the other detachment (20+ halberds) hit the front of the bloodletters on the counter-charge with a bloodletters in horde formation. 

The fiends held off the halberds and great swords for four rounds even with a unit of 20 greatswords in the flank because of 4 attacks each hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's plus stomp plus 5+ ward. With the Keeper, general in range, the fiends did not pop even when they lost on SCR by 1 or 2. That allowed my Keeper and bloodletters to kill the characters and and break the parent unit and over-run into a hurricanum.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

Yeah, fiends are pretty amazing. I'm surprised at the lack of "DoC Hate" sent their way. 

I used a unit of 6 on a flank to trounce a MMU orc army. After my 1st round of combat w/ them vs a unit of 30 savage orcs I was down to 3 after instability. But those three remained for the rest of the game as they were able to start rolling up the orc line. M10 WS4 S4 T4 I6 A4 w/ _Armour Piercing_, _Swiftstride_, _Stomp_, and _Soporific Musk_ is pretty amazing.

As far as solo fiends, I've used them to take out war machines, scouts, chariots, a casket of souls, lone characters, small units of shooters, and other redirectors. I play against one person who is still pretty much in the 7th mindset and he likes to run his lvl 4 wizards solo and it's funny to watch them dance around and try to avoid 2 or 3 solo fiends. :laugh:


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