# Are Tyranids a dead army



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Now i want to get something straight before i get into this. I have never collected tyranids but I love the tyranid army and their models. I loved the way they played on the battlefield. I loved the tons of models used in swarms and i loved how you could have an army of loads of big models. But the thing is im beginning to think that this will be a horrible edition for tyranids. I'm not trying to diss the army at all after all i was going to start collecting tyranids as my next army before this codex hit. 

Why am i saying this, well because from battle reports that i have seen at my local gaming store and on youtube they seem to really struggle. Like im really struggling to see the army win a match. Im not saying other people cant win with this army but im guessing from what i can see it will be incredibility hard.

From what i can see the main problem is synapse. In every battle report i have seen or played in against the new tyranids codex the enemy commander just targets the synapse creatures and ignores everything else and then watches as the entire army goes into panic.

Now maybe you tyranid players out there will find away to fight against these huge odds but until then i cant see many people winning tournaments or even just competitive matches in general. 

Again no respect intended against tyranids or people who play tyranids. I do hope the army recovers and then i can collect them without wasting my money :cray:

So whats everyone else's opinion on this matter. Do tyranids players think there going to keep the tyranids going or are you shelfing them for this codex. Do other army generals think tyranids are a push over now Or maybe you disagree with me and think there still is life in the tyranids. 

So comments and criticisms welcome 
The Irish Commissar


----------



## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

The Irish Commissar said:


> From what i can see the main problem is synapse. In every battle report i have seen or played in against the new tyranids codex the enemy commander just targets the synapse creatures and ignores everything else and then watches as the entire army goes into panic.


This is because too many of the lists I have seen out there have 2-3 synapse creatures in a full army. They often are forcing synapse critters right in the face of the enemy. Take a few squads of warriors, spread it out. Take a few of those "suboptimal" units like genestealers who have ld10 and don't care too much about synapse. Hide synapse creatures behind LoS blocking terrain and in fortifications.

Anectodally though, Tyranids doing badly is not what I am hearing. We are still too early in the codex cycle for anyone to declare the codex "dead" or "OP"...Demons, Eldar, Tau were all experiencing a backlash the first week or two after release (a bit longer in the Demon case)...not saying Tyranids have that "one" uber-combo, but the army looks solid I just think it is going to take players a bit to deal with all the nuances of the codex.


----------



## loki619 (Mar 28, 2013)

i agree u cant have a codex that comes out and stomps all in the first week that would be op i have the codex and have played a game or two with it its a good codex very solid will just take time


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

i agree with iamtheeviltwin...although i fell this codex is very poor im still trying to look at it with new eye and forget how i played it in 5th. i feel things like hive commander and deep strike now will play a bigger roll.
as for synapse yes it does hurt us bad..but again its something that need to be played tested to find the way.
i took up the challenge in my club to play an army the internet said was unplayable or uncompetitive so i choose ravening that is a very hard army to play with..so now im taking the challenge with the nids.
it will be interesting to see how the reaction has change good or bad within a month


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I am not really seeing the problem with synapse - but then, I like running my warriors...

For me at least, this codex is an improvement on the last.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, if anything they're actually viable again and I'm pretty sure some more winning combos will become apparent as more people play around with their army lists for the next few months.


----------



## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

No, the army is not dead. The codex brought a lot of new things to the table and took away some weird loose ends and changed points costs so they could push the sale of new models, which is not new and certainly not a sign of codex death. Gargoyles are now really good, gaunts were made cheaper, and there is now a HUGE wargear list. Tyranids has always been a weird army to play, where positioning your synapse units is necessary for your units to do what you want right and having your weaker units hug cover while your monstrous creatures soak up fire. 

There hasn't been a 'bad' or 'broken' codex released yet, and in a game where the line between perfection and over-powered is hard if not impossible to define, that means a lot.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

So as tyrannid players you would consider this codex to be not a lost cause. I agree with the fact that the codex is not out long and it will take time to find the best combos. I just found that the synapse is a make or break thing now and I would even nearly compare it to the how necrons were in fourth. The way that after you lost something like 75% of your army the would just disappear. Would you guys find it as bad or am I making the synapse thing to big a deal. Also for people who play against tyranids how would you approach beating them now.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The trick to beating tyranids is to 
A)shoot 
B)shoot 
C)then shoot again
D)any left? return to step one if something is moving.

Also, have a beatstick of a unit where they're nearest - so at least you can keep them off you while you repeat steps 1-4.

I think this codex has been out nearly a week and its ridiculously early to start judging it. It takes time to work out what the best units are and what they work well with. It also takes time when your units change to work out the new best way of getting them to be good - after all, GW swap it round most codex's 'cause it keeps their stock flowing...:grin:
Also, everyone they play has had months to find out what the best builds were in their respective codex's.
People didn't complain abbout Eldar for a good while (everyone was still complaining about Tau for a good while cos've riptides)
With nids, I'm not sure if there is a one unit win button that you can spam - eldar, tau and chaos are seen as OP because of three units (riptide, wave serpent and heldrake)
I think once the swarms start moving in concert, they'll be tough.


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Without looking at the codex, and just looking at the complaints online, my feeling is that people are upset about the need to have synapses. This is the whole point of tyranids, you need those node creatures from a background point of view to control the hord of gibbering greeblies.

For me it looks like a return to nids of old, where there weakness is the synapses creatures, but being able to get to them is tricky through the masses of chitin and claws.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

The big question people will be facing is do they shoot the big things but risk the faster critters getting them, or shoot the critters but then get the bigger things in the face?

I never had a problem with synapse, but then I never stopped using my warriors. Once people stop taking nothing but trygons and hive guard and start balancing their lists then the army will be truly nasty :grin:


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> This is because too many of the lists I have seen out there have 2-3 synapse creatures in a full army. They often are forcing synapse critters right in the face of the enemy. Take a few squads of warriors, spread it out. Take a few of those "suboptimal" units like genestealers who have ld10 and don't care too much about synapse. Hide synapse creatures behind LoS blocking terrain and in fortifications.
> 
> Anectodally though, Tyranids doing badly is not what I am hearing. We are still too early in the codex cycle for anyone to declare the codex "dead" or "OP"...Demons, Eldar, Tau were all experiencing a backlash the first week or two after release (a bit longer in the Demon case)...not saying Tyranids have that "one" uber-combo, but the army looks solid I just think it is going to take players a bit to deal with all the nuances of the codex.


Wat?

Daemons are one of the strongest lists out there. Taudar is well known as well to be broken.

It's new edition syndrome mostly. 4th edition changed nids from Hordes to basically just being Fexes, and 5th edition reinforced the 4th edition dex, until 5th edition fucked that up.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Wat?
> 
> Daemons are one of the strongest lists out there. Taudar is well known as well to be broken.


That was kind of my point. 

The internet wisdom was not to take Demons seriously, this lasted for quite a while after the book was released...weeks (probably months) were spent gnashing of teeth "it was too random", "an all assault army cannot compete in 6ed", "Depending on Psykers is too random", "Random wargear tables make it too hard to depend on for competitive play"...

Tau had a quicker turnaround, but still internet "wisdom" when it was released was "Kroot suck now, they took our only CC option", "where are my allied races", "broadsides are completely useless", "Riptides are cool, but MCs are too vulnerable to poison and panic", "Our flyers suck, we have no good anti-air options"...now it didn't take very long before people started to realize Tau were good and those complaints were bunk, but the first week or so on the big forums was tiresome.

Same with Eldar...it took a few weeks before internet wisdom realized how powerful Wave Serpents had become and how useful the Wraithknight was...before that it was lots of complaints about Banshees, nerfs to Farseers, being stuck using the random psychic tables, nerfs to Runes of Warding, etc.

'Nids will go through this same cycle. I don't know if it will ever have the "killer" rep of Tau or Eldar, but I see some nasty combinations in this book (lictor/deathleaper + mawloc for example)...and like Tabby said, people have moved too far away from taking the non-MC synapse creatures over the past codex. Warriors, Zoans, etc will be critical to keeping your bugs in line...and the nice thing is they are all pretty cheap. 

There are also some critical skills that seem to be lacking when I have been looking at battle reports...like keeping your units at maximum coherency...a small blast template should hit no more than 2 creatures and a large blast or flamer should never do more than 4-5 hits...but I see people losing 4-5 critters to a small blast because their horde of 30 gaunts is all base to base and practically whole units being wiped by large blasts...


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm going to use an example of a battle report that I seen. I watching team0comp on YouTube (tyrannids V's ig). Anyway it was a close matter until the end of turn 3 when the ig player finally killed the last synapse creature. Despite passing a lot of synapse tests the tyrannid player lost one hormegant unit to itself and two termagants ran of the table followed by biovores pinning themself. It went to turn 7 of units running away or just been finished of. Id find that extremely frustrating if started happening everytime I played a game.


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

The Irish Commissar said:


> I'm going to use an example of a battle report that I seen. I watching team0comp on YouTube (tyrannids V's ig). Anyway it was a close matter until the end of turn 3 when the ig player finally killed the last synapse creature. Despite passing a lot of synapse tests the tyrannid player lost one hormegant unit to itself and two termagants ran of the table followed by biovores pinning themself. It went to turn 7 of units running away or just been finished of. Id find that extremely frustrating if started happening everytime I played a game.


So how many synapses creatures were there in the army?


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Just out of interest - someone told me that venomthropes give shrouded. Is that accurate?
Cause that means that one of those and an aegis is a 2+ cover save.
As I understand it, biovores come in 3's.
Is 9 biovores behind an aegis with a 2+ viable?


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

venomthropes do give shrounding within six inchs. But if one model has shrounded they all have it. So ye sound good in my opinion. 2 hive tyrants with wings and two seperate zoanthroaps. There where 2 venthroapes to but i dont think they give synapse do they?


----------



## Scissorheart (Jan 12, 2008)

The thing that I have noticed about some of the battle reports is the piss poor placement of terrain - particularly decent sized pieces of LOS blocking terrain. At my house, I have around 6 large(ish) pieces of solid 3D terrain, loads of waist high ruins and barricades, a few woods, loads of craters, loads of Aegis Defence Lines etc. If you play to the rules and put terrain down properly (in turn with your opponent and rolling D3 for each 2x2 section), it is highly likely that you will get a minimum of 2 large pieces of LOS blocking terrain somewhere in the middle of the board. I'm really at a loss to see how people can complain about their synapse models being shot to bits when they are running around pretty much in the open. I know this might sound a little bit simplistic but as a Dark Eldar player, I know that this is a very critical factor in many of the games that I play (and win).


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Irish Commissar said:


> venomthropes do give shrounding within six inchs. But if one model has shrounded they all have it. So ye sound good in my opinion. 2 hive tyrants with wings and two seperate zoanthroaps. There where 2 venthroapes to but i dont think they give synapse do they?


That's awful synapse coverage.

I'd go with a pair of Tervigons as backfield Synapse/Scoring (yeah, they've taken a major debuff, but flooding the field with Gaunts is even better now), with a Hive Tyrant for forward Synapse and trying to keep the rest up with Zoanthropes. If you're running a Swarm-type list, I'd take a Warrior Prime with Norn Crown. Yes, he's expensive as fuck for what is essentially a pure support tool (and a somewhat limited one at that). But necessary evil - you can easily get a couple of broods under an 18" Synapse, and at least he's difficult to kill since he has 30 ablative wounds. Maybe give him a Bonesword so he can maybe kill the odd Librarian or Inquisitor.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Also, whilst he's not synapse, Old One Eye is great for helping keep smaller units in line as a back-up, as he has a 24" bubble of Ld 8 for your Ld6 swarms...


----------



## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

humakt said:


> So how many synapses creatures were there in the army?


I would also like to know this, because as an Imperial Guard army, my favorite things to use against hordes are probably Battle Cannons, Flamers, Inferno Cannons and Basilisks, things that don't translate very well when trying to kill monstrous creatures. So if in three turns they could eliminate ALL the synapse creatures, they wouldn't have focused much fire on the hordes, which probably would be pretty close if not already in CC with Guardsmen.


----------



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I think people have had a really incorrect knee-jerk reaction to the Tyranids codex. The units that people think have always been bad are actually outrageously points efficient in there-- Warriors are actually more points efficient than a Tactical Space Marine. Yes, there's vulnerability to instant death... but if there wasn't, they wouldn't be charging you 10 points a wound for that essential synapse coverage coupled with powerful medium-range shooting options. They want to lure you into using Tyranid Warriors for close combat with all those fun toys like boneswords and lash whips, but the reality is that if you keep them 18'' away from enemy units and purely provide shooting and synapse with them, and ensure that the tidal wave of gaunts stays in the fight... it's a pretty hard nut to crack over the course of the game. 

I think Venomthropes are actually a little overrated. Their utility is wholly dependent on the kind of table you play on. If you're the type who frequents large major tournaments, then yes, they're indispensable because due to pure laziness they don't play with enough terrain on the tables. If you play with enough terrain on your tables, however (i.e., a minimum of 25% of the table is area terrain and features line of sight obstructions) there should be enough existing cover that the Venomthrope might not be such a huge asset. What it does do well, funnily enough, is go big game hunting with all its silly poisoned attacks.

Exocrines. Exocrines. Exocrines. The thing's a walking Vindicator that has none of the weaknesses of a Vindicator (such as the ability to be one-shotted by a lascannon). While it lacks the anti-armor ability of the Vindicator (S7 vs S10) as a general tool for eliminating heavy infantry threats, Terminators, you name it... it's pretty amazing. And it can protect itself in close combat, keep pace wth the rest of the army... Honestly, I think it's one of those things you just shrug and include at least one of in your army, if not two. 

Air defense is still a little iffy for Tyranids, but having a weakness doesn't make it a bad army. You know who else has nonexistent air defense? Space Wolves. I don't hear any complaints about them. I think Hive Guard can fill the role quite nicely though, even though they didn't get the rumored skyfire option. They're putting out enough shots that you're likely to get a couple hits, and S8 is good enough to contend with the AV11 and 12 things that are actually going to ruin your day. I do like the Hive Crone, but it is a little fragile.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Vendettas murder Synapse. Baledrakes slaughter hordes. NightScrythes have fun with either. Riptides Rape both.Thunderfire Cannons are unbelievably powerful in these types of games. Wave Serpents are fairly resilient to S7 or lower, and can avoid melee.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Well in this battle report pask in a punisher along with a hellhound and a basilisk. Followed by veterans in chimeras with aegis and vendetta. The guy who play the tyranids is the lad who organises the Las Vegas open. Also from that battle reort the autocannnon from the aegis defence line ate through the new flyer. 4+ armour save in terrible on a flyer that can be grounded.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Can you post a link to the Battle Report? Not being funny, but for comptitive-players, these sound like Garbage. 

Pask, Basilisk, Punisher? These are terrible. Why that Aegis wasn't knocked out ASAP is a bit daft, as was putting his FMC in range of an Aegis. Which Flyer was it?

Harpies and Crones are gash. Poison Gargoyles deal with enemy MC's, while Flyrants and Impaler Cannons take care of enemy flyers.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

That is one of the Battle Reports that Reese from Front Line Gaming put up: it is this one.

I know that some local 'nid players have been pretty pissed about the battle reports he has been putting up, not because of the results, but because of the naff lists that have been played.

Looking at the nid list, there are only 4 synapse creatures in an 1750 list...2 Flyrants and 2 Zoanthropes...1 Brood of Warriors would have helped...with the way the nids are bunched up on deployment he is just asking for them to get blasted off the table by blast weapons...it is like he has never heard of 2" coherency. Then he charges up the middle of the table and bunches up even further and flies his Tyrants up front, just asking to get them pummeled. It is almost like the tyranid player isn't trying.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> That is one of the Battle Reports that Reese from Front Line Gaming put up: it is this one.
> 
> I know that some local 'nid players have been pretty pissed about the battle reports he has been putting up, not because of the results, but because of the naff lists that have been played.
> 
> Looking at the nid list, there are only 4 synapse creatures in an 1750 list...2 Flyrants and 2 Zoanthropes...1 Brood of Warriors would have helped...with the way the nids are bunched up on deployment he is just asking for them to get blasted off the table by blast weapons...it is like he has never heard of 2" coherency. Then he charges up the middle of the table and bunches up even further and flies his Tyrants up front, just asking to get them pummeled. It is almost like the tyranid player isn't trying.


Thats the one. These guys say they are competitive and say they build competitive lists but obviously they dont according to tyrannid players here. I agree he does seem to punch them up really close. It seem all the battle reports end with tyranids losing.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Urgh, got better things to be doing than watching somebody else play a game. Boring as fucking watching my nails grow.

They don't even post their lists in a description.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> Air defense is still a little iffy for Tyranids, but having a weakness doesn't make it a bad army. You know who else has nonexistent air defense? Space Wolves. I don't hear any complaints about them.


Are you serious? Since 6th dropped, Wolves have gone from a T1 tourney army to "maybe take an allied contingent of them to get a Rune Priest in your IG army". When was the last time they won any kind of major tournament? You know all those "15 ML Long Fangs, 40 Grey Hunters, 2-4 Priest" armies that you saw all the damn time in 5th? Gone. You know who's entirely and exclusively to blame? The Heldrake.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Urgh, got better things to be doing than watching somebody else play a game. Boring as fucking watching my nails grow.
> 
> They don't even post their lists in a description.


They go through their lists within the first like 30 seconds :laugh:.
They even include some allied space wolves just for you Sethis :grin:


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Eh. 

For those like me normally too lazy to watch;

Primaris
Meltavets + Chimera
Plasmavets + Chimera
Penal Legion [THE FUCK?]
Vendetta
Rough Riders [THE FUCK]
Basilisk [THE FUCK]
Thunderer - eh
Pask+Punisher [THE FUCK]
Aegis

Allied Rune Priest
Allied Grey Hunters, Axe, Standard

2x Flyrant with Devourers, 1 with Onslaught and Dominion, 1 with Dom and Paroxysm
2x 15 Termagaunts, 1x 10 [THE FUCK]
20 Hormagaunts [THE FUCK]
2x Zoanthropes, 1 with Dominion, 1 with Catalyst, run alone
Crone (Just 1? THE FUCK)
2x 15 Gargoyles (Eh, 40+ is a decent number in an army.)
3x Biovores
Exocrine (Woo, AP2. Get over that, and start torrenting, get more Termagaunts)
Tyrannofex (THE FUCK)

*keep punching myself in the nuts* he says. Fucking hell, he's a mong, I'd punch him in the balls; I made a better list (at higher points value admittedly) if it gave a better list.


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

General rule of thumb for gauging how good a new codex is going by internet feedback:

If the majority are saying a codex is completely broken, it's "overpowered".
If the majority are saying a codex is overpowered, it's "good".
If the majority are saying a codex is good, it's "viable".
If the majority are saying a codex is viable, it's "underpowered".
If the majority are saying a codex is underpowered, it's "awful".
If the majority are saying a codex is awful, it's "completely unusable".

Based on this the actual Tyranid level after the new codex is "underpowered". But I will reserve my judgement until I have seen more games with them.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'd disagree - it's always a step up from the first knee-jerk reaction.

First, DA players couldn't get over the changes to Deathwing and the, well, rather poor quality of the new kits (in general - both types of Knights were good and get better with every new MC that's released), missing the powerful build of Ravenwing/Standard of Devastation completely.
Chaos, everyone complained because, well, every time GW releases anything for CSM that isn't a reprint of 3.5 then people curl up and cry. The lack of Legion rules, Lash, and cheap Daemon Princes was the only thing anyone talked about, despite the book being a major stepup from the last.
When Daemons came round, the interner cried foul because they were too random and as an army there was just too much dice rolling. The Warp Storm table was received as the end of days for the game.
Tau were a bit better, but mainly because they had nothing that was really, terribly unusable at the end of the day. The Flyers received some flak (ba-dum tish), and there was a bit of an outcry that only Tau, Kroot amd Vespid were in the book with no Demiurg, Gue'la or other alien auxiliaries.
Eldar were met with cries of 'They did WHAT to Runes of Warding/Eldrad!?', while others lamented that for yet another edition they would consign their Banshees and Phoenix Lords to the shelf. Warlocks being actual Psykers, the flyers being too fragile, the Wraithknight being a points sink - the list goes on.
Space Marines had pretty much zero bitching from any of the Space Marine players. It was just a stepup from their old book, with a lot gained and nothing lost. But ho man, the Black Templar players. Despite getting a really solid codex, how they wailed and gnashed their teeth. And even then, some people were butthurt - changes to Vulkan, TH/SS Terminators going up in price, and the lack of any superstars like the Heldrake or Riptide made lots of internet people very sad.

Also remember that more than one book so far has had a really important FAQ released a few months after release - DA got the expansion of Ravenwing Command Squads making the Ravenwing build viable, and Chaos got the most infamous one in the Heldrake FAQ, both of which radically changed the army.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I think part of the backlash is also because of some of the rumours going around beforehand. When people say things like "Tervigons can spawn any gaunt, I saw it in the book!" then of course there's going to be a let-down when people see that they've only reduced almost all the costs for the MCs, and the smaller bugs, and made them more adaptable, given them a wider range of things, introduced new bugs, given them more ways to crack Terminators... :wink:


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Are you serious? Since 6th dropped, Wolves have gone from a T1 tourney army to "maybe take an allied contingent of them to get a Rune Priest in your IG army". When was the last time they won any kind of major tournament? You know all those "15 ML Long Fangs, 40 Grey Hunters, 2-4 Priest" armies that you saw all the damn time in 5th? Gone. You know who's entirely and exclusively to blame? The Heldrake.


Barely a year ago.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

So Pre-Tau and Pre-Eldar then?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> So Pre-Tau and Pre-Eldar then?


But Heldrakes are 'entirely and exclusively to blame' for Wolves not being at tournaments, you say? Fair point though, Riptides are pretty lethal to Wolves (also the reason that GK have practically disappeared).

I think that the importance of Eldar and Tau is hugely overblown - they're not actually *overpowered*, because they're both very vulnerable to melee. The thing is, the top-tier tournament scene doesn't include melee a frightening amount of the time (I see some Wraiths sometimes, maybe some Paladins or Assault Terminators, but that's not what I'm talking about - Tacticals are a devastating assault unit against Eldar), so you get an awful lot of people trying to out-shoot Tau then crying foul when they lose. Bringing an army that relies on shooting against an army that out-shoots you at almost every range band is terrible.

Don't get me wrong, Tau and Eldar are both really good, but they're not the super-unbeatable Codexes that invalidate every other army ever that they're sometimes made out to be.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree with pretty much all of that, I was simply taking issue with the statement that Space Wolves are fine in 6th. They're fairly self evidently not, since they can't/don't/won't place well in tournies as a Primary Detachment.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Eldar do very well against tyranids with all there insta death weaons and been able to auto wound on sixs and not to mention how fast they are. It can be very hard to assault tau or eldar though. Eldar are very fast normally and tau can either be fast or can just throw down enough shots down range that it can assault any assault from going in.


----------



## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I do think that riptides invalidate some armies. Of you bring a blood angels jumper list say. They either have 1-2 turns of large blast S8 AP2 templates x3 then over watch if you 'walk it'
Or get a nice intercepted shot on your circle packed formation if you deep strike, then 1 turn of shooting, by the time you get there, they don't even need covering fire on their overwatch to kill you


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

If you're in assault range of a Mechdar army throwing out roughly 150 shots per turn at various range bands from S4-S9 all at BS4, mostly twin linked, then odds are good they're losing badly anyway. I'm not even looking forward to my first game versus Nids because I know I'm going to pan them into the ground.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

It's pretty early to tell whether you can make a good army with the book.

IMO the 'dex isn't as bad as it first appeared. It's still pretty underwhelming, but the more I read it, and the more I read about it, the better it looks. Then again, what do I know? I haven't played a proper game of 40k in like 2 years.



Sethis said:


> If you're in assault range of a Mechdar army throwing out roughly 150 shots per turn at various range bands from S4-S9 all at BS4, mostly twin linked, then odds are good they're losing badly anyway. I'm not even looking forward to my first game versus Nids because I know I'm going to pan them into the ground.


That's just speculation, for all we know the 'nid player could absolutely spank your nancy space elves.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've been reading various blogs, forums and so on, and have checked out various builds. I have yet to see anything I'm remotely afraid of, I'm sorry to say. If some more MCs in the book had a 2+ save, I might be worried.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I've been reading various blogs, forums and so on, and have checked out various builds. I have yet to see anything I'm remotely afraid of, I'm sorry to say. If some more MCs in the book had a 2+ save, I might be worried.


Fair enough. We're really gonna have to wait and see what people can put together, maybe there are one or more super awesome builds we've all missed... Probably not, but you never know.

There was an interesting discussion on 3++ about warriors not being as bad as they seem. Maybe there's something there to solve the synapse problem, maybe there's not, only time will tell. Though I suspect warriors or tervigons are going to be a 'nessissary evil' to avoid your bugs eating each other.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> If you're in assault range of a Mechdar army throwing out roughly 150 shots per turn at various range bands from S4-S9 all at BS4, mostly twin linked, then odds are good they're losing badly anyway. I'm not even looking forward to my first game versus Nids because I know I'm going to pan them into the ground.


I really, really hope you get tabled.

Nothing personal, you understand. Just to give the Nid players a little ray of hope.

On second thoughts, have you considered toning down your army to give you more challenge and therefore more enjoyment? Simply running a couple of Wave Serpents as Falcons or something. Personally I can't play a super-awesome-amazing list against bad lists/players for more than two or three games in a row, because it's so dull it's not even funny. I had this problem in 5th - I started running Summoned Daemons, and replacing my Daemon Prince with a Sorceror, because I found the game so stagnant when I played the Lash Prince/Obliterator 'power-list'.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The game is fucked due to the four top armies being Tau, Eldar, Taudar and Eltau.

Space Marines sucked, causing lost sales (seriously? They are you selling point, THEY need to sell).

What they are attempting to do is limit codex creep from game design, but that creates stagnant armies; ie Eldar/Tau do mination, and causes losses insales when the iconic armies (SM and its variants) are better

There is a reason 30K SM is on the increase and that is because of a better internal balance between Heresy armies.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

I play for fun, with lists that are fun, against people whose idea of fun is having a laugh, not panelbeating the opponent until they bleed from their eyes. 

I have no problem with 40k because of this. I don't wish to face tournament armies, because playing to win at all costs is just an abhorrant idea to me. *shrugs* So I am more than happy with the new codex...


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> I don't wish to face tournament armies, because playing to win at all costs is just an abhorrant idea to me. *shrugs* So I am more than happy with the new codex...


This. Playing to win is encouraged; playing to win _at all costs_ is what kills the game.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Part of the change is this is the first codex that includes the expectation of Escalation and Stronghold Assault. I think you have to consider both of those added in before judging the 'nid Codex.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Creon said:


> Part of the change is this is the first codex that includes the expectation of Escalation and Stronghold Assault. I think you have to consider both of those added in before judging the 'nid Codex.


Being as the Harridan is absolutely awful, I don't think it's a major issue :/


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

But power fields on fortifications skew the field in a major way. You have a midfield bastion with power fields, your nids are covered in their whole advance.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Well just so people don't judge me unfairly, I'm talking about bringing the best list I can create with my Codex versus the best list that someone else can create with the new Nid book.

Not going to the FLGS and playing a nublet who just picked up Nids and tabling him as hard as possible.

I'm talking tournament format, competitive game - not funsies.


----------



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Played a game against Tau tonight. Spent longer working with the Tau player to try and figure out a list that might worry him then actually playing (game was lost by turn 2, tabled by turn 3). We couldn't come up with anything. The issue we ran into was that either the army's model count was too low (Nidzilla focus) or the army didn't have enough firepower/survivability to kill anything/get there (swarm focus).

So far the codex seems like a step in the wrong direction since I could at least give him a fight with the prior codex.

I was running (1500):

Prime
2x Venomthropes
2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
Tervigon
30x Termagants
30x Termagants
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
Mawloc

Terrain was fairly thick (slightly more than a fourth) and we were playing Relic. I predict that this edition is going to be quite frustrating.

**EDIT** 
I should add that the problem I'm seeing is in the fact that almost every army out-shoots Nid and Nid's survivability is in the crapper. With the amount of cover denial that armies have access to as well as the terribad saves on Nid everything just dies and we don't have the numbers to compensate.


----------



## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> Being as the Harridan is absolutely awful, I don't think it's a major issue :/


The Hierophant isn't and it's only a small step up in points cost compared to the Harridan (we're talking Escalation here so 300PTS isn't that much:grin But the real interesting choices are the Hierodules imo. Also, just throwing this out there but aren't DISTRACTION CARNIFEXES viable again because of their points decrease?


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Distraction units are only good against bad opponents.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Distraction units are only good against bad opponents.


I don't think he means Carnifexes run as a distraction - the block capitals mean he's referring to a bad meme from /tg/.

I think Carnifexes are pretty good now, 125pts for a Fleet Mc with a not-amazing but solid statline is entirely reasonable.

@Ryu_Niimura - I wasn't counting Forge World stuff as I'm still not sure what the official stance is. Secondly, it's all moot anyway, since even GW tournaments aren't using Escalation.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The Yorkshire Open is using Escalation and Stronghold and all 40k Approved FW stuff, and as a consequence have lost my attendence his year. 

And I'm unfamiliar with the meme, apologies.


----------



## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Sethis said:


> The Yorkshire Open is using Escalation and Stronghold and all 40k Approved FW stuff, and as a consequence have lost my attendence his year.
> 
> And I'm unfamiliar with the meme, apologies.


The meme originated in 4th edition if I'm not mistaking; Carnifexes were dirt cheap and could take the Extended Carapace (I thought that's what it's called but I'm not sure) upgrade for a 2+ save. This resulted in a fortress wall of Carnifexxes leading the charge and was considered completely broken. All the opponent could shoot at were the big heavily armoured beasties hence the meme DISTRACTION CARNIFEX:grin:

@Midnight; I don't think you should exactly because of that reason but I still think they are pretty cool^^.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> The Yorkshire Open is using Escalation and Stronghold and all 40k Approved FW stuff, and as a consequence have lost my attendence his year.


I thought you'd be in the best position to win such an event - Eldar are really good as standard, and you make out like bandits from FW with Warp Hunters and Nightwings as well as the obvious Revenant.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

IntereoVivo said:


> So far the codex seems like a step in the wrong direction since I could at least give him a fight with the prior codex.
> 
> I was running (1500):
> 
> ...


I'll have to sit down with my codex, but that doesn't look like it should be 1500. My new list has 5MCs, and half again as many critters as that.

What exactly were you going for with that list? In my opinion, it looks like you were taking all the specialist bugs, but without what the specialist bugs are there to support. For instance, Mawlocs are much more reliable now if you take lictors to guide them in and stop them scattering. For the cost of 4 of those Biovores, you could have long range firepower that can actually crack light to medium tanks *or* kill troops, and doubles as not-bad in a fight. You're heavy on elites, too light on troops. And you only have two synapse creatures, meaning by turn two any Tau army will have your Feeders eating themselves and your lurkers (most of your army) seeking cover before you can shoot anything. 

This new dex is going to take some working out, but everything has to work together. Some things are support bugs, some are attack bugs. Your list would appear to be 95% support bugs...


----------



## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

could they have made this dex with the supplements in mind, where as a certain supplement will be needed to really help the codex reach a good potential in diffrent areas ie a supplement for a good swarm army one for a good MC army ect?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

kickboxerdog said:


> could they have made this dex with the supplements in mind, where as a certain supplement will be needed to really help the codex reach a good potential in diffrent areas ie a supplement for a good swarm army one for a good MC army ect?


Quite possible. GW cashing in on microtransactions, but selling content instead of additional content. Hey, worked for Assassin's Creed.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

I was going to say that is a new low for games workshop but sure they already hit rock bottom. Its the fact in a tyranid army that you NEED to take some unit is what annoys me. Not even from a competitive view point but from just general playing unless you want to get hammered.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

All armies are like that, with the exception of Tau or Eldar though. It's that either of those armies can technically pick and choose any unit they desire and do well with says about the strength of the list (as opposed to broken units; Baledrakes etc, being the notable such example).


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Irish Commissar said:


> I was going to say that is a new low for games workshop but sure they already hit rock bottom.


The entire video gaming industry is on the microtransaction bandwagon and nobody complains about it. It's just us.



The Irish Commissar said:


> Its the fact in a tyranid army that you NEED to take some unit is what annoys me. Not even from a competitive view point but from just general playing unless you want to get hammered.


What army doesn't?

Yeah, sure, apparently Tau and Eldar are these ultra-brilliant books where everything's viable, but since I've never seen anybody take anything outside of the one or two netlist options, I don't think they are these super-amazing books.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I thought you'd be in the best position to win such an event - Eldar are really good as standard, and you make out like bandits from FW with Warp Hunters and Nightwings as well as the obvious Revenant.


Since FW is disallowed/frowned upon/awkward/irritating to use something like 95% of the time, I don't own any.

However there will be people at the Finals (I could qualify in the heats easily enough) who do have a Revenant or equivalent, and all the Serpent Shields in the game don't help when you become a smoking crater on a 2+ with no cover.



> Yeah, sure, apparently Tau and Eldar are these ultra-brilliant books where everything's viable, but since I've never seen anybody take anything outside of the one or two netlist options, I don't think they are these super-amazing books.


Ignoring Special Characters, there are 31 discrete units in the Eldar codex. In an 1800+pt game, of those, I would call 3 effectively unplayable (Night Spinner, Hemlock, Banshees) and a further 7 (Scorpions, Crimson Hunter, Reapers, Support Battery, Falcon, Wraithlord, Harlies) suboptimal - so not super competitive, but I wouldn't laugh out loud if you put them out in front of me either. That leaves 66% of the codex to be completely and unambiguously playable at the competitive level. Every other unit can be fielded in some fashion that makes it good and useful. By GW standards, that's INCREDIBLY good. Consider the Chaos Dex, which has roughly 12 playable ("playable", mark you, not "good") units from a list of 30 = 40%. Less than half.

The only problem is that the Wave Serpent is so damn points efficient, and puts out so much firepower, and is so survivable, that you end up spending all of your points on them simply because you'd be stupid not to. If they cost 20pts more, or had some kind of FAQ limiting the Shield's shooting potential, I guarantee that Eldar would still be a very solid codex, but we'd see far, far more variety in lists that didn't revolve around them.

Time will tell as regards to which units are useful to Nids, but from what I've seen then they seem to be hovering on the 50% mark? I could be wrong, I don't have the codex in front of me at all.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

There's not really anything you *must* take, only the units that make most sense to take. You don't *need* synapse, but it's sensible to take it. Of the synapse available, some are better than others to take. Of the support choices, some are better than others. 

The only units that people claim are useless now are pyrovores and genestealers. I would even debate those, but then I play friendly rather than competitive (and like running devastator squads armed with 4 heavy flamers in a flamer immolator. It's fun :biggrin

And I got an email this morning from GW saying the Leviathan supplement would be available soon, which focusses on the forward sneaky parts of the hive, like stealers and lictors...


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> However there will be people at the Finals (I could qualify in the heats easily enough) who do have a Revenant or equivalent, and all the Serpent Shields in the game don't help when you become a smoking crater on a 2+ with no cover.


Depending on the points I guess you could spread out a LOT and he can only murderate two per turn, but yeah, not ideal. I thought there might be some loophole with the Str D damage table that would let the Serpent Shield work it's magic forcing them to Glance, but it would appear not.



Sethis said:


> Ignoring Special Characters, there are 31 discrete units in the Eldar codex. In an 1800+pt game, of those, I would call 3 effectively unplayable (Night Spinner, Hemlock, Banshees) and a further 7 (Scorpions, Crimson Hunter, Reapers, Support Battery, Falcon, Wraithlord, Harlies) suboptimal - so not super competitive, but I wouldn't laugh out loud if you put them out in front of me either. That leaves 66% of the codex to be completely and unambiguously playable at the competitive level. Every other unit can be fielded in some fashion that makes it good and useful. By GW standards, that's INCREDIBLY good.


I would have to add Wraithguard, Wraithblades, the Avatar (although he's a Special Character, I think), Pathfinders/Rangers, Shining Spears, Swooping Hawks, and Vypers to your list of 'suboptimal'. Some of them I classify as suboptimal because, well, they're just not that good having either no real advantages or glaring weaknesses (Rangers, the Avatar, Wraithguard), while others I would class as suboptimal because another unit does the same job better (which is why I think you put Falcon in suboptimal - it's perfectly good, but you would never ever bring one over a Wave Serpent. Hawks are in for this - I don't really know why you'd bring them over Warp Spiders).

I think a Codex is just as bad when it has a lot of supposedly 'viable' builds but still one that blows all the others out the water, because at that point it doesn't matter how many lists you could potentially build, you'll only see the same one. Of course, GW will never make a perfectly balanced Codex because they don't understand the game, but I suppose a man can dream.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> The entire video gaming industry is on the microtransaction bandwagon and nobody complains about it. It's just us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Usually the problem is the weapon and its unique options. Tau tends to have units which have multiple access to strong multi-spectrum weapons (like the Ion Cannon; obviously best on the Riptide, but available on other units, or other numerous S8 Large Blast templates dotted around the codex, i,e the Fighters or the Bombers). Eldar on the other hand are tailored and have units which are required to do unique jobs, and they do them extremely well (except Banshees or Dark Reapers, really), but lack midground stuff (or used to, before Wraithknights and Overwatch combined to make them "easy bake"). Combine the two, and shazam. 

Incidentally, overwatch, combined with high strength average weapons and rerolls makes Tau's "weakness" on paper ignorable.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've had success with both Wraithguard and Wraithblades in conjunction with a Spiritseer, Wraithguard effectively being scoring Fire Dragons with better toughness, and Wraithblades as a 10-man melee blob or 5-man non-ignorable flanking anchor. Shining Spears are perfectly functional - I think the reason you don't see more of them is because the models are shit and expensive. They're a nice survivable MC/backfield hunter unit for roughly 150pts.

Hawks are a bit eeeeh, but don't scatter and can Skyleap dropping templates all game before guaranteeing you Linebreaker on the last turn for very little points investment, as well as rocking a Storm Bolter each. They also systematically destroy Fire Warriors - S4 AP4 Ignores Cover Large Blast at BS4/5 upsets them no end.

Rangers are cheap, and can contribute to the game from T1, unlike super-Jetbikes. They work well as Quad Gun shooters, esp a squad of 10 with a Farseer. Pathfinders I ignored since Illic is required to use them and he's jank. Vypers are a great way to add more fast dakka to your list if you don't want to dilute your list with more Troop choices (and consequently more Serpents).

The Avatar functions as a shorter ranged Wraithknight, and makes a nice Eldarzilla combo with 2 Wraithknights and a Lord. Fleet really helped him, as did the extra wound.

This is of course all pretending that Serpents aren't the instant answer to all your problems. So long as they stay as they are, they'll continue to be the go-to unit of the codex, but in a tabletop where they don't exist, I think the aforementioned units have places in army lists.

Anyway, this is a Nid discussion topic, so I think we'd better discuss Eldar strategy another time if that's cool with you.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Well for example if I was to make a good tyranid list, not even competitive I have to bring at least 5 synapse creatures at least in my opinion. That can be a lot if points considering that a winged give tyrant is some odd 200 points with various upgrades and then you have warriors that are not cheaper and zoenthropes aren't exactly the toughest unit going


----------



## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> For the cost of 4 of those Biovores, you could have long range firepower that can actually crack light to medium tanks *or* kill troops, and doubles as not-bad in a fight. You're heavy on elites, too light on troops. And you only have two synapse creatures, meaning by turn two any Tau army will have your Feeders eating themselves and your lurkers (most of your army) seeking cover before you can shoot anything.
> 
> This new dex is going to take some working out, but everything has to work together. Some things are support bugs, some are attack bugs. Your list would appear to be 95% support bugs...


A couple questions:

1) What model were you thinking of to replace the Biovores?
2) What attack bugs would you recommend and what are their chances vs Tau?
3) Has anyone actually won with this codex yet? If so, can you post your list? If you haven't played, what do you think will win?

A couple comments:

1) I actually had no problem with synapse because by the time it mattered I was dead. 
2) As I mathhammer this codex I don't see any reliable tank popping or assault units. Obviously other people see something I don't so I'd love it if you'd share.


----------



## NostromanNeckTie (Sep 3, 2013)

I think Tyranids have a rather good chance against Tau. Yes, they can ignore cover, but EVERYTHING in the army doesn't ignore cover. Also "The Horror" is VERY useful against them seeing as nothing in the army is Fearless. Being able to force pinning checks on 'tides and such at a -2 penalty is great. Hopefully you can get it on your Flyrants so they can fly up the board and start pinning things. If not, broodlords get it automatically, you can infiltrate them up and get in range.

And there's no telling what the new formations are gonna do to Broodlords/Genestealers and Lictors. I'm excited.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I've managed to win a game against orks, and come close to a draw against guard (he won by objectives but kill tallies were about even). I haven't pitted them against a more recent dex like tau or necron yet, but I have faced these with my necron army. 

I'm not saying it would be an easy game, but I do believe nids have a solid chance. I guess we'll see when I can arrange a game by next month hopefully.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

IntereoVivo said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1) What model were you thinking of to replace the Biovores?
> 2) What attack bugs would you recommend and what are their chances vs Tau?
> 3) Has anyone actually won with this codex yet? If so, can you post your list? If you haven't played, what do you think will win?


1) On paper at least, vs Tau the Exocrine should work really well. The large blast will get squads, or take out battlesuits with equal ease. It also can pop light to medium tanks, given it's S7. And it needn't replace all of them :wink:
2) In my last game vs Tau, once they made it in my Hormogaunts minced Fire Warriors. Using venomthropes or cover enough should make it in if you plan ahead. Raveners also work well as they are sickeningly fast, but you need to utilise cover really well. Basically, any attack bug is going to have a hard time, unless you can make something else look like more of a threat. Take the faster ones though, as ideally you only want to face 1, 2 turns tops of shooting. Gargoyles are a very good, cheap distraction unit that look like enough of a threat that they should draw fire. Or alternatively take out Riptides 
3) In the next couple of weeks I plan to start testing my nids, but I'm confident I shall do at least as well as I used to, and hoping for better as I can now afford more of my bugs



> A couple comments:
> 
> 1) I actually had no problem with synapse because by the time it mattered I was dead.
> 2) As I mathhammer this codex I don't see any reliable tank popping or assault units. Obviously other people see something I don't so I'd love it if you'd share.


Nids have always been better at popping tanks in person. Now they have a couple more options for at range, and a bunch more haywire (which many bigger bugs can take for 'pop then charge') it should be even easier...


----------



## ShinoRagnar (May 31, 2010)

IntereoVivo said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1) What model were you thinking of to replace the Biovores?
> 2) What attack bugs would you recommend and what are their chances vs Tau?
> ...


2. Have you considered face-rushing your opponent?

If i knew i was up against tau (and i had the models) i whould try something like:

2x Flying Hive Tyrant, 1 with Yrmgarl upgrade (for 2+ armor save), 1 with +1 reserve rolls ~ 400 pts
3x Hive Crone ~ 400 pts
3x Mawloc (possibly 1 Trygon Prime instead if you need the synapse) ~ 400 pts
20x Rippers with deepstrike upgrade ~ 300
---
Tot: 1500

Against tau you need to be fast to lock them in close combat. Also anything in your codex beats anything they got in theirs in CC so the mawlocs should be sufficient. Also make sure to NOT deepstrike the mawlocs on their units so that they don't misshap.

(Your goal here is to table them since your rippers can't hold objectives)


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ShinoRagnar said:


> 2. Have you considered face-rushing your opponent?
> 
> If i knew i was up against tau (and i had the models) i whould try something like:
> 
> ...


Tau have a *lot* of Interceptor, so I wouldn't run a reserve list, and they have a lot of access to good Skyfire to boot. I would run with something like:
2 Winged Hive Tyrants with Devourers
2 broods of 2 Carnifexes with Adrenal Glands, no other biomorphs
2 Tervigons
2 broods of 30 Termagants.
9 Biovores.

Something like that. Biovores are really nice against Fire Warriors - if they're running heavy Battlesuits instead of Fire Warriors, swap them out for minimum-sized squads of Genestealers with Broodlords for The Horror, which is pretty effective at neutralising Tau units.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

If you don't deepstrike Mawlocs onto their units, then you are missing the point of Mawlocs. Aim anywhere other than their units, and they are a rubbish Trygon...

Though I was trying to suggest minor changes, rather than a complete overhaul. Basically, you cannot outshoot Tau, so don't try. Have INYOURFACE bugs, with some effective shooting as support. Anything you can get into close combat, even termagants, will eat Tau for breakfast.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> Basically, you cannot outshoot Tau, so don't try. Have INYOURFACE bugs, with some effective shooting as support. Anything you can get into close combat, even termagants, will eat Tau for breakfast.


This, _so much this_. The only reason Eldar and Tau are absolutely dominating the internet meta is that nobody believes combat is a thing and tries to outshoot them.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Although i am not a tyranid player i think that hormagaunts are better against tau as they can get in your face quicker and their assaults can be vicious. But then tervagons are important synapse creatures so you would want to take them as synapse creatures. I think though the worst thing to do is face shooty army like tau or eldar with your shooty units. They just dont have the range and wll not be able to compete in a shootout.


----------



## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Raveners can move up to 18" ignoring all difficult terrain in the first turn, then can charge turn two with a threat range of 14-24", 5 attacks each and rerolling their charge range, having shot beforehand too with S4/5 assault3 weapons. They are the fastest thing on foot in the army, but you have to distract from them/shroud them or they will get shot to bits, and make sure there is synapse in range until they hit combat. Not even Hormogaunts can keep up with them.


----------



## Igni Ferroque (Dec 7, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Tau have a *lot* of Interceptor, so I wouldn't run a reserve list, and they have a lot of access to good Skyfire to boot. I would run with something like:
> 2 Winged Hive Tyrants with Devourers
> 2 broods of 2 Carnifexes with Adrenal Glands, no other biomorphs
> 2 Tervigons
> ...



I dont believe anyone has pointed this out, but this list is illegal. You have 5 heavy support choices. 

However, if you drop the two extra squads of biovores and upgrade your fex's with twin dev's x2 you've got yourself a massive amount of rolling fire power.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Igni Ferroque said:


> I dont believe anyone has pointed this out, but this list is illegal. You have 5 heavy support choices.
> 
> However, if you drop the two extra squads of biovores and upgrade your fex's with twin dev's x2 you've got yourself a massive amount of rolling fire power.


Sorry, I assumed it was 2000pts, in which case the Tyrants, Tervigons and termagants fill the two HQs, four Troops needed to unlock the additional FOC.

But yeah, more Carnifexes would work - it's how I'd run the army, personally.


----------



## Igni Ferroque (Dec 7, 2010)

It would be a great 2k list. The sporemine increased strength would be devastating from a combination of 9 biovores. You'd almost want to miss rather than hit with all those mines.


----------



## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

That is a nice 2k list, midnight. 

But I think tfexes still have game as a linebreaker in any scenario, even against tau. 2 templates a turn hurts, and it's pretty hard to take them down. The 2+ save is gravy, and it might/will die, but if it does there are more potent units to follow it up. 

Distraction units in the new nids book - like raveners and hormagaunts - are actually good. You need to keep them in synapse - and it'll have to be a flyrant as nothing else is fast enough - but they will be on the opponent t2. If they get shot to bits (a distinct possibility) then the other 90% of your army is unmolested. If they make into melee, then shit dies. 

The new book was disappointing at first, but from my limited experience I can say I like it and nids aren't dead yet.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

DivineEdge said:


> Distraction units in the new nids book - like raveners and hormagaunts - are actually good. You need to keep them in synapse - and it'll have to be a flyrant as nothing else is fast enough - but they will be on the opponent t2. If they get shot to bits (a distinct possibility) then the other 90% of your army is unmolested. If they make into melee, then shit dies.


I agree completely, but why call them 'distraction units'? Why not run an entire army of fast dudes?


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

So what something like 2 winged hive tyrants all hormagaunts and raveners with some zoenthropes and warriors for synapse and maybe throw in sme carnafexs


----------

