# Why did Night Haunter do it?



## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

We know a few things about Night Haunter...

* He has the powers of Foresight, he could always see the worst outcomes possible.

* He knew exactly what was going to happen, as evident with what he said to the Emporer when they first met.

* He knew his actions and his legion were going to cause problems. 

* He knew the Assassin was going to come and kill him and he let it happen.

It seems almost as if he knew exactly how his entire story was going to play out and accepted that nothing he did would change it, so became a hapless victim playing out his part since it was somewhat neccessary. 

My personal reverenance for Night Haunter's plight aside, do you think there was some specific explanation for all of it? Do you think anyone would have understood and respected him for it? Do you think his death meant anything whatsoever? Or that like everything else in the 40k universe, it means nothing, it simply was?

It's a rare person that knows everything that will happen to them, even the end, and accepts it without emotion and the attempt to change it.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I'm not well educated in the lore of the Night Haunter, but I think that in his youth he tried to go against the visions he had, but each and every time he failed, leading him to believe that he had no control whatsoever on the ongoing events of the world. I can't say for sure that this is correct; you could say that he was given the chance and power to beat fate itself, yet he succumbed to the sheer power of his visions. Either way, I can't think badly of him.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

If you have trouble getting your head around this try reading The Watchmen. Dr Manhatten knows exactly how everything is play out through the whole of time. He doesn't change his actions because for him all points in time are simultaneous.

Besides that, Konrad knew he was the bad guy, he also knew that he had to play the part. When the Emperor sent the assassin after him Konrad knew he was going to die, just like he knew he would turn to Chaos. However, just because he knew it would happen doesn't mean that he would like it. In truth he was probably looking foward to his death so the nightmare would end.

Night Haunter wasn't realy evil, he was just playing the part of the bad guy.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Depending on how you view the ability to view the future. Was he able to merely see the event, or was he able to see the events, all the way to the event?

If he could only see the event itself, then If he took steps to try and prevent the incident, those steps may be exactly what causes the event. The movie Deja Vu with Denzel Washington. Every time he tried to send information back to prevent something, he merely provided the information for the event to happen.

If he could see every event leading up to the event, then he knew there was no way to change that event as it was already written. To try and alter those events and who know exactly what would happen.

My guess is that he just took those events as "this is what is happening" and just went with the flow.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Not all the events even came true. His view of the future was the darkest possible outcome of situations. Some of them came true, he knew the Emperor's arrival would eventually cause the destruction of Nostramo for example, but he also thought that the Emperor would kill both him and Fulgrim, this never happened. and when you say that the Night Haunter wasn't evil that isn;t true. Konrad wasn't really evil, but undoubtedly the Night Haunter became evil.

"He knew that he was two men. One was... just and righteous -" the daemon spat the words, disgusted "- whilst the other ... mm... the other had felt the kiss of Chaos all its life. One thrived on focus. The other ate fear."

That quote hardly makes the Night Haunter sound nice, however it also makes it clear that deep down Konrad was not evil.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok, point taken lol. I was using Night Haunter and Konrad Kurze interchangably. Don't forget though that Night Haunter was a super hero crimefighter at one point.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

this reminds me a bit of the matrix when neo is talking to the oracle.

NH: oh and dont worry about the vase
Emperor: what vase?... ohhh opps!
*smash
Emperor: im so sorry!
NH: thats ok, i said dont worry about! but whats really going to cook your noodle is would you have broke it if i didnt say anything?
Emperor: hmmmmm


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## PowerEncarnate (Apr 15, 2009)

I think he didnt do anything to stop the assassin as a way to seperate himself from his legion because he knew it had been infilltrated by the criminal element that he so hated from his homeworld but couldnt trust his ability to tell him who he could trust. and if you think about it his siding with horus may have just bben a huge undercover job on his part with his death a way to deliver his evidence. there was noway he could comeback after but he could still complete his mission


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Well in my Fluff that im doing now he realises that he needs to turn if the Imperium is to survive (thus giving him a reason) but in reality i think he had no other choice but to do it with him about to be punished by the Emperor and his Legion could possibly be disbanded.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Maybe he tried to change the future, but everything he did made what he saw happen.

For the assasin thing, NH KNEW that the assasin was comming, and when the assasin came, there was no one but NH to welcome her(or try to kill her). He made everything he was able to do to prove that what he said to the Emperor (something like "I know what you are going to do with me") was true, and so the Emperor's act (killing one of his sons) completly justified his betrayal.

But there is no evidence that Night Haunter is dead. The assasin never came back from her mission, and the video-record stops just before the "killing blow" (how the hell did they manage to recover the video-record?). However there have been no signs of Konrad Curse/Night Haunter since that event, so i think we have a 99.9% chance to be correct to say that he is dead


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Once you see the future you can't change it, by definition. If you see the future it must be fixed, because if you can change it then your ‘vision’ was just a bad guess.

The act of seeing the future fixes it in place, like Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment. The future exists as quantum possibility, but once it has been observed it can not be denied and all action, and inaction, lead to that end.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I like night haunter, but in all honesty he was probably ass over tea kettle insane just in a quite depressed way. After all most signs point to him having multiple personalities. I think he know this, and let himeself be killed because he know he couldn't change who he was so let himself die since during his fight against evil he became all he hated. Think a more crazy batman that went over the deep end.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

Also by NH trying to change things would end up making things worse? 

In testament to what can happen when you try to change things for the better the butterfly effect film??? (good film by way)


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## PowerEncarnate (Apr 15, 2009)

Curze didn't see the future. He saw the worst possible future that could come to pass as long as things remain unchanged. The problem comes that if you dont know what actions cause the results you forsaw then it becomes very difficult to affect a change.


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## Fallen Angel Sammael (Jun 18, 2009)

He just saw what he had become and wanted to end it all....


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Am I the only one who's listened to the 'Dark King/The Lightning Tower' audio CD? Curze went insane, overwhelmed by the vision of the devastation Horus wreaked, attacked Dorn, nearly killing him - and from then he knew he had no option but to break out of custody, killing dozens of Fist and Children elite Marines, and take his Chapter off into the darkness. The visions, presumably a gift of Chaos to effect his corruption, steadily eroded his sanity, until he became the Night itself...


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

I do not know allot about night haunter but maybe he wanted to show his legion and Horus how it would end... no matter what they would do...


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

don't worry...games workshop will ressurect him an use the catch all excuse 'the warp did it'


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

darklove said:


> Once you see the future you can't change it, by definition. If you see the future it must be fixed, because if you can change it then your ‘vision’ was just a bad guess.
> 
> The act of seeing the future fixes it in place, like Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment. The future exists as quantum possibility, but once it has been observed it can not be denied and all action, and inaction, lead to that end.


I beg to differ, the future can not be fixed. 'Foresight' could show 1 of untold amouts of possibilities and while the NH would have only been ablew to see the worst outcome, it wasnt the only one. The way its been worded means that of all the possibilities of the future, he could only see the worst. Also look at Eldrad, or any eldar farseer; they are able to see the paths or 'strings' of the future and follow one of them to achieve the best outcome. To be able to achieve the best outcome, one must know the results of more then one path, hence viewing multiple futures must be possible.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Nighthaunter let himself be killed to prove a point. He had said that the Emperor would kill him, and allowing M'Shen to do her duty proved him right over his father.
As many others have posted, he only ever saw the darkest possible future. None of these things were set in stone, but his mindset, I think, made him want to make these things to come true, unconsciously, so that he would be correct in his pessimism.
His Superhero days were both the making and breaking of him. It shows that he is willing to do anything, the worst possible things you can think if, to try to make his people free. He didn't do this by opposing evil, but by _becoming_ the worst possible evil that could exist on Nostramo(sp?). I haven't heard the NH audio-book, but like others have said it was the increasing domination of Nighthaunter over Kurze that pushed him to do what he did. In a way it was tradgedy. But, to the same extent, it was a self-indulgent masochism that made him do what he did. He saw the worst of things and, by gum, he was going to be proved right, even if it took him doing the terrible things he saw in his head that lead to those outcomes!!

GFP


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Terrorising Nostramo was a choice, but in a way he was right, it worked for quite some time. The only real bone of contention between he and his brother Primarchs before going insane was that he executed prisoners - basically to employ the same terror tactics as on his home. Seeing the devastation wreaked by Horus upon the galaxy drove Kurze temporarily mad, and splintered his psyche into the two disparate personalities - since he had already created the persona of the 'Night Haunter', it was a relatively simple matter for it to take control, and attack, almost killing, Dorn. Locked up following this incident, brooding constantly on his situation, Kurze was driven further and further back into the recesses of his mind, until he was just a memory...in that way, it'sd both moree tragic, and less tragic, than Fulgrim. Kurze did it all himself, there was no outside agent, he was just too weak to fight the horrors that he had seen, and to strive for the perfect galaxy that most of the others believed in. The fact that he did it himself though meant that there truly could never be any redemption for him - he didn't choose Chaos per se, or choose Heresy...but he chose to be evil, and there could only ever be one outcome.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

The emperor ordered konrad to use terror tactics and then when there was a big fuss from the high lords of terra and all the beuracrats so he used konrad as a scapegoat and thats part of what turned him.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

jack said:


> The emperor ordered konrad to use terror tactics and then when there was a big fuss from the high lords of terra and all the beuracrats so he used konrad as a scapegoat and thats part of what turned him.


An interesting theory, but, unless they've made changes to the fluff of which I am unaware, the High Lords did not exist until after the Emperor was interred in the Throne, so that cannot be true. It also doesn't fit with the Emperor's actions in general...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Old fluff states that the emperor, Dorn and a few other (that remained) loyal primarchs were getting a bit sick of the Night Lords anyway.

Im not sure why Night lords got landed in the Chaos space marine codex, or why they are even mentioned.

Seeing as their fluff contradicts the rules.

Night Lords Hate other chaos space marines, and are the only legion to never suffer infighting. They have Remained as a Chapter.

They dislike all kinds of 'religion' and see the other CSM as just pawns of the gods.

So i think The Night Haunters motives lie in the fact that his legion was:
1. All about anarchy, and just moved to spread terror
2. Was full of alsorts of murderors, thieves, rapists, sadists etc recruited from their home planet
3. Was shunned by all other Primarchs except Fulgrim and Horus
4. Was on the verge of being declared heretics anyway
5. It seemed a bit pre-destined that Kurze would turn out bad. He is very much the Tragic Hero of the fallen Primarchs, as he accepts his fate without a fight.

-----

Post Kurze, the Night lords remained fully unified and as a chapter. Which, probably makes them, alongside the Iron warriors and Black Legion, the only other complete chapter in the CSM legions, one of the more dangerous.


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## Eliphas (Jun 23, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Night Lords Hate other chaos space marines, and are the only legion to never suffer infighting. They have Remained as a Chapter.
> 
> They dislike all kinds of 'religion' and see the other CSM as just pawns of the gods.
> 
> ...


This is one of the things I like best about the Night Lords. They aren't truly "Chaos" Space Marines, they're more like the rebels or anarchists. They fight using the tactcis Konrad taught them, and nothing more, they don't bother using daemons (execpt for maybe Furies from time to time) because they view them as unnecasary.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

I would say that he rebelled because he was resigned to his fate. Also, he was insane!


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

The night lords are lead by a Daemon Prince so does that not make them Chaos space marines.
After there primach died they did fall to chaos although they did stay together as a chapter. They lost sight of there goal to use Fear as a means to an end it has now became the end for them.
Kuze was affect by chaos all his life but was able to create a artifact to stop its corruption.
Also he is 100% died his head was cut off by the assassin when she fled.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes, its a long arguement that the Night Lords are led by a Daemon prince, thus they are Chaos.

GWs argument, and support for the anti-chaos/religion idea, was that a Night lord with Daemonic attributes was simply changed by the Warp, not by god-specific mutation.

And please remember, 'Lords of the Night' or whatever the book is called that mentioned this Daemon Prince with to begin with, is from Black Library, not actual GW fluff. So its influence on the 40k universe shouldnt be taken to heart, as, it was merely a story written for a make-believe universe.

So, stick with whats true....the GW fluff


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i personally think the emperor knew what was going on with Konrad Curze and just could not understand him. He grew weary of him and abandoned him. He sent dog "jackass" Rogal Dorn to put him in his place, knowing of the bitterness they had between them. unfortunatley konrad kicked his ass and fled.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> An interesting theory, but, unless they've made changes to the fluff of which I am unaware, the High Lords did not exist until after the Emperor was interred in the Throne, so that cannot be true. It also doesn't fit with the Emperor's actions in general...


I dont think it was the high lords but the rest i have got from a novel about the night lords called "Lord of the Night".


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Lord of the night is set when please? During the Heresy? Did the Night Lords go to Terra? I'm not sure if they partook in the siege...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i might be wrong but i remember having a conversation where someone said that the night lords actually intervened with the dark angels fleet on there way to terra, thats why.... they were too late. which i think is a little bullshit but whatever right?


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

well in my eyes the night haunter was a product of his enviroment but with the visions it made him able to have a purpose on nostromo. maybe as time went by he had further visions of the future and being as he had always known a dark life just accepted what he was and what was to come.

but a little idea i had was that maybe he had two souls in one body like alpharius/omegon were 1 soul in two bodys. maybe IF the emperor had a pact with chaos about sharing the primarchs the two souls were shared between Him and chaos so thats how you get one being a good personality and one being bad.

i defiantly think the emperor knows more about what was going to happen, seeing as some of the primarchs already knew, alot of xenos and even alot of normal humans were in on it before it came to be. so a being of unparrelled power like the emperor and not knowing whats happening all around him just doesnt wash with me. hell the emperor might have even got the info when he soothed curzes fits when they first meet.

at the end of the day all of the royal family of terra are viscious killers weither they are seen as just and good like say dorn or outright gruesome and bloody like angron. the emperor has many times shown he is just the same as commented by people in the HH novels but at least Konrad Curze knew what he was and weither he accepted it in the end or not, he seems to have chosen not to go down the road of chaos.
he could have lived and had untold power but he chose death instead and he welcomed it with open arms with is quite noble a thing to do.

maybe he saw the death and destruction that the emperor had and was going to cause and maybe he saw the same if chaos took power and in the end he didnt want a part of any of it. maybe Konrad Curze was the only sane one in the 40k universe.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

Its set after the heresy.
It definitely said that the emperor sanctioned terror tactics and konrad sacrificed his humanity to protect the imperium and bring order when only brutality could bring it. Then he was reined in and humiliated. The emperor betrayed him and used him as a scapegoat and he joined the heretics. He could have told the truth and say how the emp had ordered him to commit those atrocitys but he didnt. Then Rogal Dorn and him got into an argument about it and konrad hit Dorn. After that he had no choice. The reason he turned from the imperium was because he was used and abused by the emperor.

This is all summed up from the book. Its called Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier. Its quite a good read if anybodies interested.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

jack said:


> Its set after the heresy.
> It definitely said that the emperor sanctioned terror tactics and konrad sacrificed his humanity to protect the imperium and bring order when only brutality could bring it. Then he was reined in and humiliated. The emperor betrayed him and used him as a scapegoat and he joined the heretics. He could have told the truth and say how the emp had ordered him to commit those atrocitys but he didnt. Then Rogal Dorn and him got into an argument about it and konrad hit Dorn. After that he had no choice. The reason he turned from the imperium was because he was used and abused by the emperor.
> 
> This is all summed up from the book. Its called Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier. Its quite a good read if anybodies interested.


AFAIK though, any contradiction by HH books supersedes this - and while Dorn and he certainly argued, Kurze was not aware of the 'fight' really more of a brutal assault, he bashed Dorns chest in, almost killing him. No mention is made of the Emperor's sanction that I recall - though this proves it neither way. It implies that he did it, thinking it was the only way, but under his own momentum, not under orders.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

does anyone else think with all the emperors vast knowledge and for the amount of time he has lived its rather strange how he has nearly no parenting skills what so ever. if he had then half the mess that happened/going to happen would never have happened! what a jackass.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I suppose, except that he didn't get much chance...especially splitting his time between 20 of them, :laugh:


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I think that Konrad Curze saw the hypocrisy in the great crusade, claiming you are saving humanity by grinding it under your boot heal. He knew that the Imperium could only be held together by fear and oppression, something the Imperium of the 41st millenium proves.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

and it works well so maybe Curzes way of thinking was the sainist way. its a shame people didnt see that but then they didnt envisage the imperium turning into what it has i suppose.


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## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

no...Konrad was not as lucky as other primarch's and had no family he grew up on the streets and had to kill to live and he brought peace through fear and killing his enemie's not unlike the imperium. his visions however were what the outcome would be, say a unit of devastators were going to be destroyed by an ambush, no matter what he done they would have been destroyed in an ambush and in the end just done very little to try and stop the event, he knew his planet would be destroyed and that he would be killed so he came to accept every event that happened to him.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i have to agree with unknown primarc, the emperor's long life should have taught him how to raise and nurture his twenty children. BUT that's not why he made them, he didnt make them because he wanted kids, no he made them to lead his vast armies across the galaxy, that is why i think he didnt do much about all the shit they were going through. yeah he had somewhat of an emotional connection with them but for some the primarchs were putting more in than the emp was giving out, hence the heresy. 

in my opinion the nighthaunter is the most heroic of them all, fuck Dorn and Guilliman and Sanguinius, this guy had the worst visions imaginable and like everyone said he accepted them. who the hell can do that? he lived his whole life knowing how it would end and knowing what his father would do to him, quite possibly the only person that could have taken away the horrifying visions. he had some serious balls to still fight for the imperium even then and i think the only time he cracked was when he beat the living shit out of Dorn.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yep i agree, the night haunter is such a quality character that you could write some seriously good stuff into his psyche. plus with his split personality disorder you can imagine the conversations he would have with himself. lets hope they actually make a HH novel that centres around the primarch instead of his lackys and that primarch be night haunter.
but id settle for sanguinius or angron if nobody dares try do konrad curze, both would be quite amazing to read about.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with Jack. From all the books that I have read on the 40K universe, Lord of the Night gives the best background on the Night Haunter. It is a Cracking good read. Zho Shaal is Damn cool too.


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