# Calling all Chaos: How would you play your CSM army?



## koosbeer

Im wondering what kind of tactics you would use with your CSM army against close combat specialists like a Black templar army or a Tyranid army? I would like an example that explains the kind of tactics per squad like "obliterators stay in deployment zone and shoot them"

I havent played a single game yet but want to be as prepared as possible when throwing down against the above mentioned armies. I have a list posted under army list for a 2000 pt game that u can look at for more detail on what i have (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7277).

This thread can also help to share some tactics among us traitors 

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Here it is. A summary of what everyone posted with a general format for our Chaos Tactica. Please feel free to add comments on formating and sections and so on. We also require a lot more information that will help the newer Chaos players (me as well) and just as a good tactical document. There are certain things I marked with red where I would love some clarification and more information.

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*Tactics:*

*General*

Always use your units as intended. If the squad specializes in CC then they will never be as effective shooting as they will be assaulting. Another factor is coordination. The squad may not be as effective against the enemy squad but by adding a HQ to them (joining in the fight) they will be more effective in the specific scenario.

Speed is very important because it allows you to choose your battles. By adding Rhinos and LR to your army you will allow them to deploy more rapidly and choose the battles they want or don't want.

Watch the point match up of your squads. If there is a very large CC squad, use more tough units that are cheaper to tie them up for a few turns. This well help you to control the battle.

Play against the mission, not the army. 
1. Use your H2H troops to counter charge oncoming assault troops.
2. Spread your vehicles out to contest key locations on your final two turns.
3. Don't bother engaging units that have no strategic value; if it's not a scoring unit, ignore it.
4. If your enemy is built for H2H, stay ranged and shoot. There's no shame in walking backwards to get off one more round of shooting; it's a few more dead marines.

Combining the various cult troops enables Chaos to have their specialty units. 

Balance is important, so field a solid core of infantry that can handle multiple situations: ranged combat, assault, staying power & speed.
Then back the core up with dedicated units; e.g. vehicle-hunting squads, powerful close combat specialists and the like.
If points allow, throw in a really fast squad or two that can zip to where they are needed and take out support elements like basilisks, broadside battlesuits, heavy weapons teams and the like.

*Unit specific*

Plague marines

They are very tough and will not necessarily kill the squad they are up against but the squad will have a very hard time killing them

Thousand Sons

Use the Thousand Sons to absorb some fire (effective due to their Invulnerable save) and whittle down the enemy squads. They can als0 be used to tie squads up on CC. Shooting and then moving backwards is also very effective with the TS. They are slow and purposeful so getting high rolls on that will also help a lot. They can also Rapid fire and move back (thus hoping for the high Slow and Purposeful rolls).

Using the Aspiring Sorcerer in the TS squad with Doombolt or Bolt of Change also helps (more info on this please)

Raptors

They can be used to pick off straggle enemy units or to take care of some of the vehicles (with melta bombs). They can also go behind the enemy lines to provide some crossfire and hopefully entice the enemy to split their forces.

Terminators

Providing them with a Mark of Tzeentch will make them very effective in CC against most units.

Khorne Berzerkers

Use the Berserker to assault into squads that are tied up in combat. The Khorne Berzerkers are the CC specialists of the Chaos Army.

Havocs

Placing the Havocs in a Rhino will enable them to fire from the Firing points on the Rhino (when the Rhino is not moving). They can also re-deploy very effectively from the Rhino. A squad of Havocs with 4 missile launchers can be very effective against a swarm or horde army. Let the missiles scatter and they will hit something in a Tyranid or Orc army.

Noise Marines

They can be very effective against Marine enemies but they all need to be equipped with the Sonic Blaster. (need more information on Noise Marines - some explanations why they are so effective and so on)

Defilers

Use the Defiler as your long range fire but don't be afraid to get him into CC with infantry. Just be carefull of Powerfists and meltabombs

Chosen Chaos Space Marines

Infiltrating chosen with plasma guns or meltas also works great for getting that larger units first turn. 

*Vs. Tyranids*

Deploy 0 - 10" in to provide yourself with as many turns of firing as can be had. Remember to get good LOS deployment so you can start firing as soon as possible. You need to kill as many as possible before they get into CC (HtH). Their number advantage will mean that some of the rolls will get through and will result in unit loss. Sitting back and letting the Tyranids come to you helps you to survive much longer.

The larger tyranid monsters needs to be targeted by your bigger weapons until they are dead. 

Using large template weapons against Tyranids helps a lot as it will kill a few at a time and you need the numbers down when they get to you eventually.

Try to be in cover when assaulted and even assault into cover. You will survive much longer as you will assault with the Tyranids and not after them (clarify why please)

First turn fire lascannons into winged hive tyrants, Zoanthropes, and tyrant with guard. Battle cannon blasts aim for the infamously "pain in the rear" Genestealers. Use rhinos to narrow their LOS and bottle neck them to be able to get to you the only option for the tyranid player's bulk of his force is to go where you want him, use that to your advantage. A moving wall of rhino's and LRshould corral them and keep them contained easily till you can deal with them forth right.

*Vs. Black Templars (BT)*

If the BT are pedestrian templars (refer to BT Tactica for better understanding) make sure to destroy the bigger squads before moving on to the next one. If they manage to live through the shooting they will be able to move forward due to a special rule and then assault you. They are generally better in CC than the CSM so try to shoot them to pieces but if you have to go into CC try to charge first to deny them the extra attack. Never let the squad with the Chaplain or Champion charge you.

Avoid the bigger slower templar units.

Charging the bigger BT squads with the Deamon Prince will help tie them up and you may be able to destroy them with the Deamon Prince. A disadvantage of charging the squad with your Deamon Prince is that you will not be able to fire at them any more. So charge the squad that is hiding or the one that is trying to flank. The winged Deamon Prince is fast enough to counter such a move.

Disrupting their forward charge by targeting 1 or 2 squads at a time will result in them being spaced out. This will enable you to swamp 1 squad at a time and also use their forward movement to bring the squads into line of fire. Large formations of marines should take fire from well placed defilers. the battle cannon will not only blow apart their armor but is Str 8 Ap 3. 

For an added punch use a squad of entrenched Obliterators and blast away at the marines with plasma cannons. If you couple this with the medium range fire power of either Thousand sons or the Noise Marines not much should be left to CC you. Its a matter of target Priority.

Very important when fighting BT is watch out for the Emperor's Champion. Make sure to charge the unit with the chaplain otherwise when he charges the squad becomes very difficult to defeat. 
*
Vs. Imperial Guard*

Depending on how the player plays this may be helpful. Our imperial guard player plays static guard, tons of heavy weapons and big nasty tanks. Fast troops with melta capability will deal with the tanks handsomely. Flamers will take out their entrenched troops.

*Vs. Tau*

Tau player plays a ridiculous amount of skimmers. The troops are easy, if you can CC him you wil win. The main focus should be their big guns, Ion heads, rail guns, and broadside squads should take target priority. Take those down and you shouldn't have a problem with the rest.

*Vs. Necrons*

First turn hit the monoliths with as much ordinance and lascannon fire as you can. If you manage to cripple the monoliths and either destroy them or immobilize them you should be fine. this will limit their ability to move. If they move they leave the safety of their WBB ridiculousness. If they stay put you can out maneuver them simply and blast them from a distance. Remember you can't get rid of its power matrix meaning that it's partical whip still hurts, stay farther then 18" away.

*Vs. Eldar*

Learn their models and what each squad is capable of. Harliquins, CC them with tzeentch terminators. Howling Banshee's, shoot them with bolter fire even that will drop them fast. Striking scorpions, assault them with more berzerkers then they have scorpions, or shoot them. Gaurdians are a simple matter, if there's an avatar lascannon him to death then assault the guardians, if theres no avatar assault the guardians. Pathfinders, Lash them out of cover with a slaanesh sorcerer and then crush them in CC, they can't stand up to CC.
*
Deployment:*

*Scenario 1*
- Deploy Berzerkers behind the gun line of CSM
- Deploy the big guns behind the CSM gun line and fire at the oncoming units
- When they get close spread out the CSM and when nthe enemy hits pile in.
- Charge the berzerkers and counter assault units that were hidden behind the CSM into the enemy on your turn

*Scenario 2*
Dividing your force into three equal sized forces, with a focus on mutually supporting squads. Do this so you will not be strong against one opponent at the cost of being weak against others. As for assault specialists, set up heavy support so there is as little of the battlefield they cannot reach. In addition, overlap the fields of fire so there is approximately 50% overlap between heavy support units. Space your troops with bolters in between your heavy units, with the same 50% overlap. place your assault units as evenly as they will allow, with a focus on placing them to counter-charge or support your more firepower oriented squads.
*
Army composition suggestions:*

*Vs. Black Templars*

1.) Shooty Army
- Terminators to counter attack. Make them as cheap as possible so you can take 2 squads
- Demon Prince with wings to add some punch to the assault
- A few Tzeentch units (I assume Thousand Sons - correction if I'm wrong pls) and put them in Rhinos for rapid deployment.

2.) Deepstrike and CC army
- 10 man Terminator squad with champion and 2 Reaper Autocanons.
- Join a Terminator Lord with Lightning Claws with the Terminators above and then deepstrike them behind the enemy.
- Use squads of Khorne Berzerkers with Rhinos as troop choice and assault the flank. Let them and the terminators work towards one another.
- Vindicators or Defilers to lob tempalte weapons at the marines in the center. Also to target the enemy vehicles
- Oblitarators deepstriking behind the enemy
- Personal icons or Marks to help with the Deepstriking.

3.) Thousand Sons
- 30 TS Units
- Deamon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, Doombolt and Warptime (reroll hits and wounds, 4+ invulnarable save)
- Obliterators

*Vs. Tyranids*

1.) CC Army
- Full 6 troop choice (60 units)
- Defiler
- Obliterators
- Deamon Prince /w Mark of Khorne and wings

*Terms:*

This sections is just for the people who do not know the terms yet. 

LOS - Line of Sight
CC - Close Combat
HtH - Hand to Hand
BT - Black Templars
CSM - Chaos Space Marine
LR - Land Raider
TS - Thousand Sons
WBB - We'll Be Back
*
Reference:*

Thanks to the following people for helpfull posts:
Ubiquitous, Bogg, Apoctis, uberschveinen, d'hargetezan, Janus Blackheart, Syko515, pyroanarchist, plug, ApostateSynphony, Revelations, Moschaboy, jackelkiller, neilbatte, Estragon, Changer of Ways, Chaos&Beer


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## Ubiquitous

Looking at the list you've written, I'd use some of the following basic tactics:

Against 'Nids: Deploy some 0-10" in, get good LOS on deployment, and start shooting them ASAP. The more bugs die before close combat the more you can chainsword in the eye before dying horribly. Against the big bugs, use your special weapons and big stuff to target one or two until they're dead. Then move on to the next one. 

Against BTs: When you shoot a squad, make sure to kill it. If they manage to live through the shooting, then they'll move forward because of their ability and then charge you. And they're better in close combat. 

Basically, if it's CC based, shoot it. If it's a sniper, assault it. If it's somewhere in between, hope you get better rolls :biggrin:


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## Bogg

If you see a big walking Black Templar unit, dont shoot it, let it slumber all the way up too you, stay away, focus on smaller targets,, make a Shooty army, with some termies to counter attack, make the termy squad as cheap as poss, so u can field two units, have a flying demon prince aswell,the pack a big punch.....as always you can muster up a few tzeentch unitsm they eat space marines for breakfast with their bolters, mount em in a rhino of rapid redeployment....

vs Nids....hmm, well I tend to focus on one side, and shoot the bog ones first, so that tehy get out of synapse, against a clever opponent that does not always work.... Good Luck....


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## Apoctis

It is easy to kill nids any template rapid fire and heavy weapons do the trick and against temps just battle them like marines and keep a safe distance back.


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## uberschveinen

If they are pedestrian Templars, focus your fire onto the big squads, because they are the real danger. Shoot at only one squad until it dies or they will be in your face very, veyr fast. Avoid combat, but if you can't, charge first to deny them the extra attack. Never EVER let the squad with the Chaplain charge you.

If they're mechanised, kill the transports, and focus fire on one squad inside at a time.


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## d'hargetezan

Along with what others have said, against Tyranids I have descovered that if you sit back and let them come to you you survive much better, let them think they will have you. Many a player underestimates the power of the standard Chaos Marine in CC. Three games in a row I have one against the Tyranids using a power fist in one Marine squad to handle those nasty Fexes. One squad even took out a Fex and a Tyrant in three turns, it was awsome.


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## koosbeer

Thnx for the replies so far but we need more. How about how you will play a Landraider with 5 termis in it? A rhino full of khorne zerks? Come on vets, help us noobs out 

Maybe if we get enough replies we can get a tactica going? Please drop some tips ad tactics on how to use the traitor legions as well. (Plague marines vs Black Tempalrs etc.)


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## Sword Slasher

i don't know a thing about this, but i'm helping with the post number!


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## koosbeer

Haha @ Slasher. Dont need high post counts, need some valuable tactics for the chaos forces. But thanks for caring!


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## koosbeer

Sorry for the double post. I just finished watching the battle of bluetablepainting's with chaos vs black templar and it would appear that chaos doesn't have much against BT when they get into cc. So I would love to hear what the vets would do when facing BT.


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## Janus Blackheart

You still have to use your squads how there meant to be used. If it is a close combat squad you need to charge it in sitting there, shooting bolt pistols with 280 points of zerkers will never give you there points worth. The key is coordination. A unit of chaos might not be quite the match for a unit of templars in CC (although depending ont he unit this is very arguable) but throw a dread or a character in the mix, make sure you get the charge and Bingo tide is now in your favor. 

Speed is so important in this game as it allows you to pick your battles. The main thing you want to do is watch your point matchups. If they have a large CC squad with a character. Through something like 6 plauge marines or a dread at it to tie it up for a couple turns at less than half the points cost. Use thousand sons to absorbe fire and whittle down there squads and then tie em up in HtH. Use Raptors to pick of week units or melta bomb vehicles. Better yet get them behind there lines for a little cross fire action.

Good Luck!


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## Syko515

honestly, being partial to a tzeentch theme. i say toss a squad of 10 terminators with only the icon of tzeentch . thats enough to mess up anything in CC. i took out a squad of 10 howling banshee's and a squad of 6 harliquins this way. as for the rest of the black templars and other MEQ's i say thousand sons's them to death.. str4 ap 3 shots should do the trick tremendously.


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## pyroanarchist

Plague marines to hold things up is an amazing tactic. I held up 20+ guants with 5 plague marines for 3 turns (granted I was rolling well). Back them up with Berzerkers. Plague marines won't kill a lot in cc, but will sit and absorb hits. Use Berzerkers to come in and assault into the same combat, with the furious charge they maim when charging. I love using Havocs in a Rhino. They can shoot out of the firing points if you don't move and only need a couple shots from that location and they can re-deploy very well. With Chaos there are so many combinations that will give you that extra added punch, you really just have to experiment.


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## plug

Yep, plague marines can tend to hold things up, especally if there in cover to start with. I also find noise marines can make a mess of a B.T army, especally if there all armed with sonic blasters and you have a blast master as well.


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## pyroanarchist

Noise Marines have the firepower to make a mess of anything. I love the Noise Marines, but its pretty expensive to actually buy the squad, and then bit order sonic blasters for all of them, and I really don't see much of a point to them if they don't all upgrade to SB's.

A Havoc squad armed with 4 missile launchers can do some damage to swarm armies. Let the missiles scatter, they should still hit something in a tyranid or ork army. Thousand sons are definately the best at shooting down marines. Rapid firing ap3 bolters are nasty. Plus you can move them backwards every turn and keep rapid firing so you may get a couple of extra shots off before they are assualted. A well placed Asp Sorc in the squad with Doombolt or Bolt of Change never hurts either.


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## foulacy

Well, sit back and shoot the shit out of them focusing one unit at a time like people say is your best bet.

I would charge my daemon prince with wings against a big unit (avoid the chaplains though) and shoot at the other one(s)


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## ApostateSynphony

Take a full 10 man Sqd of Terms make them all champs, give them the two reapers and have them lead by a Term Lord wiht Lightnig claws Deep stike them behind the marines and shoot them then assault. Also take Khorne Berzerkers ( Best Assault troops inthe game! Billions of attacks and furiuos charge! also arm the skull champ and the other 2 allowed with Plasma pistols) as you troops choice rhino them up and then have them hit one flank of the Marines and then begin to roll it up, if it all works the Berzerkers will meet the Terms in the middle. You should also have a vindicator or defiler to lob barrage templates at the marines and any vehicles they will inevitably bring along, also to these units can provide a bit of a distraction so the marines will go for them while leaving thier back yard untended so to speak. Oh and dont forget about the Obliterators, a deep strike capable unit wiht decent saves, power weapons AND the ability to choose either anti personel or anti tank weapons, all in the rear! Oh dont forget to make obscene use of the personal Icons if you are having lots of DS or summoned units dont want them getting lost now do we?

With Chaos its all or nothing BE AGRESSIVE AND IN YOUR OPPONENTS FACE! it makes for a fun battle!


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## Revelations

Something that I had to learn the hard way after a few crushing defeats, is that sometimes it's better to play against the mission, not the army itself. Chaos got severly hurt in the last codex, to the point where we suffer so many drawbacks, it's darn near climbing up a mountain with a boulder strapped to your back to win. I once lost a game against Blood Angels in a single turn... it's that bad sometimes. 

The thing with Chaos is that we are a little good at everything, but not as good as any one thing that every other army is. We have slightly mobile high toughness troops, we have shooty squads with high initiative, etc. The trick is to force enemies into roles they have little to no support with. 

Let's take a look at your list. You are trying to do everything at once, sometimes without paying for it. Cheap Nurgle knockoffs, cheap Slaneesh Knockoffs, No icon support for the raptors, no champion for the berserkers, etc. Was that your intention? Here are some suggestions...

1. Keep the possessed out. They are worthless for their high point costs, lack of any ranged attack and random abilities. 

2. Are your Bserkers with a PF Champion. They need to Umpfh and the capacity to destroy high toughness, heavy armor and vehicle units. 

3. Buy the real Cult troop. Icon of Nurgle is nice, but you still aren't Fearless or have FnP. Few units can content with the Firepower Noise Marines can put out (albieght at a high price)

4. Icon your Raptors. I suggest Khorne, now they have a few more attacks. Consider throwing on a Champion too. 

Depending on what mission you are playing, you should adjust your tactics to it, not to you opponent. Games are won through objectives, not through the destruction of your enemies models. 

1. Use your H2H troops to counter charge oncoming assault troops. 

2. Spread your vehicles out to contest key locations on your final two turns. 

3. Don't bother engaging units that have no strategic value; if it's not a scoring unit, ignore it. 

4. If your enemy is biult for H2H, stay ranged and shoot. There's no shame in walking backwards to get off one more round of shooting; it's a few more dead marines.


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## Absolute035

pyroanarchist said:


> Thousand sons are definately the best at shooting down marines. Rapid firing ap3 bolters are nasty. Plus you can move them backwards every turn and keep rapid firing so you may get a couple of extra shots off before they are assualted. A well placed Asp Sorc in the squad with Doombolt or Bolt of Change never hurts either.


That would not work as they are slow and purposeful, and anyway if you fire from within 12" then they can assault you next turn.

The only way this could work is if you roll high on slow and purposeful AND if you are trying to kite the marines back over difficult terrain.


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## pyroanarchist

Yeah, with slow and purposeful they can move and rapid fire. Sorry, I realize you would only get to rapid fire once. I guess I meant to say "Plus you can move them backwards every turn and keep firing so you may get a couple of extra shots off before they are assualted.". But, if you are say 8'' from the enemy and you move backwards trying to get out of assault range and don't make it, you can still rapid fire because they are slow and purposeful. I guess I didn't word that very well. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## Het Masteen

I think the trick with Chaos now is to go Undivided and combine Cult troops. So use Plague Marines as a screen and have Thousand Sons/Berserkers. And always take an Icon to support the role the unit is intended for. So, if you're going to assault with raptors, give them the Icon of Khorne (I've even seen Slaanesh used). Use defensive Icons for Havocs. Tzeenzch works well if there's minimal cover but it's costly.


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## pyroanarchist

Het Masteen said:


> I think the trick with Chaos now is to go Undivided and combine Cult troops. So use Plague Marines as a screen and have Thousand Sons/Berserkers. And always take an Icon to support the role the unit is intended for. So, if you're going to assault with raptors, give them the Icon of Khorne (I've even seen Slaanesh used). Use defensive Icons for Havocs. Tzeenzch works well if there's minimal cover but it's costly.


Sorry, but I HATE this style of a Chaos army. If led by Abbaddon himself I deal with it, but still it erks me in more ways than one. I do admit, it is very effective and can be very fun to play with, but you lose all Chaos storyline that way. I try to stick with the ancient enemy stuff. Khorne hates Slaanesh and Nurgle hates Tzeentch. I usually go as far as assuming Khorne doesn't like Tzeentch much either because he hates psychers. I have no problem with pairing Khorne with Nurgle, or Tzeentch with Slaanesh, but I try to stay away from mix and match Chaos. Like I said, I'm not saying its not legal rule-wise, and I'm not saying its not effective, it just feels so wrong to me. I would assume the Berzerkers would slay the Noisemarines without a second thought before advancing on the enemy. But, thats just to keep the storyline alive and to make the game seem more fluffy in my eyes. Anyway, just my 2 cents.


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## teplicuss

shoot them... then crush them..then take thier wemon


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## Cadeous

I used to play Iron Warriors, but the new codex tossed them out the window. I'm still not sure what I want to do with Chaos now. Bye-bye Bassie.


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## Moschaboy

i still play iron warriors and if you want to stick to the theme try this: 2 cybots with rocket launcher flamer and dccw teamed up, 3 vindicators, a daemon prince, termies and some rhino csm...quite effective if you ask me and very iron warriorish...

but on topic
you most likely will outgun them and they will be forced to come to you, so work with that, keep some handy counter assault units ready, like berserkers and hide them behind your gun line of csm. use the big guns to cover the incoming troops with fire but also hide them behind the csm shall they get close. when he comes near spread out you csm, so that when he attacks he'll only kill a few, and let him hit your line. then you pile in and in your turn you counter chrge em to deah with your caunter assault units (again khorne berserkers are optimum, cause this way tey get the charge without a need for a transport


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## teplicuss

yup, i agree with pyro. one thing i see alot of latley is unfluffyness in many armies. is see lots of power gamers who consider themselves good tactitions, yet use a over powerd and un fluffy army to do so. Befor selling my sou; to nurgal i was a die hard blood angels fan, but i played them half shooty and half cc, it worked, but it didnt seem right.


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## godofwar

Totally agree with pyro! Could never have one of my armies tainted with Slaanesh scum or the Tzeentch Warlocks and would only use Plague Marine at a push! But i do find the fluff from the Horus series interesting and all my CSMs are in the Worldeater mold.


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## jackelkiller

For BT Battle:
You need to run a thousand suns with ap3 bolter about 30 of them.

and a daemon prince with mark of tzee, doombolt warptime to reroll hits and wound, and gives him a 4 invo.

i love obliterator with term armour and all their weapons including powerfists

For nids battle

fill all 6 troop choices with 60 troops, them defiler and oblits
with daemon prince mark of khorne and wings


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## neilbatte

against nids always try to be in cover when assualted and don't be afraid to assualt into cover you'll survive much longer as you get to fight simultaneously instead of after the bugs
against templars try to disrupt the enmasse advance by shooting 1 or 2 units at a time causing them to become spaced out so that you can swamp 1 unit at a time and also use their forward move to bring squads into your lines of fire


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## Syko515

ok first thing, i am noticing that a few are actually providing answers to this query, and others meerly are posting for the sake of posting. IMPO this is worng, if you don't have aid to offer don't speak up. again IMPO there is nothing worse then " oh i don't have an answer or the ability to say how to function it if i did but boy the fluff was cool huh?". i'm not a power gamer, nore am i so wrapped in the fluff of this glorious army that i will restrict myself from using the best of the best when needed.

on that note i have a few indepth answers to your Templars and other Marines. Large formations of marines should take fire from well placed defilers. the battle cannon will not only blow apart their armor but is Str 8 Ap 3. as i recall no marine likes being naked when the sky is raining flames. for an added punch use a squad of entrenched Oblit's. blast away at the marines with plasma cannons and even their terminators will run lifting their skirts as they go. if you couple this with the medium range fire power of either Thousand sons or the Noise Marines not much should be left to CC you.its a matter of target Priority.

Tyranids. most of what i use for MEQ's is exactly what i use for Hordes. with the nids however, its a matter, again, of Target priority. first turn i fire lascannons into winged hive tyrants, Zoanthropes, and tyrant with gaurd. my battle cannon blasts aim for the infamously "pain in the rear" Genestealers. now bear in mind that even though genestealers eat marines for break fast, we're smarter and better then them in CC. if you use rhinos to narrow their LOS and bottle neck them to be able to get to you the only option for the tyranid player's bulk of his force is to go where you want him, use that to your advatage. a moving wall of rhino's and landraiders should corral them and keep them contained easily till you can deal with them forth right.

IMPERIAL GAURD. depending on how the player play's this may be helpful. our imperial gaurd player plays static gaurd, tons of heavy weapons and big nasty tanks. fast troops with melta capability will deal with the tanks handsomely. flamers will take out their entrenched troops.

TAU. not much i can truely say here until 5th edition nerfs their skimmers, our tau player plays a rediculous amount of skimmers. the troops are easy, if you can CC him you wil win. i've seen a squad of 2 berzerkers{ cause thats what was left of what made it to him} kill 2 whole squads of 6 fire warriors in less then 3 turns. the main focus should be their big guns, Ion heads, rail guns, and braodside squads should take target priority. take those down and you shouldn't have a problem with the rest.

NECRONS. well Necron block is a [email protected]#h to beat but its not impossible. first turn hit the monoliths with as much ordinance and lascannon fire as you can. if you manage to cripple the monoliths and either destroy them or imoblize them you should be fine. this will limit their ability to move. if they move they leave the safty of their WBB rediculousness. if they stay put you can out manuever them simply and blast them from a distance, remember you can't get rid of its power matrix meaning that its partical whip still hurts, stay farther then 18" away.

ELDAR. learn their models and what each squad is capable of. harliquins, CC them with tzeentch terminators. Howling Banshee's, shoot them with bolter fire even that will drop them fast.striking scorpions, assault them with more berzerkers then they have scorpions, or shoot them. gaurdians are a simple matter, if there's an avatar lascannon him to death then assault the gaurdians, if theres no avatar assault the gaurdiands they pop like guardsmen. Pathfinders, Lash them out of cover with a slaaneshi sorcerer and then crush them in CC, they can't stand up to CC.

I hope to have aided the topic as it seem to have been digressed a tad. and i am also guilty of such digressing in this very post. my apologies to all for said digression, and i hope any insight i have shown is helpful to those who have not already employed said tactic's.


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## Purge

Charge forward and scream your rage to the Blood God.

It's the way real men fight.


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## Ludoldus

As a templar player, i have only 1 piece of advice that hasn't been said: Watch out for the emperor's champion! This guy is a beast in CC, and can easily take out tooled up champions etc (4 str 6 power weapon attacks on the charge) and is tough as nails thanks to 2+ 4++. Other than that all i can really say is what people have said already: Aim for the big units and wipe em out 1 at a time, otherwise they just get closer and closer to CC with you, and if they make it you are dead. Also, make sure to charge the squad with a chaplain in it, as this will stop them getting re-rolls to hit and so make them far less deadly.


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## Estragon

Defilers are great to run up against infantry-although watch out for meltabombs and powerfists. They also make great countercharge units. Four turns of shoot-anything-and-everthing followed by two CC. And unless the Emperors Champion is VERY lucky, he's going to get squashed.....or at least he won't kill your commander! Deepstriking Obliterators behind enemy lines, whilst risky, can pay off well, especially against a slow army. Who'd want to face three Plasma Cannon rounds every turn.
And both combined with the ever-popular Lash of Submission....Well. That's a lot of zealous SM nuggets to pick up!


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## Attila

BT are really excellent in CC so i would say get lots of mobile shooting squads to rip them up.


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## Changer of Ways

Chaos Space Marines are the best army to play, hands down.
Other armies can make good lists, but only Chaos has the versatility to field multiple types of lists with various strategies that are tactically sound.

My own crack at Chaos in the current edition is control; e.g. Lash of Submission lists. The power of the Lash is a strong pull for me.
I guess that you could say I have fallen for Chaos much like the marines that comprise it.

Balance is important, so I field a solid core of infantry that can handle multiple situations: ranged combat, assault, staying power & speed.
Then I back the core up with dedicated units; e.g. vehicle-hunting squads, powerful close combat specialists and the like.
If points allow, I always like to throw in a really fast squad or two that can zip to where they are needed and take out support elements like basilisks, broadside battlesuits, heavy weapons teams and the like.

All of my best army lists are also 100% mobile not only for strategic purposes, but also in the event that the army is used in missions where mobility is key.


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## Son of mortarion

The first part of any battle for my death guard is to look over the battlefield and create a fire plan, dividing my force into three equal sized forces, with a focus on mutually supporting squads. I do this so I will not be strong against one opponent at the cost of being strong against others. As for assault specialists, set up heavy support so there is as little of the battlefield they cannot reach. In addition, overlap the fields of fire so there is approximately 50% overlap between heavy support units. Space your troops with bolters in between your heavy units, with the same 50% overlap. place your assault units as evenly as they will allow, with a focus on placing them to counter-charge or support your more firepower oriented squads. Count the seven.


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## Chaos&Beer

My Chaos Army frequently finds itself facing my buddy's genestealer based nid army, I find that bringing in Abbadon attatched to a squad of termies with mark of tzee w/ pairs of L. Claws can usually rip peoples faces off pretty well. 

I use my 2 defilers to lay down a crap-ton of large blasts in support, and use deep striked shooty units to deal w/ biovores. Thousand Sons can also be useful, AP3 bolters FTW. Just make sure you keep them out of assault range. If they do get assaulted their 4+ inv can hold off against the rending attacks for a while, but you are going to have get something else into the melee or they are going to be tied up until they are eventually rended to death.

Infiltrating chosen with plasma guns or meltas also works great for getting that carnifex first turn. 

Hope I could be of help.


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## Triumph Of Man

pyroanarchist said:


> Sorry, but I HATE this style of a Chaos army. If led by Abbaddon himself I deal with it, but still it erks me in more ways than one. I do admit, it is very effective and can be very fun to play with, but you lose all Chaos storyline that way. I try to stick with the ancient enemy stuff. Khorne hates Slaanesh and Nurgle hates Tzeentch. I usually go as far as assuming Khorne doesn't like Tzeentch much either because he hates psychers. I have no problem with pairing Khorne with Nurgle, or Tzeentch with Slaanesh, but I try to stay away from mix and match Chaos. Like I said, I'm not saying its not legal rule-wise, and I'm not saying its not effective, it just feels so wrong to me. I would assume the Berzerkers would slay the Noisemarines without a second thought before advancing on the enemy. But, thats just to keep the storyline alive and to make the game seem more fluffy in my eyes. Anyway, just my 2 cents.


Uh, hello? Abaddon can't be present leading every single Black Legion force at once.

But nonetheless, his men remain Black Legion and follow his orders (for the most part). Who's going to argue with the biggest, baddest, bad ass short of a Primarch? 

Not sub commander Chaos Lord Barry, that's for sure. If Abaddon says keep those Nurgle/Tzeentch boys off each other he's gonna make it damn well happen or risk losing his head. Even if it means using some muscle to persuade the grunts, he's going to make sure they don't start screwing the grand plan up. Even if Barry happens to prefer the Nurgle marines, he's not going to cross Abaddon lightly.

Honestly, if you think Abaddon should be present in every 1500pt skirmish then I have to say, IMO you're the one that's playing unfluffily.

_AHA! Now see this waterplant thingumy way out over there? I'm gonna take my favourite buddies and we're gonna make that waterplant a CHAOS waterplant!"

"But sir, what about the assault on the Hive? The giant battle of apocalyptic proportions, aren't you going to lead that? Why do we even need this waterplant? We don't even need to drink-"

"CHAOS waterplant!"

"But-"

"Shutup, fool!"_

If you really want something to rant on, you'd be better off targeting the sudden upsurge of these "special" characters. They're so special, they somehow manage to simultaneously appear in every single army up from Combat Patrol....

_"...and thus Eldrad and Yriel together saved the dying Eldar race, repopulating it by simultaneously appearing on every single battlefied in the universe..."_


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## Son of mortarion

I agree, if your force is lead by a special character every time, fom the lowlyiest skirmish to the continent-spanning mega-battles, how are they, 1) 'fluffy" or, more importantly, 2) SPECIAL?


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## Absolute035

A nice compromise for special characters is to utilize the "counts as" and re-name him after your own fluffy character.


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## koosbeer

Thanks for all the replies so far. Ill try to reformat the whole bunch and then update the first post with some helpful info. This already helped a lot and it would be awesome if you can keep it coming. Focus on other armies would be cool as well as well as tips on deployment and formations...

Awesome so far! Keep it coming!
Peace!

EDIT: I have created a summary and updated the first post with the stuff. Keep the info coming and please give comments on stuff we can change. This is OUR Chaos tactica and we all write it


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## lord of all nurgle

i just new this first post i agree with mst of the stuff


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## lord of all nurgle

i recoomend puttin termys and lord in land raider and send them up the flanks mostly wrks against tiranids and orks not good for sm & dh


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## Honking_Elephant

For the land raider, especialy against nids, send the bugger right down the middle of the battlefield, its gets shot to hell, but the chances are the terminators will survive even if the vehicle get blown to hell, if it gets to the enemy, then unleash the termys and use the landraider to A) go character hunting with the lascannons B) let the land raider keep going! just drive it through the enemys soldiers, not too good an idea against the templars, but if its any army with low Ld grunts that can't do anything, so they'd be stupid to death or glory it, and may have too fall back slowing down their advance.

Also using a dreadnought daemon prince combo will be lethal agianst most basic foot sloggers


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## LordWaffles

As for a real tactic, never use our dreadnaughts.

As for my tactic, get the spess mehrein codex as soon as it comes out and play them. Unless you're cult heavy or absolutely need your deamon prince/defiler/obliterator.


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## koosbeer

Add on to the first post:
*Traitor legions*

Iron warriors
By far and away the best siege specialists (lots of big guns) in the 40k universe (in the old codex you used to be able to field 4 heavy support including a basilisk) no however no official rules for using them, just to be used as a stock Chaos army. If your going to go with these guys make your squads as small as possible whilst adding heavy weapons, max out all the heavy support slots, and give your commander's and troops bionics, if you can get your hands on them the iron hands box, and the iron warriors boxed sets are good for these models. Weak against fast moving CC, and armies that will out gun them all the way such as TAU

Word Bearers
A daemon based army, again in the old codex, could field more daemons in a force then any other army, however once again with the new codex no official rules just as stock standard as the rest, for flavor purposes only include as many daemons as you can. maybe 2 daemon princes, a greater daemon, possessed, and the lesser daemons, pay special attention to your commanders try giving them religious styling, the Mace of Vaull is a good weapon for Word Bearers commanders. Good all round troops. High initiative and high leaderships armies tend to give some trouble.

+ Demagogues strengthen morale, daemon support
- Army set-up influenced by visions and rituals

Night lords
Stealth and speed is the key with these guys, Infantry squads mounted in Rhinos, Deep striking Terminators, Raptors and a simply awesome Conrad Curze model are good suggestions for this army. They used to have some vet abilities which allowed them to infiltrate, but once again the new codex nurfed them, in this department. Double edged sword good against static armies, but if you cant get across the field fast enough to support your infiltrators and your deep strikers BIG TROUBLE.

+ Fast attack, terror tactics, night fight
- Little heavy/daemonic support

Alpha Legion
Under the new rules there flavor (which wasn't that strong to start) is definitely gone, basically a quick reaction force, hit and run style thats the best I can suggest for them. Bikes, rhinos, maybe not so many demon units also because they operate outside the warp more so than any other legion. good all rounder like a standard chaos force.

+ Mass infiltration, cultist support
- Little heavy/daemonic support

World Eaters
Heavy close combat, massive potential for absolute destruction in close combat. A lord with a potential 19 power weapon attacks on the charge! WOW! Lots of rhinos to get in close. Giving the Icon or Khorne to units makes them hit a lot harder, i personally use a bike squad, and a 10 man terminator squad with Icon of Khorne. Berserker's are some hard hitting assault troops, and with the new run rule, are going to be fast as well. A khornate army has very few weaknesses nowadays. Lots of big guns ( eg: imp guard, tau) can do serious damage to you before you arrive at their lines, but once you get to them they are in big trouble even if it is only a few squads.

Emperors Children
High initiative troops. relatively good in assault because of striking first. Have some very interesting and unique guns. Aesthetically pleasing army and great special character (Lucius). 

Death Guard
Some of the toughest troop choices in the game. Rhinos work well, Nurgle bikers are awesome, look crazy, fast armies, such as Tyranids will present problems, bog down you good assault units and hit your basic units with big scary bugs. Overall a very hard army, can take some serious punishment.

Thousand Sons
Marines with AP3 bolters? Terminators with 4+ invulnerable saves? Marines with 5+ inv? Here is GW's new pet army. These guys are awesome in battle. Two squads with rhinos, 2 foot slogging squads, a few close combat troops and maybe a squad of havocs with lascannons, your set, those ap3 bolters are devastating and the terminator squad? Well i have personally marched a 10 man terminator squad across the field for three turns in the open, against a suit heavy TAU army and they still got there with 6 members (granted the dice were lucky but hey they still got there) 

+ AP3 Bolters, 4+ Invul termis, 5+ Invul marines
- Very few< only very large armies, like 130+ guardsmen or gaunts pose a real threat to these guys, and marines or Necrons or Taue, get blown the heck apart.

*Credits*
Fluff'Ead, cool_conoly


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## Dies Irae

When i fight against my cousin's Raven Guard army, my Iron Warriors stay in the starting blocks and shoot them with heavy weapons, my choosens (+lord with lightning claws) in their LR move to the nearest Space Marine Squad, my Deamon Prince(winged) attack the right side of the army, whereas my Raptors strike on the left side. On the 3rd turn, my choosens disembark and say "Wooohooooooo!!!!! We cost more than 300 points!!! Attack us with your assault squads!!!" My cousin does. The DP and the Raptors attack their flanks. The poor assault marines (and Kayvaan Shrike ^^) are instantaly killed. My Terminators and Obliterators deepstrike near the ennemy heavy weapons (Wirlwind, Devastators) and attack them in CC. On the last 2 turns, my CSM squads move and capture objectives. 

I think it is a good strategy, and i will add Khorne Berserkers to my army for more CC punch.

EDIT: didn't see koosbeer's post, the Iron Warriors can deal with Taus, jut deepstrike Termies and Obliterators and attack them in CC

A khorne lord with 19 attacks???? I end with 18! 3 + 1 (mark of K) + 2D6 (max 12, demon weapon) + 1 (juggernaut) + 1 for charge = 18 attack in charge...why 19?


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## Son of mortarion

(Death Guard infantry)

Take 6 squads of 7 or 14 plague marines


Deploy into cover, with 2-3 squads of 7 or 14 marines in positions to mutually support each other. ( plasma gun squads working along with melta gun squads0
Move the squads from cover to cover until in range for rapid fire. When in range for rapid fire, hold onto the current position until the squads are dead, or the opponent is. When all opponents in range are eliminated, move towards next opponent squad/s utilizing cover until another firing line within range can be established.

(Death Guard armor)

The death guard do not use many armored vehicles, but a few match their uncompromising fighting doctrines well. Vindicators work very well to supplement the infantry. 2-3 are recommended, take 2 if you divide your infantry into 2 sections of three squads, take 3 if you divide into 3 groups of two squads.

Use the vindies to either spearhead assaults when moving to and from objectives, or to provide fire support while moving from cover to cover.
The vindicators also work well in an anti-tank role, the high strength of the demolisher cannon nearly guaranteeing any hits destroying enemy armor.

(Death Guard elites)

Dreads are another method of supporting a death guard advance, taking an autocannon or plasma cannon grants not only range to the forces firepower, but also gives more punch, and can be invaluable against squadrons of light vehicles. the dreads can also move like the other marines, and provide cover with their smoke launchers.


(Death Guard fast attack)

don't need them, don't want them.

I hope this is a helpful contribution.


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## chaos vince

tearing up cc armies with chaos is all about isolating the enamy units, if you're playin khonre the key is to pull enamy units away from support then hitting 'em hard. shooty chaos vs. horde armies is pretty simple. look at the enamy, pick the most dangerous unit shoot it till it dies then repeat


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## Chevalier

The first thing you should do when you sit down to build an army is devote some time to thoroughly read the codex and determine the quality of the models it makes available and the roles they fill. Here's a quick run down of the Codex's top models for each force organization slot:

HQ:
Daemon Prince
The DP has the highest WS you'll find on a model less impressive than an Eldar Avatar or a Greater Daemon. It also has high BS, S, and W characteristics and a mediocre T. For the points neither of the other two HQ options can compare. Always buy wings for a DP and there's almost no reason not to shell out the points to give it MoS and Lash every time although MoN DPs with Warptime are pretty fearsome as well.

Elites:
Chaos Terminators
Pound for pound the cheapest deep striking, 2+ AS, power weapon, attacks you can find and, for a trifle, they can all have combi-weapons. Ld 10 with the option to buy a re-roll doesn't hurt either. Don't spend too many points on these models though, their attractive quality is how cheap they are.

Chosen do have a place in a summoning / deepstriking army but I haven't had much success with this tactic personally so I can't in good conscience recommend it.

Troops:
Plague Marines
The only models that can really contest PMs for the "most durable Troops choice in 40k" award are: Eldar Wraithguard, which have to be taken in squads of ten to count as Troops and do not FNP, and DoC Plaguebearers, who have a 5+ inv save instead of a 3+ armour and whose FNP save can only be negated by S 10 hits as opposed to the S 8+ you need for a PM. Additionally, you don't need to take ten of them to buy two special weapons, which is a fine thing indeed.

Noise Marines
Pure offense in the form of either a Doom Siren template followed by assault or a long line of pink that throws up a wall of bolter fire twenty four inches in front of them thick enough to whittle down to ineffectiveness very nearly any infantry crazy enough to footslog toward them. The downside here being that you're paying for one and two-thirds marines and not getting any increased survivability out of the deal and they have zero anti-armour options.

Fast Attack:
Mostly trash here. Raptors are okay but small squads get torn to shreds by concentrated fire and large squads... well I suppose it doesn't really matter how big the squad is, the problem is the same. For what they do, it's hard for me to justify spending the points.

Heavy Support:
Obliterators are amazing. These models are walking armories with the right tool for the job no matter what task you set them to. More often than not this will be tank killing since there isn't much else in the army that can manage that at a range greater than six inches.

A quick note about Vindicators: These perfect candidates for Daemonic Possession are by no means a bad choice however, since you won't have anything else in the army to distract your enemy's anti-tank fire power, except maybe DPs, Vindicators won't have much of an opportunity to make their points back. In the SM codex you can load the army with lascannon Razorbacks and/or Land Speeders that might convince your opponent to leave your Vindicator alone long enough for it to do something. Unfortunately, the Chaos Codex has no such equivalents.


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## HeraldofKhorne

All these other tips are fantastic, but here is my take on it: Havocs, Plain-ol'-CSM, and the ever so sexy berserkers. Havocs with missle launchers have frag and krak missles, use them to thin out squads from afar and pop some tanks and transports. use CSM as mid range support while berserkers clean up as the enemy draws close. this has worked wonderfully against mob armies like Da Orks and the Nids. if your fighting a shooty army like IG and Tau, bring the close combat to them. charge the shit out of them, again using your havocs to thin them out as the saints go marching in (berserkers...sorry, I couldn't resist). The havocs can also take care of anything that moves to fast for your berserkers to catch (as in some tau and Ork stuff). So, basic run down: Havocs, CSM, and berserkers. (note: I like to give my havocs tzeentch marks, and the CSM nurgle marks). Best of Luck fellow traitor!


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## Lord Lucius

heres my fave tactic(think I might have it somware else but the more places it is the more people can benefit from it).

llord lucius & a 9 man squad of noise marines with personal icon & noise champ with doom siren & p wepon in a rhino with daemonic posesion & all terrain upgrade(cany remember its name) ,suported by 2 or 3 obblitorators

now this is basicaly my take on rhino rush.this works well against nids, and works best in CoD or a board with a road.move the rhino as far up to the enemy as possible(but make sure the enemy isnt so close u cant diss immbarc!)then dissimbarc. fire 2! doom sirens into the unit & 18 bolter rounds.next turn the enemy will probably go into c&c & u WILL slaughter them! if ur lucker you will also have deep striced ur oblitorators right next to the noise marines and lend their fire!:laugh::laugh:
this is useful when storming the objective
also good against smurfs and ather sm s


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## MJayC50

I think ive said it before somewhere - but i think you need to look at why noise marines are so pricey! say we have a squad of ten noise marines. 7 sonic blaster 2 bolters 1 champ with fist and doom siren in a rhino with combi plas(this is the mainstay of my army and here's why). so we get out of rhino - we can shoot! so thats 1 ap3 flamer 14 sonic shots and 2 pistols. 2 plasma gun shot and 2 bolter shots from rhino. then we charge whats left with 27 attacks from the normal guys at I5! so thats a staggering 45 attacks before meq's get to strike back - say 4 for the flamer and 2 plasma shots so thats over 50! then we also have the power fist after whats left has a go...hehehe - thats quite devastating but it costs over 300 pts. 

i dont mind paying for it coz noise marines are THE most flexible unit in the csm codex. we can sit in cover guarding objectives with our heavy3 sonic shots and fearlessness making us very hard to shift. or go and get objectives as explained earlier. rhinos are so much better in 5th! plus who wants to shoot a rhino when there are 2 defilers and a dp with lash roaming around! noise marines - i love em


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## kidder

Full out Frontal Assaults with internal Revolts causing death and disorter and massive Orbital Strikes From all possible sides. ALL MUST DIE NON SHALL LIVE!!!


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## Aldaris

Chevalier said:


> Fast Attack:
> Mostly trash here. Raptors are okay but small squads get torn to shreds by concentrated fire and large squads... well I suppose it doesn't really matter how big the squad is, the problem is the same. For what they do, it's hard for me to justify spending the points.


I agree this section hasn't much going for it, but I quite like raptors. They have the option to take two meltaguns, and the champ can have a PF. this makes them pretty good at tank hunting and none too shabby in combat. In fact, I have recently tried out a list that doesn't use havocs for AT, up to then an absolute standard unit in my setup. Problem with AT havocs is they are static, or should remain so if they are to use their full potential. Since the rest of my army is highly mobile, either through DS, Rhinos, LR, jump packs or wings, havocs sort of did not fit in. Now I use a standard CSM squad with two meltas, the raptors I mentioned above, the LR after delivering berzerkers plus DS obliterators and maybe the DP for tank huntung. It works very fine in the two games I had so far, the list is flexible, fast and a ton of fun to play. It may not be the most competitive one out there, but I like it a lot.


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## Codemonkey3x3

I'm a new CSM player and I would like Tau stomping tactics I'm sick of my friend constantly beating me, and if you get the chance click my daemon.


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## Codemonkey3x3

Also In my experience during apocalypse games Taking at least one defiler is a must, whenever I field one it can kill from five to seven times it's points just dropping pie plates from it's Battle cannon on the enemy, works extremely well against swarmies, and is all around an amazing unit in the game.


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## Mindlessness

Most people underestermate Possessed, these along with plague marines are gifts from the gods. Lucky rolls with the deamonkin rule is the most important part, I have not once rolled under a 4. Feel no pain or power weapons are the bane of pretty much anything. Also a Chaos Lord deamon weapon and mark of Slaanesh is beast, A possible 11 instant kill attacks. My Lord has gone toe to toe with much more expensive HQ choices and come out on top. And Noise Boys, there expensive because of there versitility, they can do pretty much any battlefield roll avalible with the proper gear.

But yes, for a BT army, I allways have a unit or two for a counter charge, namely the formentioned Chaos Lord and his retnine(or however you spell it :S) of 10 possessed. A pricey choice but with eaither Rending/Feel No Pain/Power Weapons they are bound to cause some much diserved chaos. Usually when counter-chargeing though, avoid the damm chacters  They make a mess of basicly anything. Also a Prince or Sorcerer with Lash is a pain to BT's, move them into a nice circle, perfect for pie plate dropping by Defilers and VIndi's

As for nids', Noise Boys and Pie plates work a charm. Deffinetly need something to compleatly erradicate the synapse though, I like to have 1-2 squads of 5-8 Havocs mounted in a Rhino with a multitude of Heavy Bolters and Autocannons. Nids drop insanely quick with two squads of 8 noise boys and 2 squads of havocs.

My 2c worth. Hope it comes in handy.


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## daemonprinceofchaos

heres my list of army types and good legion fluff:
infaltrating / mass chosen; apha legion.
mass speed mechagnized and raptors; night lords.
template weapons/ defilers and vindi ; iron warriors
footsloging; death guard
infantry shooty; thousand sond. 
assault; world eaters
last turn contesting: emperors childeren
mass daemon use; word bears
good at a little of everything; black legion


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## XxDreMisterxX

Try not to overlook raptors too much for they are pretty valuable once you take a closer look. they are a cheap anti tank choice with a champ with PF and 2 melta guns. they can also be used for bringing in a very nasty surprise say a "Greater Daemon" or Daemons? right in the enemies back door when they have a icon with them. (preferably a icon of khorne or icon of chaos glory to keep them cheap) they can also be used to assault heavy weapon teams to tie them up in combat and the more those heavy weapons are in combat and not shooting they free up your Dp's and other big important units from being torn up by Heavy weapon fire and i would say that alone is worth its points. I'm surprised no one has brought up the termie death teams? 3 man termie squads that deep strike with combi melta's for AT power and with power swords to tear up regular squads of MEQ or other units. Also Kharn and a Khorne Chaos Lord with a daemon weapon in two different zerker squads will tear players a new one.  Also some killer termie squads are 5 man termie khorne squads all champs with lots of attacks or 5 man slannesh squads with a pair of lightning claws which can decimate other space marine terminators. ( note: Khorne Termies < Slannesh Termies in CC through extensive play testing)

this is what i can currently think up at the moment. more to come.


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## mcmuffin

i am surprised no one has suggested Dual Lash, 3 oblits and 2 defilers. that is how i take out BT. Lash the huge footslogging squads of templars into a bunch, try to put them as close to the other squad as possible and drop pie plates and plasma cannons on them, they will die INCREDIBLY fast then. after that, send in some combi plasma termies. then send kharn and 9 berzerkers in in the land raider you bought for the termies to finish off the stragglers.


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## LordWaffles

I'd have an aneurysm correcting all the terrible advice in here. In short though:

I'd play using a different armies book while using chaos models. Chaos 4th edition sucks dick.


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## Dies Irae

Something nasty against Eldar Pathfinders you didn't say: drop an Obliterator nearby and it's BBQ time! They burn very well, and then your Oblit can target the rear of his Prisms/Falcons.

And just a general advice with Vanilla CSM in CC: you have 2 CC weapons, never forget it


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## ROT

I Have a tendancy to;

Scream *"Blood for the Blood God"*, and just charge everything with everything.

Works pretty well. :3


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## Ghost792

The key to victory against templars is to concentrate firepower on one squad until its completely destroyed. If you don't do this the surviving unit will then Zeal towards the nearest of your units, possibly giving them an 18" assault range. But remember that this only works if the unit takes casualties due to shooting. If you don't shoot them they have to slog up the board, so concentrate on one unit at a time. The Emperor's Champion is a real threat, especially due to the vows that he allows the army to take, but do not make the mistake that killing him removes the effects of whatever vow they have taken. If the templar player is any good, then it will be the vow that gives them all Preferred Enemy. The Chaplain is also one to watch as he allows the unit he is in to Zeal towards whatever unit it wants instead of the nearest unit. Crusader Seals only need to be taken by one member of the squad and will allow the squad to re-roll the Zeal move distance. 

It's also best to plan the destruction of each unit. At the very least, try to have them down to under half strength within a turn and never let them get the charge. I have been on the receiving end of a charging Crusader Squad above half strength enough times to know that they will more than likely destroy you within two turns, depending on how well either player is rolling. 

In my experience Obliterators, Vindicators, Defilers, Thousand Sons with Wind of Chaos and Noise Marines with either Sonic Blasters or a Doom Siren all work well in destroying Crusader Squads. There are other units that I haven't yet tried, but I'm certain Plague Marines could work as a tarpit. 

Watch out for any Assault Terminators as well, since Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge and a mix of Paired LCs and TH/SS in one unit makes them very dangerous.


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## DrinCalhar

Here is what I have learned, as a collector of both CSM and Nids.

You want Oblits. You will need those S8+ as well as template against a lot of the armies out there. A backup would be a Havoc squad with 4 ML but Oblits still work best. You will want to sit back and wait for them to come to you no matter what. In Dawn of War spread out as close as you can to their table edge if you get to deploy first, force them to deploy at the back of the table, then fall back. Walk your Oblits in and just start firing. Oblits are great as the nids get closer. Las then to TL melta on those T6 as they walk up to you. On those swarms Plasma cannon to TL flamer as they come closer. Don't walk your Oblits in from the corner. Leave them about 12" from either side. This way you may stall one more turn walking them toward a corner before they get engaged. Hunt out all those big nids first, they are the ones that will kill you fast. However, be on the watch for some of those multiple wound T4 nids. Las or melta them and you will be happy. Be careful of swarms that are charging they will tie up things really well letting their bigger nids get close while you try and kill 20 gants. If you have troops or something amazing against gants then engage them and keep those gants away from your HQ and Oblits. Tie up their tie up units. If you have Lash then just smile. Just keep pushing back whatever is the most dangerous within range. Also, if you can, find the closest threats to you. It is great when you kill them as they come to you and then the next closest is like a turn away and then you kill that and then the next closest is still a turn away. You can always try to break synapse, however, usually a good nid player sees this coming a mile away and counters it.
Reserve Nids are really hard. There are some great ways for them to tunnel in and be in your face right way. For this reason you want to be keep your Oblits spread out but the rest of your army close so that everyone can support everyone when some big fat nids tunnels in right next to your army. Now, be very careful if you are facing doom/zoan. Being really close in this instance will just let doom land a lot of hits on you when he comes in. If he does don't be afraid. You are going to take some hits bit never assault a doom. This is where your Oblits are going to shine. S8+ that Doom and you are fine. One wound and he is toast. If you are going to use Lash then keep away from synapse. If you have to run from a synapse then do so. Then just Lash them farther away from you so you can Lash them again next turn. Never be afraid to retreat vs nids you will probably win because of it.


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## LordWaffles

Ghost792 said:


> Zeal towards the nearest of your units, possibly giving them an 18" assault range. But remember that this only works if the unit takes casualties due to shooting.


Short of 2000pts you don't have enough firepower to kill a good footslogger list, your best bet is to lash them away. Without lash, you'd be killing(Without ignoring the land raiders and speeders) probably six marines a turn? Eight?
Let's say you hit them with sixteen ap2 shots, they get cover(infantry) so eight neophytes died, a loss of 80 points. So with a chaplain attached they get ro surge forward 1d6(rerollable)+3, so that makes on average 7-8" a shooting phase.
So on a legit board they have the potential to move 6, run 6, rage 9, move six, assault six.
33" max threat range on turn two
More fairly, they've got 28" threat range turn two.
So you have an army where the basic troop choice can scurry across the board in two turns, and assault the third.

Most non-shit templars will bring one footslogger and av14 with support fire, it gives them enough targets to rough you up, while giving you the appetizing target of those unarmored t4s in the middle of the board.

A single charge by a full squad of crusaders, with attached ic is thus(Against marines):
5 LC> 4 hits> 3 dead
57 attks> 38 hits> 19 wounds> 6.3 dead(wound allocation!)
Powerfist kills the last one.



Ghost792 said:


> In my experience Obliterators, Vindicators, Defilers, Thousand Sons with Wind of Chaos and Noise Marines with either Sonic Blasters or a Doom Siren all work well in destroying Crusader Squads. There are other units that I haven't yet tried, but I'm certain Plague Marines could work as a tarpit.


Plague marines get fuckstomped by the emperors champ, he kills half a squad per turn(3 ws 6 reroll, s6 pw swings) noise marines just make them angry, and tsons are a joke(ablative scoot wounds) the best strategy is lash lash lash. While blowing up the more important targets(IE:Land raiders)


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan

The thing I have trouble with is your reference to T'au. I have seen 3 crisis suits with plasma rifles tear through my brothers orks in a 6" diameter so hid a defiler behind some terrain or hill out of the way of railguns or stick it in reserve. DS some chaos termies with a matk then summon lesser deamons to charge there units to stop them firing then move your units into CC. Use a defiler to target there crisis's after the railguns are gone. I blew p his commander, both his bodygaurd & 3 sheild drones in 1 blast


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## Lillavarg

I am a new Chaos player and I will be playing vs Dark Eldars and Blood Angels. Does anyone have any nice army setups for it, mabye some tips and tricks!


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## Warsmith Drewgie

I fought Black Templars once with my CSM it was a 3000 point battle and I was the victor. I used the "cheesy, unfluffy" tactic of taking one of each of the cultist units. My berzerkers got wiped out at range early on, and my defiler got taken out 1st turn. I had icons on every unit, even personal icons on the cult troops. I brought 2 units of 2 oblits in via deep strike placed them in range of an icon and each unit took out a land raider. His 1 giant infantry squad got tied up with my Daemon Possessed of Nurgle, and Abaddon and 10 termies came in to finish them off. Those are the points I can remember anyway. 
Noise Marines would be nice for dealing with other cc armies because if you give them all sonic weapons you can throw out a crapload of shots whether your moving or not, and they're In5 so they can strike simultaneous or before most units. Plague Marines in an objective based mission go after and sit on an objective in cover and you'll most likely hold it for the battle. In annihilation still use them defensively, always kit out the squad with 2 plasma guns and a champion with plasma pistol power fist. Plasma is nice against most well armored infantry, and most vehicles. Also on a unit with 3+ armor and feel no pain overheat isn't as scary. You also take into account the T5, defensive grenades, and 2 ccw, and you have a squad that works very nicely for defensive fire support. Thousand Sons are the same way, great for sitting back and shooting. I wouldn't even bother with berzerkers, against Black Templars, I would mainly stick with choosing from the squads I mentioned above for my troop choices. That's just my opinion anyway.


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## chao5rule5baby!

*as far as Landraiders go.........*

Throw 5 Termies in a Land Raider, w MoS, and pairs of Lightning Claws.......Drive up to some Templars, charge, and mow them down....evil! right!?


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## mcmuffin

chao5rule5baby! said:


> Throw 5 Terms n a Land Raider, w MoS, and Lightning Claws.......Drive up to some Templars, charge, and mow them down....evil! right!?


Not particularly. because you are committing over 500pts of models to a task that can be achieved by obliterators from a distance. To be honest, competitive black templars don't run large units anymore. You are more likely to see 9 Speeders, 3 units of terminators, one with tank hunters and all with 2 cyclones in each unit. Super shooty templars are great. The basic troops tend to be min units in rhinos. They are exceptionally fragile if not used correctly


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## Warlock in Training

chao5rule5baby! said:


> Throw 5 Termies in a Land Raider, w MoS, and pairs of Lightning Claws.......Drive up to some Templars, charge, and mow them down....evil! right!?


I use this tatic alot and it works great on more than just Templar, plus the LR makes a great Ride for a underpowerd CSM Squad to sit in and roll on a Objective. Its good for 500 points of Survivability and Kiliness, just keep the LR away from MGs and Termies away from Plasma. Then my Oblits can focuse on other targets.


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## HOGGLORD

I don't know about anyone else, but I throw Bezerkers at most tyranid infantry and that seems to work fine, sure they don't hit as quick but they will only loose a few men if you charge first! Then you end up with a ton of attacks that slice nicely through the 5+ saves. 
Also, on a totally unrelated note, don't you think that Khorne Bezerkers should have access to flamers? (Kill, Maim, *Burn*)


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