# Solid info on Loyalist chapters derived from Traitor stock



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Anything solid on this?

I have recently seen some talk that the Blood Ravens are in fact "Loyalist Thousand Suns" and that there is a supposed Ultramarine successor Chapter that is actually Iron Warriors.

Are there any others that we know of in detail and is any of this confirmed anywhere (yet)?

Thanks for your time and patience.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Prosporo burns has some heavy hints about the Blood ravens.
Other than that there's no real solid evidence.

However there's a theory that the marines malevolent are based off of world eater gene stock. Again nothing solid.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There are none confirmed in fluff. The utterly ridiculous "are they, are they not" with the Blood Ravens is so overwrought and overdone that I frankly don't give a flying fuck about them. It was Goto's inane ramblings and moonstruck ravings that gave us this particular piece of horseshit, and the "UM" chapter built from Iron Warriors? Sounds like fanfic to me.

One possible one is the Minotaurs - but they are a Chapter who has what has been described as a "chimeric" geneseed, made from splicing together several, and considering their close relations with the High Lords of Terra, and an "unkillable" Chapter Master, and that their active history is blocked by the Inquisition and High Lords. My personal belief is that it's based on the Sons of Horus (there was a story about how a craft called "the minotaur" attempted a suicide attack on traitor sons of horus during Isstvaan), mixed with something, but that's simply speculation.

The Grey Knights, it's not explicitly come out and said what's happened yet.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Vaz said:


> The Grey Knights, it's not explicitly come out and said what's happened yet.


What do you mean by this?


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Vaz said:


> There are none confirmed in fluff. The utterly ridiculous "are they, are they not" with the Blood Ravens is so overwrought and overdone that I frankly don't give a flying fuck about them. It was Goto's inane ramblings and moonstruck ravings that gave us this particular piece of horseshit, and the "UM" chapter built from Iron Warriors? Sounds like fanfic to me.
> 
> One possible one is the Minotaurs - but they are a Chapter who has what has been described as a "chimeric" geneseed, made from splicing together several, and considering their close relations with the High Lords of Terra, and an "unkillable" Chapter Master, and that their active history is blocked by the Inquisition and High Lords. My personal belief is that it's based on the Sons of Horus (there was a story about how a craft called "the minotaur" attempted a suicide attack on traitor sons of horus during Isstvaan), mixed with something, but that's simply speculation.
> 
> The Grey Knights, it's not explicitly come out and said what's happened yet.


I thought the Grey Knights were Confirmed as derived from the Emperor's genestock? But there was some theory about their first chapter master being Omegeron?

The Iron Warriors mascarading as UM successors is based off of the Loyalist IW contingent that shows up working with the UMs in the recent HH books, Unremembered Empire maybe?

My problem with a lot of this stuff is how tenuous it all is.

Like we have some idea that some of the cursed foundings were made with traitor geneseed, but nothing is ever confirmed.

The Marines malevolent is a new one by me though.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The BR are a gimmick by BL to cash in on the interest in the 1K sons and appeasing to fanboys by making them not as reliant on sorcery as the 1K sons. So don't expect much quality or explanatory lore on them. A one trick pony is all they are.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What do you mean by this?


Knights Errant =/= Grey Knights yet in the Horus Heresy books, although everyone believes that to be the case. If not, we've simply got an overly similar name cashing in on that fact, and effectively stealing money of customers for some elaborate joke all for a similarly named special forces squad whose only notable abilities among their peers in the legion is that they are loyalists (sans Loken).

However, there are several "traitors" in the "Grey Knights", which if their geneseed gets taken from there, then they're part "traitor" legion. In regards to the Emperor giving them some juice, it's a possibility that it blends with the traitor legion stuff, but if it was all about the Emperor emptying his ballsack to make more geneseed, there'd be no need for the traitors to be relevant (or indeed, the Emperor to create the legions either).


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> but if it was all about the Emperor emptying his ballsack to make more geneseed, there'd be no need for the traitors to be relevant (or indeed, the Emperor to create the legions either).


It seems to be confirmed that the Grey Knights are of the Emperor's 'stock' (to some extent at least), the 5th edition Codex: Grey Knights states: "...Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul."

I've always assumed that the Knights Errant (or at least the remnants of them after their ridiculous suicide mission) went on to be the original Grand Masters and were responsible for training and organising Chapter 666 as Titan was submerged in the warp.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've always assumed that the Knights Errant (or at least the remnants of them after their ridiculous suicide mission) went on to be the original Grand Masters and were responsible for training and organising Chapter 666 as Titan was submerged in the warp.


I did not know any of that. Where is that from? what leads you to believe that?

Also; apparently the Space Sharks *are not* imperial Night Lords, but they just fight like they are.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> I did not know any of that. Where is that from? what leads you to believe that?


Codex: Grey Knights.

The bit about the Knights Errant going on to become the original Grand Masters is just conjecture on my part, though it would make sense. At least, that seems to be the direction the Heresy series is going in. The Knights Errant and the Inquisition/Grey Knights have to be related - given what we've been told in the series thus far.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Marauderlegion said:


> Also; apparently the Space Sharks *are not* imperial Night Lords, but they just fight like they are.


Based on the info in Extermination the Carcharodon Astra/Space Sharks are most likely the Raven Guard that were sent on an eternal voyage in Nomad Predation fleets by Corax when he took over. He didn't like the existing high command of the XIX legion as he felt they were too similar to the slavers he had fought on Deliverance.

I believe that one of the CA's fleet is actually listed in the heresy era Raven Guard fleet (sorry I can't remember the name offhand). 

More evidence to support this is that the CA's commander displays the white skin and black eyes which are classic Raven Guard gene seed indicators.

What's interesting is that since they were "ejected" from the Raven Guard prior to the gene seed tampering, technically they would have the most pure Raven Guard gene seed in the galaxy since all the Raven Guard successors would potentially have the corrupted gene seed although why the Raptors seem to have no problems with their gene seed is open to debate.


----------



## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> What's interesting is that since they were "ejected" from the Raven Guard prior to the gene seed tampering, technically they would have the most pure Raven Guard gene seed in the galaxy since all the Raven Guard successors would potentially have the corrupted gene seed although why the Raptors seem to have no problems with their gene seed is open to debate.


The first group of aspirants created using the gene technology Corax had acquired on his trip to Terra were called the Raptors. I think this first group numbered 500 IIRC. This is before the Alpha Legion infiltrators tampered with everything. Its safe to assume most of them survived to become the Raptors chapter during the second founding. Taking this into account would explain why the Raptors have few problems with their gene seed.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Yeah, sorry, had a brain fart there. for some reason I was thinking that the "knights errant" were a marine chapter.

Never mind.

But does it make sense for the same group to found both organizations? I know the GK and the -I- work pretty closely obviously.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Marauderlegion said:


> But does it make sense for the same group to found both organizations? I know the GK and the -I- work pretty closely obviously.


The first inquisitors and first knights errant/GKs were all presented to the emperor by Malcador at the same time. Personally I think Garro could end up as a proto Inquisitor rather than a GK, just from looking at the role he is fulfilling at the moment. 

As for the Raven Guard, it's also interesting to note that the DE have tampered with their gene seed as well as the mess caused by the AL.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The first inquisitors and first knights errant/GKs were all presented to the emperor by Malcador at the same time. Personally I think Garro could end up as a proto Inquisitor rather than a GK, just from looking at the role he is fulfilling at the moment.
> 
> As for the Raven Guard, it's also interesting to note that the DE have tampered with their gene seed as well as the mess caused by the AL.


The Dark Eldar tampered with the Raven Guard's geneseed? And the Alpha Legion as well?


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Marauderlegion said:


> The Dark Eldar tampered with the Raven Guard's geneseed?


There's mention in a White Dwarf of a heamonculus coven taking exception to the RG interfering with them on particular planet in M36, and they reeked a genetic revenge that took 101 years to manifest. No mention of how it actually manifested though.



Marauderlegion said:


> And the Alpha Legion as well?


It's all in _Deliverance Lost_.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Khorne's Fist said:


> There's mention in a White Dwarf of a heamonculus coven taking exception to the RG interfering with them on particular planet in M36, and they reeked a genetic revenge that took 101 years to manifest. No mention of how it actually manifested though.
> 
> 
> It's all in _Deliverance Lost_.


Ah! have not read that one yet


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I believe that one of the CA's fleet is actually listed in the heresy era Raven Guard fleet (sorry I can't remember the name offhand).


You're thinking of the _Nicor,_ which also served as the flagship for the Carcharodons during the Badab War.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Two other things:

1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel _A Thousand Sons._ I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.

2. And speaking of blatant angles/connections, I sincerely hope the decision is never made to disconnect the Knights Errant from the Grey Knights. I can't see how that would be accomplished without it being a contrived move, purely to throw in an unnecessary "Gotcha!" twist.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Two other things:1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel _A Thousand Sons._ I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.


Really? I picked up a few hints since _A Thousand Sons_. _Thief of Revelations_ (IIRC) for example.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

Phoebus said:


> You're thinking of the _Nicor,_ which also served as the flagship for the Carcharodons during the Badab War.


Does that confirm the CAs as Raven Guard Successor's then? And not Night Lords? They have some physical similarities, as well as limited tactical similarities as well



Phoebus said:


> Two other things:
> 
> 1. The Blood Ravens-Thousand Sons connection didn't become solid until the Horus Heresy novel _A Thousand Sons._ I understand Black Library has tried to distance itself from that angle since, but it was a rather blatant one.
> 
> 2. And speaking of blatant angles/connections, I sincerely hope the decision is never made to disconnect the Knights Errant from the Grey Knights. I can't see how that would be accomplished without it being a contrived move, purely to throw in an unnecessary "Gotcha!" twist.


1. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it seems obvious, but at the time, I just figured it was story-seeding for something in the future and the Raven References were just because those were the guys that specialized in seeing the future, which is commonly associated with Raven symbology, from what i know.

2. The Knights Errant thing though? I dunno it seems popular as an idea, but I just figured that they were proto-inquisition and the GKs come later. Though I find the idea of the GKs as literally being of IMPERIAL stock to be a bit odd as well. I guess they could be both? But how much time passes between the GKs being founded and the inquisition being founded? It's several thousand years, right? I could be wrong on that last one, but does that make sense?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Really? I picked up a few hints since _A Thousand Sons_. _Thief of Revelations_ (IIRC) for example.


Is "Thief of Revelations" another book, short story or a warship?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marauderlegion said:


> Is "Thief of Revelations" another book, short story or a warship?


http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/thief-of-revelations-mp3.html


----------



## jareddm (Jan 6, 2014)

Marauderlegion said:


> Does that confirm the CAs as Raven Guard Successor's then? And not Night Lords? They have some physical similarities, as well as limited tactical similarities as well


What confirms it is images of the Raven Guard, both in HH: Extermination, and on the model Raven Guard Land Speeder Javelin both having iconography that exactly matches the Pacific Islander-style markings the CAs use.



> 1. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it seems obvious, but at the time, I just figured it was story-seeding for something in the future and the Raven References were just because those were the guys that specialized in seeing the future, which is commonly associated with Raven symbology, from what i know.


At this point it's not even worth talking about the Blood Ravens. Just follow the storyline of Revuel Arvida, as that's pretty much the only thing that matters as far as where the Blood Ravens end up.



> 2. The Knights Errant thing though? I dunno it seems popular as an idea, but I just figured that they were proto-inquisition and the GKs come later. Though I find the idea of the GKs as literally being of IMPERIAL stock to be a bit odd as well. I guess they could be both? But how much time passes between the GKs being founded and the inquisition being founded? It's several thousand years, right? I could be wrong on that last one, but does that make sense?


You've confused a couple of things. The Inquisition has existed pretty much since the end of the Heresy. However, the Ordo Hereticus isn't formally established until after Goge Vandire is defeated. As stated in the GK codex, it's believed that the marines used to first found the GKs had their original geneseed removed and replaced with that of the Emperor. Thus, it's possible at at least some of the Knights Errant and the first GKs to be one and the same, just not at the same time.

For the purpose of the thread, I'll mention that there is a loyalist branch of Emperor's Children mentioned in HH: Conquest who go by the title of "Death Eagles". While it may be a coincidence, if they are related to the chapter of the same name, then I present it as evidence, alongside the CA, that trying to connect chapters to geneseed based on combat tactics is essentially worthless.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

40k Fluff seems to be of two minds when it comes to geneseed and the fate/nature of the marines it creates.

At some times it seems to be a wholly logical nurture-dominant narrative. The geneseed doesn't matter, unless it is somehow faulty. You could easily produce siege, void or special forces-esc chapters by chance or design from standard UM geneseed even though the UMs themselves are consumate masters of everything in the codex, which includes the whole range of Astartes tactics (and thus rather bland in practice, but in theory capable of anything).

At others, the fate or nature of a chapter seems derived in an occultic way from it's origins. There are references to Legions which already share their Primarch's nature in various ways before they ever meet. There are numerous numerological references presaging an eventual fate (Death Guard's 7 Great Companies, "The Original 7" referenced in Outcast Dead, for instance) and references to "cursed" geneseed. I have also seen references to Successor chapters which are basically patterned off their fore-bearers. 

There seems to be no rhyme or reason for it. Logically though, there is no reason to link chapters by tactics to shared geneseed, or even vice-versa in most cases.

For instance; There seems to be nothing genetic that makes most UM successors follow the Codex to the letter; it's a choice and maybe some nurturing from their parent chapter, but there is no reason why it should be genetic in any way.

I suspect we really don't know that much about just what can and cannot be transmitted through the geneseed outside of physical features; like the Night Lord's eyes, the Space Wolves' teeth or the Salamander's rockin tan.

I think it's a matter of taste and experience, modified by need and culture for instance that causes a chapter to adopt any particular specialty over another, if any.

Say we had a chapter of loyalists derived from World Eaters. Minus the Butcher's Nails; why *couldn't* they be a chapter of reserved, taciturn warrior-monks? Loyalist Night Lords could manifest as anything; even unusually humanitarian Reasonable Marines. 

However, if you had a plan from the start; say some Adeptus Terra or Mechanicus High-Muckety-Muck decides that what the Imperium really needs is to re-create the traitor legions in loyalist form; they might *or might not* use available hidden stockpiles of traitor geneseed. Or UMs, whatever. Unless there is, or they *believed* there was some reason that some of what they wanted ran in the blood.

This does conflict though with the chicken-egg aspect of the occultic fate or nature of certain geneseeds. The argument would fit well in 40K fluff that they are `born bad`, yoked to dark fates, ect. Aside from the fleshchange (and why, if they are thousand suns; do the Blood Ravens not suffer from that?), if you could fix that, is there something in the 1K-sons that makes them look at naughty books? or was that always Magnus?

This takes us down Alternate Universe Paths; like how would the Iron Warriors have turned out if they had been granted a more even hand in the Crusade? Or turn it on it's head; what if Robute Gulliman had been forced to become the master of seigecraft? Would he and his legion have turned from the grinding turmoil and become traitors? Certainly there are UM Successors who have gone rogue. if Loyalists can turn traitor, why couldn't traitor geneseed bear loyalist fruit? Certainly the example of the Knights errant seems to indicate it's as much a choice as a group culture.

Yet some Geneseed, particularly that which is more flawed or extreme; like the Space Wolves seems destined for a very particular role or failure. Say you could get a handle on the Canis Helix, enough to make the Wulfen only so bad a flaw as the Red Thirst or Black Rage, could you then make a Chapter of Wolves in say...Imperial Fists clothing? Space Wolves genetically, which fight and act like Imperial Fists. The Scrimshaw would be easy enough, but equally trivial ultimately.


----------



## jareddm (Jan 6, 2014)

I agree that there's a lot of grey area between what the geneseed affects, and what the Imperium believes it affects and thus acts upon. The combination of geneseed, planetary culture, founding history, available resources, and any number of other factors can influence the doctrines and traditions of a particular chapter. How much one factor influences a chapter compared to another could vary tremendously.

The Imperial Fist's particular brand of psychoindoctrination may be what's responsible for that geneseed-line's noticeable stubbornness. It might have nothing to do with the geneseed at all. On the other hand, a mis-handled batch of implants derived from perfectly good Ultramarine stock may lead to hyper aggression when in the presence of even minor warp phenomenon. That said, I feel it's a bit more complicated than just describing a geneseed as "faulty." There may be thousands, if not millions of minor differences between geneseed, even within the same chapter. Differences like, "Five percent more likely to have black carapace rejection." or, " Two percent more likely to find the slaughter of innocents amusing." Just thinking about the science behind it is mind boggling and why geneseed processing and implantation must be done with the strictest of rituals to keep such minor differences from compromising a newly implanted marine.

I will say that the Thousand Sons Flesh Change is just as likely to have been Tzeentch's directly meddling and not genetic at all. As if there were microscopic Marks of Tzeentch inscribed onto the Thousand Sons geneseed. Meaning it could be turned on and off at Tzeentch's will. Not saying there's really proof of it, but it is a possible explanation for why the Blood Ravens aren't affected by it, assuming they make use of the Thousand Sons geneseed at all.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> You're thinking of the _Nicor,_ which also served as the flagship for the Carcharodons during the Badab War.


Thanks 

I really hope they do more to explore the Carcharodon Astra - Raven Guard connection 



DeathJester921 said:


> The first group of aspirants created using the gene technology Corax had acquired on his trip to Terra were called the Raptors. I think this first group numbered 500 IIRC. This is before the Alpha Legion infiltrators tampered with everything. Its safe to assume most of them survived to become the Raptors chapter during the second founding. Taking this into account would explain why the Raptors have few problems with their gene seed.


Yeah, I wasn't sure if the link was going to be as blatant as that but it could be. Even more interesting is that if the Raptors do have the super geneseed created by Corax they would have geneseed superior to every other Chapter since Corax improved it so much. There is a storyline just asking to be told 



jareddm said:


> What confirms it is images of the Raven Guard, both in HH: Extermination, and on the model Raven Guard Land Speeder Javelin both having iconography that exactly matches the Pacific Islander-style markings the CAs use.


I've not seen the Land Speeder Javelin pic, do you have a link to it?


----------



## jareddm (Jan 6, 2014)

Here you are:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamm...IN_ATTACK_SPEEDER_WITH_MISSILE_LAUNCHERS.html

The patterning on the front is the same style as that found on the CA.


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

jareddm said:


> Here you are:
> 
> http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamm...IN_ATTACK_SPEEDER_WITH_MISSILE_LAUNCHERS.html
> 
> The patterning on the front is the same style as that found on the CA.


I'm nothing like an art guy, but that scrollwork (what it's called on a firearm) looks to me to be in a different style (monsters, a depiction of stars and nubulae vice tribal tattoos) than what I see on the CAs.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The RG contemptor is probably a better example. The sculpted design on it has a very Polynesian feel to it, very similar to the Space Sharks.


----------

