# does UK GW use metric



## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

I'm sure this is a hilarious question for some of you but I genuinely don't know the answer. I'm in the US and played epic 40k for many many years which uses the metric measuring system. Just recently I picked up warhammer 40k and was shocked that it uses bozo-measurements(read:american standard)

So is there another version of 40k that's sold in the UK that uses the correct metric system, or are you guys over there stuck with inches as well?

and second question, why can't us american's in our backwards country just give in and admit that our system is inferior and go metric like the rest of the developed world?


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

AFAIK GW uses the inches all over the place.


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

In some specialist games, metric is used, but for WFB and W40K, it's good old feet and inches. LOTR has both, though in my experience most people favour inches to centimetres...


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## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

That strikes me as very strange considering GW is based in the UK. I would like to apologize to all the UK players on behalf of AMP (American's for Measuring Properly) we're sorry that in order to market in the US GW has chosen to use inches in it's games. Unfortunately the american public in general believes that anything they use MUST be the best way of doing things. We're too stubborn to admit someone else came up with a better idea.


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## Mabrothrax (May 19, 2009)

Most of us Brits prefer our Imperial system, and in our truly ridiculous way we confuse ourselves by using both the Imperial and Metric systems.

Eurosceptics amongst us feel the need to use Metric (on food packaging especially, I like pints of milk and pounds of sausages!) something of an attack on our dear Blighty!

I don't think using the Imperial system has anything to do with selling stuff to you nutjobs on the otherside of the pond.


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

It's the same with currency. We are too proud to give up the Pound and take the Euro.

And we still have miles on signposts instead of kilometers. And don't get me started on what side of the road we drive on... Man was THAT confusing when I went for holidays in France as a kid...


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## johnnymajic (Jan 2, 2009)

In Canada it's all metric


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

I think (read: talking out of my arse) that GW games were started before the whole metric thing realy took off, then it just sort of stuck. Switching to metric now would throw alot of players, I know that I would be completley muddled up with guessing charge ranges and the like. I can use both systems (I do prefer metric though) but I realy can't convert between the two, mainly because imperial doesn't make sense to begin with XD

And yes, we should all use the Metric system and drive on the right. (Why the hell did we have to be awkward and drive on the left? Something to do with knights wanting to chop up peasants but that sooo last century.)


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## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

Mabrothrax said:


> Most of us Brits prefer our Imperial system, and in our truly ridiculous way we confuse ourselves by using both the Imperial and Metric systems.
> 
> Eurosceptics amongst us feel the need to use Metric (on food packaging especially, I like pints of milk and pounds of sausages!) something of an attack on our dear Blighty!
> 
> I don't think using the Imperial system has anything to do with selling stuff to you nutjobs on the otherside of the pond.


really? I always heard that metric was mostly used over there. we are nutjobs on this side of the pond, i wholeheartedly agree.



Void_Dragon said:


> It's the same with currency. We are too proud to give up the Pound and take the Euro.
> 
> And we still have miles on signposts instead of kilometers. And don't get me started on what side of the road we drive on... Man was THAT confusing when I went for holidays in France as a kid...



not sure if you guys heard the news about this, but over here in the states there is a bill in the works by our insane, fearmongering, war loving political party to ban the president from every converting the us into using a world wide currency similar to the euro. Even though there are no current plans to do such. "us 'mericans r better n smarterer and we don't want no common logik way o doin things."

i seriously need to move to Canada.


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## Crimson_Chin (Feb 20, 2009)

errr ... hey skull. If you want to talk about why you think GW should switch to metric measurements, go ahead and do so. But the political commentary is a bit much.

There's an off-topic forum for that, I believe.

(coming from an engineer who uses metric everyday, and has a thorough dislike of using imperial units in anything that matters - I still prefer my 6" charge to your .1524 m charge - but if you like canada better, get off your ass and go. Don't complain here.)


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

YAY! Move to Canada, join the Commonwealth, and have the same leader as us over in the UK. 

Although dear old Lizzy isn't a real leader, as Parliment sortof stole her family's power centuries ago lol...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Void_Dragon said:


> have the same leader as us over in the UK.


I'd prefer to go to Zimbabwe myself.


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## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

Crimson_Chin said:


> errr ... hey skull. If you want to talk about why you think GW should switch to metric measurements, go ahead and do so. But the political commentary is a bit much.
> 
> There's an off-topic forum for that, I believe.
> 
> (coming from an engineer who uses metric everyday, and has a thorough dislike of using imperial units in anything that matters - I still prefer my 6" charge to your .1524 m charge - but if you like canada better, get off your ass and go. Don't complain here.)


oh, sorry man. I just get a little riled up every time I think about people choosing a worse system over a better system of anything due to their own ignorant pride....you're right, much more appropriate for off-topic.


back on topic, I do think GW should use metric, specifically millimeters for it's games. It's just so much more simple to think in metric and you don't end up with funny half-units.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I can't use metres =( I still think of Furlongs and Acres as proper measurements =(

*Sits back in rocking chair looking indignant while smoking a pipe*


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

johnnymajic said:


> In Canada it's all metric


In Canada range and movement for 40k and Fantasy is measured in cm then? That strikes me as a fairly massive change, it would seem a lot easier to leave all the books saying M5 or whatever rather than M12.7 or whatever it works out as.


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## NurglingStomper (Jan 31, 2009)

Hmmm I could just be a "stubborn" American, but gawd do I love inches and feet. 

So wait, you Brits use feet and drive on the left side, while France uses meters and drives on the right side? Haha thats pretty funny.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

NurglingStomper said:


> So wait, you Brits use feet and drive on the left side, while France uses meters and drives on the right side? Haha thats pretty funny.


We use both, it can get extremely confusing at times, much like when NASA scientists used metric briefly on one of their space rockets and it missed by a few million miles I seem to remember. Oddly the USAF uses metric already or so I am told.

The driving thing is just the French being, well, French. The UK started driving on the left so obviously France had to be different and for some reason the world mostly followed their lead... (or something like that, could be that is just blighty based propaganda we get taught at school )


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## NurglingStomper (Jan 31, 2009)

squeek said:


> We use both, it can get extremely confusing at times, much like when NASA scientists used metric briefly on one of their space rockets and it missed by a few million miles I seem to remember. Oddly the USAF uses metric already or so I am told.
> 
> The driving thing is just the French being, well, French. The UK started driving on the left so obviously France had to be different and for some reason the world mostly followed their lead... (or something like that, could be that is just blighty based propaganda we get taught at school )


Haha I have to look that NASA thing up, it sounds hilarious. I've heard the same bout the Air Force as well, not too sure though. But, yeah using both systems of measurement does seem confusing, it's like when you're heading down to Mexico and all of a sudden your hit with Kilo's.


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

Mexico is metric, and we aren't?! :| Gawd, someone deffinately needs to go chat to Lizzy about this...

And now I'm going to stop with the off topic existential debate about politics, and just go back to what I said earlier - LOTR uses metric. Woo, go Tolkein. Or, go Tolkein's kid, 'cos the Tolkein we know and love has been dead a while...


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Quite frankly American usage of the imperial system has much less to do with "ignorance" than it does with geography. The geo-political landscape of Europe is far different than that of North America, and even Europeans who used feet and miles would be far more familiar with metric measurements than their American counterparts. If large parts of the United States used a metric standard, then familiarity, if not acceptance, would filter through out the nation and greatly ease the transition in a similar way. Mexico and Canada simply do not have sufficient sway in the US to influence it in the way European nations do over one another.

Actually the history of the metric system is quite interesting, if you are curious. It went far further than weights and lengths, with the French trying to impose metric clocks and calendars as well.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

skullkandy said:


> That strikes me as very strange considering GW is based in the UK. I would like to apologize to all the UK players on behalf of AMP (American's for Measuring Properly) we're sorry that in order to market in the US GW has chosen to use inches in it's games. Unfortunately the american public in general believes that anything they use MUST be the best way of doing things. We're too stubborn to admit someone else came up with a better idea.


I would like to apologize to the American people for having left you with the legacy of the ancient measurement system including inch's. GW was using inchs before they headed across the pond. Alas as other people have said the UK is only partially metricated. 

As much as I love tradition, I think this is one that needs shifting. My measurement system is well and truelly messed up because of it. Although schooling was largelly metricated (apart from the use of miles) experience after school forced me to adopt the imperial system in part. Theres just way too much stuff still done in imperial. My unit measurements go along the lines of Miles > metres > feet > inchs > mm's :angry: Even worse I mix units and will use something like 3inchs 3mm as a length. or part decimalised 5.2 inchs. I dont use 8ths etc...

I dont work with Kilometers at all, but I drive miles and use litres of fuel...

I buy pints of milk, and litres of cola...


When it comes to engine rebuilds etc I use imperial 10 thou 20 thou 30 thou overbores etc...

I do a lot of wood work so I go to the timber yard and ask for 20x 3m lengths of 4"x2" wood, yep I order metric lengths in imperial dimensions and the guy in the timber yard thinks nothing of it at all thats just how we do business... I order 8'x4' sheets in 12mm thickness :angry:. Im making efforts to metricate myself Im trying to kick the habit of doing my woodwork in feet and inchs, but I still slip back at times.


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

^^ thinks thats bad, us engineers have to suffer imperial, metric and SI. if we went all the way then 360deg would become "2Pi radians."

i actually like the set up we have at the moment, its just a case of selecting the correct unit for the job. when im doing sheet metal work i find it quite useful to go cut 5" of metal than 125mm. 

also when i was working on the american military stuff the army picked up a few years ago it was all in imperial and the guys running the program were working in imperial so it was a god send to have a few people that could work in both. 
how about an American truck with a metric CAT diesel engine, with a french trailer and uk mechanics?


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## Void_Dragon (Jun 11, 2009)

I do A level Maths, 360 degrees IS 2Pi radians to me. lol


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Angels Of Flame said:


> ^^ thinks thats bad, us engineers have to suffer imperial, metric and SI. if we went all the way then 360deg would become "2Pi radians."
> 
> i actually like the set up we have at the moment, its just a case of selecting the correct unit for the job. when im doing sheet metal work i find it quite useful to go cut 5" of metal than 125mm.
> 
> ...


Ive had a similiar situation early mk 2 escorts they used part mk1 escort bodypanels and half the nuts and bolts were metric and the other half imperial :angry: the 13mm and 1/2" spanners were being thrown around regularly :biggrin: 30 year old Ford electrics are no laughing matter either 

Not quite industrial stuff, but arghh could it make me curse having to guess what spanner set to use next on similiar size bolts.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

squeek said:


> We use both, it can get extremely confusing at times


Yeah it was right strange when I decided to drive on the right one day...


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Slightly random here, but why is everyone useing "Imperial" to refer to US measurements? Is there a particular reason, or is it just makeing fun of the US?


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## Mabrothrax (May 19, 2009)

Col. Schafer said:


> Slightly random here, but why is everyone useing "Imperial" to refer to US measurements? Is there a particular reason, or is it just makeing fun of the US?


Because they're not US measurements, they're Imperial. Let's not forget that the US is born of the peope who left Europe (where the history comes from) to escape religious nonsense curtailing science.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Col. Schafer said:


> Slightly random here, but why is everyone useing "Imperial" to refer to US measurements? Is there a particular reason, or is it just makeing fun of the US?


It's called Imperial because it was established by the British Empire.


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Really? Thats so wierd, I was taught to call it the "US standard system" Yay modern education...


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Yeah, I really wish that it wasn't called US Standard in some (probably most) of our schools, since it isn't really called that in the real world. It is just one more reason why those of us that are part of the US education system have problems with it.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Mabrothrax (May 19, 2009)

Well to be fair there are some _tiny_ differences between Imperial and US standard... 

*stupid facts*


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

True, I guess we don't use Stone for a unit of weight measure, etc. etc.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I think, at least in terms of 40k, inches and feet work just fine.

The base of a model is about an inch (25mm to be exact). If you're measuring everything in mm, you're using teeny-tiny measuements for long ranged things. What's easier? "Lascannon have a 48 inch range" or "Lascannon have a 1219.2 mm range"? Even rounding it off, 1219 or 1220 is an odd and fiddly number to deal with. Even 1200 seems pointlessly large

Could convert to CM, but then we're talking about pesky half-measures. A base is 2.5 CM, so now we're measuring half marks. Which you don't have to deal with at all with inches.

Sure, we could retool everything to work smoothly on CM, but why? The system works fine in inches.
Inches may not be perfect for the world at large, but in the context of a game where everything's self contained, you could tool it to measure in cubits for all it matters, as long as the measurements are consistent and fit within the practical confines of the game pieces. I've never found myself playing 40k and shouting "Damned inches! If only we'd measured in millimeters I could have won!"

And yeah, before slamming whole nations and railing about ignorance and pride, you should probably look up who invented the system and who was so proud of it they named it after their empire  

And if you think about it, the Imperial system makes perfect sense in a 40k fluff context. It's arcane, inefficient, arbitrary, and fits perfectly with all the other arcanr, inefficient, and arbitrary things which are marked as Imperial in the setting :grin:


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

This is slightly off of the topic, but the Japanese edition (yay for being bored in college) of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K does use centimeters at a 1"=2cm conversion rate while still using the standard mm base sizes. Even things like the Pavane of Slaanesh are D6x2cm.

The Spanish version of the CSM FAQ (yay for High School Spanish) mentions something staying 3cm away from enemy models, but I can't find any references to movement rates or weapon ranges to calibrate for the conversion. Although the Pavane of Slaanesh in the Spanish (according to the website article) appears to use the amazingly obnoxious mechanic of 'roll a D6 for distance, 1=3cm; 2=5cm; 3=8cm; 4=10cm; 5=12cm; 6=15cm'. uke:

I don't have a clue about the German or Italian translations of the Daemon articles, so no clue whether those editions use the 2:1 or 2.54:1 conversions. If GW did want to convert over to centimeters for the English or American editions, it really could go either way.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Yeah it was right strange when I decided to drive on the right one day...


A pox on you, you disingenuous cad! Taking a quote out of context is the territory of bounders, bounders and charlatans I say! 



solkan said:


> This is slightly off of the topic, but the Japanese edition (yay for being bored in college) of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K does use centimeters at a 1"=2cm conversion rate while still using the standard mm base sizes. Even things like the Pavane of Slaanesh are D6x2cm.
> 
> The Spanish version of the CSM FAQ (yay for High School Spanish) mentions something staying 3cm away from enemy models, but I can't find any references to movement rates or weapon ranges to calibrate for the conversion. Although the Pavane of Slaanesh in the Spanish (according to the website article) appears to use the amazingly obnoxious mechanic of 'roll a D6 for distance, 1=3cm; 2=5cm; 3=8cm; 4=10cm; 5=12cm; 6=15cm'.


This is interesting, I had wondered if other countries had special editions to convert to metric.


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## Epatus (May 17, 2009)

squeek said:


> ...it would seem a lot easier to leave all the books saying M5 or whatever rather than M12.7 or whatever it works out as.


Zeus Book? Anyone who has had experience of Engineering will know what I mean.



squeek said:


> The driving thing is just the French being, well, French. The UK started driving on the left so obviously France had to be different and for some reason the world mostly followed their lead... (or something like that, could be that is just blighty based propaganda we get taught at school )


Try this




Gul Torgo said:


> Actually the history of the metric system is quite interesting, if you are curious. It went far further than weights and lengths, with the French trying to impose metric clocks and calendars as well.


You are spot on my friend all the way back to the 1700's I think. France sent a letter to the UK asking us to be involved with a new measurement system and we ignored them.

@ dtq: I do exactly the same thing at work. It is just a case of using the best measurement for the job.

As for why games workshop chooses to use it, I can only assume it it to do with ease of use and scale. Inches are bigger than centimetres meanig you will need less of them.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Epatus said:


> Zeus Book? Anyone who has had experience of Engineering will know what I mean.
> 
> Try this


Not quite sure what you are getting at in regards to the Zeus Book? You are suggesting that all metric players should carry a conversion table around with them perhaps?

Also, whilst the link is interesting, it is hardly proof as such. I can find plenty of links that suggest other things, equally without any references. For example, this one says Napolean was the driving force behind it because he was lefthanded and so made his troops march on the right. This one suggest that since the previous drive on the left was endorsed by the Pope during the French Revolution, France changed to the right as a snub. Though they do seem to agree it was a difference perpetuated initially by French and British imperialism though. This is getting a bit off-topic though...


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## Epatus (May 17, 2009)

Yep, I believe that everyone should carry a book with conversion tables in a really small font size.
I have heard the Napolean one before. Anyway to answer the original question metric is used in some gaming systemms in the UK. Off the top of my head BFG, Inquisitor and Epic(?).


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Epatus.. you mean a 'BiNaS'.. it's a conversion and constants book. Well a dutch one anyway. It lists tons of chemicals and their composition, the elements, and just about every possible measurement unit in the world, and how to convert it around.
(BiNaS stands for Biology, Physics, Chemistry in dutch )


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## Epatus (May 17, 2009)

That might be a bit overkill. I am refering to a "Zeus Precision" conversion book. It is used in manufacturing.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm pretty sure they still use Imperial measurements in Warhammer because they always have.
It was started what, like almost 20 years ago?
So why should they change?
It works smoothly, it's a nice little measurement that's fairly large and easy to remember in its segments of 6".

That's just it, I'm willing to bet that they never changed it because there was no need to, and it would just confuse veterans.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Id Have thought metrication would be easy enough, working in 15cm increments 15cm replaces 6" 30cm replaces 12" 120cm replaces 48" etc etc. works out just under 2cm different over a normal board length, and is nice and easy to work with.

It works fine as it is of course, its just a thoroughly English mess, with GW using both metric measurements in places and imperial in others, even in the same game - our base sizes are given in mm in the same book as movement is given in inch's etc etc, and thats very much the way England works on a day to day basis.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

skullkandy said:


> I'm sure this is a hilarious question for some of you but I genuinely don't know the answer. [..] So is there another version of 40k that's sold in the UK that uses the correct metric system, or are you guys over there stuck with inches as well?


this is a question that comes up quite frequently and actually has a relatively simple answer.

outside of the US and UK 40k and Fantasy are published using Metric (cm) rather than Imperial/American Standard (").

there are a number of very good reasons as to why this is:
- cheifly inches is a more helpful measurement. at this scale, an average human miniature stands about 1" tall and covers an area rought the size of a circle 1" in diameter. this means that an inch is a very helpful increment to use when measuring distances. the difference between 0-1cm is not as helpful when defining whether units are in contact. its the same reason that we still use Feet and Inches to measure peoples height and Stone and Pounds to measure their weight, its a more helpful increment.
- when the game was first written metric was the official system of the UK but was largely ignored in favour of the older Imperial system. even now there are certain things that are always measured in Imperial just because that's how its always been done. not to mention the huge number of other specialist measuring systems like hands for horses and the like. they bear no relation to anything else, but are just the way things are done.

in Europe cm are used in the game, but they are ridiculous measurements that are simply designed to be close to the original Imperial distance. they aren't even incremental.



skullkandy said:


> and second question, why can't us american's in our backwards country just give in and admit that our system is inferior and go metric like the rest of the developed world?


the deeper issue is why you are never taught where that system comes from, why it is used and the many ways in which it is more beneficial than the Metric system.


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## NerdyOgre254 (Jul 16, 2008)

wow, five pages and no australian comment.

Australia is a metric system (and we drive on the left side of the road and we don't have a president we have a prime minister and... gonna get back on topic now).
that said, we use inches for WH and 40K, and every single LOTR player i know uses inches. i wouldn't be surprised if tournaments did too.


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

NerdyOgre254 said:


> wow, five pages and no australian comment.
> 
> Australia is a metric system (and we drive on the left side of the road and we don't have a president we have a prime minister and... gonna get back on topic now).


that's because your a proper country, full of crims but a proper country none the less. :laugh:

and Dw Epatus, i think theres only three of us on here that have ever had to use a zeus book.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Angels Of Flame said:


> that's because your a proper country, full of crims but a proper country none the less. :laugh:


Whut?
America is 10 times worse than us for Crime of all sorts, we just have a knack for doing things well, not too much random assaults and the like, and a fair bit of organised stuff.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> this is a question that comes up quite frequently and actually has a relatively simple answer.
> 
> outside of the US and UK 40k and Fantasy are published using Metric (cm) rather than Imperial/American Standard (").
> 
> ...


But base sizes and scale are both metric not imperial a base size is 25mm, 40mm or 60mm not 1", 1.57" or 2.36" the height scale (such as it is) is based on 28mm not 1". GW are not based on "imperial measurements" they mix and match all over the place. They dont stick to "one system" 



> in Europe cm are used in the game, but they are ridiculous measurements that are simply designed to be close to the original Imperial distance. they aren't even incremental.


Alas here in the uk theres many things that are produced in "ridiculous" metric measurements just to be close to archaic imperial standards. The only thing making it ridiculous is that its all just half arsed metrication, believe it or not the continental europeans have no huge issues dealing with just metric and things made to metric standards. A 40k game designed from the bottom up around purelt metric measurements would not be clunky or awkward at all, its just fitting a part metric part imperial game to metric measurements that makes it awkward.



> the deeper issue is why you are never taught where that system comes from, why it is used and the many ways in which it is more beneficial than the Metric system.


The imperial system is a MESS really, you start with thousandths of an inch then the next unit up is 16ths of an inch, but theres no "whole" number division of 1000ths to 16ths of an inch, then you get to 12 inchs to a feet then 3 feet to a yard then 1760 yards to a mile, really wheres the logic in that, it leads to all sorts of odd calculations...

Metric measurements all use a really nice tidy base 10, as our main number system does, it makes decimal points on measurements really clear and easy. 1.5 metres is 150 centimetres just move the decimal point along, 1.5 yards however is a little different you have to tackle the 3 feet to a yard calculation first so thats 4.5 feet, then you have to tackle the 12 to a feet calculation to get to the answer of 54". Sure for those of us used to working in imperial measuremetns we can do it fast enough in our head - but still not quite so fast and easy as pure metric conversions. The Imperial system has no logical base at all, its not an "easier" or "better" system.

The only thing that makes the imperial system usefull is the amount of stuff still made to imperial measurements the metric system by itself is far more streamlined and logical. Theres nothing inherently awkward in using metric for any measurements as long as things are designed with the metric system in mind. It only becomes awkward when try fitting metric measurements to stuff made in imperial measurements.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

dtq said:


> But base sizes and scale are both metric not imperial a base size is 25mm, 40mm or 60mm not 1", 1.57" or 2.36" the height scale (such as it is) is based on 28mm not 1". GW are not based on "imperial measurements" they mix and match all over the place. They dont stick to "one system"


modern metrication has caused a hotch-potch system, that is something we can all agree on. however the point remains that an inch is roughly the height and width of a man sized model, making it a (relatively) useful distance within the game.



dtq said:


> Alas here in the uk theres many things that are produced in "ridiculous" metric measurements just to be close to archaic imperial standards. The only thing making it ridiculous is that its all just half arsed metrication, believe it or not the continental europeans have no huge issues dealing with just metric and things made to metric standards.


someone has a bee in their bonnet. :wink:

the ridiculousness to which i referred was about the specific length themselves (generally increments of an arbitrary 15cm). not the metric system itself.

with the exception of a few countries, the whole world use the metric system, and it is not beyond my imagination that they manage to survive perfectly well with it.




dtq said:


> The imperial system is a MESS really, you start with thousandths of an inch then the next unit up is 16ths of an inch, but theres no "whole" number division of 1000ths to 16ths of an inch, then you get to 12 inchs to a feet then 3 feet to a yard then 1760 yards to a mile, really wheres the logic in that, it leads to all sorts of odd calculations...


that is certainly one way of looking at it, but its not a very helpful way.

the Imperial system was never designed to measure things that are 1000th of an inch in length, that has been a much later development. so it is hardly worth calling it up on that error, particularly considering that we are all well aware of it and it is one of the chief reasons it is no longer used.

the real benefits of the Imperial system come from the fact that measurements are designed around people and everyday life. feet and inches are actually more helpful when considering a persons height than meters, cm and mm. that the average height of a man is between 1 and 2 meters isn't a particularly helpful piece of information in comparison to between 5 and 6 feet tall. similar reasoning applies to other measurements.

equally, one of the major benefits of Imperial measurements in comparison to Metric is that they are generally divisible by more factors without resorting to decimals or fractions (which when dividing solid objects is unhelpful).

i whole heartedly agree that Imperial is archaic and backwards, and that in the vast majority of examples the Metric system is superior. the point remains that the Imperial system is not without purpose or merit.



dtq said:


> Metric measurements all use a really nice tidy base 10


i wasn't aware that there was anything 'tidy' about base 10. its not divisible by 3 or 4. in fact the only thing you can do with it is divide it by 2. there is no very good reason why we should not use base 12, as the Babylonians did, other than we have ten fingers in front of us for very basic calculation.

but then, if we are relying on finger power, i can count much higher than 10 on my figures if i simply use binary, the 'tidiest' base of the lot.



dtq said:


> Theres nothing inherently awkward in using metric for any measurements as long as things are designed with the metric system in mind. It only becomes awkward when try fitting metric measurements to stuff made in imperial measurements.


i agree. sadly, the universe has conspired against you to make you foot a foot long, your inch an inch, your span a span and your hand a hand. Metric is a brilliant universal system, but _it _is the one trying to force a single solution on a variety of problems, not the other way around.


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## rdlb (Nov 30, 2008)

I've heard some crazy things about Australia, like everything is backwards; hot snow falls up, crooks chase cops, toilet water goes the WRONG way down the drain, and instead of having just Georgia as a penal colony, your whole country was one. Which brings up another point, is it a country or a continent? And you've outlawed firearms for pete's sake! :biggrin: Just kidding so take it easy mates

We Americans have just as many funny stereotypes, which make for endless jokes, so go ahead. 

I heard the new Orion moon lander project is using the standard system, or whatever you want to call it, so they can buy high quality materials and components from US manufacturers.

What's a prime minister? Proper?


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## riskman (Mar 28, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Angels Of Flame
> that's because your a proper country, full of crims but a proper country none the less.
> 
> ...


He was refering to the fact that Australia started out as a penal colony for criminals from the UK.


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## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

Col. Schafer said:


> Really? Thats so wierd, I was taught to call it the "US standard system" Yay modern education...


that's because here in the US it's easier to teach us that we're the greatest and we created everything awesome than it is to actually try and do great things.

propaganda in education, it happens every day.


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## skullkandy (May 27, 2009)

Galahad said:


> I think, at least in terms of 40k, inches and feet work just fine.
> 
> The base of a model is about an inch (25mm to be exact). If you're measuring everything in mm, you're using teeny-tiny measuements for long ranged things. What's easier? "Lascannon have a 48 inch range" or "Lascannon have a 1219.2 mm range"? Even rounding it off, 1219 or 1220 is an odd and fiddly number to deal with. Even 1200 seems pointlessly large
> 
> ...



actually CM would work better and would have less half numbers than inches because it's a more precise system. It's also easier to judge by the eye due to having a base 10 logic to it.

epic is done in CM and it worked wonderfully.


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

have you heard the song by MC Lars? I can't recall the title, but it's about how silly the american system of measurment is.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> Yeah, I really wish that it wasn't called US Standard in some (probably most) of our schools, since it isn't really called that in the real world.


Much like how some of you (most of you) call football soccer.

I have been known to hurt people who say that to my face :angry:

Anyway, we vikings are pretty boring on this subject. We use all the metric measurements and always have done. We drive on the right side of the road, buy 0.5L of beer, there's 1L milk in a carton, I'm 194cm tall, my car can go 0-100 km/ph in 7 seconds and I weigh 93kg.

Yet, I never even found it difficult or odd using inches in WH40K... It was just... Natural!


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## SuspiciousPenguin (Oct 26, 2009)

Nope, inches all the way, TBH i don't consider us to be a heavily metric country, we use a mixture of both, but yes for warhammer, lotr and 40K use inches, but battlefleet gothic is centermeters.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

rdlb said:


> I've heard some crazy things about Australia, like everything is backwards; hot snow falls up, crooks chase cops, toilet water goes the WRONG way down the drain, and instead of having just Georgia as a penal colony, your whole country was one. Which brings up another point, is it a country or a continent? And you've outlawed firearms for pete's sake!


Not backwards, the right way 'round. We have it the correct way, it is you who are backwards. Your star charts are also upside down. 

Hot snow falls down, not up. It's called Rain. Strong rain falls sideways though. 
Crooks chase cops, true (unless you are in Qld or Vic, where they will shoot you 16.3 times each on average.). As for the toilet issue? Depends a lot on the shape of the bowl (and the fact that they don't fill up anywhere near as much). You've stolen our dual flush toilet design, I've noticed. Much more "enviro-friendly". 

Firearms aren't outlawed - just restricted (heavily). If you have a valid reason for owning one. Most people don't have one (a valid reason, that is. Self defense is not considered a valid reason.). Automatic weapons have been illegal for decades, and semi-automatics are restricted (rifles). Magazine capacity is the biggest restriction. Shotguns (pump) went to internal mags no larger than 5 rds down from 8. Doesn't stop nutjobs from getting them though.

BFG uses metric. French and Spanish 40k uses metric.

Oh, and yes, Australian tournaments use inches. Why? The rules of the game. I was raised with metric (came in a bit under 2 years before I was born), but it took a while for it to become generally accepted.


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## Volken (Dec 31, 2008)

admiraldick said:


> this is a question that comes up quite frequently and actually has a relatively simple answer.
> 
> outside of the US and UK 40k and Fantasy are published using Metric (cm) rather than Imperial/American Standard (").
> 
> ...


in fact the game system is in inches in France too


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

skullkandy said:


> actually CM would work better and would have less half numbers than inches because it's a more precise system. It's also easier to judge by the eye due to having a base 10 logic to it.


oh dear, it sounds like you might have succumbed to 'Metric is the Best' propaganda.

the game doesn't currently use any fractions of inches, so you're point is flawed from the start, and if the game simply abandoned Imperial in favour of Metric then its likely the base increment would be 3cm, so there still wouldn't be any half measurements required.

also Metric is no more precise than Imperial, they both measure things to the same degree of accuracy. the difference is in the scales of measurements and thus the ease with which they can describe objects. Metric is better for small and large items, which is what it was designed for, and Imperial is better at every day things, which is, again, what it was designed for. the question is, is it more helpful to say your men can move a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 12, or your men can move a minimun of 3 to a maximum of 30. my personal opinion is that it would be the former.

also, your assertion that metric being baase 10 is helpful in this situation is also erroneous, because, whilst we do use increments of 12", we don't measure in feet. that is to say guns fire 12", 18", 24", 36" and so on, not 1', 1' 6", 2', 3' etc. so we still are using base 10 for calcualtions, otherwise we have to invent new numbers (e.g. ~ = 10 and & = 11, meaning that 10 = 12, 1& = 23, 20 = 24 and ~4 = 124).

more importantly, just like the problems caused by encouraging US citizens to infer that _they _invented the Imperial/US Standard system, encouraging people to be overly dependent on base 10 calculation, or even to assume that there is no other way, is uphelpful to education.



skullkandy said:


> epic is done in CM and it worked wonderfully.


Epic miniatures are a different scale (the average infantry base being around 1cm square). so yes, Metric is a much better system for that game.

different scale games can use different scales to measure them.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Anyway, we vikings are pretty boring on this subject. We use all the metric measurements and always have done.


forgive me for being cynical, but i find it hard to believe that when constructing longships to raid coastal villages, your ancestors were using mm. :grin: 



MetalHandkerchief said:


> We drive on the right side of the road,


i'm not sure that ahas anything to do with the Metric system other than by habit.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Yet, I never even found it difficult or odd using inches in WH40K... It was just... Natural!


i don't wish to sound ignorant here, but do i take it that you don't get Norwegian versions of the game though? you guys get the same issues of WD as here in the UK, so i would guess its the same with the rules.



Volken said:


> in fact the game system is in inches in France too


really? i didn't know that. maybe its just the lazy Spaniards who can't be bothered to use Imperial. i've got a random copy of 3rd ed Codex: Eldares which uses cm rather than inches.


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## keytag33 (Apr 20, 2008)

Ok having once upon a time tried to become a Machinist, I can say with some accuracy that you can make precise measurement with both. 

Canada went metric back in the 70's, so we have a hodge podge of systems. We buy food by the kilos and litres, we drive in kilometres and KM/hr but our lumber and building supplies are in feet and inches, and the code books are written in metric.

Having worked in both systems I have to say I prefer metric it's much easier to use. 

If centimetres aren't big enough to use in the game then we can use decimetres instead.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Or GW could make a whole new measuring system, called _space units!!!_ or smurf units, maybe? . . . equivalent to 3 cm. I'm sure I had a point behind this somewhere.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

Or GW could make a whole new measuring system, called _space units!!!_ or smurf units, maybe? probably, . . . equivalent to 3 cm. I'm sure I had a point behind this somewhere.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I find that inches works well for the game, coming from a writing point of view, in apoc having a gun say range is 900 odd" is easier than typing in range is 2286cm, just from a prinitng point and layout point it does save some space in the summary section, though this is a minor thing but in saying that it's much easier for younger players to find 48" on a tape measure than find 121.9cm on one, it's already hard for them to get the hang of rules (for goodness sake) they need to make one part easy for them.


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