# Help picking the best 'counts as' army...



## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

So I'm trying to get a friend of mine into playing Warhammer. I'd like to get him to play a legal army (as I have High elves), I'd rather have him playing so I can use my army, than push the issue. He recently suggested putting together an army based off of Ancient Greece.

More specifically, he's been watcihng 300 too much.

So he wants an army mostly of infantry, lots of spear men phalanxes and such like that. I assume he's going to throw in some cavalry as support, we haven't gotten into it much yet. But he did want something of a 'stubborn' rule... never give up, never surrender sort of thing.

So what can I use for this?


On another note... do Warhammer Historical armies mesh with Fantasy armies? Could one be used against the other?


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

As it happens I think High Elves or possibly Dark Elves would be your best bet as they have ASF and Eternal Hatred respectively that sort of sub for the stubborn rule (bear with me) and have troops that are the nuts in combat. The Greek theme may be hard to pull off, though it depends how flexible he is with it. He could paint them in the 300 colours and just pick units that fit the flavour closest, though he may want more than that.

As far as I am aware Fantasy and Historical do not mix as the rules are so different, are they even the same scale? I could be wrong but I think you should try to get him to stick with Fantasy. If he wants the hard hitting, badly outnumbered thing then the closes book to that is Ogre Kingdoms in terms of the model stats and low model count on the table.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Well, ogres are plain out. No way he's going to be throwing out 10-foot tall Spartans at me.

I considered that High Elves might be pefect for him, mostly because (while boring) he could easily put together a massive army of spearmen and/or Sea guard with an impressive Noble. I just didn't want us both running the same army, even if the styles were completely different.

I've never looked at the dark elves, but if they have similiar units, it might be worth considering.


I also should probably look through the new WoC book... while they make impressive calvary, they're pretty tough nuts themselves, and I think most if not all are fearless.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Xabre said:


> So I'm trying to get a friend of mine into playing Warhammer. I'd like to get him to play a legal army (as I have High elves), I'd rather have him playing so I can use my army, than push the issue. He recently suggested putting together an army based off of Ancient Greece.
> 
> More specifically, he's been watcihng 300 too much.
> 
> ...



Dwarves are a very stubborn army, but haven't quite gotten the concept of Pointey Sticks down. Too newfangled, so probably not them.

My Suggestion? Vampire Counts. Spear Skeletons will never give up, never surrender. Just kinda dissolve away slowly. No breaks, no leaving the field of battle. Might be a stretch for him to convince himself of his undead greeks, but they get a lot of benefits he wants. And are a rock solid army.

Another odd alternative is Lizardmen. With the 3d6 cold blooded rule, he will have to roll for break checks, but won't break very often. And Lizards are high armor save, high attack models. Now, of course, convincing him that the scaley guys are really Greeks might be hard.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I would agree with Creon over the Lizards. Saurus Heroes are one of the strongest selections - with only Greater Daemons and Chaos Lords being better as a Non Special Character choice.

They can get Spears, are Frightfully hard to break - Ld8, and take Ld Tests on 3 Dice, discarding the highest. Also, they're rather expensive as well, fitting in with the outnumbered theme - Chaos Warriors and Ogre Bulls are point for point the only equal unit for skill.

Chaos Warriors are point for point the very best infantry unit. However, like Dwarves - they don't have a concept of a Cocktail stick. Still, Great Weapons or Halberds could be used to represent spears, not to mention nasty. Give them the Mark of Slaanesh, and you have a unit that has most of the Pro's of ItP, and none of it's Negatives (i.e, you can flee, should you choose). Alternatively, Mark of Khorne gives you very little control, but actual awesomeness in Combat - 3 Str 4 attacks basic. I think that a Chaos Warrior unit with Halberds and Shields, with Mark of Slaanesh is a fair representation.

As for Ogres - there's no need to model them as 10 foot tall Spartans. However, they're not likely to stick around in a fight too long.

Alternatively, have you considered Daemons? While maybe not the most competitive, Several (many) units of Bloodletters lead by a few Heralds of Khorne would be very nice.

5+ Ward Save to bypass the armour piercing could show how tough they are, Magical attacks to harm anything... However, they do have Instability - not such a good way to depict losses... Although you could say that as they know no fear, they get dragged down by victorious enemies. You could also, if need be, take a Bloodthirster as Leonidas - the Fly move could represent his huge leap, Large target to represent his huge personality. I've had an idea of that - and I'll create a Daemons list just for fun to use them


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Alternatively, have you considered Daemons? While maybe not the most competitive, Several (many) units of Bloodletters lead by a few Heralds of Khorne would be very nice.
> 
> 5+ Ward Save to bypass the armour piercing could show how tough they are, Magical attacks to harm anything... However, they do have Instability - not such a good way to depict losses... Although you could say that as they know no fear, they get dragged down by victorious enemies. You could also, if need be, take a Bloodthirster as Leonidas - the Fly move could represent his huge leap, Large target to represent his huge personality. I've had an idea of that - and I'll create a Daemons list just for fun to use them


That is actually a fabulous idea, thinking outside of the box as usual Vaz  A pure Khorne DoC army even has the to the death attitude of the Spartans in 300. Bloodletter's would make perfect hard as nails soldiers and skulltaker would be an outstanding Leonidas if you prefer not to have a thirster rampaging around the table.


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

a pure khorne army can be nasty supported by a few furies(only non-khorne), just load up on hounds and heralds fill in with BLs furies and maybe a jug or two and you have a nasty list. plus it will be small model count.


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## Stuntiesrule (Mar 22, 2009)

DE would definitely be good when he is playing against HE, but their spearmen are dirt cheap so he may find he is fielding to many models for his liking, if it was still legal I would say DoW since they had a unit for just about any theme you could want.


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## Fire starter Pyro (Apr 1, 2009)

Well why not use the DOW army list of the GW website as they do come with pikes as a core choice. and you can use a wide range of other race min's as count as and still be in character of the army. 

On a nerdier note their weren't just the 300 spartans at their famous last stand they were joined by 1,000 other greeks(I think they were Phocians) who stayed behind to helo them out. plus they killed way more persians in real life than in the film.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

If he is after cool Greek models that will fit with warhammer well then he should take a look at the Wargods of Olympus range. They are sculpted by Chris Fitzpatrick who did a lot of the older Dark Elf stuff (Witch elves and such). The models are the same scale and the bases are the same as Warhammer Fantasy ones (apart from having nice rounded corners). I've bought a load of their Basti models from the "Aegyptus" range and they are an absolute pleasure to paint.

Crocodile Games Spartan Miniatures for Wargods of Olympus
http://www.crocodilegames.com/secur...D=43&pageHeading=Items - Miniatures - Olympus

http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-302.jpg Spartan Peltasts
http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-502.jpg Spartan Chariot
http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-502.jpg Dienekes, Spartan Hero
http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-105.jpg Alkaeus, Spartan Hero

As for what army to use, I'd say High Elves is best for representing an army of pre-blackpowder highly trained troops.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Cause Dogs of War have no spear units.


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## Doombull (Mar 31, 2009)

I think maybe warriors of chaos with halberds and shields would be a neat idea, dogs of war would be cool and i want to do an army but it turns out they are banned from tournaments and this puts me off.

Maybe empire spearmen with shields and in 2000 points you could actually fit in about 300 models plus a hero or two


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## Franko1111 (Jun 25, 2008)

Doombull I would just like to say that halberds are two handed and so them with sheilds are out

Lizardmen withs spears would be perfect for spartans as the cold blooded rule helps a lot with not running and it seems a good army that would win games:victory:


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## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Doombull said:


> I think maybe warriors of chaos with halberds and shields would be a neat idea, dogs of war would be cool and i want to do an army but it turns out they are banned from tournaments and this puts me off.
> 
> Maybe empire spearmen with shields and in 2000 points you could actually fit in about 300 models plus a hero or two


Sure they are banned but there is nothing to say he couldn't turn around and use them as Empire spearmen when he grows out of this rediculous 300 obsession.


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## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Now if this is to be done as a friendly game why not use the Lizardmen, or whatever race he chooses, army book and use spartan looking models. As long as the two of you can remember which inits are which that's all that matters.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Franko1111 said:


> Doombull I would just like to say that halberds are two handed and so them with sheilds are out


2 Handed only refers to them in combat.

Chaos Warriors should never ever be taken without a shield. need points? Lose the Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician, in that order. Shield gives them the Flexibility that you need from such expensive and slow models.


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## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Why would you loose the standard before the musician? Standard give +1 CR all the time, Musician only if you have tied. I prefer to loose the standard last.


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## retiye2 (Oct 20, 2008)

but the standard is 100 vps and the mus helps you if you volutarily flee.

personally I take mus over standard, especially if the mus is (and it often is) cheaper.

I personally am chucking im my vote for 300 dow pikes...

fun fun.

otherwise I am still playtesting my 300 marauders in 3 blocks with festus, lord and a banner of the gods

maybe festus could be that crippled spartan dude you eventually betrays them?


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