# Versus The Daemon Prince



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Six​*
They're big, they're scary...they can take a shot to the face from a bloody Titan and keep walking, it's the Daemon Prince, centerpiece of most new Chaos armies.

Wings are a popular addition, as are psychic powers. They're utterly lethal in close combat, and with the right powers can be deadly threats in the shooting phase as well. With a high toughness, a 3+/5++ (4++ with tzeentch) save and immunity to Instant Death, these multiwound monsters are very hard to kill, and not easy to ignore.

So how do you bring them down?


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I have no idea. That's why I suggested it. I've tried firing everything I have at it with no luck. I suppose fielding a Grey Knight ally would work


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## VladicusMaximus (Mar 28, 2008)

They dont have the highest toughness, 5 right? Anything ap3 and str 4 or better would do the trick. I know they have a 5+ inv., but how often will they make that roll? 1/3 of the time. So in theory 5 shots hitting him and wounding with ap3 or better should kill him every time. 

The trick is getting that to happen. Plasma guns, Missile lauchers, lascannons, meltaguns, a host of tau weaponry for ranged. In cc Powerfists or the like should do nicely. anyone using the demon dosent want to have to roll the 5+ save so dont give him the ability to do anything but.

It really depends on what your fielding. Psychic hoods would be great to negate lash and other effects they might have.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

With probably many taking the addition toughness, the 6+ toughness on these will make them deadly, virtually invulnerable if Nurgle, with autocannons only wounding 4+.

Part 1
Bypass​If you can ignore their armour, then you're going to limit them to a significantly less powerful invulnerable save. Lascannon's are ideal for this - The Terminus Ultra pattern in Apocalypse is perfect, 5 Lascannon's can reduce the behemoth to a pile of slag.

However, as you won't always be playing Apocalypse, you can't always rely on these weapons. However, a Predator Annhilator with 2 Las Sponsons will fulfil the same role, as will a Lascannon Armed Devastator Squad, maybe with a Razorback, lascannon turret naturally. A thunderhammer armed Terminator Assault squad will reduce that Rampaging World Eater Deamon Prince to a Slow and Steady beast.

Tau have Rail-guns, depending on whether they have bodyguards, and/or a 3+ save, then submunitions could be used, if not rely on solid slug.

Necrons Gauss Weaponry will provide a rending shot occasionally, although their weaponry falls under the next section.

Eldar lance weaponry or starcannon, depending again on bodyguard and saves.

Imperial Tanks can also blow it apart - the Basilisk template, large as it is can easily punch through the armour, knocking it down to its invulnerable save, while wounding on 2's.

As a note - Melta's may sound good, but unless you've got a multi-melta, buy a plasma gun - rapid firing AP2 weapons = good.​
Part2
Swamp​When your Chaos Lord / Daemon Prince is about to hit your lines, you'll want something fast firing, of adequate strength and if possible a high AP.

Necrons are the best at this, Rapid Fire, Rending Weaponry, means those 20 Necron warriors won't look a tasty prospect, despite those 5 Terminators your opponent brought to make the prince as uninviting as possible, 40 shots, with possibly 6/7 shots rending, of which 3/5 may get through, an additional 4/5 wounds caused, and with 1 or 2 not saved, you can cause in excess of 7 wounds if you're extremely lucky. Assaulting a unit which can then just get up after is not a brilliant plan after that.

Heavy Bolters, Starcannons, Scatterlasers, Assault Cannons, Autocannons, and PLASMA GUNS are your best friend here.​
Part 3
Combat​When it comes to Nitty gritty combat, you can't get much better than Chaos at combating it - If they still have the Dread Axe, mount that on a Monstrous Creature, and get the charge in with a squad of Terms / Combat Marines to tip the balance in weight of numbers, and you have a trapped Daemon Prince, with no save.

Space Marines armed with Thunder Hammers can stun the Daemon Prince, until you can get some Lightning Claws into the creature, the re-roll making the wounding easier, and the Thunder Hammer wounding on a 2/3 (if Nurgle).

Eldar Banshees, although with power weapons tend to be a bit too Strength 3 for their own good. You're best staying out of combat, as even the Exarch will require a 5+ to wound with the Double Weapon (forget name, sorry).

Tyranids can swamp the beast with Hormagaunts, while not shooting, the sheer number of attacks, they're bound to fail. A Broodlord leading genestealers can easily go toe-to-toe with a full retinue.

Tau - no comment. Not even Kroot are up to this. But you already knew this.

Necrons - a bit slow, but then again, I'd advised taking powerfists or equivalents earlier. Pariahs and flayed ones can be more than sufficient. You might want to stick to shooting.

Daemonhunters - Grey Knights. No more needs to be said. 10 Terminators, Captain with Holocaust in addition to his squad, will blow apart the enemies, and can seriously wound the Prince.

Guard - Combat you say? Take the Grey Knights as Allies if you want combat.

Sisters - Swamp with Bolters, Flamers and Meltas is more your game. Unless you have a penitent engine and arco flagellants, or sisters repentia you can time to hit the daemon prince at the same time then your rolling.​


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm begining to sound a bit like a broken record but in this case its very valid. GK GM with Pyscannon and MC-NFW. Put him with his mates in a Bodygaurd and you have a unit that is designed for the job of bringing down the DP.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

To date, I've killed more daemon princes with chainswords than anything else. Usually, it's just a single guy with a chainsword, to boot-- the daemon kills a couple, and then he takes a couple wounds in return from chainswords. Sometimes, he kills enough that there's just one guy left, and that one guy finishes him off. *shrug* I've really never had trouble with daemon princes. Even in the old codex.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

I play BA/Fleah Tearers, and have been using the Mephiston-Corbulo combintaion which is pretty scary. The problem is timing and getting all the peaces to fall into place. (Side note this has to be one of the most useful character combos for BA IMHO, the only draw back is its pricey)

I would try and soften the DP up with a few MM shots just for insurance and use Mephy's P-Hood to nulify any Psycic powers the beast has. Now for the tricky part, make sure Corbulo is with in 12" of Mephiston at the beginning of his assualt phase, which really isn't that difficult. 

If this happens you have a dead DP, take a plasma shot with Mephy for a little more insurance and charge...actually Furious Charge. Thats 7-9 Intiative 7 Strength 6 attacks, I don't care what mark you have thats going to hurt. Considering you're wielding a Force Weapon I think you can kill him with a psychic test since this doesn't constitute Insant Death Under the 4th Ed Rules set. I'm sure Gal can correct me if i'm wrong. :victory: 

Now if you tank your dice rolls, I'm sorry Mephy is going to feel the pain, but war is risky business, however thats why I try and atleast cause a wound or two before charging. 

If I can't get the HQ Combo to work I would use mobile melta to soften him up and if worst comes to worst charge with the DC or VETs wielding a Thammer to knock his INT down a peg or two. Make sure Corbulo is in range of those VETs to give them FC, Str 5 PWs are pretty ugly. 

Those are my thoughts with a specific army. Hope this helps you BA players, good luck.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Heavy stubbers always seem to be the one that kills the daemon prince. Let's say a Leman Russ is firing at a daemon prince. Next turn, it suffers a "Armament Destroyed." Your opponent takes out the battle cannon. next turn, he takes out the lascannon. Then the next 2 turns he takes out the heavy bolters. But, all this time that heavy stubber has been sat at the top going BADADADA at that daemon prince. Odds are that 18 str 4 AP 6 shots are at least going to give that daemon prince a headache.


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## bobinatorect (Nov 24, 2007)

Well take some advice from a user of the big nasty beasts. I personally use the Tzeentch Daemon Prince with Wings Warptime and Wind of Chaos in almost every game I play. This is a little expensive running at 205 points, but I find he pays for himself about 90% of the time. Even though my big fun friend pays for himself I find he dies about 95% of the time. He is always the favored target in my army. (I thought about painting him in a Bullseye pattern.) 

Now most of the comments so far have been talking about putting big heavy shots into a Daemon Prince with weapons such as Lascannons and Multi-meltas. Well I have to tell you from experience (at least the Tzeentch experience) that the Daemon Prince will win that encounter every time. Thousand sons are the same way. I always find my opponent firing his most powerful weapons at my Tzeentch troops and Daemon Princes, to which I always sit there thinking to myself that my opponent must either be ignorant of the power of the mighty 4+ invulnerable save, or he is just loony. Think if you play space marines actually how many Lascannons it will statistically take to kill a Daemon Prince (at least a Tzeentch one). Firstly he has a 4+ invulnerable save which means you will statistically have to wound him 8 times for him to die. Now that does not mean you only need 8 Lascannons (and for anyone that plays space marines you know how expensive even 8 Lascannons can be, even missiles which do the same thing are still expensive. I am just using the Lascannon reference because most vehicles can not take missiles but can take Lascannons). Now a Space Marine player knows that you hit on a 3+ which means you hit 2/3 of the time, and a Lascannon wounds on a 2+ which works 5/6 of the time. Now if you do the calculation that means 55.5% of your Lascannon shots will actually cause a wound on a Daemon Prince. Now since the save of a Daemon Prince (Tzeentch) is 50% that takes your 55.5% chance of wounding the Prince down to a mere 27.75%. Thats about a 1 in 4 Lascannnon shots are actually going to take a wound off of him. So statistically if you want a kill, you have to fire 15-16 Lascannon shots into him just to drop the 1 Daemon Prince, and remember this is with the mighty BS of 4 with a strength 9 weapon. If you are a guard player you need even more Lascannons. 

Honestly who builds their army with 16 Lascannons? If you say that you do you must love guns or are playing an insane amount of points. All of that firepower is wasted anyway because if you are playing any type of fair game, there is going to be some cover for the Daemon Prince to hide behind, so you will not always get to shoot him. Also all of your firepower going into the Daemon Prince is making it so the rest of the Chaos army is untouched, and even though the Berzerkers got screwed in the new codex compared to how they were, a 10 man squad is still 40 WS5 S5 I5 attacks, that will hurt almost anything they decide to attack.

Now if you really want the key to killing a Daemon Prince there are a few ways. Listed in the order of most effective IMO.

1. Rapid fire weapons. It doesn't matter if it is a plasma-gun or a flashlight, if it can wound the Daemon shoot it at him. Even the mighty Daemon Princes find it hard take 100 strength 3 shots. Even though statistically 100 strength 3 shots fired at BS3 will only cause 8-9 wounds, that still will shave off some of his wounds. Then when he only has 1-2 wounds left thats when you fire the "Big Guns." Also I did the calculation for Bolters from Space Marines and they will knock a wound off 3.7% of the time (and that is actually against the Nurgle T6 Daemon Prince). The percentage is 7.4% against the Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne Daemon Prince. Which for the Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Khorne Daemon Prince that is 55 Bolter shots to kill him. 

2. Resilience. I personally find that my Thousand sons can stand up to all sorts of powerful foes in close combat. The reason is that they have amazing invulnerable saves. So if you really want to throw a Daemon Prince off his game, throw the most durable thing in your army against him (NOT VEHICLES!). Really anything with an invulnerable save will do the trick, as long as your guys will survive a few turns it is a win against the Daemon Prince even if they don't kill him. Also try to have that unit be fearless so they don't get Swept away by the advancing Daemon Prince.

3. Monstrous Creatures. If you have Monstrous Creatures of your own they do wonders against the Daemon Prince. However you must be prepared to lose your guy too. They usually end up killing each other. Oh and if you play Eldar throw a Wraithlord at him. He will need 6's to wound, and that makes it nearly impossible to kill the Wraithlord in 1 or sometimes even 2 turns. Yes this is like #2 but the Monstrous creature has a good chance of killing the Daemon Prince by itself with only a few attacks compared to a full squad of guys.

4. Swarms. Well what can you say about the classic other than you are going to lose a bunch of guys, but eventually you will kill it. Just hope that the other Chaos don't come help out their fearless leader, because then you will just lose a bunch of guys.

5. Balls. Take it like a man and just attack. Hey even though your Fire warriors completely blow in Close Combat it is statistically possible to hurt him. I know from experience that even Eldar Warp Spiders in Close Combat can hurt Daemons. Just ask my Greater Daemon that got killed by 4 Warp Spiders.... in Close Combat!

6. And lastly I will put in, "Just shooting him with all your Big guns," but I do say again, this, in my experience, is the worst way of taking down a Daemon Prince because it is not at all cost effective and you rarely even have the firepower to actually accomplish this anyway before he gets to you, and again if you do have the shots to do this you will probably still have to deal with the rest of the Chaos army which is often nothing to laugh at.

Hope this helps anyone that has to face one of these beasts. 

And remember "Statistics are often cruel and unusual, but they are rarely wrong."


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

If, like me, you play Black Templars, then you have a compulsory pal who's almost purpose-built for the job. Like their forefather Sigismund, the Emperor's Champion is very good at dealing with Daemon Princes. S6 with the BLack Sword means that you wound on 3+ most of the time, 4+ against Nurgle, and they only get their crappy Inv. save. WS is high enough that both get 4+ to hit against each other. Equal initiative means that they strike simultaneously, and if they're using Slaanesh, well, you can take Suffer to wound on 2+. You've also got his 4+ Inv. save, which is usually enough to keep you safe if you've got a friendly unit around you. Because the DP is fearless and so are you, it can only escape by being killed, or somehow beating the EC and his whole unit.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Fighting a DP is dependent on what mark and powers it takes. If it's nurgle, hit it with anti-tank weaponry or better yet, plasma weaponry and laugh at it's 5++ save. If it's tzeentch, throw autocannons, multilasers, and plasma at it, as the 3+ save is not good enough to deal with the volume. If it's khorne or slaanesh you can toss any of the above weapons at it effectively. Anything with 5-7 strength and a high volume of fire will be effective against any DP though. However, your anti-tank should probably be directed somewhere else if you get first turn since the DP is only really effective short range, depending on if it has wings, if it's close to you, and if it has lash.

DPs are most effective at short range whether it's in CC, or with it's template weapon, or whatever, so use this to your advantage. They will come to you, so set a trap for them. If the DP wants to template your infantry, move within 20" or so and space out your models so that he can fly up but not get many in the template. Then you can shoot, charge, and seal the deal.

I've fought many DPs with my orks, and the usual solution is to powerklaw them to death after shooting them with loads of str 5 weaponry or str 7 weaponry. However, I've even taken them out handily with a shoota mob. Sure a shoota only wounds on a 6 (with his gun or in cc) but on average 20 hits from shooting will get a wound through and 40ish hits in CC will get some more. Fairly frequently the boys kill the DP before the powerklaw even gets to go. The DP in turn is killing a handful of 6pt models.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Ratling Snipers in a building...
Anything with an Assault Cannon.
Lots of Lasguns.


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

I play Eldar, and fight against a Tzeentch DP

High power shots are worthless, lascannons against him are a waste. I pump some scatter laser shots or shuriken cannon shots into him and wait for him to fail armor saves. 6 strength weapons work fine against 5 toughness.

What I like most is shooting him with my Pathfinders. Last night 5 Pathfinders caused 2 wounds in 1 round of shooting. I then charged him with harelequins, easily killing him on rends alone.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

What would you say is the scariest DP to go against? I think a Tzeentch prince with wings is about as wicked as it gets. Better invul save and the ability to use two powers at once...Warptime and Winds of Chaos is a freaking sick combination, followed by a nice lethal charge.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Well playing a nurgle daemon prince, i can honestly say what has brought me down the most.... An ork charge with a warboss, complete with powerclaws and choppaz. Lethal.


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

my 30 Boyz find no target A threat, last night a Wraithlord charged my 11 Stormboyz in cover, he got a few , i got 2 wounds with powerklaw, next round, I took another wound, he won combat tho, and I ran, but they got 3 wounds, so next shooting phase i gunned him down with lootas......In the end I win.....

a demon Prince is easy, just charge.....Waaaaagh!


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## Lore-Colten (Mar 28, 2008)

well,... if you where devoted to the god of pleasure, you could pump 30+ shots in from 10 models, 20 hit, 3 (4) wound, 2 wounds ftw!

my friend (whos play ig) pumped his entire firing line into a single dp, where talking 60+ lasgun shots, 5 heavy bolters, 4 plasma guns (two killed there owners) 2 lascanons, and a few ratlings to boot.

o boy, its nothing more satisfying the passing 4 5+ saves, with 1 wound

just pump lead into it, itll die eventually, and its none immortal, you pathetic loyalist scam have force weapons, yes?


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## striking scorpion (Nov 11, 2007)

vaz has a good idea


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Force weapons are a useful option, but it's also a good way to get your librarian killed for his troubles. Initiative 5 (6 for slaanesh) means he hits at the same time as your librarian. high strength and ignoring armor saves means it's quite likely that you will kill the DP only to have your librarian cut down in return.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The usual Chaplain led Assault Squad should do fairly well against a Daemon Prince, especially if they're equipped with plasma pistols. You'll likely be able to remove a wound or two from shooting and with the Chaplain's _Litanies of Hate_ the Veteran Sergeant with a power fist shouldn't have much trouble polishing off the remaining wounds. The only time I wouldn't suggest this is if the Prince has the Warptime psychic power as he'll easily shred almost any number of Assault Marines before they get to strike, leaving the power fist out of range and unable to help.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Warptime is scary, practically mandatory on a DP these days


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Yup... really makes up for having so few attacks... but then again, so does Lash... Anything that helps to get him into combat before getting shot down, or that helps him chew through bad(good) guys once he gets there. Nasty bit of work, and very reasonable cost, too.


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## Sniper (Mar 9, 2008)

An Inquisitor Lord with Hammerhand, a stormshield, Grimore of true names and a Daemon Hammer with a retinue of 3 weapon servitors w/ powerfists, a hierophant, an alcolyte w/ a storm shield and a familliar. This let's your Inquisitor fight in initive order (with +1 to his own) while his opponent has half initive and -1 I as well combine this with 3 power fists and the abillity for the Human to stay in the fight more than one turn should win out:victory:

Sniper


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## d'hargetezan (Mar 1, 2008)

In my experience, my princes go down with lots and lots of bullets flying at them. Unfourtionately for my oponent, that leaves the rest of my army for them to deal with as it usually takes two turns to bring it down.


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## Apoctis (Feb 14, 2008)

Pariah and heavy destroyers this should quiet the deamons enough and where are the deamon kings


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## Moschaboy (Jan 5, 2007)

pariah move 6" a regular daemon prince moves 12". so he can choose when to attack your pariah and wih warptime he'll wait untill they are down to 5 or so models, then charge, killing of the pariah in the kill zone and in your turn kills the remaining pariah that piled in. heavy destroyers are a possibility, but a squad of them cost almost as much as a prince and will likely need 3 or 4 rounds of shooting at it (if its tzeentch). so i'd suggest normal destoyers, immortals or just warrior gauss flayer spam. 

seriously: go for the armor save, 3+ isn't really that big and t5 isn't that great either. i'd suggest using heavy bolters and auto cannons against it. heavy bolters become kind of ineffective against the nurgle prince but then it has only a 5++ save so then use missle launchers. the last thing i'd do would be wasting ap 2 shots on it, cause you'll need them to kill off all those terminators dropping in your lines...


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## Silb (Jan 28, 2008)

Why don't you use one of the units from the previous versus threads? How would a monolith, a death company, or eldrad ulthran (maybe with mind war?) do against a daemon prince?


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## CyDoN (Dec 21, 2007)

I almost all times use 2 deamon princes no matter the game points. They are tough, but not as much as you think, I think a skimmer is tougher than a Deamon Prince. What I think the best things you can do about him are:

1st. Keep him busy, just send masses to him, you will eventualy kill him.

2nd. If you really want to kill him dont use heavy weapons of high strenght, use mass fire on him, the best weapon to do that are sniper rifles, they WILL score hits on him than any other weapon will. If you dont use SF just use the largest most useless unit to shoot him. Scoring many hits on him means that he will have to roll many dice to save. If you fire just few heavy weapons you count more on luck that you will succed all the hits you need and then hope that he wont save them.

3rd. "Ok we got him" i shot all my heavys on them and he is dead it took 2 turns but hes finnaly gone! "Hmm... theres one more and the berserkers are close plus the death guard are on the objective!"

4th As someone above said the best way to keep the prince busy are Inv save units or fearless as they have to be killed to the last before he gets loose again

What i still think is that you have to deal with the units that can be actually be killed and fall back than deal with this beast. Most CSM players use to field 2 Deamon Princes as they worth all their money. What my Tau and Eldar player are afraid most in every game we play is them, they end up firing allmost everything on him and when the berserkers are close they just get dissapointed that they let em come. 

Kill what you cant and just keep the Deamons busy, thats what i would suggest


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

bobinatorect said:


> And remember "Statistics are often cruel and unusual, but they are rarely wrong."


Ah, but remember this! '95% of all statistics are bullsh*t'. Just kiddin' around. I'll remember that advice if a Demon Prince comes knocking at my door. Thanks for the advice.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

daemon princes are rather easy to kill, they are monstrous, which means thqat they cannot use terrain as effectively, so whatever you hit them with is more likely to stick. they are fearless, so bogging them down with cheap expendables is still effective. 

As for weapons, I think that using your biggest heavy weapons might not be the trick. An autocannon has 2 shots, at s7, which means it has a good chance of wounding, with a reasonable chance of causing 2 from a single weapon. this means that a single havoc squad, for example can potentially destroy a daemon prince in a single turn. this means that the rest of your heavy and special weapons can focus on the rest.

Another tack is to kill everything else, and leave the daemonic bugger alone. The daemon prince can't do much if it is by itself. If your opponent uses another squad to "guard" the daemon prince, punish them, use ANY and ALL ordinance to slam on them that turn, this give you a two for one special.

Hope this is helpful, and inspires other tactics.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

It's easier to see them and they have a 60mm base.these things can make a lot of differance. Firstly, because you should measure from base-to-base or hull-to-base, then that essentially means you've got a bit more range compared to, say, a Chaos Marine.
Next, you can see them easier, i.e. a wall where you can't see marines behind, you can see him. A good way to exploit these things is Plasma Cannons. due to the new rules, you don't have to roll to hit, and because of that big base, there's a better chance of hitting him if it scatters. Also, the Ap is going to do something.


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## AnubisBlade (Aug 5, 2008)

i found eziekieal a interigator chaplin and a tech marine with 3 servitors and the DP just don'e live long ... force weapon will remove him if ya get the wound so make sure ya get in as many hits as ya can ie chaplain litanies of hate. the servitors count as having close combat weapons so they are just fodder unless ya have the chance to sit still for a turn and (provided ya make em into gun servos instead of tech) let rip with 3 heavy bolters a master crafted plasma pistol and a hand held plasma pistol off tech marine plasma pistol on chapie and the flamer of doom from eziekieal (2d6 -2 str d6 ap flamer template) if your dice are nice to ya then he gets alot of stuff he has to do inv saves agains and in my experience they can't make all those different saves consistantly and add to it if ya don't fire the h-bolters ya get to still assault in and beat him down with 3 models with power weapons with 4 to 3 attacks base each (in my case it was 15 power weapon attacks on the charge re-roll misses and if eziekieal wounded and made the LD test (provided ya didn't use psysics in the shooting faze) ya get to send him back to the warp ... not insta death just remove from game special effect of force weapons


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