# the other two founding chapters



## TheCoshMan (Apr 25, 2008)

if you look at the table that lists the orignal first founding SM, their are two that are never shown. 

Has any one any idea sho they are ment to be? or has GW always kept them a perfect secret by not actaully creating any info.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

yeah they have always been left out for some reason. they were mentioned very briefly in the short story the lightening tower. something about seperate tragedies that the other traitors should have realised. sounds like a supurb set of stories which we will never hear.


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## hawkwing (Jan 12, 2008)

They say intentional to allow gamers to create their own fluff and chapter


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## Insanity101 (Jan 13, 2008)

There has always been those two spots open for interpretation as the "lost primarchs", though there has been some argument that Sigmar from Fantasy is one of the lost primarchs.


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

I read somewhere that one of the missing primarchs was in command of the Iron Hearts Legion but I cant for the life of me remember where?


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

godofwar said:


> I read somewhere that one of the missing primarchs was in command of the Iron Hearts Legion but I cant for the life of me remember where?


Do you mean the Iron Hand the 10th legion whos primarch is Ferrus Manus, or are you saying that either the unown 2nd or 11th legion also have the name Iron in it?


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

Not the Iron Hands no! The Irons Hearts where either the 2nd or 11th chapter. But as I've said I can't remember where I saw it?


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

It could be a legion someone else made up, its just odd that GW would make 3 legions with Iron in it (Iron Hand, Iron Warriors and Iron Hearts) but its great that someones found a possible lead :good: nice one!


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

It was in a GW book I think and it mentioned something about a primarch of the Iron Hearts? I will rack my brain to see if I can remember where I saw it


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

Primarch Rubinek of the Iron hearts was mentioned in a short story called Hell in a Bottle by Simon Jowet. But there other references at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions but no concrete proof.

Hope it helps...


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

godofwar said:


> Primarch Rubinek of the Iron hearts was mentioned in a short story called Hell in a Bottle by Simon Jowet. But there other references at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions but no concrete proof.
> 
> Hope it helps...


If you read that little bit at the end of the paragraph, says "Some authors seem to occasionally confuse the Chapter Masters with the Primarchs and Rubinek was most likely such a case." But its still the closes thing we'vehear of yet.


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## TheCoshMan (Apr 25, 2008)

hmm... it definutly seems very vauge...

There was the apparent 'vision' by horus that saw him punching the 11th incubation tank the primaches where made in. Obivusly though, horus could not of done this as he too would have been in one of the tanks. Maybe some one had some how managed to 'damage' the 2nd and 11th primarch.

The grey knights say that their geene seed is of secret origen... so maybe one of the primaches that had very pronounced psychic thus the grey knights do. although it is said already that it could be the emprorer him self who provided the gene seed.

I was thinking that it could have something to do with the legion of the damned... but after looking into, i doubt it. though I do now want to make some super sexy LotD models *druels*


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

Wel the LotD were origanally th Fire Hawks who got lost i te warp and beame a ghot chapter. The GKs were part of the 2nd founding and are thoht to be made from a number of loyal marines Geneseeds mixed together but this can't be proven yet. Th LotD figs are increadible cool and I'd collect them if here was a plstic sprue for them or if I wa any good at big conversions


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

CallumM27 said:


> If you read that little bit at the end of the paragraph, says "Some authors seem to occasionally confuse the Chapter Masters with the Primarchs and Rubinek was most likely such a case." But its still the closes thing we'vehear of yet.


I didn't say it was set in concrete!


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## captin tom (May 5, 2008)

one thery going round here is that the empor sent them off to deal with the tyranids before the came to this galaxy but on the way there one fell to chaos and both legions destroyed them selfs in the fighting that folowed


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## The Lions Sword (May 16, 2008)

If you read through the first portion of that link it brings up a name that isn't associated with any known chapter, Konrad Curze. Which then brings into question of which legion is he the primarch of, the 2nd or the 11th. I also have seen this name in another article somewhere but it also only mentions that he sided with Horus during the rebellion.


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter of the Night Lords?


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Yeah, Curze was the Primarch of the Night Lords. He's dead, though, if I remember correctly.

I always assumed that the two missing chapters were for these purposes: one for Sigmar, and one for people to make up their own legion and make up fluff for it being an original founding legion.


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## godofwar (Mar 23, 2008)

Gul Torgo said:


> Yeah, Curze was the Primarch of the Night Lords. He's dead, though, if I remember correctly.


Curze could see into the future and knew an assassin was sent to kill him and for reason only Curze knew he let the assassin kill him?


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

captin tom said:


> one thery going round here is that the empor sent them off to deal with the tyranids before the came to this galaxy but on the way there one fell to chaos and both legions destroyed them selfs in the fighting that folowed


That sounds cool. I think that would make a pretty interesting story. Does anyone else hate GW's tendancy to be ambiguous for the sake of ambiguity? It would be one thing if we would eventually here what happened to these primarchs/legions but we probably never will.


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## Lord Khorne (May 6, 2008)

Could have been Omegon if he and Alpharius are seperate people.


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## The Lions Sword (May 16, 2008)

Omegon and Aplharius are Alpha Legion. They are considered an equal half each of the Primarch for Aplha Legion. Only Aplharius is the face that people see. Personally i think the secret of them twins is a genious idea. Think about how much terror that would spread if it seemed like Alpharius is in twice places at once. Which leads you straight into the Alpha Legions whole strategy of warfare.


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## LoreMaster (May 20, 2008)

godofwar said:


> Curze could see into the future and knew an assassin was sent to kill him and for reason only Curze knew he let the assassin kill him?


The Night Haunters assassination was never actually confirmed the vid feed cuts out as the assassin M'shen is mid leap at him in his chair, another example of GW playing the well he might be dead card but he might appear later on like the majority of the other "dead" primarchs.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Is it possible that the missing primarchs are just that, missing? Perhaps the emperor never found them, or they died after being scattered. Who says that they had to land on a planet, one could have landed on a star. Do we know for sure that the emperor found them, and that they took place in some capacity during the Horus Heresy?


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

I think that one of this chapters is the Blood Ravens Chapter.
In the Dark Crusade campaign, captain Thule of the Blood Ravens says: "For the Emperor, and the unknown Primarch!"

The other is supposed to be completely destroyed, maybe a mutation of the primarch caused by the Chaos Gods...


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## Maggard (May 20, 2008)

GW explained that away as the Blood Ravens as having lost their history somehow (i forget the details) but probably a blood angels diriviative or soemthing rather than them being the 2nd or 11th legion


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Iron Within said:


> Is it possible that the missing primarchs are just that, missing? Perhaps the emperor never found them, or they died after being scattered. Who says that they had to land on a planet, one could have landed on a star. Do we know for sure that the emperor found them, and that they took place in some capacity during the Horus Heresy?


We know that all 20 Primarchs were found during the Crusades, Fought in the Crusade and believed in the ideal of the Crusades. This has been confirmed in several places and has never been disputed. 

What we don't know, is what happened after that. The Heresy discussed the Empire splitting in half. So either they were both gone prior to that to keep the Math accurate, or the two sided on both sides and were removed sometime after the Heresy, again to keep the Math accurate.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Revelations said:


> We know that all 20 Primarchs were found during the Crusades, Fought in the Crusade and believed in the ideal of the Crusades. This has been confirmed in several places and has never been disputed.
> 
> What we don't know, is what happened after that. The Heresy discussed the Empire splitting in half. So either they were both gone prior to that to keep the Math accurate, or the two sided on both sides and were removed sometime after the Heresy, again to keep the Math accurate.


Oh ok. I didn't know if we knew for sure that they took part in the events surrounding the Horus Heresy.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Hmmm... here's my take on the maths:

9 chaos legions we know about;
*8* loyal legions we know about;
Dark Angels, half-and-half...

So one and a half lost loyal legions, half a lost chaos legion.

Special pleading perhaps?

On the Blood Ravens... _no they aren't_, because 1 - the Blood Ravens were only invented about 5 years ago; 2 - the Blood Ravens are descended from the *RECORDS REMOVED BY THE INQUISITION*. I suggest that anyone who wants to know about their history should consult the sections of the site on GW fiction, or search for threads on "Blood Ravens".

h well at least no-one mentioned Roman Legions cyclops:


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## Holyboltshells (May 22, 2008)

Revelations said:


> We know that all 20 Primarchs were found during the Crusades, Fought in the Crusade and believed in the ideal of the Crusades. This has been confirmed in several places and has never been disputed.
> 
> What we don't know, is what happened after that. The Heresy discussed the Empire splitting in half. So either they were both gone prior to that to keep the Math accurate, or the two sided on both sides and were removed sometime after the Heresy, again to keep the Math accurate.


Hold on were all 20 found? I was under the impression that the 2 and 11 was never found hence why they are the missing legion, could you post some sources?
The Rubinek thing sounds like a screw up by an author.

Sigmar being a primarch is old fluff i believe, going with the idea that the Warhammer world was a world trapped by warp storms or some such. Generally not supported any more.

Ive always been under the impression that the other two Legions were kept quite to allow charachters to create their own legions.


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## Baradur (Aug 14, 2008)

Its been said somewhere that all 20 legion Primarchs were found and lead their legions.
Though Horus's encounter with the 11ths capsule made me think that the child died when it crashed on whatever planet it wound up on.
And data refering to the 2nd and 11ths chapters were erased by an unknown authority.
Apparantly Gw is not going to give any information away on either, which I think is a shame =[ Would be cool to know about all 20.
I remember reading that in The Lightening Tower short story its mentioned that the fates of the 2nd and 11th are best forgotten, which would be an awsome read, say if the writer somehow eluded what chapter the marines you followed through the book was hidden from you until the very end.

But yeah.. incase anyone with the ability to sway Gw happens across this post..
please for the love of god reveal them!


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## NeckbeardEpidemic (Aug 4, 2008)

Iron Within said:


> Does anyone else hate GW's tendancy to be ambiguous for the sake of ambiguity? It would be one thing if we would eventually here what happened to these primarchs/legions but we probably never will.


I completely agree. How almost every primarch has some loophole where they might still be alive. Some of the loyalist ones have ventured into the warp. It is almost ridiculous when you think about it, the fact that the most important people in the 40k universe are surrounded by ambiguity.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i had a chat with a GW worker and he told me that they will actually metion or reveal one of the primarchs, either in the HH novels or in a individual one

thing is he doesnt know when


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

aw sheet. i dont like the ambiguity either, it really leaves me hanging. i like the idea about the tyranids though, it seems very plausable seeing as how the emp was all knowing and the like. my theory is that somehow both came into conflict with each other and they almost completely destroyed each other. at the time the horus heresy hadnt happened so two legions turning against each other would be a tragedy that the Emperor would want to cover up quickly. OR seeing as how in the ligtning tower it states they are seperate tragedies, maybe both legions were completely destroyed against some army? one orks and the other eldar? or some other combo, i dont know. i just want to know who they are.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

the rest of the article states:
"Primarch Rubineck is not mentioned anywhere else. Some authors seem to occasionally confuse the Chapter Masters with the Primarchs and Rubinek was most likely such a case."
unfortunately, much of the fluff before aprox. 1995 can be confusing, as it has many terms being used incorectly.


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## Lioneljohnson510 (May 28, 2008)

I know one of them in the new codex it is the fire hawks there chapter was destroyed and were belived to be the legion of the dammed but the primarchs are not named


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

Lioneljohnson510 said:


> I know one of them in the new codex it is the fire hawks there chapter was destroyed and were belived to be the legion of the dammed but the primarchs are not named


weren't the Fire Hawks the Cursed Twenty-First founding, therefore not a founding legion???


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## Lioneljohnson510 (May 28, 2008)

u know i really dont know ill have to check that


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

Lioneljohnson510 said:


> u know i really dont know ill have to check that


yeah, I'm almost positive there a cursed twenty-first chapter...along with the Flame Falcons and the Minotaurs. I'm 90% sure....ruling them both out as missing legions.....


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## Lioneljohnson510 (May 28, 2008)

oh well thank you for correcting me


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

you can find some of this random stuff on Lexanicum.....I used to think they were the missing legion too.....so you don't owe me any thanks haha, I just wanted to be informative.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

when the Gw books said that both primarchs had tradigies doesnt mean the were both killed.

like one of them could have gone crazy (which would be cool)
one could have turned out half woman...half man, now thats a tradigy. ouch the emperor must have beaten the primarch to death with his own hands for that


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## Brother Hunter (Oct 15, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> when the Gw books said that both primarchs had tradigies doesnt mean the were both killed.
> 
> like one of them could have gone crazy (which would be cool)
> one could have turned out half woman...half man, now thats a tradigy. ouch the emperor must have beaten the primarch to death with his own hands for that


whats your obsession with a hermaphroditic primarch??


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

a good guess is that they turned chaos but then uterly annilated and erased from history. it could have been the gods first atempt at distroying the imperium.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Brother Hunter said:


> whats your obsession with a hermaphroditic primarch??



nothing i just think that would be a tradegy, im not obssesed with it?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

@Ferrus Mannus, It's tragedy, not tradegy or tradigy.

@Kendares. It's a possibility, but from the tone of the paragraph in the Lightning Tower that mentions the 2 primarchs statues, it doesn't seem so. They suffered seperate tragedies, not betrayal. Dorn seems sad, not angry as he would be if they had turned traitor. It seems in the story they disappeared long before the Heresy.


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