# the two missing primarchs



## uriel ventures

this is my first thread so it might not be good

everyones wondering this?

who are the two missing primarchs.
there is many ideas about how this happened. my thought on the matter is this, we all know about the twenty primarchs being created on terra, when the four chaos gods combined there powers and sent the twenty primarchs across the universe, i was thinking what if two of the primarchs were killed by this or were they the only two which had been captured by the chaos gods before the god of mankind found them again? it could also be that two never where sent across the universe but they were created in secret after the first incident and they became demon hunter primarch and this could be a possiblility the adaptus custodies primarch? what do you think?

there could have also been a different matter. what if the lat primarch was a woman?

would that explain the with hunters? 

you got to think. there better than normal imperial gaurd and they have bolters and power armour? could there have been a female legion??? but on a weaker level


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## general

Mate, this belongs in the 40K fluff section.

I like the custodes idea and witch hunters. However, I'm no expert on fluff so have no idea what the accepted view is.


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## comrade

No. Adeptus Custodes is Out of the Question.

Custodes Are not Marines, they Are Genetically Enhanced humans, yes sounds weird, but they are superior to Marines, Marines we're created because the Custodes Process is long, and is not very Time Efficient. And They number 10,000. Not 1000, 10,000.

(Proof: Horus Heresy Novel, 1000 Custodes went to war on another planet in the Stead of the Emperor, now you dont think they would leave Terra and the Emperor alone do you? and the 10000 Blades await my call to arms statement made by the Emperor in Reference to the Custode Guard)

Alas it is also Rumored that the Custodes never Age. The only way they die is in Battle, or some other grievous nasty way, They are also Immune to the Warp. Rumors say they were Originally the Men who were with the Emperor when he took Terra.

Sisters of Battle? Impossible. The gene Seed therapy is non-compatible with women, and SoBs also dont get the Black Carapace. They can not be marines, they are more like standard humans in Power Armor, that is why my SoBs are actually Represented by a Cross SM and IG mix. ( I call them House Troopers)


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## Druchii in Space

My only view on this, is something drastic must have happened, as the Marines would have been created and waiting for their Primarch. I'm not sure of GW will ever spill the beans on those two, hell I don't know if GW know themselves what happened to those two. 
Regardless, the key thing is that two Chapters where wiped out, before or after the Primarchs where found? Likely before, as they're has been no reference about them, and none of the other Primarchs have even shown a hint of knowing about them.

I'm convinced something was wrong with them from the start, maybe a genetic instability that forced the Emperor to destroy the Marines of both Chapters. Did he then kill the two Primarchs when he found them, or where they never found? 

I hope if GW was to ever close its doors they'd do a final release or a developer comes clean on a forum explaining these kind of things. Of course perhaps one of the Horus Heresy books will do it for us before the series finishes.


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## killmaimburn

Well I can tell you for a fact that the grey knights were not created until the second founding. GW has said that these two legions are for people to invent their own founding legion.


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## Red Orc

comrade said:


> ...
> Custodes Are not Marines, they Are Genetically Enhanced humans, yes sounds weird, but they are superior to Marines, Marines we're created because the Custodes Process is long, and is not very Time Efficient. And They number 10,000. Not 1000, 10,000...


No one mentioned marines; the original 20 Primarchs do not all have to have identical Legions made from them; and the original Legions numbered many more than 1,000, so the numbers argument is meaningless. The _best_ argument against either Legio II or Legio XI being the Custodes would be that the Custodes pre-existed the SM Legions, and if they were created using the same (set of) process, would probably be listed "I".



comrade said:


> ... Sisters of Battle? Impossible. The gene Seed therapy is non-compatible with women, and SoBs also dont get the Black Carapace. They can not be marines, they are more like standard humans in Power Armor, that is why my SoBs are actually Represented by a Cross SM and IG mix. ( I call them House Troopers)


"The" gene seed therapy? "The incompatible geneseed therapy for creating non-female marines is not compatible with creating female marines" is all you're saying. It doesn't mean there couldn't have been a _different_ set of geneseed therapies for a female Legion. Again, the best argument is timing; we know that the Sisters weren't created until long after the Heresy.

:trying to get it straight cyclops:


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## killmaimburn

The geneseed is derived from the emperor and the primarchs, so it is incompatible with females, it only works on male bodies.


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## xX LUP3RCAL Xx

*Spoiler for those reading "Legion" Horus Heresy novel*

One of the missing primarchs could have Alpharius's twin/other half - See the Horus Heresy novel "Legion" for more info.


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## comrade

Red Orc said:


> No one mentioned marines; the original 20 Primarchs do not all have to have identical Legions made from them; and the original Legions numbered many more than 1,000, so the numbers argument is meaningless. The _best_ argument against either Legio II or Legio XI being the Custodes would be that the Custodes pre-existed the SM Legions, and if they were created using the same (set of) process, would probably be listed "I".


Wait, I was Almost sure that all the Primarchs we're created for the primary use of leading the Legions using the Primarchs Gene Seed.

Custodes don't use the Gene Seed, they Are closer to Human then Marines are (Or shall we say the ones who we're created using the gene-seed?)

And yes I know that the Original Legions Numbered in the 10,000 each range. They only Split up because of the Index Astartes ( Or whatever its called, I've played Guard for 10 years, I can't remember what the SM thing is) after the Horus Heresy (The split was opposed by the Imperial Fists, The Space Wolves, and another one I can't remember.)




> "The" gene seed therapy? "The incompatible geneseed therapy for creating non-female marines is not compatible with creating female marines" is all you're saying. It doesn't mean there couldn't have been a _different_ set of geneseed therapies for a female Legion. Again, the best argument is timing; we know that the Sisters weren't created until long after the Heresy.


What I am saying according to all the fluff I have read is that currentlly it states that Gene Seed Therapy is _Incompatible _ with the Female genes.

Yes, the sisters of Battle we're created long after the Heresy, but how about the Sisters of Silence, the Pre-cursors of the Brides of the Emperor (I think thats what they we're called)

-Comrade, now trying to figure out what you we're trying to say.

on a side note: In my very distant and increasing Delusional mind, I seem to remember Faintly the Reason for the 2 Blank Legions was because of a issue with the Original person who wrote the back story left GW right before RT was released, leading to a copyright Issue, or something along those lines. Thus GW left them blank.


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## Absolon

Fluff wise the two missing legions have never had a primarch identified. The only confirmed sighting in official fluff is in one of Horus's vision in the Heresy novels.

On the non fluff side GW many years ago alternated between two different explanations for the two missing legions. The first was to allow room for the DIY chapters for players to create. The second explanation and the one I like is that the two missing legions were to represent the two lost Roman legions.


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## GundamMerc

Absolon said:


> The only confirmed sighting in official fluff is in one of Horus's vision in the Heresy novels.
> 
> 
> 
> to expand on this, the vision is of horus traveling back in time (this is all relatively speaking, my memory on it isnt too good) to when the primarchs were created and he killed at least one (or at least it alludes to this, maybe) and (this part is pure guess for me, check me on this one and see if its right) scattered the rest throughout the galaxy
> 
> another theory that could tie into this one is that sigmar from the warhammer fantasy universe could be one of the primarchs since his arrival coincided with a bright meteor falling from the sky or something like that
> 
> this is all unofficial second and third hand reporting on my part, so it could all be terribly wrong, so make sure u check it for urself before u listen to what i say :grin:
Click to expand...


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## effigy22

Aplarius is Primarch, Omegon is not. But as described in the legion book they are 1 Primarch in 2 bodies. (Just commenting back on the post earlier).

I like to think that the 2 missing primarch's are still out there just to be on topic


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## Khorne's Fist

GundamMerc said:


> another theory that could tie into this one is that sigmar from the warhammer fantasy universe could be one of the primarchs since his arrival coincided with a bright meteor falling from the sky or something like that


This has been completely discounted by GW. The WFB and 40k universes are completely seperate. Sigmar is _*not*_ one of the lost Primarchs.

The two missing primarchs are mentioned in the short story The Lightning Tower, were Dorn looks at 20 plinths were the statues of the Primarchs are, but that there were 2 missing and they suffered seperate tragedies. That's the most GW have ever mentioned them.


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## effigy22

True GW have stated that WFB and WH40K systems are seperate, but they havent always been, and it seems that they steadily getting a stronger link to each other.

But if sigmar was a primarch, it would explain alot of the animosity between sigmar and ulric besides the background already given  . (Ulric being rumoured that its actually Russ)


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## Khorne's Fist

effigy22 said:


> But if sigmar was a primarch, it would explain alot of the animosity between sigmar and ulric besides the background already given  . (Ulric being rumoured that its actually Russ)


Sorry mate, but that's just ridiculous, and anyone who gives it any credit doesn't know a thing about Russ's fluff. That's just some geek looking far too deeply into the history of toy soldiers and coming to a conclusion that he likes. Anyone else that gives it credence really needs to question their own knowledge of WFB and 40k background.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this crops up on forums every now and then, and despite GW continually and strenuously denying it people still take it seriously.:suicide:


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## Unknown Primarch

i bet what happened was it was gonna be true in the beginning then GW thought it would just complicate things and just retconned it. for me i think its best for sigmar to be seperate to 40k then it can give us a whole load of new fluff when they decide to reveal the lost primarchs to us.


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## effigy22

I play both 40k and WFB, i also GM a WFRP group. You might not thin kthis has anything to do with this but its just some interesting fluff. Did you know there is a Chainsword, Power Armour and the Boltgun in the warhammer world. Gotta wonder where it came from.


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## Lord Reevan

effigy22 said:


> IDid you know there is a Chainsword, Power Armour and the Boltgun in the warhammer world. Gotta wonder where it came from.


Where does it say that?? I've never heard of it.


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## effigy22

Tome of Corruption and other various WFRP Source Books, The High Elves currently have the suit of power armour and the chain sword was lost in the chaos wastes. Cant remember where the boltgun is.


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## Red Orc

Absolon said:


> ... the one I like is that the two missing legions were to represent the two lost Roman legions.


There's no evidence that the two lost 40k Legions (if such there were, because all we know about is 2 lost _Primarchs_, as far as I'm aware) have anything to do with any lost Roman Legions. i presume you're talking about Varus? Or do you mean the IX Hispana? The numbers don't match, there's no story about some Varus fugure taking of two Legions to go and fight Germans or anything, and anyway Varus lost 3 Legions in the Teutoburgerwald. The IX, though Brits like to think it 'disappeared' in Scotland, was in the Netherlands 15 years later and then in the Eastern Empire... What's the connection?

@ Comrade... I don't actually disagree about your main points - that there probably wasn't a female primarch, and that the Custodes came before the Legions. But the evidence you mustered to support your contentions was all flawed. It doesn't prove anything, it isn't even circumstantial. It's just not relevent to anything. 

_If_ there had been a female Primarch, for instance, _then_ a different gene-seed technique would have to have been used, so the inaplicability of _this_ geneseed technique is neither here nor there. It makes as much sense as saying "no aeroplane has been painted, because I own housepaint".

And the numbers argument on the Custodes is about as relevent.

But; I think you're probably right anyway, just not for the reasons you think you are.

@ Lord Reevan... I have rules for boltguns in 2nd Ed WHFB, Amazons had them, they looted them from Slann Transmat Sites (like Eldar Warp Gates) along with other bits of 'old tech'. IIRC, Champions of Chaos used to get plasma pistols as a wargear option, and it's long (since 1987) been suspected that Warriors of Chaos are big and hard and have funky armour because they're Chaos Space Marines.

:still trying to get it staraight cyclops:


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## comrade

meh, just saying what I have read from the Fluff, but both me and you probably know that the Backstory has changed since RT, just Compare the RT rulebook fluff to 5th edition fluff...


I still miss my psychotic Drug Pumped Marines though. lol.

And I'm sticking with my explanation the real reason there is no 2 other legions is due to an argument with the Fluff designer for them leaving right before RT was released, leading to a copyright issue.


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## Lord Reevan

Red Orc said:


> @ Lord Reevan... I have rules for boltguns in 2nd Ed WHFB, Amazons had them, they looted them from Slann Transmat Sites (like Eldar Warp Gates) along with other bits of 'old tech'. IIRC, Champions of Chaos used to get plasma pistols as a wargear option, and it's long (since 1987) been suspected that Warriors of Chaos are big and hard and have funky armour because they're Chaos Space Marines.
> 
> :still trying to get it staraight cyclops:


Okay cool. If I seemed crabby ( I thought I sounded it) I didn't mean to, I just never found that in my fluff expeditions:biggrin:


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## Red Orc

@ Lord Reevan, no, didn't think you sounded crabby, just surprised...

@ Comrade, yes indeed there have been many changes to the fluff over the years, especially as relates to this subject. My first Ultras fluff says that they were a Third Founding chapter later given the Legion number of one of the Traitor Legions, so how that's all supposed to work is anyone's guess.

:glad no-one is getting crabby cyclops:


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## comrade

Red Orc said:


> @ Lord Reevan, no, didn't think you sounded crabby, just surprised...
> 
> @ Comrade, yes indeed there have been many changes to the fluff over the years, especially as relates to this subject. My first Ultras fluff says that they were a Third Founding chapter later given the Legion number of one of the Traitor Legions, so how that's all supposed to work is anyone's guess.
> 
> :glad no-one is getting crabby cyclops:


yes.. it is funny how they then became one of the Original Legions, then the one who created to Codex Astartes (or is it index astartes.. my mind is starting to wander)


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## squeek

Red Orc said:


> @ Comrade, yes indeed there have been many changes to the fluff over the years, especially as relates to this subject. My first Ultras fluff says that they were a Third Founding chapter later given the Legion number of one of the Traitor Legions, so how that's all supposed to work is anyone's guess.





comrade said:


> yes.. it is funny how they then became one of the Original Legions, then the one who created to Codex Astartes (or is it index astartes.. my mind is starting to wander)


The cynic in me thinks that is likely due to their popularity with kids who like blue paint and relatively easy schemes. Way back when it was all Blood Angels this and Dark Angels that, with a smattering of Space Wolves; the stinky Ultras weren't anywhere near as popular with the fluff monkeys and artists at GW. Well that is how I remember it anyway... (note the cunning disclaimer  ).


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## comrade

Black Templars All the way, oh yeah.

Though there codex blows donkey balls.

Ultra-Smurfs popular? huh...? I havent seen an Ultra smurf Army cept in the codex.


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## squeek

They are everywhere where I game, and have been ever since I started playing years ago. They also seem to feature a lot more in artwork and fluff than previously...


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## effigy22

I got another "theory" for the other Primarchs, the guy who come up with it all, thought "20 yes, nice round number and can be split right down the middle" then it came to naming them all and coming up with background, i think he reached 18 (19 if you include Omegon) and then gave up  or he ran out of time before release and thus expunged from all records.


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## Digg40k

I maintain that they wrote in that the two primarch's and their subsequent chapters were expunged from all records because it sounds good.


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## effigy22

Or maybe they didnt want to be masters of war and death, maybe they wanted to be something like poets or artists which disappointed the daddy emperor and so disowned them. :laugh:


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## Red Orc

OMG! Of course - the Galaxy's Most Deadly Hairdresser, and his traitorous brother Primarch, The Overlord of Interior Design!

I'm sorry, I need a lie down...

:still laughing cyclops:


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## uriel ventures

just replying to a few. the grey knights in mention. when you see them i have a wierd felling that they are like a sub chapter of the Custodes. they sort have them same weponary. my thought for this is that the grey knights are like the more active version of the custodes.


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## uriel ventures

also if the two are erased so we can design chapters, surly we can create a primarch to repersent one of the legions?? saying that he might be chaos or dead by now???? thoughts on this


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## uriel ventures

comrade said:


> Wait, I was Almost sure that all the Primarchs we're created for the primary use of leading the Legions using the Primarchs Gene Seed.
> 
> Custodes don't use the Gene Seed, they Are closer to Human then Marines are (Or shall we say the ones who we're created using the gene-seed?)
> 
> And yes I know that the Original Legions Numbered in the 10,000 each range. They only Split up because of the Index Astartes ( Or whatever its called, I've played Guard for 10 years, I can't remember what the SM thing is) after the Horus Heresy (The split was opposed by the Imperial Fists, The Space Wolves, and another one I can't remember.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I am saying according to all the fluff I have read is that currentlly it states that Gene Seed Therapy is _Incompatible _ with the Female genes.
> 
> Yes, the sisters of Battle we're created long after the Heresy, but how about the Sisters of Silence, the Pre-cursors of the Brides of the Emperor (I think thats what they we're called)
> 
> -Comrade, now trying to figure out what you we're trying to say.
> 
> on a side note: In my very distant and increasing Delusional mind, I seem to remember Faintly the Reason for the 2 Blank Legions was because of a issue with the Original person who wrote the back story left GW right before RT was released, leading to a copyright Issue, or something along those lines. Thus GW left them blank.



you have a point to this. because in the horus hersy book : visons of treachery: the big E shown with the custodes on his (his ) right and the sisters of silince on his other. and looking at the weapons and armour i would say they seemed like they have geen seed. maybe it can work on females but there bodies dont grow like male space marines?


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## comrade

uriel ventures said:


> you have a point to this. because in the horus hersy book : visons of treachery: the big E shown with the custodes on his (his ) right and the sisters of silince on his other. and looking at the weapons and armour i would say they seemed like they have geen seed. maybe it can work on females but there bodies dont grow like male space marines?


No no... I was saying that the Custodes are not anything like Marines in any sense.

They are Superior to Marines, They are in all respects Humans, Genetically modified humans beyond a scope that the gene-seed can ever do. Custodes are made from the ground up, while the Gene-seed enhances areas of a human to make them into Marines, and the extra Organs. Custodes are just created Badass. no need for extra organs.

The Gene seed system developed for the Marines was created because the Process used to Create Custodes is a Long and time Consuming system


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## Kendares

I like the idea of GW leaving us with some wiggle room to come up with background fluff for our own legion/chapter and the primarch. You could even make a chaos legion and use a demon prince as your primarch. I thinks they are missing just to let us be creative.


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## Khorne's Fist

Kendares said:


> I like the idea of GW leaving us with some wiggle room to come up with background fluff for our own legion/chapter and the primarch. You could even make a chaos legion and use a demon prince as your primarch. I thinks they are missing just to let us be creative.


I'm not too fond of this theory. Even in Rogue Trader it was stated that there were a thousand chapters, so there was plenty of wiggle room even before they came up with the idea of a set of first founding chapters. Having 2 missing from 20, or getting to choose 1 from 1000? Which gives you more choice?


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## Kendares

I’m just saying I think its cooler this way. Because I could make up my own primarch if I wanted to. You couldn’t really do that if you knew the names of all 20, unless you say like the Emp made a second batch of Primarchs. There probably is a different reason because mine would only allow the explanation for 1 missing legion/primarch. But maybe if you said that Omegon is a missing primarch. Or you could even go for the one that Horus may or may not have killed was one of them as well. Idk I was just saying how I liked being able to name a primarch Steve.:biggrin:


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## Farseer Beltiac

I've written some fluff on a missing primarch and missing legion. It's coming along good so far...it all came to me in a dream so I wrote it all down...never read Legion before bedtime....


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## uriel ventures

Farseer Beltiac said:


> I've written some fluff on a missing primarch and missing legion. It's coming along good so far...it all came to me in a dream so I wrote it all down...never read Legion before bedtime....


i think thta applies to all black libary books reading soul drinker onibus at the mo alway havea dream of being crusehed n sounds kl what your doing


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## uriel ventures

Kendares said:


> I’m just saying I think its cooler this way. Because I could make up my own primarch if I wanted to. You couldn’t really do that if you knew the names of all 20, unless you say like the Emp made a second batch of Primarchs. There probably is a different reason because mine would only allow the explanation for 1 missing legion/primarch. But maybe if you said that Omegon is a missing primarch. Or you could even go for the one that Horus may or may not have killed was one of them as well. Idk I was just saying how I liked being able to name a primarch Steve.:biggrin:


i think there is the names mentioned somewhere i think a horus hersy book


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## NoiseMarine

uriel ventures said:


> i think thta applies to all black libary books reading soul drinker onibus at the mo alway havea dream of being crusehed n sounds kl what your doing


i dont understand what your saying jesus check the spelling...


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## Kendares

i dont remember they giveing the names of the lost primarchs orthir legions. i may not have rememberd it though


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## Farseer Beltiac

Well, you know thier isn't going to be any fluff on it for the next couple years, it would have come out with the new SM codex. I think I may be able to push my works on GW nah jk. But I might post the story up if everyone would like. It's a hard three months in the making. I was originally sick all summer with a Viral Infection so I had a lot of free time and ideas.......that's how I found and joined this forum.....


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## crabpuff

Its obvious they were gay and the Emperor couldn't accept it and disowned them.

But I think having two missing allows for them to renew interest if people ever start to get tired of Space marines. There are many avenues they can take with the appearance of the two.


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## uriel ventures

Farseer Beltiac said:


> Well, you know thier isn't going to be any fluff on it for the next couple years, it would have come out with the new SM codex. I think I may be able to push my works on GW nah jk. But I might post the story up if everyone would like. It's a hard three months in the making. I was originally sick all summer with a Viral Infection so I had a lot of free time and ideas.......that's how I found and joined this forum.....


kl

your proberly right. i doubt they will ever revel the missing primarchs. but it would be kl if they mentioned a bit more info on them


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## Unknown Primarch

yeah defo needs to be mentioned in more detail now that heresy books are out. for me alot needs to be explained so they can move on and concentrate on current fluff. they could make a bag of money and even sell the film rights and then product Great Crusade everything. that way everyone is happy, we get cool stuff, they get hard earned cash!


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## Ferrus Manus

comrade said:


> Wait, I was Almost sure that all the Primarchs we're created for the primary use of leading the Legions using the Primarchs Gene Seed.
> 
> Custodes don't use the Gene Seed, they Are closer to Human then Marines are (Or shall we say the ones who we're created using the gene-seed?)
> 
> Yes but it is a fact that the Custodes are created using the gene-seed, but the Custodes have the gene-seed of the emperor


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## Ferrus Manus

I have read loads of storys on how the two missing primarchs could have vanished or died and who there legion is or who are they.

theres a story where is says the Mechanicus killed one during the AGE of STRIFE

a story says one sacrificed his whole legion and himself to kill a C'tan, and thats how the maelstorm was created

In Dawn of War: dark crusade the Blood ravens mention that the "missing primarch" is with them which could mean they are one missing legion and one of the missing primarchs are alive.

and a story says that one of the missing primarchs looked at records about necrons, Mechanucus and the Iron Hands and went insane about the thought that all three were closley related, and that Ferrus Manus might be the Machine GOD.

All of these storys are really intersting and could be true.


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## Ferrus Manus

by the way whats with the red angel that Horus kept prisinor


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## Baltar

People are missing one crucial link:

In one of the early HH series books, Horus travels through time and sees the creation of the primarchs in their stasis growth chambers and smashed one in anger. A description is given of him hearing a cry of anguish from within the chamber, and him seeing a face and an eye looking on in shock etc. Then bad things happen and the pods are scattered through some portal in the warp. Personally I believe one of the missing primarchs was within the pod that Horus practically destroyed.

Also, the primarch of the Legio Custodes is basically the Emperor. They are NOT space marines, and they are far superior to them. One of the missing primarchs is NOT their primarch.

Also, the Grey Knights are definately second founding, and do not have a primarch. They use the faith in the Emperor as god a weapon, and actually have an embedded copy of the imperial equivalent of the bible within the chest plate of their armour, and it is their chapter icon. For those of you in the know about the time around the first founding, ALL religion, including that relating to the emperor as god was BANNED and totally illegal, and was something seen to be eradicated from the galaxy, especially by the space marines at the time who believed only in science. The Grey Knights are totally the oppossite in this regard.


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## Khorne's Fist

Ferrus Manus said:


> by the way whats with the red angel that Horus kept prisinor


Where are these stories you talk about? Don't just say "It says in a story..." Back it up by telling us which story, if it's canon or fanfic, was it on the net or published.

Also, see that little red button on your posts that say "Edit"? Just use that instead of posting 3 times in the space of 10 minutes. Multiposting annoys a lot of people.


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## Baltar

He means a daemon referred to as "the red angel" as shown in artwork published by GW for the HH series of books. Yes, it is official canon.

As yet nothing has been written about the red angel. Although I do know it is simply a captured and possessed Blood Angel space marine. As you can clearly see from the artwork itself.


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## Khorne's Fist

The Real Sanguinius said:


> He means a daemon referred to as "the red angel" as shown in artwork published by GW for the HH series of books. Yes, it is official canon.
> 
> As yet nothing has been written about the red angel. Although I do know it is simply a captured and possessed Blood Angel space marine. As you can clearly see from the artwork itself.


I know the image he's talking about, that fabulous painting of Horus surrounded by Ahriman, Fulgrim, the Fabricator General, Abbadon etc. But in his second post he mantions 3 different stories regarding the missing Primarchs, but doesn't back them up.


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## Ferrus Manus

Khorne's Fist said:


> I know the image he's talking about, that fabulous painting of Horus surrounded by Ahriman, Fulgrim, the Fabricator General, Abbadon etc. But in his second post he mantions 3 different stories regarding the missing Primarchs, but doesn't back them up.


k sorry about the multi post

and to the quote i cant back them up as there only stories people made, GW have the primarchs information hidden so we can think it up ourselves, its called imganition (but in the dark crusade game the blood ravens do actually mention a missing primarch so they must know him, anyway why do you think the blood ravens are so messed up, cause of their history)


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## LordWaffles

comrade said:


> Wait, I was Almost sure that all the Primarchs we're created for the primary use of leading the Legions using the Primarchs Gene Seed.
> 
> Custodes don't use the Gene Seed, they Are closer to Human then Marines are (Or shall we say the ones who we're created using the gene-seed?)
> 
> And yes I know that the Original Legions Numbered in the 10,000 each range. They only Split up because of the Index Astartes ( Or whatever its called, I've played Guard for 10 years, I can't remember what the SM thing is) after the Horus Heresy (The split was opposed by the Imperial Fists, The Space Wolves, and another one I can't remember.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I am saying according to all the fluff I have read is that currentlly it states that Gene Seed Therapy is _Incompatible _ with the Female genes.
> 
> Yes, the sisters of Battle we're created long after the Heresy, but how about the Sisters of Silence, the Pre-cursors of the Brides of the Emperor (I think thats what they we're called)
> 
> -Comrade, now trying to figure out what you we're trying to say.
> 
> on a side note: In my very distant and increasing Delusional mind, I seem to remember Faintly the Reason for the 2 Blank Legions was because of a issue with the Original person who wrote the back story left GW right before RT was released, leading to a copyright Issue, or something along those lines. Thus GW left them blank.


What the hell is wrong with your keyboard? I keep seeing randomly capitalized letters...

Anyway, does anyone have the painting that is described earlier with "Horus n' friends"? It seems like this would make a good point, and it sounds like kickass art.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I've only ever seen it in the HH Collected Visions book. For me it's the best piece of 40k (or 30k) imagery by a long way.


----------



## revenant13

The Real Sanguinius said:


> People are missing one crucial link:
> 
> In one of the early HH series books, Horus travels through time and sees the creation of the primarchs in their stasis growth chambers and smashed one in anger. A description is given of him hearing a cry of anguish from within the chamber, and him seeing a face and an eye looking on in shock etc. Then bad things happen and the pods are scattered through some portal in the warp. Personally I believe one of the missing primarchs was within the pod that Horus practically destroyed.QUOTE]
> 
> I dont have the book on me right now or even remember in which book it was in, but if you read how Horus looking in the pod is described, he is looking at himself. says something like "as he stared into the creature's eyes, he felt as though he was looking at himself" or something along those lines. that would imply if he destroyed the pod then he killed himself and thus didnt exist. since that obviously didnt happen, the whole dream thing was fake. Magnus even tells Horus to not believe what he sees or to listen to Erebus because it's all lies.


----------



## Baltar

The Sisters of Silence are in no way related to the sisters of battle WHATSOEVER. Their ONLY similarity is that they are women...

The sisters of battle are ecclisiarchy in nature, whereas the sisters of silence (who did NOT have ANY gene therapy) were an organisation of humans that were born as psychic "blanks" - which means they are unaffected completely by psychic powers, and were charged with finding psychers. These were only women also.

The Legio Custodes DID recieve gene therapy like a space marine, but they are much more powerfull. The texts in the collected visions (canon) state that it is common belief in the imperium that the gene seed given to the Custodes has derived from the Emperor himself, rather than any primarch. This is what makes them inherantly more powerful.


----------



## LeeHarvey

effigy22 said:


> Or maybe they didnt want to be masters of war and death, maybe they wanted to be something like poets or artists which disappointed the daddy emperor and so disowned them. :laugh:


Sounds like the most likely explanation to me. "There is no time for Poetry, no time for Art, in the grim darkness of the 42st millenium there is only War!"

I don't really care what happened to them. GW won't tell us until they can figure out a way to make money from it anyways.


----------



## LeeHarvey

effigy22 said:


> Or maybe they didnt want to be masters of war and death, maybe they wanted to be something like poets or artists which disappointed the daddy emperor and so disowned them. :laugh:


Sounds like the most likely explanation to me. "There is no time for Poetry, no time for Art, in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium there is only War!"

I don't really care what happened to them. GW won't tell us until they can figure out a way to make money from it anyways.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Maybe they kept them a secret from the very start so when sales start going down a lot mor they can bring these 2 guys back and add a whole new plot twist, wit hone for Chaos, with a new warband perhaps, and one loyalist, with a unique codex or other unique things like that... kind of a fluff cushion for the future


----------



## Son of mortarion

The Real Sanguinius said:


> People are missing one crucial link:
> 
> In one of the early HH series books, Horus travels through time and sees the creation of the primarchs in their stasis growth chambers and smashed one in anger. A description is given of him hearing a cry of anguish from within the chamber, and him seeing a face and an eye looking on in shock etc. Then bad things happen and the pods are scattered through some portal in the warp. Personally I believe one of the missing primarchs was within the pod that Horus practically destroyed.


Horus did *not* go back in time, he was shown a vision, which was more than likely a creation within the warp, the passage that is referred to was the event where chaos was attempting (successfully) to recruit horus.


----------



## Exitus_10

That fact is debatable, it is not really made clear is it?


----------



## Dessel_Ordo

I agree that we wont get to know until GW needs an amergency bail-out... even then, its just gonna be one of them.

Hell, the way I see it, our grand-children will have inherited our armies and be playing Warhammer 47000 "In the grim Darkness of the Future, mankind is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY close to being extinct... no shitting you, we're finally totally gone by now... just like the eldar only have a handfull of eldar left now, and by a handful we mean only 4 big craftworlds, even though the remnants of the other craftworlds are still marauding... oh, and the Tau are now a majorly huge super-big upstart threat to the Imperium... And the Ultramarines are the only space marines left and they are a legion again":secret::alcoholic:

yea, we're never gonna find out, itd be cOol, but its unlikely...


----------



## the cabbage

Where does everybody get all this info on the Legio Custodes?


----------



## Baltar

Son of mortarion said:


> Horus did *not* go back in time, he was shown a vision, which was more than likely a creation within the warp, the passage that is referred to was the event where chaos was attempting (successfully) to recruit horus.


Thats extremely debatable. In fact Id be most willing to say that is totally incorrect, especially considering a "vision" is simply a viewing of what someone wants you to see, and Horus wasnt just "seeing" things, he was ACTUALLY THERE. He had tangible contact with one of the pods, and it is also highly inferred that this same appearence of Horus in the chamber is the same event which caused the scattering of the pods containing the primarchs in the first place. The chaos portal throwing them across the galaxy. If this is so, then considering Horus would also have been among the pods, and horus was also seeing the chamber, then he MUST have been shown a point previous in time.

IMO this is also inferred in the Dark Angels novel too, when it is suggested one of the main characters in the book was thrown far from the reach of the dark angels by the same chaos force that scattered the primarchs.


----------



## Farseer Beltiac

did these two missing primarchs take part in the Heresy? Like maybe they were at the dropsite massacre on Istavaan 3??? Maybe in the vision he was angry that they didn't join his side during the heresy. Just asking cuz I'm writing some fluff on the missing primarchs here and don't know that much about it......


----------



## Baltar

Nobody knows if they were involved or not.

All record of them has been removed.

Literally, the ONLY thing known about the two missing primarchs is that there were two primarchs out of the 20 originally made that were never identified by GW, and simply that they existed. Nobody knows which chapter they were primarch to, or even if they had one. Nobody knows ANYTHING about them (despite all the people that believe they do). There is nothing in canon written about them whatsoever.

The only things that can be said about them for certain, is who they WERENT. And that would be anything relating to Grey Knights, and anything relating to the Custodes.


----------



## Farseer Beltiac

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Nobody knows if they were involved or not.
> 
> All record of them has been removed.
> 
> Literally, the ONLY thing known about the two missing primarchs is that there were two primarchs out of the 20 originally made that were never identified by GW, and simply that they existed. Nobody knows which chapter they were primarch to, or even if they had one. Nobody knows ANYTHING about them (despite all the people that believe they do). There is nothing in canon written about them whatsoever.
> 
> The only things that can be said about them for certain, is who they WERENT. And that would be anything relating to Grey Knights, and anything relating to the Custodes.



Thanks!!!! Now I can take some license in writing my fluff on a missing legion.....adios!!! off to write some more.....


----------



## Vaz

Ferrus Manus said:


> k sorry about the multi post
> 
> and to the quote i cant back them up as there only stories people made, GW have the primarchs information hidden so we can think it up ourselves, its called imganition (but in the dark crusade game the blood ravens do actually mention a missing primarch so they must know him, anyway why do you think the blood ravens are so messed up, cause of their history)


Their missing Primarch refers to the lack of knowledge of their own history (who their Geneseed is etc), and why they try to find everything about the history of something. It is thought to be Magnus (Psychic Affinity etc), but it's not known.


----------



## Exitus_10

It would be funny if terrorists captured a few hostages and asked GW to tell them about the 2 missing Primarchs or the hostages start dying......lol that would be hilarious, even funnier they refuse!!!


----------



## Razagel

Coulnd't one of the 2 missing Primarchs be Omegon ?

If not then there are 21 Primarchs


----------



## Baltar

If you look through the thread, Omegon was already explained. Technically Alpharius and Omegon are twin brothers, and are not 'two' primarchs, but are one whole primarch as a pair.


----------



## Col. Schafer

The blood ravens are 99.99999% likely magnus. In the DOW books, a thousand sons scorcerer, was imediatly recognised as a freind and brother by a blood raven with amnesia.


----------



## Herger

crap u found me! i'll never lead a chapter or legion till this housing problem is solved.


----------



## Zebadee

I personally think the 2 missing Primarch's might well have been so tainted by Chaos that they went on to become deamon princes or some such , and never did get found , Or perhaps they were found and the Emperor was forced to kill them , ??


----------



## Ferrus Manus

What if one of them was part female, ouch* you would got his ass kicked by the emperor himself!


----------



## Brother Hunter

ok guys they are not lost!
read it and wheep


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions


----------



## Baltar

Ahhh!!!!

Finally! a reference to the primarch with an ability of invisibility!

I KNEW I'd read about it somewhere...


----------



## Lord Reevan

how "canon" is lexicanum? I wouldn't really call that stuff as fact tbh. Where in any part of Official GW fludd has it said thet primarchs had the power of invisibility? That whole page seems to be more assumptions and tinkering with words to get something out of it....


----------



## Brother Hunter

Lord Reevan said:


> how "canon" is lexicanum? I wouldn't really call that stuff as fact tbh. Where in any part of Official GW fludd has it said thet primarchs had the power of invisibility? That whole page seems to be more assumptions and tinkering with words to get something out of it....



theres a list of sources at the bottom of the page


----------



## Baltar

Lexicanum is not canon in itself, but it is totally reliable as it only ever uses sources of canon as reference.

For example, the reference to an invisible primarch is from an ancient publication the "codex imperialis" which remember from those years ago..


----------



## Brother Hunter

whats canon??


----------



## Lord Reevan

ah okay.... Still that seems very fiddly to me.... it's like "he said this so he implied that" kind of way..... Coudl be that I'm not paying much attention too.... sleepy
and canon is basically official stryline that has been verified by GW... more or less


----------



## Son of mortarion

Brother Hunter said:


> ok guys they are not lost!
> read it and wheep
> 
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions


it says nothing we didn't already know, besides one might have had invisibility.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

yeah nothing stopping one of them finding a golden age portable cloaking device and utilising it on the battle field or for what ever other scheme at the time. 
i think any unusual tech can be explained away by the superior golden age technology that is occasionally found and being it 30k then the mechanicum are less likely to hoard it away somewhere.


----------



## Brother Hunter

Son of mortarion said:


> it says nothing we didn't already know, besides one might have had invisibility.


no whats his face kept sayin they were lost and like never found kinda thing, they were all found


----------



## Baltar

They were all found.

Their details were removed.

Although, those that will remember the actuall phrase from the codex imperialis, it did lend large suggestion to one of the primarchs having the power of invisibility. If so, this literature would count of canon...


----------



## FirstandLast

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Ahhh!!!!
> 
> Finally! a reference to the primarch with an ability of invisibility!
> 
> I KNEW I'd read about it somewhere...


The Invisibility refers to them being unaffected by psychic powers. Such a character would also be called an Untouchable. 
Not related to the Grey Knights as the GKs were founded to be the Militant arm of the Ordo Malleus which was formed predominantly around loyalist members of the traitor legions (as of Flight of the Eisenstein, these were mainly Death Guard).

oh and for those who think Sigmar is a Primarch, as well as the other GW given reasons for him not being, Sigmar was supposed to have been born of a woman.


----------



## BLvice

I can see it now. GW will hit us with a 90-100 dollar bomb of a kit allowing you to make your own primarch. It comes with a considerable amount of customizable bits and features and several different basing options. Place your advanced order now, they're selling like hotcakes!


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Sigmar in my mind is for sure one of the two missing Primarchs. People who say that GW has said that WH and 40K are not the same have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Clearly Sigmar's story is that of a Primarch landing on a planet, I think the planet he landed on is in the eye of terror, some Eldar maiden or old colony word with a bad case of the Orc's. The presence of the "Old Ones" aka the Slann makes this a no brainier for me.


----------



## Thuellai

The "Being struck from the records" might also be a reference to the Roman practice of damnatio memoriae. Though of course, for that to be the case they'd have had to do something worse than the *Heresy*, so then you're left wondering what that could possibly be. Some Legions were disbanded for cowardice, though, so there is the possibility that during the Heresy (as their records were expunged following it, according to canon) they refused to fight on either side and were branded as traitors for doing so.


----------



## BloodAngelsfan

Interesting theory about Sigmar being a primarch, the only issue is how could he have landed on the planet if he was born normally (albeit in the middle of a fight under a twin-tailed comet).


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

BloodAngelsfan said:


> Interesting theory about Sigmar being a primarch, the only issue is how could he have landed on the planet if he was born normally (albeit in the middle of a fight under a twin-tailed comet).


Tales of his "birth" could have been a lie to cover his arrival on board his capsule, that was in fact the twin-tailed comet. The Lion was Luther's "son" right?


----------



## jwes82

In the last few Horus Heresy novels Rogal Dorn has made one or two mentions of the lost primarchs to malcador and told not to bring it up again.....and while GW has left those two blank for people to create their own there may be more mention of them in later novels...


----------



## your master

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Tales of his "birth" could have been a lie to cover his arrival on board his capsule, that was in fact the twin-tailed comet. The Lion was Luther's "son" right?


wrong luther found the lion and.... oh wait your being sarlcastic. sigmar is definatly not a primarch he was born has parents and was man size. all ties with WHFB and 40k are broken im afraid the wool is over your eyes.


----------



## Son of mortarion

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Sigmar in my mind is for sure one of the two missing Primarchs. People who say that GW has said that WH and 40K are not the same have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Clearly Sigmar's story is that of a Primarch landing on a planet, I think the planet he landed on is in the eye of terror, some Eldar maiden or old colony word with a bad case of the Orc's. The presence of the "Old Ones" aka the Slann makes this a no brainier for me.


Except for the small detail that GW has said that they are seperate.


----------



## FirstandLast

The Real Sanguinius said:


> He means a daemon referred to as "the red angel" as shown in artwork published by GW for the HH series of books. Yes, it is official canon.
> 
> As yet nothing has been written about the red angel. Although I do know it is simply a captured and possessed Blood Angel space marine. As you can clearly see from the artwork itself.


i know this is slow but somewhere (pg 6 i think), this was posted. and i just wanted to say that the Red Angel was the World Eater Primarch Angron's nickname coz he was an insane killer (hence Red) who landed on the planet whatever its called i.e from the 'heavens' (hence Angel).


----------



## Baltar

No, I'm not talking about Angron.

The artwork showed a possessed space marine, a blood angel, risen off the floor floating in mid air with some kind of power radiating from him, but his body contorted as though fighting it.


----------



## scolatae

Guy's this is purley hypathetical but for one thing sigmars "_dimentions_" are never mentioned anyway on to what i wanted to say. perhaps wh fantasy contains the the two missing primarchs one is possibly sigmar creator of the empire and the other is possibly Gilles le Breton who united the tribes of brettonia in a similar fashon to sigmar and the empire.


----------



## Baltar

That is incorrect.

GW have said quite clearly that Sigmar is not one of the primarchs, and that there is no connection.


----------



## scolatae

The Real Sanguinius said:


> That is incorrect.
> 
> GW have said quite clearly that Sigmar is not one of the primarchs, and that there is no connection.


yeah i know its entirely hyperthetical. hey maybe chuck norris is a primarch.:victory:


----------



## trippy

Son of mortarion said:


> Horus did *not* go back in time, he was shown a vision, which was more than likely a creation within the warp, the passage that is referred to was the event where chaos was attempting (successfully) to recruit horus.


I completely agree with this assessment, Its more likey that Horus was shown what ever was need to turn him against the emporor and what happened in the vision cannot be taken as actual fact...

The writter at this point would like to out that the books are fiction and in-fact are not facts 

I have been reading the post and have enjoyied reading people interpretations of what happened to the missing primarchs.

But if you want my 2 cents I believe they where intensionally left out in the early days to emphise the fact that the storys are looking back in history and that many of the stories where written as historical records telling the story as "this is the to the best of our knowledge from fragmented imperial records". This is one of the ideas that originally hooked me on the story line(the mystery of the past of the imperium).

In saying that though now that the horus heresy books have been released that GW and BL may be able creatively add these elements back in as they are now writting as though this is "matter of fact of what happened" and no longer writting small "to the best of our knowledge" history snipets of imprerial history.

I am going to listen to "the lighning tower" tonight and will check out the comment that someone made about there been 20 pedistols with statues of the primarchs on... the previous post mentions that 2 of the statues are missing which I hope signifys a that the story of the missing two primachs will be elaborated upon... maybe a never before mensioned pre-Horus Herasy Herasy(Sugesstion) could be interesting.

Personally I hav'nt playied 40k in about 10-15 years, when i heard they had released a series of books based on the biggest mistery in the game(the horus heresy) I had to take a look at the new series and am now onto the 11th book after only a few months(got hooked). I have even dug out my old space wolves army and I am thinking about trying to russle up a game locally... Unfortuantly I don't know anyone who plays anymore.

Anywho looks like you got 3 cents and a short life story if you bothered to read all of this...

P.S. Go Space Wolves


----------



## trippy

the cabbage said:


> Where does everybody get all this info on the Legio Custodes?


Its mensioned in the "tales of heresy" first short story... worth reading if you hav'nt already


----------



## For-The-Warmaster

In *The First Heretic* they were said to have destroyed and or forgotten due to heresy or not obeying the corpse-emperors rules.


----------



## Vlka_Fenryka

I've had the honour of reading the majority of the "Horus Heresy" books and remember reading the novel based on "Word Bearers" and "Lorgars" legion called "The First Heretic" and remember a passage were Lorgar and Magnus the Red meet up to discuss certain things (Lorgar's obsession with the warp). On page 163 it clearly states in the conversation between the two primarchs;

"Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead he swore he'd already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third" - Magnus the Red

"Two already lost.' Lorgar looked back to the city. 'I still recall how they-'

"Enough,' Warned Magnus. 'Honour the oath you took that day' (To the Emperor?)

'you all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it *AGAIN* (important bit) Lorgar met his brothers eyes. 'Could you stand with *HORUS AND FULGRIM* (they had something to do with the missing 2?)
and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?

Magnus wouldn't be drawn into this. 'The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the **FORGOTTEN AND THE PURGED** (the two missing legions/Primarchs) **I TRUST YOU LORGAR,** (indicating the other 2 couldn't?)

that's all I can remember so far about any mentions about the two missing primarchs but from the text above you can see that the 2 lost Legions were "PURGED" and left to be "FORGOTTEN" by Horus and Fulgrim, Magnus also states that he believes Lorgar won't go down the same path like the other two and that he trusts Lorgar basically meaning the other two went down a path which had them destroyed and which Lorgar fears will happen to him as well.


----------



## AgentOrange24

Well, based on The First Heretic, we now know it was the Emperor himself who ordered the records of them purged.

We also know they had been purged at least 40 years prior to the Heresy.Possibly both, one, or parts of each were also added to the Ultramarines.


----------



## MuSigma

Its a sad and sorry shame our missing two primarchs were not as wiley and crafty as Conrad Kurze - the Legendary Haunter of Nights - He has said to have lost count of the number of times the Imperium has tried to assassinate him covertly. 

Come to think of it, in Nemesis SPOILER ALERT

The Imperium tries to assassinate Horus - if this is the common and failed method of killing Primarchs did our missing two meet a similar dishonourable fate.

Not that it seems to work.


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade

Druchii in Space said:


> Likely before, as they're has been no reference about them, and none of the other Primarchs have even shown a hint of knowing about them.


God only knows why I can remember it as I can't prove it at the mo, if someone else can please help me out. But I'm pretty sure in one of the HH novels Rogal Dorn has a conversation with Malcador where he mentions "two others" but Malcador tells him that they can never be mentioned again. Could be _Tales of Heresy _or maybe _Nemesis._


----------



## FORTHELION

Its mentioned in the lightening tower, and from what i can remember im almost sure its in mechanicum as well. 
Ill look it up and get back to you with a page ref number.
Or if child of the emperor reads this first he would probably be able to tell you off the top of his head.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Vlka_Fenryka said:


> Ithat's all I can remember so far about any mentions about the two missing primarchs but from the text above you can see that the 2 lost Legions were "PURGED" and left to be "FORGOTTEN" by Horus and Fulgrim, Magnus also states that he believes Lorgar won't go down the same path like the other two and that he trusts Lorgar basically meaning the other two went down a path which had them destroyed and which Lorgar fears will happen to him as well.





MuSigma said:


> Come to think of it, in Nemesis SPOILER ALERT
> 
> The Imperium tries to assassinate Horus - if this is the common and failed method of killing Primarchs did our missing two meet a similar dishonourable fate.
> 
> Not that it seems to work.


Well after reading Prospero Burns it would appear that they were destroyed/sanctioned by another Legion(or more than one) and the Vlka Fenryka(Space Wolves) were very likely the ones to have done it.



FORTHELION said:


> Its mentioned in the lightening tower, and from what i can remember im almost sure its in mechanicum as well.
> Ill look it up and get back to you with a page ref number.
> Or if child of the emperor reads this first he would probably be able to tell you off the top of his head.


Dorn has the conversation with Malcador in Mechanicum, round about the time they are discussing the events of Mars, Horus turning and them preparing to send the Legions after them, with Dorn mentioning it could have been more (had the other two not been purged) which is when Malcador stops him and forbids him from talking about it anymore


----------



## Imperial Valor

One day somebody will crack and tells us what happened 
Or we could abduct the High Lords of Terra and force them to tell us.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Angel of Blood said:


> Dorn has the conversation with Malcador in Mechanicum, round about the time they are discussing the events of Mars, Horus turning and them preparing to send the Legions after them, with Dorn mentioning it could have been more (had the other two not been purged) which is when Malcador stops him and forbids him from talking about it anymore


it really gets the mind whirling when you think even after half the legions turn against the emperor that theloyalists still think the unknowns cant be mentioned. you would think it would actually be a hot topic of convo between the imperial royal family to be honest. with all the little teasers we keep getting i think we SHOULD get the answers to the holy grail of questions. there is enough thats been worked on now to single out a real official cause to what they did and spice up the heresy and 40k at the same time too without having to change things fluff wise.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Imperial Valor said:


> One day somebody will crack and tells us what happened


That's exactly it though, no one knows. GW/BL don't have the answers some of us seek locked away in a hidden vault. They simply never created the fates of the lost Legions. The lore doesn't exist.

They give us minimal hints here and there to entice us and trigger debate. But ultimately it's down to us and our individual perspective to decide what most likely happened to them.


----------



## GabrialSagan

One of them is Sigmar.


----------



## Serpion5

Be careful. There are mentions in several books. Because my memory is like a sieve, I have the hints, but not the books they came from. :laugh:



In one of the books, they are referred to as _The Forgotten_ and _The Purged._ This suggests that one legion was disbanded (also hinted that they were most likely subsumed into the Ultramarines Legion) and the other was destroyed (almost certainly by the space wolves). The reasons for these events are not entirely known, but it is confirmed that they fell to two seperate tragedies. It is also confirmed that they both participated in the Great Crusade. 


Knowing that, we can pretty much rule out a lot of bullshit theories that have been spouted over the years...

Neither of them is a woman.

It is unlikely that they were pariahs.

Neither of them was Sigmar.

They are not related to the GK or the Custodes.

Neither of them were good at tennis.

They are almost certainly both dead.

And most importantly of all, GW are arseholes on this. If there was no official Lore to begin with, there probably is now, at least in theory. Everything BL publishes has to be approved, so it`s possible that they`ll spill the beans eventually. 

We can hope at least.


----------



## ckcrawford

I think that both of them were destroyed in the broadest term of the word. The Thousand Sons for example could be considered a destroyed legion as they basically had more than 9/10s of their legion destroyed along with their homeworld. I think that may have been the fate of the lost/destroyed legions. 

I for one, think that at most, their might be a cameo of a legion or two passing by the Heresy Series as ghost like allies. Maybe a character or two truly knowing who they are and making a brief statement without descriptions or anything.


----------



## Baron Spikey

The unexpected allies who come to the Space Wolve's aid in escaping the Alpha Legion ambush?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> The unexpected allies who come to the Space Wolve's aid in escaping the Alpha Legion ambush?


Fairly certain that particular aid from an 'unexpected quater' was not one of the Lost Primarchs, but it is one of the most enticing mysteries of the Heresy.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Fairly certain that particular aid from an 'unexpected quater' was not one of the Lost Primarchs, but it is one of the most enticing mysteries of the Heresy.


Oh I don't believe it is either but I just like stirring this pot o shite, if only to distract from the Sigmar 'theory'.


----------



## Warsmith40

Before saying anything, I'd like to restate (as many times as it's been said) that the Lost Legions were created by Games Workshop with little to no solid background for the specific purpose of creative freedom in successor Chapters (my own fluff Chapter is supposed to be XI Legion descended, with only two individuals in the Chapter ever aware of the Primarch's name, and it is the Chapter's most closely guarded secret.)

However, a few things are made fairly clear:
One, they were essentially the same as the other Legions and did indeed participate in the Great Crusade.
Two, during the early or middle years of the Crusade, some calamity befalls both and the tragedy is,for whatever reason, so great that they are removed from Imperial records (turned to Chaos? or perhaps no one was to know the entire Legion had been decimated in a war, as it would be crippling to Imperial morale)
And finally three, by the current age, no one would know anything about the lost Legions, their legacy lost to time.


----------



## ckcrawford

Warsmith40 said:


> Before saying anything, I'd like to restate (as many times as it's been said) that the Lost Legions were created by Games Workshop with little to no solid background for the specific purpose of creative freedom in successor Chapters


That may have been the original purpose, but like many things already being changed from their original idea, I think BL/Games Workshop is trying to do more with it. I really haven't seen someone really go out of their way to produce a good fiction legion. Chapters are a different story. But just the thought of someone even trying to produce some fluff for creativity over the lost legion kind of makes me sick. Its just not right.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Warsmith40 said:


> However, a few things are made fairly clear:
> One, they were essentially the same as the other Legions and did indeed participate in the Great Crusade.


Well we have no idea wether thats true or not, one of them could of been a legion of flower picking hippies expunged from records for simply being too fucking gay




Warsmith40 said:


> so great that they are removed from Imperial records (turned to Chaos? or perhaps no one was to know the entire Legion had been decimated in a war, as it would be crippling to Imperial morale)


Well nine whole other Legions turned to chaos and weren't expunged from records, so i've got to believe its something else. And from the general talk about them and their forbidden and lamented nature of their deletion i wouldn't think it would be something so simple as they were destroyed in battle.


----------



## Brother Emund

In The First Heretic 
Spoiler Alert! 

it was intimated by Argal-Tal and the selected Word Bearers, that the Legions mights have been absorbed into the Ultramarines. Nothing much about the 2 Primachs though
. What do others think about this theory?


----------



## ckcrawford

Brother Emund said:


> In The First Heretic
> Spoiler Alert!
> 
> it was intimated by Argal-Tal and the selected Word Bearers, that the Legions mights have been absorbed into the Ultramarines. Nothing much about the 2 Primachs though
> . What do others think about this theory?


For now ADB has stated that it is just a rumor spread around by few. Definitely a possibility, but still probably improbable.


----------



## Brother Emund

ckcrawford said:


> For now ADB has stated that it is just a rumor spread around by few. Definitely a possibility, but still probably improbable.


Lots of little snippits in this book, a really good read


----------



## Romolo

Prospero Burns Spoilers.





In Prospero Burns, near the end of the book, Russ slightly states that the Wolves also sanctioned another legion besides the TSons.


----------



## Azkaellon

The Emperor Offed them both and the remaining troop's joined the ultrasmurf's thus explaining there chapter size.


----------



## The_Varangian

not both joining the smerfs. IMO, 1 chapter was lost (in the warp?) and the other, if they wern't obliterated by the wolves, maybe joined the smerfs. but isnt it mentioned somewhere that [guliman? spelling error] had a sort of empire before the emperor turned up? prime recuiting ground anyone? with 10 planets already in semi-hive style, its preety obvious that he'll have a lot of recuits. 
also, if anyone was going to get extra recuits, why not the wolves? they are the last line afterall, wouldnt do for them to be outnumbered by one chapter.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I can't see a Legion being lost in the warp meriting a full deletion and taboo of it's name and Primarch


----------



## Baron Spikey

Witch King of Angmar said:


> The Emperor Offed them both and the remaining troop's joined the ultrasmurf's thus explaining there chapter size.


That's a vague rumour between 2 Word Bearers Astartes.

ADB has categorically said that the 2 Marines were 'gossiping' and that you shouldn't necessarily put much stock in what that had to say.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

realistically when would 2 adeptus astartes really gossip! for me the explaination of one of them doing something really bad personally to the emperors edicts and the whole of his legion not having a clue or a similar account of some of his legion actually being loyal to the throne and turning on their primarch and brothers until russ comes to terminate them all. then all loyalists being added to another legion seeing as the grey knights were just a twinkle in the emps progenoid gland. it kinda sounds good, makes sense but leaves us with the question as to what they did.

its gonna have to be a bloody good reason but one that explains why the rest wouldnt speak of it again under oath. i hope someone can make a compelling story for this seeing as BL are sort of narrowing it down to a actual answer.


----------



## primarch 11

The 2nd primarch turned out to be a pacifist. He invested most of his time in permaculture and sustainability and was never interested in his crazy fathers goal of conquering the universe. When he publicly renounced his military heritage and joined a commune he was disowned by the emperor and deleted from imperial records.
The 11th primarch was sort of a burnout. Shortly after his discovery he fell in with the wrong crowd. He started drinking heavily and smoking lots of Iho sticks among other things. After getting kicked out out of military school several times he was disowned by the emperor and deleted from imperial records.
Sereously though I really like the idea of making up out own primarchs.
The Black Library authors are amazing, but we don't need to get every last detail from them.
To keep a novel short......
In my gaming club's 40k univers, the 11th primarch was found by the Eldar. The second primarch and his legion were orderd to hunt down and destroy their xenos tainted kin. When they refused they were excomunicated. Both primarchs and the marines from their respective legions who remained loyal to them, allied themselves with the Eldar and have evaded the imperium and the powers of chaos ever since.


----------



## Serpion5

That`s probably true. If my bro went to some other crew and then my other bro wouldn`t beat him down for it I`d be pretty pissed as well. 



J/K :biggrin:


----------



## Unknown Primarch

primarch 11 said:


> The 2nd primarch turned out to be a pacifist. He invested most of his time in permaculture and sustainability and was never interested in his crazy fathers goal of conquering the universe. When he publicly renounced his military heritage and joined a commune he was disowned by the emperor and deleted from imperial records.
> The 11th primarch was sort of a burnout. Shortly after his discovery he fell in with the wrong crowd. He started drinking heavily and smoking lots of Iho sticks among other things. After getting kicked out out of military school several times he was disowned by the emperor and deleted from imperial records.
> Sereously though I really like the idea of making up out own primarchs.
> The Black Library authors are amazing, but we don't need to get every last detail from them.
> To keep a novel short......
> In my crews 40k univers, the 11th primarch was found by the Eldar. The second primarch and his legion were orderd to hunt down and destroy their xenos tainted kin. When they refused they were excomunicated. Both primarchs and the marines from their respective legions who remained loyal to them, allied themselves with the Eldar and have evaded the imperium and the powers of chaos ever since.


gotta agree with the last bit there. its about the only answer i can come up with as to my one would be expunged from record. maybe he landed on a exodite world, got raised by them and then was found, saw all his kinsmen get wiped out by the imperial forces, had a deepseted hatred for emp like angron and after a while just turned on him and said he was a arsehole for what he was doing and left or was killed. 

now the other one got fucked up by russ id say. simple


----------



## Azkaellon

Unknown Primarch said:


> gotta agree with the last bit there. its about the only answer i can come up with as to my one would be expunged from record. maybe he landed on a exodite world, got raised by them and then was found, saw all his kinsmen get wiped out by the imperial forces, had a deepseted hatred for emp like angron and after a while just turned on him and said he was a arsehole for what he was doing and left or was killed.
> 
> now the other one got fucked up by russ id say. simple


Would not amaze me if Gulliman had something to do with it as well.....As so much about the smurfs would be explained.


----------



## TheSpore

i read some fluff somewhere that said one these guys was actually raised by the chaos gods in the warp and he said screw u guys when he was denied god hood and when the big E found him he denied him his birth right. he then came to make his own legion behind the big E's back and fought both chaos and the imperium


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'm unfortunaetly going to have to call bullshit on that one, you were likely reading some fan made fluff. Nothing like that has ever appeared in official 40k fluff. And for another thing, all 20 Primarchs, were all known to have been reunited with the Emperor, and fought in the Great Crusade


----------



## TheSpore

hey just something i read a long long time ago


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Would not amaze me if Gulliman had something to do with it as well.....As so much about the smurfs would be explained.


i could go into detail about him but ill keep it short. i think he is a very shrewd guy and wouldnt surprise me if they somehow show that side of him at some stage of HH that make him not as clean cut as what people think he is.


----------



## Spetzna909

Sorry to resurrect a month old post...

Well, I am new to this site, but very knowledgeable with 40K fluff. Did some google searches when curiosity got the best of me about the II and XI Primarchs/Legions and ended up here. Read all 15 pages and in my opinion, pretty much everything posted that isn't HH quoted is crap.

Just as an FYI, I am an analyst be profession and have a keen mind when it comes to examining and cross examining information. As a result, the stuff towards the end is a result of that.

-Neither is Sigmar. GW has denied it and the idea seems ridiculously dumb anyway. Couldn't make me believe it if you pointed a gun to my head.
-It has been clarified already, but I want to just say it bc it made me laugh when I read it. NO, the missing 2 primarchs have NOTHING to do with the SOB, SOS, Custodes, or Grey Knights.
-I am a little skeptical about the Custodes being FAR superior to the Astartes. In "The First Heretic", Argel Tal and Torgal observe 5 or 6 custodes fighting. They didn't seem to impressed. Actually, they noticed what they considered a flaw before anything else. They said that they were like lions, fighting alone without care to what the custode standing next to them was doing. Where as the Astartes were like wolves, fighting as brothers, unified as a unit. Also, on the trip to Colchis, Argel Tal spent much time sparring with the Custodes leader. He made no mention of getting beat all the time. He actually stated that they were fairly equal in skill.
-To be honest, I highly doubt that either of the 2 missing legions were acclimated into the Ultramarines. Many reasons behind this, but one in particular stands out. Each legions gene seed is unique. Do you really think that the Ultramarines, with all their rules and regulations, would allow Astartes with a different gene seed, and thus different traits, to be acclimated into their legion? I think NOT.
-I stand by the theory that Horus DID indeed go back in time when the 20 primarchs were still on Terra and in capsules. He affected one, and was confronted and seen by a member of the Legio Custodes (can't remember full details of this, but if asked, I suppose I can dig up the reference). 
-The Blood Ravens theory is highly unlikely. How would a chapter derive from a legion that was expunged prior to the heresy? Remember, the splitting of the legions into chapters happened after the heresy. Plus, this isn't a legitimate reason, but I think the Blood Ravens are crap. Really sick of only being able to play their crappy chapter in the DOW games. Diversity ppl, diversity.
-It appears both Primarchs were given legions. Both were found by the Emperor and met most, if not all of their other 18 brothers. So no, they weren't demon princes, whores for the eldar, blah blah blah.
-They were expunged/forgotten within the first 100 (give or take) years of the Great Crusade. Well before the heresy, so NO, they did not take place in the heresy. 
-If you remember correctly, the majority of the Primarchs had no knowledge of chaos, or the chaos gods (with maybe the exception of Magnus) prior to beginnings of the heresy. Sure, it is possible that the two missing brothers were tainted in some way, then completely expunged because the Emp. didn't want the knowledge of chaos to spread amongst the other 18 legions. Remember...was not just secularism that was law, it was also frowned upon to believe in anything superstitious. Even using words like "luck" made ppl pissy. I kinda find the chaos thing unlikely though. It sure does seem that numerous primarchs knew what happened to their 2 missing brothers, and right before mentioning it, are told to STFU by either a brother, or Malcador. They can obviously speak of them being gone, but not the reason, thus leading me to believe that most DO know the reason. Thus, making me believe that Chaos taint is not the answer due to the Primarchs complete lack of knowledge on the subject prior to Heresy.

This is all I have so far. More will come to mind but after reading 15 pages, I am finding it hard to remember all that I wanted to say and respond to.

Sorry for the length guys. I am not well known for making short posts.


----------



## Baltar

You seem to have identified the parts of 'The First Heretic' that support your thoughts with regard to the Custodes, but you seem also to have conveniently left out the parts that would lend evidence to the thought that the Custodes are definitely a superior warrior.

For example, it states (more than once, I seem to recall) that during sparring matches, the Custodes would fight against Astartes, and would win within seconds. It actually took Argel Tal being possessed by a demon to actually be able to defeat Aquillon.


----------



## Spetzna909

Give me a little slack. I am still half way through "The First Heretic". If what you say is true, then I yield to your knowledge.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Seems bizzare that as an 'anaylst' you made such a statement without fully researching the source material first. As Baltar said, in one on one duels, the Custodes are clearly better, better than the Worf Bearers at least, wait till you see Vendatha in action.

Welcome to the forums anyway i guess, slightly arrogant opening post imo, but hey nvm. Not entirely sure i agree with the statement "everything posted that isn't HH quoted is crap." Even if it isn't outright stated, speculation is still good to see and talk about, who knows if some of them are true or not.

In regards to the Ultramarines. I happen to not believe it either. But you say the Ultramarines would not due to their doctrines, i bet you they would if the Emperor ordered them to. Not saying he did, but i wouldn't dismiss it based on those grounds.

How do you know they weren't 'Eldar whores'? Collaborating with Xenos could have been a reason for one of them being expunged.


----------



## Spetzna909

Angel of Blood said:


> Seems bizzare that as an 'anaylst' you made such a statement without fully researching the source material first. As Baltar said, in one on one duels, the Custodes are clearly better, better than the Worf Bearers at least, wait till you see Vendatha in action.
> 
> Welcome to the forums anyway i guess, slightly arrogant opening post imo, but hey nvm. Not entirely sure i agree with the statement "everything posted that isn't HH quoted is crap." Even if it isn't outright stated, speculation is still good to see and talk about, who knows if some of them are true or not.
> 
> In regards to the Ultramarines. I happen to not believe it either. But you say the Ultramarines would not due to their doctrines, i bet you they would if the Emperor ordered them to. Not saying he did, but i wouldn't dismiss it based on those grounds.
> 
> How do you know they weren't 'Eldar whores'? Collaborating with Xenos could have been a reason for one of them being expunged.


Just haven't read the book all the way yet. So I suppose I should have kept that one to myself until I read the whole thing. Apologies.

Thanks for the welcome, and yes, I am well aware that I can come across as arrogant. Suppose it is a flaw of mine. At least I am able to admit that and that I can be wrong. I suppose that's a slight redeeming factor. :laugh: 

I can understand you don't agree with the quote. I agree that speculation can be fun and many times enlightening. It is just the speculation about the SOB, SOS, custodes, grey knights, blood ravens, etc is WAY too far fetched. Using the word "crap" was probably a little harsh, but I am a man that speaks his mind, no matter what it is. :victory:

I honestly think the GW, before the HH series is over, will release at least the reason they were expunged. Maybe not their names, but at least why. If it was just mentioned once then I would not be so sure, but it seems to be coming up more and more as the series advances. It is by those primarchs that seemed to be confused about their path. Not necessarily those that went traitor outright, but by those that were tricked or confused. It is not Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, etc (the blatantly obvious traitors for all the wrong reasons) that discuss it. It is Magnus and Lorgar, whose path to corruption is not such a straight path that mention it. Dorn mentions it, and although is is definitely no traitor, he spoke of them during a time in which he was greatly confused. He was troubled by tearing down the palace's architectural glories and replacing them with battlements and defenses. He was hurt and confused about his brothers betrayals, and for the most part, seemed to be a little upset that he was to wait for the traitors to come to him. It is hard to put into words but do you see what I am trying to get at.

I think the II and XI's path to being expunged was not so simple and evil. I doubt it was because of the eldar either. From they way they are remembered by their brothers, it seems they are greatly missed, not scorned. It is almost as if they could have been doing something that they thought was for the benefit of their father's vision, and humanity (like Lorgar and Magnus) but instead did the exact opposite. All speculation I know, but it just doesn't seem to me that they are spoken of (however little) as someone that is easy for the others to just forget. It is like their is a sound of guilt when they are mentioned.

As far as the Ultramarines, I know you said you agree, but I don't think the Emp. would have made that order. The flaws of a Primarch can easily be carried on by his astarte sons. They carry a part of them in their gene seed. If the Emp. was so upset as to have their records expunged, as well as forbidding the others to speak of them, I doubt he would take the chance of one of their progeny stirring up trouble. This is in no way sourced, but I would think that mixing different gene seeds into one legion would be very very high up on the list of no no's. Just a thought though.

Thanks again for the welcome. I will try my best and curb my mouth next time lol. Dont want to make enemies in my first few posts.


----------



## Snake40000

Snake40000 said:


> Well after reading Godric post.... i think i will attempt to put an end to this.
> 
> Most of the information i have been able to gather from novels, have lead me to believe that the Patriarchs of the 2nd and 11th legions were exspunged, then the remainders of there troops were absorbed by the ultramarines. This is info is based on the HH series; primarily from "The First Heretic".
> 
> Now what this tells me is that the gene seed of the legions were sound; so that would not be an issue, see Thousand Sons for why it might be an issue, so it had to be something about the Patriarchs. In the HH series a number of comments are made about these Patriarchs; the comments primarily revolve around things to never be spoken about.
> 
> This is purely conjector on my part, but it apears that the Emperor and MOST of his sons gathered and decided apon the Patriarchs in questions fate.
> 
> OR
> 
> That the Emperor and ALL of his sons gathered and descused what happened to them. AKA the Emperor decided there fate.
> 
> 
> See the issue is that there is no time line. You cannot know when in the Great Crusade they were found for sure. Since the influx or Ultramarines could have happened at anytime after there conseption. So for all we know one or both of them may have been found before Horus. One thing to remember is that before ANY Patriarchs were found ALL Space Marines were terrans.
> 
> And that is the extent of hard fact I have been able to gather.
> 
> -Legions gene seeds were sound.
> -Ultramarines Took in the ramainders.
> -The Patriarchs were unacceptible in some way.
> 
> Yes im sure there are spelling mistakes -_-


I posted this awhile ago. But as an addition the blood ravens are the only surviving legacy of the Thousand Sons that are with the emperium.


----------



## Spetzna909

Very interesting about the Ultramarines. Don't recall reading that while going through all the pages. That would make sense then. If the 2 missing ones were found early, and given a legion, and then shortly after, expunged, it would mean that most if not all of their astartes would have been Terran like you said. I would assume that that would make acclimating into the Smurf legion easier.

As far as the Blood Ravens, I really do wish that there would be some more canon on their background. I agree that they are a shoot off of the Thousand Sons, but what I can't seem to wrap my mind around is why that was allowed to happen. I would seriously doubt that the Empire doesn't know of their origins. You would just assume that allowing a chapter to exist that come from one of the heresy traitor legions would be a big no no. :dunno:


----------



## Angel of Blood

Snake40000 said:


> I posted this awhile ago. But as an addition the blood ravens are the only surviving legacy of the Thousand Sons that are with the emperium.


Theres never been any confirmation that that is true, only VERY vague links and speculation.

In regard to your quoted post:

"And that is the extent of hard fact I have been able to gather.

-Legions gene seeds were sound.
-Ultramarines Took in the ramainders."

How is that hard fact?

And i very much doubt either of them were found before Horus, every source states he was first.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Snake40000 said:


> One thing to remember is that before ANY Patriarchs were found ALL Space Marines were terrans.


Not true.
We know for certain that there were thousands of non-Terran Astartes in the Legions by the time the 20th Legion (the Alpha Legion) was founded.


----------



## Spetzna909

Baron Spikey said:


> Not true.
> We know for certain that there were thousands of non-Terran Astartes in the Legions by the time the 20th Legion (the Alpha Legion) was founded.


Wait wait... What you say is true. By the time the Alpha Legion was founded, I am sure that some legions strength might have comprised of even half and half. That is NOT what he was saying though.

He was stating that BEFORE any of the Primarchs were found, all Astartes were from Terra.
"One thing to remember is that before ANY Patriarchs were found ALL Space Marines were terrans."


----------



## Angel of Blood

Again, not strictly true. Index Astartes IV states that records suggest that humans from Cthonia were taken to Terra to be used to create astartes for the XVI Legion. Indeed Iacton Qruze is a Cthonian, yet he took part in the Unification Wars.


----------



## Spetzna909

Angel of Blood said:


> Again, not strictly true. Index Astartes IV states that records suggest that humans from Cthonia were taken to Terra to be used to create astartes for the XVI Legion. Indeed Iacton Qruze is a Cthonian, yet he took part in the Unification Wars.


Hmm...very interesting. I didn't know this at all. I thought that things went in order like this. Unification wars, creation/scattering of the Primarchs, creation of the Astartes legions based off the genetic material of the 20 lost Primarchs, crusade begins, Primarchs found.

Their are a couple reasons I bring up this timeline. I am not trying to say you are wrong, in fact, after a little research, what you say about Iacton agrees with what I found on other sites. I am just confused. Would that have meant that (if my timeline is correct) that Iacton fought in the wars as not exactly a full astartes? Like a proto-astarte and was later given the full transformation and gene seed of Horus?

I just have some problems with this. If Iacton was from Cthonia, that means that Terra would have been in contact with Cthonia of course, and was capable of reaching it. Now, this also means that Iacton would have been there with the Emp. when Horus was found right? As were all of the old school Astartes. Primarchs had a legion already practically built for them when they are found. 

-Iacton is recruited from Cthonia for the Uni. Wars.
-Emp. sets about his crusade and then finds the primarchs on worlds long forgotten.
-Horus was found on Cthonia

Do you see where I am finding a problem? How can Iacton be from Cthonia and take present in the Uni Wars and then be there with the Emp and the rest of the legion when Horus is found on the long forgotten Cthonia? It is hard for me to put into words. If you don't understand, I will try to describe better. To me, it sounds like there are some errors in timeline as far as the canon goes.


----------



## Angel of Blood

It's hard to say with Qruze, although Dorn specifically refers to him as an old relic from or similar, and he is noticeably 'older' than every other astartes shown thus far, even the Terrans, which supports the theory that he may have fought in the unification wars and become a proto-astartes and then a full astartes, albeit not a perfect astartes conversion. 

As for Cthonia, it was within normal space travel distance of Terra in very close proximity, not even requiring the warp to reach, hence why Horus was found so soon. It's quite possible that humans from Cthonia(likely children) were being taken by the Imperium in preparation for the legions before the primarchs were even scattered. And even once they were scattered, they could've have carried on recruiting from Cthonia even after Horus had landed there, unbeknownst to them, he would have taken quite a few years to mature and rise to prominence and the attention of the Imperium anyway.


----------



## Spetzna909

Awesome! Thanks for smoothing that out. Had no idea about the distance being so short. It all makes sense now.


----------



## LunaticStrain

I am wondering something. Each of the Primarchs is a reflection of part of the Emperor. None of them could ever be the big E, but they each take traits from him and are special in their own way.

What if there was a taint found in the 2 Primarchs. Not a Chaos thing, but a facet of the Emperor that he doesn't wish people to know. If it was Chaos then Horus would have had more information on what was happening to him before it got to him conversing with demons. Perhaps it was something so bad that the Emperor ordered one of the Primarchs to kill the other. When he refused, E got the Wolves (who are crazy murderous and always willing to slaughter their fellow Space Marines) to destroy the tainted chapter. The first Primarch who refused could have willingly offered himself to the Emperor, having defied his father and knowing he was going to be punished. He could either have been killed and his legion broken up, or had his legion taken away and was forced into exile.

It'd be cool if he was still travelling the galaxy alone, seeking penance for what he did, and the knowledge that the Emperor is mostly dead, and if he had been there he might have been able to prevent it.


----------



## Spetzna909

Really dig those ideas. I had never thought about the missing two possibly getting some bad traits of the Emp.


----------



## Darkoan

Ha - I just did a post on this elsewhere relating to 'which Primarch is most like the Emp'.

I suggested most if not all of the 18 Primarchs had something of the Emp in them. Horus' ambition, Lorgars countenance, Guillimans admin & tactics, Magnus' psychic abilities etc.

Which for me provides the best suggestion for what happened to the 2 lost Primarchs - there was something about them that was either 1) so not the Emperor he hated it or 2) something of the the Emperor that HE himself hated.
Either way, it was enough to snuff them.

And yes, interesting mention of the Space wolves
**SPOILER FOR Prospero Burns***

There is a passage at the end where Russ is questioned about one Legion (SW) being unleashed on another (TS), and implies it is not the first time that has occurred.
That was juicy I thought.


So, what bad traits could the Lost Primarchs have had?
Primarch II, the Flatulent One!
Primarch XI, the Great Stoner!

Or maybe they were both smoking chicks and the Emp knew itd be like herding cats trying to get 18 Primarchs' minds on the job conquering the galaxy.


----------



## Diatribe1974

Not sure if it was mentioned here, so point me to where it was answered, but anyways......

Has anyone ever identified why the Emperor sent the other 2 away and said to essentially "Pretend they don't exist" or however it was worded?


----------



## Baron Spikey

Diatribe1974 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned here, so point me to where it was answered, but anyways......
> 
> Has anyone ever identified why the Emperor sent the other 2 away and said to essentially "Pretend they don't exist" or however it was worded?


No.

Ten character limit.


----------



## daxxglax

Diatribe1974 said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned here, so point me to where it was answered, but anyways......
> 
> Has anyone ever identified why the Emperor sent the other 2 away and said to essentially "Pretend they don't exist" or however it was worded?


This is based off Ancient Rome, when Emperors could condemn traitors or those that brought shame to Rome to "damnatio memoriae," removing every trace that the person ever existed. Their statues were destroyed and their names obliterated from all public records.

The Emperor claims he will do this to Magnus after the latter broke the webway, and it's what's done to the Traitor Legions (and all subsequent Renegade Chapters)

In "The Lightning Tower," Dorn is observing the 20 statues of the Primarchs in the Imperial Palace on Terra, where 2 of the statues were covered up. He notes that they "...had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers [and] their separate tragedies."

In addition, he notes that they had seemed like "aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings?" This is thought in reference to the current situation with Horus's rebellion. Prior to sending Sigismund and his Imperial Fists to Mars during the Heresy, Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever." This seems to be the case long before Horus rebels, as during his vision quest on Davin, he puts his hand on the capsule of Primarch 11 and reflects upon the "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass". A short while later, he hits the capsule, cracking it. Though, this latter part was probably part of the vision quest and had no effect on reality. However, it is interesting to note that during the vision of the Gal Vorbak, in The First Heretic, the eleventh Primarch is referenced as still being innocent and pure prior to the scattering of the Primarchs. This implies that the eleventh Primarch either becomes corrupted or is guilty of some degree of transgression against the Emperor/Imperium, or both.

This may be outdated, but Second Edition's Ultramarines Codex states that it seems likely that Legions II and XI fought for Horus at least during the beginning of the Heresy. It also refers to the records as being destroyed following the Heresy. Looking at the latest Chaos Space Marin Codex, it states that "all across the galaxy, those not too long in the service of Chaos saw the error of their ways and switched sides, hoping to earn some redemption in the eyes of their master." This could, of course, be referring to any force that had served Horus (those of the Imperial Army, Mechanicum, etc.), but it is also possible that one of the legions switched sides before or during the end of the Heresy. Of course, it's easier to assume that 10 legions went renegade and 10 stayed loyal. 

The newer Horus Heresy books flesh these 2 unknown legions out in greater light. Int he First Heretic, it is revealed that the Lost Primarchs were erased from Imperial records at least 43 years prior to the events of Isstvan V, as only eighteen Legions are referenced during the events at Monarchia. 
Not only that, but it is implied that the Emperor personally cast aside the two lost Primarchs: "I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers - and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of."
Indeed, throughout the remainder of the Great Crusade, the remaining Primarchs were oathed not to even talk about the lost Primarchs, referred to as 'the forgotten and the purged'

A rumor is revealed that could explain what ultimately became of the II and XI Legions. Around the time that the II and XI Legions were expunged from Imperial records, the Ultramarines Legion swelled in Astartes numbers to eclipse all other Legions. It could merely be a rumour, or it could actually be the case that the II and XI Legion's Astartes were inducted into the XIII Legion after they were officially expunged from Imperial records. This rumour however still doesn't explain what actually happened to the II and XI Primarchs.

We also glean some more insight from Prospero Burns. In a conversation near the end of the novel, Leman Russ discussed the coming destruction of the Thousand Sons legion. When asked if he was concerned over the fact that Space Marines were fighting other Space Marines, he commented that this was not the first time the Wolves had been called on to perform this task. This might be a reference to the possible destruction of the Legion II and/or XI. 

At another point, a Space Wolf Rune Priest goes on to explain that all the Primarchs, and their legions, were created with a purpose or "Wyrd". One was destined to be the Emperor's statesman, one to be his storm trooper, one to lead his armies, and so on. Horus was always destined to be Warmaster, the priest said. When the Runepriest was asked what Leman Russ' wyrd was, the priest stated simply "He is the Emperor's executioner". This seems to lend creedence to Russ's earlier statement.

All of these events happen just prior to Horus openly turning against the Emperor. Which seems to corroborate that both the II and XI legions had been destroyed or expunged prior to the start of the Horus Heresy, and as such, it is possible that neither one of these legions took part in the events of the heresy itself.


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## ToxicWarFish

The Custodies don't have a Primarch and neither do the witch hunters... I have read most of the Horus Heresy series and got the impression that all of the Primarchs were found but something happened that even the remaining Primarchs were forbidden to talk about, if you have read The Thousand Sons then you may know what I'm on about...


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## Angel of Blood

ToxicWarFish said:


> The Custodies don't have a Primarch and neither do the witch hunters... I have read most of the Horus Heresy series and got the impression that all of the Primarchs were found but something happened that even the remaining Primarchs were forbidden to talk about, if you have read The Thousand Sons then you may know what I'm on about...


Well the Witch Hunters, by which I assume you mean the Sisters of Battle, aren't astartes, so of course they have no primarch, and the Custodes aren't astartes either, they are similar but of a much earlier and (sone would argue) a more efficient and effective process. 

And yes, all the primarchs were found and reunited with their legions, but then were both wiped from records because of different incidents. And they were likely destroyed by the Space Wolves.


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## no pain no gain

*Hmm*

Well, by adding two and two together I think it's safe to say that one of missing Primarchs was censored and subsequently killed by the Emperor for thinking himself superior and by using "dark powers". 

Mayhaps Magnus wasn't the first Primarch Tzeentch tried to snare?

It also seems likely that the Space Wolves participated in meeting out the justice.


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## Angel of Blood

We have absolutely no evidence to suggest they did anything if the sort, so its not a safe bet at all really.


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## Ferrus Manus

Well the thing is i believe the two missing primarchs were not influenced/chosen by chaos what so ever and nor did they follow horus in his heresy, SPOILER for FIRST HERETIC: because in the First Heretic book Argel Tal is shown visions by the demon of the falling primarch pods. These primarchs are the supposed chosen by the chaos gods and only the pods of ten primarchs are shown, the 9 known heretics and Lion'el Johnson (him being chosen by chaos is a totally other discussion :grin. So it must be that chaos had no interest in the two missing primarchs otherwise why would the demon be restricted to hiding the visions of the two missing primarchs, i mean Argel would have probably already known their existence and mabye even met them.


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## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> We have absolutely no evidence to suggest they did anything if the sort, so its not a safe bet at all really.


True, it's not a safe bet. So in that respect my formulation was a bit off.

BUT, if Mortarion wasn't referring to one of his brothers, then who would he possibly be referring to... :wink:


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## Darkoan

Ah yes, Ferrus Manus (the poster) above reminds me of something very relevant - the visions afforded to Argel in TFH suggest the 9 known and 1 'Lion-esque' Primarchs had been targeted by The Evil 4. So as to suggest the 2 missing were NOT expunged for heresy (at least not of the Warp-loving kind).
I mean come on, 'The First Heretic' was named just that. Surely the BL wouldnt use the word First as a red herring, hiding the fact that there was in fact another first?? 

So I offer a further suggestion to my already long crack-pot list of why the Emperor wanted the 2 missing generals out of sight and out of mind.

Could be that neither of them wanted to wage battle at all! Alien sympathisers? Or perhaps simply 30th millenium versions of Jesus with accompanying pacifist proclivities? The Big E created the Primarchs as war machines as he quite clearly spells out. And it would not do well to have pacifist ideas spread amongst the Primarchs. Perhaps one of the missing was a pacifist, and persuaded the other missing to be one also and relinquish the Great Crusade. 
The Emperors reaction may have been something like 'Holy Terra, this pacifism and non-war-mongering was cute at first, but now its contagious! Time to kill and expunge. Now which of my sons would be up for the task...'

And if you dont buy that story, heres my fav alternative. The 2 missing Primarchs found out the Emperor wanted to reopen the Webway gate, destroy the chaos gods and set himself up as the lone Warp god for eternity. Now THAT would have warranted not only the 2 missing Primarch's death, but also expunging their records so no evidence of their discovery could be retro-fitted and 'Sherlock Holmed'. It would also fit in nicely to how the Lost Primarchs' legion were then subsequently transferred to the UM (provided they didnt also know), rather than they being destroyed for having a 'connection' to their Primarch.


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## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Darkoan said:


> Ah yes, Ferrus Manus (the poster) above reminds me of something very relevant - the visions afforded to Argel in TFH suggest the 9 known and 1 'Lion-esque' Primarchs had been targeted by The Evil 4. So as to suggest the 2 missing were NOT expunged for heresy (at least not of the Warp-loving kind).
> I mean come on, 'The First Heretic' was named just that. Surely the BL wouldnt use the word First as a red herring, hiding the fact that there was in fact another first??
> 
> So I offer a further suggestion to my already long crack-pot list of why the Emperor wanted the 2 missing generals out of sight and out of mind.
> 
> Could be that neither of them wanted to wage battle at all! Alien sympathisers? Or perhaps simply 30th millenium versions of Jesus with accompanying pacifist proclivities? The Big E created the Primarchs as war machines as he quite clearly spells out. And it would not do well to have pacifist ideas spread amongst the Primarchs. Perhaps one of the missing was a pacifist, and persuaded the other missing to be one also and relinquish the Great Crusade.
> The Emperors reaction may have been something like 'Holy Terra, this pacifism and non-war-mongering was cute at first, but now its contagious! Time to kill and expunge. Now which of my sons would be up for the task...'
> 
> And if you dont buy that story, heres my fav alternative. The 2 missing Primarchs found out the Emperor wanted to reopen the Webway gate, destroy the chaos gods and set himself up as the lone Warp god for eternity. Now THAT would have warranted not only the 2 missing Primarch's death, but also expunging their records so no evidence of their discovery could be retro-fitted and 'Sherlock Holmed'. It would also fit in nicely to how the Lost Primarchs' legion were then subsequently transferred to the UM (provided they didnt also know), rather than they being destroyed for having a 'connection' to their Primarch.


It has been specifically stated (by Malcador, if I remember correctly) that the incidents (purgings) were unrelated to each other.


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## Darkoan

no pain no gain said:


> It has been specifically stated (by Malcador, if I remember correctly) that the incidents (purgings) were unrelated to each other.


Interesting, I have not come across that one, I dont doubt you for a second, source on that one?

Well, I suppose one Primarch for the first suggestion, and the other in the alternative. Plausible, but for any objections out there? Anyone?


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## DeathJester921

Perhaps the "Lost" primarch was killed while he was losing the majority of his legion in battle. I read an earlier post saying it would cause a blow to morale, and I say that I agree with this statement. Perhaps this Engagement was like Ullanor, but with this primarch and his legion fighting alone. Perhaps to prove his loyalty after a certain incident involving the "Forgotten" primarch and his legion. Just speculation, but it does seem like its at least a semi-sound explanation.

EDIT: Maybe not, I don't know. None of us do, nor will we find out any time soon.


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## no pain no gain

*Hmm*



Darkoan said:


> Interesting, I have not come across that one, I dont doubt you for a second, source on that one?
> 
> Well, I suppose one Primarch for the first suggestion, and the other in the alternative. Plausible, but for any objections out there? Anyone?


It appears I was mistaken. It was not stated by Malcador; it was stated as fact by the author (Dan Abnett) in _"The Lightning Tower"_. 

Cheers


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## Angel of Blood

Indeed its mentioned in quite a few sources i think actually


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