# Can the Imperium surive without the Emperor??



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

deep down......... do you guys think, if the emperor did die, could the imperium still surive and live on.. i mean........ with all the space marines that would fight, and the custodes, no reason to guard would fight side by side with the astartes, and we know the custodes are superior to the astartes......

or once the emperor dies, the imperium dies.............


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Once the Emperor dies the Imperium dies. Regardless of how many countless regiments of Imperial Guard or how many hundreds of thousands of worlds the Imperium maintains. No matter how many Astartes, or how many ships of the Imperial Navy, ultimately its solely the Emperor keeping the Imperium together.

Without him there is no Imperium, only Chaos.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hmmm, I dont disagree with ya CotE on much, but Humanity and Eldar did swell before the Emperor. Yes the Eldar made Slannesh and fell, however there battles with Nids, Orks, and Humanity takes more toll on them than Chaos. Humanity without the Emperors grand design or Astronimica had devolpe Technology that far outdoes what the Imperium possesses now. 

I dont really see why the Emperor is needed when all he provides is a lighthouse in the Warp. Sure people can say he keeps the warp at bay, but any Chaos God can overpower the Emperor in Warp might. I put the Hive Mind against the Emperors power since it blacks out the Emperors light. So hes overated, in my humble opponion. (god knows some will crucify this statement...:secret

The Necs. Eldar, Orks, Tau, and Nids have all learn to use the warp without the Emperors watchful eyes. Their Races have made contact with Warp beings and still stand (for the most part) uncurroptable. Yet Humanity cant possibly withstand. I think civilization led by Astartes would more than withstand such dark times. I think Mechanicum do well in such a setting too. Humanity will survive. Chaos would run a bit more rampant, but humanity would deal with it. One thing for sure, they wont be shooting all xenos on sight. Without the Impaerial Cult they may even prosper.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Thats just it though Warlock in Training; no Emperor means no astranomicon, means no way of for ships of the Imperium to navigate through the warp beyond short hops. Yes, the dark age of technology did not see use of the Emperor as a beacon, but the people of the time were also unable to cope with the warp storms and rise of psykers caused by the coming birth of Slaanesh.

Hell even the Emperor could not begin his great crusade outside of Sol until after Slaanesh was born and the warp storms throughout the galaxy ended.


If the Emperor dies, then whatever protection he is granting through his will dies with him. That means the hole in the material realm that would otherwise allow the very essence of the warp, and all manner of daemons, would no longer be blocked off and Terra would be lost to the Imperium. With his death, the most significant world of the Imperium dies, after that, how long do you think the rest of the galaxy spanning empire is going to last when Terra is gone, the leadership of nearly all the Imperium wiped out, and no more light of the Emperor to use as a guide through the warp?


Its exactly what the Emperor didn't want; being set up as a god and thousands of years of decline mean that there is an over-reliance on a single being. As Child-of-the-Emperor said, the Emperor dies, the Imperium goes with him simply because of the way it is set up and how things have occurred.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't care if this statement is "crucified". It said in the codex that the emporer was mortally or fatally wounded by Horus. Both basically mean the same thing, so the Emp is already dead no matter what he's hooked up to. So I believe the Imperium will live on as it has since Horus struck the Emp down.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Mortally and fatally wounded do not mean dead though; they mean the damage done is or was so bad that there is no chance of recovery, without some form of help the person wounded so will die.

The Emperor has nearly been dead for ten thousand years, not actually dead. The Imperium has not gone on this long without him.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Or has it? I mean really what evidence is their he still lives. You know very well the 1000 Psyker Souls is what empowers the Astronimica thingy, so maybe the Emperor is really dead and the Psykers Souls are is the fire that powers the lighthouse. Their is plenty fluff from a traitors view that the Emp is dead. But the mass loyaltist view say otherwise. Hmmmm... what about the SoB faith? We all know the Emp as a god is BULLSHIT! However the SOB use Faith as a weapon, hell the game reflect this. Hmmmm.... whos to say.

Again though before the Big E, all was well, but after Slannesh 1 of 4 Warp Gods, is the birth to break the physical universe back? Really? I dont know if the Universe will simply collopase if one Alpha Psyker dies. The Imperium will break, yes, but Humanity will go on.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yes the Eldar made Slannesh and fell, however there battles with Nids, Orks, and Humanity takes more toll on them than Chaos.


Slaanesh constantly drains the souls of all Eldar, and consumes their souls upon death (if unprotected). The Eldar's wars against alien races may not do them any favours, but let us not forget the reason why the Eldar are teetering on the edge of extinction, and why they live their lives as they do; Chaos.



Warlock in Training said:


> Humanity without the Emperors grand design or Astronimica had devolpe Technology that far outdoes what the Imperium possesses now.


Yet for all their wonderous technology they still fell prey to Chaos (via the Age of Strife). The Emperor is/was the only being capable of guiding humanity as it develops as a psychic race and protect the species as a whole from the depridations of Chaos. 



Warlock in Training said:


> I dont really see why the Emperor is needed when all he provides is a lighthouse in the Warp. Sure people can say he keeps the warp at bay, but any Chaos God can overpower the Emperor in Warp might.


Without the Astronomican there is no Imperium, simple. Without the Emperor there is no Astronomican (or at least nothing to guide and utilise it). The Emperor is even noted as protecting the entire human species from the 'worst depridations of Chaos' - he is the shield and protector of mankind, without him mankind is alone, scattered and leaderless - utterly helpless before the dark gods of Chaos.



Warlock in Training said:


> The Necs. Eldar, Orks, Tau, and Nids have all learn to use the warp without the Emperors watchful eyes. Their Races have made contact with Warp beings and still stand (for the most part) uncurroptable. Yet Humanity cant possibly withstand. I think civilization led by Astartes would more than withstand such dark times. I think Mechanicum do well in such a setting too. Humanity will survive. Chaos would run a bit more rampant, but humanity would deal with it. One thing for sure, they wont be shooting all xenos on sight. Without the Impaerial Cult they may even prosper.


The Necrons are anti-warp, the Eldar are already a fully evolved psychic race and have restrictions and the path system in place for protection, the Orks are bound by a gesalt-consciousness and are single-minded, the Tau have no major warp presence, and the Tyranids are guided by the Hive Mind. Humanity on the other hand, is slowly evolving towards its psychic potential without any protection or failsafe in place apart from the Emperor. And Chaos is deeply invested and entrenched in humanity more than any other race.

Also take into account that two codices specifically state that when the Emperor dies, the Warp will engulf the material realm.


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## imntdead (Apr 21, 2008)

No one seems to give a simple yes or no answer to this question. 

Yes if the Emperor dies the Imperium dies with him and its his powerful psychic mind that keeps the astronomican going. Unfortunately the astronomicon is also failing as there are none capable of understanding its complexity. One day the Astronomicon will fail or the Emperor will die; but I think that day is a very long ways off in the future and if that time comes I believe it would change the very face of the army's of 40K and we will have a new table top war game to play.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Slaanesh constantly drains the souls of all Eldar, and consumes their souls upon death (if unprotected). The Eldar's wars against alien races may not do them any favours, but let us not forget the reason why the Eldar are teetering on the edge of extinction, and why they live their lives as they do; Chaos.


Yes, and yet their still major players in the scheme of things, and Harlequins are immune to Slannesh touch. Hmmmm...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yet for all their wonderous technology they still fell prey to Chaos (via the Age of Strife). The Emperor is/was the only being capable of guiding humanity as it develops as a psychic race and protect the species as a whole from the depridations of Chaos.


I dont know, Chaos was more Rampant, agreed, however you know full well that their is ALOT of Warp Activity now, evey BL book I read have Daemon Summoning, Alpha Psyker corruption, CSM raiding , or Traitor Guard uprising. Its everywhere now, hes not doing a good job after 1000 years of Choas doing its thing. Ofcourse its easy to argue that with the Big E dead means it would get worse. On a side note, Things like the Interexe (bad with Spelling theses things, from Fulgrim), that Human/Xenos Race that Horus ecountered (before his accident on Davin), and even that last planet the LWs speahead (the one with the false Emperor) only had the one place touch by Chaos, the rest was solid. These few civilazations show that Chaos didnt touch and destroy everything during the Dark times before the Crusade. just saying.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Without the Astronomican there is no Imperium, simple. Without the Emperor there is no Astronomican (or at least nothing to guide and utilise it). The Emperor is even noted as protecting the entire human species from the 'worst depridations of Chaos' - he is the shield and protector of mankind, without him mankind is alone, scattered and leaderless - utterly helpless before the dark gods of Chaos.


Is it me or does this so scream Dictatorship like Kim Jung whats his name :laugh: Seriously, Before he was struck by Horus he did none of this. The HH novels and Primarchs own memories reflect that. Only now he sits on the Porclean Throne does he keep the bad things away? Didnt he even tried to bargain with them :grin: I just find it funny that he did none of this before and only now is it crucial after he nearly dead.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Necrons are anti-warp, the Eldar are already a fully evolved psychic race and have restrictions and the path system in place for protection, the Orks are bound by a gesalt-consciousness and are single-minded, the Tau have no major warp presence, and the Tyranids are guided by the Hive Mind. Humanity on the other hand, is slowly evolving towards its psychic potential without any protection or failsafe in place apart from the Emperor. And Chaos is deeply invested and entrenched in humanity more than any other race..


All true, however if Humanity reached that lvl as the Eldar have... Sounds like a interesting topic no?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also take into account that two codices specifically state that when the Emperor dies, the Warp will engulf the material realm.


This is from (my side) Chaos View.



I could say honestly Chaos is the strongest force out there. Just that the Big E isnt the end all for humanity.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Imperium is ruled by an emperor, no emperor no imperium.

However, I dont think they would tell the rest of the universe even if he did die. The high lords all know he is the rock the Imperium is built on, so i think it would just be a secret.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yes, and yet their still major players in the scheme of things, and Harlequins are immune to Slannesh touch. Hmmmm...


Do you really consider them major players on a galactic scale? I don't.



Warlock in Training said:


> I dont know, Chaos was more Rampant, agreed, however you know full well that their is ALOT of Warp Activity now, evey BL book I read have Daemon Summoning, Alpha Psyker corruption, CSM raiding , or Traitor Guard uprising. Its everywhere now, hes not doing a good job after 1000 years of Choas doing its thing. Ofcourse its easy to argue that with the Big E dead means it would get worse. On a side note, Things like the Interexe (bad with Spelling theses things, from Fulgrim), that Human/Xenos Race that Horus ecountered (before his accident on Davin), and even that last planet the LWs speahead (the one with the false Emperor) only had the one place touch by Chaos, the rest was solid. These few civilazations show that Chaos didnt touch and destroy everything during the Dark times before the Crusade. just saying.


The Age of Strife where ever it is described is always made out to be one of the (if not _the_) worst ages of Mankind. Granted some colonies thrived during that period, but they are very few and far between. Mankind was described several times (and even by the Emperor himself in _The Last Church_) as on the edge of extinction during the Age of Strife.



Warlock in Training said:


> Is it me or does this so scream Dictatorship like Kim Jung whats his name :laugh: Seriously, Before he was struck by Horus he did none of this. The HH novels and Primarchs own memories reflect that. Only now he sits on the Porclean Throne does he keep the bad things away? Didnt he even tried to bargain with them :grin: I just find it funny that he did none of this before and only now is it crucial after he nearly dead.


Actually, the Emperor did run the Astronomican during the Great Crusade. And also presumably still protected humanity from the worst depridations of Chaos pre-Heresy.



Warlock in Training said:


> All true, however if Humanity reached that lvl as the Eldar have... Sounds like a interesting topic no?


Every generation, as humanity moves another step towards their full psychic potential the threat of Chaos grows ever stronger. And there is one reason why humanity as a whole hasn't already plunged into a nightmare age of slavery and servitude to the Warp; the Emperor.

In fact one only has to look at the Fall of the Eldar to see the consequences of failure.



Warlock in Training said:


> This is from (my side) Chaos View.


Actually the two codices that directly state that are _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ (granted thats a Chaos Codex!) and _Codex: Imperialis_ (which isn't a Chaos codex). And not that it would really matter if they both were Chaos codices, each codex is written from the perspective of the omnipresent narrator - its just that each codex emphasises the threat posed by that particular race, each are equally true though.



Warlock in Training said:


> I could say honestly Chaos is the strongest force out there. Just that the Big E isnt the end all for humanity.


Im afraid all evidence points to the Emperor's death being the end for the Imperium.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, it will splinter off into smaller multi-system entities but nothing on the scale of the imperium.


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## Delta1 (Apr 5, 2009)

the only way i could see for the imperium to survive without the emperor, is if they stop being so afraid/paranoid of technology and create a new way to travel super fast through space without the use of the dangerous warp. if the imperium can accomplish this, then they would probably do pretty well without the emperor. imagine if the imperium wasnt paranoid about tech; you could have hundreds of spare terminator armor with ranged weaponry as powerful as the tau's, millions of more baneblades, more powerful lasguns, faster powerfists, etc. i see that as the only option for success for the imperium if the emperor dies.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

The only way the Imperium can survive without the Emperor is if, A) they get over the "Emperor dies= chaos engulfs materium" thing, and B) They can come up with FTL travel that doesn't rely on the Astronomicon. No amount of scientifc advancement, self-awareness, or conviction is going to help the Imperium if chaos engulfs the materium.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Obviously when the Emperor dies Terra goes with him, and possibly the rest of the Sol system- that alone would be crippling for the Imperium.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It says that when Emperor dies chaos will engulf the galaxy.

Just like that?

My first impression when I read this was that it would be a gradual decline as humanity descended into leaderless anarchy.

Then again, the fall of the eldar happened pretty much "just like that." :scare:


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## vortex_13 (Apr 17, 2010)

The problem wouldn't actually being the Emperor dying. The real problem would be that if the Emperor did die it would be because the golden throne failed. Without the throne powering the astronomicon there would be no warp travel and the Imperium would crumble.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And without the Golden Throne Terra, and possibly the entire Sol System, would be destroyed.


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## LucarioNid (Apr 24, 2010)

(Sorry if this has been said before)

If the emperor is physically dead, then surely his willpower will live on? Also, If he's near death, and Guilliman is healing, Guilliman will be able to rule. Maybe the emperor will rape someone/make a clone of himself to rule after he dies. 

This is how humans are superior on earth in modern-day: We are intelligent, have long life spans and good breeding abilities.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If the Emperor properly dies why would his willpower live on? Guilliman is dead and even if he wasn't he wouldn't have any more power than another High Lord.


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## Liam Eraser (May 6, 2010)

The Imperium is barely surviving as it is, the Astartes are the only thing keeping the Imperium in line, without the fear of retribution of secession then no one would want to stick around, without the Emperor the SM would probably scatter and probably all go to Chaos because the only thing they respect is the Emperor.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I doubt they'd go to Chaos, they obey the Emperor- they're his loyal servants, it's not a case of respect- if the Emperor were to perish then, in my opinion, the Astartes would fight all te harder in an attempt to honour the Emperor by ensuring the survival of his realm- futile but well intentioned.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

The only reason the Imperium hasn't conquered the galaxy is the ultramarines, particularly Guilliman. He is literally completely and utterly to blame for the imperium being in ruin.

If the astartes could actually gain more than a token force, then everything would be fine (untill the next heresy, of course). However, running the risk of another heresy is waaaaaay better than cutting your most elite fighting force completely short.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baltar said:


> The only reason the Imperium hasn't conquered the galaxy is the ultramarines, particularly Guilliman. He is literally completely and utterly to blame for the imperium being in ruin.
> 
> If the astartes could actually gain more than a token force, then everything would be fine (untill the next heresy, of course). However, running the risk of another heresy is waaaaaay better than cutting your most elite fighting force completely short.


So you think that if the Astartes organisations remained as 'Legions' that everything would be hunky-dory and the Imperium would rule in peace?

During the Great Crusade, the Astartes Legions needed to be of that size and heavily equipped, they forefronted the Imperial expansion. And just as the Emperor planned to disband the Astartes Legion when the Great Crusade came to an end, Guilliman also did - just under different circumstances.

Remember it wasn't only the size of the Astartes Forces that the codex changed, but also their role. No longer do they act as massed armies, pushing forwards into unknown space to conquer the galaxy. They act as rapid relief and strike forces, the hammer against the anvil that is the Imperial Guard and Navy. There is no need for them to be any larger than Chapter sized now.

And take into account it was also the sensible and reasonable thing to do. If they had remained as Legions how many would still be loyal in M41 I wonder?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm not accepting any of the "strike force" mumbo jumbo. They are the elite soliders they always were, and they form a main army just as well as they form a strike force.

The only thnig holding them back is the codex astartes. If they could all form legion sizes, then these pissy little problems would be nothing but an afterthought. A legion strength number of marines can take any comers in 40k. Necrons, nids, orks - you name it, they can kill it.

Chapters in sets limited to 1k - they are all going to get their asses handed to them one day. Pick another race, with the exception of the eldar, and they have the potential to rape the imperium.

Make all the chapters legion strength, and I couldn't think of a race that could take them on.

All Guilliman's fault. Fucking smurfs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baltar said:


> Make all the chapters legion strength, and I couldn't think of a race that could take them on.


You do realise that Chapters can still pool their resources and coordinate their actions in a campaign. Look at the Black Crusades or the Wars for Armageddon, several Astartes Chapters working together, essentially making a Legion sized force. Heck look at the Astartes Praeses, a brotherhood of Chapters - essentially forming a Legion sized force tasked with guardianship of the passes from the Eye of Terror. 

But its not that mustering a Legion sized force of Astartes is a trump card, or an automatic win button.

Essentially what im saying is that, Legion sized forces do still muster and take active part in many engagements - but their still not enough to guarantee victory.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

The evidence speaks for itself.

The space marine legions went from unbeatable, practically invincible forces smashing its way through the galaxy, just going from world to world assraping any enemy it finds, to being some shitty little "strike force" in M41., that is reduced to being awesome in thought, but kinda lame in action, in that, yes, the force is full of awesome warriors, but there are only enough of them to "hold back" the tide of shit, rather than ever actually beat anything like they used to.

It's like Guilliman basically just got up and said "TIRED OF WINNING ALL THE TIME NAO - TIME TO MAKE EVERYTHING A DRAW FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY". Restricted all legions to 1k, a nice round number, so that they can fight fairly well... _only just_ win all of the battles they get into, in prime heroic fashion, and then fuck off back to their ship/world to sulk about the good times during the crusades, while waiting for the next _only just_ beatable alien/chaos force to turn up and hand their asses to them. Repeat the process continuously, and you have 40k. Except for that fact that some of the forces coming would easily beat some of the chapters, so GW will no doubt pull some miracle heroic event out of the smurfs asses (or perhaps another chapter) and make everything all better again, just so that the situation can go back to being the status quo of 1k size chapters _only just_ winning everything, rather than legions strength badasses tearing around the galaxy winning every time.

Guilliman FTL.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baltar said:


> The evidence speaks for itself.
> 
> The space marine legions went from unbeatable, practically invincible forces smashing its way through the galaxy, just going from world to world assraping any enemy it finds, to being some shitty little "strike force" in M41., that is reduced to being awesome in thought, but kinda lame in action, in that, yes, the force is full of awesome warriors, but there are only enough of them to "hold back" the tide of shit, rather than ever actually beat anything like they used to.


A lot has changed since the Great Crusade. The Imperium is no way near as secure, united or organised as it was when the Emperor walked among men. Chaos is rampant and omnipresent, more Xenos threats have emerged, and the Imperium is on the verge of collapse.

The reason for Legion sized forces during the Great Crusade, was because every fibre of the Imperium's being was focused on the offensive - pushing further and further towards the edge of the galaxy. In M41 (for a number of reasons) that has drastically changed, the Imperium is fighting fully on the defensive - using every assest in an attempt to hold what is has. Strike-Force sized Astartes Chapters I would argue are much more effective in this environment than any permenant Legion sized force would be; rapidly responding to hostile incursions - where most of the time even a Chapter sized force of Astartes is enough to swing the battle into Imperial favour. And also let us not forget that even during the Great Crusade, each Astartes Legion would only rarely muster its full numbers and strength, detachments often being spread out across areas of the galaxy. 

And also take into account what I said in my last post, Legion sized forces can still be mustered in M41 - and do fairly often. So the Codex hasn't really made a major difference in the number of Astartes that can be mustered as a coherent force.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

If the Emperor finally kicked the bucket that would be it for the Imperium but not necessarily for humanity. Those lucky enough to be protected by SM chapters would probably be ok, given enough time and the realisation that Terran rule was over and support just isn't going to happen I think the chapters would pretty much throw the rule book in the bin and would rapidly grow to legion size and beyond.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The imperium could survive without the emperor easily, if they would get of their lazy asses and develop some way not dependent on the astronomicon for interplanetary travel.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> The imperium could survive without the emperor easily, if they would get of their lazy asses and develop some way not dependent on the astronomicon for interplanetary travel.


You don't buy into the 'No Emperor = Galaxy engulfed by the Warp' theory then?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

No since if that was the case then it would have been engulfed before the emperor was born since the warp was around well before the emperor was born, and humanity and the warp will more then likely exist long after he finally dies.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Or being able to get by without any other institution on Terra, including the Navigator houses, High Lords, half of the major orders of the Adepta Sororitas (with the highest ranking Cardinals of the Ministorum) and that's if the Daemons only destroy Terra. Imagine the destruction if they spread throughout the solar system.

Humanity might survive as a species but the empire of man would be over.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> No since if that was the case then it would have been engulfed before the emperor was born since the warp was around well before the emperor was born, and humanity and the warp will more then likely exist long after he finally dies.


Who says the Emperor was born? Who says he hasn't been around since the dawn of humanity? Or even the dawn of time?

And also the Warp was much less chaotic in the millennia prior to the Great Crusade/Fall of the Eldar, at such a time its logical to assume the Warp wasn't in a position or able to dominate and engulf the material, but it apparently is in M41.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Still going with a no on the Imperium surviving once the Emperor leaves the stage. Like I've said before, like Baron Spikey (at least I think you said the following) and others have said; when the Emperor goes, his barrier keeping the warp from bleeding into the heart of the Imperial palace and letting daemons roam free on Terra ends. Terra will be lost, consumed and turned into a daemon world where attacks by all the forces of chaos can be made from the heart of the Imperium. If such a fate occurred to Terra, it would not be long before Mars suffered the same fate. With the heart of the Imperium and Mechanicus torn out, how long will the Imperium be able to stay together before those with greedy ambition attempt to seize power for themselves, carve out their own little empires?


Chaos will consume the Imperium when the Emperor dies, not simply chaos from the warp or its followers, but from the Imperium tearing itself apart. One part trying to seize power while another attempts to hold things together.


When I heard that chaos will engulf the Imperium bit; it was not chaos from the warp doing it that I first thought of. Rather chaos in general; the chaos that would come from a God dieing, the chaos of the power vacuum, of struggling to keep things together, of trying to live on.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

CotE: Actually, the Emperor was born some time around 8000 AD, to normal human parents. But there was one unique thing about him. You see, before the Emperor, there were a group of humans that had unusual abilities and were the secret guides of mankind. They all had the ability to reincarnate themselves after death, so they could continue their work. However, eventually, that ability began to fail them and in the end, they decided to die together and reincarnate themselves into a single being, with their combined knowledge and power, the Emperor. So the Emperor himself has only been guiding man since then.

Also, I've noticed that some people have been saying that the Emperor has done a terrible job running the Imperium since the HH, but let me point something out, the Emperor hasn't been running the Imperium since the HH, the High Lords of Terra are responsible for the day-to-day running of the Imperium. And even during the later years of the Great Crusade, there was the Council of Terra, the precursor to the High Lords, who handled the bureaucratic matters of running the Imperium.

Currently, the Emperor maintains the Astronimican Beacon as mentioned earlier, he soul-binds the Astropaths, keeps the failed human Webway Gate closed, holds back the worst of Chaos from seeping in and proves aid to his warriors across the galaxy, often in the form of miracles. Without him, the beacon would fail, cutting the Imperium apart as they would have no way to safely send large armies across the galaxy to where they're needed. Eventually, they would run out of Astropaths, completely severing the Imperium as they would have no way to communicate across the galaxy. The Imperium of Man would fall and a Second Age of Strife would begin.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> CotE: Actually, the Emperor was born some time around 8000 AD, to normal human parents. But there was one unique thing about him. You see, before the Emperor, there were a group of humans that had unusual abilities and were the secret guides of mankind. They all had the ability to reincarnate themselves after death, so they could continue their work. However, eventually, that ability began to fail them and in the end, they decided to die together and reincarnate themselves into a single being, with their combined knowledge and power, the Emperor. So the Emperor himself has only been guiding man since then.


I'm sure CotE is sick of saying this by now, so I'll do it for him: that's just a theory. The official background of the Emperor is simply "unknown."


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> When I heard that chaos will engulf the Imperium bit; it was not chaos from the warp doing it that I first thought of. Rather chaos in general; the chaos that would come from a God dieing, the chaos of the power vacuum, of struggling to keep things together, of trying to live on.


The wording is very specific though. _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ refers to '...and the Realm of Chaos will engulf the galaxy' - the Realm of Chaos being a phrase that is often used to refer to the Warp.

_Codex: Imperialis_ is also very specific in it being the Warp/Realm of Chaos literally engulfing the galaxy and the immaterial merging with the material, rather than Chaos in a power vacuum sense of the word.



Akatsuki13 said:


> CotE: Actually, the Emperor was born some time around 8000 AD, to normal human parents. But there was one unique thing about him. You see, before the Emperor, there were a group of humans that had unusual abilities and were the secret guides of mankind. They all had the ability to reincarnate themselves after death, so they could continue their work. However, eventually, that ability began to fail them and in the end, they decided to die together and reincarnate themselves into a single being, with their combined knowledge and power, the Emperor. So the Emperor himself has only been guiding man since then.


Yes I am well aware of that _theory_. But thats all it is, a theory. (Thanks _K3k3000_ by the way! )



Akatsuki13 said:


> Also, I've noticed that some people have been saying that the Emperor has done a terrible job running the Imperium since the HH, but let me point something out, the Emperor hasn't been running the Imperium since the HH, the High Lords of Terra are responsible for the day-to-day running of the Imperium. And even during the later years of the Great Crusade, there was the Council of Terra, the precursor to the High Lords, who handled the bureaucratic matters of running the Imperium.


Im not aware that anyone has directly said that the Emperor directly ruled the Imperium post-Heresy.



Akatsuki13 said:


> The Imperium of Man would fall and a Second Age of Strife would begin.


Indeed. And all evidence points to it being on a scale much worse than the first age of strife.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The wording is very specific though. _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ refers to '...and the Realm of Chaos will engulf the galaxy' - the Realm of Chaos being a phrase that is often used to refer to the Warp.


Bah! See thats whats terrible, it would make sense if it was not so specific, because then it could refer to both general chaos and the realm of chaos. But then they have to go and make it specific like that so that the Emperor going away heralds doom via the warp and all of chaos within it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

If the Emperor dies then Chaos would engulf the Imperium. As I said before the Specie of Man would live on. Just shattered like the Eldar. However Chaos would not right there and then engulf the Galaxy. The Ctan are reawaken and running loose, the Eldar are still fighting the good fight, Orks still contorl more space than any other race, Tau remain untouch in the real space by Warp threats, and Nids will continue to encroach. Chaos Gods would have better feeding thru the massive surge of worshippers, but the Big E means very little in the scheme of things for the rest of the universe.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> If the Emperor dies then Chaos would engulf the Imperium. As I said before the Specie of Man would live on. Just shattered like the Eldar. However Chaos would not right there and then engulf the Galaxy. The Ctan are reawaken and running loose, the Eldar are still fighting the good fight, Orks still contorl more space than any other race, Tau remain untouch in the real space by Warp threats, and Nids will continue to encroach. Chaos Gods would have better feeding thru the massive surge of worshippers, but the Big E means very little in the scheme of things for the rest of the universe.


I think chaos would engulf the whole of the galaxy if the Emperor died. In the warp, the effect chaos can have on the materium is limited. Demons can only attack in finite numbers. Psykers have restrictions on just what they can do. Technology that can sever the connection between the two worlds could be developed. But if the warp and the materium were to merge? Nothing, not the eldar at the height of their power, not a united ork race or a full tyranid invasion, not every C'tan who ever lived, would be able to put up a fight for long against an endless wave of demons lead by virtually omnipotent gods. I suspect at that point anything chaos wanted dead would die.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I don't think that Chaos would completely seep into the material world for one simple reason, the C'tan. The C'tan are the polar opposite of the Chaos Gods. While the CG are gods of the Immaterium, the C'tan are the gods of the Materium. Neither can live in the realm of the other. While the CG try to break the walls between the Warp and real space, so they spill out and bleed into each other so that they can dominate everything, the C'tan seek to sever the links between the two so they have no one to challenge their rule over the galaxy. And the C'tan do have the technology to affect the Warp and contain it, not all of it, but enough to stop Chaos from entirely consuming the galaxy.

If the Emperor dies, it would shatter the Imperium into countless smaller empires, ruled by the strongest individuals, but much easier prey for other powers. Abaddon would rally all of the Chaos forces and strike at Terra itself, but once Terra fell, they'd most likely battle amongst themselves to crave out their own empires. In the Eastern Fringe, those worlds on the border of the Tau Empire would like join the Empire to better survive, so the Tau would expand. Finally, the fragments of the Imperium and man that would survive such a time would be the Forge Worlds and the Space Marine Chapters with homeworlds far from Terra, the Eye of Terror, or the Maelstrom, and the neighboring systems. The Space Marine and/or the Adeptus Mechanicus leaders of those areas would create their own little empires in the image of the Imperium. The Age of Apostasy showed us that the two organizations will protect and rule their small pockets of the galaxy when the Imperium experienced that time of great inner turmoil and strife.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I don't think that Chaos would completely seep into the material world for one simple reason, the C'tan. The C'tan are the polar opposite of the Chaos Gods. While the CG are gods of the Immaterium, the C'tan are the gods of the Materium. Neither can live in the realm of the other. While the CG try to break the walls between the Warp and real space, so they spill out and bleed into each other so that they can dominate everything, the C'tan seek to sever the links between the two so they have no one to challenge their rule over the galaxy. And the C'tan do have the technology to affect the Warp and contain it, not all of it, but enough to stop Chaos from entirely consuming the galaxy.


There is a basic problem with trying to reach an equilibrium between the Chaos Gods and the C'tan though. _LordLucan_ put it nicely in the Chaos Gods versus C'tan Thread:



LordLucan said:


> The bottom line is. The C'tan are easily the most powerful matter-based beings in 40K, bar none. They can pretty much do anything that is possible. C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality.
> 
> The chaos Gods are not constrained by the limits of reality. They are the most powerful force in 40K, because while the C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality, the chaos gods can break the laws of reality. There is no way to control or constrain them.


And my post from that thread may be partly relavent:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods are known to:
> 
> Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14. Daemonic Incursions: 'For the most part, the Chaos Gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals. They are only concerned with the eternal flow of emotion across aeons.'
> 
> ...


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Doesnt the Emperor communicates with his followers through tarot-cards, visions and Saints that he's given extra powers of the forces of Chaos? Faith does matter strongly.


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## Mizr (May 2, 2010)

Let the corpse god die, the material universe could use some spicing up. A little Chaos never hurt anyone


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Believe that mizr!


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

CotE: You raise a good point there. It's hard to say what exactly would happen. We don't know how many Necrons there in the galaxy, nor how powerful the C'tan and their technology are. Plus we also have to consider the Deceiver and what he would do.

I'm not saying that would utterly push back the forces of the Chaos, just that are enough of a force to hold back parts of it. Also, I don't believe the Chaos Gods care enough to work together to completely overrun the galaxy with Chaos and the Warp. They would be the dominant power in the galaxy, but they wouldn't control the entire galaxy or even as much as the Imperium currently does. The Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom and other Warp Storms would expand, new ones would appear like during the Age of Strife. Terra and Segmentum Solar would fall to Chaos, but after they did and like I said before, it's quite likely that having delivered the deathblow to the hated Imperium and throwing the galaxy into chaos and strife, the Chaos Gods would turn back to their Great Game while their forces battle amongst themselves in the galaxy. The Chaos Gods don't really need to conquer the galaxy, just that the 'eternal flow of emotion' continue.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is a basic problem with trying to reach an equilibrium between the Chaos Gods and the C'tan though. _LordLucan_ put it nicely in the Chaos Gods versus C'tan Thread:


Honestly I highly doubt the Great Game would be put on hold after the Emps Death. Total Chaos control on the Galaxy would take all four Chaos Gods to put effort into. With Stories like Soul Drinkers where Tzeentch DP ruins Galaxy control plans of Nurgle DP applies here. Lets face it, the Great Game would expand, however the other Races would still be able to hold their turf. Add in the Ctan who have the Tech to deall off the Warp would balance out the Grim Dark 40k.


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## LiamDawson27 (Apr 25, 2010)

Without the emperor, the Imperium would split into small kingdoms, each ruled by individual SM chapters.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Honestly I highly doubt the Great Game would be put on hold after the Emps Death. Total Chaos control on the Galaxy would take all four Chaos Gods to put effort into. With Stories like Soul Drinkers where Tzeentch DP ruins Galaxy control plans of Nurgle DP applies here. Lets face it, the Great Game would expand, however the other Races would still be able to hold their turf. Add in the Ctan who have the Tech to deall off the Warp would balance out the Grim Dark 40k.


We can be reasonably certain that the C'tan are capable of sealing off the warp as it is. I think it's a leap in logic, though, to assume the C'tan could seal off the warp if the two realms are already as one. What's more, the chaos gods have proven willing to put the great game on hold if a significant enough threat arises. I suspect that if the C'tan ever really became a liability, the chaos gods would band together to take them down. And in an universe where the warp and the materium have merged, I don't think they'd have any difficulty in doing so.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> We can be reasonably certain that the C'tan are capable of sealing off the warp as it is. I think it's a leap in logic, though, to assume the C'tan could seal off the warp if the two realms are already as one. What's more, the chaos gods have proven willing to put the great game on hold if a significant enough threat arises. I suspect that if the C'tan ever really became a liability, the chaos gods would band together to take them down. And in an universe where the warp and the materium have merged, I don't think they'd have any difficulty in doing so.


I second this.


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## IgnotusMalum (Apr 23, 2008)

What do you all think of the star child/sensi deal?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Possible but unlikely.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

The Emperor as a beacon is what lets the imperium travel the warp isn't he?

If he were to pass on, the astronomicon would dissapear.

On the other hand, He would probably become a warp entity, and all the imperium's forces souls that die in his name, for his ideals, would flock to him much like the chaos gods followers power them up. Many of the books have marines saying they can't wait to die and go to his side for the final battle. This warp-god-emperor could guide things safely around the warp I suppose.

What will happen to all the psykers that no longer have to be fed to power up his corpse? Slaughter them? Risk having a huge psyker influx which would be dangerous possession-wise, and enslaver wise?

Without him on Terra, why would the SM chapters care about it anymore? All they need are slaves to make things, and recruit from. Especially when the pathetic humans seek to have so much power over them, testing geneseed, require tithes, demanding assistance. All so they can live their miserable lives in some polluted hive. Surely by now some chapters have realized that the imperium creates it's own problems simply by existing.

I would like to see the Imperium and the Space Marines drift apart in the next edition while the Tau and Eldar come together. Heck, Necron and Tyrannid could come together too- so much life for the C'Tan to absorb and the nids don't really care about unliving metal people. Dark Eldar meeting up with Ahriman and the CSM to help them use the webway and breach terra would be exciting as well.

Orks? Orks keep doing what they do best.

So many mysteries. So many paths they could take. I kinda want to start writing my own stuff. Does black library accept random submissions :laugh:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I find the theories on how the Emperor could come back too vague and too numerous to really believe all that much. Namely, I defer to the final words of the Emperor in the Collected Visions book.



> Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me a little time to pass final orders to all of you. If you do as I ask then I shall not wholely die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less then I had feared. My psychic powers will return to my in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request.
> 
> Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the serpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the safety of mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from our stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance.
> 
> Now all of you go. You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful. Be strong. Be vigilant.


By the Emperor's own words, he will never walk again amongst mortal men. Of course, I have heard ideas that the Emperor's body will die while his soul and consciousness will become a powerful Warp God, similar to the Chaos Gods. And his words would support that idea.

But course, I highly, highly that GW would kill or bring back the Emperor period, so is kind of a moot point.


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## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

If the emperor were to die, the imperium would fall apart. But what needs to be remembered is that the imperium is just the empire of the god-emperor. When he dies it's separate divisions will still function (most certainly with internal conflict). But these divisions will still ultimately avenge their god and at least try to purge the galaxy of the taint of chaos.......(but undoubtedly they'll fail miserably).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> We can be reasonably certain that the C'tan are capable of sealing off the warp as it is. I think it's a leap in logic, though, to assume the C'tan could seal off the warp if the two realms are already as one. What's more, the chaos gods have proven willing to put the great game on hold if a significant enough threat arises. I suspect that if the C'tan ever really became a liability, the chaos gods would band together to take them down. And in an universe where the warp and the materium have merged, I don't think they'd have any difficulty in doing so.


Given the nature of the Cadian pylons, I don`t think it would be that big a leap in logic. And I am pretty sure the Deceiver would be aware of the situation, for no reason other than He`s not stupid. There are all but three primary pieces of fluff for him, which I suspect will change when the new dex comes out. (Probably sometime in 2018:ireful2

We know plenty about how they took control of the past. At the moment I am more interested in their plans for the future. :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Given the nature of the Cadian pylons, I don`t think it would be that big a leap in logic.


The Cadian pylons failed miserably. Many buckled under the fury of the Warp and stand in ruins, and considering Cadia is now fairly firmly in the Despoiler's grasp - the Chaos forces can destroy the remaining ones at will.

Also we don't actually know what their original function was, considering they were created pre-Fall of the Eldar, meaning the Eye of Terror wasn't around when the Pylons existed. Unless perhaps say the Deciever has been active since before the Fall and predicted the Fall and its consequences, but that would be a massive assumption and would rest on the idea of the Deciever being highly knowledgeable in regards to the Warp.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

What if the Emperor died and we didn't tell anyone? would that help? 

And what if Magnus is connected to the Astronomican? That would make sure it remains activated.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

Hehe I enjoyed the thousand sons book

Council of Nikkea: Quit using psyker powers you are messing with things you don't understand!

Magnus: Pshhh they don't mean me, I know all there is! Lets browse some of my brothers. Well I'll be jiggered! Horus has been corrupted! Better warn Dad!

-enters webway-

Magnus: Whoa theres some sort of gay-ass forcefeild here. 

-puts hands on hips, throws head back and laughs-

Magnus: I'll show this forcefeild whats what

-smashes forcefeild-

Magnus: what up Dad! how's it going

Emperor: You broke my forcefield

Magnus was supposed to sit where the emp does now but the gods gave him a taste of _a_ future and of course the second you try to avoid that future is when it becomes _the_ future.

Apparently the Emperor made a bargain with the Chaos gods so he could create the Primarchs, and then cheated them out of their due. I don't know what the bargain was and can I really trust the source? I think Erebus told Horus this or a Daemon told Magnus about it. Can't remember.

Perhaps the bargain was that he would have to die and join the gods of the warp. Did Horus lower his sheild during the attack on terra to make sure the emperor was dead? Is he the "False Emperor" because he merely used a bit of someone else's power? Does Cypher need to get to the throne fix the sword given to the lion (primarch of the first legion) and finish the Emperor off?

I'm sure more will be revealed as the series goes on. Of course the more money they make the more they are going to draw it out and put in crappy filler books that no one is interested in. 

"Horus heresy - Khan takes a dump"


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sangus Bane said:


> What if the Emperor died and we didn't tell anyone? would that help?


No, because the Emperor (as many people have said countless times) is the single entity holding everything together. Without him there is No Warp Travel, No guidance, No protection against the Dark Gods of Chaos, No Imperium. Its not like if the Emperor died no one would notice and you could cover it up.



Sangus Bane said:


> And what if Magnus is connected to the Astronomican? That would make sure it remains activated.


As I said in another thread:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Send an expedition into the Eye of Terror in an attempt to capture Magnus? Good luck with that. Remember to send us a postcard!


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Malgron said:


> Apparently the Emperor made a bargain with the Chaos gods so he could create the Primarchs, and then cheated them out of their due. I don't know what the bargain was and can I really trust the source? I think Erebus told Horus this or a Daemon told Magnus about it. Can't remember.


I wouldn't claim that as any kind of truth. It sounds a lot like the visions the dying Horus saw in False Gods. Like how Erebus and the CG showed Horus a glimpse of the Imperium in the current time, with the Emperor and the loyal Primarchs being venerated by the people, while himself and the other Primarchs are absent. Of course, they conveniently omit the fact that this happens _because_ Horus betrays the Emperor.

To me, it sounds more like another deceptive lie of Tzeentch than a true fact.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I wouldn't claim that as any kind of truth. It sounds a lot like the visions the dying Horus saw in False Gods. Like how Erebus and the CG showed Horus a glimpse of the Imperium in the current time, with the Emperor and the loyal Primarchs being venerated by the people, while himself and the other Primarchs are absent. Of course, they conveniently omit the fact that this happens _because_ Horus betrays the Emperor.
> 
> To me, it sounds more like another deceptive lie of Tzeentch than a true fact.


Take into account that particular claim is further supported in _A Thousand Sons_ when Magnus states matter-of-factly that the Emperor made such bargains with the Chaos Powers.

Personally I hold the position that the Emperor did bargain with the Chaos Gods in some form or another (but thats not a criticism), it would explain a lot to be honest: Why the Chaos Gods suddenly had such a vendetta against the Emperor and put the Great Game of Chaos on temporary hold (despite the Chaos Gods obviously knowing about the Emperor prior to the Unification period), how the Emperor was as powerful as he was, how he managed to create beings of such awesome power (The Primarchs), etc.


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## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

If the Emperor dies the Imperium dies. 

Which might not be such a bad thing? 

After all, the imperium = constant war, suppression of the masses, stripping of planets, and worship of a dictator, terminally polluted planets, and lots of other bad things (but good books, I hasten to add!). I base my stand on the belief that death of imperium does not equal death of humanity.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

donskar said:


> If the Emperor dies the Imperium dies.
> 
> Which might not be such a bad thing?
> 
> After all, the imperium = constant war, suppression of the masses, stripping of planets, and worship of a dictator, terminally polluted planets, and lots of other bad things (but good books, I hasten to add!). I base my stand on the belief that death of imperium does not equal death of humanity.


please do realise that the Imperium is under constant seige by xeno, heretic, and demonic forces, The Imperium is nessisary to keep humanity united. a united front is a strong front. with the death of the Emperor, no longer can you safely(relitively) travel through the warp, which means no longer can you resupply, reinforce, or respond to a new attack with the required speed to stop the bleeding and push the enemy back. the death of the Emperor equals the death of the Imperium, which leads to the destruction of humanity. plus the Eye of terror now expands unchecked by any force capable of slowing or stopping it. and there just arn't enough Astartes spread out across the galaxy to slow the encrouching Xeno's invasion points.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Helvron said:


> please do realise that the Imperium is under constant seige by xeno, heretic, and demonic forces, The Imperium is nessisary to keep humanity united. a united front is a strong front. with the death of the Emperor, no longer can you safely(relitively) travel through the warp, which means no longer can you resupply, reinforce, or respond to a new attack with the required speed to stop the bleeding and push the enemy back. the death of the Emperor equals the death of the Imperium, which leads to the destruction of humanity. plus the Eye of terror now expands unchecked by any force capable of slowing or stopping it. and there just arn't enough Astartes spread out across the galaxy to slow the encrouching Xeno's invasion points.


Agreed. Even if chaos didn't engulf real space, humanity wouldn't be able to survive without the Imperium. It might be able to survive in pockets for a while, but without the Emperor uniting them and the astronomicon to make warp travel feasible, I suspect they'd die even faster than the eldar are.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

K3k3000 said:


> We can be reasonably certain that the C'tan are capable of sealing off the warp as it is. I think it's a leap in logic, though, to assume the C'tan could seal off the warp if the two realms are already as one. What's more, the chaos gods have proven willing to put the great game on hold if a significant enough threat arises. I suspect that if the C'tan ever really became a liability, the chaos gods would band together to take them down. And in an universe where the warp and the materium have merged, I don't think they'd have any difficulty in doing so.


I think my post was misunderstood. I was getting at the Chaos Gods would be still battling themselves for power individually instead of taking the galaxy in the moment after the Emps death. heir are to many other players who been around WAY longer than the Emp or humanity. Ctan and Eldar are one. Orks been around as long. Hell technicly the Emp was made by the Old Ones if you want to get technical. So is he really belived to be that powerful keeping the big bad four at bay with his will? I see no proof after what the Chaos Gods did with the HH. If they made individual runs at the Galaxy, they still have to take on Orks massive Psychy, Ctan anti Warp Tech, and the Eldar pesky manipulations, which have done well after looking at the 13th Black Crusade.



Serpion5 said:


> Given the nature of the Cadian pylons, I don`t think it would be that big a leap in logic. And I am pretty sure the Deceiver would be aware of the situation, for no reason other than He`s not stupid. There are all but three primary pieces of fluff for him, which I suspect will change when the new dex comes out. (Probably sometime in 2018:ireful2
> 
> We know plenty about how they took control of the past. At the moment I am more interested in their plans for the future. :biggrin:


The Ctan be one of many Oppossition the Chaos powers have to deal with. Chaos can be very powerful by spilling into the Galaxy, however thats all the y been able to do, before the Emps time and after.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Cadian pylons failed miserably. Many buckled under the fury of the Warp and stand in ruins, and considering Cadia is now fairly firmly in the Despoiler's grasp - the Chaos forces can destroy the remaining ones at will.
> 
> Also we don't actually know what their original function was, considering they were created pre-Fall of the Eldar, meaning the Eye of Terror wasn't around when the Pylons existed. Unless perhaps say the Deciever has been active since before the Fall and predicted the Fall and its consequences, but that would be a massive assumption and would rest on the idea of the Deciever being highly knowledgeable in regards to the Warp.


Why not? Look at the Eldar Codex about the Laughing God always getting one up on Slannesh. Khain being near match for Slannesh at his/her best. Ynnead thats may finnish Slannesh once for all. These are facts from C:Eldar. Then theres older fluff of Malal who does whatever to mess up the other four gods day. There is the Ctan who have shown to be the Chaos Gods opposits. Orks Gork and Mork exist in a fashion. 

Yet with all these powers before the Emps time held the Chaos Gods in check before the Emps time cannot possibly cope after his death? That makes no sense at all. I understand that the Daemon Dex and some Imperial material mention Chaos Ruling after the Emps demise, other cannonable material say otherwise. Once more Death of the imperium, Humanity/Astartes and the Galaxy will carry on. Hell the Astartes alone could hold their peice of the Galaxy against Chaos. Hell if the ban on Legion Size Astertes were lifted (like BT size Chapters) I think Humanity continues to stand a strong stance. They will lose alot of ground but stand as strong.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Why not? Look at the Eldar Codex about the Laughing God always getting one up on Slannesh. Khain being near match for Slannesh at his/her best.


Cegorach survived only because his comedic and mocking nature distanced himself from Slaanesh, not because he had immense power up his sleave. And Khaine wasn't a near match for Slaanesh. Khaine got his ass kicked, but was either too powerful to be entirely destroyed (like some sources claim Gork and Mork to be), or he had his carcass contested over by another chaos god long enough for him to escape in pieces. Keep in mind that Khaine was not the most powerful eldar deity. Asuryan was. And if Slaanesh could beat Asuryan, Khaine would be not match.



> Ynnead thats may finnish Slannesh once for all.
> 
> 
> > If Ynnead even comes to be, and I do believe it's a strong possibility, the best he'll most likely do is free the eldar from Slaanesh's grasp. This may mean the eldar souls will begin to be reborn again, or it could simply be a symbolic victory. There is a chance that Slaanesh could be defeated by Ynnead, though I feel it's very minute.
> ...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Cadian pylons failed miserably. Many buckled under the fury of the Warp and stand in ruins, and considering Cadia is now fairly firmly in the Despoiler's grasp - the Chaos forces can destroy the remaining ones at will.
> 
> Also we don't actually know what their original function was, considering they were created pre-Fall of the Eldar, meaning the Eye of Terror wasn't around when the Pylons existed. Unless perhaps say the Deciever has been active since before the Fall and predicted the Fall and its consequences, but that would be a massive assumption and would rest on the idea of the Deciever being highly knowledgeable in regards to the Warp.


To my knowledge, The Deceiver awoke sometime in the 35th milennium. But that`s on par with the whole starchild theory intel, so obviously isn`t concrete. 

What I was implying by this is that we can assume the pylons were necron built. (An assumption, but all we have for now.) When and why remain a mystery, maybe the Deceiver did have a hand in it. Which would imply that the necs have the means to resist or fight back against a full scale incursion.

And why do you discredit the notion that the Deceiver would know the ways of the warp? He has existed for a very long time and witnessed first hand what it did to the Old Ones and their creations. Is it not reasonable to believe that he has learned a thing or two? Others have in far less time, and the Deceiver has the advantage of being immune to corruption.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

K3k3000 said:


> Cegorach survived only because his comedic and mocking nature distanced himself from Slaanesh, not because he had immense power up his sleave. And Khaine wasn't a near match for Slaanesh. Khaine got his ass kicked, but was either too powerful to be entirely destroyed (like some sources claim Gork and Mork to be), or he had his carcass contested over by another chaos god long enough for him to escape in pieces. Keep in mind that Khaine was not the most powerful eldar deity. Asuryan was. And if Slaanesh could beat Asuryan, Khaine would be not match.


I never said Cegorach is stronger, just that he is smarter. He survives Slannesh and pulls Eldar souls away from him/her. Khain fought Slannesh when Slannesh was high on every other Eldar Gods power, and as you said Slannesh was too weak to finish Khain off completly. That is solid fact that it was a near match. Hell during the War in Heaven Asuryan wanted nothing to do with Khains rage at Isha and Kronus. He let Khain the badass do his thing.



K3k3000 said:


> If Ynnead even comes to be, and I do believe it's a strong possibility, the best he'll most likely do is free the eldar from Slaanesh's grasp. This may mean the eldar souls will begin to be reborn again, or it could simply be a symbolic victory. There is a chance that Slaanesh could be defeated by Ynnead, though I feel it's very minute.


Its more than a possibility that Yneead could replace Slannesh. Of Warp Gods can be replace by Warp gods as the Eldar patheon was by Slannesh or Malice was kicked out then why not?



K3k3000 said:


> The exact power of a C'tan is difficult to gauge, but we do know one critical thing about them: they are anathema to warp, and the warp is their weakness. How can we say that the C'tan can even bring their full powers to bear in warp-engulfed real space? How could they hope to survive against opponents that are virtually omnipotent in their own realm?


Cause even though Warp Space overlaps its still in real space. Physics are twisted and bend but CSM still rely on their Real Space equipment in the EoT. Sill works there just fine.




K3k3000 said:


> While it is true that Gork and Mork are very powerful deities, I'm not sure if I've ever heard of them directly contesting the chaos gods, or anyone, for that matter.


Gork and Mork is probaly what keeps the orks from turning to Khorn or becoming Chaos pawns. Speculation but the orks are resistant.



K3k3000 said:


> These deities didn't hold the chaos gods in check, though. The chaos gods have been increasing in strength for ages, and the C'tan, eldar gods, and Gork and Mork have done nothing to slow their progress. The C'tan have thought about it, certainly, but thus far they've been sitting on their hands. What's more, the playing field won't be the same after the Emperor's death. The C'tan will be sitting ducks in warp-engulfed real space, and the three eldar gods are in hiding, captured, or shattered. Gork and Mork might be able to defend their own people, though it'd be impossible to say for sure.


Again you place this as speculation on the Emps death. I was merely pointing out that the Imperium Cannon isnt the same as the other races cannon. Nowhere does it say when the Emp dies the Galaxy is instantly engulf by warp space. Says alot about how Humans be done for but not Chaos rules forever cause of one man who was almost choked to death by a Warboss, or killed by a suped up Primarch is dead. Nowhere does the Emps power even compare to the Big four period. Hell Void Dragon had to be severly weaken to be imprison by the Emp. Yet hes single handily holding Chaos back? I dont think so.


The astartes wouldn't stand a chance. Deamons are infininite in number, and the astartes wouldn't be able to travel to other worlds to get supplies. Unlike the Eldar, they can't will their materials into existence. Once they run out of munitions they'll be torn apart by the endless waves of powerful daemons.[/QUOTE]
Yeah tell that to the Soul Drinkers who smash thru a Daemon world of Infinit Daemons and killed the DP there to break the Hold. Tell that to the CSM Marines who are always fighting for turf in the EoT.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yet with all these powers before the Emps time held the Chaos Gods in check before the Emps time cannot possibly cope after his death? That makes no sense at all.


Maybe the Emperor has existed since the era following the War in Heaven? Therefore it has always been him who has held Chaos in check.

If not that, then its obvious that the Warp has become more chaotic than it has ever been in M41 - thats why the old fail-safes (most of which are now gone - Eldar Gods for example) wouldn't work, because Chaos is much stronger and more influential (largely due to humanity) than it has ever been. 



Warlock in Training said:


> other cannonable material say otherwise.


Does it? Give us an example.



Warlock in Training said:


> Hell the Astartes alone could hold their peice of the Galaxy against Chaos. Hell if the ban on Legion Size Astertes were lifted (like BT size Chapters) I think Humanity continues to stand a strong stance. They will lose alot of ground but stand as strong.


Do you think that even if the Galaxy was merged with the Warp? Infinite, limitless and all powerful armies of Daemons against a few thousand Astartes.. No challenge at all.



Serpion5 said:


> And why do you discredit the notion that the Deceiver would know the ways of the warp? He has existed for a very long time and witnessed first hand what it did to the Old Ones and their creations. Is it not reasonable to believe that he has learned a thing or two? Others have in far less time, and the Deceiver has the advantage of being immune to corruption.


I didn't discredit it, I merely said it would be an assumption. But think about it, the Deceiver is completely anathema to the Warp, he cannot grasp or understand it. He may see its effects on Real Space, but he doesn't know why or how.



Warlock in Training said:


> Nowhere does it say when the Emp dies the Galaxy is instantly engulf by warp space.


_Codex: Chaos Daemons_, page 24.
_Codex: Imperialis_, page 11.

They are very specific, when the Emperor dies, the Warp engulfs Real Space.



Warlock in Training said:


> Yet hes single handily holding Chaos back? I dont think so.


It is sometimes difficult to fathom I agree. But we have to take into account that the Emperor is _the_ most powerful psyker ever, with an unconquerable force of will to manifest that power. The Warp acts in mysterious ways, I can personally come to terms with the Emperor being the single entity that is preventing a total Chaos victory.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I never said Cegorach is stronger, just that he is smarter. He survives Slannesh and pulls Eldar souls away from him/her.


Even intelligence is hard to quantify here. We don't know if Cegorach is smarter than Slaanesh. We just know that his nature is too different from Slaanesh for Slaanesh to consume him. Ceogorach might just be doing to god equivalent of guerilla warfare.



> Khain fought Slannesh when Slannesh was high on every other Eldar Gods power, and as you said Slannesh was too weak to finish Khain off completly. That is solid fact that it was a near match.


It's not about Slaanesh being too weak to kill Khaine. It's about Khaine being too strong to fully die. I know it sounds like I'm arguing semantics, but bear with me. If Khaine is too strong to die, then it doesn't matter how powerful Slaanesh was, Khaine would still survive. I think it's sort of the same as zombies from the Discworld novels. Zombies are humans who are so stubborn and willful that, following death, they just get right back up again. Does that mean their killers are too weak to finish them? Not really. It just means they're too strong to truly die.

Also, keep in mind that it's just one perspective of the story. The other perspective was that Khaine only survived because Khorne called dibs on him.



> Hell during the War in Heaven Asuryan wanted nothing to do with Khains rage at Isha and Kronus. He let Khain the badass do his thing.


Khaine is second to Asuryan, who is top dog of the eldar. Sometimes gods are just aloof and want to stay out of things. During the time of troubles in the Forgotten Realms universe, Ao could have destroyed every problem-causing avatar on the planet, but left them to their own devices. It's just the nature of gods.



> Its more than a possibility that Yneead could replace Slannesh. Of Warp Gods can be replace by Warp gods as the Eldar patheon was by Slannesh or Malice was kicked out then why not?


It's definitely not a certainty. It's either a minute or moderate possibility depending on how you look at it. If Yneead is the gestalt manifestation of a couple billion eldar souls, than he doesn't stand a chance against Slaanesh. If he's the manifestation of the death of the galaxy's greatest and most powerful empire, much in the same way that Khaine was the manifestation of the eldar's racial passion exhibited through warfare, than he'd have a better chance.



> Cause even though Warp Space overlaps its still in real space. Physics are twisted and bend but CSM still rely on their Real Space equipment in the EoT. Sill works there just fine.


You may be right here. I still don't think the C'tan would stand a snowball's chance in hell, though.



> Gork and Mork is probaly what keeps the orks from turning to Khorn or becoming Chaos pawns. Speculation but the orks are resistant.


I think it's the other way around, actually. Gork and Mork exist because orks don't or can't turn to Khorne. They're psychically attuned to feed into Gork and Mork.



> Yeah tell that to the Soul Drinkers who smash thru a Daemon world of Infinit Daemons and killed the DP there to break the Hold. Tell that to the CSM Marines who are always fighting for turf in the EoT.


They Astartes might have some initial success, granted, but they wouldn't last long. The process of creating more Astartes is a long and difficult one that many initiates don't survive. The defenseless stock they would recruit from would be constantly ravaged by daemons and they'd have no real way to protect them. They wouldn't be able to call for reinforcements, and would likely be segmented to begin with, as I'm fairly certain the astartes don't all just hang around their recruiting worlds. And what happens when they run out of ammo or their power armor or weapons break? They might have the equipment to make more, but eternity's a long enough time to run out of raw materials. What are the chances, you think, of a naked, unarmed Astartes fightng one bloodthirster? How about thirty? A hundred?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Ugg this Debate is endless. Plus my fingers are hurting from all the seperating quotes.:alcoholic:k3k3000 and CotE have some good points. At the end of the day I cant see the warp engulfing the entire Galaxy with the Emps death. I firmly belive the Ctan and Eldar would want to keep the loser (I said it :laugh:, burn the cult) alive if that were the case. However it seems humanity is more of a nusance in the grander scheme to the Races who know more than the Emp and Imperium does about the Warp.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Indeed. This debate could go on endlessly. Personally, I don't believe that the Emperor's death would cause the Warp to spill out into real space and consume it. The single biggest that supports my belief in that is from the novel Legion by Dan Abnett. It showed the other possible ending of the HH, with the Emperor dead and Horus and Chaos victorious. But a spark of what Horus was before he fell would remain inside him, further driving his rage and self-loathing, ultimately leading humanity to tear itself apart over the course of several generations before finally destroying themselves and taking the Chaos Gods, who had invested a great deal in humanity, with them, or so the Cabal claimed. Now, while I doubt that the Chaos Gods would have died, the fact that these various aliens, including an Eldar, wanted Horus to win, it's pretty safe to say that it's quite unlikely that Chaos would overwhelm the entire galaxy, because I highly, highly doubt any of the Cabal would have wanted Chaos to rule the galaxy.

Now I know there's going to be people that will argue with this, saying things like, 'Oh it's a Black Library novel, it isn't as canon as a codex' or 'the Chaos Daemons Codex specifically states that if the Emperor dies the Warp floods the galaxy'. So let point out a few things, first, the fluff of 40k is canon, whether it comes from the guys at GW, BL or any other company they've partnered with, such as Relic and the Dawn of War series. Only when it's been official recounted or removed can it be considered non-canon. As to what it says in Codex: Chaos Daemons, it sounds more like an artistic embellishment than a hundred percent fact. Take the current Tau Codex. When it talks about the end of the Damocles Crusade, they talk more about how the Crusade became a stalemate and the skill of the Water Caste in brokering ceasefire, adding the approaching Hive Fleet Behemoth more as a sidenote. While I'm sure the Imperial Codex books put more importance on how the Tau are a smaller threat to the Imperium and how they were more concerned with the threat of the Hive Fleet. Codex fluff is always leans more to the point of view of said race rather than being an entirely unbiased account. I'm not saying that what the Codex CD said is a lie or wrong, just that it's a bit of an embellishment. As I and other have said, the forces of Chaos would overwhelm the galaxy and there would be many places where the Wrap and real space merged together, but I don't really believe the Chaos Gods would care if the Warp completely consumed the galaxy. Their top priority is the Great Game. They care very little for us mortals, because simply whether we like it or not, our emotions feed them. They gain their power regardless of how much of the galaxy they directly control.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> They Astartes might have some initial success, granted, but they wouldn't last long. The process of creating more Astartes is a long and difficult one that many initiates don't survive. The defenseless stock they would recruit from would be constantly ravaged by daemons and they'd have no real way to protect them. They wouldn't be able to call for reinforcements, and would likely be segmented to begin with, as I'm fairly certain the astartes don't all just hang around their recruiting worlds. And what happens when they run out of ammo or their power armor or weapons break? They might have the equipment to make more, but eternity's a long enough time to run out of raw materials. What are the chances, you think, of a naked, unarmed Astartes fightng one bloodthirster? How about thirty? A hundred?


As a Russian soldier once said "so you have taken my gun from me and now you think you have completely disarmed me? No my friend, you have unleashed two new weapons instead..." (pulls out his fists).

Well if the Emperor dies, they have a perfect replacement: The Energizer Bunny, because he keeps going and going and going and going... (ok ,I need to shut up now :grin


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Indeed. This debate could go on endlessly. Personally, I don't believe that the Emperor's death would cause the Warp to spill out into real space and consume it. The single biggest that supports my belief in that is from the novel Legion by Dan Abnett. It showed the other possible ending of the HH, with the Emperor dead and Horus and Chaos victorious. But a spark of what Horus was before he fell would remain inside him, further driving his rage and self-loathing, ultimately leading humanity to tear itself apart over the course of several generations before finally destroying themselves and taking the Chaos Gods, who had invested a great deal in humanity, with them, or so the Cabal claimed. Now, while I doubt that the Chaos Gods would have died, the fact that these various aliens, including an Eldar, wanted Horus to win, it's pretty safe to say that it's quite unlikely that Chaos would overwhelm the entire galaxy, because I highly, highly doubt any of the Cabal would have wanted Chaos to rule the galaxy.


Then you are completely entitled to that view. 

Though if I could point out two problems with taking the Cabal prophecy as evidence:

1) It was a prophecy, it wasn't infallible. 
2) It was over 10,000 years ago, Chaos is stronger and more heavily invested in Humanity in M41.

And its stated as fact in two codicies, so im more willing to believe the codicies rather than a prophecy of some mysterious collaboration of Xenos races.



Akatsuki13 said:


> Codex fluff is always leans more to the point of view of said race rather than being an entirely unbiased account. I'm not saying that what the Codex CD said is a lie or wrong, just that it's a bit of an embellishment.


Whilst that is true in a sense, and each Codex does emphasize its own race - but they are all equally true. Given your example, the threat of the looming Hive Fleet and the unexpected strength of the Fire Caste and skill of the Water Caste all played their part in ending the Damocles Crusdae, both are mentioned in Imperial and Tau sources but one is often emphasized over the other.


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