# Noise Marines vs. CSMs



## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

I was talking to a friend the other day about Chaos tactics when making a list and his point was that he would take Noise Marines all day long over other troop choices. This being that the +1 Int was well worth the extra 5 pts per model (with nothing equipped except a pw or pf on the sergeant). This stirred my curiosity b/c I never used them w/out their special weapons, so I started crunching some numbers and comparing them w/other chaos troops.
I figured out I could do the same thing w/csm (MoS), without being fearless, having an icon, and being able to take special weapons while noise marines don't have what I listed. And they are both I5.

So I ask you, why would you use noise marines?


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

I disagree that +1 initiative is worth extra points on its own. Perhaps for 2-3 points per model more it would be tempting. I find noise marines are best for their special weapons. Yes, even the sonic blaster in the right meta-game.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i usually take a squad of 6-10 with sonic blasters & a DS + stuff champion and drive around killing marines. Slaanesh approves of "burning" marines.

also a 5man squad with a blast master if i want a slaanesh Obj camper/long range firepower.

but NMs are not worth the points to just have the I5 & fearless over CSMs, and the cost for sonic weaponry is way over reasonable cost. *no ranting....:ireful2:*

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if you just want to strike 1st, usually, then IoS is more than enough, also allows for use of special weapons, like meltas, to make for easy transport popping - which is something generic NMs have trouble with.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I regularly use 7 Noise Marines, 6 with Sonic Blasters, and 1 Champ with a Doom Siren and a PW, in a Rhino. I camped them on an objective, out of the Rhino, to abuse the Heavy fire mode, and proceeded to decimate ~12 DE Warriors from a 20 man squad.

As with all Chaos Cult Troops, you just need to use them right. If your using Noise Marines, and not using the Sonic Blasters/Blastmaster/Doom Siren then your doing it wrong. Other wise, just use regular CSM's


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Dawnstar said:


> I regularly use 7 Noise Marines, 6 with Sonic Blasters, and 1 Champ with a Doom Siren and a PW, in a Rhino. I camped them on an objective, out of the Rhino, to abuse the Heavy fire mode, and proceeded to decimate ~12 DE Warriors from a 20 man squad.
> 
> As with all Chaos Cult Troops, you just need to use them right. If your using Noise Marines, and not using the Sonic Blasters/Blastmaster/Doom Siren then your doing it wrong. Other wise, just use regular CSM's


Ding Ding! We have winner. I play NMs in EC theme army and the above is the best way to run them. 

I actually run 8 with 5 SBs and DS/PW Champ in a Rhino. Just a little more in pts than Sqaud of 8 Zekers with PF Champ in a Rhino. I think they perfom better at MEQ killing than the Zerkers thanks to the the mass amount of Assualt 2 Bolters with ST5 AP3 Flamer, then Int 5 3 attacks on the charge.Zerkers are better at killing Higher toughness opponets tho or thinning out a Swarm of whatever thanks to the 4 attacks, WS5, and FC. 

Its depends on how you use them.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

it really depends on the point cost you have in the game. i always run noisemarines in games that are 2k and up. anything lower and you lose the flexible army. the reason is you will not have a decent amount of anti armor. i think plague marines are the best choice for low point games.
i run 5 man squads with 1 blastmaster and a champion with a doom siren. place them in a rhino and fire the blastmaster off. when shit gets to close jump out move up 6 have your daemon prince lash a squad and then fire the ap3 template. perfect killing device. then assualt with the I5. ive wrecked people with noisemarines. id take them over any cult troop at high points. khorne players be afraid of noisemarines. my advice


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Ding Ding! We have winner. I play NMs in EC theme army and the above is the best way to run them.
> 
> I actually run 8 with 5 SBs and DS/PW Champ in a Rhino. Just a little more in pts than Squad of 8 Zekers with PF Champ in a Rhino. I think they perform better at MEQ killing than the Zerkers thanks to the the mass amount of Assault 2 Bolters with ST5 AP3 Flamer, then Int 5 3 attacks on the charge.Zerkers are better at killing Higher toughness opponents tho or thinning out a Swarm of whatever thanks to the 4 attacks, WS5, and FC.
> 
> Its depends on how you use them.


Once again I would like to point out how unless the sonic weapons are, and how the doom siren is the only thing that makes NM worth it against any MeQ target.

8 NM vs 10 Berzerkers. (Do to cost difference.)

Lets give the NM one round of shooting and then a shoot charge and the berzerkers a shoot charge.

NM 6.5 average kills over the most idea of situations were they have a target they can shoot once at full without any casualties and then get to shoot and charge the enemy averages to 6.5 kills against MeQ (Note their are a lot of ifs in this scenario and having the whole unit exposed outside of a rhino will typically lose 2-4 marines before that point.

Berzerkers firing bolt pistols then charging. averages 6.9 MeQ kills. Note as assaults are on going the berzerkers actually have the edge in this calculation since their hitting power in melee will kill the enemy locked in CC. Also the berzerkers only require one turn to do what the NM needed two ideal turns to do. Also more bodies means more staying power something the ultra expensive NM do not have.

Also of interest is the fact that despite appearances a skull champ is actually better at fighting MeQ armies then a NM champ. cost 36 vs 50 pts. Yet despite the NM champ averaging 4 marine kills a doom siren shot their kill rate in CC is a abysmal 1 kills while a charging berzerker skull champ may not kill as many marines on the charge 2-3, he also lends something the NM's don't have the ability to hurt MC's and dreadnoughts easily, not to mention his average kill rate after the first round remains a solid 2 kills a turn while the NM champ will average 1-0 kills after the first turn.

So in short NM are ultimately never worth the cost compared to other choices, and are best taken for the soul purpose of the incredibly effective doom siren. Keep in mind if you take a entire army of NM they become more useful as you in effect become a fire base army, but 1-2 units will rarely beat out the berzerkers or plague marines that you could have taken.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Noise Marines without Sonic Blasters seem a bit pointless, you might as well go with CSM with IoS. Given the advantage Sonic Blasters give in terms of being able to move and fire, you should take them if you take Noise Marines.

The problem Noise Marines have is that they're specialised anti-infantry, which puts them at a severe disadvantage in 5th edition, when compared to anything that can take Meltaguns (CSM & Plague Marines).


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Luke, your "mathhammer" is very flawed. Why does the NM champ cost 50 when the skull champ costs only 36? If you're not adding the doom siren / power weapon then the noise marine champ costs 1 point less than the berserker champion - you didn't mention that.

Also, the skull champ doesn't hurt MC's / dreadnoughts without a powerfist - the NM champ has access to this same fist for the same price - sure he has 1 fewer attack but you simply stated that the skull champ has it & the NM champ does not.

A more fair look at them:

(9) Berserkers + Skull champ w/ PF (10 models total - 250 points)
(8) Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters + DS / PF champ (9 models total 255 points)
NO TRANSPORTS

Begin 24+" apart.

(10) Berserkers move first:
18+" apart now. no shots fired
(9) Noise marines stand still:
18+" apart. 8*3+1 bolter shots = 2.77 kills round down to 2
(8) Berserkers move:
12+" apart now. no shots fired:
(9) Noise marines stand still:
12+" apart. 8*3+1 bolter shots = 2.77 kills round down to 2
(6) Berskers move:
6+" apart now. 6 pistol shots fired: 0.66 kills round up to 1
no assaults as 6+" apart.
(8) Noise marines move forward
<6" apart. 7*2+doom siren (assume hit 3) = 0.77 + 2 kills round up to 3 (gotta round up sometimes...)

Noise marines assault: 
I5: 7*3 attacks = 1.75 kills round up to 2
I4: n/a skull champ only one surviving (2+2+3+2 = 9)
I1: 3*WS5 attacks: 1.77 kills round up to 2
I1: 3*WS4 attacks: 1.25 kils round down to 1

Noise marines remain with 6 models left.

The only things that would change in this scenario is (a) the inclusion of terrain to slow the moving berserkers, (b) if the noise marines had to back up after the second turn, this would result in 1 fewer shot each meaning est 1 fewer berserker casualty. In the scheme of things that translates into maybe one more dead noise marine but just as many dead berserkers.

Of course throw vehicles into the mix & you have a whole other animal, but give berserkers a rhino & noise marines a blastmaster & I'd still personally prefer noise marines.

Having said all that, it is obvious that berserkers will outfight noisemarines in CC, they have more attacks, a higher weapon skill and if they get the charge strike simultaneously & with a higher strength - all in all leading to dead noise marines. But NM's aren't supposed to be combat machines, they are a confused unit that doesn't know exactly what it is supposed to do in this edition. I5 doesn't help with shooting, but all of their upgrades are meant for shooting. Warp scream (made all units in assault with them I1) was a much more effective power than I5, it made them a shooty unit with an edge & didn’t confuse people with regards to the PF / PW question (PF’s are required not requested…)

Noise marines have been further kicked in the teeth by the GK book & the inclusion of force halberds. Making FW wielding GK I6 with hammerhand to make then S5 as well really hurt noise marines, especially when GK also have storm bolters (thats what a sonic blaster is if you move...).

For competitiveness PM are a more solid choice. More survivable and access to the special weapons from the codex makes them a fantastic choice. 

To answer the question posed by the OP: Noise marines are great for the following: killing hordes (much better than berskerers as they go down just as fast in CC to bulk ork / hormagaunt attacks), killing marines (Blastmasters are krak blasts…) & looking good whilst wearing pink.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

clever handle said:


> Luke, your "mathhammer" is very flawed. Why does the NM champ cost 50 when the skull champ costs only 36? If you're not adding the doom siren / power weapon then the noise marine champ costs 1 point less than the berserker champion - you didn't mention that.


Your right most have not been paying attention. Its actually skull champ 61 NM champ 65. Really got to stop posting late at night, but all things said and done their is a profoundly good reason people take berzerkers over NM's and that's the fact they require less situational setting up, and also the fact that CC is profoundly more powerful then shooting this edition.

Seriously every time I see one of these threads I can't help but think the people involved are either lying to themselves or think they are smarter then the 1000 or so tournament power gamers that design competitive lists....I can tell you blankly right now you aren't (With some rare exceptions).

Also note that 75% of your critique can be ignored because no one avoids taking rhino's and taking a rhino cripples the NM, but greatly increases the strength of the berzerkers. I may have made some math errors but that fact that you think comparing two units against each other in a ideal situation for one says nothing about their effectiveness of said units. At the end of the day their is a reason most people avoid NM, and no amount of fudging the numbers will hid their huge amount of weaknesses and high cost.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

which of course if you read the last 1/2 of my post is exactly what I was saying...

of course a blasmaster can pop a rhino from 48" away thus leaving the zerkers running across the field. Barring that, if the noise marines get the charge the doom siren & init bonus will decimate the zerkers, the zerkers get the charge they will decimate the NM. It is just as easy to get a charge with either but the strength of the zerkers ultimately is their staying power in combat after the charge happens. The extra attack and extra WS has them beat out the noisemarines against all other opponents (bar things like genestealers / hive tyrants).

But, to the question what would you use noiesmarines for? killing hordes at range. What does it better in the chaos codex?


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Can I point that you could bring both Bezerkers AND Noise Marines, then use them in unison to counter the others weaknesses?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

clever handle said:


> of course a blasmaster can pop a rhino from 48" away thus leaving the zerkers running across the field. Barring that, if the noise marines get the charge the doom siren & init bonus will decimate the zerkers, the zerkers get the charge they will decimate the NM. It is just as easy to get a charge with either but the strength of the zerkers ultimately is their staying power in combat after the charge happens. The extra attack and extra WS has them beat out the noisemarines against all other opponents (bar things like genestealers / hive tyrants).


Blastmasters aren't exactly good anti-tank weapons. The chances of busting open a Rhino aren't that great.

I'm not sure why it is that when comparing the two units they're being put up against one another. Such an example only really makes any sense in Chaos vs. Chaos battles and isn't really overly helpful when determining if a unit is any good or not.



> But, to the question what would you use noiesmarines for? killing hordes at range. What does it better in the chaos codex?


A better question is "Why do I need to kill hordes from range?". Chaos Marines have lots of options for beating the hell out of cheap infantry either from range or up close. Basic Chaos infantry are pretty decent in close combat against said opponents, too. Then there are Obliterators with their plasma cannons, Defiliers with battle cannons, Predators, heavy weapons and so on. Your usual (non)competitive Chaos army doesn't contain much in the way of tools to deal with such things, but that's because they're poorly written.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> A better question is "Why do I need to kill hordes from range?". Chaos Marines have lots of options for beating the hell out of cheap infantry either from range or up close. Basic Chaos infantry are pretty decent in close combat against said opponents, too. Then there are Obliterators with their plasma cannons, Defiliers with battle cannons, Predators, heavy weapons and so on. Your usual (non)competitive Chaos army doesn't contain much in the way of tools to deal with such things, but that's because they're poorly written.


Great point Katie. When it comes to hordes, it's all about numbers. 20 or 30 Gaunts taking a charge from Berserkers will not last long, though Hormagaunts would be expected to do some damage. Against Plague Marines, even if the Gaunts were charging, the PMs would probably still come out on top (making allowances for bad dice rolls). With Orks it would come down to who got the charge and what type of Ork army you're fighting. Against a decent Green Tide list, expect to get charged by multiple units.

The advantage Noise Marines have here is obvious, they can scythe down horde numbers before closing in for the kill. Sadly it's not that often that CSM players get to face horde armies.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Katie, bear in mind that in no way am I saying that noise marines are awesome. They have mixed up rules and are drastically overpriced for what you get but that being said:



Katie Drake said:


> Blastmasters aren't exactly good anti-tank weapons. The chances of busting open a Rhino aren't that great.


Blastmasters are just as good at antitanking as missile launchers if your scatter dice loves you... it is afterall a krak blast with a 50% chance to pen a rhino. While pinning isn't anything special, the fact that it is a S8 blast means you can tag most characters / paladins with an ID hit, ignore BA FNP, etc.




Katie Drake said:


> I'm not sure why it is that when comparing the two units they're being put up against one another. Such an example only really makes any sense in Chaos vs. Chaos battles and isn't really overly helpful when determining if a unit is any good or not.


It happens because a marine statline is a marine statline 90% of the time... results would be the same if we were talking tactical marines / grey hunters / strike squads in lieu of berserkers...



Katie Drake said:


> A better question is "Why do I need to kill hordes from range?". Chaos Marines have lots of options for beating the hell out of cheap infantry either from range or up close. Basic Chaos infantry are pretty decent in close combat against said opponents, too. Then there are Obliterators with their plasma cannons, Defiliers with battle cannons, Predators, heavy weapons and so on. Your usual (non)competitive Chaos army doesn't contain much in the way of tools to deal with such things, but that's because they're poorly written.


Why would you want to handle hordes at range? Well I'd sure love to thin a horde of boys down before they get into combat & spend 2 turns massacring a 10-man chaos squad with a hidden fist I can't touch, and I'd sure as hell like to NOT have my big guns get stuck in with a horde of termagants & not be able to fire at the big bugs coming up behind them... Sure we can hold our own in CC against a horde, but isn't it better to be in that combat for one or two rounds & then move on rather than bogged down for several game turns?

SB Noise marines are cheaper than havocs with heavy bolters (cheapest option), are fearless troops & can pack more firepower
I'm not a big fan of advocating vehicles over infantry - a single shot can prevent a chaos vehicle from firing for a whole turn whereas it'll just silence one gun in a squad. Obviously defilers are an exception to this (and I love defilers!). They're also very good at taking out hordes with the BC & CC attacks.
I also don't find plasmacannons to be that reliable when trying to hammer down hordes. Anyone recognizing the threat will spread out a bit to ensure your templates only ever hit a minimum amount of guys. Plasma cannons are great for densly packed squads (piled in against a vehicle / low consolidate roll / deepstriking terminators...)


They have uses, they just need to have their roles clarified in the next chaos book. Currently plague marines rock durability & special weapons, berserkers are obvious choices for dedicated assault troops, mech is king & horde armies are weak, as such noise marines are outshone - they're not bad choices like possessed / spawn, but they're not as competitive as many other choices.


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## XT-1984 (Aug 23, 2011)

Personally I think NM are amazing compared to regular CSM.

Mainly because you don't need a full 10 man squad to take a heavy weapon. 

And an STR 8 AP 3 48" range Plasma Cannon that causes Pinning and doesn't Over Heat whats not to love?

Also Fearlessness is important these days, many games are won or lost on a single moral check on that unit holding the objective.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Basic CSM every time. Noise Marines pay far too much for I5 and Fearless, and end up being overcosted GK, who are even worse in combat.

I agree with Katie - you can't really compare the two to each other. Look at each unit, and see how well it kills infantry, heavy infantry, units in cover, light and heavy armour, or how well it holds objectives, or how long it will tarpit something etc. The one that is the better at the majority of these roles is the better unit.

I've being banging on about oppurtunity cost for ages, but I really think it's emphasized here. CSM don't really need that much anti-horde help, considering most all infantry in the book have 2 CCWs. However, if you take NM you're missing out on the opportunity to take cheap meltaguns and the other heavy weapons. Chaos really need melta in their Troops and Elites, because without it the Obliterators (Although a fine unit) become overloaded - they can only kill three vehicles a turn, and that's not particularly likely due to them also having anti-TEq duties to tend to. The more Chosen/Terminators/CSM you have with meltaguns, the less pivotal the Obliterators become (Good because lynchpins are targettable - threats across the entire force are much harder to deal with).

Midnight


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I disagree that NMs are useless and vastly overshadowed by CSM or Zerkers. I've use them all the time for MEQ killing thanks to the Combination of Lash and DS/PW Champ. Add in 5 Sonic Blasters to a 8 man Squad for added punch if you want but Ultimately the DS/PW Champ is enough in this roll. 

Roll up in Rhino for safety or simply get out and move into position. Lash Units into Cone of Doom, Hit a whole 10 man Marine Squad with a Str 5 AP 3 Killer. Whats left you can pop shot another or two with 5 Sonic Blasters and the 2 Bolt Pistols. Charge whats left at Int 5 with 21 attacks, then 4 PW attacks. Thats a guaranteed dead squad on average. The sweet thing is I have the Option to just wipe out Combat Saud's with the DS alone at times. Never have to exit the Rhino unlike Zerk's. Also If I'm counter Charged by another unit I can still dish out Damage first unlike Zerk's who seem to be counter charged all the time if they dont kill those pesky 3+ saves that are made all the time. 

Truth is CSMs are awesome for the Re roll LD and Meltas. NMs are better at killing ME than Zerkers or CSMs in Range then CC. Since Razorspam is the only real SM Tank heavy list and since most people play SM I find NMs worth it when used right. Zerkers are awesome but I seen too many Zerkers get blown out of there Rhinos and then shot to pieces or Charged by other Armies. NMs are flexible at least with Range and CC.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I think you should use noise marines all the time. It'll increase your odds of losing which will make GW give us a new codex faster.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> I think you should use noise marines all the time. It'll increase your odds of losing which will make GW give us a new codex faster.


Nah, Necrons would have gotten a Codex by now if GW gave a shit about wins/losses.

@Warlock - I find that the most common Space Marines list is just mechanised, and for Vanillas that's Rhinos. Buying those expensive Noise Marines just so you can have the Champion is a bit pointless - I'd rather have a unit in which every squad member can kill something, rather than one expensive dude with some expensive, ablative wounds.

Midnight


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Nah, Necrons would have gotten a Codex by now if GW gave a shit about wins/losses.


Necrons lost the chance to make themselves heard several editions ago and have about a twentieth the buying power of chaos space marines. So it'd make sense that chaos space marine complaints are 20 times as loud and 20 times as quickly to be responded to.


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