# Best Value Character?



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

In 40k i'd say Eldrad or Ghazgkull are the best, not just in damage output but usefulness to the army in general.

Who in fantasy do you consider the best "all round" character that benefits the army as a whole?


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

ok well i'm going to stick with my faithful empire and say: 

karl franz he has magic resistance 3 so is rediculously difficult to get a spell off against him not bad stat lines and with ghal maraz causes D3 wounds for each unsaved wound which in an empire army is evil 

however alround best i would say a chaos lord which if given tzeench he can (i believe) be made into a sorceror at the same time i.e a wizard with WS 7 eek evil unit 

Jez you seem to be deciding on what army to take in fantasy i'd really recommend the new chaos warriors their new rules and statlines make them a really powerful army but still fun to play and with their lack of missile troops they are still a challenge for a tactition


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

I'm almost sold on Vampire Counts, just doing a bit of homework to familiarise myself with the general feel of the game. 

Until I actually play the game I won't be asking any bone rules questions. Feeling my way in :wink:


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Caradryan

He's a hero so can be in any army
he has magic res 3 so you put him in a unit and they are seriously protected from magic
he causes fear, also protects unit from fear
he come with a 4+ ward save, most lords struggle to get a ward save that good
he's good at taking on enemy characters with always strikes first, a extra damage vs unit str 2+[mounted+]
if he's killed the model takes d6 wounds no save. Bye bye skulltaker/bloodthirster/most characters in the game with a decent roll.
he's cheap for what he does
he's great at protecting mages

I take him for what he does for the army. a magic res 3 unit thats immune to fear is golden and he's a solid character on top of that


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

ahh yes good old high elves grr 

yea vamps are pretty cool plus as every caster can bring raise undead they're a pain in the arse to kill big units of skellies unless you wipe them all out


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Daemons have some seriously useful characters too

the masque is stupidly cheap. As in so cheap you wonder if they missed a digit. i'd pay 100pts more for what she does for the army.

Her abilities combo so well with other stuff in the army. -d3 ld would be ace if just for the fact the whole army causes fear or terror. If only they had magic and abilities to capitalise on that......oh wait they do, by the bucket load. wow your stubborn, what an amazingly ability....oh wait your stubborn ld 6. bye bye little dwarfies 

OR -d3 movement. so she marches next to that unit of knights and there movement goes from 14 to 12 at best 8 at worst, and they won't be able to march either so there kinda in trouble. Now if only you had some seriously fast units to make the most of that.....Sorry wait your daemons of course you have fast units coming out of every orrifice. If you want you can have core units with mv 6, or flyers and fleshhounds which are tough as nails, have magic res 3, and MV8. And if there not fast enough how about MV 10 fiends, or a greater daemon.

Her 3+ ward save makes her very annoying to deal with coupled with being an single model[-1 to hit with shooting] and move 10 so she can march/charge 20", meaning you can keep her out of the arc's of any serious threats reasonably easily. 

Again its how cheap she is that makes her fantastic, and she'd be worth the points for just the above. But she's also pretty damn tasty in cc with plenty of attacks, high ws, always strikes first and armour piercing.

God damn she's annoyingly good


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

talking of cheap effectiveness dark elf hydras!!!!! eek the bane of my cowardly empire armies life terror causing loads of attacks flame breath then the beastmaster take their turn hatred lots of goodies little points


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Hydra's definately awesome, but not characters 

Skulltaker however, he's a character.

One of the scariest models in the game for anyone to have to face and he's a hero, and he's cheap. 
put him on a jugger and he's as fast as empire cavalry, with an amazing save. He's a daemon so he has a ward save.....again lots of lords need to make difficult choices to get a ward save.

And he's got magic res.
and he can kill a dragon in one blow


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

ok full agreement skulltaker is an arse lol

but as with everything in warhammer he has his weaknessess which is why i prefer fantasy, no 1 unit is all powerfull i mean a well placed cannon ball can still potentially take off 6 wounds and a hellblaster rolling a 6 on a missfire will still send 30 strenght 5 shots his way


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Vampire counts have some very good characters, even the basic guys can rebuild your units... That's very good for staying power. Mortals of chaos are heavy hitting CC monsters and have very good magic to boot. Dark elves are fragile but hid hard, fast and more often than most people want. High elves same apart from hit fastes and doesn't reroll.... dwarfs are heavy hitting but slow. 

If you like VC and they intrigue you go for them.... they are a very good army


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Aye, although there are Special characters harder than the Daemons mentioned, however for pts comparrions the Daemons did sorta come in, have a good chuckle and then start dismembering everyones armies.

The top Specials (ie Kingdom leaders or top generals) are still all hard, Malekith, Tyrion, Archaon, Karl Franz etc but they pay through the nose for it, I think the other all rounder character for pts cost if you want to dominate in CC at least, is Grimgor. Chuck him in his 'Immortalz' unit and hes even nastier.

But aye, the new Daemons are laughing atm.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

there in again is the advantage of fantasy because every army has bonus' is one respect and weaknesses in another it makes for a very balanced game system i mean my empire crumble if they get in CC with chaos but i can blast the crap out of them with an artillery line in the meantime and the same is true for other armies 

so you really can just pick the style of army you prefer and still be in with a chance of winning games


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Vampires are pretty good all round as a character; good armour save, ward save AND regen. Makes them a right twat to kill some times. Though Jez, an important thing to note for VC, if your general dies your army is in the shit big time. The vast majority of your units start to take forced tests each turn to see if they crumble back to dust.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Interesting advice here guys. 

Looks like I have a lot of information to soak up...


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## Flerden (Aug 17, 2008)

Settra is crazy in CC and he has an armour that can not be modified to worse than 4+ from 2+.


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## Snorri O'dubhda (May 14, 2008)

Skaven war lord- under 100points not including equipment, you can make most your army leadership 10, has a high initiative, attacks and weapon skill and the points you save means you can add a lot more to the numbers in your army, truely the best value character in the game.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Archaon =).

10 Attacks ignoring Armour Saves, level 2 Wizard, using Tzeentch (Turn enemy units into Horrors/hit themselves a few times, Disappear units, re-roll anything to do in combat for Yourself, etc), 1+ Saving throws, is tough as boots (T5, cannot be wounded on worse than a 3+), leads a unit of Hard as nails Chosen knights immune to psychology, MR2, Immune to Psycho himself, and is immune to Nurgle spells etc. Oh, and a 3+ Ward Save, not to mention some Steed that is the equal of an Elector Count.

Yeah, he's kind of alright.

See, I'm all goody goody in 40K, but I saw Archaon, and I just exploded. Literally.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

I always thought Grimgor was stupendous. I forget exact stats but along the lines of a ridiculous amount of attacks, at very high strength that hit on a 2+? And then the 1+ save to make him tough...and the unit of tough Black Orks around him. I'd say he's underpriced personally, but I'm not much of a fantasy bloke at the moment, and yeah those daemons sound ridiculous.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

i was gonna say the same thing grimgor is pretty cheap and for his price he can beat most charaters in a challenge even ones twice his price and he is just everything orky


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Archaon =).


 Yeah difficult to say he is the best value mind as I seem to remember him being a stink load of points? 



beenburned said:


> I always thought Grimgor was stupendous. I forget exact stats but along the lines of a ridiculous amount of attacks, at very high strength that hit on a 2+? And then the 1+ save to make him tough...and the unit of tough Black Orks around him. I'd say he's underpriced personally, but I'm not much of a fantasy bloke at the moment, and yeah those daemons sound ridiculous.


Checked on him earlier for another thread, Grimgor has 7 strength 7 attacks and ASF. He isn't cheap for an Orc, but then he is pretty much consistant melee carnage every turn he is in combat.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

800 odd. Nearest you can get (without being a Daemon Prince), is a Tooled Up Tzeentch Lord on Dragon. Which, Point for Point, Archaon wipes the floor with.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

To me the new Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord(Vilitch the Curseling) in WoC seems like a hot candidate. He knows all spells in lore of tzeentch and have +1 to cast. If opponent fail a dispell he gets a equal ammount of new PD as the numbers the opponent used while failing, if opponent fail to cast a spell he gets that number of extra DD.

In short he more or less forces the use of that "extra" die on all spells which naturally increases misscast rate, which ofc gives him more dice yet again. In short he more or less lets you dictate the magic phase 

All this for _under_ 400 pts which seem like alot of bang for the bucks k:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

When you say Tzeentch Sorceror, am I right in thinking that you know longer get a huge bloody warrior and Level 4 mage in one?

Or is this the same?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Vaz said:


> When you say Tzeentch Sorceror, am I right in thinking that you know longer get a huge bloody warrior and Level 4 mage in one?


Tzeentchian Sorcerers are back to the 5th ed version ones as all other sorcerers, so no he aint a Chaos Lord with spells. That was a 6th ed invention thats gone again. He does have 3 attacks and (for a mage) good CC stats still tho. This is ofc reflected in the price of him :wink:


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Mine is The green knight.
Can allmost not be killed, has one sweet blade, eterayal, undead, terror, ward, and can jump out of natral terrain at will.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

good call on the green knight, i'd forgotten about him. He's really cheap for what you get for him. Amazing Character


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

jigplums said:


> good call on the green knight, i'd forgotten about him. He's really cheap for what you get for him. Amazing Character


But a piss-poor army leader. :biggrin:

He's a walking cuisinart, but not much of a General....


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

btw grimgor is even worse than people are picturing him.

i face grimgor reguraly and you need to feed him champions and chars to keep your army alive... 

he has str 7 A7 T5 or 6 LD9 1+AS immune to psych, hatred, ASF and the unit of black orcs he is with is immune to psych and has hatred 2.... and he has WS8 or something...

all that for around 300 points or so? best value char in the entire fricking game if you ask me. Mannfred von carstein is the best char in the vamp army and doesnt even come close to beat grimgor and he costs normal+items+barding(need it) = 595p. 

sure he knows all the spells of 2 lores and generates 6 pd with 2 summoning powers (one of which blows) but thats really neither here nor there... sure he can generate even more PD with the sword of unholy power but again thats neither here nor there....

i love mannfred!


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah Grimgor is the perfect solution to the lack of consistency in an O&G army, but he comes off as a bit lame to me. Seems to be a generic super character, I would definitely consider taking him for comps and the likes, but in normal games I think he is just a little bit bland and probably a fairly common sight to boot.

He isn't cheap for an Orc character mind, he isn't far off 400 points, and is second only in cost to Azhag. Compare that to a standard BOrc character, fully tooled up at early to mid 200s and you are definitely paying for his extras. As it should be of course


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

karl franz because of his 18" army general rule


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Lord Sinkoran said:


> karl franz because of his 18" army general rule


and magic res


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

For Empire armies Valten can be a godsend especially against Undead as his combat res spread to other units can really eat away at the crumbling horrors even against normal troops his attacks can make the difference in a mass mellee


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> But a piss-poor army leader. :biggrin:
> 
> He's a walking cuisinart, but not much of a General....


He is not a General, he is a force of nature


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm surprised nobody has mention Teclis yet! +D3 power/dispel dice in each magic phase, ignores his first miscast every turn, can dispel enemy an enemy spell permanently, knows all six spells from any and every magic school, and any doubles he rolls grant Irresistible Force.

He's close to 500pts (don't know if I can post the actual number), but for worth every point for what he does. He's wiped out entire armies single-handedly and is the omnipresent figure in every special character's nightmares. Except maybe that daemon Tzeentch wizard, but he's pure cheese lolz! Just my two cents anyway


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Green Knight said:


> Mine is The green knight.
> Can allmost not be killed, has one sweet blade, eterayal, undead, terror, ward, and can jump out of natral terrain at will.


you wouldn't have any ulterior motives in nominating him would you green knight? 
however, I definitely have to agree with you. Sure, he'll get wiped out by any self respecting demon prince or super character, but he's usually less than half or a third the points of them. And even then, he'll come straight back on a 4+ next turn. 2+ save, 5+ward, ethereal and comes back to life if he's killed, and pretty nasty in combat for a decent price makes him a good contender for "best value" character.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes I do, but he is ace, one of the best charactors for his points in my opinion


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

look at archaeon though. 
magic res 
18" general range
level 2 wizard
immune to most things
3+ ward save
sword that will kill you
but you can't kill him.

evil pure evil. yes lots of points but i don't think my 2250 empire army could beat him and 4 knights


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Discount Wargames said:


> look at archaeon though.
> 
> evil pure evil. yes lots of points but i don't think my 2250 empire army could beat him and 4 knights


True but Archaon and 4 knights is the equivalent of nearly half your army more or less points wise in a 2250 game. So you could beef up a character or unit to hold them in combat and destroy the rest of their army, or just ignore him and trounce all the other units. Or better still mob him with Giants and watch your opponents face as Archaon gets stuck down their trousers


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

lol that would be funny as hell.

but they guy would prob bash the crap out of the slow giant before he got the chance i mean his sword can give him 10 attacks! 

but yea he's expensive as hell, but comare him to his points equivelant in an empire army - karl franz and who would you prefer?


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

I agree he would be a right nuisance to face, but in smaller games at least your opponent has nobbled the rest of their army to pay for him, so if you can see past the fact that Archaon is on the table you can easily beat them as they can't possibly have a balanced army.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

oh no fully agree but in terms of best value charactor he's right up their in my opinion, depending on how many points we're going up to for 'best value' lol


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

squeek said:


> I agree he would be a right nuisance to face, but in smaller games at least your opponent has nobbled the rest of their army to pay for him, so if you can see past the fact that Archaon is on the table you can easily beat them as they can't possibly have a balanced army.


Apart from the fact that this 'beefed up' unit lead by a character will be dead meat. Just that small unit has the frontage, he will get the charge, and because of that, he strikes first. I'm guessing Spearmen with Griffin banner?

So that's 10 attacks, with possible re-rolls if he has Orange fire, ignoring armour saves. You will probably challenge. This tooled up character is going to be a hero, probably, to save your general. So either the Knight champion will accept. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's, with 3 attacks. Math hammer says you take 1 wound, then another attack from the horse. Fair do's, you may kill the knight champion.

But then Archaon hits home. 10 attacks, maybe 7 hits, wounds on 2's, = 5-6 deaths. 3 attacks from Dorghar, means 2-3 more wounds. 3 Chosen Knights, = 
6 attacks, hitting on 3's, killing on twos, with the horses hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's.

Call that 12-15 wounds? Even on a fully ranked up unit with the griffin standard, that's going to cause trouble.

Apart from the face Archaon can only be used in 2500+ (or is it 3000+?), that 2250 army is going struggle.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Didn't know about his points limit, I was going on what DW said, plus I don't play empire so Griffin Banner means diddly to me. Anyway, my point was that with a super character like that on the field there are ways and means of beating your opponent. His character is worth very little if he spends 3 turns out of combat for instance.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

yea my point on archaoen the army killer wqas just a flippant comment i ment it without being serious i merely ment he does alot of damage and is probably the best value charactor regardless of where you'd ever be able to play him or what he'd take with him 

him alone is best value charactor imo


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Personally I think Lysander is pretty cheap and worth his value.

I'd say ghazghkull but the fact orks aren't the best troops he should be cheap lol


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

If either of them could be used in FANTASY they would be damn good value


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah 250 pts, only for Strength 10 attacks. Jesus.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

I still think most folks fielding Archaon would think twice on charging him against Grimgor in a black orc unit, and pts wise Grimgor is a lot cheaper than Archaon but can dish out almost as much damage.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nope. It's not just lucky dice rolls, but Orange Fire, with a re-roll hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's, and a War Banner with Exalted Champion and 11 Chosen Knights against an Equal point Black Orc army, with BSB, Grimgor, and 2 Other Black Orc Bosses = floored Grimgor.

13 Strength 5 attacks is not something many can shrug off.


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Well lucks part of the game, and it is not beyond belief Grimgor can floor Archaon before he even hits, its unlikely, but I'd still think alot of chaos players would think twice. 

What I was mainly trying to say however is Grimgor can beat him potentially and is worth a lot less. If you lined them up and charged the same enemy unit, both would probably break it on a charge, just Grimgor cost you less to do that. Grimgor doesn't need to match Archaons unit in pts to be effective, he can be just as effective in breaking enemy units for a lot less overall, and has no pts limitation to be fielded.

Thus surely he is the better all rounder and thus Best value Character.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Vaz out of idle speculation who or what do you think is the best counter to Archaon? Would be interested to hear your thoughts as I am lucky enough never to have seen him fielded.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

In larger games, he will almost certainly be with a unit. Together, they will cost around 1500 points.

He's rather special in that you can shove him in a unit, and together will chew through speed bumps (A Chaos Lord in a Chosen Knight unit, or Grimgor in a Black Orc unit which still the same points sink, can get stumped by a 200 point unit of Spearmen, for example).

This means getting a charge (unless you're High Elves), so Rune of Slowness for dwarves becomes damn helpful, and charging with Unbreakable/Great Weapon units. Slayers are probably the best at this, follow up by a charge with Great Weapon units (Miners (give the leader the steam drill, wounds archaon if you can target him on a 3+), Great Weapon Longbeards, and Hammerers).

Charge him with an equal points value - 300 points of Slayers will do some damage, but not enough to stop Archaon. Therefore, having a unit hit his flank (Gyrocopter round the back, 2" away as well), and try and break them. There's not much even a fully tooled up Chosen unit, lead by Archaon and War Banner can do against 3 Standards, 9 rank bonus (3X3 ranks), outnumbered, flank charge and several wounds. They would have to cause at least 15 wounds, not to mention to cover any wounds lost.

That means out of a possible 10 from Archaon, 3 from the Champion, and 6 from the others on the front row, and the two knights (4) with access to the side units, being the ones to figh back, you have to cause 15/23 attacks. Short of extremely lucky rolling, I doubt anyone could do this, not to mention any wounds caused. Issuing a challenge with a Giant Slayer or 5 to the front will remove Archaon as well as the Champion from the fight.

He's forced to flee straight backwards - through an enemy unit.

Still, it requires huge micro skills.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

1500 points? thats a hell of a unit. haven't really played any big games since getting back into fantasy, but my thoughts on a unit like that are either hit it from all sides at once (as you suggest) or feed cheap units to him to keep him busy while you concentrate on the rest of the army. being a brettonian player, I'd think about feeding him small units of Knights Errant. you can get a unit for 100 points, but even if they're a couple of hundred points each, he can't get through enough of them to make his points back.


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## jax40kplyr (Sep 15, 2008)

Vaz have you read the new codex yet - you know Orange Fire is gone from the Lore of Tzeentch right?
The only problem I see with taking characters like this is the associated point cost - i.e. running a 1500 point unit around. Best value wise - I think he's way too expensive for what he does. If we're talking using him in larger games (probably 3000 plus for a 1500 unit) - then the flip side to that is that your opponent has alot of points as well to throw at you. Example - 3000 of High Elves or Dark Elves vs 3000 of Chaos (with Archaon running around) - both armies would outmagic the heck of it or boltthrower it back to the stone age. I could just see Dark Elves dropping the Word of Pain spell on Archaon's unit.
Anyways - I think that when your dropping almost 700 pts on a character - its becoming way too expensive considering they can be outmaneuvered, table quarters, banners, etc. which can make up the difference in points.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

really it will depend on the game size to determine the best value charactor i.e ina 1500 point game and in a huge 6000 pointer

obviously it's all relative


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Arch Lector of Cheese - Just over 200 points.
Great Weapon
Holy Relic
Van Horstmans Speculum
Armour of meteoric Iron

One of the best character killers in a challenge! Can even Square up with a bloodthirster and even archaon.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No, I haven't read the new army book. It's not released yet. So, as I've said, what I know is from the previous army book.

Still, even without Orange Fire, Archaon is a beast. Green Fire, Blue Fire, even violet fire are nasty enough (latter particularly to snotty little big bosses from Goblins, stopping you wiping out their troops).

With Bretonnians, you've got purebreed, or something, so you have an advantage with a Barded Charge, but Archaon ignores armour saves. Not much even full plated knights charging Archaon can do against hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, ignoring your armour saves. It's just giving us a banner, if you so decide (which I doubt, considering the role).

Still, charging '5' knights into me is not going to do much. In your phase, you charge. Strike first. You get all knights to attack, from Lance. 6 WS3 Str 5 attacks. Hitting on 4's, 5's, *I think* in the new army book, wounding on 3's. Taking best possible, averages says you get 3 hits, 2 wounds. -2 to armour, leaves 3+ save, which averages suggests I pass both (66% pass). 

In return, Archaon has 10 attacks, which hits 66% - 6/7 hits, 80% wound (on twos), suggests that I get 5/6 wounds. On his own, I've just got 100 points back. At no (or little) cost to me, I'm now in range of your units, on a standard battle. Bretonnians being Bretonnians are full of thin frontage knights. You don't charge, so the lance doesn't work, I think, in any case, so with the wide frontage, (6-7 wide), I can get 2 units, and with some jiggery pokery and micro, I've got Archaon in contact with only one unit, and the champion in contact with the other.

That's why it's a Charge all or be charged. Charge all, and strike first, or get charged, or lose your frontage, meaning no retaliations.

Archaons a one trick pony. But he's a very good pony.

With Archaon, I'd always take at least 2 Sorcerors. Together, I've got 3 Level 2's, and with a couple of Khorne Chariots, Knightly unit, and Chosen, I've got extra dispel dice. 

Call it power gaming, but Archaon only has the Swords and Marauders (who can't take Marks) who are unmarked. I take just enough Tzeentch units so I can cast every spell with 3 dice, Spawn have Nurgle, and only a single unit of Knights had Slaanesh. The rest Khorne.

Hefty in points (about 4500 minimum), but together, I *could* dispel with ease any spell that stopped movement/arrow attraction etc.

Still, as you say, Bolt Throwers are nasty enough, but I have enough points in that I could purchase several units of Marauder Horsemen. If you flanked the Throwers, then they are unprotected, and I can place my Marauder Horsemen last, directly opposite. Choice is either keep themselves alive, and scatter shot at the marauders, leaving the Knights untouched, or die next turn, but kill, 1/2 knights.

And for Archaon, slamming him that 700 point chosen unit, with Banner etc, they're not going to lose their banner. You're probably going to have more banners than me, if not, you've got more troops, which is either not many for high quality troops, or many little ones, which are there to shout encouragement to the ones at the front, then run.

I realise that having Archaon is not a guarantee to win, but to get a Solid victory, most of the time, killing him is 25% of their points. Those 25% of points are going to be harder than killing an equivalent. Means he's damn good quality, and worth his cost. Somewhere along the line, he needs to be killed - either they'll be nothing left of your army, or they're the only ones left, while you've got a mauled army. Best to take the bull by the horns. Sink 25% of your army into taking his 25%. That evens it up somewhat.

Incidentally, maddermax, what you were suggesting (small units charging to speedbumb) is what I said about fighting units like Grimgor and Black Orcs etc. He can be satisfied having a chew on them, but Archaon will plow straight on through.

Black Orcs, strong as they are, are far more fragile.

Effigy - Challenge me - I'll be charging. I hit first, I hit on 4's, wound on 4's. You keep your wounds, IIRC. So with 10 attacks, ignoring your armour saves - bye bye.


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## jax40kplyr (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm agreeing with Effigy on the Archlector entry - Archlector on War Altar with Speculum, Sword of Sigsmund, Shield of the Gorgon (enemy loses 1 attack), heavy armor is ridiculous. He's unbreakable, swaps stats, always goes first with a +1 str - I made the mistake of charging a Keeper of Secrets into him. Splat goes 500+ points.


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