# Why do people hate Uriel Ventris?



## vipertaja

So I saw the thread "why do people hate ultramarines" in the general 40k 
section I think. Seeing it reminded me that I've read some people don't like 
Uriel Ventris too much (even ultramarine fans). This is not some sort of bleeding 
heart post or anything, I'm pretty neutral on Ventris, but I'm curious as to why.

I recall some people think he's a little too humane for a space marine (which 
I might slightly agree on) and others think his accomplishments are too over the 
top. Personally I've only read dead sky black sun so far due to following the 
story of Honsou rather than Ventris...and to be honest, pulling off what he did 
on Medrengard is a liiitle far fetched even though he didn't really do too much in 
the end.

So, share your thoughts!
(Share them! :threaten


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## World Eater XII

I think hes pretty badass, but i couldnt imagine any space mahreen being all buddy buddy with a group of mutants.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

In fact he is a strong example of why some many people dislike the Ultramarines, that whole winning against impossible odds thing!

He turns up on Medrengard, a world which has been fortified by the Iron Warriors without being hindered by the laws of physics, this is literally the perfect fortress. And basically screws with Honsou... seriously?! 

And thats aside from the fact this is in the Eye of Terror - and he would have probably gone insane fairly quickly.


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## vipertaja

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In fact he is a strong example of why some many people dislike the Ultramarines, that whole winning against impossible odds thing!
> 
> He turns up on Medrengard, a world which has been fortified by the Iron Warriors without being hindered by the laws of physics, this is literally the perfect fortress. And basically screws with Honsou... seriously?!
> 
> And thats aside from the fact this is in the Eye of Terror - and he would have probably gone insane fairly quickly.


Yeah...the only other loyalist space marine party I've read that went to the eye of terror is in Bloodquest...and if you've read it you know how that turns out...and even that was pretty impressive I think, but not as implausible. (haven't read hammer of daemons yet)

I do think the eye of terror is a place loyalist space marines have no business in and survivors might end up like Ardaric Vaanes. (though how his gang ended up on Merdrengard specifically I don't understand)


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## Lord of the Night

I like Ventris, and Pasanius. In fact they are the only Ultramarines that I do like, the rest are codex-adhering idiots.

Ill admit surviving on Medrengard was quite a stretch but not all Space Marines would go insane from the Eye of Terror, it takes courage and skill but some can survive with their purity intact.

And actually one other party did go to the Eye of Terror, albeit unwillingly. Justicar Alaric and Brother Haulvarn were taken by Khornate warriors to Draakasi and Alaric got out of there, Haulvarn sadly did not.


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## Baltar

He's an ultrasmurf, and therefore sucks major ass.

However, the reason I don't like him is because I like Honsou (a massively awesome and superior character in every single way possible), and he fucked Honsou.

Hopefully Honsou will catch him and stab things into his face.


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## vipertaja

Lord of the Night said:


> I like Ventris, and Pasanius. In fact they are the only Ultramarines that I do like, the rest are codex-adhering idiots.
> 
> Ill admit surviving on Medrengard was quite a stretch but not all Space Marines would go insane from the Eye of Terror, it takes courage and skill but some can survive with their purity intact.
> 
> And actually one other party did go to the Eye of Terror, albeit unwillingly. Justicar Alaric and Brother Haulvarn were taken by Khornate warriors to Draakasi and Alaric got out of there, Haulvarn sadly did not.


Corage and skill is a bit of an understatement for survivng a lovecraftian hellhole. I do think a VERY strongminded and tough space marine could survive a short visit with their mind SOMEWHAT intact, but for a loyalist going to the eye of terror is pretty much a death sentence in my opinion.

The worst thing about the eye of terror is being stranded there....in that respect Ventris got very lucky with the...er..."soultrain". :biggrin:


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## vipertaja

The Real Sanguinius said:


> He's an ultrasmurf, and therefore sucks major ass.
> 
> However, the reason I don't like him is because I like Honsou (a massively awesome and superior character in every single way possible), and he fucked Honsou.
> 
> Hopefully Honsou will catch him and stab things into his face.


I too like Honsou...he's such an arrogant prick, but that's why I like him. :biggrin:


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## Baltar

He is just the right blend of vindictive and sadistic.


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## Lord of the Night

Yeah Honsou is the king of the Iron Warriors. He never gives up, and refuses to believe anything is beyond him. Plus he isn't afraid to show disrespect, like when he spits on Toramino and insults Berossus.

Honsou and Ventris will have a reckoning in _The Chapter's Due_ but I dont think it'll be the end for them. Honsou and Ventris are too great to die.


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## vipertaja

Lord of the Night said:


> Yeah Honsou is the king of the Iron Warriors. He never gives up, and refuses to believe anything is beyond him. Plus he isn't afraid to show disrespect, like when he spits on Toramino and insults Berossus.
> 
> Honsou and Ventris will have a reckoning in _The Chapter's Due_ but I dont think it'll be the end for them. Honsou and Ventris are too great to die.


It's funny that people tend to call him the best. I never considered Honsou to be one of the big boys of the iron warrior warsmiths. Certainly for an upstart he's done damn well against Toramino and Berossus, even with Ventris on "god mode" so to speak ruining his stuff. I think his imperial fists genes will be a bit of a glass ceiling for him within the legion elite, but I guess he wouldn't be too interested in being part of it. He seems to be more of a loner for the moment, having built a rag tag army for himself in the skull harvest. Looking forward to chapter's due.

(Heh, I'm derailing my own thread.)


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## Lord of the Night

Thats the reason that I like him. He is a Son of Dorn, the most hated enemies of the Iron Warriors. Its a miracle they didn't gut him when they learned what he was, and despite this he is now one of the most powerful Warsmiths alive, only ones more powerful are The Warsmith and Perturabo, who isn't doing anything anymore.


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## Tbirch

I think Honsou should kill Uriel. I mean, I kind of like them both, no matter how impropable Uriel is (might've gotten a miniature version of that one engine from Hitchhikers Guide somewhere hidden.. the bastard). But in the end.. 

When they fight again, if it will be 1 vs 1, then they both would die and the chaos gods would resurrect Honsou. 

Or, the Newborn will fight Uriel and so on.

One thing tho.. I'm kind of worried about the Newborn. Just hope he will never turn away from chaos, not even for a second. There's no good coming out of trying to redeem him. No matter whose clone it is.


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## Lord of the Night

I think that The Newborn will be redeemed at the last moments before he dies, realizing his true legacy as an Ultramarine. Honsou and Cadaras Grendel will escape Ultramar though, those two are a good pair and aren't about to die any time soon. Wish I could have said the same about Onyx .


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## vipertaja

Lord of the Night said:


> Thats the reason that I like him. He is a Son of Dorn, the most hated enemies of the Iron Warriors. Its a miracle they didn't gut him when they learned what he was, and despite this he is now one of the most powerful Warsmiths alive, only ones more powerful are The Warsmith and Perturabo, who isn't doing anything anymore.


Well I don't know...there are big bad's like Ferrous Ironclaw, second grand company warsmith, in the legion.
(even though there's not much written about him...and I know he's the warsmith of one of the game designers, but I can't remember who)


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## World Eater XII

Who was the guy who mentored uriel? he was pretty smooth running!


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## dobbins

Ventris is a dick because he is everything Honsou is not.


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## ckcrawford

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In fact he is a strong example of why some many people dislike the Ultramarines, that whole winning against impossible odds thing!
> 
> He turns up on Medrengard, a world which has been fortified by the Iron Warriors without being hindered by the laws of physics, this is literally the perfect fortress. And basically screws with Honsou... seriously?!
> 
> And thats aside from the fact this is in the Eye of Terror - and he would have probably gone insane fairly quickly.


Agreed, I was pretty pissed off when Honsou's plans got destroyed over that bullshit. Thats pretty much the reason why people would dislike like Uriel. You can't compare him to Honsou, see that shits crazy.

I think the ultrasmurff was pretty much used as a pawn by the chaos gods to get the Iron Warriors to do more for them than just sitting on their home world and building their lego fortresses . The Iron Warriors are possibly the one legion to do little or nothing for the satisfaction of the Chaos Gods. They sold their souls to chaos, but chaos wants more. The Iron Warriors are happy sitting on their homeworld fortifying and using their chaos mutations to make them more powerful. If any legion has gained more from benefit than loss it would be the Iron Warriors.


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## Baltar

The Iron Warriors are awesome.

That is all.


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## ElTanko

I have no problem with Ventris, he is one of those "Against all odds" Marines, who never dies!! But thats how he was written, to be the main man and live forever. Badass IMO

ElTanko


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## Khorne's Fist

I'm no fan of the smurfs, far from it, but I have to say I like him. He isn't afraid to do his own thing despite the smurf fanatacism to the codex. 

As to his deeds being over the top, he is a SM captain, one of the most lethal and intelligent warriors in the galaxy. They are supposed to do things like this on a regular basis, all before breakfast. 

The fact he let the mutants survive, especially mutated marines, really didn't ring through with regard to marine puritanical beliefs, but what the hell, nothing wrong with a bit of humanity in one of humanity's greatest defenders.


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## Boc

I don't like him (or the Ultramarines) for a number of reasons:
1. Uriel is a tool, pure and simple.
2. Any self respecting Space Marine, even if stranded, wouldn't cooperate with mutants...
3. The Ultramarines are the default choice, the status quo. I applaud anyone that thinks outside of the box and actually picks a more unique choice.


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## cafel

Eh I like him well enough. I don't think his deeds are over the top or unbelievable when compared to the vast majority of Black Library books. Really when compared with other series Ventris's exploits are a little mundane.

On Space Marines cooperating with mutants, I seem to recall that he wasn't really a Space Marine for most intents and purposes at the time. Probably had something to do with the streak in his character that could see him cooperating with mutants or using other non-codex sanctioned tactics when he believed it was for the good of the Imperium.


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## vipertaja

I can imagine Ventris coopertaing with the mutants. If you're on freaking Medrengard and you're not on the guest list then you take any and all help you can get. After Medrengard is another thing...haven't read the other Ventris books.

Then there's the whole loyalty to the emperor thing with them too...I suppose.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

cafel said:


> Eh I like him well enough. I don't think his deeds are over the top or unbelievable when compared to the vast majority of Black Library books. Really when compared with other series Ventris's exploits are a little mundane.


Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!) :biggrin:


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## cafel

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!) :biggrin:


Anything with Ciaphus Cain, towering over Ventris by not only doing things on a larger scale, but practically single handed, though I don't hold it against him. Anything involving Mkoll and Mkvenner from Gaunt's Ghosts (not really on the same scale, but when the fact that they're human is taken into account it's a much bigger jump then a veteran space marine captain.) Cherubael in the Eisenhorn series, though he is the villian, so I don't know if that counts. I could probably think of a few more with some rereading, but these are from my three favourite Black Library series and each element stands out as topping Ventris.

Though to be fair I've only read the novel's in the Ultramarines Omnibus so maybe there's something damning I'm missing in the later novels. Still, in what I've read Ventris has certainly survived very dangerous events, where a normal space marine captain might not, but he's the main character, so it's to be expected when he's faced with a problem that isn't quite winnable from a lore prespecitve he isn't just pulped, that would put an end to most Black Library series. 

I don't think he just has blatant plot armor either (Spoilers, obviously). In Nightbringer the only out of the usual situtaion for a space marine to face would be encountering the Nightbringer. He doesn't exactly win this encounter (made the wrong choice if you ask me, should have brought the roof down on everyones head) and he's facing the Nightbringer at it's most vunerable state. Warriors of Ultramar never puts him in a situation that's all that unusual for a space marine captain. Dead Sky, Black Sun has, I think, the largest amount of plot armor, but it does take place while the enemy's occupied with a large army on it's front step, and most of the heavy lifting is done by a demonic entity.

I'm not saying Ventris has to be your favourite character (he certainly isn't mine), or that you even have to like him. Just if you don't like him, don't try to make it out as if Graham McNeil is the worst Black Library author when that spot is deserved so richly by another.


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## The Son of Horus

The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human. Uriel doesn't have the personality that lines up with what an Ultramarines Captain would be. He's too free-thinking, and willing to deviate from the Codex. 

Space Marines, and particularly those from Codex Chapters that adhere strictly to the Codex, are noted as being almost obsessive in their duties. They're not necessarily capable of having the kind of complex relationships with their peers that Pasanius and Uriel display, much less the relationships that are displayed with humans. 

Are the Uriel Ventris novels good reads? You bet. They're fun, even if the characters leave something to be desired. I read "Dead Sky, Black Sun" in one sitting just because I was so into it. It really is only in hindsight that I realize how cliche and unbelievable the characters are. As messed up as it sounds, Honsou is the most believable character in that book, purely because there's a complex reason for why he's as bitter and screwed in the head as he is. He's not just a walking cliche, although he's hardly what you'd expect of an Iron Warrior warsmith.


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## vipertaja

The Son of Horus said:


> The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human. Uriel doesn't have the personality that lines up with what an Ultramarines Captain would be. He's too free-thinking, and willing to deviate from the Codex.
> 
> Space Marines, and particularly those from Codex Chapters that adhere strictly to the Codex, are noted as being almost obsessive in their duties. They're not necessarily capable of having the kind of complex relationships with their peers that Pasanius and Uriel display, much less the relationships that are displayed with humans.
> 
> Are the Uriel Ventris novels good reads? You bet. They're fun, even if the characters leave something to be desired. I read "Dead Sky, Black Sun" in one sitting just because I was so into it. It really is only in hindsight that I realize how cliche and unbelievable the characters are. As messed up as it sounds, Honsou is the most believable character in that book, purely because there's a complex reason for why he's as bitter and screwed in the head as he is. He's not just a walking cliche, although he's hardly what you'd expect of an Iron Warrior warsmith.


Definitely this. Indeed if there is a defining attitude trait about the ultramarines it's that they will not deviate from the codex...and may even complain about other chapters who don't sleep with it like they do. Even Guilliman himself was like that, being a jerk to people who didn't like his own book.

I don't say this as an ultramarine hater...I like them, I think it gives them character...it's who they are.


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## Serrated Man

cafel said:


> Cherubael in the Eisenhorn series, though he is the villian, so I don't know if that counts.


Well Cherubael is the bad guy like you mentioned and hes also a Daemon Prince. :mrgreen: 



The Son of Horus said:


> The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human.


My thoughts exactly. Although im not qualified to judge the overall series but this was a problem for me in Nightbringer. (only ultrabook I have read)


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## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!) :biggrin:


The Bloodquest series in Warhammer monthly. The exiled BAs actually ended up vieing for control of a chaos warband IIRC, while they were still loyal.


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## Lord of the Night

Uriel Ventris isn't the normal Ultramarine captain, he is the ideal one. He follows the Codex like an Ultramarine should but knows when he needs to consider it guidelines. The Ultramarines learned a harsh lesson at Macragge during the First Tyrannic War, sometimes the Codex is useless. And yet not many of them have taken it to heart.


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## vipertaja

Khorne's Fist said:


> The Bloodquest series in Warhammer monthly. The exiled BAs actually ended up vieing for control of a chaos warband IIRC, while they were still loyal.


No...no they didn't. What are you talking about?


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## World Eater XII

Wikipedia to the rescue? i think the daftest thing i read was in a abnett book were 5marines killed like a thousand DE, im sure it was brothers of the snake!


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## Baltar

The worst is Gaunt killing whole squads of Khorne beserkers that are attacking a bunch of basilisks.

Fact of the matter is that Abnett is a total and utter douche nozzle, and Gaunt would get completely fucked by just one Khorne beserker - never mind billions.

Khorne beserker - thousands of years old genetically modified superhuman elite fighting warrior, with aggression enhanced by the forces of chaos. Ultra elite armour and weaponry. Thousands of years of combat experience across thousands of worlds, against throusands of enemies.

Gaunt - a taller than average commisor with decent weaponry and barely any armour to speak of. A few years of combat experience.

He. Would. Get. Fucked. Up. I. Don't. Care. What. That. Fool. Abnett. Thinks. He. Is. Doing. To. 40k.


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## cafel

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The worst is Gaunt killing whole squads of Khorne beserkers that are attacking a bunch of basilisks.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that Abnett is a total and utter douche nozzle, and Gaunt would get completely fucked by just one Khorne beserker - never mind billions.
> 
> Khorne beserker - thousands of years old genetically modified superhuman elite fighting warrior, with aggression enhanced by the forces of chaos. Ultra elite armour and weaponry. Thousands of years of combat experience across thousands of worlds, against throusands of enemies.
> 
> Gaunt - a taller than average commisor with decent weaponry and barely any armour to speak of. A few years of combat experience.
> 
> He. Would. Get. Fucked. Up. I. Don't. Care. What. That. Fool. Abnett. Thinks. He. Is. Doing. To. 40k.


This must be in a novel or short story I missed, because I completely don't remember this. It suprises me since Abnett put Eisenhorn, who I think is a better fighter then Gaunt, up against a single chaos space marine and has him winning only due to the interference of a chaos relic and Eisenhorn's survival is considered miraculous.


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## Baltar

I only read a couple of the Ghost's books before giving it away, as it was that poor.

Too much beast purely for a commisar. How an author can expect one commisar to run around killing everything in creation that is way harder than he is, and for it not to be thought of as ridiculous, I don't know.

Still see millions foaming about the mouth over the books though.


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## Baron Spikey

It's alright Real is just making one his highly inaccurate, sweeping statements again.

A single squad of Khorne Berzerkers are taken out by the Ghosts from Ambush with the help of the pintle-mounted weapons from the artilley company.


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## Baltar

You SAY it like that, which is what happens, but if you actually read the wording in the book, Gaunt kills his fair share.

Which is ridiculous in itself. As he'd get totally owned.

PS: there is an easy solution to that speculation. Set up a game board with a line of 10 basiliks on it, and the squad of gaunt's ghosts around one of the middle tanks, and then let a squad of 10 Beserkers charge them (as in the novel). Have a couple of rounds of combat.

I don't think that it's inaccurate to say that Gaunt, along with his ghosts, would get utterly and completely smashed to shit.

As should be - shitty character.


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## Baron Spikey

The way you say it suggests that he meets them 1-on-1 in the arena when really he's using the confusion of the situation to close in with chain sword to despatch already wounded Berserkers.


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## Baltar

Ok, let's broaden the argument very slightly.

Are you honestly going to sit and argue that Abnett doesn't really beast out (make super hard) his main characters? Really?

If there is two things Abnett likes to do, furiously, it's make his main character stupidly too hard, and kill off as many characters as possible before the book ends.


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## gen.ahab

I read it along time ago so my memory is slightly fuzzy but it seemed reasonable to me. Even the best of soldiers can be caught off guard and killed. Surprise counts for a lot in combat. 

But on topic, I personaly like Ventris. He seems more human than most space marines you read about which makes him easier to relate to. Also he can adapt and function outside the bounds of the codex unlike most blueboyz.


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## cafel

Baron Spikey said:


> It's alright Real is just making one his highly inaccurate, sweeping statements again.
> 
> A single squad of Khorne Berzerkers are taken out by the Ghosts from Ambush with the help of the pintle-mounted weapons from the artilley company.


Ah, that makes much more sense. Which novel or story is this from, by the way? It sounds interesting.


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## vipertaja

gen.ahab said:


> I read it along time ago so my memory is slightly fuzzy but it seemed reasonable to me. Even the best of soldiers can be caught off guard and killed. Surprise counts for a lot in combat.
> 
> But on topic, I personaly like Ventris. He seems more human than most space marines you read about which makes him easier to relate to. Also he can adapt and function outside the bounds of the codex unlike most blueboyz.


To be honest I'm tired of having a character there just so I can "relate" to them. This is worst in movie tradition in my opinion, but also applies a bit in 40k, which is not star trek. The funny thing is that usually i CAN'T relate to them anyway, and they just end up a bit soft and fluffy. Usually not done well (in entertainment overall, not just black library). Of course I know there is use for it as well, though.

Should be noted I tend to keep to reading about space marines in BL novels. Guardsmen are 
easier to have relatable I imagine...I just find them less interesting.

Not to say Ventris is a particularly strong example, but I'd rather have people with sharply different ideologies. I can't relate to a giant bastard in power armour who commits genocide on regular basis anyway. Why would I want him to be "just like me" or whatnot? Then again I tend to be more interested in the mind workings of villains...this may have ended up looking more rantish than I intended.I tend to like the main characters I read about somewhat anyway.

EDIT: I should stop editing now...


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## gen.ahab

Because it seems more human, which they are. I want them to have some human quities rather than large alien monsters. It makes them more interesting. Lol


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## Baltar

No. I disagree.

I like the HH series of books so much because they go out of their way to highlight the fact that space marines are NOT AT ALL human in any way. They literally describe, at every opportunity, everything that makes them as far from human as possible.

One reason I hate ventris is that he gives something a human reader to relate to - there is NOTHING for a human to relate to with a space marine (or there shouldn't be), other than that they are on the same side.

Read the HH series.

A space marine has NOTHING in common with a human. Nothing. They are NOT at all human in any way.

They are a 100% killing machine. Ventris is a pussy in a blue costume. Not a space marine.

Read the bloodquest series, as someone already pointed out. Read about some marines in red armour, for a change. They are described in a much better fashion, by an author that isn't up his own ass so far that he thinks that he is allowed to describe any character in any way that he sees fit, no matter how out of character it actually is.

Ventris should not be seen as having anything at all in common with a human, other than that they are on the same team. He is a space marine. It is humanoid - and that is where the similarity ends. He kills eveything he sees.

Unfortunately, Abnett, the total douchebag, describes him as some caring asshole.

Mainly because Abnett wants to sell books, and not tell a good story about a space marine.


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## gen.ahab

I read the vast majority of the books and in most they act distinctly human. Even though fanboyism may say that SMs are in no way human and are nothing more than superhuman killing machines there is a part of that title that rings a bell.... Hmmm maybe the word.... Oh say HUMAN! And you realize that Graham McNeill wrote the ultramarines book right? Lmao


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## ckcrawford

I've never read the book, but if you could quote it, it would help either side of the argument.

Face to face, regardless of confussion, a world eater would rape gaunt. Plain and simple. It would be really hard to confuse a squad of world eaters to because they are blood thirsty, mad, fearless marines. I don't think bezerkers understand what it is to be confussed. I picture bezerkers as just finding a target and releasing all anger and hate with blood lust. At this point I don't think they are worried about bullets flying around or anything else.

"Face to face, regardless of confussion, a world eater would rape gaunt." I am quoting myself because apparently he is... haha. He took his morning cup of bezerker killing steroids.:laugh:

By the way I wouldn't say space marines are humans.... and they aren't at all. There phsychology revolves around constant warfare. There biology even reflect this. Not human at all!


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## cafel

While there are many loyal chapters that lack any compassion what so ever and are pretty much completely inhuman the Ultramarines have never been one of them. And I think that's the way it should be. Each chapter should vary to a significant degree. Where's the Blood Angels or Black Templar wouldn't give a shit about how their tactics affected the local population the Salamanders or Ultramarines would, because the chapters have very different doctrine and values.

And while the main character doesn't have to be more human or less human, but they should be little unique, which Ventris is. He's rather compassionate for an Ultamarine and he has a tendency to diviate from the codex if he deems it neccassery. His battle brothers give him shit over it, it cause inner turmoil and makes for a more intresting character. Graham Mcneil said that he liked Ventris because he had enough understanding of humanity to ponder the choice he had made to leave it, and frankly I agree.

Also vipertaja, which Imperial Guardsmen stories have you read?


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## Baron Spikey

I don't agree with the bullshit that Space Marines can't have human characterisitics or personalities, they may have had the capacity to feel true fear taken from them but they still have the rest of their humanity left to them (however dulled that is by the absence of such an important emotion).

As Loken discusses in Horus Rising, he's a weapon and feels neither remorse nor pity when unleashed in battle but out of battle he has an interest in historical fiction and enjoys close friendships with a number of fellow Astartes and one or two humans.

The simple idiocy of saying Dan Abnett doesn't want to write good stories he just wants to sell books astounds me- how would he be able to continue selling so many books if his stories weren't great?


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## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> I don't agree with the bullshit that Space Marines can't have human characterisitics or personalities, they may have had the capacity to feel true fear taken from them but they still have the rest of their humanity left to them (however dulled that is by the absence of such an important emotion).
> 
> As Loken discusses in Horus Rising, he's a weapon and feels neither remorse nor pity when unleashed in battle but out of battle he has an interest in historical fiction and enjoys close friendships with a number of fellow Astartes and one or two humans.
> 
> The simple idiocy of saying Dan Abnett doesn't want to write good stories he just wants to sell books astounds me- how would he be able to continue selling so many books if his stories weren't great?


Whole heartedly agree with you! The idea that space marines have no defining human characteristics is complete and utter horseshit. I also agree with you about the writings of Mr. Abnett, I feel that he creates interesting and colorful characters that enriches the universe and makes for a rather enjoyable read.
EDIT: The latter half of that was not intended to sound like a sales pitch. lol


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## RudeAwakening79

The Real Sanguinius said:


> No. I disagree.
> 
> Unfortunately, Abnett, the total douchebag, describes him as some caring asshole.
> 
> Mainly because Abnett wants to sell books, and not tell a good story about a space marine.


Get your facts straight. The Ultramarines stories about Uriel Ventris are written by *Mr Graham McNeill* and NOT Mr Dan Abnett.

The HH stories you liked so much; some are written by Mr Dan Abnett. (Horus Rising, Legion).

On topic:
I like Uriel Ventris, he is a killing-machine that sometimes thinks things over...what's wrong with that? His former captain Idaeus lauded his "out-of-the-box"-thinking, which is pretty unusual for an Ultramarine.


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## World Eater XII

I only felt that his random mutant loving was the only bizarre bit.


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## vipertaja

Hmm...seems "real sanguinius" got a liiitle carried away there. Aside from being able to relate to space marines or not, they are rather human. The Horus heresy is all about that, really. My comments were more about the fact that "relatable characters" tend to have almost our sensibilities about things...and they shouldn't too much, being space marines in a place like 40k. Space marines live in a grim and cruel universe, not a globalised american culture like we do, but sometimes they cross over just a tad too much IMO.

Humanity however is what makes the fall of the traitor legions interesting, because of motives and intentions. A dramatic tragedy where the "villains" feel their hands are forced to betray the imperium. And some of them are.



cafel said:


> While there are many loyal chapters that lack any compassion what so ever and are pretty much completely inhuman the Ultramarines have never been one of them. And I think that's the way it should be. Each chapter should vary to a significant degree. Where's the Blood Angels or Black Templar wouldn't give a shit about how their tactics affected the local population the Salamanders or Ultramarines would, because the chapters have very different doctrine and values.
> 
> And while the main character doesn't have to be more human or less human, but they should be little unique, which Ventris is. He's rather compassionate for an Ultamarine and he has a tendency to diviate from the codex if he deems it neccassery. His battle brothers give him shit over it, it cause inner turmoil and makes for a more intresting character. Graham Mcneil said that he liked Ventris because he had enough understanding of humanity to ponder the choice he had made to leave it, and frankly I agree.
> 
> Also vipertaja, which Imperial Guardsmen stories have you read?


Interesting way to put it and a rather good defence for poor Ventris.

Where do you get the impressioin that blood angels don't have some form of empathy? Is this from "real sanguinius's" comment earlier? Ironically enough sanguinius in particular seemed quite compassionate in the Horus heresy books as I recall. (granted the horus heresy presents a more sensible imperium that is merely a totalitarian secular dictatorship at that point.) Dante too seems to have a streak of compassion from all I've seen, though of course in battle blood angels get rather brutal. After all Dante is a very popular leader in the imperium thanks to his respect for his colleagues and allies in the armageddon wars.

As for other primarchs...Guilliman is portrayed as a jerk who likes his own book and wants everyone to follow it. I think it gives him and his legion character.

As for guardsmen novels...well I read through the first gaunts ghosts novel.
Thing is I have a long list of books to read and IG is basically modern day or historical grunts in space and don't interest me as much. Not to say I might not read more, (it was a decent novel) but they are way down on the list. They are easier to make relatable if one wants that, because they are for all intents and purpouses the common soldier used in the real world and a dime a dozen fictional worlds. Matter of one's tastes, really. Still need to be that tad adjusted for the 40k mentality, of course.


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## joechip

World Eater XII said:


> Wikipedia to the rescue? i think the daftest thing i read was in a abnett book were 5marines killed like a thousand DE, im sure it was brothers of the snake!


Yeah, that was in Brothers of the Snake. One squad of marines and a librarian killed so many Dark Eldar there was a literal river of their blood. The main marine dropped his helmet and the DE's blood washed it down the street :shok:

That might be crazier than anything Uriel's done. :grin:


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## vipertaja

joechip said:


> Yeah, that was in Brothers of the Snake. One squad of marines and a librarian killed so many Dark Eldar there was a literal river of their blood. The main marine dropped his helmet and the DE's blood washed it down the street :shok:
> 
> That might be crazier than anything Uriel's done. :grin:


That does sound rather incredible. Usually only Daemon worlds of Khorne have rivers of actual blood.

Even if an army of world eaters killed a large crowd they'd at most just be able to colour the ground red with it...


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## gen.ahab

Sounds like a fun time. lol:shok:


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## vipertaja

I would understand if they were fighting in shallow water and killed enough dark eldar to colour it red, though. Would be quite a feat, but not as far fetched.


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## Khorne's Fist

vipertaja said:


> I would understand if they were fighting in shallow water and killed enough dark eldar to colour it red, though. Would be quite a feat, but not as far fetched.


You're discussing the matter of bioengineered superhuman warriors in a couple of tons of power armour killing a horde of depraived aliens on a distant planet 30,000 years in the future. All based on a game of little plastic space men.

_Far fetched_ doesn't really come into it.


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## Boc

Khorne's Fist said:


> You're discussing the matter of bioengineered superhuman warriors in a couple of tons of power armour killing a horde of depraived aliens on a distant planet 30,000 years in the future. All based on a game of little plastic space men.
> 
> _Far fetched_ doesn't really come into it.


Classic haha.


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## vipertaja

Khorne's Fist said:


> You're discussing the matter of bioengineered superhuman warriors in a couple of tons of power armour killing a horde of depraived aliens on a distant planet 30,000 years in the future. All based on a game of little plastic space men.
> 
> _Far fetched_ doesn't really come into it.


Yeah ha ha ha so nothing matters at all. I don't think your cliche answer is that 
good in this particular case. Scifi is scifi, but killing so many aliens that their 
blood floats your helmet downhill(?) is just stupid, except maybe as told in 
exaggerated legends. That dark eldar fleet must have been like a million strong 
all in one place and even then it would be more like a swamp of bodies than a 
river of blood. Suspension of disbelief is sort of clogging up for me on this one.


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## Khorne's Fist

You take this shit far too seriously. To be into this hobby you don't just suspend your disbelief, you shoot it in the head, chop up it's body and feed it to pigs. Lighten up.


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## vipertaja

Khorne's Fist said:


> You take this shit far too seriously. To be into this hobby you don't just suspend your disbelief, you shoot it in the head, chop up it's body and feed it to pigs. Lighten up.


Sorry...it's just that someone always brings that annoying answer to the table 
and this time it was you. If one is in some certain mood it can seem a bit 
flippant and belittling, though isn't meant to be. I think it's more appropriate 
when someone is nitpicking physics of 40k or whatever. I'm all for 40k humour 
and all, but that answer is a pet peeve of mine. :grin:

It just seems so ridiculous imagining a space marine drop his helmet and it sails 
away on an ocean of blood, ok? Not that I've read the story myself though.


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## tomcatgunner

*For Macragge!*

ok buit hereis my strike agaist it being implausible. in those situationswhere you could win by goingagaist the codex to get te job done (like many famous SMs do) you call it implausible! what uriel has done is nothing out of the ordinary considering the space marines were created for the single purpose to win against all odds! lets see has anyone when daemon hammer? or any book of the gaunts ghost series? the whole victory at the worst odds is the reason we read these books! so quit your whining! dont like him then dont buy the books!


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## Mossy Toes

I don't _hate_ Ventris, but nor do I like him. He's too well-rounded and humane for my tastes, and I probably won't be getting the second Ultramarines Omnibus when BL releases it. AD-B's _Helsreach_ shows a Space Marine character like it should be--slightly autistic, almost.

And as an aside, I believe that Abnett purposefully said that he wrote _Brothers of the Snake_ with intentionally heroic, oral-legend styled prose that is hyperbole-infused and meant for viewing Space Marines with awe. Sooo...DE players, don't get your (spiked) panties in a bunch. You can feel free to interpret that particular short story as largely hyperbole and over-blown out of proportion as to just how many DE died.


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## Roninman

After reading first three Uriel books, i kinda liked him. Then came killing ground which softened him little too much and didnt have such a great story. After that Courage & Honour which was even worst than earlier novel. 

Finally Chapter's due. Featuring some of my favourite men of Chaos. What an AWFUL book it was. I think i had to put book down for weeks and finally after struggling with this book for months got to finish it. Graham tried to put too much into one book, it was rushed and some things really laughable. Worst book from him so far, not Honsou and even his allies could have saved this.

Uriel the invincible has survived encounter with Necron Lords, been inside hive ship, charging ass-naked towards traitor marines firing at him point-blank range with bolters which actually hit him, survived headshot of bolter round and i bet more will come. He is too human too as others have said, he makes more harm to Ultramarines and is part of reason why people hate him.

Always thinked Ultramarines are really like total machines when it comes to codex execution, but then again we have to read about YET another marine who thinks almost like normal human. I think they should write them as total machines of destruction which makes reader actually hate them. They are badass yes, but they certainly not are good guys from normal citizens point of view. They would kill you if you get into way of their objective and collateral damage would be acceptable. But Uriel would propably just hug you.


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## GrimzagGorwazza

I don't know what it is about space marine characters in general. I just find them really bland and boring. That's no mean feat when we're talking about a superhuman killing machine with an automatic granade launcher and more or less tank armour strapped to their body. I've had the same problem with the ultramarine omnibus and the grey knights omnibus. In the end i tried reading the HH novels cause i figured Dan Abnett wouldn't let me down, and was still unimpressed. The only ecception i've found is the space wolves omnibus.

I think the problem is lack of character flaws, each one of these characters is perfect with the exception to ragnar in the SW books. They are the steriotypical knight in shining armour, but where a modern day knight in most books or films might have a tarnished past that haunts him or a personal struggle that needs to be overcome alongside their main mission, none of the space marines in the books i just mentioned seem to have this lurking personal darkness. To me that makes the difference between wether character feels like









or


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## AK74Bob

I'm a fan of Ventris, but the first 3 novels were way better than the recent ones.

Some what OT, I know they call Honsou the "half breed" or something, but is he actually an imperial fist that turned traitor?


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## Deadeye776

I never hated Uriel Ventris. To me he always seemed like the John McClane of Space Marines. I hated to Ultramarins because Roboute Gulliman is a complete douchbag and an usurper. Everyone knows he was doing exactly what Lionel Johnson has been accused of for years.At the least he wanted to be the new warmaster and at best he thought he would be heir to the throne if the Emperor got waxed. The Ultramarines were the biggest chapter and the fence sat the seige to see who won,and then manuevered their sizeable forces all around the battle waried forces to make himself the new king of Terra.The best thing that ever happened to the Imperium was Fulgrim taking his ass out. What goes around comes around.He's an asshole and because the ultramarines are his legion they get his rep. buy association. Ventris is a good guy but they make him all humane so he's not your average Ultramarine.....someone you'd want to jettison in the warp.


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## Diatribe1974

I'm on book 6 of the "Adventures of Uriel Ventris & his Ultramarine Pals!"

Yeah, I like the character. Been a fun read so far.


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## Rezial

Preface: I have only finished Nightbringer and am moving on to Warriors of Ultramar. Some of the later examples many of you are discussing I haven't seen yet and perhaps my views could change later buuuuut....

Everyone has a right to their own likes and opinions. My own opinion is that Uriel Ventris is perhaps one of the greatest stand alone Space Marine characters yet written. His original appearance holds him as an underdog, innovator, idealist, and incredibly mentally tough warrior. In fact to me he embodies the over all ideal of the Ultramarines Chapter in many ways, while being a bit of a radical as well. This is because only in Ultramar is there any degree of a Utopian outlook on the grim dark future. Ultramar is a stable and prosperous realm which values its people to the last man. Uriel upholds this to his core. There's a jab at other Space Marine chapters in Nightbringer (specifically the Blood Angels) for forgetting that the Imperium is about Humanity and for their often brutal and uncaring practices of war which cause wanton and unnecessary collateral damage. Personally I think the Ultramarines are perhaps the greatest Chapter because of this fact. They do what they're supposed to, i.e. protect Humanity and destroy their enemies(let me stress that.... ENEMIES) in the name of the Emperor. Most other chapters usually fail in this task when you perceive it this way. Even Ario Barzano, an Inquisitor, holds human life in high regard, as he should. Life is the Emperor's currency but that does not mean it is to be squandered. Good is important. 

You can see the popularity of the idea behind Ventris carried over in the somewhat recent Space Marine game as his ideals are copied onto Captain Titus. My opinion on the way Ventris appears OP in later books is that he is the hero. The hero in most stories usually has achievements far beyond his seeming abilities. Also, why blame a character, who was created quite well. Blame Graham McNeil for losing his perspective on the character perhaps, just as you might blame George Lucas for ruining Star Wars in many ways.

For those that believe in the uncaring brutal nature of Space Marines as the rule, that's your choice. I say that they are supposed to be better than that and the ones that don't behave as Ventris does, or at least as he starts out, are failures in the eyes of the Emperor. As for the hatred of the Ultras as a whole, I think there are a few reasons. One is that GW has always made them the poster child SM army and so many fans got tired. Another is that many preferred other armies to begin with(I started with Dark Angels and still claim that as my main army), and so naturally prefer them and might be disgruntled at lack of coverage of their favorite. I suppose there are other reasons too but they would be purely based on personal ideology or opinion and not specific instances where the Ultramarines army did wrong by anyone. 

So, in summary, to me a loyalist Space Marine is supposed to be the greatest example of a White Knight. Even if he does not directly identify with those he protects he is honor bound to protect them and believes in and upholds this ideal. He fights for the weak and for those who cannot adequately fight for themselves. The converse is true of a Fallen/Chaos Space Marine who would fit a Black Knight archetype. If you feel that Uriel Ventris does not fit with the strong good alignment at his core then I would say re-read his story from the beginning and if it's just that you don't personally like this archetype, then read another story altogether. Uriel is a badass protector of Humanity, just as he should be.


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## Brobaddon

I'm gonna admit that I have no idea why people dislike Ventris, and yet, have no problem with Salamanders who are practically " human lovers. " They literally worship humans and value them as if they were their own battle brothers. So as for Ventries goes, he's still fine to me. A little bit too caring, yes, but I imagine that's all cause of Guiliman's influence. Afterall, Astartes do inherit qualities from their primarchs and way of thinking, especially when you're among the most successful primarchs in the great crusade, as well as your own mini Empire. Pride n shit. 

I agree that Ventris should have in no way been able to defeat a shard of Nightbringer, or survive on a freaking demon planet, but hey, he's the main protagonist.


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## Mossy Toes

The whole shtick of the Salamanders (besides the fire-ash-forge-fire fetish) is that they are the most humane chapter, after all--and while sure, an Ultramarine doesn't have to be a zealous, intolerant crusader like the Black Templars, I really think AD-B tapped into something with the "slightly autistic, out of sync with regular humans" view of space marines.

Additionally: Ventris was a chance to make the Ultramarines interesting, and was squandered. The magnum opus of the most brilliant tactical mind in the Imperium, a book tens of thousands of pages long, is (I imagine) going to teach you a whole lot more about warfare than it does tie you up to formulaic limitations. It's not going to be a book that forbids taking the initiative or attacking where your opponent doesn't expect/is weak.

The Ultramarines aren't supposed to be hidebound vanilla marines any more than Abaddon is supposed to be a laughable, mustache-twirling failure. Those are just memetic ideas bouncing around in the fanbase, not the They are exemplars of discipline and crisp tactical flexibility. The Second Founding was entirely based around the Ultramarine principles of the Chapter, and the majority of chapters are directly descended from their gene-seed. You may recoil to hear it*, but _Matt Ward was right_ when he said most chapters look up to the illustrious, pedigreed, honored Ultramarines.

And McNiell's Ultramarine books... are decent space marine stories, but I can't help but feel they don't do credit to that legacy or sense of grandeur. Have only read the first omnibus, true, but still...

*and I agree that last SM codex gave them too much of the spotlight


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## Brobaddon

> laughable, mustache-twirling failure


But, Abbadon doesn't have a stache o.o


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## Erik_Morkai

I have not read 100% of the replys but skimmed enough. Uriel is not a strict Codex adherant seems to have come up a few times. You must not forget, Uriel is former Deathwatch. This alone changes a Space Marine and radically changes their outlook. If you read Blood of Asaheim you can see how deep it can affect a space marine.

I have enjoyed the Ventris novels if some are pretty farfetched...even for space marines.


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